# Official Audio-gd Sparrow thread



## Drosera

I just came across Audio-gd's latest offering, the Sparrow.

 It's advertised as a portable unit, but... you need to plug it in the mains and it doesn't seem to have a battery. Curious that.
 Still, I'm already considering it as a simple DAC/Amp to use at work.


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## kunalraiker

It feels as Kingwa wants to kill the headphone amp/dac market


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## Ypoknons

I think portable is a translation nuance thing, their website tries and gets most of the information across but it can be improved. I mean, you're not going to pay them at their 'China Construction Band' account either now are you?


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## DarKu

Interesting...I just wonder why it doesnt use the newest Wolfson WM8741 instead of WM8740 ?
 Newer one have a wider dynamic range and better THD
 But this thing sure looks nice.


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## tim3320070

I sent a couple of emails to him a few months ago insisting that battery power is a must if he were to do a portable, he didn't feel it would sound good. This is not portable unless USB power can run it (don't think so). Why would someone buy this over a Fun for $100 more? Maybe Keebler elves?
 If this had a battery, I would absolutely buy it.


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## haloxt

Part of me was hoping this would have a battery so I could use it on the go 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 but something in me knew Kingwa liked ac so much he wouldn't do battery, at least for now. Then again it's quite rare for people to have portable transports. I was asked by Kingwa if I would test it for him and I said yes, but not sure if he forgot or ran out of them or the mailman took it for himself. If it does come though I'll let you guys know how it compares to old compass, dac19mk3, and phoenix, then send it to whoever Kingwa tells me to.


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## squall343

This is not really "portable"

 although it is smaller than his usual range but is significantly large from what i can see from the picture

 What he need to do is to make a real portable with a small footprint that offer great sound quality for a good price


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## ulyses

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tim3320070* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Why would someone buy this over a Fun for $100 more? Maybe Keebler elves?_

 

It looks like cheaper than fun with some lesser functions. Am I wrong?


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## Drosera

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *squall343* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This is not really "portable"

 although it is smaller than his usual range but is significantly large from what i can see from the picture

 What he need to do is to make a real portable with a small footprint that offer great sound quality for a good price_

 

This is probably Kingwa's compromise, the smallest he can go while still using ordinary discrete components and maintaining acceptable sound quality.
 Going even smaller would probably require SMT or using IC amplification and I don't think he's willing to do either.


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## tim3320070

I have a D10 and find it very useful for traveling with my laptop (music and movies sound great) and TV use in my bedroom (opt out from my Dish Network receiver). I was hoping for something similar but even better sounding from Kingwa.
 That said, this probably sounds very good for about $250 shipped and comparisons to the D10, Pico, etc. would be interesting.


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## moodyrn

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Drosera* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This is probably Kingwa's compromise, the smallest he can go while still using ordinary discrete components and maintaining acceptable sound quality.
 Going even smaller would probably require SMT or using IC amplification and I don't think he's willing to do either._

 

I understand this, but he should be more concerned with what the consumer wants. A portable amp is going to have some compromises over a full desktop, but it is portable. If I want the sound quality of a desktop, then I would purchase a desktop. If I want a portable, I want something I can take with me without having to plug it in the wall. I understand he has high standards for how his gear sounds (which is a good thing), but I would have no need for something like this unless space was very limited. Just my opinion though.


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## jp_zer0

Looks a LOT like the FUN. I can see it has a different transformer and just overall power supply. The diamond buffers are not modular either. Uses the exact same DAC and input modules I think. The ACSS modules are not the same. 

 Is the price confirmed?


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## AmanGeorge

Seems indeed to be more transportable than portable - might make a fun travel companion though.


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## TheWuss

dang it! if i hadn't already just bought a HiFiMAN EF2A, and a K.I.C.A.S. Caliente, i'd be all over this like a duck on a june bug!


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## spookygonk

The man must not sleep.


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## TheWuss

he's the leonardo davinci of audio. he can't go three months without upgrading, updating, discontinuing, introducing, etc. a new product.
 just like the great unfinished paintings of davinci, audio-gd moves on because kingwa is restless and gets bored. hehehe.


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## geek101

I wonder how version A compares to SQ against FUN version A.


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## Mad Max

For the love of-
 LAWL


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## IPodPJ

With USB = $225. Without USB = $125.
 Very reasonable.
 But without a battery it's pointless. He's got plenty of desktop amps already.
 DC done right will sound better than AC anyway.


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## moodyrn

agreed


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## Currawong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_With USB = $225. Without USB = $125._

 

Oh well, he only took a year or so to come up with the device at the price point we originally intended when we asked him about making what became the Compass. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I don't think the portable amp makers should be scared, just yet, unless he starts making SMD-based gear.


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## arcer63

I think a transporatble amp like this makes perfect sense, its perfect for people that can listen to music at work, and want something better than an actual portable. I think it looks downright gorgeous. And its discrete (looks wise, not speaking about the actual electronics) I'd buy it if I could use it.


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## haloxt

I remember someone saying he wanted to lug a compass back and forth between home and work. This product would've been more suitable 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.

 I won't be receiving the test sparrow this month, so no early impressions from me. My impressions may likely be inaccurate though because my brain must be mush and I don't have high impedance headphones. At the moment I'm slackjawed at the sound of my recently ereceived used cowon q5w mp3 player, even after so long of listening to neutral gear 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. Obviously I like colored sound signature.


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## tim3320070

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *arcer63* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think a transporatble amp like this makes perfect sense, its perfect for people that can listen to music at work, and want something better than an actual portable. I think it looks downright gorgeous. And its discrete (looks wise, not speaking about the actual electronics) I'd buy it if I could use it._

 

Only if it sounds considerably better than a D10 (or similar) which is truly portable and sounds great.
 Edit- Hey Kingwa, send me a Sparrow and I'll let you know how it compares


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## superchan

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_With USB = $225. Without USB = $125.
 Very reasonable.
 But without a battery it's pointless. He's got plenty of desktop amps already.
 DC done right will sound better than AC anyway._

 

RCA socket
 Version A Custom order plate 24K gold

 Basic Version Normal

 this small one can put next me on the nightstand.


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## dragonfyra

It's cheaper than a lot of good quality portable amps. Now I want one to keep at the office...


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## Currawong

He should offer one to HeadphoneAddict, as he has probably the most experience with portable and semi-portable amps.


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## Xan7hos

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *arcer63* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think a transporatble amp like this makes perfect sense, its perfect for people that can listen to music at work, and want something better than an actual portable. I think it looks downright gorgeous. And its discrete (looks wise, not speaking about the actual electronics) I'd buy it if I could use it._

 

I think this and maybe a ZuneHD with the dock (optical digital out) would make a killer bedside/office companion.


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## slowburn

first-time poster here. Am thinking of getting the audio-gd sparrow along with an akg k702 to listen to music from my PC. (I'm on a $500 budget sadly) I know no one may have tested the sparrow yet, but can anyone give me an idea of how the sparrow would compare specification-wise to a similarly-priced 2009 version of the fubar III ?


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## tim3320070

Well I admit to being a little biased towards AGD gear given my experience with them but I would be wildly shocked and amazed if the Fubar III sounded better than the Version A Sparrow (same price), even without the the tweaking advantage the Sparrow gives you.
 Just check what each provides in the way of componentry.


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## Eagle Eye

If it ran off battery I may be interested. Without it I am not.


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## littletree76

This is a transportable rather than portable, so there is no point of comparing apple with orange. I don't think any portable come with ACSS system built in and able to supply sufficient current to drive difficult headphones such as K701 and HD650 to their full potential ?

 I have sold all my portable headphone amplifiers except one and right now only invest in transportable/desktop headphone amplifiers. To me appropriate power supply is an essential component to any amplifiers for good sound reproduction, so I have to give up on battery-powered portable amplifiers. There are always compromises/trade-offs because of restricted space.

 I notice exchangeable modules used in Sparrow are similar to those used in FUN (I own one). Differences I have noticed include removal of line/DAC interfaces for pre-amplifier and external headphone amplifier as well as exchangeable output module. Though these features have been removed to reduce its size, I suppose sonic signature of Sparrow should be close to FUN. With a TRS-to-RCA adaptor (sold with Sparrow) connected to its only headphone output, Sparrow still can be used as dedicated DAC/pre-amplifier with buffered RCA outputs. Since Sparrow is much smaller and cheaper than FUN, perhaps it is a good choice for limited budget and installation space if it sound the same as FUN.


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## moonboy403

I would be interested in one if it has the option of RCA inputs as I would like to make use of my DAC at home.


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## tim3320070

Ask Kingwa- may not be enough room.


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## avocado

The website still says "coming soon." Any idea when they'll start shipping? I'm thinking about getting the Sparrow for my first amp, and the sooner the better


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## kunalraiker

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *avocado* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The website still says "coming soon." Any idea when they'll start shipping? I'm thinking about getting the Sparrow for my first amp, and the sooner the better 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

what would you use it for mate.


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## avocado

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kunalraiker* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_what would you use it for mate._

 

701s. I know that a more expensive amp is probably in order, but there's only so much I can spend right now (headphones were a graduation present)


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## kunalraiker

I feel it would be a nice idea to send a quick e-mail to Kingwa to check with him, he would be the best judge,I would advise taking his recommendation.


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## Currawong

For "full potential" it depends on who you ask. I tend to set the bar for the usual top-of-the-regular-range headphones at a mid-range amp. However, it's not as if the music is going to sound rotten if you plug K701s into something lowly, even an iPod. You tend not to get a lack of bass and a narrower soundstage, as if all the music is in the middle with everything mushed together. As you get better gear, the music sounds like it was recorded in a larger studio or venue and instruments/players sound more like individual entities. The main thing one benefits (hopefully) from going from onboard sound to dedicated audio gear is you lose the awful distortion and harshness.


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## Ypoknons

Right, it's not so much the fact you're getting horrifying sound under a 'underamped' 'phone as much as if you do run out of an iPod or similar, then why not get something more efficient? ESW10JPN and (from hearsay) the HF2 are great, very sensitive headphones... 

 Getting an budget DAC/amp like the Sparrow or Audinst isn't necessarily a bad idea either, I know that from using the Icon with headphones for quite a while. It avoids some of them problems with portables and laptops, the amplifier is going to be a bit better and if it's well designed, escapes the inference and power limitations of chips inside computers and other mobile devices. Especially if you are poor, low on space (e.g. a dorm you switch every few months) and have efficient headphones. But for me it's not in any way a replacement for a big rig.


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## avocado

Exactly, that's what I figure. I already own the ESW9 and love it, the K701 is something a bit nicer to add to my (admittedly poor) lineup --> firm believer in different tools for different jobs. Since I'll probably be doing a lot of moving over the next year or so (different cities, different countries, etc) it probably isn't a great idea to get something too prone to breakage or irreplaceable. 

 That said, _not_ being amped is out of the question.


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## movi

curious how big of a step up in sound quality exists between Sparrow and FUN. i have been thinking of buying a FUN to properly drive my HD-650's. how well do you think the Sparrow would do this job compared to the FUN, or to my existing amp, a CORDA Move?


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## tim3320070

Kingwa uses a stable of headphones to "mate" his designs to (or at least that's what he states on the website), K701 being one of those shown on the Sparrow page.


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## les_garten

Just found this thread. This is a pretty neat "small footprint" Dac/AMP. I have a small over bed Hospital table that has my laptop on it. I have been trying to figure out how to get a FUN or Compass bolted to the underside. The footprint of those beasties is BIG. This looks ideal. I could get one of these on the top of the table. And a trivial job to put it under the table. As usual another sharp product from a guy who never rests!

 Curra, this is what you were looking for originally as a Zero replacement before that project bloomed.


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## tennisplyr3

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *movi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_curious how big of a step up in sound quality exists between Sparrow and FUN. i have been thinking of buying a FUN to properly drive my HD-650's. how well do you think the Sparrow would do this job compared to the FUN, or to my existing amp, a CORDA Move?_

 

x2

 I'm curious about this as well.


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## numbskull

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tennisplyr3* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_x2

 I'm curious about this as well._

 

x3 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I am probably getting the sparrow over the maverick to drive my incoming AKG 702. May not be the best, but i guess it will have enough juice to drive it.


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## TigzStudio

So it looks like you can now order it off his site, who is the first guinea pig?


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## numbskull

Here, a reply from Kingwa:

 "The FUN sound level is same with Sparrow, and the output specs is same. So no problems to drive K702 IMO.
 The different is the FUN has many functions."


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## Mad Max

Fascinating. The Sparrow is a mini-FUN.


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## les_garten

Great Taste! Less Filling!


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## spookygonk

That's very promising news. This could be my ideal PC amp (and my second setup).


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## avocado

Is there any real difference between the BNC and USB inputs (other than the obvious)? I'm new to the amping world and curious about the price difference between the two basic models. I'm assuming that to go from a laptop -> BNC requires some special cable that isn't readily available...


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## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *avocado* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is there any real difference between the BNC and USB inputs (other than the obvious)? I'm new to the amping world and curious about the price difference between the two basic models. I'm assuming that to go from a laptop -> BNC requires some special cable that isn't readily available..._

 


 BNC from a Laptop would require an Express card Sound Card that did BNC or a USB to BNC adapter, and that would be kinda goofy IMO. I would avoid USB unless it were your only option. My preference would be SPDIF(optical) if you Laptop does that, then USB or Express Card Sound Card that does BNC or SPDIF out. USB Bus's on Laptops often have trouble because the Keyboard, mouse, trackpad, etc may be on the same bus. Sometimes you will notice that a HD performs much better on one USB port versus another. This is because of Port contention issues on the bus. This is well documented on MACBooks in particular.

 Here's an example of an Express Card SC that does SPDIF IN/OUT

Sound Blaster X-Fi Audio Coming to Notebooks

 Which Laptop?


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## avocado

I have an aging Macbook (2006, first generation) that will hopefully be replaced by a newer Macbook in the next year or so.

 Most of what you just said flew a little bit over my head, which is worrisome...whatever happened to simple plug-and-play, haha.. I just don't to finally pick an amp just to have no clue what's going on with it.


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## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *avocado* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have an aging Macbook (2006, first generation) that will hopefully be replaced by a newer Macbook in the next year or so.

 Most of what you just said flew a little bit over my head, which is worrisome...whatever happened to simple plug-and-play, haha.. I just don't to finally pick an amp just to have no clue what's going on with it._

 

Now that's Funny! I just sold one of those on Ebay yesterday! You're in Luck. Your headphone Jack doubles as Optical SPDIF out. You would need a cable like this:

For only $1.81 each when QTY 50+ purchased - Toslink to Mini M/M OD:5.0mm, Molded Type - 3ft | Toslink to Mini Plug

 That type cable will hook up you Mac to the Optical Toslink port on the DAC

 I'm assuming you meant MacBook Pro? The MacBook, I'm not sure.


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## les_garten

Here's specs on a 2006 MACBOOK, it does optical IN/OUT as well:

MacBook (Late 2006) - Technical Specifications


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## Crazy*Carl

I predict this unit is going to become super popular over the next year. audio gd... 150 bucks...


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## Crazy*Carl

Quote: 





numbskull said:


> Here, a reply from Kingwa:
> 
> "The FUN sound level is same with Sparrow, and the output specs is same. So no problems to drive K702 IMO.
> The different is the FUN has many functions."


 
  This makes sense, as so many of the components are similar.


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## spookygonk

^^ What's up with my avatar, I don't own any Grados? <<< reason
  
  Quote: 





crazy*carl said:


> I predict this unit is going to become super popular over the next year. audio gd... 150 bucks...


 

 Indeed, but which combination is going to be the best bang for the buck (ie which DIR & D/A modules to choose)?


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## Crazy*Carl

If you just want a end game unit, then the sparrow for sure.  If you want to upgrade int he future, the FUN is better choice I would think.  Contrary to the title of this thread, I don't think the sparrow was ever designed to be portable.  All the website says about is it is "mini".  The primary purpose of it was to offer a cheaper version of the fun with the same sound but significantly reduced options.
   
  I am going to order one soon, as I am without a DAC and AMP right now.  Someone should start up an official Head-fi sparrow thread soon.


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## Kayk

I ordered one a few days ago, but I don't know how long it will take to arrive to Chicago. I didn't realize I am one of the first to order this lol. I don't have much experience with comparing DACs/amps, but I have a CMOY and an EF2 I will compare this too. I got the version A so hopefully the extra cost is worth it.
   
  It appears that the mini toslink cable also works on the new late '09 macbooks as well, which is great news for me! I'll be sure to get one of these since it beats the USB connection I am using now with my EF2.


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## Crazy*Carl

I also ordered a Sparrow and used to have an EF2.  I found the EF2 useless with my HD580, as it sounded the same as an ipod.  The sparrow has a better dac and alot more power than the EF2, so hopefully it will work out well.


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## Rideau

I ordered my Sparrow Version A late April and it shipped out on May 7.


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## spookygonk

For those who ordered the "A" model, did you add any of the D/A or DIR modules for 24/192 support?


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## ulyses

Please add some comments when shipment arrived.


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## numbskull

Quote: 





crazy*carl said:


> I also ordered a Sparrow and used to have an EF2.  I found the EF2 useless with my HD580, as it sounded the same as an ipod.  The sparrow has a better dac and alot more power than the EF2, so hopefully it will work out well.


 

 I am really interested in your opinion, particularly, about the sparrow. I read your topic about DACs, and want to see if you change your mind with this unit


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## Crazy*Carl

Quote: 





numbskull said:


> I am really interested in your opinion, particularly, about the sparrow. I read your topic about DACs, and want to see if you change your mind with this unit


 

 Haha, I will certainly provide it 
   
  I got this units because it has lots of power ~ 10 Volts (300mW at 300ohms) which is more than the 8V voltage swing someone on claimed the HD600s need (The EF2 has a Max of 6V).  Also, it was super cheap for what it comes with and its a well respected company around here.  I told myself this is it for me.  If I am not satisfied with it, I am gonna keep it anyway for a volume knob and peace of mind.


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## Crazy*Carl

Quote: 





spookygonk said:


> For those who ordered the "A" model, did you add any of the D/A or DIR modules for 24/192 support?


 

 Both D/A that can be chosen are 24/192 capable, but if you use the DIR9001 with optical, I think the most you can get is 24/96. The DIR8416 will get full 24/192.  I think this is how it works.


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## Zoltan99

According to an email sent to me by Kingwa the Fun and Sparrow of the same version will sound the same.  So Fun A and Sparrow A will sound the same. 
   
  All you loose is the extra functionality of the Fun.


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## movi

Quote:


zoltan99 said:


> According to an email sent to me by Kingwa the Fun and Sparrow of the same version will sound the same.  So Fun A and Sparrow A will sound the same.
> 
> All you loose is the extra functionality of the Fun.


 

 can anyone confirm this? i mean, is it literally the same sound path but different features on the FUN?
  
  Quote: 





crazy*carl said:


> Both D/A that can be chosen are 24/192 capable, but if you use the DIR9001 with optical, I think the most you can get is 24/96. The DIR8416 will get full 24/192.  I think this is how it works.


 

 i'm guessing he meant over USB. according to the website, they all support 24/192 by default over optical and coax but 24/96 over USB. you have to upgrade that one module if u want 24/192 over USB


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## Crazy*Carl

I thought the DIR module was specifically for SPDIF input, not usb?  If you want usb, you have to pay extra and have something else installed I believe.
   
  I also have heard multiple quotes of the audio gd saying the sparrow sounds the same as the fun.


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## audio-gd

I just mean they are same quality, but the flavors slight different.


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## Crazy*Carl

I am trying to understand how the sparrow works, so I made this diagram.  I don't know if its right, so feel free to correct it.


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## movi

ahh crap hang on i messed it up. default supports 24/96 over optical and coax, upgradeable to 24/192 with the upgraded DIR module. USB does not support 24-bit input AFAIK in any version


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## tim3320070

Quote: 





movi said:


> ahh crap hang on i messed it up. default supports 24/96 over optical and coax, upgradeable to 24/192 with the upgraded DIR module. USB does not support 24-bit input AFAIK in any version


 

 No it doesn't but I cannot hear a significant difference between 16/44.1 and 24/96- I have the Ref-3/Ref-1 combo using the 16/44.1 USB input. Recording quality is a much more significant factor.


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## numbskull

You guys think the amp of sparrow will be enough for a 600 ohms Beyer?


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## Crazy*Carl

Quote: 





numbskull said:


> You guys think the amp of sparrow will be enough for a 600 ohms Beyer?


 

 It is as powerful as the Fun.
   
  The specs for the Sparrow say 150mw for 600 ohms (~10 Volts).  Should power them fine.


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## les_garten

I just received my Sparrow today. It shipped Friday via EMS.  Wednesday is usually when I get things from KW.  It is the perfect size for a small footprint DAC/AMP combo of good quality.  I'm letting it run a little presently.  Sounds a little thick sounding at present.  Very nicely built.  I have the USB version A.  I wanted it to use out of my Laptop on an over bed Table.  MyLaptop has Optical out, so that will work great.
   
  So I only have fairly low impedance canz now.  I listen loud.  I was at 12:00 with Denon D5000s, and at about 1:00 with Beyer 770-80 Pros for a reference point.  Don't know if it would handle 600 ohm Beyers, but from my initial impressions, I would say more gain might be called for with the 600 ohm canz.


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## tim3320070

Do you have any other portables to compare to (like D10 or something)?


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## Crazy*Carl

The sparrow is not a portable in any regard.  Its desktop dac/amp that happens to be somewhat small.


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## tim3320070

I understand that but it's use will be with systems like Les is talking about.


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## Rideau

Ok just received my Sparrow Version A with the USB, DIR9001 and DA8740 Wolfson upgrade.  Just alittle out of the Box impression; it has more power than the Audinst HUD-MX1 for sure, also good Bass punch, nice wide soundstage and detail while listening to some Alicia Keys.  By the way i'm using the USB and my W1000X.  So far  a step in the right direction, just needs alittle more burn in time.  Also this is a very solid Amp for home use and not portable outside, unless you are taking it out in a big backpack, lol.


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## les_garten

Quote: 





tim3320070 said:


> Do you have any other portables to compare to (like D10 or something)?


 

 Hi Tim,  
     No, the smallest I have is a Compass or FUN.  I didn't want a portable, so much as  a small Footprint DAC/AMP and the Sparrow is the perfect size for me. 
   
  One thing it's missing, is some little Rubber feet on the bottom.  It kinda slides around a little.  Very Solid build as one would expect from A-GD.


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## Rideau

It could use some Rubber feet.


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## EraserXIV

les_garten said:


> Hi Tim,
> No, the smallest I have is a Compass or FUN.  I didn't want a portable, so much as  a small Footprint DAC/AMP and the Sparrow is the perfect size for me.
> 
> One thing it's missing, is some little Rubber feet on the bottom.  It kinda slides around a little.  Very Solid build as one would expect from A-GD.


 

 If you get around to it, any comparisons with the FUN would be greatly appreciated!


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## haloxt

Received it today. These are just first impressions and I'll correct them if needed after 400 hours of burn-in. I think the sound is a little too energetic for me, other than that the sound signature is neutral and crystal clear (in the sense the tone is clear and confident, I won't decide exactly how detailed it is until after burn-in). Clarity, fast controlled detail and soundstage width/continuity are what I hear to be the sparrow's strong points.
   
  Some shortcomings I see is that the timbre doesn't seem to have many shades of emotion in instrument decay, and this is maybe the first flaw you'll see given the huge amount of microdetails (even ambient detail) in the sparrow. The soundstage is big, ever-present with proper positioning and with good analytical detail, but depth is probably the second weak point. Other than these two things, I think the sparrow is impressive.
   
  I am mostly impressed by the "crystal clear" sound signature of the sparrow. I will have to do some A/B'ing with my dac19mk3+phoenix (which is using RCA not ACSS), because I think the sparrow does certain high frequency sounds and ambience in a way I like better than how my main rig does them. I also like the small footprint and price!
   
  Here's to hoping burn-in magically fixes the shortcomings, and maybe I'll sell everything else I have .


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## Mr Joboto

Quote: 





numbskull said:


> You guys think the amp of sparrow will be enough for a 600 ohms Beyer?


 

 No.


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## cheesetogo

Quote: 





mr joboto said:


> No.


 

 You want to elaborate on that? I see that you have a compass -- have you tried to drive high impedance cans with it before?


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## tim3320070

We need to hear comparisons with Dac/Amps in the same price range, including portables.


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## haloxt

Sorry to compare sparrow to the more expensive dac19mk3+phoenix, but I actually think in some important aspects their performance can be compared. Never felt that way about the compass except some soundstage qualities.


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## kr0gg

haloxt, what version of Sparrow do you own?
  and how long did the shipping take?


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## haloxt

At first I wanted basic then switched to version A, so probably version A but I'll check inside to make sure .
   
  2010-05-10  18:53:00      SHUNDE       Posting 
  2010-05-13  14:09:00      UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 30005       Attempted delivery


----------



## kr0gg

OMG. that's incredibly fast)
  i live in Moldova and 3 days is a pretty good timing for sending mail within a city. i can only dream about such international shipping
   
  btw why did you chose version A?)


----------



## haloxt

Because I read someone posting Kingwa's opinion that with good enough cables, you may tell a difference between basic and version A, but with stock cables it may be hard to tell a difference. I also presumed that to mean version A to be more revealing of cable differences, and that's important to me because I like to try new cables to get a sound I like.


----------



## EraserXIV

I just ordered the Basic version yesterday. I thought about it for a long time but figured the extra premium wasn't worth it. Came out to $189 shipped to Boston, MA USA.
   
   
  EDIT: those who are curious, i think version A would have ran $266 shipped to the USA.


----------



## haloxt

Kingwa wouldn't offer basic version if he thought it was bad cost/performance to use less premium parts, I'm guessing the ACSS layout is the most important thing because I think I'm hearing a few new microdetails that may have been veiled by my rca connectors for dac19+phoenix.


----------



## EraserXIV

hmm yeah the ACSS seems to be the driving technology. If i had the extra cash i would have ordered version A, if only just for the peace of mind, but i'm on a tighter budget now. This hobby has gotten a bit out of control 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  
  haloxt, about how long did it take for them to ship it after you put in the order?


----------



## haloxt

In my case it took a good while because the order was placed before release. They try to keep popular items in stock, so time of order and shipping may be just 1-3 days, but as of right now expect to wait up to a week unless they have some sparrows ready to be shipped, especially since they let all their gear burn in at least 100 hours and test for faults. You can always email audio-gd for an ETA on items you want to order.


----------



## les_garten

Depending on when you order in the shipping cycle, and if they are on hand, it should be 10-14 days MAX from time of order.  Most likely less than that.
   
  Hand made, and worth the wait.


----------



## Crazy*Carl

It took them about 5 days to ship mine out.  Currently in the mail system and should arrive soon.


----------



## Kayk

Quote: 





crazy*carl said:


> It took them about 5 days to ship mine out.  Currently in the mail system and should arrive soon.


 

 This for me also ^
   
  It's been a few days since it was shipped, and my DHL tracking number isn't working yet. Also, the audio-gd website was down.


----------



## EraserXIV

they recommended DHL to me too, I was under the impression that EMS was faster.


----------



## les_garten

I've mostly received EMS from KW.  Mine went into the mail on Friday and I powered up on Wednesday.
   
  But, you're gonna get it reasonably quick, so really not sure why all the second by second interrogations.


----------



## Crazy*Carl

I think we can pretty much call this the official Audio gd Sparrow thread now.


----------



## Kayk

Quote: 





crazy*carl said:


> I think we can pretty much call this the official Audio gd Sparrow thread now.


 

 Yeah but he should rename the title to something less misleading, the sparrow is not portable, its just pretty small.


----------



## Crazy*Carl

If thats possible, sure?
   
  If not, I guess someone can start a new thread.


----------



## nManJofo

What USB chip does it have?
   
  I was thinking of getting a Styleaudio Ruby MK2, but maybe Sparrow will change my mind... if it sounds the same as Fun, I probably won't regret getting Sparrow instead of Ruby. Anyone willing to review his new unit?


----------



## haloxt

I believe the sparrow uses usb2706 like the FUN. It certainly beats the audio-gd compass . And it gives me emotions of denial when my ears tell me the sparrow puts up a good fight against my dac19mk3+phoenix in terms of speed, macrodetails and size of ambience, but when I concentrate my attention on soundstage depth, microscopic nuances, and shades/tones of decay and emotional variety, I can tell the dac19mk3 (with rca connection, not acss connection) does better overall, but I don't know if it could justify the price increase.
   
  If you've never been sensitized to extremely fast nuances (especially in bass) and soundstage decay/echoes, you will think the sparrow has no apparent weaknesses, and that it is strong on many points. And I think the slightly energetic sound signature I noted before is just a product of the dac19mk3's better instrument decay. This is with ~75 hours of my own burn-in time on top of factory burn-in time, I'm afraid of it improving with more burn-in and maybe do nuances nearly the same level as dac19mk3 . Luckily I'm preparing myself by buying a dac9mk3  but I highly suspect my headphones and transport and albums won't be on the same level as dac9mk3+phoenix, maybe I should just sell everything and get a sparrow for all my needs .


----------



## Ypoknons

Quote: 





haloxt said:


> I believe the sparrow uses usb2706 like the FUN. It certainly beats the audio-gd compass . And it gives me emotions of denial when my ears tell me the sparrow puts up a good fight against my dac19mk3+phoenix in terms of speed, macrodetails and size of ambience, but when I concentrate my attention on soundstage depth, microscopic nuances, and shades/tones of decay and emotional variety, I can tell the dac19mk3 (with rca connection, not acss connection) does better overall, but I don't know if it could justify the price increase.
> 
> If you've never been sensitized to small nuances and soundstage decay/echoes, you will think the sparrow has no apparent weaknesses, and that it is strong on many points, and the slightly energetic sound signature I noted before is just a product of the slight shortcomings of the sparrow, and you wouldn't likely notice it. This is with ~75 hours of my own burn-in time on top of factory burn-in time, I'm afraid of it improving with more burn-in and maybe do nuances nearly the same level as dac19mk3 . Luckily I'm preparing myself by buying a dac9mk3  but I highly suspect my headphones and transport and albums won't be on the same level as dac9mk3+phoenix, maybe I should just live with the sparrow ..


 
   
  I think that's true of moving from a 'good' amp to a high-end amp for many people really, more than usually acknowledged. Indeed I could be 'happy' with a HD650 <- Compass but on the other hand I felt there were enough differences listening at the shop to justify a more expensive amp (but the Compass was priced at $400, so the differential wasn't that big). Of course, this is all said without taking them home and being familiar with them for months on end (the last amp I owned as a Headroom Micro), so I'll need to try that.
   
  That said, if the Sparrow is as good as you say, it must be an incredible value.


----------



## haloxt

I would say it is a great value if you want emotionally honest, detailed, focused, immediate (ie, not super 3D depth) sound, but if you want extremely deep soundstage, and lots of timbre detail and decay, the sparrow won't satisfy like audio-gd's mid/top-tier products.


----------



## Crazy*Carl

I am gonna go pick mine up very soon and should have some initial impressions by the end of the day.


----------



## Ypoknons

Hopefully you hear something!


----------



## les_garten

Quote: 





haloxt said:


> I believe the sparrow uses usb2706 like the FUN. It certainly beats the audio-gd compass . And it gives me emotions of denial when my ears tell me the sparrow puts up a good fight against my dac19mk3+phoenix in terms of speed, macrodetails and size of ambience, but when I concentrate my attention on soundstage depth, microscopic nuances, and shades/tones of decay and emotional variety, I can tell the dac19mk3 (with rca connection, not acss connection) does better overall, but I don't know if it could justify the price increase.
> 
> If you've never been sensitized to extremely fast nuances (especially in bass) and soundstage decay/echoes, you will think the sparrow has no apparent weaknesses, and that it is strong on many points. And I think the slightly energetic sound signature I noted before is just a product of the dac19mk3's better instrument decay. This is with ~75 hours of my own burn-in time on top of factory burn-in time, I'm afraid of it improving with more burn-in and maybe do nuances nearly the same level as dac19mk3 . Luckily I'm preparing myself by buying a dac9mk3  but I highly suspect my headphones and transport and albums won't be on the same level as dac9mk3+phoenix, maybe I should just sell everything and get a sparrow for all my needs .
> 
> Btw I dunno if I should post this in other audio-gd threads, but dac9mk3 is currently discounted on audio-gd.com, it is to be discontinued and this is the last batch. Will delete this last sentence when I see it is no longer on sale.


 
   
   
  The A-GD website is down presently.  What is the DAC 8 going for?  That should be a great deal for sme folks.


----------



## nManJofo

Can anyone compare Fun or Sparrow to Styleaudio stuff? And how often does audio-gd release new modules?


----------



## haloxt

He quoted me $950.
   
  Also just letting people know, Kingwa sent me this sparrow to test and give him feedback, not give impressions on head-fi. My impressions of audio-gd is probably biased from Kingwa's habit of being too generous. But on the other hand I only have audio-gd products to compare so I will never wrongly criticize other brands.


----------



## Kayk

Quote: 





haloxt said:


> The A-GD website is down presently.  What is the DAC 8 going for?  That should be a great deal for sme folks.


 
   
  They just changed the format of their site, google audio-gd site again and you will see they changed stuff around a bit.
   
  I just got my Sparrow in the mail, first impressions : 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  After being ampless for a week or so on my D-2000s, the sparrow sounds much more articulate, detailed, and has a much greater sense of soundstage compared to amp-less. Compared to my EF2, it doesn't have the 'tube sound' that the EF2 had, which IMO makes the Sparrow even better. It also just feels like its not having any trouble amping what I'm listening too, and looks and feels like a very well made product.
   
  The only 2 things I don't like about it so far is that the input switch says 1, 2 and 3, not USB, Coax, and Optical. It's kinda vague but I'll figure it out soon. My second gripe is that the power switch is on the back (Do I have to regularly turn this unit on and off like my old tube amp? Or can I just leave it on all the time?)


----------



## Crazy*Carl

I just got my Sparrow in this morning. 
   
  First Impressions:
  Good detail, but what I really notice difference is BIG soundstage.
  Great unit and build
  Tons of power
   
  I also used to have a EF2 and to me it sounded the same as my computers onboard.
  Sparrow better unit and value.  Much more impressions to come later.


----------



## les_garten

Quote: 





kayk said:


> They just changed the format of their site, google audio-gd site again and you will see they changed stuff around a bit.
> 
> I just got my Sparrow in the mail, first impressions :
> 
> ...


 
  It won't hurt it to run all the time IMHO.  It runs pretty cool.  Mine has a "box" temp of 95F in a 78F ambient temp room.  I would agree with the labeling, it could be have been more precise.


----------



## EraserXIV

@haloxt
   
  you've mentioned before that the treble on the sparrow is a bit hot. do you think it's because of the DA1852 chip? On the website they describe the DA1852 as: "Sounds a bit dynamic with extended highs."
   
  Maybe switching to the DA8740 module would make it a bit better? The website decribes the DA8740 as: "Sounds a bit tubelike and soft/warm." Did Kingwa give you a DA8740 to test out?


----------



## Kayk

I just came back here to post that the highs are significantly better than my EF2, and that the beats are very hard hitting, which is a really cool effect.
   
  Also, the light on the front of the box is basically a super small LED light that is illuminated a piece of transparent glass or whatever a dim blue, which is cool because it doesn't shine when it's in your peripheral vision, and it's a low brightness but easily visible light.
   
  My volume right now is reasonably loud and the volume knob is only turned up about 1/3rd of the way..


----------



## haloxt

Quote: 





eraserxiv said:


> @haloxt
> 
> you've mentioned before that the treble on the sparrow is a bit hot. do you think it's because of the DA1852 chip? On the website they describe the DA1852 as: "Sounds a bit dynamic with extended highs."
> 
> Maybe switching to the DA8740 module would make it a bit better? The website decribes the DA8740 as: "Sounds a bit tubelike and soft/warm." Did Kingwa give you a DA8740 to test out?


 

 I don't have the other dac module, I will order it and the dir8416 though. I get the feeling most people will like neutral dac module and neutral receiver, as there is already slight warmth with stock modules, mainly in the bass region, which has a droning sort of quality, but still good impact.


----------



## nManJofo

Great, Audio-GD website says that USB chips they use are out of production (PCM2706), Sparrow and FUN are out of stock.


----------



## Crazy*Carl

Quote: 





nmanjofo said:


> Great, Audio-GD website says that USB chips they use are out of production (PCM2706), Sparrow and FUN are out of stock.


 

 Just use optical or coaxial S/PDIF with the Sparrow A/B version without USB.  Almost any motherboard has one or the other these days.


----------



## nManJofo

But not my notebook


----------



## numbskull

Hey Crazy*Carl, you got the Basic or A version of Sparrow?
  
   
   
  I plan to use it with my laptop as well, there is no optical/coaxial out


----------



## Crazy*Carl

I got the Basic version with S/PDIF only.
   
  I guess you will have to wait for them to get a new usb chip for the sparrow or find a usb S/PDIF converter.


----------



## Ypoknons

You heard something! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  Quote: 





crazy*carl said:


> I just got my Sparrow in this morning.
> 
> First Impressions:
> Good detail, but what I really notice difference is BIG soundstage.
> ...


----------



## DDVX

Quote: 





nmanjofo said:


> But not my notebook


 

 Just wanted to point you to a comment in thread I made because I have the same problem as you:
   


  Quote: 





leeperry said:


> toslink supposedly has a higher jitter than coax, but it provides a galvanically isolated connection...so your nasty laptop PSU noise won't reach your DAC.
> 
> 10 bucks and you're in: http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=dg2+xitel&_sticky=1&_trksid=p4978.c0.m456&_sop=15&_sc=1
> 
> I've ordered one but because of that volcano ** it still hasn't arrived, but someone else on the forum has it and he seems pretty happy





   
  Let me make it clear that I *have not *used this, but it is what I plan to buy for my sparrow since my laptop doesn't have spdif out as well. It plugs into USB and allows digital out. Here is a link to the entire thread so you can read other people comments about it: http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/491550/external-soundcards-for-laptop-with-spdif
   
  Not sure how bad of etiquette it is to link to that without using it, but figured some information is better than none.​


----------



## nManJofo

I sent an email to audio-gd, but their English is really bad. I was trying to ask, what USB chip were they going to use, but the guy on the other side didn't understand. The only thing I've learned is that Audio-GD is not planning to make new upgrade modules for Sparrow at the moment.


----------



## kunalraiker

Quote: 





nmanjofo said:


> I sent an email to audio-gd, but their English is really bad. I was trying to ask, what USB chip were they going to use, but the guy on the other side didn't understand. The only thing I've learned is that Audio-GD is not planning to make new upgrade modules for Sparrow at the moment.


 


 Edwin can be really hard to get through sometimes, Kingwa would sometimes directly reply.


----------



## nManJofo

It was Edwin who replied... I also asked, if they would use Tenor TE7022L as replacement for PCM2706 USB chip... but no answer.
   
  What disappointed me a bit is that they probably won't make new modules for Sparrow. It's a pitty, because they introduced really good concept of upgrading their "boxes", but on the other hand, audio-gd is not planning to introduce new modules, which is simply killing the purpose it was made for.


----------



## haloxt

nManJofo, the reason he doesn't make new modules is probably because he has done a lot of research and knows the current DA1852 and DA8740 modules would be hard to beat. I have to admit the sound signature of the stock sparrow is pretty darn good, and neutral as heck, and I would not push audio-gd to make new modules when they haven't found a sure improvement yet, or a different sound signature worth being made into a new module. And the reason why Kingwa hasn't just thrown in a random replacement chip for the pcm2706 is because he wants to use good components in his products.


----------



## Currawong

It's sad to read comments by quite a few people that the EF-2 didn't improve on their onboard sound, as I admire Head-Direct/Hifiman for their attempts at innovation.  When the Compass was originally created, Kingwa said he didn't want to make bad-sounding gear, so there was a limit to how cheap he would go.  However, the Compass was, relative to other gear, feature-overkill.  The Sparrow has been the first thing he'd made which has actually come to closest to the original intentions of the Compass, which was to provide an entry-level piece of gear at a reasonable price (~$200) that covered the need for amping headphones basically decently and providing a decent DAC.
   
  If the Sparrow is the same as the Fun, then after a couple of weeks of being left switched on, it'll become smooth enough that even bright headphones wont sound fatiguing, which was something I didn't like about the Compass.  The DIR9001 + AD1852 + ACSS gain stage is a big improvement over what is in the Compass and I could live with it for casual listening.  Usual disclaimer applies here: Like haloxt, Kingwa sent me a Fun to give feedback on and I haven't been able to compare it to other all-in-one units from other makers.
   
  haloxt: Good description of the differences between the Sparrow and Fun and the more expensive gear, by the way.


----------



## Ypoknons

Quote: 





currawong said:


> It's sad to read comments by quite a few people that the EF-2 didn't improve on their onboard sound, as I admire Head-Direct/Hifiman for their attempts at innovation.  When the Compass was originally created, Kingwa said he didn't want to make bad-sounding gear, so there was a limit to how cheap he would go.  However, the Compass was, relative to other gear, feature-overkill.  The Sparrow has been the first thing he'd made which has actually come to closest to the original intentions of the Compass, which was to provide an entry-level piece of gear at a reasonable price (~$200) that covered the need for amping headphones basically decently and providing a decent DAC.


 

 And I believe that's a very important goal. Some people are very demanding (many of the members in the high-end for example), but others just want good sound and not have to spend too much time and money messing around. In my view many music lovers can benefit from spending money on something like a HD600+Sparrow combination. They might not really care if the decay on the cymbals or the tone of a violin string is exactly thus, but more detail, good instrument separation, a decent soundstage that avoids congestion, a frequency response that's not wildly off (like a Skullcandy Max Bass or cheap stereo) ... I think really readily noticeable and worthwhile for a great many people... 
   
  (edit) That was a bit of a manifesto, I suppose or even a rant, since I don't own the Sparrow (I've auditioned the Compass), but I don't know, I thought it was interesting.


----------



## Crazy*Carl

Quote: 





ypoknons said:


> Some people are very demanding (many of the members in the high-end for example), but others just want good sound and not have to spend too much time and money messing around. In my view many music lovers can benefit from spending money on something like a HD600+Sparrow combination. They might not really care if the decay on the cymbals or the tone of a violin string is exactly thus, but more detail, good instrument separation, a decent soundstage that avoids congestion, a frequency response that's not wildly off (like a Skullcandy Max Bass or cheap stereo) ... I think really readily noticeable and worthwhile for a great many people...


 
   
  This is exactly what I want.  Alot of head-fi is very silly to me --  people spending insane amounts of money and getting diminishing returns, which is fine if you like that.  However, I only want "decent mid-fi sound", (which is amazing sound to any non audiophile).  I need to spend more time looking for music, not browsing head-fi. 
   
  But I have to say I think I have finally struck gold here, and should be content with this rig for 4 or 5 years I am hoping.


----------



## les_garten

Quote: 





nmanjofo said:


> It was Edwin who replied... I also asked, if they would use Tenor TE7022L as replacement for PCM2706 USB chip... but no answer.
> 
> What disappointed me a bit is that they probably won't make new modules for Sparrow. It's a pitty, because they introduced really good concept of upgrading their "boxes", but on the other hand, audio-gd is not planning to introduce new modules, which is simply killing the purpose it was made for.


 
  Strange, because I don't see the need for a lot of other modules?  What did you have in mind?  He obviously will have to address the USB question, but what else?


----------



## nManJofo

Maybe I'm wrong.... (well, not maybe)
   
   
  I'm new to hi-fi, but experienced with computers. And specs are quite important, when choosing between f.e. two processors. So you choose according to "objective" features. This is my problem - now I know that hi-fi stuff should be chosen according to "subjective" quality. There are many dacs that are better "on paper" compared to ADi AD1852 and Wolfson WM8740, but THD and SNR is probably not so important (f.e. PCM1792, used in Topaz, has 132dB SNR).
   
   
  The question is - is Sparrow f.e. worth extra ~80USD compared to Audinst MX1? I have no idea, cos I've never had anything better than Audigy SE.... the only thing I can grab are the specs. But whith that USB chip, I think there is not much to spoil - TE7022L is widely used, even in more expensive stuff, and I think it would be a step to the right side. PCM2706 did only 16/48.
   
  I simply have to become more experienced


----------



## loopfreak

Would someone review the damn thing


----------



## les_garten

Quote: 





nmanjofo said:


> Maybe I'm wrong.... (well, not maybe)
> 
> 
> I'm new to hi-fi, but experienced with computers. And specs are quite important, when choosing between f.e. two processors. So you choose according to "objective" features. This is my problem - now I know that hi-fi stuff should be chosen according to "subjective" quality. There are many dacs that are better "on paper" compared to ADi AD1852 and Wolfson WM8740, but THD and SNR is probably not so important (f.e. PCM1792, used in Topaz, has 132dB SNR).
> ...


 

 The are a few ways to make your decisions.  Based on paper specs is probably not in my process. You can go on reputation of the design and designer.  You can go by the design itself.  You can go by "trusting" someone who hears the way you do, and likes the sound you like, and has the "experience" to be able to review gear.  Because a lot of sound appreciation is a learned skill, the best way is to have access to a lot of gear for extended time.  That's hard for most people to do just because it's so expensive of course.


----------



## spookygonk

Quote:


loopfreak said:


> Would someone review the damn thing


 
  Yeah, I'm wavering between one of these or a Matrix-M for my PC.


----------



## DDVX

Quote: 





spookygonk said:


> Quote:
> Yeah, I'm wavering between one of these or a Matrix-M for my PC.


 

 Same, and on top of that, I can't decide if Version A is worth the extra money over Basic. Is there a sound difference (I know this a continuing controversy) or is it just for prolonged life?


----------



## LarsMonsen

I placed an order on the basic usb sparrow a few days ago, only to read minutes later on their websites that they have no more usb chips... Bummer! I sent them an e-mail to find out if they knew when they would get the missing parts. Got this reply:
   
  Quote: 





> And the time we can not make sure the time,because this need to wait for the component sent the USB Modules to us,if they can not sent to us on time,that we can not make sure the time.Sorry.
> As long as the Sparrow finish,we will contact with you.
> 
> Edwin


 
  From what I can read out of that reply they have no idea at all. But since I've already payed I guess I'm just gonna have to sit back and wait patiently. :/ Hopefully they'll come up with a solution within reasonable time. What other usb chips can we perhaps expect to see as a replacement?
   
  And I must say I find it rather peculiar that they haven't got a replacement already. The manufacturing of PCM2706 stopped last year apparently, which should have given them plenty of time to find a replacement.


----------



## anoobis

When I last looked, they appeared to have some basic USB versions already built, so you might be in luck.
   
  An alternative is to buy the non-USB and a (cheap) USB convertor. Can't comment on how good the USB conversion is in the Sparrow.


----------



## nManJofo

According to TI website, PCM2706 seems to be still in production (Status:Active)
   
LINK


----------



## LarsMonsen

From the reply they sent me I got the impression they had no more usb versions already built in stock. I'm not really in a rush to get mine, but I'm hoping they'll find a solution soon enough. And I'd like to know what kind of replacement they'll come up with.
   
  And I'm really hoping that if they replace the usb chip it will be with one that is Linux compatible as well. (the PCM2706 is, as far as I know)


----------



## Crazy*Carl

Those of you with desktops, no need for usb, just use the coaxial or optical.


----------



## Rideau

Quote: 





crazy*carl said:


> Those of you with desktops, no need for usb, just use the coaxial or optical.


 

 Crazy*Carl,  I have been using the  Optical, also use a different toslink cable than the one supplied.  I noticed a difference switching from the stock toslink to my kimber Kable OPT1 cable.


----------



## Crazy*Carl

Quote: 





rideau said:


> Crazy*Carl,  I have been using the  Optical, also use a different toslink cable than the one supplied.  I noticed a difference switching from the stock toslink to my kimber Kable OPT1 cable.


 


 I am not a believer in changing cables.  $50 or $60 for a short optical cable is crazy in my eyes. Then again, most audiophile stuff to me is.  But that is fine if you see the difference 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
   
   
  After doing some quick A/B comparisons, I can say the sparrow is better than onboard sound, something I have not heard in several DAC/Amps recommended from head-fi.
   
  What I really notice the most from the sparrow is soundstage... so this is what it is!


----------



## cheesetogo

Arg... I just found out that EMS hands off their packages to USPS (I suppose they all probably do though). I hate USPS...


----------



## tim3320070

This why I don't use EMS from him anymore- DHL has been flawless.


----------



## cheesetogo

Quote: 





tim3320070 said:


> This why I don't use EMS from him anymore- DHL has been flawless.


 

 Who does DHL hand their packages off to?


----------



## Crazy*Carl

I have used EMS twice, and both times they were good.


----------



## EraserXIV

cheesetogo said:


> Who does DHL hand their packages off to?


 

 DHL delivers it themselves. DHL is just like FedEx or UPS.


----------



## cheesetogo

Quote: 





eraserxiv said:


> DHL delivers it themselves. DHL is just like FedEx or UPS.


 

 Heh, I guess you haven't used DHL in the past year or so (or do you not live in the US?). They pulled out of the US around the Fall of 2008.


----------



## EraserXIV

cheesetogo said:


> Heh, I guess you haven't used DHL in the past year or so (or do you not live in the US?). They pulled out of the US around the Fall of 2008.


 

 Oh hm yeah now that you mention it, the last time I used DHL was about 2 years ago. I have no idea then.


----------



## Rideau

Quote: 





crazy*carl said:


> I am not a believer in changing cables.  $50 or $60 for a short optical cable is crazy in my eyes. Then again, most audiophile stuff to me is.  But that is fine if you see the difference
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

  
  Crazy*Carl,  You could use any quality toslink, but I was getting all kinds of interference, whenever I was using the supplied toslink.  Everything was resolved by replacing the OEM cable.


----------



## Toe Tag

I heard that FedEx and UPS are going to merge... the new company will be called Fed-Up...
   
  Just got my cheapest-possible-version of the Sparrow. Shipped Tuesday, arrived Thursday. From Foshan City, Guangdong, China. (also known as Canton Province, in the Pearl River Delta, near Shenzhen, Hong Kong, and Macau). To Taiwan. 
   
  One thing I can contribute is, its about the same size as a mac mini. Not as tall or as wide, and a bit deeper. It would be a fun mod to take one of those same-footprint-as-the-mac-mini hard disk cases and move the Sparrow guts into it, assuming they'd fit. 
   
  Of course if you live by the mac, you die by the mac, so now I have to wait 2 weeks for the mini-plug-TOSLINK to TOSLINK optical cable to arrive...
   
  Some of the above discussion misses the point. If you want interchangeable modules, that's what the Audio-gd Fun is for. If you want incredible bang for the buck from a designer and manufacturer who is well regarded by the well regarded head-fi forum, get the Sparrow.


----------



## Rideau

Quote: 





toe tag said:


> I heard that FedEx and UPS are going to merge... the new company will be called Fed-Up...


----------



## movi

^^ ya i found that funnier than i should have probably
   
  when i finally get around to buying a Sparrow i think i'll run Blue Jean coax cables from my desktop


----------



## aperson

I just got a Sparrow version A a couple days ago and it's wonderful.
   
  It's my first desktop dac/amp so I don't have anything similar to compare it to. However I find that it pairs nicely with my new 701s.
   
  From my limited experience I found that it brings out the clarity of songs and it extends the bass lower than my old cheapo usb dac > portable amp setup.
   
  Only problems I can think of so far is the poor labelling of the input switch, the lack of some rubber feet (which have both been mentioned before) and the unit runs a little warm in my opinion.
   
  Overall I think it sounds great and I can't wait to discover my songs again.


----------



## Kayk

Quote: 





aperson said:


> From my limited experience I found that it brings out the clarity of songs and it extends the bass lower than my old cheapo usb dac > portable amp setup.
> 
> Only problems I can think of so far is the poor labelling of the input switch, the lack of some rubber feet (which have both been mentioned before) and the unit runs a little warm in my opinion.
> 
> Overall I think it sounds great and I can't wait to discover my songs again.


 
   
  To extend on this, here is my list:
  + The ceiling has been raised for high notes
  + Powerful and well built unit
  + Incredible improvement in soundstage
  + Improved instrument separation
  + Improved detail across the board
  + Small/compact form factor (Not so much depth-wise)
  = My volume knob has never gone farther than 1/3rd of the way around
  = Unit runs kinda warm
  = Power switch is on the back
 - No analog inputs
  - Output switch uses vague symbols ( -, O, =, 1, 2, 3) instead of the name of the connection type.
  - No rubber feet
  - I've had strange issues while gaming, sound effects sometimes decide to only play through the left ear only or the right ear only. Tolerable, but noticeable.


----------



## movi

Quote: 





kayk said:


> = My volume knob has never gone farther than 1/3rd of the way around, this means it will run high impedance headphones just fine


 
   
  i thought that was a bad way to try to judge that though


----------



## Kayk

Quote: 





movi said:


> i thought that was a bad way to try to judge that though


 

 Well, I don't have any experience with high impedance headphones, but I get the idea that the Sparrow has a lot of power inside the little box so I made the assumption that it can do such a thing.


----------



## anoobis

kayk, I'd have been happier if there was an analogue input too, however, I suspect that's a design decision taken to keep down the cost, form factor and possibley prevent an impact on SQ. Remember that the Sparrow uses ACSS internally and this connection would have to be switched to allow for the alternative input. I believe there are extra opamps involved in the non-ACSS connection too.


----------



## Ypoknons

Quote: 





movi said:


> i thought that was a bad way to try to judge that though


 

 It is. Volume is based on gain, which applies a multiplier on the signal (as far I can understand), and doesn't reflect the amp's power delivery capabilities. 
   
  Clipping, for example, would be fairly obvious indicator that there's not enough juice. Which is, by the way, is the genius of the Headroom Bithead - its clipping light tells you 'you need a better amp' without ambiguity.


----------



## Crazy*Carl

Quote: 





movi said:


> i thought that was a bad way to try to judge that though


 

 Ya, my ipod can get my HD580s quite loud.
   
  But, the assumptions on the sparrow are correct.  It can put out 10V, which is alot.  Same power as a little dot MKII and just a little under a little dot MKIII.  The sparrow stomps the EF2 (which only puts out about 6V), and almost any portable I presume.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

These amps need to run warm as they are biased heavily into Class A. That warmth is a byproduct and a necessity for proper sound quality (for this design topology). The transistors have to warm up before they begin to sound their best
   
  Peete.


----------



## miyinan

I contacted them a couple weeks ago trying to order the basic version with usb and was told that it was out of stock. But I guess it leaves me sometime to read a little more here. Anyways, a few questions about it:
   
  1. Is the ACSS only used on the A version or both? If it is only on A version, how much difference will it actually make?
   
  2. Does it only support up to 48/16 via usb? If so, then Version A wouldn't make much difference than the Basic version if I only use them via usb and keep them stock, would it?
   
  3. If they can't get the usb chip in stock soon enough, I'll probably just order one without usb and use my udac as a usb to coxial converter. My question is that, because the udac only supports up to 48/16, will it limit the Sparrow to only 48/16 as well?
   
  4. On its website, it says that it is okay to use the headphone jack (with the adapter) as preamp out. Has anyone tried this? Can I use it with my powered speakers? (I have a pair of computer speakers that I sometimes listen to as well)
   
  5. To set it up, do I just plug it in and it will replace the inernal sound card automatically and that's it? Any driver that I will need to install?
   
  A lot of questions....sorry I am only new to this hobby....
   
  Thanks


----------



## Crazy*Carl

Quote: 





miyinan said:


> I contacted them a couple weeks ago trying to order the basic version with usb and was told that it was out of stock. But I guess it leaves me sometime to read a little more here. Anyways, a few questions about it:
> 
> 1. Is the ACSS only used on the A version or both? If it is only on A version, how much difference will it actually make?
> 
> ...


 
   
  1. Both
  2. Yes, only 16/44.  Don't worry about this, 16/44 is much better than you actually need unless your a really crazy audio nut.
  3. Not sure, but I think the uDAC 16/44 is referring to the actual saber dac's capability.  You can also use the optical or coaxial out found on most motherboards.  This is what I do.
  4. Yes, as long as the speakers have an amp, though this unit really isn't made primarily for that purpose.
  5. Yup, no drivers.  You just enable the right device in your sound properties and thats it. Plug and play.  If you have an trouble setting it up, there are many people in this thread who can help
   
   
  It was said by the makers of audio gd themselves that the audio differences between A and B are minimal.  They said that if you were using custom cabling, you may hear the difference.  The A version just uses better parts.  If you just want some good sound for good headphones, Sparrow Basic is probably the best price to performance DAC/AMP around.


----------



## les_garten

Quote: 





miyinan said:


> I contacted them a couple weeks ago trying to order the basic version with usb and was told that it was out of stock. But I guess it leaves me sometime to read a little more here. Anyways, a few questions about it:
> 
> 1. Is the ACSS only used on the A version or both? If it is only on A version, how much difference will it actually make?
> 
> ...


 
   
   
  1)  ACSS is used on both versions.  The difference in the version is Version B is Good Quality Components(Caps & Resistors) Version A is Premium Quality Caps & Resistors
   
  2)  Don't know for sure.  But I would thing 48/24 bit
   
  3) Don't know, I really don't fool with USB much
   
  4)  Haven't done it, but I'm sure it will work perfect with your Powered speakers as a Pre-amp.
   
  5)  YES, sort of.  It will add itself as a SC, you will then have an additional SC present.  The installed and the USB.  You may have to fool around with what output is being used.


----------



## miyinan

@ Crazy*Carl and @ les_garten: Thanks so much for your inputs. I wish my T400 thinkpad has either the optical or coxial audio output. But if I am not mistaken, it doesn't unless I guess putting in another Express card. Any T400 or other thinkpad users here?


----------



## les_garten

Quote: 





miyinan said:


> @ Crazy*Carl and @ les_garten: Thanks so much for your inputs. I wish my T400 thinkpad has either the optical or coxial audio output. But if I am not mistaken, it doesn't unless I guess putting in another Express card. Any T400 or other thinkpad users here?


 
  Looks like you can do SPDIF w/ the advanced dock
   
http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/ThinkPad_Advanced_Dock


----------



## haloxt

miyinan,
   
  4. Kingwa says not to worry about sound degradation from using headphone out as preamp, just keep it at 10 to 2 o'clock. He even says that on the FUN it may sound better than RCA out due to the ACSS gain modules in the headphone amp section. I use it with recabled computer speakers and think it sounds good.
   
  5. It's a good idea to go with a bit-perfect driver like WASAPI, KS, or ASIO, that way you can bypass windows kmixer and resamlping. There's many variables that may cause one to give you difficulties, but I suggest just trying out newest foobar version with WASAPI or KS plugin. If you want to try ASIO, you need to get the plugin from the foobar site and also download either ASIO4ALL or USB-audio (this one costs money, or beeps every 30 seconds, but sounds a bit better than asio4all). With all these you will have to enter foobar preferences and change the bit-size to one the plugins like, and also raise the millisecond latency whenever you hear clicks or static from doing things on the computer and playing music simultaneously. Pm me if you need any help, these software can be finicky sometimes.


----------



## tim3320070

With all my gear, I am still not certain I have my computer output  set correctly.
   
  -Internal soundcard disabled
  -System sounds off
  -I run MediaMonkey with the Wave output, volume at 100%
  -USB to my Ref-3
   
  Am I missing anything? Sorry to ask in this thread.


----------



## Crazy*Carl

Quote: 





tim3320070 said:


> With all my gear, I am still not certain I have my computer output  set correctly.
> 
> -Internal soundcard disabled
> -System sounds off
> ...


 

 If your hearing sound through the DAC, then its working.  You don't have to disable the soundcard or system sounds.  I leave those on because I like them (one reasons using wasapi is a pain).  Just make sure that you have the DAC set as the active sound device in the sound control panel.


----------



## tim3320070

Thanks- just looking to maximize SQ going to my zillion dollar gear....


----------



## haloxt

No tim what are you doing?!? 
   
  http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=62905
   
  Only get asio4all+asio plugin, OR just kernal streaming plugin. I think getting just KS plugin would be easiest to setup. The reason you want bit-perfect is that windows resampling actually takes away 1-2 bits from the music.


----------



## Crazy*Carl

Quote: 





haloxt said:


> No tim what are you doing?!?
> 
> http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=62905
> 
> Only get asio4all+asio plugin, OR just kernal streaming plugin. I think getting just KS plugin would be easiest to setup. The reason you want bit-perfect is that windows resampling actually takes away 1-2 bits from the music.


 
  Ya, bits you dont need.  I notice no difference between DS and WASAPI/ASIO
   
  I heard a bit drop sample once from 16 down to 0 and significant degradation wasn't apparent until about 9 bits.


----------



## transient orca

Quote: 





les_garten said:


> Looks like you can do SPDIF w/ the advanced dock
> 
> http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/ThinkPad_Advanced_Dock


 

 Actually the advanced mini dock has spdif, too. All the newer model docks (for T410, T510, and W510) don't have digital audio out anymore though.


----------



## haloxt

Crazy'Carl, no one really knows just how many bits are required to cross the threshold of audibility (conscious or unconscious), but to be safe, we can take easy, cost-free precautions to preserve all the bits.
   
   
  Quote: 





> Regular CD audio is 44.1 kHz. Many times, due to poorly written drivers, sound cards that will interact with the KMixer will cause this 44.1kHz data to be resampled to 48kHz. Obviously this will result in an undesirable result when trying to achieve the utmost in sound quality. The mixing algorithm as implemented by Microsoft has been shown in many cases to only have a signal to noise ratio of about 92dB. CDs have a signal to noise ratio of about 96dB (technically 97.5dB).


 
   
  http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/221237/asio4all-explanation


----------



## Crazy*Carl

Quote: 





haloxt said:


> Crazy'Carl, no one really knows just how many bits are required to cross the threshold of audibility (conscious or unconscious), but to be safe, we can take easy, cost-free precautions to preserve all the bits.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/221237/asio4all-explanation


 
   
  Yes, it comes down to the whole goal here at head-fi.  There are truthes then there are unknowns (or highly subjective things).  I tend to be more of a skeptic when it comes to many things here, but that's just me


----------



## miyinan

@les_garten: Thanks again for your info. I'll check into that
  @haloxt: Thanks. I think I am currently using foobar WASAPI output to my uDac and it works fine. I will see how it work with the Sparrow when I get it.


----------



## nManJofo

Any news about availability of USB version?


----------



## LarsMonsen

Quote:


nmanjofo said:


> Any news about availability of USB version?


   
  I ordered my sparrow basic usb version one week ago and got a tracking number today. Not sure if they're out of stock now though? (they informed about the problem before I ordered mine)


----------



## miyinan

Quote: 





crazy*carl said:


> I just got my Sparrow in this morning.
> 
> First Impressions:
> Good detail, but what I really notice difference is BIG soundstage.
> ...


 


 Crazy*Carl, what version did you get? A or Basic? Trying to decide between them and thinking I am gonna just go with whichever come in stock first...Actually, I have a pair of HD580s too. Do you mind sharing some thoughts on this combination?
   
  Thanks


----------



## Crazy*Carl

Quote: 





miyinan said:


> Crazy*Carl, what version did you get? A or Basic? Trying to decide between them and thinking I am gonna just go with whichever come in stock first...Actually, I have a pair of HD580s too. Do you mind sharing some thoughts on this combination?
> 
> Thanks


 

 I got the Basic without USB.  I am running it through the S/PDIF optical out on my desktop computer.
  Its a good unit.  Neutral, powerful, detailed. What I notice most is the soundstage. I doubt there is anything better for the price, or maybe even double the price.
   
  I plan on giving a more detailed review in the future when I get more used to it.


----------



## Ypoknons

Quote: 





crazy*carl said:


> I doubt there is anything better for the price, or maybe even double the price.


 

 You gonna backup that twice the price claim?


----------



## Crazy*Carl

Quote: 





ypoknons said:


> You gonna backup that twice the price claim?


 

 That's why I said "maybe"


----------



## Currawong

Carl: It might be an idea, for the sake of Head-fi, to not make wild claims about gear.  It's good though if you can write about how it compares to other gear you have on hand, as people will be very interested.


----------



## miyinan

I just ordered my Sparrow as a b-day gift for myself. Kingwa said that it was the last usb unit they had in stock. Lucky me? It was a basic version. He also said that there would be more in stock in about 2 weeks, but I didn't wait cuz he said the difference between A and Basic would be hardly noticeable via usb and stock cable. And I will not have my b-day again after 2 weeks, will I? 
   
  Anyways, I will post some impression after I get it. Exciting!


----------



## Crazy*Carl

Quote: 





currawong said:


> Carl: It might be an idea, for the sake of Head-fi, to not make wild claims about gear.  It's good though if you can write about how it compares to other gear you have on hand, as people will be very interested.


 

 I am not making wild claims, I said maybe for a specific reason of not getting myself into a hole, which apparently didn't work.
   
  This website is the epitome of wild claims.  After all, there are people buying and recommending 300 dollar headphone cables and $2000 DACs.  Go tell them not to make wild claims.


----------



## Ypoknons

Quote: 





crazy*carl said:


> This website is the epitome of wild claims.  After all, there are people buying and recommending 300 dollar headphone cables and $2000 DACs.  Go tell them not to make wild claims.


 

 So don't you do the same. You made the claim, Curra and I cautioned you, don't make drama out of it. As for your swipe at high-end DAC and cables, if you want to criticize them do so in the appropriate forum, where they can respond.


----------



## miyinan

Wow...easy guys...This forum is full of all kinds of "comparisons" and "impressions" and like you said "wild claims". I guess it is the nature of these audio stuffs. They are just subjective. It doesn't hurt to read them but needs to take with a grain of salt. That's it. This is just my 2cents.
   
  Should we make this official thread for the Sparrow anyway? (Change the name of course


----------



## Crazy*Carl

Yes, official sparrow thread.  I sent in an admin request.
   
  Update: Changed!


----------



## numbskull

Any problems driving IEMs with sparrow? Like damaging the drivers. I ask this because i plan to use it with my UM3X for now, while i am still researching for a full sized can.


----------



## Ypoknons

Quote: 





numbskull said:


> Any problems driving IEMs with sparrow? Like damaging the drivers. I ask this because i plan to use it with my UM3X for now, while i am still researching for a full sized can.


 

 I would worry more about hiss than driver damage, that's what a volume knob is for


----------



## haloxt

With my 16 ohm 94 sensitivity and 30 ohm 96 sensitivity headphones, I am just above the channel imbalance zone for very low volume listening levels.
   
  Your Westone UM3X IEM's are 56 ohm impedance 124dB/mW sensitivity, probably way too sensitive for the sparrow unless you try to ask for a gain change (not sure if possible), but you should find out exactly how much gain reduction you need given the high sensitivity of your IEM's so you don't overdo it, I suspect that a sparrow with gain lowered to suit the UM3X will limit you from using some low sensitivity headphones, but I may be wrong, maybe someone with such sensitive IEM's can share their experience.


----------



## nManJofo

Note about lack of USB chips is no more on audio-gd website... I'm gonna send an email to be sure.


----------



## kunalraiker

Quote: 





nmanjofo said:


> Note about lack of USB chips is no more on audio-gd website... I'm gonna send an email to be sure.


 


 I e-mailed them today, for any information on when the new usb chips would be available, Edwin said
   
*Sorry,now we can not make sure the time,but if has any new,we will tell to everyone.*


----------



## Crazy*Carl

Quote: 





haloxt said:


> With my 16 ohm 94 sensitivity and 30 ohm 96 sensitivity headphones, I am just above the channel imbalance zone for very low volume listening levels.


 

 I am just above the channel imbalance zone (under 9 o clock or so) with 300ohm sennheiser sometimes.  But this should never be an issue for anyone, just drop the device volume so the knob is much higher.


----------



## nManJofo

Mr. Kingwa replied to me... Sparrow will be back on stock in cca 15 days.


----------



## DDVX

Wait...the USB Sparrow or are all of the Sparrows out of stock? I thought it was just the USB. My birthday is on the 15th. Hope I'll be able to ship one in by then.


----------



## AVU

I had asked and they said they could make a low gain version for IEMs.  Didn't pursue it because I wanted to try the usb version


----------



## Crazy*Carl

Quote: 





avu said:


> I had asked and they said they could make a low gain version for IEMs.  Didn't pursue it because I wanted to try the usb version


 

 I guess they could, but the sparrow is kind of overkill for them.


----------



## numbskull

Quote: 





crazy*carl said:


> I guess they could, but the sparrow is kind of overkill for them.


 

 Yeah. It's not my purpose to use it with IEMs. It's just temporary.


----------



## Crazy*Carl

My volume knob seems always to be at only about 9 o clock, maybe a touch higher for normal listening. Also, at minimum volume, it is still audible, and not even that quiet.  I have the device volume and program volume maxed.  I think I am goign to drop the device volume on windows to 50% so I can get more to 10 o clock just to ensure I am out of the imbalance region. Boy does this thing get loud.


----------



## EraserXIV

hey just received mine today. did any of yours come with an RCA cable? i was under the impression that it was supposed to.
   
  also, they gave me the power cable for the wrong region. i mean they were shipping it to the USA, shouldn't I get a USA cable?


----------



## movi

Quote: 





crazy*carl said:


> My volume knob seems always to be at only about 9 o clock, maybe a touch higher for normal listening. Also, at minimum volume, it is still audible, and not even that quiet.  I have the device volume and program volume maxed.  I think I am goign to drop the device volume on windows to 50% so I can get more to 10 o clock just to ensure I am out of the imbalance region. Boy does this thing get loud.


 

 can someone explain this "imbalance region" concept? i did a search but didn't find anything


----------



## Crazy*Carl

Quote: 





movi said:


> can someone explain this "imbalance region" concept? i did a search but didn't find anything


 

 It just means at low volume knob positions, the right and left volumes are not equal.  Easily fixed with lowering software volumes though.


----------



## Dane

Reducing digital volume control, i.e. software volume, is probably a very bad idea since you basically loose bits. You should stay at 100%.
   
  Example:
   
  Sample 1: 1000
  Sample 2: 1001
  Sample 3: 1002
  Sample 3: 1003
   
  Now, applying 50% software volume you get:
   
  Sample 1: 500
  Sample 2: 500
  Sample 3: 501
  Sample 3: 501
   
  You just lost resolution right there since sample 1 and 2 are now identical, as is sample 3 and 4. Whether this is audible is a different matter


----------



## DDVX

Does anyone with a sparrow use it with denons? I recently got the D2000s and was thinking about purchasing this. How does it match up?


----------



## les_garten

Quote: 





ddvx said:


> Does anyone with a sparrow use it with denons? I recently got the D2000s and was thinking about purchasing this. How does it match up?


 

 D5000 works very well with the Sparrow.


----------



## Crazy*Carl

Quote: 





dane said:


> Reducing digital volume control, i.e. software volume, is probably a very bad idea since you basically loose bits. You should stay at 100%.
> 
> Example:
> 
> ...


 

 I guess thats true, but those are bits you might not need.  I can't hear the difference.  So much at headfi is about minimizing loss, and its all true. But do we ever take the time to ask ourselves, can it actually be heard?  To me usually not. I don't wanna make a huge debate here, but the differences between 128 mp3 and lossless are very small in my opinion... much smaller than the differences between good and bad headphones/speakers.  That being said, I still opt for lossless when I can get it.  WASAPI vs DS - I hear no difference.
   
  All I am getting at is minimizing loss is fine, but sometimes it gets in the way.  I don't use WASAPI because its a hassle to have to close foobar then restart my browser to watch a youtube video.  I like to have my sparrow set at 75% becasue at 100% I am sometimes in the volume imbalance region.  I hope this makes sense.


----------



## nManJofo

Carl - you have basic version, don't you? Maybe beause of cheaper Alps pot you experience channel imbalance.


----------



## Crazy*Carl

Quote: 





nmanjofo said:


> Carl - you have basic version, don't you? Maybe beause of cheaper Alps pot you experience channel imbalance.


 

 Maybe.


----------



## haloxt

Imbalance occurs at the first 30ish degrees of volume increase from minimum, it's normal. If you have very sensitive headphones, like portables and IEM's, you may want to consider asking for a custom lower gain. I think people with 25 ohm, 106 sensitivty D2000 and D5000 are sometimes in the imbalance region at low-medium volume listening, or very close.


----------



## Crazy*Carl

Quote: 





haloxt said:


> Imbalance occurs at the first 30ish degrees of volume increase from minimum, it's normal. If you have very sensitive headphones, like portables and IEM's, you may want to consider asking for a custom lower gain. I think people with 25 ohm, 106 sensitivty D2000 and D5000 are sometimes in the imbalance region at low-medium volume listening, or very close.


 

 I am in the region with 300 ohm Sennheisers sometimes


----------



## Crazy*Carl

I am going to do a blind AB test soon with the Sparrow and iPod with Sennheiser HD580.  I will test several music types and 320 kbps mp3/lossless files.


----------



## miyinan

Quote: 





crazy*carl said:


> I am going to do a blind AB test soon with the Sparrow and iPod with Sennheiser HD580.  I will test several music types and 320 kbps mp3/lossless files.


 
  It'd be interesting to know the result cuz I'm using the same setup as yours.


----------



## moomooemu

i am kinda confused what is the difference between USB and BNC. you guys said that the USB is out, so I should just go with the BNC if I have a desktop???
   
  and I am kinda confused about the setup. I will be connecting my emu0404 usb via coax as a transport to the sparrow. The emu is already connected USB to the computer. But my question is, do I connect the emu0404 BNC or do I connect it RCA coaxial???


----------



## haloxt

"i am kinda confused what is the difference between USB and BNC"
   
  http://www.dnrpc.com/store/images/BNC_T.gif
   
  BNC is a rarer connector than USB/optical SPDIF/coaxial SPDIF
   
  "you guys said that the USB is out"
   
  It is now available again.
   
  ."so I should just go with the BNC if I have a desktop???"
   
  Your desktop doesn't have BNC, it has USB, and MAYBE ALSO built-in coaxial or optical SPDIF. But since you have emu0404 with coaxial/optical SPDIF, you could get BNC version to save money, because USB version sparrow costs more money. But if you get USB sparrow, you can connect directly to computer without emu0404 as transport.
   
  "But my question is, do I connect the emu0404 BNC or do I connect it RCA coaxial???"
   
  RCA coaxial.


----------



## Crazy*Carl

The sparrow is a stand alone unit.  You can't really use it with the emu 0404, unless your doing a USB to SPDIF coaxial conversion with it or something.


----------



## DDVX

Quote: 





haloxt said:


> "you guys said that the USB is out"
> 
> It is now available again.


 

 Is that confirmed? I talked to Kingwa a few days ago and he said it would be available "within 15 days." He said he would email me when they had more in stock, but maybe he forgot. Do you know anyone who has gotten one in the past few days?


----------



## nManJofo

You can chceck their website, what they ship every day. But what kind of Sparrow is not mentioned...
   
  http://www.audio-gd.com/ConsignmentGlobal.htm


----------



## haloxt

DDVX, my bad, I just looked around the website and found no mention of usb being out of stock so thought it was over. You could always send another email to ask, but they probably have several other people who want usb sparrow and wouldn't forget to tell you when they have it in stock.


----------



## miyinan

Quote: 





ddvx said:


> Is that confirmed? I talked to Kingwa a few days ago and he said it would be available "within 15 days." He said he would email me when they had more in stock, but maybe he forgot. Do you know anyone who has gotten one in the past few days?


 
  I ordered mine on May 25. Kingwa said it was the last usb Sparrow they had in stock, so I went ahead and ordered it. But he said they would be back in stock in about 2 weeks. I didn't wait for those new ones cuz it was my b-day gift for myself
  
  It shouldn't be long till they are back in stock or they are in stock already cuz the out of stock notice has gone for a week now from their website.


----------



## moomooemu

He told me "Sparrow USB version A out of stock now, it will in stock around 15th June."


----------



## DDVX

Yeah that's what he told me too. Unfortunately June 15th is my birthday. I wanted to have it in by then. Does anyone know about how long it takes to have it shipped to the US?


----------



## les_garten

Quote: 





ddvx said:


> Yeah that's what he told me too. Unfortunately June 15th is my birthday. I wanted to have it in by then. Does anyone know about how long it takes to have it shipped to the US?


 

 I had mine shipped on a Fri and got it in S. FL on Tues or Wed.
   
  All his gear arrives in that timeframe.


----------



## haloxt

Quote: 





eraserxiv said:


> @haloxt
> 
> you've mentioned before that the treble on the sparrow is a bit hot. do you think it's because of the DA1852 chip? On the website they describe the DA1852 as: "Sounds a bit dynamic with extended highs."
> 
> Maybe switching to the DA8740 module would make it a bit better? The website decribes the DA8740 as: "Sounds a bit tubelike and soft/warm." Did Kingwa give you a DA8740 to test out?


 

 I let wm8740 burn in for 5 hours and been listening for about an hour. It has better soundstage depth and is less bright, but also less detail accuracy. I will let it burn in for at least a hundred hours before comparing the two modules, but one thing is certain, it is quite less fatiguing if your setup has too much dynamics or music is very compressed. I said I would get the 24/192 module but decided not to because I thought wm8740 would already be overdoing warmth, but apparently it's quite okay and pleasant to listen to. Next time I order something from audio-gd I will get the receiver module, and see if 24/192 module+ad1852 is as unfatiguing as 16/44 module+wm8740.


----------



## DDVX

Quote: 





les_garten said:


> I had mine shipped on a Fri and got it in S. FL on Tues or Wed.
> 
> All his gear arrives in that timeframe.


 
   
  Great to hear. That's pretty fast. And Haloxt, so are you suggesting the 8740 or were you just saying that it is very different? I'm still trying to decide between the two chips for my D2000s.


----------



## haloxt

It isn't so different as to significantly lose neutrality, but right now, with only several hours of burn-in and 1-2 hours of first impressions, it is more spacious, with vocals seeming to come from further away instead of trying to grab you up close with quick dynamics and highs, same with some instruments especially violin. Soundstage positioning isn't as serious as the ad1852, but more of a relaxed ambience taking its time with less attempt at being accurate. George Winston's Angel is similar in emotion to wm8740. Listening to this song with it will seem perfectly in place, but listen to high-energy/aggressive music with wm8740 and you notice this is what the wm8740 tends to bend high energy music to with its more relaxed sound, however it still is not so much as to become seriously unneutral/unfaithful, it is still neutral, just not faithful as ad1852. I'm going to burn in 100 hours before doing a real comparison though, this is just my thoughts in the first two hours of listening, and as of right now I can't decide if wm8740 would be a good idea given the loss in raw detail.
   
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9oboAkSdGY
   
  edit: also just letting you know, I don't use youtube music hehe I prefer lossless.


----------



## Crazy*Carl

My Sparrow Test:
   
  http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/495666/audio-gd-sparrow-blind-test#post_6689553


----------



## miyinan

A bit supprised by the result, but good job on the test Crazy*Carl.


----------



## Crazy*Carl

So who wants my Sparrow? (Basic, optical/coaxial only)


----------



## DDVX

Edit: Nevermind. See that it's basic. Think I'm going to get Version A.


----------



## AVU

Just got my custom sparrow - very fast shipping, gorgeous unit.  Went with the B, with the very neutral 9001 and 1852 chipset, but had it modified to low-gain (+3dB) and upgraded the volume pot to the Alps (version A) which he said would eliminate any channel imbalance at low volumes.  Running optical out of my powerbook pro.
   
  I'm going to post a full review comparing it to my highflight-modded D4 Mamba once I get my Jh13s back.  I've already tried them against with my old 580s, and right off the back, I like it very much, but I don't think the 580s can due justice to the sensitivity of the differences, so I'll hold off before commenting further.


----------



## EraserXIV

how much did it cost for just the version A alps upgrade?


----------



## AVU

Not much - something like $7


----------



## movi

so i guess Version A - USB now comes with 24/96 support on the USB input


----------



## loveholic

They are using tenor 7022 chipset now. Surprising.


----------



## kunalraiker

Quote: 





loveholic said:


> They are using tenor 7022 chipset now. Surprising.


 


 what is so surprising,would it be a bad chip.


----------



## loveholic

Quote: 





kunalraiker said:


> what is so surprising,would it be a bad chip.


 
   
  Because someone here mentioned Tenor told Kingwa the chip was unstable. Didn't think they were going to use this chip.


----------



## kunalraiker

you are scaring me,I'am awaiting my DAC with this chip.


----------



## loveholic

I personally would choose the new tenor chip over previous one. I also noticed they dropped the price for a bit which is a plus. Sparrow just got sweeter.


----------



## nManJofo

Awesome news! After I pass my exams, I'm definetely buying one!


----------



## Elanzer

I went ahead and ordered the Basic BNC version after hearing USB was out of stock on here (didn't care too much, would be connected by TOSLINK to desktop PC and probably not used with laptop), but about half a week later they emailed me and told me that they were out of stock on the BNC version and asked if it was ok if they just sent me the USB version - gladly accepted ofcourse.
   
  When I get it I'll try to test it on the 3 pairs of headphones I have: Alessandro MS-1, AKG K240 MKII, and Beyerdynamic DT 990 Pro 250-ohm. It will be my first DAC/Amp as all I have used until now is direct analog out from a Xonar DX sound card (which by the way was a HUGE upgrade over the onboard sound, most likely because the onboard sound couldn't supply nearly enough power).
   
  I'm a bit skeptical as to how much of an improvement if any at all the sparrow will be, as with all 3 pairs of my headphones I cannot set the volume higher than about 40% before my headphones begin to make me deaf, so they seem to be driven pretty well just connected directly to the sound card. For my laptop, it will definitely be a big improvement as all 3 pairs of headphones sound very thin in comparison to my desktop PC connected to the Xonar DX at any volume. Can't wait for it to get here.


----------



## Crazy*Carl

Try and conduct a blind test before you review the sparrow.  This goes to all.  Humans have natural biases when testing audio equipment.


----------



## AVU

Quote: 





crazy*carl said:


> Try and conduct a blind test before you review the sparrow.  This goes to all.  Humans have natural biases when testing audio equipment.


 

 Will do.  I think everyone who takes testing seriously attempts to control for their natural biases to the extent possible.  In any case, I'm only going to be testing the two through a macbook pro, 580s and JH13s, and I really don't expect there to be much difference at all. I'd be surprised if there was.  Sparrow's cheaper but with more space for components and wall power, D4 is almost twice the price but has to run off battery and accomidate two gains.  I'd expect they'll come out nearly identical.


----------



## Crazy*Carl

Quote: 





avu said:


> Will do.  I think everyone who takes testing seriously attempts to control for their natural biases to the extent possible.  In any case, I'm only going to be testing the two through a macbook pro, 580s and JH13s, and I really don't expect there to be much difference at all. I'd be surprised if there was.  Sparrow's cheaper but with more space for components and wall power, D4 is almost twice the price but has to run off battery and accomidate two gains.  I'd expect they'll come out nearly identical.


 

 I am much more interested for you to compare the Sparrow to your mac book pro headphone out.


----------



## Currawong

Quote: 





crazy*carl said:


> I am much more interested for you to compare the Sparrow to your mac book pro headphone out.


 

 I intend to do this with my new MBP when the Sparrow arrives, for sure.  By the way discussion of DBT is forbidden outside the Sound Science forum.
   
  As for the Tenor chip, there were questions of its reliability, but I guess that Kingwa has solved them (or Tenor has) if he's using the chip.  At worst, the chip is on a separate board.  It would be a good idea if all his products that have USB included had it on a separate chip as it would then be easily upgradable should a better solution become available, then he'd just have to upgrade the USB board.  As well, so could customers.


----------



## FallenAngel

Wow, the comparisons made here...  I'm expecting the Sparrow to dominate against onboard laptop.


----------



## AVU

Done a bunch of tests, but will do a bunch more before writing up the results.  I do want to say the following for those thinking of buying the Sparrow: DIR 9001 instead of CS8116, and AD1852 instead of WM8740.  The amp is plenty smooth and rich with the standard, low-jitter DIR and D/A - I can't imagine wanting it to sound any "softer or more tube like" than it already is.


----------



## Crazy*Carl

Quote: 





currawong said:


> I intend to do this with my new MBP when the Sparrow arrives, for sure.  By the way discussion of DBT is forbidden outside the Sound Science forum.


 

 Thats stupid, post it anyway.


----------



## Crazy*Carl

Quote: 





fallenangel said:


> Wow, the comparisons made here...  I'm expecting the Sparrow to dominate against onboard laptop.


 

 Mine, as well as every other external DAC/AMP I have heard doesn't sound any difference than my intels onboard sound.


----------



## kunalraiker

Quote: 





crazy*carl said:


> Thats stupid, post it anyway.


 


 Mate you are here still


----------



## les_garten

Quote: 





fallenangel said:


> Wow, the comparisons made here...  I'm expecting the Sparrow to dominate against onboard laptop.


 

 I bought it specifically to use with my Laptop because of it's diminuitive size.  My Laptop(SAGER NP8120) has some type of Realtek HD chipset. Gaming Laptop with (2) Nvidia GTX 285's in SLI mode, 18.4" LED Screen, 1.7 TB HDD, RAID, BDROM, etc, etc.
   
  Absolutely Toasts the onboard sound in output power, clarity, bass, extension, detail, you name it.  I'm feeding SPDIF COAX off the Laptop to the DAC in the Sparrow.
   
  Last Laptop I just got rid of a few weeks ago was a 17" MacBook Pro.  Onboard sound on it was "ok", but didn't handle my cans anywhere near how the Sparrow is doing now.


----------



## haloxt

I've had at least 80 hours on the wm8740 module now. Here are my thoughts, mainly using stock optical cable out of my iriver h120, stock 6 ft power cable out of the wall, and DIY $15 headphone cable made out of 24awg and 25awg canare wires. I have also tried with more expensive accessories to try to get a better handle of the difference between the two dac modules.
   
  I think the ad1852 is quite a lot more accurate in retrieving micro-detail and presenting it in a neutral, controlled/serious, and slightly upbeat/quick way. There is less depth in soundstage, and a more predictable soundstage, which lets you grasp the whole song with like a bird's eye perspective. For most people, this is the module I would recommend, because it gives you lots of neutral detail. However, if you don't particularly enjoy having micro-details pop up everywhere, or prefer to have more of an emphasis on emotion, the wm8740 may be preferable. The only drawbacks I think it has is less soundstage depth, and it is a little quick with its emotional expression, during some occasions I have felt the musicians just wanted to do a "good job" and collect paycheck and go home  but it's a slight deviation from what I feel would be perfectly neutral.
   
  Wm8740 retrieves more emotion, but less easy to intellectually understand the whole picture because it is not as good as ad1852 in maintaining complex low volume details, or in capturing the full frequency bloom of drums, and such things in the background sometimes get smeared and feel out of place. It lets you hear more depth and meaning behind the main instruments and voices, with songs with a lot of emotion, the wm8740 is impressive. Two other good things I see about it is it does have more spacious soundstage, and a more polite high frequency. Those who don't care about neutral and accurate representation of detail, or prefer more rich, complex and deep emotional meaning over raw detail (especially for songs that don't rely on background instruments or sound effects), the wm8740 will please you more.
   
  Wm8740 I would recommend to fewer people because most people getting a sparrow probably want a preponderance of detail, and accuracy across all the frequencies, which the ad1852 offers. But if detail and accuracy aren't your priority, consider wm8740.
   
  Ordered the dir8416 module yesterday, will probably give my opinion on it in 2-3 weeks.


----------



## nManJofo

Nice review. Can you compare Sparrow also to other gear you own/owned/heared?


----------



## AVU

Haloxt, this is extremely informative.  Thank you.  I don't have the 8740 module for the Sparrow to compare to, but I do have the iBasso D4 w/ its dual 8740s.  I haven't listened enough to offer the level of detailed commentary you've given, but my initial tests, at least with my 580s, make it sound like the D4 is more like your 1852 on the sparrow - it's a bit more punctual, but slightly fatiguing, not necessarily more detailed.  I don't think I like it as much.  But again, I don't trust my old 580s as a reliable source for these fine judgments.  I should have my JH13s back next week, and then we'll see.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Quote: 





haloxt said:


> I've had at least 80 hours on the wm8740 module now. Here are my thoughts, mainly using stock optical cable out of my iriver h120, stock 6 ft power cable out of the wall, and DIY $15 headphone cable made out of 24awg and 25awg canare wires. I have also tried with more expensive accessories to try to get a better handle of the difference between the two dac modules.
> 
> I think the ad1852 is quite a lot more accurate in retrieving micro-detail and presenting it in a neutral, controlled/serious, and slightly upbeat/quick way. There is less depth in soundstage, and a more predictable soundstage, which lets you grasp the whole song with like a bird's eye perspective. For most people, this is the module I would recommend, because it gives you lots of neutral detail. However, if you don't particularly enjoy having micro-details pop up everywhere, or prefer to have more of an emphasis on emotion, the wm8740 may be preferable. The only drawbacks I think it has is less soundstage depth, and it is a little quick with its emotional expression, during some occasions I have felt the musicians just wanted to do a "good job" and collect paycheck and go home  but it's a slight deviation from what I feel would be perfectly neutral.
> 
> ...


----------



## FallenAngel

That's great for you, I on the other hand have been around for years and have gone through more gear that I wish to publicly admit which included many DACs (10-15 I think, some commercial, some DIY ranging from cheap TDA1545-based to NorthStar m192 to TPA Buffalo32), many amps (20+, most DIY including balanced Beta22, 3-channel Beta22, 3x Dynahi, 3x Dynalo, 2x M^3, 3x PPAv2, PPAv1, Pimeta, various Simosae amps, multiple SOHA 1&2 builds, every incarnation of the Millett Hybrid and many others) and many headphones (every Grado except SR125 including the vintages - still have my HP2, Sennheiser 580/600/650, Denon 2K&5K with mods, BeyerDynamic 770/880/990, some modded and many others) and noticed quite drastic differences.  It also helps that as I built most of the equipment I've used, I have spent many hours testing different configurations of parts, down to resistor and power supply capacitor choices in the builds, different volume controls, signal coupling capacitors (where applicable), different transformers, wire, connectors and just about everything else I could tinker with on the builds.  If you did not notice differences in equipment, be happy with what you enjoy.  I enjoyed most of the gear but have heard many differences between the equipment used.
  
  Quote: 





crazy*carl said:


> Mine, as well as every other external DAC/AMP I have heard doesn't sound any difference than my intels onboard sound.


----------



## Crazy*Carl

Quote: 





haloxt said:


> There is less depth in soundstage, and a more predictable soundstage, which lets you grasp the whole song with like a bird's eye perspective.
> 
> Wm8740 retrieves more emotion
> 
> preponderance of detail


 

 Predictable soundstage?  Bird eye perspective? What is that?  Your talking about audio right?!
   
  And how on earth can a electronic device have emotion and a "preponderance of detail"?
   
  Might as well rub some snake oil on it while your at it.
   
  I was right, audiophiles are delusional.


----------



## haloxt

nManJofo, the sparrow is very good in analytical speed, and it gives a powerful, decently textured sound. Not so strong points are its not very deep soundstage depth, okay timbre and modulation detail, and minute ambient details are usually overshadowed by bigger sounds. If I'm not listening intently for soundstage performance, the sparrow is very good. When I compare to dac19mk3+phoenix (using single-ended only), you find more soundstage depth and cues and more accurate timbre. dac9mk3+phoenix balanced and you get very minute modulation detail, more timbre characters, and bigger soundstage, with the music revolving more around the soundstage of the music rather than individual main instruments. I enjoy using the sparrow a lot even though I have higher gear, my opinion is that if you aren't insatiably addicted to more perfect detail and more lifelike soundstage, you may actually be perfectly happy with the sparrow, which has great analyzing speed and enjoyable, textured soundstage.
   
  Crazy^Carl, I will gladly explain what I meant, but judging from your prior behavior on other threads I have to ask you to please try to keep our discussions civil.
   
  "Predictable soundstage?"
   
  By predictable soundstage, I mean you know where sounds come from because the soundstage depth of the ad1852 is not that good, it is more of an up-front, close soundstage.
   
  "Bird eye perspective?"
   
  By bird's eye perspective I mean you can easily grasp on an intellectual level what the musicians want to express with a song. It's harder to do when certain instruments are colored, or when micro-details are smeared, which can cause sounds that were likely not intended to be heard. For example, if you listen to Belinda Carlisle's 2004 album Place on Earth: Greatest Hits track #16 "Feels like I've known you forever" you have all these background synthetic instruments obviously trying to contribute to the same general theme of the song without straying, and when there's smearing or inaccuracy in the background noises, they will sound discordant in relation to the rest of the music. I've often used this track for this reason to gauge how well different gear handle microdetail and ambient details. I don't know how many seconds of lossless I can legally let people use to sample, 30 seconds? I'll post it if someone tells me how many seconds I can post.
   
  "And how on earth can a electronic device have emotion"
   
  More accurate to say electronics differ in their ability or inability to articulate human emotions, a subjective thing.
   
  "and a "preponderance of detail"?"
   
  preponderance means "a lot", but since the word "a lot" is used so freely I thought it would be necessary to use the word preponderance, the other option was to use capitalized "A LOT".


----------



## movi

do you think the DA1852 would match better with a dark headphone like HD-650 though, due to its more "extended highs"?


----------



## burgunder

If the Sparrow had the opportunity to take an ACSS input from one of the more expensive Audio-GD dacs, I would seriously consider to buy one.


----------



## Currawong

*Crazy*Carl:* I'm going to say this once, and no more: I understand your experience, but it's your experience.  If you, instead of wanting to sensibly discuss your test results (or rant in any way you like) in YOUR thread about it, you instead feel the need to trash other people's threads calling people delusional and otherwise break the forum rules (which, I might add, were put there so that everyone can enjoy the forums), then we shall simply report your posts and they'll be deleted.  In my experience, people who end up going around trashing threads and starting flame wars with their obsessions end up banned.  This is the direction you seem to be going.  As a kindness I'm pointing these things out to you (in the same way myself and others attempted to point out various things to you in your thread) in the hope that you consider what I say and everyone benefits.


----------



## tim3320070

Plus, if you could hear for an extended period of time, the really well made gear that produces sound quality we all strive for in some way, your opinions and attitude would be different i bet. You have not reached the ceiling of sound quality with the Sparrow, I promise.
  Until you wasted money on snake oil products (and realized from experience what they really are), stop wasting time here.


----------



## Crazy*Carl

Quote: 





currawong said:


> *Crazy*Carl:* I'm going to say this once, and no more: I understand your experience, but it's your experience.  If you, instead of wanting to sensibly discuss your test results (or rant in any way you like) in YOUR thread about it, you instead feel the need to trash other people's threads calling people delusional and otherwise break the forum rules (which, I might add, were put there so that everyone can enjoy the forums), then we shall simply report your posts and they'll be deleted.  In my experience, people who end up going around trashing threads and starting flame wars with their obsessions end up banned.  This is the direction you seem to be going.  As a kindness I'm pointing these things out to you (in the same way myself and others attempted to point out various things to you in your thread) in the hope that you consider what I say and everyone benefits.


 

 I am trying to benefit the new people how might get fooled like I did.  I am doing the same thing you guys are, just rooting against the status quo and am getting crucified for it.


----------



## haloxt

Quote: 





movi said:


> do you think the DA1852 would match better with a dark headphone like HD-650 though, due to its more "extended highs"?


 

 If I had to guess, I'd guess da1852 would be a better choice, somewhat more dynamic can counter a dark sound.
   
  I think crazy^carl's opinion is valuable because if people with sparrow think it is lacking they should say it, more opinions is always better, so long as it doesn't lead to heated fights . I know my comparison between the dac modules sound exaggerated, I tried to nitpick differences when I personally don't think they are going to make or break your experience with the sparrow, because some people wanted to know which would suit their needs best. Maybe a month from now I will do a more thorough test, especially since the wm8740 module only has less than 100 hours still. But right now, the difference is not big like between earth/moon/sun hdam's, it's more like rolling neutral opamps with small-moderate differences.


----------



## Crazy*Carl

Excuse my harshness haloxt,   I might not understand but I respect your views. happy listening.
   
  I am about to conduct another test.  This time a true AB test with the sparrow and the ipod.  Results pending.


----------



## les_garten

Quote: 





haloxt said:


> I think crazy^carl's opinion is valuable because if people with sparrow think it is* lacking* they should say it


 

 He's not been saying that though.  He says everything sounds the same.  No up, no down, all the same.


----------



## Crazy*Carl

I just conducted an AB blind test with the Sparrow vs an ipod, and the sparrow vs an asus motherboard onboard sound.   Both me and the other person did the test and ran the test on the other.  Headphones used were Sennheiser HD580.
   
  In all tests, we were both unable to distinguish between the Sparrow, ipod, or the onboard sound.


----------



## kunalraiker

Quote: 





crazy*carl said:


> I just conducted an AB blind test with the Sparrow vs an ipod, and the sparrow vs an asus motherboard onboard sound.   Both me and the other person did the test and ran the test on the other.  Headphones used were Sennheiser HD580.
> 
> In all tests, we were both unable to distinguish between the Sparrow, ipod, or the onboard sound.


 


 I would take the sparrow,if you don't want it.my brother will definitely appreciate the gesture.


----------



## Currawong

We pointed out in your test thread the flaws in your methology, starting with your choice of lossy music that is poorly recorded. Again, continue the discussion of that there please.


----------



## boomana

Everyone has a right to their opinion, but opinions do not need to be shared rudely.  If there is any more name calling in this thread, it will be locked and moved until it can be cleaned up, if it can, and members who can't post respectfully will lose the right to post for awhile, if not permanently.  In other words, knock it off.


----------



## Crazy*Carl

Quote: 





boomana said:


> Everyone has a right to their opinion, but opinions do not need to be shared rudely.  If there is any more name calling in this thread, it will be locked and moved until it can be cleaned up, if it can, and members who can't post respectfully will lose the right to post for awhile, if not permanently.  In other words, knock it off.


 

 Ok, but let it be known that I can not tell the difference between the Sparrow and an ipod, or onboard sound.


----------



## FallenAngel

So we read... 5 times at least, lets move on.


----------



## miyinan

I received my Sparrow today, B version, I noticed that the volume knob and the input switch look different from the picture on their website. (Volume knob: Black vs. Silver. Input switch: Square vs. Round). Is the picture on the website A version? Should they look differently?
   
  Thanks


----------



## miyinan

nevermind. I just saw there was another picture on the website for the B version.


----------



## burgunder

I'm sorry to pose this question again but it was ignored the first time because of the DB discussion but how difficult do you gentlemen think it would be to connect one of the better Audio-GD dacs to the amp of the Sparrow with ACSS?


----------



## Crazy*Carl

Quote: 





burgunder said:


> I'm sorry to pose this question again but it was ignored the first time because of the DB discussion but how difficult do you gentlemen think it would be to connect one of the better Audio-GD dacs to the amp of the Sparrow with ACSS?


 

 Thats what the fun is for.  I guess it would be possible if you opened up the case and tryed to bypass the sparrows DAC.  I would have no idea how to do that.


----------



## haloxt

The sparrow and FUN are supposed to be similar in sound quality, but different sound signature. In slim.a's FUN review, 3Dac/preamp section and 4Headphone amp section are related to your question, but using rca instead of acss. I think he's saying the amp is the strong point of the FUN, and you may notice a worthwhile improvement outputting from dac19 RCA into fun, or in your case, some higher end dac with acss to modded sparrow. I say if you're planning on getting both a modded sparrow and a higher dac simultaneously, get the sparrow first, or a FUN if they can't add cast to sparrow (there's not much space, don't count on it), so you are free to decide what kind of dac you want in the future, or if you even need to upgrade.
   
  http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/468522/review-of-the-audio-gd-fun-a-modular-dac-headphone-amp-preamp


----------



## burgunder

I was thinking about ordering the Sparrow and then it would be nice to know whether or not it would be possible to upgrade with a better DAC using the ACSS I think that would provide a nice upgrade path anyway thx a lot for answers I have sent a mail to Audio-Gd too I let you know what they answer.


----------



## Currawong

There's no ACSS input on the Sparrow.  I'd consider just saving for the DAC19/C2 combo instead.


----------



## Crazy*Carl

lol man the controversy. posts being deleted left and right tonight!


----------



## DDVX

I've got to say, no post should be deleted. If something needs to be removed, the mods should edit it, erase the text in the post, and write what the problem was in the edit. Censoring without reason shouldn't be a part of head-fi.


----------



## anoobis

Could someone please clarify the current offerings?
   
  As I understand it, the USB chip is now the TE7022, which supports 24bit/96kHz input.
   
  Does this also apply to the basic version, or is the basic version no longer available? I understood that the original USB chip is out of stock.
   
  Also, did someone say that there had been a slight price decrease? What prices in the sparrow range have changed?


----------



## anoobis

Quote: 





burgunder said:


> I'm sorry to pose this question again but it was ignored the first time because of the DB discussion but how difficult do you gentlemen think it would be to connect one of the better Audio-GD dacs to the amp of the Sparrow with ACSS?


 


  Quote: 





crazy*carl said:


> Thats what the fun is for.  I guess it would be possible if you opened up the case and tryed to bypass the sparrows DAC.  I would have no idea how to do that


 
   
  As far as I'm aware, the FUN does not have ACSS inputs either.


----------



## nManJofo

Anoobis: basic version supports only 16/48, probably same old chip.
   
  A-version is fitted with TE7022


----------



## burgunder

Kingwa just replied (exellent support) and it's not possible to connect a higher end DAC to the Sparrow through ACSS.


----------



## EraserXIV

I just hooked up the DA8740 module to my Sparrow, it is a much mellower, warmer DAC. Definitely not as as dynamic as the DA1852 and the highs do not extend as high. It is very laid back in signature and almost tube-like. I think I prefer the DA1852 module for analytical and detailed listening sessions, but for extended sessions the DA8740 will not fatigue as easily. It's a matter of personal preference, but I definitely do hear a big difference, it's pretty prominent.


----------



## numbskull

So, anyone tried some 600 ohm beyer with sparrow? Want to make sure it drives beyers well enough, before i get it.


----------



## nManJofo

How to shop at their site? Just send an email?
   
   
  One more question - I have 32-OHM DT990, should I go for low-gain version? I'm gonna buy A model.


----------



## haloxt

People have used compass with dt990 600 ohm version with no problem, sparrow is most likely as good for high impedance headphones.
   
  Yep just send an email with what you want, give address info, and ask for a total with your payment method. What sensitivity on the dt 990? If under 106dB you should be fine, because people with 25 ohm 106dB/mW are above channel imbalance.


----------



## LarsMonsen

Has anyone got any experience with the sparrow along with AKG K701? I'm thinking about buying K701, but I'm unsure whether my sparrow will be sufficient for these cans? I've read lots about how difficult they are to amp.


----------



## dw1narso

Quote: 





burgunder said:


> Kingwa just replied (exellent support) and it's not possible to connect a higher end DAC to the Sparrow through ACSS.


 

 Just to give you an idea... look at the picture of the top part of Audio GD DAC modules... those pins connect the DAC module to Sparrow's ACSS modules... Those pins send two balanced channels from DAC to ACSS modules.
   
   

   
  So, potentially other DAC that have balanced VOut could be used to connect to ACSS, in the same way as Audio GD DAC modules...
   
  Going further, even IOut DAC, after you made balanced I/V circuit, you could connect it to ACSS too...
   
  Disclaimer: I don't have Sparrow... if you try to do it, do it on your own risk...


----------



## Crazy*Carl

You could say I am blind, but I could say your delusional n your thought about hi-fi equipment.


----------



## LarsMonsen

Quote: 





crazy*carl said:


> Do not believe the hype about amplification.   I failed blind tests between the Sparrow and ipod with 300ohm HD580.
> 
> People around here say all sorts of things,  but almost all of it is exaggerated and without proper testing.
> 
> ...


 

 I thought your blind test was interesting when I first saw it, but now you're just acting silly. I, along with many others, appreciate the sound from a better source than onboard sound card or ipod, so please stop your crusade against head-fi/hifi. Also, taking quotes out of context is a bad habit!
   
  Hopefully someone can reply to my original question regarding AKG K701 and this Sparrow.


----------



## EraserXIV

i think what people are afraid of is people reading this thread and believing that there is ABSOLUTELY no difference between different DACs/Amps. I feel that the difference between a crappy dell motherboard integrated sound and even a mid-range soundcard is drastically notable. Even my current Gigabyte DS3 motherboard's integrated sound isn't up to par with a Chaintech AV710 soundcard (which has a wolfson DAC chip), the difference in sound is very clear and audible. The integrated sound is very thin and has absolutely no bass, upon connecting my AV710 i could hear a marked increase in bass and fullness in the entire spectrum.
   
  Now, the difference between my AV710 and Sparrow is not as big a jump, but still notable and well worth it IMO. Whether this increase in sound quality is worth $200 is up to you to decide. But I feel what the Sparrow does for you is increase your options in terms of quality headphones since you are now able to drive them. The AV710 would not be able to drive the HD800 to even close what it is capable of, the Sparrow, although not as powerful as a dedicated full-size amp, can drive it with authority in my experience.
   
  the difference between a much more expensive DAC/Amp (think $500+) and the Sparrow is not as big a jump, and that may be what Carl is trying to get at. if Carl's motherboard has integrated sound on the level of my AV710 soundcard, which is very quite well possible, then i can see why he's not experience as big an improvement as he expected.


----------



## haloxt

When I am having a hard time telling between gear, I listen to some piano music, because pianos are very complex and can tell you a lot about your audio chain. If you think realtek HD onboard audio sounds good, listen to some piano music on it. And if that sounds good, I recommend you go to a music store with pianos and familiarize yourself with the sounds pianos make.
   
  I suspect that there are more people looking for "good sound" rather than "faithful sound", and an mp3 player can give good sound, just not faithful. I listen to mp3 players daily, and all you need is a good portable headphone to enjoy the music. But if you want to listen to faithfully reproduced music or you are someone who equates that with music enjoyment, you'd probably want more than an mp3 player.


----------



## Crazy*Carl

A dell mobo might have "crappy sound".  Alot of motherboards might.  But modern intel and asus motherboards which I have heard all sound very good.


----------



## Crazy*Carl

Quote: 





eraserxiv said:


> Whether this increase in sound quality is worth $200 is up to you to decide. But I feel what the Sparrow does for you is increase your options in terms of quality headphones since you are now able to drive them.


 

 Say what you want about driving headphones, but my ipod and intel high def audio drive my headphones as well as the Sparrow.


----------



## les_garten

Quote: 





muad said:


> Well if a colour blind person told me something is brown do I believe him when I can clearly see something is red?


 

 Got a true story dead on your point. 
   
  I knew a Doctor who bought a MG back in 1980.  He brought it around to the ER to show it off.  This was back when MG's came in a number of colors, one of them being DawgCrap Brown.
   
  Everybody congratulated him, and he mentioned he loved the color and that he had always wanted a British Racing Green MG.  A couple days later he mentioned this again and finally someone asked him, "I thought that Brown one was yours"?
   
  He was color blind, none of us knew it. Hilarity among the Staff ensued.  However,  it was forever gone, and I'm sure there was a terse conversation with the dealer about it.
   
  I would also question the Sanity of an Atheist attending Church services and complaining about the Philosophy Expounded.
   
  CrazyCarl, you came here, you mentioned your findings.
   
  You made a Thread, we all responded.
   
  Now you say it's all Hooey,  well, we let you have your say for some time now on that.  But now it's Trollish, even your MOM would tell you that, and we assume your MOM Loves you. 
   
  You really have no place here.
   
  Like the Church, we've turned the other Cheek a number of times now.
   
  But we've run out of cheeks to turn, and you're now a bore...
   
  You have your own thread you know...


----------



## EraserXIV

I think the point of a decent mid-fi DAC/Amp is to open up your headphone possibilities. like you said earlier, headphones are the main factor in terms of whether or not you're going to get good sound and i whole heartedly agree with that. a decent mid-fi DAC/Amp will allow you to choose from a much larger selection of headphones, including the harder to drive ones that tend to have better sound. for most people, a mid-fi amp is all that is needed for their uses and needs because it gives them these limitless headphone possibilities.
   
  on the other hand, there are audiophiles who like to adjust tweak the sound to their liking by switching between DACs/Amps (think tube rolling). but that's a whole different game and will only get you limited results -- it would not be as drastic as changing your headphone entirely (you cannot get a HD650 to sound like a Grado no matter how much you change your setup and vice versa). the tweaking by switching DACs/Amps is more for perfectionists I guess (read: audiophiles) and that's when you really start talking about diminishing returns. but hey, many people enjoy doing this as a hobby and who's to say there's something wrong with that. there are some people that who enjoy collecting postage stamps and although there may be no difference between one postage stamp or the other for you, to the collectors it's a big deal.


----------



## Crazy*Carl

Quote: 





eraserxiv said:


> I think the point of a decent mid-fi DAC/Amp is to open up your headphone possibilities. like you said earlier, headphones are the main factor in terms of whether or not you're going to get good sound and i whole heartedly agree with that. a decent mid-fi DAC/Amp will allow you to choose from a much larger selection of headphones, including the harder to drive ones that tend to have better sound. for most people, a mid-fi amp is all that is needed for their uses and needs because it gives them these limitless headphone possibilities.
> 
> on the other hand, there are audiophiles who like to adjust tweak the sound to their liking by switching between DACs/Amps (think tube rolling). but that's a whole different game and will only get you limited results -- it would not be as drastic as changing your headphone entirely (you cannot get a HD650 to sound like a Grado no matter how much you change your setup and vice versa). the tweaking by switching DACs/Amps is more for perfectionists I guess (read: audiophiles) and that's when you really start talking about diminishing returns. but hey, many people enjoy doing this as a hobby and who's to say there's something wrong with that. there are some people that who enjoy collecting postage stamps and although there may be no difference between one postage stamp or the other for you, to the collectors it's a big deal.


 

 But that is what my blind test shows.  My 300ohm HD580 was not improved at all from the Sparrow. Make all the analogies you want about cars and stamps, but audio is not that, at least for me.  I want clear sound, and the HD580 delivers better than anything I have ever heard, be it on an ipod or a Sparrow, it all sounds the same.  I wont believe amps do anything to headphone sound quality unless there is tangible evidence, i.e. a blind test.  If you guys are so confident that these amps do anything, then show me some results like I did!
   
  BTW, I rolled 3 types of tubes in the EF2 amp I had, and they never sounded any different.  Oh is it my hearing now? Was I not listening to the right music?  Whats the bitrate unacceptable?  Name all the excuses you want, but these devices are just not worth it.  I know a lot of people agree with me and I am sure I have made some people think twice about their supposed hi-fi gear.


----------



## haloxt

Carl, since you keep posting when apparently we're getting nowhere, I assume it is because you want advice. I suggest you go to a music store and play around with some musical instruments. There is no way in heck an ipod can reproduce all the nuances of real life instruments. Once you have a good memory of different instruments, you will likely be better able to appreciate what the sparrow offers.
   
  In some ways, there's big differences between different dac's and different amp's, and in some ways, there are negligible differences, but this depends highly on individual requirements. For some people, sound signature is far more important than technical performance, and for these people, I would say yes, diminishing returns may apply very quickly once you've got the sound signature you like. But if you're someone who likes to hear all the texture and nuances in each note, and likes every little cue that contributes to lifelike experience, it is not diminishing returns to keep upgrading, but you will be seen as crazy by most people . Luckily I think most of us are not very picky when it comes to raw technical performance, but everyone has a preferred sound signature, which they can achieve either through gear or music preferences.
   
  With that in mind, I'd warn people that the default sparrow's sound signature is neutral. If you like heavy music genres heard through rose-tinted glasses, you will be surprised when you get default ad1852 sparrow which is very neutral and gives you the original intent of a song. Angry heavy metal will sound exactly like angry heavy metal, assuming there's nothing else in your audio setup to color the sound. While using the sparrow, the songs that hit me over the head hardest was singer-songwriter type music like Donovan. Simplistic songs with very specific emotions is where I find neutral sound signature to really shine. Unfortunately, neutral also makes some of my past favorite recordings unlistenable, because some recordings are just poorly recorded, or the musicians were actually crazy, and I didn't realize it until I took off enough coloration in my audio setup.


----------



## EraserXIV

i'm not really one for swapping DACs and amps like many other people here (i'm content with a modest setup and i've only ever owned one amp), but if it's worth anything, when I replaced the DA1852 module for the DA8740 module I noticed a marked difference. 
   
  it was warmer, the highs not as sharp and the bass stronger. i did it overnight and my friend who had listened to it the day before asked me if i had made any modifications because she said the bass was stronger and the high notes were not as loud. no, she did not use any audiophile terms such as dark, laid-back, warm, etc, she just told me that the bass was stronger than yesterday and the high notes not as strong.
   
  i didn't even plan on making this a test or anything, i just swapped out the module for my own reasons and even though i didn't mention it to her, she still noticed it. so i wasn't the only one that heard it, you can't claim placebo effect on this one.


----------



## DDVX

Quote: 





crazy*carl said:


> BTW, I rolled 3 types of tubes in the EF2 amp I had, and they never sounded any different.  Oh is it my hearing now? Was I not listening to the right music?  Whats the bitrate unacceptable?  Name all the excuses you want, but these devices are just not worth it.  I know a lot of people agree with me and I am sure I have made some people think twice about their supposed hi-fi gear.


 

 If you really want to be taken seriously, you shouldn't dismiss variables that many people think are important. I can agree that I would feel that way if I had a similar experience to you, but so far I haven't. It's good to have both sides of an argument, but if you would be more reasonable and argue with logic instead of just emotion I think it would go a long way.


----------



## AVU

I see that the Audio-Gd Sparrow now has a single review, which says it's junk.  That's great.  So now all the newbies coming here will read that and say to themselves, well, this is obviously too inexpensive to be a decent DAC/amp combo, so I guess I have to spend $500+ to get anything even halfway decent.  Which, I believe, was exactly the opposite of what Carl was originally trying to do (get people to spend less.)


----------



## Crazy*Carl

My review does not say its junk.  I just say in on par with on board sound or an ipod - which sound good.
   
  I know alot of other people own it.  Add your reviews.


----------



## haloxt

Crazy*Carl, you say tube, solid state, onboard and $100+ equipment all have identical "good sound quality". But how do you define "good sound"? By how much the music moves you? Because an mp3 player can move you as emotionally as high fidelity gear, but it cannot accurately reproduce music. To know what accurate reproduction is, you must have a reference of either listening to real life music or a very high fidelity setup. No offense, but the way you write you sound like someone who has no interest in differences in accuracy or sound signature saying it's all the same, and it'd be true for someone who doesn't care about the sort of differences offered by different audio gear. But most people on head-fi do care about the sort of differences given by different equipment. Like I said before, there is no way an ipod can faithfully reproduce real life instruments, and if you call an ipod sound quality as good as the sparrow, it is obvious that you have little experience with what real life instruments sound like. Go play with some real life instruments, then you will not be drifting around without a reference point. Once you have a reference point for real sound I'm pretty sure you will like the sparrow better than an ipod.


----------



## Crazy*Carl

LOL, moves me... go cry me a river.
   
  It just sounds clear. 
   
  When I go from some headphones to the HD580, the difference is huge,
   
  Sparrow to ipod... none.


----------



## haloxt

How lifelike would you say an ipod sounds?


----------



## muad

Quote: 





> How lifelike would you say an ipod sounds?


 
   
  Seriously man don't waste you time...
   
  If we ignore him maybe he'll go away.


----------



## Crazy*Carl

Quote: 





haloxt said:


> How lifelike would you say an ipod sounds?


 

 As lifelike as the Sparrow


----------



## haloxt

Not everyone appreciates a hobby to the same degree, Carl. You may not like audio electronics, but many of us do. I had a grandmother who thought I was dumb because I couldn't tell between small shades of fabric colors without a side by side reference, but such visual discrimination and visual memory is a learned skill. The same with sound discernment, if you don't have a good memory of real life or high fidelity sound, you have no reference point, and I would highly recommend taking your ipod to an instrument music store and comparing the difference between ipod sound and real life sound.


----------



## les_garten

CrazyCarl proves what most of us have forgot.
   
  Listening to Audio Gear is learned, you're not born with it.
   
  It takes a lot of work before you can appreciate detail and subtlety.
   
  A lot of us had other people point out stuff to us in listening sessions in HiFi Shops or at other Audiophile's homes.  Not much of this done anymore.  The HiFi shop pretty much doesn't exist anymore with a few exceptions.  This was a good meeting place for like minded individuals of different listening skills to meet regularly. 
   
  I certainly remember when I could not hear what other people heard.
   
  But 10's of Thousands of hours later and the picture starts snapping into focus.You develop the skill of hearing.
   
  CC has reached the SoundCard level in his Audio Education.  Apparently he has "learned" to hear the difference between Soundcards and Tin cans.  We should applaud his progress...
   
  So CC should go away and Listen and Learn for 20 or 30 Thousand hours and get back with us...


----------



## Crazy*Carl

Quote: 





les_garten said:


> CrazyCarl proves what most of us have forgot.
> 
> Listening to Audio Gear is learned, you're not born with it.
> 
> It takes a lot of work before you can appreciate detail and subtlety.


 
  Not with headphones.  The difference is profound when using cheap ones then going to good ones.


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





avu said:


> I see that the Audio-Gd Sparrow now has a single review, which says it's junk.  That's great.  So now all the newbies coming here will read that and say to themselves, well, this is obviously too inexpensive to be a decent DAC/amp combo, so I guess I have to spend $500+ to get anything even halfway decent.  Which, I believe, was exactly the opposite of what Carl was originally trying to do (get people to spend less.)


 

 And I'm recommending this crappy unit to beginners because in pure engineering terms, at least it is a professionally engineered device.

  
  Quote: 





haloxt said:


> Not everyone appreciates a hobby to the same degree, Carl. You may not like audio electronics, but many of us do. I had a grandmother who thought I was dumb because I couldn't tell between small shades of fabric colors without a side by side reference, but such visual discrimination and visual memory is a learned skill. The same with sound discernment, if you don't have a good memory of real life or high fidelity sound, you have no reference point, and I would highly recommend taking your ipod to an instrument music store and comparing the difference between ipod sound and real life sound.


 

 Do us a favor Carl, and pick up a guitar and pluck some strings,  bang on the drum kit.  If you do this (no more bothersome than carrying out a blind test) we would all respect you findings.  Let us know how a real guitar, piano, or drums compare to the Ipod or the Sparrow for that matter.


----------



## Crazy*Carl

No, thats not my goal.  I just want very clear sounding music.  I don't need to go to lengths to try and prove that an "audiophile" device is marginally better than something cheap.
   
  But don't tell me that 300 ohm Sennheisers are gonna be so massively improved with a dedicated amp.  They are not.


----------



## SP Wild

That should be your goal.  Emulating reality is a large part of this hobby - this is not the hobby for you.
   
  Boost the treble, you phones sound clearer.  Let it be.


----------



## Crazy*Carl

Obviously!!!
   
  But I do highly appreciate good neutral headphones.


----------



## movi

could a moderator please prevent Crazy*Carl from further polluting the Sparrow thread? i'm having to sift through Crazy*Carl's pointless, off-topic posts to find information about the Sparrow. Crazy*Carl, go waste people's time with your useless findings in another thread, or better yet, on another forum. there should be a minimum age restriction for online forums like this so people like you can't waste my time.


----------



## superchan

omg how can sparrow + good headphone sound like a iPod 
  go listing  to real life action music  then you will hear that the sparrow is closer to real life sound there your iPod ???


----------



## loveholic

Carl, you should get the k701 for your next headphone purchase.


----------



## Crazy*Carl

Quote: 





movi said:


> could a moderator please prevent Crazy*Carl from further polluting the Sparrow thread? i'm having to sift through Crazy*Carl's pointless, off-topic posts to find information about the Sparrow. Crazy*Carl, go waste people's time with your useless findings in another thread, or better yet, on another forum. there should be a minimum age restriction for online forums like this so people like you can't waste my time.


 

 Someone is a little angry.  So I cant post my opinion?  I have actual tests results unlike most people.
   
  I'm 23 btw, not a child.
   
  Im sorry your so sore about wasting your precious money.


----------



## Crazy*Carl

Quote: 





superchan said:


> omg how can sparrow + good headphone sound like a iPod
> go listing  to real life action music  then you will hear that the sparrow is closer to real life sound there your iPod ???


 

 I failed blind testing.  You can't argue against that.  They sound the exact same to me.
   
  Some really cranky audiophools in here.


----------



## les_garten

Quote: 





crazy*carl said:


> I failed blind testing.  You can't argue against that.  They sound the exact same to me.
> 
> Some really cranky audiophools in here.


 

 Some people can't tell the difference between Chinese, Japanese, Korean, and Thai.
   
  Are they the same?
   
  They all sound alike to the ignorant...


----------



## Zink

Back on topic. Does anyone have a Sparrow yet who can share their impressions so far about the sparrow compared to some of their other equipment. You don't have to wait a month and post a giant review, I was more interested in how the sparrow B compares to something like $130 Musiland Moniter 02. I would be using DT880 250 but any comparison would be good.


----------



## Crazy*Carl

Quote: 





zink said:


> Back on topic. Does anyone have a Sparrow yet who can share their impressions so far about the sparrow compared to some of their other equipment. You don't have to wait a month and post a giant review, I was more interested in how the sparrow B compares to something like $130 Musiland Moniter 02. I would be using DT880 250 but any comparison would be good.


 

 Sure.  I also wrote a review of the Sparrow on head-fi.
   
  http://www.head-fi.org/products/audio-gd-sparrow-dac/reviews
   
  I conducted a blind AB test with the ipod and sparrow, and I failed it. 
   
  The Sparrow sounds very good, but then again so does my ipod and onboard sound with HD580.  Would everyone fail this blind test? I dunno, but I did.
   
  I am probably one of the few who have actually blind tested the Sparrow, and I think my opinion should not just be cast away because I don't rave about it.  Don't accuse me of being a troll.  I am posting my opinion which is even based on test data.  It is very easy to trick yourself when listening.  I have done it many times.  When you actually hear something through a blind test, you eliminate all bias and placebo.


----------



## gbacic

No you don't. If you are expecting them to sound the same then you will most likely hear no difference.
  Just because a test is blind doesn't mean there is no bias.


----------



## Zink

Oh, hey Carl, you do have a Sparrow don't you? I  kind of forgot about that. Thank you for contributing your opinion, I will not just cast it way because you aren't raving. I too find listening to music through my ipod to be very enjoyable.


----------



## DDVX

You are being a troll because you are posting on every thread about the sparrow. You have your thread. Stay in it. I listened to my D2000's yesterday and noticed a CLEAR difference between them and my receiver. You've posted your findings from here to kingdom come. We've all read it. No need to beat a dead horse. Oh, and you might be 23, but you act like you're 14.


----------



## LarsMonsen

I would like to bump my question, hopefully getting this thread back on right track
  
  Quote: 





larsmonsen said:


> Has anyone got any experience with the sparrow along with AKG K701? I'm thinking about buying K701, but I'm unsure whether my sparrow will be sufficient for these cans? I've read lots about how difficult they are to amp.


----------



## tim3320070

Enough, end this circle debate. Wasting this thread completely. Stop responding to him and it ends.
*Back to Sparrow discussions please!*


----------



## miyinan

It's been about a month since I have my Sparrow B.  To me, it is clearly a step up from my uDac. I have listened to it using my hd580s (600grill and 650cable) and MS1is. The improvement was very noticeable. More importantly, it opens up your options of better headphones. In another word, it could make you spend more money...lol.
   
  By the way, I didn't do any "serious" blind test as CC did. There is another "popular" thread for that. What I did for comparison was just switching back and forth between the uDac and the Sparrow with volume match, and that's it.
   
  Lee


----------



## numbskull

So, about exchanging modules, you need to solder something, or its just like "plug and play"?


----------



## EraserXIV

plug and play, no soldering


----------



## Currawong

If Carl continues to troll this thread, just report each post using the red flag bottom left.  Don't reply to him.


----------



## Zink

If I continue to write posts mentioning Carl he will tell us that he conducted a double blind test and could not hear the difference between the sparrow and an ipod.


----------



## AVU

Everyone should remember the synergy between components is very important.  So talking about a DAC/Headphone amp in isolation is not as helpful as discussing the complete chain with Headphones/IEMs.


----------



## Kayk

I brought my Macbook + Audio-gd Sparrow + Denon D2000 setup to CanJam a few weeks ago. It certainly wasn't the most impressive setup I saw that day, but the people that listened to it (that I talked to) all agreed the Sparrow was an impressive little box.


----------



## bixby

Okay!  23 pages of "thoughts"  on the Sparrow and I am no closer to understanding how it might do in an above average speaker based system.  I know this is headfi...........and occasionally though we do get some folks with nice main or office speaker based systems to chime in.
   
  Id did get a conflicting idea on how it sounds with headphones and with some onboard cards and ipods.
   
  We all are looking for value, right. 
   
  My question is how does it do in a system using aif files or also with jittery sources like Apple tv into a good amp and speaker setup?
   
  Or do we just dismiss the lower end AudioGD stuff and have to move to the DAC 19 dsp1?


----------



## les_garten

Quote: 





bixby said:


> Okay!  23 pages of "thoughts"  on the Sparrow and I am no closer to understanding how it might do in an above average speaker based system.  I know this is headfi...........and occasionally though we do get some folks with nice main or office speaker based systems to chime in.
> 
> Id did get a conflicting idea on how it sounds with headphones and with some onboard cards and ipods.
> 
> ...


 
   
   
  All of KW's gear are well built and great bang for the buck.
   
  The higher end gear is more neutral and possesses an Inky black background.  Very ghost like.  I think his gear is good for what "it doesn't do".
   
  I have a Sparrow and it makes a great Inexpensive DAC/HEADAMP/Pre-Amp combo box.
   
   
  Sounds like you are trying to do a DAC/PRE on the cheap.  It fills that slot nicely.
   
  It will not be a REF1/C-3 though.
   
  I use my stuff for headphones though.
   
  My office speakers take a digital signal and have digital amps built in, so I don't use the A-GD gear with them.


----------



## haloxt

I have tried sparrow preamp out as lineout to ~$1000 speakers and $200 computer speakers, it sounds good, but compared to my dac19mk3 rca out, it doesn't have as much soundstage detail/depth or timbre variety and can feel compressed in complex passages, but it does have a powerful sound. Compared to compass, the sparrow is quite more detailed and accurate, but compass dac out has the advantage of being a little more natural and emotive.
   
  If timbre variety, low volume ambient detail and distinct instruments are important to you, I'd say consider the dac19dsp. If you just want clear and fast macro-detail, good soundstage, some texture, and powerful drive, sparrow may be all you need. I personally wouldn't worry too much about the apple tv's jitter, from what I read people say it is a decent transport. There's things you could try to improve your transport, but it'll probably be trial and error. If you're worried about transport quality, and you happen to like timbre/ambient detail a lot, I'd say get the dac19dsp.


----------



## bixby

Les and Halo thanks for the additional info.  I am glad to read that better speakers can fly with the sparrow.  The reasons I am asking is that I have read lots of impressions on forums that turn out to be a "little inexperienced"  especially when dealing with lower priced gear.
   
  I did get a chance to listen to the Compass at 2009 LA Canjam and felt let down by its performance with Senn 650s.  At least to me my Benchmark drove them better and with much better detail and accuracy.  Hence my hesitation especially after reading that the Compass was a great bargain DAC / Amp.
   
  Maybe I can get one of the locals to bring a Fun or Sparrow to the Denver meet in August.  It sounds as though I may also have to seek out a DAC 19 with DSP as well.
   
  thanks again!


----------



## cravenz

Quote: 





haloxt said:


> I have tried sparrow preamp out as lineout to ~$1000 speakers and $200 computer speakers, it sounds good, but compared to my dac19mk3 rca out, it doesn't have as much soundstage detail/depth or timbre variety and can feel compressed in complex passages, but it does have a powerful sound. Compared to compass, the sparrow is quite more detailed and accurate, but compass dac out has the advantage of being a little more natural and emotive.
> 
> If timbre variety, low volume ambient detail and distinct instruments are important to you, I'd say consider the dac19dsp. If you just want clear and fast macro-detail, good soundstage, some texture, and powerful drive, sparrow may be all you need. I personally wouldn't worry too much about the apple tv's jitter, from what I read people say it is a decent transport. There's things you could try to improve your transport, but it'll probably be trial and error. If you're worried about transport quality, and you happen to like timbre/ambient detail a lot, I'd say get the dac19dsp.


 

 ouch now I gotta consider this. the only dac I have at the moment is the D10 unfortunately, and if what I'm reading is correct, an upgrade asap is going to be in order e.g. when I listened to Hoobastank, and when it hit the chorus, everything just sounded mashed up. I ain't sure if it's the production or the dac, but if I read the first paragraph right re: complex passages, then it will be down to the dac. wish the dsp would drop it's price to be a lil' more affordable for a student lol.


----------



## haloxt

Pop is my favorite genre, sadly pretty much all I have is recorded poorly with voices sounding like robots and have horrible soundstage. You can see the total dynamic range of a song with the offline version of this program, have to convert flac to wav though. For heavy pop, 6-7 should be the lowest dynamic range, if 4-5, it is very likely overcompressed, but this is just a general rule of thumb, some instruments like drums can cause the DR score to plummet when it actually isn't overcompressed.
   
  http://www.pleasurizemusic.com/es/es/download
   
  My guess is that your hoobastank song is just compressed, and probably has little soundstage anyway just like most modern pop :/. One album I think is almost as fun as pop music, but can tell you how good your soundstage is, is Sarah Brightman's 1995 album "Surrender". Most of her albums are overcompressed and she sounds like some bright hissy demon .


----------



## nManJofo

Just ordered mine, version A with USB. This is going to be my very first DAC/AMP, so I'm looking forward.


----------



## haloxt

Hope you like it, and do share listening impressions even if they aren't positive .
   
  And I just recently found out, there's actually a 2x or 4x oversampling jumper on the ad1852 dac module just like for the audio-gd FUN. It's supposed to make it less harsh or something like that.


----------



## EraserXIV

which one is this setting on? http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/Headphoneamp/FUN/DA1852.jpg


----------



## haloxt

That's 4x oversampling. Default for my module was 2x.


----------



## cravenz

Quote: 





haloxt said:


> Pop is my favorite genre, sadly pretty much all I have is recorded poorly with voices sounding like robots and have horrible soundstage. You can see the total dynamic range of a song with the offline version of this program, have to convert flac to wav though. For heavy pop, 6-7 should be the lowest dynamic range, if 4-5, it is very likely overcompressed, but this is just a general rule of thumb, some instruments like drums can cause the DR score to plummet when it actually isn't overcompressed.
> 
> http://www.pleasurizemusic.com/es/es/download
> 
> My guess is that your hoobastank song is just compressed, and probably has little soundstage anyway just like most modern pop :/. One album I think is almost as fun as pop music, but can tell you how good your soundstage is, is Sarah Brightman's 1995 album "Surrender". Most of her albums are overcompressed and she sounds like some *bright hissy demon *.


 
   
  that last bit made me lol


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Sarah "Bright"man 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Peete.


----------



## cravenz

p.s. the hoobastank song had a dynamic range of 4 lol


----------



## haloxt

If you don't have many well recorded cd's, you should try www.magnatune.com . Only $45 for 3 months of download membership for many hundreds of independent musician albums in wav, flac and lossy formats. Imo good quality music on a good mp3 player is more enjoyable than very overcompressed music on hi-fi equipment.


----------



## cravenz

Quote: 





haloxt said:


> If you don't have many well recorded cd's, you should try www.magnatune.com . Only $45 for 3 months of download membership for many hundreds of independent musician albums in wav, flac and lossy formats. Imo good quality music on a good mp3 player is more enjoyable than very overcompressed music on hi-fi equipment.


 

 I'd pay that gladly if there wasn't a cap limit as to how much I can download here in Australia. It's stupidly ridiculous here


----------



## Ypoknons

Try looking at their waveforms in an editing program or foobar's default visualizer, the clipped songs are pretty obvious. All that music 
   
(edited - editing program not ending program. I need... to... proofread)


----------



## Currawong

Roughly speaking, with the Sparrow, you're not going to get the wide soundstage, especially with demanding music, that you will out of the C2 or another good mid-range amp and the DAC wont be as resolving as a high-end one, but to get the soundstage and resolution, you'll be spending at least 2.5x the cost or more to get those things.  Upgrading the default DAC OPAMP can be done cheaply as well, improving its performance noticeably.


----------



## Cya|\|

So, is it possible to change opamp on the sparrow? I saw the official page some days ago, and the only opamp that were described, were the ones for the dc coupling. There was also written that they don't need to be changed.
  I'd really like to put a burson discrete one in the sparrow if possible, to increase the dac quality, and maybe get nearer to a highend dac.


----------



## Currawong

CyaN: I can't see an OPAMP in there.  Maybe the DAC directly feeds the ACSS stage? You'd need to get the Fun at least.  I'm pondering getting a Burson OPAMP just to try it.  I doubt the difference will be that major, as, even though the Earth, for example, is better than the OPAMPs I've tried, it wasn't a huge difference.  Maybe the differences will be more noticeable doing something like upgrading an old, high-end DAC or CDP.


----------



## EraserXIV

From what I can gather, the Sparrow directly feeds the DAC into the ACSS and right out to the headphone out and does not color it or try to process it in any way with an opamp in the path. This is similar to the Audio-GD C2 when it runs in the ACSS mode which bypasses the built in opamps and feeds directly from DAC -> ACSS -> Headphone out. This apparently gives you a really clear and true to source signal.
   
  Correct me if I am wrong, but this is what I gather from reading the information on the website.


----------



## roker

I was thinking of getting the basic version so I can power my D2000s for use with my TV and videogame systems (optical).  Am I making a good choice or is this overkill for videogames and TV?  Otherwise I had my sights set on a basic portable amp (forget the dac).


----------



## Ruffle

Quote: 





roker said:


> I was thinking of getting the basic version so I can power my D2000s for use with my TV and videogame systems (optical).  Am I making a good choice or is this overkill for videogames and TV?  Otherwise I had my sights set on a basic portable amp (forget the dac).


 

 To each their own.  I personally like using the soundcard for games.  So even if I have a external dac/amp, I don't use it for gaming.  Maybe for movies?


----------



## roker

Quote: 





ruffle said:


> To each their own.  I personally like using the soundcard for games.  So even if I have a external dac/amp, I don't use it for gaming.  Maybe for movies?


 
   
  I plan on using it with my Xbox and TV, so a soundcard is NOT an option.  I'm not much for PC gaming.


----------



## shampoosuicide

Guys, I'm getting a pair of Audioengine A2 for a separate setup soon, and want to get a DAC to go along with it. Would the Sparrow be up to snuff for the task? And would the DAC-19 be overkill for the A2?
   
  Thanks!


----------



## haloxt

How many feet away is the speakers going to be from where your dac19 currently is? I know long cables are bad, but... may be worth a try and would cost less than getting multiple dac's .
   
  For example, 50 feet pair of analog rca cables here
   
  http://www.amazon.com/Cables-Go-29703-Sonicwave-Audio/dp/B0001FC5I4/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=musical-instruments&qid=1277732389&sr=8-2


----------



## shampoosuicide

Quote: 





haloxt said:


> How many feet away is the speakers going to be from where your dac19 currently is? I know long cables are bad, but... may be worth a try and would cost less than getting multiple dac's .
> 
> For example, 50 feet pair of analog rca cables here
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Cables-Go-29703-Sonicwave-Audio/dp/B0001FC5I4/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=musical-instruments&qid=1277732389&sr=8-2


 

 I'll be studying overseas, so I intend to either take my DAC-19 with me, or acquire a Sparrow. I know I could bring my entire headphone setup over, especially considering that the AD2000 are likely superior to the A2, but for various reasons I would prefer a speaker setup.
   
  Seeing as you have both, in your opinion, would the Sparrow be a good match for the A2?


----------



## haloxt

Just travel around with your dac19 .
   
  What dac19 has over sparrow is soundstage and timbre, and imo speakers are less forgiving than headphones for these two things. With ad1852, it may seem like the sparrow has too firm a hold on timbre modulation, so if you decide to get a sparrow for use with monitor speakers, I would suggest also getting the wm8740 chip, or just the wm8740 chip if you don't care very much for detail, just want a laid back emotional sound.


----------



## miyinan

I am trying to get a pair of DT880 and deciding between the 250ohm version and the 600ohm version. Of course, the 600ohm is a better phone, but will my Sparrow be able to drive them well? cuz if not, I think I'd be better getting the 250ohm version.
   
  Thanks
   
  Lee


----------



## AVU

I seriously think you'd be crazy to take a large DAC and separate amp to study overseas.  The Sparrow is surely 90% of the larger unit anyway - you'll never tell the difference with all the wine.


----------



## haloxt

If you have to travel back and forth a lot it may be better to get the sparrow instead, it's also ~1/5th the size of a dac19 so no issues carrying it on a plane.
   
  I won't comment on just what % the sparrow is compared to dac19 since everyone has individual requirements out of their audio gear. If you aren't picky about sound quality, you may like the sparrow just fine despite having used dac19+c2c. If you're very picky, you might come back on the thread and flame me to death for suggesting getting a sparrow instead of dragging your dac19 abroad.


----------



## les_garten

Quote: 





avu said:


> I seriously think you'd be *crazy* to take a large DAC and separate amp to study overseas.  The Sparrow is surely 90% of the larger unit anyway - you'll never tell the difference with all the wine.


 

 "Crazy is as Crazy does"  - Forest Gump's Idiot Brother, circa 1990
   
  You're right about the Wine, it'll make an iPod sound good!


----------



## Elanzer

Well, I got ahold of my Sparrow today finally (ordered it June 2nd). I got the basic model with USB.
   
  I don't know what Crazy Carl is smoking, but there's an overwhelming difference in sound in comparison with my DT 990 250ohm versus my Xonar DX sound card. This one album I recently got I was listening to on loop for a couple days now while gaming and it's sound was incredibly familiar to me, and firing it up with the amp I was shocked at the difference (I was honestly expecting very little, as I thought my DT 990s were driven very well by my Xonar). It did sound like I had lost bass at first, until I listened to some DnB and realized the same bass quantity was there, the mids seem to have picked up with the amp - removing the one imbalance qualm I had with the DT 990s. The difference reminds me of how dramatic it was going from onboard to the xonar, everything has opened up alot more and separates better.
   
  I tried the Sparrow with my other headphones (AKG K-240 MKII, and Alessandro MS-1), while the K-240s experienced the same changes the DT 990s did (more mid, seemingly less bass but still in same quantity), my MS-1s did not sound different at all.
   
  At first I had it hooked up by TOSLink to the Xonar, but due to some issues with the Xonar drivers and the fact that the mic port is shared with it I ended up just using USB. Budget headphone amp/dac combos like the Sparrow just make all kinds of sound cards obsolete if you only use headphones. Being that units like the FUN and Sparrow are just so competitive, I don't think I can ever recommend a sound card to someone again.


----------



## les_garten

Quote: 





elanzer said:


> Well, I got ahold of my Sparrow today finally (ordered it June 2nd). I got the basic model with USB.
> 
> I don't know what Crazy Carl is smoking, but there's an overwhelming difference in sound in comparison with my DT 990 250ohm versus my Xonar DX sound card. This one album I recently got I was listening to on loop for a couple days now while gaming and it's sound was incredibly familiar to me, and firing it up with the amp I was shocked at the difference (I was honestly expecting very little, as I thought my DT 990s were driven very well by my Xonar). It did sound like I had lost bass at first, until I listened to some DnB and realized the same bass quantity was there, the mids seem to have picked up with the amp - removing the one imbalance qualm I had with the DT 990s. The difference reminds me of how dramatic it was going from onboard to the xonar, everything has opened up alot more and separates better.
> 
> ...


 
   
   
  Glad you're happy with it.  The Sparrow is a cool little box.  Even if you use speakers, the Sparrow gets the job done with the adapter which does Line level signal out to your amped/active computer speakers.  So you're right, with the USB, who needs the SC.


----------



## numbskull

Quote: 





miyinan said:


> I am trying to get a pair of DT880 and deciding between the 250ohm version and the 600ohm version. Of course, the 600ohm is a better phone, but will my Sparrow be able to drive them well? cuz if not, I think I'd be better getting the 250ohm version.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Lee


 

 Same thing with me, but i want the DT 990 instead. Haloxt said people with compass were able to drive the beyers, so sparrow would be almost the same, or the same thing. Anyway, i hope someone with a sparrow and any 600 ohm beyer can give some info here


----------



## Ypoknons

When I studied overseas, I started with a Headroom Micro + HD595 but eventually scaled down to IEMs only. I just couldn't justify bringing a big pack of headphones and hifi gear whenever I switched dorms, and life was super-social anyways so I didn't need personal music unless on the streets, plus my hair had to look good just in case some chick dropped by.


----------



## cheesetogo

I'd be curious to hear some impressions of people with the DT880s and the Sparrow as well. I've been thinking about picking up the beyers for a while now.


----------



## anoobis

Not Sparrow specific, just wondering if anyone could answer a few questions about ordering. I have emailed Audio-gd but I think something's getting lost in translation.
   
  Are both DHL and EMS currently available? I tried asking for a quote with DHL but got given EMS...
   
  Has anyone been sent an invoice through paypal, at which point you've paid, or do you always send money then get a receipt?
   
  Does Audio-gd usually put the actual price on the shipping invoice (for customs) or, er, not?
   
  Hopefully getting one soon 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 but I am struggling for prompt responses atm 
   
  No idea what headphone smiley I picked there but we should have amp smilies too.


----------



## EraserXIV

You usually just send them an e-mail detailing them everything you want. Then they total it up on their end and give you a quote. You then send the payment to their paypal account and they start building it. You can specify which shipping service you want, EMS or DHL. If they gave you a quote with EMS, just send them an e-mail again saying you want DHL and they'll give you the revised amount


----------



## anoobis

Turns out both shipping options are available but Audio-gd thinks DHL is much more likely to add customs charges. I don't know how they're going to label it


----------



## cheesetogo

My sparrow had a listed value of $50 on the customs paperwork.


----------



## Elanzer

Same here, was valued as $50 on the paperwork. They will drive the 600ohm DT880/DT990 very well I think, based on how well it drives my DT 990 250ohm. I only ever have the volume at about 40% on the amp itself, at 100% I can use the cans as speakers (suprisingly, -very- clear and no distortion at this volume). Since the 600ohm DT 880/990 are not that much harder to drive, I can't see it being a problem.


----------



## Cya|\|

Hey guys, i've just posted on the fun thread what kingwa replied me. If i understood correctly, the sparrow is like the fun with the earth opamp. Here's what he said:
   
Sparrow is like the FUN install the OPA-EARTH,but FUN can install the OPA-MOON,and OPA-SUN too,and FUN is more functions than the Sparrow.
Best Regards
Edwin


----------



## anoobis

Quote: 





cheesetogo said:


> My sparrow had a listed value of $50 on the customs paperwork.


 

 Happy days


----------



## movi

Quote: 





cya|\| said:


> Hey guys, i've just posted on the fun thread what kingwa replied me. If i understood correctly, the sparrow is like the fun with the earth opamp. Here's what he said:
> 
> Sparrow is like the FUN install the OPA-EARTH,but FUN can install the OPA-MOON,and OPA-SUN too,and FUN is more functions than the Sparrow.
> Best Regards
> Edwin


 

 thats good to know. cuz people have been raving so much about the FUN with Earth op-amp. IIRC, the Earth was the most neutral sounding with good bass response


----------



## les_garten

Quote: 





movi said:


> thats good to know. cuz people have been raving so much about the FUN with Earth op-amp. IIRC, the Earth was the most neutral sounding with good bass response


 

 The SUN and MOON can be interesting, but over the long run, most come back to the Earth.  It's kinda like Cotton Candy, you can't eat it everyday!


----------



## tim3320070

My 7 year old would disagree on that.


----------



## les_garten

Quote: 





tim3320070 said:


> My 7 year old would disagree on that.


 

 Heh!  I stand corrected!
   
  n.b. do not apply those OPA rules to 7 year olds...


----------



## rinthe

so how does the sparrow work with the AKG K701? anyone have this combination? is it enough to drive the k701, is the sound stage good?


----------



## Currawong

My Sparrow A arrived and I've had a bit of a play.  Nice and clear-sounding out of the box. Having just compared the old and new USB inputs on the Fun, the Tenor chip seems to make a small improvement, resulting in a slightly smoother, less harsh sound.  It's not unpleasant driving my HD-800s either, though is a little fatiguing. Also too, the soundstage etc. isn't anywhere near as good as a mid-range dedicated amp and it wont do justice to say, Shpongle or anything complex.  I understand why other manufacturers use the WM8740 in low-end gear, as the slight treble roll-off masks the lack of linearity in the treble and makes listening less fatiguing.   Overall though, it's closer to what I originally intended in concept, if not entirely in spec, when I asked Audio-gd to make an entry-level piece of gear.


----------



## les_garten

Quote: 





currawong said:


> My Sparrow A arrived and I've had a bit of a play.  Nice and clear-sounding out of the box. Having just compared the old and new USB inputs on the Fun, the Tenor chip seems to make a small improvement, resulting in a slightly smoother, less harsh sound.  It's not unpleasant driving my HD-800s either, though is a little fatiguing. Also too, the soundstage etc. isn't anywhere near as good as a mid-range dedicated amp and it wont do justice to say, Shpongle or anything complex.  I understand why other manufacturers use the WM8740 in low-end gear, as the slight treble roll-off masks the lack of linearity in the treble and makes listening less fatiguing.   Overall though, it's closer to what I originally intended in concept, if not entirely in spec, when I asked Audio-gd to make an entry-level piece of gear.


 
   
   
  Ditto.  He definitely nailed it with the Sparrow.


----------



## anoobis

Don't have a decent connection, so I'll have to ignore any catching up on posts for the moment. I'm waiting for a unit to be dispatched but have been asked whether I want to upgrade to ALPS27 for $10 (+ currency conversion + paypal). Is it worth it on a basic version?


----------



## les_garten

The Alps 27 is not a bad POT.  I don't know the brand of those Black ones he also uses.  If it were me, I would upgrade it.  He uses his POTs in a shunt configuration usually, so it is "OK" maybe to use a cheaper POT.


----------



## Crazy*Carl

HEAD-FI SNAKE OIL WARNING!!!
   
  Do not buy the Sparrow.  It will not sound any different than your ipod.


----------



## AVU

Quote: 





anoobis said:


> Don't have a decent connection, so I'll have to ignore any catching up on posts for the moment. I'm waiting for a unit to be dispatched but have been asked whether I want to upgrade to ALPS27 for $10 (+ currency conversion + paypal). Is it worth it on a basic version?


 

 the answer is yes.  especially if your headphones are not high impedance.


----------



## AVU

Quote:


crazy*carl said:


> HEAD-FI SNAKE OIL WARNING!!!
> 
> Do not buy the Sparrow.  It will not sound any different than your ipod.


 

 CARL!  STOP!  C'mon, the amp is not "snake oil".  It's a very decent dac / amp that will not necessarily sound noticably better than your soundcard if your soundcard is good and capable of driving your headphones adequately.  
   
  I actually found a post the other day that I wanted to sent to you - I just can't find it now, but it totally epitomized everything you've been saying (much of which I actually agree with) - and I wanted you to see it.
   
  Basically, it was a discussion of an S/PDIF converter, which is something that only makes a tiny difference and even then only if you have very high end hear - i.e., $1000 amp + $1000 dac, etc. (supposedly).  Anyway, in the middle of this discussion, someone - I think he was from Empiricial Audio, but maybe he was just some poor shmo who had bought their snakeoil and wanted to justify his poor judgment to others - said something to the effect of:
   
  The cheapest S/PDIF cable you can expect decent quality from is $500/m.  
   
  I was just blown away by the utter insanity of the comment, and went to look up the company, and indeed, a 3m length will set you back $800 plus tax and shipping.
   
  For one RCA cable.  
   
  http://www.empiricalaudio.com/cables/digital-interconnects
   
  pretty amazing given that you can now buy a bit-perfect stereo field recorder with amazing AD-DA conversion and much else for around that much!
   
  But seriously, there is so much potential 'snakeoil' all over head-fi to warn people about, why on earth bother with anything that costs less than $200?  You've got hundreds of people buying TWAG cables for IEMs that are the price of the IEMs themselves.  You've got people saying that TOSLINK sounds like "utter rubbish" compared to RCA, which itself sounds "bad" compared to BNC - all of which is quite likely about 100x greater BS than anything ever claimed about the Sparrow or any other Audio-gd product.


----------



## les_garten

Quote: 





crazy*carl said:


> HEAD-FI SNAKE OIL WARNING!!!
> 
> Do not buy the Sparrow.  It will not sound any different than your ipod.


 

 Looks like the Circus is back in Town!
   
  The Clown show looks to be awesome...


----------



## AVU

Also, just to put another word in the "Audio-Gd is not selling snakeoil" category, I was about to buy Qinghua's new DSP-3 Digital Connector for $150.  I probably would have gotten it, paired it with the Sparrow, thought it wasn't as much an improvement as I had hoped, but not wanted to spend the money and effort to ship all the way back to china or put up for sale and just kept it, probably growing to like it over time due to placebo.  
   
Qinghua specifically told me that it wasn't a good pairing with the Sparrow, because the sparrow wasn't high-end gear, and that it would be nearly impossible to hear any improvement.  So far from just trying to sell anyone anything, he specifically unsold me on something I was already about to buy and lost $150 in the process.  That's an honest dealer in my book.


----------



## tim3320070

Quote: 





crazy*carl said:


> HEAD-FI SNAKE OIL WARNING!!!
> 
> Do not buy the Sparrow.  It will not sound any different than your ipod.


 

 zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz


----------



## Cya|\|

Quote: 





crazy*carl said:


> HEAD-FI SNAKE OIL WARNING!!!
> 
> Do not buy the Sparrow.  It will not sound any different than your ipod.


 

 AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH


----------



## Currawong

He's a funny guy.  The question is, which iPod?  All my iPods sound slightly different, at least tonally.
   
  Anyway, a more interesting thing is, while I've been waiting for some drivers from a certain Canadian, I've had a friend's pair of HF-1s here. I found them a surprisingly good match with the Sparrow.  Slightly annoyingly, I often have to restart iTunes every time I switch to and from the Sparrow's TE7022 USB input, as it doesn't play as nicely with Mac OS X as the regular TI chips do.


----------



## Crazy*Carl

Im funny? lol
   
  You guys are the funny ones for believing all this crap!


----------



## haloxt

You're funny because you speak like you're absolutely correct when actually people with your perspective are in a very small minority. Consider, all those semiconductor companies making new audio chips all the time  have been wasting their time, all those mp3 player makers choosing new components to improve sound quality when they already had the best right under their nose. I mean, everything sounds the same! My father also sounds like my mother I can't tell the difference when blindfolded. I can't even tell if they are in front of me or behind me it is all the same.


----------



## numbskull

So, Sparrow support ASIO or i will have to emulate it with ASIO4ALL? Will it make a difference in sound (using basic version)?


----------



## DDVX

Quote: 





crazy*carl said:


> Im funny? lol
> 
> You guys are the funny ones for believing all this crap!


 

 You're funny because instead of just leaving the hobby, you choose to waste your time coming to this website where no one is paying your thoughts any attention.


----------



## haloxt

Quote: 





numbskull said:


> So, Sparrow support ASIO or i will have to emulate it with ASIO4ALL? Will it make a difference in sound (using basic version)?


 

 You would have to use either ASIO4ALL, USB-audio (not free), KS, or WASAPI to try to get bit-perfect output into the sparrow. The simplest is to use Kernal Streaming plug-in with foobar 1.0. I think it does make a good difference, and it's not that hard to bypass the windows kmixer.


----------



## Currawong

Quote: 





crazy*carl said:


> Im funny? lol
> 
> You guys are the funny ones for believing all this crap!


 
   
  I guess all the actual electronic measurements showing differences between DAPs and other gear are all crap too?  Just face it, that your hearing is not good (and you proved it yourself!) and stop blaming other people for it. You've saved yourself a lot money and you should be happy. Claiming that what affects you applies to everyone else, however, is very much a lie closer to your idea of "crap".


----------



## anoobis

Quote: 





crazy*carl said:


> HEAD-FI SNAKE OIL WARNING!!!
> 
> Do not buy the Sparrow.  It will not sound any different than your ipod.


 

 I'm fairly sure it will, given I don't have an ipod 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  I've also just thrown more money away on the ALPS27 upgrade. Apparently the response is more suited to audio applications (logarithmic?) and I decided that for a $10 part, I may as well reduce potential channel imbalance. It may not have been a problem but I had no way to know.


----------



## Crazy*Carl

ROFL my hearing isnt good! haha
  More excuses from the golden ears audiophooles.  You guys will use ANYTHING  to justify your wasted expenses on audio.  Besides, its pretty common knowledge that audiophile myths are false.  Wake up.  I know many of you disagree with everything I say.  But alot of newer people are prolly wondering what all this is about.  I am trying to save their Wallets and time. Spread the truth.


----------



## Cya|\|

Quote: 





crazy*carl said:


> ROFL my hearing isnt good! haha
> More excuses from the golden ears audiophooles.  You guys will use ANYTHING  to justify your wasted expenses on audio.  Besides, its pretty common knowledge that audiophile myths are false.  Wake up.  I know many of you disagree with everything I say.  But alot of newer people are prolly wondering what all this is about.  I am trying to save their Wallets and time. Spread the truth.


 

 AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!


----------



## miyinan

Anyone with experience driving K701/2 with the Sparrow? Good synergy?
   
  Thanks


----------



## tim3320070

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *Crazy*Carl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> BLIND
> science
> ...


----------



## haloxt

I'm blind I can see


----------



## miyinan

What is this official thread for?! Can we focus on discussion related to the Sparrow? Please.


----------



## Currawong

Just report his posts using the orange flag if you feel they are just trolling.


----------



## anoobis

Heh, Crazy*Carl's post slagging me off seems to have been edited/deleted. Well, Carl, clearly you missed the irony, or maybe you just wanted to reiterate your point.
   
  Without wishing to derail the thread further, I'd like to thank Crazy*Carl for his reviews and insights, which I'm sure have been useful advice to some, but remind him that people have their own reasons for, and requirements from, purchases and, as it is a hobby, may simply wish to make up their own minds. For instance, an ipod is not necessarily a cheaper or more suitable solution for everyone. It is good to read down-to-earth comments about equipment (please continue OTHER reviews) but not unsolicited disparaging posts ad nauseum, it is not a crusade.


----------



## Crazy*Carl

Truth = trolling on Head-fi.  After all, it is a big forum designed to advertise equipment, and I am reducing that capital.  Just look at the number of advertisements, especially with the "new" head-fi.  And boy does it work!
   
  I just find it funny, that I am the one person who did blind tests with the sparrow. I even got this thread renamed.  Everyone elses reviews of the sparrow are just based of what they think they hear.  So I am the Troll?
   
  I know my posts are working somewhat.  I have had my Sparrow posted for 2 months and still no one has bought it.  I have had several people show interest, but they bailed.


----------



## DDVX

I don't think people think you are lying. They are angry that you are saying that ALL amps/dacs have the same results for ALL headphones. You have not proven that at all. So more than anything, people think you are a troll for acting like you have proof that this is all a scam, when you really don't have much to go off of. You'll notice Prog Rock Man hasn't gotten near the flack that you have, because he has his own thread with many more examples. You act like you just want to piss people off.
   
  And congratulations on not selling your amp? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Glad to see you are reaping the benefits of all of your arguing.


----------



## rinthe

lol i think people just don't want to buy from you 
  
  Quote: 





crazy*carl said:


> I know my posts are working somewhat.  I have had my Sparrow posted for 2 months and still no one has bought it.  I have had several people show interest, but they bailed.


----------



## jessel

Got my Sparrow for several days. It is fantastic!
  I think it is pretty competitive even comapring to Compass.
  I tried it with my DT990/600, and it works pretty fine with sufficient power.
  Now I pairing it with my DT770/80 in my office, and it works really great.
  Love this tiny device!!


----------



## homeros8000

I got my sparrow two days ago. So far so good. I like it with my Shure SHR 840. I might replace the USB cable with a better quality one, like Kimber.


----------



## tim3320070

Quote: 





homeros8000 said:


> I got my sparrow two days ago. So far so good. I like it with my Shure SHR 840. I might replace the USB cable with a better quality one, like Kimber.


 

 Don't waste $50 on that, or any other, USB cable- buy more music!


----------



## homeros8000

Thanks Tim! But have you compared a normal USB with audio USB? I used to have the Headroom USB cable and when compared with regular USB cables I use for my hard drive the sound was better.


----------



## tim3320070

Well, if you heard it, spend away then!


----------



## movi

Quote: 





currawong said:


> My Sparrow A arrived and I've had a bit of a play.  Nice and clear-sounding out of the box. Having just compared the old and new USB inputs on the Fun, the Tenor chip seems to make a small improvement, resulting in a slightly smoother, less harsh sound.  It's not unpleasant driving my HD-800s either, though is a little fatiguing. Also too, the soundstage etc. isn't anywhere near as good as a mid-range dedicated amp and it wont do justice to say, Shpongle or anything complex.  I understand why other manufacturers use the WM8740 in low-end gear, as the slight treble roll-off masks the lack of linearity in the treble and makes listening less fatiguing.   Overall though, it's closer to what I originally intended in concept, if not entirely in spec, when I asked Audio-gd to make an entry-level piece of gear.


 

 thanks for the impressions Currawong. based on how it sounded with the HD-800s, how do you think the Sparrow would do as a DAC/amp for HD-650s? is there anything better in a similar price point (under $300)? how does it compare to offerings in a higher price category? you also mention it doesn't shine with complex music like Shpongle.. what types of music would you say it handles best? worst? (i'm not sure what constitutes "complex" music from an audio gear perspective!)
   
  sorry, lots of questions. any insight is appreciated


----------



## Murat

[size=16pt]I received my supposed to be USB-A version sparrow. But they sent me an e-mail on the same day that my unit doesn’t support more than 48Khz. They offered me to send it back to them to send me A version or refund 30% of 235$ that I paid. Since I already waited around 30 days in the process(sending money and waiting it to be in stock and shipping) I had to accept their 30% refund disappointedly. I pair it with DT990 600 ohm and I think I like it. I have no other amp to compare its sound. I asked them several times what is wrong with it but nothing is clear. Also gaining switch doesn’t work(only one out of three works). Maybe you guys can tell me what I miss?[/size]


----------



## LarsMonsen

Gaining switch? There's no such thing, no? I guess you're talking about the digital input switch in front, which for some reason is only named 1, 2 and 3.
   
  I don't quite see why you would buy the A version in the first place, this being your first amp and all...


----------



## miyinan

Quote: 





larsmonsen said:


> Gaining switch? There's no such thing, no? I guess you're talking about the digital input switch in front, which for some reason is only named 1, 2 and 3.
> 
> I don't quite see why you would buy the A version in the first place, this being your first amp and all...


 


 Exactly, the switch in front is input switch (1 usb or bnc, 2 Cox, 3, optical). It is not gain switch. And if yours is the older version which has the older usb chip, the usb chip will only support up to 16/48 input. But if you use Cox or optical, it will support up to 24/96 (or 24/192 if you replace DIR9001 with DIR8416). Regarding the A version, based on what Kingwa said, it seems that the A version is for those who use custom high end cables and high end gears, otherwise it is hard to notice any difference between A and B versions. Hope this help.


----------



## tim3320070

The refund is a good deal for you- you won't hear much or any difference having the different USB input I bet. Enjoy it.


----------



## miyinan

Same here, I think the B version (with older usb chip) is good enough for a lot people (including me


----------



## Murat

Thank you all for the clarification. So mine is B version with the old chip. I am already happy with the sound of DT990 out of the sparrow but 16/48 input is a bit confusing. Also using foobar I cannot get KS working so I choose DS. Is it related to that input limit?


----------



## miyinan

Quote: 





murat said:


> Thank you all for the clarification. So mine is B version with the old chip. I am already happy with the sound of DT990 out of the sparrow but 16/48 input is a bit confusing. Also using foobar I cannot get KS working so I choose DS. Is it related to that input limit?


 

 That I am not sure. I use WASAPI as I have Win Vista. From what I read, most people with XP use ASIO, whereas those who are with Vista use WASAPI. Not sure about KS and DS. Maybe check if you need to install any plug-in for that. With foobar, there are a lot of plug-in to play around. To me, it doesn't seem to be the problem of the device if it works with one input well but not another, and it shouldn't have anything to do with the 16/48 input neither. But take notes that I don't know much about foobar though. Use the search function here, there should be some threads for that.


----------



## anoobis

Quote: 





murat said:


> Thank you all for the clarification. So mine is B version with the old chip. I am already happy with the sound of DT990 out of the sparrow but 16/48 input is a bit confusing. Also using foobar I cannot get KS working so I choose DS. Is it related to that input limit?


 
   
  I'm not sure whether that's a statement or a question regarding the version. You may still have an A version but with a USB chip that supports 16/48. The higher sampling rate support is irrelevant unless you have audio files that are better than CD quality and even then only USB input is affected. The A version relates to the brand of components used in the build.


----------



## anoobis

Well, I was hoping to use my new CD as part of testing and reviewing the Sparrow but unfortunately I don't yet have it and I'm more than a little disappointed with the current state of play.
   
  I'll cut a long story short. I paid on 4th July and after several delays my parcel was sent around 21st July. In the meantime, I had to change the delivery address. I sent three emails to this effect before shipping and received confirmation of the correct address. I'm sure that you can guess that my parcel was sent to the wrong address. Annoying but it's one of those things. However, since I found out and informed Audio-gd, I've had no proactive response and feel as though they've made it my problem. I appreciate there's a language barrier but that only goes so far.
   
  I've laid out several options for resolving their mistake, mostly involving effort on my behalf, not theirs, and have not had a clear response, only vague suggestions that I deal with it. More annoyingly, I have not had an answer as to whether they will cover costs if I sort everything, despite asking at least three times. Finally, I have heard nothing since Thursday morning. Obviously I'm miffed partly because I don't have my shiny new toy and it will be over a month since I paid before I get it but I don't think I'm wrong to be disappointed with the customer service response I've had.


----------



## anoobis

Fingers crossed the Sparrow's back on its way 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  Still no word from Audio-gd though


----------



## Crazy*Carl

pm me for a good deal on a sparrow


----------



## Cya|\|

Your posts really make me laugh. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, no offence though.


----------



## SoupRKnowva

thinking about getting one of these to use with my jh-13s, because i have recently decided to be fiscally responsible and wait a while to get my jh-3a's, but i already sold my protector and dac19mk3. so now im looking for something to use for the 6months to a year. 
   
  I saw AVU, you said you're using your sparrow with your 13's, what do you think of it? have you compared it with any other amps?
   
  i am really excited to finally be able to try out a ACSS amp though


----------



## SoupRKnowva

Just ordered version A with the WM8741. I asked kingwa about the AD1852 since haloxt said that it was more detailed than the WM8740, and he replied that he made it that way on purpose so that users would have option for detailed or warm. But as of July 1st, you can get the WM8740/1 both in the detailed dynamic version. so i went ahead and just got the WM8741. and had him lower the gain to 3dB for the JH-13's, but i asked him if he could put a 1/8th inch jack on the front so i wouldnt need an adaptor, but he said the hole was to big.
   
  cant wait to hear my 13's on the ACSS amp.


----------



## Cya|\|

How do you set it to work in windows xp, via usb? Do i just have to plug the usb cable and headphones to the amp, and it will work?
  As a friend of mine just got it, and tried connecting his active speakers to the headphone out (with an adapter from jack to rca), and he says he hears a buzz and no sound.


----------



## Currawong

The buzz is probably ground-loop hum.  He might try plugging something into a different power point to see if the buzz goes away.  Also, what kind of input do the active speakers have?


----------



## Cya|\|

rca


----------



## miyinan

Quote: 





cya|\| said:


> How do you set it to work in windows xp, via usb? Do i just have to plug the usb cable and headphones to the amp, and it will work?
> As a friend of mine just got it, and tried connecting his active speakers to the headphone out (with an adapter from jack to rca), and he says he hears a buzz and no sound.


 

 mine works well with my active speakers and i hear no buzz. I use vista and usb. Just plug and play. As for using it to preamp to a dedicated amp, I never tried myself as I don't have a dedicate amp. But according to their website and Kingwa's email, I'd imagine it will be the same as output it to active speakers.


----------



## tim3320070

Is his volume up? Is the plug all the way in? Does it work with headphones?


----------



## anoobis

Still not in the post, however, this is nothing to do with Audio-gd. My problem seems to have been escalated to Kingwa, who has confirmed they will cover costs if I sort it out. So, a fair result (next best outcome) in the end, though it's taken some time, or at least to-ing and fro-ing to get there. It will be a relief to finally have it: fingers crossed there are no further issues.


----------



## miyinan

Quote: 





anoobis said:


> Still not in the post, however, this is nothing to do with Audio-gd. My problem seems to have been escalated to Kingwa, who has confirmed they will cover costs if I sort it out. So, a fair result (next best outcome) in the end, though it's taken some time, or at least to-ing and fro-ing to get there. It will be a relief to finally have it: fingers crossed there are no further issues.


 


 good to hear that at least they had an acceptable solution for your issue. hope you will have your new toy soon


----------



## anoobis

Quote: 





miyinan said:


> good to hear that at least they had an acceptable solution for your issue. hope you will have your new toy soon


 

 I won't deny it's been a frustrating process but I thought it only fair to redress the balance once the promise of reimbursement was made.


----------



## Cya|\|

Quote: 





miyinan said:


> mine works well with my active speakers and i hear no buzz. I use vista and usb. Just plug and play. As for using it to preamp to a dedicated amp, I never tried myself as I don't have a dedicate amp. But according to their website and Kingwa's email, I'd imagine it will be the same as output it to active speakers.


 
   
  Has anyone compared the fun dac only output to a power amp or active speakers, vs. the sparrow headphone out to a power amp or active speakers? Wich one is better?
  Maybe in the future i'll buy a valve amp, and wonder how well the sparrow can be as a dac out via the headphone connector.


----------



## miyinan

Quote: 





cya|\| said:


> Has anyone compared the fun dac only output to a power amp or active speakers, vs. the sparrow headphone out to a power amp or active speakers? Wich one is better?
> Maybe in the future i'll buy a valve amp, and wonder how well the sparrow can be as a dac out via the headphone connector.


 

 If using it with a dedicated amp, I'd say go with the Fun. I never heard the Fun, so I can't comment on the sound, but your setup will look tidier as you can use the RCA output at the back of the Fun.


----------



## muad

It's been recommended in the Fun not to use the dac output at all. The preamp output is buffered and sound perfect. The dac out sounds harsh and very digital. That being said Kingwa recently made a new dac module for the Fun, using the WM8741. It's also gonna be the stock dac module for the Fun version a from here on out. He says it's less harsh than the ad1852. So it may make the dac output usable... maybe 
   
  From the way kingwa described the sound of the new dac module it definitley sounded like the thing to fix the one complaint people had about the Fun without losing the detail or dynamics that the AD1852.


----------



## nManJofo

So would it be worth it to order WM8741 module to replace AD1852 in Sparrow? Has anyone tried both?


----------



## Currawong

Quote: 





muad said:


> It's been recommended in the Fun not to use the dac output at all. The preamp output is buffered and sound perfect. The dac out sounds harsh and very digital. That being said Kingwa recently made a new dac module for the Fun, using the WM8741. It's also gonna be the stock dac module for the Fun version a from here on out. He says it's less harsh than the ad1852. So it may make the dac output usable... maybe
> 
> From the way kingwa described the sound of the new dac module it definitley sounded like the thing to fix the one complaint people had about the Fun without losing the detail or dynamics that the AD1852.


 

 YMMV.  Kingwa suggested in cases where one was using the DAC output, that one should try the pre-amp output instead.  Sometimes you get some benefit, sometimes not.  I never found the DAC output to sound "harsh and digital" as you put it.
   
  I'd be reluctant to suggest a change in DAC module is going to make any kind of large difference. However, for me, sometimes a small, subtle change for the better has made my listening more enjoyable over time.  Just posting this to put things in perspective. It's fun to play around with these things though to see how they affect the sound though.


----------



## Cya|\|

Wich one do you prefer curran, to connect the fun to another amp? The dac out, or the headphone out?


----------



## Currawong

I've had better luck with the DAC out with the gear I've tried.  I'm using the Fun as a pre-amp for a Parasound Zamp at the moment though, so I have no choice in the matter.


----------



## mythless

Quick question, how do you select the stand alone DAC, DAC+Preamp, stand alone preamp selection on the Sparrow?  Would it be wrong of me to assume that it would depends on the input selection?


----------



## muad

you can't... the only inputs are digital. So you have to use the dac and preamp/headphone amp at all times. The Fun has the ability to separate the headphone amp/preamp/dac sections.


----------



## mythless

That's what I thought too, but the website wasn't very clear, lol.
   
  lol I think audio-gd needs a better chinese to english translator!


----------



## muad

Quote: 





> That's what I thought too, but the website wasn't very clear, lol.
> 
> lol I think audio-gd needs a better chinese to english translator!


 
   
  I agree


----------



## SoupRKnowva

i cant wait till mine gets here, it shipped out the 10th


----------



## mythless

Hrmm, I guess if it sounds fine off headphones, off another amp it shouldn't be any different, besides extra coloration (if any, lol I don't trust the website translation anymore!)


----------



## haloxt

What held me back from really fixing up audio-gd's site is that there's some technical inaccuracies that I don't have the knowledge to solve and now people don't have the grammar cues that there's technical information mistakes. If you find some technical mistakes or very poor wordings, send a revision to me or Kingwa, but if the wording is only a little misleading, don't bother. I left some weird wording "as is" so people get the hint they need to read the site with a grain of salt, but if someone with the technical expertise looks things over I'll make sure all the grammar and word choice is easy to understand.
   
  I think the sparrow description on dac and dac+preamp is a little confusing but is fine, because if I took out the part where it says the sparrow can be a dac, it may scare people away from using the sparrow headphone output into a preamplifier or another headphone amplifier which, according to Kingwa, is perfectly fine.
   
  Looking at the current page, I notice there's something new about a dac line-in on the sparrow but I don't see it in the pictures yet.


----------



## miyinan

Now, the USB chip. Is the TE7022 really better than the original USB chip(PCM2706/7 I'd assume)?Same for the DA chip, is the WM8741 really better than AD1852?  If I only have 16/44.1 files, is the extra cost of the A version really worthwhile?
   
  Thanks


----------



## Currawong

miyinan: I think you've got the wrong idea when you say you "only have 16/44.1 files".  Most gear can't get the best out of those, and the benefits of 24/96 arguably only manifest when they are the digital masters, as the only technical benefit is a lower noise floor.  I wouldn't about the DAC chip to be honest, as everything else in the Sparrow or Fun will have considerably more of an effect on the sound.  The WM8741 is the superior design which measures much better than the more common WM8740, but most people will be straining to hear a lot of difference in the Sparrow, excepting any tuning Kingwa has done to the sound. It's nice to have the better option when it's available though.


----------



## miyinan

Quote: 





currawong said:


> miyinan: I think you've got the wrong idea when you say you "only have 16/44.1 files".  Most gear can't get the best out of those, and the benefits of 24/96 arguably only manifest when they are the digital masters, as the only technical benefit is a lower noise floor.  I wouldn't about the DAC chip to be honest, as everything else in the Sparrow or Fun will have considerably more of an effect on the sound.  The WM8741 is the superior design which measures much better than the more common WM8740, but most people will be straining to hear a lot of difference in the Sparrow, excepting any tuning Kingwa has done to the sound. It's nice to have the better option when it's available though.


 

 Thanks Currawong. When I said ONLY have 16/44.1 files, I didn't mean that there were bad or not good enough for my ear or something. What I meant was that I don't have any 24/96 music files, and I was wondering if the TE7022 usb chip is better than the PCM2706/7 when only playing 16/44.1 files.


----------



## Currawong

When I tried it in the Fun, the sound was marginally less harsh with the TE7022 than with the PCM2706/7, so yes.


----------



## muad

I wonder if the Fun/sparrow does bit perfect 16bit 44k over the PCM2706/7?


----------



## anoobis

1st July or 1st August? Just don't remember seeing mention of it in July.
   
  Anyway, it's getting a little too confusing now, as it seems the same chip has been used but the sound from it has been tweaked.

  
  Quote: 





souprknowva said:


> Just ordered version A with the WM8741. I asked kingwa about the AD1852 since haloxt said that it was more detailed than the WM8740, and he replied that he made it that way on purpose so that users would have option for detailed or warm. But as of July 1st, you can get the WM8740/1 both in the detailed dynamic version. so i went ahead and just got the WM8741. and had him lower the gain to 3dB for the JH-13's, but i asked him if he could put a 1/8th inch jack on the front so i wouldnt need an adaptor, but he said the hole was to big.
> 
> cant wait to hear my 13's on the ACSS amp.


----------



## anoobis

As a follow up to my previous post (struggling with the multiquote), I think the answer from Currawong is the best we're going to get. If I've understood correctly, the DA chips themselves don't particularly influence the sound (all the options in the Sparrow are decent) but Kingwa has tweaked the sound differently using the different chips. Only the WM8740 has been tweaked in two different ways...
   

 So, the difference is in technical specs only (unlikely to have an audible difference) and other components will make a larger difference anyway. Is that a fair assessment?
   
  Quote: 





miyinan said:


> Now, the USB chip. Is the TE7022 really better than the original USB chip(PCM2706/7 I'd assume)?Same for the DA chip, is the WM8741 really better than AD1852?  If I only have 16/44.1 files, is the extra cost of the A version really worthwhile?
> 
> Thanks


 




  Quote: 





currawong said:


> miyinan: I think you've got the wrong idea when you say you "only have 16/44.1 files".  Most gear can't get the best out of those, and the benefits of 24/96 arguably only manifest when they are the digital masters, as the only technical benefit is a lower noise floor.  I wouldn't about the DAC chip to be honest, as everything else in the Sparrow or Fun will have considerably more of an effect on the sound.  The WM8741 is the superior design which measures much better than the more common WM8740, but most people will be straining to hear a lot of difference in the Sparrow, excepting any tuning Kingwa has done to the sound. It's nice to have the better option when it's available though.


----------



## miyinan

Quote: 





anoobis said:


> As a follow up to my previous post (struggling with the multiquote), I think the answer from Currawong is the best we're going to get. If I've understood correctly, the DA chips themselves don't particularly influence the sound (all the options in the Sparrow are decent) but Kingwa has tweaked the sound differently using the different chips. Only the WM8740 has been tweaked in two different ways...
> Â
> 
> So, the difference is in technical specs only (unlikely to have an audible difference) and other components will make a larger difference anyway. Is that a fair assessment?
> Â


 

 Thanks anoobis. Can I conclude that the basic version is good enough and most people can hardly here difference between basic and A versions with 16/44.1 files but it is nice to have the A version for good components and future upgrades?


----------



## haloxt

B can take all the upgrade modules that A can. B uses good quality parts, A uses certain premium parts, which have premium pricetags. Although there's no option for it written on their website, you could probably get a wm8741 installed in B when purchasing.


----------



## miyinan

Quote: 





haloxt said:


> B can take all the upgrade modules that A can. B uses good quality parts, A uses certain premium parts, which have premium pricetags. Although there's no option for it written on their website, you could probably get a wm8741 installed in B when purchasing.


 


 Thanks haloxt. Yes, I asked Kingwa about this. He said that he could install the wm8741 to B but they had to solder one more wire becasue B's power supply design was for AD1852 and wm8740. Not sure if this will affect the performance. But yes, they are extremely flexible.


----------



## SoupRKnowva

So i got my sparrow in the mail today. The box was a little beat up, but it was just fine inside with copious protection in the form of foam.
   
  So first thing i did obviously was plug it in running optical out of my Macbook Pro and start listening with my jh-13's.
   
  I got the gain lowered to 3dB, but i guess i should have done a little but more, because i dont have as much volume control with louder modern recordings as i would like. i can barely get above 9 o'clock on the dial. but with some of my needle drops ive got plenty of room up to about 10:30 or so.
   
  Now onto impressions. right off the bat the first thing i noticed was how incredibly clean it sounded. I was definitely gonna have to watch the volume with this, you can just turn it up and have no problems. the second was how black the background is, i dont get hiss till about 1:30, which would blow my ears with even the quietist of musics. Second was the dynamics! holy cow dynamics! ive seriously never heard dynamics like this out of my jh-13's, its amazing. now there were a couple things that i was a little disappointed in on the first listen, the bass didnt go as deep as i had hoped, and there was just the slightest harshness to the high end. But i left it running for the next 4 hours ish, playing Origin, which is technical death metal. Came back and the bass had improved in depth dramatically  
   
  now maybe i fell in love with the ACSS gain because i was expecting it to be awesome. But i dont think ive ever heard an amp this dynamic and fast, its a revelation is what it is. If the bass continues to get better over the next week, which i think it might, then this will hands down be the best ive heard my 13's sound. besting the protector, toucan and slim for portables, and besting the sonett at canjam.
   
  the only gripe i have still is that i wish i could use more of my volume knob, im not sure that the gain was lowered?? AVU, i know you ahd yours lowered to 3dB as well, how much play did you get with your knob with the 13's?


----------



## les_garten

Quote: 





souprknowva said:


> So i got my sparrow in the mail today. The box was a little beat up, but it was just fine inside with copious protection in the form of foam.
> 
> So first thing i did obviously was plug it in running optical out of my Macbook Pro and start listening with my jh-13's.
> 
> ...


 
  I wouldn't fret about where the POT is at.  I have some amps that are like that with Senn 650's (DV-337SE).
   
  If you lower it too much, you'll have issues if you try to upgrade and sell it later.  Like when the Sparrow 2 comes out!  J/King!
   
  Sparrow is Pound for Pound a winner for sure. I'm jealous you have the 8740 in yours!  I need to round up some Ducks and order that DAC board for my FUN and Sparrow!


----------



## SoupRKnowva

Quote: 





les_garten said:


> I wouldn't fret about where the POT is at.  I have some amps that are like that with Senn 650's (DV-337SE).
> 
> If you lower it too much, you'll have issues if you try to upgrade and sell it later.  Like when the Sparrow 2 comes out!  J/King!
> 
> Sparrow is Pound for Pound a winner for sure. I'm jealous you have the 8740 in yours!  I need to round up some Ducks and order that DAC board for my FUN and Sparrow!


 
  its just that with some of the louder modern music, i cant make it out of the inbalance region of the pot, or just barely.
   
  Oh and its the WM8741 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  i jsut wish i had a large enough allen wrench so i could open it up and see the inards, cause it didnt come with one like my dac19. But overall i think the sparrow sounds better than my dac19 feeding my protector.
   
  its just so easy to turn it up!


----------



## haloxt

I am pretty sure if you can actually use the JH13 on the sparrow, it has had its gain adjusted lol.
   
  I often turn the volume too high, I have to adjust volume according to volume peaks instead of overall volume when using gear with dynamic sound signature or headphones with reduced mids like ultrasones.


----------



## AVU

Yeah, that sounds about right.  When I ordered the Sparrow B originally, I discussed this with Kingwa and he said that first, the gain should be lowered to +3 (what is it ordinarily, +6?  I don't know) and that the Pot should be upgraded to the A version since it had less channel imbalance at the bottom and he implied I'd be using the bottom a good bit   I asked him whether the gain should be even lower, and first he replied that +3 was best and when I pressed him with the technical specs of the JH13s, he replied that +3 was the lowest he could make without compromising the audio quality.  Apparently he didn't have access to whatever was needed to get the gain lower without relying on (his words) "cheap chinese parts" that weren't of the same quality he was using in the B model (let alone the A model).  So, yeah, I got the +3, and when I ran it out of the powerbook pro, I experimented with turning down the master volume in Pure Music, since I had had to do with when I had an ibasso D4 b/c of the clipping that amp has.  But, whether or not it was my imagination, I could swear that I always liked the sound better when it was set to 100% rather than anything else coming out of the computer, so I just learned to deal with minute changes in volume - basically 7:30 to 9:30, sometimes to 10 or 11 on softer pieces.  But I felt like after the very first touch, when the channels came into alignment, it was gorgeous, and as long as you were delicate, you could get a good range.  But not ideal, I agree.   
   
  The amp improved with burn in.  I burned mine in for like 2 weeks straight, and really noticed it opening up in the low end.  
   
  But when I broke down and ordered the new Sparrow A, I asked Kingwa again what we could do and he said that he could modify the ACSS to produce a unity gain.  Yes, resale value goes down, and who knows what it will sound like, but I trust Kingwa to tell me the truth, and if he think's it's a good solution, I'm willing to take the chance.  Will post impressions when it arrives! 
   
  Quote: 





souprknowva said:


> So first thing i did obviously was plug it in running optical out of my Macbook Pro and start listening with my jh-13's.
> 
> I got the gain lowered to 3dB, but i guess i should have done a little but more, because i dont have as much volume control with louder modern recordings as i would like. i can barely get above 9 o'clock on the dial. but with some of my needle drops ive got plenty of room up to about 10:30 or so.
> ...
> ...


----------



## SoupRKnowva

Quote: 





avu said:


> Yeah, that sounds about right.  When I ordered the Sparrow B originally, I discussed this with Kingwa and he said that first, the gain should be lowered to +3 (what is it ordinarily, +6?  I don't know) and that the Pot should be upgraded to the A version since it had less channel imbalance at the bottom and he implied I'd be using the bottom a good bit   I asked him whether the gain should be even lower, and first he replied that +3 was best and when I pressed him with the technical specs of the JH13s, he replied that +3 was the lowest he could make without compromising the audio quality.  Apparently he didn't have access to whatever was needed to get the gain lower without relying on (his words) "cheap chinese parts" that weren't of the same quality he was using in the B model (let alone the A model).  So, yeah, I got the +3, and when I ran it out of the powerbook pro, I experimented with turning down the master volume in Pure Music, since I had had to do with when I had an ibasso D4 b/c of the clipping that amp has.  But, whether or not it was my imagination, I could swear that I always liked the sound better when it was set to 100% rather than anything else coming out of the computer, so I just learned to deal with minute changes in volume - basically 7:30 to 9:30, sometimes to 10 or 11 on softer pieces.  But I felt like after the very first touch, when the channels came into alignment, it was gorgeous, and as long as you were delicate, you could get a good range.  But not ideal, I agree.
> 
> The amp improved with burn in.  I burned mine in for like 2 weeks straight, and really noticed it opening up in the low end.
> 
> But when I broke down and ordered the new Sparrow A, I asked Kingwa again what we could do and he said that he could modify the ACSS to produce a unity gain.  Yes, resale value goes down, and who knows what it will sound like, but I trust Kingwa to tell me the truth, and if he think's it's a good solution, I'm willing to take the chance.  Will post impressions when it arrives!


 
  Grr, i wish that hed mentioned that i could have gotten the gain even lower...cause on some of the loudest recordings i have it have to turn it up just a smidgen further than i would like too in order to get passed the inbalance zone....
   
  mines been burning in since i got it, and i have heard improvements as i listen as well. Though i turn it off while im sleeping, itd keep me up, but all day while im at work its running, and im listening while im at home. Its so dynamic! i dont know if its the amp or the DAC but its awesome. the dac19 through the protector wasnt this dynamic. and its still blowing me away at how fast it is


----------



## haloxt

The software player cplay (and cmp) is supposed to have a very good digital volume control. I couldn't level match test digital volume control vs normal volume control, so I never seriously tried to hear the difference, so no comment on whether or not it will improve your sound quality.
   
  notes about the player: you can only use flac and wav files, and you have to use the cuecreator program on its site to create cue sheets to play whole cd's or playlists instead of single tracks.


----------



## mythless

Anyone install the new WM8741 on their older Version A or B yet?


----------



## muad

Some of the guys in the Fun forum have. So far some pretty positive results... I personally think the wm8741 module sounds the best so far. But it may change with burn in... for the worse. Im keeping my fingers crossed. As it stands, Im very impressed with it. Burn in aside, it's definitely more neutral than the ad1852. So far it's slightly more dynamic also. The ad1852's harshness came from a upper mid emphasis to my ears. Well thats gone with the new dac... I can definitely see why kingwa stated that the wm8741 is the last dac upgrade he plans on making for the fun. I can't see the Fun getting much better than this.


----------



## Elanzer

I was thinking of upgrading my Sparrow ver B to WM8741, but I'm not too sure on how module installation goes.
   
  From the pictures on the Audio-gd site, it does not look like there are any wires connecting the module to the board, is it a matter of simply unplugging the old one and dropping the new one in? Haven't cracked mine open yet as I don't have the proper size allen key.
   
  Not too confident on my soldering skills and equipment, I only have a crappy 10w soldering iron for wire repairs so nothing suitable for precision.


----------



## anoobis

I'm not sure whether the WM8741 module can be bought for the Sparrow, at least I couldn't find a price. Does anyone have a price?
   
  As for neutrality, I understood that the AD1852 *module* had been designed to be neutral, therefore if the highs are reduced, does this not make the WM8741 less neutral? I'm not saying that's correct or that the former is better, just trying to understand.
   
  Related to that is Currawong's comment that the tuning of the module will make a far bigger difference than these chips. So, is there not much difference or has the tuning been changed (why wasn't that tuning just used in the first place?) or have I misunderstood Currawong and his comment doesn't apply to the AD1852?
   
  There are always so many questions aren't there? And, oh dear, it looks as though I may have upgraditits before I've even got going!


----------



## muad

It's $30, the wm8741 can be installed on the version B, but it does require some modification, whereas version A has had the power sectioned modified to allow for the extra power the wm8471 requires. Ask kingwa what is required for the B version to accept the wm8741 module.
   
  Well the ad1852 module wasn't voiced neutral (they tried to), and the problem wasn't only in the highs but the upper mids also. Female vocals would get shrill etc. I think it actually had a slight emphasis in the highs and upper mids. It gave the leading edge of notes a really nice attack. It's still sounded really nice but was colored and had the tendency to sound harsh sometimes. Also due to the emphasis some instruments didn't sound real/right. I think this new module is voiced neutral, at least through my k701's. The definition makes up for the lack of leading note emphasis. Nothing sounds recessed or lacking or emphasized. It still maintains a nice soundstage stage and imaging. This is all IMHO....


----------



## mythless

I got a quote from Kingwa for the WM8741 for the sparrow if you have the older WM8740 $25USD, and you have to remove the old module and install the new one and solder it to the DIR, I will assume you have to de-solder the old one first before installing the new one, anyone got a picture guide on how to do it?  I'm contemplating to buy the older WM8740 A version and install the new module myself.


----------



## muad

If it's anything like the way it is with the fun it's very easy. And I don't think you need the wm8740 version for it to work. The modules are the same for the fun.
   
  Remove the screw for the wm8740 or ad1852 module. Unplug the old module (it's socketed). Plug in the new module and replace the screw from before. The wm8741 module has a wire pre-soldered to it. The other end of that wire must be soldered to the 3.3v supply on the dir9001 module. This is how it is on the Fun. If it's the same on the sparrow then both the old a and b versions won't have the correct supply for the new dac. Only the newest (made in the last week or so) version A Fun and sparrow don't require the soldering. You might wanna recheck with kingwa if the new dac will work with both a and b versions with this method. Both ad1852 and wm8740 are completely interchangeable. So it shouldn't matter which dac is in there now...
   
  Below is a pic of my install of the new dac module in my Fun... the bottom wire on the left side was the side I had to solder...


----------



## mythless

Hrmm so the old WM8740 doesn't have a wire soldered to the DIR power supply?  If not that would make it quite easy to do, lol just need to get some electrical solder and soldering tool.  But, to make sure I'll send Kingwa an email with your description.


----------



## haloxt

Ask Kingwa for some internal wiring and solder wire, would be cheaper than buying it yourself if you don't need much.
   
  I got a soldering iron from dealextreme.com , free shipping and good quality for the price.


----------



## muad

No the wm8740 module doesn't need alternate power from the DIR9001. It's a straight swap with the ad1852 module. Only the wm8741 requires this.
   
  The new module comes with the wire already attached to the wm8741. I didn't need to buy any wire or anything. So you just need some solder and an iron. TBH there's enough solder on the DIR9001 pin to begin with and the wire end comes tinned. I just added an extra blob of solder for piece of mind.


----------



## mythless

Cool! I should take Fulcrum's offer for an older A version Sparrow with WM8740 and do the upgrade myself!


----------



## muad

Yeah I don't think you will regret it. I love audio-gd so far! Amazing sounding stuff and the amp in my fun does wonders with the k701. For the price, I wouldn't bother with anything else.
   
  BTW mythless, let us know kingwas response to installing the dac module. If it is different I'll take the picture and that post down. I don't want anyone getting the wrong idea


----------



## mythless

Haha, I'll wait for Kingwa's response.  I thought about the Fun for a long time, but the size!  And, I doubt I will use the other functions.  At most I'll buy and adapter if I want to hook up another amp.  But, main file source will be my comp, and the sparrow fits my needs.


----------



## Currawong

Since the Compass, some people felt the sound was a bit harsh, which is an issue with low-end gear.  I'm thinking I might have to spring for the module to see how far I can take the Sparrow, as I will probably use it in a transportable rig during long-distance travel.


----------



## les_garten

Quote: 





currawong said:


> Since the Compass, some people felt the sound was a bit harsh, which is an issue with low-end gear.  I'm thinking I might have to spring for the module to see how far I can take the Sparrow, as I will probably use it in a transportable rig during long-distance travel.


 


 Yeah, there's no way I'll be able to resist this either...


----------



## SoupRKnowva

Kingwa told me when i tried to order mine, that you could either get the WM8740 and the AD1852 how they were originally voiced, which was with the ad1852 neutral and the 8740 being more softish. Or i could get the New voicings, with the 8740 or the 8741, which he tuned them both neutral. but when i asked if i could get the 8741 and the 1852 he said that wouldnt work, which makes me think that theres something else that got changed in the circuit??
   
  Im still loving my sparrow though, it continues to improve with burn in


----------



## mythless

Kingwa says (lol should reminded him to type in chinese) "Yes. Only solder a point. The wire is come with the WM8741 module."  Guess it's a done deal for me to get the old sparrow and upgrade myself!  It'll be cheaper and faster haha.


----------



## AVU

ha!  if I had known it was this easy, I wouldn't have sold the sparrow B!  (is it $30 with shipping?  wow, shipping alone is usually $30+)  At least now I'll get to see what the unity gain and A-level components do.  (hopefully something)


----------



## mythless

I got $44USD shipped to Canada, so might be cheaper for you guys down south.  Btw, what is this "unity gain"?


----------



## AVU

Quote: 





mythless said:


> I got $44USD shipped to Canada, so might be cheaper for you guys down south.  Btw, what is this "unity gain"?


 

 Just a fancy term for +0.


----------



## tim3320070

The 8741 needs more power than the 8740 (according to Kingwa) and must not work with the 1852 because of it?


----------



## les_garten

Quote: 





tim3320070 said:


> The 8741 needs more power than the 8740 (according to Kingwa) and must not work with the 1852 because of it?


 


 Does it need more or "different " voltage.
   
  If you look at the PIC in this post of the DAC module, it shows there are no 5 v pins on the module like there is on the 8740.  It picks up 3.3v rather than 5 v.
   
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/483188/official-audio-gd-sparrow-thread/480#post_6864314
   
  See what I'm talking about here?
   
  On the 1852 and 8740,that I have, there are pins down to pick up the 5v off the "Motherboard".  On the 8741, there are no 5v pins, and it picks up 3.3v off the DIR board.


----------



## muad

Out of pure laziness I just stated that it needs more power. But the above is correct 
   
  Now that I think about it... that would make the new version A's that come with the wm8741 not backwards compatible?


----------



## mythless

Only if Kingwa changed the power plan for the WM8741.  I would guess as long as the new A version doesn't have that extra wire it wouldn't be backwards compatible to the WM8740.  But if it does, it should be.   Unless you're refering to the other DAC module.


----------



## muad

I think I read that the new version A won't have the wire... don't quote me on it though 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  but really there shouldn't be a reason why someone would want to move from the 8741 to the 8740 or 1852 modules. Unless they need the latter for a deliberate emphasis to the upper mids...


----------



## tim3320070

Quote from Kingwa on the two chips: "WM8741, but its power spend is 3X than WM8740"


----------



## mythless

lol requires 3 times more voltage?
   
  lol anyways as long as I can do the upgrade im perfectly content.


----------



## les_garten

Quote: 





mythless said:


> lol requires 3 times more voltage?
> 
> lol anyways as long as I can do the upgrade im perfectly content.


 


 I imagine it's more current and not more Voltage.


----------



## muad

Kinda weird tho... the wm8470 has 2 pins that take 5v each from separate supplies.  The new wm8741 is missing those 2 pins. Instead those two connections are bridged together and take 3.3v together from the dir9001 module. This is considering the labels on the motherboard are correct. Im thoroughly confused.. but I guess it doesn't really matter.
   
  EDIT: IC, what les Garten says makes more sense


----------



## mythless

Yeah definitely, lol i was thinking "wow I didn't know that module was so power hungry!" but current makes way more sense.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Les is correct...the wm 8740 requires 19mA (typical at 3.3V) vs 40mA (typical at 3.3V) for the wm 8741 according to their respective data sheets. Max V for the 8741 (digital PSU connections) is 4.5V but optimum V is 3.3.
   
  Peete.


----------



## les_garten

A mystery wrapped in an enigma, encased in a Fortune Cookie...


----------



## tim3320070

...and the inside the cookie it reads " Kingwa knows what the hell he's talking about".....apparently.


----------



## mythless

lol well, if you want to be more historically and culturally accurate, in China they don't eat fortune cookies, so it would be more of "A mystery wrapped in an enigma, encased in a moon cake"


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Just out of curiosity is there also an Earth and SUN cake ? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Peete.


----------



## mythless

Rofl, nice one!  Well, let's just say it's an all in one package!  Moon cake exterior, a nice earthy brown interior and if you're lucky there maybe a golden sun at the core!


----------



## mythless

Just received my Sparrow A (older) it sounds pretty good, very neutral.  One thing I noticed is the increase airiness in the sound stage.


----------



## Philimon

I purchased AVU's old Sparrow, and it sounds excellent. I haven't done any comparisons, but I am really enjoying its sound and functionality as a line-in optical dac for use with Mac (airport express soon too) and XBOX360. I am also having the most success with the volume pot than with any other amp I have owned for trying to listen at preferred low volumes without channel imbalance, though I still can't go as low as I 'd like with some albums (using PK1, and would also like to make note that this amp was adjusted to a lower gain than standard).


----------



## mythless

Btw, what size of allen key is needed to open the sparrow?  I've tried all my allen keys and none fit the holes properly.


----------



## RockinCannoisseur

anyone compared this bird to the matrix?


----------



## les_garten

Quote: 





> Btw, what size of allen key is needed to open the sparrow?  I've tried all my allen keys and none fit the holes properly.


 
   
   
  I believe it is 3mm


----------



## mythless

Actually, it's 2.5mm if anyone needs to know the correct size, and make sure the keys are in metric.


----------



## Elanzer

Make sure you report back after you put the WM8741 in. It'd be nice to reduce the harshness and smooth it out a bit as some people on here have reported with the FUN. It's hard to justify spending 30% the cost of my sparrow for it, I don't think it should cost $17.50 for shipping what looks like a 3x5cm module.


----------



## haloxt

It's not audio-gd's fault shipping is so expensive , and audio-gd gives you the same exact discounted price they get from EMS/DHL. When I think about how much priority mail costs in the USA, I think the international shipping rates from China are very fair. Still, I try to hold off purchasing any modules until I am buying additional things to save on shipping.


----------



## Philimon

I would like to try the new WM8741 or WM870, because I am finding the Sparrow to be a little "harsh" sounding with my Stax. 
   
  I am going to try buying something that will have good synergy with my Sparrow, perhaps the HD600/HD650. From what I can remember and have read is slightly mellow sounding with a little rolled off lower and upper frequency. If I cannot find a good phone with good synergy, then I will attempt modding my Sparrow. By the way, the Sparrow sounds great with my PK1, and PX100.


----------



## AVU

Funny, I'm finding the 8741 a little too "smooth" sounding with my JH-13s.  I think I liked the 1852 more.  But will see after burn-in.
    
  Quote:


philimon said:


> I would like to try the new WM8741 or WM870, because I am finding the Sparrow to be a little "harsh" sounding with my Stax.


----------



## Philimon

I would definitely trade you back your old Sparrow AVU plus cash on my end of course. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			







   
  What would probably be best though is for both of us to get soldering irons and try installing the other modules, though I am sure with enough time you will start to appreciate the WM8741.


----------



## numbskull

I've ordered the B version with WM8741. It cost me $15 to upgrade. It's my introduction to dedicated amp/dac department. Let's see what's coming for me.


----------



## AVU

This darn forum! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  You've got something that's perfectly great, and then you hear about something else - the 8741, or the possibility of a unity gain, or even the ibasso toucan/boomslang combo - and immediately you need to try it out, just to see, which means selling the old gear at substantial loss, etc. 
   
  Oh well.  I can say that for certain, the amp I sold you sounded better than the new class A 8741 when I got it last week.  I was a bit peeved and wrote to Kingwa.  But after a week of burn-in, it's starting to open up.  Without the old unit, I can't A/B them, so I'll probably never know for sure.  
   
  At least I'm supporting the audio industry (in China).
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  Quote: 





philimon said:


> I would definitely trade you back your old Sparrow AVU plus cash on my end of course.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## haloxt

I think the ad1852 sparrow is a very good dac/amp, if I wasn't upgrading out of curiosity I would be satisfied with the sparrow. And the sparrow/fun absolutely require burn-in to sound right, moreso than the older audio-gd compass. I think it's because they have surprisingly fast speed and detail, and it sounds all jittery and scattered without burn-in.
   
  Btw it might be easier to mod the wm8740 to sound neutral by connecting pins 26+27 to the GND solder points instead of scratching away at the green thing to get to the ground. I am bad at soldering and tried using some bleh home depot solder and made a mess of my wm8740 module . I will eventually buy the wm8741 module and also ask audio-gd to give me some of their nice wbt tin solder which is easy to work with.


----------



## olor1n

I'm sorry if this is a stupid question but Audio-gd describe the Sparrow as having a _"built-in headphone amp and pre amp, and *also has a line in allowing it to be used as just a headphone amp or preamp, bypassing the DAC*. The Headphone amp/preamp can also use ACSS technology"_. I'd like the option of connecting my ipod via lod cable. How is this achieved?
   
  And another question I've asked elsewhere, but wouldn't using optical out of a macbook into the Sparrow instead of usb employ the macbook's soundcard and therefore color the output?


----------



## les_garten

Quote: 





olor1n said:


> I'm sorry if this is a stupid question but Audio-gd describe the Sparrow as having a _"built-in headphone amp and pre amp, and *also has a line in allowing it to be used as just a headphone amp or preamp, bypassing the DAC*. The Headphone amp/preamp can also use ACSS technology"_. I'd like the option of connecting my ipod via lod cable. How is this achieved?
> 
> And another question I've asked elsewhere, but wouldn't using optical out of a macbook into the Sparrow instead of usb employ the macbook's soundcard and therefore color the output?


 


 It does not have a "Line IN".  So not sure where you are seeing some of that.
   
  It does preamp functions if you get a 1/8" to RCA Stereo adapter as shown on A-GD's website.
   
  If used with Optical off your MAC, you don't use the sound card, it is bypassed.  NO COLORATION.  It sounds very nice that way.


----------



## haloxt

The current sparrow product description says there is now a line-in on the sparrow. I don't know if it is true, anyone with a more recent sparrow can confirm?


----------



## Cya|\|

Quote: 





haloxt said:


> The current sparrow product description says there is now a line-in on the sparrow. I don't know if it is true, anyone with a more recent sparrow can confirm?


 

 If that is true, i'll change idea again and will buy the sparrow. Originally planned to buy the sparrow, then the fun to make upgrades in future (starting from the dac), and if that's so, back to the sparrow ^^. I'm glad i'll make the purchase in 1 month.


----------



## les_garten

Quote: 





haloxt said:


> The current sparrow product description says there is now a line-in on the sparrow. I don't know if it is true, anyone with a more recent sparrow can confirm?


 


 Got any idea where you would plug in an iPod?


----------



## haloxt

Audio-gd did not put up any pictures showing a line-in, which makes me a little curious if they accidentally lifted it off their FUN product page. But they did indeed say the sparrow has line-in.
   
  [size=x-small]*



*[/size][size=x-small]  [/size] [size=x-small]     The [/size][size=x-small]Sparrow [/size][size=x-small]  has a built-in headphone amp and pre amp, and also has a line in allowing it to be used as just a headphone amp or preamp, bypassing the DAC. The Headphone amp/preamp can also use ACSS technology. [/size]
 [size=x-small] [/size]


----------



## les_garten

Quote: 





haloxt said:


> Audio-gd did not put up any pictures showing a line-in, which makes me a little curious if they accidentally lifted it off their FUN product page. But they did indeed say the sparrow has line-in.
> 
> [size=x-small]*
> 
> ...


 


 I think that has to be a Typo...


----------



## AVU

Never had a line in - that was probably messed up with they reformatted the website.
   
  A line in wouldn't have much point - the dac is better than the amp on the sparrow, so there'd not be much point in having a line in (unless to mate with an ipod, of course)
   
  BTW - after 250hrs burn-in, unit is sounding much better.


----------



## mythless

You have to realize their English isn't very good.


----------



## haloxt

I'll send audio-gd an email to fix it if it's a mistake. Lol wow what a mistake to make .


----------



## mythless

Unless you plan on correcting the webpage yourself and send Kingwa the corrections I doubt they'll fix the mistakes.  TBH, asking someone to grammatically fix a language they're not completely fluently in is a bit much.


----------



## haloxt

The line-in isn't a matter of grammar, but of whether or not the current version of the sparrow actually has it. Don't worry about it though, I will help them figure it out.


----------



## Cya|\|

Yeah pls, contact him, and let us know. If it really will have line in, i'll be able to spare 100-150 euros. Line in is actually the only real reason i'm going to get the fun.


----------



## Currawong

I think he copied the Fun web page for the Sparrow and adjusted it (as I've seen him do that in the past with other things) but forgot to remove that bit.


----------



## olor1n

Yeah, I suspected that may have been the case Currawong 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.
   
  I've now read every page of this thread (thanks for the lols Crazy*Carl... your crusade is fanatical but it did heighten some doubts I already had). The discussion throughout seems to have centred on the impact of the DA chip to the sq and considering I already have a Fiio E7 which also uses the WM8740, I wondered if the Sparrow would be much of an upgrade. Granted the amp section of the Fiio is different (and it is a much cheaper unit), I suspect it may still have similarities with the Sparrow sound signature as you guys seem to overlook discussion of the Sparrow's amp section and it's affect on the sound. In the early pages haloxt also outlined his findings of the Sparrow coupled with the WM8740 module which accurately described the sound I get from the Fiio E7 using usb from my macbook and Alessandro MS-1i headphones. To my disappointment, and I hope someone else can provide another insight, another user also pointed out there wasn't a significant gain in sq when pairing the MS-1i with the Sparrow.
   
  I had considered ordering the B version upgraded to WM8741 but am now unsure if it'd be worthwhile. Others have also commented that the Sparrow shares many qualities with the FUN. If I go the Audio-gd FUN (version B with WM8741) instead, would I only be paying extra for it's versatility?


----------



## Currawong

Yes, that's right, you'd only be paying for the versatility.  I did try my old MB Quart QP55s (equivalent to low-end Grados) with my MacBook Pro (which has a quite decent line out) and the Sparrow A and there wasn't much more than an increase in available volume. Compared to onboard PC sound cards it's a lot better, however (I have two PCs here and their onboard sound is nasty, much worse than my iPods, for example).  With my high-end cans the differences are noticeable, however.  Though I wouldn't recommend it as a pairing due to the disparity in SQ capability (the headphones deserve much better), the Sparrow will drive the Audeze LCD-2s well, where the MacBook Pro wont.
   
  So, where we usually talk about headphones scaling with better amps and sources, it's rather the inverse here, with the Sparrow scaling reasonably considering.  It's better, IMO, than one of those OPA2134-based eBay whatevers (too many to remember), but no $200 DAC/amp is going to be a revelation unless you've been using a crappy soundcard to begin with.  To its credit though, it's the cheapest amp you can get with a current gain stage (think Krell-style) and discreet output stage instead of OPAMPs*.  That's quite classy, despite the above.
   
  In the end, if I'd bought one of these when I started (it didn't exist, but hypothetically) I wouldn't have been unhappy I think.  I was always hitting max volume on my MacBook Pro with the MB Quarts, so at the very least I would have had better volume control.  I do understand where CrazyCarl was coming from though.  It's easy to end up expecting too much from gear and regularly people get excited with their first purchase, making it hard to get a more realistic idea what to expect.


----------



## olor1n

Quote: 





currawong said:


> Yes, that's right, you'd only be paying for the versatility.


 

 Not what I wanted to hear, as I'm trying to justify purchasing the FUN over the Sparrow, but thanks for your frank response. There is a discernable difference in clarity on top of the volume increase when employing the Fiio E7 instead of the macbook line out. My frustration is that, while vocals and mainly guitar tracks have a grungy and emotive quality that's great for certain genre's, there is a universal lack of separation and clarity in background details. That gritty signature is also detrimental in acoustic vocal tracks and I think the WM8740's tonal limitations are exposed in dense passages (no matter the genre) when definition is lost and the result is a fatiguing mess.
   
  I may be over critical of these entry level components but my initial experience with the MS-1i and another RA-1 clone was an eye opener. Even just going line out of the macbook into this amp provided very good sound stage, with shimmering clarity and precision. There was no harshness in the upper frequencies and muddiness in the mids or bass. Although a clone, the seller apparently used quality components in addition to the stock JRC4556 dual opamp. Unfortunately that amp developed a fault and the replacement I've received has not matched the original.
   
  I'm not sure if what I encountered is what you guys would describe as a neutral amp but I suspect it was. Everything I threw at it was pleasing and I enjoyed the music rather than criticising the way it was colouring the sound as I now do with the replacement clone as well as the Fiio E7. I may be greatly mistaken but everything I've read about the amp sections of the Sparrow/FUN matches what I may looking for.


----------



## AVU

The possessive of it is its. It's a real problem online. 
   
  In any case, going from a series of more expensive portable amps to the less expensive sparrow was definitely an increase in SQ for me - mainly in the bass thickness, but also in overall smoothness of timbre.


----------



## olor1n

I'm going to pull the trigger and find out for myself. One question that hasn't been answered in my emails to Audio-gd is whether the ACSS module and diamond output stage is the default configuration for both B versions of FUN and Sparrow. The first few pages of the FUN thread suggests ACSS is only default on the A version. The Audio-gd website isn't entirely clear either. Can someone clarify this before I take the plunge?


----------



## les_garten

Quote: 





olor1n said:


> I'm going to pull the trigger and find out for myself. One question that hasn't been answered in my emails to Audio-gd is whether the ACSS module and diamond output stage is the default configuration for both B versions of FUN and Sparrow. The first few pages of the FUN thread suggests ACSS is only default on the A version. The Audio-gd website isn't entirely clear either. Can someone clarify this before I take the plunge?


 


 Yes, I'm sure it is the same.
   
  The main differences in A or B are the default DAC and the specifications of the Caps and resistors.  The underlying circuit is the same.


----------



## Currawong

The original Fun A and B were different in that the latter didn't use ACSS.  That changed to the differences being in the quality of the capacitors and resistors used in construction instead.


----------



## olor1n

SOLD! Thanks guys. This is the wrong thread but I got the most help here. Ordering the FUN now.


----------



## haloxt

Quote: 





currawong said:


> I think he copied the Fun web page for the Sparrow and adjusted it (as I've seen him do that in the past with other things) but forgot to remove that bit.


 

 Yeah that's correct, he just removed the part about sparrow having line-in.


----------



## KneelJung

I'm trying to decide which version of the Sparrow to get. I'm using a uDAC now and contrary to what Crazy Carl was ranting about it made a significant difference. The headphone out on my PC iswas just not very good and the uDAC solved my problem. I just got some MS2's though that I prefer the sound of using my Clip as the source versus the uDAC. Which even further contradicts Carls contention at least AFAIC. So I'm trying to figure out which version of the Sparrow I would like better. I dont plan on adding a dedicated amp because it seems the Sparrow's headphone out has a much better amp than the uDAC.
   
  I'm primarily concerned with which DAC chip will synergize better with MS2's. I'm leaning toward version A.


----------



## les_garten

Quote: 





kneeljung said:


> I'm trying to decide which version of the Sparrow to get. I'm using a uDAC now and contrary to what Crazy Carl was ranting about it made a significant difference. The headphone out on my PC iswas just not very good and the uDAC solved my problem. I just got some MS2's though that I prefer the sound of using my Clip as the source versus the uDAC. Which even further contradicts Carls contention at least AFAIC. So I'm trying to figure out which version of the Sparrow I would like better. I dont plan on adding a dedicated amp because it seems the Sparrow's headphone out has a much better amp than the uDAC.
> 
> I'm primarily concerned with which DAC chip will synergize better with MS2's. I'm leaning toward version A.


 

 I'm sure you would Love either version with the 8741 installed in it.
   
  For most folks, that's all the Headphone amp they'll ever need.
   
  Of course the inhabitants of this forum aren't most folks...


----------



## KneelJung

Audio gd's site says two different Woolfson chips are available, the 8740 and the 8741. The difference in the descriptions appear to be identical except for the use of  "quite neutral," versus "much neutral."
   
  What's the difference?
   
  The other contender in my search for a new DAC / amp combo is the Audinst which uses the 8740 chip too.
   
  So is the 8741 the one that sounds sort of "tubey?"


----------



## Currawong

The 8740 is the cheap chip used commonly in inexpensive gear.  The 8741 is their high-end chip used in, say, the $3000 PS Audio Perfectwave DAC.  The important thing to know is that the latter has considerably less distortion than the former, though in the Sparrow this wouldn't amount to as much as it would in mid or high-end gear.  How this kind of gear sounds really depends on the analog output and headphone amp more than anything, as well as the quality of the power supply.


----------



## KneelJung

Quote: 





currawong said:


> The 8740 is the cheap chip used commonly in inexpensive gear.  The 8741 is their high-end chip used in, say, the $3000 PS Audio Perfectwave DAC.  The important thing to know is that the latter has considerably less distortion than the former, though in the Sparrow this wouldn't amount to as much as it would in mid or high-end gear.  How this kind of gear sounds really depends on the analog output and headphone amp more than anything, as well as the quality of the power supply.


 

 I would be using the Sparrow as an amp too, so what is your impression of the sound with the 8741 chip. I'm probably just going to get the basic with the upgraded chip. Unless version A has some modifcations other than the upgraded components to get that version to synergize better with the 8741. I like the idea of the better USB although I primarily just rip from CD to Media Monkey, so the 24 bit rate thing is no real big deal to me.
   
  Primarily I'm just looking for a plug and play solution that offers an upgrade over my uDAC, I wouldnt even really be looking but my MS2's seem to synergize better with my Clip than they do with the uDAC. So I am searching for a better source for my computer listening.


----------



## n-a

Hello to all.
   
  I am Niko from Finland. My english is not 100% so there will be some weird words..dont mind it.
  I have the Sparrow A version with WM8741 and it is now burned about 300 hours.
  Have to say it really sounds great.
  My system is next:
  Macbook(2010) optical out - Mitsubishi eska optical cable - Sparrow - ATH-M50
  All music files are FLAC.
  I really am enjoying the sound of this combination! No need for anything better.
  My hobby has been home audio about a decade now. Many different mid-budget systems but now DIY audio is THE thing for me, speaker and amp building.
   
  About the Sparrow WM8741.
  I first thought it was as good as straight out from Macbook to ATH-M50, but after hearing it sometime and comparing it i noticed it has greater separation of instruments, you can hear more from recordings, lower bass and more natural sound.
   
  Try it with FLAC / good accurate files and without too much jitter and it is truly worth its price.
  I also like the size of it, fits nicely to the desk without taking too much space.
  Next thing is trying it as a preamp to T-amp.
   
  Regards,
   
  n-a


----------



## Currawong

Quote: 





kneeljung said:


> I would be using the Sparrow as an amp too, so what is your impression of the sound with the 8741 chip. I'm probably just going to get the basic with the upgraded chip. Unless version A has some modifcations other than the upgraded components to get that version to synergize better with the 8741. I like the idea of the better USB although I primarily just rip from CD to Media Monkey, so the 24 bit rate thing is no real big deal to me.
> 
> Primarily I'm just looking for a plug and play solution that offers an upgrade over my uDAC, I wouldnt even really be looking but my MS2's seem to synergize better with my Clip than they do with the uDAC. So I am searching for a better source for my computer listening.


 

 If you're going to get the 8741 (I don't have one yet) then you should get the better components in my opinion.  Unfortunately I've never owned nor tried a uDAC so I don't know how much difference there will be, if any.  I think a worthy difference will be had when one gets a $1000 rig more than anything.  Given that the sparrow has a proper transformer and power supply, I would think it would drive headphones better. It also doesn't have any treble roll-off, such as I gather the uDAC does.


----------



## ford2

Do not forget the 8742    http://www.lampizator.eu/LAMPIZATOR/REFERENCES/wolfsondac/WolfsonWM8742DAC.html


----------



## Currawong

Forget?!? I didn't know it existed!


----------



## haloxt

The wm8741 is higher spec and more expensive.
   
  Still, maybe it sounds better. Someone go ask Kingwa if he has tried it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## AVU

Given the endless discussions of Op Amp rolling around here, I thought it was interesting that the Sparrow doesn't even HAVE an op amp in the signal path - the ACSS modules are fed directly fromthe 8741 da chip.


----------



## bidermaier

I am considering to get the sparrow as my very first amp.
   
  Atm I am using a Sennheiser HD555 connected to my Dell laptop (studio 1555).
  I am planning to sell the 555 and  get a HD598 soon
  and the next year I might well get either a HD650 or a grado, depending on how my taste develops
   
  Will the sparrow suit my needs?
  Thanks  ^_^


----------



## KneelJung

I am seriously considering purchasing one of these. Which one is the question though. Does anyone have the basic paired with some Grado's that can give me their impressions. I get that the 8742 chip in the A version is supposed to be better. That it's in a lot of higher end DACS. Getting the 24/96 USB in the A version has some merit too but all the music I listen to is pretty much ripped from CD so the 24/96 thing is not that big of a deal. My mindset is more mid fi than hi fi. Dont need to hear something dancing on the head of a pin, not my thing. But I do want something that synergizes well with MS2's
   
  That may be the chip that's in the basic version as opposed to the 8742 in the A version.
   
  Also that thread that wonders are Audio gd DAC's all that asks a legitimate question. Other than the love Audio gd products get here on head fi, there doesn't seem to be anything that corroborates that anywhere else. Google searches yield nothing


----------



## AVU

Quote: 





kneeljung said:


> I am seriously considering purchasing one of these. Which one is the question though. Does anyone have the basic paired with some Grado's that can give me their impressions. I get that the 8742 chip in the A version is supposed to be better. That it's in a lot of higher end DACS. Getting the 24/96 USB in the A version has some merit too but all the music I listen to is pretty much ripped from CD so the 24/96 thing is not that big of a deal. My mindset is more mid fi than hi fi. Dont need to hear something dancing on the head of a pin, not my thing. But I do want something that synergizes well with MS2's
> 
> That may be the chip that's in the basic version as opposed to the 8742 in the A version.
> 
> Also that thread that wonders are Audio gd DAC's all that asks a legitimate question. Other than the love Audio gd products get here on head fi, there doesn't seem to be anything that corroborates that anywhere else. Google searches yield nothing


 

  
  From what you're saying, I'd just get the B and be done with it.  If you can run optical instead of usb, than go without the usb and save $20 more.  
   
  There are very few people who have even heard both the A and the B to compare them, let alone having tested both with the MS2 headphone!
   
  As for audio-gd not being written up anywhere, of course they're not - they don't pay American advertisers, like everyone else 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  But seriously, people who know a lot about audio engineering have said again and again that their designs and specs look solid.  As to what specific dac/amp will sound best TO YOU, with YOUR headphones, that's something only you can say.


----------



## mythless

Just to chime in if people are wondering on the Sparrow's pre-amp ability.  Currently, I am using the sparrow as a dac+pre-amp for my Kicas and I have to say it sounds pretty good, no distortion at all.


----------



## Elanzer

If you're considering Sparrow for the MS2s, just be aware that your headphones are already very easily driven. Depending what you're using it for, there might be no noticeable benefit as they're high in efficiency and low impedance.  I have the MS1s and they show no noticable benefits with the Sparrow, only my low sensitivity AKG K240 and high ohm DT990s show improvement. I haven't used my MS1 very much since my DT990 are just better in every way to me, so don't take my word for it. It'll definitely give you an upgrade path if you ever decide to replace your MS2 for whatever reason anyways.
   
  The best for the dollar is going to be the Sparrow "B" version with the WM8741 installed (request this upon order), it's only $15 more for the B version to be upgraded apparently.


----------



## KneelJung

Quote: 





elanzer said:


> If you're considering Sparrow for the MS2s, just be aware that your headphones are already very easily driven. Depending what you're using it for, there might be no noticeable benefit as they're high in efficiency and low impedance.  I have the MS1s and they show no noticable benefits with the Sparrow, only my low sensitivity AKG K240 and high ohm DT990s show improvement. I haven't used my MS1 very much since my DT990 are just better in every way to me, so don't take my word for it. It'll definitely give you an upgrade path if you ever decide to replace your MS2 for whatever reason anyways.
> 
> The best for the dollar is going to be the Sparrow "B" version with the WM8741 installed (request this upon order), it's only $15 more for the B version to be upgraded apparently.


 

 I decided to go with the A version. $258 shipped from Pacific Valve. According to the email I got from Kingwa the basic with the Woolfson shipped is $209 and the A version is $276 shipped including pay pal fee. Other than being $20 dollars cheaper Pacific Valve also offers 30 day return policy. Kingwa might also I dont know. But if the unit needs repairs I can also have those done by Pacific Valve. Hopefully the latter wont be necessary.
   
  Ultimately I suppose the only way any of us can tell whether or not this stuff sounds good is to get it, plug it in, and hear what it sound like for ourselves. So I'll post some impressions when I get it.


----------



## AVU

Quote: 





kneeljung said:


> I decided to go with the A version. $258 shipped from Pacific Valve. According to the email I got from Kingwa the basic with the Woolfson shipped is $209 and the A version is $276 shipped including pay pal fee. Other than being $20 dollars cheaper Pacific Valve also offers 30 day return policy. Kingwa might also I dont know. But if the unit needs repairs I can also have those done by Pacific Valve. Hopefully the latter wont be necessary.
> 
> Ultimately I suppose the only way any of us can tell whether or not this stuff sounds good is to get it, plug it in, and hear what it sound like for ourselves. So I'll post some impressions when I get it.


 

 Wow, I had no idea that Pacific Valve had it cheaper than direct from Audio-Gd.  It's with the new 8741 chip?  That's good for new buyers to know!


----------



## AVU

Quote: 





elanzer said:


> If you're considering Sparrow for the MS2s, just be aware that your headphones are already very easily driven. Depending what you're using it for, there might be no noticeable benefit as they're high in efficiency and low impedance.  I have the MS1s and they show no noticable benefits with the Sparrow, only my low sensitivity AKG K240 and high ohm DT990s show improvement.


 

 I believe the JH13s are also very easily driven, but I note a substantial improvement between the sparrow and by computer or iphone's direct output, as well as my T3.


----------



## tim3320070

Quote:


kneeljung said:


> I decided to go with the A version. $258 shipped from Pacific Valve. According to the email I got from Kingwa the basic with the Woolfson shipped is $209 and the A version is $276 shipped including pay pal fee. Other than being $20 dollars cheaper Pacific Valve also offers 30 day return policy. Kingwa might also I dont know. But if the unit needs repairs I can also have those done by Pacific Valve. Hopefully the latter wont be necessary.
> 
> Ultimately I suppose the only way any of us can tell whether or not this stuff sounds good is to get it, plug it in, and hear what it sound like for ourselves. So I'll post some impressions when I get it.


 
  This does not make sense- Pacific Valve has a mark-up on all AGD gear- there must be a communication problem vs what you ordered and what Kingwa quoted. I bet Pacific has the 8740 vs Kingwa using the new 8741 chip now (more expensive)- has to be this.
   
  Edit: My Ref-8 is $1610 vs $1725 at PV


----------



## les_garten

Quote: 





tim3320070 said:


> Quote:
> This does not make sense- Pacific Valve has a mark-up on all AGD gear- there must be a communication problem vs what you ordered and what Kingwa quoted. I bet Pacific has the 8740 vs Kingwa using the new 8741 chip now (more expensive)- has to be this.
> 
> Edit: My Ref-8 is $1610 vs $1725 at PV


 


 That sounded strange to me as well.


----------



## KneelJung

Quote: 





tim3320070 said:


> Quote:
> This does not make sense- Pacific Valve has a mark-up on all AGD gear- there must be a communication problem vs what you ordered and what Kingwa quoted. I bet Pacific has the 8740 vs Kingwa using the new 8741 chip now (more expensive)- has to be this.
> 
> Edit: My Ref-8 is $1610 vs $1725 at PV


 

 Now you have me wondering. Their site says they had basics with the 8740 but they were out of stock. Had some new ones coming with the 1852 at the $183 price which would be same as Kingwa. I thought I understood that I was ordering an A with the 8741. I'm going to double check this. The more I think about it the 1852 may make more sense anyway if Kingwa has tuned both the ad chip and the Woolfson chip (8741) to be neutral. I read in another thread that the sound presented by both chips was very similar and that it was hard for most people to tell the difference. I'm also going to send Kingwa another email and get a quote on the Fun
   
   
*EDIT: *
_Spoke with Pacific Valve confirmed the $258 price was for the Sparrow with the 8741. Changed my order anyway to a basic with the ad 1852 for $183. After reading the through the Audio GD site again and a couple of other threads on here I started thinking there was not going to be enough difference to justify the $75 premium for me anyway. The basic does support the higher bit rate just not with the USB which I will just have to work around if I ever need to._


----------



## Currawong

When I tried the different chips with the Fun originally, there wasn't much in it.  I was also using headphones far better than most people would use with this kind of gear.  The main thing is, a couple of people found the predecessor to the Fun and Sparrow, the Compass, a little harsh, so anything that lowers the distortion I reckon is a good thing. In this case, it's the ACSS, better USB implementation and better DAC.  Beyond that, the critical thing will be the power supply, which would be addressed by buying better gear.
   
  I finally got around to ordering a couple of 8741 modules so I can have a play.


----------



## AVU

Could some kind of external regulator help with the power supply?


----------



## numbskull

Mine arrived very quickly to Brazil, but i got taxed, lol. I'm going to get it tomorrow, then i will post my impressions against my realtek onboard soundcard. I'm very curious to see the results.


----------



## miyinan

Quote: 





currawong said:


> When I tried the different chips with the Fun originally, there wasn't much in it.  I was also using headphones far better than most people would use with this kind of gear.  The main thing is, a couple of people found the predecessor to the Fun and Sparrow, the Compass, a little harsh, so anything that lowers the distortion I reckon is a good thing. In this case, it's the ACSS, better USB implementation and better DAC.  Beyond that, the critical thing will be the power supply, which would be addressed by buying better gear.
> 
> I finally got around to ordering a couple of 8741 modules so I can have a play.


 

 I saw that Audio-gd has handmade power supply cord for sale on their website. Will that be considered as a power supply ungrade and improve the SQ?


----------



## haloxt

Quote: 





avu said:


> Could some kind of external regulator help with the power supply?


 

 Are you referring to power conditioners/power filters?
   
  If so, power conditioners can reduce the AC noise before it enters the psu and gets filtered there. It's not really something I would say is essential for the sparrow though, especially considering they usually cost ~1/2 or more of the price of the sparrow. If you are considering something like the audio-gd power filter, a good amount of the cost goes into the ten copper outlets, not what I would call good price/performance to get if you only have a $250 dac/amp. But if you are connecting a whole home theater system or something, then I would say such a power filter is worth it.
   
  Quote: 





miyinan said:


> I saw that Audio-gd has handmade power supply cord for sale on their website. Will that be considered as a power supply ungrade and improve the SQ?


 
   
  Most people would not view upgrading power cables as a way to improve the psu. It may improve sound quality versus stock 6 ft 18 awg power cable however. My personal opinion is to just get a friend who can solder to make 10-14 awg 3 ft power cables for you. The audio-gd power cables are quite massive, overkill for the sparrow 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.


----------



## Elanzer

Well I got my WM8741 module. I won't know until a long listening session, but for now it seems to have smoothed over the brightness of my DT 990s a bit, definitely noticeable in a certain part of "Twisted Coil" by "Guilt Machine". Some parts of it were too bright and left me reaching for the volume knob, but now I don't feel the need. Most importantly it solved my curiosity.
   
   
  Anyways, here's how it looks installed in the Sparrow for anyone curious. It was easy to solder, I simply removed both modules and soldered on my desk instead of trying to squeeze my crappy iron and unsteady hand in there.


----------



## les_garten

Nicely Instructive PIC, Thanx!


----------



## Vic Trola

Quote: 





tim3320070 said:


> Quote:
> This does not make sense- Pacific Valve has a mark-up on all AGD gear- there must be a communication problem vs what you ordered and what Kingwa quoted. I bet Pacific has the 8740 vs Kingwa using the new 8741 chip now (more expensive)- has to be this.
> 
> Edit: My Ref-8 is $1610 vs $1725 at PV


 

 Ah, um, not sure what you mean.  Our prices should be identical to your door (unless you are in CAN, AK, PR, HI etc).  Please email me if the prices do not agree with the AGD website - I could use the help.
   
  AGD REF 8, non USB is $1610 + $119 shipping  = $1729.   I believe our price shipped to your door is, as you correctly pointed out, $1725.


----------



## Currawong

Quote: 





miyinan said:


> I saw that Audio-gd has handmade power supply cord for sale on their website. Will that be considered as a power supply ungrade and improve the SQ?


 
   
  A number of us felt a bit of improvement using the power cords, but the power filter board with 10 outlets costs only a bit more, so is far better value if you have or plan to buy audio gear in the future.


----------



## miyinan

Quote: 





currawong said:


> A number of us felt a bit of improvement using the power cords, but the power filter board with 10 outlets costs only a bit more, so is far better value if you have or plan to buy audio gear in the future.


 

 Thanks Currawong. I didn't even see that
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. I will look into the power filter.


----------



## kr0gg

Quote: 





currawong said:


> A number of us felt a bit of improvement using the power cords, but the power filter board with 10 outlets costs only a bit more, so is far better value if you have or plan to buy audio gear in the future.


 

 what low-budget power filter would you advice?
   
  PS: for some reason audio-gd's site doesn't say anything about their filter's cost.


----------



## Currawong

Quote: 





kr0gg said:


> what low-budget power filter would you advice?
> 
> PS: for some reason audio-gd's site doesn't say anything about their filter's cost.


 

 It's on the price list page for $105.  I have a Silver Circle Audio Juice Box Jr here too, which is much the same thing, but with only 2 outlets.  Between a power cord with debatable benefits (they are very controversial, if you didn't already know, though personally I've found them to have some benefit) and a box with noise filtering circuits in it, it's an easy choice IMO.


----------



## tim3320070

Quote: 





vic trola said:


> Ah, um, not sure what you mean.  Our prices should be identical to your door (unless you are in CAN, AK, PR, HI etc).  Please email me if the prices do not agree with the AGD website - I could use the help.
> 
> AGD REF 8, non USB is $1610 + $119 shipping  = $1729.   I believe our price shipped to your door is, as you correctly pointed out, $1725.


 
  My apologies. I didn't realize shipping was free. I saw the $1725 price and assumed shipping would be added. I may be using you instead.


----------



## Vic Trola

Quote: 





tim3320070 said:


> My apologies. I didn't realize shipping was free. I saw the $1725 price and assumed shipping would be added. I may be using you instead.


 

 Why, Thank you, Tim!


----------



## Nanago

Hey guys, just wanted to drop by for some initial impressions of my W1000x's with the Sparrow Version A I received today.
   
*Disclaimer*: These are _initial_ impressions. I don't know how great my ability to discern minute differences in sound quality is, but I _can_ detect the improvement in sound quality when using the 24/96 DAC output of the Sparrow. The first couple of hours I listened, I had a migraine. The most recent hours have been headache-free thanks to tynenol, so I will base my impressions from the latter hours.
   
Initial Impressions_: _I can already tell that this matchup has _no_ synergy whatsoever. The shortcomings of the W1000x are mostly from the sibilance of it's bright presentation and the Sparrow does not fix that - it actually amplifies it. The crash of cymbals will make you cringe and synthesized xylophones will overpower the rest of the presentation. If before the W1000x was not suitable for modern pop, then it definitely will ruin it for you after coupling it with the Sparrow. The *highs* are extended in a phone that had too much extension on them already. Higher frequencies will be piercing.
   
  The *mids* are the next to be targeted: audio-technica headphones are famous for their forward presentation of their mids and this is no exception for the W1000x, although it is more balanced than the ESW9 it seems. The mids seem to have been pulled back from the presentation a bit; they are not recessed at any means, but at this point they are less "natural" sounding than I remembered them being straight from my ASUS laptop's headphone out. Close listening shows that the detail of the presentation has actually improved, but the decay of piano notes that previously hung in the air seems muted.
   
  The *bass* has actually _improved_. It has become punchier and tighter - the problem with this is that before the Sparrow it was punchy enough to begin with. If songs have poorly recorded bass or overpowering amounts of it, you might feel like the Sparrow is trying to punch out your eardrums at times. On other recordings, the bass is right on the dot and engaging. Your head may begin to shake up and down uncontrollably. It is one of the better qualities of these phones, and the Sparrow does the right job with them - somtimes.
   
Conclusion: From what I've heard so far, the Sparrow seems to transform the W1000x's natural presentation into something more "analytical." I must say that I'm a bit disappointed so far into this affair, but it isn't something completely disastrous. _The pairing will make your W1000x's great with Jazz and Classical, but probably ruin all other genres._ The W1000xs were already good in those areas, but they are now elevated to another level. The Sparrow will turn the W1000x into a "neutral and analytical" presenter - if that is not your cup of tea, then this is not the right combo for you.
   
  I want to remind you again that this is only an_ initial _impression. With time I might find the presentation to present itself differently - or my W1000x's might begin to "burn-in" and change their sonic qualities. All things in this review should be taken with a bucket of salt rather than a grain. The best way of finding out whether your musical tastes match is to take a chance in Russian roulette - I strongly advise you to try it out for yourself, as Head-fi has an excellent trade section and it is almost guaranteed with audio-gd products that you will suffer only minimal losses.
   
   

 
*--An update has arrived! Check page 42 for the final impressions.--*


----------



## Epoch

I see that you decided to get both components at once.  I hope that you find that you like the sound more after giving it a bit of time.
  Out of curiosity, are you using USB or SPDIF on the Sparrow, and did you get the 24/94 or 24/192KHz version?
  A little more detail on music used would also be good, I am just interested in what exactly you are testing and what you are testing it with.


----------



## haloxt

Nanago, the sparrow will mellow out somewhat after 1-2 weeks of being left on which I highly recommend doing. I would also suggest burning in your new headphones at low volume because people who believe in headphone burn-in usually say it is the highs that mellow out over time. I said it a few times before, but I forgot to mention to you, but the sparrow does not pair well with certain genres of music. The good thing about laptop out or mp3 players is that they are very often forgiving of, say, loud rock music, and synergize to produce an euphonic sound. Play loud rock music on the sparrow and it might seem like a smorgasbord of aggression, especially first few hours of having the sparrow. Let it burn in and it will loosen its iron grip on the highs


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## KneelJung

Quote: 





haloxt said:


> Play loud rock music on the sparrow and it might seem like a smorgasbord of aggression, especially first few hours of having the sparrow. Let it burn in and it will loosen its iron grip on the highs


 


 I'm waiting on mine now, and that sort of comment is not the sort of thing I'm looking for. It's also got me thinkinhg the Sparrow may not synergize well with my MS2's.


----------



## haloxt

Well the problem isn't really the sparrow, except the sparrow doesn't have massive soundstage or very fleshed out decay, but that once you go up to a certain level in neutral gear, you start hearing a pretty truthful portrayal of recording quality and intent of the musicians. Music that is originally fatiguing and aggressive with excessive use of dynamics, like heavy metal, will likely sound just like that on the sparrow. Don't get me started on the recording quality of many modern genres -_-, but the sparrow is revealing enough to make some albums unlistenable just because of this. I think this is less so on the discontinued compass which wasn't quite as technically capable as the sparrow.


----------



## KneelJung

Quote: 





haloxt said:


> Well the problem isn't really the sparrow, except the sparrow doesn't have massive soundstage or very fleshed out decay, but that once you go up to a certain level in neutral gear, you start hearing a pretty truthful portrayal of recording quality and intent of the musicians. Music that is originally fatiguing and aggressive with excessive use of dynamics, like heavy metal, will likely sound just like that on the sparrow. Don't get me started on the recording quality of many modern genres -_-, but the sparrow is revealing enough to make some albums unlistenable just because of this. I think this is less so on the discontinued compass which wasn't quite as technically capable as the sparrow.


 

 Well I dont really listen to a lot of modern genres, mostly bluesy classic rock sort of stuff. If I understand your perceptions correctly though you seem to be saying the Sparrow is more analytical than musical. My real goal in getting a new Dac / Amp combo to replace my uDAC was to get something that sounded a warmer with a little more oomph from the amp than what the uDAC has. It seems I may have miscalculated a bit. Perhaps what I should have done is feed a tube amp with my uDAC. I dont really want to fiddle with tubes though. Maybe I should have listened to the Pacific Valve guy from the get go and given the Musiland monitor more serious consideration. Ultimately I'm not really looking for hifi sound. All I really want is a decent mid fi sound that gets my toes tapping.


----------



## Philimon

Quote: 





kneeljung said:


> Well I dont really listen to a lot of modern genres, mostly bluesy classic rock sort of stuff. If I understand your perceptions correctly though you seem to be saying the Sparrow is more analytical than musical. My real goal in getting a new Dac / Amp combo to replace my uDAC was to get something that sounded a warmer with a little more oomph from the amp than what the uDAC has. It seems I may have miscalculated a bit. Perhaps what I should have done is feed a tube amp with my uDAC. I dont really want to fiddle with tubes though. Maybe I should have listened to the Pacific Valve guy from the get go and given the Musiland monitor more serious consideration. Ultimately I'm not really looking for hifi sound. All I really want is a decent mid fi sound that gets my toes tapping.


 

 I own the uDac and upgraded to the Sparrow with AD1852. I doubt you will be getting the AD1852 model so my comments are not all too helpful. 
   
  On immediate impressions the Sparrow seems to have more oomph in the lower frequencies (When used as headphone out which I assume the more powerful amp is the key. I couldn't really tell when used a preamp/dac...) and an emphasis on the highs (an effect of the AD1852 FWIR) when compared to uDac. I ordered a new headphone that is supposedly pretty neutral - FA003. If I find the highs too much when combined with the Sparrow like I did with my Stax Lamda, then I am going to exchange the DAC module for one of the newer ones (wm8740/1). By the way I preferred the uDac vs Sparrow when it came to the Stax because of the Stax's already slightly tilted natured towards highs, but I prefer the Sparrow with my PK1 and PX100 which both have upper frequency/highs roll off. The Senn HD580/600/650 are supposed to have rolled off highs like PX100 kin, so I have a feeling they will pair nicely with my Sparrow. I guess I may make one last effort with an HD600 before ditching the AD1852 Sparrow.
   
  I will let you know how I feel with the FA003. If I do decide on a different DAC module is necessary, then I will likely sell the Sparrow all together and get a new one spec'd exactly like AVU's. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  I would like to make note that my impressions were mostly from a only quick A/B comparison. I haven't been using my uDac at all since getting the Sparrow, so I will likely reaffirm my initial impressions by listening to the uDac one more time before selling the Sparrow.
   
  KneelJung have you noticed your uDac to have an imbalance issue? Mind does, and that is why I have not used it since getting the Sparrow. I didn't notice an imbalance with my lower-end heapdhones, but with the more revealing Stax it was obvious. I can't sell my uDac knowing its defective, so now it just collects dust.


----------



## Nanago

Haha, I guess I did get both at the same time... I didn't plan on it, but sometimes things were just meant to be, I guess. I originally ordered just the Sparrow, but a quick peek at the FS forums revealed a mint W1000x for sale at a killer price, and now we know how that turned out, eh?
   
  Currently I'm using the USB output on my Sparrow -  I'm not sure if the Version A USB goes to 192/24, but right now I'm using a 96/24 rate that seems to pull out sounds from the background and recording I haven't noticed before. It's not a night and day difference - I still have to pay close attention to the music or else they go right on by unnoticed - but it's a marked improvement from where it was before. The songs I've used for review on the Sparrow were:
   
*Classical:*
  Marie Tsuda, Je te veux
  Ewa Poblocka, Moments musicaux
  Air on the G String (Orchestral Suite No. 3 in D)
  Vladmir Horowitz, Waldstein (I - Allegro con brio)
*Alternative Rock/Underground:*
  Linkin Park, Papercut
  Bike for Three, More Heart than Brains
  Flying Lotus, Do the Astral Plane
*Pop:*
  Barenaked Ladies, One Week
  Kozue Takada, Himitsu Kichi
  Nino, Groovin' Magic
*Vocals/Jazz:*
  Norah Jones, Cold Cold Heart
  Diana Krall, The Boy From Ipanema
  Beyonce, If I were a Boy
  Rihanna, Umbrella
   
  Of these I liked the whole classical section and Beyonce the best, surprisingly - Diana Krall's Ipanema actually smoothed out over the course of the song while Norah Jones' voice got huskier. All of these files were FLAC encoded and above 700kbps, so I'm certain this isn't a "garbage in- garbage out" problem. I'll try the burn-in and see what changes, but I'm not a firm believer of drivers or opamps changing compositions over time. The only time I've actually had the effects of "burn-in" happen was when my old laptop's graphics card tanked and I had to wrap it in towels to get the solder to reaffirm itself 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## Epoch

USB doesn't go up to 24/192, only SPDIF does if you have the 24/192 receiver.
   
  I would give it more time as long as it isn't painful or you just hate it.  I have found at times its possible to dislike something because it sounds different, but you get used to it and find that you prefer it overall.  If you spend some time with it and don't like it no matter what, that is a different story.
  Also, some music is harsh if your gear is neutral and can represent it as it was recorded.  I am not saying that any of your music choices are bad, its just that some music doesn't sound as great when you can actually hear what they recorded, as opposed to some coloration that helps to gloss over a poor aspect of a recording.


----------



## AVU

Quote: 





haloxt said:


> Music that is originally fatiguing and aggressive with excessive use of dynamics, like heavy metal, will likely sound just like that on the sparrow.


 
   
  That's interesting, because I've actually come to really, really like my hardest rock and metal with the new sparrow, despite the fact that I don't listen to those genres that much anymore (I'm more into Mozart at the moment.)  After 250 hours, the initial harshness seems to have tamed and the whole thing feels much tighter.  I remember when I first got the 8741 from the 1852, I felt like I had stepped down, or at best stayed even.  Now I finally feel like it's gotten to an improvement.  Still like this much better than the tricked out ibasso D4 dac/amp it replaced.  But the exact audio signature isn't going to be the same, since I probably have a very different chain from most people.  Off a macbook pro, I'm running Pure Music in upsampling mode with the Redline Monitor crossfeed plugin and a small amount of apple's reverb through toslink to the Sparrow 8471 A to JH13 Pros.


----------



## Currawong

When we were first playing with the Audio-gd OPAMPs, I found that, purely from the heat generated by leaving whatever they were in switched on, they would change over the first 350 hours. I was dubious until had 3 in a Zero DAC, all at the same time gain a rolled-off treble for around 50 hours, only to return to normal.  When I first got the Fun, the highs were quite harsh and mellowed out after having been left on for a couple of weeks.  I'm pretty sure it's the effect of heat on the transistors.


----------



## KneelJung

Quote: 





philimon said:


> I own the uDac and upgraded to the Sparrow with AD1852. I doubt you will be getting the AD1852 model so my comments are not all too helpful.
> 
> <SNIP>
> 
> KneelJung have you noticed your uDac to have an imbalance issue? Mind does, and that is why I have not used it since getting the Sparrow. I didn't notice an imbalance with my lower-end heapdhones, but with the more revealing Stax it was obvious. I can't sell my uDac knowing its defective, so now it just collects dust.


 

 Actually Philimon I got the 1852. I had originally ordered the A version with the 8741 but then I sort of came to the conclusion that the sound signatures of both versions were too similar based on comments in other posts and threads to justify the difference in cost. Something that AVU seems to confirm in his post just above. I will be forming my own impressions soon enough, My biggest concern after reading some of the more recent comments is that the Sparrow is likely to make my MS2's even brighter than they already are and that's not the direction I want to go in. Although it sounds like the Sparrow may have great synergy with the HF2 and that's a headphone option that I'm contemplating.
   
  As far as any imbalance issues with the uDAC I dont think so, it seems to be working properly. What is it your hearing with your uDAC?


----------



## Philimon

Quote: 





kneeljung said:


> Actually Philimon I got the 1852. I had originally ordered the A version with the 8741 but then I sort of came to the conclusion that the sound signatures of both versions were too similar based on comments in other posts and threads to justify the difference in cost. Something that AVU seems to confirm in his post just above. I will be forming my own impressions soon enough, My biggest concern after reading some of the more recent comments is that the Sparrow is likely to make my MS2's even brighter than they already are and that's not the direction I want to go in. Although it sounds like the Sparrow may have great synergy with the HF2 and that's a headphone option that I'm contemplating.
> 
> As far as any imbalance issues with the uDAC I dont think so, it seems to be working properly. What is it your hearing with your uDAC?


 

 I think the 1852 is the wrong match for an already bright headphone. By the way I have tried the MS2i and I liked it, because I had read it was excessively bright compared to other Grado but I was pleasantly surprised to find that it wasn't the case. Unless the regular MS2 is that much different from the MS2i... Or perhaps I had tried the MS2i, but was recalling what I had read about the 325i. Hmm, never mind.
   
  I am too interested in keeping the 1852 in order to try pairing with headphones with some rolled off upper frequency, and to see if I can find good synergy. I've tried the HF2 at a meet and it was definitely the warmest sounding Grado, and so perhaps it would be complimented by the 1852. The HD600 was on sale new last week for $225, and I would have picked one up if I hadn't already ordered something supposedly very similar in sound (FA003). 
   
  I believe it is the left channel that is slightly louder on my uDac. Several other people have complained about the same thing in the uDac thread. One owner sent his back to the company for a replacement due to channel imbalance, and I believe he ended up replacing uDacs a total of 4 times. I don't know if the 4th worked out for him or not... 
   

 
   
  I forgot to mention that the original 8740 is supposed to have a bit of treble roll off, and perhaps that would work to benefit a Grado type phone that you might think is too bright? On the AudioGD website it says that the 8740 has been re-voiced to sound more neutral, so you may no longer be able to pick up the original 8740. You could try asking if you could get the old WM8740, or try picking up somebody's old 8740 DAC module and solder that into your Sparrow.


----------



## KneelJung

My phones are actually the MS2i's Philimon, and I dont find them bright per se I just dont necessarily find them as warm as I would like.I think it's the 325's that have the reputation for being a little to bright and the MS2i's are supposed to have that tweaked out of them. Which is the reason I bought them; and for the most part that seems to be the case.
   
  Although they dont do well with some of the stuff in my library, they do tremendously well with a lot of it. My biggest complaint is the bass so maybe the Sparrow will fix that.


----------



## HectorNavarro

Quote: 





philimon said:


> I am too interested in keeping the 1852 in order to try pairing with headphones with some rolled off upper frequency, and to see if I can find good synergy. I've tried the HF2 at a meet and it was definitely the warmest sounding Grado, and so perhaps it would be complimented by the 1852. *The HD600 was on sale new last week for $225,* and I would have picked one up if I hadn't already ordered something supposedly very similar in sound (FA003).


 

 Where are the HD600 on sale?


----------



## Philimon

Quote: 





hectornavarro said:


> Where are the HD600 on sale?


 


  I believe it was at ecost.com, though it was supposed to be only for a limited time and so it may have expired already. There was a thread specifically on the ecost deal, just try searching "HD600" and "sale" in the headphone subforum.


----------



## KneelJung

My Sparrow just got here and my first impression is that the sound signature is way different than the uDAC. And so far I think I may prefer the sound of the uDAC. Of course that just may be the way my brain is interpreting the new signature. I've been listening to the uDAC since February and I've only been listening to the Sparrow now for about an hour but so far my impression is, meh.
   
  I am sort of inclined to put it right back in the box and send it back, but I'll give it a couple of days let my head wrap itself around the new sound and let the thing burn in a little.
   
  Another thing I find odd is at the 1 oclock position on the volume, the thing doesnt even to seem to have as much volume as the uDAC. Although it will drive my phones to volumes I would never listen at anyway and will get louder than the uDAC, the amp doesnt seem that much more powerful than the one in the uDAC which has taken quite a bit of criticism.
   
  I'm at a loss though as to why some people raved about this thing.


----------



## macrog

I have found that Audio-gd gear does not sound that good when first plugged in. It takes at least a few days to settle.  I thought my Reference 1 DAC was horrible for the first 3 days. Now  love it. Leave it with music going through it for a few days then have a critical listen.
   
  Regards
   
  Macrog


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## les_garten

My experience with a lot of audio gear, is that you may not appreciate the difference at first.
   
  I didn't like the REF1 the first 7 days.
   
  Now I wouldn't have anything else. I don't know if it was breakin or some familiarity with what it does well after a week, but then I started loving it.
   
  If there is a coloration difference or a neutrality difference, you may have grown to like that.  And now the coloration is gone.  Kinda like the Girlfriend with the crooked nose, then you upgrade to the GF with the straight nose.
   
  Then comes the eternal question:
   
_*"Do I like Crooked or Straight Noses?!"*_
   
  Give it an honest week or two, then go back to the uDAC and see what's what.
   
  He warns folks usually about "How Neutral" some of his gear is.  Also, the inky blackness of his gear is not appreciated necessarily at first.  You may perceive it as dark.  The other thing about good clean power is that you may not notice it is still getting louder, but it may be.  It is easy to go way too loud with his gear.  I've never had clipping or distortion stop the vol knob on his gear like it does on a lot of other Good Gear.


----------



## Philimon

Quote: 





kneeljung said:


> My Sparrow just got here and my first impression is that the sound signature is way different than the uDAC. And so far I think I may prefer the sound of the uDAC. Of course that just may be the way my brain is interpreting the new signature. I've been listening to the uDAC since February and I've only been listening to the Sparrow now for about an hour but so far my impression is, meh.
> 
> I am sort of inclined to put it right back in the box and send it back, but I'll give it a couple of days let my head wrap itself around the new sound and let the thing burn in a little.
> 
> ...


 

 I had the same reaction regarding the uDac vs Sparrow too. The difference is that I can't go back to the uDac, because I don't want to deal with the imbalance. I also am going to have to drop the AD1852 for the WM8741, so I can get a preferable sound signature. AVU was _this_ close to selling me his Sparrow with 8741 the other day, but he had to back off unfortunately. Apparently there was an awesomely priced higher end amp/DAC in the F/S section, and AVU needed funds, but it sold too quickly...
   
  Edit:
   
  I forgot to mention I also agree with les_garten. I haven't had much experience with amps/DACs, but I have the same opinion about how it takes time to appreciate the at-first subtle qualities of better equipment. Once you get used to the better equipment, switching back to less quality gear does not feel as subtle as upgrading. You've become used to the good stuff and going back is harder, because you are now aware of what you are missing.


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## KneelJung

Quote: 





philimon said:


> I had the same reaction regarding the uDac vs Sparrow too. The difference is that I can't go back to the uDac, because I don't want to deal with the imbalance. I also am going to have to drop the AD1852 for the WM8741, so I can get a preferable sound signature. AVU was _this_ close to selling me his Sparrow with 8741 the other day, but he had to back off unfortunately. Apparently there was an awesomely priced higher end amp/DAC in the F/S section, and AVU needed funds, but it sold too quickly...


 
  So is that imbalance issue with the uDAC straight out of the headphone out?
   
  Because I dont hear it or notice one, which might mean mine doesnt have it.
   
  Anyway, It's funny but I had originally ordered the Sparrow with the 8741 and changed my mind and got the basic. My reasoning was based on some things I read in other threads, one being something Kingwa himself supposedly said; was that because of the way the Sparrow is tuned (neutral) it's hard to hear the differences. I dont recall where I read that but it seemed to make sense. mMybe the 8741 is a little warmer but still neutral however that may sound. I just think this thing sounds sort of flat and dull, so maybe I like crooked noses who knows but I'll give it a chance.


----------



## Philimon

Yep, synergy and sound preference is very important. There is nothing wrong with preferring a different sound signature from "neutral", though I don't find the AD1852 neutral. I think most on Head-Fi don't prefer dead neutral, they would prefer something to them sounds more engaging/fun/musical, or whatever.
   
  Most impressions on this thread, including my own, found the AD1852 bright sounding (my reference would be the uDac RCA out, which Skylab says sounds better than the headphone out on the uDac). I have read that the WM8741 not only fixes the bright/edgy sound, but can also sound warmer to some (more bass).  
   
  Actually, I have only noticed the sound imbalance with analogue RCA out on the uDac. I have never listened closely with critical headphones on the headphone out section.


----------



## haloxt

Quote: 





kneeljung said:


> Another thing I find odd is at the 1 oclock position on the volume, the thing doesnt even to seem to have as much volume as the uDAC. Although it will drive my phones to volumes I would never listen at anyway and will get louder than the uDAC, the amp doesnt seem that much more powerful than the one in the uDAC which has taken quite a bit of criticism.


 

 1 o clock with the MS2 headphones? I am not sure, but are they 32 ohm 100dB/mW sensitivity? I don't think the volume should be turned on quite that high. Are you sure the headphone jack is inserted fully? Maybe something is defective inside, I would have someone who knows what he is doing open it up and take a look inside if you are using it at 1 o clock with the MS-2 headphones. Also, if you are using the computer, make sure to set the volume to zero on your sparrow, then make sure windows volume is set properly, just to be safe, set software volumes to 100% while sparrow is set to 0% volume, then use sparrow volume control as your master volume.


----------



## AVU

That does sound a bit strange.  I can't actually turn the volume that high on my JH13s without my head exploding.  And my Sparrow is an extra low gain model too.  
   
  Quote: 





haloxt said:


> 1 o clock with the MS2 headphones? I am not sure, but are they 32 ohm 100dB/mW sensitivity? I don't think the volume should be turned on quite that high. Are you sure the headphone jack is inserted fully? Maybe something is defective inside, I would have someone who knows what he is doing open it up and take a look inside if you are using it at 1 o clock with the MS-2 headphones. Also, if you are using the computer, make sure to set the volume to zero on your sparrow, then make sure windows volume is set properly, just to be safe, set software volumes to 100% while sparrow is set to 0% volume, then use sparrow volume control as your master volume.


----------



## les_garten

I have one set of phones that the Jack doesn't seat properly.  I had the same problem.  Sounded thin and Flat and I was cranking the hell out of it.  I pushed the jack in a little harder and it came alive and about blew my ears out.  The jack ain't super impressive for sure.


----------



## movi

good to see some more in-depth analysis on the sparrow coming out now.
   
  i have tuned out for a bit while i wait to accumulate some cash for this purchase. now that Version A comes with 8741 i'm definitely gonna spring for that one.
   
  it'll be a couple more months, but when i finally get to make this my x-mas present to myself, i'll be sure to post impressions after a few weeks of burn-in. i'll be good at writing a "lay-man's impressions" post since i'm fairly sensitive to sound (i think) but have very little experience with different gear. i can post about the sound and synergy with HD-650s and D2000s and FLAC source, including some 24/96 material for the fun of it! but ya it'll be a little while still... : )


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## KneelJung

Quote: 





haloxt said:


> 1 o clock with the MS2 headphones? I am not sure, but are they 32 ohm 100dB/mW sensitivity? I don't think the volume should be turned on quite that high. Are you sure the headphone jack is inserted fully?


 
  Good catch Haloxt, that was precisely the problem. Working much better now. Plenty of volume between 9 and 10 and it doesnt sound dull and flat either, go figure. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  Edit: What a difference 24 hours and a fully inserted headphone jack make


----------



## Nanago

Quote: 





kneeljung said:


> Good catch Haloxt, that was precisely the problem. Working much better now. Plenty of volume between 9 and 10 and it doesnt sound dull and flat either, go figure.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Haha, what an awesome and quick solution to your problems! My problems were took a bit longer to get rid of, but there you have it - the Sparrow's been "burnt-in!"
   
*--Update Time!--*
   
  It's been a while since I've had the Sparrow and I've hated it until about a couple of days ago. Like you guys told me to, I've left it on for a couple of weeks now and have been poking in a listen here or there to see progress and just recently, it seems the sound's finally settled. And what a sound it is! *Treble* is still extended, but the bite to it seems to have gone, which was my main issue. *Bass* also seems to have settled for a compromise between emphasis and extension, leaving a satisfyingly deep sound while keeping it clean and jumpy enough to have me bobbing my head once in a while. The mids are excellent as always, and perhaps slightly smoother than before. The W1000x are now perfectly accustomed to working with the little black bird it seems, and both are performing excellently.
   
  There seems to be something about this combo and the "synergy" it's finally created with each other. The best way to describe it seems to be as if the sound were "encapsulated" within a small but wonderfully acoustic room - a miniature concert hall, even. The music has a satisfying "reverb"-like tonality to it alongside with an "isolated" sense of space - a kind of absolute separation from outside noise that makes me want to keep listening even to the wee hours of the night nowadays (which is doing horrors to my sleep schedule and performance). I would definitely recommend anyone with a W1000x to try the Sparrow out now - just be aware that it may take weeks of "burn-in" for these to actually get sounding the way you might want them to. I look forward to any impressions or reviews that reflect or oppose my experiences.


----------



## Epoch

Its very good to see that you no longer dislike your purchases.


----------



## Nanago

Haha, I'm glad too. For a while I was having a severe bout of buyer's remorse....ulcers, migraines, and all the good stuff 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. Glad I stuck it out though, it's definitely worth it now. Also, does anyone else have a Sparrow running at extra hot? It used to run at warm for days, but now it's almost a hazard...


----------



## Currawong

Kingwa's designs attach the FETs to the chassis, so it acts as one large heatsink.  This can be a bit alarming at first as it means they get quite warm, but it's not actually a problem.  It's not unlike those DIY cases with the heatsinks built into the sides, but here it's the whole case.


----------



## Nanago

That's cool. I can use it for a handwarmer once the snow hits, I guess 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## bigandtall

Just purchased this amp: 
  http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/515926/fs-audio-gd-sparrow-headphone-amp#post_6997346
   
  A basic B Sparrow. Traded in my Mini3 for the funds. I don't have much to compare it to, but I'm looking forward to getting to know this amp! I will report once I've had time to really enjoy it.


----------



## bigandtall

Just thought I'd ask... has anyone tried to "add" line-in jacks? That's just about the only thing that I think the Sparrow is missing.


----------



## KneelJung

Now that I've had the Sparrow for a couple of weeks my impressions are very favorable. My initial impressions were of course a bit distorted because of operator error; as well as thinking I preferred the colored presentation of the uDAC to the more neutral sound of the Sparrow. Actually now that I've been listening to the Sparrow for a couple of weeks I prefer the more neutral sound.
   
  Anyway the reasons I bought it were that the reviews of the other Audio GD products generally seemed very favorable. I liked the look of it; and I liked that it had it's own power source rather than USB. So my simplistic review of the Sparrow is it looks good and it sounds good. It also synergizes really well with my SR60's.
   
  I had some MS2i's when I bought it but those are now winding there way to South America. In the mean time I'm gaining a whole new appreciation for the 60's while I wait for my HF2's to arrive.


----------



## olor1n

Quote: 





les_garten said:


> I have one set of phones that the Jack doesn't seat properly.  I had the same problem.  Sounded thin and Flat and I was cranking the hell out of it.  I pushed the jack in a little harder and it came alive and about blew my ears out.  The jack ain't super impressive for sure.


 
   
  I've had my Audio-GD Fun for about two months now and have been quite happy with it apart from a minor issue with the volume pot that I obsessed over for a few days (I think you might have given me advice on that in the official Fun thread). I've just noticed this issue with my headphone jack and frankly I'm greatly disappointed with Audio-GD's quality control. There were times when my headphones (MS-1i) seemed to sound thinner and less dynamic but because it was quite subtle I didn't take much notice (and yes I'm confident the plug was inserted into the jack properly). Recently and especially through my M50 using a different 1/8" to 1/4" adapter, I've sometimes noticed a channel imbalance when plugging my headphones in. Turning the plug while it's in the headphone jack will fix the problem but I find this now constant need to find the "sweet" spot utterly unacceptable. It makes me wonder if those that have been unhappy with their Audio-GD units in the past may have had similar issues but were unaware of the cause.


----------



## les_garten

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *olor1n* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
   

 Hey,
     I wouldn't call it a quality control problem.  It's a parts-choice-selection problem.
   
  When Currawong started the Compass project he convinced KW to not use the "Fake" Neutrik he had been using and use a real Neutrik.  A-GD lapses into using cheap local qulaity stuff, where they can get away with it.  Sometimes this works to their advantage.  For instance, I'm sure he sources his cases at a low price.  They are good serviceable cases and I like them.  However, sometimes the lids are loose, tight, whatever.  The taps are cross threaded, etc.
   
  This is a minor irritant, because you listen to it, not constantly fool with the lid.  So that's OK.  However, going cheap on the Jack, can as you are finding out, be a source of constant frustration and basically lead to failure. Or FAIL as it were.
   
  It does sound like you need a new Jack perhaps.  I may look at mine and contemplate replacing it with something of better quality.
   
  I'm think I'm going to go pull the lid off and look it over.
   
  N.B. ==  I pulled the lid and looked it over.  Not the highest quality feeling jack.  It is quite a production though.  Mounted on a sub-board with an interesting wire-up.  I'm wondering if the jack shoyldn't be just a little closer to the face of the amp?
   
  There is a little play in ow that jack is mounted.  It is kinda mounted on top of a stand-off.  It is not secured at all to the front of the amp.  This makes it a little unstable.  The "beak" of it is threaded for a nut.  Possibly that nut should have been used to "secure" to the front plate.  As it stands now, when you plug in there's a little push into the case with the jack, due to the play in the mount.  A fix might be to ream the hole a little and mount the nut that comes with these type jacks.


----------



## olor1n

Hey les, thanks for your reply. Kingwa has replied to my emails about this but I feel like I'm in limbo. If I go through the hassle of sending it back for repair I know I'll be greatly out of pocket, even with their shipping reimbursement, for a problem that some may consider as minor. The thing that gnaws at my OCD is that it is something that affects sound quality. Considering the cost of the damn thing, and despite Kingwa's quick replies I feel somewhat cheated. I may as well just use my Fiio E7. At least it's consistent.


----------



## olor1n

les, your findings pretty much confirm what I suspected. Unfortunately I don't have a DIY bone in my body. I've asked Kingwa about the possibility of modifying the socket with a better quality one. This a real downer for me. I was about to pull the trigger on an Alessandro MS Pro but I just can't justify that now with this setup.


----------



## les_garten

I've been looking over the Jack for some time now.  I may shoot some pix tomorrow of what the issue may be.  If you pick up the Sparrow and push your thumb into the brass portion of the Jack, you will feel it move into the case.
   
  If you grab the board that the jack is mounted to, you can feel it move side to side.  So there is some fore and aft, and side to side play in the jack.  If the plug has some manufacturing play in it, you can get an intermittent contact condition. 
   
  The jack has some mounting issues as well, that might be issues down the road with a lot of plug IN/OUT cycles.  This will all be obvious from some Macro shots.
   
  The replacement Neutrik jack doesn't cost much.  Luckily A-GD started using Plugs on a lot of it's Sub-board wiring, that makes things easier.  Probably take about an hour or so to replace with a Neutrik that is mounted to the front Panel.
  
  Quote: 





olor1n said:


> les, your findings pretty much confirm what I suspected. Unfortunately I don't have a DIY bone in my body. I've asked Kingwa about the possibility of modifying the socket with a better quality one. This a real downer for me. I was about to pull the trigger on an Alessandro MS Pro but I just can't justify that now with this setup.


----------



## olor1n

les, thank you so much. I don't have the Sparrow. I have the Fun but what you've described sounds like a highly plausible explanation for my issue. Kingwa replied to my question about replacing the socket with a better quality one (I have the B version of the Fun btw) and he stated it'd be costly as it would also require a replacement face plate, in contadiction to what you've stated. Hmm.


----------



## les_garten

I have a FUN, I'll look at it.
   
   
  EDIT:
    FUN is much different, and has a much better Jack.  You were in the Sparrow thread,so I thought that was what you were talking about, my bad.
   
   
  I'll go back and look over your posts with FUN in mind.
   
  ............
   
  OK, now I feel like Roseanne  Rosannadanna! Never Mind!
   
  I would look carefully over your adapter.
   
   
  Quote: 





olor1n said:


> les, thank you so much. I don't have the Sparrow. I have the Fun but what you've described sounds like a highly plausible explanation for my issue. Kingwa replied to my question about replacing the socket with a better quality one (I have the B version of the Fun btw) and he stated it'd be costly as it would also require a replacement face plate, in contadiction to what you've stated. Hmm.


----------



## olor1n

Yeah I posted here because what you last posted related to my issue. Kingwa did suggest that I may be able to just replace the socket myself. I've also asked him to look at this thread to consider your findings. I'll pop my Fun open to have a look. Hopefully as Kingwa stated it should only require the use of a screwdriver to replace the socket.


----------



## olor1n

Quote: 





les_garten said:


> I have a FUN, I'll look at it.
> 
> 
> EDIT:
> ...


 

 les, I think I've well and truly isolated the issue to the Fun's socket. I've tried a number of different 1/8" to 1/4" adapters with different cans. I've also tested other jacks on my macbook and ipods to rule out the plugs on the headphones themselves.


----------



## les_garten

Sounds like you've been thru it then.
   
  The Sparrow jack arrangement and the FUN are nothing alike or related to each other.  Night and Day difference.
   
  But this should really go to the FUN thread.  Poor Sparrow guys have to read it!
  
  Quote: 





olor1n said:


> les, I think I've well and truly isolated the issue to the Fun's socket. I've tried a number of different 1/8" to 1/4" adapters with different cans. I've also tested other jacks on my macbook and ipods to rule out the plugs on the headphones themselves.


----------



## olor1n

Sorry my bad. Thanks for your help anyway.


----------



## movi

i wonder if it's worth asking Kingwa to qoute with a Neutrik jack on the Sparrow at ordering time. i do feel like the jack quality is one of the aspects of the user's physical interaction with a headphone amp that that is very important. i expect to see a fairly high number of plug/unplug cycles.
   
  edit: hang on, on the website it lists Version A as having a Neutrik jack. i thought Neutrik jacks had the red tab thing and locked (like the ones on the FUN). but the photos of the Version A show a standard looking jack. i guess this is a lower model of Neutrik?


----------



## Epoch

Neutrik does make other styles of 1/4" jacks besides the large locking jack that you are familiar with.


----------



## les_garten

It's not really the jack as much as how it's mounted.
   
  Here's Neutrik's jack.  I think it should have the Nut securing it to the front panel.
   
http://www.neutrik.com/us/en/audio/204_256671/M-Line_productlist.aspx
   
  This would lock it into position.  I'm thinking that would make ALL plugs work perfectly with it.  Most work fine, but the jack does move a little with each cycle.  I need to shoot some PIX so you guys understand what I'm referring to.  I decided not to do it today because I thought the jack issue was done.


----------



## olor1n

I'll chime in here for the last time and again apologize for leading this thread off topic. I just wanted to highlight the fantastic customer support from Kingwa and Audio-GD that I've experienced. Their replies to my queries were answered promptly and although Kingwa was apologetic about the language barrier I had no issues in understanding what was being conveyed. I'm confident my issues will be resolved and I can once again enjoy the well documented qualities that many here endorse in their products.
   
  Edit: Ok that sounded like a PR statement lol! I just wanted to point out that the end result really is fantastic. I'm just devouring a new album at the moment and I can't seem to wipe this stupid grin off my face. It's all about the music folks. Enjoy it!


----------



## movi

Quote: 





les_garten said:


> It's not really the jack as much as how it's mounted.
> 
> Here's Neutrik's jack.  I think it should have the Nut securing it to the front panel.
> 
> ...


 

 i wonder if Kingwa would install one for me when i order my Sparrow. although i think you mentioned the front face plate would have to be changed??


----------



## les_garten

The front panel may only need the hole drilled out a little.  No big deal.
   
   
   
  Quote: 





movi said:


> i wonder if Kingwa would install one for me when i order my Sparrow. although i think you mentioned the front face plate would have to be changed??


----------



## anoobis

I tend to leave the adapter in the unit. Not the ideal solution but it may help.


----------



## anoobis

I suppose this post is redundant with the NFB series being released but I'll write it anyway. (Comparison with the NFB-11 would be interesting though I don't think I'd buy a direct replacement.) This is for the most part impressions, not a detailed or controlled A/B session.

 First off, impressions at power on, no comparisons, just the Sparrow (version B, AD1852, upgraded ALPS potentiometer). Setup: USB, Senn PX100 (what was to hand), Dave Brubeck, Time In.
 The instruments all sounded natural, by which I mean believable. Each instrument had a separate identity, none masked another. I suppose this attests to the tonal balance and soundstage/imaging of the Sparrow. There was a good weight to the bass and it wasn't flabby or overbearing. Cymbals (hi-hats?) were clear and the cut-off was good. My initial thought after reading that the WM8741 should be smoother was, 'why would I want it to be smoother, this isn't harsh?' This may be due to the PX100.

 The balance of instruments on some tracks sounded different to how I remember them (okay, technically that's a comparison but it's not in an analytical context, I'm not intending to use a reference). At the time I made notes about trumpets sounding recessed and violins not being particularly bright (the trumpets were probably on Katie Melua tracks, Crawling Up A Hill and On The Road Again, violins, can't remember). A few things could be happening here: i) infamous burn-in, I won't go there; ii) tonal balance is different; iii) more dynamics are being presented/that's really what's on the track. I don't know if the comment about dynamics even makes sense! I must listen again to these tracks.

 In short, instruments and tracks had their own identity, so I was happy and confident that the Sparrow is reasonably transparent. The PX100 are a little dark IMO, so the neutrality of the Sparrow remains to be heard. I did experience some listening fatigue at the end of the session which led me to think the WM8740 (original) may be a good choice for long sessions but the fatigue was no worse than I've had with anything else.

 Further comments are a mix of indirect comparisons (i.e. how I expect tracks to sound based on listening to them a lot with various equipment, e.g. Compass, CDPs, soundcards) and direct comparisons with lower league equipment [than the Sparrow]. Here, I don't intend to take the Sparrow in isolation, on its own merits. I added in the Senn HD497 too (clearer and punchier than PX100).
 People have said that the treble on the AD chip can be a bit too much. Ironically, some tracks to me seem less harsh, which I take to mean that the DAC is more accurate than I'm used to or the HP are being driven better. I've also heard some distortion on a track that I've never previously noticed. I believe it to really be on the track, so the Sparrow is more revealing. I threw Jools Holland's Honey Dripper (Parts 2,3) at the Sparrow. For those who don't know it (almost everyone I suspect!) this is a complex piece with a lot of percussion and trios of instruments playing counter melodies. I don't remember it sounding this good. The instruments are realistic and have better definition from each other. The ensemble sounds more cohesive than it ever has; somehow the timing of each instrument/phrase is better. Is this the soundstage? The imaging is wider, there's more detail and the balance of instruments is better. In short, IMO a more correct musical message is getting through. I think listening to something complex has emphasised this.

 I've also used the Beyer DT931 though not for critical listening. I don't think I learned anything about the Sparrow here, expect the change of sound signature again attests to its transparency, though it would be pretty bad if the signature wasn't different with these cans! Good clear dialogue for films with this combination.

 Comparisons with the Compass are unfortunately from memory. I believe the Sparrow to be more neutral/transparent than the Compass with Earth. Whether this is due to the chips or ACSS I can't say. I could be way off base here, since the Sparrow amp should be fine but I have an inkling the Compass amp may be a bit more powerful and maybe the noise floor is better? Take that with a mountain of salt.

 A final couple of comments. I do occasionally get pops when using the USB. This could well be the laptop. All I can say is that the Compass never did this (on a different laptop). Fortunately the new laptop has optical out, where all is fine. However, I'd be miffed at buying an external DAC to overcome the internal interference off a soundcard, only to find sound from the external device wasn't clean. Also, with high sensitivity, low impedance HP, the channel imbalance (on the upgraded potentiometer) is just about still there for low-medium volume listening.

 These are minor gripes about an overall impressive little device. At some point I will try the WM8741.

 Happy listening.


----------



## movi

i had it all figured out and then i found out about the NFB. so now i have to research again. sparrow vs. NFB would be very interesting...


----------



## Elanzer

I'd just like to post my funny combination: Sparrow WM8741 with Beyerdynamic Tesla T1. They sound ridiculously good on the Sparrow, and even though they are 600-Ohm, the volume still doesn't ever go past 11 o'clock. No shortage of bass, wide as hell soundstage (wider than any other headphone I've heard), and great seperation. So if you were ever curious about DT 880 600-Ohm on the Sparrow, I'd say go for it.  It might just be my ignorance / lack of access to better equipment to see the differences, but I see very little flaw in the representation of the T1s on the Sparrow.


----------



## mythless

Cool, I didn't know the sparrow had the power to drive the 600ohm beasts.


----------



## CEE TEE

Okay, since Audio-GD is "working on their backlog" as reported on the NFB-11 thread, *please tell me what you think*:
   

 Borrowed a first generation Benchmark DAC and really liked the "crisp", "linear" quality and resolution of the DAC as the HF-2 are not the highest resolving or the brightest phones.  Think it is a good pairing.  (I would like resolution in my DAC and Amp first, then to introduce amps later that "soften"...)
   

 Borrowed a fellow member's Sparrow "B" USB version with AD1852 purchased through the Pacific Valve and Electric Company.
   

 I listened with optical input from Apple G5 and was really impressed by the fairly "dry" sound (with some warmth in the the mids compared to the Benchmark) and found it amazing for the price.  (Listening side-by-side with the Benchmark, over 3 weeks.)
   

 The owner of the Benchmark (and a mastering engineer) also liked the Sparrow "B" enough to want an "A" version Sparrow for it's 24/192 support and USB input (which his Benchmark does not have).
   

 I told him I'd go to Audio-GD, buy the "A" version, and he could pay me back (if I liked it I would get one too).
   

 Kingwa said that  "[size=medium]Now we have the WM8805 module can replace the DIR8416 to support up to 192KHz and jitter only 50PS (DIR8416 is 200PS)."[/size]
  [size=medium]   [/size]

 I said I'd take it. 
   

 It arrived on Dec 19th and I gave it to my friend to check out first.  He said he couldn't use it at all, that there "must be an issue with the slew rate or something."
   

  I took it home and then did an A/B  between the "A" and the "B" versions.  What I found was that the "B" sounded great with the optical input and that the "A" was "slurred" or sounded like it had additional "reverb" especially with the USB in (the optical is better but still not as clean as the optical-in on the B).  My friend said the A version is "muddy".
   

 Bottom line, I would like a "B" with the AD1852 and I will only use the optical in- the USB is not as "dry" and not what I am looking for.
   
   
Audio-GD has not yet responded to a couple of emails over the past two weeks to either return or exchange the "A" with WM8741 so I have time to see what you think:
   
*Do you find a BIG difference between the optical and USB inputs with your units? *
   
*Does anyone else find the same thing with the "B" optical vs. USB and like the optical in much better?*
   
*Has anyone else done A/B with the "A" and the "B" with USB and Optical on each?*
   
_I had hopes for the "A" because even though on the site the WM chips are regarded as "more forgiving" and "warm", there was a note that the newer Sparrow "A" had a revised and more "neutral" implementation that was a "step above the AD1852"._


----------



## CEE TEE




----------



## haloxt

Can your friend run both sparrows through RMAA tests? Seems to me something may be faulty in the new sparrow, likely the wm8805.


----------



## CEE TEE

@haloxt, thanks for your help with Audio-GD questions.  (Not the first time you have thought about things for me!)
   
  I know that I can really like Audio-GD because my friend's "B" version sounds really nice through the optical input.
   
  Maybe a Bay Area Head-fier can help me run some RMAA tests...I can try to find someone.  Though, I'll have to find someone that can also measure the optical inputs as well as the USB.  _Is it true that a lot of PCs don't have optical outputs unless they have special soundcards?_
   
  Hopefully I won't still have the "A" version Sparrow when we're at the Bay Area Meet, but I could also borrow the "B" version again and bring them.
   
  Re: WM8805...  _Is the WM8805 utilized when using the optical-in? _ I do not like either the optical-in nor the USB-in on the "A" version.


----------



## haloxt

Some computers have built-in motherboard optical output, but not all. I was thinking maybe your friend would have the soundcard with all the inputs and outputs necessary to do all the RMAA tests. The WM8805 is used for all inputs. If the dir9001 and wm8805 modules you have are interchangeable (might not be between the two sparrow versions, not sure!), then I would swap them and see if you still have the issue you observe. If the problem is gone, then that would mean your wm8805 module is at fault. I would ask audio-gd if it is possible to swap first, I think the layout and voltages and stuff may be different between different  versions and construction periods for sparrows.


----------



## CEE TEE

VERY NICE.  *I'm looking forward to having my own "B" with AD1852 and DIR9001 !!!*
   
  WIth Audio-GD, I have found that I sometimes have to wait a little bit and after a week or two and a couple emails (this varies)- they seem to "catch up" on emails and are then very responsive.
   
  Just had a very nice quick string of emails with Kingwa and I am really happy that I can exchange "A" version for the "B" version I borrowed from another Head-Fier (it may be mostly a preference thing and not an issue with the unit because of this response from Kingwa)...
   
From Kingwa:
   
   
 [size=medium] Dear Christian,[/size]
 [size=medium] This version had two or more different than your version A.[/size]
 [size=medium] 1, the AD1852 brighter than WM8741.[/size]
 [size=medium] 2, The DIR9001 neutral but the WM8805 slight on warmer side.[/size]
 [size=medium] You want to confirm,[/size]
 [size=medium] 1, 192K or 96K?[/size]
 [size=medium] 2, USB or non USB?[/size]
 [size=medium] Kingwa[/size]
 [size=medium]  [/size]
 [size=medium]  [/size]
 [size=medium] *Kingwa was extremely courteous and flexible with me, even though I am starting out at the very bottom of his line-up.  I will be happy to check out his "reference products" at meets and I know that I prefer his "Neutral/Revealing/Bright" implementations.  *[/size]


----------



## haloxt

You say the difference is pretty significant though? When Kingwa says the wm8741 and wm8805 are slightly warm, he means SLIGHTLY. I would suggest swapping the modules if possible, to try to see if there really is a problem or it is just a sound preference on your part.
   
  Another possibility, only swap out the wm8805 for dir9001, and keep the slightly warm wm8741 because people generally regard it as better than ad1852.


----------



## CEE TEE

Thank you, but I found it <significantly> different and do not want to take anything from the "A" version.
   
  I'll be quite happy if I can match the _optical-in_ of my friend's "B" version.
   
  (And, opening his Sparrow would void the Pacific Valve Electric Company warranty which is where he purchased his from.)


----------



## KneelJung

I bought the B version back in October from Pacific Valve as well Cee Tee, and Haloxt did some thinking for me too. Anywy it's sort of coincidental that you bring up your friend because I believe i exchanged PM's with the same Head Fi'er a couple of days ago after seeing the Sparrow in his sig. Basically I just wanted his impressions and he responded with a story about lending it to a friend who compared it very favorably to the Benchmark DAC. Originally I had ordered an "A" but switched to the "B." Coming from the uDAC this was really a nice value upgrade for me. AC powered versus USB powered. I also grew to quickly like the more neutral presentation of the Sparrow versus the uDAC. My main cans, my only cans really are a pair of HF2's and they seem to have great synergy with the Sparrow. I use the USB to connect to my PC but would be interested in the optical option you are discussing, but it doesnt look like I have an optical out on my PC. Is there a work around for this problem or is it not that big a deal? Is the improvement something the average listener is going to notice or are the improvements minimal. The bigger picture though is probably those folks looking for a DAC / Amp combo, and from that standpoint my impression is this is a good buy; and your impression is, if I understand you correctly, is it sounded pretty much like a piece of gear that costs 5 1/2 times as much. I wonder how it compares to Kingwa's gear then that costs 5 1/2 times as much or if crazy carl had a valid point earlier in the thread?


----------



## CEE TEE

@KneelJung:  Yes, that was me.  *Caveat:*  My impressions here are with my  experience and only one year of really paying attention to audio.  My friends have always "owned" the audio realm and I was more in the visual one (photography/print). 
   
  What I found doing a fair amount of A/B over 2-3 weeks was that the Benchmark (Older, Non-USB with HPA-1, through optical-in) sounded very "linear" and "crisp"- bordering on "crunchy" (one of my issues with the Benchmark) but having good treble extension.  With the HF-2 (before I put the Jumbo pads on), I wanted "a bit" more resolution and "a tad" more treble.  The Benchmark did that for me and _also_ "filled-in" more small details throughout the frequency range, extending the low (without padding it) and sounding more "connected".  I think it works well with Grado HF-2 and bowls.  I planned on adding something in the chain later (probably an SS amp- they soften too) to help with some music, remove the "crunchiness", and/or "relax" the presentation a bit.  
   
  After deciding to try the Sparrow *one more time* *but with my* *optical out* from my Mac at home (Benchmarks are still pretty pricey), I found that I DID like the Sparrow "B" sound.  (Now I know I wasn't as impressed upon first listen because I do not like the USB-in nearly as much).
   
*Comparison of "B" version Sparrow with "A" version:  **Note:  *_*Kingwa did write that I should feel free to fully burn-in the "A" continuously for 10-15 days before reaching a final conclusion and not to worry about how long I took before deciding what I wanted to do (very, very nice of him).*_  So, without "A" being burned in for 150-200 hours per Kingwa's suggestion: The *optical* implementation of the "B" sounds to me "drier" or "clearer" than the "B" USB in the unit I borrowed and the "A" USB-in just sounds really "smeared" to me in comparison.   
   
  So, I am definitely mailing back the "A" tomorrow but look forward to having a "B"!  
   
*Comparison of "B" optical with Benchmark optical:*  What I found was that the "B" optical-in is very clear, maybe just a touch of warmth in the mids compared to the Benchmark but not as "crispy" or slightly "crunchy" sounding like the Benchmark.  I didn't miss the resolution of the Benchmark when listening to the "B" and just wanted to listen to the "B" even though I had (and can still borrow) the Benchmark for periods of time.  That was a great sign.  
   
  The "B" has clarity but is not harsh, nor does it sound too "rounded" off or too "smoothed out" to me.  And- _for the price I am flabbergasted_.  A easy decision for a piece of gear that I can be happy with while I take my time to listen to other gear and see if it makes [size=larger] differences to my HF-2.  [/size]
[size=larger] [/size]
[size=larger]I may be getting more finicky and may sound a lot like I am exaggerating, but I really noticed these differences.  I know I will continue to learn and hear more differences as I go along, too.[/size]
[size=larger] [/size]
[size=larger]I checked my findings with my musician/mastering friends without telling them what I thought I was hearing and they said the same things.  [/size]
[size=larger] [/size]
[size=larger]I have been learning/listening and then checking what I think I hear with what they think to test myself.  [/size]
[size=larger] [/size]
[size=larger]I'm also listening to my reference recordings on my friend's speaker system (D'Appolito array) to try and learn about frequency extension and what is in the recordings.[/size]
[size=larger] [/size]
[size=larger]SORRY FOR THE LONG REPLY![/size]
[size=larger] [/size]


----------



## haloxt

Since Kingwa wants you to burn it in continuously before deciding, I would do it. A lot of people have said audio-gd gear changes a lot with burn-in, 250-350 hours being when it finally starts to settle down. Another option to sending back your sparrow A, is to buy the dir9001 and ad1852 modules for your sparrow A. It may end up being cheaper or just about the same price as sending back your sparrow for another sparrow.
   
  And I hope you guys aren't offended I give advice like this , I just want to help people save money and find the gear they may like best.


----------



## CEE TEE

Thanks, haloxt...very appreciative, you have much more experience than many of us so not offended at all by any of your thoughts or advice!
   
  I did think about what Kingwa was saying (he was extremely nice and flexible about _return/exchange/try-it-out_ options) but I took that burn-in advice in conjunction with some of the other communication that the AD chip as well as the DIR module are both "less warm" than the WM chip and WM modules according to him.  So, that's not what I'm shooting for even if burned-in...
   
  (This way they can also listen to the unit and check it out.)


----------



## KneelJung

No apologies necessary Cee Tee I appreciated your detailed impressions and thought process. I've only been doing this headphone thing for about a year too. I bought some SR60's about this time last year and then shortly after that purchased a uDAC. Both purchases were based on stuff I read here. After those purchases I lurked for a while now and again and unfortunately the more I read the more I felt like upgrading. The Sparrow was the first piece of gear I upgraded other than phones. Initially all I wanted to do was upgrade the headphone out on my uDAC. So I was thinking a little tube amp like the Little Dot +1 or the Hifiman EF2A. I also had a gear crush on the Schiit Asgard. ultimatey though I decided I didnt want to fiddle with tubes or have multiple components. What I wanted was something with it's own power source like a dedicated amp has. Eventually my search ended up focusing on Audio GD stuff because of the reputation of other gear like the Zero, the Compass, the Fun etc.I was at one point thinking I wanted a Fun since it could be used as a DAC only that I could scale up to a dedicated amp (still had a gear crush on the Asgard).
   
  Anyway I ended up deciding on the Sparrow because it basically fit what my purchase hot buttons were. A good reputation amongst head fi'ers.not the Sparrow in particular but Audio GD stuff in general. It looked good and seemed well constructed, and it had it's own power source versus being powered via USB like the uDAC. I did some other research on DAC chips that didnt yield anything necessarily but it helped; and I think what cinched it was I asked the Pacific Valve salesman if he had heard both the A and B and he indicated that he had, and thought the B sounded better. His impression was that the A sounded smeared. That conversation was like a week before I actually bought. Anyway when I initially ordered I went with an A because of the 24/96 via USB, the reputation of the Woolson chip and because they had one in stock. Plus it cost more and was the premium version so it must be better, isnt that the conventional wisdom.I ended up changing my mind before they shipped it and got the B. because I had that nagging thought planted in my head by the Pacific salesman, glad I did.  Why am I boring you with all this you might be wondering?
   
  Well it's more for somebody that might happen along in search of a budget DAC / Amp combo, and looking for some impressions on the Sparrow. For those folks, two thoughts, It's pretty nice and offers a lot of bang for your buck.


----------



## CEE TEE

*@KneelJung-* thank you for the confirmation!  Much appreciated.  Just sent off the unit and am looking forward to getting my "B" too.
   
  I really think it is a good value and a nice unit.  I agree, sound signature preference and implementation are more important than just price alone for what we might prefer.
   
  If not for other Head-Fiers, I never would have heard of (nor heard) Audio-GD.
   
*Hopefully we've got LOTS more happy listening to do!!!   *





   
   
_OH!  Please let me know what you think when you have a chance to listen to your Sparrow with the Optical-in!  I'd like to know if yours also has a difference in sound and I will report if mine ends up sounding as good as my friend's after Kingwa's recommendation and around 200 hours on it..._


----------



## Currawong

I have the DIR9001/WM8741 combo, and I agree it totally nails it with the voicing.  It's fun even with the LCD-2s, which otherwise can sound somewhat boring out of many amps.


----------



## Blast

Would a Sparrow be better than an Auzentech Forte (pci-e sound card) for headphone/2 channel music, movies and gaming? I have Denon D2000's for headphones. Thank you.


----------



## dsolodov

I love the discrete sound of my Sparrow version A-USD with DIR8416. For the money, Sparrow is a great deal although you have to manage your expectation for 240$ device and not to expect a level of performance top of the line gear provides.
   
  My Sparrow outputs very noticeable hiss when there is not input. I listen to both Sparrow and Buffalo II + custom build AMB's M3 with Burr Brown OPA637BP for L/R channels and OPA627P for the ground channel run at +/-30V rails with Sigma 11. With AKG 701 the sound is quite a bit more detailed when it comes to intruments and voices. Also, at high volume M3 combo is dead silent when the music is not playing. Does anyone else hear hiss when cranking up volume control on Sparrow while music is not playing?
   
  On mechanical side, the S/PDIF connector is pretty tight compared to Neutrik feel. The rear panel bends pretty badly when I try to disconnect the cable.


----------



## dsolodov

Quote: 





blast said:


> Would a Sparrow be better than an Auzentech Forte (pci-e sound card) for headphone/2 channel music, movies and gaming? I have Denon D2000's for headphones. Thank you.


 


  Sparrow is better than an AUzentech. Sparrow is entry level Hi-Fi DAC/Head-amp for the money. The circuity on the Auzentech sound card may be fine, but it relies on very noisy switching PSU of a PC. Spend your comparable amount of $$$ on Sparrow. Or PM me, if you are interested in a custom build AMB M3 head amp.


----------



## les_garten

Quote: 





dsolodov said:


> , but it relies on very noisy switching PSU of a PC.


 

 Can you explain what the effect that has on a Digital Bitstream?
   
  Please back up your statements with references.


----------



## dsolodov

Why does Digital Bitstream pop-up in the context of analog output head-amps?
   
  Anyhow, no impact on digital is present. The analog audio output is affected, and that's when the PSU matters. A good audio power supply is typically linear and has noise measured is MICRO volts (http://www.amb.org/audio/sigma11/, see Technical highlights). Sigma 11 measures 12uV. As for ATX switching PSU noise specifications, see the section 3.2.6 of http://www.formfactors.org/developer%5Cspecs%5CATX12V_1_3dg.pdf. Note the noise figures are in MILLI volts... Perhaps onboard voltage regulators help, but they are have noise as well (for example, http://www.national.com/ds/LM/LM340.pdf shows typical 75uV at 12V).


----------



## les_garten

Quote: 





dsolodov said:


> Why does Digital Bitstream pop-up in the context of analog output head-amps?
> 
> Anyhow, no impact on digital is present. The analog audio output is affected, and that's when the PSU matters. A good audio power supply is typically linear and has noise measured is MICRO volts (http://www.amb.org/audio/sigma11/, see Technical highlights). Sigma 11 measures 12uV. As for ATX switching PSU noise specifications, see the section 3.2.6 of http://www.formfactors.org/developer%5Cspecs%5CATX12V_1_3dg.pdf. Note the noise figures are in MILLI volts... Perhaps onboard voltage regulators help, but they are have noise as well (for example, http://www.national.com/ds/LM/LM340.pdf shows typical 75uV at 12V).


 


  Well, I'll explain it to you.
   
  You hook up a Sparrow to the computer via, COAX, Optical, or USB.
   
  The "Music" is stored digitally on the Hard drive.  Foobar "plays" the music from a digital format.
   
  The digital Bitstream goes straight out the Sound Card in a digital bitstream to the DAC on the Sparrow.  The SC does not do any D-A conversion.  The data starts out and remains digital till it has gone thru the DAC on the Sparrow.
   
  You asserted that the PS in the PC would make a lot of switching noise and that would be detrimental to using the Sparrow out of the PC.
   
  I'm saying show me, with some evidence.  Show me eveidnece how this massively noisy PC environment is tearing up the Digital signal coming out? 
   
  I'm piping it to a REF 1 or to a FUN,or a Sparrow and it sounds great for some reason.
   
  You are in a DAC/Head amp thread.  Not an Analog head amp thread.


----------



## CEE TEE

Reporting in...just received the B version with USB, 96K, DIR9001 module, & AD1852 chip as a return/exchange for the A version.
   
  I really enjoy the B with the optical input.  I only requested the USB version so it would more closely match the one I borrowed for about 3 weeks.
   
  I'm very happy. Could not listen to the A version at all but the humble B is just great with my HF-2's and I couldn't be happier at $160.
   





   
   
*EDIT:*  _Update...is a bit brighter than the borrowed (and fully burned-in) B I tried.  Some sibilance- I will let this burn in for 200 hours before seeing where it settles.  Will compare with friend's Sparrow B later too._


----------



## dsolodov

If you re-read carefully, really carefully the statement "The circuity on the Auzentech sound card may be fine, but it relies on very noisy switching PSU of a PC." and think about the statement in the context of the original posting #661...
   
*"You asserted that the PS in the PC would make a lot of switching noise and that would be detrimental to using the Sparrow out of the *
*PC."*
  Nope, I did not assert that. Again, the statement was "The circuity on the Auzentech sound card may be fine, but it relies on very noisy switching PSU of a PC."... for analog output. Has nothing to do with Sparrow.
   
  Again, noisy PSU affects analog output from a PC audio card.
   
  I done wasting my bits on this.


----------



## les_garten

Quote: 





dsolodov said:


> If you re-read carefully, really carefully the statement "The circuity on the Auzentech sound card may be fine, but it relies on very noisy switching PSU of a PC." and think about the statement in the context of the original posting #661...
> 
> *"You asserted that the PS in the PC would make a lot of switching noise and that would be detrimental to using the Sparrow out of the *
> *PC."*
> ...


 
   
   
  Ahhh, except the Sparrow only takes Digital input, get it now?
   
  The PC PS has crap to do with this.


----------



## les_garten

Quote: 





dsolodov said:


> If you re-read carefully, really carefully the statement "The circuity on the Auzentech sound card may be fine, but it relies on very noisy switching PSU of a PC." and think about the statement in the context of the original posting #661...
> 
> *"You asserted that the PS in the PC would make a lot of switching noise and that would be detrimental to using the Sparrow out of the *
> *PC."*
> ...


 
   
  .


----------



## haloxt

CEE TEE, the ad1852 has a jumper on it, switch the jumper to the other pair of pins for a little rolled off highs. The highs will become less harsh with time, but if still too harsh, I would recommend switching the jumper.


----------



## CEE TEE

Quote:


haloxt said:


> CEE TEE, the ad1852 has a jumper on it, switch the jumper to the other pair of pins for a little rolled off highs. The highs will become less harsh with time, but if still too harsh, I would recommend switching the jumper.


 
   
  Wow, really?  That's all great news...I have an option to try if the highs don't mellow out just a bit!!
   
  Because Kingwa (Qing Hua, BTW) recommends around 150-200 hours of burn-in, I will do that and then if they haven't settled a little I will try the jumpers.
   
*Thank you haloxt! *
   
  (So far, it is promising and I can't wait to listen some more this weekend...)


----------



## Philimon

Quote: 





cee tee said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> haloxt said:
> ...


 

 I too thank you haloxt.
   
  CEETEE, in regards to modding your Sparrow, if you want to do a side by side comparison instead of by memory, then you can always do so at the meet with mine. Or if you just want to hear a Sparrow AD1852 w/ lots of burn-in then you can do that as well. BTW - mine does not have USB if that matters. I use my Sparrow for headphones, speakers, music, movies, burning-in headphones, so it has been broken-in plenty.


----------



## CEE TEE

Hi Philimon!
   
  You braved snowy mountain passes to attend the Bay Area Meet and I salute you!  Sorry it took so long to make it out but I do hope you were able to listen to what you most wanted to check out...
   
  I just read your post though and also didn't have much time to listen at the meet but luckily I am very happy with my Sparrow B (optical) for now...some customs are probably my next upgrade and then we'll see.
   
  So you like your Sparrow too, it seems...any change of heart after listening to things at the meet?
   
  I still think that for $160, the Audio-GD Sparrow B is just amazing...
   
  C


----------



## Philimon

I was expecting to be infected with upgraditis from listening to the other supposedly more ortho-capable amps, but I just never really could hear a difference on the Lyr or EF5 vs Sparrow (the only two amps I really spent much time with HE-4). Some serious meet conditions though (100+ members! Way beyond expectations CEETEE... it was great! Soooo much gear.) I may just use the Sparrow for a while and just equalize to tone down the upper frequencies until I can decide on a more powerful amp. I've heard tale though of people having great synergy with less powerful amps and their HIFIMAN orthos though. So I am not too worried about having to buy something else at the moment.


----------



## kdoot

Hi all. Newbie here.
   
  I am about to take delivery of a new Sparrow A-BNC with DIR9001 receiver... and I'm a bit worried I may have chosen poorly. My headphones are Grado SR325i... only 32ohm and pretty sensitive. Is the Sparrow going to overpower my phones?


----------



## EraserXIV

No, I use my Sparrow with my IEMs and it just makes the sound quality better. Everything sounds cleaner, smoother, and more natural.


----------



## kdoot

Eraser - thanks, that's a relief. I also have a pair of Etymotic ER4P which sadly I've broken, but contemplating getting them repaired and maybe even converted to ER4S. Good to know the Sparrow can work even with sensitive phones.
   
  Carl - I read this whole thread before posting. If this wasn't just my second post I'd probably be quite rude in my reply to you. For now I'll just say that you're clearly in the wrong hobby. You should find something else to do.


----------



## kdoot

Well it's here. I got the BNC version, but the socket on the back and the switch on the front still have "USB" silk-screened on them. 
   
  Initial sonic impressions are that it's very clean, detailed, dynamic, with good extension at both ends. It does respond to a high quality BNC input a la my Audiophilleo 2 USB/SPDIF interface - it's noticeably more open and detailed compared to plastic toslink straight from the Mac. With next-to-no burn in time I don't want to come to any firm conclusions, but at this early stage I'm finding the mid-bass to be a bit thick. Not sure whether that's the Sparrow or my phones.
   
  It's also bloody powerful. The volume knob starts at 7 o'clock and I can't get past about 9 on most modern recordings without fearing for my ears. This is with Grado SR325's. The positive side of this is that I'll be able to explore harder-to-drive phones too.
   
  Compared to the headphone socket on the MacBook Pro and an iPhone 3GS... well let's just say I'm very impressed with the quality of what people get by default but I feel there's definitely room for products like the Sparrow. I'll try some blind testing when I can to see how reliably I can pick the difference


----------



## Currawong

That's not so much power as simply high gain settings. However, it does (going by spec) have quite a bit of power.  I'd agree it is very slightly on the warmer/thicker side of things.


----------



## CEE TEE

@ kdoot:  The "A" was *very* warm to me.
   
  I need to buy another "B" so I will feel comfortable loaning my DAC1 out...


----------



## Battou62

Just received my sparrow from a member here. Looking to keep this thread going with peoples thoughts.


----------



## matrix200

I just bought the A-BNC version to replace my Zero DAC which I had for a few years now.
  Here are some thoughts :
  1. Drives my Etymotics ER-4P just great 
  2. I am not 100% pleased with how it works with my Sennheiser HD-600s . Somehow it feels like the power is lacking and I had to turn the volume knob all the way to get the volume I like.
  To be frank I do the same with Zero DAC so maybe its just my hearing 
  I am feeding it with spdif optical out from my creative sb x-fi.
  The main audio volume on the creative is about half way. Wave out is set to the max. 
  Could it be due to insufficient burn in or is Sparrow really not enough to drive HD600?


----------



## muad

i run an xfi to my audio-gd fun. I get the best results by using wasapi out from foobar 2000. This effectively sets my volume to full amongst other things. I set the volume through my dac to maintain quality. This wont work though if you like to control the volume in windows/osx/or whatever.


----------



## matrix200

Well I dont mind using the volume knob on the dac.
  I am just kind of afraid to use it too much so as not to cause any damage to the device.
  Also I use winamp with kernel streaming.
  Anyway my question is really about suggested volume for hd 600's and required burn in.
  Edwin suggested 300 hour total burn in time on it (100 hour done by them) so I am asking what is your experience with burn in with this dac.


----------



## EraserXIV

There isn't a set standard... but I think you're "supposed" to set the volume on your computer to 100% and then use your amp only to control the volume.


----------



## DemonicLemming

Yep...as I understand it, all volume control done via computer is digital volume regulation, which does nasty things to music.  Adjusting the volume through the amp or DAC using a physical pot is using analog attenuation to increase or decrease the volume, which doesn't distort things the way digital regulation does.
  
  Quote: 





eraserxiv said:


> There isn't a set standard... but I think you're "supposed" to set the volume on your computer to 100% and then use your amp only to control the volume.


----------



## matrix200

Ok then, thanks for your suggestions
  I will try to set the windows volume at 100% and see how it goes.
  One more question though :
 The dac seems to be getting pretty warm to touch , should I be worried?


----------



## EraserXIV

Don't worry it's supposed to be getting warm, it's a Class-A amp. Also, some say that you're supposed to let it warm up first for performance to be the best.


----------



## KneelJung

Quote: 





matrix200 said:


> 2. I am not 100% pleased with how it works with my Sennheiser HD-600s . Somehow it feels like the power is lacking and I had to turn the volume knob all the way to get the volume I like.


 

 I had that problem when I first got mine, and it was suggested to me that my headphone jack might not be fully inserted, and sure enough that was the problem.


----------



## matrix200

Actually I had a similar problem with my ER-4Ps when I first got the amp.
  The sound coming out was distorted and surely it was the plug issue (The 1/4 to 1/8 adapter I took with me on my trip to China was not the best and the connection was loose).
  This is not the case here as I use a pretty good cable with a good 1/4 plug.
  What I did for now is followed EraserXIV's advice and turned windows master and wave volume up to the top and now using the volume knob on the amp.
  It is now set about 10:30 and the volume is reasonably loud.
  If I turn the volume knob all the way it is deafening which is good 
  The bass is a little too smooth , but I guess the amp still needs burning in before I can fully decide how it behaves with respect to HD600's
  These are 300 Ohm after all.


----------



## chrislangley4253

guys I'm incredibly confused... Please help me out. Right now my source is my laptop with no optical out.. (Asus U30jc-a1).. Can I use the sparrow with my laptop? and how would I use it? What cable would I need? I thought I could use usb line in. The guy I bought it from said that the usb in's are "shoddy" and that it doesn't have a usb line in.. from what I see there is no way it doesn't have a usb- in.


----------



## chrislangley4253

agh! it looks like he probably has the bnc version.. in which case I can't use the amp right?


----------



## KneelJung

Here is a possible solution to your problem, Turtle Beach makes a USB to digital audio adapter that should provide a work around for your issue.


----------



## chrislangley4253

Quote: 





kneeljung said:


> Here is a possible solution to your problem, Turtle Beach makes a USB to digital audio adapter that should provide a work around for your issue.


 


  ehhh, I appreciate it. I think i'm just gonna pick up an Audinst HUD-MX1


----------



## chrislangley4253

ended up picking up a version A sparrow with usb after all!


----------



## chrislangley4253

anybody have any experience with using the sparrow as a dedicated dac? The builder claims it works just fine on the website
  [size=small]*Advice for*[/size]*[size=small] using Sparrow as a dedicated DAC and DAC + preamp:[/size]
 [size=x-small]    [/size]*[size=x-small]The Sparrow can have an adapter plugged into the headphone output socket, turn the volume to proper position (volume placed around 10:00 to 14:00) which has proper output level, then Sparrow can output as a DAC or a DAC+preamp.
     Don't worry that the multiple output stages might degrade the sound quality, most DACs or CDPs also have multiple output stages but some of them sound excellent.[/size]
   

 What kind of an adapter is he talking about there?


----------



## KneelJung

Quote: 





chrislangley4253 said:


> anybody have any experience with using the sparrow as a dedicated dac? The builder claims it works just fine on the website
> [size=small]*Advice for*[/size]*[size=small] using Sparrow as a dedicated DAC and DAC + preamp:[/size]
> [size=x-small]    [/size]*[size=x-small]The Sparrow can have an adapter plugged into the headphone output socket, turn the volume to proper position (volume placed around 10:00 to 14:00) which has proper output level, then Sparrow can output as a DAC or a DAC+preamp.
> Don't worry that the multiple output stages might degrade the sound quality, most DACs or CDPs also have multiple output stages but some of them sound excellent.[/size]
> ...


----------



## chrislangley4253

Quote: 





kneeljung said:


>


 

 ah! TYVM. That makes sense!


----------



## chrislangley4253

Quote: 





cee tee said:


> Reporting in...just received the B version with USB, 96K, DIR9001 module, & AD1852 chip as a return/exchange for the A version.
> 
> I really enjoy the B with the optical input.  I only requested the USB version so it would more closely match the one I borrowed for about 3 weeks.
> 
> ...


 
  Notice any more changes CEE TEE and have you compared the USB to the optical? I remember you stating that you though the optical was better on your friends. How about yours?
   
  Chris


----------



## CEE TEE

My USB/Optical implementation ended up seeming very close in performance. The difference I thought I noticed in the other B version was a little bit of "grain" or a tiny bit of a "rougher quality" to USB over Optical.
   
  The difference between the A version and the B version was far greater than the difference between USB/optical implementation.  The A version is so warm that it might be good for clinical or dry cans but for Grados and my taste I only like the B config. noted above. 
   
  I don't know how my B is doing now because I gave it to my good friend that bought my B-stock HF-2.
   
  (He has given me other electronics equip. so I set him up.)
   
  Still think the "B" is good and would like another so I have something that takes USB and I could then lend out the Benchmark if I wanted to...


----------



## chrislangley4253

Quote: 





cee tee said:


> My USB/Optical implementation ended up seeming very close in performance. The difference I thought I noticed in the other B version was a little bit of "grain" or a tiny bit of a "rougher quality" to USB over Optical.
> 
> The difference between the A version and the B version was far greater than the difference between USB/optical implementation.  The A version is so warm that it might be good for clinical or dry cans but for Grados and my taste I only like the B config. noted above.
> 
> ...


 


  ah, good to hear there isn't *that* much of a difference. I was a bit worried, seeing as I can only use the USB for a long time. I actually wound up buying a sparrow that I will be able to use to simulate the same as your B version.. With the 1852 and the DIR9001


----------



## CEE TEE

^Really???  You are going to swap stuff out and turn it into a "B"?  Cool.
   
  Would dig hearing your impressions between the two!  Will you retain the ability to swap or will it be a solder job?
   
  (If soldering, I wouldn't worry- there would not be a reason that I would want it as an "A" version for any reason, personally...)
   
  HF-2 and RS-2i liked the unit.
   
  High-end guys don't like the Sparrow or the Audio-gd gear.  
   
  Maybe with the super-high resolving ability of the UE RM I wouldn't like the Sparrow but with RS2i and HF-2 I dug it and will probably get another.
   
  I hear that Eddie Current amps can do wonderful things with higher-end Grados but the $$$ is very high.
   
  To me, Sparrow "B" + RS2i used = ~$500 & tons of fun sound.  Tune with pads.
   
  Or Sparrow "B" with mods on lower Grados = tons of fun too.


----------



## chrislangley4253

Quote: 





cee tee said:


> ^Really???  You are going to swap stuff out and turn it into a "B"?  Cool.
> 
> Would dig hearing your impressions between the two!  Will you retain the ability to swap or will it be a solder job?
> 
> ...


 


  it is actually an A version.. an older one that came with the dir9001 and the ad1852. I'll also be getting a wm8740 with it. That is what you preferred version was right? the older Dir9001 and the older ad1852? I can upgrade to a wm8741, but That would require a small solder job. nothing that wouldn't be reversible though. I'm not sure if I will ever mess with it. Maybe if I hear some praise. I should check out the fun thread. Anyone have a direct link?'
   
  -edit-  I realize your preferred version was you friends older B. But this will be the same chips. Should be similar. I would think.. Unless some of the "upgrades" affect it. I wouldn't think so. Then again, I bet you never expected to prefer the B version at all.


----------



## CEE TEE

^Right- tried friend's "B".  Dug it.
   
  Did buy a suped-up "A" with the wm8740 in it.  Thought there was "something wrong with the A" because it was too "warm/reverby".
   
  Returned "A".  Bought my own "B".
   
  Totally liked "B" but gave "B" to a great friend because his HF-2 needed it.
   
  Bought Benchmark (non-USB) from different great friend.
   
  Would still like to have a "B" with USB on hand (dir9001 and the ad1852)...for its price, versatility, and good sound.
   
  Hope you like yours!


----------



## KneelJung

Quote: 





chrislangley4253 said:


> it is actually an A version.. an older one that came with the dir9001 and the ad1852. I'll also be getting a wm8740 with it. That is what you preferred version was right? the older Dir9001 and the older ad1852? I can upgrade to a wm8741, but That would require a small solder job. nothing that wouldn't be reversible though. I'm not sure if I will ever mess with it. Maybe if I hear some praise. I should check out the fun thread. Anyone have a direct link?'
> 
> -edit-  I realize your preferred version was you friends older B. But this will be the same chips. Should be similar. I would think.. Unless some of the "upgrades" affect it. I wouldn't think so. Then again, I bet you never expected to prefer the B version at all.


 


 Chris that's awesome, I think you actually got the B with upgrades, better USB, better plug etc. It's been a while since I actually looked at the differences other than the chip. I went with the B because of something the Pacific Valve rep said. His perception was the A with the woolfson chip sounded smeared and that the B was actually the best sounding Audio GD DAC he had heard since such and such a model. Anyway good deal congratulations.


----------



## EraserXIV

kneeljung said:


> Chris that's awesome, I think you actually got the B with upgrades, better USB, better plug etc. It's been a while since I actually looked at the differences other than the chip. I went with the B because of something the Pacific Valve rep said. His perception was the A with the woolfson chip sounded smeared and that the B was actually the best sounding Audio GD DAC he had heard since such and such a model. Anyway good deal congratulations.


 


  It was my Sparrow that he purchased, and it is actually a 1st generation A version. It was before the WM8741 was introduced and the default chip was the AD1852 with the DIR9001 (similar to how they still offer the AD1852 with the FUN). It is an A version because the components are higher end than the ones used in the B version. It uses the EVOX caps, DALE-Vishay resistors, and NOVER caps, as stated on the website. It's basically the A version you can purchase today, but with the AD1852 that is swappable with an WM8740 that I purchased on my own shortly after.
   
  Anyways, it's a great little device and I may purchase one down the road as a bed-side rig. It packs quite a punch and I never find myself turning the dial past 12 o'clock with my HD650, despite the fact that my friends say I like to listen at abnormally high levels.


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## chrislangley4253

huzzah! I win . Thanks so much Eraser.


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## CEE TEE

agreed.
   
  Quote: 





kneeljung said:


> I went with the B because of something the Pacific Valve rep said. His perception was the A with the woolfson chip sounded smeared and that the B was actually the best sounding Audio GD DAC he had heard since such and such a model.


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## uzi

Man, you guys have me torn.  I'm about to receive the HD650 (replacing the HD595) and have been trying to figure out what budget-conscious way I wanted to drive 'em (it's the ART HeadAmp4 in the meantime).  I've pretty much settled in on the Sparrow (or FUN or NFB-12), but am still debating between A or B.  I'll mostly be using them via USB on my laptop.
   
  I'm seeing CEE TEE and KneelJung giving the B lots of love, but I'm also noting that you guys are HF2-slinging Gradoheads.  I've got an SR60 (and my pick up an SR225i in the not-too-distant future), so I'm familiar with the Grado sound.  For argument's sake, do you guys think it may be the case that the B is a better complement to Grados, but that the A may groove better in other cases?  From
   
  http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/Headphoneamp/Sparrow/SparrowEN.htm
   
  it's suggested that the AD1852 sounds more dynamic and the WM8741 more neutral.  I'd love to hear peoples' opinions of both the A and the B with the HD650... especially with the DACs du jour.
   
  Are the components on the A that much nicer than on the B?  Would it be worth getting the A and ordering the DA1852 module?  How much work is it to switch the DAC modules?  Thanks!


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## chrislangley4253

Quote: 





uzi said:


> Man, you guys have me torn.  I'm about to receive the HD650 (replacing the HD595) and have been trying to figure out what budget-conscious way I wanted to drive 'em (it's the ART HeadAmp4 in the meantime).  I've pretty much settled in on the Sparrow (or FUN or NFB-12), but am still debating between A or B.  I'll mostly be using them via USB on my laptop.
> 
> I'm seeing CEE TEE and KneelJung giving the B lots of love, but I'm also noting that you guys are HF2-slinging Gradoheads.  I've got an SR60 (and my pick up an SR225i in the not-too-distant future), so I'm familiar with the Grado sound.  For argument's sake, do you guys think it may be the case that the B is a better complement to Grados, but that the A may groove better in other cases?  From
> 
> ...


 
   
   
   

  alright, You have it mixed up a bit. Let me break it down for you, and then I'll tell you what I have. 
   
  Firstly, there is no difference in DAC portion of the A's and B's that are currently being produced. The dac in the current ones is known to be more dynamic/warm than the older one. But, the man that designs them obviously feels like it is an upgrade from the older. We just have some people that think otherwise, and I have the older DAC myself, and I really like it. Haven't heard the newer one and I'm not sure if my relatively noobish ears would even hear a difference. 
   
  Secondly, you have the DA chips mixed up.. The ad1852 is more neutral, with some people claiming that it brings out the highs a bit. I just think it presents a lot of detail on the upper end. I've never had my grados feel shrill coming out of any source ever, including this chip. However, I do find the highs shrill on my fostex's.. I think that is just a personal thing though. I've yet to try the 8740 with the fostex's. Which brings me to the WM8740 (older chip that is no longer offered to my knowledge, although it might be with the B version still. I'm not positive in all honesty. This chip is supposed to be warmer and more musical, I haven't given it much of a shot because I feel a source should be as transparent and neutral as possible. The WM8741 is supposed to follow in it's footsteps in being warmer and more musical from what I've read, however i'm sure its still rather neutral. Everything audio-gd makes is relatively neutral, it should all be minor differences. However, the most neutral setup as far as sparrows go would be the older chip and the ad1852 w/ it maybe bringing out the highs a notch. The most dynamic and musical pairing would be the current A version, but I'm sure it still stays very close to neutrality. There are some people on here that really didn't care for the sound and much preferred the older models, but its hardly a fact.. some people could very well prefer the current A version. 
   
  The differences between the current A and B versions could only be noticed on a very revealing system with some very revealing headphones, and even then it would be kind of difficult. The main upgrade is a nicer volume pot and some nicer caps. Once again, audio-gd only puts out fine products... So, take it how you will. 
   
  Personally I'm running an older A version with the older dac and the ad1852 with my woodied grados and other headphones as well. I have literally no complaints about the sound.. The only gripes I have would be that the gain is a bit high, I never turn the nob very much and I wish I could get it quieter than what I can sometimes. Also, there is no way to use the dac separately and upgrade the amp. I don't really ever plan on doing this myself, so its not a big deal. 
   
  Hope I answered your questions
   
  Chris


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## Currawong

Just FYI, the "sound" of the Wolfson DACs is in the way Kingwa implements them. He could make them sharper-sounding if he wanted.  I think part of it is that, with the PCM1704 becoming un-available, the closest way he could duplicate the performance of them was with the WM8741 using particular filter settings. It is more relevant in the higher-end Audio-gd gear though where the differences in DACs, filters and overall design are more apparent.


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## chrislangley4253

Quote: 





currawong said:


> Just FYI, the "sound" of the Wolfson DACs is in the way Kingwa implements them. He could make them sharper-sounding if he wanted.  I think part of it is that, with the PCM1704 becoming un-available, the closest way he could duplicate the performance of them was with the WM8741 using particular filter settings. It is more relevant in the higher-end Audio-gd gear though where the differences in DACs, filters and overall design are more apparent.


 


  Thank you for that info. I didn't know that 
   
  Also, to the guy that was trying to decide between the sparrow, fun or nfb12.. I think the nfb is probably a step up, but it is certainly smoother from what I read. Only commenting on what I've gathered so far. I'd maybe try to get my hands on an nfb 11 myself, seeing as I don't think a smooth sound signature is my cup of tea, maybe late at night, but generally I want my music to be the opposite of smooth. I don't really think you can go wrong with any of his products. the fun is better than the sparrow if you need the additional features, the nfb's are a bit more fancy on the inside and from what I've read nicer.
   
  TLR I'd get an older A version sparrow with a ad1852 or a nfb-11 personally. I'd love to hear a 12, but I really feel it wouldn't satisfy me overall.  "The NFB-11 has quite high fidelity, its sound signature is absolutely revealing, neutral and faithful and very detailed. It can show how good or how bad a recording is. If you are afraid of flaws being revealed in the music files, other gears like those applying WM8741 will be better." I think the nfb 11 will make better recordings sound better and worse recordings sound worse, which is what a good source should do in my opinion. I'm kinda wishing I had one to listen to now.


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## uzi

Quote: 





chrislangley4253 said:


> alright, You have it mixed up a bit. Let me break it down for you, and then I'll tell you what I have.


 
   
  Always happy to get an education... unfortunately, all I've got to go on is what's in these forums and the Audio-gd website... and the information I was quoting was from their website.  If I'm mixed up, it's because of their website. 
   
  The problem with the NFB-11 for me is the lack of USB, which I'd really like to have.  According to
   
  http://www.audio-gd.com/Agents.htm
   
  the NFB-12 would have the advantage over the Sparrow of having some of the higher-grade components for cheaper, DAC outputs and a gain switch... the Sparrow has a slightly smaller size and replaceable DIR and DA modules.
   
  Anyways, thanks for the info... I've got some thinking to do...


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## chrislangley4253

Quote: 





uzi said:


> Always happy to get an education... unfortunately, all I've got to go on is what's in these forums and the Audio-gd website... and the information I was quoting was from their website.  If I'm mixed up, it's because of their website.
> 
> The problem with the NFB-11 for me is the lack of USB, which I'd really like to have.  According to
> 
> ...


 
  oh crap, you are right... the 11 is non usb... :-/ I wonder if this is only currently or if their are older ones that are Usb... I think there were some complaints on the sound of the usb on the nfb11. USB is currently what I'm using, but I'm planning to build a computer with an optical out soon. Perhaps I'll get to hear one then.
   
  *also, the modules aren't replaceable on the newer models without a bit of minimal soldering, I'm pretty sure. At least, I know its the case with the wm8741.. I'm not sure about the newer B model with the ad1852, you might still be able to throw in the wm8740 w/o soldering.. I know that if you go from one of the older ones and wish to add a wm8741 you have to solder a lead wire from the power supply over to the da chip.
   
  I think the nfb 12 is likely to be very high quality, and probably sound better than the sparrow, however the sound description turns me off a bit. I'd have to hear one before I bought it for sure.


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## KneelJung

Quote: 





uzi said:


> Man, you guys have me torn.  I'm about to receive the HD650 (replacing the HD595) and have been trying to figure out what budget-conscious way I wanted to drive 'em (it's the ART HeadAmp4 in the meantime).  I've pretty much settled in on the Sparrow (or FUN or NFB-12), but am still debating between A or B.  I'll mostly be using them via USB on my laptop.
> 
> I'm seeing CEE TEE and KneelJung giving the B lots of love, but I'm also noting that you guys are HF2-slinging Gradoheads.  I've got an SR60 (and my pick up an SR225i in the not-too-distant future), so I'm familiar with the Grado sound.  For argument's sake, do you guys think it may be the case that the B is a better complement to Grados, but that the A may groove better in other cases?  From
> 
> ...


 
   

 Uzi I dont know that I can help you much, it was sort of a lark how I ended up with the B rather than the A. Audio GD sort of adds to the confusion by constantly adding so many new products. That Kingwa guy is some sort of mad scientist of sorts it seems. I dont think you can really go wrong with any of their products. I went with an Audio GD product because of their reputation with products that had preceeded the Sparrow like the Zero, the Compass, the Fun, etc. If your looking for something with a small footprint the Sparrow fits the bill. I like mine a lot. I have no way of knowing though how my rig compares to any number of perfectly good and potentially better set ups in the same price range. If you sort have it narrowed down you can email Kingwa who will more than likely respond to your questions. At least he was doing that when I bought mine back in October, and I ultimately got mine at Pacific Valve.


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## chrislangley4253

Yeah, Kingwa might go ahead and push you one way or the other. No one should know the amps better than him and he seems like a very nice guy.


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## haloxt

My thoughts on the ad1852 sparrow is that the high frequency performance stands out. Clean neutral macrodetail, but decay, soundstage, and timbre are average, on the lean side. Wm8741 sparrow has quite good sound quality in almost all aspects and altogether sounds neutral yet almost "alive" with the richness of microdetail, but doesn't have exceptional high frequencies extension or faithful harmonics. I believe the sparrow probably doesn't utilize wm8741's full potential, so take my observation as on the wm8741 sparrow, not the wm8741 alone.
   
  Kingwa has said there's not a significant difference between A and B when the same dac chip is used. Heh heh if you want the wm8741 for a lower price you can try to ask them to put it in the sparrow B.


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## kdoot

Tonight I got brave enough to apply my cheap, horrible soldering iron and shaky hands to my Sparrow. Swapped the DIR9001 receiver for the WM8805 one. So this is now a standard current-model version A with BNC.
   
  Where previously I was finding the Sparrow disappointingly warm with a lack of detail and completely unconvincing soundstage - this even with my Grado SR325 cans - the 8805 receiver has transformed it. The whole thing sounds faster, detail is improved and the soundstage is way more believable. An interesting side benefit is that with support for 176.4 and 192kHz input via BNC I can take advantage of software upsampling and kick the WM8741 DAC chip into a slightly brighter and cleaner filter mode (at least that's how I understand it works in this implementation... corrections welcome).
   
  I am using a very good async USB/SPDIF converter, so it's possible that the DIR9001 might be a better match for more regular sources, but for me the verdict is clear. These Wolfson chips are working brilliantly together.


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## kdoot

Nuts: the WM8805 as implemented in the Sparrow seems to NOT support 176.4kHz sample rate. I thought I had it playing last night, but now it's just giving me digital noise and all my web searching leads me to the conclusion that 176.4kHz requires software mode control of the 8805. I think AudioGD has gone with just hardware control in the Sparrow module.


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## dsolodov

Folks:
   
What DC offset do you measure on the headphone jacks? I measured yesterday on the G, R, and L labeled contacts on the headphone jack board using Fluke 87 V DMM. The unit was idle for ~10 min before measuring. The values are
[size=11pt]  G & R: 2.1mVDC[/size]
[size=11pt]  G & L: 6.8mVDC[/size]
   
[size=11pt]The offset on the left channel is higher then 5mVDC I would be comforable with. The values shouldbe as close to zero as possible, as the voltage causes the headphone coil to be shifted in 'neural' position affecting reproduction.[/size]
   
[size=11pt]The unit I have has slighly higher volume in right channel. The difference is annoying. I tested the same source with AMB M3, and M3 plays both R and L channels with the same volume even after swapping RCA cables. Reached out to Kingwa for resolution. Let's see what happens.[/size]


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## zzffnn

^ The volume imbalance will depend on gain setting and sensitivity of earphones/headphones being used. Does your M3 have the same gain value as your Sparrow?
   
  My stock Sparrow version B produces equal volume in both channels once I pass 7-7:30 o'clock with the volume pot, using Yuin PK1s or full size headphones. I do not use it with ultra-sensitive BA IEMs, because the gain is too high for IEMs in stock version. You can lower the gain if you know how to DIY and Kingwa will do it for you as well if you ship it back (some Headfiers have done so to use with IEMs with good result).
   
  I had an AMB M3 with a gain of 11X and it had channel imbalance under 8 o'clock and produced hiss with sensitive earphones. When we lowered the gain to 2X, hiss and channel imbalance were all gone. So it depends on setting of your equipments.
   
  As for the DC offset measurements, did those value remain the same after you played music for a few minutes? And what is the accuracy/noise floor of your DMM/measurement?
  Sorry I currently do not have the equipment to measure it for you but my unit sounds just right with my full size headphones.


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## DustinT

I'm thinking about buying a used one from this site and I'm pretty new to this world so I'm having a hard time getting perspective on how these would compare to others out there.
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/608867/audio-gd-sparrow-version-a-usb-dac
  
 At $140 shipped, is this a good deal? I'll be driving a pair of Sennheiser pc360s (internals of the 558s) since a lot of my use is Gaming, Music and Skype (in that order). I know these are a pretty entry level set of cans so I suspect the Sparrow will drive them to their best. I'm just wondering how expensive of a pair of cans I'd confidently run off this amp if I kept it for a few years.
  
 Also, would I be really wasting my time if I ran these off USB from my MacBook Pro? Yes, I know the sp-dif output would sound better but I'm not ocd enough to be concerned with extracting the last 1% of the sound quality. If so, I'd have bought better headphones.


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## bigandtall

I used to have one of these and loved it... but sold it! 
  
  Thinking seriously of getting another one. Is there something more current that I should be looking at? A newer GD-Audio model?


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## CSdread

I just picked one of these up used. It is the B version with no BNC instead of USB. I have been doing listening between my 3 dac/amps to really dial in to the differences. I also have a Schiit Fulla and an Emotiva Stealth DC-1. I really want to like the Sparrow. Its got a lot of power for such a small box. Now to be fair the Emotiva has dual DAC chips that run balanced which is going to produce a different sound than a single stereo DAC chip. The Emotiva being my reference point for really balanced, full sounds large soundstage; the Sparrow does not beat out that for sure. This is my first Audio-GD product that I have owned. I have always been interested in what they are doing as they are one of the last companies to be using the R/2R resistor ladder DAC chips. The sparrow of course does not have that chip nor because it is the B version the higher quality components.
  
 I tested with Hifiman HE-400i and AKG K240 headphones. Source Macbook Pro Optical Tos-link out to the DAC/AMP. The music I tested with were 16 bit 44100 FLAC and 44100 512kb/s and higher MP3s.
  
*Look and Feel*
 I really like the look of the black metal enclosure. Even though the pot is the lower grade one it still feels smooth. Though I can hear the channel imbalance at very low settings, these settings are not what I usually listen to music at. Comfortable listening is between 10 and 11 on the clock. The input switch does feel a bit cheap. Also it does not have a lot of weight so this could be put in a backpack and brought to and from the office or on a long trip. It is not portable in that it requires an outlet and is a bit big to roll around with at a coffee shop (Enter Schiit Fulla). It does not have a full splattering of inputs, like no analog in or out but I only use optical from my MBP anyway.  Overall I think it looks nice in the stack.
  
*Comparison to DC-1*
 The sparrow seems a bit brighter than the DC-1, with a bit less soundstage. The lows are less rich as well, seems like there is a bit of a roll off on the lower end. Things seemed closer into my head with the HE-400i (which have decent soundstage with just about any amp). When the bass gets heavy or the sounds get really complex and fast, i found that the sparrow was a bit blurry. I find the brightness to be more in the high mids to low highs. I did not find it brash or unlistenable though and as I can tell so far there is no fatigue with either systems. Overall imaging is fuller and more clean from the DC-1 but the Sparrow has decent imaging as well. Overall the polish and clean sound without rolloff on the low end makes the DC-1 the clear winner by a lot but also the DC-1 was $500 new and the Sparrow was $130 new. (DISCLOSURE: I got my sparrow used)
  
*Comparison to Schiit Fulla*
 Having a single DAC chip and no balanced parts this is a bit more of a fair comparison. These two DAC/AMPs sound very similar. Both have a level of brightness to them. The Schiit Fulla has a bit more brightness and is a bit more fatiguing than the Sparrow. Also the rolled low end is present in the Fulla as well, though just slightly less. Of course with the Fulla being USB powered and the Sparrow being outlet powered the Sparrow has a much larger amount of power and thus what is 12 o'clock on the Sparrow is 2 o'clock on the Fulla. The pot is much higher quality on the Sparrow as well, though both share the low end channel imbalance. During some vocal tracks where the Fulla seemed to struggle with the higher and louder notes of the male singers the sparrow did not blink an eye. The soundstage are similar though the sounds presented up front (close to you) are a bit closer on the Sparrow. On the point of details I can say that the Sparrow does render way more detail in the good quality sources than the Fulla. The detail with the sparrow is fantastic for the price.
  
 Overall I think the Sparrow is a nice and inexpensive amp, though it does not really beat out any of the equipment have it has a nice place as a DAC/AMP combo i can use as semi portable. In some ways it sounds like a larger and bit more powerful Schiit Fulla. I am not sure if it will remain a permanent fixture of my stack like the Emotiva DC-1 has earned but I think it is good enough for now.
  
 I would like to compare this DAC/AMP to something like the Big Ego from Emotiva as I think that it might loose to that from what i have read about the Big Ego.


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## anoobis

Yes, I know this is resurrecting an old thread but it is the official thread!  

Way back when I purchased a Sparrow B, which came with the AD1852 DAC module. At the time, I also got a Wolfson WM8741 module. This isn't a direct replacement but only requires a minor modification. Well, I can no longer find the details!

As far as I can tell, the wire on the WM8741 needs to be connected to a 3.3V supply and that should be it. The ZIF socket for these pins would be 5V, so the pins have been removed. I've soldered the wire to a pin on the DIR module and am hoping it was the right choice! There are at least four that seem to be 3.3V.

Firstly, am I correct that this is all that's required? Secondly, do the photos look right and does the connection look good enough (i.e. not joining pins and so on)?

I bravely (stupidly?) tried it anyway and it's not blown up yet, so fingers crossed it's all good!

Many thanks.


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## anoobis

While I'm at it, is it possible/easy to reduce the gain on the Sparrow?

Much of the time I can barely take the volume control above the 8 o'clock position with lower impedance (32 ohm) headphones. This means I have channel imbalance despite the upgraded ALPS potentiometer and of course a very sensitive volume control.

I would still need to use it with 300 and 600 ohm cans but seeing as even these don't require more than 1 o'clock, I don't see that being an issue. Is there any downside if this can be done, e.g. more noise?


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