# REVIEW SUMMARY: A ranking of 32 tube and tube/hybrid headphone amps



## Skylab

I have been asked repeatedly to do this, and I have resisted so far, but I have decided to go ahead and rank all of the tube amps that I have either formally reviewed, or that I have owned for a long time but not formally reviewed.

 Note that this is a HUGE range in prices, from $6,000 to $120!!!! And note also that I ACTUALLY RECOMMEND and like EVERY ONE of these amps – understanding the strengths and weaknesses of each. So in some ways this should be looked at more just as a list than a ranking, although I did put them in order of my preference. I should also point out that, IMO, the amps ranked from #5 on down are all VERY close in terms of sound quality. From 6 up, some significant jumps begin to occur.

 By request, I have included the price to the best of my ability. Prices are all in USD, and do not include shipping unless indicated.

 Note also that I have not included on this list amps that I heard only at a "meet". This is not a long enough exposure for a proper evaluation. So in spite of my having been very impressed with amps such as the RSA Raptor and B-52, and the Eddie Current Zana Deux, since I have only heard these at meets, I cannot include them on a list like this. All of the amps on this list I had on loan for a full review, or I actually bought and owned for some period of time.

 I have posted a link to all of my reviews. I hope this is helpful in some way.

 1. Leben CS300X (Review: http://www.head-fi.org/products/leben-cs-300x) - $3,500
 2. RedWineAudio Isabella (Review: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f113/r...ne-amp-368375/ ) - $4,500 without DAC
  3. RedWineAudio "Audeze Edition" $3950 [NOTE: ranking is essentially derived only from use with LCD-2 headphones, and the RWA AE isn't really even a "tube hybrid" in some senses, although there is a tube directly in the signal path, so I included it here] (Review: http://www.head-fi.org/t/572939/review-red-wine-audio-audeze-edition-balanced-headphone-amplifier-dac-combo)
  3. Apex Peak/Volcano (Review: http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/498865/apex-peak-and-volcano-loaner-program/15#post_7035840) $2,495
  4. Decware Mini-Torii (no formal review - really only for low impedance/low sensitivity headphones like Planar/orthos) $1,495
  4. WooAudio WA-22 (no formal review) $1,900
  4. Trafomatic Experience Head One (no formal review) $1,500
 5. Ray Samuels Audio Stealth (Short Review: http://www.head-fi.org/products/ray-samuels-audio-the-stealth/reviews#4252) - $2,495
  5. WooAudio WA2 (Short review: http://www.head-fi.org/products/woo-audio-2/reviews#4253) - $1,050
 5. Decware Zen Select CSP-2 (Review: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f5/rev...ne-amp-338147/ ) $795 - better for high impedance headphones that WA6
  6. WooAudio WA6 (no formal review) - $620 - better for low impedance headphones than CSP-2
 6. Schiit Lyr $449 (no formal review) 6. Darkvoice 337 (Review: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f5/rev...mpared-324469/ ) $750 including shipping from China
 7. Bijou (Review: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f5/rev...ne-amp-286709/ ) - DIY, price varies
 8. Bottlehead "Crack w/Speedball" (No formal review) - note that the Elekit will be better for low impedance headphones
  8. Elekit TU882 $425 (Review: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f5/rev...embled-434829/ )
 9. Ming-Da MC-84C -07 (no formal review) - $415
 10.AudioTailor Jade (Review: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f5/rev...lifier-389381/ ) - $345
  11. Schiit Valhalla (Review: http://www.head-fi.org/products/schiit-valhalla/reviews#4251) $349
 12. Transcendere Sweet-5 (Review: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f5/rev...2/#post5358135) - $597
 13. Yarland P100 (Review: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f5/rev...p-pics-237394/ ) $495 - new 2009 model
 14. J Sound Lab "Headphone" (Review: http://www.head-fi.org/products/j-sound-lab-headphone)- $399
 15. SpaceTechLabs 6AS7G (Review: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f5/rev...mpared-324469/ ) - $790
 16. Antique Sound Labs MG Head DT - $395
 17.WooAudio 3+ (Review: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f5/rev...mpared-324469/ ) $495
 17.Darkvoice 336SE - $299 shipped from China
 18. Musical Paradise MP301 Mk 2 (Review: http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/553325/review-musical-paradise-mp-301-mk2-vacuum-tube-integrated-amp#post_7460704) - currently $269
 19.Head-Direct EF1 (Review: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f5/rev...ne-amp-361841/ ) - currently $299
 20. Musical Paradise MP301 - (Review: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f5/rev...er-amp-421314/ ) - $199
 21.Eddie Current LunchBox II - $225
 22.Qinpu A-3 (Review: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f5/rev...eakers-401697/ ) - $240
 23. HifiMan EF2 - $189 (Review: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/6179650-post590.html)
 24. TNS Sweet-2 - $220
 25.Qinpu Q-2 (Review: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f5/rev...eakers-401697/ ) - $110


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## vkvedam

Appreciated Skylab for your astonishing effort in this regard.


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## ddoingwell

Thanks once again for all your excellent work. I've said it before and it's worth repeating: the efforts of you and a small handful of other Head-fi review-giants make this site the wonderful experience it is for so many of us other mutts.

 Regarding this line-up of hybrid amps, where would you put the Little Dot 1+? Anywhere? Nowhere? With all the clamour that amp received a few months ago, I'm a bit surprised to not see it listed here especially with the Quinpu getting a look-in.

 Thanks,
 Don


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## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ddoingwell* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks once again for all your excellent work. I've said it before and it's worth repeating: the efforts of you and a small handful of other Head-fi review-giants make this site the wonderful experience it is for so many of us other mutts.

 Regarding this line-up of hybrid amps, where would you put the Little Dot 1+? Anywhere? Nowhere? With all the clamour that amp received a few months ago, I'm a bit surprised to not see it listed here especially with the Quinpu getting a look-in.

 Thanks,
 Don_

 

Thanks! I actually really wish I had ever heard any of the Little Dot amps, but I have not. Their absence from this list is a problem for sure, but I don't want to buy one just to review it, so I'm not sure that there will be a cure.


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## tbonner1

Awesome compendium and detailed as usual.

 Very interesting to see where the PPX3 resides relative to the WooAudio 3+.

 Thanks once again for your hard work saving countless people time and money not the mention making our hobby more enjoyable.

 In Skylab We Trust.

 Tom


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## moodyrn

Skylab I would love for you to review the Ming-Da MC-84C -07. I was skeptical about purchasing this, but I did after a glowing recommendation from you. You were absolutely right. I have about 100 hours burned in on this thing, and I'm very impressed so far. I would like to see if your impressions are similar to mine. Anyway thanks for recommending me this amp. There's not many people talking about this. So it maybe one of the best kept secrets on headfi. It can be had for as little as 350.00usd. Wow.


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## Lil' Knight

That's awsome, Rob! If only I could send you my LD MK VI to review.


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## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *moodyrn* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Skylab I would love for you to review the Ming-Da MC-84C -07. I was skeptical about purchasing this, but I did after a glowing recommendation from you. You were absolutely right. I have about 100 hours burned in on this thing, and I'm very impressed so far. I would like to see if your impressions are similar to mine. Anyway thanks for recommending me this amp. There's not many people talking about this. So it maybe one of the best kept secrets on headfi. It can be had for as little as 350.00usd. Wow._

 

Yep, the MC-84C 07 is a very nice amp. I played it with my AKG K340s for Ray Samuels at a meet, and even he was impressed 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





. It does prefer high-impedance headphones, and good tubes for it are a little pricey, but with my all-Mullard tube complement, its an amazingly good amp. 
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Lil' Knight* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's awsome, Rob! If only I could send you my LD MK VI to review._

 


 Thanks! Yeah, "borrowing" tube amps is just risky business


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## ddoingwell

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks! I actually really wish I had ever heard any of the Little Dot amps, but I have not. Their absence from this list is a problem for sure, but I don't want to buy one just to review it, so I'm not sure that there will be a cure._

 

Maybe someone should just ASK LD to send a selection of amps to our good friend Rob. He seems like such a nice bloke...


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## Spareribs

The Red Wine is some serious stuff. The Red Wine Signature amp is one of the best K1000 amps.


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## sacd lover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Spareribs* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The Red Wine is some serious stuff. The Red Wine Signature amp is one of the best K1000 amps._

 


 I really like the hybrid amps, even the inexpensive ones. When I saw the Red Wine at the top I was interested 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ....for about one minute until I saw the price. I didnt expect a $6000 price tag .... ouch. Sure looks nice though.


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## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sacd lover* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I really like the hybrid amps, even the inexpensive ones. When I saw the Red Wine at the top I was interested 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ....for about one minute until I saw the price. I didnt expect a $6000 price tag .... ouch. Sure looks nice though._

 

Yep, seriously good, and seriously expensive. Of course for that price you do get an awesome DAC as well.


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## mbd2884

You are missing the Zana Deux!


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## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mbd2884* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You are missing the Zana Deux!_

 

Please re-read the first post - I added a note that relates to (among others) the Zana Deux.


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## moonboy403

Thanks for all the hard work you've put in Skylab! I really appreciate your effort.


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## Vandal

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks! I actually really wish I had ever heard any of the Little Dot amps, but I have not. Their absence from this list is a problem for sure, but I don't want to buy one just to review it, so I'm not sure that there will be a cure._

 

Very nice reviews. So the WA3+ is the least preferred; not surprising considering its price. And superb effort on compiling and linking to so many reviews. I read them all!


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## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Vandal* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Very nice reviews. So the WA3+ is the least preferred; not surprising considering its price. And superb effort on compiling and linking to so many reviews. I read them all!_

 

Actually it was not the least preferred. But in any case you have understood correctly that in this case I like and can recommend, given the right headphones and budget, all of these amps.


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## Vandal

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Actually it was not the least preferred. But in any case you have understood correctly that in this case I like and can recommend, given the right headphones and budget, all of these amps._

 

Thanks for the prompt reply here. I guess I should have taken the review more in context and not hung on to every word of the actual physical review.


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## krmathis

Nice summary!
 ..and a great batch of reviews behind it.


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## paara

Great reviews and thank you for the summary.
 Keep up the good "work"


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## Bazile

Sigh;

 My tube amp is only 16th on Sky's list...but wait. I use 2 of them..perhaps I'm really 32nd.

 Just kidding. Many thanks for your work Sir. Like most others I don't get to listen to many amps. I read reviews. I listen to what I can, and I thank you and the other reviewers who provide a consistent "view" of the sound of things we don't get to hear.

 Bazile


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## intoart

What? No Little Dots at all?!


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## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *intoart* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What? No Little Dots at all?!_

 

Please read post #4


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## Currawong

Nice work. Thanks for assembling this list. Without your, and other people's considerable efforts, many of us would be considerably more lost here.


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## vvanrij

You should add price tags after the names, put things in perspective. I'm surprised to see the darkvoice 337 so high, never knew it was any good 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 edit: thanks for the price tags


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## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *vvanrij* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You should add price tags after the names, put things in perspective. I'm surprised to see the darkvoice 337 so high, never knew it was any good 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 edit: thanks for the price tags 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Done, to the best of my ability.


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## trickywombat

Thanks for the hard work, Skylab.

 Someday, you will have your own celebrity restaurant:


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## Skylab

LMAO!!!! Nice one.


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## daleda@sbcglobal

Thank you. Nice to see mine at #11 (and this after some much more expensive amps thru my room). I did have the DV337 for some time and you helped with tube selection but I never warmed to it. The mighty little original ASL is hard to beat for the $$ and it's flexibility is wonderful between OTL (Senns) and Trans (Denon's) - I am curious about the new DV3322 however!
 Great work!


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## holdendebeans

Rob, your value to the Head-Fi community cannot be overstated. Thank you for the hours and hours you spend reviewing equipment and sharing your opinions. People pay money for this kind of information.

 I would like to buy you a beer at the next opportunity


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## cnocmoy

Thanks for all your hard work, we would never get to hear all of these amps. This list of reviews helped me to make a more informed choice in my price range. 
 I think you deserve more than one beer!
 Cnocmoy.


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## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *holdendebeans* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Rob, your value to the Head-Fi community cannot be overstated. Thank you for the hours and hours you spend reviewing equipment and sharing your opinions. People pay money for this kind of information.

 I would like to buy you a beer at the next opportunity 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

WOOHOO! Come to the next ChiUniFi meet and I will take you up on that beer


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## tosehee

Where does Woo Audio 6 and 6SE falls in?


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## Skylab

Unfortunately I cannot say - I have never heard a Woo6.


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## apatN

Some great work you put into this. Well appreciated!


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## efm2

Hi skylab,

 My first post here. I'm torn between Emmeline II The Raptor and Decware CSP2. Having heard both amps, can you give me the difference and similarities between the two? My music preference is Jazz and male/female vocals, small jazz ensemble, and occasional R&B. Please help me choose between the two. Source would be the Meridian 508. And what will be a better choice of headphone from your chosen amp? I'm leaning towards the Grados or the Senns whatever might suite the amp of your choice.

 Thanks.


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## Skylab

Both amps are excellent. I'm sure you would enjoy them both. The CSP-2 is less expensive, and in the same league sonically, so perhaps that might impact your decision.

 In either case we are talking about OTL amps and Grados are not a good choice due to their low impedance. Senns or Beyers would be great choices.


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## efm2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Both amps are excellent. I'm sure you would enjoy them both. The CSP-2 is less expensive, and in the same league sonically, so perhaps that might impact your decision.

 In either case we are talking about OTL amps and Grados are not a good choice due to their low impedance. Senns or Beyers would be great choices._

 

Thanks Skylab. Much appreciated.


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## spunkmeyer

Thanks Skylab, your hard work means a lot to many of us (though my wife may dispute that if I want to purchase another amp!- a definite possibility after I go through your reviews).


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## dario

Skylab have you ever "tried" the Ming Mc66?
 Theorically it would be better than the Ming in the list, is that right?


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## Skylab

Actually I know nothing about the Ming Mc66 - and I couldn't find it on Pacific Valve's website...


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## dario

It's this one:
Meixing electronics factory


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## CrazyRay

Thanks Skylab! 
 I will keep an eye on this thread to see if you get to audition the WA6 SE.
 I would love to see how it stacks up against those other amps!


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## darwinshardhat

Skylab, I just wanted to throw another thank you into the mix. These cumulative reviews with personal ranking are immensely helpful in the shopping process for many and I can only imagine just how much it takes in personal resources to get it together. 

 That said I just ordered a tube amp not even mentioned on your list lol : ). I had a credit to use, otherwise it would have been one of the best amps I could afford from your list. Best Wishes!


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## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dario* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It's this one:
Meixing electronics factory



_

 

No, the Ming-Da MC84-C-07 would be the higher-end amp in the Ming-Da line-up for sure.


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## dario

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No, the Ming-Da MC84-C-07 would be the higher-end amp in the Ming-Da line-up for sure._

 

I asked becouse the Mc66 cost more in some store and on paper has better spec, than the Mc84 is definitely better than the MC66?

 And you know how can be compared the MC84 to the Darkvoice line (It would be better than the 332-3322? Considering that from your charts is better than 336 and worse than 337)?
 It would be good a good choice for the Hd650?


 Thanks, Dario.


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## Skylab

Well I have not listened to them, so I guess I shouldn't say for sure, but based on the tube complement I would assume the 84-07C would be the superior amp.


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## Frihed89

Thanks for the comparisons. You have to come to Copenhagen to compare my MAD EAR+HD! 

 I just saw your superb RedWine Isabella review and posted a question over there about where the Isabella stood in relation to the border between transparency and sterility. I personally prefer equipment that focuses on presenting a musical performance as a whole and not a purely technical rendition of the music - perfectly detailed, transparent and neutral. Audio Note is very good at this.


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## Skylab

I agree with you 100% (and answered in that review thread).

 Will let you know when I am next in Copenhagen 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I was in Oulu, Finland in November, so stranger things have happened...


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## Skylab

I have added: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f5/rev...2/#post5358135


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## moodyrn

Skylab have you ever thought of doing a review of the ming da mc84 c07? It's a very underated amp, and for that price it can't be beat imo. I think a lot of people don't know about it and probably spend more on a lesser sounding amp. Just my .02 cents though.


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## Skylab

Well, the MC84-07C *IS* on this list - you saw that, yes?

 I made a lot of comments on it in the thread that covers it. I have not "formally" reviewed it, but I've commented on it extensively. I like it a LOT - great amp. I use it with my DT770/600's - truly wonderful pairing.


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## moodyrn

Yeah I *SAW* it on the list. I was just asking about a "formal" review of it like most of the other amps that's on the list, but never mind.


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## BushGuy

I also have the Ming Da MC84-07C and use it both with dt990/600, and modded K340. Yes, it is a steal and a piece of "audio art" - physically beautiful.

 Like most other amps produced in the mysterious east - you want to upgrade the tubes. I found that basically, orig. (meaning not the current production) Mullard EL84, and Raytheon 5751/windmill work beautifully for me. Changing the their stock green tube to Amperex 6HU6 also made a significant difference. I haven't gotten arround trying some of the other 6HU6 alternatives.


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## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *moodyrn* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yeah I *SAW* it on the list. I was just asking about a "formal" review of it like most of the other amps that's on the list, but never mind._

 

OK thanks - I wasn't trying to be rude, just clarifying. I have some other amps coming in for review but I will write up the Ming-Da when I get some time. You are 100% right - it is a great amp, and definitely underrated!


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## dario

How much would cost good tubes for the Ming Mc84?


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## Skylab

It does use somewhat expensive tube types - that is one potential disadvantage in some respects. A good set-up of all NOS Sylvania or RCA tubes will cost $100-120.


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## moodyrn

Tubes for it can be expensive, but even after buying all nos tubes, the price wil still be in the 500-550 range. That (IMO) will still be a bargin for this amp. And on to of that, it looks just as good as it sounds. If you notice, in the rankings the few amps Skylab likes better cost significantly more than this amp, and quite a few ranked below it are more expensive.


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## dario

would be interesting know how it compare to amp like the new 3322 at this point and than how the 337 compare to the 3322, becouse from what they say, they do now only the 337se...
 also the internal pictures of the MC84 seems to be inferior to the internal pictures of the 3322 but they are just pictures...


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## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *moodyrn* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Tubes for it can be expensive, but even after buying all nos tubes, the price wil still be in the 500-550 range. That (IMO) will still be a bargin for this amp. And on to of that, it looks just as good as it sounds. If you notice, in the rankings the few amps Skylab likes better cost significantly more than this amp, and quite a few ranked below it are more expensive._

 

YUP! I really enjoy the Ming-Da - it has hung in there with more expensive amps and done very well.


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## Sganzerla

Skylab, can't you get your hands on Bottlehead SEX?
 This would be interesting...


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## Lornecherry

Interesting that the big Darkvoice is right up there with the SinglePower. Sure wish someone would send you a 337SE with rolled tubes. Could it be the sweet spot in the $1K range?

 Of course we'd love to see how you rate the Experience 1 and also the new ALO Amphora, also around a grand each.


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## rurika

Thanks for your work Skylab !!.


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## Skylab

I will be getting a review sample of the new ALO/RedWineAudio amp.


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## mdumeny

I had a problem linking to your #1 review - in case others have similar problems, here's the link that worked for me:

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f113/r...ne-amp-368375/

 Marcel


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## vberch

Great job Skylab!!!!


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## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mdumeny* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I had a problem linking to your #1 review - in case others have similar problems, here's the link that worked for me:

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f113/r...ne-amp-368375/

 Marcel_

 

Thank you! It's fixed.


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## vberch

DV 337SE is a great value but dollar for dollar SP might give you a little bit more, especially now that you can get a pre-loved MPX3 for $600-$800. There are definitely serious issues with Singlepower customer service and if I had to repair any SP, I'd resort to local help. But that being said, I am sure sending Darkvoice to China is no picnic either . 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Lornecherry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Interesting that the big Darkvoice is right up there with the SinglePower. Sure wish someone would send you a 337SE with rolled tubes. Could it be the sweet spot in the $1K range?

 Of course we'd love to see how you rate the Experience 1 and also the new ALO Amphora, also around a grand each._


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## Skylab

I will soon be adding an review of the updated Yarland P100, and the Musical Paradise MP-301 6V6 Mini Tube Amp.


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## dario

Skylab from your first impressions, how do you rate the C2C?
 In the first 10 or last 10 (for example)?


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## Skylab

We'll, since the C-2C is a solid state amp, it won't be on this list


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## jrebman

Newbie here and first head-fi post. Just want to thank skylab for all this work -- sounds like a true labor of love.

 I just took delivery of an ASL MG Head Mk. III and really love it with my hd-650s, but I see the review for the older version is no longer active -- can I assume because it is no longer available? Have you heard the Mk. III yet?

 I also have a Millet MiniMAX and Bottlehead s.e.x. amp under construction, but it will be a while yet before those are making music.

 -- Jim


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## dario

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_We'll, since the C-2C is a solid state amp, it won't be on this list 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I understand but I think that some qualities are objective and without considering the merits of the dispute SS vs Tube, in any case I will wait for your opinion


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## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jrebman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just took delivery of an ASL MG Head Mk. III and really love it with my hd-650s, but I see the review for the older version is no longer active -- can I assume because it is no longer available? Have you heard the Mk. III yet?


_

 

Thanks. Sorry, but I have not heard the newest version.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dario* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I understand but I think that some qualities are objective and without considering the merits of the dispute SS vs Tube, in any case I will wait for your opinion
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

OK I gotcha. Will definitely be placing the C-2C in the pantheon of amps I have heard


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## Skylab

Just as an FYI, I have posted an updated review on the Yarland P100, having auditioned the very much updated 2009 model.


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## Skylab

Added Musical Paradise MP-301.


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## greenarrow

Great job, Skylab on the reviews. Is there (or was) a review on the DV 336SE?

 Give this man a [size=x-large]*TIGER*[/size]


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## paara

The Decware Zen Select CSP-2 doesn't cost 695$ any more. New price *795.00$* Will that affect its rank, or are they ranked after sound quality alone?

 Thanks for your reviews


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## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *greenarrow* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Great job, Skylab on the reviews. Is there (or was) a review on the DV 336SE?
_

 

Thanks! No, I never actually did a formal review on the DV336SE.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *paara* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The Decware Zen Select CSP-2 doesn't cost 695$ any more. New price *795.00$* Will that affect its rank, or are they ranked after sound quality alone?

 Thanks for your reviews 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

My pleasure 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The change in price does not effect the rank of the CSP-2 - the rankings are based just on sound quality.


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## moonboy403

Maybe you should rank them on a scale of 100 with #1 being 100 so we can get a relative feel of how good they're from each other IYO of course.

 Any thought?


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## Skylab

Sorry, but that's just more specific than one can be about this sort of thing. IMO, it doesn't work that way, because there aretoo many variables - especially with tube amps. What tubes, headphones, music, etc. - I was hesitant enough to rank them at all.


----------



## Von Soundcard

Hi Skylab, I thought I'd ask for your advice since you seem to have heard most of the amps I like. I'm still in the market for a (low- to mid-end) tube amp of the warm, tubey, meaty and generally 'euphonic' variety. I would not spend more than $500 on it, hopefully around 300 (the main amp will have the more serious 'pro sound').

 The two amps I have recently read about that seem to fit the bill are the Musical Paradise MP301 and the Ming-Da MC-84C. The first seems more fun and coloured, the second more transparent and balanced while still on the classical 'tubey' side. Both have a very good performance/price ratio.

 However I would like to hear your opinions on the differences between the two, regarding detail, dynamics, definition etc. as well as their particular signatures, including the degree of 'tubeyness'. 
 Also if there is any other amp you might recommend, fitting the 'musical' profile and with a high performance/price ratio.

 Thanks


----------



## Skylab

Those 2 amps are definitely strong contenders given what you indicate as your proclivities. I don't have time at the moment for a detailed comparison, but the Ming-Da is better in terms of detail, dynamics, and definition. That really isn;t what the MP-301 gives you. The Ming Da is the better amp, but well tubed it will cost you $400, versus the $250 for the MP-301 well-tubed. You pays your money, and you takes your choice. The MP301 is also the better choice for low-impedance headphones.


----------



## Von Soundcard

Thanks for your help. If you remember any other interesting details, I will not buy any of them for another 2-3 weeks. The thing is all my amps already are / will be warm to some degree. So in this case I'm also very interested in the amp's "character", it has to be 'something different' as well as sound reasonably good to a trained ear to justify _another_ purchase


----------



## WittyzTH

great review. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Skylab, if you like you review RSA Raptor, I can send it to you since I've not used it for a while now.


----------



## moonboy403

You HAVE to take the generous offer Skylab!

 On the other hand, I have a DAC (Keces DA131.1) lying around, would you be interested in doing a review for this mid/lo fi DAC?


----------



## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *WittyzTH* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_great review. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Skylab, if you like you review RSA Raptor, I can send it to you since I've not used it for a while now. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Thanks VERY kindly, but I will pass, since Ray has been kind enough to offer to loan me an A-10 to review 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *moonboy403* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You HAVE to take the generous offer Skylab!

 On the other hand, I have a DAC (Keces DA131.1) lying around, would you be interested in doing a review for this mid/lo fi DAC?_

 

Thank you as well, but I will pass on that too. I have a Carat-Topaz DAC on the review bench now, and I already have 3 amps in the cue behind it. So my dance card is pretty full at the moment


----------



## Haoting

Skylab, did Xiangsheng agree to send you any of their products for review? I doubt it. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Btw, I agree with an earlier post that without one or two of Little Dot's tube headphone amps on the list, the list is missing one of the big players in this category.


----------



## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Haoting* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Skylab, did Xiangsheng agree to send you any of their products for review? I doubt it. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Btw, I agree with an earlier post that without one or two of Little Dot's tube headphone amps on the list, the list is missing one of the big players in this category._

 

I did get a PM from Xiangsheng offering a review, and I replied, but no confirmation yet. So I am hopeful, but not a done deal.

 As for Little Dot, I'd be happy to review one of their amps, but I am not going to buy one just to review it


----------



## Skylab

Dear Head-fiers:

 I have done some extensive comparisons lately between the Decware CSP-2, Darkvoice 337, and the Singlepower Extreme, just for my own edification. I have decided, following these, that a re-ranking was in order. The Decware CSP-2, with Amperex 6DJ8's and the Sophia Princess 274b, outperforms the DV 337. It is also quieter - in fact, it is the quietest tube amp I own. It also does better with lower-impedance headphones than the DV337 does, although the 337 itself is better in that regard than most OTL tube amps.

 I also think the CSP-2 is very nearly as good, if not as good, as the Singlepower Extreme.

 Given that it is very questionable if the Singlepower amps are available for sale (and even if they were ordering one would be a very risky venture indeed, it seems), the Decware would be my go-to amp in the $1000-ish price range (although I have never heard the Woo 2 or 6 outside of meets).


----------



## RationalGaze

Great job Skylab.

 Any change of getting your hands on some Mapletree Audio Design amps?


----------



## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *RationalGaze* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Any change of getting your hands on some Mapletree Audio Design amps?_

 


 Gosh I would love too - are they still in production?


----------



## RationalGaze

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Gosh I would love too - are they still in production?_

 

They are very much in production. D. Pepperd I think has two models, the High Definition and the Super. So I guess they are still going strong.


----------



## Skylab

Cool, I will see if I can get a loaner to review.


----------



## hvu

Hi Skylab
 I having a tough time choosing between the Mingda MC84C07 and the Audiotailor Jade.
 I plan to use the amp with my HD650 maybe add a DT880/600ohm down the line but what I'm worried about is the issue that both amps have with issue with low impedance headphones.
 Right now beside from HD650 I have a pair of K701/62ohms, SR80/32ohms and M50/38ohms that I am current pair with the iBasso D10.
 I was wondering if the Audiotailor Jade would have any hum issues driving low impedance headphones like the MC84C07 with headphones with lower than 250ohms?
 Second, I was wondering if you have done a official review of the Mingda MC84C07 because I can't fine a full review just little bits here and there?


----------



## alexboo12

Just chime in since i went through the same process. I got the Jade instead so i dont have to worry about the hizz or hum with low impedance cans. I got HD650 and AKG271s, and so far pretty happy with the Jade, no hiss or hum on both cans.
 Cheers,
 AP


----------



## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *hvu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi Skylab
 I having a tough time choosing between the Mingda MC84C07 and the Audiotailor Jade.
 I plan to use the amp with my HD650 maybe add a DT880/600ohm down the line but what I'm worried about is the issue that both amps have with issue with low impedance headphones.
 Right now beside from HD650 I have a pair of K701/62ohms, SR80/32ohms and M50/38ohms that I am current pair with the iBasso D10.
 I was wondering if the Audiotailor Jade would have any hum issues driving low impedance headphones like the MC84C07 with headphones with lower than 250ohms?
 Second, I was wondering if you have done a official review of the Mingda MC84C07 because I can't fine a full review just little bits here and there?_

 

I think the Jade would be a better choice in your case - it does seem to handle lower impedance headphones better.

 I did not do a full review of the Ming-Da - I bought that amp just for my enjoyment. And all you have to do is look at what's going on in the thread of my review of the Senn HD800 to see why I sometimes prefer NOT to review things I buy for pleasure


----------



## hvu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I did not do a full review of the Ming-Da - I bought that amp just for my enjoyment. And all you have to do is look at what's going on in the thread of my review of the Senn HD800 to see why I sometimes prefer NOT to review things I buy for pleasure 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I understand where you coming from, it becomes really hard and not as fun to enjoy something when you have to start nitpicking at something so bought solely for pleasure.
 Yes, I saw the HD800 review thread and I read your review of it twice just to make sure I didn't miss anything. By the end of it I was like wow, I was really hoping that you would backup the claims and raved reviews of the HD800 as other user have done and that their has been a holy grail of all headphones but I am relieved now that I have a honest view of the characteristic of the HD800.
 Because I have listened to both the HD580 and HD650 I found the HD580 to boring for my taste and HD650 just gives it that extra punch in the bass just to give the music some extra flavor just the way I like it. So I guess I won't be giving up my kidney for a pair HD800 anytime soon.

 Skylab I was wondering from your experience which of the two amps would have wider sound stage and better treble extension?
 Second which one of the two amps would drive the HD650 better to their full potential?


----------



## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *hvu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 Skylab I was wondering from your experience which of the two amps would have wider sound stage and better treble extension?
 Second which one of the two amps would drive the HD650 better to their full potential?_

 

I think the Jade has both the wider soundstage and the better treble extension. Where the Ming-Da wins is in soundstage depth, and in it's generally very musical and engaging nature.

 I never listened to the HD650 on either, though, so cannot help there, sorry.


----------



## hvu

I'm sorry could you expand the difference between a wider soundstage vs soundstage depth because aren't they the same?


----------



## Happy Camper

Width is from left to right. Depth is from the center of your head forward. Height is from top to bottom. This is the illusion of a 3 D headscape.


----------



## Skylab

Right!


----------



## hvu

Hmmm, that is very interesting the mingda sounds more of the amp I am looking for and I'll just power my lower impedance amp with my D10.
 Now I just need to get the funds.
 Thank for all the help Skylab.


----------



## moodyrn

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *hvu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hmmm, that is very interesting the mingda sounds more of the amp I am looking for and I'll just power my lower impedance amp with my D10.
 Now I just need to get the funds.
 Thank for all the help Skylab._

 


 You could just use an impedance adapter with your lower impedance cans. I've had great results with mine with not any loss in sound quality(that I can hear). So you can have your cake and eat it too. Heck I even enjoy my etymotic er4s out the the mingda using a 300 ohm adapter.


----------



## hvu

What kind of adapter are you talking about?


----------



## moodyrn

It's an adapter that adds impedance to your headphones. I got mine from this guy. ETYMOTIC ER4P TO ER4S RESISTOR ADAPTOR (3.5MM PLUG) - eBay (item 290323795596 end time Jul-12-09 05:27:43 PDT)

 You can order any impedance you want for no additional charge. I haven't notice any loss in quality using these either.


----------



## Skylab

I added the Elekit TU882 to this survey:

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f5/rev...embled-434829/

 Also, I want to note: IMO, the amps ranked from #7 on down are all pretty close in terms of overall sound quality. That is NOT to say they sound the same - they sound very different, but in terms of overall performance, there are not huge gaps there. That is why it's important, if you are using this list as a guide of any kind, to read the whole review of any amp you're considering, and to seek out other people's reviews and opinions as well.


----------



## mrarroyo

Rob, enjoyed reading your review of the TU882! IMO as you and others have read it is a heck of a good sounding amp at a heck of a good price. I sure hope they sell a lot because each of their owners will be happy campers.

 I hate repeating myself but organic and involving are the two words I would use w/ the TU882. I will say that although it is utilitarian looking that is a good thing specially as an office rig, thus less likely to get stolen. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Glad you liked it as much and I will close by saying that it is easy to make a great tasting wine for $200 a bottle, but much harder to do so for $20.

 Congratulations Victor and the rest!


----------



## runswithaliens

Hey Soundlab, thanks for all the time and effort you have put into your many reviews and this list - they are very helpful. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 If you have the time and inclination, I have some questions about the Antique Sound Labs MG Head DT that you have listed, but didn't review. You mentioned it on another thread just recently and it got my curiosity. I am not sure if this is Antique Sound Lab's official home page or not, or if the amp has changed much since you had yours (ANTIQUE SOUNDLAB) but I notice it seems to have two sets of RCA jacks on back, and two sets of headphone jacks on front. The pictures there are so tiny and dark though that I can't tell what's what.

 Is one set of RCA jacks on back a pre-amp out? 

 Do the transformer coupled outputs still have a nice tube-enhanced sound for low-impedance cans (I have among others, the Denon D5000s)? 

 Finally, if one set of the rear RCA jacks is not a pre-amp out, could one of the front headphone jacks be used that way?

 Although all of my headphones are currently low impedance, I know I am going to want to get some high impedance phones to try out sooner than later, and at the same time I want to experiment with sending tube-enhanced-sound (TES?) to my JBL powered monitors. Or am I looking for the impossible in an amp in this price range that can do it all?

 Thanks in advance.


----------



## Skylab

I believe the second set of outputs are indeed preamp outputs on the ASL amp. And yes, the transformer-coupled outputs still provide tube-type sound.


----------



## Skylab

I added my thoughts on the EF2: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/6179650-post590.html


----------



## hedmaster

Thanks very much for the great reviews! It is exactly this kind of help that gives us new audiophiles the help we truly need to sort the the seemingly endless variety of amps out there!

 I am curious, is there any reason that there are no balanced rigs in your reviews? Did you not find them to be in the top 21, or was this just a review of the SE amps that are out there? 

 I ask because I am dying to go balanced. I am currently using a Millet Max hybrid, SE, of course, which I truly enjoy with my DT880s. However, all of the amazing things that fellow head fiers describe about their balanced rigs has my curiosity peaked.

 I am thinking of going with the Little Dot MKVII+, or maybe even the MKVI+ tube hybrid, which is also balanced. However, your reviews have me wondering if the balanced is really worth it or not, as it limits the field as far as amps go, either SS, or tubes.

 Thanks for taking the time to answer this, I appreciate it!

 Matt


----------



## Skylab

It really just happened to work out that way. I have a similar list like this that is just Solid State amps, and there are numerous balanced amps on that list. But I have never had a balanced tube amp to review - note that with one exception, all of the tube amps on my review list are really "budget" tube amps - that is what I have had access to to review, either through loan or purchase.


----------



## St3ve

Great list of reviews Skylab, interesting and informative reading.


----------



## hedmaster

OK, well maybe in the future there will be opportunity to review some balanced rigs in the future. I am currently interested in the LD MKVI+, as that is a very low cost balanced tube hybrid from a reputable company, with several good reviews that I have read. However, since Little Dot does not send out their gear specifically to be reviewed, it is hard to find and compare them as easily as most other amps. Which is where a review by you, or another experienced reviewer here would be invaluable to me, and perhaps others in the market for a low cost, balanced, hybrid tube amp.

 I am purchasing a Little Dot MKVII+ this month. I was curious if you have ever had a chance to listen to it or not. I know that it is spoken of highly by others on here, yet a few of the more experienced head fiers have sort of dismissed it as not being a very good product.

 I am very fortunate and thankful to be able to afford an entire rig, including a new LD DAC_1, LD MKVII+, and a DT880 600ohm balanced (next purchase). I personally am on a fixed income, which leaves me with a little disposable income each month. I know others are blessed enough to buy what they please, and thus have a much broader and intimate knowledge of the higher end gear that tends to be out of reach for a guy like me. With that in mind, I think I will be quite happy with my LD rig. I just sold my Keces 131 MKII in order to purchase my LD MKVII+. I enjoy the LD DAC_1 more than I did the Keces. 

 On that note, I thank you, and all the other head fiers, for sharing your experiences and expertise with the rest of us. I especially like that you have a desire to help those that are looking for lower mid fi and up. It is really a joy to be in this hobby with so many of you experienced head fiers looking out for us new ones, and each other, by continually sharing your experiences and observations with us. 

 Your quick response speaks for itself! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Take care,
 Matt 


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It really just happened to work out that way. I have a similar list like this that is just Solid State amps, and there are numerous balanced amps on that list. But I have never had a balanced tube amp to review - note that with one exception, all of the tube amps on my review list are really "budget" tube amps - that is what I have had access to to review, either through loan or purchase._


----------



## darrendodge

Skylab, just checking to see if you were ever able to get your hands on a Mapletree Ear+ HD Super II or any other from the line. I am strongly considering one to pair with my incoming T1 based on MacedonianHero's strong recommendation. Any thoughts on the subject? Is there one from your list that would make more sense for a T1 for just under 1K? Thanks again for all your posts. This site is much better because of them. Stumbling onto this tube amp review and your 37 portable amp roundup really opened my eyes.


----------



## Skylab

Sorry - I have not.


----------



## aspenx

Thank you Skylab again for all your hard work. I think I spend the most time reading your posts here...
   
  This is A LOT of information for a newbie like me to digest. Pardon me if it's obvious, but which of these amplifiers will be most suitable for "easy to drive" Audio Technica headphones? I find the output from my DAC/amp with my W1000x too grainy and the highs too hot and very much more congested than I remember how they sounded from a Luxman P-1u (which I can't afford  ).


----------



## Skylab

Thanks for the kind words AspenX.  Can you ask your question again in the W1000X thread, and provide a price range?  Thanks.


----------



## aspenx

Thanks for replying! I guess I'll bring the discussion to the W1000x appreciation thread.


----------



## RedBull

Thanks again Sky, for the review on Leben, this is what I have been waiting for before buying Leben.
  Think think think think!!! .... Buy .. not ... buy ... not ...


----------



## ztsen

Quote: 





redbull said:


> Thanks again Sky, for the review on Leben, this is what I have been waiting for before buying Leben.
> Think think think think!!! .... Buy .. not ... buy ... not ...


 


 Just buy it and think later. lol.


----------



## popa

I just wanted to say thank you skylab for your reviews. I did purchase the MP-301. My wallet wasn't very big and I was nervous about ordering a Qinpu amp. As stated in another place I am new to this but I do like the sound this amp puts out. You are doing a good service.


----------



## Skylab

My pleasure. I need to add the Woo Audio WA2 and WA6 to this soon...


----------



## RedBull

^ Yes, please Skylab, very eagerly see your comment on WA2 and WA6 soon  
   
  Thank you so much.


----------



## Skylab

Done


----------



## ztsen

Skylab, not even brief review for WA2? I am sure many will eaglerly to know the recipe it ranks above CSP2.


----------



## Skylab

Too busy for the moment, sorry - have 2 amps on loan coming, plus the HE-6...


----------



## RedBull

Quote: 





ztsen said:


> Just buy it and think later. lol.


 

 DONE!  ... buy ...
   
  Quote: 





			
				ztsen said:
			
		

> Skylab, not even brief review for WA2? I am sure many will eaglerly to know the recipe it ranks above CSP2.


 
   
  Let me answer this Skylab, ... MORE glass ... 
  
  Quote: 





skylab said:


> Done


 

 Ahhh, what a relieved, you SAVED my weekend, my 2-days-old-amp doesn't slide down from its current position    but quite sad my trusty DV337 keep sliding down tho.  Still kinda like it quite much


----------



## ouaiba

Fantastic work!!!
  I was looking at headphone amp and that is really helping me. After I read your review on the J. Sound Lab headphone I thought that could be good choice by it is not one of your favorite  ... I am more intrigued and tempted for a Decware Zen Select CSP-2 now. Will the Decware be better with my Sony CD-3000? I think it can be a good pick if I want to buy a high impedance headphone in the future.


----------



## Skylab

Thanks for the kind words.  Please make sure you read this part:
   
  Quote: 





> And note also that I ACTUALLY RECOMMEND and like EVERY ONE of these amps


 
   
  The JSoundLab is a better choice for the CD3000 than the CSP-2, on paper, and from the viewpoint on the sonics of each - but keep in mind I never tried that combination.  The CSP-2 is optimized for higher-impedance headphones.  It might be OK, even very good sounding, with the CD3000, but at 32 ohms it likely will not be ideal.  The transformer coupled JSoundLab will be a better match electrically, and IMHO, would give the CD3000 some needed added warmth.


----------



## ouaiba

Hi SkyLab, thanks for the advice ... I am agree about the CSP-2, not necessary a good choice for a 32 Ohm and it is getting expensive too. And what's about the Elekit TU882, AudioTailor Jade or Ming-Da MC-84C? 
 I really like the J.sound Lab thought but it is difficult to be sure without trying it. Beside you said tube-rolling does not give much difference in term of sound. By the way did you find the amp well build? what's about noise? hum?
  Thanks


----------



## Skylab

Sorry, that's a bit more than I have time for...I have to now gently suggest you do some additional reading on your own, especially of other people's comments as well as mine 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  But welcome to head-fi, and sorry for you wallet


----------



## ouaiba

I understand, thanks for your advice though


----------



## Skylab

I'm sorry, but I don't believe in the idea that there is a single, prevalent "tube sound signature", at all, and I think only people who have no experience with tube amps do believe that.  Tube amps sound as different from each other as SS amps do, and I have heard some SS amps that sounded more like some tube amps than some other tube amps did.  So I do not think you can use software to "reproduce the tube sound signature", because that only exists as a generic fictional concept, not a real phenomenon.
   
  JMO, of course, YMMV.


----------



## kostalex

x2


----------



## moodyrn

I've heard tons of software that tried to do this. All of them failed. This is something you just can't do with software. Some solid state amp manufacturers have also attempted this, and imo the sound came across as very warm and colored. It didn't sound anything like a tube amp. Also, I agree with Skylab. Tube amps sound as different from each other as ss amps do. Imo even more so than ss. I currently own two tube amps right now. I absolutely love both of them. They couldn't sound more different. Each one has a very unique and distinct sound.


----------



## Skylab

Your argument about this is not new - Bob Carver claimed 20+ years ago that he could design a SS amp that sounded like a tube amp.  Sure, you can model the distortion priducts - but the issue is you think that is what defines the sound - and I don't agree with that.
   
  But I would REALLY rather not muck up this thread with a lengthy discussion on this topic.  If you'd like to debate this, please take it to the Sound Science forum.
   
  Thanks.


----------



## RedBull

Never heard onced any SS amp that sounded like tube amp.  The closest is Apache, very very nice, but its still not tube, I don't mind to have one tho


----------



## sonq

Quote: 





skylab said:


> I'm sorry, but I don't believe in the idea that there is a single, prevalent "tube sound signature", at all, and I think only people who have no experience with tube amps do believe that.  Tube amps sound as different from each other as SS amps do, and I have heard some SS amps that sounded more like some tube amps than some other tube amps did.  So I do not think you can use software to "reproduce the tube sound signature", because that only exists as a generic fictional concept, not a real phenomenon.
> 
> JMO, of course, YMMV.


 
  Sorry to side track a little. I've been using the WA6 for over a week, it sounded a touch solid state in terms of speed and extension - just the texture and harmonics give a clue that it's a tube amp. In fact, it's a touch edgy on some tracks with female vocals or excessive hi-hats. Either that or my new HD800 is still un-seasoned with 30 hrs on it. 
   
  Is that the impression you get with your WA6?


----------



## Skylab

I do think that you may need more burn-in on your HD800.  But the WA6 is a pretty neutral sounding amp, yes.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote: 





sonq said:


> Sorry to side track a little. I've been using the WA6 for over a week, it sounded a touch solid state in terms of speed and extension - just the texture and harmonics give a clue that it's a tube amp. In fact, it's a touch edgy on some tracks with female vocals or excessive hi-hats. Either that or my new HD800 is still un-seasoned with 30 hrs on it.
> 
> Is that the impression you get with your WA6?


 

  
  Quote: 





skylab said:


> I do think that you may need more burn-in on your HD800.  But the WA6 is a pretty neutral sounding amp, yes.


 

 I agree the HD800 need more than 30 hours.  But don't forget, tube selection also affects the sound a lot with the WA6.  With an Amperex Bugle Boy GZ34 rectifier it sounds more "tubey" than with a Sovtek 5U4G for example which can sound a little grainy and plasticky in the highs in comparison.


----------



## Cya|\|

Could you please specify in the chart, if they're full valve or hybrid?


----------



## sonq

Guess I was expecting something a lot more euphonic. I had a lush Cayin HA-1A with Mullard CV4003 & CV4004 a year ago, so expected something around there. If the WA6 doesn't work out, I'll take a look at the Leben.
   
  Well recorded tracks sound quite nice but not forgiving of bright thin recordings compared to my speakers. Acoustic piano & guitar sounds amazingly real.


----------



## sonq

Quote: 





headphoneaddict said:


> I agree the HD800 need more than 30 hours.  But don't forget, tube selection also affects the sound a lot with the WA6.  With an Amperex Bugle Boy GZ34 rectifier it sounds more "tubey" than with a Sovtek 5U4G for example which can sound a little grainy and plasticky in the highs in comparison.


 

 Thanks for the tip on Bugle Boy.
   
  Just found this post by Hawkhead:
  http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/427799/the-woo-audio-6-se-my-impressions-updated/30


----------



## .Sup

Skylab was the WA2 you listened to the basic or maxed version?


----------



## Skylab

Basic WA2.


----------



## .Sup

thank you skylab. Oh one more question if you don't mind- have you tried WA2 with HE5-LE?


----------



## Ridy1

Hi Skylab i read a lot of your review & it's very helpful. After read this article http://www.headphonista.com/woo-audio-wa2/ ,make me confused.
  In this article darkvoice 339 in my opinion = lafigaro 339 which sound characteristic similar with darkvoice 337.
  This article contradicted with your review summary. Plz advise.


----------



## Skylab

Hi Ridy1 - I'm not sure I understand your question. If you are just wondering why that writer feels differently than I do,  this is no big surprise - people hear things differently.  Can you clarify?  Thanks!


----------



## Ridy1

Yes I agree with you, people hear thing differently.


----------



## voodoohao

I'm not sure if this has been discussed within the thread, but has anyone heard the Cayin HA-1A tube amplifier? How does it compare to the Darkvoice 337?


----------



## Skylab

I personally have never heard the Cayin.


----------



## voodoohao

okay thanks for the reply... anyone knows whether the Audio GD compass or Cambridge DACMagic would be a better DAC when complementing the Darkvoice 337? Thinking of getting either one of these, able to get them for roughly the same price used. Also hoping to use the DAC as a preamp for speakers so would be good if the quality of the DAC as a preamp is decent too


----------



## icefsh

Good job!
  I'm just seeking for a adequate amp can drive all my headphones (LCD-2, HD800, W1000 and K1000).  Here,I found that  Decware Mini-Torii seems has enough power to drive K1000, and is also good to LCD-2. How about W1000 and HD800? Does  Mini-Torii work well with them?
  Thanks


----------



## yifu

Boo, not a single amp from Little dot...


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





icefsh said:


> Good job!
> I'm just seeking for a adequate amp can drive all my headphones (LCD-2, HD800, W1000 and K1000).  Here,I found that  Decware Mini-Torii seems has enough power to drive K1000, and is also good to LCD-2. How about W1000 and HD800? Does  Mini-Torii work well with them?
> Thanks


 


  I got some hum from the Mini-Torri with the W1000 - due to the high-sensitivity, and the fact that the M-T's headphone jack is just the same as the speaker outs, wired to a headphone out.  You could solve this with a resistor, I think.  I have not tried it with the HD800.


----------



## icefsh

Quote: 





skylab said:


> I got some hum from the Mini-Torri with the W1000 - due to the high-sensitivity, and the fact that the M-T's headphone jack is just the same as the speaker outs, wired to a headphone out.  You could solve this with a resistor, I think.  I have not tried it with the HD800.


 
  Thanks for your comments. I think Leben CS300X may be better choice for me. But Pricejapan said CS300X is not available anymore, only CS300 now. Do you know what is the difference bettwen them except output power?


----------



## Skylab

Leben's website describes the differences well.  I have one of each though, and while the CS300XS is a little better, the CS300 is still excellent.


----------



## Ultrainferno

Skylab, did you ever have the opportunity to listen to the Hifiman EF-5?


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





ultrainferno said:


> Skylab, did you ever have the opportunity to listen to the Hifiman EF-5?


 


  No, I have not, sorry.


----------



## BmWr75

Skylab,
   
  Have you ever listened to a Bottlehead Crack amp with a Speedball upgrade?  If yes, your impressions?
   
  Thanks,
  Scott


----------



## Skylab

bmwr75 said:


> Skylab,
> 
> 
> Have you ever listened to a Bottlehead Crack amp with a Speedball upgrade?  If yes, your impressions?
> ...





No, I have not, althoh I would very much like to. Wish I had time to build a kit...


----------



## BmWr75

Bottlehead techs will build the amp for $150.  That adds up to an assembled cost of $369 + shipping.


----------



## tim_j_thomas

Have you had a chance to listen to Mapletree (MAD) amp?


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





bmwr75 said:


> Bottlehead techs will build the amp for $150.  That adds up to an assembled cost of $369 + shipping.


 

 Actually, I am thinking of getting one done this way: http://www.soundingenuity.com/custom_headphone_amp.htm
   

   


  Quote: 





tim_j_thomas said:


> Have you had a chance to listen to Mapletree (MAD) amp?


 

 I have not.


----------



## eclein

Skylab- I got a Musical Paradise MP-301 due in today. The price was right, your review helped and I just wanted to thank you before it arrived in case I hate it....LOL..
   No...seriously Thanks!!!
   Ed


----------



## tim_j_thomas

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 If you have an opportunity, I do not believe you would be disappointed.


----------



## Armaegis

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 That's pretty slick. I was thinking for my next build I'd put an amp into a small hard suitcase (or pelican case or something similar). Amp on one side, power supply on the other, cables and miscellany stashed to the side.


----------



## Ultrainferno

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


  What +- 500USD tube amp would you recommend for the Beyer DT99/600? I like warm laid back sound, it even may be colored by the amp, as long as it has seriously good bass.
  Thanks again!


----------



## Skylab

In that case, I'd recommend the MingDa MC84c-07. Warmish overall sound, and you an adjust it with tube rolling. Good sounding amp overall.


----------



## Ultrainferno

Thanks for the quick reply! I've shortlisted that one, are there any other ones maybe? (It does look hideous imo 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)


----------



## voodoohao

Hi I'm just enquiring about something strange I've experienced with my darkvoice 337 amp. When I first started using it the surface temperature of it was too hot to touch for more than a few seconds, and I've read around and this is the norm. However recently the entire amp runs less hot than the past, and the right surface is noticeably less hot than the left, to the touch. Sound quality has no changes though, at least I can't tell. Is there anything wrong with the amp? Slightly worried cuz I bought it used one month ago and I'm not sure how old it is


----------



## Jian

How didI miss this post? Anyway, what a nice read.


----------



## wasp131

@ voodoohao.
   
  I notice the same thing with my 337.
  different tubes don't seem to make any difference,sometimes left is hotter and vice versa,
  as you say it doesn't seem to affect the sound quality.
  my dv is about 18mths old now and has always been this way from new.
  I haven't been too worried about it until a month or so back when i read somebody had blown the resistors on the SE version,
  which is where most of the heat appears to emanate from on mine.
  As this is my first tube amp ,i'm hoping some of the more experienced users could shed some light on whether this is normal behaviour or not.


----------



## voodoohao

Yup would really like someone who have experience on this issue to share any knowledge, because I'm afraid one of the resistors might be blown causing a lack of current on one side, which then results in it being less hot? I'm just making wild guesses though...just worried that it might become a problem in the future


----------



## RedBull

I would think if something is broken inside the sound would be affected, no?


----------



## musedesign

Skylab, You are amazing!  Just found your "A ranking of 29 tube and tube/hybrid headphone amps", what a fantastic resource!
   
  I have ordered HD650s, looking for an inexpensive (around $300?) tube amp/DAC, can you make a recommendation?
   
  Thank you!


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





musedesign said:


> Skylab, You are amazing!  Just found your "A ranking of 29 tube and tube/hybrid headphone amps", what a fantastic resource!
> 
> I have ordered HD650s, looking for an inexpensive (around $300?) tube amp/DAC, can you make a recommendation?
> 
> Thank you!


 


  Thanks.  I cannot really make a recommendation for you since I have not owned HD650's in 3+ years.  But I will say that there are not many choices for a tube amp/DAC combo in that price range.  I would recommend getting a Woo WA3 or a Schiit Valhalla, perhaps, and then getting a DAC later.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Or, you could get a NuForce μDAC-2.  The headamp built into it works quite well for low impedance headphones and while it's not the ideal amp for the HD-600/650, it performs very well as a USB DAC/amp for 120 bux.


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> Or, you could get a NuForce μDAC-2.  The headamp built into it works quite well for low impedance headphones and while it's not the ideal amp for the HD-600/650, it performs very well as a USB DAC/amp for 120 bux.


 


  Indeed, that plus one of the less expensive tube amps here might make a nice combo.


----------



## Gorthon

I personnaly have not head it with the HD650, but what about the HifiMan EF2A?  It is an amp that is part of this review as well.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Agreed, I find the uDAC-2 RCA line-outputs to match my Pico DAC-only's RCA output, both beating my Headroom Micro DAC line-out feeding a desktop amp.  It's a noticeable step up from the original uDAC line-out and headphone amp which was more forward, less spacious, and slightly rolled off.  The uDAC-2 drives the HD600 decently, but I'd worry it's not nearly enough power for the HD650.  Sometimes I wish I still had a pair of 650's just for testing purposes.  
   
  It's still worth a try, but among tube amps I found the uDAC-2 feeding the head-direct EF2 amp to work better with HD600 than the uDAC-2 alone (I would ignore the EF2 built-in DAC).  I also think the uDAC-2 would pair very well as a DAC feeding the Schitt Valhalla, an amp that I tried out with HD650 at RMAF last fall.  I've only heard a few amps that I thought made me like the HD650 as much as the HD600, and the Zana Deux was one, the Valhalla is another.  But this stretches the budget a bit more than uDAC-2 > EF2.  Other choices in this budget for tubes are uDAC-2 feeding a used EF1 or Cavalli CTH, or a used Dark Voice 336i.  With 300ohm HD600 the DV336i with good tubes beat the other amps, but the others were still very good with HD600 and all beat the 336i with low impedance phones.  This covers budget tube amps that I've tried that worked well with HD600.  i wish I could say HD650 too, but I didn't get to try them.
   
  IF the price range is really $300, he needs more options for DAC/amp combo unit, and it doesn't have to be tubes - then a Travagans White or a used Meier 3MOVE would be something that would likely have enough juice for the HD650.  The 3MOVE's power really surprised me with the HD600, especially with a 12v PSU, and seemed to offer a similar amount of power to some cheaper desktop amps like the White.  These two might be enough for the HD650 too.  
   
  But, none of these DAC/amps above had a DAC as good as the DAC in the uDAC or uDAC-2.  So, another SS option is having the uDAC-2 feeding the Travagans Red instead of the White - there is more room in the Red than White for better opamps like a pair of OPA627 or AD743, and it can drive speakers if needed.  If the budget can be stretched a little more, and SS is okay, the Nuforce HDP pairs very well with my HD600 and has gobs of power with them, and I believe it's slightly aggressive nature would pair well with the HD650 too, as it does with the LCD-2.  It has a nice 24/96 USB DAC, plus optical, coax digital, and analog inputs.  If USB input-only is good enough, there is the Nuforce HD which is even cheaper but without all the other inputs.


----------



## musedesign

I love Head-Fi !
   
  Every time I ask a question, I am so impressed by the wealth of knowledge  !
   
  Now I have plenty of reading material for the next couple of days as I digest the responses, Thank you!


----------



## ptrok

Skylab, I was wondering if you have had any experience with the Decware Taboo. I know you are a fond of the MiniTorii and the CSP2 so I was wondering how the Taboo compared to those two amps.


----------



## Skylab

Sorry, but I have not heard the Taboo.


----------



## leesure

Hi Sylab,

Have you tried running orthos fro. The speaker taps of the Ming-Da? The specs say it delivers 5watts to the speaker terminals. Not sure what kind of power they deliver to the HP jack...do u know?


----------



## Skylab

Unfortunately, I sold the Ming Da long before getting any orthos.


----------



## moodyrn

I wish I had hung on to mine long enough to try with the orthos I've had. This is just a guess, but I remember looking on the inside of the one I had, and I could find any resistors on the headphone output. The only thing I saw separating the headphone out and the speaker out were wires and the headphone/speaker switch. It's one of the most powerful amps I've ever owned, so I wouldn't be surprised if those same five watts were delivered to the headphone out as well. But there may have been a resistor of some kind that I couldn't see. It would be interesting to see what that amp would do with some of the current orthos. But at least you know you get 5 watts from the speaker outs.


----------



## BmWr75

I'm on the LCD-2 waiting list, been a month now.  Will let you know how they sound with the Ming Da when I get them.


----------



## kwkarth

Is the Ming Da actually 5W into any impedance?  I highly doubt it.  Typically, an amp that delivers 10W into an 8 ohm speaker will only be bale to deliver about 0.7W into a 120 ohm load, and a little over 1.5W into a 50 ohm load.


----------



## moodyrn

I don't think anyone claimed 5 watts into any impedance, as the ming da is rated at 5 watts into 4 to 8 ohms. But the headphone out may be powerful enough to drive orthos other than the HE-6. It is transformer coupled and may have the juice to do it for low impedance, inefficiennt orthos(again, other than the he-6).


----------



## Skylab

Kevin, I am not sure exactly how the Ming-Da is wired, but if its headphone out uses a 32 ohm secondary winding from the output transformer, isn't it possible it would deliver more power into 50 ohms, via the headphone out, than in your example?


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





moodyrn said:


> I don't think anyone claimed 5 watts into any impedance, as the ming da is rated at 5 watts into 4 to 8 ohms. But the headphone out may be powerful enough to drive orthos other than the HE-6. It is transformer coupled and may have the juice to do it for low impedance, inefficiennt orthos(again, other than the he-6).


 
  Even 1W is more power than 90% of all headamps on the market.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Kevin, I am not sure exactly how the Ming-Da is wired, but if its headphone out uses a 32 ohm secondary winding from the output transformer, isn't it possible it would deliver more power into 50 ohms, via the headphone out, than in your example?


 


  Absolutely, in that configuration it would probably do a solid 3+ watts into 50 ohms.  Very nice!


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> Absolutely, in that configuration it would probably do a solid 3+ watts into 50 ohms.  Very nice!


 


  OK thanks Kevin - that is what I thought, just wanted to make sure my understanding was correct.  Again, I am NOT sure if the Ming-Da is wired that way or not, just that it's transformer-coupled; it is of course possible that it's using the same windings for the speakers and headphones, in which case your original math would hold.
   
  It's a shame this sort of thing isn't better documented by the makers of amps.  The Leben uses a 32 ohm secondary winding for it's headphone out, but that information was only made available after quizzing Leben about it


----------



## moodyrn

I wish I knew for sure, I might would pick up another one. I kinda hate I sold mine now. It might just be a good budget amp for most orthos.


----------



## leesure

Well...I asked because there's one for sale in the FS forum and might give it a go for my LCD-2s


----------



## moodyrn

If you don't mind the scratch, I'd say go for it. It competes nicely with amps beyond it's price point. IMO of course.


----------



## leesure

The scratch doesn't bother me...I'm just looking for something tubey sounding to complement the Woo 6SE that can drive orthos.


----------



## Skylab

I would think it could handle the LCD-2 fine in terms of power.  The HE-6, maybe not.


----------



## moodyrn

If you decide to get it, let us know how it compares to the woo.


----------



## burgunder

I'm enjoying John Scofield via the Ming Da and K340 right now, I just sent an email to Ming Da asking what the output impedance on the headphone output is. Let's see if they answer, they were kind enough to send me the schematic earlier, so it's likely that they will answer.


----------



## burgunder

I just got this reply form Ming Da
   
  "Just confirmed with my technician, he said that the output impedance of the headphone of MC84-C07 is 16~32ohm.
 If you have any questions, please do not hesitate to ask us."
   
  Their customer service is excellent.


----------



## leesure

Please excuse my electrical ignorance, but what does that tell me about the power at the HP tap and/or ability to drive the LCD-2's?
   
  Thanks.


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





leesure said:


> Please excuse my electrical ignorance, but what does that tell me about the power at the HP tap and/or ability to drive the LCD-2's?
> 
> Thanks.


 

 Unfortunately, it tells us nothing definitive.  What would be interesting to know is how exactly the headphone tap is derived - meaning is it a simple switch from the same output transformer windings that feed the speakers?  Or does it use a separate, secondary 32 ohm winding?


----------



## burgunder

My guess is that it means that the headphone output is using a 16 ohm winding, a lot of output transformers have 4-8-16 ohm windings so my guess is that they used the last for the headphones. But shoot them a mail, as I said they have been very friendly sofar. Or perhaps they will even chime in here as I sent them a link  to this thread.


----------



## musedesign

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Thanks.  I cannot really make a recommendation for you since I have not owned HD650's in 3+ years.  But I will say that there are not many choices for a tube amp/DAC combo in that price range.  I would recommend getting a Woo WA3 or a Schiit Valhalla, perhaps, and then getting a DAC later.


 
   
  Skylab, This thread has become my nightly reading!  Thank you for the wonderful work.
   
  Amongst the two amps below, would the Schiit Valhalla still be your recommendation?  The 6AS7G seems like such a cool tube!
   
  AudioTailor Jade $350
  Black DV 336SE $329
   
  I have also sent an email to Musical Paradise about the release of the Musical Paradise MP301 MKII
   
  Thanks!
   
  -Mark


----------



## Skylab

I am unsure of the current availability of the AudioTailor. 
   
  The DV336SE is a warmer sounding amp than the Valhalla.  And you cannot toll tubes in the Valhalla.  So you should consider that.
   
  I am also eagerly awaiting the MP301 Mk II.  Promises some nice upgrades over the Mk I.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote: 





skylab said:


> I am unsure of the current availability of the AudioTailor.
> 
> The DV336SE is a warmer sounding amp than the Valhalla.  And you cannot toll tubes in the Valhalla.  So you should consider that.
> 
> I am also eagerly awaiting the MP301 Mk II.  Promises some nice upgrades over the Mk I.


 

 Maybe that's why I liked the HD650 on the Valhalla at RMAF 2010 more than I ever did with my DV336i...


----------



## Skylab

Yeah, given that the HD650 don't need warming up at all, that would make a lot of sense!


----------



## musedesign

Quote:


musedesign said:


> Skylab, This thread has become my nightly reading!  Thank you for the wonderful work.
> 
> Amongst the two amps below, would the Schiit Valhalla still be your recommendation?  The 6AS7G seems like such a cool tube!
> 
> ...


 
  Thank you, Skylab and HeadphoneAddict,
   
    I have contacted Audio Tailor and they say the Jade is available for $330 shipped with a few options:
   
  [size=x-small]neutrik black Jack.  - Upgrade cost US$12
  
 Coupling Cap  :  MIT PPMFX or Infinite is available for upgrade .  Upgrade cost US$40 for Infinite , US$25 for MIT PPMFX.
  
 Alps 27mm Volumn : US$15 , Composite teflon sockets US$10 (Blue color) [/size]
   
Sounds like the DV336i is not the best choice.  What do you think, order the Jade? order the Valhalla?, Wait for the Musical Paradise MP301?  I would appreciate recommendations at the $350 price point.
   
Thank you!
   
-Mark


----------



## Skylab

Well, if the Jade is still in production, i think that would be my personal choice. If you have the money, I wouldn't wait for something not in production


----------



## daigo

Being that I've enjoyed my set up for over six months now, I think the Elekit TU-882 is a very nice complement with the HD650.  Plenty of power to drive them at the high impedance setting of the amp, great depth of soundstage and average width, great bass, clear highs, all without further coloration of the mids.  Even after our recent head-fi meet up here in the Bay Area where I was able to listen to a lot of very good headphones and set ups, I realize I'm happy enough with my desktop set up to instead invest in some IEM's as my next audio purchase.  If you can get a chance to try the combination, I think you will be pleasantly surprised with how well the combination works together. 
   
  I do have to say that I've replaced the coupling capacitors on my TU-882 with mundorf silver/oils which helped improve the performance in higher frequencies.


----------



## musedesign

Quote:


daigo said:


> Being that I've enjoyed my set up for over six months now, I think the Elekit TU-882 is a very nice complement with the HD650.  Plenty of power to drive them at the high impedance setting of the amp, great depth of soundstage and average width, great bass, clear highs, all without further coloration of the mids.  Even after our recent head-fi meet up here in the Bay Area where I was able to listen to a lot of very good headphones and set ups, I realize I'm happy enough with my desktop set up to instead invest in some IEM's as my next audio purchase.  If you can get a chance to try the combination, I think you will be pleasantly surprised with how well the combination works together.
> 
> I do have to say that I've replaced the coupling capacitors on my TU-882 with mundorf silver/oils which helped improve the performance in higher frequencies.


 
  Hi Daigo,
    Thank you for the message.  I was so sorry I missed the audio meet in the Bay Area, didn't hear about it until after.  Skylab ranks the Elekit the highest for the less expensive tube amps.  I am now realizing that by the time I add the options to the Jade, I am almost at the same cost as the Elekit.  Thank you for the recommendation!
   
  -Mark


----------



## jeust0999

The two amps that have really caught my interest are the Elekit TU882 and the Decware CSP2.
   
  I really enjoyed the review of the TU882 and it seems to be what I'm looking for. Is the Elekit  "tubey" and "lush", meanwhile the Decware, being a more refined product, brings it to another level with transparency and soundstage? Is the Elekit even competent to the Decware?
   
  The primary headphones would be a pair of Beyer T1's.
   
  Thanks for all of the reviews.


----------



## musedesign

Looks like the Musical Paradise MP-301 MK2 will be on pre sale Monday! 
   
  Email from Garry at Musical Paradise:
  "I will upload the details of the MK2 to the website on Monday. There will be a pre-order sale.
   
  Thanks,
  Garry"


----------



## Skylab

For the T1, I would absolutely go with the Decware. That's a great combo.


----------



## leesure

Garry didn't intimate when it would ship, did he?


----------



## jeust0999

Yeah, the CSP2+ is the amp I truly want.
   
  And of course, your recommendation is only more incentive. I have a KICAS Caliente now, which you also reviewed.
   
  Thanks, Skylab.


----------



## Vince325

Skylab thanks for all the knowledge you bring to this forum. I recently got a new Rotel Receiver for my home theater and  had been thinking about getting a headphone amp for my 701s but couldn't pull the trigger. It seems now I'm forced too as it has no headphone output. So my question is this Could you place these in order for my cans and why. My budget would be 1200.00 but love a value and tube rolling sounds very cool. Thanks in advance
   
  System Rotel 1560, oppo BDP-83
   
  Woo ?
  Schiit
  Decware


----------



## Skylab

I have not owned the K701 in a very long time, but given their low impedance, a Woo Audio WA6 or 6SE is a good choice.  You need a transformer coupled tube  amp to get the best from the K701.


----------



## musedesign

Quote:


musedesign said:


> Looks like the Musical Paradise MP-301 MK2 will be on pre sale Monday!
> 
> Email from Garry at Musical Paradise:
> "I will upload the details of the MK2 to the website on Monday. There will be a pre-order sale.
> ...


 
http://www.musicalparadise.ca/mp/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=6&products_id=75&zenid=55e3c74f9dd3fdd3313fce2474c86b50
   
  Looks like Garry uploaded the information about the MP-301 MK2, $247.00, looks like a beauty!


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





musedesign said:


> Quote:
> http://www.musicalparadise.ca/mp/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=6&products_id=75&zenid=55e3c74f9dd3fdd3313fce2474c86b50
> 
> Looks like Garry uploaded the information about the MP-301 MK2, $247.00, looks like a beauty!


 

 That is a sweet looking amp!!


----------



## Skylab

Really looking forward to testing it. EL34's plus 6SJ7's - liking that tube combo, at least on paper. I wonder if the 6SJ7's are strapped triode like in the DV337.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Really looking forward to testing it. EL34's plus 6SJ7's - liking that tube combo, at least on paper. I wonder if the 6SJ7's are strapped triode like in the DV337.


 
   
  Maybe it is being used as a pentode and that's why some negative feedback is used???


----------



## coconutboy

Thanks for this thread Skylab. Really appreciate the head-fiers who take the time to compile these lists and there's a lot of great follow-up posts in this thread as well (mp-301 mk2 looks pretty sweet!).  Also, in addition to your quote below, I think I read elsewhere that you stated head-fi newbies tend to over-think their first budget purchases versus just jumping on any one of the many quality amps. That sound about right?   It's about time for me to buy my first amp and I could use a veteran's eye..err, ear.  
   
  Likewise, If my amp budget is a mere ~$200-450-ish, should I just get my short list together and buy? I'll be using Sennheiser 600s w/ a wide variety of lossless recordings of every genre; funk, classical, country, punk, jazz, electro, piano, rap, blues etc. I'm from a family of musicians and value depth and width in my soundstage for accurate instrument placement as well as tonal quality. While I don't demand clinical accuracy from my amp, I would definitely prefer that versus the falsified sound of an overly warm tube. Should I be mildly picky, or just roll the dice given my meager budget?
   
  Thanks in advance for any advice peeps.
   
  Quote: 





skylab said:


> I should also point out that, IMO, the amps ranked from #5 on down are all VERY close in terms of sound quality. From 6 up, some significant jumps begin to occur.


----------



## Ultrainferno

Hi Skylab & everyone
   
  would you recommend the Darkvoice 337/Lafigaro 339 for higher impedance phones like senns 600/650 and 600ohm Beyers?
  It is OTL so it should be ok but I can remember having read something that it sounds better with low impedance phones, bizar.
   
  I'm hoping the 339 is as warm as you described the 337 in one of your other threads. I understood they produce quite some bass, I'm looking forward to that.
   
  Does anyone by chance happe to know the mesurements for these amps, I can't seem to find them online.
  Thanks again


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> Maybe it is being used as a pentode and that's why some negative feedback is used???


 

 Ahhh, could be.  It is, after all, a pentode   I guess we shall see.  My review loaner will be here in a couple weeks, according to Garry from MP.
   


  Quote: 





coconutboy said:


> Thanks for this thread Skylab. Really appreciate the head-fiers who take the time to compile these lists and there's a lot of great follow-up posts in this thread as well (mp-301 mk2 looks pretty sweet!).  Also, in addition to your quote below, I think I read elsewhere that you stated head-fi newbies tend to over-think their first budget purchases versus just jumping on any one of the many quality amps. That sound about right?   It's about time for me to buy my first amp and I could use a veteran's eye..err, ear.
> 
> Likewise, If my amp budget is a mere ~$200-450-ish, should I just get my short list together and buy? I'll be using Sennheiser 600s w/ a wide variety of lossless recordings of every genre; funk, classical, country, punk, jazz, electro, piano, rap, blues etc. I'm from a family of musicians and value depth and width in my soundstage for accurate instrument placement as well as tonal quality. While I don't demand clinical accuracy from my amp, I would definitely prefer that versus the falsified sound of an overly warm tube. Should I be mildly picky, or just roll the dice given my meager budget?
> 
> Thanks in advance for any advice peeps.


 
   
  Thanks for the kind words.  Indeed, I would just do some reading, and then take the plunge.  You might consider buying used, as that way you can basically try one risk-free, as you are likely to be able to sell if for at least close to what you bought it for.  Hint:  A Woo WA3 used would be in that price range and would be nice with the HD600 


  Quote: 





ultrainferno said:


> Hi Skylab & everyone
> 
> would you recommend the Darkvoice 337/Lafigaro 339 for higher impedance phones like senns 600/650 and 600ohm Beyers?
> It is OTL so it should be ok but I can remember having read something that it sounds better with low impedance phones, bizar.
> ...


 


  Yes, at least the DV337 is good with the high-impeadance cans.  I've never heard the 339, but it also should be, since it's based on the same design as the 337.


----------



## Wedge

Skylab, I was curious, in your review of the Isabella, you stated that it was the best headphone amp and preamp that you had in your home, however you ranked it 2 as opposed to the Leben, would you say that the Leben is the best headphone amp that you have had in your home, now?


----------



## Skylab

Yes, I would indeed say that about the Leben. You have to look at WHEN I made the reviews, in addition to what I said for it to make any sense


----------



## Wedge

Skylab, have you ever had a chance to hear the Isabellina HPA/DAC, WA-22, or WA-5?  If you have, was it long enough to render a good judgement?


----------



## jdmeyers

Thanks, Slylab, for this great effort!


----------



## jeust0999

Yeah, thanks a lot Skylab.
   
  I've been doing a lot of research for my first tube amp, and this is definitely an invaluable source.


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





wedge said:


> Skylab, have you ever had a chance to hear the Isabellina HPA/DAC, WA-22, or WA-5?  If you have, was it long enough to render a good judgement?


 


  I have not.
   
  Thanks for the kind words, folks!


----------



## Wedge

Thank you Skylab.


----------



## FrankWong

This has probably been mentioned somewhere in this thread but what about all the Little Dot tube amps?


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





frankwong said:


> This has probably been mentioned somewhere in this thread but what about all the Little Dot tube amps?


 


  I have never been offered a loaner to review (note that I only accept loaners from the maker, not from individuals).


----------



## Graphicism

Nice review Skylab. This may be unfounded but I'm wondering are you not simply listening to the tubes more so than the actual amp, thus different tubes equal a different sounding amp? I suppose the question would then be what are the better tube configurations and what amps best support these tubes?
   
  I've owned both a Singlepower PPX3 SLAM and currently a Darkvoice 336i and no matter what tubes I tried the Singlepower fell short of the sound quality I get from the albeit cheaper Darkvoice.


----------



## Skylab

When you are listening to a tube amp, you are listening to the tube, the circuit, and the other parts. So the tubes matter, but so does the circuit they are used in, for sure.

The DV336 is a really nice sounding amp, with high impedance, high sensitivity headphones. No doubt.


----------



## log0

Hey Rob
  Just curious, what source do you typically listen to your tube amps with?  Computer based?


----------



## sphinxvc

Pacific Valve is now offering the Ming Da MC 84 C07 in an "upgraded" configuration for $524 which includes  2X Mullard EL84 Tubes and 2X Sovtek 12AX7LPS tubes.  Any experience w/ these tubes?  If so, does it sound like a good deal for $110 extra?
   
  Wondering if the Ming Da or the Woo 6 would be the best match for my K701s.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote: 





skylab said:


> When you are listening to a tube amp, you are listening to the tube, the circuit, and the other parts. So the tubes matter, but so does the circuit they are used in, for sure.
> 
> The DV336 is a really nice sounding amp, with high impedance, high sensitivity headphones. No doubt.


 

 While my DV336i was best with my HD600, it was still pretty good with my Denon D2000 and Ultrasone Edition 9 headphones.  Although not as good with Grado RS-1 it wasn't bad, although it sounded thin and bass-lite with K701 and W5000.


----------



## googleli

WOOT!  My amp ranks first on Skylab's list! Yay!


----------



## BmWr75

Quote: 





sphinxvc said:


> Skylab - Pacific Valve is now offering the Ming Da MC 84 C07 in an "upgraded" configuration for $524 which includes  2X Mullard EL84 Tubes and 2X Sovtek 12AX7LPS tubes.  Any experience w/ these tubes?  If so, does it sound like a good deal for $110 extra?
> 
> Wondering if the Ming Da or the Woo 6 would be the best match for my K701s.


 
   
  Know you didn't pose this question to me, but I own the amp in Ming Da amp in question.  Use it mainly with high impedance phones and am very happy with it.  Also own K702s, will give the combo a listen today and report back here.
   
  However, if you can wait a little while......stay tuned for Skylab's review of this amp for 1/2 the $$.
   
http://www.musicalparadise.ca/mp/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=75


----------



## log0

Quote: 





bmwr75 said:


> Know you didn't pose this question to me, but I own the amp in Ming Da amp in question.  Use it mainly with high impedance phones and am very happy with it.  Also own K702s, will give the combo a listen today and report back here.
> 
> However, if you can wait a little while......stay tuned for Skylab's review of this amp for 1/2 the $$.
> 
> http://www.musicalparadise.ca/mp/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=75


 


  Very nice looking amp, from the pictures it seems to be of sturdy construction. Nice low price.


----------



## sphinxvc

Quote:


bmwr75 said:


> Know you didn't pose this question to me, but I own the amp in Ming Da amp in question.  Use it mainly with high impedance phones and am very happy with it.  Also own K702s, will give the combo a listen today and report back here.
> 
> However, if you can wait a little while......stay tuned for Skylab's review of this amp for 1/2 the $$.
> 
> http://www.musicalparadise.ca/mp/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=75


 

 Cool - looking forward to your impressions.  Very interested in the headroom and any hum you may hear.  Do you have the version w/ upgraded tubes?


----------



## blitz-dice

another epic thread, thanks! im almost done in my (trans)portable journey, and im starting to build my home rig, big help!


----------



## BmWr75

The Ming Da uses uses output transformers, so is compatible with low impedance HPs.  K701/702s are 62 ohms.  I may be able to hear the slightest of hum in the K702s, but I have to strain to hear it, could be my imagination or the fluorescent lights in my basement.  Certainly not an issue when listening to music.  I know what hum sounds like, it is bad on my Bottlehead Crack OTL (no output transformers) amp with low impedance phones.  
   
  The Ming Da amp puts out about 6 watts, so there is power a-plenty.  I've read it puts out the 6 watts from the speaker outs and the HP outs, but cannot verify this.
   
  I don't even remember what the stock Chinese tubes sounded like in this amp.  Replaced them nearly immediately with reissue Gold Lion EL-84 power tubes and am running organ-pull 1950-1960s vintage Baldwin (Sylvania) black plate 12AX7s small signal tubes.
   
  The Gold Lion's run $60 + shipping for a matched pair and decent NOS/used 12AX7s can be had for $25 a piece most days.  So, $110 for the upgraded tubes is not a bad deal probably.  Or, you could get the amp with the stock tubes and take the $110 and buy some better tubes, then you will still have the stock tubes in an emergency.


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





log0 said:


> Hey Rob
> Just curious, what source do you typically listen to your tube amps with?  Computer based?


 
   
  Depends what you mean by "computer based".  I use an external high end DAC (Audio By VanAlstine), which is fed via either an Oppo universal player or via a iPod Classic with Lossless files whose digital output is extracted by a Wadia iTransport and then sent to the DAC.  And then I also listen via my high-end vinyl rig.


----------



## fatcat28037

Skylab, Once again you have added immeasurable to the value of our forum, thank you.


----------



## melomaniac

great thread still... glad it keeps going
  
  Quote: 





skylab said:


> IMO, the amps ranked from #5 on down are all VERY close in terms of sound quality. From 6 up, some significant jumps begin to occur.


 

  although I appreciate this (seems like a power law kind of distribution, huh?) I would like to note that as owner of two of the also-rans on this list here, they sound to me very different from one another - in good ways


----------



## kokushu

Skylab you should do something similar to this ranking for DAC.  Is your current dac (Audio By VanAlstine) is the best dac you heard?  Is the leben cs 300xs still the best amp for its price?  Thank you for your work I really enjoy reading it and use it as a guide.


----------



## Fantoon

Can we expect a comprehensive review of the Trafomatic Experience Head One?


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





kokushu said:


> Skylab you should do something similar to this ranking for DAC.  Is your current dac (Audio By VanAlstine) is the best dac you heard?  Is the leben cs 300xs still the best amp for its price?  Thank you for your work I really enjoy reading it and use it as a guide.


 

 I may try this at some point, although I have only reviewed 3 DACs so far, so I have a long way to go   Yes, the AVA DAC is the best I personally have heard.  It's outstanding, and given the performance, it's a bargain at it's price.  And yes, the Leben is still my favorite amp.  Every night I listen to the Leben and the Sony R10, and think what a lucky guy I am 
   


  Quote: 





fantoon said:


> Can we expect a comprehensive review of the Trafomatic Experience Head One?


 

 I need to do that.  It is a TERRIFIC amp, with a lot of flexibility, and quite a bit of drive capability.


----------



## kokushu

Quote: 





skylab said:


> I may try this at some point, although I have only reviewed 3 DACs so far, so I have a long way to go   Yes, the AVA DAC is the best I personally have heard.  It's outstanding, and given the performance, it's a bargain at it's price.  And yes, the Leben is still my favorite amp.  Every night I listen to the Leben and the Sony R10, and think what a lucky guy I am


 
   
  Leben and the R10; you lucky person lol.  I have to settle for wa6 and lcd2 to listen to before I go to sleep.  I would love to get the leben but I need to know that is the best amp at that price currently before committing 3000k+ to it.


----------



## Fantoon

Flexibility, sounds interesting, would you like to elaborate?
  
  Quote: 





skylab said:


> I may try this at some point, although I have only reviewed 3 DACs so far, so I have a long way to go   Yes, the AVA DAC is the best I personally have heard.  It's outstanding, and given the performance, it's a bargain at it's price.  And yes, the Leben is still my favorite amp.  Every night I listen to the Leben and the Sony R10, and think what a lucky guy I am
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Skylab

The flexibility is in that it is transformer coupled and has an impedance selector switch for good matching.


----------



## googleli

Skylab, I always wondered but I just want to confirm- the impedance selector on the Leben only applies to the speaker connection, am I correct?


----------



## music_man

i wonder what would happen if he threw in apex pinnacle,luxman p1u.rsa apache and ear hp4. also of intrest would be the (cullen) gcha,not the ps audio. i understand no one can possibly review every amp. i would however put the aformentioned pretty high up the list. probably the top spots maybe with one taking the crown from his #1 choice. the thing is they are all different even at the high end. i couldn't put the ones i just listed in order. at that level it transcends mere simplicity. like what is better a van gogh or a picasso?


----------



## Skylab

@Googlie, yes, the Leben's switch applies only to the speaker taps.

@MusicMan - you suggested several amps there that are solid state - I have a separate thread for SS amps, which includes the RSA Apache.


----------



## googleli

Dude, I just got a quad set of used 50's Mullard EL84s today at quite a bargain. The bass is so much fuller now and the Leben with these Mullard vintage power tubes and the Amperex long plate D-getter 12AX7s sounds really good.


----------



## BmWr75

Skylab, guess I'm too stupid to find your SS amp review thread in this forum.  Would you mind providing a link to it.
   
  EDIT - found it.
   
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/403237/review-summary-index-22-solid-state-home-headphone-amps


----------



## InnerSpace

Quote: 





kokushu said:


> ...  I would love to get the leben but I need to know that is the best amp at that price ...


 

 I may or may not have heard as many amps as other members (but I'm sure it's ballpark) and I would say the Leben is easily the best amp at its price, and one of the best irrespective of price.  It does everything at least 95% as well as the best, and those that hit 98% on some parameters fall short on others, revealing the Leben's great balance of virtues.  Plus - and I hate to use untechnical words, but alternatives won't suffice - the Leben has "charm" in abundance, such that it's always a pleasure to hear.


----------



## Double F

I had the Leben for several months.  It's performance was very good with the LCD-2, however, since I only used it as a head amp I did not feel it was worth it.  My version was the Japanese 300xs.  There has been speculation that Leben made some adjustments to the gain with the xs version that adversely affected it's performance with the LCD-2.


----------



## music_man

my bad. duh. i don't know why i mentioned ss amps in a tube thread. on the other hand, what i mentioned was my list of my top picks tube and ss. the nice thing is one of the ss amps in the list was only $1,400(secret you cannot get one anymore).
   
  i have to go read your ss thread. i am already guessing the apache is at the top 
   
  edit: skylab, i was just wondering. are your darth's and manufaktur both dt-770 drivers? they both seem to be closed(well darths are). what impedance are yours? sorry to go ot. i was just surprised you are using those headphones with the apache and leben. well, they are darn good headphones if i must say so myself. i was going to trade my darths for stock dt880-pro yesterday but i thought twice.


----------



## danne

Does the Leben pair well with the HD 800?


----------



## InnerSpace

Quote: 





danne said:


> Does the Leben pair well with the HD 800?


 

 In my opinion it's a wonderful match.


----------



## shaunybaby

Im kind of new to this forum and i was wondering if anyone knows a good tube amp that will pair well with hd 650s?

 gonna start reading the reviews now, thanks skylab.


----------



## Skylab

My DT770 Manufacture and Darths are both 600 ohm drivers.  I still like both, but rarely use either - I just have a bunch of headphones now (HE-6, LCD-2, T1, HD800, R10, Ed 8, D7000, DX1000, Chroma MD1, etc etc) that are better


----------



## HiGHFLYiN9

Wow, the list continues to expand, what an impressive array of reviews!!  Any plans on adding the Bottlehead S.E.X., Crack and upcoming Smack to the list? Owners bias probably, but I think the Bottlehead Stuff is pretty excellent sounding; although I kinda tailored them to my own liking.


----------



## Armaegis

Quote: 





highflyin9 said:


> Wow, the list continues to expand, what an impressive array of reviews!!  Any plans on adding the Bottlehead S.E.X., Crack and upcoming Smack to the list? Owners bias probably, but I think the Bottlehead Stuff is pretty excellent sounding; although I kinda tailored them to my own liking.


 

 Very nice. Definitely better than my build which I cranked into one night. The only mod I did was to remove the 120ohm headphone resistors so the jack could be used as a switch for the speakers (turn off speakers when headphones plugged in). I put the resistors into a short adapter cable for regular headphone use. The noise is way too high without it.


----------



## estreeter

I may be guilty of the same approach I used with Rob's portable amps thread, but I zeroed in on the amps in the top 5 below a certain price point (in this case, $1000), read a couple of the older threads and picked a 'winner' based on what Rob said about the Top 5 being the area where marked changes between amps really started to appear for him. Given that I dont look like having $3500+, the Leben wont be gracing my bedside table 
   
  It would appeat that the WA6 now ships with the highly vaunted 'pseudo-dual' power supply which was previously an option. At 620 USD, I have to ask if this makes it the best *bang-for-buck* of the top 5 (particularly as none of my headphones are high-impedance/high-sensitivity) ? You can drive most Grados from my D4 and my AD900s are similarly easy to power.
   
  Of course, I will now resist the urge to buy it, but it would be great to know for, er, reference purposes 
   
  Thanks,
   
  estreeter


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





highflyin9 said:


> Wow, the list continues to expand, what an impressive array of reviews!!  Any plans on adding the Bottlehead S.E.X., Crack and upcoming Smack to the list? Owners bias probably, but I think the Bottlehead Stuff is pretty excellent sounding; although I kinda tailored them to my own liking.


 

 I have a Bottlehead Crack with Speedball that I will review and rank soon 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   


  Quote: 





estreeter said:


> It would appeat that the WA6 now ships with the highly vaunted 'pseudo-dual' power supply which was previously an option. At 620 USD, I have to ask if this makes it the best *bang-for-buck* of the top 5 (particularly as none of my headphones are high-impedance/high-sensitivity) ? You can drive most Grados from my D4 and my AD900s are similarly easy to power.


 


  The WA6 provides HUGE bang for the buck IMO.


----------



## estreeter

Quote: 





skylab said:


> The WA6 provides HUGE bang for the buck IMO.


 
   
  Thanks Rob - now my only concern is whether they can deliver before the Easter break (22-26 April here in Oz). Purely for reference purposes, of course - Easter would be a good time to burn in an amp that you cant leave unattended for fear that it might burn your domicile to the ground.


----------



## Wedge

Rob,  I'm curious to know, do you know if the Leben will take 7320s?


----------



## Skylab

I don't know for sure that it will, but it seems likely that it would, since the 7320/E84L is pretty similar in most respects to the 6BQ5/EL84.


----------



## Sweden

I'd like to see how you would rate the DNA Sonett.
  I listened to it with HD800 and it's even better then the Leben IMHO!
  An amp named after a Swedish car must be great tho.


----------



## Skylab

A long time ago I asked Donald for a loaner Sonnet for review, and he initially said yes, but I never heard back from him after that.


----------



## eclein

Skylab- I bought an MP-301 from a buddy based on your review and I love it, I might have missed something earlier in the thread and I read that you were waitng for the new version MP-301 MK2...did you get it in yet? Sorry if I missed anything already posted about this...Thanks
   Ed


----------



## Skylab

I should be getting my review loaner fo the MP 301 Mk II around the end of April.


----------



## Wharfrat

Herr Mein Doktor Skylab, 
   
  A wonderful endeavor, this listing and disclosure of synergies by you!  You have my lifetime gratitude (and lifetime envy!).  
  (To also know you dig the Good Ol' Grateful Dead as much as I do affirms my belief in the existence of Deadhead DNA in homo sapiens.  Now just to get it researched and confirmed is the thing....).
   
  Here is amp question: Have you ever reviewed or heard the Consonance Opera Cyber-20?  I took the audiophile plunge seriously after getting Senn HD555s and the Opera amp, the latter selected based on an online review article in Positive Feedback.  I have not been disappointed with it since installing a pair of 1956 Holland NOS Amperex Bugleboys (12AU7s, methinks) which gave the midrange a very palpable presence.  I have since gone further and got a EF5 from dear Grokit and several more mid-fi cans (Thunderpants, D7000, K501, ATH-AD2000....).  But it does not have the power to drive the more demanding cans like the HE-5 and to some degree a DT-880/250 ohm/2005 unit (which I also got after reading David Mahler's listing of cans).
   
  I am considering some of the top 10 amps on your list once I escape from the dungeon wrought by the purchase of a pair of Dunlavy SC-IV speakers (like with high-end headphones, high quality music can only be had with high quality (expensive) amplification...).  So thanks for your list...it saves me some of the hit and miss I see others having.
   
  Having said all that, what is your take on the Opera unit?  There is not much in the forum threads about it....makes me wonder if perhaps I got really lucky and got a sleeper product....
   
  Thanks again for all you've done.  I admire your commitment and seriously doubt you are ever on "vacation", LOL.


----------



## Skylab

Hey now Wharfrat,
   
  Thanks for the kind words.  I had a Opera Cyber 10 for a while, which sounded very good but had hum issues.  I sold it after just a few months of ownership.  So I never tried the Cyber 20, but I bet it sounds great, assuming it doesn't hum 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Listening right now to the Eyes from 11-11-73.  Heaven on earth.


----------



## estreeter

Quote: 





wharfrat said:


> Herr Mein Doktor Skylab,


 


  I think you might be laying it on just a little thick, Wharfrat - we all greatly appreciate Rob's work, but AFAIK they dont grant Doctorates for dedication to headphone-based audio !


----------



## googleli

Skylab, since I already have the amp right at spot No. 1 on your list, I am a very happy man, but when you got a chance, would you try the Cary SLI 80 to see if it is any better than our beloved Leben? Many thanks.
   
  Also I see your signature block saying you are on vacation and have limited head-fi time. Doesn't look like it lol ! What headphone(s) have you brought for your vacation?


----------



## Skylab

I would love to audition that Cary someday. My main preamp is the Cary SLP-05, which I adore as a preamp, although it's headphone amp is not very good.


----------



## Wharfrat

Quote: 





estreeter said:


> I think you might be laying it on just a little thick, Wharfrat - we all greatly appreciate Rob's work, but AFAIK they dont grant Doctorates for dedication to headphone-based audio !


 


 LOL!  Guilty as charged!
  But, certainly some of you guys deserve honorary ones.  Medals, even, for taking the road to fiscal perdition.
   
  Rob, now that you mention the hum issue, only one person has ever mentioned hearing it on my unit.  As it was at a head-fi meet, I wrote it off to a ground loop in the outlet series in the building, since I had that same problem at home (resolved by installing a dedicated line from the main panel).
   
  After this Winterland "Eyes", a little fractured from the fall, you have to be put together again with "China Doll".
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  Such a nice way to go home...
   
  Thanks for your response.


----------



## Wedge

Regarding the Cary SLI-80, someone posted in another thread about its headphone output.
   
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/344355/pictures-of-your-high-end-system/1650#post_7370619
   
  I had emailed them previously, asking them several questions about it, but they never got back to me, so I had originally intended to buy one, but I was kind of worried they weren't using the full circuit to supply it.  I'm not really sure what they do with it, but I can't believe they would put a separate amp circuit in for the headphone.  I wish they had gotten back to me about it.


----------



## Skylab

The Cary SLP-05, which is a top-tier stereo preamp and was The Absolute Sound's high-end preamp of the year, has a separate pair of 6SN7's dedicated to the headphone out, and it's even transformer coupled.  That said, it has two really major issues.  One is that they didn't make the hole in the massive faceplate big enough for the kind of headphone jacks most better headphones have.  Second, there is a DEFINITE roll-off in the bass.  It's easy to hear, and easy to measure.  I don't know why they did it.  I asked them about it, and they denied that it's there, but I'm not the only one who has heard it.  It makes the headphone out bright and anemic.  Too bad, since as a preamp it's wonderful.  After that experience, I wasn't too interested in using Cary preamps or integrated amps as headphone amps anymore.


----------



## estreeter

Quote: 





skylab said:


> The Cary SLP-05, which is a top-tier stereo preamp and was The Absolute Sound's high-end preamp of the year, has a separate pair of 6SN7's dedicated to the headphone out, and it's even transformer coupled.  That said, it has two really major issues.  One is that they didn't make the hole in the massive faceplate big enough for the kind of headphone jacks most better headphones have.  Second, there is a DEFINITE roll-off in the bass.  It's easy to hear, and easy to measure.  I don't know why they did it.  I asked them about it, and they denied that it's there, but I'm not the only one who has heard it.  It makes the headphone out bright and anemic.  Too bad, since as a preamp it's wonderful.  After that experience, I wasn't too interested in using Cary preamps or integrated amps as headphone amps anymore.


 

 Rob, I thank my favorite deity that we have you - imagine someone dashing out to buy that preamp only to find that it was a great preamp and a lousy headphone amp. I can see why you cant answer unsolicited PMs - you'd be getting about 50 a day from anxious would-be purchasers. Greatly appreciated.


----------



## davo50

Quote: 





skylab said:


> The Cary SLP-05, which is a top-tier stereo preamp and was The Absolute Sound's high-end preamp of the year, has a separate pair of 6SN7's dedicated to the headphone out, and it's even transformer coupled.  That said, it has two really major issues.  One is that they didn't make the hole in the massive faceplate big enough for the kind of headphone jacks most better headphones have.  Second, there is a DEFINITE roll-off in the bass.  It's easy to hear, and easy to measure.  I don't know why they did it.  I asked them about it, and they denied that it's there, but I'm not the only one who has heard it.  It makes the headphone out bright and anemic.  Too bad, since as a preamp it's wonderful.  After that experience, I wasn't too interested in using Cary preamps or integrated amps as headphone amps anymore.


 

 Well, I have a Cary SLI-80 and the head out is definitely not bright and anemic.  It's extremely warm and a touch lush.  I don't know how the head out is wired,  I use it mostly as a speaker amp and it's fantastic for that.  I do prefer my WA22 for headphones which is more dynamic, has better bass, and seems to respond more to tube rolling.  The Cary responds great to tube rolling with the speaker outs, but doesn't seem to affect the head-out so much.


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





davo50 said:


> Well, I have a Cary SLI-80 and the head out is definitely not bright and anemic.  It's extremely warm and a touch lush.  I don't know how the head out is wired,  I use it mostly as a speaker amp and it's fantastic for that.  I do prefer my WA22 for headphones which is more dynamic, has better bass, and seems to respond more to tube rolling.  The Cary responds great to tube rolling with the speaker outs, but doesn't seem to affect the head-out so much.


 

 It may well be fantastic.  Many people seem to think the SLI-80 is a great headphone amp.  Too bad they blew it on the SLP-05.
   
  Note that I have found Cary's technical support to be EXCELLENT.  The fact that their tech guys didn't think there was an intentional roll-off in the headphone out of the SLP-05 did not surprise me, and I don't fault them, obviously.  I don't know what the thinking was there, but it wasn't a good idea.  Pity, since the Cary is world-class as a preamp.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





skylab said:


> It may well be fantastic.  Many people seem to think the SLI-80 is a great headphone amp.  Too bad they blew it on the SLP-05.
> 
> Note that I have found Cary's technical support to be EXCELLENT.  The fact that their tech guys didn't think there was an intentional roll-off in the headphone out of the SLP-05 did not surprise me, and I don't fault them, obviously.  I don't know what the thinking was there, but it wasn't a good idea.  Pity, since the Cary is world-class as a preamp.


 
   
  Rob,
  Your experience in this situation tells me there's a capacitor in the woodpile somewhere...


----------



## Skylab

Yup, that was my thinking too...the rolloff is almost textbook 12 dB per octave.


----------



## davo50

Quote: 





skylab said:


> It may well be fantastic.  Many people seem to think the SLI-80 is a great headphone amp.  Too bad they blew it on the SLP-05.
> 
> Note that I have found Cary's technical support to be EXCELLENT.  The fact that their tech guys didn't think there was an intentional roll-off in the headphone out of the SLP-05 did not surprise me, and I don't fault them, obviously.  I don't know what the thinking was there, but it wasn't a good idea.  Pity, since the Cary is world-class as a preamp.


 
   
   
  I  just didn't want anyone to think that the headphone out on an SLI-80 is awful.  Used strictly as a headphone amp,  I am sure there are probably better options for the money than an SLI-80.  The fact that I prefer my WA22 tells me that.  And for the person above who wonders if it rivals a Leben as a head amp, I seriously doubt it (never heard one myself).  But for the person who listens primarily to speakers, occasionally to headphones, and would like a one amp solution, the SLI-80 would be a great option.


----------



## shaunybaby

well i have been reading a few of these great reveiws and i have setteled on the csp2+, i have been reading a few other reveiws on it as well and everyone is sayying good things in a few weeks i should hear if i am dissapointed or not, either way can,t wait.


----------



## Skylab

Wonderful amp, the CSP-2. You will dig it.


----------



## voodoohao

How would the Audeze LCD2s fare with the Darkvoice 337? with a Matrix Mini as a dac. OR would a solid state amp be better at accentuating the sound signature of the LCD2s? My eventual pair of headphones will be the LCD2s ( hopefully in the near future ) and I'm currently in a dilemma over which amp to keep the DV337 or Little Dot MKVII+, and would like the one that suits the LCD2s best


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





voodoohao said:


> How would the Audeze LCD2s fare with the Darkvoice 337? with a Matrix Mini as a dac. OR would a solid state amp be better at accentuating the sound signature of the LCD2s? My eventual pair of headphones will be the LCD2s ( hopefully in the near future ) and I'm currently in a dilemma over which amp to keep the DV337 or Little Dot MKVII+, and would like the one that suits the LCD2s best


 
  Have you checked out this thread?
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/495631/amp-recommendations-for-audeze-lcd-2/1875#post_7406984


----------



## florestan

For those of you that like to play with components, the Zvex ImpAmp with breakout box is a great little piece of hardware (and allot of fun). I have matched it with a HeadAmp GS-1 and, alternately, a Lisa III as pre-amps and have really been impressed with the sound of both combinations.  It is a sturdy little device, that is beautifully built with allot of mix and match possibilities. The breakout box has 3 1/4" impedance jacks (high to low . . . though I'm not sure of the exact numbers). The different impedances allows me to drive my LCD-2, HD650 and K701 all very well (though the highest impedance introduces a significant amount of hum depending on which headphone you use). What I love most about this amp is its flexibility: with the selection of multiple impedance jacks, and with so many options for modifying the tone along the chain (e.g., primarily by using different preamps, dacs, interconnects), there always seems to be a way to get the sound I'm looking for from the various headphones I like to use.


----------



## grokit

One post a year since 2006, nice one


----------



## florestan

Quote: 





grokit said:


> One post a year since 2006, nice one


 

 yeah, i know . . . though I believe this one makes it two this year! well, i mostly read reviews by others before buying stuff. I guess I was somewhat surprised that the Imp has gotten so little press (particularly as a tube headphone amp). just wanted to give it a plug and tube/tube hybrid seemed like the right place for it. that said, I may have used up next years post in responding, so it may be 2013 before you hear from me again.


----------



## Armaegis

Well it's a *very* niche product even by our standards as the manufacturer predominantly makes stomp boxes. Where's the info for the breakout box? I only see the regular imp on the website.


----------



## florestan

I bought my Imp and breakout box years ago from:
   
http://bigcitymusic.com/
   
  They still have the Imp listed, but not the breakout box. If interested you might try contacting them for more info. I found a site in the UK with it listed for sale. At least it will give a better visual of the box itself (a very simple, and elegant box that is built like a tank):

http://www.godlyd.com/default.asp?page=402&product=2472&p2472_v=1
   
  For a long time I've actually considered trying just the breakout box with my Deja Vu Pre and Power Amps, but I don't have a quality speaker cable long enough to reach the terminals on hand. That said, and curious as I am, I've been really satisfied with the combinations I've used to this point and always put it off.


----------



## Skylab

The Imp itself is configured only for speakers, though, correct?


----------



## florestan

correct: the original intention was to build a speaker amplifier. the breakout box is what converts it into a headphone amp . . . which is to say that it could be used to convert any amp that has speaker terminals into a headphone amp. that in itself is well worth the $100 or so dollars it costs.
   
  I should note one additional thing, though, about the imp. not only can you control the impedance via the breakout box jacks, underneath the imp has screws that act as pots to raise and lower the gain. From his online instructions:
   
  "Fully clockwise is -20dB or Consumer Level, good for iPods and other gear. Fully counter-clockwise is +4dB for pro gear such as recording studio consoles. Also, the +4dB setting works well for headphone use if you plan to make some sort of headphone breakout connector."


----------



## Skylab

Interesting.
   
  FWIW, while I have not done a formal review, I have added the Bottlehead "Crack" to the rankings list.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





florestan said:


> correct: the original intention was to build a speaker amplifier. the breakout box is what converts it into a headphone amp . . . which is to say that *it could be used to convert any amp that has speaker terminals into a headphone amp*. that in itself is well worth the $100 or so dollars it costs.
> 
> I should note one additional thing, though, about the imp. not only can you control the impedance via the breakout box jacks, underneath the imp has screws that act as pots to raise and lower the gain. From his online instructions:
> 
> "Fully clockwise is -20dB or Consumer Level, good for iPods and other gear. Fully counter-clockwise is +4dB for pro gear such as recording studio consoles. Also, the +4dB setting works well for headphone use if you plan to make some sort of headphone breakout connector."


 

 I wonder how this breakout box would perform with a higher-powered speaker amp. Seeing how low the IMP amp's power output is and the fact that the breakout box is especially made for the IMP I am wondering if it is really compatible with any speaker amp as it also says in the copy that the breakout box is not suitable for the K1000, meaning it won't drive the HE-6 properly either.


----------



## florestan

Quote: 





grokit said:


> I wonder how this breakout box would perform with a higher-powered speaker amp. Seeing how low the IMP amp's power output is and the fact that the breakout box is especially made for the IMP I am wondering if it is really compatible with any speaker amp as it also says in the copy that the breakout box is not suitable for the K1000, meaning it won't drive the HE-6 properly either.


 

 Good question; maybe not. I pulled this from the Zvex forum; some recommendations for building a breakout box for the imp, written by Zach:
   
  "put in a 750 ohm (or so) in series with the left and right hot connections. that should work fine for low-impedance headphones. for medium-impedance headphones i think 300 ohm 1/4 watt resistors are fine, and for high-impedance (600 ohm) headphones there's no need to use any series resistors."
   
  There are no other posts I could find describing the specs of the breakout box; but I assume this is the configuration he ended up using. The imp is a 1 Watt amp. My 300b, for example, is 18 Watts. I'm no electrical engineer, and have no idea how this translates . . . whether the breakout box would offer enough resistance to work with amps above 1 Watt. Maybe someone else has an idea, or maybe I need to just get some speaker cable and find out.
   
  As a side note, I just purchased a Stealth second hand (along with a couple different NOS input tubes) and will definitely be comparing it to the different imp set ups that I favor. Hopefully the stealth will be here later this week.


----------



## KuKuBuKu

Holy moley. Bottlehead Crack gets a #8 on the list.


----------



## estreeter

Quote: 





kukubuku said:


> Holy moley. Bottlehead Crack gets a #8 on the list.


 

 Did you read Rob's initial post ?
   
_I should also point out that, IMO, the *amps ranked from #5 on down are all VERY close in terms of sound quality*. From 6 up, some significant jumps begin to occur._
   
  Based on that, #8 isnt a whole lot different in Rob's opinion than #18. Over to Rob for further clarification.


----------



## estreeter

Quote: 





grokit said:


> One post a year since 2006, nice one


 

 Gold - its especially impressive when their first post begins 'Long time lurker, first time poster here.'


----------



## KuKuBuKu

Quote: 





estreeter said:


> Did you read Rob's initial post ?
> 
> _I should also point out that, IMO, the *amps ranked from #5 on down are all VERY close in terms of sound quality*. From 6 up, some significant jumps begin to occur._
> 
> Based on that, #8 isnt a whole lot different in Rob's opinion than #18. Over to Rob for further clarification.


 

 Whoops. I never noticed that. Fail.


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





estreeter said:


> Did you read Rob's initial post ?
> 
> _I should also point out that, IMO, the *amps ranked from #5 on down are all VERY close in terms of sound quality*. From 6 up, some significant jumps begin to occur._
> 
> Based on that, #8 isnt a whole lot different in Rob's opinion than #18. Over to Rob for further clarification.


 

 Indeed, it's very true.  It's really very subtle shades of grey in the middle area, for sure.


----------



## voodoohao

hmm wait I thought that statement meant 1-5 is very close in sound quality, while six and above ( to 30 ) has jumps in sound quality?


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





voodoohao said:


> hmm wait I thought that statement meant 1-5 is very close in sound quality, while six and above ( to 30 ) has jumps in sound quality?


 


  No, you have it backwards


----------



## estreeter

Quote: 





voodoohao said:


> hmm wait I thought that statement meant 1-5 is very close in sound quality, while six and above ( to 30 ) has jumps in sound quality?


 


  Voodoo, I'm really glad you arent filling in my Lotto coupons. Still, given my track record, it couldnt hurt 
   
  (ok, so you needed the word 'below' instead of 'above' - its all good)


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





grokit said:


> I wonder how this breakout box would perform with a higher-powered speaker amp. Seeing how low the IMP amp's power output is and the fact that the breakout box is especially made for the IMP I am wondering if it is really compatible with any speaker amp as it also says in the copy that the breakout box is not suitable for the K1000, meaning it won't drive the HE-6 properly either.


 
  Based upon the fact that it employs potentiometers to attenuate input, I would predict it will be trouble prone.


----------



## florestan

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> Based upon the fact that it employs potentiometers to attenuate input, I would predict it will be trouble prone.


 


  Just to clarify, we are discussing the breakout box and the ImpAmp as separate components, and the possibility of using the breakout box on its own with a speaker amp (that doesn't already have a headphone jack out). The idea being that the breakout box could be hooked up to the speaker terminals and the speaker amp could be converted into a headphone amp. The box itself has 3 different jacks which allow for 3 different impedances (300ohms, 600ohms and 750ohms, I believe). The potentiometers which attenuate input from -20dB to +4dB are on the Imp, not the breakout box (which has a set output resistance for each jack). Grokit was questioning whether a box designed for a 1 watt amp could be used on a device that produces a higher power output signal. I will pick up some speaker cable this weekend and give it a go. Either way, the idea of having a simple box that can power headphones with different requirements, using different output jacks, is a really good one. The fact that a quality one already exists and is produced for a relatively small amount of money (approx $100) is reason to hope it would be compatible with other higher power speaker amps.


----------



## voodoohao

ooh my bad haha, looks like I have to brush up on my language. Hmm so would you say the Leben is much better than the WA2, with a distinct difference in quality?


----------



## sling5s

I'm sure it was mentioned but would love to see where the MAD EAR HD is ranked.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





florestan said:


> Just to clarify, we are discussing the breakout box and the ImpAmp as separate components, and the possibility of using the breakout box on its own with a speaker amp (that doesn't already have a headphone jack out). The idea being that the breakout box could be hooked up to the speaker terminals and the speaker amp could be converted into a headphone amp. The box itself has 3 different jacks which allow for 3 different impedances (300ohms, 600ohms and 750ohms, I believe). The potentiometers which attenuate input from -20dB to +4dB are on the Imp, not the breakout box (which has a set output resistance for each jack). Grokit was questioning whether a box designed for a 1 watt amp could be used on a device that produces a higher power output signal. I will pick up some speaker cable this weekend and give it a go. Either way, the idea of having a simple box that can power headphones with different requirements, using different output jacks, is a really good one. The fact that a quality one already exists and is produced for a relatively small amount of money (approx $100) is reason to hope it would be compatible with other higher power speaker amps.


 
   
  I agree, the form factor and utility of that doohicky is fantastic.


----------



## Skylab

voodoohao said:


> ooh my bad haha, looks like I have to brush up on my language. Hmm so would you say the Leben is much better than the WA2, with a distinct difference in quality?


The WA2 is a terrific amp, but yes, I do think the Leben is noticeable better. It is far superior driving low impedance headphones, which is tougher for the OTL WA2.


----------



## grokit

So the transformer in a transformer-coupled tube amp transforms the voltage into current for low sensitivity low impedance loads, is that why OTL designs swing more voltage into high impedance headphones but can't handle the low impedance headphones that demand more current so well? I realize that it's probably more complicated that that but am I barking up the right tree?


----------



## Armaegis

There's also the matter of output impedance and power transfer characteristics. Beyond that, I think there's voodoo involved


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





grokit said:


> So the transformer in a transformer-coupled tube amp transforms the voltage into current for low sensitivity low impedance loads, is that why OTL designs swing more voltage into high impedance headphones but can't handle the low impedance headphones that demand more current so well? I realize that it's probably more complicated that that but am I barking up the right tree?


 
  Yes, you're barking up the right tree without overcomplicating things.


----------



## Armaegis

You have damping to consider too when your load impedance is lower than your output impedance.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





armaegis said:


> You have damping to consider too when your load impedance is lower than your output impedance.


 

 We were keeping things simple so we could focus on the concepts, right?


----------



## Armaegis

It's voodoo I tell ya!


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





armaegis said:


> It's voodoo I tell ya!


 
  Magic!


----------



## zeroeight

Quote: 





voodoohao said:


> hmm wait I thought that statement meant 1-5 is very close in sound quality, while six and above ( to 30 ) has jumps in sound quality?


 


  I read it that way as well.  What confused me was the overlap between the 5 and 6.  So 5-30 were very close while 1-6 were much great variance.


----------



## grokit

I read about damping some time ago but forgot what it was.
   
  Here we go, clear as mud (sigh):
 The damping circuit  The voltage generated by the moving voice coil forces current through three resistances:


 the resistance of the voice coil itself;
 the resistance of the interconnecting cable; and
 the output resistance of the amplifier.

   

  "*A high damping factor indicates that an amplifier will have greater control over the movement of the speaker cone*, particularly in the bass region near the resonant frequency of the driver's mechanical resonance. However, the damping factor at any particular frequency will vary, since driver voice coils are complex impedances whose values vary with frequency. In addition, the electrical characteristics of every voice coil will change with temperature; high power levels will increase coil temperature, and thus resistance. And finally, passive crossovers (made of relatively large inductors, capacitors, and resistors) are between the amplifier and speaker drivers and also affect the damping factor, again in a way that varies with frequency.

   

  Modern solid state amplifiers, which use relatively high levels of negative feedback to control distortion, have extremely low output impedances—one of the many consequences of using feedback—and small changes in an already low value change overall damping factor by only a small, and therefore negligible, amount.

  Thus, high damping factor values do not, by themselves, say very much about the quality of a system; most modern amplifiers have them, but vary in quality nonetheless... Tube amplifiers typically have much lower feedback ratios, and in any case almost always have output transformers that limit how low the output impedance can be. Their *lower damping factors are one of the reasons many audiophiles prefer tube amplifiers*. Taken even further, some tube amplifiers are designed to have no negative feedback at all."

   

  To me the parts I bolded seem to contradict each other, where a high damping factor offers greater control of the cone, but audiophiles prefer a low damping factor?

  In my simpleton understanding of this, it's basically a way of varying resistance to manufacture, or tune, a given frequency response... and it has something to do with impedance


----------



## Wedge

You know most places I go, Analog and Microwave Design are considered to Black Magic!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *kwkarth* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Magic!


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





grokit said:


> I read about damping some time ago but forgot what it was.
> 
> Here we go, clear as mud (sigh):
> The damping circuit  The voltage generated by the moving voice coil forces current through three resistances:
> ...


 
  I can see why this is confusing to people.  Not sure where you got that bit of information, but there are some dated inaccuracies contained in it that add to the confusion.  The first bolded statement is generally true, but the second bolded statement is not at all necessarily true.  The second statement is apparently some sort of conclusion the writer jumped to without stating how they arrived there.  
   
  The author appears to be concluding that output transformer secondary windings are solely responsible for the "sound" of all tube based speaker amplifiers.  This conclusion is not necessarily true at all.  IF an amp is transformer coupled at the output, the transformer is probably responsible for some of the sonic character and performance of the amp, but certainly not all.  
   
  The last sentence proffered by the author mentions some tube amps being designed with no negative feedback.  Today, we have a number of completely solid state amps designed employing zero global feedback as well.  
   
  Damping factors are not how manufacturers "tune" or "voice" an amplifier.  Negative feedback is used primarily as a means to lessen non linearities, both intra stage and inter stage in an amp.  High negative feedback became a very popular way to manage gain factors as well as non linearities in op-amp based amplifiers.  
   
  Along with the good there is also the bad that goes along with almost any design methodology.  The trade offs must be weighed.


----------



## kwkarth

One of the best (to me) illustrations of the effectiveness of electromagnetic damping comes by way of an electric drill motor.
   
  Consider the average variable speed cordless drill...  When one pulls the trigger all the way back so the drill runs at its highest speed, and then releases the trigger, the drill stops rotating instantly.  Why?  Try this experiment:
   
  While the trigger is fully depressed and the drill is running along at full speed, unplug the battery pack from the handle while keeping the trigger fully depressed.  What happens?  Try it, and tell me what you observe.  Then we can talk about what happened.


----------



## Armaegis

If only I had a cordless drill...


----------



## Mr Do

I hope we see some more love for the Sound Quest SQ-84 II tube amp around here.  Otherwise, nice read as always.
   
  Thanks,
  Mr. Do!


----------



## grokit

I tried it, the drill continues to rotate on it's own momentum, meaning it needs to have power to provide the resistance--negative feedback?--to come to a faster stop.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





grokit said:


> I tried it, the drill continues to rotate on it's own momentum, meaning it needs to have power to provide the resistance--negative feedback?--to come to a faster stop.


 

 Now, do the same test and let the trigger go.  The drill stops rotating instantly right?  What happened?  The inputs to the motor are shorted, which is like an infinitely high damping factor in an amplifier.  As the drill motor rotates, it generates its own "back emf,"  With its "input" shorted, that back emf electromagnetically countermands the rotation of the motor.  Electronic braking works the same way in any hybrid automobile.  The battery in the vehicle becomes the load on the motor instead of driving force and the motor charges the battery with the energy shunted into it.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> Now, do the same test and let the trigger go.  The drill stops rotating instantly right?  What happened?  *The inputs to the motor are shorted, which is like an infinitely high damping factor in an amplifier.*  As the drill motor rotates, it generates its own "back emf,"  With its "input" shorted, that back emf electromagnetically countermands the rotation of the motor.  *Electronic braking works the same way in any hybrid automobile*.  The battery in the vehicle becomes the load on the motor instead of driving force and the motor charges the battery with the energy shunted into it.


 

 I would love to hear you expand on the first part that I bolded. But the second part, isn't the inverse true? It seems that electricity is creating the braking action on the drill, but the braking action on a hybrid is creating the electricity.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





grokit said:


> I would love to hear you expand on the first part that I bolded. But the second part, isn't the inverse true? It seems that electricity is creating the braking action on the drill, but the braking action on a hybrid is creating the electricity.


 
  Whether a speaker or a drill motor, they both work both ways by Maxwell's equations/principles.  When a coil of wire is moved through magnetic lines of force from the permanent magnet, current flows in a closed circuit.  Conversely, when current is passed through a coil of wire while it is immersed in a magnetic field, the magnetic field which is generated by the current flowing in the wire, pushes against the permanent magnetic field and moves the voice coil or drill motor rotor, as the case may be.
   
  In the case of the drill motor, when the trigger is released, it shorts the input to the motor.  The back emf generated in the motor's windings stops it instantly.


----------



## zorin

Skylab,  any experience with  HeadCode, ValveCode and PortaCode amps from Triad Audio ?


----------



## Skylab

I am supposed to receive one of the very first of the new Valvecodes for review.


----------



## florestan

Quote: 





skylab said:


> I am supposed to receive one of the very first of the new Valvecodes for review.


 
   
  Any idea when that might happen? I love the Lisa III and am very curious to see what Triad would make on a larger scale (particularly with tubes).
   
  As for my little experiment, using the Zvex breakout box with my 300b speaker amp, it works REALLY well! I initially plugged my LCD's in, the volume set to 0, with some trepidation. I used my newly acquired Stealth as the pre-amp (which arrived on Saturday) and the first 2 jacks were very quiet, the first dead silent in fact. The 3rd however introduces quite a bit of hum; too much to be of any use with either the LCD-2 or AKG K701; and, the HD650's are so sensitive that I wouldn't want to use anything but the first jack to power them. Still, the first jack, with all three headphones is quiet, and very responsive. First impression: "wow, why didn't i do this like 3 years ago." That said, I haven't had time to really compare it in detail to my other headphone set-ups: I spent most of the weekend trying everything I could think of with the Stealth as both a headphone amp and speaker PreAmp. I have to say that I am really quite impressed with it as a Speaker PreAmp, but particularly impressed with how well it matches up with the HD650's. As I was listening I kept thinking that I would be perfectly happy with just this amp and headphone set-up alone . . . what a perfect combination! I feel so fortunate to have picked it up for only $1500 shipped (a steal!).
   
  Alternately, when I switched to my Deju Vu Pre, I was reminded just how much higher the noise floor was. Suddenly the 1st jack became the only reasonable option, regardless of headphone (and the Senns were no longer a possible match as they had been with the stealth as a Pre). The Gain is just set too high too listen without a loud and ever present hum. That said, the 1st jack managed to power the LCD-2's cleanly and without any issues. Over the next few weeks I plan to spend allot of time dissecting the different possibilities and comparing the various components to try to understand something more about their individual characteristics and how they might potentially compliment one another in different arrangements. But, for anyone with an efficient (read "quiet") speaker PreAmp/Amp combination and a desire to hear them drive your headphones (particularly the less efficient ones), I would say that the Zvex BreakOut Box is an incredible bargain at $100 and works quite nicely; but, it will take some time and convincing before I consider using it as a full time replacement for my go to options.


----------



## dallan

Quote: 





skylab said:


> I am supposed to receive one of the very first of the new Valvecodes for review.


 


  I am very interested on your thoughts with that as well.


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





dallan said:


> I am very interested on your thoughts with that as well.


 

 I am anxious to hear it!  Not sure when it will actually find its way to me, though.


----------



## KuKuBuKu

Quote: 





skylab said:


> I am supposed to receive one of the very first of the new Valvecodes for review.


 


  How much does it cost?


----------



## Skylab

I don't know yet.


----------



## bumblingbooby

Thank you Skylab for this excellent resource. I see that you've rated the Woo WA2 slightly higher than the Decware CSP-2 and I was wondering why. I know that both amps are OTL and theoretically better suited to high impedance phones. I'm under the impression that like the Zana Deux SE, the CSP-2 does well with low impedance phones for an OTL amp. It seems that it might handle them better than the WA2. Was that your experience? 
   
  I'm on the look out for a tube amp to pair with the Grado PS1000 and have the DNA Sonett, MAD Ear+HD and Woo WA6 SE in mind but the CSP2+ has also piqued my interest. Would you still recommend a transformer coupled design amp over the CSP-2 for low impedance phones or is it the exception to the rule?


----------



## Skylab

I would recommend a transformer-coupled amp for low impedance headphones, yes.  The CSP-2 and WA2 both do OK with low impedance headphones, but I prefer even the maxxed WA6 (non-SE) over either of these for low-impedance dynamic headphones.  The WA2 is actually slightly better than the WA6 with the LCD-2 (which while low impedance do not have the same damping factor issues that dynamic-driver headphones do).
   
  You might consider the Trafomatic Head One too, it's an excellent transformer-coupled tube amp that works very well with low-impedance cans.  I like it a lot with my Edition 8.


----------



## Wedge

Rob, will you be adding the Lyr and the Musical Paradise to this list?


----------



## Skylab

I will be, yes - MP301mkII is in the review process; I have not received the Lyr review loaner yet.


----------



## bumblingbooby

Thanks for the advice Skylab, which confirms what I think I already knew but didn't want to believe. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I read a complimentary review about the Trafomatic Head One some time back but it has since slipped out of my consciousness. I'll explore that option further.


----------



## jeust0999

Any plans to ever write up a quick review about your woo 6? (Perhaps a quick mention about in your upcoming 301 mkii review)
   
  I've seen you post some very good things about it with the audez'es.....very tempting.
   
  -Thanks


----------



## Skylab

No, no plans for a formal review of the WA6. I have commented about it very extensively though  It is a very fine amp, and it does well with a very wide variety of headphones due to it being transformer coupled and having an impedance switch.


----------



## jeust0999

Yeah, I've seen you say some pretty good things about it for the LCD2's; particularly saying it would be a better match than the CSP2 (excellent amp, but it is an OTL).
   
  I think I'm going to go for the wa6/audez'e combo.
   
  The T1's are going to be around for a while, so they can wait.....but when I do get them I'm definitely going with a beautiful Decware CSP2.
   
  -Thanks


----------



## dallan

Rob, here's one that you gotta get your hands on to review, esp since you ended up keeping the 800s.  It transforms them more than any amp i have ever heard.   Gives them strong rich bass, I was blown away.  Craig brought it to the local meet yesterday.
   
Eddie Current Super 7 (Prototype) impressions and pics


----------



## Skylab

Will have to check it out!  Looks very cool.


----------



## musedesign

Skylab, Thank you for the great work!
   

  I have a pair of HD650 (I know you don't have a pair).   Bought a Audio-gd NFB-12 and enjoying the sound, but...it seems to be lacking umph.  I don't know how else to say it, the NFB-12 is very detailed, with a wide soundstage, but it is a little cold sounding, almost clinical.

   

  I listen at my desk, so a small amp footprint is important and price around $350. 

   

  Your ratings:

  10. Audiotailor Jade, $300, Audiotailor

  11. Shiit Valhall, $349 

17. Darkvoice 336SE $249, Audiophile China​  ​ My thought is to keep the Audio gd and use it as a DAC with one of the above amps or return the  NFB-12.  I have read concerns about the Audiotailor reliability.  Would appreciate your recommendations.​   
  Thanks!
  Mark

   

  Macbook Pro > Pandora > Toslink > NFB-12 > HD650


----------



## Skylab

I would lean toward the Valhalla, but I don't own HD650's anymore and have not in years. I'm not sure of the Jade's availability, though, and the Valhalla is a nicer amp than the 336SE.


----------



## musedesign

Thank you Skylab !, 
   
  Mark


----------



## zibra

Hello!
  I currently own ss headamp matrix m stage used with beyers dt880pro/250. I just bought older model of 880/600 ohm. Can you give me advice which tube amp would be a noticeable upgrade of that great little matrix? I dont want to buy "similiar class" product only something lot better. Especially powerful enough to drive those 600ohm ones (friend said that matrix m stage was a lil bit to weak for its best sound).
  I dont know if woo audio 3 isnt equal with m stage for example in general terms of sound quality.
  Generally what else would be considered as class or two higher than matrix ( about  600-700 usd to spend)?


----------



## Skylab

I've never heard a matrix so any comparison is tough. In that price range, though, the WooAudio WA6 is a great amp, highly recommended.


----------



## zibra

arghhhh, what a shame... i still dont know if matrix is so goood at budget price or not comparing to woo audio 3 or 6 for example from your ranking it was obvious recommending WA6 at that price range, but still its hard for me buying it without comparision head to head.... especially its ss vs tube


----------



## googleli

It happens that the Nordost Vahalla interconnect is one of the RCAs I am currently considering for my K01 and Leben setup. The cables at only one meter would cost more than the Leben itself and I feel it is quite ridiculous.


----------



## Sweden

Probably the biggest waist of your hard earned money out there and you are correct that It's ridiculous.
  Quote: 





googleli said:


> It happens that the Nordost Vahalla interconnect is one of the RCAs I am currently considering for my K01 and Leben setup. The cables at only one meter would cost more than the Leben itself and I feel it is quite ridiculous.


----------



## musedesign

Hi Skylab, I noticed that the Little Dot MkIII, is missing from your reviews.  The amp seems to have a huge following and is rated Stereophile Class B (not that either means anything!)  What are your thoughts on the amp?
   

  Thank you for being such a wonderful resource!


----------



## Skylab

Unfortunately, I have never heard the Little Dot amps except ever so briefly at meets.


----------



## musedesign

Quote:


skylab said:


> Unfortunately, I have never heard the Little Dot amps except ever so briefly at meets.


 

 Skylab, Thank you for the reply.  It is tough separating the hype from the real reviews and I trust your comments and thoughts.
   
  Thank you!


----------



## Sweden

I'm really looking forward to a review of the new DNA 2A3 amp!
  Maybe you could contact Donald and see if you could get a loan..


----------



## Skylab

Donald has already indicated he is not interested in providing one, sorry.


----------



## eimis

And where's the Heed CanAmp..?


----------



## jeust0999

I suggest you look at this thread if you're looking for reviews on solid state amps....
   
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/403237/review-summary-index-22-solid-state-home-headphone-amps


----------



## naurispunk

awesome


----------



## sphinxvc

Skylab, I know you probably won't be doing a WA22 review but might we see it placed on the ranking?


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





sphinxvc said:


> Skylab, I know you probably won't be doing a WA22 review but might we see it placed on the ranking?


 


  Yes, as soon as I experiment a little more with tubes it will be added to the list


----------



## sphinxvc

Cool.


----------



## Locknar

Hi Skylab,
   
  Just wondering where your Reviewerus Prolificusness would rank the Schiit Lyr on this list considering you have the Valhalla at #11? That is if you've given one a listen yet. If this question has been asked already please forgive. I haven't read the entire thread.


----------



## Skylab

No worries, but sorry I have not heard the Lyr, so cannot rank that.


----------



## Skylab

For those interested, I added the Woo WA-22.


----------



## sphinxvc

^ Thanks.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Curious, any chance of you reviewing Vinnie's new Audez'e Edition Isabellina?


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





sphinxvc said:


> ^ Thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I have asked him for a review loaner - we will see what they say.


----------



## Locknar

Quote: 





skylab said:


> No worries, but sorry I have not heard the Lyr, so cannot rank that.


 
   
  Thanks for the reply! I'm surprised they haven't sent you a loaner yet, considering it's one of the hottest amps out there right now and that you're Head-Fi's preeminent tube amp aficionado. I'm sure there are many current and potential Lyr owners who would be interested in your impressions and where it would rank on your list. Myself included obviously.


----------



## Skylab

They actually did agree to send me a loaner when the backlog of orders was cleared, but the amp was so popular that this took several months, and by the time it looked like one was to become available the Lyr was not really news anymore and I lost my interest in reviewing it. I put a lot of time and effort into my full reviews, and I want them to have value to the community. No real sense in my reviewing something that hundreds ofnpeople had already been discussing for hundreds of thread pages already


----------



## jeust0999

Skylab, I've seen you mention how mellow and smooth the WA22 can be. Do you feel WA2 can be as _euphonic? _--thanks
   
  (I don't have intentions of going balanced, but just curious of their general sound signatures)


----------



## Skylab

Pretty close, yes. The WA2 was just slightly less euphonic than the WA22 with the tubes I tried, but it is still for sure on the tubey and lush side.


----------



## jeust0999

Very cool, thanks. Glad to see this list keeps growing.


----------



## shaunybaby

hi skylab.
   
  i know you have already reveiw one load of schitt but what about another like the ''lyr''?


----------



## tme110

He answered that 4 posts ago


----------



## log0

Quote: 





skylab said:


> They actually did agree to send me a loaner when the backlog of orders was cleared, but the amp was so popular that this took several months, and by the time it looked like one was to become available the Lyr was not really news anymore and I lost my interest in reviewing it. I put a lot of time and effort into my full reviews, and I want them to have value to the community. No real sense in my reviewing something that hundreds ofnpeople had already been discussing for hundreds of thread pages already


 

 Hey Skylab,
  I can tell you that as a relative new comer to head-fi there is no one's review I look forward to reading more than yours, as it appears you have owned/tested such an extensive list of tube amplifiers that your opinion holds a lot of sway, at least with me. For the Lyr being such a low cost solution with rave reviews, I'd like to know how you rank it with the heavy weights of the tube amps to really see its value. You'd most certainly have one reader if you choose to review the Lyr. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  BTW, I enjoy reading through your thread about the William Ralston room. It is incredible what an acoustically treated room can do, I think it makes the world of difference.


----------



## Skylab

I appreciate the kind words. Perhaps I will see if Schiit will send a Lyr when they send me their new DAC for review


----------



## redwarrior191

so they've promised to send the bifrost for your review? cool..i'm looking forward to it, skylab..


----------



## caracara08

i was kinda surprised to seee the WA3 so far down the list.  i was actually really considering that vs the lyr for a 600 ohm beyer.


----------



## Type35

Even if the Schiit Lyr is not a novelty item anymore, I think your review would still be very valuable in the sense that you would be able to consistently highlight the differences with the other tube amps you have already reviewed.
  I was able to hear the Asgard, Valhalla and Lyr at length in the same setup and although Asgard and Valhalla are good for the money, I have found similar priced amps that were overall "better". However, I was really surprised by what the Lyr could do.
  I for one would be very curious to see where the Lyr fits in the rankings.


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





caracara08 said:


> i was kinda surprised to seee the WA3 so far down the list.  i was actually really considering that vs the lyr for a 600 ohm beyer.


 


  The WA3 is a VERY nice amp, but this is a long list with some very expensive amps on it!  Remember I like and recommend EVERY ONE of these amps.


----------



## caracara08

Quote: 





skylab said:


> The WA3 is a VERY nice amp, but this is a long list with some very expensive amps on it!  Remember I like and recommend EVERY ONE of these amps.


 


  thank you for the response.  trying to see if i could fit the csp2 into a small budget.  righ tnow i have the lyr but wanted to compare it to a wa3 then keep the one i like better. i heard the WA2 and loved it so i was considering the WA3, but wondering if ill end up being disappointed becuase it wont sound as good as the WA2.


----------



## donunus

Sorry if I missed all the reviews but can I just ask whether your rankings on low and high impedance cans change when comparing the decware csp-2 vs the wa6 if upgraded with the sophia rectifier and the pd power supply?


----------



## Skylab

My WA6 has the PDPS.  I did not like the Sophia rectifier, though - I much prefer my NOS 5U4G.  So neither of those things would change my rankings, no.  But we are talking here about two outstanding headphone amps, both of which I think also offer a very strong value.


----------



## shaunybaby

A lil bird told me that you have a lyr, i am very much looking forward to hear your impressions of this amp.


----------



## Skylab

Yup, I will be adding it to this list at some point.


----------



## xinque

Looking at possible amp upgrades for my T1, currently have a Schiit Lyr.  A lot of people over in T1 thread seem to favor the CSP2 and WA2, and they seem to be the next notch up in price.  Any thoughts on the two amps with the T1, or how they might compare to my current Lyr?


----------



## Hero Kid

Quote:


skylab said:


> Yup, I will be adding it to this list at some point.


 

 Oh wow so you finally got one? Better late then never I suppose. I will be keen to read what you think of it.


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





xinque said:


> Looking at possible amp upgrades for my T1, currently have a Schiit Lyr.  A lot of people over in T1 thread seem to favor the CSP2 and WA2, and they seem to be the next notch up in price.  Any thoughts on the two amps with the T1, or how they might compare to my current Lyr?


 


  Haven't tried it with the T1 yet.  Will get to that in time.


----------



## log0

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Yup, I will be adding it to this list at some point.


 


  I would love to know your impressions of this amp especially with some good tubes like the Mullard E88CC gold pins, did you happen to have those to roll into the Lyr? I realize there is a whole thread of multiple pages dedicated to tube rolling with the Lyr, but I would appreciate your reading your opinion .


----------



## Skylab

I do plan to try Mullard 2492's, yes.


----------



## olor1n

Quote: 





skylab said:


> I do plan to try Mullard 2492's, yes.


 


  Mullard vs Amperex vs Siemens?


----------



## Skylab

I have all of those, including the fabled Siemens CCA, but don't get too excited, not sure I will have time to compare them all


----------



## grokit

The Amperex 6922 gold pins were the only tubes that I tried, so I am particularly interested in what you think of them in the Lyr. I liked it with the K701 but not anything else except preamp duties with a speaker system, so they might have caused me to judge the Lyr a little harshly with the other headphones that I tried it with (even though the buyer that I sold them to said the tubes sounded great).
   
  I probably should have given the stock tubes a comparative chance at least.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





skylab said:


> I have all of those, including the fabled Siemens CCA, but don't get too excited, not sure I will have time to compare them all


 


  Duty calls on the Siemens CCA.


----------



## rydenfan

Skylab, have you posted any detailed thoughts on the WA22 with the LCD2's? I was looking around and could not find anything. There are a few amps tied in the number 3 spot so I was very curious. Thanks.


----------



## Skylab

Yes, I have. Honestly, I don't love that combination the way I had hoped. With most of the tubes I tried it with, I thought the WA22 did a better job with the HD800 that it did with the LCD-2, much to my surprise. The WA22 is a fine amp, but it would not be my first choice in that price range with the LCD-2. The Decware Mini-Torii is better, for example. On the other hand, the WA22 might be better for someone who has a wide variety of headphones they want to use.


----------



## WarriorAnt

I noticed you updated the first page today.  Was it to add the LYR to the list?


----------



## Skylab

warriorant said:


> I noticed you updated the first page today.  Was it to add the LYR to the list?



Yes, I added the Lyr. It continues to impress.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Yes, I added the Lyr. It continues to impress.


 

 Are you going to write a review?  I've been wondering about the Lyr's ability to reproduce fine detail and how the soundstage is.


----------



## Skylab

warriorant said:


> Are you going to write a review?  I've been wondering about the Lyr's ability to reproduce fine detail and how the soundstage is.



Yes at some point, although the RWA Audeze Edition has to be reviewed first.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Yes at some point, although the RWA Audeze Edition has to be reviewed first.


 

 Have you gotten that combo yet along with the LCD R.2?


----------



## Skylab

I have the RWA AE in the house, yes. No R2, though.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Sounds like you're backed up in tube heaven!


----------



## Sweden

I'd like to see a ranking regading only LCD-2's, taking into consideration all the vintage SS and tube gear too.


----------



## olor1n

Validation at last! Lol joke. I'm actually surprised you think that highly of the Lyr. Considering its position in that top 10, it's odd that it's not praised as much in posts outside the dedicated threads. I suspect its "budget" pricing may go towards why prominent members have shunned it. Also, Schiit probably did not do themselves any favours by initially shipping tubes that did not distinguish the Lyr at all.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





olor1n said:


> Validation at last! Lol joke. I'm actually surprised you think that highly of the Lyr. Considering its position in that top 10, it's odd that it's not praised as much in posts outside the dedicated threads. I suspect its "budget" pricing may go towards why prominent members have shunned it. Also, Schiit probably did not do themselves any favours by initially shipping tubes that did not distinguish the Lyr at all.


 


  The price of the LYR compels me to purchase it but there is one factor that always stops me.  It seems that every owners swears by a different set of tubes.  Maybe I'm wrong the tube rolling thread for the Lyr got to massive for me.   Is there a consensus for the best sound with the LCD-2 r.2?


----------



## Hero Kid

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> [...] Is there a consensus for the best sound with the LCD-2 r.2?


 

 I will try to answer your question with another question. Is there any consensus about how anything sounds in this hobby?


----------



## olor1n

That thread was mainly driven by one member's machine gun rate of tube rolling, with others getting swept along with claims of "the one" made every other day. It was an arms race, with quick dismissal in favor of illusive, ultra rare and expensive NOS. Meaningful impressions from prolonged use were quickly buried without elaboration. MacedonianHero, jamato, misterrogers and now (hopefully) Skylab are the members to seek recommendations from.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





hero kid said:


> I will try to answer your question with another question. Is there any consensus about how anything sounds in this hobby?


 

 That's the only consensus in this hobby.


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Yes, I added the Lyr. It continues to impress.


 

 I've had mine for several months now, and it definitely continues to impress me. It's ability to drive my two orthos is simply amazing (especially at it's price point).


----------



## donunus

Without having to read the whole tube rolling thread, I'd like to ask if you think the stock tubes are good.


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





donunus said:


> Without having to read the whole tube rolling thread, I'd like to ask if you think the stock tubes are good.


 

 The JJ stock tubes are "adequate", the GE 6BZ7 stock tubes give you about 20% more gain and sound great. They compare very well to the other much more expensive 6922 tube variants that I've rolled over the past several months.


----------



## Skylab

I didn't even use the JJ's - past experience has shown me that they are not very good sounding. However, Schiit supplied the loaner with GE 6BZ7's, which sound excellent to me as well.


----------



## zeroryu

i'm wondering if wa2 would be a good match paired with hd600 compared to any other amps in the same price range. i saw that you put wa2 at #4 which is very high.


----------



## googleli

So glad that my Leben CS300XS is on the top of the list. It is a dream with the LCD2 Rev 1, and with my Esoteric K-01 as source. Although the tubes alone cost more than US$1,200 which is about half the price of the Leben here in Hong Kong, the change is just astounding. The 1950's Amperex D-getter 12AX7s and the Mullard 1950's vintage EL84 tubes are a very good match for the LCD2 Rev 1. I just complete ignored JJ or other new production tubes now, except the Goldlion reissues which are still quite good as power valves.


----------



## sling5s

I'm surprised the Lyr is ranked lower than WA6 (regular not WA6SE version).
  I assume, generally it maybe a better amp for most headphones but maybe the Lyr is still a better amp with the LCD-2 than WA6.


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





sling5s said:


> I'm surprised the Lyr is ranked lower than WA6 (regular not WA6SE version).
> I assume, generally it maybe a better amp for most headphones *but maybe the Lyr is still a better amp with the LCD-2 than WA6.*


 

 I believe that was the thinking behind it. Rob, please confirm?


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote: 





sling5s said:


> I'm surprised the Lyr is ranked lower than WA6 (regular not WA6SE version).
> I assume, generally it maybe a better amp for most headphones but maybe the Lyr is still a better amp with the LCD-2 than WA6.


 

 The WA6 is actually a very good amp - my maxed WA6 with pseudo dual power supply mod was almost up to the level of Blutarsky's Melos SHA Gold or Zana Deux during a couple of day-long comparisons in the summer of 2008.  The soundstage is more forward and less wide than my ZDT and it's not as powerful, but it's still a very refined and enjoyable amp.  When I bought the ZDT the plan was that it was replacing the WA6, but I found that I couldn't part with the WA6 once I'd done that.


----------



## WarriorAnt

How does the Lyr compare to the WA 6 SE?


----------



## Skylab

Right, this is not a ranking of what amps are best with the LCD-2  I think the WA-6 is slightly better sounding across a broad range of headphones, even though the Lyr is a better with the LCD-2. I like the WA6 quite a bit with the LCD-2 as well, though. Both really excellent amps, with a very strong value for money. Given I have just reviewed one $4K headphone amp and am about to review another, the fact that the Lyr and the WA6 are as good as they are is good news for headphone music lovers.

I have never heard a WA-6SE, WarriorAnt, sorry.


----------



## googleli

The only amp I have heard with the LCD2 which is better than the Leben with vintage tubes is the Accuphase C3800 Preamp, but at more than US$20,000 I think it would be a bit of overkill on any headphones on earth, even for things like the R10 or Qualia 010.


----------



## leesure

Skylab, Have you asked Vinnie for a review sample of the new Isabellina Balanced DAC Amp?  Might well be worth the listen.


----------



## Berto

Skylab, want to thank you very much for the time you put in to providing us with your wealth of knowledge!
   
  I am using a pair of HD600's, and have not been able to decide between the WA3, WA6, or the CSP2 (or CSP2+) for my first amp. I know the WA3 and CSP2 are both OTL, so I'm not sure how the WA6 would compare. I've read in some threads that the WA6 isn't as "tubey" with some higher impedance phones. If you had to pick just one (with STOCK tubes for the first little while at least) which would you pick? Do you feel the extra  ~$150 is worth it for the CSP2?


----------



## Skylab

I would go for the CSP-2 if you can afford it.


----------



## leesure

Too funny...I jusr read in the LCD2 amp thread that you're already reviewing the RWA AE. Looking forward to your impressions.


----------



## zorin

Skylab, please excuse this diversion into portable amps, do you happen to know and if so what is your opinion of - Just Audio AHA 120, class A portable amp. ? There are some claims that it is the best thing since the sliced bread. There is also - Leckerton Audio UHA-6S portable amp, a relatively new product on the scene. Are you going to add these 2 and possibly other amps to your review of the portable amplifiers ?  Thanks.  Z.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





zorin said:


> Skylab, please excuse this diversion into portable amps, do you happen to know and if so what is your opinion of - Just Audio AHA 120, class A portable amp. ? There are some claims that it is the best thing since the sliced bread. There is also - Leckerton Audio UHA-6S portable amp, a relatively new product on the scene. Are you going to add these 2 and possibly other amps to your review of the portable amplifiers ?  Thanks.  Z.


 
  This should have been a PM to Skylab


----------



## TwoTrack

Great stuff Skylab!


----------



## zyth3x

Got an ETA on the RWA AE review?


----------



## Skylab

by Sunday at the latest.


----------



## googleli

Thanks dude - looking forward to it. Any chance to do some tube rolling yet? Not really excited by the stock JJ tube even though I haven't heard it yet.


----------



## tme110

jic:
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/572939/review-red-wine-audio-audeze-edition-balanced-headphone-amplifier-dac-combo


----------



## justie

Awesome stuff here dude  in the LCD2 thread u mentioned u were working on a review of the Lyr 2~3 months ago. I was wondering if the review is done or if ur still gonna work on it. Thanks


----------



## estreeter

kwkarth said:


> This should have been a PM to Skylab




... and he doesn't answer unsolicited PMs. Agree that it was massively OT though, and I absolutely understand why Rob doesnt accept PMs. I wrote exactly one review in Portable Amps and I still get PMs from people wanting to know what amp they should buy.


----------



## Skylab

Thanks Justie. Actually I had originally planned a review of the Lyr, but then a review sample wasn't available to me for a long time. Schiit did send me one fairly recently which I have been listening to and posting about, including ranking it here. But I probably won't be doing a full review of it - I have commented on it already quite a bit in the Lyr thread. I will comment more on it in my upcoming review of the new Schiit DAC (which for the record I do not have in hand yet).

Yes, estreeter is right, my portable amp thread was locked for a reason, and I can't handle the volume of PMs from people asking me about them. But this thread for sure is not the place to ask about portables.


----------



## justie

ahh, no problem then  cant wait to read ur bifrost review 
  
  Quote: 





skylab said:


> Thanks Justie. Actually I had originally planned a review of the Lyr, but then a review sample wasn't available to me for a long time. Schiit did send me one fairly recently which I have been listening to and posting about, including ranking it here. But I probably won't be doing a full review of it - I have commented on it already quite a bit in the Lyr thread. I will comment more on it in my upcoming review of the new Schiit DAC (which for the record I do not have in hand yet).
> Yes, estreeter is right, my portable amp thread was locked for a reason, and I can't handle the volume of PMs from people asking me about them. But this thread for sure is not the place to ask about portables.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Skylab your fans hunger for a review, actually we are ravenous for your Lyr review.   Feed us with a review. Don't let us starve on the Lyr vine!


----------



## boirefish

Curious to see how a lyr with most preferred tubes fares with a wa6 of similar calibre


----------



## Synergy Sound

What would you recommend for a DT 880 600ohm, Schiit Lyr or Valhalla?
   
  Cheers.


----------



## jacobthellamer

How do the Millett DIY amps compare?


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





synergy sound said:


> What would you recommend for a DT 880 600ohm, Schiit Lyr or Valhalla?
> 
> Cheers.


 

 I have not tried the 880 with either one.  However, having owned the 880's for many years, and based on my experience with the Valhalla and the Lyr, I think I would go for the Valhalla.  The 880's can benefit from its warmth, and they do not require the power delivery of the Lyr.
   


  Quote: 





jacobthellamer said:


> How do the Millett DIY amps compare?


 


  Sorry, but I cannot say, I have not heard any of these.


----------



## tim_j_thomas

No opportunity yet to here something from Mapletree?  They really are very good and quite reasonable.


----------



## Skylab

Unfortunately not, although I agree the amps seem nice and have a good reputation.


----------



## tim_j_thomas

I'm not far from you, but I would think there has to be somebody in the Chicago area that has a MAD they could loan you for a week or two.


----------



## customcoco

skylab,
   
  the apex peak/volcano ranks on n°3 when the isabella ranks on n°2, do you still think that the isabella is superior?


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## googleli

Great to see the revised ranking - the Apex and Redwine amps added to the list yet still not replacing the Leben for the top spot 
   
  I will be getting the Liquid Fire soon - I will try to compare it with the Leben in the Liquid Fire thread. Once you have a chance to listen to it, I would be very much interested in reading your views too (especially in comparison to the Leben). Cheers!


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## Skylab

Quote: 





customcoco said:


> skylab,
> 
> the apex peak/volcano ranks on n°3 when the isabella ranks on n°2, do you still think that the isabella is superior?


 

 I do, yes, but both are truly excellent.
   


  Quote: 





googleli said:


> Great to see the revised ranking - the Apex and Redwine amps added to the list yet still not replacing the Leben for the top spot
> 
> I will be getting the Liquid Fire soon - I will try to compare it with the Leben in the Liquid Fire thread. Once you have a chance to listen to it, I would be very much interested in reading your views too (especially in comparison to the Leben). Cheers!


 

 I don't think I will ever be reviewing the Liquid Fire (although I would very much like to), but the listens I have had at shows were very promising.


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## customcoco

Quote: 





skylab said:


> I do, yes, but both are truly excellent.


 

  
  thanks,
   
  I just stumbled upon your review of the blue circle audio hpt (a terrific review, btw), would you say that the isabella is more transparent than the hpt?
   
  have you ever heard an amp made by mapletree audio?
   
  thank you anyway..


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## Ken Rosenberg

What would be more suitable for a DT 880 600Ω, WA3 or WA6?
   
  I've read that the WA2 provides excellent synergy with the high impedance DT line, so I would _think_ the WA3 would be better, due to it's similarity with the WA2 as opposed to the WA6.


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## hodgjy

If all you plan on ever driving are high impedance cans, WA2 or WA3 make the most sense because they are OTL designs.  If you want the flexibility of low impedance cans someday, the WA6 makes sense because of its output transformer.  
   
  Also, the whole WA2 vs WA3 question can be answered by your cans and budget.  If you drive the 880s, the WA3 is fine.  If you step up to the T1, you may benefit from the WA2.
   
  I have the WA3 and love it.  I drove the 880s for a while before switching to the 990s.  I had no real complaints about driving the 880s, but sometimes, depending on the tube rolling combinations, the 880s sounded a tad cold and dry.  The 990s beef up a little more with some tubes pushing them.  Why am I telling you this?  Because the OTL amps sound more "tubey" than output transformer amps.  Depending on your listening preference, you need to answer this question, "Do you want more of a tube sound or solid state sound?". Then, you can pick the WA3 or WA6.  The WA3 will make the 880s more tube like than the WA6. 
  
  Quote: 





ken rosenberg said:


> What would be more suitable for a DT 880 600Ω, WA3 or WA6?
> 
> I've read that the WA2 provides excellent synergy with the high impedance DT line, so I would _think_ the WA3 would be better, due to it's similarity with the WA2 as opposed to the WA6.


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## nigeljames

Quote: 





hodgjy said:


> If all you plan on ever driving are high impedance cans, WA2 or WA3 make the most sense because they are OTL designs.  If you want the flexibility of low impedance cans someday, the WA6 makes sense because of its output transformer.
> 
> Also, the whole WA2 vs WA3 question can be answered by your cans and budget.  If you drive the 880s, the WA3 is fine.  If you step up to the T1, you may benefit from the WA2.
> 
> I have the WA3 and love it.  I drove the 880s for a while before switching to the 990s.  I had no real complaints about driving the 880s, but sometimes, depending on the tube rolling combinations, the 880s sounded a tad cold and dry.  The 990s beef up a little more with some tubes pushing them.  Why am I telling you this?  Because the OTL amps sound more "tubey" than output transformer amps.  Depending on your listening preference, you need to answer this question, "Do you want more of a tube sound or solid state sound?". Then, you can pick the WA3 or WA6.  The WA3 will make the 880s more tube like than the WA6.


 

 Or get the Woo6se and have the best of both worlds.


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## Ken Rosenberg

Quote: 





hodgjy said:


> If all you plan on ever driving are high impedance cans, WA2 or WA3 make the most sense because they are OTL designs.  If you want the flexibility of low impedance cans someday, the WA6 makes sense because of its output transformer.
> 
> Also, the whole WA2 vs WA3 question can be answered by your cans and budget.  If you drive the 880s, the WA3 is fine.  If you step up to the T1, you may benefit from the WA2.
> 
> I have the WA3 and love it.  I drove the 880s for a while before switching to the 990s.  I had no real complaints about driving the 880s, but sometimes, depending on the tube rolling combinations, the 880s sounded a tad cold and dry.  The 990s beef up a little more with some tubes pushing them.  Why am I telling you this?  Because the OTL amps sound more "tubey" than output transformer amps.  Depending on your listening preference, you need to answer this question, "Do you want more of a tube sound or solid state sound?". Then, you can pick the WA3 or WA6.  The WA3 will make the 880s more tube like than the WA6.


 

 I really appreciate your help.
   
  I've never owned a tube amp before so I'm wary about the "tube" sound. If I only plan on using the amp for high impedance, dynamic headphones (DT 880 at this stage, but perhaps HD 800 or T1 in the future) would the WA3 be the best choice of the two? My biggest concerns are the WA6 sounding better with the aforementioned headphones, and the WA3 sounding too tube-like.


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## kiertijai

I don't know whether you have posted your comments on the Eddie Current amplifiers or not.
  I only see the Eddie Current Lunchbox II in your lists.
  What is your opinion on Eddie Current Zana Deux (you mentioned briefly that you have heard only in
  the meeting but that's long time ago), ZDT , Balancing Act and the new super 7?


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## Skylab

I have never had an Eddie Current product (other than the Lunchbox) for review, although I own and very much enjoy the EC Transcription phono preamp.


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## hodgjy

I have the WA3 so I can only comment on that one.  You can make it more solid state like with the right tube combination.  You can also swing the other direction and make it bloom in full tube glory.  I wouldn't be too scared about being locked into a particular sound because the beauty of tube amps is the ability to roll and get the sound you prefer.  They are the most flexible amps out there.
   
  I would say your best bet is to go to a meet and listen to some amps before dropping serious bank on an amp you're unsure about.
  
  Quote: 





ken rosenberg said:


> I really appreciate your help.
> 
> I've never owned a tube amp before so I'm wary about the "tube" sound. If I only plan on using the amp for high impedance, dynamic headphones (DT 880 at this stage, but perhaps HD 800 or T1 in the future) would the WA3 be the best choice of the two? My biggest concerns are the WA6 sounding better with the aforementioned headphones, and the WA3 sounding too tube-like.


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## Rawrbington

just throw a 5998 in the WA3 and watch it rock the crap out of you 600 ohm beyers!
  lots of synergy in that combo


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## hodgjy

That's what I run in mine.  It's a nice balance of solid state control with the tube mid tones bloom.  For a very solid state type sound, you can roll in a Sylvania 7236.  This tube is pretty clinical and has good bass slam.  It's also Woo's standard in-house upgrade.  For full tube glow and bloom, roll in an RCA 6AS7G.  This one is cheap and available in mountains.
  
  Quote: 





rawrbington said:


> just throw a 5998 in the WA3 and watch it rock the crap out of you 600 ohm beyers!
> lots of synergy in that combo


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## Lallas

Hello Skylab
  I've sent some personal messages to you,but just now I see that you have no time to answer them.
  I always read what you have to say about many things, and I really appreciate your words.
  Before buying Triad Audio L3 I read and listened to your words about it.
  Now in some few days I will go down to Stockholm,that is if the cold leaves this part of the country so the trains can start running again, to listen to Audeze LCD-2.
  I've never listened to open headphones before.
  I've read much about them and I'm really excited about it!
  If I like them I will start running them with my Triad Audio L3's,but when more money is coming in,I might have to  sell an old tibetan horseshoe ring in 22-23 carats gold with a big red coral,
  then I will look for a new amp.
  I've read much about this to,and just now I'm very interested in  Darkvoice 337 and Schiit Lyr. Moneywise they suit me. And also what I've read about them.
  I have read what you say about Darkvoice 337,and being a dark person myself,  I really like:
  "Having finally done so, the 337 is a terrific sounding amp. It has an engaging, dynamic, organic, and slightly dark sound. It has an ultra-wide and deep soundstage, which is well defined. Bass is powerful and punchy Better detail than everything other than the SP Extreme. Female vocals are just spine-chillingly beautiful through it. I use it mostly with the JVC DX1000, and this is a heavenly match, providing truly world-class sound."
  I can buy it just for these words!
  But....what advice would you give me?
  Darkvoice 337 or Schiit Lyr?
  I havn't seen a review by you on the Lyr?
  But I would REALLY appreciate some words about both of them and maybe something why I should choose one of then for my Audeze LCD-2
                                                            Hope
                                                               Lalle


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## Skylab

For the LCD-2 specifically, the Lyr is going to be the better choice - the DV 337 is not going to deliver enough power into the 50 ohm load of the LCD-2 to work ideally.


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## googleli

Skylab, any luck with the Liquid Fire yet? I have come into owning it for a couple of months now and couldn't be happier. IMO it has surpassed the Leben in some aspects but I still prefer the Leben for soft acoustic female vocal. For pop and rock I definitely prefer the Liquid Fire now. Btw I am using vintage Telefenken CCa tubes for it. A quad costed me over half of the price of the Liquid Fire itself. But the sound is just sublime.


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## Skylab

No, I haven't been trying to get one either - I'm not doing any reviewing for the time being...too busy at work.


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## Bobsama

Skylab: thanks for compiling this list! I only wish you'd have reviewed Little Dot gear. I just got a LD MK IV and I think it sounds pretty great.


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## Ken Rosenberg

How does the Elekit TU-882 fare against the Woo Audio WA6? I would really appreciate anyone's impressions if they've had experience with both.


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## daigo

Quote: 





ken rosenberg said:


> How does the Elekit TU-882 fare against the Woo Audio WA6? I would really appreciate anyone's impressions if they've had experience with both.


 

 I've only heard the WA6 briefly at meets, and with headphones that I don't own (HD800 and T1).  I do think the WA6 is a better amp than the TU882 if you want a wide soundstage with clear instrument separation (especially for orchestral music).  The bass extended a little lower on the WA6 than my TU-882 as well. 
   
  I think the TU-882 has a more forward presentation of music, with the mids slightly more emphasized and silky, but with nice depth to the sound.


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## sonq

Quote: 





daigo said:


> I've only heard the WA6 briefly at meets, and with headphones that I don't own (HD800 and T1).  I do think the WA6 is a better amp than the TU882 if you want a wide soundstage with clear instrument separation (especially for orchestral music).  The bass extended a little lower on the WA6 than my TU-882 as well.
> 
> I think the TU-882 has a more forward presentation of music, with the mids slightly more emphasized and silky, but with nice depth to the sound.


 

 I'm powering my HD800 with WA6. Sounds pretty good with good acoustic music recordings: smooth, warm, good sound staging and fair amount of harmonics coming through. However, low treble still a touch fierce with the average non-audiophile rock recordings.


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## sp1200

Hi Everyone,
   
I'm looking at a pair of AKG 702's and trying to decide on an amp to pair them with.
   
I'd like an opinion on the Antique Sound Labs MG HEAD DT OTL MKIII and the Audiotailor Jade.  
   
If they were being sold at roughly the same price which would be a better choice?


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## jude

Tentatively locked at OP's request.


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