# NAD amp + Dynaudio audience speakers treble troubles



## Lisa

Hi,

 I've been looking for a good speaker system lately and ended up with the Dynaudio audience 52 speakers and a NAD C350 amp.

 Today I got them and I don't like the way the treble sounds. It's shrill or harsch or whatever is the right word to call it. And there's a lot of sibilance. 

 I wasn't able to go and listen in stores cause of a serious illness and therefore had to rely on information on the internet. I was led to believe that this combination would have a neutral sound so that's why I chose it. 

 The room is very small and I listen in the "nearfield?" so that might have something to it.

 Turning down the treble helps a bit but adds other sonic signatures I don't like.

 The store's got an exchange policy so I'm thinking if burn-in won't fix this I'll use that policy.
 But I don't know if the problem is in the amp or the speakers. And I don't know what to choose to get something more to my liking.
 I'm also limited to the brands the store supplies.
 By head I know they've got Kef an B&W...
 I wish I could name them all to make it easier. 

 I recently got the chance to listen to some Grado sr-60 and liked their sound a lot. I know they're known for their upfront sound and brightness but they didn't have that harschness to them. I liked that they were musical.

 I would appreciate some help 

 Lisa.


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## dd3mon

With Dynaudio's soft dome tweeters, I rarely hear them described as "shrill" or "bright". Let them burn-in, if the problems continue I'd look at your source or amp. Danes need ridiculous amounts of power to sound at their best (really bring out the bass) - but should do fairly well with what you've got. (I don't know what you're using for a source..)

 -dd3mon


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## Lisa

A NAD CD player C541i as source and because of the fact that I allready picked out two NAD components I also got a NAD tuner.


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## Wodgy

Welcome to the complicated world of speakers 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 First, you made the right choice by choosing soft dome tweeters, since they're typically much less harsh than metal dome tweeters.

 My guess is that the harshness you're hearing is coming from one of five sources:

 1) the speaker's crossover -- some people are very irritated by the sound of a speaker's crossover; I know this is especially true for me if the crossover is around 2 kHz - 2.8 kHz, even really expensive speakers crossed in that range still irritate me

 2) nearfield listening -- many speakers don't sound good in the nearfield (too harsh); there are "studio monitors" designed for nearfield listening, but they're still pretty harsh; I know it sounds silly, but if you're listening in the nearfield you're better off with a nice set of computer speakers that includes a subwoofer, since these are really optimized for listening to music (as opposed to monitoring) in the nearfield

 3) room acoustics -- if your room has a lot of reflective surfaces (shiny walls, hardwood floors) and is small, you'll get odd treble reflections that sound bad

 4) your amplifier -- you may be hearing "solid state" artifacts; honestly, though, I've owned the NAD C350 in the past and it's one of the smoothest solid state amps around (smoother than the current C320BEE by a large margin) so I doubt that's it; you might want to try tubes, but that gets expensive fast

 5) your source -- could have an unwanted treble emphasis, but this isn't likely since the C541i is known to be fairly dark and smooth.

 Honestly, 1 and 2 are the most probable. If you decide to not keep these speakers, I'd suggest just getting a nice 2.1 set of computer speakers. You'll save a bundle of money this way too, and you'll be able to get rid of the C350.


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## stymie miasma

I have been using an NAD C740 Receiver with some PSB Image 2B monitor speakers. The PSB speakers have a metal dome, so I was a little concerned about harsh or fatiguing treble, but I have yet to experience any problems. That said, I have not been able to get enough time to listen for more than 2 hours per sitting. 

 What I don't like thus far is the midrange, which to my ears seems a little recessed. Actually, it could very well be neutral, seeing as my 'reference' is a pair of Grado SR60s 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 In any case, I find myself looking for a bit more out of the mids. I think a lot of my problems stem from the fact that my source is a crappy discman (1 bit DAC), so the search is on for a source that will provide my with luscious mids and possibly some very smooth and unfatiguing treble, should my speakers start giving me grief. 

 Back to your problem, from what I have read, NAD can have a tendency to sound bright in some systems. As I said, I have not had any such problems in my system, but then again, several people on these boards have claimed that NAD and PSB work well together.

 Perhaps you can organise to audition the B&Ws in your home. I listened to some 601.S3s and they sounded very smooth. That said, there was something about them that I did not like. As a novice in these arenas, I could not put my finger specifically on what that was, but it was certainly subtle and possibly something I could get used to in the long term. I am sorry to say I have no experience with Dynaudio. 

 Good luck, and do keep us updated with your progress. Is there any chance interconnects are to blame??

_Edit: Wodgy raised some excellent points, and possibly refuted my impression that NAD can sound bright in some systems. Hopefully someone else will be able to chime in here. _


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## Lisa

Quote:


 _Originally posted by Wodgy _
*Welcome to the complicated world of speakers 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





 1) the speaker's crossover -- some people are very irritated by the sound of a speaker's crossover; I know this is especially true for me if the crossover is around 2 kHz - 2.8 kHz, even really expensive speakers crossed in that range still irritate me* 
 

 As you said, it is complicated. I don't even know what this means 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





  Quote:


 *Honestly, 1 and 2 are the most probable. If you decide to not keep these speakers, I'd suggest just getting a nice 2.1 set of computer speakers. You'll save a bundle of money this way too, and you'll be able to get rid of the C350. * 
 

 Explain that to me. I can hook computer speaker up to a CD player without an amp?
 And another problem occurs. This store has an exchange policy, not a return policy.


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## Lisa

Quote:


 _Originally posted by stymie miasma _
 Is there any chance interconnects are to blame??

 

 Don't know. The guys from the store brought it here and hooked everything up. They used cables they say are decent. Cost me ~$4 per meter.(almost 3 feet)


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## Wodgy

Quote:


 _Originally posted by Lisa _
*As you said, it is complicated. I don't even know what this means 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


* 
 

The crossover is the part of the speaker behind the scenes that decides whether a given sound should go to the tweeter (the high frequency driver) or the woofer (the low frequency driver). Ideally, a crossover would not be audible, but in reality there are compromises that make some more audible than others, but not necessarily to everyone. Most people agree that the quality of the crossover is as important as the quality of the drivers themselves.

  Quote:


 *
 Explain that to me. I can hook computer speaker up to a CD player without an amp?
 And another problem occurs. This store has an exchange policy, not a return policy. * 
 

Yes, computer speakers generally have amplifiers built in. Not all, but most. Some even come with a remote control for changing the volume. If you want to use both your tuner and CD player (both good, incidentally), you would need an input switcher, but you can pick one of those up at various places for cheap.

 Probably the best thing to do would be to try the exchange policy first. If you find that you can't be satisfied, you could always sell the speakers online (here or eBay or Audiogon), so don't worry too much.


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## dudlew

Might I suggest checking the interconnects and cabling? 


 My brother has a B&W cdm7 or 9t and has a C350 and a rotel RCD 951. He had bought some $100+ monster cables to connect them and the sound was bright and not well meshed. 

 He tried my brother's DNM reson speaker cable and the sound was more cohesive, open, smoother, and much less fatiguing with better bass weight. 

 Te cable can make a big difference in this league of components, so give that a look.

 D


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## wallijonn

try plugging the interconnects "the other way". that is to say, take one cable and swap the ends. then repeat on the other cable, take the cd out plug and change it with the pre-amp in end (changing the cable ends).

 this is because some cables have their shields soldered on only one side. you should listen to only one channel at a time. why? what if one cable is "the correct way" and the other cable is not?

 then try a cheap set of interconnects and see if the sound changes. 

 if it still bothers you, get another set of speakers. going in and replacing noisey diodes with fast switching diodes is not something i suggest to people. (make sure that all fluoescent lights are turned off in the house in case it's line noise). speaking of which, do you have the equipment connected to an over- voltage protector? they sometimes introduce noise. try it without the arrestor. (you can also try other outlets - as some have bad wiring in them). (it gives you a chance to listen in other room configurations). obviously listen when the computer is not turned on. the switching power supply may have noise travelling back into the outlets.


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## mEtal

Lisa, my opinion follows more of what dd3mon had suggested. That is, I think it's the amp. Dynaudio products in general need a good high current amp to drive them properly. Like typical high-end headphones, you will probably spend about the same amount of cash on the amp as the speakers. Hopefully you will feel better soon so you can go to a nice audio store and demo some of their amps or other speakers. Good luck.


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## Lisa

Thirst, about the interconnects. I've plugged in my headphones in the headphone out of the amp and played a CD.
 The NADamp+CDplayer give a darker sound than the headphone out of my PCDP. So if the interconnect are making the speakers bright souldn't they make the headphones bright too?
 Or is this a conclusion that cannot be made???
 I'm new to this so I'm just trying. Might be doing stupid things...


  Quote:


 _Originally posted by wallijonn _
 try plugging the interconnects "the other way". that is to say, take one cable and swap the ends. then repeat on the other cable, take the cd out plug and change it with the pre-amp in end (changing the cable ends). 
 

This I understand. 

  Quote:


 this is because some cables have their shields soldered on only one side. you should listen to only one channel at a time. why? what if one cable is "the correct way" and the other cable is not?

 then try a cheap set of interconnects and see if the sound changes. 
 

Their shields???
 Sorry as I said I'm new to this and I'm starting to figure out what everything means. 
 Are you talking about the cables from amp to speaker aswell?

  Quote:


 if it still bothers you, get another set of speakers. going in and replacing noisey diodes with fast switching diodes is not something i suggest to people. (make sure that all fluoescent lights are turned off in the house in case it's line noise). speaking of which, do you have the equipment connected to an over- voltage protector? 
 

A what?  Quote:


 they sometimes introduce noise. try it without the arrestor. (you can also try other outlets - as some have bad wiring in them). (it gives you a chance to listen in other room configurations). obviously listen when the computer is not turned on. the switching power supply may have noise travelling back into the outlets. 
 

The computer is in another room, on another fuse I think. Now I start to think it might be on the same fuse. But I already listened to the speakers when the computer was off.


 I want to thank you guys for all the suggestions and help. I'm at a total loss here, being new to this stuff and I appreciate your help a lot!


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## Lisa

Quote:


 _Originally posted by mEtal _
 Lisa, my opinion follows more of what dd3mon had suggested. That is, I think it's the amp. Dynaudio products in general need a good high current amp to drive them properly. Like typical high-end headphones, you will probably spend about the same amount of cash on the amp as the speakers. 
 

 It is a good high current amp. I even got the one with 'a bit more' then I needed for a small room so if I want to move it in future to a larger room , I won't need to replace the amp.  Quote:


 Hopefully you will feel better soon so you can go to a nice audio store and demo some of their amps or other speakers. Good luck. 
 

 Thanks! 
 It will need a miracle but you'll never know.


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## CRESCENDOPOWER

When all else fails get an overly smooth, and rolled off cheap tube amp.


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## dudlew

The Dynaudio speakers are quite revealing and more or less neutral speakers as far as my ears tell me from the audience 50s my brother has. He is using a less powerful amp than you are, a Sony es 3000 with the mathcing shoe box size es 3000 cd player. I dont think the power is a problem.
 Also the sonic character of the headphone section may have a different sonic character than the speaker amplifier and hence the difference in sound. 

 check out revies on your interconnects, see what others say about there sonic character and do the same for the speaker cable. It may not be soley a cable problem, it could be something else, but at least try other cables first before throwing out the amp. As I said before, your system is good enough for you to hear the difference. In my cheapy seperates hodge podge system I hear the difference in cables, even the cheapo ones, so with your higher res system, it could be more pronounced

 My 0.5 cents.

 D


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## Lisa

Just called the store to let them know that there is a problem so I might use their exchange policy.
 They said to let the speakers burn in for 5 more days before changing to others. I think I'll do that. But in the mean time I'll look into solutions and what other speakers I might exchange them for.
 The store supplies: 
 B&W
 Kef
 Mission
 Dali.

 Maybe more, but it was kind of hard to get that info out of them over the "Let it burn in first" comments.

 Other amps they suggested were:
 Rotel
 Denon
 Arcan (arkan?)

 Hope got it all spelled right.

 [rant] 
 I hate not being able to go to a store to listen or buy some other cables and interconnects. To have my mother do this stuff for me while she know less about it then I do. I cannot even change the interconnect and cables myself.
 It's so frustrating to have to ask someone to do all this stuff for you when you know she doesn't like to do it. It's not her hobby.
 Everything takes forever this way.
 Sorry for this, I had to let it out.
 [/rant]


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## Hirsch

Quote:


 _Originally posted by Lisa _
*
 The store's got an exchange policy so I'm thinking if burn-in won't fix this I'll use that policy.
* 
 

I think that you're on the right track. Speakers right out of the box are very likely to sound completely different after they've had some playing time. This is also true of the cables you're using. So, the best approach is to take things as slowly as the store will let you. Running the system on a tuner 24/7 is a decent way to accelerate burn-in. Harshness is actually normal in a new setup, so any panic is likely premature. I think the store gave you good advice to let the speakers burn in.


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## Lisa

Well it won't be 24/7 cause they're in my bedroom and i value my sleep 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 But they're playing all day.
 You really think that harschness that make you think of nails across a blackboard will go away. (Yessssss it isssss that bad 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)


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## CRESCENDOPOWER

Quote:


 _Originally posted by Lisa _
*Well it won't be 24/7 cause they're in my bedroom and i value my sleep 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But they're playing all day.
 You really think that harschness that make you think of nails across a blackboard will go away. (Yessssss it isssss that bad 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) * 
 

Are the speakers located very close to the back wall? If they are try pushing them out into the room some. I still think you may want to look into something like this:
http://www.vacuumtube.com/JD%20102b.htm


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## SuperGiraffe

Hmmm . . . I know that a lot of the people suggested interconnect change, but I might suggest a speaker cable change instead. Without spending a lot of money, I would make sure you have at least 12 gauge stranded, high quality copper cable. My Dyn 60s (basically floorstanding version of your speaker) sounded quite a bit richer and fuller when I upgraded from 16 gauge to 10 gauge (and now I'm on 9 gauge) speaker cable. Without spending a whole lot of money, Monster Cable's "New Monster Cable" should do well. It retails for about $1.50 per foot in the U.S., possibly (probably) more in Europe. In my experience, it does not have the oxidization problems the older "Original Monster Cable" ($1.00 per foot, U.S.) has. The Monster Cable seems to have a slightly warm sonic signature as well, which might help with the harshness.

 The Dynaudios do take a while to break in, unfortunately, but I don't think mine ever sounded harsh the way you described -- more like they started out sounding "congested" or closed in, and gradually opened up more. 

 If the speakers don't break in well for you, I can only give some other suggestions for replacements: In my experience, and IMHO, the B&W 600 series speakers are quite bright and sibilant; with B&W, I personally don't care for their product until the CDM-series, which are quite nice, really. Maybe you could splurge for something from the CDM series? I really don't have a lot of experience with Kef in this price range, so I can't suggest anything, by them. Missions generally have a pretty relaxed sound, so these might work for you as well. I also don't have ay experience with Dali at all, so I'm pretty much useless there as well.

 As for the amps, it has been my experience that of Rotel, Arcam, Denon and NAD, that NAD would be the least harsh of these brands. But different models by the same manufacturer can indeed differ, so I'm not sure. 

 Good luck, and hopefully everything will work out!


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## Lisa

All this information needs a while to sink in since it's all new to me (I'm starting to sound like a broken record 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) But the way I see it is that I could try something with the interconnects, change the cables or, if nothing helps, get other speakers. The amp is probably ok. I think...  Quote:


 _Originally posted by SuperGiraffe _

 The Dynaudios do take a while to break in, unfortunately, but I don't think mine ever sounded harsh the way you described -- more like they started out sounding "congested" or closed in, and gradually opened up more. 
 

 That's the way the midrange and bass sound to me. Like it needs to open up. But the treble. When someone speaks sound like they have a ssssspeaking dissssorder. 

  Quote:


 If the speakers don't break in well for you, I can only give some other suggestions for replacements: In my experience, and IMHO, the B&W 600 series speakers are quite bright and sibilant; with B&W, I personally don't care for their product until the CDM-series, which are quite nice, really. Maybe you could splurge for something from the CDM series? 
 

 how much do they cost approximately? 
  Quote:


 Good luck, and hopefully everything will work out! 
 

 Thanks!


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## dudlew

Just my personal opinion but.................




*AVOID MONSTER CABLE LIKE THE PLAGUE!!!* 


 as in my first post, from that experience of my brother i am not
 monster fan, but you may like them. It is a pity you cant do some listening in stores as that is the best way to get what you want. 

 You have all good components that should go well together. My eldest brother tried my other brother's danes in his setup and even though his rotel player is a bit bright, (he has a RCD951 and a NAD C340), the sound was fine, not fatiguing at all. it was more detailed and natural than the speakers he had then which are the speakers I have now, the B&W 601. If after all the experimentation and time you can muster doesnt improve things then look for another amp or even other speakers?? Its possible that the sound is just not for you!!!

 D


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## SuperGiraffe

Quote:


 That's the way the midrange and bass sound to me. Like it needs to open up. But the treble. When someone speaks sound like they have a ssssspeaking dissssorder. 
 

That really does not sound like any Dynaudio speaker that I have ever heard -- one of the things I like about the Dyn soft-dome tweeter is how clean the "s" sounds are reproduced. No sibilance at all! Try to use the NAD's balance controls to see if just the left or the right speaker has the problem. Could the speakers possibly be wired out of phase? This means the the positive (+) and negative (-) terminals of one of the speakers or amp is reversed. It could be worth looking into. I know that these were "professionally" set up, but mistakes happen. My fiancee's car stereo was installed "professionally" with the front door speakers out of phase, and I have been to several stereo shops where one or more of the speakers on display were wired out of phase.


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## Lisa

Quote:


 _Originally posted by SuperGiraffe _
*That really does not sound like any Dynaudio speaker that I have ever heard -- one of the things I like about the Dyn soft-dome tweeter is how clean the "s" sounds are reproduced. No sibilance at all! Try to use the NAD's balance controls to see if just the left or the right speaker has the problem. Could the speakers possibly be wired out of phase? This means the the positive (+) and negative (-) terminals of one of the speakers or amp is reversed. It could be worth looking into. I know that these were "professionally" set up, but mistakes happen. My fiancee's car stereo was installed "professionally" with the front door speakers out of phase, and I have been to several stereo shops where one or more of the speakers on display were wired out of phase. * 
 

 What are + and - terminals?
 Could you just describe it in understandeble words please?
 Thanks.

 -edit-
 Tried the balancssse controlssss and both sssspeakersss ssssound like thisss.


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## Wodgy

Just my two cents... changing interconnects or speaker cables almost never changes the fundamental sound of a system. I've tried playing around with wires with systems I've disliked, and sometimes it makes a difference and satisfies me for a while, but ultimately I still end up hearing the same flaws, just in a slightly different way.

 The NAD C350's headphone jack is powered by the same circuit that powers the speakers (via a voltage-divider network), so if you find the sound out of the headphone jack to be acceptable, it's probably safe to rule out your source, amp, and interconnects.

 My advice: do let your speakers finish burning in, but if you still don't like them, don't feel ashamed about trying something else.


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## davidcotton

Quote:


 _Originally posted by Lisa _
*What are + and - terminals?
 Could you just describe it in understandeble words please?
 Thanks.

 -edit-
 Tried the balancssse controlssss and both sssspeakersss ssssound like thisss. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


* 
 

Positive or negative. In others the Red plug on the ic cable or speaker cable goes to + and the black goes to -.

 One other (probably stupid) question, are you using decent speaker stands or do you have them plonked on the desk or floor. If possible get some in if you haven't, these make a big difference to small speakers.


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## Lisa

Quote:


 _Originally posted by davidcotton _
*Positive or negative. In others the Red plug on the ic cable or speaker cable goes to + and the black goes to -.* 
 

*
 I checked this yesterday. The red connects to the red alright. 
 When you stand behind a speaker is the red suppose to be to your right?
 When I looked at the back of the amps it looks like this:
 red black black red 
 Is that ok?


  Quote:


 One other (probably stupid) question, are you using decent speaker stands or do you have them plonked on the desk or floor. If possible get some in if you haven't, these make a big difference to small speakers. 
 

* No not stupid. I don't have speaker stand. I know not good. But the room is too small for it... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Can this really make a speaker sound so harsch?


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## Wodgy

Quote:


 _Originally posted by Lisa _
 [BI don't have speaker stand. I know not good. But the room is too small for it... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Can this really make a speaker sound so harsch? [/B] 
 

No, generally it's the opposite. Putting speakers on the floor/close to the wall almost always increases the amount of bass, not change the treble. People put speakers on stands to eliminate bass&midbass wall/floor reflections and thus improve imaging. Speaker stands can also eliminate resonances, but again that primarily affects the bass and midrange, not high frequencies.


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## stymie miasma

Quote:


 _Originally posted by Lisa _
 I checked this yesterday. The red connects to the red alright. 
 When you stand behind a speaker is the red suppose to be to your right?
 When I looked at the back of the amps it looks like this:
 red black black red 
 Is that ok? 
 

I think you mentioned that your system was set-up by the people that your purchased the equipment from, so hopefully they wired the speakers correctly. For peace-of-mind, you can check for yourself:

 If your speaker cable is colour-coded (ie: each cable has a red and a black cable inside the main jacket), then you should ensure that the red cable is plugged into the red terminal on BOTH your amp and your speaker. This is a bit trickier to ensure if you are using lower-end monster cable for example, where you need to look for a distinguishing grey stripe on the outer jacket. In this case, the grey stripe does not signifiy anything, but simply allows you to ensure that the grey-striped cable is plugged into the same coloured terminal at both the amp and speaker. 

 As for the [Red-Black]-[Black-Red] configuration of speaker terminals on the back of your amp, that is the same as my NAD C740. Use the left hand [Red-Black] pair to power your left speaker and use the right hand [Black-Red] pair to drive your right speaker. 

 Hope this helps!


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## bundee1

Another couple of things to throw at you (sorry):

 -I have an arcam a65 plus integrated thats 40w/channel
 the sound is warm and punchy, but I dont know if it has enough juice for your dynaudios. Maybe something higher up the line. 

 -If you want to change the speakers, Mission or Acoustic Energy evo 1 are smoother budget speakers that should work well with the NADs

 -last but not least, hanging tapestries on the wall can cut down on harshness. Clap a couple of times around the room. If you hear nasty shrill echos, they could be contributing to the problem. 

 Good luck with everything.


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## CRESCENDOPOWER

Moving the speakers out into the room will effect the treble, midrange, and bass; try it for yourself, and see. No matter what you buy with your current setup, and placement you are simply wasting your money.


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## carlo

Lisa,

 Its a shame the NAD and Dyns aren't working out for you - the problems you describe are very strange to me and I really think it points to placement issues. Since you're so limited in that and if the Audience 52s aren't taming down its time to look at different speakers. Otherwise try playing with the angle of the speakers relative to your position (pointing them so the tweeters aren't coming right at your ears will tame their response) and look at your reflection points. If you don't remember (and if you care to try) suggestions on what to do with your room were in your original post on this system. 

 Your amp is almost certainly not your problem - unless its defective or something. In fact I think you could get away with the c320 in your room. Wodgy's advice is worth following I think (although in the case of the Dyns I doubt the x-over is your problem). Another speaker to try, overpriced really but (for some) attractive and not fussy with placement is the B&W Leisure LM-1 - variety of colors and stuff. 

 Good luck.


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## wallijonn

Lisa,

 since they were installed by the store, why not have someone come over and check them out?

 do you hear the "sss" sound when nothing is playing? at what volume level?

 the fact that you say that it seems to be only on vocals would point to something in the 2k - 5k range. someone from the store should be able to hear it readily and possibly fix it. 

 if you power everything off, and reseat all the RCA cables, and then power up everything (make sure the volume control is turned down), is the "hiss" still there?

 did you try other RCA interconnect cables?


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## Lisa

RCA cables, are those the interconnect?

 As for an update. 
 I put the system in a different room so the burn in can be 24/7 and I could hear if the trouble was with the acoustics of the small room.
 Well, no. The speakers are further away from the wall now and the room cannot possibly have wall and floor reflection since it so full of stuff it makes a storage room look empty 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 The sibilance is still there. Sound is a bit different but I think that's cause there're standing on a huge desk and the bass resonates there. 

 wallijonn,
 it's not just vocals. Cimbles and sounds like that sound very metally (you understand?). I had a bit of a toothache and boy do you not want to hear that metal sound then. Made me think of tin foil between your fillings. Not as bad of course but it sure reminded me off it.

 For now I'll just let them burn in for the rest of the weekend. After that i'll speak to the store again. I was thinking to also try out another cable. Just buy 1 meter and connect one speaker with it and see if it's makes any difference If it doen't I haven't spend to much money for nothing. I did not try other interconnects yet. Don't know if they are for sale in my town. And my mother is very busy so don't want to put her through a lot of trouble before it's absoluteley neccecary.

 Again, 
 Thanks for all the advise!
 Lisa.


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## becomethemould

can you post a picture of your setup? i had huge problems when i was shopping for speakers. the rooms in the house just sounded terrible. the lounge room is wood, and one side of room is glass windows. in my grandma's room, i moved everything out when she was overseas 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 the speakers sounded a bit muffled because the room was a bit small. i think it was 4m by 3m. the listening position was around 2m back. i was listening to the equinox solstice, australian speakers, check my sig 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 the designer, rick says they are optimised for 2.5m

 i had a listen to dynaudio audience 42s too, the equinox were better 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 but i guess since you are in europe, they probably cost a little less than here.

 here was my room setup


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## wallijonn

Lisa,

 yes, the interconnects are the RCA cables.

 some specialty rca cables have 3 wires in them, usually a shield and two wires or two shields and one wire. to lower noise, a lot of them connect the outer shield at one end only, to ground, and at the other end connect bothe shields or 1 shield and 1 wire to ground.

 some people say that it makes a difference shield side the shield is connected to. which is why i suggested that you swap thew ends of each RCA cable around. most of these specialty cables are marked at one end, usually with some sort of marker, label, or colour.

 if your RCA cables (interconnects) are silver wire based, they could be giving you a brighter sound. so if you have some old, cheap, inexpensive RCA cables around (from an old stereo or video or dvd) then try them in the place of your expensive rca cable interconnects, and see if the sound changes.


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## TimSchirmer

Who told you NAD amps were neutral? They always sound colored to me (sometimes in a good way, others not)

 I might get a dedicated power/pre setup them sometime soon.


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## CRESCENDOPOWER

Quote:


 _Originally posted by Lisa _
*RCA cables, are those the interconnect?

 As for an update. 
 I put the system in a different room so the burn in can be 24/7 and I could hear if the trouble was with the acoustics of the small room.
 Well, no. The speakers are further away from the wall now and the room cannot possibly have wall and floor reflection since it so full of stuff it makes a storage room look empty 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The sibilance is still there. Sound is a bit different but I think that's cause there're standing on a huge desk and the bass resonates there.* 
 

You are still going to have problems until you put the speakers on stands. And, of course you are going to have reflection problems still, because the reflections are comming from all the "stuff" that is in the room.


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## Lisa

becomethemould,
 Sorry cannot post pics of the room, don't have a digital camera 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 wallijonn,
 I've tried all you interconnect suggestions. Switched them like you told me. Didn't make any difference.
 And I remembered I have a AUX cable lying here so I connected it to the amp and at the other side my mp3 player. 
 Put both the NAD tuner and the tuner on the mp3 player on the same channel so I could sort of A/B them. The mp3player sounded a bit less clear as was to be expected. But they both gave a very simulair sound. Treble was still far to harsch. 

 So that leaves the cables or I just don't like the way those speakers are supposed to sound. I dunno.. Still on burn in.


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## Wodgy

Quote:


 _Originally posted by CRESCENDOPOWER _
*And, of course you are going to have reflection problems still, because the reflections are comming from all the "stuff" that is in the room.* 
 

But those are diffuse field reflections; they won't affect the sound.


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## Wodgy

Quote:


 _Originally posted by Lisa _
*So that leaves the cables or I just don't like the way those speakers are supposed to sound. I dunno.. Still on burn in. * 
 

I'd get rid of these speakers and try new ones. Speaker sound is a very personal thing, and what might sound good to a lot of other people may sound very bad to you.

 I've been in a similar situation myself. It took me many pairs of speakers to get something I liked. For instance, many people on this board really like the PSB Stratus series, and they're on the Stereophile recommended components list. But for me they were slightly too bright (not as bad as some speakers though) and the crossover sound was just incredibly irritating to me. Loved by a lot of people (and pretty expensive), but just not to me. (And I was using the official PSB Stratus stands.) Don't be afraid to try new speakers. Cables alter flavor, but they won't change the fundamental sound of a speaker.


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## Lisa

Quote:


 _Originally posted by CRESCENDOPOWER _
*You are still going to have problems until you put the speakers on stands. And, of course you are going to have reflection problems still, because the reflections are comming from all the "stuff" that is in the room. * 
 

I KNOW it won't be PERFECT!!!!
 I know the best thing to do is put my speakers on proper stands in the middle of a meadow. 

 In order for me to put them on stand I have to make a whole in my bed, my matrass and the covers, hoping I won't knock it over in my sleep.

 About the reflections. Funny how the reflection in a four times bigger room with mostly curtains to reflect to give the same problems as if it were a smooth surfaced wall. 

 I'm sorry if I come across angree, but please, in your previous post you told me I wasted years of savings. And for your information. I did this because I wanted to have something I could enjoy before I might not be able to enjoy anything anymore in the future. 
 Wouldn't you try to make the best out of a very bad situation? Even if you knew you couldn't get it _perfect_?


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## Lisa

Quote:


 _Originally posted by Wodgy _
*I'd get rid of these speakers and try new ones. Speaker sound is a very personal thing, and what might sound good to a lot of other people may sound very bad to you.

 I've been in a similar situation myself. It took me many pairs of speakers to get something I liked. For instance, many people on this board really like the PSB Stratus series, and they're on the Stereophile recommended components list. But for me they were slightly too bright (not as bad as some speakers though) and the crossover sound was just incredibly irritating to me. Loved by a lot of people (and pretty expensive), but just not to me. (And I was using the official PSB Stratus stands.) Don't be afraid to try new speakers. Cables alter flavor, but they won't change the fundamental sound of a speaker. * 
 

 Yeah, I think I will. 
 The store opens on tuesday and then I'll get in contact with them. I think burn in might help to make them sound a bit more open. But I can't imagine them changing sound completely. I mean they have been burning in for quite some time now and the problems I come across are still there.


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## CRESCENDOPOWER

Quote:


 _Originally posted by Wodgy _
*But those are diffuse field reflections; they won't affect the sound. * 
 

Oh really, ever had a home theater system where the television is between the two front speakers, and then you move the TV out of the way, and it sounds completely different. 
 Believe me when I say that a room full of junk WILL effect the sound, and most of the time it will be for the worse.


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## Wodgy

Quote:


 _Originally posted by CRESCENDOPOWER _
*Oh really, ever had a home theater system where the television is between the two front speakers, and then you move the TV out of the way, and it sounds completely different. 
 Believe me when I say that a room full of junk WILL effect the sound, and most of the time it will be for the worse. * 
 

A TV in between speakers is a flat surface that extends the baffles. I agree that can make a large difference. On the other hand, a room full of non-uniform sized objects (couch, chairs, vases, sculptures, etc.) creates diffuse field reflections. These won't significantly change the sound of a speaker, since in aggregate they approximate an anechoic chamber.

 In my experience most speakers sound better with lots of junk in the room. This is almost essential if you have hardwood floors.


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## MoLtoSoLo

If you want to try some new speakers, I would recommand to give the Triangle Titus 202 a try. To me, it's a wonderful speaker and the high is just "comfortable".


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## bundee1

Try the Acoustic Energy Evo 1 or Evo 3. They are budget speakers but match well with NAD components. They have soft dome tweeters and if you get the Evo 3 you wont need stands cause theyre floorstanders. Check them out they should be cheaper than the Dynaudios and with the money you get back you can get decent I.C.'s


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## James

I own the NAD C370 and Audience 52's, connected at a previous time with Monster speaker cables and driven by an old Marantz CC48 changer. I ended up with the amp after trying the NAD C350 (and my old NAD 320). A few observations.

 1. The Dynaudios, like most Dynaudios, have an upper-mid and treble forwardness. See Audience 40, Audience 50, Audience 62, Contour 1.3 Mk.II, and other places. But they are not as bright as some speakers I know! I bought them precisely because they had a sweet treble and that slight forwardness, lending extra life to female vocals, strings, and such. The Tituses are going to be more laid back in that region, but have a stronger treble. If you didn't like the Dynaudio's treble, I'm going to guess the Tituses will be over the top for you.

 2. Neither NAD (C350 nor C370) is bright, but they may come across as dry. This may accentuate treble problems further up the line, as in your CD player.

 3. Different CD players make a great difference, but not enough to completely "solve" the 52's forwardness (I didn't want to remove it entirely, anyway). My MSB DAC smooths the harshness of the Marantz. My portables are all smoother and less harsh in the treble, but they are also less dynamic, one of the great attributes of the 52's. The point is that the 52's are so revealing in the treble that you must have absolutely smooth sources.

 4. Cables can help with smoothing out harshness, but will not flatten frequency anomalies like the Dynaudio's forwardness.

 As always, changing the speakers will make the greatest difference. It's what I would have done if I didn't have trouble finding something else even near the 52's price range that had the same dynamics, detail, and neutrality. I understood that the first was at the expense of the last, but at this price, you MUST compromise somewhere. Alternatively, you can accept the Dynaudio's "liveliness" and attempt to lessen its overt effects through smoother CD players (or DACs), amps, and cables. This is the route I intend to take when I upgrade.

 Hope that helps. Good luck!


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## Lisa

Quote:


 _Originally posted by James _

 2. Neither NAD (C350 nor C370) is bright, but they may come across as dry. This may accentuate treble problems further up the line, as in your CD player. 
 

 What's dry sound like? 
 Cause I'm missing emotion in my music with the NAD- Dynaudio combination.
 Will this be a problem too if I change speakers? 

  Quote:


 Hope that helps. Good luck! [/B] 
 

Thanks!
 You did help quite a bit. 
 The way you decribe the Dynaudio speakers comes close to what I'm hearing. And now I'm even more sure that this just isn't the sound I'm looking for.


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## Wodgy

One more suggestion... when you talk to the store next time, mention that you're looking for speakers "on the warm side of neutral". This will help guide the salespeople to suggest things that will be closer to suiting your tastes.

 Also, be sure to mention that you're mostly listening to music, and not really interested in home theatre. In my experience, most "home theatre" rigs have main speakers that are on the bright side of neutral, and they use the subwoofer to compensate somewhat.


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## Orpheus

you know Lisa, have you heard other high-end speakers before? Dynaudio is supposed to represent some of the best modern speakers being made today. their speakers are in some of the most expensive recording studios in the world. their woofers are used in some of the most expensive loudspeakers in the world. but perhaps............ perhaps you aren't used to such "perfect" sound. i dunno what you've been listening to.... but many of the audiophile type speakers sound very different from modern ultra-high end "flat" response speakers. for instance, i have two pairs of high-end monitors. i have a NHTPro A-20 + B-20 system that probably sounds a lot like your Dynaudios--extremely detailed, and perhaps "harsh" sounding to those not used to the sound. I also have a pair of Sequerras, which are more of the audiophile type (exotic woofers, tweeters...) which sound much more natural, and that's why i use them for mixing. but i can tell you, the NHTPro's are probably much flatter than the Sequerras, which probably have a rolled off treble. but many people who have listened like the Sequerras for vocal type music.

 anyway, my point is, there's nothing wrong with your Dynaudios. and they really are some of the most advanced speakers in the world. Dynaudio probably invests MUCH MUCH MUCH more money into research than 99% of the small speaker companies out there. it's a very big company which makes many different types of speakers. but if you don't like them, that's fine too. which type of speaker is technically better?--well, by the numbers, probably your dynaudio. but let your ears be the judge.

 and no, don't expect burn-in to make much of a difference... and don't get hung up if you don't hear any difference between cables as 99.99% of the population won't.

 but the different speakers do sound different. don't like the dynaudios? dump them.


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## Lisa

Thanks Wodgy, for your suggestions on what to say the the people in the store. 
 I've been helped in this by my mother (bless her). Let her know exactly what i don't like about the Dyns. She feels the same so maybe our taste is more simulair than I first thought.
 She'll go listen for me to other speakers. And maybe the store will let me have an audition at home after she's picked out some speakers she thinks I might like.

 Orpheus,

 I hear the good things the Dyns do too, but the treble (at least in my set up) is unenjoyable for me.
 They are very clear, no doubt about that. But I happely give some clearity for a more enjoyable sound.

 You are right. I haven't listened to good speakers for more than ten years. But I did like the Grado SR-60s a lot. Not the best of the Grado's I know but still. 
 Maybe speakers and headphones are two different things.


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## James

Hi Lisa,

 At this point, I'm probably too late. Sorry for not replying earlier; I didn't see your response!

 By dryness I meant a certain reticence in the midrange to upper-bass. The NAD C370 (and C350) isn't very lush or even generous-souding, a bit analytical if you will. With a more neutral amp you will find the music to be warmer, richer, rounder, bigger ... the kind of adjectives that I think you may be looking for. Along those lines, if you've ever heard a tube amp with the Audience 52's, this may resolve a great deal of your criticisms. Unfortunately, my own experience with tubed amps with the Dynaudios are somewhat less than satisfying on the detail and dynamics front.

 Good luck with your auditioning! BTW, I am surprised and happy to see TWO women so interested in audio. If only mine were so inclined ... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 One thing I definitely remember from my many auditions is that my mom and my other girl friends (not girlfriends, I'm not so prolific 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ) all had a sensitivity to treble harshness, whereas most guys tend to view it more positively (calling it aggression, liveliness, etc.). But the women were always right in the long run; audio is the only thing for which advice I ALWAYS take from my mom!


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## wallijonn

just don't let the salesman suggest you put a sock in front of the tweeter. be firm. listen to a few more speakers. if you listen to his setup and can't hear the same treble trouble, have him change equipment around until it sounds just like it does in your home. then listen to some other speakers (with the new equipment configuration) and pick out one that sounds best to you.


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## Lisa

You guys are not too late.
 I've translated it in Dutch for my mother. So she can take the advise with her when she goes for a listen!

 Thanks.


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## wallijonn

Tina,

 I had this really high treble problem in my setup. No matter what headphones I connected, they just all seemed too harsh. So I did as I suggested to you - I swapped the RCA cables 180 degrees. Now all the high end harshness is gone. So from no on I will be inserting the cables so that the shield is grounded at the "in" (input) of the amp. The other way, where the dhield is grounded at the DVD was just plain too bright.

 It looks like I'll have to make up some more cables. What I'm thinking of his having the shield soldered at both ends, but only having the negative tied to the shield at one end. I also want to experiment with magnetic oxide coated copper wire.

 See, cables do make a difference.


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## Orpheus

normally on "half-balanced" cables the shield is connected to the source end, or the output of your preamp or whatever, not the input of your amp. i am not an electrician, so i can't tell you why, but that's what my friend with a PhD in EE tells me to do. but either way, it should not affect the sound in terms of frequency response. its effects will be on noise and hum.


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## blr

I've listened to all the components you have and in properly set system none of them is harsh. 
 Dynaoudio are indeed fine speakers and while the easiest way will be to just exchange them I'd suggest to try and get the most out of your system. 
 I suspect speaker cables may be one of the reasons. You'll be surprised how much difference a speaker cable makes especially to the high mids and treble. I experimented with some DIY designs lately and came across some cables that really tone down the treble. You can try several other things like placing decouplers underneath the speakers vibration isolation for componets ICs etc.
 Anyway, it is perhaps too late. Just keep us posted this is an interesting thread


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## Lisa

at the moment i've got a terrible flu.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 i'll give you all an update when i feel a bit better.


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## bundee1

Get your vitamin c and get back to us soon.


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## Dusty Chalk

Sorry, popping in late to this, so just throwing out a few random thoughts:

 I agree with room treatments, if at all possible. I used to be in a similar room to what you described, and because of the interference from the reflections coming off of the wall behind me, there was a whole comb filter effect, depending on my position. Comb filter means it goes very quickly from bright to dull to bright to dull, etc., and this was based on my head position.

 If you have to be in the same room as the speakers when they're burning in, face them towards each other. The waves that are synchronous (in the center of the stereo field) will balance each other out, and the total sound coming out of the speakers will be quieter.*

 [size=xx-small]* There will be people who will tell you that you need to put the speakers out of phase when you do this -- DON'T LISTEN TO THEM. If you insist, try it both ways yourself. I found this out myself the hard way.[/size]


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## Lisa

A bit late, but because of it I've got even more to tell.

 My mother went back to the store to listen to other speakers cause it was getting obvious that the Dynaudio's just weren't for me and the place where i wanted put them.

 She went twice and we agreed with the store that she could take two pairs of speakers (demo versions) home to me so I could listen to them in the room where they are gonna be put. Can try them out for two weeks.

 It are the B&W CM2 and the Chario Constellation Lynx.
 The latter got the best first impression. Put the whole system back in the intended room and listened to the Chario's last night. Bass was too much. Turns out the bassreflexport is under the speaker which is standing on 4 one inch high 'legs'. So the bass can reflect on the survice. Gives a very open airy sound but bass is way too much for a small room.
 Next move is to stuff the ports and see what that does for the sound. If this doesn't do damage in other area's of the sound I think I found my speakers.

 After that I'm gonna listen to the B&W but my very first impression was not too crash hot. Sounded not very clear to me. You can connect them with Bi-wiring, maybe they really need that...


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## Wodgy

Awesome! Glad to hear you've made some great progress. Don't stuff the port until the Chario burns in for a while. I suspect that its bass will tighten up greatly over burn-in.


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## Wodgy

Also, you may want to raise the speakers a little bit, rather than stuff the port. Soup cans placed under the feet would be a good and easy experiment. I know people will suggest moving the speakers away from the wall, but since your room is small this is a good alternative.


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## Lisa

In case anyone was wondering I thought I post the end result here.

 I tried a lot to make the Chario speakers work but there was just way to much bass. They're definitely something I'd recommend to someone who's a basshead and want good sounding speakers without a subwoofer.

 The store let me audition some more speakers at home. And I ended up with the KEF Q1 speakers. The Chario's were a bit more detailed but lacked a bit in the mids. And the KEF sound is just much more to my liking. 

 Just one other thing. Those B&W CM2's I listened too. They were so bad I couldn't believe it. This can hardly be called difference in taste. I even called up the store and asked if I connected them righ and I did. They sounded like AM radio without the high whisteling tone. They had no bass and hardly any treble. The guy at the store said B&W sound wooly. Do people like that?
 They cost €450 a piece!!!
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Is this just me?


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## wallijonn

congratulations, Lisa. I remember KEF from the non-round woofer days (boxy oval).


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## kuma

Quote:


 _Originally posted by Lisa _
*Just one other thing. Those B&W CM2's I listened too. They were so bad I couldn't believe it. This can hardly be called difference in taste. I even called up the store and asked if I connected them righ and I did. They sounded like AM radio without the high whisteling tone. They had no bass and hardly any treble. The guy at the store said B&W sound wooly. Do people like that?
 They cost €450 a piece!!!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Is this just me? * 
 

Lisa,

 I don't very much care for B&W's house sound either. But, you get the lots of speaker for the money and they retain a secondary value. Your dealer is correct by saying they are 'wooly'. i.e. slow and has a prominent midbass rise. Midrange clarity gets better as you go up in models, but bass portion still try to keep up from the rest. 

 Your loaner B&W sounds like they were not fully run in, tho. 

 Congrats on your Kef! Is that the one with UniQ drivers?


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## Wodgy

Congrats on the Kefs! I've always liked the Kef sound too (though my auditions have been brief).


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## blr

I haven't heard the CM2, but B&W speakers are usually highly regarded. Isn't CM2 a center speaker? If so don't expect it to sound great for LR. It most probably will have a very strong midrange hump (equilized for speech)
 I own a pair of DM601 S3, which I purchased after a month long research and auditions. To me they were the best value both in terms of materials and craftmanship and sound. Than again it is all personal taste


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## bundee1

Congratulations on your new speakers Lisa!!!! You did it the right way, which many people dont do either because of impatience or ignorance. Im happy you'll finally get to enjoy your music.


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## Lisa

Thanks guys! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


 _Originally posted by kuma _
 Congrats on your Kef! Is that the one with UniQ drivers? 
 

Not completely sure but I think it is. 
 Budget model but with these drivers or something very simulair.


 About the B&W CM2
 I've searched for some review online on those and couldn't find many. The review I did find said that they weren't the best value for money and they needed a room where you can play them loud. So in my small room at low volume...
 Found far more and better reviews on the DM601 S3.


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