# How much does the power cable really do?



## theryaner

I'm familiar with the importance of cables and interconnects but power cord... really? I'm gonna receive a little dot i+ very soon and I'll be upgrading the interconnects for sure but what about the power cable?


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## krmathis

Well, without out a power cable your unit will not make any sound. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 Hence very important.


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## theryaner

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *krmathis* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well, without out a power cable your unit will not make any sound. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Hence very important._

 

lol! not what I meant. I mean is it worth spending 50 bucks for a power cable? I have like 10 cords lying around from past computers, what difference in sound would I hear.


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## waterlogic

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *theryaner* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_lol! not what I meant. I mean is it worth spending 50 bucks for a power cable? I have like 10 cords lying around from past computers, what difference in sound would I hear._

 

NO. NO. NO.

 Even 10 bucks is not worth. Spend it on beer, much better.


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## krmathis

Ok, I got that. Just had to play, since you did not make it all clear. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 There do not seem to be any clear answer. If a cables quality make an audible difference it up for discussion quite often and both sides have strong believers and arguments.
 This thread may give you some ideas, but besides that I just think you have to try several options and make up your own mind.
Explain to me the importance of a quality power cable (if any)

 Edit
 I am sure there are other related threads as well, I just found this one first.


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## fhuang

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *theryaner* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm familiar with the importance of cables and interconnects but power cord... really? I'm gonna receive a little dot i+ very soon and I'll be upgrading the interconnects for sure but what about the power cable?_

 


 if you say power card or cables of any kind are important, you're in deep doo doo here. do some search and you'll know.


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## koven

dont waste your money

 for interconnects, go w/ blue jeans cable and call it a day


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## Currawong

On a cheap amp? Hell no, buy a better amp or better headphones instead.


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## tvrboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_On a cheap amp? Hell no, buy a better amp or better headphones instead._

 

+1


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## musicman59

One time I posted that IMO I heard a difference in sound with different power cables and I opened Pandora's box..... it was nasty! I would not say it again.
 I just keep it to myself and enjoy my music.


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## hentai

powercord makes a difference but not for budget amps


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## leeperry

don't you need a hi-fi fuse to hear a difference at all? weakest link, yada yada..

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f5/can...ty-amp-280623/
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f21/hi...ontrol-468343/
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f21/ne...rticle-306041/


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## mrarroyo

If you use a power cord as a whip in your S&M dungeon then the ones w/ the ferrite cores at the end accelerate better and provide a most satisfying WHACK! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 On a serious note, a lot depends on how is the electrical grid in your area and in your house. Most of the time no change whatsoever.


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## krmathis

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *musicman59* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I would not say it again.
 I just keep it to myself and enjoy my music.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Smart move!
 Most of these cable discussions do not lead anywhere and also tend to turn a bit ugly. So better just believe in your own ears and let it be with that.


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## chinesekiwi

A power cord, when it isn't broke in any way, is no different whatever it is. A standard power cord is fine. But don't let science and industry standards get in the way.....


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## Happy Camper

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_On a cheap amp? Hell no, buy a better amp or better headphones instead._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *hentai* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_powercord makes a difference but not for budget amps_

 

Yepper.

 Save your money for a future upgrade.


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## theryaner

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Happy Camper* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yepper.

 Save your money for a future upgrade._

 

lol alright, guys. I own a pair of grado 325is's paired with a pico amp/dac... So don't think I have some cheapo headphone. I try not to value equipment by it's price, even though that may be difficult. I just heard the I+ has great synergy with grados and with better cables you can get more out of it.

 From what I'm reading, I think the power cord is the least of my worries, thanks!


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## nierika

In my experience, the sound out of a headphone amp is more influenced by the power cord than by the interconnect.


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## 9pintube

THERYANER, See what you started! I'm just Kidding.....I'm a believer in better Power cords, Ics and all the rest of the "WIRE" in our systems.......But, and it's a BIG BUT and I cannot lie-----------MAKE YOUR OWN......I don't care if you put a nice braided shielding over a piece of Romex and install some nice hubbel plugs you'll love it......"IT" will sound wondrous! Then you can build better sounding and looking "CORDS", just add silver or silver over copper in a Teflon Dielectric "Jobbie" add some Mesh and shrink wrap "IT" up and then for the killer ending, Freeze it for a week or two!!!! Presto, you'll be in Hog Heaven! 1 word of caution: Make sure Your New DIY "Big Snake" doesn't pull your little amp or dac off the equip. rack.......Have Fun and enjoy the music!!!!


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## the search never ends

MUST RESIST!!!!!


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## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nierika* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_In my experience, the sound out of a headphone amp is more influenced by the power cord than by the interconnect._

 

x2. Some amps more than others, and obviously some less.

 If you need recommendations, PM me with your budget and gear.


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## krmathis

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *theryaner* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_From what I'm reading, I think the power cord is the least of my worries, thanks!_

 

Depends who you listen to.
 I tend to be a cable believer myself, but not all convinced about power cables. It might be related to the fact that we seem to have quite clean and stable power supply here in Norway.

 Wait for the little dot i+ to arrive, hook it up with the supplied power cable and start listening. Seek out power cables further down the road if you feel it is not quite "there".


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## JamesL

you could try really hard to clean up your power with a expensive power cable, or you could get a well-designed power supply. I find the latter to be more effective personally


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## haloxt

I've seen many pro-power cable people say that the important thing is to not have a power cable that prevents the gear from getting the current it needs by choosing proper gauge cables, and for some things, stock cables are perfectly fine. Current hungry power amp, receiver, and subwoofer need good thick power cables and minimal daisy-chained power strips more than say an mp3 player, and there's plenty of variety of equipment in between, depending on how clean/overworked your electricity is and how good your psu is and how power-demanding your gear is. I've also heard people say they like industrial or DIY power cords even without high purity conductors.


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## theryaner

Thanks for all the responses, guys! I haven't done much research on possible power cords I might buy, because I'm not sure if I'll even buy one. 

 But I've seen this one:

MagicPower

 I'll probably buy an interconnect from these guys or blue jeans... Not sure which is better.

 EDIT: off topic but I'll throw it out there anyways.

 copper or silver interconnect? matter of preference or is silver simply better?


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## musicman59

I have Vampire Wire pure silver interconnects. They make the sound very clean and pure but because of that it also can be a little bit on the bright side and the bass is tighter. I also have silver plated copper. These ones give you a little bit warmer sound. I just discover the pure OCC cables. They are continuos cast ohno copper. These guys give you the warmth of the copper cables with out loosing anything in the to end. IMO is the best for a natural warm sound. At the end it all depends of your sound taste.


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## AudioCats

Power cord can add a certain coloration to the final sound (think the power cord as a RC..RC..RC network). The coloration is usually not huge, but if your amp have a certain coloration you don't like, changing to a different power cord could mask the un-desired signature of amp/source.

 For example: to fix the Stax T1S/W's coloration in human voice, one can try a pure silver/teflon power cord. That might take the voice abbrasivness away. However doing so might lose some (perceived) hyper details. 

 Dynamic phone/amp are usually not that transparent anyway, different power cords might not make much a difference in your set-up. 

 Save your power cord money, go electrostatics.


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## DaveBSC

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *AudioCats* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 Save your power cord money, go electrostatics. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I hope you're not implying that a good cord is not necessary for stats. Electrostatic headphone amps are probably the most sensitive to clean, quality power. Which brings me to another point, conditioning. A good conditioner makes just as much of an impact as good cords, and also serves to make sure your equipment stays safe. 

 Oh, and don't bother with the Signal Magic Power cord, it's just bulk wire in a techflex jacket with some Marinco connectors on it. Anybody can build one in about 10 minutes for less than half of what Signal charges.


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## rsaavedra

Is the power cord feeding a regulated DC power supply?

 Then check  this analogy. Wrote it quite a while ago. It tries to give an idea of how little effect the power cord might have (if any) compared to many other things in your circuit, in particular, that power supply itself.


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## Currawong

Dave: It's obvious, as it is with most of these small manufacturers, that you're paying them to build gear from common materials. Saying to the effect of "Better still, build one yourself, they use x, y and z." is good too.

 I'd say though, YMMV with power cords. The Northstar M192 MKI I had sounded quite dull until one day I experimentally put an "audiophile" power cord on it. Suddenly it wasn't dull any longer! I'd not expected any difference. With my current DAC, they seem to make a slight difference, but not much. I'd guess that is due to the much better power circuits in it compared to the Northstar. As I said elsewhere though, the biggest bang-for-the-buck was moving my rig to a power point on a different circuit in my apartment (free!) followed by the Juice Box Jr from TTVJ.


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## sachu

With my headphone amp/s, power cords make an appreciable difference. Going from a normal IEC cord to a good quality cable makes a very easily noticeable difference. On the DAC however the differences are subtle.


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## plonter

just joining to the conversation after reading a little, are we talking about the power cord that goes from the electricity socket to the outboard power supply or the one that goes from the power suplly to the amp?

 I don't have so much knowledge in scientiffic stuff like most of you guys,but my logic tells me that the later (from the PSU to the amp) is more significant... and my explanation is:
 if the power supply is a kind of power conditioner,than as long as it gets the electricity from the wall socket than it shouldn't matter so much, but on the other hand, the cable that goes from the power supply to the amp can make a difference because the electricity in this case don't go through any kind of "cleaning/smoothing" like in the first case. so in order to keep the output power of the PSU clean,we need a good power cable connecting it to the amp. 
 is this have a point?


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## cswann1

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DaveBSC* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Oh, and don't bother with the Signal Magic Power cord, it's just bulk wire in a techflex jacket with some Marinco connectors on it. Anybody can build one in about 10 minutes for less than half of what Signal charges._

 




 In just about any cable or IC we use in audio, there is a company that makes a product from off-the-shelf components and sells it. Sometimes for enormous mark-ups.


 Singling out Signal Cable seems a bit unfair. They are a company known for building and selling quality cables and interconnects for a reasonable price.

 My first purchase from them was a pair of Silver resolution IC's. I bought them to find out for myself if the cable debate was real or not. From my findings it absolutely does make a difference to use a high quality IC. I posted as much in this forum. One of the members who responded told me to try a quality power cable as well.

 So last week I ordered a Magic Power Cable. Yeah, I know, silly name but they have to call it something right? I received it yesterday. The thing is like a fire-hose compared to a drinking straw when beside my regular cord. The construction is obviously of good quality.

 Then I warmed up my MKIVse for about 15 minutes, and listened to some Nora Jones, using the standard cord. Then I switched to the Signal Cable cord and played the same music.

 Once again, I found out first-hand that power cables DO in fact make a difference. Some might even call my MKIVse a "cheap" amp, but I don't think $60 is a lot to spend on a power cord for a $400 amp.

 So, what did I hear? The first thing I heard was better defined bass. It had more texture and detail. It's like my amp has a better ability to control the cone movement in my can's drivers (I was using my D7000's). I'm not that good at describing subtle differences in sound, so I'll say that overall the sound was "better" with the new cord. It just seemed more dynamic. Was it a lot better? No. Was is noticeably better? Yes.

 Sure, if you already have an iron and solder and want to buy the components and pay the shipping (or gas to drive to buy them) and then spend your time constructing the cable, you can save yourself some dough. 

 But Signal Cable makes quality products at a reasonable price with as good of customer service as I've ever had. No, I'm not related to anyone that works there and I have nothing to gain by speaking up for them. These are just my opinions. Enjoy


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## Happy Camper

I guess the issue is not if a different power cable or IC makes a change, most here are concerned about the mark ups. If you want to save the most/spend the least, build your own. If the dollar isn't such an issue, you can find differences in expensive and inexpensive wire. What's your comfort range? 

 The gear in question for a power cable upgrade is a low end amp. Could it benefit from a better power cord, probably would. Is it worth an investment vs say upgrading an amp, only you could say. Most of us would recommend upgrading gear vs wire as a better investment. Don't take the recommendation as a diss to your setup.


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## sachu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Happy Camper* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I guess the issue is not if a different power cable or IC makes a change, most here are concerned about the mark ups. If you want to save the most/spend the least, build your own. If the dollar isn't such an issue, you can find differences in expensive and inexpensive wire. What's your comfort range? 

 The gear in question for a power cable upgrade is a low end amp. Could it benefit from a better power cord, probably would. Is it worth an investment vs say upgrading an amp, only you could say. Most of us would recommend upgrading gear vs wire as a better investment. Don't take the recommendation as a diss to your setup._

 

That's just dandy. Make blanket statements with the "most of us" remark to make it seem "factual". 
 Someone who can't hear the difference but wants to feel good about it while making the rest of us who do find differences (good or bad) in cables appear as fools makes such callous statements. 

 Now if you had said that a power cable would benefit an amp with a power supply design that doesn't have good PSRR I would be inclined to agree with you. 
 But that doesn't make the whole amp a lower end or second grade amp.
 Even then this isn't a hard and fast rule. 

 While I don't subscribe to the spend more on the cables than you would spend on your child's birthday camp, I do believe a truly high end system will benefit from cables. Suffice it to say unlike you I will close with the usual YMMV and IMHO.


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## BIG POPPA

A little DIY would help the OP more than just buying a cable with the amp he has or get a PS Audio Punch Power for about 50 bux. They rock compared to stock. 
 In some cases people who say cables don't make a difference have not spent the several hours getting to learn the sound of their rig. Don't go to meets or to their local Audio Store and really learn about cables. They don't care to learn the Metallurgy about the different metals, about the dielectric properties.
 Sachu, we will be laughing about this during the next meet. Hey Sachu, I'm waiting for a good demonstration how cables don't make a difference, How a Power cable with copper wire and copper plugs sounds the same to a SPC cable with Rhodium ends. There are exceptions to the rule. But besides talking about it during one of the Seattle meets haven't really heard about them.


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## Happy Camper

I think you mistook my comments. I am a believer in wire and have done my own experiments to know they do make a difference. But for a $150 amp, I wouldn't spend much on better cables but save for a better amp. The "most of us" comment about saving for better equipment vs trying to trick out a budget amp is an assumption on my part, I'll withdraw the statement your honor. 

 IMO (unless specified otherwise)


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## sachu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *BIG POPPA* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sachu, we will be laughing about this during the next meet. Hey Sachu, I'm waiting for a good demonstration how cables don't make a difference, How a Power cable with copper wire and copper plugs sounds the same to a SPC cable with Rhodium ends. There are exceptions to the rule. But besides talking about it during one of the Seattle meets haven't really heard about them._

 

Hey Gil,

 I'd be very interested to run some tests with different type of plugs..so far, from what i've read the general consensus is that brass plugs are optimal while rhodium are supposedly known to make the music sound thin.
 I am quite liking the new brass Leviton 8215 plugs i got for a song at 7$. Mainly they seem to make much better contact with the wall receptacle.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Happy Camper* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think you mistook my comments. I am a believer in wire and have done my own experiments to know they do make a difference. But for a $150 amp, I wouldn't spend much on better cables but save for a better amp. The "most of us" comment about saving for better equipment vs trying to trick out a budget amp is an assumption on my part, I'll withdraw the statement your honor. 

 IMO (unless specified otherwise)_

 

No need to come off condescending there but i guess for some it is second nature.

 In any case i do agree with you on one point. Spending about 10-15% of your audio budget is about as far as I would go on interconnects & power cables in an audio system.


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## BIG POPPA

Hey Sachu. For me with all the cables I have made, found out a few things. Rhodium(plugs) with SPC cable are very clear, smooth, and detailed, tall soundstage. With some SS it may not compliment the SS sound. With tube gear it helps IMO some of the faults of tubes, especially if you have some really warm tubes. (I have Rhodium plugged Power cables, interconnects, fuses, tubes). With the SS gear I found that Gold plated plugs with copper cable works well because the Gold is very lush, laid back, and wide sound stage sounding. With tubes it may be a bit much. Could go on will all copper, brass, silver, cryo'd, quantum tunneling, too much in one for one post.


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## kool bubba ice

Just get the Iron lung or Jelly fish for 40.00..Hospital grade connectors..


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## kool bubba ice

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sachu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's just dandy. Make blanket statements with the "most of us" remark to make it seem "factual". 
 Someone who can't hear the difference but wants to feel good about it while making the rest of us who do find differences (good or bad) in cables appear as fools makes such callous statements. 

 Now if you had said that a power cable would benefit an amp with a power supply design that doesn't have good PSRR I would be inclined to agree with you. 
 But that doesn't make the whole amp a lower end or second grade amp.
 Even then this isn't a hard and fast rule. 

 While I don't subscribe to the spend more on the cables than you would spend on your child's birthday camp, I do believe a truly high end system will benefit from cables. Suffice it to say unlike you I will close with the usual YMMV and IMHO._

 

I find it funny that I heard a difference with 20.00 Belkin RCA cables, but no difference with my Cardas headphone cable.. I'm beginning to believe there is something to it.. That cables can at least influence the sound.. Wether a cable can better the sound will always remain controversial. I use the Mother ZU PC cause I got it for 200.00..6FT.. I find it funny.. If you read the small print on the pamphlet that comes with it, ZU admits, it might not better the sound in your equipment.. Depends on many 'variables', etc.. Hell, at least they are being honest about it.. I have yet to do a sonic comparison.. But I bought a Panamax 5300 PC for 'cleaner; power.. I live in a 30 yr old mobile home with faulty wiring.. If I have too much going on.. The power goes out.. Retails for 500, but got it for 188 new.. I'd never pay 500 for a PC..


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## kool bubba ice

I just know I get crazy discounts on audioquest HDMI/interconnects.. I get like 60% retail..


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## BIG POPPA

Audioquest used to be good back in the day. Now are are getting into more things like remastering old recordings.


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## hentai

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kool bubba ice* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I find it funny that I heard a difference with 20.00 Belkin RCA cables, but no difference with my Cardas headphone cable.. I'm beginning to believe there is something to it.. That cables can at least influence the sound.. Wether a cable can better the sound will always remain controversial. I use the Mother ZU PC cause I got it for 200.00..6FT.. I find it funny.. If you read the small print on the pamphlet that comes with it, ZU admits, it might not better the sound in your equipment.. Depends on many 'variables', etc.. Hell, at least they are being honest about it.. I have yet to do a sonic comparison.. But I bought a Panamax 5300 PC for 'cleaner; power.. I live in a 30 yr old mobile home with faulty wiring.. If I have too much going on.. The power goes out.. Retails for 500, but got it for 188 new.. I'd never pay 500 for a PC.._

 

Different cables work differently in various systems. Despite that black sands violet was highly reviewed in the forum, I know someone who didn't think it was good when he had them.


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## Drag0n

You wont hear differences in power cords until you fully burn them in, and because of the heavy gauge, this can take over 1000 hours.


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## SP Wild

In my opinion,

 Power cables are better value improvements than interconnects up to about $200 (give and take $150) thereafter the only improvements may well be just a different flavour - hence the large consensus to DIY. I have found that interconnects do not offer as much improvements in this price range as a power cable, but after which they can continue to offer audible improvements - improvements I have felt to have heard after $1000. Bearing in mind that I was never able to audition power cables beyond $500 and can not speak for the likes of "VD Judge". This has been my subjective experience with all things cable related. If you do not I agree - I do not wish to convince you otherwise.


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## Uncle Erik

I see that the resident folklore and mythology experts have staked out this thread.

 Anyone who thinks a power cord makes a difference ought to contact the manufacturer of their amp to let them know their power supplies suck.

 Maybe you can even give their engineers some advice on what magical mystery tweak du jour would help.

 A power supply is designed and engineered to filter AC into DC. You can intentionall dirty AC quite a bit and still get as clean an output on the other end as pure AC. To a point, of course, but this is all in the _measurable_ range of things, not the mystical cryogenic invisible and impossible to measure land of unicorns and faeries where wishes, dreams and fantasies are all equally valid.

 Think through the consequences and side effects if any of this were true.

 For eaxmple, if a magical power cord removes "impurites," then the benefit would only apply when the power was bad. Right? So even the most expensive cable (and, for whatever reason, performance always correlates with retail price and not with the value of the components. Apparently, a bigger pricetag arbitrarily decided upon affects sound quality.) would end up with _no effect whatsoever_ if it was fed a clean sine wave.

 Next, think about all the other wire in your house. If it is so "bad," then why doesn't it ruin the magical purifying "effects" of a power cord? Though, it seems, putting ordinary house wire into a garden hose somehow renders it "special." Who knew? If any length of "special" wire confers benefits, then why does the entire magical power cord have to be made of the same material? Couldn't you just insert 1mm of silver that was cryogenically treated and bathed in the tears of a virgin monk for the same benefit?

 There are a hundred other unanswerable questions like this. The believers and assorted shills always throw back arguments about hate, being close-minded and too cheap to but an aftermarket cable.

 Nonsense.

 Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. And, here, there isn't any. Nothing.

 All you have are people reciting folklore and fairy tales, then someone else trying to sell you something for a fat profit. Don't fall for the nonsense.


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## SP Wild

Well spoken UE. Anybody that thinks pumping money into a problem that may as well not exist, has strongly been forewarned by many and myself included.


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## AudioCats

If you can't detect a difference (not implying whether you should hear any differences or not), good for you, you have saved yourself a lot of time and $.


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## AudioCats

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DaveBSC* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I hope you're not implying that a good cord is not necessary for stats. Electrostatic headphone amps are probably the most sensitive to clean, quality power. ..._

 

agree, the electrostatics are more sensitive to everything... I was trying to trick him to move toward the electrostatic phones 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 You have just spoiled my evil plan, what did you do that for


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## gbacic

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Uncle Erik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I see that the resident folklore and mythology experts have staked out this thread.

 Anyone who thinks a power cord makes a difference ought to contact the manufacturer of their amp to let them know their power supplies suck.

 Maybe you can even give their engineers some advice on what magical mystery tweak du jour would help.

 A power supply is designed and engineered to filter AC into DC. You can intentionall dirty AC quite a bit and still get as clean an output on the other end as pure AC. To a point, of course, but this is all in the measurable range of things, not the mystical cryogenic invisible and impossible to measure land of unicorns and faeries where wishes, dreams and fantasies are all equally valid.

 Think through the consequences and side effects if any of this were true.

 For eaxmple, if a magical power cord removes "impurites," then the benefit would only apply when the power was bad. Right? So even the most expensive cable (and, for whatever reason, performance always correlates with retail price and not with the value of the components. Apparently, a bigger pricetag arbitrarily decided upon affects sound quality.) would end up with no effect whatsoever if it was fed a clean sine wave.

 Next, think about all the other wire in your house. If it is so "bad," then why doesn't it ruin the magical purifying "effects" of a power cord? Though, it seems, putting ordinary house wire into a garden hose somehow renders it "special." Who knew? If any length of "special" wire confers benefits, then why does the entire magical power cord have to be made of the same material? Couldn't you just insert 1mm of silver that was cryogenically treated and bathed in the tears of a virgin monk for the same benefit?

 There are a hundred other unanswerable questions like this. The believers and assorted shills always throw back arguments about hate, being close-minded and too cheap to but an aftermarket cable.

 Nonsense.

 Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. And, here, there isn't any. Nothing.

 All you have are people reciting folklore and fairy tales, then someone else trying to sell you something for a fat profit. Don't fall for the nonsense._

 

_your ears just aren't good enough_


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## rsaavedra

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gbacic* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_your ears just aren't good enough_

 

Or your ears just are fooling you.

 Our sense of vision fools us with the Moon illusion every single time. Doesn't matter whether we know it's an illusion, our senses and cognitive machinery still can make us believe things that just aren't.


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## norskman

Hi Guys..
 Another very interesting thread...but consensus is impossible both camps are entrenched...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I am as wet behind the ears!Audio wise as it is possible to be? but I lean slightly towards the Upgraded~power~cable helps Camp!

 So that said I would like to purchase two power cables for my P.C. Based~system which consists of the following*]

 :---->DELL STUDIO 17 (32BIT) LAPTOP-->HRT-MUSICSTREAMER II+-->AUDIOENGINE A5S (actives)-->BEYER-990DT PHONES--->Little Dot MK IV SE-AMP/PRE AMP-CUSTOM CABLES FROM LOCUS DESIGN & XLO;*

 I had being looking at Sunyata,XLO,& others but I do not want to get to carried away...

 Any suggestions as to good cables appreciated (Shuko European)

 all the best Steve


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## rsaavedra

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Uncle Erik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_A power supply is designed and engineered to filter AC into DC. You can intentionall dirty AC quite a bit and still get as clean an output on the other end as pure AC._

 

I guess you meant as pure* DC* at the other end. In any case, exactly! That's the very essence of the analogy I linked to before, between a regulated power supply and a regulated boiler system.


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## waterlogic

http://morethanapiece.files.wordpres...arbed-wire.jpg


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## gbacic

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rsaavedra* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Or your ears just are fooling you._

 

I tried to convey sarcasm with the italics, didn't work though.

 Power cables are bad, but there are worse tweaks out there, like cable lifters, or the lessloss blackbody.


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## rsaavedra

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gbacic* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I tried to convey sarcasm with the italics, didn't work though._

 

Ah ok. Well, using italics isn't really a standard convention for sarcasm, that I know of at least. 

  Quote:


 Power cables are bad, but there are worse tweaks out there, like cable lifters, or the lessloss blackbody. 
 

Certainly, there are worse tweaks. Didn't know about that blackbody crap (pardon my French.) Gee, that one should be right up there next to the "quantum chip", the "rainbow strip", the $400 wooden knob, and the whole bunch of those little "resonators."


----------



## gbacic

have you guys tried the green felt tip marker on your cd's?

 add's that next level of depth


----------



## BIG POPPA

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gbacic* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_have you guys tried the green felt tip marker on your cd's?

 add's that next level of depth_

 

Yes, and shaved the CD too. I liked the results. Like the SID Disc too.

 * A local audio store will shave a few disc's and mark them for you for free.


----------



## Head Injury

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gbacic* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_have you guys tried the green felt tip marker on your cd's?

 add's that next level of depth_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *BIG POPPA* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes, and shaved the CD too. I liked the results. Like the SID Disc too._

 

I apply the marker, then shave the edges off. No ugly green ring, but all the added benefit of both techniques. Then I rip them at 1.0x drive speed just to make sure, and of course place anti-noise pebbles in the drive while it spins to add to the dynamics and impact. There's whole layers of sound that I've never heard. In fact, if I encode at 128kbps even those lossy files single-handedly destroy 24-bit FLACs.


----------



## BIG POPPA

Have you shared your results with anyone? What was their impressions?


----------



## G.Trenchev

Consider this:there are about 100m "whatever" copper from the AC station to your home.What's the difference if you add 1m silver ?
 IMO $ for power cord is no-no


----------



## Head Injury

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *BIG POPPA* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Have you shared your results with anyone? What was their impressions?_

 

I did a blind test on my uncle. He was so shocked by the difference that he's now _legally_ blind.

 Unfortunately, he's also now mute and never learned to type without looking at the keys, so his impressions are lost in the void.


----------



## haloxt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *G.Trenchev* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Consider this:there are about 100m "whatever" copper from the AC station to your home.What's the difference if you add 1m silver ?
 IMO $ for power cord is no-no_

 

What some audiophiles do is get dedicated thick mains lines for their audio electronics, also power conditioners.


----------



## endless402

+1 to dedicated lines. that way you dont mix your video sources and amps


----------



## sachu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *G.Trenchev* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Consider this:there are about 100m "whatever" copper from the AC station to your home.What's the difference if you add 1m silver ?
 IMO $ for power cord is no-no_

 

Not a proponent or silver wire and the like, but the last 1m that does go into your system 
 does matter. Doesn't need to be fancy shmancy..decent power cords that can be DIYed for 
 about 20$ can do wonders when you are living in a house/apt that has decade/s old wiring.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What some audiophiles do is get dedicated thick mains lines for their audio electronics, also power conditioners._

 

Dedicated lines are good so long as the earthing is not too close to the earthing for the rest of the house. Power conditioners do their part as well, but then again it might not be all beneficial. Some change to the better some change the sound to be worse depending on your tastes. 
 View cables as lumped RLC components and being in the immediate signal chain they do impact the sound.


----------



## cswann1

Ah yes, here it is.

 I love the "why not just stick an inch of wonder-wire at the end of a lamp cord" argument.


 OK, in most cases we don't have any control of the power delivery to our components from the wall socket to the power plant. But from the wall socket on, that's where we can begin choosing how exactly our audio components are fed. I'm inclined to think that a heavy-guage length of high-purity copper cable will carry current from the wall to my amp/DAC/source better than a $2 peice of who-knows-what. And I took that inclination and ran with it and found that I was able to detect a difference in my systems sound. 

 And I guess Markl must be laying the ground work for going into the power cable business, and posting 22 cable reviews so that he'll have credibility with the community enough to rip us all off with his own $3000 lamp cords.


----------



## Currawong

I don't think the whole power-cord thing is a mystery. We know that putting capacitors in the signal path can filter out (usually high) frequencies. All cables have a capacitance, so very likely the power cables are simply acting as noise filters of some kind. Indeed you can buy a very expensive power filter which is merely a fancy-looking power board with noise-filtering capacitors across each socket.

 The problem with the "it's all in your mind" crowd is, every time, after reading their posts, I think "Maybe I am crazy", switch around some power cords thinking there will be no difference, and there is. So maybe it's not all in my mind, but their belief that it's all nonsense is all in theirs.


----------



## haloxt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sachu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Power conditioners do their part as well, but then again it might not be all beneficial. Some change to the better some change the sound to be worse depending on your tastes. 
 View cables as lumped RLC components and being in the immediate signal chain they do impact the sound._

 

I noticed my ac-215 gets worse the more power draw it has, like when I decide to put everything including the fluorescent lamp on it. Also it does impart it's own sound signature, or at least changes the sound enough for me to consider it a change in sound signature. I've tried seeing others' opinions on this, and it seems like many who researched this topic also think power conditioners are usually hit and miss.


----------



## rsaavedra

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The problem with the "it's all in your mind" crowd is, every time, after reading their posts, I think "Maybe I am crazy", switch around some power cords thinking there will be no difference, and there is. So maybe it's not all in my mind, but their belief that it's all nonsense is all in theirs. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Unfortunately for you 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, that is as fallacious as saying that those who think that the moon illusion is only an illusion also have just a "belief", and that "it's all in their mind." The nonsense always lies in those who believe a rather extraordinary claim without evidence, other than mere anecdotical accounts. 

 PS. And one other thing worth mentioning: the burden of proof is always on the side of those making the extraordinary claim, not on those disbelieving it.


----------



## KingStyles

Realistically speaking, it does as much as your ears are capable of perceiving. For some its zero and others its system changing. Just try it out yourself and make your own decision without being tainted by a thread like this with preconceived expectations.


----------



## SP Wild

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What some audiophiles do is get dedicated thick mains lines for their audio electronics, also power conditioners._

 

Car batteries in my case, I have a combined capacity of 160 ah X 12 v and if I wire up the third battery I have well over 200 ah of capacity. I've also put in a 2 farad capacitor - just in case.

 My low ohm Denons seem very tunable to power and I have a myriad of combinations of filters/variacs/batteries that are seem to result in a different sound - I am starting to eradicate the sibilance and reduce bass bloat and impact hence bringing out the midrange. These Denons are coming on nicely.

 My best Interconnects remain in place as I tune via different power sources - admittedly I am simply playing a mind game with myself to justify the high purchase price of these imperfect Denons.


----------



## bear7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *theryaner* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks for all the responses, guys! I haven't done much research on possible power cords I might buy, because I'm not sure if I'll even buy one. 

 But I've seen this one:

MagicPower

 I'll probably buy an interconnect from these guys or blue jeans... Not sure which is better.

 EDIT: off topic but I'll throw it out there anyways.

 copper or silver interconnect? matter of preference or is silver simply better?_

 

Try Quail power cords. There hospital grade cords and they will overlook the minimum order. I believe they were about $12 for a 6 ft. cord.


----------



## greenhorn

What does "hospital-grade" mean? 

 AFAIK it's a tighter connection with the wall socket, so that the cable doesn't get pulled out by accident.

 Does this improve the sound as well?


----------



## bear7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *greenhorn* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What does "hospital-grade" mean? 

 AFAIK it's a tighter connection with the wall socket, so that the cable doesn't get pulled out by accident.

 Does this improve the sound as well?




_

 

To be honest with you I don't know, all I know that's what hospital's use. There made to hospital requirements, whatever that is. All hospital grade cords have a green dot on the end of the cord. You remember the Iron Lung Jellyfish power cord craze a while back? I understand that was a Quail power cord only $15 to $20 more expensive. For what its worth?


----------



## haloxt

Hospital grade cable market is the only one Monster Cable Inc is too afraid to enter despite having an army of lawyers.


----------



## BIG POPPA

Blue jeans cable fixed Monster bullying cable companies.


----------



## Head Injury

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hospital grade cable market is the only one Monster Cable Inc is too afraid to enter despite having an army of lawyers._

 

"We have reason to believe that the cables used in your hospital are infringing on our Monster 4Life brand power cables. We recommend you unplug them immediately and contact our office before taking any further action."


----------



## sampson_smith

Ha ha ha. That's rich, Head Injury. :O


----------



## fzman

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Uncle Erik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I see that the resident folklore and mythology experts have staked out this thread.

 Anyone who thinks a power cord makes a difference ought to contact the manufacturer of their amp to let them know their power supplies suck.

 Maybe you can even give their engineers some advice on what magical mystery tweak du jour would help.

 A power supply is designed and engineered to filter AC into DC. You can intentionall dirty AC quite a bit and still get as clean an output on the other end as pure AC. To a point, of course, but this is all in the measurable range of things, not the mystical cryogenic invisible and impossible to measure land of unicorns and faeries where wishes, dreams and fantasies are all equally valid.

 Think through the consequences and side effects if any of this were true.

 For eaxmple, if a magical power cord removes "impurites," then the benefit would only apply when the power was bad. Right? So even the most expensive cable (and, for whatever reason, performance always correlates with retail price and not with the value of the components. Apparently, a bigger pricetag arbitrarily decided upon affects sound quality.) would end up with no effect whatsoever if it was fed a clean sine wave.

 Next, think about all the other wire in your house. If it is so "bad," then why doesn't it ruin the magical purifying "effects" of a power cord? Though, it seems, putting ordinary house wire into a garden hose somehow renders it "special." Who knew? If any length of "special" wire confers benefits, then why does the entire magical power cord have to be made of the same material? Couldn't you just insert 1mm of silver that was cryogenically treated and bathed in the tears of a virgin monk for the same benefit?

 There are a hundred other unanswerable questions like this. The believers and assorted shills always throw back arguments about hate, being close-minded and too cheap to but an aftermarket cable.

 Nonsense.

 Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. And, here, there isn't any. Nothing.

 All you have are people reciting folklore and fairy tales, then someone else trying to sell you something for a fat profit. Don't fall for the nonsense._

 

I am not convinced by your "argument". If we use the filter analogy, then the power cord as filter argument can make some sense, where your response does not-- your claim would be like arguing that a water filter cannot matter because it is only a small amount of pipe/hose at the end of miles of pipe feeding your faucets.

 if we consider the power delivery aspect of the cords, and their ability to not transmit or broadcast noise into adjacent cables, then there are real measurable considerations to take into account. Properly designed power cords will offer a lower impedance, and therefore be a better supplier of power. As a MOT I cannot cite specific brands, but there are some worth consideration. 

 What I can argue is that people keep their minds and ears open, and make their own tests as to whether these things matter or not. With a money-back guarantee, there is little to lose for the testing.

 Your paternalistic attitude seems a bit misplaced when people have the opportunity to listen for themselves, with no gun held to their heads. Methinks it smacks a bit too much of trying to rationalize an "always invest never spend" attitude. There really are adequacy conditions for assessing claims about power delivery -- if you will not agree that there are, then you are making religious claims, not scientific ones, no matter how smug and cynical your prose is.


----------



## Head Injury

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fzman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am not convinced by your "argument". If we use the filter analogy, then the power cord as filter argument can make some sense, where your response does not-- your claim would be like arguing that a water filter cannot matter because it is only a small amount of pipe/hose at the end of miles of pipe feeding your faucets.._

 

Forgive me if I'm not reading correctly, but wouldn't the water analogy be better served if the power cord was the last few feet of piping, and the water filter was instead the power supply or conditioner? The power cord, if it's doing any cleaning at all, would not do as much to the electricity as a power supply, that being its job. It's only transferring electricity from the outlet. High quality pipes in the last few feet before the filter won't do anything the filter won't do.


----------



## mrarroyo

I am plagiarizing a source ...

  Quote:


 Cords used with North American medical equipment must be hospital-grade. What makes the cord hospital grade: the plug. Commonly known as hospital-grade plugs, they are subject to special requirements contained in the following standards: Medical equipment standards: UL 60601-1 and CAN/CSA C22.2 no 60601-1; Power supply cord standards: UL 817 and CAN/CSA C22.2 no 21; Attachment plug standards: UL 498 and CAN/CSA C22.2 no 42.

 The hospital-grade plug pattern conforms to the NEMA 5-15 standard; however, (1) the blades are usually solid instead of folded brass, (2) the blades are normally nickel-plated, and (3) the plug includes a cable retention device or strain relief to prevent any stress to the plug's internal connections. It is imperative that the ground connection be reliably maintained to protect the patient and medical staff. Although many hospitals prefer that the plug be clear so that internal connections can be inspected visually, the UL and CSA standards do not mandate clear plugs nor do they provide any restrictions on color. Gray is another common color for hospital-grade plugs and cords.


----------



## haloxt

I knew a doctor who bragged his audio power cables were hospital grade. I really wonder if he just took them from some life support patients.


----------



## fzman

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Head Injury* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Forgive me if I'm not reading correctly, but wouldn't the water analogy be better served if the power cord was the last few feet of piping, and the water filter was instead the power supply or conditioner? The power cord, if it's doing any cleaning at all, would not do as much to the electricity as a power supply, that being its job. It's only transferring electricity from the outlet. High quality pipes in the last few feet before the filter won't do anything the filter won't do._

 

Yah, this was a bit poorly expressed- I was typing it at work... 

 I myself subscribe to the view that the power cord is the first few feet of cord- and is really an extension of the primary of the power transformer, and that the main job of the power cord is as low impedence as possible power delivery, while not acting as a transmit or receive antenna for rf and other nasties.

 what I was arguing against was the "last few feet" argument, and that is, that the last few feet of cord could not make a difference. The analogy was that the water filter is pretty much at the point of delivery of the water to the glass.... and that it certainly does make a difference, even at the end of the chain-- no further analogy was intended. (Let's not even get into the slippery slope fallacy of only using 1 mm of magic wire-- doubly sophisitical inside the context of an argument which simply begged the question to begin with)

 I also think that proper power conditioning is beneficial to av systems, both as power distribution, and as filtering the noise from the utility as well as from the system itself. Asymmetrical waveforms and dc can drive (toroidal) transformers crazy, and harmonic distortion on the AC makes the psu work harder, or gets thru the supply to the signal path. 

 These things are measurable, but few have the equipment to do so. Measurements in hand, we would still have to argue the efficacy of specific products, and their price-performance ratios, and how they stack up against the competition. 

 Some argue, a priori, cloaked as scientific argument, that none of these products do anything useful, and are therefore rip-offs, without allowing anything to count as evidence against these claims. They will claim, as Uncleric(sp?) has, that the burden of proof is solely on the side of those claiming that ac products matter. I'd like to see them produce measurements and substantive claims about those measurements to show that ac products cannot matter - all I have seen is smug, glib prose (however entertaining to read). Specify adequacy conditions (aka falsifiability conditions for your position, and I will consider it a scientific position, not a "religious" one.

 Hope that is clearer. I am constrained by MOT status, and take that seriously, to not name names and specify listening results -- I do have them, and stand behind them.


----------



## Happy Camper

Everybody run, a cable piper.

 Thanks for interjecting some pro effort to the discussion fzman but ignorance is easily duped by flamboyant naysayers with an axe to grind.


----------



## rsaavedra

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fzman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The analogy was that the water filter is pretty much at the point of delivery of the water to the glass.... and that it certainly does make a difference, even at the end of the chain--_

 

Pretty bad analogy, because dirty water gets filtered by the filter. So if the pipes before the filter were bad and dirty pipes, but you put a filter right before the tap you drink from, that definitely makes a difference. The water will come out cleaner because of the filter.

 NOT so with a power cord.

 Dirty AC electricity is not "filtered" or cleaned by any cable. A good cable will just conduct that electricity, however dirty that electricity already was. The cable might be built to prevent further interference from entering, that's fine. But on the one hand, that's not expensive to build, and on the other hand, it is definitely not like a filter. If you had dirty electricity to begin with, going through a properly shielded power cord (whether appropriately priced or ridiculously expensive) won't change that dirtiness in the AC any little bit.

 And once again, it's AC what that power cord is conducting. The power supply in the equipment being driven will convert that AC to DC, which is *hugely different*. Wait, let me put that in uppercase, bold, and italics, in case it isn't well known: *DC is HUGELY DIFFERENT from AC*.

 If we would try to use your filter analogy, the very power supply would be that sort of final "filter", but it's not just a filter which "cleans" one type of thing; it's rather a whole Refinery; it transforms what comes into it into a whole different kind of thing. (I'd recommend checking the boiler system analogy once more, but I'm becoming too much of a bore with such repetition. Anyone interested should have looked at it and thought about it carefuly enough already.)

 Whatever effect the power cord has is absolutely negligible compared to the major transformation a regulated power supply does converting AC to DC. Unless it's a truly terrible power supply in the first place, letting out through its DC output any trace of interference caught _precisely_ by the power cord on the AC it was carrying, and not by the rest of the whole AC power lines and system before that power cord.


----------



## waterlogic

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fzman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Some argue, a priori, cloaked as scientific argument, that none of these products do anything useful, and are therefore rip-offs, ..._

 

Such products are not rip-offs - they are fraud and as such people selling them should be processed by law.

 And you have the equipment to measure what a power cord does to an audio or av chain ?? Could you pls sell me one - at rip-off pricing?

 There are no borders to human stupidity ...


----------



## greenhorn

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *waterlogic* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Such products are not rip-offs - they are fraud and as such people selling them should be processed by law.
_

 

Well said.


----------



## h.rav

^ +1, post of the month. ;p


----------



## SP Wild

^ -1, Good luck with submitting your "evidence" to the court of law.


----------



## audiofil

I think money are better spent in proper filtering or conditioning.
 I've also found that even a simple Schaffner IEC line filter (which sell for 20$) can bring more benefits than an expensive Furutech cable.

 Given the wealth of choices today for both commercial and DIY affordable power conditioning devices, I think it's hard to find solid arguments in spending big bucks for mains cables.


----------



## haloxt

A parody science lab could be popular like parody news. Bill Nye the Technocrat, and his book I am Science (And So Can You!).


----------



## fzman

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *waterlogic* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Such products are not rip-offs - they are fraud and as such people selling them should be processed by law.

 And you have the equipment to measure what a power cord does to an audio or av chain ?? Could you pls sell me one - at rip-off pricing?

 There are no borders to human stupidity ..._

 

thanks for so vivid an illustration of my point that you quoted. too late for me to change my view, though, in light of the vast array of compelling facts and evidence you have provided to substantiate your point.

 Look, this is an area requiring real evidence an arguments-- my point was that there is a burden of proof on both sides, and I did reveal which side of things I supported -- nothing more, nothing less......


----------



## haloxt

Science in the year 2010 consists of picking a random hypothesis and declaring it science. How else can there be such things like Shaken Baby Syndrome. Get with the times!


----------



## rsaavedra

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fzman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_my point was that there is a burden of proof on both sides_

 

Quoting from Wikipedia: The burden of proof ...
  Quote:


 is often asymmetrical and typically falls more heavily on the party that makes either an ontologically positive claim, or makes a claim more "extraordinary"[4], that is farther removed from conventionally accepted facts. 
 

Check also the chart they have further down entitled "Asymmetry in the Burden of Proof," and compare the amount of burden for the claims "Fairies exists" vs. the claim "Fairies do not exist."


 There is only one positive claim being discussed here, and that is: "expensive power cords make an audible difference compared to decently built power cords, like simple hospital grade ones." That is only one claim, the asymmetry of the burden of proof here lies clearly on the side making such positive claim.


----------



## haloxt

fzman, you have exactly 4 minutes and 36 seconds to prove power cables make an audible difference or it is not true.

 I feel like making my own little gif

 messenger: You only argue with a hypothesis. This is inconclusive!
 rsaavedra: Inconclusive? *THIS IS SCIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIENCE!*


----------



## rsaavedra

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_fzman, you have exactly 4 minutes and 36 seconds to prove power cables make an audible difference or it is not true._

 

And... time's up.


----------



## BIG POPPA

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *waterlogic* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Such products are not rip-offs - they are fraud and as such people selling them should be processed by law.

 And you have the equipment to measure what a power cord does to an audio or av chain ?? Could you pls sell me one - at rip-off pricing?

 There are no borders to human stupidity ..._

 

Just don't buy a power cable. That is all you have to do. It is OK. Especially if you do not know anything about them. Before making such remarks about fraud. Make some cables use some silver, silver plated copper, pure copper wire with some rhodium, silver, copper , brass IEC's. Have a mini meet to audition cables with others to experience different opinions and maybe learn something new? Try this before making bold statements about "fraud" and "There are no borders to human to human stupidity" toward power cables. Please do your homework first. Go to a local audio store, ask to audition cables and ask a lot of questions. You can't get all your answers behind a computer?


----------



## Head Injury

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *BIG POPPA* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You can't get all your answers behind a computer?_

 

Why can't you?

 Unless you've got a very good audio store, asking questions there may just lead in the wrong direction because they're _trying_ to sell you cables. People on the internet, barring the obvious attempts at bolstering the ego, are for the most part just trying to spread info around. I consider that a purer motive.


----------



## fhuang

it is really a waste of time.......


----------



## sachu

Power cords don't do anything...its all a sham.


----------



## fzman

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rsaavedra* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Quoting from Wikipedia: The burden of proof ...


 Check also the chart they have further down entitled "Asymmetry in the Burden of Proof," and compare the amount of burden for the claims "Fairies exists" vs. the claim "Fairies do not exist."


 There is only one positive claim being discussed here, and that is: "expensive power cords make an audible difference compared to decently built power cords, like simple hospital grade ones." That is only one claim, the asymmetry of the burden of proof here lies clearly on the side making such positive claim._

 

You make some good points, although I think they are not quite right--

 I am not advocating that expensive cords are better- only that properly designed/made ones can be better than those of generic construction-- "expensive" is not the point.

 also, I agree that the burden of proof, in general, can be asymmetrical, but that actually is my point. It simply begs the question that audiophile power cords are sufficiently like 'faeries' to warrant a radically asymmetrical burden of proof.

 Part of what bothers me about this sort of debate, is that people make too many assumptions, and do not join the actual argument- but argue against straw men, or positions that their opponent has not actually taken.

 I do not think that every so-called audiophile power cord is good, priced fairly, or gives better performance than "stock" cords -- likewise for interconnects and speaker cables.

 The question is whether there are measurable and/or audible differences resulting from different cable designs/ materials/constructions. It would be useful to consider substantive claims about geometry, dielectrics, connector metallurgy, etc.....

 we might actually learn something.


----------



## fzman

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Head Injury* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Why can't you?

 Unless you've got a very good audio store, asking questions there may just lead in the wrong direction because they're trying to sell you cables. People on the internet, barring the obvious attempts at bolstering the ego, are for the most part just trying to spread info around. I consider that a purer motive._

 

This seems like a compelling consideration, and seems like it really is correct. However, if you consider the facts-- it is really not true in the way that it is intended- as an appeal to "authority", so to speak.

 1. we mostly have no idea who the internet pundit is-- and what their actual knowledge/experience/agenda really is.
 2. said pundit has no responsibility incurred by giving "advice" on the net.
 3. retailer is known, and has something at stake-- reputation. most businesses rely heavily on repeat business and word of mouth- if you screw people you forfeit both. any retailer that stands behind his products and offers a money-back return policy has more at stake, and is actually taking responsibility for his/her actions. the internet "expert" is simply typing words on a keyboard.

 Researching online is only part of the data you should amass. Trying things for yourself is at least equally important.


----------



## fzman

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rsaavedra* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_And... time's up. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

 hey! you didn;t specify which time zone!!!!


----------



## waterlogic

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *BIG POPPA* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just don't buy a power cable. That is all you have to do. It is OK. Especially if you do not know anything about them. Before making such remarks about fraud. Make some cables use some silver, silver plated copper, pure copper wire with some rhodium, silver, copper , brass IEC's. Have a mini meet to audition cables with others to experience different opinions and maybe learn something new? Try this before making bold statements about "fraud" and "There are no borders to human to human stupidity" toward power cables. Please do your homework first. Go to a local audio store, ask to audition cables and ask a lot of questions. You can't get all your answers behind a computer?_

 

I am in high-end audio for more than 25 years - and the power cable fraud is the dirtiest in this hi-end audio business. One of my best friends is 40 years in audio business - so trust me I had a chance to do my power-wire homework many many times without punishing my bank account .
 If you hear a difference - it is your imagination, sure.


----------



## BIG POPPA

OK, it is like this. If you don't trust someone else make your own. It does not take rocket science to know how a power cable works in audio system. If you have a cheap consumer audio rig, you may not get the full benefits of and audio grade power cable. If you do not learn the metallurgy involved you will not learn the benefits of a power cable, if you do not learn the benefits of the different symmetry's you understand the potential of the power cable. I can go on and on. The first question I would ask myself, would my gear benefit from upgrading power cables? If not, leave them alone. If so, purchase them if you can't build them enjoy them, if not sell them. What is so hard? I don't understand? You can't say that all power cables are a fraud. If you can't hear a difference great. But don't speak for me. I have a rig that is easy to tell the difference in power cables and interconnects. I have cables that have been made by reputable Manufacturers Like PS Audio and Grado. I prefer the ones I have made at the moment. Doesn't mean I do not like stuff like the Oyaide Tunami cable.
 Learning about power cables is like anything else, trial and error. You can read all you want. You will never know how it sounds until it is plugged to your gear.


----------



## rsaavedra

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *waterlogic* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If you hear a difference - it is your imagination_

 

Exactly. That is the very core of the problem, people won't believe it is their imagination.

 Audio enthusiasts tend to think human perception is flawless. There´s the moon illusion right there for everyone to "open their eyes" (quite literally) about how our own senses and cognition can fool us so miserably. There's cognitive science and critical thinking to instruct on the many cognitive biases that our cognitive machinery tends to fall for. There's that which must not be named (whose acronym starts with a D, followed by a B, and ends with a T) to identify when and where those biases are in place playing tricks on us. Yet, it is really a personal decision in the end, for anyone to be willing to mistrust his/her own personal judgement in order to live outside of lies. Apparently quite too many people don't mind living in lies, even if it costs $$$$ for nothing.


----------



## BIG POPPA

So you are saying an Power Cable that is made with 14AWG copper wire with copper plugs sounds the same with as a power cable made with 14AWG pure silver wire with silver plugs. Really you have listen to these cables and know for sure it is just imagination? If someone has an all silver cable I would like to borrow it for the next Seattle meet to see what the Head-fiers think?


----------



## waterlogic

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *BIG POPPA* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_OK, it is like this. If you don't trust someone else make your own. It does not take rocket science to know how a power cable works in audio system. If you have a cheap consumer audio rig, you may not get the full benefits of and audio grade power cable. If you do not learn the metallurgy involved you will not learn the benefits of a power cable, if you do not learn the benefits of the different symmetry's you understand the potential of the power cable. I can go on and on. The first question I would ask myself, would my gear benefit from upgrading power cables? If not, leave them alone. If so, purchase them if you can't build them enjoy them, if not sell them. What is so hard? I don't understand? You can't say that all power cables are a fraud. If you can't hear a difference great. But don't speak for me. I have a rig that is easy to tell the difference in power cables and interconnects. I have cables that have been made by reputable Manufacturers Like PS Audio and Grado. I prefer the ones I have made at the moment. Doesn't mean I do not like stuff like the Oyaide Tunami cable.
 Learning about power cables is like anything else, trial and error. You can read all you want. You will never know how it sounds until it is plugged to your gear._

 

Looks you are in cable business, my friend also sells them among other high-end electronics & speakers . 
 For his private chain cca 45 000 $ (speakers are 30000$ Shahinian Diapasons), he uses stock speaker cable with banana terminals, stock wire interconnects with Eichman terminals, stock power cables. He is familiar with all possible "tweaks" and well aware of all ridiculous nonsense and voodoo b------t.
 He never suggests his customers to buy fancy cabling, but when they do buy them (because they look really nice) he is glad because the margins are over 60% with such ""high-tech"" fancies ...


----------



## rsaavedra

Here's a very educational video on open-mindedness vs. close-mindedness:

YouTube - Open-mindedness

 PS. And as an addendum, the list of cognitive biases in Wikipedia.


----------



## BIG POPPA

For the price of the cable who cares what the mark up is? If you don't feel comfortable dealing what that company don't buy it. You really can't say all cable company's are like this? I'm sure there are a few but for some reason I have stayed away from them building relationships with reputable retailers. Like anything you just have to know who you are doing business with. No big deal.


----------



## Head Injury

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fzman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This seems like a compelling consideration, and seems like it really is correct. However, if you consider the facts-- it is really not true in the way that it is intended- as an appeal to "authority", so to speak.

 1. we mostly have no idea who the internet pundit is-- and what their actual knowledge/experience/agenda really is.
 2. said pundit has no responsibility incurred by giving "advice" on the net.
 3. retailer is known, and has something at stake-- reputation. most businesses rely heavily on repeat business and word of mouth- if you screw people you forfeit both. any retailer that stands behind his products and offers a money-back return policy has more at stake, and is actually taking responsibility for his/her actions. the internet "expert" is simply typing words on a keyboard.

 Researching online is only part of the data you should amass. Trying things for yourself is at least equally important._

 

1. When it comes to cable sellers, oftentimes we don't know what their actual knowledge/experience is either. They may spout facts, but there's no way of really knowing of those facts affect sound unless they're studied. And the cable seller is just spouting those facts to sell cables. Look at Virtual Dynamics and that thread with the kitty cat and the garden hose cable. VD pretty much flat out said that they don't know why what they do with their cables makes a difference, but that "it does".

 3. The point about reputation is almost moot when it comes to audio equipment. Until it's found out that the seller is lying, their reputation remains. In many markets it happens quickly. A blender doesn't blend the way it's supposed to, a computer crashes or overheats, pencil lead is actual lead and toxic, etc. In audio it takes a lot longer for the truth to come out, provided a few things. You tell someone they can hear a difference, then they're happy. It doesn't have to actually make a difference, and if the buyer is convinced reputation remains or even grows. If the build quality is good (easy enough to do when charging so much for wire), and if the customer service is helpful (easy enough when selling on a small scale as audio often is), only research will really tarnish the reputation. I mean, look at the power cable market now. Even though so many people don't believe in it (and thus unsatisfied), the market remains and individual retailers do fine. But once word gets out about build quality (use VD as an example again)...

 Is #2 a distinct point? I kind of lump it into #3 because the seller's responsibility is closely tied to reputation. If reputation isn't threatened, their only responsibility is to try to sell more cables.

 Wow rsaavedra, I'm reading through those biases now. So far almost all of them apply to audiophiles. Especially bandwagon effect and expectation bias.


----------



## haloxt

Sorry but this is SCIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIENCE, ergo everything rsaavedra says is true. Try to be more open-minded and realize that everything contrary to what he and waterlogic believe is wrong.


----------



## Head Injury

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sorry but this is SCIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIENCE, ergo everything rsaavedra says is true. Try to be more open-minded and realize that everything contrary to what he and waterlogic believe is wrong._

 

I wouldn't go that far, but I'm certainly more willing to believe them than someone who just tries to troll the non-believers out of the thread.


----------



## haloxt

That's like saying you like a certain color insect better than another color insect.


----------



## Head Injury

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's like saying you like a certain color insect better than another color insect._

 

No, that's like saying I like music more than noise. One makes more sense and sounds a lot better.


----------



## rsaavedra

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Head Injury* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wow rsaavedra, I'm reading through those biases now. So far almost all of them apply to audiophiles. Especially bandwagon effect and expectation bias._

 

Most definitely. But to be fair, in fact all of them apply to all human beings, audiophiles certainly among them.


----------



## Drag0n

Cables definately make a sound difference. Is it always better.......NO.
 Is the more expensive cable always the better cable for your system..........NO.
 I never heard AC power cord comparisons yet, so i dont know about them. Its a different concept than interconnects and speaker cables.

 I have a Tara RCA Interconnect here, and you can definately hear a difference when its in the line. It muddies up my system when i use it. People usually use that cable on systems that are too forward and bright.

 I dont think short 4 inch portable mini to mini cables make a difference because theyre too short to impart enough characteristics into the sound, or maybe my hearing isnt good enough to hear the very slight difference.
 On portables i use a RadioShack $5 grey cable, even though i do have a few more expensive cables.


----------



## SP Wild

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Drag0n* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Cables definately make a sound difference. Is it always better.......NO.
 Is the more expensive cable always the better cable for your system..........NO.
 I never heard AC power cord comparisons yet, so i dont know about them. Its a different concept than interconnects and speaker cables.

 I have a Tara RCA Interconnect here, and you can definately hear a difference when its in the line. It muddies up my system when i use it. People usually use that cable on systems that are too forward and bright.

 I dont think short 4 inch portable mini to mini cables make a difference because theyre too short to impart enough characteristics into the sound, or maybe my hearing isnt good enough to hear the very slight difference.
 On portables i use a RadioShack $5 grey cable, even though i do have a few more expensive cables._

 

Really! WOW, because of your "evidence", I as a newbie have been convinced by your statement to part with $50,000 for a power cable.


----------



## BIG POPPA

Instead of looking for somebody's else's proof on how power cables work or not. Create your own proof. Best way to know for sure? At it would be really cool if others were there to check out you findings? Get multiple posts from other head-fiers. That would be cool!


----------



## rsaavedra

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *BIG POPPA* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Instead of looking for somebody's else's proof on how power cables work or not. Create your own proof. Best way to know for sure? At it would be really cool if others were there to check out you findings? Get multiple posts from other head-fiers. That would be cool!_

 

Wow, You are already talking about "creating your own proof." That is so biased already that is not even funny. A more biased vocabulary would be hard to come up with. You are starting from a position of total conviction on a result, yet suggesting the worst possible methodology to test the claim at stake.

 If you tried to "create your own proof" about the moon illusion not being an illusion, because you believed it truly looks bigger near the horizon, and asked fellow "creators of their own proofs" to share with you the results of said own proofs, how do you think that will turn out? How much closer to the truth do you think you'll get that way?

 :/

 Obviously, you are *not* getting it.

 Believing that the "best way to know for sure" is to check for yourself, just listening, with your own sensory and cognitive machinery and their limitations and biases, and *with no proper methodology*, and to check with fellow uncritical believers, is at the very core of the problem.

 You will not be proving absolutely anything that way. You are just proceeding in a way to make it easy for your biases and beliefs to be confirmed, to keep believing whatever you already believe, or to validate what you want to believe. It's not a way to truly test a claim in an objective and unattached, unbiased manner.

 What you suggest is actually the worst possible way to truly test the matter at stake.


----------



## rsaavedra

And in case you don't know about proper attempts of testing whether cables make a difference, why would you think anyone would miss $1 million dollars if they simply had to prove (under appropriate testing conditions) that they can hear differences with cables?

Pear Cable CEO Calls James Randi's $1 Million Offer a Hoax - JREF Forum

Pear Cable Chickens Out of $1,000,000 Challenge, We Search For Answers | Gizmodo Australia

 What is more, that challenge was related to comparing speaker cables. Power cord cables, which are plugged on the other side of an AC-DC power supply (that is, clearly outside of the signal path), are way farther removed from affecting the final audio we perceive than speaker cables or interconnects.


----------



## BIG POPPA

Thinking practical? For example, I just get my Woo 3+. The idea pops in my head " an upgraded power cable may help the sound of my amp". What do I do next? Read all the threads on the 3+ to get an idea what other people are using with the amp. Define the sound I am looking for. This is the most important part. Do I want to soften the sound, bring the music forward, etc,etc,etc. Next, ask someone who I trust to point me in the right direction to achieve the sound I am looking for. Then I buy the cable or parts to make the cable I am looking for. If I like the cable great, if not, return or sell it. If the DIY cable doesn't sound what I was looking for, just try it again. 
 There is no way to learn something absolute with out spending money to hear for yourself on your rig. You can go to meets, and I highly recommend this you will save money.
 But to read about DBT on gear to see if they really work is a waste of time in this hobby because it all breaks down to 2 things. It will work for your rig or it won't. How you get there is up to you and I will try it first before telling people it doesn't work. More fun that way.


----------



## haloxt

The difference between you and anticablers is you have fun testing cables and they have fun telling you you're wrong. You keep saying you perceive a difference, and they keep demanding objective proof immune to subjective fallacy (to put it euphemistically) when you aren't interested in providing it.


----------



## BIG POPPA

Another thought. I have a Woo3+ modified and an Arcam 73t. Both can use an upgraded power cable. What is the way to get the best cable for each? How does everybody else get a power cable?


----------



## JaZZ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rsaavedra* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If you tried to "create your own proof" about the moon illusion not being an illusion, because you believed it truly looks bigger near the horizon, and asked fellow "creators of their own proofs" to share with you the results of said own proofs, how do you think that will turn out? How much closer to the truth do you think you'll get that way?_

 

That's a bad example for illustrating your position. It's a fact that the moon appears to be bigger near the horizon. The appropriate analogy would be an altered sonic perception.

 I haven't heard a clear difference between different power cords (none of them high-end, though) so far, therefore I'm still skeptical in this regard. But the best thing you can do is listen to components in your own setup with an open mind and the necessary caution in terms of placebo effects. It's not a perfect evaluation method, but the only practicable one.
.


----------



## sachu

I just replaced my over 3 decade old wall receptacle with a new Hospital Grade Hubbell 20A one...wowzers..what a difference!!


----------



## BIG POPPA

Try an Oyaide R1. That is what I have in my wall.


----------



## rsaavedra

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JaZZ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's a bad example for illustrating your position. It's a fact that the moon appears to be bigger near the horizon._

 

And why is that a bad example again?

 People do believe it does look bigger near the horizon, but it really does not. It _appears_ to look bigger. The key word there is appear. Optically speaking it can be shown that it does not really _look _or _appear_ any bigger there, in spite of what our eyes tell us. 

 It might happen similarly with other perceptions. It might appear that things sound different one way or the other, when they actually don't. Our senses can fool us. Anecdotical and personal empirical "evidence" proves nothing. That's the point.

 PS. By the way, about the appropriateness of the moon illusion analogy in this context, here's what someone else had to say about it in the JREF forums: http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php...&postcount=576


----------



## JaZZ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rsaavedra* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_And why is that a bad example again?

 People do believe it does look bigger near the horizon, but it really does not. It appears to look bigger. The key word there is appear. Optically speaking it can be shown that it does not really look or appear any bigger there, in spite of what our eyes tell us._

 

Well, I thought you were talking about atmospheric distortion. However, if you're talking of an illusion caused by the optical proximity of distant objects on the horizon, this doesn't have an appropriate analogy in music reproduction.
.


----------



## KingStyles

Why do we need proof of anything. If you dont believe that it will make a difference than be happy that you are saving money. If you do believe it will make a difference than be happy that you found something that can improve your system. There isnt a right or wrong answer here. Hearing can be subjective or even a placebo. What one piece of proof says cant happen another persons ears will say it is happening. So we end up going around and around on a forum to justify our views untill everybody gets frustrated and quits. Thus hardening there views on the subject even more allowing even less chance of ever being persuaded that the other side might be partially right also. Then there will be a new post on it next month. Why do we keep fighting this battle? Im going to experiment myself with power cords and make up my mind myself. Then I wont be persuaded either way and allow myself to further have the opportunity to see the other side if I dont find a diference at first.


----------



## haloxt

It's like watching the waves move up and down a beach for a few hours hoping to see something different. Some people still think the wave might swallow the land, or the ocean will disappear if they look hard enough or try hard enough, but all that ever happens is the same back and forth movement -_-.


----------



## rsaavedra

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It's like watching the waves move up and down a beach for a few hours hoping to see something different. Some people still think the wave might swallow the land, or the ocean will disappear if they look hard enough or try hard enough, but all that ever happens is the same back and forth movement -_-._

 

That is true. Yet, I'm really not doing this for fun. Some people do appreciate clear explanations and getting their eyes opened. I've seen it happening before, not just in audio but in some other contexts of life. And in any case, it's always right to challenge dubious claims (a.k.a. BS) and make people aware of when things claimed to be factual are really far from that.


----------



## haloxt

All of us know there's not yet been DBT proving audible cable differences, and that the claim is based upon anecdotal evidence. You keep asking for proof when we don't care to provide it. I'm all for opening eyes, you should try it sometime and realize this fact.


----------



## rsaavedra

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_All of us know there's not yet been DBT proving audible cable differences, and that the claim is based upon anecdotal evidence. You keep asking for proof when we don't care to provide it. I'm all for opening eyes, you should try it sometime and realize this fact._

 

No, you misunderstand my aim. I'm not actually asking anyone for proof. I'm merely making people aware of the state of the claim that expensive power cord cables make a difference, and what would be needed to truly prove such a dubious claim. In other words, I'm repeating the boiler analogy and the challenge to such claim, because people keep repeating the claim as if it was fact. That's all. Just keeping a critical thinking mind and trying to share critical thinking. Combating BS, instead of trying to spread BS. That's all.


----------



## waterlogic

There are people who can see different colours when they are exposed to sounds and music.
 A young lady from Switzerland Elisabeth Sulzer is the only human (as far as known to science todate) that can taste sounds and music and also see different colours for different tones, pitches etc...

 She never goes to disco clubs, for the music there she says tastes so awful that she can not stand it.

 I wonder what taste she might experience listening to power wire music - smoked reptile oil ???


----------



## Head Injury

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *waterlogic* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There are people who can see different colours when they are exposed to sounds and music.
 A young lady from Switzerland Elisabeth Sulzer is the only human (as far as known to science todate) that can taste sounds and music and also see different colours for different tones, pitches etc...

 She never goes to disco clubs, for the music there she says tastes so awful that she can not stand it.

 I wonder what taste she might experience listening to power wire music - smoked reptile oil ???_

 

This would make for a good forum game. What color would X brand headphones sound like?

 What I hear of as Sennheiser's sound reminds me of blue or green. For some reason electrostats seem like they'd sound yellow.

 A new level in the audiophile experience. Can't wait for genetics to advance that far.


----------



## haloxt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rsaavedra* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No, you misunderstand my aim. I'm not actually asking anyone for proof. I'm merely making people aware of the state of the claim that expensive power cord cables make a difference, and what would be needed to truly prove such a dubious claim. In other words, I'm repeating the boiler analogy and the challenge to such claim, because people keep repeating the claim as if it was fact. That's all. Just keeping a critical thinking mind and trying to share critical thinking. Combating BS, instead of trying to spread BS. That's all._

 

As far as I can tell, the only person in this thread who did anything close to saying "what would be needed to truly prove such a dubious claim" was fzman, and he got the "I AM SCIIIIIIENCE" *Kill the messenger* treatment. Everyone here knows no DBT has proven cable differences, and anyone who thinks their subjective experiences are infallible are kooky beyond being helped by online forums. When this silly thread is dead we will have returned to the beginning without having learned anything.


----------



## rsaavedra

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_As far as I can tell, the only person in this thread who did anything close to saying "what would be needed to truly prove such a dubious claim" was fzman_

 

You might not have read all posts carefully enough: 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *BIG POPPA* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Instead of looking for somebody's else's proof on how power cables work or not. Create your own proof. Best way to know for sure? At it would be really cool if others were there to check out you findings? Get multiple posts from other head-fiers. That would be cool!_

 

With respect to your other comment:
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_When this silly thread is dead we will have returned to the beginning without having learned anything._

 

I disagree though. I think the boiler analogy is or can be very instructive, as well as some other analogies I've written about related to electricity.

 In this thread, as well as in the JREF forums (full of skeptical people) the feedback of some members is encouraging with respect to posts I've submitted like the ones below, which attempt to spread science and critical thinking, against the typical repetition of unfounded and highly questionable claims so commonly found in audio forums:

JREF Forum - Pear Cable CEO Calls James Randi's $1 Million Offer a Hoax - Post #566

JREF Forum - Pear Cable CEO Calls James Randi's $1 Million Offer a Hoax - Post #567

JREF Forum - Pear Cable CEO Calls James Randi's $1 Million Offer a Hoax - Post #585


----------



## waterlogic

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Everyone here knows no DBT has proven cable differences, and anyone who thinks their subjective experiences are infallible are kooky beyond being helped by online forums. When this silly thread is dead we will have returned to the beginning without having learned anything._

 

Cca 80 % of all nerve comunication lines go from your brains to your hearing organ i.e. 20 % lines go in the opposite direction. Chances are that the brain tells your ears how and what to hear based on year long data/experience/learning about the outside world. That is why DBT is important if you want to come closer to what is as opposed to what it is not in your hi-fi chain (outside of your brain physical reality). 

 The moment a pseudo reproduction is wired into your brain you do not need a hi-fi chain and power-wire to feed it. You become a human music processing device and you can hear cymbals from haven etc i.e. whatever you can dream you can do, hear ... And this thread and also whatever human communication is not about this. For minimum communication between people they have to agree upon certain chriteria that can be behold by each individual beyond any doubt. DBT is such one chriteria.

 And you learn all your life, inevitably you like it or not until you die.
 You see, a feeling that you have learned nothing is your brain trick of trade to help you build a defense wall against unpleasant present feeling, but this will pass if you just let it go and start to communicate.

 Cheers


----------



## BIG POPPA

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rsaavedra* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No, you misunderstand my aim. I'm not actually asking anyone for proof. I'm merely making people aware of the state of the claim that expensive power cord cables make a difference, and what would be needed to truly prove such a dubious claim. In other words, I'm repeating the boiler analogy and the challenge to such claim, because people keep repeating the claim as if it was fact. That's all. Just keeping a critical thinking mind and trying to share critical thinking. Combating BS, instead of trying to spread BS. That's all._

 

What do you consider an expensive cable? Dollar amounts would help in your opinion . Expensive is a relative term. What is expensive to you may not be to somebody else. 
 What gear did you find that the "expensive" cables did not work? What cables where they? Just trying to understand your opinion.


----------



## rsaavedra

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *BIG POPPA* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What do you consider an expensive cable? Dollar amounts would help in your opinion . Expensive is a relative term. What is expensive to you may not be to somebody else. 
 What gear did you find that the "expensive" cables did not work? What cables where they? Just trying to understand your opinion._

 

Let me rather say what was clearly *not* expensive: two Quail power cords I purchased in a group buy here on Headfi (here's another thread related to that group buy.) Awesomely built, shielded, hospital grade power cords. Not including shipping they were $10 a piece. (<-- That's ten dollars, no error there.) One of these is powering my Dynahi; the other is powering this PC I'm writing from.


----------



## haloxt

rsaavedra, I want you to copy and paste these questions to big poppa "Do you think there's been DBT proving cable differences?" and "Do you think your senses are infallible?"

 waterlogic, I have never denounced DBT (okay, sometimes when I'm feeling cynical). You know that the mind can misinterpret, but that is not just an argument against our ability to hear minute differences. It is also an argument for being more careful in testing our ability to hear minute differences. I have seen some anticablers declaring there is conclusive disproof for conscious audible differences and citing dumb experiments as evidence. If you want a proper DBT, do it yourself, don't run around asking people on an audiophile forum to do it for your pleasure.


----------



## rsaavedra

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_rsaavedra, I want you to copy and paste these questions to big poppa "Do you think there's been DBT proving cable differences?" and "Do you think your senses are infallible?"_

 

And haloxt, I want you to copy and paste the full contents of this thread into a text editor, then save it somewhere in your harddrive. Then find all spelling mistakes in it.

 I just thought it was only fair to let you know what I wanted as well.


----------



## rsaavedra

You can see the Quail power cord on the right in this pic of my Dynahi:







 PS. The cable on the left is one I made myself; carries the DC from the power supply module to the amp module. Made it with these, which IIRC are in total less than $10:







 PS': For more pics of my Dynahi, check the link in my signature below.


----------



## waterlogic

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ I have seen some anticablers declaring there is conclusive disproof for conscious audible differences and citing dumb experiments as evidence. If you want a proper DBT, do it yourself, don't run around asking people on an audiophile forum to do it for your pleasure._

 

There is a problem/question :

*How much does the power cable really do?*

 If we want to find an answer to this question first we have to agree upon, what mutually accepted methods are to be used.
 DBT is one method (as you say you accept it, or?).
 If you feel this is ok, but not good enough please suggest and explain which additional method(s) do you suggest. If you argument it, I do not see why I should not accept it ? 
 No need to run around other people, we can do it ourselves. Our findings will never be dumb since we will agree on the methods to test the influence of cable beforehand, or ?

 This is the only way to solve the problem. So how can this tread be silly or useless?
 Since you joined this thread I take it for granted you are eager to find the answer no matter what the result is, as much as I am.

 There is only one human activity which per se does not allow for such testing it is Art/Imagination i.e. either I do understand your art (painting, piece of music etc) or I do not. Either I like it or not...


----------



## BIG POPPA

rsaavedra, The reason I was asking on price on the cables you were using is because I build my own cables using Oyaide Power Plug P-037 Silver Rhodium by Revolution Power
 and
Oyaide 4781BSR Silver Rhodium IEC Connector by Revolution Power
 with this cable
Furutech FP-314Ag - Silver Plated Power cable by Revolution Power

 I like this cable for my tube amp. Have more that I have made using good parts. Even have a PS Audio Punch Power to use as a reference with the cables I make.


----------



## haloxt

waterlogic, I think DBT is fine, but it has to be properly implemented. Having ten minute tests where you have an audience try to hear a difference between mystery cable A and mystery cable B is not scientific proof of anything. If people are serious about doing a DBT, they should not try to stack the odds against people hearing a difference. They should do everything that is reasonably within their power to allow someone to show, if he can, that he has the ability to discern cable differences. But honestly though, I don't care if anyone proves it or not, there's a reason why cable discussions are like they are, and a reason why controversial topics everywhere else are the way they are. People don't care for science, they care for being right.


----------



## Head Injury

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_waterlogic, I think DBT is fine, but it has to be properly implemented. Having ten minute tests where you have an audience try to hear a difference between mystery cable A and mystery cable B is not scientific proof of anything. If people are serious about doing a DBT, they should not try to stack the odds against people hearing a difference. They should do everything that is reasonably within their power to allow someone to show, if he can, that he has the ability to discern cable differences. But honestly though, I don't care if anyone proves it or not, there's a reason why cable discussions are like they are, and a reason why controversial topics everywhere else are the way they are. People don't care for science, they care for being right._

 

Yes, that's a good point and necessary to answer the question of whether or not there's a difference.

 However, one shouldn't need more than ten minutes to answer the question of the thread title (which ultimately got pushed to the back of the line by the cable discussion bullies and believers). How much does the power cable really do? If one can't find the difference in ten minutes, then it may not be enough to warrant a purchase if there are still upgrades to be had elsewhere in the system.


----------



## haloxt

My hypothesis is better than your hypothesis.


----------



## Head Injury

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My hypothesis is better than your hypothesis._

 

But my hypothesis can beat up your hypothesis.


----------



## sachu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *BIG POPPA* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_rsaavedra, The reason I was asking on price on the cables you were using is because I build my own cables using Oyaide Power Plug P-037 Silver Rhodium by Revolution Power
 and
Oyaide 4781BSR Silver Rhodium IEC Connector by Revolution Power
 with this cable
Furutech FP-314Ag - Silver Plated Power cable by Revolution Power

 I like this cable for my tube amp. Have more that I have made using good parts. Even have a PS Audio Punch Power to use as a reference with the cables I make._

 

Actually no connector is the best connection..I plan to eliminate the IEC part of my power cord altogether..Directly wire up the power cable to the amp...of course I am only doing this now that I find my 1$/meter cable (yeah yeah, the hubbell plug on the wall end cost me 13$)sounds far superior than several hundred dollar worth power cables, atleast the ones I have tried.


----------



## BIG POPPA

I prefer the connectors because I can color the sound to my liking. Plus my rig is plugged into a Synergistic Research QLS 6 with a DIY power cable then to the Oyaide R1 receptacle. On my rig, especially with the Woo I can tell the difference with all my cables. I roll fuses, come on now. Very familiar with the sound characteristics of my rig.


----------



## Drag0n

Equipment lasts alot longer without power cables, so maybe you shouldnt use one at all?


----------



## BIG POPPA

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Drag0n* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Equipment lasts alot longer without power cables, so maybe you shouldnt use one at all?



_

 

What am I going to do just look at the gear? Heck no, I'm listening to it right now. Like I do almost every night.


----------



## waterlogic

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_waterlogic, I think DBT is fine, but it has to be properly implemented. Having ten minute tests where you have an audience try to hear a difference between mystery cable A and mystery cable B is not scientific proof of anything. If people are serious about doing a DBT, they should not try to stack the odds against people hearing a difference. They should do everything that is reasonably within their power to allow someone to show, if he can, that he has the ability to discern cable differences. But honestly though, I don't care if anyone proves it or not, there's a reason why cable discussions are like they are, and a reason why controversial topics everywhere else are the way they are. People don't care for science, they care for being right._

 

There is no need for audience (many people). Just you and me. I switch the cables and you listen. No 10 minutes limit, take as much time as you need.
 Guess what? I bet you will never find any qualified difference as long as you cannot see the cables (I am saying this because we did it many times - always the same result - no, nada, niente, nichs, zero difference)
 Cheers


----------



## waterlogic

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *BIG POPPA* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I prefer the connectors because I can color the sound to my liking. Plus my rig is plugged into a Synergistic Research QLS 6 with a DIY power cable then to the Oyaide R1 receptacle. On my rig, especially with the Woo I can tell the difference with all my cables. I roll fuses, come on now. Very familiar with the sound characteristics of my rig._

 

You mean colour like painting (Van Gogh, Michelangelo, DaVinci) ??
 You must be the world champion in auto-suggestion. It is only you who can see the colours (I trust you, you probably can) but you are of no use for the rest of us. We can see Da Vinci's Mona Lisa etc., where is yours "Mona Lisa"?
 Looks like only in your brain theatre, where we have no access !?


----------



## Prog Rock Man

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My hypothesis is better than your hypothesis._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Head Injury* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_But my hypothesis can beat up your hypothesis._

 

The best hypothesis so far are the above hypothesis, which whilst contradicting each other, do not cancel either out, so allowing the progression of both hypothesis to another round.


----------



## fzman

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rsaavedra* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No, you misunderstand my aim. I'm not actually asking anyone for proof. I'm merely making people aware of the state of the claim that expensive power cord cables make a difference, and what would be needed to truly prove such a dubious claim. In other words, I'm repeating the boiler analogy and the challenge to such claim, because people keep repeating the claim as if it was fact. That's all. Just keeping a critical thinking mind and trying to share critical thinking. Combating BS, instead of trying to spread BS. That's all._

 

there you go sneaking in the word 'expensive' again, to emotionally load the discussion. we are both concerned with what constitutes a proper power cord, and what makes one better than another (if such is possible). I have asked repeatedly for you to specify specific adequacy conditions. Seems like the simple answer would be that at least some people could tell them apart by listening to them. But, you seem to think that no listening can work, because our senses are intrinsically flawed. It is almost by definition, in your view.

 thus it would nt be hard to extrapolate by your first principles that no sonic difference is relevant- since they are perceived by hearing.

 hard to argue with that- it is such a tidy, safe world-view!


----------



## rsaavedra

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fzman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_you seem to think that no listening can work_

 

 Wrong. "No listening can work" is not what I've stated. I've said "Our sense of listening can fool us," which is a different thing.


----------



## rsaavedra

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *BIG POPPA* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_rsaavedra, The reason I was asking on price on the cables you were using is because I build my own cables_

 

From the items you linked to, the price of your power cord seems to be around $200. That's 20x the price of my Quail power cord. I'd say 20x the price of something that performs exactly the same function is definitely expensive. That's just my opinion of course.


----------



## fzman

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rsaavedra* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wrong. "No listening can work" is not what I've stated. I've said "Our sense of listening can fool us," which is a different thing._

 

your argument relies heavily on the 'unreliability of the senses' claims that you make- and it seems like it is no coincidence that it is precisely when people claim to hear differences in power cords that those are the specific faulty perceptions- and they are faulty because you stipulate the power cords make no difference-- this is a circular argument, and proves nothing.

 what you do not seem to understand is that your 'unreliability of the senses' claim strongly undermines _all _listening data/claims, a la the Cartesian question regarding dreaming. You may think you've avoid it, but only by implying that only the listening tests which agree with your preconceptions are the correct ones. That too, is circular reasoning.


----------



## rsaavedra

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fzman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_this is a circular argument_

 

For someone who applies flawed reasoning, and who has not read carefully what I've written, maybe.


----------



## JaZZ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rsaavedra* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_For someone who applies flawed reasoning, and who has not read carefully what I've written, maybe._

 

I think his arguments are valid – and would have been my own. You just accept spontaneous/sighted listening tests when the test subject fulfills your expectations in terms of plausibility of differences. That's a circumscription of preconceptions.

 I for one make no difference when it comes to audition audio components.
.


----------



## fhuang

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_All of us know there's not yet been DBT proving audible cable differences, and that the claim is based upon anecdotal evidence. You keep asking for proof when we don't care to provide it. I'm all for opening eyes, you should try it sometime and realize this fact._

 



 actually i think most of us stop caring talking about cables here at head-fi. it's just not worth the time and effort explaining. 

 sorry to any noobie who want honest opinion on cables because we simply can't/won't talk cables here.


----------



## Prog Rock Man

I have started to make my own cables. Far more fun and learning is to be had on the DIY threads than the Sound Science threads. DIY is cheaper, fun and no one gets bogged down in spurious claims that can never be validated.


----------



## rsaavedra

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JaZZ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think his arguments are valid_

 

And that makes the two of you.

 People, stop the lousy rhetoric and BS. What is the extraordinary claim here at stake? "Expensive power cords make an audible difference." 

 Hopefully, we agree on the fact that _that_ is the claim in question here.

 I think we also agreed already on the fact that the side making the extraordinary claim is the one where the burden of proof lies. So if there's anything to prove here, is that claim in question.

 But *I'm challenging that claim*, people, in case you didn't notice.

 I'm not proving anything, and I don't have to prove anything. It's the side advocating the extraordinary (and challenged) claim the one that would need to prove anything, if there's anything to prove here.

 Haloxt at least recognized that you aren't interested in providing said proof:
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You keep saying you perceive a difference, and they keep demanding objective proof immune to subjective fallacy (to put it euphemistically) when you aren't interested in providing it._

 

That's ok. But then, don't pretend that the claim is fact and will stop being challenged just because you believe in it.

 Therefore, I'm not presenting any "argument" in support of any claim that is being challenged here. So I don't know whatever circularity you guys are supposed to be referring to in an "argument" that comes from me. I've no argument to make circular here, people. So stop the BS.

 I'm advocating skepticism, have already said it. I'm pointing to the fact that you haven't provided appropriate evidence for _your_ extraordinary claim, and I've provided easy to understand explanations and analogies, and links to cognitive biases and how our senses can fool us, to possibly spark more skepticism in whoever is reading here about this claim being challenged. That's all.


----------



## haloxt

Oh yes, I saw JaZZ and fzman and big poppa all say under oath that cables were proven to be audibly different in DBT. They are lying liars and should back up their claims!!11!. I even saw fhuang and Sachu preaching to elementary school kids that cables make a difference and that sticking their fingers in the electrical outlet cures cancer, poisoning the collective minds of our youth. We must inoculate them with skepsis or risk certain dark ages in the next few years. Skepticists, unite!


----------



## JaZZ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rsaavedra* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_People, stop the lousy rhetoric and BS. What is the extraordinary claim here at stake? "Expensive power cords make an audible difference."_

 

But that wasn't the statement of yours to which I responded. As mentioned, I don't hear differences with power cords so far.

  Quote:


 _I think we also agreed already on the fact that the side making the extraordinary claim is the one where the burden of proof lies._ 
 

No, «we» don't agree on that. Nobody has the burden of proof. That would be a scientific task, and this is normal Head-Fi territory where anecdotal evidence is sufficient.

  Quote:


 _I'm advocating skepticism, have already said it. I'm pointing to the fact that you haven't provided appropriate evidence for your extraordinary claim, and I've provided easy to understand explanations and analogies to possibly spark more skepticism in whoever is reading here about this claim being challenged. That's all._ 
 

Why do you put so much effort into this mission? I wonder what's the motive behind it. I believe to remember that you've been a cable-sound proponent not too long ago. Or am I wrong?
.


----------



## rsaavedra

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JaZZ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Nobody has the burden of proof. That would be a scientific task, and this is normal Head-Fi territory where anecdotal evidence is sufficient._

 

When people making an extraordinary claim don't assume the burden of proof, then other people are always free to challenge said claim, in Head-fi or anywhere, making other people more aware of the fact that said claim, being just anecdotal, can be completely misleading and wrong, even if it has no bad intentions.


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JaZZ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Why do you put so much effort into this mission? I wonder what's the motive behind it. I believe to remember that you've been a cable-sound proponent not too long ago. Or am I wrong?_

 

I have the same motive behind it that I have when saying that there's no proof the rainbow stickers or the quantum chip make any difference. The motive is to challenge something that may be used to fool people into spending money when there's no factual evidence that they will get any benefit. I'm just fond of critical thinking and skepticism.

 I've replaced the power cords in my Marantz receiver and my Toshiba player with thicker power cords, using a Home Depot "orange" garden extension. That doesn't mean I advocate expensive power cords make any difference. 

 I also remember some Headfi meets, and thinking that, for example, some cables sounded slightly brighter than the Zu with the HD650, or some others slightly warmer. Needless to say, with all I've written here and linked to in this thread, you might understand that I don't buy at all what my own hearing makes me believe, unless the comparison is appropriately done. Not even an A/B comparison, but an appropriate DBT test would be the only way to get past our own biases. There's solid evidence to support this. And there's a $1 million dollar challenge still available for whoever thinks otherwise.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fzman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
*your argument relies heavily on the 'unreliability of the senses'.....*_

 

*And your argument relies heavily on the fact that you make money selling expensive power cables*.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rsaavedra* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_And that makes the two of you.

 People, stop the lousy rhetoric and BS. What is the extraordinary claim here at stake? "Expensive power cords make an audible difference." 

 Hopefully, we agree on the fact that that is the claim in question here.

 I think we also agreed already on the fact that the side making the extraordinary claim is the one where the burden of proof lies. So if there's anything to prove here, is that claim in question.

 But *I'm challenging that claim*, people, in case you didn't notice.

 I'm not proving anything, and I don't have to prove anything. It's the side advocating the extraordinary (and challenged) claim the one that would need to prove anything, if there's anything to prove here.

 Haloxt at least recognized that you aren't interested in providing said evidence:


 That's ok. But don't pretend that the claim is fact and will stop being challenged just because you believe in it.

 Therefore, I'm not presenting any "argument" in support of any claim that is being challenged here. So I don't know whatever circularity you guys are supposed to be referring to in an "argument" that comes from me. I've no argument to make circular here, people. I'm advocating skepticism, have already said it. I'm pointing to the fact that you haven't provided appropriate evidence for your extraordinary claim, and I've provided easy to understand explanations and analogies to possibly spark more skepticism in whoever is reading here about this claim being challenged._

 


 Well said. The burden of proof always lies with the person who makes the claim.

 But there might be another way to look at this: 

 If we can agree that there is a lot of anecdotal evidence that strongly suggests that even during rather "informal listening tests", people can hear differences between power cords.... 

 And if we can agree that there is also a lot of anecdotal evidence that suggests that once you are "no longer aware" of which power cord you're listening to, those differences disappear....

 Then perhaps we can also agree that since the people who can hear differences are always aware of what power cords they are using, the differences they have heard are, for what ever reasons, real. 

 As an example, I evaluated two expensive DACs a while ago. I described their sounds as one having a smile EQ curve and the other a frown EQ curve. I was quite convinced of this and posted about it. Then I volume balanced the two DACs and hooked them up to my GS-1 and flipped back and forth between the two inputs. Wow, what a surprise, I couldn't tell them apart. I had to repost that "Chicken tastes better than Crow". 

 Now the curious thing is, that with full knowledge that the DACs sounded exactly the same, when I listened to them, again, separately, their former smile and frown characteristics reappeared. I found it impossible to dismiss my earlier psycho-acoustic impressions. 

 The same thing happened with a USB cable. For some reason and old USB 1 cable with a ferrite (that came with an outboard CD burner) sounded better than any of my USB 2 cables. I knew this wasn't possible, but every time I plug in that old cable it still seems to sound better than the new ones. 

 Go figure!

 USG


----------



## JaZZ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rsaavedra* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_When people making an extraordinary claim don't assume the burden of proof, then other people is always free to challenge said claim, in Head-fi or anywhere, making other people more aware of the fact that said claim, being just anecdotal, can be completely misleading and wrong, even if it has no bad intentions._

 

Of course you're free to challenge every claim on this forum. In turn this doesn't mean anybody has to provide proof just to satisfy your high demands in terms of absolute validity.


  Quote:


 _I have the same motive behind it that I have when saying that there's no proof the rainbow stickers or the quantum chip make any difference. The motive is to challenge something that may be used to fool people into spending money when there's no factual evidence that they will get any benefit. I'm just fond of critical thinking and skepticism.

 Not even an A/B comparison, but an appropriate DBT test would be the only way to get past our own biases. There's solid evidence to support this._ 
 

There's a reason why we don't discuss (the validity of) testing procedures on this part of the forum. On the one hand I regret this rule, since corresponding discussions can be at least entertaining, on the other hand it's also true that they often lead to bad blood, hence I more or less agree with it. So the cable forum is a place to exchange cable experiences. You could still contribute to it in the form of: «I generally don't hear clear and consistent differences in cables.»
.


----------



## rsaavedra

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JaZZ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You could still contribute to it in the form of: «I generally don't hear clear and consistent differences in cables.»
._

 

Fair enough. The point is that I might hear differences, just like any of you, just like everyone else. The fact is, there's no evidence these differences are really there. More so with power cords than any cables in the signal path. People ought to be reminded of this, in particular when the claims about night-and-day sound differences are made to sound doubtlessly factual.


----------



## JaZZ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *upstateguy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Now the curious thing is, that with full knowledge that the DACs sounded exactly the same, when I listened to them, again, separately, their former smile and frown characteristics reappeared. I found it impossible to dismiss my earlier psycho-acoustic impressions. 

 The same thing happened with a USB cable. For some reason and old USB 1 cable with a ferrite (that came with an outboard CD burner) sounded better than any of my USB 2 cables. I knew this wasn't possible, but every time I plug in that old cable it still seems to sound better than the new ones. _

 

In this case I would definitely go with my ears. What more do you want from a component than the sonic trait you like! Does it really matter that «science speaks against it»? Moreover, «with full knowledge that the DACs sounded exactly the same» ... «I knew this wasn't possible» are statements I would never make myself in the context of audio.
.


----------



## haloxt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rsaavedra* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Fair enough. The point is that I might hear differences, just like any of you, just like everyone else. The fact is, there's no evidence these differences are really there. More so with power cords than any cables in the signal path. People ought to be reminded of this._

 

We must remind them ten thousand times, just like they do in reeducation camps.


----------



## BIG POPPA

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Oh yes, I saw JaZZ and fzman and big poppa all say under oath that cables were proven to be audibly different in DBT. They are lying liars and should back up their claims!!11!. I even saw fhuang and Sachu preaching to elementary school kids that cables make a difference and that sticking their fingers in the electrical outlet cures cancer, poisoning the collective minds of our youth. We must inoculate them with skepsis or risk certain dark ages in the next few years. Skepticists, unite!_

 

We are liars? Come on now. That is a harsh opinion. Just because we have a different opinion than you does not make us liars. You are more than welcome to a Seattle meet to roll some cables. You have not proved that the cables on my rig does not make a difference? Have you tried any of the cables that I use? In this case the proof is yours to prove. I understand everybody has an opinion. But to call people "LIARS" with absolutely nothing to back up that? Where did this "oath" thing come up? Have no clue what you are talking about? And where do you come from to talk about Head-fiers so reckless? Have you every met SACHU? or Me for that matter? He is not the person you describe. Oh Yeah, I met him at the last meet. Go to one you just might learn something.


----------



## haloxt

I was being sarcastic.


----------



## Currawong

I find it funny that, again and again I've suggested a possible, valid reason for different power cables causing audible differences, yet nobody has taken any interest in looking into the possibilities of what I suggest. If anything, this thread, as well as many others, has been trashed by people with religious beliefs about what is true and what is not.


----------



## haloxt

People who believe in cables have almost all left these threads because they're tired of the broken records called anticablers 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





. So you're right, no one here is interested in testing anything, just proclaiming "truths".


----------



## fhuang

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I was being sarcastic._

 


 for calling people liar? ha ha there you're doing a good job.



  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Oh yes, I saw JaZZ and fzman and big poppa all say under oath that cables were proven to be audibly different in DBT. They are lying liars and should back up their claims!!11!. I even saw fhuang and Sachu preaching to elementary school kids that cables make a difference and that sticking their fingers in the electrical outlet cures cancer, poisoning the collective minds of our youth. We must inoculate them with skepsis or risk certain dark ages in the next few years. Skepticists, unite!_

 



 i've never told anyone here at head-fi for which cable you should get or advise anyone to do a cable upgrade. 



 i hope the mod(s) or admin here can close this thread as this thread really ain't nowhere. or more, close this cable section/forum as there was nothing but trouble here when talk about cables.


----------



## haloxt

Dude I was joking okay? Joke=lie for fun.


----------



## BIG POPPA

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Dude I was joking okay? Joke=lie for fun._

 

Lying does not help your credibility on your opinions. It is not the best way to address a point. You know people from all over the world read these posts and may not understand the sarcasm in English? And to some English is a second language or third. Please be mindful of that.


----------



## haloxt

Considering how silly cable discussions are on head-fi, it's the only proper way to address this issue. Let me explain very clearly to people who don't understand. A few anticablers on this thread keep demanding DBT proof when the rest of us just don't care to. We're talking on two different levels, no common ground. My jokes are me pretending to be an anticabler and showing what conclusions their logic lead to. My jokes are not for making you angry, so stop being offended.


----------



## JaZZ

Even though English isn't my native language, I have understood _haloxt_'s sarcasm. Nothing to worry about.
.


----------



## CrackBerry9000

I would think the answer would be different from person to person.


----------



## BIG POPPA

Never said I was "angry" or "offended". It is OK if there are 2 sides to an opinion. That's how we learn more on the thread. Who cares that that there is no common ground when it comes to cables? You just one day read a post and say "AH-HAAAA I get it" no matter what side of the coin it is on. I like to use cables, SO WHAT. There is another Head-Fier who doesn't use aftermarket cables and is happy. Both sides coexist equally and I appreciate that. Keeps this forum interesting.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JaZZ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_In this case *I would definitely go with my ears*. What more do you want from a component than the sonic trait you like! Does it really matter that «science speaks against it»? Moreover, «with full knowledge that the DACs sounded exactly the same» ... «I knew this wasn't possible» are statements I would never make myself in the context of audio.
._

 

But ears don't always tell the truth, Jazz.

 What I was alluding to in my post was a form of "imprinting" that occurs when you audition a new piece of equipment or a cable. Once the impression gets "burned in" (to your brain), all the listening in the world doesn't seem to be able to change it, so in my case the old cable always sounded better and each DAC retained the original sound signatures I found not to exist. 

 This has been brought up before, but there is also sufficient anecdotal evidence to suggest that you can adjust and alter a perception over time as your brain does with your nose. Over time, your brain has learned to delete this non-essential information from view. The same thing happens with things you hear. Bothersome and non-essential "things" become attenuated to the point where you're not aware of them any more. This might be one of the reasons why things usually sound better over time.

 USG


----------



## CrackBerry9000

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *upstateguy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_But ears don't always tell the truth, Jazz.

 What I was alluding to in my post was a form of "imprinting" that occurs when you audition a new piece of equipment or a cable. Once the impression gets "burned in" (to your brain), all the listening in the world doesn't seem to be able to change it, so in my case the old cable always sounded better and each DAC retained the original sound signatures I found not to exist. 

 This has been brought up before, but there is also sufficient anecdotal evidence to suggest that you can adjust and alter a perception over time as your brain does with your nose. Over time, your brain has learned to delete this non-essential information from view. The same thing happens with things you hear. Bothersome and non-essential "things" become attenuated to the point where you're not aware of them any more. This might be one of the reasons why things usually sound better over time.

 USG_

 

So you enjoy watching measurements more than listening to music. Its ok to be different.


----------



## Drag0n

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *BIG POPPA* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What am I going to do just look at the gear? Heck no, I'm listening to it right now. Like I do almost every night.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			






_

 

I could just sit and look at a WA2 glowing, and a nice cup of coffee.


----------



## theryaner

wow. I left this thread to die but it really sparked an interesting conversation and I appreciate all of your comments. I got my little dot i+ a week or 2 ago along w/ an upgraded op-amp and tubes and I'm digging it so far. Many of you have mentioned that the power cord does indeed make a difference, and many of you are saying that I should be saving up for a better amp. Well truth is, I won't be upgrading my amp for a while (a long time) because I simply don't have enough money, lol. An upgraded power cord would be nice though, because I can use it with future amps and I really do believe I can get more out of the little dot i+. If any of you guys have power cord recommendations, throw them out there.

 BTW I'm using the analog interconnect from signal cable and it is VERY nice.

 EDIT: Just read all the comments. Geez, now i know why their are so many pages...


----------



## SP Wild

DIY Furutech.


----------



## stang

Without going DIY, a typical 1M power cord is going to set you back quite a bit more than your Little Dot I+ itself 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I would check out Audiogon though, there are always some nice ones on there for a good price.


----------



## SP Wild

Yeah used - I found any upgrade cable to be better than the stock one. Like you said with IC and power cables you buy them once and they're yours forever linking your system together as you upgrade. I spent a crap load on cables and I am done forever. At one stage the new IC I bought had a RRP equaling my then Dac and amp combined. But does an expensive wine really taste better than the cheap one - perhaps not - doesn't stop me from ordering the dearer one - makes my date think I actually have money when in fact after those cables I did not!


----------



## throzen0303

Think about what type of cable is behind the wall you are plugging into......


----------



## MrProggie

*6moons think it does:  Politically correct power cords*
   
*I am not so sure.*


----------



## DemonicLemming

mrproggie said:


> *6moons think it does:  Politically correct power cords*
> 
> *I am not so sure.*




Except, in typical 6moons fashion, they never actually say anything in that little diatribe. What's the actual connection between _"placing the same power cord where it counts—at the last 6 feet—one will hear the difference it makes because of the effect it has on the high-frequency noise which was induced into the very end of the line before it had any distance to travel to get attenuated"_ and how that impacts, at all, the music being played? What high-frequency noise is injected in the "last 6 feet" of power cable between the wall outlet and the amplifier, DAC, or whatever is using that power cord? How does that affect the audio signal? What about the effects of the transformers, capacitors, and circuitry in the gear? We're not injecting AC mains into our headphones. What about the RF noise that can enter the amplifier or DAC case through cooling slots? 

Power cable proponents seem to be utterly incapable of making the real-world connection between all the bogeymen their vaunted cables "solve", and how that actually affects *anything* on the music side. Does capacitance make a difference? Then prove it! If power cable capacitance affects the end audio signal somehow, then it should be measurable and repeatable; likewise for inductance and the other lab-measurable characteristics of power cables.

Ugh. I'm going to stop before I get myself in trouble, but it's exactly that sort of self-righteous, "How dare the common peons question what I think is right!" response to valid questions that annoys me, and even moreso when the answer given to those questions is a bunch of drivel that takes a long time to say, but never gets around to being worth anything.


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## dvw

Actually, according to that article a cheap aluminum power cable will sound better than the expensive exotic silver plated power cable because it attenuate the high frequency better. Hmmm........


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## Currawong

DemonicLemming: Noise already present in the line. However, a noise filtering capacitor is only a few cents and would possibly fit inside the larger plugs available.


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## dvw

Quote: 





currawong said:


> DemonicLemming: Noise already present in the line. However, a noise filtering capacitor is only a few cents and would possibly fit inside the larger plugs available.


 


  Not according to the 6 Moon Article. Its theory behind the last 6 feet of cable has the highest impact on the noise is because the noise in the line has already been "filtered/attenuated" by the miles of cheap cable. The actual noise is injected at the last 6 feet of interconnect. Therefore the logic is the last 6 feet of power cable is most critical and makes the most difference..


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## DemonicLemming

Right but unless you have DC riding on the AC, doesn't the transformer (assuming the equipment has a good transformer) basically eliminate the AC noise?  Even if it doesn't, aren't inductors common in most gear to remove high-frequency noise that might be riding on the AC?
   
  I just don't see anywhere in the article where they make the connection between "noise attenuation" or the lack thereof and how it audibly affects music, and how an expensive power cable without filter caps attenuates noise better than a standard IEC power cable.
  
  Quote: 





currawong said:


> DemonicLemming: Noise already present in the line. However, a noise filtering capacitor is only a few cents and would possibly fit inside the larger plugs available.


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## fatcat28037

I just read the 6Moons blurb about power cables. I can't recall ever having that much smoke blown up a certain body orifice at any other time.
  Those guys are shameless.


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## 12345142

Yeah, I didn't believe that BS for a second...not to mention the way he answers the question is so snobbish: apparently you'll never understand the 'audiophile culture' if you don't think power cords can change the sound.
   
  This is why people think audiophiles are snobs, just like in that XKCD comic.


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## Currawong

I'm not going to read that 6moons article, though I probably could do with a laugh.


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## Uncle Erik

6moons is like reading your daily horoscope.

What about the power transformer and electrolytic caps in the power supply? Those are also called _filter_ caps for a good reason.


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## upstateguy

Quote: 





uncle erik said:


> 6moons is like reading your daily horoscope.


 

 Come on now, 6moons has no reason to fabricate.
   
  USG


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## El_Doug

6moons has every reason to fabricate, just like every other hi-fi magazine!  spectacular claims + ad revenues are the name of the game, not legitimate reviews
  
  Quote: 





upstateguy said:


> Come on now, 6moons has no reason to fabricate.
> 
> USG


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## fatcat28037

Quote: 





el_doug said:


> 6moons has every reason to fabricate, just like every other hi-fi magazine!  spectacular claims + ad revenues are the name of the game, not legitimate reviews


 


 He was being facetious.


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## El_Doug

so hard to tell without the appropriate emoticon
  
  Quote: 





fatcat28037 said:


> He was being facetious.


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