# Opinions on the pros and cons of subwoofers...



## Asterix

What are some of the pros and cons of using a sub?


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## Glod

Well, actually only pros, if you ask me. Provides a much needed fundament to the soundstage and adds a lot of ambience and "presence", unless you already have a duo of B&W 801's. You really need one (or actually perhaps two) with very good adjusting possibilities though. I have heard some pretty bad boomers, mainly meant for the home-cinema market. They give you such a punch you almost get nauseous, but with such poor timing and no subtlety and micro dynamics they miss the whole idea behind. 

 Here in Europe Rel is highly valued.

http://www.rel.net/


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## PsychoZX

When set up properly there are no cons IMO other than another speaker taking up space (some might consider this a con some might not). For help on subwoofer placement and setup check out these links.

http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/setup/index.php
http://www.goodsound.com/howto/2002_06_15.htm


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## clarke68

Subwoofers are great fun for all the reasons mentioned above, but don't be fooled by the "bass in omni-directional, put it anywhere you want" crowd...sub placement is critical. They can reveal quite clearly all the weaknesses (nodes and anti-nodes) of your listening room (a good set of full-range speakers may do that as well, I don't know, I've never owned a pair).

 Here's my favorite subwoofer set-up article, just to add to the others.

 The biggest con is that the effect of a properly setup audiophile subwoofer is really quite subtle. They're meant to add life to the room, but not call attention to themselves. Of course, once you've dropped several hundred (or several thousand) dollars on a sub, you'll want to call a little attention to it and turn it up, and that sure is fun on certain recordings! But on others, I _occasionally_ prefer the sound of mini-monitors alone.

 Sometimes I dial the sub down to "proper audiophile levels" and A/B between having it off and having it on and I think to myself, "is that effect really worth the money and space this thing is taking in my room?"


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## TommyTheCat

Well, subwoofer freq's (not above 60hz or so) are quite omni-directional and you can put them anywhere you want because you cant localize them. The whole (anti)nodes thing is about overall power/freq response of the sub, ie dips and humps.

 And if your monitors play low enough like clarke's, you only really need it for "reproduction" type sound levels, aka loud.

 But they are essential to a home theater system, and quite helpful for a two-way stereo system. (except the exodus kits, i hope 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 )


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## rickcr42

Pro Sub Woofer :

 1-Essential for Home Theater
 2-Can add the last octave missing from most systems
 3-eases the load on the main power amp allowing SET amps to be used for the main leaft and right speakers and a high power solid state dedicated sub amp for bass only
 4-allow the use of deadly accurate but bass shy speakers as your main left and right channels

 Con :

 1-A "true" subwoofer produces low bass in the 25 or 30 to 75 or so Hz range and most rooms just will not support this without major headaches in the set up.even then it may not be possible
 2-Most subs are no more than boom and thud boxes better labeled "Bass Bins" than "sub" woofers which they are not having no shot at any real notes below 40 hz
 3-low powerful bass means a big box or a huge amp or both.Not cheap
 4-the average user of a subwoofer has absolutely no clue how to properly set one up
 5-some loudspeakers have special requirements in the Main/subwoofer matchup and unless carefully chosen to integrate well (and not the "what is the best subwoofer" type either) with the mains will draw attention as a distinct sound source,one not blending at all in the crossover region with the overall system.Horn speakers and Film speakers (stats) are in this category.
 6-very few recording (video and audio0 have anything below 40 hz.it may say otherwise but really nothing there worth the expense of a real sub system
 7-everything in the room if not anchored down will rattle and or fall off shelves


 Get it right and in a room that can support the low bass notes and a subwoofer is an asset that adds the last bit of foundation to the music.Go at it with half measures and with no clue and your system will sound worse for having the sub.
 This is for a REAL "Sub" woofer and not the special effects boxes being sold as such with are no more than boom boxes to add excitement as said above. 

 I have always had one in system until I moved to my present digs where so far every attempt to blend in a sub has failed miserably and I do not yet have an answer.......but I will...............


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## clarke68

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rickcr42* 
_ too many good points to quote_

 

Absolutely spot on...that's some of the best subwoofer advice _ever_!


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## bln

Don't blow your ears out.


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## Aman

You might just want to get speakers that produce good enough bass that you won't need one.

 I have mini-floorstanding speakers that would go for no more than 100 bucks for the pair now used (Ohm Model B speakers from '76) and they even produce fantastic bass.

 Many people THINK they need the extra bass, but you really don't. IMO, bass should be kept to a pretty average rating, otherwise you lose clarity.


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## rickcr42

Quote:


 You might just want to get speakers that produce good enough bass that you won't need one. 
 

for the average human with a full range floor stander that gets it right to say 40-45 hz will have all the bass they need for music and the set-up won't be a bear.Eevn a mid sized cabinet with an 8 inch woofer if a good design will be 96% of all you will ever need for music'

 for movies and the special effects that make the experience in the home beter even than the theater (too damn loud and croaky usually) one of those bottom firing bass "cubes" with a built in amp close to the listening position will be fine.
 By placing it close to your position you get it out into the room and away from room boundries and corners and by being close it will couple vibrations to your seat making it _seem _ more powerful than it truly is plusby being close it will use less power for the same apparent volume level.

 This is the trick they use to get those crappy little 6 inch multimedia woofers to fool you into thinking you have real bass at the computer.

 True bass with any real acoustic power takes either a very large driver in a very large box or a big driver in a small box but driven by gobs of amplifier power to make up for box size limitations
 A huge multidriver box (like the Infinities) or stacked boxes (think cone surface area) AND gobs of power is the ideal it would seem but that is only if the room can actually handle it (big enough to support the notes and stiff enough to not flex sympatically with the bass) 

 also something to consider is cabinet type and bass projection,where the bass notes actually start and falloff in power.
 A horn needs room,you need to be a certain distance away or the sweet spot will be behind you unless the horn is far behind the room walls and only the mouth is in the room (not always but mostly).This bass will project for a long distance but if the mains can not keep up it will sound weird
 A ported sub is good close in,the 5-15 feet range, but loses power over a long distance unless you stack cabinets.

 Subwoofers are a real nightmare better left out unless you have the means to do it right.
 Like I said earlier I am "subless" at this time because I can not get one to work both with my room and mate well with my main speakers and i have tied many but my requirements are tough.


 I may end up settling for a kinda "bass assist" box in the 40-70 hz range instead of a real sub just to add a little ooomph to my sound without driving me nuts trying to get it to fit.I can live with accurate to 40 hz with a nice easy rolloff at the bottom end (T Line ?) but not a big peak at that frequency with a rapid roloff to the two sides (bandpass box)


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## rhythmdevils

sometimes I feel like it seperates the bass from the rest of the music too much. but this may be because i havent ever heard it set up right 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I hate it when a car system has the tweeter blasting, then the mid dump dumping, and then in the way back, you get this spine bustling earthquake. All I can think of is how much the tweeter hurts my ears and how much the sub hurts my back and makes me have a heart attack and seizure and bite my tongue off and spew blood and guts everywhere


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## jpr703

With good floorstanders you shouldn't need one. Too much bass is going to muddy up your sound and take away the naturalness of the presentation.

 To me subs should only be in music systems when you're using bookshelves that just don't hit the bass notes. One might also come in useful for watching movies--especially if you can turn it off when listening to music.


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## rickcr42

Quote:


 sometimes I feel like it seperates the bass from the rest of the music too much. but this may be because i havent ever heard it set up right 
 

Exactly.
 The transition from woofer to subwoofer is a very important area that most pay very little attention to.They need to rememer there IS an overlap between the two no matter how steep the crossover and the better the match of the two drivers the closer the integration.
 This needs to be a system approach not a search for a great speaker then a search for a great sub.
 Alone each may be great on paper but in combination a total disaster .

  Quote:


 I hate it when a car system has the tweeter blasting, then the mid dump dumping, and then in the way back, you get this spine bustling earthquake. All I can think of is how much the tweeter hurts my ears and how much the sub hurts my back and makes me have a heart attack and seizure and bite my tongue off and spew blood and guts everywhere 
 

another example of mismatching by trying to get the "best" at each position even though in combination these speakers have no business being in the same car together.

  Quote:


 With good floorstanders you shouldn't need one. Too much bass is going to muddy up your sound and take away the naturalness of the presentation. 
 

too much bass means it is set up wrong and no more.A "full range" loudspeaker is anything but that and it should be more accurately labelled a "mostly full range" speaker.Taking the extreme low notes out of the box and with its own amplifier is an improvement but only if done right.A subwoofer does not "boom" unless it is either a special effects box and not a sub or the installer had no clue OR there is no way short of equalising/acoustic treatment to get that sub to work in the room it is in.

 I have had subs hooked up that visitors to my home would SEE they being huge refridgerator sized boxes and then be asked to turn it on even though they WERE on !!!!!!!!

 these people like most have only experience the bass box as a thunder box and had never actually heard a well integrated sub systen so because the notes were not actually heard as a separate sound they could not fathom this HUGE box not being heard.
 I would actully have to pull the cover off and let then SEE the cone excursions and the next question would always be.

 "so how come such a big woofer does not put out any bass ?"

 WANNA KILL "EM !

 again their idea of bass is not natural bass but the boom boom thud boom type and they could not wrap their brain arounfd the concept of this huge woofer not ratttling their teeth out or sounding like the systems in most cars these days .Tthe ones you hear comin down the road a mile before they get there but only the monotonic bass notes. 

 Buuuuuuuuuung,buuuuuuuuuuuung,buuuuuuuuuuuung 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I would then flip a switch and taking the sub 'out of system' and the look on that visitors face would be priceless AND expected by me.The entire foundation of the music would dissapear and make the main speakers sound very bass shy and tiiny even though they were not.The notes they were feeeling in their gut,in their chest and in thier _crotch_ (thier balls being mostly guys 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ) were no longer there.

 Deep bass is not heard as much as it is a"feeling' and if you hear it as a distinct sound something is just not right.

 I have main speakers right now that I love from 50-15 khz which is where most music actually lives and the sheer speed and articualtion is one that I find sounds like the live event but I still need that elusive 35-50 hz and even though less than a full octave a sound it is the absolutely hardest band for me to get right and say "I am done".The upper high freqs I took care of with a padded down "supertweeter" because that also should not draw attention to iself but meld with the whole as a helper and not the center of attention.


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## clarke68

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rickcr42* 
_I have main speakers right now that I love from 50-15 khz which is where most music actually lives and the sheer speed and articualtion is one that I find sounds like the live event..._

 

Wow. Not to derail the thread, but what speakers do you have?


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## rsaavedra

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rickcr42* 
_for the average human with a full range floor stander that gets it right to say 40-45 hz will have all the bass they need for music and the set-up won't be a bear._

 

Well two things.

 1) I would say that if you get down to 30 Hz then you are ok (only half the lowest octave missing). Those low notes are really the beginning of the "steps of a giant" effect and impact (read SLAM) of low notes in music. Just reaching down to 40 is ok too, but you are missing the whole lowest octave.

 2) Even reaching down to just 40Hz you have lots of placement issues. Bass cancellations and room nodes affect frequencies much higher than that (e.g. even above 120Hz).

 Another two, the only cons of subwoofers are:
 1) The *difficulty of proper placement* to avoid room interaction issues and bass cancellation / boominess).

 2) The *difficulty of proper integration with the mains* (phase coherency with the mains, smooth freq. response transition at the crossover freqs). That's basically it.

 The pros are just better fuller sound.


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## rickcr42

DAMMIT !!!!

 This happens to me way too often lately and only here.

 I am in the middle of a long post and my browser takes me somewhere else on its own and when I hit "back' my long post is gone and I am in _no mood _ to repost being pissed off !!!

 when I calm down and feel like re-answering the question in the detail it requires I will be back to this thread 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I need to find out if this is a browser disfunction,settings or some combination that does not like Head-Fi because this happens no where else and I need to fix it beofre I gun my computer right out the damn window.


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## AlanY

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rickcr42* 
_This happens to me way too often lately and only here.

 I am in the middle of a long post and my browser takes me somewhere else on its own and when I hit "back' my long post is gone and I am in no mood  to repost being pissed off !!!_

 

Rick, you should really give Firefox a try (instead of Internet Explorer). Before I switched to Firefox, the exact same thing used to happen to me all the time on various forums, and it drove me nuts too. When you hit "back" in Firefox, it remembers whatever you had typed, so you'll never lose anything like this again.

http://www.getfirefox.com


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## rickcr42

Quote:


 Rick, you should really give Firefox a try (instead of Internet Explorer). Before I switched to Firefox, the exact same thing used to happen to me all the time on various forums, and it drove me nuts too. When you hit "back" in Firefox, it remembers whatever you had typed, so you'll never lose anything like this again. 
 

Thanks for the tip.I have been avoiding going away from IE because I have this puppy so streamlined and customized that it makes my international electronics journeys a breeze (popup blockers,integrated virus and trojan scans,language tools,selective scripts and cookies,slimmed down adobe reader,etc) but since that post above I have lost three more very extensive answers to questions and it really is pissing me off.I don't repeat myself in life and i will be damned if I will try and repost an answer from memory so I guess I am due for a change and the long process of customising another browser to my needs.

 dammit


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## Aman

Being an open source developer, PLEASE use firefox, for the love of God!!


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## rickcr42

Quote:


 1) I would say that if you get down to 30 Hz then you are ok (only half the lowest octave missing). Those low notes are really the beginning of the "steps of a giant" effect and impact (read SLAM) of low notes in music. Just reaching down to 40 is ok too, but you are missing the whole lowest octave. 
 

I don't agree at all.Flat to 35 or 40 hz with a gradual rolloff gives you ALL the missing notes.flat to 20 hz is not workable in just about any real world system no matter what the ad copy says.

 take woofer with an F3 of of 40hz and unless it is a bandpass box or ported enclosure where the woofer decouple and rools off rapidly belown the F3 and you have what ?
 Full response down to the nether regions.An F6 of 20 hz is not workable but more bass than most have ever heard in their entire life.

 gradual rolloff though means either sealed or open baffle or transmission line,all big if you use acoustic power.the sealed can be smaller if you use amp power and EQ.

 Bandpass and ported are MOSTLY not an option because ethe banpass is exactly what it says and is tuned to a BAND with a rapid falloff to the two sides of the band.
 Ported if using a large cone and at too high an upper crossover will be very audible in the middle freqs and at the bottom the cone will decouple below port frequency making a filter essential for safety and to prevent cone flap.

 My former box sub was a 15 inch ported B6/assisted alignement that used a bump of +6db (electronic EQ) at just above the port frequency but a rapid rolloff below 15hz (-18dB/octave) to avoid the woofer flapping that comes with trying to push a ported system below the port frequency.It is also an essential to have a lower end cutoff if you intend to have a turntable in your system.
 At the top it cut off at -12dB/Octave at 60 hz taking it totally out of the upper bass register and thus dead silent except for what it was meant to do.

 Tuning to 35 hz is way more than sufficient in even the most exotic of systems and is more than good enough.Listen to the Bruce Edgar Seismic Sub and tell me 35 hz is not low enough !
 I am actually considering building a similiar subwoofer even though it will be the dominant feature in the room where it resides and my wife may send both me and the sub packing 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





  Quote:


 2) Even reaching down to just 40Hz you have lots of placement issues. Bass cancellations and room nodes affect frequencies much higher than that (e.g. even above 120Hz). 
 

The issues would be more of the cancellation and reinforcement type requiring both electronic EQ and acoustic treatment to be workable.that is for all true sub systems and room interfacing.
 I am not sure what you mean with the mention of 120 hz ?
 anyone operating a sub up there has no idea what a sub is and is making a huge mistake because it WILL become the dominant sound in your system by coloring everything with its own "tone'.

  Quote:


 ) The difficulty of proper placement to avoid room interaction issues and bass cancellation / boominess). 
 

that was covered man 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


 2) The difficulty of proper integration with the mains (phase coherency with the mains, smooth freq. response transition at the crossover freqs). That's basically it. 
 

ditto 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


 The pros are just better fuller sound. 
 

Wrong !

 The "sound" should NOT be fuller.Flipping the sub on and off should change nothing tonally or you are not set up correctly.You are confusing a "bass box" with a "subwoofer" as most do.
 It is and should be as the name suggests,only the bottom extremes should be reproduced and NOT overlap with you woofer to any real degree of the entire system will be dominated by the "sub" sound.

 A really simple test of a sub is to tune to an FM station that has a male announcer and while flipping back and forth bween sub/no sub adjust until the voice remains totally unchanged.If the voice is "fuller" it is not right.
 Once this is accomplished you can play some music and by flipping the sub on and off again and if it is properly set up AND if there is musical content below 40hz (rare) you will notice a solidity is added to the music,something felt but not heard as an actual "sound".
 Kinda like having a dump truck rumble past your house fully loaded.You don't hear it as much as you do feel it until it is right on you.

 for a damn scary experience play some organ music recorded in a cathedral or some Rick Wakeman keyboards witha "true" subwoofer having "only" a 40 Hz F3.


 you better warn the neighbors and clear the shelves plus remove all the pictures from the walls or you are just looking for trouble.Ever see a flower pot dance off a table all by itself ?


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## Glod

Out of my own experience, I think some of the above posts are overly negative and are generalizing a lot about the subject. 

 To me the integration with the main speakers is very important, and it is certainly possible. It also must be invisible and not give a hint of its position. This is, however, a bit of a challenge I admit, but far from impossible: You need a sub with a very good cross-over, perhaps a 180° phase shift function good instructions and a lot of time 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I don't use it to get a stomach hit every time a bass drum is beaten in the music I listen to, rather the contrary. I need it for those very low tones, say bellow 40Hz in order to facilitate a believable soundstage. And yes these tones are detectable. It is quite obvious if you turn the sub off. You don't really _hear_ them, but rather feel them as an ambient factor. If you're too lazy to read my profile; I listen mostly to classical and I could not do with out my REL Strata mkIII.


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## rickcr42

BTW-as an addition :

 The highest I ever consider going with a sub is 60-70 hz and no more so that means the use of a full range system that has good response down to 60 hz at least to be essential.
 Used with a system having bass limitations already the only "workaround" I have ever found personally was dual subs stacked with the actual speaker on top of each.In one case the main speaker box was too big to stack normally even though the bass was lacking so I "flipped" it making the tweeter at the bottom and at ear level when stacked.Having a tweeter firing over my head when seated is not the way to good sound so sometimes you need to think out of the box and against norms to make your own situation workable.

 Dual subs bring another set of problems but it has been my experience that an equalizer with many bands in the bass frequencies and independant L/R adjustments will solve most if not all of the roo/speaker matching problems.

 since I am not running "minis" i can choose a single location for the sub and even if for some reason i end up with multiple subs to fix my problems these can be stacked in the same position rather than making each a problem needing to be solved individually.

 Subs need their own EQ,power amp and even phasing control if you really want to do it right.These have ZERO effect on the mains simple because all the added electronics are only in the subwoofer feed at the output of the crossover (unless passive of course) and not in system for the main speakers.


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## rickcr42

Quote:


 Out of my own experience, I think some of the above posts are overly negative and are generalizing a lot about the subject. 
 

It was a "general" question and not individual product or system or even room specific.
 I think my points though a bit negative are all valid in the context of the question.


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## rsaavedra

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rickcr42* 
_I don't agree at all.Flat to 35 or 40 hz with a gradual rolloff gives you ALL the missing notes.flat to 20 hz is not workable in just about any real world system no matter what the ad copy says._

 

Rick note that I didn't write 20 but 30Hz. Also I really didn't say "flat to 30". 

 Here's why I wrote it should better play down to 30. The following is the freq. response I carefully measured a while ago out of my entry level speaker rig (Paradigm Titans+ PDR-12 subwoofer combo):




http://photo.head-fi.org/showphoto.p...sort=1&cat=500

 This was measured at my listening position, using Stereophile Test CD 2, a Radio Shack SPL meter, and taking into account Rives Audio correction factors for that meter. I can claim my system could play down to 30Hz (at -5dB over there though). It played 40 Hz at approximately +2 dBs. If the system is claimed to play "flat down to 40", it usually means 40 is already in the -K dbs region, so 30Hz would be way too low.

 The perceivable difference between having at the sweet spot let's say a rolling off bass of -5db already at 40Hz, vs having that -5db at 30Hz is hugely noticeable. That's all I meant. Of course not noticeable in most of the music, but whenever those low freqs are hit, the difference shows. The SLAM factor in one vs. the other is very noticeable.

  Quote:


 that was covered man 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 

Sorry I replied without having read all the posts.

  Quote:


 The "sound" should NOT be fuller.Flipping the sub on and off should change nothing tonally or you are not set up correctly.You are confusing a "bass box" with a "subwoofer" as most do. 
 

No I'm not confusing that. I just think we had a different meaning for the word "fuller" (remember I'm not a native English speaker 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)


 PS. Off thread, but to explain that apparent rolledoff treble in my measurements on the Titans: for one thing, there's off-axis caused rolloff, and also, there is meter inaccuracy in higher freqs. The Titans are spec'ed to be +/- 2 from 60Hz up to 20KHz. The Paradigm Atoms (I also own them) have extremely similar sounding treble as the Titans, actually the response I measure from the Atoms is basically the same as from the Titans in everything except bass. And here's a pro measurement of the Atoms. So basically, ignore the treble region in my chart.


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## rickcr42

Some background.I have had a serious amount of loudspeakers in my home over the years,many cosidered some of the best at the time (waaaaay before these days and the outrageous prices they are getting for S.O.T.A) and yet I always changed systems.Mostly high efficiency like the old consumer grade JBLs,Altecs,EVs but I even went away for a time from that to get another "flavor" so I tried the DCM Time Windows,a pair of KEFs and finally one that "stuck" for a while the Dahlquist DQ-10.
 This beast was a real bear to drive and was not perfect but still I enjoyed the uncanny way this speaker opened up the sound in my room and added a sense of real space...and they NEEDED a sub in order to sound "finished".
 Back then there were only a couple of actual subwoofers being made.One by Dahlquist and meant to match up with the DQ-10,Infinity had one but you had to buy the entire Servo-Static system to get the sub and the Janus W-1 which I eventually settled on as a good match.There were others and most while advertised were really not available locally so listening to them was out and I chose from my "subwoofer" pool of availables.
 Sounded good but I could never get the "life" out of this system so it was back to dynamic speakers and I sold the Dahlquist/Janus and purchased a Fourier-1.Not bad,had a lot of what I liked in the DQ-10 but still something was missing and I did not know then what.

 The "what" was the energy and life that I hear live.Just like with comparing sennheiser headphones to grado headphones one makes music but the other for me adds the spark I hear with live music,the dynamics and life,the moment to moment immediacy I thrive on so I needed something

 A-very efficient and easy to drive
 B-fast ! I wanted speed baby
 C-tight.no bloat or overhang but in and out

 And so I went through this and that within what I could afford and even went the DIY route for a while (good but not real good) and continued the search.

 Many good sounding speakers did not get it for me personally becasue while they made beautiful music the immediacy was not there and I would find myself pushing the volume up just to add some excitement,some life to the sound.

 My wife,always the practical one and smarter than me never really ever heard a difference and thought me nuts and she was closer to the truth than me.
 Most all loudspeakers are just a clone of each other that may sound different in some areas but mostly sound the same in dierect comparison.
 While I was comparing the details she was listening to the overall sound and she could not understand what the big deal was until she had an "experience".

 I took her to a High End Audio show and as usual she was _very_ unimpressed by all the offering."yeah nice but....." except for two things.

 the headroom setup she thought a blast and we kept coming back to it and the Atma-sphere/classic audio reproductions room where they were playing some of the most glorious and dynamic jazz you ever want to hear.

 "honey,you can buy that ! that I like !"

 Me "don't think so babe"

 her "why not"

 me "because no way I can afford that"

 Her "how much could it possibly be"

 when I told her she grabbed me and we left that room not to return again 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 but she had a point about the sound and also what I was looking for without knowing what "it' was.The _it_ was back to the old style efficient and dynamic with a tube amp for the muscle,a match meant to be.Not the old overly smooth though dynamic sound of the 70's JBLs and Altecs but similiar to the feel.

 On a whim I grabbed some Klipsch Heresy's thinking if I like the Klipsch "house sound" i could always ramp up to the next or two up speakers in the line.Took them home,dragged out an old Dyna ST-70 I had (you don't want to use hard SS with these puppies or you will run away screaming) floating around in the closet (bone stock) and plugged in.

 Right away my wife took notice and said they were keepers and I had to agree totally.I never have had the urge to go up the line because I am satisfied with what I have and my space is limited so I instead began the "tweak" stage and put them on stands,added a super tweeter (very soft,padded down and only from 15 khz up) and sub (then,subless now) and considered them more as "mid-hi" speakers instead of full range speakers but these are not your gandmas minimonitor mid-high boxes !

 these babies crank and drum notes have the attack and speed that reminds me of the real thing,just bass shy.
 No matter what I throw at them out comes music and even at low volume there is still "life" because of the 96db/1W spl sensitivity.
 Cruising along at average volume can be startling when a peak music event happens and it is IMMEDIATE and then goes away never to be heard again.Fast in,fast out.
 So my search for a speaker that suits me and impresses my wife is over and all that is left is to get the surrounding cast members up to speed and so far any sub I tried to blend in has had a "disconnect' that bothers the crap out of me so much I would rather go without even though the speakers are only good to around 50 hz.

 better to have 50hz-15khz that sounds good than 20hz-20khz that is good on paper.

 Just me and what I like.Klipsch loudspeakers and grado cans,both driven by tubes or mosfets



 BTW-my wife wanted these :

http://www.atma-sphere.com/products/m60.html

http://www.classicaudiorepro.com/page5.html

 at least she has good taste.Expensive taste but...........


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## rickcr42

Quote:


 The perceivable difference between measuring let's say -5db at 40Hz vs measuring -5db at 30Hz at the sweet spot is hugely noticeable. That's all I meant. Of course not in most of music, but whenever those low freqs are hit in the music, the difference shows. The SLAM factor in one vs. the other is very noticeable. 
 

Yes,considering 3dB is a doubling of volume that is reasonable.but all things come into play including room gain,where you sit,if there is just the one sweet or do others get to listen too and have the same experience.
 i am not one to slam the use of a subwoofer just what most consider a subwoofer to be and wrongly.
 better to have a good 60 hz even than a boomy 25 hz.

 i am shooting for a reasonable 35hz or so for my situation-small room and cube shaped nightmare mated to fast open sounding speakers.Any bass overhang will be death for my system and the room size/shape is no easy task so i am also looking at building a T-Line or push pull open baffle sub.

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 No I'm not confusing that. I just think we had a different meaning for the word "fuller" (remember I'm not a native English speaker ) 
 

Sorry didn't realise.I always assume english as first language because it is an english language board and even when country of origin is other than an english speaking country consider it just an expatriot posting.

 Technical descriptions must be a real pain to get across in other than your native tongue.Something i would not know being barely able to speak my own native tongue.


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## rsaavedra

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rickcr42* 
_Yes,considering 3dB is a doubling of volume that is reasonable.but all things come into play including room gain,where you sit,if there is just the one sweet or do others get to listen too and have the same experience._

 

Ah interesting point, other people sitting just a couple of feet to the sides of the sweet spot quickly start to get different bass response. Two feet to the right and it starts to get boomy and too powerful. Two feet to the left and start being weak, then soon afterwards too powerful again, after passing a room node and getting closer to a wall and the sub itself. This is not just perceived but perfectly measurable. I spent literally dozens of hours just looking for optimal placement of my sub in my living room, and measuring the corresponding response at the sweet spot + on the edges of the sofa in front of the mains.

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 better to have a good 60 hz even than a boomy 25 hz. 
 

Agree, overpowering bass in general is so common and always bothersome.

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 small room and cube shaped nightmare 
 

Sounds like nightmarish indeed. I think I was somewhat lucky with the living room in the apartment I was living at (see this thread for some comments I made on that quite a while ago).


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 Technical descriptions must be a real pain to get across in other than your native tongue.Something i would not know being barely able to speak my own native tongue. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 

If fact it's the opposite, truly technical reading/writing is the easiest for me regardless of technical subject. Subjective descriptions, however, or qualitative descriptions of sound for instance, is another matter, those are really non technical, and there is hardly universal agreement on the intended meanings of most adjectives in the vocabulary that can be used to describe different characteristics of sound.


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## rhythmdevils

sorry for the newbie question here, but what is a 180 degree phase shift?

 my car sub, infinity basslink (i know, not great by any means, but for the price used, it is worth it) has one and I can hear a differennce, but can't figure out what it's doing. 

 Thanks...


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## rickcr42

Quote:


 sorry for the newbie question here, but what is a 180 degree phase shift? 
 

A full phase reversal or opposite polarity.

  Quote:


 If fact it's the opposite, truly technical reading/writing is the easiest for me regardless of technical subject. Subjective descriptions, however, or qualitative descriptions of sound for instance, is another matter, those are really non technical, and there is hardly universal agreement on the intended meanings of most adjectives in the vocabulary that can be used to describe different characteristics of sound. 
 

That is actually what I meant to say but I screwed up between my brain and the keyboard and it came out 180 degrees from what I meant to say (opposite 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 )


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## rsaavedra

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rickcr42* 
_I am not sure what you mean with the mention of 120 hz ?
 anyone operating a sub up there has no idea what a sub is and is making a huge mistake because it WILL become the dominant sound in your system by coloring everything with its own "tone'._

 

Ah forgot to reply to that part. The irregularities in the response caused by speaker-room interactions can affect low frequencies even higher than 120Hz+. Because of that, bass problems with room interactions happen even if you don't have a sub, so to achieve good bass response even from regular bookshelf speakers in a given room can be non-trivial. That's what my note on 120Hz intended to say. Didn't really mean to suggest to have the sub take care of such freqs.


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## rickcr42

Quote:


 Didn't really meant to suggest to have the sub cover those freqs. 
 

you had me scared for a minute 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I have heard subs that work up there but they were dual subs stacked with the mid-high cabinet making it a full range system but in two boxes.
 I realise there is a trend since the advent of multimedia/computer speakers and home theater systems to use mini-monitors and a common sub (sub/sat systems)with a high crossover but no way are these systems even close to full range.

 with an xo that high you can and will hear the disconnect between the upper mid drivers (the satellit speaker "woofer") and the bass driver (not a sub, it is only a separated bass cabinet to save space).
 This _can_ work in the nearfield at a computer desk but no way it works in an average room and it is no more than a big con job by the marketing department and many fall for it.
 the "Surrounf sound in a box" systems are no better than glorified boom boxes and most would be better off walking away.More is not always better and quantity can not make up for quality.

 I am considering making one of these even though it really will not fit just to fool around with until the wife throws me and it out the door :

http://www.volvotreter.de/downloads/...th-Horn-01.jpg

 It is page one of the plans for the Bruce edgar Monolith horn from here ;

http://www.volvotreter.de/dl-section.htm

 build looks to be pretty basic and materials not off the hook.I also like the built in false "floor" for the woofer.Looking at newer versions and the Moth version linked below there is a lot of leeway for the cosmetics to be as simple as a painted box or even an exotic veneer so decor matching is no prob except for the size and imagination lapses. 

 Here is a version by Moth ;






 and the modern incarnation by the master himself ;






 Not little but I need something that not only plays deep but is efficient and has headroom or the sub will run out of steam before my mains.I think this puppy could keep up with anything I could throw at it and then some


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