# My cat tore up my Virtual Dynamics Power 3...



## Akathisia

My cat decided that the techflex covering of my free Power 3 would make a nice scratching post, so I decided to remove all the techflex and just leave the bare tubing below.

 Well I removed the techflex and was a bit disappointed at the build quality, so I Googled a few things.

 I found out it's made from :

 1. 1 Schurter 10 amp IEC - $5
 2. 1 Hubbell 15a 3 prong plug - $5
 3. 6 feet of Black, Green and White 14g THHN 600v Building Wire - ~$0.30 /foot = $1.80
 4. 6 feet of clear braided garden hose - ~$0.50/foot = $3
 5. ~1 pound of ferrous metal powder - can't find a price, I'm sure it's dirt cheap
 6. a stick of hot glue - the Hubbell connector had a hole drilled in it and was filled with hot glue, the female end was just glued to the hose.
 7. Approx. 6 inches of electrical tape
 8. Large size heatshrink
 9. Techflex

 (These are first hit prices from my Google results. I'm sure if you had a business license and bought in bulk, these prices would swandive)



 I paid Acoustic Chef $20 for shipping on my 'free' Power 3. I now feel like I paid for VD to build me a power 3.Thanks Acoustic Chef, at least I received an education on marketing for the $20.

 I have more confidence in the power cord that came with my pc over this thing, heaven forbid it had a split in the pvc covering of one of the wires, I'm sure an electrical arc through that metal powder would be harmless...

*Edit:* Sorry for the poor lighting in these pics, I've never claimed photography as a hobby:

 First here's my cat Virgil getting ready to pounce on something (sorry, found this on my girlfriends camera) :







 Here's all the pieces:






 The Hubbel connector : 









 The Schurter connector: 









 Garden Hose:


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## gz76

Quote:


 My cat decided that the techflex covering of my free Power 3 would make a nice scratching post, so I decided to remove all the techflex and just leave the bare tubing below.

 Well I removed the techflex and was a bit disappointed at the build quality, so I Googled a few things.

 I found out it's made from :

 1. 1 Schurter 10 amp IEC - $5
 2. 1 Hubbell 15a 3 prong plug - $5
 3. 6 feet of Black, Green and White 14g THHN 600v Building Wire - ~$0.30 /foot = $1.80
 4. 6 feet of clear braided garden hose - ~$0.50/foot = $3
 5. ~1 pound of ferrous metal powder - can't find a price, I'm sure it's dirt cheap
 6. a stick of hot glue - the Hubbell connector had a hole drilled in it and was filled with hot glue, the female end was just glued to the hose.
 7. Approx. 6 inches of electrical tape
 8. Large size heatshrink
 9. Techflex

 (These are first hit prices from my Google results. I'm sure if you had a business license and bought in bulk, these prices would swandive)



 I paid Acoustic Chef $20 for shipping on my 'free' Power 3. I now feel like I paid for VD to build me a power 3.Thanks Acoustic Chef, at least I received an education on marketing for the $20.

 I have more confidence in the power cord that came with my pc over this thing, heaven forbid it had a split in the pvc covering of one of the wires, I'm sure an electrical arc through that metal powder would be harmless... 
 

Interesting... can we see pics?

 Out of curiosity, what was your opinion on this cable before your cat got involved? Please provide a link if you've already posted this in another thread.

 Thanks.


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## barqy

i too would like to see some pictures


 I have one VD sent me, thought it was quite generous of him to send it.

 I would advise against taking apart a cable from ALO, you may suffer a shock attack


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## FallenAngel

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *barqy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i too would like to see some pictures


 I have one VD sent me, thought it was quite generous of him to send it.

 I would advise against taking apart a cable from ALO, you may suffer a shock attack 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Gee thanks buddy, after I read the first post, I almost spilled my drink and thanks to yours, what wasn't spilled is now up my nose!


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## Akathisia

taking pics now...


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## vcoheda

need pics.


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## troymadison

lol too funny


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## Akathisia

Pics added. I would take a pic of the metal dust, but it's spread out all over my yard, after I first cut the cable and spilled some on my hardwood floors.


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## gz76

I don't know... when you look at the material costs, it seems one sided, but when you factor in labour, marketing, R&D, market demand, and other business costs (as you would if you were seriously trying to keep a business running), it doesn't seem so bad. I just looked up the price on this cable and it's $152.50 without any middle-man mark-up. For some people it's worth it to not have to DIY it.


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## troymadison

love your cat btw


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## Akathisia

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *troymadison* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_love your cat btw_

 

Haha thanks. He feels like a rock star now that he's on the internet 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Anyway, I just checked on Virtual Dynamics' website, and it states that the Power 3 uses "LiniPur Conductors". LiniPur can also be called :

 E70347 F 14 AWG 12.08MM THHN or THHN-2 Copper Wire

12 and 14 Gauge THHN House Wire Product Info and Reviews | DoItYourself.com


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## Akathisia

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gz76* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't know... when you look at the material costs, it seems one sided, but when you factor in labour, marketing, R&D, market demand, and other business costs (as you would if you were seriously trying to keep a business running), it doesn't seem so bad. I just looked up the price on this cable and it's $152.50 without any middle-man mark-up. For some people it's worth it to not have to DIY it._

 

I understand all of the difficulties of running a small niche business. But, that doesn't excuse lying and shoddy craftsmanship (see smashed wire in the Schurter connector as an example).

 Like I said. I feel much safer now that my computer is plugged back into the wall with molded power cable.


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## FallenAngel

I feel this thread is about to get deleted 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 but it does make me feel good about having plans to build my own power cord.


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## colonelkernel8

Yes, please delete the truth admins. Good god this is funny. Yeah, it makes a HUGE difference in sound considering its the same crap thats in the walls. On top of that, they are outright lying about their product, LiniPur conductors... I guess they don't expect anyone to cut open their expensive cable. Just goes to show you how Virtual Dynamics and other similar companies sell snake oil and rely on the gullibility of audiophiles and their unprecedented susceptibility to placebo.


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## Akathisia

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *FallenAngel* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I feel this thread is about to get deleted 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 but it does make me feel good about having plans to build my own power cord._

 

I don't see why this thread should get deleted. It's all factual.


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## Killercrush

Best thread ever, period.


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## FallenAngel

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Akathisia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't see why this thread should get deleted. It's all factual._

 

Oh, absolutely, it's just the whole idea of reverse-engineering and posting details of how a commercial product is made that isn't always liked. Personally, I see no problems with it.


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## fraseyboy

HUH?!?!?! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 So my Testament 2.0 is made of the same stuff...

 But... But... But.... I SWEAR it makes the sound better


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## FallenAngel

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fraseyboy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_HUH?!?!?! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 So my Testament 2.0 is made of the same stuff...

 But... But... But.... I SWEAR it makes the sound better 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Yes, and who says that a "standard" cable can't sound nice? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Oh, and placebo has been measured to change perception


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## colonelkernel8

I am sure their Genesis is made of the same LHHN wire..., just 6 gauge. This also pretty much throws out markl's reviews (build quality of 7 on VD cables, are you kidding? Hot glue and electrical tape?!). This really changes everything. People claim that this cable "sounds" better than cables that are actually well made with quality materials, therefore, it has to all be thrown out because of placebo. This thread makes me happy.


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## gz76

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *FallenAngel* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Oh, absolutely, it's just the whole idea of reverse-engineering and posting details of how a commercial product is made that isn't always liked. Personally, I see no problems with it._

 

What the OP has done is akin to opening the case on a CD player... nothing wrong with that. I don't see cause for deletion.


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## colonelkernel8

Want to see the inside of my Rotel CD player? I guarantee the manufacturer's specifications are exactly what is on the inside of it. Unlike audiophile companies who claim BS and often don't post jack about what is really inside it. Goldmund is a good example...(Remember the 6000gbp rebranded Pioneer budget DVD player?). The entire audiophile industry (with, of course, several exceptions, more smaller companies) is built on lies and deceit.


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## Akathisia

I had no intention of reverse engineering the cable.

 I had the Power 3 plugged into my computer this week while I waited to do some testing (I don't have any decent gear right now).

 First test was my buddies 50" Plasma, since Acoustic Chef said you will see a difference in Picture Quality.

 Second test was recording some things in my other buddies basement recording studio. Using the cable on the recording equipment, and also on his Bogner amp (which would probably be the most Hi-Fi piece of equipment I have access to).

 I don't really see a reason to do this now.


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## chesebert

$150 sales price is a reasonable markup on the $15 raw cost. 

 15 (raw cost) + $15 (0.5hr labor) + overhead (20% of sales) = $60 cost

 EBITA = $70; net income = 60% EBITA = $42 or 28% of sales. 

 seems fair to me.


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## lan

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Akathisia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't really see a reason to do this now._

 

Well you can't anyway because you can't put it back together?


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## Jon118

Wow, I figured that a nice cable wouldn't really make much difference, so long as the cable you had been using wasn't just oxidized copper or something of the like in terrible shape, but I didn't think they would be worse than what you already had. Of course this is just one manufacturer, and maybe this was an off cable, but that is giving them the benefit of the doubt, that's for sure.

 Even still, this post further proved that...
 1. These fancy power cables (probably the higher end interconnects as well) are really overpriced.
 2. The stuff that goes into these is absolutely nothing special that a diy-er can't do for much less.

 Good stuff OP, good stuff.


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## Akathisia

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *lan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well you can't anyway because you can't put it back together?_

 

I don't really see the point in doing tests. I would definitely be subject to expectation bias now. 

 Anyways, I'm a little disenchanted with the whole situation. 

 I wish it would have at least had matched connectors rated at 20 amps, or conductors that weren't smashed (that just blows my mind).


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## Sovkiller

Who wants to buy my Power-1? The first $200.00 will get it...


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## chesebert

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Who wants to buy my Power-1? The first $200.00 will get it... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

PMed


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## FallenAngel

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Akathisia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't really see the point in doing tests. I would definitely be subject to expectation bias now. 

 Anyways, I'm a little disenchanted with the whole situation. 

 I wish it would have at least had matched connectors rated at 20 amps, or conductors that weren't smashed (that just blows my mind)._

 

Most connectors are rated at 10 or 15 amps. I think the 20 amp connectors have horizontal pins so they don't fit standard equipment.

 About the conductors being smashed, yep, that's what we call strain-relief.


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## Akathisia

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *FallenAngel* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Most connectors are rated at 10 or 15 amps. I think the 20 amp connectors have horizontal pins so they don't fit standard equipment._

 

WATTGATE / Marinco

 ^^ These are rated at 20 amps. Try Google next time.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *FallenAngel* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_About the conductors being smashed, yep, that's what we call strain-relief. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

The Schurter 10 amp plug used does not have strain relief for 3 14g wires, it has strain relief for the shielding/covering of a small overall diameter cable.

 The wire is smashed right next to the screw where the retaining cap comes down. See the green conductor in this picture :


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## Dan Millheim

Can you take your cat apart too? Please include pics...just kidding.


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## Mher6

If the Nite is encased in garden hose, its customized with VD's logo on it


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## bigshot

I guess the garden hose was the reason for all the talk about electricity flowing like water through unconstricted pipes!

 I bet people will still be buying this stuff after seeing those pictures. Some people have a lot invested in cables, and I don't just mean money.

 See ya
 Steve


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## IPodPJ

There was a video on Youtube with Rick Schultz of VD when they launched their partnership with Audiogon. He said there prices are based on how much emotional enjoyment you will get from the sonic experience, nothing to do with build cost.

 Obviously they have figured out a way to make those inexpensive components sound good together since most of us with a Power 3 love the way they sound. I have 4 power cables (2 stock and 2 aftermarket) and I can easily tell you that the Power 3 is the best sounding one. For the people who just wish to criticize something before you even try it on your system, it's getting old already.

 The OP has a legitimate concern for safety here and that's understandable. If there are build quality issues that affect safety, that is something that needs to be addressed immediately.

 But I don't see you jumping down the throat of the company who makes your shampoo. A $4.00 bottle of shampoo costs about 10 - 15 cents to make. Why aren't you upset at their markups? Or how about those bottles of water people like to carry around with them everywhere? It's bad enough they cost what they do, but most use municipal city water (and will be required to put that on the labels very soon). How come you don't have a beef with them?


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## colonelkernel8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There was a video on Youtube with Rick Schultz of VD when they launched their partnership with Audiogon. He said there prices are based on how much emotional enjoyment you will get from the sonic experience, nothing to do with build cost.

 Obviously they have figured out a way to make those inexpensive components sound good together since most of us with a Power 3 love the way they sound. I have 4 power cables (2 stock and 2 aftermarket) and I can easily tell you that the Power 3 is the best sounding one. For the people who just wish to criticize something before you even try it on your system, it's getting old already.

 The OP has a legitimate concern for safety here and that's understandable. But I don't see you jumping down the company who makes your shampoo. A $4.00 bottle of shampoo costs about 10 - 15 cents to make. Why aren't you upset at their markups?_

 

Defend them to the end... Its a cheap-*** piece of housing wiring put in a garden hose to make it appear thicker then it is wrapped in some techflex to make it pretty and sold for $150. This is clearly a genius implementation. What the hell is wrong with you? The only thing you are hearing is "Virtual Dynamics" written on the cable and their marketing BS.


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## Acoustic Chef

Really what did you expect? Haven't been dissecting any ~$150 power cords lately have you..?

 The power 3 give away was a gift, a story about how dynamic filtering can effect the sound.


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## lan

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Akathisia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't really see the point in doing tests. I would definitely be subject to expectation bias now. 

 Anyways, I'm a little disenchanted with the whole situation. 

 I wish it would have at least had matched connectors rated at 20 amps, or conductors that weren't smashed (that just blows my mind)._

 

Well at least you are honest enough to say you are affected by expectation bias.

 I'm not sure what you mean by smashed. Maybe I'm not looking at the right thing in the photos.

 I wish the cable wasn't destroyed though as somebody could've still used it.


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## colonelkernel8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Really what did you expect? Haven't been dissecting any ~$150 power cords lately have you..?_

 

I dissected a Magic Power cable from Signal Cable that was built 10x better with better components. It was $60.

 You claim that this will improve your sound? You also claim that the cheap housing wire is a "LiniPur" conductor. The same "LiniPur" conductor in your Genesis series of cables?


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## FallenAngel

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Akathisia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_WATTGATE / Marinco

 ^^ These are rated at 20 amps. Try Google next time._

 

Yep, look at the 20 Amp IEC connectors, they are horizontal and will not fit your standard vertical oriented plug, lets not bite my head off 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The male wall connectors, yes, those can be rated at 20 Amps, but are you pulling even 1/20 of that? No matter, just wanted to point out the IEC connector.

 I have a few power cords, and can easily say that my $3 DIY line filter made a much bigger difference than the $25 Iron Lung power cord that I use for my speaker amp (I also own a Quail).

 Hopefully when I build my VenHaus power cord with 3x 12AWG SPC, I'll see a nicer change.


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## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *colonelkernel8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Defend them to the end... Its a cheap-*** piece of housing wiring put in a garden hose to make it appear thicker then it is wrapped in some techflex to make it pretty and sold for $150. This is clearly a genius implementation. What the hell is wrong with you? The only thing you are hearing is "Virtual Dynamics" written on the cable and their marketing BS._

 

I'm not defending anyone, buddy. If you only knew the conversation I had with our VD rep today... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But people like you dont care to praise the good when it's good. I, on the other hand, will praise a company for a product that is good but come down just as hard on them when there is a problem with it. If you've seen my posts lately you would know that. People like you just like finding fault with a product when you haven't even tried one or own one. You jump on the "cable skeptics" bandwagon and find any thread you can possibly join for the sole purpose of attacking a company and their products to make yourself appear "cool" to the cable-bashing in-crowd. Yes, we all know their marketing strategy and choice of words are a little misplaced. But they also have some of the best audio cables and cords on the market and if you actually had one you would know that.


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## fraseyboy

I think you should test it out anyway and see if it makes a difference to your system.

 Maybe that metal powder is MAGIC FAIRY DUST that AUTOMAGICALY makes everything better?


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## FallenAngel

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fraseyboy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think you should test it out anyway and see if it makes a difference to your system.

 Maybe that metal powder is MAGIC FAIRY DUST that AUTOMAGICALY makes everything better?_

 

Hmm... maybe it actually could be by acting as an RFI/EMI shield and raising the dielectric properties of the cable. Who knows, there could be something to it.


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## SoundGoon

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Dan Millheim* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Can you take your cat apart too? Please include pics...just kidding._

 

lol nice


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## colonelkernel8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm not defending anyone, buddy. If you only knew the conversation I had with our VD rep today... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But people like you dont care to praise the good when it's good. I, on the other hand, will praise a company for a product that is good but come down just as hard on them when there is a problem with it. If you've seen my posts lately you would know that. People like you just like finding fault with a product when you haven't even tried one or own one. You jump on the "cable skeptics" bandwagon and find any thread you can possibly join for the sole purpose of attacking a company and their products to make yourself appear "cool" to the cable-bashing in-crowd. Yes, we all know their marketing strategy and choice of words are a little misplaced. But they also have some of the best audio cables and cords on the market and if you actually had one you would know that._

 

Problem is, you have not ever had a problem with any of their products (as far as I know). They could literally hand you a coathanger in a garden hose with their logo on it and you would praise it. That and the fact the VD straight up lies to people and you brush it off as nothing. At least Signal Cable (not that I even support Signal Cable) has products that they could actually stand behind and dont use hot glue, electric tape and garden hose. Sure they aren't as pretty on the outside, but they are nicer on the inside. All you see is the pretty outside and the pretty website and the pretty words like ProtecX and LiniPur.

 Does it matter at all that the laws of physics are on the "cable skeptics" side? Its not even a matter of "skepticism", its certainty.


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## crazyeyes

I just got one of the Power 3 give aways as well and i am happy with it. Even if the build quality isn't anything impressive the difference it makes in my system is impressive. So what if it isn't using the best parts, sound is subjective and is down to the individual. Just cause a Ferrari is $200,000 doesn't mean a $65,000 corvette Z06 can't keep up with it. Just cause you go buy cost and cost of components used, and build quality doesn't mean anything in terms of sheer results. I think the cable sounds good and does its job so who cares if it is using $20 worth of supplies they figured out a way to make that sound good.


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## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *colonelkernel8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Does it matter at all that the laws of physics are on the "cable skeptics" side? Its not even a matter of "skepticism", its certainty._

 

Oh certainty you say? Laws of physics you say? You mind explaining to me what you know about electrons? You must know more than the quantum physicists who don't even know why electrons behave the way they do. You must know why they've observed single electrons in 5 places at once. For you to speak of such certainty, you must know something even they don't. Perhaps because you hold all the keys to the hidden doors, you should change your screen name from ColonelKernel to Master Of The Universe.

 I just learned last night from NASA's website that electrons don't move more than 20cm/second. They bump other electrons out of the way, on down the line just like those little novelties you keep on your desk with the 5 steel balls suspended from wire (I probably learned this when I was in grade school but have long since forgot). Knowing this, how can you say that certain audio cables and power cords won't conduct electricity more efficiently, as well as acting as line filters?


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## colonelkernel8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Oh certainty you say? Laws of physics you say? You mind explaining to me what you know about electrons? You must know more than the quantum physicists who don't even know why electrons behave the way they do. You must know why they've observed single electrons in 5 places at once. For you to speak of such certainty, you must know something even they don't.

 I just learned last night from NASA's website that electrons don't move more than 20cm/second. They bump other electrons out of the way, on down the line just like those little novelties you keep on your desk with the 5 steel balls suspended from wire (I probably learned this when I was in grade school but have long since forgot). Knowing this, how can you say that certain audio cables and power cords won't conduct electricity more efficiently, as well as acting as line filters?_

 

Right, I suppose Rick Schultz does know all that our scientists don't, considering he probably has an MBA. How can you tell if a product is improving anything if you don't have a basis on which you test and measure it? Much less develop it.


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## crazyeyes

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *colonelkernel8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Right, I suppose Rick Schultz does know all that our scientists don't, considering he probably has an MBA. How can you tell if a product is improving anything if you don't have a basis on which you test and measure it? Much less develop it._

 

Who cares what a meter or computer tells you about anything. My Ears are the only instrument i trust when it comes down to sound. Your are telling me if you switch from one speaker to another you can't hear a difference without a meter or computer telling you there is one? Or if you switch a cable you have to see a difference on paper for there to actually be one? Sorry but i go by what i hear.


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## colonelkernel8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *crazyeyes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Who cares what a meter or computer tells you about anything. My Ears are the only instrument i trust when it comes down to sound. Your are telling me if you switch from one speaker to another you can't hear a difference without a meter or computer telling you there is one? Or if you switch a cable you have to see a difference on paper for there to actually be one? Sorry but i go by what i hear._

 

No, because speakers actually make a *very* audible and very measurable difference.


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## RedLeader

I love cable discussions!


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## Uncle Erik

_Res ipsa loquitur._

 Anyone interested in buying a bridge? How about some land in Florida?

 And thanks for the kitty pictures - very cute.


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## crazyeyes

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *colonelkernel8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No, because speakers actually make a *very* audible and very measurable difference._

 

Here we go again with the "measurable" difference. I don't care if the difference isn't measurable all i care about is an audible difference which i and many others have heard with interconnects, power cables, and speaker cables. I am one of the most skeptic people when it comes to cables and i wouldn't have been saying this years ago. But i have tried a few cables and they DO make an audible difference.


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## colonelkernel8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *crazyeyes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Here we go again with the "measurable" difference. I don't care if the difference isn't measurable all i care about is an audible difference which i and many others have heard with interconnects, power cables, and speaker cables. I am one of the most skeptic people when it comes to cables and i wouldn't have been saying this years ago. But i have tried a few cables and they DO make an audible difference._

 

Would you be interested in buying some of my cables then? I have some Signal Cables up for sale in the FS forums. Make me an offer. At least they are made with quality.


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## crazyeyes

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *colonelkernel8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Would you be interested in buying some of my cables then? I have some Signal Cables up for sale in the FS forums. Make me an offer. At least they are made with quality._

 

If i were looking to buy cables maybe, but right now i am happy with the cables i have even though they might not be built the best they sound just fine to me. Thanks though.


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## gotchaforce

heres a really expensive transparent cable no doubt... whats inside the box is magic:


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## dgbiker1

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *colonelkernel8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No, because speakers actually make a *very* audible and very measurable difference._

 

Agreed. My background (Biomedical Engineering) isn't in this field, but seems to parallel the concepts that should be at play. Medical signals deal with more noise (1:100 SNR isn't abnormal), and need to be processed much more precisely as poor frequency response, signal processing, and noise attenuation can mean death, not poor SQ (Loved our society motto: When we mess up, you die
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




). 

 If you considered the passive properties (R,L,and C) of a "high-end" and a decent power cord, then pass the signal through transformers, rectifier bridges, and capacitors to obtain your DC supply voltage, the differences between the two cords are less than negligible. The cord does act as a line filter, but hardly has any effect relative to the rest of the electronics that will affect your signal. An educated guess on the order of magnitude of (generous) improvement would be about 1x10^-5 V at the power supply output. That's before signal processing, amplifier common mode rejection ratios, output stage filters, etc- not to mention the fact that increasing the power supply voltage to an op-amp has absolutely no effect (gain is gain is gain) on the output unless you're saturating the op-amp. 

 The quantum mechanics of electrons are unimportant here, the RLC differences in the power cords, though they do exist, are far less than normal biological variability (including placebo and all other physiological variability, normally assumed @ 20% variability) and very far below the (well studied) difference threshold of the ear. If you can hear the difference between two power cords, it's because one is very poorly shielded/conductive. 

 So IME if you hear a difference, your $150 bought you a placebo effect. That doesn't mean you don't _hear_ a difference, it just means the improvement isn't taking place in the electrical domain but in the physiological domain. And I'm only talking about about power cables, the effects of interconnects and other signal cables are orders of magnitude more significant than power cables. They actually have an effect on frequency response (power cables do not), and the noise in a signal cable is amplified (and filtered, but no filter is perfect) for interconnects, or unfiltered if a headphone/speaker cable.


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## chesebert

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dgbiker1* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Agreed. My background (Biomedical Engineering) isn't in this field, but seems to parallel the concepts that should be at play. Medical signals deal with more noise (1:100 SNR isn't abnormal), and need to be processed much more precisely as poor frequency response, signal processing, and noise attenuation can mean death, not poor SQ (Loved our society motto: When we mess up, you die
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




). 

 If you considered the passive properties (R,L,and C) of a "high-end" and a decent power cord, then pass the signal through transformers, rectifier bridges, and capacitors to obtain your DC supply voltage, the differences between the two cords are less than negligible. The cord does act as a line filter, but hardly has any effect relative to the rest of the electronics that will affect your signal. An educated guess on the order of magnitude of (generous) improvement would be about 1x10^-5 V at the power supply output. That's before signal processing, amplifier common mode rejection ratios, output stage filters, etc. 

 The quantum mechanics of electrons are unimportant here, the RLC differences in the power cords, though they do exist, are far less than normal biological variability (including placebo and all other physiological variability, normally assumed @ 20% variability) and very far below the (well studied) difference threshold of the ear. If you can hear the difference between two power cords, it's because one is very poorly shielded/conductive. 

 So IME if you hear a difference, your $150 bought you a placebo effect. That doesn't mean you don't hear a difference, it just means the improvement isn't taking place in the electrical domain but in the physiological domain._

 

My background (Electrical Engineering) is in this field; RLC @ DC does not define cable performance. My background does not give me the tools to understand why power cables work; need physics background.


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_But they also have some of the best audio cables and cords on the market and if you actually had one you would know that._

 

Did you miss seeing the photos at the beginning of this thread?

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *crazyeyes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just cause a Ferrari is $200,000 doesn't mean a $65,000 corvette Z06 can't keep up with it_

 

I don't think that standard house wiring in a garden hose qualifies as much more than a Yugo.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## gotchaforce

Also you guys should seriously watch their youtubes

 they reveal a lot about cable construction


----------



## Acoustic Chef

Only if I could post picks of the cables we dissected from trade.. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 So who wants to buy my gold chain cable for $500 bucks? It has $400 worth of gold in it, and platinum braided shielding.
 Who cares what it sounds like, it has expensive parts.


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Really what did you expect? Haven't been dissecting any ~$150 power cords lately have you..? The power 3 give away was a gift, a story about how dynamic filtering can effect the sound. BTW the fill is just sand blasting pelts. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

What the heck are you saying? "Dynamic filtering" is just a story that you made up? Since the cord was a gift that retails for $150 one shouldn't expect any more than house wiring and a garden hose full of sand blasting pellets? Are you for real?

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Did you miss seeing the photos at the beginning of this thread?

 See ya
 Steve_

 

Animals chew on cables. Anyone who has a high-end audio system and lets their animals in the same room obviously doesn't care if they have to spend more money buying new equipment, which inevitably will happen.

 I've never seen a cable company's manual say "We don't mind if your pets try to chew through our cables. Feel free to let your pets use them as a chew toy, as they are impervious to sharp teeth."


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Animals chew on cables._

 

You totally dodged the point. The cable was made of garden hose, house wire, and sandblasting pellets and was jerry rigged together with a glue gun. It isn't made any better than a stock cable. In fact, it's made considerably worse. Is this cable UL rated?

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If you only knew the conversation I had with our VD rep today..._

 

Are you a stereo salesman too?!

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## TheMarchingMule

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Animals chew on cables. Anyone who has a high-end audio system and lets their animals in the same room obviously doesn't care if they have to spend more money buying new equipment, which inevitably will happen.

 I've never seen a cable company's manual say "We don't mind if your pets try to chew through our cables. Feel free to let your pets use them as a chew toy, as they are impervious to sharp teeth." 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I honestly can't tell if you're being sarcastic, but *bigshot* meant to look at the construction and materials used to make the cable.

 EDIT: Oh, beaten to it...alas, this thread does remind of the time the big DBT testing results between a Radio Shack cable, silver, and copper cable came about, and how many thought the RS one was the best, and many switched silver and copper around (pertaining to the said "sound signatures" of said cable types).


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Only if I could post picks of the cables we dissected from trade._

 

We aren't talking about other brands of cables. We are talking about this particular cable. Would you care to comment on the discrepancy between the way this cable is represented and what we see in the pictures?

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You totally dodged the point. The cable was made of garden hose, house wire, sandblasting pellets and a glue gun. It isn't made any better than a stock cable. In fact, it's made considerably worse. Is this cable UL rated?_

 

Yes, I hear what you're saying. But I don't care if it's made out of tinfoil wrapped in foreskin. If the sonic result is pleasing and the cable is made safely and UL listed, who cares? I agree with you, all cables need to be UL listed. Safety is of paramount importance. But when a pet is gnawing away at a cable for long enough, he is bound to get shocked or at the very least, ruin your cable.

  Quote:


 Are you a stereo salesman too?!

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## Acoustic Chef

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What the heck are you saying? "Dynamic filtering" is just a story that you made up? Since the cord was a gift that retails for $150 one shouldn't expect any more than house wiring and a garden hose full of sand blasting pellets? Are you for real?

 See ya
 Steve_

 

The Basic and Power 3 tell the story of how you can take the simplest wire and by simply applying even sandblasting metal to the surrounding wire you can turn the once $50 cable into a $5000+ cable. 

 If you want to build your own and hear the difference go right ahead. I really don't care, would save us a lot of trouble considering we don’t make a cent off them anyway. After you hear the difference you can crawl back to us begging for the real deal.
 Go ahead, dissect a David, I dare you.


 What's the big deal here? again what do you expect for $150 dollars? *Or in most all your cases, FREE.*

 BTW this is nothing new… Jude did this exact same thing years ago, and it's still around, people are still buying them, you know why?.. Because they sound dam good, and get substantially better as you move up our line.


 If any of you knew a thing or two you would know all cable companies are full of ****, and that Virtual Dynamics are as honest as they come, why? Because we are not a cable company, we are a technology company whos goal is to teach and educate.


----------



## dgbiker1

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *chesebert* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My background (Electrical Engineering) is in this field; RLC @ DC does not define cable performance. My background does not give me the tools to understand why power cables work; need physics background._

 

RLC doesn't affect DC... but power cables handle AC
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 My point was that what minimal effect the cable properties have on the 120VAC signal will be pretty much gone by the time you've been through AC-DC conversion and passed through the active components. And the effect will be much less than normal psychological and physiological variability.


----------



## bigshot

Beware of shills.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The Basic and Power 3 tell the story of how you can take the simplest wire and by simply applying sandblasting metal to the surrounding wire you can turn the once $50 cable into a $5000+ cable._

 

Turning lead into gold so to speak.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I really don't care, we don’t make a cent off them anyway._

 

I'm sure you are crying all the way to the bank.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What's the big deal here? again what do you expect for $150 dollars? Or in most all your cases, FREE._

 

Brilliant marketing strategy. Give away five or ten pigeon shot garden hoses to gullible folks in a chat room. If their delusions posted in the forum lead to a couple of sales at full retail, you've made a tidy profit on almost zero investment.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If any of you knew a thing or two you would know all cable companies are full of ****, and that Virtual Dynamics is as honest as they come, why? Because we are not a cable company, we are a technology company whos goal is to teach and educate._

 

Oh yeah! We're all learning a lesson right now. (For an educator, you should be able to spell "whose" correctly.)

 Akathisia, you should send your story, the photos and the link to this thread to Gizmodo and Engadget.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## jgonino

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What's the big deal here? again what do you expect for $150 dollars?._

 

For $150 dollars, I expect top notch build quality, with at least above average components*. You have provided below average components, and poor build quality.*

 I would be happy to review one of your power cords, in order to see what kind of sound quality you get for $150. 

 To IpodPJ: I understand you like how this cable sounds, but even if it does, you *really* think it is ok for it to be made of crap?


----------



## Acoustic Chef

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jgonino* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_For $150 dollars, I expect top notch build quality, with at least above average components*. You have provided below average components, and poor build quality.*

 I would be happy to review one of your power cords, in order to see what kind of sound quality you get for $150. 

 To IpodPJ: I understand you like how this cable sounds, but even if it does, you *really* think it is ok for it to be made of crap?_

 

Ok so what would you expect for free then?

 That's exactly what this guy said, and look what become of that.


----------



## jgonino

That question does not matter, because free or not, your product should be up to the same standard of the ones you sell for full asking price.


----------



## bigshot

This is unbelievable.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## jgonino

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This is unbelievable.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

I agree.


----------



## Acoustic Chef

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jgonino* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That question does not matter, because free or not, your product should be up to the same standard of the ones you sell for full asking price._

 

But guess what, it wasn't..? 

 Boohoo go make ur own.


----------



## c0mfortably_numb

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ Is this cable UL rated?_

 

That was my question to, I just bit my tongue, as I really don't feel like being flamed, but as the old saying goes Curiosity killed the cat.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What's the big deal here? again what do you expect for $150 dollars? *Or in most all your cases, FREE.*_

 

First and foremost, a safely constructed cord, and UL listing.


----------



## abs@nilenet.com

Wow! I am shocked by how a well respected Member of the Trade is acting in this thread. Is this Head-fi or kindergarten?

 In addition, are you saying that the free cables were inferior to the cable with the same name that you sell for money?

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_But guess what, it wasn't..? 

 Boohoo go make ur own._

 

Happy Listening!


----------



## FallenAngel

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *c0mfortably_numb* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_First and foremost, a safely constructed cord, and UL listing._

 

Hmm... this does raise a concern, do we know of any "audiophile" or "custom" cables that actually have UL listings?


----------



## fraseyboy

Well....

 ... I hope this thread doesn't hurt the resale value of my free Testament 2.0 if I happen to go down that route.

 But I don't know I will though. Even if it's made of a garden hose, it manages to sound better somehow and isn't that all that matters?


----------



## c0mfortably_numb

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *FallenAngel* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hmm... this does raise a concern, do we know of any "audiophile" or "custom" cables that actually have UL listings?_

 

As far as I am aware my Ironlong cable is ( Quail is the actual manufacture)


----------



## bigshot

Jgonino wrote: That question does not matter, because free or not, your product should be up to the same standard of the ones you sell for full asking price.

 Acoustic Chef answered: But guess what, it wasn't.

 I think a moderator needs to get involved here. If this guy was giving away inferior cables as a giveaway like he says, they might be fire hazards. Does anyone have a list of who got the giveaway cables? They should be contacted so they can unplug the damn things until it gets sorted out.

 Edit: I just dropped a line to the mods.


----------



## colonelkernel8

Indeed. Something tells me "I told you so" just doesn't cut it here. The lies, the deceit, the immaturity...


----------



## FallenAngel

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *c0mfortably_numb* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_As far as I am aware my Ironlong cable is ( Quail is the actual manufacture)_

 

I've got a Quail power cord from the group buy a while back and I have an Iron Lung as well, both UL and CSA approved.

 I was actually more interested in the custom built ones, something like ALO Audio, Moon Audio, the custom ones. I would certainly guess that the wire itself is spec'd above what it needs to do, but once you custom build it, it's another story. In this case, I don't think that any actually custom built ones actually get certified.


----------



## c0mfortably_numb

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *FallenAngel* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've got a Quail power cord from the group buy a while back and I have an Iron Lung as well, both UL and CSA approved.

 I was actually more interested in the custom built ones, something like ALO Audio, Moon Audio, the custom ones. I would certainly guess that the wire itself is spec'd above what it needs to do, but once you custom build it, it's another story. In this case, I don't think that any actually custom built ones actually get certified._

 

Yea thats the one thing thats kept me really from upgrading to a fancy boutique cable. Interconnects are one thing, but when it comes to Mains, I like to play it safe call me crazy


----------



## bigshot

I just did a quick check on the giveaway thread. It says there were five cables given away. Were they all power cables? I am seriously concerned about the safety issue. Who were the five winners?


----------



## fraseyboy

Would there still be safety concerns for the digital cables though since they don't really connect directly to electricity or anything? Or maybe they do... Hmmm I'll unplug mine before I go to bed...


----------



## Dual

I was picked for a free cable. I refused the offer once they asked me to pay $90USD shipping for the "free" cable.

 Im glad I didn't go for it.


----------



## FallenAngel

Uhm... this might be overdoing it a little bit. The cable construction looks decent and I didn't see absolutely any safety hazard in it. Since these really sound like serious claims of "safety", I wouldn't want to jump the gun. The wire itself as well as the connectors are all spec'd above what they are used for and I think any and all *custom* cable using good (and safety approved) components, while maintaining *proper* consturciton should be safe. I highly doubt any small audio company actually has their cables certified. I know I'm adding a dangerous word by saying "proper" construction, but even the squeezed wire doesn't look very pretty in the IEC connector, it still looks properly done.


----------



## Uncle Erik

This all reminds me of a nice story from Hans Christian Anderson:

The Emperor's New Clothes by Hans Christian Andersen (1805-75) adapted by Stephen Corrin in Stories for Seven-Year-Olds. London 1964


----------



## Febs

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *FallenAngel* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I feel this thread is about to get deleted 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 but it does make me feel good about having plans to build my own power cord._

 

It shouldn't be deleted. Jude himself once did a very similar exposition of a VD cable:

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f21/di...85/index2.html


----------



## chesebert

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dgbiker1* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_RLC doesn't affect DC... but power cables handle AC
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 My point was that what minimal effect the cable properties have on the 120VAC signal will be pretty much gone by the time you've been through AC-DC conversion and passed through the active components. And the effect will be much less than normal psychological and physiological variability._

 

RLC is freq dependent based on the lumped wire model. 

 I can measure power cable difference in my spkr system. approx 1dB better bass extension at 30Hz on a tone sweep going from Volex to Black Sand Violet; granted I haven't had the time to measure the VD cables, but the bass extension is too obvious for me to bother to measure.

 On the topic of VD and its response to a genuine concern posed by one of our members. The response and conduct displayed by VD is unprofessional. If the VD rep implied that the 'free cable' is somehow _different_ from that of the retail version and the 'free' version is inferior to that of the original; then that's 'bait and switch' and is not only unethical business practice (fraud) but maybe unlawful in different states. OTOH, if the Power3 is truly constructed with an aggregated parts some of which was shown on the 1st page, then VD at least owes a moral duty to explain to its customers the justification behind charging them $150 for $15 worth of raw material. 

 We will not reprimand you for making a profit; as long as its reasonable; and you are not profiteering off of our community because you are a trusted member (cough.. this applies to other cable makers besides VD). 

 I love the VD cable but I think they need to re-think their marketing strategy and their communications.


----------



## philodox

The construction is a little dodgy, but I wouldn't expect much of a $150 cable... especially when the company also sells cables that cost over $1k. I mean, there has to be some difference between the different models, right?

 What really surprises me is the lack of maturity on the VD reps responses. I wonder if the company realizes what a ****** they have speaking for them here on head-fi?


----------



## TheMarchingMule

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *philodox* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What really surprises me is the lack of maturity on the VD reps responses. I wonder if the company realizes what a ****** they have speaking for them here on head-fi?_

 

I never got how that word got started as a form of an insult, but I'm totally with you on that. Never have I seen such disgusting behavior from somebody who is supposed to represent the company at its finest of behavior and communication to its customers.

 Not that they'll be getting many now anyway.


----------



## philodox

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *TheMarchingMule* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I never got how that word got started as a form of an insult._

 

Me neither, though it has become a personal favourite in any case.


----------



## OverlordXenu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gz76* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't know... when you look at the material costs, it seems one sided, but when you factor in labour, marketing, R&D, market demand, and other business costs (as you would if you were seriously trying to keep a business running), it doesn't seem so bad. I just looked up the price on this cable and it's $152.50 without any middle-man mark-up. For some people it's worth it to not have to DIY it._

 

...Are you serious? I haven't even read through the thread yet, but I just cannot believe someone would actually post such a thing. Are you in denial, or something?

 BJC cables are built better than this thing and cost less.


----------



## gritzcolin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *c0mfortably_numb* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That was my question to, I just bit my tongue, as I really don't feel like being flamed, but as the old saying goes Curiosity killed the cat._

 

Seems in this case the curious cat killed Virtual Dynamics. Maybe soon. Literally!


----------



## philodox

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *OverlordXenu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_BJC cables are built better than this thing and cost less._

 

Not that I don't agree with you in general, but does Blue Jeans make a power cable?


----------



## Acoustic Chef

Our cables are rigorously tested. The comment was regarding irrelevant cosmetic issues. 

 We try to do something nice and this is what we get? 
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f97/so...er-3-a-283821/
 Most here have no grounds to comment on maturity levels? You honestly think this whole thread passes a grade 2 level?


----------



## infinitesymphony

At least we've all learned how to make a decent DIY power cord, including some interesting aesthetic decisions to add girth and weight. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I hadn't considered building my own until I read this thread... Some wire, some connectors, garden hose, filler, Techflex...

 markl mentions in Jude's original dissection thread that Rick (VD guy) claimed the filler was the "secret sauce" of their cables. It might be interesting to find out whether this sandblasting metal dust has any sort of electrical benefit, possibly along the same line as a ferrite core?


----------



## markl

Quote:


 I am sure their Genesis is made of the same LHHN wire..., just 6 gauge. This also pretty much throws out markl's reviews (build quality of 7 on VD cables, are you kidding? Hot glue and electrical tape?!). This really changes everything. People claim that this cable "sounds" better than cables that are actually well made with quality materials, therefore, it has to all be thrown out because of placebo. This thread makes me happy. 
 

 I rated the Nite cables which are many steps above the Power 3, their intro cable. If you'd like to put $1500 down on a Nite cable and pull it apart, more power to ya. But, since I've held the thing (several of them) in my hand and you haven't, I can tell you, the 7 rating is accurate. And, no, I didn't tear apart and open any of the other cables either (yet I also rated those), but again, I invite you to use your own funds and try it yourself.

 VD used to say the Power 3 was stranded wire and not solid-core single conductor. You can tell this by the way the 3 bends and flexes back, where the solid core conductor cables up the line hold their shape like wire clothes hangers do when bent. Their new site seems to indicate the Power 3 has "Lini Pure" conductors, maybe this is a mis-communication between design and marketing, I don't know.

  Quote:


 Defend them to the end... Its a cheap-*** piece of housing wiring put in a garden hose to make it appear thicker 
 

 The hose is to house the one piece of special sauce the Power 3 has, which is the dampening material (i.e. "Dynamic Filtering"). If you held one in your hands, it would be obvuious it was housed in a rubber "hose"/sheath, so it shouldn't be a shocking revelating to see it when you open it up.

 It's their bottom-of-the-line cable, and lacks all the bells and whistles of the better stuff. At that cheap price, you get their basic cable with Dynamic Filtering which does make a nice difference as many many people have reported here and elsewhere.

 Again, the irony of ironies is that the folks who feign shock and awe are the same ones who claim that power cables make no difference anyway. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Yet they complain that there aren't diamonds and rubies inside to justify the cost, when absolutely nothing inside would justify the cost in their eyes.

 Speaking of diamonds, how much do you think it costs to "make" a 1 karat diamond? Pick it up off the ground, cut it and mount it and sell it for $100K. Why do these sorts of discussions always have to end up in re-educating people about capitalism. We always seem to have a lot of socialists/communists on these boards. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 There's this concept called *value*. Value is totally independent of the *cost* to make something (see diamond example). If it performs at a level commensurate or better than other competing products at its price point (as the VD cords do), then it is good value for the dollar, regardless of what it costs to make. 

 That's how we decide to make decisisons in the marketplace, we spend our money based on value of the performance of the product, not its cost of manufacture (which is almost always unknown to us).

 You also always have to re-educate people that there is more to the cost of any product than the cost of materials (which will almost always be your smallest and least important cost in bringing anything to market). 

 And, horror of horrors, in a capitalist system, you will be shocked to learn there's an actual *discrepancy* between what you pay for something and what it cost to bring to market. Yikes!


----------



## OverlordXenu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_But guess what, it wasn't..? 

 Boohoo go make ur own._

 

Skillz, I must say, you aren't very good at rhetoric.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *abs@nilenet.com* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wow! I am shocked by how a well respected Member of the Trade is acting in this thread. Is this Head-fi or kindergarten?

 In addition, are you saying that the free cables were inferior to the cable with the same name that you sell for money?



 Happy Listening!_

 

If you've known him elsewhere, this is how he usually acts.


----------



## furball

I love that cat!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 So, let's see, garden hose + hot glue + vanilla copper wires + sand blast pelts = $$$

 With this much profits, has Rick bought himself yacht yet?
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





 I always wanted to have a yacht, maybe I should start my own audiophile cable company. Let's see, since sand blast pelts is proprietary stuff (I think VD has a patent pending on that "filtering" technology), I may just have to resort stuffing my garden hose cables with kitty litter, especially used kitty litter. You will be amazed at the wonders of what organic filtration will do to your sound!


----------



## Acoustic Chef

What profit?

 Sandblasting is only used in the power 3 and Basic.


 Lets dissect another cable shall we?


----------



## markl

Let's also open up a stock cable and open it up and see how well it's built/constructed/manufactured (that is, after we dump out all the diamonds and rubies inside 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ). Grab your lamp and open up the cord coming off it. Or your toaster. Or whatever. Sheesh, I mean it doesn't even have a friggin' garden hose on it. What a rip-off.


----------



## gritzcolin

The least they could have done was used Liquid Electrical tape at least it would look nice and function well probably better. 

 To Acoustic Chef: people have every right to ask questions and to question your companies tactics and use of materials for what the cables retail for regardless of what they payed for them. The way you are responding is the way you lose business especially with the niche market you are in. People don't need "high end" cables and if they decide to get some and see this thread kiss a sale good bye. 

 I have never taken a marketing course but I know honesty and understanding is the best way to keep customers happy. You aren't Microsoft or Apple people do not need your product and remember that you cannot treat them as if they do that mentality will only cause your business to fail.

 Also why the avoidance of the question are these UL listed. Cause if they aren't and you have some kind of electrical fire even if its due to lightning or a faulty power strip that is UL listed the insurance company can see that cable and laugh their asses off at you and say sorry you get no money cause that cable may have caused all of this.


----------



## meat01

Quote:


 At that cheap price, you get their basic cable with Dynamic Filtering which does make a nice difference as many many people have reported here and elsewhere. 
 

Since when is $150 cheap for a power cord? Just because it is at the bottom of their line, does not mean it should be made this poorly.

 The size and stiffness of the cord is a marketing technique, so that their customers assume it sounds better, because it is large and heavy. This technique is working well for them, just as Bose and Monster's marketing strategies are successful.


----------



## markl

Quote:


 Since when is $150 cheap for a power cord? 
 

 You can't get anything but the most basic of cords for $150. That is absolutely near the bottom of the range of these things, and pretty typical price for a bottom of the line cord. Look around.


----------



## gritzcolin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You can't get anything but the most basic of cords for $150. That is absolutely near the bottom of the range of these things, and pretty typical price for a bottom of the line cord. Look around._

 

IDK that Iron Lung Jellyfish cable is about $30 and was rated higher than cables more than 10x its price.


----------



## Acoustic Chef

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gritzcolin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The least they could have done was used Liquid Electrical tape at least it would look nice and function well probably better. 

 To Acoustic Chef: people have every right to ask questions and to question your companies tactics and use of materials for what the cables retail for regardless of what they payed for them. The way you are responding is the way you lose business especially with the niche market you are in. People don't need "high end" cables and if they decide to get some and see this thread kiss a sale good bye. 

 I have never taken a marketing course but I know honesty and understanding is the best way to keep customers happy. You aren't Microsoft or Apple people do not need your product and remember that you cannot treat them as if they do that mentality will only cause your business to fail.

 Also why the avoidance of the question are these UL listed. Cause if they aren't and you have some kind of electrical fire even if its due to lightning or a faulty power strip that is UL listed the insurance company can see that cable and laugh their asses off at you and say sorry you get no money cause that cable may have caused all of this._

 

We carry exceptional customer service including myself. Just read around. 
 But the fact is we aren't talking about customers here but rather MOT competitors, skeptics jumping at the opportunity to support them selves and they're beliefs, and people with nothing better to do.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *meat01* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Since when is $150 cheap for a power cord? Just because it is at the bottom of their line, does not mean it should be made this poorly.

 The size and stiffness of the cord is a marketing technique, so that their customers assume it sounds better, because it is large and heavy. This technique is working well for them, just as Bose and Monster's marketing strategies are successful._

 

Wrong again buddy. Its size is to support the graduals that hold such a dramatic influence on the overall sound quality of the cable through the absorption of mechanically induced vibrations.

https://www.virtualdynamics.ca/videos/


----------



## philodox

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You can't get anything but the most basic of cords for $150. That is absolutely near the bottom of the range of these things, and pretty typical price for a bottom of the line cord. Look around._

 

Power Cables

 The Silver Resolution is a bit more expensive, but their other cables are significantly less expensive.

VH Audio - AC Power Cables

 Flavor 1, 2 & 3 are less expensive, with the Flavor 4 being a bit more expensive.


----------



## furball

I honestly don't know what kind of trust fund you have. $150 may just be lunch money for you, but for the rest of us, $150 is a BIG chunk of change.

MonoPrice.com - Best quality products at the lowest price

 I have looked around, and I came across the above link. $5 will buy you a VERY nice powercord, much better quality and construction than that $150 VD powercrod.


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You can't get anything but the most basic of cords for $150. That is absolutely near the bottom of the range of these things, and pretty typical price for a bottom of the line cord. Look around._


----------



## Dorito123

How do you carry customer service? How much does it weigh?

https://shop.pcpower.com/power-cord/14awg.html


----------



## chesebert

granted most of those sub $100 PC are basically cut from commercially available cables, put on the sleeve, and terminated. i.e. the actual cable is off-the-shelf much like what BJC does.


----------



## Akathisia

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_But the fact is we aren't talking about customers here but rather MOT competitors, skeptics jumping at the opportunity to support them selves and they're beliefs, and people with nothing better to do._

 

I started this thread and I don't fall into any of those catagories.

 People here are got carried away on whether or not cables work, but got back on track. Good job everyone.

 This was an accidental discovery. After I cut of the heatshrink and saw the quality of work that went into this $150 cable (oh wait, Chef said the free ones aren't built to the same quality...), I decided to dig a little deeper.

 I posted my findings because that's why this forum exists. A few headphone junkies got together to talk about better headphones and be able to share there hobby for high quality, and their disdain for bullsh*t quality and bose-like marketing nonsense. 

 If I received X headphone from one of the big 5 manufacturers and it was a half-assed build, I would do the exact same thing I did in my first post


----------



## Acoustic Chef

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *philodox* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Power Cables

 The Silver Resolution is a bit more expensive, but their other cables are significantly less expensive.

VH Audio - AC Power Cables

 Flavor 1, 2 & 3 are less expensive, with the Flavor 4 being a bit more expensive._

 

Yes but does it sound better..?


----------



## furball

And VD cables doesn't use off the shelf copper wires?

 You honestly think Rick casts his own magical fairy dust copper wires? Or better yet, he casts his own special brew garden hose?


----------



## philodox

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *chesebert* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_granted most of those sub $100 PC are basically cut from commercially available cables, put on the sleeve, and terminated. i.e. the actual cable is off-the-shelf much like what BJC does._

 

There is detailed info on VH audio about their cable recipies in case you want to DIY them. I believe it is custom wire that they themselves sell.

 As for signal cable, it is possible I suppose, but I doubt it. Their cables are hand made, but they manage to get by without hot glue as far as I can tell...


----------



## chesebert

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *furball* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_And VD cables doesn't use off the shelf copper wires?

 You honestly think Rick casts his own magical fairy dust copper wires? Or better yet, he casts his own special brew garden hose?_

 

you expended the scope of my post; such a straw man argument.


----------



## furball

I think if you replace those sand blast pelts with kitty poo, it will sound 100x better. Try it and listen for yourself. Of course no measuresments allowed, it's all in your ears, or in your nose in this case.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes but does it sound better..?_


----------



## Acoustic Chef

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Akathisia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I started this thread and I don't fall into any of those catagories.

 People here are got carried away on whether or not cables work, but got back on track. Good job everyone.

 This was an accidental discovery. After I cut of the heatshrink and saw the quality of work that went into this $150 cable (oh wait, Chef said the free ones aren't built to the same quality...), I decided to dig a little deeper.

 I posted my findings because that's why this forum exists. A few headphone junkies got together to talk about better headphones and be able to share there hobby for high quality, and their disdain for bullsh*t quality and bose-like marketing nonsense. 

 If I received X headphone from one of the big 5 manufacturers and it was a half-assed build, I would do the exact same thing I did in my first post_

 

You want to know what real BS marketing is? Over priced market hyped pieces slapped together in a cable design that makes no sence what so ever. A cable that has no thought or true understanding to it, but a just a bunch of recognizable brand names..


----------



## markl

Quote:


 IDK that Iron Lung Jellyfish cable is about $30 and was rated higher than cables more than 10x its price. 
 

 And what is that cord? It's a stock off-the-shelf hospital grade cord, not specially made or anything. That's an exception, not the rule.


----------



## philodox

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *furball* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_And VD cables doesn't use off the shelf copper wires?_

 

Please see my response to chesebert. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes but does it sound better..?_

 

I wasn't addressing the sound, I was addressing the cost and construction. I would not make comments on the sound of the Power 3 without hearing it first.


----------



## gritzcolin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_We carry exceptional customer service including myself. Just read around. 
 But the fact is we aren't talking about customers here but rather MOT competitors, skeptics jumping at the opportunity to support them selves and they're beliefs, and people with nothing better to do._

 

You are missing the point. Don't attack the bad apples if there are any. Only thing it does is makes you look worse than them since you are the one representing the product in question. Plus it isnt reassuring, the build quality came into question and instead of a reason the wires are bent the way the are you say "what do you expect for free" to people who aren't MOT and people who have said they like your cables.

 Seems to me it would look better upon VD if you just blocked the punches by answering the questions to the best of your ability and refrained from going on the offensive. 

 Also are they UL listed? It is a legitimate question that has been asked 20 times and I haven't seen an answer unless I missed it.


----------



## Dorito123

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gritzcolin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You are missing the point. Don't attack the bad apples if there are any. Only thing it does is makes you look worse than them since you are the one representing the product in question. Plus it isnt reassuring, the build quality came into question and instead of a reason the wires are bent the way the are you say "what do you expect for free" to people who aren't MOT and people who have said they like your cables.

 Seems to me it would look better upon VD if you just blocked the punches by answering the questions to the best of your ability and refrained from going on the offensive. 

 Also are they UL listed? It is a legitimate question that has been asked 20 times and I haven't seen an answer unless I missed it._

 

x2


----------



## gritzcolin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_And what is that cord? It's a stock off-the-shelf hospital grade cord, not specially made or anything. That's an exception, not the rule._

 

Oh well I was just saying that cause of the $150 being the basement of power cable costs. I might go buy some of those actually.


----------



## chesebert

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *philodox* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There is detailed info on VH audio about their cable recipies in case you want to DIY them. I believe it is custom wire that they themselves sell.

 As for signal cable, it is possible I suppose, but I doubt it. Their cables are hand made, but they manage to get by without hot glue as far as I can tell..._

 

maybe we should define 'hand made', 'custom', 'recipe', and 'cable'.

 Is 'Cable' defined as actual cable? or Is 'cable' the finished cable, which is defined as actual cable + any cosmetic elements + the connectors?

 Is 'hand made' defined as the construction of 'finished cable' by hand or the construction of 'actual cable' by hand? or a person actuated some lever on a machine that made the cable? 

 Is custom defined as 'made to the specification of 1 particular cable maker' or 'made in small runs for a particular purpose, e.g. audio'? 

 Is recipe defined as recipe for actual cable or the recipe for finished cable. And whose recipe is it? what does it mean by 'their recipe'? Is 'their' their supplier or is 'their' the company?


----------



## Acoustic Chef

Do you really want to know what a hospital grade cable is? It's simply cable that has its male nickel plated so when they wash the walls, solution won't drip and corrode the terminates. 
 Now how conductive is nickel?

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *philodox* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There is detailed info on VH audio about their cable recipies in case you want to DIY them. I believe it is custom wire that they themselves sell.

 As for signal cable, it is possible I suppose, but I doubt it. Their cables are hand made, but they manage to get by without hot glue as far as I can tell..._

 

If you would rather not have the ends potted with glue, this can be done if you have some kind of phobia to the stuff? But I warn you, you'll only be taking away from its durability.


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *FallenAngel* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I highly doubt any small audio company actually has their cables certified._

 

I wouldn't recommend using anything that isn't UL listed, and I doubt that any homeowners insurance company would disagree with me.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Our cables are rigorously tested. The comment was regarding irrelevant cosmetic issues._

 

Are your cables UL listed? You have been asked several times, and you don't answer. ARE YOUR CABLES UL LISTED?


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Again, the irony of ironies is that the folks who feign shock and awe are the same ones who claim that power cables make no difference anyway. Yet they complain that there aren't diamonds and rubies inside to justify the cost, when absolutely nothing inside would justify the cost in their eyes._

 

If you're referring to me, you aren't reading what I'm writing. So far, we've had a misstatement of what sort of connectors were used, an admission that the giveaway cables were not up to the standards of the retail ones, and avoidance of the question of whether the product is UL listed. The issue here is business standards, not performance. I think all of us knows how this jerry rigged contraption would perform.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## OverlordXenu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You want to know what real BS marketing is? Over priced market hyped pieces slapped together in a cable design that makes no since what so ever. A cable that has no thought or true understanding to it, but a just a bunch of recognizable brand names.._

 

You mean yours?


----------



## gritzcolin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Do you really want to know what a hospital grade cable is? It's cable that has its male nickel plated so when they wash the walls, solution won't drip and corrode the terminates. 
 Now how conductive is nickel?_

 

Not as conductive as copper but it also doesn't corrode like copper and I will be damned if I am paying money for something that is supposed to improve SQ and have to sand it to keeps its conductivity at prime levels.

 So are your cables UL listed? We still have no answer.


----------



## Acoustic Chef

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Are your cables UL listed?_

 

Doesn't UL only certify up to 10 gauge? If so you need to ask yourself why. and what is UL really...

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gritzcolin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Not as conductive as copper but it also doesn't corrode like copper and I will be damned if I am paying money for something that is supposed to improve SQ and have to sand it to keeps its conductivity at prime levels._

 

That's why we ProtecX treat our ends.

https://www.virtualdynamics.ca/Protecx/


----------



## OverlordXenu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Doesn't UL only certify up to 10 gauge? If so you need to ask yourself why._

 

Stop dodging the question, and answer it, you shill.


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You can't get anything but the most basic of cords for $150._

 

You can get a basic power cord for $4 and it will sound exactly like any other power cord. I could go out and review the sound of every pebble in my yard, and decide which kind I thought sounded best, but it wouldn't make Brilliant Pebbles anything more than sucker bait.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## markl

How many aftermarket cords are UL listed? Almost none. How many of these headphone amps are UL listed?


----------



## Trippytiger

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Now how conductive is nickel?_

 

Well, according to this, the resistivity of pure nickel is somewhat less three times that of pure gold; 6.842E-08 Ohm/m compared to 2.463E-08 Ohm/m. Of course, the actual materials used to plate connectors in the real world are definitely not going to be pure metals, but I think these provide a decent comparison. It doesn't look good for nickel, that's for sure...

 But, consider this: the thickness of these platings is likely going to be on the order of _microns_. That's _one-millionth_ of a meter. The change in resistivity of the plating is going to have a pretty minimal effect on the overall resistance of the cable.


----------



## markl

Quote:


 you shill 
 

 Wow, you got him pegged and uncovered his secret. Yes, Acoustic Chef works for VD and represents their products, you have amazing power of insight. Congrats on rooting that one out. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			






 Also ironic when I read you pimping other cable manufacturers products elsewhere on these boards.


----------



## OverlordXenu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wow, you got him pegged and uncovered his secret. Yes, Acoustic Chef works for VD and represents their products, you have amazing power of insight. Congrats on rooting that one out. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





 Also ironic when I read you pimping other cable manufacturers products elsewhere on these boards._

 

Yes, because Fitz, Monoprice, and Blue Jeans Cable all claim to make cables that sound so much better than anything else and charge $30,000 for them. Those companies and VD are so _similar_, aren't they?


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Doesn't UL only certify up to 10 gauge? If so you need to ask yourself why. and what is UL really..._

 

Underwriters Laboratories

 Looking for, and finding, the UL Mark on a product tells you that samples of this product line have been thoroughly tested and investigated by our team of product safety professionals. If you're not familiar with the UL Mark, it's the letters "UL" inside a circle. Look on your hair dryer, toaster or vacuum cleaner -- it's likely to be there. The UL Mark of Safety should be on every electrical product, fire extinguisher and fuel-burning appliance in your home.

 Virtual Dynamics is not listed in their Online Certifications Directory.

*If you carry homeowner's insurance on your belongings, you should ask your insurance agent how using a non-UL listed "handmade" power cable might impact your ability to make a claim in case of fire. If you rent, you might want to ask your landlord how he feels about you using homemade electrical equipment that hasn't been certified.*

 I'm going to point at the elephant in the room that no one is mentioning yet. I think this guy has people here in the board who are shilling for him without revealing their business relationship with him to the group. I outed one already. I bet there are more. This guy is a real piece of work.

 Caveat emptor.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## markl

Quote:


 Yes, because Fitz, Monoprice, and Blue Jeans Cable all claim to make cables that sound so much better than anything else and charge $30,000 for them. Those companies and VD are so similar, aren't they? 
 

 I see, so it's _not_ shilling when you are doing it for a lower priced product. Gotcha.

  Quote:


 I think this guy has people here in the board who are shilling for him without revealing their business relationship with him to the group. I outed one already. I bet there are more. 
 

 Speaking for myself, I'm just a satisfied customer. What about the shills for other cable companies using this thread as an opportunity to bash another cable maker? Do you see them here as well?


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How many aftermarket cords are UL listed? Almost none. How many of these headphone amps are UL listed?_

 

I think that is a valid question, and one that should be taken into account when someone buys any electrical product. Underwriters Laboratories provides certification for cables under 70 different categories according to their website. 

UL: General Wire & Cable FAQ

 Do these cables even meet NEC code?

 With a ten times markup over cost (or more) cable manufacturers can certainly afford getting their products safety tested for crying out loud. I've googled up this info in ten minutes. Has anyone at Virtual Dynamics taken ten minutes out of their valuable time to insure the safety of their customers? It's one thing for a battery operated Cmoy amp. It's something entirely different for a power cable that stays plugged in to your wall socket 24/7.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## furball

How else do you think this thread got so long? This thread got so long because these people want to bury the truth with utter nonsense, insults, and drag all of us through the mud --> muddy the waters so to speak.

 And about that "powercord review" our esteemed resident reviewer did... Kind of makes me wonder about those "expert" reviews...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm going to point at the elephant in the room that no one is mentioning yet. I think this guy has people here in the board who are shilling for him without revealing their business relationship with him to the group. I outed one already. I bet there are more. This guy is a real piece of work.

 Caveat emptor.

 See ya
 Steve_


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wow, you got him pegged and uncovered his secret. Yes, Acoustic Chef works for VD and represents their products, you have amazing power of insight. Congrats on rooting that one out._

 

Since you've addressed the issue, I'll ask you, have you ever received any audio products for a reduced price or for free to use for your reviews? Have you ever received any compensation of any sort from any audio equipment manufacturer or retailer?

 It's a fair question since one poster on this thread has already indicated that he has a business relationship with Virtual Dynamics.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What about the shills for other cable companies using this thread as an opportunity to bash another cable maker? Do you see them here as well?_

 

I think that shills for other high end cable manufacturers would be well advised to stay clear of this thread. No good is going to come of any of this for them. Light is getting shined on the dirty little secret.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## OverlordXenu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I see, so it's not shilling when you are doing it for a lower priced product. Gotcha._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *American Heritage Dictionary* 
_shill (shĭl) pronunciation Slang.
 n.

 One who poses as a satisfied customer or an enthusiastic gambler to dupe bystanders into participating in a swindle.

 v., shilled, shill·ing, shills.

 v.intr.

 To act as a shill.
 v.tr.

 1. To act as a shill for (a deceitful enterprise).
 2. To lure (a person) into a swindle._

 

Let's see here, BJC et al. aren't trying to "swindle" anyone (they don't make false claims), and I do not work for them, whereas Acoustic Chef works for VD, and VD _does_ make false claims.

 See the difference?


----------



## furball

edit


----------



## OverlordXenu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *furball* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Markl is our resident "golden ear."_

 

Don't you mean egotist?


----------



## markl

Quote:


 Since you've addressed the issue, I'll ask you, have you ever received any audio products for a reduced price or for free to use for your reviews? Have you ever received any compensation of any sort from any audio equipment manufacturer or retailer? 
 

 I have purchased every VD cable I've owned. I wait for their sales to buy cheap or I buy them used on audiogon.

 I do get sent products "free" from time to time by various manufacturers to see if I want to review them. If I don't like it, I send it back. However, if I end up liking it, I have to buy it like anyone else.


----------



## gritzcolin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Doesn't UL only certify up to 10 gauge? If so you need to ask yourself why. and what is UL really..._

 

You should be fired! This is ridiculous. Can't give a straight honest answer about something that should be of major importance. Sorry buddy but your company is poorly ran and full of shifty sales people. 

 It seems to me that you have ZERO marketing experience which is a requirement to have the job you do. According to the VD website. 

 You know VD is an acronym for Venereal Disease as well. That makes me giggle cause it would seem you are selling high quality hot chicks at prime prices only to actually ship a nasty stripper/escort.


----------



## furball

VDRL antibody test for syphilis. Nasty stuff.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			






  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gritzcolin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You know VD is an acronym for Venereal Disease as well. That makes me giggle cause it would seem you are selling high quality hot chicks at prime prices only to actually ship a nasty stripper/escort._


----------



## Acoustic Chef

AAnnyway, thanks for the ruckus guys, was fun but I gota go sell some cables to real audiophiles now.

 I'm sure out of all this at least couple intelligent people read this (AKA potential customers). So, thanks guys. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Cya!


----------



## gritzcolin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_AAnnyway, thanks for the ruckus guys, was fun but I gota go sell some cables to real audiophiles now.

 I'm sure out of all this at least couple intelligent people read this (AKA potential customers). So, thanks guys. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Cya! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Still can't answer the UL listing question? 

 Also I think anyone intelligent would see your responses to normal questions and run from your snake oil company as fast as possible.


----------



## Akathisia

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *OverlordXenu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Don't you mean egotist?_

 

Please don't slam other members of this board. I respect markl's opinion as someone who has access to gear I will never buy, nor have the means to buy.

 This thread isn't supposed to be a cable debate, I started it with rock solid evidence and experiences. Take a spin on that as you will. Acoustic Chef pretty much gave us no real defense, in fact, he pretty much came right out and told us the cabel is garbage.

 I really don't want this thread deleted, people need to see this.


----------



## Dorito123

I think his rude reactions to people who may or may not purchase one of his products down the road goes hand in hand with the prices he charges people for his products. Screw you and just give me your money. If you choose to not buy anything then your not a real audiophile and I might as well insult you. I know he was bashed pretty good but professional marketing people don't respond that way. His attitude matches his products and prices. He had an opportunity to here to defend his products and chose to participate in name calling instead.


----------



## Acoustic Chef

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Akathisia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Please don't slam other members of this board. I respect markl's opinion as someone who has access to gear I will never buy, nor have the means to buy.

 This thread isn't supposed to be a cable debate, I started it with rock solid evidence and experiences. Take a spin on that as you will. Acoustic Chef pretty much gave us no real defense, in fact, he pretty much came right out and told us the cabel is garbage.

 I really don't want this thread deleted, people need to see this._

 

Na man, the cable's awsome. If you heard it you would know this.

 And by the way I'm not a fan of framing poor little kitty cats, shame on you.


----------



## philodox

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *chesebert* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_maybe we should define 'hand made', 'custom', 'recipe', and 'cable'._

 

VH audio has custom cables built by a cable company and sent to them in spools. Handmade means taking wires, braiding them and adding connectors. Recipe means a known good performing configuration.

 As for the UL certification arguement... who cares?


----------



## colonelkernel8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_AAnnyway, thanks for the ruckus guys, was fun but I gota go sell some cables to real audiophiles now.

 I'm sure out of all this at least couple intelligent people read this (AKA potential customers). So, thanks guys. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Cya! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Real audiophiles? What is that supposed to mean? Right, I guess the accepted vernacular is "gullible audio idiot".

 I hope those "potential customers" who read this learn a few things...and ultimately do not purchase your products.


----------



## OverlordXenu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_AAnnyway, thanks for the ruckus guys, was fun but I gota go sell some cables to real audiophiles now.

 I'm sure out of all this at least couple intelligent people read this (AKA potential customers). So, thanks guys. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Cya! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

So you resort to insults?

 Wow, I really want to buy a VD cable now, their salesmen are so mature, helpful, and down-to-earth.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *philodox* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_As for the UL certification arguement... who cares?_

 

I'm pretty sure my insurance company would.


----------



## SoundGoon

I have been checking this thread almost every time that I have been on head-fi for the past day or so. It is interesting to see who will say what next and is rathering addicting


----------



## troymadison

When you guys keep saying VD, I get it confused with something else.


----------



## 883dave

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *OverlordXenu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes, because Fitz, Monoprice, and Blue Jeans Cable all claim to make cables that sound so much better than anything else and charge $30,000 for them. Those companies and VD are so similar, aren't they?_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *OverlordXenu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Let's see here, BJC et al. aren't trying to "swindle" anyone (they don't make false claims), and I do not work for them, whereas Acoustic Chef works for VD, and VD does make false claims.

 See the difference?_

 

What do they use to judge the claim " to make cables that sound so much better than anything else"

 Could you please provide the model number of your "sound better" meter


----------



## colonelkernel8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *883dave* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What do they use to judge the claim " to make cables that sound so much better than anything else"

 Could you please provide the model number of your "sound better" meter_

 

That was internet sarcasm dave.


----------



## 883dave

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *colonelkernel8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That was internet sarcasm dave._

 

Funny how someone can use a false "sarcastic" claim to show how false an actual false claim is.

 PS did you ever get your ayre disk? If so, notice anything?


----------



## Uncle Erik

Acoustic Chef, there is a way to save face and get new customers, even. Why not apply for UL certification? Thousands of companies do every year with thousands of new products. Why not have Virtual Dynamics stand apart from the rest of the crowd and get UL approval? Be the first. Just applying would earn you a lot of respect.

 Second, why don't you show us what is in the rest of the VD cables? You dared us to buy one and cut it open; I think the factory should show us instead. Further, show us your test gear and explain how you test your products. You only have credibility to gain. That would help business, not hurt it.


----------



## dvw

For Import into Europe, an UL or equivalent certification is required. I am not sure about US. I took a quick look at my PC power cord, it has the UL mark on it. 

 One thing I do know for sure for in the wall installation of power line, you'll need UL certification. And insurance companies also require UL certification.


----------



## furball

No one wants to tear up a $1500 cable. That's what VD is counting on. If he actually showed what goes into those $1500 cables, no one would buy his cables anymore.

 This is the quandary VD has gotten itself into.


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Uncle Erik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Second, why don't you show us what is in the rest of the VD cables? You dared us to buy one and cut it open; I think the factory should show us instead. Further, show us your test gear and explain how you test your products. You only have credibility to gain. That would help business, not hurt it._


----------



## MontyPythizzle

He could just show us him building his higher end cables so he/us would be saving money.

 I work customer support for a large cellular phone company and would NEVER talk to potential customers like this. If they don't like our services I don't talk to them in a negative tone or anything.

 I got to admit though, looks like a nice DIY cable!

 HMM, maybe I should just get some techflex and some water line and cover my existing UL approved power cable for my computer and drop some sawdust (better for isolating those vibrations and heat from reaching the cable...) in there.

 BONUS!!! It is now a woody cable!!! So warm sounding!!!!


----------



## c0mfortably_numb

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *883dave* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What do they use to judge the claim " to make cables that sound so much better than anything else"

 Could you please provide the model number of your "sound better" meter_

 

I know it was meant as sarcasm but I figured I would try to answer anyway...

 Monoprice don't actually claim to be better then anyone, there just made like higher end cables and sell for around the same price as the pack-in throwaways ($2.37 for a 3' RCA cable). There was a review on Home Theater Hi FI about them. And no I don't work for them, as my empty bank account will show, nor do I have any affiliation, nor have I ever reviewed them or received any free products from them.

 Bluejeans, also is a lower priced cable company compared to "boutique" cables was reviewed on Home Theater Hi Fi the thing I like about them, they tell you what there selling, they don't market a bunch of fluff. They clearly state this is the cable we use, this is the connector. If you want it "pretty" they will wrap it in Techflex. Again as above I have no affiliation with Blue Jeans (or Home Theater Hi Fi) I never reviewed there products, nor have I received any free products or discounts from them.


----------



## royalcrown

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Na man, the cable's awsome. If you heard it you would know this.

 And by the way I'm not a fan of framing poor little kitty cats, shame on you._

 

I just don't understand this post. The guy was pretty much defending neutrality in the thread, and now you outright insult him and call him a liar? What basis do you have for him lying? I really doubt he made up the story that his cat destroyed his cable, and as a pet owner I have seen many similar instances when my dog was young (she's 12 years old now and over the "chew/scratch/mess with everything" phase). Especially considering cats, who are infamous for making scratching posts left and right out of things that are bulky and textured, which describe VD cables perfectly. Then again, I shouldn't have to make justifications for this because you have no basis whatsoever for basically slandering a member on this forum. 

 I usually stay out of cable debate forums, and usually just read them. This time, however, it's not about cables, but about your rudeness towards other members of this forum. If you feel like calling someone a liar, at least have SOME sort of substantiation for your claim so you don't sound like an arrogant lowlife. This isn't about cables, this isn't about corporate ethics - this is simply common courtesy and respect.


----------



## n4k33n

Head fi might be a big community, but news of this scam, as egregious and blatantly obvious as your "products" are, (err, garden hoses?) will spread through the community like wildfire. Companies like yours are only kept standing with the support of head-fi. Without head-fi, you have no customer base - there are plenty of other ripoff cable companies that are a lot more established that people can buy from. Excellent job alienating the customer base you desperately *need*. Don't forget it, because you need *US way* more than we need you. It seems pretty early so far to ruin your companies credibility, but you seemed to have found a way.... Its almost like you tried to... Anyway, grow some thicker skin, make your cables nicer next time and pick a new company name and barrel of lies to use before you try again. A tip though, be nicer to your customers, especially the potential ones.

 Anyway, I'm sure Reddit and Digg would get a riot out of this thread. I bet it will even make the front page.


----------



## chesebert

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *n4k33n* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Head fi might be a big community, but news of this scam, as egregious and blatantly obvious as your "products" are, (err, garden hoses?) will spread through the community like wildfire. Companies like yours are only kept standing with the support of head-fi. Without head-fi, you have no customer base - there are plenty of other ripoff cable companies that are a lot more established that people can buy from. Excellent job alienating the customer base you desperately *need*. Don't forget it, because you need *US way* more than we need you. It seems pretty early so far to ruin your companies credibility, but you seemed to have found a way.... Its almost like you tried to... Anyway, grow some thicker skin, make your cables nicer next time and pick a new company name and barrel of lies to use before you try again. A tip though, be nicer to your customers, especially the potential ones.

 Anyway, I'm sure Reddit and Digg would get a riot out of this thread. I bet it will even make the front page._

 

If only VD were so tiny of an operation and really _need_ head-fi to survive. 

 haven't been in this hobby for too long have u


----------



## 883dave

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *n4k33n* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Head fi might be a big community, but news of this scam, as egregious and blatantly obvious as your "products" are, (err, garden hoses?) will spread through the community like wildfire. Companies like yours are only kept standing with the support of head-fi. Without head-fi, you have no customer base - there are plenty of other ripoff cable companies that are a lot more established that people can buy from. Excellent job alienating the customer base you desperately *need*. Don't forget it, because you need *US way* more than we need you. It seems pretty early so far to ruin your companies credibility, but you seemed to have found a way.... Its almost like you tried to... Anyway, grow some thicker skin, make your cables nicer next time and pick a new company name and barrel of lies to use before you try again. A tip though, be nicer to your customers, especially the potential ones.

 Anyway, I'm sure Reddit and Digg would get a riot out of this thread. I bet it will even make the front page._

 


 "Man, in his arrogance, actually believes that the earth would cease to exist if he were not here"


----------



## furball

Sad but true. I think headfi only recently popped onto VD's marketing radar screen. The majority of VD's customers are more into full sized stereo rigs, who frequent forums such as audiogon, audioasylum, etc.

 But never underestimate the power of the internet. Messages do get spread around rather quickly nowadays. This thread may not make a dent in your sales today, or tomorrow, or this month. But a couple of months down the line or even a couple of years down the line, who knows. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *chesebert* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If only VD were so tiny of an operation and really need head-fi to survive. 

 haven't been in this hobby for too long have u 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_


----------



## furball

But surely a cable company would cease operations if people stopped buying their cables.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *883dave* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_"Man, in his arrogance, actually believes that the earth would cease to exist if he were not here"_


----------



## 883dave

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *furball* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_But surely a cable company would cease operations if people stopped buying their cables.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

True, but how many people on Head-fi actually buy moderately expensive cables, say over 500.00 a pop?


----------



## n4k33n

Oh, oops. I'm sorry, with Acoustic Chef's juvenile responses, potentially unsafe product, and outright lies(!), I just assumed it was a new company. I was wrong about that, but regardless.... Welcome to the Internet VD! Transparency and knowledge are the laws of the land on the net. Information proliferates, especially hilarious stuff like this. All the audiophiles that scam companies ripped off for years now have access to objective reviews and info. I'd be willing to bet the days of shooting fish in a barrel are numbered. Anyway, I see this as a victory for the customer. 

 Head-fi results are ranked pretty high on google search results and this is a pretty popular thread, lol.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm going to point at the elephant in the room that no one is mentioning yet. I think this guy has people here in the board who are shilling for him without revealing their business relationship with him to the group. I outed one already. I bet there are more. This guy is a real piece of work.

 Caveat emptor.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

Outed one? You didn't out me, you dope. You do nothing but talk smack. I have no relationship with Virtual Dynamics AT ALL. I received two of their products and think they are excellent sounding products. When I said I had a conversation with the VD rep on Head-Fi, you assume that is had to do with sales when it had to do with nothing of the sort. If you saw the conversation, your would be shoving your foot so far up your mouth.


----------



## Uncle Erik

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *chesebert* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If only VD were so tiny of an operation and really need head-fi to survive. 

 haven't been in this hobby for too long have u 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

Anyone researching for a potential purchase *will* find this thread. Google it yourself. Also, this will be posted to most other audio boards and I've already submitted it to a social discussion site. People find the garden hose angle especially funny.

 Big companies are not immune to scandal, either. Look at what happened to Enron, Ford/Firestone, not to mention many others. I suppose these guys can re-form under a new name and find a different angle to work their "business."


----------



## colonelkernel8

Its unfortunate, but a lot of the people that buy VD's cables are 40-something schmucks who either made a bunch of money off the stock market, or are MBA's who got real lucky. In other words, they are stupid in terms of electronics and will believe anything they are told.

 Anything a forum tells them will not change their mind, because they don't care how much they spend on cables. They don't even use the internet as a research tool.


----------



## yotacowboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *colonelkernel8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Anything a forum tells them will not change their mind_

 

Bingo!


----------



## colonelkernel8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yotacowboy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Bingo!_

 

Taking that statement out of context ruins it. I was not referring to everyone, I was referring to the egotistic morons who make up most of VD's consumer base.


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I do get sent products "free" from time to time by various manufacturers to see if I want to review them. If I don't like it, I send it back. However, if I end up liking it, I have to buy it like anyone else._

 

What publications do you write for?

 Thanks
 Steve


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_AAnnyway, thanks for the ruckus guys, was fun but I gota go_

 

If you were smart, you would have done a slow fade long ago. You've made your bed now. Time to lie in it.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## SoundGoon

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *colonelkernel8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Its unfortunate, but a lot of the people that buy VD's cables are 40-something schmucks who either made a bunch of money off the stock market, or are MBA's who got real lucky. In other words, they are stupid in terms of electronics and will believe anything they are told.

 Anything a forum tells them will not change their mind, because they don't care how much they spend on cables. They don't even use the internet as a research tool._

 

Yikes! Easy does it, it's getting rather vicious in here.


----------



## 883dave

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *colonelkernel8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Its unfortunate, but a lot of the people that buy VD's cables are 40-something schmucks who either made a bunch of money off the stock market, or are MBA's who got real lucky. In other words, they are stupid in terms of electronics and will believe anything they are told.

 Anything a forum tells them will not change their mind, because they don't care how much they spend on cables. They don't even use the internet as a research tool._

 

From the mouths of babes


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *philodox* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_As for the UL certification arguement... who cares?_

 

For an audio cable, no one. For a power cable that's plugged in 24/7, even when you aren't at home, I think there might be quite a few who care. Especially when the manufacturer is dodgy about addressing the issue. Power wiring in homes has to pass inspection and follow code. The same should be true of what you plug into the wall.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## colonelkernel8

The post was meant to get at why this thread is unlikely to change anything. As most of VD's consumer base does not use the internet as a research tool. Do you ever see a certified electrical engineer spending tens of thousands of dollars on a cable?


----------



## ecclesand

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *colonelkernel8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The post was meant to get at why this thread is unlikely to change anything. As most of VD's consumer base does not use the internet as a research tool._

 

Thanks for clarifying that. I'm one of those 40 something schmucks with an MBA. I just don't have money to wipe my butt with or to spend on frivolous things like a $150 PC that's made out of hose and Home Depot house wire. God I love this thread!!!!


----------



## vcoheda

i predict this thread will have ZERO effect on VD cable sales.


----------



## colonelkernel8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ecclesand* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks for clarifying that. I'm one of those 40 something schmucks with an MBA. I just don't have money to wipe my butt with or to spend on frivolous things like a $150 PC that's made out of hose and Home Depot house wire. God I love this thread!!!!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Which is why I said, "An MBA who got lucky"; someone who doesn't really understand the value of a dollar or the value of physics.


----------



## n4k33n

Maybe if the VD flag wavers in this thread increase in numbers, at some point their combined passionate opinions can cancel out engineering fact? Truth is decided by majority rule and gut feelings, right? ....Right guys??  I mean whats with this *science* stuff anyway?? Does your tesla or whatever his name is work for Virtual Dynamics??? Well does he??


----------



## markl

Quote:


 What publications do you write for? 
 

Head-Fi.org: Headphones, iPod earphones, portable audio, MP3 players, high-end audio





 I recently had an article published in Positive Feedback and expect to contribute more there as time goes by.


----------



## markl

Oh, and I'm also outing myself as a schmuck with an MBA.


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *chesebert* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If only VD were so tiny of an operation and really need head-fi to survive._

 

How do you know what kind of operation Virtual Dynamics runs. Are you doing business with them too?

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Outed one? You didn't out me, you dope. You do nothing but talk smack. I have no relationship with Virtual Dynamics AT ALL._

 

Have you ever received any free merchandise from any stereo equipment manufacturer? If so, did you return it after reviewing it like MarkL?

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Head-Fi.org: Headphones, iPod earphones, portable audio, MP3 players, high-end audio I recently had an article published in Positive Feedback and expect to contribute more there as time goes by._

 

Was the equipment for review sent to you as a poster to HeadFi, or as part of the editorial process at Positive Feedback?

 Has anyone else here received free equipment to evaluate and review on this site?

 I'm not asking without being willing to reveal my own situation. I have never worked for an audio equipment manufacturer, distributor or retailer. I've never received free equipment to review on the internet.


----------



## colonelkernel8

I am not saying every person with an MBA is a schmuck. Throw out the whole MBA statement in fact, it was misconstrued (likely my fault). A more accurate way of describing the demographic is a person who has made a lot of money without much effort or ingenuity and as a result does not know the value of a dollar. I was saying that the person who met this criteria was a "schmuck" in my eyes. Furthermore, people who are on this forum are excluded from that demographic because they obviously care about how they spend their money. People who had to work hard for their money would not buy a $10,000 cable.


----------



## slwiser

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Was the equipment for review sent to you as a poster to HeadFi, or as part of the editorial process at Positive Feedback?

 Has anyone else here received free equipment to evaluate and review on this site?

 I'm not asking without being willing to reveal my own situation. I have never worked for an audio equipment manufacturer, distributor or retailer. I've never received free equipment to review on the internet._

 

Full disclosure:

 The only things that I have been given were things offered here before getting them. Back before the iBasso T2 came out they offer five of them for a tryout and I got my PM in in time to get one. I was offered an opportunity to get one of Dr. Xins Reference models after suggesting that he plug a quarter plug into it but I paid him for it instead. I still am waiting on a new final board for it at this time. I got a Virtual Dynamics Power 3 PC free with 30$ shipping for Christmas. Other than that I don't think I can remember anything else.


----------



## 883dave

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *colonelkernel8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The post was meant to get at why this thread is unlikely to change anything. As most of VD's consumer base does not use the internet as a research tool. Do you ever see a certified electrical engineer spending tens of thousands of dollars on a cable?_

 

Did you find all this information the the intraweb thingy? I did a search and was not able to find VD's customer base and their relation to internet searches.

 As for certified electrical engineers spending tens of thousands of dollars on cables??? You might want to RESEARCH the INTERNET for a site called AudiogoN and check there...I seem to remember a few Engineers who buy expensive cables

 And you are right, a bunch of people who do not purchase a product will not change anything

 How do you boycott something you don't buy...do you not not buy it??


----------



## 883dave

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *colonelkernel8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am not saying every person with an MBA is a schmuck. Throw out the whole MBA statement in fact, it was misconstrued (likely my fault). A more accurate way of describing the demographic is a person who has made a lot of money without much effort or ingenuity and as a result does not know the value of a dollar. I was saying that the person who met this criteria was a "schmuck" in my eyes. Furthermore, people who are on this forum are excluded from that demographic because they obviously care about how they spend their money. People who had to work hard for their money would not buy a $10,000 cable._

 

Wow you really have no idea...

 from Wikipedia

 "Schmuck (pejorative), an insulting term"


----------



## markl

Quote:


 How do you know what kind of operation Virtual Dynamics runs. Are you doing business with them too? 
 

 Not to answer for him, but if you look at who they're hiring even right now, you'll see it's not one guy in his basement. I do know they have sales staff, production staff, accounting staff, support staff and management, but that's just from going through the purchase process and dealing with the different people you deal with in the course of completing your sale. There are at *least* a dozen on staff I'd guess probably quite a few more. Not exactly Microsoft, but a nice, thriving small business.


  Quote:


 Was the equipment for review sent to you as a poster to HeadFi, or as part of the editorial process at Positive Feedback? 
 

 Not that I have to answer to you, but I will answer the question-- I've only been with PF for a matter of months and have yet to receive any product as a direct result of that association. I had already purchased at full price and owned the one product whose review appeared in their pages (bought through normal retailer on my own prior to my association with PF, Marantz has no idea who I am or that I was going to write any review for anyone.)

 As for Head-Fi reviews, having built up a reputation over time in the headphone community (going back to headwize days) as someone with ears some people trust and a way with words some people enjoy reading, over time I started to receive review samples from manufacturers for my thoughts. FWIW, my personal policy was, if I didn't like it, I would send it back without public comment. No point wasting my time and energy bad-mouthing something that didn't happen to work for me in my system. If I loved it, I would write a review to alert members to a good product.

 More often than not, I get sent gear by other members just to find out what I think of this headphone or that amp.


----------



## Akathisia

I request that this thread be locked by the moderators, the usual suspects are locked into the same fight as always.

 Acoustic Chef came by and commented, no one else has come by with concerns about the cable they actually disassembled.

 If you want to use this as a reference, stick it in your signature, but please don't keep arguing here. This thread needs to hang around so people can stay informed. But if the personnal insults keep flying, mods will delete it.

 If a mod gets on here, please feel free to PM me.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Have you ever received any free merchandise from any stereo equipment manufacturer? If so, did you return it after reviewing it like MarkL?

 See ya
 Steve_

 

Why would I return it?

 1) Master LE Digital 2.0 cable --- I won in the DIGITAL CABLE CONTEST on their forum for creating a concept piece of artwork for their contest.

 2) Power 3 power cord --- I got because I got VD a sale from my neighbor who placed a $4K order with them.

 I didn't get any items for free. I will post my honest review about any product (and always have) and that has nothing do with whether they send me a free product or not.


----------



## Fitz

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I see, so it's not shilling when you are doing it for a lower priced product. Gotcha._

 

I do not appreciate the suggestion you are making that I would have people shilling for me, especially when I haven't even so much as asked anybody to review my cables.


----------



## dgbiker1

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Akathisia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I request that this thread be locked by the moderators, the usual suspects are locked into the same fight as always.

 Acoustic Chef came by and commented, no one else has come by with concerns about the cable they actually disassembled.

 If you want to use this as a reference, stick it in your signature, but please don't keep arguing here. This thread needs to hang around so people can stay informed. But if the personnal insults keep flying, mods will delete it.

 If a mod gets on here, please feel free to PM me._

 

I think this thread is on the verge of tearing a hole in the space-time continuum. Better lock it before that happens


----------



## spyder187

I've had the David RCA Interconnects and the Revelation Signature RCA interconnect (used for digital). For the David, the music sounded louder, I guess there was more dynamics. As for the Revelation Signature, I did not hear a huge enough difference to justify the cost, plus it didn't help that VD sent me the wrong length of cable and when I returned it, they paid me back via Paypal instead of refunding the money, so Paypal collected a bunch of money both ways. I didn't understand this well because VD loses out on fees when they received the cable, and I lost out on fees when they paid me back, when they could have saved on their fees. Anyways I digress.

 I feel that cables are for those who feel that the cost justifies the difference. If you've got money and a $20,000-100,000 difference, then I guess you could dabble with the $5000 cables. But for most of us normal folk, upgrading our headphones/speakers, etc will make much more of a worthwhile difference imo plus most of us don't have such high end systems either. 

 One of the reasons I've heard for not hearing a substantial difference, is the fact that my system isn't revealing enough, etc. And when you contact them, they will do all they can to say how the cable will blow you away and all that. It's all a part of marketing. If they can get you to believe that you should hear a difference, then placebo effect may kick in and you'll hear one whether you like it or not. 

 The fact that the power cables were shown to be made out of cheap materials should only further justify spending money elsewhere first before putting it into these "little things". Either way, in the end you should enjoy the music coming from your system first and foremost.


----------



## markl

Quote:


 I do not appreciate the suggestion you are making that I would have people shilling for me, especially when I haven't even so much as asked anybody to review my cables. 
 

 Fitz, the point I was making is that it's easy to mistake a happy customer excitedly telling people about their favorite new product for being a paid "shill". That seems to be the assumption among many in this thread being made about anyone who likes VD cables. Look at the accusations flying and the word "shill" being thrown around.

 Yet it's ironic to me that these same people who see a shill under every rock have made their own statements here on this board that could read as shilling for another cable manufacturer themselves. I'm just sarcastically throwing back Mr. Xenu's allegations in his face to show how easily this fallacy can happen and how he himself is victim of it.

 In other words, if he wants to play that game, let's play that game and look at how his own statements might read to someone else. In the end, I, too, have only your word and his word that there is no relationship. If I was a tinfoil hat wearing conspiracy nut like some on this board I would make my own assumptions about you two.

 But I'm not. Understood?


----------



## OverlordXenu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Fitz* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I do not appreciate the suggestion you are making that I would have people shilling for me, especially when I haven't even so much as asked anybody to review my cables._

 

I'm truly sorry for dragging your name into this mess.


----------



## OverlordXenu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Fitz, the point I was making is that it's easy to mistake a happy customer excitedly telling people about their favorite new product for being a paid "shill". That seems to be the assumption among many in this thread being made about anyone who likes VD cables. Look at the accusations flying and the word "shill" being thrown around.

 Yet it's ironic to me that these same people who see a shill under every rock have made their own statements here on this board that could read as shilling for another cable manufacturer themselves. I'm just sarcastically throwing back Mr. Xenu's allegations in his face to show how easily this fallacy can happen and how he himself is victim of it.

 In other words, if he wants to play that game, let's play that game and look at how his own statements might read to someone else. In the end, I, too, have only your word and his word that there is no relationship. If I was a tinfoil hat wearing conspiracy nut like some on this board I would make my own assumptions about you two.

 But I'm not. Understood?_

 

I only ever called Acoustic Chef a shill, which, ya know, he technically is.


----------



## yotacowboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *colonelkernel8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_People who had to work hard for their money would not buy a $10,000 cable._

 

Keep diggin! you've got a good sized hole going there.


----------



## yotacowboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Akathisia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Acoustic Chef came by and commented, no one else has come by with concerns about the cable they actually disassembled._

 

So, what's your point again?


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Do you really want to know what a hospital grade cable is? It's simply cable that has its male nickel plated so when they wash the walls, solution won't drip and corrode the terminates. 
 Now how conductive is nickel?_

 

Hospital grade is more than that, the cables and terminal have to pass stress and mechanical tests, and power rating tests, they are sometimes prepared for good EMI and RF rejection, as they are supposed to power devices in which a failure will cause a death...Aslo they are UL rated...

 It is not only about the nickel, every computer cord is nickel plated and none of them are hospital grade rated 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 BTW the nickel is not that bad as a conductor, it was used for decades of glory in audio technology....See any vintage amp and see if they use gold plated conectors, or jacks, mainly all of them are nickel plated. And most fo them sound far better than many made nowadays with glorified gold plated terminals, the sound is not on the plated of the jack, I doubt you will hear any difference between a nickel plated and silver plated jack...


----------



## fraseyboy

Gah. This has got out of hand.

 Gone from 'VD Makes there cables out of cheap materials!' into 'OMG QUICK! Unplug your VD cables before your house burns down!!!' and 'VD is a dodgy company who must die!'. Soon there'll be a mob with torches going to burn down the Virtual Dynamics factory...

 Sounds fun.


----------



## MontyPythizzle

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MontyPythizzle* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_He could just show us him building his higher end cables so he/us would be saving money.

 I work customer support for a large cellular phone company and would NEVER talk to potential customers like this. If they don't like our services I don't talk to them in a negative tone or anything.

 I got to admit though, looks like a nice DIY cable!

 HMM, maybe I should just get some techflex and some water line and cover my existing UL approved power cable for my computer and drop some sawdust (better for isolating those vibrations and heat from reaching the cable...) in there.

 BONUS!!! It is now a woody cable!!! So warm sounding!!!!_

 


 I am now selling these woody cables, if anyone wants to buy one they can PM me, beware, I didn't have any net jacket rolling around so they are EXTREEEEME Green and Yellow right now (just what I had literally around the house in the back yard). They are filled with ONLY the BEST wood that I found in my garage. I hope they don't notice the washer not working, I cut the cord off of it to make the ELITEE1337 PUR KOPP3R wiring.

 I spray painted the connectors gold with platinum tips for THE BEST CONDUKTIVITY!!!!!


----------



## sacd lover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 Of course that is not applicable to all the cases we see, and mainly the majority of the portable amps we see nowadays are just glorified C-Moy's...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

So, you state the majority of the portable amps we see nowadays are just glorified C-Moy's ....

 So you are agreeing with me? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 That is exactly my point. Many portables have $40-50 parts in them, maybe less .... and sell for $300-$350. I bought a Pint for $110 shipped that was definitely better than the highly touted "name" portables I had heard costing $300+ .... and the Pint's builder obviously made money.


----------



## goldenratiophi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MontyPythizzle* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am now selling these woody cables, if anyone wants to buy one they can PM me, beware, I didn't have any net jacket rolling around so they are EXTREEEEME Green and Yellow right now (just what I had literally around the house in the back yard). They are filled with ONLY the BEST wood that I found in my garage. I hope they don't notice the washer not working, I cut the cord off of it to make the ELITEE1337 PUR KOPP3R wiring.

 I spray painted the connectors gold with platinum tips for THE BEST CONDUKTIVITY!!!!!_

 

I was skeptical until you turned on caps lock. Now I'll buy 10!

 this is my favorite thread ever.


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Not to answer for him, but if you look at who they're hiring even right now, you'll see it's not one guy in his basement._

 

That wasn't what I was getting at, and understand that I'm not criticizing you for the way you've handled your reviewing. You haven't done anything wrong at all. My concern is that if manufacturers are giving you equipment to review on Head-Fi, they may be giving free equipment to other people whose standards of disclosure might not be as forthcoming as yours. Head-Fi has a very good policy when it comes to identifying representatives of companies, and it would be very bad for the community here if some less than honest companies tried to circumvent that policy by setting up shill posters.

 Advertisements should be advertisements. Reviews should be reviews. The reason hifi magazines suck so bad today is because those two things haven't been kept separate. I'd hate to see that happen to this forum.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_More often than not, I get sent gear by other members just to find out what I think of this headphone or that amp._

 

That is entirely different than a manufacturer lending or giving away equipment. Nothing wrong with that at all.

 Thanks for your honesty
 Steve


----------



## colonelkernel8

Only thing I have ever been given free on this forum is some solder and some solder wick.


----------



## Acoustic Chef

*Brass*






*Bronze*





*Fines*





*Sand blast*






*Master LE!*





*Busy bees*





*The almighty*





*Our very own Linipur conductors.*


















*Click here to see all*

 .


----------



## bigshot

Give it up, man. Get someone else to speak for your company.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## goldenratiophi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*Busy bees*



_

 

I've got that same water bottle, except blue!


----------



## IPodPJ

Off the topic of negativity for a moment.... last night I was slightly loopy on sleep meds (I was having trouble falling asleep) and I decided to mod my Virtual Dynamics power cord and digital cable. After I did it, I wasn't sure that it sounded much different, maybe a little more detailed -- but I was loopy and couldn't really focus.

 So tonight I get home from work and turn on my system and I am just blown away by the detail extension from treble to bass, and even moreso from the soundstaging and imaging. Now I know what you're thinking... placebo, right? Well I thought of that. I even completely removed the mod (yes, it's completely reversible) and I couldn't even stand listening to it. All the detail was gone and the soundstage completely closed in.

 Aside from my ears telling me that it sounds much better, my amp is receiving a physically different signal. The Opera uses a manual relay that clicks back and forth when it doesn't detect a digital signal. When there is a zero bit signal, the relay will click over. Since I performed this mod, when that happens the relay is clicking much faster than it did before.

 Now what is this mod you ask? Well that's the funny part, and even funnier to look at. I've actually experimented with this mod by doing it about ten different ways and finally found what I believe to be the best configuration. Modding the power cord isn't nearly as significant as doing it to the digital cable.

 Ok ok.. so what is this mod? It's nothing more than wrapping the cable with tinfoil... yes, tinfoil. I'm still playing around with different lengths and number of wraps. When I find the method I like the most I will post how it's done. But like I said I've already tried about 10 different methods and I'll do about 5 or 10 more.

 The differences are that incredible that I had to finally post this after much reservation because I know the eye rolls and laughs that I will receive now. But it shouldn't be so hard to believe since cables are all made with different dielectrics and shieldings anyway.

 Now to let the tinfoil burn in.


----------



## Roam

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*Our very own Linipur conductors.*




_

 

Is it just me or do those Linipur conductors bear a striking resemblance to RG-6 coax cable?


----------



## sejarzo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_BTW the nickel is not that bad as a conductor, it was used for decades of glory in audio technology....See any vintage amp and see if they use gold plated conectors, or jacks, mainly all of them are nickel plated._

 

Most "gold" connectors are actually gold plated over hard nickel, over brass or copper. Gold plating directly on brass or copper isn't very durable. The gold adds some resistance to oxidation and potential problems down the line.....but if you look at most pro gear in studios, you will find nickel rather than gold.


----------



## jgonino

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 Ok ok.. so what is this mod? It's nothing more than wrapping the cable with tinfoil... yes, tinfoil. I'm still playing around with different lengths and number of wraps. When I find the method I like the most I will post how it's done. But like I said I've already tried about 10 different methods and I'll do about 5 or 10 more.

 The differences are that incredible that I had to finally post this after much reservation because I know the eye rolls and laughs that I will receive now. But it shouldn't be so hard to believe since cables are all made with different dielectrics and shieldings anyway.

 Now to let the tinfoil burn in. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 






 I just fell out of my chair. You cannot be serious!

 We need pictures!


----------



## goldenratiophi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ok ok.. so what is this mod? It's nothing more than wrapping the cable with tinfoil... yes, tinfoil._

 

No kidding; I wrapped my computer in tinfoil and the CD drive started printing money!


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jgonino* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_





 I just fell out of my chair. You cannot be serious!

 We need pictures!_

 

I'm so serious I about had a heart attack when I took the foil off and it lost the quality. Believe me, I'm just as stunned as you are. I will take pictures later. I don't know if its having interaction with the magnets on the cable or what it's doing.

 The current configuration is as follows:
 Long pieces of foil that wrapped around the cable that go from magnet to magnet, but only half way around the magnet of the cable on the bottom (the end that plugs into your source)... about 10 wraps around the cable is the best configuration so far... its the long Reynolds foil, about 18" wide, and the amount i pull out of the box is about 12", and i need two of those pieces to wrap the cable fully from magnet to magnet. The foil pieces intersect in the middle and only overlap by about 1/2". Make sure you wrap the foil as tight as you can, and after you wrap it, squeeze it tight to the cable.

 Imaging and soundstaging are virtually flawless now. I have a great IASCA sound quality competition test CD (made by TELARC Digital for the 2001-2002 competitions) which I should make copies of for everyone. It's probably the best system evaluation disc I've used.


----------



## Acoustic Chef

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Off the topic of negativity for a moment.... last night I was slightly loopy on sleep meds (I was having trouble falling asleep) and I decided to mod my Virtual Dynamics power cord and digital cable. After I did it, I wasn't sure that it sounded much different, maybe a little more detailed -- but I was loopy and couldn't really focus.

 So tonight I get home from work and turn on my system and I am just blown away by the detail extension from treble to bass, and even moreso from the soundstaging and imaging. Now I know what you're thinking... placebo, right? Well I thought of that. I even completely removed the mod (yes, it's completely reversible) and I couldn't even stand listening to it. All the detail was gone and the soundstage completely closed in.

 Aside from my ears telling me that it sounds much better, my amp is receiving a physically different signal. The Opera uses a manual relay that clicks back and forth when it doesn't detect a digital signal. When there is a zero bit signal, the relay will click over. Since I performed this mod, when that happens the relay is clicking much faster than it did before.

 Now what is this mod you ask? Well that's the funny part, and even funnier to look at. I've actually experimented with this mod by doing it about ten different ways and finally found what I believe to be the best configuration. Modding the power cord isn't nearly as significant as doing it to the digital cable.

 Ok ok.. so what is this mod? It's nothing more than wrapping the cable with tinfoil... yes, tinfoil. I'm still playing around with different lengths and number of wraps. When I find the method I like the most I will post how it's done. But like I said I've already tried about 10 different methods and I'll do about 5 or 10 more.

 The differences are that incredible that I had to finally post this after much reservation because I know the eye rolls and laughs that I will receive now. But it shouldn't be so hard to believe since cables are all made with different dielectrics and shieldings anyway.

 Now to let the tinfoil burn in. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 


 Cool 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Quick question, how did you burn-in the LE? Did you let your system just run 24/7?


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Cool 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Quick question, how did you burn-in the LE? Did you let your system just run 24/7?_

 

Yup. For about 4 days with mostly music, some pink noise.

 You've got to try this mod. If your system responds anything like my system does to it, your balls will do backflips (and the next generation of VD cables will be wrapped in foil).


----------



## Acoustic Chef

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yup. For about 4 days with mostly music, some pink noise.

 You've got to try this mod. If your system responds anything like my system does to it, your balls will do backflips (and the next generation of VD cables will be wrapped in foil)._

 

Now you need to try some stabilant 22 on your headphone jack.
HOME PAGE -- STABILANT


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Now you need to try some stabilant 22 on your headphone jack.
HOME PAGE -- STABILANT_

 

Yeah, looks interesting. I just have a problem with doing anything that can potentially damage my equipment and void my warranty. At least with something like the tinfoil mod, it's completely reversible, won't harm the product in any way, and won't void the manufacturer's warranty -- and it basically costs nothing!


----------



## Riboge

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *883dave* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wow you really have no idea...

 from Wikipedia

 "Schmuck (pejorative), an insulting term"_

 

"Schmuck" is a Yiddish word translated literally as "penis". It has come to be a pejorative connoting aggression and mindlessness or insensitivity in American slang as a result. The use of and inaccuracy about this word here typifies all cable discussions on Head-Fi, which do seem to emanate more from that organ than the brain.


----------



## colonelkernel8

I apologize for the inappropriate vernacular. I suppose a more fitting term is "Idiot". That is all completely aside from the point. The general description was for someone who doesn't know the value of a dollar, I wasn't trying to define "schmuck", I was trying to define the kind of person who buys VD cables. Schmuck was just meant to add spice to it. Can we just move on? How many posts have to go on about how I made mistakes my description of VD's major consumer base.


----------



## Acoustic Chef

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yeah, looks interesting. I just have a problem with doing anything that can potentially damage my equipment and void my warranty. At least with something like the tinfoil mod, it's completely reversible, won't harm the product in any way, and won't void the manufacturer's warranty -- and it basically costs nothing! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Well I've been using the stuff with zero problems, same goes for Rick. I highly recommend you check it ou, but ya use at your own risk.


----------



## colonelkernel8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
Give it up, man. Get someone else to speak for your company.

 See ya
 Steve

 

Let something other then your ass speak for you?_

 

Now that is the reply I would expect from a respectable representative of a company trying to sell their product to this forum's user base.


----------



## hempcamp

Did someone say something about a house of cards? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 --Chris


----------



## colonelkernel8

You can see in my quote Acoustic Chef's initial response to you bigshot (post 237) before he edited it.


----------



## MontyPythizzle

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *goldenratiophi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I was skeptical until you turned on caps lock. Now I'll buy 10!

 this is my favorite thread ever._

 

Don't worry, here are Virtualy Dynamically have a warranty, if you do not like our sound signature, which I might add, sounds GREAT!!! we will just return your money and you keep the cables.
 Our SUPER ENERGEE line of power cable interconnects are guaranteed to own your face!!!!! And we are 1337 certified which means we play no games when constructing your cables!!!!

 Also, we have THE BEST!!!! customer service and a helpful representative who is also the PWNER and manufacturer of the cables.

 Our "woodied" power interconnects are guaranteed to out do any of your standards, and other cables you own.

 And to be honest, we do not make fun of our customers.

 Do not be underestimated by the power of our cables, LITERALLY!!!!

 We WILL turn your 1990 Teac tape player into a CD player with our power interconnects. Guarant33d.


----------



## infinitesymphony

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Now you need to try some stabilant 22 on your headphone jack.
HOME PAGE -- STABILANT_

 

Whooooa... That page seriously took me back to 1995.

 Netscape, Corel, color dithered GIFs...


 ***

*iPodPJ*, be careful with those tin foil modifications... Soon enough, you'll be hearing night and day differences with ERS paper. Then comes the too extreme tweaking.


----------



## c0mfortably_numb

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *infinitesymphony* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*iPodPJ*, be careful with those tin foil modifications... Soon enough, you'll be hearing night and day differences with ERS paper. Then comes the too extreme tweaking. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Such as a tin foil hat to improve headphone dynamics, & block unwanted vibrations. :Þ


----------



## chesebert

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *infinitesymphony* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Whooooa... That page seriously took me back to 1995.

 Netscape, Corel, color dithered GIFs...


 ***

*iPodPJ*, be careful with those tin foil modifications... Soon enough, you'll be hearing night and day differences with ERS paper. Then comes the too extreme tweaking. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I suddenly miss Patrik...where is he?? we need his guidance through this tough time.


----------



## Akathisia

Wow. Check out the VD Wikipedia article.

Virtual Dynamics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *c0mfortably_numb* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Such as a tin foil hat to improve headphone dynamics, & block unwanted vibrations. :Þ_

 

LOL. I knew that would be said sooner or later. What actually got me to make the post when I did was when Markl said the words "tinfoil hat conspiracy nut" so then I figured what the hell. I was going to wait until tomorrow but why hold out when so many of you could try the mod tonight and see how it works for you.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *infinitesymphony* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*iPodPJ*, be careful with those tin foil modifications... Soon enough, you'll be hearing night and day differences with ERS paper. Then comes the too extreme tweaking. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 






 I won't open my equipment and go that far. But I do remember the pictures of his cables wrapped in ERS paper. These tinfoil modded ones look just as funny. It looks like I have a wrapped Dodger Dog connecting my tranport to my amp. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The only thing I would put inside my amp possibly would be a hi-fi fuse, but that's it. I won't do anything that voids a warranty.

 Now try the tinfoil mod!!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 If your cables are easy to get to, it will take you 5 - 10 minutes to do this. If you hear no difference, it will take you 2 minutes to undo it.

 I have no idea what kind of difference it will make with a digital interconnect sans magnet since I haven't tried it on my Cobalt yet. But if you do have a VD digital interconnect with magnets, I am almost positive you will hear as much of a difference in your own system. I also have no idea what kind of difference it will make with your analog connections. And I'm not sure if it's doing much of anything on the power cord. But the digital cable tinfoil mod is going to be the latest craze!


----------



## Akathisia

Someone should volunteer to take this cable in, replace the wire and connectors with top quality units, refill the tube with a non-conductive material (I would feel much safer), and send it to someone who has a 6th Anniversary Power 3 for review (I would actually like to send it to Markl, I believe he would be the best candidate for neutrality).

 I think there are a few proponents of VD cables here who could give an unbiased review. If I happen into any extra money anytime soon, I will order some parts and whip up this tasty acoustic delight myself.

 This post is entirely serious. Please don't rip this post apart.


----------



## Uncle Erik

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Now try the tinfoil mod!!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 If your cables are easy to get to, it will take you 5 - 10 minutes to do this. If you hear no difference, it will take you 2 minutes to undo it._

 

Try grounding the tinfoil and see what happens. Not joking; if the foil is picking up EMI, grounding it might lead to further changes. Shouldn't hurt anything, either.


----------



## infinitesymphony

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Akathisia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Someone should volunteer to take this cable in, replace the wire and connectors with top quality units, refill the tube with a non-conductive material (I would feel much safer)..._

 

Err... If you replace all of those components, what's left? The tube?


----------



## c0mfortably_numb

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Akathisia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Someone should volunteer to take this cable in, replace the wire and connectors with top quality units, refill the tube with a non-conductive material (I would feel much safer), and send it to someone who has a 6th Anniversary Power 3 for review (I would actually like to send it to Markl, I believe he would be the best candidate for neutrality).

 I think there are a few proponents of VD cables here who could give an unbiased review. If I happen into any extra money anytime soon, I will order some parts and whip up this tasty acoustic delight myself.

 This post is entirely serious. Please don't rip this post apart._

 

Beach sand should be neutral, and may even increase the "airyness" in the sound stage


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Uncle Erik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Try grounding the tinfoil and see what happens. Not joking; if the foil is picking up EMI, grounding it might lead to further changes. Shouldn't hurt anything, either._

 

Ok. I will.

 Actually, I think thats what the foil might be doing. Just like the magnets on the cable are supposed to create a field that accelerates the electron flow, I believe the following could be happening:

 1) By wrapping the foil from magnet to magnet, it is widening the field somehow and accelerating the electron flow even further.

 More likely:
 2) By wrapping the foil from magnet to magnet, the stray EMI all around the cables are gathering in a field around the cable, accelerating the electron flow via magnetic induction. (There was a recent article in Popular Science about Wireless electricity using magnetic induction at a given frequency.) If this is the case, depending on the levels of EMI floating around you might experience variable results during your listening session.

 The workaround for future generations of cable:
 If in fact #2 of the above is what's happening, it would make sense why a certain cable company has power supplies attached to their cables. This would provide the benefit of the foil without the EMI uncertainty factor.


----------



## infinitesymphony

Wouldn't a properly shielded cable have the same (or better) effect compared to wrapping tin-foil around relatively unshielded wires?


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *infinitesymphony* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wouldn't a properly shielded cable have the same (or better) effect compared to wrapping tin-foil around relatively unshielded wires?_

 

Well I would assume the Master LE 2.0 is properly shielded. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 And the foil dramatically enhances it, possibly by counteracting the effects of the shielding if it is in fact pulling EMI into it or using magnetic inductance to achieve the results.

 Just guesses, I have no idea what is happening, only the end result.

 One other addition to the sonic benefits that I've noticed: instrument decay is incredible. You feel like your listening to analog, not digital.


----------



## akwok

Subscribing to a legendary thread.


----------



## Edwood

LOL, how did I miss this thread? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Anyways a few serious comments before I start posting pics of pretzels...

*#1. Re: The Garden Hose. *
 If I'm seeing it correctly, it's not actually garden hose. Looks like Reinforced Polyurethane Tubing to me. Which is used in everything from the food industry to certain chemicals. You can buy it pretty much at any hardware store. But it does cost more than simple irrigation hose.

Urebrade® Reinforced Polyurethane Tubing - US Plastic Corporation






*#2. Re: Strain Relief.*
 This pic alarms me the most.





 If the OP hasn't closed it up yet can you remove the wires from the strain relief and see if the insulation has been broken through to the bare conductors? Whether or not this cable would even pass UL certification, I do not know, but I wouldn't personally like my power wires to have the hot and neutral lines crushed next to each other, that's a short circuit and fire waiting to happen. Although it's difficult to see in the pic. I would prefer that the hot and neutral lines be farther away from each other in the strain relief clamp, with at least the ground line in between them.

*#3. Re: UL Listing.*

 UL listing, much like USDA meat ratings is a *voluntary* certification. It is not required by law. (although the USDA meat rating may not be a good comparison because it refers to food quality, not just safety.) Just because a product is not UL listed does not mean it is inherently unsafe. However some insurance policies may not cover damages caused by fires from non UL listed components. 

What is UL listing?
Underwriters Laboratories - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*#3. Re: Acoustic Chef's responses in this thread.*

 I think you could have handled your responses better in this thread. Sure there are some pretty heated, directed, and even downright insulting remarks in this thread, but in the end you have done your company and your products a disservice by slinging the mud around as well here. I choose not to get involved in a lot of cable discussions like this one, but this thread has stood out quite a bit.

 -Ed


----------



## jgonino

Edwood has spoken! 

 Thanks for summing everything up for us Ed, it was really getting crazy in here.


----------



## Acoustic Chef

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jgonino* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Edwood has spoken! 

 Thanks for summing everything up for us Ed, it was really getting crazy in here._

 

Yep, fun fun fun.. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Now that the water's calm, you have any questions about our cables and their designs, feel free.


----------



## IPodPJ

I'm still mezmerized by this "tinfoil turkey neck mod". (The bend in the cable looks like a turkey neck. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) I can't take my headphones off.

 Did you try this yet, Chef?

 I'll take pics tomorrow. I was too busy experimenting and listening to take them off my equipment to photograph them. But they look like what you'd expect cables to look like wrapped in tinfoil.


----------



## Acoustic Chef

Yup
 Check it out.









 Copper tin braid grounded over mag with dialectic and SUPER ferrite shields.


----------



## IPodPJ

Well okay, show off. But that's not even close to what I did. The foil covers a 2 foot section of the cable.

 How come the connectors on that cable are different than the ones on mine? They look easier to deal with. Are yours older ones or a newer model to replace the existing ones?


----------



## Akathisia

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Edwood* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If the OP hasn't closed it up yet can you remove the wires from the strain relief and see if the insulation has been broken through to the bare conductors?_

 

I will take pictures tonight.


----------



## markl

Quote:


 Someone should volunteer to take this cable in, replace the wire and connectors with top quality units, refill the tube with a non-conductive material (I would feel much safer), and send it to someone who has a 6th Anniversary Power 3 for review (I would actually like to send it to Markl, I believe he would be the best candidate for neutrality).

 I think there are a few proponents of VD cables here who could give an unbiased review. If I happen into any extra money anytime soon, I will order some parts and whip up this tasty acoustic delight myself. 
 

 Save your efforts, ******-bag. 

 Do a search of the on-line and print audio review mags, you'll be shocked to discover it's not just markl that likes these cables. You'll find a ton of glowing reviews, happy customers, etc. Their continued growth and expansion at the level they are (quite large for a cable company) is also indicative of a happy customer base that keeps coming back.


----------



## gritzcolin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Save your efforts, ******-bag. 

 Do a search of the on-line and print audio review mags, you'll be shocked to discover it's not just markl that likes these cables. You'll find a ton of glowing reviews, happy customers, etc. Their continued growth and expansion at the level they are (quite large for a cable company) is also indicative of a happy customer base that keeps coming back._

 

Wow the like one guy in the thread that defended you and said stop bashing you and the Chef for liking the cables you are calling a ******-bag? That is top rate!


----------



## markl

Yeah, what a peach. Read what he typed, it's the epitome of ******-baggery.


----------



## OverlordXenu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Save your efforts, ******-bag. 

 Do a search of the on-line and print audio review mags, you'll be shocked to discover it's not just markl that likes these cables. You'll find a ton of glowing reviews, happy customers, etc. Their continued growth and expansion at the level they are (quite large for a cable company) is also indicative of a happy customer base that keeps coming back._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yeah, what a peach. Read what he typed, it's the epitome of ******-baggery._

 

That's totally uncalled for. I find it interesting how discussion has actually been pretty civil, up to this point.

 Edit: You missed part of his post.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Akathisia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Someone should volunteer to take this cable in, replace the wire and connectors with top quality units, refill the tube with a non-conductive material (I would feel much safer), and send it to someone who has a 6th Anniversary Power 3 for review (I would actually like to send it to Markl, I believe he would be the best candidate for neutrality).

 I think there are a few proponents of VD cables here who could give an unbiased review. If I happen into any extra money anytime soon, I will order some parts and whip up this tasty acoustic delight myself.

*This post is entirely serious. Please don't rip this post apart.*_


----------



## markl

Quote:


 I find it interesting how discussion has actually been pretty civil, up to this point. 
 






 My sides are aching. This coming from _you_ after all your posts in this thread. Hilarious!


----------



## markl

Quote:


 You missed part of his post. 
 

 No i didn't, but you missed this part of his post:

 "Let's make an upgraded Power 3, we'll call it a 6th Aniversary (giggle-giggle), and send it to that rube, markl, who will surely love it because he's such a dupe, LOL." 

 "Oh, This post is entirely serious. Please don't rip this post apart."

 Yeah, right. 

 Akathisia should apologize for that. If he does, I would consider doing the same.


----------



## Akathisia

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Save your efforts, ******-bag. 

 Do a search of the on-line and print audio review mags, you'll be shocked to discover it's not just markl that likes these cables. You'll find a ton of glowing reviews, happy customers, etc. Their continued growth and expansion at the level they are (quite large for a cable company) is also indicative of a happy customer base that keeps coming back._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yeah, what a peach. Read what he typed, it's the epitome of ******-baggery._

 

I suggested you because your the only experienced cable reviewer we have here. I was in no way indicating that you are the only happy VD customer. 

 This is a perfect example of how bent out of shape people can get over misunderstandings on this site. I thought this was a place to share discoveries, not rip each other to pieces.

 I refuse to apologize, I made no error or accusation and I have no spite or agendas in my posts in this thread.

 I'll post pics of what Edwood requested, but after that I'm done with this thread.


----------



## Wmcmanus

I'm going to leave this thread alone and not delete any posts. 

 I would simply ask that we (meaning all parties involved as well as those that are not involved) agree to move on and get back to a productive discussion. 

 If there are any side discussions or apology exchanges that need to take place, I'd ask that you do so via PM. Should a happy ending result from that, then the lovebirds can report back about how they kissed and made up.


----------



## gritzcolin

deleted didn't see moderators post just before.


----------



## MontyPythizzle

HAY GAIZ, I got the TOS'd Wiki article. Wonder who posted this:
Virtual Dynamics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 ??

 Brings their company to a new low to advertise on Wikipedia. I think I might as well make a proper wiki article, and somehow link to this thread....


----------



## markl

Quote:


 I think I might as well make a proper wiki article, and somehow link to this thread.... 
 

 Yeah, because _you're_ the expert.


----------



## philodox

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_For an audio cable, no one. For a power cable that's plugged in 24/7, even when you aren't at home, I think there might be quite a few who care. Especially when the manufacturer is dodgy about addressing the issue. Power wiring in homes has to pass inspection and follow code. The same should be true of what you plug into the wall._

 

Good point, didn't think of it that way.


----------



## MontyPythizzle

I updated the VD Wiki article.
Virtual Dynamics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## MontyPythizzle

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yeah, because you're the expert._

 

Well, at least I can quote on message boards.
 Besides, you do not need to be an expert to see what their company is trying accomplish, and how they do it.


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Now you need to try some stabilant 22 on your headphone jack._

 

Why do I feel like I'm watching a puppet show / infomerical?

 This guy is absolutely shameless.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *colonelkernel8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You can see in my quote Acoustic Chef's initial response to you bigshot (post 237) before he edited it._

 

He must have realized that he was just proving my point what a lousy spokesman he is for his company. He must own that jerry rigged garage full of wires himself. No employer would let an employee behave like this in public.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## The Monkey

I'm curious: what substantiation does Virtual Dynamics rely on for its advertising claims? I have the same question as to other cable manufacturers.

 N.B. consumer testimonials are not substantiation.


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well I would assume the Master LE 2.0 is properly shielded._

 

Quote of the day!

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm still mezmerized by this "tinfoil turkey neck mod"._

 

Another quote of the day! This thread is golden!

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## MontyPythizzle

Awesome! The Wiki article was marked for deletion!!
 ....


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Now that the water's calm, you have any questions about our cables and their designs, feel free._

 

Stand by the phone and hold your breath. Go ahead... keep holding it...

 <door slam>

 <muffled trailing off into the distance>

 ...keep holding it... keep...


----------



## dvw

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ok. I will.

 Actually, I think thats what the foil might be doing. Just like the magnets on the cable are supposed to create a field that accelerates the electron flow, I believe the following could be happening:

 1) By wrapping the foil from magnet to magnet, it is widening the field somehow and accelerating the electron flow even further.

 More likely:
 2) By wrapping the foil from magnet to magnet, the stray EMI all around the cables are gathering in a field around the cable, accelerating the electron flow via magnetic induction. (There was a recent article in Popular Science about Wireless electricity using magnetic induction at a given frequency.) If this is the case, depending on the levels of EMI floating around you might experience variable results during your listening session.

 The workaround for future generations of cable:
 If in fact #2 of the above is what's happening, it would make sense why a certain cable company has power supplies attached to their cables. This would provide the benefit of the foil without the EMI uncertainty factor._

 

Try Google Faraday Cage, and EMI ferrite. Aluminum foil are non-magnetic. So what you have constructed is a Faraday cage. However for a Farady cage to operate properly, the shield needed to be grounded.
 The magnet used on the cable is to reduce emission. It is also used in some power supply cable to reduce emission from the switching power supply. These are part of the FCC requirement.

 One of the great test for RFI/EMI is to use your cell phone. Just call someone and the put your phone along the cable, connectors and equipment. The interference will sound like a noise, not reduced high or low. It is very distinctive. If you don't hear anything different, then you don't have any problem.
 You can do the same test with cheap powered PC speaker. You can definitely hear a noise coming through.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dvw* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Try Google Faraday Cage, and EMI ferrite. Aluminum foil are non-magnetic. So what you have constructed is a Faraday cage. However for a Farady cage to operate properly, the shield needed to be grounded.
 The magnet used on the cable is to reduce emission. It is also used in some power supply cable to reduce emission from the switching power supply. These are part of the FCC requirement.

 One of the great test for RFI/EMI is to use your cell phone. Just call someone and the put your phone along the cable, connectors and equipment. The interference will sound like a noise, not reduced high or low. It is very distinctive. If you don't hear anything different, then you don't have any problem.
 You can do the same test with cheap powered PC speaker. You can definitely hear a noise coming through._

 

Very cool. Thanks. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I will try some of those tests.


----------



## c0mfortably_numb

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MontyPythizzle* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I would maybe consider 16/14AWG for my main speakers._

 

Not to derail the thread, but for speakers, even the cheap Insignias that I run I would recommend a minimum of 12 Gauge, but personally run 10 gauge. You can find Beldon 5000UE (12 gauge) for 58 cents a foot, or 5T00UP (10 gauge) for 85 cents a foot. At those prices why skimp


----------



## furball

Monoprice has even better prices. I just bought a 100ft spool 12 gauge speaker wire, cost me $24, but you have to terminate them yourself though.


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *c0mfortably_numb* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Not to derail the thread, but for speakers, even the cheap Insignias that I run I would recommend a minimum of 12 Gauge, but personally run 10 gauge. You can find Beldon 5000UE (12 gauge) for 58 cents a foot, or 5T00UP (10 gauge) for 85 cents a foot. At those prices why skimp 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_


----------



## markl

ecclesand, perhaps you don't come often enough to this forum to see how it's degenerated. There were never any issues in here before a certain cadre of malcontents made it their home away from home. The gloves came off in here ages ago, sorry to say. Reminding you that "they started it" may seem a weak defense, but there it is. There can be no doubt from any imaprtial readers of these forums, which camp is the more aggressive, more negative, and more insulting than the other. I decided a while back to start responding in kind so they can (maybe) start to see what they themselves are doing in here, maybe "shock the conscience" (if they have one) so to speak.

 That one silly insult is *nothing* in my book compared to constantly having your reputation/honor/trustworthiness, built up over years and years of being active in the community becaoming a fairly trusted source for good information, be trashed by a few trolls-come-lately who know a lot less than they think they do, and have more time than knowledge.

 As for Mr. Akathisia, in discussing things off-line, we have agreed that sometimes what you type and what you mean can be two different things as well as what was typed and was read. I think we're cool now, but I'll speak for myself.


----------



## c0mfortably_numb

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *furball* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Monoprice has even better prices. I just bought a 100ft spool 12 gauge speaker wire, cost me $24, but you have to terminate them yourself though._

 

Yea they have great deals, as for termination just keep them raw 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (yet another thread that would cause much debate)


----------



## Akathisia

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_As for Mr. Akathisia, in discussing things off-line, we have agreed that sometimes what you type and what you mean can be two different things as well as what was typed and was read. I think we're cool now, but I'll speak for myself. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

No hard feelings between markl and I. We took the discussion out of this thread, and away from public view, as Wmcmanus requested. I think everyone else should heed our mods words, or this thread will get closed.


----------



## furball

Actually that's just what I was thinking. Even though I bought 2 pairs of banana plugs along with the speaker wires, if it turns out to be too much of a hassle to terminate the wires, I may just end up keeping those wires naked.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *c0mfortably_numb* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yea they have great deals, as for termination just keep them raw 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (yet another thread that would cause much debate)_


----------



## Wmcmanus

Here's what I said a couple of pages ago in case anyone missed it:

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Wmcmanus* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm going to leave this thread alone and not delete any posts. 

 I would simply ask that we (meaning all parties involved as well as those that are not involved) agree to move on and get back to a productive discussion. 

 If there are any side discussions or apology exchanges that need to take place, I'd ask that you do so via PM. Should a happy ending result from that, then the lovebirds can report back about how they kissed and made up._

 

It's quite obvious, actually, that several people did miss it, which I can understand because when you're following a thread you don't necessarily read every post before reacting again.

 But I'll ask again, PLEASE, let's move on from this! I've just deleted a bunch of posts that were made since my above quoted post, where people were still trying to slug it out. 

 markl is now Ok about it:

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_As for Mr. Akathisia, in discussing things off-line, we have agreed that sometimes what you type and what you mean can be two different things as well as what was typed and was read. I think we're cool now, but I'll speak for myself. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Akathisia is now Ok about it:

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Akathisia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No hard feelings between markl and I. We took the discussion out of this thread, and away from public view, as Wmcmanus requested. *I think everyone else should heed our mods words, or this thread will get closed.*_

 

Now that they're Ok about it, I'm Ok about it. I ask that everyone else agree to be Ok about it, even if you're not, or... see above.


----------



## MontyPythizzle

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *furball* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Actually that's just what I was thinking. Even though I bought 2 pairs of banana plugs along with the speaker wires, if it turns out to be too much of a hassle to terminate the wires, I may just end up keeping those wires naked.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Wait! Why would you go through another solder/connection point? Virtual Dynamics CLEARLY states that it will create mechanical/harmonic/.... noise..1!?!!? Also, they frown upon stranded cable.


----------



## subtle

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *spyder187* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've had the David RCA Interconnects and the Revelation Signature RCA interconnect (used for digital). For the David, the music sounded louder, I guess there was more dynamics. As for the Revelation Signature, I did not hear a huge enough difference to justify the cost, plus it didn't help that VD sent me the wrong length of cable and when I returned it, they paid me back via Paypal instead of refunding the money, so Paypal collected a bunch of money both ways. I didn't understand this well because VD loses out on fees when they received the cable, and I lost out on fees when they paid me back, when they could have saved on their fees. Anyways I digress.

 I feel that cables are for those who feel that the cost justifies the difference. If you've got money and a $20,000-100,000 difference, then I guess you could dabble with the $5000 cables. But for most of us normal folk, upgrading our headphones/speakers, etc will make much more of a worthwhile difference imo plus most of us don't have such high end systems either. 

*One of the reasons I've heard for not hearing a substantial difference, is the fact that my system isn't revealing enough, etc. *And when you contact them, they will do all they can to say how the cable will blow you away and all that. It's all a part of marketing. If they can get you to believe that you should hear a difference, then placebo effect may kick in and you'll hear one whether you like it or not. 

 The fact that the power cables were shown to be made out of cheap materials should only further justify spending money elsewhere first before putting it into these "little things". Either way, in the end you should enjoy the music coming from your system first and foremost._

 

Best post in this thread, and yeah I just love that line.

 If you can't hear the magic these sand pebbles create, it's because you don't have the power cord plugged in to an APL NWO.

 BTW, I love VD's slogan on their website with the made up word "Infront". Irony is good stuff sometimes.


----------



## Akathisia

I know you are being sarcastic subtle. But, the above 'line' is exactly why *I HAVE MADE NO STATEMENTS ON THE CLAIMED EFFECTS OF THE CABLE* in this thread.


----------



## c0mfortably_numb

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MontyPythizzle* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wait! Why would you go through another solder/connection point? Virtual Dynamics CLEARLY states that it will create mechanical/harmonic/.... noise..1!?!!? Also, they frown upon stranded cable._

 

I really don't believe in connectors either, and feel bare wire offers the best connection, but not because of vibration. If you add a plug to your wire, it's just another kink in the chain IMHO... *We really need to start a thread for this topic, so we don't derail this thread to far.* Sorry op for these OT replies. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Also I don't get why they don't like stranded cable, the Belden I have is stranded but really thick copper (need gloves to twist the cable, unless you like bloody fingers) I can't see a more expensive solid core cable making much more of a difference.


----------



## dvw

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *c0mfortably_numb* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Also I don't get why they don't like stranded cable, the Belden I have is stranded but really thick copper (need gloves to twist the cable, unless you like bloody fingers) I can't see a more expensive solid core cable making much more of a difference._

 

Actually, really thick cable is pointless. The current density concentrated on the surface of the conductor (skin effect). The question is how deep is this skin. At low frequency (AC), the depth can be quite deep. Someone else might want to calculate this. But that depth is finite, at some point the center core of the cable will not conduct any current.


----------



## IPodPJ

I'm confused (but that's nothing new. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)

 During the cable contests, Matt said Virtual Dynamics was hurting for sales and couldn't really afford the giveaways. If you participated in the contest, you know well what happened (and how angry some of us got). If you didn't, you might want to check out their sponsored forum and read the digital cable giveaway thread. And now I see this on their website:






 Record breaking month, eh? Doesn't sound to me like they are hurting for sales.

 Honesty is the best policy, you know. When you are honest, you don't have to worry about keeping track of the stories you tell people.

 It really saddens me that a company with such great sounding products has to resort to shady marketing tactics. I think Rick needs to come here and set the record straight (if he shares the same views or not). Maybe not everyone at the company has the same modus operandi. I'm really disappointed, Matt.


----------



## c0mfortably_numb

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm confused (but that's nothing new. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)

 During the cable contests, Matt said Virtual Dynamics was hurting for sales and couldn't really afford the giveaways. If you participated in the contest, you know well what happened (and how angry some of us got). If you didn't, you might want to check out their sponsored forum and read the digital cable giveaway thread. And now I see this on their website:






 Record breaking month, eh? Doesn't sound to me like they are hurting for sales.

 Honesty is the best policy, you know. When you are honest, you don't have to worry about keeping track of the stories you tell people.

 It really saddens me that a company with such great sounding products has to resort to shady marketing tactics. I think Rick needs to come here and set the record straight (if he shares the same views or not). Maybe not everyone at the company has the same modus operandi. I'm really disappointed, Matt._

 

Maybe someone here should email a link of this thread to one of the others at Virtual Dynamics, here is there contact us page with all the email addresses.


----------



## Akathisia

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Edwood* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*#2. Re: Strain Relief.*
 This pic alarms me the most.





 If the OP hasn't closed it up yet can you remove the wires from the strain relief and see if the insulation has been broken through to the bare conductors? Whether or not this cable would even pass UL certification, I do not know, but I wouldn't personally like my power wires to have the hot and neutral lines crushed next to each other, that's a short circuit and fire waiting to happen. Although it's difficult to see in the pic. I would prefer that the hot and neutral lines be farther away from each other in the strain relief clamp, with at least the ground line in between them._

 

I pulled the strain relief cap off of the IEC side of this cable and the green wire was smashed flat, but no conductor was visible. I don't want to be accused of making this sound worse than it is, but it is almost surprising how flattened the pvc casing is around this wire is, and it did not tear.


----------



## Acoustic Chef

Akathisia, mostly but not everyone. Good job though!

 Too bad once people actually hear our cables all this will mean nothing, and in the end only helped us.


----------



## Akathisia

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Akathisia, mostly but not everyone. Good job though!_

 

What does this mean?


----------



## Acoustic Chef

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Akathisia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What does this mean?_

 

It means you have too much time on your hands.


----------



## Akathisia

ok.


----------



## Edwood

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Akathisia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I pulled the strain relief cap off of the IEC side of this cable and the green wire was smashed flat, but no conductor was visible. I don't want to be accused of making this sound worse than it is, but it is almost surprising how flattened the pvc casing is around this wire is, and it did not tear._

 

It'll be fine. Just to be safe, I'd rearrange the wires a bit in the strain relief area.

 Arrange them like this side by side before clamping them down again.

 White - Green - Black.

 Or 

 Black - Green - White.

 Whichever fits better, either way, put the green one in the middle, and keep the White and Black wires away from each other.

 -Ed


----------



## subtle

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Too bad once people actually hear our cables all this will mean nothing, and in the end only helped us._

 

I'm curious.

 Do you think threads like this add or subtract from the amount of people wanting to hear your cables?


----------



## The Monkey

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It means you have too much time on your hands._

 

Acoustic Chef, it would be helpful to this thread if you could provide the studies/data upon which your company relies to substantiate its claims. Or, in the alternative, please point to where that information can be found on the VD website. Thanks!


----------



## vcoheda

i bet it adds.

 just how a "controversy" increases sales of a book, movie.


----------



## bigshot

P.T. Barnum said there's one born every minute.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## guzziguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_P.T. Barnum said there's one born every minute.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

P.T. Barnum was conservative in his estimate.


----------



## Wmcmanus

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *colonelkernel8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am not saying every person with an MBA is a schmuck. Throw out the whole MBA statement in fact, it was misconstrued (likely my fault).* A more accurate way of describing the demographic is a person who has made a lot of money without much effort or ingenuity and as a result does not know the value of a dollar. I was saying that the person who met this criteria was a "schmuck" in my eyes.* Furthermore, people who are on this forum are excluded from that demographic because they obviously care about how they spend their money. People who had to work hard for their money would not buy a $10,000 cable._

 

I hardly know where to begin or end with this one. I guess, firstly, I know quite a few people who have made a lot of money in their lives. But almost without exception, it took considerable effort and/or ingenuity on their part to do so. I know far more people who have not made much money in their lives. From my experience, the ratio of schmucks to non-schmucks is much higher in the latter group than in the former. As a general rule, idiots don't become wealthy. The reward systems in life are heavily stacked up against that outcome.

 Here's a perfect example of a friend of mine from Audiogon who has labored for 30 years in this hobby to gradually (after many trials and tribulations) put together one of the most amazingly realistic and impactful 2 channel audio systems you could possibly lend your ears to: 

AudiogoN Forums: Albert Porter's System

 While Albert does not use any Virtual Dynamics cables in his system, if you were to click on some of the links he provides (above), you will see that his cables are not at all cheap (at retail at least, I don't know what he paid for them).

 Does that make him and his MBA (I can only assume that he has one, for he must if he's spent this much on cables) a schmuck? In your eyes?

 Well, maybe so. But consider the alternative hypothesis: perhaps after 30 years of being _*extremely*_ active in the high end audio hobby, he may have accidentally stumbled across something of real value to his ears! Maybe in an utterly remarkable system such as the one he has assembled, cables really *do* make an audible difference, and one that he values in proportion to his overall investment in that system.

 As to Albert's level of schmuckness, judge for yourself:Albert Porter Photography

 Now, if someone without an MBA (and all of the free money that I'm now just learning comes from it) were to spend $10,000 on cables to be fitted into his mediocre system, then I think quite clearly we would have identified our schmuck.

 Just my opinion, of course, but I'm a 40-something MBA who happens to own some expensive cables, many of which are Virtual Dynamics cables if truth be told. But honestly, I'm not "attached" to them in any way. They're not at all part of my identity. I don't pet them before going to bed at night. I've got nothing to "lose" other than perhaps a tiny bit of pride (but even then, it wouldn't be much of an ego blow) if it were to be scientifically proven that my cables are in fact made out of snake oil. 

 I'd imagine, even if that were the case, I'd still break in no time. I'd just invest a good chuck of money in snake oil futures and watch the market react. If snake oil improves the sound of my system as much as my Virtual Dynamics Master Series cables suggests it does (if indeed snake oil oozes out when they're cut), then I might even consider making an additional investment somewhere along the supply chain. Perhaps a snake farm or a snake oil refinery? Damn MBA. Makes me think too much sometimes.


----------



## gotchaforce

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *The Monkey* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Acoustic Chef, it would be helpful to this thread if you could provide the studies/data upon which your company relies to substantiate its claims. Or, in the alternative, please point to where that information can be found on the VD website. Thanks!_

 

If you attack the "science" of virtual dynamics he will just reply back with nonsense and not address anything you say.

 as evident in the sponsor forum:
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f97/poor-skeptics-278199/


----------



## RAQemUP

As a newb here just putting together their first decent setup which includes increasing the output quality through better interconnects and power cords, this thread is very interesting. Power cable parts and build quality (other then purely looks) I have no idea about as I am no expert. I was looking more at cheap upgrade over stock power cables around $40-50 shipped such as Iron-lung Jellyfish and Sonikleer. Nothing past that price range really, like these VD Power 3 cables.

 A few people are stating that its nothing more then placebo effect for these fancy power cables having any effect on sound quality while others say there is definately a noticable difference. It may not be a night and day difference but who would refuse any improvement regardless of said cost of cable.

 Going by what some people in this thread mention, it's very interesting reading that a well regarded company is selling a cable at a $150 mark at which value seems to be simply pulled out of the air, no matter how low cost the sum of the parts with the total amount of labor and craftmanship factored in.

 After reading through every post in this thread (yes I did O_o ), I just walk away wanting nothing to do with VD in the future. This personally has nothing to do with supposed shoddy craftmanship issue or not getting what people pay far (which I really have no say about either) but mainly has to do with the customer service. Besides attacking some of the nay sayers (though some of the nay sayers did attack repeatedly but no company should retaliate anyways), they seem to not even know what they are building. VD have flat out ignored answering any comments about the UL issue which is a completely valid argument for a would be customer interested in wanting gauranteed safety in use, and they also seem to have also misstated what actually goes into the cable. They didn't answer anyone questioning their craftmanship quality. All VD did was post pictures of individual component parts and a clean work stations (with no explainations) as if that will explain the craftmanship issues dealing with the OP's cables (which he clearly explained what his issues are). None of those pictures show any stages of build of the Power 3 cable.

 Hopefully VD resolves the questions with actually explainations and not random pictures. A company with 6 years of supposed well regarded service for a niche market should have more to say then nothing.

 On a lighter note, I would like to say two things. A quick thankyou to Markl in his time consuming and expensive endeavor on reviewing a ton of costly aftermarket power cables. His review is a good read and has great credibility in the fact a more expensive power cable over stock can affect the audio chain and is not just possibly placebo effect. The other thing I'd like to say is this thread has read like a WWF wrestling match, some parts tag team and some parts cage match.


----------



## The Monkey

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gotchaforce* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If you attack the "science" of virtual dynamics he will just reply back with nonsense and not address anything you say.

 as evident in the sponsor forum:
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f97/poor-skeptics-278199/_

 

Thanks for the link. At least he posted something there, although the study clearly leaves a lot to be desired.

 The purpose of my question is not so much to fan the flames of the science v. true believers debate. Rather, I am curious what VD--and its competitors--rely upon for the reasonable basis for their claims. Personally, I would not be confident using that linked study. Chef, perhaps you can provide some clarity around this issue.


----------



## Czilla9000

I've been saying this for years....it's possible that the ferrite powder is raising the inductance of the cable, and thus having a filtering effect. Whether it's audible, I don't know.


----------



## IPodPJ

Has anyone else tried the tinfoil turkey neck mod yet?


----------



## c0mfortably_numb

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Has anyone else tried the tinfoil turkey neck mod yet?_

 

You might also be able to kick your mod up a notch, Reynolds foil makes a heavy duty foil thats at least twice as thick


----------



## Akathisia

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *RAQemUP* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_As a newb here just putting together their first decent setup which includes increasing the output quality through better interconnects and power cords, this thread is very interesting. Power cable parts and build quality (other then purely looks) I have no idea about as I am no expert. I was looking more at cheap upgrade over stock power cables around $40-50 shipped such as Iron-lung Jellyfish and Sonikleer. Nothing past that price range really, like these VD Power 3 cables.

 A few people are stating that its nothing more then placebo effect for these fancy power cables having any effect on sound quality while others say there is definately a noticable difference. It may not be a night and day difference but who would refuse any improvement regardless of said cost of cable.

 Going by what some people in this thread mention, it's very interesting reading that a well regarded company is selling a cable at a $150 mark at which value seems to be simply pulled out of the air, no matter how low cost the sum of the parts with the total amount of labor and craftmanship factored in.

 After reading through every post in this thread (yes I did O_o ), I just walk away wanting nothing to do with VD in the future. This personally has nothing to do with supposed shoddy craftmanship issue or not getting what people pay far (which I really have no say about either) but mainly has to do with the customer service. Besides attacking some of the nay sayers (though some of the nay sayers did attack repeatedly but no company should retaliate anyways), they seem to not even know what they are building. VD have flat out ignored answering any comments about the UL issue which is a completely valid argument for a would be customer interested in wanting gauranteed safety in use, and they also seem to have also misstated what actually goes into the cable. They didn't answer anyone questioning their craftmanship quality. All VD did was post pictures of individual component parts and a clean work stations (with no explainations) as if that will explain the craftmanship issues dealing with the OP's cables (which he clearly explained what his issues are). None of those pictures show any stages of build of the Power 3 cable.

 Hopefully VD resolves the questions with actually explainations and not random pictures. A company with 6 years of supposed well regarded service for a niche market should have more to say then nothing.

 On a lighter note, I would like to say two things. A quick thankyou to Markl in his time consuming and expensive endeavor on reviewing a ton of costly aftermarket power cables. His review is a good read and has great credibility in the fact a more expensive power cable over stock can affect the audio chain and is not just possibly placebo effect. The other thing I'd like to say is this thread has read like a WWF wrestling match, some parts tag team and some parts cage match. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	








_

 

This is an excellent post. Acoustic Chef, you can quit directing nonsense at me (then editing your posts after I reply), and focus on giving back some real replies. You can save face here.


----------



## Acoustic Chef

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *The Monkey* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Acoustic Chef, it would be helpful to this thread if you could provide the studies/data upon which your company relies to substantiate its claims. Or, in the alternative, please point to where that information can be found on the VD website. Thanks!_

 

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f97/poor-skeptics-278199/


----------



## SuperNothing

I have been following this thread and I am not a cable skeptic. I have noticed differences in my, admittedly cheap, system by just switching ICs. I don't have a non-portable amp so I can't say if power cables make any difference as I have not used them but I can say that I completely agree with the post by RAQemUP. The way that people bringing up legitimate questions about the cable and have just been attacked by VD is absurd. On another note, and this is just a personal pet peeve, the VD customer service representative might want to learn how to spell or at least use a spell checker. Maybe if words were spelled correctly people would be more inclined to listen.


----------



## dazzer1975

I have to say RAQ kinda echoes my sentiments, as a new comer to this hobby enjoying all the different noise signatures that the different amps and ic's etc bring to the table, it would have been encouraging to see a real engagement with the op's concerns and questions as opposed what degenerated into quite frankly, nothing more than a pissing contest.

 VD'S rep here, whether the owner, or an employee has probably done untold damage to that company, but to be fair, the pics in the first post would have done the most.

 As it is, my search for reputable and reasonable companies to do business with (read: give my money too) has just been made that little bit easier with the demonstration of company practice and policy by VD in this thread.

 It has been pretty shocking to witness actually, especially when you "expect" companies to engage with the questions and concerns of it's customers, both present and potential.

 Infact, tbh, it would be nice to see if thing can be moved forward with increased communication and a sincerity to deal with the issues raised in a sensible and mature fashion.

 I am also aware that perhaps I may be deemed a little naive for hoping tat could be a possibility


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *RAQemUP* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_A few people are stating that its nothing more then placebo effect for these fancy power cables having any effect on sound quality while others say there is definately a noticable difference. It may not be a night and day difference but who would refuse any improvement regardless of said cost of cable._

 

Raising my hand.

 Thirty years in the hobby, twenty in post production sound. Power cables, if they are constructed reasonably well, make no difference to the sound. The cable that came with your amp sounds exactly the same as the one that costs thousands.

 As a newbie just putting together your first system, I can give you plenty of advice on how to get great sound. But it takes thinking things through. You can't just buy great sound with money. The most expensive equipment in the world, applied poorly will sound like crap. Likewise, an inexpensive system that has been put together with thought and skill will sound great.

 You have to use your ears AND your brain.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## Bob_McBob

It's mind-boggling that Virtual Dynamics allows this guy to represent them in any way. He takes professionalism to unexplored lows.


----------



## bigshot

He has to own the company. No employer would allow that sort of unprofessionalism unless it was them.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## OverlordXenu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_https://www.virtualdynamics.ca/content.php?id=254_

 

That "scientific test" has been torn apart numerous times. Will you ever stop citing it?

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_He has to own the company. No employer would allow that sort of unprofessionalism unless it was them.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

As far as I know, he doesn't. I do recall him posting about getting one of their power cables for free to review, elsewhere, then a few months later his location was changed from Ottawa to Barrhead and he became VD's rep here.


----------



## hciman77

...


----------



## OverlordXenu

hciman77, Virtual Dynamics also edited the results.

 "This report is an edited version of the report prepared on August 13, 2007."


----------



## The Monkey

hciman, 

 Your analysis is spot on. Again, I am not debating whether or not cables have different sound signatures, etc. However, companies are expected to have competent and reliable data to substantiate their advertising claims, and VD has not yet supplied such information. 

 The broader question, of course, is how many cable companies would be able to provide adequate substantiation for their claims? My guess is not a lot. How they avoid challenges or enforcement actions is a mystery to me.


----------



## hciman77

...


----------



## dvw

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *hciman77* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_



 2) Qualifications of of the Supervisor (not an EE), no offence but does this guy have sufficient expertise to supervise this project ?
_

 

If the researchers don't know why they can't capture a 10 KHz square wave with a sound card, I don't think they are qualified to publish any technical report.


----------



## Acoustic Chef

If he gets the time, I think Rick might stop by to answer a couple questions.


----------



## hciman77

...


----------



## dvw

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *hciman77* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well....

 1) Why can you not capture a 10K square wave ?, my understanding was that a square wave is effectively an infinite set of sine waves , but is it that much harder to capture one at 10K rather than 1K ?, that is a genuine question.

 2) They are just undergrads so we ought to cut them some slack and as for technical report well it doesnt claim to be a technical report in the sense that it doesnt claim to exhaustively test the product. It is a comparison study._

 

Yes your understanding is correct. A 10KHz square wave has frequency component up to 100KHz. So to capture or transmit a square wave you will actually need a bandwidth of 100KHz or more. The sound card is band limited to 22 KHz. In order assure proper operation of the DAC an anti-aliasing filter at 20KHz is used. So after the filtering the square wave will be transformed into a sine wave.

 If you read closely at the report, the report is published by a contracted agent and is not affliated with the University of Toronto. So what you have is a guy that hire 4 UT student (probably not even fulll time) and claim this is a UT report.

 If I go out and hire some Stanford liberal art major and publish a report. Can I claim the report is a Standford study?

 Actually I have no problem with the report, careful reading will show it is not really relevant. But I have problem with the misleading statement "University of Toroto Test" and "Walters Forensic Lab" (the actual study) never comes up.


----------



## Know Talent

I've heard the profit margin in boutique cables is quite lucrative...

 Everyone's looking for their own "Valhalla" so naturally there will be those who open the door when opportunity knocks.


----------



## hciman77

...


----------



## dvw

You also got to look at what they used to measure these parameter. What they are using is Adobe Audition which is actually Cool Edit. This is actually an audio editing software. I don't believe there is any calibration that can be done on it.

 To do a proper test with a PC, you can easily rent a National Instrument's Data acquisation card (instead of M-Audio sound card) and use NI's Labview.

 The major difference between an instrument grade DAC and an audio grade DAC is the absolute linearity and accuracy. Audio DAC's requirement is only monotonicty. Testing audio DAC for absolute would be cost prohibit for consumer.

 This research exercise is like attempting to measure the thickness of a hair with a ruler.


----------



## draudio

Hello Everybody, I am Rick Schultz, President of Virtual Dynamics.

 First of all, Virtual Dynamics is owned by another one of my companies but Virtual dynamics is my main business.

 It was brought to my attention that my presence would be welcomed and maybe even appreciated, so here I am.

 I’ve made a pretty strict rule over the last 6 years about staying far away from forums but I have to hand it to Jude and all you guys here at Head-Fi because I do think this is a wonderful and profitable place for audiophiles to come and hang out in their spare time.

 I have read through and enjoyed quite a few chuckles, as I watch the arguments and banter and the comedic spin that is ever present in these forums.

 Virtual Dynamics recently authorized a new young salesperson Matt Carter, to have the opportunity to come and share his thoughts on the Head-Fi forums. Matt has been with us for about 3 months, and I must say, the young fella really grows on you.

 Some of the questions that have been brought up in the forum as I have read through question the legitimacy and accuracy of information that are in the audio forums here at Head-Fi, placed by Matt. Matt has had the opportunity to pretty much discuss as he pleases. My biggest rule for Matt was “do not comment on other manufacturers products.” There has been a few exceptions, and all of them okayed by me.

 There has however been some mis-information. Not on purpose, by any means. If you know Matt, you would know that he is deeply concerned with credibility, quality and what people think. I on the other hand, am only really concerned with the first two. I will let what people think be up to them.

 The only information, as I read through very briefly, that I thought was relevant or important and would require my attention is one topic, but before I address it I want to clarify that forums are what forums are, they are a place for people to play as well as learn. The learning can sometimes be highly impeded due to the fact that play is a heck of a lot more fun, and definitely more common.

 For anyone reading an audio forum, and wondering about the legitimacy of anything that is said I would have to question the sanity of that. Not to pick on anyone, but as you read through you can see the wide variations of what people are saying they perceive as truth.

 We are an audio cable manufacturer, at least on the surface, because our products are designed to replace conventional audio cabling product. But from day one I would have hoped that people looking at our product could see that our ideas are very different.

 Commonly people in forums argue about the legitimacy of cables, and whether or not they could make a difference. To be honest, this is not an argument I care to get into. I’m only interested in those who are interested in finding out, and clearly not everybody is.

 Where I feel the need to come and speak with you is that I know that Matt had shared at one point in time that Virtual Dynamics was struggling and that that was the reason why we were giving away cables and creating sales. As Matt was quite new with us, in his defense, I realize first he panicked, as a young fella might, and second I think maybe it might have been Matt’s perspective, because what is struggling? If struggling means you don’t have office walls, and your business doesn’t have a million dollars in the account, or for that matter even a hundred thousand just sitting there as backup, then yep, we’re struggling, however in 2007 Virtual Dynamics broke 1 million dollars in sales. Out of the one million in sales Virtual Dynamics did profit about 20% over our production costs.

 So, are we struggling? No struggling is when you lose money, we have been doing this for 6 years and business is profitable. I might note that business must be profitable or what is the point?

 So, I think we did quite well, but it also means so did you. After I pay my business expenses, insurance, people products ect., when I sell you a cable for a hundred dollars, I make, on average, 20 dollars of real profit after expenses. It means my business is successful enough to stay around, grow and you are only paying a very reasonable markup when you buy from Virtual Dynamics. But what do we do with our profits?

 Well, last year pretty much every penny went back in to try to further develop our products and further expand our services.

 To continue to be competitive and offer even more value to our customers I put my money where my heart is, Virtual Dynamics and High-End audio. So how did Matt get the perspective that we were hurting? Well in December we did 160 thousand dollars in sales in approximately 3 weeks, we were a humming machine with an 8-10 week backorder on our products.

 January is usually very strong months for sales, but it was much slower, and resounding off our Virtual Dynamic’s walls you could hear a little the sounds of disappointment from me to our sales department that things were slow.

 Perspective, I guess as a sales person when your boss is hounding you to make it happen it may communicate exactly what Matt communicated to you, because even as my sales person the financial part of my business is none of his business, is it?

 Let’s hope for audio’s sake that companies thrive and do well. When I see a company in high-end audio who builds a good product that I like to listen to I reward them with my purchases and my hope that they do well. I used to try real hard to get the best deal I could possibly get, but now I’m starting to realize, because I am on the other side of the fence, that this is not beneficial all the time.

 Audio, specifically high-end audio, is a luxury product. Buy only what you can afford to spend on your hobby, and guys it is a hobby. How much you spend on your audio system has nothing to do with who you are.

 I think the only reason that a person should spend more money on their audio system is if they enjoy the hobby of listening, have enough expendable cash to put towards the hobby, won’t harm anybody in their household by doing it, or deprive them of their wants and needs, especially our wives and children, and are not so addicted to it that it is all they talk about or do. I have met a few who, like I have been in the past, needed to spend some “dry out” time.

 If all of these things are in place and you feel assured that the money that you spend will increase your enjoyment of listening to music, then please, all of us as audio manufacturers welcome you to come and talk with us. But if you really have a question about Virtual Dynamics, and it’s important to you to know that we will give you a real honest effort without any play then call us, or email us. Forums are not the place to get serious.

 One last thing, to be on topic finally, you have a beautiful cat. I am sorry that he tore up your Power Three and if you wish we will replace it for you under warrantee. Do Power Threes cost a billion dollars? No. But we do hope that you will find, regardless of what you think of the cable when looking at the particles that have likely ruined your floor, your vacuum, and maybe our reputation with you, we built a nice affordable product that increases the enjoyment of listening to music far more than its modest price. All in all, I am very proud of my Power Three.

 If you knew the heart and care that goes into every one of our products you might realize when I saw the picture of the torn up power three, my heart sank just a little. Each of these is handcrafted with care, patience and attention. It’s because of this, my love of the product, that I really would love to help you and replace it for you.

 Have fun, and enjoy chatting with Matt.


----------



## Acoustic Chef

You know I don't like to look at myself as a sales person, or some kind of marketer. I am here to share my experiences and opinions with others. 
 As most of you might know I lived on this forum for about 5 years before becoming Acoustic Chef. I hang out here still because I adore this community.

 I became a member of the VD team because I had too. After receiving one of their power cables to play with I fell in love and fought for ~6months to come hang out with the awesome crew here at VD, and I must say I am loving every second of it, while truly living the dream. Rick is the coolest guy you will ever meet and his cables are out of this world!
 As I type this Rick is skipping around the room modeling his new artic cat gear showing off the advances in ass protection. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Now, Ragging on the cables is like ragging on my wife or kids because you think their ugly. And I REALLY don’t appreciate people hacking them to pieces and having their mutilated parts displayed in such a manner.


 I’m honest, and a true member of the community. Appreciate it.


----------



## gritzcolin

The fact that Rick offered to replace a cable the guy got for free, his cat tore apart and he chopped up to explore sits pretty well with me. In the end if people like the product and the customer service is that good you have given people what they really want when they buy something from you. 

 I guess I will keep an eye out for more rca giveaways as i do believe they make a difference.


 Edit. Acoustic Chef, it's been said I am the coolest guy you could ever meet and my stables are out of this world but thats merely speculation as of this moment.


----------



## GreatDane

Is this the same Matt Carter that has been banned here?


----------



## ecclesand

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GreatDane* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is this the same Matt Carter that has been banned here?_

 

That's the first thing I thought of when I heard the name.


----------



## goldenratiophi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Now, Ragging on the cables is like ragging on my wife or kids because you think their ugly. And I REALLY don’t appreciate people hacking them to pieces and having their mutilated parts displayed in such a manner._

 

I'll give you that - it really sets me off when people hack my wife and kids to pieces and display their mutilated parts 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 /sorry, just couldn't help it


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *c0mfortably_numb* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You might also be able to kick your mod up a notch, Reynolds foil makes a heavy duty foil thats at least twice as thick 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

It might be the heavy duty foil. I'm not sure. Actually, my D5000 now sound like a mix of D5000 and K701. Markl would truly love this mod, based on what I know of his sonic preferences.

 I still think I need to try a few more settings with the foil. It has all the detail, soundstage, imaging, spectral balance, and decay one could ever want to hear in a headphone system -- maybe a little too much for some. It just seemed to lessen the bass quantity a notch which I think most people would actually prefer, while still maintaining bass definition and impact.


----------



## tev

IpodPJ, Can you give us more details on your D5K mod? Especially how and where the heavy foil is used. I'm tempted to get a pair for doing a mod, perhaps Markl's but I'm a bit nervous about spending the jack and permanantly adding the sticky back foam in. Do you use foil instead of the foam in the ear cups? Perhaps you outlined your procedure somewhere already and I just missed the post.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tev* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_IpodPJ, Can you give us more details on your D5K mod? Especially how and where the heavy foil is used. I'm tempted to get a pair for doing a mod, perhaps Markl's but I'm a bit nervous about spending the jack and permanantly adding the sticky back foam in. Do you use foil instead of the foam in the ear cups? Perhaps you outlined your procedure somewhere already and I just missed the post. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Hahaha. No, sir. I did not mod the D5000. Markl does the headphone modding. I prefer to only do mods that are completely reversible and won't void a manufacturer's warranty. I modded my Virtual Dynamics cables by wrapping tinfoil around them. The posts were made quite a few pages back. Please feel free to ask me any questions you might have.


----------



## IPodPJ

Rick,

 Thank you for coming and posting your honest feelings. While I disagree with some of what you've stated, I personally appreciate it and I'm sure others do as well. You guys make excellent sounding cables & cords, and I (as well as others, I'm sure) only wish to know that your customer service and marketing methods are held to the same high standards.

 I also want to thank you for the Master LE digital cable, as it is one of the best I've ever heard (and even better with my tinfoil mod). It was fun participating in a contest with some very creative Head-Fiers.


----------



## subtle

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GreatDane* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is this the same Matt Carter that has been banned here?_

 

Judging from his replies earlier in this thread, this whole thing is starting to make a lot more sense now.

 I've been researching Grado threads quite extensively since I arrived here and that guy had such a lack of tact and a annoying ability to pop up in almost every single one of them with a Grado jab. That avatar he used was most annoying as well.

 Looking at the join date for AC's profile, coupled with the time Matt was banned, I'd say it's just way too coincidental for it not to be him.


----------



## AdamP88

After reading through nearly all this thread, I have only this to say: after seeing the complete lack of professionalism and respect displayed by Acoustic Chef, if I was in the market I wouldn't even consider buying Virtual Dynamic cables now. Regardless of build or sound quality.

 If one of my employees was acting that disrespectful to not only customers but potential customers, he wouldn't be my employee much longer.


----------



## Patrick82

After reading this thread, I can't wait to try their cables! I will resume my audio hobby...


----------



## Pangaea

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *AdamP88* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_After reading through nearly all this thread, I have only this to say: after seeing the complete lack of professionalism and respect displayed by Acoustic Chef, if I was in the market I wouldn't even consider buying Virtual Dynamic cables now. Regardless of build or sound quality.

 If one of my employees was acting that disrespectful to not only customers but potential customers, he wouldn't be my employee much longer._

 


 That is so well put. I stopped caring about this guys cables so long ago I can barely remember what he is selling. My only explanation for even reading parts of this thread can only be compared to watching really bad reality television. I keep waiting for this clown to get voted off. I wouldn't buy water from him if I was in the desert.


----------



## tev

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hahaha. No, sir. I did not mod the D5000. Markl does the headphone modding. I prefer to only do mods that are completely reversible and won't void a manufacturer's warranty. I modded my Virtual Dynamics cables by wrapping tinfoil around them. The posts were made quite a few pages back. Please feel free to ask me any questions you might have._

 

Oops...Thanks for the correction. I've actually wrapped some VDH cables with aluminum foil last year, but heard little benefit.


----------



## OverlordXenu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *subtle* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Judging from his replies earlier in this thread, this whole thing is starting to make a lot more sense now.

 I've been researching Grado threads quite extensively since I arrived here and that guy had such a lack of tact and a annoying ability to pop up in almost every single one of them with a Grado jab. That avatar he used was most annoying as well.

 Looking at the join date for AC's profile, coupled with the time Matt was banned, I'd say it's just way too coincidental for it not to be him._

 

Considering his location is Ottawa, and he is posting about gaming mice, it is him. (I know him from another forum, for a gaming "clan," under another user name, and yes, he is just as immature there as on here. He was/is actually banned from there.)


----------



## Tech2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *draudio* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hello Everybody, I am Rick Schultz, President of Virtual Dynamics.

 First of all, Virtual Dynamics is owned by another one of my companies but Virtual dynamics is my main business.

 It was brought to my attention that my presence would be welcomed and maybe even appreciated, so here I am.

 I’ve made a pretty strict rule over the last 6 years about staying far away from forums but I have to hand it to Jude and all you guys here at Head-Fi because I do think this is a wonderful and profitable place for audiophiles to come and hang out in their spare time.

 I have read through and enjoyed quite a few chuckles, as I watch the arguments and banter and the comedic spin that is ever present in these forums.

 Virtual Dynamics recently authorized a new young salesperson Matt Carter, to have the opportunity to come and share his thoughts on the Head-Fi forums. Matt has been with us for about 3 months, and I must say, the young fella really grows on you.

 Some of the questions that have been brought up in the forum as I have read through question the legitimacy and accuracy of information that are in the audio forums here at Head-Fi, placed by Matt. Matt has had the opportunity to pretty much discuss as he pleases. My biggest rule for Matt was “do not comment on other manufacturers products.” There has been a few exceptions, and all of them okayed by me.

 There has however been some mis-information. Not on purpose, by any means. If you know Matt, you would know that he is deeply concerned with credibility, quality and what people think. I on the other hand, am only really concerned with the first two. I will let what people think be up to them.

 The only information, as I read through very briefly, that I thought was relevant or important and would require my attention is one topic, but before I address it I want to clarify that forums are what forums are, they are a place for people to play as well as learn. The learning can sometimes be highly impeded due to the fact that play is a heck of a lot more fun, and definitely more common.

 For anyone reading an audio forum, and wondering about the legitimacy of anything that is said I would have to question the sanity of that. Not to pick on anyone, but as you read through you can see the wide variations of what people are saying they perceive as truth.

 We are an audio cable manufacturer, at least on the surface, because our products are designed to replace conventional audio cabling product. But from day one I would have hoped that people looking at our product could see that our ideas are very different.

 Commonly people in forums argue about the legitimacy of cables, and whether or not they could make a difference. To be honest, this is not an argument I care to get into. I’m only interested in those who are interested in finding out, and clearly not everybody is.

 Where I feel the need to come and speak with you is that I know that Matt had shared at one point in time that Virtual Dynamics was struggling and that that was the reason why we were giving away cables and creating sales. As Matt was quite new with us, in his defense, I realize first he panicked, as a young fella might, and second I think maybe it might have been Matt’s perspective, because what is struggling? If struggling means you don’t have office walls, and your business doesn’t have a million dollars in the account, or for that matter even a hundred thousand just sitting there as backup, then yep, we’re struggling, however in 2007 Virtual Dynamics broke 1 million dollars in sales. Out of the one million in sales Virtual Dynamics did profit about 20% over our production costs.

 So, are we struggling? No struggling is when you lose money, we have been doing this for 6 years and business is profitable. I might note that business must be profitable or what is the point?

 So, I think we did quite well, but it also means so did you. After I pay my business expenses, insurance, people products ect., when I sell you a cable for a hundred dollars, I make, on average, 20 dollars of real profit after expenses. It means my business is successful enough to stay around, grow and you are only paying a very reasonable markup when you buy from Virtual Dynamics. But what do we do with our profits?

 Well, last year pretty much every penny went back in to try to further develop our products and further expand our services.

 To continue to be competitive and offer even more value to our customers I put my money where my heart is, Virtual Dynamics and High-End audio. So how did Matt get the perspective that we were hurting? Well in December we did 160 thousand dollars in sales in approximately 3 weeks, we were a humming machine with an 8-10 week backorder on our products.

 January is usually very strong months for sales, but it was much slower, and resounding off our Virtual Dynamic’s walls you could hear a little the sounds of disappointment from me to our sales department that things were slow.

 Perspective, I guess as a sales person when your boss is hounding you to make it happen it may communicate exactly what Matt communicated to you, because even as my sales person the financial part of my business is none of his business, is it?

 Let’s hope for audio’s sake that companies thrive and do well. When I see a company in high-end audio who builds a good product that I like to listen to I reward them with my purchases and my hope that they do well. I used to try real hard to get the best deal I could possibly get, but now I’m starting to realize, because I am on the other side of the fence, that this is not beneficial all the time.

 Audio, specifically high-end audio, is a luxury product. Buy only what you can afford to spend on your hobby, and guys it is a hobby. How much you spend on your audio system has nothing to do with who you are.

 I think the only reason that a person should spend more money on their audio system is if they enjoy the hobby of listening, have enough expendable cash to put towards the hobby, won’t harm anybody in their household by doing it, or deprive them of their wants and needs, especially our wives and children, and are not so addicted to it that it is all they talk about or do. I have met a few who, like I have been in the past, needed to spend some “dry out” time.

 If all of these things are in place and you feel assured that the money that you spend will increase your enjoyment of listening to music, then please, all of us as audio manufacturers welcome you to come and talk with us. But if you really have a question about Virtual Dynamics, and it’s important to you to know that we will give you a real honest effort without any play then call us, or email us. Forums are not the place to get serious.

 One last thing, to be on topic finally, you have a beautiful cat. I am sorry that he tore up your Power Three and if you wish we will replace it for you under warrantee. Do Power Threes cost a billion dollars? No. But we do hope that you will find, regardless of what you think of the cable when looking at the particles that have likely ruined your floor, your vacuum, and maybe our reputation with you, we built a nice affordable product that increases the enjoyment of listening to music far more than its modest price. All in all, I am very proud of my Power Three.

 If you knew the heart and care that goes into every one of our products you might realize when I saw the picture of the torn up power three, my heart sank just a little. Each of these is handcrafted with care, patience and attention. It’s because of this, my love of the product, that I really would love to help you and replace it for you.

 Have fun, and enjoy chatting with Matt._

 

I am truly flabbergasted by your response. I cannot believe that you have actually rationalized the insulting behavior of your rep by downplaying the significance of this forum and it's membership.

 Yours is the type of company that will never see a single penny of my money. Now, I'm sure that will not have much effect on your company's bottom line, but trust me, I am likely not the only member here that feels this way. All things being equal in a cable purchasing decision and your company loses the sale because of the actions of the 'young fella' and your defense of his insulting 'banter'.

 Good luck with your company. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 You have zero credibility in my eyes.


----------



## draudio

Hey guys,

 After all my thoughts earlier I realized one more thing that I should share with you all. I am not like other businesspeople. Some, of course, but I don't try to model myself after anybody else. When I first started off in high-end audio and tried some forms myself I ended up saying a lot of silly things, in fact some downright stupid things that I regret.

 Fact is, I was in the middle of learning, or maybe the beginning, how to become a decent loving person.

 I had a lot of people that I didn't even expect would want to harm a hair on my head tell me that they would like to do just that, saying they would never buy from me, ect. ect. Partly because I acted immaturely, but I grew up. I continue to grow, and I have changed. The judging of people that I once had I realize now is not something I want in my life.

 So, if you wonder why Matt would not get fired it's because I care about him pretty much like a son. He'll make mistakes, he'll screw up, he'll say things he shouldn't but he'll learn. If I can bring anything to high-end audio and all I bring is to help one person I will have considered myself a great success. 

 I realize that some of you will never do business with me, or Matt, for various reasons, but I do the best I can to be a decent person and that is what I ask of my staff. In order to truly judge a person you must know them well enough to know their heart. In my experience, and I've tried to have lots of it when it comes to making friends, once you get to know that heart judging is far behind you.

 I would leave you with this one thought. One that was used on me.

 If you have never screwed up, said something inappropriate, rubbed someone the wrong way, or crossed somebody unintentionally you'd be the first one I've met, and you're a whole lot better person than I.

 Matt will make mistakes again in the future,but as long as he keeps on trying as hard as he is and remains true to what I have seen of his heart he has a job at Virtual Dynamics. So I think fellas, you might be stuck with the boy.

 -Rick


----------



## Tech2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *draudio* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hey guys,

 After all my thoughts earlier I realized one more thing that I should share with you all. I am not like other businesspeople. Some, of course, but I don't try to model myself after anybody else. When I first started off in high-end audio and tried some forms myself I ended up saying a lot of silly things, in fact some downright stupid things that I regret.

 Fact is, I was in the middle of learning, or maybe the beginning, how to become a decent loving person.

 I had a lot of people that I didn't even expect would want to harm a hair on my head tell me that they would like to do just that, saying they would never buy from me, ect. ect. Partly because I acted immaturely, but I grew up. I continue to grow, and I have changed. The judging of people that I once had I realize now is not something I want in my life.

 So, if you wonder why Matt would not get fired it's because I care about him pretty much like a son. He'll make mistakes, he'll screw up, he'll say things he shouldn't but he'll learn. If I can bring anything to high-end audio and all I bring is to help one person I will have considered myself a great success. 

 I realize that some of you will never do business with me, or Matt, for various reasons, but I do the best I can to be a decent person and that is what I ask of my staff. In order to truly judge a person you must know them well enough to know their heart. In my experience, and I've tried to have lots of it when it comes to making friends, once you get to know that heart judging is far behind you.

 I would leave you with this one thought. One that was used on me.

*If you have never screwed up, said something inappropriate, rubbed someone the wrong way, or crossed somebody unintentionally you'd be the first one I've met, and you're a whole lot better person than I.
*
 Matt will make mistakes again in the future,but as long as he keeps on trying as hard as he is and remains true to what I have seen of his heart he has a job at Virtual Dynamics. So I think fellas, you might be stuck with the boy.

 -Rick_

 

Oh, I've screwed up plenty, insulted people, and done things that I've regretted, for sure. But if I was ever confronted about it and it was truly inadvertent, I've always apologized for, not defended, my actions.


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Rick,

 Thank you for coming and posting your honest feelings. While I disagree with some of what you've stated, I personally appreciate it and I'm sure others do as well. You guys make excellent sounding cables & cords, and I (as well as others, I'm sure) only wish to know that your customer service and marketing methods are held to the same high standards._

 



 You are simply incredible 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	










 We all were expecting all this time for someone with knowledge enough, and a respectable position from VD to show up, and explain all the claims, and some of the theory behind those cables, and maybe some of the why's, even more now after seeing what they actually use to make them in those pictures posted. Then while the owner of the company shows up, and rather of explaining all those doubts, that many of us, old and new members of this forum, have been wondering for years, about them, he simply instead wrote two pages of pure marketing, and on top try to justify what in the eyes of many members, was a very inappropriate conduct of one of their reps against other members, some of you still applaud that guy, and encourage him to keep on doing the same??? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	










 Sorry but some of you are simply incredible guys!!!...I'm speechless...


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Tech2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Oh, I've screwed up plenty, insulted people, and done things that I've regretted, for sure. But if I was ever confronted about it, and it was truly inadvertent, I've always apologized for my actions rather than defended them._

 

x2. We all make mistakes and continue to learn from them. But what separates wisdom and maturity from ignorance and immaturity is the ability to recognize the criticism people offer you and apply it to your persona. If just one person is telling you that your behavior may be inappropriate, consider what has been said to you. If the whole lot of people are telling you the same thing then you _really_ need to take it to heart and adjust your attitude.


----------



## kpeezy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You guys are incredible
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	










 We all were expecting all this time for someone with knowledge enough, and a respectable position from VD to show up, and explain all the claims, and some of the theory behind those cables, and maybe some of the why's, even more now after seeing what they actually use to make them in those pictures posted. Then while the owner of the company shows up, and rather of explaining all those doubts, that many of us, old and new members of this forum, have been wondering for years, about them, he simply instead wrote two pages of pure marketing, and on top try to justify what in the eyes of many members, was a very inappropriate conduct of one of their reps against other members, some of you still applaud that guy, and encourage him to keep on doing the same??? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	










 Sorry but some of you are simply incredible!!!...I'm speechless...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Preach it.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sorry but some of you are simply incredible!!!...I'm speechless...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Don't say "some of you." Please have the decency to address me by my name rather than a vague insinuation if you have an issue with my opinions. Are you forgetting that I brought up the issue that he came here to comment on in the first place?

 If that's the way Rick feels, that's the way he feels. You can't drive a stake through his heart because of it. I appreciate him taking the time to show up and address us directly, but I don't condone the responsibility he seems to feel for an employee (in sales) that shows disrespect to members of a forum that they are a sponsor of. Obviously they have left a bad taste in many people's mouths and their potential sales will suffer from it. But if that's how they want to conduct business, nothing we have said or will say will obviously change anything.


----------



## Dan Millheim

Thank You Rick for taking the time to post your thoughts on this forum. Your comments here are a lesson in tact and professional decorum no matter what view one holds related to the products you sell. Your young associate will do well to learn the same when under pressure in the future. While some may say his behavior is unprofessional, and it has been at times, I see a young man who is passionate for a company he deeply loves, and that is something that cannot be taught. In a world that has precious little passion and excitement for much of anything, let alone ones vocation, I respect that and I respect what he will become! I wish you both, and all your employees, well!

 As for a few others on this thread who tirelessly troll our head-fi community web site seeking to viciously KILL any discussion related to cables, their possible merits or manufacturing practices while belittling and patronizing members in the process... YOU embarrass me more. Again, Matt's a work in progress, but what's your excuse?

 I continue to be amazed that these same individuals are allowed to destroy a community who's very existence was designed to freely exchange ideas. I know many who refuse to post anything because of it or who have left entirely. This should not be...


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Don't say "some of you." Please have the decency to address me by my name rather than a vague insinuation if you have an issue with my opinions. Are you forgetting that I brought up the issue that he came here to comment on in the first place?

 If that's the way Rick feels, that's the way he feels. You can't drive a stake through his heart because of it. I appreciate him taking the time to show up and address us directly, but I don't condone the responsibility he seems to feel for an employee (in sales) that shows disrespect to members of a forum that they are a sponsor of. Obviously they have left a bad taste in many people's mouths and their potential sales will suffer from it. But if that's how they want to conduct business, nothing we have said or will say will obviously change anything._

 

And what this has to be with being decent? Call things for the right name, please, if someone has being and had a non decent conduct for sure has not been me, look around. Now if you want me to be more specific with names, which I was trying not to do, to avoid any further conflicts, I will be...

 But to state opinions on others opinions, and avoiding names, is not a lack of decency in my book, there are other conducts that could be considered more as lack of decency, and I have never call them as such neither...

 Well given that you ask, I will answer you, *you are one of them*, but *not the only one* who approved that attitude, (just see above, another member who approved that)...that was why I said some of you in plural, I know that there will be more, but if you do not like the way I posted, sorry, I apologize for that, and I promise that I will use your name from now on, while referring to your posts, so you will be happy...

 Peace!!!

 What Rick said was good, but just for the ones interested in economy and marketing, but this is an audio forum, and the problem is what he did not say about other aspects more audio related, and that is IMO the main problem...even though I agree with you about the second part...this attitude will cost him a couple of future customers...for sure...


----------



## immtbiker

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *draudio* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ So I think fellas, you might be stuck with the boy.
 -Rick_

 







 There's an obvious response here but I'll leave that to everyone's imagination.

 Is there any chance this thread can get back on topic or has it run it's course?


----------



## Akathisia

A question for Dr. Audio :

 I appreciate your offer to replace my cable, but, I have to ask why I would want a replacement when your over-enthusiastic employee Matt has made personnal jabs at me and what he said about the 6th Aniversary Power Cable :

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ok so what would you expect for free then?

 That's exactly what this guy said, and look what become of that._

 

He said this after he was questioned about sub-standard construction. (Which even you have to admit that this cable is lacking in the love and hard work department.)

 I had no intentions of ripping on your company. I even told Acoustic Chef I had planned on doing a very positive review using some high end studio equipment when he sent me the cable.

 I am not a power cable skeptic, nor am I a power cable believer. But I thought this giveaway would be a way for me to make the decision. Instead, I stumbled upon smashed wires, poor handiwork, and blatent lies about the conductors used.

 I have not bashed anyone in this thread, until you came here and insulted my (and this forums) intelligence.

 But the offer is accepted. If you want me to try out and review one of your cables, go ahead and send one (you have my address). I'll spray it down with some cat scratch repellent.


----------



## colonelkernel8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Wmcmanus* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I hardly know where to begin or end with this one. I guess, firstly, I know quite a few people who have made a lot of money in their lives. But almost without exception, it took considerable effort and/or ingenuity on their part to do so. I know far more people who have not made much money in their lives. From my experience, the ratio of schmucks to non-schmucks is much higher in the latter group than in the former. As a general rule, idiots don't become wealthy. The reward systems in life are heavily stacked up against that outcome.

 Here's a perfect example of a friend of mine from Audiogon who has labored for 30 years in this hobby to gradually (after many trials and tribulations) put together one of the most amazingly realistic and impactful 2 channel audio systems you could possibly lend your ears to: 

AudiogoN Forums: Albert Porter's System

 While Albert does not use any Virtual Dynamics cables in his system, if you were to click on some of the links he provides (above), you will see that his cables are not at all cheap (at retail at least, I don't know what he paid for them).

 Does that make him and his MBA (I can only assume that he has one, for he must if he's spent this much on cables) a schmuck? In your eyes?

 Well, maybe so. But consider the alternative hypothesis: perhaps after 30 years of being *extremely* active in the high end audio hobby, he may have accidentally stumbled across something of real value to his ears! Maybe in an utterly remarkable system such as the one he has assembled, cables really *do* make an audible difference, and one that he values in proportion to his overall investment in that system.

 As to Albert's level of schmuckness, judge for yourself:Albert Porter Photography

 Now, if someone without an MBA (and all of the free money that I'm now just learning comes from it) were to spend $10,000 on cables to be fitted into his mediocre system, then I think quite clearly we would have identified our schmuck.

 Just my opinion, of course, but I'm a 40-something MBA who happens to own some expensive cables, many of which are Virtual Dynamics cables if truth be told. But honestly, I'm not "attached" to them in any way. They're not at all part of my identity. I don't pet them before going to bed at night. I've got nothing to "lose" other than perhaps a tiny bit of pride (but even then, it wouldn't be much of an ego blow) if it were to be scientifically proven that my cables are in fact made out of snake oil. 

 I'd imagine, even if that were the case, I'd still break in no time. I'd just invest a good chuck of money in snake oil futures and watch the market react. If snake oil improves the sound of my system as much as my Virtual Dynamics Master Series cables suggests it does (if indeed snake oil oozes out when they're cut), then I might even consider making an additional investment somewhere along the supply chain. Perhaps a snake farm or a snake oil refinery? Damn MBA. Makes me think too much sometimes._

 

In hindsight, you are completely right. My whole reasoning was based on a model that I built entirely in my head of the kind of person who would buy expensive cables. None of it was based on any experience or even research, so it was unreasonable for me to even make such a statement. On top of that, I used childish and inappropriate language. I also for some reason decided to relate the whole thing to MBA's, obviously a lot of people have MBA's, this was just another piece of imagery my mind concocted, and it is obviously wrong. For that I apologize. Thank you for the response.


----------



## Wmcmanus

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *colonelkernel8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_In hindsight, you are completely right. My whole reasoning was based on a model that I built entirely in my head of the kind of person who would buy expensive cables. None of it was based on any experience or even research, so it was unreasonable for me to even make such a statement. On top of that, I used childish and inappropriate language. For that I apologize. Thank you for the response._

 

That's quite nice and very mature of you. Thank you as well. 

 I guess what struck me about your comments was the underlying assumption that life becomes rather easy for certain people after they luck into financial success. As I've stated, that hasn't been the general pattern that I've observed. It might be a different kind of work that professionals do, but it's still hard work and there are no short cuts to the top. Sure, a few people manage to get there without much intelligence, talent, or determination, but they are the exception rather than the rule.


----------



## c0mfortably_numb

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Akathisia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'll spray it down with some cat scratch repellent._

 

I'm not sure about your cat, but the cat I had (ex has her now) wasn't phased at all by that repellent stuff, I think I actually herd her laughing when I sprayed it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Best bet would be to try and elevate the cord off the floor if possible, but if a cat wants something bad enough they will find a way to get it. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Also I would like to see some response to the safety concerns, and furthermore would like some of the research questions addressed. Where 37 pages deep now in this thread and no closer to any kind of truth or answers.


----------



## draudio

Okay, okay, some answers.

 You have to realize that I'm gonna feel a lot like a Dad finally explaining to his son that there ain't no Santa. That broken hearted lip droopin' response is likely what I'm gonna get, because the truth ain't nearly as fun as the hype and the ********.

 Do you know what? UL is not an insurance company, nor are they required by law. In fact, most everything in high-end audio is not UL.

 Secondly, conductors don't have to be made by fairy princesses, elves or Virtual Dynamics to be good. 

 Thirdly, the major cost of running a business is not the parts cost of the products that you make, in most cases. Many times what you pay for as consumers is ******** like UL that adds to cost beyond what consumers really need to pay. Let's look at a Power Three.

 First of all you've done pretty good with your pricing, somewhere around what we pay, so not bad. The next is that if you've got something against hot glue as a capsulating agent you should take that up with the hot glue capsulating society and not me. It was their frikken idea, but it worked well, so I went with it. The thing that I can't figure out here is what I am doing wrong.

 I have been trying for six years. Remember six years ago when Jude cut open my power three to find exactly the same thing that you just did! I was cool about it then, thought it was kinda neat, and I'm cool about it now, think it's kinda neat.

 So, what's so damn neat?  I was hoping you would realize that this cable has nothing extraordinary to it with exception of those little tiny beads that are all over your house by now!

 What fascinates me is what they do. Do you know that we have sold thousands, no kidding, literally thousands. I want to say, tens of thousands, but we didn't.


 So why didn't we? The reason why we haven't sold tens of thousands of these beautiful little cables is because people are looking for all the wrong things. They need to be listening instead, to the sound! What you'll hear is the sound of thousands of little tiny beads in a cable that arguably should do absolutely nothing for your sound, and yet, it does.

 The first time that I listened to this cable I was not in the business. I put it honestly up against power cords at ten times its cost from the most reputable High-End manufacturers. What I heard was a cleaner, clearer sound with a blacker background and a much more realistic presentation of the sound. Now, arguably a few of you don't agree, but I have been selling these little devices for six years and I have had literally thousands of awesome testimonials on what these little bearings and our technology of dynamic filtering actually does.

 Other companies have started to follow suit, big companies with great reputations are now doing what we started. They may do it differently than us, they may market better than us, they may be more liked than us, but we started it. I am proud of that.

 I didn't start the cone rack and footer industry, but I would like to think I was maybe the very first to really try to control vibration on an audio conductor. I have had some of the biggest names in the industry tell me that they were proud of me. Now, we are a little company in the world of high end audio, but we are doing some big things. I am glad you tore open my Power Three and showed that what I think is genius behind it. Simple, yes, but some of the best things in life are simple and genius.


----------



## Pars

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *draudio* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 So, what's so damn neat?  I was hoping you would realize that this cable has nothing extraordinary to it with exception of those little tiny beads that are all over your house by now!_

 

Well, I hope none of those tiny little beads, which from the description are probably *conductive*, never work their way into the business end of the cable and cause a short, because that could get exciting!


----------



## Edwood

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *draudio* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Okay, okay, some answers.

 You have to realize that I'm gonna feel a lot like a Dad finally explaining to his son that there ain't no Santa. That broken hearted lip droopin' response is likely what I'm gonna get, because the truth ain't nearly as fun as the hype and the ********.

**snip**

 I didn't start the cone rack and footer industry, but I would like to think I was maybe the very first to really try to control vibration on an audio conductor. I have had some of the biggest names in the industry tell me that they were proud of me. Now, we are a little company in the world of high end audio, but we are doing some big things. I am glad you tore open my Power Three and showed that what I think is genius behind it. Simple, yes, but some of the best things in life are simple and genius._

 

This post should have been the first response by your "boy" on page one. The fact that you do not see anything wrong with how he represented your company is a mistake IMO.

 But you can choose to run your company and direct your employees the way you want.

 And we will choose to buy products from companies we want.

 -Ed


----------



## Walie

I'm sorry, but if this Acoustic Chef is indeed the previously banned Matt Carter (god he was annoying), shouldn't he be banned as well?


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_After reading this thread, I can't wait to try their cables! I will resume my audio hobby..._

 

I think this is the most significant thing we can take from this thread


----------



## c0mfortably_numb

draudio;3772935 said:
			
		

> Quote:
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *draudio* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> ...


----------



## dvw

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pars* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well, I hope none of those tiny little beads, which from the description are probably *conductive*, never work their way into the business end of the cable and cause a short, because that could get exciting!_

 

Agreed. And according to Matt these are sand blast particle. Aren't they abrasive? Did VD do any safety study?

 This is where UL listing comes in to ensure the cable safety. The cost of certification isn't very expensive. All $5 power cord has it and I don't see why $150 cable don't. I am sure VD can amortize the cost to the cable.


----------



## Akathisia

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *draudio* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Secondly, conductors don't have to be made by fairy princesses, elves or Virtual Dynamics to be good._

 

I noticed you changed the description of the Power 3 to not show LiniPur conductors anymore. That was a concern of mine.

 The hot glue is not really the issue, it's more an issue of the incorrect cable routing in the IEC housing and the fact that I could not inspect the wire routing in the 3 prong housing. I think the hot glue is probably the one of the safest ways to seal the metal dust from the raw terminations.


----------



## c0mfortably_numb

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dvw* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Agreed. And according to Matt these are sand blast particle. Aren't they abrasive? Did VD do any safety study?_

 

If you can find out what media it is (it can be sand, glass, or metal) just do a google search + MSDS. The MSDS is the Material Safety Data Sheet lists all the possible side effects in coming into contact with said chemical or substance. 

 My guess would probably just be a mild lung irritant (purely guess) especially for any one with asthma and or allergies. I would not recommend vacuuming the material up either as most household vacuums don't come with HEPA filtration standard. All a vacuum will do is blow the particles back out into the air and possibly into a finer dust, also I would think sweeping would do the same thing.


----------



## dvw

I have one more question for DrAudio

https://www.virtualdynamics.ca/content.php?id=254

 Is this an UT test report or a Walters Forensic Lab Test report? Also will you be kind enough to post the entire report. I did not have a chance to read the full report. Thanks in advance.


----------



## dvw

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *c0mfortably_numb* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If you can find out what media it is (it can be sand, glass, or metal) just do a google search + MSDS. The MSDS is the Material Safety Data Sheet lists all the possible side effects in coming into contact with said chemical or substance. 

 My guess would probably just be a mild lung irritant (purely guess) especially for any one with asthma and or allergies. I would not recommend vacuuming the material up either as most household vacuums don't come with HEPA filtration standard. All a vacuum will do is blow the particles back out into the air and possibly into a finer dust, also I would think sweeping would do the same thing._

 

They're supposed to be iron or brass. My concern is it might seep into the power cable and cause a short. The abrasiveness could cause micro tear in the insulation and eventually can cause arcing or short (this could cause electrical shock to human touching it.)


----------



## c0mfortably_numb

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dvw* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_They're supposed to be iron or brass. My concern is it might seep into the power cable and cause a short. The abrasiveness could cause micro tear in the insulation and eventually can cause arcing or short (this could cause electrical shock to human touching it.)_

 

O yea I wasn't thinking that, I thought you meant from a health point lol...but yea I can see what your saying and that is a scary thought. Thus why I think allot of people where asking about the silly UL thing, and or safety studies.


----------



## gz76

Hmm, if they're abrasive by nature, then that is a valid concern!


----------



## Edwood

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Walie* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm sorry, but if this Acoustic Chef is indeed the previously banned Matt Carter (god he was annoying), shouldn't he be banned as well?




 I think this is the most significant thing we can take from this thread_

 

So the old Matt Carter from here got a job at VD?

 -Ed


----------



## evilking

Maybe Rick just hasn't seen/read all of Matt's posts?

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*Really what did you expect?* Haven't been dissecting any ~$150 power cords lately have you..? The power 3 give away was a gift, *a story* about how dynamic filtering can effect the sound._

 


 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Only if I could post picks of the cables we dissected from trade.. *So who wants to buy my gold chain cable for $500 bucks? *It has $400 worth of gold in it, and platinum braided shielding. *Who cares what it sounds like, it has expensive parts.*_

 


 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The Basic and Power 3 tell the story of how you can take the simplest wire and by simply applying even sandblasting metal to the surrounding wire you can turn the once $50 cable into a $5000+ cable. If you want to build your own and hear the difference go right ahead. *I really don't care, would save us a lot of trouble considering we don’t make a cent off them anyway. After you hear the difference you can crawl back to us begging for the real deal. Go ahead, dissect a David, I dare you.* *What's the big deal here? again what do you expect for $150 dollars? Or in most all your cases, FREE. *BTW this is nothing new… Jude did this exact same thing years ago, and it's still around, people are still buying them, you know why?.. Because they sound dam good, and get substantially better as you move up our line. *If any of you knew a thing or two* you would know all cable companies are full of ****, and that Virtual Dynamics are as honest as they come, why? *Because we are not a cable company,* we are a technology company whos goal is to teach and educate._

 


 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*Ok so what would you expect for free then?* That's exactly what this guy said, and look what become of that._

 


 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*But guess what, it wasn't..? Boohoo go make ur own.*_

 


 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Our cables are rigorously tested. The comment was regarding irrelevant cosmetic issues. *We try to do something nice and this is what we get?* http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f97/so...er-3-a-283821/ Most here have no grounds to comment on maturity levels? You honestly think this whole thread passes a grade 2 level?_

 


 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What profit? Sandblasting is only used in the power 3 and Basic. *Lets dissect another cable shall we?* (Picture of cable workstation, cut for space)_

 


 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*We carry exceptional customer service including myself.* Just read around. But the fact is *we aren't talking about customers here* but rather MOT competitors, skeptics jumping at the opportunity to support them selves and they're beliefs, and *people with nothing better to do.* Wrong again buddy. Its size is to support the graduals that hold such a dramatic influence on the overall sound quality of the cable through the absorption of mechanically induced vibrations. https://www.virtualdynamics.ca/videos/_

 


 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes but does it sound better..?_

 


 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You want to know what real BS marketing is? Over priced market hyped pieces slapped together in a cable design that makes no sence what so ever. A cable that has no thought or true understanding to it, but a just a bunch of recognizable brand names.._

 


 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*Do you really want to know what a hospital grade cable is?* It's simply cable that has its male nickel plated so when they wash the walls, solution won't drip and corrode the terminates. Now how conductive is nickel? If you would rather not have the ends potted with glue, this can be done if you have some kind of phobia to the stuff? But I warn you, you'll only be taking away from its durability._

 


 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*Doesn't UL only certify up to 10 gauge? If so you need to ask yourself why. and what is UL really...*That's why we ProtecX treat our ends. https://www.virtualdynamics.ca/Protecx/_

 


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*AAnnyway, thanks for the ruckus guys, was fun but I gota go sell some cables to real audiophiles now. I'm sure out of all this at least couple intelligent people read this (AKA potential customers). So, thanks guys. Cya! *_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*Na man, the cable's awsome. If you heard it you would know this. And by the way I'm not a fan of framing poor little kitty cats, shame on you.*_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ *Brass *(Pics of various stages of manufacture) *Bronze *(Pics of various stages of manufacture) *Fines *(Pics of various stages of manufacture) *Sand blast *(Pics of various stages of manufacture) *Master LE! *(Pics of various stages of manufacture) *Busy bees *(Pics of various stages of manufacture) *The almighty *(Pics of various stages of manufacture) *Our very own Linipur conductors. *(Pics of various stages of manufacture) (Pics of various stages of manufacture) (Pics of various stages of manufacture) (Pics of various stages of manufacture) *Click here to see all*._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Cool Quick question, how did you burn-in the LE? Did you let your system just run 24/7?_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Now you need to try some stabilant 22 on your headphone jack. HOME PAGE -- STABILANT_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
Give it up, man. Get someone else to speak for your company. See ya, Steve

 

*Let something other then your ass speak for you?*_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*Yep, fun fun fun..* *Now that the water's calm, you have any questions about our cables and their designs, feel free.*_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yup Check it out. (Pics of cables) (Pics of cables) Copper tin braid grounded over mag with dialectic and SUPER ferrite shields._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*Akathisia, mostly but not everyone.* Good job though! *Too bad once people actually hear our cables all this will mean nothing, and in the end only helped us.*_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*It means you have too much time on your hands.*_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f97/poor-skeptics-278199/_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If he gets the time, I think Rick might stop by to answer a couple questions._

 


 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*You know I don't like to look at myself as a sales person, or some kind of marketer.* I am here to share my experiences and opinions with others. As most of you might know I lived on this forum for about 5 years before becoming Acoustic Chef. I hang out here still because I adore this community. I became a member of the VD team because I had too. After receiving one of their power cables to play with I fell in love and fought for ~6months to come hang out with the awesome crew here at VD, and I must say I am loving every second of it, while truly living the dream. Rick is the coolest guy you will ever meet and his cables are out of this world! As I type this Rick is skipping around the room modeling his new artic cat gear showing off the advances in ass protection. Now, Ragging on the cables is like ragging on my wife or kids because you think their ugly. And I REALLY don’t appreciate people hacking them to pieces and having their mutilated parts displayed in such a manner. *I’m honest, and a true member of the community. Appreciate it.*_

 



 Click the arrow (after "Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef*") to go the original post to get the proper context and formatting.

 I've highlighted comments that worried/angered me in some way, in bold.

 I've tried very hard to refrain from commenting (oh, it's hard), but honestly, I wouldn't want Acoustic Chef representing my firm on any internet forum or in any public place.



 EK


----------



## jgonino

I think its time to break out the banhammer again on Mr. Carter. This has gone far enough. 

 Thanks Rick for at least trying to give us the info we needed, but it was to little to late. Time to face the music...

 Also, I just wanted to mention that before this whole thread started, I was very earnest to win one of the contests so I could see if all of this hype was real. I wanted to know if a cable filled with little bead things could really sound better than a stock one.

 I am undecided as to whether cables really can increase or change sound quality, and this thread has not changed my mind.


----------



## slwiser

I am still enjoying my Virtual Dynamics cables and will keep on using them. Maybe even get some more later at the right time and price.


----------



## Uncle Erik

Dr. Audio:

 I read your responses with interest. First, why not obtain a UL certification? As you state, most of the aftermarket power cord industry does not carry the rating. Why not Virtual Dynamics? The cost would be fully deductible, so you could, possibly, keep even _more_ of your profits.

 Further, UL is an internationally recognized testing lab. Having their certification would be an absolute advantage over your competition. If you had UL certification, you would be able to advertise it to your advantage and, hopefully increase sales and increase market share. Isn't that what you want for your business? Personally, I've sought certifications and degrees to put myself at an advantage over other people in my field. In my business, I do what I can to put myself at an advantage over the competition. I cannot understand why you would not want to give Virtual Dynamics an absolute, internationally recognized, advantage over considerable competition in aftermarket cables.

 As for your profit after overhead... well, that's a slippery figure. You can build all sorts of cost into overhead, such as your own salary. You could even put your salary high enough so that the company makes only a slight profit. Or you could roll your car, housing, meals, various expenses, and so on, into the company. Wise moves for tax reasons, but not definitive proof that you're putting X amount of dollars into a product. How are we to know you're not expensing every meal and your morning coffee into the product? Like I said, the profit is a slippery thing... if you ever notice, no Hollywood movie _ever_ makes money. Yet they keep making them.

 Please tell us about your test equipment, testing facility, and methods used for testing. Please do not reveal proprietary information. I can't reveal information about my clients, but I can tell you that I do work for them with Microsoft Word and a Pentium 4. So, please tell us the makes, models and other associated equipment used for testing your cables. Photos would be great. If you use an outside lab, please tell us the name of the lab, where it is located and a contact who can confirm that testing was performed.


----------



## Febs

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Large VD advertisement snipped_

 

I've reported your blatant violation of Head-Fi's policies regarding Members of the Trade to the moderating staff.

 draudio, I understand the point that you made earlier about how we can all learn from our mistakes. However, we can only learn from our mistakes if we recognize that they _*are*_ mistakes. Mr. Carter has apparently not yet had that realization. With every single post he makes, he causes irreparable harm to reputation of your company.


----------



## Vul Kuolun

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Uncle Erik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Please tell us about your test equipment, testing facility, and methods used for testing. Please do not reveal proprietary information. I can't reveal information about my clients, but I can tell you that I do work for them with Microsoft Word and a Pentium 4. So, please tell us the makes, models and other associated equipment used for testing your cables. Photos would be great. If you use an outside lab, please tell us the name of the lab, where it is located and a contact who can confirm that testing was performed._

 

x2. Who cares about Matt Carter?

 Maybe you can introduce us your research and developemend departement. Sure you have some leading authorities under contract to achieve the amazing results that allow you to offer such a finely stepped product line, based on electrical phenomenons that are up to now unknown to major audio equipement developers and conventionally trained EE's.

 Until you do, i'll construct the hypothesis that you maybe don't have a r&d. Maybe you're just randomly cobbling together multiple ineffective ingredients.
 But that's just an assumption. I might be wrong.


----------



## evilking

Properly handled, this thread could be less than half the size it is now and would probably already be on the second page.

 Over 17 thousand views...



 EK


----------



## ethant

Quote:


 Until you do, i'll construct the hypothesis that you don't have a r&d. Maybe you're just randomly cobbling together multiple ineffective ingredients.
 But that's just an assumption. I might be wrong. 
 

x2

 It's funny that in multiple posts the company owner has yet to actually provide any real information. Many of us are very curious as to how these cables defy the laws of physics.


----------



## gritzcolin

Its all about garden hose, hot glue and magical wishes, thats how they defy physics.


----------



## c0mfortably_numb

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gritzcolin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Its all about garden hose, hot glue and magical wishes, thats how they defy physics._

 

Don't forget the pixie dust


----------



## gritzcolin

Wires forged in Mt. Olympus using our mythical wire spinning process
 Hosing from the Hanging gardens of Babylon
 Techflex braided from the most resilient of Ogre Hair
 The very same terminations God uses on his RSA Apache Power Cord
 Magical metal beads from one of the pouches of the greatest Wizards ever to live.
 Protein colloid glues to keep everything together.
 3M Electrical Tape.


----------



## dvw

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Vul Kuolun* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_x2. Who cares about Matt Carter?

 Maybe you can introduce us your research and developemend departement. Sure you have some leading authorities under contract to achieve the amazing results that allow you to offer such a finely stepped product line, based on electrical phenomenons that are up to now unknown to major audio equipement developers and conventionally trained EE's.

 Until you do, i'll construct the hypothesis that you maybe don't have a r&d. Maybe you're just randomly cobbling together multiple ineffective ingredients.
 But that's just an assumption. I might be wrong._

 

Actually Draudio has been very candid about all his claim.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *draudio* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Okay, okay, some answers.

 You have to realize that I'm gonna feel a lot like a Dad finally explaining to his son that there ain't no Santa. That broken hearted lip droopin' response is likely what I'm gonna get, because the truth ain't nearly as fun as the hype and the ********.

 .....

 So, what's so damn neat?  I was hoping you would realize that this cable has nothing extraordinary to it with exception of those little tiny beads that are all over your house by now!
_

 

Basically, the only thing that VD is different is the sandblasting beads. All the scientific stuff is just made up for fun. 

 At least, the owner of VD is honest.


----------



## manaox2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_After reading this thread, I can't wait to try their cables! I will resume my audio hobby..._

 

Well, it actually gained one... <3 Patrick!


----------



## spookygonk

Do we know how the cat is now?


----------



## Akathisia

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *spookygonk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Do we know how the cat is now?_

 

Virgil is fine. He'll be one in April, and hopefully he will grow out of 'stretching' on the furniture.


----------



## j0shimi

What evilking said on page 38 is right, it is worrying.

 I work in a pretty big company and I'm close to the boss but believe me, if I acted up I would soon know about it. Bad news spreads a lot faster than good news.


----------



## draudio

Hello,

 As we get more into this topic I would become more convicted that further conversation would be considered self promoting, because as i answer these questions I will be telling you about all of the wonderful things that we do at Virtual Dynamics. I am allowed to do this in our own sponsor forum, so I'm off for the weekend, and we'll see you there on Monday. Have a nice weekend everybody.

Virtual Dynamics - Head-Fi: Covering Headphones, Earphones and Portable Audio


----------



## kpeezy

So... Acoustic Chef will be banned, correct? I thought that once you are banned, you are banned for good. That's been the case with friends of mine. Is there something special about his case?


----------



## OverlordXenu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kpeezy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So... Acoustic Chef will be banned, correct? I thought that once you are banned, you are banned for good. That's been the case with friends of mine. Is there something special about his case?_

 

Cha-ching!


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *draudio* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Do you know what? UL is not an insurance company, nor are they required by law. In fact, most everything in high-end audio is not UL._

 

Anyone using equipment that isn't UL listed should check with their homeowners insurance carrier to make sure that non-UL stereo equipment won't void their coverage in case of a fire. It doesn't matter how the cable sounds if it is responsible for a huge financial loss.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## fraseyboy

Off topic: Does this thread make it right for me to sell the VD cable I won?


----------



## GreatDane

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fraseyboy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Off topic: Does this thread make it right for me to sell the VD cable I won?_

 

How much do you think that cable is worth?


----------



## immtbiker

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fraseyboy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Off topic: Does this thread make it right for me to sell the VD cable I won?_

 

Even though I have certain reservations created by this thread, I have 2 Power 3's and they do a good job providing power to my components.

 No reason to sell yours (just keep it away from the neighborhood cats 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ).


----------



## fraseyboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GreatDane* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How much do you think that cable is worth?_

 

I'm sure some people would be willing to pay $100'ish for it.

 Yeah, but I don't use my PC for music any more so I have no use for it.


----------



## Tech2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fraseyboy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm sure some people would be willing to pay $100'ish for it.

 Yeah, but I don't use my PC for music any more so I have no use for it._

 

Use it for your Little Dot?


----------



## colonelkernel8

Its not a power cord, its a digital cord. Which I find essentially highway robbery, considering that is is physically impossible for an expensive digital cable can make any difference at all over any other piece of conductor (granted the conductor is shielded properly).


----------



## Mher6

I've been following this thread since day 1, and thought I'd finally give my 2 cents.

 Yes, VD has been "avoiding" if you will some topics of discussion, Acoustic Chef has acted immaturely in certain posts, BUT, regardless, I still do support Virtual Dynamics as a high-end cable manufacturer.

 The reason you ask?

 About 3 weeks ago, I was skeptical of the improvements VD claimed of their power cord line. So, to find out for myself, I contacted Acoustic Chef and asked if I could loan one of their cables. Guess what? He didn't question my intentions or hesitate to loan me their highly regarded Nite 3.0 power cable. Three weeks later, and I'm hooked. I've heard the differences (or placebo, if you want to look at it that way). I'm shocked that Acoustic Chef posted some of the comments he did, but, I'd like to remind everyone that he was very professional and beyond generous to me during our one on one conversations, and this makes me believe that he has good intentions.

 If anyone is interested in how the Nite sounds...

 The greatest improvement is in the body/bass of the sound. Bass is more presence but also extremely tight, and for the first time the Nite is adding depth into my music. More specifically, cymbal crashes are not blended into the overall sound as much, they are defined into the right/left channel (which may or may not be favorable, depending on the user). Overall, the Nite blows my signal reference cable out of the water (that is not to say that the signal cable isn't a great price/performance cable).


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fraseyboy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Off topic: Does this thread make it right for me to sell the VD cable I won?_

 

I know you're a young guy but you're smart enough to know the answer to that question. If not:

 -- You were given a cable that, despite what some here may lead you to believe, is a good piece of equipment and you will get good use out of eventually.

 -- You were given a cable that, if really as bad as some would make you believe, you would sell to someone else so that they could have a bad piece of equipment, too?


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *colonelkernel8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Its not a power cord, its a digital cord. Which I find essentially highway robbery, considering that is is physically impossible for an expensive digital cable can make any difference at all over any other piece of conductor (granted the conductor is shielded properly)._

 

So sad that you actually believe that. Because I did too until I actually got a nice one (and you can read some of my old posts here which proves that I was ignorant to cables), and then a much better one from Virtual Dynamics which is one of the best pieces of equipment in my system. But if you want to stick to those ideals, it's really unfortunate because you will never know how truly amazing a headphone system (or any hi-fi system) can actually sound with high-end interconnects, power cords, and power conditioners. And if you came over to my house and listened to my system with a stock digital cable and then to my Master LE 2.0, your balls would be doing backflips. And if you couldn't hear the difference, you'd either be deaf or need a lot more experience learning about high-end audio and training your ears.


----------



## The Monkey

Recommended reading for certain cable manufacturers.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *The Monkey* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Recommended reading for certain cable manufacturers._

 

That's great reading and good advice. But something tells me that the response you might get would be, "Well we're a Canadian company."


----------



## Pars

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So sad that you actually believe that. Because I did too until I actually got a nice one (and you can read some of my old posts here which proves that I was ignorant to cables), and then a much better one from Virtual Dynamics which is one of the best pieces of equipment in my system. But if you want to stick to those ideals, it's really unfortunate because you will never know how truly amazing a headphone system (or any hi-fi system) can actually sound with high-end interconnects, power cords, and power conditioners. And if you came over to my house and listened to my system with a stock digital cable and then to my Master LE 2.0, your balls would be doing backflips. And if you couldn't hear the difference, you'd either be deaf or need a lot more experience learning about high-end audio and training your ears._

 

Do a Google on "SPDIF sucks" or look at this to see why your digital cable might make a difference. And note that if the interface was done properly, that it shouldn't make one bit of difference.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pars* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Do a Google on "SPDIF sucks" or look at this to see why your digital cable might make a difference. And note that if the interface was done properly, that it shouldn't make one bit of difference._

 

Yep. Really great info on that site. The author is quite intelligent and explains everything very well. I've been saying for months now (in posts) how the clock signal is carried as analog. But then you just get the ignorant ones who don't bother doing any research on SPDIF and always say, "It makes no difference what cable you use. Digital is digital." But they too will eventually learn, just as we did.


----------



## Pars

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yep. Great info. I've been saying for months now (in posts) how the clock signal is carried as analog. But then you just get the ignorant ones who don't bother doing any research on SPDIF and always say, "It makes no difference what cable you use. Digital is digital."_

 

That's just it... I wasn't validating changing the digital cable to "fix" the problem (well, other than a good 75 ohm cable with proper BNCs, and min. 1.5m in length). That is a band-aid... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 You apparently missed (quite) a bit...


----------



## The Monkey

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's great reading and good advice. But something tells me that the response you might get would be, "Well we're a Canadian company." 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Oh, Canada!


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pars* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's just it... I wasn't validating changing the digital cable to "fix" the problem (well, other than a good 75 ohm cable with proper BNCs, and min. 1.5m in length). That is a band-aid... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 You apparently missed (quite) a bit..._

 

Well some of us can't afford $50,000 hi-fi systems. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The author's explanation really quantifies why a computer-based transport is so lousy, as it injects so much noise into the signal. What I can't seem to figure out yet is why my tinfoil mod has had the biggest impact on the sonics, moreso than the upgrade from an $80 digital cable to a boutique $2,000 digital cable. One member mentioned that it is essentially creating a Faraday cage around the cable, but it seems to be filtering out noise (and thus reducing jitter) from inside the computer itself.

 I agree with you. S/PDIF is a lousy interface (compared to DSD) but it is still the industry standard so we have to make the best of it for now. The best solutions are the all-in-one-box transport (CD player)/DAC/high-end master clock units that are $10K and up. But unfortunately this is not convenient; media libraries have revolutionized the way we access our music. So it's a trade off.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *The Monkey* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Oh, Canada!_

 

I'm so glad you have all of our best interests at heart. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The Monkey strikes again!


----------



## Ted Goldie

I like my Base Power cord which I bought for half price when VD was having the sale at Christmas. It is their cheapest model and I and my two sons feel just sounds better after several tests. This cord is very similar to the Power 3 cord, but about half the price. I know many here do not believe in power cords making a difference but I am a believer. I did some blind tests with my sons and they agreed with what I thought as well. I realize that it has sand blasting material in it, but it does sound better than the cord that came with my Darkvoice amp. Everything sounds more defined and the background for lack of a better word sounds blacker. Oh ya I do not have a cat so I hope the cable will last.


----------



## Pars

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well some of us can't afford $50,000 hi-fi systems. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The author's explanation really quantifies why a computer-based transport is so lousy, as it injects so much noise into the signal. What I can't seem to figure out yet is why my tinfoil mod has had the biggest impact on the sonics, moreso than the upgrade from an $80 digital cable to a boutique $2,000 digital cable. One member mentioned that it is essentially creating a Faraday cage around the cable, but it seems to be filtering out noise (and thus reducing jitter) from inside the computer itself.

 I agree with you. S/PDIF is a lousy interface (compared to DSD) but it is still the industry standard so we have to make the best of it for now. The best solutions are the all-in-one-box transport (CD player)/DAC/high-end master clock units that are $10K and up. But unfortunately this is not convenient; media libraries have revolutionized the way we access our music. So it's a trade off._

 

Good god... I didn't realize this thing was $2K... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I know I can't afford a $50K system (well, if I want to stay married). Let me just say that with a bit (OK, maybe quite a bit) of digging, there are alot more effective ways of solving your problem than plunking down $2K or whatever on a "special" cable. Only then to make a system change and find out the the "synergy" is not there anymore. And tinfoil... 

 Look at it objectively. Ask yourself, if you told a friend of yours (non-audio person), that you just spent $2K for a cable... would they look at you like you were crazy? Most people I know would if you told them you spent $2K for an entire "CD player"!


----------



## immtbiker

Last year, a bunch of us passed the word and bought a bunch of new Power 3's from Audiogon for $100.


----------



## dvw

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well some of us can't afford $50,000 hi-fi systems. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The author's explanation really quantifies why a computer-based transport is so lousy, as it injects so much noise into the signal. What I can't seem to figure out yet is why my tinfoil mod has had the biggest impact on the sonics, moreso than the upgrade from an $80 digital cable to a boutique $2,000 digital cable. One member mentioned that it is essentially creating a Faraday cage around the cable, but it seems to be filtering out noise (and thus reducing jitter) from inside the computer itself.

 I agree with you. S/PDIF is a lousy interface (compared to DSD) but it is still the industry standard so we have to make the best of it for now. The best solutions are the all-in-one-box transport (CD player)/DAC/high-end master clock units that are $10K and up. But unfortunately this is not convenient; media libraries have revolutionized the way we access our music. So it's a trade off._

 

No need to spend $50K or $2K for the cable. Here's the chip that will do the job.

http://www.cirrus.com/en/pubs/proDat.../CS4350_F1.pdf


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pars* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Good god... I didn't realize this thing was $2K... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I know I can't afford a $50K system (well, if I want to stay married). Let me just say that with a bit (OK, maybe quite a bit) of digging, there are alot more effective ways of solving your problem than plunking down $2K or whatever on a "special" cable. Only then to make a system change and find out the the "synergy" is not there anymore. And tinfoil... 

 Look at it objectively. Ask yourself, if you told a friend of yours (non-audio person), that you just spent $2K for a cable... would they look at you like you were crazy? Most people I know would if you told them you spent $2K for an entire "CD player"!_

 






 If you read the thread, you'll see that I won it from a contest they had. I would never have that much to spend on a cable, even though they sell it for half of that price. But after spending a good amount of time so far listening with it, I would never want to be without it. This is one reason I can't upgrade to an Azure 840c player/DAC yet; the expense of the player plus interconnects plus power cord is way more than I will have any time soon. Luckily my recent mod has made my system sound so much better than I ever thought it capable of, so I'm perfectly content with it the way it is right now.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dvw* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No need to spend $50K or $2K for the cable. Here's the chip that will do the job.

http://www.cirrus.com/en/pubs/proDat.../CS4350_F1.pdf_

 

That would be great if the dynamic range were as wide as the PCM1794. A lot of people listen to audio higher than redbook. But it looks like a promising chip.


----------



## OverlordXenu

Whoop whoop whoop.


----------



## Febs

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *immtbiker* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_OverlordXenu, please edit your post:

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f21/do...forums-227350/_

 

His post does not violate that proscription: "We do not engage in the discussion of double-blind testing (DBT) *of cables* on this site."

 That said, Xenu is reaching a conclusion that is not supported by the study, and the whole issue is not relevant to the topic of this thread.


----------



## Sovkiller

.


----------



## immtbiker

Febs, the sticky clearly states that any mention of DBT testing is not allowed and in OverlordXenu's post it refers to DBT testing of SACD vs. Redbook no matter what the conclusion is, it was mentioned and linked.

 I could have deleted the post, but instead, I politely asked him to edit it, and once it was done, I would have removed my post.


----------



## hciman77

...


----------



## immtbiker

True, and I have PM'd Elrod-Tom for clarification of this because it also states that it is for the cable forum *and* other forums. It also states:

_We do this not because DBT is or is not an legitimate means for decision-making. Rather, in our experience we find that these discussions repeatedly break down rather quickly into nasty circular arguments by competing camps of true believers. We've come to the conclusion that there's no particularly worthwhile end to be served by this line of discussion, and as such we're asking that the membership not engage in it.

 Thanks..._

 Also, if you look up at the top of the page ^ you will see the name of this forum includes: 

*Cables, Power, Tweaks, Speakers, Accessories (DBT-Free Forum)*

 DBT-Forum! We are in *this *forum, are we not?

 If I am wrong, I will gladly delete my comment and you guys can duke it out.


----------



## jp11801

just out of curiousity Does Matt Carter=Acoustic Chef for sure?

 BTW hasn't this thread run it's usefull course at this point having been rerailed to links to a DBT study that the poster apparently did not even read, had he he would have seen his conclusion was not even close to definative. 

 People all cables have significant mark up and in relation to the actual components in your system do not provide the same dollar for dollar improvement a speaker, headphone, source, amp can provide. But once you have all the peices in place then playing with cables can be a effective way to complete the sound of your system. 
 Also just for #$%^s and giggles there is no nuetral, it's a term I often refer to for lack of a better word but everything in the audio chain puts it's handprint on the sound (some more audible than others). 

 Yes this cable reeks of mediocre construction and parts, all you Marxists (BTW I love all my Marxist brothers and Sisters) out there don't get it we live in a market economy. Items are worth what people pay for them not a penny more or less. Do you think the speakers you bought don't have a 100% markup at MSRP? ALso the $500 dollar headphones you just bought also have the same markup (for the most part). I worked in reatil in the 80s and paid landed cost (cost plus supply chain costs) for any item I wanted in the store and my AKGS were about half of retail.

 I can not for the life of me understand why cables makers are singled out in this way. Most things are overpriced based on raw cost of components. Look at most of the boutique amps we buy they are marked up to nosebleeding propotions very few mind though. One thing that is certain most of the people equate price with quality and often overlook excellent debateably better products at lower costs simply due to the mental effect of price.


----------



## colonelkernel8

Why does this forum feel its necessary to censor the audio "skeptics" true ace in the pocket? DBT, which is essentially the only true means of testing audio equipment. Because it makes cable believers mad? Unbelievable. Nonsensical "OMG THIS CABLE IS AMAZING, THE DIFFERENCE IS NIGHT AND DAY, THE BACKGROUND IS REALLY BLACK" makes me pretty mad.

 That said, I will not continue to travel further down the path speaking about digital, because the $2000 digital cable isn't going to solve the limitations of SP/DIF, it isn't going to do anything but transmit the same old digital signal to your DAC. Also, this thread was more dealing with the shoddy construction of Power 3 cables.


----------



## colonelkernel8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jp11801* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes this cable reeks of mediocre construction and parts, all you Marxists (BTW I love all my Marxist brothers and Sisters) out there don't get it we live in a market economy. Items are worth what people pay for them not a penny more or less. Do you think the speakers you bought don't have a 100% markup at MSRP? ALso the $500 dollar headphones you just bought also have the same markup (for the most part). I worked in reatil in the 80s and paid landed cost (cost plus supply chain costs) for any item I wanted in the store and my AKGS were about half of retail._

 

At least my headphones, CD player, DAC, etc etc were all built well, and weren't straight up lied about in the marketing department. The markups were also more justified given these companies actually perform R&D and have other justified expenses. (At least more justified than VD's expenses, considering they don't actually perform real R&D).


----------



## hciman77

...


----------



## jp11801

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *colonelkernel8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_At least my headphones, CD player, DAC, etc etc were all built well, and weren't straight up lied about in the marketing department. The markups were also more justified given these companies actually perform R&D and have other justified expenses. (At least more justified than VD's expenses, considering they don't actually perform real R&D)._

 

 this is not universally true as I believe I made clear in my post. Do you really think that most of the cottage industry amp makers perform wjatever you consider to be actual R&D, some do most may not. Unless you call trial and error at the customer expense R&D. Also claiming that VD does not do *real* R&D is a claim you need to qualify. Do they have an R&D group and does that group do research, if so they they do R&D, to better set the standard for our converstaion Wiki refers to R&D as "creative work undertaken on a systematic basis in order to increase the stock of knowledge, including knowledge of man, culture and society, and the use of this stock of knowledge to devise new applications". They may very well do that for all you know?? They may do more or less of it than most amp makers here again we do not really know.
 Also yes if you buy components that are made by either large consumer audio companies or companies that market to musicians yes the profit margins are slightly thinner but I have seen 50%-100% MU on amps, speakers and sources in midfi shops. If you were to buy from a high end boutique manufacter then in most cases you are paying a higher MU, at least that has been my experience.

 I do agree with your though that we as a community should refrain from statements like "night and day difference..." most cables and for that matter sources offer an incremental difference at least to these ears.


----------



## gotchaforce

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jp11801* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_this is not universally true as I believe I made clear in my post. Do you really think that most of the cottage industry amp makers perform wjatever you consider to be actual R&D, some do most may not. Unless you call trial and error at the customer expense R&D. Also claiming that VD does not do *real* R&D is a claim you need to qualify. Do they have an R&D group and does that group do research, if so they they do R&D, to better set the standard for our converstaion Wiki refers to R&D as "creative work undertaken on a systematic basis in order to increase the stock of knowledge, including knowledge of man, culture and society, and the use of this stock of knowledge to devise new applications". They may very well do that for all you know?? They may do more or less of it than most amp makers here again we do not really know.
 Also yes if you buy components that are made by either large consumer audio companies or companies that market to musicians yes the profit margins are slightly thinner but I have seen 50%-100% MU on amps, speakers and sources in midfi shops. If you were to buy from a high end boutique manufacter then in most cases you are paying a higher MU, at least that has been my experience.

 I do agree with your though that we as a community should refrain from statements like "night and day difference..." most cables and for that matter sources offer an incremental difference at least to these ears._

 

Who are the cottage industry amp makers? Theres some small companies out there that build amps on existing technology, but companies like plinius, theta, NAD, krell, etc etc all have R&D thats pretty extensive


----------



## dvw

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *draudio* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Okay, okay, some answers.

 You have to realize that I'm gonna feel a lot like a Dad finally explaining to his son that there ain't no Santa. That broken hearted lip droopin' response is likely what I'm gonna get, because the truth ain't nearly as fun as the hype and the ********.


 So, what's so damn neat?  I was hoping you would realize that this cable has nothing extraordinary to it with exception of those little tiny beads that are all over your house by now!
_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jp11801* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Also claiming that VD does not do *real* R&D is a claim you need to qualify._

 

You can find the full post of draudio in this thread. Basically, there is no speed of light, electron acceleration etc.


----------



## jp11801

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gotchaforce* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Who are the cottage industry amp makers? Theres some small companies out there that build amps on existing technology, but companies like plinius, theta, NAD, krell, etc etc all have R&D thats pretty extensive_

 

agreed and thanks for the clarification, yes the above listed companies are large and without a doubt have a qualified R&D staff.

 I was speaking in the context of ampbuilders in our community, many are 1 to a just a few person operations that do not have the resources for an R&D staff.


----------



## Uncle Erik

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jp11801* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_agreed and thanks for the clarification, yes the above listed companies are large and without a doubt have a qualified R&D staff.

 I was speaking in the context of ampbuilders in our community, many are 1 to a just a few person operations that do not have the resources for an R&D staff._

 

The difference between amps and cables is vast.

 For one, standard test equipment (e.g. oscilloscopes) are used and accepted as a valid means of testing them. Try to test a cable and there is wild-eyed handwaving about the illegitimacy of such tests and screams about the delicacy of one's ears. We have to take what they hear on pure faith and testimonials.

 When the innards of such a product turn out to be ordinary house wiring inside a garden hose, people tend to doubt the claims and testimonials. With an amp, you can do a parts count. You can test it. Not to say every builder is on the level - there's one who charges premium prices for amps that clearly are not.

 But testing is the acid test of any electronic product. Virtual Dynamics is welcome to share their R&D here, but choose not to. Draw your own conclusions. Most amp makers will rattle off their stats and talk about the circuit.

 This is not so much a cost:benefit analysis of cables but a question of their legitimacy.


----------



## jp11801

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Uncle Erik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The difference between amps and cables is vast.

 For one, standard test equipment (e.g. oscilloscopes) are used and accepted as a valid means of testing them. Try to test a cable and there is wild-eyed handwaving about the illegitimacy of such tests and screams about the delicacy of one's ears. We have to take what they hear on pure faith and testimonials.

 When the innards of such a product turn out to be ordinary house wiring inside a garden hose, people tend to doubt the claims and testimonials. With an amp, you can do a parts count. You can test it. Not to say every builder is on the level - there's one who charges premium prices for amps that clearly are not.

 But testing is the acid test of any electronic product. Virtual Dynamics is welcome to share their R&D here, but choose not to. Draw your own conclusions. Most amp makers will rattle off their stats and talk about the circuit.

 This is not so much a cost:benefit analysis of cables but a question of their legitimacy._

 

I am going to agree to disagree with you


----------



## dvw

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Uncle Erik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 For one, standard test equipment (e.g. oscilloscopes) are used and accepted as a valid means of testing them. Try to test a cable and there is wild-eyed handwaving about the illegitimacy of such tests and screams about the delicacy of one's ears. We have to take what they hear on pure faith and testimonials.
_

 

Actually, cables are tested and modeled regularly in communication; and standards and specification are made based on these tests. For example; Cat3, Cat5, Cat5e and now Cat6 cable. USB, HDMI cables are all specified. If you check Belden, every cables that they sell has a specification. Without a specification, it will be near impossible to design any kind of equipment. 

 It is only the boutique cables that are not tested.


----------



## hciman77

...


----------



## yotacowboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *colonelkernel8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_At least my headphones, CD player, DAC, etc etc were all built well, and weren't straight up lied about in the marketing department. The markups were also more justified given these companies actually perform R&D and have other justified expenses. (At least more justified than VD's expenses, considering they don't actually perform real R&D)._

 

Mark-ups are there TO MAKE MONEY. That. is. it.

 Profit.

 R&D costs are passed DIRECTLY on to the retailers, and further, on to you. R&D is not part of a mark-up. it is part of the cost of operating a business. Any company has the right to charge WHAT THE MARKET WILL BEAR for any product or service. Justification of R&D costs is based on increased sales, decreased costs or a combination of both. NOT based on whether some dude endlessly posting away on an internet forum "thinks" it's justified because he can quote some measurement.

 Marketing IS lying. Everything you buy has been marked up and marketed. If you don't want mark-ups, and hate being lied to, make things yourself, or don't buy anything at all. It really is that simple. If you're worried about being ripped off, caveat emptor. Due diligence is YOUR responsibility as a consumer, not the manufacturer's. For whatever reason, you seem to think that the audio world functions (or should function) outside the realm of a market driven economy. this is an incorrect assumption.

 Your precious headphones are severely marked up. The numbers on the back of the box are pure marketing... 20-20,000Hz? 101dB @ 1mW? These are meaningless numbers - and you should know that given your posting history.

 The actual material costs and manufacturing costs for your CD player are likely less than 1/6th the price that you paid for it. You get "ripped off" with EVERYTHING YOU BUY.


----------



## slwiser

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yotacowboy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 You get "ripped off" with EVERYTHING YOU BUY._

 

You know something, I have to disagree with this statement even thought it looks so reasonable on the surface. If I attempt to make something and charge myself my rate that I get at my work then everything I have purchase at discounted retail prices is a bargain. Even those so-called over priced cables ever one is talking about. Yea, it is nice if you are not doing anything else, just sitting around doing nothing, having someone else support you like parents or some government program but to think that just building something would result in a bargain is wrong. What is my time worth? A whole lot more than what it would cost me to build a cable equal to one of the items like a Virtual Dynamics David "R" cable for about 300$. How long does it take to go out and get the materials? How much time do I take considering the design features to put into it? Physically how much time does it take to weave a cable into those intricate patterns around a cotton center and then wrap each them them with the appropriate wrapping before finishing it? How about the time it takes to set up a jig so that I could even begin to weave a proper cable? It is all about how much you value your time. This is what determines whether something is a bargain in my book. It would appear that some do not value their time as I do.

 No, for me DIY is not a bargain. The bargains are those things that allow me to enjoy my down-time and relax to get ready to enter the world the next day. This is how I determine what is a bargain. Now it would be nice if I was one of those people who could combine those two things but I am not, I don't have that much time. Now that would be a bargain indeed. Maybe after retirement like some people in that commercial about graduation. When asked what was he going to do with his degree, replying he thought that retirement looked good to him.


----------



## gritzcolin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *hciman77* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So what do these tests test ?_

 

 They test the tolerances. For example the HDMI spec calls for 100 ohm pairs, +/- 10 ohms.


----------



## dvw

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *hciman77* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So what do these tests test ?_

 

L, C, and R .
 Noise immunity
 Impedance (differential and common mode)
 emission property
 frequency bandwidth/attenuation (in relationship to distance)

 Essentially this will enable you to have a quality control standard as well as a mathematical model for circuit simulation.


----------



## dvw

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *slwiser* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You know something, I have to disagree with this statement even thought it looks so reasonable on the surface. If I attempt to make something and charge myself my rate that I get at my work then everything I have purchase at discounted retail prices is a bargain. Even those so-called over priced cables ever one is talking about. Yea, it is nice if you are not doing anything else, just sitting around doing nothing, having someone else support you like parents or some government program but to think that just building something would result in a bargain is wrong. What is my time worth? A whole lot more than what it would cost me to build a cable equal to one of the items like a Virtual Dynamics David "R" cable for about 300$. How long does it take to go out and get the materials? How much time do I take considering the design features to put into it? Physically how much time does it take to weave a cable into those intricate patterns around a cotton center and then wrap each them them with the appropriate wrapping before finishing it? How about the time it takes to set up a jig so that I could even begin to weave a proper cable? It is all about how much you value your time. This is what determines whether something is a bargain in my book. It would appear that some do not value their time as I do.

 No, for me DIY is not a bargain. The bargains are those things that allow me to enjoy my down-time and relax to get ready to enter the world the next day. This is how I determine what is a bargain. Now it would be nice if I was one of those people who could combine those two things but I am not, I don't have that much time. Now that would be a bargain indeed. Maybe after retirement like some people in that commercial about graduation. When asked what was he going to do with his degree, replying he thought that retirement looked good to him._

 

You are too expensive. That's why we want to out source your job to China.


----------



## slwiser

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dvw* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You are too expensive. That's why we want to out source your job to China.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Good response....then I would have all the time I needed since you would be helping the government support me in my DIY efforts...Great ideal. I would not have to worry about facing tomorrow ready to do real work getting up a 4 am after having to go to bed something around 8 in the evening.


----------



## immtbiker

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *colonelkernel8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Why does this forum feel its necessary to censor the audio "skeptics" true ace in the pocket? DBT, which is essentially the only true means of testing audio equipment ._

 

Because it does. DBT discussions have shown a history of tearing down a thread and causing huge fights.
 It's a rule that we need to follow or else post elsewhere.

 Why is the speed limit on the Long Island Expressway 50 mph when I can safely travel at 60 mph? Because it is, and I'll get a ticket if choose to ignore it.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *colonelkernel8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This thread makes me happy._

 

Why would a thread about someone getting their cable annihilated by their cat, make you happy 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ?


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pars* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Do a Google on "SPDIF sucks" or look at this to see why your digital cable might make a difference._

 

I'm sure that SPDIFsucks.com is a branch of a peer reviewed audio journal and as such is above reproach!

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## hempcamp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *immtbiker* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Because it does. DBT discussions have shown a history of tearing down a thread and causing huge fights.
 It's a rule that we need to follow or else post elsewhere._

 

So do discussions about AKG K701s having no bass, but we don't ban AKG discussions (thank goodness).

 It's a bit disingenuous to ban a legitimate (in every other discipline or hobby in the world) testing method just because some people can't handle adult discussions about it.

 --Chris


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *immtbiker* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Why would a thread about someone getting their cable annihilated by their cat, make you happy 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ?_

 

Maybe becasue he believes it was the best thing that could happen to it... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (that was a JOKE, OK?)


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *immtbiker* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Febs, the sticky clearly states that any mention of DBT testing is not allowed and in OverlordXenu's post it refers to DBT testing of SACD vs. Redbook no matter what the conclusion is, it was mentioned and linked._

 

Why can someone mention their own informal test results, but they can't cite more carefully done tests? I understand why discussion of methodology is a trouble spot. Some people can't resist grinding discussions of methodology into the ground. But citing the results of "controlled listening tests" is just as valid as citing the results of lab measurements, magazine reviews, or the results of informal A/B comparisons in the home.

 It should be fine to refer to a controlled test as a "controlled test" and not debate the fine points of methodology.

 That said, I have done extensive comparisons between SACD and redbook myself, and I found that the differences between the two formats were always a result of mastering differences, not the audio reproduction quality of the format itself. Using a Pentatone DSD SACD/CD hybrid, I was able to do direct balanced level A/B comparisons that showed that the two layers sounded identical. This informal test supports the "controlled test" cited above. So the point that there is no audible difference between SACD and redbook stands.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## Febs

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *immtbiker* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Because it does. DBT discussions have shown a history of tearing down a thread and causing huge fights.
 It's a rule that we need to follow or else post elsewhere._

 

Huge fights are the result of people who don't respect each other and who are incapable of engaging in an intelligent discussion without resorting to invective and personal attacks. Head-Fi's terms of use already address this sort of behavior:

  Quote:


 "Be polite. We encourage debating -- even heated debating -- in the forums, but avoid defamatory statements, personal attacks, racial slurs, name-calling, and cursing at others in the forums." 
 

*That* is the rule that should be enforced.


----------



## colonelkernel8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *immtbiker* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Because it does. DBT discussions have shown a history of tearing down a thread and causing huge fights.
 It's a rule that we need to follow or else post elsewhere._

 

Im sure, because cable believers tend to violently defend their cases with absolutely no factual evidence. So they just tell us, "If you listen to it, you'd know what I was saying". How can I reply to that? DBT would be ideal, but I can't use that. It kind of unbalances the playing field. Then when we want to argue the science of it, they just say, "Well thats what I'm hearing, the best piece of measuring equipment is your ear." (Acoustic Chef said something to this effect in a PM to me). They just ignore the obvious fact that they are completely wrong in this respect, as measuring equipment is thousands of times more sensitive than the human ear. Then they cite some obscure properties of conductors like skin effect and the like, disregarding the fact that it doesn't have anything to do with the audible frequency range. Though it may make slight differences to the whole picture, these differences are inaudible, regardless of how good you think your hearing is. The list goes on and on. I always wonder why everyone perceives the same differences whenever they buy some uber-cable. Just about everyone claims "tighter bass" and "blacker background" and improved "detail" because thats what they expect from hearing what everyone else has said about a cable. Then good old Mr. Placebo kicks in. Of course I could rant all day, but it is inevitably futile, because common sense takes a back seat to subjectivity when it comes to cables.

 All this bickering can be solved with DBT. Because they are irrefutable when correctly practiced.


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Febs* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Huge fights are the result of people who don't respect each other and who are incapable of engaging in an intelligent discussion without resorting to invective and personal attacks._

 

I've found that those sorts of people are just as likely to misbehave with other subjects as they are discussions of testing methodology.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## Pars

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm sure that SPDIFsucks.com is a branch of a peer reviewed audio journal and as such is above reproach!

 See ya
 Steve_

 

I'm sure you clock your studio equipment from S/PDIF, don't you Steve 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 No bitclocks or the like?

 Regarding your irreproachable AES testing, some searching over on audioasylum will yield somewhat differing views of the AES and its validity as a scientific organization, from long-time members of the AES such as John Curl, Charles Hansen and the like. This one was rather enlightening, but there are pages and pages of hits.


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Why can someone mention their own informal test results, but they can't cite more carefully done tests? I understand why discussion of the methodology of DBT is a trouble spot. Some people can't resist grinding discussions of methodology into the ground. But citing the results of blind listening tests is just as valid as citing the results of lab measurements or citing the results of sighted A/B comparisons in the home.

 It should be fine to refer to a controlled test as a "controlled test" and not debate the fine points of methodology.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

IMO a DBT is a more real approach that to come here and tell us that you remember how a power cord sounded a month ago, without trying it again in a month, or tell us that this cable is more transparent than this other based in an audition a year ago....Hearing memory can not be paralell, you can not hear two things at the same time, as logic indicates, and as with other human senses, that can not be used that way, our brain is real bad with this kind of "serial memories".
 See a guy now, and with no reference see another guy, and later on tell me which is taller? Taste one sweet now, and the next day try another, and tell me which is sweeter...Now see both guys togeter, try both sweets one after he other, and see how easier it will be, same happen in audio...span memory for audio is short, and on top you can't compare simultaneusly, the best you can do is a click of a switch...as most of the DBT do...

 We have discussions here every day, for any reason, DBT was IMO a bad choice to remove...


----------



## bigshot

That was a joke, Pars.

 I've never been to audio asylum, so I don't know what sort of site it is. Are there a lot of pros there?

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## yotacowboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That was a joke, Pars.

 I've never been to audio asylum, so I don't know what sort of site it is. Are there a lot of pros there?

 See ya
 Steve_

 

You wouldn't like it. It's a bunch of shills.

 but in case you don't believe me:

Audio Asylum


 lol.


----------



## Pars

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yotacowboy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You wouldn't like it. It's a bunch of shills.

 but in case you don't believe me:

Audio Asylum


 lol._

 

Just like any forum, you have to weed thru alot of BS (Mr. Kait, of Machina Dynamica ermmm, fame? as in your link, among others). But, people like John Curl, Charles Hansen, etc. do post there as well. YMMV.


----------



## slwiser

Your not a Beltist? Look up May Belt and read some of that over on the Asylum. All you have to do is tie a square knot in any cable and you sound improves. Put a Blue card under one corner of your speaker or something like that and your sound improves. Freeze one of your pictures and place in in your room improves your sound. 

 This is the type of stuff you find in the Propeller-Headforum in the Asylum for example. Makes for some great reading.


----------



## Dan Millheim

The sand blasting material that was spoken of by Rick, or Matt...I can't remember. Could it be Carborundum? Is this the mystery stuff they use in the garden hose around the wire?

 Interesting stuff. Acoustic Revive uses green Carborundum as an absorbing material of an electro-magnetic wave. They claim: 

 "it can reduce noise generated from a receptacle, an inlet and internal wiring that have been a blind spot in the power strip."

http://www.thecableco.com/product.php?id=4040

 I think the above is missing something in the translation? Anyway, Carborundum is also used in sand blasting. Tesla experimented with (SiC) Carborundum. 

Silicon carbide - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## hempcamp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Dan Millheim* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_"it can reduce noise generated from a receptacle, an inlet and internal wiring that have been a blind spot in the power strip."_

 

I'm wondering what a "blind spot in the power strip" *is* exactly, and what does it sound like? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 --Chris


----------



## slwiser

Anyone seen this link:

http://www.essex.ac.uk/ese/research/audio_lab/malcolmspubdocs/G3%20HFN%20Essex_Echo_(cables_1985).pdf

 Here is some additional cable information

Harshness/Brightness from "Good" Speakers - Why?

 Why some cables do better with some equipment and not others may be related to something called an electron pool that is available. If you ground plane is small cables that can provide additional pooling may be able to provide something extra....


----------



## IPodPJ

Steve,
 You still haven't wrapped your digital cable in foil yet? I'm telling you, try it.


----------



## furball

So, this thread is still in the Cables forum. For a minute there I thought it was a gonner...


----------



## KarateKid

I always soak my cables in the toliet bowl, it makes the sound that much smoother!


----------



## d.phens

!ROFL -  ROFL  - ROFL!
 How did it sound? I mean the cat...


----------



## Akathisia

Sold.


----------



## Happy Camper

These threads take on a life of their own. I am pleased that you did take up Rick's offer to try another cable. As you say, VD would have been within rights not to deal with us after the beating they took in this thread. 

 I have been pleased and impressed with the cable I got and will buy another one for my source as money allows. I was a very skeptical person with respect to power cords. They have forever changed my mentality about power cords. Their pricing is stratospheric and I would hope they would consider that and look to put a cord or two within the novice range of cost. The power 3 is in that range and I will spring for another power 1 before they stop their pricing special. 

 Thank you VD (Rick and Matt) for having a thick skin and sticking with us.


----------



## pompon

I don't think you have done much damage to VD with your thread. Peaple who replied was mostly cables haters ... 

 I heard Power3, Nite Platinum, Master 3.0, Verastarr and 2 differents gauge standard powercord.

 They all sound different ...

 You gain speed, dynamic and details. You can gain more soundstage (width), coloration (warm, neutral or cold) ... 

 You can change your gear, change your interconnect, powercable, powerconditionner, opamp, tubes ...

 Just begin with the less expansive and keep going till you happy.


----------



## swt61

My overall impressions of the Power3 are quite good. I have several power cords to compare it to, and it's one of my favorites.


----------



## fishski13

the Power 3 is a super quiet PC with a warm, groovy, punchy sound with excellent dynamics to boot. maybe a bit too laid back for some, but i'm really enjoying it with my Cayin HA-1A. i have some DIY PC supplies from vhaudio.com coming tomorrow - we'll see.....

 btw, as far as the quality of VD's construction goes, it's the equal of any in the cable manufacturing business i've encountered. i have a tom cat that i think could take on a tornado (it kills nasty squirrels on a regular basis), but has no inerest in the hi-fi room other than a nap. i'd hate to see what it could do to my Power 3. Tech-Flex is pretty to look at, but.....

 PACE


----------



## Hopstretch

I have to say, as a noob here, that reading this thread from front to back was a bit like watching "Saving Private Ryan." Started with a real bang, and the make-up at the end wasn't at all convincing.


----------



## LawnGnome

It is sad to think that people as naive to buy these cables, actually have the money to buy them.


----------



## Dzjudz

I haven't read the whole thread, only the first and last page. I have one question:

 how did it go from "oh my god how can they charge $$$ for $15 worth of components" to "well, actually, it kinda is worth all the $$$ IMO and it does sound better than other $$$ cables"????

 Edit: so I'm reading through the thread now. I just want to say: wow, it looks like bigshot is one of the few with a clue and some common sense and decency. Virtual Dynamics themselves concede that their cables are nothing more than what was posted in the OP and go on defending their prices on the basis that 'they can' (Example in post #69 by Acoustic Chef: "The Basic and Power 3 tell the story of how you can take the simplest wire and by simply applying even sandblasting metal to the surrounding wire you can turn the once $50 cable into a $5000+ cable."). Then he goes on saying that "we don’t make a cent off them anyway". How can you not make money off a cable you made for $15 and sold for $5000? This behaviour shocks me. Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have purchased every VD cable I've owned. I wait for their sales to buy cheap or I buy them used on audiogon._

 

Define 'cheap'.


----------



## pompon

You can pay a lawyer to poursuit them if you want.


----------



## bigshot

The answer to that is the core of the whole debate over cables, Dzjudz. It seems that even the obvious isn't obvious enough sometimes.

 I appreciate your note of support. Thanks.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## bugmenot2

Quote:


 It's hard to tell from these photos, but believe me, these are some serious cables with some seriously fine build quality. *They ain't cheap, but they look and feel like their price tag.* 
 

From here: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f21/vi...review-308491/

 LOL

 Just to show you how some people overrate some cables (monster cables anyone?)


----------



## cyanbomb

I was considering parting with my hard-earned cash to buy a VD Testament-series interconnect... now I'm going to do a -lot- more research before buying _any_ interconnect, and I doubt I'll be buying VD. I feel a tinge of regret though... the cables look beautifully constructed on the outside, and I like pretty things!

 Can anyone recommend an interconnect that sounds great, and is genuinely well-constructed?


----------



## manaox2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LawnGnome* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It is sad to think that people as naive to buy these cables, actually have the money to buy them._

 

Did you get just bored after no one replied to this dead horse for two weeks? Why did we relight this steaming pile exactly?


----------



## Dzjudz

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *manaox2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Did you get just bored after no one replied to this dead horse for two weeks? Why did we relight this steaming pile exactly?_

 

If I may reply for him: well, for the benefit of people such as cyanbomb (the poster above you), who was alerted to this thread because it was revived and that probably saved him/her a lot of grief.


----------



## markl

Quote:


 Just to show you how some people overrate some cables (monster cables anyone?) 
 

 Hey, troll of 2 posts, I am not discussing the Power 3 (bottom of the line), but the Genesis, the top of the line. You haven't seen it or held it, or installed it or listened to it (or other cables of similar price tag), so you have no clue as to what you are talking about.

 BTW, everyone who knows anything about cables (excludes you) knows Monster cables are the Bose of cables. All marketing, no performance. Abominable build quality, just open one up and take a lokk at the soldering job the 12 year old slave did.


----------



## manaox2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Dzjudz* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If I may reply for him: well, for the benefit of people such as cyanbomb (the poster above you), who was alerted to this thread because it was revived and that probably saved him/her a lot of grief._

 

And if cyanbomb had gotten his cables and actually was happy with them, then he would have just been called naive and told that he didn't deserve to have enough money to purchase them.

 It doesn't help anyone to call someone naive and worth less then a cable IMO. Let a search function handle those who actually research cables, but for those who you might think are naive, the battle against naivety in this world could be better served elsewhere. Start a webpage about these things and put it in your signature for all I care, but we can stop the worthless crap throwing when no one was bothering to defend any longer. That was pure trolling in the worst way, sounded like he was desperately seeking an ego boost today.


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_BTW, everyone who knows anything about cables (excludes you) knows Monster cables are the Bose of cables_

 

You're quite correct in that observation. The primary similarity is that they're both overpriced. There are alternatives that are just as good at a fraction of the cost. Of course, Bose and Monster are just garden variety absurd. The degree of absurdity in cables goes up to the stratosphere along with the price tag.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *manaox2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That was pure trolling in the worst way, sounded like he was desperately seeking an ego boost today._

 

Gizmodo is linking to this thread today. It's likely that it would have been ressurected anyway.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## manaox2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Gizmodo is linking to this thread today. It's likely that it would have been ressurected anyway.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

Thanks Steve, I did not know that. I hope that this cable's build does become common knowledge to buyers at least.


----------



## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_After reading this thread, I can't wait to try their cables! I will resume my audio hobby..._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You're quite correct in that observation. The primary similarity is that they're both overpriced. There are alternatives that are just as good at a fraction of the cost. Of course, Bose and Monster are just garden variety absurd. The degree of absurdity in cables goes up to the stratosphere along with the price tag.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

Genesis power cable gave me more for the price than any other cable I have ever tried. Other cables just add different flavors to the sound, they don't improve the sound like the Genesis does. Even when the Genesis power cable costs more than a car, it's a bargain!


----------



## subtle

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Even when the Genesis power cable costs more than a car, it's a bargain!_

 

LMAO! That may just be signature worthy material some day.


----------



## The Monkey

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Genesis power cable gave me more for the price than any other cable I have ever tried. Other cables just add different flavors to the sound, they don't improve the sound like the Genesis does. Even when the Genesis power cable costs more than a car, it's a bargain!_

 

Obviously cables are very important, but without proper isolation, anti-resonance and damping, you will never get the resolution you need having spent all that money. Have you considered trying some isolation/damping techniques? Also EMF can be an issue.


----------



## cyanbomb

I'm a relative noob compared to all you Headphone Supremes, and I've read this VD thread with a mixture of disbelief (at VD), amazement (at their reply), and disappointment at the way it's turned out.

 Most people work hard for their money, and no matter which way you look at it, will be very disappointed in finding that their _relatively_ expensive power cable was PVC bulk wire and a garden hose. Do you see? The sound is no longer the issue (although it should ideally be), and profit margins are no longer the issue either, even if there's truth in the sums. People want to *feel* like what they paid for was *truly worth it*, and for almost everyone, the sheer shock of VD's cable construction would be off-putting.

 It truly is a case of "Ignorance is bliss." That illusion has been shattered, and the damage is done. Therefore...

 The best thing VD could have done is to have said, "Look, this isn't uncommon for cable manufacturers, but all the same, we're sorry, and will look into ways of improving the cosmetic appearance/quality/whatever of our cables." _That_ would have been proper damage control. Unfortunately, what VD did was to offer inane comments, some shockingly unprofessional. Yes, some of what they said held a degree of truth, but didn't actually address the matter at hand: Irate and disappointed Head-fiers. And -that- is what fueled much of the flaming and bad feelings in the thread.

 Many people will now give VD cables a miss not merely because of their build quality or material choices, but because of the way the company's representative responded.

 We can't force anyone to stop viewing or posting in this thread, and nobody can stop people from posting by arguing logic, like most arguments in life (girlfriend/wife arguments, for example, don't obey any rules of rationale! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





)
 Let it run its course, and let us hope that there are hotter topics to discuss soon! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Hey everyone, case closed okay?


----------



## bigshot

There's still one last counterclaim open on this case... The fact that this is a power cable that doesn't carry UL certification. Anyone who plugs their valuable equipment into a wall socket of their house deserves that level of guarantee from the manufacturer. I don't care how good it sounds, I don't want my house to burn down and my insurance refuse to cover the loss.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## MoxMonkey

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Gizmodo is linking to this thread today. It's likely that it would have been ressurected anyway.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

Ripoffs: $300 "Audiophile Grade" Power Cable is Really Worth $15


----------



## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *The Monkey* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Obviously cables are very important, but without proper isolation, anti-resonance and damping, you will never get the resolution you need having spent all that money. Have you considered trying some isolation/damping techniques? Also EMF can be an issue._

 

I'm using Magix levitation feet and ERS Paper so those problems are fixed. The Genesis Power Cable gave as much for the money as those tweaks. I can't think of anything else that improves the sound other than Magix, ERS Paper and Virtual Dynamics cables. They all increase the resolution in the music.

 All the amps and sources I have tried have been a waste of money because they worsened the signal, that's why there are so many different flavors between different components. The Virtual Dynamics cable is the only "component" in the signal path that improves the sound instead of worsens it. The reason for that is vibration control inside the cable. The conductors are always vibrating and when using different materials to build the cable you can get many different flavors, but what really gives a neutral sound is by finding a way to reduce those vibrations instead of only altering them. This is what Virtual Dynamics does, they try to fix the problem of the AC signal while everyone else tries to sell different flavors. 

 I rather choose a neutral cable than a colored cable. A neutral cable is the same as what comes from the wall, but it's just neutral, it doesn't fix anything. A colored cable like the Nordost Valhalla power cord veils the sound to make it smoother and more musical, but it removes low-level detail while adding boominess to make it appear like there is more body.
 The Virtual Dynamics cables use neutral conductors while adding vibration dampening around the conductors. It reduces the vibrations of the cable which gives better sound. Their cheapest cable has their simplest form of vibration dampening, and their best cable (Genesis) has their most advanced form of vibration dampening. 

 After I put the Genesis into my system I have found that vibration control is 99% of the sound. The vibrations are everywhere which means that you can add different flavors to the sound.

 I like stock cables more than Nordost Valhalla ($3000) because the Valhalla veiled the sound. The Virtual Dynamics is the only aftermarket power cable that improved the sound in every way possible. I haven't heard any weaknesses with it at all. Virtual Dynamics is the best audio manufacturer I know of, and that includes amps, sources or any other audio gear. The Genesis power cable gave a lot more for the money than any other component change I have ever done. There is no comparison.


----------



## spacemanspliff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm using Magix levitation feet and ERS Paper so those problems are fixed. The Genesis Power Cable gave as much for the money as those tweaks. I can't think of anything else that improves the sound other than Magix, ERS Paper and Virtual Dynamics cables. They all increase the resolution in the music.

 All the amps and sources I have tried have been a waste of money because they worsened the signal, that's why there are so many different flavors between different components. The Virtual Dynamics cable is the only "component" in the signal path that improves the sound instead of worsens it. The reason for that is vibration control inside the cable. The conductors are always vibrating and when using different materials to build the cable you can get many different flavors, but what really gives a neutral sound is by finding a way to reduce those vibrations instead of only altering them. This is what Virtual Dynamics does, they try to fix the problem of the AC signal while everyone else tries to sell different flavors. 

 I rather choose a neutral cable than a colored cable. A neutral cable is the same as what comes from the wall, but it's just neutral, it doesn't fix anything. A colored cable like the Nordost Valhalla power cord veils the sound to make it smoother and more musical, but it removes low-level detail while adding boominess to make it appear like there is more body.
 The Virtual Dynamics cables use neutral conductors while adding vibration dampening around the conductors. It reduces the vibrations of the cable which gives better sound. Their cheapest cable has their simplest form of vibration dampening, and their best cable (Genesis) has their most advanced form of vibration dampening. 

 After I put the Genesis into my system I have found that vibration control is 99% of the sound. The vibrations are everywhere which means that you can add different flavors to the sound.

 I like stock cables more than Nordost Valhalla ($3000) because the Valhalla veiled the sound. The Virtual Dynamics is the only aftermarket power cable that improved the sound in every way possible. I haven't heard any weaknesses with it at all. Virtual Dynamics is the best audio manufacturer I know of, and that includes amps, sources or any other audio gear. The Genesis power cable gave a lot more for the money than any other component change I have ever done. There is no comparison._

 

Kiss of Death.

 lol


----------



## junkiefred

I don't care how good or bad their products are. After reading the responses of VD representatives, I would never purchase a VD product. 

 The cable believers/disbelievers argument is completely irrelevant to the discussion, when a VP rep is insulting it's customers. 

 I've seen this type of thing happen time and again with company reps on forums. And in every case it has caused serious, if not irreparable damage to the company. Now that this article is circulating through the web, I fear VP pretty much slit their own throats.

 As far as the Power 3 goes, even if the "Special Sauce" turned my equipment into Audio Nirvana, I doubt I would want a product that insulates mains wire with abrasive sand blasting particles, just sounds like a safety hazard waiting to happen.


----------



## spacemanspliff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *junkiefred* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't care how good or bad their products are. After reading the responses of VD representatives, I would never purchase a VD product. 

 The cable believers/disbelievers argument is completely irrelevant to the discussion, when a VP rep is insulting it's customers. 

 I've seen this type of thing happen time and again with company reps on forums. And in every case it has caused serious, if not irreparable damage to the company. Now that this article is circulating through the web, I fear VP pretty much slit their own throats.

 As far as the Power 3 goes, even if the "Special Sauce" turned my equipment into Audio Nirvana, I doubt I would want a product that insulates mains wire with abrasive sand blasting particles, just sounds like a safety hazard waiting to happen._

 

lol nice first post and pretty much yeah. right on.


----------



## jmmtn4aj

I can't be arsed to read the whole thread (gave up around 11 or 12) so I'm sorry if it's be said before..

 But, to those defending the mark up, I don't think it's the same. You can mark up bottles of water because they weigh a lot, and consequently the cost of storage and transportation because of size and weight is going to cost a lot relative to the price of the actual content. If you want to argue that R&D marketing and overhead and what have you makes it a reasonable markup, are you mad? R&D tends to be the most expensive part of an electronic or technology company, but R&D is there here when all the parts are cheap and readymade? Going to the local DIY shop and trying the wires? Researching the right sort of plastic plug to use? Why not compare it against, say, a 300 dollar (well it used to be 300 anyway) Gilmore Lite from headamp? How much do you think it costs to machine each of those cases of that quality, machine because those cases aren't available at the local DIY shop? Don't you think it's also a little more complex and thus time consuming to put together the components, components that by the way cost much more than 15 dollars. Hell I don't think that would even pay for half the resistors in there, never mind the power regulators, circuit board and what have yous. 

 Or why not try the average 3000 laptop? I can bet that it didn't cost 150 dollars to put together. A 3000 laptop would have to have a pretty mighty processors, processors that would probably cost around 150 dollars even purchased in the numbers that big name OEMs buy it for. The screen? Case? Optical and magnetic drives? Keyboard? Motherboard? RAM? 

 Seriously..


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *junkiefred* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't care how good or bad their products are. After reading the responses of VD representatives, I would never purchase a VD product._

 

Their rep recently offered me some VD cables to "try out" in PM. I let him know that I was happy with my current cables. I'll leave it to you to figure out what that offer meant.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## eldwar

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You know I don't like to look at myself as a sales person, or some kind of marketer. I am here to share my experiences and opinions with others. 
 As most of you might know I lived on this forum for about 5 years before becoming Acoustic Chef. I hang out here still because I adore this community.

 I became a member of the VD team because I had too. After receiving one of their power cables to play with I fell in love and fought for ~6months to come hang out with the awesome crew here at VD, and I must say I am loving every second of it, while truly living the dream. Rick is the coolest guy you will ever meet and his cables are out of this world!
 As I type this Rick is skipping around the room modeling his new artic cat gear showing off the advances in ass protection. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Now, Ragging on the cables is like ragging on my wife or kids because you think their ugly. And I REALLY don’t appreciate people hacking them to pieces and having their mutilated parts displayed in such a manner.


 I’m honest, and a true member of the community. Appreciate it. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Sorry for this out of date quote, but all hail to Acoustic Chef and his honesty. He can't be at all biased with that attitude ?!?!

 Anyways, nice having some entertainment to read at work


----------



## scompton

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jmmtn4aj* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_But, to those defending the mark up, I don't think it's the same. You can mark up bottles of water because they weigh a lot, and consequently the cost of storage and transportation because of size and weight is going to cost a lot relative to the price of the actual content._

 

I feed the same about bottled water as I do about cables. Except in a few places that the water is not really safe to drink or has some safe, but awful tasting impurities. Bottled water is not better, and sometimes worse than tap water. Especially if you can let tap water sit for a day or two and let the chlorine gas out.

 I recently read that Claridges Hotel in London has a bottled water bar that sells various waters for up to $2000 a glass
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I could give other examples, but they'd be against forum rules


----------



## UseName

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hey, troll of 2 posts, I am not discussing the Power 3 (bottom of the line), but the Genesis, the top of the line. You haven't seen it or held it, or installed it or listened to it (or other cables of similar price tag), so you have no clue as to what you are talking about._

 

Once again I am shocked by your lack of respect for others on this board. 

  Quote:


 BTW, everyone who knows anything about cables (excludes you) knows Monster cables are the Bose of cables. All marketing, no performance. *Abominable build quality*, just open one up and take a lokk at the soldering job the 12 year old slave did. 
 

I pretty sure it is comparable to the abominable quality of cord that was posted in the OP of this thread... for a cheaper price. Maybe you should open up that 'top of the line' Genesis and see if you can find simular quality control all the way up the line of VDs. 

 Now is the part where you talk down to me with little fact to back yourself up...


----------



## Budgie

Did I get this right? - 

 Point 1-You can't comment on all of the VD cables if you have not used them all, yourself.

 Point 2- All Monsters products suck.

 Therefore Markl has listened to all Monster cables. Quite an accomplishment! 

 (I don't really care, having formed my own opinion on high end Bling Bling cables along time ago. Monsters are built well, though, and the wire isn't sourced from the local hardware store either! Puts Monster a step up on Virtual Dynamics in my book!) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Regarding UL - The individual conductors in the deceased VD power cord are probably UL listed wire, judging from the picture. (It would be printed in tiny letters on the insulation), however, if the cable is sold as an assembled product (and it is),the product must be submitted to UL as assembled, for product testing, as it will be marketed to the public, to receive UL listing. UL will then test it for flammability issues related to over voltage and over current conditions (caused by surges, brownouts, failed equipment, miss-use, etc.) Also electrical shock and safety issues are examined, such as durability under typical use, etc. The manufacturer pays for this testing, and it isn't cheap.

 I don't believe cat mastication of cable is part of the testing, however. 
 Maybe UL should address this issue.


----------



## Akathisia

500+ posts. Jesus. 

_Viva-la-thread!_


----------



## immtbiker

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Their rep recently offered me some VD cables to "try out" in PM. I let him know that I was happy with my current cables. I'll leave it to you to figure out what that offer meant.

 See ya
 Steve_

 


 This type of activity (being solicited by PM from a vendor or manufacturer) is against the TOU and is a bannable offense. It fits right in with signing in under another username after being banned, as Acoustic Chef did.

 If solicitations were OK, every MOT would be filling your inbox with PM's faster than a bunch of pigeons jumping on a crust of bread dropped by a person eating a sandwich in the park.

 It just keeps getting better


----------



## bigshot

I had no idea this was against the terms of use. This forum is full of people who have gotten "free" VD cables to "try out". Well, in any case... Since you apparently aren't aware of it, Acoustic Chef is back and he's still shilling under at least two new usernames. I'll let you know what they are if you're interested.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## Grizzlepaw

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I had no idea this was against the terms of use. This forum is full of people who have gotten "free" VD cables to "try out". Well, in any case... Since you apparently aren't aware of it, Acoustic Chef is back and he's still shilling under at least two new usernames. I'll let you know what they are if you're interested.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

I just thought I would draw moderator attention to this post.

 Definitely neither accurate nor cool...

 -Brad


----------



## bigshot

OK. In the interest of accuracy, here's the PM...

 ---------
 Grizzlepaw
 Sponsor
 Virtual Dynamics
 Profile
 Join Date: Dec 2007
 Posts: 38

 Subject: Wana try?
 Date: 03-21-2008, 12:09 AM

 Hello Bigshot,

 I was wondering if you would like to try one of our cables?

 If so could you let me know your system (all components)
 --------


----------



## pompon

It's a good offer if you don't have to pay any shipping cost!


----------



## bigshot

My motto is "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

 I wonder how many people here on this forum have been made an offer like this and have accepted.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## xnothingpoetic

but.. "If it's free, it's for me"


----------



## spacemanspliff

all I can say is that Patrick swears by them.

 enough said?


----------



## jgonino

I don't see any problem trying out a cable for free. In fact, I would like to try a VD power cable with my amp to see if it would make a difference.


----------



## UseName

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *immtbiker* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This type of activity (being solicited by PM from a vendor or manufacturer) is against the TOU and is a bannable offense. It fits right in with signing in under another username after being banned, as Acoustic Chef did.

 If solicitations were OK, every MOT would be filling your inbox with PM's faster than a bunch of pigeons jumping on a crust of bread dropped by a person eating a sandwich in the park.

 It just keeps getting better 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I had no idea this was against the terms of use. This forum is full of people who have gotten "free" VD cables to "try out". Well, in any case... Since you apparently aren't aware of it, Acoustic Chef is back and he's still shilling under at least two new usernames. I'll let you know what they are if you're interested.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Grizzlepaw* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just thought I would draw moderator attention to this post.

 Definitely neither accurate nor cool...

 -Brad_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_OK. In the interest of accuracy, here's the PM...

 ---------
 Grizzlepaw
 Sponsor
 Virtual Dynamics
 Profile
 Join Date: Dec 2007
 Posts: 38

 Subject: Wana try?
 Date: 03-21-2008, 12:09 AM

 Hello Bigshot,

 I was wondering if you would like to try one of our cables?

 If so could you let me know your system (all components)
 --------_

 


 Smooth move... VD guys should start a comedy crew. You guys have given me a lot of laughs in the past week.


----------



## rocdoc

Ani would like to meet Virgil. She has the same passion for destroying stuff, and they could bond over it.
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/174/4...ba1df62568.jpg


----------



## Grizzlepaw

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My motto is "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

 I wonder how many people here on this forum have been made an offer like this and have accepted.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

Common bigshot, I'll send you one Power 3 with dynamic filtering and one with-out then let you hear the difference yourself. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 -Brad


----------



## bigshot

My chihuahua prefers to chew on Rat Shacks.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## Vul Kuolun

The problem is, even if it's free snake oil, it's still snake oil.

 What we really would like to know is who is working for your extraordinary successful research and development department.


----------



## pompon

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Grizzlepaw* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Common bigshot, I'll send you one Power 3 with dynamic filtering and one with-out then let you hear the difference yourself. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 -Brad_

 

Can you permit to others to hear that ? I will be very interested to hear what it do with and without.


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Vul Kuolun* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The problem is, even if it's free snake oil, it's still snake oil._

 

The bigger problem is, how can we trust the reviews of other posters if they're receiving "free gifts" as a "courtesy" to "help" them write [positive] reviews of the product. This is basically an attempt to plant shills in the board, and it seems to be working. Many of the positive reviews of VD products in this group appear to be from people who never paid for the wires they're reviewing.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## scompton

I don't mind that so long as they have to return them. And when what's happening is above board. Skylab sent his iBasso T2 to a number of people, with the provision that they had to post their impressions in the thread that was started for that purpose. I was one of the people who got the amp and I was happy to participate. And I gave it a mediocre review
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It finally convinced me that I don't want a portable amp.


----------



## pompon

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Grizzlepaw* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Common bigshot, I'll send you one Power 3 with dynamic filtering and one with-out then let you hear the difference yourself. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 -Brad_

 

Focus on more open mind.


----------



## Pangaea

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *scompton* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't mind that so long as they have to return them. And when what's happening is above board. Skylab sent his iBasso T2 to a number of people, with the provision that they had to post their impressions in the thread that was started for that purpose. I was one of the people who got the amp and I was happy to participate. And I gave it a mediocre review
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It finally convinced me that I don't want a portable amp._

 

I agree- that is totally fine and beneficial to this community, but it is also completely different than this situation.


----------



## goldenratiophi

I'd gladly take a free Power 3 for my own feline-assisted build quality assessment to compare to Akathisia's


----------



## Happy Camper

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The bigger problem is, how can we trust the reviews of other posters if they're receiving "free gifts" as a "courtesy" to "help" them write [positive] reviews of the product. This is basically an attempt to plant shills in the board, and it seems to be working. Many of the positive reviews of VD products in this group appear to be from people who never paid for the wires they're reviewing.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

I have to ask. If you are given the opportunity to try a cable at no cost, and you turn it down, you really don't want to know do you? 

 To challenge those of us that received a free cable as becoming shills is offensive and asinine as well as arrogant. I would not have paid the list price for the cable I received, not having listened to it. Since I have been able to listen to it in my system, I am now willing to try others in my financial comfort zone. I found that the cable did have a positive impact on my amp. It has been confirmed by listening to it for several months and then going back to the original cable. 

 I have been asking dealers of A/V for information justifying cable claims. There are none. The best answer given is that every component has a specific need that is matched with that cable. They have several lines of components and listen to cables to confirm benefits. They know what lines of component manufacturers match with which cables. Of course the cost vs. benefits are up to the buyer. But to say that cables make no difference and then not take up the offer to try one is just being blissfully ignorant and passionately obstinate.


----------



## Akathisia

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Since you apparently aren't aware of it, Acoustic Chef is back and he's still shilling under at least two new usernames. I'll let you know what they are if you're interested._

 

Do tell.


----------



## Akathisia

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rocdoc* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ani would like to meet Virgil. She has the same passion for destroying stuff, and they could bond over it.
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/174/4...ba1df62568.jpg_

 

What a cutie!


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Happy Camper* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have to ask. If you are given the opportunity to try a cable at no cost, and you turn it down, you really don't want to know do you?_

 

Here is how I approach my audio rig...

 I test my components and compare them to find out exactly what each one is adding noise-wise or imbalance-wise to the combination of elements. I determine which areas are the problem, and I attack those problems until I am satisfied that I've done all I can. I don't randomly try things. I figure things out and test.

 When it comes to cables, I've been there and done that. I have MUCH bigger fish to fry. I know exactly what it takes to make a big difference in my sound. Why should I waste my time with a company operated by dolts? I don't want them to do me any favors. They can keep their overblown wires.

 There's a lot to learn about achieving great sound. I'm not going to learn what it takes from a salesman. I REALLY have nothing to learn from Grizzleypaws.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## Budgie

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Akathisia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What a cutie!_

 

And that picture is wonderful! Cracked me up...Thanks rocdoc!


----------



## dfkt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I know exactly what it takes to make a big difference in my sound. Why should I waste my time with a company operated by dolts?_

 

You're my favorite HF'er... thank you for keeping it sane. (See my sig, it's not sarcasm.)


----------



## Budgie

I think this is relevant to this thread-
The Joy of Tech comic... laughter is the best tech support.

 (not a reflection of my beliefs, so hold the flames please!!! Just try'n to light'n the mood abit)


----------



## immtbiker

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Budgie* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The Joy of Tech comic... laughter is the best tech support.)_


----------



## Grizzlepaw

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Grizzlepaw* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just thought I would draw moderator attention to this post.

 Definitely neither accurate nor cool...

 -Brad_

 

Thought that I might need to clarify on this post. What I was referring to that was neither accurate nor cool was his claim that Matthew Carter was still trolling this forum.

 I will freely admit that from time to time we will offer someone like Bigshot an opportunity to try the product that he venemously calls out, because we have a lot of confidence that once he hears the product that his tone will at least be moderated about it.

 It does make a difference in systems, and that difference is almost always positive.

 I'm dangerously close to making a straw-man of his position here, but I'm gonna guess that Bigshot has a lot of experience with "High End" products that honestly do not make a significant and positive difference in the end audible result. I doubt, however, if he has any direct experience with Virtual Dynamics.

 Also, in the interests of accuracy, my educational background is in documentary film-making, and I have some experience in the field of marketing (most of it from working at this job.) I have never sold a cable in my life, though I do take pictures and write ad copy.

 I am not a salesman. 

 -Brad


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Budgie* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think this is relevant to this thread-
The Joy of Tech comic... laughter is the best tech support.

 (not a reflection of my beliefs, so hold the flames please!!! Just try'n to light'n the mood abit)_

 

Very cute. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It gave me a smile.


----------



## bigshot

Here are my constructive suggestions.

 It's simple to convince me to consider your product. If you want me to try it out, provide objective testing that indicates a significant improvement... for instance an independently conducted double blind test of your cable against a range of low, medium and high end competitors.

 Then, once you have objectively proved the superiority of your product, test to find out exactly why it works the way it does, measure the degree of improvement, and explain all of that to me clearly without exaggeration or sales pitch.

 You're not going to convince me by seeding the forum with lots of subjective anecdotal opinions that describe sound in poetic vague terms and have no scientific explanation for what they observe. Your marketing campaign of providing freebee cables in exchange for reviews makes me totally suspicious of the validity of any reviews I see of your product, because of the lack of disclosure of the relationship between your company and the individual reviewers . A 90 day no questions asked money back guarantee is a much better way to allow people to try the products than throwing freebees around. And a hands off approach to reviewers will make me put more credence in what I hear about your products on this forum.

 You have a bit of a public relations job to do though. The people way the official representatives of VD on this forum have behaved in the past have pretty much made me write your whole company off. Pricing your products in line with normal business markups of consumer products would help too.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The bigger problem is, how can we trust the reviews of other posters if they're receiving "free gifts" as a "courtesy" to "help" them write [positive] reviews of the product. This is basically an attempt to plant shills in the board, and it seems to be working. Many of the positive reviews of VD products in this group appear to be from people who never paid for the wires they're reviewing.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

Well perhaps you should read a bunch of my posts and know that this certainly does not happen, at least not by me. I have made clear to the staff at VD "I do not kiss ass" and "I always praise a product or company when it deserves praise and condemn it when it deserves condemnation" and they have received _both_ from me, publically and privately.

 On the other hand, you like to knock a product when you haven't even listened to it and that makes you ignorant in the extreme. Your opinions on the sound quality of a VD cable are meaningless if you have not heard one in your own system. In fact, I'm not even sure if you have a passion for audio. If you did, you would be willing to try any product that could potentially make a difference. And with all the people here saying their products DO make a difference, it's ignorant of you to not try one out; you'd just rather be obstinate and argumentative.


----------



## bigshot

I admire your stated intention to "call them like you see them". But I'd prefer to have objective information from independent sources. You can call me ignorant for sticking to that if you want, but for my own purposes, I'd rather know that the person whose word I am taking isn't on the take himself.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I admire your stated intention to "call them like you see them". But I'd prefer to have objective information from independent sources. You can call me ignorant for sticking to that if you want, but for my own purposes, I'd rather know that the person whose word I am taking isn't on the take himself.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

No one suggests you take anyones word. But to not try a product that might be a benefit to your audio system is just plain silly. Discover firsthand for yourself if it's all hype. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Their cables and moreso their power cords are superb. Their company policies leave much to be desired. It's as simple as that.

 Companies like Shunyata and Synergistic Research make excellent cables, too! But from personal experience with all of the above (and more), Virtual Dynamics makes the best power cords.


----------



## JohnFerrier

Come on Steve, choose a power cable...

 A. $10.44 Volex 14 gauge shielded power cable sold at Newark.

 B. $300.00 Virtual Dynamics Power 3, (14 gauge, no shield).







 .


----------



## meat01

I'll take choice A. for $10.44 John. Thanks!


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No one suggests you take anyones word. But to not try a product that might be a benefit to your audio system is just plain silly. Discover firsthand for yourself if it's all hype._

 

There's no evidence that a fancy power cable would improve my system other than subjective anecdotal reports from people who may or may not have received free merchandise in exchange for their review. I have much more important things to do with my time than to chase down things like that.

 That's a moot point though, because I wouldn't plug a non-UL listed power cord into my wall socket anyway. I'm not going to risk losing everything in a house fire.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There's no evidence that a fancy power cable would improve my system other than subjective anecdotal reports from people who may or may not have received free merchandise in exchange for their review._

 

I paid for my Genesis.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have much more important things to do with my time than to chase down things like that._

 

But you have time to make 5000+ posts about cables being snake-oil?


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's a moot point though, because I wouldn't plug a non-UL listed power cord into my wall socket anyway. I'm not going to risk losing everything in a house fire._

 

I would never buy UL listed power cords because I don't want to pay more money for something that doesn't improve the sound at all...it is snake-oil, there is something wrong with the skeptics.


----------



## 883dave

We have been down this road before.

 Someone offered to purchase a power cord up to $2k for bigshot to try, he turned it down do to his amp not having a removable power cord.


----------



## monolith

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I would never buy UL listed power cords because I don't want to pay more money for something that doesn't improve the sound at all...it is snake-oil, there is something wrong with the skeptics._

 

Would you buy a car with seatbelts and airbags? They don't make the car go any faster.


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I paid for my Genesis._

 

I enjoy your subjective anecdotal reviews. You know how to be entertaining.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## pompon

Probably had a very special price.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have much more important things to do with my time than to chase down things like that._

 

Sure ya do... like sit here and rip on products you've never listened to. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 And if it's true that your amp doesn't have a removable power cord, why wouldn't you have just said that in the first place? (Of course that still has nothing to do with you being obstinate.)


----------



## barqy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I paid for my Genesis.

*But you have time to make 5000+ posts about cables being snake-oil?*

 I would never buy UL listed power cords because I don't want to pay more money for something that doesn't improve the sound at all...it is snake-oil, there is something wrong with the skeptics._


----------



## Uncle Erik

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sure ya do... like sit here and rip on products you've never listened to. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 And if it's true that your amp doesn't have a removable power cord, why wouldn't you have just said that in the first place? (Of course that still has nothing to do with you being obstinate.)_

 

In this thread (http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f21/ca...ml#post3992141) you said:

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* 
_At the moment, I'm quite upset with Virtual Dynamics (Rick Schultz in particular) but for an entirely different and completely justifiable reason (that has nothing to do with product quality or performance). Virtual Dynamics is falling apart at the seams; if they keep up their cavalier attitude towards customers, there won't be a Virtual Dynamics around to speak of in 2009. *They managed to lose a good customer I brought them, which in turn cost me commission.*_

 

 (Emphasis added.)

 Were you earning commissions without revealing yourself to be a Member of the Trade?

 Do you still work for Virtual Dynamics?


----------



## fraseyboy

Hmmm... I listened to my Testament 2.0 Coaxial Digital cable and it really does make a difference.

 Perhaps its only the VD power cables that are built this way?


----------



## gotchaforce

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Uncle Erik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_In this thread (http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f21/ca...ml#post3992141) you said:

 (Emphasis added.)

 Were you earning commissions without revealing yourself to be a Member of the Trade?

 Do you still work for Virtual Dynamics?_

 

Cant wait for ipodPJs response to this one hahaha


----------



## infinitesymphony

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Uncle Erik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_In this thread (http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f21/ca...ml#post3992141) you said:

 (Emphasis added.)

 Were you earning commissions without revealing yourself to be a Member of the Trade?

 Do you still work for Virtual Dynamics?_

 

IPodPJ works in an audio store... It's his job to recommend equipment to clients. I doubt he's earning commission from VD.

*Correction:* IPodPJ does _not_ work in an audio store and never has! I had mistaken him for someone else.


----------



## pompon

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fraseyboy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hmmm... I listened to my Testament 2.0 Coaxial Digital cable and it really does make a difference.

 Perhaps its only the VD power cables that are built this way?_

 

Only the Power3 FraseyBoy ...
 Other cables uses linipur (1 conductor instead multi twisted).

 Power3 use a standard wire but it's in a damping material (dynamic filtering)

 DIY'er can try a normal wire and use a RenoDepot house and fill it with sand to see what happening.

 The Power3 is sold 99$ ... 

 I heard Power3 vs my Nite and Master and another brand... Power3 was the cheeper price and It's good. I guess the biggest difference come from the dynamic filtering.

 HighEnd dac put a lot of effort to try to minimize the mechanical vibration ... (in DAC .. no moving parts) but they take in consideration (a lot) vibrations.

 If your powercable do a part of the job, I think it's a good thing.

 Virtual Dynamic should put in circulation Power3 with and without the dynamic filtering material.


----------



## Grizzlepaw

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Here are my constructive suggestions.

 It's simple to convince me to consider your product. If you want me to try it out, provide objective testing that indicates a significant improvement... for instance an independently conducted double blind test of your cable against a range of low, medium and high end competitors.

 Then, once you have objectively proved the superiority of your product, test to find out exactly why it works the way it does, measure the degree of improvement, and explain all of that to me clearly without exaggeration or sales pitch.

 You're not going to convince me by seeding the forum with lots of subjective anecdotal opinions that describe sound in poetic vague terms and have no scientific explanation for what they observe. Your marketing campaign of providing freebee cables in exchange for reviews makes me totally suspicious of the validity of any reviews I see of your product, because of the lack of disclosure of the relationship between your company and the individual reviewers . A 90 day no questions asked money back guarantee is a much better way to allow people to try the products than throwing freebees around. And a hands off approach to reviewers will make me put more credence in what I hear about your products on this forum.

 You have a bit of a public relations job to do though. The people way the official representatives of VD on this forum have behaved in the past have pretty much made me write your whole company off. Pricing your products in line with normal business markups of consumer products would help too.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

Interestingly enough I have the preliminary results of a DBT of our interconnects in my email inbox. We won't be presenting them until the middle of May (once the paper is finished) but it shows a definite correlation between the dynamic filtering and SOL (magnet) technologies and an increase in slew rate.

 I realize that just having my word on it isn't gonna be good anough for anyone, it wouldn't be good enough for me... Which is why we are putting in the money and time to have them tested by a third party (which doesn't mean we are paying to have them tested... the testing is being done for free, the money is the investment of materials, shipping, plane tickets to go down and film the results, ect.) 

 So yeah, if that is really all it is gonna take Bigshot, then I expect a sales order from you to be crossing Rita's desk within 3 months or so... assuming that you aren't misrepresenting your position. There does remain the possibility, however, that you aren't actually interested in improving your sound and your components, but intellectually invested in stroking your ego on this board. I'm going to be generous and assume you actually meant what you said... 

 Additionally, when you talk about our markups, do you want us to increase the price? Because if we were to bring our cables in line with other products in our industry we would have to double our current listed retail, at a minimum. Production cost is something we are trying quite hard to reduce, but getting the cables built in China just doesn't seem like a viable idea for us.

 The best way for us to bring production costs, and therefore the price to our end user, down at this point is for us to increase our volume, which means increasing market share. We're working on that.

 -Brad

 PS. The results will be out sometime after May 5th.


----------



## Uncle Erik

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *infinitesymphony* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_IPodPJ works in an audio store... It's his job to recommend equipment to clients. I doubt he's earning commission from VD._

 

Those are his words taken directly from his post. If he is earning commissions from audio companies, he is a Member of the Trade.


----------



## gotchaforce

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Uncle Erik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Those are his words taken directly from his post. If he is earning commissions from audio companies, he is a Member of the Trade._

 

Also i didnt even know that virtual dynamics had dealers.. i thought they were only internet direct for now??


----------



## rootbeer

Kill cat imo


----------



## Fitz

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rootbeer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Kill cat imo_

 

You fail imo


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *infinitesymphony* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_IPodPJ works in an audio store... It's his job to recommend equipment to clients. I doubt he's earning commission from VD._

 

What the heck are you talking about? That's a complete and outright lie. You are confusing me with someone else. I have never worked in an audio store in my life. I have worked in the printing and graphics industry for the past 15 years.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Uncle Erik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Were you earning commissions without revealing yourself to be a Member of the Trade?

 Do you still work for Virtual Dynamics?_

 

LMAO. I have never worked for Virtual Dynamics. Matt Carter e-mailed me privately OUTSIDE OF HEAD-FI and told me that he would give me 10% commission on any orders that resulted from customers I sent their way. The one and ONLY customer I brought him was my neighbor (who is not a member of Head-Fi), and Rick managed to piss him off and screw up his order so bad that he will never order anything from them ever again, which is unfortunate for people like Matt and Brad who actually do try hard to keep the customer happy.

 Don't accuse anyone of anything until you get your facts straight. Assumption is the mother of all f-ups.

 I'm a straight shooter and play by the rules. I don't kiss ass or take bribes, never have and never will. I won a VD contest fair and square (you are welcome to visit the thread and see my design that won the contest). And obviously I don't have to answer to you or anybody else.


----------



## kpeezy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_LMAO. I have never worked for Virtual Dynamics. Matt Carter e-mailed me privately OUTSIDE OF HEAD-FI and told me that he would give me 10% commission on any customers I brought him. The one and ONLY customer I brought him was my neighbor.

 Don't accuse anyone of anything until you get your facts straight. Assumption is the mother of all f-ups._

 

Hahaha........ Wow. So, that's the work around huh? Just don't use the pm system and it's all cool


----------



## Fitz

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_LMAO. I have never worked for Virtual Dynamics. Matt Carter e-mailed me privately OUTSIDE OF HEAD-FI and told me that he would give me 10% commission on any customers I brought him. The one and ONLY customer I brought him was my neighbor, and Rick managed to piss him off and screw up his order so bad that he will never order anything from them ever again, which is unfortunate for people like Matt and Brad who actually do try hard to keep the customer happy.

 Don't accuse anyone of anything until you get your facts straight. Assumption is the mother of all f-ups.

 I'm a straight shooter and play by the rules. I don't kiss ass or take bribes, never have and never will. I won a VD contest fair and square (you are welcome to visit the thread and see my design that won the contest). And obviously I don't have to answer to you or anybody else._

 

You have that pistol aimed squarely at your foot, man...


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Fitz* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You have that pistol aimed squarely at your foot, man... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

How do you figure that? You've never earned commission on a referral before? Your friend has never given you tickets to a ball game for referring a customer his way? Give me a break, man. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 If I didn't think their products sounded good, I wouldn't recommend them to anyone. Some of you people belong in the mob.

 Earning a commission (as an incentive to inform people about products which happen to be very good and which I believe EVERYONE would benefit from) doesn't mean you are employed by a company or are on their payroll. And FYI, him offering me commission was extremely recent, no more than 6 weeks ago. But since they upset the one and only customer I brought them, I really have no desire to see anyone else get put through the same fiasco.


----------



## saint.panda

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Uncle Erik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Were you earning commissions without revealing yourself to be a Member of the Trade?_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Matt Carter e-mailed me privately OUTSIDE OF HEAD-FI and told me that he would give me 10% commission on any orders that resulted from customers I sent their way._


----------



## Pangaea

*Best thread ever.* _Just when I think I'm out they pull me back in._


----------



## immtbiker

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_...And FYI, him offering me commission was extremely recent, no more than 6 weeks ago..._

 

No more than 6 weeks ago? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Wasn't Matt Carter (Acoustic Chef) banned before that? Yes he was. He was banned on Feb 9th. You dealt with him after the ban?


----------



## Fitz

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Give me a break, man. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

That's what I was trying to do by giving you a friendly warning, since you didn't seem to be aware of how you were acting. But if you'd rather just make an ass of yourself in front of everyone and snap at anyone who tries to caution you otherwise, then be my guest.


----------



## The Monkey

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How do you figure that? You've never earned commission on a referral before? Your friend has never given you tickets to a ball game for referring a customer his way? Give me a break, man. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 If I didn't think their products sounded good, I wouldn't recommend them to anyone. Some of you people belong in the mob.

 Earning a commission (as an incentive to inform people about products which happen to be very good and which I believe EVERYONE would benefit from) doesn't mean you are employed by a company or are on their payroll. And FYI, him offering me commission was extremely recent, no more than 6 weeks ago. But since they upset the one and only customer I brought them, I really have no desire to see anyone else get put through the same fiasco._

 

Don't you think that your credibility takes a hit by not disclosing this info earlier?


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *immtbiker* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No more than 6 weeks ago? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Wasn't Matt Carter (Acoustic Chef) banned before that? Yes he was. He was banned on Feb 9th. You dealt with him after the ban?_

 

I didn't know it was against the rules to deal with an employee of a company outside of Head-Fi. I didn't know that a ban was universally acknowledged. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Believe me, I probably cautioned him of his behavior on Head-Fi more than anyone else here. I am pretty sure he regrets it, but I cannot speak for him.

 Matt was the first person I dealt with at Virtual Dynamics, and he has extended certain courtesies to me regarding payment of a product that other MOTs have also extended me. He has always been kind to me and we have conversed often through e-mail.

 Let me again clarify: I was not receiving monetary compensation for my referrals, only credit towards purchases. I consider that to be "commission" but perhaps you don't. It seems many people here are interested in all the semantics of my business. And for the life of me I can't seem to understand what the big deal is. But I know some of you are dying to know: I received a whole $95 in product credit. Whoopee!

 I don't know why some of you feel the need to attack me but I have never once lied or withheld any information from anyone here. If I was trying to keep some private deal secret, I would never have mentioned it in post(s) in the first place. I have never written biased reviews of their products or been compensated for a review. If anything, I have been more critical of their company policies in public than most people would ever think about posting. I'm the last person that deserves accusations.

 No matter what forum you go to, someone is always the victim of a witch hunt.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *The Monkey* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Don't you think that your credibility takes a hit by not disclosing this info earlier?_

 

Please see my last post.

 Obviously as pointed out by another member, I had previously mentioned it on Head-Fi. Do you feel it necessary for me to post that in every single thread about Virtual Dynamics cables? If not, what would be the proper thread to mention that in? Was the thread I mentioned it in not a proper place to do so? Or should I start a thread specifically to outline the details of my dealings with Virtual Dynamics? (I'm not being sarcastic here, just trying to give an honest reply and asking for the proper answer.)


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Fitz* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's what I was trying to do by giving you a friendly warning, since you didn't seem to be aware of how you were acting. But if you'd rather just make an ass of yourself in front of everyone and snap at anyone who tries to caution you otherwise, then be my guest. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Sorry, but it didn't seem friendly. I apologize for snapping at you if that's all you intended.


----------



## immtbiker

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_...and he has extended certain courtesies to me regarding payment of a product that other MOTs have also extended me._

 

Other MOT's? The plot thickens.


----------



## infinitesymphony

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What the heck are you talking about? That's a complete and outright lie. You are confusing me with someone else. I have never worked in an audio store in my life. I have worked in the printing and graphics industry for the past 15 years._

 

Ack, I'm sorry... Now I remember you mentioning graphic design before (and entering the VD design competition). I did have you confused with another Head-Fier, but now I'm not sure whom. My mistake! Again, sorry about the confusion.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *immtbiker* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Other MOT's? The plot thickens. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

You are ridiculous. It's like the Salem witchcraft trials. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 You're actively looking for drama. It seems like rather immature behavior for a moderator.

 Yes, other MOTs have also offered me PAYMENT INSTALLMENTS on product. You have a problem with that? Is that against T&C? Can a MOT not extend me credit?

 Would you like to see my birth certificate? Bank statements? Proof of circumcision?


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *infinitesymphony* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ack, I'm sorry... Now I remember you mentioning graphic design before (and entering the VD design competition). I did have you confused with another Head-Fier, but now I'm not sure whom. My mistake! Again, sorry about the confusion._

 

No problem.


----------



## kpeezy

IpodPJ, I thought you said your friend spent quite a bit more than $1000. 10% commision from his purchases is a bit more that $95. Correct me if I'm wrong on the amount... I'm not digging through your posts to find it.

 Thanks, 

 Kyle


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kpeezy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_IpodPJ, I thought you said your friend spent quite a bit more than $1000. 10% commision from his purchases is a bit more that $95. Correct me if I'm wrong on the amount... I'm not digging through your posts to find it.

 Thanks, 

 Kyle_

 

He had initially spent around $4,000.

 Then he spent $3,500 but he wound up cancelling that order.

 Right around that time Matt offered me the product credit deal for referrals.

 Then he spent $950 on another power cable.

 Thus, $95 credit.

 Anything else you guys would like to know?


----------



## The Monkey

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Please see my last post.

 Obviously as pointed out by another member, I had previously mentioned it on Head-Fi. Do you feel it necessary for me to post that in every single thread about Virtual Dynamics cables? If not, what would be the proper thread to mention that in? Was the thread I mentioned it in not a proper place to do so? Or should I start a thread specifically to outline the details of my dealings with Virtual Dynamics? (I'm not being sarcastic here, just trying to give an honest reply and asking for the proper answer.)_

 

I don't think it necessary to post in every thread--sorry if I missed the disclosure post. A good solution would be to disclose in your sig and/or profile.


----------



## manaox2

Very nice coincidence here with the suspicion on some head-fiers thread suddenly. 

 Time to take heed that this is a serious addiction when the MoT offer you installments for more.


----------



## infinitesymphony

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *manaox2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Very nice coincidence here with the suspicion on some head-fiers thread suddenly. 

 Time to take heed that this is a serious addiction when the MoT offer you installments for more. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Makes me wonder what Patrick82 is qualified to buy...


----------



## shigzeo

i am just so happy to have seen patrick82 again... i guess that the circles i hang out with don't hit his circles. i thought he had disappeared. in any case, i have loved this thread since the beginning.

 personally, all my cables are purchased with first: looks and usability and then: perceived improvement in mind.

 i like thin, bendable ics for my portables and amps (when i had the amps) so i could do acrobatics with them without worrying for my connectors. 

 now, i just enjoy reading about expensive cables and good advertising and then a little mystery here and there. 

 i was not given apples to say this.


----------



## eldwar

what about oranges?


----------



## dfkt

Breaking news! The Absolute Best Sounding Cables Ever - Velumnatics AudioPhlow


----------



## scompton

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Please see my last post.

 Obviously as pointed out by another member, I had previously mentioned it on Head-Fi. Do you feel it necessary for me to post that in every single thread about Virtual Dynamics cables? If not, what would be the proper thread to mention that in? Was the thread I mentioned it in not a proper place to do so? Or should I start a thread specifically to outline the details of my dealings with Virtual Dynamics? (I'm not being sarcastic here, just trying to give an honest reply and asking for the proper answer.)_

 

If your getting commissions from anyone, that makes you at least an independent contractor for the company giving you commissions. If that company is an audio company, IMO that makes you a MOT by my interpretations of the rules of use. So no, you shouldn't have to post it in every thread. You just register as an MOT and it shows up in every post.


----------



## tomjtx

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dfkt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Breaking news! The Absolute Best Sounding Cables Ever - Velumnatics AudioPhlow_

 

Swim and flow?

 What utter BS. That "reviewer" sounds like an idiot. IMO


----------



## Jon118

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tomjtx* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Swim and flow?

 What utter BS. That "reviewer" sounds like an idiot. IMO _

 

I guess you checked the posting date of the article.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It looks like that article was directed at this thread from the build of those cables, and the kitten attack reference. I just want to know where I can get a pair!


----------



## JohnFerrier

AudioPhlow 420, $2940 (retail)



 image links to review

 "The cabling itself is a technology licensed from a German aerospace firm called Gaurdenhose Polyimeplastic. This tech enables the blend of several different plastics with audiophile particles in order to make the best sound isolation within the cable. But this also lends to a very durable build quality that will fend off any kitten attack."

 "Music just came to life and basically as the liquid technology suggests, it just swam, moved, flowed and grooved. It’s really hard to describe the realism of this cable and how it brings music to life; it is something that needs to be witnessed. Are they worth the $3000 price tag? Simply, yes." 


 .


----------



## scompton

Quote:


 Gaurdenhose Polyimeplastic


----------



## Pangaea

I think after reading thru all this I am mostly just impressed by the Cat. I am not sure my Dog could get thru garden hose.


----------



## Febs

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dfkt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Breaking news! The Absolute Best Sounding Cables Ever - Velumnatics AudioPhlow_

 

Now *that*, without a doubt, is [size=x-large]*GOOD STUFF*[/size]!


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_LMAO. I have never worked for Virtual Dynamics. Matt Carter e-mailed me privately OUTSIDE OF HEAD-FI and told me that he would give me 10% commission on any orders that resulted from customers I sent their way._

 

This is EXACTLY the sort of thing that I'm talking about. Back door deals like this have the potential to kill this forum. How we can't be sure that the advice we're receiving from you isn't motivated by your commission? You have been a loud defender of high end cables for a while. Now I know why.

 How many posters here are on the take?

 Disgusted
 Steve


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Grizzlepaw* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I realize that just having my word on it isn't gonna be good anough for anyone, it wouldn't be good enough for me... Which is why we are putting in the money and time to have them tested by a third party (which doesn't mean we are paying to have them tested... the testing is being done for free, the money is the investment of materials, shipping, plane tickets to go down and film the results, ect.)_

 

I'm sorry pal, but your credibility is hovering right around zero right now. Why should I believe you kept your fingers out of this test when you've been paying commissions to forum members to steer people to your products? How many posters here do you have working for you?

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Let me again clarify: I was not receiving monetary compensation for my referrals, only credit towards purchases._

 

You've been working on a commission basis and you have accepted freebies. You're done, man. Pack it up.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *The Monkey* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't think it necessary to post in every thread--sorry if I missed the disclosure post. A good solution would be to disclose in your sig and/or profile._

 

I think they have "Member of the Trade" designation for that.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Febs* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Now *that*, without a doubt, is [size=x-large]*GOOD STUFF*[/size]!_

 

Most definitely! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Made me laugh.

 Funny thing though, there is a cable manufacturer that puts a sheath of vinyl filled with water around their cables. I forget who makes it, but it's supposed to be just another method of filtering. Some use a negative voltage, some use water, some use ferrite beads.... the stuff by Machina Dynamica, well that's just stupid.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This is EXACTLY the sort of thing that I'm talking about. Back door deals like this have the potential to kill this forum. How we can't be sure that the advice we're receiving from you isn't motivated by your commission? You have been a loud defender of high end cables for a while. Now I know why._

 

If a product is good, I recommend it. If a product isn't good, I don't. End of story. I was telling people about their product way before I received any product credit from them.

 I went through all of this yesterday and all of my replies are already in the posts. I'm not going to repeat it again, especially with you Steve.

 If it's against TOS (which apparently it is), then it won't happen again without me first making note of it in my signature or profile like Monkey suggested. I have never kept ANYTHING secret from this forum and for you to imply that I have (or have recommended a product that I don't believe in) is not only insulting but tantamount to slander.


----------



## kpeezy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If a product is good, I recommend it. If a product isn't good, I don't. End of story. I was telling people about their product way before I received any product credit from them.

 I went through all of this yesterday and all of my replies are already in the posts. I'm not going to repeat it again, especially with you Steve.

 If it's against TOS (which apparently it is), then it won't happen again without me first making note of it in my signature or profile like Monkey suggested. I have never kept ANYTHING secret from this forum and for you to imply that I have (or have recommended a product that I don't believe in) is not only insulting but tantamount to slander._

 

Ugggggh shut up.


----------



## SoundGoon

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dfkt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Breaking news! The Absolute Best Sounding Cables Ever - Velumnatics AudioPhlow_

 

LOL!!! That made me laugh so hard, especially the pics, how they are trying to be kinda artsy and then you get a closeup of the hose and electrical tape. Great stuff!!!! Happy April Fools!


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If a product is good, I recommend it. If a product isn't good, I don't. End of story. I was telling people about their product way before I received any product credit from them._

 

Since you received payment from Virtual Dynamics for your referral services you should register as a member of the trade according to the terms of use of this site. There won't be an end of story until you do that.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## meat01

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kpeezy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ugggggh shut up._

 

You don't have to read it, but he has every right to post. Besides, some are entertained by hearing him plead his case er, dig himself deeper.


----------



## kpeezy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *meat01* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You don't have to read it, but he has every right to post. Besides, some are entertained by hearing him plead his case er, dig himself deeper._

 

Edit: Right on


----------



## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm sorry pal, but your credibility is hovering right around zero right now. Why should I believe you kept your fingers out of this test when you've been paying commissions to forum members to steer people to your products? How many posters here do you have working for you?

 See ya
 Steve_

 

I'm lucky, I don't have that problem because my credibility has always been zero. Building up credibility is like climbing up a skyscraper, eventually you reach the top and if the wind doesn't blow you off someone else will. It will be messy.

 I wish I had known about commission 3 years ago when I first bought my Nordost Valhalla cables, then I would have wired my whole apartment with that cable! I guess I have been raving for nothing. Nordost doesn't even know I exist.

 If I start taking commision from Virtual Dynamics then only two things can happen: *1)* I will not stop until I have enough Genesis wiring between my house and the nuclear power plant. *2)* They will lock me up before I could finish the tweak.


----------



## scompton

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm lucky, I don't have that problem because my credibility has always been zero._

 

Best quote ever


----------



## infinitesymphony

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This is EXACTLY the sort of thing that I'm talking about. Back door deals like this have the potential to kill this forum. How we can't be sure that the advice we're receiving from you isn't motivated by your commission? You have been a loud defender of high end cables for a while. Now I know why.

 How many posters here are on the take?

 Disgusted
 Steve_

 

You're in the audio business. Where's your Member of the Trade designation? You're probably just trying to sell us remasters of 78s, right? We can never trust your opinions about vintage music again...


----------



## immtbiker

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You are ridiculous. It's like the Salem witchcraft trials. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 You're actively looking for drama. It seems like rather immature behavior for a moderator.

 Yes, other MOTs have also offered me PAYMENT INSTALLMENTS on product. You have a problem with that? Is that against T&C? Can a MOT not extend me credit?

 Would you like to see my birth certificate? Bank statements? Proof of circumcision? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Yes I do have a problem with that, *and *your attitude:

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Terms of Use* 
_A Member of the Trade may not--via the forums, Private Messaging, or Head-Fi's e-mail relay function--volunteer any information about a specific product that he is selling or making, in response to a general request for information about a type of product or in any other discussion in the Main Forums. 

 A Member of the Trade may not post announcements, advertisements, sales information or the like about a product he makes or sells in the Main Forums, via Private Messaging, or via Head-Fi's e-mail relay function.

 No advertising by Members of the Trade that is not pre-approved by the Head-Fi administrators is allowed in the member forums. Some sponsors have Branded Sponsor Forums in which they will be allowed to advertise their wares. There will also be designated areas and forums where sponsors and non-sponsors alike will be able to advertise their wares. Head-Fi is most definately NOT anti-trade. In fact, trade members are a welcome and vital part of the Head-Fi community. However, Head-Fi's Main Forums, its Private Messaging System, or its e-mail relay function are not to be used for unsolicited self promotion and advertising of audio products or services._

 

You are clearly enabling an infraction of a series of rules that make sure that one MOT doesn't have a clear advantage over another.

 I also wonder why you edited your original post of which I have a copy of. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Immature, indeed! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I *will*, however, take proof of your circumcision, as long as it's in certificate form and not the actual component.
 A circumcision is a true definition of a 10% discount!


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *immtbiker* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 Originally Posted by Terms of Use
 A Member of the Trade may not--via the forums, Private Messaging, or Head-Fi's e-mail relay function--volunteer any information about a specific product that he is selling or making, in response to a general request for information about a type of product or in any other discussion in the Main Forums._

 

-- Was not via the forums, was to NON HEAD-FI MEMBERS
 -- Was not through Private Messaging
 -- Was not through Head-Fi's e-mail relay function, nor was his e-mail ever acquired in that fashion

  Quote:


 You are clearly enabling an infraction of a series of rules that make sure that one MOT doesn't have a clear advantage over another. 
 

Like I said, I was unaware of those rules. Now that I am aware of them, I will be sure to uphold them. But I never violated the TOS since I never tried to solicit a Head-Fi member. I posted both positive and negative reviews, as does everyone else, and would recommend a product on its own merits, as does everyone else.

  Quote:


 I also wonder why you edited your original post of which I have a copy of. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Immature, indeed! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 

If you haven't noticed, I edit 99% of my posts. I like to review my posts for grammar and content. In addition, if I see something I typed that was inappropriate, I do my best to rectify it. That's the _mature_ thing to do.

  Quote:


 I *will*, however, take proof of your circumcision, as long as it's in certificate form and not the actual component. A circumcision is a true definition of a 10% discount! 
 

Oh, so now you're playing favorites. I see how the moderators around here work.


----------



## Dzjudz

Just an observation: some people here really need to get acquainted with the "multi-quote" option. It is so annoying to see 4 or 5 posts by the same person quoting a different thing.

 You see the "quote" button you always press when quoting somebody? Right next to it is a button called "multi".

 Use it please.


----------



## immtbiker

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Dzjudz* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just an observation_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Dzjudz* 
_some people here really need to get acquainted with the "multi-quote" option._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dzjudz* 
_It is so annoying to see 4 or 5 posts by the same person quoting a different thing._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dzjudz* 
_You see the "quote" button you always press when quoting somebody? Right next to it is a button called "multi"._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dzjudz* 
_Use it please_

 


 Like this. This way, it doesn't falsely inflate your post count.


----------



## pompon

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *immtbiker* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Like this. This way, it doesn't falsely inflate your post count._

 

Somes want have a big post count to be considered as hardcore.


----------



## immtbiker

That would be the false inflation that I'm talking about. Quality, not quantity is what makes a person a valued asset on an information forum.
 There's a big difference between someone who's been on since 2006 and has 8000 posts, and someone who has been on since 2001 and has 5000 posts.


----------



## fishski13

IPodPJ,
 your actions can easly be interpreted as shilling. it doesn't matter if your correspondence with VD is via Head-Fi bandwidth or not. 

 PACE


----------



## spacemanspliff

lol

 Velumnatics AudioPhlow

 the music just flows.....hooked it up to an old Sony boombox....

 custom terminated garden hose ftw!

 yay!!


----------



## furball

Thank you bigshot for finally digging this up! I've always suspected that there are a few rotten tomatoes in this field.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You've been working on a commission basis and you have accepted freebies. You're done, man. Pack it up.

 See ya
 Steve_


----------



## UseName

I love bigshot... 

 Good job not taking that powercord. The company is so shady I would hate to have to deal with them for anything, even if it is 'free'.

 Edit: Has IPodPJ been banned yet? he certainly should be...


----------



## 883dave

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *UseName* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I love bigshot... 

 Good job not taking that powercord. The company is so shady I would hate to have to deal with them for anything, even if it is 'free'.

 Edit: Has IPodPJ been banned yet? he certainly should be..._

 


 Well now I have seen it all.

 We now have head-fi Groupie's


----------



## tomjtx

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *883dave* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well now I have seen it all.

 We now have head-fi Groupie's 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Respecting someone for their integrity and courtesy is hardly being a groupie.

 Recognizing that IpodPJ has made himself vulnerable to the charge he is a shill is unavoidable at this point, IMO.


----------



## gotchaforce

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *UseName* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 Edit: Has IPodPJ been banned yet? he certainly should be..._

 

Dont post if youre just going to make stupid kneejerk comments.


----------



## fraseyboy

Hmmm... If the commission IpodPJ got was just for one purchase that a friend he referred made then doesn't that mean there is no affiliation? If it was like he got 10% for every purchase then that's an affiliation...

 But if its just because he referred a neighbor to VD because he liked VD's products, and then VD offered to give some money to him because of this, I don't see what's wrong with that.

 Then again, I'm not very experienced in this field...


----------



## kpeezy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fraseyboy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hmmm... If the commission IpodPJ got was just for one purchase that a friend he referred made then doesn't that mean there is no affiliation? If it was like he got 10% for every purchase then that's an affiliation...

 But if its just because he referred a neighbor to VD because he liked VD's products, and then VD offered to give some money to him because of this, I don't see what's wrong with that.

 Then again, I'm not very experienced in this field..._

 

No...


----------



## UseName

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gotchaforce* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Dont post if youre just going to make stupid kneejerk comments._

 

If I want to post kneejerk comments and look like an ******, I'm pretty sure it doesn't voilate any terms and conditions. 

 Regardless, this is not a kneejerk comment. I find it disgusting that there is this much deceipt on this forum. I mean, do you REALLY want to ask advice from people who may be taking commission on the advice they are giving? This info needs to be disclosed to keep the forum honest. It it is not honest, why am I posting here?


----------



## The Monkey

Take heed.


----------



## spacemanspliff

Yup. Seems DIY is the only way to be absolutely certain of what your cables are made of.


----------



## BIG POPPA

"Like the sands of an hourglass, so are the days of our Head-fi"
 OMG, this is a Soap....IMO


----------



## adanac061

Just wanna say this thread is awesome.....
 ...I went through a whole roast dinner, ice cream dessert and two beers reading through it from the beginning...better than anything on tv.


----------



## TheMarchingMule

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *adanac061* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just wanna say this thread is awesome.....
 ...I went through a whole roast dinner, ice cream dessert and two beers reading through it from the beginning...better than anything on tv._

 

Seriously?


----------



## chesebert

few things observed:
 1. not knowing the rules is not a defense to the violation of the rules. Public policy dictates that, unless we all prefer chaos; as between rules and no rules, order and chaos, there is no middle ground.

 2. Participation in a referral program as a consumer on a sporadic basis hardly qualifies one to be MoT. 

 No one should raise any controversy that MoT also means Member of the Commerce; with the subject of the commerce being the audio product. No one should further raise any controversy regarding the nature of the commerce; which in this case most of the commerce is interstate, as in the product has traveled through several states, or between the several states and a foreign state. 

 We can therefore re characterize Member of Trade as Member of Interstate Commerce of which the audio product is the subject.

 So the question is what type of activity would qualify someone to be engaged in interstate commerce. At one end of the extreme you have brother A selling his headphone to brother B in another state and B gives A consideration in exchange for the headphone. At the other end of the extreme, you have AKG shipping and selling millions of headphones across multiple state lines throughout the country to millions of individual and businesses. 

 It is without a doubt that AKG is conducting interstate commerce while the brothers are not, to say otherwise is to twist the word 'commerce' beyond what's reasonable. 

 To distill the former example to a general principle is to say interstate commerce does not mean singular or isolated selling of goods across the states, rather interstate commerce requires a systematic and multiple selling of goods across the states, or at least a desire to systematically sell multiple products across the states. 

 The recipients of most friends referral program benefits can hardly be characterized as interstate commerce. Granted, if the recipient receives systematic and multiple benefits from program benefit offeror, it is certainly possible to say that he recipient has engaged in interstate commerce; since there must be a direct and proportional relationship between the number of individual commerce moments and the frequency of those moments. 

 Therefore if the offeree of the referral program has only received benefits once last month, the person cannot be characterized as Member of the Interstate Commerce on audio products; on the contrary, if the offeree of the referral program has been receiving multiple benefits from the benefit offeror and there is direct and proportional relationship between the number benefit giving moments and the frequency of those moments, then it would be a good policy to label the person as MoT.


----------



## Febs

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *chesebert* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_We can therefore re characterize Member of Trade as Member of Interstate Commerce of which the audio product is the subject._

 

Once again, you are trying to force the discussion into the framework of a U.S. Constitutional Law analysis where that type of analysis has nothing whatsoever to do with the subject at hand.


----------



## chesebert

Feb: 

 Yes there is the 'interstate commerce' clause in the US Constitution, but that has nothing to do with what I said. If your response to any argument with 'interstate commerce' in it as 'an argument on the framework of the US Constitution' then you are just confused. I don't know why, but you are confused.


----------



## Uncle Erik

If you want to get legal about it, the MOT deal is a lot more like a conflict of interest. You know, where a judge isn't supposed to hear a case where he or she has a financial interest in a party. Or an attorney who has a personal stake in the outcome of a case.

 Those are unethical practices.

 Another unethical practice is selling things to people without telling them that you have a financial interest in that company. You can muddy the waters all you want, but earning commissions, perks, free gear, etc. in exchange for sales means that you have a financial interest.


----------



## chesebert

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Uncle Erik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If you want to get legal about it, the MOT deal is a lot more like a conflict of interest. You know, where a judge isn't supposed to hear a case where he or she has a financial interest in a party. Or an attorney who has a personal stake in the outcome of a case.

 Those are unethical practices.

 Another unethical practice is selling things to people without telling them that you have a financial interest in that company._

 

I agree with everything you have just said. But does participation in a referral program as a consumer on a sporadic and isolated basis qualifies one to be categorized as MoT? - that's the question I have attempted to answer in the prior post.

 One final note: the ethical standards imposed on legal professionals is much higher than that of an average lay consumer; therefore the learned legal professional shouldn't hold a lay person to the same high ethical standards


----------



## adanac061

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *chesebert* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I agree with everything you have just said. But does participation in a referral program as a consumer on a sporadic and isolated basis qualifies one to be categorized as MoT? - that's the question I have attempted to answer in the prior post.
_

 

As it stands, I don't think so. There would need to be a consistent working relationship between the company and the member for the member to be designated as MOT.


----------



## 883dave

Could all the lawyers, who are having discourse about legal issues pertaining to this matter, please clearly state they are actually, in fact members of the bar.
 Thanks


----------



## spacemanspliff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *883dave* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Could all the lawyers, who are having discourse about legal issues pertaining to this matter, please clearly state they are actually, in fact members of the bar.
 Thanks_

 

My little brother is a member. Can I pretend to be him? lol

 He is so damn clueless about audio it is not funny. Unreal that he can pass the bar and be brilliant but has no understanding of even the basics of audio.


----------



## scompton

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *chesebert* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I agree with everything you have just said. But does participation in a referral program as a consumer on a sporadic and isolated basis qualifies one to be categorized as MoT? - that's the question I have attempted to answer in the prior post._

 

In general, I agree with you. But, the problem is non disclosure. If a person is receiving commissions, and discounts are commissions, there is a chance that they will start to shill. If it's disclosed, others know that they may take the opinions with a grain of salt.


----------



## tomjtx

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *883dave* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Could all the lawyers, who are having discourse about legal issues pertaining to this matter, please clearly state they are actually, in fact members of the bar.
 Thanks_

 


 Members of the bar would be MOB for short.

 I, for one, would certainly want to know if we have any MOB members on here


----------



## adanac061

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tomjtx* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Members of the bar would be MOB for short.

 I, for one, would certainly want to know if we have any MOB members on here _

 

What Head-Fi tag would you get if you were in the Association of Scottish Solicitors.


----------



## Uncle Erik

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *adanac061* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What Head-Fi tag would you get if you were in the Association of Scottish Solicitors. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

You get a little shark under your tag and you have to present a one hour CLE on Headphone Law at a meet. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 For full disclosure, I'm an active member in good standing.


----------



## Grizzlepaw

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm sorry pal, but your credibility is hovering right around zero right now. Why should I believe you kept your fingers out of this test when you've been paying commissions to forum members to steer people to your products? How many posters here do you have working for you?

 See ya
 Steve_

 

Credit for refferrals =/= commissions

 let me spell out the difference for you.

 1. If he was getting money then he could use the money on whatever he wanted, and would therefore be more inclined to push a poor product.

 2. What he is receiving is credit toward future purchases, which means he does genuinely like the product, otherwise why would he be working to get more of it

 Tons of companies have referral progams where a discount is given to referred customers, and to the person who reffered them. Your suggestion that we are paying people here to be on one side of this debate is a straw-man argument. It's very clear exactly what is going on here, but it's also clear that you seem to have some interest in portraying it as something that it isn't.

 It is a referral program. It's a fairly usual way to do business.

 Mechanical dampening in the power three, and all our cables, makes a clear difference.

 Do you think we paid off this guy?
 VV
I won a Virtual Dynamics Power 3 Cable - TalkBass Forums

 If you've got a beef with manufacturers of high-end cable, then fine, I get it. You've got a bone to pick and a dog in every fight. IF you want to try this product you can for the cost of shipping, I will send you one and then you can rail on me until the cows come home about what horrible hideous people we are at Virtual Dynamics, and how we make babies cry in everything we do.

 Your impression of our company is based in your bias, and not in reality.

 -Brad


----------



## kpeezy

ahh... must delete.


----------



## 883dave

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *scompton* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_In general, I agree with you. But, the problem is non disclosure. If a person is receiving commissions, and discounts are commissions, there is a chance that they will start to shill. If it's disclosed, others know that they may take the opinions with a grain of salt._

 

Last time I purchased an amp from RSA, I mentioned I would be looking at purchasing one for my son in law in the near future.
 Ray advised that if I purchased both together he would knock of some money and pay for postage
 Also Ken at ALO has regularly given me a discount on purchases and discounted shipping.

 I also got a discount on my last several audio purchases

 Do I now have to say that I am a member of the trade representing

 1. RSA
 2. Wilson Audio
 3. Black Diamond Racing
 4. Graham Engineering
 5. Benz Micro
 6. Sim Audio
 7. ALO
 etc.etc.etc

 I also just purchased several new albums, at which time I received a "Discount", 10% off plus no tax

 Am I now a member of the trade for

 1. Mobile fidelity
 2. Classic Records
 3. Vinyl Lovers
 4. RTI
 5. S&P Records

 If this is the case I would suspect that everyone on this forum is a shill....

 Lets keep it real


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


 Participation in a referral program as a consumer on a sporadic basis hardly qualifies one to be MoT. 
 

How does one determine when they are "sporadic"? Do they officially quit selling, or are they just without a sales prospect? If someone on HeadFi decided to buy cables based on his recommendation, do you really think he would refuse the commission because he was "off duty"?

 When you enter into an agreement to sell for a company, you should let folks know that.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## adanac061

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *883dave* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Last time I purchased an amp from RSA, I mentioned I would be looking at purchasing one for my son in law in the near future.
 Ray advised that if I purchased both together he would knock of some money and pay for postage
 Also Ken at ALO has regularly given me a discount on purchases and discounted shipping.

 I also got a discount on my last several audio purchases

 Do I now have to say that I am a member of the trade representing

 1. RSA
 2. Wilson Audio
 3. Black Diamond Racing
 4. Graham Engineering
 5. Benz Micro
 6. Sim Audio
 7. ALO
 etc.etc.etc

 I also just purchased several new albums, at which time I received a "Discount", 10% off plus no tax

 Am I now a member of the trade for

 1. Mobile fidelity
 2. Classic Records
 3. Vinyl Lovers
 4. RTI
 5. S&P Records

 If this is the case I would suspect that everyone on this forum is a shill....

 Lets keep it real_

 

The examples you gave would not require you to be labeled as a MOT because you do not have an ongoing working relationship with any of these manufacturers. 
 Now if Ray had said he would "knock off" some money for purchases every time you sent some business his way,.. that would be a different matter.


----------



## scompton

Getting a discount for multiple purchases, group buys, combined shipping discounts, etc., are different from a company setting one particular person up to get credits for getting someone to make a purchase. Those are commissions, no matter how much someone wants to spin it otherwise. I even consider them commissions when anyone who does a referral gets them. And there is nothing wrong with running a business that way. 

 I agree with Grizzlepaw that giving credit for referrals means that the person believes in the product. But it is still a commission. 

 IMO people who are getting commissions of any type, in an ongoing relationship, ie not one time only, are MOTs.


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Grizzlepaw* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_let me spell out the difference for you._

 

I'm going to respectfully offer a little blunt advice. Keep out of this. Your opinion as to what is ethical and what isn't is totally irrelevant because you are directly involved here. Your company has shot itself in the foot a hundred different times in this thread already. We've all read the posts. You'd be wise to keep your comments on this to yourself. It's astounding that you think you still have something to say here. How deep do you want to dig the hole?

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *883dave* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Last time I purchased an amp from RSA, I mentioned I would be looking at purchasing one for my son in law in the near future._

 

If you are suggesting someone else spend their own money on a product, and you benefit materially from the sale, either through cash or credit, you are operating on a commission basis. If you are receiving a discount on your own order, and no one else's money is involved, you are the consumer, not the salesman.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## Grizzlepaw

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm going to respectfully offer a little blunt advice. Keep out of this. Your opinion as to what is ethical and what isn't is totally irrelevant because you are directly involved here. Your company has shot itself in the foot a hundred different times in this thread already. We've all read the posts. You'd be wise to keep your comments on this to yourself. It's astounding that you think you still have something to say here. How deep do you want to dig the hole?

 See ya
 Steve_

 

I dunno. Do you remember how deep we buried the natural gas line?

 Or am I misunderstanding the situation here? I must have mislaid the manila envelopes that we put our cash payouts in, because I can't seem to find them right at the moment.


----------



## Wolffy

NT


----------



## monolith

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Wolffy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_NT_

 

In response to your subject line, I have to say that this has been one of the more useful threads I've ever read here.


----------



## sydneyaudio

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If you are suggesting someone else spend their own money on a product, and you benefit materially from the sale, either through cash or credit, you are operating on a commission basis. If you are receiving a discount on your own order, and no one else's money is involved, you are the consumer, not the salesman.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

Wow! Trying to catch up on what is happening in this thread - way too much to read!!

 Since the ethical behaviour of members in this forum have been questioned and some labelled "shills" I feel compelled to add my 2 cents by asking a question of bigshot. I do so in the interests of fairness to members where their integrity has been challenged.

 Steve, on this very forum, in a thread discussing the value of historical classical recordings, you championed their value and provided links to a site selling them. You did not mention you were the owner of this site, and presumably make money from sales there, until it was picked up by another member.
 How is your behaviour different from what is happening here?


----------



## Febs

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Grizzlepaw* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Mechanical dampening in the power three, and all our cables, makes a clear difference._

 

How many times is Virtual Dynamics going to be permitted to violate the Terms of Service? Like this one:

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Terms of Service* 
_A Member of the Trade may not review (or make any subjective assessments of) his or her services and/or products he or she manufacturers, represents, sells._


----------



## monolith

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sydneyaudio* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Steve, on this very forum, in a thread discussing the value of historical classical recordings, you championed their value and provided links to a site selling them. You did not mention you were the owner of this site, and presumably make money from sales there, until it was picked up by another member.
 How is your behaviour different from what is happening here? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Can you provide a link to that post? I'd be interested in seeing what that site has to sell.


----------



## Febs

Presumably, sydneyaudio is referring to this thread:

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f9/wha...rdings-208195/

 Though if that is the thread he is referring to, his statement, "You did not mention you were the owner of this site ... until it was picked up by another member" is inaccurate. Bunnyears comments in post 73 of that thread that BigShot's remarks regarding certain historic recordings are biased because BigShot is selling those recordings, but it was quite clear from the earlier posts in the thread (including BigShot's own posts) that the site is BigShot's site. For example, in posts 24 and 68, BigShot discussed the process he used to capture some of those recordings.


----------



## sydneyaudio

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Febs* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Presumably, sydneyaudio is referring to this thread:

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f9/wha...rdings-208195/

 Though if that is the thread he is referring to, his statement, "You did not mention you were the owner of this site ... until it was picked up by another member" is inaccurate. Bunnyears comments in post 73 of that thread that BigShot's remarks regarding certain historic recordings are biased because BigShot is selling those recordings, but it was quite clear from the earlier posts in the thread (including BigShot's own posts) that the site is BigShot's site. For example, in posts 24 and 68, BigShot discussed the process he used to capture some of those recordings._

 

Yes, thats the one - was going from memory as the "discovery" that bigshot was selling these items struck me at the time after following the thread. I thought bunnyears was surprised to find out he was selling these items when she made her post - but we are both making assumptions about what she did or did not mean.... 

 Anyway, interesting you dug up specific references to explain his behaviour. At the time, after bunny's post, I though his previous links were pure marketing to promote his products.

 With the benefit of hindsight and looking through some of his posts again, perhaps he just strongly believes in his passion for historical recordings, and wanted to share his ideas/experience with others? I am happy to give him the benefit of the doubt. The only reason I bought this up is seeing how others on this thread have been treated - perhaps having similar intentions. And in terms of full disclosure, bigshot has posted in many threads since about various historical music and I am confident most other members of the forum do not realise he sells these items....


----------



## monolith

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Febs* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Presumably, sydneyaudio is referring to this thread:

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f9/wha...rdings-208195/

 Though if that is the thread he is referring to, his statement, "You did not mention you were the owner of this site ... until it was picked up by another member" is inaccurate. Bunnyears comments in post 73 of that thread that BigShot's remarks regarding certain historic recordings are biased because BigShot is selling those recordings, but it was quite clear from the earlier posts in the thread (including BigShot's own posts) that the site is BigShot's site. For example, in posts 24 and 68, BigShot discussed the process he used to capture some of those recordings._

 

Excellent, thank you. I'll probably be picking up a couple of those CDs at some point.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

I've been lurking for the past 652 posts, but I feel the need to chime in. I don't think IpodJ did anything wrong, and this is being blown way out of proportion. He explained what happened, so let it go. It's a witch hunt, as far as I can see.


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sydneyaudio* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Steve, on this very forum, in a thread discussing the value of historical classical recordings, you championed their value and provided links to a site selling them. You did not mention you were the owner of this site, and presumably make money from sales there, until it was picked up by another member. How is your behaviour different from what is happening here? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I've discussed my work in production here in the context of illustrating issues related to audio restoration techniques and technical matters. I've certainly never made it a secret that I've produced various TV projects, rock videos, CDs, etc. But I have no interest in marketing. I just produce the stuff. Since HeadFi is aimed at hardware, not software, and no one has objected before, I didn't even think of it. I freely admit that I love music and enjoy discussing it. If you really feel that I need to put some sort of mention of the fact that I'm a producer, I'd be happy to do that.

 By the way, I just looked at that thread you mentioned. I didn't even mention my site, or link to it. I direct linked to mp3s to show people the sorts of performances that are unique to historical recordings. That isn't at all the same as what happened here. I think iPodPJ honestly didn't realize what he was doing. I think VD knows exactly what they're doing.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## Riboge

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've been lurking for the past 652 posts, but I feel the need to chime in. I don't think IpodJ did anything wrong, and this is being blown way out of proportion. He explained what happened, so let it go. It's a witch hunt, as far as I can see._

 

x2...disingenuous and hypocritical as well.


----------



## JohnFerrier

Steve,

 Thanks for adding real content to the internet... Wow! I wonder if your Chihuahua is named Little Shot.




 (Don't see any cables to chew on...)

 Take care.


----------



## Grizzlepaw

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've discussed my work in production here in the context of illustrating issues related to audio restoration techniques and technical matters. I've certainly never made it a secret that I've produced various TV projects, rock videos, CDs, etc. But I have no interest in marketing. I just produce the stuff. Since HeadFi is aimed at hardware, not software, and no one has objected before, I didn't even think of it. I freely admit that I love music and enjoy discussing it. If you really feel that I need to put some sort of mention of the fact that I'm a producer, I'd be happy to do that.

 By the way, I just looked at that thread you mentioned. I didn't even mention my site, or link to it. I direct linked to mp3s to show people the sorts of performances that are unique to historical recordings. That isn't at all the same as what happened here. I think iPodPJ honestly didn't realize what he was doing. I think VD knows exactly what they're doing.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

I think if you ever had a chance to spend a day meeting us here in Canada you would find us far less objectionable than you seem to feel we are.

 I'm not sure who you think I am, or exactly what you think I'm doing, but I can tell you. I am working to support a product that I truly do feel makes a difference, and sometimes I do a poor job. I don't have any training or experience in marketing prior to this job.

 We make ends meet here at VD, but it does cost us a lot to bring these products to market. We are open about what we make and how we make it, we are accessible to call and talk to, and we try to take accountability for our mistakes and errors in judgment.

 Who am I? Here's a pic 



 I think that's the end of what I can usefully add.

 -Brad


----------



## JohnFerrier

Bryston manufactures a full line of high-end audio equipment. This is Bryston's advice (bottom half).

 "It is unlikely, to say the least, that a power cord occupying the final six feet of that 50 miles can do anything positive to change the conditions of that power."


----------



## chesebert

Many other Hi-End manufacturers would disagree.


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JohnFerrier* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I wonder if your Chihuahua is named Little Shot._

 

Her name is Li'l Pal. When I was looking for a dog, I was worried about leaving a puppy home all day long. My boss told me I could bring a pup into the office as long as it was a chihuahua. He has a special interest in the breed.

 Whenever I take that suitcase Victrola out, folks look all around for the power cable. They can't believe an acoustic instrument can be so LOUD.

 No hard feelings, Brad. You just have to understand that an internet discussion forum is a community. When people aren't on the up and up about the reasons why they say what they say, it causes distrust. Advertising is cool. It should just be clear that it's advertising.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## Uncle Erik

Grizzlepaw, if Virtual Dynamics is open and accessible, would you please explain how your commission and sales positions are structured? What qualifies someone to receive a commission? How are they earned? Does Virtual Dynamics have any other Head-Fi members on payroll or commission?

 If another member with a financial interest in Virtual Dynamics comes out of the woodwork, it will not look good.


----------



## SamNOISE

.
 This would be an excellent opportunity for the owner of Virtual Dynamics to step up and demonstrate to potential customers that *he* can in fact discern audible differences between his very best cables and a basic computer power cable, the likes of which is powering your home PC at this moment.

 I for one would be willing to travel into Calgary to assist with such an audition. I suggest that it would go something like this:

 The owner picks (and supplies), the stereo components / cables / favourite music / listening room and time. I or others - attend onsite and set up the listening session as such:

 Stereo system – minus the speakers – is set up in an adjacent room with a closable door between the stereo setup room and the room where the loudspeakers are setup. We run a length of (owner’s choice) brand speaker cables from the ‘stereo-setup room', under the door, into the listening room where the owner will sit to audition the cables. After the initial setup is complete, and before the session begins, the stereo is turned on and left playing music to 'warm-up' for an hour.

 Owner sits in the auditioning room with his choice of chair / room / speaker layout.

 Stereo operator stays in the adjacent room with the stereo system setup and plays selection(s) of music as pre-determined by owner – in whatever order / at whatever volume as previously directed by him. This can be changed at any time by request from owner.

 Stereo operator has two cables in hand; one is the _top of the line _cable from Virtual Dynamics. The other is a generic computer cable the likes of which comes ‘free’ (so to speak), with every home PC sold in North America over the past decade.

 Stereo operator [opens] the door between the two rooms and plugs in the computer power cable to which ever component he is directed to by owner. Stereo operator openly identifies it as being the computer power cable and allows the owner to ‘listen to it’ as long as he wishes. When the owner is satisfied, the stereo operator swaps it with the high-end power cable and again, follows through with the procedure as above. This process of open identification can go on as long as the owner wishes – until he is comfortable.

 Following this – the door is closed and the stereo operator is free to swap the cables back and forth between songs. Cables would be swapped according to a simple coin toss; heads for the generic cable / tales for the high-end cable. The stereo operator keeps notes on which cable was in play throughout the session. The owner also notes which cable he discerned was in play for any given song. The owner is allowed to ask for repeats as often and as long as requested. The session is set to last one hour – which should be enough time for the enjoyment of (at least), 10 tracks. If the owner feels he knows which cable is in play at any time before the one hour session has finished, he may open the door and call off the session.

 This is really quite elementary as far as evaluations go – and again, I would be happy to travel the nearly 500 Km to Calgary in order to attend such a listening session; it’d be educational as well as allowing me to visit friends while there.

 Andrew D.
Canadian Audio Video

.


----------



## chesebert

I can measure and hear couple more dB using sound meter in the 30hz range when I switched from Volex to VD David with my Ayre amp running test tones; granted going from Power 1 to David differences were not that obvious. 

 My wife can tell the difference between BJC LC1 and the cheapest VD RCA cable; with VD RCA music sounds real and instruments come alive. The difference was too obvious for me..but was surprised it was obvious for her as well.


----------



## The Monkey

Samnoise, it is an interesting idea and maybe a fun exercise, but a n of 1 with single blinding would not do much in the end to satisfy either side. However, if you power it adequately, add a proper control (I guess it would have to be an active control, so blinding may still be a problem), and place a device that randomly switches the cable (manley skipjack?), then you've got something. Does anyone know of a clinical protocol that has been developed for this type of thing?


----------



## SamNOISE

Quote:


 Samnoise, it is an interesting idea and maybe a fun exercise, but a n of 1 with single blinding would not do much in the end to satisfy either side. However, if you power it adequately, add a proper control (I guess it would have to be an active control, so blinding may still be a problem), and place a device that randomly switches the cable (manley skipjack?), then you've got something. Does anyone know of a clinical protocol that has been developed for this type of thing? 
 


 I see your point of view – however – if one were to introduce third-party control devices you can be damned sure that it’ll be pointed to as the reason for indefinite results.

 In fact: there should be no reason that an individual who lovingly hand-builds a specialized device (in this case, a power-cable), believes in it fully, markets it as an improvement over ‘standard / generic’ devices (in this case, also power cables), should not be able to pick it out when directly compared. I’ve offered the owner every possible benefit: his choice of listening environment / music / timing – full control in fact, of every variable with the exception of visual clues.

 If one were to judge the ‘big question about cables’ by the words of every individual who comments on the wonders of high-end power cables – then the audible differences should be blatantly obvious. With regards to the methodology; I feel that single-blind is sufficient given the isolation suggested and the random nature of a coin-toss. I suppose one could also employ a laptop and a ‘virtual coin-toss’ software script in order to remove any potential ‘coin-flipping-bias’…

 Andrew D.
Canadian Audio Video


----------



## Grizzlepaw

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Uncle Erik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Grizzlepaw, if Virtual Dynamics is open and accessible, would you please explain how your commission and sales positions are structured?_

 

Commission is available to Matt, and Sherry on direct sales to customers. Our sales manager Omer earns commission based on a team bonus and overall sales. Sometimes bonus programs are put in place for the entire staff reaching a certain sales goal, in order to compensate the production department for reaching a certain level of output. Any new salesperson would be eligible for commission starting in his/her second month with us.

 Our sales positions are very loosely structured. Our sales people focus on answering questions and developing relationships with the clients that call and email us. They are also responsible for auctioning off trade-ins, developing sales strategies and giving feedback to marketing (me.)

  Quote:


 What qualifies someone to receive a commission? How are they earned? 
 

Sales team members earn commissions on direct sales, and sometimes on team bonuses. The sales manager earns based on total company sales performance.

  Quote:


 Does Virtual Dynamics have any other Head-Fi members on payroll or commission? 
 

There's me, and there's draudio... there used to be acoustic chef, but he got banned (or re-banned rather,  and there may have been other salesmen on here before I started working for the company that I am unaware of. Currently its just me and Rick (draudio). It is only people who work in this building receives commissions.

 Now if you want to talk about discounts, yeah, we discount a lot. Pretty much everything but the Power Three has the margin for a good deal of discount.

  Quote:


 If another member with a financial interest in Virtual Dynamics comes out of the woodwork, it will not look good. 
 

Well, that can't happen because there is only me and Draudio, but our customers do have an interest in us staying in business, because they feel we make an excellent product, and oftentimes they yell pretty loud about it.


----------



## slwiser

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Grizzlepaw* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_........... our *customers *do have an interest in us staying in business, because they feel we make an excellent product, and oftentimes they yell pretty loud about it._

 

Yep, you found me out....guilty as charged.


----------



## furball

SamNOISE,

 Excellent idea! I just would like to add one thing.

 It is known within audio circles that some manufacturers intentionally introduce impurities into their cables or using ultra small gauge wires in certain sections, that serve to alter the electrical conduction of the signal through the cable, thus making their cables "sound" audibly different from ordinary impurity free cables.

 You have to take this factor into consideration when conducting your test. Perhaps by doing some objective measurements of all the cables involved, such as by measuring the conductance, etc. Someone more knowledgeable with EE please chime in.



  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *SamNOISE* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_.
 This would be an excellent opportunity for the owner of Virtual Dynamics to step up and demonstrate to potential customers that *he* can in fact discern audible differences between his very best cables and a basic computer power cable, the likes of which is powering your home PC at this moment._


----------



## VeipaCray

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *SamNOISE* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I see your point of view – however – if one were to introduce third-party control devices you can be damned sure that it’ll be pointed to as the reason for indefinite results.

 In fact: there should be no reason that an individual who lovingly hand-builds a specialized device (in this case, a power-cable), believes in it fully, markets it as an improvement over ‘standard / generic’ devices (in this case, also power cables), should not be able to pick it out when directly compared. I’ve offered the owner every possible benefit: his choice of listening environment / music / timing – full control in fact, of every variable with the exception of visual clues.

 If one were to judge the ‘big question about cables’ by the words of every individual who comments on the wonders of high-end power cables – then the audible differences should be blatantly obvious. With regards to the methodology; I feel that single-blind is sufficient given the isolation suggested and the random nature of a coin-toss. I suppose one could also employ a laptop and a ‘virtual coin-toss’ software script in order to remove any potential ‘coin-flipping-bias’…

 Andrew D.
Canadian Audio Video_

 


 Wouldn't a calibrated mic with RTA software recording what it heard eliminate the human factor. I mean if you had a calibrated mic, hooked up to a real deal RTA that records files as wav files. You could position the mic once and let it do the listening. You could run a program like unix "diff" across the two recorded wav files to see if there in fact was any difference in the files indicating a difference in sound. In this scenario the ONLY thing that would change between tests is the power cable itself. 

 As for the virtual coin toss software... it would use the random number generator of the computer it was running on. There have been many studies showing that RNGs are not really random. Use the mood of your girlfriend or wife tomorrow. THAT is random. Happy = heads, Pissed at you for unknown reason = tails.


----------



## SamNOISE

Furball

 That’s a chance I’d be willing to take! I suggest that it’d be damned difficult to mess with a bit of wire to the extent that it’s design would actually have an audible effect on the output of a stereo component.

 I recently ran a 'blind' post of two lossless .wav files and posted it on several forums. The 'guesses' were around 50/50 and you should have seen the cables! One was cut in several places and taped with cellophane tape, ground in the dirt, had it’s prongs pounded with a hammer and twisted with pliers, left to rust and randomly spliced with thin speaker cable. The cable it was compared to was a very well-built ‘PSAudio Prelude’ power cable. If folks have a difficult time guessing one or the other in that outrageous situation, I suggest that there will be a significant challenge ahead of them in audibly discerning an intact generic computer cable from any well-built 'high-end' cable.

 VeipaCray

 Mic / RTA software results would be challenged over the room acoustics / mic preamp etc… The best solution is still to have the cable’s designer sit down and make decisions on audibility in his own home, with his own stereo, music etc. That way all ‘negative’ variables are eliminated.

 Andrew D.
Canadian Audio Video


----------



## Jam_Master_J

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *chesebert* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I can measure and hear couple more dB using sound meter in the 30hz range when I switched from Volex to VD David with my Ayre amp running test tones_

 

Something is seriously wrong with something here. A cable affecting the 30Hz frequency by "a couple dB". If it were 3dB, one cable would be somehow reducing the 30Hz amplitude by 50%. I wonder if your meter is accurate. Either that or one of those cables is doing something horrible.


----------



## chesebert

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jam_Master_J* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Something is seriously wrong with something here. A cable affecting the 30Hz frequency by "a couple dB". If it were 3dB, one cable would be somehow reducing the 30Hz amplitude by 50%. I wonder if your meter is accurate. Either that or one of those cables is doing something horrible._

 

radioshack digital sound meter. I don't think it was 3dB probably right around 2dB..or not quite 2dB but the increase in bass fullness and deep bass is very audiable with VD Daivd over Volex.


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *SamNOISE* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I suggest that it’d be damned difficult to mess with a bit of wire to the extent that it’s design would actually have an audible effect on the output of a stereo component._

 

Actually, from what I've been told it isn't all that difficult. It would result in a limited response though, which would be easily measured. I'd recommend testing the cables too.

 But you're never going to get a test that means anything to the people you are trying to convince. They aren't interested in test results, no matter how accurate they are.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jam_Master_J* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Something is seriously wrong with something here. A cable affecting the 30Hz frequency by "a couple dB". If it were 3dB, one cable would be somehow reducing the 30Hz amplitude by 50%._

 

That sounds like inverted phase to me.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## furball

All very good ideas guys!


----------



## chesebert

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That sounds like inverted phase to me.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

nope..wrong.


----------



## Budgie

The Radio Shack sound meters have very questionable accuracy at low frequencies.
StereoTimes -- Useful Modifications to the RadioShack Analog SPL Meter

 I don't think it got any better with the new digital readout version.

 That said, one would think the inaccuracy would at least be repeatable.


----------



## Jam_Master_J

I think a better test would be to use an oscilloscope on the speaker output terminals with speakers still connected (this would ensure the amp is acting as it would under load). Then sweep frequencies, or feed it some white noise and take the FFT (frequency domain) capture of the output. If one power cord was affecting the frequency response, it should be visible in this case. 2dB would be quite noticeable too.


----------



## chesebert

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jam_Master_J* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think a better test would be to use an oscilloscope on the speaker output terminals with speakers still connected (this would ensure the amp is acting as it would under load). Then sweep frequencies, or feed it some white noise and take the FFT (frequency domain) capture of the output. If one power cord was affecting the frequency response, it should be visible in this case. 2dB would be quite noticeable too._

 

yes that would be a better test; not a lab test but should be more accurate than than the radioshack sound meter.


----------



## gilency

get a virtual dog


----------



## Pars

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That sounds like inverted phase to me.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *furball* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_All very good ideas guys!_

 

This is a power cable he is talking about... don't think you can invert the phase on single phase AC...


----------



## Wolffy

Quote:


 don't think you can invert the phase on single phase AC... 
 

You are correct in that most of the power is single phase coming out of residential homes. Unless you have commercial or heavy duty equipment that can utilize dual phase.
 Reversing the polarity of a power cord might have a sonic impact depending on the sensitivity of the component.

 Michael


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pars* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This is a power cable he is talking about..._

 

Yow!

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## dvw

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jam_Master_J* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think a better test would be to use an oscilloscope on the speaker output terminals with speakers still connected (this would ensure the amp is acting as it would under load). Then sweep frequencies, or feed it some white noise and take the FFT (frequency domain) capture of the output. If one power cord was affecting the frequency response, it should be visible in this case. 2dB would be quite noticeable too._

 

It would be a much better test. All you need to do is to feed a 30Hz signal. 2dB is about 1.6 difference in amplitude. It would definitely be noticeable.


----------



## UseName

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jam_Master_J* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think a better test would be to use an oscilloscope on the speaker output terminals with speakers still connected (this would ensure the amp is acting as it would under load). Then sweep frequencies, or feed it some white noise and take the FFT (frequency domain) capture of the output. If one power cord was affecting the frequency response, it should be visible in this case. 2dB would be quite noticeable too._

 

Why not just test the power cord on the PSU? A PSU will convert the AC power to DC. Why not just measure the effect of changing power cords with the PSU DC output. If you get pure DC output with both cables, it stands to reason that power cords make no difference.


----------



## Maniac

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *UseName* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Why not just test the power cord on the PSU? A PSU will convert the AC power to DC. Why not just measure the effect of changing power cords with the PSU DC output. If you get pure DC output with both cables, it stands to reason that power cords make no difference._

 

If that route is going to be taken then, it begs the question of how and what to test on a PSU. IIRC, there's a whole pile of tests that can be done on PSUs, and I don't think they are any less complicated than testing audio stuff.


----------



## UseName

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Maniac* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If that route is going to be taken then, it begs the question of how and what to test on a PSU. IIRC, there's a whole pile of tests that can be done on PSUs, and I don't think they are any less complicated than testing audio stuff._

 

There are also an infinite number of tests for audio equipment as you have an infinite range of frequencies. As well, you have more equipment in the system. 

 All I want to see is if the output from the PSU stays the same. It is DC power, so if there is any noise that gets eliminated or added with either cord, you have a base for saying power cords can make a difference. 

 If the PSU works ideally and is stable for both cables (as it theoretically should), there are a lot of people on this site that can save quite a bit of money. 

 This is way more reliable than testing audio equipment because there are fewer components that could add error. When performing tests, it's important to eliminate as many variables as possible to promote accurate results. It would also help us determine exactly what is happening. 

 For example, perhaps a PSU is letting a certain frequency through that is eliminated with the use of an expensive power cord. It would likely be cheaper to simply add a filter to correct this problem then spending thousands on wire.


----------



## Maniac

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *UseName* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There are also an infinite number of tests for audio equipment as you have an infinite range of frequencies. As well, you have more equipment in the system. 

 All I want to see is if the output from the PSU stays the same. It is DC power, so if there is any noise that gets eliminated or added with either cord, you have a base for saying power cords can make a difference. 

 If the PSU works ideally and is stable for both cables (as it theoretically should), there are a lot of people on this site that can save quite a bit of money. 

 This is way more reliable than testing audio equipment because there are fewer components that could add error. When performing tests, it's important to eliminate as many variables as possible to promote accurate results. It would also help us determine exactly what is happening. 

 For example, perhaps a PSU is letting a certain frequency through that is eliminated with the use of an expensive power cord. It would likely be cheaper to simply add a filter to correct this problem then spending thousands on wire._

 


 There's also an almost infinite amount of condition and load situation that you can put a PSU through. Are you going to measure it at idle? at 50% load? at 100% load? at 120% in short bursts? or are you going to load it with a load that changes all the time very rapidly?

 IMHO it isn't really making it simpler, it is just as complicated and the result may not directly referencing to what would be happening when you hook it onto audio equipments. Not to mention that noise is not the only measure of performance for audio equipments.

 But personally speaking, I'd say that noises in the recording is what really annoying me. I once heard that 120Hz buzzing in a commercially released CD that just totally p*ssed me off. Power cable may help, but not to a dramatic degree of a bad recording vs good recording. However, a rather polluting switching power can come close if it is plugged into the wrong spot. I have used a few very nice sounding switching PSU on my own DIY projects, they sound clean, fast and very transparent... but they will make other equipments sound muddy and artificial if they share an AC outlet or are wired too closely...


----------



## UseName

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Maniac* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There's also an almost infinite amount of condition and load situation that you can put a PSU through. Are you going to measure it at idle? at 50% load? at 100% load? at 120% in short bursts? or are you going to load it with a load that changes all the time very rapidly?

 IMHO it isn't really making it simpler, it is just as complicated and the result may not directly referencing to what would be happening when you hook it onto audio equipments. Not to mention that noise is not the only measure of performance for audio equipments.

 But personally speaking, I'd say that noises in the recording is what really annoying me. I once heard that 120Hz buzzing in a commercially released CD that just totally p*ssed me off. Power cable may help, but not to a dramatic degree of a bad recording vs good recording. However, a rather polluting switching power can come close if it is plugged into the wrong spot. I have used a few very nice sounding switching PSU on my own DIY projects, they sound clean, fast and very transparent... but they will make other equipments sound muddy and artificial if they share an AC outlet or are wired too closely..._

 

I thought it was clear that my noise example was only an example... obviously it is not the only issue.... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The point that I am trying to make is that any improvement found by a 'magic' power cord could likely be done cheaper on the PSU. If your PSU is very very good, the cord should not matter at all as long as it is proper gauge.


----------



## Maniac

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *UseName* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I thought it was clear that my noise example was only an example... obviously it is not the only issue.... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The point that I am trying to make is that any improvement found by a 'magic' power cord could likely be done cheaper on the PSU. If your PSU is very very good, the cord should not matter at all as long as it is proper gauge._

 


 Well, in theory true, and like I said before, what are you going to test? There are just as many things that can be tested on PSU as in audio. How do you determine what's going to affect the resulting sound? Number don't really mean much if it didn't reflect what's being heard.


 For example would be my CD Player, a Sony CDP-X5000. It have some of the best power supply setup that I've ever seen stuffed into such a small case. Large snap-in caps (looks like custom Silmic from Elna) and all kind of regulator circuit. there are even some OP controlled regulators in there as well.


 But guess what? It is also one of the more sensitive equipments in my setup to different power cords, even tho I'm only using its digital output only.


 I have no idea why it's affected like that, and it goes against all the electrical/electronics knowledge I have learned so far. However, it is always fun to find out stuff like that tho.


----------



## UseName

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Maniac* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well, in theory true, and like I said before, what are you going to test? There are just as many things that can be tested on PSU as in audio. How do you determine what's going to affect the resulting sound? Number don't really mean much if it didn't reflect what's being heard.


 For example would be my CD Player, a Sony CDP-X5000. It have some of the best power supply setup that I've ever seen stuffed into such a small case. Large snap-in caps (looks like custom Silmic from Elna) and all kind of regulator circuit. there are even some OP controlled regulators in there as well.


 But guess what? It is also one of the more sensitive equipments in my setup to different power cords, even tho I'm only using its digital output only.


 I have no idea why it's affected like that, and it goes against all the electrical/electronics knowledge I have learned so far. However, it is always fun to find out stuff like that tho._

 

The problem is, you say the cord makes a difference, you hear the difference... fine. But to anyone that doesn't hear the difference, and has any experience with electronics, you have to appretiate how rediculous such a claim sounds. 

 It's like hearing about an amazing magic trick. If I told you I saw a guy on the street levitate and there was NO WAY it was just an illusion, would you say, "wow, that is amazing" and believe me? or would you ask questions and maybe even tell me how impossible it is? 

 This might not be the most perfect analogy, but it does help illustrate the view of a skeptic. Unfortunately, most believers on this site are intollerant of the skeptic veiwpoint (at least that is what I have seen), so when they ask for proof or reasons behind the magic, nobody is willing to help them. At least you are willing to admit it goes against your electrical knowledge.


----------



## Maniac

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *UseName* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The problem is, you say the cord makes a difference, you hear the difference... fine. But to anyone that doesn't hear the difference, and has any experience with electronics, you have to appretiate how rediculous such a claim sounds. 

 It's like hearing about an amazing magic trick. If I told you I saw a guy on the street levitate and there was NO WAY it was just an illusion, would you say, "wow, that is amazing" and believe me? or would you ask questions and maybe even tell me how impossible it is? 

 This might not be the most perfect analogy, but it does help illustrate the view of a skeptic. Unfortunately, most believers on this site are intollerant of the skeptic veiwpoint (at least that is what I have seen), so when they ask for proof or reasons behind the magic, nobody is willing to help them. At least you are willing to admit it goes against your electrical knowledge. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Well, the very simple way is to test them yourself. I've personally seen so many things in audio that goes against my electrical knowledge, and then so many little things that goes kinda in between.


 The problem with magicians and street performers is that you can't get them home and probe and poke them all day long, at least not legally anyways. While with most cables you can, and if you do not damage the cables while probing and poking them, some even offers money back guarantees to take it back if you don't like it.


----------



## JustPhilbo

Imagine that, a MOT, that sells power cables, doesn't think testing can show the benefit of power cables. 

 I *almost* believe that ICs and speaker cables can affect sound. I can not understand any way that a power cable could do so, unless the downstream transformer and power supply were defective or under-engineered.

 I am an IT architect for a large company with millions of dollars of computers, storage and network equipment that run with standard IEC power cables that the manufacturers supply as $0 line items. These free power cables sure seem to do what they are supposed to do, which is to transmit AC power to the load.

 So, would one of these special power cables make a server run better?


----------



## Maniac

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JustPhilbo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Imagine that, a MOT, that sells power cables, doesn't think testing can show the benefit of power cables. 

 I *almost* believe that ICs and speaker cables can affect sound. I can not understand any way that a power cable could do so, unless the downstream transformer and power supply were defective or under-engineered.

 I am an IT architect for a large company with millions of dollars of computers, storage and network equipment that run with standard IEC power cables that the manufacturers supply as $0 line items. These free power cables sure seem to do what they are supposed to do, which is to transmit AC power to the load.

 So, would one of these special power cables make a server run better?_

 

Testing may and may not show, it pretty much depend on how you test them. What I'm saying is that trying to simplify it by measuring a PSU connected to a said power supply would not be simplifying it at all, but opening another can of worms with results that is most likely unrelated to the actual performance of the cable on audio equipments.

 IMHO the simplest way to test it is simply use it is use it in your stereo setup and see. IMO, consider yourself lucky if you can hear no differences, since you won't be spending all the money on cables like those who can hear a difference.


----------



## UseName

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Maniac* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Testing may and may not show, it pretty much depend on how you test them. What I'm saying is that trying to simplify it by measuring a PSU connected to a said power supply would not be simplifying it at all, but opening another can of worms with results that is most likely unrelated to the actual performance of the cable on audio equipments.

 IMHO the simplest way to test it is simply use it is use it in your stereo setup and see. IMO, consider yourself lucky if you can hear no differences, since you won't be spending all the money on cables like those who can hear a difference._

 

If they do make a difference, the first thing I would check is the power supply. I'm not satified simply knowing that it makes a difference, I like to know why. That is why I made the suggestion and it is only a suggestion. 

 I also made the suggestion to bring the attention back to the actual purpose of the power cord. Most people look at electronics like they are a magical device and don't have the first clue how they work. On this site, I think most people have an above average understanding, however, there are still parts that people seem to gloss over. Power cords seem to be one of these parts. 

 The purpose of a power cord is to deliver AC power to the PSU. That is it. If two cords sound different the PSU output is different in some way 100% of the time, no question about it. If you can prove that a power cord can affect a PSU first, then answer the question what it changes, you will then be able find better ways of fixing the problem without resorting to cryogenic freezing, rare earth magnets or magic dust. 

 I do agree that using it in your own setup is the most simply way, but it isn't the most accurate, it won't end the debate. If you aren't interested in testing in this manor, that is fine. But, because of the reasons above, I think it is a valid and extremely useful thing to test. 

 I mean, imagine how easy it would be to prove that they make a difference if you hook up 2 different cords and find out they cause the PSU to produce a different voltage? Nobody would be able to say you didn't DBT properly, or anything like that because you could easily repeat it and don't need to worry about sample size, variance, or any statistics. 

 I highly doubt it would be that easy, but that doesn't mean people can't start looking at it from this angle. Please don't dismiss my idea.


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Maniac* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well, the very simple way is to test them yourself. I've personally seen so many things in audio that goes against my electrical knowledge_

 

Whenever I run into that sort of situation, it usually turns out that my electrical knowledge is deficient, and I'm not actually witnessing an unnatural freak of nature. That's always a good opportunity to learn something new to add to my bag of tricks.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## Maniac

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *UseName* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If they do make a difference, the first thing I would check is the power supply. I'm not satified simply knowing that it makes a difference, I like to know why. That is why I made the suggestion and it is only a suggestion. 

 I also made the suggestion to bring the attention back to the actual purpose of the power cord. Most people look at electronics like they are a magical device and don't have the first clue how they work. On this site, I think most people have an above average understanding, however, there are still parts that people seem to gloss over. Power cords seem to be one of these parts. 

 The purpose of a power cord is to deliver AC power to the PSU. That is it. If two cords sound different the PSU output is different in some way 100% of the time, no question about it. If you can prove that a power cord can affect a PSU first, then answer the question what it changes, you will then be able find better ways of fixing the problem without resorting to cryogenic freezing, rare earth magnets or magic dust. 

 I do agree that using it in your own setup is the most simply way, but it isn't the most accurate, it won't end the debate. If you aren't interested in testing in this manor, that is fine. But, because of the reasons above, I think it is a valid and extremely useful thing to test. 

 I mean, imagine how easy it would be to prove that they make a difference if you hook up 2 different cords and find out they cause the PSU to produce a different voltage? Nobody would be able to say you didn't DBT properly, or anything like that because you could easily repeat it and don't need to worry about sample size, variance, or any statistics. 

 I highly doubt it would be that easy, but that doesn't mean people can't start looking at it from this angle. Please don't dismiss my idea._

 



 I'm not really dismissing your idea, but I'm feeling that it would be even more difficult to match the numbers there than testing it on audio equipments.

 I really don't agree with the accurate part of your post, IMHO accuracy in this regard is depending on the user of the actual equipment, ie whoever bought it and use it at home.

 If you are going to test power cables on PSUs, do let everyone know how you are going to go about it, since the setup alone would be rather interesting and complicated. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'd love to know how it turns out, even tho I don't think the result is going to reflect actual effect on stereo very easily.


----------



## Maniac

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Whenever I run into that sort of situation, it usually turns out that my electrical knowledge is deficient, and I'm not actually witnessing an unnatural freak of nature. That's always a good opportunity to learn something new to add to my bag of tricks.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

Indeed, there's often new things to learn when those things happens. I've personally learned quite a bit because of that. Tho there are still quite a lot that are not easily explained or solved.


----------



## SamNOISE

Well, it’s been a few weeks now since I public ally asked the owner of the cable company in question if he would take me up on my offer to set up an unsighted audition at his home, under his terms – so I guess it’s on to ‘Option 2’.

 ‘O2’ goes about the issue quite a bit differently: I’ve looked at the various ways that we could all share in the ‘auditioning’ of products online. My trials and errors have found me working with an unlikely partner: a fellow who goes by the handle ‘Elk’ on (of all places), the Stereophile forum. Elk is a ‘cable-believer’, but one with an open mind to logical experimentation. He is working with me on a process where we put together a decent group of equipment and simply record a passage of high-resolution music from a CD player to a quality recording device, while said devices are plugged into the wall with standard ‘computer’ power cables. After we create a high-quality / lossless music file, we then swap cords and re-do the recording. We present both resultant recordings as downloadable, lossless digital files that you can D/L and audition in many ways:

 On the PC with headphones
 On the PC with headphones and an outboard headphone amplifier
 On the PC with the headphone stage of your favourite DAC / headphone amplifier
 On the PC hooked up to a large stereo system / through a DAC (or not)
 On the stereo system by burning files to CD and playing the CD on random shuffle

 …I’m sure you can think of several other possible scenarios

 I’ve taken several stabs at this process, as those who read my www site will attest to, and realize that my methods / equipment don’t represent absolute state-of-the-art. However, Elk appears to have access to better equipment than me - and so I strongly suspect - do many of you. What I’m asking is this: will at least some of you folks with absolutely ‘over-the-top’ audiophile equipment please step up and create a couple of high-resolution / high-quality lossless .wav files (or whatever your favourite lossless file format is), swapping cables as mentioned above. I’ll offer to host these files on my server, obviously free of charge.

 If enough folks do this, with enough types of hardware, we’ll be able to get past the “but it works on my equipment combination” excuse and get on with a meaningful dialogue - one that we can all share in - not one that simply involves folks making blanket statements without any fundamental facts / framework within which to frame them.


----------



## tomjtx

SamNOISE;4105083 said:
			
		

> Well, it’s been a few weeks now since I public ally asked the owner of the cable company in question if he would take me up on my offer to set up an unsighted audition at his home, under his terms – so I guess it’s on to ‘Option 2’.
> 
> ‘O2’ goes about the issue quite a bit differently: I’ve looked at the various ways that we could all share in the ‘auditioning’ of products online. My trials and errors have found me working with an unlikely partner: a fellow who goes by the handle ‘Elk’ on (of all places), the Stereophile forum. Elk is a ‘cable-believer’, but one with an open mind to logical experimentation. He is working with me on a process where we put together a decent group of equipment and simply record a passage of high-resolution music from a CD player to a quality recording device, while said devices are plugged into the wall with standard ‘computer’ power cables. After we create a high-quality / lossless music file, we then swap cords and re-do the recording. We present both resultant recordings as downloadable, lossless digital files that you can D/L and audition in many ways:
> 
> ...


----------



## bigshot

The problems that affect "over the top" stereo systems are the exact same problems that affect midrange ones. Expensive stereos don't suddenly reveal night and day differences. You can be as logical as you want and cross every t and dot ever i, and it won't make a lick of difference. As you've found out, some people just don't want to know the truth. Do your testing to find out for yourself and use that to make your own system better. Those that throw money at problems will continue to throw money at problems. Your stereo will actually sound good, and you won't have to delude yourself into believing that, because you did the comparisons.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## SamNOISE

Quote:


 some people just don't want to know the truth 
 

Ya, I Know I just wish that one, just one one - power cable mfg. living in Western Canada would invite me in for an unsighted evaluation as detailed earlier.

 If I was the manufacturer of a product which was as controversial as power cables, and I had the opportunity to prove to a non-believer that my products were not snake-oil, I would jump at the chance!

 Heck, imagine the free publicity...


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *SamNOISE* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If I was the manufacturer of a product which was as controversial as power cables, and I had the opportunity to prove to a non-believer that my products were not snake-oil, I would jump at the chance!_

 

What if you were the manufacturer of snake oil?

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## Akathisia

700 + posts!


----------



## AudioCats

might as well contribute one more post to this cat thread.


----------



## SamNOISE

BigShot:

 Nice call...

 Andrew D.


----------



## JohnFerrier

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Grizzlepaw* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Interestingly enough I have the preliminary results of a DBT of our interconnects in my email inbox. We won't be presenting them until the middle of May (once the paper is finished) but it shows a definite correlation between the dynamic filtering and SOL (magnet) technologies and an increase in slew rate.

 I realize that just having my word on it isn't gonna be good anough for anyone, it wouldn't be good enough for me... Which is why we are putting in the money and time to have them tested by a third party (which doesn't mean we are paying to have them tested... the testing is being done for free, the money is the investment of materials, shipping, plane tickets to go down and film the results, ect.) 

 So yeah, if that is really all it is gonna take Bigshot, then I expect a sales order from you to be crossing Rita's desk within 3 months or so... assuming that you aren't misrepresenting your position. There does remain the possibility, however, that you aren't actually interested in improving your sound and your components, but intellectually invested in stroking your ego on this board. I'm going to be generous and assume you actually meant what you said... 

 Additionally, when you talk about our markups, do you want us to increase the price? Because if we were to bring our cables in line with other products in our industry we would have to double our current listed retail, at a minimum. Production cost is something we are trying quite hard to reduce, but getting the cables built in China just doesn't seem like a viable idea for us.

 The best way for us to bring production costs, and therefore the price to our end user, down at this point is for us to increase our volume, which means increasing market share. We're working on that.

 -Brad

 PS. The results will be out sometime after May 5th._

 

Is there news?


----------



## velogreg

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JohnFerrier* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is there news?_

 

Well? The gauntlet has been served, any takers guys? No name calling or rudeness, just plain facts please.


----------



## jdouglas

Ah, reading this thread brought a smile 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I once came home, to find my cat had dug his way thru the woofer on my Thiel CS2, and pulled the stuffing material out. I also had to have the thing taken apart to repair it, and unfortunately I found out it was *not* made of cheap bits, but instead very rare, expensive Dynaudio D28 AF tweeter and Vifa woofer 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 As luck would have it, my shipper destroyed the speaker when I moved, and I got reimbursed the full value. My cat is also much happier with his new scratching post than my speakers


----------



## I-Love-Music

I have a dog, sort of big one. Hope there won't be one day I come home and see he's biting on my phones.


----------



## gz76

I've already been there. Lucky he'd managed to rip the pads off my RS-1s, and was busy tearing them up into a million little bits. I'm sure if he'd gone for the driver housings instead, they would have lasted about two seconds!


----------



## Akathisia

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gz76* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've already been there. Lucky he'd managed to rip the pads off my RS-1s, and was busy tearing them up into a million little bits. I'm sure if he'd gone for the driver housings instead, they would have lasted about two seconds!_

 

This is the exact reason my headphones are put away and not hung on a stand. We've all seen what my cat can do.

 I went on vacation a few years back and I left my HD201 plugged into my PC, when we came back the plug was still in the computer and the headphones were on the floor. but the cable was in the bedroom.


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *SamNOISE* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If I was the manufacturer of a product which was as controversial as power cables, and I had the opportunity to prove to a non-believer that my products were not snake-oil, I would jump at the chance!_

 

Well, they tried to do it with me, and let me tell you that they failed miserably, the cable did not make any change in my system at all. Not being satisfied, after that one, I tried a couple more, and the same exact result, so I have no other choice that keep on beleiving the same way...Next!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Guys do you really believe that an article that is worth $250.00, $500.00, $1000.00, or even $100.00 to a company, can be given away in bulk, like they did, just at shipping cost??? Or at 50% off for months??? Not sure, but IMO there is a math that is not very clear here...Capitalism with no profits???


----------



## Snicewicz

Honestly you guys can't be mad. 

 They say all of this on their website under the power 3 cables.

 "The power Three is built upon something simple."

 and they are not joking. This is an enjoyable thread to read...


----------



## markl

.


----------



## JohnFerrier

Don't know if a version of the paper Virtual Dynamics promised finally showed up. Maybe there is a longer version...

  Quote:


 .


----------



## markl

Nah, Al already knows how I feel so I cut it out. I just think if there was an ancillary product to the one I represented that people I trusted felt enhanced what I offered, even if I disagreed with them, I would keep quiet about it. I would have no dog in this fight...


----------



## JohnFerrier

Anyone know anything about the report that Brad/Grizzlepaw/Virtual Dynamics mentioned earlier in this thread?


----------



## mojo

I think we're being a bit hard on cats - without this playful feline we would never have discovered this rip-off!

 People regularly disassemble their amps and headphones, but rarely cables. At least not fully. Has this humble cat started a revolution?


----------



## Know Talent

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mojo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think we're being a bit hard on cats - without this playful feline we would never have discovered this rip-off!

 People regularly disassemble their amps and headphones, but rarely cables. At least not fully. Has this humble cat started a revolution?




_

 

My cat seems intent on the further "unraveling" of this cable mystery!


----------



## mojo

Please just remember to turn the power off at the mains because electricity does not taste nice to cats.


----------



## Grizzlepaw

Zombie thread... Back from the dead!

 We still don't have the full papers back from the U of T, but they did prepare a power point presentation for us as an overview of the testing results which I posted to the website.

Virtual Dynamics - Audiophile Audio Cable

 it's been up there for a while.


----------



## mojo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Grizzlepaw* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Zombie thread... Back from the dead!

 We still don't have the full papers back from the U of T, but they did prepare a power point presentation for us as an overview of the testing results which I posted to the website.

Virtual Dynamics - Audiophile Audio Cable

 it's been up there for a while._

 

I don't see where it says that is from the "U of T" in the powerpoint slides, all it says is it was authored by "Ryan". Who at the U of T did the test?

 Also, the conclusions drawn are a bit strange...

 Slew rates on those scales for audio apps are meaningless. Typical line level output from a CD player or DAC is 3V peek to peek. That means that the "regular" cable could do a full peek-to-peek swing in 0.1us, or 1/10,000,000th of a second, or 10MHz. 10MHz is a bit beyond what most speakers can reproduce. So even if you played that square wave, the extreme possible example, the movement of the speaker cones would be the same with every cable. They just can't move that fast, in fact a tweeter that can go up to 44100Hz is 266 times slower.

 The noise ratings for power cords are very odd as well. The numbers are well above what can normally be measured in a cable. The differences in the measurements (handily expanding by the scale of the graph) are too small to matter, or to put beyond manufacturing variance or error.


----------



## Grizzlepaw

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mojo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Slew rates on those scales for audio apps are meaningless. Typical line level output from a CD player or DAC is 3V peek to peek. That means that the "regular" cable could do a full peek-to-peek swing in 0.1us, or 1/10,000,000th of a second, or 10MHz. 10MHz is a bit beyond what most speakers can reproduce. So even if you played that square wave, the extreme possible example, the movement of the speaker cones would be the same with every cable. They just can't move that fast, in fact a tweeter that can go up to 44100Hz is 266 times slower._

 

We manufacture digital cables as well as analog and for that application it definitely is important to have slew rate as high as possible, as to the rest, you can hear the difference in resolution. It's about reproducing the micro details of the wave, which requires a very high slew rate response. There any improvement is relevant, even at very short timescales.

 If you want to argue audibility, go ahead. You won't get a very good argument going from me because I have heard the difference.

 -Brad


----------



## Febs

Perhaps you could answer the actual question posed by mojo: *Who at the U of T did the test?*


----------



## nick_charles

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Febs* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Perhaps you could answer the actual question posed by mojo: *Who at the U of T did the test?*_

 

My guess would be a group of undergraduate EE students, probably as a term project. 

 Without seeing the complete paper it is difficult to know what to make of it except...

 1) In several slides they mix variables, i.e IC s and power cables in slides 8,9,10 and 11. What for instance was the analog cable when the power cable was changed. What was the power cable for each of the ICs ?

 2) The generic IC is not identified by name or photographed, unless it is the grey one at the bottom of slide 6

 3) Slide 4 contains an unsupported assertion _Faster Response time means better sound quality_, perhaps this is true but a citation is de minimus here.

 4) The presentation has no references whatsoever.

 5) Was the "original" slew rate calculated or measured. This is important since we are dealing with finite rise times.

 6) The DVD.....ADC.......Laptop was single (1 channel )connections ?

 7) Statistical analysis - there is none !, we do not know if these numbers are at all significant, at least a one-way Anova is required. Also the difference between the original wave and the best other slew rate is far ( 0.0105 vs 0.0052) greater that the difference between the worst and best other slew rate. Also the differences in noise levels looks very small was this tested for significance ?. Could this have been random variation ?

 8 The difference between worst(stranded) and best(genesis) peak to peak slew rate on a nominal 2V signal (Slide 10) would be 1.46 microseconds viz 
 78.80 - 77.34 i.e 0.00000146s, I wonder if this is detectable by human ears ?

 9) They did average 5 samples from each combination ?

 10) No scale on the square wave diagrams, a 37hz square wave has a period of 0.027s or 27 milliseconds, you hardly need a microsecond (10 ^ -6) time scale for that

 11) There is no rationale at all for the choices they made or their methodology, why use a 37hz square wave when you could use a higher frequency wave that would be far more challenging to a disc player? Why choose a DVD player and not a CD player ?

 12) As mentioned earlier these noise figures are enormous, what do they mean ? A CD player has a noise floor of -96db (give or take) a -25db noise level added on by a cable looks bizarre and would swamp most low level signals.

 13) Slide 10 - scale misleading, 0.0476 looks very close to 0.02586, the loss between original and "genesis" is 0.02176 , the difference between genesis and worst case is 0.00048 over 200x times worse

 I would be happy to run some stats on the raw data if Virtual Dynamics would like to supply it.

 I hope the final paper fills in the gaps, I look forward to reading it.


----------



## bigshot

Every time this company opens its mouth, it sticks its paw in it.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## Uncle Erik

I'd like to know who performed this study. Was it sponsored by a department or was it just some students? Were the people who performed it compensated in any form?


----------



## bigshot

I think it's hibernation season again.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## Febs

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think it's hibernation season again.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

Grizzlepaw has been online since nick_charles raised those points. He has apparently chosen not to respond.


----------



## JohnFerrier

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Grizzlepaw* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_

 Interestingly enough *I have the preliminary results of a DBT of our interconnects in my email inbox.* We won't be presenting them until the middle of May (once the paper is finished) but it shows a definite correlation between the dynamic filtering and SOL (magnet) technologies and an increase in slew rate.

 I realize that just having my word on it isn't gonna be good anough for anyone, it wouldn't be good enough for me... Which is why we are putting in the money and time to have them tested by a third party (which doesn't mean we are paying to have them tested... the testing is being done for free, the money is the investment of materials, shipping, plane tickets to go down and film the results, ect.) 

 So yeah, if that is really all it is gonna take Bigshot, then I expect a sales order from you to be crossing Rita's desk within 3 months or so... assuming that you aren't misrepresenting your position. There does remain the possibility, however, that you aren't actually interested in improving your sound and your components, but intellectually invested in stroking your ego on this board. I'm going to be generous and assume you actually meant what you said... 

 Additionally, when you talk about our markups, do you want us to increase the price? Because if we were to bring our cables in line with other products in our industry we would have to double our current listed retail, at a minimum. Production cost is something we are trying quite hard to reduce, but getting the cables built in China just doesn't seem like a viable idea for us.

 The best way for us to bring production costs, and therefore the price to our end user, down at this point is for us to increase our volume, which means increasing market share. We're working on that.

 -Brad

 PS. The results will be out sometime after May 5th._

 

.


----------



## nick_charles

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Febs* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Perhaps you could answer the actual question posed by mojo: *Who at the U of T did the test?*_

 

I woder if it could be related to a Walters Forensic Engineering Internship study carried out by a group of U.of T students ...

 Supervisor: Jeff Archbold, M.A.Sc., P.Eng.
 University of Toronto Engineering Students:
 Visnu Siritharan
 Diana Mollicone
 Elnaz Ghasemi
 Fatima Asad

 who did this previous paper
https://www.virtualdynamics.ca/uploa...evised2007.pdf

 A web search has revealed that one of the above 4 students returned to Walters Forensics for a second follow up study in Winter 2007 - 2008.

 This paper (the one above) was editted, it is not the original paper and the original paper is no longer publicly available perhaps VD (or Walters Forensic Engineering) have a copy, perhaps they could post it here for us.

 In any case I had a quick shufty at this paper and I can now see why they chose a 37hz square wave for the second study as the slew rate differences show up better, the differences in slew rates are greater though still small 
 0.0052V/microsecond vs 0.0013V/microsecond. The method is much the same. Thus one might posit that in the strongest music frequency ranges centering in the 300hz to 1000hz range the slew rate diferences would be in the order of 0.004 to 0.005V/microsecond.

 I would like to know was this second study done under the aegis of Walters Forensics ? , if so did Walters Forensics volunteer to do another one pro bono or were they commissioned. 

 The original report states that Walters bought the power cable (unknown to VD) from VD. Presumably VD were then sent a copy of this report which they used in their advertising copy.

 I do not know if it makes a difference but the boutique cable used in the first study was 12 gauge while the generic was 14 gauge, call me old fashioned but this looks like a confounding variable.

 Finally the noise figures are vastly different from the noise figures in the later study ( ~ -41db vs ~ -25db) .

 I have some reservations about the earlier paper, the use of different scales for a side by side comparison is highly misleading, *not that they tell you what the scales are.* They use the word _significantly_ but show now statistical analyses to back this up.


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mojo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think we're being a bit hard on cats - without this playful feline we would never have discovered this rip-off!

 People regularly disassemble their amps and headphones, but rarely cables. At least not fully. Has this humble cat started a revolution?





_

 

Now, ain't that a cute cat. he knows alot about cables too!


----------



## Budgie

Looks to me like the differences attributed to the VD cables are so small as to be insignificant for audio listening. 

 These tests look more like an attempt to justify their claims, instead of proving a real difference.


----------



## nick_charles

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Budgie* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Looks to me like the differences attributed to the VD cables are so small as to be insignificant for audio listening. _

 

This may be true or not. Certainly the differences are small in absolute terms ~ 1.5 microseconds peak to peak rise time, however jitter in the 10s of nanoseconds (10 ^ -9) range *is* audible. The bizarre thing is that blind listening tests would be pretty simple here.

 You would just need one experimenter with a coin and a notebook to set up the cable and adjust levels, this experimenter would not be present during trials and would not communicate settings to the other experimenter who would coral subjects in and out and observe listening tests to take sure nobody peaked. 

 A stereo system including a preamp for level matching, a digital voltmeter, a large towel , a length of vacuum cleaner extension hose, a comfy chair and some subjects.


----------



## JohnFerrier

I don't know, but what kind of jitter resolution are speakers/headphones capable of?


 .


----------



## Know Talent

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JohnFerrier* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't know, but what kind of jitter resolution are speakers/headphones capable of?


 ._

 


 jitter....did someone mention jitter?


----------



## nick_charles

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JohnFerrier* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't know, but what kind of jitter resolution are speakers/headphones capable of?


 ._

 

Speakers/headphones do not resolve jitter as such. What happens is that variations in timing for bits transferred to a DAC creates low level distortion which is audible at some levels, the speakers/headphones only have to react to the decoded audio stream which includes this distortion. It is trivial for a speaker to respond to signals in the audio range so they will pick up sidebands correlated to the signal, some sidebands may be pushed into the inaudible range. If you are interested Stereophile publish jitter measurements and graphs on all the digital players they test ...


----------



## JohnFerrier

I'm just doubtful that things in the Mhz range (slew rate, jitter) are actually going to cause the transducers to respond differently. I think that speakers/headphone roll off around 20khz.

 -

 Okay. You mean sidebands are created in the audio range. Got it. Now I wonder, how are cables involved with the creation of such jitter? LOL (Never mind me.)


----------



## dfkt

Not to mention this discussion is about power cables... so I assume jitter from a digital transport or DAC is not the main issue?


----------



## Budgie

This is about power cords, but that being said, a few nanoseconds of jitter is not audible. 

 Quote-
 Eric Benjamin and Benjamin Gannon, "Theoretical and Audible Effects of Jitter on Digital Audio Quality", Pre-print 4826 of the 105th AES Convention, San Francisco, September 1998. This paper concluded that the threshold of audibility of jitter on normal music signals is around 20ns. 

 Thats just one conclusion. I find many sources that have tested listeners and found much higher rates of jitter to be effectivley inaudible-

Artifact Audibility Comparisons

http://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/ast/26/1/50/_pdf

AST : Vol. 26 (2005) , No. 1 pp.50-54

 That last one even included audio critics! If they can't hear it, what chance do us mere mortals have?
 Jitter is really a non issue for any reasonably designed gear.

 Oh ya, back to power cables- I never thought I would quote a cable seller on anything, but one company seems to be bucking the power cable snake oil and B.S. trend -
Blue Jeans Cable--Does Wire Matter?

 Qoute-
 Absent some sort of known malfunction, there's very little reason to think that replacement of control or power cables will improve your system's performance at all. There have been a lot of strange claims made in recent years about power cords, and people paying hundreds or even thousands of dollars for them; but the fact is that a power cord, so long as it's well-constructed and undamaged, correctly sized for the load, and driving a reasonably well-designed power supply, should make no difference whatsoever to the sound of your system. The same goes for these other non-signal cables. If they seem to be working, don't mess with them. 

 If I couldn't solder, I would buy my cables from Blue Jeans. At least they have reasonable explanations for what they build-
Blue Jeans Cable--Index of Informational Articles


----------



## nick_charles

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Budgie* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 Eric Benjamin and Benjamin Gannon, "Theoretical and Audible Effects of Jitter on Digital Audio Quality", Pre-print 4826 of the 105th AES Convention, San Francisco, September 1998. This paper concluded that the threshold of audibility of jitter on normal music signals is around 20ns. 

 Thats just one conclusion. I find many sources that have tested listeners and found much higher rates of jitter to be effectivley inaudible-
_

 

Two things are worth mentioning here. In the B&G study only one subject was able to hear jitter at 20ns, and that on only one of the four test tracks. These tracks were chosen from McGill University Music Samples specifically to have the highest possible audibility for jitter. The average for even this best subject was 60ns , other subjects ran from ~ 100 to 175ns.

 Secondly the B & G test was for music-correlated sidebands, the worst case , the Ashihara et al study used random jitter which is much more benign hence the much higher thresholds.


----------



## nick_charles

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Budgie* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Oh ya, back to power cables- I never thought I would quote a cable seller on anything, but one company seems to be bucking the power cable snake oil and B.S. trend -
Blue Jeans Cable--Does Wire Matter?

 Qoute-
 Absent some sort of known malfunction, there's very little reason to think that replacement of control or power cables will improve your system's performance at all. There have been a lot of strange claims made in recent years about power cords, and people paying hundreds or even thousands of dollars for them; but the fact is that a power cord, so long as it's well-constructed and undamaged, correctly sized for the load, and driving a reasonably well-designed power supply, should make no difference whatsoever to the sound of your system. The same goes for these other non-signal cables. If they seem to be working, don't mess with them. _

 

I trust BJC can back this assertion up with properly proctored blind listening tests 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 This really should be less about who you believe, despite their experience and credentials, but more about who can provide the best evidence for their case.


----------



## mojo

Budgie;4364789 said:
			
		

> Eric Benjamin and Benjamin Gannon, "Theoretical and Audible Effects of Jitter on Digital Audio Quality", Pre-print 4826 of the 105th AES Convention, San Francisco, September 1998. This paper concluded that the threshold of audibility of jitter on normal music signals is around 20ns./QUOTE]
> 
> Um, yeah, okay, but... any DAC worth it's salt uses it's own internal clock, i.e. it re-clocks the data so you would have to have an incredibly bad cable to affect it.
> 
> As a test I connected two sound cards together with an expensive glass optical cable and a cheap eBay plastic one. I then played back an audio sample that alternates between sine waves of various frequencies and random noise, and recorded it on the other PC. I then wrote a program to check the recording and it was bit-for-fit identical the original on both cables. Thus, data was transferred perfected and re-clocked (during recording) perfectly, so at least as far as digital optical cables go they make no difference at all.


----------



## Uncle Erik

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mojo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_As a test I connected two sound cards together with an expensive glass optical cable and a cheap eBay plastic one. I then played back an audio sample that alternates between sine waves of various frequencies and random noise, and recorded it on the other PC. I then wrote a program to check the recording and it was bit-for-fit identical the original on both cables. Thus, data was transferred perfected and re-clocked (during recording) perfectly, so at least as far as digital optical cables go they make no difference at all._

 

Yeah, but which one of the two has a higher profit margin?

 There's your difference.


----------



## Budgie

It's not that I "believe" BJC, it's that I agree. 
 There is nothing magical or mystical (or even difficult) about understanding how to get 120/220 vac at one frequency (50 or 60 hz usually) to travel up three or four feet (one or two meters) of copper wire. It's all very basic electrical principals, that I learned back in the 70's during the educational process of getting my technicians liscense. 

 I am still waiting for anything like a realistic plausible explanation as to why a power cord might make a difference (especially after not finding an audible differance in my own "listening tests"). Till that happens, I will consider the case to be allready proven. Power cables are only for decoration.


----------



## Terminus Est 23

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Budgie* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It's not that I "believe" BJC, it's that I agree. 
 There is nothing magical or mystical (or even difficult) about understanding how to get 120/220 vac at one frequency (50 or 60 hz usually) to travel up three or four feet (one or two meters) of copper wire. It's all very basic electrical principals, that I learned back in the 70's during the educational process of getting my technicians liscense. 

 I am still waiting for anything like a realistic plausible explanation as to why a power cord might make a difference (especially after not finding an audible differance in my own "listening tests"). Till that happens, I will consider the case to be allready proven. Power cables are only for decoration._

 

Keep your newfangled scientifical stuff away from my ears! Unless you're selling me something, then science me up.


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## Happy Camper

Background : LessLoss Audio Devices Store

 High frequency energy filtering. There's more than 50-60 cycle energy in the transmission feed. The more that enters your device, the more the device is reduced in performing to it's full potential. Cable companies use passive filtering vs active filtering to minimize this effect.

 Read through Why Less/Loss? I don't and am not trying to hawk a product. It helps to understand a bit better, the science of a power cable.


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## pompon

This cat got Virtual Dynamic.
 They not sponsor anymore ... good job to not permit us anymore to have samples and contest to win cables.


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## bigshot

virtual dynamic no good any way. no loss. free junk no good.

 See ya
 Steve


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## Uncle Erik

So Virtual Dynamics pulled out of sponsorship?

 Gee, they disappeared just when they were going to put out the big study proving all the skeptics wrong.

 I'd still like to see the final version of the study.


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## immtbiker

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pompon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_... good job to not permit us anymore to have samples and contest to win cables._

 

You're welcome. Please let us know if there's anything else we can do for you


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## Akathisia

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pompon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This cat got Virtual Dynamic.
 They not sponsor anymore ... good job to not permit us anymore to have samples and contest to win cables._

 

You really want a free house fire?


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## pompon

Will all this peaple saying all this negative thing .. was the best thing to do.

 I have somes of their cables and it's the best I heard. The only complain is the rigidity ... it's difficult to install and do a clean installation.


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## Zanth

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pompon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The only complain is the rigidity ... it's difficult to install and do a clean installation._

 

This was my major complaint. VERY difficult to get behind my amps and player without lifting my Melos right off the table 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I was using the Master series IC's. Never used one of their power cords.


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## mojo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pompon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have somes of their cables and it's the best I heard. The only complain is the rigidity ... it's difficult to install and do a clean installation._

 

They should use softer plastic tubing. The better quality stuff is more flexible but still does not kink. It looks like they used the really cheap stuff.


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## Maniac

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mojo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_They should use softer plastic tubing. The better quality stuff is more flexible but still does not kink. It looks like they used the really cheap stuff._

 

Well, the more stuff you put on it, the stiffer it will get, especially if you add those nylon netting on the outside. Making big cable that is soft and flexible is actually harder than it would seem to most people...


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## bigshot

Freud would have a field day with this discussion!

 See ya
 Steve


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## Zanth

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Maniac* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well, the more stuff you put on it, the stiffer it will get, especially if you add those nylon netting on the outside. Making big cable that is soft and flexible is actually harder than it would seem to most people..._

 

Elco. They do it, and they are VERY light and flexible. My bet is that using a garden hose as an encasing and adding saltpetre or whatever it is in there is the culprit


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## bigshot

Saltpetre would *definitely* not make it stiffer!

 See ya
 Steve


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## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Saltpetre would *definitely* not make it stiffer!

 See ya
 Steve_

 

"it" would eat it up, like the cat did.


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## Terminus Est 23

Amazing that they promised this test/report that was going to prove their claims for once and for all . . . and now not only has the test/report gone missing in action but they disappear as well?

 No, that doesn't look shady at all!


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## Maniac

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Zanth* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Elco. They do it, and they are VERY light and flexible. My bet is that using a garden hose as an encasing and adding saltpetre or whatever it is in there is the culprit 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Well, that's why I said harder. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Especially hard when you use thick single strand wire like they do. I've recently been testing cable that contains 2mm * 2 solid core wire it in, and it gets rather stiff compared to some of the cables that I've tried before.


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## mojo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Maniac* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well, the more stuff you put on it, the stiffer it will get, especially if you add those nylon netting on the outside. Making big cable that is soft and flexible is actually harder than it would seem to most people..._

 

Maybe if they just didn't use plastic tubing to artificially bulk up their cable and try to make it look more expensive than it is...


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## Akabeth

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What profit?

 Sandblasting is only used in the power 3 and Basic.


 Lets dissect another cable shall we?



_

 

: O ! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 I'm still reading this thread from page 1... went across this and now at page 22. Moving on...


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## dfkt

And what are you trying to tell us by quoting that picture?


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## bigshot

Where do they park the Taurus with all that crap in their garage?

 See ya
 Steve


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## Akathisia

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
_Where do they park the Taurus with all that crap in their garage?

 See ya
 Steve_

 

You can't see it in the pic but it's right behind the Delorean they use to go back to the big bang. That's how they get Linipur conductors hand annealed by the gods.


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## Know Talent

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Akathisia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You can't see it in the pic but it's right behind the Delorean they use to go back to the big bang. That's how they get Linipur conductors hand annealed by the gods.




_

 

Don't forget the "Black Gate" Flux capacitors!!!


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## WittyzTH

wow! spam!


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## EnOYiN

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *WittyzTH* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_wow! spam!_

 

Yeah, it's the second time in this thread. I reported one before this as well which looked kinda similar.


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## meat01

It is like the 5th time in this thread, probably because of the number of page views. Maybe the thread should just be locked.


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## BIG POPPA

Why are the pictures taken down from this post? To me this is a reference post how companies fall from grace. 
Will Abyss fall from recent events?


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