# rolled some fuses - this is what I heard



## Spiug31

AHPII Gold : fun but constrained frequencies, flat soundstage not as detailed as Padis
 AHPII Copper : less constrained than gold but not relaxing and has a very "in head sound"
 default silver wire fuse : less dynamic, sounds thin as if it's underpowered
 Padis 3A fuse with quicksilver connection (preferred direction) : Easily the best - wide open sound, chocolate black background, superb.
 Padis 3A fuse with quicksilver connection (disliked direction) : compared to the other direction - very pinched with restricted bass and treble, much less separation of instruments.
 Padis 3A fuse without quicksilver connection : compared to the non-Padis fuses listed it presents far more frequencies with far less constraint, without quicksilver it sounds better than the other fuses I've tried but with quicksilver (once it's been burned in) it gives me music 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 These fuses were tested in the capacitor bank I use for my minidac. Signal path is PC --usb-> EA modded battery powered UA-5 --XV2_coax-> battery powered mini-dac --> lightly modded K340's

 I'll re-apply some quicksilver to the padis fuse + fuse holder tomorrow and re-start its long burn-in :sheepish grin: live and learn 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The Quicksilver I use is Xtreme AV Quicksilver, after this test I am sorely tempted to get some Quicksilver gold 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 --edit---
 All of the fuses used have had 100+ hours of use and the Padis has had nearly 600 in my preferred direction (with it's sound stabilising after 120 hours) and around 120 hours of running while in the other orientation . The fuses quicksilver had been burned in for more that 400 hours.


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## velogreg

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Spiug31* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_AHPII Gold : fun but constrained frequencies, flat soundstage not as detailed as Padis
 AHPII Copper : less constrained than gold but not relaxing and has a very "in head sound"
 default silver wire fuse : less dynamic, sounds thin as if it's underpowered
 Padis 3A fuse with quicksilver connection (preferred direction) : Easily the best - wide open sound, chocolate black background, superb.
 Padis 3A fuse with quicksilver connection (disliked direction) : compared to the other direction - very pinched with restricted bass and treble, much less separation of instruments.
 Padis 3A fuse without quicksilver connection : compared to the non-Padis fuses listed it presents far more frequencies with far less constraint, without quicksilver it sounds better than the other fuses I've tried but with quicksilver (once it's been burned in) it gives me music 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 These fuses were tested in the capacitor bank I use for my minidac. Signal path is PC --usb-> EA modded battery powered UA-5 --XV2_coax-> battery powered mini-dac --> lightly modded K340's

 I'll re-apply some quicksilver to the padis fuse + fuse holder tomorrow and re-start its long burn-in :sheepish grin: live and learn 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The Quicksilver I use is Xtreme AV Quicksilver, after this test I am sorely tempted to get some Quicksilver gold 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 --edit---
 All of the fuses used have had 100+ hours of use and the Padis has had nearly 600 in my preferred direction (with it's sound stabilising after 120 hours) and around 120 hours of running while in the other orientation . The fuses quicksilver had been burned in for more that 400 hours. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Very interesting. I wonder if the Padis or the Quicksilver made the greater difference. Have you tried the HiFi tuning fuses. I took a leap of faith on one of their silver cryo'ed over hyped version. So far, the jury is still out.


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## ruZZ.il

I'd love to see blind test results.


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## LawnGnome

If your so worried that a fuse will lessen sound quality, why not just jumper it?

 The chance of requiring a fuse isn't good if you don't over run your gear.


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## Spiug31

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *velogreg* 
_Very interesting. I wonder if the Padis or the Quicksilver made the greater difference. Have you tried the HiFi tuning fuses. I took a leap of faith on one of their silver cryo'ed over hyped version. So far, the jury is still out._

 

It was definitely a combination that produced the best result

 I haven't tried the Hi-Fi Tuning fuses (they seemed to get mixed reviews and cost a bit too much for me to justify experimenting with them)

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ruZZ.il* 
_I'd love to see blind test results._

 

Difficult to do without a specialist setup. If it helps I have a poor memory and honestly had no clear recollection of what I wrote from one fuse to the next. It's also worth noting that I first rolled these fuses around 5 months ago (prior to me getting some Quicksilver) and the Padis was what I chose from that trial as well.

 Just a thought - going by looks alone the basic silver wire fuse with its clear glass sides would likely get the vote as best looking 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. The Padis fuse has shiny ends but an opaque turquoise body so wouldn't be one I'd pick on looks alone.


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## Spiug31

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LawnGnome* 
_ If your so worried that a fuse will lessen sound quality, why not just jumper it?

 The chance of requiring a fuse isn't good if you don't over run your gear._

 


 Replacing the onboard fuse in my mini-dac needs it to be sent for servicing and costs over £80, replacing the Padis fuse costs only £17 including postage and there is little risk of my mini-dac being damaged if my Padis blows first. I am now powering my mini-dac with an (12V, 12AH) SLA battery so a high current discharge is something I'd rather not have happen.

 With peace of mind, I'm free to enjoy the music


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## rocoa

I´ve experimented Hifi-tunig fuse on my CD player Electrocompaniet EMC-1 and this stuff really works. The sound is more vivid, there are more air around the instruments, big soundstage, Bla, bla, bla.......After burned in I change the direction and the sound is different(In one position the sound is more crisp and thel other more relaxed). Wy the polarity would make such a difference is beyound me.
 I´ve also tried cleaning regular old fuses for the preamp and power with Kontak fluid, a very nice tweak that´s cheap and efective.
 Now, I´m going to experimentwith other brands (padis, AHP, isoclean). I´m waiting for a fuses to put on into my Zana Deux headphone amp....
 I recommend to try and listen for yourself.


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## infinitesymphony

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LawnGnome* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If your so worried that a fuse will lessen sound quality, why not just jumper it?_

 

Not safe, but that's actually a pretty good idea. It couldn't hurt to test the sound quality to see what "no fuse" sounds like. Sort of like high quality input/output capacitors vs. none.


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## chesebert

sigh..why are there so many tweaks...I don't have time to play with my toys.......money can't even buy you happiness in this hobby.....its money + time, which I sorely don't got any.


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## markl

I did google searches on both "Padis fuse" and "AHPII fuse" and virtually all that comes is this thread. Any links?

 I've rolled some Hi-Fi tuning fuses in both my source and my amp. They are in fact directional, many painful swaps in an out to figure out correct orientation. Benefits, IMO, are mild, maybe half of what a decent power cable swap can do, but benefiting the same sorts of areas as a decent power cord.


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## rocoa

Here you are:

FUSE

Padis / Furutech Feinsicherungen 5x20mm - Neuheit! en venta en eBay.es (finaliza el 24-dic-07 15:57:02 H.Esp)
 Regards

 Rodrigo


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## Spiug31

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markl* 
_I did google searches on both "Padis fuse" and "AHPII fuse" and virtually all that comes is this thread. Any links?_

 

If you substitute "Feinsicherung" instead of fuse you'll get the german pages (both Padis, AHP and Hi-Fi Tuning are German based I think (I could be wrong) ). What persuaded me to try the AHP's was a review in a Canadian online audio magazine (which I can no longer seem to find) and other general feedback threads. I bought the Padis after I noticed that the eBay sellers seemed to have it ranked above the AHP's and with them linking it in their blurbs to Furutech I thought it worth a flutter 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The AHPII fuses look to be the same ones as sold by PSAudio PS Audio - Accessories - Critical Link so searches for those may be more informative.

 A search for "ahp Sicherungen" on eBay in the titles and description + within the EU resulted in both Padis and AHP fuses turning up.
 Doing a google search for "ahp Kupfer" will bring up the copper (ie. non-gold plated) AHPII fuses.

 p.s. I agree, information is sparse


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## immtbiker

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LawnGnome* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If your so worried that a fuse will lessen sound quality, why not just jumper it?_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *infinitesymphony* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Not safe, but that's actually a pretty good idea. It couldn't hurt to test the sound quality to see what "no fuse" sounds like. Sort of like high quality input/output capacitors vs. none._

 

If you jumper it, wouldn't you run into the same dilema comparing the wiring in each jumper wire?

 Does Nordost make Valhalla jumper cables and alligator clips 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ?


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## infinitesymphony

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *immtbiker* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If you jumper it, wouldn't you run into the same dilema comparing the wiring in each jumper wire?_

 

I guess so... But there would still be less connections than the fuse housing, etc. Just use your favorite wire, I guess.


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## Jon L

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *infinitesymphony* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Not safe, but that's actually a pretty good idea._

 

Never, EvAR, bypass fuses in electronics. Not only can the equipment go up in smoke and sustain Major $$ damage, you can burn down your house/neighbors; and of course, all your fire/homeowner's insurance becomes void.


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## infinitesymphony

Right, I just meant the theory behind not using a fuse, which is why I prefaced it with "not safe." I wouldn't do it, but maybe it would prove something about one fuse versus another.


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## Dan Millheim

I have a few Hifi fuses coming any day now to try out. 

 One thing that I have done with stock fuses that has improved my sound is paint the ends of the fuses with a thin coating of Xtreme Cables Quicksilver Contact Enhancer. It is cheaper then upgrading a bunch of fuses. I don't like using this stuff on RCA terminations as it is too messy. I have found that on tube pins and fuses it works great.


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## evilking

Holy Cow! It's _fuses_ now? 

 Is there anything you lot _don't_ upgrade?

 And fuse _burn-in? _

 And silver coating the _fuse? _

 I mean, they're *fuses! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


*

 20mm of metal wire in the audio chain. 20 *milli*meters. That's less the width of my little finger!

 Honestly, who has the time to trial/burn-in _fuses_? Doesn't anyone have any other hobbies/passions/things to do in general that could see some of that time spent on _fuses_?

 Sorry if this post seems pointless but I just can't comprehend what's being discussed here...


 In all seriousness, "Spiug31" and co, do you _really_ hear audible differences when you change the *fuse* in the plugs of your audio gear?






 EK


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## Spiug31

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *evilking* 
_ Holy Cow! It's fuses now?

 Is there anything you lot don't upgrade?_

 

Ears ? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *evilking* 
_In all seriousness, "Spiug31" and co, do you really hear audible differences when you change the fuse in the plugs of your audio gear?_

 

My audio gear is battery powered so I haven't rolled fuses in a mains plug (yet 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ) but certainly changing the fuse in my capacitor bank has a noticeable effect.

 Get a Hi-Fi tuning or Padis fuse from eBay and try for yourself - you know you want to 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 What has made the most impression on me though has been the plummet in detail and sound quality now that I have had to renew the quicksilver contact enhancer on my fuse and fuse holder. I'm really, really, really, looking forward to that getting past the awkward stages and sounding good again.


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## Spiug31

p.s. fuses can be tweaks, its the number power cables that blows my mind 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f21/it...viewed-219202/


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## Dan Millheim

My two High-Fi Tuning fuses arrived and have been burning in for 48 hours. I put them in my Headroom Home Maxed SE amp. When they first arrived, two days ago, I did not notice that much of a difference, certainly not worth the expense,or so I thought... BUT... today after warming up my rig for an hour I sat down to listen to some tunes and WOW!!!!!! 

 I have done a lot of tweaks and cable upgrades but nothing has impacted my size of my SQ like these little fuses. I am sure it is cumulative with some great cables and gear but these things have taken my system to another level...I still can't believe what I am hearing! Upgrading fuses is the real deal, tweak. 

 Sure, come on trolls and cable haters you can bash away but for people who want to get the most out of their equipment, this is one tweak you have got to try.


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## Acoustic Chef

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *evilking* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Holy Cow! It's fuses now? 

 Is there anything you lot don't upgrade?

 And fuse burn-in? 

 And silver coating the fuse? 

 I mean, they're *fuses! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


*

 20mm of metal wire in the audio chain. 20 *milli*meters. That's less the width of my little finger!

 Honestly, who has the time to trial/burn-in fuses? Doesn't anyone have any other hobbies/passions/things to do in general that could see some of that time spent on fuses?

 Sorry if this post seems pointless but I just can't comprehend what's being discussed here...


 In all seriousness, "Spiug31" and co, do you really hear audible differences when you change the *fuse* in the plugs of your audio gear?






 EK_

 

You crimp a hose how does that effect the water flow?


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## Bizzel

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You crimp a hose how does that effect the water flow?_

 

Inside the ICs the connections are incredibly thin, far thinner than the fuse wire.


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## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You crimp a hose how does that effect the water flow?_

 

Electrical current through wires and water through a hose are not at all similar, I'm afraid.

 See ya
 Steve


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## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Dan Millheim* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My two High-Fi Tuning fuses arrived and have been burning in for 48 hours. I put them in my Headroom Home Maxed SE amp. When they first arrived, two days ago, I did not notice that much of a difference, certainly not worth the expense,or so I thought... BUT... today after warming up my rig for an hour I sat down to listen to some tunes and WOW!_

 

How does a fuse "warm up"?

 See ya
 Steve


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## slwiser

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Electrical current through wires and water through a hose are not at all similar, I'm afraid.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

Check out this link and think again.

Hydraulic analogy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Vul Kuolun

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You crimp a hose how does that effect the water flow?_

 

So resistance is the keyfeature?

Could you please put the limitations of the fuse in relation to the power consumption of an average headphone amplifier?

How much energy is lost through resistance in the fuse, and how much is still left for the amp?

How much does the amplifier need to feed it's own circuits and the headphone?

How much energy do you gain by using a fuse with, let's say, half the resistance of the standard fuse?

 Always putting aside, that the rest of the of the amp will have a much much smaller capability of using high currents than a standard fuse?


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## Vul Kuolun

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *slwiser* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Check out this link and think again.

Hydraulic analogy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia_

 

Check the relations. The error in reasoning is not that the water analogy is not applicable. It's just that if you crimp a major pipeline, you can still fill your water gun with what's left behind the bottleneck.


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## slwiser

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Vul Kuolun* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Check the relations. The error in reasoning is not that the water analogy is not applicable. It's just that if you crimp a major pipeline, you can still fill your water gun with what's left behind the bottleneck._

 

Not if you can't access that water.


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## LawnGnome

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *slwiser* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Not if you can't access that water._

 

So your saying a standard fuse passes no current?


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## slwiser

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LawnGnome* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So your saying a standard fuse passes no current? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

Of course not. If all depends on your definition of crimp. If in crimp as being closed then you have no circuit. The only way to fill a water pistol is to have some access to the water up stream of the crimp. 

 I am thinking you are saying crimp as in increased resistance as opposed to closed as I understood it.


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## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *slwiser* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Check out this link and think again.

Hydraulic analogy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia_

 

Are you saying that a fuse acts as a resistor?

 See ya
 Steve


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## slwiser

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Are you saying that a fuse acts as a resistor?

 See ya
 Steve_

 

That is what got me into trouble above, no I was not, it seem that someone else was. Crimped to me in this context is a closed circuit. How can you fill a water gun from a closed crimped hose is what I was questioning without access to the water when it is crimped. Seems like someone is attempting to keep on changing the context.


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## Vul Kuolun

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *slwiser* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ Seems like someone is attempting to keep on changing the context._

 

That's absurd. "Acoustic Chef" tried to imply that a fuse may act like a crimp in a hose, meaning it is limiting the flow of electricity in the power line. That's all.
 I cannot imagine he was meaning that a electrical device cannot work at all as long as a fuse is in the power line. Can you?


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## slwiser

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You crimp a hose how does that effect the water flow?_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Electrical current through wires and water through a hose are not at all similar, I'm afraid.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *slwiser* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Check out this link and think again.

Hydraulic analogy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Vul Kuolun* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Check the relations. The error in reasoning is not that the water analogy is not applicable. It's just that if you crimp a major pipeline, you can still fill your water gun with what's left behind the bottleneck._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Vul Kuolun* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's absurd. "Acoustic Chef" tried to imply that a fuse may act like a crimp in a hose, meaning it is limiting the flow of electricity in the power line. That's all.
 I cannot imagine he was meaning that a electrical device cannot work at all as long as a fuse is in the power line. Can you?_

 

Logic does not apply to this thread as it has deteriorated into confusion. 

 1. I was addressing in my first post the question of whether electrical circuits and water circuit were similar. The laws of symmetry applies to both fields as shown in the link. Bigshot first stated that they were not similar and I took issue with that strict statement by showing a link to the symmetry of hydraulic and current analysis. "Acoustic Chef" statement was not in my view as to what I was addressing in that first post.

 2. Then Vul said something about filling water gun from a broken circuit or a closed circuit as I understood it. I took issue with that saying the only way to get water or current is if you had some access to the upstream source. Which of course with a crimped hose or broken fuse is not possible.

 3. I did not address anything about what "Acoustic Chef" said. His post is being supported by everything that I have stated. 

 4. I don't know how the confusion about current going through a failed fuse can be taken from what I stated. 

 5. Vul, in item 2 it appears to me that it is you that was making some statement about a blown fuse passing current in this context.

 I know this is not what you were saying but it lead to my confusion in later statements. 

 So now I am completely confused as to what context is supposed to be in the works right now. 

 Sorry if my contributions have led to this confusion.


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## Vul Kuolun

The last time i checked, the point was "standard" vs. "audiophile" fuse, not "broken" vs. "intact" fuse.

 Maybe the point was that i was aiming more at Acoustic Chefs statement,not at bigshots.

 If it was for broken vs. intact, i'm sure we can agree on the fact that broken fuses sound worse than intact ones. D'accord?


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## slwiser

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Vul Kuolun* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The last time i checked, the point was "standard" vs. "audiophile" fuse, not "broken" vs. "intact" fuse.

 If it was for broken vs. intact, i'm sure we can agree on the fact that broken fuses sound worse than intact ones. D'accord?_

 

All I have been attempting to address is the similarity between how water and current flows and provided a link to suggest that there are similarities which was an issue in Bigshot's post. And it got to here....

 Sorry, again for introducing some engineering relationships with that link.


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## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You crimp a hose how does that effect the water flow?_

 

All depends on how the waterflow will be used, if you need the full flow it has an impact, now if the flow will be used to feed a dropper or an small little tiny hose, it doesn't matter, as there has to be a place for storage of the water first, indeed it will help as will make the reservoir smaller, as it will take more time to get full....
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I have some degree in hydraulics, if you want a debate let me know...Bernoulli to the rescue!!!! BTW a fuse is not a restriction on the flow of the current, it is a restriction for the excess that may result in a short circuit and overheating as a result, that is completelly different, in normal conditions the fuse will act the same as if you have a gauge 2 cooper wire there...otherwise change the fuses on the mains home!!!


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## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *slwiser* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That is what got me into trouble above, no I was not, it seem that someone else was._

 

The wikipedia link you posted cited the analogy of a "smaller pipe" (which I'm assuming as being like a crimped hose) being the same as a resistor. Perhaps the waterworks analogy isn't so good after all.

 See ya
 Steve


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## slwiser

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The wikipedia link you posted cited the analogy of a "smaller pipe" (which I'm assuming as being like a crimped hose) being the same as a resistor. Perhaps the waterworks analogy isn't so good after all.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

Maybe not, but I know I should not have brought it up now.


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## stevenkelby

There may be more to it than that. 2 cables, or pipes, with exactly the same diameter, pressure and flow can still perform differently due to internal or exit turbulence. Just a thought.


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## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *stevenkelby* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There may be more to it than that. 2 cables, or pipes, with exactly the same diameter, pressure and flow can still perform differently due to internal or exit turbulence. Just a thought._

 

But again it is very important to define how much of that total flow you actually need, or are going ot use, if you are using a 10% or less, the rest is just waste ...


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## Vul Kuolun

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *stevenkelby* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There may be more to it than that. 2 cables, or pipes, with exactly the same diameter, pressure and flow can still perform differently due to internal or exit turbulence. Just a thought._

 

There you go, introducing the "maybe we do not know everything about cables or electricity"-hypothesis.

 Doesn't make sense. As long as you can match the characteristics of the water you put in the tube with what's coming out of it, it doesn't matter what turbulences may happen inside or at the ends of it. You could always see a difference, if there was any.

 The point is, the "water" we're sending through it may have an infinite number of characteristics; but we're only interested in the attributes we're trying to put through it. 

 You don't have to worry about all the wicked stuff that may happen inside the tube. It's totally redundant. As long as the information you're appliyng at one end of the tube appears on the other side without distortion, the tube did it's job. We're using it for a specific purpose, not for a process that has to be perfect in all attributes per se.

 If we put green water in, and blue water comes out is totaly redundant when all that we're trying to bring across is how many gallons per minute pass through it in a specific number of cycles of changing the flow direction.


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## stevenkelby

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_But again it is very important to define how much of that total flow you actually need, or are going ot use, if you are using a 10% or less, the rest is just waste ... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Maybe using 10% of smoothly flowing water is better than using 10% of messy, turbulent water?


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## stevenkelby

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Vul Kuolun* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There you go, introducing the "maybe we do not know everything about cables or electricity"-hypothesis.

 Doesn't make sense._

 

Come on, really, are you serious?

 I don't want to insult you but are you honestly saying from the bottom of your heart, with everything that know as a man that:

*"We know all there is to know"* about _anything_?

 If so I have no response for you.

 I know very little about cables but I know enough about the world to know that no-one knows everything about anything.

 My comment:

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *stevenkelby* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There may be more to it than that._

 

or even your mis-quoting of it:

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Vul Kuolun* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_"maybe we do not know everything about cables or electricity"_

 

are not just philosophies or ideas, they are facts!

 I don't know if power cords or fuses make a difference, I think they probably can, I've never heard a difference, but I understand why it's logically possible (I'll explain if you want). I;m also aware of placebo, DBTs and the difficulty in proving these things. I'm open to either possibility, maybe they do, maybe they don't. I don't know and neither do you. We all have our thoughts and beliefs, but no-one knows for sure, at least they can't prove it to my satisfaction. Maybe one day they will, maybe not.

 The truth of the matter is:

 "There _*is *_more to it than we know, and we do _*not *_know everything about cables or electricity, or *anything *else."

 I defy any intelligent person to believe otherwise!


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## IPodPJ

I'm very inclined to try one. I was extremely skeptical about power cords making a difference. Once I got mine and plugged it in to my amp, everything changed. It sounded like I have a whole new source. Triple the dimensionality/depth/imaging, much less distortion, lower noise flower, blacker background, bass bloat = gone, overall improvement, etc... So it does not surprise me one bit that you can get an improvement by rolling the fuse.

 Woohoo!!! 2,000th post!


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## stevenkelby

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm very inclined to try one. I was extremely skeptical about power cords making a difference. Once I got mine and plugged it in to my amp, everything changed. It sounded like I have a whole new source. Triple the dimensionality/depth/imaging, much less distortion, lower noise flower, blacker background, bass bloat = gone, overall improvement, etc... So it does not surprise me one bit that you can get an improvement by rolling the fuse.

 Woohoo!!! 2,000th post!_

 

See, I do believe you. You have no need to lie and I am very curious to hear it too. No fuses in my system other than TT fuse though, and that just turns the motor (very well), doesn't actually affect the signal.

 How confident are you that it's real, can you have a friend swap fuses without you knowing which is which and record the results? It's not DBT but it's something. Would you be interested in that? I probably wouldn't TBH as I know a difference when I hear it and don't want to waste time with DBT, if I need a DBT to tell the difference, the difference is too small to worry about!


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## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *stevenkelby* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_See, I do believe you. You have no need to lie and I am very curious to hear it too. No fuses in my system other than TT fuse though, and that just turns the motor (very well), doesn't actually affect the signal.

 How confident are you that it's real, can you have a friend swap fuses without you knowing which is which and record the results? It's not DBT but it's something. Would you be interested in that? I probably wouldn't TBH as I know a difference when I hear it and don't want to waste time with DBT, if I need a DBT to tell the difference, the difference is too small to worry about!_

 

I haven't swapped fuses. I'm not sure if I'm going to open up my Opera and do it. If I get daring I will. But I certainly want to. It just seems like a bit of work to take this amp apart.

 What I was talking about was my Cobalt Cable Ultimate Power cord ($120). And as far as knowing if what I hear is a real difference, I would be willing to bet my entire headphone rig that what I am hearing is not anything close to Placebo. The audible difference of this power cord vs. a stock power cord is about five times as great as the difference between stock interconnects and good interconnects. Now I understand why people spend thousands on power cords. I am kind of scared to try out the one Virtual Dynamics is going to loan me which is a $4,150 cord (Master LE 2.0). I usually make it a rule to never try out a product I can't afford to buy. But hey, he says they negotiate prices.


----------



## Vul Kuolun

@stevenkelby:

 I'm not sure if was successfull in making my point clear enough.

 I'm not saying we know everything about electricity. I'm saying it's of no interest at all if electricity has attributes we don't know about.

 We're using the water in the pipe for a specific purpose, with a specific machine that uses specific (known) atributes of water.

 As long as we can build up enough water pressure to move the membrane of our headphone in the same rythm as the membrane of the microphone was moved at the moment of the sound-"event", it doesn't matter at all if you can colour the water red, bless it or flavour it with strawberry taste.

 If any of the yet unknown atributes would have a consequence for the outcome, we would find out in the same moment we're matching input and output. The input is 100% known, which would unveil any unexpected anomaly.


----------



## stevenkelby

Sorry, I know you were talking about the power cord, should have been clearer. I would love to try a power cord but have no components that use them! Maybe my PC 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 You should definitely swap the fuse in the Opera, it will be easy and could be worthwhile. Plus, they aren't that expensive in the grand scheme of things.

 Vul, I see your point now but still think it's naive to say things like "The input is 100% known" when it may not be.


----------



## IPodPJ

I take it Vul is a disbeliever. Maybe he isn't taking into account things like harmonics, non-consistent waveforms, electron flow, etc. It's okay to be a skeptic but don't dismiss what you don't understand and especially haven't heard.

 I made this mistake initially by insulting Virtual Dynamics, who happen to be very nice people. Whether or not their cables may be worth the asking price is still up in the air and I'll know when I try it. But I know now not to dismiss anything until I try it because in audio, everything you think you know at any given time you don't. It only winds up making you look like an ass later.

 PJ = ass

 Now I need a power conditioner.


----------



## Vul Kuolun

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *stevenkelby* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Vul, I see your point now but still think it's naive to say things like "The input is 100% known" when it may not be._

 

Think again. You're saying we record, store, process and reproduce an unknown atribute of electricity (by accident !) that is not measurable, but audible? 

 Your ear is not a kind of multitester. It is responsive to variations in air pressure levels, in a very narrow range. So we have two extremely unlikely fortuities to come together to make the hypothsis possible at all:
The yet unknown possibility of electricity to store a yet unmeasurable atribute
The yet unknown ability of the ear to perceive exactly this atribute
Thinking of the fact that this should happen accidently, when all the sophisticated equipment you use had to be cumbersome developed and brought to perfection to reproduce the simple known elements seems very naive to me.


----------



## Vul Kuolun

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I take it Vul is a disbeliever. Maybe he isn't taking into account things like harmonics, non-consistent waveforms, electron flow, etc. It's okay to be a skeptic but don't dismiss what you don't understand and especially haven't heard._

 

Oh boy. Don't get me started about people who talk about things they don't know about.

 I'm sure you have a lot to contribute to harmonics, non-consistent waveforms and electron flow.

 Please respond to my points, or don't use my name. Thank you.


----------



## stevenkelby

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Vul Kuolun* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You're saying we record, store, process and reproduce an unknown atribute of electricity (by accident !) that is not measurable, but audible? _

 

Absolutely, positively, definitely, 100% _possibly _yes!

 Possibly not too, but it would be foolish to believe it's not possible.


----------



## IPodPJ

What a yutz.


----------



## stevenkelby

Yeah I'm out of this thread. 

 No point trying to teach a pig to sing. Wastes your time and upsets the pig. 

 Note, I'm not calling anyone a pig, it's an analogy.

 Smell you later.


----------



## Vul Kuolun

If you can't attack the argument, attack the man. Not the most intelligent strategy.


----------



## IPodPJ

What's to attack? Why don't you listen to some of the electronics we are talking about and then give your opinion.


----------



## slwiser

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *stevenkelby* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Absolutely, positively, definitely, 100% possibly yes!

 Possibly not too, but it would be foolish to believe it's not possible._

 

Here I go again with engineering concepts but here is another one.

 First order relationships are what we normally use in our "a wire is a wire" discussions. Second order relationships are real but are not fully developed in understanding what is going on in our wires. Our ears are marvelous devices and the ears can and do resolve second order relationships which I know of no one that has been able to capture analytically yet. Maybe some high end cable builders with degrees in Electrical Engineering have investigated these and are working to provide solutions to those relationships. I just don't know who if anyone is working on the second and third order relationships. 

 First order approximations don't resolve many things very well. First order relationships are fine as a first cut. Many areas of engineering go much further than first order approximations to understand what is going on.

 Let me make this clear...what I just wrote supposes the quote above. And I would go so far as to say 100% probability that we don't yet understand everything there is to know about "wire" in the audio train; to think otherwise would be foolish.


----------



## Vul Kuolun

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *slwiser* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Here I go again with engineering concepts but here is another one.

 First order relationships are what we normally use in our "a wire is a wire" discussions. Second order relationships are real but are not fully developed in understanding what is going on in our wires. Our ears are marvelous devices and the ears can and do resolve second order relationships which I know of no one that has been able to capture analytically yet. Maybe some high end cable builders with degrees in Electrical Engineering have investigated these and are working to provide solutions to those relationships. I just don't know who if anyone is working on the second and third order relationships. 

 First order approximations don't resolve many things very well. First order relationships are fine as a first cut. Many areas of engineering go much further than first order approximations to understand what is going on.

 Let me make this clear...what I just wrote supposes the quote above. And I would go so far as to say 100% probability that we don't yet understand everything there is to know about "wire" in the audio train; to think otherwise would be foolish._

 


 To be honest, i don't really get what you mean with the relationships of different orders. Which makes the thing interesting. Could you please explain?

 At last, we're measuring the movement of air during the recording process, and store it by shaping electricity in the same way as the air movement; which enables us to use this information to transform it to air movement again. 

 And again: We know what we put in. So where's the problem in comparing input vs. output? If the cable/ fuse may excell in a certain discipline we do not care for while recording, why should i care during reproduction?

 But we've come a long way since the "crimp" in the power line (fuse) is supposedly limiting the performance of a device. Which interest should i have in any feature of the fuse other than transmitting 50Hz alternating current?


----------



## slwiser

Here is a link which discusses some of the surface things about second order effects.

The Naked Truth about Interconnect Cables

 I leave it to you to continue this review by your internet searches.


----------



## Vul Kuolun

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *slwiser* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Here is a link which discusses some of the surface things about second order effects.

The Naked Truth about Interconnect Cables

 I leave it to you to continue this review by your internet searches._

 

1. No doubt about the "first order" effects.

 2. The "second order" effects are a complete arbitary denomination of the stuff we discuss here, with no concrete data or informations on the relevance for the recorded signal or the audible range, as usual.

 3. "Third order effects": Haha, very funny. Maybe is meant to boost the credibility of the "second order"-blabla.

 I'm disapointed. If it's so easy to "strew sand in your eyes"(german phrase, hope the picture works in english, too), than maybe fuses, cables and blessings from Machina Dynamica are for you.

 It's all been said, without any of my questions answered. Please continue characterizing night and day differences.


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *slwiser* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The Naked Truth about Interconnect Cables_

 

First order is measurable and provable. Second order is plausible, but there's no evidence to back it up. Third order is totally made up. This link is sales pitch of the first, second and third order.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *stevenkelby* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yeah I'm out of this thread. No point trying to teach a pig to sing. Wastes your time and upsets the pig._

 

Aw... Don't go away upset!

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## slwiser

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Vul Kuolun* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_1. No doubt about the "first order" effects.

 2. The "second order" effects are a complete arbitary denomination of the stuff we discuss here, with no concrete data or informations on the relevance for the recorded signal or the audible range, as usual.

 3. "Third order effects": Haha, very funny. Maybe is meant to boost the credibility of the "second order"-blabla.

 I'm disapointed. If it's so easy to "strew sand in your eyes"(german phrase, hope the picture works in english, too), than maybe fuses, cables and blessings from Machina Dynamica are for you.

 It's all been said, without any of my questions answered. Please continue characterizing night and day differences._

 

Consider this: 

 First order effect: Distance- s (ft)
 Second order effect: velocity - v (ft/sec)
 Third order effect: acceleration - a (ft per second squared)

 All very well known and observable effects. 

 So if you want to disregard all second and third order effects go ahead.

 The problem is that in wires these things have been normally described by their first order effects and everything else disregarded. You have to put a signal on a scope to observe rise times and other things and then the average guy does not know how to deal with those. Reflections due to impedance changes are a function of wire lengths. The ability to capture the rise of a signal is importance in how the S/PDIF signal is resolved. The impedance reflections can mask the true signal making the receiver chip lose resolution. This is just one example in wires. Second example we could work on capacitance effects of wires and how capacitance effects the signal but I will go not there yet.

 People who do high-end cables that are for real (Virtual Dynamics for one and Audioquest for another) understand these effects and since they are not well understood prefer to not share what they know to keep their trade secrets, secret.


----------



## Spiug31

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Vul Kuolun* 
_"strew sand in your eyes"(german phrase, hope the picture works in english, too)_

 

In english the phrase is "to throw sand in your face" 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 It doesn't work with snow but it's much more fun done that way 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, my first proper snowfall of the winter is happening as I type


----------



## Vul Kuolun

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *slwiser* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_...
 First order effect: Distance- s (ft)
 Second order effect: velocity - v (ft/sec)
 Third order effect: acceleration - a (ft per second squared)
 ...
 The problem is that in wires these things have been normally described by their first order effects and everything else disregarded. You have to put a signal on a scope to observe rise times and other things and then the average guy does not know how to deal with those. Reflections due to impedance changes are a function of wire lengths. The ability to capture the rise of a signal is importance in how the S/PDIF signal is resolved. The impedance reflections can mask the true signal making the receiver chip lose resolution. This is just one example in wires. Second example we could work on capacitance effects of wires and how capacitance effects the signal but I will go not there yet.

 People who do high-end cables that are for real (Virtual Dynamics for one and Audioquest for another) understand these effects and since they are not well understood prefer to not share what they know to keep their trade secrets, secret._

 

Matching in- and outputsignal on a scope doesn't seem like rocket science to me. 
 If these effects have such a great effect on the primitive signal (or the power line) we talk about, it would be of large interest in many disciplins of modern technology outside the audiophile biotope; Actually, i'd bet there are many companies dealing with much more complex transmition problems than "20Hz to 20Khz" with research departments probably multiple times bigger than the companies you named altogether; i find it absolutely implausible they have a secret knowledge that for example Sony, Yamaha or the Frauenhofer Institute has no access to or does not use for some mysterious reason.

 The question remains the same: How does a reproduced waveform from 20Hz to 20Khz look when played back with a "audiophile" fuse, and with a standard fuse?


----------



## Vul Kuolun

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Spiug31* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_In english the phrase is "to throw sand in your face" 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 It doesn't work with snow but it's much more fun done that way 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, my first proper snowfall of the winter is happening as I type 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Thanks.


----------



## Patrick82

With my old Krell KAV-500i power amp I upgraded from a stock fuse into a Hifi-Tuning GOLD fuse and the improvement was almost as small as Brilliant Pebbles which is on the bottom of my ranking list. I wasn't sure if it was a real improvement, it could have sounded better just because the fuse was cleaner. Later when I bypassed all fuses I heard huge improvements. The biggest improvement for the ICEpower amp and the smallest for the transport. 

 I don't like to spend $30 for something that is designed to break. I rather have something cheaper and less frail than a little fuse. I'm using Nordost Valkyrja wiring to bypass all my fuses, no problems. If something fries it fries, it's a small price to pay for a huge improvement in sound. Audiophiles don't care about skin burns anyway, because their girl (audio system) doesn't have eyes.


----------



## bigshot

Real men don't use fuses!

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## Acoustic Chef

*Best quotes of all time!!*

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_in audio, everything you think you know at any given time you don't. It only winds up making you look like an ass later._

 

 Quote:


 because their girl (audio system) doesn't have eyes. 
 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *stevenkelby* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No point trying to teach a pig to sing. Wastes your time and upsets the pig._

 

*


----------



## Acoustic Chef

You crimp a weak fire hose.. BOOM

 Water falls make alot of noise and hurt my ears.


----------



## Vul Kuolun

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You crimp a weak fire hose.. BOOM

 Water falls make alot of noise and hurt my ears._

 

You're just not trying to crimp a weak fire hose, but the waterfall. 
 Maybe you can answer my questions from a few pages earlier.

  Quote:


 So resistance is the keyfeature?

 * Could you please put the limitations of the fuse in relation to the power consumption of an average headphone amplifier?

 * How much energy is lost through resistance in the fuse, and how much is still left for the amp?

 * How much does the amplifier need to feed it's own circuits and the headphone?

 * How much energy do you gain by using a fuse with, let's say, half the resistance of the standard fuse?


 Always putting aside, that the rest of the of the amp will have a much much smaller capability of using high currents than a standard fuse? 
 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*Best quotes of all time!!*_

 

In case you do not want to answer, you can always signalise agreement with people making stupid insults.
 That, of course, could make you look just like the average audio snake oil salesman promoting his products in an audiophile internet message board.


----------



## Acoustic Chef

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Vul Kuolun* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_In case you do not want to answer, you can always signalise agreement with people making stupid insults.
 That, of course, could make you look just like the average audio snake oil salesman promoting his products in an audiophile internet message board._

 

Na, I was not in any real agreement, just thought they were funny. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Well... the first one's a bit true, and applies to everyone including myself, it's just something I think we all have to come to a realization with. We all need to take what ever it is we think we know and throw it all out the window if we ever plan to get anywhere in audio. Our ears will take us places no simple measuring device or logic ever will.

 Some people will have a greater understanding then others, yes; but an understanding gained through observation... not ignorance. I mean what is science anyway?

 Let me ask you this Vul.. When you pop your headphones on, what is it exactly is it you're listening too?


----------



## Vul Kuolun

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Our ears will take us places no simple measuring device or logic ever will._

 

I disagree. It's your mind that takes you to "audio heaven", not your ear.
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 Some people will have a greater understanding then others, yes; but an understanding gained through observation... not ignorance. I mean what is science anyway?_

 

Science is the key to all the music reproduction abilities we have today. It all is based on "simple" electrical engineering. If all we had was the "inventions" of the fuse - and cable companies, we wouldn't have much fun listening to music. We'd have to sing ourselves. 


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Let me ask you this Vul.. When you pop your headphones on, what is it exactly is it you're listening too?_

 

Why are you asking? 

 I'll tell you if you tell me how big the "crimp" of the fuse is in relationship to the power consumption of a better headphone amp. 
 As you may have noticed, i'm not a technicaly educated person, just technicaly interested.


----------



## bigshot

There's an awful lot of dodging and weaving going on in this thread.

 I'll make a definitive statement. Fuses make no difference. The distance spanned by the element of the fuse is so short, and the connection so solid, it is totally transparent to the sound. All of the discussion of crimps in hoses and water pressure building up are fawlty analogies attempting to substitute magical thinking for facts.

 There are things that improve sound... fuses ain't one of them.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## Spiug31

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
_I'll make a definitive statement. Fuses make no difference. The distance spanned by the element of the fuse is so short, and the connection so solid, it is totally transparent to the sound. All of the discussion of crimps in hoses and water pressure building up are fawlty analogies attempting to substitute magical thinking for facts.

 There are things that improve sound... fuses ain't one of them._

 

That's nice Steve, please tell which fuses with which kit didn't make a difference for you


----------



## Acoustic Chef

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Spiug31* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's nice Steve, please tell which fuses with which kit didn't make a difference for you 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_


----------



## IPodPJ

Yes, please tell us Steve. I need to know which ones I should definitely avoid.


----------



## yotacowboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There's an awful lot of dodging and weaving going on in this thread.

 I'll make a definitive statement. Fuses make no difference. The distance spanned by the element of the fuse is so short, and the connection so solid, it is totally transparent to the sound. All of the discussion of crimps in hoses and water pressure building up are fawlty analogies attempting to substitute magical thinking for facts.

 There are things that improve sound... fuses ain't one of them.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

Show us some definitive, objective, scientific proof. You've made your conclusion, let's see your data (which you believe proves that "Fuses make no difference"), and we'll each make our own conclusions. It's called peer review, and is integral to valid science!

 Show me some plots from a VNA running from DC to 100GHz!


----------



## dvw

Just out of curiosity, do anyone notice a difference between RoHS board and non-RoHS board.

 Just in case if you don't know what that means. In the last two years, the PC board and component companies are phasing out lead in the electronic equipment. And that's the RoHS standard. So right now there is a mix of RoHS and non-RoHS equipment on the shelf.

 Anyone notice any difference, I would think this would have even more impact than a fuse.

 I apologize for going off topic. But since I can't hear a difference, I just wonder if anyone can.


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yotacowboy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Show us some definitive, objective, scientific proof. You've made your conclusion, let's see your data_

 

I'm afraid you've got it backwards, pal. You can't prove a negative. It's up to the people who claim that fuses make a difference to offer proof. But they don't. All we get is dodging the issue and flowery descriptions of subjective impressions. If you want to prove something that makes no logical or scientific sense, you'll have to do better than that.

 Here is some plain old horse sense... For a normal speaker cable to have an audible impact, it needs to be very long. I'm not talking about a couple of feet, or even the length of your living room. I'm talking about the length of the block your house is built on... or more. Look at a fuse. It's barely longer than a hunk of solder on a circuit board. It can't make a difference, unless you resort to fairy tales about crimped pipes in your plumbing. A fuse is a fuse. It's like people who claim to hear a difference in iPod docks because the 1/8 inch cable that leads from the dock connector to the line out is solid silver. Yeah... pull the other one. And don't even get me started on power cords and power fuses.

 It isn't hard to see who's talking through their hat around here. Sales pitch is obvious. Too many people hear through their wallets. There are MUCH more important things in audio reproduction than fuses. But people don't want to think about those things, because they take work and analytical thinking, not just a credit card. Snake oil salesmen don't sell sound- they sell peace of mind. "Buy my product and you don't need to worry or think too hard."

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## JaZZ

In advance: I don't have to contribute anything (own experience, opinion, ideology) to the «fuse» topic. I just feel provoked by Bigshot's die-hard belief to be in possession of the fundamental audio truths.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It isn't hard to see who's talking through their hat around here. Sales pitch is obvious. Too many people hear through their wallets. There are MUCH more important things in audio reproduction than fuses. But people don't want to think about those things, because they take work and analytical thinking, not just a credit card. Snake oil salesmen don't sell sound- they sell peace of mind. "Buy my product and you don't need to worry or think too hard."_

 

Steve, you make yourself look like haunted by paranoia: You're convinced that people who occupy themselves with certain unexplained audio phenomena _must_ be sales-pitch victims (BTW, you're not alone). Let me tell you that I don't feel like this at all, and in terms of snake oil the snake-oil dealers haven't got much of my money. I'm simply fascinated by the subtleties in music reproduction and always form my own opinion by own experience. Honestly: I don't even watch TV commercials 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. 

 How about trying a different perspective? Which doesn't necessarily imply changing your mind about the subject if your belief dictates your approach to certain phenomena. Yes: keep in mind that your often-cited horse sense can in fact be used for other things than a neutral approach -- and in reality it is often used to support blindness and lack of imagination. (Your block-length speaker cable made me smile. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)

 I'm not planning to care about fuses -- because they just don't seem promising enough in terms of decisive sonic impact (I don't even hear a clear impact from power conditioners and power cords in my setup...). But in contrast to you I don't exclude the possibility that they may have a certain (probably minor) sonic impact to other people and in other setups. Physics don't dictate such an impossibility. Also, in a forum discussion among laymen nobody owes proof for nothing. And nobody knows the universal truth.
.


----------



## immtbiker

I can see how a poorly built fuse can degrade the system. After all, everything in it's path passes through it. I think that "audiophile grade" fuses, like the one's reviewed in Stereophile in the summer last year, can help to keep things going the way they were going and not stand in anything's way. 
 A top shelf fuse won't _improve_ your component (it's not a magical black box), it just won't hurt it like a dime store fuse can.

 Steve, your comments, especially if you have not taken the time to evaluate the theory yourself, and post the results, are usually the beginning of the end of a decent thread.


----------



## immtbiker

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Here is some plain old horse sense... For a normal speaker cable to have an audible impact, it needs to be very long. I'm not talking about a couple of feet, or even the length of your living room. I'm talking about the length of the block your house is built on... or more._

 

Not true. Completely discards the proven testing of time alignment.


----------



## QQQ

Quote:


 I can see how a poorly built fuse can degrade the system. 
 

It's either contact or no. No in between.


----------



## immtbiker

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *QQQ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It's either contact or no. No in between._

 

So you're saying, that with a fuse or a cable/wire, if there are a lot of impurities in the wire, it doesn't have any chance to modify (or degrade) the signal.

 None whatsoever, huh? It's either black or white with no shades of gray in between.

 I suppose that's why critically calibrated high end medical equipment use ceramic holders rather than glass. Signal interference isn't possible at all. They figure, what the heck, let's waste more money on a machine that saves lives just for the fun of it"???
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Gee, I guess my engineering training at Abbott Labs was just for kicks and you must be right QQQ. Perhaps you should be a EE certified trainer.


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *immtbiker* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I can see how a poorly built fuse can degrade the system. After all, everything in it's path passes through it. I think that "audiophile grade" fuses, like the one's reviewed in Stereophile in the summer last year, can help to keep things going the way they were going and not stand in anything's way. 
 A top shelf fuse won't improve your component (it's not a magical black box), it just won't hurt it like a dime store fuse can.
_

 

I do not think than any manufacturer, of the ones we know, will use defective fuses, or cheap fuses, for rare that it seems, they do cost pennies, but that is a cheap part, they all order the parts from respectable electronic stores, and fuses have to be tested and rated. IMO an audiophile fuse could be better done, but it will do the same and the function of a fuse is not to sound, is to let the current flow to a certain limit, and from that point on, it blows away....period...the audiophile fuse will do exactly the same at certain level is has to blow, otherwise is not a fuse is a danger!!!!


----------



## dvw

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *immtbiker* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So you're saying, that with a fuse or a cable/wire, if there are a lot of impurities in the wire, it doesn't have any chance to modify (or degrade) the signal.

 None whatsoever, huh? It's either black or white with no shades of gray in between.

 I suppose that's why critically calibrated high end medical equipment use ceramic holders rather than glass. Signal interference isn't possible at all. They figure, what the heck, let's waste more money on a machine that saves lives just for the fun of it"???
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Gee, I guess my engineering training at Abbott Labs was just for kicks and you must be right QQQ. Perhaps you should be a EE certified trainer._

 

Are you saying Abott lab's instrument use high end audiophile fuse? That's interesting. I need to check that out. When did they start doing that? I need to make sure I got the right one.


----------



## yotacowboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm afraid you've got it backwards, pal. You can't prove a negative. It's up to the people who claim that fuses make a difference to offer proof. But they don't. All we get is dodging the issue and flowery descriptions of subjective impressions. If you want to prove something that makes no logical or scientific sense, you'll have to do better than that._

 

I don't know if fuses make a difference. I'm asking you to prove that they don't to verify your conclusion.

 I'm not asking you to 'prove a negative'. I'm asking you to provide the results of any of your own research surrounding the topic at hand.

 If you don't have any scientifically valid and objective data that may suggest that fuses have absolutely no affect on an audio signal, then you, sir, have little business spouting your tired banter based on some misguided, misinformed, and closed-minded understanding of science, physics, and the natural phenomena surrounding and including us. You certainly sound like a "salesman" to me.


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yotacowboy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If you don't have any scientifically valid and objective data that may suggest that fuses have absolutely no affect on an audio signal, then you, sir, have little business spouting your tired banter based on some misguided, misinformed, and closed-minded understanding of science, physics, and the natural phenomena surrounding and including us. You certainly sound like a "salesman" to me._

 

That applies both ways, don't you think? Where is the scientifically valid objective data or evidence based on any test from the other field? What is *proved* nobody questions that...


----------



## yotacowboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That applies both ways, don't you think? Where is the scientifically valid objective data or evidence based on any test from the other field? What is *proved* nobody questions that...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Absolutely.

 And that is precisely why I could never conclude that "Fuses make no difference" or "fuses make a difference".

 It is also why I could conclude that "fuses make a subjectively noticeable difference to me in my rig".

 One of these conclusions requires me to actually listen to something...


----------



## immtbiker

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dvw* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Are you saying Abott lab's instrument use high end audiophile fuse? That's interesting. I need to check that out. When did they start doing that? I need to make sure I got the right one._

 


 Did I say that? *No, I did not*. If you are going to mock me, at least get your facts straight. Does anyone see that I wrote that? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Just a suggestion: Read first with a non-biased mind and then insert your foot into your mouth whilst typing.


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## colonelkernel8

Last I checked, there was no signal going through power, so how can you degrade that? What exactly are you degrading? It is either on or off (blown) with fuses, they are designed not to resist for the rated power, because if they do, they overheat and blow!


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## dvw

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *immtbiker* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 I suppose that's why critically calibrated high end medical equipment use ceramic holders rather than glass. Signal interference isn't possible at all. They figure, what the heck, let's waste more money on a machine that saves lives just for the fun of it"???
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Gee, I guess my engineering training at Abbott Labs was just for kicks and you must be right QQQ. Perhaps you should be a EE certified trainer._

 

This is what you said.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *immtbiker* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Did I say that? *No, I did not*. If you are going to mock me, at least get your facts straight. Does anyone see that I wrote that? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Just a suggestion: Read first with a non-biased mind and then insert your foot into your mouth whilst typing._

 

I am not mocking you. I am quoting exactly what you said. Highend medical equipment uses high end ceramic fuse because of signal interference? You have years of training at Abbott Lab.

 So your statement means Abbott lab use high end ??? fuse. If that's not what you mean, then you are saying if ceramic fuse is good enough for medical equipment then it's good enough for audio.

 I never try to be offensive. I just want to know.

 I am in telecom equipment. Power and ground noise are always problem especially in fiber optic pre and post amp. There are solutions, but solution is never fuse or power cord. Naturally I am curious.

 I appologize if you are offended.


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## immtbiker

_colonelkernel8_, when people in a forum start a post by saying things like "_last I checked_", or _"Erm_", or "_that's interesting because_...", or "_Here is some plain old horse sense_", then a conversation where people have varying amounts of belief or disbelief on a subject, no longer becomes a logical debate on a given subject and becomes a pissing contest that takes a perfectly good topic and "degrades" it's signal path. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I have noticed that this has become more common with people who have joined Head-fi in the last couple of years and seem to interject controversy for the sheer enjoyment of it wherever they go, rather than be a productive part of the debate. I also notice that is comes from younger people who enjoy this type of banter on other sites. 
 This is a new era for Head-Fi and I'm not sure it's one that the tenured people enjoy, which has made them stop posting valuable info to share with the community.
 Wheever some makes one of these statements, I check their posting history and see a pattern that is consistent to this. 

 Back to the topic. Why do you say there is no signal going through power when there is an AC signal that is a sine wave which is consistancy dependent to give a good signal to everything that follows. Isn't that why we have RFI filters in the input of amps and why power conditioning is an important part of "garbage in...garbage out"?

 We are not talking about $200 Sony A/V recievers with 7 channels of 100 w.p.c and every DSP function known to man for the same price as a good Teflon cap. AC fluctuation, or the lack of, is the foundation of any good power supply which is protected by a fuse.
 I will re-iterate that I stated, I *don't *believe that a fuse can make a component sound better, but lack of a clean connector and wire and a case that allows RFI or EMI to alter the flow of electricity can degade the stability and sound, just like lack of vibration control can.

 When I used Abbott Labs life saving medical equipment as an example, I never said it was audiophile fuses used, I said they are going to use the best fuses possible so there calibrated equipment stays consistent.

 We are all adults here (at least most of us), and a healthy debate can be had without cynicism and attack, myself included.


----------



## immtbiker

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dvw* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 So your statement means Abbott lab use high end ??? fuse. If that's not what you mean, then you are saying if ceramic fuse is good enough for medical equipment then it's good enough for audio.

 I never try to be offensive. I just want to know.

 I am in telecom equipment. Power and ground noise are always problem especially in fiber optic pre and post amp. There are solutions, but solution is never fuse or power cord. Naturally I am curious.

 I appologize if you are offended._

 

I am not offended and perhaps I reacted aggressively, but I did not say they used *High End Audiophile *fuses. I was just using the anaolgy that most military and medical equipment use fuses and Caps and resistors that are higher quality because it is more important regarding safety and consistency than our $89 pcdp's.
 Of course a 20 amp fuse should blow if it senses a short or power surge regardless of price structuring. But just like a IC or PC, if an impure wire is used then there are obstacles that inhibit the flow of electrons from getting where they should go, when they should go.
 Purity and good conductors are key to passing on the wave without obstruction. Isolation (using ceramic instead of glass) is vital in a component that can generate a lot of noise that messes with the signal. It can't make it better, it is not a power regenerator, it can only preserve what should be there in the first place.


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## dvw

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *immtbiker* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_

 I will re-iterate that I stated, I *don't *believe that a fuse can make a component sound better, but lack of a clean connector and wire and a case that allows RFI or EMI to alter the flow of electricity can degade the stability and sound, just like lack of vibration control can.
_

 

This makes sense. People can try a simple test. Use your cell phone and place it near a wire or an equipment. If the wire or equipment is poorly shielded, you'll hear a morse code like noise. Examples are my phone at work, poorly shielded throw away speaker and alarm clock radio.

 Most decently made equipment will not have these problem. What we found in most equipment (non-audio) is the pollution of the power supply came mostly from inside the chasis. But I am straying from the subject.

 Fuse is for protection. There should be no impact whatsoever if it's located outside the power supply. Power supply should clean up whatever noise in the power feed. However, there are other protection within the amplifier (non-headphone). Current limiting and thermal protection. These are done with transistor stealing the bias current. A tweaking of the heatsink/fan will be more effective for improved performance.


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## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *immtbiker* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So you're saying, that with a fuse or a cable/wire, if there are a lot of impurities in the wire, it doesn't have any chance to modify (or degrade) the signal._

 

You'd be hard pressed to find a fuse or a cable that has enough impurities to affect the sound. The regular old fuses and cables at Radio Shack perform just as well as audiophile cables and fuses. Why pay more?

 See ya
 Steve


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## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yotacowboy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't know if fuses make a difference. I'm asking you to prove that they don't to verify your conclusion._

 

Again, see... Logical Fallacy: Proving a Negative

 If I say that I have never run across a fuse that affected the sound, and that I know of no audio engineers who use audiophile fuses, does that answer your question?

 See ya
 Steve


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## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *immtbiker* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_We are all adults here (at least most of us), and a healthy debate can be had without cynicism and attack, myself included._

 

I like how the parenthetical comment disagrees with the main thrust of your sentence!

 See ya
 Steve


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## immtbiker

I'm not saying that I agree or disagree with this, but here is the article that I refered to that was published in Stereophile's September Issue.

 Again, for those who wish to wrongfully paraphrase me, *I do not agree nor disagree with this until I hear it for myself*:

Stereophile: HIFI-Tuning Fuses


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## immtbiker

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I like how the parenthetical comment disagrees with the main thrust of your sentence!

 See ya
 Steve_

 

I now see where you got your username from


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## yotacowboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Again, see... Logical Fallacy: Proving a Negative

 If I say that I have never run across a fuse that affected the sound, and that I know of no audio engineers who use audiophile fuses, does that answer your question?

 See ya
 Steve_

 

Steve,

 Wikipedia. Is that where you learn all this science stuff?

 Two questions:

 Do you have data which can prove that fuses do not alter an audio signal?

 Do you have any subjective opinions based on actual experience listening to any gear using "audiophile" fuses?

 If you don't have any scientifically valid and objective data that may suggest that fuses have absolutely no affect on an audio signal, then you, sir, have little business spouting your tired banter based on some misguided, misinformed, and closed-minded understanding of science, physics, and the natural phenomena surrounding and including us. You certainly sound like a "salesman" to me.

 You are selling closed-mindedness and prejudice.

 You have nothing to bring to this discussion.

 If you feel that you are "enlightening" young and inexperienced listeners as to the "Truth" of audio reproduction, you're methodologies are flawed... not to mention the Quixotic nature of any "Truth-seeking" in audio. Your pedagogy to "take my word for it, cause I know audio engineers" does little to reinforce inquisitive nature, or scientific method itself. If you feel that you are a savior for us idiots that choose to actually listen to audio gear, I'm sorry, but we don't need your help.


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## bigshot

Quote:


 If you feel that you are a savior for us idiots that choose to actually listen to audio gear, I'm sorry, but we don't need your help. 
 

You're right. No one needs my help to be an idiot. It's not the idiots that my comments are meant to benefit.

 I already answered your questions, but here's a simple test for you. Try bypassing the fuses completely and see if the sound is different.

 See ya
 Steve


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## JaZZ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I already answered your questions, but here's a simple test for you. Try bypassing the fuses completely and see if the sound is different._

 

Go test it yourself before spreading your wisdom! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




.


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## colonelkernel8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *immtbiker* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_colonelkernel8, when people in a forum start a post by saying things like "last I checked", or "Erm", or "that's interesting because...", or "Here is some plain old horse sense", then a conversation where people have varying amounts of belief or disbelief on a subject, no longer becomes a logical debate on a given subject and becomes a pissing contest that takes a perfectly good topic and "degrades" it's signal path. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I have noticed that this has become more common with people who have joined Head-fi in the last couple of years and seem to interject controversy for the sheer enjoyment of it wherever they go, rather than be a productive part of the debate. I also notice that is comes from younger people who enjoy this type of banter on other sites. 
 This is a new era for Head-Fi and I'm not sure it's one that the tenured people enjoy, which has made them stop posting valuable info to share with the community.
 Wheever some makes one of these statements, I check their posting history and see a pattern that is consistent to this. _

 

I apologize, I forgot to quote the post I was replying to so it did indeed seem like I was trying to ignite controversy. Though I will admit, my posts of late have been silly. Most of them have been in the two threads pertaining to fuses, can you guess why?


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## immtbiker

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *colonelkernel8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ Most of them have been in the two threads pertaining to fuses, can you guess why?_

 

Because you are going to soon become an entry level fuse MOT on Head-Fi?


----------



## sacd lover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You're right. No one needs my help to be an idiot. It's not the idiots that my comments are meant to benefit.

 I already answered your questions, but here's a simple test for you. Try bypassing the fuses completely and see if the sound is different.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

Bypass the fuses and potentially roast the gear or your home .... now that would be foolish.


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## immtbiker

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_...but here's a simple test for you. Try bypassing the fuses completely and see if the sound is different._

 

Let me get this straight, you are recommending to both n00Bs and knowledgeable people with technical backgrounds, to run AC components while bypassing a fuse? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 That about ends your validation as a competent person to discuss audio with.

 Seriously people, don't try this at home, it is a professional stunt that is only to be done on a closed course by people with expendable cash in one hand and fire extinguishers in the other.

 *EDIT- Writting at the same time as Sacd lover


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## Acoustic Chef




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## colonelkernel8

What a perfectly pointless analogy. Electricity does NOT equal water through pipes. Using that analogy, when electricity (water) hits a choke point, it increases pressure (like when you put your thumb over the end of the hose). So basically, when you hit a so-called "choke point" (talking about a fuse here, not a resistor), your voltage goes up and your current drops...not true. Besides, fuses aren't choke points, they are designed not to resist the current they are designed for.

 Simply put, you cannot think of electricity as water through plumbing.


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## slwiser




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## slwiser

I deleted what I said myself..


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## Acoustic Chef

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *colonelkernel8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What a perfectly pointless analogy. Electricity does NOT equal water through pipes._

 

Right, cuz if it did it wouldn't be an analogy, and I don't remember bringing up voltage and amperage anywhere.


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## Vul Kuolun




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## colonelkernel8

Then what exactly is the image trying to portray? The scenario I used was to prove that water wasn't a good metaphor for electricity.


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## Acoustic Chef

See, there we go. Vul Kuolun got it! And like MJ's face... DISTORTION


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## Vul Kuolun

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_See, there we go. Vul Kuolun got it! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Hooray! Did i win the Virtual Dynamics 9V-batteryclip for my Cmoy?


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *colonelkernel8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What a perfectly pointless analogy. Electricity does NOT equal water through pipes. Using that analogy, when electricity (water) hits a choke point, it increases pressure (like when you put your thumb over the end of the hose). So basically, when you hit a so-called "choke point" (talking about a fuse here, not a resistor), your voltage goes up and your current drops...not true. Besides, fuses aren't choke points, they are designed not to resist the current they are designed for.

 Simply put, you cannot think of electricity as water through plumbing._

 

Well to be 100% accurate while to place the thumb on the hose what you increase is the speed, the pressure in both scenarios is the same, cero, the pressure in an open flow of fluid is always cero...


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## Acoustic Chef

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Vul Kuolun* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hooray! Did i win the Virtual Dynamics 9V-batteryclip for my Cmoy? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

Hardy har har 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Holly crap guys! What an exciting and thrilling game of catch the edited post while you can.. Thanks, was fun but gota go..


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## dvw

I did a quick search on HIFI-tuning fuse. It is made in Germany and has no UL listing. This might not even be safe or legal to sell.

 It uses silver as an element. Silver is not known as a fuse element.

 So if safety is a concern, better make sure these "fuse" have the certification, timing correct. For example, most IC will blow up quickly if the fuse does not blow fast enough. A very slow blow is then the same as no fuse.

 All fuse companies provide a datasheet and certification and I couldn't find a single one for HiFi-tuning. For $60 a pop, I think they could afford the cost of certification unless their manufacturing process is not up to par.


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## immtbiker

Again, I'm not pushing fuse upgrading, but the HI-FI's go for $30 a pop, not $60.


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JaZZ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Go test it yourself before spreading your wisdom!_

 

I have wired speakers direct when I didn't have a fuse handy. Care to take a guess how it sounded?

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## bigshot

I just got through the thread, and I realized we're talking about AC fuses, not speaker fuses. That's even more absurd that audiophile speaker fuses. It doesn't matter how much these cost or whether or not they make a difference in the sound if they aren't UL listed. HeadFi shouldn't be allowing anyone to advertise stuff that hasn't passed the required legal tests for safety in the US- especially something as important as a fuse.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## JaZZ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have wired speakers direct when I didn't have a fuse handy. Care to take a guess how it sounded?_

 

This forum isn't made for guesses, but for reports and reviews. Which are still better and more useful than mere beliefs and ideologies. So care to report your findings without drawing final conclusions from them how audio works?
.


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## colonelkernel8

Ok, Ill guess for you Jazz, it sounded exactly the same as with a fuse. I would think you would pick up on that given bigshot's position on the matter.


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JaZZ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This forum isn't made for guesses, but for reports and reviews._

 

Who woulda thunk it?! I thought it was where people made stuff up and then tried to write dense scientific explanations to convince people they didn't just make it up!

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *colonelkernel8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ok, Ill guess for you Jazz, it sounded exactly the same as with a fuse._

 

That's a bingo! You can pick up your prize from Virtual Dynamics.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## Acoustic Chef

Nope no prizes for you, I heard a big improvement. But like I said I bridged, which still proves fuses suck.


----------



## colonelkernel8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's a bingo! You can pick up your prize from Virtual Dynamics.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

Oh really?

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Acoustic Chef* 
_Nope no prizes for you, I heard a big improvement._

 

Awww, really? Why? I guess you have to believe in cables already in order to win them 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Seems a bit counter-productive to me.

 I also enjoyed Virtual Dynamics' solicitation to me via PM (prior to their MoT status of course) offering me store credit on a $50 Signal Cable towards a $457 David 2.0 Digital IC. A steal.


----------



## JaZZ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *colonelkernel8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ok, Ill guess for you Jazz, it sounded exactly the same as with a fuse. I would think you would pick up on that given bigshot's position on the matter._

 

Sure. But what I'd like to see from him is a bit more modesty: Just reports of his experiences instead of ideological generalizations based on his famous horse sense. In fact all I've read from Bigshot on Head-fi were ideological and cynical posts -- not one single simple experience report.
.


----------



## yotacowboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JaZZ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_... Just reports of his experiences instead of ideological generalizations based on his famous horse sense._

 

That's way too much for Steve to handle.


----------



## Acoustic Chef

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JaZZ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sure. But what I'd like to see from him is a bit more modesty: Just reports of his experiences instead of ideological generalizations based on his famous horse sense. In fact all I've read from Bigshot on Head-fi were ideological and cynical posts -- not one single simple experience report.
._

 

Ya the poor guy must be lonely. Who wants to join in on a group hug?


 And colonel, offer still stands. Maybe you'll believe if you try a real cable. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I've given away many to none believers. If you're willing to give a cable an honest listen and offer your honest opinion you could consider these Davids free, but I'm not seeing you as a candidate, sorry. Mabie when you’re a bit older.


----------



## colonelkernel8

Yes Acoustic Chef, your maturity really shines through; the wisdom you share with each post is just astounding. Do you write novels?

 Considering its physically impossible for a cable to alter (or improve as some claim) a digital signal (assuming the cable is shielded of course), I am satisfied in knowing that your $457 cable is no better than my $50 cable. Why else would you be able to do all these half-price sales and offer free products? Oh right, there is probably only about $50 worth of parts in them...

 But I'll offer this, send me a digital David (or any other of your digital RCA cables) and I'll try it and post an honest review. On top of that, I'll run some tests on it (with the aid of some computer/electrical engineering professors), see if it does the job better than any other cable out there (probably compare it to the Signal Cable and one of those ultra cheap RCA's from a composite cable). Unlike your "university" study, I'll take some input from folks here on how the tests should be run. Of course, should I be proven wrong, then I'll convert to the realm of the "believer".


----------



## gotchaforce

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *colonelkernel8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Oh really?



 Awww, really? Why? I guess you have to believe in cables already in order to win them 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Seems a bit counter-productive to me.

 I also enjoyed Virtual Dynamics' solicitation to me via PM (prior to their MoT status of course) offering me store credit on a $50 Signal Cable towards a $457 David 2.0 Digital IC. A steal._

 

Wow $50 off $457 digital IC?? that means they were only making a profit of $375! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 cant believe you passed up that deal..


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## immtbiker

I believe this thread has run it's course. 
 It has gotten personal and way out of hand.

 This is a no-win debate.


----------

