# Audio-gd Phoenix balanced headphone amp.



## Currawong

A few people, myself included, asked Kingwa, the owner of Audio-gd, if any of his amps would work with balanced headphones. A few months ago, when I first asked this, his reply was that he could put two C2C amps in a large box. However, his next mention of this was that he'd finished designing a balanced amp, based on the circuit of one of his pre amps, the C3. That was quick!

 Since he's been emailing people asking for opinions and the discussion is now starting to show up in other threads, I figured I'd start a new thread on it.

 This is certainly one unusual amp. Here's the info page, with not much on it at the moment except these pictures. The dimentions are roughly that of a longer Compass/C2C x2.














 [size=xx-small]In case anyone is thinking that Audio-gd needs its own forum on here for all these threads popping up, yes, I've already suggested that.[/size]


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## haloxt

I'm rather speechless at the pace they are inventing new audio equipment... is their company in some kind of time bubble where 1 year passes for every 1 month in the outside? I'd definitely like to see a audio-gd forum, I'm predicting an atomic explosion of audio-gd fanatics on head-fi any moment now.

 Curra, remember Ultrasone's CEO in that NAMM Ultrasone video going wild over how good the balanced Pro 900's sounded with their new balanced amp H-101? I think he might get a heart atk if he ever gets a chance to hear the Phoenix :[ (still <3 Ultrasone headphones tho 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 just <3 audio-gd more).


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## tim3320070

I can't think of any company of any kind that reacts to consumer wants like Kingwa does. Completely refreshing. It just seems how things should be done, doesn't it? Build it and they will come, sourt of.........
 I have ordered, sight unseen and unheard, his S1 intergrated, C2C amp and DAC-19SEMK3 based on everyones experiences here on Head-Fi and gut feeling (it's only money). He tried to talk me out of such a large order (not so large IMO) without trying some of it first. I was so impressed by this reaction that I just told him to send it as ordered.
 We'll see but I have no reservations.


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## dBs

I am thinking of a balanced set up down the road. I think I will follow =D


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## Chu

What exactly is "data-in"? Looks like a serial port.


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## bobsmith

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tim3320070* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I can't think of any company of any kind that reacts to consumer wants like Kingwa does. Completely refreshing. It just seems how things should be done, doesn't it_

 

I agree completely. I got turned on to Audio-gd after reading through the entire Compass thread. I ended up ordering a Reference 1, and Kingwa was a joy to work with. He didn't try to push me to buying the more expensive choice (even though thats just what I ended up doing 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ) but instead tried to find out my needs. He was also very accommodating for customization.


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## glitch39

wow! balanced SS amp. now that would give competition to a B22!


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## gevorg

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *glitch39* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_wow! balanced SS amp. now that would give competition to a B22!_

 

Or Headamp GS-X


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## insyte

I see my upgrade path is becoming clearer


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## LostOne.TR

Without knowing much about it, I don't see how it'd be competition for anything. Am curious though as to what the design will be like.

 looks like those might be rca inputs on the bottom. might be hard for some rca cables to have a split that wide


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## sandchak

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ I'd definitely like to see a audio-gd forum, I'm predicting an atomic explosion of audio-gd fanatics on head-fi any moment now._

 

As far as I know, I think he is planning to be one of the Head-Fi premier sponsors from May, and have his own (Audio GD) forum out here, it will be nice as he can directly communicate with us on his forum about his gears..


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## insyte

Has anyone told Kingwa that it would be great to have an Audio-GD SS amp with pro and normal bias outputs for stax stats?


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## Chu

Is it odd that one of the features that really would seal this for me is the remote control? Headphone amp as a pre-amp without one just doesn't feel right.

 The splitting of the RCA/XLR cables is a pretty big deal. I don't know many cables that could use RCA-4 without literally ripping them apart.

 Also, I really hope the remote would be of a nice quality. It would be a shame to have an incredibly well built amp and sharp looking aesthetics, cheapened with a remote control made of the cheapest always-feels-oily plastics you get with most low-end gear. But I'd prefer this to the alternative (none).


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## Shahrose

Audio-GD is really blowing up. I'm really impressed by Kingwa's blistering responses to community requests. This amp will very likely be on my to buy list.


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## sandchak

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Chu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Also, I really hope the remote would be of a nice quality. It would be a shame to have an incredibly well built amp and sharp looking aesthetics, cheapened with a remote control made of the cheapest always-feels-oily plastics you get with most low-end gear. But I'd prefer this to the alternative (none)._

 

I have one of his amp, that comes with a remote.. it depends on ones taste, but to me its a classic, its crafted out of Aluminum, looks like a little chassis itself.. so you can be sure its not going to be one of those cheap plastic types, and since Phoenix is going to be top end HP amp model, I expect something even better than the remote control I have ( although I doubt anything can be better) ..
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Something like his CD7 remote (Aluminum again, but it would be re-designed)






 This one is the type I have - pics don't do justice at all..


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## glitch39

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LostOne.TR* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Without knowing much about it, I don't see how it'd be competition for anything._

 

true enough. but for those who have dealt with Kingwa and have listened to his offerings, there is a lot of expectations. and he has yet to disappoint me (or others on this board)

 I would liken his amps to LD - lots of bang for the buck

 Kingwa is SS while Sword has tubes.


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## insyte

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sandchak* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This one is the type I have - pics don't do justice at all..





_

 

I like the look of this remote


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## sandchak

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *insyte* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I like the look of this remote 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

You will love the feel of it in your hands, it goes very well with the killer amp ! well actually you can kill someone with the remote too !!..


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## santacore

I would definitely be interested in a balanced amp by Kingwa. I like my C-2C so much that I wouldn't hesitate to upgrade if the price wasn't crazy. Good stuff, and good service. Refreshing!!


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## Aleatoris

This thing is looking to be a monster! I'd hate to be the delivery guy who has to bring it up to you folks who are living in apartments.


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## Drosera

Ah, the cat's allowed out of the bag! Now where am I going to find a 1000 USD. Can I place an IC for one of my kidneys here, or should that be in the cables and tweaks for sale forum? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LostOne.TR* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_looks like those might be rca inputs on the bottom. might be hard for some rca cables to have a split that wide_

 

I don't really know of any decent RCA cables that even have a split, they are always separate.


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## ExtraNice

Ok ok. Forgive me ignorance, but what is a balanced amp?

 Advantages?
 Disadvantages?


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## Currawong

Since the volume control is electronic, the data port would connect the volume control and selector in the power supply box to the headamp box. It seems the power is connected separately between the two boxes, so I guess there will be three cables between them.

 I don't know what RCA cables people use, but all the decent ones I've seen are 2 separate cables. Only the cheap Ratshack ones are joined. On the Ref 1, the connections are very far apart, about a foot!

 As far as I understand, balanced amps are really two separate amps, one driving each side of a pair of headphones. The result is supposed to be a significant improvement in performance with many headphones. In the C2C thread, someone compares it to a Headamp Balanced Desktop and describes the difference in sound between balanced and unbalanced use. The only disadvantages is that you have to re-cable your headphones with a 4-pin XLR plug, or 2x 3-pin XLR plugs.


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## insyte

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sandchak* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You will love the feel of it in your hands, it goes very well with the killer amp ! well actually you can kill someone with the remote too !!..
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Oh good, I knew it. It looks very sturdy from the pic 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 --------

 I noticed that there are two serial port outs on the volume control box. Im just curious what is the 2nd one for.


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## Drosera

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ExtraNice* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ok ok. Forgive me ignorance, but what is a balanced amp?

 Advantages?
 Disadvantages?_

 

Read here and the articles linked.


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## ExtraNice

thanks!


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## Chu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't know what RCA cables people use, but all the decent ones I've seen are 2 separate cables. Only the cheap Ratshack ones are joined. On the Ref 1, the connections are very far apart, about a foot!_

 

I really hate to start that little debate here, but Ratshack gold series are a lot better than people give it credit for. There are a couple other cables that "bond" the pairs (Grado Signature Series) but looking through some sponsor's sites they appear to be a really rare beast after all.

 It's sort of a moot point now anyways considering they don't make them anymore, having sold their soul to Monster 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Still strikes me as a little odd. If the connectors have to be separated (guessing they might if it's literally two C2C boards in the chassis) identical right/left sections might be more natural than center symmetry, but it'll probably be a little ackward no matter what the final details are.

 btw, I'd love it if the unit came with a remote meeting their previous standards. It's a lot more than I expected considering some of the absolute crap I've seen with some really expensive pre-processors/receivers.

 Wish I could afford $1K right now. I really wondering what the final price will be after the promo period, on paper it looks like it might be competing with SS amps way above this price range.

 (By the way, what is the unit on those drawings? 250mm is ~9" which seems a little small for the width of the front panel (unless the pictures of the C2C/Compass make it seem a lot bigger than it really is), 235cm would be about 7 feet long.)


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## Drosera

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Chu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Still strikes me as a little odd. If the connectors have to be separated (guessing they might if it's literally two C2C boards in the chassis) identical right/left sections might be more natural than center symmetry, but it'll probably be a little ackward no matter what the final details are._

 

It's probably the best way to do it with those RCA connectors so far apart, because that keeps the signal paths within the amp the shortest.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Chu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_(By the way, what is the unit on those drawings? 250mm is ~9" which seems a little small for the width of the front panel (unless the pictures of the C2C/Compass make it seem a lot bigger than it really is), 235cm would be about 7 feet long.)_

 

The unit is mm. The actual measurements are: 80 (H) X 250 (W) X 350 (L) (again in mm). One box is about the size of the Compass (a few cm deeper).


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## Pyriel0

I was waiting for the c2c vs shanling review and now this pops up .....


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## 8140david

I have been talking with Kingwa about his pre-amplifiers, like the C3SE and the C39.
 I was wondering whether I could use them as headphone amps too.
 He said that should work fine, for headphones that are 50 ohms or higher impedance:
 "C3SE use the BU2 output modules, it can drive upon 50 ohms HP, but if low than 50 ohms, will don't very good. If you want to drive low impedance HP, you maybe want to replace the output modules."
 So if you don't have a HP amp, just buy a C3SE!


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## sandchak

Quote:


 So if you don't have a HP amp, just buy a C3! 
 

The C3SE preamp which costs USD1260??..


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## 8140david

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sandchak* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The C3SE preamp which costs USD1260??.._

 

Precisely! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			










 (or just buy a C3 second-hand on the Chinese market 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)

 But by the way, how much will the Phoenix cost?


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## sandchak

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *8140david* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Precisely! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	









 (or just buy a C3 second-hand on the Chinese market 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)

 But by the way, how much will the Phoenix cost?_

 

Around USD1000.. thats what the website says..


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## Drosera

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *8140david* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Precisely! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	









 (or just buy a C3 second-hand on the Chinese market 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)_

 

Hmmm, Chinese eBay. Now there's a challenge.


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## 8140david

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Drosera* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hmmm, Chinese eBay. Now there's a challenge. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Indeed!
 There's actually a section of Audio-gd's Chinese forums where Chinese customers sell Audio-gd's products second-hand. Still a challenge for many of us, poor speakers of the English language, I agree.


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## Currawong

I gather the Phoenix will be based on the C3. If you look at the C8 pre-amp, you can see in a rear shot the same rear panel layout as the Phoenix. I think if HD-800s run much better balanced than single-ended, and they stand up well enough against my Stax, I might have to consider a Phoenix myself.


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## Hopstretch

This sounds interesting. Counting on you, Currawong, to take the first one for the HD800 team!


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## csroc

It really amazes me how quickly Kingwa can whip up an idea and of the quality and completeness of the concept considering the pace he works at.


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## 8140david

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I gather the Phoenix will be based on the C3._

 

Yes, that's what Kingwa says.

 Question: would the C3SE have enough power to drive correctly headphones Beyer DT-880 with 250 ohms?
 I am considering changing the cable of the DT-880 to a pair of XLR cables, so that I can plug it on the XLR output of the C3SE.
 Should that work well?
 Kingwa encourages me to try, but before doing so, I'd like some other input, on whether it's a good idea to so change my DT-880?


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## Currawong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Hopstretch* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This sounds interesting. Counting on you, Currawong, to take the first one for the HD800 team! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Lol! It's lucky my Stax rig is on indefinite loan or there'd be no chance of it happening at all. Though, knowing how things go, I'll probably end up with both Stax and a dynamic rig with the HD-800s by the end of the year.


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## Drosera

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I gather the Phoenix will be based on the C3. If you look at the C8 pre-amp, you can see in a rear shot the same rear panel layout as the Phoenix._

 

I did discover that one feature seems to be lacking from the Phoenix, and that's CAST-output. I would figure that could be a useful feature if you would use it as a preamp.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Lol! It's lucky my Stax rig is on indefinite loan or there'd be no chance of it happening at all. Though, knowing how things go, I'll probably end up with both Stax and a dynamic rig with the HD-800s by the end of the year._

 

Wow, I'm seriously thinking about becoming a English teacher in Japan too. Seems like you can make a good living that way.


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## sandchak

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Drosera* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I did discover that one feature seems to be lacking from the Phoenix, and that's CAST-output. I would figure that could be a useful feature if you would use it as a preamp._

 

Oh I did not notice that, that would have been very useful feature indeed..


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## Mik

Looks really promising. It's 60mm longer than the C2C though. Might have trouble fitting that on my desk.


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## Mik

To make this truly overkill, I wonder if Kingwa could add a unity gain/home theatre bypass option for each input. I was considering buying a C3SE as an upgrade from my Emotiva preamp. A Phoenix might make more sense.


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## Drosera

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Mik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Looks really promising. It's 60mm longer than the C2C though. Might have trouble fitting that on my desk. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

"We need a bigger desk!"

 I don't think anything from Audio-gd's more high-end equipment was meant to be put on a desk. HiFi quality doesn't come in small (or light) packages.


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## 8140david

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Drosera* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I did discover that one feature seems to be lacking from the Phoenix, and that's CAST-output. I would figure that could be a useful feature if you would use it as a preamp._

 

Then, the Phoenix would look more and more like a C3!
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Indeed, Kingwa confirmed that the C3 should make a very good HP amp, though he hasn't tried it used in that way. (The C3 should have no problem driving headphones with 50 ohms impedance or higher, like 250 ohms. For lower impedance, like 16 ohms, one should change a module in the C3.)

 If in the next few weeks I can modify my DT-880 to have XLR outputs (I have no DIY experience
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




), then I will use the C3 as a HP amp, and report back!


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## senn_liu

doesn't it strike the rest of you as amusing that one of the first things kingwa has revealed about the phoenix is the panel design? maybe he's been following the compass thread closely 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 also, think about the date...i suspect kingwa is more humorous than we know ahaha.


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## Drosera

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *senn_liu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_doesn't it strike the rest of you as amusing that one of the first things kingwa has revealed about the phoenix is the panel design? maybe he's been following the compass thread closely 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

You can rest assured that Kingwa is following every Audio-gd thread here closely.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *senn_liu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_also, think about the date...i suspect kingwa is more humorous than we know ahaha._

 

Wouldn't that be a great/terrible joke. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But this 'joke' has been going on for some time already on the Audio-gd forum, so in all probability the mythical bird will really rise from its ashes.


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## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *8140david* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Then, the Phoenix would look more and more like a C3!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Indeed, Kingwa confirmed that the C3 should make a very good HP amp, though he hasn't tried it used in that way. (The C3 should have no problem driving headphones with 50 ohms impedance or higher, like 250 ohms. For lower impedance, like 16 ohms, one should change a module in the C3.)

 If in the next few weeks I can modify my DT-880 to have XLR outputs (I have no DIY experience
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




), then I will use the C3 as a HP amp, and report back!_

 

How many Watts does the C3 output into what Impedance? A Premap is not the same as an Amp. I have a 2 Watt output Headamp, it can swing large amounts of current. It makes a lot of headphones really sound sweet because of that(amongst other things). The same thing with the B22 amp, Class A, swinging large current(relatively speaking).

 A premap and an amp are different animals. I think some amps can make good preamps, but not all preamps make good amps.

 .


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## insyte

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *senn_liu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_also, think about the date...i suspect kingwa is more humorous than we know ahaha._

 

I thought that too initially but I already knew that he was going to release a balanced amp when i asked him via email


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## 8140david

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How many Watts does the C3 output into what Impedance? A Premap is not the same as an Amp. I have a 2 Watt output Headamp, it can swing large amounts of current. It makes a lot of headphones really sound sweet because of that(amongst other things). The same thing with the B22 amp, Class A, swinging large current(relatively speaking).

 A premap and an amp are different animals. I think some amps can make good preamps, but not all preamps make good amps._

 

Indeed, I would have thought so.
 But Kingwa does say it should work fine...
 Otherwise, Kingwa doesn't communicate really very precise information about the measured abilities of his amps. (Maybe because his products are changing so quickly!) So unless Kingwa can give some input about it, there is no available answer to your question.


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## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *8140david* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Indeed, I would have thought so.
 But Kingwa does say it should work fine...
 Otherwise, Kingwa doesn't communicate really very precise information about the measured abilities of his amps. (Maybe because his products are changing so quickly!) So unless Kingwa can give some input about it, there is no available answer to your question._

 

But you WOULD need to answer those questions, if you wanted to use a Preamp as an amp. I think once you get those answers, you'll realize it is a Preamp and not an amp. I'm not saying you can't plug in some headphones and listen to it, I'm just saying an amp is an amp, and a Preamp is a premap.

 .


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## moonboy403

Hmm...

 $1400 for HD800
 $1390 for Reference One 
 $1000 for Phoenix amp

 Total: $3790

 I gotta start planting some $$ in my back yard so they can grow in time before the Phoenix and HD800 are released!


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## 8140david

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_But you WOULD need to answer those questions, if you wanted to use a Preamp as an amp. I think once you get those answers, you'll realize it is a Preamp and not an amp. I'm not saying you can't plug in some headphones and listen to it, I'm just saying an amp is an amp, and a Preamp is a premap._

 

"An amp is an amp": thanks for the news!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 A few posts back in this thread, I asked about people's opinion since I was not completely clear about Kingwa's answers.
 But as said, he has now confirmed the C3 should drive very well a 250 ohms HP.
 So one thing to try is indeed to plug the HP in the C3 and listen!
 The simplest and cheapest way would be to start RCA (building a 0.8m long jack-to-2-RCA adaptator, to fit the C3 rear's panel).


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## Drosera

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *moonboy403* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hmm...

 $1400 for HD800
 $1390 for Reference One 
 $1000 for Phoenix amp

 Total: $3790

 I gotta start planting some $$ in my back yard so they can grow in time before the Phoenix and HD800 are released!_

 

I would advise you to use plenty of fertilizer, because those prices for the Phoenix and the Ref One are both 'promotional' and will probably go up in the near future.


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## dreamwhisper

so many inputs and ouptuts...
 how much does this cost?


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## insyte

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *moonboy403* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hmm...

 $1400 for HD800
 $1390 for Reference One 
 $1000 for Phoenix amp

 Total: $3790

 I gotta start planting some $$ in my back yard so they can grow in time before the Phoenix and HD800 are released!_

 

Ouch 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 You forgot to factor in the balanced cable for the HD800 and good ICs 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Plus the transport for the Ref 1


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## csroc

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *senn_liu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_doesn't it strike the rest of you as amusing that one of the first things kingwa has revealed about the phoenix is the panel design? maybe he's been following the compass thread closely 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I certainly see similarities to the ideas from my Compass design (created with the help of many on this forum). I suppose we are seeing a new design philosophy start to creep through Audio-gd?


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## dreamwhisper

If only it converted SE to balanced like the Headroom Ultra

 EDIT: I guess some crossfeed wouldn't hurt either, tho it's hardly as necessary


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## Currawong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dreamwhisper* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If only it converted SE to balanced like the Headroom Ultra_

 

I don't get what you mean by this. How does an amp "convert SE to balanced"? A connection to an amp or to headphones is either balanced or it isn't.


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## Pricklely Peete

Using the CAST outs from the RE1 to the Phoenix CAST ins...eliminates the need for pricey IC's...at least that's one bright spot cost wise (if you go with a RE1 DAC).


 Peete.


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## deadie

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't get what you mean by this. How does an amp "convert SE to balanced"? A connection to an amp or to headphones is either balanced or it isn't._

 

I posed this question to Headroom as well, when I purchased their Balanced desktop amp.

 They told me that a signal fed through the amp's RCA stereo inputs is "converted" to balanced, ultimately outputting a balanced signal / balanced drive to the headphones.


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## deadie

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dreamwhisper* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If only it converted SE to balanced like the Headroom Ultra

 EDIT: I guess some crossfeed wouldn't hurt either, tho it's hardly as necessary_

 

If you're using balanced headphones, wouldn't the Phoenix amp have to convert the original SE RCA input to balanced? Unless I'm missing something?


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## Drosera

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *deadie* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If you're using balanced headphones, wouldn't the Phoenix amp have to convert the original SE RCA input to balanced? Unless I'm missing something? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Same puzzlement here. I can't imagine what the Phoenix should do more than it already does.


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## insyte

So does this mean I can use a non-balanced dac for the phoenix and still have a "fully" balanced output to a balanced headphone?


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## dreamwhisper

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *insyte* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So does this mean I can use a non-balanced dac for the phoenix and still have a "fully" balanced output to a balanced headphone?_

 

thanks,
 this is what I mean

 I wonder if we could talk to the maker and see if this is possible.
 He seems very ambitious as well receptive to the needs of his customers.


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## Drosera

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dreamwhisper* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I wonder if we could talk to the maker and see if this is possible.
 He seems very ambitious as well receptive to the needs of his customers._

 

I think you need to get clear what you mean exactly by "fully balanced". Put it in a schematic or something, showing at what point and how in the amplification you want the signal to become balanced, because if you can't make it clear to yourself and others here, you certainly can't make it clear to Kingwa either.


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## dreamwhisper

I don't understand why it's not good enough just to say:
 the same unbalanced input and balanced output that the Headroom 
 Balanced Ultra Desktop has

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Headroom.com* 
_The HeadRoom BUDA has both balanced and single-ended analog inputs on the rear panel. The single-ended inputs got through an internal "phase-splitter" to create the inverted signal ready for balanced drive._


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## Drosera

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dreamwhisper* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't understand why it's not good enough just to say:
 the same unbalanced input and balanced output that the Headroom 
 Balanced Ultra Desktop has_

 

So what you actually mean is division in-, and amplification of 4 separate signal paths with 4 distinct circuitry pathways, 2 for each channel, where one is the inverted signal of the other. If you at least put it like that, there's a chance people will understand it.
 You can propose it, it's not quite clear to me if it is already part of the design of the Phoenix. But don't forget that the Phoenix uses CAST technology which already goes a long way towards preventing the signal degradation that balanced design is trying to prevent as well.

 Another reason for putting it more clearly and elaborately, is that you are likely to run into a bit of a language barrier. Better to use a schematic as an example, such as here. (I wish they made them in somewhat better quality.) Schematics are the universal language of EE's.


----------



## insyte

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dreamwhisper* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't understand why it's not good enough just to say:
 the same unbalanced input and balanced output that the Headroom 
 Balanced Ultra Desktop has_

 


 The definition of "fully balanced" according to headroom means getting a balanced signal from a balanced DAC. Not just an amp that makes the inverted signal from a non-balanced DAC.

 We don't have specs yet, but looking at the back panel, it might seem that the phoenix will have a "phase splitter" similar to headroom's balanced amp, if it will take in non-balanced input. It would be a plus [for those slowly upgrading] if it does take in non-balanced input too


----------



## Currawong

A balanced signal between components is different from a balanced headphone. The former, from my limited understanding, uses the ground pin/line to "balance" the signal lowering distortion for long runs of cable. No such thing is involved with balanced headphones, which simply don't share a common signal return as do single-ended headphones.


----------



## Drosera

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_A balanced signal between components is different from a balanced headphone. The former, from my limited understanding, uses the ground pin/line to "balance" the signal lowering distortion for long runs of cable. No such thing is involved with balanced headphones, which simply don't share a common signal return as do single-ended headphones._

 

To make things more confusing still, I think we're risking mixing three types of 'balanced':

 1. Balanced signal transmission between components
 2. Balanced discrete amplification circuitry (of which the fully balanced ß22, which Dreamwhisper apparently owned, might be the best example)
 3. Balanced headphone output


----------



## insyte

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Drosera* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_To make things more confusing still, I think we're risking mixing three types of 'balanced':

 1. Balanced signal transmission between components
 2. Balanced discrete amplification circuitry (of which the fully balanced ß22, which Dreamwhisper apparently owned, might be the best example)
 3. Balanced headphone output_

 

So does the phoenix fulfill #2 and #3 even if #1 is not fulfilled [e.g. from a non-balanced DAC]?


----------



## Drosera

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *insyte* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So does the phoenix fulfill #2 and #3 even if #1 is not fulfilled [e.g. from a non-balanced DAC]?_

 

Yes, that's the question at hand. I'm sure it does #3, but whether it does #2, I don't know. You can be sure that the amplification circuitry is discrete, but I'm not sure if it's balanced as well.

 No matter what it does, I'm also quite sure it's independent of the input.


----------



## sandchak

Ok guys, I see some new pictures in Kingwa's website regarding the Phoenix.. looks interesting..


----------



## Currawong

The power supply looks more complex than the headphone amp! It's that way too in the Ref 1, which is mostly power processing circuitry.


----------



## sandchak

You beat me Curra, I was just about to say that, although I haven't seen the REF1 in front of me.. but looking at the pics.. Yes.

 In fact it looks to me closer to a smaller version of the separate regenerated power supply which comes with the likes of Preamp C-8SE..


----------



## Drosera

I see 4 discrete paths. So, going on that visual cue, I would say it does #2 as well. It looks like a true fully balanced amplifier.

 I want it! My Reference One needs a companion!


----------



## Mik

May as well post the board pics here too:


----------



## dreamwhisper

So discrete means that there are no opamps in the signal path?

 I remember reading somewhere that the Headroom Ultra Desktop has opamps in the signal path...


----------



## Pricklely Peete

No opamps or caps in the signal path from what I understand of Kingwa's explanations thus far. 

 Sandchak is correct it's a scaled down version the C8SE power supply design which is a take on the Levinson No32 Ref preamp PSU design.

 I agree Dro...this amp should mate perfectly with the RE1 !!! I will certainly find out soon enough when the Phoenix is ready from shipment in May (hopefully).

 Peete.


----------



## adamjames37

I will try to clear up the confusion about whether or not the Phoenix is fully balanced and will convert SE outputs to balanced to the best of my knowledge. Feel free to correct me if you think I'm wrong.

 The Phoenix is a fully balanced discrete headphone amplifier which consists of two separate amplifiers per channel for a combined total of four separate discrete amplifiers. It does not matter what kind of input signal you use (RCA, XLR, CAST) you will always get balanced drive to your headphones. *This is of course only possible if your headphones are terminated in either single 4-pin XLR or dual 3-pin XLR and connected to one of the balanced outputs of the Phoenix.* If your headphones only terminate to a single-ended output (TRS) and connect to the single-ended output of the Phoenix, then you will not get the benefits of balanced drive. 

 The Reference 1 for example is a fully balanced DAC and actually contains two separate DAC's per channel for a total of four discrete output stages. If this particular DAC were to be hooked up to the Phoenix either through XLR or CAST inputs (RCA will not output a balanced signal) then each separate amplifier inside the Phoenix will be paired with its own dedicated DAC section. The benefit of this would be a (most likely) significant increase in detail. If the Phoenix is connected to an unbalanced DAC then each DAC output stage (one for left and one for right) will be split and shared among the two amplifiers per channel of the Phoenix. 

 This means that no matter what you will receive a balanced driven signal from the Phoenix as long as your headphones are connected to one of the balanced outputs. In my opinion balanced drive will make the biggest difference and connecting a balanced source should be secondary (as in it's better to have a balanced amp with an unbalanced DAC VS. the other way around). Using a balanced DAC is basically a way of feeding the amplifier a more detailed signal but it's the amp that will create the main sound signature you will hear. This is of course assuming you have a fairly neutral sounding DAC as a tube DAC for example can have a great impact on the final sound signature. 

 By the way I love that Kingwa has included both single 4-pin XLR and dual 3-pin XLR as well as a single ended output. Awesome!

 Hope this helps.


----------



## qwertgfdsa

I ask Kingwa some questions:

 1. Could Phoenix drive K1000? What is the power output of Phoenix ?

 Ans:





> I plan to install the 4pins socket on the Phoenix.
> I think think technology to drive K1000 is no problems.But I design it sound monitor, so it depend on the source QC and the personal sense.
> 
> It can output max 3W on 120 ohms.


2. Will there be a black, rather than silver, Phoenix?

 Ans:





> I think at first will only silver, but if lot customers ask black, I can make black.
> Don't need preorder, I think can offer at May.


 I want a black one....so those who love black, please send emails to Audio-gd


----------



## haloxt

Silver has the benefit of contrasting nicely with the black background of the LCD screen.

 Here's a picture from the C-3SE page to show what black case would look like, notice the glare on the case when there's light.






 I like how this silver preamp looks ^^

http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/pre/P1/P11.jpg


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *adamjames37* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I will try to clear up the confusion about whether or not the Phoenix is fully balanced and will convert SE outputs to balanced to the best of my knowledge. Feel free to correct me if you think I'm wrong.

 The Phoenix is a fully balanced discrete headphone amplifier which consists of two separate amplifiers per channel for a combined total of four separate discrete amplifiers. It does not matter what kind of input signal you use (RCA, XLR, CAST) you will always get balanced drive to your headphones. *This is of course only possible if your headphones are terminated in either single 4-pin XLR or dual 3-pin XLR and connected to one of the balanced outputs of the Phoenix.* If your headphones only terminate to a single-ended output (TRS) and connect to the single-ended output of the Phoenix, then you will not get the benefits of balanced drive. 

 The Reference 1 for example is a fully balanced DAC and actually contains two separate DAC's per channel for a total of four discrete output stages. If this particular DAC were to be hooked up to the Phoenix either through XLR or CAST inputs (RCA will not output a balanced signal) then each separate amplifier inside the Phoenix will be paired with its own dedicated DAC section. The benefit of this would be a (most likely) significant increase in detail. If the Phoenix is connected to an unbalanced DAC then each DAC output stage (one for left and one for right) will be split and shared among the two amplifiers per channel of the Phoenix. 

 This means that no matter what you will receive a balanced driven signal from the Phoenix as long as your headphones are connected to one of the balanced outputs. In my opinion balanced drive will make the biggest difference and connecting a balanced source should be secondary (as in it's better to have a balanced amp with an unbalanced DAC VS. the other way around). Using a balanced DAC is basically a way of feeding the amplifier a more detailed signal but it's the amp that will create the main sound signature you will hear. This is of course assuming you have a fairly neutral sounding DAC as a tube DAC for example can have a great impact on the final sound signature. 

 By the way I love that Kingwa has included both single 4-pin XLR and dual 3-pin XLR as well as a single ended output. Awesome!

 Hope this helps._

 

It does and thanks for those further details......

 I'll just add that the CAST output from the RE1 to the CAST input on the Phoenix should negate any influence (positive or negative) cabling may have on the sound vs regular IC's be it XLR or SE'ed between source and amp. The advantage is keeping the signal in the current domain and having the Phoenix do the I/V conversion at it's output stage (to the headphones).

 A balanced system to me means an entire chain from source to amp to cans. Feeding the Phoenix a SE'ed source signal is, in my mind, a half measure. Obviously the perfect companion to this amp would be the RE1, barring that a fully differential source of some type would be the next best thing for it. IMO at least.

 Peete.


----------



## dreamwhisper

Yeah no doubt.

 I'd like to see this in black too
 and I wouldn't mind crossfeed, but I it's not 100% necessary.
 ...wow I'm demanding
 maybe I'll send him an e-mail.

 EDIT: Is the Ref1 available in silver? I want them to be matching, however it turns out haha


----------



## Mik

Do we know what the differences will be between the Phoenix and the C8SE or C3SE (besides case dimensions and appearance)? I'm looking to upgrade my preamp and if I can get balanced headphone outputs thrown in for free that's a nice bonus.


----------



## Drosera

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dreamwhisper* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yeah no doubt.

 I'd like to see this in black too
 and I wouldn't mind crossfeed, but I it's not 100% necessary.
 ...wow I'm demanding
 maybe I'll send him an e-mail.

 EDIT: Is the Ref1 available in silver? I want them to be matching, however it turns out haha_

 

Kingwa doesn't want to do crossfeed for the foreseeable future, he really doesn't. (Although I don't want crossfeed, I would actually be very interested what a mind like Kingwa's would come up with if he tried to design one.)

 I agree, I would prefer it in black too. There's a lot to be said for those jetblack blocks of Audio-gd aluminium.

 And no, as far as I know the Ref One doesn't come in silver.


----------



## punk_guy182

I'm sorry for intruding in your conversation guys, but what is crossfeeding?
 Has anyone tried the Panther? Does it look good for the price? Kingwa won't cut me a deal if I buy both Compass and Panther.
 Regarding the Phoenix, what are those Data inputs and outputs? This amp has so many inputs and outputs that I can't figure out. Also, CAST technology works with balanced XLR plugs and cables right?


----------



## Drosera

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *punk_guy182* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm sorry for intruding in your conversation guys, but what is crossfeeding?_

 

Crossfeed

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *punk_guy182* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Has anyone tried the Panther? Does it look good for the price? Kingwa won't cut me a deal if I buy both Compass and Panther._

 

See my PM for info on the Panther. I think the deal is already there. The Compass is priced very close to the cost of parts and labour and the price of the Panther has just been lowered quite a bit as well.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *punk_guy182* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Regarding the Phoenix, what are those Data inputs and outputs?_

 

They are for communicating the volume and selector information to the amplifier module. Basically, data communication between the two modules.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *punk_guy182* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This amp has so many inputs and outputs that I can't figure out. Also, CAST technology works with balanced XLR plugs and cables right?_

 

No, CAST works with a special SATRI connector. You can get the cables from Kingwa. (You don't need very fancy cables for CAST, because the technology keeps the signal in the current domain and because of this is far less susceptible to interference and degradation.


----------



## punk_guy182

Thanx Dro! you're the man!


----------



## arcer63

It is crazy that the lengths of these threads is increasing so fast. People really seem to be interested in audio-gd. I just found out about them in early february. Im buying a compass soon too(few days i think). Im really excited.


----------



## insyte

Also just saw the pics, and the Panther Power Amp


----------



## Mik

I just asked Kingwa about the differences between the Phoenix and the C3 and C8 preamps. He said the sound quality of the Phoenix would be the same as the C3. The differences are that the Phoenix also has headphone outputs and has a different case design which may not look as appropriate amongst other large audio components in a speaker setup. That doesn't bother me at all. Phoenix is cheaper than the C3 and has headphone outputs. That's like getting a balanced headamp for free with a preamp. I think Phoenix is going to be my new preamp. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Kingwa also confirmed that the Phoenix will be available in silver/black.

 For those interested, between the C3 and C8, Kingwa said the amp module is the same. The power supply is different, but also to note that the C8 power supply runs quite hot at 60C which is something to consider if you're looking to buy one.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Glad to see the chassis color choice ! Black is my favorite for Audio-gd stuff. IMO at least, others mileage may vary.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Peete.


----------



## Drosera

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Glad to see the chassis color choice ! Black is my favorite for Audio-gd stuff. IMO at least, others mileage may vary.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Peete._

 

Yup, looks stylish (and slightly menacing) and combines well with the subtle blue led.


----------



## Zorlac

1. So what happened to the C-2D? I thought that was truly balanced?

 2. I hope Kingwa makes the fuses replaceable by the enduser. I really dont want to have to send my unit back if a fuse ever blows. Also, I want to try out some audiophile fuses


----------



## Drosera

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Zorlac* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_1. So what happened to the C-2D? I thought that was truly balanced?_

 

The C-2D may have been balanced, but only had single ended output. I think it was discontinued because Kingwa believes he can make something better now.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Zorlac* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_2. I hope Kingwa makes the fuses replaceable by the enduser. I really dont want to have to send my unit back if a fuse ever blows. Also, I want to try out some audiophile fuses 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Apparently the Audio-gd fuse is designed in such a way that something needs to go very wrong for a long time before it will really blow. Kingwa has said that in such a case, the unit needs to be returned to be repaired. But perhaps with decent DIY skills and some helpful hints from Kingwa, you could also do it yourself.
 I don't think replacing it with a different fuse is an easy option though. (Keep in mind that Kingwa pays a lot of attention to creating a good power supply for his equipment, so I don't actually think it's easy to improve on it or the fuse it has.)


----------



## adamjames37

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It does and thanks for those further details......

 I'll just add that the CAST output from the RE1 to the CAST input on the Phoenix should negate any influence (positive or negative) cabling may have on the sound vs regular IC's be it XLR or SE'ed between source and amp. The advantage is keeping the signal in the current domain and having the Phoenix do the I/V conversion at it's output stage (to the headphones).

 A balanced system to me means an entire chain from source to amp to cans. Feeding the Phoenix a SE'ed source signal is, in my mind, a half measure. Obviously the perfect companion to this amp would be the RE1, barring that a fully differential source of some type would be the next best thing for it. IMO at least.

 Peete._

 

I absolutely agree. Using CAST output from DAC to amp is the way to go (even though I have never heard such a setup) since it's a technically superior method of transferring signal between equipment when compared to any other connection type. I'd love to hear a fully balanced CAST connected headphone setup!

 I also agree that a fully balanced system means the entire system is of a balanced nature. This would obviously be ideal but will be quite costly in the end. 

 I've often wondered (and this may be dependent on the particular DAC you are using) if the dual DAC outputs per channel of a balanced DAC are fused together when output through a single-ended connection like RCA. We know that the Phoenix is capable of splitting a single-ended connection among the two amps per channel, but will a balanced DAC make use of all four DAC sections when connected through a single-ended RCA output? If not, then it would make sense to purchase the Phoenix first and then a balanced DAC like Reference 1 later. I only mention this because I believe the Phoenix/Reference 1 combo is probably going to be the dream system of many, however, will be quite expensive. For those looking to upgrade in increments it makes sense to go with the Phoenix first (technically speaking as I know it hasn't been released yet) if running a balanced DAC to a single-ended amp will not make use of all four DAC sections. 

 If anyone knows whether or not the Ref 1 makes use of all four DAC sections when output through RCA please chime in! 

 By the way Zorlac, to answer your question about the C-2D. I believe the C-2D is an older headphone amp that wasn't marketed in North America. Also, from the pictures I have seen it looks like the C-2D accepts balanced input but only offers a single-ended TRS output on the front. I'm also pretty sure that the Phoenix will be superior to the C-2D.

 Here's the link to the pictures.

C-2D Savely Arrived in Australia[ºÎÇì»ªDIY¼¼ÊõÂÛÌ³]


----------



## adamjames37

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Drosera* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The C-2D may have been balanced, but only had single ended output. I think it was discontinued because Kingwa believes he can make something better now._

 

Looks like you beat me to it


----------



## Drosera

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *adamjames37* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've often wondered (and this may be dependent on the particular DAC you are using) if the dual DAC outputs per channel of a balanced DAC are fused together when output through a single-ended connection like RCA. We know that the Phoenix is capable of splitting a single-ended connection among the two amps per channel, but will a balanced DAC make use of all four DAC sections when connected through a single-ended RCA output? If not, then it would make sense to purchase the Phoenix first and then a balanced DAC like Reference 1 later. I only mention this because I believe the Phoenix/Reference 1 combo is probably going to be the dream system of many, however, will be quite expensive. For those looking to upgrade in increments it makes sense to go with the Phoenix first (technically speaking as I know it hasn't been released yet) if running a balanced DAC to a single-ended amp will not make use of all four DAC sections. 

 If anyone knows whether or not the Ref 1 makes use of all four DAC sections when output through RCA please chime in!_

 

Okay, I've opened up my Ref 1 to answer your question (it wasn't clear on the photographs on the Audio-gd site) and it does look like the RCA output is only connected to one half of both output sections. I assume that means that it isn't benefiting at all from the balanced nature of the output sections. (Now I fully understand why Kingwa said the Reference One will only show 60% of its potential through RCA output.)

 However, there is still a lot to be said for "source first". It may make sense to start out with a Phoenix amp and only later buy the Ref 1, but if you have anything less than a good source already, there isn't much point in getting an amp of the level of the Phoenix either.


----------



## rds

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_In case anyone is thinking that Audio-gd needs its own forum on here for all these threads popping up, yes, I've already suggested that.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Yeah, I think Audio-gd needs their own _sponsor_ forum, to start a library of all the free advertising they get.


----------



## Currawong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rds* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yeah, I think Audio-gd needs their own sponsor forum, to start a library of all the free advertising they get._

 

Yes, that's what I meant. As far as I know it's going to happen.


----------



## insyte

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Drosera* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Okay, I've opened up my Ref 1 to answer your question (it wasn't clear on the photographs on the Audio-gd site) and it does look like the RCA output is only connected to one half of both output sections. I assume that means that it isn't benefiting at all from the balanced nature of the output sections. (Now I fully understand why Kingwa said the Reference One will only show 60% of its potential through RCA output.)_

 

Very interesting finding


----------



## adamjames37

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Drosera* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Okay, I've opened up my Ref 1 to answer your question (it wasn't clear on the photographs on the Audio-gd site) and it does look like the RCA output is only connected to one half of both output sections. I assume that means that it isn't benefiting at all from the balanced nature of the output sections. (Now I fully understand why Kingwa said the Reference One will only show 60% of its potential through RCA output.)

 However, there is still a lot to be said for "source first". It may make sense to start out with a Phoenix amp and only later buy the Ref 1, but if you have anything less than a good source already, there isn't much point in getting an amp of the level of the Phoenix either._

 

You opened up your Ref 1 just to check?? Well.. Thanks! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 This was kind of my suspicion. Maybe we should ask Kingwa to confirm this?

 I completely agree a good source is extremely important and even more so when using a high-end amplifier like the Phoenix. I couldn't imagine connecting a Phoenix to a source such as an on-board PC sound card... YUCK! 

 I'm most definitely going to purchase a Phoenix when released and will also purchase a Ref 1 at some point. I recently purchased a DAC-19 since I wont be able to afford a Phoenix + Ref 1 anytime soon (either or) so I've put my funds aside until the release of Phoenix. 

 I chose the Phoenix over the Ref 1 because I figured Phoenix would offer a more dramatic upgrade when connected to a decent single-ended DAC than the Ref 1 would make when connected to a single-ended amp like the C-2C (my main amp right now) since the Ref 1's potential would probably be held back so much. I figured I might as well make the topic public so that it may help others wanting to follow an incremental upgrade path.

 I guess we'll just have to wait until Phoenix is released to start doing comparisons. I'd love to know how much a difference the Ref 1 connected to Phoenix with balanced CAST versus unbalanced RCA will make. I know of at least one person who will have lots of equipment to do comparisons with 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. 

 Until then I guess it's all just specumalation...


----------



## Drosera

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *adamjames37* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You opened up your Ref 1 just to check?? Well.. Thanks! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

Well, that and to switch it to NOS-mode. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (Which is really interesting by the way, it actually acquires all the characteristics of a true NOS DAC. I love that DSP-1!)

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *adamjames37* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This was kind of my suspicion. Maybe we should ask Kingwa to confirm this?_

 

If you want the details on it, I guess you should. The way I gather how this works is that with RCA output you're only using 4 of the 8 PCM1704 chips, but I believe those 2 chips per channel are also configured in a form of balanced mode where any information in the output not identical to both chips gets rejected. (I think....but better to ask Kingwa about this.)

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *adamjames37* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I completely agree a good source is extremely important and even more so when using a high-end amplifier like the Phoenix. I couldn't imagine connecting a Phoenix to a source such as an on-board PC sound card... YUCK! 

 I'm most definitely going to purchase a Phoenix when released and will also purchase a Ref 1 at some point. I recently purchased a DAC-19 since I wont be able to afford a Phoenix + Ref 1 anytime soon (either or) so I've put my funds aside until the release of Phoenix._

 

Obviously not an onboard soundcard, but I think even something like a basic NAD or Marantz cd player would make the financial outlay for the Phoenix a bit of a waste of money. The DAC-19 should work fine though. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 And should be a really interesting upgrade path, getting to know the PCM1704s inside out. (I know at least one other person who is doing this.)

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *adamjames37* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I chose the Phoenix over the Ref 1 because I figured Phoenix would offer a more dramatic upgrade when connected to a decent single-ended DAC than the Ref 1 would make when connected to a single-ended amp like the C-2C (my main amp right now) since the Ref 1's potential would probably be held back so much. I figured I might as well make the topic public so that it may help others wanting to follow an incremental upgrade path._

 

You know, I really can't figure out which of these two possibilities (Ref 1 or Phoenix) would be the bigger upgrade. The Ref One is a truly brilliant DAC, even with RCA output, but then again there's Curra's observation that he didn't really notice much difference between the Ref One balanced or SE through the C-2C, which suggest again that the C-2C can also definitely be improved upon.

 I for one am looking forward with great anticipation to all of the possible comparisons. C-2C, Phoenix, DAC-19 and Ref One, there's so many possibilities in connecting all of these. Should be great fun and a wonderful voyage.


----------



## ttnl

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *adamjames37* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 I'm most definitely going to purchase a Phoenix when released and will also purchase a Ref 1 at some point. I recently purchased a DAC-19 since I wont be able to afford a Phoenix + Ref 1 anytime soon (either or) so I've put my funds aside until the release of Phoenix. 
_

 

Can someone with experience with DAC19 give me some impression please? I will order a DAC19MK3 when it is available, but would like to have some opinion about the DAC before ordering. Thanks.


----------



## Yikes

Before yesterday I didn't even know that Audio-gd even existed. I suppose that's what I get for being a snob and only visiting the High-End forum. The Phoenix looks like it will be one helluva product. It combines most of the features that I desire in a high performance amp and at a fracction of the price that I would expect, so I asked Kingwa to put me on the list for one (he said that he'll email me when available). 

 It's always risky buying sight un-heard, but at this price I figure it's worth a shot. I seriously doubt that it's good enough to use as the preamp in my reference system, but I'm sure it'll be more than good enough to replace my bedroom preamp (Aragon 24K which has no remote) and it's an inexpensive entry into Balanced headphone amplification.

 Now all I have to do is get off my behind and recable my AKG K701's. I have 6 meters of Crystal cable to use, but I've been putting it off for over a year.


----------



## Drosera

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Before yesterday I didn't even know that Audio-gd even existed. I suppose that's what I get for being a snob and only visiting the High-End forum. The Phoenix looks like it will be one helluva product. It combines most of the features that I desire in a high performance amp and at a fracction of the price that I would expect, so I asked Kingwa to put me on the list for one (he said that he'll email me when available). 

 It's always risky buying sight un-heard, but at this price I figure it's worth a shot. I seriously doubt that it's good enough to use as the preamp in my reference system, but I'm sure it'll be more than good enough to replace my bedroom preamp (Aragon 24K which has no remote) and it's an inexpensive entry into Balanced headphone amplification._

 

Welcome to the club! Yes, it's hard to see what can go wrong with a product like this. I'm really looking forward to your impressions of the Phoenix. Even more so because, in the end, Audio-gd is a company that's still starting out in the headphone amp area. It should be very valuable to have more listening impressions of their headamps from people who have heard a lot of good headphone amps. You might be able to provide a few pointers as to certain aspects specific to headamps where their product could still be improved on.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Now all I have to do is get off my behind and recable my AKG K701's. I have 6 meters of Crystal cable to use, but I've been putting it off for over a year._

 

Ha, they're Dutch! This is really OT, but could you tell which type of cable you're using from them? I'm curious because I'm looking for some kind of übercable myself to get the most out of my K500's.


----------



## Yikes

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Drosera* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ha, they're Dutch! This is really OT, but could you tell which type of cable you're using from them? I'm curious because I'm looking for some kind of übercable myself to get the most out of my K500's._

 

It's Crystal Cable Piccolo. I'm the US importer of Siltech. I have re-cabled a set of Sony MDR SA-5000 with Siltech with great results. The Siltech however is too stiff so the headphones suffered ergonomically. The Piccolo is finer and much more flexible and since it actually uses the same Silver-Gold as a lot of Siltech I figured it's better suited.

 Do a search for Sony SA-5000 (or maybe SA5000) and Siltech and you might find some threads where I wrote about my SA5000's. Most people balk at re-cabling with wires that cost more than the headphones


----------



## Drosera

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It's Crystal Cable Piccolo. I'm the US importer of Siltech. I have re-cabled a set of Sony MDR SA-5000 with Siltech with great results. The Siltech however is too stiff so the headphones suffered ergonomically. The Piccolo is finer and much more flexible and since it actually uses the same Silver-Gold as a lot of Siltech I figured it's better suited.

 Do a search for Sony SA-5000 (or maybe SA5000) and Siltech and you might find some threads where I wrote about my SA5000's. Most people balk at re-cabling with wires that cost more than the headphones 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Thanks for this. Unfortunately the pictures of your recabled Sony seem to have disappeared.
 Valuable information about headphones and 9 Volt batteries too.


----------



## squall343

newest picture from audio gd


----------



## insyte

Can't wait to see a finished product


----------



## scootermafia

Argh, I'd think about buying one of the DSP'd audioGDs like really seriously but only 1 digital input is a deal breaker for me. They need to put the 3 inputs on all of their gear.


----------



## squall343

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *scootermafia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Argh, I'd think about buying one of the DSP'd audioGDs like really seriously but only 1 digital input is a deal breaker for me. They need to put the 3 inputs on all of their gear._

 

you can actually ask kingwa to custom make one


----------



## scootermafia

Oh god...yeah, he'd probably paint a walrus on the side if I paid him enough, that man has the means to create a totally new design from nothing in a matter of weeks, adding different inputs is child's play for him.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *scootermafia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Argh, I'd think about buying one of the DSP'd audioGDs like really seriously but only 1 digital input is a deal breaker for me. They need to put the 3 inputs on all of their gear._

 

I'm not following you here. You are referring to the DACs, correct? Not the Phoenix? Also, if you are inquiring about multiple switched inputs on the DACs, he'll put those on. He'll then tell you what that switch does to the SQ. Been there, done that! 

 He uses digital relay switching on his premaps I think. He "should" incorporate that Capability into the DACs. Like the Darwin Source Selector by Twisted Pear.

 .


----------



## les_garten

This is/was going to be my next amp. Has anybody heard what's going on with it? Usually Kingwa updates project websites like a Demon. He hasn't touched the Phoenix site in a month or so. Looks like delays.

 .


----------



## punk_guy182

He must be so busy testing those Compases being ordered.


----------



## Yikes

Has anyone heard anything from Kingwa concerning the Phoenix?

 The last I got was on April 29th:

  Quote:


 [size=small]We are testing the Phoenix.[/size]
[size=small]If it is available ,we will show this news on our net.[/size]
[size=small]Thanks for your attention.[/size]
[size=small]Best regards.[/size]
[size=small]Cherry[/size] 
 

I don't particularly like the line "If it is available", I for one will be mightily disappointed if it doesn't make it into production. I just received my tax refund and was hoping to buy a Phoenix. Hmmm which will be available 1st the Phoenix or the HD-800's?


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Has anyone heard anything from Kingwa concerning the Phoenix?

 The last I got was on April 29th:


 I don't particularly like the line "If it is available", I for one will be mightily disappointed if it doesn't make it into production. I just received my tax refund and was hoping to buy a Phoenix. Hmmm which will be available 1st the Phoenix or the HD-800's? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

Here is what I received today after asking the same question a number of times:

 Dear Les,
 I have finished the test and adjust the PCB boards.
 But at first I make wrong, the classis box too complicated so the manufacturer can't make the classis box to me in time.
 Kingwa

 .


----------



## Yikes

Sounds like the circuit is done only the chassis remains. I'm ready to order mine today.

 impatiently waiting.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sounds like the circuit is done only the chassis remains. I'm ready to order mine today.

 impatiently waiting._

 

Yeah, me too! And a few others I know of.

 To borrow a phrase from another review, this will be the biggest no brainer in the History of the Earth out there in the $1000 bracket. I suspect it will own the SS amp niche.

 That's my wish for it.

 .


----------



## Townyj

This amp has definitely caught my eye. Being referred to as Neutral by Kingwa is a plus for my cans. Could be a future buy


----------



## XXII

Wow, the price is really tempting...I wonder how it compares to the GS-X or Beta22...

 Is there anywhere where I can read more about this CAST technology?


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *XXII* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wow, the price is really tempting...I wonder how it compares to the GS-X or Beta22...

 Is there anywhere where I can read more about this CAST technology?_

 

Both good questions....can you read Japanese ? Audio-gd has a link to some info on CAST or Satri but it's a Japanese page...I've been trying to find something in English that is more in depth than the marketing speak at the Krell web site. So far no luck.

 Peete.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *XXII* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wow, the price is really tempting...I wonder how it compares to the GS-X or Beta22...

 Is there anywhere where I can read more about this CAST technology?_

 

Seems like good competition for a B22.

 .


----------



## Currawong

I don't claim to understand CAST, nor be an engineer, but analogue audio signals are produced with fluctuations in voltage. Because equipment in general is sensitive to voltage fluctuations in various ways, it has to be very high quality so that the signal isn't distorted. The types of connectors, cable and even the type of solder used can cause tiny changes in the sound. However, if the signal is instead converted to fluctuations in _current_, then most of the issues are abolished, so the signal can maintain its form, even if you have long lengths of cable or complex electronics.


----------



## IPodPJ

I'm tempted.


----------



## XXII

Is the Phoenix going to be at CanJam?? Not that I'm going but at least they'll be some impressions.


----------



## Drosera

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *XXII* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is the Phoenix going to be at CanJam?? Not that I'm going but at least they'll be some impressions._

 

I doubt that. Certainly since Kingwa apparently hasn't even got the right casing for them yet. There will be other Audio-gd gear at CanJam: Compass, C-2C, Reference One. So at least people will be able to get a taste of Audio-gd.


----------



## Yikes

I believe Kingwa has received a revised enclosure (The first was too complicated). The circuit is finalized, or as Kingwa says 
  Quote:


 [size=small][size=small]We have finished the test and adjust.[/size]
[/size] 
 

[size=small][size=x-small]He also stated that he is installing the boards into the revised enclosure to see how everything works.[/size]

[size=x-small](I believe that he might be a bit over optimistic but he wrote) [/size]

[size=x-small]Drumroll................ [/size]

  Quote:


 [size=x-small][size=x-small][size=small]I thin maybe can for ship at early of Jun.[/size]
[/size][/size] 
 

[size=x-small][size=x-small][size=x-small]At this point he obviously isn't going to start shipping in early June, but he just might Start Taking Orders by then. I'm fully prepared to take one for the team and order one. It would be nice to see pictures of the finished product and a complete functional and technical description, but I am excited that it's nearing completion.[/size][/size]
[/size][/size]


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I believe Kingwa has received a revised enclosure (The first was too complicated). The circuit is finalized, or as Kingwa says 

 [size=small][size=x-small]He also stated that he is installing the boards into the revised enclosure to see how everything works.[/size]

[size=x-small](I believe that he might be a bit over optimistic but he wrote) [/size]

[size=x-small]Drumroll................ [/size]


 [size=x-small][size=x-small][size=x-small]At this point he obviously isn't going to start shipping in early June, but he just might Start Taking Orders by then. I'm fully prepared to take one for the team and order one. It would be nice to see pictures of the finished product and a complete functional and technical description, but I am excited that it's nearing completion.[/size][/size]
[/size][/size]_

 

Great News! Nice just to have some sort of timeline. Thanx for the update!

 .


----------



## Pyriel0

I wonder if I could scrap the I/V output stage in the buffalo dac and have the signal go directly from the es9008 chip to the phoenix through the cast input. That would be one mean combo.


----------



## sandchak

Tan ta tan... more pics up on Audio GD website..

 I never thought I would buy this...


----------



## IPodPJ

Damn, I'm placing my order. For $1000, you can't beat it with a stick. It's a thing of beauty and the moment I know it's available is the moment I put my Opera up for sale. And look at all those inputs!! What kind of inputs are those on IN 3?


----------



## scootermafia

Now I'm kicking myself for buying a single ended DAC...


----------



## XXII

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *scootermafia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Now I'm kicking myself for buying a single ended DAC..._

 

You can use the Phoenix with a single ended DAC...


----------



## fdhfdy

Didn't think I would place a order on this amp but now I change my mind, so crazy!


----------



## sandchak

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ What kind of inputs are those on IN 3?_

 

Think its CAST !!


----------



## IPodPJ

Maybe those IN 3 inputs are for CAST? Dunno?

 Yikes,
 I guess maybe doubting the shipping timeline of early June was premature. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Looks like it just might happen after all.

 And I don't know about the rest of you, but I plan on winning the Reference One DAC at CanJam! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Although I already have a really excellent DAC, one could use more!

 Now I'll just have to recable my headphones.

 And I hope there is a way to turn off the display on the amp for two reasons: 1) If you're trying to relax in a dark room, that glow looks like it could wake up the dead, and 2) cleaner signal.


----------



## squall343

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *XXII* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You can use the Phoenix with a single ended DAC..._

 

but if use single ended dac with phoenix then not really balanced?


----------



## sandchak

I dont think the display is as bright as it looks - dunno !.. but they say they :

  Quote:


 It has blue LED display, we don't use the VFD screen , because the VFD screen will transmit RF and effect the signal circuits . 
 

I should be getting my CD7 in a couple of days, and I think it uses the same kind of display.. I'll be more sure about it then..


----------



## IPodPJ

Damn, Kingwa responds to e-mails fast!! I just sent him an e-mail a few minutes ago with some questions. I think you would all like to see the response in case you are wondering the same things I am. I asked him about power output for certain impedances, mentioned I would like it to sound neutral, time it would be ready for delivery, and if both black and silver were available (but he didn't answer that one). The power output is the most important to me as most SS amps don't provide enough power at high impedances. This amp is going to pack one hell of a whallop!!!


 Dear Phil,
 Phoenix is different from normal amp.
 26 ohm: 1000MW
 62 ohm: 2500MW
 100 ohm: 3000MW
 300 ohm: 1800MW
 600 ohm: 900MW
 ANd Phoenix sound maybe different to normal amp, it apply CAST inside, so it sound will much monitor, if the source or record bad, it can show you what their bad.
 I very recognition QC of this amp, and now we still lack back of workers, so I think can ship at mid/end of Jun.
 You don't need pay now.
 Just place order, while we ready shipping , will tell you make payment.
 But I wish you can think about the monitor sound if can suit you.
 Kingwa


----------



## XXII

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *squall343* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_but if use single ended dac with phoenix then not really balanced? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

From the Audio-gd website:

 "When fed with RCA signal, Phoenix can change the RCA signal to exact XLR signal at first, then change to current signal to feed CAST modules."


----------



## scootermafia

I guess it's not that big of a deal as I can always upgrade, and supposedly the Phoenix simply "converts" it to an XLR signal, although I'm not sure how well that'd work compared to with a truly balanced DAC. I feel dumb for getting a Havana over the top end AudioGDs.


----------



## sandchak

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Damn, Kingwa responds to e-mails fast!!_

 

Talking about quick response :

  Quote:


 Dear Sandeep,
 Not very bright.
 It same with our CD7 bright.
 Maybe my photos mistake it too bright.
 Kingwa


----------



## squall343

check out the sexy internal shot

http://www.audio-gd.com/enweb/Phoenix/Phoenix-1.htm









 only the first 10 unit is 1000USD, the rest is 1330USD

 better act fast for those interested


----------



## IPodPJ

More from Kingwa:


 Dear Phil,
 I think Phoenix can sound exactitude, because it is monitor.
 And RCA input is a little bad than XLR input. Though RCA input can output XLR to HP.
 Now only black box .
 The silver box is too difficult to build, so not available.
 Kingwa


----------



## IPodPJ

Holy crap, look at the transformers in that thing!

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *squall343* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_check out the sexy internal shot

http://www.audio-gd.com/enweb/Phoenix/Phoenix-1.htm









 only the first 10 unit is 1000USD, the rest is 1330USD

 better act fast for those interested_


----------



## Yikes

It's what I get for sleeping, links are DEAD.


----------



## sandchak

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It's what I get for sleeping, links are DEAD._

 

here it is :


----------



## fdhfdy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_More from Kingwa:


 Dear Phil,
 The silver box is too difficult to build, so not available.
 Kingwa_

 

Why silver one is hard to build? seems it's not that simple as color changing.


----------



## IPodPJ

Well I just placed my order for one. He will not ask for payment until it is ready to ship. So I'm at least one of the ten. You better get in quick. This amp will sell and it will probably beat anything under $3k. But that's just assumption of course. But knowing what is inside this box and getting it for only $1k, including a remote??? Come on now.


----------



## sandchak

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well I just placed my order for one. He will not ask for payment until it is ready to ship. So I'm at least one of the ten. You better get in quick. This amp will sell and it will probably beat anything under $3k. But that's just assumption of course. But knowing what is inside this box and getting it for only $1k, including a remote??? Come on now._

 

Yes its great, *and I think Kingwa does not want people to hurry to place the order to be among the first 10, so he has decided to keep the price of Phoenix at USD1000 till the 30th of June*..

 Well it gives me some time to decide - if I haven't decided as yet !!


----------



## IPodPJ

I just asked him if he can make me a switch to turn off the display so it won't light up a dark room. He said he will try but it would have to be on the rear. I said, "Fine!" This guy will do anything. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 This amp is going to be killer. I assume everyone here wants their unit to sound neutral?


----------



## Yikes

For some reason my bedroom laptop was not downloading the Audio-GD website. My office system is getting it fine.

 I'm a little annoyed that Kingwa has limited the introductory price to the first ten. There is a chance that since he posted the availability of it while I was sleeping that I won't be in the 1st ten, and I have been emailing them since April with my desire to purchase one. Kingwa said that he would email me when it becomes available. Instead it's posted on the website while I'm sleeping and guess what, still no email.

 Funny - While I was typing this I received an email from Kingwa, he doesn't want to unduly rush people so he has extended the introductory price until the end of June. He's already updated the website. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 And it seems that while I was replying to Kingwa and checking out the website sandchak beat me to it.


----------



## Yikes

[size=large]*Ordered*[/size]

 There goes the tax refund.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





 Now I'm going back to sleep for a couple of hours. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz


----------



## haloxt

If you don't want the switch you could always cover the LED display. I decided to do it for the power light on my compass so I could sleep and listen in complete darkness.

 Btw I think black looks nicer than silver now, that's a really nice looking box.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Just to clarify all of Kingwa's top shelf stuff is voiced dead neutral. It's his preference and stated goal for his gear.

 The black chassis looks great to me....that is one sweet looking amp....to say the least. Now for the hard part...the sound. 

 I guess I better get cracking on that balanced cable for the 650's.

 Peete.


----------



## Mik

Wow that is Audio-gd's nicest looking device by far. I'll be ordering one of those before June 30th.


----------



## Currawong

Reference 1 + Phoenix + balanced HD-800s is going to be seriously interesting, especially put up against a serious Stax rig. I guess I'm going to have to go and find out now. There goes any savings for the rest of the year.


----------



## les_garten

WOW! This thread exploded and rightfully so. 

 Worth the wait! I thought the only way to get the amp I wanted was to Build a TwistedPair/6-Channel B22. This has knocked that off the Radar! I've been waiting to get my LEMOs in th email to kingwa, they need to go today!!

 Kudos to Kingwa on this one!

 Looks like the biggest no brainer out there at any price point!

 .


----------



## LaidBack

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_WOW! This thread exploded and rightfully so. 

 Worth the wait! I thought the only way to get the amp I wanted was to Build a TwistedPair/6-Channel B22. This has knocked that off the Radar! I've been waiting to get my LEMOs in th email to kingwa, they need to go today!!

 Kudos to Kingwa on this one!

 Looks like the biggest no brainer out there at any price point!
_

 

Wow, great job by Kingwa! The Phoenix looks great inside and out, what a monster. I've sent my order to Kinwga... 

 I received my Lemo CAST connectors yesterday for the Phoenix and REF 1, I'm going to send them to A-GD today as well. Thanks again for the Lemo info Les! 

 Delta components has dropped the price of the Lemo FGG.1B.304.CLAD52 male cable connector from $28.59 to $23.77...


----------



## insyte

This is really exciting news 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 can't wait for the reviews 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'm just curious as to why there is no CAST output on the phoenix.


----------



## sandchak

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *insyte* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This is really exciting news 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 can't wait for the reviews 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'm just curious as to why there is no CAST output on the phoenix._

 


 Let me think.. maybe if there was CAST output, no one would buy Audio GD's preamps..


----------



## Mik

A while ago I asked Kingwa about connecting my speakers' amplifier to the XLR output on the Phoenix and my subwoofer to the rca output. He said that both outputs aren't intended to be used at the same time and it will degrade the quality. Does anyone have any comments on that? Would it be better to build some sort of splitter for the XLR output to send the signal to both my speakers and my sub? Right now, my Emotiva preamp has a dedicated sub output which works just fine. My sub unfortunately doesn't have speaker level inputs. Thanks.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Mik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_A while ago I asked Kingwa about connecting my speakers' amplifier to the XLR output on the Phoenix and my subwoofer to the rca output. He said that both outputs aren't intended to be used at the same time and it will degrade the quality. Does anyone have any comments on that? Would it be better to build some sort of splitter for the XLR output to send the signal to both my speakers and my sub? Right now, my Emotiva preamp has a dedicated sub output which works just fine. My sub unfortunately doesn't have speaker level inputs. Thanks._

 

I'm sure Kingwa is the guy who knows. Looks like a splitter may be in your future or Spkr upgrade.

 .


----------



## Mik

Replacing my sub would be a downgrade so that won't be happening. Have any recommendations for a high quality 1 input to 2 output xlr splitter?


----------



## Yikes

When using the RCA Pre outs it's probably only using 1/2 of the balanced out circuit. So if you hook up a sub-woofer that has an input impedance of 50 KOhm and the balanced out is hooked up as well to something that has an input impedance of 50 Kohm per phase then the phase that also drives the RCA outs will actually be driving 25 Kohm ( 50 K in parallel with 50 K = 25 K Ohm) while the other phase (Thats not hooked up to the RCA's) will be driving 50 Kohm. Putting the circuit out of balance, and balance is important for balanced circuitry.

 I hope that's clear.


----------



## Yikes

At the moment the Phoenix website is down, since they just started taking orders for the Phoenix and the site is taking a lot of hits I think we've killed it.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Mik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Replacing my sub would be a downgrade so that won't be happening. Have any recommendations for a high quality 1 input to 2 output xlr splitter?_

 

I'll look nto something for you. Or possibly offer to make it for you.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_At the moment the Phoenix website is down, since they just started taking orders for the Phoenix and the site is taking a lot of hits I think we've killed it. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Yeah, it normally Limps along, but looks like we made it puke it's guts up Today!!


 .


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Mik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Replacing my sub would be a downgrade so that won't be happening. Have any recommendations for a high quality 1 input to 2 output xlr splitter?_

 

It might be a good idea to get an outboard active crossover, one that accepts balanced inputs and trafo/servo balanced XLR outputs...once you get into the balanced world the price tags of everything go up considerably.

 I have to make this change myself....my current active xover is single ended.

 OTOH XLR Y splitter might work for the sub using a Cardas XLR ---> RCA adapter. I'd still run full balanced to your main speaker amps.
 Use an XLR splitter (Y cable ) at the Phoenix XLR outs and route the main speaker lines to your amps XLR inputs and the other line to the sub inputs....in this case you'll have L/R channels to input to the subs L/R inputs....if you have stereo subs then the wiring is somewhat easier and intuitive in nature, Not too many people are crazy buggers like I am and have more than 1 sub...(I have 3)...anyway. The Xover is the best way to go followed by the Y cable splitters. 

 The digital crossover allows you to do some things the built in sub crossover isn't capable of...like parametric eq notch filtering (to kill room modes) , time align the sub with the main speakers, adjust phase perfectly from 0-180 degrees in 1 degree increments, select filter slope and rate...this flexibility will cost you though. About 400 bones for a base unit and 1.2K+ for a modified one. The splitters will set you back (don't skimp on these either) about 250US including the adapters XLR/RCA. You could always DIY roll your own but only use high quality wire and connectors.

 If you need any help setting this up or sorting through the options just PM me anytime you want and I'll try and lend further assistance.

 Peete.

 EDIT: Mik check this page out for decent quality splitters http://www.turneraudio.com/index.asp...TS&Category=26 scroll down to bottom of page.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Reference 1 + Phoenix + balanced HD-800s is going to be seriously interesting, especially put up against a serious Stax rig. I guess I'm going to have to go and find out now. There goes any savings for the rest of the year._

 

Man that sounds good.....my chain is little more modest on the back end but should be a killer setup.

 I hope your HD800's show up soon Curra.

 CD7---RE1--->Phoenix--->HD650's. Cripes what a jump up the ladder from last year.....

 I know this might sound like sacreledge in a headphone forum but I'm looking more forward to this amp's use as a traditional preamp than I am it's headphone output, although I rate each function in importance to me equal in definitive terms.

 Peete.


----------



## Mik

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'll look nto something for you. Or possibly offer to make it for you._

 

Thanks. My sub has both left and right rca, and left and right xlr inputs. My speaker setup is all unbalanced at the moment, but I'm looking to go balanced with the Phoenix (my amplifier has xlr balanced inputs also). The cable runs are all pretty short from my components to my speakers and sub. Do you think a simple xlr y-splitter on each of the Phoenix's xlr outs would work ok?


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Man that sounds good.....my chain is little more modest on the back end but should be a killer setup.

 I hope your HD800's show up soon Curra.

 CD7---RE1--->Phoenix--->HD650's. Cripes what a jump up the ladder from last year.....

 I know this might sound like sacreledge in a headphone forum but I'm looking more forward to this amp's use as a traditional preamp than I am it's headphone output, although I rate each function in importance to me equal in definitive terms.

 Peete._

 

There is no doubt you get a Killer Preamp and Headamp here.

 .


----------



## IPodPJ

Did you guys read in the last few pages what I posted about the power output of this baby? It's insane, and it's what I need!!! I've never seen a SS headphone amp with those numbers. Just to refresh your memory:

 26 ohm: 1000MW
 62 ohm: 2500MW
 100 ohm: 3000MW
 300 ohm: 1800MW
 600 ohm: 900MW


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Did you guys read in the last few pages what I posted about the power output of this baby? It's insane, and it's what I need!!! I've never seen a SS headphone amp with those numbers. Just to refresh your memory:

 26 ohm: 1000MW
 62 ohm: 2500MW
 100 ohm: 3000MW
 300 ohm: 1800MW
 600 ohm: 900MW_

 

Interesting that the impedance to mw output is not Linear like a non CAST output.

 .


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Did you guys read in the last few pages what I posted about the power output of this baby? It's insane, and it's what I need!!! I've never seen a SS headphone amp with those numbers. Just to refresh your memory:

 26 ohm: 1000MW
 62 ohm: 2500MW
 100 ohm: 3000MW
 300 ohm: 1800MW
 600 ohm: 900MW_

 

Wow......should handle just about any headphone with ease including the power hungry AKG K1000's.

 The two stage vol gradient selection is a stroke of genius after seeing these power output numbers. 

 Are these sustained long term outputs or short peak max ? Not that I'd ever use a volume level remotely close to full power. The real advantage to this is clean headroom on tap for compression free transients and sustained crescendos.

 EDIT: Upon closer inspection : Note the dual 130V primaries of the R-Cores...those are ceramic bobbins underneath that (copper ?) cladding....should be as silent as a fart in space (pardon that imagery)

 Looks like Kingwa left nothing to chance.

 Peete


----------



## doping panda

This amp is beautiful. Being a poor college student sucks. I wish I had the money. Maybe I can get it by the end of next year if I keep saving up.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Reference 1 + Phoenix + balanced HD-800s is going to be seriously interesting, especially put up against a serious Stax rig. I guess I'm going to have to go and find out now. There goes any savings for the rest of the year._

 

I'd love to read a Reference 1 + Phoenix + balanced HD-800 shoot out.


----------



## Zorlac

I wish headphone amps had some sort of volume lock so you could set it at a certain max setting and there would be no possibility of the volume going any higher.

 Always freaks me out that the volume may get turned up by accident or by someone thinking they are playing a joke on you. The volume on some of these amps could seriously kill a man!..heh


----------



## haloxt

There seems to be a lot of worksmanship even in the entry level things by audio-gd, so I wouldn't worry about it at all. If you don't have the money to get the phoenix (I know I don't ^^) your compass is already a great bang for the buck and you shouldn't look back.

 The way I prevent that joke is I look people straight in the eye and make sure they know not to mess with my volume or I will be angry 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## IPodPJ

I'm not sure, Peete. You should ask Kingwa if it is max power or continuous. I've seen other amps that aren't linear in that regard either. Regardless, this amp will power anything we throw at it to LOUD levels and that's important... not always listening at loud levels and certainly not to those numbers, but the fact that the Phoenix has that much headroom combined with the elegant circuit design is sure to make any audiophile weep.


----------



## doping panda

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There seems to be a lot of worksmanship even in the entry level things by audio-gd, so I wouldn't worry about it at all. If you don't have the money to get the phoenix (I know I don't ^^) your compass is already a great bang for the buck and you shouldn't look back.

 The way I prevent that joke is I look people straight in the eye and make sure they know not to mess with my volume or I will be angry 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




._

 

I know. I love my Compass and feel it's a great bang for buck unit. Still, that can't shake my curiosity to experience how high the summit is. Personally though, I believe I'm not looking back, but forward.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm not sure, Peete. You should ask Kingwa if it is max power or continuous. I've seen other amps that aren't linear in that regard either. Regardless, this amp will power anything we throw at it to LOUD levels and that's important... not always listening at loud levels and certainly not to those numbers, but the fact that the Phoenix has that much headroom combined with the elegant circuit design is sure to make any audiophile weep._

 

Agreed....the real benefit is the clean headroom on tap.

 Peete.


----------



## IPodPJ

If it turns out to be a giant killer, I may consider the REF1 DAC. However, tomorrow I'll be receiving my PS Audio DL3 back from RAM and I'm sure it will sound amazing. The money I have into it is more than the cost of the REF1. But if I ever did get the REF1 I would have him put the switches for the NOS, 1x, 2x, 4x, 8x, etc. on the outside. I don't want to be opening up the case every time I want to change a setting. I'm the kind of person who spends more time messing around with his equipment looking for the best sound than I do actually sitting and enjoying the music.


----------



## dcpoor

any chance one of these will be at Canjam? i really want to audition it to convince myself to order. lol


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If it turns out to be a giant killer, I may consider the REF1 DAC. However, tomorrow I'll be receiving my PS Audio DL3 back from RAM and I'm sure it will sound amazing. The money I have into it is more than the cost of the REF1. But if I ever did get the REF1 I would have him put the switches for the NOS, 1x, 2x, 4x, 8x, etc. on the outside. I don't want to be opening up the case every time I want to change a setting. I'm the kind of person who spends more time messing around with his equipment looking for the best sound than I do actually sitting and enjoying the music. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I understand wherre you are coming from for playtime. But consider it from kingwa's perspective, you are going to settle on a sound eventually. Most likely it is where he sets it. Why screw around with crap that may make it sound bad. Set it and forget it. 99.99% of the folks who buy it want it sorted out. He's done that already with the DSP programming. So if you want a one-off offering, well so be it. I bet for the "masses" of DAC audiophiles, he's nailed it spot on.

 It bests the Compass by a sizable margin...

 .


----------



## haloxt

There's only a short time before canjam, if you really want to see it there someone has to try to work something out with audio-gd to have a prototype sent right away to make it in time. Not sure if it's possible because there might be more work to do on the phoenix before they're ready.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dcpoor* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_any chance one of these will be at Canjam? i really want to audition it to convince myself to order. lol_

 

I don't think so....although I'm not 100% sure about that either. I don't think it'll be ready in time. I could be wrong and often am.

 Audio-gd is sending an RE1 , 2 x C-2C's and 2 x Compasses all will be raffled off at the end of the show to 5 lucky CanJammers
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 You might win an RE1. Someone will that is for sure. I don't know any of the details beyond that.

 Peete.


----------



## LaidBack

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Audio-gd is sending an RE1 , 2 x C-2C's and 2 x Compasses all will be raffled off at the end of the show to 5 lucky CanJammers
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 You might win an RE1. Someone will that is for sure. I don't know any of the details beyond that. 

 Peete._

 

That's a really nice promo by A-GD. Winning any of that gear would be a home run...well, winning the RE1 is a $$ grand slam $$


----------



## les_garten

Pretty good odds to win! Kingwa needs to get a Phoenix there.

 .


----------



## les_garten

This is the thread that I am excited about. I feel like Chris Mathews listening to Barrack Obama with a chill running up his leg!! This will complete my setup. I'm behind Kingwa's deal all the way here. I don't see that I can materially improve on Kingwa's design with a Beta22, so he get's my hard earned cash here. 

_CAST Input for my REF1
 Separate PSU Chassis and Head Chassis
 Class A Circuit BIAS
 Digital Relay Switched Source Selector
 Digital Volume Control
 Balanced Output/4-pin Balanced Output/SE Output
 Compass Inspired Design
 1st Class Discrete Components
 Kingwa's Service and Support
 Monster Preamp Capability w/Remote
 Monster Output Power
_
 No way to go wrong with this Gear, a new level will be established. Very Exciting Indeed!

 .


----------



## IPodPJ

I have e-mailed him in the hope that I can get my order before CanJam as I would really like there to be at least one of these amps there for everyone to hear. I have tried to convey the importance of this to him, so let's hope he can get at least one done for the show.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have e-mailed him in the hope that I can get my order before CanJam as I would really like there to be at least one of these amps there for everyone to hear. I have tried to convey the importance of this to him, so let's hope he can get at least one done for the show._

 

He needs to have an end to end solution at CANJAM for sure!!

 .


----------



## LaidBack

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_He needs to have an end to end solution at CANJAM for sure!!_

 

Yeah, the RE1 feeding the C-2C is certainly nothing to sneeze at, but having the RE1 paired with the Phoenix would definitely take their presentation to another level. The timing is tight though, and Kingwa is still burning this new born in...

 I've been very interested in this amp ever since its development was announced. I'm really impressed by the finished product, blown away actually. Audio-gd did a nice job on the product page too, there's a lot of good info there. The Phoenix appears to be quite the heavy-hitter, oozing substance and quality...


----------



## IPodPJ

I'm sure it will set a new benchmark for SS headphone amps. Just in power output alone there is no other SS headphone amp that can touch those ratings.

 What I want to know is how the hell does he design these products so fast? I had a roommate a long time ago who was an engineer and built his own amplifiers. I know how much time it took him to complete something not even 1/5 as intricate as Kingwa's stuff and he had been an engineer for 30 years. Circuitry designs found in something like the Phoenix would normally take five to ten times as long for one person to design as it does for Kingwa. It blows me away how he can do this stuff so fast. I was contemplating buying a Compass or C-2C just to hear the quality of the product, but I really wanted to hold out for something better and I'm glad I did. There was nothing in the headphone amp market that had the specs I've been looking for for under $3K (and that's assuming someone would build it for me) until now. And for $1K no less, with a remote! I'm giddy.

 Up until last night I've been quietly following this thread since the beginning, holding out hope that this amp would be released right around the same time the HD800 will be coming out. I want a very accurate, fully balanced system and I didn't want to take any shortcuts in the power output department. I will have to buy some XLR interconnects as well as recable my headphones, but I can do that in small steps. Luckily, the Phoenix has more inputs on a headphone amp than I've ever seen and allows you to use any kind of headphone termination available. Since I first started coming to Head-Fi, I've seen a lot of great new products come into existence, but this amp is the biggest no brainer I've come across yet (assuming it is as accurate as Kingwa says it is. But even if it weren't, for the price it still cannot be touched).


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm sure it will set a new benchmark for SS headphone amps. Just in power output alone there is no other SS headphone amp that can touch those ratings.

 What I want to know is how the hell does he design these products so fast? I had a roommate a long time ago who was an engineer and built his own amplifiers. I know how much time it took him to complete something not even 1/5 as intricate as Kingwa's stuff and he had been an engineer for 30 years. Circuitry designs found in something like the Phoenix would normally take five to ten times as long for one person to design as it does for Kingwa. It blows me away how he can do this stuff so fast. I was contemplating buying a Compass or C-2C just to hear the quality of the product, but I really wanted to hold out for something better and I'm glad I did. There was nothing in the headphone amp market that had the specs I've been looking for for under $3K (and that's assuming someone would build it for me) until now. And for $1K no less, with a remote! I'm giddy.

 Up until last night I've been quietly following this thread since the beginning, holding out hope that this amp would be released right around the same time the HD800 will be coming out. I want a very accurate, fully balanced system and I didn't want to take any shortcuts in the power output department. I will have to buy some XLR interconnects as well as recable my headphones, but I can do that in small steps. Luckily, the Phoenix has more inputs on a headphone amp than I've ever seen and allows you to use any kind of headphone termination available. Since I first started coming to Head-Fi, I've seen a lot of great new products come into existence, but this amp is the biggest no brainer I've come across yet (assuming it is as accurate as Kingwa says it is. But even if it weren't, for the price it still cannot be touched)._

 

Hi,
 Apparently your roommate was named Bluto Blutarskky. The Phoenix is a C-3 Preamp with an upgraded PSU and a modification to the CAST output for Headphone output. Pretty simple really. I think I covered this earlier, perhaps you weren't paying attention. He took all the modules from the C-3 Preamp, denuded the modules, crammed them into a small footprint, removed the CAST output, and improved the Power supply to make the Phoenix. You following so far...

 So, he really didn't redesign anything, he just put it in a small package...

 .


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi,
 Apparently your roommate was named Bluto Blutarskky. The Phoenix is a C-3 Preamp with an upgraded PSU and a modification to the CAST output for Headphone output. Pretty simple really. I think I covered this earlier, perhaps you weren't paying attention. He took all the modules from the C-3 Preamp, denuded the modules, crammed them into a small footprint, removed the CAST output, and improved the Power supply to make the Phoenix. You following so far...

 So, he really didn't redesign anything, he just put it in a small package...

 ._

 

I must have missed that. Ok, so then that was a bad example and I phrased it incorrectly. And I'm only basing those statistics on what the roommate had told me and how long it takes to design equipment. (Some gear takes years to design, some more I'm sure... just look at the HD800, it took 7 years) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I meant the design of the complete package, all the stuff in the Phoenix which I assume was originally designed from the ground up, even if it started with the C-3? And doesn't he say that he is one of the only companies to use CAST in the way that he does? That can't be an easy thing to do or more people would have done it by now. He just came out with the REF1 practically yesterday and now the Phoenix. That's my point.

 P.S. If you want to assassinate his character, that's fine. He turned out to be a scumbag landlord anyway. But he did build a very nice amplifier.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I must have missed that. Ok, so then that was a bad example and I phrased it incorrectly. And I'm only basing those statistics on what the roommate had told me and how long it takes to design equipment. (Some gear takes years to design, some more I'm sure... just look at the HD800, it took 7 years) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I meant the design of the complete package, all the stuff in the Phoenix which I assume was originally designed from the ground up, even if it started with the C-3? And doesn't he say that he is one of the only companies to use CAST in the way that he does? That can't be an easy thing to do or more people would have done it by now. He just came out with the REF1 practically yesterday and now the Phoenix. That's my point.

 P.S. If you want to assassinate his character, that's fine. He turned out to be a scumbag landlord anyway. But he did build a very nice amplifier._

 

Dude,
 Here's the deal, most of these designers have stuff in their head that they are thinking about. Also a DAC is not an AMP, get it!! It was a trivial jump for Kingwa to do the Phoenix, he already had the C-3 and C-8. All he had to do was shrink it down and improve the PSU from the C-3 or cut it down from the C-8. Really, if you look at his gear, this design was already done. If you can't see that, PM me and I'll be glad to walk you through it over the phone. There WAS NO REDESIGN. He already had it in BIG format.

 I like what he did, but he's not God!!



 .


----------



## LaidBack

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_He just came out with the REF1 practically yesterday and now the Phoenix. That's my point._

 

The REF1 is an upgrade of a previous model, the DAC8.


----------



## IPodPJ

Did I say he was god? Come on now, now you're just acting immature. You don't need to be rude. If I said something to offend you, I apologize. 

 Don't you think Audio-gd has situated themselves into a perfect niche for the audio enthusiast who doesn't have the money for name brands? He's offering top quality products that would sell for 3 to 4 times the price if it had a big name label on it. If you think I'm making a false statement, wander on over to the Audio-gd website and look at his consignment page. It shows you the names of the people and to where it was sent every day or two. Tell me how many products he has sold in the past week.

 No one here including myself has said he was god. But he's obviously done an enormous service to the audio community by selling excellent products (that he will customize for you) with great customer service at low prices. Is that not enough to warrant praise?


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LaidBack* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The REF1 is an upgrade of a previous model, the DAC8._

 

I understand that. But upgrade or not, he has new products all the time. That's all I'm trying to say.


----------



## LaidBack

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I understand that. But upgrade or not, he has new products all the time. That's all I'm trying to say._

 

Cool, from your post it wasn't clear that you knew the REF1 was a revision of existing design(s) just as the Phoenix is. I agree, his output is amazing...


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Did I say he was god? Come on now, now you're just acting immature. You don't need to be rude. If I said something to offend you, I apologize. 

 Don't you think Audio-gd has situated themselves into a perfect niche for the audio enthusiast who doesn't have the money for name brands? He's offering top quality products that would sell for 3 to 4 times the price if it had a big name label on it. If you think I'm making a false statement, wander on over to the Audio-gd website and look at his consignment page. It shows you the names of the people and to where it was sent every day or two. Tell me how many products he has sold in the past week.

 No one here including myself has said he was god. But he's obviously done an enormous service to the audio community by selling excellent products (that he will customize for you) with great customer service at low prices. Is that not enough to warrant praise? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Well... I would go back to my assertion in the Compass thread... The average wage in China is 64c /hr. Makes it really easy to do everything fast and chaap, just like my first wife! Also, viral marketing via Head-Fi can do a ton of free advertisement. He also had as was mentioned before, the DAC-8 which was a REF1 without the DSP Board. Very quick and easy to bring the REF1 to market. That;s why I said, He ain't God, he's just a guy paying attention. Get it!!!

 You sound like an ALO Amphora salesman? Let's do a Head to head Comparison?

 Do I need to ref that Freakin' UGLY Thread!

 .


----------



## IPodPJ

Laidback,
 I am clear now that you informed me. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Thank you. I hope someone has a REF1 at CanJam that I can audition and compare to my DAC. Better yet, I hope I win the REF1 in the raffle.


----------



## LaidBack

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Laidback,
 I am clear now that you informed me. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Thank you. I hope someone has a REF1 at CanJam that I can audition and compare to my DAC. Better yet, I hope I win the REF1 in the raffle. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Yeah, according to Peete's post today the REF 1 should be there. I was shocked when I read the REF 1 would be included in the raffle, some lucky CanJammer is going to score big time!!


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Better yet, I hope I win the REF1 in the raffle. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Now your talking... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Les I'm beginning to understand why your on a second or third wife .....(ducks large brick thrown at cranium) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Just kidding mate !

 Peete.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Now your talking... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Les I'm beginning to understand why your on a second or third wife .....(ducks large brick thrown at cranium) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Just kidding mate !

 Peete._

 

Heh! Actually I've been married once, but I use that analogy for illustration purposes. I will nonetheless log your attack though...

 .


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Heh! Actually I've been married once, but I use that analogy for illustration purposes. I will nonetheless log your attack though...

 ._

 

Just as long as that log is not easier to throw than the brick. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I may be old and slow but I can't make it too easy for you to nail my impossibly large, sparsely populated gray matter receptacle 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Peete.


----------



## sandchak

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Did I say he was god? Come on now, now you're just acting immature. You don't need to be rude. If I said something to offend you, I apologize. 

 Don't you think Audio-gd has situated themselves into a perfect niche for the audio enthusiast who doesn't have the money for name brands? He's offering top quality products that would sell for 3 to 4 times the price if it had a big name label on it. If you think I'm making a false statement, wander on over to the Audio-gd website and look at his consignment page. It shows you the names of the people and to where it was sent every day or two. Tell me how many products he has sold in the past week.

 No one here including myself has said he was god. But he's obviously done an enormous service to the audio community by selling excellent products (that he will customize for you) with great customer service at low prices. Is that not enough to warrant praise? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

I absolutely agree with you that Audio GD deserves praise for offering products that would have been sold 3-4 times the price if it had a big name label on it. No one is calling Kingwa a God or Einstein for that matter, at least I never read anything like that, but unfortunately it is a known fact that some people have the habit of putting words in other peoples mouth just to suit their arguments.

 I am no big techie, but looking at the boards of C3 and Phoenix, I can make out that it isn't the same board, I mean it isn't that simple as people think it is, I am sure Kingwa doesn't have the magic hammer to make the bigger board fit into a smaller enclosure, it might be the same concept but there is redesigning involved. And also Phoenix isn't the only gear to be made during the period after REF1, there was Panther, DAC19MK3, DAC200 and the USB/Coax/Optical converter (to be released shortly).. so yes, they do have some speed but at the same time are able to churn out some quality gears no matter the cost of labor, I am sure there are big names that make their gears in China, but still they price their gears much higher than Audio GD. Its not that simple, if it was, I am sure there would have been others making something like Phoenix in the same price bracket, after all there isn't any dearth of sharp business brains out here or in the industry itself.

 The other thing that comes to my mind is service, I at least haven't received any emails of mine answered from any major brands after office hours, let alone on weekends.

 There is no denying that Kingwa is hell of an intelligent and hardworking person and he deserves much praise.


----------



## Progenitor

Do you guys think this amp has enough power for the AKG K1000? If so this would be an awesome all in one amp for me.


----------



## haloxt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sandchak* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No one is calling Kingwa a God or Einstein for that matter, at least I never read anything like that_

 

I'd call him a modern day Thomas Edison or Nikola Tesla 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 instead of light bringing sound to the world.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Progenitor* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Do you guys think this amp has enough power for the AKG K1000? If so this would be an awesome all in one amp for me._

 

Yes, Pricklely Peete in a previous post has said it will have enough power.

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f5/aud...ml#post5696065


----------



## Yikes

Why 2 data Outs and yet only 1 data In?

 Ah.... I believe that the dual data outs is because some of their amps have Data ports. probably just a turn on trigger.


----------



## fdhfdy

Probably Kingwa's next amp will be called "dragon". 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




let's wait and see..


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Why 2 data Outs and yet only 1 data In?

 Ah.... I believe that the dual data outs is because some of their amps have Data ports. probably just a turn on trigger._

 

Was wondering about that one as well.

 .


----------



## gevorg

Audio-Gd is back online with this treasure 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	









ÐÂ½¨ÍøÒ³ 1


----------



## Pricklely Peete

My new desktop wallpaper 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 She sure is a beauty !!!

 Peete.


----------



## peanuthead

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gevorg* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Audio-Gd is back online with this treasure 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	









ÐÂ½¨ÍøÒ³ 1_

 

Holy schmolly, that looks good! I can't wait to hear some impressions.


----------



## doping panda

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fdhfdy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Probably Kingwa's next amp will be called "dragon". 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




let's wait and see.._

 

Yeah, and it'll be an stat amp with adjustable voltage.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *doping panda* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yeah, and it'll be an stat amp with adjustable voltage. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

This amp + HD800: would there really be a need for a stat amp?


----------



## Zorlac

OMG! That is an amazing looking amp! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ...now how the heck am I going to convince the wife that I need to not only sell my Audio-gd C2C I recently bought, but I also have to spend WAY more money for this amp and a recable for my D7000s???

 I need to start selling some stuff before Kingwa ends his special pricing!


 By the way, is there a user accessible fuse in the Phoenix, or does Kingwa still want us to send back if the fuse ever blows? (I know, highly unlikely)


----------



## Yikes

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This amp + HD800: would there really be a need for a stat amp? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I have ordered a Phoenix and to say that my hopes and expectations are high would be an understatement, and I do plan on giving the HD-800's a listen (The only reason I haven't ordered a set of HD-800's is that I've had poor luck with Sennheisers in the past, both the 600 and 650's ultimately ended up being not my cup of tea), but I seriously doubt that it'll out perform a quality Stat rig at what Stat's do well. I believe that every serious Headphone listener should own both a quality Electrostatic rig, and a quality Dynamic rig. 

 I also expect that within the next year I will also own the 1st Exemplar Audio 300B based Single Ended Headphone Amp (Currently in developement), So I'd even argue that any serious headphone addict worth their own salt should own a quality Electrostatic rig, a quality Balanced Dynamic Rig, and a quality SE Dynamic Rig. Not to mention at least three different sets of Headphones.

 Actually everyone should consider replacing the word Serious with the word Crazy in the above paragraphs.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

I like the cut of your jib Yikes. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Just remember guys the HDXXX or whatever cans you have + the Phoenix is only *half* of the equation.....the source is as critical (if not more so) as the amp and cans are at this level. Never forget that. Better to think in *entire system terms* IMO.

 Peete.

 EDOT: Speaking of source check out this tidbit from the Audio-gd CD7 page ...

 "The #2 coaxial output of the CD-7 uses CAST technology to transmit digital signal, and is compatible with 99% of the DAC brands in the world without modification of your DAC. But there is still 1% of DAC brands that aren't compatible with the CAST output, so CD-7 has another standard coaxial output (#1) that suits all DAC brands."


----------



## IPodPJ

I agree with Peete.


----------



## punk_guy182

I'm pretty sure that the sennheiser HD800 is not the top of the line regarding headphones for the price range. The Grado PS1000 should compete verry well with the HD800.
 If this amp is very neutral and it is coupled with a very neutral source like the RE1 DAC, it would be interesting to have an evaluation and comparaison of the HD800 and the PS1000 which seem to be the contenders IMO.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

No doubt PG. 

 Hopefully such comparisons will be carried out provided we see an actual priduction HD800 sometime soon.

 Peete.


----------



## Currawong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This amp + HD800: would there really be a need for a stat amp? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

This is what I'm going to find out, hopefully quite soon.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have ordered a Phoenix and to say that my hopes and expectations are high would be an understatement, and I do plan on giving the HD-800's a listen (The only reason I haven't ordered a set of HD-800's is that I've had poor luck with Sennheisers in the past, both the 600 and 650's ultimately ended up being not my cup of tea), but I seriously doubt that it'll out perform a quality Stat rig at what Stat's do well. I believe that every serious Headphone listener should own both a quality Electrostatic rig, and a quality Dynamic rig. 

 I also expect that within the next year I will also own the 1st Exemplar Audio 300B based Single Ended Headphone Amp (Currently in developement), So I'd even argue that any serious headphone addict worth their own salt should own a quality Electrostatic rig, a quality Balanced Dynamic Rig, and a quality SE Dynamic Rig. Not to mention at least three different sets of Headphones.

 Actually everyone should consider replacing the word Serious with the word Crazy in the above paragraphs. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

And you should add "...and have no money to eat." 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *punk_guy182* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm pretty sure that the sennheiser HD800 is not the top of the line regarding headphones for the price range. The Grado PS1000 should compete verry well with the HD800.
 If this amp is very neutral and it is coupled with a very neutral source like the RE1 DAC, it would be interesting to have an evaluation and comparaison of the HD800 and the PS1000 which seem to be the contenders IMO._

 

There has been discussion on this side of the world of just such a shootout, alongside the Stax vs. HD-800 shootout. 

 I think in 2009 and 2010 Head-fi will reach an epic peak of possibilities, which we'll have a year or two to enjoy before the world comes to an end in 2012.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Hehe Curra make way for the rapture in 2012 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The only question I have when that might happen is, can I take my gear and music library along with me ?

 Peete.


----------



## Yikes

I'm not assuming that the Phoenix is already a world class amp, I'm hoping that it is. It appears very promising. If it's as good as my Exemplar modified ASL OTL/32 I'd actually be happy. If it's better I'll be overjoyed. It offers a great feature set and looks promising, and I'm in the mood for a new toy.

 One problem is that I don't have any dynamic headphones in the house. I gave away my balanced Siltech Wired Sony MDR-SA5000 (They were Amazing, I regret giving them away 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ), and I have loaned out my AKG K701's. I plan on recabling the 701's as balanced with some Crystal Cable that I have on hand, but that is going to have to wait for several months. So I need a new set of cans. I'm thinking maybe Denon 7000's which I liked the one time that I heard them. I'm kinda picky when it comes to cans, so I don't like purchasing cans that i haven'y auditioned. It's going to suck if I get my Phoenix before I've picked up some new headphones. I'll try it as a preamp, although I'll deficate in my pants if it's better than the Chord CPA5000 that I'm currently using.

 Damn it's late, time for bed.


----------



## IPodPJ

I just recently bought a pair of AKG K702 which I modded to reveal more treble and bass. They are now much better than stock but still nowhere near a pair of world class headphones like my markl-modded-by-myself D5000. They are, in fact, so good that I will probably cancel my order for the D7000 and just hold my order for the HD800. But who knows. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 We are all addicted to this hobby and we find as much (or more) pleasure in testing out new equipment, modifying it to make it as close to perfect as possible, analyzing and discussing our gear as we do actually listening to the music itself. You can deny it all that you want but you all know the truth. If it was only about enjoying the music, you and I would be content with a nice $1K setup and wouldn't feel the need of spending upwards of $10K.

 Yikes, go for the Denons. However I will promise you that the stock D7000 will still not sound anywhere near the quality of a properly modded D5000. Take your own advice listed in your sig about vibration control. The D7000 still employs no vibration control or damping and that is the key to its clarity and dimensional realism. I'm slapping myself in the nuts for not doing it a long time ago. I'm actually going one further than the markl mod by experimenting with different types of foam and cutting them into thin rings to place above the outer rim of the driver, thus nullifying the bit of sibilance that is a side-effect of the markl mod. I'm also using a different material in the earpads which is better than what he is using. His mod is a timely process, it took me 10 hours to do but I did a perfect job of it. It is so timely and messy that I would not even consider doing it for someone for under $550. But for the price you can get the D5000 for plus the mod, you're at a grand for an extraordinary pair of headphones. I'll be at CanJam with them if you'd like to listen.

 And by the way, Kingwa will not have one ready for me by CanJam, especially since I want the switch added to turn off the display. I told him to even send us a prototype which we can send back to him after the event, but I haven't heard back from him regarding that yet. Maybe someone else can try to convey the importance of CanJam to him and the user impressions and thus orders that will come of it. This is the one event he does not want to miss, especially if this amp is going to be the new King(wa).


----------



## Pricklely Peete

That's the million dollar question that remains to be answered Yikes. I'm not assuming anything either with this amp. It will sound good is about all I'm willing to say at this point. The rest we will know within a month or two. Likely closer to 2 or 3 months. I like to give stuff lots of time...let that honeymoon period wear off but good. If the Phoenix is anything like the Compass in the preamp department you are in for a big surprise. That feature on the Compass is what impressed me to no end. I compared it against my heavily massaged Adcom GFP-750 (Nelson Pass design with some serious FrankenWORKS mods on it) and it bested it much to my amazement and chagrin. The wild card here is CAST.

*PJ:* I sometimes wonder if the mod part is more enjoyment than the actual purchase and initial listen. What I mean by that is when you modify something you take ownership of it in a unique way almost like your getting something for free and completely unlike the hundreds or thousands of stock units floating around out there. It's fun too 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





 Peete.


----------



## sandchak

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 And by the way, Kingwa will not have one ready for me by CanJam, especially since I want the switch added to turn off the display. I told him to even send us a prototype which we can send back to him after the event, but I haven't heard back from him regarding that yet. Maybe someone else can try to convey the importance of CanJam to him and the user impressions and thus orders that will come of it. This is the one event he does not want to miss, especially if this amp is going to be the new King(wa). 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I wrote to him about it and I think he has a valid point not rushing Phoenix to Canjam, he feels he needs a few user reviews before he can think of something like that and I actually agree with him, there might be a possibility of some more fine tunings needed. He feels confident about REF1, C2C and Compass and those will be there at Camjam. In any case, after some reviews of Phoenix, he should become one of the Premier Sponsors of Head-Fi and have his own forum here which should help a lot to both us and Audio GD.


----------



## Yikes

I just ordered a set of Denon AH-D7000's. They should be an easy conversion to 4 pin Balanced. I'm sure that the 7000's can be modded similarly to the Markl 5000's if I deem it necessary.

 So my Dynamic Phones to use with the Phoenix will be the 7000's and then once my friend returns them my K701's. Also once the dust settles and I have a chance to listen to a set of HD-800's I might bite at them. The only reason I'm even thinking about the HD-800's is that most people are saying that they don't share the normal Sennheiser house sound. Which IMHO is a good thing


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sandchak* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I wrote to him about it and I think he has a valid point not rushing Phoenix to Canjam, he feels he needs a few user reviews before he can think of something like that and I actually agree with him, there might be a possibility of some more fine tunings needed. He feels confident about REF1, C2C and Compass and those will be there at Camjam. In any case, after some reviews of Phoenix, he should become one of the Premier Sponsors of Head-Fi and have his own forum here which should help a lot to both us and Audio GD._

 

Agreed Sandchak........it makes no sense to rush this amp when so much is riding on it's successful debut as the flagship of the dynamic line.

 I agree with Kingwa's cautious and wise approach and encourage that stance. 

 There is always next year. 

 Peete.


----------



## Pyriel0

Currawong I wish I lived near you just to listen to that setup with hd800's lol. 

 I just emailed Kingwa and asked if he could wire the cast input to a set of the xlr connectors for me. I'm going to have the buffalo es9008 chip(no ivy stage) -> phoenix -> k1000 I think that will be the end of the line for me. Unless akg makes a k1000 successor at some point. The only downside is the dac will only be able to be used with the phoenix after I redo the wires since it will have no voltage output.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pyriel0* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Currawong I wish I lived near you just to listen to that setup with hd800's lol. 

 I just emailed Kingwa and asked if he could wire the cast input to a set of the xlr connectors for me. I'm going to have the buffalo es9008 chip(no ivy stage) -> phoenix -> k1000 I think that will be the end of the line for me. Unless akg makes a k1000 successor at some point. The only downside is the dac will only be able to be used with the phoenix after I redo the wires since it will have no voltage output._

 

You Have (3) XLR Input devices that are coming into the Phoenix?

 .


----------



## Pyriel0

No I just meant to put the wires from the cast connectors to one of the sets of xlr inputs since it has 2 sets of xlr inputs anyways.

 Edit: Unless there is way I can get 2 cast connectors to make my own cables for cheap. Cheapest krell cast cable I saw on audiogon was $200 for a 3 meter pair. I'm not paying that for wires when the whole point of cast is that the wire shouldn't effect the quality. Does anyone know the model number of those type of connectors?


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pyriel0* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No I just meant to put the wires from the cast connectors to one of the sets of xlr inputs since it has 2 sets of xlr inputs anyways.

 Edit: Unless there is way I can get 2 cast connectors to make my own cables for cheap. Cheapest krell cast cable I saw on audiogon was $200 for a 3 meter pair. I'm not paying that for wires when the whole point of cast is that the wire shouldn't effect the quality. Does anyone know the model number of those type of connectors?_

 

I listed all the LEMO CAST Connector part numbers in the REF1 thread w/ Kewl PIX! Also, you would be "breaking" the CAST input function should you want to resell and it would have to be repaired. Kingwa provides "CAST" -like connectors for the cable with the Phoenix if you ask him. If you don't have (3) XLR input requirements, I'm confused.

 I'm having the "REAL" LEMO CAST connectors installed in my Phoenix by Kingwa, already sent them to him. I also will be installing the REAL LEMO CAST connectors in the REF1 and building the cable. You can read the REF1 thread and see in some detail why I'm doing it that way, any questions you have about the connectors and methodology is answered there.


 .


----------



## Pyriel0

Just for example I meant for the cast connector wires to be run to the xlr 5 inputs. The normal cast inputs would still be there. They just wouldn't be hooked up to anything internally. From this diagram of the C-39, the cast is still only a + / - / ground. I will have to go into my buffalo dac, take out the ivy stage, and wire the chip outputs to the xlr connectors that are already there. It would be easier and saves me a little money to just use xlr cables instead of making xlr -> cast since I do not have and will not have a ref1 dac and I don't care if it has real cast connectors. I plan on this being end of the line for me and I don't care if it hurts resale value.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pyriel0* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just for example I meant for the cast connector wires to be run to the xlr 5 inputs. The normal cast inputs would still be there. They just wouldn't be hooked up to anything internally. From this diagram of the C-39, the cast is still only a + / - / ground. I will have to go into my buffalo dac, take out the ivy stage, and wire the chip outputs to the xlr connectors that are already there. It would be easier and saves me a little money to just use xlr cables instead of making xlr -> cast since I do not have and will not have a ref1 dac and I don't care if it has real cast connectors. I plan on this being end of the line for me and I don't care if it hurts resale value._

 

Hi,
 If you don't care about resale, then ok. I just don't get "messing" up the CAST when you have existing XLRs. I think I'm missing something here with your DAC. If it's putting out XLR why not just go XLR input into the Phoenix?? Why disco the CAST?

 .


----------



## scootermafia

Is CAST just the straight-up signal off the DAC that hasn't been I/V'd yet? I don't know that much about current mode technology.


----------



## Pyriel0

Sorry for the delay I just got back from the star trek movie, which was pretty good btw. From what I have read about cast its like scooter said and keeps the signal in current form as long as possible. I'm trying to take the current output of the dac chip and pipe it straight to the amp circuit instead of having the buffalo ivy convert it to voltage, then having the amp convert it back to current before any actual amplification is done.

 My hopes is that doing this will give me the full effect of the es9008. DNR is 132db and THD is -118 plus having the high slew rate of the phoenix and a very good signal to noise ratio from it also. I'm pretty much just trying to streamline it because I will only have it hooked up to my dac.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pyriel0* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sorry for the delay I just got back from the star trek movie, which was pretty good btw. From what I have read about cast its like scooter said and keeps the signal in current form as long as possible. I'm trying to take the current output of the dac chip and pipe it straight to the amp circuit instead of having the buffalo ivy convert it to voltage, then having the amp convert it back to current before any actual amplification is done.

 My hopes is that doing this will give me the full effect of the es9008. DNR is 132db and THD is -118 plus having the high slew rate of the phoenix and a very good signal to noise ratio from it also. I'm pretty much just trying to streamline it because I will only have it hooked up to my dac._

 

Very Interesting!

 .


----------



## XXII

AFAIK, many DACs have different current outputs (there is no standard) so I doubt that the buffalo's output would be "compatible"

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pyriel0* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sorry for the delay I just got back from the star trek movie, which was pretty good btw. From what I have read about cast its like scooter said and keeps the signal in current form as long as possible. I'm trying to take the current output of the dac chip and pipe it straight to the amp circuit instead of having the buffalo ivy convert it to voltage, then having the amp convert it back to current before any actual amplification is done.

 My hopes is that doing this will give me the full effect of the es9008. DNR is 132db and THD is -118 plus having the high slew rate of the phoenix and a very good signal to noise ratio from it also. I'm pretty much just trying to streamline it because I will only have it hooked up to my dac._


----------



## techfreakazoid

The Phoenix looks hawt! Love them knobs and feet. I guess Kingwa is now able to source black Neutrik jacks; though personally, prefer the silver jack on the Compass. If only the Reference One came in the same footprint / stackable form factor as the Phoenix, that would be the perfect desktop rig. Looking forward to the reviews and how this amp stacks up against the β24.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *techfreakazoid* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The Phoenix looks hawt! Love them knobs and feet. I guess Kingwa is now able to source black Neutrik jacks; though personally, prefer the silver jack on the Compass. If only the Reference One came in the same footprint / stackable form factor as the Phoenix, that would be the perfect desktop rig. Looking forward to the reviews and how this amp stacks up against the β24._

 

The REF1 is about the same footprint, just a single box. The B24 is a spkr amp not a headphone amp, you must mean the B22??

 .


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## sachu

I'd wager my YH-100 that Scott's balanced EHHA will stomp all over this Phoenix...bah even my SE EHHA is enough in terms of SQ I say.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sachu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'd wager my YH-100 that Scott's balanced EHHA will stomp all over this Phoenix...bah even my SE EHHA is enough in terms of SQ I say._

 

You still tryin' to sell those Toroids??

 .


----------



## sachu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You still tryin' to sell those Toroids??

 ._

 

Actually no..ended up using that toroid for my S22 supply in the EHHA and the second one went to Smeggy for his B22.

 I need to take that post down..the other two toroids going to use ina gainclone headphone amplifier build.


----------



## Pyriel0

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *XXII* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_AFAIK, many DACs have different current outputs (there is no standard) so I doubt that the buffalo's output would be "compatible"_

 

Well I will be the test dummy for it because I just asked him to put me on the list. I will learn the hard way if it doesn't work lol.


----------



## Yikes

A quick comment about CAST from someone who has both owned CAST equipment (Krell) and sells CAST cables. CAST minimizes or lowers the effects of cables on a systems performance, it does not eliminate it. In the case of Krell; they use LEMO connectors which put certain size constraints on the cables that can be used. Krells CAST cable (At least a couple of years ago) used Mogami cable. Mogami is better than Canare but it's nothing special. This is why there are after market CAST cables. However because of the limitations imposed by the use of the smaller LEMO connectors many Krell owners have found that a higher quality Balanced cable can still sound better than any CAST cable.

 The characteristic of using CAST that is of more significance is that the whole amplification chain can be entirely in the current domain, since the output of the DAC is in the Current realm and that all final stages of an amplifier are also in the Current domain (Because speakers and headphones require current). The theory is that a I/V stage is a "Conversion" and that removing as many conversions as possible leads to a "Purer" sound. It's the old less is more idea, which is sort of funny because all of the CAST equipment that I'm familure with tends to be fairly complex designs.

 The circuit design is only one aspect of a design. The best circuit in the world with poor parts selection and or build quality will still yield crappy results. It's why bean counters have killed more companies than inferior engineering has, or at least as many.


----------



## XXII

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pyriel0* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well I will be the test dummy for it because I just asked him to put me on the list. I will learn the hard way if it doesn't work lol._

 







 I hope it works out for you!


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_A quick comment about CAST from someone who has both owned CAST equipment (Krell) and sells CAST cables. CAST minimizes or lowers the effects of cables on a systems performance, it does not eliminate it. In the case of Krell; they use LEMO connectors which put certain size constraints on the cables that can be used. Krells CAST cable (At least a couple of years ago) used Mogami cable. Mogami is better than Canare but it's nothing special. This is why there are after market CAST cables. However because of the limitations imposed by the use of the smaller LEMO connectors many Krell owners have found that a higher quality Balanced cable can still sound better than any CAST cable.

 The characteristic of using CAST that is of more significance is that the whole amplification chain can be entirely in the current domain, since the output of the DAC is in the Current realm and that all final stages of an amplifier are also in the Current domain (Because speakers and headphones require current). The theory is that a I/V stage is a "Conversion" and that removing as many conversions as possible leads to a "Purer" sound. It's the old less is more idea, which is sort of funny because all of the CAST equipment that I'm familure with tends to be fairly complex designs.

 The circuit design is only one aspect of a design. The best circuit in the world with poor parts selection and or build quality will still yield crappy results. It's why bean counters have killed more companies than inferior engineering has, or at least as many._

 

The LEMOs I bought would work well with Mogami 2534 , I'm using Cardas 4x24 which seems to be about maxed out or snug in the connector.

 .


----------



## Yikes

I have no plans on using the CAST input. The interconnect cables that I usually use for the input from my DAC to my Chord preamp are a set of Siltech Empress Crown's along with a set of Siltech Diamond Zero Ohm cables (used in conjunction with the Empress Crowns). These are stunningly good cables, but are so expensive that Patrick is the only member I know of that would possibly consider them.

 The headphone hobby is basically about twenty years behind the Audiophile community (Concerning knowing or accepting that cables make a sizeable difference). Twenty years ago very few audiophiles knew or admitted that cables made a significant difference to a systems overall performance, now many more know that they do make a sizeable difference. At the moment most Headphone Hobbyist haven't learned that cables matter. In time that may change. At this point the Headphone users that believe that cables can make a significant difference tend to also be Audiophiles, so there is some bleedover.

 This is the primary reason that I don't discuss cables on this forum, most of the members aren't ready to accept the fact that we can often hear differences that we don't yet know how to measure what we are hearing.

 I'm tired and I've forgotten my point, I'm going back to listening.


----------



## LaidBack

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The REF1 is about the same footprint, just a single box. The B24 is a spkr amp not a headphone amp, you must mean the B22??

 ._

 

I was admiring the B24 yesterday. Very interesting....
The &beta;24 Fully-differential Power Amplifier


----------



## Currawong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have no plans on using the CAST input. The interconnect cables that I usually use for the input from my DAC to my Chord preamp are a set of Siltech Empress Crown's along with a set of Siltech Diamond Zero Ohm cables (used in conjunction with the Empress Crowns). These are stunningly good cables, but are so expensive that Patrick is the only member I know of that would possibly consider them.

 The headphone hobby is basically about twenty years behind the Audiophile community (Concerning knowing or accepting that cables make a sizeable difference). Twenty years ago very few audiophiles knew or admitted that cables made a significant difference to a systems overall performance, now many more know that they do make a sizeable difference. At the moment most Headphone Hobbyist haven't learned that cables matter. In time that may change. At this point the Headphone users that believe that cables can make a significant difference tend to also be Audiophiles, so there is some bleedover.

 This is the primary reason that I don't discuss cables on this forum, most of the members aren't ready to accept the fact that we can often hear differences that we don't yet know how to measure what we are hearing.

 I'm tired and I've forgotten my point, I'm going back to listening._

 

I use Van Den Hul The Orchid, which are also very expensive. I got them as payment for work, otherwise I tend to stick to buying such things second-hand, where I don't have to deal with the 100% mark-up that's on a lot of hi-fi gear.

 The idea has crossed my mind that, with a Phoenix, I could get the Lemo connectors for both the Ref 1 and it and DIY, or have someone DIY some cables for me, with OCCC copper wire. It would be interesting to see if there was much difference.

 You'll find though, that with cables as much as everything else, when arguing, people aren't interested in the truth, but only interested in validating their own beliefs.


----------



## auee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have no plans on using the CAST input. The interconnect cables that I usually use for the input from my DAC to my Chord preamp are a set of Siltech Empress Crown's along with a set of Siltech Diamond Zero Ohm cables (used in conjunction with the Empress Crowns). These are stunningly good cables, but are so expensive that Patrick is the only member I know of that would possibly consider them.

 The headphone hobby is basically about twenty years behind the Audiophile community (Concerning knowing or accepting that cables make a sizeable difference). Twenty years ago very few audiophiles knew or admitted that cables made a significant difference to a systems overall performance, now many more know that they do make a sizeable difference. At the moment most Headphone Hobbyist haven't learned that cables matter. In time that may change. At this point the Headphone users that believe that cables can make a significant difference tend to also be Audiophiles, so there is some bleedover.

 This is the primary reason that I don't discuss cables on this forum, most of the members aren't ready to accept the fact that we can often hear differences that we don't yet know how to measure what we are hearing.

 I'm tired and I've forgotten my point, I'm going back to listening._

 

I absolutely agree that improvement in sound quality can be had by using high quality cables. I now no longer use stock power cords, but rather Nordost Shiva and Vishnu cords. I also now use Nordost Heimdall interconnects. These cables have decreased noise and increased bass, resolution, timing and tonality of the recorded music. I buy used because cables can get very expensive otherwise.


----------



## sandchak

Yes I believe and have experienced cables making a difference, but I like to keep in proportion to the cost of hardware. I mean if I am using Compass costing $300, then $60 for Audio GD custom power cable is perfectly justifiable (for ME), but I would never buy a $500 cable for it. In that case I would rather put in some more $$ and get the Phoenix, because (IMO) no cables is going to make my Compass sound like Phoenix (or my DAC19SE sound like REF1) even with stock cables, or I am lucky enough to get the $500 cable for $60..
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 EDIT. In my experience playing around with many power cables and interconnects, I noticed power cables would add to clarity, dynamics and sound stage, while interconnects can effect on the overall tonal characteristics too. Anyway, I am sure I might be disputed or challenged out here sooner or later for this post, so let me say, whatever I have said is based on my personal experience, on my setup and to my ears.


----------



## Currawong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *auee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I absolutely agree that improvement in sound quality can be had by using high quality cables. I now no longer use stock power cords, but rather Nordost Shiva and Vishnu cords. I also now use Nordost Heimdall interconnects. These cables have decreased noise and increased bass, resolution, timing and tonality of the recorded music. I buy used because cables can get very expensive otherwise._

 

Funny you should mention Heimdalls, as I bought a pair S/H to try. They are rather like VDH The Orchid with a slight boost in the midrange. So far with power cables, I've "upgraded" to ones built from Cryo Part's power cable with Furutech plugs that I built myself. You might be amused to know I bought a power cable from Patrick82, a PS Audio Statement. Once I've used my DIY cables for a while I might swap them around to see how well a $100-worth of DIY compares. So far, so good though.


----------



## prinz

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LaidBack* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I was admiring the B24 yesterday. Very interesting....
The &beta;24 Fully-differential Power Amplifier









_

 

looks amazing


----------



## martook

I'm considering getting the Phoenix to use at home (have a Compass at work) but it sure is a lot of money, so might go with a C-2C instead. The good thing about the Phoenix is that I don't see myself upgrading any time soon, everything else in my system would need an upgrade first 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 The DAC I have today is a MHDT Paradisea+ though, so not even balanced. Won't be able to afford an upgrade for quite some if I get the Phoenix either. I wonder if it would be "good enough" for the Phoenix, anyone has any theories?


 Only thing that I find a bit disappointing about the Phoenix is that there are no CAST output for the preamp. Sure, "then no one would buy his pre amps", but it also means that I won't get one of his power amps, which I most likely would (at some point when I could afford it obviously) had the Phoenix been equipped with CAST outputs. So it's just as much his loss really... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





 Oh... totally unrelated question... there's been some talk of some audio-gd thingy for when you use a computer as source. I think it was a USB -> coax (or optical) converter. I have an ESI Juli@ sound card in my HTPC, what would I gain from using an external converter? Or is it for people that only have the USB option available to them?


----------



## Currawong

I wonder how much a HDAM in the Paradisea+ would benefit it? I gather it uses an opamp as well as a tube? You could go with a C2C, 2x power cables (which I and others think make a noticeable improvement to the SQ) and a HDAM.

 The USB converter I gather is going to be a high quality one, using the jitter-reducing DSP. That's going off the top of my head from a Google translation of Audio-gd's forums.


----------



## LaidBack

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *martook* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Only thing that I find a bit disappointing about the Phoenix is that there are no CAST output for the preamp. Sure, "then no one would buy his pre amps"....._

 

I view the Phoenix as a nice pre-amp purchase as well. With the Reference One DAC feeding it from both computer and CDP, the Phoenix will be the epicenter of my gear. I'd really like to be able to run CAST outputs to a potential C-10 or C-1...


----------



## LaidBack

Sorry for the OT but...

 ....I'm currently shopping for quality high-detail speakers to run from the Reference 1 DAC and Phoenix, and whatever 2-ch amp I end up buying. I've noticed there's a nice price drop on the NHT Classic Four, they can be had for ~$1,400/pair shipped. I own the NHT 3.3(and other NHT speakers). I realize they are not $20K B&W or Martin Logan, but IMO NHT are outstanding speakers and an amazing value. The NHT 3.3 have not been in production for many years. The Classic Four's borrow heavily from NHT core legacy technology. No doubt there's a lot of folks with 100X the experience I have that are cruising these threads. I'd really appreciate some speaker rec's in the sub 2K arena. I guess my goal here is a nice quality extension from my main headphone rig. Here's a shot the NHT Classic Four exposed without the grills:
 EDIT: The grill on the inside of the cabinet is covering a 10" side-firing woofer(sub)...

nht classic four - Google Search


----------



## Yikes

You're going to have a tough time besting the NHT 3.3's for under $2000. At least as all around performance goes. The 3.3's main shortcoming is the titanium tweeter. The first thing I'd do is install a set of Felt Rings around the tweeters. This will help with diffraction and smooth out the top end a little.

 For under $2000 you can get better midrange and high frequency performance, and a little better imaging, but you'll be taking huge hits in bass quality and quantity as well as dynamics. The 3.3's were an amazing bargain at $4000 retail, they're still a very good speaker. If you really want to improve on them you'll have to at least double your budget.


----------



## LaidBack

Thanks Yikes. I know the pic looks similar to the NHT 3.3, but I was looking for a possibly better buy than the NHT Classic Four. Sorry for any confusion, I am keeping my NHT 3.3 as the fronts in my home theater/main speaker rig. The Classic Four seem like they could be a serious extension from my main headphone rig. I actually think the Classic Four are more similar to the NHT 2.9, but they both clearly draw upon the DNA of the flagship 3.3...

 EDIT: FWIW, below is a pic of the original NHT 3.3 and some interesting impressions...
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/speakers/messages/1330.html
http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/1293nht/
http://www.stereophile.com/floorloud...ht/index2.html


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Magnepan 1.6QR's and Eminent Technology LFT VIIIb's are both just under 2K as are the best of the Aurum Cantus speakers (which use a true ribbon tweeter).

 The Maggie is 100% planar, the ET's are palnar/ribbon/dynamic hybrid, and the Aurum Cantus are dynamic/ribbon hybrid. The Maggie is 2 Way, the ET 3 way and the Cantus 2 way.

 The ET's and Cantus speakers can achieve 105 db whereas the Maggies are limited to 98db max (I think). If your a bass head a sub or subs (stereo) for all three is required.

 The NHT stuff is superb but there really is nothing like planar ribbons....just some more options to ponder 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The lack of CAST outputs on the Phoenix should not discourage anyone from thinking the XLR outs will be vastly inferior (if used with a C1 or C10) to CAST. I think Kingwa said any of the output types would be very close in SQ. Email him and ask. 

 Peete.


----------



## tim3320070

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *martook* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm considering getting the Phoenix to use at home (have a Compass at work) but it sure is a lot of money, so might go with a C-2C instead. The good thing about the Phoenix is that I don't see myself upgrading any time soon, everything else in my system would need an upgrade first 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 The DAC I have today is a MHDT Paradisea+ though, so not even balanced. Won't be able to afford an upgrade for quite some if I get the Phoenix either. I wonder if it would be "good enough" for the Phoenix, anyone has any theories?


 Only thing that I find a bit disappointing about the Phoenix is that there are no CAST output for the preamp. Sure, "then no one would buy his pre amps", but it also means that I won't get one of his power amps, which I most likely would (at some point when I could afford it obviously) had the Phoenix been equipped with CAST outputs. So it's just as much his loss really... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





 Oh... totally unrelated question... there's been some talk of some audio-gd thingy for when you use a computer as source. I think it was a USB -> coax (or optical) converter. I have an ESI Juli@ sound card in my HTPC, what would I gain from using an external converter? Or is it for people that only have the USB option available to them?_

 

I have the C-2C and am considering the Phoenix. Here is what Kingwa had to say about the C-2C vs. the Phoenix:

 "If you love C2C, Phoenix maybe you will love, but Phoenix show you more mistake of the recording, it is more monitor than C2C, but if the recording is good, sound also much better."

 Also:

 "Phoenix sound kindred C2C but more detail /dynamic and smooth than C2C."

 I don't know what the B24 costs but here is the inside of my $1500 FBI-500 (integrated), just to keep things more off topic.


----------



## fdhfdy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *auee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I absolutely agree that improvement in sound quality can be had by using high quality cables. I now no longer use stock power cords, but rather Nordost Shiva and Vishnu cords. I also now use Nordost Heimdall interconnects. These cables have decreased noise and increased bass, resolution, timing and tonality of the recorded music. I buy used because cables can get very expensive otherwise._

 

Yes and no. Updating to better quality cable won't always improve sq. It depends on the system. A nice reference rca cable may revealed something not nice in your system. Cheaper ones can sound better by ignoring some. It's hard to tell only if give a try.


----------



## LaidBack

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_....just some more options to ponder 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

Thanks for the speaker rec's Peete!


----------



## lmswjm

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LaidBack* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sorry for the OT but...

 ....I'm currently shopping for quality high-detail speakers to run from the Reference 1 DAC and Phoenix, and whatever 2-ch amp I end up buying. I've noticed there's a nice price drop on the NHT Classic Four, they can be had for ~$1,400/pair shipped. 




 [/IMG]_

 

I'm running the NHT Xd system and am completely satisfied. It can be had used for under $2k which includes the power amp, cables, stands. Excellent accuracy (28hz -30khz +/-1dB) 116dB peak.


----------



## fdhfdy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *prinz* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_looks amazing 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

This one is big, looks heavy too!


----------



## LaidBack

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *lmswjm* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm running the NHT Xd system and am completely satisfied. It can be had used for under $2k which includes the power amp, cables, stands. Excellent accuracy (28hz -30khz +/-1dB) 116dB peak._

 

I've always heard great things about Xd, but I've never auditioned the system. I see one just sold on Audiogon for 2k...


----------



## martook

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I wonder how much a HDAM in the Paradisea+ would benefit it? I gather it uses an opamp as well as a tube? You could go with a C2C, 2x power cables (which I and others think make a noticeable improvement to the SQ) and a HDAM.

 The USB converter I gather is going to be a high quality one, using the jitter-reducing DSP. That's going off the top of my head from a Google translation of Audio-gd's forums._

 


 Well, I did order an extra HDAM with the Compass (Moon) so i guess I could try it... not really in the DIY crowd though, so guess I'll have to find someone else to do it for me if I want a half-decent job 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I was thinking I could get a Phoenix now and upgrade the DAC later, I'm guessing that if I do get a C-2C I will always be thinking "what if..."



  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LaidBack* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I view the Phoenix as a nice pre-amp purchase as well. With the Reference One DAC feeding it from both computer and CDP, the Phoenix will be the epicenter of my gear. I'd really like to be able to run CAST outputs to a potential C-10 or C-1..._

 

Yeah, I could ditch the Rotel pre-amp I have now, but it looks so purdy! I don't really want to get rid of it! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The lack of CAST outputs on the Phoenix should not discourage anyone from thinking the XLR outs will be vastly inferior (if used with a C1 or C10) to CAST. I think Kingwa said any of the output types would be very close in SQ._

 

Ah, yeah, but the CAST would be bound to his hardware, since I doubt I could find any other power amps with CAST input at a similar price level and most importantly, with the same connector 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 If I want a power amp with XLR input, I get a lot more to choose from though... so like I said, I think he's the one missing an opportunity here, but that's of course his business decision to make, not mine!


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *martook* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well, I did order an extra HDAM with the Compass (Moon) so i guess I could try it... not really in the DIY crowd though, so guess I'll have to find someone else to do it for me if I want a half-decent job 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I was thinking I could get a Phoenix now and upgrade the DAC later, I'm guessing that if I do get a C-2C I will always be thinking "what if..."





 Yeah, I could ditch the Rotel pre-amp I have now, but it looks so purdy! I don't really want to get rid of it! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 Ah, yeah, but the CAST would be bound to his hardware, since I doubt I could find any other power amps with CAST input at a similar price level and most importantly, with the same connector 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 If I want a power amp with XLR input, I get a lot more to choose from though... so like I said, I think he's the one missing an opportunity here, but that's of course his business decision to make, not mine!_

 

Speaking along the lines of what you guys are talking about, has anyone noticed he dropped the C-8 from his lineup? I wonder why? It's not on the Chinese or English site.

 .


----------



## Pricklely Peete

It's still there...C8SE ? But not on the price list...maybe the site is being updated ? Wasn't that an intro price it had ? Who knows for sure....

 Peete.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It's still there...C8SE ? But not on the price list...maybe the site is being updated ? Wasn't that an intro price it had ? Who knows for sure....

 Peete._

 

It's only n one place I can see. It's not in the "Picture" lineup and it's not on the price list or the Chinese site. He may be editing sites.

 .


----------



## Mik

Got my Phoenix order in today and some CAST cables to try out. Does anyone know the expected ship date for the Phoenix? Or is it just due sometime before June 30th when the price goes up?


----------



## IPodPJ

Mid to end of June is what Kingwa has said. Maybe that will change though. He is fast at building these amps, after all.


----------



## Yikes

Today I sent Kingwa an email requesting a status report. I figured that I hadn't pestered him in ten days so I was due.

 I'm regretting not going to Can Jam, but the money I would have spent going is paying for a big chunk of my Phoenix and a set of Denon 7000's. It's a conundrum; If I go to Can Jam I'd be able to audition everything but I wouldn't have money to buy anything. If I don't go to Can Jam I will have money to buy some toys, but without auditioning said toys the purchases will be somewhat of a gamble.


----------



## haloxt

Not auditioning gear before buying is like receiving a present, you get the element of surprise! ^^


----------



## insyte

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *audio gd website* 
_When fed with an RCA signal, Phoenix can change the RCA signal to an exact XLR signal at first, then change to a current signal to feed CAST modules.
 When fed with an XLR signal, Phoenix can re-proofread the XLR to complete mirror ( exact ) XLR signal, then change to current signal feed to CAST modules. In cases where the source output XLR signal is not exact, (Hot signal level not same with cool signal level' absolute value) through this re-proofread process, it can correct the signal to produce an exact XLR signal.
 In short, whatever the input might be, Phoenix will output XLR signal to Headphones, unless your HP is plugged into to SE output sockets._

 

Well, since the phoenix accepts non-balanced input, I was thinking of changing amps so I can finally try balanced. Though I have to sell some gear to raise funds, and will have to temporarily pair this with the Stello DA-100.

 I have doubts and not sure if this is a good decision. The discounted price tag is the one that is attracting me.


----------



## Yikes

Damn.... Still mid to late June. I think I may send my payment early, the money is burning a hole in my pocket. I'm such a child


----------



## Pyriel0

Anyone with a Ref 1 dac mind taking a multimeter and measuring the current output of the cast connection for me? I know it says 4.8ma on the website but I need to know if its peak to peak or rms.

 I asked Kingwa to take me off the list for the phoenix after not being able to find specs on the current modules anywhere 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. I'm just gonna wait for some reviews first.


----------



## haloxt

After watching my mutual fund get eaten by the stock market, I'm thinking about investing in the Phoenix instead. Wondering how well it'll do with a dac19mk3 and cheap transport (computer and h120 optical out) while listening to cd quality flac. I get the feeling the Phoenix is meant for the full-size dac's, but if you guys and Kingwa tell me it'll sound good with the dac19mk3 I may get one before the promotional price is over. Phoenix seems more recession-proof than an equally priced ounce of gold lol.

 edit: Kingwa told me dac19mk3 would go best with the C2C so I'll consider that instead 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.


----------



## IPodPJ

Well, I just sent him my payment! Since I was the first to order one (or maybe 2nd) I'm sure I'll receive it soon after they start shipping.

 I hold high hopes for it and hope it excels with the HD800 since there are so few amps I feel do.


----------



## Zorlac

I just sent my Denon D7000s to HeadRoom to get recabled with XLRs...so now I just commited myself to getting a balanced amp. Can we give Kingwa our name to get in line without giving him money? I still need to sell more stuff hehehe


----------



## IPodPJ

Absolutely! He didn't ask me for payment, I just sent it because I wanted to get it out of the way and not spend it on anything else.


----------



## Currawong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well, I just sent him my payment! Since I was the first to order one (or maybe 2nd) I'm sure I'll receive it soon after they start shipping.

 I hold high hopes for it and hope it excels with the HD800 since there are so few amps I feel do._

 

I was just reading your comments on the HD-800s with various amps at Canjam, so I'm looking forward to your impressions.


----------



## IPodPJ

Thanks, Currawong. I think it will do really well because the Phoenix has so much headroom. The power output is easily enough to blow all your headphones, so be careful (2,500mW at 26 ohms, 800mW at 300 ohms). Also, I have good news for you Audio-gd consumers! You know how Audio-gd charges you 4% if you use PayPal?

 Well first of all, I told them that PayPal fees are 2.9%, not 4%. Aside from that, they told me there was no way to avoid the fees and they would take a picture of the statement to show me. (I told them this was not necessary as I trust them.) But today I discovered that you can avoid the fees by sending a PERSONAL GIFT payment instead of a PURCHASE. When you send them a payment, just select the PERSONAL tab and then select GIFT, instead of selecting the PURCHASE tab and then GOODS. This way, they will not be charged any fees and hence, they have no reason to charge _you_ any fees. Just make sure you mention this to them when you make your purchase. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It saved me about $45 on my Phoenix purchase. And the amp will be shipping mid- to end of June (hopefully sooner than later).


----------



## Currawong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks, Currawong. I think it will do really well because the Phoenix has so much headroom. The power output is easily enough to blow all your headphones, so be careful (2,500mW at 26 ohms, 800mW at 300 ohms). Also, I have good news for you Audio-gd consumers! You know how Audio-gd charges you 4% if you use PayPal?

 Well first of all, I told them that PayPal fees are 2.9%, not 4%. Aside from that, they told me there was no way to avoid the fees and they would take a picture of the statement to show me. (I told them this was not necessary as I trust them.) But today I discovered that you can avoid the fees by sending a PERSONAL GIFT payment instead of a PURCHASE. When you send them a payment, just select the PERSONAL tab and then select GIFT, instead of selecting the PURCHASE tab and then GOODS. This way, they will not be charged any fees and hence, they have no reason to charge you any fees. Just make sure you mention this to them when you make your purchase. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It saved me about $45 on my Phoenix purchase. And the amp will be shipping mid- to end of June (hopefully sooner than later)._

 

Awesome find! I am a bit wary though, because if all their incoming payments suddenly became personal gifts, then Paypal might notice.


----------



## haloxt

If it's going to ship that late I think I should just place my order before user impressions. But at the least I'm going to wait a bit to see how much of an improvement the dac19mk3 is over the compass before I ask Kingwa how much an improvement the phoenix is over the compass and decide based on that.

 IPodPJ, many thanks for telling us that about paypal. I just searched a bit and I would also like to add that it only works if you take money directly from a bank account/debit card, if you use credit+personal you still have to pay fees. Also, since it's a gift, there's no claiming you received damaged goods 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 but we don't have to worry about that dealing with audio-gd.


----------



## insyte

I wonder how much an improvement the Phoenix will be over the C-2C SQ wise when used single ended.........


----------



## Bob Jones

This is killing me . If the amp is as good as I think , I could save a lot of money over the Apache GSX ect . However if it's not , big time dissapointment . Just one review and comparison .


----------



## insyte

I'm also waiting for a review. I'm itching to go balanced


----------



## mbd2884

Hmm yeah, next year a 2K upgrade for new DAC/Amp and XLR plugs. Look forward to your review IPod! These threads already make me think of future upgrades, bleh.


----------



## tako_tsubo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_..... the Phoenix has so much headroom. The power output is easily enough to blow all your headphones, so be careful (2,500mW at 26 ohms, 800mW at 300 ohms). ._

 

Indeed the Phoenix has great output power and listening with the Senn HD800's will be interesting as compared to the Donald North amp that you have heard and really enjoyed at CanJam. Do you know what the output power at 300 ohm for the DNA? It will be a good SS vs Tube comparison for this HP.
 Will it be all about power or the coloration of tubes...for the 800.

 I looked up that the Zana deux has an output at 300ohm of 650mW, while the ZDT that I am expecting soon is at 300mW....not sure on the Balancing Act.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mbd2884* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hmm yeah, next year a 2K upgrade for new DAC/Amp and XLR plugs. Look forward to your review IPod! These threads already make me think of future upgrades, bleh._

 

The money I've spent so far this year on this hobby is probably the most I've ever spent in such a short time frame.

 Haloxt,
 Yes, you're right. I forgot to mention that part. You must send the money with funds already in your account or with a PayPal debit card.

 Currawong,
 You're right about that, too. I wouldn't suggest doing it for all purchases, perhaps just the larger ones.

 Tako,
 Donald broke out his calculator and gave me the best estimate he could. He said 100-101mW at 300 ohms. But don't be fooled. His amp will drive your HD800 to ear bleeding levels and beyond, I promise you. The only headphone that did not get to ear bleeding levels, but still nice and loud was the DT880/600. And I've been told by Ray Samuels that I listen louder than anyone he's ever met. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Well, at least I used to. With the HD800 there is no need for it. The Sonett is a very simple tube design using only two great tubes, two resistors and a high-end transformer. It sounds neutral and detailed like solid state but with the natural-sounding qualities that all tubes have.

 I will own both of these amps, Oh Yes, I will!


----------



## Currawong

If a tube amp wasn't simply impractical for me, I'd be seriously considering that Donald North amp. It will be interesting for me having all neutral components in my system.


----------



## Hellenback

Quote:


 Well first of all, I told them that PayPal fees are 2.9%, not 4%. 
 

US/Canada transactions are the only international ones that are 2.9%. Any other international -> North America transactions are 3.9%. (Just FYI)


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Hellenback* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_US/Canada transactions are the only international ones that are 2.9%. Any other international -> North America transactions are 3.9%. (Just FYI)_

 

Oh, okay. Good to know.


----------



## Bob Jones

New question . THE MORE i THINK ABOUT THIS AMP , THE MORE I WOUNDER ABOUT : customs & fees ?


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bob Jones* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_New question . THE MORE i THINK ABOUT THIS AMP , THE MORE I WOUNDER ABOUT : customs & fees ?_

 

In the Last 8 months or so, I've purchased about $5000 worth of "stuff" from China. Zero $$ in cusotms/fees. I would get this before Obama figures out there's scraps he's leaving on the Table.

 .


----------



## IPodPJ

I'm just glad the Phoenix won't burn your ass off like the Ref One seems to. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 46W is a lot less consumption than 160W. Also, the Phoenix two-piece amp is a heavy headphone amp, weighing in at almost 30 lbs.


----------



## Currawong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm just glad the Phoenix won't burn your ass off like the Ref One seems to. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 46W is a lot less consumption than 160W. Also, the Phoenix two-piece amp is a heavy headphone amp, weighing in at almost 30 lbs._

 

Why are you sitting on your Ref 1?


----------



## IPodPJ

I don't have a Ref One. I'm just saying, based on all the people who have one and say how hot it is. I don't think I'd get one because I wouldn't want to open the thing up every time I wanted to change one of the settings. I like trying different settings on the fly. And something that hot in my apartment would probably get to me. I would need to read a whole lot more reviews before considering one. I think it was Prickly Peete who said that it is very sensitive to cables. Most DACs are, but if the clock is very good the DAC should not be. Since having a Superclock-4S put in my DAC (among many other things), I can hardly tell the difference between any coax or optical cable. The clock re-clocks everything to less than 2ps of jitter. This nullifies the need for super high-end digital cables.


----------



## IPodPJ

I also think we need to touch on something that hasn't really been discussed yet. This amp has more power than any headphone amp I've ever heard or read about. I think we will need to be very careful with the volume knob because it appears that it can easily blow everyone of our headphones. Take a look at these power output ratings (assuming they are maximum output) and comparisons with popular headphones:

 25 ohm: 1000MW (Denon D5000/D7000 rated at 1,800mW. No problem here.)
 62 ohm: 2500MW (AKG K701/K702 rated at 200mW.)
 100 ohm: 3000MW (IEMs, Etymotic ER-4S, rated at 3V, not sure what that is in MW but way below this number)
 300 ohm: 1800MW (Sennheiser HD600/650/800 rated at 500mW.)
 600 ohm: 900MW (Beyer DT880 600 ohm, rated at 100mW)

 So as you can see, precaution needs to be taken with your phones or they could end up in flames. But the high power output is good because it means there will be tons of headroom, and that was a prerequisite for my next amp purchase.


----------



## tako_tsubo

this amp gets its name honestly! Hot as the city mid-day summer...


----------



## haloxt

Who is going to ask for lower gain, and what are the drawbacks? I hope a switch can be easily implemented. I'm using 40 ohm and 96dB/mW headphones and I don't think I'll need much power.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

To be honest most or all high quality gear is sensitive to cabling choices IMO.

 I've certainly tried many different levels of cable quality with my reference systems over the years and the rule of thumb has been positive improvements with very few negative results. That being said half decent cables need not be super expensive to get the job done. The subject is hotly debated however so everyone's mileage will certainly vary.

 With the moderate level choices I've made I'm getting very good results (MIT and Nordost being my favorites with the gear I have).

 The Phoenix will likely continue the trend which shouldn't be surprising when you get to this level of gear. IMO it makes no sense to go as cheap as possible for mains/IC/CAST cables when some moderate choices will yield pretty favorable improvements. Again the YMMV disclaimer applies.

 Peete.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Who is going to ask for lower gain, and what are the drawbacks? I hope a switch can be easily implemented. I'm using 40 ohm and 96dB/mW headphones and I don't think I'll need much power._

 

Gain is variable and tied to the unique volume control circuit (like the Levinson No 32 preamp)...read the Phoenix page for the details. It's not setup like a typical attenuator at all. You have a choice (can be set) between 99 step exponential and 70 step linear.

 Here is the link to the specification page ÐÂ½¨ÍøÒ³ 1

 Direct quote about the gain/volume relationship 

  Quote:


 About volume in CAST circuits: 
 Phoenix use CAST technology, which is very different from conventional technology.
 In conventional technology the gain is fixed, like 3DB or 6DB.
 But in CAST technology the gain changes with volume, and while you close the volume, the gain is -80DB or -100DB (in conventional technology it can't work lower than 0DB).
 While you are listening in normal volume, the gain may be around -50DB, or between -80 to +12DB.
 The volume control is also different from conventional technology. Conventional technology volume control is placed in the input, and attenuates the signal.
 But in CAST, it is placed at the CAST modules output, where the output is the current signal, not the voltage signal. The volume control is I/V change, and the volume depends on the current (I) change to the voltage (V). (Like D/A chips output I/V change)
 As you can see, CAST circuits have no gain, as it is a completely different circuit.
 The SQ benefits from I/V change volume control. Mark Levinson also knows that current volume control has great benefits, so in their Top End preamp NO.32 volume control, they use many components to change the signal to become current signal (I), then through the R-2R network to control the volume, and then change back to voltage signal (V) again. But Phoenix is simply a more complete work in terms of the current signal, and technically, it is superior to conventional technology.
 CAST is fully non-feedback with very low distortion, so sound is neutral (monitor) because it has no feedback effect. 
 

Peete.


----------



## IPodPJ

Hi Peete,
 I'm not disagreeing with you. I am a big cable advocate. With the amp high quality interconnects and especially power cords are important. I was just saying that with regards to a DAC, the lower the jitter on the clock the less important the digital coax cable is. The reason being obviously that bit for bit data still gets there, it is the clock information that requires a higher quality cable to transmit it if the DAC doesn't do a good job of reclocking it.


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_To be honest most or all high quality gear is sensitive to cabling choices IMO.

 I've certainly tried many different levels of cable quality with my reference systems over the years and the rule of thumb has been positive improvements with very few negative results. That being said half decent cables need not be super expensive to get the job done. The subject is hotly debated however so everyone's mileage will certainly vary.

 With the moderate level choices I've made I'm getting very good results (MIT and Nordost being my favorites with the gear I have).

 The Phoenix will likely continue the trend which shouldn't be surprising when you get to this level of gear. IMO it makes no sense to go as cheap as possible for mains/IC/CAST cables when some moderate choices will yield pretty favorable improvements. Again the YMMV disclaimer applies.

 Peete._


----------



## IPodPJ

Well, I am now ampless until the Phoenix arrives at my door. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Very sad. The Opera is all boxed up and ready to ship off to its new owner.

 I hope the Phoenix is ready soon.


----------



## Drosera

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well, I am now ampless until the Phoenix arrives at my door. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Very sad. The Opera is all boxed up and ready to ship off to its new owner.

 I hope the Phoenix is ready soon._

 

Congrats on the sale, although I was secretely hoping that you would get the chance to compare it side by side with the Phoenix. Still, you're probably familiar enough with the signature of the Opera by now...


----------



## achristilaw

Just visited the site and info on the Phoenix, looks interesting and cost effective. So you took the plunge PJ...congrats and I hope that it arrives at your door pronto. You can always hold the plug in your hand and rub your sock feet on the carpet for an Amp substitute till your new Bad-Boy arrives.


----------



## Downer

Shipping charge to East Europe is brutal. Surely, this is not manufactures fault yet this might keep some Europeans away from this beast...


----------



## Quadrangulum

This looks quite amazing both aesthetically and on the specs sheet. I think I'll pass though and spend my thousand on the JH-13 as there are no actual reviews or impressions yet. It'll be such a downer though if this turns out to be a giant killer and I miss out on the introductory pricing.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Drosera* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Congrats on the sale, although I was secretely hoping that you would get the chance to compare it side by side with the Phoenix. Still, you're probably familiar enough with the signature of the Opera by now..._

 

Don't worry, I'm extremely familiar with the Opera and I won't be forgetting its signature any time soon, in low gain or in high gain (which both sound different).

 And Achristilaw is generously loaning me an amp in the meantime until my Phoenix arrives.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *achristilaw* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You can always hold the plug in your hand and rub your sock feet on the carpet for an Amp substitute till your new Bad-Boy arrives._

 






 You are a funny little screwer, ain't ya?


----------



## Pricklely Peete

What amp is he loaning you PJ, something tasty I hope 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Peete.


----------



## Drosera

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Don't worry, I'm extremely familiar with the Opera and I won't be forgetting its signature any time soon, in low gain or in high gain (which both sound different)._

 

Looking enormously forward to the impressions. Glad too that you also agree that there's a difference in signature between the Opera's high and low gain. Some people have difficulty believing that. (That Meier gain function is weird! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 )

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_And Achristilaw is generously loaning me an amp in the meantime until my Phoenix arrives. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Now that is really nice! Not just sock-powered then?


----------



## achristilaw

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_





 You are a funny little screwer, ain't ya? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I would say "stick it in your ear" but you'd have to pilot a hole in the ring radiator!


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What amp is he loaning you PJ, something tasty I hope 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Peete._

 

The Phonitor.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Drosera* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Looking enormously forward to the impressions. Glad too that you also agree that there's a difference in signature between the Opera's high and low gain. Some people have difficulty believing that. (That Meier gain function is weird! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 )

 Now that is really nice! Not just sock-powered then?_

 

Really? People have a hard time hearing the difference between low and high gain sound signatures? They might as well just stick to a cheap amp then.

 Hehe. Nope, not sock-powered.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The Phonitor._

 

This beastie ?

In Short: Sound Performance Lab 


 Wow that is one sweet looking amp to say the least...should be a good measuring stick for the Phoenix depending on how long the loan is.

 Peete.


----------



## IPodPJ

Yep, that beast. Well, the loan is permanent because I'm never going to return it. Muahahahah!!! Sucker! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Just kidding, of course. He asked me if I wanted to borrow an amp, not the other way around. So it was a very generous offer. Hopefully he will come over when I get the Phoenix so he can also do a comparison between the two. Come on Kingwa, hurry it up already! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But seriously, I know he's working hard to get the amp to us. He is also adding a switch on the back for me that will let me turn the display on and off. I want to be able to enjoy lights out when listening, if I choose. But he says to me (maybe not in so many words), "If you can't see the display, how will you know how loud it is?" to which I respond, "Knob goes up, sound goes up. Knob goes down, sound goes down. Plus I will be able to hear it." Makes sense, I think.

 I think I can keep it until I get the Phoenix, so I will do a comparison if I'm allowed to. The most bizarre thing about the Phonitor though is that it only has XLR inputs but only has a single ended output. Go figure that one out! I'm most interested in hearing how you can adjust the soundstage to correspond with the loudspeaker placement of your choice. And it should be a good, neutral reference amp for the HD800. We shall see!

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This beastie ?

In Short: Sound Performance Lab 

 Wow that is one sweet looking amp to say the least...should be a good measuring stick for the Phoenix depending on how long the loan is.

 Peete._


----------



## Pricklely Peete

PJ couldn't you just use the XLR outs on the back panel of the Phonitor for balanced operation ?

 I love the look of that amp...the analog VU meters , the beefy stance. I'm definitely looking forward to your impressions of both !

 Peete.


----------



## Drosera

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Really? People have a hard time hearing the difference between low and high gain sound signatures? They might as well just stick to a cheap amp then._

 

No, believing that there's a difference in signatures between them. That's not how conventional gain should work. Gain should just amplify without changing the signature. That's why I said the Meier gain function is weird.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hehe. Nope, not sock-powered._

 

Oooh, the Phonitor. Lucky person! Definitely one of the most intriguing SS headamps on the market. And way too little has been written about it on head-fi. Three-way comparative review? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




: (Opera, Phonitor, Phoenix.)


----------



## Yikes

Well it's almost the middle of June, time to ready the funds for my Phoenix. I can hardly wait for the Phoenix. I made a decision to buy the Phoenix instead of going to Can Jam and reading the Can Jam threads is making me regret that decision. I'm sure that once I receive the Phoenix the regrets will evaporate (unless the Phoenix sucks 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)

 Of course at the moment I don't have any quality headphones to use with the Phoenix. I have a set of Denon 7000's on order but J&R is taking their own sweet time. I positively Hate waiting!


----------



## squall343

according to kingwa

 he already got 28 international orders for the phoenix 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





·ï»Ë¿ªÊ¼Ô¤¶¨ÁË[î£Ö¾ÒôÏì¼¼ÊõÂÛÌ³]


----------



## Drosera

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *squall343* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_according to kingwa

 he already got 28 international orders for the phoenix 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




·ï»Ë¿ªÊ¼Ô¤¶¨ÁË[î£Ö¾ÒôÏì¼¼ÊõÂÛÌ³]_

 

Wow, I sure hope it doesn't suck then.


----------



## IPodPJ




----------



## IPodPJ

Well you guys asked for it so here it is:

 The Phonitor amp (with my DAC and power cords) is in a league I have never heard before -- I have never heard a single-ended amp anything like this, and I'm not sure if the balanced amps I heard at CanJam even sounded this good. I don't even know what to say right now other than it is the most pristine single ended solid state amp I've ever heard. The speaker angle customizations are fantastic. If you couldn't feel that you that you had speakers on your ear, you would have zero clue that you're wearing headphones.

 I think the biggest compliment I can give this amp is that my girlfriend has never thought my system sounded right before. Now her jaw is agape and she won't give me back my HD800. She said this experience has made her day and she "wants this amp", that "the music has perfect tone", that the soundstage is so "big and powerful". I always knew my DAC was good but I've never been able to hear it sound this good before.

 I really don't know what else to say right now, and we've only been listening for about an hour. We are both pretty speechless.

 More to come later. The Phonitor has set such a high bar that the Phoenix will probably need to be the best solid state headphone amp in the world to beat it.


----------



## Joelby

That Phonitor has me drooling big time. I'm scared to look at the price tag!


----------



## IPodPJ

More on the Phonitor:

 Anything I've ever said about the HD800 not being able to produce cymbals naturally or the bass not being tight and impactful through a single ended headphone amp has been thrown so far out the window that I couldn't catch up to it if I tried.

 For fun I decided to try my AKG K702 with this amp. Now those of you who have seen my posts know I have never bashed the K702 as I've always felt they were a good headphone and held their own in their price bracket. Well tonight they gave me a laugh. I felt like taking them and stomping on them because they sounded like such pathetic trash in comparison to the HD800 through the Phonitor, which to me now sound like a perfect headphone. In fact, this amp is such a reference amp that the only limiting factor now in my chain is my source (when the limiting factor used to be my Opera), of which my RAM modded PS Audio DL3 is a damn good source, but that's how revealing I can tell this amp is. Every minor gripe and flaw I heard in the HD800 with my Opera was obviously solely due to my Opera and the other single ended headphone amps I heard it with. This combo of DAC, Amp and HD800 outshines any single ended amp I've heard by a huge margin. I think one of the reasons for this is that the Phonitor only accepts balanced XLR inputs, even though it uses a single ended output, and those inputs give it a really clean signal from my DAC.

 Now if you are a tube lover, this amp will not replace a tube amp. It is a solid state amp and therefore sounds like a solid state amp. It does not have the up close intimacy with vocals that tubes do so well. What it does have is the most accurate speaker like soundstage and presentation this listener has ever heard. This amp sells for $2K and is worth every single penny.

 More to come tomorrow when I will give a review with certain pieces of music.


----------



## Drosera

Thanks a lot for those Phonitor impressions! That rather puts the Opera in its place, doesnt it? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (Not that I hadn't suspected that already.) I wonder how all the soundstage tweaking it allows you to do would suit my listening habits though. Especially since I kinda 'outgrew' the Opera's crossfeed. And I can't really help distrusting something with so many pots and switches in the signal path... Then again, if it sounds that good...

 Well, the reference has been set. More impressions are certainly welcome. I guess you're going to cycle through your reference albums now? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 EDIT: LOL, love your renewed opinion of the K702!


----------



## IPodPJ

No, I'm going to take a shower and get to bed. I was at the office until 11:30 and I have to be back early.

 Why more people don't own this amp is beyond me. I can only assume that, like myself before tonight, have never heard it!!

 The speaker angle configuration is just incredible and would aid your listening habits, not hinder them. You can make the soundstage deep or wide, or a mix of both. Speaker angle simulations are from 35 degrees (mostly in front of you) to 75 degrees (mostly on the side of you), and it doesn't affect the tonality at all. I didn't hear much crossfeed going on when I chose crossfeed instead of speaker simulation, but it sounds great with that option too.

 Yes, in comparison the Opera is like a baby's first building block set and the Phonitor is like the building of a New York skyscraper. The reference has definitely been set for a single ended solid state headphone amp. There's so much I want to comment on with regard to specific songs but I just don't have the time now.

 Again, big thanks to Achristilaw for (not only being a funny, sarcastic person) but for loaning me this amazing piece of gear. When I get the Phoenix he will be coming over with some more great equipment; I will also try to coordinate with Donald North and his friend Mike1127 to bring over the Sonnet at the same time, so maybe I will host a little mini-meet in my small (but nice) apartment for anyone who is local and wants to partake in an intimate listening session. I have enough seat room for 9 or 10 people but that includes my girlfriend and myself. So I'll probably be looking for 4 or 5 other Head-Fiers who want to come. The more gear, the merrier!


----------



## Drosera

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No, I'm going to take a shower and get to bed. I was at the office until 11:30 and I have to be back early._

 

Well, I meant tomorrow, I thought you had logged off already.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Why more people don't own this amp is beyond me. I can only assume that, like myself before tonight, have never heard it!!_

 

I wonder about that too. Certainly the few impressions of it have been very positive. Perhaps something to do with the price. With the current US dollar-Euro exchange rate its a relatively expensive amp for Americans to buy. But then still, why aren't more people here in Euroland buying it?

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The speaker angle configuration is just incredible. You can make the soundstage deep or wide, or a mix of both. Speaker angle simulations are from 35 degrees to 75 degrees, and it doesn't affect the tonality at all. I didn't hear much crossfeed going on when I chose crossfeed instead of speaker simulation, but it sounds great with that option too.

 Yes, in comparison the Opera is like a baby's first building block set and the Phonitor is like the building of a New York skyscraper. The reference has definitely been set for a single ended solid state headphone amp. There's so much I want to comment on with regard to specific songs but I just don't have the time now._

 

Does the speaker angle feature effectively replace the function of crossfeed for you?

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Again, big thanks to Achristilaw for (not only being a funny, sarcastic person) but for loaning me this amazing piece of gear. When I get the Phoenix he will be coming over with some more great equipment; I will also try to coordinate with Donald North and his friend Mike1127 to bring over the Sonnet at the same time, so maybe I will host a little mini-meet in my small (but nice) apartment for anyone who is local and wants to partake in an intimate listening session. I have enough seat room for 9 or 10 people but that includes my girlfriend and myself. So I'll probably be looking for 4 or 5 other Head-Fiers who want to come. The more gear, the merrier!_

 

Wow, that should be good. Almost makes me want to start looking for cheap plane tickets. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 You might want to give the Phoenix a little time to sound its best though. That's really something to look forward too, a thorough comparison of an Audio-gd offering with other gear in about the same price class. Great stuff!

 Now if someone could bring a nice fully balanced ß22/sigma22 along... and an AKG K1000...


----------



## Kees

I fully agree with the Phonitor comments, but why is this in the Audio-GD Phoenix thread? There is at least one thread about the Phonitor.


----------



## Drosera

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Kees* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I fully agree with the Phonitor comments, but why is this in the Audio-GD Phoenix thread? There is at least one thread about the Phonitor._

 

Since noone's heard the Phoenix yet, we have to talk about _something_. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But you're right, it's best if further impressions go in one of the Phonitor threads. It will certainly help getting some more recognition for this particular amp. It would be nice too if *vvanrij* would get 'round to the review of it he promised months ago...


----------



## IPodPJ

I'll post them there too.


----------



## gjkphd

I've tried e mailing twice at the audio-gd@126.com. Is that the best way to reach King Wa or is there another email as I 've not gotten a resonse. I am hesitant to order unless I feel we can communicate


----------



## Yikes

They have always replied promptly. Remember that they are 12 hours ahead of us (East Coast US).


----------



## achristilaw

This isn't the Phonitor thread but I had to loan Phil an Amp so he could finally grab and maintain a clue about the HD800. His Opera was totally inadequate and I have firm images of him dragging his girlfriend around the meet..trying to get a handle on the new Sennheiser. Enjoy Bud from one sanctimonious person to another!!


----------



## Drosera

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gjkphd* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've tried e mailing twice at the audio-gd@126.com. Is that the best way to reach King Wa or is there another email as I 've not gotten a resonse. I am hesitant to order unless I feel we can communicate_

 

Their email-server can be quirky. Did you get an auto-response message when you send the mail? Something to the tune of:

  Quote:


 Dear customer,

 Thank you for contacting audio-gd.com. We have received your email and our Customer Service team will be responding to you soon. 
 

If you didn't receive that, there's a good the chance that your mail didn't reach them. They're usually very quick in responding to mails though (at least the ones that do arrive 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 )


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *achristilaw* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This isn't the Phonitor thread but I had to loan Phil an Amp so he could finally grab and maintain a clue about the HD800. His Opera was totally inadequate and I have firm images of him dragging his girlfriend around the meet..trying to get a handle on the new Sennheiser. Enjoy Bud from one sanctimonious person to another!!_

 

LOL.....poor Phil...you've tainted him forever 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





 At any rate this coming shoot out will be fun 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Peete.


----------



## gjkphd

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Drosera* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Their email-server can be quirky. Did you get an auto-response message when you send the mail? Something to the tune of:



 If you didn't receive that, there's a good the chance that your mail didn't reach them. They're usually very quick in responding to mails though (at least the ones that do arrive 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 )_

 

No , I did not get that auto response message. I'll try again but that is the right e mail address I guess.

 thanks for the info


----------



## Drosera

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gjkphd* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No , I did not get that auto response message. I'll try again but that is the right e mail address I guess.

 thanks for the info_

 

Yeah, that's the right address. The one that's also on almost every page of their site. Hopefully their mail-server will be up again soon. (Or perhaps it's time they changed to a more reliable one.)


----------



## gjkphd

I re sent for the third time and did get the auto response. So I guess it's an unreliable server that seems to deliver only some e mails


----------



## insyte

The mail server seems to be working today as Ive already exchanged emails with Kingwa this morning


----------



## gjkphd

just to follow up on my previious posts, once my email went through I received a speedy response from Kingwa. BTW, he seems quite confident that the Phoenix will be well received as I was encouraged to wait until first shipment is delivered and preliminary reviews are in, which hopefully wil occur before 6/30


----------



## IPodPJ

I got confirmation from Cherry at Audio-gd today that the Phoenix will be shipping on June 21. Hooray!!


----------



## seaice

I got the confirmation too: "We plan ship one batch at 21th and the second at 28th."


----------



## IPodPJ

Ok, now I'm deeply disturbed. (Some people tell me I've been that way my whole life 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)
 But seriously, this isn't funny.

 Have you been to the Phoenix web page? They have completely removed the words PROMO or INTRODUCTORY PRICE. It now says the price for $1000 is for the TEST version before June 30th. The price for $1330 is the FINAL VERSION. So what does that mean, that for $1000 + shipping we all become beta testers? No dice. If that is the case I will wait and make sure I get the same price for the FINAL version. That's ridiculous that no one from Audio-gd mentioned the promo price was for a TEST version. A promo price is an introductory special, not a beta tester special.

 Very upset right now until I get confirmation on this.


----------



## seaice

Hmmm, this is not very funny. I have ordered the Phoenix because of the promo period and because I have missed the promo period for Reference One so not to miss it again... I have a little hope that this is only a matter of language interpretation and that the "test version" means something like "product in promo period" and the final version will be the same only for higher price. But this is only my speculation and hope. If someone will find more, please post here.


----------



## IPodPJ

Ok, Kingwa replied basically saying that he changed it to TEST version so that the later customers won't regret purchasing the amp while it was at the introductory price, and that they will think we got a different test version. But he says the sound quality of both batches that will go out are the same.

 Fine, now I'm not worried about receiving a beta version, but I think it's wrong that he would make up a lie like that to pacify people. What's wrong with keeping it the way it was? You order before June 30th, you get it for $1000. You order after June 30th, you get it for $1330. That at least is the truth. I let him know that he should change it back to the way it was so that people don't get the wrong idea and cancel their order. Hopefully he understands and will change it back.


----------



## Currawong

Where does it say this? It doesn't say that now.


----------



## haloxt

IPodPJ, I think there's some miscommunication. By "both batches that will go out" I think he means the 21st and 28th shipments, NOT the Phoenix today versus Phoenix at an unknown later date. It is perfectly fine to me if they want to call it a "test" unit because they are ALWAYS improving things, that's the curse of their perfectionism and so people just have to get used to it. And they care a lot about pleasing customers, whether they buy during or after the promotional period, so don't be surprised or ticked if people paying $330 more might get a perk or two (kind of like how they gave moon hdam's for one month after the end of the compass promotional price).


----------



## seaice

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Where does it say this? It doesn't say that now._

 

It was on the audio-gd site only for a while. Fortunately, they have changed the confusing text and now it is clear. It seems like small language misunderstanding to me, nothing important.


----------



## haloxt

How feasible would it be to put a "volume limiter" mode selectable with the debug button so, for example, you can only use the first 25 steps in the 99 step volume control? It'd give me some peace of mind in case someone tries to play a prank on me or I put the Phoenix in a place where many people (especially kids) can have access to the volume knob.


----------



## IPodPJ

Currawong,
 I spoke with Kingwa and he agreed with what I was saying and changed it back.

 Seaice,
 It had nothing to do with a language issue, I explained above what the issue was.


----------



## seaice

IPodPJ: ok, thank you for the correction. I am happy everything is fine now.


----------



## martook

Man, google translations sure are hard to figure out some times... anyone can tell me what he means with this? 

 "Intention to purchase the fans,

 Very grateful for the support, but please read the page before a decision on the description of sound quality and to identify have been with the DAC or CDP with.

 Does not recommend the use of PC audio market a few thousand dollars or the CDP and other sources in order to avoid losses."

 ... huh?


----------



## IPodPJ

Most of the times I understand Kingwa but that is a little out there.

 He does tons of business with English speaking countries, so this might come in handy:


----------



## tim3320070

Pretty sure he is restating his lack of confidence is computer sourced audio, saying a high end CD transport would bring the most out of the Pheonix and that it needs a serious DAC with it (ala the Ref-1 or very high end CD player).


----------



## IPodPJ

Well there are quite a few high end computer based transports, including the Transporter, PS Audio Perfect Wave DAC, and Naim HDX.


----------



## tim3320070

He seems very concerned that we (the buyer) are going to appreciate the level of fidelity he designs to. He sent me a few emails in the middle of my orders saying he was mailing me the Ref-1 and if I liked that after I received it, let him know and he would send the FBI-500. This was after I paid for everthing, including the FBI-500. You don't see this commitment to any product here in the US.


----------



## LaidBack

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tim3320070* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_He seems very concerned that we (the buyer) are going to appreciate the level of fidelity he designs to. He sent me a few emails in the middle of my orders saying he was mailing me the Ref-1 and if I liked that after I received it, let him know and he would send the FBI-500. This was after I paid for everthing, including the FBI-500. You don't see this commitment to any product here in the US._

 

X2. He's handled my business in a similar manner. Customer satisfaction always seems to be Kingwa's first/highest priority, that's very impressive...


----------



## gjkphd

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ok, Kingwa replied basically saying that he changed it to TEST version so that the later customers won't regret purchasing the amp while it was at the introductory price, and that they will think we got a different test version. But he says the sound quality of both batches that will go out are the same.

 Fine, now I'm not worried about receiving a beta version, but I think it's wrong that he would make up a lie like that to pacify people. What's wrong with keeping it the way it was? You order before June 30th, you get it for $1000. You order after June 30th, you get it for $1330. That at least is the truth. I let him know that he should change it back to the way it was so that people don't get the wrong idea and cancel their order. Hopefully he understands and will change it back._

 

I saw the TEST version on the website but see that it has been changed back. I"m not sure why he'd call it a test version. If that calms those who pay the extra $ after June 30 it also leaves the early purchasers with questions as to whether or not they have a finished version. I"m still not clear what the quoted post is saying. What would be different about the post June version. Also, given the delivery dates mentioned in recent posts, do you all think that there will be some impressions/reviews posted before June 30?


----------



## martook

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Most of the times I understand Kingwa but that is a little out there._

 

Well, I wasn't really that clear about it, but the quote is a google translation of something he wrote on his forum, so we shouldn't really blame his english for that mess 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tim3320070* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Pretty sure he is restating his lack of confidence is computer sourced audio, saying a high end CD transport would bring the most out of the Pheonix and that it needs a serious DAC with it (ala the Ref-1 or very high end CD player)._

 

hmm... FLAC -> good soundcard -> DAC (like ref1) -> phoenix

 I wonder why that wouldn't be good enough for him. Possibly replacing the soundcard with his USB converter when that's available...


 I'd have to say that the Ref1 is a tad too expensive for me though, how do you think the DAC-9 MK3 would fair in comparison?


----------



## seaice

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *martook* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'd have to say that the Ref1 is a tad too expensive for me though, how do you think the DAC-9 MK3 would fair in comparison?_

 

I asked Kingwa directly to this and his reply was: 

 "DAC9MK3 is change low costly base on our DAC8, the different is put the PCM1704 on two modules board, DAC8 is built in the main board. RE1 is upgrade from DAC8, the L and R output board is same. And apply DSP to handle the digital signal. Some Chinese have DAC8, but they buy RE1 and sais there is big different on SQ."

 I am planning to buy the Ref1 in a few months to feed my ordered Phoenix. I have missed the promo period for Ref1 so there is no hurry for me now 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I would like to let my wallet relax for a while after the Phoenix arrives. 


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *martook* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_hmm... FLAC -> good soundcard -> DAC (like ref1) -> phoenix_

 

I believe in a good soundcard too. I have recently bought the E-MU 0404 and I was impressed by the quality of the digital output. Before the E-MU I had used only the optical output of my notebook integrated soundcard or the Xitel DG2 USB optical transport (both through Foobar2000 with Kernel Streaming). The SQ improvement of the dig. output of the E-MU 0-404 (with its native Asio driver in Foobar) is very distinctive. I use the same optical cable with the E-MU but the sound is really much better. 
 [Though, I am not sure if there is not an issue with the Kernel Streaming support in Foobar but I think Kernel Streaming should be bit perfect and should not change the sound in any way (as the Asio driver should not). ]


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gjkphd* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I saw the TEST version on the website but see that it has been changed back. I"m not sure why he'd call it a test version. If that calms those who pay the extra $ after June 30 it also leaves the early purchasers with questions as to whether or not they have a finished version. I"m still not clear what the quoted post is saying. What would be different about the post June version. Also, given the delivery dates mentioned in recent posts, do you all think that there will be some impressions/reviews posted before June 30?_

 

No worries. Kingwa is a man of integrity and he realized what he said was wrong and changed it back. No one was going to get a test version, he just wanted to quell the late comers from being angry at the higher prices by telling them we had a test version. It means Kingwa would have been lying and I don't think he realized that. When I brought it to his attention, he took care of it immediately, just as a good businessman and man of integrity would.

 The first shipment is exactly the same as the second shipment which will be just the same as the third and fourth shipments. He says all of them will have the same sound quality. If by chance something is caught along the way, and I don't think this will happen since he learned many lessons with the other amps, then he will fix our amps. If a fix would be required, hopefully that fix can be mailed to us in the form of a new chip or board that we can put in place on our own so that we dont have to pay to ship it back. At the very most I would only ship it back one way and then the return shipping would have to be covered on his end. Shipping to China is very expensive.


----------



## Currawong

The most I imagine might happen between versions is minor changes based on feedback, as that seems to be the norm.


----------



## haloxt

You guys might not know this, but when the compass was first released they called the first 18 "test units" or "prototypes" EVEN BEFORE they were even shipped out or known they will be improved upon (except for the preamp function, which many chose not to have in order to get the compass sooner). What Kingwa means by "test" units is that they are the FIRST batches, that's all. And since the first batches of the Phoenix are the first to be sold, you buyers are really testers regardless of what the website says about test or final units 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. I hope you understand and stop with all the criticism.

 edit: oh yeah, and I asked Kingwa about possibly putting in a volume limiter and he said the software doesn't have that function atm, but said that it has a software setting where if the volume is changed too fast it will be delayed so haha to pranksters!


----------



## Currawong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You guys might not know this, but when the compass was first released they called the first 18 "test units" or "prototypes" EVEN BEFORE they were even shipped out or known they will be improved upon (except for the preamp function, which many chose not to have in order to get the compass sooner). What Kingwa means by "test" units is that they are the FIRST batches, that's all. And since the first batches of the Phoenix are the first to be sold, you buyers are really testers regardless of what the website says about test or final units 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





. I hope you understand and stop with all the criticism._

 

The circumstances with the Compass were radically different to those of the phoenix though. The Compass was designed entirely on feedback from people. The Phoenix, in contrast, is entirely his design as far as I know.


----------



## haloxt

Yes, but in both cases I don't think Kingwa meant that they are unfinished products by saying "test" or "prototype" as a few seem to think was meant.


----------



## Yikes

There is always some additional risk in buying early. I remember that my Grandfather and Father use to say "Never buy a car in the first model year”. The fact is that when dealing with complex machinery or electronics sometimes it takes actual customer feedback to discover and then correct problems. One would hope that any major issues would be addressed under warranty (The whole purchased from China thing makes this much more difficult). In my experience (with Electronics) issues are usually operational in nature. 

I hope that Audio-Gd will facilitate the updating in the field if critical operational or major performance issues arise. Still if Kingwa improves (upgrades) the performance in future production the warranty doesn’t cover such issues. If one month from now he changes the circuits to improve the sound quality he is under no obligation to provide free upgrades, it would be nice but he doesn’t have to. What if he upgrades the unit in three months, should he provide free upgrades at that point? Six months? One year?

I am confident enough in Kingwa’s business ethics that I am purchasing a Phoenix from him. I am also very aware of the risks in buying an early production unit from China. From the sound of it some on this forum are not aware of the risks, and may have unrealistic expectations concerning the level of customer service that can be expected from 10,000 miles away.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There is always some additional risk in buying early. I remember that my Grandfather and Father use to say "Never buy a car in the first model year”. The fact is that when dealing with complex machinery or electronics sometimes it takes actual customer feedback to discover and then correct problems. One would hope that any major issues would be addressed under warranty (The whole purchased from China thing makes this much more difficult). In my experience (with Electronics) issues are usually operational in nature. 

I hope that Audio-Gd will facilitate the updating in the field if critical operational or major performance issues arise. Still if Kingwa improves (upgrades) the performance in future production the warranty doesn’t cover such issues. If one month from now he changes the circuits to improve the sound quality he is under no obligation to provide free upgrades, it would be nice but he doesn’t have to. What if he upgrades the unit in three months, should he provide free upgrades at that point? Six months? One year?

I am confident enough in Kingwa’s business ethics that I am purchasing a Phoenix from him. I am also very aware of the risks in buying an early production unit from China. From the sound of it some on this forum are not aware of the risks, and may have unrealistic expectations concerning the level of customer service that can be expected from 10,000 miles away._

 

Agreed, witness the REF1 that needs a Board replaced. He told me some time back that early adopters get a break on pricing. You can call it what you want, but it's Beta/Gamma testing. You really don't get a good shakedown till you get all kinds of people trying to do all kinds of stuff with your gear.

 My opinion, he was being *Extremely* Honest saying testing. Basically referring to final field testing. He's giving a pretty good discount for the Testing boxes too.

 .


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Agreed, witness the REF1 that needs a Board replaced. He told me some time back that early adopters get a break on pricing. You can call it what you want, but it's Beta/Gamma testing. You really don't get a good shakedown till you get all kinds of people trying to do all kinds of stuff with your gear.

 My opinion, he was being *Extremely* Honest saying testing. Basically referring to final field testing. He's giving a pretty good discount for the Testing boxes too.

 ._

 

I told him this and that I'd rather put my order on hold until the testing phase was done. He assured me this was not the case and I had no need to put my order on hold. Since Kingwa is honest about everything else when it comes to people liking his products, why would he lie about that? Therefore, if it really is a testing unit, I would expect him to fix any issues with it free of charge.


----------



## Yikes

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I told him this and that I'd rather put my order on hold until the testing phase was done. He assured me this was not the case and I had no need to put my order on hold. Since Kingwa is honest about everything else when it comes to people liking his products, why would he lie about that? Therefore, if it really is a testing unit, I would expect him to fix any issues with it free of charge._

 

Issues sure, but if he changes the design to make it better that's not the same thing as issues.


----------



## scootermafia

Yeah, at least Audio-GD thoroughly breaks in their stuff for many days before shipping it...and they're pretty good with taking care of repairs from what I've heard...minimizes the risk, but it is a new product.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *scootermafia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yeah, at least Audio-GD thoroughly breaks in their stuff for many days before shipping it...and they're pretty good with taking care of repairs from what I've heard...minimizes the risk, but it is a new product._

 

We shall see soon enough. Mine ships out on the 21st (apparently he sends it to the courier on Sunday). Many people will get to hear it at our L.A. meet on the 11th of July where it will go head to head against a Balanced B22 and the Phonitor (the best SS amp I've heard to date).


----------



## insyte

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_We shall see soon enough. Mine ships out on the 21st (apparently he sends it to the courier on Sunday). Many people will get to hear it at our L.A. meet on the 11th of July where it will go head to head against a Balanced B22 and the Phonitor (the best SS amp I've heard to date)._

 

Darn, I was hoping this could be compared to a Balanced Beta22 before June 30 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But do please post a quick impression vs the Phonitor once you get the Phoenix


----------



## Yikes

If you're expecting an accurate evaluation of the Phoenix in time to take advantage of the promotional price you're going to be disappointed. Do you really expect someone who just spent over $1100 on an amplifier to admit that they made a mistake and that it sucks? If we early adopters don't like it and we say it sucks we would be shooting ourselves in the wallet, we would be reducing our possible resale value. I can tell you right now that we're all going to Love it, that is until you see people selling them off, because they've suddenly decided that they have too many toys.

 I'm not saying that people make a conscience decision to lie, it's just that early on people bask in the new toy glow and early opinions tend be a bit hyperbolic. The real measure of a product is whether people keep on liking and using and owning a product long term. IMO the promotional discount (25%) makes this purchase fairly safe. Down the road reselling if necessary should come close to breaking even, so there is little actual risk.

 IMO any opinions concerning a new product that are given in the first month of ownership are suspect. Waiting until the honeymoon is over is always wise, if only the honeymoon wasn't so much freaking fun.


----------



## Bob Jones

A quick impression will get us fence sitters decideing one way or the other before the price increase . If it's as good as I hope and can compete sonically with the likes of the Apache , GSX , and the new Rudi 300 ect. Well the front runners will be imortalized . If not , hero's for saveing us from ourselves . A BIG THANKS


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If you're expecting an accurate evaluation of the Phoenix in time to take advantage of the promotional price you're going to be disappointed. Do you really expect someone who just spent over $1100 on an amplifier to admit that they made a mistake and that it sucks? If we early adopters don't like it and we say it sucks we would be shooting ourselves in the wallet, we would be reducing our possible resale value. I can tell you right now that we're all going to Love it, that is until you see people selling them off, because they've suddenly decided that they have too many toys.

 I'm not saying that people make a conscience decision to lie, it's just that early on people bask in the new toy glow and early opinions tend be a bit hyperbolic. The real measure of a product is whether people keep on liking and using and owning a product long term. IMO the promotional discount (25%) makes this purchase fairly safe. Down the road reselling if necessary should come close to breaking even, so there is little actual risk.

 IMO any opinions concerning a new product that are given in the first month of ownership are suspect. Waiting until the honeymoon is over is always wise, if only the honeymoon wasn't so much freaking fun.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

No, I would not lie. If I try it out right away and it sucks compared to the Phonitor, I will say so and it will be returned. I promise you that. On the other hand, keep in mind that I also thought the HD800 sucked the first day I heard them and it took me awhile to appreciate that they were possibly the best headphone ever made. On a third hand 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, I am familiar enough now with all the equipment here in my home to be able to give a pretty good impression of a new amp when I get it. I do not think it will suck though, or I wouldn't have purchased it.

 insyte and Bob Jones,
 If I happen to get it in time before the promotion expires I will let you know. But honestly that really isn't fair to those of us who are taking the gamble on a new product. If you want the good deal, you should be in line with the rest of us.


----------



## Pyriel0

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_insyte and Bob Jones,
 If I happen to get it in time before the promotion expires I will let you know. But honestly that really isn't fair to those of us who are taking the gamble on a new product. If you want the good deal, you should be in line with the rest of us. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I don't understand how you can say that when the whole point of this forum is to read reviews/comments from other people and make at least an educated decision/guess instead of gambling. I'm pretty sure the people asking these questions don't have $1k+ to gamble on something. It is pretty messed up to only offer a lower price at a time when there are no reviews. I thought by now they would have extended the initial price until the middle-end of July at least so some reviews would come out and push sales(providing it is good). 

 I am one of the people waiting on reviews because I won't gamble with $1k+.


----------



## Yikes

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ If I try it out right away and it sucks compared to the Phonitor, I will say so and it will be returned. I promise you that._

 


 You're going to compare a $2200 dedicated headphone amp to the $1000 Phoenix a preamp/headphone amp with remote control and if the more than twice expensive unit is better you are going to return the Phoenix? Wow why even bother? First of all, where does the Audio-Gd website say anything about a trial period? 

 I never buy anything that I don't want, and I certainly don't buy knowing that I am going to return*. If the Phoenix isn't good enough to be my main amp I'll either sell it, or move it into my bedroom rig. The fact is that I could use a preamp, it's likely to see more preamp than headphone duty.

 *You're setting the Phoenix up to fail by pitting it against a much more expensive unit that doesn't offer as many features as the Phoenix (The gimmicky crossfeed and speaker angle features IMO don't count, since I have no interest in them). If you are that enamored with the Phonitor maybe you should cancel your Phoenix order.


----------



## Yikes

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pyriel0* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't understand how you can say that when the whole point of this forum is to read reviews/comments from other people and make at least an educated decision/guess instead of gambling. I'm pretty sure the people asking these questions don't have $1k+ to gamble on something. It is pretty messed up to only offer a lower price at a time when there are no reviews. I thought by now they would have extended the initial price until the middle-end of July at least so some reviews would come out and push sales(providing it is good). 

 I am one of the people waiting on reviews because I won't gamble with $1k+._

 


 You obviously don't understand the concept of a Promotional Price. Kingwa's English is not good enough to allow him to call the early price what it is, but it's obviously a Promotional Price. The discounted price is to encourage people to purchase. They will then post positive opinions about the product (Hopefully) and the word will spread about a worthwhile product. This will entice further sales. The discount is not Kingwa being nice to us, it's Kingwa giving a discount to early purchasers in an effort to speed positive word of mouth.

 Sure you can wait for reviews, but it may cost you $330 to do so. I believe that Kingwa did do us a favor by extending the discount to the end of June. This means that you might actually get some initial impressions before the discount expires.


----------



## haloxt

Yikes, IPodPJ never said he'd return the Phoenix if it wasn't better than the Phonitor, but he would return it if it "sucks compared to the Phonitor. It's unlikely the Phoenix will "suck" because it's based on a 3 year old preamp that's sold a lot and well-liked.


----------



## Currawong

Kingwa is very sensitive to customer satisfaction, so I'm sure he'd accept a return if someone wasn't satisfied. I'm also sure it could be sold on for the amount paid too, as there's a lot of interest.

 I hope someone out there can compare one to other top-end amps, but ultimately, for me, it has to provide a significant improvement over the C2C single-ended, and a very significant improvement balanced.


----------



## Yikes

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yikes, IPodPJ never said he'd return the Phoenix if it wasn't better than the Phonitor, but he would return it if it "sucks compared to the Phonitor. It's unlikely the Phoenix will "suck" because it's based on a 3 year old preamp that's sold a lot and well-liked._

 

"Sucks compared to" is relative. It certainly does mean that if the Phoenix is not as good as the Phonitor that he'll return it, it just doesn't specify the degree at which point he will do so. 

 As far as being based on a Preamp goes, why is this a redeeming characteristic? Headphones range from about 25 ohms to about 600 ohms and preamps customarily drive 10,000 to 100,000 ohms so this means that a preamp would drive the lower loads well?

 In actuality if the Preamp is configured to drive CAST then it does normally drive a low impedance. If the Phoenix is based on one of Kingwa's CAST preamps why does he omit the CAST amplifier output?


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yikes, IPodPJ never said he'd return the Phoenix if it wasn't better than the Phonitor, but he would return it if it "sucks compared to the Phonitor. It's unlikely the Phoenix will "suck" because it's based on a 3 year old preamp that's sold a lot and well-liked._

 

That's my point. I don't plan on it "sucking" at all.

 Yikes,
 I absolutely do intend for the Phoenix to measure up to the Phonitor and surpass it. The Phonitor is a $2K amp for many reasons. Obviously marketing is a factor which Kingwa does not do. Secondly, it's made in Germany and then imported to the U.S. Chinese made products from relatively small companies like Audio-gd should be much less expensive than their European or American equivalents. Labor cost in China is a fraction of what it is in Europe or the U.S. The Phoenix looks like if it were made in the U.S., it would cost upwards of $3K-$4K, so I certainly expect it to outperform or at least equal the Phonitor.

 You also say the speaker angle features are just gimmicks. Have you actually heard the amp so that you can comment knowledgeably on those features? They are anything but gimmicks and allow the HD800 to have an even more accurate soundstage without affecting tonality.


----------



## haloxt

Yikes, my bad. The Phoenix is based on the C3 not C8. It doesn't have CAST output so it don't compete with the real preamps.


----------



## gjkphd

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_.

 I'm not saying that people make a conscience decision to lie, it's just that early on people bask in the new toy glow and early opinions tend be a bit hyperbolic. The real measure of a product is whether people keep on liking and using and owning a product long term. IMO the promotional discount (25%) makes this purchase fairly safe. Down the road reselling if necessary should come close to breaking even, so there is little actual risk.

 IMO any opinions concerning a new product that are given in the first month of ownership are suspect. Waiting until the honeymoon is over is always wise, if only the honeymoon wasn't so much freaking fun.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

I agree with Yikes' description of early reviews. Its' related to the social psychological phenomenon of cognitive dissonance. Basically, you pay a grand for a hoped for improvement and you hear an improvement. We're talking initial mpressions here, initial impressions of a few who have faith in this product and believe it will be everything they hope it will be. 

 With that said this is the correspondence I received from Kingwa the other day-- "I think you can wait some time and see if can read some reviews in HeadFi, I plan to ship the first batch at 21 th, they maybe can receive around 25th.
 Kingwa" He was advising that there is some time window to read reviews/impressions before the price goes up. 

 I guess the bottom line is that when you buy a product without hearing it for yourself there's obvious risk. Some of us, me included, think about minimizing that risk to some extent by waiting for initial impressions of the Phoenix. However, these initial impressions may be quite skewed so risk remains. If you really want to reduce risk of a poor choice wait a while, gather more long tem reviews and better yet hear it for yourselfl and pay extra, if not, take your chances.


----------



## LaidBack

Wow, lets not over-analyze things to a Freudian level or whatever. The Phoenix is just another of many Audio-gd products that Kingwa has offered for an initial/promotional price....


----------



## gjkphd

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LaidBack* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wow, lets not over-analyze things to a Freudian level or whatever. The Phoenix is just another of many Audio-gd products that Kingwa has offered for an initial/promotional price...._

 

C'mon, overanalyzing, isn't that what head-fi's all about, overanalyzing relatively unimportant stuff
 Eg--40 pages of "tube rolling with the ***amp", "help me choose my new phone", "senns vs grado" etc, etc


----------



## punk_guy182

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LaidBack* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wow, lets not over-analyze things to a Freudian level or whatever. The Phoenix is just another of many Audio-gd products that Kingwa has offered for an initial/promotional price...._

 

Freud doesn't have anything to do with cognitive dissonance butthe phenomenon could be easilly explained by psychonalytic theories. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Anyhow, has anyone tried investigating why the Phoenix doesn't have CAST outputs?
 I was told that the PreAmp of the Phoenix is as as good as C-3SE.


----------



## IPodPJ

The only reasons I can think of are 1) he wants you to buy his preamp, and 2) might have required more circuit design and a bigger enclosure.


----------



## LaidBack

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *punk_guy182* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Freud doesn't have anything to do with cognitive dissonance butthe phenomenon could be easilly explained by psychonalytic theories. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

LOL, yeah, that's why I said "or whatever"...so you got my drift, that there's no need to over-analyze the intro pricing to the fiber-level, he has done intro pricing on many products...

 The only thing that I'm worried about with this whole deal is that I'll have my cans recabled/balanced before the Phoenix arrives, I need to get my arse in gear...


----------



## Currawong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *punk_guy182* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Anyhow, has anyone tried investigating why the Phoenix doesn't have CAST outputs?
 I was told that the PreAmp of the Phoenix is as as good as C-3SE._

 

Kingwa told someone else (I forget who) that he doesn't want it cutting into the sales of his pre-amps. Ironically, he could well upgrade it down the track to include CAST output, and abolish the C-3SE. He could also start a trend here of CAST usage, though I doubt any other manufacturers would follow.


----------



## Yikes

Does anyone have any experience with DHL vs EMS from China to the U.S.? DHL is faster, why would anyone use EMS?

 They'll be shipping in a week so it's time to decide how I want them to ship my Phoenix, Without a good reason DHL makes more sense if only from a time in transit perspective.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Does anyone have any experience with DHL vs EMS from China to the U.S.? DHL is faster, why would anyone use EMS?

 They'll be shipping in a week so it's time to decide how I want them to ship my Phoenix, Without a good reason DHL makes more sense if only from a time in transit perspective._

 

Well, if Kingwa claims DHL is the faster option I would go with that. New York, London, and Hong Kong have the largest airports in the world and they are the primary entry and exit points for air freight.

 When Meier Audio shipped me the Opera from Germany via DHL, it took a ridiculous 22 days to get here. But the worst I've seen is when I shipped a pair of Triple.Fi to a head-fier in Italy via USPS, it took 30 days for him to receive it (but that was due to Italian customs).


----------



## Drosera

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Does anyone have any experience with DHL vs EMS from China to the U.S.? DHL is faster, why would anyone use EMS?

 They'll be shipping in a week so it's time to decide how I want them to ship my Phoenix, Without a good reason DHL makes more sense if only from a time in transit perspective._

 

On the whole, DHL is a lot faster with the Audio-gd shipments than EMS. The main reason EMS is offered as an alternative is that for some countries it offers a better chance of avoiding custom duties (but this is not an issue with USA customs (yet) AFAIK). Lately, EMS shipping from Audio-gd has also gained some increased popularity because of the "DHL-shipping the Compass in bubble-wrap bags debacle", but hopefully such a thing will never happen again. 

 So, DHL shipping should be the best option, certainly when shipping to the USA. I've heard many reports of Audio-gd DHL shipments to the USA arriving within 3-4 days, EMS always takes quite a bit longer.


----------



## dannie01

I can say is I have had some discrete OPAmp ordered from Kingwa and it's arrived in the next day, yeah, I'm in Hong Kong so I can have the fastest courier service provided 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 and of course, the wonderful service from Kingwa and Cherry.


----------



## Yikes

Well there's no turning back now. My payment has been sent. Now it's a waiting game. I absolutely hate waiting for new toys, especially once they're paid for.

 T-Minus 6 days until shipping.

 I'm on the east coast so I'm expecting later as opposed to sooner. My anticipated ETA is Monday June 29th, hardly time for impressions to be gathered and posted before the Promotional discount expires. Perhaps someone on the east coat will receive theirs by Friday the 26th, that would allow some initial impressions before the discount expires.

 And me without a single set of high quality headphones in the house to use with the freaking thing 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I might end up listening with my Westone 3's 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. I'm not very hopeful that J&R is going to ship my Denon AH-D7000's in time.

 In any case it looks like two weeks and counting


----------



## lmswjm

Just ordered the Phoenix yesterday, Kingwa says will ship early July.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well there's no turning back now. My payment has been sent. Now it's a waiting game. I absolutely hate waiting for new toys, especially once they're paid for.

 T-Minus 6 days until shipping.

 I'm on the east coast so I'm expecting later as opposed to sooner. My anticipated ETA is Monday June 29th, hardly time for impressions to be gathered and posted before the Promotional discount expires. Perhaps someone on the east coat will receive theirs by Friday the 26th, that would allow some initial impressions before the discount expires.

 And me without a single set of high quality headphones in the house to use with the freaking thing 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I might end up listening with my Westone 3's 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. I'm not very hopeful that J&R is going to ship my Denon AH-D7000's in time.

 In any case it looks like two weeks and counting 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Well I'm in Los Angeles so I should get it quickly then. Maybe if I look hard enough I can even see China from the shoreline. Hey, it worked for Sarah Palin with Russia. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 BTW, congrats on your purchase, fellow Phoenix owner-to-be.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *martook* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well, I wasn't really that clear about it, but the quote is a google translation of something he wrote on his forum, so we shouldn't really blame his english for that mess 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 hmm... FLAC -> good soundcard -> DAC (like ref1) -> phoenix

 I wonder why that wouldn't be good enough for him. Possibly replacing the soundcard with his USB converter when that's available...


 I'd have to say that the Ref1 is a tad too expensive for me though, how do you think the DAC-9 MK3 would fair in comparison?_

 



 After hearing the vast differences in SQ between the CD7/RE1 combo and my computer transport first hand I agree with his concern. My computer transport doesn't cut the mustard (not even close). 

 Peete.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_After hearing the vast differences in SQ between the CD7/RE1 combo and my computer transport first hand I agree with his concern. My computer transport doesn't cut the mustard (not even close). 

 Peete._

 

That's not a fair comparison, Peete. The CD-7 uses CAST outputs, the soundcard does not. But you're correct, soundcards suck as transports, bitperfect or not. They are affected by too much noise from the computer.

 My SB Duet w/ regulated power supply from CIAudio and custom DC cables from Locus Design group is an excellent transport (but it tops out at 16/44.1). Before I upgraded the clock in my DAC though, I could hear the differences when I used different AC power cords or DC power cords with the SB Duet. But now with the Superclock 4-S in the DAC, neither optical nor coax make any audible difference (and I can switch between the two on the fly). The Superclock 4-S also reclocks to < 2ps. The REF1 is rated at what, 50ps, which is what the PS Audio DL3 was when it was stock. Even though 50ps is a low level of jitter, the DAC will still pick up the jitter from the transport and will result in an audible difference. It is much harder to hear any difference when the jitter is reduced to < 2ps. I'm not saying it's the only factor because it's not, but it makes a huge difference.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Agreed PJ....I believe that 50ps figure is based upon the RCA COAX input for the RE1. The way the signal is processed by the DSP chip is another factor. The BNC input is supposed to be 10X less jitter than the SPDIF input which would put the RE1 into the 5ps range. Apparently jitter is rejected quite differently with the Cyclone II chip. I don't quite understand the explanation of it at the website but it has to do with keeping the signal 100% phase correct. At any rate it seems to work..
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The wild card is the CAST out of the CD7 that you point out. It's the first spinner in the world to do this. Whatever or however Kingwa has figured out how to do this the result speaks for itself. Hat's off to Kingwa for this innovation.

 Let me rephrase my earlier statement slightly. An ordinary SC based computer transport won't be good enough.

 Peete.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Let me rephrase my earlier statement slightly. An ordinary SC based computer transport won't be good enough._

 











 I'll tell you what.... now just get Kingwa to invent a computer-based transport with CAST outputs and he'll have a real winner on his hands.


----------



## XXII

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's not a fair comparison, Peete. The CD-7 uses CAST outputs, the soundcard does not. But you're correct, soundcards suck as transports, bitperfect or not. They are affected by too much noise from the computer._

 

I must admit I am utterly confused. If CAST is a digital connection, why are there CAST inputs on the Phoenix??


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *XXII* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I must admit I am utterly confused. If CAST is a digital connection, why are there CAST inputs on the Phoenix??_

 

<scratche chin> 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I dunno, maybe it works with both digital and analog? It stands for Current Audio Signal Transmission. So maybe it can be either/or.


----------



## Drosera

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *XXII* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I must admit I am utterly confused. If CAST is a digital connection, why are there CAST inputs on the Phoenix??_

 

Uhm, yeah, it is a bit confusing. 

 But no, CAST is not a digital connection, CAST is a protocol for signal transmission that has the signal 'encoded' as modulations in the current (as opposed to modulations of voltage, as is commonly done in audio). Saying the CD-7 works in CAST refers (as far as I know) to the signal transmission used *within* the CD-7, I don't think the actual digital output is in CAST-format, but simply ordinary S/PDIF. 

 CAST can be used to relay an analog signal between components if both components have that feature. So that's why the Phoenix has CAST inputs, to receive an analog CAST signal from one of the Audio-gd DACs for example (or possibly a Krell component, if they are compatible). 

 I don't actually think that even the Audio-gd DACs would be able to receive a digital CAST-S/PDIF signal (where the signal would be a current-modulation), I think that would destroy the receiver-chip.

 But if someone knows more about this, feel free to correct me on it!


----------



## XXII

From what I read above, Pricklely Peete is talking about connecting his CD-7 transport to his REF-1 DAC via CAST output. Have I misread something?


----------



## Drosera

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *XXII* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_From what I read above, Pricklely Peete is talking about connecting his CD-7 transport to his REF-1 DAC via CAST output. Have I misread something?_

 

No, you haven't misread, but (again AFAIK) it refers to the one output of the CD7 that employs CAST circuitry. There are four digital outputs on the CD-7 and they are connected to different output circuits (providing different 'colours' of digital signal).

 But now I should let Peete do the rest of the explanation, just in case I'm talking completely out of my posterior.


----------



## haloxt

Putting my computer on a power conditioner makes it a much more tolerable transport, it's a Dell PSU though and I doubt anything can pass as much unclean electricity as that.


----------



## punk_guy182

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_










 I'll tell you what.... now just get Kingwa to invent a computer-based transport with CAST outputs and he'll have a real winner on his hands._

 

I'd very much would like to see that also since I mainly use computer audio.


----------



## Yikes

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Agreed PJ....I believe that 50ps figure is based upon the RCA COAX input for the RE1. The way the signal is processed by the DSP chip is another factor. The BNC input is supposed to be 10X less jitter than the SPDIF input which would put the RE1 into the 5ps range. Apparently jitter is rejected quite differently with the Cyclone II chip. I don't quite understand the explanation of it at the website but it has to do with keeping the signal 100% phase correct. At any rate it seems to work..
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 The wild card is the CAST out of the CD7 that you point out. It's the first spinner in the world to do this. Whatever or however Kingwa has figured out how to do this the result speaks for itself. Hat's off to Kingwa for this innovation.

 Let me rephrase my earlier statement slightly. An ordinary SC based computer transport won't be good enough.

 Peete._

 

Just to be clear; The TOS input along with the RCA and BNC inputs are all SPDIF. BNC is a slightly Superior digital connection than RCA's because BNC provide a supposedly true 75 ohm connection (Although there is one supplier who does in fact make a 75 Ohm RCA connector). With short (less than 2 meter) digital cables the impedance mismatch with RCA's does not dramatically impact the performance. I believe that Kingwa is incorrect in his claim that the BNC connection yields a 10X improvement with measured Jitter. I am in fact sure of it. Yes BNC is better, but it's not anywhere near the difference that Kingwa claims. I also read on these forums somewhere that Kingwa claims that AES/EBU is inferior to SPDIF. This is also not entirely true. properly implemented AES/EBU (110 Ohm XLR) is widely considered the best normally used digital connection.

 Digital connections in order of performance.

 ST Fiber optic - Best (Too bad it's no longer used, it was very expensive)
 AES/EBU - Next best (When used for CD use. When transmitting greater than 20 bit word length BNC is Superior)
 BNC SPDIF
 RCA SPDIF
 TOS Link SPDIF - by far the worst of the lot

 The middle three are all fairly close in performance, meaning that AES/EBU is about as much better than BNC as BNC is better than RCA (Nothing like Kingwa's claimed 10X advantage. This claimed 10X advantage reeks of hyperbole. I would love to see his measurements that back up this claim, because I'm fairly certain that I can get documentation that shows otherwise.

 The Audio-Gd DAC's have SPDIF BNC and SPDIF RCA inputs. This is a standard that does not confirm to what is normally considered CAST. So Kingwa's claims that the CD7's BNC outputs are CAST and that they will work with 99% of the DAC's on the market rings untrue. A digital output could be done in CAST, but it would not be compatible with SPDIF inputs. It would in all likelihood damage the SPDIF input circuit of the DAC.

 I must admit that I would be more comfortable with my Phoenix purchase if Audio-Gd didn't make claims that I believe to be at best mistaken.


----------



## punk_guy182

This is very interesting information and it backs up what Dan Lavry said about AES/EBU being better than RCA.


----------



## glitch39

I know this is a long shot and no one has heard the phoenix yet, but does anyone know or may have asked Kingwa if the sound signature of the phoenix is identical to the C-2C?

 I like the C2C signature and am tempted to run two of those as balanced (or get the phoenix instead, of course)


----------



## tim3320070

You are still dealing with the same power supplies in the C2C which is a big part of the Phoenix potential- just as much of the Ref-1's quality centers around the power supply components. I am so damn tempted to do an all Audio-gd system, so impressed am I. I only hesitate because I'm not sure how big an improvement the Phoenix would offer over the C-2C.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *glitch39* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I know this is a long shot and no one has heard the phoenix yet, but does anyone know or may have asked Kingwa if the sound signature of the phoenix is identical to the C-2C?

 I like the C2C signature and am tempted to run two of those as balanced (or get the phoenix instead, of course)_

 

Hi Glitch,
 If you are considering either route, you need to jump quick. The cost of (2) C-2Cs is a long way towards a Phonenix cash wise. Not to mention I got no idea how you would pull off balancing them. The Phoenix has no Volume Pot in the signal path and servo switched inputs. In addition to being a serious Preamp. You can get your cash back for the C-2C. You will be welcomed with open arms into the Phoenix Fraternity. Query Kingwa directly about your question. _He's the only one who has heard both of them!_

 .


----------



## Currawong

I have to wonder why discussion on the Ref 1 ends up here, and the Phoenix in the Compass thread and....anyway... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just to be clear; The TOS input along with the RCA and BNC inputs are all SPDIF. BNC is a slightly Superior digital connection than RCA's because BNC provide a supposedly true 75 ohm connection (Although there is one supplier who does in fact make a 75 Ohm RCA connector). With short (less than 2 meter) digital cables the impedance mismatch with RCA's does not dramatically impact the performance. I believe that Kingwa is incorrect in his claim that the BNC connection yields a 10X improvement with measured Jitter. I am in fact sure of it. Yes BNC is better, but it's not anywhere near the difference that Kingwa claims. I also read on these forums somewhere that Kingwa claims that AES/EBU is inferior to SPDIF. This is also not entirely true. properly implemented AES/EBU (110 Ohm XLR) is widely considered the best normally used digital connection.

 Digital connections in order of performance.

 ST Fiber optic - Best (Too bad it's no longer used, it was very expensive)
 AES/EBU - Next best (When used for CD use. When transmitting greater than 20 bit word length BNC is Superior)
 BNC SPDIF
 RCA SPDIF
 TOS Link SPDIF - by far the worst of the lot

 The middle three are all fairly close in performance, meaning that AES/EBU is about as much better than BNC as BNC is better than RCA (Nothing like Kingwa's claimed 10X advantage. This claimed 10X advantage reeks of hyperbole. I would love to see his measurements that back up this claim, because I'm fairly certain that I can get documentation that shows otherwise.

 The Audio-Gd DAC's have SPDIF BNC and SPDIF RCA inputs. This is a standard that does not confirm to what is normally considered CAST. So Kingwa's claims that the CD7's BNC outputs are CAST and that they will work with 99% of the DAC's on the market rings untrue. A digital output could be done in CAST, but it would not be compatible with SPDIF inputs. It would in all likelihood damage the SPDIF input circuit of the DAC.

 I must admit that I would be more comfortable with my Phoenix purchase if Audio-Gd didn't make claims that I believe to be at best mistaken._

 

Excuse me from coming to his defense, but from my experience, Kingwa doesn't write hyperbole or BS to sell stuff. If he measured a high amount of jitter with AES/EBU, then he measured a high amount of jitter with AES/EBU and chose not to use it. He refused to put an optical connection in my Ref 1 (though later reneged with another customer) because it would require installing a switch, which he believes will compromise the SQ. It's not beyond him putting in every connection possible, flashing lights and anything else you like on a DAC either, but he doesn't. Does this sound like someone making wild claims trying to sell you stuff?

 However, if you have issue with what he says about his designs, I suggest emailing and asking him for specifics or clarification. He's always been willing to explain his actions and reasoning.


----------



## Yikes

The DAC were mentioned a few posts ago.

 He may have measured less jitter, but his claim that BNC has 10X less jitter than RCA is not correct. The BNC connection is a little better, not orders of magnitude better.

 Currawong, You must own stock or something because you are Audio-Gd's biggest proponent on Head-Fi
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. You need not worry, Kingwa already has my money 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I actually like his designs a great deal, but I calls them as I sees them. His jitter claims are preposterous, or at least the magnitudes are, and his description of the application of CAST for Digital output from his transport that is somehow magically compatible with standard SPDIF inputs also rings false. IMHO anyway. The Phoenix looks great, and if I didn't already have a killer DAC I'd be seriously considering the RE1.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The DAC were mentioned a few posts ago.

 He may have measured less jitter, but his claim that BNC has 10X less jitter than RCA is not correct. The BNC connection is a little better, not orders of magnitude better._

 

I agree, those numbers do sound a bit farfetched, but I am no engineer so without any proof I wouldn't challenge the figures. What I think he means is that WITH HIS DESIGNS the jitter has the potential to be 10 times less with BNC. Maybe the DSP chips and CAST circuitry he uses are far more susceptible to clock issues and jitter than other chips used by other manufacturers. That is the impression I have gotten from his statements on how much difference certain connections make.


----------



## lmswjm

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ I also read on these forums somewhere that Kingwa claims that AES/EBU is inferior to SPDIF. This is also not entirely true. properly implemented AES/EBU (110 Ohm XLR) is widely considered the best normally used digital connection.

 Digital connections in order of performance.

 ST Fiber optic - Best (Too bad it's no longer used, it was very expensive)
 AES/EBU - Next best (When used for CD use. When transmitting greater than 20 bit word length BNC is Superior)
 BNC SPDIF
 RCA SPDIF
 TOS Link SPDIF - by far the worst of the lot

 The middle three are all fairly close in performance, meaning that AES/EBU is about as much better than BNC as BNC is better than RCA (Nothing like Kingwa's claimed 10X advantage. This claimed 10X advantage reeks of hyperbole. I would love to see his measurements that back up this claim, because I'm fairly certain that I can get documentation that shows otherwise.
_

 

I record music with a Crane Song HEDD 192 AD/DA converter (also doubles as my HiFi DAC for now). The designer, Dave Hill, also recommends AES/EBU as the premiere connection.


----------



## Yikes

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ What I think he means is that WITH HIS DESIGNS the jitter has the potential to be 10 times less with BNC. Maybe the DSP chips and CAST circuitry he uses are far more susceptible to clock issues and jitter than other chips used by other manufacturers. That is the impression I have gotten from his statements on how much difference certain connections make._

 

The only difference between a SPDIF BNC connection and a RCA SPDIF Connection is the connectors. BNC's come closer to the 75 ohm ideal. I'm not saying that his DAC's are not great, it's just that he does come up with some BS about some stuff.

 Please remember that I have purchased a Phoenix, I'm not a Kingwa basher. Since I am not in the market for a DAC I'm not going to grill Kingwa concerning the veracity of his claims.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Yikes and PJ,

 I'm only passing along what Kingwa told me (of what I understood of it). I do notice the CAST BNC out of the CD7 is a cut above the regular output. The actual jitter measurements etc etc....I have no idea what the actual numbers are. I used the info provided on the A-gd website to extrapolate what I posted earlier.

 The language barrier is a tough obstacle to getting clear explanations but I do agree with Curra's point. Kingwa isn't subject to hyperbole or grandiose claims when it comes to his gear (IMO anyway) and his descriptions of his gear's attributes SQ wise is right on the money. I sincerely believe he's incapable of being anything but honest, often times understating things.

 At any rate I prefer BNC and can hear the improvement it brings. How much of that improvement is tied up with the CD7's unique digital output section and the RE1's equally unique DSP1 input section is a difficult to narrow down.

 What I do know is the CD7/RE1 as a source is pretty impressive.

 Peete.


----------



## punk_guy182

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm not saying that his DAC's are not great, it's just that he does come up with some BS about some stuff.

 Please remember that I have purchased a Phoenix, I'm not a Kingwa basher. Since I am not in the market for a DAC I'm not going to grill Kingwa concerning the veracity of his claims._

 

I think that Kingwa should have the chance to explain his findings regarding jitter and the different input/output formats. Only after that we can judge if he is BSing us or not. In the mean time, I suggest that soemeone, perhaps Yikes asks him the questions.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The only difference between a SPDIF BNC connection and a RCA SPDIF Connection is the connectors. BNC's come closer to the 75 ohm ideal. I'm not saying that his DAC's are not great, it's just that he does come up with some BS about some stuff.

 Please remember that I have purchased a Phoenix, I'm not a Kingwa basher. Since I am not in the market for a DAC I'm not going to grill Kingwa concerning the veracity of his claims._

 

Not quite Yikes. I'm fairly certain BNC is compression fit, the preferred method for digital cabling. 

 Peete.


----------



## Yikes

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Not quite Yikes. I'm fairly certain BNC is compression fit, the preferred method for digital cabling. 

 Peete._

 

I have no idea why you say "Not quite" I clearly state that BNC terminated digital cables come closer to the 75 ohm ideal (Not all BNC's are compression fit/Crimped), and anyone with half a brain can infer that it is preferred over RCA terminated digital cables. However AES/EBU is preferred over BNC and RCA SPDIF. I have no issue with Kingwa encouraging the use of BNC SPDIF cables because they are better than an identical cable terminated with RCA's. What I have issue with is his preposterous claim that BNC's have a 10X advantage over RCA and AES/EBU connections.

 Once the Phoenix begins shipping this thread should be returned to Phoenix related topics.


----------



## punk_guy182

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What I have issue with is his preposterous claim that BNC's have a 10X advantage over RCA and AES/EBU connections._

 

Regarding AES/EBU jitter, I don't remember reading anywhere what you are saying. Kingwa said that there was more jitter with AES/EBU but not 10times more.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


 PUNK GUY 
 Regarding AES/EBU jitter, I don't remember reading anywhere what you are saying. Kingwa said that there was more jitter with AES/EBU but not 10times more. 
 

You have a penchant for inaccuracy at times. Perhaps you should read before you post.

 Here's the line he's referring to from the REF 1 page, and I see why he's pointing it out.

  Quote:


 7. Input Method: BNC coaxial and RCA coaxial inputs are available. Jitter of BNC coaxial input is 10 times less than RCA coaxial and AES/EBU , 20 times less than TA&T Optial input. 
 

.


----------



## glitch39

Back to the amp topic.... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I've always been a tube guy.... but I am ready to try good SS balanced gear.

 who's the first to get his/her phoenix? Want to hear opnions.... so I can quickly compare to a balanced B22.....


----------



## punk_guy182

I think we'll have those impressions coming out not before the 25th.
 I used to be a tube guy but I like SS sound better. However, I sometimes miss the tube sound. I'm more picky about tube amps and I'd rather invest in a very good one. Details are what's the most important and tubes amps at least the Little Dot ones seem to to lack in this area.


----------



## ServinginEcuador

I have one question about the amp's design:

 Does the signal come into the rear of the power supply box, get fed up to the amp box, then routed back to the power supply box to the headphone?


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ServinginEcuador* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have one question about the amp's design:

 Does the signal come into the rear of the power supply box, get fed up to the amp box, then routed back to the power supply box to the headphone?_

 

I understand why you are confused. The selector and Vol control are on the Power Supply. Because of how the Input selector and vol control works, they can be setup that way. That's why there is a DATA connection between the two boxes.

 The signal comes into the Box with the inputs and is routed and amplified in that box.

 .


----------



## ServinginEcuador

Thanks Les! It looked a little confusing with the two-box design with the input and volume on the other box, but now it makes sense. It also made my choice harder as this looks like a serious contender to many other high-end amps - but the main caveat being such a low cost point for a truly balanced & single-ended amp.

 Hopefully someone gets a review up before the June 30th deadline for the $1000 deal.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ServinginEcuador* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks Les! It looked a little confusing with the two-box design with the input and volume on the other box, but now it makes sense. It also made my choice harder as this looks like a serious contender to many other high-end amps - but the main caveat being such a low cost point for a truly balanced & single-ended amp.

 Hopefully someone gets a review up before the June 30th deadline for the $1000 deal._

 

Yeah, I wish Kingwa would run the Promo for another month so that some reviews would come in.

 .


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ServinginEcuador* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have one question about the amp's design:

 Does the signal come into the rear of the power supply box, get fed up to the amp box, then routed back to the power supply box to the headphone?_

 

At least this amp you'll have a chance to hear at the meet. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (see Phonitor thread)


 I'm also hoping to have some custom DC cables made for the Phonitor eventually. I wonder if they will make a difference. I would imagine so since all other AC and DC cables I've had or heard have made a difference, whether for better or worse.


----------



## Currawong

I'll post what impressions I can when mine arrives, but I'll only be able to compare it to the C2C, which you'll have to read Skylab's review of to get an idea where it sits in the scheme of things.


----------



## Edwood

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ServinginEcuador* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks Les! It looked a little confusing with the two-box design with the input and volume on the other box, but now it makes sense. It also made my choice harder as this looks like a serious contender to many other high-end amps - but the main caveat being such a low cost point for a truly balanced & single-ended amp.
_

 

Yeah, the Phoenix's two box configuration is pretty unique. I like the overall form factor and configuration. Interesting with the Power supply and "brains" of the amp are in the upper section. I noticed there is an underside pic of the amp board.






 Looks like these boards are the volume control section? Looks like two banks of relays. 

 Overall internal layout looks very nice. Now how it sounds remains to be seen (heard). 

 -Ed


----------



## Pricklely Peete

My situation is similar to Curra's as far as having something of note to compare it to but that is where PJ and his forthcoming mini meet comes in 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The shipping dates approach.......

 Peete.


----------



## Drosera

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_but that is where PJ and his forthcoming mini meet comes in 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Uhm, yes..., "mini" is a relative term, apparently. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Personally, I would especially like to read impressions of the ALO Audio Amphora vs. the Phoenix. Sort of the underdesigned approach to headphone amps compared to the overdesigned approach.


----------



## Yikes

I received an email from Cherry at Audio-Gd saying that my address is a "Remote" area and that DHL would cost an extra $22. so she suggested using EMS which would not cost extra. The Address that I had given is my Business address. I sent her my home address which is 7 miles away from my business address. Amazingly DHL will deliver to my home address, but they want an extra $22 to deliver to work only 7 miles away
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 What this does mean is that they are doing the prep work for the upcoming shipment


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Drosera* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Uhm, yes..., "mini" is a relative term, apparently. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Personally, I would especially like to read impressions of the ALO Audio Amphora vs. the Phoenix. Sort of the underdesigned approach to headphone amps compared to the overdesigned approach._

 

I'll play along.

 Here's the Amphora Review thread for those in dire need of entertainment, make sure you read at least the first three pages.

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f5/rev...ne-amp-423217/

 If you're interested, these Gems are starting to show up in the FS Forum.

 .


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I received an email from Cherry at Audio-Gd saying that my address is a "Remote" area and that DHL would cost an extra $22. so she suggested using EMS which would not cost extra. The Address that I had given is my Business address. I sent her my home address which is 7 miles away from my business address. Amazingly DHL will deliver to my home address, but they want an extra $22 to deliver to work only 7 miles away
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 What this does mean is that they are doing the prep work for the upcoming shipment 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Where do you Live? Coudersport?






 .


----------



## Townyj

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'll play along.

 Here's the Amphora Review thread for those in dire need of entertainment, make sure you read at least the first three pages.

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f5/rev...ne-amp-423217/

 If you're interested, these Gems are starting to show up in the FS Forum.

 ._

 


 Oh i see what your doing here  Attacking the Amphora again lol. Just like the HD800 is showing up there aswell.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Townyj* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Oh i see what your doing here  Attacking the Amphora again lol. Just like the HD800 is showing up there aswell. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Well the Amphora is what it is. That 9 volt killer Amp! I will admit that comparing it to the Phoenix is a COMPARE AND A CONTRAST of everything imaginable. I can't imagine a more disparate comparison of Engineering, Philosophy or Value for Money Proposition. 

 .


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Drosera* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Uhm, yes..., "mini" is a relative term, apparently. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Personally, I would especially like to read impressions of the ALO Audio Amphora vs. the Phoenix. Sort of the underdesigned approach to headphone amps compared to the overdesigned approach._

 

Hehe. Yeah, it's not so mini any more. Never really was. That's why it's a Mini Mega meet. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The Amphora is excellent with the HD800. I was pleasantly surprised. Ken is sending us one for the meet, and hopefully the fully loaded Isabella as well. I wouldn't knock it, Les.


----------



## haloxt

What's probably going to happen is people are going to hear flaws in their system or recording and blame it on the Phoenix ^^. I gots me popcorn ready for WWIII.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hehe. Yeah, it's not so mini any more. Never really was. That's why it's a Mini Mega meet. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The Amphora is excellent with the HD800. I was pleasantly surprised. Ken is sending us one for the meet, and hopefully the fully loaded Isabella as well. I wouldn't knock it, Les._

 

I'm sure it's fine for a single Chip Amp...

 .


----------



## Currawong

n/m...


----------



## DoYouRight

I am interested in this vs the B22 Balanced 6 board build. Cant wait for info.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DoYouRight* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am interested in this vs the B22 Balanced 6 board build. Cant wait for info._

 

I was also doing a BOM for a 6 Board B22 when this was announced as well. Now it's been shoved down on my to do list since seeing this amp. I'll probably do it in the future, but this amp should suffice in the meantime.

 .


----------



## lmswjm

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just to be clear; The TOS input along with the RCA and BNC inputs are all SPDIF. BNC is a slightly Superior digital connection than RCA's because BNC provide a supposedly true 75 ohm connection (Although there is one supplier who does in fact make a 75 Ohm RCA connector). With short (less than 2 meter) digital cables the impedance mismatch with RCA's does not dramatically impact the performance. I believe that Kingwa is incorrect in his claim that the BNC connection yields a 10X improvement with measured Jitter. I am in fact sure of it. Yes BNC is better, but it's not anywhere near the difference that Kingwa claims. I also read on these forums somewhere that Kingwa claims that AES/EBU is inferior to SPDIF. This is also not entirely true. properly implemented AES/EBU (110 Ohm XLR) is widely considered the best normally used digital connection.

 Digital connections in order of performance.

 ST Fiber optic - Best (Too bad it's no longer used, it was very expensive)
 AES/EBU - Next best (When used for CD use. When transmitting greater than 20 bit word length BNC is Superior)
 BNC SPDIF
 RCA SPDIF
 TOS Link SPDIF - by far the worst of the lot

 The middle three are all fairly close in performance, meaning that AES/EBU is about as much better than BNC as BNC is better than RCA (Nothing like Kingwa's claimed 10X advantage. This claimed 10X advantage reeks of hyperbole. I would love to see his measurements that back up this claim, because I'm fairly certain that I can get documentation that shows otherwise.
_

 

*I have been wondering about this for a few days and couldn't let it go so I asked Kingwa what the deal was:*

 Each designer will preferably either AES or coaxial or optical, I think this depend on the designer style.
 Between AES and coaxial and optical, I find they have different sound style.
 In theory, AES is preferably long distance transmit, they have high level and balance transmit, so if like 10M or 20 M long distance, it is the best of three. But the transmit DSP output signal is single end, it must need a transformer or a IC chips to change the single end signal to XLR, then through the cable transmit to DAC input, here need a transformer to change the signal to single end and fed to DAC receiver.
 You can see here need two transformers to change the signal, and if in home, only transmit 1M distance, the AES excellence can't apply.
 From I experience , the transformers of AES are easy to offer some tubelike sound than direct .
 I like to use BNC than other. BNC coaxial cable is the cheapest , cheap than optical and AES cable, and BNC sound more real, but the cable less than 1.5M is better.
 So there are some option, like AES suit long distance and coaxial suit short distance and optical suit avoid the electric connect.
 But in design and listen, different peoples will please of one of them.
 Kingwa

*I didn't bother to ask Kingwa about BNC being 10x's better than RCA. My thinking is that one order of magnitude difference on a small scale may not indicate a significant difference. Kingwa has my trust.*


----------



## punk_guy182

This corroborates what Dan Lavry said about AES being better on very long distances.


----------



## fdhfdy

still no users?


----------



## Yikes

First units ship tomorrow.


----------



## haloxt

Yikes, did you ever ask Kingwa those questions you had?


----------



## fdhfdy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_First units ship tomorrow._

 

Thanks. 
 Finally. Looking forward a nice write up from the first user


----------



## ServinginEcuador

Finally talked myself into the amp and sent the payment a few minutes ago. Guess it's now a waiting game to see just how good it sounds. At least I'll have the flexibility to run many different cans (SE and balanced) from the same unit.


----------



## DoYouRight

Bold


----------



## dannie01

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_First units ship tomorrow._

 

Thanks Yikes, wondering who's the lucky guy to have this first unit and awaiting the impression, it's really attractive.


----------



## Currawong

Annoyingly, I'm going to have to return my HD-800's for an exchange. Though I'll be able to try mine with balanced HD-600s, the whole purpose of getting it will be defeated until the 800's come back.


----------



## LaidBack

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Annoyingly, I'm going to have to return my HD-800's for an exchange. Though I'll be able to try mine with balanced HD-600s, the whole purpose of getting it will be defeated until the 800's come back._

 

Sorry to hear about that. What's going on with your HD-800's ?


----------



## DoYouRight

Currawong you prefer the Phoenix over a Balanced B22?


----------



## Yikes

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *lmswjm* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*I have been wondering about this for a few days and couldn't let it go so I asked Kingwa what the deal was:*

 Each designer will preferably either AES or coaxial or optical, I think this depend on the designer style.
 Between AES and coaxial and optical, I find they have different sound style.
 In theory, AES is preferably long distance transmit, they have high level and balance transmit, so if like 10M or 20 M long distance, it is the best of three. But the transmit DSP output signal is single end, it must need a transformer or a IC chips to change the single end signal to XLR, then through the cable transmit to DAC input, here need a transformer to change the signal to single end and fed to DAC receiver.
 You can see here need two transformers to change the signal, and if in home, only transmit 1M distance, the AES excellence can't apply.
 From I experience , the transformers of AES are easy to offer some tubelike sound than direct .
*I like to use BNC than other. BNC coaxial cable is the cheapest , cheap than optical and AES cable*, and BNC sound more real, but the cable less than 1.5M is better.
 So there are some option, like AES suit long distance and coaxial suit short distance and optical suit avoid the electric connect.
 But in design and listen, different peoples will please of one of them.
 Kingwa

*I didn't bother to ask Kingwa about BNC being 10x's better than RCA. My thinking is that one order of magnitude difference on a small scale may not indicate a significant difference. Kingwa has my trust.*_

 

I believe the real reason (_*in red*_) has been revealed. I don't criticize Kingwa's using or recommending BNC over RCA and TOS because it is actually better (Slightly). I also don't criticize his omission of AES/EBU because it is less used and more expensive to properly implement. What I do criticize is his gross exaggeration of the levels of difference in Jitter performance between his recommended input (BNC) and the other available inputs. His statement that BNC has 10x less jitter than RCA and AES/EBU is untrue, and he is using it as a selling point.

 I'm not saying that Kingwa's designs are in anyway less than stellar. I have purchased a Phoenix, and if I were in the market for a DAC the Reference One would be very high up on my list. I do object to what amounts to gross exaggeration in his justification for recommending BNC over RCA and AES/EBU.

 Thinking that an order of magnitude is not a significant difference just plain puzzles me. If Kingwa had said that he recommends BNC because it's a better connection than RCA I'd have no problem with it, because it's the truth (Although it is not better than AES/EBU), but I do have issue with his claim that BNC has 10X less Jitter than either RCA or AES/EBU because everything that I have ever read states otherwise. From everything that I have read Kingwa's designs appear to be exceptional, so why BS as far as BNC's superiority in the Jitter department? I just find his claim a little bizarre.

 As I have previously stated. I am not in the market for a DAC, so I have not asked Kingwa about his DAC or his claims stated on the DAC's web page.


----------



## Yikes

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DoYouRight* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Currawong you prefer the Phoenix over a Balanced B22?_

 

I believe that at this point no one has actually heard the Phoenix so expressing a preference is a bit premature.

 People will probably start receiving their Phoenix's late next week. Does anyone who has ordered a Phoenix actually have a B22 with which to compare it to?

 I will be bringing my Phoenix to the NJ meet on July 25th. I also would assume that IPodPJ will bring his Phoenix to the LA mini Meet on July 11th.


----------



## Currawong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DoYouRight* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Currawong you prefer the Phoenix over a Balanced B22?_

 

Nobody has a Phoenix and I've not ever encountered a B22 so I'd have no idea.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ His statement that BNC has 10x less jitter than RCA and AES/EBU is untrue, and he is using it as a selling point._

 

How do you know this? If he measured 10x the jitter on RCA, then it's true. If you think he's lying, ask him to provide full details of the measurements he made. I'd like to see the results too, including pictures of the waveform output of the digital signal with each connection too. Anyway, this is in the wrong thread.


----------



## Yikes

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How do you know this? If he measured 10x the jitter on RCA, then it's true. If you think he's lying, ask him to provide full details of the measurements he made. I'd like to see the results too, including pictures of the waveform output of the digital signal with each connection too. Anyway, this is in the wrong thread._

 

I know it because I have seen Jitter measurements done on various formats with other equipment and there are differences but not even 2x, so his claim of 10X sounds bogus. If he measured 10X difference between RCA and BNC something was seriously wrong because RCA and BNC uses the exact same input circuitry and the connectors do not make anywhere near that level of difference. If you are so bothered by my statements you ask Kingwa for documentation. Since I am not in the market I am not going to ask him. 

 As to it being the wrong thread, what are you the thread police? I believe that since Audio-gd makes the Phoenix and I am writing about Audio-gd's marketing claims that it is appropriate here or in any thread having to do with Audio-gd products.

 I am not slamming Kingwa or his products, how many times do I have to say that I like his products, but I am not a rabid fanboy that believes everything that Kingwa utters. If you want to defend his honor then ask him for documentation, but even with measurements done on his equipment I will still be able to come back with measurements comparing jitter performance of the various digital connections performed on other equipment that differs to such a great degree with it that his claims would still be suspect.


----------



## Currawong

I personally don't care. Anyway, I asked him, because a single email to solve this is better than more thread silliness in the _wrong thread_. 

 I can see though that you're not interested in the truth of the matter (even if that truth might be that he was wrong), only accusing him of lying and calling me, indirectly, a rabid fanboy.

 I really honest to God am ****ing sick of the attitude of some people here, where they are more interested in ego gratification and attacking people and their motives than enjoying music, and where there is technical info, to actually know the truth, to the point that I'm considering just not posting at all any longer.


----------



## Currawong

The reply:

  Quote:


 I from 1988 years start built gears, But I think I real start at 1995, because before 1995 years, I usually copy some design of other brand.
 Since 2000 years, that time I worked for a power plant, I worked 32 hours a week, so I have a lot time to practise.
 Around 2003 I test the jitter of different transmit. I build the AES buffer (apply single end input XLR output transformer, another is apply SM2142), coaxial buffer,optical transmit.
 I test the jitter of them, follow this :
 Signal--> buffer--> sockets-->cable-->sockets-->receiver-->test
 I post the result, and some Chinese web and engineers validate and excerpt, if you have a Chinese friend, you can ask him find a some same article in some Chinese web.
 I think if for the long transmit, AES is best.
 But short tranmit, AES not have preponderance, AES work band is much less than BNC, and it most /must apply two transformers ( one output and one input, some case will apply IC chips like SM2142 insteed the output transformers ), transformers is non-linearity parts, it also make against for jitter.
 I don't have the photos of 2003 years test, but I will find some time to re-build the AES buffer to re-test compare to coaxial,optical then take some photos.
 I said BNC is less 10X times jitter than other, there are not mean BNC has 100PS then other has 1000PS.
 For example, I mean,the original has 100PS, if BNC has extra 2 PS jitter,(totaly 102PS) then other has 20PS (totaly 120PS). 
 Finally, In design, even AES or coaxial or optical, the technology difficulty is same, we can make coaxial output, we also can make AES or optical output at same cost, there is not secret in technology.
 But now I use the current transmit of CDP, several hundred Chinese and Hongkong users( they buy our CDP or the modification kit) compare to coaxial or AES, and please the upgrade.
 Kingwa 
 

So there you have your "10x less", which isn't the same as 10x as much, which appears to me to be what you were assuming he was saying. Why you couldn't just direct your comments at him, via email, in the first place, I don't understand. It's as bad as the "when is my Compass going to ship" posts, which are equally as pointless and mis-directed.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fdhfdy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks. 
 Finally. Looking forward a nice write up from the first user_

 

That will probably be me since I'm in the first batch and in Los Angeles which is the closest spot to China from the U.S, and also a major port of entry into the country.

 Based on the experience I've had with DHL before, I'm not expecting a miracle but if Kingwa says 3 - 5 days, I'll be THRILLED if it shows up by Friday. Anything before then and I'll really be super giddy like a teenage girl who made out with her very first boyfriend. Okay, well I'm just exaggerating there. I don't get as excited about this stuff as I used to. When you get to such a high level of equipment quality and cost in your system, you expect the item to be good but are really unhappy if it isn't.


----------



## Yikes

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I personally don't care. Anyway, I asked him, because a single email to solve this is better than more thread silliness in the wrong thread. 

 I can see though that you're not interested in the truth of the matter (even if that truth might be that he was wrong), only accusing him of lying and calling me, indirectly, a rabid fanboy.

 I really honest to God am ****ing sick of the attitude of some people here, where they are more interested in ego gratification and attacking people and their motives than enjoying music, and where there is technical info, to actually know the truth, to the point that I'm considering just not posting at all any longer. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The reply:

 So there you have your "10x less", which isn't the same as 10x as much, which appears to me to be what you were assuming he was saying. Why you couldn't in the first place just direct your comments at him, via email, in the first place, I don't understand. It's as bad as the "when is my Compass going to ship" posts, which are equally as pointless and mis-directed._

 

This is a discussion forum, that's what I do. The way I see his figures is: A BNC has a 15% better jitter figure. This holds with my previous experience. I still think that Kingwa should change the line on the website to something like BNC enjoys a 15% better Jitter figure than RCA, but whatever....

 People can post whatever they want, when is my Phoenix going to ship is rhetorical. If someone really wanted to know they would email Audio-gd.

 The fact is that you are the very definition of Fanboy as far as Audio-gd is concerned. If anyone says anything that could remotely be considered negative you are there defending Audio-gd like a rabid little chihuahua.
 You've been a member for 1 & 1/2 years and have almost 2600 posts. Over 410 of them in 5 threads about Audio-gd products, that's in 5 threads all about Audio-gd. I couldn't be bothered to go through all of your posts, but I'd bet better than 25% of them are specifically Audio-gd related. You absolutely are a Audio-Gd Fanboy. There's nothing wrong with it, just a fact. What it does mean however is that as far as Audio-gd goes you have lost all of your objectivity. 

 I personally don't appreciate a relative Noob telling me or anyone else what they can or can't post. The really hilarious thing is that I'm sort of a fan of Audio-gd also, but you can't see that. All you see is that I had an issue with one little thing written on their website, and you go nuts.

 Fair enough.

 Now I have another reason that I hope that I like my Phoenix. If I don't like it and I post about it you might put out a hit on me.


----------



## Currawong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ I still think that Kingwa should change the line on the website to something like BNC enjoys a 15% better Jitter figure than RCA, but whatever...._

 

This is a good idea.

  Quote:


 People can post whatever they want, when is my Phoenix going to ship is rhetorical. If someone really wanted to know they would email Audio-gd. 
 

Unfortunately people don't use common sense. Neither did you. That is my point. It goes the same for any topic, I don't think people use common sense.

  Quote:


 The fact is that you are the very definition of Fanboy as far as Audio-gd is concerned. If anyone says anything that could remotely be considered negative you are there defending Audio-gd like a rabid little chihuahua.
 You've been a member for 1 & 1/2 years and have almost 2600 posts. Over 410 of them in 5 threads about Audio-gd products, that's in 5 threads all about Audio-gd. I couldn't be bothered to go through all of your posts, but I'd bet better than 25% of them are specifically Audio-gd related. You absolutely are a Audio-Gd Fanboy. There's nothing wrong with it, just a fact. What it does mean however is that as far as Audio-gd goes you have lost all of your objectivity. 
 

I've been through this before. If I ranted on about Stax, which I've posted a fair bit about, then you'd see I have posted a lot about them too, as well as all the other gear I've owned. I started the Compass project, so naturally I post a lot in the Compass thread. Funnily enough, I almost never use mine! I was actually using other gear (Stax and Northstar) when the Compass was made. I was actually the first to critisise Kingwa for a couple of things he now doesn't do, including using poor headphone jacks and less than high quality cases on his cheaper gear, and I have been critical where it will make the most difference, via email, when I think he has done something poor. Other people have done this too, and the result is always positive. I do this because a: I am responsible for starting a lot of discussion on Audio-gd gear and so feel some responsibility to ensure that, as people become interested in it, they aren't dissapointed because of a: misinformation, and b: quality below what people expect on Head-fi. If I had the email address of the president of Sennheiser, I'd be emailing him too right now, rather more than posting about my HD-800s, because more than anything, I want to have quality gear that works as well as possible.

 You'll actually find me to be quite a bit anti-fanboy, because I've been a Mac user since I was a child and have seen the worst of fanboyism online. About Audio-gd, I do believe that Kingwa has a lot of integrity, along with other people I've encountered such as Dan Lavry and Tyll Herstens and I believe I can see the relative strengths and weaknesses in what Kingwa does, as I have been able to see the same in Apple's designs from experience. Back to the topic though, there was a lot of discussion of jitter in another thread about digital connections, and it was equally maddening to me, because I wanted to know specifically about jitter, but people were talking about the benefits of the ground in AES/EBU, even after I tried to be specific, as I'm trying to find out myself how to get the best sound out of my rig possible. It was especially maddening, as Dan Lavry was posting a lot of detailed and useful info, the likes of which I have rarely ever seen on Head-fi.

  Quote:


 I personally don't appreciate a relative Noob telling me or anyone else what they can or can't post. The really hilarious thing is that I'm sort of a fan of Audio-gd also, but you can't see that. All you see is that I had an issue with one little thing written on their website, and you go nuts. 
 

I didn't have an issue with your criticism, I had issue in how it was directed. Like other people, you seemed only interested in criticising, not finding the truth of the matter. You'll find me critical of this attitude in many places on many subjects, not just in this thread. You'd find me equally critical if someone posts incorrectly about science, or if someone starts a witch-hunt thread on someone (such as those about bad trades) who isn't around to defend themselves. 

 Anyway, sorry for the brutality in the replies, but too much of the HD-800 threads and other silliness is starting to get to me.


----------



## punk_guy182

I suggest that both of you Currawong and Yikes takes this personnal argument through the private messaging channel.
 Now let's get back to the topic of the Phoenix headphone amp.


----------



## LaidBack




----------



## haloxt

Guys, why so serious? Obviously Yikes doesn't have an email address so it was necessary for someone to ask Yikes' questions for him.


----------



## IPodPJ

Cherry told me last night that the first batch have been delivered to DHL.

 I asked them to also send me Audio-gd's exclusive power cord and Shark balanced interconnects but she said the package went out and would have to wait until next week for the cables and cord. So then I said okay. Then she told me she got DHL to hold my package so she could bring them my cables today. So I told her it must still go out today and I have not heard a response back. I'm hoping it did. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The reason I bought their cables and cords is because that is what the Phoenix was tested and designed with. Therefore I feel those are the cords I should try to see how Kingwa intended it to sound. Power cords make a big difference in my home and there are substantial variances in sound with each cord.


----------



## haloxt

They don't give pics or much info on the sharkwire used, I got some very recently and the wire model was SP18122G. Only the connectors are monster brand so don't panic about that, but I think it's rather fitting because these cables look like thick pink monsters 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.









 SP18122G
 R : 41/0.12mm/FPE
 w: 54/0.12mm/FPE
 40µS-BRAID/FOIL
 O.D 9.0mm

40Âµin SILVER PLATED OFC CABLE-SHARK electric wire completes the world of audio


----------



## Yikes

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ This is a good idea._

 

OK, now if only a few countries in the Middle East could agree as easily. 
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Unfortunately people don't use common sense. Neither did you. That is my point. It goes the same for any topic, I don't think people use common sense._

 

You're expecting people to post confirming to your version of common sense, what I post does adhere to my definition of common sense. Besides Common Sense is usually neither. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've been through this before. If I ranted on about Stax, which I've posted a fair bit about, then you'd see I have posted a lot about them too, as well as all the other gear I've owned. ._

 

 So what you're saying here is that you are prone to FanBoyisim 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. FanBoyisim is similar to Alcoholism in that the first step to a cure is admitting the problem, and you're just not there, yet
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 OK, you're not a Fanboy, you're Enthusiastic.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ I do this because a: I am responsible for starting a lot of discussion on Audio-gd gear and so feel some responsibility to ensure that, as people become interested in it, they aren't dissapointed because of a: misinformation,._

 

Then you should be applauding my bringing out the 10X issue. 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ I want to have quality gear that works as well as possible._

 

 Don't we all.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ About Audio-gd, I do believe that Kingwa has a lot of integrity, along with other people I've encountered such as Dan Lavry and Tyll Herstens_

 

I too believe that Kingwa has integrity, otherwise I would not be buying a Phoenix from him. 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ Back to the topic though, there was a lot of discussion of jitter in another thread about digital connections, and it was equally maddening to me, because I wanted to know specifically about jitter, but people were talking about the benefits of the ground in AES/EBU, even after I tried to be specific, as I'm trying to find out myself how to get the best sound out of my rig possible. It was especially maddening, as Dan Lavry was posting a lot of detailed and useful info, the likes of which I have rarely ever seen on Head-fi._

 

 It looks to me as if you try to control the conversation, and when it doesn't go your way you get upset.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ I didn't have an issue with your criticism, I had issue in how it was directed. Like other people, you seemed only interested in criticising, not finding the truth of the matter. You'll find me critical of this attitude in many places on many subjects, not just in this thread. You'd find me equally critical if someone posts incorrectly about science, or if someone starts a witch-hunt thread on someone (such as those about bad trades) who isn't around to defend themselves._

 

 The 10x issue is about the truth. If at some point I said or even implied that Kingwa was lying then I was wrong. It's more a interpretation and language issue as opposed to a purposeful attempt to mislead.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Anyway, sorry for the brutality in the replies, but too much of the HD-800 threads and other silliness is starting to get to me._

 

No worries, and I am sorry about the Noob crack. It is true that you've been a member for less time than I have, but that has no barring on your experience. You are an experienced Head-Fier and I value your opinion, even while we are disagreeing over a minor matter.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *punk_guy182* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I suggest that both of you Currawong and Yikes takes this personnal argument through the private messaging channel.
 Now let's get back to the topic of the Phoenix headphone amp._

 

At the moment there isn't any Phoenix discussion to speak of so who's this discussion hurting? Once Phoenix impressions are flying hot and furious I promise not to thread crap.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LaidBack* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_



_

 

Obviously someone is enjoying the discussion.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Guys, why so serious? Obviously Yikes doesn't have an email address so it was necessary for someone to ask Yikes' questions for him._

 

 Huh.....
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 And since it appears that shipping has commenced I am done beating this horse.


----------



## punk_guy182

Anyway! back to the topic.
 It's the first time I hear about balanced interconnects. I guess it would be a good idea to get a pair if they were especially used to test the phoenix. Has anyone tried balanced interconnects? are they worth it?


----------



## haloxt

IPodPJ, did audio-gd really say the Phoenix was tested and designed with those shark interconnects?

 punk, you need a balanced dac to use the balanced cables. As for if the shark wires are worth it vs. stock, I don't know, still burning in mine and haven't given the stock ones listening/burn-in yet. They're pretty cheap though, 21.50 for a pair.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Yikes...the way you have treated others in this thread of late has been shabby to say the least. You were not treated like this so can you answer me why you felt it necessary to stoop to this level ?

 Peete.


----------



## punk_guy182

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yikes...the way you have treated others in this thread of late has been shabby to say the least. You were not treated like this so can you answer me why you felt it necessary to stoop to this level ?

 Peete._

 

This will lead to endless arguments and posts and I don't think this is the place for this kind of discussion. I suggest that personal arguments be kept in private channels.
 Back to the Phoenix...


----------



## Currawong

Peete: Don't worry about it.

 I have expensive interconnects and believe they were worth it, but very preferably bought second-hand, as when bought new, about half the price is profit alone. Otherwise, I am interested to see if I can, somewhere down the track, DIY some to match the performance for much less.


----------



## DoYouRight

Thats my goal as well, I am curious if selling my B22 stuff and buying a Phoenix would be a better idea. Due to chassis cost. But I really would like my own build. But we will see how this compares to a balanced b22


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_IPodPJ, did audio-gd really say the Phoenix was tested and designed with those shark interconnects?_

 

No, I'm lying. I just like to make up stuff for the fun of it. It's an easy way to rack up points. You should try it to. Everyone's doing it these days. It's the new "in" craze. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Of course they said that. That's why I bought a pair of balanced Shark interconnects and their power cord. I had no idea that they were pink though. If that's so, why would anyone create a pink cable? Fugggggggglllllyyyyy!!!!


----------



## Zorlac

Guess I better put my money down this week before I miss out on the special pricing that ends at the end of the month. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 My headphones are on their way back from HeadAmp as well!!!


----------



## LaidBack

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Obviously someone is enjoying the discussion._

 

There was A LOT of good info that came out of that exchange. I'm definitely looking into shortening my BNC run now...

 FWIW, the recent shipping of my RE1 via DHL was lightening fast. I won't be surprised at all to hear of guys getting their Phoenix Monday/Tuesday...good times...


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *punk_guy182* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This will lead to endless arguments and posts and I don't think this is the place for this kind of discussion. I suggest that personal arguments be kept in private channels.
 Back to the Phoenix... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

x2. I like hearing all of your impressions and you are both valuable members of this community, but I think the arguments should be kept in private. It looks as though you guys have made amends though. Now just kiss and make up or I will not give you my initial impressions of the Phoenix.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Peete: Don't worry about it.

 I have expensive interconnects and believe they were worth it, but very preferably bought second-hand, as when bought new, about half the price is profit alone. Otherwise, I am interested to see if I can, somewhere down the track, DIY some to match the performance for much less._

 

Ok Curra,PJ and PG, your right. End of discussion.

 Peete.


----------



## Yikes

Audio-gd has yet to update their Consignment page. Has anyone receive shipping info from them yet? It's early tuesday morning there and the amps should be well on their way.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Audio-gd has yet to update their Consignment page. Has anyone receive shipping info from them yet? It's early tuesday morning there and the amps should be well on their way._

 

That's kinda how they do things. You might see them posted tonight, then receive it tomorrow or Wednesday. I think by the time they get them posted and back to their home base, the day is shot. At least that's how it happened with my REF1.

 .


----------



## punk_guy182

They usually don't update automatically. The consingment was updated late tuesday night for my Compy.


----------



## IPodPJ

I have received my tracking number and asked them to update the Consignment page. Of course, I asked them for it which helps.

 They will be updating the consignment page tonight.

 I'm still waiting for my APureSound balanced XLR HD800 cable..... I hope it gets here before the amp or I will be one bummed out cookie.


----------



## insyte

Ah finally they have shipped


----------



## lmswjm

My Phoenix is in the second batch that will be shipping the 28th. What/where is the consignment page?


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *lmswjm* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My Phoenix is in the second batch that will be shipping the 28th. What/where is the consignment page?_

 

ÐÂ½¨ÍøÒ³ 1

 I don't think there is a link to it on their website, but there it is above.


----------



## DoYouRight

Let us know when the first arrives!


----------



## ServinginEcuador

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *lmswjm* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My Phoenix is in the second batch that will be shipping the 28th. What/where is the consignment page?_

 

Did you get an email with this info? I got an email from Cherry, but it didn't have any shipping information.


----------



## Mik

I just got an email from Cherry with my EMS tracking number, so I either mine shipped or is about to.


----------



## Currawong

I've received my tracking number, though they tend to take a few days to become live.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've received my tracking number, though they tend to take a few days to become live._

 

My tracking number is live. Problem is though that it says the weight is 1.1 lbs. That's not much of a Phoenix. Maybe the ashes of one, perhaps. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 DHL says though that that number is what the shipped entered, so I assume it's just an error or they gave me the wrong tracking number.

 Check yours out and see what it says.


----------



## Drosera

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My tracking number is live. Problem is though that it says the weight is 1.1 lbs. That's not much of a Phoenix. Maybe the ashes of one, perhaps. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 DHL says though that that number is what the shipped entered, so I assume it's just an error or they gave me the wrong tracking number.

 Check yours out and see what it says._

 

Hm, could be a mistake by DHL too... I've never seen them indicate the weight really correctly. A good way to check if it's being sent to the right address is to sign up for DHL updates by email (they have several different services for this, I believe). You will probably get an email from DHL then that will include the full address of the shipment's destination.


----------



## IPodPJ

Just got a shipment update. It has now departed the facility. Yay! Funny though how it lists the destination incorrectly. It says Van Nuys, CA 91311. Well, my zip code is 91311 but I'm in Chatsworth, not Van Nuys. DHL is obviously not accurate like FedEx or UPS.

 I'm just happy to know it's on its way!

 Edit: I just called DHL and it is guaranteed to my location in 2 business days, WOW! It is Tuesday the 23rd right now in China so it is guaranteed here in Los Angeles by Thursday the 25th. Awesome. I'll have it Thursday! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 That means you guys who haven't ordered will get impressions with plenty of time to still place your order for the lower price. Now, I should have my balanced APureSound cable by then but if for some reason I don't, the only initial impressions you will be getting from me will be with a single ended connection. That does well to compare to the quality of the Phonitor since the Phonitor has balanced inputs but only a single ended headphone output, but the Phoenix is designed as a balanced headphone amp so those are the impressions I'm mostly concerned with.


----------



## IPodPJ

More news. I asked Kingwa the following:

 "I have a question for Kingwa. I know he offered all REF1 customers a free board upgrade.
 If the Phoenix also needs to be upgraded in the future will he offer free upgrades too?

 Thank you."

 Here was his reply:

 "Dear Philip,
 Phoenix is base our C3SE design, we design C3 and sale since 2006, so it is very mature.

 If in near months I upgrade the SQ of Phoenix, we will offer the upgrade.But I can't upgrade the Phoenix in my mind now.
 Kingwa"

 This to me is good news. It basically states as of now he knows of no upgrade to make it any better. But if he does in the future, he will offer it.

 Thursday will tell if it's swell or gone to sell. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Well, I need more time to ring that final bell, or else I'll have to quell those unhappy Head-Fiers who want to put me in hell.


----------



## haloxt

I'll probably stay SE until you guys think balanced is much better, bought new blue dragon hardwiring cable but afraid to test my soldering ^^.


----------



## Yikes

I also received my tracking info. DHL allows email and sms tracking updates, so that updates are sent as the system is updated.

 The first batch is 10 Phoenix's
 6 to the USA
 2 to Canada 
 1 to Japan
 1 to Czech Republic, CR Representing!


----------



## TStewart422




----------



## glitch39

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'll probably stay SE until you guys think balanced is much better, bought new blue dragon hardwiring cable but afraid to test my soldering ^^._

 

with all things being equal, balanced is definitely way better - improved soundstage, noise floor, FR, etc.

 however, balanced for the sake of going balanced is not necessarily better - some SE designs are still better that recent balanced offerings


----------



## glitch39

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I also received my tracking info. DHL allows email and sms tracking updates, so that updates are sent as the system is updated.

 The first batch is 10 Phoenix's
 6 to the USA
 2 to Canada 
 1 to Japan
 1 to Czech Republic, CR Representing!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

out of these 10, can the first recipient please send us a quick (uninformal) impression check? A lot of us are waiting on the sidelines for such comments and would jump on the June 30th promo deadline if the results are positively worth it.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *glitch39* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_out of these 10, can the first recipient please send us a quick (uninformal) impression check? A lot of us are waiting on the sidelines for such comments and would jump on the June 30th promo deadline if the results are positively worth it._

 

I already said I would.


 My amp departed Hong Kong today and is still on schedule for Thursday delivery.

 Yikes, call DHL up and ask them when your scheduled delivery is.

 I just did a mm to inch conversion and now see that each one of these chassis is not very big. 9.84 inches wide, 3.15 inches tall and 14.17 inches deep. I like the fact that it's a fairly compact package.


----------



## glitch39

I may have missed it in the spec sheet - but how much power does the phoenix make on a 
 2 x 2v RMS input?

 Edit: found it!

 Output Power 

 25 ohm: 1000MW
 62 ohm: 2500MW
 100 ohm: 3000MW
 300 ohm: 1800MW
 600 ohm: 900MW 

*Phoenix specs*


----------



## Yikes

I really don't think that you should rely on any opinions posted by any new owner for at least the first few weeks. This tends to be the Honeymoon period, and emotions are running very high.

 Initial opinions that can usually be trusted:
 Fit and Finish
 Functionality

 Initial opinions that cannot be trusted (Except for mine......kidding)
 Sound Quality - For several reasons initial sound quality impressions are severely suspect. 

 Break-In - Some equipment does take considerable time to reach it's peak. 
 I've owned equipment that took up-wards of 1000 hours to reach it's potential. Specifically; a friend brought his preamp over and I was totally bowled over by it's sound quality in my system. I purchased the same model and was shocked how inferior it sounded. He brought his preamp back over and it was markedly better. The manufacturer told me about the long break-in, so I played it for a month straight. It seemed to get better, my friend brought his back over and it was much closer. Ultimately after a few months of playback it was every bit as good as my friends.

 The other reason is the new equipment Glow. No matter how hard we try to be objective we can't get over the excitement of a new toy. We've just spent over a thousand dollars, and we really want to have not waisted all that money, so we are predisposed to like the new toy. We really want to like it.

 All the other early buyers and I have decided that no matter what the amp sound like we are going to rave about how good it is. If it ultimately works out that the amp is that good, great! we've told the truth about it. If it ultimately works out that the amp sucks big time...... Well let's just say that misery loves company 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




_[size=xx-small]Do I really need to call attention to the fact that the last paragraph was total B.S.[/size]_


----------



## Yikes

Ha..Ha...Ha!!!!! 

 I just called DHL and they told me that it is scheduled for delivery TOMORROW! Wednesday. I find that difficult to believe, but I'm going to stay home and be there to receive it.

 Damn! That's fast.


----------



## seacard

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_All the other early buyers and I have decided that no matter what the amp sound like we are going to rave about how good it is. If it ultimately works out that the amp is that good, great! we've told the truth about it. If it ultimately works out that the amp sucks big time...... Well let's just say that misery loves company 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




[size=xx-small]Do I really need to call attention to the fact that the last paragraph was total B.S.[/size]_

 

Sadly, not B.S. at all. We have lengthy "appreciation" threads for products before they are released; "teams" get together to glorify a brand or a product; members claim that $1000 digital cables make a "night and day" difference, rendering previously-praised products unlistenable (ok, that last one is not just here but all subjective audio web-sites and publications).


----------



## Yikes

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *seacard* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sadly, not B.S. at all. We have lengthy "appreciation" threads for products before they are released; "teams" get together to glorify a brand or a product; members claim that $1000 digital cables make a "night and day" difference, rendering previously-praised products unlistenable (ok, that last one is not just here but all subjective audio web-sites and publications)._

 

Sorry it is B.S. at least to the point that we have not colluded to deceive. This thread is about a highly anticipated product, some people have pushed the Phoenix as already being in the running as the best Solid State Amplifier. This is absolute conjecture. You haven't seen me writing about how good it is, at best I write about my hope that it'll be great. I have purchased one based upon the features, circuit, and appearance. I have expectations, and I certainly hope that I didn't waist my money. We'll see.

 I try very hard to not be a Fanboy, and not add to the FOTM syndrome.


----------



## Edwood

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ha..Ha...Ha!!!!! 

 I just called DHL and they told me that it is scheduled for delivery TOMORROW! Wednesday. I find that difficult to believe, but I'm going to stay home and be there to receive it.

 Damn! That's fast. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Wow. Might have to opt for DHL international next time when I have the choice.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

I don't think anyone has pushed this amp as being the best.....people have alluded that it might or could be the best but I don't take any stock in any of that until I've heard it myself _*and*_ over many months. 

 That being said a first impression as long as it's billed as such, is just that, a first impression.

 Peete.

 EDIT: I also agree with the sensible burn in estimate that Yikes has proffered and would like to add that it's entirely likely that 1K hours may or may not be enough time. For instance the RE1 took around 1.2K hours to finally settle (give or take 100 hours as I lost track of the exact amount at some point in the process).


----------



## seacard

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sorry it is B.S. at least to the point that we have not colluded to deceive. This thread is about a highly anticipated product, some people have pushed the Phoenix as already being in the running as the best Solid State Amplifier. This is absolute conjecture. You haven't seen me writing about how good it is, at best I write about my hope that it'll be great. I have purchased one based upon the features, circuit, and appearance. I have expectations, and I certainly hope that I didn't waist my money. We'll see.

 I try very hard to not be a Fanboy, and not add to the FOTM syndrome._

 

My post was a bit tongue-in-cheek, and absolutely not directed at you or anybody in this thread or any particular product. More of a general observation. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 And I definitely agree that there is no *collusion *to deceive by any posters here (at least, I would hope that's true).

 In any event, I am looking forward to impressions as much as the next guy as I'm looking to purchase a solid-state amp for an HD800 and really hope this is a good one.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ha..Ha...Ha!!!!! 

 I just called DHL and they told me that it is scheduled for delivery TOMORROW! Wednesday. I find that difficult to believe, but I'm going to stay home and be there to receive it.

 Damn! That's fast. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

How the heck are you going to receive yours before me? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 You're in PA and I'm in CA.

 Oh, maybe mine was held back a day to add the power cord and cables to the package.

 But I do hope you receive it tomorrow and let us all know if it meets, exceeds, or falls short of your expectations.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

It sure is nice to see this amp shipping (after a lengthy gestation period)...now comes the fun part ! 

 Who will get theirs first, Yikes or PJ ?

 I'm thinking it's a 50/50 shot with customs being the wild card. 

 Did Kingwa mention how many hours each unit received during QC ? I'm thinking 100 hours like other gear......but it would be nice to know definitively.

 Peete.


----------



## Edwood

I wouldn't worry about customs. Stuff flies through customs in LA.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Edwood* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I wouldn't worry about customs. Stuff flies through customs in LA._

 

Lucky bastards 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Canada Customs has wised up (this year) it would seem...it was bound to happen at some point...even for them 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Peete.


----------



## Yikes

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How the heck are you going to receive yours before me? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 You're in PA and I'm in CA.

 Oh, maybe mine was held back a day to add the power cord and cables to the package.

 But I do hope you receive it tomorrow and let us all know if it meets, exceeds, or falls short of your expectations._

 

Maybe the shipment came the other way around the world, who knows?

 I'm trying to figure out how I can stay home to receive the shipment. I will certainly post my impressions concerning fit and finish. I'm waiting to receive a set balanced GS1000's (A generous loan) and until they get here I have no headphone to use. I will likely put it in my bedroom system where I can run it in 24/7 as a preamp. If the headphones show up I'll give it a listen.


----------



## lmswjm

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ServinginEcuador* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Did you get an email with this info? I got an email from Cherry, but it didn't have any shipping information._

 

"We plan to ship the second branch of phoenix at 28th.
 You can make the payment now or wait to see the first branch users' reviwe,then decide if to order the phoenix."


----------



## lmswjm

Has anyone sent payment as a gift to save the 4%?


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *lmswjm* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Has anyone sent payment as a gift to save the 4%?_

 

That's my new favorite trick. Did it on the Phoenix. You will have to let A-GD know that's what you did. They didn't understand at first.

 .


----------



## IPodPJ

I just received this e-mail from Cherry out of the blue:

 "Dear Philip,
 Because Phoenix apply the aluminium foot , if users want to stack or side by side place ,don't let the foot and classis box or two classis box direct be joined .
 Cherry"

 I assume they mean chassis. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 So why are they saying this when they show in the picture that the two are stacked? Are they concerned that the aluminum will conduct ground noise through the both of the boxes?


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just received this e-mail from Cherry out of the blue:

 "Dear Philip,
 Because Phoenix apply the aluminium foot , if users want to stack or side by side place ,don't let the foot and classis box or two classis box direct be joined .
 Cherry"

 I assume they mean chassis. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 So why are they saying this when they show in the picture that the two are stacked? Are they concerned that the aluminum will conduct ground noise through the both of the boxes?_

 

Sounds like Ground loop/Isolation issues. The 2 Chassis can't touch. Ignore those Glamor Shots on the Website.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sounds like Ground loop/Isolation issues. The 2 Chassis can't touch. Ignore those Glamor Shots on the Website._

 

Is this a defect in the Phoenix? I've seen plenty of equipment that can be stacked.

 What should I put under the feet if I want to stack them? Maybe Kingwa should have used cork or solid maple wood for feet, heck, even rubber pads like lots of equipment has.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Something definitely lost in translation there (and yes I got the same email as well).

 I don't plan on stacking (side by side yes, but not touching). I think a further clarification is needed. PJ I don't think it's a defect.

 Peete.


----------



## Currawong

I asked Kingwa to clarify about the feet: He said his Chinese customers didn't think that the rubber they put on the bottom of the feet sounded as good (!!). So it means that if you take the rubber on the bottom of the feet off, then the feet could potentially scratch whatever they are put on, such as if you stack them.

 As for impressions when it arrives, I can only compare it to the C2C really, and how much better it is than that. If it's as un-coloured as my Ref 1, and "straight wire with gain" in tonality, then we're going to be rating our sources a bit as well I imagine. How well it drives headphones will be important.


----------



## IPodPJ

That doesn't make sense Currawong because he said not only about stacking but the two side by side shouldn't touch either. That sounds to me like there is a ground noise/isolation problem.

 Sounds to me like we'll be modding the amps with wooden footsies.


----------



## Edwood

The advice to not touch the two boxes side by side is because you don't want AC ground and DC ground getting tied together improperly. It's more of a precaution than anything, as anodized surface of aluminum is not known to be a good conductor.


  Quote:


 He said his Chinese customers didn't think that the rubber they put on the bottom of the feet sounded as good (!!). 
 

This part makes no sense. If anything you want rubber rather than bare aluminum to reduce resonance and other vibrations. Bare metal would only make sense if they were metal spikes.

 As for the feet in the pics, are the very bottom parts aluminum as well? From the pics it looks like there are small rubber feet at the very bottom of the aluminum feet, which would make the most sense. You can see tape on the bottom of the feet in the pics, though. Would be a poor choice if the very bottoms of the feet are solid aluminum. 






 I would plan on stacking them vertically as shown in the pics.


----------



## IPodPJ

Kingwa must be following this thread. I just received this:

 "Dear Sir,
 While we ship Phoenix, we have install a small rubber in the bottom of the feet,If you take off these rubber and you want to stack Phoenix, put a thin paper to isolation two box is ok.
 Cherry"


----------



## Edwood

Is the "small rubber" a stick on rubber dome foot? So the aluminum feet normally have a flat bottom?


----------



## IPodPJ

That's what it looks like. She said they updated the pictures. The bottom chassis is flat with paper underneath it. But why do you need paper underneath the bottom chassis? To prevent scratching perhaps?


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's what it looks like. She said they updated the pictures. The bottom chassis is flat with paper underneath it. But why do you need paper underneath the bottom chassis? To prevent scratching perhaps?_

 

Cover the bases in case you want to stack the units with the output stage on top rather than on the bottom....

 Peete.


----------



## Edwood

I'd still want the same rubber feet on the bottom chassis. If anything to keep it from sliding around, scratching up my table surface.


----------



## IPodPJ

She said we can stack them with the rubber footsies.


----------



## gjkphd

I need a quick clarification. THe 4pin XLR is a standard output and not a high level output for the K1000, correct?


----------



## Pyriel0

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f6/xlr...or-pin-374555/

 When 2x 3 pin xlr's are used, only 2 of the 3 pins per connector carry a signal. A single 4 pin xlr is just easier to use *IMO* and you don't have to worry about splitting/sleeving wires if you reterminate cables to balanced yourself.


----------



## IPodPJ

Yikes, it looks like I may have it tomorrow (Wednesday) also. It already cleared the Los Angeles DHL facility and customs. Awesome. So if they get it out to the Van Nuys facility tonight then I should have it tomorrow. If not, definitely Thursday.


----------



## Currawong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gjkphd* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I need a quick clarification. THe 4pin XLR is a standard output and not a high level output for the K1000, correct?_

 

I didn't think that the K1000 required a huge amount of power, going by the specs, but maybe some more volume considering the distance from your ears.


----------



## Edwood

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I didn't think that the K1000 required a huge amount of power, going by the specs, but maybe some more volume considering the distance from your ears._

 

The K1000's specs are listed at Impedance of 120 Ohms with a power rating of 1000mW; Sensitivity is 74dB.

 Quite power hungry for headphones.


----------



## IPodPJ

74db? Damn, that's low. No wonder they need so much juice.

 Did you order the Phoenix, Ed?


----------



## haloxt

Got it about an hour ago, been trying to set it up. Anyone know if I can swap the DC outputs cross-crossed? It seems like no power is going into the amp section because I press preamp function it doesn't light up. Emailed the same question to audio-gd.

 Be careful with unwrapping the data cable from the gazillion pieces of tape, there's two small wires running alongside and can easily be cut through. And it's huge and heavy heheh very nice build quality, huge heavy remote and there's an extra bag of all these connectors for some reason. Also, you'll see directional arrows on the pink dc cables, I believe they will give best sound quality when you make the arrows point into dc input. Or that's what I've read about arrows and custom cables.


----------



## punk_guy182

pictures?


----------



## haloxt

Have you seen the bad quality pictures I took of the dac19mk3? Shesh, fine will post pics in ~10 min. What pics you want? Insides or just outside? Not really interested in opening it up especially if someone knows what I'm doing wrong.

 Btw since I have nothing to do I've been looking at the extra connectors, 4 male connectors for making your own dc cables and 4 (I THINK) CAST connectors for making your own cast cables. Cool ^^.


----------



## punk_guy182

Mostly outside. I'd like to see it next to a computer screen or something else. The purpose of my request is to have a general view of how it looks on a desk.


----------



## haloxt

Physical dimensions of dac19mk3 and compass.




 Dac19mk3, Phoenix, remote and extra battery lol.




 8 more pictures, and pics of a dozen pink wires if you can help me find out what I'm doing wrong.
ImageShack© - Gallery

 edit: imageshack randomly deleting pictures


----------



## punk_guy182

Great! man, talk about cables!
 Can you also tell us how it sounds like?


----------



## Pyriel0

The 74 db is at 1 mw. 400mw is about 100db and 1 watt is about 104 db.

 My shanlings running balanced come out to 1.2 watts per channel for 120 ohms and I rarely listen above 6-7 on the volume nob out of 12.

 Edit: http://www.enjoythemusic.com/superio...3/akgk1000.htm
 "Sensitivity: 74dB for 1mW free field"
 "Distortion at 400mW: around 100dB"


----------



## Yikes

Received mine and hooked it up. It's turned on OK. Have you tried the other Data Out jack on the Power Supply. I used the one on the Right (As you look at it from the back, i.e. the opposite one from that which your pictures show you using.) and it fired right up.

 However all is not totally perfect. There is a VERY MINOR extremely low level noise (Fluttering) in the right channel only. It is independent of the input (It's there when the Mute is on). It is absolutely inaudible while any music is playing, but it is audible (At a very low level) when muted or no music is playing. I do not have time to trouble shoot it now. Tonight I will play around with different power and try changing sources and disconnecting sources to see if anything effects the noise. Right now the amp is playing a break-in track into my Westone 3's (at 30 out of 99).

 A Couple of points - Extremely well packed (Too much so on the cables)
 Pictures don't do this amp justice. It is very well built and very attractive.

 I'll troubleshoot and try it as a preamp tonight. I still don't have any real headphones to use it with.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Later


----------



## IPodPJ

Mine got here and was packed very well, included free CAST and DC connectors if we want to make our own cable. Will not have a chance to hook it up until I get home tonight.

 Extremely well built and well packed. I agree with Yikes, cables packaged way too tight. Be careful slicing the tape open as you can easily slice the cables.

 Much more to come tonight.


----------



## Pyriel0

Have you tried using the other lower gain mode yet that is max of 70 instead of 99(i think) to see if it helps/fixes the noise?


----------



## Yikes

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pyriel0* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Have you tried using the other lower gain mode yet that is max of 70 instead of 99(i think) to see if it helps/fixes the noise?_

 

No, the Audio-gd website is down and I didn't print out the directions, However since the noise is there when the amp is muted I doubt that it will make a difference. I will try it though. I'm very thorough with my troubleshooting. I've sent a message to Kingwa with a couple of questions.

 The noise is not a big deal. I am confident that between Audio-gd and my troubleshooting we'll get to the bottom of it and fix the issue.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Physical dimensions of dac19mk3 and compass.




 Dac19mk3, Phoenix, remote and extra battery lol.




 8 more pictures, and pics of a dozen pink wires if you can help me find out what I'm doing wrong.
ImageShack© - Gallery_

 

Mine came with the power button pressed "ON". The website(which is down today) says make sure it is hooked up with the DC cables "First". Don't know if it will hurt it to plug up with the button in. Did you cable it all up before plugging in the MAINS cable? The DC cables need to be seated well. It won't matter which side is which on the DC cables.

 .


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## haloxt

I tried the other data output and no luck 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I think the amp got something dislodged during transportation.

 les_garten, I had everything attached to a power conditioner which had the power switched off. Only turned it on once everything was plugged in and I saw the psu chassis light up.


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## Yikes

Carefully open it up and examine the inside looking for loose wires or parts. Hopefully it'll be something obvious. Good Luck.

 Be sure to disconnect the AC first (To state the obvious)


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## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I tried the other data output and no luck 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I think the amp got something dislodged during transportation.

 les_garten, I had everything attached to a power conditioner which had the power switched off. Only turned it on once everything was plugged in and I saw the psu chassis light up._

 


 Not looking good then. Does the Display light? It should say the Input # on the Left -1 and 10 for the initial volume. I would agree with Yikes, open up both boxes and give everything a look over.

 .


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## Pricklely Peete

haloxt...

 The unit may need to be cycled using the debug option on the back...the procedure for which is on the website which inconveniently, is down at the moment. I wouldn't blindly do anything for the time being until the website comes back online and you can check out the page for debug options.

 Peete.


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## haloxt

les_garten, at least the cool display works ^^.

 I know how to cycle it, well I just came back from 20ish min of looking under the hood. Lol man the psu internals is the craziest looking thing ever and it smells bad -_- but the amp chassis smells rather fragrant for some reason. I'll go put everything back up and recycle the debug mode. I did recycle the 99 to 70 and move volume to 00 and back up just in case but not on/off for memory yet. And I've tried just about every possible cable switching and input 1-5 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## les_garten

Is there anyway we can "ban together" and get Kingwa to quit putting those Paper stickers all over his boxes. It makes his product look amateurish and it takes 30 minutes to clean it all off when you get his gear. He should use a no residue tape if he has to use these labels for routing or logistics management. I thin k my REF1 had 7 pieces of tape on it. The sole purpose of one piece was to cover a hole left by a switch that used to be on the DAC8. A plastic plug would have worked better there.

 The only good thing to come from the tape is that you have all the cleaning stuff out to get the "plastic" marks off the casing, and do a General Cleanup that was needed on all their Gear.

 Presently I am letting it run a little. Couple of things to note.

 The volume knob takes 5 complete turns to go from 0 to 99. Feels like you are rowing a boat. It does give a lot of steps though for sure. Hearing the relays a "clacking" is kinda kewl.

 My GS1000s needed to be run up around 80, it is having problems running them in my opinion.

 I can peg the volume to 99 with my GS1000s no problem.

 The initial volume setting of 70 steps is just not enough. I suspect Yikes has discovered this also since he has switched his to 99 steps.

 First impressions: Gain is Low. I am single ended presently and have tried it with 2 Grados, DT770-80, and Denon D5000. Sold my Senns recently, wish I had them now to test.

 There's some issue with the labeling on the back panel. This product shouldn't have shipped like this. Some of the inputs may have been missing their designators. So the label says IN and there is small Paper sticker that has the number. These should have been held for new back panels IMO.

 Surface Grunge on the display. My Compass was clean. My Ref1 was dinged up a little and fingerprints all over it. The outside of the Phoenix is in Great condition with the exception of the Display and the strange use of tape stickers all over it.

 It has taken a while to warm up, so we'll see how it sounds "later". Presently, my socks are still on my feet.

 I will say I did not like the Ref1 till about a week later. It seemed to lack detail and resolution. After 5 days or so, it started showing itself much better. 

 I didn't think I would use the memory function, but it is essential on this box. If you have it come on to zero each turn on, you have to roll the Vol control 1080 degrees to start listening every time you turn it on.

 .


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_les_garten, at least the cool display works ^^.

 I know how to cycle it, well I just came back from 20ish min of looking under the hood. Lol man the psu internals is the craziest looking thing ever and it smells bad -_- but the amp chassis smells rather fragrant for some reason. I'll go put everything back up and recycle the debug mode. I did recycle the 99 to 70 and move volume to 00 and back up just in case but not on/off for memory yet. And I've tried just about every possible cable switching and input 1-5 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





._

 

I would say make sure your source is perfect. Do you have an Ipod with a Line out Dock, or a CD player? Also, you have to get into high numbers on the vol control, have you cranked it enough? I kinda ran into the same thing hooking it up, checked my source, at first I thought no sound. You have to turn the Frack out of that Volume Control.

 .


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## IPodPJ

The gain is low? With the power ratings he provided this amp should be able to blow every driver on every headphone. If I find that to be the case on this amp, it is going back. I specifically asked to make sure it would drive all my headphones to extremely loud levels.

 I haven't even plugged in the amp yet (and won't until I get home later) and already I'm extremely disappointed with what I've read. To have this many problems on everyone's unit is just completely unacceptable and screams of poor quality control.


----------



## haloxt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I would say make sure your source is perfect. Do you have an Ipod with a Line out Dock, or a CD player? Also, you have to get into high numbers on the vol control, have you cranked it enough? I kinda ran into the same thing hooking it up, checked my source, at first I thought no sound. You have to turn the Frack out of that Volume Control.

 ._

 

I'm using optical from my iriver h120 to dac19mk3 to phoenix. I've tried going to max volume at every input and every time I tried switching cables around. Ah well thanks for all the tips guys, I'll just wait for a reply several hours later when they wake up.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The gain is low? With the power ratings he provided this amp should be able to blow every driver on every headphone. If I find that to be the case on this amp, it is going back. I specifically asked to make sure it would drive all my headphones to extremely loud levels.

 I haven't even plugged in the amp yet (and won't until I get home later) and already I'm extremely disappointed with what I've read. To have this many problems on everyone's unit is just completely unacceptable and screams of poor quality control._

 

The stickers aren't important, I keep them on for fun ^^. I don't blame audio-gd for the amp being off at all, there's just so many components inside some things are bound to get dislodged during transportation, but what I have no idea : [ the circuitry is just so complex I get cross-eyed.

 Also I doubt there's a gain problem hehe.


----------



## IPodPJ

I just tried taking off the sticker on the front of the amp. This is ABSOLUTELY UNACCEPTABLE that on a brand new product I have to now scrub this damn thing with lighter fluid to remove this s***. I did not pay this price for amateur levels of quality control. The inputs on the back have stickers on them identifying some of the inputs that obviously weren't labeled during printing.

 The sound quality of this amp better be nothing short of mind-blowing.


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## punk_guy182

While you all have your Phoenix turned on, can you all tell me if the soundstage and details are any good guys


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## ServinginEcuador

I'm one slightly negative comment away from cancelling my order! So far I'm not at all impressed, and am concerned that Audio-gd is going to have to fix some QC issues before their next batch goes out. That could take a while, and I'm not sure I want to be in on the next level of experimentation.


----------



## IPodPJ

Do we have any impressions on sound quality yet?


----------



## tim3320070

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ServinginEcuador* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm one slightly negative comment away from cancelling my order! So far I'm not at all impressed, and am concerned that Audio-gd is going to have to fix some QC issues before their next batch goes out. That could take a while, and I'm not sure I want to be in on the next level of experimentation._

 

Whoa- some stickers and an undiagnosed flutter in one unit? Let's wait and see maybe?


----------



## boomana

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Do we have any impressions on sound quality yet?_

 

Don't you have one?


----------



## les_garten

Starting to form up an impression of the SQ. It has a strong bass presence. This is the first amp that shows me what others have complained about with un-mod'd D5000s. The bass on some things like Clapton unplugged "Before you Accuse me" seems a little Bloated and Wooly. It has never sounded that way on the Denons before, but others have stated some things to that affect.

 I have some Chinese Drum tracks that have impact like I've never heard before with this amp. Also small detail in the Drum Reverbs I had not heard before. 

 There is definitely Bass extension I haven't heard on my other gear. The soundstaging of the mids is really nice as well. I played some Aaron Neveille that was very haunting in the Imaging and soundstaging.

 My First impressions were made with the amp being on about 1/2 hour. It's been on a few hours now and is feeling like a Class A regulated piece of gear, it's well warmed and sounding more detailed. I think it will need a weeks run in before I can say how it sounds. Except that it has tremendous bass effect/impact, I can say that now.

 I was disappointed at first with it, but I think it needed to get warm. Sounded muddy and bloated at first. After getting 'Hot" it sounded a ton better. I was not listening to it as it warmed up, so it was not a getting accustomed to it kind of deal. I listened to it a few minutes at first and then walked away for about 2 hours while it played and heated up.

 The gain deal. I would like to hear some others look into this with some other cans. I'm not used to having to turn something way up. This thing never sounds like it's working though, it could be that it's so clean and background so black that it's loud as hell. The GS1000s suck up a lot more than the Denons do. My Grado 125s suck up a lot too. 

 The volume control is interesting. It takes "about" 5 turns to go from 0 to 99. So the granularity of the control is 6 or 7 times finer than you are used to since it goes full circle when a Vol pot does about 270 degrees. This makes the "GAIN" feel different than you are used to. If you take a normal Vol pot and go from 12:00 to 1:00. On this Vol Pot you would have to go from 12 to 7 to get the same effect. Normal Vol pot is "about" 270 degrees, this one goes 1800 Degrees approx.

 There is some switching noise in the Volume control as it switches the circuit for the Gain. Most noticeable at the top of the scale. Not uncommon for these "types" of controls. 

 One thing you guys know with me, I'll shoot straight on it. If it walks like a Duck, Quacks like a Duck, and Leaves Duck Crap all over the Patio, I ain't gonna call it a Yorkshire Terrier...

 Let's see what develops over the next few days. 

 .


----------



## haloxt

I soldered the male and female balanced connectors, they're very heavy and sturdy and easy to solder. They gave lots of wbt tin too, I decided to drown my conductors. When I'm sure the Phoenix works I'll attach the cables to the headphone.





 Btw, you know those fingertrap toys? That's what the metal shield around the blue dragon cable is lol, no wonder it's so heavy and inflexible.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *boomana* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Don't you have one?_

 

I've already stated that the amp is here at work with me but I won't be home until later when I'll get to try it, which is still 3 or 4 hours away.

 Les,
 How loud does it get with your headphones and how far do you have to turn it up? Also, please state the sensitivity and impedance ratings of your headphones and what number they have to be turned to on the Phoenix. Nice initial impressions though. What do you use to take off the stickers and the sticky residue, lighter fluid? Do you think it will harm the finish on the amp? Each chassis has 3 stickers on it. He did add the switch to turn off the display though.

 My balanced cable won't be here apparently until early next week now, so I won't have a chance to test it balanced until then. Balanced inputs, yes. Balanced out, no.


----------



## tim3320070

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Starting to form up an impression of the SQ. It has a strong bass presence. This is the first amp that shows me what others have complained about with un-mod'd D5000s. The bass on some things like Clapton unplugged "Before you Accuse me" seems a little Bloated and Wooly. It has never sounded that way on the Denons before, but others have stated some things to that affect.

 I have some Chinese Drum tracks that have impact like I've never heard before with this amp. Also small detail in the Drum Reverbs I had not heard before. 

 There is definitely Bass extension I haven't heard on my other gear. The soundstaging of the mids is really nice as well. I played some Aaron Neveille that was very haunting in the Imaging and soundstaging.

 My First impressions were made with the amp being on about 1/2 hour. It's been on a few hours now and is feeling like a Class A regulated piece of gear, it's well warmed and sounding more detailed. I think it will need a weeks run in before I can say how it sounds. Except that it has tremendous bass effect/impact, I can say that now.

 I was disappointed at first with it, but I think it needed to get warm. Sounded muddy and bloated at first. After getting 'Hot" it sounded a ton better. I was not listening to it as it warmed up, so it was not a getting accustomed to it kind of deal. I listened to it a few minutes at first and then walked away for about 2 hours while it played and heated up.

 The gain deal. I would like to hear some others look into this with some other cans. I'm not used to having to turn something way up. This thing never sounds like it's working though, it could be that it's so clean and background so black that it's loud as hell. The GS1000s suck up a lot more than the Denons do. My Grado 125s suck up a lot too. 

 The volume control is interesting. It takes "about" 5 turns to go from 0 to 99. So the granularity of the control is 6 or 7 times finer than you are used to since it goes full circle when a Vol pot does about 270 degrees. This makes the "GAIN" feel different than you are used to. If you take a normal Vol pot and go from 12:00 to 1:00. On this Vol Pot you would have to go from 12 to 7 to get the same effect. Normal Vol pot is "about" 270 degrees, this one goes 1800 Degrees approx.

 There is some switching noise in the Volume control as it switches the circuit for the Gain. Most noticeable at the top of the scale. Not uncommon for these "types" of controls. 

 One thing you guys know with me, I'll shoot straight on it. If it walks like a Duck, Quacks like a Duck, and Leaves Duck Crap all over the Patio, I ain't gonna call it a Yorkshire Terrier...

 Let's see what develops over the next few days. 

 ._

 

I had the same immediate impression of the C-2C, I was disappointed as it sounded muddy, narrow and harsh a bit. After a few hours it sounded much better, maybe it was warm-up or more burn-in needed, I don't know. Also, my volume on the FBI-500 seems to be the same, lots of turns (I don't really care for it to be honest).


----------



## Yikes

Unless I'm mistaken it's not a Volume Pot, it's just the volume control, it tells the relays it's time to switch. I've got no problem with it's feel, I'll be using the handy remote 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The stickers (Especially on the front panel) are annoying, and shouldn't be there.

 They even include a spare battery for the remote (I think.), or maybe for the logic memory, who knows
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The lack of any instructions is unacceptable.

 My amps been playing for 4 hours and I haven't listened since the 15 min mark. I'm going to go see if it's improved, hell maybe with warm up the slight noise I heard has gone away (I'm holding my breath).

 I still say that you buy a product from the very first production run at a promotional discount price and it's very likely to have some issues. At this point I'm not upset about the noise. It's whether Audio-gd takes care of the issues is what really counts, and at this point I have no reason to doubt that they will.

 I'm going to listen to my new toy.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've already stated that the amp is here at work with me but I won't be home until later when I'll get to try it, which is still 3 or 4 hours away.

 Les,
 How loud does it get with your headphones and how far do you have to turn it up? Also, please state the sensitivity and impedance ratings of your headphones and what number they have to be turned to on the Phoenix. Nice initial impressions though. What do you use to take off the stickers and the sticky residue, lighter fluid? Do you think it will harm the finish on the amp? Each chassis has 3 stickers on it. He did add the switch to turn off the display though.

 My balanced cable won't be here apparently until early next week now, so I won't have a chance to test it balanced until then. Balanced inputs, yes. Balanced out, no._

 


 The Denons are 25 ohm and the Grados are 32 ohms, the Beyers are 80. Don't know the sensitivities. All of them need North of 60 on the dial. The most sensitive are the Denons, and they are running at around 65. The Grado 125s need in the 70's and the GS1000s are in the high 80's. So it works, it's just I'm up on the scale. With the stated outputs I didn't think I would need this much "Knob". I would like to hear how Senn 650s do or 600 ohm Beyers.

 I used "Goof Off" and it took the stickers off after scraping the little blighters for 30 minutes with my thumbnail. Lighter fluid won't hurt it, but the Goof off works like a charm. I wiped down the whole case with it to get that Plastic Wrap Pattern off it.

 .


----------



## Pyriel0

I never thought about this until reading the posts regarding how far you guys have to turn it up. Since it is being sold as a balanced amp, the specs are most likely taken in a balanced configuration. That means when you use it single ended you are only getting half the power and half the gain. If the gain is set at a normal headphone level for balanced, you would have to turn it up a lot more for single ended. I would put money on that being the reason why.

 Edit: Actually i think its like 1/4 of the balanced power output and half the gain for single ended.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pyriel0* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I never thought about this until reading the posts regarding how far you guys have to turn it up. Since it is being sold as a balanced amp, the specs are most likely taken in a balanced configuration. That means when you use it single ended you are only getting half the power and half the gain. If the gain is set at a normal headphone level for balanced, you would have to turn it up a lot more for single ended. I would put money on that being the reason why._

 

That's a very good point if true, but still should have been taken into consideration when designing it. But what can I say, I'm a highly critical SOB but will give more than ample praise when warranted. If the SQ is top notch, it will get praise rest assured.


 Yikes,
 What plastic pattern are you referring to? The brushed aluminum look? I don't want to wipe that finish off or damage it in any way, so I hope lighter fluid doesn't do that.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pyriel0* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I never thought about this until reading the posts regarding how far you guys have to turn it up. Since it is being sold as a balanced amp, the specs are most likely taken in a balanced configuration. That means when you use it single ended you are only getting half the power and half the gain. If the gain is set at a normal headphone level for balanced, you would have to turn it up a lot more for single ended. I would put money on that being the reason why._

 

Don't know for sure with the "Current" design he uses, but I suspected that as well when I made the initial observation of the gain and made sure I mentioned I was running it single ended at present.

 A-GD site is back up.

 .


----------



## Mudshark

Wow, interesting stuff, I hope things work out for the early adopters.


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## IPodPJ

On the picture of the back of the Phoenix (shown on the Audio-gd site) all the inputs and outputs are properly screen printed. Why then on the units we received are some of the input numbers missing and covered with stickers, as well as RCA-OUT now spelled PCA-OUT?


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_On the picture of the back of the Phoenix (shown on the Audio-gd site) all the inputs and outputs are properly screen printed. Why then on the units we received are some of the input numbers missing and covered with stickers, as well as RCA-OUT now spelled PCA-OUT?_

 

I was wondering about this as well. Maybe the same guys doing the HF-2s Lettering are doing these 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 .


----------



## Currawong

EMS shows mine to be en-route from Osaka. I hope I get it before the weekend (unlike my HD-800s which went through customs inspection twice). 

 It sounds like Kingwa still doesn't understand well about how important presentation is to foreign customers, from the opening of the box to the un-wrapping of the product. I do remember that people started receiving Compasses with their name on a sticker on the front after a couple of people received theirs with the wrong items included.


----------



## haloxt

Well I really like the stickers because it reminds me it was made just for me ^^. I really don't mind the minor stickers in the back, the reason why the numbers are changed is because they decided to switch inputs 5 and 4. Two problems though, 1. the neutrik jack on the Phoenix is much stronger than the compass' neutrik jack, and 2. why is there so much tape wrapped around the data and DC cables LOL.


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## The Monkey

This amp seems pretty annoying.


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## les_garten

Here's Kingwa's explanation for the Gain question

 Dear Les,
 BTW, the Phoenix is design for XLR/CAST input and balance output to HP.
 If you use RCA input, the gain will drop to 50%, and same time you use single end output, the gain drop 50% again, total only 25% gain.
 Kingwa

 makes sense now, good news.

 .


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## tim3320070

Les, then you better cut that cord on the D5000's and balance her up...


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tim3320070* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Les, then you better cut that cord on the D5000's and balance her up..._

 

Agreed! I've got the connectors. I need to do up the LEMOs on the REF1, build the LEMO cable, and balance the Canz. Got all the connectors, they're looking at me like the Geico wad of Dollars! 

 That answers the gain issue. It definitely was strange that it seemed so down on power. I'm coming in SE and going out SE.

 .


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## tim3320070

I use the cheapo CAST to my FBI-500 and the sound is completely beautiful- you don't have those? You have no XLR's from the Ref-1 to the Phoenix either?


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tim3320070* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I use the cheapo CAST to my FBI-500 and the sound is completely beautiful- you don't have those? You have no XLR's from the Ref-1 to the Phoenix either?_

 

I had the LEMOs installed in mine. Just been too lazy to make up the cable ahead of time.

 On another note. This things runs hotter than the REF1. Faceplate is 113 F and bottom plate is about 119-120F.

 .


----------



## vpivinylspinner

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Here's Kingwa's explanation for the Gain question

 Dear Les,
 BTW, the Phoenix is design for XLR/CAST input and balance output to HP.
 If you use RCA input, the gain will drop to 50%, and same time you use single end output, the gain drop 50% again, total only 25% gain.
 Kingwa

 makes sense now, good news.

 ._

 

Does this mean that if you use the preamp function to connect all your balanced and single ended sources you will potentially see a 50% increase in gain as you switch through inputs with your balanced headphones?


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *vpivinylspinner* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Does this mean that if you use the preamp function to connect all your balanced and single ended sources you will potentially see a 50% increase in gain as you switch through inputs with your balanced headphones?_

 

No, not really. The memory function remembers the Volume for each input separately, and it works as advertised. So if you switch to input 2 it remebers where you left the volume.

 Also everybody will be happy to know it comes with Hello Kitty DC hookup cables. Pretty soon you'll be able to tell the A-GD guys from across the room at meets. All their Cables are PINK.

 I'm working to get the specs on the DC cables, I want to make mine longer so I can separate the Transfo box from the HeadAmp box for heat and RFI/EMI separation.

 .


----------



## vpivinylspinner

So I guess you just have to be careful if you leave it unused and come back to plug a balanced headphone in and listen to an input that remembers your last single ended use.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *vpivinylspinner* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So I guess you just have to be careful if you leave it unused and come back to plug a balanced headphone in and listen to an input that remembers your last single ended use._

 

Heh, well one should be careful using all audio gear! 

 I'm sure that all gear that does SE and Balanced have the same concern. You can also defeat the memory function. Then everytime you turn it on, it starts at Zero.

 .


----------



## les_garten

Here's Kingwa's cable pinout for the DC Power cables. Wanted to post it here for permanence. 

 Dear Les,
 The power box output is current power ( not voltage power), so in theory you can use any long cable.
 But I think as short as best, and some Chinese use the Cadas signal cable to make the power cable and said improve on SQ.
 You need 2 cable+ shield or 3 cable + shield cables is ok.
 The sockets mark 1,2,3,4, 
 1 and 4 is GND,
 2 is + power,
 3 is - power.
 You can't make wrong connect, like input 2 but connect to output 3, these case will break the gears.
 Kingwa

 He didn't give a spec on the gauge but I guess use the biggest you can get in the connector. He sends extra connectors.

 .


----------



## punk_guy182

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Also everybody will be happy to know it comes with Hello Kitty DC hookup cables.._

 

Oh great! I love those.


----------



## haloxt

I found out the problem, I think I manhandled the data cable to death because pins 6 and 7 aren't working. Now to dig for a replacement cable.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I found out the problem, I think I manhandled the data cable to death because pins 6 and 7 aren't working. Now to dig for a replacement cable._

 

Good deal. Let us know what he's rewiring on that cable when you figure it out.

 .


----------



## Yikes

I'm breathing. The slight noise that I wrote about earlier has gone away with warm up. I am running everything SE with upper end Siltech. As I said the only Headphones that I have here are my Westone 3's, and I listen at about 28/99. It's driving them very nicely, but the 3's are nowhere near top tier full size headphone performance.

 So it's thrown in as the preamp in my main speaker rig. It's potentially replacing a Chord CPA-5000 (Not mine, but retails for 28x what I paid for the Phoenix). Surprised! It's not as good as the Chord, and I certainly didn't expect it to be. The preamp output circuits have only been running for a couple of hours so I fully anticipate that it will improve with time. But pretty much brand spanking new it is a legitimate High End preamp. I'm not saying that it's good for a grand, I think that it has the makings of an outright good preamp regardless of cost. As of now the adjectives that I'd use are Big and Bold, with very good bass. The thing that might ruin it for me is the lack of a Balance control. My hearing is a little uneven, this doesn't bother me for headphone listening, but for speaker listening I hate having the image shifted to one side. We'll see if I can adjust.

 The Power Supply runs very Hot, the amplifier unit less so.

 I just got off the phone with John Tucker seeing if he can/will do my XD-1 DAC as balanced. This piece has me toying with the idea. I'm reserving my final opinions until the unit is well broken in, and to be honest it's preamp performance matters much more to me than it's headphone amp performance does. It will be playing about 22 hours out of 24 for the next month before I make a final determination, but so far so good.


----------



## IPodPJ

Les,
 That's great news about the gain. I will be running XLR inputs with SE outputs until my balanced HD800 cable arrives.

 I got it all hooked up and I must say I'm pretty impressed with the build quality and looks of the thing. Even the way the remote looks and functions is great. I'm about to go do my first listen!!

 Something I will note is that the rubber feet are nothing but shark wire sheathing. They work fine on the bottom chassis but on the top chassis, the rubber feet are filed down to the same level as the aluminum foot so they serve absolutely no purpose so I removed them. Right now I have fugitive glue dots with paper stuck to the aluminum feet until I can get some real rubber feet for them.

 Another thing that REALLY pissed me off (and I will demand Kingwa sends me a replacement) is that one of the side panels on the chassis has two scratch marks, or rather gashes in it that were covered up with a Sharpie!!! He must not understand that Americans care so much about the externals, not only the internals. The tape is evidence of that.

 I hope to report back with excellent news in a little while on sound quality. Until then.....


----------



## IPodPJ

Ok, well I want to do much more listening than just 20 minutes but here's my initial impressions:

 - A level of musicality that I've never heard from a solid state amp before.... this amp combines the details of solid state with the musicality of tubes... or that could just be my source, I'm not sure at this point.

 - Balanced inputs are definitely louder and more detailed than single ended. But the volume on SE inputs are no slouch either. This amp has more than enough balls for my HD800 and can drive any headphone to extremely loud levels.

 - Details are superb, even micro-details are able to be heard without being overly analytical.

 - No sibilance at all, a perfect match for the HD800. As I figured, this amp responds well to different power cords. So far I've tried the Audio-gd exclusive power cord and my Locus Design Group Axis. The Axis is much better but it should be, it costs as much as the Phoenix.

 - Anyone who loves tubes will feel at home with this amp. It is so musical and I would say slightly on the warm side. I certainly wouldn't say what I'm hearing is neutral but that could be the fault of my source, again I'm not sure yet.

 - I think I prefer the Phoenix to the Phonitor. However the Phonitor has better soundstaging due to it's speaker angle customization. The soundstage of the Phoenix is not wide nor deep, but very comfortable to listen to. Tonality is warm, sounds very much like the Woo Audio tube amps I heard at CanJam.

 - I can't tell yet what this amp is best at, and it may not be the best in any particular area, but so far I find it to be the most musically-and-detailed-combo solid state amp I've heard overall.... but I need a LOT more listening time to give more accurate impressions.

 - Well worth every penny I paid for this amp. You won't find this level of sound quality or build quality in a headphone amp anywhere close to this price.

 - Volume knob is great, I love the rotary selectors. They do make a somewhat loud clicking noise inside the chassis as they are being rotated when the amp is on, so that must be the relays, but it is not bothersome at all (and I'm super picky). The clicking noise it makes through the headphones (coming out of the drivers) is extremely minimal and stops clicking at around 60 out of 99. My comfortable listening level through SE inputs/SE output is at 55. On balanced input/SE output it's 41, so there isn't much difference in apparent volume to me. I couldn't imagine turning this thing up to 99, it would blow my eardrums out as well as my headphones. Don't try it.

 - This amp gets hot. Luckily, it's really close to my wall unit A/C.

 So Kingwa, you redeemed yourself. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But please, don't put permanent tape on your equipment ever again. Get some removable stickers. I shouldn't have had to spend 30 minutes with Goo Gone removing these things. Please include an instruction manual. Also, I appreciate how well everything was packaged in the foam but stop using so much tape to wrap everything up. We could easily cut through the cables trying to remove the tape. And I know you and Cherry read this thread, so I do expect a replacement right side panel for the headphone output/preamp chassis.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Les,
 That's great news about the gain. I
 <<SNIP>>
 Another thing that REALLY pissed me off (and I will demand Kingwa sends me a replacement) is that one of the side panels on the chassis has two scratch marks, or rather gashes in it that were covered up with a Sharpie!!! He must not understand that Americans care so much about the externals, not only the internals. The tape is evidence of that.

 I hope to report back with excellent news in a little while on sound quality. Until then..... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

No excuse for the sharpie deal. My stance on this is that if you accept this, be prepared to accept it forever, a la Grado. Kingwa will get better if he gets constructive feedback. He is receptive.

 .


----------



## lmswjm

Any & all,
 How many days in transit did the shipping take?


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *lmswjm* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Any & all,
 How many days in transit did the shipping take?_

 

Ship Sunday arrive Wednesday


----------



## Mik

Is the memory function per input or is there just 1 volume memory setting which is applied regardless of input?


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Mik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is the memory function per input or is there just 1 volume memory setting which is applied regardless of input?_

 

Memory is either on or off for all inputs, if that makes sense.

 .


----------



## blessingx

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You won't find this level of sound quality or build quality in a headphone amp anywhere close to this price._

 

PJ, just so we know what you mean when you state this, could you list which amps in the $1K-$1.5K range you haven't spent significant time with?


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Mik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is the memory function per input or is there just 1 volume memory setting which is applied regardless of input?_

 

Each input will remember where the volume was left at.
 If you leave input 1 at 51 and input 2 at 64, both will be at those exact numbers when you turn it back on or switch between inputs.

 But the memory function is either on or off for all inputs, you can not have memory active for one input and not the others.


----------



## punk_guy182

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You won't find this level of sound quality or build quality in a headphone amp anywhere close to this price._

 

Thank you very much IPodPJ for taking the time to share with us your first impressions. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 I'm waiting a little bit before placing my order but I can't wait to play with this amp.


----------



## Pale Rider

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *blessingx* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_PJ, just so we know what you mean when you state this, could you list which amps in the $1K-$1.5K range you haven't spent significant time with?_

 

x2. I'd like to understand your points of reference for this statement. I am considering a Phoenix, because I am intrigued by its CAST technology, as is a friend. My reference point for SS is an RSA Apache, while my friend's is a Headroom BUDA.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *blessingx* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_PJ, just so we know what you mean when you state this, could you list which amps in the $1K-$1.5K range you haven't spent significant time with?_

 

That I _haven't_ spent significant time with? Or that I _have_?
 I'm a pretty good judge of sound quality without spending a ton of time with an amp. I know whether it can reveal details, sounds natural, has good soundstage and imaging, has good tonal balance, or is too strident. I personally want an amp that sounds natural, and no solid state amp has really given me that which is why I pursue it.... it's part of the reason I love this hobby. In the Phoenix (now spending even more time with it), I think I've now found this. And it makes me so so happy! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 And by the way, now that the Phoenix has warmed up (and this amp really needs to warm up) the sound quality is even better. It's more neutral and still just as musical, but it sounds natural. "Natural" is what I look for in equipment. I want something that presents the music the way I would hear it in real life. This is probably the ONLY amp I've owned, or listened to and considered purchasing that I can honestly say I cannot see myself selling in the future.

 I had the Phonitor ($2K) in my home for a few days and got very familiar with it's sound signature, so much so that I have a very distinct memory of it. The Phoenix is a better amp (I've given impressions on it in a thread I started). And the Phonitor sounded better to me than Ti's B22 (detailed but not very musical) I heard at CanJam, and that costs around $2K for someone to build. It stomps all over the Corda Opera (which is a toy in comparison) and that was around $1300 when I bought it. I love the Amphora ($1K) and how natural sounding it was (but not the detail king) but the Phoenix is in a different league. The Rudistor RPX-300 ($2.5K) is a great amp (even though I didn't have much time with it) and has a very smooth presentation, but the Phoenix is more natural sounding. I didn't really care for the Luxman P-200 ($1.6K) with the HD800 as it just wasn't a good match, lacking in detail and musicality. The RSA Apache ($3K) is a great amp with excellent soundstage but a tad too warm for my tastes.

 I hope those are enough reference points 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 but if you want me to expound on any particular amp listed above I will be glad to do so to the best of my ability. And keep in mind all those amps had different sources on them, but many of them significantly more expensive than my DAC, yet I am more impressed with what I have in my home now. Also, if you are familiar with my posts you'll know I talk a lot about power cords and how much of a difference they make with different gear. They may make more of a difference in my apartment because like most apartments, the power isn't as clean as a direct line going into a house because it shares the return, and line noise travels. The best time to evaluate equipment in any home is late at night (between 1 a.m. and 4 a.m.) when power usage is at the lowest.


----------



## LaidBack

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *punk_guy182* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thank you very much IPodPJ for taking the time to share with us your first impressions. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

X2, along with all of the other folks that shared. Big thanks!

 Tim mentioned this before, and I fully agree, many of the impressions remind me exactly of the C-2C right out of the gate. I initially made the minor mistake of trying to listen before it was even fully warm. I was a little taken back by how thick and bassy the presentation was. Once fully warmed it started to balance out, open up, and really impress me. Even though the amp was brand new and not burned-in, I could tell that it meant serious business. I've really enjoyed the maturation/blooming process I've experienced with the C-2C, it's a quality amp top to bottom. I expect the same progression, and even better performance from the Phoenix. Mine will be shipping this weekend, I'm looking forward to it... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 EDIT: For the sake of clarity, the C-2C only needed some extra time to warm when it was brand new. After some healthy exercise, it's clearly an "on-demand" performer. Just to be reasonable, I always give my gear(HP and speaker rigs) adequate time to warm for quality sessions...


----------



## XXII

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_- A level of musicality that I've never heard from a solid state amp before.... this amp combines the details of solid state with the musicality of tubes... or that could just be my source, I'm not sure at this point.
 ...
 -Anyone who loves tubes will feel at home with this amp. It is so musical and I would say slightly on the warm side. I certainly wouldn't say what I'm hearing is neutral but that could be the fault of my source, again I'm not sure yet._

 

I thought the amp was supposed to be neutral? From these comment it doesn't seem like it is! Can others confirm this?

 The phoenix doesn't really have many direct competitors in it's price range if you discount DIY. The only balanced amp at a similar price AFAIK is the Rudistor NX-33.

 Edit: Thanks to IpodPJ and others who have posted their impressions


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *XXII* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I thought the amp was supposed to be neutral? From these comment it doesn't seem like it is! Can others confirm this?

 The phoenix doesn't really have many direct competitors in it's price range if you discount DIY. The only balanced amp at a similar price AFAIK is the Rudistor NX-33.

 Edit: Thanks to IpodPJ and others who have posted their impressions 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

See my post a few posts above yours. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I will write more impressions after I've listened to a lot more music. All I know is that this is the sound I've been searching for for a long time now and until today, have been unable to find.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Thanks for the first impressions guys. Looks like there are a few rough edges to smooth out.

 The lack of a manual has to be addressed ASAP, the use of which could eliminate the annoying stickers (with the inclusion of QC page check list to be filled out as the unit is given it's initial burn in and functionality/SQ checks). The cosmetic issues must also be addressed ASAP. No amp should leave the factory with any marker fixes even if that means delaying the customers shipping date. Last minute changes to the back panel I/O arrangement and labeling are part of the "cosmetic" make up of the unit with no mistakes being acceptable IMO. Again if that means a delay to get it right then so be it. I don't think anyone would complain about a few days extra if it means the unit being sent is 100% correct with a proper manual/QC check list included. No more stickers or at least low tack stickers that are easy to remove and clean up would be an acceptable compromise.

 That being said it's likely Kingwa will address all of these complaints, of that I have no doubt.

 On the whole the SQ impressions are looking good so keep them coming gents 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Peete.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

PJ that's good news concerning the HD800's...I bet Currawong is feeling a little better at this point WRT the Phoenix driving his 800's...

 Thanks again for the detailed initial impressions...wets my appetite for sure 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Peete.


----------



## les_garten

I also felt it had a "tube" like quality to it tonight and mentioned that to someone else about it. I'm trying to figure that one out. Reminds me of the sound of a Threshold SA/3(not a HA, just the SQ) if you've heard that one. Very Liquid, Black Background, Smooth, yet impactful and not Harsh. Yet still resolving detail. I should like this a bit more when I get it on CAST out and balanced canz.

 Of note is how long the Heat up took. At 2 hours, it was nowhere near as warn as it was at around 6 hours. I don't feel that stacking these is my cup of tea for a lot of reasons, least of which is the heat Soak. I'm putting some spacers between the boxes till i get some longer DC cables built.

 If any of you guys have thermometers, I would be interested in hearing what temps you are getting on the front, sides and underneath.

 .

 .


----------



## DC5Zilla

So do you prefer phoenix over sonett for HD800 amp?


----------



## les_garten

PIX of the Back Panel Mistakes. This panel is different from the Panel on the website. RCA is misspelled and two of the Inputs are mislabeled. I included the stock pic for comparison.

*STOCK*
 >>





*As delivered:*

http://www.turbonet.biz/misc/phoenix...p/AAA_1752.JPG
http://www.turbonet.biz/misc/phoenix...p/AAA_1755.JPG

 This is not an "easy" FIX

 .


----------



## LaidBack

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I also felt it had a "tube" like quality to it tonight and mentioned that to someone else about it. I'm trying to figure that one out. Reminds me of the sound of a Threshold SA/3(not a HA, just the SQ) if you've heard that one. Very Liquid, Black Background, Smooth, yet impactful and not Harsh. Yet still resolving detail. I should like this a bit more when I get it on CAST out and balanced canz.

 Of note is how long the Heat up took. At 2 hours, it was nowhere near as warn as it was at around 6 hours. I don't feel that stacking these is my cup of tea for a lot of reasons, least of which is the heat Soak. I'm putting some spacers between the boxes till i get some longer DC cables built.

 If any of you guys have thermometers, I would be interested in hearing what temps you are getting on the front, sides and underneath.

 ._

 

Hmmmm, I know you're not concerned/bothered about "normal" Class A heat. I hope things settle down...


----------



## shampoosuicide

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DC5Zilla* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So do you prefer phoenix over sonett for HD800 amp?_

 

x2. 

 Furthermore they're in the same price bracket.


----------



## Pyriel0

Honestly for $330 off the reg price I don't think its a big deal since you won't ever be looking at the back anyways and you still know which input is which.


----------



## fdhfdy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_PIX of the Back Panel Mistakes. This panel is different from the Panel on the website. RCA is misspelled and two of the Inputs are mislabeled. I included the stock pic for comparison.

*STOCK*
 >>





*As delivered:*

http://www.turbonet.biz/misc/phoenix...p/AAA_1752.JPG
http://www.turbonet.biz/misc/phoenix...p/AAA_1755.JPG

 This is not an "easy" FIX

 ._

 

They will adjust their mistake soon and yours will become rare and unique like stamps, which sound not bad.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

The back panel mistakes should be fixed with the next generation of units as the current units would be a difficult retrofit. I can live with these minor mistakes but that doesn't mean they are acceptable. I'm sure Kingwa will get this all sorted out ASAP.

 Les are you using 2 different SE'd cables on the L/R inputs ? Thanks for the pics BTW 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Peete.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The back panel mistakes should be fixed with the next generation of units as the current units would be a difficult retrofit. I can live with these minor mistakes but that doesn't mean they are acceptable. I'm sure Kingwa will get this all sorted out ASAP.

 Les are you using 2 different SE'd cables on the L/R inputs ? Thanks for the pics BTW 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Peete._

 

Oh yeah, those were cobbled together to get it running while I fab up some cables. An audioquest and a Transparent Audio Labs. I couldn't find any of mine in matching PINK...

 .


----------



## Currawong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks for the first impressions guys. Looks like there are a few rough edges to smooth out.

 The lack of a manual has to be addressed ASAP, the use of which could eliminate the annoying stickers (with the inclusion of QC page check list to be filled out as the unit is given it's initial burn in and functionality/SQ checks). The cosmetic issues must also be addressed ASAP. No amp should leave the factory with any marker fixes even if that means delaying the customers shipping date. Last minute changes to the back panel I/O arrangement and labeling are part of the "cosmetic" make up of the unit with no mistakes being acceptable IMO. Again if that means a delay to get it right then so be it. I don't think anyone would complain about a few days extra if it means the unit being sent is 100% correct with a proper manual/QC check list included. No more stickers or at least low tack stickers that are easy to remove and clean up would be an acceptable compromise.

 That being said it's likely Kingwa will address all of these complaints, of that I have no doubt.

 On the whole the SQ impressions are looking good so keep them coming gents 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Peete._

 

x2 this. I've emailed Kingwa and he replied that he's reading the thread and acting on feedback. He says that part of the issue may be the customs inspection causing damage or making the items dirty, so I sent him suggestions about packing (since my previous job used to involve packing) that make it easier for customs to remove items to inspect them, which, if that's the issue, will help prevent problems in the future. He said that they take photos of everything they ship and keep them for 30 days in case there are any issues.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Each input will remember where the volume was left at.
 If you leave input 1 at 51 and input 2 at 64, both will be at those exact numbers when you turn it back on or switch between inputs.

 But the memory function is either on or off for all inputs, you can not have memory active for one input and not the others._

 

That's handy. I'd not thought of that at all, but will be glad to have it as a feature. Now I just wish my Ref 1 had dual balanced outputs so I can hook up my Stax at the same time. I think I'll have to order those Lemo connectors, plugs and some OCCC wire and get soldering.


----------



## IPodPJ

Ok, more impressions.

 The black background, oh that glorious background. I've never heard such a black background through a headphone amp, EVER. The CAST is amazing in that you can listen at low volumes and hear every ounce of detail you would at louder levels.

 I'm not sure if this is my source or the amp (I really think it's my source) but there is a slight recessed midrange for sure. Those of you who really like a forward midrange may find this amp lacking. You are not up on stage with the band, you are at least 10 rows back. But again, this could be my source and I will confirm this at the meet. I also have no doubt that this amp will be a showstopper. More transparency than I've ever heard from a headphone amp... and also confirms my own belief that a source is not 60% - 70% of the sound of your system... the amp is just as important, and has held back my system in the past.

 This sucker gets HOT! I am going to put vinyl bumpers below the aluminum feet (my girlfriend found some in her drawer). The power supply section gets much hotter than the amp section. I tried picking it up and if I had held it for more than a few seconds I would have burned my fingers. As hot as the top and back panel get, the underside is worse.

 Another thing I also noticed, and this may just be crazy of me to think, but when you take a break from playing music while the amp still remains on, it sounds better for the first minute or two when you start it up again. After that, it seems to change the signature ever so slightly. This could just be my ears but I'll wait for others to confirm or deny this.

 Regarding whether or not I would still purchase the Sonett, yes I would because it offers another flavor and a more upfront midrange. Between the two if I only could choose one I'd choose the Phoenix because it has the blackest background I've ever heard which lets every subtle nuance through, and there is zero sibilance with the HD800.

 Also, I tried it with the K702 and it sounds great but the HD800 are still miles above it. I actually wonder how Kingwa could design the amp using a lesser headphone since he can't possibly hear all the details through a phone like the K702 or HD600. I'd really like to know which headphones he used to design it.

 I don't know if any of you are listening to it with balanced inputs right now but don't be too critical of the amp if you aren't. It sounds excellent with SE but even better with balanced. I can't even imagine how good it will sound once I get my balanced HD800 cable. I also plan on using the supplied extra DC connectors to make a different cable to compare against the included Sharkwire one. Right now I am also using his Sharkwire XLR cables but am going to swap out for the Monoprice XLR and see how they compare.


----------



## les_garten

One suggestion to anyone ordering one. The Display is BRIGHT. The Idea of a dimmer is not a bad idea.

 .


----------



## squall343

Actually regarding the heat, maybe kingwa can consider installing heat sinks on his amp next time?

 Should be able to dissipate the heat faster


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_One suggestion to anyone ordering one. The Display is BRIGHT. The Idea of a dimmer is not a bad idea.

 ._

 

That's why I had him install me a switch on the back to turn off the display. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





 More comments, some of which I'd like other Phoenix owners to try:

 -- His Sharkwire XLR cables sound SOOOOO much better than my Monoprice XLR. Monoprice is muddy in comparison.

 -- There are minor sound quality differences between like inputs (which is usually the case with most amps).

 -- Kingwa's claim of other inputs being disconnected when a selected input is playing is false. There is a bleed over of audio from one input to the next. For example, I have my XLR on input 4 and my SE on input 1. When I switch to input 2, I can hear the music very faintly in the background, and it gains in volume incrementally with every turn of the knob.

 -- Why are there no ventilation holes on these units? They get way too hot not to have any place for the hot air to vent to.


----------



## IPodPJ

Here is Kingwa's reply next to my complaints. I have bolded them:

 "First of all, the amp sounds great and I love it. Kingwa did a superb job, probably the best solid state amp I've ever heard and I've heard quite a few. I have already posted some good reviews and I will write many more in time, I'm sure. *---------------Thanks, that is what I looking for.*

 A few things that are unacceptable and really made me angry (and upset many others as well).....

 -- stickers all over the amplifier that we have to remove with Goo Gone (a solution to remove sticky residue that won't damage the finish). This is absolutely unacceptable on a new piece of equipment.*--------------As I read the complain at forum, I have tell my wokers remove four stickers, only left one near the IEC sockets show what work voltage and the series NO. The sticker on the front show the customers name , have remove and change on angle the top baord.*

 -- scratches in my unit, covered up with a permanent marker. No excuse for this. This just shows poor quality control and that someone intentionally did not want to replace the side panel. I expect a replacement panel and a tool to remove the screws. I do not have a camera here but I will try to borrow someones camera and take a picture. In the meantime, I hope you will prepare a side panel for shipping out to me next week with the tool to remove the screws and instructions on how to do this.*---------------I am sorry for that, I always tell my workers replace all classis board if the board have scratches, because if the customers find the scratches on the board we will send the new one to customers and I will lost a lot than replace the board before shipping. Make a sign in a pix of the phoenix, so we can understand which board need replace and will send to you.*


 -- No instruction manual. All electronic equipment must come with an instruction manual to show people how to use it, even if printed cheaply on a home printer and stapled. If someone damages the equipment they are not responsible because you have not stated how to use the equipment or explained what is covered in a warranty, or explained your liability. By the way, how long is the warranty?*-----------------------------The manual is our mistake and our difficult, my interpreter Cherry don't know the technology English, and as you know my English is so bad and poor, So we are have some difficult to make the manual.
 But we will make it, I will write the manual and find a oversea friends to edit it.
 THe warranty in here links
ÐÂ½¨ÍøÒ³ 1*


 -- Too much tape wrapped around everything. You package the items very nicely with styrofoam and plastic bags, but all that tape is annoying to remove and people can cut through the cables when they cut through the tape. This is not necessary.
*---------------The tape is we do it witting, because I think we do it more tapes, wish custom workers don't open the foams, then can keep the gears more safe.
 Kingwa*


 As you can see, Kingwa always tries his best to make the customer happy. Even before I placed an order, he always addressed my concerns. As I've stated, I think there was no excuse for what happened but at least it won't happen to others in the future. Kingwa listens, and does.


----------



## Yikes

The power supply runs very hot, almost as hot as the heat sinks of my JC1 mono amps. Hot enough that I am concerned about reliability.

 Up to now To say that I am pleased is an understatement, however I caution people that it is entirely too soon to be declaring this amp as the best, or even believing that you have a firm grasp of it's qualities. It takes more than a few hours of break-in and use to get the full measure of any component. Look at early rave reviews with skepticism.

 I attempt to temper my enthusiasm because I know it's still early. As of now I am optimistic that the Phoenix will actually exceed my expectations, however the Jury is still deliberating.


----------



## LaidBack

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_...Those of you who really like a forward midrange may find this amp lacking...._

 

PJ, I'm glad you're digging the Phoenix. I really like the A-GD sound sig too. Please give it some more time to mature before drawing conclusions. The Phoenix should be similiar to the other A-GD gear, the whole presentation should bloom with quality given time to mature...

 I certainly can't guarantee that mids will become more forward. But I'd be willing to bet that the honesty you're hearing is going to become even more open, clear, and honest...


----------



## IPodPJ

A note regarding my display on/off switch that I had installed in the back of the Phoenix:

 This is very odd... On some inputs the display goes off completely, on other inputs the display is dim and parts of the numbers are missing. And then if I turn the display switch on and off again, sometimes the screen is dimmer and sometimes it's brighter. At first I just thought my unit was defective but then realized the display switch was turned off.

 So if you're reading this Kingwa, the display switch is buggy.


----------



## LaidBack

Les mentioned it first hand, and even in the photos the display seems to be very bright. This may be the dumb question of the day, but can Kingwa reduce the intensity by ~20-30%?


----------



## Edwood

The spelling errors on the back laser etching doesn't bother me too much.

 The over use of tape labels is not an issue for me. My favorite sticker removal scheme is Goo Be Gone (not Goof Off, as it can damage plastics). Then follow up with alcohol.

 The sharpie cover up of scratches is completely unacceptable. 

 The heat concerns me as well, as there is no real substantial heatsinking, only the thick aluminum panels. Which leads to undesirable effect like hot knobs. (RSA Raptor, anyone?) It sounds like the Phoenix could really be living up to it's name.

 As for power use. Anyone have a Kill-A-Watt device or such and plug it in? I'm curious as to how many Watts the Phoenix actually sucks out of the mains wall?

 -Ed


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Edwood* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It sounds like the Phoenix could really be living up to it's name._

 

LMAO. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 It better not set my place on fire.

 I don't have one of those Kill-A-Watt thingies but Kingwa specified that it only draws about 48W. Somehow I don't see how that's possible if this amp is getting hotter than people say the REF-1 does, and that draws 160W.

 But Ed, it sounds so good........................................ The heat is worth it.

 The Sharpie was not done in customs as Kingwa may have thought. Everything was sealed perfectly and untouched. Also I was tracking it through DHL as it went through customs and it took about 10 minutes.

 I switcho-changearoo'd my power cables and got all the midrange back I thought it was lacking, and the bass, oh the bass... anyone who claims the HD800 have no bass either don't have the proper gear to drive them or they aren't sitting on their head correctly. One of the best recordings I have listened to so far with the Phoenix is Chris Rea's Road To Hell. The imaging and details are unlike anything I've ever heard.


----------



## haloxt

I decided not to try resoldering the 9 pin cable lol, when Staples opens today I'm going to buy a 9 pin to 25 pin cable and 25 pin to 9 pin adapter, 9 pin male to 9 pin male is so hard to find lol. Also I opened up my headphones and noticed its internal wiring is gonna be difficult as hell to substitute with blue dragon cable if it's even possible grr, I won't be able to test out the balanced mode before July probably.


----------



## Currawong

Are these cables no good?


----------



## haloxt

I need them immediately 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## tim3320070

Really wanting to hear a comparison to the C-2C please!!


----------



## NiToNi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think I prefer the Phoenix to the Phonitor. However the Phonitor has better soundstaging due to it's speaker angle customization. The soundstage of the Phoenix is not wide nor deep, but very comfortable to listen to._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_As of now the adjectives that I'd use are Big and Bold, with very good bass._

 

If the Phonitor has a wider and deeper soundstage and better imaging than Phoenix, would you then, IpodPJ, describe the Phonitor as Bigger and Bolder?

 Do you still have the Phonitor in-house for a more detailed direct comparison? 
 I am eagerly awaiting as much feedback as possible on the Phoenix vs Phonitor together with HD800 before 30th June but based on what I've read so far I'm leaning towards the Phonitor....
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_On the picture of the back of the Phoenix (shown on the Audio-gd site) all the inputs and outputs are properly screen printed. Why then on the units we received are some of the input numbers missing and covered with stickers, as well as RCA-OUT now spelled PCA-OUT?_

 

.... and what is up with the screw heads on the top-plate that aren't there on the website photos. They are ugly since they ruin the smooth look and would make stacking more difficult.


----------



## squall343

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *NiToNi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_


 .... and what is up with the screw heads on the top-plate that aren't there on the website photos. They are ugly since they ruin the smooth look and would make stacking more difficult.



_

 

they are used to secure the top plate


----------



## Yikes

Later today I'm going to build some Siltech DC umbilicals to use between the Power Supply and Amplifier sections. The amp's been playing as a preamp for about 14 hours and it's continuing to improve. After 4 hours it was big and bold with great bass, now it still has those qualities but it's smoother and more refined with wonderful detail and very nice imaging.


 As a preamp it is not out of place in my system using all Siltech and driving JC1 mono's and Usher BE-20's. It's funny, the only thing in this system that is less expensive than the Phoenix is my DIY Balanced Power conditioner, everything else is much more expensive. 


 I should be receiving a set of Balanced GS-1000's later today, so I'll be able to actually listen to the Headphone amplifier outs. Exploring and getting to know the capabilities of new toys is so much fun, I'm freaking giddy.


----------



## D_4_Dog

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I actually wonder how Kingwa could design the amp using a lesser headphone since he can't possibly hear all the details through a phone like the K702 or HD600. I'd really like to know which headphones he used to design it._

 

In my email correspondences w/ Mr He he mentioned testing it with D2000, D5000, K701, as well as a HD650.


----------



## haloxt

les_garten asked earlier what the extra wires were on the data cable, audio-gd tried to reinforce pins 6+7 into one and also reinforce pin 9 because they didn't trust the QC of the data cable, they didn't do anything else so it's possible to use a normal db9 male to male cable. Sigh I spent $20+ on an adapter and a db9 male to female cable and when I tried to plug it in the screw in thing was reversed 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. So I said screw it now I'm going to resolder the 9 pin cable that came with the Phoenix and it's going to be 3 inches long heh heh heh.

 Woo I found the problem, their resoldering of pins 6 and 7 was broken, probably when I stressed it too much pulling the plastic wrapper off. So be careful with that guys ^^.


----------



## ServinginEcuador

As someone who is waiting for the next batch to ship so they can receive their amp: I'll gladly wait an extra week or so if it allows some time to add ventilation holes and fix the printing. 


 Phil,

 Thanks for your impressions! Allayed all concerns, and now has me chomping at the bit to get my amp. Should be a real treat once it arrives.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_les_garten asked earlier what the extra wires were on the data cable, audio-gd tried to reinforce pins 6+7 into one and also reinforce pin 9 because they didn't trust the QC of the data cable, they didn't do anything else so it's possible to use a normal db9 male to male cable. Sigh I spent $20+ on an adapter and a db9 male to female cable and when I tried to plug it in the screw in thing was reversed 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. So I said screw it now I'm going to resolder the 9 pin cable that came with the Phoenix and it's going to be 3 inches long heh heh heh.

 Woo I found the problem, their resoldering of pins 6 and 7 was broken, probably when I stressed it too much pulling the plastic wrapper off. So be careful with that guys ^^._

 

Let us know if a stock cable works, this may be something to know for the future.

 Regarding Ventilation, this gear needs holes it seems. When I can get it spread out a little, I'll see if the temp drops with the top off. It didn't help the REF1, but the REF1 was not as hot and not as Hot all over like this one. The knobs do indeed get close to 120F. Feels like Krell/Threshold gear on the outside!

 .
 .


----------



## Yikes

Judging by Kingwa's response to heat questions with the Ref 1 (I believe that he said that it was normal and designed to run that way, but I haven't exactly followed the Ref 1 thread) I doubt that the next batch will have cooling holes.

 It's running hot like a class A amplifier. This is a headphone amp/preamp, I've never seen a preamp run as hot as the power supply runs. I'm not criticizing how hot the Amplifier section is running, it's quite warm, but the Power supply is hot. I can only hold my hand to it for, actually I just held my hand on it and it's not so hot that I can't hold my hand on it, but it's still pretty hot. Anyone with a IR temperature sensor?

 It's not a fire hazard, and no one is going to hurt themselves on it. At this point my only nit to pick with the amp is the heat, and it's not severe enough that I would consider bailing.


----------



## haloxt

I finished soldering the data cable that came with the Phoenix, now it's a 3 inch one with a dozen pieces of tape covering a rainbow of wires ^^. Phoenix is alive! And only listened for a minute but hey it sounds better than compass amp ^^.

 I'm thinking about getting some cooling pads to put on the audio-gd stuff because they do get hot in the summer. Anyone have any ideas for some kind of cooling pads to put on top of electronics that can be powered by house electrical outlet? Btw the reason why audio-gd doesn't put ventilation is because they use heatsinks and ventilations allow dust to go in. Also some people may be confused about the rubber feet making the sound quality go down. That's entering patrick82 realm of sound tweaking, don't worry about it unless you are compulsive.


----------



## boomana

As I've been following this thread with semi-detached interest, I'm just curious how many folks jumped in on this promotional run: ipodpj, my cranky friend les 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 , Mr. Yikes, halotx, and Currawong. Is that it?

 The reason I'm asking is that I'm trying to get a handle on what's real vs. enthusiasm. Yikes has the chops and sense to actually provide meaning and context; les is such a good nudge, I give his thoughts some weight; ipodpj is a such fountain of superlatives with everything lately, I have no idea what any of it means; Currawong has way too much of a personal connection/investment (sorry, but that's the way I see it); and I don't really know halotx's experience at all. Not trying to personalize this, guys, but I am curious about this amp, and I do pay attention to who is saying what.

 ServinginEcuador? I'd pay attention. Anyone else?

 Les, any shot you and I might get together for a mini-meet in a few weeks? I have some fun stuff that might be of interest, both new and oldies-but-goodies, and I really would like to hear this amp for myself.


----------



## Yikes

The initial run of 10 was distributed 6 to the US 2 to Canada 1 to Japan and 1 to the Czech Republic. I'm Ethan, and we know who got one in Japan. The rest is a mystery.



 [size=small]Czech Republic Stepan[/size]
 [size=small]Japan Amos[/size]
 [size=small]Canada Brad[/size]
 [size=small]Canada Michael[/size]
 [size=small]USA Danh[/size]
 [size=small]USA Les[/size]
 [size=small]USA Bruce[/size]
 [size=small]USA Philip[/size]
 [size=small]USA Michael[/size]
 [size=small]USA Ethan[/size]


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Judging by Kingwa's response to heat questions with the Ref 1 (I believe that he said that it was normal and designed to run that way, but I haven't exactly followed the Ref 1 thread) I doubt that the next batch will have cooling holes.

 It's running hot like a class A amplifier. This is a headphone amp/preamp, I've never seen a preamp run as hot as the power supply runs. I'm not criticizing how hot the Amplifier section is running, it's quite warm, but the Power supply is hot. I can only hold my hand to it for, actually I just held my hand on it and it's not so hot that I can't hold my hand on it, but it's still pretty hot. Anyone with a IR temperature sensor?

 It's not a fire hazard, and no one is going to hurt themselves on it. At this point my only nit to pick with the amp is the heat, and it's not severe enough that I would consider bailing._

 

 I understand what you are saying about the heat. However, on the Power supply the front, back and sides are hot enough, that there is enough "Chimney" heat there that Vents wold help. The REF1 does not get near as hot on the sides and top. There was no difference running it with the top off. I shot temps and not much change there. 

 The Phoenix PSU chassis has a lot of heat on all the surfaces, holes gotta help it. I'll run it with it's cover off and see if the temp drops. I'll have to see if someone can vent it for me. I can't do it. You should see that last case I vented. Looks like those Boyz in Deliverance shot it full of Buckshot!

 .


----------



## TStewart422

Can't wait to see it compared to a B22. I'm down to my final two choices!


----------



## tim3320070

I seem to remember my C-2C being very hot at first (few days maybe) and now after running all night (and months of use), it is only warm. Am I crazy or did someone else experience this with AGD gear?


----------



## squall343

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tim3320070* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I seem to remember my C-2C being very hot at first (few days maybe) and now after running all night (and months of use), it is only warm. Am I crazy or did someone else experience this with AGD gear?_

 

x2 for my c2c also

 now it is just slightly warm

 been running it for half a day straight


----------



## Yikes

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I understand what you are saying about the heat. However, on the Power supply the front, back and sides are hot enough, that there is enough "Chimney" heat there that Vents wold help. The REF1 does not get near as hot on the sides and top. There was no difference running it with the top off. I shot temps and not much change there. 

 The Phoenix PSU chassis has a lot of heat on all the surfaces, holes gotta help it. I'll run it with it's cover off and see if the temp drops. I'll have to see if someone can vent it for me. I can't do it. You should see that last case I vented. Looks like those Boyz in Deliverance shot it full of Buckshot!

 ._

 

Les, I'm very interested to see the results of your temp experiment. I am not against having the Power Supply cover drilled, hell there's even room to have a series of holes run along the bottom of the sides, or even some on the bottom. I have a machinist friend that could do an excellent job. I'd want to do the same on the Amp section so that they matched.

 Keep us informed.

 Thanks


----------



## seaice

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The initial run of 10 was distributed 6 to the US 2 to Canada 1 to Japan and 1 to the Czech Republic. I'm Ethan, and we know who got one in Japan. The rest is a mystery.



 [size=small]Czech Republic Stepan[/size]..._

 







 I am Stepan, but my Phoenix has stucked somewhere in transit. The EMS lists it as "Despatch from Sorting Center" - GUANGZHOU (2009-06-24 01:09:00). So I must wait... But I appreciate all the first impressions posted here! I hope that all potential issues will be uncovered when my unit comes home


----------



## squall343

Regarding the heat

 from what i see, Audio Gd have heat sink on some of their speaker amp

 something like that
http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/amp/FBI/FBI5001.jpg
http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/amp/C-10/C1002.jpg

 maybe they should implement it for the phoenix


----------



## Cobold

How hot you think the audio gd speaker amp will run if they think it is not necessary for Phoenix?


----------



## Yikes

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *squall343* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Regarding the heat

 from what i see, Audio Gd have heat sink on some of their speaker amp

 something like that
http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/amp/FBI/FBI5001.jpg
http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/amp/C-10/C1002.jpg

 maybe they should implement it for the phoenix_

 

The heat sinks in the amps are for the output devices which in my experience are the main source of heat in an amp. The output devices in the Phoenix amplifier are mounted to little green heat sinks, and the entire chassis is also one big heat sink. At least with the power supply the chassis may not offer sufficient radiating area (Cooling)


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Les, I'm very interested to see the results of your temp experiment. I am not against having the Power Supply cover drilled, hell there's even room to have a series of holes run along the bottom of the sides, or even some on the bottom. I have a machinist friend that could do an excellent job. I'd want to do the same on the Amp section so that they matched.

 Keep us informed.

 Thanks_

 

I think that the Silver color of the holes if it is done right would go with the theme of the Phoenix. He's already using Silver as an accent color scheme. So if the Pattern were setup right, it may actually not hurt the looks. And you know hoe we like to mod things!

 Maybe your Machinest will give you a Package deal/Group Buy! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I am pretty certain it will lower the temp possibly 10-15 degrees. My guess here is because of how much heat is getting into the Knobs, side and top. I should know something by tonight ot tomorrow. I gots me some soldering to do today...

 .


----------



## tim3320070

It's hilarious to me that someone would consider the Grado amp (or similar) for $400 with about 10 pieces to it over this beast which must have 400 components.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *TStewart422* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Can't wait to see it compared to a B22. I'm down to my final two choices!_

 

I was prepping a BOM to do a B22 when the Phoenix came along and stopped me dead in my tracks. There really doesn't seem anything else out there to compete with the B22 IMO. I'm talking design philosophy here. AMB has a nice piece of gear and It seems so does Kingwa. It's nice that the Phoenix costs a lot less than a B22.

 .


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tim3320070* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It's hilarious to me that someone would consider the Grado amp (or similar) for $400 with about 10 pieces to it over this beast which must have 400 components._

 

Who said that? 

 Your're talking RA-1/CMOY, correct?

 .


----------



## Pyriel0

This is the power supply shot. At the top and bottom you notice the 6 screws with a few solder spots per screw. I looks like the mosfets/jfets or whatever is used is screwed to the bottom of the box, making the bottom act as a heatsink. I doubt putting holes in the case will help much because the majority of the heat will still be transferred directly to the case (for the psu at least).


----------



## haloxt

boomana, you're right. I have very little experience which is why I never make recommendations unless someone is interested strictly in Ultrasone headphones and needs clarifications. Other than B&O A8 earbuds and some ht omega sound cards (nice sound cards hehe) I only know one brand of dac/amps and one brand of headphones. I don't know how Ultrasone or audio-gd stack up against other brands, but I do know how they stack up vs. each other which is all I think people should take my opinions as attempting to explain. And I think people should stop saying Curra has a vested interest in audio-gd, from what I've seen he's here only to help out individual head-fiers not companies.

 I wasn't particularly overwhelmed by upgrading to the dac19mk3+compass amp section, I thought it might be worth the upgrade in some circumstances, but going from dac19mk3+compass amp to dac19mk3+Phoenix is wowing me more than I was ever wowed by dac19mk3. There's a lot of echo-like sounds that never existed with the compass dac+compass amp or was so muddled your brain excluded it as extraneous sound. The echo-like sound became more present but sometimes faded with the dac19mk3 and the compass amp, but now with the Phoenix it's surprisingly accurate and continuously present. Sound has a misty quality to it now from all the detail especially anything that echoes.


----------



## tim3320070

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Who said that? 

 Your're talking RA-1/CMOY, correct?

 ._

 

yep


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *NiToNi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If the Phonitor has a wider and deeper soundstage and better imaging than Phoenix, would you then, IpodPJ, describe the Phonitor as Bigger and Bolder?

 Do you still have the Phonitor in-house for a more detailed direct comparison?_

 

I don't still have it. But the Phonitor was not bigger and bolder, it was leaner and less natural.


----------



## boomana

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_And I think people should stop saying Curra has a vested interest in audio-gd, from what I've seen he's here only to help out individual head-fiers not companies._

 

Thanks, haloxt for explaining some things. As for the above, I've got nothing against Amos, and have found him to be a more-or-less straight shooter, as they say, here and elsewhere. I just know that he has invested himself personally in getting this amp to development and in bringing it to head-fiers, and because of that, I'm just not sure how much of that personal investment might influence his impressions. If it had been me doing same, I would hope you'd weigh anything I might say with extreme skepticism. That's all.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It's not a fire hazard, and no one is going to hurt themselves on it. At this point my only nit to pick with the amp is the heat, and it's not severe enough that I would consider bailing._

 

You're wrong about not hurting themselves on it. Next time you've had it on for 4 or 5 hours, try picking up the power supply section. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I guarantee you won't be able to for more than a few seconds.

 Do I think this would burn down your house? No, but I wouldn't leave it on when I'm not at home, guaranteed.


----------



## Yikes

Huh... double post.

 I'm loosing my mind. I have to stop staying up until 3 am. I'm loosing it. Never mind.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I was prepping a BOM to do a B22 when the Phoenix came along and stopped me dead in my tracks. There really doesn't seem anything else out there to compete with the B22 IMO. I'm talking design philosophy here. AMB has a nice piece of gear and It seems so does Kingwa. It's nice that the Phoenix costs a lot less than a B22.

 ._

 

Yeah, I would really love to get a balanced B22 in my hands so I can try it in my home with different power cords. At CanJam, there was really no way to try power cords on other people's gear. That way a fair comparison could be done.

 With regards to the Phonitor, the Phoenix is just a better sounding amp to me in every way. The Phonitor sounds sterile in comparison, and I thought it was a superb amp. This is the first amp I've had that lays out the music so naturally and honest that I don't want to stop listening. It sounds live, not like Memorex.


----------



## Yikes

I haven't felt the bottom, so it very well could be hotter than the top. Especially since it does seem that components are sinked to it (As Pyriel0 showed us). It's still not a fire hazard, the only way it might hurt you is if you picked it up and then because it was hot you drop it on your foot 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Ouch!

 When I wrote about Big and Bold, it was more about Dynamics and overall slam than Imaging or the soundstage.


----------



## Pars

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I was prepping a BOM to do a B22 when the Phoenix came along and stopped me dead in my tracks. There really doesn't seem anything else out there to compete with the B22 IMO. I'm talking design philosophy here. AMB has a nice piece of gear and It seems so does Kingwa. It's nice that the Phoenix costs a lot less than a B22.

 ._

 

There also are the Dynahi and Dynamite to compete with the B22, as well as the DynaFET. All are in the equivalent B22 price range to build.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I haven't felt the bottom, so it very well could be hotter than the top. Especially since it does seem that components are sinked to it (As Pyriel0 showed us). It's still not a fire hazard, the only way it might hurt you is if you picked it up and then because it was hot you drop it on your foot 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Ouch!

 When I wrote about Big and Bold, it was more about Dynamics and overall slam than Imaging or the soundstage._

 

I understand how he heatsinks his gear. But there is so much heat intrusion into the top, front and sides, that some convective ventilation has to help. The REF1 has a lot of heat localized on the bottom but not near as much on the sides, front, and top. So, it was not a surprise when lifting he cover on it didn't help "much". We'll see how the top off tests go.

 .


----------



## Pyriel0

tim3320070 are you ordering a phoenix? I'm hoping someone in the vicinity of IL has one for the Chicago meet in November. I have a FirstWatt F1 otw and it would be nice to compare them.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pars* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There also are the Dynahi and Dynamite to compete with the B22, as well as the DynaFET. All are in the equivalent B22 price range to build._

 

I looked at both of those as well, but they didn't seem to have the support or design of the B22. But nice for sure.

 .


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_When I wrote about Big and Bold, it was more about Dynamics and overall slam than Imaging or the soundstage._

 

Right, and that's what I was talking about. But because the soundstage of the Phonitor was more tunable, it gave you the impression of a bigger soundstage. It is a feature I like very much. But the Phoenix just gives you what's on the recording and if it is a well recorded, live album the soundstage is extremely panoramic.

 The Phonitor was leaner in tone and dynamics. It sounded like an op-amp based amplifier, and it is, which is one of the reasons I think it's extremely sensitive to different power cords. The Phoenix has such a black background that you will hear the softest notes just as easily as you can hear the loudest ones. But if I use the stock power cord, there is a significant loss of detail and soundstage. Had I never heard the Phoenix, I'd probably still be considering buying the Phonitor.


----------



## punk_guy182

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The initial run of 10 was distributed 6 to the US 2 to Canada 1 to Japan and 1 to the Czech Republic. I'm Ethan, and we know who got one in Japan. The rest is a mystery._

 

Brad is Prickely Peete!


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *punk_guy182* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Brad is Prickely Peete! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Ya just figured that out??

 .


----------



## Yikes

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I understand how he heatsinks his gear. But there is so much heat intrusion into the top, front and sides, that some convective ventilation has to help. The REF1 has a lot of heat localized on the bottom but not near as much on the sides, front, and top. So, it was not a surprise when lifting he cover on it didn't help "much". We'll see how the top off tests go.

 ._

 

Don't forget that the Ref 1 has a chassis that is at least twice as large, and when you are using the chassis as the heat sink size matters. Why is it that size always matters?


----------



## punk_guy182

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ya just figured that out??_

 

nope!


----------



## tim3320070

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pyriel0* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_tim3320070 are you ordering a phoenix? I'm hoping someone in the vicinity of IL has one for the Chicago meet in November. I have a FirstWatt F1 otw and it would be nice to compare them._

 

I am considering it........
 I would like to hear someone's opinion of the Phoenix vs the C-2C. The sound I get now is very good thru the C-2C but when I fire up the Ref-1/FBI-500, everything seems more natural and just...better- wondering if that's the fully balanced thing or CAST or both and if that would translate to the Ref-1/Phoenix. The big problem is that the Ref-1 has one CAST output and I would need 2 if I got the Phoenix.


----------



## punk_guy182

double post. crap!


----------



## Edwood

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_But Ed, it sounds so good........................................ The heat is worth it._

 

If I wanted my amp to double as a space heater, I would've built a Balanced Dynahi, or opted for a 300B tube set up.


  Quote:


 The Sharpie was not done in customs as Kingwa may have thought. Everything was sealed perfectly and untouched. Also I was tracking it through DHL as it went through customs and it took about 10 minutes. 
 

So Kingwa denied the sharpie cover up?


----------



## Pricklely Peete

The heat might abate some as the unit is cycled on and off a number of times. Thermal seating is my definition for it (right or wrong). The C-2C/RE1 and the Compass had a similar progression but the RE1 was the most notable to date in terms of higher temps. 

 When my RE1 arrived it ran hot for the first few days (or week I can't remember how long the initial period was)...now it runs warm. I'm willing to bet a similar transition may occur with the Phoenix. At any rate it's something to make note of during the first solid week of use. I'd suggest everyone who has one (right now) turn it off for an hour each day. In a weeks time we'll revisit the heat issue and see if it has cooled down some.

 I'm no expert and I've likely made a mistake or two with this statement so please go easy on the amateur engineering theory.

 Peete.


----------



## K3cT

Is there any point getting this if you don't run balanced headphone or have no intention of going in that direction?


----------



## Edwood

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pyriel0* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_





 This is the power supply shot. At the top and bottom you notice the 6 screws with a few solder spots per screw. I looks like the mosfets/jfets or whatever is used is screwed to the bottom of the box, making the bottom act as a heatsink. I doubt putting holes in the case will help much because the majority of the heat will still be transferred directly to the case (for the psu at least)._

 

If you have a big, flat heatsink (one or two older Pentium II heatsinks might work.) You could try smothering the bottom of the contact surface of the heatsink with thermal compound and it will stick by itself for a bit. A temporary fix to see if it helps dissipate the heat on the bottom of the PSU box. If it works, then use Arctic silver thermal epoxy, or just drill and tap a few holes to screw it in place (which is what I would do.)

 At the very least it could keep the front panel from getting very hot. So that way the knobs aren't hot to the touch.

 -Ed


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The heat might abate some as the unit is cycled on and off a number of times. Thermal seating is my definition for it (right or wrong). The C-2C/RE1 and the Compass had a similar progression but the RE1 was the most notable to date in terms of higher temps. 

 When my RE1 arrived it ran hot for the first few days (or week I can't remember how ;long the initial period was)...now it runs warm. I'm willing to bet a similar transition may occur with the Phoenix. At any rate it's something to make note of during the first solid week of use. I'd suggest everyone who has one (right now) turn it off for an hour each day. In a weeks time we'll revisit the heat issue and see if it has cooled down some.


 I'm no expert and I've likely made a mistake or two with this statement so please go easy on the amateur engineering theory.

 Peete._

 

I've shot IR temps on mine quite often(RE1). Other than the time it got hotter because the ceiling fan was turned off, it is the same temp all the time, and since day 1. Hasn't changed.

 .


----------



## tim3320070

Peete,
 Just a morsel please- is the Phoenix much better, vastly better or? over the C-2C?
 Pretty please?


----------



## Drosera

Wow, this thread moves fast all of a sudden! Reminds me of those heady days when the prototypes of the Compass were arriving. Thanks to all for taking the time to post those impressions in between listening sessions (and keep 'em coming). Although I'm with Yikes in thinking that it will take a couple of months to really get to know how this thing sounds in the long term. (Or at the very least until IPodPJ's mini-MEGA-event.)

 A quick question to IPodPJ in particular: although I realize the performance of the Phoenix is basically on a totally different plane in performance than the Corda Opera, how would you judge the width of the Phoenix soundstage in particular as compared to that of your previous amp?


----------



## ServinginEcuador

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Edwood* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So Kingwa denied the sharpie cover up?_

 

Sharpie-gate anyone?


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tim3320070* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Peete,
 Just a morsel please- is the Phoenix much better, vastly better or? over the C-2C?
 Pretty please?_

 

Mine hasn't left China yet (according to EMS tracking). Hopefully by next week I'll have it unless the EMS tracking page is totally off the mark (and it shows up tomorrow).

 Les...mine did run hot at first then settled down to warm. The temp diff isn't much maybe 5F if that. Of course I can't prove that so YM has V'd 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Peete.


----------



## Zorlac

Put my money down on the Phoenix a few days ago and my D7000s showed up recabled from HeadAmp too. I'm like a little kid waiting for Christmas morning LOL! Cannot wait to hear my first fully balanced rig!!


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Edwood* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So Kingwa denied the sharpie cover up?_

 

No, no. He never denied it, he just suggested it could have happened in customs. Either way he will still send me a replacement panel.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *boomana* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks, haloxt for explaining some things. As for the above, I've got nothing against Amos, and have found him to be a more-or-less straight shooter, as they say, here and elsewhere. I just know that he has invested himself personally in getting this amp to development and in bringing it to head-fiers, and because of that, I'm just not sure how much of that personal investment might influence his impressions. If it had been me doing same, I would hope you'd weigh anything I might say with extreme skepticism. That's all._

 

Amos wasn't alone in the venture, if anything those of us that have contributed may actually be even harder on the unit than a regular guy who just bought the amp. Our expectations are high and you can bet if there is a deficit or deficits they *will* be pointed out.

 As always everyone/anyone is free to dismiss whoever they want. The best way to judge anything is with your own ears. When it comes down to brass tacks every gear purchase is a minor or major leap of faith depending on the monetary amounts invested and available trustworthy info. Even trusted advice can vary when it's your ears on the other end of the wire.

 I imagine I'm preaching to the choir with this kind of thinking ....2 cents FWIW.

 Peete.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Edwood* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_At the very least it could keep the front panel from getting very hot. So that way the knobs aren't hot to the touch.

 -Ed_

 

I am not having that issue. My knobs don't get hot, maybe just a little warm. But I also have the A/C circulating in the proximity of it.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Why not use the remote control and give your knobs a rest 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 ?

 Peete.


----------



## tim3320070

hot knobs...........the 12 year old in me is laughing wildly


----------



## Edwood

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No, no. He never denied it, he just suggested it could have happened in customs. Either way he will still send me a replacement panel._

 

OK, that's good to hear.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Drosera* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_A quick question to IPodPJ in particular: although I realize the performance of the Phoenix is basically on a totally different plane in performance than the Corda Opera, how would you judge the width of the Phoenix soundstage in particular as compared to that of your previous amp?_

 

I'm really not so good at describing these things 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. The soundstage of the Phoenix sounds as it would through speakers with the HD800. It is wider when the recording calls for it, and less when it doesn't. The biggest compliment I can give this amp is that it doesn't impart anything that sounds artificial. The music just sounds natural, as it should. The Opera had a somewhat wide soundstage but not very deep. Usually if you hear more treble that results in a perceived deeper soundstage. Also, because of this certain power cords make the soundstage wider but less deep and others deeper but less wide.

 The way I have my power cords (and power related stuff) configured are:

 • Audio-gd Phoenix -> VD Master LE 2.0 power cord -> wall outlet
 • CryoParts PS Audio Juice Bar II -> Audio-gd exclusive power cord -> wall outlet
 • RAM modded PS Audio DL3 -> Locus Design Group Axis power cord -> CryoParts PS Audio Juice Bar II
 • CIAudio VDC 9.0 regulated power supply for Squeezebox Duet -> Cobalt Cable Ultimate Power cord -> CryoParts PS Audio Juice Bar II
 • PS Audio Noise Harvester -> CryoParts PS Audio Juice Bar II


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Edwood* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_OK, that's good to hear._

 

And if you want to hear the Phoenix, you know where it will be on July 11th.


----------



## DoYouRight

So now has anyone been able to compare a B22 and Phoenix?


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DoYouRight* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So now has anyone been able to compare a B22 and Phoenix?_

 

Not directly, but we will be doing this at the L.A. Meet with a balanced B22.


----------



## Drosera

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tim3320070* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_hot knobs...........the 12 year old in me is laughing wildly_

 

LOL, glad I wasn't the only one.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm really not so good at describing these things 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. The soundstage of the Phoenix sounds as it would through speakers with the HD800. It is wider when the recording calls for it, and less when it doesn't. The biggest compliment I can give this amp is that it doesn't impart anything that sounds artificial. The music just sounds natural, as it should. The Opera had a somewhat wide soundstage but not very deep. Usually if you hear more treble that results in a perceived deeper soundstage. Also, because of this certain power cords make the soundstage wider but less deep and others deeper but less wide.

 The way I have my power cords (and power related stuff) configured are:

 • Audio-gd Phoenix -> VD Master LE 2.0 power cord -> wall outlet
 • CryoParts PS Audio Juice Bar II -> Audio-gd exclusive power cord -> wall outlet
 • RAM modded PS Audio DL3 -> Locus Design Group Axis power cord -> CryoParts PS Audio Juice Bar II
 • CIAudio VDC 9.0 regulated power supply for Squeezebox Duet -> Cobalt Cable Ultimate Power cord -> CryoParts PS Audio Juice Bar II
 • PS Audio Noise Harvester -> CryoParts PS Audio Juice Bar II_

 

Thanks for the elaborate answer. The fact that the soundstage varies based on what is called for suggests that it is very well defined. Of course, the HD800 probably helps. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 That's an impressive array of power-related equipment. I wish I had remained an unbeliever when it comes to this stuff. Then I could just say you're nuts and disregard it all. But alas...


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Drosera* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's an impressive array of power-related equipment. I wish I had remained an unbeliever when it comes to this stuff. Then I could just say you're nuts and disregard it all. But alas... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

That's what I used to say, too, before I tried out some good power cords. I didn't realize that a power cord could affect the sound signature of a piece of gear so much. But it does.

 Speaking of which, Virtual Dynamics is apparently selling the Master LE 2.0 for dirt cheap right now. When I got mine it was selling for $2K but now they are selling this model for $624! (I got mine as a B-stock for $900 though). If I had the spare cash I would be all over this, even though I hate the company. They do make some of the best power cords in the world though, that much I promise you.


----------



## gjkphd

One of you who got the amp yesterday mentioned that it had a bunch of extra wires and or connectors. There's a termination conversion kit listed on the audio g-d website for about $30. That wasn't included in the amp unless it was ordered extra, right? BTW thanks for the detailed correspondence about the amp, you guys


----------



## haloxt

The headphone mod package isn't the 4 CAST and 4 DC connectors.

 "The parts of the headphone modification, price is USD30, (inc one female 4 Pins plug and one male 4 Pins plug, some tapes and some WBT tins.)"

 Btw I'm almost done balancing my pro 900's hehe, I'm getting stressed out because it's so confusing and moon-audio is dealing out instructions very slowly.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Yeah the Neutrik 4 pin kit is a 30US add on option gjk. I ordered one (among other things) and will give it a go on a DIY cable I have sitting here. EDIT : haloxt beat me to it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 As for power cables if I bought a 700US power cable the wife would string me up with it...can't say I'd blame her but I agree with the whole mains cable/conditioning exercise in general. The benefits of which are audible although the subject does have some controversy surrounding it. Good quality stuff is always a plus IMO so I'll leave it at that.

 Peete.


----------



## DoYouRight

Please give a true comparison as I am on the fence a little with my 6 board balanced b22 build. Thanks


----------



## Currawong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *boomana* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_As I've been following this thread with semi-detached interest, I'm just curious how many folks jumped in on this promotional run: ipodpj, my cranky friend les 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 , Mr. Yikes, halotx, and Currawong. Is that it?

 The reason I'm asking is that I'm trying to get a handle on what's real vs. enthusiasm. Yikes has the chops and sense to actually provide meaning and context; les is such a good nudge, I give his thoughts some weight; ipodpj is a such fountain of superlatives with everything lately, I have no idea what any of it means; Currawong has way too much of a personal connection/investment (sorry, but that's the way I see it); and I don't really know halotx's experience at all. Not trying to personalize this, guys, but I am curious about this amp, and I do pay attention to who is saying what._

 

Fair call. It's been impressed on me, indirectly, the importance of avoiding hype and un-realistic expectations, so I'm much more careful about what I post now. I'd rather enjoy music than be stressed out by forums again.


----------



## haloxt

Headphone balance hack job is a success! Unhelpful person at moon-audio didn't think I could do it ^^ so that take! But I don't think I did a very thorough soldering inside the headphone, strong enough to stay connected but I didn't use a lot of solder, will that impact sound quality and I should go back and resolder?

 I am getting a lot of sibilance and some other issues now probably because I'm using a brand new headphone cable and it needs to burn in (seems to be going through the same issues as my first blue dragon cable). But I get the feeling that balanced has more control than SE, and I definitely am hearing improved vocals, reminiscent of the HFI-2200 headphones I gave to my mom. Now I'm burning in dac19mk3, Phoenix, and headphone cable all at once, you can count me out on Phoenix burn-in observations.

 I don't think 99 has more volume than 70, I get the same volume with 21/99 and 14/70, which is my max normal hearing volume with the rather sensitive/low impedance Pro 900. Also I haven't used a fan in like a decade but I got one out because the Phoenix is painful to the touch for longer than 2 seconds, Georgia summer heat is too much lol.


----------



## Mik

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Mine hasn't left China yet (according to EMS tracking). Hopefully by next week I'll have it unless the EMS tracking page is totally off the mark (and it shows up tomorrow).

 Les...mine did run hot at first then settled down to warm. The temp diff isn't much maybe 5F if that. Of course I can't prove that so YM has V'd 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Peete._

 

Punch in your tracking number into Canada Post's tracking system instead of the one at ems.com.cn. I'm also in Toronto and mine left China as of yesterday morning and is en route to Canada.


----------



## punk_guy182

Yeah mine left China (GUANGZHOU) 2009/06/2401:29AM.
 I guess we won't receive our packages before monday.


----------



## Edwood

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yeah the Neutrik 4 pin kit is a 30US add on option gjk. I ordered one (among other things) and will give it a go on a DIY cable I have sitting here. EDIT : haloxt beat me to it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 As for power cables if I bought a 700US power cable the wife would string me up with it...can't say I'd blame her but I agree with the whole mains cable/conditioning exercise in general. The benefits of which are audible although the subject does have some controversy surrounding it. Good quality stuff is always a plus IMO so I'll leave it at that.

 Peete._

 

*$30 is a major rip off. *

 Even with paying shipping, it costs a LOT less to buy via Pro audio parts vendors like Marketek.

 NC4MXX Neutrik NC4MXX 4 Pole Male Cable
Neutrik USA Inc Neutrik NC4MXX & NC4FXX 4 Pole Cable Connectors XLR Connectors at Markertek.com

 Other versions:

 NC4MX 
 4 pole male cable connector, Nickel housing, silver contacts

 NC4MX-B 
 4 pole male cable connector, black metal housing, gold contacts

 NC4MX-BAG 
 4 pole male cable connector, black metal housing, silver contacts


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Edwood* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*$30 is a major rip off. *

 Even with paying shipping, it costs a LOT less to buy via Pro audio parts vendors like Marketek.

 NC4MXX Neutrik NC4MXX 4 Pole Male Cable
Neutrik USA Inc Neutrik NC4MXX & NC4FXX 4 Pole Cable Connectors XLR Connectors at Markertek.com

 Other versions:

 NC4MX 
 4 pole male cable connector, Nickel housing, silver contacts

 NC4MX-B 
 4 pole male cable connector, black metal housing, gold contacts

 NC4MX-BAG 
 4 pole male cable connector, black metal housing, silver contacts_

 

Well, if you're in China, and have to source and then make up the kit and make a profit from it, it's not unreasonable. Kingwa doesn't really have access to Markertek. When I asked him to source Black Neutriks for the Phoenix, he said he couldn't get them. I bought some to send him for mine. By this time he realized it was a good idea and found a source for them. When he did the Compass, he had not found a source yet. So cut him a little slack for putting it together with WBT solder and instructions. If you can make your own kit, you would not be inclined to buy his. I don't begrudge the man making a living. Would I buy his kit, ahhh I do a lot of biz with Markertek, and that's how it pans out. If you know, you know, if you don't know, ante up.


 .


----------



## XXII

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Edwood* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*$30 is a major rip off. *
_

 

I don't think it's THAT bad. It's impossible to find male 4-pin XLRs in Hong Kong (I've tried 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




). Even the Neutrik distributor can't get them!


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Edwood* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*$30 is a major rip off. *

 Even with paying shipping, it costs a LOT less to buy via Pro audio parts vendors like Marketek.

 NC4MXX Neutrik NC4MXX 4 Pole Male Cable
Neutrik USA Inc Neutrik NC4MXX & NC4FXX 4 Pole Cable Connectors XLR Connectors at Markertek.com

 Other versions:

 NC4MX 
 4 pole male cable connector, Nickel housing, silver contacts

 NC4MX-B 
 4 pole male cable connector, black metal housing, gold contacts

 NC4MX-BAG 
 4 pole male cable connector, black metal housing, silver contacts_

 


 Wish I'd known about this a week ago...I looked around for a 4pin male and female jack (from the same store) but it didn't turn up in my usual parts haunts. I don't mind the 30US so much but I agree if you can source stuff for far cheaper locally than by all means.

 Peete.


----------



## sandchak

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Fair call. It's been impressed on me, indirectly, the importance of avoiding hype and un-realistic expectations, so I'm much more careful about what I post now. I'd rather enjoy music than be stressed out by forums again. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

No its not fair, Curra. Guys like you and Peete have been taking the initiatives from the days of Zero, and if not for you guys there wouldn't have been Compass, REF1 or even Phoenix for that matter - to me these amount to contributions, rather than saying something which is getting rather sickening. 

 Its as stupid and sickening as me saying theres a big conspiracy against companies like Audio GD, because seeing the entire CANJAM 2009 posts, there isn't a single picture or a decent mention of Audio GD gears.

 What I am saying is, its Ok if you have come to that (what is quoted) conclusion by yourself, but it would amount to being sad if its based on some flying comments made with no intentions but splitting the thread.

 In any case, I think its about time and good for Audio GD to have their own forum by becoming a sponsor, two reasons - one is that they can deal with users directly ( which they are doing very well already) and secondly such comments posted without any grounds against people's integrity can be deleted.


----------



## Currawong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sandchak* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No its not fair, Curra. Guys like you and Peete have been taking the initiatives from the days of Zero, and if not for you guys there wouldn't have been Compass, REF1 or even Phoenix for that matter - to me these amount to contributions, rather than saying something which is getting rather sickening. 

 Its as stupid and sickening as me saying theres a big conspiracy against companies like Audio GD, because seeing the entire CANJAM 2009 posts, there isn't a single picture or a decent mention of Audio GD gears.

 What I am saying is, its Ok if you have come to that (what is quoted) conclusion by yourself, but it would amount to being sad if its based on some flying comments made with no intentions but splitting the thread.

 In any case, I think its about time and good for Audio GD to have their own forum by becoming a sponsor, two reasons - one is that they can deal with users directly ( which they are doing very well already) and secondly such comments posted without any grounds against people's integrity can be deleted._

 

Now I've seen all the different perspectives, what it really boils down to is this: If Audio-gd makes good gear and does things in line with community expectations (hence why I pointed him in the direction of Jude for sponsorship and jp# for Canjam) then there are no problems. All Boomana and Edwood want is to ensure that this is a good product, and not one that people are buying just because of hype.

 I had hoped that people with a lot of experience would do some comparisons of the Ref 1 with other DACs at Canjam but unfortunately it didn't happen. I really do want to know where it stands in the scheme of things.

 Going by the EMS tracking, my Phoenix is due for delivery today.


----------



## squall343

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Headphone balance hack job is a success! Unhelpful person at moon-audio didn't think I could do it ^^ so that take! But I don't think I did a very thorough soldering inside the headphone, strong enough to stay connected but I didn't use a lot of solder, will that impact sound quality and I should go back and resolder?

 I am getting a lot of sibilance and some other issues now probably because I'm using a brand new headphone cable and it needs to burn in (seems to be going through the same issues as my first blue dragon cable). But I get the feeling that balanced has more control than SE, and I definitely am hearing improved vocals, reminiscent of the HFI-2200 headphones I gave to my mom. Now I'm burning in dac19mk3, Phoenix, and headphone cable all at once, you can count me out on Phoenix burn-in observations.

 I don't think 99 has more volume than 70, I get the same volume with 21/99 and 14/70, which is my max normal hearing volume with the rather sensitive/low impedance Pro 900. Also I haven't used a fan in like a decade but I got one out because the Phoenix is painful to the touch for longer than 2 seconds, Georgia summer heat is too much lol._

 

I am thinking since dac19mk3 is an unbalanced dac

 would getting a balanced dac yield a better quality?


----------



## lmswjm

Question for IPodPJ:

 Headphones to match the Phoenix? Obviously you recommend the HD800. Am trying to figure out what'll work for me. I kinda ruled out the 800's initially because of others saying it's bass-lite and less involving than others. I am surmising that the Phoenix may eradicate those criticisms. 

 As far as bass: Always liked the 650's low presentation. Didn't like the Markl mod'd D5000's. The Ed. 9's were overkill for me. I did an anti-Markl mod on the 5000's that brought the drivers closer to the ear, even more than stock, resulting in a slightly opened, unsealed can which is currently my mainstay. I'm using the Rudi RPX-33 for amplification.

 I always preferred phones that put you onstage, as opposed to a presentation that puts you in the seats further back in the venue. I thought that was the biggest strength of the Ed. 9, though I knew the drivers were inferior to the Denon's, hence what inspired my mod'ing.

 After reading your posts, I put the 800's back on the radar. Still considering the D7000's also. Ruled out all of the Grados from reading other posts.

 Any advice from you or anyone else would be most appreciated.


----------



## IPodPJ

lmswjm,

 The HD800 through the SS amps I heard sounded anywhere from a few rows back to many rows back. Tube amps like the DNA Sonett put you up front but still had a very wide sound stage. Yes, I definitely recommend the HD800. I'll probably sell my other headphones since they will never get any listening time. No point listening to them when you have a superior headphone right next to them. But I will say that the Phoenix/HD800 puts you closer than most other SS amps I have heard.

 I'm sorry if this sounds critical of anyone's opinion, but don't believe what you hear about the HD800 being bass light. It's just not true at all and is only bass light if the system makes it sound that way - it is zero fault of the headphones (and I will gladly show that to anyone who comes to the L.A. meet). I am hearing deeper and more powerful bass than the D5000, but it is tight and accurate! There is no bloating, no lack of extension, and no mid-bass hump. The other night it sounded a little bass light (to me) with a certain power cord I had on the Phoenix, and then when I switched the cords around I got a beautiful midrange and extremely well defined bass with plenty of punch. If it's in the recording, and your system isn't choking the bass, you will hear it.

 I heard the ED9 and in every area except the bass they sounded really nice to me. The bass sounded like a muddy mess and had horrible detail. But that could have been the amp it was paired with. Paul Taylor of Ultrasone contacted me and is generously loaning us an ED8 and ED9 for the meet, so I will spend as much time as I can on the Sunday after the meet listening to them. I am only going to be receiving them right before the meet and have to return them right after because they need them for other events. Ken Ball is also generously loaning me the Amphora and some interconnects which I will also compare to the Phoenix, and of course will be at the meet. I have much more time to spend with the Amphora as it should be here in a few days.

 I didn't spend much time with the D7000 at CanJam, just about 10 minutes on my own system. They are much better than the D5000, that's for sure. They have more detail and less bass bloat, and the bass extends further. I'd like to hear them on the Phoenix to see what they are truly capable of. But the fact remains that they use the same driver that's in the D5000 (with a slightly more powerful magnet) and it just isn't physically capable of revealing what the HD800 does. But you can also get the D7000 for $550. You can't get the HD800 for under $1400, so I would expect the HD800 to be a much better headphone.

 I don't like Grados at all. Never have. I tried the GS1000 and the PS1000 there and the only one I thought sounded pretty good was the HF-2. Grados present the music as if it is coming from two drivers on your ears, like most headphones do. The HD800 present the music as if it is coming from within your room.

 If you have the RPX-33 then you are bound to get a laid back and smooth presentation with most of these phones anyway. Rudistor amps are designed to have that sort of presentation. The new RPX-300 was very smooth and detailed from what I heard, though it was music of Rudi's choosing.


----------



## les_garten

I did some things to abate the heat.

 I didn't record all the temps initially, but I remember the bottom was about 120F. The sides and front were about 117F.

 The chassis were stacked. This is not my long term plan, but till I make another set of DC cables, that's what i am living with.

 1st Thing tried, add spacers to put some space between the chassis with Sorbothane Pucks I had handy. Not much help there.

 2nd thing, Place the PSU on top instead of the Bottom. This made a huge difference! About a 13 degree drop on the Bottom, front dropped about 13 degrees also.

 3rd thing, open top. another 5 to 6 degrees all around drop. Almost 20 degrees drop all around. The top made less of a drop than switching the chassis around, but dropped it some. Much cooler running.

 There are some heat generators "inside" the box that have no outlet for their heat. The two HeatSink'd Transistors in the middle of the board radiate their heat into the box. Vents would help these it would seem. One of them runs about 148 degrees, and the other about 156 degrees.

 The center transfo is not heatsinked to anything and radiates into the box. It runs about 134 as do the other transfos. They are on skid plates and are "somewhat" coupled to the bottom for some heat dissipation. 

 I'm going to watch it some more. It takes a long time to ramp up the heat soak. If you only run it 2-3 hours at a time, it does not get real hot. Also the PSU on the top makes a huge difference. 

 Closed, PSU on TOP:
 >> Front 101
 >> Top 100
 >> Side 104
 >> Bottom 107

 Open , PSU on TOP:
 >> Front 96
 >> Top --
 >> Side 97
 >> Bottom 102

 As I said before with the PSU on bottom, closed, and no space other than the feet between the boxes, the bottom was 120-121F and the sides were like 117-118.

 The sound coming out of it is amazing! It has the best part of tube SQ and the best part of SS SQ. It is amazing how it can reveal detail without being the least bit strident or Harsh. I'm running it balanced Input at present and SE output.

 EDIT: Response from Kingwa:

 Dear Les,
 Don't need open any holes on the Phoenix.
 Usually , transformers amp need some warm then sound better. So some well know brand gears also is warm or hot. If the gears not enough warm, sound also bad a little. That is what I find.
 And Phoenix is less than 50 C, so don't worry that.
 Kingwa

 The PSU box on top scenario effectively got rid of my heat problem.

 .


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_As I said before with the PSU on bottom, closed, and no space other than the feet between the boxes, the bottom was 120-121F and the sides were like 117-118.

 The sound coming out of it is amazing! It has the best part of tube SQ and the best part of SS SQ. It is amazing how it can reveal detail without being the least bit strident or Harsh. I'm running it balanced Input at present and SE output.

 ._

 

Les,

 But the PSU is supposed to go on top anyway, as is shown in the pics.

 Yeah, I'm afraid to even talk about the SQ at this point because I don't want some people jumping down my throat for giving more positive "INITIAL" impressions. But I'll say that I do not want to take the headphones off of my head. I can say with high confidence (but not positive) that there is no other SS headphone amp of this caliber (even though many come close). I'm also pretty confident that the impressions from other people at the L.A. Meet will back up my claims. And I have yet to try it with balanced outputs.

 That was also one of the first impressions I gave Les, that it combines the best of tube and SS. I'm glad you echo my feelings on that.

 It drives the HD800 better than any other amp I've tried it with (but again, I wasn't able to use my power cords on the amps I heard at CanJam, nor was I in my own home so that's just based on what I did hear), and I have a feeling much of that has to do with the massive amount of headroom this amp has. The power output ratings are extremely high and exactly what I was looking for. The funny thing is that I am actually PREFERRING to listen at lower volumes because you can hear all the details at low volumes that you can at higher volumes!!!

 Kingwa will do very well with sales of this amp, that much I'm absolutely positive of. I just hope he doesn't decide to jack up the price like he did with the REF-1. With that said, even if this amp cost $3,000 I'd still want to buy it and it would be worth every penny. But I probably shouldn't give him any ideas.


----------



## D_4_Dog

I broke down and gave Mr He my $1000. Fingers crossed i don't get the mislabled or sharpie-fixed version eh?


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *D_4_Dog* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I broke down and gave Mr He my $1000. Fingers crossed i don't get the mislabled or sharpie-fixed version eh? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I don't think you'll have that problem. He clearly understood how angry we were and pledged to not do it again.

 I can't even imagine what this amp would sound like if you use the CAST inputs with the REF-1, and even with the CD-7. I'm just dying to hear it with a balanced HD800 cable.


----------



## XXII

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I heard the ED9 and in every area except the bass they sounded really nice to me. The bass sounded like a muddy mess and had horrible detail. But that could have been the amp it was paired with. Paul Taylor of Ultrasone contacted me and is generously loaning us an ED8 and ED9 for the meet, so I will spend as much time as I can on the Sunday after the meet listening to them. I am only going to be receiving them right before the meet and have to return them right after because they need them for other events. Ken Ball is also generously loaning me the Amphora and some interconnects which I will also compare to the Phoenix, and of course will be at the meet. I have much more time to spend with the Amphora as it should be here in a few days._

 

I believe the main selling point of the Ed9 is its bass! To the basshead/ed9 owner, this comment probably suggests to them that the HD800 is bass light!

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Kingwa will do very well with sales of this amp, that much I'm absolutely positive of. I just hope he doesn't decide to jack up the price like he did with the REF-1. With that said, even if this amp cost $3,000 I'd still want to buy it and it would be worth every penny. But I probably shouldn't give him any ideas._

 

Up to $3000? For my money I would rather get a GS-X or beta22. To me, the Phoenix is tempting at its current price range but definitely no more than $1500. As GS-X owner, I'm very interested in comparisons with the Phoenix.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *XXII* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Up to $3000? For my money I would rather get a GS-X or beta22. To me, the Phoenix is tempting at its current price range but definitely no more than $1500. As GS-X owner, I'm very interested in comparisons with the Phoenix._

 

And you know this..... because you've heard the Phoenix? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 So it can't possibly be worth that much, right?


----------



## XXII

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_And you know this..... because you've heard the Phoenix? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 So it can't possibly be worth that much, right?_

 

Well I'm just saying that if the Phoenix were $3000 I would rather get a beta22 or GS-X. I'm sure many people would agree.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *XXII* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well I'm just saying that if the Phoenix were $3000 I would rather get a beta22 or GS-X. I'm sure many people would agree. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

And why on earth would you want to do that if the Phoenix was a better amp? I'm not saying it is or will be to you, but to make a judgement like that before you've even heard this amp is extremely silly.

 The GS-X is made in the U.S. and most builders who have made the B22 are in the U.S. The Phoenix is made in China and labor rates are a tiny fraction of what they are here. So even though the Phoenix is selling for $1000 ($1330 in a few more days), that doesn't mean it wouldn't cost $3000 or more if it were built here. Also, the Phoenix is using technology (CAST) that has never been used in a headphone amp before. When you turn the amp on, it boots up like a computer for the first few seconds. I'm sure others will now try to use CAST in their designs, too.

 I hate when people judge equipment based on price. Price gives you a reference point or an approximation of two similar products if they are built in the same region, but that's all. If I made you a Chicken Parmesan dinner and it was inexpensive to make, isn't it conceivable that my Chicken Parmesan could taste better than the one you ate at the expensive restaurant?


----------



## XXII

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_And why on earth would you want to do that if the Phoenix was a better amp? I'm not saying it is or will be to you, but to make a judgement like that before you've even heard this amp is extremely silly._

 

Well I would like to try it but it's a lot easier said than done. I'm not basing my decision completely on price. There have been loads of impressions of the GS-X and Beta22 that are equally as glowing as yours. 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The GS-X is made in the U.S. and most builders who have made the B22 are in the U.S. The Phoenix is made in China and labor rates are a tiny fraction of what they are here. So even though the Phoenix is selling for $1000 ($1330 in a few more days), that doesn't mean it wouldn't cost $3000 or more if it were built here._

 

I don't doubt it would cost at least $2000 if made in the US. But I also believe there is a discount in quality because it is made in China (however slight). 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I hate when people judge equipment based on price. Price gives you a reference point or an approximation of two products if they are built in the same region, but that's all. If I made you a Chicken Parmesan dinner and it was inexpensive to make, isn't it conceivable that my Chicken Parmesan could be better than the one you ate at the expensive restaurant?_

 

Now you've made me hungry 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## chesebert

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *XXII* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well I would like to try it but it's a lot easier said than done. I'm not basing my decision completely on price. There have been loads of impressions of the GS-X and Beta22 that are equally as glowing as yours. 



 I don't doubt it would cost at least $2000 if made in the US. But I also believe there is a discount in quality because it is made in China (however slight). 



 Now you've made me hungry 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




._

 

I know Kingwa and his stuff is a controversial topic on the Chinese hi-fi boards, but just let IpodPJ have his moment of glowing review (we all do things like this when we goo and gaa over our new stuff)


----------



## lmswjm

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_lmswjm,

 The HD800 through the SS amps I heard sounded anywhere from a few rows back to many rows back. Tube amps like the DNA Sonett put you up front but still had a very wide sound stage. Yes, I definitely recommend the HD800. I'll probably sell my other headphones since they will never get any listening time. No point listening to them when you have a superior headphone right next to them. But I will say that the Phoenix/HD800 puts you closer than most other SS amps I have heard.

 I'm sorry if this sounds critical of anyone's opinion, but don't believe what you hear about the HD800 being bass light. It's just not true at all and is only bass light if the system makes it sound that way - it is zero fault of the headphones (and I will gladly show that to anyone who comes to the L.A. meet). I am hearing deeper and more powerful bass than the D5000, but it is tight and accurate! There is no bloating, no lack of extension, and no mid-bass hump. The other night it sounded a little bass light (to me) with a certain power cord I had on the Phoenix, and then when I switched the cords around I got a beautiful midrange and extremely well defined bass with plenty of punch. If it's in the recording, and your system isn't choking the bass, you will hear it._

 

Thanks for the advice! I guess I'll have to take the HD800 plunge now (was planning on a RE1 next) and experience it for myself.


----------



## Currawong

Mine arrived. The packing was quite good, not as troublesome as I imagined it would be. Everything looks good with a couple of a couple of things that might bother people: The remote was wrapped in regular Styrofoam which isn't so great, as it generates static and is messy. The screws in the remote were so tightly done up that I stripped one trying to remove (to find out there was already a battery in there and I didn't need to install the one that came spare. The remote appears to be hand-made and the buttons are a bit wobbly. The data cable with its weird extra wire looks rather kludged. The mute option is only available on the remote. The input selector knob on the front panel changes inputs with two or three "clicks", not one, which is a bit weird. The remote does this with one press. I'm ambivalent regarding the labels for the inputs, which I guess were put there after a screw-up with the printing on the panels.

 Out of the box, a significant jump over the C2C, even single-ended with the HD-800s. The slight haze the C2C put over the music is not there with the Phoenix. The HD-800s are now a very serious threat to the Stax. I have done a bit of a quick A/B with CAST vs. my expensive XLR cables, and (noting that I can't volume match properly without an SPL meter) so far the CAST sounds as good. There's possibly a tiny amount of tonal change between the cables, but it's at a threshold at which I don't consider myself reliable in determining after only a little time listening.

 Overall: I'm very happy with the sound, but the small details still need work. 

 By the way, the trick to removing labels without leaving a mess is to peel them off very slowly.


----------



## lmswjm

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Mine arrived. Out of the box, a significant jump over the C2C, even single-ended with the HD-800s. The slight haze the C2C put over the music is not there with the Phoenix. The HD-800s are now a very serious threat to the Stax. I have done a bit of a quick A/B with CAST vs. my expensive XLR cables, and (noting that I can't volume match properly without an SPL meter) so far the CAST sounds as good. There's possibly a tiny amount of tonal change between the cables, but it's at a threshold at which I don't consider myself realiable in determing after only a little time listening._

 

What kind of CAST cables are you using?


----------



## haloxt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sandchak* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Its as stupid and sickening as me saying theres a big conspiracy against companies like Audio GD, because seeing the entire CANJAM 2009 posts, there isn't a single picture or a decent mention of Audio GD gears._

 

Actually I think there was a conspiracy. I was confused why no one talked about the Ref 1 at canjam on head-fi, tried searching everywhere and just let it go to rest thinking my search skill was terrible. But now I am especially confused (and suspicious of a conspiracy, did they replace it with an ipod dac or something???) because the Phoenix is just JAW-DROPPING, even though it is being fed by a typical optical output device and paired with audio-gd's mid-tier dac19mk3. IF IT IS ANYTHING LIKE THE PHOENIX YOU WOULD THINK IT WOULD GET AT LEAST A PASSING MENTION BY CANJAMMERS? Did they keep it hid under a table or something?

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *squall343* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am thinking since dac19mk3 is an unbalanced dac

 would getting a balanced dac yield a better quality? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Only Kingwa can answer your question fully. I did ask him to tell me if I should upgrade the compass amp to Phoenix amp after I bought my dac19mk3 and he replied that he thought C2C was best paired with the dac19mk3, although the dac19mk3 "can let the Phoenix work all performance." But he said he thought balanced dac would probably be better with the Phoenix. I suggest you ask Kingwa himself what does he think about dac19mk3 vs. balanced dacs paired with a Phoenix. Sounds damn amazing to me though ^^.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *chesebert* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I know Kingwa and his stuff is a controversial topic on the Chinese hi-fi boards, but just let IpodPJ have his moment of glowing review (we all do things like this when we goo and gaa over our new stuff) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Which forums?

 more impressions:

 After balancing the headphones the music is so life-like and expressive (my new cable is still very grainy and sloppy etc, I think it needs much more burn-in) it's like I can finally know what the musicians find pleasing about their own music. Before balancing it was always like "music is just a game about making lots of noise". Now my Pro 900 has beautiful vocals and is relaxing like I remember my HFI-2200 used to be until I gave it away, and that is Very impressive because I've never heard the Pro 900 sound in any way truly charming/honest until now. It's sad it costs that much to make my Pro 900 get a similar level of emotion as my HFI-2200 lol, but then again I am comparing studio closed headphones vs. open "fun" headphones.

 I can't compare the Phoenix to other high-end headphone amps, but I can say it improves upon the compass amp at least twice or even thrice as much as the dac19mk3 improved upon the compass dac. I thought the dac19mk3 was worth the money (to upgrade from compass dac) in some, but not all, cases, but the Phoenix is probably a much better bang-for-buck deal than the dac19mk3, which I am satisfied with but not anywhere near as satisfied as I am with the Phoenix. I suspect it may become the ultimate no-brainer option for those searching for a hi-fidelity balanced SS headphone amp.

 edit: oh yeah, and I tried doing a credit-card-taped-over-display mod to the PSU box, but the remote won't work when I do that 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. Ipodpj's option to turn off display was a good idea then lol. Anyone know of another material I can tape over the display and still use the remote?


----------



## tim3320070

Why not window tint used for cars? Cut to shape it might stay in there without glue or tape.


----------



## Currawong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *lmswjm* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What kind of CAST cables are you using?_

 

The ones that came with it. 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Actually I think there was a conspiracy. I was confused why no one talked about the Ref 1 at canjam on head-fi, tried searching everywhere and just let it go to rest thinking my search skill was terrible. But now I am especially confused (and suspicious of a conspiracy, did they replace it with an ipod dac or something???) because the Phoenix is just JAW-DROPPING, even though it is being fed by a typical optical output device and paired with audio-gd's mid-tier dac19mk3. IF IT IS ANYTHING LIKE THE PHOENIX YOU WOULD THINK IT WOULD GET AT LEAST A PASSING MENTION BY CANJAMMERS? Did they keep it hid under a table or something?_

 

I don't want to be rude, but this post of yours sounds ridiculous.

 The Ref 1 was connected to jp11801's rig, (the Canjam organiser). You can see it in one of the pictures. From what I understand, Canjam was the biggest ever held, with a crapload of gear there, such that I saw even heavily photographed gear hardly mentioned, such as those beautiful tube stax amps, made by someone whose name I have forgotten.


----------



## ServinginEcuador

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Actually I think there was a conspiracy. I was confused why no one talked about the Ref 1 at canjam on head-fi, tried searching everywhere and just let it go to rest thinking my search skill was terrible. But now I am especially confused (and suspicious of a conspiracy, did they replace it with an ipod dac or something???) because the Phoenix is just JAW-DROPPING, even though it is being fed by a typical optical output device and paired with audio-gd's mid-tier dac19mk3. IF IT IS ANYTHING LIKE THE PHOENIX YOU WOULD THINK IT WOULD GET AT LEAST A PASSING MENTION BY CANJAMMERS? Did they keep it hid under a table or something?_

 

I was there both days, and neither saw nor heard any Audio-gd gear. Couldn't even tell you where any of it was either. Maybe it was either buried in and around some really high-end gear so that it got overshadowed, or wasn't labeled. Either way, it matters not to me as I ordered a Phoenix anyway, and after reading some of these reviews am pretty sure it is the amp I was looking for to complete my system.


----------



## sandchak

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 By the way, the trick to removing labels without leaving a mess is to peel them off very slowly._

 

That is very true, I received 4 gears from Audio GD with stickers and they all removed very nice without leaving any residues behind, when they were pulled very gently - actually I was going to mention that myself, but then I thought it must be some real big problem, in the sense, that it might be some other kind of stickers..

 Anyway, that said, there is no reason why those stickers cant be removed before the gears are finally packed to ship because they are mostly meant for people assembling the gear.. Well, I hope Kingwa reads your post and shares this trick with his workers too!!..


----------



## haloxt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't want to be rude, but this post of yours sounds ridiculous.

 The Ref 1 was connected to jp11801's rig, (the Canjam organiser). You can see it in one of the pictures. From what I understand, Canjam was the biggest ever held, with a crapload of gear there, such that I saw even heavily photographed gear hardly mentioned, such as those beautiful tube stax amps, made by someone whose name I have forgotten._

 

I'm just perplexed at not hearing anything about the ref 1, I thought people were interested in audio-gd gear and were going to try it out during canjam. I don't think there was a conspiracy, just wondering why it didn't get any feedback. I only read a few posters commenting on their experience with the C2C and compass but seems like too few.


----------



## Drosera

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm just perplexed at not hearing anything about the ref 1, I thought people were interested in audio-gd gear and were going to try it out during canjam. I don't think there was a conspiracy, just wondering why it didn't get any feedback. I only read a few posters commenting on their experience with the C2C and compass but seems like too few._

 

How many reviews have you seen of sources in general from Canjam? Apart from that reel-to-reel deck I think there are actually very little. Canjam is about headphones first and headphone amps second. Also, all the Audio-gd gear was part of the raffle, which means that probably half of it had already been raffled off before Canjam was even halfway. This I think goes a long way towards explaining why you're hearing so little about it.

 IPodPJ did hear the Ref One at Canjam though, IIRC, and reported about it in his Canjam post.


----------



## Bob Jones

When you think about it IPodPJ is the only one who has heard and compared high end ss amps . Phonitor-Rudi Stro 300-B22-WA22 . Even if it wasn't under ideal conditions , it's the best comparisons out there right now . When I went from the WA6 to the Rudi Stor NX33 it was a quantum leap for me . Then I heard the Apache and others at the charlotte N.C. meet . The Apache was another Huge leap for me .


----------



## Pyriel0

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bob Jones* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_When you think about it IPodPJ is the only one who has heard and compared high end ss amps . Phonitor-Rudi Stro 300-B22-WA22 . Even if it wasn't under ideal conditions , it's the best comparisons out there right now . When I went from the WA6 to the Rudi Stor NX33 it was a quantum leap for me . Then I heard the Apache and others at the charlotte N.C. meet . The Apache was another Huge leap for me ._

 

Yes but he hasn't side by side compared any of them to the phoenix at home and is still claiming over and over its better. I think his comments are hurting the thread more than helping it anymore especially after talking down to XXII for having an opinion. A review would suffice instead of trying to push it as the best amp ever aka FOTM/new toy hype.


----------



## Bob Jones

I'm for any opinion at this time . $1000 is a lot less than $3000 for sure . I'll use the weekend to decide what to buy . Having said that , if I do buy the Pheonix and it dissapoints , I believe I could sell it for a small loss . I'll think about that before putting down $3 grand . Seems like win win .


----------



## NiToNi

I agree with Pyriel0 - but I gave in anyway and placed my order last night.

 Now we just need a matching Audio-GD DAC, the "Fenghuang" 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 It should be fully differential, based on a couple of the ESS Sabre32 Reference ES9018 DAC chip, with world class bad ass I/V and output stage, housed in the same two-split enclosures as the Phoenix with the PSU seperately. All the usual audio-gd goodies should be in it such as DSP and CAST current outputs. It should also have a superb master clock with a buffering/reclocking jitter reduction circuit. Besides CAST, it should have RCA and XLR outputs. Besides SPDIF coax and BNC, Toslink optical and AES/EBU, it should have I2S, asynchronous USB a la Wavelength and HDMI digital inputs. Built to beat competitors such as APL NWO-DAC1, BAD Alpha, Buffalo32 etc at roughly the same price target as the Phoenix.


----------



## Drosera

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *NiToNi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Now we just need a matching Audio-GD DAC, the "Fenghuang" 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It should be fully differential, based on a couple of the ESS Sabre32 Reference ES9018 DAC chip, with world class bad ass I/V and output stage, housed in the same two-split enclosures as the Phoenix with the PSU seperately. All the usual audio-gd goodies should be in it such as DSP and CAST current outputs. It should also have a superb master clock with a buffering/reclocking jitter reduction circuit. Besides CAST, it should have RCA and XLR outputs. Besides SPDIF coax and BNC, Toslink optical and AES/EBU, it should have I2S, asynchronous USB a la Wavelength and HDMI digital inputs. Built to roughly the same price target._

 

You should take this up with Kingwa, I think you'll find plenty to disagree on as to what makes a great DAC.


----------



## Fungi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bob Jones* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm for any opinion at this time . $1000 is a lot less than $3000 for sure . I'll use the weekend to decide what to buy . Having said that , if I do buy the Pheonix and it dissapoints , I believe I could sell it for a small loss . I'll think about that before putting down $3 grand . Seems like win win ._

 

Sounds like you're trying to rationalize an impulse buy.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pyriel0* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes but he hasn't side by side compared any of them to the phoenix at home and is still claiming over and over its better. I think his comments are hurting the thread more than helping it anymore especially after talking down to XXII for having an opinion. A review would suffice instead of trying to push it as the best amp ever aka FOTM/new toy hype._

 

Don't put words in my mouth. I never set it was the best amp out there, I said it is the best amp I've heard! And I said it combines the best of tube and SS, as did Les. I've stated several times I have not had most of those amps in my home to do fair comparisons with the same power cords. I'm not pushing anything, as you can do whatever you'd like with your own money. I'm telling you the positives of the amp. I also told you how extremely angry I was when I first got it. If I thought it had any sonic downsides (which I did before I let it warm up, and I posted those), I would mention them as well.

 I know a good piece of gear when I hear it, and I'm not going to sugarcoat it for you or anyone else. Am I the best at judging gear? I'm sure I'm not compared to many members with more experience than I have. These are my initial impressions right now, and if they change with time and it ceases to be my favorite amp, I will mention that as well. If this hinders your decision making process in any way, you are welcome to put me on ignore and not see my posts.

 You guys asked for initial impressions so you could get your orders in before the promotional price ends. If you don't like the impressions offered, then don't buy the amp. It's really that simple. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Or, you can wait until more people have had a chance to confirm what I'm telling you or deny it.


----------



## haloxt

We don't have to lecture each other about how to be objective okay? It's silly like explaining alphabets to people. And people keep speculating about the Phoenix or this or that amp being better and making arguments out of them. Just read our opinions and make what you will of it and stop being so vitriolic. Would you prefer if we didn't even give our impressions? Sometimes I'm glad the English of _certain people_ isn't perfect, so there's a chance they don't understand how embarrassingly immature we are being. Anyway, since I can't pit the Phoenix vs. other high end amps, no additional impressions from me will likely help inform people on the currently important topic of how it does vs. other amps.


----------



## tim3320070

Well, I am going to place an order I think. I asked about the back panel labeling (I want a corrected one) and he responded that a new panel would be ready for shipment possibly by the end of July. I am willing to wait for that.

 Currawong- any more impressions vs the C-2C?


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tim3320070* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Currawong- any more impressions vs the C-2C?_

 

He needs to let the amp really warm up first. It easily takes an hour or more for the sound to really settle in, and as was my case a good 4 - 6 hours after putting your power cords on it before it settled in. (Some power cord manufacturers tell you when you disconnect a cord it will take another 80 hours to settle in. I don't feel this is true from my experience, but yes they do take a little while to settle in.)


----------



## IPodPJ

I paid Alex to send my cable out overnight so I will have it tomorrow. I'll have the weekend to soak up fully balanced goodness.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Sigh....so no first impressions is the acceptable rule ? Seems rather selective in nature/application and is even less paletable considering this attention is not evenly applied to every thread posted in the amp forum (or elsewhere).


 Peete.


----------



## Pyriel0

Sorry that I did not put initial in front of review. I thought it would have been understood without saying.

 Haloxt: I actually would prefer nothing to an "omg look at my new best toy ever" impression.


----------



## K3cT

Well, we can't exactly blame the skeptics either as more often that not, excessive hyping/FOTM syndromes often plague this realm which make objectively judging a certain piece of gear difficult.

 It's a tough situation I know because it's really hard to contain one's excitement when you just received a new toy and it genuinely sounds good.


----------



## Yikes

I have no real opinion as to the sound of the Phoenix as a Headphone amplifier. I received a loaner pair of balanced Grado GS-1000's, the only problem being that I have no point of reference. The last and only time that I listened to the GS-1000's was when they showed up at the very end of the first national meet, how long ago was that? years.

 I am however using and enjoying the Phoenix as a Preamp. As a preamp it is at least as good as any $3000 preamp I've ever heard. At the asking price it is a raging bargain. Based on sound quality and build quality the Phoenix performs as well as or better than preamps that are sold for $3000 - $5000. The Phoenix as a preamp is far exceeding my expectations. As with all equipment evaluations it ends up being totally subjective.

 Based upon it's preamplifier performance and how it sounds driving the GS-1000's (Remember no reference point) I am fairly confident that for the asking price (Especially for the promotional price of $1000) it is an absolute bargain. How it stacks up against the two and three times as expensive amplifiers that people are asking about (B22, GS-X, Apache) will take some time to determine. IMO however what has already been determined is that it is a screaming bargain at the asking price. If you have the 2-3 thousand dollars necessary to purchase any of the more expensive amplifiers, and you are searching for the Best Amplifier for you, I'd suggest that you wait until you have a chance to audition all of the possibilities. Then if the Phoenix beats the competition you can buy one for $1330 and you will have paid $330 for the security of being sure about your purchase decision. If it doesn't beat the much more expensive competition you can then confidently buy your $3000 amplifier.


----------



## DoYouRight

True, Id like to stay with Audio-GD products, but the thrill and joy of listening to something I built is awesome. So I will keep doing the B22 and when it's done if I hear a Phoenix I will compare.


----------



## sandchak

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ 
 I am however using and enjoying the Phoenix as a Preamp. As a preamp it is at least as good as any $3000 preamp I've ever heard. At the asking price it is a raging bargain. Based on sound quality and build quality the Phoenix performs as well as or better than preamps that are sold for $3000 - $5000. The Phoenix as a preamp is far exceeding my expectations. As with all equipment evaluations it ends up being totally subjective.
_

 

Thanks Yikes for the impressions on Phoenix as a preamp, personally I am more keen on the preamp section for my future setup, and it sounds at least to someone like me Phoenix will be like killing two birds with one stone.

 I absolutely agree that such views are subjective, there is nothing called the BEST for all, mostly decisions are based on factors like " under the circumstances" , " for the price" and most importantly "to my personal taste".

 And also most people write to express themselves, the way they feel and not for others, so I dont see any reason why anyone should be grabbed by his collars because he seems so happy with what he has , just the way if someone is really unhappy about something ( although in this case no one bothers..)


----------



## IPodPJ

Ken's Amphora arrived, so I will have the weekend to compare that to the Phoenix.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Thanks for the honest thoughts Yikes. 

 Peete.


----------



## atothex

Just a quick tip if anyone has yet to receive it and is concerned about peeling stickers. The best way to peel is to do it at a 90 degree angle, so the tape makes an L shape if you're looking down at it. Do it slowly, and it shouldn't be much of a problem.


----------



## NiToNi

Can the Phoenix drive a pair of AKG K1000...?


----------



## Kees

I personally like to read any impression.
 I enjoy reading about people enjoying their new toy, and as far as I'm concerned they can express themselves in any way they like.


----------



## punk_guy182

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Kees* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I personally like to read any impression.
 I enjoy reading about people enjoying their new toy, and as far as I'm concerned they can express themselves in any way they like.



_

 

You're from Amsterdam aren't ya? I'm askin' because you sound like a free man. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 BTW, I also enjoy the comments posted so far. We'll enjoy more of them in the following days as this baby matures.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *atothex* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just a quick tip if anyone has yet to receive it and is concerned about peeling stickers. The best way to peel is to do it at a 90 degree angle, so the tape makes an L shape if you're looking down at it. Do it slowly, and it shouldn't be much of a problem._

 

Tried it slowly and it still did not work.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *NiToNi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Can the Phoenix drive a pair of AKG K1000...?_

 

I don't have the K1000 but I'm positive it will if they are balanced. This amp puts out a ton of power. SE input with SE output, maybe not since it is only 25% of available gain. Balanced input/SE output maybe since that will be 50% of available gain.


----------



## tim3320070

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Tried it slowly and it still did not work._

 

Get a hair dryer out to warm the glue up, if that doesn't work, well......it's just a sticker.


----------



## JamesL

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't have the K1000 but I'm positive it will if they are balanced. This amp puts out a ton of power. SE input with SE output, maybe not since it is only 25% of available gain. Balanced input/SE output maybe since that will be 50% of available gain._

 

I'd love to know what higher power output "means" in terms of actual performance, but as far as specs goes it seems even the unbalanced B22 would have a higher power output at 120ohms than a balanced pheonix.

 What does more power imply though? More control over the drivers?.. more gain? Actual power output, or maximum output?
 Also, does the wattage in pheonix spec's represent peak-to-peak or the root mean square?


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JamesL* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'd love to know what higher power output "means" in terms of actual performance, but as far as specs goes it seems even the unbalanced B22 would have a higher power output at 120ohms than a balanced pheonix.

 What does more power imply though? More control over the drivers?.. more gain? Actual power output, or maximum output?
 Also, does the wattage in pheonix spec's represent peak-to-peak or the root mean square?_

 

It means that you'd blow the headphone drivers way before you turned it to max volume. I got to about 70 out of 99 and it was so ridiculously loud I had to take it off my head and was worried another one or two notches would damage the drivers, not to mention a minute or two at that volume and I'd permanently damage my hearing. You turn it to 99 and I guarantee you won't have a headphone to listen to. This was with the 300 ohm HD800.

 Have you seen the rated output for this amp? It's been posted many times in this thread. Show me some other amps that have those ratings. I know because I looked before I purchased the Phoenix and I couldn't find any, when I was interested in a new amp before I even knew about the Phoenix. I wanted an amp with lots of headroom. And I got it.... I don't go more than 50 on the dial, and most of the time listen at 41 – 43. Now keep in mind, this is balanced input with single ended output. When I get my balanced cable tomorrow and I use the balanced outputs, it will be DOUBLE the power. So I imagine my volume then would be between 20 and 30. That's what I call a ton of headroom.

 I'm pretty sure those ratings are RMS but I can double check with Kingwa. And I'd say this amp definitely has more control over the drivers because of the quality I hear coming out of them. I'm sure the design of the amp and its available power both contribute to that.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Tried it slowly and it still did not work._

 

You can peel at any angle you want. You can peel at the rate of one sticker per week. You ain't getting those stickers off without a solvent. The only stickers A-HD has that come off easily are the ones on the HDAMs. They fall off by themsleves soon as they get warm.

 .


----------



## Currawong

I must have had better luck with the stickers than others then.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tim3320070* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Currawong- any more impressions vs the C-2C?_

 

The only thing I've done is tried my HD-600s SE and balanced, and there was a significant improvement balanced. I didn't listen that long as, simply, the HD-800s piss all over them. I haven't re-terminated my HD-800s yet.

 The only impression that's come to mind is that going from the C2C to the Phoenix was like going from the Northstar to the Ref 1, that is, going from something with colouration to something that doesn't have it, allowing me to just focus on enjoying the music.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *K3cT* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well, we can't exactly blame the skeptics either as more often that not, excessive hyping/FOTM syndromes often plague this realm which make objectively judging a certain piece of gear difficult.

 It's a tough situation I know because it's really hard to contain one's excitement when you just received a new toy and it genuinely sounds good. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

I think you summarised the situation well. The irony, of course, is that the anti-hype people are hyped about the presence of hype. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 IMO, I think it would be most worthy for people, overall, to encourage others to clarify their comments as far as possible. I might say I'm very happy with the Phoenix, but it is the best dynamic amp I've ever owned, so that puts it in context. 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *NiToNi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Can the Phoenix drive a pair of AKG K1000...?_

 

Back when I first heard from Kingwa that he was building a balanced amp, I told him it would have to be able to drive K1000s, which he'd never heard of until I mentioned them. Going presumably on spec, he said it should be able to drive them sufficiently. That doesn't say anything about how good an amp it will be with them, however. Tempted as I am to hunt down a pair to find out (mainly to find out for myself why they are such good headphones), I'm already in enough trouble with the HD-800s.


----------



## IPodPJ

Curra, there will be at least 3 pairs of K1000 at the L.A. Meet, so we will find out then how well it works with them.


----------



## cafe zeenuts

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It means that you'd blow the headphone drivers way before you turned it to max volume. I got to about 70 out of 99 and it was so ridiculously loud I had to take it off my head and was worried another one or two notches would damage the drivers, not to mention a minute or two at that volume and I'd permanently damage my hearing. You turn it to 99 and I guarantee you won't have a headphone to listen to. This was with the 300 ohm HD800.

 Have you seen the rated output for this amp? It's been posted many times in this thread. Show me some other amps that have those ratings. I know because I looked before I purchased the Phoenix and I couldn't find any, when I was interested in a new amp before I even knew about the Phoenix. I wanted an amp with lots of headroom. And I got it.... I don't go more than 50 on the dial, and most of the time listen at 41 – 43. Now keep in mind, this is balanced input with single ended output. When I get my balanced cable tomorrow and I use the balanced outputs, it will be DOUBLE the power. So I imagine my volume then would be between 20 and 30. That's what I call a ton of headroom.

 I'm pretty sure those ratings are RMS but I can double check with Kingwa. And I'd say this amp definitely has more control over the drivers because of the quality I hear coming out of them. I'm sure the design of the amp and its available power both contribute to that._

 



 LD MK6 is rated at 120ohm at 5W.....


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cafe zeenuts* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_LD MK6 is rated at 120ohm at 5W.....
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I'll be honest, I never checked out that amp. I did check out some tube amps but I wasn't in the market for a tube amp. I know tube amps put out a lot more power than SS, but I was referring to SS amps that put out that kind of power. And now with the Phoenix I feel I have both the benefit of tubes and SS. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It wasn't until CanJam that I heard some good tube amps and decided to add them to my list of future gear... at the top is the DNA Sonett. And the reason for that is that tube amps (by and large) had better control over the HD800 than SS...until the Phoenix came along and shattered my impression of SS amps.


----------



## cafe zeenuts

The Phoenix output power rating for SS amp is one the highest i have seen for a commercial amp. Anyone know what the power output for b22 balanced amp are???

 Tube amps require a lot of resource to achieve the right sound that you are after. Lots of tube rolling, sourcing the right tubes is the hardest part. But the rewards are great....


----------



## lmswjm

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The ones that came with it. _

 

Just for clarification, are you referring to the included DIY Cast terminations and your own cable, or the Shark Cast cables? If DIY, which cable are you implementing?


----------



## IPodPJ

I will say now that I've been spending some time going back and forth between the Amphora and Phoenix, as well as using Ken's silver cryo interconnects, my cobalt cable analog and digital, my silver serpent, and my 2 DC Locus Design custom squeezebox/CIAudio connector cables. There are so many freaking variables with audio, sometimes it drives me nuts. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The Amphora is a fun little amp. It has a very wide soundstage, not deep though. It's got balls for a little amp, lots of power. Details are average, sibilant at times too but that might be made worse by the ALO silver interconnects which seem to cause sibilance on the Phoenix too (but I'm only using it as a digital coax from my SB to my DL3). I already have silver elsewhere in my system so it might be too much. The Amphora has inputs and outputs for 1/8" and 1/4" which makes it a great amp for portable headphones and use with an iPod, which is what ALO really specializes in. I think it's on par with the Opera, maybe even a little better, certainly the soundstage is better. But comparing the Amphora to the Phoenix isn't really fair, since they are leagues apart. The Amphora is about 1/6 the size of the Phoenix stack and about 1/50 the weight, but it is a beautiful little amp. The woodwork is gorgeous and the mother of pearl inlay is a very nice touch. If you need a great little amp to take with you on trips, this fits the bill perfectly and runs on battery power. You can charge it at night.


----------



## IPodPJ

It's interesting how much this amp has to warm up before the music is at its best. It sounds great cold but not nearly as refined and smooth as it does when it gets heated. When you guys who are owners of the REF-1 said it needs to warm up, I wasn't sure what to make of your impressions but I see now exactly what you meant. Donald North said his tube amp needs at least 30 minutes to warm up. I'd say the Phoenix needs at least an hour.


----------



## gjkphd

Took the plunge and ordered today. Got an e-mail from Kingwa who stated that the new batch of cases with the proper rear labelling will be available end of July. I can wait for those or get one sooner. I can't decide, I'm eager but those paper labels shout 'IMPERFECT'. Maybe I'll flip a coin

 Also, I did order one of his termination conversion kits. Thanks to those who put in the links for a better deal on the balanced connectors. I got the kit because it includes the solder and all. I have never soldered anything in my life but my son-in-law is staying with me and he has. (Now I know someone will add that solder can probably be purchased for a pittance somewhere, I know I know). My question is--inside the single ended cable of my W5000 and my grado's are there 4 separate small wires to coinnect to the 4 pin xlr connector? or are there 3?


----------



## XXII

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gjkphd* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Took the plunge and ordered today. Got an e-mail from Kingwa who stated that the new batch of cases with the proper rear labelling will be available end of July. I can wait for those or get one sooner. I can't decide, I'm eager but those paper labels shout 'IMPERFECT'. Maybe I'll flip a coin

 Also, I did order one of his termination conversion kits. Thanks to those who put in the links for a better deal on the balanced connectors. I got the kit because it includes the solder and all. I have never soldered anything in my life but my son-in-law is staying with me and he has. (Now I know someone will add that solder can probably be purchased for a pittance somewhere, I know I know). My question is--inside the single ended cable of my W5000 and my grado's are there 4 separate small wires to coinnect to the 4 pin xlr connector? or are there 3?_

 

The W5000 is only 3 AFAIK (there is a splice in the Y-connector). So you can't just reterminate it. Your headphile HF-1 should be 4.


----------



## ServinginEcuador

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gjkphd* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Took the plunge and ordered today. Got an e-mail from Kingwa who stated that the new batch of cases with the proper rear labelling will be available end of July. I can wait for those or get one sooner. I can't decide, I'm eager but those paper labels shout 'IMPERFECT'. Maybe I'll flip a coin._

 

Now that poses a quandry: get it now, but with the printing error, or wait a month to get it with the printing fixed. I think I'll have to flip a coin myself as I'm torn. I really want the amp to get here, but knowing it has the printing errors is nagging at me.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gjkphd* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Took the plunge and ordered today. Got an e-mail from Kingwa who stated that the new batch of cases with the proper rear labelling will be available end of July. I can wait for those or get one sooner. I can't decide, I'm eager but those paper labels shout 'IMPERFECT'. Maybe I'll flip a coin

 Also, I did order one of his termination conversion kits. Thanks to those who put in the links for a better deal on the balanced connectors. I got the kit because it includes the solder and all. I have never soldered anything in my life but my son-in-law is staying with me and he has. (Now I know someone will add that solder can probably be purchased for a pittance somewhere, I know I know). My question is--inside the single ended cable of my W5000 and my grado's are there 4 separate small wires to coinnect to the 4 pin xlr connector? or are there 3?_

 

You're in Luck! Since I did some recabling and reterminations today, I decided to do a HowTo. Hope it helps!

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f6/bal...3/#post5797222

 .


----------



## gjkphd

that's funny, I figured I should probably look in the DIY section (an area I don't think I've ever entered before) and of course there was your step by step instructions. It helps, what might help more is a trip up to Jupiter
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You're in Luck! Since I did some recabling and reterminations today, I decided to do a HowTo. Hope it helps!

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f6/bal...3/#post5797222

 ._


----------



## gjkphd

thanks, I see I'm already in over my head

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *XXII* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The W5000 is only 3 AFAIK (there is a splice in the Y-connector). So you can't just reterminate it. Your headphile HF-1 should be 4._


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ServinginEcuador* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Now that poses a quandry: get it now, but with the printing error, or wait a month to get it with the printing fixed. I think I'll have to flip a coin myself as I'm torn. I really want the amp to get here, but knowing it has the printing errors is nagging at me._

 

I think he should have disclosed that the "Initial" sales would be "Prototypes". I think he did try to do this when he called them test pieces. But he was taken to the cleaners over that post to the webpage and it was taken down within hours, maybe minutes after the uproar. He then made statements about how the SQ wouldn't change, he didn't let us know that the spelling would though. 

 .


----------



## jimmychan

Sometimes using a hair blower to heat up the sticker, it can be easily peeled.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jimmychan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sometimes using a hair blower to heat up the sticker, it can be easily peeled._

 

Good tip jimmy.

 .


----------



## jimmychan

Have any comment of Phoenix compared with C2C?


----------



## Pyriel0

Currawong's initial impression did.

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/5795190-post744.html


----------



## Currawong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *lmswjm* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just for clarification, are you referring to the included DIY Cast terminations and your own cable, or the Shark Cast cables? If DIY, which cable are you implementing?_

 

The included "Shark" CAST cables that Audio-gd builds. I'm thinking of DIY'ing some at a later date, but I haven't decided what I'll use. 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ServinginEcuador* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Now that poses a quandry: get it now, but with the printing error, or wait a month to get it with the printing fixed. I think I'll have to flip a coin myself as I'm torn. I really want the amp to get here, but knowing it has the printing errors is nagging at me._

 

If it's any consolation, you wont see the printing error while you use it, unless you put your equipment backwards. Ok, I confess, I think worrying about a panel printing error is a bit silly. If it matters that much, you could order now, and ask it to be shipped with the corrected panels. Kingwa might agree to do that for you. 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jimmychan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Have any comment of Phoenix compared with C2C?_

 

I guess my earlier post was buried. It's significantly better IMO. It doesn't have the more forgiving sound of the C2C, which made my HD-800s sound a bit veiled. Also, Sweet Jane just came into rotation, which had an annoying sibilance issue (long story, see the thread on it) and, while there is still sibilance from the recording, it's only very marginally worse than it is with my Stax rig.

 The sound with the Ref 1 and HD-800s is "just the music thankyouverymuch". I'd probably say the HD-800s impose the most of all the components on the sound at the moment.


----------



## punk_guy182

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ I'd probably say the HD-800s impose the most of all the components on the sound at the moment._

 

That's great news. I read somewhere that the HD800 were quite neutral. That means that the RE1 and Phoenix are very neutral, ''monitor'' like type of sound according to Kingwa.
 Thanks for your impressions Curra and you're always welcome to throw in some more.


----------



## JamesL

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It means that you'd blow the headphone drivers way before you turned it to max volume. I got to about 70 out of 99 and it was so ridiculously loud I had to take it off my head and was worried another one or two notches would damage the drivers, not to mention a minute or two at that volume and I'd permanently damage my hearing. You turn it to 99 and I guarantee you won't have a headphone to listen to. This was with the 300 ohm HD800._

 

Hm.. I figured the power output had more to do than just how loud it gets. Then does this mean a b22 configured for gain of x2 has a smaller output power than a cmoy configured for 11x gain? Perhaps its the maximum power it can output before clipping. 
  Quote:


 Have you seen the rated output for this amp? It's been posted many times in this thread. Show me some other amps that have those ratings. I know because I looked before I purchased the Phoenix and I couldn't find any, when I was interested in a new amp before I even knew about the Phoenix. I wanted an amp with lots of headroom. And I got it.... I don't go more than 50 on the dial, and most of the time listen at 41 – 43. Now keep in mind, this is balanced input with single ended output. When I get my balanced cable tomorrow and I use the balanced outputs, it will be DOUBLE the power. So I imagine my volume then would be between 20 and 30. That's what I call a ton of headroom. 
 

Yes, I found it on audio-gd's site. 
 Theres no need to get so defensive though. I never questioned it's ability to drive inefficient phones. I merely asked what the significance of higher output power was.
 Now that you mention it, b22, m3, and dynahi seem to have a higher output power, though I don't think you'd want to drive any headphones near the clipping levels.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cafe zeenuts* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The Phoenix output power rating for SS amp is one the highest i have seen for a commercial amp. Anyone know what the power output for b22 balanced amp are??_

 

amb.org/audio/b22 - navigate to specifications, it gives specs for +/-30 Vs in a unbalanced configuration.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ServinginEcuador* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Now that poses a quandry: get it now, but with the printing error, or wait a month to get it with the printing fixed. I think I'll have to flip a coin myself as I'm torn. I really want the amp to get here, but knowing it has the printing errors is nagging at me._

 

Get it now, save yourself the money. Who cares about the printing error? You're not looking at it anyway.

 I'm busy tomorrow but if you want to come over on Sunday, I'll be glad to let you have a listen. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The synergy between my DAC, the Phoenix, and the HD800 is just amazing. It has the blackest background I've ever heard. The finesse, the detail, the neutrality....... it's uncanny. The sound stage is so large when the recording calls for it. But this amp won't even sound it's best after an hour of warm-up. It really needs a good 3 hours to get going. On certain tracks I feel it could use just a tad more midrange, but then it wouldn't be neutral.

 I'm contemplating having a small gathering at my apartment the weekend before the meet so people can hear what this amp is really capable of with the HD800. I think the meet might be too noisy to hear all the subtle elements of the music, but I'm going to encourage everyone to do the socializing outside of the meet room.

 Kingwa set the bar quite high with the Phoenix and I'd like to spend some intimate time with other really high-end headphone amps to see where they stand in comparison. Most of all, I'd really like to encourage Kingwa to get a pair of HD800. He will hear the music like he's never heard through headphones before.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *punk_guy182* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's great news. I read somewhere that the HD800 were quite neutral. That means that the RE1 and Phoenix are very neutral, ''monitor'' like type of sound according to Kingwa.
 Thanks for your impressions Curra and you're always welcome to throw in some more. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Except on his main page he says is designed to be "neutral with slightly sweet sound." I'm not sure what that means really. What is slightly sweet sound? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Kingwa, obviously following the thread, just sent me this:

 "Dear Philip,
 Don't need open any holes on the Phoenix.
 Usually , transformers amp need some warm then sound better. So some well know brand gears also is warm or hot. If the gears not enough warm, sound also bad a little. That is what I find.
 And Phoenix is less than 50 C, so don't worry that.
 Kingwa"

 And I concur. The warmer this amp is, the better it sounds. So that answers that. Don't put holes in it.

 Currawong,
 I really urge you to experiment with different digital, analog, and power cables. The tone is very tunable by doing this, and with power cords just opens up a whole other level of dynamics and sound stage. One of my less expensive Cobalt Cable analog interconnects is now being used as my digital coax because it sounds better than any of the other cables I have on hand with this setup.

 JamesL,
 I wasn't getting defensive, honestly. Sorry if it came across that way. You can't compare the gain of other amps to the Phoenix since this amp doesn't have a fixed gain. CAST works differently. The gain is variable. You can read about it on Audio-gd's site. And if the B22 says it has more output power, then it must. This wasn't my experience with it at the meet. I turned it up quite a bit and while it got loud, I had to turn the dial further than I do on the Phoenix to achieve similar volume. I don't know if this necessarily means the B22 doesn't put out as much power, just that the gain works differently on the Phoenix. Most amps have a higher output at lower impedance and lower power as you move up to a higher impedance. The Phoenix is not that way, but rather has a curve to it's power output.

 Here is a post I found from Ti of AMB talking about the B22 and the K1000:
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f6/b22...7/#post3991207

 His amp can put out 18W at 8 ohm. That's a ton for a headphone amp but what headphones are 8 ohm? As the impedance increases the mW ratings fall. I was looking for an amp that put out a lot of power for all impedance ratings, specifically 26, 62, 300 and 600. Of course, impedance is only one factor. The sensitivity of the driver is much more important in determining how loud it will get with a given amount of power.


----------



## DoYouRight

so did you like a b22 or pheonix better for the denons?


----------



## boomana

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DoYouRight* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_so did you like a b22 or pheonix better for the denons?_

 

He doesn't have a beta22.

 Glad you guys are liking the amp. I do hope to hear it one day.

 To the couple of you who went off the deep end with weirdness about conspiracy and CanJam.....What? All vendors paid for tables or rooms, and that's what we listened to. Since there was no Audio-gd table, there were only member rigs present, and none, to my knowledge, had an Audio-gd. Jp11801, the lead organizer, had the Ref 1 in his rig for a bit, but that was the same one that was raffled off. I didn't get to hear it, and being unfamiliar with his rig in general, it would have been difficult to say much of anything about it, only about the whole rig. Kingwa generously donated a surprising amount of goodies, but the winners seemed to have taken their goodies back to their rooms and didn't share. I know some of us tried to listen to agile_one's winning (a compass, I think), but there was a problem with it, and I don't know if it ever got resolved (it was 3 in the morning when I left). If any one in the LA area with an Audio-gd product had wanted us to hear it, he could have brought it to the meet and it would have been heard.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DoYouRight* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_so did you like a b22 or pheonix better for the denons?_

 

I only listened to the B22 with the HD800.

 And no, there was certainly no conspiracy at CanJam. I didn't even want to comment on that because it was just too silly. jp# told everyone at the raffle how the REF-1 was a piece of world-class gear and how Audio-gd was extremely generous with their donations. More people were "oooh"ing and "aaah"ing about the REF-1 than anything else, and it was the biggest and last prize to be auctioned off. The organizers had no hidden agenda to keep Audio-gd products out of CanJam. I know Kingwa is welcomed and encouraged to become a Head-Fi sponsor. His gear is superb and his sponsorship would not only help Head-Fi but help get the word out about his products. We would all love to have an Audio-gd forum here.


----------



## Currawong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Currawong,
 I really urge you to experiment with different digital, analog, and power cables. The tone is very tunable by doing this, and with power cords just opens up a whole other level of dynamics and sound stage._

 

Check my profile for the cables I use now, if you haven't already. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


 Except on his main page he says is designed to be "neutral with slightly sweet sound." I'm not sure what that means really. What is slightly sweet sound? 
 

Not last I looked. He does state that he can change the sound by altering the circuit.


----------



## Mik

Peete and punk_guy: My EMS tracking info updated to this:

 2009/06/27 00:27 VANCOUVER International item arrived in Canada and will be reviewed by Customs

 Still expecting Tuesday/Wednesday delivery. Actually Wednesday is Canada Day, so either Tuesday or Thursday then.


----------



## punk_guy182

Yep. I just saw that too. I'm in Montreal so I expect mine to hit the door step Thursday.


----------



## gjkphd

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *boomana* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_He doesn't have a beta22.

 Glad you guys are liking the amp. I do hope to hear it one day.

 To the couple of you who went off the deep end with weirdness about conspiracy and CanJam.....What? All vendors paid for tables or rooms, and that's what we listened to. Since there was no Audio-gd table, there were only member rigs present, and none, to my knowledge, had an Audio-gd. Jp11801, the lead organizer, had the Ref 1 in his rig for a bit, but that was the same one that was raffled off. I didn't get to hear it, and being unfamiliar with his rig in general, it would have been difficult to say much of anything about it, only about the whole rig. Kingwa generously donated a surprising amount of goodies, but the winners seemed to have taken their goodies back to their rooms and didn't share. I know some of us tried to listen to agile_one's winning (a compass, I think), but there was a problem with it, and I don't know if it ever got resolved (it was 3 in the morning when I left). If any one in the LA area with an Audio-gd product had wanted us to hear it, he could have brought it to the meet and it would have been heard._

 

Oh so you were in on it too, I get it


----------



## ztsen

Hi, few questions for the amp

 1) so the heat not an issue?
 2) if we want a correct label panel will need to wait until end of jul after the promotion? anyone still order and dont mind with the wrong label?
 3) any impression with D5000?
 4) how is the build of the amp? good quality?


----------



## gjkphd

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ztsen* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi, few questions for the amp

 2) if we want a correct label panel will need to wait until end of jul after the promotion? anyone still order and dont mind with the wrong label?_

 

I had the option of an earlier shipment with the mis-labeling or waiting until the end of July. I did choose the later shipment but still got the intro price. Now Kingwa did give me the option of getting a refund and then paying for the amp when it would be ready to be shipped. I didn't bother with that option nor did I ask if the introductory price would still hold in that case.

 BTW, My VAC pre amp is a really nice tube unit and it has no holes at all in the chassis. So this is not unusual.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ztsen* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi, few questions for the amp

 1) so the heat not an issue?
 2) if we want a correct label panel will need to wait until end of jul after the promotion? anyone still order and dont mind with the wrong label?
 3) any impression with D5000?
 4) how is the build of the amp? good quality?_

 

I'm in!

 1) No, not an issue with the PSU on top, that's the one with the Vol Knob. It helps to elevate the PSU a little with some space between the Chassis if you stack them. I think that is bad for the sound however. I think a 24" separtion of the 2 chassis will only yield good things. Although there is no HUM that I can hear stacked.
 2) I think the labels are a debacle, nobody would tolerate this from any Company like Krell, Sony, Denon, etc. Kingwa should have told people about this.
 3) This amp is awesome with the D5000. You haven't heard those phones till you put them on this amp. I have the opportunity to Review the Lawton MD7000 in the next week or so, and it will sound great also I'm sure. I'm still evaluating the sound on this amp, it's unlike anything else I've heard or have. I have nothing bad to say about it so far. Except what I've already mentioned re the tape and labels.
 4) Build quality is typical Kingwa Tank spec, overbuild. Fit and finish is good.

 For Kingwa to ascend to the next level, he needs to up his game just a few ticks. 

 1) Don't send out scratched gear from China. Nobody has the stomach to pay to send it back, myself included. It makes your buyer feel like you are thumbing your nose at him. People make excuses for this, but that is BS.
 2) Paper stickers are Tacky. PERIOD. I've never bought any high end gear in the Past with a Plethora of PAPER stickers and GOO on it. Nuff said. STOP IT.
 3) If you are going to send out something with Typos and Paper input labels on it, you need to disclose that before someone pays $120 for shipping so that they can make an informed decision. Don't let it show up the doorstep and your customer has a What moment.

 If he just fixes a few things, he can own his market. Even with this stuff, it's the SQ and engineering where it's at. I'm not interested in anybody else's gear with the exception of my own Built B22 possibly. Presently with the Phoenix, I am seriously questioning that, and it is being pushed way back on my things to do list.

 The REF1 and the Phoenix, what a Combo this is turning out to be...

 .


----------



## Mudshark

Hi, what about the gain when going SE>SE with the Senn HD800? Does the Phoenix have enough juice to drive the cans?


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gjkphd* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I had the option of an earlier shipment with the mis-labeling or waiting until the end of July. I did choose the later shipment but still got the intro price. Now Kingwa did give me the option of getting a refund and then paying for the amp when it would be ready to be shipped. I didn't bother with that option nor did I ask if the introductory price would still hold in that case.

 BTW, My VAC pre amp is a really nice tube unit and it has no holes at all in the chassis. So this is not unusual._

 

Hey,
 The heat is not an issue in my book if the chassis are arranged right and/or separated. The PSU runs 17 degrees cooler with the PSU on top. I'll bet it drops another degree or two if side by side or separated. That makes it just warm to the touch.

 Comparing Tubes and Solid state is apples and oranges obviously. Most tube amps nowadays do have vents. My DV 337SE has holes around the tube sockets and vents in the Top of the case. The vents run 160-170. Some tubes run 350F. The holes in tube amps is a fairly "recent" thing. I think they must have had problems at some point because they changed over to Heat Sinked resisters. I used to have Quicksilver Mono Blocks, that made the house electric meter spin, and they were Uber Hot as well. Just some random musings on heat.

 But to answer the question, there is not heat issue with this amp. I retract that initial observation, it is good to revisit just so folks don't make the same mistake I did.

 .


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Mudshark* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi, what about the gain when going SE>SE with the Senn HD800? Does the Phoenix have enough juice to drive the cans?_

 

I don't have the 800s, but I think I can say that you would be disappointed SE >> SE. I base this on using it with DT770-80, Couple of Grados, and D5000. I wouldn't be that happy with it. If you merely balanced your cans, it would be fine. Now that I am running balanced all the way thru, the am feels fine driving my stuff. It was anemic when SE >> SE. It would make everything louder than I could stand, but I was in the 80s and 90's with the GS1000s and Beyers. Balanced brings me down to the 30s on the dial. One thing about this amp, it is effortless to make it dangerously loud. Usually distortion stops you in your tracks on the Vol control. Not on this amp. You can keep cranking all the way till something fires! Either your drivers or the hair cells in your ear. But till then, it's beautiful.

 .


----------



## ztsen

Hi gjkphd
 Thanks for the update, i think i will ask for same deal as yours

 Hi les_garten 
 Thanks for the clarification


----------



## haloxt

Ipodpj, I think you got the "neutral with slightly sweet sound" from the description of the sound signature of the dac19SE.

 boomana, I was just saying I thought it was weird nobody posted their impressions of the ref 1 on the forums. I wasn't saying there was a conspiracy, just a little pissed because there was a really disappointing blackout of impressions on the ref 1 thread which I was hoping to see canjammers report on. And if jp# told everyone it was a good piece of equipment etc. it would've been nice if people took the time to listen to it and give even a sentence or two about their impressions on the ref 1 thread even if it was connected to other pieces of equipment. Just reading the ref 1 thread you get the impression that there was a blackout of impressions, not even anything negative or neutral just a blackout. People prior to your post have stated canjammers don't usually bother to give their impressions of sources and mainly just headphones, and that was the proper and civil answer to my question. I'll say it one more time just to make myself clear: I don't think there was a conspiracy and didn't think there was, was just asking in a fancy pants way "Why wasn't there any impressions?" I guess the jazz police will get me whenever I make a little joke here and there, I'll be sure to watch myself and know my place from now on.


----------



## ServinginEcuador

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Actually I think there was a conspiracy._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* 
_boomana, I wasn't saying there was a conspiracy,_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ I'll say it one more time just to make myself clear: I don't think there was a conspiracy and didn't think there was, was just asking in a fancy pants way "Why wasn't there any impressions?"_

 

I'm probably going to regret bringing this up, but which one is it? Is there a conspiracy, or wasn't there? Can't have it both ways as your statements contradict each other.


----------



## haloxt

I thought it was pretty obvious I was joking. Sandchak said it was absurd, then I said maybe it's true which of course is pretty silly.

 I feel pretty dirty having to explain myself like this, believe me, from now on I'll refrain from talking anything other than completely direct.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Mudshark* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi, what about the gain when going SE>SE with the Senn HD800? Does the Phoenix have enough juice to drive the cans?_

 

More than enough. Have no worries about that at all. Of course, it depends on what voltage you are feeding it.

 With this amp the HD800 gets driven to louder levels than both the D5000 and the K702.

 I am listening at lower levels than I've ever listened to before. This amp's transparency will save my hearing.


----------



## DoYouRight

There was a lack of impressions on the unit, but I don't see anything "evil" about it, maybe it sounds so nice they don't bother posting about it anymore!


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_For Kingwa to ascend to the next level, he needs to up his game just a few ticks. 

 1) Don't send out scratched gear from China. Nobody has the stomach to pay to send it back, myself included. It makes your buyer feel like you are thumbing your nose at him. People make excuses for this, but that is BS.
 2) Paper stickers are Tacky. PERIOD. I've never bought any high end gear in the Past with a Plethora of PAPER stickers and GOO on it. Nuff said. STOP IT.
 3) If you are going to send out something with Typos and Paper input labels on it, you need to disclose that before someone pays $120 for shipping so that they can make an informed decision. Don't let it show up the doorstep and your customer has a What moment.

 If he just fixes a few things, he can own his market. Even with this stuff, it's the SQ and engineering where it's at. I'm not interested in anybody else's gear with the exception of my own Built B22 possibly. Presently with the Phoenix, I am seriously questioning that, and it is being pushed way back on my things to do list.

 The REF1 and the Phoenix, what a Combo this is turning out to be...

 ._

 

Well said, Les. I hope he sends me out the new panel on Monday. I did notice how in the spare connector kit that came with the Phoenix he included an Allen Key with it, so that is good. Maybe he knew in advance that I'd want to replace this panel. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I am seriously considering buying a REF-1. I just hope the synergy is as good as it is now. I also need to have RAM work on my Squeezebox and do some custom modding to it, replacing capacitors, clock, etc.


----------



## ServinginEcuador

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I thought it was pretty obvious I was joking. Sandchak said it was absurd, then I said maybe it's true which of course is pretty silly.

 I feel pretty dirty having to explain myself like this, believe me, from now on I'll refrain from talking anything other than completely direct._

 

The internet can sometimes relay a tone that was not intended. Without the use of smileys it's nigh impossible to say exactly what someone meant, and in this case your posts came across a little "troll"-like, and you appeared to be backpeddling to avoid looking like a troll.

 Since it is now clear you were misunderstood my apologies for mistaking your tone. No one cares if you joke around here, my least of all, but the appearance can sometimes take on a life of its own.


----------



## The Monkey

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DoYouRight* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There was a lack of impressions on the unit, but I don't see anything "evil" about it, maybe it sounds so nice they don't bother posting about it anymore!_

 

I have seen several positive reviews from CJ. Nothing earth-shattering, but it's tough to get a good handle on a source under Meet conditions.


----------



## haloxt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DoYouRight* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There was a lack of impressions on the unit, but I don't see anything "evil" about it, maybe it sounds so nice they don't bother posting about it anymore!_

 

It'd be hard to post at this time negative things about the SQ of the Phoenix because it really does have a warm-up period and a long burn-in. If you want to hear me complain, the Phoenix gets really hot and I am reluctant to let it warm-up since I am in a hot region and don't use air conditioning, but that's an evil that I must get used to. Something that could be improved is that the remote only works when directly pointed within the PSU's display or maybe 30 degrees downwards, I will try to block the display and still use the remote so I can listen at night in the dark.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ServinginEcuador* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The internet can sometimes relay a tone that was not intended. Without the use of smileys it's nigh impossible to say exactly what someone meant, and in this case your posts came across a little "troll"-like, and you appeared to be backpeddling to avoid looking like a troll.

 Since it is now clear you were misunderstood my apologies for mistaking your tone. No one cares if you joke around here, my least of all, but the appearance can sometimes take on a life of its own._

 

I wasn't misunderstood, people simply ignored or forgot what I wrote and I had to waste my time repelling criticism. I already responded to Curra that I didn't really think there was a conspiracy, yet some posters afterwards didn't seem to read it. If you want to say I tried to backtrack and start some mini-war over it with me fine, but like the bible says, if your eye offends you, pluck it out, that way less blood will be spilled. It's exactly the same self-defense people have to engage in when they post their subjective impressions when people start yapping about objectivity. In either case both is a waste of time and energy on offense and defense and it just ends with a lot of resentment. If you don't want to believe me when I said I was joking, fine, then think what you want. This place would be a lot better if people were more tolerant though, and I think exercising more care in reading wouldn't be a bad thing.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It'd be hard to post at this time negative things about the SQ of the Phoenix because it really does have a warm-up period and a long burn-in. If you want to hear me complain, the Phoenix gets really hot and I am reluctant to let it warm-up since I am in a hot region and don't use air conditioning, but that's an evil that I must get used to. Something that could be improved is that the remote only works when directly pointed within the PSU's display or maybe 30 degrees downwards, I will try to block the display and still use the remote so I can listen at night in the dark._

 

I forgot to mention that as well. Good thinking, Haloxt. The remote is pretty useless if you're not directly in a line of sight with the unit. Usually IR will bounce off the walls if you angle it properly, but it does not work with this amp. Kingwa should put the IR receiver in the front of the amp above the screen and not behind it, since the screen window is recessed.

 I usually keep my A/C on when I'm listening, however because the HD800 are open phones I miss out on wonderful detail when the A/C unit is running. It would be so nice to have central air. But the unit sounds better when it is hot, and when the power is the least polluted (1 a.m. - 4 a.m.). I'm debating whethere my next purchase will be a REF-1, more upgrades to my DL3 and my SB, or a PS Audio Power Plant Premier. Any suggestions?


----------



## haloxt

Agreed about playing late at night lol, I've only listened late at night maybe 4-5 times but it feels like the sound becomes very clean. I tried asking Kingwa about power conditioners for his equipment and if I read him correctly, I think he said he didn't like the sound of a few chinese brands he's tried (the ones with voltage regulation etc) but that ac filter is okay to use. Dirty power is an issue audio-gd equipment tries to fix so maybe you don't have to worry about upgrading to a better power conditioner since you already have one.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Agreed about playing late at night lol, I've only listened late at night maybe 4-5 times but it feels like the sound becomes very clean. I tried asking Kingwa about power conditioners for his equipment and if I read him correctly, I think he said he didn't like the sound of a few chinese brands he's tried (the ones with voltage regulation etc) but that ac filter is okay to use. Dirty power is an issue audio-gd equipment tries to fix so maybe you don't have to worry about upgrading to a better power conditioner since you already have one._

 

I do not have a power conditioner. The Juice Bar II is nothing more than a very high quality power strip. It uses no wires. The contact plate is a solid piece of metal. I've tried many power conditioners and while they improve many areas, they always seem to suck out goodness in another area. The noise harvester works well because it soaks up line noise and converts it to light, but your equipment is not plugged into it. Kingwa's power cord is very good, and that's why it's connecting the wall outlet to the Juice Bar. But it is not the best plugged into the amp which is why I have my best power cord on it. The hot, return, and ground are all individual, isolated cords.

 A power regenerator is a different animal. It doesn't condition the power, it creates it. It takes the AC from your wall, converts it to DC and then back to AC again:

Power Plant Premier : Additional Product Info | PS Audio


----------



## DoYouRight

How much better are his power supplies than o22? What would I need to try to copy his advanced PSU for my build?


----------



## DoYouRight

wow that regenerator looks insane! I might have to save up for one of those, as in my apartment my power is less than desired.


----------



## tim3320070

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well said, Les. I hope he sends me out the new panel on Monday. I did notice how in the spare connector kit that came with the Phoenix he included an Allen Key with it, so that is good. Maybe he knew in advance that I'd want to replace this panel. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I am seriously considering buying a REF-1. I just hope the synergy is as good as it is now. I also need to have RAM work on my Squeezebox and do some custom modding to it, replacing capacitors, clock, etc._

 

You can have real balanced, full CAST connectivity to the Phoenix. I don't want to spend your money for you but that setup has got to kick a** (it certainly does with my FBI-500 connected this way).


----------



## IPodPJ

I think I should stop giving excited impressions for awhile. Every time I think I have a handle on the situation and think my system is excellent just the way it is, something else comes along and just shatters my previous opinions of it. (No comments from the peanut gallery, please.)

 I received my APuresound V3 HD800 balanced super nylon cable w/ Rhodium Furutech connectors about an hour ago. Now, I'll start off by saying that this time of day is less than ideal for critical listening for two reasons: 1) Power usage is at its highest and audio equipment sounds less than sublime, unless of course you have a power regenerator, and 2) listening critically means I have to turn my A/C unit off and then it gets extremely hot in here, living in southern California, and being uncomfortable is not the frame of mind you want to be in when trying to listen to music. So keep this in mind when reading the following, and know that I will follow it up later tonight when power usage is at its lowest:

 The difference going to a balanced cable from SE (on this amp) is probably the largest difference in tonal balance and a complete, enveloping sensation that I've ever experienced anywhere in my system, at any point in time. It's so dramatic a difference that now I have no clue which direction to go in next.

 Is it Alex's cable that is so good? Is it the amp itself that just puts out an entirely different sound balanced? Or is it both?

 There are elements of SE output (with balanced input) that I actually prefer and I really want to hear what a good SE HD800 cable will sound like on this amp. They are: 1) There is a defined soundstage, and it's further away from you. 2) It doesn't ever sound like the music is coming from transducers on your ears. But SE sounds flat and lifeless IN COMPARISON to balanced output.

 In every other area the balanced cable just shatters SE, but the areas listed above are ones I find extremely important. The balanced configuration offers a much fuller sound, better tonal balance, an encompassing sensation that extends at least 270 degrees around your head, midrange and bass take center stage (whereas before the treble was the most detailed part of the spectrum), better imaging, better dynamics, and a more natural presentation overall. But there is no seemingly well-defined soundstage and because the midrange and bass are so much more present and full-bodied, I can often tell that the music is coming from two transducers on my head, even if it sounds like they are not right next to my ears. Center image is nicely defined and vocals sound as true to life as I've heard them. Treble is soft and extended, every detail can be heard but not strident in any way.

 This is going to take some getting used to and I need to thoroughly compare this fully balanced configuration to other amps at the L.A. Meet. But I'm pretty sure my next purchase will be a power regenerator. I also need to try some different cable configurations and let my amp warm up for another 2 or 3 hours. Also, the balanced output on the amp may need some burn-in time, too.


----------



## tim3320070

Bit the bullet and ordered one, but waiting for the new back plate. Kingwa let me have the $1000 price since I placed it before the 30th. Looks like a C-2C will be for sale soon.
 For those wanting to test clarity and bass extension, download the 24/96 version of Sara K. "Hobo", "Brick House" redo from HDTracks- it sounds incredible.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It's interesting how much this amp has to warm up before the music is at its best. It sounds great cold but not nearly as refined and smooth as it does when it gets heated. When you guys who are owners of the REF-1 said it needs to warm up, I wasn't sure what to make of your impressions but I see now exactly what you meant. Donald North said his tube amp needs at least 30 minutes to warm up. I'd say the Phoenix needs at least an hour._

 

Odd as it may seem for SS that is precisely the finding.....I hadn't really noticed all that much since I have tube amps and a tube pre in the main system that I fire up and let warm up for 45 minutes before hitting play so I was missing out on the warm up period (for the RE1). Drosera made mention of it some months back (the C-2C and Compass have this ...er quirk for lack of a better term ATM except the effect is far far more subtle) in the RE1 thread so naturally I tried it out and that is indeed the way things go with the RE1 and I would imagine other models in the line up.

 Why that is so is open to conjecture but I'm sure Kingwa might have a much more meaningful and logical explanation for it. The amps/dacs etc have a lot of parts and majorly big power supplies (with loads of filtering capacity) so that is the likely place to start. 

 Peete.


----------



## Progenitor

I am heavily tempted to buy one before the 30th. Do you have any recommendation as to what I should ask Kingwa for? I use the HD650 + DX1000 mainly, but I do have an K1000 currently being driven by an Audiovalve RKV MKII.


----------



## IPodPJ

You should ask him to install the on/off display switch. It's a great thing. It's right next to the "Debug" switch and looks identical to it. It isn't in the signal path of any of the audio and will not affect SQ at all. But because I always like to find things out for myself I really tried to see if it would, turning it on and off and on and off while listening.... no difference.

 Also, I don't know what kind of interconnects you are using but his Sharkwire XLR are very nice and his power cord is excellent for the price.


----------



## Progenitor

Thanks for the on/off display switch idea!

 I shamefully still use a pair of monster cable I have bought from the start of my audiophile journey. Unfortunately my source is not balanced (Oritek OMZ) so I don't need XLR yet. However, I will ask him about interconnect + power cable!

 Btw, am I right to say from your comment earlier that the Phoenix is warmer than the SPL Phonitator? I was very impressed with the phonitator when I demoed it around 1 month ago on how it sounds with my DX1000.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cafe zeenuts* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_LD MK6 is rated at 120ohm at 5W.....
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

Is that 5W in total or 2.5 W RMS ? Also that could be the peak unsustained rate and at what percentage distortion ? Likely it would be well above 1% something which is fine for a tube amp but would sound awful on it's SS counterpart.

 I'm not saying the LD Mk VI isn't a good amp all I'm saying is you need to provide the details with the rating otherwise the numbers have considerable leeway of interpretation. 

 At any given time most end users are listening at a power rating between 100 mV and 400 depending on headphone impedance and efficiency so the top power output rating is somewhat misleading. That being said clean headroom is what makes or breaks most high end amps. Delivery and speed of I/V cleanly and effortlessly is what separates the wanna be's from the real deal. 

 Of course my understanding of this is from an amateur perspective but I've been in this game long enough to know that dynamic headroom (a spec at one time that was published and considered very important) is a critical part of the amp equation. If you look at big SS amp specs nowadays..... if it can cleanly double it's power (say 250 RMS in to 8 ohms, 500 W RMS into 4 and 1000W into 2) into half the rated impedance it will have plenty of dynamic headroom on tap. Early NAD amps used to be built to a 3 db headroom spec (which is massive) back in the early days of the UK based operation (which incidently they built there rep on). I'm getting off track here...

 Peete.


----------



## glitch39

PP - it's 5 + 5 watts. Yes, it's powerful. way more than my SP extreme.

 Agreed - it's not purely the RMS wattage that matters. A less powerful amp may sound louder if it's able to deliver the dynamics and headroom demanded by the material. So the power specs is not the end-all of amps, but just a good starting point.

 are you getting your Phoenix next week (hopefully)?


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Mik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Peete and punk_guy: My EMS tracking info updated to this:

 2009/06/27 00:27 VANCOUVER International item arrived in Canada and will be reviewed by Customs

 Still expecting Tuesday/Wednesday delivery. Actually Wednesday is Canada Day, so either Tuesday or Thursday then._

 

Mine still is saying the same as before....hopefully the update will occur on Monday morning.

 Peete.


----------



## les_garten

A guy to ask about the LD MK VI would be Lil Knight. He had one and unloaded it relatively fast. Might want to ask him about why it had to go.

 .


----------



## IPodPJ

Any of my earlier concerns have completely been eliminated. I promised not to sound excited so I won't. I will say that I completely rewired my power cord configuration and will post it later after I nap. (I've been averaging 4 hours sleep per night for the last 2 weeks.) I have the amp plugged directly into the wall as do I with my DAC. All other pieces of equipment are plugged into a different outlet. The holographic image I am getting from this system.... I can see Al Jarreau's face! I can hear the space between Mark Knopfler's fingers and his guitar. I can hear the resonating between the musician and an upright bass. And soundstage? I can tell you the [perceived] distance between the musicians in feet.

 This power cord stuff pays off, big time. The amp and headphones aren't too shabby either.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This is going to take some getting used to and I need to thoroughly compare this fully balanced configuration to other amps at the L.A. Meet. But I'm pretty sure my next purchase will be a power regenerator. I also need to try some different cable configurations and let my amp warm up for another 2 or 3 hours. Also, the balanced output on the amp may need some burn-in time, too._

 

Keep in mind that this amp will have some rather large swings in SQ during burn in...nothing (well, almost) you hear now will be what you hear past 1K hours. The tonality and power will remain constant but SS, texture, et al will change and refine considerably over the next 600 hours +. It's a long haul to fully settled electronics but the journey is fun to 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 IMO of course.

 Jeez PJ I really wish you lived much closer or I lived much closer to you...I would have been happy to bring the CD7/RE1 to your mini meet. Maybe a LA based member will have a RE1 in the near future...not that I'm saying your current source isn't up to the job. 

 PS: Excitement is good for the soul ! If you are an exuberant and positive person than never apologize for it...we already have 300 Andy Rooney's around here it would seem so I find nothing wrong with people expressing joy etc.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *glitch39* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_PP - it's 5 + 5 watts. Yes, it's powerful. way more than my SP extreme.

 Agreed - it's not purely the RMS wattage that matters. A less powerful amp may sound louder if it's able to deliver the dynamics and headroom demanded by the material. So the power specs is not the end-all of amps, but just a good starting point.

 are you getting your Phoenix next week (hopefully)? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Thanks for the update G. Specs in general can be manipulated to the point that most of what is published today (or yesterday for that matter) means very little or tells you not a whit what the unit will sound like. Anyway that's another story........my Phoenix and other stuff is still in the shipping/tracking page black hole according to the tracking numbers but I remain hopeful it shows next week (maybe Wed or Thurs if I'm lucky, which sometimes I am not).

 Peete.


----------



## glitch39

My electrical wiring is similar to iPodJ's new configuration. I use an AC y-cable for my amp and DAC.
 Pro gear has used them for a long time. 

 This reduces possible hum and ground loop issues. Here is an example, albeit ends are for non-US power outlets, but the idea is the same:


----------



## Progenitor

I see that cable has an UK head which is perfect for me. Where did you found this cable?


----------



## IPodPJ

Hi Glitch,

 I wouldn't recommend using something like that. Keep your power cords separated to reduce the amount of interference between the two. They should be well shielded.

 But I've never tried it so I don't know. I do know that regular power cords that look like that sound like poo. I've tried all number of gauges.


----------



## JamesL

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi Glitch,

 I wouldn't recommend using something like that. Keep your power cords separated to reduce the amount of interference between the two. They should be well shielded._

 

You know they're all connected to each other in parallel right behind your outlet, right?


----------



## Lil' Knight

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_A guy to ask about the LD MK VI would be Lil Knight. He had one and unloaded it relatively fast. Might want to ask him about why it had to go.

 ._

 

I was bitten by a Stax bug.


----------



## Currawong

I thought it might be worth commenting that items such as the Phoenix and Ref 1 are best purchased if one is going to use them balanced. Using them SE negates some of the purpose of buying them.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Lil' Knight* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I was bitten by a Stax bug._

 

Hey! Glad you chimed in.

 "Bitten by The Stax Bug"

 As Forest Gump would say, "It Happens"

 .


----------



## haloxt

I thought the Phoenix was just a "pretty good for the price" deal until I removed the diode board in my headphones and balanced it. I think the biggest benefit from balanced is as Ipodpj said, it becomes encompassing, and next biggest changes I'd say it is now more intimate (I NEVER thought that was possible with my pro 900. I suspect removing the diode board may have contributed to this end) and ruthlessly realistic presentation and eerily fast and controlled bass. My headphone and blue dragon cable sucks bad for highs but right now bass has as much transient speed as a very hyperactive violin 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. It's spooky when there's complex low-volume bass background music because it used to just sound like a continuous hum but now has a life of its own. But still, many aspects of my audio chain are probably keeping my Phoenix from sounding as good as what ipodpj describes. I think the Phoenix can be great, but you probably have to choose the rest of your equipment with extreme care. I'm hearing the itty bit of unintimacy of the dac19mk3, the somewhat toy-like sound of my transport, and excessive bass of my headphones+blue dragon cable, these three things are sometimes painfully apparent. Although the Phoenix does contribute an interesting sparkle to the sound (it reminds me of Mr. sparkle from the simpsons) which does help make the shortcomings in my setup quite a bit more bearable, but still I get the feeling I ought to upgrade at least my transport or my optical cable.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I thought the Phoenix was just a "pretty good for the price" deal until I removed the diode board in my headphones and balanced it. I think the biggest benefit from balanced is as Ipodpj said, it becomes encompassing, and next biggest changes I'd say it is now more intimate (I NEVER thought that was possible with my pro 900. I suspect removing the diode board may have contributed to this end) and ruthlessly realistic presentation and eerily fast and controlled bass. My headphone and blue dragon cable sucks bad for highs but right now bass has as much transient speed as a very hyperactive violin 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





. It's spooky when there's complex low-volume bass background music because it used to just sound like a continuous hum but now has a life of its own. But still, many aspects of my audio chain are probably keeping my Phoenix from sounding as good as what ipodpj describes. I think the Phoenix can be great, but you probably have to choose the rest of your equipment with extreme care. I'm hearing the itty bit of unintimacy of the dac19mk3, the somewhat toy-like sound of my transport, and excessive bass of my headphones+blue dragon cable, these three things are sometimes painfully apparent. Although the Phoenix does contribute an interesting sparkle to the sound (it reminds me of Mr. sparkle from the simpsons) which does help make the shortcomings in my setup quite a bit more bearable, but still I get the feeling I ought to upgrade at least my transport or my optical cable._

 

I mentioned what you just said to a friend of mine last night. The funny thing is that I am listening to recordings that I generally regarded as poor when going up the Gear and resolution ladder and they are now sounding really Good. Riddle me that? I'm trying to get my head around how it's doing that. How can it make detail out of poorly engineered cacophony so well?


----------



## glitch39

what's a headphone diode board? Is there literally a diode in series with the drivers?


----------



## haloxt

It's a current overload protection in most Ultrasone headphones, and I guess it's easier to solder the 4 internal headphone wires to a diode board for the manufacturer than to do a more direct contact, but I heard you're going to be deaf before it triggers so who cares 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. In the future, I may get a stereo male connector to finish my xlr-to-1/4'' adapter so I can test if my Pro 900's newfound closeness/intimacy in the sound is from balancing or diode board removal.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JamesL* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You know they're all connected to each other in parallel right behind your outlet, right?_

 

Yes, obviously. And I just mentioned in my previous post that I am no longer using my Juice Bar with my two main components. So it does make a difference, having it plugged directly into the wall (one of my cables was already plugged directly into the wall) and it's not slight.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Lil' Knight* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I was bitten by a Stax bug._

 

Lil' Knight, why don't I see you signed up for the L.A. Meet? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 And I know you'd come if you could, Peete.


----------



## dallan

Hey i thought you were sleeping.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It's a current overload protection in most Ultrasone headphones, and I guess it's easier to solder the 4 internal headphone wires to a diode board for the manufacturer than to do a more direct contact, but I heard you're going to be deaf before it triggers so who cares 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. In the future, I may get a stereo male connector to finish my xlr-to-1/4'' adapter so I can test if my Pro 900's newfound closeness/intimacy in the sound is from balancing or diode board removal._

 

The Denon line has them, too.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dallan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hey i thought you were sleeping.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I was. I'm up now because like most Saturday nights, we go over to my mom's and her hubby's house for family dinner. After I make this post, I'ma gonna' go and get ready! He's a great cook, so it's a nice homecooked meal every week (usually, CanJam interfered and so will the L.A. meet 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) and I usually bring the dessert. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I think I'm going to buy several very high quality wall plates and outlets, something from Oyaide perhaps, rhodium plated, and replace the garbage that's in here now. A good connection to the wall is very important.


----------



## tim3320070

You should change your signature to PowerPJ!


----------



## dallan

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tim3320070* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You should change your signature to PowerPJ!_

 

Here Here!


----------



## IPodPJ

LOL. It's only IpodPJ because that's what I started out with. Believe me, if I could change it I would. I don't want to be known for liking iPods!!! Although, I use an iPod Touch to control my SB and it is very cool.


----------



## Yikes

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Of course my understanding of this is from an amateur perspective but I've been in this game long enough to know that dynamic headroom (a spec at one time that was published and considered very important) is a critical part of the amp equation. If you look at big SS amp specs nowadays..... if it can cleanly double it's power (say 250 RMS in to 8 ohms, 500 W RMS into 4 and 1000W into 2) into half the rated impedance it will have plenty of dynamic headroom on tap. Early NAD amps used to be built to a 3 db headroom spec (which is massive) back in the early days of the UK based operation (which incidently they built there rep on). I'm getting off track here...

 Peete._

 

Peete, Sorry but your description of Dynamic Headroom is incorrect. When an amplifier doubles as the load impedance is halved it means that the amp has exceptional current delivery capability. Some ultra high end amps double down to 1 ohm. So doubling means High Current.

 Dynamic Headroom is an amplifiers ability to put out greater than it's rated power (Rated Power is for Continuous power) for short periods (usually something in the range of 10 - 30 msec). An amplifier that is rated for 200 watts (Continuous into 8 ohms) that for very short duration (Musical peaks) puts out 400 Watts into 8 Ohms would have 3 db of Dynamic Headroom. Another 200 watt amp that for the same peak only manages 300 watts would have a Dynamic Headroom of 1.9 db. 

Definition of the term: Dynamic Headroom

 There are problems with claimed Dynamic Headroom specifications. There is no standard for the measurements. The duration and composition of the peak will dramatically effect the outcome, and unlike Power Output specifications Dynamic Headroom measurements are not covered by the FTC measurement guidelines. So the test methodology is not standardized which makes the claimed Dynamic Headroom numbers all but meaningless.

 There are some interesting design characteristics involved when specifically trying for high Dynamic Headroom abilities. Amps such as Krell's are massively overbuilt and have extremely well regulated power supplies(Isolates them from wall fluctuations), this means that they tend to have fairly low Dynamic Headroom abilities. Whereas amps that are designed to have high Dynamic Headroom have very loosely regulated power supplies (This is what allows them to output higher power for short periods). I find that this dramatically effects the amplifiers bass drive capabilities. Krells are known for their Great Bass control and slam (The results of the massive highly regulated power supply), and NAD is also well known for having a soft almost flabby bass presentation (The results of the loosely regulated power supply)

 I am not an engineer. The last paragraph is information I picked up selling both lines over the last twenty years and the occasional chat with actual EE's. I would welcome clarification or discussion by actual EE's with Audio circuitry design experience. Where's KG when you need him.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Thanks Yikes....I stand corrected !

 Peete.


----------



## grawk

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Any of my earlier concerns have completely been eliminated. I promised not to sound excited so I won't. I will say that I completely rewired my power cord configuration and will post it later after I nap. (I've been averaging 4 hours sleep per night for the last 2 weeks.) I have the amp plugged directly into the wall as do I with my DAC. All other pieces of equipment are plugged into a different outlet. The holographic image I am getting from this system.... I can see Al Jarreau's face! I can hear the space between Mark Knopfler's fingers and his guitar. I can hear the resonating between the musician and an upright bass. And soundstage? I can tell you the [perceived] distance between the musicians in feet.

 This power cord stuff pays off, big time. The amp and headphones aren't too shabby either. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

It's posts like this that give audiophiles a bad name. You're hallucinating.


----------



## DoYouRight

I don't understand this diode issue? Should I remove it from Denons Im getting soon?

 EDIT: Im with Grawk on this one, get some sleep youre going down the rabbit hole.


----------



## n3rdling

I went from being semi interested to being completely disinterested in the product at hand because of some of the most nonsensical posts I've ever seen on this forum taking over this thread; it's a shame.

 Does anybody have more impressions on this unit as a preamp? If so, could you please compare it to other preamps of a similar price league that you have experience with? Thanks mucho.


----------



## Iron_Dreamer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_jp# told everyone at the raffle how the REF-1 was a piece of world-class gear and how Audio-gd was extremely generous with their donations. More people were "oooh"ing and "aaah"ing about the REF-1 than anything else, and it was the biggest and last prize to be auctioned off._

 

Seriously! And there were still people who wanted to listen to it when we had to tear down the rig for the final raffle. JP gave a universally high recommendation of it after listening to it in his home system for a week or so.


----------



## lmswjm

IPodPJ,

 Is there any way you could compare the stock Senn cable with the V3 as SE'd with an adapter, or butcher the stock cord to make it balanced?


----------



## shampoosuicide

What's the difference between Watt and Watt RMS?


----------



## shampoosuicide

PJ,

 I know you've written lots of impressions already, but could you perhaps do a detailed comparison of the Sonett, Phonitor and Phoenix (or at least the Sonett and Phoenix)? I'm sure many of us would be interested, because you spoke so highly of each one at some point.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *lmswjm* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_IPodPJ,

 Is there any way you could compare the stock Senn cable with the V3 as SE'd with an adapter, or butcher the stock cord to make it balanced?_

 

Sorry, I will not butcher the stock cable, but if someone wants to loan me an adapter I will be glad to do that for you.

 For those who think I'm hallucinating, if you actually thought I saw his face then you need to stop taking things so seriously. I could hear the reverberation around his face and image exactly where he was in the soundstage.

 Grawk,
 Get a pair of HD800 on a good balanced rig and then tell me I'm crazy. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 We always talk about being able to hear the location of the musicians on the soundstage and able to hear the notes resonate off the strings and sometimes the instrument itself. This was even discussed in the REF-1 thread. But it has gone beyond that (and I'm sure some have heard this for themselves already) and I'm immersed in a 3-dimensional soundscape. I can hear the notes resonate off the surrounding objects. If you don't believe me, come on over. You're welcome to listen for yourself. Now if you think you will accomplish this with a pair of K702 or D5000, it just isn't going to happen. I know because I have both and while it sounds darn good with them, they are physically incapable of rendering sound that detailed. Nor will this happen without clean power and good cabling on your rig -- it all snapped into place when I rearranged things. Mike1127 (and maybe Donald North) should be coming over tomorrow, and I will ask them to post their impressions here as well.


----------



## Yikes

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *n3rdling* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I went from being semi interested to being completely disinterested in the product at hand because of some of the most nonsensical posts I've ever seen on this forum taking over this thread; it's a shame.

 Does anybody have more impressions on this unit as a preamp? If so, could you please compare it to other preamps of a similar price league that you have experience with? Thanks mucho._

 

 I'm sorry, the only preamp even close to the same price range that I've listened to is my Aragon 24K with IPS Power Supply (about $1250 1990 Dollars). Unfortunately there is no comparison. The Phoenix is better in every single way and not by a small margin. I've been in the high end audio business for 25 years. I go to all of the audio shows, I travel the country visiting dealers. I make it my business to know what's what in audio. I could name multiple preamps that the Phoenix is better than, but that's not what I am going to do. Since you choose to ridicule others for being enthusiastic and believing in things that you don't. I'm using the phoenix with a $2200 power cable, so obviously I'm insane and my opinions don't matter. It's closed minded attitudes like yours that suck the fun and joy out of this hobby.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm sorry, the only preamp even close to the same price range that I've listened to is my Aragon 24K with IPS Power Supply (about $1250 1990 Dollars). Unfortunately there is no comparison. The Phoenix is better in every single way and not by a small margin. I've been in the high end audio business for 25 years. I go to all of the audio shows, I travel the country visiting dealers. I make it my business to know what's what in audio. I could name multiple preamps that the Phoenix is better than, but that's not what I am going to do. Since you choose to ridicule others for being enthusiastic and believing in things that you don't. I'm using the phoenix with a $2200 power cable, so obviously I'm insane and my opinions don't matter. It's closed minded attitudes like yours that suck the fun and joy out of this hobby._

 

Don't worry, Yikes. He will be at the L.A. meet. He will hear it for himself. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'm not sure why people are so harsh and critical of a system they haven't even heard yet. We are dealing with two very new pieces of gear, the HD800 and the Phoenix. The HD800 hasn't been in anyone's system for even a month yet, and the Phoenix less than a week! It's sad that people think it's impossible for a system they haven't heard to do something they don't believe. I thought that of VD power cords years ago, when I was still very new to this hobby and knew nothing of cables and cords. I made fun of them and mocked them and called them scam artists (which they are in a way, but not because of their high-end products) and I wound up looking like a fool in retrospect once I was sent this cord to audition. The lesson I learned: never presume to know how something will sound when you have never heard it for yourself, even if you don't understand A) how it could possibly make a difference, and B) why it works one way in one system and completely different in another.

 I actually put the Audio-gd power cord back on the amp. VD Master LE 2.0 (now selling on closeout for $624, can you believe that?? It was retailing for $2K when I bought it and $4K months prior) is on my DAC. My Locus Axis is on my SB power supply.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *shampoosuicide* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_PJ,

 I know you've written lots of impressions already, but could you perhaps do a detailed comparison of the Sonett, Phonitor and Phoenix (or at least the Sonett and Phoenix)? I'm sure many of us would be interested, because you spoke so highly of each one at some point._

 

I will have the Sonett side-by-side the Phoenix hopefully tomorrow, if not then at the meet. Then I will give those impressions. I had already made a thread with my impressions on the Phonitor in the limited amount of time I had with it (3 or 4 days). The Phoenix is a league or two above the Phonitor. I could only compare the Phonitor (balanced input, SE output) to the same configuration on the Phoenix, and in that area I feel the Phoenix seriously outperforms the Phonitor but since I don't have it here anymore, I can't do a direct comparison. Once using balanced in/balanced out on the Phoenix, you can't even compare because the differences are so vast, namely the holographic sound stage I am getting now that I have never heard in any headphone system ever. With speakers, sure but headphones, no. And since the Phoenix is a dynamic headphone amp, I doubt you will find any dynamic headphones other than the HD800 (and possibly the K1000) that will give you such 3-dimensionality. The K702 and D5000 don't even come close.


----------



## n3rdling

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm sorry, the only preamp even close to the same price range that I've listened to is my Aragon 24K with IPS Power Supply (about $1250 1990 Dollars). Unfortunately there is no comparison. The Phoenix is better in every single way and not by a small margin. I've been in the high end audio business for 25 years. I go to all of the audio shows, I travel the country visiting dealers. I make it my business to know what's what in audio. I could name multiple preamps that the Phoenix is better than, but that's not what I am going to do. Since you choose to ridicule others for being enthusiastic and believing in things that you don't. I'm using the phoenix with a $2200 power cable, so obviously I'm insane and my opinions don't matter. It's closed minded attitudes like yours that suck the fun and joy out of this hobby._

 

Although there have been some power comments in this thread I find hard to believe, it's not what I was referring to since I haven't heard those products. I guess it kinda irks me a bit when every new upgrade/tweak in a system makes a night and day difference to a system that was absolute perfection 5 minutes prior. If you want to call yourself insane that's fine by me, but I had no intention of ridiculing people that believe in power cords. Thanks for your answer to my inquiry.


----------



## sandchak

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *n3rdling* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Although there have been some power comments in this thread I find hard to believe, it's not what I was referring to since I haven't heard those products. I guess it kinda irks me a bit when every new upgrade/tweak in a system makes a night and day difference to a system that was absolute perfection 5 minutes prior. If you want to call yourself insane that's fine by me, but I had no intention of ridiculing people that believe in power cords. Thanks for your answer to my inquiry._

 

True there has been some power comments in this thread (dont know if you have seen the negative comments to start of with), but it is also true that there is a possibility of someone being overwhelmed when he listens to something really good. Also changes like going balanced from SE can make a day night difference, which is why more than often a balanced gear costs twice as much as SE gears.

 Yilkes has been very cautious to start with in his impressions about Phoenix, and the fact that he states he has been in the hi end audio business for the last 25 years at least carries some weight as far as I am concerned. And the fact that IpodPJ has invited guys to come over at the meet and hear the Phoenix means he is quite confident of what he is saying, and finally not forgetting straight talking guys like Les, who will rip anyone apart if the SQ isn't good - to him it sounds beautiful.

 Anyway, as consumers and users we should be happy if Phoenix is really as good as users are projecting it to be. Thats the way I feel - these guys really seem to be happy and honestly I am happy for them.


----------



## grawk

First, I wasn't commenting on power cables, I was commenting on hyperbole. The extreme nature of the comments was more likely a result of sleep deprivation than any actual magic in the setup.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sandchak* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yilkes has been very cautious to start with in his impressions about Phoenix, and the fact that he states he has been in the hi end audio business for the last 25 years at least carries some weight as far as I am concerned._

 

Second, and way more importantly, Yikes works for Siltech, and so has a vested interest in people believing in the magical power of overpriced cables. He shouldn't be commenting on any cabling issues, as a "MOT".


----------



## sandchak

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *grawk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Second, and way more importantly, Yikes works for Siltech, and so has a vested interest in people believing in the magical power of overpriced cables. He shouldn't be commenting on any cabling issues, as a "MOT"._

 

Well, it might be true he works for Siltech, but at least in this thread I haven't seen him trying to pitch in for Siltech or any cables, apart from the fact that he mentioned that uses one which costs a lot. In any case, what you see as vested interests can be seen by me as experience and knowledge in the field, and I am not saying you are wrong - thats my point.


----------



## pompon

A new amp need burn-in.
 If you listening the Sonett brand new ... can be a false impression.


----------



## Yikes

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *grawk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ Second, and way more importantly, Yikes works for Siltech, and so has a vested interest in people believing in the magical power of overpriced cables. He shouldn't be commenting on any cabling issues, as a "MOT"._

 

 So because I am the importer of Siltech I can't even mention that any cables make a difference? I owned expensive cables long before I became the Siltech importer, hell I owned Siltech long before I became its importer. The main reason I pursued Siltech is my belief that it is a quality product. I go to great lengths to not promote my product on this website. My hanging here is for me, not my business. You'll also find that I only mention cables and their impact in passing in no way do I dwell on them, but however I will defend others right to do so.

 Perhaps you should ask Jude why I'm not listed as a MOT


----------



## haloxt

If only this level of hypercriticality can be channeled at private banks eh yikes?


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *shampoosuicide* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What's the difference between Watt and Watt RMS?_

 

Could be none depending on whether the person using the term "Watt" is using it in the proper context.

 Generally speaking, RMS is used to indicate power under AC conditions versus DC conditions.

 If you have 1 volt DC across a 1 ohm resistor, that means you have 1 amp of current flowing through it and the resistor is constantly dissipating 1 watt.

 However if you have an AC voltage across the resistor, such as a sinewave, and the peak voltage is 1 volt, you'll be dissipating 1 watt at that peak, but less than 1 watt at all other points.

 In order to make a more appropriate comparison between DC and AC conditions, the RMS (or Root Mean Square) value of the AC voltage is used for determining power.

 The RMS voltage of a sinewave is 0.707 times the peak voltage. So for a sinewave with a 1 volt peak voltage, its RMS value will be 0.707 volts.

 0.707 volts across 1 ohm means you have 0.707 amps flowing through the resistor and it's dissipating 0.5 watts RMS.

 So even though the sinewave's peak voltage may be 1 volt, the resistor is dissipating the same amount of power as if there were only 0.707 volts DC across it.

 k


----------



## Yikes

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If only this level of hypercriticality can be channeled at private banks eh yikes?_

 

Yes, instead I believe the proposal is to have the Fed (a Private consortium of banks) watch over Wall Street. It is the Foxes Ruling the Hen house.

 Thread Hi-Jack is over


----------



## les_garten

IMO, PSU cable talk will only hurt this thread. It is a polarizing issue. No good will come from it. Also, there will be a large segment that will discount your observations whole cloth when you mention how a $2500 power cable transformed your gear. You may think it's true, you may hear it's true, but it's polarizing. The thread would be better served to be kept "objective" and Uber controversial topics be put in the threads that deal with those products.

 Also, "hyperbole" even though tongue in cheek, will be "piled on" by the "cliques who pile-on" because of the History of Fanboyism that has been attributed to ALL the A-GD threads. Just keep it objective and keep the magic dust out and let the product showcase itself.

 Point out the Pros *AND* the CONS and let the chips fall where they will. 

 .


----------



## grawk

Pointing out potential conflicts of interest and hyperbole is hardly being hypercritical. Other than the complete lack of heat dissipation measures, I'm sure the phoenix is a fine amplifier, and people can do whatever they want with their electron transportation. When someone stands to profit, however, it should at least be mentioned.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *grawk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Pointing out potential conflicts of interest and hyperbole is hardly being hypercritical. Other than the complete lack of heat dissipation measures, I'm sure the phoenix is a fine amplifier, and people can do whatever they want with their electron transportation. When someone stands to profit, however, it should at least be mentioned._

 

You're incorrect here. I shot all the temps with IR thermometer in different arrangements. The heat issue I had was because I had the gear stacked with the biggest heat producer trapped between the shelf and the interface box. When I turned them around the Heat dropped 20 plus degrees and feels warm to the touch now at a little over 100 degrees on the bottom of the case where the Transistors are "Heat-Sinked" to. He uses the entire case as a sink.

 I admitted my mistake here after calling attention to it. It is a concern to anyone who might stack the gear like I did initially. It was pointed out, and the proper orientation was found and the gear temps went way down. If there is a mistake here, it's that there is no manual or instruction set with the gear.


----------



## deathg0d

sorry to interupt but can we just concentrate on the impressions and further impressions of the Phoenix and bring the debate on power cables and cables to another thread please?


----------



## grawk

Other amps have tried the case as a heat sink too. It usually ends badly.


----------



## Yikes

The entire concept of Objectivity when you're talking about peoples personal opinions of how things sound is idiotic. Everyone looks at the universe through their own rose colored glasses. Anyone who believes that they are being truly objective is deluding themselves.

 If anyone believes that I am or have tried to make a profit from my posts here please complain to Jude about it. I have made every effort to avoid any conflict of interests. I occasionally mention Siltech, as in the fact that I import it and use it, but you'll never see me mentioning it's benefits (except for the time I recabled my SA5000's, and if you read that thread I ultimately made every effort to dissuade people from following in my footsteps). You'll also find that I avoid the Cable forum like the plague. I don't think I have ever even posted there, because I AM NOT HERE FOR BUSINESS.

 I am however in the audio business, and because of that I often can get deals on my toys. The fact that I purchased the Phoenix at the same price as everyone else should tell you something about how special the Phoenix actually is.


----------



## iszatso

Somewhere on the audio-gd site, mentions not to stack the gear. Although inconvenient for me not to stack the c-2c and the dac19, figured that interference and heat issues would be addressed by not stacking them. (sorta hijacked thread.)


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *grawk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Other amps have tried the case as a heat sink too. It usually ends badly._

 

Heh, well it's working here because I have one in my hands. You don't It works on the Compass as well. If you have IR thermometer shots to show it doesn't work, post them. I posted mine to show it does work if oriented properly.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *grawk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Pointing out potential conflicts of interest and hyperbole is hardly being hypercritical. Other than the complete lack of heat dissipation measures, I'm sure the phoenix is a fine amplifier, and people can do whatever they want with their electron transportation. When someone stands to profit, however, it should at least be mentioned._

 

There are way too many accusations of all flavors being thrown around this site so casually these days. Enough is enough.


 Also, why would holophonic sound be so absurd coming from my system when people mention it coming from their K1000 system? These two headphones are the soundstage champs, and if you haven't heard an HD800 yet on a very good, balanced rig I strongly suggest you do. And hey, I'm not tired now, I slept. It's still holophonic. I guess I'm nuts then.


----------



## grawk

I have.


 And calling your post hyperbole isn't an accusation, it's an observation.


----------



## squall343

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *grawk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Other amps have tried the case as a heat sink too. It usually ends badly._

 

from what i know, Audio-Gd have been using their case as heat sink for a few years already


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The fact that I purchased the Phoenix at the same price as everyone else should tell you something about how special the Phoenix actually is._

 

The Phoenix and the HD800 are the biggest headphone hi-fi bargains (to me) that I've ever spent my money on.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The entire concept of Objectivity when you're talking about peoples personal opinions of how things sound is idiotic. Everyone looks at the universe through their own rose colored glasses. Anyone who believes that they are being truly objective is deluding themselves.

 If anyone believes that I am or have tried to make a profit from my posts here please complain to Jude about it. I have made every effort to avoid any conflict of interests. I occasionally mention Siltech, as in the fact that I import it and use it, but you'll never see me mentioning it's benefits (except for the time I recabled my SA5000's, and if you read that thread I ultimately made every effort to dissuade people from following in my footsteps). You'll also find that I avoid the Cable forum like the plague. I don't think I have ever even posted there, because I AM NOT HERE FOR BUSINESS.

 I am however in the audio business, and because of that I often can get deals on my toys. The fact that I purchased the Phoenix at the same price as everyone else should tell you something about how special the Phoenix actually is._

 

I agree that it is difficult/impossible to make this objective. It's sort of like being a sinner, we're all sinners, that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to be better.

 To evaluate how an amp sounds, "I" try to level the field and minimize the variables as much as possible. For instance only swap out the amps that I am A/B'ing. You are correct, SQ is subjective. It seems pound foolish to me, to bring cables that cost 2.5x the amp into this equation. You are bound to draw a heat seaking missile from somebody. Then what does that accomplish? That constitutes an agenda in itself if you don't recognize how this works. Assess the amp. Talk about Cable stuff in the cable forum. People will listen to this amp with what they have. Don't make this an HD800 thread or a Cable fetish thread.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *grawk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have.


 And calling your post hyperbole isn't an accusation, it's an observation._

 

And was the source NOS? Every experience I've had with non-oversampling and non-upsampling DACs the music sounds flat and lifeless. My RAM DL3 is upsampling to 192khz. At 96khz, the spatial information is taken down a notch. That's one of the reasons why Wadia upsamples to the same sample rate as DSD, which is 2.84.... million Hz. Analog has no sample rate, so the more points you put along the curve and the better the algorithm is at recreating the original curve, the closer it will be to the original waveform. The higher the sample rate, the more spatial information reaches your ears.


----------



## The Monkey

Has anyone popped the hood on their Phoenix yet? Interior pics would be interesting.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *The Monkey* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Has anyone popped the hood on their Phoenix yet? Interior pics would be interesting._

 

ÐÂ½¨ÍøÒ³ 1


----------



## The Monkey

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ÐÂ½¨ÍøÒ³ 1_

 

I know where to find the Company's pictures. I'm interested if anyone has popped the hood on their own Phoenix.


----------



## Yikes

Is there hyperbole here, absolutely. I think that I cautioned about it much earlier in the thread. I also don't believe that anyone is falling prey to it.

 I admit that I found Ipod's early excessive enthusiasm annoying, but I have since come to look upon his musings like he's an excited puppy (No offense Ipod). Everyone knows he's excited about his new toy. I don't believe his hyperbole is deceiving anyone. He loves his new toy (As do I) why kick the excited puppy, it's just mean.

 As far as my mentioning my expensive power cable, I made no claim as to it's effect on the sound of the Phoenix. I mentioned it in defense of someone Else's right to bring cables into the discussion. I mean are they not part of the system?


----------



## XXII

Is there any reason why Audio-gd stuff seem to have huge power consumption: 48W for the Phoenix, the ref-1 is supposed to be 150W(!). Is this because of CAST?


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *The Monkey* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I know where to find the Company's pictures. I'm interested if anyone has popped the hood on their own Phoenix._

 

I would assume they look the same.


----------



## XXII

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I would assume they look the same. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

It's probably a bit sinister to suggest this but given that the back panel of the amp is different to the pictures on the Audio-gd website, it's not too far of a stretch to suggest that there might be some differences internally...


----------



## Yikes

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I would assume they look the same. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 


 Because of Audio-gd's very good picturs on their web site I have not bothered popping the hood.

 Still: Assume ASS out of U and ME


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The Phoenix and the HD800 are the biggest headphone hi-fi bargains ever. All someone has to do is spend some time with both and they will quickly realize this._

 

While I appreciate anyone giving useful info about this product, you're not helping here. I do call this Hyperbole and rhetoric. You're not helping your cause when you use these terms.

 Here's a few points/facts

 >>Some people don't like the HD800
 >>Some were sold off immediately after purchase
 >>Some reputable reviewers have panned them
 >>People become skeptical when "absolute" phrases are used, such as "The Biggest No Brainer in the History of the Earth" Not you, another review. But similar to what you are saying. This *is hyperbole* and you are inviting gratuitous attack with it. Please stop.
 >> AND your non-delivery of the last "Hyperbole" you promised, the Denon pad mods that were supposed to make the D5000s the best canz in the Universe. People are laying and waiting on you for that *Hyperbole*. As evidenced today. And today you spend time "bagging" the D5000s that you promised last month was the Ultimate Can??

 Don't make this a pissing/hyperbole/rhetoric/HD800/Cable thread. If you believe in the Phoenix as you say you do, you'll throttle back and take a breather. Read a few objective reviews of Road&Track and Car&Driver from the 60's or early 70's to see how to do a review/critique.

 I like this gear "so far" but YOU are killing it.

 .


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *The Monkey* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I know where to find the Company's pictures. I'm interested if anyone has popped the hood on their own Phoenix._

 

Dude, you don't think I didn't open the box right after getting it!!!

 I would never fire up a piece of gear from China without checking out whether something was screwed up at the factory, or dislodged in shipping. Both of which has happened with A-GD gear as well as other companies. 

 I can shoot some PIX this week if you HAVE to see them. Mine will look just like the website, except be better resolution. Ohhh and the back panel is not the one I thought I was buying...

 .


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *XXII* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is there any reason why Audio-gd stuff seem to have huge power consumption: 48W for the Phoenix, the ref-1 is supposed to be 150W(!). Is this because of CAST?_

 

Class A regulated circuits produce Heat, heat is consumption. Consumption results in Watt usage. Class Regulated designs are not fuel efficient.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Because of Audio-gd's very good picturs on their web site I have not bothered popping the hood.

 Still: Assume ASS out of U and ME_

 

When they send me the replacement side panel I will have to open it up, so maybe then I can take some pics with my cell phone.


----------



## haloxt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *The Monkey* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I know where to find the Company's pictures. I'm interested if anyone has popped the hood on their own Phoenix._

 

I did open them because I was looking for why my Phoenix wasn't working (turned out to be broken pins 6+7 on data cable fyi). I didn't notice anything out of the ordinary seemed quite similar to the audio-gd pics but I guess someone else should take pictures because I don't have a camera just a decade old video camera.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I did open them because I was looking for why my Phoenix wasn't working (turned out to be broken pins 6+7 on data cable fyi). I didn't notice anything out of the ordinary seemed quite similar to the audio-gd pics but I guess someone else should take pictures because I don't have a camera just a decade old video camera._

 

I know you repaired your cable but he should send you a new one. Is he going to?


----------



## haloxt

He said he would send me one if I didn't have any but I didn't ask for it because I could resolder or buy a new one for a few bucks. Plus I think I must've broken it hehe.

 Ever since I got the dac19mk3 I have been listening too loud, after balancing my habit is even worse, music is too omnipresent and sustained now for high volume listening. I lowered my listening volume from ~18/99 to ~13/99 hehe hope I stop getting that stuffy feeling in my ears now.


----------



## The Monkey

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Dude, you don't think I didn't open the box right after getting it!!!

 I would never fire up a piece of gear from China without checking out whether something was screwed up at the factory, or dislodged in shipping. Both of which has happened with A-GD gear as well as other companies. 

 I can shoot some PIX this week if you HAVE to see them. Mine will look just like the website, except be better resolution. Ohhh and the back panel is not the one I thought I was buying...

 ._

 

Thanks Les. That's exactly why I was asking. Despite what appears to be tank-like build quality, there also seem to be some relatively minor QC issues. But I'm glad to hear that the guts are consistent with your expectations. If you say the internals are the same as the pics already on the site, I don't doubt you, but I think posting pics would be kind of cool, simply because it's nice to have the higher resolution. 

 What was the situation with the back panel?


----------



## haloxt

I think we need to do a FAQ for this thread too so there's less repetitive questions lol.

 RCA-out labels became PCA, and input numbers 4 and 5 were switched around by using white stickers (pretty well done though imo, it keeps the back panel from being perfect but is not that intrusive).

 As for QC, I poked around both boxes for about half an hour trying to see if anything was loose but all seemed fine.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

I'll post some internal shots when mine arrives.

 Peete.


----------



## The Monkey

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_RCA-out labels became PCA, and input numbers 4 and 5 were switched around by using white stickers (pretty well done though imo, it keeps the back panel from being perfect but is not that intrusive)._

 

They look ridiculous, to me at least, in the pictures. More importantly, while the error is not "intrusive," it is unacceptable. However, it appears that audio-gd understands this. But when you see something like that, it's important to confirm that something similar wasn't done inside.


----------



## The Monkey

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'll post some internal shots when mine arrives.

 Peete._

 

Thanks Peete.


----------



## haloxt

I think the backpanel design is the nicest that audio-gd has done, benefited a lot from what csroc and others contributed to the compass design.


----------



## NiToNi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Any of my earlier concerns have completely been eliminated. I promised not to sound excited so I won't. I will say that I completely rewired my power cord configuration and will post it later after I nap. (I've been averaging 4 hours sleep per night for the last 2 weeks.) I have the amp plugged directly into the wall as do I with my DAC. All other pieces of equipment are plugged into a different outlet. The holographic image I am getting from this system.... I can see Al Jarreau's face! I can hear the space between Mark Knopfler's fingers and his guitar. I can hear the resonating between the musician and an upright bass. And soundstage? I can tell you the [perceived] distance between the musicians in feet._

 

Is IPodPJ and Patrick82 the same person??


----------



## akg702

Hi

 Will those of you that brought the Phoenix recommend me to get it over the Woo 6SE?

 I have the akg 702 now and getting the Denon ah 7000 and later maybe the sen HD800 when the price drop a bit.

 I will be using the phoenix for SE till I get the Sen800 before I go balance it. How is the Phoenix SE out without balance compares to the Woo or other amp SQ. 

 How and what are the process to order the Phoenix? It the Audio-gd exclusive power cable USD75 any good for the Phoenix. 

 Thanks again
 Fin


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *The Monkey* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_They look ridiculous, to me at least, in the pictures. More importantly, while the error is not "intrusive," it is unacceptable. However, it appears that audio-gd understands this. But when you see something like that, it's important to confirm that something similar wasn't done inside._

 

Agreed but this will be fixed as was discussed earlier in the thread (did you miss it ?). I'm just glad it's a minor cosmetic error and something that can be easily fixed. If this really bothers people then wait for the fixed up version. Pretty simple. I have to admit I'm somewhat mystified by the myopic fixation on the unimportant (in the current scheme of things of course)....anywho...

 Peete.


----------



## Duggeh

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *NiToNi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is IPodPJ and Patrick82 the same person??_

 


 Win.


----------



## Currawong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DoYouRight* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How much better are his power supplies than o22? What would I need to try to copy his advanced PSU for my build?_

 

Audio-gd has something similar to the sigma 22 on their site.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_While I appreciate anyone giving useful info about this product, you're not helping here. I do call this Hyperbole and rhetoric. You're not helping your cause when you use these terms.

 Here's a few points/facts

 >>Some people don't like the HD800
 >>Some were sold off immediately after purchase
 >>Some reputable reviewers have panned them
 >>People become skeptical when "absolute" phrases are used, such as "The Biggest No Brainer in the History of the Earth" Not you, another review. But similar to what you are saying. This *is hyperbole* and you are inviting gratuitous attack with it. Please stop.

 [...]

 Don't make this a pissing/hyperbole/rhetoric/HD800/Cable thread. If you believe in the Phoenix as you say you do, you'll throttle back and take a breather. Read a few objective reviews of Road&Track and Car&Driver from the 60's or early 70's to see how to do a review/critique.

 I like this gear "so far" but YOU are killing it.

 ._

 

x2 all of that. The HD-800s have been a mixxed blessing for me. Though I'll accept that it is subjective somewhat, I still feel that my cheaper overall Stax rig is the best (even if I had bought and wasn't borrowing the Stax amp). However, the HD-800s have the best soundstage of anything I've heard so far though, so it's hard not to pick them up first.

 Ok, back on topic.

 I had a quick go of SE vs. balanced with the HD-800s and there seemed to be a big change balanced. However, the volume is definitely higher balanced, so that makes it hard to give accurate impressions. Individual instruments seem to stand out much more balanced.

 I didn't pop the top of my Phoenix on arrival, but I'll do so and take some 10mp photos soonish.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *The Monkey* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_They look ridiculous, to me at least, in the pictures. More importantly, while the error is not "intrusive," it is unacceptable. However, it appears that audio-gd understands this. But when you see something like that, it's important to confirm that something similar wasn't done inside._

 

Hi,
 Here again are my thoughts on this. The people who say it's OK are rationalizing Kingwa *DUMPING* his Frackin back plates on us. Pure and simple. He screwed up and *DUMPED* them. Sure, it's on the back, you won't see it everyday, but you will have to explain it if you sell it. 

 Here's my test for this. If you bought it this way from Tweeter, or Best Buy, or Sound by Singer, would you take it back for an exchange? I can't imagine anybody not taking it back! He misspelled XLR on the back of the REF1 for God'd sake. He needs to tighten his game up. Why aren't *we* taking them back, because dealing with a Chinese company is sometimes a PITA because of shipping price and distance. That's why Kingwa shouldn't be *DUMPING* crap like this on his customers. He gets a bad reputation for doing this. This was 100% preventable.

 It ain't like he didn't know what was going out the door here. To a man everyone Should tell him they are pissed about this. Otherwise he gets a pass on it. He didn't disclose this crap to anyone. This keeps taking me back to when he posted that these UNITs were TEST units for sale on the webpage. Coincidence? Or did he get his back plates in that day?


----------



## DoYouRight

yea that is a small issue that he really should have fixed before shipment. any google search could tell you its xlr and not xrl


----------



## Pricklely Peete

You wouldn't be getting this amp from Singer or Tweeter for anywhere near 1k and for the umpteenth time I agree the cosmetic issues should not have been allowed out the door. We have *all* said it isn't acceptable Les. That water has passed under the bridge so further discussion is not very helpful to those of us that want to hear about SQ. There are 5 people in the world with this amp.......the lettering even though it's unacceptable is somewhat on the back burner (for now) considering the main reason we all want this thing is for SQ and not looks...anywho...

 I think Kingwa get's it loud and clear. So how about some more impressions on SQ, please ?.

 Peete.


----------



## tim3320070

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You wouldn't be getting this amp from Singer or Tweeter for anywhere near 1k and for the umpteenth time I agree the cosmetic issues should not have been allowed out the door. We have *all* said it isn't acceptable Les. That water has passed under the bridge so further discussion is not very helpful to those of us that want to hear about SQ. There are 5 people in the world with this amp.......the lettering even though it's unacceptable is somewhat on the back burner (for now) considering the main reason we all want this thing is for SQ and not looks...anywho...

 I think Kingwa get's it loud and clear. So how about some more impressions on SQ, please ?.

 Peete._

 

Absotively!


----------



## XXII

.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You wouldn't be getting this amp from Singer or Tweeter for anywhere near 1k and for the umpteenth time I agree the cosmetic issues should not have been allowed out the door. We have *all* said it isn't acceptable Les. That water has passed under the bridge so further discussion is not very helpful to those of us that want to hear about SQ. There are 5 people in the world with this amp.......the lettering even though it's unacceptable is somewhat on the back burner (for now) considering the main reason we all want this thing is for SQ and not looks...anywho...

 I think Kingwa get's it loud and clear. So how about some more impressions on SQ, please ?.

 Peete._

 

First you say it's unacceptable than later you say it's about the SQ and not the looks. I responded because yet another Poster talked about the Typos not mattering. They do matter, and it's disingenuous of Kingwa to send it out. This is all rationalization of Kingwa's DUMPING and there is no defense here. Saying it's about the SQ and not the looks is a rationalization of mediocre QC. 

 I ordered the amp on the website, the one with RCA spelled correctly and all the inputs labeled Correctly. Why did I post the rant, because another post was placed about how the Typo's/Stickers were not a big deal. He put out the Orig C-2C as a Piece of DIY looking gear. The Original Compass had numerous goofs on it front and back, the REF1 has XRL spelled on the back. And now the Phoenix. I say raise hell about this and embarrass the hell of out them for shoddy QC. That's the point. This is a just one more typo in a trend of TYPOs skewed Jacks, holes punched over running silk screening, etc. If he don't want a harang about this, he needs to fix his QC, and quit using sharpies to fix manufacturing defects. Covering up vacant holes with paper tape like on the REF1.

 If you get served swill for Dinner and don't complain about it, be prepared to eat swill forever.

 .


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Holy Cow Les.....that's not what I meant at all....

 Peete.


----------



## D_4_Dog

Just got an email from cherry. Guess all the complaints finally reached their ears because she emailed me just now and asked whether I minded the lettering problem and if i did i'll get my amp at the end of july instead. Also, there appears to be a black as well as a silver version. I opted for the black... don't want to take more chances


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *D_4_Dog* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just got an email from cherry. Guess all the complaints finally reached their ears because she emailed me just now and asked whether I minded the lettering problem and if i did i'll get my amp at the end of july instead. Also, there appears to be a black as well as a silver version. I opted for the black... don't want to take more chances _

 

Thanx for that. He reads this thread, I know that for a fact. Hopefully he gets the message. I like his gear.

 .


----------



## Yikes

Just imagine how people would have thrown a major fit if Kingwa had not sent the initial batch out in time for some opinions to be posted before the Promotional discount expired. So if they delayed shipping until the rear panel was corrected he would have been crucified, and since he sent them out with the errors he's being crucified. He couldn't win for loosing.


 I don't think the errors are the issue, the issue is what Kingwa does for the people who are so anal that they can't live with the errors. For those who are so upset about the rear panel he should pay for transportation and fixing the back panel. Would I like the rear panel replaced, sure, but I don't want to be without the amp for the three weeks that the repair is likely to take. Since the amp appears to be functioning perfectly and the rear panel issues are strictly cosmetic and not visible during normal use I'm not that concerned with them.


 My Phoenix now has been powered up and playing music non stop for 104 hours. It's working and sounding fantastic. So far I am extremely happy with my purchase, and I don't see any reason why my feelings would change.


----------



## The Monkey

I agree with Les. Peete, while some may view the back panel errors as merely cosmetic, I think they show a lack of attention to detail that is disconcerting to a potential purchaser. That's not being myopic, it's simple common sense.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

BTW I agree with you Monkey, but Yikes has a solid point as well....how many times do I need to say that the amps need to be 100% correct before shipment ? Anything else as I have said 4 times now is not acceptable.

 Do we now have an understanding ?

 Peete.


----------



## akg702

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *D_4_Dog* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just got an email from cherry. Guess all the complaints finally reached their ears because she emailed me just now and asked whether I minded the lettering problem and if i did i'll get my amp at the end of july instead. Also, there appears to be a black as well as a silver version. I opted for the black... don't want to take more chances _

 

Silver is nice, Do they have a pic of the Silver Phoenix?

 I will order the Phoenix tonight or tomorrow before the discount end.... I don't mind waiting to get the lettering fix. There is no excuses to continue shipping out the wrong lettering. 

 I think those that got the wrong lettering should get a discount or replacement at least. 

 Now I wonder which to get Silver or Black? , Photoshop to Silver.


----------



## Yikes

I don't really see the issue. Kingwa is letting people order units at the promotional price, to be shipped after the cosmetic issues are resolved.

 If you trust that the issues will be corrected go ahead and order one. If you doubt it don't. It's not brain surgery.

 Did anyone seriously think that buying an amp from China would be totally pain free. Frankly I'm amazed at how little pain there's been.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Flip a coin....

 Peete.


----------



## The Monkey

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_BTW I agree with you Monkey, but Yikes has a solid point as well....how many times do I need to say that the amps need to be 100% correct before shipment ? Anything else as I have said 4 times now is not acceptable.

 Do we now have an understanding ?

 Peete._

 

Maybe if you say it one more time. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Moving on, I think Audio-gd should consider extending the introductory price period by another month.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

That's it now your trolling....what you don't get paid until the end of next month or something ? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Peete.


----------



## The Monkey

Heh, something like that. The paypal slush fund needs time to heal.


----------



## boomana

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *The Monkey* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Maybe if you say it one more time. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Moving on, I think Audio-gd should consider extending the introductory price period by another month._

 

X2. Recent headphone purchases and CanJam extravagances have me on empty, and if I sell my HD800s to fund this amp (which is what I'd have to do this month), I'll never know what ipodpj's been smoking or not.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *The Monkey* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I agree with Les. Peete, while some may view the back panel errors as merely cosmetic, I think they show a lack of attention to detail that is disconcerting to a potential purchaser. That's not being myopic, it's simple common sense._

 

Agreed, and it was the first thing I mentioned before I even heard the amp. It shows lack of care for customer satisfaction and makes him look like a DIY company.

 The other side of the coin is that he is prepared to fix some of these problems if you want him to and make good on it. Also, the price of this amp is ridiculously low for what it does and how it sounds, compared to the rest of what's out there. So if that means some bad lettering (which again, should never have happened), I'd gladly choose that and pay the price I paid for this amp. Even Donald North, a tube amp designer (who came over tonight with his balanced Sonett, so I could spend more time with it) has no idea how he is building this and selling it so inexpensively, and he knows what aluminum costs. He also thought my system sounded fantastic.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *boomana* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_X2. Recent headphone purchases and CanJam extravagances have me on empty, and if I sell my HD800s to fund this amp (which is what I'd have to do this month), I'll never know what ipodpj's been smoking or not._

 

Do you always have to make some kind of nasty comment to me? You've got nothing better to do with your time? Frankly, I'm getting sick of it. If you don't like my posts or my enthusiasm, put me on ignore, but don't be so immature. I've been busting my ass for many hours each day trying to coordinate, put together, and respond to many PMs for this big L.A. meet so that people will have a chance to listen to lots of great gear. If you're so interested in how this amp sounds, come hear it for yourself but cut out the rudeness. I've never done or said anything bad to you.


----------



## Pale Rider

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ VD Master LE 2.0 (now selling on closeout for $624, can you believe that?? It was retailing for $2K when I bought it and $4K months prior) is on my DAC. My Locus Axis is on my SB power supply._

 

PJ, where is the VD available at that price? I took a quick look and came up blank. Cheers!


----------



## boomana

Wasn't intended to be nasty, but more tongue-in-cheek. Even you have to admit that you've been waxing poetic. Feel free to dip into the HF2 thread and call me out on same.


----------



## The Monkey

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *akg702* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 Now I wonder which to get Silver or Black? , Photoshop to Silver._

 

Thanks for the photoshop job. I wonder how it would look in a Luxman-style champagne color. If it were a one box setup, it could be nice. Two boxes might be a bit much. akg702, would you be able to cook up an image with that color?


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *boomana* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wasn't intended to be nasty, but more tongue-in-cheek. Even you have to admit that you've been waxing poetic. Feel free to dip into the HF2 thread and call me out on same._

 

Yes, I have. And when you hear the amp with the HD800 you will feel the same.

 I liked the HF2 for a Grado headphone. In fact I think it is the best sounding Grado I've heard, including the GS1000 and PS1000. But I don't like Grados so I wouldn't be posting in that thread.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pale Rider* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_PJ, where is the VD available at that price? I took a quick look and came up blank. Cheers!_

 

I don't advocate you supporting the company, but the truth is the truth... they make some of the world's best power cords. And for this price, it's a steal:

Virtual Dynamics - Audiophile Audio Cable


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Oh Les I forgot to ask earlier did you get your Lemo CAST cables finished yet ?

 Peete.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *The Monkey* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks for the photoshop job. I wonder how it would look in a Luxman-style champagne color. If it were a one box setup, it could be nice. Two boxes might be a bit much. akg702, would you be able to cook up an image with that color?_

 

I remember he was originally going to offer it in silver but he said he couldn't get it made. It's a shame, too, because many of us would have ordered it in silver. I probably would have. But then if I eventually get the REF-1, it's a good thing the Phoenix is black.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't advocate you supporting the company, but the truth is the truth... they make some of the world's best power cords. And for this price, it's a steal:

Virtual Dynamics - Audiophile Audio Cable_

 

Have you ever tried the Kimber Palladian PK10 /PK14 PJ ? I've heard it's a really fine piece of work but I have to admit way too dear for my wallet. Sorry for the OT post.

 Peete.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Have you ever tried the Kimber Palladian PK10 /PK14 PJ ? I've heard it's a really fine piece of work but I have to admit way too dear for my wallet. Sorry for the OT post.

 Peete._

 

I have tried Kimber but that one doesn't ring a bell. I'm always willing to audition power cords that someone wants to send my way, and now XLR cables too.

 Edit: I just looked at the picture of it. Nope, definitely haven't tried that one. Looks nice though, but looks don't mean a damn thing.

 Edit: But I guess I'll have a chance now to audition a Cardas Golden Reference power cord, since Mike1127 left it here.


----------



## Currawong

I think it's a cultural thing. Maybe his Chinese customers don't care about oddball labelling, but then, they don't have the kind of incomes us Westerners do where we can afford gear that half the cost goes into making the case and packaging perfect. 

 I was just thinking the other day what it might cost for a Ref 1 (or Phoenix for that matter) with the kind of case you see on AMB, Headamp, RSA or similar gear, plus the proper Lemo connectors, laser engraving and big heatsinks, as well as custom made packaging include the item name and picture. Something like double the price?

 What might have been more sensible is if Kingwa said from the beginning that he was offering mis-labelled versions with a hand-made data cord for a discount. It would have come to the same thing, but without the misunderstandings.


----------



## akg702

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have tried Kimber but that one doesn't ring a bell. I'm always willing to audition power cords that someone wants to send my way, and now XLR cables too.

 Edit: I just looked at the picture of it. Nope, definitely haven't tried that one. Looks nice though, but looks don't mean a damn thing._

 

Hi IPodPJ

 Thanks for your updates on the Phoenix all this time,
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'm in the process of ordering the phoenix. I'm new to this hobby, I only have one headphone AKG 702 now but planning to get the AH7000 next and then the Senn 800. I basically starting from nothing. what other cables I need to get for the phoenix? Any advice will be great. 

 Do you think the Audio-gd exclusive power cable ：USD75 any good with the Phoenix? 

 Thanks again


----------



## boomana

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes, I have. And when you hear the amp with the HD800 you will feel the same._

 

good deal.

  Quote:


 I liked the HF2 for a Grado headphone. In fact I think it is the best sounding Grado I've heard, including the GS1000 and PS1000. But I don't like Grados so I wouldn't be posting in that thread. 
 

Sometimes a counter-perspective is helpful, especially to those on the fence, but thinking about buying.

 Since you added to your earlier post, I'm just going to say that I'm glad you're organizing this meet. My introduction to headphone listening as a hobby, rather than just sitting home listening to music (I thought I was the only headphone weirdo around) was through meets. I really value the experiences I've had with different gear, being able to make comparisons, develop my own tastes, temper expectations with reality, etc. and on, as well as meet many wonderful people I now call friends. I wish more people were willing to organize or get themselves to meets.

 Then again, most people can't get to meets, so I'm a bit of a bitch when it comes to reading posted impressions. People are looking for those with experience with the gear in question to help them make decisions. I'm all for enthusiasm, but pure emotional posting ends up a big mess for most of us readers, not being able to decipher hype from information. Enthusiasm tempered by reason is more helpful. That's all.


----------



## XXII

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think it's a cultural thing. Maybe his Chinese customers don't care about oddball labelling, but then, they don't have the kind of incomes us Westerners do where we can afford gear that half the cost goes into making the case and packaging perfect._

 

To blame Kingwa's failings on the culture of his Chinese customers is very wrong IMO. Clearly, the cultural differences fall squarely on Kingwa's shoulders. Unlike, western counterparts, he doesn't pay enough attention to the details.


----------



## IPodPJ

Yes, the Audio-gd exclusive cable is great with the Phoenix. In fact, it's what I'm using now. And it's what Kingwa used to design it. Make sure you plug it directly into the wall though -- no power strips, conditioners, etc., but a power regenerator would be okay.

 My advice, skip the D7000 and just save for the HD800. You know you will be getting the HD800, so just wait for that one. But don't count on the price dropping, unless they come out with a better model which would be a long ways out.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *boomana* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Then again, most people can't get to meets, so I'm a bit of a bitch when it comes to reading posted impressions. People are looking for those with experience with the gear in question to help them make decisions. I'm all for enthusiasm, but pure emotional posting ends up a big mess for most of us readers, not being able to decipher hype from information. Enthusiasm tempered by reason is more helpful. That's all._

 

I understand. And I'll try to be more careful about that.

 But everyone needs to go to meets. The wealth of gear at CanJam was unreal, and I learned a lot there. I encourage everyone to not solely take our impressions as empirical data, because they aren't. We can guide you in the right direction, but ultimately you have to hear the equipment for yourself. I am amazed at how many people like Audio Technica headphones. I thought the W5000 and L3000 were horrible, but other people love them.


----------



## sandchak

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What might have been more sensible is if Kingwa said from the beginning that he was offering mis-labelled versions with a hand-made data cord for a discount. It would have come to the same thing, but without the misunderstandings._

 

I agree it would have been sensible for Kingwa to have mentioned the fact that there was some mislabeling and this discussion would not have been there.

 I also think that "dumping" wasn't really his intentions, not from someone that has proven in the past to replace free of costs any defective gears or parts.

 I personally believe that the SQ of Phoenix is more than 90% of what matters, so if posts are going be 10% about SQ and 90% about stickers and letterings, then it can be accused of being hyper critical or being paranoid just as some posts are accused of being hyperbole.

 Finally, its good to point out mistakes to make sure such things don't repeat, which is most beneficial to Audio GD, But I also think if I was kingwa and reading this thread - once would be fine - maybe twice - , but if it keeps on going as if its the only issue that matters and addressed with quite strong words, I am sure I would be pissed - Why me I am sure many would feel the same way.

 Anyway, thats the way I feel and I look forward to more impressions because I think for me it would be better to buy Phoenix than a preamp, as I get the bonus headphone amp !!


----------



## ServinginEcuador

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *D_4_Dog* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just got an email from cherry._

 

Same here!!!! No choice on whether or not to get the amp as is vs. waiting, but I want it now anyway.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Oh Les I forgot to ask earlier did you get your Lemo CAST cables finished yet ?

 Peete._

 

You just pulled a scab off a wound. I got one of the LEMOs installed in the REF1. The Connector cups are real close together and small. Additionally, you have to bridge two before you install in the case. Short story, I borked the connector and got a solder bridge I couldn't clear. Waiting on a New Connector and not real happy about it. Supposed to be here this week. If you have a real good technique for how to bridge the connectors I'm game. I was using a small wire to solder to both cups.

 .


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Agreed, and it was the first thing I mentioned before I even heard the amp. It shows lack of care for customer satisfaction and makes him look like a DIY company.

 The other side of the coin is that he is prepared to fix some of these problems if you want him to and make good on it. Also, the price of this amp is ridiculously low for what it does and how it sounds, compared to the rest of what's out there. So if that means some bad lettering (which again, should never have happened), I'd gladly choose that and pay the price I paid for this amp. Even Donald North, a tube amp designer (who came over tonight with his balanced Sonett, so I could spend more time with it) has no idea how he is building this and selling it so inexpensively, and he knows what aluminum costs. He also thought my system sounded fantastic._

 

With any Real manufacturer this would be called B-Stock or Factory Blemished or whatever. Nobody was apprised they were buying B-Stock. I would not have accepted it and would have waited. I did that with the Compass. I paid in Feb and received my Compass in April. I told him to hold it. The price has noithing to do with it. It is after all $1000.

 The crime here is the sale of B-Stock Blems as New.


----------



## akg702

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes, the Audio-gd exclusive cable is great with the Phoenix. In fact, it's what I'm using now. And it's what Kingwa used to design it. Make sure you plug it directly into the wall though -- no power strips, conditioners, etc., but a power regenerator would be okay.

 My advice, skip the D7000 and just save for the HD800. You know you will be getting the HD800, so just wait for that one. But don't count on the price dropping, unless they come out with a better model which would be a long ways out._

 

Thanks, I will get the GD power cable with the phoenix.

 I need a close headphone for work, and the Denon seem like the best for that. I will get rid of the AKG 702 when I get the senn 800 balance.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes, the Audio-gd exclusive cable is great with the Phoenix. In fact, it's what I'm using now. And it's what Kingwa used to design it. Make sure you plug it directly into the wall though -- no power strips, conditioners, etc., but a power regenerator would be okay.

 My advice, skip the D7000 and just save for the HD800. You know you will be getting the HD800, so just wait for that one. But don't count on the price dropping, unless they come out with a better model which would be a long ways out._

 

Since you have a lot of other power cables, how would you grade it in reference to your other cables?


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_With any Real manufacturer this would be called B-Stock or Factory Blemished or whatever. Nobody was apprised they were buying B-Stock. I would not have accepted it and would have waited. I did that with the Compass. I paid in Feb and received my Compass in April. I told him to hold it. The price has noithing to do with it. It is after all $1000.

 The crime here is the sale of B-Stock Blems as New._

 

I agree, Les. I would have waited, too, if I didn't have the meet on July 11th. And I wish you guys would have said something about the stickers before hand, that it is an issue you've had before. I would have made sure to tell him that the amp must be in impeccable condition before boxing it up. I guess I just assumed most new products come that way. Stupid me.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sandchak* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I agree it would have been sensible for Kingwa to have mentioned the fact that there was some mislabeling and this discussion would not have been there.

 I also think that "dumping" wasn't really his intentions, not from someone that has proven in the past to replace free of costs any defective gears or parts.

 I personally believe that the SQ of Phoenix is more than 90% of what matters, so if posts are going be 10% about SQ and 90% about stickers and letterings, then it can be accused of being hyper critical or being paranoid just as some posts are accused of being hyperbole.

 Finally, its good to point out mistakes to make sure such things don't repeat, which is most beneficial to Audio GD, But I also think if I was kingwa and reading this thread - once would be fine - maybe twice - , but if it keeps on going as if its the only issue that matters and addressed with quite strong words, I am sure I would be pissed - Why me I am sure many would feel the same way.

 Anyway, thats the way I feel and I look forward to more impressions because I think for me it would be better to buy Phoenix than a preamp, as I get the bonus headphone amp !!_

 

Always the Cheerleader!

 If he doesn't like reading it, he has options.

 .


----------



## sandchak

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Always the Cheerleader!

 If he doesn't like reading it, he has options.

 ._

 

That is correct Les, I am extremely happy with all the gears I have bought from him and you will keep hearing the cheers, unlike you that keep on buying Audio GD gears and still being hyper critical or a jeer-leader to a point it makes me feel you are making an issue just to prove a point that you are the "one" !

 If you have so many issues with Audio GD gears - You have options too !


----------



## LaidBack

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes, the Audio-gd exclusive cable is great with the Phoenix. In fact, it's what I'm using now. And it's what Kingwa used to design it...._

 

Will you just please, finally tap the brakes on power cable table talk here????

 I never run stock power cables either, but give the babble a rest, finallly...go get some sleep...

 I've tried to read this thread several times over the last few days and I continually have to check the thread header to make sure I'm in the Phoenix thread, and not accidentally in some cable thread...What????

 I've never seen so much cable talk(BY ONE F'ing PERSON!!!) on an amp thread...please stop...this isn't a cartoon or a urinal, please stop trying to make it one...

 Pick your most trusted, favorite cable...plug it in and **** about it....this thread is supposed to be about the Phoenix amp/pre-amp...


----------



## Currawong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *XXII* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_To blame Kingwa's failings on the culture of his Chinese customers is very wrong IMO. Clearly, the cultural differences fall squarely on Kingwa's shoulders. Unlike, western counterparts, he doesn't pay enough attention to the details._

 

Blame is the wrong word. He's learning the hard way what's acceptable or not to his Western customers. My post had more to do with observations I'd made working with Chinese, Vietnamese and Indian people (as well as others) and what they consider acceptable.

 Quick thoughts on the power cables: I found the Audio-gd one improved clarity a bit. For ~$100 for 1.5m the CryoLink III + basic Furutech plugs cable I made results in music with more body (it's $200 if you buy it ready-made with Neutrik plugs). I haven't noticed any significant improvement using the PS Audio Statement I bought from Patrick82, however, as I can only use it on one component I haven't been other than lazy about trying my system without it, then with it.


----------



## shampoosuicide

All of you need to **** about the stickers and the mislabelling. It's getting sickening.

 Every additional post about this only serves to perpetuate this talk and derail the thread from what most of us who are reading (and probably not posting) are concerned about - SQ impressions.

 Yes, even you Les. I'm not sure you see the irony in telling iPodPJ his over-enthusiasm was turning people off, when your incessant posting about business ethics and practices are equally bad.

 No one gives a **** or wants to read about one more post about mislabelling, business ethics, dialectics, objectivity/subjectivity or cables.

 Also, I think most of us reading this thread are intelligent enough to discern what's hyperbole and what's impassioned observation without having to tell each other what we can/cannot say or how we should say it (except that you all really need to **** about stickers). Apart from the fact that it reeks of fascism, hyperbole is practically inevitable on Head-Fi, so if you recognise it, just ignore it.

 [size=small]Let this be the last post to mention stickers and labels and other pseudo-intellectual discourse not related to SQ.[/size]

 Edit: I apologise for my rant. It's just tiring to go through this thread everyday, when about 80% of the posts in the last 10 pages or so have nothing to do with the SQ of the Phoenix, or the Phoenix itself.


----------



## atothex

I trust the posts about stickers more than I trust the posts about SQ so far.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Since you have a lot of other power cables, how would you grade it in reference to your other cables?_

 

Honestly, I prefer the Audio-gd exclusive cord ($71) to my Locus Axis ($1K).... on this amp. Let me stress that the Axis is a superb cord, Audio-gd just works better with the amp (when plugged directly into the wall). And it makes sense since Kingwa designed it that way.

 Now this cord on my source doesn't compare to the Axis or the Master LE 2.0. I'll spend more time trying it out eventually but what I heard I didn't favor. So yeah, I recommend you spend the $71 and get it. It's a steal, like everything else Kingwa sells. The Sharkwire XLR are fantastic, too, but I only have the Monoprice to compare them to.


----------



## DC5Zilla

nvm


----------



## IPodPJ

Oh, piss off. You have the option of ignoring my posts. If someone asks me a question, I can choose to answer it.
 And you have the option of ignoring Les' posts, shampoosuicide.
 And I have the option of ignoring all of your posts.

 Stop trying to control the thread and telling people what they can and can't post. Who the hell are you people to do that? If you don't like any of our posts, stop being whiny, little punks and ignore the posts. Nobody died and made you God of Head-Fi moderation. End of freakin' story.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LaidBack* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Will you just please, finally tap the brakes on power cable table talk here????

 I never run stock power cables either, but give the babble a rest, finallly...go get some sleep...

 I've tried to read this thread several times over the last few days and I continually have to check the thread header to make sure I'm in the Phoenix thread, and not accidentally in some cable thread...What????

 I've never seen so much cable talk(BY ONE F'ing PERSON!!!) on an amp thread...please stop...this isn't a cartoon or a urinal, please stop trying to make it one...

 Pick your most trusted, favorite cable...plug it in and **** about it....this thread is supposed to be about the Phoenix amp/pre-amp..._


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sandchak* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That is correct Les, I am extremely happy with all the gears I have bought from him and you will keep hearing the cheers, unlike you that keep on buying Audio GD gears and still being hyper critical or a jeer-leader to a point it makes me feel you are making an issue just to prove a point that you are the "one" !

 If you have so many issues with Audio GD gears - You have options too !_

 

Isn't that always the last resort!

 If you don't like the Screwups, don't buy it!!

 That's usually what someone says when they're backed into a corner.

 That's the best you can come up with?

 Defending the selling of B-Stock as new is a losing proposition and Ludicrous on it's face. Quit while you're miles behind.


 Or I'll unleash some PIX of the condition my REF 1 came in. You sure you want to go down this Long and winding road? I'd drop this like a hot rock if I were you.

 The replacement parts for it were supposed to be sent with my Phoenix, didn't show-up. Just keep stepping in this Poo pie!


----------



## LaidBack

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Oh, piss off. You have the option of ignoring my posts._

 

You're exactly right, you've turned this thread into a urinal...everytime I come here you're whizzing on the thread with some kind of power cable babble...

 We all like nice power cables, but this is the PHOENIX thread...

 I'm expecting this amp to be very good, but I certainly don't expect(or will ever imagine) to hear the shape of the singer's face...please go get some sleep, and meds...

 Anyway, so I got my tracking number from Audio-gd tonight. Even after all of this crazy nonsense I'm still looking forward to enjoying the Phoneix, whew...


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *shampoosuicide* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_All of you need to **** about the stickers and the mislabelling. It's getting sickening.

 Every additional post about this only serves to perpetuate this talk and derail the thread from what most of us who are reading (and probably not posting) are concerned about - SQ impressions.

 Yes, even you Les. I'm not sure you see the irony in telling iPodPJ his over-enthusiasm was turning people off, when your incessant posting about business ethics and practices are equally bad.

 No one gives a **** or wants to read about one more post about mislabelling, business ethics, dialectics, objectivity/subjectivity or cables.

 Also, I think most of us reading this thread are intelligent enough to discern what's hyperbole and what's impassioned observation without having to tell each other what we can/cannot say or how we should say it (except that you all really need to **** about stickers). Apart from the fact that it reeks of fascism, hyperbole is practically inevitable on Head-Fi, so if you recognise it, just ignore it.

 [size=small]Let this be the last post to mention stickers and labels and other pseudo-intellectual discourse not related to SQ.[/size]_

 

I'm sorry you don't see the point here.

 The thread here is what you get for your $1000. Fit, finish, build quality, solder penetration, heat dissapaption, it all matters, just like SQ. Anybody that tries to blow off the selling of B-stock as new, will hear from me. I want it stopped. It would be good fr Kingwa not to do this practice. It was not a casual mistake that this was done. Someone made the derision to do it. I'll drop this as soon as the FANBOY/Cheerleaders quit trying to defend it.


----------



## sandchak

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I

 Or I'll unleash some PIX of the condition my REF 1 came in. You sure you want to go down this Long and winding road? I'd drop this like a hot rock if I were you.

 The replacement parts for it were supposed to be sent with my Phoenix, didn't show-up. Just keep stepping in this Poo pie!_

 

I'll save you the efforts Les, here are the pictures of your REF1 when it reached you, nothing poo about it apart from those stickers, not at-least the way you scare people of "unleashing" something dreadful.. anyway, you can go ahead and mess something and post pictures. The fact is I don't believe you looking at these pictures that there was anything dreadfully wrong, which is why to me you are just a Jeer-Leader..

 EDIT. Btw, do you ever listen to your gears??.. because 90% of the time you are writing about the typos in Compass, heat in REF1 and now stickers and typos in Phoenix.. I am sure you like them, otherwise you wouldn't keep buying them one after another..


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sandchak* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'll save you the efforts Les, here are the pictures of your REF1 when it reached you, nothing poo about it apart from those stickers, not at-least the way you scare people of "unleashing" something dreadful.. anyway, you can go ahead and mess something and post pictures. The fact is I don't believe you looking at these pictures that there was anything dreadfully wrong, which is why to me you are just a Jeer-Leader..

 EDIT. Btw, do you ever listen to your gears??.. because 90% of the time you are writing about the typos in Compass, heat in REF1 and now stickers and typos in Phoenix.. I am sure you like them, otherwise you wouldn't keep buying them one after another.._

 

Keep it up...


----------



## ztsen

Why dont we split into 2 threads

 1) Pheonix SQ impression
 2) Audio-GD QC issues

 I think this will benefit readers who prefer to which thread to follow up and discuss "peacefully"


----------



## ztsen

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Honestly, I prefer the Audio-gd exclusive cord ($71) to my Locus Axis ($1K).... on this amp. Let me stress that the Axis is a superb cord, Audio-gd just works better with the amp (when plugged directly into the wall). And it makes sense since Kingwa designed it that way.

 Now this cord on my source doesn't compare to the Axis or the Master LE 2.0. I'll spend more time trying it out eventually but what I heard I didn't favor. So yeah, I recommend you spend the $71 and get it. It's a steal, like everything else Kingwa sells. The Sharkwire XLR are fantastic, too, but I only have the Monoprice to compare them to._

 

Do you get your power cord bundle with Phoenix or other product? I was quote $75 for the power cord.


----------



## squall343

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ztsen* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Do you get your power cord bundle with Phoenix or other product? I was quote $75 for the power cord. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I think the power cord must be brought separately

 but they do give a normal stock black power cord but not the 70 dollar one mentioned here


----------



## lmswjm

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ztsen* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Why dont we split into 2 threads

 1) Pheonix SQ impression
 2) Audio-GD QC issues

 I think this will benefit readers who prefer to which thread to follow up and discuss "peacefully" 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I agree, this thread is giving me a headache.


----------



## grawk

It may be, as you say, inevitable, but it didn't used to be commonplace. The whole point of the forum is to discuss the pros AND CONS of various headphones and related gear. If we only wanted to read what was good, we could just go straight to the manufacturer.


----------



## haloxt

Big thanks to ipodpj for comparing the audio-gd power cord to another one, I've been waiting MONTHS for someone to give an answer to that question. I noticed good effect with it myself, has a nice rounding effect and a slight flavor which helps make things an itty bit more "fun" sounding which is a welcome thing in my setup. Out of desperation I got a total of 3 of them, but no my pro 900 is still not as fun as my HFI-2200 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





. When Ultrasone makes a replacement for the HFI-2200 I think I'll finally be happy with my setup.

 And I'm just wondering, do you guys think open headphones are far superior to closed headphones in terms of reaping the benefits of balancing?


----------



## tim3320070

It might help if people didn't interject their feelings about other peoples posts, incurring responses from the postee..... and on and on.
 Continued impressions? You guys have had several days to burn-in, right? Les, Currawong?


----------



## Currawong

I haven't left mine on 24/7 as I did with other gear, due to the weather being unpleasantly hot. I might do so now it's rainy season, as I want to compare the HD-800s with O2s, and I might have to return them at any time.

 I agree, it'd be better now everyone has said their piece to consider comments about the sound. I hope that the upcoming meet(s) can net some good comparisons with other amps.


----------



## jimmychan

If you going to buy an American car, that would even be a lot of error.


----------



## NiToNi

Could the fact that the Phoenix is running so hot be due to that the bias is off, like this guy experienced:

Review: Audio-GD C1 Amp, C3 Preamp, and DAC8 D/A Converter


----------



## haloxt

Maybe, if anyone wants to come test and recalibrate the bias on my audio-gd equipment they're welcome to my house ^^. I brought up that possibility in the compass thread and the reply was not to worry because they have a special room to make 120v orders. I bet the heat of the Phoenix wouldn't be that bad with some air conditioning or if you live in a more temperate climate, but we're having a lot of hot weather in Georgia and the Phoenix burns to the touch 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. That's without A/C lol, the fan I have is loud as hell so I don't really want to use it.


----------



## atothex

If y'all really want SQ impressions, just wait until PJ's meet is over, and check the meet impressions thread. Hopefully, they'll be able to do side-by-sides with other balanced headphone amps for real apples to apples comparisons. If you don't trust his impressions, hopefully someone at the meet is trustworthy to you.


----------



## tim3320070

I think we (I) just want more thought on it, not that we don't trust PJ. I understand the need for serious listening time and burn-in but it has been several days now.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tim3320070* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It might help if people didn't interject their feelings about other peoples posts, incurring responses from the postee..... and on and on.
 Continued impressions? You guys have had several days to burn-in, right? Les, Currawong?_

 

I haven't made my mind up on it and have been letting it run in well. I do wonder about the point and purpose of a promo period that is only about a week long effectively.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *NiToNi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Could the fact that the Phoenix is running so hot be due to that the bias is off, like this guy experienced:

Review: Audio-GD C1 Amp, C3 Preamp, and DAC8 D/A Converter_

 

*[size=small]I STARTED THE HEAT DISCUSSION, MY MISTAKE. LET ME MAKE THIS CLEAR AS CRYSTAL. IT DOES NOT HAVE A HEAT DISSIPATION PROBLEM IF IT IS ARRANGED PROPERLY WHILE STACKED. THE PSU SHOULD BE ON TOP, AND THEN THE TEMP IS JUST OVER 100F AT THE HOTTEST PART OF THE CASE.[/size] *

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Maybe, if anyone wants to come test and recalibrate the bias on my audio-gd equipment they're welcome to my house ^^. I brought up that possibility in the compass thread and the reply was not to worry because they have a special room to make 120v orders. I bet the heat of the Phoenix wouldn't be that bad with some air conditioning or if you live in a more temperate climate, but we're having a lot of hot weather in Georgia and the Phoenix burns to the touch 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. That's without A/C lol, the fan I have is loud as hell so I don't really want to use it._

 

SEE ABOVE, MINE IS JUST BARELY WARM TO THE TOUCH IN A ROOM WHERE THE AMBIENT TEMP IS 80F.


----------



## haloxt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tim3320070* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think we (I) just want more thought on it, not that we don't trust PJ. I understand the need for serious listening time and burn-in but it has been several days now._

 

We'd mostly just be repeating ourselves, I think most of us have agreed it sounds great which is about as clearly defined our opinions can be until more burn-in and more people get to test the Phoenix. But I'd like to retract my thought that perhaps the Phoenix would have the drawback of revealing too much of the weaknesses in an audio chain. Especially with balanced headphones the Phoenix contributes so many good things to the sound that it could almost make me forget about the shortcomings of the rest of my gear. Whenever I try to pin down flaws in the music or in my gear my attention keeps getting distracted by how faithfully reproduced the sound is now, and it seems to truly emphasize the best parts of the rest of my gear, ie. the great dynamics of dac19mk3 and great low-end of my headphones. Also 200kb files may sound like crap but they're still detailed and dynamic enough to be pretty fun with the Phoenix hehe.


----------



## tim3320070

There you go- that is helpful and appreciated!


----------



## Yikes

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_We'd mostly just be repeating ourselves, I think most of us have agreed it sounds great which is about as clearly defined our opinions can be until more burn-in and more people get to test the Phoenix. But I'd like to retract my thought that perhaps the Phoenix would have the drawback of revealing too much of the weaknesses in an audio chain. Especially with balanced headphones the Phoenix contributes so many good things to the sound that it could almost make me forget about the shortcomings of the rest of my gear. Whenever I try to pin down flaws in the music or in my gear my attention keeps getting distracted by how faithfully reproduced the sound is now, and it seems to truly emphasize the best parts of the rest of my gear, ie. the great dynamics of dac19mk3 and great low-end of my headphones. Also 200kb files sound sound crap but they're still pretty fun with the Phoenix hehe._

 

Fanboy
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, me too.

 To tell the truth I think Kingwa should stick to his stated Promotional Discount end date. It's not right to let all of the Chicken S### members get flawless units at the discounted price. If he extends the discount period he is in essence insuring that next time no one will order early.

 With well over 100 hours under its belt the Phoenix is continuing to impress me (As a preamp). I can't think of a preamp under 3-4 thousand dollars that I'd rather listen to. My only real criticism is that I wish it had a balance control.

 The remote is working fine at about 35 degrees off axis.
 Les is correct, although it does run very warm, it's not a serious issue. I do however strongly recommend against putting the Phoenix inside a sealed cabinet.
 The stickers - Stupid, I'm sure I'll be more pissed about them when I finally get around to removing them.
 Mislabeled Rear panel-Not an issue for me.

 I wish that I could provide some insight in to its performance as a Headphone Amplifier. All I have is some Balanced GS1000's on hand. The problem is that I have zero experience with the GS1000's on other amps, so I have no point of reference.


----------



## Pyriel0

tim3320070 if you happen to be down near st louis for any reason this summer let me know. We could compare the phoenix to the f1. If not there is always the Chicago meet later this year.


----------



## fdhfdy

don't think the dealer cables will always bring better sq. Even some of them are truly good but that may reveal more faults of the system than the advs.

 What I found about the amp through the thread is that it can be very hot while working and something else about the sq? 

 Kingwa should sell first batch of them to AUs where is having winter atm. SO heat may not be a issue here.


----------



## tim3320070

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pyriel0* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_tim3320070 if you happen to be down near st louis for any reason this summer let me know. We could compare the phoenix to the f1. If not there is always the Chicago meet later this year. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Okay, I'll let you know. I wouldn't mind a return to the Muny for a musical- I used to go as a kid quite often (my dad sang there some).


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Fanboy
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





, me too.

 To tell the truth I think Kingwa should stick to his stated Promotional Discount end date. It's not right to let all of the Chicken S### members get flawless units at the discounted price. If he extends the discount period he is in essence insuring that next time no one will order early.

 With well over 100 hours under its belt the Phoenix is continuing to impress me (As a preamp). I can't think of a preamp under 3-4 thousand dollars that I'd rather listen to. My only real criticism is that I wish it had a balance control.

 The remote is working fine at about 35 degrees off axis.
Les is correct, although it does run very warm, it's not a serious issue. I do however strongly recommend against putting the Phoenix inside a sealed cabinet.
 The stickers - Stupid, I'm sure I'll be more pissed about them when I finally get around to removing them.
 Mislabeled Rear panel-Not an issue for me.

 I wish that I could provide some insight in to its performance as a Headphone Amplifier. All I have is some Balanced GS1000's on hand. The problem is that I have zero experience with the GS1000's on other amps, so I have no point of reference._

 

You beat me to a few things that I had posted elsewhere about this. I have mine on a Cheap Azz wooden shelf set. It's sitting on my desk, so that the Phoenix is 4.5' or so off the ground and the ceiling fan is running. So air movement across the chassis, especially the bottom is crucial to cooling the REF1 anf the Phoenix. When I had my ceiling fan off with the REF1, the temps kicked up about 12 degrees or so and I kinda freaked till I figured it out.

 I think putting it in a Cabinet and causing air flow to be decreased is asking for 20 degrees more heat. Kingwa says the gear needs some temp to sound good. I'm no EE but I'm not sure how that works. 

 The Phoenix is either the Best I've heard or is doing something nefarious to the music. It seems to have less sibilance on things that are normally sibilant to me. This makes the music more enjoyable, but is it filtering? It makes bad recordings much more enjoyable to listen to. It reveals more separation, detail, and delicacy to what is usually cocaphony. I'm trying to figure out how it does that, since usually the more revealing gear is, the less enjoyable a bad recording. Not here, it somehow sounds smooth and detailed.

 The rendering of different types of percussion is amazing. If you hear a guy beating on a Cowbell or a Block of wood, you can hear the fact that he is striking it slightly different each time he hits it.

 Unless I can find something wrong with it, and you know I'm looking hard, I'm pretty much done with buying amps. Except for this insatiable desire to Build a 6 Channel B22 which I am consulting a Psychiatrist about.

 I would call this a preliminary feeling, by no means have I spent enough time with it. It's just some observances. I also have not listened to the "Best' amps out there. I only have the DV 337SE as my Benchmark to A/B against in the higher end arena. I've ran it against an Upgraded zero, a Compass, the DV337SE, and compared to the Studio Monitors I'm using.

 I would say there would be two ways to compare this gear. First, it's price point. What out there in the $1000 arena could nail it. Second, it's effective price point, which would make it cost $3-$5,000 if built domestically. Personally I think it can compete in both areas if objectively evaluated. The place it can't compete is in the QC/FIT/Finish. It is close. ut needs the niggles ironed out of it. It should arrive with no grunge, no scratches, and no fingerprints. The bottom of my REF1 looks like a crime scene. A little 409 would have helped. A-GD is getting better, I think A-GD learned a lot form the Compass program, it spawned the C-2C redesign. Look at the original C-2C to see where it came from!


----------



## grawk

Having to have a ceiling fan to have proper cooling sounds like a design flaw to me


----------



## Yikes

In my experience a lot of gear that offers balanced outputs does not actually sound better balanced. A little experiment that I just performed leads me to believe that the balanced outputs (Preamp) of the Phoenix do in fact sound better than the SE outs. I'll be pulling in a different DAC that has balanced outs so that I can experiment with a completely balanced signal chain.

 The Phoenix sounding better balanced annoys me for a couple of reasons. First being my better DAC is SE only, so I'll have to spend money to either upgrade it, or purchase a new DAC. Second is that all of my best cabling is SE as well. Purchasing comparable balanced cables is going to cost me a fortune. Of course I don't have to replace the DAC or Cables, the fact that it sounds better balanced doesn't change the fact that it sounds great as is. I don't need to upgrade, I only want to.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *grawk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Having to have a ceiling fan to have proper cooling sounds like a design flaw to me_

 

It's not a design flaw. Kingwa has stated several times that he designed this equipment as Class A which runs hot and sounds better that way. I don't like how hot it gets either, it's like I have a heater competing with my A/C unit. But if I had to choose between a cooler running amp that doesn't sound as good and the Phoenix, it's a no-brainer.

 And mine gets much hotter than Les is reporting. I have them stacked with the PSU on top, and the bottom of the case easily has to be getting to over 130 degrees, and the top at least 115. If it was only 100 degrees it wouldn't feel like it was about to burn you. Honestly, I think it's much hotter than what I just posted.


----------



## grawk

Other class A components don't get dangerously hot if not kept in a datacenter or near a ceiling fan. It's a matter of designing the amp to have adequate heat dissipation.


----------



## The Monkey

I remember that my HeadRoom balanced desktop ran very hot. Definitely hot--not warm--to the touch. My own technical knowledge is minimal at best, but is it really that the gear needs to run hot to sound its best? Or rather is it that by virtue of running Class A, it necessarily means that heat will be a by-product? And if the latter, is this something that heatsinking could or would mitigate?


----------



## n_maher

The temps just mentioned by IpodPJ are pretty scary. While it's true that running amps in Class A requires heat (it's a by-product, like it or not) the degree to which that heat is concentrated is what causes amps to run hot. I'd suggest that if the power supply had a heat sink instead of simply using the chassis as a heat sink it would be able to run at significantly cooler temperatures while dissipating the same number of watts. And if the surface temp is 130+ people really do need to be careful, that's hot enough to give you a 3rd degree burn in less than a minute. I'd hate to think what the internal temps are like in that fully sealed chassis. Whether or not it's a flaw is certainly questionable, but it's not like it had to be this way either. It was an active choice made by the designer and not one that I'd make on a commercial product.


----------



## Kees

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *The Monkey* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I remember that my HeadRoom balanced desktop ran very hot. Definitely hot--not warm--to the touch. My own technical knowledge is minimal at best, but is it really that the gear needs to run hot to sound its best? Or rather is it that by virtue of running Class A, it necessarily means that heat will be a by-product? And if the latter, is this something that heatsinking could or would mitigate?_

 

Class A amps run hot. Very hot sometimes. Heatsinks help. Class A poweramps often have extremely big heatsinks. 
 Like this one, the Audio Analyse A9, I used to own one and I can assure you the heatsinks are not over done.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It's not a design flaw. Kingwa has stated several times that he designed this equipment as Class A which runs hot and sounds better that way. I don't like how hot it gets either, it's like I have a heater competing with my A/C unit. But if I had to choose between a cooler running amp that doesn't sound as good and the Phoenix, it's a no-brainer.

 And mine gets much hotter than Les is reporting. I have them stacked with the PSU on top, and the bottom of the case easily has to be getting to over 130 degrees, and the top at least 115. If it was only 100 degrees it wouldn't feel like it was about to burn you. Honestly, I think it's much hotter than what I just posted._

 

One thing that helped mine is that the PSU presently has Sorbothane pucks elevating it off the surface of the Interface chassis. This gives it about another 1/2-3/4" of air space. 120F felt "Hot" to me, so 130F would bother me even more. 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *The Monkey* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I remember that my HeadRoom balanced desktop ran very hot. Definitely hot--not warm--to the touch. My own technical knowledge is minimal at best, but is it really that the gear needs to run hot to sound its best? Or rather is it that by virtue of running Class A, it necessarily means that heat will be a by-product? And if the latter, is this something that heatsinking could or would mitigate?_

 

Hey,
 I was wonderin g if you or Grawk or somebody had some specs on how hot the S-22 PSU units run. They are Class A biased and they run pretty hot from statements I've read. I've never seen any IR numbers posted though. Class A gear ALL makes heat as a Byproduct of the quiescent Bias current applied. This amp is basically a 1-3 Watt Class A amp. It does not make the heat of any Bigger Class A Power amps, like Krell and Threshold. I'm VERY familiar with them and they produce heat that should impress anyone. But that's not what we have here, it's a relatively low wattage amp. 

 Mine does not feel hot anymore. It is relatively exposed at the moment and has plenty of air movement around it.

 iPodPJ, is yours in a Cabinet? How much exposure and air flow is around it? Does it have a lot of other heat producers around it. I would say mine is warm only, and I did post those numbers. Can you get it real exposed and see if the temp changes? Ican see how if it doesn't have a stream of ventilation air on it, that the heat would soak it.


----------



## tim3320070

I had a Musical Fidelity class A amp that was as hot as my other AGD stuff, it's the nature of it. I don't know why everyone is so concerned, you have to have it ventilated to some extent. I use a shelf unit from Home Depot for my stuff- it's no $2000 "audiphile" shelving, it was $20 and I think looks pretty good, especially at that price point (can you tell I'm frugal). More importantly it ventilates things about a good as it gets nest to using fans IMO.

 edit: my ref-1 feels pretty warm but not even close to burning skin temperature- I have since chaned things so that nothing is stacked as shown in the pic.


----------



## The Monkey

Les, I should have an S-22 in-house in the near future. I'll let you know.


----------



## haloxt

When I have air circulation in my house the Phoenix is just mildly warm. I bet people at audio-gd are asking themselves, "Haven't they heard of air conditioning?" Btw that stand looks like exactly what I need tim, I'll look for one with wheels so I can drag my Phoenix+dac19mk3+power conditioner around heh heh.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *grawk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Having to have a ceiling fan to have proper cooling sounds like a design flaw to me_

 

It's warms the heart that such an influential member of not 1 but 2 online audio forums has taken it upon himself (with his usual selfless approach) the personal responsibility of ensuring that absolutely no monkey business (sorry Monkey 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) will be tolerated in this thread !!!!!

 I can now sleep soundly at night thanks to these selfless altruistic efforts....let me be the first to say thank you Dan....
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Peete.


----------



## n_maher

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ I was wonderin g if you or Grawk or somebody had some specs on how hot the S-22 PSU units run._

 

I built a beta22 for tyrion that ran a sigma22, two beta22s and the trafo all in the same enclosure. The amp was biased according to amb's specifictions (deep class A) and if I recall correctly the chassis surface temp was under 90F after 6 hours of continuous operation and was stable. The heat sinks themselves were of course much hotter but the chassis was reasonably well ventilated - I viewed this as "safe". 

 I assume that this is what your question was referring to.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

It occurs to me that energy disapation needs, the spec of the parts used and the planned over all surface area of the bottom plate may actually be a better way to go in this case since the sq in equivalent (heat sink) needed in a internally mounted set of heat sinks may not fit in the chassis provided or may actually be worse at cooling than bolting these parts to a large, thick aluminum bottom plate.

 Which method in this case is more efficient and will lower the overall temp across the unit's entire pcb, that's up for debate right now ? The large pcb mounted Heat sinks create hot spots ...anyway it's something to think about.

 I would imagine Kingwa has worked out what rate of heat transfer is needed to remain at safe levels but at the same time it's incumbent on the end user to properly set up the unit to begin with and heed the installation warning. This isn't the first amp nor will it be the last that comes with a "install in a well ventilated spot" warning.

 It sounds to me like you guys have a solid point but in reality it much ado about nothing. IMO at least.

 Peete.

 PS: It might be worth investigating a bottom plate that is a combined heat sink (say 5 mm ribs) and structual member that could be CNC machined from 10 mm stock. Of course the additional machining and relief cuts for the V reg mounting hardware and feet would add to the cost but it's worth a inquiry at least unless of course Kingwa says it not needed. An idea that may serve 2 needs and still keep the looks more or less intact.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tim3320070* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I had a Musical Fidelity class A amp that was as hot as my other AGD stuff, it's the nature of it. I don't know why everyone is so concerned, you have to have it ventilated to some extent. I use a shelf unit from Home Depot for my stuff- it's no $2000 "audiphile" shelving, it was $20 and I think looks pretty good, especially at that price point (can you tell I'm frugal). More importantly it ventilates things about a good as it gets nest to using fans IMO.

 edit: my ref-1 feels pretty warm but not even close to burning skin temperature- I have since chaned things so that nothing is stacked as shown in the pic._

 

That's the perfect shelf for Gear that has it's Transistors sinked to the Bottom of the Chassis for sure. Or any other piece of gear that LOVES ventilation as Kingwa's stuff seems to.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *The Monkey* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Les, I should have an S-22 in-house in the near future. I'll let you know._

 

Thanx!

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_When I have air circulation in my house the Phoenix is just mildly warm. I bet people at audio-gd are asking themselves, "Haven't they heard of air conditioning?" Btw that stand looks like exactly what I need tim, I'll look for one with wheels so I can drag my Phoenix+dac19mk3+power conditioner around heh heh._

 

We need to have a Group build to build you an AC unit. You live live in Georgia and don't run your AC? I did some Graduate work at FSU and had no AC in my Housing there, unbelievable! I'm sure I had some brain cells Fry that year and it wasn't from Alcohol!

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *n_maher* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I built a beta22 for tyrion that ran a sigma22, two beta22s and the trafo all in the same enclosure. The amp was biased according to amb's specifictions (deep class A) and if I recall correctly the chassis surface temp was under 90F after 6 hours of continuous operation and was stable. The heat sinks themselves were of course much hotter but the chassis was reasonably well ventilated - I viewed this as "safe". 

 I assume that this is what your question was referring to._

 

Yeah, those were the numbers I was referring to. That kinda makes sense though. You have Transistors with Chimney type convective heat sinks and a ventilated top plate above them. I'll bet those Heat sinks were toasty. The Phoenix relies on conductive sinking to a relatively inefficient convective surface. I'm saying inefficient because of the lack of surface area compared to conventioneal finned heat sinks. 

 Here's some temps I shot in the box before. There are two heat sinked devices in the middle of the PSU PCB. One runs a temp of about 156F and one about 148F. 3 Trafos in the front, all run about 134F on the iron core. The device sinked to the bottom plate go about 125-127F on the device. 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It occurs to me that energy disapation needs, the spec of the parts used and the planned over all surface area of the bottom plate may actually be a better way to go in this case since the sq in equivalent (heat sink) needed in a internally mounted set of heat sinks may not fit in the chassis provided or may actually be worse at cooling than bolting these parts to a large, thick aluminum bottom plate.

 Which method in this case is more efficient and will lower the overall temp across the unit's entire pcb, that's up for debate right now ? The large pcb mounted Heat sinks create hot spots ...anyway it's something to think about.

 I would imagine Kingwa has worked out what rate of heat transfer is needed to remain at safe levels but at the same time it's incumbent on the end user to properly set up the unit to begin with and heed the installation warning. This isn't the first amp nor will it be the last that comes with a "install in a well ventilated spot" warning.

 It sounds to me like you guys have a solid point but in reality it much ado about nothing. IMO at least.

 Peete.

 PS: It might be worth investigating a bottom plate that is a combined heat sink (say 5 mm ribs) and structual member that could be CNC machined from 10 mm stock. Of course the additional machining and relief cuts for the V reg mounting hardware and feet would add to the cost but it's worth a inquiry at least unless of course Kingwa says it not needed. An idea that may serve 2 needs and still keep the looks more or less intact._

 

I thought about putting some Heat sinks on the DACs in the REF1. The idea of a finned bottom plate has some merit I would think theoretically.

 However, mine is running fine and has no issue with heat at present. I would be interested in others environments where they are seeing heat and try to figure all the patterns to determine no-no's for what not to do.


----------



## NiToNi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pyriel0* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm going to have the buffalo es9008 chip(no ivy stage) -> phoenix -> k1000 I think that will be the end of the line for me._

 

That is an awesome project. Please keep us posted on your progress.


----------



## Currawong

I don't see the heat as a big issue. All the regular hi-fi amps my family owned had instructions about placement and stacking, and they were all only 30W or so.


----------



## moonboy403

Is it safe to assume that if one's using SE all the way, there are plenty of better options than the Phoenix out there?


----------



## glitch39

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *moonboy403* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is it safe to assume that if one's using SE all the way, there are plenty of better options than the Phoenix out there?_

 

I think so. The C2C comes to mind. I like mine a lot and I am a tube guy! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 One reason I might go with the phoenix is to stay balanced on SS platform. Otherwise, if I am staying with SE, the C2C would fill my needs nicely - great bang for buck


----------



## Pyriel0

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *NiToNi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That is an awesome project. Please keep us posted on your progress.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I would have liked to NiToNi but I couldn't find actual specs on the bpm-7110 (the current transimission modules) anywhere. The buffalo puts out 16.896 ma peak to peak from what I have gathered from the spec sheet in stereo quad differential mode. Kingwa and I played email tag about it but without an actual spec sheet, I eventually gave up and cancelled my order. I would have needed to put a resistor to ground in parallel with the bpm input to siphon off most of the current so the module would only get about 2 ma peak to peak(maybe 4, I'm not quite sure). I am not about to attempt this on a $1k+ piece of gear from overseas without cold hard facts in hand. I just caved last week and ordered a F1 so no chance of me getting a different amp now lol.


----------



## NiToNi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If the Phoenix is based on one of Kingwa's CAST preamps why does he omit the CAST amplifier output?_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *insyte* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm just curious as to why there is no CAST output on the phoenix._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *martook* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Only thing that I find a bit disappointing about the Phoenix is that there are no CAST output for the preamp. Sure, "then no one would buy his pre amps", but it also means that I won't get one of his power amps, which I most likely would (at some point when I could afford it obviously) had the Phoenix been equipped with CAST outputs. So it's just as much his loss really... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *punk_guy182* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Anyhow, has anyone tried investigating why the Phoenix doesn't have CAST outputs? I was told that the PreAmp of the Phoenix is as as good as C-3SE._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LaidBack* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I view the Phoenix as a nice pre-amp purchase as well. With the Reference One DAC feeding it from both computer and CDP, the Phoenix will be the epicenter of my gear. I'd really like to be able to run CAST outputs to a potential C-10 or C-1..._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Kingwa told someone else (I forget who) that he doesn't want it cutting into the sales of his pre-amps. Ironically, he could well upgrade it down the track to include CAST output, and abolish the C-3SE. He could also start a trend here of CAST usage, though I doubt any other manufacturers would follow._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The Phoenix is a C-3 Preamp with an upgraded PSU and a modification to the CAST output for Headphone output. He took all the modules from the C-3 Preamp, denuded the modules, crammed them into a small footprint, removed the CAST output, and improved the Power supply to make the Phoenix. So, he really didn't redesign anything, he just put it in a small package._

 

Does this mean that there is not even a CAST output module in the circuit anymore, prohibiting Audio-GD to offer this as an option or for modders to DIY their own CAST output? I agree that it is a bit disappointing that the design doesn't offer CAST output when it's clearly Kingwa's signature feature and it could so easily have been added. Then it would also work as the fully functional preamp it is being marketed to be.


 ... btw I thought CAST was proprietary technology or has Krell's patent expired?

 On another note, does anyone know if the third pin on the 3-pin XLR outputs is connected to ground so balanced cables that are designed to use this pin for shielding work as intended?


----------



## tim3320070

I really wanted CAST ouput as well but Kingwa says no dice. It would simplify my setup quite nicely.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

see next page for correct info.


----------



## Nada

I just placed an order and Im very impressed by the customer service at audio-gd. They have been incredibly efficient and nice.

 Im not too concerned about the heat issue as my Class A speaker amps run at over 120F (50 Celsius) and thats in winter. Heat seems to be the current price for great sound. Eventually Class D advances may well sonically match both Class A SS and tubes and we can all chill out.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_iPodPJ, is yours in a Cabinet? How much exposure and air flow is around it? Does it have a lot of other heat producers around it. I would say mine is warm only, and I did post those numbers. Can you get it real exposed and see if the temp changes? Ican see how if it doesn't have a stream of ventilation air on it, that the heat would soak it._

 

Is mine in a cabinet??? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	










 It's 2 feet in front and to the right of my A/C wall unit running on full blast. I couldn't imagine what the temps would get up to with the air off! And the scary thing is I want to put it in a cabinet soon. I also have vinyl bumpers raising the PSU about another 1/4".


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tim3320070* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I had a Musical Fidelity class A amp that was as hot as my other AGD stuff, it's the nature of it. I don't know why everyone is so concerned, you have to have it ventilated to some extent. I use a shelf unit from Home Depot for my stuff- it's no $2000 "audiphile" shelving, it was $20 and I think looks pretty good, especially at that price point (can you tell I'm frugal). More importantly it ventilates things about a good as it gets nest to using fans IMO.

 edit: my ref-1 feels pretty warm but not even close to burning skin temperature- I have since chaned things so that nothing is stacked as shown in the pic._

 

Is putting your equipment on a metal rack good for the audio quality? Can't that cause some grounding issues and interference? Also, surely it doesn't have good vibration control.


----------



## Yikes

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is putting your equipment on a metal rack good for the audio quality? Can't that cause some grounding issues and interference? Also, surely it doesn't have good vibration control._

 

Not all racks that use metal are created equal. Here's my Symposium rack. The Phoenix now resides where the Chord CPA-5000 was.


----------



## haloxt

So like I want less bass and better mids-highs what cheap vibration control do you recommend? Right now it's sitting on a wooden platform hehe.


----------



## Yikes

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So like I want less bass and better mids-highs what cheap vibration control do you recommend? Right now it's sitting on a wooden platform hehe._


----------



## tim3320070

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is putting your equipment on a metal rack good for the audio quality? Can't that cause some grounding issues and interference? Also, surely it doesn't have good vibration control._

 

None of that concerns me- if I had a turntable, sure on the vibration potential, but I don't. 
 Let's let that one go.......


----------



## Currawong

Internal pics of mine, because people asked. The photography is a bit crappy because I had to use a slow shutter and narrow aperture, but I've uploaded 1920 wide versions.


----------



## tim3320070

From Kingwa when asked about metal shelf for his gear:

 "Dear Tim,
 REF1 and FBI500 is use plastic so metal shelf can't let they become short earth.
 Phoenix apply metal feet, so want make the isolation for Phoenix.
 Kingwa"

 So I will use the rubber feet on the Phoenix and not worry about the rest of it.


----------



## Progenitor

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This subject came up at HC chat about fusing protection........Kingwa specs R-Cores with built in fuses inline to protect against heat and current (as Kingwa puts it)...you can see the inline protection on top of the 2 outside R-Cores under the heat shrink tubing. The upside down R Core has it's fuse (the exact same one as the others) underneath obviously....here's a pic from the web site showing such...

 Peete._

 

Does this mean that the transformer has to be replaced if the fuse blows?


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Progenitor* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Does this mean that the transformer has to be replaced if the fuse blows?_

 

Looks like some type of fusible link inline.

 .


----------



## Pars

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *NiToNi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Does this mean that there is not even a CAST output module in the circuit anymore, prohibiting Audio-GD to offer this as an option or for modders to DIY their own CAST output? I agree that it is a bit disappointing that the design doesn't offer CAST output when it's clearly Kingwa's signature feature and it could so easily have been added. Then it would also work as the fully functional preamp it is being marketed to be.


*... btw I thought CAST was proprietary technology or has Krell's patent expired?*

 On another note, does anyone know if the third pin on the 3-pin XLR outputs is connected to ground so balanced cables that are designed to use this pin for shielding work as intended?_

 

Anyone know if CAST is patented (I assume so) by Krell and if it is still in effect?


----------



## Currawong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pars* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Anyone know if CAST is patented (I assume so) by Krell and if it is still in effect?_

 

I'm curious about this as well. It's probably not so good to use the term "CAST" if he is going to sell gear overseas, as it might attract the wrong kind of attention. I noticed the "SATRI" label on the outputs, and found this forum discussion about it. Tyson is the same Tyson on here I think.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Progenitor* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Does this mean that the transformer has to be replaced if the fuse blows?_

 

Apparently that is the case. The fuse is integral to this R-Core design which are over spec (130V primary) custom order IIRC. Originally I thought it was the inline splice on the top but I was in error. 

 Kingwa replied to my inquiry and confirmed the fuse is integral. Must be a new way of doing things with R Cores...... I have to confess I know very little about R Cores except that they are a superior trafo design according to specs for audio applications.

 I'll see if I can't dig up some details on it somewhere (on the practice not the actual part).

 Peete.

 PS I found a small blurb on R Cores from Lenco in IL oustide of Chicago...it spells out the basics http://www.lenco-elect.com/r_core_transformers.htm The search continues for more specifics. One more from Elso Kwak http://www.jeichicago.com/products/r-core.shtml and another from EK http://www.jeichicago.com/products/r-core_compare.shtml

 EDIT: Update from Kingwa. Of 10,000 units sold (most had the internal fuse) 1 or 2 have come back needing the transformer fixed from the fuse going. The trigger point for the thermal fuse is 150 Celcius.


----------



## Pale Rider

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't advocate you supporting the company, but the truth is the truth... they make some of the world's best power cords. And for this price, it's a steal:

Virtual Dynamics - Audiophile Audio Cable_

 

Thanks. That is one helluva discount.


----------



## IPodPJ

Some more impressions, and "Dallan" will post in here tomorrow. He came over tonight and we compared the Phoenix to the Zana Deux using my RAM modded DL3 and his single ended HD800 and my balanced HD800. (He liked the DL3 so much that he is buying one and getting it modded.)

 I am not going to go into specifics now as I'm just too tired, but here are the end results:

 SE input / SE output on both Zana Deux and Phoenix: Zana Deux sounds more refined and we both agreed it was better than the Phoenix overall in this test. At 25% of total gain, Phoenix does not get very loud and I can listen at 70 on the dial. 99 is too loud for my ears but will not damage your headphones at all. (Don't try that with Balanced in/SE out (50% gain) or Balanced in/Balanced out (100% gain))

 Balanced input / SE output on Phoenix, SE input / SE output on Zana Deux (that's all there is on the Zana): Dave preferred the Zana, I slightly preferred the Phoenix but they each have different presentations that are equally as pleasing. Phoenix has a much blacker background.

 Balanced input / Balanced output on Phoenix: Dave and I both felt that the Phoenix completely blew the Zana Deux out of the water. No contest. This is what the Phoenix is designed for and this is where it shows its genius. The cleanest, clearest, blackest background, smoothest presentation, detailed, spatious, dynamic, you name it.


----------



## Currawong

iPodPJ: Thanks for the impressions, very interesting. 

 An interesting thing I found out today: I already knew that if you plug the Reference 1 into an amp via SATRI/CAST to another Audio-gd amp, that XLR on the Ref 1 would be disconnected automatically, so you can't use both at the same time. Conveniently, if you switch off the Phoenix, it disconnects the SATRI/CAST connection, so the XLR output on the Ref 1 would be re-engaged without having to disconnect the SATRI/CAST cables. This means that all I have to do if I want to listen with the Stax rig instead is just turn off the Phoenix (or change the input selection on it).


----------



## moonboy403

There are only 5 more silver version of the Phoenix left(all of which have wrong labelings). After they're sold, there will only be black version from then on.


----------



## Yikes

I remember when Audio-gd said that they couldn't make the Phoenix in Silver. I would have loved to have had my Phoenix in Silver, but like most of us we were lead to believe that it couldn't be done in Silver. I'm tired of black.


----------



## The Monkey

Dude, champagne is the new black.


----------



## tim3320070

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_iPodPJ: Thanks for the impressions, very interesting. 

 An interesting thing I found out today: I already knew that if you plug the Reference 1 into an amp via SATRI/CAST to another Audio-gd amp, that XLR on the Ref 1 would be disconnected automatically, so you can't use both at the same time. Conveniently, if you switch off the Phoenix, it disconnects the SATRI/CAST connection, so the XLR output on the Ref 1 would be re-engaged without having to disconnect the SATRI/CAST cables. This means that all I have to do if I want to listen with the Stax rig instead is just turn off the Phoenix (or change the input selection on it)._

 

Yeah, Kingwa told me when there is no signal to or from the SATRI connection (I'm calling it that from now on), the analog connections can work, otherwise they are bypassed. I asked (bugged) Kingwa about a SATRI output on the Phoenix but he said:

 "Phoenix apply CAST but only while design, I don't add the output pots on the PCB. If want CAST output must re-design the PCB only for add the output pots."

 He designed not to have an output it seems.


----------



## Currawong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *The Monkey* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Dude, champagne is the new black._

 

Mid-90's Luxman called and want their shiny back.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I remember when Audio-gd said that they couldn't make the Phoenix in Silver. I would have loved to have had my Phoenix in Silver, but like most of us we were lead to believe that it couldn't be done in Silver. I'm tired of black._

 

The chassis manufacturer couldn't produce the original case design (Kingwa's original vision) in silver because it was too complicated. So they came up with a alternative from the original drawings. They kept it as close to the one Kingwa had in mind from the start and I think the chassis manufacturer did a pretty good job of that.

 Also...silver was going to be the only color available at first...but many of us wanted black as well. 

 Peete.


----------



## punk_guy182

Black is cool.
 Peete: Do you have any updated info regarding tyour shipment?
 I called Canada Post and I was told that mine was still held at customs and that I won't receive it before next week.


----------



## Yikes

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *punk_guy182* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Black is cool.
 Peete: Do you have any updated info regarding tyour shipment?
 I called Canada Post and I was told that mine was still held at customs and that I won't receive it before next week. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I'll trade you our fast Customs clearence for your Heathcare system.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

One of the 2 tracking number shows the same message as last week (24th) while the other shows held for inspection at customs (in Vancouver) but I'm unsure which package (track #) the amp is linked to. I had sent an email back to Cherry asking for some help in determining this but they don't know either (as they are given the numbers after the units ship). There are no details on weight with EMS/Can Post so I can't find out that way either. At best I have a 50/50 shot it's the amp and at worst it's the accessories (2 mains cables, 4 pin XLR kit, stepped pot for the C-2C) shipment that is being held right now.

 I'm obviously hoping that the amp is on the way. Of course a third possibility is they've lumped the 2 packages together and haven't bothered to update or scan the second label. I remain skeptical of that 3rd option though since they are supposed to be physically separate. I'll simply have to wait to see what turns up. 

 Peete.


----------



## tim3320070

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Mine arrived. The packing was quite good, not as troublesome as I imagined it would be. Everything looks good with a couple of a couple of things that might bother people: The remote was wrapped in regular Styrofoam which isn't so great, as it generates static and is messy. The screws in the remote were so tightly done up that I stripped one trying to remove (to find out there was already a battery in there and I didn't need to install the one that came spare. The remote appears to be hand-made and the buttons are a bit wobbly. The data cable with its weird extra wire looks rather kludged. The mute option is only available on the remote. The input selector knob on the front panel changes inputs with two or three "clicks", not one, which is a bit weird. The remote does this with one press. I'm ambivalent regarding the labels for the inputs, which I guess were put there after a screw-up with the printing on the panels.

 Out of the box, a significant jump over the C2C, even single-ended with the HD-800s. The slight haze the C2C put over the music is not there with the Phoenix. The HD-800s are now a very serious threat to the Stax. I have done a bit of a quick A/B with CAST vs. my expensive XLR cables, and (noting that I can't volume match properly without an SPL meter) so far the CAST sounds as good. There's possibly a tiny amount of tonal change between the cables, but it's at a threshold at which I don't consider myself reliable in determining after only a little time listening.

 Overall: I'm very happy with the sound, but the small details still need work. 

 By the way, the trick to removing labels without leaving a mess is to peel them off very slowly._

 

Any more observations with the SATRI vs XLR sound? One better than the other (more detailed) or just different?
 Thanks


----------



## punk_guy182

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'll trade you our fast Customs clearence for your Heathcare system._

 

I'd rather hold on to our current healtcare system. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Peete: The latest info on the tracking website cites: 2009/06/2808:32VANCOUVERItem was released by Customs and is now with Canada Post for processing.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'll trade you our fast Customs clearence for your Heathcare system._

 

You can have it........it's useless for sick people but great for the healthy ones. 

 Peete.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *punk_guy182* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'd rather hold on to our current healtcare system. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Peete: The latest info on the tracking website cites: 2009/06/2808:32VANCOUVERItem was released by Customs and is now with Canada Post for processing._

 

Never mind..

 Peete.


----------



## moonboy403

The next batch is supposedly gonna be shipped out around the 5th next month. Guess how I know?


----------



## Bob Jones

Ordered the silver version 2 days ago , ships on the 5th . Much thanks for all the opinions on the sound .
 Thanks IPodPJ


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *moonboy403* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The next batch is supposedly gonna be shipped out around the 5th next month. Guess how I know? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Phrenology ? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Peete.


----------



## dallan

In reference to meeting with PJ last night at his house to mix and match amps and transports:

 I don't have a lot of time this morning and maybe post another impression later, very busy but i will post what i sent to John earlier since i can do it quickly

 John,
 Got your PM, gotta be quick I'm busy this morning, will post later on thread. Phoenix is beautiful and built like a rock. Sound is very good. SE I liked the Zana Duex better, he liked the Phoenix better but we both agreed it was in the same general league. I really liked the Zana better SE, the Phoenix sounded flatter and not as dynamic to me but still very good.
 Now balanced.....the Phoenix was much better, it was probably a bigger degree better than the Zana was better SE. The SE thing i could almost chalk up to taste and preference but the balanced was obvious.
 Gotta go,
 Dave

 I will add that balanced the Phoenix sounded more open and alive and made the HD800s generally sound like another animal. 

 Sorry i can't write more now, back later.


----------



## n_maher

I'm surprised that owners (and perspective owners) are so casually dismissing the fact that if they blow a fuse they will have to replace *the entire transformer* in the power supply.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *n_maher* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm surprised that owners (and perspective owners) are so casually dismissing the fact that if they blow a fuse they will have to replace *the entire transformer* in the power supply._

 

Couple things at work here. Most don't/didn't know it. 

 BTW I thought it was a fusible link by the pic??

 It's not a Power Amp, IF it's designed properly, it should never blow a fuse in ten of it's lifetimes. I've blown a lot of fuses, never on a Head amp or Pre-amp, Tuner, etc.

 .


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *n_maher* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm surprised that owners (and perspective owners) are so casually dismissing the fact that if they blow a fuse they will have to replace *the entire transformer* in the power supply._

 

Marantz and Phillips are another user of such transformers.......FWIW.

 Peete.


----------



## n_maher

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Couple things at work here. Most don't/didn't know it. 

 BTW I thought it was a fusible link by the pic??_

 

I was told by someone who spoke with Kingwa that yes, the entire trafo has to come out and be replaced. I'm only going based on that information which would appear to be legit. I sincerely hope it isn't the case.

 As to the issue of what it would take to blow a fuse, I'm less concerned about regular use and more thinking accidents which are bound to happen. Power in my neck of the woods fails more often than average I'm sure but power bumps (quick on-off-on cycles) have been known to pop a fuse here and there through no fault of the owner or man'f. If something like that occurs with the Phoenix it seems to me you're looking at major surgery and/or returning the unit for service which in this case is no small expense or amount of time. I personally like the approach of popping open a fuse drawer and replacing a $1 part on my own.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Marantz and Phillips are another user of such transformers.......FWIW._

 

Both of which I'm sure are more readily available to service gear than a company located half way around the world that is run by what seems to be a small group.


----------



## squall343

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *n_maher* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Both of which I'm sure are more readily available to service gear than a company located half way around the world that is run by what seems to be a small group._

 

I guess someone should feedback to kingwa to add a fuse next time

 nevertheless, audio gd offer warranty also..
 1st year is completely free including shipping

 2,3 years only need to pay shipping

http://www.audio-gd.com/Repair.htm


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *n_maher* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I was told by someone who spoke with Kingwa that yes, the entire trafo has to come out and be replaced. I'm only going based on that information which would appear to be legit. I sincerely hope it isn't the case.

 As to the issue of what it would take to blow a fuse, I'm less concerned about regular use and more thinking accidents which are bound to happen. Power in my neck of the woods fails more often than average I'm sure but power bumps (quick on-off-on cycles) have been known to pop a fuse here and there through no fault of the owner or man'f. If something like that occurs with the Phoenix it seems to me you're looking at major surgery and/or returning the unit for service which in this case is no small expense or amount of time. I personally like the approach of popping open a fuse drawer and replacing a $1 part on my own.


 Both of which I'm sure are more readily available to service gear than a company located half way around the world that is run by what seems to be a small group._

 

The only fuses I've ever blown in anything were a result of a direct relationship between alcohol and the volume knob on a power amp. I've _never_ seen a fuse blow otherwise. So as a percentage, I think the chances are exceedingly low. 

 So we have your data point, we have my data point, any body else had a fuse blow in Consumer Electronics gear other than a power amp??

 If I thought fuse blowing was much of a possibility for my future, this would concern me, but I just don't see it. I live where there are more Thunder storms than anyplace else in the US, my gear runs 24/7. I have an intimate relationship with the power company! 

 If it were a Power Amp, there was alcohol available, and I was allowed access to the volume control, yeah, definite potential problem!


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bob Jones* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ordered the silver version 2 days ago , ships on the 5th . Much thanks for all the opinions on the sound .
 Thanks IPodPJ_

 

I'm really pissed that Kingwa didn't mention this to any of us when we placed our order. I would have liked to have a silver version. Don't get me wrong, the black is gorgeous and looks very classy, but my DAC is silver and I would have liked the match.

 What I am going to do is ask Kingwa to sell me 2 empty black chassis with no holes drilled in them. I am going to have Kyle at RAM continue to upgrade my DAC even more and install it inside one of the Audio-gd case and drill the appropriate button holes so that I have an all matching system. Then I will have my SB Duet modded to the extreme and install that inside the other chassis, completely isolating the Wi-Fi section and the digital output section.


----------



## sandchak

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *squall343* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I guess someone should feedback to kingwa to add a fuse next time
_

 

This issue was discussed way back in the Compass thread, I had taken up this issue with Kingwa.

 1) According to him, he has been using this technology for the last 4 years in all his gears and he never received a single gear back for replacement of fuse.

 And then there is the One year free repair guarantee ( both way shipping included) 

 In any case, personally to me as long as any electronic gear is covered under some kind of warranty, its not an issue because there is no guarantee when piece of equipment will blow up no matter who makes it.. and also I think many will agree that Audio GD responds much faster half the world away from from China than the Multi National Corporation next door..

 EDIT : Well I just searched through some exchange of emails with Kingwa dating back to FEB 2009 :

  Quote:


 You are right,if the fuse break, the Compass must return to repair.
 If the power AC supply high than standard voltage 50%, in 5mins will break fuse. If high than 100% , in 20S the break the compass.
 Kingwa 
 


  Quote:


 All fuse in transformers, this can let the fuse feel the temperature of transformers, not only load current.
 In our last 5 years sale products, except shipping shatter, our products only have 0.5% had shatter, not one is break the fuse. Our transformers is very excellent and costly. Some Chinese buy our transformers replace some much coslty transformers and said our transformers sound much better.


----------



## DoYouRight

Interesting, did not know this could be an issue with my compass. I guess I will have to make sure my power conditioner is working.


----------



## glitch39

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Internal pics of mine, because people asked. The photography is a bit crappy because I had to use a slow shutter and narrow aperture, but I've uploaded 1920 wide versions._

 

I don't see the infamous internal thermal fuse on the trafo on these pics. compare the two:


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *n_maher* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I was told by someone who spoke with Kingwa that yes, the entire trafo has to come out and be replaced. I'm only going based on that information which would appear to be legit. I sincerely hope it isn't the case.

 As to the issue of what it would take to blow a fuse, I'm less concerned about regular use and more thinking accidents which are bound to happen. Power in my neck of the woods fails more often than average I'm sure but power bumps (quick on-off-on cycles) have been known to pop a fuse here and there through no fault of the owner or man'f. If something like that occurs with the Phoenix it seems to me you're looking at major surgery and/or returning the unit for service which in this case is no small expense or amount of time. I personally like the approach of popping open a fuse drawer and replacing a $1 part on my own.


 Both of which I'm sure are more readily available to service gear than a company located half way around the world that is run by what seems to be a small group._

 


 I suggest you read the warranty coverage that Audio-gd extends to all it's gear. 


 Peete.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

It's built into the coils from what I understand of Kingwa's email g and offers 2 types of protection (over current and thermal).

 Peete.


----------



## Yikes

I received my Denon AH-D7000's and oh my gosh! Stone cold non-balanced they sound amazing out of the Phoenix. I will be re-cabling them with a 4 pin XLR, but not for a few weeks. I have to make sure that they are working flawlessly before I chop the cable and void the warranty.

 That's it for new toys for me until at least Christmas.


----------



## haloxt

I think I should make one last impression of the Phoenix before promotional period is over. It does sound good and has a good price but like when I upgraded to the dac19mk3, I noticed it's the kind of audio equipment that is made to satisfy the hardcore audiophiles. People who just listen to music mainly as a recreational pastime or something to pass the time while doing something else (like me) would probably be satisfied with something along the lines of the compass or a portable setup. The Phoenix is something for people who are possessed with the dream of perfect sound reproduction.

 If, like me, your enjoyment of music does not primarily revolve around high fidelity (detail, transparency, realism, precise imaging, etc) then a less expensive amp may suit your needs good enough. Me personally am pretty satisfied in terms of musical enjoyment with the compass+HFI-2200+miscellaneous items, even though I know that Pro 900 combined with other audio-gd gear I have is MUCH more realistic, something like literally 3x more realistic. If high fidelity is your audiophile goal, consider the Phoenix, if like me you are a casual audiophile and just want something "fun" sounding I advise you not to get the Phoenix because you might get catapulted into the quest for hi-fi the same way I was when I got my Pro 900.


----------



## Edwood

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I suggest you read the warranty coverage that Audio-gd extends to all it's gear. 


 Peete._

 

Yes, but it doesn't cover the $100+ USD it would cost to ship the entire unit back to Audio-gd, vs. a simple user replaceable $1 part. In fact many amps include spares. 

 -Ed


----------



## santacore

Thanks for the refreshing perspective haloxt. You're right the Phoenix is not for everyone, especially if you don't have a really high end source to feed it, that's what kingwa has always advertised. I've owned the C-2C for months now and find it very enjoyable. In fact, it's only when I directly compare it to a better amp that I hear it's deficiencies. On it's own it great and leaves little to be desired.


----------



## Mik

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *punk_guy182* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Black is cool.
 Peete: Do you have any updated info regarding tyour shipment?
 I called Canada Post and I was told that mine was still held at customs and that I won't receive it before next week. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

My Phoenix was delivered today (in Toronto) but I won't have a chance to try it until tomorrow.


----------



## tim3320070

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Edwood* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes, but it doesn't cover the $100+ USD it would cost to ship the entire unit back to Audio-gd, vs. a simple user replaceable $1 part. In fact many amps include spares. 

 -Ed_

 

Year one includes shipping both ways...


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Edwood* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes, but it doesn't cover the $100+ USD it would cost to ship the entire unit back to Audio-gd.
 -Ed_

 

Yes it does. 

 Whoops Tim beat me to it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 BTW each R-Core is rated at 80W FWIW.

 Peete.


----------



## Lil' Knight

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Shipping to and from the factory during the warranty period IS paid in full by Audio-gd. _

 

I don't own any A-GD product but this is an A+ for their support.


----------



## grawk

Round trip shipping to china to replace a fuse isn't something I'd think was acceptable, even if it was free.


----------



## Yikes

In 30 years of using preamplifier's I have never blown, or had a fuse blow in a preamplifier or source. Fuses blow in amplifiers because of the loosey goosey speaker wire configuration. It's difficult to short out a preamp, that is unless you are doing things that you shouldn't. Yes, everything else considered I'd prefer if there were a line fuse in the IEC connector, but just because it doesn't I'm not going to go jump off of a bridge (Sorry to disappoint).

 In future production Kingwa should include a fused IEC connector. It would add all of a buck to the production cost. If the transformer is internally fused as he says it is I'm sure that it's safe, but having a line fuse that was easily replaceable would ease some users minds. As it is the lack of a line fuse doesn't change the fact that it's an amazing amplifier.

 If you are really concerned about it any of the skilled DIYers (Who are the ones complaining at the lack of a fuse) could easily whip up a Power Cable with an in line fuse, or build a fused power strip. Whatever.... It's not the end of the world, ......or is it.


----------



## IPodPJ

But there's obviously a reason he didn't put a simple fuse in there. I'm sure he feels it degrades sound quality. Why else would he not put it there? Surely it isn't because it would cost a few bucks extra. Look at what went into building this amp. It doesn't seem like he tried to spare any expense.


----------



## ServinginEcuador

Not sure if anyone read this, but some asked about it. According to the Audio-gd site:

  Quote:


 In short, whatever the input might be, Phoenix will output XLR signal to Headphones, unless your HP is plugged into to SE output sockets. 
 

So, even if you use a SE input you'll get an XLR headphone out. It might not be truly balanced, but might be worth a try!


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_But there's obviously a reason he didn't put a simple fuse in there. I'm sure he feels it degrades sound quality. Why else would he not put it there? Surely it isn't because it would cost a few bucks extra. Look at what went into building this amp. It doesn't seem like he tried to spare any expense._

 

I'm sure the way he is doing it is more expensive. The fuse issue is not really an issue at all.


----------



## Yikes

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_But there's obviously a reason he didn't put a simple fuse in there. I'm sure he feels it degrades sound quality. Why else would he not put it there? Surely it isn't because it would cost a few bucks extra. Look at what went into building this amp. It doesn't seem like he tried to spare any expense._

 


 Sorry, At some point some concessions must be made for safety and or serviceability. Besides if everything was for the best sound quality he wouldn't have used those connectors that he used for the CAST inputs, they're super crappy.


----------



## les_garten

You guys seen this?

http://www.audio-gd.com/enweb/pro/pre/P-2/P_2.htm

 .


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You guys seen this?

ÐÂ½¨ÍøÒ³ 1

 ._

 

Yeah, I did. Not bad for a little preamp. Price is excellent. Nothing like the Phoenix but still very nice.

 Have you seen the C-8SE? It's the C-3SE with a regenerated power supply. I asked Kingwa if we could use the regenerated power supply with the Phoenix and he said no it would destroy it...... but perhaps in 2010....


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Yeah I saw that Les...interesting little bugger 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I have to concur with Yikes...in all the years and all the various preamps I've owned (and currently own , 6 of them) I've never had one blow a fuse, tube or SS.

 You are correct PJ, Kingwa said the inline fuse at the IEC degrades SQ and he wasn't willing to do that FWIW. That was part of an answer I received today from questions I sent him last night.

 Peete.


----------



## moonboy403

How many Phoenix users are here? Any head count?


----------



## IPodPJ

Kingwa asked me to ask you guys something since he can't post here.

 "........can you ask the peoples who order Phoenix but still don't shipping, will they like to apply the RA IEC or the normal IEC inc the fuse sockets?
 Kingwa"

 "Phoenix use the RA ICE sockets, it cost USD10/per, it is plate gold. There are no any inc the fuse sockets
 If I replace the normal ICE sockets inc the fuse sockets inside, it only price USD0.1/per.
 The fuse built in transformers is much better and can offer better protect than the normal fuse.
 But if most body wish can have the IEC inc the fuse, I will please to do it, then save USD9.9 for me."






 I like Kingwa.


----------



## moonboy403

I guess I'll opt for no change. 

 What do you guys think? How much of a SQ degradation are we talking about if we switch to normal IEC fuse socket?


----------



## boomana

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *moonboy403* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How many Phoenix users are here? Any head count?_

 

I think there were 10 who got in on the round people are now receiving, if I'm not mistaken. Yikes posted a list up a few pages back.


----------



## sandchak

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Kingwa asked me to ask you guys something since he can't post here.

 "........can you ask the peoples who order Phoenix but still don't shipping, will they like to apply the RA IEC or the normal IEC inc the fuse sockets?
 Kingwa"

 "Phoenix use the RA ICE sockets, it cost USD10/per, it is plate gold. There are no any inc the fuse sockets
 If I replace the normal ICE sockets inc the fuse sockets inside, it only price USD0.1/per.
 The fuse built in transformers is much better and can offer better protect than the normal fuse.
 But if most body wish can have the IEC inc the fuse, I will please to do it, then save USD9.9 for me."





_

 


 There you go.. Thanks PJ !..
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I guess it wasn't a big deal anyways..

 Congratulations Boomana on becoming a Mod !!..


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *moonboy403* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I guess I'll opt for no change. 

 What do you guys think? How much of a SQ degradation are we talking about if we switch to normal IEC fuse socket?_

 

I'd agree. Kingwa hasn't let us down this far when it comes to sound quality, so why start questioning his judgment?


----------



## Yikes

The first batch of 10 shipped on June 21st 
 The Second batch of 12 shipped on June 28th


----------



## lmswjm

2 days transit from China, wow! Seems like Kingwa has addressed some issues: No sticky tape/sticker mess or fingerprints to clean up. Tape job was normal, no complaints. Cables, remote, etc. packaged nicely. No scratches or blemishes. Don't mind the mistakes on the back panel, (kind of like a blem'd baseball card) it unwittingly denotes earliest units produced. Kingwa has decreased the intensity of the display, it matches my other gear in the dark. Temperature is moderately hot with the units stacked, which doesn't worry me at all. Powers my SE D5000's well. 

 I definitely prefer the sound of the Phoenix over my RPX-33 in a quick comparison. Physical appearance inside and out makes the RPX look like a DIY project kit. Between the sound, appearance, and connectivity/versatility of this unit, I really feel like I have been given a gift for the money I paid. I also feel like there is more to this amp than the 5000's can reveal. Tomorrow I'll find out when my HD800's arrive.

 It's not all roses however, the preamp mode was stuck in the "on" position with the light also "on". This defeats the headphone function. I eventually corrected it by unplugging the data cable from the signal box and reconnecting it with the unit powered on. Kingwa hasn't responded as of yet.

 I can definitely recommend this unit without reservation. I was reading the Phoenix page about the Vol f'cn and saw that for July you can get it for $1200 with his upgraded power cord.

 BTW, I funded this amp with the sale of my Ed. 9's which makes it even a sweeter deal.


----------



## Yikes

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *lmswjm* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_BTW, I funded this amp with the sale of my Ed. 9's which makes it even a sweeter deal._

 

Not for the person who purchased them from you. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 welcome to the club, Enjoy.


----------



## IPodPJ

Yep, welcome to the club. As good as you might think it sounds SE, the Phoenix was designed as a balanced amp. Here's how I rate the scale from 1-10:

 SE in/SE out: 3 ------ 25% gain
 Bal in/SE out: 5.5 ------ 50% gain
 SE in/Bal out: 7 ------ 50% gain
 Bal in/Bal out: 10 ------ 100% gain


----------



## lmswjm

Ultimately I want CAST in and balanced out.


----------



## moonboy403

Anyone know if there's any difference in SQ between the 4 pin XLR headphone out and the two 3 pins XLR considering that they're both balanced out?


----------



## akg702

I ordered mine two days ago but I'm waiting for the new back panel till end of July. 

 I'm don't think I can live with a lettering error Phoenix. LOL. There are a few silver left but the new panel are all black. 

 Thanks for the first batch buyer for the contribution of pointing out all the error and improvement.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *moonboy403* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Anyone know if there's any difference in SQ between the 4 pin XLR headphone out and the two 3 pins XLR considering that they're both balanced out?_

 

There shouldn't be any AFAIK. The additional pin in the regular XLR's isn't used from what I can tell. I'm not 100% sure about that though.

 Peete,


----------



## moonboy403

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There shouldn't be any AFAIK. The additional pin in the regular XLR's isn't used from what I can tell. I'm not 100% sure about that though.

 Peete,_

 

I'm also asking Kingwa that question through email but I'm waiting for his response. So I'll let everyone know his answer.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There shouldn't be any AFAIK. The additional pin in the regular XLR's isn't used from what I can tell. I'm not 100% sure about that though.

 Peete,_

 

It can't be used for anything. The 3-pin XLR connectors on the headphone cable only use + and - for each channel. The third pin connects to nothing. There would be no reason why Kingwa would have any use for the third pin.


----------



## NiToNi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It can't be used for anything. The 3-pin XLR connectors on the headphone cable only use + and - for each channel. The third pin connects to nothing. There would be no reason why Kingwa would have any use for the third pin._

 

That's not necessarily true - the third pin can be connected to ground and provide shielding if your after-market cable is designed this way. For example, besides the + and -, your cable could have a mesh, a foil or another cabled coiled around the hot wires as a shield against RF and EMF, which should then be connected to ground in the amp end and simply not terminated at the headphones end. To use the third pin in this way is also the rationale for using 2 x 3-pin XLR rather than 1 x 4 pin XLR output.

 I really hope Kingwa has terminated the third pin to earth.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *NiToNi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's not necessarily true - the third pin can be connected to ground and provide shielding if your after-market cable is designed this way. For example, besides the + and -, your cable could have a mesh, a foil or another cabled coiled around the hot wires as a shield against RF and EMF, which should then be connected to ground in the amp end and simply not terminated at the headphones end. To use the third pin in this way is also the rationale for using 2 x 3-pin XLR rather than 1 x 4 pin XLR output.

 I really hope Kingwa has terminated the third pin to earth.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I do not believe my HD800 cable is designed that way nor do I think the other recablers do that, but I will ask Alex at APureSound if that's the case.


----------



## moonboy403

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *NiToNi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's not necessarily true - the third pin can be connected to ground and provide shielding if your after-market cable is designed this way. For example, besides the + and -, your cable could have a mesh, a foil or another cabled coiled around the hot wires as a shield against RF and EMF, which should then be connected to ground in the amp end and simply not terminated at the headphones end. To use the third pin in this way is also the rationale for using 2 x 3-pin XLR rather than 1 x 4 pin XLR output.

 I really hope Kingwa has terminated the third pin to earth.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

Ding Ding Ding, we have a winner!

 "Dear Gary,
 3 pins XLR output sockets is same with 4pins XLR sockets but the 3 pins have a earth wire connector, if your HP cable have the shield wires, you can connect to the Pin 1 of the 3 pins XLR sockets.
 Kingwa"


----------



## NiToNi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *moonboy403* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ding Ding Ding, we have a winner!

 "Dear Gary,
 3 pins XLR output sockets is same with 4pins XLR sockets but the 3 pins have a earth wire connector, if your HP cable have the shield wires, you can connect to the Pin 1 of the 3 pins XLR sockets.
 Kingwa"_

 

Good news that the Phoenix is configured correctly - but like IPodPJ said, it is then a matter of whether your HP cable is too. I'm curious what Alex's response will be since I have an order pending with him.


----------



## peanuthead

Is anyone going to be able to compare the Phoenix to other balanced amps, such as GS-X, HeadRoom BUDA, b22, etc?


----------



## JamesL

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I do not believe my HD800 cable is designed that way nor do I think the other recablers do that, but I will ask Alex at APureSound if that's the case._

 

Well, the stock hd800 cable is configured correctly and anyone knowledgeable should know to tie pin1 to shield. APureSound's cable I think are unshielded (conductor-teflon-twisted pair- cotton-sleeving). Most aftermarket cables are unshielded as a matter of fact.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *peanuthead* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is anyone going to be able to compare the Phoenix to other balanced amps, such as GS-X, HeadRoom BUDA, b22, etc?_

 

Well I heard the single ended B22 so now I have to hear a balanced B22. The SE B22 made by Ti himself sounded pretty good, but I preferred the Phonitor to it and now the Phoenix to every other SS. I just didn't care for the BUDA at all. Others loved it but with the Ultra DAC hooked up to it it just sounded way too digital and edgy for me. So I don't know how the amp would sound by itself, but I know I did not care for the combo. I would have loved to hear the GS-X but Justin didn't bring it. Keep in mind I tried all these amps with the HD800.


----------



## IPodPJ

Kingwa's young, Hi-Fi enthusiast workers:


----------



## squall343

as of now

 kingwa have 75 unit on order

·ï»Ë³õÕ¹³á(15Â¥Ê¼ÖÐÎÄÒëÎÄ)[î£Ö¾ÒôÏì¼¼ÊõÂÛÌ³]

 and since the quantity is more than expected, he mention that the final price will be lower than the 1.3k i guess


----------



## NiToNi

Couldn't the issue with a mislabeling of inputs 4 and 5 be sorted by a firmware upgrade that simply renames the inputs?


----------



## sandchak

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *squall343* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_as of now

 kingwa have 75 unit on order
_

 

75 in less than a month - sounds to me like the world economic crises is over !!..
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 PJ, thanks for the pix..looks like a nice bunch of lads (including Kingwa !!..) quite inspiring..


----------



## haloxt

Now that the promotional period is over, I'd like to answer the people who asked why the promotional period had to be so short that it wouldn't allow for much more complete impressions. It was because Kingwa originally wanted to give just the first ten buyers the greatly discounted price of $1000 and later set the end date to June 30th because he didn't want people rushing in without a clue. Although it was very generous of him to do this, I hope he doesn't do such a short promotional period again, because I think many people felt there was an attempt to coerce them into making a decision within a very limited time and it made people rather edgy and resentful and being rude to ipodpj. But if you decided to wait for more reviews and to choose to buy/not buy at a later time I think that's very wise, and luckily Kingwa has generously lowered the price and is now offering a bonus for buying sometime in the next month.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There shouldn't be any AFAIK. The additional pin in the regular XLR's isn't used from what I can tell. I'm not 100% sure about that though.

 Peete,_

 

Whether the #1 Pin is used depends on who cables your canz, and the type of wire used, and that person's cabling philosophy and level of Laziness. If you look in the Phoenix and REF1, you'll see that that PIN 1 is terminated as it should be. That's the shield PIN. Hot is Pin2 and Cold is Pin3. A cable commonly used for Headphones, like a Star Quad ala Mogami, Canare, or Cardas only has a quad and a shield. Since there is only one shield, you can't terminate PIN 1 on both plugs and is just Usually cut off. I am using DUAL Star Quad on my Cans. It has a Shielded Star Quad PER Channel. I terminate the Hot and the Cold, and the Shield on each 3 PIN XLR. I've never been interested in doing a 4 Pin because it seems less gear has it. I may make a Dual 3 Pin to 4 Pin adapter though. On the 3 and 4 Pin XLRs there is a Chassis Ground Tab that can also be used. So on a 4 Pin connector, you can solder the shield form the Star Quad to the Ground "TAB" that would drain to the Chassis Ground.

 So to reacp, on a 3 PIN XLR there are 3 PINS and a Tab. The threes pins are Shield, Hot, and Cold and the Tab is Chassis Ground.

 On a 4 PIN XLR there are 4 PINS and a Tab. L hot, L Cold, R Hot, R Cold, and the Tab is Chassis Ground. 

 When terming Headphone cables it is acceptable to connect the shield on one end as a drain, the component end. That's how I connect mine. The idea being that any RFI/EMI will be picked up by the shield and drained away as the Path of least resistance.


----------



## punk_guy182

So we're still better off with a 2 x 3 pin XLR than a single 4 pin XLR if it was cabled properly?


----------



## grawk

I think 4pin is still the best solution. Compact, has all necessary wires. No one uses a shield on a headphone cable that I'm aware of, but if you decide you want to, you can connect it to the shell ground tab. I have 4pins on my headphones, and have adapters for when I want to use anything else.


----------



## ServinginEcuador

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Now that the promotional period is over, I'd like to answer the people who asked why the promotional period had to be so short that it wouldn't allow for much more complete impressions. It was because Kingwa originally wanted to give just the first ten buyers the greatly discounted price of $1000 and later set the end date to June 30th because he didn't want people rushing in without a clue. Although it was very generous of him to do this, I hope he doesn't do such a short promotional period again, because I think many people felt there was an attempt to coerce them into making a decision within a very limited time and it made people rather edgy and resentful and being rude to ipodpj. But if you decided to wait for more reviews and to choose to buy/not buy at a later time I think that's very wise, and luckily Kingwa has generously lowered the price and is now offering a bonus for buying sometime in the next month._

 

This is not a unique practice among retailers. Some only offer a small amount of units at the reduced price:

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f38/10...re-amp-417185/ 10 unit limit here with orders taken THREE MONTHS before they shipped. No chance to hear, test, or read a review about it before plunking down your $5500.

 Some give a set timeframe to order, like a month here:
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f38/he...-price-413230/ Well, a month with a limit of 100 units.

 Not everyone is nice enough to give a discount on their products. Some announce their products and simply let us know they're for sale. Kingwa took a chance by giving us a timeframe without a limit on quantity. Pretty cool! 

 In the case of the Phoenix it was a gamble on an unknown quantity - new technology never before tried in a headamp. You either took the risk and bought at the intro price, or you waited until a few voiced opinions swayed you. The latter would cost you $330 if you waited for more than IPodPJ, Yikes and Currawong to say it was incredible sounding. 

 I for one am glad he both introduced this product and gave us a chance to be early adopters who got a discount.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *punk_guy182* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So we're still better off with a 2 x 3 pin XLR than a single 4 pin XLR if it was cabled properly?_

 

Don't think I would say that necessarily. The question is complex. It depends on the cable used and the equipment used. I use Dual quads with shields. So for my Cable I prefer, Dual 3 Pins. The best approach is to look at the gear you will be plugging into the most if you are using a Single quad. The idea for me would be to not use adapters for my main listening. If you listen to someone elses gear you may need an adapoter depending on the Path you take. It seems that "most" gear has Dual 3 pin. The Phoenix has both, very Kewl.


----------



## Yikes

I also believe that the 4 pin XLR is the best solution. I'm making a 4 pin XLR to 2x3 pin XLR's for when I want to try an amp that doesn't have the 4 pin connection.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I also believe that the 4 pin XLR is the best solution. I'm making a 4 pin XLR to 2x3 pin XLR's for when I want to try an amp that doesn't have the 4 pin connection._

 

For your situation, that makes perfect sense. I'm using a different cable, it has separate shields for each channel and I want to use them, so the dual 3 pin makes sense for me.

 The only other concern would be resell. It "may" be easier to resell a 3 pin vs a 4 pin termination, just guessing here. Although most likely, if you want to resell you should go back SE for a quick sell unless the Balanced end nets you some cash.


----------



## haloxt

I connected my cable's shield to the ground tab, now it seems like the sound signature is much like I remember SE being: less bass definition or focus, much more mids and highs, and more normal-sized soundstage. Before grounding the cable the soundstage would sometimes get humongous but now it seems its size is properly controlled just like it always was with SE. Btw I may be hallucinating all this, I would do a few A/B at least but I am not the kind of person who can resolder cables every few minutes for a test hehe.


----------



## punk_guy182

haloxt: Those are impressive changes in sound quality that you get by only doing a minor trick. Which do you prefer?


----------



## IPodPJ

How would you connect the third XLR pin to ground on the HD800 cable? It uses Lemo connectors which only have 2 pins and are on the outside of your headphone. Without opening up the HD800, I don't see how this is possible.

 But I do know what IS possible and I have asked Kingwa to make me an extra special sumptin'!


----------



## Yikes

The ground (Shield) is hooked up on the XLR end not the lemo end. As someone else said the shield is hooked up to chassis ground. It works as an anchor for RF noise.


----------



## grawk

And only works on cables with a shield. Most don't. The star quad cable that's popular for headphone recables on the cheap does, tho, until people strip it off


----------



## IPodPJ

My only complaint with this amp is just how hot it gets. I can't listen for long periods of time without my A/C unit off, at least not now in the hot SoCal summer, and it's noisy with the A/C unit on.

 Also the fact that it takes 3 - 4 hours of warming up before it sounds its best is another issue since I don't like having to wait so long before I listen, and I'm not going to leave it on continuously.

 But those are the sacrifices one must make to get the superb sound quality this amp offers.


----------



## haloxt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *punk_guy182* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_haloxt: Those are impressive changes in sound quality that you get by only doing a minor trick. Which do you prefer?_

 

I've only listened an hour with the shield grounded and changes appear slight, it seems the prominence and well-defined edges in lows has shifted to highs instead and the soundstage doesn't try to get too big now. For laid-back ambient music I think I'd prefer ungrounded because of how wild the music gets, but grounded seems to give a more accurate soundstage and a little bit more highs which is always welcome with my setup.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've only listened an hour with the shield grounded and changes appear slight, it seems the prominence and well-defined edges in lows has shifted to highs instead and the soundstage doesn't try to get too big now. For laid-back ambient music I think I'd prefer ungrounded because of how wild the music gets, but grounded seems to give a more accurate soundstage and a little bit more highs which is always welcome with my setup._

 

If you subscribe to what IpodPj just said about taking 3-4 hours to sound good, did you leave it on long enough? 

 .


----------



## punk_guy182

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_But I do know what IS possible and I have asked Kingwa to make me an extra special sumptin'! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Is that a secret or can you share this ''sumptin'' with the community.


----------



## haloxt

I had it playing for 2 hours before I turned off the Phoenix for ~15 min while I was soldering, then went back to playing. Something I think I notice is that the amazing separation between the two channels is reduced and blackness is a little less, will have to go back to ungrounded in the future to try to verify.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I had it playing for 2 hours before I turned off the Phoenix for ~15 min while I was soldering, then went back to playing. Something I think I notice is that the amazing separation between the two channels is reduced and blackness is a little less, will have to go back to ungrounded in the future to try to verify._

 

Let us know if it reverses and how you tested for the curious!


----------



## Yikes

Mine is sounding freaking fantastic It must be because it has been on and playing for 167 hours straight
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'm sure that it does take time to warm up and sound it's best. It didn't sound bad when cold (Except for that slight noise that did go away within an hour or so), so it's not like it is unlistenable until exactly four hours. Turn it on when you get home, and then start listening an hour or so later.

 The same is true of my Parasound JC1 mono's and it was true of every Krell amp I've ever owned. It is also true with my heavily modified Antique Sound Lab OTL/32. With my ASL I've even noticed that it sounds better after being on for a solid day. So I got in the habit of leaving it on all weekend.

 Once my Phoenix is broken-in my basic operating procedure will be that if I am going to be listening within a few hours the amp will be on. So basically Off at bed time and On in the AM (Weekends) or when I get home (Weekdays). The same can be said for my JC1's and my tubed DAC.


----------



## ztsen

Hi guys,

 Do you think is funny now they have the price USD1200+free exclusive power cable?
 The phoenix price is keep changing

 At first, before 30 June we should have safe 1330-1000=USD330
 If you order with power cord, USD1000+USD75=1075
 Now, new price 1200 only until end july, so the saving is only *USD125* instead if USD330
 What is the point of rushing before 30 June for the thought of saving $330? 
 Just doesn't feel right about their business style.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ztsen* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi guys,

 Do you think is funny now they have the price USD1200+free exclusive power cable?
 The phoenix price is keep changing

 At first, before 30 June we should have safe 1330-1000=USD330
 If you order with power cord, USD1000+USD75=1075
 Now, new price 1200 only until july, so the saving is only *USD125* instead if USD330
 What is the point of rushing before 30 June for the thought of saving $330? 
 Just doesn't feel right about their business style._

 

He had an Early Adopter Program $1000

 Then He has a Promo period $1200 + Cable

 Then he has the Normal price $1330

 What's hard to understand about that?

 He added the Promo period I'm sure because some folks complained about the short 1st period.


----------



## Hopstretch

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ztsen* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What is the point of rushing before 30 June for the thought of saving $330?_

 

Actually saving $330?


----------



## Yikes

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ztsen* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi guys,

 Do you think is funny now they have the price USD1200+free exclusive power cable?
 The phoenix price is keep changing

 At first, before 30 June we should have safe 1330-1000=USD330
 If you order with power cord, USD1000+USD75=1075
 Now, new price 1200 only until end july, so the saving is only *USD125* instead if USD330
 What is the point of rushing before 30 June for the thought of saving $330? 
 Just doesn't feel right about their business style._

 

You're complaining that he's extending some type of discount past the original June 30th date? By all means go ahead and send $1330 for the amp.


----------



## tim3320070

Yeah, better business practice is to charge full retail right off the bat.......I get it now. Discounting is just....bad.

 edit: Sorry for the smarmy comment


----------



## haloxt

I know what you're trying to say, ztsen, and I'm sure Kingwa would understand if people decided to cancel their order right now to wait until the end of July 30th before deciding if they want to place an order and pay the new $1200 (with free audio-gd power cable) price. Also to clarify it seems like $1200 is the new permanent price of the Phoenix, and if you order before July 30th it comes with the free cable. Imo it would've been best if the Phoenix wasn't sold for $1000 because that's so much less than $1330, $1125 would've caused less craziness on this forum.

 Also the less sound separation and less blackness from grounding my cable is probably due mainly to the smaller (or more controlled) soundstage hehe, both sound good though, but I'd certainly use ungrounded if I wanted to wow people.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I know what you're trying to say, ztsen, and I'm sure Kingwa would understand if people decided to cancel their order right now to wait until the end of July 30th before deciding if they want to place an order and pay the new $1200 (with free audio-gd power cable) price. Also to clarify it seems like $1200 is the new permanent price of the Phoenix, and if you order before July 30th it comes with the free cable. Imo it would've been best if the Phoenix wasn't sold for $1000 because that's so much less than $1330, $1125 would've caused less craziness on this forum.

 Also the less sound separation and less blackness from grounding my cable is probably due mainly to the smaller (or more controlled) soundstage hehe, both sound good though, but I'd certainly use ungrounded if I wanted to wow people._

 

That's an even better deal($1200). $330 was quit a bump and certainly was responsible for a feeding Frenzy about wanting to hear the impressions before the price went up.


----------



## Mik

Got my Phoenix unboxed and setup now without incident. It's currently setup like this:

 laptop (USB out) > Monitor01-USD (BNC out) > Ref1 (CAST out) > Phoenix (XLR out) > subwoofer and D-Sonic Magnum 1000S amp > speakers

 Sounds really good, more natural and a little less harsh than my (unbalanced) Emotiva preamp. I also have my Cambridge 840C connected to one of the XLR inputs on the Phoenix. Very happy with the Phoenix so far.

 The stickers didn't bother me. I quite like the LED display also. The only thing that annoys me is the remote control. The Phoenix is not able to receive commands from the remote at my listening position unless I hold my arm out at an awkward position. Even then it doesn't always register my volume changes. The remote itself is a nice solid piece of aluminum but it's not quite as nice as my Emotiva's aluminum remote. The remote is a minor complaint though and I'm sure I'll figure out the best way to use it before long.

 While I enjoy breaking-in my Phoenix, enjoy these quick pics I just took.


----------



## martook

Didn't kingwa say that the surprisingly large amount of orders meant he could cut the price a bit? Maybe he will stay at $1200 after July, but without the power cord, we'll see I guess. I've made my order, so I personally don't care anymore.
 People are funny though, no matter what you do, someone will complain. I bet some people will feel cheated if kingwa doesn't make it $1330 later on, like they have lost something on it then.


 I decided to wait for the fixed back panel. Good thing I have my... no wait, I don't have any other amp. Damn. :|
 Question is, should I go for the HD-800 or one of his DAC:s first (when I get some money again I mean)? Considering the pace he develops new products, it might be a good idea to wait with the DAC, maybe he'll release something even better than Ref1 at half the cost! *keeps hoping for that to keep my wallet from crying*


----------



## sandchak

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Mik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 While I enjoy breaking-in my Phoenix, enjoy these quick pics I just took.
_

 

Great snaps Mik ! now I am confused whether to go for Phoenix first or a SLR !!..


----------



## tim3320070

Man that looks nice!


----------



## Patu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Mik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Got my Phoenix unboxed and setup now without incident. It's currently setup like this:

 laptop (USB out) > Monitor01-USD (BNC out) > Ref1 (CAST out) > Phoenix (XLR out) > subwoofer and D-Sonic Magnum 1000S amp > speakers

 Sounds really good, more natural and a little less harsh than my (unbalanced) Emotiva preamp. I also have my Cambridge 840C connected to one of the XLR inputs on the Phoenix. Very happy with the Phoenix so far.

 The stickers didn't bother me. I quite like the LED display also. The only thing that annoys me is the remote control. The Phoenix is not able to receive commands from the remote at my listening position unless I hold my arm out at an awkward position. Even then it doesn't always register my volume changes. The remote itself is a nice solid piece of aluminum but it's not quite as nice as my Emotiva's aluminum remote. The remote is a minor complaint though and I'm sure I'll figure out the best way to use it before long.

 While I enjoy breaking-in my Phoenix, enjoy these quick pics I just took._

 

Looking good there. 

 Could you also provide some pictures of your whole setup? Or if you have them online, link them please. I'd like to see D-Sonic amps in action.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ztsen* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just doesn't feel right about their business style._

 

Get over it or don't buy from him. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 If you have been reading this thread you would know that he is a wonderful person to do business with and he basically does whatever you ask him to. Not to mention he will customize your amp for you -- FOR FREE -- if you ask him. He obviously screwed up with the stickers and scratches and I'm sure he learned his lesson from all the complaints he received. He will probably put up huge signs for his workers to remind them. But you have nothing to fear since you will not get stuck with a bad product or without a warranty.

 You say bad business practice? He sold a lot more amps than he thought he would so he lowered the price. He didn't have to say anything of the sort and could have continued selling the amp at $1330. But he did a very nice thing and also is including a free power cord which is awesome with the Phoenix, btw, for $1200. And that's bad business practice? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Someone will always find something to bitch about. This thread is evident of that. I don't think I'll ever give initial impressions on any promo period purchase ever again. Screw 'em. You get s*** if you do, s*** if you don't. Let them be the guinea pigs just as I was. No more freebies.


----------



## IPodPJ

Excellent photos, Mik.


----------



## h.rav

^ It looks much better that I thought


----------



## punk_guy182

Mik: Those are terrific shots and a terrific setup you got there. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 You're always welcome to give some impressions on the breaking-in process.


----------



## Mik

It's hard to articulate exactly how the Phoenix sounds better than my Emotiva preamp. It just makes me very happy when listening to it. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Being able to finally hear all my components running balanced might be contributing a bit to the excellent sound quality. Even after just a couple of hours of use of the Phoenix, I can finally say I am very satisfied with my setup overall. I've personally never heard better 2 channel. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I don't have any balanced headphones to test yet. I suppose I'll get some of my Beyers re-terminated later this summer.

 I saw there were a few comments on having to crank the volume all the way up on the Phoenix with single-ended inputs and outputs. For me, with CAST input from my Ref1, and XLR out to my amp, I'm finding that a volume setting of 13 or 14 is ideal. I think 15 or 16 is the highest I would use. Any much louder than that and it gets REALLY loud really fast. This is on the 70-step volume setting.


----------



## Mik

So volume 13 or 14 is good with orchestral music (which is generally recorded at quieter levels). I just tried some Coldplay and had to lower the volume to 5 or 6 since it's a lot louder.


----------



## n3rdling

If you're referring to these volume levels with your speakers, keep in mind power amp specs and speaker efficiency play an enormous role. Thanks for the pics, looks quite nice!


----------



## Lad27

From looking at the pics on previous page, I personally believe that overall look could be further improved if the case screws/bolts were countersunk and black anodised.


----------



## Yikes

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Lad27* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_From looking at the pics on previous page, I personally believe that overall look could be further improved if the case screws/bolts were countersunk and black anodised._

 

You're correct. I'm going to sell mine and order a new amp, only this time I'm going to have a series of Murals of a Wizard battling a Dragon airbrushed on all of the sides, now that'll be cool.


----------



## DoYouRight

Mik, this is a headphone amp! Get to the real magic of the headphones it was designed for and not a secondary possibility with speakers!


----------



## Lad27

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You're correct._

 

Thanks. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I didn't suggested such a radical move, but if dragons & dungeons tickle your fancy, why not?


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You're correct. I'm going to sell mine and order a new amp, only this time I'm going to have a series of Murals of a Wizard battling a Dragon airbrushed on all of the sides, now that'll be cool._

 

Yikes,
 The 70's is calling, they want their Van back!

 .


----------



## Townyj

It is really sad to see Kingwa cop flak like this! I bought my dac from him and it was a pleasure. Seeing as the pricing is changing, this amp could be a definite steal 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But im going to go with a B22 build that i have semi arranged with a fabulous member here.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Man those are nice pics Mik...thanks for that. Is that a Salamander rack ? You can adjust the shelf space height with that can't you ? 

 I think it's safe to say the looks from the page and in person are two very different things...some love it, some don't ...I'm in the former camp WRT that.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Peete.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DoYouRight* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Mik, this is a headphone amp! Get to the real magic of the headphones it was designed for and not a secondary possibility with speakers!_

 

Actually it's more preamp than it is head amp...the design is the 3SE full size preamp shrunk down and upgraded with V2 CAST modules...and then the head amp section designed into that circuit but the core is 100% preamp.

 Peete.


----------



## ztsen

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Get over it or don't buy from him. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 If you have been reading this thread you would know that he is a wonderful person to do business with and he basically does whatever you ask him to. Not to mention he will customize your amp for you -- FOR FREE -- if you ask him. He obviously screwed up with the stickers and scratches and I'm sure he learned his lesson from all the complaints he received. He will probably put up huge signs for his workers to remind them. But you have nothing to fear since you will not get stuck with a bad product or without a warranty.

 You say bad business practice? He sold a lot more amps than he thought he would so he lowered the price. He didn't have to say anything of the sort and could have continued selling the amp at $1330. But he did a very nice thing and also is including a free power cord which is awesome with the Phoenix, btw, for $1200. And that's bad business practice? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Someone will always find something to bitch about. This thread is evident of that. I don't think I'll ever give initial impressions on any promo period purchase ever again. Screw 'em. You get s*** if you do, s*** if you don't. Let them be the guinea pigs just as I was. No more freebies._

 

Hi IpodPJ, 
 Dont get me wrong. I appreciate your quick impression on Phoenix that save me few more bucks (but less now). I really don't find anything wrong to have the hype of your sharing. I believe all grown up here capable to know how to make a decision, perphaps you are not putting a 3 words of "Buy, Buy, Buy" like other forum I've visted before and you also not holding a title of Reviewer expert to require a high standard of your impression. I read it, I know you've more gears experience than me, and also majority who have the 1st hand of phoenix also no complain of the SQ and I take a shot. Actually we should have appreciate you adventurous of taking the 1st bite, in order for Audio-GD to correct their minor mistake in the packaging. So please don't stop doing it, so others can have better QC product later. lol

 The only problem is I am a cost-effective, bargain guy. Consideration also included the cost saving of USD330 (actually even more in Asia country currency). So just doesn't feel good if suppose to be A, suddenly became B. 

 In term of business practice, what I mean is if next time any offer from Audio-GD will give people impression actually no rush at all, always will think of promotion will be extend, that's all.


----------



## grawk

You'd have a better argument if you had to pay more than you thought. You paid a price you thought was fair. Others have to pay more now. If in 6 months, people are paying less than you, it still doesn't change what you paid.


----------



## IPodPJ

One of you asked earlier what I am working on with Kingwa.... well, I don't think he wants to add it to his product line but I am trying to convince him otherwise. Here is what I have asked him to do for me:

 I want him to turn the Squeezebox receiver into a very high end transport, way beyond what the Logitech Transporter can do -- and put it into the same style chassis as the Phoenix.

 Kingwa, Here is what you should know:

 -- I want the color changing logo on the front of the Duet to be on the front of the chassis. It is also a button for connecting to Wi-Fi. Very nice and clean like the front of the REF-1.
 -- I already have a regulated power supply for the Duet. You can remove it from the case and hardwire it directly to the Duet. (Or you can make your
 own regulated or regenerated power supply which is probably best.)
 -- I only need the digital output section, not the analog.
 -- You can convert the digital coax output to CAST maybe, if not, to BNC to go into your REF-1.
 -- It also has optical output but we don't need to include that if it degrades sound quality.
 -- You will need to upgrade the clock to something high quality like the Audiocom Superclock with PSU, or the DEXA Neutron Star, or if your reclocker is better in the Ref3 that works too.
 -- IEC input on the back of the chassis
 -- Please completely separate the Wi-Fi receiver section from the audio section and isolate both from interference. There should be an extended range Wi-Fi antenna inside the chassis. If this still degrades sound quality we can move the Wi-Fi section to a second smaller chassis. We will also isolate the Ethernet from the digital audio section.
 -- The Squeezebox only handles 16/44.1 but the Logitech Transporter handles up to 24/96, so we need to modify the squeezebox to accept 24/96 files.
 -- Perhaps we should include an optional upsampler that we can turn on and off, if it does not degrade sound quality going into the REF1 or other DACs.

 If anyone has any other ideas, please feel free to post them. I imagine it will take a few months to complete, but good things come to those who wait.


----------



## anadin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You're correct. I'm going to sell mine and order a new amp, only this time I'm going to have a series of Murals of a Wizard battling a Dragon airbrushed on all of the sides, now that'll be cool._

 

Nice piece of sarcasm there, I don't think the Aussie got it.


----------



## grawk

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_One of you asked earlier what I am working on with Kingwa.... well, I don't think he wants to add it to his product line but I am trying to convince him otherwise. Here is what I have asked him to do for me:

 I want him to turn the Squeezebox receiver into a very high end transport, way beyond what the Logitech Transporter can do -- and put it into the same style chassis as the Phoenix.

 Kingwa, Here is what you should know:

 -- I want the color changing logo on the front of the Duet to be on the front of the chassis. It is also a button for connecting to Wi-Fi. Very nice and clean like the front of the REF-1.
 -- I already have a regulated power supply for the Duet. You can remove it from the case and hardwire it directly to the Duet. (Or you can make your
 own regulated or regenerated power supply which is probably best.)
 -- I only need the digital output section, not the analog.
 -- You can convert the digital coax output to CAST maybe, if not, to BNC to go into your REF-1.
 -- It also has optical output but we don't need to include that if it degrades sound quality.
 -- You will need to upgrade the clock to something high quality like the Audiocom Superclock with PSU, or the DEXA Neutron Star, or if your reclocker is better in the Ref3 that works too.
 -- IEC input on the back of the chassis
 -- Please completely separate the Wi-Fi receiver section from the audio section and isolate both from interference. There should be an extended range Wi-Fi antenna inside the chassis. If this still degrades sound quality we can move the Wi-Fi section to a second smaller chassis. We will also isolate the Ethernet from the digital audio section.
 -- The Squeezebox only handles 16/44.1 but the Logitech Transporter handles up to 24/96, so we need to modify the squeezebox to accept 24/96 files.
 -- Perhaps we should include an optional upsampler that we can turn on and off, if it does not degrade sound quality going into the REF1 or other DACs.

 If anyone has any other ideas, please feel free to post them. I am going to call it the SBT-1 (Squeezebox Transport 1). I imagine it will take a few months to complete, but good things come to those who wait. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

That sounds like a quick way to an intellectual property suit.


----------



## DoYouRight

if he keeps it only for him it is a DIY tweak modification, but should definately not be sold unless he made his own from scratch item, yet again we are talking China here...


----------



## IPodPJ

I don't think legally he can SELL the Squeezebox itself, unless he had a license to. There are a quite a few companies that offer mods for all of the Squeezeboxes. Heck, Audiocom does it. I think the only way he could actually do it would be if people purchase the SB receiver and shipped it to him directly. But at this point he has no plans to turn it into a product line. I'm just trying to figure out if there's a way that he can, and if by modifying it to such an extent it is technically no longer a SB, even though it uses Squeezecenter.

 Once that is completed and I get a REF1 (and assuming I like the REF1), I think my headphone journey will be over for quite some time, unless a headphone comes out that beats the HD800. I can see no SS amp that I'd rather have than the Phoenix, and although I really love the way tubes sound with the HD800, I just know a tube amp would not nearly get the listening time the Phoenix does and it's the only SS amp I've heard with the 800s that I can say that about. In single ended configuration though, there are many wonderful amp choices out there.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *grawk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That sounds like a quick way to an intellectual property suit._

 

That's what I was thinking........

 Peete.


----------



## IPodPJ

So Peete, when is your Phoenix arriving? What's the latest word?


----------



## n3rdling

That'd be pretty awesome if Kingwa sold his own wireless music server thingamabob


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *n3rdling* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That'd be pretty awesome if Kingwa sold his own wireless music server thingamabob_

 

Yeah, it certainly would be. The functionality of my Squeezebox/CIAudio/Locus Design rig with my iPod Touch running iPeng software is just awesome. And in a few months, the digital output quality will be unlike any Squeezebox or Transporter in the world, so it prides me to know that.


----------



## Yikes

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *anadin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Nice piece of sarcasm there, I don't think the Aussie got it._

 


 Thanks, some people are lost without a smiley


----------



## ztsen

Sorry for silly question, do you think silver case have better heat disperse than the black since there is no extra layer of coloring?


----------



## JamesL

Heatsinks are usually anodized black. What does that tell you?

 I actually read an article that stated black anodized heatsinks dissipate heat better.. 
 I forget the logic behind it, but it seemed completely legit


 edit :  Quote:


 ....Radiation requires that the surface has the maximum emissivity of heat, and this means that its colour is important. Shiny gold anodised heatsinks might look great (if you like that sort of thing), but are hopeless at radiating heat. It's no accident that the radiator in a car, or the condenser on the back of a refrigerator is matte black - not chrome plated and shiny. Matte black heatsinks are the best for radiation, and will have a significantly better thermal resistance than any other...
 ~Rod Elliott, ESP


----------



## Drosera

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JamesL* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Heatsinks are usually anodized black. What does that tell you?

 I actually read an article that stated black anodized heatsinks dissipate heat better.. 
 I forget the logic behind it, but it seemed completely legit_

 

It's true, but it's a bit of a moot point. At the temperature levels of the Phoenix casing or anodized heatsinks, most of the heat transfer takes place by convection and not by radiation, so colour is actually not very relevant. (And I don't think an extra 0.1 mm of paint makes much difference either.)
 Having a fan in the room with the Phoenix still seems to be best cooling option on hot days.


----------



## moonboy403

On color: Darker colors are better absorbers of heat and hence better radiators of heat, but I really don't think it matters here.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Drosera* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It's true, but it's a bit of a moot point. At the temperature levels of the Phoenix casing or anodized heatsinks, most of the heat transfer takes place by convection and not by radiation, so colour is actually not very relevant. (And I don't think an extra 0.1 mm of paint makes much difference either.)
 Having a fan in the room with the Phoenix still seems to be best cooling option on hot days._

 

Don't tell me the Phoenix actually heats up the room considerably? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 At least non of my tube gear did.


----------



## Drosera

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *moonboy403* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Don't tell me the Phoenix actually heats up the room considerably? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 At least non of my tube gear did._

 

I don't know, I don't have a Phoenix myself (yet). However, I don't notice any significant effect of the Reference One on room temperature. That said, I've seen plenty of people complain on this forum that they can't use tube amps or Class A SS amps because they heat up their rooms too much. Probably rather depends on both the size of the room and the local climate.


----------



## moonboy403

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Drosera* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't know, I don't have a Phoenix myself (yet). However, I don't notice any significant effect of the Reference One on room temperature. That said, I've seen plenty of people complain on this forum that they can't use tube amps or Class A SS amps because they heat up their rooms too much. Probably rather depends on both the size of the room and the local climate._

 

Are you waiting for the next batch that should be shipped out on the 5th?


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *moonboy403* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_On color: Darker colors are better absorbers of heat and hence better radiators of heat, but I really don't think it matters here.

 Don't tell me the Phoenix actually heats up the room considerably? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 At least non of my tube gear did._

 

Gary,
 I've stated this several times. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It radiates an enormous amount of heat. Even with my A/C running full blast behind it I notice how much warmer my room is (approx. 400 sq. ft.) and how much harder it is to cool off. Without an A/C unit running in the summertime, forget about it. I couldn't handle it. That's why I know that my best listening sessions will be in the fall and winter when it is the coolest here in SoCal and I can have the air off so it will be quiet.

 But I'm a sweat hog. I must have a cool to cold room. Anyone who shared the room with me at CanJam and watched me set up my gear probably knows this because I had a towel around my neck and was dripping sweat. I need to get in better shape.


----------



## moonboy403

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Gary,
 I've stated this several times. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 It radiates an enormous amount of heat. Even with my A/C running full blast behind it I notice how much warmer my room is (approx. 400 sq. ft.) and how much harder it is to cool off. Without an A/C unit running in the summertime, forget about it. I couldn't handle it. That's why I know that my best listening sessions will be in the fall and winter when it is the coolest here in SoCal and I can have the air off so it will be quiet._

 

My god! I knew you said it runs hot, but I just never expected that it'll run hotter than tubes overall.


----------



## Drosera

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *moonboy403* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Are you waiting for the next batch that should be shipped out on the 5th? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I wish... No, I'm just waiting for my nightly leprechaun-hunts to be succesful first.


----------



## IPodPJ

Gary,
 Dave came over with his Zana Deux. The Phoenix easily feels twice as hot if not 3 times as hot.


----------



## Cobold

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yep, welcome to the club. As good as you might think it sounds SE, the Phoenix was designed as a balanced amp. Here's how I rate the scale from 1-10:

 SE in/SE out: 3 ------ 25% gain
 Bal in/SE out: 5.5 ------ 50% gain
 SE in/Bal out: 7 ------ 50% gain
 Bal in/Bal out: 10 ------ 100% gain_

 

This statement sounds quite worrying.
 Would more expect a difference between 9.3 and 10 in this scale.
 Evern the compass I would think as a 5 on this scale.
 3 would be more bad than good.
 I have SE Source and don't want to change all headphones to balanced.
 So I am really not sure if Phoenix can be the right decision.
 The 25% gain worries me. and 3 of 10 would be only 30% quality.
 Ipodpj can you please qualify your impressions on this a little more.


----------



## TCM

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ Quote:


  Originally Posted by *grawk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
That sounds like a quick way to an intellectual property suit.

 

That's what I was thinking........

 Peete._

 

Is there a difference between this and for instance the SB+? The SB+ is even listed in the Slim Devices wiki (called the Hi-Fi SqueezeBox).

At-Tunes: Audio
PluginMods - SqueezeboxWiki


----------



## IPodPJ

Hi Cobold,
 I do not mean that 3 means it is terrible. I just rated it for my preference on a scale of 1 to 10, with 1 being average SE quality, and 10 being best balanced quality. Honestly, if you have a SE source and you are using SE headphones, I don't think the Phoenix is for you, even though it is better than average. However for the price it still might be better than most anything you may find. I think the Zana Deux was slightly better (but much more expensive), and there are many solid state and tube amps to choose from. The B22 would be a very nice SE amp but is also much more expensive to build.

 If you know you will eventually go balanced than you should definitely buy the amp. But if you plan on staying single ended, there are other options you may want to look at first.


----------



## ztsen

not sure if put those cpu heatsink on the power unit will help to reduce the heat?


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *TCM* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is there a difference between this and for instance the SB+? The SB+ is even listed in the Slim Devices wiki (called the Hi-Fi SqueezeBox).

At-Tunes: Audio
PluginMods - SqueezeboxWiki_

 

Very cool! Now try to imagine that but with even more goodies including upgraded caps and resistors throughout, minimizing signal paths, possibly utilizing CAST, upsampling ability to 96 or 192, native 24/96 support, very high quality transformers, regulated (and possibly regenerated) power supply, isolated Wi-Fi section (or we may just kill it all together if it impact sound quality), removing the analog section from the signal path leaving only the digital output, 1 coax and 1 BNC output (possibly even a dedicated I2S output), all contained in the same style chassis as the Phoenix... and that's what Kingwa is researching for me.


----------



## Currawong

Regarding balanced: The same thing I've said to people considering the Reference 1, which, like the Phoenix, is most worth it if you have a balanced rig already, or are planning to get one.


----------



## Townyj

Depending where you source your B22... Getting a 2 channel/Single Ended version made for $250US cheaper delivered, than the Phoenix. Also with high qual part's and machined face plate's isnt really that hard to find.... I should know as im having one built soon! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi Cobold,
 I do not mean that 3 means it is terrible. I just rated it for my preference on a scale of 1 to 10, with 1 being average SE quality, and 10 being best balanced quality. Honestly, if you have a SE source and you are using SE headphones, I don't think the Phoenix is for you, even though it is better than average. However for the price it still might be better than most anything you may find. I think the Zana Deux was slightly better (but much more expensive), and there are many solid state and tube amps to choose from. The B22 would be a very nice SE amp but is also much more expensive to build.

 If you know you will eventually go balanced than you should definitely buy the amp. But if you plan on staying single ended, there are other options you may want to look at first._


----------



## IPodPJ

I thought B22 cost around $1600 - $2000 from a reputable builder, or is that just for the balanced B22? Good luck with it. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'm sure it will sound very nice.


----------



## Townyj

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I thought B22 cost around $1600 - $2000 from a reputable builder, or is that just for the balanced B22? Good luck with it. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'm sure it will sound very nice._

 

Im quite sure the 3 channel B22 is up around that for pricing, not to sure if its SE or Balanced as i have no need for those i didnt really enquire 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Oh and im hoping it will be my last buy for a long time!! BTW my post wasnt trying to take any of the Phoenix's thunder, i thought you would like to know thats all.


----------



## Cobold

Hi IpodPj,


 I'm not much of a DIY guy.
 Zana Deux is too expensive.

 I tried a few amps already in the range of 250 to 1300$.
 Hard to get a little experience without buying to much stuff.
 One thing none of them had: I'd like to have a remote for the headamp. 
 But Sound quality definitely comes first.

 So question for me is: Is the Phoenix an outstanding SE amp in it's pricerange?
 Compared to corda opera i.e.

 Do I have to worry about the 25% of Power? Is this still enough or it feels weak?.

 As I think now eventually I would go to a balanced Audio-GD DAC if Phoenix convinces me
 but I would not change all the headphones.

 P.S.
 Audio-GD squeezebox is a great idea


----------



## haloxt

tim, you should try using the 99 step volume option over the 70 step one because 10/99 is lower volume than 10/70, so will give you more adjustability.

 That squeezebox thing is interesting, something I'd like to see Kingwa design is a harddrive-based transport kind of like the iriver h120/40's optical output, but I think the biggest difficulty will be the display interface and software. Right now I'm ordering parts to upgrade to 80gb h120 (quadruple the size ^^!), and harddrive space is getting extremely cheap. It would be cool if audio-gd could make an audiophile transport with upgradable harddrives, the ability to store/rip data from cd's, wireless, and computer, the ability to reclock like the Ref3, and with a convenient form-factor (ie display separate from box, remote, plug-and-play harddrives).


----------



## Yikes

I'm now listening to the Phoenix with SE input driving Denon AH-D7000's also SE. The amp is designed as a Balanced amp, that does not mean that it sucks Single Ended. It sounds fantastic driving the Denon's. 

 Kingwa's description of the amps gain is misleading. With the Denon's I listen at about 30/99, so there is MORE THAN ENOUGH GAIN SINGLE ENDED. Does it sound better balanced? Sure, but it's not a huge difference. That being said anyone owning a Phoenix will ultimately want to convert their best headphones to balanced, because don't we buy toys like the Phoenix to get the very best from our other toys.

 So I'd say that considering features, build, and sound quality that the Phoenix is more than competitive single ended. However it is even better balanced so most users will be compelled to Balance their headphones, and at some point consider balanced sources.


----------



## Currawong

Yikes: I don't think people were saying it sucks single-ended, just that you wont get its full potential just using it as an SE amp.


----------



## Yikes

No. Specifically Ipod has a tendency to overstate things, and his rating the SE @ 3 and fully Balanced @ 10 is misleading.

 Even all SE the Phoenix is more than competitive. The only real issue is that because it is better Balanced it will slowly pressure owners to convert over to balanced.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Gary,
 I've stated this several times. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 It radiates an enormous amount of heat. Even with my A/C running full blast behind it I notice how much warmer my room is (approx. 400 sq. ft.) and how much harder it is to cool off. Without an A/C unit running in the summertime, forget about it. I couldn't handle it. That's why I know that my best listening sessions will be in the fall and winter when it is the coolest here in SoCal and I can have the air off so it will be quiet.

 But I'm a sweat hog. I must have a cool to cold room. Anyone who shared the room with me at CanJam and watched me set up my gear probably knows this because I had a towel around my neck and was dripping sweat. I need to get in better shape. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

You people in Cali don't know crap about Heat!

 .


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *moonboy403* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My god! I knew you said it runs hot, but I just never expected that it'll run hotter than tubes overall. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

It doesn't.

 .


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Cobold* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi IpodPj,


 I'm not much of a DIY guy.
 Zana Deux is too expensive.

 I tried a few amps already in the range of 250 to 1300$.
 Hard to get a little experience without buying to much stuff.
 One thing none of them had: I'd like to have a remote for the headamp. 
 But Sound quality definitely comes first.

 So question for me is: Is the Phoenix an outstanding SE amp in it's pricerange?
 Compared to corda opera i.e.

 Do I have to worry about the 25% of Power? Is this still enough or it feels weak?.

 As I think now eventually I would go to a balanced Audio-GD DAC if Phoenix convinces me
 but I would not change all the headphones.

 P.S.
 Audio-GD squeezebox is a great idea_

 


 SE Input >> SE Output would work and Sounds GREAT. You will be high on the Vol scale. I totally disagree with the ratings by ipodpj here. This amp does not suck Single ended. This also gives you "room to grow" in reference to your source and headphones. I have listened to a lot of SE and some Balanced cans. The SE cans sound awesome on it. 

 I would look at this as a foundation that is very versatile on which you can build a system around.


----------



## moonboy403

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It doesn't.

 ._

 

I sure hope your answer is closer to reality than PJ's as I'm really not looking for a space heater!


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm now listening to the Phoenix with SE input driving Denon AH-D7000's also SE. The amp is designed as a Balanced amp, that does not mean that it sucks Single Ended. It sounds fantastic driving the Denon's. 

 Kingwa's description of the amps gain is misleading. With the Denon's I listen at about 30/99, so there is MORE THAN ENOUGH GAIN SINGLE ENDED. Does it sound better balanced? Sure, but it's not a huge difference. That being said anyone owning a Phoenix will ultimately want to convert their best headphones to balanced, because don't we buy toys like the Phoenix to get the very best from our other toys.

 So I'd say that considering features, build, and sound quality that the Phoenix is more than competitive single ended. However it is even better balanced so most users will be compelled to Balance their headphones, and at some point consider balanced sources._

 

DITTO! 

 Congrats on the New D7000s. I have the LA7000s that are Loaners from Lawton Audio I am listening to at present, and they are kicking Azz on the Phoenix in SE mode.


----------



## ServinginEcuador

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Cobold* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This statement sounds quite worrying.
 Would more expect a difference between 9.3 and 10 in this scale.
 Evern the compass I would think as a 5 on this scale.
 3 would be more bad than good.
 I have SE Source and don't want to change all headphones to balanced.
 So I am really not sure if Phoenix can be the right decision.
 The 25% gain worries me. and 3 of 10 would be only 30% quality.
 Ipodpj can you please qualify your impressions on this a little more._

 

To allay your fear I am running a Phoenix in my rig as I type. My normal listening, on a 99 step scale, runs between 35 (normal) and 50 (loud). 

 As for SQ: I'm running SE in and SE out, and it is a major improvement over the loaner B22 sitting behind me. The B22 is a great amp, and the last few days I spent with it were very enjoyable. But, once the Phoenix arrived and got warm the B22 has sat lonely, idle and untouched. It is going back to its owner to get some more lovin'. 

 I think that once the balanced cable I ordered arrives I might have a better handle on what Phil is saying. Right now I have no frame of reference to say just how much better it will get to the SE input and balanced headphones. Guess that after the meet on the 11th we'll have a LOT more opinions on how this amp sounds in various SE and balanced rigs by non-owners.


----------



## Cobold

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No. Specifically Ipod has a tendency to overstate things, and his rating the SE @ 3 and fully Balanced @ 10 is misleading.

 Even all SE the Phoenix is more than competitive. The only real issue is that because it is better Balanced it will slowly pressure owners to convert over to balanced._

 

Better gear always pressures to get the best out of it. Cables.. Source...
 That's part of the fun. Isn't it?

 Phoenix SE just has to take the competition to other SE to SE Headamp.
 ...and show superiority. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I hope the 25% power is misleading.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yikes: I don't think people were saying it sucks single-ended, just that you wont get its full potential just using it as an SE amp._

 

He's referring to ipodpj saying it's a 3 SE and a 10 Balanced. That is misleading at least and not in line with my experiences thus far.


----------



## Cobold

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_SE Input >> SE Output would work and Sounds GREAT. You will be high on the Vol scale. I totally disagree with the ratings by ipodpj here. This amp does not suck Single ended. This also gives you "room to grow" in reference to your source and headphones. I have listened to a lot of SE and some Balanced cans. The SE cans sound awesome on it. 

 I would look at this as a foundation that is very versatile on which you can build a system around._

 

I don't like to buy new amp every few months because I am not satisfied with what I got before. The Compass I got is not enough for me.
 I never had the chance to listen to some balanced cans yet. It's not really popular here these days.
 If the vol gets as high like compass on low gain it would be enough.
 I don't want to blow my ears and don't have any exotic headphone.

 With full balanced some nearly seem to have the difficulty of not having enough steps in the lower volume area.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *moonboy403* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I sure hope your answer is closer to reality than PJ's as I'm really not looking for a space heater! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

You don't have to hope.

 I have a Tube amp setting next to it. The surface temp of the Tubes runs about 275 -350 depending on the tubes in play. The Tube Chassis temp runs 158-170F. The hottest spot on the Phoenix is running 114F now and the rest is around 105F. I'm not guessing here, I shot the temps. Pink Noise is running thru it right now and when I'm not listening to it. The Pink noise is why it is as hot as it is at present. Just Music doesn't seem to get it this high. Mine has been running 7 days straight.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Cobold* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Better gear always pressures to get the best out of it. Cables.. Source...
 That's part of the fun. Isn't it?

 Phoenix SE just has to take the competition to other SE to SE Headamp.
 ...and show superiority. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I hope the 25% power is misleading._

 

The 25% Power is dead on. Thta's what it is.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ServinginEcuador* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_To allay your fear I am running a Phoenix in my rig as I type. My normal listening, on a 99 step scale, runs between 35 (normal) and 50 (loud). 

 As for SQ: I'm running SE in and SE out, and it is a major improvement over the loaner B22 sitting behind me. The B22 is a great amp, and the last few days I spent with it were very enjoyable. But, once the Phoenix arrived and got warm the B22 has sat lonely, idle and untouched. It is going back to its owner to get some more lovin'. 

 I think that once the balanced cable I ordered arrives I might have a better handle on what Phil is saying. Right now I have no frame of reference to say just how much better it will get to the SE input and balanced headphones. Guess that after the meet on the 11th we'll have a LOT more opinions on how this amp sounds in various SE and balanced rigs by non-owners._

 

Could you elucidate on the differences between the B22 and the Phoenix. There are Jillions of peple out there who will want to know how it stacks up against the B22.


----------



## Yikes

If it is Biased pure class A the type and level of the signal that is running would not effect the operating temperature. Either it's not Pure Class A or you have a vivid imagination


----------



## tim3320070

So, to summarize what several people have stated (numerous times) so we can stop the posts from those not reading this from the beginning (it's getting old):

 -The amp is fairly, typically hot but not excessive and not an issue to be concerned about (unless you live in Central America, in a closet, with no A/C)
 -The amp is plenty loud enough in SE-SE mode and sounds very good this way
 -Balanced in/out is the highest gain and the best SQ possible from it
 -There are no stickers on the front anymore (apparently)
 -The new back plate ships at the end of July
 -The only promotion for July is the free (and good) AGD power cord
 -Price is now $1200, maybe forever, maybe not- this is a good thing!
 -Everyone posted seems to love it

 Please correct me on anything incorrectly stated.


----------



## grawk

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tim3320070* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 -The amp is fairly, typically hot but not excessive and not an issue to be concerned about (unless you live in Central America, in a closet, with no A/C)
 Please correct me on anything incorrectly stated._

 

I'd say this is incorrectly stated. I'd say it's dangerously hot unless you take special care to make sure it's in a well ventillated area with good air movement.


----------



## Yikes

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The 25% Power is dead on. That's what it is._

 

I think what people don't understand is that 25% of the power does not mean that the amp can only play 1/4 as loud. 50% of the power means that the acoustic output would be 3db less, so that 25% of the power means that the output would be down 6db, Were talking about an amp that can put out enough to blow your brains out, subtract 6db from that and it'll still play loud enough to screw up your hearing.

 Single Ended output is not an issue.


----------



## grawk

Gain (volume) and power (wattage) are separate issues. You can have a gain of 16 and a power of 1/4 watt, or a gain of 1 and power of 28 watts. The 1/4 watt will get louder 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 (in general, not on the phoenix, I have no idea what the power output is on the phoenix)


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Cobold* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't like to buy new amp every few months because I am not satisfied with what I got before. The Compass I got is not enough for me.
 I never had the chance to listen to some balanced cans yet. It's not really popular here these days.
 If the vol gets as high like compass on low gain it would be enough.
 I don't want to blow my ears and don't have any exotic headphone.

 With full balanced some nearly seem to have the difficulty of not having enough steps in the lower volume area._

 

I thin k you have a misunderstanding of what is happening here, or difficulty expressing it.

 A SE input is at a lower level than a CAST input or a XLR input. That Roughly cuts the output level in half. The SE output only utilizes 1/2 of the amp channels, so the output is cut in Half for a SE headphone. SO SE Input and SE Output results in approx. 25% output to canz.

 What this gets you is a splendid sound that if you are using the 99 steps and listening to say 80 OHM Beyers will put you up around 60-80 for VERY LOUD listening levels. You CAN MAX it out. But you'll be deaf SOON. It also has Zero distortion, so you CAN actually max this thing out and it sounds awesome. Distortion products will not limit your use of the Loud knob like in other amps.

 If you Go Balanced Input and Keep Single ended Output, the Output levels go way up and now you're at 50 for VERY Loud listening on SE canz. This would be 50% output level.

 Balanced in >> Balanced Out 100%. 

 That's how the numbers work out. There are so many steps to the Volume control in either mode that the granularity of Volume adjustment feels infinite and is a finer control than a volume POT can give effectively. But I think this is not what you meant by not enough steps t the Vol control.

 As far as comparing to Compass Low Gain setting. SE >> SE gets a little louder on the Phoenix, and is a Ton clearer and less distorted. This amp is so clean and black, you can crank it up so high and listen to it, that it should have a warning label on it. Maybe the Vol knob should Glow Red when it's over 50.


----------



## Yikes

To put it into perspective the Phoenix run about as hot as my Dirctv DVR box. This means hotter than I would like, but with proper consideration for ventilation it's not an issue.

 Proper Considerations
 Don't install in a sealed cabinet.
 Don't stack other equipment on or below it (I have them side by side).
 Don't put things on it (CD Cases, Paper, Fire Works, TNT ect.)

 One good thing is that it does run Hot, not warm. Warm encourages cats to lie on electronics, hot keeps them off. I can't tell you the efforts that I went through to keep my Cats off of my Krell preamps (Ive had KRC-3, KRC-3, KRC-HR, KCT). Now I don't have any cats, but from experience they love warm equipment.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If it is Biased pure class A the type and level of the signal that is running would not effect the operating temperature. Either it's not Pure Class A or you have a vivid imagination
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I understand it doesn't make sense. I just noticed it runs warmer running Pink noise. Anecdotal observation, not evidence. May be some other factor not obvious.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_To put it into perspective the Phoenix run about as hot as my Dirctv DVR box. This means hotter than I would like, but with proper consideration for ventilation it's not an issue.

 Proper Considerations
 Don't install in a sealed cabinet.
 Don't stack other equipment on or below it (I have them side by side).
 Don't put things on it (CD Cases, Paper, Fire Works, TNT ect.)

 One good thing is that it does run Hot, not warm. Warm encourages cats to lie on electronics, hot keeps them off. I can't tell you the efforts that I went through to keep my Cats off of my Krell preamps (Ive had KRC-3, KRC-3, KRC-HR, KCT). Now I don't have any cats, but from experience they love warm equipment._

 

I've found a well placed 44 Magnum round will remove a Cat from an Oracle Turntable without scratching the dust cover. It also cuts down on further instances of said problem...

 Try it sometime and post your results.


----------



## Cobold

Thanks you for explaining Les.
 So this is the same for every balanced amp?


----------



## grawk

not every balanced amp can be used single ended


----------



## D_4_Dog

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ServinginEcuador* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_As for SQ: I'm running SE in and SE out, and it is a major improvement over the loaner B22 sitting behind me. The B22 is a great amp, and the last few days I spent with it were very enjoyable. But, once the Phoenix arrived and got warm the B22 has sat lonely, idle and untouched. It is going back to its owner to get some more lovin'._

 

Would you mind elaborating on this a little? eg 3-board? what kind of power supply/seperate power supply? if it's a more expensive B22 build then this is certainly good news because that means I don't have to drool over a 4-board balanced B22 anymore 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 PS. post #333.... i'm half evil now... woohoo!


----------



## tim3320070

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've found a well placed 44 Magnum round will remove a Cat from an Oracle Turntable without scratching the dust cover. It also cuts down on further instances of said problem...

 Try it sometime and post your results._

 

You would like this book: Amazon.com: 101 Uses for a Dead Cat: Simon Bond: Books.
 My favorite was "boat anchor"


----------



## Yikes

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've found a well placed 44 Magnum round will remove a Cat from an Oracle Turntable without scratching the dust cover. It also cuts down on further instances of said problem...

 Try it sometime and post your results._

 

Been there, done that.

 I do have one of these:






 But for Cats I have one of these it works better:


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Cobold* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks you for explaining Les.
 So this is the same for every balanced amp?_

 

I think you could say that the principles are the same. MOST/Some Balanced Gear will not let you take a SE input to a balanced output. The Phoenix is unusal in that everything connects to everything else. But Balanced and SE on the same amp are Always/Usually a 2:1 power differential. I'm trying not to use absolutes because someone will mention some esoteric amp that does something strange. But in general, they all work this way.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Been there, done that.

 <<SNIP>>_

 

@TIM That Book does look entertaining, and it looks like one could put it to good use.

 To remove a cat from a Turbo Charged 911, one has to be a little more precise and here is my recommended instrument of extraction.

 >>




 >>
 >>

 I'm not a Huge cat fan...

 .


----------



## tim3320070

Jesus, those are a bit much!


----------



## Yikes

I like cats. The 17HMR now has a Bushnell Scope on it, very accurate! it's more humane that way
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Kidding, the 17HMR with a scope is used to Kill Ground Hogs on a Farm. Ground Hogs dig holes that can break a tractors axles, or worst case flip the tractor and kill the driver.

 Back on track. The Phoenix RULES!


----------



## Drosera

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Back on track. The Phoenix RULES!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

That's just your 'honeymoon impression'!


----------



## Yikes

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Drosera* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's just your 'honeymoon impression'! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

 True, but I am up to 189 hour of continuous play, and if anything I am more enamored of the freaking thing.


----------



## fdhfdy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_@TIM That Book does look entertaining, and it looks like one could put it to good use.

 To remove a cat from a Turbo Charged 911, one has to be a little more precise and here is my recommended instrument of extraction.

 >>




 >>
 >>

 I'm not a Huge cat fan...

 ._

 






.My dad would like this much better than my head-amps


----------



## Drosera

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_True, but I am up to 189 hour of continuous play, and if anything I am more enamored of the freaking thing._

 

This could be the beginning of a long and happy marriage. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Certainly plenty of warmth there, I hear.


----------



## ztsen

If I only have SE input, is there any SQ improvement if I mod the D5k SE to XLR using Audio-gd HP mod kit? 

 Anyone has done the HP mod kit? how difficult of the soldering work? I am new to soldering.

 Will not have a balance dac for sometime. Would like to hear more impression of which DAC match well with phoenix.


----------



## Yikes

There are absolutely reasons to Balance your headphones even though you are only using a SE input. The SE input is converted to a balanced signal and then goes through the entire balanced amplification path. If you balance your headphones you are taking advantage of all of the balanced amplification. If you are running your headphones SE you're only using 1/2 of the amplifier circuitry.

 The only real advantage to having a balanced source is that you avoid the conversion to balanced at the SE input. The conversion can be done in one of several ways, transformer, or phase inverter. Any and every conversion is a chance for errors or distortions to be introduced.

 I already have the connectors to balance my new Denon AH-D7000's. I am going to wait until I have about 200 hours on them to make sure that there are no problems with them. Once I chop the the warranty is voided.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You people in Cali don't know crap about Heat!

 ._

 

Excuse me? I'm originally from Miami, Florida so don't tell me I don't know about heat. It gets much hotter here than it does in Florida. You guys just have more humidity. It gets up to 115 in the summer here.


----------



## ztsen

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There are absolutely reasons to Balance your headphones even though you are only using a SE input. The SE input is converted to a balanced signal and then goes through the entire balanced amplification path. If you balance your headphones you are taking advantage of all of the balanced amplification. If you are running your headphones SE you're only using 1/2 of the amplifier circuitry.

 The only real advantage to having a balanced source is that you avoid the conversion to balanced at the SE input. The conversion can be done in one of several ways, transformer, or phase inverter. Any and every conversion is a chance for errors or distortions to be introduced.

 I already have the connectors to balance my new Denon AH-D7000's. I am going to wait until I have about 200 hours on them to make sure that there are no problems with them. Once I chop the the warranty is voided._

 

Thanks for the info. My D5k already mod, so not an issue for me to mod the cable as well.


----------



## grawk

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Excuse me? I'm originally from Miami, Florida so don't tell me I don't know about heat. It gets much hotter here than it does in Florida. You guys just have more humidity. It gets up to 115 in the summer here._

 

You love your hyperbole, don't you? Los Angeles isn't death valley.


----------



## IPodPJ

That's really good to know, Doug. Thank you for those comparisons. Finally we have a side by side B22 comparison. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 And do those who are taking my words out of context, I did not say the Phoenix sucks as a SE amp. (If I give it too much praise, it's not good. If I say something else is better, it's not good. I can't win here.) I said Dave and I both felt the Zana Deux was better with my RAM DL3/HD800 but it is also a $2300 amp. To say that the Phoenix smokes it balanced when the Phoenix is only $1200 just makes it an absolutely incredible purchase. And yes, SE in/SE out is still better than the Opera was.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *moonboy403* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I sure hope your answer is closer to reality than PJ's as I'm really not looking for a space heater! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Guess you'll find out soon.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *grawk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You love your hyperbole, don't you? Los Angeles isn't death valley._

 

I don't live in the city of Los Angeles. The city of Los Angeles is 20 - 30 degrees cooler than here. I live in Chatsworth in the San Fernando Valley. If you think I'm bulls***ing, go pull the records for the past few summers and look at the temperatures here. It gets between 105 - 115. I've lived in the SFV for most of my life so I'm quite aware of this.

 Now my grandfather lives in Palm Desert, it gets up to 122 there.

 I love how everyone knows everything about someone else's situation.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_@TIM That Book does look entertaining, and it looks like one could put it to good use.

 To remove a cat from a Turbo Charged 911, one has to be a little more precise and here is my recommended instrument of extraction.

 >>




 >>
 >>

 I'm not a Huge cat fan...

 ._

 


 A bit too much caliber for the quarry but I love rifles with scopes (this one looks good for moose !) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Thumbs up on the pool but how do you patch the holes the rounds make in the screens when the occasional cat entertains the thought (it's last one BTW) of an unauthorized incursion (presumably to settle down for a nap on your amp) ? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Peete.

 PS: PJ my amp won't get here till next week by the looks of things.........I'd be very surprised if it showed Friday afternoon but very happy if it did. In the meantime I'm waiting patiently.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's really good to know, Doug. Thank you for those comparisons. Finally we have a side by side B22 comparison. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 And do those who are taking my words out of context, I did not say the Phoenix sucks as a SE amp. (If I give it too much praise, it's not good. If I say something else is better, it's not good. I can't win here.) I said Dave and I both felt the Zana Deux was better with my RAM DL3/HD800 but it is also a $2300 amp. To say that the Phoenix smokes it balanced when the Phoenix is only $1200 just makes it an absolutely incredible purchase. And yes, SE in/SE out is still better than the Opera was._

 

You made a table where SE >>SE was rated a 3 and Bal >> Bal was rated a 10. That's what has been confusing some people. They are looking at it like it's an absolute scale. You didn't explain it when you had the chance earlier today. So, some folks read it and made an Interpretation that you gave the Amp a rating of 3. I would say on a scale of 0-10 that would qualify as sucking! 

 I don't think you meant an absolute scale, but I also think you're over the top as a relative scale also. I don't believe that Balanced canz makes it 70% better. But one man's math is another man's BS, and so goes it.

 The point is, your Table of numbers started this. You should take the time to clarify and/or defend the numbers you stated.

 Ohhh, and I was just kidding about the temp, What! It was kinda a "California thinks if it is happening to them, it is the most important thing in the Universe kinda deal". And then there's your reply, Hmmmm.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_A bit too much caliber for the quarry but I love rifles with scopes (this one looks good for moose !) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Actually, it's perfect, the key is removing the Cat with no potential for scratches during the removal process!

  Quote:


 Thumbs up on the pool but how do you patch the holes the rounds make in the screens when the occasional cat entertains the thought (it's last one BTW) of an unauthorized incursion (presumably to settle down for a nap on your amp) ? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 


 For some reason there aren't a lot of cats around here anymore...

 Peete.

  Quote:


 PS: PJ my amp won't get here till next week by the looks of things.........I'd be very surprised if it showed Friday afternoon but very happy if it did. In the meantime I'm waiting patiently.


----------



## haloxt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You made a table where SE >>SE was rated a 3 and Bal >> Bal was rated a 10. That's what has been confusing some people. They are looking at it like it's an absolute scale. You didn't explain it when you had the chance earlier today. So, some folks read it and made an Interpretation that you gave the Amp a rating of 3. I would say on a scale of 0-10 that would qualify as sucking! 

 I don't think you meant an absolute scale, but I also think you're over the top as a relative scale also. I don't believe that Balanced canz makes it 70% better. But one man's math is another man's BS, and so goes it.

 The point is, your Table of numbers started this. You should take the time to clarify and/or defend the numbers you stated.

 Ohhh, and I was just kidding about the temp, What! It was kinda a "California thinks if it is happening to them, it is the most important thing in the Universe kinda deal". And then there's your reply, Hmmmm._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi Cobold,
 I do not mean that 3 means it is terrible. I just rated it for my preference on a scale of 1 to 10, with 1 being average SE quality, and 10 being best balanced quality. Honestly, if you have a SE source and you are using SE headphones, I don't think the Phoenix is for you, even though it is better than average. However for the price it still might be better than most anything you may find. I think the Zana Deux was slightly better (but much more expensive), and there are many solid state and tube amps to choose from. The B22 would be a very nice SE amp but is also much more expensive to build.

 If you know you will eventually go balanced than you should definitely buy the amp. But if you plan on staying single ended, there are other options you may want to look at first._

 

Also btw, he gave this answer quite a while ago and then people started getting on his back.


----------



## punk_guy182

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ohhh, and I was just kidding about the temp, What! It was kinda a "California thinks if it is happening to them, it is the most important thing in the Universe kinda deal"._

 

Yeah right! 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ztsen* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Will not have a balance dac for sometime. Would like to hear more impression of which DAC match well with phoenix._

 

I've read that the Reference 1 and 2 are a good match for the Phoenix if you are looking for something neutral and detailed. They both have CAST outputs also.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I live in Chatsworth in the San Fernando Valley. [...] I've lived in the SFV for most of my life so I'm quite aware of this._

 

Is that where they shoot pr0n movies? That must be a very exciting area you live in.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *punk_guy182* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is that where they shoot pr0n movies? That must be a very exciting area you live in. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Yes, it is. The San Fernando Valley, and specifically in Chatsworth, are where the majority of **** is filmed. But you would never know walking down the street or riding a bus, etc. That is all done in industrial parks or filmed in houses.

 Unlike grawk, you actually know something about where I live.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Also btw, he gave this answer quite a while ago and then people started getting on his back._

 

Right, but when you rate something a 3, or a 10, or whatever, be prepared to have to clarify/defend. If it's a 3, what are the other 3's. The 2.5s, the 2.0s, the 1.0s, etc, etc. Especially when you say that a mode is a 3 and another mode on the same amp is a 10.

 There's a reason why folks were confused. You own one, you think it is a 3 in SE mode?

 .


----------



## grawk

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Unlike grawk, you actually know something about where I live. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I know what you say in your profile, which is that you live in LA. So you exaggerated where you live instead of the weather, my bad. I can understand why you wouldn't want people to know you live in san fernando tho.


----------



## haloxt

les_garten, he already gave an explanation/clarification/defense of what he's said. And the only two of the four I've tried is SE in/SE out and SE in/balanced out, and yes I think his opinion coincides with mine there.

 And grawk, what's with all this animosity? You can understand why he doesn't want others to know he lives in San Fernando? How about stop trolling you won't get a special award for 10k posts.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ztsen* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If I only have SE input, is there any SQ improvement if I mod the D5k SE to XLR using Audio-gd HP mod kit? 

 Anyone has done the HP mod kit? how difficult of the soldering work? I am new to soldering.

 Will not have a balance dac for sometime. Would like to hear more impression of which DAC match well with phoenix._

 

I'll be tackling that job when the parts arrive (on a DIY cable I have sitting here ready to go).

 All in good time ztsen, all in good time. PJ's mini meet should be a wealth of useful info, so sit tight 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Peete.


----------



## punk_guy182

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *grawk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I know what you say in your profile, which is that you live in LA. So you exaggerated where you live instead of the weather, my bad. I can understand why you wouldn't want people to know you live in san fernando tho._

 

There's no shame in living in the San Fernando Valley IMO.
 PJ: Do you ever happen to pass by some hot pr0nstar once in awhile? How about having a chat with her in the bus?


----------



## Pricklely Peete

I doubt the successful (hot) ones ever take a bus PG 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 In Cali the car is king !!!!

 Peete.

 PS IMO I think Montreal has just as many great looking gals as anywhere else in the world ! Well maybe not South America but close enough. Man I miss Montreal and it's excellent folks....( I grew up on the West Island in Dollard Des Ormeaux).


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *grawk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I know what you say in your profile, which is that you live in LA. So you exaggerated where you live instead of the weather, my bad. I can understand why you wouldn't want people to know you live in san fernando tho._

 

Oh get off it. I didn't exaggerate where I live, I live in Los Angeles county. And I have no problem with anyone knowing I live in the SFV. Why would I? Because pr0n is made here? Puh-lease..... I always tell someone where I live when they ask. You didn't ask, you assumed.

 Punkguy: I used to take the bus for awhile but I don't anymore. I've seen one or two in the bus that I recognized from being plastered all over the web, and I've seen Tera Patrick (who's real name is Linda H., I won't post her last name) because my friend's girlfriend was friends with her and did her original resume photo before she got started in pr0n. But no, I've never struck up a chat with any of them. And of course there's no shame in living here, if you like the rat race which I don't, and you can deal with the heat which I hate. It is not obvious at all from walking around the valley that pr0n is made here.


----------



## tim3320070

Guys, I love **** too but......the Phoenix? Peete, didn't you just give me some crap for being off topic in the Ref-1 thread.....sheesh!


----------



## IPodPJ

Back to the Phoenix, everyone.

 I want you guys to confirm something that I have been suspicious of but didn't want to post about prematurely. In fact, I think it's a good thing but I wonder why it occurs at all: the sonic presentation is different between 99 steps volume and 70 steps volume. 99 steps is more laid back and smooth, while 70 is more upfront and aggressive. Of course, I've leveled the volume at both settings. I like the sound of each as they both offer equally enjoyable presentations. But they are different.


----------



## moonboy403

This is getting interesting now. So switching between steps is like tuberolling.


----------



## squall343

Look like kingwa is planning a cheaper version of phoenix

ÐÂ½¨ÍøÒ³ 1

 What is Roc:
 1，Roc is base on Phoenix design, it is trust balance design ,signal circuits and classis box style same with Phoenix.
 2, Roc apply 23 steps 4 floors volume pots , and apply one group class A PSU , all built in one classis box.
 3, Roc has gain balance control between RCA and XLR , so output level of RCA input is same with XLR input .

 Specification
 Dimensions: width 250mm, height 80mm and depth 360mm.
 Price: approximate USD800


----------



## n_maher

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_And grawk, what's with all this animosity? You can understand why he doesn't want others to know he lives in San Fernando? How about stop trolling you won't get a special award for 10k posts._

 

I would respectfully suggest everyone make an effort to keep their posts on topic moving forward. We don't want to have to call in the cleaners.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *squall343* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Look like kingwa is planning a cheaper version of phoenix

ÐÂ½¨ÍøÒ³ 1

 What is Roc:
 1，Roc is base on Phoenix design, it is trust balance design ,signal circuits and classis box style same with Phoenix.
 2, Roc apply 23 steps 4 floors volume pots , and apply one group class A PSU , all built in one classis box.
 3, Roc has gain balance control between RCA and XLR , so output level of RCA input is same with XLR input .

 Specification
 Dimensions: width 250mm, height 80mm and depth 360mm.
 Price: approximate USD800_

 

Does the man ever sleep????????? But what is "Roc"? I hope he didn't mean "Rock".


----------



## squall343

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Does the man ever sleep????????? But what is "Roc"? I hope he didn't mean "Rock"._

 

according to the web page

 the Roc is a mythological bird in China. When they are young , they are fish , but later turn into a bird that eats dragons. They can eat one king dragon and five hundred small dragons in a single day. They hunt dragons in the sea. When a dragon sees them, they are so stunned by fear that they can't even move to run away from being eaten.

http://www.audio-gd.com/enweb/Roc/Roc-1.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roc_%28mythology%29

 First Phoenix, then roc, what is next?


----------



## grawk

A roc is a mythical bird, similar to a phoenix only it doesn't die and get reborn from fire 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Checking out that page now, it looks interesting.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_And grawk, what's with all this animosity? You can understand why he doesn't want others to know he lives in San Fernando? How about stop trolling you won't get a special award for 10k posts._

 

I appreciate your support but why does everyone for some reason think I don't want anyone to know that I live in the San Fernando Valley?? Where the hell did all these assumptions come from??? Why would anyone even jump to these stupid conclusions and think I'm embarassed to live here? Just because grawk made some kind of issue over it?? I'm hosting the freakin' meet here. Duh!

 Get back on topic. This is ridiculous.


----------



## grawk

I apologize for making what I thought was a good natured jab. Moving on, the Roc does look interesting. If there's a decent preorder discount, I might have to give it a shot.


----------



## tim3320070

He is amazing......don't blink reading his product page, you'll miss something new.


----------



## Yikes

The ROC, Damn! and I wasted my money on a Phoenix.


 I wonder if I can get my ROC's off, I mean made with a Silk Screen picture of the ROC bird on it


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *squall343* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_according to the web page
 the Roc is a mythological bird in China. When they are young , they are fish , but later turn into a bird that eats dragons. They can eat one king dragon and five hundred small dragons in a single day. They hunt dragons in the sea. When a dragon sees them, they are so stunned by fear that they can't even move to run away from being eaten._

 

I hope the amp doesn't contain the same B.S. as that myth. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But seriously, it's amazing how Kingwa offers something for every price bracket. It looks like if you want 70%-80% of the Phoenix potential, you can get the Roc.

 Now did anyone see my post about the different volume steps or did you miss it because of all the B.S.? I'd appreciate any confirmations of my findings.


----------



## haloxt

I'll go test that out ipodpj.

 Grawk, I would've taken that comment as a joke except you've been going at ipodpj, he's probably going to have bad dreams where he sees a polar bear with a glass coke bottle correcting him on everything.


----------



## tim3320070

PJ, did you balance your D5000's, and if so, how do they sound with the Phoenix? I own them as well.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tim3320070* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Guys, I love **** too but......the Phoenix? Peete, didn't you just give me some crap for being off topic in the Ref-1 thread.....sheesh!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Sorry...yes I did.

 My apologies.

 Peete.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Back to the Phoenix, everyone.

 I want you guys to confirm something that I have been suspicious of but didn't want to post about prematurely. In fact, I think it's a good thing but I wonder why it occurs at all: the sonic presentation is different between 99 steps volume and 70 steps volume. 99 steps is more laid back and smooth, while 70 is more upfront and aggressive. Of course, I've leveled the volume at both settings. I like the sound of each as they both offer equally enjoyable presentations. But they are different._

 

The vol control difference is thus...one is logarithmic and the other is exponential in nature. I forget which is which but it's on the Phoenix page.

 Peete.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tim3320070* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_PJ, did you balance your D5000's, and if so, how do they sound with the Phoenix? I own them as well._

 

No, I did not balance them.


 Wow, I am so loving the 70 steps volume selection. It makes the 99 steps seems so laid back and lacking in midrange and bass in comparison. With 70 steps, you are front row center but the soundstage is wider. With 99 steps, you are 20 rows back. I honestly think 70 steps is the more neutral of the two. This amp has the best of both worlds, upfront and laid back!!!

 I'd like Kingwa to confirm which one is supposed to be neutral, because they surely can't both be neutral. Too many differences between the two. I'm just loving this.


----------



## Yikes

I believe that it's your imagination. The 70 vs 99 is just the rate at which the volume changes. There really shouldn't be any difference except how the volume changes. Once at a given volume they should be identical.

 I'll try switching to 70 and seeing, but I'd be amazed if there is a difference. It's just changing the Volume Program.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Back to the Phoenix, everyone.

 I want you guys to confirm something that I have been suspicious of but didn't want to post about prematurely. In fact, I think it's a good thing but I wonder why it occurs at all: the sonic presentation is different between 99 steps volume and 70 steps volume. 99 steps is more laid back and smooth, while 70 is more upfront and aggressive. Of course, I've leveled the volume at both settings. I like the sound of each as they both offer equally enjoyable presentations. But they are different._

 

It appears you are indeed suffering from Heat Stroke...

 .


----------



## Dane

Isn't the volume control in the Phoenix done as "fly by wire", meaning that the physical resistors and relays are controlled via software. If so, I believe it is technically impossible that there be any difference between the two settings since the components through which the signal travels are exactly the same.

 Just a thought...


----------



## haloxt

If there's a difference it's too small for me to feel certain about, my gut says maybe 99 has better decay and is more separated but probably just my imagination. Also is it possible it's because one is more burned in than the other?


----------



## tim3320070

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sorry...yes I did.

 My apologies.

 Peete._

 

Just tweaking you.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Dane* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Isn't the volume control in the Phoenix done as "fly by wire", meaning that the physical resistors and relays are controlled via software. If so, I believe it is technically impossible that there be any difference between the two settings since the components through which the signal travels are exactly the same.

 Just a thought..._

 

It isn't impossible. The differences are there and they are very apparent in my system. You'd have to be deaf to not be able to hear it if you have a pair of balanced HD800. There is nothing slight between a front row presentation and a 20-row back presentation. If it's just something "defective" in my unit, it's a defect I like a lot. I'll give everyone a chance to hear it at the meet.

 Hopefully Kingwa will comment on this later.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It appears you are indeed suffering from Heat Stroke...

 ._

 

It appears you are indeed suffering from ignorance since you do not have my exact system.

 How about you try and control your nasty comments for more than a few hours, okay?


----------



## Yikes

The 70 and 99 use the exact same circuitry, there is no change in the signal path. All it does is change the way the volume control ramps. If you level match (Not Volume control indications) the signal will have identical signal paths. As Dane said the volume control is Fly by wire. The difference between 70 and 99 is just the rate at which the program changes the volume. The for any given output level (How loud it is, not what the digital readout says) the signal is being routed through the exact same components. I don't know how to explain it any simpler. 

 Ipod what you are describing is basically the fact that one is slightly louder than the other (People will almost always perceive the louder as being better). There is no difference except one might be a different level. Your insisting that there is a difference just cements that you're not the most objective evaluator around.

 But hey if you believe that there is a difference by all means adjust your listening habits to suit. However in this case you have drunken the cool-aid.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It appears you are indeed suffering from ignorance since you do not have my exact system.

 How about you try and control your nasty comments for more than a few hours, okay?_

 


 If you hooked up your HD800s to a Radio Telescope maybe you could hear the Rings around Uranus!

 .


----------



## Yikes

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If you hooked up your HD800s to a Radio Telescope maybe you could hear the Rings around Uranus!

 ._

 

Possibly the funniest single thing I've ever read on this website.


----------



## Currawong

If you turn the volume down with HD-800s, it might be argued that you have a smoother presentation. It certainly makes them more listen-able.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Possibly the funniest single thing I've ever read on this website.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I have my moments.

 FYI. On another note, I ran some tests today with Music running constantly and pink noise. The pink noise drives the amp temp up about 6 degrees.


----------



## Mik

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Back to the Phoenix, everyone.

 I want you guys to confirm something that I have been suspicious of but didn't want to post about prematurely. In fact, I think it's a good thing but I wonder why it occurs at all: the sonic presentation is different between 99 steps volume and 70 steps volume. 99 steps is more laid back and smooth, while 70 is more upfront and aggressive. Of course, I've leveled the volume at both settings. I like the sound of each as they both offer equally enjoyable presentations. But they are different._

 

I've noticed the same thing. I think I prefer the 70 step sound character a little better. I perceive it as slightly crisper at the moment.

 Maybe my Phoenix just needs more burn in, but the highs sound more reserved to me on the 99 step at equivalent volume levels compared to the 70 step. Maybe it's not what is actually happening, but it is how I hear it right now.


----------



## DoYouRight

I can't wait for HD800 prices to drop when there are more in the market. Id pay 1000 but not 1500.


----------



## n_maher

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It appears you are indeed suffering from ignorance since you do not have my exact system._

 

I fail to see how anything upstream or downstream could matter in this regard. It would appear that you've been at this too long. Try posting less and listening more for a little while, it'll do you good.

  Quote:


 How about you try and control your nasty comments for more than a few hours, okay? 
 

How about you take it down a level too?


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Mik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've noticed the same thing. I think I prefer the 70 step sound character a little better. I perceive it as slightly crisper at the moment.

 Maybe my Phoenix just needs more burn in, but the highs sound more reserved to me on the 99 step at equivalent volume levels compared to the 70 step. Maybe it's not what is actually happening, but it is how I hear it right now._

 

Ok, good. I asked Kingwa and he says there should be no difference but he is going to listen and see if he can investigate why. Hopefully he will hear the same thing and perhaps can explain the reasoning.


----------



## moonboy403

I keep asking for a picture of the silver Phoenix and I keep getting ignored.


----------



## tim3320070

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If you hooked up your HD800s to a Radio Telescope maybe you could hear the Rings around Uranus!

 ._

 

Really funny but a bit harsh Les. PJ is enthusiastic for sure, quick with impressions. If you were having a conversation face to face with him, would you respond the same, think about it?


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *moonboy403* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I keep asking for a picture of the silver Phoenix and I keep getting ignored. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I don't know of anyone that has the silver chassis version yet.

 Peete.


----------



## moonboy403

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't know of anyone that has the silver chassis version yet. 

 Peete._

 

I meant Audio-Gd wasn't responding. But upon posting here in this thread, I got my wish via email within a few minutes. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The silver Phoenix looks so nice!


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tim3320070* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Really funny but a bit harsh Les. PJ is enthusiastic for sure, quick with impressions. If you were having a conversation face to face with him, would you respond the same, think about it?_

 

You obviously don't know me 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 .


----------



## DoYouRight

silver makes it look alot more luxurious.


----------



## Fred Flintstone

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *moonboy403* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I keep asking for a picture of the silver Phoenix and I keep getting ignored. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I ordered mine in silver and it ships around the 12th. I'll shoot pictures when it arrives.


----------



## moonboy403

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Fred Flintstone* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I ordered mine in silver and it ships around the 12th. I'll shoot pictures when it arrives._

 

Look for the pics above. Supposedly, mine is getting shipped on the 5th when I ordered on 6/29. 

 When did you order yours?


----------



## ztsen

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *moonboy403* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I meant Audio-Gd wasn't responding. But upon posting here in this thread, I got my wish via email within a few minutes. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The silver Phoenix looks so nice! 



 





 

_

 


 But the black headphone jack don't really that match with the silver


----------



## Fred Flintstone

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *moonboy403* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Look for the pics above. Supposedly, mine is getting shipped on the 5th when I ordered on 6/29. 

 When did you order yours?_

 

Ordered mine last night. I probably missed a production run which is why yours is shipping earlier.


----------



## IPodPJ

The silver is very nice, but I'm actually glad mine is in black now that I see a picture of it. I guess it just depends what gear you are pairing it with.

 Mik,
 I forgot to ask you: did you have the switch installed in your Phoenix that turns off the display?


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ztsen* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_But the black headphone jack don't really that match with the silver_

 

Good Point, it would probably look better with Silver Neutriks.

 .


----------



## Mik

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Mik,
 I forgot to ask you: did you have the switch installed in your Phoenix that turns off the display?_

 

Nope, I didn't get any mods to mine. I'm running it balanced with the CAST inputs and XLR outputs if that helps.


----------



## n3rdling

I agree about the headphone jacks; the PSU looks gorgeous in all silver but the amp box looks kinda ugly because of those black jacks. 

 How are you guys "volume matching" when you compare 99 vs 70 and SE vs balanced? I hope you're not trying to do it by ear. Also, if one volume function is linear and the other is logarithmic, the numbers will only correspond at 0.


----------



## The Monkey

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ok, good. I asked Kingwa and he says there should be no difference but he is going to listen and see if he can investigate why. Hopefully he will hear the same thing and perhaps can explain the reasoning._

 

Do you agree that it is possible that the perceived difference is your imagination or do you think that is impossible?


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *The Monkey* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Do you agree that it is possible that the perceived difference is your imagination or do you think that is impossible?_

 

If it's my imagination, my girlfriend has the same imagination because she can hear it plainly too. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 If we were talking about comparing WAV to lossless, I'd say sure, it could be.

 This is why I didn't bring it up when I heard it right away. I've been listening to it like this for the past few days making sure. But there's no point even talking about since everyone's made up their mind, and until Kingwa actually tests it there will be no resolve since I don't have an oscilloscope. What Kingwa did tell me is that he listens with the 70 step volume.

 Mik,
 Ok, thanks. I'm not using CAST input. Just XLR in, XLR headphone out. But mine does have the display switch mod so I wonder if that has something to do with it.


----------



## XXII

Well having two different "flavors" of volume control doesn't exactly inspire confidence in the transparency of the amp. 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If it's my imagination, my girlfriend has the same imagination because she can hear it plainly too. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 If we were talking about comparing WAV to lossless, I'd say sure, it could be.

 This is why I didn't bring it up when I heard it right away. I've been listening to it like this for the past few days making sure. But there's no point even talking about since everyone's made up their mind, and until Kingwa actually tests it there will be no resolve since I don't have an oscilloscope. What Kingwa did tell me is that he listens with the 70 step volume.

 Mik,
 Ok, thanks. I'm not using CAST input. Just XLR in, XLR headphone out. But mine does have the display switch mod so I wonder if that has something to do with it._


----------



## IPodPJ

You know what it actually sounds like the more I listen to it? It sounds like the 70 step selection is out of phase (180 degrees), if that's even possible the way it's built. Maybe someone wired something backwards. I'm going to ask Kingwa if this is possible.

 I think this is possible because L & R are still where they should be, but the soundstage is moved to the rear and the bass does not sound precise, but loose and flabby, just like when you invert the phase on a DAC.

 Edit: He is in the process of testing it now.


----------



## moonboy403

Can anyone tell me the form factor of the Phoenix?


----------



## anadin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *moonboy403* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Can anyone tell me the form factor of the Phoenix?_

 

5' 8.5" tall and has vital statistics of 32-27-36.


----------



## NiToNi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Good Point, it would probably look better with Silver Neutriks._

 

Or with Furutech FP-782F(G) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *moonboy403* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Can anyone tell me the form factor of the Phoenix?_

 

Each enclosure has the dimensions 250 (W) x 80 (H) x 360 (D) mm.


----------



## NiToNi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You know what it actually sounds like the more I listen to it? It sounds like the 70 step selection is out of phase (180 degrees), if that's even possible the way it's built. Maybe someone wired something backwards. I'm going to ask Kingwa if this is possible.

 I think this is possible because L & R are still where they should be, but the soundstage is moved to the rear and the bass does not sound precise, but loose and flabby, just like when you invert the phase on a DAC.

 Edit: He is in the process of testing it now._

 

If that is the case, and a problem on all units shipped so far, and the other owner's have not heard this, I know who's ears I will be trusting for future impressions


----------



## moonboy403

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *NiToNi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Each enclosure has the dimensions 250 (W) x 80 (H) x 360 (D) mm._

 

Thanks for the quick answer! I appreciate it.


----------



## Patu

Have you noticed this new headphone amp picture on the front page of Audio GD? It's called ROC (I think). It says that it's coming soon.


----------



## peanuthead

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If it's my imagination, my girlfriend has the same imagination because she can hear it plainly too. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Did she come up with the observation independently? Or did you ask her, "hey honey, do you also notice that the two volume settings sound different?"
 Unless she came up with the observation without any input from you, it's Folie à deux.


----------



## JamesL

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *peanuthead* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Did she come up with the observation independently? Or did you ask her, "hey honey, do you also notice that the two volume settings sound different?"
 Unless she came up with the observation without any input from you, it's Folie à deux._

 

Folie a deux is a pretty rare syndrome.
 More likely, it's several or more different types of cognitive bias'.


----------



## peanuthead

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JamesL* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Folie a deux is a pretty rare syndrome.
 More likely, it's several or more different types of cognitive bias'._

 

I meant it more as an expression, not as a diagnosis...


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *NiToNi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If that is the case, and a problem on all units shipped so far, and the other owner's have not heard this, I know who's ears I will be trusting for future impressions 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Kingwa ran tests on his unit and he says he cannot hear any difference. I don't know what might be the cause, but I prefer 70 steps. I wish I had a power regenerator to find out if that would eliminate the issue.

 But it is not out of phase. I thought it sounded that way at first but the more I tested it I found out that wasn't true. I have an IASCA test disc that plays a track out of phase, so if my amp was out of phase it would sound coherent and that didn't happen.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *peanuthead* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Did she come up with the observation independently? Or did you ask her, "hey honey, do you also notice that the two volume settings sound different?"
 Unless she came up with the observation without any input from you, it's Folie à deux._

 

She wouldn't think to flip the switch, but I just asked her to see if she could hear any difference between the two and if so to tell me what they were. She came to the same conclusion I did. She initially told me my modded D5000 were too bright and I told her that she had bad ears. It turned out she was right when I compared them to other headphones.


----------



## Currawong

IMO, I reckon it's the result in a change of volume, because what was described is exactly what I experienced with the HD-800s with higher volumes. Since I don't have an SPL meter, the best I can do is set the volume at the same relative level, eg: 28/99 and 20/77 on the Phoenix and listen. I can't say I certainly can hear any significant difference.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_IMO, I reckon it's the result in a change of volume, because what was described is exactly what I experienced with the HD-800s with higher volumes. Since I don't have an SPL meter, the best I can do is set the volume at the same relative level, eg: 28/99 and 20/77 on the Phoenix and listen. I can't say I certainly can hear any significant difference._

 

If your Phoenix is the same way, you won't have to try to hear any difference. It will be obvious and will be noticeable with any headphone. Vocals are much more subdued and lacking body in 99 step. Also 99 step has more prominent treble.


----------



## Currawong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If your Phoenix is the same way, you won't have to try to hear any difference. It will be obvious and will be noticeable with any headphone. Vocals are much more subdued and lacking body in 99 step. Also 99 step has more prominent treble._

 

That's because there's a volume difference.


----------



## Dane

ab·surd (b-sûrd, -zûrd)
 adj.
 1. Ridiculously incongruous or unreasonable. See Synonyms at foolish.
 2. Of, relating to, or manifesting the view that there is no order or value in human life or in the universe.
 3. Of or relating to absurdism or the absurd.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *NiToNi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If that is the case, and a problem on all units shipped so far, and the other owner's have not heard this, I know who's ears I will be trusting for future impressions 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

Let me get this straight...you jump down his throat for SQ impressions and call them suspect but the moment he posts something negative it's the god's honest truth ? Based on what ? You can have it both ways.

 Peete.


----------



## Quadrangulum

That silver chassis looks just sublime. It would fit perfectly in my equipment rack. Hopefully Kingwa reintroduces the color.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Frankly there shouldn't be a difference between the two vol settings....you guys are forgetting all about burn in period. Keep that in mind.

 1K hours is likely considering how long the RE1 took/takes and Tyson's C3SE (and DAC8/C1's) which he said took ages to break in fully.

 So..........

 Peete.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Let me get this straight...you jump down his throat for SQ impressions and call them suspect but the moment he posts something negative it's the god's honest truth ? Based on what ? You can have it both ways.

 Peete._

 

 I actually thought his post was Tongue in Cheek, and inline with all the other strangeness.

 .


----------



## Cobold

Why do you always put up a fight?

 If Ipod hears different sound in the two modes we have to assume there are differences.
 If Kingwa says there should be no diffences in Phoenix something must be wrong with this maybe only one unit.
 If that's the case it would be interesting what is the right sound.

 The other possibility is the volume was not on the same volume and this caused the well known effect that loud appears better.


----------



## grawk

IpodPJ being right and Kingwa being wrong isn't the only interpretation of these results. The alternate interpretation is that IpodPJ is mistaken in what he thinks he's hearing, which could be caused by any number of factors. Slight volume differences are the most frequent cause, but lots of things could be factoring in.


----------



## Cobold

I didn't mean Kingwa is wrong.
 If Kingwa says both modes are the same that is how it normally is for the Phoenix.
 I wanted to say Ipods amp has a problem if there is a difference.


----------



## nikongod

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_But it is not out of phase. I thought it sounded that way at first but the more I tested it I found out that wasn't true. I have an IASCA test disc that plays a track out of phase, so if my amp was out of phase it would sound coherent and that didn't happen._

 

Test discs generally test relative phase:
 IE whether one channel is in phase and the other not. You have to be truly special to screw up relative phase on a headphone system. 

 Test discs that test ABSOLUTE phase of the whole system usually require a tester of some sort and DONT rely on the quality of the users ear

 try something like this if you are concerned with the absolute phase:
link
 If you dont have a way to correct the absolute phase of your system, you dont need one of those


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Cobold* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Why do you always put up a fight?

 If Ipod hears different sound in the two modes we have to *assume* there are differences.
 If Kingwa says there should be no diffences in Phoenix something must be wrong with this maybe only one unit.
 If that's the case it would be interesting what is the right sound.

 The other possibility is the volume was not on the same volume and this caused the well known effect that loud appears better._

 

You can assume whatever you want, in league with whoever you want. IpodPJ made a lot of statements, and he made a lot of statements in the D5000/D7000 thread if you haven't read those ditties yet. This is not the first thread where he exhibited "Hallucinations and Hyperbole", and was called out on it.

 You believe what he says, and want to jump on the "assumption" bandwagon, good for ya!

 For some strange reason I'm inclined to side with Kingwa here.

 Ohhh, and I didn't put up a fight, I pointed out that I thought NiToNi's post was satire, at least that's how I interpreted it.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *grawk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_IpodPJ being right and Kingwa being wrong isn't the only interpretation of these results. The alternate interpretation is that IpodPJ is mistaken in what he thinks he's hearing, which could be caused by any number of factors. Slight volume differences are the most frequent cause, but lots of things could be factoring in._

 

For the umpteenth time, this is not a minor difference. It is significant, so if it should not be present I can only assume my unit is not working the way it "should." Regardless, I am pleased with the different tonal qualities and presentations.

 Aside from this, what have I said about this amp that wasn't later confirmed by other owners once they received it? And once other people hear it at the meet they will confirm what I am hearing. It's sad that with the level of equipment I have here and as long as I've been listening to headphones, I should have to try to prove myself to ANY of you. I do not need your recognition or acceptance, so you can continue to live in your small universe where everything must conform to the ideal world of _(INSERT YOUR NAME HERE)_. This is the last post I will comment about these issues. It's your own shortcoming if you choose to dismiss someone else's findings. With all the issues that have arisen out of Audio-gd gear in the past, is it so hard to believe that a particular unit might have a defect?


----------



## Townyj

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Have you noticed this new headphone amp picture on the front page of Audio GD? It's called ROC (I think). It says that it's coming soon._

 

This has definitely caught my attention!!!


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Cobold* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Why do you always put up a fight?

 If Ipod hears different sound in the two modes we have to assume there are differences.
 If Kingwa says there should be no diffences in Phoenix something must be wrong with this maybe only one unit.
 If that's the case it would be interesting what is the right sound.

 The other possibility is the volume was not on the same volume and this caused the well known effect that loud appears better._

 

What you/we/us are forgetting here is the hearing of each and every one of us is different so no one set of ears can be entirely taken on face value, nor can they be entirely ruled out, which is why we need many reports from many individuals. I'm at a distinct disadvantage here as I have neither a Phoenix nor a set of HD800's....that being said some premature absolutes are being thrown around way too early in this process, combine that reality with the fact that we have a very small sampling of units in the field....... I think a more measured approach is needed to avoid pointless squabbling.

 Rather than jump to silly conclusions ( I'm saying this in general and I am not singling anyone out with this thought) let's put the end result (guessing) aside for now and discuss the possible issues behind them. This means talking with the designer first .........since no one else is better qualified to discuss such things. I'm all for examining every possibility but let's be sensible about outright guessing and what we actually know.

 Peete.


----------



## haloxt

Just to play devil's advocate here, the people testing out the sound difference of 99 vs. 70 during the mini-meet may have their opinions colored by what has already been said on the issue. On one hand they might refuse to believe they hear a difference because they know there "shouldn't" be a difference between the two volumes, but on the other hand they might be persuaded by the personality and suggestions of ipodpj into thinking they hear the difference. I don't know how different the two settings are, but I wonder if burn-in won't make them equal because I believe in burn-in even for things like cables.

 It's kind of like cable believers vs. cable unbelievers, people are never going to get anywhere "calling people out", people are going to believe their own ears/opinions (pro-cable and anti-cable both) no matter how much they squabble.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Well it's incumbent on the mini meet listeners to keep an open mind...at least that is what I'm hoping for and I believe (being an optimist) that that is what we are likely to get from PJ's upcoming meet.

 As with all reviews here and elsewhere the final arbiter ultimately is your own gray matter. Consensus whether reached or not on every subject/aspect is somewhat difficult if not impossible (even among a small group) but general impressions can be taken at face value once enough ears have heard the same system via a meet under controlled circumstances. Such testing is as fair a representation of pooled perceptions, boiled down, as we are likely to get. Beyond that all purchase's IMO are a leap of faith great or small.

 Peete.


----------



## NiToNi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I actually thought his post was Tongue in Cheek, and inline with all the other strangeness._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ohhh, and I didn't put up a fight, I pointed out that I thought NiToNi's post was satire, at least that's how I interpreted it._

 

Hehe... oh dear!! 

 Thanks Les, you're spot on...


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Satire or no the point has/had merit and as with any good humor/satire there is grain of truth to it.

 I've said my piece on the subject.

 Peete.


----------



## Currawong

It's pretty easy to show it's a volume thing: Set the Phoenix to 99 steps. Turn the volume up. Play some music. Set it to 70 steps. Turn the volume down so it is unmistakably and significantly lower than you had it on 99 steps. Play some music. Now things will sound the inverse of what iPodPJ reckons he's hearing. Actually, just turn the volume down or up on either setting. If it's not already obvious, headphones sound different at different volume levels.


----------



## Yikes

Tonight I experimented with the two Volume programs. I roughed in level matching and there was no difference. I prefer the 99 steps from a use standpoint, but to my ears there was no sonic difference.

 My understanding of the way it works the two programs change the rate at which the resistors that make up the volume control are switched, not which resistors are in the signal path for a given output level. I can't even visualize how the controls could malfunction to make one program sound different. 

 Whatever.... On my Phoenix they sound the same. I'm done worrying about what someone else thinks they're hearing. My Phoenix sounds identically great on both settings.


----------



## IPodPJ

Kingwa just sent me this list in case any of you want to know what equivalent volume matching would be (not to get into an argument about who hears what, but just so you can match volumes for yourself): (He also gave me the binary code for it, but that's irrelevant info)

 99 steps ------- 70 steps
 -------------------------
 0----------------0
 1----------------1
 2----------------2
 3----------------3
 4----------------4
 6----------------5
 7----------------6
 8----------------7
 10---------------8
 12---------------9
 14---------------10
 15---------------11
 17---------------12
 19---------------13
 21---------------14
 22---------------15
 24---------------16
 25---------------17
 27---------------18
 29---------------19
 30---------------20
 32---------------21

 That's all he gave.


----------



## NiToNi

I just turned down the silver version although it was the last one. I don't like how the black Neutriks contrast against the silver on the preamp case. And it is not likely that Kingwa will release other products in this format, such as a matching DAC, in a silver finish. Also, the black finish make the Phoenix look like a little mini-Mark Levinson 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Is it possible to have three headphones connected to the Phoenix and playing at the same time? It would be cool if I could have my HD800 on the 2 x XLR 3-pin, my K1000 on the single XLR 4-pin, and my Shure 530's on the SE.


----------



## D_4_Dog

so it wasn't just me who's diggin the Mark Levinson look huh??


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *D_4_Dog* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_so it wasn't just me who's diggin the Mark Levinson look huh??_

 

Apparently Kingwa digs the ML Look, the Krell Technology, and the Krell names for some of his Gear. If he ever shows up at a CanJam, he may get arrested! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 .


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *NiToNi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just turned down the silver version although it was the last one. I don't like how the black Neutriks contrast against the silver on the preamp case. And it is not likely that Kingwa will release other products in this format, such as a matching DAC, in a silver finish. Also, the black finish make the Phoenix look like a little mini-Mark Levinson 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Is it possible to have three headphones connected to the Phoenix and playing at the same time? It would be cool if I could have my HD800 on the 2 x XLR 3-pin, my K1000 on the single XLR 4-pin, and my Shure 530's on the SE._

 

Hmmm, a Silver REF1 and a Silver Phoenix would be pretty sharp!

 .


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Apparently Kingwa digs the ML Look, the Krell Technology, and the Krell names for some of his Gear. If he ever shows up at a CanJam, he may get arrested! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ._

 

He also digs the Esoteric D-01 because the REF-1 uses very similar technology, as well as the ML 30.6.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *NiToNi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is it possible to have three headphones connected to the Phoenix and playing at the same time? It would be cool if I could have my HD800 on the 2 x XLR 3-pin, my K1000 on the single XLR 4-pin, and my Shure 530's on the SE._

 

I know you can use at least one balanced and one SE. I don't have two balanced phones to try.


----------



## moonboy403

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I know you can use at least one balanced and one SE. I don't have two balanced phones to try._

 

Wouldn't using them at the same time half the power output?


----------



## tim3320070

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_He also digs the Esoteric D-01 because the REF-1 uses very similar technology, as well as the ML 30.6._

 

$25,000 for a stereo setup! Outrageous.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *moonboy403* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wouldn't using them at the same time half the power output?_

 

Well, if you use SE at the same time as balanced I imagine it should take both down at least to some level, but it doesn't appear that way when you listen. When I plugged in the K702 SE while listening to the HD800 balanced, I heard no difference in volume on the K702. I haven't tried listening to the K702 while plugging in the HD800, but I imagine the result would be the same. So if the volume does go down, at a normal listening level it wasn't apparent at all to me.


----------



## NiToNi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *moonboy403* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wouldn't using them at the same time half the power output?_

 

What is more likely to happen when you plug-in two balanced headphones is that the combined impedance that the amp is seeing changes. The impedance will go up if the two XLR outputs are wired in series (thus lowering the power output) and reduce if they are wired in parallel (thus increasing the power output).

 I just want to know if it is at least safe to try - not meant as default configuration.


----------



## Yikes

The outputs are almost always in Parallel, so the load the amp sees is more difficult (Lower impedance). This means if the amp is capable of driving more current it will do so. This means that the total power output would go up, but it would be divided between the two sets of headphones. If the headphones are the same impedance the power would be split evenly. If they are different impedances the power would not be divided evenly.

 There's formulas, but I forgot them decades ago. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I'd say that the Phoenix is overbuilt, so it is more than likely capable of handling two sets of headphones at the same time. However it would also depend on which headphones. Two pairs of 300 Ohm Sennheisers would present a load of 150 Ohms, no problem. Two pairs of Denon AH-D7000's however would present a load of 12.5 Ohms which might be a bit low. It does drive the 25 ohm load of a single set of 7000 like a champ.


----------



## pompon

I heard the B22 3 ch today ... I really liked it.

 It's very smooth, warm, detailed, very good soundstage ... is the Phoenix share theses aspects ?

 Is the phoenix is more "tap foot" compared to the B22 ?

 I am very interested but I am concerned for the heat problem. Why they not put big and fat heatsink on the side of the amp and put the transistor directly on the heat sink ?

 One advantage to use solid state is the ability to let it open all time ... but if unit got too hot ... this is a big problem.


----------



## Currawong

I'd say the sound signature is that of no sound signature, good if you like listening to your music and not your equipment.

 I've left mine on almost continuously since I bought it, and while the power supply side gets hot enough that I don't feel comfortable leaving my hand on it, I've not encountered any side-effects except better SQ once it has warmed up.


----------



## Yikes

My Phoenix has been on and playing non-stop for 250 hours. Except for the fact that the power supply glows cherry red I have experienced no problems.

 It's simple, if you are afraid of equipment that runs warm to very warm (Almost Hot, hot being you can't hold your hand on it) then don't buy a Phoenix. It's nothing to be ashamed of Girlie Man.


----------



## The Monkey

How hot does a piece of equipment need to get to be considered a real hazard? It seems that there is at least some well-known gear out there that runs too hot to touch. Is there a generally accepted "safe zone"?


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pompon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am very interested but I am concerned for the heat problem. Why they not put big and fat heatsink on the side of the amp and put the transistor directly on the heat sink ?

 One advantage to use solid state is the ability to let it open all time ... but if unit got too hot ... this is a big problem._

 

Hi Pompon,
 Kingwa has stated why and we have posted it in this thread several times. He says the sound quality is better when it gets hot, and that is how he designed it. He says vent holes will cool it down and then it won't sound as good. In my experience, every time I turn off the amp for the day, when I come back to it the next day I have to let it warm up for 3 - 4 hours before it sounds its best. Sure, you can listen to it right away and it will sound like a good amp, but if you want to listen to your music and not your amp (as Currawong stated), it needs to get very warm/hot first. If someone would have told me this before owning the amp, I probably wouldn't have believed it.


----------



## Currawong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *The Monkey* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How hot does a piece of equipment need to get to be considered a real hazard? It seems that there is at least some well-known gear out there that runs too hot to touch. Is there a generally accepted "safe zone"?_

 

Not quite an answer, but you know that notebook computers are no longer called laptops for a reason? I recall someone on a forum who left his Apple Powerbook on his doona, both insulating it and blocking the air holes, and it fried itself. My Macbook Pro I'd say runs hotter, and needs a fan to prevent it overheating, even after I carefully applied Arctic Silver to the chips.


----------



## pompon

I find too my tube amp is better when it's hot. 

 To avoid premature failure, it's necessary to have the proper amount of heat dissipation.

 Is the older Audio-gd product had a similar heat level ? 


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi Pompon,
 Kingwa has stated why and we have posted it in this thread several times. He says the sound quality is better when it gets hot, and that is how he designed it. He says vent holes will cool it down and then it won't sound as good. In my experience, every time I turn off the amp for the day, when I come back to it the next day I have to let it warm up for 3 - 4 hours before it sounds its best. Sure, you can listen to it right away and it will sound like a good amp, but if you want to listen to your music and not your amp (as Currawong stated), it needs to get very warm/hot first. If someone would have told me this before owning the amp, I probably wouldn't have believed it._


----------



## Yikes




----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pompon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I find too my tube amp is better when it's hot. 

 To avoid premature failure, it's necessary to have the proper amount of heat dissipation.

 Is the older Audio-gd product had a similar heat level ?_

 

There is not going to be any failure. And if there were Kingwa would fix it. Nothing to be worried about, seriously. If it concerns you that much, there are a plethera of headphone amps to choose from.


----------



## Yikes

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There is not going to be any failure. And if there were Kingwa would fix it. Nothing to be worried about, seriously. If it concerns you that much, there are a plethera of headphone amps to choose from. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 


 You shouldn't make blanket statements like this. The fact is that everything else being equal running hotter will ultimately reduce the lifespan of any electronics. So if it ran cool you might get 15 years out of it, but since it runs hot you might only get 7, or 10 or whatever. I have no doubt that the ultimate lifespan of my Phoenix is shorter because it runs hot than if it were an ice cube. I'm also just as sure that the reasons that it runs warm are also some of the reasons why it sounds good.

 I had some Bel Canto Ref 1000's (Class D Amps) for a while, they don't get even slightly warm. They sounded good, but not great. So I went for a set of Parasound JC1's. The JC1's run Class A up to 25 watts (Most of the time) and get quite hot, and they weigh about 70 lbs each, but they absolutely destroy the Ref 1000's,. I REALLY wanted to like the Ref 1000's, they're efficient (Cheap to run), they run cool (Cheaper on my AC, and likely to last longer) and they weigh 12 lbs each (My bad back adored them), but they don't measure up against the better Class A/AB amplifiers (No matter what the wacky reviewers say).

 How much heat that a piece of electronics generates is a compromise, a compromise between longevity, performance and efficiency. I actually think that the Phoenix could have some additional cooling (Heatsinks) without dramatically hurting it's performance. With extra radiating area it would run a little cooler, this could positively effect its longevity. It would still run quite warm and still in all likelihood sound great.

 However it is what it is. This is the way Kingwa designed and built it. It runs very warm, it sounds great, and it might not last as long as another amp that runs cooler.

 So if you want cool go pick up a PS Audio GCHA. It sounds good, takes USB in, and runs super cool. It also doesn't touch the Phoenix in the sound quality department.


----------



## IPodPJ

That's what I'm saying. The sound quality is worth the compromise. But I don't think a longevity of 7 - 10 years as opposed to 20 years for a cooling running amp is a premature failure. I wish most of my electronics would last 7 - 10 years! I'd be in heaven if the Phoenix lasted that long. A premature failure in my mind is before the 3 year warranty expires. If it lasts longer (and it should) consider yourself fortunate. If Pompon is really concerned with it, he should buy a different amp.


----------



## blessingx

Personally, I know exactly zero people (financially well off or otherwise) that would consider any life-span over three years to be "fortunate" territory on a $1200 amp.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *blessingx* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Personally, I know exactly zero people (financially well off or otherwise) that would consider any life-span over three years to be "fortunate" territory on a $1200 amp._

 

I guess all the problems I've had with my television and computers lately have changed my perspective. Sad, but true. Electronics are just not made like they used to be. I had a Sony trinitron tube television and an RCA tube (I gave the Sony away) that's going strong almost 20 years later; I couldn't afford to replace them until I got my 46" Bravia almost a year ago which I've had nothing but hell with (every part was replaced at least twice, finally they gave me a replacement which was still used).

 Of course it should last more than 3 years, but if it runs three years without needing ANY repairs, in this day and age that seems fortunate, unfortunately.


----------



## IPodPJ

Curra,

 Just curious, how much bass are you getting out of your balanced HD800 with the Reference One (through the Phoenix)? I know that is one of it's strong points.

 I get really nice bass with my DL3 but I wouldn't mind just a tad more.

 Also, just wondering if you have any preference for balanced inputs on the Phoenix. (#2 or #4) I prefer input #2.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *blessingx* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Personally, I know exactly zero people (financially well off or otherwise) that would consider any life-span over three years to be "fortunate" territory on a $1200 amp._

 

Myself included. I just recently sold some amps, Tuners, and preamps I bought 25-30 years ago and they worked and still sounded great. My speakers I bought in the late 80s, some of them. I say if you buy good gear, even Class A gear, 10-20 years should be a walk in the park. If I bought a piece of Gear that went poof in 3-4 years, they would have a hell of a time getting me to buy from them again.

 I do think it would be interesting to see if he made an extruded Heat sink on the bottom of his chassis, if it would "hurt" his SQ. I don't believe that myself.

 .


----------



## IPodPJ

Les,
 That's good to know. I don't have experience with Class A gear so if it lasts that long I'll be thrilled! Did you ever need any repairs on those pieces over the years?


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Les,
 That's good to know. I don't have experience with Class A gear so if it lasts that long I'll be thrilled! Did you ever need any repairs on those pieces over the years?_

 

I've never had a piece of gear go out, lucky I guess. I have a slightly decreased output in one of my ML Monoliths and may have to get new panels for them if washing doesn't help. It's a long story about the washing.

 .


----------



## Currawong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Curra,

 Just curious, how much bass are you getting out of your balanced HD800 with the Reference One (through the Phoenix)? I know that is one of it's strong points.

 I get really nice bass with my DL3 but I wouldn't mind just a tad more.

 Also, just wondering if you have any preference for balanced inputs on the Phoenix. (#2 or #4) I prefer input #2._

 

The overall signature with the combo is that you hear the music as it is. If I play Massive Attack, the bass is there in the tracks in all its glory. If I want more, different headphones are in order. I have Stax rig which, unusually, is set up well for quite a bit of bass thump if I feel the need. However, I've order some CryoParts cable to re-terminate the HD-800s with, which has a reputation for bringing out more bass in headphones, so I'll try that to see how I feel about it. If you're looking to tune the sound, start with your headphones.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Les,
 That's good to know. I don't have experience with Class A gear so if it lasts that long I'll be thrilled! Did you ever need any repairs on those pieces over the years?_

 

All my gear back in Australia is around 15-25 years old. Everything works perfectly with two exceptions: The old Luxman integrated's "Acculock" for the FM radio is a bit flakey, and the glue on the rim of the cones on my old Paradigms had to be re-applied.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The overall signature with the combo is that you hear the music as it is. If I play Massive Attack, the bass is there in the tracks in all its glory. If I want more, different headphones are in order. I have Stax rig which, unusually, is set up well for quite a bit of bass thump if I feel the need. However, I've order some CryoParts cable to re-terminate the HD-800s with, which has a reputation for bringing out more bass in headphones, so I'll try that to see how I feel about it. If you're looking to tune the sound, start with your headphones._

 

I'm not looking to tune the sound at all. I want it neutral. I'm just not sure if my DL3 is slightly bass shy. That's all I was asking.

 Lee makes a very good cable and has great wire. My custom Locus Design Group K702 cable with a rhodium plated Cardas connector made a very nice improvement to the K702, which has one of the worst stock cables I've ever seen. You won't go wrong with his wire.


----------



## Nada

Could there an easy way to passively cool the Phoenix down without having to modify the actual unit or spend much money?

 As most of the heat is reported to emanate from the base is there some smart design that the unit could sit on that would passively conduct the heat away to a radiant area for dispersing the thermal energy?

 Could the feet be taken off easily so it could just sit on a heat sink like this

Birmingham Aluminium Ltd - Catalogue - Page 12 - Kellysearch.co.uk B2B Online Product Catalogues

 Or would a chimney effect be smarter and cheaper eg ALUMINIUM RECTANGULAR HOLLOW SECTION lengths running in parallel under the unit allowing intake under the front of the unit and exiting out the rear via a 45 degree upward angle welded into the section to create the chimney effect and sufficient airflow to cool the bottom of the unit?


----------



## dallan

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm not looking to tune the sound at all. I want it neutral. I'm just not sure if my DL3 is slightly bass shy. That's all I was asking.

 Lee makes a very good cable and has great wire. My custom Locus Design Group K702 cable with a rhodium plated Cardas connector made a very nice improvement to the K702, which has one of the worst stock cables I've ever seen. You won't go wrong with his wire._

 

Ya I got that digital interconnect (75ohm RCA-RCA) from him and the difference when i a/b it was dramatic, i really couldn't imagine it would make that much of an improvement.


----------



## moonboy403

I just got my DHL tracking number, Phoenix is coming to town!


----------



## dallan

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *moonboy403* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just got my DHL tracking number, Phoenix is coming to town!_

 

Another one for the meet.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *moonboy403* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just got my DHL tracking number, Phoenix is coming to town!_

 

That's good to hear. Mine should arrive tomorrow sometime.......It will be good to get a first hand listen instead of reading about it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Peete.


----------



## moonboy403

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dallan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Another one for the meet.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

You can count on it!


----------



## IPodPJ

I just received my tracking number for the replacement panel for my amp.

 Also, Kingwa was reading the thread and sent me this in response to your concerns for heat:

 "BTW, about the life of gears, usually if temperature not very high, the life depend on caps. Our gears like Phoenix most apply 105C caps, and it work on less than 50C.
 Some gears use 85C caps, and it work on 35C. This is normal, usres not feel hot in this gears. But apply 105C caps work on 50C, life not less than use 85C caps work on 35C.
 I ever test by some KRELL ,music fidelity and some gears, some of then will have more than 65C, but they still work more than 15 years , now still work fine.
 Kingwa"


----------



## Bob Jones

Mine was supposed to ship on the 5th but haven't heard a word.


----------



## haloxt

I had never really enjoyed hip hop because I always thought they sounded small and petty and were "just making noise", but having now upgraded dac, amp, and balanced headphones hip hop sounds completely different. The unabashed dynamics and distinct instruments lends much dignity to the music. In other words, it seems like I now understand what the musicians are trying to express, while in the past I simply thought of them as noisy people trying to intimidate others, but now that the notes are well-separated but interweave so nicely it has the exact opposite effect. I know what I've just said will make no sense to some people, but I'm very happy I can now hear what the musicians want to say without being hampered by coloration which isn't good for all genres.


----------



## pompon

I see different color for the amp ... I don't see that on their web site. Is-it special order or something like that ?


----------



## haloxt

Audio-gd originally wanted to make the Phoenix silver, but most of us wanted black so they made black instead. They wanted to offer both color options but later found out it was too hard to make the silver so they only had 5 silver ones to sell but they should all be sold now. Who knows if they'll offer silver in the future, I hope so though it looks amazing in silver too.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Mine arrived today (about 30 minutes ago) but I need to make up some temp CAST cables until the set I've requested (bought) from Kingwa arrive.

 Anyone know the correct pin out wiring for these ? 

 From what I can see from the internal wiring...........Pins 1 and 4 are jumpered (gnd I'm assuming). While the other pins (2 and 3) are the + and - signals, 2 = +, 3 = - correct ?

 Internal pics will have to wait until next weekend.I won't have the cam until then.

 The unit is much easier to unpack. Not as much tape (which is good) and it's a real looker in person. I'll not be firing it up until I've made the temp CAST cables, converted my DIY cable to balanced. Hopefully Les or someone else in the know can confirm the CAST pin out assignments so I can get to work on those. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Peete.


----------



## punk_guy182

Yo Peete!
 Why did yours take so long to arrive?
 What are those special cables you ordered from Kingwa?


----------



## Pricklely Peete

EMS (fast) + Canada Post (very slow) = slow as a snail. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The CAST cables I need to connect the RE1 DAC to the Phoenix. Someone forgot to pop a pair in the box. No big deal but it slows me down from getting her set up.

 Peete.


----------



## tim3320070

You could connect some XLR or RCA's and get an idea of the sound with those "inferior" connections. It would give you (us) an idea if there is an improvement with the CAST connection.


----------



## tim3320070

Also, I would love, at some point, an idea of the sound with the HD650 SE vs. balanced per your signature.


----------



## moonboy403

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tim3320070* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Also, I would love, at some point, an idea of the sound with the HD650 SE vs. balanced per your signature._

 

X2

 At least your impressions can hold me over till mine arrives.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

I have the 650 stock cable for SE'd impressions and a good DIY cable (to convert to the 4 pin jack) for the balanced setup...so I have that covered for you Tim. 

 I don't have any balanced cables on hand unfortunately and I won't be able to get any locally until the weekend (if I can find any half decent ones around here which is unlikely).

 The Belden wire (2 x 2 with drain and foil shields for each pairing) I have for the temp CAST cables is proving to be very difficult to dress because it's so bloody stiff.....talk about a PITA. It'll likely take me all afternoon to solder these up properly. I'll futz with the 4 pin kit tomorrow unless I get these CAST cables done in the next 2 hours.

 Peete.


----------



## IPodPJ

I hope you're letting the amp warm up in the mean time.


----------



## Yikes

Ipod, The inputs are identical. What does happen is each input needs to be broken in. So if you use one all of the time that one will sound better than the other inputs. Just imagine trying to break in all of the inputs, PITA.

 I'm up to 288 hours, about 200 on the input from my DAC and the rest on another. The same goes for outputs. My SE preamp outs have about 180 hours and the XLR outs have about 70 hours and the 1/4" headphone outputs have about 38 hours on them. It's just the plugs and relays and stuff that needs to be broken in. The Inputs and Outputs all go through the same circuitry, so it's only the connectors and such that require some time. It's a subtle difference, but in a high resolution system such differences can be heard.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Well my temp CAST cables work like a charm. Listening in CAST mode from CD7 Dig out #2 to RE1 via BNC ---> BNC, RE1 CAST outs to Phoenix CAST ins. SE'd out to active xover in preamp mode.

 So far I'm liking what I'm hearing and it's a big improvement over my tube pre although the modified tube pre does a fine job. Too early to say anything more than that. It's certainly apparent there is dynamics and drive a plenty on tap right off the bat.

 The two chassis just barely fit on my Bright Star ISORock 4 platform I have for it. But it does, so that's a bit of a relief 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I pulled the lids off each before making up the cables just to confirm what you see in the web site pics is exactly what you get for real (silly notion that you wouldn't, but it's worth checking).

 I'm going to work on the balanced can cable either later on this evening or first thing tomorrow morning. I briefly listened in SE'd mode with the 650's. I liked it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 That's all for a few days at least....now comes the lengthy burn in.............

 Peete.


----------



## moonboy403

Given that the Phoenix is about 14 inches in depth, can anyone tell me the length between the front and the back aluminum feet(inclusive of the aluminum feet please)?

 My shelve's is only about 10 inches in depth. That's why I'm asking.

 Thanks.


----------



## haloxt

11.75", diameter of the foot is 1.5", the point at which it touches the ground is pretty small, as you can see on the picture of the footing on the Phoenix page. I'd say the bare minimum would be 10.5" shelf, and by bare minimum I mean don't budge it at all lol.


----------



## moonboy403

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_11.75", diameter of the foot is 1.5", the point at which it touches the ground is pretty small, as you can see on the picture of the footing on the Phoenix page. I'd say the bare minimum would be 10.5" shelf, and by bare minimum I mean don't budge it at all lol._

 

Thanks. 

 Man, time to relocate my rig. 

 Do you guys usually have you rig on the left or right?


----------



## tim3320070

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *moonboy403* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks. 

 Man, time to relocate my rig. 

 Do you guys usually have you rig on the left or right?_

 

That's kind of a personal question, isn't it?


----------



## nirvana_1911

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tim3320070* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's kind of a personal question, isn't it?_

 

lol!


----------



## seacard

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *moonboy403* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks. 

 Man, time to relocate my rig. 

 Do you guys usually have you rig on the left or right?_

 

I find that sound quality improves vastly when you put it on the left.


----------



## Aleatoris

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *seacard* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I find that sound quality improves vastly when you put it on the left._

 

I call shenanigans! It always sounds better on the RIGHT.


----------



## moonboy403

DHL has just dropped off my Phoenix! I'm so excited! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 And magically, the back says RCA instead of PCA although the numbering's still corrected with stickers.


----------



## IPodPJ

You'll be having yourself a good ol' time today.


----------



## Bob Jones

Well,mine hasn't shipped YET.Kingwa said the workers messed up and will ship on the 7th.I hope I get it by the weekend.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bob Jones* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well,mine hasn't shipped YET.Kingwa said the workers messed up and will ship on the 7th.I hope I get it by the weekend._

 

No dinner for them for a week! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 By the way, today is the 7th.


----------



## moonboy403

The Phoenix is very good sounding on first impression. Like the SP Extreme, the Phoenix has a wide open soundstage with very good depth and width but it bests the Extreme in terms of low-level detail. 

 There isn't any low volume channel imbalance problem, not even on 1/99 steps volume.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *moonboy403* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The Phoenix is very good sounding on first impression. Like the SP Extreme, the Phoenix has a wide open soundstage with very good depth and width but it bests the Extreme in terms of low-level detail. 

 There isn't any low volume channel imbalance problem, not even on 1/99 steps volume._

 

Please don't compare to Single Power! That should insult just about everybody. 

 There cannot be an imbalance by the nature of how the Vol Control works, at least in comparison to how a Variable attenuator works.

 .


----------



## ServinginEcuador

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No dinner for them for a week! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 By the way, today is the 7th._

 

Isn't it the 8th in China?


----------



## moonboy403

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Please don't compare to Single Power! That should insult just about everybody. 

 There cannot be an imbalance by the nature of how the Vol Control works, at least in comparison to how a Variable attenuator works.

 ._

 

Whether you like it or not, the SP Extreme sounds very very good and my opinion still holds even after listening to all the amps at Canjam which ranges from $300 to $5000. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ServinginEcuador* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Isn't it the 8th in China? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Yes.


----------



## Bob Jones

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ServinginEcuador* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Isn't it the 8th in China? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Still no word.I hope to hear "Something" by the 9th,and if not something is wrong!


----------



## Yikes

Well after 300 hours of continuous play I have now started turning the Phoenix off at night. I'd say that the difference between the sound Cold and the sound after about an hour of warm up is greater than the difference when new (Warm) and that after 300 hours of break-in. Meaning? Break-in matters but not as much as some other amps I've encountered.

 I'm still enjoying the hell out of the Phoenix. Congratulations to those who are just receiving their own Phoenix. 

 Enjoy.


----------



## Currawong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well after 300 hours of continuous play I have now started turning the Phoenix off at night. I'd say that the difference between the sound Cold and the sound after about an hour of warm up is greater than the difference when new (Warm) and that after 300 hours of break-in. Meaning? Break-in matters but not as much as some other amps I've encountered.

 I'm still enjoying the hell out of the Phoenix. Congratulations to those who are just receiving their own Phoenix. 

 Enjoy._

 

X2 this. The bass seems to have come out a tiny bit more with burn-in. 

 Interesting to read about the Singlepower comparison. For me, with HD-800's, it has bested my Stax rig, which I absolutely love otherwise. I hadn't believed that a dynamic rig could come anywhere close to what electrostats could do.

 Bob: I'd email them again to find out what's happened.


----------



## pompon

I have SP MPX3 and Dragon (Maestro level) ... those compared are a pure value for me.

 If it's not clearly better than Extreme .. no way will good enough to rival with the Dragon.

 I look the Phoenix for balanced used ... I am not sure I will not looking toward the best tube balanced ... like TTJV, B52, WA22 ... But tubes it's a bit of trouble ... but easy to repair if something append. But SS I can let them ON all time ... and I like that.

 Not easy choice.


----------



## IPodPJ

The TTVJ 307A is clearly not the best tube amp for the HD800. Many people have already stated how bad it sounds with them, but how it sounds excellent with other headphones. I heard the 307A with the HD800 at CanJam and thought it was a terrible pairing. The B52 and WA22 paired very well with the HD800.


----------



## n_maher

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The TTVJ 307A is clearly not the best tube amp for the HD800. Many people have already stated how bad it sounds with them, but how it sounds excellent with other headphones._

 

Many? How about you just stick to what you know and your impressions?


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *n_maher* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Many? How about you just stick to what you know and your impressions?_

 

How about you don't presume how many people I spoke with at CanJam that listened to the 307A with the HD800 and were less than thrilled. In addition, there are several posts on Head-Fi saying the exact same thing. I heard the combo so I am well within my right to give my _impression_ of it.


----------



## pompon

I try to send an email to audio-dg ... : audio-gd@126.com

 I got a "Delivery Status Notification (Failure)" ...

 It's strange ... Another email to contact them ?


----------



## moonboy403

That's odd. I used that email address all the time before I finally ordered the Phoenix.


----------



## IPodPJ

That is the correct e-mail. I noticed you typed "Audio-dg" which is incorrect. It's Audio-gd. So maybe you typed the e-mail wrong.


----------



## doping panda

It probably just means their server is down again. It happens from time to time.


----------



## pompon

Nope, I was using the email link in the webpage: audio-gd@126.com

 This email don't work ... it's mailbox full ?

 If server down, I will try tomorrow.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pompon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Nope, I was using the email link in the webpage: audio-gd@126.com

 This email don't work ... it's mailbox full ?

 If server down, I will try tomorrow._

 

It's not down, I've been corresponding with Kingwa and sent him an e-mail after your first post on the issue. I received their automatic confirmation e-mail as always. You must be entering it wrong.


----------



## pompon

I sent it with my gmail account and it's work ... probably my provider "sympatico" have a trouble to reach that email address.


----------



## n_maher

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How about you don't presume how many people I spoke with at CanJam that listened to the 307A with the HD800 and were less than thrilled. In addition, there are several posts on Head-Fi saying the exact same thing. I heard the combo so I am well within my right to give my impression of it._

 

Yes, you're free to offer your opinion, I never said otherwise. But I was at CanJam as well, I spoke with people, read and posted in the impressions thread, etc, etc. Honestly, I think your excitement for this hobby is great but you do yourself and the gear you love a disservice by going absolutely bonkers all the time. Don't feel like you have to always been on high-alert defense mode for even the slightest hint that someone else might mention that they might like something else in this thread.


----------



## tim3320070

.


----------



## punk_guy182

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pompon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I sent it with my gmail account and it's work ... probably my provider "sympatico" have a trouble to reach that email address._

 

Sympatico sux big time!


----------



## dallan

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How about you don't presume how many people I spoke with at CanJam that listened to the 307A with the HD800 and were less than thrilled. In addition, there are several posts on Head-Fi saying the exact same thing. I heard the combo so I am well within my right to give my impression of it._

 


 Just for the record, I think that I was one of the people who talked to PJ about the 307A lack of luster with the HD800s and he said he had already heard from other people the same thing and he felt it too. It didn't seem like a good match to me and I was very surprised because I like Todd's stuff and am committed to going to him at or near the top of my list before I look elsewhere for audio needs. For some reason that amp sounded thin to me with the 800s, just not a good full sound like some of the others. There were several amps that didn't match well and several that surprised me when they did.


----------



## Yikes

today another phoenix owner and i were discussing it's performance. we both agreed that we were sort of waiting for the other shoe to drop, meaning that we are having a tough time believing that it's really this good. we keep waiting for the flaws to rear thier ugly heads, and up to this point they haven't.

 so far the phoenix offers a begiling mixture of sweetness and resolution while also offering up all of the slam and authority that one could ask for. it seems to good to be true, so we find ourselves hunting for things to complain about, and for the most part failing. 

 personal tastes varying to the extent that they do means that there's no such beast as a perfect amplifier, but the phoenix comes amazingly close.

 ymmv, but not much.


----------



## moonboy403

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_today another phoenix owner and i were discussing it's performance. we both agreed that we were sort of waiting for the other shoe to drop, meaning that we are having a tough time believing that it's really this good. we keep waiting for the flaws to rear thier ugly heads, and up to this point they haven't.

 so far the *phoenix offers a begiling mixture of sweetness and resolution while also offering up all of the slam and authority that one could ask for*. it seems to good to be true, so we find ourselves *hunting for things to complain about, and for the most part failing*. 

 personal tastes varying to the extent that they do means that there's no such beast as a perfect amplifier, but the phoenix comes amazingly close.

 ymmv, but not much._

 

X2. I'll see how the Phoenix stacks up with other high end offering such as a balanced b22.


----------



## Bob Jones

Something seems to be up because I still haven't recieved info one way or the other if my Phoenix shipped.It was supposed to ship the 5th then the 7th.Sent another e-mail,must admit a little frustrated.


----------



## squall343

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bob Jones* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Something seems to be up because I still haven't recieved info one way or the other if my Phoenix shipped.It was supposed to ship the 5th then the 7th.Sent another e-mail,must admit a little frustrated._

 

most likely 12th if not ship on 5th


----------



## Bob Jones

Just heard from Kingwa,says it shipped the 8th.Guess I'll recieve it next week.


----------



## moonboy403

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bob Jones* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just heard from Kingwa,says it shipped the 8th.Guess I'll recieve it next week._

 

If Audio-Gd shipped on the 8th which actually means 7th to us since China's a day ahead, you should be receiving the Phoenix today or tomorrow. I received mine 2 days after I got the shipping notice.


----------



## Charnwood

How are people finding Phoenix when used as a preamp? Kingwa told me there wasn't much difference between the C-8SE and Phoenix before I ordered the Phoenix at the end of last month.

 Thank you to all the posters here who help me make that decision.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *moonboy403* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_X2. I'll see how the Phoenix stacks up with other high end offering such as a balanced b22. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

x3. And we'll get to compare it in only 2 more days.

 I received my replacement side panel yesterday. At least the outside isn't all scratched up.


----------



## Shahrose

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_x3. And we'll get to compare it in only 2 more days.

 I received my replacement side panel yesterday. At least the outside isn't all scratched up._

 

This is a comparison that I (and surely some others) are eagerly awaiting. I was close to getting a Beta commissioned but will wait to read this comparison. If the Phoenix can get even close to the balanced Beta, then it's an excellent bargain, considering I was quoted north of $2000 for a balanced Beta.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Charnwood* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How are people finding Phoenix when used as a preamp? Kingwa told me there wasn't much difference between the C-8SE and Phoenix before I ordered the Phoenix at the end of last month.

 Thank you to all the posters here who help me make that decision._

 

It's very very good.

 Peete.


----------



## LaidBack

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Charnwood* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How are people finding Phoenix when used as a preamp?_

 

I've been using the Phoenix pre-amp to drive a NHT Xd 2.2 system. I can't offer comparisons to an array of other pre-amps, but the Phoenix/NHT combo does sound excellent. I'm very pleased with the Phoenix as a pre and HP amp...


----------



## seacard

I think I know the answer, but has anybody had a chance (or foresee having a chance in the future) to compare the Phoenix with the HeadRoom Balanced Ultra?


----------



## pompon

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Shahrose* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This is a comparison that I (and surely some others) are eagerly awaiting. I was close to getting a Beta commissioned but will wait to read this comparison. If the Phoenix can get even close to the balanced Beta, then it's an excellent bargain, considering I was quoted north of $2000 for a balanced Beta._

 

They seem to said at this point that will be better than B22.

 I am waiting that too to take my final decision.

 IPOdPJ : Don't listen just 1 kind of music. Try to cover the popular style of music.


----------



## moonboy403

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pompon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*They seem to said at this point that will be better than B22.*

 I am waiting that too to take my final decision.

 IPOdPJ : Don't listen just 1 kind of music. Try to cover the popular style of music._

 

Nobody ever said that. So far, only Doug said that he likes the Phoenix better than a SE B22. We'll have plenty of comparisons come this Sunday though.


----------



## FallenAngel

You EVIL EVIL people, now I'm thinking I'll have to grab one of these for myself to compare.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *seacard* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think I know the answer, but has anybody had a chance (or foresee having a chance in the future) to compare the Phoenix with the HeadRoom Balanced Ultra?_

 

Not directly, but I already know my answer on this. I did not like the BUDA/UDAC combo at all with the HD800. I don't know how well it does with other headphones, though. And you know how I feel about the Phoenix.


----------



## ServinginEcuador

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Not directly, but I already know my answer on this. I did not like the BUDA/UDAC combo at all with the HD800. I don't know how well it does with other headphones, though. And you know how I feel about the Phoenix._

 

I'm of the same mind in this respect: didn't care for the rig at all when I listened to it at CanJam. I spent about 15 minutes with it in the room while it was quiet, and left unimpressed.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *FallenAngel* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You EVIL EVIL people, now I'm thinking I'll have to grab one of these for myself to compare._

 


 Perhaps you could loop around to the LA meet and evaluate it?

 .


----------



## glitch39

anyone from NorCal with a Phoenix yet and can bring it to next month's mini-meet?


----------



## FallenAngel

Hope so, I'll bring a balanced Beta22 and a Dynamid (balanced Dynalo)

 Would love to compare


----------



## DoYouRight

let me know fallen 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I am really curious about this compare


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ServinginEcuador* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm of the same mind in this respect: didn't care for the rig at all when I listened to it at CanJam. I spent about 15 minutes with it in the room while it was quiet, and left unimpressed._

 

I felt like asking: "Can you please disconnect your UDAC so I can hear this really nice Wadia sitting here that you're only using as a transport?" But I figured that might come across as rude and didn't want Tyll to be offended.


----------



## moonboy403

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I felt like asking: "Can you please disconnect your UDAC so I can hear this really nice Wadia sitting here that you're only using as a transport?" But I figured that might come across as rude and didn't want Tyll to be offended. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

That would've hurt a little bit. It's like saying "okay, your stuff sucks, let me listen to some REAL gear here. "


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Perhaps you could loop around to the LA meet and evaluate it?

 ._

 

x2. I'd love if you could come, FallenAngel, and bring you balanced B22 and Dynamid. I still have a few spots left open. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It's going to be one hell of a meet.


----------



## n_maher

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I felt like asking: "Can you please disconnect your UDAC so I can hear this really nice Wadia sitting here that you're only using as a transport?" But I figured that might come across as rude and didn't want Tyll to be offended. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

It still came off as rude even when you said it this time.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *moonboy403* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That would've hurt a little bit. It's like saying "okay, your stuff sucks, let me listen to some REAL gear here. " 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Come on now. Please don't try to add fuel to the fire. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 He might have taken it that way and that's what I wanted to avoid. But obviously his gear doesn't suck because lots of people love it. It just wasn't my cup of tea.


----------



## moonboy403

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Come on now. Please don't try to add fuel to the fire. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 He might have taken it that way and that's what I wanted to avoid. But obviously his gear doesn't suck because lots of people love it. It just wasn't my cup of tea._

 

I apologize if it came on as adding fuel to the fire. I really meant it as a joke.


----------



## The Monkey

I don't know how people can get form a meaningful impression of a source at a meet. In my experience, it takes a while to even begin to discern what to attribute to the source as opposed to the amp or phones, etc. Maybe I'm just dumb.


----------



## seacard

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *The Monkey* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Maybe I'm just dumb._

 

Nah, just deaf.


----------



## lmswjm

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LaidBack* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've been using the Phoenix pre-amp to drive a NHT Xd 2.2 system. I can't offer comparisons to an array of other pre-amps, but the Phoenix/NHT combo does sound excellent. I'm very pleased with the Phoenix as a pre and HP amp..._

 

X2 to that! Truly amazing.


----------



## The Monkey

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *seacard* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Nah, just deaf. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Heh, no wonder it's been so hard!


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *The Monkey* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't know how people can get form a meaningful impression of a source at a meet. In my experience, it takes a while to even begin to discern what to attribute to the source as opposed to the amp or phones, etc. Maybe I'm just dumb._

 

No, you're not dumb. You're absolutely correct. I wasn't referring to the tonal balance or quality of soundstage and detail, though. I was referring to how edgy and digital it sounded (as opposed to a more natural, analog sound), which isn't something you need a lot of time to listen to.


----------



## moonboy403

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *seacard* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Nah, just deaf. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

That was uncalled for. Hopefully, you were just joking.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *The Monkey* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't know how people can get form a meaningful impression of a source at a meet. In my experience, it takes a while to even begin to discern what to attribute to the source as opposed to the amp or phones, etc. Maybe I'm just dumb._

 

I personally had a very hard time just concentrating on listening at Canjam as the environment was less than ideal due to noise and unfamiliarity with other rigs.


----------



## The Monkey

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *moonboy403* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That was uncalled for. Hopefully, you were just joking._

 

No worries. I'm pretty sure it was a joke and took it as such. At least, I thought it was funny.

 As for coming to a conclusion about how analog or digital the DAC sounds, I frankly don't have enough critical analog listening experience to make such conclusions.


----------



## n_maher

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *moonboy403* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I personally had a very hard time just concentrating on listening at Canjam as the environment was less than ideal due to noise and unfamiliarity with other rigs._

 

You're not alone Gary, meets (while great and wonderful things) are pretty difficult places to get to know gear. Can you get an impression sure, but I'd never base my entire opinion of something around one day's worth of experience (not to mention a short burst of a few songs).

 But like the Monkey I seem to be in the minority, oh well.


----------



## moonboy403

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *n_maher* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You're not alone Gary, meets (while great and wonderful things) are pretty difficult places to get to know gear. Can you get an impression sure, but I'd never base my entire opinion of something around one day's worth of experience (not to mention a short burst of a few songs).

 But like the Monkey I seem to be in the minority, oh well._

 

After attending Canjam which was my first meet experience, I thought that it was more about listening for sound signatures that one prefers and just enjoy the whole experience while socializing with other members. 

 Listening to open cans was pretty bad at Canjam except inside Headroom's. Incidentally, Headroom was the only place that had the "Keep Quiet" sign up.


----------



## ServinginEcuador

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *The Monkey* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't know how people can get form a meaningful impression of a source at a meet. In my experience, it takes a while to even begin to discern what to attribute to the source as opposed to the amp or phones, etc. Maybe I'm just dumb._

 

You're not dumb at all. But, after years and years of experience it makes it easier when auditioning new gear. Bring familiar music and you can get a pretty good idea of a rig's sound signature. It will take time to get the nuances and subtleties down, but at least you can get a quick starting point to work from.

 I'd gladly spend a few weeks with the UDAC in my rig to see how I liked it. I am not sure if the rig used at the CanJam was synergistic with the HD800, or if it could be improved upon with a source/interconnect/power filtering change???


----------



## seacard

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *moonboy403* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That was uncalled for. Hopefully, you were just joking._

 

Darn, I knew I should have used a different smiley. The grin just isn't big enough on that one. Maybe I should use two next time, just to make sure there is no confusion. How about this combo: 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 / 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. Or maybe 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 / 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.

 But I knew that Monkey, as a fellow lawyer (heck, it sounds like a fellow big-firm lawyer) would understand.


----------



## The Monkey

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ServinginEcuador* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'd gladly spend a few weeks with the UDAC in my rig to see how I liked it. I am not sure if the rig used at the CanJam was synergistic with the HD800, or if it could be improved upon with a source/interconnect/power filtering change??? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I have a UDAC in my rig right now along with an ECD-1 and another DAC on the way (
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) so I hope to offer some impressions down the road.


----------



## The Monkey

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *seacard* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_But I knew that Monkey, as a fellow lawyer (heck, it sounds like a fellow big-firm lawyer) would understand._

 

Indeed. I'm a BigLaw refugee!


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *The Monkey* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have a UDAC in my rig right now along with an ECD-1 and another DAC on the way (
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) so I hope to offer some impressions down the road._

 

What _OTHER_ DAC? 

 You have the sickness!


----------



## LaidBack

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *lmswjm* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_X2 to that! Truly amazing._

 

Yeah, the Phoenix/NHT Xd combo sure sounds great! Please send pics of your XdS mounted on Sanus Naturals when you have a chance, I've got my finger on the buy trigger...


----------



## deathg0d

anyone tried with larvy da 11?


----------



## Born2bwire

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *n_maher* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It still came off as rude even when you said it this time._

 

In all fairness, Tyll's wardrobe has offended us all enough to the point where I do not see why he deserves any consideration in return.


----------



## lmswjm

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LaidBack* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yeah, the Phoenix/NHT Xd combo sure sounds great! Please send pics of your XdS mounted on Sanus Naturals when you have a chance, I've got my finger on the buy trigger..._

 

Here you go. Couldn't figure out how to PM this, so I apologize to the other members for the off topic pix.


----------



## guitarplayer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *n_maher* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You're not alone Gary, meets (while great and wonderful things) are pretty difficult places to get to know gear. Can you get an impression sure, but I'd never base my entire opinion of something around one day's worth of experience (not to mention a short burst of a few songs).

 But like the Monkey I seem to be in the minority, oh well._

 

I'm with you guys on this point. Well said.

 Peace, 

 Lee


----------



## guitarplayer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_x2. I'd love if you could come, FallenAngel, and bring you balanced B22 and Dynamid. I still have a few spots left open. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 It's going to be one hell of a meet._

 

Man, what a meet. Great work organizing it Phil. Wish I could be there.

 Peace, 

 Lee


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *lmswjm* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Here you go. Couldn't figure out how to PM this, so I apologize to the other members for the off topic pix._

 

Man those are sweet little mini monitors. Is there a sub in this mix is my natural first question/thought ?

 Some Phoenix preamp mode thoughts vs my (DIY) modified Adcom GFP-750 preamp.

 I compared the Phoenix to my heavily upgraded Adcom GFP-750 SS preamp last evening with the Phoenix (completely) outclassing the Adcom in every area imaginable. The strength of the Adcom is it's passive mode but even this was no match whatsoever for the Phoenix. This test of course was using my main 2 channel system since I'm better able to evaluate aspects headphones simply can't deliver on (even the 800's I would imagine although I can't be 100% sure...yet). Anyway I expected a closer race with the upgraded Adcom and was not given that close race. No question here that the Phoenix took all the usual categories (SNR, voicing, transparency, imaging, dynamics, frequency extension, texture etc etc). No contest as it turned out. The Adcom sounded like a POS compared to the Phoenix.

 Peete.


----------



## LaidBack

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *lmswjm* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Here you go. Couldn't figure out how to PM this, so I apologize to the other members for the off topic pix._

 

Thanks for the pics, I appreciate it. Great choice/job you did there to increase the height...


----------



## LaidBack

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Man those are sweet little mini monitors. Is there a sub in this mix is my natural first question/thought ?_

 

They have a much bigger sound than meets the eye. Those sat's are packed with very nice drivers, and from what I've gathered, the best and most expensive NHT has ever used. The Xd 2.2 system has 2 sub units(the XdW), 500w and 2 10-inch woofers per unit. Sorry for the OT, here's a link to the product page: NHT - Speakers -Xd Special Dark Sale! Last chance!


----------



## tim3320070

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Man those are sweet little mini monitors. Is there a sub in this mix is my natural first question/thought ?

 Some Phoenix preamp mode thoughts vs my (DIY) modified Adcom GFP-750 preamp.

 I compared the Phoenix to my heavily upgraded Adcom GFP-750 SS preamp last evening with the Phoenix (completely) outclassing the Adcom in every area imaginable. The strength of the Adcom is it's passive mode but even this was no match whatsoever for the Phoenix. This test of course was using my main 2 channel system since I'm better able to evaluate aspects headphones simply can't deliver on (even the 800's I would imagine although I can't be 100% sure...yet). Anyway I expected a closer race with the upgraded Adcom and was not given that close race. No question here that the Phoenix took all the usual categories (SNR, voicing, transparency, imaging, dynamics, frequency extension, texture etc etc). No contest as it turned out. The Adcom sounded like a POS compared to the Phoenix.

 Peete._

 

I had a stock 565 which I thought was great until I put the FBI-500 in there (basically the same preamp as Phoenix). It was sold soon after. Not to mention all the Carver stuff I had which is all gone.


----------



## Nada

Quote:


 Originally Posted by Pricklely Peete: I compared the Phoenix to my heavily upgraded Adcom GFP-750 SS preamp last evening with the Phoenix (completely) outclassing the Adcom in every area imaginable. The strength of the Adcom is it's passive mode but even this was no match whatsoever for the Phoenix. This test of course was using my main 2 channel system since I'm better able to evaluate aspects headphones simply can't deliver on (even the 800's I would imagine although I can't be 100% sure...yet). Anyway I expected a closer race with the upgraded Adcom and was not given that close race. No question here that the Phoenix took all the usual categories (SNR, voicing, transparency, imaging, dynamics, frequency extension, texture etc etc). No contest as it turned out. The Adcom sounded like a POS compared to the Phoenix. 
 

Peete - thanks for this very interesting comparison and posting your impressions. 
 I wonder if you will be doing a longer comparison in the future?
 I dont know the Adcom you have but the Stereophile review of the unmodded pre-amp I found gave it the highest praise (Stereophile: Adcom GFP-750 preamplifier). I wonder how the mods changed its performance?


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Nada* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Peete - thanks for this very interesting comparison and posting your impressions. 
 I wonder if you will be doing a longer comparison in the future?
 I dont know the Adcom you have but the Stereophile review of the unmodded pre-amp I found gave it the highest praise (Stereophile: Adcom GFP-750 preamplifier). I wonder how the mods changed its performance?_

 

Well all in good time since I've only had the Phoenix for 5 days now. The mods on the Adcom opened up it up quite a bit. The stock parts were a mix of the good with the horrible (to meet the price point I imagine). The bottom line being, the active section is now the equal of the passive which it was not in stock form. The overall boost in performance made the work and expense well worth it but the Adcom even modified heavily does not hold a candle to the Phoenix...I wish I could demonstrate this in person...you'd quickly agree.

 EDIT: The Stereophile review and Class A rating is the reason why I bought one 8 years ago. It's a good preamp but it's not a great preamp. It's much better now of course but the Phoenix is still in another league altogether. 

 Peete.


----------



## lmswjm

I wanted to give some limited impressions of synergy with some popular headphones with the Phoenix. First off, I'd like to say that I'm a bit of a bass-head in that my home listening is primarily baroque chamber music and acoustic jazz. I like an up close/impactful presentation and these genres can be inherently bass light. Thus, many well respected phones don't fit the bill for me. I have been attracted to the Denon signature because of this. Point of reference is the D5000 which I mod'd to a semi-open design to reduce bloat and add upper extension. I've been quite satisfied with this phone for a while. 

 With an acute case of upgrade-itis, I wanted to try some new phones with the Phoenix. First candidate was the Senn HD800. It just didn't do it for me. Though I knew the D5000 was the inferior phone, it still delivered more slam / dynamics than the 800's. I kind of sensed that the 800's cable was holding it back, but didn't think that a cable swap would be enough for me. The other issue is that this phone has the loudest outside volume than any other open back headphone I've tried. It almost seemed louder off my head than on. Suffice it to say this phone is on it's way back to Montana right now. 

 The night I packed up the Senn's for good, came the notice that J&R had the D7000's back in stock. The D7000 simply toasted my D5000's. More upper extension, bass extension and control. More detail, clarity, liquidity, palpability, etc., etc. This phone makes me feel like I'm listening to an open design. So crisp and clean, there was no desire to swap out the cord. It reproduces drums like no other I've heard. On a good recording, you can hear the texture of the drum head and the attack like your'e the one behind the kit. After two nights of listening, I had no reservation about cutting the end of the cord off and doing the Kingwa 4 pin balance conversion. Great Neutrik parts, and directions yielded a very nice finished product. I love that 4 pin XLR connector. As anticipated, the phone was a lot easier to drive afterwards. It had better instrument separation and bass control, but not a night and day difference. After A/B ing for a while, it was apparent that I preferred balanced op. The 7000's are currently giving my Xd speaker system a run for their money. We'll see how they fair with the addition of the RE1 and CD7 next month!


----------



## tim3320070

Can you describe in more detail of the Phoenix sound with the balanced D7000? What is your source, is it balanced?
 Thanks


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Interesting thoughts about the D7000's Inswjm ! Your input adds another can to the "works well with " list. 

 Has anyone reported on the 650's performance (with a high quality balanced cable ) yet ?

 My diy cable is giving me trouble with one of the Cardas connectors....sigh. Driving me nuts more like. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Peete.


----------



## lmswjm

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tim3320070* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Can you describe in more detail of the Phoenix sound with the balanced D7000? What is your source, is it balanced?
 Thanks_

 

I don't know how else to describe the sound except to say that for me it's the perfect balance of upper end extension / detail while still maintaining it's lower end extension / detail _and_ dynamic punch / slam. The best of both worlds. Mids are simply beautiful.

 My source is a Shanling PCD300A player used as a transport S/PDIF'd (RCA) to a Crane Song HEDD 192 (Pro-audio AD/DA converters) with balanced outputs.


----------



## IPodPJ

We had a huge Balanced B22 vs. Phoenix showdown at the L.A. Meet. We used my system with the same Audio-gd power cord, XLR Sharkwire interconnects, DAC, transport, balanced HD800, etc. The only thing we changed were the amps.

 At first I felt the balanced B22 (4-channel version) actually was a good deal better than the Phoenix. It took more listening time until I felt they each had significant benefits. Everyone that listened shared their opinions and will post them. It turned out to be about 60% in favor of the balanced B22 and 40% in favor of the Phoenix. I was surprised that I favored the Balanced B22 initially but I always tell the truth. At this point, I was kind of saddened.

 I truly believe the Phoenix to be the more neutral of the amps. I have to see what it sounds like with the REF1 and running with CAST cables in another few weeks. I would like an amp to be somewhere between the Phoenix and the balanced B22.

 The balanced B22 had better dynamics, wider and more focused soundstage, more apparent detail and better bass. However the bass seemed to be on the heavy side, the midrange seemed a tad recessed, and the treble a little too hot. I tend to favor this flavor, but it did not sound neutral to me.

 The Phoenix had the blackest background of any amp I've heard (but both amps are very transparent). The midrange was more present and the tonal balance more accurate. The Phoenix has a much smoother presentation and I find that I would get fatigued with the balanced B22 after maybe 45 minutes to an hour. The balanced B22 also had plenty of headroom and can drive the HD800s easily.

 So both amps have their benefits and I would love to own both. But for the price of the Phoenix, it is still the clear winner. The owner of the balanced B22 was impressed with both and would love to have either.

 To give you an idea of who preferred what and what headphones they use, this guide may help:

 HD800 owners - toss up down the middle, some prefer Phoenix, some prefer balanced B22
 D7000 and DX1000 owners - preferred balanced B22
 K70x, HD650, L3000 owners - preferred Phoenix

 To me, the balanced B22 with the HD800 almost sounded like the amp had a sonic signature/curve similar to that of the D7000. Unfortunately I don't know if this was my DAC of the amp. With my DAC and the Phoenix though, the sound is neutral.

 But make no mistake, these are both world-class headphone amps and should be on the top of anyone's list. They both remain the best SS headphone amps I've ever heard. I should say my girlfriend who has noticed many things about my system in the past and has been right about most of them preferred the Phoenix by a wide margin. Her actual words about the balanced B22 are, "God, I don't like it at all." Unfortunately, we don't share the same opinion.

 So that's all for now. For most impressions, please visit the L.A. Meet impressions thread.


----------



## moonboy403

From my meet impression: "Let's get right to it: Balanced B22 and Phoenix. Here was how the testing went, we used the same dac, cables, power cords and did quick switching between the two amps. Using the HD800, it was really a toss up between the two IMO. I did not detect a whole of of difference between the amps but if I REALLY have to pick one, I would pick the B22. It sounded a little bit more aggressive, dynamic, and lively IMO, but it could be due to the lack of exact volume matching on my part. I did what I could to match the volume by ears."


----------



## The Monkey

iPod and moonboy, thank you for those observations. Regardless of which one you guys prefer in the end, it's a pretty sound endorsement if the Phoenix runs neck and neck with the B22.


----------



## tim3320070

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *moonboy403* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_From my meet impression: "Let's get right to it: Balanced B22 and Phoenix. Here was how the testing went, we used the same dac, cables, power cords and did quick switching between the two amps. Using the HD800, it was really a toss up between the two IMO. I did not detect a whole of of difference between the amps but if I REALLY have to pick one, I would pick the B22. It sounded a little bit more aggressive, dynamic, and lively IMO, but it could be due to the lack of exact volume matching on my part. I did what I could to match the volume by ears."_

 

If it's that close, that is quite a compliment for the Phoenix given it's price.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *The Monkey* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_iPod and moonboy, thank you for those observations. Regardless of which one you guys prefer in the end, it's a pretty sound endorsement if the Phoenix runs neck and neck with the B22._

 

Yeah, it really is. They are both world-class performers and anyone should be thrilled to own either one. It really came down to preference, but both are equally superb.

 I'm glad we were able to do the showdown for you guys.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Thanks PJ...I take it the weekend was a big success, lots of fun had by all etc ? 

 Considering how good the balanced B22 is I'm pretty enthusiastic by the meet results. A close 2nd to a B22 is a good spot to be IMO. 

 I'll certainly be looking forward to your opinion of the Phoenix using the RE1 CAST option to see if it close's that gap between the 2 amps a little more. 

 Peete.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks PJ...I take it the weekend was a big success, lots of fun had by all etc ? 

 Considering how good the balanced B22 is I'm pretty enthusiastic by the meet results. A close 2nd to a B22 is a good spot to be IMO. 

 I'll certainly be looking forward to your opinion of the Phoenix using the RE1 CAST option to see if it close's that gap between the 2 amps a little more. 

 Peete._

 

I have a feeling it will, Peete. Of course that's only an assumption for now and obviously I will let you know how it pans out. You should have seen people's reaction when I told them initially I thought the balanced B22 edged out the Phoenix. They said in astonishment, "You!?!??!? Oh no!!"

 Also, there are other factors which may have played into this as well. First of all, both Dave and my noise harvesters were going crazy. There was tons of line noise in the meet room. Secondly, I had to keep disconnecting the Phoenix so it was never on straight for 3 - 4 hours which it needs to be in optimal conditions. So I gave the best assessment I could given the circumstances. If someone ever wanted to loan me a balanced B22, I could be a lot more thorough in the review.

 I can say for certain (imo) that the Phoenix easily beat the quad-mono Rudistor RPX-100. That also had a DL3 hooked up to it, but not a modded DL3 like mine so I am taking that into consideration as well.

 And surprisingly I enjoyed the Sony SA5000 whereas I hated the Qualia 010. Are they as good as the HD800? Not by a long shot but I liked the presentation they offered and I don't feel they have a closed in soundstage like others have mentioned, at least not with the Phoenix. The music sounds a little distant but it all seemed pretty well balanced to me, whereas others felt the tonality was way off.

 The headphone that I hated the most at the meet was the Beyerdynamic DT48e. I have absolutely no idea how anyone could listen to this headphone for more than 2 seconds. The sound is godawful and is extremely closed in. Everything sounds so muffled and distorted. I really don't understand the appeal of these.

 Another headphone that was interesting was the AKG K240. It didn't sound bad but it required more juice than any other headphone I've ever used. I literally had to turn the volume up on the Phoenix to two and half times past the point where it would blow the HD800 drivers. I have no idea what the sensitivity rating of the K240 is but I have no idea how most headphone amps could even drive these to any level other than very quiet.


----------



## sandchak

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have a feeling it will, Peete. Of course that's only an assumption for now and obviously I will let you know how it pans out. You should have seen people's reaction when I told them initially I thought the balanced B22 edged out the Phoenix. They said in astonishment, "You!?!??!? Oh no!!"_

 

Thanks PJ for organizing such a great meet, if I was from that part of the world, I am sure I would have been there..
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I am sure with the REF1 in the chain, it will make much difference, but for comparison sake, it would have the same effect on B22, so in my opinion the B22 still has a edge over Phoenix.

 That being said, considering the price of Phoenix and the fact that it still manages give the B22 a run for its money, makes me believe that Audio GD has achieved in producing one of the best SS amps in the market - Good for us !..


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sandchak* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks PJ for organizing such a great meet, if I was from that part of the world, I am sure I would have been there..
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I am sure with the REF1 in the chain, it will make much difference, but for comparison sake, it would have the same effect on B22, so in my opinion the B22 still has a edge over Phoenix.

 That being said, considering the price of Phoenix and the fact that it still manages give the B22 a run for its money, makes me believe that Audio GD has achieved in producing one of the best SS amps in the market - Good for us !..
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

It was my pleasure and we had a great group of people participating which made it so much fun. Many of the members on Head-Fi contribute to an amazing fellowship which makes it all worthwhile.

 Well over in the meet thread we are debating if the edge the B22 had was artificial and due to distortion. It could have given a false sense of detail and dynamics due to distortion and we are trying to figure out if that was the case. The B22 had the fun factor but the Phoenix is neutral which is what it was designed for. I would like to have AtomikPi come over one day so we can do a comparison in my home where it is quiet and spend a good deal of time doing evaluations on every level of the spectrum. Or it could be that the B22 was neutral and the DAC had a sound signature. Only testing this again with the REF1 will reveal the truth.

 And let's not forget that the Phoenix is truly a preamp at heart. That is where the insides were borrowed from. Some members have stated it outperforms (by a wide margin) $3000 - $5000 preamps. Since I don't have a speaker rig I am unable to verify this for myself.

 I also listened to santacore's C-2C and I was surprised at what a good amp it was. Considering the price it is an absolute steal.


----------



## FallenAngel

Can't imagine the Phoenix being more neutral than a balanced Beta22, that's already a crazy revealing amp. Really hoping somebody will bring one to the San Mateo meet in a few weeks.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *FallenAngel* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Can't imagine the Phoenix being more neutral than a balanced Beta22, that's already a crazy revealing amp. Really hoping somebody will bring one to the San Mateo meet in a few weeks._

 

Hopefully Gary will be able to bring it up there.


----------



## moonboy403

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hopefully Gary will be able to bring it up there._

 

Still waiting for an answer whether I can hitch a ride or not. If I do get a ride, I'll also consider bringing my newly acquired Electrocompaniet ECD-1 DAC.


----------



## sandchak

PJ, I agree with you on the spirit of the Head-Fi community, although I would not be able to comment on the distortion of B22 and neutrality of the Phoenix as I haven't heard either.

 But yes, the factor more important for me being the preamp section, which is very highly spoken about by users, would make the Phoenix my choice and it takes nothing away from quality of B22.

 I hope we get some more feedbacks and further comparisons like the meet Fallen Angel is talking about.

 All said and done, like Monkey said Phoenix is a pretty sound endorsement if it runs neck and neck with B22.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *moonboy403* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Still waiting for an answer whether I can hitch a ride or not. If I do get a ride, I'll also consider bringing my newly acquired Electrocompaniet ECD-1 DAC. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Congrats on that by the way. You'll have to come over soon so we can compare it to the RAM DL3 and the REF1 when it gets here.


----------



## moonboy403

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Congrats on that by the way. You'll have to come over soon so we can compare it to the RAM DL3 and the REF1 when it gets here. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 






 I didn't have a chance to audition your rig at all since everyone were in line to test the B22 against your Phoenix and the meet was noisy at times.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *moonboy403* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_





 I didn't have a chance to audition your rig at all since everyone were in line to test the B22 against your Phoenix and the meet was noisy at times._

 

Aww, buddy I'm sorry. Why didn't you say something before he left?


----------



## moonboy403

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Aww, buddy I'm sorry. Why didn't you say something before he left? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

Toward the end of the meet, I was exhausted and everything started to sound the same.


----------



## sandchak

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Kay Leonzio* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Things do not seem to be going that well in Audio-gd Phoenix land, at least not with the first few people who have their amps._

 

Your conclusion is based on??..
 ( as far as I read, the first batch of owners seem to be thrilled about Phoenix SQ)


----------



## Drosera

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sandchak* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Your conclusion is based on??..
 ( as far as I read, the first batch of owners seem to be thrilled about Phoenix SQ)_

 

Note the commercial links in the sig. Methinks we're dealing with 'creative' spam here.

 EDIT: Mr. Kay's equipment looks very impressive, but it's actually 'stolen' from *boomana*'s sig. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 [To the mods: feel free to delete this with the rest of the posts.]


----------



## sandchak

Thanks Dro, I didnt notice that, you seem to have keen eyes apart from good set of ears..


----------



## Currawong

Reported Kay's post. It's a spambot that is re-posting other people's posts.

 Don't forget that the Beta 22 is a DIY amp, so the exact sound would be dependant on the built somewhat. Also, the Beta 22 was designed primarily to drive headphones, whereas the Phoenix is based on a pre-amp.


----------



## sandchak

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Reported Kay's post. It's a spambot that is re-posting other people's posts.

 Don't forget that the Beta 22 is a DIY amp, so the exact sound would be dependant on the built somewhat. Also, the Beta 22 was designed primarily to drive headphones, whereas the Phoenix is based on a pre-amp._

 

You are absolutely correct Curra, thats what I just Pm'ed Drosera - the B22 although slightly superior than Phoenix (though there is still a slight doubt about B22 not being as neutral as Phoenix), it is a DIY - making the build quality dependent on the maker, and also at least for people like me, the preamp section of the Phoenix is surely a big plus, and more than anything else, I guess it is the price of Phoenix which makes it more attractive to me.


----------



## XXII

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sandchak* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You are absolutely correct Curra, thats what I just Pm'ed Drosera - the B22 although slightly superior than Phoenix (though there is still a slight doubt about B22 not being as neutral as Phoenix), it is a DIY - making the build quality dependent on the maker, and also at least for people like me, the preamp section of the Phoenix is surely a big plus, and more than anything else, I guess it is the price of Phoenix which makes it more attractive to me._

 

The Beta22 can be easily used as a preamp as well. In fact, it can even be used to drive speakers.


----------



## sandchak

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *XXII* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The Beta22 can be easily used as a preamp as well. In fact, it can even be used to drive speakers._

 

Thanks for pointing that out, and although I knew about it, I should have phrased my post more correctly. What I meant was that Phoenix is based more on a preamp. which makes the preamp section really good apart from headphone amp. I am not saying that the B22 does not do a good job as a preamp, but from what I have read out here about Phoenix, it seems to shine as Preamp.


----------



## Yikes

There are several issues that the comparisons with a B22 barely touch on.

 1) Production versus DIY or Private Commission -A production Amplifier will have very little unit to unit variation. A DIY unit is exactly that, the outcome is dependent on many factors: Builders Skill, Chosen configuration, Parts selection. 

 So when you order a Phoenix in about a month you'll receive the same amp that everyone has been writing about. If you decide to build a B22 you're gambling on your own skill and ability to choose the right parts and build it perfectly, and oh yeah enjoy the flexible warranty.

 2) Features - Sure the B22 can be used as a preamp or even to drive ultra efficient speakers. The fact however is that no one has built a B22 with the number of inputs and outputs, remote control, and ergonomic sophistication that the Phoenix offers. Could someone do so? Sure, maybe, but at what cost? The fact is that even the slickest B22's are fairly crude ergonomically compared to the Phoenix. So if you want remote controlled multiple inputs switched with remote relays with volume memory a B22 is not in the running.

 3) Time - How long does the average DIYer take to complete a B22? How long does it take for a commissioned B22 to be built? I believe that the lead time for a Phoenix is about a month.

 4) Cost - The Phoenix will now set a person back about $1350 delivered to the US. I haven't researched it but the impression I have gathered from my readings here is that is also about what a well configured B22 might cost someone who DIY's it(Not counting labor). A B22 is beyond the DIY ability of most members (Myself included) so commissioning a B22 is what most members would have to do. I have no idea what such a commission might cost (Members seldom state what their custom built amp cost), but I would guess that a stripped B22 might go for $2000 or so, how much would one cost with 5 inputs, remote control, and separate power supply? If available it could top $5000

 The fact that which amp sounded better ended up being debatable is the greatest endorsement of the Phoenix ever. For me I haven't seen a B22 that does even part of what I'd like my main amp to do, so to me the winner is obvious.

 If I had unlimited money it would be nice to commission a Loaded two chassis B22 using all of the Audiophile parts that I know make audible differences. Such a machine would cost well in excess of $5000. Unfortunately I don't have unlimited money so such an amp is not an option. I would however prefer a Super-Phoenix. I imagine Kingwa building an amp on two larger chassis, with all of the features of the Phoenix (Maybe a couple of more inputs, maybe a tape loop), but better power supply and built with Audiophile grade parts. For such a Super Phoenix I might be able to dig up $3000-$5000, and based on the fact that the Phoenix (Without much in the way of Audiophile parts) is already close to a B22 just imagine what a Super-Phoenix might sound like. Heaven comes to mind.


----------



## iszatso

Wonderful commentary regarding the Phoenix and the B22. Now I know why your handle is "Yikes,"....A wonderful tease to buy the Phoenix. (at least for me..)


----------



## IPodPJ

One of the guys at the show who is an ear, nose & throat doctor and who gets regular hearing check-ups said there was no comparison.... the Phoenix was the better amp by a landslide, that they weren't even in the same league. And my girlfriend had that impression, too. So I guess it all comes down to personal preference at this level. <sigh>

 And by the way, I randomized the order of the listening tests: Some people heard the Phoenix first and the B22 second. Some people heard the B22 first and the Phoenix second. I don't remember based on what order who chose what amp as their favorite.

 Clearly one of the amps has a coloration. But which one................ you'll have to wait. But I really think it was the B22 and here's the main reason: I have heard no other headphone amp that gave the HD800 the kind of bass slam that the balanced B22 gave them. That makes me think it is artificially bumping up the bass and mid-bass.


----------



## punk_guy182

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_One of the guys at the show who is an ear, nose & throat doctor and who gets regular hearing check-ups said there was no comparison.... the Phoenix was the better amp by a landslide, that they weren't even in the same league._

 

You mean an otorhinolaryngologist. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I can't wait to have your impressions on your in depth comparaison of both amps.
 Good job on the reviews PJ.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *punk_guy182* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You mean an otorhinolaryngologist. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I can't wait to have your impressions on your in depth comparaison of both amps.
 Good job on the reviews PJ. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Yes, that's what he said. I just didn't remember that word.


----------



## tim3320070

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sandchak* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks PJ for organizing such a great meet, if I was from that part of the world, I am sure I would have been there..
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I am sure with the REF1 in the chain, it will make much difference, but for comparison sake, it would have the same effect on B22, so in my opinion the B22 still has a edge over Phoenix.

 That being said, considering the price of Phoenix and the fact that it still manages give the B22 a run for its money, makes me believe that Audio GD has achieved in producing one of the best SS amps in the market - Good for us !..
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

True but you are forgetting that you can connect the Ref-1 to the Phoenix with CAST, further refining the sound (vs. RCA or XLR), if only slightly to my ears, with my equipment (FBI-500 and Mirage speakers- maybe more noticeable with the Phoenix and HD800's).


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I also listened to santacore's C-2C and I was surprised at what a good amp it was. Considering the price it is an absolute steal._

 

You should hear what the stepped attenuator upgrade does for it. I'm totally impressed by the results. The ALPS RK27 it replaced is holding the C-2C back.

 Peete.


----------



## sandchak

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tim3320070* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_True but you are forgetting that you can connect the Ref-1 to the Phoenix with CAST, further refining the sound (vs. RCA or XLR), if only slightly to my ears, with my equipment (FBI-500 and Mirage speakers- maybe more noticeable with the Phoenix and HD800's)._

 

I don't disagree, going CAST does seem to improve SQ as far as I have heard and continue to hear ( CIA400 - REF1 - CD7 through my B&W speakers), but I was looking at a more even field because B22 doesn't have CAST. Yes, you are right, CAST would be a plus for Phoenix and can make a difference. But more than anything as Yikes pointed out in his latest post, taking everything into consideration, Phoenix becomes more attractive + there seems to be some talk about distortion in B22..


----------



## ServinginEcuador

Moving this to the meet thread.

 But, after listening to some samplings of other amps at the meet I can say without reservation that the Phoenix is going nowhere anytime soon. That is unless Kingwa remakes the PSU and does some upgrades like Yikes suggested...


----------



## n3rdling

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sandchak* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_But more than anything as Yikes pointed out in his latest post, taking everything into consideration, Phoenix becomes more attractive + there seems to be some talk about distortion in B22.._

 

If you're referring to my meet impressions post, I highly doubt the distortion was the B22 and was instead the source material. None of the B22's I heard at Canjam had this distortion. I really wish I gave this shootout a proper and more lengthy listen.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Maybe the CDR disc was burned with replay gain engaged and it caused some clipping on the peaks ?

 Peete.


----------



## johnwmclean

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sandchak* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_there seems to be some talk about distortion in B22.._


----------



## IPodPJ

I'm not even sure what distortion you were hearing, Milos. No one else heard the distortion and I have listened to the album many times and have never heard a drop of distortion anywhere. That's why I said it might be the amp if you were hearing it because there's none in my system.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Maybe the CDR disc was burned with replay gain engaged and it caused some clipping on the peaks ?

 Peete._

 

No. It wasn't a CDR disc. I ripped it from the actual CD, as is the case with 95% of the music in my collection.

 You want to know how anal I am? Originally I had ripped all my CDs with iTunes as either lossless .m4a or AIFF. But when I heard people talking about how EAC does a better rip, I spent a week re-ripping everything with EAC. It took awhile to get EAC configured initially because it kept showing errors in the rip. Eventually I got it set right and since then every rip has been verified as 100% accurate with no errors.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No. It wasn't a CDR disc. I ripped it from the actual CD, as is the case with 95% of the music in my collection.

 You want to know how anal I am? Originally I had ripped all my CDs with iTunes as either lossless .m4a or AIFF. But when I heard people talking about how EAC does a better rip, I spent a week re-ripping everything with EAC. It took awhile to get EAC configured initially because it kept showing errors in the rip. Eventually I got it set right and since then every rip has been verified as 100% accurate with no errors._

 

Your like me in this regard....thanks for the clarification PJ. 

 Peete.


----------



## sandchak

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *n3rdling* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If you're referring to my meet impressions post, I highly doubt the distortion was the B22 and was instead the source material. None of the B22's I heard at Canjam had this distortion. I really wish I gave this shootout a proper and more lengthy listen. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

No, I wasn't referring to your impressions. In fact I think I owe an apology out here, what I meant was *coloration* and *not distortion*. This was going by PJ's feeling that maybe there was a coloration in B22 as he never heard any amp that gave HD800 the bass slam as the B22 did. and maybe it artificially bumps up the bass and mid-bass.. Sorry my bad, maybe I used the wrong term.


----------



## Yikes

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ServinginEcuador* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Moving this to the meet thread.

 But, after listening to some samplings of other amps at the meet I can say without reservation that the Phoenix is going nowhere anytime soon. That is unless Kingwa remakes the PSU and does some upgrades like Yikes suggested... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

When I first read this post I interpreted it as you thought that somehow I was saying that the Phoenix sucked (or that you were saying it sucks), I thought What! Then I realized that you purchased one, and that you were basically agreeing with me. Yes the only way the Phoenix is going anywheres is if it is being pried from my cold dead hands 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. Either that or I find something that I like better, which I don't think is going to happen anytime soon.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No. It wasn't a CDR disc. I ripped it from the actual CD, as is the case with 95% of the music in my collection.

 You want to know how anal I am? Originally I had ripped all my CDs with iTunes as either lossless .m4a or AIFF. But when I heard people talking about how EAC does a better rip, I spent a week re-ripping everything with EAC. It took awhile to get EAC configured initially because it kept showing errors in the rip. Eventually I got it set right and since then every rip has been verified as 100% accurate with no errors._

 

It only took you a week to re-rip your collection? Your collection must be Tiny. Do you know what they say about a man and the size of his music collection? No.... seriously what do they say? I've been asking for years and no one will tell me, like it's a freaking secret or something.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 When I got my Exemplar Music Server I ripped like crazy for about two months and I think I got about 1/3 done. Now after another year I might be up to about 1/2. No rush now that I'm left with disc's that I almost never listen to. Maybe I should consider selling the 1/2 of my collection that I hardly ever use. Once the collection gets large enough Foobar2000 becomes a little less than a joy to use.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_When I first read this post I interpreted it as you thought that somehow I was saying that the Phoenix sucked (or that you were saying it sucks), I thought What! Then I realized that you purchased one, and that you were basically agreeing with me. Yes the only way the Phoenix is going anywheres is if it is being pried from my cold dead hands 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. Either that or I find something that I like better, which I don't think is going to happen anytime soon.



 It only took you a week to re-rip your collection? Your collection must be Tiny. Do you know what they say about a man and the size of his music collection? No.... seriously what do they say? I've been asking for years and no one will tell me, like it's a freaking secret or something.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 When I got my Exemplar Music Server I ripped like crazy for about two months and I think I got about 1/3 done. Now after another year I might be up to about 1/2. No rush now that I'm left with disc's that I almost never listen to. Maybe I should consider selling the 1/2 of my collection that I hardly ever use. Once the collection gets large enough Foobar2000 becomes a little less than a joy to use._

 

If you come up with something other than Foobar, do tell us!

 .


----------



## Yikes

One of the secrets to getting the best sound from Foobar is the way that ripping is done with EAC. Each disc is represented by two files one super large Wave file that is in essence the entire disc (Usually 400 MB to about 650 MB) and a small CUE file that I believe tells Foobar what's what in the large WAVE file. When I rip in EAC I hit the IMG button.

 I've already written too much. The secret to having a truly great sounding server is 5% hardware (Talking about the server only) and 95% setup. I'll give another key, if you're running Windows Update you're system won't be optimized after most updates. In fact to keep the server optimized the system should pretty much only be used as a server (The act of installing most significant programs can screw it up). The strangest little things can screw up (Change) the way key programs load and run.

 The only reason the Exemplar Music Server is pretty much only sold within the audio industry is that it doesn't have it's own GUI. So when using it people think of it as a computer (Which it is) and start installing software on it and running other programs which usually screws up how well it performs as a server. So it's sold to people in the industry who John Tucker knows and trusts to not be sending the systems back for reconfiguring every two weeks. Amazing sounding product that because of the lack of a Custom GUI is not quite ready for prime time.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Yikes have you tired Mediamonkey with the otachan ASIO driver ? I found it to be better than Foobar by a fair margin in terms of SQ.

 Peete.


----------



## haloxt

I tried asking rockbox about rockboxing a laptop (rockbox is an open source firmware for mp3 players, lol) but no one would write a port for me. If anyone manages to turn a computer into an mp3 player and notices it has better SQ than current software, please let me know 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I tried asking rockbox about rockboxing a laptop (rockbox is an open source firmware for mp3 players, lol) but no one would write a port for me. If anyone manages to turn a computer into an mp3 player and notices it has better SQ than current software, please let me know 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




._

 

I'm totally confused what you are trying to do here. My Laptop plays MP3z like a Mofo!

 .


----------



## haloxt

I wanted to make a laptop run the same rockbox software that was designed for mp3 players 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 it'd certainly have a lot less cpu usage than using windows if nothing else. The rockbox software is very nice though, with a few more added functions it has the makings of the ultimate music server software.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I wanted to make a laptop run the same rockbox software that was designed for mp3 players 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 it'd certainly have a lot less cpu usage than using windows if nothing else. The rockbox software is very nice though, with a few more added functions it has the makings of the ultimate music server software._

 

My iPod is RockBox'd, but if I'm in front of my Laptop, I'm doing things that need the OS. Anyhow, was just wondering out loud what you were referring to.


----------



## Yikes

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yikes have you tired Mediamonkey with the otachan ASIO driver ? I found it to be better than Foobar by a fair margin in terms of SQ.

 Peete._

 

 I'd have to ask John tucker if he's tried it. My server is not just loading up Foobar and running it. Foobar running on my Office PC or my bedroom PC does not sound anywhere near as good as my server does. I have had it demonstrated to me how the slightest change in how a system is configured has a noticeable effect on the sound. So I'm not going to mess with what is the finest source (Transport) that I've heard. 

 I'll try Media Monkey on another of my PC's and if I find it's user interface to be better I'll ask john to see if it's as good (Or better) than Foobar (The way he has it configured) is.

 Since Moon Audio has my AH-D7000's for re-cabling I'm back to using my Phoenix as a Preamp only. I'm well over 500 hours and to be honest I have no issues with it's performance as a preamp. I'm convinced that to get something that would be a worthwhile upgrade I'd have to spend more than $5000 retail. 

 As I sit here listening to the Soundtrack to Apocalypto I am forced to grin, because I only spent $1164 (Shipping and paypal fee's) on this thing. I'm sure that if I looked in the dictionary under bargain that there would be a picture of the Phoenix there. If you want to hear some of the Phoenix's strengths listen to this recording. Dynamics, Bass slam and power. Awesome recording, and the Phoenix does it true justice.

 I'm done fawning for now.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Agreed Yikes on all counts using th Phoenix as a main system pre....I'm amazed with it's abilities. I've heard some good stuff over the years but this is new territory for me.

 I'm right in the middle of the conversion of the DIY cable to balanced using Kingwa's kit. I managed to repair the flaky connector....crossed fingers (damned thing is tough to unsolder...re-solder without melting the entire blasted housing) but I think I have it...onto step 2 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Try out Mediamonkey with that ASIO driver (otachan 6.7 or something like that). It based on the Steinberg ASIO driver (in whole or part...more info at the otachan site). I think you'll be pleasantly surprised ...

 That ST sounds like a worthwhile addition to the collection. What label is it recorded under Yikes ?

 Peete.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_<<SNIP>>

 As I sit here listening to the Soundtrack to Apocalypto I am forced to grin, because I only spent $1164 (Shipping and paypal fee's) on this thing. I'm sure that if I looked in the dictionary under bargain that there would be a picture of the Phoenix there. If you want to hear some of the Phoenix's strengths listen to this recording. Dynamics, Bass slam and power. Awesome recording, and the Phoenix does it true justice.

 I'm done fawning for now._

 

Any particular track on the Soundtrack?

 .


----------



## Bob Jones

Just got my phoenix and realized I don't have digital out on my new computer.Only headphone and speaker analogs.The computer dosen't recognize usb to the dac.Is a sound card with digital out my only recourse or should the computer recognize the usb.Thanks for any info.


----------



## Yikes

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bob Jones* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just got my phoenix and realized I don't have digital out on my new computer.Only headphone and speaker analogs.The computer dosen't recognize usb to the dac.Is a sound card with digital out my only recourse or should the computer recognize the usb.Thanks for any info._

 


 Not enough info. Have you gone through the control panel and going to Sound and choosing the USB Audio Codec that should show up there (Once the USB DAC is plugged in).

 It really is usually Plug and Play.


----------



## Bob Jones

Uh O,it's going to a pop pulse[usb in digital out] to north star mk2 which has no usb.The computer is xp pro quad.Is my best option now a sound card?Yikes thanks


----------



## The Monkey

Bob, just so I'm clear, you've got it set up as follows:

 Computer---(USB)--->Pop Pulse---(S/PDIF)--->North Star mk2 (coax in)------>Phoenix

 Is that correct? And no joy?


----------



## Bob Jones

I also almost went to get a mini rca plug to rca l/r but I realized it was an analog out.


----------



## Bob Jones

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *The Monkey* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Bob, just so I'm clear, you've got it set up as follows:

 Computer---(USB)--->Pop Pulse---(S/PDIF)--->North Star mk2 (coax in)------>Phoenix

 Is that correct? And no joy?_

 

Yes that's exactly right,and I've been waiting for a long time to hear music again.


----------



## tim3320070

It says plug and play on the Cryo Parts website- must be a setting in your computer. Is it powered on?


----------



## The Monkey

Bob,

 Two things occur to me (When I had that North Star, the coax in was working fine):

 1) What kind of cable do you have going from the Pop Pulse to the North Star? Is it a 75 ohm digital cable?

 2) Forgive me if this is a simplistic tip, but have you made sure to switch the input on the front panel of the North Star?


----------



## Bob Jones

Yes,I'll look at the pop pulse instructions.


----------



## Bob Jones

One is a monster and the other is a blue dragon.I got yhe input ok.Thanks Monkey


----------



## Currawong

Also, have you selected USB power on the Pop Pulse or plugged in the power adaptor? You should at least see red glow from the optical output port.


----------



## IPodPJ

Try the DAC on another computer and see if it is recognized. If not, the DAC is defective.

 If it is recognized then something is wrong with your XP drivers.


----------



## The Monkey

I'm pretty sure that the DAC is fine (it was my DAC). It sounds like there could be an issue on the 'puter. We'll sort it out. Bob, keep us posted.


----------



## Yikes

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That ST sounds like a worthwhile addition to the collection. What label is it recorded under Yikes ?

 Peete._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Any particular track on the Soundtrack?

 ._

 

Sorry I had to dig out the disc.

 Apocalypto - Hollywood Records D000015802 (James Horner)

 As far as what tracks to listen to, it's all worthwhile. Remember it's a soundtrack for a movie about Mayan's and slaves and sacrifices and such, so it's very nuanced. As far as impressive I'd try #7, 9 The recording has tremendous dynamic contrasts, it's not just bombastic, it's got range. John Williams it's not.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Thanks Yikes !

 Peete.


----------



## sandchak

X2.. its a great piece of music - I am listening to it now..
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Peete, Love your new avatar ! looks like a wise old man !!..


----------



## IPodPJ

I've always said that my girlfriend has really good ears. She has the ability to hear things in 30 seconds that take me significantly longer to discover. It took me almost a week to realize why she thought my DAC sounded better on 96kHz than 192kHz, and she was right. Sometimes she doesn't always know the proper words to describe what she's hearing and it takes a little bit of clarification to understand exactly what she means.

 Tonight I set-up my headphone system again for the first time since coming back from the meet. I needed a break. Don't get me wrong, the meet was tons of fun but it was a lot of hard work that took up a significant amount of my time over the past month and a half. I let the Phoenix warm up for 2 hours before I began my listening session.

 I started with an album I am intimately familiar with, Chris Rea's The Road To Hell. After a few minutes a thought entered my mind. "This doesn't sound like the balanced B22." And I knew that was a bad thing. The Phoenix sounded muddy in comparison to the highly detailed B22. But my girlfriend didn't feel that way. "How can she think the B22 is flat and muddy?" I thought. "Maybe she's just got the words mixed up."

 After another 2 hours of listening (by this time the Phoenix has had 4 hours to warm up) the amp has settled in nicely and more detail is apparent. But it still doesn't have the bass slam or level of detail the balanced B22 had. How can the B22 have so much more in every area that any other amp I've heard? I've heard a lot of amps in every price range and none of them seem to provide the impact the B22 does in any area. Is the Phoenix really neutral and its the B22 that has accentuated bass and a recessed midrange, or is the B22 neutral and its my DAC that has accentuated bass and a recessed midrange? Either way, my girlfriend and I were hearing completely different things...... initially.

 I have always liked strong treble and lots of bass. Before I learned to love neutrality, this is the curve that appealed to me most. When I heard this in the B22 it felt right at home. It was a sound I yearned for. Flat and muddy it was not. So what could she have meant?

 As the evening wore on and the music kept playing there came a point that I was struck with a revelation. I knew what she was hearing now! How the hell was she able to pick up on that so quickly in a room full of noisy people, in 30 seconds no less??

 The Phoenix has an incredibly layered soundstage in both width and depth but especially in depth. It is also equally as textured in tone and timbre. Vocals and instruments can clearly be imaged anywhere within its holophonic, 3-dimensional soundstage. To clarify: imagine the soundstage depth is broken up into 6 cross sections, A, B, C, D, E, and F. There are different details present on each cross section. Section A would be closest to your face, section B slightly further back, section C even further back, section D further still, and so on.

 The B22 pops out at you initially because all the details are coming from a virtually 2-dimensional point source. Those 6 sections in the Phoenix have been condensed into 2 sections in the B22. This makes it easier to hear the detail and bass slam because there is no layering or texture. The soundstage is wide and deep, but it's shape is a parabola, whereas the Phoenix's soundstage is a sphere.

 This is about the best way I can possibly describe the differences between these two amps. The Phoenix has plenty of detail, it's just layered and therefore presented differently but more naturally. And once again my girlfriend was right, even if she didn't know the best words to describe what she was hearing.

 This amp isn't going anywhere. It has a lot left to reveal to me and can't fully do that until the Reference One arrives in about 2 weeks. The more I listen to it the more I discover what it's capable of. Sure, I'd still love to have a B22 but I now realize that it is no better than the Phoenix, just different. In fact, if I was given a choice to have one or the other for the same price I'd still choose the Phoenix. That's the best endorsement I can give it at this point.


----------



## sandchak

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've always said that my girlfriend has really good ears. She has the ability to hear things in 30 seconds that take me significantly longer to discover. 

 How the hell was she able to pick up on that so quickly in a room full of noisy people, in 30 seconds no less??
_

 

PJ, I used to have similar experience myself when it came to my wife and me.

 She used to pick up things in a casual listening more than I could do in a serious session. Then I came to realize that there is nothing more precious than a good set of ears and an open mind when it comes to enjoying music and all the technical jargons only complicate things further - in this case, ignorance is a bliss !.

 Most of the time maybe I was trying too hard to hear or pick up things, ending up more in listening to the equipment rather than the music, especially in a situation when I am visiting a forum on a regular basis and there are so many things being said which seems to be there in my mind. 

 Btw, the most important thing I learnt is that you need good sleep, otherwise non of your senses will work at its optimum no matter how hard you try..
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Oh, it can also be a case where your girlfriend does not want you to spend further on another headphone amp !!..
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Edit. deleted a couple of lines which I found irrelevant on second thoughts.


----------



## Currawong

IPodPJ: Interesting observations. I'm keen to listen with a fully balanced Beta 22/Sigma 22 build now to compare myself. You'll enjoy the Ref 1.


----------



## boomana

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've always said that my girlfriend has really good ears. She has the ability to hear things in 30 seconds that take me significantly longer to discover. It took me almost a week to realize why she thought my DAC sounded better on 96kHz than 192kHz, and she was right. Sometimes she doesn't always know the proper words to describe what she's hearing and it takes a little bit of clarification to understand exactly what she means.

 Tonight I set-up my headphone system again for the first time since coming back from the meet. I needed a break. Don't get me wrong, the meet was tons of fun but it was a lot of hard work that took up a significant amount of my time over the past month and a half. I let the Phoenix warm up for 2 hours before I began my listening session.

 I started with an album I am intimately familiar with, Chris Rea's The Road To Hell. After a few minutes a thought entered my mind. "This doesn't sound like the balanced B22." And I knew that was a bad thing. The Phoenix sounded muddy in comparison to the highly detailed B22. But my girlfriend didn't feel that way. "How can she think the B22 is flat and muddy?" I thought. "Maybe she's just got the words mixed up."

 After another 2 hours of listening (by this time the Phoenix has had 4 hours to warm up) the amp has settled in nicely and more detail is apparent. But it still doesn't have the bass slam or level of detail the balanced B22 had. How can the B22 have so much more in every area that any other amp I've heard? I've heard a lot of amps in every price range and none of them seem to provide the impact the B22 does in any area. Is the Phoenix really neutral and its the B22 that has accentuated bass and a recessed midrange, or is the B22 neutral and its my DAC that has accentuated bass and a recessed midrange? Either way, my girlfriend and I were hearing completely different things...... initially.

 I have always liked strong treble and lots of bass. Before I learned to love neutrality, this is the curve that appealed to me most. When I heard this in the B22 it felt right at home. It was a sound I yearned for. Flat and muddy it was not. So what could she have meant?

 As the evening wore on and the music kept playing there came a point that I was struck with a revelation. I knew what she was hearing now! How the hell was she able to pick up on that so quickly in a room full of noisy people, in 30 seconds no less??

 The Phoenix has an incredibly layered soundstage in both width and depth but especially in depth. It is also equally as textured in tone and timbre. Vocals and instruments can clearly be imaged anywhere within its holophonic, 3-dimensional soundstage. To clarify: imagine the soundstage depth is broken up into 6 cross sections, A, B, C, D, E, and F. There are different details present on each cross section. Section A would be closest to your face, section B slightly further back, section C even further back, section D further still, and so on.

 The B22 pops out at you initially because all the details are coming from a virtually 2-dimensional point source. Those 6 sections in the Phoenix have been condensed into 2 sections in the B22. This makes it easier to hear the detail and bass slam because there is no layering or texture. The soundstage is wide and deep, but it's shape is a parabola, whereas the Phoenix's soundstage is a sphere.

 This is about the best way I can possibly describe the differences between these two amps. The Phoenix has plenty of detail, it's just layered and therefore presented differently but more naturally. And once again my girlfriend was right, even if she didn't know the best words to describe what she was hearing.

 This amp isn't going anywhere. It has a lot left to reveal to me and can't fully do that until the Reference One arrives in about 2 weeks. The more I listen to it the more I discover what it's capable of. Sure, I'd still love to have a B22 but I now realize that it is no better than the Phoenix, just different. In fact, if I was given a choice to have one or the other for the same price I'd still choose the Phoenix. That's the best endorsement I can give it at this point._

 

Glad to read the impressions of the LA meet, and that both the Phoenix and the B22 got some listening time and good reviews. High-end solid state amps haven't really gotten much attention in the past year or so compared to the high-end tube amps available.

 Ipodpj, it's also great you're really listening to your gear and sharing your thoughts, but color me very confused and skeptical regarding your girlfriend's findings and how you came to agree. I've listened to five different b22s, from 2-6 channel builds, and it's one of the most neutral, detailed, revealing amps out there. Hopefully, I'll have my own chance to audition the Phoenix in the not-distant future. From the meet impressions, it sounds like it was well received.

 oh...and I just gotta bust your chops on this one:

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Great reviews, Jeff and John! Thanks for sharing. (I wish I could write reviews like those, but I'm the kind of person who knows if it sounds good and can say maybe 5 words to describe it. The end.) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_


----------



## The Monkey

Just thought you guys would be interested in tangerine's assessment of the Phoenix...

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *The Monkey* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_tangerine, I don't know if you took me seriously in my last post, but I meant it. You should compare notes with the folks who are trumpeting the audio-gd Phoenix. Frankly, even better would be if you got a Phoenix yourself and compared it to the silvercore. Both of these amps are generating comments that are dreamlike. It would be interesting to find out which comes out on top._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tangerine* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have been experimenting with stereo equipment my all life and owned stellar components such as Jadisis 845 Pass Labs x-600 vpi TNT turntables Senn Orpheus etc. etc..I say it here clearly , a component wich is
 MADE IN CHINA
 you cant expect stellar performance.That's it.If you want to hear something special you have to invest decent amount of money let's say US dollars.So people get education and find a nice job ,work as a horse and when you get paid for it you can someday buy something wich has quality and respect_


----------



## seacard

That's nonsense. I don't even have the Phoenix nor was I overwhelmed by its sound at the L.A. meet, but the idea that something made in China can't sound good is so ridiculous as to not merit a serious response. I guess that's what they used to say about Japan not that long ago.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *The Monkey* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just thought you guys would be interested in tangerine's assessment of the Phoenix..._

 

Not sure I see the relevance here.

 I see a European guy who likes European Gear.

 He is GaGa over his new Amp that costs something like $4500, a tube amp.

 He is obviously bigoted and close minded against Chinese Audio Gear.

 If you had told me a year ago that I would own a pile of Chinese Audio gear, I would have told you that you were crazy. But I'm open to reason, argument, and debate. Tangerine obviously is not, his loss as it were.

 .


----------



## haloxt

Can you try not to stir up stuff here monkey? If you don't remove that post I do hope no one gives a response to it because it doesn't deserve a response.


----------



## Drosera

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *seacard* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's nonsense. I don't even have the Phoenix nor was I overwhelmed by its sound at the L.A. meet, but the idea that something made in China can't sound good is so ridiculous as to not merit a serious response. I guess that's what they used to say about Japan not that long ago._

 

I think you're onto something here. Tangerine's remark would make sense to plenty of people if he would have made it 5 or 10 years ago. But things are changing and with China developing a very large local market for HiFi, people like Kingwa will emerge who will develop equipment that can actually compete with the best of the "western" offerings. I think we're witnessing just the start of a growing trend. I hope the future of HiFi will be bright, but it will almost certainly be Chinese for a large part.


----------



## The Monkey

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Can you try not to stir up stuff here monkey? If you don't remove that post I do hope no one gives a response to it because it doesn't deserve a response._

 

I think it's germane to this thread. tangerine has been waxing poetic about his amp in much the same way that people have been raving about the Phoenix. Difference is when challanged about his views, he puts down other products, which is not the case with Phoenix owners. I think it's important to call out people when they make silly statements like tangerine's. You certainly don't have to respond to it. But I have no intention of removing my post. Mods can take care of that if they see fit.


----------



## The Monkey

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Drosera* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think you're onto something here. Tangerine's remark would make sense to plenty of people if he would have made it 5 or 10 years ago. But things are changing and with China developing a very large local market for HiFi, people like Kingwa will emerge who will develop equipment that can actually compete with the best of the "western" offerings. I think we're witnessing just the start of a growing trend. I hope the future of HiFi will be bright, but it will almost certainly be Chinese for a large part._

 


 And the irony is that there are plenty of high end European manufacturers who are having their gear built in China to "western" specs.


----------



## tiga3mata

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *The Monkey* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just thought you guys would be interested in tangerine's assessment of the Phoenix..._

 

Its not an assessment, its a sweeping condemnation by a racial and economic bigot with a supremacist mentality. Why waste time posting his colored opinions....


----------



## velogreg

Again, I think you are missing the Monkey's point. Put the emotions aside for a minute or two to read and think. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Oh, and perhaps reflect...............


----------



## IPodPJ

Anyone who can knock a product before they've had a chance to listen to it is a fool. Anyone who can reason this away by playing the race card is an a******.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *boomana* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_oh...and I just gotta bust your chops on this one:




_

 

I was feeling inspired. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The horrible thing is that the whole post was already typed out and then the computer restarted and did a system update. I was furious and had to remember everything I had typed, at 3:15 in the morning.

 And I do believe that you are correct about the B22 being neutral. I mentioned that. It could be that the Phoenix is not neutral, or if so only with CAST inputs and when it's been on for over 4 hours. The Phoenix was designed to sound its best with CAST inputs, and Kingwa states that XLR only has 85% the sound quality of CAST. So the true test will come when I get the Ref1 and can have AtomikPi over with his 4-channel B22. If the B22 edges out the Phoenix in that test (which will consist of supposedly neutral equipment), I will surely let you know. I don't play favorites.

 By the way, what's the difference between a 4-channel and 6-channel B22? Does 6 just mean you can have both balanced and SE outputs?


----------



## Drosera

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *The Monkey* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_And the irony is that there are plenty of high end European manufacturers who are having their gear built in China to "western" specs._

 

I think most HiFi-enthusiasts by now have managed to overcome their doubts when it comes to the "Made in China" label. I guess the same thing happening to something "Designed in China" will just take a little longer.


----------



## squall343

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nattonrice* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Come again?
 You realize that alot of the components and their base constituents in all these super expensive amps were manufactured in China or another 3rd/2nd'ish world country right?

 Hell here in Australia we quite often ship raw ore to China for processing before importing back the finished product for use here._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tangerine* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks for the info... so i will not buy Australian hifi equipment._

 

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f5/sil...ml#post5848888

 This is pretty funny to me


----------



## moonboy403

Getting back on topic. Here's a knock on the Phoenix. It has a very faint clicking sound on the right channel when it's not warmed up. I remember reading about it from one of the owners here. Does that clicking sound ever go away? Sometimes, I just wanna listen to music right the moment I turn on my amp, so that clicking sound bothers me during quiet passages.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *moonboy403* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Getting back on topic. Here's a knock on the Phoenix. It has a very faint clicking sound on the right channel when it's not warmed up. I remember reading about it from one of the owners here. Does that clicking sound ever go away? Sometimes, I just wanna listen to music right the moment I turn on my amp, so that clicking sound bothers me during quiet passages._

 

I have no such noise. And is that in SE or balanced configuration?

 But I did experience something interesting. Remember my comparison with the 70 step and 99 step volume differences? Well when I reconnected my Phoenix this time I plugged the data cable into the second port and while the differences are still there, they are markedly less. I confirmed this by plugging the data cable back into the other port. And of course this makes no sense to me since it's only supposed to be a data line which contains no audible information, but the difference is there nonetheless.

 So it appears every Phoenix owner has something different coming out of their amp.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *The Monkey* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_And the irony is that there are plenty of high end European manufacturers who are having their gear built in China to "western" specs._

 

Truly! Perhaps Kingwa can get some Brick&Mortar in the US, co-brand his gear as Manhattan Audio or California Audio or some such and start charging $5000 a whack!

 .


----------



## haloxt

If changing inputs and switching between volume steps can alter SQ, strange as that sounds, maybe emi/rfi is be the main culprit. The data cable that comes with the Phoenix is unshielded. I won't test it though 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 too many hours trying to hear difference in cables has fried my brain.


----------



## les_garten

Looks like a nice meet in LA with good info gleaned from it. Additionally, there were three Phoenix boxes there. A high percentage of Phoenix that exist in the wild! Most impressive. I think there were more Phoenix amps there than B22s!

 If you contracted a build for a 4 Channel B22 with a twisted Pear Vol Attenuator, a Darwin source selector, Pre-Amp capability, and Balanced/SE, with a separate chassis PSU, and Pro Quality casework, you're looking at 3x the cost of the Phoenix and most likely much more. If you added remote control and LED display, sit down first before you get that quote. Not to mention a very comprehensive A-GD warranty.

 The Fact that the B22 and Phoenix are playing in the same League speaks volumes about the Phoenix as great execution and Value proposition. Nobody seems to be critiquing the Phoenix at it's price point.

 It seems as if the biggest failing is that when compared to an amp that cost 3-5 times as much, that 50% of the listeners found the B22 marginally better, while the other 50% found the Phoenix marginally better.

 .


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *moonboy403* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Getting back on topic. Here's a knock on the Phoenix. It has a very faint clicking sound on the right channel when it's not warmed up. I remember reading about it from one of the owners here. Does that clicking sound ever go away? Sometimes, I just wanna listen to music right the moment I turn on my amp, so that clicking sound bothers me during quiet passages._

 

Does it do this without intervention? Such as turning the Vol control. It shouldn't make any relays click unless you turn the knob.

 .


----------



## moonboy403

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Does it do this without intervention? Such as turning the Vol control. It shouldn't make any relays click unless you turn the knob.

 ._

 

It clicks even without any intervention, but as it warms up (I would say 15-20 mins or so), the clicking sound goes away.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *moonboy403* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It clicks even without any intervention, but as it warms up (I would say 15-20 mins or so), the clicking sound goes away._

 

Hmm,

 Does it sound like a relay oscillating? 

 Can you do anything to make it more prominent or anything to make it go away? 

 Can you hear it with bare ears? 

 Or just thru the headphones?

 Does it start immediately on turn on?

 How often is the clicking frequency? Such as clicks per minute?

 I turn mine on and walk off, I will test mine to see if it does this. Tell me how to do the test?

 .


----------



## moonboy403

It's a consistent clicking noise(only on the right channel) that starts right on *cold start* and I would say that it's roughly a few click per second.


----------



## sandchak

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *moonboy403* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It's a consistent clicking noise(only on the right channel) that starts right on *cold start* and I would say that it's roughly a few click per second._

 

Have you told Kingwa about it?? what does he have to say?.. he usually does not take too much time in responding and since he made the amp, I think he would be in the best position to find a solution.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *moonboy403* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It's a consistent clicking noise(only on the right channel) that starts right on *cold start* and I would say that it's roughly a few click per second._

 

I just tried mine. Silent. It actually doesn't seem to make the relay noise as much anymore either for some reason. Email Kingwa to look into this. Has it done this since day 1? I'm empathetic to your problems, not good.

 .


----------



## tim3320070

Kingwa will give you detailed possible reasons I'm sure- he just responded to me about something and it must be close to midnight there.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Looks like a nice meet in LA with good info gleaned from it. Additionally, there were three Phoenix boxes there. A high percentage of Phoenix that exist in the wild! Most impressive. I think there were more Phoenix amps there than B22s!

 If you contracted a build for a 4 Channel B22 with a twisted Pear Vol Attenuator, a Darwin source selector, Pre-Amp capability, and Balanced/SE, with a separate chassis PSU, and Pro Quality casework, you're looking at 3x the cost of the Phoenix and most likely much more. If you added remote control and LED display, sit down first before you get that quote. Not to mention a very comprehensive A-GD warranty.

 The Fact that the B22 and Phoenix are playing in the same League speaks volumes about the Phoenix as great execution and Value proposition. Nobody seems to be critiquing the Phoenix at it's price point.

 It seems as if the biggest failing is that when compared to an amp that cost 3-5 times as much, that 50% of the listeners found the B22 marginally better, while the other 50% found the Phoenix marginally better.

 ._

 


 Agreed Les...well said.

 Peete.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sandchak* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 Peete, Love your new avatar ! looks like a wise old man !!..
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

That will perform tricks for bacon bits !!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Peete.


----------



## moonboy403

I'll drop him an email later since it really isn't that big of a deal but in the mean time...UPS just delivered my Electrocompaniet ECD1.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *moonboy403* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'll drop him an email later since it really isn't that big of a deal but in the mean time...UPS just delivered my Electrocompaniet ECD1. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Wow nice, congrats on the pick up 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Have you tried the other data port ? Might be worth a shot.

 Peete.


----------



## Yikes

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *moonboy403* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Getting back on topic. Here's a knock on the Phoenix. It has a very faint clicking sound on the right channel when it's not warmed up. I remember reading about it from one of the owners here. Does that clicking sound ever go away? Sometimes, I just wanna listen to music right the moment I turn on my amp, so that clicking sound bothers me during quiet passages._

 

Mine did that when cold and brand new. It goes away after 10-20 minutes of warm-up. Since the amp doesn't sound great when cold I turn it on and let it warm it up for about 30 minutes before I seriously listen, so I have not heard the noise since first turning the amp on and listening when cold.

 When asked Kingwa replied that the noise might be because the amp was cold (needed warm-up). I do not consider the noise when cold an issue. Turn the amp on, go check your email, get a beer, and come back it'll be quiet and sound great. No problem. IMO

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ If you contracted a build for a 4 Channel B22 with a twisted Pear Vol Attenuator, a Darwin source selector, Pre-Amp capability, and Balanced/SE, with a separate chassis PSU, and Pro Quality casework, you're looking at 3x the cost of the Phoenix and most likely much more. If you added remote control and LED display, sit down first before you get that quote. Not to mention a very comprehensive A-GD warranty. 
 The Fact that the B22 and Phoenix are playing in the same League speaks volumes about the Phoenix as great execution and Value proposition._

 

Didn't I post almost the exact same thing several pages ago? (Only I was much more verbose)
  Quote:


 There are several issues that the comparisons with a B22 barely touch on.

 1) Production versus DIY or Private Commission -A production Amplifier will have very little unit to unit variation. A DIY unit is exactly that, the outcome is dependent on many factors: Builders Skill, Chosen configuration, Parts selection. 

 So when you order a Phoenix in about a month you'll receive the same amp that everyone has been writing about. If you decide to build a B22 you're gambling on your own skill and ability to choose the right parts and build it perfectly, and oh yeah enjoy the flexible warranty.

 2) Features - Sure the B22 can be used as a preamp or even to drive ultra efficient speakers. The fact however is that no one has built a B22 with the number of inputs and outputs, remote control, and ergonomic sophistication that the Phoenix offers. Could someone do so? Sure, maybe, but at what cost? The fact is that even the slickest B22's are fairly crude ergonomically compared to the Phoenix. So if you want remote controlled multiple inputs switched with remote relays with volume memory a B22 is not in the running.

 3) Time - How long does the average DIYer take to complete a B22? How long does it take for a commissioned B22 to be built? I believe that the lead time for a Phoenix is about a month.

 4) Cost - The Phoenix will now set a person back about $1350 delivered to the US. I haven't researched it but the impression I have gathered from my readings here is that is also about what a well configured B22 might cost someone who DIY's it(Not counting labor). A B22 is beyond the DIY ability of most members (Myself included) so commissioning a B22 is what most members would have to do. I have no idea what such a commission might cost (Members seldom state what their custom built amp cost), but I would guess that a stripped B22 might go for $2000 or so, how much would one cost with 5 inputs, remote control, and separate power supply? If available it could top $5000

 The fact that which amp sounded better ended up being debatable is the greatest endorsement of the Phoenix ever. For me I haven't seen a B22 that does even part of what I'd like my main amp to do, so to me the winner is obvious.

 If I had unlimited money it would be nice to commission a Loaded two chassis B22 using all of the Audiophile parts that I know make audible differences. Such a machine would cost well in excess of $5000. Unfortunately I don't have unlimited money so such an amp is not an option. I would however prefer a Super-Phoenix. I imagine Kingwa building an amp on two larger chassis, with all of the features of the Phoenix (Maybe a couple of more inputs, maybe a tape loop), but better power supply and built with Audiophile grade parts. For such a Super Phoenix I might be able to dig up $3000-$5000, and based on the fact that the Phoenix (Without much in the way of Audiophile parts) is already close to a B22 just imagine what a Super-Phoenix might sound like. Heaven comes to mind. 
 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ Nobody seems to be critiquing the Phoenix at it's price point.

 It seems as if the biggest failing is that when compared to an amp that cost 3-5 times as much, that 50% of the listeners found the B22 marginally better, while the other 50% found the Phoenix marginally better._

 

This has been emphasized several times, more than several times. Since the Phoenix actually fights in a different weight class it seems silly to compare it to comparably prices lightweights.


----------



## pompon

IPodPJ's girlfriend tell him his phoenix is better because she want he keep his money to offer her a big and shining ring!


----------



## punk_guy182




----------



## moonboy403

Definitely looking forward to Phil's wedding. While we're at it, we'll bring our gears to the wedding for another meet eh?


----------



## Lil' Knight

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pompon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_IPodPJ's girlfriend tell him his phoenix is better because she want he keep his money to offer her a big and shining ring! _

 

Pure win.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Mine did that when cold and brand new. It goes away after 10-20 minutes of warm-up. Since the amp doesn't sound great when cold I turn it on and let it warm it up for about 30 minutes before I seriously listen, so I have not heard the noise since first turning the amp on and listening when cold.

 When asked Kingwa replied that the noise might be because the amp was cold (needed warm-up). I do not consider the noise when cold an issue. Turn the amp on, go check your email, get a beer, and come back it'll be quiet and sound great. No problem. IMO

 Didn't I post almost the exact same thing several pages ago? (Only I was much more verbose)


 This has been emphasized several times, more than several times. Since the Phoenix actually fights in a different weight class it seems silly to compare it to comparably prices lightweights._

 

Heh, don't get your Hackles up, sometimes Brevity is a virtue 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pompon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_IPodPJ's girlfriend tell him his phoenix is better because she want he keep his money to offer her a big and shining ring! _

 

I remember reading in some Esoteric Historical reference that Eva Braun didn't much like Jews either! Could have been because of the company she was keeping!

 .


----------



## Bob Jones

Well,Still haven't figured out the problem,Yet.I did try another computer with no luck,and a million other things like different cables shorts continuity ect.Think I'll spend one more day on it then post to the computer forum.I do have a volt ohm meter,I'll hunt down some values.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I remember reading in some Esoteric Historical reference that Eva Braun didn't much like Jews either! Could have been because of the company she was keeping!

 ._

 

What the heck is that supposed to mean?


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pompon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_IPodPJ's girlfriend tell him his phoenix is better because she want he keep his money to offer her a big and shining ring! _

 

Not at all. She could care less about expensive jewelry. In fact, she is encouraging me to buy several amps. She's really gotten into this hobby. But she can encourage me all she wants. Once I buy the Ref-1 and the custom SB transport Kingwa is working on, my money will be completely tapped out.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What the heck is that supposed to mean?_

 

Heh, it's kinda like me using my Mom as a Character reference.

 .


----------



## Currawong

I briefly had clicking in the volume when it wasn't being changed. It went away within an hour for me though. The strange thing is, it started after I changed around power cables experimentally. Some things to try: Switch the volume from 70 to 99 steps or back. Change power cables or outlets (worth a shot). Use the remote control to change the volume for a while.

 About the Beta 22: It's hard to nail down the amp as it can be built many ways, but I would lay bets on a 2-box 6-channel build besting the Phoenix except in value, primarily because it was designed as headphone amp from the beginning.


----------



## haloxt

After what I've seen of audio-gd's perfectionist design philosophy I'd think if someone wants the best B22 they should commission audio-gd to make it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_After what I've seen of audio-gd's perfectionist design philosophy I'd think if someone wants the best B22 they should commission audio-gd to make it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




._

 

I tried that. He refused.


----------



## Mik

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *moonboy403* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Getting back on topic. Here's a knock on the Phoenix. It has a very faint clicking sound on the right channel when it's not warmed up. I remember reading about it from one of the owners here. Does that clicking sound ever go away? Sometimes, I just wanna listen to music right the moment I turn on my amp, so that clicking sound bothers me during quiet passages._

 

My Phoenix also has a very faint constant clicking sound which can only be heard out of the (beryllium) tweeter in my right speaker. It is at a constant volume regardless of the volume setting on the Phoenix. I can only hear it when I walk right up to my right speaker and put my ear pretty much right on the tweeter. As soon as I take even a small step back I can't hear it ever, and I definitely can't hear it from my listening position so I don't really care. There is no such sound out of my left speaker. I can't hear it out of headphones when operating the Phoenix as a headamp single-ended. I suspect it has to do with the balanced output only. I will compare using the rca outputs sometime to verify.

 Oh and the clicking sound doesn't go away for me after the amp is warmed up.


----------



## pompon

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_But she can encourage me all she wants. Once I buy the Ref-1 and the custom SB transport Kingwa is working on, my money will be completely tapped out._

 

You have a good girlfriend! Mine is nice too! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 What is this secret Squeezebox transport you talking about ?


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Mik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My Phoenix also has a very faint constant clicking sound which can only be heard out of the (beryllium) tweeter in my right speaker. It is at a constant volume regardless of the volume setting on the Phoenix. I can only hear it when I walk right up to my right speaker and put my ear pretty much right on the tweeter. As soon as I take even a small step back I can't hear it ever, and I definitely can't hear it from my listening position so I don't really care. There is no such sound out of my left speaker. I can't hear it out of headphones when operating the Phoenix as a headamp single-ended. I suspect it has to do with the balanced output only. I will compare using the rca outputs sometime to verify.

 Oh and the clicking sound doesn't go away for me after the amp is warmed up._

 

This to me is unacceptable. Surely you would hear that with your headphones, no? I'm glad my amp has no such problem. But it has others.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pompon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What is this secret Squeezebox transport you talking about ? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I posted about it in this thread many pages ago.


----------



## tangerine

Ok, i checked Audio-gd webside but on the first page you see almost only his PAYPAL account adress :audio-gd@vip.163.com so will look further on the other sides what he is offering


----------



## haloxt

Here's the phoenix webpage, it is not very fluent English so don't try too hard to understand the website 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.

ÐÂ½¨ÍøÒ³ 1


----------



## pedalhead

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_One of you asked earlier what I am working on with Kingwa.... well, I don't think he wants to add it to his product line but I am trying to convince him otherwise. Here is what I have asked him to do for me:

 I want him to turn the Squeezebox receiver into a very high end transport, way beyond what the Logitech Transporter can do -- and put it into the same style chassis as the Phoenix.

 Kingwa, Here is what you should know:

 -- I want the color changing logo on the front of the Duet to be on the front of the chassis. It is also a button for connecting to Wi-Fi. Very nice and clean like the front of the REF-1.
 -- I already have a regulated power supply for the Duet. You can remove it from the case and hardwire it directly to the Duet. (Or you can make your
 own regulated or regenerated power supply which is probably best.)
 -- I only need the digital output section, not the analog.
 -- You can convert the digital coax output to CAST maybe, if not, to BNC to go into your REF-1.
 -- It also has optical output but we don't need to include that if it degrades sound quality.
 -- You will need to upgrade the clock to something high quality like the Audiocom Superclock with PSU, or the DEXA Neutron Star, or if your reclocker is better in the Ref3 that works too.
 -- IEC input on the back of the chassis
 -- Please completely separate the Wi-Fi receiver section from the audio section and isolate both from interference. There should be an extended range Wi-Fi antenna inside the chassis. If this still degrades sound quality we can move the Wi-Fi section to a second smaller chassis. We will also isolate the Ethernet from the digital audio section.
 -- The Squeezebox only handles 16/44.1 but the Logitech Transporter handles up to 24/96, so we need to modify the squeezebox to accept 24/96 files.
 -- Perhaps we should include an optional upsampler that we can turn on and off, if it does not degrade sound quality going into the REF1 or other DACs.

 If anyone has any other ideas, please feel free to post them. I imagine it will take a few months to complete, but good things come to those who wait. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I think this is the post you're looking for, pompom. I'm using a SB3 as my primary source & I'd pay proper money if the above made a significant difference to digital out sq. As you've said, the ipod touch/ipeng control solution is superbly convenient & I really couldn't see myself going back to spinning discs.


----------



## The Monkey

Doesn't that kinda raise some IP issues?


----------



## pedalhead

I suspect if customers provided the Squeezebox, there shouldn't be any issues. It's essentially just an aftermarket mod (albeit quite a drastic one).


----------



## Yikes

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Mik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My Phoenix also has a very faint constant clicking sound which can only be heard out of the (beryllium) tweeter in my right speaker. It is at a constant volume regardless of the volume setting on the Phoenix. I can only hear it when I walk right up to my right speaker and put my ear pretty much right on the tweeter. As soon as I take even a small step back I can't hear it ever, and I definitely can't hear it from my listening position so I don't really care. There is no such sound out of my left speaker. I can't hear it out of headphones when operating the Phoenix as a headamp single-ended. I suspect it has to do with the balanced output only. I will compare using the rca outputs sometime to verify.

 Oh and the clicking sound doesn't go away for me after the amp is warmed up._

 

Since I don't normally listen to my Usher BE-20's (beryllium Tweeter and Midrange drivers) with my ear against the tweeter I do not know if my Phoenix exhibits this issue. I'll make an effort to see if it does. Many preamps, amps, whatever do have very low level noise that is never heard under normal listening. Placing your ear inches in front of the tweeter is hardly normal listening. IMO this level of noise is not an issue. I draw the line when a noise is audible at about 3 or 4 feet.

 It's not surprising that the sound is audible through the tweeters and not headphones. Headphones receive the entire bandwidth so the noise in question may be masked by more benign full spectrum background noise, whereas a tweeters input is only the higher frequencies. Also no headphone has the high frequency performance of the best beryllium or diamond tweeters. Headphones drivers are to some degree compromised (As high frequency transducers in comparison to the best beryllium or diamond tweeters) by their need to reproduce the entire audible spectrum.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *The Monkey* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Doesn't that kinda raise some IP issues?_

 

There are other companies that sell fully modified high-end SB transports.

 Either way, if someone sends their SB to him I think that would put him in the clear. And that's the only way it could work anyway because Kingwa told me the price of the SB in China is almost 75% more than here.


----------



## moonboy403

I just hooked up my ECD1 to the Phoenix via the balanced interconnect that I just got and now I'm wondering whether I should recable my W5000 even though I already placed my order. I'm afraid that I won't have enough volume steps to play with since I'm listening at 11/99 steps right now and it's already plenty loud for me. 

 For those of you who run a fully balanced rig and own balanced Denons (which has a lower impedance and a higher sensitivity than the W5000), what step are you guys at? 1? 2?


----------



## Bob Jones

Saga continues!With invaluable help from Les determined headphone output "door nail dead",so it goes.E-mailed Kingwa and go from there.Oh well.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bob Jones* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Saga continues!With invaluable help from Les determined headphone output "door nail dead",so it goes.E-mailed Kingwa and go from there.Oh well._

 

Let us know what Kingwa says. He may have something he can trouble shoot with the Debug switch. I don't think so, but you never can tell. Good Luck!

 .


----------



## Bob Jones

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Let us know what Kingwa says. He may have something he can trouble shoot with the Debug switch. I don't think so, but you never can tell. Good Luck!

 ._

 

Kingwa e-mailed and he thinks it's the signal cable.All the pins are straight and have continuity.He wants pics next.


----------



## Yikes

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bob Jones* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Kingwa e-mailed and he thinks it's the signal cable.All the pins are straight and have continuity.He wants pics next._

 

I believe that you're talking about the data cable that goes from the PS/Controller to the Amplifier unit. That could easily be the problem. It sends the signals to the Amplifier unit to change volume and source. If the Data Cable is defective in some way the Amplifier may not be receiving the signal to raise the volume, or to unmute. It could very well be the problem, and would be a quick replacement.

 Here's hoping that it is the cable.


----------



## Yikes

As far as a ticking noise. When Cold there is a very slight ticking noise in the right channel. It goes away within 10-20 minutes and it is extremely minor, I need to hold my ear within about 6" of the Beryllium Tweeter, it's not audible from the Beryllium Midrange driver.

 I really want to emphasize that it's extremely low level and is in no way an issue (IMO), but it is there when cold.

 I continue to be impressed by the Phoenix's functional operation, and it's sound quality. I can't definitively quantify its performance as a headphone amplifier. For that evaluation I need to get my 701's and 7000's back and do a lot of serious listening. I'm confident that it's at the very least an amazing value. As far as its performance as a preamp, it's very good. I'd say on an ultimate scale it's about an 8 out of 10. When the best preamps would be a 10.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bob Jones* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Kingwa e-mailed and he thinks it's the signal cable.All the pins are straight and have continuity.He wants pics next._

 

We're praying for ya!

 .


----------



## Bob Jones

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_We're praying for ya!

 ._

 

Thanks Les "NPI"for the kind words.Went looking for a male to male straight wire signal cable but couldn't find any.When I got home Kingwa e-mailed and said it wouldn't work anyway without the 2 external white wires.That was my limit.
 PS Just so happens I have a drink waiting to help me decide.If it's better to hope it's just the cable or,it better be something worse.Sometimes it's not about the journey


----------



## moonboy403

If you're not in a hurry, perhaps you can send off your cable to one of us Phoenix owners and we can test it out for ya? That'll at least eliminate one possibility.


----------



## haloxt

What does he mean it won't work without the 2 external white wires? I'm using it without those right now (I'm serious). If you don't mind please repost what Kingwa wrote I think you misunderstood him.


----------



## Bob Jones

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *moonboy403* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If you're not in a hurry, perhaps you can send off your cable to one of us Phoenix owners and we can test it out for ya? That'll at least eliminate one possibility._

 

That's the head-fi spirit
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




I believe Kingwa will ship a cable when he see's the pics.


----------



## Yikes

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bob Jones* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's the head-fi spirit
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




I believe Kingwa will ship a cable when he see's the pics._

 

Are they naughty?


----------



## Currawong

Straight through DB9 serial cables:

DB9 Serial Cable Male to Male at Cables4computer

 or Google straight through db9 serial cable male to male -female


----------



## IPodPJ

*Phoenix Discovery 101*

 Ever since I got back from the meet I've felt something is missing from the Phoenix -- that even though it has better layering in my opinion than the B22, it just doesn't have the detail or bass impact of the B22. It sounds thinner and lacking body, and the bass is muddy and lacking detail in comparison. Or should I say....... it _did_.

 Well today when I got home from work I tried plugging back in the stock Sennheiser cable to see if SE would have more body to it even though the separation and detail wouldn't be on par with balanced. It did. So then I got thinking of some stuff Jude and I were discussing, about output impedance of amps and how the HD800 seem to prefer a higher output impedance, something we've both noticed. Maybe the Phoenix would benefit from adding a resistor(?) to the balanced headphone output since the Phoenix's output impedance is 3 ohm. Well I can't do that now on my own so I was wondering what else I could try. For the heck of it I decided to plug my SE interconnects back in -- from my WBT Nextgen outputs on my DAC to input 1 on the Phoenix -- all the while still using the balanced headphone outputs. Presto!

 The XLR inputs on the Phoenix are subpar. But the good thing is that the amp is every bit as good as the balanced B22 now (as best as I can recollect). I can't explain why this is as it seems to defy normal logic if everything is wired the same. Obviously the balanced outputs on my DAC are fine because they sounded great with the B22. Therefore I conclude that the XLR inputs on the Phoenix are either wired in such a way that is hindering performance, or the more likely scenario: they are just poor quality connectors. If SE sounds this good I can't wait to hear what the CAST inputs sound like. (Had I known at the time I bought the Phoenix that I would be getting the Reference One, I would have had Lemo connectors installed on both the Phoenix and the Reference One.)

 I suggest all of you Phoenix owners running balanced headphones give this a try. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Also, let me mention that the WBT Nextgen connectors are supposedly the best SE connectors on the market. They reduce eddy currents more than any other connector including the Eichman Bullets. So perhaps if there were better XLR connectors installed on the Phoenix the issue I'm encountering would no longer be an issue. I think I'm going to have to replace them. The bass coming out of the HD800 now is just awesome. And the bass on the HD800 is the hardest part to control due to its crazy impedance curve -- it jumps from 300 ohm to 600 ohm at 100 Hz. and then back down to 300 ohm again. Anyone that says the HD800 have poor or little bass have obviously never heard them with the Phoenix or balanced B22.


----------



## haloxt

Maybe XRL ^^ adds too much detail on top of your already very detailed headphones. I get edgy when barraged with all-encompassing realism from 1 inch from my ears, so when I need to relax I listen to the monotone droning of my mp3 player and mid-fi headphones. I'd like to use the Phoenix in a speaker setup one day though, just need to buy speakers and an amp doh.


----------



## IPodPJ

No, it's just the opposite. The XLR input is less detailed and muddier. But my system isn't edgy at all. It took a lot of power cord matching (especially with my transport) to get it to sound like smooth analog and not edgy digital.

 If your headphone system sounds edgy and makes you feel fatigued, your components need fine tuning or replacement -- eventually. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It took me a long time and a lot of money to get it to sound as good as it does. This isn't a cheap hobby, but surely cheaper than high-end amateur astronomy which is something I could never afford to get into. I did have a nice telescope at one point, a 10" Meade Schmidt-Cassegrain (and unfortunately had to sell it a long time ago) but it didn't come close to comparing to the very expensive apochromatic refractors I used to look through at star parties on Mt. Pinos.


----------



## JamesL

Didn't you say earlier that the bal input bal output sounded miles better than the se input bal output? 
 It doesn't defy logic though as you say... 
 There would have to be a SE-balanced converter of some sort in order to run your balanced headphones. Either that, or the amp automatically switches the negative rails of your balanced output to passive ground. 

 Also, unbalanced interconnects(and connectors) are technically inferior to balanced interconnects (unless you're using some fancy unorthodox balanced IC's that degrade performance)


----------



## haloxt

The sound isn't edgy, I am just getting disturbed at having realistic sound coming at me from 1".


----------



## Currawong

I thought the XLRs are all Neutrik? Anyway, using all three outputs of the Ref 1 to all 3 inputs of the Phoenix, using the same model cable for RCA and XLR, and there wasn't much in it, at least nothing that couldn't be suggested by slightly different volume levels. It could be your DAC. You should also consider getting an SPL meter to be sure it isn't a result of volume levels being different.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JamesL* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Didn't you say earlier that the bal input bal output sounded miles better than the se input bal output? 
 It doesn't defy logic though as you say... 
 There would have to be a SE-balanced converter of some sort in order to run your balanced headphones. Either that, or the amp automatically switches the negative rails of your balanced output to passive ground. 

 Also, unbalanced interconnects(and connectors) are technically inferior to balanced interconnects (unless you're using some fancy unorthodox balanced IC's that degrade performance)_

 

Initially when I got the amp I did say that yes, but I also hadn't spent much time with it and it had very few hours on it compared to now, as well as no hours put on the balanced headphone cable, and not nearly as many hours on the HD800. In addition, I did a lot of power cable swapping after that, I let the amp warm up now for several hours before I use it, I use optical now whereas I used coax before, and I now also use 96kHz upsampling vs. 192kHz -- many variables have changed.

 As far as how it does the conversion, you'd have to ask Kingwa on that. I have no idea.


----------



## Yikes

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ I use optical now whereas I used coax before, and I now also use 96kHz upsampling vs. 192kHz -- many variables have changed._

 

TOS optical (Even the best OPT cables) is nowhere near as good as any properly implemented COAX 75 Ohm digital cable. It's almost as crappy as using a USB connection.

 I believe that you are hearing what you say, but I suspect that you are obsessing and convincing yourself into hearing new issues. You might need to take a Zanex and try to enjoy the music.

 If you're not careful Audiophilia Nervosa can suck all of the joy out of listening to the music that got you into it in the first place.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_TOS optical (Even the best OPT cables) is nowhere near as good as any properly implemented COAX 75 Ohm digital cable. It's almost as crappy as using a USB connection.

 I believe that you are hearing what you say, but I suspect that you are obsessing and convincing yourself into hearing new issues. You might need to take a Zanex and try to enjoy the music.

 If you're not careful Audiophilia Nervosa can suck all of the joy out of listening to the music that got you into it in the first place._

 

Well I will use BNC with the Ref-1, for sure. And no, optical is still way better than any implementation I've heard with USB. But I do agree that the coax is not properly implemented or there would be no sonic difference between cables.

 How about you just don't comment on me obsessing or convincing myself or think I'm delusional yadda yadda yadda... if you don't believe it, just don't respond. We are all here to post our impressions and what we notice. If I had said that the Phoenix had a minor clicking noise in the right channel you wouldn't believe me on that either I'm sure. Funny how my amp seems to be one of the only ones without that issue. And I did a back and forth comparison with SE and XLR input for my girlfriend and she agrees that SE sounds better.

 Nothing is sucking the joy out of this hobby. I enjoy tuning my system to get the best sound possible as much as I enjoy sitting and listening to the music, as much as I enjoy talking to people at meets. It's part of the hobby and I love all aspects equally. You do not have my headphones or my system so you cannot possibly say what is or what is not different. And we have established that every Phoenix so far has had different issues so to dismiss the fact that mine sounds better one way (even if yours does not) is just foolish.

 I will be using CAST (assuming I like the Reference One) and once he completes my Squeezebox transport in a few months I will use BNC to the DAC. I choose to use optical with my DL3 because I was tired of hearing variations/setbacks in certain parts of the frequency spectrum due to signal reflections from (what I believe to be) poor, non 75-ohm impedance mismatching on both DAC and SB. I have a very good clock in my DL3 so jitter is a non-issue there (Audiocom Superclock 4-S, <2ps) but I'm sure there are issues with the SB which is why I asked Kingwa to make me a high quality one.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Les, how are your DIY Lemo CAST cables coming along ? 

 Peete.

 PS: My amp behaves without issue, no clicking, no cold start relay hunting. I'll take it. 

 PJ turn off upsampling and listen to the source material at it's original bit/sampling rate and see if the upsampling option is adding unwanted side effects. I have a Anagram tech hardware upsampler that no matter what I did up or downstream of it I couldn't eliminate entirely a sheen or effect that was applied to everything that it resampled/reclocked (24/192 oddly enough which your GF pointed out).Try the files at their native rates for a few days and report back. I can't stand upsampling anymore but that is just me. As always EMMV (everyone's mileage may vary 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 compared to mine


----------



## Pyriel0

Lol great avatar Peete 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Have there been any other thoughts after initial impressions from other people? If there were, I missed them from all Ipodpj's posting.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Les, how are your DIY Lemo CAST cables coming along ? 

 Peete._

 

Finished tem a couple weeks ago.

 .


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Finished tem a couple weeks ago.

 ._

 

and 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Whaddya think vs SE or regular balanced ?

 Peete.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_PJ turn off upsampling and listen to the source material at it's original bit/sampling rate and see if the upsampling option is adding unwanted side effects. I have a Anagram tech hardware upsampler that no matter what I did up or downstream of it I couldn't eliminate entirely a sheen or effect that was applied to everything that it resampled/reclocked (24/192 oddly enough which your GF pointed out).Try the files at their native rates for a few days and report back. I can't stand upsampling anymore but that is just me. As always EMMV (everyone's mileage may vary 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 compared to mine 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I take it you're unfamiliar with the PS Audio DL3. You can't turn it off. You have two options: 96kHz or 192kHz. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I wish it had Anagram Technologies gear inside of it though. Anagram does it better than anyone else.


----------



## moonboy403

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I take it you're unfamiliar with the PS Audio DL3. You can't turn it off. You have two options: 96kHz or 192kHz. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

My DAC's upsampling of 24/192 is undefeatable too.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_and 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Whaddya think vs SE or regular balanced ?

 Peete._

 

Just hooked it up and let it run, have not A/B'd them. Sounds great. Luckily Kingwa did all the work for me! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 .


----------



## pompon

IPODPJ:

 You have said XLR input + XLR output was vastly superior to SE Input + XLR output when you have done the Zana vs Phoenix earlier ... You completely changed you mind ?


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pompon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_IPODPJ:

 You have said XLR input + XLR output was vastly superior to SE Input + XLR output when you have done the Zana vs Phoenix earlier ... You completely changed you mind ?_

 

See post #1627 on the previous page.

 Balanced input has slightly better separation but SE has more body, impact and is a tad more detailed. Once I put better XLR connectors on the amp I'm sure this won't be the case.


----------



## pompon

Humm ... strange ... XLR should be better than single end.

 If your source is a true balanced or just XLR output (but not a true balanced operation) ?

 Do you have good XLR cables ?


----------



## IPodPJ

Yes, it is a truly balanced DAC. The XLR cables are the Sharkwire that Kingwa made and they were superb with the balanced B22.

 Also, I never do any comparisons until the amp has been warming up for at least 3 or 4 hours. There are too many sonic changes that occur during that time period which would give false results. In addition, I prefer to do these comparisons after 2 a.m. when the power usage is lowest and the chance for line noise spikes are at a minimum. (I really need a regenerator.)


----------



## Charnwood

Perhaps I should have asked this before I ordered a pair of balanced LA7000s, but how good a match is the Phoenix for Denons? I notice several of the regular posters here have Denons so I guess there's not too much of a problem. 

 I was originally going to go with HD800s but they are still not readily available here in the UK. I decided on the LA7000s with they idea that will offer a contrast to the HD800s if I should decide to get a pair of those too when they are more readily available.

 Thanks for all the feedback on Phoenix as preamp.

 I'm thinking of partnering the Pheonix with a Chord QBD76 Dac since my local dealer can offer me a very good deal on one at the moment. I should be getting one on demo for a couple weeks about the time I'm expecting the phoenix to arrive.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I take it you're unfamiliar with the PS Audio DL3. You can't turn it off. You have two options: 96kHz or 192kHz. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I wish it had Anagram Technologies gear inside of it though. Anagram does it better than anyone else._

 

As you have pointed out my familiarity with the DLIII is pretty poor. I should have looked it up before typing and suggesting something that can't be done.....
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The Anagram module does a great job don't get me wrong, I just couldn't accept the effect it was giving everything it upsampled.

 Peete.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Charnwood* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Perhaps I should have asked this before I ordered a pair of balanced LA7000s, but how good a match is the Phoenix for Denons? I notice several of the regular posters here have Denons so I guess there's not too much of a problem. 

 I was originally going to go with HD800s but they are still not readily available here in the UK. I decided on the LA7000s with they idea that will offer a contrast to the HD800s if I should decide to get a pair of those too when they are more readily available.

 Thanks for all the feedback on Phoenix as preamp.

 I'm thinking of partnering the Pheonix with a Chord QBD76 Dac since my local dealer can offer me a very good deal on one at the moment. I should be getting one on demo for a couple weeks about the time I'm expecting the phoenix to arrive._

 

I'm listening to balanced D5000s and SE LA7000 and they are both awesome on the Phoenix. The LA7000 is a nice can BTW. It's "forcing" me to do something about my D5000.

 .


----------



## Charnwood

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm listening to balanced D5000s and SE LA7000 and they are both awesome on the Phoenix. The LA7000 is a nice can BTW. It's "forcing" me to do something about my D5000.

 ._

 

Thanks for that. Both the Phoenix and the LA7000s are something of a "leap of faith" for me and at this stage of the wait I need some reassurance.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Charnwood* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks for that. Both the Phoenix and the LA7000s are something of a "leap of faith" for me and at this stage of the wait I need some reassurance._

 

The LA7000 is an awesome can and *greatly* different/better than the D5000 or presumably the D2000. Like I said, listening to it is forcing me to mod my D5000 to "fix" the sound. If I don't get the effect I want than I'll get a D7000 and send it to Mark. They both do very well with the Phoenix though.

 .


----------



## IPodPJ

Les,
 Do you have any plans on getting a pair of HD800?
 Only reason I'm asking is because I have a modded pair of D5000. And I've heard the D7000 as well through the Phoenix.
 Before you mod your D5000 or get a D7000 you may want to check out the HD800, if it was in your line of sight. I doubt you'd be listening much to your Denons after that. I know I don't.

 But if you do want a modded pair of D5000, I'm selling mine.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Les,
 Do you have any plans on getting a pair of HD800?
 Only reason I'm asking is because I have a modded pair of D5000. And I've heard the D7000 as well through the Phoenix.
 Before you mod your D5000 or get a D7000 you may want to check out the HD800, if it was in your line of sight. I doubt you'd be listening much to your Denons after that. I know I don't.

 But if you do want a modded pair of D5000, I'm selling mine._

 

I'm pursuing the Denon sound at presnt. Nothing about the reviews of the HD800 makes me want to go out of my way for them.


----------



## moonboy403

I just got through the micro-meet with Mike(mike1127) and Donald(Donald North). Donald brought his Audio Note Kit 1 along with the K1000. 

 Here was the test setup: Electrocompaniet ECD-1 --> Phoenix via XLR/Audio Note via SE --> K1000 using 4 pin balanced connector

 First of all, the Phoenix is loud enough(for me) with the K1000. I was listening to the K1000 with volume step of 50/70. IMO, the K1000 out of the Audio Note sounded fantastic while it's only a great headphone out of the Phoenix. 

 With the Audio Note, the K1000 sounded very lively though slightly bright, you get a huge soundstage with incredible width and depth that no other headphones can match, the mids is very meaty and pure. Even though the criticism of the K1000 has always been the rolled off bass starting from around 50hz, I didn't feel like it was lacking. Bass in general was very punchy with drums and cello sounded equally excellent with plenty of bass texture.

 Moving on to the Phoenix. The first thing that jumped out at me was the midrange, or lack thereof. It sounded a bit recessed in contrast to the Audio Note. The highs are less detailed (probably because it's not as bright) while bass lacks the texture and punch that I get from the Audio Note. The Phoenix did, however, retained the fantastically wide open soundstage that the Audio Note brought.

 I really need to get a K1000! Perhaps along with the Audio Note Kit 1.


----------



## Yikes

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well I will use BNC with the Ref-1, for sure. And no, optical is still way better than any implementation I've heard with USB. But I do agree that the coax is not properly implemented or there would be no sonic difference between cables.

 How about you just don't comment on me obsessing or convincing myself or think I'm delusional yadda yadda yadda... if you don't believe it, just don't respond. We are all here to post our impressions and what we notice. If I had said that the Phoenix had a minor clicking noise in the right channel you wouldn't believe me on that either I'm sure. Funny how my amp seems to be one of the only ones without that issue. And I did a back and forth comparison with SE and XLR input for my girlfriend and she agrees that SE sounds better.

 Nothing is sucking the joy out of this hobby. I enjoy tuning my system to get the best sound possible as much as I enjoy sitting and listening to the music, as much as I enjoy talking to people at meets. It's part of the hobby and I love all aspects equally. You do not have my headphones or my system so you cannot possibly say what is or what is not different. And we have established that every Phoenix so far has had different issues so to dismiss the fact that mine sounds better one way (even if yours does not) is just foolish.

 I will be using CAST (assuming I like the Reference One) and once he completes my Squeezebox transport in a few months I will use BNC to the DAC. I choose to use optical with my DL3 because I was tired of hearing variations/setbacks in certain parts of the frequency spectrum due to signal reflections from (what I believe to be) poor, non 75-ohm impedance mismatching on both DAC and SB. I have a very good clock in my DL3 so jitter is a non-issue there (Audiocom Superclock 4-S, <2ps) but I'm sure there are issues with the SB which is why I asked Kingwa to make me a high quality one._

 

This morning I wrote a long reply to your post. Then just before I posted I accidentally hit the side button on my Logitech mouse, it works as a back button. The entire post was lost. To be honest I don't have the energy to argue with you. You're the freaking Energizer Bunny of Audio. Just be aware that the fates saved you from a ferocious tongue lashing, so consider yourself lashed.

 I'm just about done with this thread in any case. I might post once I get a handle on the Phoenix's performance as a headphone amp, and everyone knows that I feel it's a great preamp, so not much more to add.


----------



## The Monkey

Yikes, I'd be interested in your impressions re the headphone amp, so please do report back.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *The Monkey* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yikes, I'd be interested in your impressions re the headphone amp, so please do report back._

 

X2 

 Peete.


----------



## ztsen

Hi, is it significant improvement to change D5000 from SE to balance?


----------



## IPodPJ

I just got an e-mail from a DIYer from the Audio-gd forums. He had this to say:

 Dear Phil
 I'm a guy from HK,one of the DIYer since 1964 ,now I owned A-gd gears CD3
 RE1 C39 and C1 but not the head-fi'er .I only have D2000 for slave listening!
 We discovered Kingwa use the original inout lead wire not the good way to show all the performance for his products! now we used Cardas single Litz wire instead the silver wire Cardas Single Wire picture by scericli - Photobucket
 If you believe what I say, all the sound from phoenix will be great improve!


 So does anyone want to give this a try?

 Edit: This DIYer, Eric, also called Kingwa to tell him this. Kingwa confirmed this but says it would add to the cost of the Phoenix which he doesn't want to do. Perhaps you could have him do this as an add-on for extra cost.

 So what's involved in switching out the in/out leads? I sent an e-mail to Kyle @ RAM asking if he can do this for me, and if he sees any other parts that could benefit from replacing to do those too.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

It would be a fairly easy project IMO PJ. The wire itself you'd likely only need 1m of it to completely rewire the I/O jacks on the back panel (and have some left over).

 If you find a source for this wire let me know...I'm definitely interested in this tweak (for the CD7 and RE1 as well).

 I bet 2M worth would be plenty for all 3.

 Peete.


----------



## IPodPJ

Is this it?
 I just don't know what gauge we need.

Cardas 15.5 awg. copper litz hook-up wire Blue

 All sizes:
http://www.partsconnexion.com/wire_hookup_cardas.html


----------



## JamesL

15.5g is speaker-wire territory. I'd use the 23.5g.
 You can also get cardas litz from michael percy's audio


----------



## Currawong

Cheaper here too. That would be worth my while doing, re-wiring all the connections. Pity there aren't 3 colours though.


----------



## Yikes

Please be forewarned; To properly work with Litz wire you need to have a Solder Pot that may need to maintain temperature up to 800 degrees F. It's a royal pain in the ass, and IMO not even the best wire to use. But I can't say.

 Not to mention that if kingwa had a lick of sense any such modification would void the warranty.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Please be forewarned; To properly work with Litz wire you need to have a Solder Pot that may need to maintain temperature up to 800 degrees F. It's a royal pain in the ass, and IMO not even the best wire to use. But I can't say.

 Not to mention that if kingwa had a lick of sense any such modification would void the warranty._

 

Good points. 

 Peete.


----------



## les_garten

I just re-cabled some Denons with Cardas 4x24 Litz and it is a PITA even with a Solder pot.

Litz wire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 You also have this niggling feeling in the back of your mind about whether you got every strand stripped. If I were a betting man, I would bet that 90% of the Litz wire done by DIYers is improperly terminated.

 Here's a PIC of the end of Cardas 4x24 showing approx 16 individual strands in each conductor. Each individual copper strand is insulated from all the other strands. You can imagine how difficult to get each one stripped properly.

 .


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Thanks for the heads up Yikes and Les.......the prep this wire requires has given me considerable pause for thought.

 I have some 22 ga solid silver wire (+ Teflon tubing ) that would be far easier to work with but I'm not sure it would be a leg up from the stock wire (stranded silver plated copper ).

 Having to hand scrape all those individual connectors on the Cardas litz.....yeesh.

 Peete.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks for the heads up Yikes and Les.......the prep this wire requires has given me considerable pause for thought.

 I have some 22 ga solid silver wire (+ Teflon tubing ) that would be far easier to work with but I'm not sure it would be a leg up from the stock wire (stranded silver plated copper ).

 Having to hand scrape all those individual connectors on the Cardas litz.....yeesh.

 Peete._

 

 I think the theory of Litz wire is awesome. I'm never quit certain even with a solder POT if I got all the wires stripped. Anybody that "thinks" they can scrape or sand them clean is kidding themselves, and if you can't get the wire terminated properly than why use Litz ehhh?

 There's some techniques in the DIY forum about scraping with an exacto knife and one about sanding on a glass plate. All grossly sub par. 

 Cardas sells a mini solder pot but it's as expensive as a REAL solder pot. The other technique you can do is take a cheap soldering iron, remove the tip, clamp it upright, and use the tip well as a mini solder pot. Dangerous, but would work.

 .


----------



## IPodPJ

Les,
 So even in the single litz wire each strand is individually covered?? That would be a lot of work. Is there a way you could just melt it off with the soldering iron?

 If they are all individually covered, I don't understand the benefit if each strand gets soldered to the same receptacle anyway. Is it to reduce EMI?


----------



## IPodPJ

Kyle @ RAM *is* going to do this for me.


----------



## moonboy403

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Kyle @ RAM *is* going to do this for me._

 

For how much?


----------



## IPodPJ

That I won't mention here. You should ask him directly because I don't know what he wants to charge everyone to do it. Plus, I don't know if we are going to mod other parts inside the amp.

 He recommends using a different wire and he is going to call me now to go over this. I'll let you know what we come up with soon.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

I'm all ears PJ......drop me a PM later on if you can disclose any info on prepped litz.

 Peete.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Les,
 So even in the single litz wire each strand is individually covered?? That would be a lot of work. Is there a way you could just melt it off with the soldering iron?

 If they are all individually covered, I don't understand the benefit if each strand gets soldered to the same receptacle anyway. Is it to reduce EMI?_

 

Each Individual strand is it's own insulated conductor. This makes the cable, because of skin effect, effectively very large in diameter. You have a lot of little skins to transport your signal. How the common endpoint effects it, I don't know. I have contemplated it a little though. and I suppose the answer is that as much of the end points as possible need to be coordinated /incorporated into the solder end point.

 I tried it with a soldering iron set at about 865. I just ended up with a weird glistening mess that solder would not stick to. Some people have said soldering irons would work in the DIY forum, but I tried it for fun and was unsuccessful. 

 It works pretty well with a soldering pot. That's why the mini pots people build are probably the way to go. 


 .


----------



## Lil' Knight

The Cardas 23.5g wire is pretty small and quite hard to work with. I bought a bunch to make some interconnects for my own but it turned out to be too microphonic. Using it as a nice chassis wire is a nice idea though.

 I'd suggest the Neotech UP-OCC wire. It's solid core and made of very pure copper. To my ears, it sounds much better than the Cardas. You guys nuts can get the UP-OCC pure silver in teflon 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I'm not that rich to buy that.

 BTW, if anyone need some Cardas 23.5g, just lemme know. I still have a lot, about 24ft, after my last project.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Lil' Knight* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The Cardas 23.5g wire is pretty small and quite hard to work with. I bought a bunch to make some interconnects for my own but it turned out to be too microphonic. Using it as a nice chassis wire is a nice idea though.

 I'd suggest the Neotech UP-OCC wire. It's solid core and made of very pure copper. To my ears, it sounds much better than the Cardas. You guys nuts can get the UP-OCC pure silver in teflon 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'm not that rich to buy that.

 BTW, if anyone need some Cardas 23.5g, just lemme know. I still have a lot, about 24ft, after my last project._

 

I would say that is my experience also. I take no pleasure in working with that wire!

 .


----------



## Bob Jones

Thanks to haloxt who was kind enough to send me a signal cable,I got to try the amp.It STILL doesn't work.Tried all combinations to no avail.So all this effort by everybody to solve this problem brings me to this point.Time for Kingwa to step up to the plate and ship another unit immediately.I've done enough and WAITED LONG ENOUGH.Nothing left to do,but say thanks for the help and support.


----------



## IPodPJ

Gary,
 In about 3 weeks (after I get my Reference One) I am going to go down to Kyle's shop in Riverside. You can come with me and bring your Phoenix. He will mod it then and we are going to experiment with what sounds best. He recommends using Audio Consulting wire.

 His philosophy is completely opposite of Kingwa's. He feels the best results with DACs come from running it cool where no heat sinks are even needed. I explained to him how Kingwa does it differently and why he feels that way. So we may do some mods on the Reference One as well, but I am not going to alter the design of the DAC. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Just to replace the wire he will charge very little for labor but I don't know if it will be more for doing the litz wire. Anyone who is interested should contact Kyle directly at referenceaudiomods@yahoo.com so you can ask him. Maybe you'd prefer to wait though until after he works on my amp so we can find what works best. I will have the Reference One before I go down to his shop so we can experiment with what is optimal using both CAST and XLR inputs, and mods to both amp and DAC.

 None of this would have ever crossed my mind if it weren't for this guy Eric sending me an e-mail last night. The only thing I was considering was replacing the connectors on the amp.


----------



## moonboy403

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm all ears PJ......drop me a PM later on if you can disclose any info on prepped litz.

 Peete._

 

X2...drop me a PM too.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

PJ I'd highly suggest you leave the RE1 alone until you have it fully burned in first since you'll not know what the starting point is with it (base SQ) if you mod the wiring right away. The Phoenix still needs more time IMO but I'm sure the upgraded wiring (to both) is a good tweak and well worth persuing. The stock Neutrik XLRs are fine IMO and need not be swapped unless you have money to burn and if you do, then by all means....Furutech makes nice ones (35 US per chassis jack for gold plated and 51US for Rhodium plated). That can get expensive in a bloody hurry and the kicker is the wiring swap will likely be the lions share of the improvement at 1/10th the cost..(IMO at least).

 I really feel the RE1 is better than any DAC I've used over the years...heat/no heat, that doesn't really factor into somethings worth as a piece of capable gear IMO. The RE1 is 70% power supply (multiple dual parallel supplies...well you'll see when yours arrives) which will produce heat. There is no way around that. That being said mine runs just slightly warm now.....so it's not really a concern at all.

 Peete.


----------



## Yikes

At some point I might have the inputs and output rewired with my own wire, but it's still way to early for that. The Phoenix is a relatively sophisticated piece of electronics. IMO it's too early to be modding it and voiding it's warranty. Next year I'll consider sticking some ultra slick Silver/Gold wire in it, but for now I'm going to enjoy it as it is.


----------



## IPodPJ

Just out of curiosity, if Kingwa sends people replacement parts to have them fix their own units, why would changing the wires void the warranty? If something fails and it has nothing to do with the input/output leads, I can't see why it would make a difference. However I do understand if you start changing caps that that would void the warranty most likely or at the very least you would have to pay for part of the repair.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

The trouble is where do you draw the line PJ ? Not everyone's skills are equal.

 Peete.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just out of curiosity, if Kingwa sends people replacement parts to have them fix their own units, why would changing the wires void the warranty? If something fails and it has nothing to do with the input/output leads, I can't see why it would make a difference. However I do understand if you start changing caps that that would void the warranty most likely or at the very least you would have to pay for part of the repair._

 

Well, here goes.. If Kingwa ships you a board to fix something, he is doing it for his advantage and your advantage.

*His advantage: * He avoids to and Fro shipping costs. That he would have to eat to do the fix.
*Your advantage:* You avoid the downtime for your gear. And avoid possibly more damage due to frequent flights across the Pacific Ocean.

 However, you start poking around and doing "MODZ" that's a different kettle of fish. I wouldn't expect warranty for that. 

 If I decide I'm going to rewire my boards and end up lifting a trace, I would expect to have to pay for the new board.

 .


----------



## IPodPJ

Makes sense.

 Luckily though if I pay RAM to do it and he screws up, he has to fix it.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Agreed 100% Les.


 Peete.

 PS: Les have you tried the RE1/Phoenix combo with your main rig yet ? It's definitely worth the hassle.


----------



## jp11801

Members here should be cautious regarding RAM and Kyle and perform some due dilligence prior to handng over any of your hard earned cash.


----------



## Steve Eddy

Just a couple of comments about litz wire.

 The Wikipedia article is a good one, but one portion of it deserves to be emphasized:

_Litz wire uses some different tricks. Instead of using one big conductor, it uses lots of little conductors (strands) in parallel (forming a bundle). Each little conductor is less than a skin-depth, so an individual strand does not suffer an appreciable skin effect loss. However, that is not the complete story. The strands must be insulated from each other -- otherwise all the wires in the bundle would short together, look like a single large wire, and still have skin effect problems. *Furthermore, the strands cannot occupy the same radial position in the bundle: the electromagnetic effects that cause the skin effect would still disrupt conduction. The bundle is constructed so the individual strands are on the outside of the bundle (and see low resistance) for a time, but also reside in the interior of the bundle (where the EM field changes are the strongest and the resistance is higher).*_

 Much of the wire offered as "litz wire," including that from Cardas, doesn't meet this criteria, which is really the raison d'etre of litz wire, i.e. to address skin effect.

 The Cardas "litz" wire is what's called "Type 1" litz. Which is just individually insulated wires simply twisted together like a typical stranded wire.







 Type 1 litz doesn't address skin effect because the individual strands retain the radial position in the bundle from end to end. Current density increases in the outside strands and decreases in the inside strands, no differently than is the case with a solid wire of the same cross-section.

 To address skin effect, you need to use a Type 2 construction.






 Type 2 litz uses a number of bundles of twisted strands which are then further twisted together.

 In this arrangement, each strand more or less occupies every radial position along the length of the wire and current density is more or less equal in every strand, ameliorating losses due to skin effect.

 If anyone would like to experiment with Type 2 litz, Surplus Sales of Nebraska sells an approximately 28 gauge litz (40 strands of 44 gauge wire) for just 30 cents a foot (though they have a $10 minimum order).

 k


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Koyaan I. Sqatsi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just a couple of comments about litz wire.

 The Wikipedia article is a good one, but one portion of it deserves to be emphasized:

Litz wire uses some different tricks. Instead of using one big conductor, it uses lots of little conductors (strands) in parallel (forming a bundle). Each little conductor is less than a skin-depth, so an individual strand does not suffer an appreciable skin effect loss. However, that is not the complete story. The strands must be insulated from each other -- otherwise all the wires in the bundle would short together, look like a single large wire, and still have skin effect problems. *Furthermore, the strands cannot occupy the same radial position in the bundle: the electromagnetic effects that cause the skin effect would still disrupt conduction. The bundle is constructed so the individual strands are on the outside of the bundle (and see low resistance) for a time, but also reside in the interior of the bundle (where the EM field changes are the strongest and the resistance is higher).*

 Much of the wire offered as "litz wire," including that from Cardas, doesn't meet this criteria, which is really the raison d'etre of litz wire, i.e. to address skin effect.

 The Cardas "litz" wire is what's called "Type 1" litz. Which is just individually insulated wires simply twisted together like a typical stranded wire.






 Type 1 litz doesn't address skin effect because the individual strands retain the radial position in the bundle from end to end. Current density increases in the outside strands and decreases in the inside strands, no differently than is the case with a solid wire of the same cross-section.

 To address skin effect, you need to use a Type 2 construction.






 Type 2 litz uses a number of bundles of twisted strands which are then further twisted together.

 In this arrangement, each strand more or less occupies every radial position along the length of the wire and current density is more or less equal in every strand, ameliorating losses due to skin effect.

 If anyone would like to experiment with Type 2 litz, Surplus Sales of Nebraska sells an approximately 28 gauge litz (40 strands of 44 gauge wire) for just 30 cents a foot (though they have a $10 minimum order).

 k_

 

Very interesting. Check your second pic, I think you have the wrong one there.

 .


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Very interesting. Check your second pic, I think you have the wrong one there.._

 

Wrong one? What wrong one? Looks ok to me. Maybe you need to get your eyes checked. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Thanks for catching that. It's been fixed. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 k


----------



## IPodPJ

I remember when I owned the Sony CD1000. Both the CD1K and CD3K used a Litz wire.


----------



## squall343

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bob Jones* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks to haloxt who was kind enough to send me a signal cable,I got to try the amp.It STILL doesn't work.Tried all combinations to no avail.So all this effort by everybody to solve this problem brings me to this point.Time for Kingwa to step up to the plate and ship another unit immediately.I've done enough and WAITED LONG ENOUGH.Nothing left to do,but say thanks for the help and support._

 

I think the right thing now kingwa to do now

 is to ship a new unit asap and maybe some compensation for the time wasted


----------



## punk_guy182

-How many faulty units are out there?
 I recall reading that there were some issues with Bob Jones unit and IPodPJ's.

 -How much of a SQ increase would be the replacement of wires?
 Has Kingwa considered switching wires inside the Phoenix for the Litz one?


----------



## haloxt

Bob Jones' is the only one not working. Mine wasn't working because I damaged the serial cable. I think Bob Jones should try to use another amp and see if that one plays just to be safe 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I would be very disappointed if it's not really the Phoenix being faulty and audio-gd has to pay for all that shipping.


----------



## Bob Jones

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *squall343* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think the right thing now kingwa to do now

 is to ship a new unit asap and maybe some compensation for the time wasted 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Well,this is how it ended up.Kingwa would not send another unit until he got this one back first.Went back and forth a few times and decided to send the amp back and get a refund.End of story?Not quite,Kingwa wants me to ship the amp to a fellow head-fi member.And he will ship another Phoenix immediately,and I accepted his offer.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *punk_guy182* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_-How many faulty units are out there?
 I recall reading that there were some issues with Bob Jones unit and IPodPJ's.

 -How much of a SQ increase would be the replacement of wires?
 Has Kingwa considered switching wires inside the Phoenix for the Litz one?_

 

Mine works fine.

 And no, Kingwa will not switch them out for the base model.
 But perhaps you can pay him extra for the wire (or send him the wire)
 and then he will do it for you.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bob Jones* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well,this is how it ended up.Kingwa would not send another unit until he got this one back first.Went back and forth a few times and decided to send the amp back and get a refund.End of story?Not quite,Kingwa wants me to ship the amp to a fellow head-fi member.And he will ship another Phoenix immediately,and I accepted his offer._

 

I think that's a wise choice on both of your parts. You will get a great amp and he wants to find out from another member which chassis is the faulty one so that only one piece needs to be shipped to and fro.


----------



## boomana

Bob Jones, which member is going to get your amp?


----------



## Bob Jones

First it needs to be fixed then I don't know,but I bet it will be a heck of a deal.
 To haloxt,I used a cd player output to headphones worked fine then rca to amp no luck.
 Man,everything was tried and I think it's a small problem but on the inside.


----------



## The Monkey

Kingwa should make Bob's old amp a demo amp that he sends around to prospective purchasers.


----------



## sandchak

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *The Monkey* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Kingwa should make Bob's old amp a demo amp that he sends around to prospective purchasers._

 

It isn't a bad idea at all and I really support that, I would also (personally) consider that as a very good business move. In fact I think it was with Compass that I suggested him to do something like this - and (if I am not mistaken) its happened here in Head-fi before when a manufacturer has passed around gear for demo purposes (not sure it was something as heavy as Phoenix, but mostly headphones). Although I will surely be out of range as I am too far from the US of A...


----------



## punk_guy182

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 And no, Kingwa will not switch them out for the base model.
 But perhaps you can pay him extra for the wire (or send him the wire)
 and then he will do it for you._

 

How much will SQ improve?
 What's the best Litz wire so far?
 Is the mod worth it regarding the price of the wire?


----------



## boomana

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bob Jones* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_First it needs to be fixed then I don't know,but I bet it will be a heck of a deal._

 

I'm glad you're getting a new amp, but who is fixing the amp if you're not sending it back to Kingwa?


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *punk_guy182* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How much will SQ improve?_

 

How would I know? This is only what I've been told.

  Quote:


 What's the best Litz wire so far? 
 

How would I know? The Cardas single litz is only what I've been told. And Kyle suggested using Audio Consulting wire which is what he uses on all his mods.

  Quote:


 Is the mod worth it regarding the price of the wire? 
 

How would I know? I've never heard it. But since the labor is very cheap, I would say it's worth trying since the DIYer who did it says the sound quality is greatly improved. The Phoenix is already so good, but if there is a way to increase detail and bass impact even more, I'm all for it.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How would I know? This is only what I've been told.



 How would I know? The Cardas single litz is only what I've been told. And Kyle suggested using Audio Consulting wire which is what he uses on all his mods.



 How would I know? I've never heard it. But since the labor is very cheap, I would say it's worth trying since the DIYer who did it says the sound quality is greatly improved. The Phoenix is already so good, but if there is a way to increase detail and bass impact even more, I'm all for it._

 

Could you say, "How would I know' one more time!

 I'm getting excited!

 .


----------



## Lil' Knight

The Cardas litz wire is pretty cheap, ~1$/ft I think.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Lil' Knight* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The Cardas litz wire is pretty cheap, ~1$/ft I think._

 

I'll have Kyle order some before myself, Gary and Doug go down there to get the mods done in about 3 weeks.


----------



## boomana

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'll have Kyle order some before myself, Gary and Doug go down there to get the mods done in about 3 weeks._

 

Are all three of you getting the mods?


----------



## moonboy403

I'm considering it. It'll come down the the price of the mod which I'm asking PJ via pm. 

 On the other hand, since I'm gonna get a K1000, I'm considering giving up the Phoenix so I can get the Audio Note Kit 1 which sounds superb with the K1000.


----------



## Lil' Knight

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'll have Kyle order some before myself, Gary and Doug go down there to get the mods done in about 3 weeks._

 

I hope you'll notice some improvements.


----------



## ServinginEcuador

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *boomana* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Are all three of you getting the mods?_

 

I'm having Kyle mod my CI Audio VDC 9 power supply, add a SuperClock to my Wadia iTransport, and possibly some rewire work on the Phoenix/Ref 1. Since I'll be using CAST only inputs my rewire job might be quite smaller than the rest.


----------



## ServinginEcuador

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Lil' Knight* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I hope you'll notice some improvements._

 

We can also A/B either Gary's or Phil's against mine if we do the mods at different times.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *moonboy403* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm considering it. It'll come down the the price of the mod which I'm asking PJ via pm. 

 On the other hand, since I'm gonna get a K1000, I'm considering giving up the Phoenix so I can get the Audio Note Kit 1 which sounds superb with the K1000._

 

You feel the K1000 are better than the HD800? Have you compared them side by side?


----------



## moonboy403

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You feel the K1000 are better than the HD800? Have you compared them side by side?_

 

Nope, I haven't compared them side by side. However, for what I value most(holographic soundstage), no headphone can compare to the K1000. It doesn't matter how holographic the soundstage R10, HD800, and W5000 put out, they just don't compare to the K1000.


----------



## tim3320070

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *punk_guy182* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How much will SQ improve?
 What's the best Litz wire so far?
 Is the mod worth it regarding the price of the wire?_

 

Kingwa's response to your (and my) question:
 "Dear Tim,
 The Cadas cable is one Hongkong people tell Philip said this cable is good but I don't think.
 We use the neutral cable in Phoenix, and can suit most users but if some one has himself personal taste, then he will replace the other cable, but then the sounding not our design , it only for some one.
 Kingwa"


----------



## punk_guy182

I didn't completely understand what he said.
 Did someone understand Kingwa's message more than I did?


----------



## moonboy403

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *punk_guy182* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I didn't completely understand what he said.
 Did someone understand Kingwa's message more than I did?_

 

I would guess Kingwa's implying that the Cardas has a flavor of its own but isn't a neutral one which is what he strives for. Moreover, that person who suggested using Cardas liked what he hears because he likes the Cardas flavored/colored sounded.


----------



## punk_guy182

Oh okay then!
 So there is no SQ improvement. All you get is some sort of flavor no matter if you use Litz cable type 1 or type 2.

 In that case, I'll stick with neutrality and the way the Phoenix was meant to sound.


----------



## IPodPJ

Eric sent me another message and says he does not want anyone to feel that Kingwa is not using good cable. He also says there will be no sound improvement on CAST from rewiring it and certainly not to touch the wire on the inputs of the Ref-1 DAC.


----------



## boomana

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Eric sent me another message and says he does not want anyone to feel that Kingwa is not using good cable. He also says there will be no sound improvement on CAST from rewiring it and certainly not to touch the wire on the inputs of the Ref-1 DAC._

 

Who is Eric? I'm getting confused.

 Anyway, if someone gets the mods, it would be nice to do as ServinginEcuador suggested.


----------



## punk_guy182

Are you talking about Eric from France?
 His english is not very good. There could have been some bad communication going on.
 I'm a frenchie too. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 How can I contact him to find out what his thoughts are on the issue?


----------



## sandchak

I think its the guy from Hong Kong that uses A-GD stuffs.. (only increases the chances of miscommunication.. although I am sure PJ understood correctly) One of his communication with PJ is posted on Page 111 and he clearly seems to say Cardas cables (in/output lead) seems to have brought out the best in A-GD gears and he suggests PJ to try the same with Phoenix - no mention about CAST though.


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *punk_guy182* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Oh okay then!
 So there is no SQ improvement. All you get is some sort of flavor no matter if you use Litz cable type 1 or type 2.

 In that case, I'll stick with neutrality and the way the Phoenix was meant to sound._

 

Ultimately, it's _all_ "flavor." From the making of the instruments, to the performance, to the recording, to the recording's mixing and mastering, and so on down the line.

 k


----------



## IPodPJ

Vicki, his name is Eric and he's from the Audio-gd forums. He's from China.

 As far as the Reference One DAC goes, Kingwa is going to put the Cardas wire on the RCA and XLR outputs for me, but I have asked him not to change the wire on the coax inputs or CAST outputs.


----------



## Currawong

The idea of a loaner Phoenix is a good one IMO.


----------



## XXII

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The idea of a loaner Phoenix is a good one IMO._

 

I would be very very interested in this. Perhaps it could make a stop in Hong Kong on the way to the US or wherever. I could compare it with my GS-X and my newly arrived balanced Beta22.


----------



## moonboy403

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The idea of a loaner Phoenix is a good one IMO._

 

It's a good idea, but at the same time, I don't think shipping 50lbs of amp around continuously is a good idea either.


----------



## The Monkey

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *moonboy403* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It's a good idea, but at the same time, I don't think shipping 50lbs of amp around continuously is a good idea either._

 

Details, details...


----------



## Yikes

How many people will want to borrow one when they have to provide shipping and a valid C/C that would be preauthorized for the entire amount (Security). 

 Not to mention that Audio-gd is not set up for taking C/C's so the logistics would be a nightmare. 

 There's probably already enough out in the field in the US that they should be showing up at most meets.


----------



## IPodPJ

Well, L.A. is certainly covered.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Yikes do you know anything about Mundorf Silver/Gold (24 awg at 4.95/ft) hook up wire ? I can get it locally as well as Duelund Silver Foil Silk-Oil (18 awg at 9.995/ft is the smallest unfortunately) and Jupiter 5N solid silver (23 awg at 5.95/ft) in unwaxed/unbleached cotton tubing from partsconexxion.

 I already have soft annealed solid core 5N silver (+ Teflon tubing) in 22,20 and 18 awg sizes so the other wire pcx offers in 5N silver wire is likely no better than what I have on hand although I can order the cotton tubing from pcx to use it instead of the Teflon stuff. I'm leaning towards the silver foil/silk oil stuff since it represents pcx's highest recommendation when used as hook up wire but I also like the idea of just getting some cotton tubing for the wire I already have. The wild card is the silver foil and the Mundorf silver/gold (1%)....I can't make up my mind ...

 Anyone else had experience with either of these in their dac/cdp or T/preamp/amp in analog and digital usage ? 

 Peete.


----------



## Yikes

I can't say anything about the Mundorf wire, except to say that you probably get what you pay for.


----------



## moonboy403

I'm officially giving up the Phoenix as I would like to max out the potential of the K1000, but the Phoenix is one fine headphone amp.

 This is all thanks to Donald North bringing over his K1000 and Audio Note Kit 1 to my place on the weekend.


----------



## IPodPJ

I'm sure you'll find a ready buyer to take it off your hands for you for exactly what you paid for it including what you paid for shipping.

 I still owe you a reprimand for scuffing my balanced cable.


----------



## moonboy403

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm sure you'll find a ready buyer to take it off your hands for you for exactly what you paid for it including what you paid for shipping.

 I still owe you a reprimand for scuffing my balanced cable. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I'm really sorry for that. Plugging in wasn't a problem but pulling it out was.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *moonboy403* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm really sorry for that. Plugging in wasn't a problem but pulling it out was. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I'm just messing with you. That part is hidden anyway when plugged in. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It's a poor design on Furutech's part. "Let's put a hexagon inside a circle!" Dumb. What were they thinking?


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I can't say anything about the Mundorf wire, except to say that you probably get what you pay for. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I think I'll just sit back and coast for a few months......see what develops.

 Peete.


----------



## punk_guy182

So who is getting their Audio-GD gear rewired with some Litz cable?
 I'm starting to wonder if it is a worthy upgrade.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *punk_guy182* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So who is getting their Audio-GD gear rewired with some Litz cable?
 I'm starting to wonder if it is a worthy upgrade._

 

Kingwa is installng the Cardas Litz wire for me on the RCA and XLR outputs of my Reference One. I am leaving the coax inputs and CAST outputs alone.


----------



## punk_guy182

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Kingwa is installng the Cardas Litz wire for me on the RCA and XLR outputs of my Reference One. I am leaving the coax inputs and CAST outputs alone._

 

So that is the Type 1 Litz wire? If so it is not the best one.
 Which is best?


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *punk_guy182* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So that is the Type 1 Litz wire? If so it is not the best one.
 Which is best?_

 

Depends how you define "best."

 If you're only talking in terms of skin effect, then a Type 2 litz would be better. But if you're talking about sound quality, well, then it's every man for himself. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 k


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *punk_guy182* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So that is the Type 1 Litz wire? If so it is not the best one.
 Which is best?_

 

I have no idea which one it is. It is whichever Eric sent to him.

 Why would you say, "If so it is not the best one. Which one is best?" That makes no sense. Either you know or you don't.


----------



## punk_guy182

Cardas wire is the type 1 which doesn't adress skin effect very well. Someone posted earlier about a manufacturer that does type 2 Litz wire that addresses skin effect properly.


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *punk_guy182* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Cardas wire is the type 1 which doesn't adress skin effect very well._

 

Yes. Though that presupposes that skin effect is a problem in the first place. I was simply pointing out that if it is, then a Type 1 litz won't address it the way a Type 2 litz will. 

 Ultimately how a thing sounds is more important than whether or not some purely technical issue is addressed or not so don't take my post as implying that with regard to sound, the "best" solution is necessarily Type 2 litz. Because so much of this is subjective, one should try things for themselves and decide for themselves what works best for them. 

  Quote:


 Someone posted earlier about a manufacturer that does type 2 Litz wire that addresses skin effect properly. 
 

That was me.

 Though it wasn't a manufacturer. They're a surplus store. The Type 2 litz wire I referred to was made by Kerrigan-Lewis, which is no longer in business. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 k


----------



## tosehee

By the way, was a formal review of the phoenix in the past? I can't seem to locate that..

 This thread basically serves that purpose, but I wanted to read some more professionally done review with comparison to other top amps.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

No one has done a formal review yet since the amp only started shipping recently.....most likely in a month or two when the amps have been in service for a decent amount of time and all have been fully burned in.

 PJ's mini Mega meet thread impressions are a good read for some insight.

 Peete.


----------



## IPodPJ

Once I get the Reference One DAC I will be able to hear more of its abilities. I am pretty sure the amp is designed to sound its best with CAST inputs.

 But as of now it's a toss up between the Phoenix and Balanced B22 for best solid state headphone amp.


----------



## atothex

Has anyone compared the Phoenix to a Dynamite? Or even a GSX for that matter? Luxman P1?


----------



## moonboy403

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *atothex* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Has anyone compared the Phoenix to a Dynamite? Or even a GSX for that matter? Luxman P1?_

 

No, no, and no. Give it a month or two.


----------



## atothex

Hope one shows up at the Norcal meet. Then we'll really see what's up. As best I can tell, most peeps say it's a bit worse than the B22, which imo isn't really saying much.


----------



## moonboy403

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *atothex* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hope one shows up at the Norcal meet. Then we'll really see what's up._

 

Well, I was supposed to bring mine. However, given that I couldn't find a ride there and adding to the fact that I'm "remodeling" my rig from top to bottom, so even if I can make it there, I'll be bringing a completely different rig.


----------



## atothex

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *moonboy403* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well, I was supposed to bring mine. However, given that I couldn't find a ride there and adding to the fact that I'm "remodeling" my rig from top to bottom, so even if I can make it there, I'll be bringing a completely different rig. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Haha what a dork. Well, good luck with that. Hope to see ya there with some goodies.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *atothex* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Haha what a dork. Well, good luck with that._

 

Real nice.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *atothex* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hope one shows up at the Norcal meet. Then we'll really see what's up. As best I can tell, most peeps say it's a bit worse than the B22, which imo isn't really saying much._

 

Well you're full of nice comments tonight. No one said it's a bit worse, just that they preferred the dynamics and detail more with the B22. The B22 and Phoenix are neutral amps, so if neutral isn't your cup of tea than look elsewhere. Having a colored system gets old after awhile but if that's what you prefer then it's your choice.

 And why would you say, "Hope one shows up at the Norcal meet. Then we'll really see what's up." ? Is that supposed to mean that the people at the L.A. meet are clueless and only you are capable of knowing how good it is?


----------



## Yikes

PJ, Could you be any more defensive? You're acting as if you own freakin stock in Audio-gd. (I know that you don't so there's no need for you to come back all defensive about that either).

 We get it, you LOVE your Phoenix. You don't have to respond to every single post that might be perceived as even remotely negative.


----------



## dallan

When I read the posts I just thought the guy/girl had PMS or maybe his/her wife did.


----------



## gjkphd

Looks like the permanent price is now listed at $1200


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_PJ, Could you be any more defensive? You're acting as if you own freakin stock in Audio-gd. (I know that you don't so there's no need for you to come back all defensive about that either).

 We get it, you LOVE your Phoenix. You don't have to respond to every single post that might be perceived as even remotely negative._

 

I haven't and I don't care if someone doesn't like it. That's their choice. You missed the entire point of the post. I have a problem with someone making rude comments to others, something that you're quite familiar with yourself. And I have a problem with someone invalidating others impressions, something you're also quite familiar with.


----------



## scootermafia

Using Litz wire is silly for this. Why you'd want to lose your sanity attempting to strip this Cardas litz wire that's not even OCC copper... I'd go with Mundorf, it's going to be the very best. I've listened to it extensively and it is special stuff. If you buy it from Banzai-Effects in Germany it's only about $3 per shipped foot. The Duelund foil is too rich for my blood.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *scootermafia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Using Litz wire is silly for this. Why you'd want to lose your sanity attempting to strip this Cardas litz wire that's not even OCC copper... I'd go with Mundorf, it's going to be the very best. I've listened to it extensively and it is special stuff. If you buy it from Banzai-Effects in Germany it's only about $3 per shipped foot. The Duelund foil is too rich for my blood._

 

Well, I personally wouldn't want to do it but since it was recommended to me and since Kingwa did it for no extra charge, might as well go for it. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I can always have it rewired with something else in the future. How much is the Duelund you are talking about?


----------



## atothex

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have a problem with someone making rude comments to others_

 

Please grow a sense of humor.


----------



## Pyriel0

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_But as of now it's a toss up between the Phoenix and Balanced B22 for best solid state headphone amp._

 

You expect not to catch some **** with statements like that?


----------



## haloxt

It pains me to see this kind of orc-speak. I recommend you guys read these books and learn civil discourse from philologist JRR Tolkien.

Amazon.com: J.R.R. Tolkien Boxed Set (The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings) (9780345340429): J.R.R. Tolkien: Books


----------



## Audio-Omega

Is the sound quality of Audio-GD Roc similar to Phoenix in unbalanced mode ?


----------



## scootermafia

Duelund is $10 per foot for the "base" model, $17 for the one with double silk, and in the 20s for the higher gauge variety per foot. It'd probably cost nearly what your amp cost to rewire it. Neotech OCC silver is a better deal at $5/ft. The whole silver foil thing creeps me out, I need to order some to see how it handles, it's questionable how it would braid or twist together...in my mind I'm visualizing tin foil although I'm sure it's way thicker than that, it's just a flat rectangular shaped wire...

 Cryoparts TWCu wire, now that's a wire we can be proud of...I love that stuff for everything.


----------



## Yikes

After yesterdays NJ. meet I formed some additional opinions about the Phoenix vs a couple of other amps and how they mate with a certain headphone.

 The Phoenix drives my Denon AH-D7000 (Siltech Balanced Recable) very well. The only amp that I clearly preferred to the Phoenix with my Denon's was the Single Ended Woo Audio WA5 (Totally Maxed about $4300). The maxed WA5 is my favorite dynamic Amp, bar none.

 My only real listening objective at the meet was to get some time with the much heralded Sennheiser HD-800. The HD-800's underwhelmed me, especially on the Phoenix. Driven by the Phoenix they were sort of flat sounding, they lacked dynamic contrast. On a Balanced M3 the 800 were a little better, but still only OK. On a B52 the 800's sounded much better, although still not a revelation.

 I'm ambivalent about how poorly the HD-800's mated to my Phoenix. On the one hand I was hoping that they lived up to the hype and were a modern day masterpiece. $1400 for something as good as the R10 or maybe HE90's would be justified, and I'd jump at such a phone. However to these ears the HD-800's don't even come close to living up to the hype, so I am quite happy to save $1400.


----------



## tosehee

Interesting feedback on the HD800 mated with Phoenix.

 Since you liked the D7000 with Phoenix, I am wondering if there is some synergistic issue with HD800 with Phoenix, or HD800 just not your type.

 I still need to wait at least 2 to 3 more weeks to form my own impression. Until then, I wonder how others with similar setup perceives the sq.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_After yesterdays NJ. meet I formed some additional opinions about the Phoenix vs a couple of other amps and how they mate with a certain headphone.

 The Phoenix drives my Denon AH-D7000 (Siltech Balanced Recable) very well. The only amp that I clearly preferred to the Phoenix with my Denon's was the Single Ended Woo Audio WA5 (Totally Maxed about $4300). The maxed WA5 is my favorite dynamic Amp, bar none.

 My only real listening objective at the meet was to get some time with the much heralded Sennheiser HD-800. The HD-800's underwhelmed me, especially on the Phoenix. Driven by the Phoenix they were sort of flat sounding, they lacked dynamic contrast. On a Balanced M3 the 800 were a little better, but still only OK. On a B52 the 800's sounded much better, although still not a revelation.

 I'm ambivalent about how poorly the HD-800's mated to my Phoenix. On the one hand I was hoping that they lived up to the hype and were a modern day masterpiece. $1400 for something as good as the R10 or maybe HE90's would be justified, and I'd jump at such a phone. However to these ears the HD-800's don't even come close to living up to the hype, so I am quite happy to save $1400._


----------



## johnwmclean

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_After yesterdays NJ. meet I formed some additional opinions about the Phoenix vs a couple of other amps and how they mate with a certain headphone.

 The Phoenix drives my Denon AH-D7000 (Siltech Balanced Recable) very well. The only amp that I clearly preferred to the Phoenix with my Denon's was the Single Ended Woo Audio WA5 (Totally Maxed about $4300). The maxed WA5 is my favorite dynamic Amp, bar none.

 My only real listening objective at the meet was to get some time with the much heralded Sennheiser HD-800. The HD-800's underwhelmed me, especially on the Phoenix. Driven by the Phoenix they were sort of flat sounding, they lacked dynamic contrast. On a Balanced M3 the 800 were a little better, but still only OK. On a B52 the 800's sounded much better, although still not a revelation.

 I'm ambivalent about how poorly the HD-800's mated to my Phoenix. On the one hand I was hoping that they lived up to the hype and were a modern day masterpiece. $1400 for something as good as the R10 or maybe HE90's would be justified, and I'd jump at such a phone. However to these ears the HD-800's don't even come close to living up to the hype, so I am quite happy to save $1400._

 

The 800's don't really have that WOW factor thing going for them. They can be easily dismissed by this interpretation of first impressions. Take them home and listen to them for month, then try listening to anything else.


----------



## Currawong

If you're used to Denons, then anything without that full-bodied tonal balance sound thin and boring. I had to condition myself off that otherwise I would have felt the same about the HD-800s.


----------



## soundlogic

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_After yesterdays NJ. meet I formed some additional opinions about the Phoenix vs a couple of other amps and how they mate with a certain headphone.

 The Phoenix drives my Denon AH-D7000 (Siltech Balanced Recable) very well. The only amp that I clearly preferred to the Phoenix with my Denon's was the Single Ended Woo Audio WA5 (Totally Maxed about $4300). The maxed WA5 is my favorite dynamic Amp, bar none.

 My only real listening objective at the meet was to get some time with the much heralded Sennheiser HD-800. The HD-800's underwhelmed me, especially on the Phoenix. Driven by the Phoenix they were sort of flat sounding, they lacked dynamic contrast. On a Balanced M3 the 800 were a little better, but still only OK. On a B52 the 800's sounded much better, although still not a revelation.

 I'm ambivalent about how poorly the HD-800's mated to my Phoenix. On the one hand I was hoping that they lived up to the hype and were a modern day masterpiece. $1400 for something as good as the R10 or maybe HE90's would be justified, and I'd jump at such a phone. However to these ears the HD-800's don't even come close to living up to the hype, so I am quite happy to save $1400._

 

I know I am setting myself up for the rath-of-iPodJ, but here it goes...
 I actually attended the L.A. Mini-meet in the beginning of the month for exactly the same reason. I was able to hear the HD-800's with a number of amps, balanced and single-ended, and I cannot agree with you more! I WANTED to LOVE the HD-800's, but at the end of the day, I wondered what all the whoopla was about? I wondered later if the pairing of the 800's and the Phoenix are just TOO MUCH neutrality? When I listened to HD-800's on the Zana Duex single ended, I heard dynamics that I did not here on the Phoenix. I want to get the Phoenix, along with the Ref-1, but will be pairing them with the Denon AHD-7000's that are breaking in as I type this...This set-up will allow me to avoid "wetting my pants".
 Yikes, either our ears are screwed up, or we have different expectations regarding musical reproduction.


----------



## sachu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Once I get the Reference One DAC I will be able to hear more of its abilities. I am pretty sure the amp is designed to sound its best with CAST inputs.

 But as of now it's a toss up between the Phoenix and Balanced B22 for best solid state headphone amp._

 

Well don't you think the phoenix and the Ref1 will sound their best when used with the Audio-GD power cord, the Audio-gd CAST connectors, and the Audio-gd power conditioner. Afterall Kingwa designed them all together and they sound the best when used together 'am sure'. Oh wait..perhaps we have to wait for the audio-gd headphone to be released for the phoenix and ref1 to be able to perform at 100%. Or perhaps they need to be burned in till the end of time before they really start to open up 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ And I have a problem with someone invalidating others impressions, something you're also quite familiar with._

 

Oh you mean like you invalidating mine as you did here  Quoting you  Quote:


 "Some people just like the sound of cheap sources. 

 I'm sure your processor does not have better highs, I'm sure it has louder highs that are accentuated and flavored to your liking." 
 

Grow up.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Peete.


----------



## ecclesand

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_





 Peete._

 

That was certainly helpful. Have you been waiting all day to use that one?


----------



## soundlogic

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If you're used to Denons, then anything without that full-bodied tonal balance sound thin and boring. I had to condition myself off that otherwise I would have felt the same about the HD-800s._

 

Are my priorities backwards?
 If I attended a live musical performance and did not experience "full bodied tonal balance"...I would feel like something is wrong. When I set-up my 2 channel home system...full-bodied tonal balance is exactly what I strived for...over and above pinpoint holographic imaging...which is nearly impossible to attain in most non-dedicated rooms, and/or without much acoustic treatment


----------



## Currawong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *soundlogic* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Are my priorities backwards?
 If I attended a live musical performance and did not experience "full bodied tonal balance"...I would feel like something is wrong. When I set-up my 2 channel home system...full-bodied tonal balance is exactly what I strived for...over and above pinpoint holographic imaging...which is nearly impossible to attain in most non-dedicated rooms, and/or without much acoustic treatment_

 

Denons have a lot of mid-bass. Getting used to this results in other headphones sounding thin in comparison. Nothing to do with live performances, only to do with headphones and what your brain gets used to. You'll see the inverse of this when people talk of trying Denons for the first time and say that they sound bloated.


----------



## soundlogic

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Denons have a lot of mid-bass. Getting used to this results in other headphones sounding thin in comparison. Nothing to do with live performances, only to do with headphones and what your brain gets used to. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

The Senns. 650's have ALOT of mid-bass. These 7000's sound NOTHING like the 650's! Just IMHO


----------



## dallan

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *soundlogic* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_When I listened to HD-800's on the Zana Duex single ended, I heard dynamics that I did not here on the Phoenix. regarding musical reproduction._

 

Thank you!


----------



## Yikes

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *johnwmclean* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The 800's don't really have that WOW factor thing going for them. They can be easily dismissed by this interpretation of first impressions. Take them home and listen to them for month, then try listening to anything else._

 

 That's just silly. You're saying that if I dislike it I'm suppose to go make myself listen to something that I dislike for a month and magically I won't be able to live without them. That's possibly one of the silliest statements I've read on this forum. No one mentioned that either of the HD-800's that I listened to were not broken in, so I'm fairly sure that they're not going to change. I've been in to Audio for 30 years, it's my business. I know what I like and I can determine if a product shows promise for me very quickly. I now know that with my amp the 800's just don't do it for me.


 I get that you like your 800's, but you need to learn that everyone doesn't share your tastes. Your suggestion that if you've heard the 800's and didn't like them a person should still buy a pair because in a month their tastes will change is terrible. 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If you're used to Denons, then anything without that full-bodied tonal balance sound thin and boring. I had to condition myself off that otherwise I would have felt the same about the HD-800s._

 

 I have news for you; The Denon's are only a couple of weeks old, I am not "Used" to them. The headphones that I am most used to are my Jades and K-701's. The Denon's are a new flavor for me, sort of an experiment. I have high hopes for them. What I can say is that I prefer the denon's brand new to the 800's broken in.


 Just like the 600 and 650's before them the 800's are just not my cup of Tea, and I'm sure that I am not alone.


----------



## tim3320070

Yikes,
 Do you have a comparison of SE vs balanced with the D7000/ Phoenix or were they balanced before getting the Phoenix? Did soundstage increase balanced?
 Impressions please.
 Thanks


----------



## lmswjm

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ Just like the 600 and 650's before them the 800's are just not my cup of Tea, and I'm sure that I am not alone._

 

X2


----------



## Currawong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have news for you; The Denon's are only a couple of weeks old, I am not "Used" to them. The headphones that I am most used to are my Jades and K-701's. The Denon's are a new flavor for me, sort of an experiment. I have high hopes for them. What I can say is that I prefer the denon's brand new to the 800's broken in.

 Just like the 600 and 650's before them the 800's are just not my cup of Tea, and I'm sure that I am not alone._

 

Not disagreeing with you, just posting for the sake of discussion. I had K701s, then switched to Denon MD5000s, and was unable to go back to the K701s at all. I'm wondering if a similar thing would happen if I bought D7000s now. At present I'm impatient for my HF-2s to arrive, as I want the punch and more up-front presentation of the HF-1s I tried recently.


----------



## sandchak

Well, it seems like ROC is up for sale.. and I think Kingwa has addressed one of the needs for better heat dissipation.. Sorry for the OT (this is still a Phoenix thread)

ÐÂ½¨ÍøÒ³ 1


----------



## soundlogic

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sandchak* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well, it seems like ROC is up for sale.. and I think Kingwa has addressed one of the needs for better heat dissipation.. Sorry for the OT (this is still a Phoenix thread)

ÐÂ½¨ÍøÒ³ 1




_

 

I could not find the dimensions of the Roc on the website. Maybe I scanned through too quickly. BUT...if the dimensions are the same as the Phoenix, could the lid be used on the Phoenix? I know that it has been said numerous times that the Phoenix has been designed to run at the present heat out put, and that much, if not all of the Audio-gd gear run quite hot as well. I wonder why now that the Roc has a vented top? Kingwa?


----------



## Pricklely Peete

The simple explanation is, the ROC has both the PSU and amp board under one lid.

 It's a compromise. 

 Peete.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *soundlogic* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I could not find the dimensions of the Roc on the website. Maybe I scanned through too quickly. BUT...if the dimensions are the same as the Phoenix, could the lid be used on the Phoenix? I know that it has been said numerous times that the Phoenix has been designed to run at the present heat out put, and that much, if not all of the Audio-gd gear run quite hot as well. I wonder why now that the Roc has a vented top? Kingwa?_

 

I did tests with the lid off the Phoenix, made little difference, about 1-2 degrees. The real question is, does the Phoenix need help? The designer says NO.

 The only way to help the Phoenix would be to have extrusions on the Belly or the sides. That is where the heat is concentrated. There is not much "heat soak" that gets to the top plate.

 The only part of the Phoenix that benefits from having the top off is to the convective heat sinks in the middle of the PSU. They do drop in temp with the lid off. They drop like 10-12 degrees or so. The chassis sides and top don't change much.

 .


----------



## soundlogic

Peete, Les;
 Thanks for the clarification-of-the-explanation. Both makes sense...Although, at first I could not help but think that the Roc's lid was "product evolution", based on user comments and concerns.


----------



## IPodPJ

I wouldn't mind having that lid on the PSU for the Phoenix. It gets burning hot.


----------



## johnwmclean

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's just silly. You're saying that if I dislike it I'm suppose to go make myself listen to something that I dislike for a month and magically I won't be able to live without them. That's possibly one of the silliest statements I've read on this forum. No one mentioned that either of the HD-800's that I listened to were not broken in, so I'm fairly sure that they're not going to change. I've been in to Audio for 30 years, it's my business. I know what I like and I can determine if a product shows promise for me very quickly. I now know that with my amp the 800's just don't do it for me.


 I get that you like your 800's, but you need to learn that everyone doesn't share your tastes. Your suggestion that if you've heard the 800's and didn't like them a person should still buy a pair because in a month their tastes will change is terrible._

 

Yikes, you've taken my quote way out of context, lay off the angy pills mate. I never presumed my statement to be a stab at your 30 year audio history, I also never suggested to buy them even if you didn't like them. They are your words not mine. Please read my post again, you clearly have trouble with comprehension. By the way just checking out some your previous posts, surely you wear the crown much better than I do for the sillest posts on head-fi.


----------



## Covenant

You tell them John!


----------



## Currawong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I wouldn't mind having that lid on the PSU for the Phoenix. It gets burning hot._

 

It would make zero difference as there would be no corresponding holes on the underside of the Phoenix to cause air to flow.

 The trick, if you're worried about the heat is, get a 12V 120mm computer case fan, screw a grill to it either side, and connect it by whatever means to a USB power cable (used for some portable HDs and the like). It'll spin slowly and quietly from the 5V USB power and, sitting next to the Phoenix, cool it better than doing so suggests.


----------



## Bob Jones

Got my Phoenix yesterday,functions beautifully.Thanks for all the help along the way.Over all I'm very pleased with the final outcome and feel Kingwa really came through for me.It was a long journey that I'm happy to put behind me. I never figured out why I couldn't get the first Phoenix to function.Turns out it worked right out of the box at it's next stop.
 But it's all about the music now.


----------



## moonboy403

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bob Jones* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Got my Phoenix yesterday,functions beautifully.Thanks for all the help along the way.Over all I'm very pleased with the final outcome and feel Kingwa really came through for me.It was a long journey that I'm happy to put behind me. I never figured out why I couldn't get the first Phoenix to function.Turns out it worked right out of the box at it's next stop.
 But it's all about the music now._

 

Congrats on the working amp! Now treat yourself to some beautifully amped music that you've been craving and missing all this time!


----------



## Bob Jones

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *moonboy403* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Congrats on the working amp! Now treat yourself to some beautifully amped music that you've been craving and missing all this time! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Amen brother


----------



## Yikes

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *johnwmclean* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yikes, you've taken my quote way out of context, lay off the angy pills mate. I never presumed my statement to be a stab at your 30 year audio history, I also never suggested to buy them even if you didn't like them. They are your words not mine. Please read my post again, you clearly have trouble with comprehension. By the way just checking out some your previous posts, surely you wear the crown much better than I do for the sillest posts on head-fi._

 

I was being polite when I wrote Silly, to be more concise I should have written Idiotic or Moronic. You wrote
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *johnwmclean* 
_The 800's don't really have that WOW factor thing going for them. They can be easily dismissed by this interpretation of first impressions. Take them home and listen to them for month, then try listening to anything else._

 

My impressions of the 800's could certainly be stated as they had no WOW factor (Dull), but you say that "interpretation" is a first impression and that a person would need to take them home for a month and then everything else would be unlistenable. How does someone take them home for month except to purchase a set? I'm sorry how else could your statement be interpreted? I'm not "angy", I just find your statement idiotic. Your statement clearly says that even if upon initial auditioning a person finds that the 800's "don't really have that WOW factor thing going for them" that they should "Take them home and listen to them for month" (Buy them) and that then "try listening to anything else." Your entire statement is made as Fact. There is no mention of IMO, or IME. 

 If you had written something like:
  Quote:


 _Initially I found that the 800's didn't really have that WOW factor thing going for them. It appears that first impressions can be misleading because after I took them home and listened to them for month I now find it near impossible to listen to anything else._ 
 

Something like this would not have elicited a response from me. Can you understand the difference?


 As far as listing my experience goes, I didn't say you impugned my experience. I was making a point that there are members that do have the experience to make a fairly quick evaluation and determine whether or not a component merits further examination. Some of us don't require a month to divine if a headphone is for us. For me 30 minutes with two different sets of 800's was enough, they're not for me.

 And if I do wear the Silliest post crown I wear it proudly, although somehow I doubt that I have that honor.


----------



## Yikes

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tim3320070* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yikes,
 Do you have a comparison of SE vs balanced with the D7000/ Phoenix or were they balanced before getting the Phoenix? Did soundstage increase balanced?
 Impressions please.
 Thanks_

 

I partially broke in the 7000's single ended, about 120 hours (of which I listened for maybe 10). I was really liking them single ended. I then sent them in for recabling.

 Now they are balanced with my wire. What I can do is in the next week or so I'll make an effort to compare my recabled 7000's Single Ended vs. Balanced (I have a SE adapter). The comparison will be of a recabled set but the differences between Balanced and SE should be similar.


----------



## n_maher

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I wouldn't mind having that lid on the PSU for the Phoenix. It gets burning hot._

 

It would make little to no difference unless there is ventilation on the bottom or side panels to allow air to flow in. Simply venting the top panel isn't even a half measure at addressing heat and with so few small vents it's hardly vented at all.


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *n_maher* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It would make little to no difference unless there is ventilation on the bottom or side panels to allow air to flow in. Simply venting the top panel isn't even a half measure at addressing heat and with so few small vents it's hardly vented at all._

 

So, why can't we have a ventilation on bottom or side of Phoenix? Maybe a plausible request to Kingwa perhaps?


----------



## tim3320070

Why do you feel it's needed if Kingwa doesn't think it's necessary?


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tim3320070* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Why do you feel it's needed if Kingwa doesn't think it's necessary?_

 

I don't know. 

 I just thought lowering the temperature by any measure is a good idea, if the effort required is not that great.


----------



## Bob Jones

Somewhere,way back in the thread,someone posted a web site that showed computer heat sinks that would be perfect.Cooling fins and proper adheasive too.


----------



## Yikes

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bob Jones* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Got my Phoenix yesterday,functions beautifully.Thanks for all the help along the way.Over all I'm very pleased with the final outcome and feel Kingwa really came through for me.It was a long journey that I'm happy to put behind me. I never figured out why I couldn't get the first Phoenix to function.Turns out it worked right out of the box at it's next stop.
 But it's all about the music now._

 

Congratulations on finally having a functioning amp!

 If the amp now works after being shipped somewhere else (When it clearly didn't before) there is clearly an intermittent problem. IMO it's probably a bad solder joint that after being banged around is now making contact, but the question is for how long. That amp should go back to China. There's no way that I would want that amp. An intermittent problem is a huge PIA.


----------



## IPodPJ

Tim,

 Kingwa also thought the Reference One was in perfect working condition when it was originally sold. He quickly found out that wasn't the case and required an upgrade.

 I wouldn't want to make the Phoenix much cooler for functional purposes. It runs best at its hottest point. But I would like to make it cooler so it doesn't warm my apartment up so much.

 This would be ideal, once it is released:
Cool Chips plc

 But for now, I think I'll have to install something like this into whatever audio rack I end up with:

Herman Miller | be - Catalog - C2â„¢ climate control


----------



## n_maher

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tosehee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So, why can't we have a ventilation on bottom or side of Phoenix? Maybe a plausible request to Kingwa perhaps?_

 

I'm certainly not saying that you can't, only that adding just the top panel with a few slits in it on an otherwise completely sealed chassis probably won't help at all. 

 The ROC may very well have vents on both the top and bottom, I haven't seen enough pictures to know one way or the other and was just responding to PJ's post about adding that top panel to his existing power supply.


----------



## Pyriel0

If its class A, the gear is going to be producing the same amount of heat no matter what. Using heatsinks and vents would make the parts run cooler by dispersing the heat into your apartments air faster instead of keeping it mostly trapped in the case. = if you make it run cooler, your apartment will be hotter.


----------



## haloxt

I dunno if it sounds better hot or not hot, I've done some comparisons of it running HOT and after a fan has blown on it for 20 minutes then turning off the fan to listen, can't really tell a difference. I do feel more at ease with it cooled with a fan though 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 it gets so hot in the afternoon that when I put some fingers underneath the phoenix psu I can keep it there less than 2 seconds before I feel a reflex to pull my fingers away.

 The only air movement I'm giving the phoenix is whatever the window gives and I live in a pretty hot place. If leaving it on ~8 hours a day without a fan makes the Phoenix blow up I'll let you guys know 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## tim3320070

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Tim,

 Kingwa also thought the Reference One was in perfect working condition when it was originally sold. He quickly found out that wasn't the case and required an upgrade.

 I wouldn't want to make the Phoenix much cooler for functional purposes. It runs best at its hottest point. But I would like to make it cooler so it doesn't warm my apartment up so much.

 This would be ideal, once it is released:
Cool Chips plc

 But for now, I think I'll have to install something like this into whatever audio rack I end up with:

Herman Miller | be - Catalog - C2â„¢ climate control_

 

I won't argue that he might wish to make it ventilated someday. The amount of heat coming out of the unit is the same however, vented or not, whether it's slow or fast, so your room will be just as hot wouldn't it?


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bob Jones* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Got my Phoenix yesterday,functions beautifully.Thanks for all the help along the way.Over all I'm very pleased with the final outcome and feel Kingwa really came through for me.It was a long journey that I'm happy to put behind me. I never figured out why I couldn't get the first Phoenix to function.Turns out it worked right out of the box at it's next stop.
 But it's all about the music now._

 

Glad to hear you've got a working replacement Bob 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Did anyone find out what the issue was with the first one (out of curiosity) ?

 Peete.


 PS Mine runs warm but I wouldn't call it hot (compared to a big class A SS amp). Then again my ambient room never climbs above 74F....I suppose if I had no AC and the room temp was in the 80's I might have a slightly different view on this but the heat generated by the Phoenix isn't excessive ( compared to tube amps and other stuff I own). IMO at least.


----------



## tim3320070

Central AC sounds nice but ain't gonna happen in my 154 year old house.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tim3320070* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Central AC sounds nice but ain't gonna happen in my 154 year old house._

 

Your house is really 154 years old?? Or are you just exaggerating.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

I lived in a house that was built in 1852 in the 90's (5 minute walk from work which was nice) and it had central air installed without much trouble.

 Peete.


----------



## IPodPJ

If I lived in a house and had a full Class A speaker rig, there would be no way I could go without central A/C -- not here in southern California anyway.


----------



## moonboy403

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If I lived in a house and had a full Class A speaker rig, there would be no way I could go without central A/C -- not here in southern California anyway._

 

I did fine without central A/C for a few weeks.


----------



## dcpoor

my face melts and i hate using headphones this time of the year if the A/C is off.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *moonboy403* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I did fine without central A/C for a few weeks. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

When I get the Ref1 you should come over with your K1000 and new amp so we can have a listening session.


----------



## moonboy403

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_When I get the Ref1 you should come over with your K1000 and new amp so we can have a listening session._

 

When's your Ref1 coming? 

 My K1000 wouldn't get here till this Thursday and the Stingray wouldn't get here from Canada till at least next Friday. So at the moment, I don't have an amp or headphone to listen to.


----------



## tim3320070

Yes, my house is 154 years old an central AC would be easy enough except it's a historic landmark and doing work to it is very hard. It's the town and house where prohibition got it's roots with the Women's Temperance Union- some meetings were held in the house in the 20's apparently. Hilarious considering the current occupants (me and my wife)! Boozers and athiests, hah!


----------



## ServinginEcuador

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *moonboy403* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_When's your Ref1 coming? _

 

Looks like it shipped today according to the A-gd website. If history holds true he'll have it tomorrow or Thursday.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ServinginEcuador* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Looks like it shipped today according to the A-gd website. If history holds true he'll have it tomorrow or Thursday._

 

Any new opinions? You haven't said much about it.


----------



## ServinginEcuador

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Any new opinions? You haven't said much about it._

 

I'm simply enjoying it too much to say much about what's going on. Way more detailed and enjoyable...but then again I'm coming from an iPod with its DAC, so it's light years ahead of where I came from. 

 I'm waiting until the 7-10 day mark to really spend time analyzing the sound I'm hearing. It's running 24/7 right now, and I'm being patient and waiting until it's ready to fully say how it sounds.


----------



## Nada

Has anyone measured the power consumption of the Phoenix?
 Id like to know how many watts it sucks out of the grid as a measure of how well it will work as a heater for my study!
 Please post your readings if you have a power meter.


----------



## johnwmclean

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Nada* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Has anyone measured the power consumption of the Phoenix?
 Id like to know how many watts it sucks out of the grid as a measure of how well it will work as a heater for my study!
 Please post your readings if you have a power meter._

 

Aren't you Queensland? You could use it as a central heating unit.


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ServinginEcuador* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm simply enjoying it too much to say much about what's going on. Way more detailed and enjoyable...but then again I'm coming from an iPod with its DAC, so it's light years ahead of where I came from. 

 I'm waiting until the 7-10 day mark to really spend time analyzing the sound I'm hearing. It's running 24/7 right now, and I'm being patient and waiting until it's ready to fully say how it sounds._

 

Well, there is no doubt Phoenix will trash the internal amp used in iPod. There is no comparison. If you have or had more serious contender, that would have been a better comparison.


----------



## ServinginEcuador

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tosehee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well, there is no doubt Phoenix will trash the internal amp used in iPod. There is no comparison. If you have or had more serious contender, that would have been a better comparison._

 

iPod amp? No. iPod DAC? Yes. The amp in both cases was the Phoenix. I just went from running the Phoenix from being fed from the iPod DAC to a feed from the Reference 1 DAC.


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ServinginEcuador* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_iPod amp? No. iPod DAC? Yes. The amp in both cases was the Phoenix. I just went from running the Phoenix from being fed from the iPod DAC to a feed from the Reference 1 DAC._

 

Ahh. So you got both Ref1 and Phoenix.. 

 Cool setup. I suppose you are using CAST interconnect? How does it sound compare to XLR or RCA?


----------



## ServinginEcuador

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tosehee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ahh. So you got both Ref1 and Phoenix.. 

 Cool setup. I suppose you are using CAST interconnect? How does it sound compare to XLR or RCA?_

 

IIRC you're getting the same setup? 

 I am indeed running CAST outputs to the Phoenix. I have no idea how the Ref 1 XLR or RCA outputs sound. I stayed away from those outputs since I don't want to spend a bunch more money on trying cables. So far the CAST outputs sound incredible, but I have no frame of reference about how they compare to the other outputs.


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ServinginEcuador* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_IIRC you're getting the same setup? 

 I am indeed running CAST outputs to the Phoenix. I have no idea how the Ref 1 XLR or RCA outputs sound. I stayed away from those outputs since I don't want to spend a bunch more money on trying cables. So far the CAST outputs sound incredible, but I have no frame of reference about how they compare to the other outputs._

 

Yes I am. Kingwa is supposed to ship around August 10th. The waiting is a killer..


----------



## IPodPJ

Wrong thread. Oops.


----------



## laevi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Nada* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Has anyone measured the power consumption of the Phoenix?
 Id like to know how many watts it sucks out of the grid as a measure of how well it will work as a heater for my study!
 Please post your readings if you have a power meter._

 

My Phoenix draws ~ 67 Watts, driving a pair of HD650 single ended, with volume at 47/99. Measured with a Kill-a-Watt.

 I apologize for joining the discussion so late, but I lack the audio experience that others here have.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *laevi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My Phoenix draws ~ 67 Watts, driving a pair of HD650 single ended, with volume at 47/99. Measured with a Kill-a-Watt.

 I apologize for joining the discussion so late, but I lack the audio experience that others here have._

 

Really.... I guess Kingwa's measurements of 48W was quite a ways off.


----------



## moonboy403

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Really.... I guess Kingwa's measurements of 48W was quite a ways off._

 

I was going to point that out but then I saw your post.


----------



## scootermafia

I ordered a Phoenix. There's 122 pages of posts. Rather, I upgraded from my Roc order. So, people. Is the Phoenix good?

 Also, I'm going to let everyone in on a once in a lifetime trade. Your worthless Ref 1, for my awesome Havana. I'm standing by


----------



## moonboy403

Welcome to the club! 

 But actually, I'm not in the club anymore.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *scootermafia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Your worthless Ref 1, for my awesome Havana. I'm standing by _

 

First it has to arrive.


----------



## haloxt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *scootermafia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I ordered a Phoenix. There's 122 pages of posts. Rather, I upgraded from my Roc order. So, people. Is the Phoenix good?

 Also, I'm going to let everyone in on a once in a lifetime trade. Your worthless Ref 1, for my awesome Havana. I'm standing by _

 

Why not get the roc? I was thinking it might be about as good as the phoenix for most setups.

 edit: i just read your posts on the roc thread. I wonder though if phoenix won't give you more upgraditis than the roc 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## Currawong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *scootermafia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ So, people. Is the Phoenix good?_

 

It's as good as your source.


----------



## tosehee

I hear a great thing about Havanaa, so it would be interesting if you could do a comparison before you sell it off or trade.. 

 But then, if you are short on money, that's a totally different story all together.. 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *scootermafia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I ordered a Phoenix. There's 122 pages of posts. Rather, I upgraded from my Roc order. So, people. Is the Phoenix good?

 Also, I'm going to let everyone in on a once in a lifetime trade. Your worthless Ref 1, for my awesome Havana. I'm standing by _


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *laevi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My Phoenix draws ~ 67 Watts, driving a pair of HD650 single ended, with volume at 47/99. Measured with a Kill-a-Watt.

 I apologize for joining the discussion so late, but I lack the audio experience that others here have._

 


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *moonboy403* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I was going to point that out but then I saw your post._

 

Well maybe not....measure the draw at volume setting 20-30 (99 step mode) to represent what a typical balanced volume setting would draw. The way gain (current domain) is handled on this amp is very different from a typical design. It's variable with the volume setting.

 Peete.

 PS: Whoops, meant to quote laevi as well in this reply. There fixed it...


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It's as good as your source. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

 X 10....absolutely agreed.

 Peete.


----------



## IPodPJ

Peete,
 He should have posted maximum current draw, not average current draw. Average current draw doesn't let you know if your circuit/power regenerator/surge suppressor/etc. will be able to handle a full load.

 And besides, isn't Class A gear supposed to run at full power all the time?


----------



## laevi

I'll see if I can find some time to take some power measurements tonight with the Phoenix driving my HD650 balanced.

 I recall the 67 W draw being pretty much constant regardless of the music playing through the Phoenix. I don't know the voltage of the signal coming from the DAC, but for reference purposes, the 67 W measurement was taken under following conditions:

 Benchmark DAC1 2005 build, XLR output, default -20 dB XLR output attenuation, pot @ ~ 1 o'clock position.


----------



## Nada

Hi Laevi - a big welcome to the thread and a big thanks for posting your data on the power use of the Phoenix. Thats really interesting to know what it actually uses for you. Im sorry about subsequent posts delving into conceptual speculations about how it should or should not be measured. There will always be endless theories but its data that tells the actual story and it looks like your the only one who has bothered to do the work of data collection so praise to you man. Your data might relax a whole bunch of worries about the Phoenix overheating listening rooms. Its about equal to a medium power light bulb after all!

 Now where are others data?


----------



## scootermafia

Peete, you've surely heard M3 vs. Phoenix. Thoughts?


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Nada* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi Laevi - a big welcome to the thread and a big thanks for posting your data on the power use of the Phoenix. Thats really interesting to know what it actually uses for you. Im sorry about subsequent posts delving into conceptual speculations about how it should or should not be measured. There will always be endless theories but its data that tells the actual story and it looks like your the only one who has bothered to do the work of data collection so praise to you man. Your data might relax a whole bunch of worries about the Phoenix overheating listening rooms. Its about equal to a medium power light bulb after all!

 Now where are others data?_

 

I don't see what's wrong with asking about other possibilities.....
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 More info is good ...not bad. There is no intent to deny his experience or undermine it. I welcome any factual accounts as I'm sure the other members do...if questions arise from that info then questions should be asked. 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *scootermafia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Peete, you've surely heard M3 vs. Phoenix. Thoughts?_

 

Nope. I built a tweaked out Jaycar kit amp with a beastie of a PSU behind it but the M^3 I have not heard (yet). I'm sure it's a good amp from all the praise it receives. 

 It's still too early in the ownership phase to say anything definitive other than it's a bloody good preamp in my main rig. I really need a lot more evaluation time with it using my 650's. Concentrated evaluation time which I've not been able to do a lot of recently because of summer activities, obligations, etc etc...

 I can say it really grabs a hold of the 650's and tells them who's boss. I'm certainly enjoying what I'm hearing thus far. I only have around 300 hours on mine, if that, so I have a ways to go before I feel it's ready for serious study. I like to take my time with new gear. In the meantime I hope to hear other amps of a comparable level so I can get a bearing where this amp lies but with the local meet situation not looking any better than it did 6 months ago (going nowhere fast) that is a long shot (for now).

 Peete.


----------



## scootermafia

Looks like I have to save for a ref 1. What isn't obvious is that the DAC9 while it has the same specs as the Ref 1 minus the DSP-1 board, the Ref 1 actually has the chips on the main board directly while the DAC9 has them mounted to miniboards which are then mounted to the main board. Kingwa explained all this to me, and now I have to rustle up $1700.


----------



## tosehee

Scooter.

 I just got a reply from kingwa. He's going to put an optical input and selector for me. If you want the same configuration, you can probably do so.


----------



## laevi

I cannot personally vouch for the accuracy of the Kill-a-Watt, and I'm too ignorant to claim that its measurements might have any validity. But here they are anyway:

 Conditions:
 -DAC1, XLR output to Phoenix, -20dB output attenuation, pot @ 1 o'clock
 -Source music: From This Moment On (Diana Krall)

 -Phoenix volume 30/99, HD650 balanced: 59 W
 -Phoenix volume 35/99 (preferred volume for me for this album), HD650 balanced: 61 W

 Oddly enough, the Phoenix draws more power at volume 20/99 ....

 -Phoenix volume 20/99, HD650 balanced: 61 W 

 Thanks for the welcome, and thanks to everybody for their insights and opinions. It really helps someone who doesn't know much like me.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Nada* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Its about equal to a medium power light bulb after all!_

 

Would you stick your hand on a 60 watt light bulb?


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *laevi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I cannot personally vouch for the accuracy of the Kill-a-Watt, and I'm too ignorant to claim that its measurements might have any validity. But here they are anyway:

 Conditions:
 -DAC1, XLR output to Phoenix, -20dB output attenuation, pot @ 1 o'clock
 -Source music: From This Moment On (Diana Krall)

 -Phoenix volume 30/99, HD650 balanced: 59 W
 -Phoenix volume 35/99 (preferred volume for me for this album), HD650 balanced: 61 W

 Oddly enough, the Phoenix draws more power at volume 20/99 ....

 -Phoenix volume 20/99, HD650 balanced: 61 W 

 Thanks for the welcome, and thanks to everybody for their insights and opinions. It really helps someone who doesn't know much like me._

 

Thanks for those measurements. So whether it's 59W, 61W, or 67W, the fact is it's quite a bit higher than the 48W measurements taken by Kingwa.

 Kingwa, you got some 'splainin to do.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Thanks for the additional measurements laevi. It's appreciated greatly 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I wonder how the original figure (48V) was determined ? 

 Peete.


----------



## IPodPJ

Steve from Q-Audio is making me a pair of 100 ohm resistance XLR adaptors to use with my headphones. The HD800 seem to do better with more resistance. This is what I've concluded so far from the different amps I've heard them with. The HD800 have a funny impedance curve, nearly double around 100 Hz than any other part of the spectrum.

 I've had him order some of the best resistors you can buy for audio applications: Mills
Mills Resistors

 For the XLR male-to-female adaptors we chose the Switchcraft S3FM due to the ample room they have inside to incorporate the resistor directly without having to turn this adaptor into a cable.






 I am hoping this will give me the bass impact I heard with the balanced B22. When I turn the volume up on the Phoenix, the bass response is better than at low or moderate volumes, whereas the midrange and treble are equally responsive at any volume. The problem with this is I don't want to destroy my hearing so I am not going to listen to it loud. My thoughts are that with added resistance the Phoenix will be working harder and putting out more power, as well as an increase in the variable gain controlled by the CAST circuit.

 If this works as I am hoping, I will probably hardwire the resistors into the XLR outputs on the Phoenix. Because he had to order the parts, I don't think I will have these in my hands in the coming week - likely the week after.


----------



## sandchak

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks for the additional measurements laevi. It's appreciated greatly 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I wonder how the original figure (48V) was determined ? 

 Peete._

 

Peete,

 Although I don't own a Phoenix, I was interested in the answer myself, so I wrote to Kingwa.

 This is what he replied :

  Quote:


 Dear Sandeep,
 We are test in 220V, if test in 120V or 240V, the power will rise 10%, if test in 127V , the power will rise 16%.
 And I think the voltage not always fastness, some area standard 220V but some time will rise to 245V.
 Kingwa 
 

by fastness, I think he means power isn't always steady.


----------



## DoYouRight

why not just get a B22 built ipodpj?


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DoYouRight* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_why not just get a B22 built ipodpj?_

 

Money that I don't have. Plus, the Phoenix beats the B22 in several areas.


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Money that I don't have. Plus, the Phoenix beats the B22 in several areas._

 

I was under the impression that you favored b22 over phoenix..


----------



## IPodPJ

I favor certain aspects of the B22 over the Phoenix, namely bass impact and detail. But I feel the Phoenix is more musical, textured and has a better sense of space. I'd like to have both.


----------



## DoYouRight

B22 can be built with the nice engraved front panels like all the top looking ones like KrMathis for 800+400 in panels plus casex2 so roughtly $1500. + or minus a few more parts. It is really not much more than a Pheonix to have a INSANE B22 build. Mine is that price about with a 6 board balanced config so active grounds on teh balanced whereas almost all are 4 board. This accomodates SE better with maintaining an active ground on either side.


----------



## The Monkey

^ What does this have to do with the Phoenix?


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DoYouRight* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_B22 can be built with the nice engraved front panels like all the top looking ones like KrMathis for 800+400 in panels plus casex2 so roughtly $1500. + or minus a few more parts. It is really not much more than a Pheonix to have a INSANE B22 build. Mine is that price about with a 6 board balanced config so active grounds on teh balanced whereas almost all are 4 board. This accomodates SE better with maintaining an active ground on either side._

 

Where did you get your B22 done for $1500+? I have consulted YBM like an year ago, and I got a quote for $3200.


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I favor certain aspects of the B22 over the Phoenix, namely bass impact and detail. But I feel the Phoenix is more musical, textured and has a better sense of space. I'd like to have both._

 

I'd love to audition the b22 myself to get a good sense of it. Once I get Phoenix, I will make sure to attend the local meetup to thoroughly compare with other amps.


----------



## Yikes

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DoYouRight* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_B22 can be built with the nice engraved front panels like all the top looking ones like KrMathis for 800+400 in panels plus casex2 so roughtly $1500. + or minus a few more parts. It is really not much more than a Pheonix to have a INSANE B22 build. Mine is that price about with a 6 board balanced config so active grounds on teh balanced whereas almost all are 4 board. This accomodates SE better with maintaining an active ground on either side._

 


 That's funny. The B22 is not a consumer product. So yours is roughly $1500 (According to your signature you haven't even completed it), so how many hours does it take the average DIYer to complete such an amp? 10? 40? 100? How much is your time worth? How much is a Warranty worth? How much are the features that the Phoenix offers, but No B22 offers worth? More importantly how much would it cost to have a Loaded 6 channel B22 built by a skilled technician?

 The members who claim that a loaded B22 can be had for $1200-$1500 are at best being extremely disingenuous. Please feel free to argue that a loaded 2 chassis 6 channel B22 sounds better than a Phoenix. I don't have enough experience with B22's to offer an opinion about the relative performance. What I do know is that the B22 is a DIY amp that is significantly more expensive and functionally crude in comparison to a Phoenix.

 Of course all of this has been gone over before in this thread. DoYouRight is just a flame baiter, trying to stir up some controversy where none exists.


----------



## scootermafia

Yeah, you're never going to get a Beta ever, let alone for the Phoenix's price, with a nice warranty and all the myriad features of the Phoenix. Crude pretty much sums up the B22, it is a very powerful and simple DIY amp and sadly it probably cannot be had for the Phoenix's price.


----------



## IPodPJ

Agreed. The only way you will get a balanced B22 for that price is if you build it yourself, or have someone in China build it for you. You cannot commission any reputable builder here to do it for that price. If so, please let me know who.

 The Phoenix is also a preamp, has 5 inputs, several outputs, remote control, volume attenuator not in the signal path, has 3-pin and 4-pin XLR and SE headphone outputs, and it uses CAST so the best results will come from using one of his CAST DACs. Not to mention, the Phoenix looks very good.

 They are two very different animals and if you were to commission a balanced B22 with all the features of the Phoenix, you're looking to spend double to triple what YMB would normally charge you.


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *scootermafia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yeah, you're never going to get a Beta ever, let alone for the Phoenix's price, with a nice warranty and all the myriad features of the Phoenix. Crude pretty much sums up the B22, it is a very powerful and simple DIY amp and sadly it probably cannot be had for the Phoenix's price._

 

I asked for YBM for a quote a year ago, and I got quoted for $3200 for 4 channel balanced configuration..

 So, definitely not at the price of Phoenix. How much better is B22 over Phoenix? that's a subjective question that only you can answer i assume.


----------



## DoYouRight

Why wouldnt you build it yourself? 

 And I am NOT a flame baiter, I could care less, I enjoy Audio-GD gear, the thing is, IPODPJ was claiming the bass impact was better on B22. I am still curious if I should buy a phoenix as well or just finish up my B22, which mostly left is just enclosure. Having someone other than a friend or someone here build one for special like KrMathis I would never pay someone more money than parts cost to build anything.

 I am still waiting for a chance to hear a Phoenix and might get one also to go along with B22 so that I can have strong amps in different places. Please don't presume to know about me or my intentions, Yikes. That is no called for.

 Merely was asking him why he didn't try that route also.

 EDIT: I also was very much curious which direction to go between Phoenix and B22, and ended up staying with B22 since I will, and have enjoyed making it exactly the way I like in cosmetic fashion. I didn't think anyone here would commission a B22 unless they had no time, yes bulding yourself can cause some fried boards, but in the end still cheaper and more worthwhile than paying someone to do it for you.

 That is beyond the point, I am just curious why the direction wasn't taken by a member. Plus the idea of bass impact is huge for me since I am getting an HD800 as my next can and after the reviews it made me worry as I like palpable bass in my phones. Sorry to stir up so much angst by members here, when all I did was ask a question, and than say it wouldnt be ALOT more to build one yourself, again maybe Im naive but I didn't realize so many people would think of commissioning a build, to me that is insane unless AMB built it himself.



 IPODPJ: Back to what matters, how is the texture specifically different between the 2 amps?


----------



## IPodPJ

Most people know nothing about how to build an amplifier. I have no clue how to do something like that. I can design and have the case made but soldering the boards and putting it together, not a chance. I've never done that before and most people haven't either.

 I've commented in the thread how they compare.


----------



## DoYouRight

What power cable are you enjoying atm or want to use with your Pheonix? I am trying to decide if I should get a serious cable to go with my amp. You seem like someone who is honest and serious about cables and not a fanboy like Patrick82.


----------



## IPodPJ

I have several high-end cables and have tried close to 40 different ones. The best one for the Phoenix is the $75 Audio-gd Exclusive power cord, at the moment. Once I hook up the Reference One DAC, that may all change.


----------



## johnwmclean

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The members who claim that a loaded B22 can be had for $1200-$1500 are at best being extremely disingenuous. Please feel free to argue that a loaded 2 chassis 6 channel B22 sounds better than a Phoenix. I don't have enough experience with B22's to offer an opinion about the relative performance. What I do know is that the B22 is a DIY amp that is significantly more expensive and functionally crude in comparison to a Phoenix.

 Of course all of this has been gone over before in this thread. DoYouRight is just a flame baiter, trying to stir up some controversy where none exists._

 

DoYouRight was referring to parts only, the $1200-$1500 price he stated is correct. The B22 also does not inherently benefit from premium audio grade components with exception of the attenuator and audio signal cable. DoYouRight is not a flame baiter, I’ve read loads of his posts - but I know someone who is


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *johnwmclean* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_DoYouRight was referring to parts only, the $1200-$1500 price he stated is correct. The B22 also does not inherently benefit from premium audio grade components with exception of the attenuator and audio signal cable. DoYouRight is not a flame baiter, I’ve read loads of his posts - but I know someone who is 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

B22 would have a fun project if I knew anything about soldering. It's something that I'd like to get into one day, just for a heck of it. As for now though, I am crunched with work and family time. I hardly have no time to solder anything, not to mention the time to enjoy a music is scarce itself.

 The difference between B22/Phoenix/Apache/GS-X is not something that we can identify 100% of the time (just my opinion). If we have a blind fold test of all these amps, I am sure it's not always one or the other amp that comes out. These are all great amps, and I don't think anyone will regret getting one over the other.

 Regards


----------



## johnwmclean

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tosehee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The difference between B22/Phoenix/Apache/GS-X is not something that we can identify 100% of the time (just my opinion). If we have a blind fold test of all these amps, I am sure it's not always one or the other amp that comes out. These are all great amps, and I don't think anyone will regret getting one over the other._

 

True, I would love to hear the Phoenix - it appears to have a very high cost performance ratio, given it comparability to a balanced Beta22.


----------



## punk_guy182

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have several high-end cables and have tried close to 40 different ones. The best one for the Phoenix is the $75 Audio-gd Exclusive power cord, at the moment. Once I hook up the Reference One DAC, that may all change._

 

Have you tried the PS audio Power Punch power cable?
 Sganzerla reported having tried many with the Compass even the Audio-GD one and the Power Punch was the clear winner. He described the cable improving bass, separation and smothning the harshness that you tought wasn't there.
 It can't be purchased for a little less than the Audio-GD one.

 I'm hesiting between the two. My budget is small. What do you guys think?


----------



## DoYouRight

Thanks Punk I will try one of those out or maybe the PerfectWave AC3 cord for $99! I was just curious about that, thanks man


----------



## punk_guy182

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DoYouRight* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks Punk I will try one of those out or maybe the PerfectWave AC3 cord for $99! I was just curious about that, thanks man 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Yes!
 He did mention the AC3 and the Power Punch being the 2 best power cables when he tested the Compass and other audio equipment. He reported hearing the same results with different gear which is quite surprising since the synergy factor is to take in serious consideration when testing power cables with components.


----------



## ServinginEcuador

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *punk_guy182* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm hesiting between the two. My budget is small. What do you guys think?_

 

Sadly, no one seems to have tried both of these on the Phoenix. Take one for the team and buy both. Keep the one that sounds best, report your findings here, and sell/return the loser. 

 Kingwa designed the Phoenix around his PC, and I'm not sure he did the same with the Compass.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *johnwmclean* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_True, I would love to hear the Phoenix - it appears to have a very high cost performance ratio, given it comparability to a balanced Beta22._

 

Read my posts in the Reference One thread. The combo of Phoenx/Ref1/HD800 is the best I've ever heard. The Ref1, absolutely mindblowing.

 As far as the power cords go, avoid the low cost ones. Their high end ones are good but nothing will touch the Audio-gd cord in its price range in my opinion, and I've tried many power cords. It compares to $500 - $1000 cords I've tried.


----------



## The Monkey

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *punk_guy182* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 I'm hesiting between the two. My budget is small. What do you guys think?_

 

Save your money is what I think.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *The Monkey* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Save your money is what I think._

 

You don't think power cords make a difference?


----------



## IPodPJ

Here's a new observation. Since I've been using CAST with the Ref1, the Phoenix has been running cooler. Maybe it uses less power in its native CAST mode. I'll have to ask Kingwa.


----------



## The Monkey

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You don't think power cords make a difference?_

 

That is correct; I do not think they make a difference. But I am aware that there are plenty of people out there who do. Regardless of which camp one falls into in that regard, I think spending a lot of money on cables, especially when one's budget is constrained, is not the best allocation of resources. My advice is generally to buy something mechanically reliable and safe from a reputable manufacturer (not necessarily "audiophile") and use the savings toward music or upgraded electronics down the road. Or food.


----------



## pompon

It's simpler to add something in stereo system to change amp/source/dac. It's why peaple buy "better" cable giving a different coloration to their system.


----------



## The Monkey

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pompon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It's simpler to add something in stereo system to change amp/source/dac. It's why peaple buy "better" cable giving a different coloration to their system._

 

That, of course, assumes that cables change anything at all.


----------



## pompon

Can you telling us more about the recabled job on your phoenix and on your xlr connector with the resistor on it ? The fact of single end sound better than XLR is a stop for me atm.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pompon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Can you telling us more about the recabled job on your phoenix and on your xlr connector with the resistor on it ? The fact of single end sound better than XLR is a stop for me atm._

 

There is no resistor inside the amp. I am having a resistance adaptor made to plug my headphones into the amp. But with the Ref1, it is not necessary.

 I won't use XLR or RCA anymore. CAST is the only way to go with this combo. In fact it is so good that I might eventually have Lemo connectors put on both the Phoenix and Ref1.

 SE sounded better in the bass department once the amp was fully warmed up. XLR has better separation. But then I switched from XLR input 4 to input 2 and the bass was pretty much equal.

 The Phoenix has not been recabled yet and I'm not sure that it needs it, at least for CAST. You could experiment with different wires if you want. My Ref1 is recabled with Cardas single Litz on the XLR and RCA outputs.


----------



## Bob Jones

Hold it hold it hold it.Back to the subject.I've had a rough road getting here.Yea the monkey man came through for me with a dac to die for.The Phoenix was tough,couldn't get the first one to work,the second one worked but.Anyway,my problem,the amp started farther back than any amp I've owned.Muddy base,harsh highs,no soundstage.The dac {Northstar Mk 2 } was there from day one,I can't explain.Now after many hours of burn in IT has finally happened.MUSIC IS BACK,GOTTA GO.


----------



## tosehee

It takes that many hours to burn in before you start to enjoy the music? Wow. that's the first amp with such high hour burn in. I usually do not believe in "burn-in" concept in the first place, but man. I guess I will have to check it out myself.. Damn. This waiting game truly sucks ball.


----------



## IPodPJ

It takes warm-up. About 4 hours.


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It takes warm-up. About 4 hours._

 

Bob's comment seems to be saying that his phoenix wasn't too great until so many hours of burn in.. That's what I was little puzzled at..


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tosehee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Bob's comment seems to be saying that his phoenix wasn't too great until so many hours of burn in.. That's what I was little puzzled at.._

 

I haven't had that experience.


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


 Anyway,my problem,the amp started farther back than any amp I've owned.Muddy base,harsh highs,no soundstage.The dac {Northstar Mk 2 } was there from day one,I can't explain.Now after many hours of burn in IT has finally happened.MUSIC IS BACK,GOTTA GO. 
 

For some reason, I had quite a negative impression from reading this..


----------



## punk_guy182

Same here.
 I'd like some clarifications on the comment.


----------



## Yikes

Warming up, and Breaking-In are two different things. Even after in excess of 500 hours of break-in the Phoenix still takes about 30 minutes to an hour to come up to it's operating temperature and sound it's best (IME not the 4 hours that some claim).

 As far as Break-In goes; it's difficult to say, because it's a gradual process. It didn't suck when brand new, but I'd say it definitely benefits from a few hundred hours under it's belt. Meaning that it does sound better now than it did a month ago.

 I played the Phoenix as a Preamp 24/7 for two weeks, and then the Headphone amp outputs for about 18 hours a day for about 3 weeks (with another 6 hr a day serving preamp duties).

 Now the Phoenix is on almost all the time, and amplifying for maybe 10 hours a day (75% Preamp duty). I consider it mostly broken-in, however I have had electronics that took well in excess of a thousand hours to finally settle in.

 IME a lot of electronics gear actually takes longer to break-in than most Speakers or Headphones, the primary difference being that the effects of electronics breaking-in is usually more subtle than that of Headphones or Speakers.

 Of course this is all IME, Oh and it's what I have observed my customers experiencing over the past 25 years.

 So my advice is that when you buy a new toy (Headphones or Electronics) you play it 24/7 for the first 3 weeks. The first thing that this does is it puts 500+ hours on the gear which is usually the lions share of break-in. Second thing it does is it stresses the gear as much as possible while you're still covered under the Return Policy. Things usually fail within the first few hundred hours, so it's best to get those hours out of the way quickly. So even if you don't believe in Break-In there is still a valid reason to play the hell out of your new toys for the first month.


----------



## tosehee

Well, I am sure and I do not dispute the benefits of burn in. I was just little puzzled because his remark/comments seem like the dac was crappy with initial impression.


----------



## scootermafia

Well, my Phoenix is shipping on either the 9th or 12th according to Kingwa's cryptic answer. I traded my Havana to Tyson for his DAC8 plus a couple hundred bucks, I may or may not upgrade it to Ref1 later by soldering in the fancy new DSP. Pretty happy with the deal, I'll have full cast in a week or so hopefully.


----------



## Bob Jones

I'm still not listening a lot but continue to burn in.Runs 8-10 hours a day.My listening sessions are about an hour every few days.
 Yes the sound improved,everything cleared/cleaned up.Instruments have there own distinct spot. Instruments so REAL.My music sounds incredible.
 On the soundstage,what I hear is me ON the stage with the band.As opposed to being in the audience of a large music hall.
 Remember,this is just what I'm hearing.Would I buy it again?Yes.Would I recommend the Phoenix to others?You bet.


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bob Jones* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm still not listening a lot but continue to burn in.Runs 8-10 hours a day.My listening sessions are about an hour every few days.
 Yes the sound improved,everything cleared/cleaned up.Instruments have there own distinct spot. Instruments so REAL.My music sounds incredible.
 On the soundstage,what I hear is me ON the stage with the band.As opposed to being in the audience of a large music hall.
 Remember,this is just what I'm hearing.Would I buy it again?Yes.Would I recommend the Phoenix to others?You bet._

 

well, your 2nd comment/remark is far more forgiving than your first. 

 Thanks for sharing the impression.


----------



## Charnwood

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *scootermafia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well, my Phoenix is shipping on either the 9th or 12th according to Kingwa's cryptic answer. I traded my Havana to Tyson for his DAC8 plus a couple hundred bucks, I may or may not upgrade it to Ref1 later by soldering in the fancy new DSP. Pretty happy with the deal, I'll have full cast in a week or so hopefully._

 

According to DHL tracking my Phoenix as just left Leipzig. Hopefully not much longer to wait now!


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Charnwood* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_According to DHL tracking my Phoenix as just left Leipzig. Hopefully not much longer to wait now!_

 

Wow. A lot of new buyers.. I am sure these wonderful impression have to do with some..

 Mine should be shipping around August 9th or 10th. So, mine is too far of yours. Don't forget to share your impression.


----------



## akg702

My phoenix will be shipping out next week. My headphones are AKG 702 and Denon AH 7000 both stock cables.

 Can anyone recommend a good DAC for it? My sources are the computer, ipod Rockbox and CD players.

 Thanks


----------



## IPodPJ

I just sent you a PM. I've got a great DAC for sale.


----------



## scootermafia

Hooray for LEMO. 10000000 connectors, not in stock hardly anywhere, for massively high prices, on overkill designed pro plugs. They look like they're for hooking up alien medical equipment. I do appreciate the PEEK insulation though.

 I filed a quote on their own website. It doesn't look like too many places have real LEMOs of this variety in stock, the FGG.1B.304.CLAD52. I do want to make my own cables.


----------



## scootermafia

FGG.1B.304.CLAD52Z

 Found them. The 52Z and 52 are very similar, the rear nut is just a little different on the Z. $34 each is brutal.


----------



## scootermafia

LEMO|FGG.1B.304.CLAD62Z|Circular Connector | Newark.com

 And here's the rock bottom price. Only difference between the 52 and the 62 is the 5.2mm and 6.2mm "cable fixing diameter", probably the width of the back entry hole. The connectors have identical external dimensions, pin configuration, etc etc. Also it doesn't appear to matter if you pick 52, 62, 52z or 62z. The Z means there's a nut shaped rear or something for strain relief, who cares.


----------



## Yikes

Do not assume that since you've made some RCA or XLR cables that you will be able to successfully make some Lemo terminated cables. Ask Les. The connectors Pins are a massive BITCH to solder. Even techs experienced with terminating Lemos make frequent errors and use many spare Pins.

 That is why Professionals often use the Crimp Pins, but to use those you'd need a $300 custom tool.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Do not assume that since you've made some RCA or XLR cables that you will be able to successfully make some Lemo terminated cables. Ask Les. The connectors Pins are a massive BITCH to solder. Even techs experienced with terminating Lemos make frequent errors and use many spare Pins.

 That is why Professionals often use the Crimp Pins, but to use those you'd need a $300 custom tool._

 

Hi Yikes,
 You speak the truth here. I'm getting ready to give Scooter a call about these. Here are my thoughts after doing these. 

 First, LEMOs are space shuttle quality, no doubt. Real *Pleasure* to use.

 Second, if you are not buying Krell in the future, you don't need to stick to the strict Krell LEMO form factor. The Krell Form Factor LEMOs are TOO small. This makes them *DIFFICULT* to terminate. Yikes works in the Cable BIZ, if he says they're difficult, that should scare the crap out of you. Additionally, I think they are difficult to terminate also, if that means anything! I have a screwed up Female connector to show for it.

 So, I still love the LEMOs, but I would bump up to the 2B series. The 1B are supposed to take 22Ga wire, but IME no way in hell that is happening. I had a struggle with 26 ga Mogami after giving up on 24 ga CARDAS. If you are not doing KRELL in your future, who cares about the connector Form Factor compatibility? Kingwa's CAST are his own standard as well.

 These guys have the Best prices and are fast shippers. Call Shane, get a price and plug the prices into the online order form. They supply the space industry in Huntsville, so have a lot of stuff on hand.

 Shane 800-329-9907 Hartselle, AL Delta Components USA - Hartselle, Alabama

 FFG 1B FGG.1B.304.CLAD52 Male 

 EGG 1B EGG.1B.304.CLL Female

 Like I said, if I were doing his again, I would strongly consider whether you might buy a Krell CAST capable amp in the future. If so, stick with the 1B series, if not get the EGG and FFG in the 2B series IMHO. Gives you MO' better cable choices 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 .


----------



## scootermafia

Yeah, the HD800 connector is like a Lemo with tiny pins extremely close together. And it can't be that much worse than an iPod dock connector, but I'll take cautions...keep in mind I have a wire up my sleeve that is 1.25mm with insulation but is 24 gauge...it will fit this nasty connector. I still think adding a DSP-1 board first is a bigger upgrade than doing these pesky CAST sockets, but yeah...

 replacing the chinese fake-cast with 4 pin xlr would be a great idea, why doesn't Kingwa just do that....

 Edit: and I appreciate the call Les...and the hookup on low low prices...


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *scootermafia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yeah, the HD800 connector is like a Lemo with tiny pins extremely close together. And it can't be that much worse than an iPod dock connector, but I'll take cautions...keep in mind I have a wire up my sleeve that is 1.25mm with insulation but is 24 gauge...it will fit this nasty connector. I still think adding a DSP-1 board first is a bigger upgrade than doing these pesky CAST sockets, but yeah...

 replacing the chinese fake-cast with 4 pin xlr would be a great idea, why doesn't Kingwa just do that....

 Edit: and I appreciate the call Les...and the hookup on low low prices..._

 

Last time I checked the Female was about $21 and the male was around $25. And you're welcome!

 .


----------



## Charnwood

Ok, my Phoenix arrived yesterday all in good shape. There top covers needed a clean but I think this was from the packaging material and not due to any deficiency on the part of Kingwa’s people because otherwise it was immaculate. The photos on the web site don’t do it justice.

 A surprise was the inclusion of a display on/off button on the back next to the debug button, it wasn’t something I’d asked for so I guess it comes as standard now. The remote came with a battery in a separate bag but it turned out it’s a spare.

 The big downer for me is that the channel selector knob shaft sheared through.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 It’s not a show stopper but certainly something I could do without. I’m waiting to hear back from Kingwa on this.

 So how does it sound? I’ve been using it single-ended, mainly as a preamp, and in that mode it’s the top to bottom clarity which impresses. The sound has amazing presence and that’s a rare quality.
 The cleanness and clarity can make it sound deceptively quiet through my HD600’s. Volume levels are something I’m going to have to be careful with.


----------



## haloxt

Display on/off would complete the phoenix. Glad ipodpj asked for it and audio-gd put it into standard phoenix. I don't really mind my sticker+piece of paper remedy though 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Display on/off would complete the phoenix. Glad ipodpj asked for it and audio-gd put it into standard phoenix. I don't really mind my sticker+piece of paper remedy though 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




._

 

Well, I told him it would be a good idea to include it on all of them but I didn't think he would actually do it. Cool.

 You know what the funny thing is? I almost never turn off the display.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Charnwood* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 The big downer for me is that the channel selector knob shaft *sheared through*.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 It’s not a show stopper but certainly something I could do without. I’m waiting to hear back from Kingwa on this.
_

 

Could you describe what you mean by this? Was it damage during shipment?

 .


----------



## Charnwood

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Could you describe what you mean by this? Was it damage during shipment?

 ._

 

The knob was in place and seemed okay when I unpacked the Phoenix though knocks and vibration during shipment might well have been a contibuting factor. I happen to notice the knob lying on the floor when I came to manoeuver the Phoenix into my equipment rack. I was carefully in my handling of the Phoenix because I didn't want to riisk marking the casework so I doubt it was the result of anything I might have done. 

 The shaft of the controller is plastic and it has broken clean through across where the shaft exits the knob, almost certainly as a result of a flaw in the plastic shaft. I've seen this type of break before on other equipment, its a typical case. 

 I hope this makes things clearer.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Charnwood* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The knob was in place and seemed okay when I unpacked the Phoenix though knocks and vibration during shipment might well have been a contibuting factor. I happen to notice the knob lying on the floor when I came to manoeuver the Phoenix into my equipment rack. I was carefully in my handling of the Phoenix because I didn't want to riisk marking the casework so I doubt it was the result of anything I might have done. 

 The shaft of the controller is plastic and it has broken clean through across where the shaft exits the knob, almost certainly as a result of a flaw in the plastic shaft. I've seen this type of break before on other equipment, its a typical case. 

 I hope this makes things clearer._

 

OK, Gotcha! It could also be a problem with the packing material putting pressure on the knob. If I were Kingwa, I would examine whether there is any pressure on the knob during shipment, since there may be some brittleness here.

 .


----------



## The Monkey

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Charnwood* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The shaft of the controller is plastic and it has broken clean through across where the shaft exits the knob, almost certainly as a result of a flaw in the plastic shaft. I've seen this type of break before on other equipment, its a typical case. 

 I hope this makes things clearer._

 

Sorry to hear that. It's pretty lame that it broke. Do you have any pictures?


----------



## ServinginEcuador

I'm going to build my own set of CAST and DC power cables using both the CryoParts TWCu and SCSCag wires. I want to see for myself if they make any difference in the amp's sound. The science of the OCC, both in its purity and how it's made, intrigue me greatly.

 So, if anyone who owns a Phoenix doesn't have plans to use the extra connectors that came with their amp I'd gladly pay for shipping plus another $20 to buy the connectors from them.


----------



## Toad

I'm looking to get a balanced amp in the near future and have been considering this one, but it seems the majority of people in here have it paired with the Ref1 and using cast. I just recently purchased a Cullen Modded DLIII in the for sale forums (which should be here Tuesday), has anyone heard this amp with that dac? Is this dac worth getting if it wont be used with the cast connections or should I look for a different amp? Sorry if these questions have been answered, but there are just so many pages to go through. 

 Also I notice a lot of the people here are using HD800s with this amp. Currently I have been listening to my HF2s the most, but I also have RS1 and HD650 (which I plan on getting balanced), though I think I prefer the HF2 to the RS1, so I may be selling those shortly. Would this amp be overkill for headphones such as these? What other balanced headphones do you guys think work well with this amp?


----------



## tosehee

IpodPJ used to (sold or still have i think) have your DAC along with Phoenix. He prefers RE1 and that's why he's selling the DL III assume. He's got a different mod than yours, but he's the closest person with the similar setup. He checks and contributes a lot, so I am sure he's got something to say about it.

 As for other amps, phoenix, b22, rsa b52, and others have a good review. I don't think you can go wrong with any of these. Obviously, phoenix is the cheapest, and pairs well with RE1 using cast. But, I do think it performs quite well using xlr also.

 Regards


----------



## Currawong

I really like HF-1s with my Phoenix to the point I have HF-2s on order. Other than with a Yamamoto HA-02 tube amp, the Phoenix was the first amp I've owned that wasn't fatiguing with Grados and the HD-800s, of which my pair is one with the hot treble. And that without being rolled-off in the highs to achieve that.


----------



## scootermafia

Hmm, if it is a plastic shaft a little superglue might work?


----------



## Charnwood

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *The Monkey* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sorry to hear that. It's pretty lame that it broke. Do you have any pictures?_

 

Attachment 19559

 Here's a picture of the knob.


----------



## Charnwood

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *scootermafia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hmm, if it is a plastic shaft a little superglue might work?_

 

The thought had occured to me. The diffiiculty is getting the two halves alligned correctly.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Charnwood* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The thought had occured to me. The diffiiculty is getting the two halves alligned correctly._

 

No way I would glue it like that. You need to be able to pull the knob off easily for any future issues. You need to get a new Encoder and knob from Kingwa and have it repaired, or send it back. Bummer...

 Kingwa needs to examine his shipping preparation for a flaw. He tries to bundle the hell out of his gear, but there may have been a pressure point on that knob. Your knob is not the first issue like this. Somebody else had a POT knocked loose on a Compass.

 .


----------



## Charnwood

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No way I would glue it like that. You need to be able to pull the knob off easily for any future issues. You need to get a new Encoder and knob from Kingwa and have it repaired, or send it back. Bummer...

 Kingwa needs to examine his shipping preparation for a flaw. He tries to bundle the hell out of his gear, but there may have been a pressure point on that knob. Your knob is not the first issue like this. Somebody else had a POT knocked loose on a Compass.

 ._

 

I agree. Kingwa's offered me both the alternatives you mentioned. I've asked him to send me the parts. After all, the amp works flawlessly and I'm getting like my Phoenix with a black eye.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Charnwood* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I agree. Kingwa's offered me both the alternatives you mentioned. I've asked him to send me the parts. After all, the amp works flawlessly and I'm getting like my Phoenix with a black eye. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Good Deal, happy listening! I really like mine, a lot!

 .


----------



## scootermafia

WTB metal shaft...

 Les what digital transport if any are you using? I think the Ref3 is exciting, but I do wish it could do asynchronous USB...


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *scootermafia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_WTB metal shaft...

 Les what digital transport if any are you using? I think the Ref3 is exciting, but I do wish it could do asynchronous USB..._

 

Computer/HT Omega Claro HALO >> BNC >> REF1

 .


----------



## scootermafia

Hmm, the Claro looks enticing...


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *scootermafia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hmm, the Claro looks enticing..._

 

HT Omega makes great cards. Their Tech support is real and answers almost as fast as Kingwa. Jugding by their syntax, I would say they are geographically close to kingwa(same Hemisphere) with same job ethics. May I never have to buy another SoundBlaster product! One can only pray! 

 The Claro Halo, I was incorrect above, has the awesome advantage that the COAX OUT headers are easily accessible from the PCB headers(VERY RARE!). Soldering on a piece of REAL COAX(MINI Canare RG-59) to a BNC bulhead connector was DUCK SOUP! So My COAX IN/OUT are on a Slot cover, very Kewl I must say. I put up PIX early in the REF1 thread of what I did.

 .


----------



## tosehee

I'd purchase the HT Omega if the BNC was already soldered. I am sorry, but I have not done any soldering in my life before, and I do not have any tools either. I would buy this if there is anyone who's willing to do the soldering job for me for a small fee?  I will supply the HT Omega along with the BNC parts that Les is referring to.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tosehee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'd purchase the HT Omega if the BNC was already soldered. I am sorry, but I have not done any soldering in my life before, and I do not have any tools either. I would buy this if there is anyone who's willing to do the soldering job for me for a small fee?  I will supply the HT Omega along with the BNC parts that Les is referring to._

 

You got yourself a PM on the way.

 .


----------



## les_garten

One more thing I need to point out if you go this route with the BNC soldered to the Halo Card. Because the BNC connector is so large, it doesn't fit through the slots on the back of the PC. There may be a more "Slimline' connector than I used, but I have not seen one. So the barrel of the BNC goes thru the slot opening but the base that is clamped to the slot cover is about 1-1.5mm thick and the diameter won't quite go thru. The solution is to push the sides of the PC case slots out a little. They are mild steel and malleable so this is not difficult at all. You can move them easily with your fingers.

 The second slight issue with doing this is that the BNC cable cannot "Fully" snap down on the lock because the slot sides are in the way. It is just a slight amount that is not finsihed in the rotation and still makes a good connection, so I don't feel it's an issue.

 While typing this up, it just occurred to me that the best fix for this would be to take some sheet metal nippers or a good set of big wire cutters and cut out those two slot sides that are in the way. Would be about an inch on each side. PC cases are structurally sound enough that this would not be an issue. That will be the next Mod I'll do to my case. I have some tin snips that are just waiting to get their Jaws on that CoolerMaster Stacker 830 case!

 .


----------



## scootermafia

My DAC8 is here (ref1 predecessor, the same DAC minus the DSP-1) and I'm very happy with it. Anyone that has any doubts about AudioGD, put them aside and open your hearts and wallets. I'm nothing but impressed.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *scootermafia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My DAC8 is here (ref1 predecessor, the same DAC minus the DSP-1) and I'm very happy with it. Anyone that has any doubts about AudioGD, put them aside and open your hearts and wallets. I'm nothing but impressed._

 

Have fun! Get back to us when you got some time on the clock.

 .


----------



## Currawong

Les, he bought Tyson's unit, which has well over 1000 hours IIRC.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Les, he bought Tyson's unit, which has well over 1000 hours IIRC. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I'm talking about when he gets more hours on his cerebral clock. I know which DAC he bought.

 .


----------



## scootermafia

Yep, the mental clock is ticking...it perfectly reproduces the music and it's exactly as good as the rest of your gear...so still waiting on the Phoenix which ships tomorrow I believe, but I'm very happy with how things are so far.


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *scootermafia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yep, the mental clock is ticking...it perfectly reproduces the music and it's exactly as good as the rest of your gear...so still waiting on the Phoenix which ships tomorrow I believe, but I'm very happy with how things are so far._

 

Good luck. Mine hasn't shipped for 3 days from the day he promised initially.


----------



## scootermafia

Yeah, he told me the 9th or the 12th, one or the other. He doesn't just get a new factory every day, so his stuff is usually on time.

 Time is ticking down on my Amarra demo. For $400 it's worth it - you won't get this sort of a quality increase from another $400 tweak like expensive vibration controlling spikes.


----------



## FallenAngel

So... does anybody have any measurements on output current and voltage swing of this amp with 32-40 Ohm headphone?


----------



## tosehee

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f5/aud...ml#post5787617

http://www.audio-gd.com/enweb/Phoenix/Phoenix-2.htm


----------



## FallenAngel

Wow, it really does plummet below 100R, guess it's mostly designed for higher impedance.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *FallenAngel* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wow, it really does plummet below 100R, guess it's mostly designed for higher impedance._

 

I think you may have missed some zeros in those numbers 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Look again or I don't understand what you are referring to. It's 1 Watt at 25 and 2.5 Watts at 62 ohms or something like that. I wouldn't call that anemic.

 Pretty much all my canz are low impedance. 25 -80 ohms or so.

 .


----------



## FallenAngel

Relatively speaking 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 If I see an amp which outputs considerably lower current at lower impedance than higher it means that something is funky. According to Ohms law, power should double when impedance is halved, when it doesn't, I have to look twice at why it was designed that way and what it can really do.


----------



## JamesL

Its plenty for driving headphones. 
 Though it's more common to see power increasing into lower impedance loads

 edt: nvm.. beat by fa


----------



## FallenAngel

Not just more common - it's expected until the amps becomes unstable. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Some definitely get out of Class-A to Class-AB or Class-B, but generally it means that the design simply doesn't act the same with different impedance loads. Of course it's not a perfect world so it's expected, but up to a point.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *FallenAngel* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Not just more common - it's expected until the amps becomes unstable. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Some definitely get out of Class-A to Class-AB or Class-B, but generally it means that the design simply doesn't act the same with different impedance loads. Of course it's not a perfect world so it's expected, but up to a point._

 

I asked that question before because it's not a typical amp ramp-up of output and never got an answer. I'm willing to wager that because the Ramp up goes up and down that it was done by design. It is not because this amp is cheap or poorly designed, I think most would agree there. Maybe I'll query Kingwa about this again. I'm still curious about the answer. I has no issues driving my D5000s or GS1000s. I would say the GS1000s exercise it pretty well, but there is still plenty of clean headroom on the dial. I listen LOUD at 30 out of 70 on the display. I imagine most would pipe in and say they never get about 15 or 18 with their Grados.

 .


----------



## FallenAngel

Grados are incredibly efficient, they need maybe 100mW, more thinking of something like K-1000 at 120 Ohm.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *FallenAngel* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Grados are incredibly efficient, they need maybe 100mW, more thinking of something like K-1000 at 120 Ohm._

 

I don't have a K-1000, but it's(Phoenix) rated output at 100 ohms is 3 watts. That should put it in somewhat exclusive territory.

 .


----------



## moonboy403

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *FallenAngel* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Grados are incredibly efficient, they need maybe 100mW, more thinking of something like K-1000 at 120 Ohm._

 

I did a brief comparison between the Phoenix and Audio Note Kit 1 with the K1000. You might have to dig back in this thread looking for it.

 I definitely preferred the Kit 1 with the K1000 even though the Phoenix has more than enough juice to power the K1000 according to specs of the Phoenix.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *moonboy403* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I did a brief comparison between the Phoenix and Audio Note Kit 1 with the K1000. You might have to dig back in this thread looking for it.

 I definitely preferred the Kit 1 with the K1000 even though the Phoenix has more than enough juice to power the K1000 according to specs of the Phoenix._

 

I didn't look that amp up the first time you posted about it. I did this time though, pretty interesting! Kinda expensive for a kit though!

 .


----------



## scootermafia

In other news, whipped up a 4 pin XLR to 3 pin XLR x 2 cable in 20 minutes flat (timed myself) and plugged my DT770s directly into the DAC8/Ref1. Ghetto Phoenix! It has plenty of power. It also proves my M3 rolls the treble slightly.


----------



## Charnwood

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I asked that question before because it's not a typical amp ramp-up of output and never got an answer. I'm willing to wager that because the Ramp up goes up and down that it was done by design. It is not because this amp is cheap or poorly designed, I think most would agree there. Maybe I'll query Kingwa about this again. I'm still curious about the answer. I has no issues driving my D5000s or GS1000s. I would say the GS1000s exercise it pretty well, but there is still plenty of clean headroom on the dial. I listen LOUD at 30 out of 70 on the display. I imagine most would pipe in and say they never get about 15 or 18 with their Grados.

 ._

 

Done to accomodate the K-1000's maybe?


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Charnwood* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Done to accomodate the K-1000's maybe?_

 

That would make sense.

 .


----------



## tosehee

When functioning as preamp, can it output to audio-gd poweramp with CAST? If not, is it possible to modify the Phoenix to add it as feature?


----------



## haloxt

Kingwa won't put CAST output on the phoenix even if you ask, so he doesn't cut into sales of his real preamps and it won't piss off prior preamp purchasers 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. Who knows though, maybe if you pay him extra he'll put CAST output on the phoenix but don't bet on it.


----------



## FallenAngel

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That would make sense._

 

Not really, I think it's a current limit as to not overheat.


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Kingwa won't put CAST output on the phoenix even if you ask, so he doesn't cut into sales of his real preamps and it won't piss off prior preamp purchasers 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. Who knows though, maybe if you pay him extra he'll put CAST output on the phoenix but don't bet on it._

 

So, the phoenix as preamp cannot output as CAST then.. 

 Hrm, I need to send him an email then.

 Thanks for confirming this.


----------



## soundlogic

Somewhat off topic, but I did a search, and was unable to get my answer...What method of payment have most of you used to purchase your Audio-gd gear...Paypal or Western Union, and if using Paypal are you sending as a "gift" to save the paypal charges?
 I'm ready to pull the trigger, but I am a little shy about the gift thing, and I have never used Western Union. Thanks in advance.


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *soundlogic* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Somewhat off topic, but I did a search, and was unable to get my answer...What method of payment have most of you used to purchase your Audio-gd gear...Paypal or Western Union, and if using Paypal are you sending as a "gift" to save the paypal charges?
 I'm ready to pull the trigger, but I am a little shy about the gift thing, and I have never used Western Union. Thanks in advance._

 

I used paypal and without gift. You can/should be able to save a few bucks using gift option


----------



## tosehee

Just received phoenix and I am having 1 minor issue. I was wondering if anyone is having the same issue. I put the volume at 20. After certain hours, the volume becomes very low itself. it's most like it's going to sleep mode or something. Only way to increase the volume as before is to turn the knob, thus increasing or decreasing the value.

 Anyone have similar issue?

 I searched the thread, but can't seem to find the similar thread. Sorry if this is a duplicate post.


----------



## The Monkey

Does this occur at the same time of day each day?


----------



## haloxt

I can trigger that every time I switch on a surge protector to turn on a fan connected to it, even though my phoenix is connected to a power conditioner (without voltage regulation), so I think it's just a built-in protection against power fluctuations. And just like you mentioned, the volume goes to like 1 until you raise or lower the volume then it goes back to normal.


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I can trigger that every time I switch on a surge protector to turn on a fan connected to it, even though my phoenix is connected to a power conditioner (without voltage regulation), so I think it's just a built-in protection against power fluctuations. And just like you mentioned, the volume goes to like 1 until you raise or lower the volume then it goes back to normal._

 

Do you hear a soft pop when this happens?

 I just listen to the music and this just occurred with a soft pop.


----------



## haloxt

I just tested it, yes there's a soft pop. What is causing it is probably something like your refrigerator turning on causing a fluctuation in the power.


----------



## punk_guy182

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *soundlogic* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Somewhat off topic, but I did a search, and was unable to get my answer...What method of payment have most of you used to purchase your Audio-gd gear...Paypal or Western Union, and if using Paypal are you sending as a "gift" to save the paypal charges?
 I'm ready to pull the trigger, but I am a little shy about the gift thing, and I have never used Western Union. Thanks in advance._

 


 I paid as a Paypal gift and I was only charged 5$ for fees.


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just tested it, yes there's a soft pop. What is causing it is probably something like your refrigerator turning on causing a fluctuation in the power._

 

There is no chance of overheating that would cause this, right?

 just being cautious here cuz it's hot as hell to touch.


----------



## Currawong

It gets very warm, yes. If you are going to stack the two boxes, put the volume/power/selector box on top. X2 what others have said about the volume thing likely being an issue with the power supply in your place.


----------



## ServinginEcuador

Power fluctuations are the most likely culprit. My unit would kick-off, go mute, and the only way to get it back was to turn the volume up or down a notch. Now, with the ExactPower units in place it hasn't done this once.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ServinginEcuador* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Power fluctuations are the most likely culprit. My unit would kick-off, go mute, and the only way to get it back was to turn the volume up or down a notch. Now, with the ExactPower units in place it hasn't done this once._

 

Strange! A lot of people have seen this but I've never heard this mentioned before unless I just missed it. I've also never seen this behavior on mine.

 .


----------



## ServinginEcuador

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Strange! A lot of people have seen this but I've never heard this mentioned before unless I just missed it. I've also never seen this behavior on mine.

 ._

 

Les,

 I didn't post about it because it happened infrequently, and with decreasing intervals. Once it stopped I simply didn't think about it. Plus, about the time I went to using the CAST cables from the Ref1 I got the ExactPower, and didn't put this together until it was mentioned here. I first thought that using the CAST inputs made the change, but discarded that working theory later.


----------



## tosehee

I will have to look into the power condition then. Thanks for prompt reply.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Strange! A lot of people have seen this but I've never heard this mentioned before unless I just missed it. I've also never seen this behavior on mine.

 ._

 

Nor have I on mine. What I have noticed however is that when I turn the DAC off or reset it and then turn it back on, it sends a signal to the amp through CAST which mutes the amp. The amp won't play music unless I turn the volume knob one click in either direction, and then it goes back to the level it was at.

 And Curra, the power supply doesn't get "very warm". Like tosehee said, it gets very hot. I don't even keep mine stacked anymore, just side by side. It gets much much hotter than the Ref1. Only the bottom of the Ref1 gets as hot as the bottom of the Phoenix, but the top of the Phoenix (power supply) gets almost as hot. The top of the Ref1 is an ice cube in comparison. At least this is the case with my unit. The bottom of both are so hot they will burn your fingers if you keep them there for more than a few seconds. I couldn't hold my fingers to the underside for more than 3 or 4 seconds.

 My PS Audio Power Plant Premier will be here mid next week I hope, so I'm excited to see how much the performance improves. If it makes my system always sound like it does at 2 a.m. - 4 a.m., I'll be thrilled. And my Logitech Transporter and audio rack will be here tomorrow.


----------



## atothex

Thread too big... Anyone compare it to like a balanced M3 or CKKIII or Dynalo yet?


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_<<SNIP>>

 And Curra, the power supply doesn't get "very warm". Like tosehee said, it gets very hot. I don't even keep mine stacked anymore, just side by side. It gets much much hotter than the Ref1. Only the bottom of the Ref1 gets as hot as the bottom of the Phoenix, but the top of the Phoenix (power supply) gets almost as hot. The top of the Ref1 is an ice cube in comparison. At least this is the case with my unit. The bottom of both are so hot they will burn your fingers if you keep them there for more than a few seconds. I couldn't hold my fingers to the underside for more than 3 or 4 seconds.
_

 

You must be a little more sensitive than the rest of us, might be a California thing 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I have 2 Phoenix in my possession presently. They both run the same temp, on the bottom of the case at it's hottest point it is 117F. The top is 107F. This is in a house with the ambient temp about 78F. I just put my hand under the power supply and left it there for a minute. Actually felt pretty good! Hot tubs go around 104-110F. I know you guys got hot tubs out there in Cali! 

 I don't suppose you have an infrared thermometer? 

 .


----------



## scootermafia

2 Phoenix...but why?


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Nor have I on mine. What I have noticed however is that when I turn the DAC off or reset it and then turn it back on, it sends a signal to the amp through CAST which mutes the amp. The amp won't play music unless I turn the volume knob one click in either direction, and then it goes back to the level it was at._

 

Well, I didn't reset or restart the RE1, so while it's similar result, but not the same I believe.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_And Curra, the power supply doesn't get "very warm". Like tosehee said, it gets very hot. I don't even keep mine stacked anymore, just side by side. It gets much much hotter than the Ref1. Only the bottom of the Ref1 gets as hot as the bottom of the Phoenix, but the top of the Phoenix (power supply) gets almost as hot. The top of the Ref1 is an ice cube in comparison. At least this is the case with my unit. The bottom of both are so hot they will burn your fingers if you keep them there for more than a few seconds. I couldn't hold my fingers to the underside for more than 3 or 4 seconds._

 

I can attest to this. RE1 temperature is cold compared to PSU temperature off of Phoenix. The temperature bothers me a bit, but it's okay as long as it doesn't hinder the longevity of the product,


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You must be a little more sensitive than the rest of us, might be a California thing 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I have 2 Phoenix in my possession presently. They both run the same temp, on the bottom of the case at it's hottest point it is 117F. The top is 107F. This is in a house with the ambient temp about 78F. I just put my hand under the power supply and left it there for a minute. Actually felt pretty good! Hot tubs go around 104-110F. I know you guys got hot tubs out there in Cali! 

 I don't suppose you have an infrared thermometer? 

 ._

 

 The temperature on the bottom of PSU is not as hot as the temperature on the top. I wonder why you observed different results. The ambient temperature of my house is around 80F however. Sometimes, go little above up to 82. But, I do not think that makes up such a drastic difference. 

 I can tell you that if I keep touching the top of PSU for more than 10 sec, it becomes very uncomfortable. Not WARM. It's not burning degree, but definitely not comfortable to touch either.


----------



## sandchak

Tosehee, are you sure you haven't placed your Phoenix PSU upside down??..
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I don't have a Phoenix (yet..) but by looking at the design, it looks like the power regulators are heat sinked at the bottom of the PSU chassis (same as REF1).. so that is where the heat should be more.. (correct me if I am wrong).


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sandchak* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Tosehee, are you sure you haven't placed your Phoenix PSU upside down??..
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I don't have a Phoenix (yet..) but by looking at the design, it looks like the power regulators are heat sinked at the bottom of the PSU chassis (same as REF1).. so that is where the heat should be more.. (correct me if I am wrong)._

 

I got the selector on the left and volume on the right. So, it's definitely not upside down. It's exactly as pictured in the audio-gd website. 

 I do not know where the heat sink is, but if you are right. I guess the bottom could be even hotter than the top.. lol.


----------



## sandchak

Sorry, I meant the power regulators are bolted/screwed at the bottom of the chassis with thermal compound and there is no heat sink as such.

 Anyway, what are your initial impressions about REF1/Phoenix combo, even though you are listening through RCA and not CAST?


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sandchak* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sorry, I meant the power regulators are bolted/screwed at the bottom of the chassis with thermal compound and there is no heat sink as such.

 Anyway, what are your initial impressions about REF1/Phoenix combo, even though you are listening through RCA and not CAST?_

 

Well, like you said, it's too early to give any kinda objective impression on it since I just got it. 

 I can tell you about other things though. 

 The packaging was superb. I was little worried with several of you informing some incidents. None of that happened to me. It was well packaged with no loose parts.

 There are some scratches on top of both RE1 and Phoenix. Since it's black, I think it's more apparent to notice. But, it doesn't bother me whole lot.

 As for sound, let's just say that I am not complaining too much at this point. There are a few things that bother me (temperature/heat, power issue (but that's my issue, not audio-gd), but the sound and everything else seems to make up for it. Again, I will reserve my impression until I get a CAST and with some 100+ hours of burn-in period.

 Regards


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *scootermafia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_2 Phoenix...but why?_

 

Everybody needs One in Silver and One in Black!

 Actually I have Bob's, Kingwa asked me to look over it for issues. I'm letting it burn in presently. I'll go over what I found with PIX next week.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tosehee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The temperature on the bottom of PSU is not as hot as the temperature on the top. I wonder why you observed different results. The ambient temperature of my house is around 80F however. Sometimes, go little above up to 82. But, I do not think that makes up such a drastic difference. 

 I can tell you that if I keep touching the top of PSU for more than 10 sec, it becomes very uncomfortable. Not WARM. It's not burning degree, but definitely not comfortable to touch either._

 

You are incorrect here. I have shot every square inch of the inside and outside of the Boxes with an IR thermometer. If yours is hotter on the top of the PSU than the bottom, there is something seriously wrong with it, I'm not kidding. That would mean that the chimney heat sink would be burning the board up for that much convective heat to pile up on the top plate making it hotter than the bottom. Please don't post guesses or incorrect info. It causes these threads to go crazy sometimes on a Tangent that is untrue.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tosehee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_<<SNIP>>

*There are some scratches on top of both RE1 and Phoenix. Since it's black, I think it's more apparent to notice. But, it doesn't bother me whole lot.
*
 <<SNIP>>_

 

These scratches and what happened to Bob's Phoenix shows Kingwa still has MAJOR QC issues. When I post the PIX of Bob's Phoenix, you'll see what I'm talking about.

 .


----------



## tosehee

I wouldn't call it untrue, but you are right. I do not have a IR thermometer. I am only checking with my hands. So, it may not be as accurate as you'd want it to be. But, I can definitely tell what's hotter and what's not.

 I will have to investigate and ask Kingwa what he thinks of it. If there really is an issue with the way the heat should dissipate on my box, It needs to be looked at.

 Also, I believe everyone has their own version of what's considered 'hot' and 'warm'. I think the heat/temperature on the Phoenix is in hot region while you could consider that little above warm. In any rate, it isn't my concern as long as it doesn't cause the product to malfunction or break, and I got that from previous threads.


----------



## scootermafia

I have a small, quiet fan trained on my Ref1/DAC8. It never gets too hot. Also, use your house's airconditioning. It does matter.


----------



## IPodPJ

Wouldn't it just be nice for once if we could receive an Audio-gd product and say "It's perfect in every way!" No scratches, no stickers, no faulty switches, no defects, no loose screws, shipping when he says he will, etc. etc. etc.


----------



## h.rav

^ 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Kingwa could have easily addressed those issued if he wanted to. Apparently, he doesn't want to. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 There are a lot of minor imperfections in my Audio-GD DAC. His product sounds good, that's the main reason why I bought his product. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'll be traveling China in Jan '10, I'm going to ask him if I could visit his company.


----------



## sandchak

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *h.rav* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 I'll be traveling China in Jan '10, I'm going to ask him if I could visit his company. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

what I have been told is that the new factory of A-GD will have a couple of rooms where International customers can stay overnight free of charge !!.. maybe audition all night !!..
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I agree A-GD needs to tighten up minor (can be irritating to customers though) QC problems - hopefully Kingwa will look into it more seriously in the new setup. I am sure these issues would have hurt him much if his gears weren't very good and aggressively priced.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *h.rav* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_^ 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Kingwa could have easily addressed those issued if he wanted to. Apparently, he doesn't want to. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 There are a lot of minor imperfections in my Audio-GD DAC. His product sounds good, that's the main reason why I bought his product. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'll be traveling China in Jan '10, I'm going to ask him if I could visit his company. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Shoot some PIX!

 .


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *scootermafia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have a small, quiet fan trained on my Ref1/DAC8. It never gets too hot. Also, use your house's airconditioning. It does matter._

 

DITTO. They need some air movement around them. I had a ceiling fan in my previous office and if it was not running, the REF1 went up about 8-10F. Just a simple low RPM ceiling fan made a great difference both to the REF1 and the Phoenix.


----------



## scootermafia

Yeah, it's just that the hot air builds up between components, you get heat soak, basically a tiny bit of fan goes a long way. I guarantee if you get a $5 fan at walgreens and train it on your audioGD stack you will not have any heat building up. Perhaps it's drafty in Kingwa's test zone. It's not surprising that components with chassis sinked parts get hot.


----------



## scootermafia

Oh snap...sleepover at Kingwa's


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wouldn't it just be nice for once if we could receive an Audio-gd product and say "It's perfect in every way!" No scratches, no stickers, no faulty switches, no defects, no loose screws, shipping when he says he will, etc. etc. etc. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I can safely say this....if the sticker bit was left out 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I guess I'm just lucky.

 Peete.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *scootermafia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yeah, it's just that the hot air builds up between components, you get heat soak, basically a tiny bit of fan goes a long way. I guarantee if you get a $5 fan at walgreens and train it on your audioGD stack you will not have any heat building up. Perhaps it's drafty in Kingwa's test zone. It's not surprising that components with chassis sinked parts get hot._

 

Exactly, just some movement and some space around the gear. Not even a lot of movement of air, just some, IME.

 .


----------



## IPodPJ

Oh my.... These 100 ohm resistance adaptors that Steve from Q-Audio made for me are incredible with the HD800 and the Phoenix. I had him get Switchcraft connectors and Mills resistors. The specs are in the cable thread back when we were discussing it. All the midbass and bass that was lacking is back, and it's incredible!! Anyone who owns the HD800 and the Phoenix absolutely must either get these adaptors or hardwire these Mills resistors into the amp itself. The parts cost including shipping was about $75. Steve has posted instructions with pictures on how you can make these.

 I'm going to let the amp warm up and the resistors burn in some, but my initial impressions are that they are just incredible and EXACTLY what the HD800 need with this amp. At this point I can't hear that they are lessening any of the treble but if anything, everything is smoother and fuller -- it sounds a lot more like a tube amp in that regard but with all the detail of solid state.

 I won't even get into how awesome a guy Steve is, but he is one of the most kind people I have ever had the pleasure of dealing with on Head-Fi.

 Now I have to unpack and install my new Transporter and assemble my audio rack.

 FYI, I have been building my system around the HD800 so I am specifically tailoring everything for them. But this is just magnificent.


----------



## haloxt

Does more resistance really add more fullness? I think I remember my 75 ohm headphones had more fullness than 40 ohm ones and if more resistance can increase fullness maybe I'll try it.

 Don't injure yourself assembling the rack 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 and make sure you look at the vertical strip of wood that goes on the back of the rack and match up the screws, only some of the tiers have the screw holes and have to be placed in particular places.


----------



## scootermafia

Would not be hard to integrate the Mills resistors into the 4-pin XLR plug. I don't want to terminate my future HD800 cable when I build it next week with $200 worth of clunky ass super pricy 3 pins. I'm going to start with a 4 pin before I build any seriously exotic stuff. All I need to do is trim down the leads on the Mills resistor if I go with that brand, and solder one end to the left and right line pins inside the XLR plug, then connect the wires to them. Then leave the ground wires as is. It's about the easiest mod ever. So, you added 100 ohm to the cans?


----------



## scootermafia

Ok, ordered the 5W 100ohm Mills wire wound resistors. They are very nice, for sure. They also cost $2.50 each. Expensive for resistors, but a bargain priced mod overall. You just put it between the XLR plug's solder cup for the positive wire, and the positive wire end itself. That seems to be smarter than hard installing it inside the phoenix since it may not benefit every can, unless you want to only use HD800 forever.


----------



## Currawong

Scooter: You're another person who needs to learn to use the "Edit" key instead of posting twice. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I was feeling today, listening to "Kind of Blue" that my rig is every so slightly too aggressive, as if tubes are needed in the mix somewhere. I'm also pondering experimenting with rhodium power plugs and sockets.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Does more resistance really add more fullness? I think I remember my 75 ohm headphones had more fullness than 40 ohm ones and if more resistance can increase fullness maybe I'll try it.

 Don't injure yourself assembling the rack 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 and make sure you look at the vertical strip of wood that goes on the back of the rack and match up the screws, only some of the tiers have the screw holes and have to be placed in particular places._

 

Minutes to assemble??? MINUTES TO ASSEMBLE??? ARE THEY ON CRACK!?!?! It took me over 4 hours to do it!!! I won't even go into the details of every little step you have to do to level the shelves on spikes, adjust the washers numerous times, etc. And they were missing foam pads and a nut. But it's a beautiful shelf.

 Guys, I am also eventually going to try 50 ohm and 75 ohm adapters to find out which ones work best. I will also try the nude Vishay ones, too. There are many variables but just the sheer awesomeness coming from the HD800 now, it sounds as full as tower speakers. It's really something I never expected to gain from adding 100 ohm of resistance to the Phoenix/HD800. I can't wait for you to hear it. I played some test tracks from the Sony Mobile Xplod system Disc... it was like I had a subwoofer on my head now. And then I hooked up the Transporter and that just took it to a level BEYOND. What an awesome piece of kit the Transporter is. I haven't tried it with the analog outs yet and probably won't get to for a few days until I put everything on the rack, which I can't do until I get my PPP on Wednesday. I lack all the power outlets needed for the gear to be that close together, and I don't have 10 foot long power cords.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *scootermafia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ok, ordered the 5W 100ohm Mills wire wound resistors. They are very nice, for sure. They also cost $2.50 each. Expensive for resistors, but a bargain priced mod overall. You just put it between the XLR plug's solder cup for the positive wire, and the positive wire end itself. That seems to be smarter than hard installing it inside the phoenix since it may not benefit every can, unless you want to only use HD800 forever._

 

Did you read the thread in the cable forum, specifically where Steve gave instructions on how to do this? You do not order 100 ohm resistors. You order 50 ohm resistors since you have one on each + and -. Read this whole thread:

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f21/ca...u-make-437257/


----------



## scootermafia

Ah, right, so you want 100 ohms total, 50 before it hits the driver, and another 50 after leaving the driver. I suppose that makes sense. I had handmade switch them to 50 ohm, no harm done. Thanks for the heads up, been a while since I looked at your other thread and I forgot what was on it.

 You could try 100s and go for 200 ohms, who the hell knows. The Phoenix is so monstrously powerful according to its spec sheet, I'm sure it would be fine. You'd have to roll resistors to figure out which value works best, I leave this up to you. If 50s are such a big improvement, then that's what I'm going with. I love my HD800s, only had them a day, and I can tell they'll sound even better when the Phoenix comes, they break in, and I recable them.


----------



## Bob Jones

h.rav
 Going to China and checking Kingwa's operations,pretty neat.
 How about Kingwa comming here to a large head-fi meet.I would love to hear his impressions of others equipment.AND,what He might get out of it.


----------



## The Monkey

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bob Jones* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_h.rav
 Going to China and checking Kingwa's operations,pretty neat.
 How about Kingwa comming here to a large head-fi meet.I would love to hear his impressions of others equipment.AND,what He might get out of it._

 

I'd like to see Kingwa become a sponsor with a subforum on Head-Fi.


----------



## sandchak

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *The Monkey* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'd like to see Kingwa become a sponsor with a subforum on Head-Fi._

 

As far as I know, he has been postponing the sponsorship for a while, last I heard - he said after the new factory is opened ( so that he has enough time to interact with forum members), so I guess its going to be anytime now.


----------



## mopps

I've heard the HD 800 on a beyerdynamic A1, an amp with 'genuine' 100 ohms. To me it sounded crap: heavy mid-bass/lower-mids hump and killing sibilants. I think, the HD 800 feels better with ~0 ohms.


----------



## Audio-Omega

Has anyone compared Phoenix with Roc ?


----------



## The Monkey

So when is kingwa going to get serious and make a bang-for-the-buck 'stat amp?


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *The Monkey* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So when is kingwa going to get serious and make a bang-for-the-buck 'stat amp?_

 

I asked him about that. I'm not totally sure of the response but he didn't seem Uber interested. Maybe he just doesn't see the market. Send him a PM! I would really like to see what he comes up with there. I am looking also. I have all the BH stuff I'm looking over to build a BH, but I'm skeered!

 We need to let him know there is a market!

 .


----------



## gjkphd

Hey guys,
 I need some help. My PHoenix arrived yesterday. 2 days from Hong Kong to Miami, that was good. I got it hooked up today and I'm not getting any sound out of the headphone jacks, either single ended or 4 prong balance. I checked all the connections. I then tried it as a pre amp running into my other headphone amp and that does work, both channels but there's dead silence out of the headphone jacks. I tried two different inputs, btw. Other than contacting King Wa any advice or suggestions. thanks


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gjkphd* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hey guys,
 I need some help. My PHoenix arrived yesterday. 2 days from Hong Kong to Miami, that was good. I got it hooked up today and I'm not getting any sound out of the headphone jacks, either single ended or 4 prong balance. I checked all the connections. I then tried it as a pre amp running into my other headphone amp and that does work, both channels but there's dead silence out of the headphone jacks. I tried two different inputs, btw. Other than contacting King Wa any advice or suggestions. thanks_

 

Have you noticed and used the preamp button?

 .


----------



## gjkphd

thanks Les, you're the man. I noticed the pre amp switch but assumed it needed to be on to function as pre amp or headphone amp. Hope others read this and don't make the same ass-umption.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gjkphd* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_thanks Les, you're the man. I noticed the pre amp switch but assumed it needed to be on to function as pre amp or headphone amp. Hope others read this and don't make the same ass-umption._

 

Kingwa needs to do a manual or FAQ about his products on his website. Glad it worked out for ya!

 .


----------



## moonboy403

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gjkphd* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_thanks Les, you're the man. I noticed the pre amp switch but assumed it needed to be on to function as pre amp or headphone amp. Hope others read this and don't make the same ass-umption._

 

The Phoenix and W5000 makes a wonderful pairing. Let me know how the Phoenix compares to the HA-02 when paired with the W5000.


----------



## scootermafia

Les saves the day.


----------



## gjkphd

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *moonboy403* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The Phoenix and W5000 makes a wonderful pairing. Let me know how the Phoenix compares to the HA-02 when paired with the W5000._

 

will do, I'm also curious to compare the W5000, which I recently recabled to balanced, balanced vs unbalanced via the balanced to unbalanced adapter cable I have


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Kingwa needs to do a manual or FAQ about his products on his website. Glad it worked out for ya!

 ._

 

I've offered to do that for him and re-do his entire website context in proper English, in trade for gear. He declined.


----------



## IPodPJ

An update on the adapters: They are definitely the way to go, but I notice a slight decrease in transparency, not much, but it's noticeable... so I would like to try some nude Vishay resistors. I also feel that 100 ohm may be just a tad too much (although I'm really enjoying it and music has never been so pleasant to listen to). I think a 75 ohm adapter might work a tad better, but I won't know of sure until I have an adapter made with those specs. Once I find the perfect balance (and 100 just might be the perfect balance, but I need to compare with others to be sure) I will have it hardwired into the amp. Every extra connection you make is one more loss in detail. But hey, I'm letting these guys burn in so that will help too.

 I also think many of the resistors and caps in the amp itself could be replaced with better ones to gain every last ounce of performance out of this amp. It is definitely a great amp but I feel it could use some more tuning and adjusting, at least for use with the HD800 which is what I've designed my system around.

 What I can say is that if I have to sacrifice a little transparency (3% - 5%) for this full bodied sound, it's a no brainer. I'll take this any day. It may not be sacrificing any transparency, it could just be that the full bodied sound is just blocking me from hearing the thinner sound I'm used to without the adapter. I can't believe how thin the Phoenix makes the HD800 sound on its own. When you compare the two, without the adapter you'll say "There's no midbass, bass or body to the music."


----------



## soundlogic

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ I can't believe how thin the Phoenix makes the HD800 sound on its own. When you compare the two, without the adapter you'll say "There's no midbass, bass or body to the music."_

 

In all due respect to all who have paired the HD800 with the Phoenix,
 I could not agree with the above quote more.
 I heard this pairing, in several member's rigs at the L.A. mini-meet, and wanted to like it, based on ALL the RAVING, but came away un-impressed.
 I look forward to the opportunity to hear the 800's with the adapter.


----------



## Audio-Omega

Do you guys prefer 3 pin or 4 pin xlr with your Phoenix ?


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Audio-Omega* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Do you guys prefer 3 pin or 4 pin xlr with your Phoenix ?_

 

I originally was doing my phones in 3 pin. the idea being it was more prevalent. Then I did one in 4 pin and now want to reterm my 3 pins as 4 pins. It is lighter and much easier to work with. You need two adapters made. 1) a 4 pin to 3 pin adapter, 2) a 4 pin to 1/4" adapter.

 We should all just switch to 4 pin and be done with it IMHO.

 .


----------



## lmswjm

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I originally was doing my phones in 3 pin. the idea being it was more prevalent. Then I did one in 4 pin and now want to reterm my 3 pins as 4 pins. It is lighter and much easier to work with. You need two adapters made. 1) a 4 pin to 3 pin adapter, 2) a 4 pin to 1/4" adapter.

 We should all just switch to 4 pin and be done with it IMHO.

 ._

 

X2


----------



## haloxt

Are mini-xlr worse than xlr for sq? If not maybe it should be put on headphone amps.

 Here's a picture of a mini-xlr used on headphones so you can see it's really small ^^ if it replaces 3.5mm TRS maybe we'll see balanced mp3 players in the future 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.

http://images.lilypix.com/albums/use...00_miniXLR.jpg


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Are mini-xlr worse than xlr for sq? If not maybe it should be put on headphone amps.

 Here's a picture of a mini-xlr used on headphones so you can see it's really small ^^ if it replaces 3.5mm TRS maybe we'll see balanced mp3 players in the future 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.

http://images.lilypix.com/albums/use...00_miniXLR.jpg_

 

Another good idea!

 .


----------



## IPodPJ

I need your guys' help. It involves my Audio-gd gear, I just don't know which piece or even if that's the issue.

 Last night I'm listening to music and every once in awhile (like every 2 minutes) there is a split second skip in the music. I'm thinking "oh s***, what now..? <sigh>" I figured it had to be my Transporter because that was my newest component. I disconnected it and replaced it with the Squeezebox. Still occurred. So I tried removing the new adaptors. Nope, problem's still there. That leaves me with my Audio-gd Ref1 and Phoenix.

 Since I was standing right next to them and the A/C wall unit was blasting right on me, I turned the power down a notch.. BINGO. The glitch came back. I turned the low/high dial again. BINGO. It happened again. I turned the power off on the unit. Same thing. It's causing a brief, split-second break in the music, and it does it on its own without me touching the switch. At least I hope this is what's causing the one that happens every 2 minutes. And the A/C wall unit is on its own, individual circuit and no gear is connected to it.

 But why now? Why all of a sudden is it doing this? It hasn't EVER done this before. Could there be a defect in the A/C unit which seems to be working perfectly? Could there be a short in one of the Audio-gd components causing this? I know it's not my SB or Transporter, or the new adapters. But I can't try my Ref1 without the Phoenix or vice versa... nothing to connect them each to.

 Any ideas, guys? Thanks.

 Oh, and I will be getting my PS Audio Power Plant Premier on Wednesday. Could that solve the problem if nothing else can?


----------



## scootermafia

What happens if you turn your air conditioning all the way off and leave it off? If it happens without the AC being on then the AC is not the cause.


----------



## IPodPJ

I didn't have a chance to listen long enough without the AC off because it was so late at night, but when the AC was off I didn't hear any problems for the short time I was listening.

 But the A/C unit works fine and is blowing out cold air, so I just couldn't imagine an issue with that. I was thinking that maybe leaving this Audio-gd gear on for days in a row caused something bad to happen.


----------



## scootermafia

Yeah, could be your building wiring just can't handle both the AC and all that gear, who knows. If it only causes problems when the AC unit is on, then that could be it. Doesn't hurt to train a fan on your audiogd gear so it doesn't get hot.


----------



## Yikes

It would be a simple matter to notice if it happens when your AC's compressor cycles on. I have experienced something similar with my PC Music Server, but it wasn't an AC Power issue (Which is what you have if your Air Conditioner is causing the problem). I was using an older NEC LCD monitor that was somehow feeding a spike back through the VGA cable and causing the digital out to Hiccup. The only real indication that it was the NEC monitor was that I replaced everything else and the Hiccuping continued, then when I replaced the Monitor the problem disappeared.

 Are you sure that it's not a Problem with your PC that is driving the Logictech pieces?


----------



## IPodPJ

Sorry, I posted this in the wrong thread. It should have been in the REF1 thread.

 It's got nothing to do with the A/C. It's the DAC. I opened it up and disconnected the NOS/OS and Reset switches. The clicking is still there and it still goes out of phase. And what's really awful is that if I turn the A/C on, sometimes the DAC goes back in phase. So there is some kind of power/grounding problem with the REF1. Kingwa needs to send me a replacement unit.

 And Yikes,
 No, it's certainly not a problem with the PC. My PS Audio DL3 always worked fine. This DAC hasn't worked properly since day 1 and now it's just getting worse with the clicking issue.

 I plugged the Transporter's analog outputs into the amp and messed with the AC. No drop in sound.
 The transporter is plugged into a different outlet than the amp and DAC so I wanted to see if it's just the outlet.
 So I plugged my power strip into the outlet that the Transporter was plugged into and then plugged the Transporter
 and the Ref 1 into the power strip. The drop in sound came back.


----------



## lmswjm

I'm enjoying the crap out of the CD7/RE1/Phoenix combo with the D7000's (See RE1 post).

 I have had a few issues with the Phoenix. I've experienced the "clicking / pulsing" in the right channel intermittently that's been reported before. It's picked up by the phones and tweeter. It depends on the volume slope used and / or volume setting. Kingwa says it's not the data cable, and is "testing" for a possible explanation. Currently it has not been an issue at all, but of course that could change. One other thing is when I move my set-up, I sometimes have a hard time getting the Phoenix to work. I have to screw around with the data cable and volume control to eventually get sound back with no rhyme or reason. Again, it is currently functioning perfectly. The last thing is that the blue LED pre-amp indicating lamp has stopped working. I agreed to replace it myself. He is sending the LED and a replacement for a cracked CD7 foot.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *lmswjm* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm enjoying the crap out of the CD7/RE1/Phoenix combo with the D7000's (See RE1 post).

 I have had a few issues with the Phoenix. I've experienced the "clicking / pulsing" in the right channel intermittently that's been reported before. It's picked up by the phones and tweeter. It depends on the volume slope used and / or volume setting. Kingwa says it's not the data cable, and is "testing" for a possible explanation. Currently it has not been an issue at all, but of course that could change. One other thing is when I move my set-up, I sometimes have a hard time getting the Phoenix to work. I have to screw around with the data cable and volume control to eventually get sound back with no rhyme or reason. Again, it is currently functioning perfectly. The last thing is that the blue LED pre-amp indicating lamp has stopped working. I agreed to replace it myself. He is sending the LED and a replacement for a cracked CD7 foot._

 

It's interesting that it quits working at times. If you see a pattern, let us know. This may be what plagued Bob's Phoenix. Since I've had it, it's been perfect.

 .


----------



## seacard

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I can't believe how thin the Phoenix makes the HD800 sound on its own. When you compare the two, without the adapter you'll say "There's no midbass, bass or body to the music."_

 

PJ, would still say that even without the adapter, and despite sounding thin with no midbass, bass, or body to the music, the Phoenix blows the Phonitor away, which in turn blows all other headphone amps away? I haven't heard the Phoenitor, but from that description it sounds like, perhaps, the worst piece of audio equipment ever made.


----------



## tosehee

Sounds so weird.. You have this much trouble, but you still the crap out of Audio-gd gears...

 Somewhat paradoxical if you ask me.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *lmswjm* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm enjoying the crap out of the CD7/RE1/Phoenix combo with the D7000's (See RE1 post).

 I have had a few issues with the Phoenix. I've experienced the "clicking / pulsing" in the right channel intermittently that's been reported before. It's picked up by the phones and tweeter. It depends on the volume slope used and / or volume setting. Kingwa says it's not the data cable, and is "testing" for a possible explanation. Currently it has not been an issue at all, but of course that could change. One other thing is when I move my set-up, I sometimes have a hard time getting the Phoenix to work. I have to screw around with the data cable and volume control to eventually get sound back with no rhyme or reason. Again, it is currently functioning perfectly. The last thing is that the blue LED pre-amp indicating lamp has stopped working. I agreed to replace it myself. He is sending the LED and a replacement for a cracked CD7 foot._


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *seacard* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_PJ, would still say that even without the adapter, and despite sounding thin with no midbass, bass, or body to the music, the Phoenix blows the Phonitor away, which in turn blows all other headphone amps away? I haven't heard the Phoenitor, but from that description it sounds like, perhaps, the worst piece of audio equipment ever made._

 

Heh, are we using the additive, the transitive, or the distributive property here.

 .


----------



## tosehee

As my system is burning in, I experience something interesting. I wanted to ask if others experience the same.

 When I first started burning and doing some listening, I put the volume on around 22 to 25, depending mostly on the music selections. After 3 or so days of burning in, it seems that the volume is actually louder at 22 or 25. I can't listen to them as they are too loud to listen at that volume. 

 It seems almost like that as it burns in, it seems to increase the volume level somehow???

 Am I on high on drug or are there anyone experiencing or -ed similar situation?

 By the way, there is no change in the system. Same cable, same power cord, exactly same as I received last week Thursday.


----------



## lmswjm

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tosehee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sounds so weird.. You have this much trouble, but you still the crap out of Audio-gd gears...

 Somewhat paradoxical if you ask me._

 

IMO, the problems I mention are small comparitively, and are fairly inconsequential to the amazing audio experience provided. I was only being thorough so others would have a complete picture of the whole story. I enjoy these products everyday without major disruption. The clicking is gone now, and at it's worst, was not audible during music play. The Phoenix has been operating flawlessly everyday for the last week. I don't know about you, but it has been my experience that there are usually some issues that need to be dealt with in audio in general when building a hi-fi or pro-audio system.


----------



## lmswjm

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tosehee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_As my system is burning in, I experience something interesting. I wanted to ask if others experience the same.

 When I first started burning and doing some listening, I put the volume on around 22 to 25, depending mostly on the music selections. After 3 or so days of burning in, it seems that the volume is actually louder at 22 or 25. I can't listen to them as they are too loud to listen at that volume. 

 It seems almost like that as it burns in, it seems to increase the volume level somehow???

 Am I on high on drug or are there anyone experiencing or -ed similar situation?

 By the way, there is no change in the system. Same cable, same power cord, exactly same as I received last week Thursday._

 

I too find that over time, I am listening at lower volume levels. It seems that as the system burns in, the music is so effortlessly ever-present, and easier to hear that I find myself turning the volume down.


----------



## Currawong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *lmswjm* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm enjoying the crap out of the CD7/RE1/Phoenix combo with the D7000's (See RE1 post).

 I have had a few issues with the Phoenix. I've experienced the "clicking / pulsing" in the right channel intermittently that's been reported before. It's picked up by the phones and tweeter. It depends on the volume slope used and / or volume setting. Kingwa says it's not the data cable, and is "testing" for a possible explanation. Currently it has not been an issue at all, but of course that could change. One other thing is when I move my set-up, I sometimes have a hard time getting the Phoenix to work. I have to screw around with the data cable and volume control to eventually get sound back with no rhyme or reason. Again, it is currently functioning perfectly. The last thing is that the blue LED pre-amp indicating lamp has stopped working. I agreed to replace it myself. He is sending the LED and a replacement for a cracked CD7 foot._

 

I'm likely going to replace the power (DC) sockets, plugs and cables, as well as the CAST connectors. For a high-end amp, they should be better quality. The central plastic bits of the power connectors are a bit loose and the CAST connector pins are also loose, which isn't good, IMO, for SQ. I'm thinking of Japanese parts for the DC, and Switchcraft Mini XLR for the CAST, though I'm not sure if they'll fit in the same hole as the cast connectors.


----------



## haloxt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tosehee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_As my system is burning in, I experience something interesting. I wanted to ask if others experience the same.

 When I first started burning and doing some listening, I put the volume on around 22 to 25, depending mostly on the music selections. After 3 or so days of burning in, it seems that the volume is actually louder at 22 or 25. I can't listen to them as they are too loud to listen at that volume. 

 It seems almost like that as it burns in, it seems to increase the volume level somehow???

 Am I on high on drug or are there anyone experiencing or -ed similar situation?

 By the way, there is no change in the system. Same cable, same power cord, exactly same as I received last week Thursday._

 

Compass dac has more impact than claro halo sound card, and dac19mk3 has more impact than compass dac, and with the dac19mk3 it seems like volume gets quite a bit more intense when there's many layers of instruments so I have to adjust the volume based on that. Hard to get a feel of the volume of music now since things are not all 2-D and all in one spot now.


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *lmswjm* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I too find that over time, I am listening at lower volume levels. It seems that as the system burns in, the music is so effortlessly ever-present, and easier to hear that I find myself turning the volume down._

 

It's slightly different than what I observe. I agree that the tones and instruments and etc are easier to identify as it burns in. However, i am referring to is actual output level of volume increased over time.

 I could hear the sound out of headphone from distance at 20. With same volume now, the sound is much louder from the same distance.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tosehee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It's slightly different than what I observe. I agree that the tones and instruments and etc are easier to identify as it burns in. However, i am referring to is actual output level of volume increased over time.

 I could hear the sound out of headphone from distance at 20. With same volume now, the sound is much louder from the same distance._

 

Are you sure you haven't changed your 70/99 volume level setting?


----------



## IPodPJ

By the way, I forgot to mention -- I asked Kingwa quite some time back if you could plug your headphones into the back of the amp, into the preamp output. He said yes, even though there is much more impedance back there. You would also need a female to female XLR adaptor. I wonder what the result would be.


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Are you sure you haven't changed your 70/99 volume level setting?_

 

No. same 99 setting.


----------



## lmswjm

PJ,
 I was wondering: What would the impedance be on the HD800's if you factored your adapters into the equation? It seems like I might have liked the 800's better this way.
 The other thing you mentioned about plugging your phones directly into Phoenix XLR outs is intriguing. I once queried a designer on the thought of using a 2 ch. proaudio preamp secondarily as a headamp. He said it could work if the phones were a close match with the impedance of the outputs which happened to be 300 ohms on his design. He said it might fry a phone with a lower value. Does anyone know the specs on the Phoenix? You potentially could be getting better sound this way.


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *lmswjm* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_PJ,
 I was wondering: What would the impedance be on the HD800's if you factored your adapters into the equation? It seems like I might have liked the 800's better this way.
 The other thing you mentioned about plugging your phones directly into Phoenix XLR outs is intriguing. I once queried a designer on the thought of using a 2 ch. proaudio preamp secondarily as a headamp. He said it could work if the phones were a close match with the impedance of the outputs which happened to be 300 ohms on his design. He said it might fry a phone with a lower value. Does anyone know the specs on the Phoenix? You potentially could be getting better sound this way._

 

If it doesn't destroy the can, why not try out yourself real quick? Seems like an easy comparison.


----------



## lmswjm

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tosehee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If it doesn't destroy the can, why not try out yourself real quick? Seems like an easy comparison._

 

I don't have any 300 ohm cans on hand or plan to. My D7000's sound great as is. At their rating, they would easily fry.


----------



## punk_guy182

I have just received the Phoenix today and I noticed some weird things.
 When I use it in single mode, I notice some clicking sounds coming from the amp when I increase or decrease the volume. Also, at the same time, I hear a distortion sound in either my cans or speakers everytime a click is heard from the amp.
 Is this normal? I hope not!
 How do I select the 99 mode? I, so far, only have the 70 mode selected.
 I should receive my DHC nucleotide balanced cable next week for HD650, so I'll be able to test the Phoenix in balanced mode to see how it performs.


----------



## punk_guy182

*Double post*

 Sorry guys!

 However, where are those rubber feet? I don't see them in the box or on the feet of the amp. I'm using little pieces of paper to seperate both units. Is that a good idea?
 Were should I plug the data cable coming from the power box? Left or right? I plugged in the right one. Does it make a difference?


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *punk_guy182* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have just received the Phoenix today and I noticed some weird things.
 When I use it in single mode, I notice some clicking sounds coming from the amp when I increase or decrease the volume. Also, at the same time, I hear a distortion sound in either my cans or speakers everytime a click is heard from the amp.
 Is this normal? I hope not!_

 

Sounds like what's called "zipper noise." It happens because the volume transitions are made when the signal level is above zero. More sophisticated digital volume controls avoid this by using what's called "zero crossing detection." In such circuits, the signal is sensed and the volume transition is only made when the signal is at the zero point.

 If the Phoenix doesn't use zero crossing detection, then the zipper noise is "normal."

 k


----------



## tosehee

Debug button in the back will reset the volume from 70 to 90. I think the clicking when you change the volume is quite normal. I believe it happens with balanced output also.


----------



## punk_guy182

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tosehee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Debug button in the back will reset the volume from 70 to 90. I think the clicking when you change the volume is quite normal. I believe it happens with balanced output also._

 

what ?!?!?! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			








 Those clicking sounds are very obvious and why the fakk am I hearing a distortion everytime I incease or decrese the volume in my cans and speakers? This is abnormal for a 1200$ amp.
 I paid less for the Compass and I didn't get those fakkin' annoying distortion sounds and clicking poping sounds when I played with the volume knob. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 This is pissing me the fakk off! I paid 120$ to have this thing shipped and I waited for all the bugs to be reported and fixed and I get a faulty amp.
 Oh by the way! The 99 mode doesn't work at all, at least I hear no sound in single ended mode. All I see on the screen is oN 99 and when I play with the volume or selector wheel, I see either 00, 70, 99 or oF.
 What?!?!?!


----------



## tosehee

I don't hear distortion, so that's something else.

 I hear occasional clicks when I increase the volume too fast in either direction. Not now when left alone.

 I don't know whether you have a fault unit or not. But, please restraint from using "fakk' please. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *punk_guy182* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_what ?!?!?! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 Those clicking sounds are very obvious and why the fakk am I hearing a distortion everytime I incease or decrese the volume in my cans and speakers? This is abnormal for a 1000K$ amp.
 I paid less for the Compass and I didn't get those fakkin' annoying distortion sounds and clicking poping sounds when I played with the volume knob. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 This is pissing me the fakk off! I paid 120$ to have this thing shipped and I waited for all the bugs to be reported and fixed and I get a faulty amp.
 Oh by the way! The 99 mode doesn't work at all, at least in single ended mode. All I see on the screen is oN 99 and when I play with the volume or selector wheel, I see either 00, 70, 99 or oF.
 What?!?!?!_


----------



## les_garten




----------



## punk_guy182

Okay! I just figured out how the debug button works with 70/99 and oN, oF modes.
 And I still hear those anoying distortion sounds and they get louder as I increase the volume.


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *punk_guy182* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_And I still hear those anoying distortion sounds and they get louder as I increase the volume. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





_

 

Just curious.

 Are you getting the clicks when you change volume when no music is playing or if you have no source connected to the Phoenix?

 k


----------



## punk_guy182

I only get the clicking popping sounds when the Phoenix is turned on and when I turn the volume left or right between 0-70 or 0-99. Before 0 and after 70 or 99 I don't hear them. I don't need to have some music playing or my DAC feeding the Phoenix to hear the popping/clicking sounds.


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *punk_guy182* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I only get the clicking popping sounds when the Phoenix is turned on and when I turn the volume left or right between 0-70 or 0-99. Before 0 and after 70 or 99 I don't hear them. I don't need to have some music playing or my DAC feeding the Phoenix to hear the popping/clicking sounds._

 

Thanks.

 If you're getting it with no music playing or even without a source connected to the unit, then it's not typical zipper noise and there's something wrong. Either an inherent design flaw, something wasn't adjusted properly before it shipped, or it's broke.

 k


----------



## punk_guy182

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Koyaan I. Sqatsi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If you're getting it with no music playing or even without a source connected to the unit, then it's not typical zipper noise and there's something wrong. Either an inherent design flaw, something wasn't adjusted properly before it shipped, or it's broke._

 

This is pissing me the hell off! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I just emailed Kingwa. I explained him everything and I asked him if he tested it personnaly before shipping it. I'll wait for his reply.
 I'm a student on loans that shouldn't have bought this amp in the first place and I don't have the dough to send it back.
 Thanks for helping out Koyaan. Btw, Koyaanisqatsi is my favourite Glass composition. 
 I'll report back tomorow morning. G'nite!


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *punk_guy182* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This is pissing me the hell off! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I just emailed Kingwa. I explained him everything and I asked him if he tested it personnaly before shipping it. I'll wait for his reply.
 I'm a student on loans that shouldn't have bought this amp in the first place and I don't have the dough to send it back._

 

I'm sorry to hear that. The more I hear stories like this the more I'm convinced that sadly Kingwa's just not ready for prime time.

  Quote:


 Thanks for helping out Koyaan. Btw, Koyaanisqatsi is my favourite Glass composition. 
 

You're welcome. Wish I had some better answers for you.

 And I like it too, though I can really only listen to it when accompanied by the film. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


 I'll report back tomorow morning. G'nite! 
 

Okie doke. G'night!

 k


----------



## scootermafia

Now I'm just scared as fudge for the Phoenix coming Monday. This is BS, how does he not hear these things at the factory.


----------



## achristilaw




----------



## IPodPJ

The minor clicking when you change volume is normal with this amp. It seems to be random and doesn't happen with every click of the wheel. It is extremely minor on my amp and hardly noticeable.... certainly there is no distortion involved at all. It sounds like yours unit may have a more serious problem. Discuss it with Kingwa. He is very good about taking care of these things and will make sure you are satisfied. Yes, I understand your frustration. The units need to be more thoroughly tested before they go out and quality control needs to be improved.

 I feel your pain, brotha'. I had a defective Ref1. I'm waiting for the new one to be shipped to me.

 I have decided to help Kingwa free of charge re-type his website in proper English. It will be a long and tedious process and he really doesn't want me troubling myself but I'd like to help him out with it. I'm almost completely done with the Phoenix page. He would, however like a Phoenix F.A.Q. page, so it would be good if you guys can send me e-mails (yes e-mails, not PMs, to pjnuckingfuts@yahoo.com) with any F.A.Q. Questions you think should be on the list.


----------



## akg702

I got my Phoenix today too ....

 There are a two dents on the remote and a dot scratch on the metal selector. I emailed kingwa, and just wonder are these dents and scratches normal with a new phoenix QC.

 Should I just over look those visual in perfection? .... 

 Thanks
 Fin


----------



## Currawong

There shouldn't be dents anywhere. Does your box appear to have been opened by customs? Otherwise, I wonder if Kingwa is having QC issues with his newer workers. He knows which workers built which amps so he can trace it back to find out who is responsible, though that doesn't help the customer receiving the imperfect amp. He seems to be continually cursed with case issues on his gear.


----------



## The Monkey

Those dings would annoy me.


----------



## haloxt

The clicking noise is perfectly normal.


----------



## Bob Jones

The Phoenix sounds great and performs well beyond its price.Yes the volume clicks but imo is not bothersome.However,I find it annoying from song to song,"everytime",it sounds like pluging a jack into an amp.

 punk guy 182,I'm useing cork cut to size under the feet.No ground issue plus isolation.
 I've also installed 1.5" solid aluminum rod a few inches long for air flow.Very industrial I must say.


----------



## sandchak

I really think Kingwa should let Pacific Valve take care of the US market, in fact he has for the first time indicated officially in his website that they are official agents of Audio GD - ºÎÇì»ªÔ*´´ÒôÏì, by giving them enough inventories to take care of such issues. I am quite sure, either this is happening during transit or some lousy guy in the factory is overlooking such issues, in the latter case, I guess the blame falls squarely on Kingwa, although if its happening in transit then its quite unforunate.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *scootermafia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Now I'm just scared as fudge for the Phoenix coming Monday. This is BS, how does he not hear these things at the factory._

 

Hi,
 The clicks are normal. They are very "strong" when you first get the Phoenix but quiet down pretty quickly with use, IME. Then you may notice just a few tics on certain steps. It does not seem random to me, It seems to be always the same steps that click, but it gets so quiet you have to listen for it. They are louder as you go towards less attenuation. The relays clacking in the box will always be there.

 Thanx for posting the PIX of the dings and scratches. Looks like we've found the secret manufacturer of Grado Headphones, it's A-GD! QC looks about the same with those two companies, definitely not something for A-GD to aspire to, QC wise.

 A-GD continues to have QC issues. Not sure why the QC issues can't be resolved. At this point with how blatant these are, the conclusions one could come to are:

 1) Kingwa doesn't care or understand, even though he says he does.
 2) For some reason he can't fix them
 3) He's running so close to the edge, the operation has become too big to control.

 A-GD should hire people that all they do is QC, he obviously has issues that big. One of the Transfos in Bob's Phoenix was loose at all 4 corners. A potentially dangerous situation.

 Getting a Good piece of gear shouldn't be a crapshoot.

 .


----------



## Pale Rider

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi,
 The clicks are normal. They are very "strong" when you first get the Phoenix but quiet down pretty quickly with use, IME. Then you may notice just a few tics on certain steps. It does not seem random to me, It seems to be always the same steps that click, but it gets so quiet you have to listen for it. They are louder as you go towards less attenuation. The relays clacking in the box will always be there.

 Thanx for posting the PIX of the dings and scratches. Looks like we've found the secret manufacturer of Grado Headphones, it's A-GD! QC looks about the same with those two companies, definitely not something for A-GD to aspire to, QC wise.

 A-GD continues to have QC issues. Not sure why the QC issues can't be resolved. At this point with how blatant these are, the conclusions one could come to are:

 1) Kingwa doesn't care or understand, even though he says he does.
 2) For some reason he can't fix them
 3) He's running so close to the edge, the operation has become too big to control.

 A-GD should hire people that all they do is QC, he obviously has issues that big. One of the Transfos in Bob's Phoenix was loose at all 4 corners. A potentially dangerous situation.

 Getting a Good piece of gear shouldn't be a crapshoot.

 ._

 

Well said Les, or written. I am very intrigued by the a-gd equipment and technologies, as well as the SQ reviews here by folks I respect. But the QC issue is not inconsequential. Although I think the Pacific Valve development is a good one, and would provide some "comfort" against the crapshoot and the transcontinental inconvenience factor, by itself it won't solve these problems.


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Getting a Good piece of gear shouldn't be a crapshoot._

 

Absolutely.

 Though by the same token, good help is hard to find (which is why I hope I never find myself in the position of having to take on employees). Even if you have someone doing nothing but QC, it's rather pointless unless they're also competent at it.

 Ideally you want people who are passionate about what they do. Or at the very least, take pride in what they do even if they're not so passionate about what they're actually doing.

 But that's becoming an all too rare commodity anymore. 

 k


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There shouldn't be dents anywhere. Does your box appear to have been opened by customs? Otherwise, I wonder if Kingwa is having QC issues with his newer workers. He knows which workers built which amps so he can trace it back to find out who is responsible, though that doesn't help the customer receiving the imperfect amp. He seems to be continually cursed with case issues on his gear._

 

Enough with DHL and Customs doing this. I guess they loosened at the screws on Bob's transfo too! Strange how customs is picking on A-GD...

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *The Monkey* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Those dings would annoy me._

 

EXACTLY, they should annoy anyone except for A-GD apologists or conspiracy theorists.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bob Jones* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The Phoenix sounds great and performs well beyond its price.Yes the volume clicks but imo is not bothersome.However,I find it annoying from song to song,"everytime",it sounds like pluging a jack into an amp.

 punk guy 182,I'm useing cork cut to size under the feet.No ground issue plus isolation.
 I've also installed 1.5" solid aluminum rod a few inches long for air flow.Very industrial I must say._

 

Bob, I don't get the Aluminum rod comment? Can you elaborate? Are you elevating with it?

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pale Rider* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well said Les, or written. I am very intrigued by the a-gd equipment and technologies, as well as the SQ reviews here by folks I respect. But the QC issue is not inconsequential. Although I think the Pacific Valve development is a good one, and would provide some "comfort" against the crapshoot and the transcontinental inconvenience factor, by itself it won't solve these problems._

 

The problem with Pacific Valve is most likely their "fix" is will be to swap out. That's ok for problems that are few and far between. Not great for frequent problems. That's an expensive way of fixing stuff. It would seem that if you were a manufacturing company that your defect rate should be *well* under 1%. Basically so far 100% of Phoenix boxes have been flawed in some fashion. I'm counting Typos as a qualifying factor. Then there's the ding'd box today, and Bob's loose Transfo.

 So close and yet so far...

 .


----------



## scootermafia

Man, that's ghetto that there's scratches on it.

 Yeah PJ, I was going to offer to retype his whole site too, mentally I've been wanting to help fix the massively bad English. Especially stuff where he calls a neutral product "neuter". It wouldn't take one of us long to do it really, although there are a bunch of pages.

 He should set up some overseas office here in the States to repair stuff and deal their products. They have enough US customers, just about.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Koyaan I. Sqatsi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Absolutely.

*Though by the same token, good help is hard to find (which is why I hope I never find myself in the position of having to take on employees). Even if you have someone doing nothing but QC, it's rather pointless unless they're also competent at it.

 Ideally you want people who are passionate about what they do. Or at the very least, take pride in what they do even if they're not so passionate about what they're actually doing.

 But that's becoming an all too rare commodity anymore. 
*
 k_

 

What you just said!!! Anybody who has owned or managed a business like this understands. The key is hiring OC Zealots on your workforce. Then you just have to deal with the quirky personalities of non-people people managing people! Very rare to find the smart Uber Tech guy who deals beautifully with the workforce and can motivate them with admiration. Those guys are priceless.

 .


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Anybody who has owned or managed a business like this understands._

 

Mmmm... not quite.

 To understand you first have to CARE. And believe me, there are plenty of people out there who own or manage businesses like this who simply DON'T CARE. Fortunately the market often, but not always, ends up putting such businesses out of business, though unfortunately this comes only after having caused a lot of grief for a lot of people.

  Quote:


 The key is hiring OC Zealots on your workforce. Then you just have to deal with the quirky personalities of non-people people managing people! Very rare to find the smart Uber Tech guy who deals beautifully with the workforce and can motivate them with admiration. Those guys are priceless. 
 

That they are indeed.

 k


----------



## Bob Jones

Les
 What I did,ordered 8-1.5" dia. round stock 6060 aluminum pieces cut in 4-3" & 4-2" lengths.The 2" I mounted on the bottom corners,then stacked the power box on top,attacked to the feet.Of course the mounting was a bear without the right equipment.Cut cork to fit feet.Heck,I was going to mount 2 50mm heat sinks just for looks.But then I'd have to put a candle under it to make it run hot enough.Uh,I digress.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bob Jones* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Les
 What I did,ordered 8-1.5" dia. round stock 6060 aluminum pieces cut in 4-3" & 4-2" lengths.The 2" I mounted on the bottom corners,then stacked the power box on top,attacked to the feet.Of course the mounting was a bear without the right equipment.Cut cork to fit feet.Heck,I was going to mount 2 50mm heat sinks just for looks.But then I'd have to put a candle under it to make it run hot enough.Uh,I digress._

 

Hi Bob,
 Sorta following you. I was going to do something similar with PVC painted black. You got a PIC?

 .


----------



## scootermafia

Yep, when you're building something and you notice a tiny inconsistency it's up to you to decide can I sell this or not. Can I let this slide, or not. If you work too hard, and get frustrated, you're more likely to let things slide, and perhaps this is Audiogd's problem...a few little things they don't want to pay up to fix.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *scootermafia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yep, when you're building something and you notice a tiny inconsistency it's up to you to decide can I sell this or not. Can I let this slide, or not. If you work too hard, and get frustrated, you're more likely to let things slide, and perhaps this is Audiogd's problem...a few little things they don't want to pay up to fix._

 

With Audiophiles, for the most part, everything will be noticed. They may not say anything, but also may never buy from you again, and say bad stuff about you in the meantime. They may not want to admit that they feel taken, not everyone will. 

 I think counting on your customers to keep their mouths shut is a bad business model.

 Hand made should mean perfection, a human is manufacturing something and actively making decisions while he is doing so. You can have the signs of a craftsman without it being shoddy. These bangs and dings are shoddy careless work. A Human knows this went out. This is signs of *careless* handling. Or signs that the QC process of the 3rd party is lacking, if a third party is providing some of the parts. 

 I need to post the pix of Bob's transfo. The person who assembled that box knows he screwed up. I'm been too lazy to resize them, but I'll see if I can do it tonight. You'll see what I mean when I post them.

 It's just a shame that things that are 100% preventable cast a cloud over a really nice product line.

 .


----------



## akg702

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There shouldn't be dents anywhere. Does your box appear to have been opened by customs? Otherwise, I wonder if Kingwa is having QC issues with his newer workers. He knows which workers built which amps so he can trace it back to find out who is responsible, though that doesn't help the customer receiving the imperfect amp. He seems to be continually cursed with case issues on his gear._

 

Hi

 Those dents on the remote seem to be there on the remote case before they put it together .... Kingwa did send me the pics of my stuffs but the remote pics is all cover in wraps and you can't see if it is dented before packing.

 I didn't see the selector's dent on his photo he sent me, .... It might be me when unpacking it but those dents are on metal, I don't think I can and will do those damage to my new phoenix while unpacking.

 QC of the sound is important but the visual of the outside is the first thing you see .... I will email him again but I think I will just over look these.

 I just hopes he will pays more attention to the QC of his product in the future. 

 Thanks


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *akg702* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi

 Those dents on the remote seem to be there on the remote case before they put it together .... Kingwa did send me the pics of my stuffs but the remote pics is all cover in wraps and you can't see if it is dented before packing.

 I didn't see the selector's dent on his photo he sent me, .... It might be me when unpacking it but those dents are on metal, I don't think I can and will do those damage to my new phoenix while unpacking.

 QC of the sound is important but the visual of the outside is the first thing you see .... I will email him again but I think I will just over look these.

 I just hopes he will pays more attention to the QC of his product in the future. 

 Thanks_

 

The remote looks like it's been dropped twice. The knob is a mystery. I would think you would remember if you banged it that hard. I think his people are *careless*. I also think they are used to selling to a different market and culture and have not "upped their game" to the correct level.

 .


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Well the fix is easy at least....new knob and a new remote your golden 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I'm not 100% sure some of these faults are faults of the factory but some clearly are. It's tough to judge since the vast majority of other gear shipped (Compass,C-2C etc) shows up at the customers end with none of these dings and dents (for the most part) so it's possible Kingwa needs to have a meeting with the Phoenix and RE1/DAC assembly teams to ask them to account for any of the recent issues. ask them what they could do to improve things or prevent cosmetic damage while assembling the units...basically review the entire process and the employees in a positive fashion to see if these continuing issues can be addressed and eliminated effectively.

 I don't want to point fingers....that is unproductive IMO, but these ongoing mistakes have to be corrected.

 Peete.


----------



## akg702

The Phoenix is amazing for the money.... and I can over look these.

 The point here is we hope kingwa understand that we want his amazing product to be successful .... but to do bushiness in the USA, QC is very important for the outside too.

 For the remote dented case, I need to hit it with a metal or drop it on a concrete floor and my place is carpeted and wooden flooring.... and even if I drop it on a concrete floor it will get scratches with the dents .... but those clean dents seem to be a QC problem while making the metal remote case.

 I don't use the remote anywhere and I might ask him to ship me a new selector if it easy for me to install it, I will paid for it ... no big deal.

 He is doing a business and he needs to make profit. I just hope these bring it to his notice and others buying his great product will get a perfect Product.

 Thanks


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well the fix is easy at least....new knob and a new remote your golden 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'm not 100% sure some of these faults are faults of the factory but some clearly are. It's tough to judge since the vast majority of other gear shipped (Compass,C-2C etc) shows up at the customers end with none of these dings and dents (for the most part) so it's possible Kingwa needs to have a meeting with the Phoenix and RE1/DAC assembly teams to ask them to account for any of the recent issues. ask them what they could do to improve things or prevent cosmetic damage while assembling the units...basically review the entire process and the employees in a positive fashion to see if these continuing issues can be addressed and eliminated effectively.

 I don't want to point fingers....that is unproductive IMO, but these ongoing mistakes have to be corrected.

 Peete._


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *akg702* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The Phoenix is amazing for the money.... and I can over look these._

 

As long as they're overlooked by customers, there's no incentive to change anything.

  Quote:


 The point here is we hope kingwa understand that we want his amazing product to be successful .... but to do bushiness in the USA, QC is very important for the outside too. 
 

I would like to think that it's not only those in the US who care about quality.

  Quote:


 For the remote dented case, I need to hit it with a metal or drop it on a concrete floor and my place is carpeted and wooden flooring.... and even if I drop it on a concrete floor it will get scratches with the dents .... but those clean dents seem to be a QC problem while making the metal remote case. 
 

It's also a QC problem for the company selling the finished product. Just because one of your vendors screws something up doesn't mean you should pass it along to your customers.

 k


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Koyaan I. Sqatsi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_As long as they're overlooked by customers, there's no incentive to change anything._

 

Exactly, Steve. And I think that's what people keep on doing here. They keep buying the products knowing full well the issues they might encounter. It's like playing Russian roulette.

 I guess Kingwa doesn't realize that it costs him more to ship a new product or part out to the U.S. than it does to have some quality control person sit there for $10 or $15 a day and make sure these items are flawless.

 Somehow I seem to have misplaced my Quality Control checklist that comes with the Power Plant Premier, but when I find it I'm going to type it up and post it. It is a model Kingwa should follow to the T (substituting his parts in for PS Audio's, obviously). It's more thorough than any checklist I've ever seen.


----------



## akg702

No way the dents look like it happened after shipping or I dropped it... it looks too perfect without any scratches. It seems the metal was damaged during manufacturing .... if so why it was allow to ship to me. 





 Or someone can tell me how I can damage my new Phoenix's remote or during the shipment .... here is the prove pics Kingwa sends me before they packed the remote, the remote looks well packed but doesn't show the remote is undamaged before shipment.

 I hope Kingwa can address the remote dents......to be fair, for the selector I have no idea and proof as Kingwa pic looks fine. I hope he can quote me how much to get a new selector shipped to me, and how easy for me to replace it ..... 

 Will I buy kingwa product again, yes. The phoenix is very well made and if he can address more on the QC .... he can save a lot of money for long run.











  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Exactly, Steve. And I think that's what people keep on doing here. They keep buying the products knowing full well the issues they might encounter. It's like playing Russian roulette.

 I guess Kingwa doesn't realize that it costs him more to ship a new product or part out to the U.S. than it does to have some quality control person sit there for $10 or $15 a day and make sure these items are flawless.

 Somehow I seem to have misplaced my Quality Control checklist that comes with the Power Plant Premier, but when I find it I'm going to type it up and post it. It is a model Kingwa should follow to the T (substituting his parts in for PS Audio's, obviously). It's more thorough than any checklist I've ever seen._


----------



## akg702

Kingwa addressed my issues above very fast.

 He is going to ship out a new remote and knob.... I just have to pay for the shipping.

 He customer service is first class, I hope he can look into the QC seriously.

 Thanks again....


----------



## moonboy403

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *akg702* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Kingwa addressed my issues above very fast.

 He is going to ship out a new remote and knob.... I just have to pay for the shipping.

 He customer service is first class, I hope he can look into the QC seriously.

 Thanks again...._

 

It doesn't make sense. Why would you need to pay for shipping if it's not your fault in the first place?


----------



## punk_guy182

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *moonboy403* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It doesn't make sense. Why would you need to pay for shipping if it's not your fault in the first place?_

 

I totally agree and he better not charge me for sending my Phoenix to his american friend.


----------



## akg702

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *moonboy403* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It doesn't make sense. Why would you need to pay for shipping if it's not your fault in the first place?_

 

I agreed with you guys too, why I have to pay for shipping. He is watching this forum and he needs to understand what his customers think.

 But we need to give Kingwa some credit too, Look at what he put in the phoenix for the price, if he is just a business guy, he can easily sell the phoenix for 2k... I ordered the Phoenix two month ago and decide to wait for the back panel fix and he honor the discount prices. 

 US $17 shipping to get over with these is nothing as I just want to enjoy my music ..... If you don't think you should pay for the mistake, don't!

 Thanks


----------



## scootermafia

Wow, he sent you DIY CAST plugs? I need to score some of those...


----------



## IPodPJ

I'm still wondering why the remote is silver when the Phoenix is black.


----------



## moonboy403

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *akg702* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I agreed with you guys too, why I have to pay for shipping. He is watching this forum and he needs to understand what his customers think.

 But we need to give Kingwa some credit too, Look at what he put in the phoenix for the price, if he is just a business guy, he can easily sell the phoenix for 2k... I ordered the Phoenix two month ago and decide to wait for the back panel fix and he honor the discount prices. 

 US $17 shipping to get over with these is nothing as I just want to enjoy my music ..... If you don't think you should pay for the mistake, don't!

 Thanks_

 

If Kingwa decides to sell a product at certain price, then that's the end of the story. The product that arrives at my/your door should be nothing less than perfect. If it's not, then it's his fault. Think about it this way, you paid for what is advertised on his website which is a P*hoenix in perfect condition*. 

 I admire Kingwa for coming out with an awesome amp and I had one myself but he needs to step up and take blame/shipping fees. 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *scootermafia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wow, he sent you DIY CAST plugs? I need to score some of those..._

 

I believe they come with every Phoenix.


----------



## akg702

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *scootermafia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wow, he sent you DIY CAST plugs? I need to score some of those..._

 

One set of DIY plugs come with the phoenix, the second set is for someone on this forum.

 I already paid for the shipping and kingwa is shipping out the knob and remote today ..... for me I consider my case closed.

 Thanks


----------



## ztsen

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *moonboy403* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It doesn't make sense. Why would you need to pay for shipping if it's not your fault in the first place?_

 

I also dont understand why need to pay for the shipping for the replacement.


----------



## sandchak

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ztsen* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I also dont understand why need to pay for the shipping for the replacement._

 

In my opinion that is happening because he is not shipping back the defective part for replacement (in which case A-GD pays for the shipping).

 Edit. In any case the buyer seems to be happy with the deal, and if this happens to someone else in the future, he/she can take up this issue directly with Kingwa IMHO.


----------



## moonboy403

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sandchak* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_In my opinion that is happening because he is not shipping back the defective part for replacement (in which case A-GD pays for the shipping).

 Edit. In any case the buyer seems to be happy with the deal, and if this happens to someone else in the future, he/she can take up this issue directly with Kingwa IMHO._

 

I was under the impression that Audio-Gd's warranty covers shipping both ways during the first year in which case should be applicable for replacing these defects free of charge.


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *akg702* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Kingwa addressed my issues above very fast.

 He is going to ship out a new remote and knob.... I just have to pay for the shipping.

 He customer service is first class, I hope he can look into the QC seriously.

 Thanks again...._

 

I sent him 3 emails of the same type, that he forgot the send me the CAST cable that I paid along with the original purchase.

 It's already been more than 10 days after I received my package, and he still hasn't shipped the CAST cable, nor responded to my emails. 

 You are lucky there. With all his moves and etc, I am giving him some slacks, but man.. CAST cable is not like building a new phoenix here. I hope he ships it soon.

 I feel like I should send him another email saying that I will cover the shipping cost if he sends within next 3 days......


----------



## IPodPJ

tosehee,
 If you haven't received an e-mail from him in 10 days, something is wrong. I have talked to him and he usually responds very quickly. Check your junk mail folder and make sure it didn't get placed there.


----------



## googlephone

double post


----------



## googlephone

Quote:


 I sent him 3 emails of the same type, that he forgot the send me the CAST cable that I paid along with the original purchase.

 It's already been more than 10 days after I received my package, and he still hasn't shipped the CAST cable, nor responded to my emails.

 You are lucky there. With all his moves and etc, I am giving him some slacks, but man.. CAST cable is not like building a new phoenix here. I hope he ships it soon.

 I feel like I should send him another email saying that I will cover the shipping cost if he sends within next 3 days...... 
 

I just put in an order for the Phoenix and Ref 1 Friday. If you want you can ask him to toss in an extra cast cable with my order if you think it will help get it to you quicker.


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_tosehee,
 If you haven't received an e-mail from him in 10 days, something is wrong. I have talked to him and he usually responds very quickly. Check your junk mail folder and make sure it didn't get placed there._

 

I doubt it because I got the normal auto-response email from him right away.

 I will double check my junk box to be sure, but I seriously doubt this is the case.


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *googlephone* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just put in an order for the Phoenix and Ref 1 Friday. If you want you can ask him to toss in an extra cast cable with my order if you think it will help get it to you quicker._

 

Yours is going to take at least 3 to 4 weeks. If I cannot expect to get the CAST cable before that, I have no clue what to say.. i am not asking him to build a new box here. Just ship me a spare CAST cable that I already paid for. Is that too much to ask?


----------



## punk_guy182

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tosehee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yours is going to take at least 3 to 4 weeks. If I cannot expect to get the CAST cable before that, I have no clue what to say.. i am not asking him to build a new box here. Just ship me a spare CAST cable that I already paid for. Is that too much to ask?_

 

Not at all! If you did not receive any emails from him, I suggest you harass him until he responds.


----------



## akg702

He seem busy moving to his new factory...

 You might have to title your mail's subject to get his notice.
 Ask him did he run away with your money
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I got the tracking no: for my remote and knob replacement.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tosehee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I sent him 3 emails of the same type, that he forgot the send me the CAST cable that I paid along with the original purchase.

 It's already been more than 10 days after I received my package, and he still hasn't shipped the CAST cable, nor responded to my emails. 

 You are lucky there. With all his moves and etc, I am giving him some slacks, but man.. CAST cable is not like building a new phoenix here. I hope he ships it soon.

 I feel like I should send him another email saying that I will cover the shipping cost if he sends within next 3 days......_


----------



## akg702

Why did I paid for the shipping, he asks for ($17) and I just want to get over it. 

 I get to kept the dented remote, don't have to pack it and go to the post offices ..... I can spend the time enjoying music = priceless

 Yes, I can insist not paying shipping and still keep the dented remote and get the new knob and remote ..... BUT THAT NOT COOL.

 Kingwa shipped it out on that day immediately, come on ... give this guy a break and I think he is trying his best, his best might not be good enough for some people but good enough for me.

 Thanks

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *moonboy403* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I was under the impression that Audio-Gd's warranty covers shipping both ways during the first year in which case should be applicable for replacing these defects free of charge._


----------



## tosehee

I have no problem with him except some delays here and there..

 My RE1 and Phoenix arrived without any issue. Hrm. Now that I think about it, there is one issue, but it doesn't bother me as much as others might.

 The Phoenix is NOT balanced when set on table. One corner is slightly higher than the rest 3. So, If I push that corner, the entire unit moves up and down.

 Well, I do not plan to move the Phoenix at all. So I put some papers on it, and it balanced out. Still a pretty sad QC if you ask me, but that doesn't affect the sound quality. So, there you go. I let it slide by and I didn't even mention about that once here nor to Kingwa. I gave him enough slack since he's moving and all.

 Now, about the delays with CAST cable, I have no clue how many days of slack I need to give it to him. I sent him another email last night, and still no response from him. You guys think I am being too aggressive here? 

 I really don't think I am putting any pressure on the entire orders and such. C'mon.


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *akg702* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Why did I paid for the shipping, he asks for ($17) and I just want to get over it. 

 I get to kept the dented remote, don't have to pack it and go to the post offices ..... I can spend the time enjoying music = priceless

 Yes, I can insist not paying shipping and still keep the dented remote and get the new knob and remote ..... BUT THAT NOT COOL.

 Kingwa shipped it out on that day immediately, come on ... give this guy a break and I think he is trying his best, his best might not be good enough for some people but good enough for me.

 Thanks_


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tosehee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have no problem with him except some delays here and there..

 My RE1 and Phoenix arrived without any issue. Hrm. Now that I think about it, there is one issue, but it doesn't bother me as much as others might.

 The Phoenix is NOT balanced when set on table. One corner is slightly higher than the rest 3. So, If I push that corner, the entire unit moves up and down.

 Well, I do not plan to move the Phoenix at all. So I put some papers on it, and it balanced out. Still a pretty sad QC if you ask me, but that doesn't affect the sound quality. So, there you go. I let it slide by and I didn't even mention about that once here nor to Kingwa. I gave him enough slack since he's moving and all.

 Now, about the delays with CAST cable, I have no clue how many days of slack I need to give it to him. I sent him another email last night, and still no response from him. You guys think I am being too aggressive here? 

 I really don't think I am putting any pressure on the entire orders and such. C'mon._

 

Level? Are you SURE your surface is level? I've had two in my possession and they were both level. There's not much ways they box can go out of level unless a foot is installed correctly or that piece od sharkwire on the bottom is cut differently on one foot. You should look over the feet and the piece of sharkwire. Maybe a piece dropped out. 

 The Sharkwire pieces are BS in my opinion and he needs to come up with a better pad. Ay least glue them in place.

 .


----------



## Yikes

I believe that the feet come with a small rubber gromet at the tip of each foot, if one were missing it could cause the tilting aspect that you describe. Roll it over and see if all four feet have the little rubber duhickie.


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I believe that the feet come with a small rubber gromet at the tip of each foot, if one were missing it could cause the tilting aspect that you describe. Roll it over and see if all four feet have the little rubber duhickie._

 

There is no little rubber in all four feet. But again, this doesn't bother me.

 As for the surface being leveled, they are. This desk is my "home" table where all my PC equipment and everything else is on. The surface is free from any debris and I have checked whether there are any cables. If the cable is what causes the tilting, it would be much worse than what I see. It's a slight tilting which can be fixed by putting a piece of paper folded several times.

 Again, no biggie as it doesn't bother me much. I just wish he ships the cable.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tosehee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There is no little rubber in all four feet. But again, this doesn't bother me.

 As for the surface being leveled, they are. This desk is my "home" table where all my PC equipment and everything else is on. The surface is free from any debris and I have checked whether there are any cables. If the cable is what causes the tilting, it would be much worse than what I see. It's a slight tilting which can be fixed by putting a piece of paper folded several times.

 Again, no biggie as it doesn't bother me much. I just wish he ships the cable._

 

The fact that you don't have the sharkwire pieces may be the problem. They are slightly compressible. If you get something to fit in the recess on the bottom it will most lkely solve the issue. That would irritate me.

 .


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The fact that you don't have the sharkwire pieces may be the problem. They are slightly compressible. If you get something to fit in the recess on the bottom it will most lkely solve the issue. That would irritate me.

 ._

 

Well, it does irritate me a bit, but not to a point where I would backfire kingwa about it. The even weirder issue is that only the PSU has this issue, and other box is 100% balanced.

 In any rate, this is not a big deal to ME. But somewhat portrays where his QC is at.


----------



## scootermafia

Maybe cut some Moleskin to fit so each foot is padded? I'm picking up my Phoenix in a few hours and I'll give a QC report. If mine has problems too, then it's pretty safe to say that Audio-Gd cannot be all the way trusted. They really should hire some nerd to inspect things where that's all they do. But it comes down to not caring and letting things slide to save money and time.


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *scootermafia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Maybe cut some Moleskin to fit so each foot is padded? I'm picking up my Phoenix in a few hours and I'll give a QC report. If mine has problems too, then it's pretty safe to say that Audio-Gd cannot be all the way trusted. They really should hire some nerd to inspect things where that's all they do. But it comes down to not caring and letting things slide to save money and time._

 

Physical QC is one thing, but what about the internals? The sound and everything else might be perfect in reality, but these small glitches and QC issues definitely leads people to question the actual product itself.

 He really needs to tighten this up, or he will just scare potential buyers away. Think about it. You are losing a potential buyer because you can't fix a tiny QC issues that can be prevented majority of the time. This is just sad, imo.


----------



## scootermafia

Yeah, these really aren't serious quality issues of the Mikhail variety. If audiogd stuff didn't kick ass, I wouldn't buy it. But they're serious in that they impact business in a serious way - this thread is going to make potential buyers uncomfortable. Hopefully mine will be the first in a line of working Phoenixes, but I'm not going to hold my breath.

 Oh and that chipped remote - shipping damage can't do that if the item is packed in styrofoam or anything really...you'd need a chisel to knock a big chunk of aluminum off like that, it is not a scratch. This happened at the factory, it got dinged up and still made it into the shipping box.

 I'm feeling like Julian from Trailer Park Boys, "THINK KINGWA THINK"

 I reminded Kingwa to put the CAST cables in the box several times, if they're not there than I may have to choke a...


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *scootermafia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yeah, these really aren't serious quality issues of the Mikhail variety. If audiogd stuff didn't kick ass, I wouldn't buy it. But they're serious in that they impact business in a serious way - this thread is going to make potential buyers uncomfortable. Hopefully mine will be the first in a line of working Phoenixes, but I'm not going to hold my breath.

 Oh and that chipped remote - shipping damage can't do that if the item is packed in styrofoam or anything really...you'd need a chisel to knock a big chunk of aluminum off like that, it is not a scratch. This happened at the factory, it got dinged up and still made it into the shipping box.

 I'm feeling like Julian from Trailer Park Boys, "THINK KINGWA THINK"

 I reminded Kingwa to put the CAST cables in the box several times, if they're not there than I may have to choke a..._

 

My Phoenix was perfect, EXCEPT for the Typos in the slk-screening on the back. No excuse for that. 

 .


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *scootermafia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Oh and that chipped remote - shipping damage can't do that if the item is packed in styrofoam or anything really...you'd need a chisel to knock a big chunk of aluminum off like that, it is not a scratch. This happened at the factory, it got dinged up and still made it into the shipping box._

 

Not saying that's not the case here, but you'd be surprised at just what the shippers are able to cleverly accomplish as far as damage goes.

 UPS managed to break the corner off an amplifier faceplate. A 3/8" thick billet aluminum faceplate. Didn't just bend it, but broke it off. 

 The shipping box was in virtually perfect shape. Except for a small, 1/4" hole in the side.

 Figure THAT one out. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 k


----------



## scootermafia

Look in the box, there should be padding for the feet. 

 Mine just came. Perfect in every way, even came with new power and cast connectors of course, they didn't forget anything. Nobody told me the remote was king size candy bar size, it's enormous and heavy...epic....

 Sounds beautiful with the DAC8/Ref1 and HD800. Really meaty, powerful, authoritative sound.

 No weird clicking through the headphones when I adjust the volume. Of course, when you turn the knob with no headphones on, the relays click.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Damn, it's a relief you got a unit that has no issues Scooter......I hope the latest round of errors has been been addressed ?

 I don't get any weird clicking with the headphones on either but the relays will click...that is what they are designed to do after all 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Darn it all.....I really need to try out a pair of HD800's....(c'mon lottery ticket numbers 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)

 Peete.


----------



## scootermafia

Yeah, they sound delicate and beautiful but they can really lay the smack down with the Phoenix. All my other headphones sound their best with balanced cables and the Phoenix, but the HD800 is something very different. They definitely needed a recable though, the stock one is a real stinker.


----------



## haloxt

I get a clicking in the music, but maybe it has something to do with my low impedance and so so high sensitivity headphones? And you can only hear it if you look for it and stay far from the clicking psu so you don't confuse the two. Hardly an issue at all, in fact I wouldn't mind if audio-gd put in a function where you hear an audible beep whenever you raise or lower the volume since the new "display off" option may leave you guessing if you did turn the volume higher or lower, only a small area you can point the remote in and still reach the psu.


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *scootermafia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yeah, they sound delicate and beautiful but they can really lay the smack down with the Phoenix. All my other headphones sound their best with balanced cables and the Phoenix, but the HD800 is something very different. They definitely needed a recable though, the stock one is a real stinker._

 

I wouldn't call a stock cable a stinker.. It sounds pretty darn good, imho.


----------



## scootermafia

Have you compared the stock cable to anything? Not saying that it isn't vastly nicer made than a stock HD650 cable, but it does have room for improvement.

 Edit: Most obvious improvement with Phoenix is classical music. It was incredibly boring before to listen to in comparison. Everything just sort of floats in space, amazing...


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *scootermafia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Have you compared the stock cable to anything? Not saying that it isn't vastly nicer made than a stock HD650 cable, but it does have room for improvement._

 

No. That's something I should do in the future. But, I read many threads where the stock cable for HD800 is vastly superior to stock cables that come with hd600 or 650. It's also touted as audiophile quality. So I don't know and I can't comment on the comparison to other cables that costs $300+ to the stock one, but I wouldn't simply call it 'stinker' either.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *scootermafia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Edit: Most obvious improvement with Phoenix is classical music. It was incredibly boring before to listen to in comparison. Everything just sort of floats in space, amazing..._

 

Wait until you get her past 400 hours 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Peete.


----------



## scootermafia

Yeah, she needs hours alright. While they did do a good job of teflon insulating the wires and silver plating them, it's still 32 gauge, like dental floss. Any cable with a more typical size interconnect wire where concessions aren't being made for size (although they compensate with enough rubber to make it as big as most aftermarket hd800 cables) such as 22-26 gauge or so is going to be a serious improvement, although I was plenty pleased with HD800 right out of the box. It's nice that they sort of care. Next, they just need to make the wires be OCC copper (gee, how hard) and closer to 24 gauge with 40/40 stranding or so, the cable won't be that big if they use decent materials....


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Agreed Scooter. I think early consensus are the APS cables taking honors so far with the HD800s. SAA pricing is insane.....

 Cripes I can't even afford the aftermarket cable for the HD800's let alone the cans themselves right now. Next year I hope things will change (famous last words as the wallet says I'm on life support you boob...lay off) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Peete.


----------



## scootermafia

Fun Phoenix fact #565435: Hitting the Phoenix with a camera flash while music is playing makes it skip for a split-second.


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *scootermafia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yeah, she needs hours alright. While they did do a good job of teflon insulating the wires and silver plating them, it's still 32 gauge, like dental floss. Any cable with a more typical size interconnect wire where concessions aren't being made for size (although they compensate with enough rubber to make it as big as most aftermarket hd800 cables) such as 22-26 gauge or so is going to be a serious improvement, although I was plenty pleased with HD800 right out of the box. It's nice that they sort of care. Next, they just need to make the wires be OCC copper (gee, how hard) and closer to 24 gauge with 40/40 stranding or so, the cable won't be that big if they use decent materials...._

 

I will have to check that out. I am not a cable believe, even though I do believe that it makes a minor improvements, but not to a point I'd call it 'drastic'. But then again, I haven't experienced anything above $100+ range, so my experience is quite shallow in that front.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *scootermafia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Fun Phoenix fact #565435: Hitting the Phoenix with a camera flash while music is playing makes it skip for a split-second._

 

Wow really ? Lemme give it a try ........brb

 EDIT: Didn't work for me....took 2 shots from 1 ft away and 4 inches away from the front faceplate....what cam are you using ? Mine is a Canon PS A1000IS.

 Peete.


----------



## scootermafia

Canon A560. Works like a charm. Mine must do just the right wavelength of light. Tiny, tiny pause of silence.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Damn, it's a relief you got a unit that has no issues Scooter......I hope the latest round of errors has been been addressed ?

 I don't get any weird clicking with the headphones on either but the relays will click...that is what they are designed to do after all 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Darn it all.....I really need to try out a pair of HD800's....(c'mon lottery ticket numbers 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)

 Peete._

 

Well I just bought a few Mega-Millions tickets. If I win the $252 Million jackpot, I'll buy you a pair.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *scootermafia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Fun Phoenix fact #565435: Hitting the Phoenix with a camera flash while music is playing makes it skip for a split-second._

 

Are you sure that's the Phoenix? That sounds like the disturbance I was getting with the Ref1 and my Air Conditioner or fan. If it is the Phoenix, maybe it's some EMF disturbance. Or maybe the light is interfering with the IR sensor in the Phoenix. Who knows...

 The Phoenix needs to be warmed up a good 3 - 4 hours before it sounds its best in my opinion, if you have no music playing through it. With music playing, about 2.5 hours seems to do the trick.

 For all the Phoenix/HD800 owners, get yourself some resistance adapters made. Once my 82.4 ohm nude Vishay ones are done, I'll compare those to the 100 ohm Mills and report which one is better. The added resistance really brings the bass to life with the HD800/Phoenix pairing, something the Phoenix does not have as good control over as the balanced B22.


----------



## The Monkey

What happens if you give the Phoenix the stink eye?


----------



## Yikes

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wow really ? Lemme give it a try ........brb

 EDIT: Didn't work for me....took 2 shots from 1 ft away and 4 inches away from the front faceplate....what cam are you using ? Mine is a Canon PS A1000IS.

 Peete._

 

Yours must be broken


----------



## NiToNi




----------



## NiToNi

My factory-modded Phoenix arrived today 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It uses Furutech FP-682(R) for balanced headphone out on the front panel.












 It uses Furutech FP-782(G) for XLR in and LEMO connectors for CAST in on the rear panel.












 It uses VH Audio's 24 AWG Unicrystal Solid Core OCC Silver hook-up wire for the two modded inputs and the XLR output. The cotton insulation can be seen in these piccies.











 So far so good.... everything seems to work as it should 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Thanks a million Kingwa!


----------



## scootermafia

Wow, nice mods! Could've been fun to go that route, yours sure is one of a kind...


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *scootermafia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wow, nice mods! Could've been fun to go that route, yours sure is one of a kind..._

 

x2

 Why didn't I think of that.....

 Looks awesome~! Definitely makes it unique across all these Phoenix owners.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

That is one spiffy custom job 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Peete.


----------



## scootermafia

I did a Mills resistor impedance adapter, using a removable type design since while I could have hard wired it into their cable when I made it, it wouldn't let me experiment much. 

 I agree with some of the stuff PJ said, it warms the sound up a bit for me, bass slightly more robust, and hardly any transparency loss, just 4 more high quality resistors in the signal path. 

 This is pretty easy to build, you just need heatshrink of several sizes to protect the resistors, 4 resistors, a 4 pin male and 4 pin female neutrik. You want to measure it a little differently than mine so that the main bodies of the plugs are flush, so trim the resistors. You can figure out how deep into the body the inner part of the pins are on each side, then add up these 2 depths to get overall resistor length. This way when you put the ends on they touch and there's no space. Glue optional, I didn't glueflood these. Anyway, start with the female plug filling each pin with solder, then just stick the resistor in get it straight and let it cool, then heatshrink all 4 resistors so they can never contact each other. Then stick the 4 other ends into the male plug, you want both plugs in their normal configuration, the resistors just go end to end pin 1 to pin 1 and so on. Then just slip the bodies on and cover with heatshrink. Pretty clean.


----------



## ztsen

Hi, can help me out here. Just receive my Phoenix. But not sure how to connection the data cable. It seems like 2 date out but 1 in only. which one I should plug? the data cable only 1-to-1.


----------



## seaice

ztsen: It doesnt matter, which data out you use. I have tried both data outputs on my Phoenix and both works perfectly with no difference in my ears.


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ztsen* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi, can help me out here. Just receive my Phoenix. But not sure how to connection the data cable. It seems like 2 date out but 1 in only. which one I should plug? the data cable only 1-to-1._

 

Heh.

 So I am not the only one who got confused with this design.


----------



## NiToNi

Even more confusing is the fact that the Preamp button should be left OFF for headphone listening....


----------



## ztsen

thanks. plug it in. initial impression. sounds sibilance and thin like hell. ??!!

 =.="


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ztsen* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi, can help me out here. Just receive my Phoenix. But not sure how to connection the data cable. It seems like 2 date out but 1 in only. which one I should plug? the data cable only 1-to-1._

 

Another good reason for a FAQ or instructions sheet. No matter how simple you think things are, somebody won't intuitively understand it.

 This is kinda like the UINIX world. As soon as you have to do something twice, it's time to write a script to do the work for you. Over time, most UNIX admins noticed that 95% of the workforce could be replaced with PERL scripts. Indirectly it was noticed that this made more Pizza available at Lunchtime!

 Same with FAQs. As soon as you have to answer a question twice, it's time to do a FAQ. This is addressed to A-GD. In reality, the FAQ should make it where there are no questions, they are answered before they are asked.

*ANSWER: **Just plug one end into one box and the other end into the other box. Don't plug both ends into the same box.*

 I imagine he has a second port so he can communicate with the controller while it's hooked up, just a guess though.

 .


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ztsen* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_thanks. plug it in. initial impression. sounds sibilance and thin like hell. ??!!

 =.="_

 

Cold...

 .


----------



## haloxt

What do you have connected to the phoenix? It is very source dependent, I was shocked when I connected it to the compass dac.


----------



## ztsen

Haaaaa.... my bad. forgotten turn off the equalizer in foobar. (used for notebook lousy speaker)


----------



## ztsen

Mine have minimum QC impact. Will try post photo soon.


----------



## tosehee

What is UINIX?? 

 I agree 100% about the need for FAQ or Manual. There is no manual and while things aren't as hard as it seems at first, those manuals/faq would definitely help the new person coming onboard.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Another good reason for a FAQ or instructions sheet. No matter how simple you think things are, somebody won't intuitively understand it.

 This is kinda like the UINIX world. As soon as you have to do something twice, it's time to write a script to do the work for you. Over time, most UNIX admins noticed that 95% of the workforce could be replaced with PERL scripts. Indirectly it was noticed that this made more Pizza available at Lunchtime!

 Same with FAQs. As soon as you have to answer a question twice, it's time to do a FAQ. This is addressed to A-GD. In reality, the FAQ should make it where there are no questions, they are answered before they are asked.

*ANSWER: **Just plug one end into one box and the other end into the other box. Don't plug both ends into the same box.*

 I imagine he has a second port so he can communicate with the controller while it's hooked up, just a guess though.

 ._


----------



## ztsen

My set minimum QC impact. Will post photo soon. Took 6 days delivery.

 Really dont like the volume control have "clicking" sound when adjust, even when in headphone (minor). Then my family member will know i am changing volume. (later will heard "Don't listen so loud")


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ztsen* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My set minimum QC impact. Will post photo soon. Took 6 days delivery.

 Really dont like the volume control have "clicking" sound when adjust, even when in headphone (minor). Then my family member will know i am changing volume. (later will heard "Don't listen so loud")_

 

I noticed the clicking at first listen too, but this seems to disappear as it gets more burning in.


----------



## ztsen

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Another good reason for a FAQ or instructions sheet. No matter how simple you think things are, somebody won't intuitively understand it.

 This is kinda like the UINIX world. As soon as you have to do something twice, it's time to write a script to do the work for you. Over time, most UNIX admins noticed that 95% of the workforce could be replaced with PERL scripts. Indirectly it was noticed that this made more Pizza available at Lunchtime!

 Same with FAQs. As soon as you have to answer a question twice, it's time to do a FAQ. This is addressed to A-GD. In reality, the FAQ should make it where there are no questions, they are answered before they are asked.

*ANSWER: **Just plug one end into one box and the other end into the other box. Don't plug both ends into the same box.*

 I imagine he has a second port so he can communicate with the controller while it's hooked up, just a guess though.

 ._

 

Hi Les, Unix shell script I know. Perl script also I know. But not the phoenix connection. lol.


----------



## Bob Jones

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tosehee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I noticed the clicking at first listen too, but this seems to disappear as it gets more burning in._

 

When adjusting volume sometimes it does,sometimes not.
 But always the sound like plugging into a live amp from song to song.


----------



## ztsen

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tosehee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I noticed the clicking at first listen too, but this seems to disappear as it gets more burning in._

 

Do you mean the external clicking sound or the internal sound reduce after burn in?
 a bit like iphone sms feel, click click click.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bob Jones* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_When adjusting volume sometimes it does,sometimes not.
 But always the sound like plugging into a live amp from song to song._

 

That should not be. I don't hear any noise between songs.


----------



## viciouscycles

This would be a good case for a Mills resistor impedance adapter. You could replace resistors easily. Other manufacturers make this type of item often called turnarounds or mike adapters.


----------



## viciouscycles

Sorry link didn't work. Switchcraft S3FM Adapter, XLR Male to XLR Female | Full Compass


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tosehee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I noticed the clicking at first listen too, but this seems to disappear as it gets more burning in._

 

Mine was very loud at first and present on every step. It got louder as you went up the scale. There was a click and a small short duration crackle on each step. This went away very fast. Now there are only a few steps left that make an almost inaudible click. maybe 3 or 4 steps now click, and a very quiet click at that. I'm thinking they'll disappear also.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That should not be. I don't hear any noise between songs._

 

That's his source doing that.


----------



## Charnwood

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That should not be. I don't hear any noise between songs._

 

I too don't hear any noise between songs.

 Edit: I replaced my broken selecter control and knob today so my Phoenix well again and sounding wonderful. It transforms my system.


----------



## Bob Jones

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's his source doing that._

 

Well as soon as I posted,after all this time,figured out it was comming from the computer.Silence at last


----------



## scootermafia

They're relays. Each click you hear is the Phoenix reminding you that it's awesome. It doesn't use a cheapass method of switching and controlling things. And supposedly they get quieter with time.

 Pretty sure that link is the same case/setup PJ is using. Mine is for 4 pin XLR though, not 3-pin. Only got the one.


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Mine was very loud at first and present on every step. It got louder as you went up the scale. There was a click and a small short duration crackle on each step. This went away very fast. Now there are only a few steps left that make an almost inaudible click. maybe 3 or 4 steps now click, and a very quiet click at that. I'm thinking they'll disappear also._

 

x2. This is what I am referring to.


----------



## punk_guy182

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Mine was very loud at first and present on every step. It got louder as you went up the scale. There was a click and a small short duration crackle on each step. This went away very fast. Now there are only a few steps left that make an almost inaudible click. maybe 3 or 4 steps now click, and a very quiet click at that. I'm thinking they'll disappear also._

 

Yeah! This is what I was talking about when I said I heard a distortion sound. However, the distortion/crackling sound is still there but not always on every step. After how much burn in time should I expect it to go definitely away?
 I still those loud clicking sounds on each single steps after 50 hours of burning in though.


----------



## haloxt

I think you're supposed to keep changing the volume to make it click more quietly hehe. I still get a click after ~700+ hours, doesn't bother me though, I concur with scootermafia, each click reminds you how awesome phoenix is 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.


----------



## punk_guy182

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think you're supposed to keep changing the volume to make it click more quietly hehe. I still get a click after ~700+ hours, doesn't bother me though, I concur with scootermafia, each click reminds you how awesome phoenix is 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




._

 

I can live with the clicking sound but not the fakking distortion/crackling sound!


----------



## haloxt

It's only a low-mid volume noise for a split second though right?


----------



## punk_guy182

For a split second yes but that is unacceptable for this kind of amp. I paid less for the Compass and I didn't get that. I don't like to hear some interference everytime I switch the volume while listening to soft baroque music.
 Kingwa asked me to test the Phoenix with another source to see if I still get those distortion/crackling sounds. I only have a cheap Zenith DVD/VHS player to test with and I'll try it later tonight.


----------



## punk_guy182

*Double post*
 Sorry!


----------



## IPodPJ

Too many variables between units.


----------



## tosehee

I don't know. I have burned ever since I received non-stop. So, I have little over 300 hours or so. I didn't check these but when I changed the volume now, I don't hear the clicks. So, I guess each Phoenix's quite different when it comes to burn in. But after 200+ hours, I think the clicks start to fade and a lot more noticeable.


----------



## haloxt

I don't think it is variability between phoenixes, I think this is just demonstrating on a grand scale the limits of written descriptions on auditory events lol. The crackling occurs with mine and other people's phoenixes and is perfectly normal. The reason why the compass doesn't have it (it sort of has a slight fuzz instead, very slight) is just because the phoenix uses a different volume control, not due to any faults in the phoenix itself. Have fun listening and stop worrying.


----------



## tosehee

haloxt pretty much sums it up. It doesn't affect the performance any bit, and only occurs when you change volume. It starts to disappear as it burns. So, don't worry about it.


----------



## Currawong

Bob_Jones and ztsen: Are you using a computer sound card as your source for the Phoenix?


----------



## ztsen

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Bob_Jones and ztsen: Are you using a computer sound card as your source for the Phoenix?_

 

my setup is:

 computer -->usb-optical converter---->zero+---->phoenix


----------



## ztsen

my impression of no burn in phoenix is:
 -flat
 -not detail
 -all high is round off
 -minor volume click sound in headphone, but loud at the unit itself.

 Is this what u guys hear too when first received?


----------



## Currawong

I don't remember the highs being rolled off, unless they are a tad brighter now than they were when I first received it or it needs 30 minutes to get a bit warm first. Also I have found that Audio-gd gear can sound rather dark when compared with overly bright-voiced equipment though. I couldn't wait though and just left my Phoenix on for two weeks whether I was using it or not.


----------



## tosehee

I remember as being little bright and flat, and not engaging. Then after 100+ hours of burn-in, the sound is clearer, more neutral/transparent, and the music is a lot more engaging and detailed.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ztsen* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_my impression of no burn in phoenix is:
 -flat
 -not detail
 -all high is round off
 -minor volume click sound in headphone, but loud at the unit itself.

 Is this what u guys hear too when first received?_

 

If that's your impression, prepare to sell it. It's most likely not for you. Kingwa must have warned me ten times to make sure I liked Neutral gear. When somebody does that he is telling you something and you should listen.

 Alternatively, spend some time with the gear and realize that it doesn't lack detail, and has very good resolution, just not the fanfare you may hear with other gear. It is neutral and you may interpret that as flat.

 Question: Did he warn you about it being neutral?

 .


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If that's your impression, prepare to sell it. It's most likely not for you. Kingwa must have warned me ten times to make sure I liked Neutral gear. When somebody does that he is telling you something and you should listen.

 Alternatively, spend some time with the gear and realize that it doesn't lack detail, and has very good resolution, just not the fanfare you may hear with other gear. It is neutral and you may interpret that as flat.

 Question: Did he warn you about it being neutral?

 ._

 

In his poor English, nothing sounds as warning to me. 

 When I ordered, he didn't bother telling me anything about being neutral. I saw that in the website if that's what you are referring to.

 Being highly neutral amp, it takes a little getting used to. But awesome in every way.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tosehee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_In his poor English, nothing sounds as warning to me. 

 When I ordered, he didn't bother telling me anything about being neutral. I saw that in the website if that's what you are referring to.

 Being highly neutral amp, it takes a little getting used to. But awesome in every way._

 


 Hmmm, he warned me profusely about the REF1 and Phoenix. I had another friend of mine that he did the same thing. I think he will tailor the Phoenix sound for you as well, I shudder to think of that though. I would say this may not be ZTSEN's cip of tea though.

 .


----------



## Bob Jones

Computer-northstar mk2-phoenix.
 Mine did not sound good but improved with burn in.Can't believe how good it sounds.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bob Jones* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Computer-northstar mk2-phoenix.
 Mine did not sound good but improved with burn in.Can't believe how good it sounds._

 

A Happy Camper who loves that FLAT Sound!


----------



## ztsen

Kingwa didnt give warning. Just take order. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 Will let it run in more time before conclude if this is what I prefer.
 At the moment, the high really not my liking.


----------



## moonboy403

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ztsen* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Kingwa didnt give warning. Just take order. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Will let it run in more time before conclude if this is what I prefer.
 At the moment, the high really not my liking._

 

What amp are you comparing the Phoenix to?


----------



## scootermafia

The consensus is that Phoenix improves with time. Also, your sources and headphones will need upgrading to get the most of it (Ref1 and a good transport + HD800)


----------



## seaice

I am very happy with the Phoenix even on a weak source - only E-MU 0404 as transport > Zero DAC > Phoenix > Sennheiser HD600/AKG K701. I have over 400 hours on the Phoenix and both of my headphones sound much better with the Phoenix than sounded on the same source with Little Dot MkV that I used previously as headamp. I listen to almost everything, but most classic, jazz and some specific acoustic genres (fado etc.) – with LD MKV this music sounded very good (especially with AKG K701) but with the Phoenix both headphones are much better! I have Ref1 and HD800 on order so I hope in next improvements very soon... waiting on these new toys is really hard, as allways


----------



## scootermafia

Yea Phoenix makes anything sound pretty good but its potential is high for sure.


----------



## Skylab

My review unit finally arrived yesterday. It needs a good solid 10 days of break-in, though, according to Kingwa, and I have another amp ahead of it in the review queue, so it will be several weeks before I write it up. Still, just looking at and lifting up the Phoenix is an impressive thing - I'm not sure I have ever seen a more seriously built headphone amp than the Phoenix.


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My review unit finally arrived yesterday. It needs a good solid 10 days of break-in, though, according to Kingwa, and I have another amp ahead of it in the review queue, so it will be several weeks before I write it up. Still, just looking at and lifting up the Phoenix is an impressive thing - I'm not sure I have ever seen a more seriously built headphone amp than the Phoenix._

 

With your extensive experience with other great amps, I'm curious to read your comparison reviews asap. 

 In due course with proper break-in, of course.


----------



## gevorg

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My review unit finally arrived yesterday. It needs a good solid 10 days of break-in, though, according to Kingwa, and I have another amp ahead of it in the review queue, so it will be several weeks before I write it up. Still, just looking at and lifting up the Phoenix is an impressive thing - I'm not sure I have ever seen a more seriously built headphone amp than the Phoenix._

 

Will there be a "preview" or "initial impressions"?


----------



## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gevorg* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Will there be a "preview" or "initial impressions"? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

LOL - actually, probably not, since I am busy reviewing another big amp at the moment, and I'd rather not spend the time until it's burned in.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My review unit finally arrived yesterday. It needs a good solid 10 days of break-in, though, according to Kingwa, and I have another amp ahead of it in the review queue, so it will be several weeks before I write it up. Still, just looking at and lifting up the Phoenix is an impressive thing - I'm not sure I have ever seen a more seriously built headphone amp than the Phoenix._

 

Your going to have a lot of fun with this one Sky. Try it as a preamp to if you have a 2 channel speaker system. I'm loving mine in both roles but end up listening 80% of the time in preamp mode on the ref/speaker system. I'm just pushing past 400 hours with mine which means it's really starting to show it's stuff. 

 I look forward to your thoughts.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Peete.


----------



## Skylab

Thanks, looking forward to is as well. I will indeed try it as a preamp, in place of my Krell


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks, looking forward to is as well. I will indeed try it as a preamp, in place of my Krell 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

Krell ? Now there is an interesting thought......are you familiar with or experienced CAST (maybe your current pre has CAST I/O )?

 Peete.


----------



## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Krell ? Now there is an interesting thought......are you familiar with or experienced CAST (maybe your current pre has CAST I/O )?

 Peete._

 

No, my Krell pre-amp is in the area before CAST.


----------



## tim3320070

CAST does something substantial to the sound vs. XLR or RCA- smooths, refines it....something hard for me to describe but just better. I am referring to my FBI-500 (same preamp as Phoenix) with Ref-1 DAC. I have tested both (XLR and CAST) and there is something there to my ears that is an improvement with the CAST. I have truely never heard better music reproduction.


----------



## Shahrose

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My review unit finally arrived yesterday. It needs a good solid 10 days of break-in, though, according to Kingwa, and I have another amp ahead of it in the review queue, so it will be several weeks before I write it up. Still, just looking at and lifting up the Phoenix is an impressive thing - I'm not sure I have ever seen a more seriously built headphone amp than the Phoenix._

 

Will you also be testing the balanced outputs? I haven't seen balanced amps/headphones in your previous reviews.


----------



## pompon

What is the click sound you talking about ? Just when you "play" with the volume control or all time (like a data signal in the sound all time ? )


----------



## moonboy403

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pompon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What is the click sound you talking about ? Just when you "play" with the volume control or all time (like a data signal in the sound all time ? )_

 

Only while adjusting volume.


----------



## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Shahrose* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Will you also be testing the balanced outputs? I haven't seen balanced amps/headphones in your previous reviews._

 

I will be testing them when used as a pre-amp. My main speaker amp is a Sunfire Signature, which is balanced.

 But you are correct, I currently have no balanced headphones, although I am thinking of trying to pick up a pair of balanced DT880's to use in the review 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Also, I will be using the balanced inputs for the review - my Music Hall DAC is also balanced.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tim3320070* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_CAST does something substantial to the sound vs. XLR or RCA- smooths, refines it....something hard for me to describe but just better. I am referring to my FBI-500 (same preamp as Phoenix) with Ref-1 DAC. I have tested both (XLR and CAST) and there is something there to my ears that is an improvement with the CAST. I have truely never heard better music reproduction._

 

CAST/SATRI (CAST is the transmission, SATRI is the current amplification) does something substantial to the sound in his own products. They are designed that way. You are only getting 100% of the best possible sound quality when you run in that mode. When you are using XLR or RCA you are not taking full advantage of the Phoenix or any of his other products designed with CAST/SATRI. There are extra conversion processes that are taking places, voltage to current and then current back to voltage, when using XLR or RCA.

 My personal thoughts are that if you are going to use Audio-gd gear with CAST/SATRI, you should use ALL Audio-gd gear (or Krell gear) with CAST/SATRI, otherwise you will not be getting the most out of it.

 And Skylab, the Phoenix is designed as a balanced amp, so if you will only be able to test it with single-ended headphones, it surely won't receive the highest marks. I can tell you this with certainty.


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_CAST/SATRI_

 

Please don't use those two acronyms together like that.

 It looks too much like "CASTRATI." 

 *wince*

 *crossing legs*






 k


----------



## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_And Skylab, the Phoenix is designed as a balanced amp, so if you will only be able to test it with single-ended headphones, it surely won't receive the highest marks. I can tell you this with certainty._

 

Good thing I bought those balanced DT880's then


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Koyaan I. Sqatsi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Please don't use those two acronyms together like that.

 It looks too much like "CASTRATI." 

 *wince*

 *crossing legs*






 k_

 

LMAO. I only used both of those words in the first place because you have explained the reasons! Otherwise I'd still be calling it CAST.

 I always said the Phoenix had a lot of balls. Now I know why!


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_LMAO. I only used both of those words in the first place because you have explained the reasons! Otherwise I'd still be calling it CAST._

 

Oh, sure. Blame it on me.

  Quote:


 I always said the Phoenix had a lot of balls. Now I know why! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 

Um, PJ, "castrati" is umm... *sans* balls. 

 *wince*

 *crossing legs*

 k


----------



## Currawong

PJ: You make out CAST as being a necessity to use the Phoenix, as if even a balanced input isn't good enough. That couldn't be further from the truth. Ideally, of course, a CAST connection between one of the CAST-capable DACs and the Phoenix is most ideal, but mostly in that you can do away with expensive interconnects, as the CAST connection overcomes many of the issues with cables and other components. As I stated previously, between the stock CAST cables from Audio-gd and a pair of expensive Nordost Heimdall XLR cables between the Ref 1 and Phoenix, I thought there was nothing in it.

 However, since the Heimdalls are not known to be tonally neutral, but a bit mid-forward, I can't help wondering if my whole rig is truly "netural". I really need to get off my arse and RMAA things to see if I can't work out what's going on.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Koyaan I. Sqatsi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Um, PJ, "castrati" is umm... *sans* balls. 

 *wince*

 *crossing legs*

 k_

 

Yes, I know that, as I was inferring the Phoenix has taken them.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_PJ: You make out CAST as being a necessity to use the Phoenix, as if even a balanced input isn't good enough. That couldn't be further from the truth. Ideally, of course, a CAST connection between one of the CAST-capable DACs and the Phoenix is most ideal, but mostly in that you can do away with expensive interconnects, as the CAST connection overcomes many of the issues with cables and other components. As I stated previously, between the stock CAST cables from Audio-gd and a pair of expensive Nordost Heimdall XLR cables between the Ref 1 and Phoenix, I thought there was nothing in it.

 However, since the Heimdalls are not known to be tonally neutral, but a bit mid-forward, I can't help wondering if my whole rig is truly "netural". I really need to get off my arse and RMAA things to see if I can't work out what's going on._

 

No, I am not making it a necessity at all. I was quite pleased with the way the Phoenix sounded via XLR initially, but once I heard it compared to the balanced B22 I felt the Phoenix lacked in several important areas.

 After going the CAST/SATRI route I now know it is possible that the Phoenix can compete in those same areas (although I still do prefer using the HD800/Phoenix with the added resistance adapters). Yes, I feel the Ref1 (via CAST or XLR) is better than the modded DL3 which only uses XLR or RCA. However, I can still hear certain shortcomings of using XLR out from the Ref1 vs. XLR out from the DL3. There are extra conversions taking place within these Audio-gd components that wouldn't normally occur if you were using 99% of equipment out there that regulates voltage instead of current.

 So I'm not saying you can't or shouldn't use the Phoenix if you don't have a CAST/SATRI-based source, just that the Phoenix will perform its best with one. Even Kingwa will tell you that.


----------



## seacard

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Even Kingwa will tell you that._

 

Well, given that he gets to sell twice as many products if he tells you that, is that really a surprise? I'm not disagreeing with you that CAST sounds better, or that using XLR the sound quality is only 85% of CAST, but it just seems odd to use the word "even" there.


----------



## Currawong

Using what cables and are you sure it wasn't just a tonal difference?


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes, I know that, as I was inferring the Phoenix has taken them._

 

Ah, ok.

 But now the question is, taken them from *who*?







 *looking down*

 WHEW!

 Still got mine.






 k


----------



## scootermafia

You're also most likely to hear the benefits of CAST with headphones like the HD800. Btw at about 100 hours the Phoenix is getting more and more transparent and smooth.


----------



## ztsen

Kingwa told me the Phoenix need 400hr burn in time. Minus 100 at factory. So at least another 13 days. Dont need to play anything, also can use high volume to burn in together the volume resistors. Now why I know he named it after phoenix. You can really use a aluminium cup of coffee put it top of Phoenix to keep it warm. How nice. 
 He also mentioned that the volume click noise will go away by regularly turning the knob.


----------



## scootermafia

Kingwa's next step - hire professional knob turner to burn in knob.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Using what cables and are you sure it wasn't just a tonal difference?_

 

Sharkwire CAST and XLR cables made by Kingwa.


----------



## ztsen

Interesting. After 50hr, more clear and detail.
 No more stack the amp, to avoid the heat from power unit pass it over.


----------



## tosehee

I have little over 250+ hours, and it seems to be a beast. The CAST cable has finally shipped and trackable. I can't wait to try this on the CAST and hear all its glory.

 I am already quite impressed, so I don't know if it can do any better here. But, I am all for surprises.


----------



## ztsen

Hope Kingwa can come out more budget CAST DAC. No budget for Ref One now. ><


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tosehee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am already quite impressed, so I don't know if it can do any better here. But, I am all for surprises._

 

Sure it could. And using CAST with both pieces will definitely improve it.

 In this hobby, you can always get better. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 You could also get a better transport and some power regeneration down the line to improve things even further. It really kills your bank account though.


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sure it could. And using CAST with both pieces will definitely improve it.

 In this hobby, you can always get better. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 You could also get a better transport and some power regeneration down the line to improve things even further. It really kills your bank account though._

 

Talk about bank drain machine.. 

 well, I am planning for Power Condition at one point, but I am thinking of getting a audio rack first. Then maybe headphone cable, other ICs as needed, and then Power conditioner as the last.


----------



## DoYouRight

once you find what you want, this hobby becomes an almost endless money pit. It really does suck tosehee 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Wish we all had disposable income.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DoYouRight* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_once you find what you want, this hobby becomes an almost endless money pit. It really does suck tosehee 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Wish we all had disposable income._

 

I know I've spent a lot (and lots of saving to do so), but it pales in comparison to what some people here are able to afford. Which reminds me, I need to check my Mega Millions numbers to see if I'm a millionaire.... nope, but two people finally won and the jackpot was $333 million. If only....


----------



## FauDrei

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ztsen* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hope Kingwa can come out more budget CAST DAC. No budget for Ref One now. ><_

 

Yes, Ref One is definitely very high on my "want to have" list, but I also have similar budgeting problem... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ...but methinks there is an budget alternative to try CAST: get C-2C and DAC-19mk3. Since both gadgets have CAST modules, you just have to persuade Kingwa to swap a pair of RCA outputs on your DAC-19mk3 with a pair of CAST connectors and add a pair of the same CAST input connectors to your C-2C.

 Note though, that such "person" CAST I/O connectors would use unbalanced current signal (2 out of 4 pins) instead of proper CAST balanced current signal with inverted phase (all 4 CAST cable pins used). Not sure how this would reflect on the SQ, but logic says it should work and I would definitely try that...

 ...that is if I did not order Roc already... so for me 9mk3, Ref2 and Ref1 are the way to go.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *FauDrei* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Note though, that such "person" CAST I/O connectors would use unbalanced current signal (2 out of 4 pins) instead of proper CAST balanced current signal with inverted phase (all 4 CAST cable pins used). Not sure how this would reflect on the SQ, but logic says it should work and I would definitely try that..._

 

I'm not sure if it's the DC connectors, the CAST connectors, or both, but Kingwa said they use only 3 pins. I've been looking through my e-mails for the schematics of which pin does what, but it was a few months ago and the messages aren't loading.

 Edit: Found it. This is what Kingwa said when I asked about the CAST and DC connectors. Unfortunately I don't know if this applies to both, CAST, or DC.

 "Dear Philip,
 Yes they are 4pins.
 But you can use 3 wires+ shield.
 Kingwa"

 Then when I specifically asked him about the DC connectors, he said:

 "Dear Philip,
 The sockets and the plugs all mark No. 1,2,3,4. The DC cables is 
 1 GND,
 2 V+,
 3 V-,
 4 GND,
 The shield connect to GND of the amp box.
 Kingwa"


----------



## ztsen

Anyone have issue with the display switch off button? 
 Last night I switched off the display, it was complete off, normal.
 This morning the display show the reading with dimmer light but button still switched off.


----------



## moonboy403

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ztsen* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Anyone have issue with the display switch off button? 
 Last night I switched off the display, it was complete off, normal.
 This morning the display show the reading with dimmer light but button still switched off._

 

Off my memory, the dimmer switch on my particular Phoenix worked like this: 

 1) Display is off if volume is below 20.
 2) Display is dimmed if volume is above 20.


----------



## ztsen

Kingwa told me this is normal. But I dont understand is if the power of the display is cut, how come still have light? @@


----------



## tosehee

Skylab. If you could, try to review the Ref1 + Phoenix combo using the CAST. It's a totally different ball game. I just figured it out after nearly 2+ weeks of waiting on my own CAST cable.


----------



## moonboy403

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tosehee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Skylab. If you could, try to review the Ref1 + Phoenix combo using the CAST. It's a totally different ball game. I just figured it out after nearly 2+ weeks of waiting on my own CAST cable._

 

Can you describe these improvements brought on by using CAST?

 Also, I believe Skylab only got the Phoenix but not the REF1.


----------



## glitch39

Quick question again on the impedance adapter (100 ohms per channel) placed on HD800's for Phoenix amps .... I asked on this *thread* the reasoning behind why it worked and how that reasoning can be used on other amps and/or headphones.

 Did not really get a lot of responses so I am posting here instead. Thanks!


----------



## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tosehee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Skylab. If you could, try to review the Ref1 + Phoenix combo using the CAST. It's a totally different ball game. I just figured it out after nearly 2+ weeks of waiting on my own CAST cable._

 

That isn't going to happen, at least not at first. What ends up happening then is it becomes a system review, not an amp review. I want to review the Phoenix as an amp. I'm giving it a balanced source, and I picked up a pair of balanced DT880 600 ohm, which is great because I also have an unbalanced pair, so that will allow some good comparisons.


----------



## tim3320070

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That isn't going to happen, at least not at first. What ends up happening then is it becomes a system review, not an amp review. I want to review the Phoenix as an amp. I'm giving it a balanced source, and I picked up a pair of balanced DT880 600 ohm, which is great because I also have an unbalanced pair, so that will allow some good comparisons._

 

If you ever want to sell the balanced 880's, PM me.
 Tim


----------



## Currawong

I personally think that the only headphone rig capable for a good test of the Ref 1's capabilities would be a Blue Hawaii SE + Omega II rig. My HD-800s don't reveal as much detail as the O2/717 rig I borrowed does when I had it with the Ref 1 as source. For most intents and purposes, the benefit the CAST connection gives is, arguably, that you don't need high quality interconnects to get the most out of your rig.


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I personally think that the only headphone rig capable for a good test of the Ref 1's capabilities would be a Blue Hawaii SE + Omega II rig. My HD-800s don't reveal as much detail as the O2/717 rig I borrowed does when I had it with the Ref 1 as source. For most intents and purposes, the benefit the CAST connection gives is, arguably, that you don't need high quality interconnects to get the most out of your rig._

 

I don't believe in any cable/cord hypes, but CAST cables definitely make a difference to my hearing. Maybe it allows us to use the cheap cast cable instead of expensive xlr. Whatever it is, it does make a big difference.

 Regarding the Phoenix review, that definitely makes sense. How many people would dump their DAC just to get Phoenix?


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tosehee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't believe in any cable/cord hypes, but CAST cables definitely make a difference to my hearing. Maybe it allows us to use the cheap cast cable instead of expensive xlr. Whatever it is, it does make a big difference.

 Regarding the Phoenix review, that definitely makes sense. How many people would dump their DAC just to get Phoenix? _

 

Actually quite a few. I get lots of mail from people doing just that. Also because a lot of folks get the Phoenix and love it, they then naturally wonder about the REF1/Phoenix Combo

 .


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Actually quite a few. I get lots of mail from people doing just that. Also because a lot of folks get the Phoenix and love it, they then naturally wonder about the REF1/Phoenix Combo

 ._

 

That smiley has a reason for it.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tosehee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That smiley has a reason for it. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Ahhh, didn't notice how subtle you are!


----------



## moonboy403

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tosehee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't believe in any cable/cord hypes, but *CAST cables definitely make a difference to my hearing*. Maybe it allows us to use the cheap cast cable instead of expensive xlr. Whatever it is, it does make a big difference.

 Regarding the Phoenix review, that definitely makes sense. How many people would dump their DAC just to get Phoenix? _

 

Hey tosehee, can you describe the improvements brought on by using CAST as opposed to XLR?


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *moonboy403* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hey tosehee, can you describe the improvements brought on by using CAST as opposed to XLR?_

 

Well, there are a lot of people here with similar setup with a lot more experience and definitely better at reviewing than me. But to give my honest opinion..

 I used to use silver RCA before using CAST. Using cast, the sound is immediately more solid sounding. The sound seems flat and dry with RCA cable. The volume is also higher using CAST, so I had to lower it quite substantially. (I was using volume 25 with RCA and 14 or lower with CAST now).

 It's a lot more involving, more depth, transparent, and etc. The bass also has a lot more tightness and boost. 

 The sound signature is substantially different, and you can hear it right after you change the cable. I don't know if it's okay to night and day difference, but it's definitely quite a huge improvements from my setup.

 My custom silver cable is not an exotic one. I bought it from here used for $75, so your mileage may vary if you are using one of the top quality, quite expensive beast cables. Also, notice that I wasn't using XLR. 

 According to Kingwa and IpodPJ, if you rate CAST at 100, XLR is like 85 and RCA is like 60. I would hate to rate as such, but I guess you would hear less improvements if you are coming from xlr.


----------



## tosehee

Encountered another potential issues. Wondering if anyone experience the same.

 Having both RCA and CAST connected for comparison, I hear the sound in the input that do not have a connection.

 For example, RCA is conntected to input 1and cAST is one 3. When I rotate the selector to 2, I hear the sound while very soft and very low in volume. Same is for input 4 or 5.

 anyone else experience this?


----------



## IPodPJ

Yes. Originally he was going to implement a mute circuit but then for some reason he decided to eliminate it because it affected sound quality, not sure why.

 On another note, I received my custom Locus Design Group AGSS (formerly CAST) and Phoenix DC cables today. I'll try the DC cables when I get home, but I won't be able to try the AGSS cables until my new Ref1 comes in next week.


----------



## tim3320070

I guess the CAST term got some heat or something? It's a better name anyway. Kingwa needs to stop with the copied naming and be original.


----------



## tosehee

Ahh. So, this is perfectly normal.. Well, not perfectly in the sense of being flawless, but you know what i mean.


----------



## scootermafia

There's a reason why Kingwa is now stocking both the Phoenix and the Ref1 (according to his site at least). They're a popular combo and many people are starting to see it as an ultimate setup to aspire to own. It's my final setup, that's for sure.


----------



## ServinginEcuador

In case anyone is interested:

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f21/ca...owners-443235/


----------



## Currawong

I'll probably get around to making some new power cables for the Phoenix using Mundorf wire at some point. Now I think of it, I should ask Kingwa if he has ever tried expensive interconnects. I think it unlikely. 

 tosehee, I think what you are hearing are tonal differences for the most part. Trying Nordost Heimdall XLR vs. Van den Hul The Orchid XLR against each other, there are slight tonal differences. The AGSS (CAST) connection was most similar to the Heimdall, with more forward mids. With the Phoenix and HD-800, there was nothing in it between the Heimdall and the Shark AGSS/CAST cables. I want to try this again with a high-end Stax rig in the future though to see if there are differences in the level of detail.


----------



## IPodPJ

After spending more time with the cables Lee made for me (that I described in Doug's thread), I'm surprised at the results. They really open the amp up. It is much more dynamic now and the separation and imaging has improved. It's good to know that the Phoenix is capable of sounding better than it does stock. The Sharkwire just sounds flat in comparison.

 Looking at the specs for the Phoenix initially, I thought it might perform better than any other headphone amp. I found this to not be true when comparing it with the balanced B22, although it was very close. Could he have taken those spec measurements right from the amp board itself and not used in conjunction with the power supply or stock cable? It's performing closer to its full potential now, with the new cables I'm using.


----------



## scootermafia

I wonder if you even need to braid the wires or worry about their geometry if the signal is in current mode. I'm pretty nub at EE stuff but I'm not sure on this one.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *scootermafia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I wonder if you even need to braid the wires or worry about their geometry if the signal is in current mode. I'm pretty nub at EE stuff but I'm not sure on this one._

 

Not sure. You could ask Lee. He's familiar with Krell gear and making CAST cables.

 But there's also the DC power cables which can benefit from that.


----------



## ztsen

Thanks to youtube. No problem to solder my Denon to balanced. After 11 days, Phoenix really transform into another beast. Very good impression so far.


----------



## tosehee

Skycab. Review coming out soonish?


----------



## scootermafia

I built myself some OCC copper AGSS cables of my own design, they are a big improvement. They are simple, didn't do a ton of a wacky shielding and stuff on them. They sounds beautiful, a lot smoother less fatiguing sound, more finely placed instruments, just a luscious musical vibe. I definitely won't be going back to the stock.


----------



## MadMan007

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tim3320070* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I guess the CAST term got some heat or something? It's a better name anyway. Kingwa needs to stop with the copied naming and be original._

 

Well if he copies a technology it makes sense to copy the name.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *scootermafia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There's a reason why Kingwa is now stocking both the Phoenix and the Ref1 (according to his site at least). They're a popular combo and many people are starting to see it as an ultimate setup to aspire to own. It's my final setup, that's for sure._

 

Famous last words! (for your wallet)


----------



## IPodPJ

I'm still beta testing the DC cables. They need to be revised. While they improve many areas such as refinement and soundstage depth, they decrease the bass and apparent volume.

 I won't have a definitive answer on the ACSS cables until I've done more testing but I think they might need some revisions too.

 Kingwa seems to have built everything around the silver-plated copper Sharkwire cables so careful planning and trial and error should be taken when making your own cables. Spend time listening carefully, especially if you are using the HD800.


----------



## IPodPJ

I went back to using the thin, stock power cord on the Phoenix (a slightly thicker stock cable is still on my RE1). It just sounds better. I put my VD Master LE 2.0 on the Transporter. Very transparent now. I'm going to keep playing around though and see where I land.


----------



## ServinginEcuador

scootermafia,

 Sounds exactly like the cables I made. Glad to hear that I'm not the only one who prefers the DIY cables over the stock ones. Hopefully this catches on, and we get some really good ideas for the better options for this amp/DAC combo.

 BTW - I'm now testing a combination of TWCu CAST cables with the SCSCag DC power cables. Once I'm done I'll go with SCSCag CAST and TWCu DC power cables. Different combinations, hopefully different sound presentations. We'll see which one I prefer!


----------



## IPodPJ

OK, I landed with the VD Master LE 2.0 on the Transporter, VD Power 3 on the Phoenix and Cobalt Cable Ultimate Power on the Ref1. I put the Power 3 on the Phoenix and it gave me perfect bass. The transparency is just insanely on another level now. I had a stock cord on the Ref1 and it felt like it was missing a little bit of midrange and midbass; once I put the Cobalt in its place the tonality is spot on.

 I know this hobby is endless but I really think I'm finally there at the end. The Phoenix is no longer a runner up to the balanced B22 with the HD800. I'll have a few new HD800 cables soon but beyond that, I don't think I need to go any further.

 Doug, I'd really like you to come over soon and give me your opinion, especially since your system is very close to mine. I don't know what it is about the VD Master LE 2.0, but it does magic with transports. Every transport I've tried it with yields a pristine signal to the DAC (as good as the transport is able to transmit, of course).

 And even with the regenerator, there's something about listening in these early morning hours -- the power is so clean.


----------



## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tosehee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Skycab. Review coming out soonish?_

 

Probably sometime next week.


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Probably sometime next week._

 

Looking forward to it.


----------



## seacard

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tosehee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Looking forward to it._

 

Stupid question, I know, but I'm genuinely curious: Once you've heard a piece of gear yourself and have already purchased it, why would you care about another member's review? I always thought reviews were for somebody who is trying to make up his mind on a product, but you already know what the amp sounds like and whether you like it.


----------



## haloxt

It's always fun to compare your own observations with others. Also I've left my phoenix on for almost a week straight and like what I'm hearing. If you feel comfortable with leaving things on and don't mind the electricity bill I recommend leaving your audio-gd gear powered on 24/7 until 1000 hours. My audio-gd gear changes more over time than my Ultrasone headphones (except icans which sound worse than crap at 0 hours).


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *seacard* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Stupid question, I know, but I'm genuinely curious: Once you've heard a piece of gear yourself and have already purchased it, why would you care about another member's review? I always thought reviews were for somebody who is trying to make up his mind on a product, but you already know what the amp sounds like and whether you like it._

 

Well, I'd like to know how it compares to other competing products. You see, I bought this based on user reviews here, but most people do not have or heard the as many products as Skylab. While the user impressions can be exaggerated a bit, Skylab's review has been very objective.

 This hobby is never ending thing. I don't think I will stay with Audio-Gd forever. It's always good to hear someone else's opinion on it, especially from reputable person like Skylab. And if the review isn't as favorable as I originally thought about to be, then I'd like to buy other and listen for myself. It's a journey, you see.


----------



## vcoheda

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *seacard* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Once you've heard a piece of gear yourself and have already purchased it, why would you care about another member's review?_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It's always fun to compare your own observations with others._

 

x2

 and often, i am more curious about observations/impressions of equipment i own (or owned) as opposed to equipment i do not.


----------



## seacard

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tosehee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well, I'd like to know how it compares to other competing products. You see, I bought this based on user reviews here, but most people do not have or heard the as many products as Skylab. While the user impressions can be exaggerated a bit, Skylab's review has been very objective.

 This hobby is never ending thing. I don't think I will stay with Audio-Gd forever. It's always good to hear someone else's opinion on it, especially from reputable person like Skylab. And if the review isn't as favorable as I originally thought about to be, then I'd like to buy other and listen for myself. It's a journey, you see. _

 

Huh, interesting; thanks! I guess I'm the oddball then because once I've heard something and made up my mind on how it sounds, I don't care what anybody says. If they agree, then great. If they disagree, then we hear things differently. Regardless, having read Skylab's previous reviews over the past few years, I am sure his review of the Phoenix will be very favorable.

 I recently traded away my Phoenix and hope the new owner is enjoying it.


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *seacard* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Huh, interesting; thanks! I guess I'm the oddball then because once I've heard something and made up my mind on how it sounds, I don't care what anybody says. If they agree, then great. If they disagree, then we hear things differently. Regardless, having read Skylab's previous reviews over the past few years, I am sure his review of the Phoenix will be very favorable.

 I recently traded away my Phoenix and hope the new owner is enjoying it._

 

How would you know what you are missing unless you do the comparison? If all I heard is mp3 player, then that's all I know. I'd like to audition everything there is, but I don't have the resources/money/time to do so. That's why I research, read, and ask before making a purchase. Once purchased though, I still wonder how it compares to other competing ones. Maybe Phoenix is lacking some areas where I can find it another amp. But then, I can't buy or audition that myself here. Which is why I rely on Skylab's and other reputable reviewers here.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *seacard* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Huh, interesting; thanks! I guess I'm the oddball then because once I've heard something and made up my mind on how it sounds, I don't care what anybody says. If they agree, then great. If they disagree, then we hear things differently. Regardless, having read Skylab's previous reviews over the past few years, I am sure his review of the Phoenix will be very favorable.

 I recently traded away my Phoenix and hope the new owner is enjoying it._

 

Is there a lot of interesting subtlety to your post, or am I just reading too much into it?

 Like, why would you *assume* a *"very favorable" *review? Is that all he does when he gets free gear?

 Then you follow that up with, you sold yours, may it live happily somewhere other than your house?

 .


----------



## seacard

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tosehee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How would you know what you are missing unless you do the comparison?_

 

Yeah, I see what you're saying. I've owned probably around 15-20 amps, so I guess I have more of a baseline of what I like, what I don't like, so the comparative reviews don't do much for me unless it's about a product I have not heard but am considering purchasing. But I understand where you're coming from.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is there a lot of interesting subtlety to your post, or am I just reading too much into it?

 Like, why would you *assume* a *"very favorable" *review? Is that all he does when he gets free gear?

 Then you follow that up with, you sold yours, may it live happily somewhere other than your house?_

 







 But seriously, I think you're probably reading more into it than I intended. It is true that Skylab's reviews tend to generally be very favorable, even of products that I found to be mediocre in sound and awful in value. However, this is par for the course in this hobby, and I enjoy reading his reviews as much as the next guy even if we may disagree about the ultimate conclusion.

 Also, I was interested in a pair of K1000s and the Phoenix turned out to be the cost. I enjoyed the Phoenix when I owned it, and it is not outside the realm of possibilities that I will own another one. I think the Phoenix is a great value at $1200 for the versatility that it offers. I currently own the Phonitor, which was more expensive, and while I like it better than the Phoenix single-ended, it doesn't offer me the option of going balanced, or using CAST connectors, or some other features that the Phoenix allows. If I was in the market for a balanced solid-state at around $1000, I would say the Phoenix is the biggest no brainer in the history of Earth. (now _that's_ subtlety.)


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *seacard* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yeah, I see what you're saying. I've owned probably around 15-20 amps, so I guess I have more of a baseline of what I like, what I don't like, so the comparative reviews don't do much for me unless it's about a product I have not heard but am considering purchasing. But I understand where you're coming from.








 But seriously, I think you're probably reading more into it than I intended. It is true that Skylab's reviews tend to generally be very favorable, even of products that I found to be mediocre in sound and awful in value. However, this is par for the course in this hobby, and I enjoy reading his reviews as much as the next guy even if we may disagree about the ultimate conclusion.

 Also, I was interested in a pair of K1000s and the Phoenix turned out to be the cost. I enjoyed the Phoenix when I owned it, and it is not outside the realm of possibilities that I will own another one. I think the Phoenix is a great value at $1200 for the versatility that it offers. I currently own the Phonitor, which was more expensive, and while I like it better than the Phoenix single-ended, it doesn't offer me the option of going balanced, or using CAST connectors, or some other features that the Phoenix allows. If I was in the market for a balanced solid-state at around $1000, I would say the Phoenix is the biggest no brainer in the history of Earth. (now that's subtlety.) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Gotcha!

 .


----------



## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *seacard* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_But seriously, I think you're probably reading more into it than I intended. It is true that Skylab's reviews tend to generally be very favorable, even of products that I found to be mediocre in sound and awful in value. However, this is par for the course in this hobby, and I enjoy reading his reviews as much as the next guy even if we may disagree about the ultimate conclusion.
_

 

I certainly don't expect people to agree with me - I appreciate that you nonetheless enjoy readind my reviews, thanks.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is there a lot of interesting subtlety to your post, or am I just reading too much into it?

 Like, why would you *assume* a *"very favorable" *review? Is that all he does when he gets free gear?



 ._

 

I hesitated to even dignify this with a response, but I worried that someone would take my lack of response as some kind of tacit agreement. I have published negative reviews before, several times, to the point where the manufacturers have asked me to pull the reviews, and in one case even asked me to change them! Which I have not and would not.

 Most of the products I get for review I do think sound good. That's my opinion of them, and is my unbiased opinion, regardless of whatever wild conspiracy theories anyone would like to cook up. Disagree with my findings all you like, but please refrain from the integrity shots.


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MadMan007* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well if he copies a technology it makes sense to copy the name._

 

Not when the name is someone else's trademark.

 k


----------



## n_maher

This off-topic stuff has gone on long enough.


----------



## ztsen

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It's always fun to compare your own observations with others. Also I've left my phoenix on for almost a week straight and like what I'm hearing. If you feel comfortable with leaving things on and don't mind the electricity bill I recommend leaving your audio-gd gear powered on 24/7 until 1000 hours. My audio-gd gear changes more over time than my Ultrasone headphones (except icans which sound worse than crap at 0 hours)._

 

I have asked Kingwa if I still need to continue burn/turn on after 400 hours (including factory burn 100hr), he said not required, I may turn off when not using.


----------



## ztsen

My friend kind enough to lend me HD800 for a day. He has been complaining it sibilances with his Solo amp. But doesnt seem to be with Phoenix. Perphaps, my D5k and K702 also no sibilance with Phoenix.


----------



## ttnl

hello all, I have just received the Phoenix today. I have a question though. Why does the PSU have 2 Data out, but the Amp has only 1 Data in? Does it matter what Data out I choose to use? Thank you.


----------



## seaice

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ztsen* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My friend kind enough to lend me HD800 for a day. He has been complaining it sibilances with his Solo amp. But doesnt seem to be with Phoenix. Perphaps, my D5k and K702 also no sibilance with Phoenix._

 

I found the HD800 to be very revealing in a good sense. Quality of sibilance depends on the quality of the recording, I think. If they are on the recording more than should be, than you can hear it in the HD800 with Phoenix. There is no sibilance problem with HD800 and Phoenix when the recording is well done, at least in my ears. AKG k701 and Sennheiser HD600 have no sibilance problem with the Phoenix too, but HD800 reveals more about the true of sibilance aspect in the recording and the Phoenix is well done in this aspect in my opinion.


----------



## seaice

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ttnl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_hello all, I have just received the Phoenix today. I have a question though. Why does the PSU have 2 Data out, but the Amp has only 1 Data in? Does it matter what Data out I choose to use? Thank you._

 

It does not matter, which data out you choose, I hear no difference, but you must allways connect the data out to the data in, of course


----------



## pompon

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The Phoenix is no longer a runner up to the balanced B22 with the HD800._

 

Sorry, my english is limited ... what that mean ?

 Phoenix better than B22 balanced or B22 still better to the Phoenix ?


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pompon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sorry, my english is limited ... what that mean ?

 Phoenix better than B22 balanced or B22 still better to the Phoenix ?_

 

Well I think I've got my system to the point where it sounds as good, but that's just from memory. I would need the B22 next to it to really compare. I still may have a B22 built, not sure -- but if I do it will have SATRI inputs.


----------



## scootermafia

Is a currentmode B22 even possible?


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *scootermafia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is a currentmode B22 even possible?_

 

Indeed...


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *scootermafia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is a currentmode B22 even possible?_

 

Depends on whether you're meaning current mode to mean CAST or SATRI.

 If you're meaning it to be CAST, then sure, just need some sort of I/V conversion ahead of the B22.

 If you're meaning SATRI, well, that's another matter.

 The whole thing about SATRI is that the circuit's voltage "gain" is accomplished via a transconductance amplifier driving a simple resistor, so all you'd really need is an output buffer.

 However the B22 is your standard LIN amplifier (input/VAS/output). So it doesn't make much sense to employ SATRI only to feed it into a second voltage amplifier (what some here call "double amping").

 k


----------



## scootermafia

Yeah, I didn't quite see the point of doing that with a B22....i guess it would be handy if it could connect to the ref1 but you would have to change a few things...


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *scootermafia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yeah, I didn't quite see the point of doing that with a B22....i guess it would be handy if it could connect to the ref1 but you would have to change a few things..._

 

That would be the point. And I guarantee that the person who builds it would sell quite a few of them.


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *scootermafia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yeah, I didn't quite see the point of doing that with a B22....i guess it would be handy if it could connect to the ref1 but you would have to change a few things..._

 

Off the top of my head, that shouldn't require more than to add the CAST connectors and just wire a couple of resistors across them for your I/V conversion. That would simply feed the B22's volume control.

 k


----------



## Audio-Omega

Has anyone compared Phoenix to RSA Apache ?


----------



## Bob Jones

The Apache was my choice to buy after hearing it.But I took a chance on the Phoenix thinking I could sell it if dissappointed.However I don't remember the Apache well to compare.


----------



## t/sound

The journey>>>>>> Here we are right now >>>>>>>What lies ahead ?

 I must say this point in the poor man's search for musical nirvana has made the journey very rewarding.

 The future holds a transporter, moddified of course, a good computer library, then we tackle the balanced issue.

 The DX 1000 sounds very good SE so does the 701. 

 Has anybody balanced a JVC DX 1000, comments?

 Shade to all and thanks for all the comments, rants, raves and help.


----------



## soundlogic

I am happy to report I received my shipment of Phoenix/Ref-1 last week, but as an L.A.County Fireman who has been pre-occupied with the fires and memorials for our Fallen Brothers, I just got around to opening the box. Much to my happiness...every piece was packed well, perfect cosmetic condition, NOT adorned with a bunch of stickers,...and most important...SOUNDS AWESOME! I am putting a few days straight of burn-in, while at work, and will be able to critically assess things better next week. But, after a few hours, I strongly agree with the majority of owners regarding it's sound. Based on using the ACSS connections, in my opinion, this combo is a sonic bargain and a no-brainer for "best bang for the buck" in it's price range.


----------



## FauDrei

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *t/sound* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The future holds a transporter, moddified of course, a good computer library, then we tackle the balanced issue._

 

Personally, if you have Re-1 - what do you need Transporter for? IMO Duet with just digital mods would do the trick with more usable functionality and for much less...

 Also, as a fresh Roc (baby Phoenix) owner, I suggest you to tackle the balanced issue sooner. Sure, K701 behave nicely on Roc's SE, but balanced is superior. Differences are not night and day but there is more of everything with balanced... very addictive and there is no turning back to SE. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 But hey, it is your journey (and your money), enjoy it any way you like!

 BTW, where have you found those "legs" for all of your A-GD gear? How did you managed to swap them with original ones?


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *FauDrei* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Personally, if you have Re-1 - what do you need Transporter for? IMO Duet with just digital mods would do the trick with more usable functionality and for much less..._

 

The Duet does not have more functionality than the Transporter, not even close... nor does the sound quality of the digital output on the Duet equal the Transporter. In this case, you get what you pay for.

 The Duet is excellent for its price and with a regulated power supply and custom cables performs well beyond other transports that cost a multitude of it. I was very happy with it when I owned it.


----------



## jimmychan

I am looking forward to Kingwa's Ref 3 with Duet/PC to compare with CD7 or other transporters.


----------



## scootermafia

Phoenix SE does not sound that good. Definitely get those cans balanced ASAP. It's a lot cheaper of a problem than it was to get all that gear on that rack in the first place.


----------



## t/sound

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *FauDrei* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Personally, if you have Re-1 - what do you need Transporter for? IMO Duet with just digital mods would do the trick with more usable functionality and for much less...

 Also, as a fresh Roc (baby Phoenix) owner, I suggest you to tackle the balanced issue sooner. Sure, K701 behave nicely on Roc's SE, but balanced is superior. Differences are not night and day but there is more of everything with balanced... very addictive and there is no turning back to SE. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But hey, it is your journey (and your money), enjoy it any way you like!

 BTW, where have you found those "legs" for all of your A-GD gear? How did you managed to swap them with original ones?_

 


 These are the reasons for the "legs"

 1) Elevate the gods, get some ventilation going
 2) Levitate the gods, prevent all unholy earthly vibrations from reaching the gods
 3) Equality to the gods, uniform factor.
 4) Heavenly wife can remove unholy dust without disturbing gods restingplace.

 You can find legs at vintage audio ebay china / solid non-magnetic aluminium blocks suspended on surgical steel bearings. Instalation realy simple.

 Point taken, will go balanced first then change source.

 Will S/B Duet + better power source and digital out mod outperform the Touch/ Wadia I 170?

 How much sound mileage does the transporter add above noted sources?

 Good shade to all.


----------



## FauDrei

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The Duet does not have more functionality than the Transporter, not even close... nor does the sound quality of the digital output on the Duet equal the Transporter. In this case, you get what you pay for._

 

The Duet's Receiver functionality in my setup is to receive the wireless stream of lossless music and to transfer those ones and zeroes to it's SPDIF digital out RCA. It does it flawlessly.

 The Duet's Controller functionality is to browse and select music that I want to hear while lying somewhere in the room. It does it very good.

 Now, I am reluctant to believe that I need Transporter (which costs cca. five multitudes of Duet) to stream the same zeros and ones and that it does this so much better than Duet's Receiver (especially if you mod the digital out section and swap its SPDIF RCA out for a nice BNC female connector). Also I find Duet's Controller with its color screen much more handy and usable for browsing and selecting music that I want to hear while lying back somewhere off the computer table and off audio rack with some nice headphones on. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But, of course, experiences may vary... as they do in PJ's and my case.

 ...and this is also Phoenix's thread so we should, perhaps, focus more on Phoenix...


----------



## DoYouRight

most here love phoenix and now wish to complete the godly rig, accessories are no biggy, since most here share same amp and dac.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Nice rack t/sound 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Congrats on the nearly "full monty" system....looks good ! Controlling vibration is always a worthy persuit when it comes to electronics (for audio).

 I agree with the other folks here...get those cans balanced as soon as you can afford to do so !

 Peete.


----------



## Mogos

Have somebody of you guys heard Little Dot MK VI. Big difference beteen Little Dot and Phoenix? Does my question have any sense?


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *FauDrei* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Now, I am reluctant to believe that I need Transporter (which costs cca. five multitudes of Duet) to stream the same zeros and ones and that it does this so much better than Duet's Receiver (especially if you mod the digital out section and swap its SPDIF RCA out for a nice BNC female connector). Also I find Duet's Controller with its color screen much more handy and usable for browsing and selecting music that I want to hear while lying back somewhere off the computer table and off audio rack with some nice headphones on. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 :_

 

You can use the Duet remote with the Transporter. However, the iPod Touch with iPeng works much better.


----------



## FauDrei

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You can use the Duet remote with the Transporter. However, the iPod Touch with iPeng works much better._

 

 Did not know about iPeng... another good reason to get iPod Touch.

 Thanks PJ


----------



## Nada

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Mogos* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ Edit: any impressions of the LD VI vs the Phoenix?_

 

I personally find this question interesting. I have the LD VI but haven't access to the Phoenix in Australia and wonder about the comparison. Comparing a tube amp to a solid state is a questionable thing to do but since both these amps are balanced and high value Chinese designs, I for one would like to hear about anyone's impressions please.


----------



## atothex

Checking in once again...
 Has anyone compared to a well-built balanced M^3, CKKIII or Dynamid? Searching only brings me to my previous (exactly the same) query.
 BTW I have no idea how to search for "M3" or "M^3".


----------



## DoYouRight

IpodPJ are you gonna get a Squeezebox touch? Alot of forums are saying it outdates the transporter and is cheaper. You can directly connect a usb drive to it. Would like to see a comparison of the two if you get one.


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DoYouRight* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_IpodPJ are you gonna get a Squeezebox touch? Alot of forums are saying it outdates the transporter and is cheaper. You can directly connect a usb drive to it. Would like to see a comparison of the two if you get one._

 

I've done research on it as well, but it doesn't outdates the transporter as a transporter, nor as a dac.

 It's got a better clocking/jitter reduction than SB3/Duet, but not in a league of transporter. At least, that's what I read from one of the beta tester who happens to have all 3. But I read that its spdif performance is A LOT better than SB3..

 I am planning to buy this one as my transport at this point and mod the rca to bnc.


----------



## DoYouRight

I think I will do the same. I read it has better support for usb drives can not use a pc at all. And a forum was saying it outdated the transporter not my oppinion necessarily


----------



## tosehee

yes. It's off-topic to Phoenix, but it really looks like a good transport with 24/96 ability. The question is where to order to get it now.


----------



## scootermafia

I had an M3. The Phoenix beats the stuffing out of it. It is so relentlessly powerful.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DoYouRight* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_IpodPJ are you gonna get a Squeezebox touch? Alot of forums are saying it outdates the transporter and is cheaper. You can directly connect a usb drive to it. Would like to see a comparison of the two if you get one._

 

No interest in it. There is nothing special about it other than it's ability to play 24/96 music (which the Transporter does) and USB/memory card input. It does not have high quality power supplies or components like the Transporter. It uses a switching power supply just like the other Squeeboxes. The SB is excellent for it's price, no doubt. I owned one before this, and still have the regulated power supply I purchased for it (see my signature). The Transporter is in another league though.

 I would be happy to compare the two if you get one and want me to compare them for you.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *scootermafia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I had an M3. The Phoenix beats the stuffing out of it. It is so relentlessly powerful._

 

Wait until you see what I'm having built.


----------



## atothex

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *scootermafia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I had an M3. The Phoenix beats the stuffing out of it. It is so relentlessly powerful._

 

Was this balanced vs balanced or single ended vs single ended? Did you have a Sigma22? Source and phones same as your sig, I assume?

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wait until you see what I'm having built. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Still based on the Phoenix design or something else entirely?


----------



## h.rav

^ I bet he's building a Beta 22.


----------



## IPodPJ

Ssshh.. Stop guessing. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 When it's done in, I don't know, a month or two, you'll see it.
 (Something borrowed, something new, something black and something blue. And something two.)


----------



## h.rav

ε22


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *h.rav* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_





ε22



_

 






 It is not going to be a conventional B22. (And we probably won't be using the backplanes.)


----------



## tosehee

Don't be so sure.

 Here is a direct quote from a guy who worked on the spdif output for SB touch.

  Quote:


 seanadams's Avatar 
 seanadams seanadams is offline
 Founder, Slim Devices

 Join Date: Apr 2005
 Posts: 2,719
 seanadams is on a distinguished road
 Default
 Quote:
 Originally Posted by dwc View Post
 Well if you helped them to get the S/PDIF right, then that's great for us running our own dac's (and digital Panasonic head units).
 I haven't been in the loop on this for a long time, but I have high confidence that it was done well. The electrical part of it is basically the same as for Transporter's RCA output - a discrete flip flop reclocks the s/pdif signal on the way out. Touch does s/pdif in software sort of like SB3, but a big ARM SOC is a somewhat hostile environment for the clock path, so clocking it away from the main die was called for (similarly, SB3 does this in a CPLD). Ultimately, s/pdif performance will be at least as good as SB3 and not far from Transporter, although all the products are extremely good in this regard.

 Quote:
 Do you have any info on the comparitive jitter of optical vs. RCA for this unit? On the SB3, iirc you stated RCA was a tiny bit better.
 TOSLINK (as observed at a receiving device) is always worse, like +100 to 200 ps regardless of how good the source is. Coax is the only way to go if you care about jitter, although optical has the advantage of being inherently isolated which could help in a system having EMI or ground loop problems. That's why you get both... Vive la différence. 
 

If I read above correctly, the SPDIF performance of Touch is quite up to Transporter even though it may not be at exact performance level.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No interest in it. There is nothing special about it other than it's ability to play 24/96 music (which the Transporter does) and USB/memory card input. It does not have high quality power supplies or components like the Transporter. It uses a switching power supply just like the other Squeeboxes. The SB is excellent for it's price, no doubt. I owned one before this, and still have the regulated power supply I purchased for it (see my signature). The Transporter is in another league though.

 I would be happy to compare the two if you get one and want me to compare them for you._


----------



## Skylab

FYI, for those interested: 

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f5/rev...lifier-445766/


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_FYI, for those interested: 

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f5/rev...lifier-445766/_

 

Cool. Off to read..


----------



## DoYouRight

so your going for a B22, isnt that confirming its better than pheonix ipod?


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DoYouRight* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_so your going for a B22, isnt that confirming its better than pheonix ipod?_

 

Isn't that more like his preference? I don't think his own direction or decision speaks for the general SQ differences between the two. One might like B22 more and another group might like Phoenix more. 

 In the end, it's really a personal taste.


----------



## Yikes

Read through this and other threads and one thing becomes clear about what Ipod likes, and that is that he doesn't know what it is that he likes. He's been back and forth so many times that it'd make anyone dizzy trying to keep track what it is that he likes.

 He'll love his "Special" new amp, that is until something else piques his interest; it's very ADD like.

 Sorry I know that's kind of harsh, but there are people out there who pay attention to what he says and his opinions vacillate so frequently that I for one discount almost every word he says.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Read through this and other threads and one thing becomes clear about what Ipod likes, and that is that he doesn't know what it is that he likes. He's been back and forth so many times that it'd make anyone dizzy trying to keep track what it is that he likes.

 He'll love his "Special" new amp, that is until something else piques his interest; it's very ADD like.

 Sorry I know that's kind of harsh, but there are people out there who pay attention to what he says and his opinions vacillate so frequently that I for one discount almost every word he says._


----------



## luvdunhill

. Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Read through this and other threads and one thing becomes clear about what Ipod likes, and that is that he doesn't know what it is that he likes. He's been back and forth so many times that it'd make anyone dizzy trying to keep track what it is that he likes.

 He'll love his "Special" new amp, that is until something else piques his interest; it's very ADD like.

 Sorry I know that's kind of harsh, but there are people out there who pay attention to what he says and his opinions vacillate so frequently that I for one discount almost every word he says._


----------



## DoYouRight

les that was fantastic


----------



## atothex

I fully expect PJ to be entirely out of the Audio-gd game within a couple months, just like with his Denons.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *atothex* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I fully expect PJ to be entirely out of the Audio-gd game within a couple months, just like with his Denons._

 

Ya mean like Ricochet Rabbit!


+ YouTube Video​ _*ERROR:* If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed._


----------



## swt61

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wait until you see what I'm having built. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

A Popemobile to dodge the tomatoes I'd like to throw at you?


----------



## h.rav

I'm not surprised he's getting a B22, he's always wanted a Beta 22. I wonder if he's going to get a Buffalo DAC to replace his RE1 once he auditions one.


----------



## tosehee

What's wrong with trying different things? I mean after all, it's his money...?

 I don't know why people are attacking him like this. I am not affiliated with him or anything, but isn't it what we all do here? how many people bought Ref1 + Phoenix without trying out other products in the past? If I audition Buffalo DAC or whatever in the future and I like what I hear, I will jump ship as well. I have no royalty to any product or the manufacturer.


----------



## Icarium

Because he hypes the crap out of whatever he has. What's the best amp for HD800s? Ipodpj: "Audio-gd phoenix fed by audio-gd reference dac1" repeat x100000 with the force of a bullet train.

 And now he upgrades? People are just anticipating the "Beta22 is the hands down true best HD800 headphone amp" x1000000 posts until he "discovers" a new amp. 

 Well whatever floats his boat, but hopefully at some point he will realize that it's possible he hasn't heard every decent amp out there yet and coaches his advice accordingly with such a caveat and maybe tones down in general.

 It sure sucks to be someone who bought an audio-gd phoenix anticipating it to be the best EVAR because while IpodPJ can afford to move up maybe they can't... ohwell buyer beware and all that.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DoYouRight* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_so your going for a B22, isnt that confirming its better than pheonix ipod?_

 

Not necessarily. I didn't say I was going to get rid of the Phoenix. Once I have them side by side it will be easier to make that assessment. They offer different flavors.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *atothex* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I fully expect PJ to be entirely out of the Audio-gd game within a couple months, just like with his Denons._

 

Your dead wrong about that. The B22 is going to be customized with current signal inputs in addition to XLR.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Icarium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Because he hypes the crap out of whatever he has. What's the best amp for HD800s? Ipodpj: "Audio-gd phoenix fed by audio-gd reference dac1" repeat x100000 with the force of a bullet train.

 And now he upgrades? People are just anticipating the "Beta22 is the hands down true best HD800 headphone amp" x1000000 posts until he "discovers" a new amp. 

 Well whatever floats his boat, but hopefully at some point he will realize that it's possible he hasn't heard every decent amp out there yet and coaches his advice accordingly with such a caveat and maybe tones down in general.

 It sure sucks to be someone who bought an audio-gd phoenix anticipating it to be the best EVAR because while IpodPJ can afford to move up maybe they can't... ohwell buyer beware and all that._

 

If you go back through the thread, you'll find that up until I heard the balanced B22 I preferred the Phoenix over every other amp I heard the HD800 with. And I never stated the B22 was better. I said it does some things better, while the Phoenix does others.

 You're all putting words in my mouth. How many of you have more than one amp? I'm not allowed to like two amps?


----------



## XXII

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Your dead wrong about that. The B22 is going to be customized with current signal inputs in addition to XLR._

 

Could you explain how this works? Isn't the Beta22 designed to amplify voltage signals?


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Icarium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Because he hypes the crap out of whatever he has. What's the best amp for HD800s? Ipodpj: "Audio-gd phoenix fed by audio-gd reference dac1" repeat x100000 with the force of a bullet train.

 And now he upgrades? People are just anticipating the "Beta22 is the hands down true best HD800 headphone amp" x1000000 posts until he "discovers" a new amp. 

 Well whatever floats his boat, but hopefully at some point he will realize that it's possible he hasn't heard every decent amp out there yet and coaches his advice accordingly with such a caveat and maybe tones down in general.

 It sure sucks to be someone who bought an audio-gd phoenix anticipating it to be the best EVAR because while IpodPJ can afford to move up maybe they can't... ohwell buyer beware and all that._

 

Agreed. However, the Phoenix can stand on it's own at it's price point with no issues. My DV337SE bests it *very* slightly in the bass slam. They are VERY close in the bass, the Phoenix just slightly less so. And I mean you have to listen for it. Everywhere else the Phoenix is more enjoyable and has more tube like smoothness than most tube amps I've heard.

 To get a Phoenix level in a B22, 3x the $$$ if you have to pay someone to do it. That puts the Phoenix in mighty fine company. The Phoenix is what I bought in lieu of building a B22. 

 The problem I always had with the *"enthusiasm"* is that* this outcome* was so predictable. If you want to discount what he says, you gotta kind of cut both ways with the discount. 

 Don't lambaste the product based on the performance of the Court Jester.

 Ohhh, by he way...

*[size=small]The Circus is Back in Town!![/size]*

 p.s. If they ever bring back the Loacal HiFi store, he'd be just like the best salesman I've ever seen work at those places. They were all about FOTM infatuation.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *XXII* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Could you explain how this works? Isn't the Beta22 designed to amplify voltage signals?_

 

The same way the Ref1 outputs to XLR. With an I/V resistor to convert current to voltage. In the Ref1, Kingwa is using a 0db buffer after the resistor. I know the XLR outputs could be improved by modifying it, but instead of doing that I am going to handle the conversion inside the B22. It will take some experimentation to find the best impedance match.

 The other way to do it is to use 4 current modules from Kingwa to receive the current signal and then convert it to voltage -- but it just adds to the complexity and isn't really necessary.


----------



## The Monkey

Meh, who cares if iPod gets a B22. It just means he's seen the light. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It also is a lesson to those members who choose to hang on every word of reviewers. Think for yourself, do your research, and formulate your own opinion. You can rest assured that when someone around here raves about a piece of gear as the second coming, there almost certainly will shortly be an even better thing, er, coming.

 Anyway, iPod, I recommend carefully considering how much you tweak the B22. I have no doubt it is in the hands of a capable builder, but the B22 can be twitchy. And, as you have recently found with the REF1, the more you tweak, the more likely the twitch. Anyway, good luck with the B22.


----------



## The Monkey

Double Post FTL.


----------



## XXII

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The same way the Ref1 outputs to XLR. With an I/V resistor to convert current to voltage. In the Ref1, Kingwa is using a 0db buffer after the resistor. I know the XLR outputs could be improved by modifying it, but instead of doing that I am going to handle the conversion inside the B22. It will take some experimentation to find the best impedance match.

 The other way to do it is to use 4 current modules from Kingwa to receive the current signal and then convert it to voltage -- but it just adds to the complexity and isn't really necessary._

 

So it's not really using the current signal then. Can the I/V be really improved by that much compared to the Ref-1?


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *The Monkey* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Meh, who cares if iPod gets a B22. It just means he's seen the light. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It also is a lesson to those members who choose to hang on every word of reviewers. Think for yourself, do your research, and formulate your own opinion. You can rest assured that when someone around here raves about a piece of gear as the second coming, there almost certainly will shortly be an even better thing, er, coming.

 Anyway, iPod, I recommend carefully considering how much you tweak the B22. I have no doubt it is in the hands of a capable builder, but the B22 can be twitchy. And, as you have recently found with the REF1, the more you tweak, the more likely the twitch. Anyway, good luck with the B22._

 

Thank you, Monkey. Nothing is going to be tweaked as far as the boards go or the power supplies. This is solely limited to the current input and is most likely going to be passive, but we may go the active route - not sure yet. (I'm learning about this from the builder as we go along.) Both internal and external designs need to be figured out first. The builder is obviously going to do the preliminary board layout, and I will be designing the work and laser etching done to the chassis. What I am fairly certain about is that it will be a 5 board build with a separate power supply chassis for dual sigmas - L&R 3-pin, 4-pin, and 1/4".

 I think we should continue this in a different thread thread though. The only relevance is to the current signal input.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *XXII* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So it's not really using the current signal then. Can the I/V be really improved by that much compared to the Ref-1?_

 

To be determined.


----------



## scootermafia

PJ is just someone that isn't willing to settle. Maybe a certain item is, at that time, the best thing he's heard and he is enthusiastic. Of course that's a good recommendation, if he likes it more than x number of other items. It's just that he will also be enthusiastic if he hears something he likes more, and yeah if you took his advice you may not be able to upgrade. I know the Phoenix is good, and I don't have the money or the proximity to meets to try a ton of things, so I'm sticking with what I have.


----------



## tosehee

Well, all the powers to you then, PJ. 

 I am not rich enough to do what you can afford to do, but certainly interested in hearing your impressions along the journey of yours.

 I am settled on mine, and if I ever buy another, I will have to sell mine to move up. No way in hell I can afford many amp/dacs/headphones just to compare and land on the aural nirvana.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tosehee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well, all the powers to you then, PJ. 

 I am not rich enough to do what you can afford to do, but certainly interested in hearing your impressions along the journey of yours.

 I am settled on mine, and if I ever buy another, I will have to sell mine to move up. No way in hell I can afford many amp/dacs/headphones just to compare and land on the aural nirvana._

 

Believe me, I am in no way rich. My girlfriend and I live in a 1 bedroom apartment. I make my purchases in stages by saving up for them and selling my other gear. The amp I'm building will be done in stages, as I acquire the funds to do so. I'm lucky to have become friends with an extremely talented engineer. I'm not going to mention who until the project is finished.

 I have no intentions at this point of selling the Phoenix.


----------



## swt61

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *scootermafia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_PJ is just someone that isn't willing to settle. Maybe a certain item is, at that time, the best thing he's heard and he is enthusiastic. Of course that's a good recommendation, if he likes it more than x number of other items. It's just that he will also be enthusiastic if he hears something he likes more, and yeah if you took his advice you may not be able to upgrade. I know the Phoenix is good, and I don't have the money or the proximity to meets to try a ton of things, so I'm sticking with what I have._

 

Well if you pick your gear on the advice of one guy you're hardly making an informed decision. No matter who that one guy is.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm lucky to have become friends with an extremely talented engineer. I'm not going to mention who until the project is finished._

 

We can probably make a guess at -=that=-.


----------



## smeggy

Priceless!

 Thanks Steve, that put a smile on my face


----------



## scootermafia

I didn't buy the Phoenix based on PJ's recommendation. I based it on the fact that lots of people liked it and that it is a great value as well as a technological achievement. Not too many really nice solid state balanced amps for $1200, and I've had my eye on audio-gd for a while. The Phoenix is just too cool to pass up, and I'm very happy with it even if other people didn't like it (but they do).


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *swt61* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_<<SNIP>>

 We can probably make a guess at -=that=-._

 

Well that could get interesting. Can't wait for that thread...

 .


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Have the children gone to bed yet ? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 (joking of course)

 Peete.


----------



## ztsen

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Read through this and other threads and one thing becomes clear about what Ipod likes, and that is that he doesn't know what it is that he likes. He's been back and forth so many times that it'd make anyone dizzy trying to keep track what it is that he likes.

 He'll love his "Special" new amp, that is until something else piques his interest; it's very ADD like.

 Sorry I know that's kind of harsh, but there are people out there who pay attention to what he says and his opinions vacillate so frequently that I for one discount almost every word he says._

 

At the end, here is forum for discusstion rite? I dont think 1 person comment or sharing will prompt decision of people buying or create unnecessary hype. There are many other brothers sharing as well either is supporting the statement or not. So we be the own judge of our buying interest. Not like he put us into a room of sales, and under preassure to force sales within an hour like those stupid marketing arrangement. We should continue focus on Phoenix impression. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 By the way, I would love to hear more other headphone balance in phoenix.. not always 800 800 800 800 800 800 800 800 800 800 800...gosh

 Denon D5K balanced also sounds great, man! Skylab also comments on Phoenix is for Beyer family! More input on "other than 800" please. lol


----------



## luvdunhill

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ztsen* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I dont think 1 person comment or sharing will prompt decision of people buying or create unnecessary hype.

 Skylab also comments on Phoenix is for Beyer family!_


----------



## Currawong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ How many of you have more than one amp? I'm not allowed to like two amps? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

"You're new here, aren't you?" The guys beating up on you, for the most part have been around here years and gone through incredible amounts of equipment, meets and DIY.

 Anyway, back on topic....

 I borrowed a Luxman P-1, as it was on my short-list as an amp before the Aussie dollar bombed, and, as a very long-time Luxman fan, I've long been keen to spend some hours with one. Using balanced input via XLR from the Ref 1 and SE output to my HD-800s, there's not a lot between the amps, with the Luxman having slightly better bass (possibly just the result of their being slightly more of it) and the Phoenix having a slightly more refined and detailed treble. There's little in it between them though. As the improvement going to balanced with the HD-800s is almost TOO good in a way (pop and rock is a bit too distant-sounding) I've been spending quite a bit of time just using the Luxman the last couple of days. If anything, this makes the Phoenix a bargain, only beaten by the Luxman second-hand locally in Japan in that regard.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *luvdunhill* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_



_

 

Exactly right...


----------



## lmswjm

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ztsen* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 By the way, I would love to hear more other headphone balance in phoenix.. not always 800 800 800 800 800 800 800 800 800 800 800...gosh

 Denon D5K balanced also sounds great, man! Skylab also comments on Phoenix is for Beyer family! More input on "other than 800" please. lol_

 

I listened to the HD800's w/stock SE vs. the Markl MD5000 SE on the Phoenix. Though I know the 800's were technically the better phone, I prefered the Denons because of difference in impact. I sent the 800's back and got the D7000. This phone completely blew the 5000's out the window. Now the 7000's are recabled with a gold alloy terminated with the balanced 4 pin XLR. I've got the JMoney pads too. I truly have been satisfied with this phone. This is the longest I've gone without the urge to tweak / switch headphones.


----------



## soundlogic

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *lmswjm* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I listened to the HD800's w/stock SE vs. the Markl MD5000 SE on the Phoenix. Though I know the 800's were technically the better phone, I prefered the Denons because of difference in impact. I sent the 800's back and got the D7000. This phone completely blew the 5000's out the window. Now the 7000's are recabled with a gold alloy terminated with the balanced 4 pin XLR. I've got the JMoney pads too. I truly have been satisfied with this phone. This is the longest I've gone without the urge to tweak / switch headphones._

 

Agreed!
 I have the 7000's as well, for the above reasons...the HD 800's did not give the dynamics that I hoped for with the Phoenix.The JMoney pads are mandatory, IMHO. Balancing the Denons are next on my list. Which brand XLR's did you use, and did you do the re-term your self?
 If so, by chance, did you snap any pics?


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *soundlogic* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Agreed!
 I have the 7000's as well, for the above reasons...the HD 800's did not give the dynamics that I hoped for with the Phoenix.The JMoney pads are mandatory, IMHO. Balancing the Denons are next on my list. Which brand XLR's did you use, and did you do the re-term your self?
 If so, by chance, did you snap any pics?_

 

Hey,
 Here's a Link to the HOW TO I did on the GS1000 to dual 3 PIN XLR. Since then, I've become a 4 pin convert and will "eventually" reterm those to a 4 PIN. In the meantime, I need to do my HF-2s as a 4-PIN . I may do that Today, If I do, I PIC it and Post it. However, this link should help you a lot. You just take the 2 pins from each 3 Pin and move them into a 4 PIN. Think I have an interesting project today.

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f6/bal...gs1000-431493/

 .


----------



## seaice

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ztsen* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Denon D5K balanced also sounds great, man! Skylab also comments on Phoenix is for Beyer family! More input on "other than 800" please. lol_

 

I can add some of my experience with Sennheiser HD600 (SE, Cardas cable) and AKG K701 (SE, stock cable) with Phoenix. It was really nice summer with them, both are very good match for the Phoenix, I have found some new qualities in both with the Phoenix, really nice sound. But finally, HD800 is HD800


----------



## soundlogic

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hey,
 Here's a Link to the HOW TO I did on the GS1000 to dual 3 PIN XLR. Since then, I've become a 4 pin convert and will "eventually" reterm those to a 4 PIN. In the meantime, I need to do my HF-2s as a 4-PIN . I may do that Today, If I do, I PIC it and Post it. However, this link should help you a lot. You just take the 2 pins from each 3 Pin and move them into a 4 PIN. Think I have an interesting project today.

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f6/bal...gs1000-431493/

 ._

 

Thanks Les. 
 As always, no *****-foot'n around when you do things.
 As we say at the Firehouse: Go Hard...Or Go Home!


----------



## tim3320070

The Denon's have 4 wires- the two black ground wires have to be matched up to the R and L wires, so it's pretty simple (coming from someone who has never done something like this before). The black for each is sort of paired with the red or white wire, which you can see, but you should double check with a multimeter. Unlike the Grados, the red is right and the white is left.


----------



## ztsen

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_"You're new here, aren't you?" The guys beating up on you, for the most part have been around here years and gone through incredible amounts of equipment, meets and DIY.

 Anyway, back on topic....

 I borrowed a Luxman P-1, as it was on my short-list as an amp before the Aussie dollar bombed, and, as a very long-time Luxman fan, I've long been keen to spend some hours with one. Using balanced input via XLR from the Ref 1 and SE output to my HD-800s, there's not a lot between the amps, with the Luxman having slightly better bass (possibly just the result of their being slightly more of it) and the Phoenix having a slightly more refined and detailed treble. There's little in it between them though. As the improvement going to balanced with the HD-800s is almost TOO good in a way (pop and rock is a bit too distant-sounding) I've been spending quite a bit of time just using the Luxman the last couple of days. If anything, this makes the Phoenix a bargain, only beaten by the Luxman second-hand locally in Japan in that regard._

 

I have a very short audition when I visit tokyo for DX1000 and Luxman is the amp setup but I didn't pay attendtion which model. From what I've recalled, it sounded very warm and smooth. Is this the Luxman signature or due to the DX1000?


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hey,
 Here's a Link to the HOW TO I did on the GS1000 to dual 3 PIN XLR. Since then, I've become a 4 pin convert and will "eventually" reterm those to a 4 PIN. In the meantime, I need to do my HF-2s as a 4-PIN . I may do that Today, If I do, I PIC it and Post it. However, this link should help you a lot. You just take the 2 pins from each 3 Pin and move them into a 4 PIN. Think I have an interesting project today.

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f6/bal...gs1000-431493/

 ._

 

Agreed ...the 4 pin is the way to go IMO as well.

 Peete.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ztsen* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have a very short audition when I visit tokyo for DX1000 and Luxman is the amp setup but I didn't pay attendtion which model. From what I've recalled, it sounded very warm and smooth. Is this the Luxman signature or due to the DX1000?_

 

Yup that is the Luxman sound 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Peete.


----------



## ztsen

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *soundlogic* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Agreed!
 I have the 7000's as well, for the above reasons...the HD 800's did not give the dynamics that I hoped for with the Phoenix.The JMoney pads are mandatory, IMHO. Balancing the Denons are next on my list. Which brand XLR's did you use, and did you do the re-term your self?
 If so, by chance, did you snap any pics?_

 

I got the HP modification kit from Audio-gd, it came with the WBT solder as well. Thin and easy to solder.

 Make sure you insert the Velour chromium housing before you start to solder.


----------



## DoYouRight

ÐÂ½¨ÍøÒ³ 1

 So that is all that is needed for CAST/SATRI? maybe I should snag one to try this business out.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *soundlogic* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks Les. 
 As always, no *****-foot'n around when you do things.
 As we say at the Firehouse: Go Hard...Or Go Home!_

 

Well, you got me motivated to do the HF-2s. They're done. I'll the write up and post it and put it up, hope it helps you a little along the way.

 Ohhh, and the HF-2s are *KILLER* balanced with the REF1/Phoenix combo.


----------



## DoYouRight

les do you think that link I put would be able to add cast/satri to a diy amp?


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DoYouRight* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ÐÂ½¨ÍøÒ³ 1

 So that is all that is needed for CAST/SATRI? maybe I should snag one to try this business out._

 

Just be aware that CAST and SATRI aren't one and the same.

 CAST is a signal transmission scheme which uses a current source instead of a voltage source.

 The SATRI circuit is an amplifier.

 k


----------



## DoYouRight

but could I make a diy amp like ipod is having built just using that?


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DoYouRight* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_but could I make a diy amp like ipod is having built just using that?_

 

The amp iPodPJ is wanting built is ultimately just a balanced B22 except that it will also accept input from the CAST outputs on the Ref 1.

 And all that ultimately requires is just four resistors for the I/V conversion.

 k


----------



## tim3320070

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ohhh, and the HF-2s are *KILLER* balanced with the REF1/Phoenix combo._

 

If I ever get my Phoenix (EMS snafu), I have high hopes for my newly balanced 325is' (along with my Denon, and HD650's which are all reterminated and waiting taut and expectant).
 I am currently enjoying my computer HP out which is so special...


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tim3320070* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If I ever get my Phoenix (EMS snafu), I have high hopes for my newly balanced 325is' (along with my Denon, and HD650's which are all reterminated and waiting taut and expectant).
 I am currently enjoying my computer HP out which is so special..._

 

Should be interesting. The soundstage on the HF-2s seemed like it widened about 50%. I was amazed, really jumped out at me.


----------



## lmswjm

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *soundlogic* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Agreed!
 I have the 7000's as well, for the above reasons...the HD 800's did not give the dynamics that I hoped for with the Phoenix.The JMoney pads are mandatory, IMHO. Balancing the Denons are next on my list. Which brand XLR's did you use, and did you do the re-term your self?
 If so, by chance, did you snap any pics?_

 

I did do the recable. I used the premium Neutrik XLR ($10), Techflex nylon multifilament sleeving (very cloth-like, not the hard plastic type), and a Viablue cable management Y-splitter.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Looks good ! Where did you pick up the splitter ?

 Peete.


----------



## lmswjm

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Looks good ! Where did you pick up the splitter ?

 Peete._

 

AV Outlet Home Theater Products Theater Seats, Roller Shades, Projection Screens, Popcorn Poppers and More

 Thanks, it's the SC2 model.

 Bill


----------



## Currawong

I wouldn't call the Luxman "warm" so much. It's more that it does a good job making any pair of headphones sound good, rather than being unforgiving.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ohhh, and the HF-2s are *KILLER* balanced with the REF1/Phoenix combo._

 

Better than they are SE? I didn't bother re-cabling mine as I wasn't sure it'd make much of an improvement.


----------



## IPodPJ

Peter (scootermafia) uses the Viablue splitters on his Double Helix Cables. You might be able to buy one from him.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I wouldn't call the Luxman "warm" so much. It's more that it does a good job making any pair of headphones sound good, rather than being unforgiving.



 Better than they are SE? I didn't bother re-cabling mine as I wasn't sure it'd make much of an improvement._

 

I did not notice much in my other cans balanced to tell the truth. There may have been a difference, just not as much. The HF-2s seemed to jump a notch on bass tightness, quantity and extension and the soundstage opened up quite. a bit. The soundstage made me say WOW a number of times on the first few songs I listened to.


----------



## DoYouRight

very sweet just dont know if i can cut mine up


----------



## soundlogic

For those that are interested, Kingwa has logged in with some good feedback regarding the on-going subject of: Phoenix Heat.
 Here:http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f5/rev...66/index5.html


----------



## ztsen

Is this going to be replacement top casing for those who already bought the phoenix?
http://www.audio-gd.com/enweb/Phoenix/111.jpg


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ztsen* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is this going to be replacement top casing for those who already bought the phoenix?
http://www.audio-gd.com/enweb/Phoenix/111.jpg_

 

Why is this not a default cover?


----------



## tim3320070

So many were complaining/ worrying about it, he responded I guess. I told him make mine a solid top if he feels it's not an issue. I don't want dust build up in there.


----------



## DoYouRight

I want some of those screws~


----------



## IPodPJ

I definitely want him to send me one of those.


----------



## Skylab

Seems like that cover is a good idea.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Seems like that cover is a good idea._

 

Uh, yeah. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 It should have been there from day one.

 The amp chassis doesn't need it, but the power supply surely does.


----------



## tosehee

That cover should be at the top and the bottom as default, IMO.


----------



## scootermafia

I can sell them to anyone at cost plus whatever it costs to ship if you just want one. They are pretty sexy, heavy aluminum @ all. They make a version for fatter earcup wires but the SC2 works great. AV-Outlet is out of town through Friday so if you need one sooner, let me know, AV-outlet has free shipping for orders over $25 so you want to buy 3 at a time, but if you need a single one shipped priority then I can mail them to any head-fiers that need them fast, UPS ground that they use is slooooow.

 In other news, just asked Kingwa how to get one of these plates, is everyone sure they're a freebie, will we have to pay shipping, they're not small and I feel bad for him but at the same time it's hardly a cosmetic upgrade, my power supply is hawwwt.


----------



## ServinginEcuador

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I definitely want him to send me one of those._

 

x2, and by that I mean both top and bottom plates would be nice. Send mine with black screws and I'm all over it.


----------



## Currawong

That cover wont make any difference to air flow or temperature IMO unless there are corresponding air holes on the sides or bottom.


----------



## seaice

But it is quite sexy to have a winter and summer version, or fully dressed and semi nude, in other words.


----------



## Currawong

That cover wont make any significant difference to air flow or temperature IMO unless there are corresponding air holes on the sides or bottom.


----------



## tim3320070

Kingwa basically told me in so many words that he is doing this as a response to all the talk about his "failed" design technique for heat abatement, but that it is not needed. He wants to please us by responding to any concerns (shipping issues, etc.). I am having mine with a solid top as originally designed. Why would you guys let dust and bugs into the equipment if not needed? Who has had a failure of equipment due to heat- it's all conjecture?


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I definitely want him to send me one of those._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Seems like that cover is a good idea._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Uh, yeah. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 It should have been there from day one.

 The amp chassis doesn't need it, but the power supply surely does._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tosehee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That cover should be at the top and the bottom as default, IMO._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ServinginEcuador* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_x2, and by that I mean both top and bottom plates would be nice. Send mine with black screws and I'm all over it._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That cover wont make any difference to air flow or temperature IMO unless there are corresponding air holes on the sides or bottom._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *seaice* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_But it is quite sexy to have a winter and summer version, or fully dressed and semi nude, in other words._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That cover wont make any significant difference to air flow or temperature IMO unless there are corresponding air holes on the sides or bottom._

 

Previously I shot IR Temps running with the top OFF, pretty much no difference. I don't think it will hurt anything, but all you folks holding your breath, need to breathe!


----------



## tim3320070

Holy crap, thanks for that Les....


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That cover wont make any significant difference to air flow or temperature IMO unless there are corresponding air holes on the sides or bottom._

 

How could it not? If there are vents the air will dissipate quicker. Hot air rises.

 And even if it didn't make a difference to component longevity, it will be easier for my apartment to cool the hot air that comes out of it since the aluminum block won't be a huge space heater. The chassis shouldn't get as hot if the heat is allowed to rise.

 I've tested this with other equipment that has ventilation holes by covering them up and it always gets hotter. I understand that the Phoenix is supposed to act as a giant heat sink, but still....


----------



## haloxt

Phoenix will always generate the same amount of excess heat when on. If you were to say put a fan directly on top of a phoenix with vents the phoenix will technically become an even greater space heater because the heat is getting out of the phoenix into your room 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How could it not? If there are vents the air will dissipate quicker. Hot air rises.

 And even if it didn't make a difference to component longevity, it will be easier for my apartment to cool the hot air that comes out of it since the aluminum block won't be a huge space heater. The chassis shouldn't get as hot if the heat is allowed to rise.

 I've tested this with other equipment that has ventilation holes by covering them up and it always gets hotter. I understand that the Phoenix is supposed to act as a giant heat sink, but still...._

 

I was originally contemplating having mine drilled. I shot temps with the top on and the top off. No difference except for the transistor that has a chimney heat sink in the middle of the Power supply. It dropped a couple degrees, not much. 

 I let it run 8 hours to warm up with the cover on. Shot temps all around. Then took the top off and came back 8 hours later. Temps were the same. Like I said, other than the pleasingly cosmetic aspects of the slots, the temp won't change with those little slots. That's just Kingwa willing to please everyone. If it had made a difference, mine would have had holes months ago. I got a drill press.

 Think about it, he's a talented Engineer winning design competitions. You think he needs us to tell him about heat dissipation? The Phoenix is performing as designed and doing it superbly IMHO.

 That was about the time I had discovered I had the ceiling fan off in a small office with a lot of electronic gear producing heat. Once I turned the fan back on, I never thought again about any heat questions. Temp went down quite a bit with just a small amount of air movement. I also have the gear sitting side by side, instead of stacked with the PSU on the bottom.

 I would also say if you are going to Kvetch about the heat, you provide an accurate description about the environment and borrow an infrared thermometer. You meaning "Y'all". You can't really guess with your fingers.


----------



## tim3320070

This is the 2nd-3rd time (that I know of) Les has described the lack of change in the temp with and w/o the top. What else do you all need? 
 Ipod- the amount of heat generated will be the same, slots or no- didn't you take physics? Where do you think it goes?


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Think about it, he's a talented Engineer winning design competitions. You think he needs us to tell him about heat dissipation? The Phoenix is performing as designed and doing it superbly IMHO._

 

X2

 Peete.


----------



## punk_guy182

x3

 This heat issue is a non-issue. Kingwa has reassured us with his explanation. Let's get on another topic.

 Punk.


----------



## akg702

X4
 The heat is not an issue for me, I can put my hands on the top for a long long time ..... but not the bottom. Might be able to cook an eggs at the bottom of the phoenix 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## scootermafia

is that pic shopped or did you really fry an egg on it...too late to figure it out myself...gaaaa


----------



## akg702

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *scootermafia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_is that pic shopped or did you really fry an egg on it...too late to figure it out myself...gaaaa_

 

I wish it does barbecue ...... photoshop.


----------



## tim3320070

Nice Photoshopping!


----------



## ztsen

he just cooked then put it on Phoenix top. That's all.
 U need to be very hot to create the burn edge on egg.


----------



## The Monkey

That egg looks delicious and shows yet another use for this flexible piece of gear.

 EDIT: Also, I don't get this Photoshop nonsense. That picture clearly is real.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *The Monkey* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That egg looks delicious and shows yet another use for this flexible piece of gear.

 EDIT: Also, I don't get this Photoshop nonsense. That picture clearly is real._

 

They're referring to the wisps of smoke...


----------



## DoYouRight

just cause were on the internet doesn't mean everything is photoshopped. it cooks eggs! there is something it does better than B22


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DoYouRight* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_just cause were on the internet doesn't mean everything is photoshopped. it cooks eggs! there is something it does better than B22 _

 

and bacon, sausage, and hash browns. Mmmm... I'm getting hungry.


----------



## scootermafia

Good God, that is a real pic. I didn't figure it was shopped as that would be hard to do...but I guess if you leave an egg on there a while, it will cook it. Did you crank it hard with no A/C on for a day to get it that warm?

 What I do is I have a small wall-mounted fan trained on my gear rack, specifically pointed at that power supply. When I'm down for some serious listening, I switch the fan and house A/C off.


----------



## ServinginEcuador

Didn't akg702 admit it was a photoshop job after he posted them? Somehow I doubt he would actually fry something with non-stick/butter spread all over the top of his amp.


 Les,

 For the record I wanted the panel with the holes for the top and bottom, not just for the top. This would allow for all kinds of airflow created from the rising heat, thus cooling things down a bit.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ServinginEcuador* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Didn't akg702 admit it was a photoshop job after he posted them? Somehow I doubt he would actually fry something with non-stick/butter spread all over the top of his amp.


 Les,

 For the record I wanted the panel with the holes for the top and bottom, not just for the top. This would allow for all kinds of airflow created from the rising heat, thus cooling things down a bit._

 

Hi,
 Takes 144-158 F to cook an egg. Top of Phoenix may be 100F. That's an Egg that was was fried, dropped on the Phoenix, pic taken, and wisps of smoke photoshopped in is my guess.

 As far as holes top and bottom, still don't believe it will help. I also _think_ that decreasing the mass of the case may hurt with heat dissipation. The answer is Heat sink surface area, if there is an answer or a question. If heat Trapping was an issue, running it with the top off would have made a difference.


----------



## Happy Camper

Perfectly done I might add, the designer is a genius.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Top of Phoenix may be 100F._

 

When you say Phoenix, which chassis are you referring to? The amp chassis, perhaps. Not even close for the power supply. The top of the power supply is nowhere close to 100 when it has been running for 4 - 6 hours.

 How do I know this? Because I have been in Jacuzzis warmer than that and never came close to burning myself. I can't hold my hand on the top of the power supply for more than 2 seconds.


----------



## punk_guy182

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How do I know this? Because I have been in Jacuzzis warmer than that and never came close to burning myself. I can't hold my hand on the top of the power supply for more than 2 seconds._

 

That's still subjective measurement and not as relevant as Les's thermometer.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *punk_guy182* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's still subjective measurement and not as relevant as Les's thermometer._

 

It's not subjective. If 104 - 107 degree water doesn't burn me with me submerged into it for an hour, putting my hand on top of something that's 100 degrees wouldn't either. That's common sense.

 Whatever his unit is measuring in temperature is not what mine is, if he's stating that the power supply shows 100 degrees.


----------



## The Monkey

iPod, I'll take direct measurements with instruments over estimates with the human hand and a hot tub thermometer every day of the week.

 Get or borrow an IR thermometer and shoot it. Then post your measurements. Apples to apples.


----------



## Currawong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How could it not? If there are vents the air will dissipate quicker. Hot air rises._

 

Where does the cool air to replace it enter then? Also, it's not the internal component temperature that is the problem, going by Les' measurements. If you start drilling holes, you're reducing the surface area of what is, effectively, the heatsink for the FETs. 

 Come on people, if the chassis is getting hot (just like a heatsink gets hot) it means it is doing it's job correctly. Seems some people here have their brains wired in reverse.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ Think about it, he's a talented Engineer winning design competitions. You think he needs us to tell him about heat dissipation? The Phoenix is performing as designed and doing it superbly IMHO._

 

X3.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_When you say Phoenix, which chassis are you referring to? The amp chassis, perhaps. Not even close for the power supply. The top of the power supply is nowhere close to 100 when it has been running for 4 - 6 hours.

 How do I know this? Because I have been in Jacuzzis warmer than that and never came close to burning myself. I can't hold my hand on the top of the power supply for more than 2 seconds._

 

I'm referring to the top of the PSU. I posted the top, bottom, side, dac chip, and voltage regulator temps early on in this thread.

 You also were running yours in Death Valley with no AC in your house earlier I seem to remember, or some such nonsense, I would call that abuse and not a normal environment.

 Maybe you're just a sensitive kind of guy?

 My environment is 77F ambient with ceiling fan on low. The top is just warm

 Make sure your environment is not abusive and get a thermometer. It costs about 1/30 or 1/50th the cost of some of those cables you sprung for. Very handy for a lot of things like seeing the temp of your dogs nose!


----------



## scootermafia

I didn't think that someone would actually fry an egg then stick it on top of their phoenix, but I guess I'm pretty dumb.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You also were running yours in Death Valley with no AC in your house earlier I seem to remember, or some such nonsense, I would call that abuse and not a normal environment._

 

Not quite Death Valley, but it gets pretty hot here. And no, I never said any such thing. You're confusing me with someone else. I said my system was 2 feet away from my A/C wall unit. But now since I bought the audio rack, it's about 5 feet away. (I run the air in the summer 24/7. I do not like heat, if you couldn't tell.)

 When the air was blowing directly on it it cooled it off enough so that it wouldn't burn my hand on the top of the chassis. But now that the air isn't directly blowing on it it gets to extreme levels. Both chassis are on separate shelves and there is plenty of empty space above each chassis for air to circulate.

 I was thinking of buying those fans made for audio racks that you put under the shelves. I think that would certainly help.


----------



## lmswjm

X2 Les and Currawong, holy crap with this heat thing!

 To drill or not to drill, who cares? Do whatever, but stop beating the freakin' dead horse already.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Not quite Death Valley, but it gets pretty hot here. And no, I never said any such thing. You're confusing me with someone else. I said my system was 2 feet away from my A/C wall unit. But now since I bought the audio rack, it's about 5 feet away. (I run the air in the summer 24/7. I do not like heat, if you couldn't tell.)

 When the air was blowing directly on it it cooled it off enough so that it wouldn't burn my hand on the top of the chassis. But now that the air isn't directly blowing on it it gets to extreme levels. Both chassis are on separate shelves and there is plenty of empty space above each chassis for air to circulate.

 I was thinking of buying those fans made for audio racks that you put under the shelves. I think that would certainly help._

 

Well, what is the ambient temp immediately adjacent to the Phoenix? If it has hot air around it, it will run hotter than if it has a stream of "fresh air".

 Anybody interested in good cheap IR Thermometers. Google Raytek Thermometer. Look for as close to 1% accuracy as you want to pay. You can get 1.5% for under $50 shipped.

Raytek Laser Sight Thermometer -20 to 932 degrees F MT6:eBay Motors (item 230378154666 end time Oct-15-09 09:51:20 PDT)

 Class A Biased gear is horrendously inefficient. They produce prodigious amounts of heat. You cannot fry an egg on a Phoenix. You can on a Krell or a Threshold or any number of other pieces of Class A gear.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well, what is the ambient temp immediately adjacent to the Phoenix? If it has hot air around it, it will run hotter than if it has a stream of "fresh air".

 Anybody interested in good cheap IR Thermometers. Google Raytek Thermometer. Look for as close to 1% accuracy as you want to pay. You can get 1.5% for under $50 shipped.

Raytek Laser Sight Thermometer -20 to 932 degrees F MT6:eBay Motors (item 230378154666 end time Oct-15-09 09:51:20 PDT)_

 

I keep it around 70-72 degrees in my place. I like it to be comfortable.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I keep it around 70-72 degrees in my place. I like it to be comfortable._

 

That wasn't my question. 

 If I was a fly sitting on the shelf next to the Phoenix, how hot would I be?


----------



## scootermafia

Yeah when your gear is racked the heat can't rise off it properly. That's why my Phoenix is on a top shelf.


----------



## ztsen

Any impression of GS1000i SE/Balanced on Phoenix?


----------



## tim3320070

That, and how does your K702 sound, is it balanced? Does the soundstage get too big?


----------



## Bob Jones

Takeing the top off just changes conduction to convection.There are heat sinks on the inside attached to the bottom plate.You can see them on his web site.Go to alphanovatech.com and buy yourself a passive-flat self sticking heatsink.Dead horse society going back to music.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ztsen* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Any impression of GS1000i SE/Balanced on Phoenix?_

 

Very smooth, powers it well. Sibilance that is present on recordings is still on recordings. Makes them feel very powerful and impact is massive. Seems to smooth the top end a little, actually smooths everywhere.


----------



## Mik

I haven't posted here in a while so I'll give a little update. I'm still totally pleased with the Phoenix. It's really excellent as a preamp. It doesn't do any favours for bad recordings, but well-engineered music sounds perfect together with the Ref1. I am listening to some 24/96 Miles Davis right now and it's so, so good. Any sense of digital-ness is totally gone. On good live recordings like this one it sounds like they're playing in my room. I don't know of any other preamps anywhere near the Phoenix's price point that can at all compete with it. 

 After trying several different components in my 2 channel system there's finally nothing left distracting me from the music. I'm free to enjoy it in peace and that's a nice change. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 (which is why I haven't posted in a while - been enjoying it too much)


----------



## laevi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That wasn't my question. 

 If I was a fly sitting on the shelf next to the Phoenix, how hot would I be?_

 

My home's thermostat is set at 76 degrees. I have my Phoenix stacked with the power supply on top. Using a cheap digital thermometer/hygrometer from Wal-Mart placed next to the Phoenix, I get a temperature reading of around 83 degrees. With a fan on in the room, the temperature drops to around 78 degrees.

 The Phoenix is tolerable for me during the summer. Come winter, I block all the heat vents in that room, so the heat radiated by the Phoenix might even be welcomed.


----------



## tim3320070

Let's start a "Heat" thread......we could discuss it endlessly....ooh good times


----------



## ztsen

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tim3320070* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That, and how does your K702 sound, is it balanced? Does the soundstage get too big?_

 

I am still use the stock SE not balance yet. Not sure there is a point to balance it if use back the min XLR jack.


----------



## ztsen

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Very smooth, powers it well. Sibilance that is present on recordings is still on recordings. Makes them feel very powerful and impact is massive. Seems to smooth the top end a little, actually smooths everywhere._

 

Since we both have the D5k. Can point out the Sound Signature different between D5k and G1ki?


----------



## FauDrei

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ztsen* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am still use the stock SE not balance yet. Not sure there is a point to balance it if use back the min XLR jack._

 

In my experience - there IS a point... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Sorry for jumping into Phoenix party, but since Roc is "baby Phoenix" (or "person Phoenix" whichever you prefer) perhaps my Roc experiences would relate to the "proper" Phoenix ones...






 There IS audible difference when driving K701 balanced. I am not referring to volume increase here - the "hard to behave" K701 are "obeying better" to amp's sonic commands when balanced. Hard for me to describe - they respond "faster" and there are no sonic "voids" where K701 would "ignore" the signal sent to them and "fill in" or "miss out" with something we (or at least I) perceive as K701 sound signature... When balanced K701 are "on a tighter leash" and everything they do good - they do slightly better.

 ...not to mention that if you own a Phoenix (Roc) and drive your phones only in SE mode - you are using just 2 out of available 4 amp channels... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ...which raises a good question: If you burned-in your Phoenix (Roc) with SE headphones - are all 4 channels properly burned-in?


----------



## haloxt

doublepost.


----------



## haloxt

Tighter leash is the perfect way to describe what balanced did to my headphones. Also, it seems like left and right are more separated, that is especially audible in my headphones because they have internal ground wires that meet 3 inches from the left driver and 20 inches from the right driver, much less crosstalk from separated grounds from balancing it seems.


----------



## FauDrei

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_... much less crosstalk from separated grounds from balancing it seems._

 

Eeer... technically, there is no ground in balanced configuration - all "four wires" are active. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I concur with better channel separation statement.


----------



## haloxt

That's what I mean, before balancing my headphones would combine the left and right channel grounds several inches from the drivers. Balancing got rid of that.


----------



## ztsen

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *FauDrei* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_In my experience - there IS a point... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Sorry for jumping into Phoenix party, but since Roc is "baby Phoenix" (or "person Phoenix" whichever you prefer) perhaps my Roc experiences would relate to the "proper" Phoenix ones...






 There IS audible difference when driving K701 balanced. I am not referring to volume increase here - the "hard to behave" K701 are "obeying better" to amp's sonic commands when balanced. Hard for me to describe - they respond "faster" and there are no sonic "voids" where K701 would "ignore" the signal sent to them and "fill in" or "miss out" with something we (or at least I) perceive as K701 sound signature... When balanced K701 are "on a tighter leash" and everything they do good - they do slightly better.

 ...not to mention that if you own a Phoenix (Roc) and drive your phones only in SE mode - you are using just 2 out of available 4 amp channels... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ...which raises a good question: If you burned-in your Phoenix (Roc) with SE headphones - are all 4 channels properly burned-in? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I think yours 701 is solder in the cable. What I mean for 702 there is a stock cable internally cross over to the right cup.


----------



## FauDrei

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ztsen* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think yours 701 is solder in the cable. What I mean for 702 there is a stock cable internally cross over to the right cup._

 

K701 originally have 4 wire cable hardwired into left cup. Two wires are connected to the left driver, other two are soldered to two metal headband wires through which the signal goes to the right driver. There is no need to recable K701 for balanced configuration - it is enough to cut the original wire and reterminate it with male 4 pin XLR connector. I recabled my K701 to "Y" configuration because I didn't wanted to drive the signal to right driver through headband rods.

 Not sure about K702... Does it have 3 pin cable connector? If so - for going balanced it should also be recabled. If K702 have 4 pin cable/connector - you just need to cut the cable and reterminate it with male 4 pin XLR.


----------



## haloxt

I get continuity between the screws of the amp box and psu box, anyone else? I found out it was because of the new data cable I got, the outer shell and pin 9 are grounds. I tried insulating pin 9 and the shell but it doesn't play so I'm pretty sure you need it, but doesn't the fact that it combines both box's grounds bad? Maybe if I cut the pin 9 wire in the middle of the cable it'll stop the ground loop and I can still play. I would ask Kingwa except I don't want to bother him and since he might misunderstand what I'm asking due to language barrier.

 edit: Okay I did send him an email hehe, got itchy fingers to try to remove the ground on my data cable.

 edit 2: Fast response from Kingwa, he says not to worry so nm 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## ServinginEcuador

Well, after Les talked so highly about his IR thrmometer I finally bought one he recommended off of eBay. Nice little toy with lots of little uses. Here are my temp readings, and under what circumstance I got them:

 Open window behind rack, fan blowing on audio rack: 65F ambient, PSU and Amp sections were 80F.
 Window closed, fan blowing on audio rack:75F ambient, PSU 86F, amp 87F. (Likely due to the fact that the fan blows across the PSU section first, and it's raised up another inch off the rack.)
 Window closed, no fan or air movement: 75F ambient, PSU 105F, Amp 97F.

 Never gets hot enough to worry about longevity, and runs WAY, WAY cooler than many other amps. The transformer on the 6BX7 enabled SinglePower Supra is so hot it hurts and I can only keep my hand on it for a split second. Next time I move the Phoenix and set it up I'll get some temp readings from the tubes, chassis and transformer.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Thanks SE...interesting readings. I would bet my setup runs fairly close to yours as I consider my amp to be firmly in the warm camp and no where near hot (as I understand it). It likely has a lot to do with 2 factors A) side by side chassis config as opposed to stacked and B) an open air rack space that has lots of air circulation on the top and sides.

 Peete.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

cripes double post...


----------



## The Monkey

OT: What's the recommended IR thermometer?


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *The Monkey* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_OT: What's the recommended IR thermometer?_

 

CLICK


----------



## ztsen

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ServinginEcuador* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well, after Les talked so highly about his IR thrmometer I finally bought one he recommended off of eBay. Nice little toy with lots of little uses. Here are my temp readings, and under what circumstance I got them:

 Open window behind rack, fan blowing on audio rack: 65F ambient, PSU and Amp sections were 80F.
 Window closed, fan blowing on audio rack:75F ambient, PSU 86F, amp 87F. (Likely due to the fact that the fan blows across the PSU section first, and it's raised up another inch off the rack.)
 Window closed, no fan or air movement: 75F ambient, PSU 105F, Amp 97F.

 Never gets hot enough to worry about longevity, and runs WAY, WAY cooler than many other amps. The transformer on the 6BX7 enabled SinglePower Supra is so hot it hurts and I can only keep my hand on it for a split second. Next time I move the Phoenix and set it up I'll get some temp readings from the tubes, chassis and transformer._

 

sorry, wait a second...you purpose bought this just to verify the phoenix temperature? [jaw drop (not sure any icon for this)]

 maybe we should suggest to kingwa to build in temperature sensor and the reading at the LCD display. It is very common on overclocking PC.


----------



## ServinginEcuador

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ztsen* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_sorry, wait a second...you purpose bought this just to verify the phoenix temperature? [jaw drop (not sure any icon for this)]_

 

Nope, just gave me the excuse to do it. I wanted it for other temp readings also, and they finally amounted to enough to warrant spending $50.


----------



## DoYouRight

glad that the temperature of the amp is the most talked about feature lately, come on guys!


----------



## haloxt

It might be good for my wallet if the phoenix dies from heat 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I have upgraditis for transport, dac and headphones now ; [.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ztsen* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_sorry, wait a second...you purpose bought this just to verify the phoenix temperature? [jaw drop (not sure any icon for this)]

 maybe we should suggest to kingwa to build in temperature sensor and the reading at the LCD display. It is very common on overclocking PC._

 

There's a million things you can do with one of these. I use it almost everyday for something. Today I was wondering how hot my Tea maker was making the water. It was 162F. How about the temp coming out of the AC vents in your car and house. I was sitting in front of my 30" LCD monitor and it feels like I'm getting a Sunburn from the radiant heat. Pull it out and shoot the temp. Find Leaks around doors and windows. Look for Heat or cold intrusions.

 Of course then there's always the Dog's nose as mentioned before!

 How hot does your solder tip get? Your solder pot. How hot is the attic, the garage? What temp the water in the pool is?

 When I make Pizza dough, I want the temp of the water around 105F. Too hot and it will kill the yeast. Too cool and the dough temp will be a little low to launch the yeast. While the Dough is mixing I want the dough temp round 85F. If the temp goes above that, it means I'm kneading it too hard. While the dough is rising, I can monitor the activity of the yeast by the temp and slow them down or speed them up.

 I got a million of them.

 Ohhh and it will tell you what temp every chip is in your Phoenix!


----------



## lmswjm

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ!!!!!
 Great bed-time reading.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *lmswjm* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ!!!!!
 Great bed-time reading._

 

Good thing I didn't site all 1 Million uses!! You'd be comatose on a ventilator!


----------



## lmswjm

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Good thing I didn't site all 1 Million uses!! You'd be comatose on a ventilator!_

 

If I do go down, please promise to shoot my body temp to make sure I don't shut down permanently. If I start to get too cold, just stick my Phoenix under the hospital mattress for warmth and you might as well wire me up with some phones (just not the 800's, as this would worsen my condition).


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *lmswjm* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If I do go down, please promise to shoot my body temp to make sure I don't shut down permanently. If I start to get too cold, just stick my Phoenix under the hospital mattress for warmth and you might as well wire me up with some phones (just not the 800's, as this would worsen my condition)._

 

No Problemmo!


----------



## scootermafia

K702 have a 3-wire cord going to a 3 wire mini-XLR connector, which then sends the ground and left to the driver poles, then the shared ground and the right go through metal rods through the headbands to the right sides - suck. Dual entry recable is indeed the way to go, and the only way to go balanced. In the very least if you are running SE you should replace the internal wiring with OCC copper wire, and optionally figure out a way to bypass the metal rods, maybe running some wire out of the cups wrapped around the headbands to the other side.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *scootermafia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_K702 have a 3-wire cord going to a 3 wire mini-XLR connector, which then sends the ground and left to the driver poles, then the shared ground and the right go through metal rods through the headbands to the right sides - suck. Dual entry recable is indeed the way to go, and the only way to go balanced. In the very least if you are running SE you should replace the internal wiring with OCC copper wire, and optionally figure out a way to bypass the metal rods, maybe running some wire out of the cups wrapped around the headbands to the other side._

 

I told you not to snort that whole 8-Ball and then try posting!!


----------



## lmswjm

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I told you not to snort that whole 8-Ball and then try posting!!




_

 


 Thanks, you just split my freakin' sides man!


----------



## haloxt

Scootermafia, what about replacing the 3-pin mini-xlr on the K702 with a 4-pin mini-xlr? It might be possible to replace the insides of the mini-xlr with a TQG4M. I know more grounds is bad but I am going to try to do it on my headphones anyways because I want to have detachable cables again. Also is it a bad idea to replace the internal wiring with 99.99% silver 24 gauge conductors? I'll get OCC if you think it's better.


----------



## googlephone

I've had my Phoenix for about 2 weeks now and I'm really enjoying. There is not much I can say about the amp that hasn't been said. This if a first class piece of gear. 

 I do have a question for some of the veterans on here. I'm starting to get curious about good power conditioning. I'm really interested in the PS Audio regenerative line. Has anyone found improvements with their Audio-GD using power enhancements similar to PS Audio stuff?


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *googlephone* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm starting to get curious about good power conditioning. I'm really interested in the PS Audio regenerative line. Has anyone found improvements with their Audio-GD using power enhancements similar to PS Audio stuff?_

 

The Power Plant Premier will yield positive results with any piece of gear you are using, not just the Audio-gd stuff. It's a truly great component that I would never part with unless it was replaced by a better model. For the best results, everything in your audio chain should be plugged into it. For a headphone system this is easily doable, including your computer if you are using one.

 Markl recommends using your best power cord as the connection from PPP to your wall. I disagree. In my experience, your best power cords should be positioned between the PPP and your components. That doesn't mean you should use a crappy power cord connecting the PPP to the wall though. And stock power cords aren't always crappy, nor do they yield poor quality sound. It just depends on the component and how well a certain cord will synergize with it. I find the Reference One works best with either the stock power cord ($5) or a Cobalt Cable Ultimate Power cord ($120) which isn't pricey compared to others 5x the price that don't even offer a similar level of performance with the Ref1.

 I am actually using an Audio-gd power cord connecting my PPP to the wall. It works very well there and will remain there until I can afford another VD Master LE 2.0 to take its place (which is far and away the best cord I've ever used and is equivalent to a component upgrade on most pieces of gear).


----------



## ztsen

les_garten;6051592 said:
			
		

> When I make Pizza dough, I want the temp of the water around 105F. Too hot and it will kill the yeast. Too cool and the dough temp will be a little low to launch the yeast. While the Dough is mixing I want the dough temp round 85F. If the temp goes above that, it means I'm kneading it too hard. While the dough is rising, I can monitor the activity of the yeast by the temp and slow them down or speed them up.
> QUOTE]
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## les_garten

ztsen;6057556 said:
			
		

> Quote:
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> ...


----------



## googlephone

Quote:


 The Power Plant Premier will yield positive results with any piece of gear you are using, not just the Audio-gd stuff. It's a truly great component that I would never part with unless it was replaced by a better model. For the best results, everything in your audio chain should be plugged into it. For a headphone system this is easily doable, including your computer if you are using one. 
 

Although not a PPP, I was able to score a P300 for a pretty good price. Should be here this week. I'm excited about hearing the results. From what I've read, this should be a pretty good enhancement to rounding out the system.

 thx for the info


----------



## googlephone

Quote:


 The Power Plant Premier will yield positive results with any piece of gear you are using, not just the Audio-gd stuff. It's a truly great component that I would never part with unless it was replaced by a better model. For the best results, everything in your audio chain should be plugged into it. For a headphone system this is easily doable, including your computer if you are using one. 
 

Although not a PPP, I was able to score a P300 for a pretty good price. Should be here this week. I'm excited about hearing the results. From what I've read, this should be a pretty good enhancement to rounding out the system.

 thx for the info


----------



## sonance

I wouldn't recommend plugging a computer into a P300 - be careful about speaker amps too - they may have a higher power draw than you think.


----------



## XXII

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The Power Plant Premier will yield positive results with any piece of gear you are using, not just the Audio-gd stuff. It's a truly great component that I would never part with unless it was replaced by a better model. For the best results, everything in your audio chain should be plugged into it. For a headphone system this is easily doable, including your computer if you are using one._

 

I don't know if you know...for every watt you draw from the PPP (or P300), you draw around 2 watts from the wall. So plugging your computer in might not be a good idea from a cost point of view


----------



## googlephone

I appreciate all the suggestions. This is what I plan on plugging into the P300:
 SB Duet=>Audio-GD Ref 1=>Phoenix

 Kingwa told me the Ref 1 and Phoenix will only draw about a 100 watts. If this is true, I should be good.


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *googlephone* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I appreciate all the suggestions. This is what I plan on plugging into the P300:
 SB Duet=>Audio-GD Ref 1=>Phoenix

 Kingwa told me the Ref 1 and Phoenix will only draw about a 100 watts. If this is true, I should be good._

 

Love to hear your impressions.


----------



## googlephone

Quote:


 Love to hear your impressions. 
 

Should be here around Thu. so I'll have a fun weekend trying it out. I'll let you know how it goes.


----------



## momomo6789

so mine has never even hot been running 6 hours now warm to the touch at best 78F in my house


----------



## tim3320070

Finally received my Phoenix and have been burning it in further. Trying to let it alone during this process since I remember being disappointed with the C-2C the first couple of days.
 Well, goose bumps all over (again). It's everything the C-2C was plus a truckload of refinement thrown in on top. Super tight bass and the no-fatigue, detailed highs. The old cliche applies, I am hearing more. Case in point, Luka Bloom's "Amsterdam" is a fine album and beautifully recorded live. The track "Gone To Pablo" is a nice track but I had never heard the faint background of the crowd singing along until now (including with the Thiels at reference levels).
 My D7000's are sounding better than ever balanced and the nice surprise is how good my HD650's sound balanced. My 325is are still fun but are getting the least use as they just don't have the impact I like, though detailed to hell.
 Other have stated (Les in particular) how the Phoenix does something with good recordings- I think it's the spooky separation of instruments and vocals. Very distinct placement of everything with amazing detail.
 I'm not sure where to go from here in sound refinement thru headphones (maybe HD800?). At the moment, I don't really care.
 Cheers.
 Tim


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tim3320070* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Finally received my Phoenix and have been burning it in further. Trying to let it alone during this process since I remember being disappointed with the C-2C the first couple of days.
 Well, goose bumps all over (again). It's everything the C-2C was plus a truckload of refinement thrown in on top. Super tight bass and the no-fatigue, detailed highs. The old cliche applies, I am hearing more. Case in point, Luka Bloom's "Amsterdam" is a fine album and beautifully recorded live. The track "Gone To Pablo" is a nice track but I had never heard the faint background of the crowd singing along until now (including with the Thiels at reference levels).
 My D7000's are sounding better than ever balanced and the nice surprise is how good my HD650's sound balanced. My 325is are still fun but are getting the least use as they just don't have the impact I like, though detailed to hell.
 Other have stated (Les in particular) how the Phoenix does something with good recordings- I think it's the spooky separation of instruments and vocals. Very distinct placement of everything with amazing detail.
 I'm not sure where to go from here in sound refinement thru headphones (maybe HD800?). At the moment, I don't really care.
 Cheers.
 Tim_

 

Glad you're having a good time with it. The LA7000s I listened to on the Phoenix were phenomenal. Everytime I put them on I just had this "Lip-Jerk" WOW coming out of my mouth. I couldn't help it. HF-2s sound killer also as far as Grados are concerned.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Glad your amp finally arrived Tim .....that must have been an arduous wait with the shipping mix up. The 650's seem to spring to life when balanced (not that SE'd isn't lively) it's just a whole other realm or level.

 Wait until you try it as a preamp (I know I sound like a broken record with that sentiment) but it's even more astounding in that capacity.

 Anyway it's good to hear you have your amp safe and sound 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Peete.


----------



## tim3320070

I have the FBI-500 which according to Kingwa is about the same as the Phoenix, so yes, I have an idea. I was trying to sell it during the hard times recently but things worked out and now I am considering selling it just to streamline the setup- run the XLR from the Phoenix to a balanced amp like the C-10 or similar and have one source and remote.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tim3320070* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have the FBI-500 which according to Kingwa is about the same as the Phoenix, so yes, I have an idea. I was trying to sell it during the hard times recently but things worked out and now I am considering selling it just to streamline the setup- run the XLR from the Phoenix to a balanced amp like the C-10 or similar and have one source and remote._

 

The new C-1s, I got serious wood for those Baybees!


----------



## DoYouRight

les what part of the la7000 do you think makes most difference?


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DoYouRight* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_les what part of the la7000 do you think makes most difference?_

 

I think the Pads, the dampening of the cups and the dampening of the Frames are a must do. Recabling helps a little but in relation to the other changes, I'm not so sure. Mine are balanced with Cardas 4x24. I think they warmed up a little and I"think" the bass felt a little tighter and more impactful. I would consider the cables last. I need to point out that my D5000s are un modded presently. Just things keep coming up. But the LA7000s really were an eye opener to how much better they can sound. I'm counting on making the D5000s get the clarity and tightness of the LA7000s but not the recessed mids that are "slightly" perceptable on the LA7000s. The 5000s were more up front comparatively speaking.


----------



## DoYouRight

Certain damping can be left out to leave bass impact and there and stuff. just partial modding. I just dont want this can to become boring if that is what happens. What about the new wooden cups?


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DoYouRight* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Certain damping can be left out to leave bass impact and there and stuff. just partial modding. I just dont want this can to become boring if that is what happens. What about the new wooden cups?_

 

Won't become boring, believe me. This is off topic though.


----------



## tosehee

off-topic, but how many people are stacking their Phoenix?

 Due to space constraints, i am thinking of stacking, but little concerned about the potential heat issue.

 Those who are stacking, are you just stacking as is, or are you using some form of third party 'feet'?


----------



## scootermafia

I have them side by side, seems to keep them cooler. There's also adhesive ERS sheets on the inner side of the lids of each and two sheets in the DAC8/Ref1.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tosehee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_off-topic, but how many people are stacking their Phoenix?

 Due to space constraints, i am thinking of stacking, but little concerned about the potential heat issue.

 Those who are stacking, are you just stacking as is, or are you using some form of third party 'feet'?_

 

If you *have* to stack, put PSU on top and spacers in between. A good cheap solution would be somve PVC pipe from Home Depot, cut 4 pieces to go around the feet and paint to match your favorite band's colors or Goth black... Rustoleum Hammered Texture is one of my favorites.

 Also, leave as much room around as possible for air movement.

 If you know the length of the pieces, home depot may cut the pieces for you.


----------



## punk_guy182

I have them stacked on top of each other due to space constraints.


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If you *have* to stack, put PSU on top and spacers in between. A good cheap solution would be somve PVC pipe from Home Depot, cut 4 pieces to go around the feet and paint to match your favorite band's colors or Goth black... Rustoleum Hammered Texture is one of my favorites.

 Also, leave as much room around as possible for air movement.

 If you know the length of the pieces, home depot may cut the pieces for you._

 

Thanks for the tip. I will look into that cheap solution. Thanks


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tosehee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks for the tip. I will look into that cheap solution. Thanks_

 

Ghetto Audio! The Hammered Texture stuff looks pretty good.

 I bought an old Cast iron Solder pot off ebay for $85. Looked like hell. It had a cracked knob on it, that I ordered a new one for. I Painted it with that Hammered Texture Rustoleum, and replaced the knob. Then I saw a Brand new un-used $400 Plato solder pot, I snagged for $95! I sold the newly painted solder pot for $105. Win-Win! That Paint can turn a Turd into Pâté!!


----------



## ztsen

Anyone can share impression for Phoenix + other balanced dac then ref1?


----------



## Skylab

I have the units stacked as well due to space constraints - another great and very cheap spacer is the hockey puck. Pucks can be had for less than $2 each, look good, and are actually terrific vibration absorbers. One of the greatest cheap audio tweaks ever.


----------



## punk_guy182

Anyone where to get a cheap desktop audio rack or small one?
 i can't ind anything under 50$. I might consider asking someone to make me one.


----------



## Skylab

How about $10:

IKEA | Food storage & organizing | Wine racks | HUTTEN | 9-bottle wine rack


----------



## laevi

I just noticed that the output impedance for the Phoenix is 3 ohms (headphone amp), according to its specifications page.

 I have read in the DAC1 thread that a headphone amplifier's output impedance should strive to be < 1 ohm. In fact, it's supposed to be one of the features of the DAC1's headphone amp. Now, don't get me wrong, my ears are quite happy with the Phoenix and much prefer it to the DAC1's headamp, but I just thought that it was interesting.

 Also, after reading the Reference One thread (because I'm mulled over replacing my DAC1 with the Ref1), I placed my ear next to the PS unit on the Phoenix and noticed what must be the transfomer hum that's also reported present with the Ref1. My Fluke multimeter and Kill-a-Watt measure 120.6 and 120.0 volts from that outlet, respectively. That hum isn't a problem for me because it's nearly inaudible, but would there be a way to get rid of it if someone were so inclined?


----------



## Currawong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ztsen* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Anyone can share impression for Phoenix + other balanced dac then ref1?_

 

I had the chance to try a Marantz Project D-1 recently, along with an Assemblage DAC3. The Marantz is famous as it was their effort at making the best DAC possible, with the best chips (TDA1541S2 Double-crown x2). The Assemblage is a PCM1704-based design like the Ref 1. The Assemblage "sounds" like its output stage, which consists of OPA627s which give a warm, tube-like sound, but not as much detail as the Ref 1. With the Phoenix and HD-800s, I had trouble finding any difference between the Marantz and Ref 1. I actually have XLR interconnects that affect the sound more, in that they alter it tonally (Nordost Heimdall, to be specific). I felt I needed a top-of-the-line Stax rig to better assess any differences in detail, which I didn't have on hand. Both seem to avoid imparting anything at all on the music.

 I realise that neither of the above DACs are common on Head-fi, but the only other significant DACs I've tried side-by-side are the Northstar M192 MK1, and an older Benchmark DAC1, and the Ref 1 is miles better than both, the Northstar sounding dull and muddy and the DAC1 harsh and unrefined in comparison.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *laevi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just noticed that the output impedance for the Phoenix is 3 ohms (headphone amp), according to its specifications page.

 I have read in the DAC1 thread that a headphone amplifier's output impedance should strive to be < 1 ohm. In fact, it's supposed to be one of the features of the DAC1's headphone amp. Now, don't get me wrong, my ears are quite happy with the Phoenix and much prefer it to the DAC1's headamp, but I just thought that it was interesting.

 Also, after reading the Reference One thread (because I'm mulled over replacing my DAC1 with the Ref1), I placed my ear next to the PS unit on the Phoenix and noticed what must be the transfomer hum that's also reported present with the Ref1. My Fluke multimeter and Kill-a-Watt measure 120.6 and 120.0 volts from that outlet, respectively. That hum isn't a problem for me because it's nearly inaudible, but would there be a way to get rid of it if someone were so inclined?_

 

Correct, the headphone output impedance should be as close to zero as possible. However sometimes it is beneficial to actually have a higher output impedance (around 100 ohms) which can round out the tonal balance on certain headphones. Sennheiser states that the ideal output impedance for the HD800 is 0 - 20 ohm. So 3 ohm is pretty good. The lowest I've seen is the Beta22 which has an output impedance of 0.01 ohm. I don't think you'll ever find a true 0 ohm output.

 A few of you have mentioned transformer hum in the Phoenix and the Ref1. I have not noticed this with my units.


----------



## ztsen

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I had the chance to try a Marantz Project D-1 recently, along with an Assemblage DAC3. The Marantz is famous as it was their effort at making the best DAC possible, with the best chips (TDA1541S2 Double-crown x2). The Assemblage is a PCM1704-based design like the Ref 1. The Assemblage "sounds" like its output stage, which consists of OPA627s which give a warm, tube-like sound, but not as much detail as the Ref 1. With the Phoenix and HD-800s, I had trouble finding any difference between the Marantz and Ref 1. I actually have XLR interconnects that affect the sound more, in that they alter it tonally (Nordost Heimdall, to be specific). I felt I needed a top-of-the-line Stax rig to better assess any differences in detail, which I didn't have on hand. Both seem to avoid imparting anything at all on the music.

 I realise that neither of the above DACs are common on Head-fi, but the only other significant DACs I've tried side-by-side are the Northstar M192 MK1, and an older Benchmark DAC1, and the Ref 1 is miles better than both, the Northstar sounding dull and muddy and the DAC1 harsh and unrefined in comparison._

 

I was thinking if I get a XLR dac, I can have the benefit to alter the sound with different cable, only afraid using the Ref1 neutral+neutral end up boring sound. Important to me is must be sound musical than detail, sometime too much detail doesn't mean a good thing. Just like if I go for a live orchestra/guitar performance, I also dont hear so much detail instead more musical.


----------



## tim3320070

This is a misperception IMO- neutral (monitor) is not boring, it's not anything except accurate (which does not mean overly detailed either). It's not boosted in a particular frequency, it has no emphasis towards a "sound". You (or anyone who has not spent time with the Ref-1) just need to hear one before making an assumption like that.
 Fanboy out...


----------



## lmswjm

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tim3320070* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This is a misperception IMO- neutral (monitor) is not boring, it's not anything except accurate (which does not mean overly detailed either). It's not boosted in a particular frequency, it has no emphasis towards a "sound". You (or anyone who has not spent time with the Ref-1) just need to hear one before making an assumption like that.
 Fanboy out..._

 

X2


----------



## Currawong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ztsen* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I was thinking if I get a XLR dac, I can have the benefit to alter the sound with different cable, only afraid using the Ref1 neutral+neutral end up boring sound. Important to me is must be sound musical than detail, sometime too much detail doesn't mean a good thing. Just like if I go for a live orchestra/guitar performance, I also dont hear so much detail instead more musical._

 

Uncle Erik made an interesting point when he switched to HD-800s about how various gear, such as Grados, used "tricks" to be enjoyable-sounding and also how a lot of gear is designed to grab you in the showroom at first listen, but subsequently after purchase these tricks aren't so great. An example is boosted mid-bass on a lot of headphones that gives body to the music and makes it fun to listen to, but is a kind of distortion. Boosted treble that gives the impression of more detail is another.

 I did note that Kingwa designs two types of hi-fi gear, one that is dead neutral, and another that is more warm and music, as he found people either have a taste for one type or the other. Having listened with a good mid-range tube amp recently, I understand why people like this "sound" compared to solid state gear.


----------



## ford2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Uncle Erik made an interesting point when he switched to HD-800s about how various gear, such as Grados, used "tricks" to be enjoyable-sounding and also how a lot of gear is designed to grab you in the showroom at first listen, but subsequently after purchase these tricks aren't so great. An example is boosted mid-bass on a lot of headphones that gives body to the music and makes it fun to listen to, but is a kind of distortion. Boosted treble that gives the impression of more detail is another.

 I did note that Kingwa designs two types of hi-fi gear, one that is dead neutral, and another that is more warm and music, as he found people either have a taste for one type or the other. Having listened with a good mid-range tube amp recently, I understand why people like this "sound" compared to solid state gear._

 

In other words you enjoy the way that tubes distort the music signal.
 And the way that you can tube roll to tailor the distortion to match your cans.
 All audio gear has its own signature,the only person who knows what a piece of music should sound like is the person who mastered it.


----------



## lmswjm

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ford2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_the only person who knows what a piece of music should sound like is the person who mastered it._

 

Nobody has a definitive say on how music should sound. That's why we have a colossal amount of opinions on head-fi, so we can personalize to our tastes.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ford2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_In other words you enjoy the way that tubes distort the music signal.
 And the way that you can tube roll to tailor the distortion to match your cans.
 All audio gear has its own signature,the only person who knows what a piece of music should sound like is the person who mastered it._

 

Except that his gear, wires, board and connectors are coloring it as well.


----------



## ztsen

Even live performance for classical music also depend on the architecture of the building, presenting at different venue also make a lot of different.


----------



## punk_guy182

I know Audio-GD gear is good for sweet vocal music but I think that Kingwa should test and try his gear out with something else than nice charming vocal music.
 For the record, I'd like a neutral sound over a sweet musical one because I don't want my punk rock records sound like a friggin' fairy tale but before making a final judgement I'd liek to upgrade to RE1 insted of Compass when using Phoenix.


----------



## punk_guy182

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How about $10:

IKEA | Food storage & organizing | Wine racks | HUTTEN | 9-bottle wine rack_

 

Thanks for the tip Skylab but I don't think you can fit RE1, Phoenix (side by side) and Panther and it doesn't have to be desktop rack. Phoenix takes at least 50 in width when placed side by side.
 Let me know if you have something better in mind.


----------



## Currawong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ford2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_In other words you enjoy the way that tubes distort the music signal.
 And the way that you can tube roll to tailor the distortion to match your cans.
 All audio gear has its own signature,the only person who knows what a piece of music should sound like is the person who mastered it._

 

I've been reliably informed that tubes are more linear than transistors and that there are tube amps that are not at all "warm-sounding" or distorted, being more a factor of how the amp is designed. I agree though that a lot of mix-and-match goes on with gear to get a good sound. Some of this could be impedance matching though that is the issue, though I'm sure a lot of it has to do with tonality.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *punk_guy182* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks for the tip Skylab but I don't think you can fit RE1, Phoenix (side by side) and Panther and it doesn't have to be desktop rack. Phoenix takes at least 50 in width when placed side by side.
 Let me know if you have something better in mind. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

50 inches? You mean 50 cm. Each chassis is only 9.8 inches wide.


----------



## jimmychan

Tube amp has more even harmonics that is more pleasant to human ear.


----------



## ford2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've been reliably informed that tubes are more linear than transistors and that there are tube amps that are not at all "warm-sounding" or distorted, being more a factor of how the amp is designed. I agree though that a lot of mix-and-match goes on with gear to get a good sound. Some of this could be impedance matching though that is the issue, though I'm sure a lot of it has to do with tonality._

 

We will see,I am in talks with a tube builder at this time to get a balanced amp that works with low impedance phones [and works good].
 The amp will be tailored to the sound of the CD3000,I hope it works out.


----------



## tim3320070

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *punk_guy182* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks for the tip Skylab but I don't think you can fit RE1, Phoenix (side by side) and Panther and it doesn't have to be desktop rack. Phoenix takes at least 50 in width when placed side by side.
 Let me know if you have something better in mind. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I use this for everything below- sturdy as hell. If your paranoid about it being metal, I have used some ceramic tile to make a solid shelf.

Perfect Home Commercial Grade Decorative Wire 3-Shelf Zinc finish Shelving Storage Unit - 3T25142430Z at The Home Depot


----------



## haloxt

A few months late, but now I got a fan! Went the computer fan route like suggested previously on this thread and got 2x Noctua nf-s12b FLX, an okgear ac/dc adapter with 4 pin molex connector and a Rosewill 12" PWM Splitter (splitter only necessary if using multiple fans from a single power adapter or if fan does not include 4-pin molex adapter). The air circulation makes the psu box slightly and sometimes moderately cooler than the amp box at the lowest setting of 600 rpm 29 cfm which is, to my great surprise, inaudible to my ears at 4-6 inches. 900 rpm and it is inaudible after 4-5 feet, 1200 rpm is much louder, a slight audible hum from 10 feet. 1200 rpm 59 cfm has a tech spec of 18.1 dBA noise, which is the same noise spec as a $100 cooling platform by studiotech (company I got rack from) that only moved 15 cfm of air.

 Inaudibility at 6 inches is really overkill and Noctua is really expensive compared to other quiet fan brands. Next summer I might get a louder fan for the phoenix and steal the noctua nf-s12b for use as a personal fan. So if anyone wants to do computer fan just get a $13 okgear ac/dc power adapter and a 120mm quiet computer case fan that has adapters or something to go slower if necessary. Cheap and silent cooling. Check out my fan stand ^^.


----------



## jsplice

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *punk_guy182* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I know Audio-GD gear is good for sweet vocal music but I think that Kingwa should test and try his gear out with something else than nice charming vocal music.
 For the record, I'd like a neutral sound over a sweet musical one because I don't want my punk rock records sound like a friggin' fairy tale but before making a final judgement I'd liek to upgrade to RE1 insted of Compass when using Phoenix._

 

I think you would notice a huge difference upgrading the dac. I currently own the Compass, and can say that the dac inside is far from reference quality. Comparing it against a DacMagic showed drastic differences. So even if you don't have the money to go all out on a REF 1 Audio-gd dac, there are steps in between that I think you will definitely notice an improvement with.


----------



## punk_guy182

Yes, I 've heard that the SQ of the DAC section of the Compass is not on par with the amp section. But, don't worry! If all goes well, I should order this beast very soon.
 I'm just waiting for the canadian dollar to strengthen up a bit or have IPodPJ sell me his RE1.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *punk_guy182* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes, I 've heard that the SQ of the DAC section of the Compass is not on par with the amp section. But, don't worry! If all goes well, I should order this beast very soon.
 I'm just waiting for the canadian dollar to strengthen up a bit or have IPodPJ sell me his RE1. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I'm not selling the RE1 anytime soon. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 You'll be waiting a long time.


----------



## Charnwood

I’ve had the Phoenix in my system for several months but I’ve retired the Phoenix from pre-amp duties for the present.

 Something I noticed fairly early on with the Phoenix was how similar my various sources sounded through the amp. Coming from an Audio Synthesis Passion Ultimate, which is a top quality passive and very transparent, this was quite apparent. The problem is I find the Phoenix's character to be fairly dominant within the overall sound of the system making it harder to hear the true character of source components, some of which I’ve been auditioning recently.

 Neutrality doesn’t imply transparency and mostly I've been happy to give up some transparency for the extra flexibility and functionality the Phoenix offers. It's just that sometimes I need that transparency.


----------



## fzman

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *XXII* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't know if you know...for every watt you draw from the PPP (or P300), you draw around 2 watts from the wall. So plugging your computer in might not be a good idea from a cost point of view 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

the p300 will draw almost double what it outputs -- the ppp is much more efficient than that. it will draw more than it outputs, but no where near the 2-to-1 of the older units


----------



## googlephone

Just a slight update:

 The P300 has arrived and I have to say the hype is true. The sound difference is not slight. I have not noticed a huge drop in background noise since the Audio-GD gear is pretty good at being silent. Where I hear improvements is the instrument separation. The instruments seem to be better defined and easier to tell apart. It's hard to explain until you hear it. My unit does have the Multiwave, but I cannot really tell a difference between the different variations. 

 I had a couple of issues with my Audio-GD gear that I was relating to dirty power. The first is the same issue Ipodpj had with the the Reference One going out of phase every so often. For me that was just about every 4-6 hours. The second was an issue with a ceiling fan causing the Phoenix to mute every time I turned off the fan. It appears that the fan causes a voltage spike and puts the Phoenix into safety mode and mutes the amp. Since the arrival of the P300 both issues have not shown up.

 With all 3 pieces of gear plugged into the P300 I draw about 100 watts and the unit stay relatively cool.


----------



## tosehee

I am looking forward for demoingy your Transporter and p300. 





  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *googlephone* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just a slight update:

 The P300 has arrived and I have to say the hype is true. The sound difference is not slight. I have not noticed a huge drop in background noise since the Audio-GD gear is pretty good at being silent. Where I hear improvements is the instrument separation. The instruments seem to be better defined and easier to tell apart. It's hard to explain until you hear it. My unit does have the Multiwave, but I cannot really tell a difference between the different variations. 

 I had a couple of issues with my Audio-GD gear that I was relating to dirty power. The first is the same issue Ipodpj had with the the Reference One going out of phase every so often. For me that was just about every 4-6 hours. The second was an issue with a ceiling fan causing the Phoenix to mute every time I turned off the fan. It appears that the fan causes a voltage spike and puts the Phoenix into safety mode and mutes the amp. Since the arrival of the P300 both issues have not shown up.

 With all 3 pieces of gear plugged into the P300 I draw about 100 watts and the unit stay relatively cool._


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *googlephone* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just a slight update:

 The P300 has arrived and I have to say the hype is true. The sound difference is not slight. I have not noticed a huge drop in background noise since the Audio-GD gear is pretty good at being silent. Where I hear improvements is the instrument separation. The instruments seem to be better defined and easier to tell apart. It's hard to explain until you hear it. My unit does have the Multiwave, but I cannot really tell a difference between the different variations. 

 I had a couple of issues with my Audio-GD gear that I was relating to dirty power. The first is the same issue Ipodpj had with the the Reference One going out of phase every so often. For me that was just about every 4-6 hours. The second was an issue with a ceiling fan causing the Phoenix to mute every time I turned off the fan. It appears that the fan causes a voltage spike and puts the Phoenix into safety mode and mutes the amp. Since the arrival of the P300 both issues have not shown up.

 With all 3 pieces of gear plugged into the P300 I draw about 100 watts and the unit stay relatively cool._

 

Thanx, Interesting info here. I have some Active monitors that mute like that whenever anything happens on that circuit. Can be as simple as plugging in a power strip. This started after moving to a new house. Kinda scary actually. The fan deal is very interesting.


----------



## nigeljames

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Charnwood* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I’ve had the Phoenix in my system for several months but I’ve retired the Phoenix from pre-amp duties for the present.

 Something I noticed fairly early on with the Phoenix was how similar my various sources sounded through the amp. Coming from an Audio Synthesis Passion Ultimate, which is a top quality passive and very transparent, this was quite apparent. The problem is I find the Phoenix's character to be fairly dominant within the overall sound of the system making it harder to hear the true character of source components, some of which I’ve been auditioning recently.

 Neutrality doesn’t imply transparency and mostly I've been happy to give up some transparency for the extra flexibility and functionality the Phoenix offers. It's just that sometimes I need that transparency._

 

So how would you describe the Phoenix's character?
 From the info I have read I would assume that it has tube like qualities, very smooth hf's and full lush mids, and is possibly the reason Skylab likes it so much


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nigeljames* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So how would you describe the Phoenix's character?
 From the info I have read I would assume that it has tube like qualities, very smooth hf's and full lush mids, and is possibly the reason Skylab likes it so much
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Personally I would not term it Lush, I would say smooth, powerful, and quiet.


----------



## momomo6789

is it okay to do this kinda cramped for space


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *momomo6789* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_is it okay to do this kinda cramped for space 




_

 

What king of Pucking setup do you call that!


----------



## momomo6789

And their made in RUSSIA ! so i was really wondering what you guys think it will break the phoenix under the weight ?


----------



## tosehee

Idealy, no. Practically, don't think it matters.

 But man. your ref1 + phoenix is dirty.. mine is spotless..


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## momomo6789

its the flash cant see any of that right now lol


----------



## Charnwood

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nigeljames* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So how would you describe the Phoenix's character?
 From the info I have read I would assume that it has tube like qualities, very smooth hf's and full lush mids, and is possibly the reason Skylab likes it so much
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

I think Les_Garten summed it up quite well in his reply to your post. If anything the Phoenix might be a little too smooth. Compared to to the passive what I notice most is that the Phoenix is a little lighter in the upper bass and perhaps as a result it doesn't seem as dynamic.

 Edit: Must emphasis that these comments only apply to the Phoenix when driven single-ended. It's a different beast when balanced.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Charnwood* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think Les_Garten summed it up quite well in his reply to your post. If anything the Phoenix might be a little too smooth. Compared to to the passive what I notice most is that the Phoenix is a little lighter in the upper bass and perhaps as a result it doesn't seem as dynamic._

 


 Pretty accurate description here. It is not what I would term weak in the Bass anywhere, quite the contrary. It may be just real accurate. It has just a hair less upper bass than my DV337SE, which is another real monster amp. They are real close though. You have to really look to hear the difference, and it is exceedingly slight. It is more effortless in it's power delivery than the DV.


----------



## haloxt

After these months of listening to the phoenix at different temperatures and different "warm-up" times I think warm-up is mainly based on temperature not hours of play. The sound signature gets dark and serious when the bottom plate is too hot to keep your hand touching for more than 5 seconds. When it's kept just lukewarm warm by having a small fan trained on it continuously its sound is not as resolving, and slightly more fun sounding, similar to when you are at 2 hours of "warm-up" and remains that way so long as the temp is kept the same by my fan 24/7. When I use this giant fan a few inches from the phoenix so that the exteriors are cold to the touch and then listen after turning off the fan, it gets to sound just like the first hour of turning on the phoenix which sounds all over the place vs. lukewarm temp and hot temp.


----------



## haloxt

I've been wondering if there's significant sound quality improvement by using 4 pin TRRS in a portable headphone amp, whether just separating the grounds or actually having balanced output. That way we could use our balanced headphones portably and at home. Who would be interested in a portable amp that uses a TRRS that is backward compatible with TRS (not sure if it can be)? If you are maybe we should ask audio-gd to test and see if it's worthwhile to either just separate the grounds or run balanced in a portable amp. But in another forum I was told balancing is one of the final things you do though, so there might be little/no improvement doing this in a portable amp. What do you think?

 Edit: Actually what I want is a fully balanced mp3 player/dac/amp all in one package 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. If audio-gd wants to make something like that I'll help do the rockbox software.


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## tim3320070

Can Kingwa make something you carry around? All his stuff requires fork lifts.....
 Sounds like you're talking about a balanced HiFiMan.


----------



## haloxt

That or a hifiman that uses TRRS so the grounds can be kept 100% separate. I asked around and someone said both grounds should short together to S with some TRS jacks, and using TRS in a TRRS jack on an mp3 player should be okay.

 I know small things is contrary to audio-gd's design philosophy, but I want my mp3 player to sound as good as my phoenix 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That or a hifiman that uses TRRS so the grounds can be kept 100% separate. I asked around and someone said both grounds should short together to S with some TRS jacks, and using TRS in a TRRS jack on an mp3 player should be okay.

 I know small things is contrary to audio-gd's design philosophy, but I want my mp3 player to sound as good as my phoenix 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




._

 

I don't see the advantage here. Single ended is also Single grounded. There is no R and L ground channel.


----------



## haloxt

That's what I mean, with single ended the two ground channels are combined which allows some crosstalk. Don't know if there's much benefit to having two separate grounds in portable setups though.


----------



## Currawong

An active ground (eg: M^3, B22 SE) would be more useful IMO.


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's what I mean, with single ended the two ground channels are combined which allows some crosstalk._

 

If you do your grounding right, there should be no crosstalk to speak of.

 Two single ended circuits sharing a singular ground point is nothing like the common contact resistance that you get with a TRS plug.

 se


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_An active ground (eg: M^3, B22 SE) would be more useful IMO._

 

How so?

 It won't do anything to get around the common contact resistance of a TRS connection.

 se


----------



## Lad27

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *momomo6789* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ And their made in RUSSIA !_

 

Nope, Made in Czech Republic.


----------



## shampoosuicide

So, this probably isn't the right place to ask, but I didn't want to start a new thread:

 Is anyone familiar with the Audio-gd S-1 integrated amp?

 I'm thinking of getting either this or a Rotel RA-1062 for a pair of bookshelf speakers.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *shampoosuicide* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So, this probably isn't the right place to ask, but I didn't want to start a new thread:

 Is anyone familiar with the Audio-gd S-1 integrated amp?

 I'm thinking of getting either this or a Rotel RA-1062 for a pair of bookshelf speakers._

 

You may want to look at Tim's FBI-500 for sale in the FS amp pages. It's a beast though compared to the S-1.


----------



## tim3320070

I would agree 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





..........he says pathetically


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Just finished up the first phase of the Phoenix wiring mod. I replaced the wiring on the RCA/XLR outputs and input 5 (RCA) for both channels using Mundorf Silver/Gold 24 awg hook up wire. I also got my RE1 going again (new board was bad as far as I can deduce for now) which will allow me to finally judge the wiring mods done on it (all outputs redone with the same Mundorf stuff) and the inputs using Illuminati COAX.

 I have already tested the Phoenix and it works just fine 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It's way too early to say anything about any changes in SQ although I did notice a small difference in imaging size and location (much more defined I think...I could be hallucinating though from joy that the RE1 is working again) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Here's a pic of what was done this afternoon, the yellow wire is the Mundorf stuff, the rest is stock (for now). The Masking tape (identifying L/R GND/V-/V+ lines) was left on the DC lines since I'll be swapping the stick Thermax copper wire for something better (yet to be determined). It makes life easier for me since the DC jacks are difficult to get at (see) without removing the data board assembly in the center of the back panel.






 Peete.

*MOD SQ impressions UPDATE :* The Mundorf wire is terrific. Details, treble extension, imaging and instrument placement have all improved with dynamic contrast now breathing along with the slightest of details being revealed (such as small variations in a musician's playing style/skill ) effortlessly. Bass has tightened up a hair while 3D imaging has drawn me even further into the recordings ( a big improvement here, kinda shocking by the size of the difference between stock and modified in this area). Transient speed is lightning quick with no ill effects (thinning of mid bass or brittle quality to treble regions). PRAT is improved upon. My initial impression of these mods (to the CD7/RE1 and Phoenix) is totally favorable. The stock wiring as Currawong has pointed out to me (in some private conversations ) is silver plated copper and it does indeed lend a whitish quality to the upper mids and a subtle bit of hardness or etch to the treble region. The stock wiring IMO also lends a homogeneous effect irrespective of the source material. Some head fi members have noticed this "house sound" and wondered what might be the cause of it ? Well the culprit is the stock wire holding things back. The good news here is that wire can be changed 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Not that it's the worst wire going mind you for those perfectly happy that ways things are (stock config), it's just that the Mundorf stuff is so much better (and the Illuminati COAX cable used on the CD7/RE1 mods). This mod along with the mods to the CD7/RE1 are absolutely worth the time, work and expense IMO. More impressions to come...........


----------



## punk_guy182

That is some great news and findings Peete! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Keep 'em up and coming.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just finished up the first phase of the Phoenix wiring mod. I replaced the wiring on the RCA/XLR outputs and input 5 (RCA) for both channels using Mundorf Silver/Gold 24 awg hook up wire. I also got my RE1 going again (new board was bad as far as I can deduce for now) which will allow me to finally judge the wiring mods done on it (all outputs redone with the same Mundorf stuff) and the inputs using Illuminati COAX.

 I have already tested the Phoenix and it works just fine 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It's way too early to say anything about any changes in SQ although I did notice a small difference in imaging size and location (much more defined I think...I could be hallucinating though from joy that the RE1 is working again) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Here's a pic of what was done this afternoon, the yellow wire is the Mundorf stuff, the rest is stock (for now). The Masking tape (identifying L/R GND/V-/V+ lines) was left on the DC lines since I'll be swapping the stick Thermax copper wire for something better (yet to be determined). It makes life easier for me since the DC jacks are difficult to get at (see) without removing the data board assembly in the center of the back panel.






 Peete.

*MOD SQ impressions UPDATE :* The Mundorf wire is terrific. Details, treble extension, imaging and instrument placement have all improved with dynamic contrast now breathing along with the slightest of details being revealed (such as small variations in a musician's playing style/skill ) effortlessly. Bass has tightened up a hair while 3D imaging has drawn me even further into the recordings ( a big improvement here, kinda shocking by the size of the difference between stock and modified in this area). Transient speed is lightning quick with no ill effects (thinning of mid bass or brittle quality to treble regions). PRAT is improved upon. My initial impression of these mods (to the CD7/RE1 and Phoenix) is totally favorable. The stock wiring as Currawong has pointed out to me (in some private conversations ) is silver plated copper and it does indeed lend a whitish quality to the upper mids and a subtle bit of hardness or etch to the treble region. The stock wiring IMO also lends a homogeneous effect irrespective of the source material. Some head fi members have noticed this "house sound" and wondered what might be the cause of it ? Well the culprit is the stock wire holding things back. The good news here is that wire can be changed 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Not that it's the worst wire going mind you for those perfectly happy that ways things are (stock config), it's just that the Mundorf stuff is so much better (and the Illuminati COAX cable used on the CD7/RE1 mods). This mod along with the mods to the CD7/RE1 are absolutely worth the time, work and expense IMO. More impressions to come..........._

 

Nice work! Hard work! The Data Board comes off super easy. I think it's 5.5mm Nut driver. Remove the two cable nuts from the outside of the case and it falls off.


----------



## scootermafia

If I did this mod, I would only be changing the 3 and 4-pin XLR wire outputs for front panel, and the ACSS in/outs.

 Edit, screw this mod. I'd have to unscrew all the transistors and boards to get at those underside solder joints. I'd have to be seriously bored to do it.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *scootermafia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If I did this mod, I would only be changing the 3 and 4-pin XLR wire outputs for front panel, and the ACSS in/outs.

 Edit, screw this mod. I'd have to unscrew all the transistors and boards to get at those underside solder joints. I'd have to be seriously bored to do it._

 

It seems like a nice mod but yeah, what a pain in the ass. Glad it sounds good, Peete. Are you sure the stock wire is silver plated copper? I thought Kingwa said it was silver? If it is silver plated copper that could explain a few things, as I tend to agree with some of the things you've said about it.

 Not sure I'd want to go with gold wire though.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *scootermafia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If I did this mod, I would only be changing the 3 and 4-pin XLR wire outputs for front panel, and the ACSS in/outs.

 Edit, screw this mod. I'd have to unscrew all the transistors and boards to get at those underside solder joints. I'd have to be seriously bored to do it._

 

I'll do that eventually but since I rarely use this amp for cans it seems like an added expense for little gain for me at least. I will however tackle that job just to see where it takes the amp.

 I have only partially completed the mod since my wire strippers only work on 22 awg and larger which was a major PITA in terms of wasted time hand peeling the Teflon insulation off the 24 awg Mundorf wire (tried all kinds of things, super sharp xacto knife, jack knife,side cutters etc)...I say _was _a PITA because I bought a pair of proper strippers today that can handle 20-30 awg solid core now. That being said you don't have to get at the underside of the pcb...the wiring is installed on the topside of the pcb at the A-gd factory. The through holes are plated 100% giving one the option to install from the top. To get to that ACSS jack however you will have to uninstall the wiring above it and to the sides...it's tight in there. To help with a little additional room I took off the side panels and the rear pillars as well as unbolting the back panel. For the ACSS jacks and the lower RCA inputs near them I'm going to remove the top 2 XLR jacks entirely including wiring first and work from the bottom up starting at the DC jacks. Les has a good tip for getting the Data panel out of the way to get at the DC jack wiring. Should be a piece of cake after that 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Nice work! Hard work! The Data Board comes off super easy. I think it's 5.5mm Nut driver. Remove the two cable nuts from the outside of the case and it falls off._

 

Thanks Les I saw those hex nuts but decided against any further work that day since I had run out of time (for that particular day). I have some more wire on order to complete the DC lines (internally) and I need a fair bit more of the Mundorf wire to make up a set of 1M ACSS cables. Thanks for the encouragement and praise, it is greatly appreciated 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It seems like a nice mod but yeah, what a pain in the ass. Glad it sounds good, Peete. Are you sure the stock wire is silver plated copper? I thought Kingwa said it was silver? If it is silver plated copper that could explain a few things, as I tend to agree with some of the things you've said about it.

 Not sure I'd want to go with gold wire though._

 

All mods of this type are a PITA, it just depends on how much patience you have. I have loads of patience and don't get flustered easily so that helps 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I asked Kingwa quite a while ago if the hook up wire he uses is silver but he said the company uses silver plated stranded copper unless that has changed of late. The Mundorf stuff is 99% silver with 1% gold so the aural results are definitely way more silver like than gold. The alloy mix is unique with lots of very positive feedback from others using the stuff. I took one for the team to see how it would turn out.....I can say it's very very good to my ears and isn't too costly compared to other brands. 

 I'm totally pleased with the results thus far and will complete the back end rewire of the Phoenix this week (health permitting). The cables are the next job after the rewire job is complete but I don't envision that job as being difficult compared to the back end of the Phoenix chassis...talk about tight spaces 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...I have a couple of nice burns (little ones) on the digits to show for the tight quarters (better my fingers and knuckles than a relay or some other part being melted)...I'll live 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 None of you lads have to follow my lead or use the same materials (go nuts or do nothing, it's all about seeing where some additional $$ spent takes these units)............that said cheers all 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Peete.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *punk_guy182* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That is some great news and findings Peete! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Keep 'em up and coming. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Thanks PG !.....I'm listening as I type right now (some Sphongle is hitting the spot)
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Peete.


----------



## haloxt

Is it preferable to use the same wire type (ie copper, silver, spc) throughout the audio chain? I'm thinking about trying spc headphone cable since the internal wiring and interconnects of audio-gd gear is spc (if anyone is getting anything from audio-gd can you ask them for 50 ft of hookup wire for me so I can make a headphone cable 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Not necessarily haloxt ...you can mix and match with ICs. I would however keep all internal chassis analog I/O wiring uniform and of the same makeup and gauge. For instance I plan on using either UP OCC copper or solid silver for the DC lines while you know what I'm using already with the signal pathways. The choice of wire is dictated somewhat by it's intended use and application WRT the piece of gear your working on (digital connections like 75 ohm coax and so on)

 There is no reason why you couldn't change up the cabling type and geometries for IC's or headphone cabling (heck there are so many possibilities there it's mind boggling).

 Peete.


----------



## scootermafia

This is encouraging that I probably won't have to do any soldering from the underside if the Ref1/DAC8 boards are like the Phoenix inside, that I simply desolder the wires from the top and unscrew the board (after labeling, lol 10000 white wires) to swap out the board and make my DAC8 into a ref1. Any warnings Peete?


----------



## Currawong

The worst part is unscrewing the FETs and re-attaching them again. The wiring isn't so bad IMO.


----------



## Audio-Omega

Has anyone ever compared Phoenix to RSA Apache ?


----------



## hpz

Hi guys i was wondering what gain level is the phoenix in SE mode ?

 Also does the phoenix use a stepped attenuator? 

 thanks
 HPZ


----------



## Currawong

I'm not sure if the Phoenix actually has a stated gain level. There are either 70 or 99 volume steps in the electronic volume control (depending on what you set it to), which uses resistors and relays. Have a read of the Phoenix web page about the volume control, if you haven't already. The circuitry isn't the same as that of a conventional amplifier in many respects.


----------



## hpz

OK well i'll rephrase my question and say, has anyone tried the phoenix with IEMs? Does it hiss? and how much of the 0 -70 or 0-99 volume do you use?

 Thanks you

 HPZ


----------



## Currawong

Moderate level listening with my UE TF10s is at 10/70. Would be higher on the 99-step volume setting, with more steps. Zero hiss at any volume level with the music not playing and the Ref 1 as the source, as I had expected. That's the result, from my understanding, of keeping as much of the electronics as possible not directly related to the signal amplification in a separate box.

 On another note (ha!) my TF10s sound damn good, apart from their mid-bass bloat. I'd love to try JH13s with it.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Here are some pics to chew on........this mod was a PITA but not so horrible for anyone with enough patience to see it through.





 Swapped out the stock Thermax 18 awg on the V+ V- rails with 20 awg soft annealed solid silver (5 nines stuff) in Teflon tubing in both units (PSU/AMP). The rest of the wring is the Mundorf silver/gold stuff (24 awg). It took all 8 ft (Mundorf) and around 2 ft of solid silver to complete this job





 Here you can see a good way to access the ACSS/XLR and remaining RCA inputs. As Les said last week a hex wrench allows the Data header pcb to be removed out of the way to get at the DC line jacks while giving just enough room to work with WRT to the ACSS/RCA/XLR jack. The side panels, rear pillars have to be removed....kinda self explanatory since room to maneuver is at a premium. It can be done by removing the XLR inputs and setting those aside until you have the bottom row wired up.





 Just another shot of the tight spaces and how close the relays come to the rear pads.

 One important note about the silk screening of the pads. The ACSS pads have the + - pads reversed. Pin 2 for both channels (ACSS + signal) goes to the - pad between gnd and +. Pin 3 is then soldered to the pcb + pad. Found that one out earlier this evening when I tested the amp...both channels were 180 degrees out of phase (it did sound pretty cool for a few minutes though). I knew it right away and quickly remedied the minor fault..

 Anyway if any of you guys are thinking of a similar mod, keep this info in mind. The rest of pads for the inputs are correctly marked. The output pads area bit strange so just copy down the pin assignments for those before taking the stock wiring off otherwise you'll have a real hard time figuring out what goes where. Simply copy those outputs (and the inputs assignments for good measure) on a sheet of paper....then you are good to go 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			









 Another shot of the work as it progresses...







 Just about done........the final step here is to align and dress the wiring before putting the Data board back into place..





 Here is the nearly completed reassembly of the amp.......now the fun starts, evaluation 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Stay tuned for some impressions to come. I found this project very well worth all the effort and somewhat minimal expense. It certainly has improved all three pieces of gear I've modified.

 The last step for this amp is to replace the stock wiring to the head amp jacks and make up some custom ACSS and DC cables. That will have to wait until I have the $$ to tackle that job. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I almost forgot, before I completed this mod today I had a really good listen to the head amp output over the last weekend. The differences from stock are even more magnified using cans, wow ! A definite improvement. I wonder what's in store using some decent wire here in place of the stock Thermax ? I look forward to that day (typical DIY junkie I am) when I can find that out for myself !

 This sucker took me about 3.5 days to complete (not including the time spent with the DOA board for the RE1) but that entails work on the CD7/RE1 and Phoenix. I'd say the Phoenix mod took the lion's share of that time (2 days for sure). It's a pretty simple mod from a technical standpoint which is why I was able to tackle it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Time to spin some discs !

 Peete.


----------



## laevi

Has any Phoenix owner experienced the following:

 I left my Phoenix on today for 8-9 hours without playing anything. When I finally played something through it, no sound came out of it. Neither singled ended or balanced via the XLR 4-pin amp outputs. The LED display works. The remote works.

 I tried turning it off and back on several times. I hit the debug button several times and cycle through the memory/volume settings. I press the Preamp button on/off several times. I usually only have XLR Input 2 connected to a source, but I tried connecting a source to RCA Input 1. Still no sound. I tried turning the volume to 00 and back to my normal setting. 

 I check the XLR outputs of my DAC, and that works. I check the cable connections, and nothing is loose/disconnected. Ambient temperature around the Phoenix has been around 72 degrees all day with it on. 

 Lastly, I hit the Preamp button ON, and turn on my speaker amps fed by the Phoenix. Sound comes out of it. I press the Preamp button OFF, and check my headphones again. Now, finally, sound is heard out of my headphones.

 What happened? I definitely don't want to go through that experience again, but I am now beginning to worry about the Phoenix holding up over the long run.


----------



## laevi

What the heck? The Phoenix just stopped working again while in the middle of being used! This time, its failure extends to its Preamp abilities for my speakers too.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *laevi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What the heck? The Phoenix just stopped working again while in the middle of being used! This time, its failure extends to its Preamp abilities for my speakers too._

 

Does the preamp LED turn on and off with the button?


----------



## lmswjm

I've had some similar weird stuff happen with the Phoenix in the past. For the most part, it functioned normally. When there was no sound, I suspected the data cable, but never could find any thing conclusive. 

 Then one day the preamp indicator LED went out. Kingwa sent me a new one, and I soldered it in. Luckily I haven't had an issue since. 

 Could be a short of some kind. Yikes and Les may have some ideas. Kingwa was helpful, but as we know, problems that come and go are hard to diagnose. Though an internal inspection would probably be fruitless, this would be the first place to start.

 .


----------



## scootermafia

Swapped out the BNC wiring in my Ref1. It sure is a bitch to desolder stuff from the top. Any secret to it that you boardwork pros have? Are you removing the boards completely and desoldering from the underside of the board? I'm a big noob when it comes to working with circuit boards.


----------



## laevi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Does the preamp LED turn on and off with the button?_

 

I hadn't noticed, but now that you've mentioned it, the preamp LED does not turn on and off with the button. It's always on.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *laevi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I hadn't noticed, but now that you've mentioned it, the preamp LED does not turn on and off with the button. It's always on._

 


 There are some caps in the protection/delay circuit that may have gone bad. It's fixable. Contact Kingwa for the fix.


----------



## laevi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There are some caps in the protection/delay circuit that may have gone bad. It's fixable. Contact Kingwa for the fix._

 

Do you if this will become a recurring problem? I don't have the electrical handiness that many here have, so I'm at a bit of a disadvantage.

 Thanks for all your help.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *laevi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Do you if this will become a recurring problem? I don't have the electrical handiness that many here have, so I'm at a bit of a disadvantage.

 Thanks for all your help._

 

He got some bad caps that are having premature failures. He realized this and quit using them. I don't know when he stopped and how many are effected. Contact him and he will take care of it for you, no worries.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *scootermafia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Swapped out the BNC wiring in my Ref1. It sure is a bitch to desolder stuff from the top. Any secret to it that you boardwork pros have? Are you removing the boards completely and desoldering from the underside of the board? I'm a big noob when it comes to working with circuit boards._

 

I solder from the top but I rarely add solder to the pads I'm working on since a very small amount is all you need. When the stock wiring is removed (by carefully heating the wire and the solder pad equally using a very light touch and a narrow solder head) there is enough material left behind to use with the new wire (90% of the time). Of course if you want to add some more solder do so, but don't add very much. As far as technique for soldering from the top side it takes a little practice to get right but it's fairly easy to learn what works and what doesn't. Use a scrap board to hack around on until your skill is up to snuff. I don't remove the pcb's since doing so involves a lot of extra work for Kingwa's gear (the V regs all bolted to the bottom plate are a fiddly PITA to deal with but even that additional work is easy to deal with using the right tools). The factory wiring is installed from the top side so doing it this way is perfectly fine as long as you are careful (no soldering bridging between pads,lifted or burnt pads from poor use of the iron, IE too much force). 

 My main rule for soldering irons both cheap and expensive is the same....let the heat of the iron do it's job and never hold it on any pad/component for longer than is necessary (which entails knowing what sections need higher temps/ power rating,vs areas that require less of each). In a nutshell 2 or 3 seconds with a iron on the average spot is an eternity. The one caveat to the 2-3 second rule is pads attached to a large ground plane or a device that is attached to a large heat sink (like a V reg). I use a 45 watt iron exclusively for that work and the rest of the time a 15-25W pencil iron does the trick nicely.

 Hope that helps a bit Scooter

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There are some caps in the protection/delay circuit that may have gone bad. It's fixable. Contact Kingwa for the fix._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_He got some bad caps that are having premature failures. He realized this and quit using them. I don't know when he stopped and how many are effected. Contact him and he will take care of it for you, no worries._

 

Any details on the caps that went bad (areas, make and size) Les ? 

 I notice he used some Teapo and Jamicon caps in some spots which are known brands that put out pure garbage from time to time. I know when I pulled the chassis lid on the Adcom GFP-750 preamp last fall I was horrified to see to Jamicon caps all over the place (which are gone now in massive rebuild of that unit). That rebuild I caught just in time as many of those caps were obviously about to go bad (bulging tops and some electrolyte material beginning to seep from the bottoms of others). The main PSU caps were high quality CDE which was a welcome sight amongst other good quality parts that were kept. Anyway that's enough about that...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Incidentally my 2 large SS amps used some mains caps that are of dubious quality and origin which are also starting to bulge on the top......I had Kingwa track me down 24 x 10K 63V NoVer's to replace them with (the original make is TTNT which I've never heard of before). Klaus at Odyssey was trying to sell me some fancy pants caps to replace the crappy ones he used (at 25US a pop per cap)....scam artist that he is (amp has a 20 year warranty).........I chose NoVer at 6.50US per cap. Kingwa saved the day on that one and it wasn't even his amp. Whoops went a little off the beaten path here.............

 Peete.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Oh if you guys can post where these trouble spots are I can develop a "how to" guide that will be easy to follow for noob and veteran alike to remedy the situation.

 For those members averse to such things (anything DIY WRT to electronics) I volunteer to do that work for our N American Head Fi members.

 Peete.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I solder from the top but I rarely add solder to the pads I'm working on since a very small amount is all you need. When the stock wiring is removed (by carefully heating the wire and the solder pad equally using a very light touch and a narrow solder head) there is enough material left behind to use with the new wire (90% of the time). Of course if you want to add some more solder do so, but don't add very much. As far as technique for soldering from the top side it takes a little practice to get right but it's fairly easy to learn what works and what doesn't. Use a scrap board to hack around on until your skill is up to snuff. I don't remove the pcb's since doing so involves a lot of extra work for Kingwa's gear (the V regs all bolted to the bottom plate are a fiddly PITA to deal with but even that additional work is easy to deal with using the right tools). The factory wiring is installed from the top side so doing it this way is perfectly fine as long as you are careful (no soldering bridging between pads,lifted or burnt pads from poor use of the iron, IE too much force). 

 My main rule for soldering irons both cheap and expensive is the same....let the heat of the iron do it's job and never hold it on any pad/component for longer than is necessary (which entails knowing what sections need higher temps/ power rating,vs areas that require less of each). In a nutshell 2 or 3 seconds with a iron on the average spot is an eternity. The one caveat to the 2-3 second rule is pads attached to a large ground plane or a device that is attached to a large heat sink (like a V reg). I use a 45 watt iron exclusively for that work and the rest of the time a 15-25W pencil iron does the trick nicely.

 Hope that helps a bit Scooter





 Any details on the caps that went bad (areas, make and size) Les ? 

 I notice he used some Teapo and Jamicon caps in some spots which are known brands that put out pure garbage from time to time. I know when I pulled the chassis lid on the Adcom GFP-750 preamp last fall I was horrified to see to Jamicon caps all over the place (which are gone now in massive rebuild of that unit). That rebuild I caught just in time as many of those caps were obviously about to go bad (bulging tops and some electrolyte material beginning to seep from the bottoms of others). The main PSU caps were high quality CDE which was a welcome sight amongst other good quality parts that were kept. Anyway that's enough about that...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Incidentally my 2 large SS amps used some mains caps that are of dubious quality and origin which are also starting to bulge on the top......I had Kingwa track me down 24 x 10K 63V NoVer's to replace them with (the original make is TTNT which I've never heard of before). Klaus at Odyssey was trying to sell me some fancy pants caps to replace the crappy ones he used (at 25US a pop per cap)....scam artist that he is (amp has a 20 year warranty).........I chose NoVer at 6.50US per cap. Kingwa saved the day on that one and it wasn't even his amp. Whoops went a little off the beaten path here.............

 Peete._

 

The Cpas circled in green are the ones that go bad. You can see some jumpers I was using for troubleshooting.


----------



## scootermafia

God this Metcal Sp200 iron is pissing me off. It has this Smartheat thing like it is supposed to know the right soldering temperature. It's great for making clean low heat solder joints on cables, the main reason why I bought it. It doesn't melt stuff unintentionally the way some irons will as it uses the minimum soldering temperature. But good God, it sucks for boardwork.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Thanks Les....I'll have to pull my unit from the rack to get a closer look at the brand, size and V rating these 4 are.......looks like the only way to access these pads is from the underside. Pulling off the bottom plate while leaving everything intact is the best way to go about this. It involves unbolting the nuts that hold Voltage regulators to that bottom plate and removing the bolts that hold the pcb standoffs to the bottom plate. It's much easier than pulling the pcb from the chassis. This way you just take the top and the bottom off which will give you access to both sides. It's easier than it sounds.

 Ok I'll need to Doctor up a pic of both top and bottom to show what needs to be removed. A good trick for keeping the V regulator bolts in place is to use masking tape on them from the underside, it keeps them in place for reassembly making a PITA fiddly job a much easier prospect. I used that one on the RE1's digital board last month. Worked like a charm. A socket wrench using an extension to remove and tighten the nuts is quick and efficient. These nuts are snug and not tight so they are easy to remove/reinstall.

 If anyone has their amp handy could you post a clean shot of the bottom plate please, that would be greatly appreciated. That would give me a head start on the "How To" before I pull my amp section from my ref system rack. I'm listening to it as I type and enjoying the wiring mods immensely 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Peete.


----------



## BenBau

I bought this amp a few months ago replacing my Little Dot MK V.
 It sounded a little bit better than my old amp, feeding it analog from my Asus Xonar Essence STX with LME49720HA Op-Amps.
 The next step was a balanced 4-pin cable for my HD650, I chose the APureSound V3. Again, a little bit better, but not night and day.
 Then my Audio-gd DAC-9MK3 came. I connected my Asus soundcard with a Cinch-Cinch digital cable. This was a bit of a disappointment: it sounded bright, "sloppy" and too little bass.
 The finale was last Wednesday, the M2Tech hiFace BNC arrived. The sound? Just one word: amazing. The brightness is all gone and the bass goes as low as my Velodyne DD-18. The soundstage is incredible.

 I'd like to thank you all for showing me the way to reach audio-nirvana. 
 I do not believe it can get better than this (is that English?).


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *BenBau* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I bought this amp a few months ago replacing my Little Dot MK V.
 It sounded a little bit better than my old amp, feeding it analog from my Asus Xonar Essence STX with LME49720HA Op-Amps.
 The next step was a balanced 4-pin cable for my HD650, I chose the APureSound V3. Again, a little bit better, but not night and day.
 Then my Audio-gd DAC-9MK3 came. I connected my Asus soundcard with a Cinch-Cinch digital cable. This was a bit of a disappointment: it sounded bright, "sloppy" and too little bass.
 The finale was last Wednesday, the M2Tech hiFace BNC arrived. The sound? Just one word: amazing. The brightness is all gone and the bass goes as low as my Velodyne DD-18. The soundstage is incredible.

 I'd like to thank you all for showing me the way to reach audio-nirvana. 
 I do not believe it can get better than this (is that English?).




_

 

Nice setup! I used too have a MK V


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks Les....I'll have to pull my unit from the rack to get a closer look at the brand, size and V rating these 4 are.......looks like the only way to access these pads is from the underside. Pulling off the bottom plate while leaving everything intact is the best way to go about this. It involves unbolting the nuts that hold Voltage regulators to that bottom plate and removing the bolts that hold the pcb standoffs to the bottom plate. It's much easier than pulling the pcb from the chassis. This way you just take the top and the bottom off which will give you access to both sides. It's easier than it sounds.

 Ok I'll need to Doctor up a pic of both top and bottom to show what needs to be removed. A good trick for keeping the V regulator bolts in place is to use masking tape on them from the underside, it keeps them in place for reassembly making a PITA fiddly job a much easier prospect. I used that one on the RE1's digital board last month. Worked like a charm. A socket wrench using an extension to remove and tighten the nuts is quick and efficient. These nuts are snug and not tight so they are easy to remove/reinstall.

 If anyone has their amp handy could you post a clean shot of the bottom plate please, that would be greatly appreciated. That would give me a head start on the "How To" before I pull my amp section from my ref system rack. I'm listening to it as I type and enjoying the wiring mods immensely 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Peete._

 

You have the access idea down, thats how it goes.


----------



## punk_guy182

DAC 19MK3 is a great neutral detailed sounding DAC but it has no jitter correction. It should pair greatly with HiFace which eliminates jitter.
 Reference One is a great DAC that corrects correct jitter and it goes very well with the Phoenix. I thought of getting the HiFace but I won't gain much.


----------



## BenBau

The Audio-gd DAC-9MK3 ($1100) is a Ref One ($1550) without the DSP. The analog stages are the same. The DAC-19MK3 ($480) is an entirely different class. Kingwa stated he tweaked the DIR9001 circuitry in the DAC-9, reducing the jitter to 20PS. That's not audible anymore.
 I do not believe you cannot gain much. The source is the most imported thing in the audio-chain. A Realtek mainboard audio-chip is not a good source. Reducing or rejecting jitter from a bad source is not the same as making it sound perfect. There's more to a digital signal than jitter.

 P.S. That's why I bought the DAC-9 and not the Ref1. I don't like the word "correction" in jitter correction. It tells you it changes something and that always has a side-effect. I chose the "neutral" pathway and that means you have to start with a as-much-as perfect source as possible and not "correct" the signal along the way.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *BenBau* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Then my Audio-gd DAC-9MK3 came. I connected my Asus soundcard with a Cinch-Cinch digital cable. This was a bit of a disappointment: it sounded bright, "sloppy" and too little bass.
 The finale was last Wednesday, the M2Tech hiFace BNC arrived. The sound? Just one word: amazing. The brightness is all gone and the bass goes as low as my Velodyne DD-18. The soundstage is incredible.

 I'd like to thank you all for showing me the way to reach audio-nirvana. 
 I do not believe it can get better than this (is that English?).




_

 

There are certain people on this forum who will try to convince you that transports (soundcards, Squeezebox, your M2Tech hiFace, CD players) will make no difference at all connected to a DAC as long as they output a bit-perfect signal. I suggest you not listen to those people. As you can see, they do certainly make a difference.


----------



## BenBau

Yes IPodPJ, that was the biggest revelation for me, these last months.
 Changing from Asus STX sp/diff to M2Tech hiFace sp/diff has been the most significant upgrade soundquality-wise.

 It's not only the sp/diff. The Asus STX driver does terrible things to the audio to begin with, even in ASIO. The hiFace just passes the bits.


----------



## punk_guy182

My Realtek ALC889A just passes the bits also. It is bit perfect capable. You have to convince me more in paying 200$ for the hiFace.
 Tosehee reported that there wasn't that much of a difference in SQ with his RE1 and the Hiface.
 By jitter correction I meant jitter elimination or reduction.


----------



## BenBau

My point is that jitter reduction, elimination, correction or whatever you call it, means that you do something to the signal. There's a chance that this "action" also damages parts of the signal that are not jitter but "sound". Every correction has side-effects, so why not start with the best possible signal?

 I was not intending to convince you to buy anything. I was just sharing my enthusiasm.


----------



## BenBau

double post


----------



## pekingduck

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *BenBau* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My point is that jitter reduction, elimination, correction or whatever you call it, means that you do something to the signal. There's a chance that this "action" also damages parts of the signal that are not jitter but "sound". Every correction has side-effects, so why not start with the best possible signal?

 I was not intending to convince you to buy anything. I was just sharing my enthusiasm._

 

If I remember correctly, jitter reduction DOES not alter the bits itself..only the timing is changed (reclocked).


----------



## Currawong

Have a search for Dan Lavry's posts on it, where it talks about it, but basically, as digital audio is a measurement of an analogue signal at evenly spaced points, if in conversion back to analogue the timing of the bits is uneven, the resulting analogue signal will be distorted, in practical cases, very subtly.

[size=xx-small]How do you guys manage to talk about DACs all the time in the Phoenix thread and amps in the Ref 1 thread?!??![/size]


----------



## GreenLeo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pekingduck* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If I remember correctly, jitter reduction DOES not alter the bits itself..only the timing is changed (reclocked)._

 

agree.


----------



## lmswjm

Early / Immediate amp impressions 

 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 I received the HE5 / EF5 combo late afternoon yesterday. All the talk about tempermental amplification made me want to sample some ideas. 

 HeadphoneAddict inspired me to try the Qinpu A-6000MKII integrated tube amp to power the HE5 using the speaker outs (his favorable review of the A3).

 Based on Tim (sibilance issues) and Yikes (tested only SE @ NY meet), I wasn't really confident in the Phoenix. 

 I was up 'til 3AM, first building a balanced Mundorf cable and then swapping amps. I got about 7 hrs burn-in on the EF5, 36 hrs on the Qinpu, >500 hrs on the Phoenix. I definitely suffered the sleep deprivation hangover at work today, but it was worth it.

 These are PRELIMINARY findings (I will post again next weekend after the reco'd 200 hours of burn-in on are reached on the EF5):

 First off, I really like the Mundorf. I simply preferred it over the stock cable. I A/B'd it back & forth several times (using an SE adapter on the Mundorf) and have no desire to use the stock any more. That being said, the supplied cable is very good.

 I did not like the A-6000MKII as a headphone amp using the speaker posts. I didn't bother trying to use the preamp outs to power the HE5. Compared to the others, I felt the highs and mids were recessed.

 I thought the EF5 did a nice job. It's got plenty of power to spare. I never went past 12:00 on the dial. I didn't like the high gain setting as it wasn't clean sounding. It kind of strikes me as a "Phoenix Mini-me" in appearance.

 The Phoenix rocks! Yeah I had to turn the vol up a little more, but WOW! , it was so clean and natural sounding that I stopped testing because I got side-tracked listening to the music. I didn't bother testing it SE knowing that it is simply a compromise based on the amp's design. At this premature stage, The Phoenix in my set-up did everything better than the EF5. 

 Phoenix advantages: ACSS inputs, balanced output, better DC cables, proper burn-in.


----------



## FauDrei

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *punk_guy182* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My Realtek ALC889A just passes the bits also. It is bit perfect capable. You have to convince me more in paying 200$ for the hiFace.
 Tosehee reported that there wasn't that much of a difference in SQ with his RE1 and the Hiface.
 By jitter correction I meant jitter elimination or reduction._

 

Headphones aside, my setup had the greatest SQ improvement with introduction of RE-1.

 After that - SPDIF converters brought the biggest SQ leap.

 I have Musiland Monitor 01 USD for a couple of months now. All my DACs (RE-1 included) were improved by using it's digital outputs.

 Few days ago I (finally) received M2Tech BNC hiFace. Preliminary listening (through RE-1 only) says it sounds better than Musiland's toy.

 So, punk_guy182, my vote also goes for SPDIF converter upgrade. If $200 is substantial, go one of Musiland's converters ($80-$120 delivered). I am pretty sure you would not regret it.


----------



## punk_guy182

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *FauDrei* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So, punk_guy182, my vote also goes for SPDIF converter upgrade. If $200 is substantial, go one of Musiland's converters ($80-$120 delivered). I am pretty sure you would not regret it._

 

So what was your setup before using an S/PDIF converter?
 Did you use a S/PDIF cable with no convertor from your computer to the RE1 before switching to the HiFace?
 I'm currently using to RCA to RCA (computer motherboard to RE1).
 Please take also in consideration the quality of the onboard audio codec. Mine is bit perfect capable.

 From what I understand, I won't benefit much from the reclocking process of the HiFace because the RE1 already does some reclocking. I could however benefit from the BNC output of the HiFace but I don't think that increase in SQ is worth the 200$ price tag.

 If I had DAC-19MK3, I would understand the HiFace upgrade. I need to be convinced more to justify the purchase of the HiFace. If you tell me what was your previous setup before upgrading to the HiFace, then maybe I will consider buying it.


----------



## FauDrei

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *punk_guy182* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So what was your setup before using an S/PDIF converter?
 Did you use a S/PDIF cable with no convertor from your computer to the RE1 before switching to the HiFace?_

 

I mainly use my laptop as a source.

 My first DAC was MHDT Paradisea+. Was satisfied with it's USB input until I got HagUsb which performed better. HagUsb is an clean and simple yet effective 16/48 USB to SPDIF converter which performed it's task reliably and generally better than USB inputs of DACs I've came across.

 I thought - this is it, computer SPDIF problem solved, nothing to improve here.

 After a while I got CA DacMagic and the same story repeated here - DacMagic was on par or slightly better through HagUsb.

 Just for testing purposes (wanted to try some 24/96 flacs) I ordered Musiland Monitor 01 USD. It was cheaper than HagUsb ($80 vs. $120) and had some promising specs: asynchronous drivers, bitperfect 24/192 capability, KS and ASIO, with RCA, BNC and optical outputs...

 Got the package, installed it and... my jaw dropped! Deeper bass, clearer details. Very audible. On both DACs. Combination of lower jitter and async drivers must have been responsible for it.

 About that time I had small investigation/adventure with A-GD's Roc headamp/preamp which undoubtedly demonstrated the limits of my DACs and so RE-1 came along... RE-1 has very good filter: DSP-1. It is a small programmable computer on his own: it does buffering, reclocking, oversampling, dithering... whatnot.

 Stange as it may seem, even with this monsterfilter in place RE-1 is "clearer" with 01 USD than it is with f.e. HagUsb or modded Marantz 63 SE. This "transport quality" issue intrigued me to the point of purchasing RE-3, but it's price, limited 16/48 USB capability and, as KingWa confirmed, inability to compare to CD-7 turned me away.

 Still, I was interested enough in USB to SPDIF debates on this forum, to invest further 128€ in BNC hiFace. It took it's time, but it seem it is worth the money and the wait - first listens favour hiFace as "the cleanest" USB to SPDIF converter.

 Now, I do not want to persuade anyone in anything. I'm just sharing my findings with people with similar audio disease. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 punk_guy182, since we do have similar setup - I reckon those $80 or $200 will improve your computer audio as it improved mine.

 ...guys - sorry for hijacking 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Won't happen again...


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *lmswjm* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Early / Immediate amp impressions 

 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 I received the HE5 / EF5 combo late afternoon yesterday. All the talk about tempermental amplification made me want to sample some ideas. 

 HeadphoneAddict inspired me to try the Qinpu A-6000MKII integrated tube amp to power the HE5 using the speaker outs (his favorable review of the A3).

 Based on Tim (sibilance issues) and Yikes (tested only SE @ NY meet), I wasn't really confident in the Phoenix. 

 I was up 'til 3AM, first building a balanced Mundorf cable and then swapping amps. I got about 7 hrs burn-in on the EF5, 36 hrs on the Qinpu, >500 hrs on the Phoenix. I definitely suffered the sleep deprivation hangover at work today, but it was worth it.

 These are PRELIMINARY findings (I will post again next weekend after the reco'd 200 hours of burn-in on are reached on the EF5):

 First off, I really like the Mundorf. I simply preferred it over the stock cable. I A/B'd it back & forth several times (using an SE adapter on the Mundorf) and have no desire to use the stock any more. That being said, the supplied cable is very good.

 I did not like the A-6000MKII as a headphone amp using the speaker posts. I didn't bother trying to use the preamp outs to power the HE5. Compared to the others, I felt the highs and mids were recessed.

 I thought the EF5 did a nice job. It's got plenty of power to spare. I never went past 12:00 on the dial. I didn't like the high gain setting as it wasn't clean sounding. It kind of strikes me as a "Phoenix Mini-me" in appearance.

 The Phoenix rocks! Yeah I had to turn the vol up a little more, but WOW! , it was so clean and natural sounding that I stopped testing because I got side-tracked listening to the music. I didn't bother testing it SE knowing that it is simply a compromise based on the amp's design. At this premature stage, The Phoenix in my set-up did everything better than the EF5. 

 Phoenix advantages: ACSS inputs, balanced output, better DC cables, proper burn-in._

 

Good stuff 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 My experiences with the Mundorf wire have been nothing but positive thus far. I have noticed the wire takes a little bit of time to settle in (around 200 hours or so) so there is more improvement to come with your cable .... I'm seriously considering what you have done ( a balanced cable made of Mundorf for my HD650s) but I will have to wait until after XMAS to fork out the coin for such an undertaking ...32 ft of 24awg Mundorf isn't cheap.

 I finally have all the parts necessary to build my DIY Mundorf based ACSS cables and 5N silver DC lines (what I used in the Phoenix DC lines mod) so that is the last step in the CD7/RE1/Phoenix DIY upgrade package. I hope this last piece of the puzzle is the finishing touch. I certainly do not regret using this wire and the Illumati COAX one bit. There is certainly more to be had from the A-gd gear by doing what I have done. I'm loving the changes the mods brought to the table and can find no negatives whatsoever. I'm impressed by the results to say the least.

 Peete.


----------



## lmswjm

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Good stuff 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 My experiences with the Mundorf wire have been nothing but positive thus far. I have noticed the wire takes a little bit of time to settle in (around 200 hours or so) so there is more improvement to come with your cable .... I'm seriously considering what you have done ( a balanced cable made of Mundorf for my HD650s) but I will have to wait until after XMAS to fork out the coin for such an undertaking ...32 ft of 24awg Mundorf isn't cheap.

 I finally have all the parts necessary to build my DIY Mundorf based ACSS cables and 5N silver DC lines (what I used in the Phoenix DC lines mod) so that is the last step in the CD7/RE1/Phoenix DIY upgrade package. I hope this last piece of the puzzle is the finishing touch. I certainly do not regret using this wire and the Illumati COAX one bit. There is certainly more to be had from the A-gd gear by doing what I have done. I'm loving the changes the mods brought to the table and can find no negatives whatsoever. I'm impressed by the results to say the least.

 Peete._

 

The Mundorf is also a pleasure to work with. Considering that it's hook-up wire, it's not really that stiff for using with phones. I'll be anxiously waiting for your impressions regarding the ACSS and DC cable builds. Good luck!

 .


----------



## Pricklely Peete

PG don't underestimate the quality of the transport to the RE1 having influence on overall sound quality....the CD7 made for a sizable improvement over the previous transports I was using to feed the RE1 without question. It's similar to a good turntable/cartridge combination being crucial to what the phono amp amplifies and then in-turn, sends to your preamp/amp combo. The quality or lack of quality of these stages makes or breaks the entire outcome. I believe 100% in the concept that "Source is King". It applies equally to analog or digital front ends IMO.

 Another unrelated yet somewhat related discovery of mine (of late) has been the huge improvement in SQ that Windows 7 has wrought over both Vista and XP in terms of how it's audio section is handled. The Win7 OS is miles better than XP and somewhat better than Vista at handling audio. I can't get ASIO to play nice with Win7 and Mediamonkey as of yet but using the wavout plugin is damned good none the less. Even DSound is much improved. That being said the CD7 still edges out the Win7/Auzentech Prelude combination WRT listening tests but that gap is now quite a bit smaller. The CD7's specific hardware related ACSS digital out along with it's huge FIFO buffers (64 megabytes of buffering storage and the ability the DVD-Rom has to reread an area of disc giving errors means less error correction guessing) still gives the CD7 an edge the computer can't match. 

 The quality of transport is nothing to take lightly is the moral of this story. The RE1 loves a top notch signal...just like the Phoenix. That analogy goes for any high end hardware IMO.

 Peete.

 EDIT: Thanks Imswjm, I agree with you that the Mundorf stuff is easy to work with as long as you have the proper sized wire strippers (solid core strippers).......if you don't it's a PITA hand peeling the PTFE jacket off that wire. Until I found the correct strippers I was cursing a blue streak trying to prep the wire before installation. I will post impressions and pics of the cables when they are finished.


----------



## Currawong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *lmswjm* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Early / Immediate amp impressions 

 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 I received the HE5 / EF5 combo late afternoon yesterday. All the talk about tempermental amplification made me want to sample some ideas. 

 HeadphoneAddict inspired me to try the Qinpu A-6000MKII integrated tube amp to power the HE5 using the speaker outs (his favorable review of the A3).

 Based on Tim (sibilance issues) and Yikes (tested only SE @ NY meet), I wasn't really confident in the Phoenix. 

 I was up 'til 3AM, first building a balanced Mundorf cable and then swapping amps. I got about 7 hrs burn-in on the EF5, 36 hrs on the Qinpu, >500 hrs on the Phoenix. I definitely suffered the sleep deprivation hangover at work today, but it was worth it.

 These are PRELIMINARY findings (I will post again next weekend after the reco'd 200 hours of burn-in on are reached on the EF5):

 First off, I really like the Mundorf. I simply preferred it over the stock cable. I A/B'd it back & forth several times (using an SE adapter on the Mundorf) and have no desire to use the stock any more. That being said, the supplied cable is very good.

 I did not like the A-6000MKII as a headphone amp using the speaker posts. I didn't bother trying to use the preamp outs to power the HE5. Compared to the others, I felt the highs and mids were recessed.

 I thought the EF5 did a nice job. It's got plenty of power to spare. I never went past 12:00 on the dial. I didn't like the high gain setting as it wasn't clean sounding. It kind of strikes me as a "Phoenix Mini-me" in appearance.

 The Phoenix rocks! Yeah I had to turn the vol up a little more, but WOW! , it was so clean and natural sounding that I stopped testing because I got side-tracked listening to the music. I didn't bother testing it SE knowing that it is simply a compromise based on the amp's design. At this premature stage, The Phoenix in my set-up did everything better than the EF5. 

 Phoenix advantages: ACSS inputs, balanced output, better DC cables, proper burn-in._

 

Thanks for the review. I have been pondering the HE-5 for a while now, but wasn't sure if it would be a good match with the Phoenix. After someone described them as rather boomy with other amps, I suspected that the more neutral Phoenix might actually be a good match, and your post seems to confirm this.


----------



## lmswjm

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks for the review. I have been pondering the HE-5 for a while now, but wasn't sure if it would be a good match with the Phoenix. After someone described them as rather boomy with other amps, I suspected that the more neutral Phoenix might actually be a good match, and your post seems to confirm this._

 

Still really enjoying these phones. They are definitely power hungry though. I don't know how other people have used them on the Phoenix single-ended. I personally would be dissatisfied that way. My advice is don't do it unless you can go balanced.

 I like to listen at times at moderately high volumes. On low level recordings, I have hit 70/70 max volume. Most of my music though has been 40-50's on the 70 scale. It is possible that some might require more power. 

 With 50 hrs on the EF5, the performance gap with the Phoenix has narrowed. Most of the graininess is now gone. An amazing feat considering the aforementioned advantages the Phoenix enjoys. I'll be doing a more thorough eval next weekend to determine if I'm going to keep the EF5. 

 At $899 the HE5/EF5 combo is easily the best value on the head-fi market that I can think of.


----------



## Currawong

Ouch, that's serious volume. I'm going to order enough Mundorf wire to make a few cables too.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

I built the DC cables but made a rookie mistake by not measuring what min length I would need before assembly....
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 No matter I'll convert these 12 inch cables to XLR balanced and use them for the C-2C/Sabre32 balanced DAC project in the spring. 





 Geometry is 3 wire in a loose braid (2 x 20 awg 5N solid silver in Teflon, 1 x 22 awg Legenberg copper gnd wire) with 85% silver plated copper mesh shielding finished in techflex and adhesive shrink wrap. WBT silver solder.

 Next up is the ACSS build........and to redo the DC lines with the proper length that works for my setup preference....

 Peete.


----------



## momomo6789

damn boy using 70 on phoenix , i use 4/70 for denons and 14-22/70 for he-5


----------



## lmswjm

Maybe I've damaged my hearing in my old metal band days as a teenager. I usually listen to the denon's in the 15-30 range. When you get above 50 with the HE-5's, the volume curve greatly diminishes. It doesn't appear to be a linear relationship. There isn't a huge difference between 50 and 70. 

 Please remember to try to post louder for me in the future. I can't usually hear what my wife is saying to me, but I can still hear differences in cables.

 P.S. Great looking cables Peete!

 .


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_PG don't underestimate the quality of the transport to the RE1 having influence on overall sound quality....the CD7 made for a sizable improvement over the previous transports I was using to feed the RE1 without question. It's similar to a good turntable/cartridge combination being crucial to what the phono amp amplifies and then in-turn, sends to your preamp/amp combo. The quality or lack of quality of these stages makes or breaks the entire outcome. I believe 100% in the concept that "Source is King". It applies equally to analog or digital front ends IMO.

 Another unrelated yet somewhat related discovery of mine (of late) has been the huge improvement in SQ that Windows 7 has wrought over both Vista and XP in terms of how it's audio section is handled. The Win7 OS is miles better than XP and somewhat better than Vista at handling audio. I can't get ASIO to play nice with Win7 and Mediamonkey as of yet but using the wavout plugin is damned good none the less. Even DSound is much improved. That being said the CD7 still edges out the Win7/Auzentech Prelude combination WRT listening tests but that gap is now quite a bit smaller. The CD7's specific hardware related ACSS digital out along with it's huge FIFO buffers (64 megabytes of buffering storage and the ability the DVD-Rom has to reread an area of disc giving errors means less error correction guessing) still gives the CD7 an edge the computer can't match. 

 The quality of transport is nothing to take lightly is the moral of this story. The RE1 loves a top notch signal...just like the Phoenix. That analogy goes for any high end hardware IMO.

 Peete.
_

 

x2 Peete.

 I've found the transport/source to be just as important if not more so than any of the pieces of gear in the chain. It is a critical component for insuring a natural, analog-like sound, if you have a good one of course.

 Since you're getting into computer audio, see if you can get a chance to try a Logitech Transporter. It's as good as I've heard computer audio get. The Sonicweld Diverter is no slouch either, and it may be slightly more detailed in the treble. But it is lean compared to the Transporter, which has much more body and detail in midrange and bass, and sounds more natural overall.

 I don't see what all the love for Amarra is for. It adds too much treble presence and sounds like a better version of SRS-WOW. They claim bit perfect but I don't see how at all; maybe bit-perfect input before whatever processing is done to it. The sound coming out of it is way too peaky on almost every piece of music.


----------



## momomo6789

why did you put a arrow on the heatshrink O_o. i am going to put some dc cables together tomorrow stock ones are barely long enough to reach.


----------



## Currawong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *lmswjm* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Maybe I've damaged my hearing in my old metal band days as a teenager. I usually listen to the denon's in the 15-30 range. When you get above 50 with the HE-5's, the volume curve greatly diminishes. It doesn't appear to be a linear relationship. There isn't a huge difference between 50 and 70._

 

Holy cow, I _would_ damage my hearing listening with Denons at 30! Unless you're listening to only old, low-volume classical recordings.


----------



## tim3320070

I thought I listened too loud. When I had the HE-5, the highest I could tolerate was about 35/70- this was very loud.


----------



## lmswjm

Last note on my hearing issues:
 All of the music mentioned is from the baroque classical genre which generally is at lower recorded levels.

 .


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *momomo6789* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_why did you put a arrow on the heatshrink O_o. i am going to put some dc cables together tomorrow stock ones are barely long enough to reach._

 

Originally I had connected the mesh shielding (to pin 4) at the one end (towards the amp section hence the arrow and red ends) to act a drain wire for any RFI/EMI picked up by the shielding but the connector jack throats would not allow that wire to pass (not enough room for the cable diameter ) so I turfed the drain wire idea and cut back the mesh to jack collars strain relief clamps reducing the effective coverage from 97% to around 85-90%. In any event when I rebuild the new cables I'll leave out the arrow since this concept is dead silent as is. The FW designation is something I've been using to describe my workshop (FrankenWORKS) and the various projects and mods I've undertaken in the last 2.5 years. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Peete.


----------



## Audio-Omega

Does Phoenix use high grade components throughout ?


----------



## les_garten

Question for the Phoenix owners. Do your source encoder and volume encoder work 1:1? Like one click is one step on the vol control?

 Mine is somewhat sporadic, it seems to skip clicks without doing anything, then it seems sometimes two clicks may work in a row. Same thing with the source selector. Reason i'm asking is it seems to be "skipping" more clicks or getting less exact. Hard to come up with the exact workding.

 I guess I'll go and set down and start counting steps and clicks.

 What is everyone elses experience? I'm wondering if I need to change the encoders.


----------



## laevi

I know my volume encoder was not 1:1. Sometimes, it would take several clicks of the volume knob before a volume change was indicated by the LED display. (The remote volume control was 1:1 though.) I only had one source, so I didn't change it much. From what I recall, the source encoder was 1:1.

 Les, since my Phoenix is with you for other repairs, have you noticed encoder inconsistencies with it too?


----------



## Currawong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Question for the Phoenix owners. Do your source encoder and volume encoder work 1:1? Like one click is one step on the vol control?

 Mine is somewhat sporadic, it seems to skip clicks without doing anything, then it seems sometimes two clicks may work in a row. Same thing with the source selector. Reason i'm asking is it seems to be "skipping" more clicks or getting less exact. Hard to come up with the exact workding.

 I guess I'll go and set down and start counting steps and clicks.

 What is everyone elses experience? I'm wondering if I need to change the encoders._

 

I have the same problem. Edit: It does this on 70 and 99 steps.


----------



## Skylab

My controls are not 1:1 either - neither of them. They do have some "skips" periodically. This never really bothered me - but it probably shouldn't be that way.


----------



## haloxt

It's always been sporadic for me, curious event and I might get annoyed if I had to change the volume without remote since I change the volume for every album.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have the same problem. I just realised and checked on mine - it's another case of Kingwa neglecting the last 1% of the design: You're using the 70-step option and it's simply skipping one or two steps (resistors), ie: you have to turn the volume control an equal amount when using 70 steps as 99. Of course if you use the remote, one press is one step regardless._

 

Hmmm, so you're saying if you shift it to 99 steps it moves 1:1? That's goofy!


----------



## Skylab

That doesn't explain the selector switch also not being 1:1, though.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That doesn't explain the selector switch also not being 1:1, though._

 

That's true...


----------



## mrarroyo

Use duct tape to cover the indicator! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I am an stinker I know.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mrarroyo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Use duct tape to cover the indicator! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I am an stinker I know._

 

Heh, that solves one problem!

 Doesn't solve the problem of turning a volume knob that already has 70 usable steps and now it has like 300 steps because you have to turn it a number of detents for anything to happen.

 The reason I bring this up is because it seems to be getting worse. I'll look at it critically today. It just seems like at takes more "clicks" to make the realys work.


----------



## les_garten

So I just cranked it up and played with it some more. There is no difference that I can see in the 70 setting from the 99 setting.

 Sometimes it moves a step with 2 clicks, sometimes it is 5 clicks, sometimes it is 15 clicks(detents) before the volume increments. I think this "sloppiness" is getting worse on mine. I can understand it being a certain amount, or a rate of change, but i can't seem to get a pattern out of it. It may be that certain portions of the encoders are not working properly. I swear it's getting worse.

 Anybody else notice this? Count the steps between number changes. You'll notice differences all over the place. At certain places it is 1:1 or 1:2, but not many. Someplaces I have to roll the vol control almost 180 degrees almost to increment the vol 1 notch.


----------



## FauDrei

That is the beauty of Roc's (or any other good) stepped attenuator - perhaps not so fancy, but dead simple and effective. Great example of Citroën 2CV's philosophy - what isn't there cannot be broken.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *FauDrei* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That is the beauty of Roc's (or any other good) stepped attenuator - perhaps not so fancy, but dead simple and effective. Great example of Citroën 2CV's philosophy - what isn't there cannot be broken. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





_

 

Sorry, no comparison. If I had your ROC I would pull that attenuator out and replace it with damn near anything else I could find. Don't take it personal though, unless *you* are a $23 Chinese stepped attenuator selling on Ebay! Then take it personal...

 I think this controller needs the encoders or Firmware tweaked in some Fashion.


----------



## FauDrei

No offense taken. I started joking in the first place.

 ...and I'm quite happy with my _cheap_ 4 channel 23 step attenuator.


----------



## tim3320070

Mine does the same thing but works better the slower I turn it. It is less annoying with 2 glasses of wine, FYI.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tim3320070* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Mine does the same thing but works better the slower I turn it. It is less annoying with 2 glasses of wine, FYI._

 

I understand how that works! I've drank enough wine before that blowing stuff up is barely annoying. I've also noticed a direct linear relationship between Bottles of wine and dead gear!


----------



## lmswjm

I have had similar issues during the break-in period accompanied by audible clicks. >750+hrs later, the ratio is much closer to 1:1 (contrasting with your issue), and about 95% silent. Hope this helps.

 .


----------



## Currawong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hmmm, so you're saying if you shift it to 99 steps it moves 1:1? That's goofy!_

 

No, I was wrong when I tested just now. Maybe I got lucky last night when I tried and it worked perfectly for a bit. Kingwa said it was programmed to avoid overly quick knob movement, but it does this even if I turn the knob slowly. It could probably do without being programmed with this feature. I'd rather the knob always was 1:1 regardless of how fast I spun it.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *lmswjm* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have had similar issues during the break-in period accompanied by audible clicks. >750+hrs later, the ratio is much closer to 1:1 (contrasting with your issue), and about 95% silent. Hope this helps.

 ._

 

I'll have to ask him about this. The initial loud "static" clicks you get when new are the relays wearing in I think. Mine is real quiet in that respect.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No, I was wrong when I tested just now. Maybe I got lucky last night when I tried and it worked perfectly for a bit. Kingwa said it was programmed to avoid overly quick knob movement, but it does this even if I turn the knob slowly. It could probably do without being programmed with this feature. I'd rather 's the knob always was 1:1 regardless of how fast I spun it._

 

Thats how I would prefer it to work as well.


----------



## lmswjm

I should be more specific, it is completely silent most of the time, once in a while I'll still hear the occasional click.


----------



## The Monkey

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No, I was wrong when I tested just now. Maybe I got lucky last night when I tried and it worked perfectly for a bit. Kingwa said it was programmed to avoid overly quick knob movement, but it does this even if I turn the knob slowly. It could probably do without being programmed with this feature. I'd rather the knob always was 1:1 regardless of how fast I spun it._

 

I noticed this when I had the opportunity to hear the Phoenix at the recent NY Meet. I understand the feature's purpose, but I also found it to happen even if the knob was turned slowly. I agree 1:1 all the time would be preferable.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *The Monkey* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I noticed this when I had the opportunity to hear the Phoenix at the recent NY Meet. I understand the feature's purpose, but I also found it to happen even if the knob was turned slowly. I agree 1:1 all the time would be preferable._

 

What were your impressions when you heard it?


----------



## The Monkey

Well, the major caveat of course is that it was under meet conditions, but I thought it was middle of the road among the amps there. I also was listening to the D7000, which is not my favorite can to begin with. Overall, I didn't hear what most have been raving about. But, again, meet conditions make these impressions preliminary at best.

 It looked much better in person than I had expected and the build quality was fine. It got hot, but no more so than similarly running hot amps. My HR Desktop Balanced ran just as hot. As noted above, I am not a fan of the volume control.

 I'm certainly in no position to call this amp overhyped or anything like that. I just didn't hear the stellar performance that others have described. Under better conditions, who knows? Plenty of ears love it, so it could just be a matter of taste.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *The Monkey* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well, the major caveat of course is that it was under meet conditions, but I thought it was middle of the road among the amps there. I also was listening to the D7000, which is not my favorite can to begin with. Overall, I didn't hear what most have been raving about. But, again, meet conditions make these impressions preliminary at best.

 It looked much better in person than I had expected and the build quality was fine. It got hot, but no more so than similarly running hot amps. My HR Desktop Balanced ran just as hot. As noted above, I am not a fan of the volume control.

 I'm certainly in no position to call this amp overhyped or anything like that. I just didn't hear the stellar performance that others have described. Under better conditions, who knows? Plenty of ears love it, so it could just be a matter of taste._

 

Thanx! Speaks volumes.


----------



## haloxt

I may be to blame for the slow volume change, before the phoenix came out I asked Kingwa about whether he could make it so it takes a longer time to change volume so no one tries to blow my ears out. I think the way it is is smart though and I am very happy with it even if it occasionally skips one volume # if I turn too fast or less commonly while turning slowly. It takes just 5 seconds to change 10-15 volume for me and I get the exact # I want 80% of the time without any slow clicks or overshooting, but if it really takes 180 degree turn to get a click like for les, I would prefer 1:1. I only have perhaps 400 clicks total though, don't really feel like twirling the knob for 15 minutes to see if it gets worse hehe.

 Have you tried doing reset on the phoenix? Maybe that'll fix the volume.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I may be to blame for the slow volume change, before the phoenix came out I asked Kingwa about whether he could make it so it takes a longer time to change volume so no one tries to blow my ears out. I think the way it is is smart though and I am very happy with it even if it occasionally skips one volume # if I turn too fast or less commonly while turning slowly. It takes just 5 seconds to change 10-15 volume for me and I get the exact # I want 80% of the time without any slow clicks or overshooting, but if it really takes 180 degree turn to get a click like for les, I would prefer 1:1. I only have perhaps 400 clicks total though, don't really feel like twirling the knob for 15 minutes to see if it gets worse hehe.

 Have you tried doing reset on the phoenix? Maybe that'll fix the volume._

 

So it was you!

 What are you referring to here, a reset? 

 It is pretty variable. I rarely use the remote. It is always perfect in how it works.


----------



## haloxt

I thought there was a option to reset everything. Well there's an option to turn volume memory on and off, I guess that could possibly reset things.

  Quote:


 2. Choose volume memory:
 Step A: Push on the "Debug" switch.
 Step B: Turn the selector knob; let the display show as below pix.
 Step C: Turn the volume knob; choose display "ON" or "OF" on left.
 Step D: Push off the "Debug" switch. 
 

Have you tried asking Kingwa about it?


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I thought there was a option to reset everything. Well there's an option to turn volume memory on and off, I guess that could possibly reset things.



 Have you tried asking Kingwa about it?_

 

I have something else to query KW with, so I'm waiting to do it all in one conversation. Hopefully tonight.

 I also tried turning it very slowly the other day when I was fooling with it. 
 Doesn't really change it's behavior. If you guys are sitting around not doing much I would like to here your results of a little test.

 1) Start at zero
 2) Turn till you get to 1, this is the start point
 3) Turn detents till you get to 2, count the clicks
 4) Turn till you get to 3 count the clicks, continue to about 30 or so if you have the time

 I'd like to know the intervals, and if they are constant. Like if you start over at zero, are the increments the same, I suspect they are not. But it does seem that some areas of the range are similiar, like when I get around 16 and 19, there is a huge LAG. This may be because I spend a lot of time in these areas. I don't know, that still doesn't make real good sesne to me with didgital controls.

 I'm mainly interested if mine is a deviation, the norm, or one in a progression of variables.

 I definitely would be interested in a 1:1 implementation and will talk to KW about this. I mean 70/99 steps are enough! You don't need any dead spots!

 Something seems flawed here. Why would the selector be doing this as well?


----------



## les_garten

OK, reference update. This seems localized to my unit. I've noticed the lack of a 1:1 relationship on the other Phoenix units I've had at hand, about 5 of them. They were pretty much the same. And mine was just like them. 

 I have one, I'm fixing presently. It works NICE! Mine is having a problem that is getting a little worse and worse. I just pinged KW about it, we'll see what the fix is. I really would like to go 1:1 as well if it is possible. I'm wondering if the encoder is failing. Mine also will go 5 or 6 clicks before the selector will change inputs as well. I can't see both encoders having problems at the same time??


----------



## Currawong

Les, I'd guess he'd have to program a chip or two without that setting and we'd have to replace them, if they are socketed.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Les, I'd guess he'd have to program a chip or two without that setting and we'd have to replace them, if they are socketed._

 

He just replied about the skipping part. He says some of the "switches" made by ALPs had "OIL" in them and need to be taken apart and cleaned. He says he doesn't use these anymore. He also said he would send me some"switches'. I'm assuming that is the rotary pot I've been calling an encoder.

 I re-asked the question about the 1:1, awaiting that answer.

 EDIT:
 Dear Les,
 Yes, the switch is contaminated with too much oil inside while ALPS made it.
 The program is two click to one volume change.
 If the switch turn very fast, the program limit the volume change not too fast.
 Kingwa


----------



## les_garten

The programmable chip is socketed by the way.


----------



## tim3320070

Mine does this but I get the volume I want without too much issue (my FBI-500 has no issue with its volume pot).
 So what is the fix? Take it out and clean it? I would need some detailed instructions on that one.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tim3320070* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Mine does this but I get the volume I want without too much issue (my FBI-500 has no issue with its volume pot).
 So what is the fix? Take it out and clean it? I would need some detailed instructions on that one._

 

Well, he says he doesn't use the same ones any more. But they look the same to me. Supposedly they can be cleaned after opening them up. Not sure how to open them yet. I exposed them somewhat last night. I'm getting ready to take them out today.

 I guess I'll shoot some PIX along the way for my Phoenix oriented friends here! If there's any interest. I happen to have a spray can of Cramolyn R-5(Priceless). I should have asked him if this would work as a cleaner like it does on a pot.

 He also does not want to reprogram the chip 1:1 because he says it is too fast. If it worked 2:1, that would be fine with me. 15:1 or 10:1 just ticks you off though.


----------



## tim3320070

Please do pics, thanks!


----------



## les_garten

So I decided yesterday to replace the encoders that were giving me fits. I promised to shoot some pix of this foxhunt, so here we go.

 First deal is to pull the knobs off. Mine were stuck on pretty good. I tried heat, not sure it helped though. Mainly just pulling and wiggling side to side. I did not glue them back on. The shafts are splined, so I didn't see the need to.

 Next, remove both side panels, and the screws on the bottom of the front panel. Here's some pix, click on the to link to a bigger more detailed pic. The big pic will look pretty good up to 300%.
 >>



 >>
 >>
 After removal of the sides and front, you are here:
 >>



 >>
 There is a small 12mm lock nut holding the encoders to the front panel, remove those with a somewhat deep socket, also unscrew the Dispaly and logic board and I also undid the power switch:
 >>



 >>



 >>



 >>
 Unsoldered and New encoders, I had a set laying around luckily:
 >>




 >>
 Close-Ups:
 >>



 >>
 Close up of solder pads:
 >>



 >>
 New Encoders soldered in and tested!
 >>



 >>
 Strain relief with super glue:
 >>



 >>
 Here you can see the tabs that need to bent back to open the Encoder. Also the inside of the contact wipers. The assembled encoder on the right, and the backplate of the open encoder on the left.
 >>



 >>
 Here's the inside of encoder showing the switchpoints and detents. Looks pretty worn already and a little oily.
 >>



 >>
 >>
 END Story -- Works just like it did when new! I'm a happy camper! I'm shopping for some better qulaity encoders and the ELNA 533 series looks like the ticket. I don't have a lot of confidence in the longevity of these considering the previous set, so I'll locate them and hang onto a spare set.


----------



## Currawong

Nice one Les. Please do link us to the Elnas when you track them down.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Nice one Les. Please do link us to the Elnas when you track them down._

 

Heh! A lot of typos in that, here ya go, this is what I was thinking.

Elma Electronic Americas English Rotary Switches, Encoders, Mechanical Incremental Encoder Type E33

 EDIT: Just found this and I may change my mind, Nice overview here:

http://www.grundsystem.de/Admin/Prod...20encoders.pdf


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Nice work Les.....looks like my use of the remote 99% of the time has some unintended pluses....

 I checked out the function of mine manually and so far it works very well (as it should considering my use of them is almost nil). If I ever need to replace the encoders for whatever reason this thread and your post Les will be a invaluable resource for that job. Thanks man 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Peete.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Nice work Les.....looks like my use of the remote 99% of the time has some unintended pluses....

 I checked out the function of mine manually and so far it works very well (as it should considering my use of them is almost nil). If I ever need to replace the encoders for whatever reason this thread and your post Les will be a invaluable resource for that job. Thanks man 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Peete._

 

Hey, Yeah I never use the remote.


----------



## The Monkey

That's a great tutorial, Les.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *The Monkey* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's a great tutorial, Les._

 

Yeah that PDF encoder lesson was a fun read.


----------



## Bob Jones

What a thread,maybe the best.Lovin my Phoenix and believe it has ended my amp searching until something revolutionary happens.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

I finally got off my duff yesterday and completed the ACSS cables for the Phoenix while today's task was to make a longer pair of DC lines using the same materials as the other pair (that ended up being too damn short...D'oh).

 The ACSS cables are a 3ft pair using Mundorf 24 awg silver/gold/Teflon in Teflon tubing for the + and - signals while a 3ft section of Legenberg copper (Mono crystal CCOFC) made up the gnd lines in both sets of cables. The DC lines used Connexx 5 Nines solid silver for the V+ V- lines (Legenberg gnd). Stock connectors used for now...I may go with some better stuff down the road if reports from Curra are favorable (mini XLR's).

 Both cables are 95% tinned copper mesh shielded and finished off with plain old black techflex.

 Pics...








 It took me most of yesterday to get the ACSS cables made up with the main problem being getting the braid just right (even spacing and number of turns equal between both for a symmetric balanced design). Talk about a PITA...the rectangular shape of the Legenberg made it somewhat difficult. Why not use another section of Mundorf for that conductor you say ? I ran short of money TBH and I felt the pure copper larger gauge would actually be better in this instance. 12ft of Mundorf ain't cheap.....the DIY HD650 balanced cable will need 32 ft of it...(sigh). Does this DIY thing ever end ? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ....cough ...nope.

 I've been listening to the cumulative effects of these mods (for the past few weeks/months) with the expectation that the cables would add a little boost compared to the rewire of the amp/dac/transport as mentioned earlier in the thread. The effects of the cables vs the stock shark wire is rather staggering I'm happy to report. I've spent a fair number of hours comparing the stock wires to the custom cables and it's very apparent the Mundorf and silver DC lines bring a very big slice of refinement to the mix. All the benefit of silver without bass thinning , upper mid glare or the slight brittle nature that sometimes silver is guilty of adding to piano and massed strings. I'm getting no discernible drawbacks that I can hear. I've been going through one disc after another (on the big rig) and it's nothing but pure heaven to these ears.

 This mod is nearly complete with the headamp wiring to the jacks left to complete (I have 18 awg Mundorf for that) so any impressions with my trusty HD650's will have to wait until that task is taken care off. For now I'm going to listen to it as is but next week I'll get the last bit done so I can move on to the next project.

 Was it worth all this effort you say ? Absolutely. There is a lot or performance being masked by the stock (internal) wiring/stock cables. All of the parts (for the CD7/RE1 and Phoenix) set me back what a great .5m set of balanced cables would cost (about 300US or so). Obviously the big expense for this undertaking if you don't plan on doing it yourself would be labor but IMO I think 300US for this kind of aural gain is peanuts.

 At any rate I'll post some more detailed thoughts in a weeks time. One thing I've noticed right off...total 3D projection in all directions and absolute transparency to the source material. Every single last detail, large or small is there coming from a deep space black hole of silence. Wow. I'm happy as hell with the way this turned out. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Cheers to all (Happy NY to boot) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Peete.


----------



## lmswjm

Peete that is some good stuff! This is one mod that I'm putting on the project list for the future.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *lmswjm* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Peete that is some good stuff! This is one mod that I'm putting on the project list for the future._

 

Thanks ! 

 I look forward to your commentary/thoughts (compare notes etc) when you've completed the upgrades 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Peete.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Well I finally finished off the last of the Phoenix ( + CD7/RE1) mods that I had planned for the last couple of months.

 Replacing the head amp wiring scheme wasn't that hard but by no means is this a beginner project. You had better know what your doing (routing lines etc).

 Here's a pic of the finished job and the drawing/map of the wiring schemes (you'll note the + and - are swapped on the pcb side) I'm not sure if that is a silk screening error or the head amp outs are inverted 180 degrees out of phase. 

 Almost ready.......





 In she goes ......






 No matter though it works and works well (thank god for no mistakes 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 )

 Sounds damn good but needs burn in....I'll comment in detail once I get a few hundred hours on the new wire. It's 18 awg solid core Mundorf Silver Gold in case anyone is wondering. It's nice to get this done and move on to the Odyssey Stratos amp rebuilds !

 Peete.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well I finally finished off the last of the Phoenix ( + CD7/RE1) mods that I had planned for the last couple of months.

 Replacing the head amp wiring scheme wasn't that hard but by no means is this a beginner project. You had better know what your doing (routing lines etc).

 Here's a pic of the finished job and the drawing/map of the wiring schemes (you'll note the + and - are swapped on the pcb side) I'm not sure if that is a silk screening error or the head amp outs are inverted 180 degrees out of phase. 

 Almost ready.......





 In she goes ......






 No matter though it works and works well (thank god for no mistakes 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 )

 Sounds damn good but needs burn in....I'll comment in detail once I get a few hundred hours on the new wire. It's 18 awg solid core Mundorf Silver Gold in case anyone is wondering. It's nice to get this done and move on to the Odyssey Stratos amp rebuilds !

 Peete._

 

For some reason, he wired the SE Jack 180 degrees out of phase with the XLR. I noticed that as well. Threw me for a loop when I was first looking at it. Maybe to keep the Load down if you plug in 3 sets of Canz?


----------



## punk_guy182

That's some very interesting work Peete.
 Congrats on your findings!
 Did you recommend Kingwa to implement some better wiring like the one you have in his top of the line gear?
 Are you still considering getting the Mono blocks power amp?


----------



## Pricklely Peete

No idea Les. I'm guessing here but I bet it's a silkscreen error like the one I caught on the ACSS inputs a few pages (and weeks) back when I rewired all of the inputs. They were also flipped but I did not realize it until I powered it up for the initial listening test. The outputs for the preamp (RCA/XLR) were also unique in the fact that they had incomplete screening and had seemingly swapped phase. I bet the explanation makes perfect sense from Kingwa but my skills at dissecting a topology this deeply (and without a schematic) are woefully inadequate. 

 PG I have suggested a number of times in the last year or so that Kingwa look into upgrading his stock wiring choice but I also tempered that suggestion because of the potential impact it would or could have in pricing depending on the choices available. One aspect of customer service A-gd is happy to accommodate is the installation of the wire of your choice as long as you provide the raw materials before the build of your particular piece of gear is started. It's a good compromise I think and it gives your gear a personal touch (one of a kind ) although you may or may not recoup the cost of the wire if you should decide to sell. It should help rather than hinder I would imagine.

 The C1 masters are in the plans for this year but I need to complete the rebuild of 2 Odyssey Stratos amps first and then sell those to help finance the purchase. The shipping cost alone for a pair of C1's is substantial (around the same cost as an "A" version FUN).

 I'll be rewiring the FBI-500 integrated amp which is currently waiting (partially disassembled) on a major part to be built at A-gd, then shipped. Luckily the transformers passed all the tests so it looks as though just the L channel output board (mains caps, 12 Toshiba power transistors) bit the dust and nothing else. This amp I hope to modify into a power amp for use with the Phoenix _or_ if the preamp section is just as good as the phoenix (after it's rewired of course) I will use it instead as integrated and bump the Phoenix to the head fi rig. I need to add a set of preamp ACSS outs (to feed the C1 Masters) which should be fairly easy to do. At least it seems like it should be fairly easy to accomplish. As always I had better talk with Kingwa about the veracity of the concept.

 Peete.


----------



## haloxt

They should keep some plain copper or silver internal wiring at hand just in case people don't want SPC, lots of people seem not to like the tonality.


----------



## tim3320070

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No idea Les. I'm guessing here but I bet it's a silkscreen error like the one I caught on the ACSS inputs a few pages (and weeks) back when I rewired all of the inputs. They were also flipped but I did not realize it until I powered it up for the initial listening test. The outputs for the preamp (RCA/XLR) were also unique in the fact that they had incomplete screening and had seemingly swapped phase. I bet the explanation makes perfect sense from Kingwa but my skills at dissecting a topology this deeply (and without a schematic) are woefully inadequate. 

 PG I have suggested a number of times in the last year or so that Kingwa look into upgrading his stock wiring choice but I also tempered that suggestion because of the potential impact it would or could have in pricing depending on the choices available. One aspect of customer service A-gd is happy to accommodate is the installation of the wire of your choice as long as you provide the raw materials before the build of your particular piece of gear is started. It's a good compromise I think and it gives your gear a personal touch (one of a kind ) although you may or may not recoup the cost of the wire if you should decide to sell. It should help rather than hinder I would imagine.

 The C1 masters are in the plans for this year but I need to complete the rebuild of 2 Odyssey Stratos amps first and then sell those to help finance the purchase. The shipping cost alone for a pair of C1's is substantial (around the same cost as an "A" version FUN).

 I'll be rewiring the FBI-500 integrated amp which is currently waiting (partially disassembled) on a major part to be built at A-gd, then shipped. Luckily the transformers passed all the tests so it looks as though just the L channel output board (mains caps, 12 Toshiba power transistors) bit the dust and nothing else. This amp I hope to modify into a power amp for use with the Phoenix or if the preamp section is just as good as the phoenix (after it's rewired of course) I will use it instead as integrated and bump the Phoenix to the head fi rig. I need to add a set of preamp ACSS outs (to feed the C1 Masters) which should be fairly easy to do. At least it seems like it should be fairly easy to accomplish. As always I had better talk with Kingwa about the veracity of the concept.

 Peete._

 

The preamp is supposed to be essentially the same as the Phoenix according to Kingwa.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_They should keep some plain copper or silver internal wiring at hand just in case people don't want SPC, lots of people seem not to like the tonality._

 

Agreed.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tim3320070* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The preamp is supposed to be essentially the same as the Phoenix according to Kingwa._

 

That's good to know Tim 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Peete.


----------



## Currawong

I'm well overdue for my modding plans, mainly because I need to schedule some time when the little one isn't running around and attempting to grab things, like the power cable of the soldering iron. I have to get some internal wiring for the eXStatA as well, so I'll combine that with enough wire for a Mudorf headphone cable, Phoenix re-wire and the internal digital wiring of the Ref 3 and Ref 1. That'll probably take me most of a day at the pace I do things.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

I have a huge final mod planned for the RE1/Phoenix that I'm currently occupied with (finished planning and ordering for the Phoenix)...think entire recap of the Phoenix (both PSU / amp/preamp chassis) and the RE1. It's a massive job but I'm keen on getting tucked in. Parts should arrive by Friday for the Phoenix PSU/Amp sections. I'll post a pic of the parts in this thread before starting. 


 The Furtech BNC AG pure silver digital cable is on it's way today....YAY (for Christ's sake after ordering it 2 weeks ago) !

 Loads o crap happening at Captain Crazy Cap's byoass o rama and electrolytic emporium 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Peete.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have a huge final mod planned for the RE1/Phoenix that I'm currently occupied with (finished planning and ordering for the Phoenix)...think entire recap of the Phoenix (both PSU / amp/preamp chassis) and the RE1. It's a massive job but I'm keen on getting tucked in. Parts should arrive by Friday for the Phoenix PSU/Amp sections. I'll post a pic of the parts in this thread before starting. 


 The Furtech BNC AG pure silver digital cable is on it's way today....YAY (for Christ's sake after ordering it 2 weeks ago) !

 Loads o crap happening at Captain Crazy Cap's byoass o rama and electrolytic emporium 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Peete._

 

This is a Cry for Help.

 It looks like somebody needs an Intervention!


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This is a Cry for Help.

 It looks like somebody needs an Intervention!_

 

You could shoot me some cash if you want....

 Think of it as contributing to my ongoing therapy (the DIY kind ) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 In all seriousness the limiting factors I've identified come down to the NoVer caps after much exhaustive study and research , good as they are they aren't close to top shelf caps and they are part of the formula A-gd uses for keeping the overall cost's down. I want to see what top shelf parts can do and the cost of doing so is still peanuts comparatively speaking. 

 Peete.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You could shoot me some cash if you want....

 Think of it as contributing to my ongoing therapy (the DIY kind ) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 In all seriousness the limiting factors I've identified come down to the NoVer caps after much exhaustive study and research , good as they are they aren't close to top shelf caps and they are part of the formula A-gd uses for keeping the overall cost's down. I want to see what top shelf parts can do and the cost of doing so is still peanuts comparatively speaking. 

 I'm sure your having loads of fun at my expense Les which seems to be a character flaw of yours that rears it's ugly head from time to time but if you have any future commentary along these lines I'd appreciate it if you PM'd me directly rather than showing little tact of similar nature in the future.

 Peete._

 

Man, it was just a Joke.

 Sorry I kidded around with you...


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Man, it was just a Joke.

 Sorry I kidded around with you..._

 

Ok Les...cool, my apologies for reading you wrong. But where was the smiley, without it it's really hard to discern intent ? I'm dumb enough that I need a smiley (or big grin)...

 Peete.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ok Les...cool, my apologies for reading you wrong. But where was the smiley, without it it's really hard to discern intent ? I'm dumb enough that I need a smiley (or big grin)...

 Peete._


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Well boys and girls the last piece of the Phoenix mod puzzle is getting shipped Wed (from PCX) so I should be starting work on the amp and psu sections this coming weekend. I think it'll take around 3 days to complete since the parts total is roughly 85-90 pieces. It's a huge mod but not all that difficult in complexity.

 I'll post a pic of the parts being used before I start to give you guys a look at the parts line up 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




*EDIT:* Here are the pics of the parts. One set of caps (6 x Mundorf M'Lytic 4700uf 40V) is still in transit but I should have them shortly, hopefully before the coming weekend. I haven't decided as of yet which mains filter caps I will use..... the 6 Mundorf or the 6 Nichicon KG Gold Tunes (6800uf 35V).

 I've also decided to split the mod into 2 parts. Part 1 the PSU chassis, Part 2 the amp/preamp/head amp chassis. I figure I should be able to discern any positive changes (if there are any) by evaluating the PSU mods with the current stock/known sound signature of the amp/preamp section. That means postponing part 2 until the PSU has settled in. That just fine since I have the FBI-500 L channel output power module on the way now that it's been built and shipped, so in the meantime, between parts 1 and 2 of the Phoenix MAX SE mod I have some work to do on that beast of an integrated amp 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




















 This should be a pile of fun.

 I want to make clear that the _stock amp is a terrific performer_ and in no way am I saying that all of the mods I'm tackling, necessary for an enjoyable experience. These mods are to explore the absolute outer edge of refinement and performance while working within a reasonable budget.

 Peete.


----------



## lmswjm

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well boys and girls the last piece of the Phoenix mod puzzle is getting shipped Wed (from PCX) so I should be starting work on the amp and psu sections this coming weekend. I think it'll take around 3 days to complete since the parts total is roughly 85-90 pieces. It's a huge mod but not all that difficult in complexity.

 I'll post a pic of the parts being used before I start to give you guys a look at the parts line up 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 This should be a pile of fun.

 I want to make clear that the stock amp is a terrific performer and in no way am I saying that all of the mods I'm tackling, necessary for an enjoyable experience. These mods are to explore the absolute outer edge of refinement and performance while working within a reasonable budget.

 Peete._

 

Best of luck, I'll be on the sidelines for now........


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Just finished Part 1, the PSU overhaul. I have the Phoenix back up and running with no issues (I triple checked all the of the work just to make sure).

 Went with the big Nichicon 6800uf 35V KG Gold Tunes...saving the Mundorf Caps for the RE1 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I have pics but I'll post those later .....

*Edit* Here are the pics ....

*Before*









*After*










 Dis (sic) assembly notes: This is one PITA unit to get that pcb out of but it's not nearly as complicated as the head section will be (sigh). Still I like a challenge and such things never deter me from my mad pursuits of greater performance. Anyway what I did was make note of the trafo secondaries and which pads they were assigned to, marked the wiring. To get at that wiring requires you unbolt all the transistors first, unsolder the DC leads from the jacks on the back panel, unbolt the data ports,unbolt the 2 pcb standoffs, then push the pcb forward enough to clear the left hand debug switch, once clear of that flip the board over towards the trafos and unsolder all the secondary leads. You then have the pcb free from the chassis. The rest is pretty easy if you have the right tools. Total time including a few short breaks about 4.5 hours which also included triple checking polarity of the new caps and of course the secondary trafo wiring and the DC jack wiring.

 The mod entails pulling all 6 mains filter caps and the 12 smaller caps on the board. The stock filtering capacity is pretty hefty for a preamp/head amp but I feel the unit could use some longer legs or more stamina not to mention better ESR rated caps, whether this mod accomplishes that goal remains to be seen but initial listening tests are positive. Ok stock capacity is 12 x 1500uf, 6 x 3300uf = 37,800uf . The mod consists of 12 x 2200uf, 6 x 6800uf (plus 6 PIO bypass caps for the large KG's) = 67,200 uf. Almost doubling the stock capacity.

*PG*, all of the mods (not including this one)) I've performed thus far have been very positive for the Phoenix and the RE1/CD7. This latest venture is likely the one that will yield the least in terms of a big jump. This will likely be a small refinement although I could be wrong about that. I need to let these new caps settle in before making any determinations. _One thing I have noticed_ is slight increase in dynamic heft and speed. Some further clarity in the bass region although that could be my imagination. At any rate my Phoenix is easily an order of magnitude above the stock unit (when you add up all the mods thus far, the cables etc). It would be interesting to compare a stock unit with mine side by side in a top flight 2 channel system. Hopefully the head amp mod will lift the performance of that section to that of the preamp section...if it does I'll be one happy camper. The second Part of this mod I'll get cracking on in a couple of weeks...the FBI-500 rebuild and mod (going to give it preamp outs and a ACSS pass through among other things) is on deck now (should have the L channel output stage next week).

 Peete.


----------



## punk_guy182

Keep 'em coming Peete! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'd like to know how your mods sound like. Any serious gains in terms of SQ?


----------



## FauDrei

...and I thought my DIY ventures will end with A-GD's gear... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Would Panasonic FM's be any good in PSU section?


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *FauDrei* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_...and I thought my DIY ventures will end with A-GD's gear... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Would Panasonic FM's be any good in PSU section?_

 

Probably be alright to use but I can't say how'd they stack up against the NoVers or the KG's. I know the FM's are a well respected PSU cap and I have used them before but for the Phoenix I felt average (FM are average) wasn't nearly good enough. Great mains filter caps cost (sometimes) a lot of dough and most of the time a pretty fair chunk of change...unfortunately there is no getting around that. That being said KG Gold Tunes are nowhere the crazy money that some manufacturers are asking for something comparable. The Type II KG's is what I settled...the super throughs are just way too much money (for me at least).

 I hear you about DIY ventures....do they ever really end ? That wouldn't be much fun, however....I think I've found the key to the lighter bass and dynamic drive the stock Phoenix is knocked for vs the B22. This PSU mod brings out the beast in this amp. I spent most of last evening wiping my jaw and drool from the carpet after listening (on the main system) to every current CD I have in my collection that has incredible bass and extremely complex dynamics ....the difference in quantity and stamina...this unit simply does not run out of steam nor does it have any overhang, bloat, smearing etc...the bottom end extension/power and control as well as it's all important transient speed had me jumping from my chair (a little one mind you, I ain't no spring chicken anymore)...had me scared a couple of times even though I knew it was coming, which is always a good sign. 

 Anyway I'm not sure how much of this has to do with more filtering capacity vs quality/spec of cap...my guess is a little of both. I would urge Kingwa to bump the uf capacity (on a tester unit in house with his ref system) to what I am using and see if his results are similar to mine.

 Peete.


----------



## haloxt

I've been thinking about getting a power conditioner that has reserve current for speaker setup, is the phoenix dependent on power draw like a power amp and might benefit from this kind of power conditioner? I couldn't really tell if my basic $200 power conditioner without capacitor bank improved/degraded the phoenix, but if it does eat power like a power amp maybe I'll use the power conditioner for my headphone setup too.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've been thinking about getting a power conditioner that has reserve current for speaker setup, is the phoenix dependent on power draw like a power amp and might benefit from this kind of power conditioner? I couldn't really tell if my basic $200 power conditioner without capacitor bank improved/degraded the phoenix, but if it does eat power like a power amp maybe I'll use the power conditioner for my headphone setup too._

 

Hard to say without actually giving it a try. I know that doesn't help you out much. I found the difference between plugging the Phoenix into a LC and directly in the wall socket minimal (to my ears). My AC lines in the house are pretty clean anyway so YMMV.

 Peete.


----------



## DoYouKnowJim?

I'm thinking of picking one of these up to move my work rig to balanced as well


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DoYouKnowJim?* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm thinking of picking one of these up to move my work rig to balanced as well 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

That will make a really nice work rig, you lucky boy!


----------



## punk_guy182

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ Anyway I'm not sure how much of this has to do with more filtering capacity vs quality/spec of cap...my guess is a little of both. I would urge Kingwa to bump the uf capacity (on a tester unit in house with his ref system) to what I am using and see if his results are similar to mine.

 Peete._

 

Yeah if that simple mod could bring more bass punch and dynamics then I'm all for it.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

*Update to the original evaluation of the Phoenix PSU mod/upgrade (Part 1 or Phase 1).*

 The changes I talked out about in post #2655 are confirmed after some lengthy listening and further burn in. I think the caps may have settled in completely since no further changes have been observed in the past 24 hours. The PIO bypass caps I used on the 6800uf 35V KG's already had multiple K hours on them so that aspect I did not have to take into account.

 The difference from stock actually ended up being far larger (easily noticeable) than I originally thought it might or would be. It's nice to be proven wrong in this particular case.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 The head amp exhibits these changes readily although on a slightly smaller scale (I imagine Phase 2 of the upgrade will improve things further but the degree of which is a total unknown until completed and tested thoroughly).

 The cost of Part 1 or Phase 1 of this upgrade makes it very attractive (roughly speaking about 75USD) with the skill level needed to perform this upgrade classified as being basic IMO. Phase 2 is even cheaper by about 60% since the largest expenditure of both phases are the 6800uf KG filter caps. If you are not mechanically inclined (dis-assembly is harder than the actual cap swapping) or all thumbs with a soldering iron I'd get someone experienced to do it. 

 Part 2 or Phase 2 will commence once I have the FBI-500 Integrated amp rebuilt and setup (the L channel power stage module arrived yesterday). If all goes smoothly with the FBI rebuild, Phase 2 of the Phoenix project could be done in less than 2 weeks. Fingers crossed the FBI rebuild goes off without a hitch 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Peete.


----------



## punk_guy182

That's a very interesting plan Peete! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 For those intereted in trying out the Phoenix and the Reference One DAC, I'll be wih my gear at the Montreal SSI event tomorow and Sunday at the Head-Fi booth.

http://www.salonsonimage.com/en/visitors/index.html

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f24/20...i-meet-469209/


----------



## punk_guy182

*Double post* Sorry...


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *punk_guy182* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's a very interesting plan Peete! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 For those intereted in trying out the Phoenix and the Reference One DAC, I'll be wih my gear at the Montreal SSI event tomorow and Sunday at the Head-Fi booth._

 

Cool PG, have yourself a great time this weekend ! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Peete.


----------



## punk_guy182

I haven't forgotten you Peete.
 I'll send you the Oyaide DB-510 after the show.


----------



## FauDrei

S*rew you Peete... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The bug you unleashed infected me. When you were doing cables, I was like "Bah, let the kid play"... But caps... I know how good caps can turn mediocre amp to a very good one (my X-Can experience)... and Phoenix IS excellent amp to begin with, but no... your blasphemy had to prove that Novers are limiting factor... I hate you (a little).

 Where you usually get your caps? I'm looking for Mundorf M-lytics and Elna RFS for my Roc...

 You were (are) right - those ventures never ever end.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *punk_guy182* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I haven't forgotten you Peete.
 I'll send you the Oyaide DB-510 after the show. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

No rush, have fun 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *FauDrei* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_S*rew you Peete... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The bug you unleashed infected me. When you were doing cables, I was like "Bah, let the kid play"... But caps... I know how good caps can turn mediocre amp to a very good one (my X-Can experience)... and Phoenix IS excellent amp to begin with, but no... your blasphemy had to prove that Novers are limiting factor... I hate you (a little).

 Where you usually get your caps? I'm looking for Mundorf M-lytics and Elna RFS for my Roc...

 You were (are) right - those ventures never ever end. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Hehe....sorry to contribute to your delinquency FD but the DIY ACSS cables made a big difference, as big as any of the upgrades performed thus far with the possible exception of the solid silver DC lines I made. I have no idea if they made any difference at all but they were cheap to make and I thought I'm going this far with everything else it makes little sense to not make up a set of DC lines.

 The NoVer caps are good quality ...it's just that the KG's and Mundorf are better but how much better vs the increase in filtering capacity is an unknown. Like I said before it's likely a mix of both.

 I get all of my parts from Head Fi sponsor (which happens to be an_ in country_ local supplier, which is major plus), PartsconneXion.com or PCX.

 Peete.


 PS : It's been a _very_ long time since anyone referred to me as kid


----------



## FauDrei

...you're welcome.

 I'm sure you know I was referring to the inner kid. The one which _She Who Must Be Obeyed_ always tries to get rid of.


----------



## starfi3ld

wow! I'm really looking at getting a phoenix now with the mods etc. Hi pete, have you compared your modded phoenix to the RSA Apache? 

 How does the phoenix sound as a pre-amp with all the mods too? I would like it to replace my pre-amp in my hi-fi setup if it sounds good enough. 

 Do you think Kingwa will be will to install these caps if you are willing to provide them?


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Hi star,

 No I haven't had the pleasure of comparing the RSA Apache but I do have a number of preamps on hand at home (a totally modified all tube MC-7R MeiXing, a modified/upgraded Adcom GFP-750, A mid level Parasound and another SS monitor series NAD from the 80's and few others I've bought and sold over the years). None of those hold a candle (modified or not) to the Phoenix (even in stock trim) when used as 2 channel speaker system preamp. I think the Phoenix makes for a better preamp than head amp which reflects it's heritage (a scaled down C39/C3SE) but the Phase 2 mod may or may not affect that current view (the head amp section). 

 I think you could safely pit the stock unit against anything under 5K and the modified unit against anything over 5K and it wouldn't embarrass itself. Is it the last word ? No, of course not (is any amp ?) but for a SS design it's mighty un- SS like in it's presentation without getting syrupy, bloated and slow. In fact it's so transparent, speedy , controlled and imparts so little on the source material it's reminds me more of the Adcom GFP-750 in passive mode except 10X better. It's very analog like yet musical and accurate with all the detail you'd ever want. I can listen for hours on end without a hint of fatigue, even with bad recordings it does a good job of making them a little more listenable (but no amp is a miracle worker for the truly awful recordings). Do I prefer better recorded material 99% of the time ? Of course. I wish all my source material was well recorded......bloody pipe dream that is though....
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The ACSS pathway when used with the CD7/RE1 redbook source is a terrific, riveting combination. Once I have my resurrection project FBI-500 Integrated up and running I'll be able to test that ACSS pathway with an A-gd power amp on the other end...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 All of this is IMO of course. YMMV as will others mileage but the base unit's voicing is Class A category without a doubt.

 I'd email Kingwa about the caps. He will use the cable you select (or buy from elsewhere as long as you ship it to him before the build starts). I would imagine the caps would be a fairly easy inclusion to that list of deviations from stock. It's best to talk directly with him about such things though.

 Peete.


----------



## haloxt

Any ideas on how FBI-500's preamp is vs. phoenix as preamp? I've been considering selling the phoenix and getting the FBI-500 and getting audio-gd's SP-5 speakers, but sadly I just learned from Kingwa the speakers he sells to the Chinese market can't be shipped internationally since carriers don't do packages with magnets, something about messing with their planes. If FBI-500 is not that far behind phoenix preamp, maybe someone can think of a way to bypass the shipping issue? Maybe I purchase the drivers and buy the rest of the speakers from Kingwa?


----------



## t/sound

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*Update to the original evaluation of the Phoenix PSU mod/upgrade (Part 1 or Phase 1).*

 The changes I talked out about in post #2655 are confirmed after some lengthy listening and further burn in. I think the caps may have settled in completely since no further changes have been observed in the past 24 hours. The PIO bypass caps I used on the 6800uf 35V KG's already had multiple K hours on them so that aspect I did not have to take into account.

 The difference from stock actually ended up being far larger (easily noticeable) than I originally thought it might or would be. It's nice to be proven wrong in this particular case.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The head amp exhibits these changes readily although on a slightly smaller scale (I imagine Phase 2 of the upgrade will improve things further but the degree of which is a total unknown until completed and tested thoroughly).

 The cost of Part 1 or Phase 1 of this upgrade makes it very attractive (roughly speaking about 75USD) with the skill level needed to perform this upgrade classified as being basic IMO. Phase 2 is even cheaper by about 60% since the largest expenditure of both phases are the 6800uf KG filter caps. If you are not mechanically inclined (dis-assembly is harder than the actual cap swapping) or all thumbs with a soldering iron I'd get someone experienced to do it. 

 Part 2 or Phase 2 will commence once I have the FBI-500 Integrated amp rebuilt and setup (the L channel power stage module arrived yesterday). If all goes smoothly with the FBI rebuild, Phase 2 of the Phoenix project could be done in less than 2 weeks. Fingers crossed the FBI rebuild goes off without a hitch 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Peete._

 

Peete, YMMD.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Any ideas on how FBI-500's preamp is vs. phoenix as preamp? I've been considering selling the phoenix and getting the FBI-500 and getting audio-gd's SP-5 speakers, but sadly I just learned from Kingwa the speakers he sells to the Chinese market can't be shipped internationally since carriers don't do packages with magnets, something about messing with their planes. If FBI-500 is not that far behind phoenix preamp, maybe someone can think of a way to bypass the shipping issue? Maybe I purchase the drivers and buy the rest of the speakers from Kingwa?_

 

I'm unsure how it measures up. Couldn't the speakers be shipped via container ship ? It'll take a lot longer but it might be the solution you are looking for.

 Peete.


----------



## Zorlac

Guys...I need help. My Phoenix quit working last night!!! =(...

 I dont even use it that often. When I do, it is maybe an hour at a time and I keep it turned OFF when not in use. I hadnt used it in about 3 days and decided to listen to some music last night. Turned it ON and everything seemed fine (lights and display came ON), but there was no sound. My DAC shows that it is locking on to the SPDIF optical signal, but the Phoenix is not outputting sound to my headphones. After a few hours of pulling my hair out, I gave up.

 This morning, I decided to try again. This time the LEFT headphone speaker had sound. I fiddled around with the Preamp button and turned the Phoenix ON/OFF a few times and then both LEFT/RIGHT headphone speakers worked. Everything worked great for about 10 mins. and then all sound cut out again. Argh!!!

 I decided to step away for lunch and came back about 30 mins later and it worked again for about 10 mins. and then sound died.

 Any ideas what to do??? I really dont want to have to send this back to Kingwa... =/


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Zorlac* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Guys...I need help. My Phoenix quit working last night!!! =(...

 I dont even use it that often. When I do, it is maybe an hour at a time and I keep it turned OFF when not in use. I hadnt used it in about 3 days and decided to listen to some music last night. Turned it ON and everything seemed fine (lights and display came ON), but there was no sound. My DAC shows that it is locking on to the SPDIF optical signal, but the Phoenix is not outputting sound to my headphones. After a few hours of pulling my hair out, I gave up.

 This morning, I decided to try again. This time the LEFT headphone speaker had sound. I fiddled around with the Preamp button and turned the Phoenix ON/OFF a few times and then both LEFT/RIGHT headphone speakers worked. Everything worked great for about 10 mins. and then all sound cut out again. Argh!!!

 I decided to step away for lunch and came back about 30 mins later and it worked again for about 10 mins. and then sound died.

 Any ideas what to do??? I really dont want to have to send this back to Kingwa... =/





_

 

When it has the problem, does the preamp light go on and off when you hit the preamp button, or does it stat lit?

 Also, it won't work more than 10 minutes straight?

 Take a known "perfect" source like a CD player and see how it does with it. That is, try to simplify your troubleshooting and change the source for a known good one.


----------



## Zorlac

The preamp light is always on no matter what. Is that normal? (I never noticed before)

 Since my DAC is showing a locked signal...doesnt that mean my source is working? Even when the sound stops working, the DAC still shows a locked signal.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Zorlac* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The preamp light is always on no matter what. Is that normal? (I never noticed before)

 Since my DAC is showing a locked signal...doesnt that mean my source is working? Even when the sound stops working, the DAC still shows a locked signal._

 

If the preamp light is staying on all the time, that's a problem. How long have you had the Phoenix? There were some bad caps that caused this to happen in the protection circuit.

 When troubleshooting, it doesn't hurt to switch things as far as sources and try to get your system as simple as possible. I use an iPod for this.

 SPDIF lock wouldn't necessarily prove or disprove anything. But a simple source helps greatly. But if the preamp light stays lit, that's a problem.


----------



## Zorlac

Okay...its working now and the Preamp light is OFF. I did notice when the audio quits that the Preamp light is ON.

 I bet in another 10 or 15mins the same problem will happen. I will post back when it quits.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Zorlac* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Okay...its working now and the Preamp light is OFF. I did notice when the audio quits that the Preamp light is ON.

 I bet in another 10 or 15mins the same problem will happen. I will post back when it quits._

 

If it is what I have seen, the preamp light will stay on solid, no matter the switch position, when you have the problem. Your caps are failing it seems.

 You didn't say, how old is the Phoenix?


----------



## Currawong

It's the caps in the relay for the pre-amp. It's a half-hour to an hour for someone to replace them (mainly because of the amount of things that have to be removed to access the underside of the board). Kingwa reckons 10 people have a Phoenix with these caps in them IIRC. I recently replaced the ones in mine and in one belonging to another Japanese Head-fier.


----------



## Zorlac

I bought mine in June 2009. I was on the original waiting list.

 I emailed Kingwa and he seems to know the exact problem:

  Quote:


 Dear Mike,
 After you said the preamp LED, I know the problems.
 This is the protect active.
 The reason is either blow :
 the DC offset let protect active, maybe input DC level of signal is higher, or the protect zero.
 Or the data cable had bad connect.
 This is small problems. If you reconnect the data cable can fix is ok.
 If can fix, my friend can fix it within one days.
 Kingwa 
 

I put the data cable in the other output port on the back of the amp and it has been working ever since (almost 4 hours) even though I have seen the preamp light go ON/OFF once during that time (audio kept playing).

 What do you guys recommend I should do?


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Zorlac* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I bought mine in June 2009. I was on the original waiting list.

 I emailed Kingwa and he seems to know the exact problem:



 I put the data cable in the other output port on the back of the amp and it has been working ever since (almost 4 hours) even though I have seen the preamp light go ON/OFF once during that time (audio kept playing).

 What do you guys recommend I should do?_

 



 If you are in the orig. 10, then the caps will need to be replaced at some point, they'll most likely fail. The data cable thing has me a little confused. It will be interesting to see how it shakes out. KW had told me that the orig 10 had the pre-maturely failing caps. For some reason mine have not failed? Yet...


----------



## haloxt

I got one of the early phoenixes and I think I've seen the preamp light act up a few times before, which was fixed by restarting. I leave it on 24/7 so maybe I'll see the problem more if I keep turning it on and off.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I got one of the early phoenixes and I think I've seen the preamp light act up a few times before, which was fixed by restarting. I leave it on 24/7 so maybe I'll see the problem more if I keep turning it on and off._

 


 Hard to say. Some failed pretty fast, and some like mine are still going. But I feel a rework is in my future at some point. Not sure if the on/off surges and thermal cycling have any thing to do with it. I've seen one fail that was on all the time and one that was an on/off patterned box.


----------



## Yikes

Kingwa admits that there were a bunch of bad caps used. Whether that means that they were defective or inappropriately spec'd he should pay to replace them regardless of warranty status.

 When a Auto maker has a recall it doesn't only apply to those still within their warranty, it applies to everyone effected. The same should apply here.

 In-fact since he knows that these caps are an issue he should take a proactive policy and contact those effected and offer to have the caps replaced. What purpose is served by waiting for them to fail? Unless he's hoping that they'll last until after the warranty expires.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yikes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Kingwa admits that there were a bunch of bad caps used. Whether that means that they were defective or inappropriately spec'd he should pay to replace them regardless of warranty status.

 When a Auto maker has a recall it doesn't only apply to those still within their warranty, it applies to everyone effected. The same should apply here.

 In-fact since he knows that these caps are an issue he should take a proactive policy and contact those effected and offer to have the caps replaced. What purpose is served by waiting for them to fail? Unless he's hoping that they'll last until after the warranty expires._

 

I don't think they were under spec'd. I just think the caps were bad.


----------



## haloxt

Or he's hoping some of the 10 affected phoenixes don't ever fail 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.

 After some more thought, I think it's unlikely my phoenix is one of the first 10 or having cap problems, I just have occasional power surges/brown outs that mute sound on amp or dac.


----------



## Currawong

If Zorlac is still having problems, he should contact Kingwa about it. If his Phoenix is faulty, I'm sure Kingwa will take care of it as it hasn't even been a year since he bought it. From discussions I've had with other owners, all but 2 or 3 of the first 10 seem to have been repaired.


----------



## Zorlac

Kingwa told me to just keep trying to switch the data output cable ports if it happens again. If that doesnt fix the issue, then he said there is someone in the USA that will fix it and he will pay for shipping.

 I was actually starting to consider selling this thing since it is so big and massive. I have been using my Mac laptop a lot lately and I want a smaller portable amp now instead so I am not locked up in my basement all the time LOL. You think anyone would still buy it knowing that some of the caps may or may not need to be replaced in the future? I realize I will lose more money on the thing with this disclosure, but I honestly am not using it much and its kind of a waste (cant believe I am saying this LOL..., but my wife would be proud hehehe).

 Anyways..thanks everyone for the input. Not sure what I would do without my fellow Headfiers!


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Zorlac* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Kingwa told me to just keep trying to switch the data output cable ports if it happens again. If that doesnt fix the issue, then he said there is someone in the USA that will fix it and he will pay for shipping.

 I was actually starting to consider selling this thing since it is so big and massive. I have been using my Mac laptop a lot lately and I want a smaller portable amp now instead so I am not locked up in my basement all the time LOL. You think anyone would still buy it knowing that some of the caps may or may not need to be replaced in the future? I realize I will lose more money on the thing with this disclosure, but I honestly am not using it much and its kind of a waste (cant believe I am saying this LOL..., but my wife would be proud hehehe).

 Anyways..thanks everyone for the input. Not sure what I would do without my fellow Headfiers!_

 

Smart thing, get it fixed then sell it. 

 You'll be sorry you sold it though...


----------



## Zorlac

Yeah you are right...maybe I will just keep it.


----------



## pompon

I just sent my paypal for my Phoenix! 

 BTW, I have a B22 balanced in construction (almost finish). 
 But preliminary test (2 boards without Sigma22) was that thing was too detailled/bright. Was using Cardas Quad solder ... is-it possible that why it's so bright or 30 hrs burn-in is not enough or the bench supply is not good for B22 ?

 It's why I ordered the phoenix ... to have something ready when I will probably have to fine tuned the B22 to have something I like.

 I will be able to put them side to side ... and it's not a bad thing to have the opportunity to keep the best I like.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pompon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just sent my paypal for my Phoenix! 

 BTW, I have a B22 balanced in construction (almost finish). 
 But preliminary test (2 boards without Sigma22) was that thing was too detailled/bright. Was using Cardas Quad solder ... is-it possible that why it's so bright or 30 hrs burn-in is not enough or the bench supply is not good for B22 ?

 It's why I ordered the phoenix ... to have something ready when I will probably have to fine tuned the B22 to have something I like.

 I will be able to put them side to side ... and it's not a bad thing to have the opportunity to keep the best I like._

 

That will be a good comparison to hear your impressions from. I would think a bench PSU may not be ideal in the clean and quiet dept.


----------



## XLR1

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pompon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just sent my paypal for my Phoenix! 

 BTW, I have a B22 balanced in construction (almost finish). 
 But preliminary test (2 boards without Sigma22) was that thing was too detailled/bright. Was using Cardas Quad solder ... is-it possible that why it's so bright or 30 hrs burn-in is not enough or the bench supply is not good for B22 ?_

 

Sorry if a little off topic, but is there no adjustment that you can make to warm the sound of the B22?


----------



## XLR1

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Zorlac* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I was actually starting to consider selling this thing since it is so big and massive. I have been using my Mac laptop a lot lately and I want a smaller portable amp now instead so I am not locked up in my basement all the time LOL. You think anyone would still buy it knowing that some of the caps may or may not need to be replaced in the future? I realize I will lose more money on the thing with this disclosure, but I honestly am not using it much and its kind of a waste (cant believe I am saying this LOL..., but my wife would be proud hehehe)._

 

Fix it first under warranty, then sell here on HeadFi. I do not want my new used Phoenix to need any work.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Like Les and Curra I have one of the early production units that used the "bad" caps in the head amp section. So far I've been lucky having had no issues with the preamp section/switch however I do plan on replacing these along with the rest of the stock caps in the amp chassis this week (Phase 2 of Max mod).

 Peete.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Like Les and Curra I have one of the early production units that used the "bad" caps in the head amp section. So far I've been lucky having had no issues with the preamp section/switch however I do plan on replacing these along with the rest of the stock caps in the amp chassis this week (Phase 2 of Max mod).

 Peete._

 

Franken-Phoenix!


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Franken-Phoenix!_

 

Exactly !!! 

 Peete.


----------



## chesebert

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pompon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just sent my paypal for my Phoenix! 

 BTW, I have a B22 balanced in construction (almost finish). 
 But preliminary test (2 boards without Sigma22) was that thing was too detailled/bright. Was using Cardas Quad solder ... is-it possible that why it's so bright or 30 hrs burn-in is not enough or the bench supply is not good for B22 ?

 It's why I ordered the phoenix ... to have something ready when I will probably have to fine tuned the B22 to have something I like.

 I will be able to put them side to side ... and it's not a bad thing to have the opportunity to keep the best I like._

 

B22 is liquid, powerful, organic, dynamic, and transparent. I guess all B22 are not created equal.


----------



## Zorlac

My Phoenix quit working again. Preamp light stuck ON.

 I am sending it to Kingwa's USA friend for repairs next week. One of you might get lucky because I now think I may sell it once repaired.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Zorlac* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My Phoenix quit working again. Preamp light stuck ON.

 I am sending it to Kingwa's USA friend for repairs next week. One of you might get lucky because I now think I may sell it once repaired. _

 


 Caps don't usually repair themselves, so a repair was in the cards here.

 There aren't too many options for replacement IMO, what are you replacing it with? B22 or EHHA? Those would be my only options unless you went the STAX route. Or do you just want something "New"?


----------



## Zorlac

Its a downgrade, but I think im going to try out a VC-01i. It is small, simple and balanced. At least it will be easier to move around heh. I am not too concerned about the downgrade. I feel my DAC is more important and I love the one I have now, so wont be parting with that anytime soon.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Zorlac* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Its a downgrade, but I think im going to try out a VC-01i. It is small, simple and balanced. At least it will be easier to move around heh. I am not too concerned about the downgrade. I feel my DAC is more important and I love the one I have now, so wont be parting with that anytime soon._

 

Good Deal! I tried to find pix of the inside of that box, but couldn't find any.


----------



## SoupRKnowva

hey Peete, would you be willing to write down a list of quantities and sizes for all the new capacitors you bought to replace the ones in the Phoenix? just to use as a parts list for someone not quite a technically inclined as yourself? And i know you used larger sizes in the PSU section for more filtering, but are you going to keep the sizes the same in the amp section of the unit? Also i was curious about gauges and lengths of wire that you used in the rewire of the whole thing as well. or do you think that it would be ok to use all one gauge, like 24 or 26 awg? im fairly partial to the SCSCag wire that cryparts has which only comes in those 2 sizes, which is around 10 bucks a foot. Do you think i should just stick with the mundorf like you used?

 Im just curious because i think that ive finally decided that i want one of these beasts, and i like what you've done with your mods, so im going to contact Kingwa about me sending all the parts and just having it built with the new caps and wire in it already 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 and since i dont have one i cant go look for myself. also need to discuss having a lower gain put in for my jh-13's 

 thanks ahead of time, i dont think im the only one in the thread that appreciates what you've done.


----------



## lmswjm

X2


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *SoupRKnowva* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_hey Peete, would you be willing to write down a list of quantities and sizes for all the new capacitors you bought to replace the ones in the Phoenix? just to use as a parts list for someone not quite a technically inclined as yourself? And i know you used larger sizes in the PSU section for more filtering, but are you going to keep the sizes the same in the amp section of the unit? Also i was curious about gauges and lengths of wire that you used in the rewire of the whole thing as well. or do you think that it would be ok to use all one gauge, like 24 or 26 awg? im fairly partial to the SCSCag wire that cryparts has which only comes in those 2 sizes, which is around 10 bucks a foot. Do you think i should just stick with the mundorf like you used?

 Im just curious because i think that ive finally decided that i want one of these beasts, and i like what you've done with your mods, so im going to contact Kingwa about me sending all the parts and just having it built with the new caps and wire in it already  and since i dont have one i cant go look for myself. also need to discuss having a lower gain put in for my jh-13's 

 thanks ahead of time, i dont think im the only one in the thread that appreciates what you've done._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *lmswjm* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_X2_

 

Looks like a Photo annotated write up like the Franken-Zero is being called for!


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Curra and I were chatting about the mods (Phoenix and RE1),parts list last weekend so he suggested a spread sheet to list all of what I have done and plan to do in the coming weeks (sizes, values etc). Everything needed to bring the units up to the latest rev (Max mod I call it) if others wish to follow suit.

 I'll let you guys know when the Phoenix sheet is ready. Should be sometime this weekend. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Peete.


*EDIT:* It's done ! PM me with your email address if you want the Phoenix BOM pdf.


----------



## SoupRKnowva

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Curra and I were chatting about the mods (Phoenix and RE1),parts list last weekend so he suggested a spread sheet to list all of what I have done and plan to do in the coming weeks (sizes, values etc). Everything needed to bring the units up to the latest rev (Max mod I call it) if others wish to follow suit.

 I'll let you guys know when the Phoenix sheet is ready. Should be sometime this weekend. 

 Peete.


*EDIT:* It's done ! PM me with your email address if you want the Phoenix BOM pdf. _

 

haha i shoulda known you would be ahead of me on that one peete 

 so how do you feel about the wire thing i was talking about?


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *SoupRKnowva* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_haha i shoulda known you would be ahead of me on that one peete 

 so how do you feel about the wire thing i was talking about?_

 

24 awg is a good size for the back panel I/O but I would go with regular 5N solid silver 22 awg or bigger for the DC lines (internal and cables).

 10 bucks a foot seems a little steep ...the Mundorf stuff is 4.20 a foot (24 awg) while the 5N 22 awg silver is around the same range (under 5 bucks a foot).

 The pdf BOM has everything listed but no instructions.

 Cap sizes in the amp section will not change for the smaller caps used (100uf Nover replaced with Nichicon 100uf 25V KZ MUSE ) but the 5 larger caps (4 in the head-amp section, 1 near the acss stages) are swapped out for 2200uf 25V and 1 2200uf 35V Nichicon FG (fine gold). It's easier to explain if you are familiar with the internal layout.

 Peete.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_24 awg is a good size for the back panel I/O but I would go with regular 5N solid silver 22 awg or bigger for the DC lines (internal and cables).

 10 bucks a foot seems a little steep ...the Mundorf stuff is 4.20 a foot (24 awg) while the 5N 22 awg silver is around the same range (under 5 bucks a foot).

 The pdf BOM has everything listed but no instructions.

 Cap sizes in the amp section will not change for the smaller caps used (100uf Nover replaced with Nichicon 100uf 25V KZ MUSE ) but the 5 larger caps (4 in the head-amp section, 1 near the acss stages) are swapped out for 2200uf 25V and 1 2200uf 35V Nichicon FG (fine gold). It's easier to explain if you are familiar with the internal layout.

 Peete._

 

No pichures with foolproof instructions!


----------



## SoupRKnowva

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_24 awg is a good size for the back panel I/O but I would go with regular 5N solid silver 22 awg or bigger for the DC lines (internal and cables).

 10 bucks a foot seems a little steep ...the Mundorf stuff is 4.20 a foot (24 awg) while the 5N 22 awg silver is around the same range (under 5 bucks a foot).

 The pdf BOM has everything listed but no instructions.

 Cap sizes in the amp section will not change for the smaller caps used (100uf Nover replaced with Nichicon 100uf 25V KZ MUSE ) but the 5 larger caps (4 in the head-amp section, 1 near the acss stages) are swapped out for 2200uf 25V and 1 2200uf 35V Nichicon FG (fine gold). It's easier to explain if you are familiar with the internal layout.

 Peete._

 

oh got ya, i think then that ill just stick with the mundorf you used since it doesnt cost too much, and you say it sounds good. And ill probably buy and extra 25% of everything in case its bad or they screw something up while building it, and have them throw anything extra back in the box when they ship it too me.

 and again thanks for all the effort you put into this peete 

 Edit: and you havent actually done the cap upgrades in the amp portion yet right? might wait to see how much awesomer it gets with those 

 Edit2: i guess its just because i dont really know anything about electronics, but are the bypass caps mandatory? does it have those to begin with? and the caps that were bad in the first 10 units, would you not recommend using better versions of those anyways? even though the new ones kingwa is using are good? Sorry for all the questions, i jsut want to know whats up before i order anything :redface:


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *SoupRKnowva* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_oh got ya, i think then that ill just stick with the mundorf you used since it doesnt cost too much, and you say it sounds good. And ill probably buy and extra 25% of everything in case its bad or they screw something up while building it, and have them throw anything extra back in the box when they ship it too me.

 and again thanks for all the effort you put into this peete 

 Edit: and you havent actually done the cap upgrades in the amp portion yet right? might wait to see how much awesomer it gets with those _

 

Correct...I haven't completed the amp section yet but I plan on it very soon. I have no idea what the amp section mod should add but I think it's reasonable to expect a small increase in refinement. I'll leave it at that until I can evaluate it first hand 

 Peete.


----------



## superchan

audio-gd ROC or Phoenix for a balanced HD 800 plz ??


----------



## punk_guy182

You might as well get the Phoenix if you have the HD800.


----------



## XLR1

Quote: 





punk_guy182 said:


> You might as well get the Phoenix if you have the HD800.


 


 Do you really think the Phoenix would work well with the HD800?  I would like to try the HD800 balanced, but I wonder if the Phoenix will work best with the HD800.  (I already have balanced cables for the HD800.)  In SE my HD800s work very well with the Corda Opera which is know as a warm amp.  Unless I have misread, most reviewers feel the Phoenix is completely transparent, maybe even a tiny (very tiny) bit thin.  I am guessing my T1s would work great with the Phoenix, but I am reluctant to reterminate my cable which is more difficult with the T1 than the HD800.


----------



## tim3320070

Phoenix is not thin, it's powerful, punchy and revealing.


----------



## pompon

When I heard phoenix + hd800 + dhc complement ... was the first time I had that bass! My tube amp in singleend is not able to give that bass ...
  I should get my phoenix next week. I will be able to tell more ...


----------



## punk_guy182

Quote: 





xlr1 said:


> Do you really think the Phoenix would work well with the HD800?  I would like to try the HD800 balanced, but I wonder if the Phoenix will work best with the HD800.  (I already have balanced cables for the HD800.)  In SE my HD800s work very well with the Corda Opera which is know as a warm amp.  Unless I have misread, most reviewers feel the Phoenix is completely transparent, maybe even a tiny (very tiny) bit thin.  I am guessing my T1s would work great with the Phoenix, but I am reluctant to reterminate my cable which is more difficult with the T1 than the HD800.


 

 The HD800 + Phoenix combo is a great one and I base my opinion on others and on mine. Thanks Pompon for letting me try your HD800 on my Phoenix at Salon Son & Image.


----------



## SoupRKnowva

So has anyone used the phoenix balanced in to balanced out with a IEM? Im not worried about noise, but about how much volume control ill be getting. jh-13's are 28 ohms with 119db/w. In the thread some people mentioned with denons the were only able to use like the first ten steps.
   
  And another question, why if the amp has a built in phase splitter would the gain only be 50% when using single ended input? all 4 channels would still be being used. I understand if you're using single ended output why that would change.


----------



## Currawong

Yes, you lose some volume when using the single-ended inputs. You don't have to turn the volume control to double the setting though, it's not a conventional volume that attenuates the input.


----------



## haloxt

I have some lowish mid sensitivity headphones and use between 8 to 18 volume, but this is with SE DAC. There's no channel imbalance at low volumes, but I think you will have issues selecting volume with a JH13 unless Kingwa can make a custom gain setting for you.


----------



## tim3320070

Wow, it's only been a 6 months I have been without the Phoenix. I used my iBasso D10 during much of that time, then went to the Roc figuring it would suffice (90% did). When I happened upon a good deal for for a Phoenix locally, I reinstated this beauty into my system. I have to say that I am beginning to understand what all the crazy power regulation Kingwa puts into his units can do for sound (the main difference between the Roc and Phoenix). It really amounts to blacker background and a wider soundstage. The Roc is excellent but I started hearing things from behind my ears and was wondering what was wrong at first. Voices are in front, instruments are all around and behind to some extent. I can't believe I had forgotten this sound. This is coming from a skeptic. This post is not to make light of the Roc, it is excellent but the Phoenix really is an improvement- $500 worth, I don't know, but if you're splitting hairs and have the money.....
  Keep in mind this is with a Ref-3/Ref-1 source via ACSS and lesser sources may not reveal what I experienced.


----------



## momomo6789

i have used jh13s there is hiss not a lot but its there and it can go low enough to be used @ 1 position


----------



## SoupRKnowva

Quote: 





momomo6789 said:


> i have used jh13s there is hiss not a lot but its there and it can go low enough to be used @ 1 position


 

 could you go into more detail on the jh-13 use? was it balanced? balanced source? how far up the dial in volume could you go? things like that. Was the hiss audible at listenable volumes? or was it just at the top of the dial where it would blow your ears?


----------



## SoupRKnowva

Alright guys, just wanted to thank you all for the advice, and peete for the guide. But alas my dreams of owning a Phoenix will have to be put on a back burner for now, my computer died completely today  so the purchase of a new iMac will have to take precedence in this instance. Though the day will come when I do finally get one, maybe there'll evn be an upgrade by then


----------



## pompon

Pretty impressive! 
   
  In single end ... it's boring ... but not in balanced. Bass, dynamic and smoother highs. Better soundstage (specially depth of the soundstage).
  (in single end I am using the same DAC, same cable in balanced).


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Looking good pompon 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  Peete.


----------



## t/sound

I eventually got 2 of my headphones balanced and am enjoying the full potential of the Phoenix.
  I have used my JVC DX 1000 single ended and found the combination slightly dark and the trebble sweet but lacking in sparkle.
  On the 0/70 volume setting I was comfortable at 16-19 / 70 .
   
  I had these recabled with " vortex silver " and Bocchino BAXLR connectors.
  The overall SQ has improved quite a bit and the trebble has gained what was amiss. The bass has tightened up and is much faster and better controlled.
  The entire nature of the Headphone has changed and it has a more forward sound but clarity and stage still great.
  I can now listen comfortably at 8- 10 / 70 and have found that at even lower volumes the bass slam is still present and overall detail excellent. Female vocal with guitar on live recordings provide some sit very still moments with goosebumps all over.
  I am very happy overall and have my library to rediscover.
   
  I thought I would share my impressions for two good reasons, 1) I know solid state might not be first choice for the JVC DX 1000 and this combination may not be the best pairing. I know there are a lot of variables here but balancing would always introduce a few variables or changes to remember. Using silver cable and better connectors for balancing for me has made the Phoenix / DX1000 pairing  very enjoyable.
                                                                                            2) The JVC DX 1000 in balanced format is not very common in these forums and impressions are rare.
   
  I will post my impressions about the balanced AKG K701 when I have had more time to listen.
   
  I have also just received my Beyer T1  and wonder if there are any Phoenix owners with impressions on the pairing and in particular se / balanced use.
   
  Shade,
  Tom.


----------



## winzzz

wow...how much that cable cost you ?
   
  is it hard to recable dx1000 ? i mean opening the cup and bla bla bla...
   
  can i go balance using the stock cable ?


----------



## t/sound

Hi winzzz , I don't measure quality in $ and cents, let's just say I am happy with a reasonable exchange of value.
  I guess it's easy to do if you got the skills, I had it done by qusp , a headfier and mot, a great cable builder.
  I can imagine a fair amount of stress working inside a $1K phone. I can't be 100% shure, but using the stock cable could be done, about 3/4 pin Xlr's I am unshure. .
  I wanted to bring out the high side and add sparkle hence the silver cable, and it worked well.
   
  Tom.
  
  Quote: 





winzzz said:


> wow...how much that cable cost you ?
> 
> is it hard to recable dx1000 ? i mean opening the cup and bla bla bla...
> 
> can i go balance using the stock cable ?


----------



## haloxt

Quote:


winzzz said:


> wow...how much that cable cost you ?
> 
> is it hard to recable dx1000 ? i mean opening the cup and bla bla bla...
> 
> can i go balance using the stock cable ?


 

 If you are good with a soldering iron it looks possible to do. Look at these pictures of the dx1000
   
  http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/391515/jvc-hp-dx1000-mod#post_5150715
   
  The solder points for the black and white wires are in a small space so removing the driver from the housing is probably a necessary step to removing stock wire and soldering on new cables.
   
  You can also reterminate stock dx1000 cable to balanced, I'm guessing black is negative and white is positive, but I may be wrong, sometimes companies do things backwards.
   
  Pin guide: http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/Headphoneamp/Phoenix/ModifyEN.htm


----------



## Currawong

It's easiest to do a 4-pin XLR modification and use the cut-off tail as an adaptor.


----------



## t/sound

I would like to add my impression of the AKG K 701 in balanced format with the Phoenix amp.
  There are many threads about the K701 and it is a hot love or hate topic, don't want to go there.
  There were many aspects of the phone I liked stock, and some I wished were different sounding.
   
  The recable uses the Vortex copper cable with Bocchino xlr's , I hoped the bass would be more palpable and the treble would be tamed.
  The Phoenix in balanced format drives these phones extremely well, the best I have heard so far.
  I am not going to go into superlatives but to just say I feel like sending you a postcard from paradise saying "wish you were here".
  I have gained a lot of of respect for this phone, and even more respect for the Phoenix. Give it a great source at one end and great phone on the other and it will certainly connected them well.
  I am hearing effortless power and a pitch black backround.

  Happy Shade.


----------



## winzzz

woahh..nice pic...more impressions please...
   
  that recable job looks awesome...


----------



## haloxt

Here's the unpopular pfr-v1 balanced with 2ft canare L-2B2AT cable wearing white socks and red moisture barrier tape (???) and terminated in 4-pin mini-xlr, connected to unsheathed (for weight reduction) 10ft doublehelix nucleotide extension cable terminated in 4-pin xlr. The felt pads are for shifting weight to cheekbones  very comfy now. Only a matter of time before phoenix blows up the small drivers with vibrating bass.


----------



## Skylab

t/sound - What beautiful balanced DX1000's!  WOW!


----------



## Currawong

Quote: 





haloxt said:


> Here's the unpopular pfr-v1 balanced with 2ft canare L-2B2AT cable wearing white socks and red moisture barrier tape (???) and terminated in 4-pin mini-xlr, connected to unsheathed (for weight reduction) 10ft doublehelix nucleotide extension cable terminated in 4-pin xlr. The felt pads are for shifting weight to cheekbones  very comfy now. Only a matter of time before phoenix blows up the small drivers with vibrating bass.


 

 Nice one!  I've seen those phones, but didn't get a chance to try them.  Someone described them as mini-K1000s with it being a bit fiddly to get the position right for the bass tube to work.  How do you find them?


----------



## haloxt

It's very easy to wear correctly, just adjust headband slider so it's touching between ear and head like wearing glasses, then adjust bottom slider to properly insert into your ear.
   
  They excel at mids and highs, but bass is extremely localized, positioning data is all in one spot via bass duct touching the entrance of your ear canal. Recabling improves bass, especially since stock cable is super thin litz wire, here is a pic comparing nucleotide vs stock litz wire http://yfrog.com/0vcimg0456uj
   
  But it can be hard to recable, I had to resort to 25 awg canare wire because there was no way I could insert 24 awg doublehelix nucleotide there, and even then I had to strip 3" of insulation on one wire to insert into driver, then insulate again from the other side, so I highly recommend 27-28 awg max if anyone gets this and recable it. I think they are a good deal at $180 shipped price on US amazon, but to make it balanced is a PITA, even if you only reterminate the 4 ft stock cable since you have to remove enamel from the litz wire by melting with spare soldering tip you don't mind dirtying or sandpaper.


----------



## t/sound

Thanks Skylab, its all your fault you know. Your review and comments convinced me to get this Phone and you were spot on. I have had great fun thus far.
  There has been a lot said about the stock DX 1000, and I was apprehensive about balancing, I am glad I had it done.
   
  You know the Phoenix well, I just had to give it a go. I am still a bit unsteady with the change in sound, did not expect this big a change. I guess I'll soon stop worrying and just enjoy the spoils. I know its supposed to be easy to drive, but just can't get over the dynamics at 6/70 steps. I would have tried a balanced DNA Sonnet but the Audio gd synergy won out. I still might send the amp back for an upgraded volume control but will wait untill the new T1 has settled.
   
  I like the Stockfisch label and Sara K " Don't I know you from somewhere" solo live is spooky good.
   
  DX Shade.
  
  Quote: 





skylab said:


> t/sound - What beautiful balanced DX1000's!  WOW!


----------



## les_garten

Quote: 





t/sound said:


> Thanks Skylab, its all your fault you know. Your review and comments convinced me to get this Phone and you were spot on. I have had great fun thus far.
> There has been a lot said about the stock DX 1000, and I was apprehensive about balancing, I am glad I had it done.
> 
> You know the Phoenix well, I just had to give it a go. I am still a bit unsteady with the change in sound, did not expect this big a change. I guess I'll soon stop worrying and just enjoy the spoils. I know its supposed to be easy to drive, but just can't get over the dynamics at 6/70 steps. I would have tried a balanced DNA Sonnet but the Audio gd synergy won out. I still might send the amp back for an upgraded volume control but will wait untill the new T1 has settled.
> ...


 

 What upgraded Vol Control are you talking about?
   
  Phoenix has a proprietary and unique Vol ctrl and source selector.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

That's what I was wondering as well Les.
   
  T/Sound the Phoenix already has the best volume control design you can build today....there is nothing better that I know of (for any price).
   
  Peete.


----------



## t/sound

Peete, the volume control has degraded so badly that I can only use the remote to set the volume.                                                                                                                                                                                                                        If I am not mistaken you yourself  has changed this on your unit . This has been discussed before.                                                                                                                                                                                                                       However, I value the Phoenix so much I am prepared to send it back for repair and while they are at it , ask Mr Quinqua if its possible to use more of the volume control, a change in gain setting if you will.  Even using the K701 I only use 16/ 70 setting.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Nothing wrong with the sound, I just can't turn the dial.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           Unfortunately I don't have your skills and lust after the changes you have made, alas I can only drool .
  Quote: 





pricklely peete said:


> That's what I was wondering as well Les.
> 
> T/Sound the Phoenix already has the best volume control design you can build today....there is nothing better that I know of (for any price).
> 
> Peete.


----------



## les_garten

I don't think you understand the Vol Control or some issues it has had.
   
  There is a Rotary Encoder that has an excess of Oil in it for lubrication.  For a premium Encoder, they are only about $3-$6.
   
  It needs the Encoder opened and cleaned or replaced.  Because it is a digital encoder, it is not an "upgrade".  There will be ZERO improvement to SQ.
   
  You may find that yours is still usable if you press it inward when turning the knob.  I replaced mine and the new one started doing the same thing fairly quickly. 
   
  So now I need to hunt one down or clean the oil out of the one on mine.
   
  Too bad you don't know someone who can solder, it's just a few wires that need to be soldered.


----------



## t/sound

Thanks Les.
  That clears a few things up.
  
  Quote: 





les_garten said:


> I don't think you understand the Vol Control or some issues it has had.
> 
> There is a Rotary Encoder that has an excess of Oil in it for lubrication.  For a premium Encoder, they are only about $3-$6.
> 
> ...


----------



## Currawong

Les: I thought you found an Elna that could potentially replace them? If not, maybe we'll have to hunt something down as an alternative.


----------



## les_garten

I did, but I lost the info.  I'll pull one of those encoders out and measure it and we'll hunt them down.  I'll shoot some more detailed pix of the encoder and post them.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

I had forgotten about the encoder issues......my mistake t/sound. This kind of repair is the perfect starter project for the budding DIY beginner !!!! Any one of us with the knowledge would be happy to walk you through it if need be.
   
  It's funny though mine works just great but I hardly ever use the actual vol knob (which likely explains why it still works just fine) D'uh 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





. I'll see what I can come up with while Les tracks down the relevant info for the Elna part.
   
  Les have a look at these....(not sure they are compatible but might as well post the link) http://www.cui.com/catfeatures.asp?catky=112362&subcatky1=994182&subcatky2=997832
   
  Here is another tack entirely...magnetic encoder http://www.renishaw.com/en/magnetic-encoder-modules-offer-non-contact-alternative-to-potentiometers--10832
   
  Peete.


----------



## XLR1

Quote: 





pricklely peete said:


> I had forgotten about the encoder issues......my mistake t/sound. This kind of repair is the perfect starter project for the budding DIY beginner !!!! Any one of us with the knowledge would be happy to walk you through it if need be.
> 
> It's funny though mine works just great but I hardly ever use the actual vol knob (which likely explains why it still works just fine) D'uh
> 
> ...


 


 Peete, 
  Do you use the remote because you do not sit near the amp?  The Phoenix really appeals to me, but it is so large that I will want to put it with my entertainment center.  (With a smaller balanced amp like the Lake People's V181, I would put it on my end table next to my chair.)  That puts me about 10-12 feet away.  The remote would work well for me, but I am concerned about losing some of the SQ if I add a balanced extension cable?  Do you use an extension cable?
  Thanks


----------



## Currawong

XLR1: The whole point of balanced is that the common mode noise rejection allows for long cable runs, so it should be no problem.  That's why the huge cable runs you see at concerts are balanced.


----------



## XLR1

Quote: 





currawong said:


> XLR1: The whole point of balanced is that the common mode noise rejection allows for long cable runs, so it should be no problem.  That's why the huge cable runs you see at concerts are balanced.


 

 Great!  That is news to me.  Being able to use an extension opens up several balanced large amp possibilities.  Thanks.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote: 





xlr1 said:


> Peete,
> Do you use the remote because you do not sit near the amp?  The Phoenix really appeals to me, but it is so large that I will want to put it with my entertainment center.  (With a smaller balanced amp like the Lake People's V181, I would put it on my end table next to my chair.)  That puts me about 10-12 feet away.  The remote would work well for me, but I am concerned about losing some of the SQ if I add a balanced extension cable?  Do you use an extension cable?
> Thanks


 

 I sit pretty far away from it so yes I use the remote 99% of the time. I hardly ever use the Phoenix for a head amp with my current cable length, 7 ft (to the 650's) making such an arrangement somewhat awkward. I hope to roll my own balanced cables in the near future and would like to move my source rack closer to the computer and as a result make the Phoenix/RE1/CD7 truly dual purpose. Unfortunately the sheer amount of balanced cables I would need to build will make this project a not so affordable prospect (even if I DIY them all). However eventually I hope to replace all of the single ended connections between the Phoenix and the amps/crossovers with the balanced Mundorf recipe I came up with for the ACSS lines.
   
  My main objection to an extension cable is down to the additional connections such an arrangement would present not to mention that with a headphone cable lengths over 10 ft become cumbersome not to mention tricky WRT inductance/capacitance/resistance issues. An XLR IC has a ground run (pin 1) whereas the headphone runs are minus those conductors (4 wire rather than 6) with the additional issue presented by combing the 4 wires together into one (long run). An ideal solution would be to run those as wholly separate L/R channels (like the TOTL Double Helix HD800 cable)  but long lengths once again would cost a fortune (as would an extension cable). I like 6-8ft as the sweet spot.
   
  Peete.


----------



## haloxt

My headphone cables are all around 10-12 feet so I can move around my room  and with detachable cables for cable rolling and portable use ^^. When I experimented with SE, shorter lengths were indeed better sound quality, but I haven't tested length effect on SQ with balanced cables.


----------



## les_garten

Quote: 





pricklely peete said:


> I had forgotten about the encoder issues......my mistake t/sound. This kind of repair is the perfect starter project for the budding DIY beginner !!!! Any one of us with the knowledge would be happy to walk you through it if need be.
> 
> It's funny though mine works just great but I hardly ever use the actual vol knob (which likely explains why it still works just fine) D'uh
> 
> ...


 

  
   
  The Magnetic Encoder looks pretty interesting!
   
  Here's what I may order, it's an Alpha Encoder.  I sent a RFQ.
   
http://www.alphapotentiometers.net/html/16mm_encoder_2.html
   
  The part number is 3EN/161 2 E 3 D1 24
   
  That's a 20mm Knurled/Splined shaft.
   
  If you ask KW to send Encoders, he'll send some that look the same, except the shaft is "Flatted".  I don't see how you use the current knob with those.  The knob is splined.


----------



## tim3320070

Not gay but check out the sweet knobs that could work:
  http://www.guitarnucleus.com/gnstore/knobs.html#volmetal


----------



## les_garten

Quote: 





tim3320070 said:


> Not gay but check out the sweet knobs that could work:
> http://www.guitarnucleus.com/gnstore/knobs.html#volmetal


 
   
   
  I really like the Phoenix knobs though!


----------



## BenBau

Could someone please measure the voltages coming out of the power-box?
   
  Two weeks ago, I had to clean my cabinet so I took everything out. The Phoenix boxes were temporarily lying on their sides on the floor. After reconnecting, everything worked but the maximum volume was very soft. Volume control is working though, I hear the relays clicking and there is change of volume. Also selecting inputs works properly, but the maximum sound level is far to low, both from my HP and in Pre-Amp mode.
   
  When I measured the voltages coming from the power-box, I measured 24V from the left output and 7V from the right. I opened the case and saw that one of the power connectors was broken and there were a lot of pieces of metal (cast-iron) loose inside the case. My theory is that one of them caused a short circuit. One of the voltage regulators on the right side measured differently from the other ones. I contacted Kingwa and he sent me some new ones. After replacing the "assumed" faulty one, my voltages seem to be all right: both sides measure 24V now without the amp-box connected. With the amp-box connected, I measure 18V on its circuit board inside (left and right).
  
  Sadly, the max volume is unchanged and is still far to low. Are my voltages correct now?
  Is there a way to "reset" volume-control?
  Any other ideas?


----------



## Currawong

BenBau: Contact Kingwa if there is weird stuff happening. He'll know what to test, if you have a voltmeter. 
   
  Kingwa, I think, needs to use better power connectors.


----------



## BenBau

He's away on business for a week. I'm being impatient!


----------



## punk_guy182

He's coming back this monday.


----------



## BenBau

I exchanged a few emails with Kingwa, but as you know his English is not very comprehensive and he does not give answers to all your questions.
  Anyway, my voltages are correct now: 6V for the control part and 18V for the amps. The exchange of the power regulator was the solution, but unfortunately my sound is still soft.
  I discovered that it is actually signal leakage! I hear the soft sound on Selector 1-5 if I have an analog source connected to IN-1 (or any other input). I know signal leakage is normal, but on Selecor 1 I don't have the "full signal" apparently (only leakage signal).
  The clicking I hear when changing inputs with the Selector are the volume relays. If I set the volume to 0 on all inputs and then change the input from 1-5 with the Selector, I do not hear relays clicking. Is this normal? Is anyone willing to test this for me: set volume to 0 on Selector 1-5 and then turn the Selector-knob - do you hear input relays clicking?


----------



## haloxt

I set volume to 0 on all selections and turned selection knob, heard relay. Remote, I also hear relay.


----------



## BenBau

Thank you haloxt, that's what I expected.
  There seems to be something wrong with the control of the input relays. Could be a software problem I think. The serial connection between the power and amp box probably uses some kind of control protocol; if volume works, so should be the "steering" of the input relays (I'm guessing here). Another possibility is that some pins of the sub9 connector are actually used for the volume control and some others for the input control. Exchanging the serial-cable did not change anything (I have 4 original cables).


----------



## Pricklely Peete

BenBau,
   
  Double check the ribbon cable connections (to the pcb) that is between the DC lines in the Amp chassis. They are really fine wires that connect to the preamp/headamp switch and the pcb and it does not take much for them to break free (if something is loose inside for instance). Other than that it's a tough call on what the problem is without testing the unit with the proper gear. It's also possible the short caused further damage than has been uncovered thus far.
   
  I'm due to complete the MAX Mod on the Phoenix pretty soon (once I finish up with the RE1) so I may be able to add some further thoughts/suggestions WRT to the relay banks. Hmm...one side of the relay bank pcb (2 in total slung underneath) is hard wired into the main pcb while the other end is pins + inline socket ( double row IIRC). Have a look at the hard wired ends of the relay banks...maybe something has broken free ?  You said you had some metal bits floating about in the chassis...were they large or just some solder splash ? Oh another spot that comes to mind is near the front of the amp pcb (where the head amp section is) I believe there is some wiring/jumpers installed ...make sure those are connected properly. I have an early serial number Phoenix so yours may or may not have this wiring (now that I think of it). Anyway it gives you a few spots to look at while you and Kingwa try and narrow down the issue.
   
  Good luck !!!!
   
  Peete.


----------



## les_garten

Quote: 





benbau said:


> Thank you haloxt, that's what I expected.
> There seems to be something wrong with the control of the input relays. Could be a software problem I think. The serial connection between the power and amp box probably uses some kind of control protocol; if volume works, so should be the "steering" of the input relays (I'm guessing here). Another possibility is that some pins of the sub9 connector are actually used for the volume control and some others for the input control. Exchanging the serial-cable did not change anything (I have 4 original cables).


 

 Also the encoders can start "skipping" because they have too much oil in them.  Push inward on the knob a little and see if it starts switching.  If so, the encoders can be cleaned or changed out for better encoders.


----------



## BenBau

Well, there actually IS a dedicated pin for the input relay switching. It's on pin 4 of the DB9 and is called DA3 (according to Kingwa). I measured it from the control panel (with the blue display) to the amp-box and it's intact and not shorted to ground. Now the strangest thing: I turned on the Phoenix but I forgot to connect the serial cable. I connected the serial cable without turning off the Phoenix. The input relays are clicking again, but only inputs 1, 2 and 3 (is that normal?). The volume is a bit louder, but still too soft and still the same on all inputs (=signal leakage). Another thing: on inputs 1 and 2 the volume relays keep clicking if I keep turning the knob "under 0" or "over 70".
   
  There has to be something wrong with the control panel. The primary problem was the broken voltage regulator with 7V on the right-side output. I soldiered in a new one provided by Kingwa. The voltages are fixed now. Somehow the control panel must have gotten "messed up" or maybe also a short-circuit. It's just not logical that there's a fault in the amp box, it must be in the power box.
   
  Les, I know of the oil issue in the encoders. That's not the issue here. I use the remote for control.
   
  Pricklely, I don't think there a problem with the relay banks under the circuit board in the amp box. There IS control of volume and I hear the volume relays clicking, but the max. volume is far too low. The input relays are also clicking, but not the way they should i.e. connecting the input signal to the amp circuit. The preamp button is properly working: my balanced connected C1 Masters produce unfortunately also too soft sound in preamp mode.
  The biggest part of "free floating" cast-aluminium from the power connector was 5mm! Also a lot of smaller debris inside the power box. "Clean working" or better, the lack of it, really is an issue Kingwa has to fix (still); it's high-end unworthy!


----------



## Currawong

I agree he does need to start using much better power connectors, and preferably ACSS connectors as well.


----------



## pompon

I tried something few days ago ...
   
  I was using my Phoenix as preamp on my speaker setup,
   
   
  I tried my dac directly on my poweramp (adjusting my numeric volume control in foobar to avoid to have something too loud,).
   
   
  Result : More bass and mid bass this manner.
   
  If Phoenix is really neutral, I should not notice difference in tone level right ? I am pretty convinced the Phoenix suck some amount of bass to give it's sound.
   
   
  My speaker don't have a great mid-bass and I am using subwoofer for the deep bass. I prefer my DAC directly on my poweramp over the Phoenix acting as preamp.
   
  BTW, the Phoenix still for me my best headphone amp ... it's my only balanced anyway.
  HD800 and HD800 balanced ... we tested that few days ago in my home (meet I was hosting) ... we had 2 pair of HD800. The only thing bad ... no reterminated stock cable ... I was using DHC XLR. Balanced was hand down better in every way.
   
  What give the cable itself ? I don't know but for sure, it's was smooter in balanced with the DHC with more bass and punch.


----------



## BenBau

Tomorrow I will ship my Phoenix back to China. I did not succeed in repairing it myself. I hate that; my new C1 Master(s) are waiting!


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote: 





pompon said:


> I tried something few days ago ...
> 
> I was using my Phoenix as preamp on my speaker setup,
> 
> ...


 

 Were the levels matched for the test between the two ? Sometimes a small difference in level can give a false impression.
   
  Peete.


----------



## Currawong

PP: More so, what do the outputs of both the Phoenix and the DAC measure?  I know there seems to be a conventional wisdom that an active pre-amp is better than a passive one (I'm slightly over-generlising here considering the circumstances) but there are some fantastic rigs that purely use passive pre-amps, such as the one Van Den Hul made.  I doubt that would work well in every system. I have tried the Phoenix as an active pre with various headphone amps and the result wasn't always as good as directly from the DAC.  I wish I had more gear to experiment with in this regard though.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Well Curra the problem with using the active pre into a headamp is the simple fact that most headamps (almost all of them) already have a preamp section built in...so double amping the line level signal will give less than an ideal result. So for the headamp application a passive pre is almost a must (if you plan on using one). An interesting quirk of the KHA amp is the lack of preamp section which made it fun for me to try out any pre I have on hand. Most headamps are nit built like this though. It might be possible to alter a SS design (to bypass the pre section) far easier than tube based one but that is just guessing on my part.
   
  In a lot of ways the passive vol control provides a very clean attenuation of the line level signal but and this is a big but, the output level is almost always compromised as is the impedance curve in some way (with conventional pots) as you adjust the Vol up or down. The impedance changes as the vol is adjusted which is a problem an active pre stage overcomes. The active pre stage also has a fixed output impedance (usually 47Kohms for SS and 100Kohms for tube) A mismatch with the amp (tube or SS) can cause audible problems which is why folks need to pay attention to such things when selecting gear. Remember those MIT IC's I bought  for my ref system, they are impedance matched between the preamp/Xovers and amps. It makes a big difference to these ears.
   
  My active/passive GFP-750 is a good example of the differences...in passive mode it outputs 1V whereas in active mode it's the standard 2.0V. It drives the amp stages to what I call the sweet spot (every amp has an area where it's most comfortable operating) far easier than the passive setting, so it's possible you are not driving the amp to it's fullest capability in passive mode. This depends on the input stage sensitivity of the amp being driven, some like lots of juice to get there while others require less and the output V of the passive control should adequate to fully drive the amp stages. Not all passive units are the same WRT what they output (vs input level) and of course the quality of the attenuators,wiring, jacks etc all play a crucial role in the end result. At any rate as far as setting levels it's very difficult to set them by ear alone, you'll almost always be off by a few db (which is critical for a fair evaluation) so I use an SPL meter for such things.....just a cheap little RadioShack unit which does a decent job.
   
  An interesting passive device is this one .....  http://diyaudioprojects.com/Solid/DIY-Lightspeed-Passive-Attenuator/   which eliminates the problems conventional attenuators bring to a passive pre. As always there are trade-offs to be considered. I bet the Van Den Hul is a nice unit provided it's matched to the right amp. That is the key to any of these systems...another advantage the active pre has over the passive...it can be used with just about any amp made and the result will be predictable (as long as there is not a gross impedance mismatch). Of course you could add a zero gain buffer after the passive pre if need be but that is somewhat counterproductive to the idea of the passive unit.
   
  As for the outputs on the Phoenix and RE1 I haven't measured them but I would guess they are double the 2.0V standard (for balanced mode) I'd have to guess they are anywhere from 4-5.0V and 2.0-2.5V SE'd. I should measure them and find out.
   
  Peete.


----------



## Charnwood

BenBau: How much time do you have on your C1 Masters?
   
  I've had my C1 Masters for nearly a month and for about the first 30 hours they sounded lean and too quiet and I'm wondering if this is what you are hearing with your C1 Masters. This is 30 hours with music playing, just leaving them powered on seemed to have little effect. Just after I passed the 30 hour mark I left them powered on over night without any music playing only to discover the next they had lost much of what they had gained the previous day. But a couple of hours playing music at low volume and they were sounding better than they had the previous evening. Since then they have settled down somewhat and have sounded okay even from power on. They are still running in and sound better some days than others but are improving as time goes on.

  
  Quote: 





benbau said:


> Pricklely, I don't think there a problem with the relay banks under the circuit board in the amp box. There IS control of volume and I hear the volume relays clicking, but the max. volume is far too low. The input relays are also clicking, but not the way they should i.e. connecting the input signal to the amp circuit. The preamp button is properly working: my balanced connected C1 Masters produce unfortunately also too soft sound in preamp mode.


----------



## BenBau

I have.... about 10 minutes on them!
   
  Awaiting my new C1s I took my gear apart to clean. The Phoenix was kaput when I reconnected it. It's on its way to China as we speak......


----------



## les_garten

Quote: 





benbau said:


> I have.... about 10 minutes on them!
> 
> Awaiting my new C1s I took my gear apart to clean. The Phoenix was kaput when I reconnected it. It's on its way to China as we speak......


 

 Sorry to hear about your Phoenix!  That's a Drag.  Let us know what needed to be fixed on it when you get the Autopsy results!


----------



## Pricklely Peete

I wouldn't be surprised if the C1's take a _really long time_ to settle fully. The FBI-500 I rebuilt ( a few months back) and gave to a friend for his BD has been running daily (6-8 hours or so) for the last 2.5 months (turned off at night) and it still isn't run in fully. The C1 Masters have 48 power transistors and 210,000uf of mains filtering each (IIRC, while the FBI-500 has 24 transistors, 12 per channel, and 140,000uf of filtering)....that means a long burn in period.
   
  I wouldn't be surprised if the C1's take anywhere from 500 to over 1K hours to reach their full potential.
   
  Sorry to hear of your amp return  BenBau, hopefully the turnaround is quick.
   
  Peete.


----------



## Charnwood

Quote: 





pricklely peete said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if the C1's take a _really long time_ to settle fully. The FBI-500 I rebuilt ( a few months back) and gave to a friend for his BD has been running daily (6-8 hours or so) for the last 2.5 months (turned off at night) and it still isn't run in fully. The C1 Masters have 48 power transistors and 210,000uf of mains filtering each (IIRC, while the FBI-500 has 24 transistors, 12 per channel, and 140,000uf of filtering)....that means a long burn in period.
> 
> I wouldn't be surprised if the C1's take anywhere from 500 to over 1K hours to reach their full potential.
> 
> ...


 


 Thanks for this. I'm managing about 40 hours a week so it could be 2011 before mine have fully settled. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Still, they're sounding very good even now.
   
  Edit: Just had some new longer balanced cables arrive so I can now connect the C1's to my Phoenix.


----------



## tim3320070

That should sound very nice. I have my Phoenix hooked to an Emotiva XPA-2 and it sounds great (not sure if it's better than the FBI-500 I had but I may get a C10 amp someday to compare).


----------



## Pricklely Peete

I'm just about finished Phase 2 of the Phoenix Max mod. I had the preamp/headamp switch fail on me last evening (those bad caps from the first 10 units are the cause I'm almost certain). There are six of them near the jack panel that I replaced with exact value Elna cerafine/Panasonic FM and Nichicon FG same value as stock but the Panny FM caps are 470uf 35V rather than 470 16V.
   
  Getting the relay banks off the underside is major PITA since the wiring on one end of them is custom with pins/socket on the other end.....as a result of that I can't decide if it's worth pulling the last Nover caps for Nichicon KZ Muse or just leave them be....it's a fiddly business to get to those 12 x 100uf cap pads.
   
  Anyway having the amp go on me last evening gave me the kick in pants I needed to get the mod completed and to change those faulty caps out at the same time. Hopefully that swap will bring the amp back to proper function .....here's a pic of what has been done so far (just 12 caps to go if I decide to pull the relay banks). I'm waiting on a question that I asked of Kingwa to be answered before testing/reassembly.
   
  In the pic are 16 x Nichicon 100uf 25V KZ Muse, 4 x 4700uf 35V FW, 2 x 100uf 25V FG, 1 X 2200uf 35V FG (back half of pcb out of view in this pic), 2 x Elna 4.7uf 50V cerafine, 2 x 470uf 35V Panasonic FM.
   

   
   
*EDIT : Important note* about polarity of the right hand pair of large caps (1500uf stock, 4700uf 35V Max mod). The silk screen of the cap's polarity is incorrect. As you see from the pic the negative pole of the FW caps (all 4) are installed facing left. The silk screen of the right side  pair has opposite polarity indicated on the pcb which is wrong. All other silk screen symbols are correct, it's just these two spots that are wrong. A good idea for reference is to take a pic of the entire pcb before getting started (if one decides to tackle this mod) that way you can double check cap polarity before first power up and avoid any costly errors. I'm not sure how many units have this error but I would imagine that has been taken care of by now. At any rate if you have an early production Phoenix this silk screen error in the event off a possible DIY mod, please keep this information in mind when installing the new caps.
   
  Peete.


----------



## les_garten

As Usual...
   
  Great Googly Moogly!
   
  Lot of work there!
   
  I was wondering how you were going to do those relays on the bottom.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote: 





les_garten said:


> As Usual...
> 
> Great Googly Moogly!
> 
> ...


 
   
   
  Thanks Les ! Yeah the relay banks are a bit of a head scratcher right now. I don't want to unsolder _all_ of the wires at one end. Maybe you and some other enterprising DIY types could toss out some ideas/suggestions, that would be a great help and appreciated (by myself) for sure.
   
  I have one way in mind already (which is explained below the attached pic).
   
  For now though I'm done with anymore DIY work this evening. I have the amp reassembled and back in the ref system and I'm extremely happy the Phoenix is working as it should once again. I had a tense moment or two after the hitting the power switch.
   
  Kingwa answered my question really quick, god bless the man. He said the likely culprit was one or both of the 470uf 16V caps. I was more than nervous at power up since I wasn't 100% sure it was just the cap or caps in question. I sure am glad it's working once again (to say the least).
   
*Just an FYI to members/lurkers* that read this post and the previous one on page 186. This problem only affected the first 10 amps shipped. Any amps made after the initial run of 10 have this problem fixed (with better quality caps).
   
  Here's a pic of one for the relay bank's wiring
   
   

   
  Better angle of the solid core jumpers
   

   

 As you can see +5K  G2 and +5V are solid core jumpers while the other 3 connections are made using the stock Audio-gd stranded SPC. Like I said earlier the plan is to unsolder the 3 solid jumpers from the top of the relay pcb and then lift off each pcb assembly until it clears the top of the solid jumpers, then rotate the boards back 180 degrees.
   
  If it comes down to it I will unsolder all connections but I hope that my idea or another members will save some labor and time.
   
*EDIT:* It occurs to me that the signal must pass through these wires (or at least some of them). I bet it'd be a good idea to swap out the stock stuff for some better quality wire. I have both Legenberg copper and Mundorf silver/gold hook up leftover ....hmmm. I think I'll change it out and get those last 12 caps swapped at the same time. Might as well even if it makes little difference....who knows though it might make a big difference. I certainly won't know unless I try it. I had low expectations for the RE1 MAX mod but the outcome has proven to be quite substantial. Cumulative small changes are just as effective as singular but significant ones in the end. What the hell ....I have the time and the material needed on hand already 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 The experiment continues..............
   
  Peete.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Well I finally completed the Phase 2 MAX mod (all of it) this past Tuesday. The parts swapped were those last 12 caps under the relay banks in the pics above and a swap of some of wring connecting both relay banks to main pcb.
   
  I used Nichicon 100uf 25V MUSE KZ for the 12 stock 100uf caps remaining, changed out the solid core jumpers in the pics (of the previous post) for soft annealed solid silver (22 awg 5N's in Teflon tubing) which totaled 6 jumpers in all. I kept the stock SPC for the data signals as it was way too difficult to sub in solid core silver in these spots. I added 4 Roderstein MKP1837 .01uf 160V bypass caps to the 4 large Nichicon FW 4700uf 35V caps I put in a few weeks back. There are two .1uf 63V WIMA caps in series with a 1/2 W resistor (of unknown value on the underside of the main pcb) on the head amp output pads that I may swap for slit foil 1/2w matched pairs (TI most likely) and some PIO/Teflon combo for the .1uf WIMA but that tweak won't be tried until a month or so has passed. The head amp outputs are now as impressive as the preamp function is....that was a nice surprise that I half expected once Phase 2 was completed. The level of improvement I expected ( with the RE1 and the Phoenix initially) is what surprised me though. I did not expect this much of an improvement frankly, but I will gladly take it.
   
  The combined tweaks and mods have really elevated the Phoenix and RE1 to new heights of resolution, speed,frequency extension and dynamic punch among other things (that stand out from the getgo). I'm still trying to absorb all of the changes with some further burn in time needed (the BG/Roderstein caps are a little more than half way there) The MAX mods were/are very worthwhile pursuits. There is performance to be had from stock config that is for sure. I;d say it's proof positive and a testament to the topology that it can scale like this with some better parts and some key additions. One other addition I'm contemplating is adding Teflon bypass caps to the BG's on the DSP1 board of the RE1. Might as well since I already have them on hand and I think I can squeeze them in 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  I'm definitely enjoying the entire system. The next and last unit on the MAX mod path is the CD7 transport.
   
  After I come back from vacation in a few weeks I'll get busy with the the transport  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Peete.


----------



## Currawong

The details of these mods make my head spin. I think until I can build a 'stat amp and be distracted enough from dynamics, I won't be able to consider mods to the Phoenix.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote: 





currawong said:


> The details of these mods make my head spin. I think until I can build a 'stat amp and be distracted enough from dynamics, I won't be able to consider mods to the Phoenix.


 

 Once you tackle that stat build this kind of mod should be a snap for you Curra 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Peete.


----------



## Currawong

Kingwa just got back to me about the Phoenix bias adjustment, for those of you who have been following FauDrei and Tigzstudio's experiments with the Roc and bias settings.  I haven't tried yet, but I guess it's the same as the Roc, that you measure each point against ground, which is any of the chassis screws, then turn the trimpot to get the voltage you want. All 4 must measure the same voltage, allowing for polarity, after adjustment.


----------



## tim3320070

Would this also affect the preamp output?


----------



## BenBau

Two months ago my Phoenix broke. A few pages ago I told you about that.
  I tried to fix it myself with help of Kingwa, but we did not succeed. I decided to send it in and shipped my Phoenix to China on juli 13.
  A week later I received a message form Kingwa; customs did not accept the provided "paperwork". Kingwa and Edwin helped me to create a CHINESE customs invoice. That's a month ago, but my Phoenix is still not released by customs.
  I am a big Audio-gd fan (see my sig.), but when it breaks you're in trouble. It really hurts me to warn potential buyers: caveat emptor !


----------



## les_garten

Quote: 





benbau said:


> Two months ago my Phoenix broke. A few pages ago I told you about that.
> I tried to fix it myself with help of Kingwa, but we did not succeed. I decided to send it in and shipped my Phoenix to China on juli 13.
> A week later I received a message form Kingwa; customs did not accept the provided "paperwork". Kingwa and Edwin helped me to create a CHINESE customs invoice. That's a month ago, but my Phoenix is still not released by customs.
> I am a big Audio-gd fan (see my sig.), but when it breaks you're in trouble. It really hurts me to warn potential buyers: caveat emptor !


 


 Sorry to hear you're having problems.  He has not had a "lot" of returns, so there may be a bit of a learning curve here for him as well.  Looks like Customs papers need to be prepared in at least English and Chinese for shipping back to China.


----------



## superchan

Quote: 





benbau said:


> Two months ago my Phoenix broke. A few pages ago I told you about that.
> I tried to fix it myself with help of Kingwa, but we did not succeed. I decided to send it in and shipped my Phoenix to China on juli 13.
> A week later I received a message form Kingwa; customs did not accept the provided "paperwork". Kingwa and Edwin helped me to create a CHINESE customs invoice. That's a month ago, but my Phoenix is still not released by customs.
> I am a big Audio-gd fan (see my sig.), but when it breaks you're in trouble. It really hurts me to warn potential buyers: caveat emptor !


 
  well this problem can be prevent by buy audio-gd gear by local agents its a little bit expensive. but it spare all the problem with the dammed customs is really a pain in the ash . The paper work must be 100% correct or the made it very difficult for getting it back or lets you pay more fees


----------



## BenBau

I'm the only one in my country with a Phoenix according to Kingwa! There are no agents or dealers within hundreds of miles!


----------



## superchan

Quote: 





benbau said:


> I'm the only one in my country with a Phoenix according to Kingwa! There are no agents or dealers within hundreds of miles!


 

  
*[size=x-small]France[/size]*  http://www.audiophonics.fr​ *[size=x-small]Britain[/size]*[size=x-small] http://www.ampcity.co.uk [/size]
*[size=x-small] Netherlands [/size]*www.pacificaudio.nl​  ​ I mean if you order from in the EU country's there is no custom fees ​ when something is broking choosing those dealers it will handle it easier for repairs.​


----------



## BenBau

I bought my Phoenix almost a year ago. At that time there were no agents.
  On the Pacific Audio website, I could only find the Audio-gd DACs.
  Kingwa told me a few weeks ago I was the only one with a Phoenix in The Netherlands. He also could have contacted "his" agent and asked him/her to help ....
   
  Also, money is never an issue for me. My (spare) time is much more limited.
   
  Anyone knows another brand that has a balanced HP amp with pre-amp function?


----------



## tim3320070

Kingwa will fix it I'm sure. It's not like there a million high end headphone amp out there from big names like Sony. Every company has issues occasionally.


----------



## BenBau

I'm getting grumpy. I'm two months now without a proper audio setup (analog from an Asus Xonar STX with LME49720HA opamps). My new C1 Masters are unused and the days are becoming shorter....


----------



## haloxt

I would keep pushing customs and ask Kingwa to push customs too.


----------



## BenBau

I have never been in contact with the Chinese customs. I would not know how to contact them, let alone how to push them. Al contact with customs is through Kingwa (or actually Edwin). He keeps talking about "apply to customs company", maybe an intermediate?


----------



## haloxt

http://english.customs.gov.cn/Default.aspx?tabid=3972
   
  I think this is the site, but the links to contact them aren't working. Can you ask Edwin for their contact information? I know people who can speak fluent Chinese so if you want I'll talk to customs just need your customs declaration number.


----------



## tim3320070

Squeaky wheel works more often than not....


----------



## BenBau

tim3320070 - Sorry? haloxt - I've sent an email to Kingwa/Edwin (thanks for your help)


----------



## tim3320070

I am sorry- it means that the one who asks the most gets the result desired. Can someone translate to Dutch better for me?


----------



## BenBau

Not necessary, I understand what it means now - hope you're right...


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Jeez BenBau...I feel for you man. I hope this mess gets fixed up and you get your amp back ASAP.
   
  This kind of delay is unacceptable IMO. Some guidance WRT paperwork related to sending units back for service (warranty replacement etc) should be posted on the website so this kind of snafu can be avoided.
   
  Peete.


----------



## les_garten

Quote: 





pricklely peete said:


> Jeez BenBau...I feel for you man. I hope this mess gets fixed up and you get your amp back ASAP.
> 
> This kind of delay is unacceptable IMO. Some guidance WRT paperwork related to sending units back for service (warranty replacement etc) should be posted on the website so this kind of snafu can be avoided.
> 
> Peete.


 

 Indeed.
   
  In the parlance of the day, this needs to be a teachable moment.
   
  It's really not A-GD's fault, that it is being intercepted at the border.
   
  But it is in A-GD's interest that they understand how to prevent this happening in the future.
   
  For instance,  email a PDF file in Chinese for documentation.  Or for affixing to the outside of the box.


----------



## Kees

Quote: 





benbau said:


> I bought my Phoenix almost a year ago. At that time there were no agents.
> On the Pacific Audio website, I could only find the Audio-gd DACs.
> Kingwa told me a few weeks ago I was the only one with a Phoenix in The Netherlands. He also could have contacted "his" agent and asked him/her to help ....
> 
> ...


 

 Rudistor RPX-100 (now RPX-300) is an excellent balanced headphone amp and preamp.


----------



## BenBau

Kingwa got a reply from customs; apparently he does use an intermediate ("a friend"). Customs blocked my package, because it contained two items and they said my invoice stated "audio amplifier", not "2 audio amplifiers" (how should customs know it's an amp and a power supply)?
  To obtain it, Kingwa should have an "import business license" which he has not. He says he will further investigate how to get the package....
   
  Great stuff: bureaucrats in a communist country (if it wasn't for MY Phoenix)....
   
  That Rudistor RPX-300 looks heavily overpriced!


----------



## Priyajeet

Has anyone else besides BenBau have any bad experiences with this amp? Not in terms of sound qualty but product quality in general? I am thinking of getting one but I dont really want to invest in something that might be brittle and getting repaired being a pain, specially reading last couple pages of this thread.


----------



## les_garten

Quote: 





priyajeet said:


> Has anyone else besides BenBau have any bad experiences with this amp? Not in terms of sound qualty but product quality in general? I am thinking of getting one but I dont really want to invest in something that might be brittle and getting repaired being a pain, specially reading last couple pages of this thread.


 


 The first 10 had caps that needed replacing.  Other than that, no.


----------



## BenBau

If my amp would get lost or stolen, I would buy a new one instantly!
  The only real issue I have with Audio-gd in general is the sloppy handling and the build quality. On all my devices there were small scratches and the fitting of the panels is not always "high end" worthy. In the end the sound quality is the most important. I would easily pay 25% more to have a perfect enclosure though!


----------



## Currawong

BenBau, I tend to think now it's a cultural thing and that the Chinese just don't take as much pride in outer presentation as we expect them to.  Though that being said, with brand-name gear, we pay a lot more money than you think for the shiny box and nice packaging. Whenever I see someone buy something like a printer for their computer, and immediately throw out the box, I want to say "Do you realise you just threw away $20-30?".  I agree though, Kingwa needs to do better, but I'm at a loss how to describe what "better" is without being able to show some good examples and it would probably result in his prices going up.


----------



## nigeljames

My Roc arrived recently. Very well packaged and in perfect unblemised condition. Audio-gd must be improving.


----------



## BenBau

Currawong, I don't think there is anything wrong with the packaging ("Make in China"  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





).
  Black anodized aluminum is very scratch sensitive. I think it is a hygienic issue. On the packaging line they should vacuum clean more frequently. I expect there are sharp filings lying all over the place. On the inside of all my Audio-gd stuff there's a lot of filings!


----------



## Priyajeet

Yeah, the Made In China part doesnt bother me, hell everything is made in china. Just that if anything goes wrong, I just dont want to get in to the hassel of shipping back and forth specially if there can be customs issues.
   
  However I got a word from the USA distributer, that solves the issue 
   
   
   
  Quote: 





>


 


> Here is the link for the Phoenix:
> 
> http://store.pacificvalve.us/agdphx.html
> 
> ...


----------



## les_garten

Quote: 





priyajeet said:


> Yeah, the Made In China part doesnt bother me, hell everything is made in china. Just that if anything goes wrong, I just dont want to get in to the hassel of shipping back and forth specially if there can be customs issues.
> 
> However I got a word from the USA distributer, that solves the issue


 


>


 



 That looks like a great deal to me. Does PV add anything for shipping, it doesn't appear that they do.  So it would cost more to buy it direct from A-GD than from PV.


----------



## Priyajeet

Nah, final cart price was 1300.
  Just ordered one for myself


----------



## les_garten

Quote: 





priyajeet said:


> Nah, final cart price was 1300.
> Just ordered one for myself


 
   
  That's Killer then!  Congrats!


----------



## tim3320070

That is a good deal. I wonder if they would service my AGD gear even though I bought it direct- they are less than an hour away from me.


----------



## Priyajeet

there site does mention that they don't service parts thats are directly bought from china.
http://www.pacificvalve.us/Service2.html
  But I guess you can try asking them.


----------



## Skylab

tim3320070 said:


> That is a good deal. I wonder if they would service my AGD gear even though I bought it direct- they are less than an hour away from me.







 I highly doubt they would. They are very good to do business with, but they do not have an actual store or shop. I've bought a few things from them, and when I have gone to pick it up, it's at a small Mail Box rental type place. That is where you pick up and drop off stuff for them. They don't appear to allow people to visit whatever warehouse or shop they may actually have.


----------



## tim3320070

Okay, got it. Maybe John Van L? You must be familiar with him? Not sure he does electronics but his repair shop looks full of non-speaker gear when I peaked in.


----------



## BenBau

Great news!
   
  After 9 weeks, Kingwa managed to free my Phoenix from the claws of the Chinese customs.


----------



## Priyajeet

grats!


----------



## jc9394

Hi Phoenix owners,
   
  I have few questions for the Phoenix.
   
  1. How is single ended input? Can it output to balanced?
  2. Is it run really hot?
  3. How if pair with HD800, HF-2, and LCD-2?
   
  Thanks...


----------



## Currawong

Quote: 





jc9394 said:


> Hi Phoenix owners,
> 
> I have few questions for the Phoenix.
> 
> ...


 

 1. Fine and yes.  SE input is converted to balanced internally. 
  2. With the newer vented top, I gather it's not quite so hot as my original version.
  3. Very good with all.  I'd see about tweaking the bias voltage inside (requires a voltmeter, tiny screwdriver and a steady hand) to about 17V to make it a bit more lively for best results. The overall presentation is absolutely dead neutral, totally revealing of source quality.  With a high-quality balanced source, you get a very wide soundstage/headstage.  It's arguably a bit _too_ spacious.  With Grados, for example, it's like sitting in the front row of a large concert hall.  The HD-800s with stock cable you might find a tad dry, as, stock at least, they mate best with a slightly warm-of-neutral amp, such as a good tube amp IMO.  With the LCD-2s, it's great for bringing out the detail they are capable of.  It's a rather different presentation to what you get SE with most amps -- the spaciousness and un-colored presentation is not to everyone's tastes.  If everything else in the chain is good, it can work very well with acoustic music.


----------



## jc9394

Well my source is Sony S7700/Mac Book Pro or Bridge (when ever released) > Perfect Wave Dac > WA22 or Phoenix.
   
  I'm connecting to the Balanced to WA22 and wonder if I can connect the SE to Phoenix or should I swapping XLR cables every time I'm listening to Phoenix. (Is there a good XLR switch?).   I have a Whiplash Audio TWag XLR cable for the HD800 and JH13, stock cable with HF-2 and have not receive the LCD-2 yet.  I'm getting a used Phoenix that is not with the vented top, do I have to concern running to hot or over heat?


----------



## jc9394

Any one tried this XLR switch?
   
  http://www.goldpt.com/sw2x.html


----------



## les_garten

Quote: 





jc9394 said:


> Any one tried this XLR switch?
> 
> http://www.goldpt.com/sw2x.html


 


 I would definitely go this route before I would send SE to the Phoenix.


----------



## jc9394

les_garten said:


> I would definitely go this route before I would send SE to the Phoenix.







 That is what I'm thinking too but wonder is there any degradation at all, I would assume a little but should not be noticeable.


----------



## XXII

The elma switch in the gold point is likely to be better quality than the switch in the Phoenix.
  Quote: 





jc9394 said:


> That is what I'm thinking too but wonder is there any degradation at all, I would assume a little but should not be noticeable.


----------



## punk_guy182

Quote: 





jc9394 said:


> I'm getting a used Phoenix that is not with the vented top, do I have to concern running to hot or over heat?


 

 NOT AT ALL !!!


----------



## Audio-Omega

Is Phoenix on par with RSA Apache and Headamp GS-X ?


----------



## Skylab

It is on par with the Apache, IMO, although that is NOT to say they sound the same.


----------



## jc9394

Quote: 





skylab said:


> It is on par with the Apache, IMO, although that is NOT to say they sound the same.


 

 WOW, good to know.  Really looking forward to my Phoenix...
   
  Do you have a chance to compare the input?  SE vs XLR?  According to the website, it should not be any difference.


----------



## Audio-Omega

Is Phoenix more neutral sounding than Apache ?


----------



## jc9394

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> I'd see about tweaking the bias voltage inside (requires a voltmeter, tiny screwdriver and a steady hand) to about 17V to make it a bit more lively for best results.


 

 Is there an instruction on how to bias the Phoenix?  I have all that but do not know where to begin...


----------



## Currawong

Quote: 





jc9394 said:


> Is there an instruction on how to bias the Phoenix?  I have all that but do not know where to begin...


 

 I posted the picture Kingwa sent me a few pages ago, but here it is again:

   
  I measured against the ground point where the outputs are bottom left and bottom right respectively. Because it's balanced, of course, you are adjusting two points either side. The defaults are +15V and -15V each side.  I'm using +/-17V at the moment for the LCD-2s, but YMMV.


----------



## les_garten

Quote: 





currawong said:


> I posted the picture Kingwa sent me a few pages ago, but here it is again:
> 
> 
> I measured against the ground point where the outputs are bottom left and bottom right respectively. Because it's balanced, of course, you are adjusting two points either side. The defaults are +15V and -15V each side.  I'm using +/-17V at the moment for the LCD-2s, but YMMV.


 
   
   
  Did the Heat Load go up much?  It had to go up some.


----------



## FauDrei

currawong said:


> The defaults are +15V and -15V each side.  I'm using +/-17V at the moment for the LCD-2s, but YMMV.


 







 Errr... Aren't Phoenix's standard bias ±18V?


----------



## Currawong

I checked back, Kingwa said it was ±15V while warming up. If yours measures at ±18V then I'll bet it sounds lively!
   
  Les: Good question, but I have no way of measuring the temperature.


----------



## jc9394

Quote: 





currawong said:


> I posted the picture Kingwa sent me a few pages ago, but here it is again:
> 
> 
> I measured against the ground point where the outputs are bottom left and bottom right respectively. Because it's balanced, of course, you are adjusting two points either side. The defaults are +15V and -15V each side.  I'm using +/-17V at the moment for the LCD-2s, but YMMV.


 

 Thanks, I think I will give it more listening before adjusting the voltage.  So far, it pair very well with HD800.  What is the normal listening level?  I set mine to "99 steps" and I'm usually around 35-45 range using SE input and SE out.  I really need to move this to my main rig and feed it from PWD.


----------



## les_garten

Quote: 





jc9394 said:


> Thanks, I think I will give it more listening before adjusting the voltage.  So far, it pair very well with HD800.  What is the normal listening level?  I set mine to "99 steps" and I'm usually around 35-45 range using SE input and SE out.  I really need to move this to my main rig and feed it from PWD.


 

 With Grados and Denons, I'm in the 25-28 range on the 70 Scale, which is probably the same as you are on the 99 scale.


----------



## les_garten

Quote: 





currawong said:


> I checked back, Kingwa said it was ±15V while warming up. If yours measures at ±18V then I'll bet it sounds lively!
> 
> Les: Good question, but I have no way of measuring the temperature.


 


 I guess you noticed a difference between the settings?
   
  I'f I decide to go this route, I'll check some temps before and after.  Might be interesting.  I don't believe it would be harmful or KW wouldn't have gone there.


----------



## tim3320070

Are dynamics increased changing the voltage? I wouldn't mind a hair of color.


----------



## sokolov91

Quote: 





currawong said:


> I checked back, Kingwa said it was ±15V while warming up. If yours measures at ±18V then I'll bet it sounds lively!
> 
> Les: Good question, but I have no way of measuring the temperature.


 

 Wait, you have to swap resistors to change the sound? or is there a switch?
   
  BTW, how are the LCD-2 sounding balacned with your phoenix? As my bank balance continues to rise my paypal finger is getting awfully itchy for a Ref 7/NFB 7 + Phoenix solution... But the rational part of me, however small, is telling me just to stick with my concerto and NAD cdp 
   
  Have you tried the LCD-2 with many amps?
   
  Thanks!


----------



## sokolov91

Quote: 





skylab said:


> It is on par with the Apache, IMO, although that is NOT to say they sound the same.


 

 Rob, do you have any idea how the phoenix balanced compares to your Leben?
   
  IIRC you said it was roughly 20% better balanced... at this level that kind of improvement is pretty substantial - or thats how I took it. Does this 20% over SE make it close/on par with the leben, or is the leben still "in another league"?
   
  I know you don't have both now, and I don't think you ever had both at the same time, but something from memory would be appreciated!
   
  Thanks


----------



## les_garten

Quote: 





sokolov91 said:


> Wait, you have to swap resistors to change the sound? or is there a switch?
> 
> BTW, how are the LCD-2 sounding balacned with your phoenix? As my bank balance continues to rise my paypal finger is getting awfully itchy for a Ref 7/NFB 7 + Phoenix solution... But the rational part of me, however small, is telling me just to stick with my concerto and NAD cdp
> 
> ...


 


 Those Blue boxes in the PIC are variable resistors.  They adjust via screwdriver.


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





sokolov91 said:


> Rob, do you have any idea how the phoenix balanced compares to your Leben?
> 
> IIRC you said it was roughly 20% better balanced... at this level that kind of improvement is pretty substantial - or thats how I took it. Does this 20% over SE make it close/on par with the leben, or is the leben still "in another league"?
> 
> ...


 

 I really don't think I could comment very effectively on that.  Never had both at once.  I could say the Leben is better, because I liked it better, but given that I never compared them side by side, that would be tough to say with conviction - both are outstanding.  The Leben remains the best sounding headphone amp (for dynamic and planar headphones) that I personally have ever had in my home - again, in my opinion.  But how much better?  Hard to say.  Sorry.


----------



## Currawong

Quote:


les_garten said:


> With Grados and Denons, I'm in the 25-28 range on the 70 Scale, which is probably the same as you are on the 99 scale.


 

 Ouch if that's with the Ref 1 as well, as that would blow my ears out. I listen from about 12-22 depending on my mood, the music and headphones.

  
  Quote: 





tim3320070 said:


> Are dynamics increased changing the voltage? I wouldn't mind a hair of color.


 

 More or less, yes. Kingwa put it to me in an email it was like changing cables -- subtle but noticeable.

  
  Quote: 





sokolov91 said:


> Wait, you have to swap resistors to change the sound? or is there a switch?
> 
> BTW, how are the LCD-2 sounding balacned with your phoenix? As my bank balance continues to rise my paypal finger is getting awfully itchy for a Ref 7/NFB 7 + Phoenix solution... But the rational part of me, however small, is telling me just to stick with my concerto and NAD cdp
> 
> ...


 

 Other than the Stacker II and much lesser amps, I haven't had the chance yet to try much else, but I have a fair idea what will result with different amps anyway.  A Ref 7/Phoenix rig would give you a WIDE soundstage and uncanny experiences such as being able to hear the valves moving on clarinets listening to well-recorded jazz.  Those will be the main differences.  It will make you annoyed at anything less than great recordings.  If you're not a detail junkie, apart from the soundstage difference, it may not be so dramatic an upgrade with a lot of music. It blows everything wide open, a little like the first time shock of hearing a song you've only ever heard on the radio on a hi-fi rig.


----------



## haloxt

With my full-sized but 70 ohm 102dB/mW SA5000 I'm at 02-06 out of 99 on the phoenix.
   
  If anyone plans on using a phoenix with the new full-sized Sony Z1000 with 24 ohm and 106dB/mW, I think you may run into some volume issues. Maybe Audio-gd should add more low volume steps?


----------



## Currawong

The volume steps are all fixed resistors, so it would be easy to re-build it with custom values I imagine.


----------



## lmswjm

My Phoenix measured an average of 17.15 Volts across. 
   
  I e-mailed Audio-GD to find out what the spec is:
   
  I just check the built files, 17V is standard.
  Kingwa


----------



## les_garten

Quote: 





currawong said:


> Quote:
> 
> Ouch if that's with the Ref 1 as well, as that would blow my ears out. I listen from about 12-22 depending on my mood, the music and headphones.


 


 Huh?  Whatdya say!  I can't hear ya?


----------



## vrln

Just ordered a Phoenix! Once I receive it I´ll also be able to give a few impressions on how it works as a pre-amp... Going to hook it to my Genelec monitors / balanced HD 800.


----------



## vrln




----------



## sokolov91

Quote: 





vrln said:


>


 

 But how does she sound!?


----------



## FauDrei

...a very balanced cat's meow?


----------



## vrln

Once it´s been on for an hour, beautiful... Only listened to an hour or so, because I tried swapping cables (XLR vs. ACSS, not sure which one I prefer so far). By far the best Depeche Mode I´ve ever heard  Very smooth, wide 3d soundstage (my favourite!) and lots of air. Sounds neutral, I was expecting it to be more colored due to some comments. It doesn´t sound that far off from my Genelec monitors.
   
  Oh and I´m only using it SE so far, my balanced cables aren´t here yet. Very happy. Next step is the CD7-FV, then my dream Audio-gd rig is complete


----------



## sokolov91

Quote: 





vrln said:


> Once it´s been on for an hour, beautiful... Only listened to an hour or so, because I tried swapping cables (XLR vs. ACSS, not sure which one I prefer so far). By far the best Depeche Mode I´ve ever heard  Very smooth, wide 3d soundstage (my favourite!) and lots of air. Sounds neutral, I was expecting it to be more colored due to some comments. It doesn´t sound that far off from my Genelec monitors.
> 
> Oh and I´m only using it SE so far, my balanced cables aren´t here yet. Very happy. Next step is the CD7-FV, then my dream Audio-gd rig is complete


 


  well isn't that a tease! At least it sounds great in SE too!
   
  I am very interested in your impressions as I plan to buy one in the new few days 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
   
  Which headphones are you planning on running with it?


----------



## vrln

I´m running HD 800, currently with the stock SE cable, but soon with a Zeus Quad22 balanced 4-pin XLR. Will also be using it as a preamplifier for my two small Genelec speakers which is a major reason I decided to go for the Phoenix as I needed both a headphone amp and a good preamp. Fantastic value!


----------



## middachten

What source do you use o drive it with?


----------



## les_garten

My Catz aren't allowed to touch the Volume Control...


----------



## middachten

Quote: 





vrln said:


> I´m running HD 800, currently with the stock SE cable, but soon with a Zeus Quad22 balanced 4-pin XLR. Will also be using it as a preamplifier for my two small Genelec speakers which is a major reason I decided to go for the Phoenix as I needed both a headphone amp and a good preamp. Fantastic value!


 

 My previous post was a bit cryptic, sorry.
  I meant to ask what equipment you use as a source for the Phoenix (DAC, CD player)?


----------



## vrln

Source is Audio gd REF7S, and Little Dot CDP1... I hope to upgrade to CD7FV later this year.


----------



## vrln

First impressions on the hardware after two nights of testing... As for the sound, I will mostly cover it under the REF7 thread. Phoenix is a "wire with gain" amplifier, so it doesn´t really have any particular characteristics except for the famous smoothness.
   
  Positive:
   
  - Heavy, strong build. It is very large, as big as the REF7/1 if the two elements are placed next to eachother. Definately not something I would have on my desk near the PC, unless I had plenty of room (can be a minus for some). All in all, it is very serious amplifier, it is instantly clear that this is no random amp.
   
  - The blue LED lights really suit the look, and look fantastic.
   
  - 70 or 100 steps of volume means no gain switch is required. Especially as it is controlled via ACSS/stepped resistors. Low level detail is better than anything I have ever heard. There is no need to listen loudly in order to get a 3d sound. Every time it clicks you are reminded of how awesome it is.
   
  - Smooth. This cannot be oversaid. There is nothing, nothing in the sound that makes you tired. But it is also not warm like the Violectric V200 I had. It doesn´t make all the music sound the same. I would call the sound signature "relaxed high definition". Depends a lot on the record though, aggressive records still sound aggressive. I would NOT compare the smoothness to the one in the Violectric I previously had. This is closer to my Genelec studio monitors - but without the harshness and "take no prisoners" sound signature. I wish Kingwa would use the word "natural" as the description instead of neutral. I have no idea how it measures, but it sounds like nature itself. 
   
  - Two chassis design allows plenty of options how to place the two.
   
  - The all-aluminum remote control is really classy, a lot nicer than I expected from the pictures.
   
  - The buttons are also aluminum, and have a classy feel to them. 
   
  - Fantastic service from Kingwa, and it arrived in perfect condition.
   
  - As seen in the previous picture, my cat is also fond of this amplifier.
   
  - Doubles as a preamplifier, haven´t tried it that way yet though.
   
  - For night listening, there is a display button on the back.
   
  Negative:
   
  - The data cable is a modified serial cable with a small SPC wire around it, it looks quite cheap. I hope they´d build something that doesn´t look as "DIY".
   
  - Requires an hour or so warm up until it starts sounding good. But at this price, I don´t mind.
   
  - Overall the chassis etc has a DIY feel, but actually it is a DIY product in a way. Personally I actually like the look (you pay for the components and performance, not a fancy chassis). It doesn´t look bad, it just doesn´t draw attention to itself like some high end western hifi products (that also cost A LOT more).
   
  Neutral: 
   
  - It gets quite warm, but I know it would and it doesn´t bother me personally. Some, cats for example, find it pleasant actually.
   
  All in all, very satisfied. I had high expectations, and it has matched them.  
   
  Disclaimer: as for the audio comments, the first impressions were done by listening to Depeche Mode (Violator), Michael Jackson (Dangerous), Leonard Cohen (Best Of) and Shpongle... And only in SE so far, as my balanced cables haven´t arrived.


----------



## middachten

vrln,
  Thanks for this extensive update!
  Interesting to read your attention to the mechanical details. I usually don't pay to much attention to this. But while reading your observations about aluminum buttons it appeared to me that I thought "sounds good...."
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  I guess I do find it important!


----------



## IPodPJ

vrln,
  You better be careful with your cat sitting on top of it.  If the cat's hairs get in the vents, they will cook and let off a nasty smell.  That can't be good for your gear either to have cat hair in there.


----------



## vrln

Agreed... I´ve actually relocated my gear so that the cat can´t lie on top of it anymore


----------



## middachten

i've relocated our cat a long time ago


----------



## BenBau

The Phoenix has landed!
   
  After 14 weeks my Phoenix returned home from China. I almost forgot the way it sounded: beautiful. Also reassuring: no damage!
   
  The cause of my volume problem was a pair of broken controllers in the AMP unit. Kingwa does not understand how that is possible; they should be capable of handling 30V. The short-circuit in my Power unit (from broken pieces of metal from the power connector) killed a power regulator and possibly this caused a voltage peak (my theory).
   
  Anyway, I finally was able to hear my (already broken-in) C1-Masters and B&W 802 Diamonds using the Phoenix as a pre-amp. Sound quality, especially bass and imaging, is simply amazing. It does not get better than this, period. I auditioned the 802D's using a 12000 euro McIntosh amp, but my setup (and room) is so much better.
   
  P.S. I'm not the only one with a Phoenix in my country anymore; congratulations middachten!


----------



## middachten

Sorry to make you feel lonely, but I don't own one (yet)!
  Still considering various options to spend my 13th month wisely


----------



## BenBau

Sorry, I misread. The new proud owner of a fabulous Phoenix is vrln.
   
  O.K. back to "lonely" enjoying my Phoenix then.


----------



## sokolov91

I just ordered a phoenix, as well as a Ref 7... sooooo damned excited.
   
  Whats the average delivery time? I did get some mods done to my ref 7 ( got rid of AES in favour of another optical, and only have one RCA in favour of two BNC) so I expect it to be a little longer.
   
  Can't wait to hear how my LCD-2 on this kinda rig.


----------



## SoupRKnowva

Quote: 





sokolov91 said:


> I just ordered a phoenix, as well as a Ref 7... sooooo damned excited.
> 
> Whats the average delivery time? I did get some mods done to my ref 7 ( got rid of AES in favour of another optical, and only have one RCA in favour of two BNC) so I expect it to be a little longer.
> 
> Can't wait to hear how my LCD-2 on this kinda rig.


 

 thats pretty much my dream LCD-2 rig, you'll have to let us all know how amazing it sounds


----------



## audiorapture

what will you do with the Meier Concerto?


----------



## tisb0b

He mentioned in another thread that he was going to sell it. 
  
  Quote: 





audiorapture said:


> what will you do with the Meier Concerto?


----------



## sokolov91

Yeah I will have to sell it because I cannot afford both. I only want to put the add up once I have both amps in my possession. so that I don't have people waiting for their amp to be shipped out.
   
  If anyone wanted dips they could pm me, but it won't be shipped out till the phoenix arrives.


----------



## vrln

Quote: 





sokolov91 said:


> I just ordered a phoenix, as well as a Ref 7... sooooo damned excited.
> 
> Whats the average delivery time? I did get some mods done to my ref 7 ( got rid of AES in favour of another optical, and only have one RCA in favour of two BNC) so I expect it to be a little longer.


 

 My packages from Audio-gd have always arrived in 4 workdays. Suprisingly fast... Congrats on the combo 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Don´t forget to buy the balanced cables for your headphones, apparently the Phoenix sounds a lot (10+ % according to the resident reviewer hero Skylab) better in balanced than SE.


----------



## sokolov91

Quote: 





vrln said:


> My packages from Audio-gd have always arrived in 4 workdays. Suprisingly fast... Congrats on the combo
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Thanks! 
   
  IIRC he said 20% on those balanced DT 880 he reviewed. Maybe he changed it afterwards though... been months since I read the review.
   
  I bought ACSS cables to go between the DAC and the AMP and have asked Audeze to make me a balanced cable for the LCD-2.
   
  Also, I ordered a DIY kit from audio GD to balance my D7000 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I am going to be quite the happy camper when everything is said and done!
   
  Having a DAC should be great convenience wise too. My Xbox 360, and PS3 are run via HDMI to my HDTV, which has optical out. Now I can have, my PC, my Transport, AAAAND my movies/games all having the same pristine sound quality... all without every unplugging my headphones!


----------



## sokolov91

Quote: 





souprknowva said:


> thats pretty much my dream LCD-2 rig, you'll have to let us all know how amazing it sounds


 

  
  Will do! I really hope it is 3000$ worth of amazing though... my Concerto is pretty damned good @ 700$... My CDP on the other hand... well not so much .
   
  Really, I am just happy I finally have a headphone I am so confident/happy with I can sink this amount of money into a source and amp.


----------



## tim3320070

The Phoenix as preamp is really quite something. I am searching for headphones that sounds as good as my speaker rig and have not found it. Spooky real with good recordings (I feel this is the super wide soundstage from the crazy power goodies within that give the "look around" effect). And I have a poor room setup for speakers.
  Impatiently waiting for my Magnum V2 drivers.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote: 





sokolov91 said:


> Will do! I really hope it is 3000$ worth of amazing though... my Concerto is pretty damned good @ 700$... My CDP on the other hand... well not so much .
> 
> Really, I am just happy I finally have a headphone I am so confident/happy with I can sink this amount of money into a source and amp.


 


  The LCD-2's + the A-gd TOTL system are a* very good* match. I had the distinct pleasure recently of trying out (for an hour of critical listening) CharlieX's set of LCD-2's with my reference system (MAX modified RE1/Phoenix and a soon to be updated CD7 transport) using the stock balanced cable Audeze makes at a mini meet (held last month)....It was a _relevatory experience_ to my ears...needless to say the only can purchase in my near future (when I can get that 1K together) will be a set of LCD-2's. The combination is IMO, magical...the Phoenix also has loads of headroom left over for driving these cans...The LCD-2's (balanced) are very loud at 32 volume setting (out of 70). The difference in resolution compared to my balanced HD650's is rather marked. I would think an aftermarket cable (likely DIY in my case) may even bring more performance from them. At that same meet I heard the HD800's (SE'd through a Buffalo 32 DAC and an amp I cannot recall) and was left with a case of healthy respect for the latest cans from Sennhieser but not the same level of enjoyment that I had with the LCD-2's...TBH I favor planar/ribbon transducers but only if they outperform the best dynamic counterparts. That being said STAX cans are still the last word in resolution while the LCD-2's,IMO, occupy the ground between the best dynamic types and the best pure ribbon types. I do think the LCD-2's like the HD650/HD800's can scale very well as one upgrades transport, source and amp. In your case your source is already in the SOTA category (for digital) and could be improved further with the addition of the CD7FV transport. A HQ "cyberserver" based transport will actually cost more than the CD7FV for a decent level of storage capacity (although one can opt for a conventional HDD rather than the still expensive SSD drives). The system that Joe sells at Pacific Valve is pretty cool ..have a look http://www.pacificvalve.us/CYIndex.html
   
  I certainly would love to try out Joe's cyberserver and compare it against the A-gd transport....I wonder if Joe has a review sample ? Back to the topic at hand...
   
  My advise is to let the new gear (congrats on the fine choices BTW) run in for at least 3 weeks before beginning to take notes on what you hear...the ortho drivers take some time to loosen up (as do planar/ribbon speakers) before they give their all as does the A-gd gear. A min of 450 hours for the A-gd gear while the LCD-2's could require anywhere from 200-400 hours themselves (Magnepan and Eminent Tech both claim 500 hours for their respective designs to fully break in). Check the Audeze thread for any tips in this regard as my suggested times are nothing but an educated guess. Oh, the pair of LCD-2's I listened to at the mini meet only had 50 hours on them so it'll be interesting to hear them again (at the next meet ) to see what fully broken in LCD-2's can achieve with my modified A-gd system.
   
  I look forward to your impressions....the D7000's are also a great match with the A-gd gear (ask Les Garten). You certainly have put together a system that will thunder as well as soar on the slightest of breeze. Be prepared for a big jump in resolution...you are going to love it I'm willing to wager.
   
  Peete.


----------



## les_garten

The D7000s do indeed sound killer with the Phoenix. 
   
  The Phoenix definitely drives the low impedance load easily and they sound effortless thru the Phoenix.


----------



## sokolov91

Quote: 





pricklely peete said:


> The LCD-2's + the A-gd TOTL system are a* very good* match. I had the distinct pleasure recently of trying out (for an hour of critical listening) CharlieX's set of LCD-2's with my reference system (MAX modified RE1/Phoenix and a soon to be updated CD7 transport) using the stock balanced cable Audeze makes at a mini meet (held last month)....It was a _relevatory experience_ to my ears...needless to say the only can purchase in my near future (when I can get that 1K together) will be a set of LCD-2's. The combination is IMO, magical...the Phoenix also has loads of headroom left over for driving these cans...The LCD-2's (balanced) are very loud at 32 volume setting (out of 70). The difference in resolution compared to my balanced HD650's is rather marked. I would think an aftermarket cable (likely DIY in my case) may even bring more performance from them. At that same meet I heard the HD800's (SE'd through a Buffalo 32 DAC and an amp I cannot recall) and was left with a case of healthy respect for the latest cans from Sennhieser but not the same level of enjoyment that I had with the LCD-2's...TBH I favor planar/ribbon transducers but only if they outperform the best dynamic counterparts. That being said STAX cans are still the last word in resolution while the LCD-2's,IMO, occupy the ground between the best dynamic types and the best pure ribbon types. I do think the LCD-2's like the HD650/HD800's can scale very well as one upgrades transport, source and amp. In your case your source is already in the SOTA category (for digital) and could be improved further with the addition of the CD7FV transport. A HQ "cyberserver" based transport will actually cost more than the CD7FV for a decent level of storage capacity (although one can opt for a conventional HDD rather than the still expensive SSD drives). The system that Joe sells at Pacific Valve is pretty cool ..have a look http://www.pacificvalve.us/CYIndex.html
> 
> I certainly would love to try out Joe's cyberserver and compare it against the A-gd transport....I wonder if Joe has a review sample ? Back to the topic at hand...
> 
> ...


 


 Wow! thanks for the huge write up -but I hate you! I hate you for making this wait so incredibly torturous! 
   
  In all seriousness I really hope my impressions match yours. 3.5K (with taxes, conversion, shipping and all) is a car for a student like me... if it is all you say it is, it is money very well spent.
   
  I can't say that I have heard an amp burn in, or my LCD-2 either for that matter,but my Ultrasone Pro 750 sure did seem to. Be it physical or psychoacoustic, I will definitely allow some time for the initial "OMG THIS IS THE GREATEST THING EVER" feelings to wear off before posting... and If they don't wear off, then it truly is great.  Most gear comes and goes for me, but my LCD-2 have been causing my jaw to drop time I put them on. Granted I have only had them for 3 months, but I have since sold 5 pairs of headphones LOL. If the RE-7 and Phoenix are each in this respective "uber" category, I am a lucky man 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
   
  I will be sure to let you know if your win your wager... hope you do haha.
  
  Quote: 





les_garten said:


> The D7000s do indeed sound killer with the Phoenix.
> 
> The Phoenix definitely drives the low impedance load easily and they sound effortless thru the Phoenix.


 

 Thanks for confirming. I was going to sell my D7000 actually and still might, but they are just so sexy and sound so... "live"? like a rock concert or something just real genuine and soulful ...not to mention they are MUCH MUCH lighter than my LCD-2 so I use them while I study. Too bad they don't block more noise though because they really don't isolate much at all.
   
  Do they improve much through balancing? I bought the Audio GD converter DIY kit thing.
   
  Thanks guys!


----------



## les_garten

Hard to quantify the balanced difference.  It basically doubles the output of the amp so it's hard to match the volume and test for this.  There is the psycho-acoustical effect of knowing you are running balanced as well.  But REF 1 >> ACSS >> Phoenix >> Balanced out cured my upgrade-itis!
  
  Quote: 





sokolov91 said:


> Thanks for confirming. I was going to sell my D7000 actually and still might, but they are just so sexy and sound so... "live"? like a rock concert or something just real genuine and soulful ...not to mention they are MUCH MUCH lighter than my LCD-2 so I use them while I study. Too bad they don't block more noise though because they really don't isolate much at all.
> 
> Do they improve much through balancing? I bought the Audio GD converter DIY kit thing.
> 
> Thanks guys!


----------



## sokolov91

Quote: 





les_garten said:


> Hard to quantify the balanced difference.  It basically doubles the output of the amp so it's hard to match the volume and test for this.  There is the psycho-acoustical effect of knowing you are running balanced as well.  But REF 1 >> ACSS >> Phoenix >> Balanced out cured my upgrade-itis!


 


  A very respectable answer. I am hoping for the same haha.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote: 





les_garten said:


> Hard to quantify the balanced difference.  It basically doubles the output of the amp so it's hard to match the volume and test for this.  There is the psycho-acoustical effect of knowing you are running balanced as well.  *But REF 1 >> ACSS >> Phoenix >> Balanced out cured my upgrade-itis!*


 

 Same here 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 although I just _had to find out _what a little DIY lunacy might do for the components...boy am I glad I did 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  
  Quote: 





sokolov91 said:


> A very respectable answer. I am hoping for the same haha.


 


  It's funny with most gear (that I have owned over the years) very few of the units actually required "burn-in" so the perception of such largely depends upon the gear and how it's constructed ( IMO). Without exception the one thing that I have been able to repeat time after time is the "burn in" phenomena that is all to apparent with A-gd gear. It's a quantifiable change and it follows the same pattern every time (sound signature changes and time period for those changes are pretty constant). The consensus settles upon 400 hours or so for the big stuff and 250 hours for the discrete OPA's and smaller entry level gear. The few pieces of kit that I have owned that mentioned "burn-in" in the manuals was required, I actually noticed the changes had to do with large SS amps (with loads of mains filtering capacitance ..upwards of 60K to 180K) and of course planar/ribbon panels which are tight at first (more noticeable in the early stages of break in than their dynamic cone counterparts). Some conventional drivers also require break in. Other pieces of gear I've owned had no real changes at all from the get go (CDP's and DVDP's from 250 to 2.5K). Oddly my Adcom GFP-750 preamp did change after a long burn in (roughly 500 hours IIRC) which was not mentioned in the manual at all...It's a Nelson Pass design that had quite a few HQ large value caps in it (for a preamp) but nothing like A-gd gear (the Phoenix in stock trim has more than most mid fi SS amps for instance at just under 50K uf). I bumped that up with the MAX mod to just under 70K uf. The Adcom had 12K...I doubled it when I rebuilt the preamp (another big mod that worked wonders with that preamp, which is also balanced design but has a unique ability to operate in passive as well as active modes at the flip of a switch).
   
  Anyway the bottom line here is the A-gd gear will give you a very audible yet predictable burn in pattern that you can actually hear ...the biggest changes occur over the first 150 hours of ownership (that actually works out to 250 hours overall since A-gd gives it products,other than DIY partrs/modules a test period of 100 hours before shipment).
   
  I look forward to your impressions 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 and hope your gear arrives quickly !!!
   
  Peete.


----------



## les_garten

I would like to hear your post-mod setup for sure.
  
  Quote: 





pricklely peete said:


> Same here
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## vrln

Quote: 





pricklely peete said:


> Anyway the bottom line here is the A-gd gear will give you a very audible yet predictable burn in pattern that you can actually hear ...the biggest changes occur over the first 150 hours of ownership (that actually works out to 250 hours overall since A-gd gives it products,other than DIY partrs/modules a test period of 100 hours before shipment).


 

 What kind of changes did you experience? My REF7/Phoenix is still clearly under the initial 100 hours, even though I´ve tried to leave it on every night... Maybe some of my initial comments about V5 DSP initially sounding a bit harsh and sibilant was because of that. Last night I was testing ACSS vs XLR and found XLR to be clearly more relaxed and musical vs. the hardcore high fidelity ACSS sound, and suprisingly prefered XLR... Maybe my gear is just acting odd during the burn in period?


----------



## Currawong

The LCD-2/Phoenix/Ref 1 combo is definitely excellent.  The LCD-2s sound too intimate and closed out of the SE amps I've tried. Through the balanced Audio-gd rig, you get a result much more Stax-like, with a nice balance between intimacy and headstage, but with the capability of being seriously punchy.


----------



## volume

would the LCD2 sound nicer balanced or would there be no need to.


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





currawong said:


> The LCD-2/Phoenix/Ref 1 combo is definitely excellent.  The LCD-2s sound too intimate and closed out of the SE amps I've tried. Through the balanced Audio-gd rig, you get a result much more Stax-like, with a nice balance between intimacy and headstage, but with the capability of being seriously punchy.


 




  Quote: 





pricklely peete said:


> The LCD-2's + the A-gd TOTL system are a* very good* match. I had the distinct pleasure recently of trying out (for an hour of critical listening) CharlieX's set of LCD-2's with my reference system (MAX modified RE1/Phoenix and a soon to be updated CD7 transport) using the stock balanced cable Audeze makes at a mini meet (held last month)....It was a _relevatory experience_ to my ears...needless to say the only can purchase in my near future (when I can get that 1K together) will be a set of LCD-2's. The combination is IMO, magical...the Phoenix also has loads of headroom left over for driving these cans...The LCD-2's (balanced) are very loud at 32 volume setting (out of 70). The difference in resolution compared to my balanced HD650's is rather marked. I would think an aftermarket cable (likely DIY in my case) may even bring more performance from them. At that same meet I heard the HD800's (SE'd through a Buffalo 32 DAC and an amp I cannot recall) and was left with a case of healthy respect for the latest cans from Sennhieser but not the same level of enjoyment that I had with the LCD-2's...TBH I favor planar/ribbon transducers but only if they outperform the best dynamic counterparts. That being said STAX cans are still the last word in resolution while the LCD-2's,IMO, occupy the ground between the best dynamic types and the best pure ribbon types. I do think the LCD-2's like the HD650/HD800's can scale very well as one upgrades transport, source and amp. In your case your source is already in the SOTA category (for digital) and could be improved further with the addition of the CD7FV transport. A HQ "cyberserver" based transport will actually cost more than the CD7FV for a decent level of storage capacity (although one can opt for a conventional HDD rather than the still expensive SSD drives). The system that Joe sells at Pacific Valve is pretty cool ..have a look http://www.pacificvalve.us/CYIndex.html
> 
> I certainly would love to try out Joe's cyberserver and compare it against the A-gd transport....I wonder if Joe has a review sample ? Back to the topic at hand...
> 
> ...


 

  
  I didn't need that!!!  I now want badly a Phoenix to go with my paid for REF7 to try my LCD2s on.


----------



## FauDrei

sp wild said:


> I didn't need that!!!  I now want badly a Phoenix to go with my paid for REF7 to try my LCD2s on.


 

 Now, now... breathe deeply and calm down.
   
  Calm now? OK, now log in into your PayPal and send money for Phoenix... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  P.S.
  Peete was sooo right with his Phoenix MAX mods... I nearly completed my Roc MAX (© Pricklely Peete) and the differences are more than subtle.


----------



## badwisdom

Hey guys,
   
  getting a Phoenix soon (and a LCD2 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




), was wondering what this MAX mod was all about, i cant seem to find anything on it....
   
  Cheers
  Xavier


----------



## vrln

It´s Pricklely Peetes set of hardware upgrades for the stock version. Apparently it doesn´t cost that much and results in a nice performance boost. Try sending him a private message 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I´m still on stock Phoenix though. 
   
  Story of the day: Phoenix gets so hot my cat won´t even lie on top of it anymore 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 That´s when it sounds the best too!


----------



## FauDrei

> Originally Posted by *badwisdom* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> ...was wondering what this MAX mod was all about, i cant seem to find anything on it....


 
   
  Just search this thread. Start here.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote: 





vrln said:


> What kind of changes did you experience? My REF7/Phoenix is still clearly under the initial 100 hours, even though I´ve tried to leave it on every night... Maybe some of my initial comments about V5 DSP initially sounding a bit harsh and sibilant was because of that. Last night I was testing ACSS vs XLR and found XLR to be clearly more relaxed and musical vs. the hardcore high fidelity ACSS sound, and suprisingly prefered XLR... Maybe my gear is just acting odd during the burn in period?


 


  From memory the most obvious early traits of the DAC (and the amp to a lesser degree) are as follows......bass is a little light and ill defined (at first thin and diffuse but later on a little full and lose, the mids are wee bit grainy while the treble region can sound a tad strident). These attributes begin to morph as you pass through the first 150 hours with the bass beginning to tighten up and fill out within the first 50 hoiurs , the thin quality now gone and the control of it and the quantity of it begins to level off. The mids refine considerably while the sound staging which was narrow in width and depth begins to expand (in all directions). The treble loses it's strident forward push and smooths out over the next 100 or so hours...additional progression WRT instrument separation, air around those instruments expands as you pass through 250 to 300 hours (roughly speaking). The last 100 hours everything evens out, tightens up, becomes much more refined with the level of detail and the black background becoming very apparent. Dynamic energy that seems limited (or compressed) before now bloom with effortless speed and very natural decay. The smallest detail become readily apparent as you near the end of burn in....I think I've covered 90% of what happens and if I forgotten anything I'm sure others will add there impressions.
   
  Hope that helped a little...
   
  Peete.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote: 





faudrei said:


> Just search this thread. Start here.


 


  I should add that the MAX mod link does not include the previous mods I had already completed (the internal wiring being swapped out for Mundorf silver/gold, head amp and preamp I/O panel and of course the custom ACSS and DC power cables). The Max mod as it now stands consists of the entire scope of what was done (caps,wiring,cables etc). I have to find the link to the wiring mods..... here we are  http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/417553/audio-gd-phoenix-balanced-headphone-amp/2550#post_6187937
   
  How goes the RE1 Max mod FauDrei 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ? BTW thanks for the support and encouragement !
   
  Peete.


----------



## FauDrei

Hi Peete.
   
  I've learned from you to tackle a thing at a time... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'm now finalizing my Roc MAX mod (waiting for some parts to appear) and listening/burning it in. More pronounced micro and macro dynamics and increased detail delicacy are first non-burned-in impressions.
   
  As for RE-1... he, I'm still in planning and parts collecting phase... If everything goes as planned - you'd may be surprised how far your inspiration made me go... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 As you know I'm planning to add a couple of tweaks we talked about as well as a couple of "outrageous" things... We'll see how everything pans out... and, as you are well aware of - getting there is also part of the fun.


----------



## mccarver

Could it be possible to hook up a Reference 7 to a Phoenix AND, at the same time, to a different (Audio-gd) preamp+final line, all with ACSS interconnects?
   
  Thank you!


----------



## sokolov91

Quote: 





mccarver said:


> Could it be possible to hook up a Reference 7 to a Phoenix AND, at the same time, to a different (Audio-gd) preamp+final line, all with ACSS interconnects?
> 
> Thank you!


 


  no like we said a few posts earlier, you would need a moded C3 pre amp which would drive heapdhones via XLR outs, and act as a preamp via ACSS out.
   
  Acss from dac to preamp, then acss from pre amp to power amp. For this you need modded c3.


----------



## les_garten

Might want to ask KW about adding a second ACSS OUT on the REF7.
   
  I'm sure it's doable if ran one at a time, question about driving 2 OUTPUTS.
   
  Things that make you go Hmmmm.....
  
  Quote: 





sokolov91 said:


> no like we said a few posts earlier, you would need a moded C3 pre amp which would drive heapdhones via XLR outs, and act as a preamp via ACSS out.
> 
> Acss from dac to preamp, then acss from pre amp to power amp. For this you need modded c3.


----------



## mccarver

Quote: 





les_garten said:


> Might want to ask KW about adding a second ACSS OUT on the REF7.
> 
> I'm sure it's doable if ran one at a time, question about driving 2 OUTPUTS.
> 
> Things that make you go Hmmmm.....


 

 Of course, I already asked them:
   
_Can the RE-7 be modified with 2 ACSS outputs (and maybe
 no XLR), so that a headphones amp AND a dedicated preamp could
 both be connected via ACSS at the same time?_
   
  Answer:
   
   
_Dear Riccardo,_
_Sorry,the RE-7 can not with 2 ACSS outputs_
_best Regards_
_Edwin_
   
  Now, I don't know if Mr. Kingwa himself has actually been inquired about this, but it looks like no double ACSS out is available on RE7.
  I think I might look at a modded C3 instead, as Sokolov91 suggested, which seems to me a more "futurewise" (is this even a word? ^^) solution.


----------



## sokolov91

Quote: 





mccarver said:


> Of course, I already asked them:
> 
> _Can the RE-7 be modified with 2 ACSS outputs (and maybe
> no XLR), so that a headphones amp AND a dedicated preamp could
> ...


 

 In English the term is "Future Proof" which almost always turns out not to be the case... well with computers anyways .


----------



## mccarver

Quote: 





sokolov91 said:


> no like we said a few posts earlier, you would need a moded C3 pre amp which would drive heapdhones via XLR outs, and act as a preamp via ACSS out.
> 
> Acss from dac to preamp, then acss from pre amp to power amp. For this you need modded c3.


 


  I'm sorry I can't find the post you are talking about, so excuse my probably obvious question: since C3 already has 3 pins XLR out, what kind of modification would it require? I suppose that a traditional 1/4" headphone jack output is out of discussion here, but couldn't it drive balanced headphones just as it is?
   
  I'm also pretty OT here, sorry.


----------



## sokolov91

Quote: 





mccarver said:


> I'm sorry I can't find the post you are talking about, so excuse my probably obvious question: since C3 already has 3 pins XLR out, what kind of modification would it require? I suppose that a traditional 1/4" headphone jack output is out of discussion here, but couldn't it drive balanced headphones just as it is?
> 
> I'm also pretty OT here, sorry.


 

 no my apologies. It would seem the same topic came up in two separate threads that I was viewing. This being phoenix/pre-amp thread I assumed it came up here. Sorry!
   
  The c3 would have the voltage gain modules swapped IIRC and you would use the XLR outs because the metal casing is too thick for them to easily modify... so they would no add a 1/4 jack for SE headphones.
   
  That was you give up XLR pre amp output to function as a head amp and use ACSS to your pre amp. Both will be open at the same time though.
   
  It might drive headphones just as it is, but really the "mod" is a very simple one that can be reversed by you at your house if you buy extra modules.


----------



## mccarver

Quote: 





sokolov91 said:


> no my apologies. It would seem the same topic came up in two separate threads that I was viewing. This being phoenix/pre-amp thread I assumed it came up here. Sorry!
> 
> The c3 would have the voltage gain modules swapped IIRC and you would use the XLR outs because the metal casing is too thick for them to easily modify... so they would no add a 1/4 jack for SE headphones.
> 
> ...


 


  Thank you for your answer, but I didn't really get what the mod is supposed to do. Could you please point me to the thread where you were discussing this? So I can stop being off topic in Phoenix thread.. Many thanks.


----------



## les_garten

Ahh, that's too bad.
   
  Seemed like a good idea...
  
  Quote: 





mccarver said:


> Of course, I already asked them:
> 
> _Can the RE-7 be modified with 2 ACSS outputs (and maybe
> no XLR), so that a headphones amp AND a dedicated preamp could
> ...


----------



## sokolov91

Well the phoenix arrived today! Sadly without the accompanying Ref - 7 but oh well.
   
  I can't get over how much better it looks in person... it just screams hi - fi. I am pervert and have already taken off the top plates on both cases to take a look at the goods. Those photos on the audio GD website do no justice to any part of the amp.
   
  The amp was so cold when it arrives I let it warm up at room temperature for an hour with the tops off for fear of water condensing and frying the amp!
   
   
  My source right now is just a low tier oppo universal player. Just in SE alone it sounds better than my concerto. To be fair this is just from memory. The bass seems like it is less present, but the highs seem louder and better defined... so far the biggest difference is just (and I am going to hate my self for using words like this) sense of space and soundstage. Lots of room to breath, VERY dynamic. Decay is really great too. But again this is just like 30 mins in.
   
  I am even more excited now to receive the Ref - 7 and start using ACSS and a fully balanced system chain!!
   
  The only issue I have is that with the 70 scale volume 18 is probably the highest I would go, whereas 10 is comfortable with my LCD-2.  I am hoping balancing is not going to make the thing too damned loud!


----------



## les_garten

Balancing makes a huge difference. You'll most likely have to use the 99 scale
   
  Congratulations!
   
   
   
  Quote: 





sokolov91 said:


> Well the phoenix arrived today! Sadly without the accompanying Ref - 7 but oh well.
> 
> I can't get over how much better it looks in person... it just screams hi - fi. I am pervert and have already taken off the top plates on both cases to take a look at the goods. Those photos on the audio GD website do no justice to any part of the amp.
> 
> ...


----------



## sokolov91

Quote: 





les_garten said:


> Balancing makes a huge difference. You'll most likely have to use the 99 scale
> 
> Congratulations!


 

 what do you listen to your D7000 at just out of curiosity? are they balanced?


----------



## nigeljames

sokolov91 congrats on your new amp.
  I have the Roc and can confirm it sounds good with the LCD's.
  Only had the chance to run it S/E'ed waiting for a balanced cable to arrive.


----------



## sokolov91

Quote: 





nigeljames said:


> sokolov91 congrats on your new amp.
> I have the Roc and can confirm it sounds good with the LCD's.
> Only had the chance to run it S/E'ed waiting for a balanced cable to arrive.


 

 Thanks and same haha! My balanced cable is due to be here on Wednesday but SE so far has been impressive enough.
   
  Which one did you get? I got mine from Aude'ze because I didn't want to spend a gazillion dollars.


----------



## sokolov91

Well my D7000 might have to go... the sound great but at 15/99 they are already getting pretty loud. Not to mention they are damned bright on the phoenix.
   
  Is this abnormal? maybe my oppo is an overly hot source?


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





sokolov91 said:


> Well my D7000 might have to go... the sound great but at 15/99 they are already getting pretty loud. Not to mention they are damned bright on the phoenix.
> 
> Is this abnormal? maybe my oppo is an overly hot source?


 


  Congragulations on the new amp and I am taking care of your old one. Could be the oppo may be bright not sure never heard one. Well looks like your D7000 is off to the FS forum but I felt with the LCD2 no need for the Denon.


----------



## les_garten

Quote: 





sokolov91 said:


> what do you listen to your D7000 at just out of curiosity? are they balanced?


 


 My D5000s are balanced.  For LOUD listening, 18-22.  I listen loud but short periods.
   
  Quote: 





			
				sokolov91 said:
			
		

> /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Well my D7000 might have to go... the sound great but at 15/99 they are already getting pretty loud. Not to mention they are damned bright on the phoenix.
> 
> Is this abnormal? maybe my oppo is an overly hot source?


 
   
  Don't get hung up on the numbers.  Remember, a lot of these expensive stepped attenuators have 23 steps and those poor souls can only use 7-10 of them at most usually at most.   So if you can always hit the correct step with the Phoenix, who cares what number it is.  The problem with 23 steps total, is one is too loud and one is too soft often times.  You've got 99 steps!
   
  Don't jump to any conclusions about the Tone signature till you get some tome on it.
   
  However, I'm thinking about liquidating a few canz to get the LCD-2s with one being the D5000, since it seems it might be redundant.


----------



## nigeljames

Quote: 





sokolov91 said:


> Thanks and same haha! My balanced cable is due to be here on Wednesday but SE so far has been impressive enough.
> 
> Which one did you get? I got mine from Aude'ze because I didn't want to spend a gazillion dollars.


 

 I ordered the Whiplash Audio TWAG Silver cable with 4 pin XLR. I like Silver!
  So it should improve the LCD's on my Woo6se as well


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





sokolov91 said:


> Well my D7000 might have to go... the sound great but at 15/99 they are already getting pretty loud. Not to mention they are damned bright on the phoenix.
> 
> Is this abnormal? maybe my oppo is an overly hot source?


 


  No real conclusions can be made without the REF7 goings ACSS into the Phoenix, I think?


----------



## .Sup

Are there any photos in this thread or do I have to go trough all 200 pages?


----------



## reiserFS

Did anyone compare the Phoenix with the Little Dot MK VI?


----------



## les_garten

There are Photos on the website.
   
   
  Quote: 





.sup said:


> Are there any photos in this thread or do I have to go trough all 200 pages?


----------



## sokolov91

Quote: 





.sup said:


> Are there any photos in this thread or do I have to go trough all 200 pages?


 


  When my Ref - 7 arrives I will have a playboy shoot and post it here. Should be here tomorrow or Wednesday.


----------



## sokolov91

Quote: 





sp wild said:


> No real conclusions can be made without the REF7 goings ACSS into the Phoenix, I think?


 

 Who knows, but I would be VERY grateful if the Ref - 7 via ACSS is quieter than my oppo via RCA but somehow I don't think this will be the case...
   
  But as Les said, it doesn't really matter as long as I have enough useable steps.


----------



## .Sup

Quote: 





sokolov91 said:


> When my Ref - 7 arrives I will have a playboy shoot and post it here. Should be here tomorrow or Wednesday.


 


  thanks, much appreciated sokolov


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





frank i said:


> Well looks like your D7000 is off to the FS forum but I felt with the LCD2 no need for the Denon.


 

  
  Agreed Frank...if they isolated worth a darn, then I could justify still owning the Denons...but they didn't.


----------



## sokolov91

Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> Agreed Frank...if they isolated worth a darn, then I could justify still owning the Denons...but they didn't.


 

 Yeah ahaha that whole "best closed" headphone thing really only matters if they actually block out noise and warrant being closed. But I still like them a lot and can spare the cash, so I will take the time to wait for everything to arrive and test them properly. 
   
  Not that they actually are or aren't "the best" closed headphone.


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





sokolov91 said:


> Not that they actually are or aren't "the best" closed headphone.


 

 They are certainly "technically" one of the best closed headphones one can own. But if you take isolation/noise leakage into account, they do fall from that lofty perch.
   
  Sonically (and isolation wise), I do prefer the Edition 8s by a reasonable margin.


----------



## sokolov91

Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> They are certainly "technically" one of the best closed headphones one can own. But if you take isolation/noise leakage into account, they do fall from that lofty perch.
> 
> Sonically (and isolation wise), I do prefer the Edition 8s by a reasonable margin.


 

 Yep! I agree... would very much like to hear the E8 as I am a fan of ultrasone... just my wallet is not a fan of them .
   
  I hope I can get the combo I have now to work out with the D7000 as I like their sound sig and comfort levels... not to mention the sexy looks... but they sounded very bright and very loud off the phoenix.. balancing will add more gain and well that is a no go. I am hoping the Ref - 7 won't be as loud via ACSS, but only time will tell.


----------



## sokolov91

Well I reterminated my D7000 and so far I am REALLY liking what I am hearing... very impressed. Will report back back after work.


----------



## sokolov91

Could be just the volume, but running from an SE source, the lack of bass I was disappointed by seems to be back in spades with the balancing.
   
  FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU- now I have to go to work.


----------



## vrln

What kind of volume levels are you guys using with ACSS + balanced mode? I´m just wondering how I compare... I know this topic has already been discussed here, but this thread is now too long to be browsable anymore. Depending on the album, I´m usually at anything from 5 to ~20, and on albums really high on dynamic range even higher.


----------



## haloxt

Headphones can be very variable when it comes to sensitivity, and some high sensitivity ones are above the comfortable listening level of unmodified phoenix+balanced input+balanced output, especially when playing loud pop music.
   
  For me, ~3/99 average and ~10/99 steps max, with my three main headphones with these specs.
   
  70 ohm, 102dB/mW
  30 ohm, 96dB/mW
  16 ohm, 94dB/mW
   
  For my omd-15 speakers and fbi-500, ~4/80 average and ~13/80 steps max.


----------



## Currawong

I only use 70 steps.
  Grados: 9-15
  LCD-2s, HD-800s: 14-23
  This using a Mac with optical output at max. volume (the only option).


----------



## sokolov91

Quote: 





currawong said:


> I only use 70 steps.
> Grados: 9-15
> LCD-2s, HD-800s: 14-23
> This using a Mac with optical output at max. volume (the only option).


 

 Yeah I was a little concerned about the volume, but like les said: having 99 steps is way better than 24... LOL
   
  There is more than enough room for adjustment so I am happy... even if I will never reach 30/70 let at lone 55/99 or something like that.
   
  How hot does your PSU box get? Mine is like 40 degrees c on the outside near the display. It has been running for about 9 hours.
   
  Balancing even on a SE source really has been great for soundstage and imaging. I am very happy


----------



## Currawong

I have the original closed case so mine gets very hot.


----------



## sokolov91

Quote: 





currawong said:


> I have the original closed case so mine gets very hot.


 


  mine is closed too... They updated it with an open one?


----------



## seaice

It is interesting about the volume. I have the volume much lower. I used the 70 scale at first, but I use the 99 scale finally. I had to set the foobar do -16dB to reach volume settings about 10 on the 99 scale. Is there anything odd in my system or with my ears? (Notebook (foobar, kernel streaming) > Audio-GD Digital Interface (or M2tech Hiface) > BNC cable > A-G Ref. 1 > ACSS cable > Phoenix > Balanced HD800)


----------



## Currawong

Quote: 





sokolov91 said:


> mine is closed too... They updated it with an open one?


 

 There was a lot of silliness over how warm they get, so they were sold with a vented case at some point.   They are supposed to get very warm.


----------



## punk_guy182

Quote: 





currawong said:


> There was a lot of silliness over how warm they get, so they were sold with a vented case at some point.


 

 One word: IPODPJ !!!


----------



## sokolov91

Well can't really say whats going on, but everything seems to be sounding better these past few days. Seemingly more clarity, ease, and even more bass... Seems like something "clicked" or fell into "place" all of a sudden... I am also very relaxed and in a very quiet environment. Whatever. Doesn't matter what is causing the perceive increase of SQ, but I am certainly digging it... VERY much so.
   
  I do think a lot of it has to do with getting the "it will be so much better when the Ref - 7 arrives!" out of my mind that I am able to truly enjoy and appreciate this amp... truly world class, and worth every penny.
   
  Build quality and looks are beyond measure, and well the sound is revelatory. From my lowly NAD 525BEE RCA -> 4pin xlr -> LCD-2 music finally sounds like... well music. Really hard to describe without going into a mumbo jumbo freeforall of meaningless (to people other than me) metaphors and verbage... and I would HATE to sound like some lunatic at 6 moons but:
   
  The sound has more independence, but more linearity and continuity at the same time. That is, the micro detail has increased, but so has the macro. Things no longer fight for attention - they fall into place. Nothing sounds like it is being forced, or pushed too hard... it just flows.
   
  ill kick myself in the butt haha but I am going through some old CD's and there is just a lot of magic I remember hearing from my childhood... before I got heavy into hi-fi and obsessing about SQ... when music was simply for the joy of listening to it, and not also about "chasing the dragon (perfect rig)". The quality is so high I can just forget about everything, hit play... and the crazy OCD "if only I had this, I need more money for that, blah blah blah" part of the audiophile that gets in the way has been quelled and I am left with only the very experienced listening and appreciating parts... very harmonious to say the least.
   
  I wan't my ref 7 to get here, but at the same time... I know that I will just open more doors - like getting true 75 ohms coax, wondering about transport etc... hopefully non of that will happen and I can continue on the way I am now because I am truly happy with this product. Very, very please.
   
  A testament to the validity of this post is I still very much am a skeptic for lots in audio, and I have not exactly owned crap before now... I am genuinely, and honestly in awe. Still doesn't mean I can A/B all this hahaha ;P but hey, I am in heaven.
   
  If you are on the fence for a phoenix, do yourself a favour and pull the trigger.


----------



## K3cT

I've heard reports that the Phoenix is soft-sounding in the treble area. What do you guys think about this? I really would like to compare this to the β22 if I have the opportunity.


----------



## sokolov91

Quote: 





k3ct said:


> I've heard reports that the Phoenix is soft-sounding in the treble area. What do you guys think about this? I really would like to compare this to the β22 if I have the opportunity.


 


  not at all to my ears.


----------



## Currawong

Quote: 





k3ct said:


> I've heard reports that the Phoenix is soft-sounding in the treble area. What do you guys think about this? I really would like to compare this to the β22 if I have the opportunity.


 

 I think I understand where this comes from.  Back when I was comparing my friend's Benchmark DAC 1 to other DACs, it gave the impression of being "bright" and vintage DACs and the Audio-gd gear gave the impression of being "dark".  I found that as I increased the amount of power filtering on gear such as the Benchmark and the Audiovalve RKV amp, where the power supplies aren't as comprehensive as those in the vintage DACs and TOTL Audio-gd gear, the treble became smoother and there was more "black" between notes, with less "haze".  Sorry if this is a lousy description -- think of haze as being a bit like the feeling when listening to an old jazz recording where the piano is a bit vague.  The Audio-gd gear is all focussed around having an excellent power supply, so you get this "black" from the start. The LCD-2s seem, possibly from their sheer speed of response, to emphasise more the impression of the music coming out of complete blackness.


----------



## wild4sound

I have balanced 3 different phones for use with the Phoenix, K 701, Beyer T1 , Victor DX1000 , Silver or Copper wire it does not matter. The Phoenix passes the signal through as well as the source sends it . There is no dark or dull stage , there is vibrance , triangles tinkle as bright little stars, trumpets and cymbals are as bright/brash as the musician intended. 
   
  This is one great amp , you can upgrade around it . Just listening to Linda Rosenthal " Oh ! that Stradivarius " with my DX 1000 bass buddy and the violin just floats delectably and bright amongst triumphant piano and zealous percussion , a very well lit soundscape. Job well done.


----------



## haloxt

Quote: 





k3ct said:


> I've heard reports that the Phoenix is soft-sounding in the treble area. What do you guys think about this? I really would like to compare this to the β22 if I have the opportunity.


 

  
  I think the phoenix can have a wide variety of sounds, it just depends on the other equipment used and recordings. Imo it doesn't draw attention to itself, but it does draw attention to the sound of everything else, even different cables.


----------



## winzzz

im curious too..the b22 is awesome for sure 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



    
  Quote:


k3ct said:


> I've heard reports that the Phoenix is soft-sounding in the treble area. What do you guys think about this? I really would like to compare this to the β22 if I have the opportunity.


----------



## sokolov91

Anyone know if the Ref - 1 and Ref - 7 have the same strength in their ACSS outputs, or if the phoenix every changed it's gain?
   
  I have no idea how anyone could reach 15/70 with a pair of grado via Ref 1  + Phoenix  without absolutely ruining their hearing... unless of course there is some difference in gain or output strength... Is there something wrong with my gear?


----------



## haloxt

With my high sensitivity headphones I listen at volumes 1-8/99 or so. Headphones have a lot of variation in dB/mW, and audio-gd wants to cover the very low sensitivity ones. Using xlr/acss dac to amp increases volume, using balanced headphones increases the volume again. When you have both of these, it can make some headphones (namely iem's) have very limited volume control, or even sound too loud at 1/99 volume.


----------



## sokolov91

Well I went to Radio Shack and bought a spl meter... looks ok... schoche SPL1000. I will probably return it for something better off of ebay.
   
  Anyways, according tot he SPL1000 I get the following readings in* C-Weighting :*
   
  LCD-2:
   
  "Back in Black" AC/DC 10/99 70 dB peak. 20/99 gives me 80 dB peaks - this is very loud. 30/99 gives me 88 dB peaks... this is probably just as loud as a rock concert without earplug...
   
  "No Transitory" Alexisonfire 10/99 i get 74 db peaks. 20/99 gives me 83 db peaks 30/99 gives me 91 dB peaks... the impact is insane but as I type i feel myself going deaf.
   
  "On Call" Kings of Leon 10/99 is 73 dB peaks 20/99 is 83 db peak and 30/99 is 90 dB peaks... holy crap this is loud.
   
  I will do some testing later with my D7000 but I guess I just like listening at low volumes... or that my ears are particularly sensitive lately.
   
  But seriously I have been listening at like 2/99 with my LCD-2 and apparently it has 59 db peaks on "On Call"... I find this really hard to believe but I guess the spl meter doesn't like... or does it >: /
   
  Hard to believe because it is so satisfying at such a low volume... impact, soundstage, detail... everything is there... all at 60 dB? I guess this is good if it is true. I am laughed at amongst my friends for constantly found waring earplugs at clubs, bars, my swim team practices ( I am the coach) , sporting events I attend as a coach, and obviously concerts... but if you don't at concerts you are a tard. Maybe I am just truly accustomed to low volumes.


----------



## Currawong

I've only ever been to one concert in my life and have almost never been to nightclubs or loud venues, so assuming I'd get much the same result, I'm glad to know my listening levels are relatively low.


----------



## sokolov91

Continued from above:
   
  D7000:
   
  Back in Black: 1/99 = 63.2 db, 3/99 =  68 db, 5/99 = 70 dB, 10/99 = 79 dB peaks, 20/99 = 86 dB peaks
   
  On call 10/99 = 75 dB peaks,  20/99 = 89 dB peaks. Not even going to test 30/99 way to loud and the highs make 20/99 quickly unbearable
   
  No Transitory 10/99 = 78.9 dB peaks 20/99 = 90 dB peaks
   
   
  if anyone cares haha... more for my own investigation.
   
  could be my spl meter blows though.


----------



## Skylab

sadly, most rock concerts are way, way over 90dB peaks.


----------



## sokolov91

Quote: 





skylab said:


> sadly, most rock concerts are way, way over 90dB peaks.


 


  oh definitely. I meant more like "sounds like a rock concert" before i either put my earplugs in, or lose my hearing temporarily. I mean the people not wearing ear protection already don't hear the music as loud like 15/20 mins into the concert... especially if it is heavy metal.
   
  what is your average listening volume? I have read you type  80dB peaks, but this is very music dependent. Do you perceive 80 as fairly loud?


----------



## les_garten

My Porsche idles at 105 db...


----------



## Skylab

I use an SPL meter to set the level at 80 dB peak, "A" weighted. this is pretty loud, but it also means that most of the time i am listening in the low 70's


----------



## sokolov91

Quote: 





skylab said:


> I use an SPL meter to set the level at 80 dB peak, "A" weighted. this is pretty loud, but it also means that most of the time i am listening in the low 70's


 


  well mine blows and can only function in c weighted... so now it is apples to oranges. I heard A was not the best for music? Better for straight tones, no?


----------



## Skylab

It all depends on the content of the music. "A" weighting takes into account our reduced sensitivity to lower bass. If you use "C" weighting, you will actually be even more conservative in your measurements, because if you set the levels using "C" weighting using music that has reasonable bass content, this will be an overall lower level than you would get using "A" weighting.


----------



## wuwhere

The loudest rock concert I've ever been was with this guitarist from Detroit, the band named after him. It was so loud that I was covering my ears with my fingers yet there were people around me jumping up and down ears uncovered.


----------



## seaice

sokolov91: I have the same "problem" as you. I also use only the lowest volume settings on my Phoenix (typically 2-5) with my fully balanced a-g setup (ntb > DI > Ref1 > Phoenix > balanced HD800). I had to lower the gain setting in foobar2000 to -16dB to reach volume levels between 10-20 on the Phoenix. But I have very sensitive ears in general. When I hear something as approriately loud, majority of people sense it as too silent. I sometimes go to classical orchestral concerts and I must say that my volume levels on the Phoenix are much lower than the volume produced lively at these concerts. I really enjoy low volume listening.


----------



## sokolov91

well its nice to see I am not crazy.
   
  It is certainly much more an issue with the D7000. With the LCD-2 not so much.
   
  I have actually like this more and more. It is great being able to have such a great experience at a low volume.


----------



## dukja

I always use my Phoenix at 70-step setting and there is a reason for that.
   
  In the past, I use DT880/600ohm with it and my volume was about 9/70 for hot recording (high recording level) and about 14~16/70 for classical music, which usually has lower recording level.  My listening SPL is about 70dB in average.
   
  After switching to T1 with Phoenix, I can use 6/70 with hot recording and 12/70 for classical. 
   
  The higher sensitivity of T1 prompt me to switch to 90-step setting for a change (again), but I just can not get used to it.  As IPodPJ mentioned in the past, the SQ of 70- and 90-steps are different.  And he got quite a bit criticizing.   I have that kind of feeling in the past with DT880, but not 100% sure.  Now with T1, the difference is quite clear.  The sound of 90-step sounds softer (slower temporal response) and less impact.  The bass body changes (become loose) and the soundstage is also different.  After switching back and forth, I have to stay at 70-step setting.  It is THAT different.
   
  Just a side note on the Phoenix volume setting (but pretty significant to me).


----------



## sokolov91

Quote: 





dukja said:


> I always use my Phoenix at 70-step setting and there is a reason for that.
> 
> In the past, I use DT880/600ohm with it and my volume was about 9/70 for hot recording (high recording level) and about 14~16/70 for classical music, which usually has lower recording level.  My listening SPL is about 70dB in average.
> 
> ...


 
  Kingwa himself said the 70 steps will be louder at the same as the 99 steps...
   
  They are also passing through the same resistors and etc, no?
   
  I will have to check for myself but I find it very doubtful.
   
  Also, have you volume matched (via a tool) the steps before making these statements?


----------



## dukja

Quote: 





sokolov91 said:


> Kingwa himself said the 70 steps will be louder at the same as the 99 steps...
> 
> They are also passing through the same resistors and etc, no?
> 
> ...


 

 Yes, I did volume matched with pink noise and SPL.  It is the basic and must step for any gear comparison.
   
  And I am very positive that the difference is there.  I DO wish 99-step works for me since I'd like to have more resolution on volume setting, but it just didn't cut it for me.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  This might be just another controversy that has no conclusion.  It is just for whoever feel like to take advantage of it.


----------



## sokolov91

Quote: 





dukja said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Well hey, at least you took the time to volume match before making crazy statements .
   
  Will be neat to check out. Who knows what could be causing this, or if anything is actually caused. But hey, if it sounds better to you, use it!


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote: 





dukja said:


> I always use my Phoenix at 70-step setting and there is a reason for that.
> 
> In the past, I use DT880/600ohm with it and my volume was about 9/70 for hot recording (high recording level) and about 14~16/70 for classical music, which usually has lower recording level.  My listening SPL is about 70dB in average.
> 
> ...


 

 It's okay.  I know I'm not crazy.   People can hear or think what they choose.  Until we see an actual schematic of the audio path pertaining to the 70 and 99 step option, it can't be confirmed either way.
   
  What would be really sad is if we are the only two people that can hear it, and it actually exists, how much can we trust their reviews of other gear?


----------



## Currawong

We asked Kingwa before.  The volume passes through the same resistors regardless of the 70 or 99 volume setting.  For the former, it skips some of the steps.
   
  iPodPJ: Regardless of what you think, if you're still planning to be making amps as part of your business, you can't comment on it any longer.


----------



## sokolov91

Quote: 





currawong said:


> We asked Kingwa before.  The volume passes through the same resistors regardless of the 70 or 99 volume setting.  For the former, it skips some of the steps.
> 
> iPodPJ: Regardless of what you think, if you're still planning to be making amps as part of your business, you can't comment on it any longer.


 

 Probably best for his business he doesn't make statements like this too


----------



## haloxt

I'm trying to experiment with 70 step. One of the first things I did when I got the phoenix was set it to 99 . I won't be volume matching because I'm hovering around 1-4/70 with SA5000 headphones.


----------



## SP Wild

The Paypal has been sent through for this thing. 
   
  Heck I can't even get a single board of the Jaycar amp to match the BCL...so I'm not bothered to bridge them together, what's the point in knowing that it'll be a bottleneck.  Easier to just buy the Phoenix and finally get my darned remote.  I'll place an order for the PSU09 units and see if that'll help these jaycar board open up.
   
  I expect the Phoenix to floor me like the RE7 did.  Then one of these days I'll go all out with one of these B22s and see what's going on...darned it, exposing the truth is expensive.  But fun.


----------



## sokolov91

Quote: 





sp wild said:


> The Paypal has been sent through for this thing.
> 
> Heck I can't even get a single board of the Jaycar amp to match the BCL...so I'm not bothered to bridge them together, what's the point in knowing that it'll be a bottleneck.  Easier to just buy the Phoenix and finally get my darned remote.  I'll place an order for the PSU09 units and see if that'll help these jaycar board open up.
> 
> I expect the Phoenix to floor me like the RE7 did.  Then one of these days I'll go all out with one of these B22s and see what's going on...darned it, exposing the truth is expensive.  But fun.


 

 Personally, I think the Ref - 7 is more impressive than the phoenix if you were to take each on their own (although the phoenix is phenomenal)... but when you combine them together you will probably be upset.
   
  That is right: Upset that you have achieved a world class rig that put all else to shame and that your audio game has come to a halt.  Really, I have nothing left to spend money on really... best measured headphones and best ones to my ears, mixed with a stellar amp -one of the two "best" SS offerings, and a source that knocks your socks off which is arguably without match untill you spend 10k... all running through a proprietary current gain system... damn.
   
  I am not being melodramatic when I say I am upset. I truly amp. I have no interest in purchasing anything else because I know it is superfluous until I spend obscene amounts of cash I just wont have until I am out of school... and even then. Sure I could get a "better" transport, "better" cables, maybe add a few more headphones, get some "better" power gear... but I am a rationalist. I know from now on nothing I buy will make much or any difference. It is a good thing not to have the kind of cash to participate in audiophoolery -and I won't.
   
  Maybe a tube amp in the future, maybe a B22 like you mentioned... maybe an HE-6... but it is all icing on the cake or passion. The actual goal of perfect audio reproduction is over when it comes to headphones. I am sure I will want to try something in the future, but just for the sake of having something new.
   
  There are lots of people who are content with their mid - fi set ups and just constantly tweaking things -buy and selling headphones, amps, and sources. This is a great approach if your goal is to maximize time you can spend auditioning gear and different flavours. However, if your goal is end game sound quality and just one system... you have it. I know I am content knowing I am not blowing large sums of money on cables, or taxes and import duties for new headphones every few weeks. The game is over... but now the fun truly begins: listening. I am glad I gained enough speed to break out of mid-fi orbit and rocket into the stratosphere of audio quality.
   
  Like you said, I am not at the mercy of the recording quality -that is it. Well, that and time to listen.
   
  Have fun waiting


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





sokolov91 said:


> Personally, I think the Ref - 7 is more impressive than the phoenix if you were to take each on their own (although the phoenix is phenomenal)... but when you combine them together you will probably be upset.
> 
> That is right: Upset that you have achieved a world class rig that put all else to shame and that your audio game has come to a halt.  Really, I have nothing left to spend money on really... best measured headphones and best ones to my ears, mixed with a stellar amp -one of the two "best" SS offerings, and a source that knocks your socks off which is arguably without match untill you spend 10k... all running through a proprietary current gain system... damn.
> 
> ...


 

 Glad you have your audio priorities straight in such an early age.  When I was your age...I never related to what I heard playing music to stereo's and as I grew to afford decent speakers amps and CD players, it remained so...always comparing hi-fi to hi-fi.  Then I bought a pair of HD650s because I had the money...I was immediately reminded of how things sounded like in real life, that's when I realised that I had been playing the wrong game with audio.  I was a fan of bookshelf speakers and immediately came to a realisation that bookshelves cannot simulate real life...but they were the most clearest speakers in relation to similar priced full size speakers...but full sized speakers didn't come close either.  That's when I realised why some full-sized speakers cost tonnes...and I went around auditioning heaps expensive full sized speakers, and even then...only the most expensive of all were able simulate real life.
   
  Headphones are the only means of replicating this sort of resolution and frequency response linearity without spending the price of a new car on speaker setups.  You can argue staging...but I am talking about resolution and linearity.  To be honest, I don't expect the jump to Phoenix to be bigger than the jump to Reference 7.  I didn't think the jump to Reference 7 was going to be so huge coming from the Bryston.  That leap was bigger than the jump from the Dacmagic to the Bryston.  That Bryston was $1,200 MORE expensive than the 7!!!
   
  I still remember the jaw dropping sensation when I first put the HD650s on,  this was repeated with the LCD2s and it took time with the Reference 7 (warmup, burn-in?), but last night I had the same sensation.  I am looking forward to hearing what Curra and yourself have been enjoying.  Cheers.
   
  P.S.  Has anyone else had problems getting e-mails to send to Audio-GD?...I can't seem to send e-mail through at times.  I don't know if its my side or their side.


----------



## haloxt

SP Wild, since you seem so surprised by ref 7, I'll warn you right now so you don't get a heart attack later that you will be much more impressed with balanced dac, amp and headphones than you were by just ref 7 running single-ended. I refrained from telling you you haven't heard ref 7 at its best when you kept saying how good it sounded in single-ended mode, but now I can tell you you will soon have a much higher benchmark .
   
  Just keep resending emails every 24 hours, sometimes they miss it for whatever reason.


----------



## regal

Quote: 





haloxt said:


> SP Wild, since you seem so surprised by ref 7, I'll warn you right now so you don't get a heart attack later that you will be much more impressed with balanced dac, amp and headphones than you were by just ref 7 running single-ended. I refrained from telling you you haven't heard ref 7 at its best when you kept saying how good it sounded in single-ended mode, but now I can tell you you will soon have a much higher benchmark .
> 
> Just keep resending emails every 24 hours, sometimes they miss it for whatever reason.


 

 No he hasn't really heard it till he plays it _non-balanced _thru an SET Tube amp.


----------



## sokolov91

My power box part of the Phoenix is like 45 degrees Celsius after maybe 5 hours of play time... is this bad? Should I remove the top cover?
  
 EDIT: For you Americans that is just shy of 1/2 of the boiling temperature of water.


----------



## les_garten

That's what it will run normally.  Takin' the lid off won't really help much.  Make sure there is plenty of breathing room around it.


----------



## FauDrei

sokolov91 said:


> My power box part of the Phoenix is like 45 degrees Celsius after maybe 5 hours of play time... is this bad? Should I remove the top cover?
 
   
  That should be about right.
   
  I'd start worrying if the temperatures go over 55°C.


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





regal said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


  I've heard it through my Cayin HA1A transformer coupled single ended EL84 amplifier.  It has two modes of operation, Ultralinear and SET...I have always preferred the LCD2s in SET, prior to getting the 7.  I have always "kinda" preferred the LCD2s SET amplified over anything else.  The BCL is a technical benchmark for referencing, which is being superceded by the Phoenix.  I enjoy both kinds of presentations...drums only come out accurately via solid state IME, but I can't deny that tubes bring out vocals and guitars more realistically IMO.  The soundstage of the Cayin is far larger than the BCL.
   
  But that reference 7...man, has made my solid state rig sound so smooth and tube like with voices and strings, and the drums are precise as solid state gets - that 7 is DAC of contradictions.  I often ponder how a Woo WA5 300B SET amp will sound...I've never heard a truly hi-end tube amp.

  
  Quote: 





sokolov91 said:


> My power box part of the Phoenix is like 45 degrees Celsius after maybe 5 hours of play time... is this bad? Should I remove the top cover?
> 
> EDIT: For you Americans that is just shy of 1/2 of the boiling temperature of water. 

 When I was living in western Sydney...the temps often climb over 42 degrees C in summer...with a handful of days hitting 46...I don't think there is a concern there at all.


----------



## Currawong

Quote: 





sokolov91 said:


> My power box part of the Phoenix is like 45 degrees Celsius after maybe 5 hours of play time... is this bad? Should I remove the top cover?
> 
> EDIT: For you Americans that is just shy of 1/2 of the boiling temperature of water. 
   
  No, it's fine. It's normal for it to run this hot.
  
   


  Quote: 





regal said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Not quite the same thing, but to the Audiovalve RKV MKII and speakers in near-field it was lovely.


----------



## badwisdom

Just received the Phoenix and cant find a manual.
   
  - ive got two data cables but only one data in and two data outs. How does that work ?
  - how do i change the 70 steps to 99 steps ?
  - is it normal if i get a click every time i change volume level ?
   
  Thanks and cant wait to listen to it.

 Cheers
 Xavier


----------



## sokolov91

Quote: 





badwisdom said:


> Just received the Phoenix and cant find a manual.
> 
> - ive got two data cables but only one data in and two data outs. How does that work ?
> - how do i change the 70 steps to 99 steps ?
> ...


 

 You only need to use one of the data cables. The other one is in case you need to connect the phoenix to another piece of audio GD gear.
   
  You release the Debug button at the back and rotate the right knob for 99 vs 70. You press to set. To set whether or not there is volume memory, you have to again release the debug button and turn the left knob. You cannot do both at the same time.
   
   
  Yes it is normal for the amp to click as you change volume as there are discrete resistors at every step that are being switched - do not worry!


----------



## badwisdom

Cool thanks.
   
  Ive read this comment from a review here:
   
  "The only operational “quirk” of any kind I had is some very slight clicking when using the volume control, as other users reported. But it was very slight. And when using the remote control, there is no clicking when changing volume"
   
  Its weird cause i do get the clicking noise when using the remote.... Are there different Phoenix out there ???
   
  Im also getting static 'pops' every few volume steps which is quite annoying. I only get them when playing music. I also wonder if this is normal/standard operation.
   
  Cheers
  Xavier


----------



## les_garten

Clicking is how relays work.
   
  Don't bring it up again.
   
  The static will go away as the system is worked and breaks in.
  
  Quote: 





badwisdom said:


> Cool thanks.
> 
> Ive read this comment from a review here:
> 
> ...


----------



## badwisdom

Im trying to make sure that my unit hasnt been damaged during the trip from China to France, so anything that seems out of the ordinary for me i will try and find an answer for.
   
  In this case there was a contradiction between the review here on Head-fi and my experience, thats all. Saying "its how relays work" doesnt answer my question at all. 
   
  I hope the static goes away.
   
  Cheers
  Xavier


----------



## les_garten

Here's the reason for the curt reply.
   
  1) Because that's how relays work
  2) You could bother to read this thread.  All discussed here.  Even the static and how it goes away.
   
  Show me a contradiction?
   
  Most responses early in this thread, had you read it, talk about how people thought the relays sounded Cool when they clicked.
  
  Quote: 





badwisdom said:


> Im trying to make sure that my unit hasnt been damaged during the trip from China to France, so anything that seems out of the ordinary for me i will try and find an answer for.
> 
> In this case there was a contradiction between the review here on Head-fi and my experience, thats all. Saying "its how relays work" doesnt answer my question at all.
> 
> ...


----------



## tim3320070

All this info has been covered and all the info you seek in here already or on the AGD website including a manual.


----------



## Currawong

The curt replies are because people spent pages and pages discussing things such as the temperature it runs at, the relay click sound, a mis-print on the original units with the input numbers and everything but how the music sounds with it, so people are a bit tired of that.
   
  The volume is not a regular pot, but a circuit board for each channel with a bunch of resistors and relays, controlled by electronics.  The inputs use a similar system. The purpose of using this system is so that the signal doesn't have to pass through a volume pot and input selector, both of which colour the sound.


----------



## badwisdom

Im up to page 82 out of 200 and i still cant find anything about the static.... (i used the search function but found nothing)
   
  If aynone could point me at the right page or answer my question right out, id be very much appreciated.
   
  Cheers
 Xavier


----------



## badwisdom

Thank you for the info.
   
  Im sorry about my first post, i realize i should have searched more, but i was so excited about finally receiving it that i didnt take the time.
   
  Im still at a loss to answer the static, but i guess will continue reading the thread...
   
  Cheers
 Xavier


----------



## sokolov91

Don't bother reading because it isn't going to change the fact that it will happen... it is not bad, and happens in all stepped attenuators...
   
  So whether you understand the technical side or not, it will happen, and is not bad, even if it bothers you.


----------



## FauDrei

Try searching the thread with keywords "click" or "clicking".


----------



## sokolov91

Just wondering : is it safe to run both the SE and 4 pin connection at the same time?


----------



## seaice

Quote: 





currawong said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I agree, nevertheless, it can be improved with a power conditioner yet. I was delivered PS Audio Power Plant Premier several days ago. I have connected the whole a-g rig (DI > Ref1 > Phoenix) to it and the result is very pleasant. There is an obvious sound difference with the PPP: Sound is perceivably better - cleaner and more natural - and it is very obvious in the treble area. The difference is not small! I would recommend to try some power conditioner for a-g setups, as this can really improve SQ.


----------



## dukja

Kingwa used to reply that it is ok to do so.  But he also seems to indicate that there might be some (very little?) SQ degradation due to feeding some RF noise(?) back to balanced output.
   
  But it should do no harm and I did that for headphone comparison.  You might need to change volume though.
  
  Quote: 





sokolov91 said:


> Just wondering : is it safe to run both the SE and 4 pin connection at the same time?


----------



## seaice

As discussed before, some of us use the lowest volume settings with the Phoenix (1-5 and suchlike). But the overall volume in my system suddenly changed: Phoenix now plays relatively silent (my setting is 20 at the moment, that is a huge step from my long-term proved 1-5). I have made three changes in my setup:
  1. I have installed the v.5 board into Ref One.
  2. I use notebook as a source, there was some automatic win update.
  3. I moved my setup half a meter.
   
  One of this changes could have an impact on the volume. Is there someone with a similar experience, i.e. dramatic and sudden volume change of Phoenix or Ref One? SQ is not affected.


----------



## sokolov91

Quote: 





seaice said:


> As discussed before, some of us use the lowest volume settings with the Phoenix (1-5 and suchlike). But the overall volume in my system suddenly changed: Phoenix now plays relatively silent (my setting is 20 at the moment, that is a huge step from my long-term proved 1-5). I have made three changes in my setup:
> 1. I have installed the v.5 board into Ref One.
> 2. I use notebook as a source, there was some automatic win update.
> 3. I moved my setup half a meter.
> ...


 
  Is the PC volume any different?
  
   
  I don't think you are dumb but I don't see what would make such a huge difference... FWIW my system is just as loud but I love it even more . Sounds amazing at the steps I have available so no worries here.
   
  It is possible you have a cold and your sinuses are congested and your eustachien tubes are fd. That is usually up with my when I noticed my hearing is getting weird.


----------



## seaice

PC volume is identical as before, I checked this  The situation is very strange to me, but I rather enjoy it. I hope I am healthy, but who knows


----------



## sokolov91

Quote: 





seaice said:


> PC volume is identical as before, I checked this  The situation is very strange to me, but I rather enjoy it. I hope I am healthy, but who knows


 


  OH! do you have both SE and XLR/ACSS inputs from your Ref - 7 plugged in to your phoenix? maybe you are on SE


----------



## seaice

Thanks! There is only balanced (ACSS) connection between the Phoenix and the DAC at the moment. Everything is identical with the previous state (nothing added, nothing removed). I will try to reconnect the whole setup to be sure that nothing has become loose.


----------



## seaice

Problem solved after disconnecting and reconnecting all cables. The volume is as high as before. Thanks again! If possible, my previous posts can be deleted.


----------



## haloxt

nm. Hmm that's a little scary . Never raise volume so high when you listen at 1-5, find out the problem first.


----------



## seaice

yes, finally my retardance, sokolov91 was right 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  By the way, has someone tried a power conditioner with the Phoenix? I have very good results with PS Audio Power Plant Premier powering my A-gd rig. Sound is cleaner, extended on both sides (especially in the treble area), more detailed... I am curious if there is someone with similar experience.


----------



## vrln

EDIT: Phoenix was 100% fine, problem was faulty DC cable between the two chassis. It´s completely silent even with supersensitive IEM´s like Shure 530!


----------



## SP Wild

Still waiting for my unit to arrive...
   
  But I have a question for Phoenix users that use it as a pre-amp...how do I go about connecting a LFE driver to the Phoenix.  If I am not mistaken the balanced outs can not be connected concurrently with the single ended output without signal without interfering with the balanced outputs.  That is the positive outputs will drive half the balanced load and at the same time the SE load...whilst the negative output has only one load.
   
  I am planning my speaker system and at the moment, by and large the most significant expense for the moment will be on a quality self powered LFE driver.  I only have medium sized bookshelf speakers at the moment, but I plan my speakers to go as low as possible,...25hz ideal...20hz would be even better, within 1 db.  This will thicken the midrange and tone down some of the brightness issues I have with all bookshelf monitors.  This is killing me...why do quality sub bass drivers cost bloody thousands?


----------



## vrln

Good question... Are you sure it would affect the balanced outputs? I think the Phoenix cuts all other outputs when you press the preamp button. As for the cost, you have very high standards for speakers  Speakers that go to at least 25hz are usually very expensive (20 is really hardcore). I´m willing to settle at around 35-40hz. Personally I´ve found that even via "bright" studio monitors that only go down to ~55hz, there was a lot less brightness than on most dynamic headphones like DT 880 and HD 800, mostly because of the lack of a treble spike.


----------



## dukja

Also going into the detour of using bookshelf monitor (and maybe one day with sub), so I am very interested in the solution of yours.
   
  I also had a big question mark in my mind.  Since both my headphone amps (Phoenix and Decware CSP2+) can be preamp (CSP2+ even have dedicate mono output for sub), I am very curious how their performance level will be as an alternative preamp.  Are they pretty comparative to the dedicate preamp at similar price range, or I was just wishing too much?  By my naive thinking, high quality headphone amp should be also good as a preamp...
   
  Thanks for your experienced input!
  
  Quote: 





sp wild said:


> Still waiting for my unit to arrive...
> 
> But I have a question for Phoenix users that use it as a pre-amp...how do I go about connecting a LFE driver to the Phoenix.  If I am not mistaken the balanced outs can not be connected concurrently with the single ended output without signal without interfering with the balanced outputs.  That is the positive outputs will drive half the balanced load and at the same time the SE load...whilst the negative output has only one load.
> 
> I am planning my speaker system and at the moment, by and large the most significant expense for the moment will be on a quality self powered LFE driver.  I only have medium sized bookshelf speakers at the moment, but I plan my speakers to go as low as possible,...25hz ideal...20hz would be even better, within 1 db.  This will thicken the midrange and tone down some of the brightness issues I have with all bookshelf monitors.  This is killing me...why do quality sub bass drivers cost bloody thousands?


----------



## vrln

I don´t have much experience with standalone preamps, but judging from the construction and specs (relay based volume control, separate PSU, ACSS) it is a great preamp. Some people on Head-Fi have even said the Phoenix is better as a preamp than a headphone amp (even compared it to 2000-3000 dollar western preamps). I´m not sure about that, but if I recall correctly Kingwa did once tell me it´s better than the ~1000 dollar dedicated preamp (which easily competes with western gear over twice the price) they sell, which is very high praise indeed!
   
  So to cut to the point, it´s a fantastic preamp


----------



## dukja

Thanks for the report.  It is nice to hear that!  I think I'll know more when my speak gear coming in.


----------



## punk_guy182

Actually kingwa based the design on his Phoenix head-phone amp from the C3 pre-amp.
  Pricklely Peete has said many times that the Phoenix functions very well and even better in preamp mode.


----------



## SP Wild

Some quick impressions having the Phoenix for a couple of days now.
   
  I tried something different and instead of jumping into straight AB with the Lehmann, I just listened to the Phoenix as it burned in.  I paired it to the Reference 7 in balanced mode and quickly made a pair of 2 metre ACSS cables with cheap four conductor insulated microphone cable from local electronics store...because 1 metre was too short.  For this comparo I fixed the the Bryston BDA-1 dac, I needed to buy a tiny torx bit and it turned out the fuse was blown.  I get to hear the Bryston balanced...it too is a true balanced design...I saw the four symmetrical and tiny SMD full discrete output stages of all the phases and single ended was not summed.
   
  Without an AB to confirm, I suspected a few things about the Phoenix when using my memory of the Lehmann amp.
   
  Perceived Negatives (More to these negatives a later)
  1.  The treble was a bit dark.
  2.  The amp is not as quick as the Lehmann
  3.  The bass was not as impactful or as tight as the Lehmann
   
  Perceived Postives
  1.  Despite being darker it had more detail than the Lehmann
  2.  Staging and seperation and imaging was better than the Lehmann
  3.  Midrange was more realistic
  4.  Overall more organic
   
  I liked how the Phoenix surprised me in that I never thought it would supersede my tube amp.  Everything that I love about tubes, midrange smoothness, soundstaging, imaging and separation was better on the Phoenix.  Better still the Phoenix didn't have that definitive softening of transients that my tube amps have when I AB with the Lehmann.
   
  I have been complaining of a little brightness with my LCD2s when I paired the Reference 7 to the Lehmann amp.  And lately for musical listening...I fell back on my Cayin tube amp in SET operation.  I considered the possibility of a tubed NOS dac...as I have come to enjoy NOS dacs and tubes.  With the Phoenix in the mix....I never felt the need for my tube setup or a NOS dac.  I feel I am "there" with tonality. 
   
  Is this the result of pure class A?  Perhaps its the no opamps, purely discreet output?  Or maybe Kingwa is freakin psychic and new to voice it how I like it...or perhaps he voices things like how I tend to like things?  Still...the Phoenix claims to be a "wire with gain" with utter neutrality...yet the Black cube lays the same claim, but they're polar opposites.
   
  The common perception of "neutrality" and "wire with gain" seems to be one of leaness and analytical in signature...for which the Lehmann BCL would fit this description a little better than the Phoenix.  I felt the Lehmann was more analytical because I heard dramatic differences between the Bryston and Ref 7 dacs...I guess the way the BCL was voiced doubled up on how the Bryston was voiced and the differences were staggering.
   
  Moreover it seems like the Bryston ran more optimally balanced as the number one complaint of an uncontrolled and loose sub bass was not at all noticeable balanced into the Phoenix.  Moreover my complaint the Bryston was too lean in the mids and not realistic enough was nullified by the Phoenixes mid range portrayal.  I would have been 100 percent satisfied with the Bryston and Phoenix combo.  Fortunately the Ref 7 retained an advantage over the Bryston...however that advantage it enjoyed which was so vast with the Lehmann amp was no where near as dramatic as the Phoenix tended to bring the two dacs closer to performance.
   
  Which lead me to suspect that the Lehmann amp must therefore be more resolving than the Phoenix, and so I listed all the negatives as above.  Without a direct comparison...I felt the Lehmann was ahead in key technical benchmarks such as speed, dynamics and clarity.
   
  However when it came time to carry out the actual AB comparisons I was relieved.  Switching from the Phoenix to the Lehmann showed the Lehmanns limitations...it could not resolve the soundstage, detailing and seperation of the midrange as effectively as the Phoenix.  The Phoenix was on par with the speed of the Lehmann, bass was just as dynamic tight and impactful and treble was just as extended and present with equal amplitudes.  In other words bass and treble amplitudes were the same, transients were the same.  Impact and dynamic were actually much better on the Phoenix due to the blacker background and more power.
   
  So the ONLY difference that was notable enough to skew my perceptions was the one of midrange resolution.  The increased data, information or "bandwidth" in the midrange, as a result of more detail, soundstage, imaging and separation data draws your poor bandwidth limited attention span away from the treble and bass and into the mids.  The sensation that it was slower was due entirely to the lesser treble to midrange data ratio.  That is the brighter Lehmann seemed quicker...merely by being brighter and not at all faster.
   
  Having said that, I guess the Lehmann is a lot more capable than most members give it credit for.  However when directly compared to the Phoenix, the information relay to my ears is of a much lower bandwidth than the Phoenix.  The Phoenix relays more data and information to my transducers and I can perceive this extra information easily and most of this information - 90 percent or so of the extra data is coming from the midrange alone.  The key difference is a more realistic stage, separation, layering and imaging...the sound being 3 dimensional and tonally orientated correctly towards the mids. 
   
  My headphone experience has never been more true to life.  I don't see the relevance of tubes and NOS dacs...the Phoenix amp can give me all this with the DS Bryston DAC...and it gets better with the Reference 7 in the mix.  It has dawned on me that "synergy" is more important than "topology".


----------



## vilasn

Nice impressions.
   
  Thanks.
  
  Quote: 





sp wild said:


> Some quick impressions having the Phoenix for a couple of days now.
> 
> I tried something different and instead of jumping into straight AB with the Lehmann, I just listened to the Phoenix as it burned in.  I paired it to the Reference 7 in balanced mode and quickly made a pair of 2 metre ACSS cables with cheap four conductor insulated microphone cable from local electronics store...because 1 metre was too short.  For this comparo I fixed the the Bryston BDA-1 dac, I needed to buy a tiny torx bit and it turned out the fuse was blown.  I get to hear the Bryston balanced...it too is a true balanced design...I saw the four symmetrical and tiny SMD full discrete output stages of all the phases and single ended was not summed.
> 
> ...


----------



## SP Wild

I tried the Phoenix as a pre-amp.  I've never owned a pre-amp before as I've always owned integrateds.  However I developed a love for tube amplification and purchased a tube integrated...which for me is brilliant, I love it.  But I hate the fact that there is no freakin remote I have to move to change volume and inputs.
   
  Enter the Phoenix...whose remote capability was the reason to solve all my "problems".  I max out the volume attenuator of the integrated and volume attenuation and input selection duties is taken over by the Phoenix.
   
  The Phoenix sounds completely transparent to me in this scenario.  Normally any addition of an electronic component can be heard as a slight veiling of the sound.  I could not hear this at all.  My speakers are a pair of Tannoy Mercury M1 Shadow.  I compared directly to the Reference 7 output, where I connect the 7 single ended into one input of the amp and the 7 ACSS to the Phoenix and single ended preamp output to another of the amps input.  I dial the gain on the Phoenix so that it matches the volume of the Reference 7 direct to the amp.  Now all I had to do was change inputs in the amp to listen for differences.
   
  I then connect my HD650s and K701s (my LCD2s are out on loan so the 650s and K701s will do for now) directly to the 4ohm speaker taps of my integrated.  I heard zero differences between the Phoenix as a pre-amp and direct Ref7 direct.  Zilch, nothing, nada.  The Lehmann also has a pre-amp output....but it always sound worse and it always imposes its own signature ontop of the DAC and there is always less clarity than direct from dac.
   
  I then connected the speakers up and I hear a difference.  In favour of the Phoenix.  The sound had better depth and layering via the Phoenix pre-amp out than direct from the Reference 7.  Don't ask me how or why, but that is what I heard.  It defies my experience that extra components are worse for quality.  So I theorise that using ACSS as the transmission line between DAC and Phoenix was the key to its better performance than DAC direct to amp.  Perhaps the PCM1704 current stream is undisturbed all the way to the Phoenix, whereby the Phoenix is a more capable IV convertor than the IV convertor in the DAC, which would be required at dac level when using SE or XLR.
   
  As I understand it the IV conversion using ACSS to Phoenix is carried out right at the very final stages of the volume control....the volume resistors is the IV convertor, the signal is current amplified from DAC chip to amp, and the IV happens only right before signal exit in the final stage of amplifier gain setting set by the resistors/IV/volume control unit.  There is no extra attenuator in the signal, however there is extra signal conditioning and regulation of the current signal in two stages, first the reference 7 with its monster PSU regulation and then further signal conditioning and regulation in the Phoenix...with its monster PSU, all in the PCM1704s native current domain output.
   
  This brings me to wonder about the Wolfson dac chips...they output a voltage signal as its native domain, unlike the PCM1704...................


----------



## haloxt

I tried doing dac9mk3 acss > phoenix xlr > fbi500 (c500 predecessor), and it seemed to sound slightly worse (more full but a little less detail) than dac9mk3 xlr > fbi500. Do you think if I shift the volume around the former setup would sound better than the latter? Just asking for fun , winter is almost over and I won't be using my gear as a room heater soon.


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





haloxt said:


> I tried doing dac9mk3 acss > phoenix xlr > fbi500 (c500 predecessor), and it seemed to sound slightly worse (more full but a little less detail) than dac9mk3 xlr > fbi500. Do you think if I shift the volume around the former setup would sound better than the latter? Just asking for fun , winter is almost over and I won't be using my gear as a room heater soon.


 


 I am using a tube integrated, where there is always a carbon attenuator I cannot remove from the chain.  That and the fact that it is a tube amp and my HD650s and K701s are my least resolving headphones, so all bets are off.  YMMV.
   
  I know, when I get the LCD2 back, I'll do the same experiment.  This time instead of the tube integrated, I'll pipe the Phoenix pre-amp into the Lehmann headamp and compare direct to DAC.  This will give an accurate and definitive assesments.  Stay tuned.


----------



## seaice

Quote: 





haloxt said:


> I tried doing dac9mk3 acss > phoenix xlr > fbi500 (c500 predecessor), and it seemed to sound slightly worse (more full but a little less detail) than dac9mk3 xlr > fbi500. Do you think if I shift the volume around the former setup would sound better than the latter? Just asking for fun , winter is almost over and I won't be using my gear as a room heater soon.


 
   
  This is really interesting. With Tapco s5 studio monitors I liked the Phoenix as preamp more than direct feeding Ref1 > Tapco S5. I currently use Ref1 > Phoenix > A-g C10 > Focal 1007be and I like it. (Of course, balanced Sennheiser HD800 feeded from the Phoenix is better in most aspects, but to be fair, my room acoustics has not been finalized yet...) So, I am happy with the Phoenix as preamp.


----------



## Currawong

Likely impedance matching between components is a factor in these comparisons, as well as the output stages of the different DACs.  I found the Phoenix was less sensitive to what was feeding it.  Likewise, some amps would lose sound quality with the Phoenix in the chain. YMMV.


----------



## reiserFS

That is a excellent impression, thanks SP Wild.
  Quote: 





sp wild said:


> Some quick impressions having the Phoenix for a couple of days now.
> 
> I tried something different and instead of jumping into straight AB with the Lehmann, I just listened to the Phoenix as it burned in.  I paired it to the Reference 7 in balanced mode and quickly made a pair of 2 metre ACSS cables with cheap four conductor insulated microphone cable from local electronics store...because 1 metre was too short.  For this comparo I fixed the the Bryston BDA-1 dac, I needed to buy a tiny torx bit and it turned out the fuse was blown.  I get to hear the Bryston balanced...it too is a true balanced design...I saw the four symmetrical and tiny SMD full discrete output stages of all the phases and single ended was not summed.
> 
> ...


----------



## vrln

Easily one of the most insightful impressions I´ve read here... The Phoenix is indeed a suprisingly good preamp. The design comes straight from his top of the line preamp that has the power supply in another box, the Phoenix is just smaller etc. If I remember correctly Kingwa actually said once to me that the Phoenix outclasses the ~1k Audio-gd preamp (C39). 
   
  Originally I didn´t agree with Skylabs Phoenix review, but now that I´ve heard the Black Cube Linear I can say I agree with the points you raised. It puzzles me how some people think the Audio-gd ACSS line is so clinical. I perceive my rig (even into "hardcore" studio monitors from Genelec) as quite musical and not that ultra-unforgiving. I can admit I´m into an analytical sound though (but not fond of clinical). Suprisingly some have used the words "ruthless and unforgiving" of the musical lineup. Regal felt the two "lines" were the other way round. Who knows...
   
  I´ve once asked Kingwa about tube gear, his reply was something along the lines that there´s no point as he can tweak the sound however he wants with transistors too. The entire Audio-gd house sound is, in my experience, definately not clinical. Even the ACSS line has a nice touch of musicality and tubelike smoothness if you ask me (granted I don´t have much experience on tube sound). As Skylab originally mentioned in his review of the Phoenix, it´s an amp a tube lover could easily live with. I can easily agree that the Phoenix is instantly more organic and far smoother than the Benchmark DAC-1 + Lehmann combo I´ve auditioned for a few hours. The Violectric v200, compared to the Phoenix, was a lot more colored (warm and very musical at the expense of detail, made all music sound the same). Phoenix to me, hits a great halfway point between musicality and supreme detail retrieval, and most importantly it has the best soundstage performance I´ve heard.


----------



## Currawong

It's smooth, I believe, because of the low distortion, not any tonal trickery.  I've observed that, since we are so used to hearing some degree of distortion in the treble, which, with amps and DACs with only basic power supplies comes through as a kind of haze, that when we listen with a rig that has a genuinely "black" (noiseless) background it seems as if the gear is "dark".  I like my rig particularly because I can't hear it -- I hear the music and don't feel like I'm listening to the components.


----------



## SP Wild

I can honestly say, in my opinion, even though the Phoenix bridges the performance of the BDA-1 dac to a very nice and acceptable overall tonality a little closer to that of the Reference 7.  I feel that the  Phoenix magnifies the difference in dynamics and quiet pitch black background that I perceive the Reference 7 has over the BDA-1.
   
  Somehow I feel that the Lehmann's simple PSU did not allow the advantages of the Reference 7s overkill PSU to shine as highly as when I mate the R7 to the Phoenix...if this kind of makes sense?  What I mean to say is that I really understand and appreciate this "black" background phenomena and the massive amount of dynamic headroom that the Audio GD units exhibit when paired together.  It is very obvious when connecting up my other dacs to the Phoenix, the other dacs don't quite match the 7 in this regard.  Yet when I was on the Lehmann amp...the gap was not as noticeable. 
   
  The second thing that is more noticeable, and I believe this might relate to fully balanced operation, is that my balanced dacs going into the Phoenix appear to give me the illusion of a definitive separation of the left and right channels, leading to a more separated sound and less of a centre phantom channel effect, but more depth and greater frontal layering, more precise and stable localisation of instruments and greater width of stage.  I believe some may even find the centre channel a little lacking with better channel separation on some recordings...however I felt the improvements to dimensionality and separation far outweighs any negatives.  My single ended DACs on the other hand, just can't quite match my balanced DAC in this regard.  There does appear to be a better phantom centre channel presence, however it comes at a greater cost of imaging that is a little less precise and more vague, and a sense on congestion in a smaller soundscape with less dimensionality.
   
  These observations have been made with my humble HD650 which I balanced the stock cable to a single 4pin XLR Amphenol branded plug.  The HD650 seems to get the most headtime whenever I do not have access to my LCD2s and FWIW I feel that the HD650s transient response improved very little with the aid of a balanced connection and greater amplification drive, if at all...which is contrary to popular opinion, or my previous SE amps had no problems maximising the HD650s speed.  But I feel I cannot deny the advantages of a balanced setup, from source through to cans.  Perhaps it's the elimination of sharing signal grounds with high voltage mains grounds, perhaps it is the common mode noise rejection capability, perhaps a combination of both?  Regardless, I am enjoying my system balanced and do not regret mutilating all my headphone cables to suit.


----------



## sokolov91

Quote: 





sp wild said:


> I can honestly say, in my opinion, even though the Phoenix bridges the performance of the BDA-1 dac to a very nice and acceptable overall tonality a little closer to that of the Reference 7.  I feel that the  Phoenix magnifies the difference in dynamics and quiet pitch black background that I perceive the Reference 7 has over the BDA-1.
> 
> Somehow I feel that the Lehmann's simple PSU did not allow the advantages of the Reference 7s overkill PSU to shine as highly as when I mate the R7 to the Phoenix...if this kind of makes sense?  What I mean to say is that I really understand and appreciate this "black" background phenomena and the massive amount of dynamic headroom that the Audio GD units exhibit when paired together.  It is very obvious when connecting up my other dacs to the Phoenix, the other dacs don't quite match the 7 in this regard.  Yet when I was on the Lehmann amp...the gap was not as noticeable.
> 
> ...


 

*x2*


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





vrln said:


> Easily one of the most insightful impressions I´ve read here... The Phoenix is indeed a suprisingly good preamp. The design comes straight from his top of the line preamp that has the power supply in another box, the Phoenix is just smaller etc. If I remember correctly Kingwa actually said once to me that the Phoenix outclasses the ~1k Audio-gd preamp (C39).
> 
> Originally I didn´t agree with Skylabs Phoenix review, but now that I´ve heard the Black Cube Linear I can say I agree with the points you raised. It puzzles me how some people think the Audio-gd ACSS line is so clinical. I perceive my rig (even into "hardcore" studio monitors from Genelec) as quite musical and not that ultra-unforgiving. I can admit I´m into an analytical sound though (but not fond of clinical). Suprisingly some have used the words "ruthless and unforgiving" of the musical lineup. Regal felt the two "lines" were the other way round. Who knows...
> 
> I´ve once asked Kingwa about tube gear, his reply was something along the lines that there´s no point as he can tweak the sound however he wants with transistors too. The entire Audio-gd house sound is, in my experience, definately not clinical. Even the ACSS line has a nice touch of musicality and tubelike smoothness if you ask me (granted I don´t have much experience on tube sound). As Skylab originally mentioned in his review of the Phoenix, it´s an amp a tube lover could easily live with. I can easily agree that the Phoenix is instantly more organic and far smoother than the Benchmark DAC-1 + Lehmann combo I´ve auditioned for a few hours. The Violectric v200, compared to the Phoenix, was a lot more colored (warm and very musical at the expense of detail, made all music sound the same). Phoenix to me, hits a great halfway point between musicality and supreme detail retrieval, and most importantly it has the best soundstage performance I´ve heard.


 

 I can kind of understand how some might view the Ref7 as "cold and clinical", I am willing to believe that if these same people were to hear the R7 matched to the Phoenix their opinion would take a 180 degree turn.  Without a doubt, for me, the R7 and the BCL made for a bright pairing...although I personally didn't feel that it was "analytical"...because that midange smoothness and low tone midrange notes were very musical, natural...like in many tube amps.
   
  Mated to the Phoenix...I was almost convinced that Kingwa was adding pleasing harmonics to the signature, because of how the guitar images were able to project forward from the soundscape with a pleasing and musical tone...very much what I had believed to be the exclusive domain of tube technology.  I guess with the Lehmann being the only absolute solid state amp in my collection, my experience is very limited with solid state amplifiers...all my amps have a tube or 7 in the circuit...and it was for these midrange qualities which is absent in the BCL and also my Yamaha HT receiver...but it is all there with the Phoenix.
   
  But I agree with Currawong....all my tube amps are obviously distorted and smeared.  But the Phoenix has precision transients and I can't hear any of this haze or artificial midrange brightness...which I can hear in the Lehmann as well.  It just sounds more like I am listening to real musicians playing music as opposed to a recording of musicians playing music.  As Currawong noted...the music, as the musicians intended, how they would have heard it as they composed it and performed it.  Real music to me, always sounded dead neutral.  I have no reason to argue that the Reference 7 and Phoenix combo is anything other than neutral.


----------



## SP Wild

The Phoenix has seen a lot of use and many hours have accumulated.  As with the Ref7, I believe burn-in affects the performance of this unit.  I feel that with regular use, this amp gains extra clarity and definition, I just confirmed this with an AB of the Lehmann.  This time around the Lehmann did not fare so well with the Phoenix.  There is a definite sense of congestion, less dynamics and a leanness/brightness with less micro details, the best analogy would be as if I used a very crude software upsampling algorithm on a digital signal...but the degradations are more pronounced with the Lehmann. 
   
  I am listening to a an album called Isla Del Sol by Armik, a recording of an acoustic nylon guitar and it sounds incredible through the LCD2s.  Electric guitars really stand out for me, I have never heard them crunch in their distortions so vividly, coming away from the mix with great clarity and edge.  I have always felt my tube amps shine in this department, but the Phoenix has put them to shame.  Every instrument has so much space, texture and microdynamics around them than I am used to in my other amps and all these little extras add up for a reproduction that has come closest to my time playing with my old band like never before.
   
  After exclusive use for many sessions, I could not be happier with this purchase.  All my headphones sound better through this amp.  Even with my infatuation with the novelty and sonics of tube amps I could not come up with anything that my tube amps can accomplish better, with maybe the exception of the human voice.  If I were to take into consideration the retail price of the BCL, it makes more sense to save for the couple hundred more and purchase the Phoenix.  Likewise, had I known about Audio GD before I made my purchases I might have saved a fortune on the long run.  I guess its better late than never and I am happy to be a part of head-fi, for which without I would still be in the wilderness.  I really have little reason to post as often as I used to...for the sake of my wallet this can only be a good thing!


----------



## sokolov91

Quote: 





sp wild said:


> The Phoenix has seen a lot of use and many hours have accumulated.  As with the Ref7, I believe burn-in affects the performance of this unit.  I feel that with regular use, this amp gains extra clarity and definition, I just confirmed this with an AB of the Lehmann.  This time around the Lehmann did not fare so well with the Phoenix.  There is a definite sense of congestion, less dynamics and a leanness/brightness with less micro details, the best analogy would be as if I used a very crude software upsampling algorithm on a digital signal...but the degradations are more pronounced with the Lehmann.
> 
> I am listening to a an album called Isla Del Sol by Armik, a recording of an acoustic nylon guitar and it sounds incredible through the LCD2s.  Electric guitars really stand out for me, I have never heard them crunch in their distortions so vividly, coming away from the mix with great clarity and edge.  I have always felt my tube amps shine in this department, but the Phoenix has put them to shame.  Every instrument has so much space, texture and microdynamics around them than I am used to in my other amps and all these little extras add up for a reproduction that has come closest to my time playing with my old band like never before.
> 
> After exclusive use for many sessions, I could not be happier with this purchase.  All my headphones sound better through this amp.  Even with my infatuation with the novelty and sonics of tube amps I could not come up with anything that my tube amps can accomplish better, with maybe the exception of the human voice.  If I were to take into consideration the retail price of the BCL, it makes more sense to save for the couple hundred more and purchase the Phoenix.  Likewise, had I known about Audio GD before I made my purchases I might have saved a fortune on the long run.  I guess its better late than never and I am happy to be a part of head-fi, for which without I would still be in the wilderness.  I really have little reason to post as often as I used to...for the sake of my wallet this can only be a good thing!


 
  Glad to read you are still enthralled by the combo, Sam!
   
  Yep... Ref - 7 and the Phoenix really are a world class combo. I too am very happy I went all in and got this combo. Saved me tons of money because I no longer have to think about other gear, just headphones.
   
  With sound this good, that impresses you each time you listen, there is no reason to desire anything else. This is a very healthy state of mind for any head-fier .
   
  During my surgery recovery I spend two weeks just listening to music through this combo... couldn't do much else really because I was on heavy narcotics and couldn't move much. But it was by no means torture... being fully relaxed and listening to sound of this quality was an absolute joy. I have never been so lost in the music. Like SP says, the texture, the fine details, spacial cues, dynamics -everything just comes through in spades in this rig.
   
  It is the genuine honesty and purity that impresses too, not some gimmick/colouration that can wow people. Just pure music, the way you always knew it was like but never quite heard it that way.
   
  These and the LCD-2 have been a revelation for me... I really lucked out and got 3 products in a row that just seem to do no wrong, and excel at everything... great luck.
   
  Still wish the phoenix ran cooler for my piece of mind though lol!


----------



## mtntrance

Slightly off topic but I am getting a Phoenix to replace a C2 DAC 19 DSP combo and have LCD-2s on order (have HD650s).  I do not want to ante up for a Ref 7 and with no Ref 5s being available I am trying to decide on whether to get the NFB ES or WM.  I am leaning towards the ES.  Any thoughts or suggestions?  Thanks.


----------



## sokolov91

Quote: 





mtntrance said:


> Slightly off topic but I am getting a Phoenix to replace a C2 DAC 19 DSP combo and have LCD-2s on order (have HD650s).  I do not want to ante up for a Ref 7 and with no Ref 5s being available I am trying to decide on whether to get the NFB ES or WM.  I am leaning towards the ES.  Any thoughts or suggestions?  Thanks.


 


  I am sure both will be stellar options and probably sound exceedingly similar...
   
  Kingwa himself asserts that even the mighty pcm1704 and the ESS are only slightly different to his ears.


----------



## mtntrance

sokolov91 said:


> I am sure both will be stellar options and probably sound exceedingly similar...
> 
> Kingwa himself asserts that even the mighty pcm1704 and the ESS are only slightly different to his ears.





 


I went ahead and e- mailed King-wa and he thought the Wolfson version of the NFB-1 is closer to the Reference series that ES so I will probably go with the WM. I love the DAC 19 so I hope going balanced is worth it.


----------



## dabnips

I got a Phoenix recently and I'm astounded at the difference it makes to the sound. My previous amp was a GS Voyager so maybe the difference shouldn't be that surprising... 
   
  I'm also using it as a preamp to feed some active monitors but when its in headphone mode and the monitors are on, they produce a continuous loud buzz. Does anyone else with a similar setup experience this? Is there any way to stop this happening?
   
  Also, the lid of the PSU section does not have the vents that I have seen mentioned throughout this thread, are these an optional extra?
   
  Apologies if these questions have been answered before, I had a quick search but this thread is huge!


----------



## haloxt

Audio-gd used to have no holes, then there were a lot of customer complaints, then they tested out holes, and found out it does reduce temperature (how much who knows, maybe 1-2 degrees ), then started making certain gear with holes. I suppose they stopped doing the holes, possibly because there wasn't enough of a temperature reduction, or maybe because the holes allow dust in, or maybe they just don't like drilling holes? I wouldn't worry about it too much, it's not like heat can't escape without holes, a lot of heat can emanate from solid aluminum chassis.
   
  Be cool like me and use silent computer fans blowing on your gear , much better way of reducing heat than holes.


----------



## vrln

Phoenix likes it hot. Sounds so good when it´s fully warmed up, not just an hour or two 
   
  dabnibs: is the noise coming from your speakers or from the headphones? I run a similar setup (two Genelec active monitors and I use preamp mode a lot) so I could test if there is anything.


----------



## AustinHorn

dabnips said:


> I got a Phoenix recently and I'm astounded at the difference it makes to the sound. My previous amp was a GS Voyager so maybe the difference shouldn't be that surprising...
> 
> 
> 
> ...





 


i had the exact same experience when going balanced with the Phoenix. If I'd bought it at the very beginning, I could have saved myself a ton of money on amps & cables chasing that "perfect sound". For example, I've never heard my HD650s sound anywhere near as good as they do on my Phoenix balanced. Same goes with my 880 600 ohm Beyers, my K702s, & my HE5LEs. I use my modded Benchmark HDR dac as the front end it makes for a wonderful match. All my cables are SSA brand balanced cables which cost a lot, but are worth it. I do have some nice Cardas balanced cables too & they sound great too, but lack just that extra bit of transparany I get with the SAA cables. But they are cheaper too.

I've always thought of myself as a tube guy, but the Phoenix in balanced mode made me rethink that. I don't own a tube amp that I'd trade the Phoenix for. I'd have to spend a lot more than I did on the Phoenix to possibly equal oor beat the sound I'm now getting. Wow is the term that always comes to my mind when I 1st start listening. I couldn't be happier.


----------



## mtntrance

Quote: 





austinhorn said:


> i had the exact same experience when going balanced with the Phoenix. If I'd bought it at the very beginning, I could have saved myself a ton of money on amps & cables chasing that "perfect sound". For example, I've never heard my HD650s sound anywhere near as good as they do on my Phoenix balanced. Same goes with my 880 600 ohm Beyers, my K702s, & my HE5LEs. I use my modded Benchmark HDR dac as the front end it makes for a wonderful match. All my cables are SSA brand balanced cables which cost a lot, but are worth it. I do have some nice Cardas balanced cables too & they sound great too, but lack just that extra bit of transparany I get with the SAA cables. But they are cheaper too.I've always thought of myself as a tube guy, but the Phoenix in balanced mode made me rethink that. I don't own a tube amp that I'd trade the Phoenix for. I'd have to spend a lot more than I did on the Phoenix to possibly equal oor beat the sound I'm now getting. Wow is the term that always comes to my mind when I 1st start listening. I couldn't be happier.


 

 I am so psyched as I have a Phoenix ordered.  I just hope that a NFB-1 Wolfson DAC doesn't limit the Phoenix too much as compared to the next step up in audio-gd DACs.


----------



## sokolov91

Quote: 





mtntrance said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I think it will sound down right incredible for the cash... no need to worry.
   
  Got to keep diminishing returns in mind at all time with this hobby my friend, other wise you are guaranteed to be unhappy.
   
  NFB-1 and Phoenix are one hell of a rig. Not so many are around here are lucky enough to own rigs of this calibur so I wouldnt complain and just be happy .


----------



## AustinHorn

Ditto on that. 
   
  But I've noticed a bunch of guys who start out on this site who start out cheap though & within a couple of years they have a bad case of "upgradeitis" & end up spending a lot more than they would have if they'd bit the bullet & gone for the gold or in this case the Phoenix right out of the box.  I SAY THAT FROM PERSONAL EXPERIENCE. If I'd just bought the Phoenix, a good DAC like Audio GD makes or in my case my Benchmark HDR & say a balanced HD650,  K702, or 600 ohm 880, & I'd be pretty close tor sonic heaven a lot sooner.  I've yet to hear my new LCD-2 in balanced mode but I'm sure that will be a few steps even closer, but I look forward to getting a balanced cable for it too. Then I may sell a lot of other gear.
   
  I've spent thousands that never ever gave me quite the sound I get from the Phoenix in balanced mode.  I generally think that balanced mode is better anyway, but I prefer the Phoenix to several other balanced amps I've heard & they all cost more than my Phoenix cost me.
   
  Believe me you'll be very happy with your new amp!!!!  It is very special.
  
  Quote: 





sokolov91 said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## dabnips

Yea I'm sure Audio gd have good reason for not including the vents, I was just curious really. I might have to look into your fans idea when the weather heats up!
  
  Quote: 





haloxt said:


> Audio-gd used to have no holes, then there were a lot of customer complaints, then they tested out holes, and found out it does reduce temperature (how much who knows, maybe 1-2 degrees ), then started making certain gear with holes. I suppose they stopped doing the holes, possibly because there wasn't enough of a temperature reduction, or maybe because the holes allow dust in, or maybe they just don't like drilling holes? I wouldn't worry about it too much, it's not like heat can't escape without holes, a lot of heat can emanate from solid aluminum chassis.
> 
> Be cool like me and use silent computer fans blowing on your gear , much better way of reducing heat than holes.


----------



## dabnips

The noise is coming from the speakers when the Phoenix is in headphone mode, the speakers make the same noise when they are turned on but the Phoenix is off.
   
  It's not a massive problem since I can just turn the monitors off when I'm using headphones, but it would be nice if I didn't have to do that.
  
  Quote: 





vrln said:


> Phoenix likes it hot. Sounds so good when it´s fully warmed up, not just an hour or two
> 
> dabnibs: is the noise coming from your speakers or from the headphones? I run a similar setup (two Genelec active monitors and I use preamp mode a lot) so I could test if there is anything.


----------



## les_garten

Quote: 





dabnips said:


> The noise is coming from the speakers when the Phoenix is in headphone mode, the speakers make the same noise when they are turned on but the Phoenix is off.
> 
> It's not a massive problem since I can just turn the monitors off when I'm using headphones, but it would be nice if I didn't have to do that.


 

 Do you have the sound if you disconnect the wires plugged into the Phoenix?  DC the end at the Phoenix, so that it is still connected to the speakers.  If you still have it, then DC the end at the speakers and see what happens.


----------



## dabnips

That was exactly my decision when justifying this to myself, might as well save a little longer and get something high end that I wont feel the need to upgrade (any time soon!)
   
  I'd love to try it with some balanced cans, but don't have any of my own at the moment. I get the impression from some posts in this thread that it's not an insignificant improvement, so I'm looking forward to hearing it.
   
   
  Quote: 





austinhorn said:


> i had the exact same experience when going balanced with the Phoenix. If I'd bought it at the very beginning, I could have saved myself a ton of money on amps & cables chasing that "perfect sound". For example, I've never heard my HD650s sound anywhere near as good as they do on my Phoenix balanced. Same goes with my 880 600 ohm Beyers, my K702s, & my HE5LEs. I use my modded Benchmark HDR dac as the front end it makes for a wonderful match. All my cables are SSA brand balanced cables which cost a lot, but are worth it. I do have some nice Cardas balanced cables too & they sound great too, but lack just that extra bit of transparany I get with the SAA cables. But they are cheaper too.I've always thought of myself as a tube guy, but the Phoenix in balanced mode made me rethink that. I don't own a tube amp that I'd trade the Phoenix for. I'd have to spend a lot more than I did on the Phoenix to possibly equal oor beat the sound I'm now getting. Wow is the term that always comes to my mind when I 1st start listening. I couldn't be happier.


----------



## dabnips

Weird, if I disconnect the cable from the speakers then there's no buzz. But, if I disconnect the cable from the Phoenix then there is a buzz!
   
  Quote: 





les_garten said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## sokolov91

Quote: 





austinhorn said:


> Ditto on that.
> 
> But I've noticed a bunch of guys who start out on this site who start out cheap though & within a couple of years they have a bad case of "upgradeitis" & end up spending a lot more than they would have if they'd bit the bullet & gone for the gold or in this case the Phoenix right out of the box.  I SAY THAT FROM PERSONAL EXPERIENCE. If I'd just bought the Phoenix, a good DAC like Audio GD makes or in my case my Benchmark HDR & say a balanced HD650,  K702, or 600 ohm 880, & I'd be pretty close tor sonic heaven a lot sooner.  I've yet to hear my new LCD-2 in balanced mode but I'm sure that will be a few steps even closer, but I look forward to getting a balanced cable for it too. Then I may sell a lot of other gear.
> 
> ...


 


  I agree 100% with this.
   
  I have lost so much money in trying different things out, getting marginally better gear... etc... the money I wasted on shipping, taxes, etc... all of which could have been used to pay for where I am now anyways.... Ekkkk
   
  Oh well, at least I got here sooner than most, and am not stuck in midfi hell blowing my money on cables anymore.
   
  But if anyone gets upgrade itis from their first rig and has the dough, I think it wouldn't be too bad of a choice to go all him for something from Audio GD or other big name players in order to save on constantly swapping components.
   
  But everyone has to learn, even if it is the hard way.


----------



## AustinHorn

Sad but so true... I'm a living example of that! Couple that with my hoarding instinct when it comes to electronic gadgets & now I'm in the situation I'm in... More gear than any one person needs & most of it is not getting the use it deserves. The wife is NOT happy!!!
   
  But I do love my STUFF, especially my Phoenix!!!!!!! ;-D


----------



## mtntrance

Quote: 





sokolov91 said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  So true on diminishing returns.  I was jogging today with my new clip + Rockboxed w/Yuin Pk3s and was so satisfied with the sound I thought to myself with some satisfaction that I will never invest in a aftermarket car audio system again because I am forever spoiled with headphones-even on my exercising rig the sound is better than in my rather pricey car stereo.  Now I am back to obsessing on whether I am making the right choice on the Wolfson or Sabre ESS on the NFB-1.  Sokolov I hope recovery from surgery is going well.


----------



## SteveM324

I recently ordered a Phoenix and it should be shipped to me early March.  I already have 2 quality tube amps so I hope the Phoenix will take care of my SS needs and I will be done (for a few months anyway 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





).


----------



## dukja

Welcome to the club.
   
  I will be interested in hearing your comparison of Phoenix with ZD.  I know they are completely different animals: one SS the other tube and one balanced and the other SE.  Still I would appreciate it.  I compared Phoenix with my CSP2+ for some time and had a lot of fun.  And I have been interested in ZD since long ago.
   
  Thanks!


----------



## gogogasgas

I am going to order the Phoenix (Order of the Phoenix?) with different internal wiring, which I am going to supply. However, although Kingwa has told me a gauge of wire, I can't seem to communicate with him regarding the quantity/length required for the job.
   
*UPDATE*: For those who are interested, Kingwa said he needs 3.5-4 metres (that's 11-13 feet in Imperial) of AWG 18 wire.


----------



## vrln

Quote: 





stevem324 said:


> I recently ordered a Phoenix and it should be shipped to me early March.  I already have 2 quality tube amps so I hope the Phoenix will take care of my SS needs and I will be done (for a few months anyway
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


  Just don´t forget to get some new headphones cables, the Phoenix is nowhere near the same level single ended. The SNR is lower and only half of the circuitry is used.


----------



## SteveM324

I already have that covered but thanks anyway.

  
  Quote: 





vrln said:


> Just don´t forget to get some new headphones cables, the Phoenix is nowhere near the same level single ended. The SNR is lower and only half of the circuitry is used.


----------



## vrln

Awesome  Very interested in hearing how it compares to a fantastic tube amp like the ZD. Obviously very different, but the Phoenix has been billed by Skylab as a solid state that tube fans can like  The ZD is, from what I´ve read though, a very solid state sounding tube amp though, so maybe it won´t be such a different world after all.
   
  PS: did you know you can ask Kingwa to upgrade the stock wires in the Phoenix to OCC copper (DHC Nucleotide)? It´s cheap too.


----------



## SteveM324

I wasn't aware that Kingwa offered upgraded wire.  I'll inquire about the OCC DHC Nucleotide wire.  Thanks.

  
  Quote: 





vrln said:


> Awesome  Very interested in hearing how it compares to a fantastic tube amp like the ZD. Obviously very different, but the Phoenix has been billed by Skylab as a solid state that tube fans can like  The ZD is, from what I´ve read though, a very solid state sounding tube amp though, so maybe it won´t be such a different world after all.
> 
> PS: did you know you can ask Kingwa to upgrade the stock wires in the Phoenix to OCC copper (DHC Nucleotide)? It´s cheap too.


----------



## mtntrance

Quote: 





vrln said:


> Just don´t forget to get some new headphones cables, the Phoenix is nowhere near the same level single ended. The SNR is lower and only half of the circuitry is used.


 

 Ordered a Phoenix with a NFB-8 WM.   A little off topic but I have to convert my HD650s to balanced.  I am trying to decide if I should solder an XLR plug to my stock cable or find an inexpensive after market balanced like the one offered from Head-Direct Dowin http://www.head-direct.com/product_detail.php?p=20.  I cant see dropping as much for a new cable as the headphones cost.


----------



## SteveM324

Just added the OCC wire to my Phoenix order.  Thanks vrln!  The ZD SE is not tubey sounding at all but I'm using a highly modified Havana DAC with it that sounds absolutely fantastic.  It will
  make for an interesting comparison.

  
  Quote: 





vrln said:


> Awesome  Very interested in hearing how it compares to a fantastic tube amp like the ZD. Obviously very different, but the Phoenix has been billed by Skylab as a solid state that tube fans can like  The ZD is, from what I´ve read though, a very solid state sounding tube amp though, so maybe it won´t be such a different world after all.
> 
> PS: did you know you can ask Kingwa to upgrade the stock wires in the Phoenix to OCC copper (DHC Nucleotide)? It´s cheap too.


----------



## olor1n

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *SP Wild* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> The Phoenix has seen a lot of use and many hours have accumulated.  As with the Ref7, I believe burn-in affects the performance of this unit.  I feel that with regular use, this amp gains extra clarity and definition, I just confirmed this with an AB of the Lehmann.  This time around the Lehmann did not fare so well with the Phoenix.  There is a definite sense of congestion, less dynamics and a leanness/brightness with less micro details, the best analogy would be as if I used a very crude software upsampling algorithm on a digital signal...but the degradations are more pronounced with the Lehmann.
> 
> ...


 
   
   
  Your developing impressions these last few pages have been the most concise and convincing I've ever read on this site. If I had more disposable income than sense, I would have immediately pulled the trigger on the Ref 7 + Phoenix combo. Instead I grapple with the justification of balancing my HD650 and upgrading to the NFB-10WM.


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





olor1n said:


> Your developing impressions these last few pages have been the most concise and convincing I've ever read on this site. If I had more disposable income than sense, I would have immediately pulled the trigger on the Ref 7 + Phoenix combo. Instead I grapple with the justification of balancing my HD650 and upgrading to the NFB-10WM.


 

 Cheers,
   
  WRT the HD650, IMO, it is a great can, but is not resolving enough to realise the slight increase in resolution that top of the line, expensive components have over the better value propositions.  IMO, the HD650 can only expand very noticeably in soundstage, 3 dimensionality, dynamics and separation.  Resolution gains are IMO not worth the extra expenditure on ultra expensive electronics, as I feel that it is at best minimal, and at worst - if at all.  But I think the NFB-10WM is what I would have aimed for if I had to downgrade and keep only one can - the HD650, because IMO, the HD650 sounds terrible with bright electronics - these tend to expose the HD650s only weakness, not make up for it, which is the common consensus.
   
  mtntrance:  If you have never soldered before, I wouldn't recommend trying to solder the HD650 cable, instead pay an electronics repairer to do the job.  The conductors are coated with a non conductive metal coating that will not adhere to solder (the bare wires run along each other touching, left and right channels without any rubber insulation whatsoever).


----------



## olor1n

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *SP Wild* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> ...


 

 I've read you state this before in the HD650 thread and I agree entirely. The assumption that the HD650 will only benefit from brighter components is one that's stated as gospel around these parts (even by those with no first hand experience). This was on display recently in the NFB-12 thread where members without the HD650 in their inventories were recommending the apparently brighter NFB-11 despite another member voicing the great synergy he found in the warmth presented by the WM8741.
   
  On my setup, I prefer the warmth and forward presentation of the Moon hdam to the comparatively clinical resolution of the Earth hdam. There is no "veil" present in my setup either, so I've avoided silver and have instead gone with a upocc copper cable. This is why I'm looking at the WM instead of the ES and what you've said, coupled with Kingwa's own advice, reinforces that.


----------



## vrln

I´ll also second this. The HD 650 absolutely sings with non-bright gear like the Phoenix and the REF7. The tonality is just made for eachother. The Phoenix with its smooth sound reinforces the HD 650 sound signature perfectly. It just brings out the best in the easy listening sound signature. The "bright gear for warm headphones" is just another case of audiophile myths in my opinion.
   
  As for HD 650 not benefitting in resolution from higher end gear - I´ll partly agree with this. It doesn´t benefit as much as a HD 800, but there is still a very clear distinction resolution wise in my current setup compared the other rigs I´ve heard the HD 650 on. The optimal solution is to have both, a HD 650 for easy listening and something aiming for the hardcore revealing sound like a HD 800. Then you have the whole spectrum covered  The HD 650 definately won´t be my last headphone, but it will have a solid place in my collection (actually I would even add that if I buy a HD 800 the 650 will still be my main headphone).
   
  I´d also go for the NFB-10wm instead of the ES variant with the HD 650. With a HD 800 or K701, NFB10ES instead, at least if one doesn´t want a 650/doesn´t have an issue with the sometimes fatiguing sound. But luckily slightly relaxed gear mates well with hyper neutral also, but it doesn´t go the other way round in my experience. The worst HD 650 pairing I´ve heard was the Benchmark DAC-1. It´s as if there was something shrill trying to break out all the time in the sound, and there was just no direction in the sound signature.


----------



## SteveM324

Sorry if this has been covered before, but is there a difference in sound quality of the Phoenix using the balanced single 4 pin XLR vs the two (L&R) 3 pin XLRs?   As I wait for my Phoenix,  I will be ordering more cables in the next few days and I would like to know which termination to order.  Thanks.


----------



## lmswjm

Should be identical...........


----------



## AustinHorn

Guys, I just want to say that I have both versions of the HD650 & own or have owned many different amps (tube & ss) & running either 650 pair in fully balanced mode with my Phoenix/HDR amp/dac combo using SAA cables gives the HD650s a wonnderful sound I have just not heard from any other amp - tube or ss. If a person owns any HD650 but not the Phoenix, then they haven't heard the HD650. & yes I've heard them in balanced mode on several other high end amps & it just isn't the same. I have & have had a lot of headphone gear in the last decade, & I've yet to hear anything match as well as the HD650 headphone & the Phoenix. I could happily live out my remaining life with just that combo & not really miss anythiing else. But me & my PayPal account can't seem to leave well enough alone....:mad: This darn forum just gives me itches & have to scratch. but so far, no combo I've owned or heard has ever had the "synergy" of these two pieces of gear. For pure musical enjoyment, that is the duo I always reach for late at night when it is just me & the music! To me, audio nervana!!!!


----------



## mtntrance

Quote: 





olor1n said:


> I've read you state this before in the HD650 thread and I agree entirely. The assumption that the HD650 will only benefit from brighter components is one that's stated as gospel around these parts (even by those with no first hand experience). This was on display recently in the NFB-12 thread where members without the HD650 in their inventories were recommending the apparently brighter NFB-11 despite another member voicing the great synergy he found in the warmth presented by the WM8741.
> 
> On my setup, I prefer the warmth and forward presentation of the Moon hdam to the comparatively clinical resolution of the Earth hdam. There is no "veil" present in my setup either, so I've avoided silver and have instead gone with a upocc copper cable. This is why I'm looking at the WM instead of the ES and what you've said, coupled with Kingwa's own advice, reinforces that.


 

 Last week I was obsessing over the WM841 versus Sabre ESS for a audio gd DAC to match the Phoenix and my gut just said stay with the WM 8471.  When I finally made a decision on the WM8741 I was relieved.  Having read these recent posts on the synergy of the HD650 with the signature of the Phoenix and WM 8471 I am even more  resolute that choosing the NFB-8 WM over the NFB-7 ES was the correct call.  I don't hear a veil on my HD650 with the C-2 DAC-19 DSP even when out of CAST mode and using the Moon hdam.  Kingwa did tell me the WM8741 is closest to the Reference series DACs.


----------



## mtntrance

Quote: 





stevem324 said:


> Sorry if this has been covered before, but is there a difference in sound quality of the Phoenix using the balanced single 4 pin XLR vs the two (L&R) 3 pin XLRs?   As I wait for my Phoenix,  I will be ordering more cables in the next few days and I would like to know which termination to order.  Thanks.


 


  I am curious about you balanced cable decisions for the HD650.  I am not a believer in cable sound signatures but dont mind paying a reasonable amount for a quality built balanced cable.  I am also considering in building my own.


----------



## haloxt

I've been looking at different options for recabling for a while, and I think this one is pretty interesting.
   
  http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10218&cs_id=1021802&p_id=5578&seq=1&format=2
   
  $2.55 for 10 feet of 22awgx4 shielded, just cut off both ends and reterminate with 4-pin neutrik or 2x3-pin neutrik. They are quite thick with the shield, you have to be very serious about cables if you use these as headphone cables .
   
  The next cable is freaking extreme, 16 awg is 50% thicker than stock power cables *** , and fully shielded! This is such an insane price/performance ratio even though they don't come in pairs I have to say monoprice has hands down beat audio-gd when it comes to xlr cables . It's so unbelievable someone should shoot my face and wake me up. I've felt tempted to get a pair of these cables for headphone cables just for cool factor but I mostly use speakers now and busy tweaking in that area instead.
   
  http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10244&cs_id=1024401&p_id=4752&seq=1&format=2


----------



## les_garten

Quote: 





haloxt said:


> I've been looking at different options for recabling for a while, and I think this one is pretty interesting.
> 
> http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10218&cs_id=1021802&p_id=5578&seq=1&format=2
> 
> ...


 


   
  I'm thinkin'  you would like my Dual Star Quad Custom Balnaced 225's I did.
   
http://www.turbonet.biz/misc/225/AAA_1772.JPG


----------



## haloxt

That looks very nice. Someday I'm going to redo most of my headphones recables with canare star quad. Price performance-wise though, hard to beat monoprice premium stereo cables.


----------



## les_garten

Quote: 





haloxt said:


> That looks very nice. Someday I'm going to redo most of my headphones recables with canare star quad. Price performance-wise though, hard to beat monoprice premium stereo cables.


 

 That'a a Canare L-4E3-2P   Dual Star Quad.  2 separate Star Quads in the same cable.


----------



## sokolov91

Quote: 





stevem324 said:


> Sorry if this has been covered before, but is there a difference in sound quality of the Phoenix using the balanced single 4 pin XLR vs the two (L&R) 3 pin XLRs?   As I wait for my Phoenix,  I will be ordering more cables in the next few days and I would like to know which termination to order.  Thanks.


 


  The phoenix has 4 amps inside. When you use SE you are using 2. When you use balanced you are using all 4.
   
  The same 4 amps are hooked up to the 4 pin and 2 x 3 pin and 2 of the 4 amps are also wired to the TRS jack.
   
  The sound quality will (not to be confused with should) be identical. The only reason there are both options is because headroom stupidly made the standard 2 x 3 pins and many people paid big bucks to get their headphones done this way. There are only 4 cables used so the 2 x 3 method has one useless pin per XLR connector. The 4 pin method is the same, except is is easier to deal with, slightly less expensive and increasingly becoming the new standard (which it should have been from the get go).


----------



## SteveM324

Thanks for the explanation Sokolov91.

  
  Quote: 





sokolov91 said:


> The phoenix has 4 amps inside. When you use SE you are using 2. When you use balanced you are using all 4.
> 
> The same 4 amps are hooked up to the 4 pin and 2 x 3 pin and 2 of the 4 amps are also wired to the TRS jack.
> 
> The sound quality will (not to be confused with should) be identical. The only reason there are both options is because headroom stupidly made the standard 2 x 3 pins and many people paid big bucks to get their headphones done this way. There are only 4 cables used so the 2 x 3 method has one useless pin per XLR connector. The 4 pin method is the same, except is is easier to deal with, slightly less expensive and increasingly becoming the new standard (which it should have been from the get go).


----------



## AustinHorn

i've got both 3 & 4 pin balanced cables for my HD650s & there is no difference in the sound with them. I also have some adapters that go from 3 to 4 pin & vice versa that Ive used on my other balanced headphones & that too makes no difference. Anyway, FYI....


----------



## tim3320070

Quote: 





haloxt said:


> I've been looking at different options for recabling for a while, and I think this one is pretty interesting.
> 
> http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10218&cs_id=1021802&p_id=5578&seq=1&format=2
> 
> ...


 
  I'm with you on the cost/value end of the cable debate. I really like Mogami- it's heavy rubber and sits still, is flexible and does not tangle easily. It's also super rugged being a mic cord. Markertek.com is a good resource for this and plugs (you probably already know this though). I have found that a lot of Monoprice cables serve their purpose fine but the casing is usually kind of thick, inflexible and plastic-y. FYI.


----------



## les_garten

Quote: 





tim3320070 said:


> I'm with you on the cost/value end of the cable debate. I really like Mogami- it's heavy rubber and sits still, is flexible and does not tangle easily. It's also super rugged being a mic cord. Markertek.com is a good resource for this and plugs (you probably already know this though). *I have found that a lot of Monoprice cables serve their purpose fine but the casing is usually kind of thick, inflexible and plastic-y. *FYI.


 

  
   
  Indeed!  That's been the problem I've had with them as well.   I have a long HDMI cable that has some version on TechFlex on it that I swear I could cut a tree down with it.
   
  Can't argue with their prices though, bang for the buck they can't be beat.
   
  I like Mogami and Canare as well, and maybe Cardis if I'm feeling Exotic and want to deal with the Litz enamal.


----------



## sokolov91

Quote: 





stevem324 said:


> Thanks for the explanation Sokolov91.


 
  You are quite welcome.
   
  That is not to say there aren't benefits going from SE to XLR. I believe there are -that is to say other than more gain, most notably in dynamic headphones where the impedance curves are all over the place.
   
  My D7000 especially seemed to jump in performance from SE in terms of soudstage and "control". Take it for what it is worth though as it could be all in my head .


----------



## Pricklely Peete

I'm still lovin' mine and I can hardly wait to get my hands on some LCD-2s (having heard CharlieX's balanced pair on my rig at the last meet I attended). I still have no desire to look for anything else, glad the newest owners are enjoying the combo (A-gd DAC/Phoenix).
   
  Peete.


----------



## SteveM324

I'm looking forward to hearing my LA7000 balanced.  Based on your experience with the D7000, the LA7000 should really be sweet.  Within the next two weeks, 6 of my 7 headphones will be cabled for balanced operation.

  
  Quote: 





sokolov91 said:


> You are quite welcome.
> 
> That is not to say there aren't benefits going from SE to XLR. I believe there are -that is to say other than more gain, most notably in dynamic headphones where the impedance curves are all over the place.
> 
> My D7000 especially seemed to jump in performance from SE in terms of soudstage and "control". Take it for what it is worth though as it could be all in my head .


----------



## odyssey

Was so close to pulling the trigger on the Audio-gd Phoenix this morning but thought I get a second opinion from the experts. Plan to acquire the Oppo 95 as my source player + NAS (to be built) so the flow will be; Oppo 95 (balanced out) -> Audio-gd Phoenix -> HE6, Senn. HD600 (back-up) and pre-ordered LCD2 Is this the correct flow and a good choice / decision? Was looking at the Meier Concerto + StageDac Combo yesterday but decided on the above hoping that it will give me a better SQ at lower cost since I can use the built-in DAC in the Opp95. TIA.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:  





> The sound quality will (not to be confused with should) be identical. The only reason there are both options is because headroom stupidly made the standard 2 x 3 pins and many people paid big bucks to get their headphones done this way. There are only 4 cables used so the 2 x 3 method has one useless pin per XLR connector. The 4 pin method is the same, except is is easier to deal with, slightly less expensive and increasingly becoming the new standard (which it should have been from the get go).


 

 Agreed, dual 3-pin was kind of a silly idea to implement as a standard for balanced headphones, however dual 3-pin definitely has a benefit if your cable has a shield and it's tied to pin 1, so don't say it has one useless pin because that's not true.  You will notice a difference if the shield is not connected properly in the headphone cable.  You do not want a floating shield.  However, if your cable does not have a shield 4-pin is fine, unless you're like me and want to keep both channels completely isolated as is the case with the Double Helix Cables HD800 Complement.


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





odyssey said:


> Was so close to pulling the trigger on the Audio-gd Phoenix this morning but thought I get a second opinion from the experts. Plan to acquire the Oppo 95 as my source player + NAS (to be built) so the flow will be; Oppo 95 (balanced out) -> Audio-gd Phoenix -> HE6, Senn. HD600 (back-up) and pre-ordered LCD2 Is this the correct flow and a good choice / decision? Was looking at the Meier Concerto + StageDac Combo yesterday but decided on the above hoping that it will give me a better SQ at lower cost since I can use the built-in DAC in the Opp95. TIA.


 


  Sokolov is the only user I am aware of that has both HE6 and the Phoenix, perhaps he could chime in with this combination as there seems to be a consensus that the HE6 requires speaker like output capabilities to truly shine.
   
  Otherwise my HD650s really opened up in the soundstage, layering and 3 dimensionality as did the LCD2s when balanced with the Phoenix, the HD600s should also benefit.  FWIW I still preferred the Phoenix single ended than my single ended Lehmann black cube amp.  I had an audition with the Meyer Concerto + StageDac combo...the weakness was the StageDac, the amp being very, very good...I still felt the Phoenix was a better amplifier overall, without a doubt.  I do like the Concerto, as I felt it was a better than the Black cube overall and is also significantly cheaper I believe, I highly recommend the Concerto amplifier - very good value.


----------



## odyssey

Quote: 





sp wild said:


> Sokolov is the only user I am aware of that has both HE6 and the Phoenix, perhaps he could chime in with this combination as there seems to be a consensus that the HE6 requires speaker like output capabilities to truly shine.
> 
> Otherwise my HD650s really opened up in the soundstage, layering and 3 dimensionality as did the LCD2s when balanced with the Phoenix, the HD600s should also benefit.  FWIW I still preferred the Phoenix single ended than my single ended Lehmann black cube amp.


 
  Many thanks for the feedback. I also hope that the Phoenix can drive the HE6 otherwise I will have to really go for the Woo WA5/LE which was one of my shortlist. First time into tubes so the hesitation.. Hope Sokolov can give me some impressions.


----------



## Fantoon

Is there any planned update for the phoenix or is there a new HP amp incoming from Audio-GD? 
   
  Thanks


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote: 





odyssey said:


> Many thanks for the feedback. I also hope that the Phoenix can drive the HE6 otherwise I will have to really go for the Woo WA5/LE which was one of my shortlist. First time into tubes so the hesitation.. Hope Sokolov can give me some impressions.


 


  At that last meet I also had the pleasure of auditioning a set of HE5-LE's ....the Phoenix handled them quite well but they were not as good as the LCD-2's, which should be no surprise. I would imagine the HE6 would likely be equally well handled by the Phoenix if they are similar to the HE5-LE's but I'm not 100% sure of that FWIW.
   
  Peete.


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





sokolov91 said:


> You are quite welcome.
> 
> That is not to say there aren't benefits going from SE to XLR. I believe there are -that is to say other than more gain, most notably in dynamic headphones where the impedance curves are all over the place.
> 
> My D7000 especially seemed to jump in performance from SE in terms of soudstage and "control". Take it for what it is worth though as it could be all in my head .


 

 WRT the D7000s, I recall a sensation, even when single ended, when I first jumped onto the Phoenix, was the headphone that truly exposed the benefits of a dual mono design, as I could more easily discern better left and right channel separation over all my other cans.  I believe this is because it is a closed headphone and this design has no acoustic crosstalk, so it can mirror reductions on electronic crosstalk.  When going balanced, crosstalk is further reduced along with better noise rejection and the D7000 once again benefiting noticeably from the better channel separation.  It's still a double edged sword as on some recordings, where engineers did not check a track with headphone compatibility (most do) the centre image goes AWOL. 
   
  Or it could just be placebo hehehe.


----------



## dukja

@ SP Wild
   
  Would you please share your experience of using LCD2 and HD650 with Phoenix? 
   
  I had HD600 in the past, but never balance it for Phoenix (that was before I learned the distinct difference of SE and balance in Phoenix).  Due to the looser and less focusing sound of HD600 in SE at that time, I never look back to HD600/650.  But recently I heard many posts mentioned some similarity between LCD2 and HD650 (certainly not the same level, probably), so my interest with HD650 peaks again.
   
  I have always worried that LCD2 may be too dark with Phoenix so I have not pull any trigger yet (and certainly some financial reason).  So I will be very interested to hear your experience of those two phone with Phoenix in balanced mode.  And do you think that it will be worthy to get HD650 (after having T1) if my current budget is limited.
   
  Many thanks to you and others who share.
  
  Quote: 





sp wild said:


> Otherwise my HD650s really opened up in the soundstage, layering and 3 dimensionality as did the LCD2s when balanced with the Phoenix, the HD600s should also benefit.  FWIW I still preferred the Phoenix single ended than my single ended Lehmann black cube amp.  I had an audition with the Meyer Concerto + StageDac combo...the weakness was the StageDac, the amp being very, very good...I still felt the Phoenix was a better amplifier overall, without a doubt.  I do like the Concerto, as I felt it was a better than the Black cube overall and is also significantly cheaper I believe, I highly recommend the Concerto amplifier - very good value.


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





dukja said:


> @ SP Wild
> 
> Would you please share your experience of using LCD2 and HD650 with Phoenix?
> 
> ...


 

 If the only problem you had with the HD600 is a "loose" and "unfocussed" sound, and not the tonal balance.  Then IMO, nothing fixes that, and the HD650 suffers the same fate...as I mentioned, there is virtually no resolution improvements with the HD650 from mid level amps/dacs to hi end amps/dacs - there will be plenty of soundstage improvements, but there is a limit on the HD650s drivers acceleration rate - which for me is heard as greater definition and transparency, and that limit is met by mid level equipment.
   
  The LCD2 is very different in this regard, even if many categorise both headphones as a dark can.  For me, balancing does not increase resolution, it increases spatial perception, many will be able to perceive more details from a more spread out and less congested soundscape, but in my mind there is little change in resolution.  Tonal balances changes a touch, as it seems to me an extra layer of electronic haze is removed and the "blacker background" can also be interpreted as either a darker presentation or a smoother, more relaxed and natural presentation.  I subscribe to the latter.
   
  IMO, the increase in slew rate by going balanced is not realised by todays transducers.  There is sometimes an increase in bass control due to the 100 percent increase in available power on standby in quick class A mode.  Come think of it, yes the bass does seem to tighten up going balanced.


----------



## dukja

Thanks a lot SP Wild.  You just saved me from another trial and error.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 So you don't think LCD2 is too dark with Phoenix?
   
  Another common complains of LCD2 is congestion. It is good to hear that balanced mode with Phoenix opens up more spacious soundstage.   Transparency, focusing, and believable soundstage is what I weight more.  Maybe with right cable and in balanced mode, I may have a shot with LCD2 and Phoenix, right?
   
  Thanks!
  Quote: 





sp wild said:


> If the only problem you had with the HD600 is a "loose" and "unfocussed" sound, and not the tonal balance.  Then IMO, nothing fixes that, and the HD650 suffers the same fate...as I mentioned, there is virtually no resolution improvements with the HD650 from mid level amps/dacs to hi end amps/dacs - there will be plenty of soundstage improvements, but there is a limit on the HD650s drivers acceleration rate - which for me is heard as greater definition and transparency, and that limit is met by mid level equipment.
> 
> The LCD2 is very different in this regard, even if many categorise both headphones as a dark can.  For me, balancing does not increase resolution, it increases spatial perception, many will be able to perceive more details from a more spread out and less congested soundscape, but in my mind there is little change in resolution.  Tonal balances changes a touch, as it seems to me an extra layer of electronic haze is removed and the "blacker background" can also be interpreted as either a darker presentation or a smoother, more relaxed and natural presentation.  I subscribe to the latter.
> 
> IMO, the increase in slew rate by going balanced is not realised by todays transducers.


----------



## SP Wild

If you're happy with the tonal balance of the T1...the HD650 is a definitive downgrade 
   
  Me personally, I don't think the LCD2 is too dark with anything - NOS dacs and warms amps sound good to me with the LCD2   The Phoenix and Reference 7 combo is not dark in anyway whatsoever...my BCL amp is brighter, yet for me it was less able to retrieve ambient cues that exist in the upper frequencies.  Nor is the combo tube like warm, although I feel it has the staging and imaging advantage that I thought was exclusive to tubes.  I think more burn-in with both combos have had the combo seriously "opening" up and my initial impressions are a lot different to what I think now. 
   
  VRLN had exactly the same setup as I did...with Norse Audio balance cable as well...but he had serious problems with "congestion" with the LCD2 and sold them...yet he had no such sensation with the HD650, so I can't say for sure how you will feel.
   
  I see you have T1 and DT880...if you have a complaint that they are too bright then I would say the LCD2 is worth a shot, if you like them then I say the T1 is up there in the bigger scheme of things alongside the LCD2 and HD800.


----------



## dukja

Thanks!  Great info to bear in mind.
   
  Actually, I never feel my Phoenix + Ref 7 to be too dark and they are perfect for DT880 and T1.  It is just LCD2 is "less bright" and hence my concern.
   
  The only thing appeals me was maybe additional bass impact and weight.  Again, I have no complain on my current system at all.  The bass I had now is very solid and deep.  But you know, people always curious about apples on the other tree.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  However, I would not trade the openness (opposite of congestion) and focusing with additional bass since bass was not significant component in my music genre.

  
  Quote: 





sp wild said:


> If you're happy with the tonal balance of the T1...the HD650 is a definitive downgrade
> 
> Me personally, I don't think the LCD2 is too dark with anything - NOS dacs and warms amps sound good to me with the LCD2   The Phoenix and Reference 7 combo is not dark in anyway whatsoever...my BCL amp is brighter, yet for me it was less able to retrieve ambient cues that exist in the upper frequencies.  Nor is the combo tube like warm, although I feel it has the staging and imaging advantage that I thought was exclusive to tubes.  I think more burn-in with both combos have had the combo seriously "opening" up and my initial impressions are a lot different to what I think now.
> 
> ...


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





dukja said:


> Thanks!  Great info to bear in mind.
> 
> Actually, I never feel my Phoenix + Ref 7 to be too dark and they are perfect for DT880 and T1.  It is just LCD2 is "less bright" and hence my concern.
> 
> ...


 

 When I had the T1 with me, the best thing about them was its unique bass presentation style - the HD800 and LCD2 has the same "airy" bass type presentation, the T1 had a very alluring pleasant "flicky" bass, one which I could not EQ into either the HD800 or LCD2...it was the T1s most memorable feature.
   
  On a different note, what volumes do you guys listen at.  For me it is as follows (all balanced and at the 99 scale)
   
  D7000 - 1
  HD650 - 3
  K701 - 4
  LCD2 - 3
   
  Thats for background music, I can listen forever with no fatigue (most of my headtime).  For enthusiastic levels and testing anywhere between 18-30 on indulgent occassions - after which I suffer temporary hearing loss afterwards - but its worth it!  For a one hour session, probably between 8-14.
   
  I originally only used the 70 scale, but when I balanced the D7000, I needed that lower volume of the 99 scale.  It also dawned on me that all those individual resistors might need burning in?


----------



## dukja

Thanks! Good to know that.
  Quote: 





sp wild said:


> When I had the T1 with me, the best thing about them was its unique bass presentation style - the HD800 and LCD2 has the same "airy" bass type presentation, the T1 had a very alluring pleasant "flicky" bass, one which I could not EQ into either the HD800 or LCD2...it was the T1s most memorable feature.


 
   
  My listening level is about 70~80 dB.  And I use 70 levels with my Phoenix (the difference on 70 & 99 was very controversial).  The level I used are:
               classical recording      modern hot recording
  T1                     12                               09
  DT880               14                               11
   
  My T1 with 03/77 level has only about 60 dB with modern hot recording.  My DT880/600 need most voltage gain (level) to drive in all my experience (DT880/250, HD600, K702, T1).
   
  Quote: 





sp wild said:


> On a different note, what volumes do you guys listen at.  For me it is as follows (all balanced and at the 99 scale)
> 
> D7000 - 1
> HD650 - 3
> ...


----------



## vrln

Agreed. If you have no problem with the T1 tonality, you will probably not like the HD 650. That said, you might not like the LCD-2 either. T1 is really good at the "out of head" soundstage. About LCD-2 darkness, I don´t think it was all that dark on the Phoenix either. There are quite a few here who absolutely love the Phoenix/LCD-2 combo. My problem with the LCD2/Phoenix combo wasn´t really in any way related to what the Phoenix sound signature does. It´s usually considered an amp that opens up the soundstage. The LCD-2´s issues, if you ask me, are (1) the soundstage, (2) severely recessed highs and (3) the weight/design. It´s just not comfortable enough for daily PC use. You never for a second forget they are on. On the other hand I found the HD 650 clamp perfect, which a lot of people are not fond of. So it all depends on your head size etc.
   
  I´ve also found that I almost value comfort as much as sonics in headphones. But the main issue was the soundstage performance. It felt like an IEM that´s trying to reach outside the head, but doesn´t manage to do it. It´s in an odd limbo stage, which I just couldn´t get used to. But I fully admit to being an open air style soundstage fan (diffuse field). The LCD-2 just isn´t that airy and wide, it´s a very intimate experience. The HD 650 is intimate too, and actually also shares the LCD-2´s high´s roll off, but it doesn´t overdo it. I feel the HD 650 is a better implementation of the sound signature the LCD-2 is aiming for. It isn´t as good as the T1 or HD 800 soundstaging wise, but it´s the critical league above the LCD-2 in that sector. It also has a far better sense of layering and depth. Oh and even with these flaws, if only the soundstaging was on the same level as the previous dynamic headphone flagships, I might have kept it. Judging from what I´ve read though, it seems orthos just can´t manage the out of head sound. I use headphones because I can´t use speakers that much - the closer my headphones get to the speaker experience, the better they are for me. The LCD-2 aims for something entirely different. You might love it though, it all depends on what you are looking for. For me, the main issue with the LCD-2 is just that the canvas the headphones "paint on", is just too small for me to really appreciate the detail.
   
  By the way, I´m letting go of my Phoenix (if anyoe in the EU is reading this, feel free to message me about a potential sale) as I got a STAX deal I just couldn´t refuse. It´s a fantastic amplifier though, and I still stand by my view that the HD 650 + Phoenix is the best I´ve heard out of dynamics or orthos.
   
  Last but not least, the LCD-2 are very cheap to try out. They sell out within 24 hours on the for sale forums usually, and at a price that´s pretty much almost the same Audeze asks for them.


----------



## dukja

@ vrln
   
  Thanks a lot for your sharing.  I do love the tonality and soundstage of DT880/600 and T1.  Before T1, I have three DT880.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  My hesitation of getting LCD2 comes from the speculation that exactly you described.  Thanks for the help to ease my impulse of getting LCD2. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Sorry to see you leave Audio-GD's club.  Good luck and keep us updated on the STAX gear comparing with your old gear!
  
  Quote: 





vrln said:


> Agreed. If you have no problem with the T1 tonality, you will probably not like the HD 650. That said, you might not like the LCD-2 either. T1 is really good at the "out of head" soundstage. About LCD-2 darkness, I don´t think it was all that dark on the Phoenix either. There are quite a few here who absolutely love the Phoenix/LCD-2 combo. My problem with the LCD2/Phoenix combo wasn´t really in any way related to what the Phoenix sound signature does. It´s usually considered an amp that opens up the soundstage. The LCD-2´s issues, if you ask me, are (1) the soundstage, (2) severely recessed highs and (3) the weight/design. It´s just not comfortable enough for daily PC use. You never for a second forget they are on. On the other hand I found the HD 650 clamp perfect, which a lot of people are not fond of. So it all depends on your head size etc.
> 
> I´ve also found that I almost value comfort as much as sonics in headphones. But the main issue was the soundstage performance. It felt like an IEM that´s trying to reach outside the head, but doesn´t manage to do it. It´s in an odd limbo stage, which I just couldn´t get used to. But I fully admit to being an open air style soundstage fan (diffuse field). The LCD-2 just isn´t that airy and wide, it´s a very intimate experience. The HD 650 is intimate too, and actually also shares the LCD-2´s high´s roll off, but it doesn´t overdo it. I feel the HD 650 is a better implementation of the sound signature the LCD-2 is aiming for. It isn´t as good as the T1 or HD 800 soundstaging wise, but it´s the critical league above the LCD-2 in that sector. It also has a far better sense of layering and depth. Oh and even with these flaws, if only the soundstaging was on the same level as the previous dynamic headphone flagships, I might have kept it. Judging from what I´ve read though, it seems orthos just can´t manage the out of head sound. I use headphones because I can´t use speakers that much - the closer my headphones get to the speaker experience, the better they are for me. The LCD-2 aims for something entirely different. You might love it though, it all depends on what you are looking for. For me, the main issue with the LCD-2 is just that the canvas the headphones "paint on", is just too small for me to really appreciate the detail.
> 
> ...


----------



## vrln

I had the DT 880 too... They were too treble happy to me... If you like those, I think you´re in for a huge disappointment if you get the LCD-2  The LCD-2 is the exact opposite of those! If you can lend the HD 650, you can use those as a small test. If you like the HD 650 treble roll off, then the LCD-2 is like a more closed, smaller soundstage version of that tonality direction done even further (too far if you ask me, HD 650 does it well), along with more detail and better bass. If you want an "easy listening" headphone to complement the T1, the HD 650 is worth a try.
   
  Oh I´m not leaving the Audio-gd club at all  Actually I´m expanding my Kingwa product lineup... My speaker rig will be all Audio-gd: CD7 to NFB-8 to MASTER-1 to active monitors (Genelec). I´m just splitting my PC headphone rig. And my source for the STAX (PC rig) is the REF7/Digital Interface. It´s just the Phoenix I´m letting go. Might even get an NFB-11 or 12 for work. You can still count me as a fan  My main issue with the Phoenix is that it´s very big, I don´t have the space for it on my PC desk. If Audio-gd could shrink the size to a smaller dual chassis build, while retaining the same sound quality, that would be a nice improvement. The Phoenix is just fantastic value and a great all rounder too.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

sp wild said:


> If the only problem you had with the HD600 is a "loose" and "unfocussed" sound, and not the tonal balance.  Then IMO, nothing fixes that, and the HD650 suffers the same fate...as I mentioned, there is virtually no resolution improvements with the HD650 from mid level amps/dacs to hi end amps/dacs - there will be plenty of soundstage improvements, but there is a limit on the HD650s drivers acceleration rate - which for me is heard as greater definition and transparency, and that limit is met by mid level equipment.
> 
> The LCD2 is very different in this regard, even if many categorise both headphones as a dark can.  For me, balancing does not increase resolution, it increases spatial perception, many will be able to perceive more details from a more spread out and less congested soundscape, but in my mind there is little change in resolution.  Tonal balances changes a touch, as it seems to me an extra layer of electronic haze is removed and the "blacker background" can also be interpreted as either a darker presentation or a smoother, more relaxed and natural presentation.  I subscribe to the latter.
> 
> IMO, the increase in slew rate by going balanced is not realised by todays transducers.  There is sometimes an increase in bass control due to the 100 percent increase in available power on standby in quick class A mode.  Come think of it, yes the bass does seem to tighten up going balanced.


 

 Balanced mode IIRC controls both the + and the - excursion of the respective drivers...SE'd only controls the positive movements.
   
  On another note planar based drivers can take quite a while to break in so early impressions will not match later impressions...the diaphragm/substrate material needs to be worked quite a bit before it's at it's best. The same thing happens with big planar drivers (ET and Maggies)...I've found it took around 500 hours to break the panels in fully...I would imagine planar cans are no different.
   
  Peete.


----------



## sokolov91

Quote: 





pricklely peete said:


> Balanced mode IIRC controls both the + and the - excursion of the respective drivers...SE'd only controls the positive movements.
> 
> On another note planar based drivers can take quite a while to break in so early impressions will not match later impressions...the diaphragm/substrate material needs to be worked quite a bit before it's at it's best. The same thing happens with big planar drivers (ET and Maggies)...I've found it took around 500 hours to break the panels in fully...I would imagine planar cans are no different.
> 
> Peete.


 
  500 hours seems to be a pretty common number with you haha


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote: 





sokolov91 said:


> 500 hours seems to be a pretty common number with you haha


 


  Yeah you are right....interesting coincidence for sure 
   
  Peete.


----------



## lmswjm

Just thought I'd throw my 2 cents in. I went to the Fall NYC meet with my Audio-GD chain (CD7, Ref 1 & Phoenix) with the purpose of auditioning the LCD2 and HE6. The LCD2 was too treble shy for my taste. I loved the HE6 though. I also owned the orignal HE5. They both require about the same power. I would recommend the HE6 and Phoenix combo to all except those who listen loud. I listen to uncompressed music on my mod'd D7000's at about 20/70. With the same music, I could easily get into the 60's range on the Phoenix with the HE6 balanced. Of course this was all under "meet conditions". In the end I passed on the HE6 because I felt my custom D7000's were a lot more effortless with a similar signature with more thump. I would have liked to hear the HE6 on a speaker amp. The Phoenix definitely blew the EF5 out of the water. I was ready to buy the HE6 for a steal at the $899 meet price too. Good to see Brad posting again...........


----------



## tim3320070

D7000 Phoenix is a great combo that I will have to return to soon as I can. Currently can't seem to care to upgrade from my balanced DT770/600 with the Phoenix. Surprisingly good combo. I have always felt the Phoenix "tightens" up bass heavy cans like the two mentioned.


----------



## dukja

Thanks for the hint.  I had HE-5 for less than a month and have to return it.  Its tonality was just not my cup of tea.  I feel that DT880 surpassed it in every way.  That was also my hesitation for HE-6.
   
  It is rather hard to hold on myself after being brainwashed by all the praises of those ortho in this board.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  But I had my reasons.  Ortho's sound signature and their low impedance (for my CSP2+ is an OTL) may be the main reasons.

 Good to know that you still have AG gears.
   
  Quote: 





vrln said:


> I had the DT 880 too... They were too treble happy to me... If you like those, I think you´re in for a huge disappointment if you get the LCD-2  The LCD-2 is the exact opposite of those! If you can lend the HD 650, you can use those as a small test. If you like the HD 650 treble roll off, then the LCD-2 is like a more closed, smaller soundstage version of that tonality direction done even further (too far if you ask me, HD 650 does it well), along with more detail and better bass. If you want an "easy listening" headphone to complement the T1, the HD 650 is worth a try.
> 
> Oh I´m not leaving the Audio-gd club at all  Actually I´m expanding my Kingwa product lineup... My speaker rig will be all Audio-gd: CD7 to NFB-8 to MASTER-1 to active monitors (Genelec). I´m just splitting my PC headphone rig. And my source for the STAX (PC rig) is the REF7/Digital Interface. It´s just the Phoenix I´m letting go. Might even get an NFB-11 or 12 for work. You can still count me as a fan  My main issue with the Phoenix is that it´s very big, I don´t have the space for it on my PC desk. If Audio-gd could shrink the size to a smaller dual chassis build, while retaining the same sound quality, that would be a nice improvement. The Phoenix is just fantastic value and a great all rounder too.


----------



## sokolov91

Quote: 





lmswjm said:


> Just thought I'd throw my 2 cents in. I went to the Fall NYC meet with my Audio-GD chain (CD7, Ref 1 & Phoenix) with the purpose of auditioning the LCD2 and HE6. The LCD2 was too treble shy for my taste. I loved the HE6 though. I also owned the orignal HE5. They both require about the same power. I would recommend the HE6 and Phoenix combo to all except those who listen loud. I listen to uncompressed music on my mod'd D7000's at about 20/70. With the same music, I could easily get into the 60's range on the Phoenix with the HE6 balanced. Of course this was all under "meet conditions". In the end I passed on the HE6 because I felt my custom D7000's were a lot more effortless with a similar signature with more thump. I would have liked to hear the HE6 on a speaker amp. The Phoenix definitely blew the EF5 out of the water. I was ready to buy the HE6 for a steal at the $899 meet price too. Good to see Brad posting again...........


 
  I think the way the power works out the Phoenix actually outputs similar power as many speaker amps head-fiers are using.
   
  2.3 watts at 50 ohms is way different than 8 ohm ratings. I could be wrong though.
   
  I will have to compared my D7000 with my  HE-6 when I get the D7000 back. I don't know that they sound _THAT_ similar but they do indeed have some common traits.
   
  Just goes to show how good the D7000 really are if you could pass up a flagship ortho for them.


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





pricklely peete said:


> Balanced mode IIRC controls both the + and the - excursion of the respective drivers...SE'd only controls the positive movements.


 

 As I understand it, this is a common misconception.  A sinewave is an AC signal going from positive to negative - the graph picture always shows the wave crossing the 0 amplitude, or in an amplifiers case, 0 volts.  Then on its way from positive to negative, in voltages in the amplifiers case.  A 12 volt sine wave output would be an AC signal of +6 and -6 volts, regardless if the signal is dual differential or single ended.
   
This link explains it.
   
  I understand voltage difference in the above and how it relates to common mode noise...but if anything I can't understand how a speaker knows to pull in or push out with a differential signal.  Perhaps someone can enlighten me.  I suspect that it's because of the 180 degree phase difference, the positive signal must start before the negative by half a period.  EDIT:  Come think about it, I don't think an inverted musical signal is delayed at all as in that sinewave example in the link - so anyone care to chime in with this hole in my understanding?


----------



## lmswjm

Quote: 





sokolov91 said:


> I think the way the power works out the Phoenix actually outputs similar power as many speaker amps head-fiers are using.
> 
> 2.3 watts at 50 ohms is way different than 8 ohm ratings. I could be wrong though.
> 
> ...


 
  Actually the HE6, IMO, sounds much different and much better than a stock D7000. Before there was an HE6, I almost sold my D7K's in favor of the HE5, but ultimately the lack of bass in the HE5 compelled me to tinker with the D7K. If you change it to an open back design and also let air properly pass through under the earpads, you allow the powerful, congested drivers to open up and blossom. 
   
   
  The Phoenix does power the HE6 okay, but I just feel that they could eat more power than the Phoenix can deliver. Of course Kingwa did not design the Phoenix for orthos. It would take a true speaker amp to take the HE6 by the scruff. But there wasn't a speaker amp at the meet, so I can't confirm this.


----------



## badwisdom

Quote: 





dukja said:


> Thanks! Good to know that.
> 
> My listening level is about 70~80 dB.  And I use 70 levels with my Phoenix (the difference on 70 & 99 was very controversial).  The level I used are:
> classical recording      modern hot recording
> ...


 

 Wow, those are insanely low levels.
   
  WIth my 2.5V source, i listen between 40 and 60 out of 99 with my LCD2.

 Cheers
  Xavier


----------



## sokolov91

Quote: 





badwisdom said:


> Wow, those are insanely low levels.
> 
> WIth my 2.5V source, i listen between 40 and 60 out of 99 with my LCD2.
> 
> ...


 

 I use 15/99 with my HD 800 that is not balanced.
   
  With my balanced LCD-2 I use about 8-10/99 via my Ref - 7
   
  I do go up as high as 25/99 with the HE-6 though.
   
  Lol 1/99 is enough for me with balanced D7000. The phoenix is a powerful amp.


----------



## seaice

Quote: 





lmswjm said:


> Actually the HE6, IMO, sounds much different and much better than a stock D7000. Before there was an HE6, I almost sold my D7K's in favor of the HE5, but ultimately the lack of bass in the HE5 compelled me to tinker with the D7K. If you change it to an open back design and also let air properly pass through under the earpads, you allow the powerful, congested drivers to open up and blossom.


 


 The discussion about the D7000 is very interesting. I owned them for several months (SE) to gave them a chance of replacing my HD800 (balanced). The stock D7000 was unacceptable (too bassy). I tried these mods but the bass peak was always there, so I sold it regardless some strengths it had. I couldn't stand them longer than an hour (nor modded)... Finally, I used the D7000 only sometimes and only for watching movies. I strongly preferred HD800 for all music.


----------



## sokolov91

Quote: 





seaice said:


> The discussion about the D7000 is very interesting. I owned them for several months (SE) to gave them a chance of replacing my HD800 (balanced). The stock D7000 was unacceptable (too bassy). I tried these mods but the bass peak was always there, so I sold them regardless some strengths it had. I couldn't stand them longer than an hour (nor modded)... My preference was substantially for HD800.


 

 Some people prefer treble spikes over bass spikes


----------



## seaice

Quote: 





sokolov91 said:


> Some people prefer treble spikes over bass spikes


 


  Yes, that's true.  I also much preferred and loved AKG701 for several years over HD600 and HD650.
   
  I recently tried LCD2 with my Phoenix, but only for one hour. It was an interesting experience. The organic sound of LCD2 really captured my attention. I hope I will have a chance to listen it longer.


----------



## vrln

I´d easily take a bass boost over a treble one, but to be honest I´ve found brightness doesn´t annoy me that much. What annoys me is the sibilance, and it often goes together with brightness


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





vrln said:


> I´d easily take a bass boost over a treble one, but to be honest I´ve found brightness doesn´t annoy me that much. What annoys me is the sibilance, and it often goes together with brightness


 

 Same here...I can generally adapt to most signatures, but sibilance is a pet hate for me.  Otherwise everything starts to to sound "realistic" and "neutral" after a while, unless it's sibilant...this condition does not occur realistically.  I find the mind remarkable at filling in blanks after a period of time.
   
  I find the K701s work like magic with the Phoenix - it organises the expansive stage and gives it better imaging making for a more coherent stage its a "bright" sound with no sibilance.  My only complaints is that it has low resolution compared to the HD800.  I wonder if anyone has paired the ATH-D2000 with the Phoenix, this can is on my radar as a bright can with no sibilance with improved resolution and smoothness over the K701, I need to hear this one as well as the HE-6.


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





ipodpj said:


> Agreed, dual 3-pin was kind of a silly idea to implement as a standard for balanced headphones, however dual 3-pin definitely has a benefit if your cable has a shield and it's tied to pin 1, so don't say it has one useless pin because that's not true.  You will notice a difference if the shield is not connected properly in the headphone cable.  You do not want a floating shield.  However, if your cable does not have a shield 4-pin is fine, unless you're like me and want to keep both channels completely isolated as is the case with the Double Helix Cables HD800 Complement.


 

 The 3 pin offers no advantages over the 4 pin at least not on the Phoenix anyway.
   
  There is a 5th tab inside the 4 pin XLR connector, this one is flat with a hole in it.  This fifth tab is connected to the connector barrel and ultimately ties to the release mechanism.  My multimeter indicated a conduction between the release tab of the 4 pin connector and the phillips head screw that attached the connector to the case.  That fifth tab is ultimately tied to ground on the Phoenix.
   
  Solder the shield wires of the HD800 onto the fifth tab of the 4 pin XLR connector.  I believe this tab was designed for the sole purpose of shielding.  Do away with the dual 3 pins completely for headphone use.  4 pin has no compromises whatsoever in any case.


----------



## sokolov91

Quote: 





sp wild said:


> Same here...I can generally adapt to most signatures, but sibilance is a pet hate for me.  Otherwise everything starts to to sound "realistic" and "neutral" after a while, unless it's sibilant...this condition does not occur realistically.  I find the mind remarkable at filling in blanks after a period of time.
> 
> I find the K701s work like magic with the Phoenix - it organises the expansive stage and gives it better imaging making for a more coherent stage its a "bright" sound with no sibilance.  My only complaints is that it has low resolution compared to the HD800.  I wonder if anyone has paired the ATH-D2000 with the Phoenix, this can is on my radar as a bright can with no sibilance with improved resolution and smoothness over the K701, I need to hear this one as well as the HE-6.


 

 Not sure the HE-6 is going to be up there in the sounstage, but the highs are certainly refreshing. Kind of like a breath of mildly cold air after being in a hot and humid place for too long.
   
  The detail will certainly be there in spades and the highs will impress many I think. A real HD 800 lovers headphone and a nice compromise between the HD 800 and LCD-2.
   
  I might be selling mine soon due to funds and lack of time to actively use all of these sexy headphones, but you should certainly try to audition the HE-6.
   
  At any rate the phoenix seems to provide ample juice as I only use 25/99 for ample volume.


----------



## Currawong

PM me if you're selling, as I am keen to try them.
   
  SP Wild: If it weren't such a nuisance to get AD2000s at a decent price here, I'd nab a pair as I suspect that the Phoenix would indeed be good for them.  I might wait for Asr's LCD-2 comparison though first.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

SP WILD I read the page you linked........from what I could understand of it it dealt with bridging a normal 2 channel amp and did not show a differential 4 channel design......hopefully someone can explain the 4 channel differential topology so a dummy such as myself can finally understand it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Like you new Avatar Curra...man is she growing fast and such a cutie...the LCD-2's look HUGE..lol.
   
  Peete.


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





pricklely peete said:


> SP WILD I read the page you linked........from what I could understand of it it dealt with bridging a normal 2 channel amp and did not show a differential 4 channel design......hopefully someone can explain the 4 channel differential topology so a dummy such as myself can finally understand it
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Same thing - stereo amp bridged for mono or quad amps bridged for stereo.
   
  Excellent discussion thread on the Sound Science forum right now about balanced amps:  http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/539458/why-balanced-headphone-amps
   
  Some excellent points raised in that thread.  The B22 does not reject common mode noise - but in fact amplifies it, while not such a bad thing reduces the effectiveness of noise rejection by the transducer - clipping of one phase of the noise can be a problem.  The Phoenix, well, according to Kingwa - each of the four ACSS modules receive a differential signal, this means the Phoenix effectively rejects common mode noise...which is the ultimate meaning of the word "balanced".
   
  I just wanted a reasonably high quality remote controlled headphone amplifier, that's what sparked my interest in the Audio GD.  But the more I learn and understand electronic engineering, the more I realise I got more than I bargained for.  There isn't a commercially available headphone amplifier that attains this level of maximum complexity, intergration, competency and total completion.  IMO the most technologically advanced headphone amplifier ever made available can be attained for a very attractive price, only from China.  I never thought the day would come when I can say something like that regarding China.
   
  On my very own, I also finally worked out how the transducer knows which direction to move when faced with a positive and a negative signal at the same time...so simple, the negative phase is fed into the negative terminal --- reversing the direction if the same signal is applied to the positive. 
   
  Currawong:  I only wish that if I do become a father one day, that it would be a boy...failing that, I hope if its a girl that she's as cute and adorable as your one...seriously, cutest avatar I have ever seen!


----------



## haloxt

Quote: 





> I just wanted a reasonably high quality remote controlled headphone amplifier, that's what sparked my interest in the Audio GD.  But the more I learn and understand electronic engineering, the more I realise I got more than I bargained for.  There isn't a commercially available headphone amplifier that attains this level of maximum complexity, intergration, competency and total completion.  IMO the most technologically advanced headphone amplifier ever made available can be attained for a very attractive price, only from China.  I never thought the day would come when I can say something like that regarding China.


 
  Audio-gd gear can have great technical complexity, but what I find even more impressive is they can make gear with specific sound signatures because of good understanding of the sound signature of individual components. Oftentimes when you ask Kingwa why he doesn't use x y z component in his gear his response will be "because the current component sounds neutral".  An analogy, not only can audio-gd cook complex dishes, they know how to season them as they would like to, or should I say with neutral gear, even to prevent the complex cooking process from imparting a flavor (color) to the food .


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote: 





sp wild said:


> Some excellent points raised in that thread.  The B22 does not reject common mode noise - but in fact amplifies it, while not such a bad thing reduces the effectiveness of noise rejection by the transducer - clipping of one phase of the noise can be a problem.  The Phoenix, well, according to Kingwa - each of the four ACSS modules receive a differential signal, this means the Phoenix effectively rejects common mode noise...which is the ultimate meaning of the word "balanced".


 

 This is true.  Only the B24 speaker amp is fully differential and has common mode noise rejection.  The B22 does not, natively.  However you could put balancing input transformers on the input of the B22 to get a differential signal.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote: 





sp wild said:


> Same thing - stereo amp bridged for mono or quad amps bridged for stereo.
> 
> Excellent discussion thread on the Sound Science forum right now about balanced amps:  http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/539458/why-balanced-headphone-amps
> 
> ...


 

 Thanks for the link 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, twas an interesting read and it did help clear up a few things for me SP...As far as Kingwa's gear is concerned I did and do realize that his designs left no corners cut so to speak and it was one of the biggest draws I had to the brand...a few years back when Curra and I were feverishly trading emails back and forth about the merits of the RE1 DAC we both came to same conclusions about the design topology (to the best of our understanding at that time) of the DAC as being very very good...as for the SQ's that's a subjective matter but from a technical standpoint his unique approach is what had us excited (and still impressed by). The Phoenix came about after Curra did some gentle prodding about building a head amp worthy of the ACSS outputs from the RE1 DAC. The rest is recent history as it were 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  On another note I finally finished the last piece of the MAX mod series (the CD7 transport overhaul)...I'm loving the improvement 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 but need to give the parts some decent cook time. Having used the Mundorf  M'Lytic mains caps in the RE1 MAX mod I know further improvemnet is in store as the parts break in (form). I should have a decent grasp of the details in a few weeks. Certainly well worth the 100USD in parts.
   
  Peete.


----------



## Currawong

Peete, I didn't prod him at all. I simply asked an ignorant question about balanced amps (at the time I had no idea, to be honest). A month later he emails me to say he designed one!


----------



## SoupRKnowva

anyone know if the phoenix is fully differential? i may have gotten too excited reading the previously linked thread


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





souprknowva said:


> anyone know if the phoenix is fully differential? i may have gotten too excited reading the previously linked thread


 


  Indeed it is fully differential.  When using a balanced Audio GD dac with a chip that is native in current output, it is differentially balanced into the amp in current mode (look up why current transmission is better than voltage transmission - interference rejection is superior).  This is more comprehensive than Krells own technique (DAC chip single ended, then conversion to balanced in the DAC, as opposed to AGD balance out in current mode straight from the chips). 
   
  Its a technical master piece in terms of electronic engineering, whether the voicing is to your taste is up to you to decide!


----------



## lmswjm

Quote: 





currawong said:


> Peete, I didn't prod him at all. I simply asked an ignorant question about balanced amps (at the time I had no idea, to be honest). A month later he emails me to say he designed one!


 

 In late 2008, I prodded him to convert one of his existing balanced preamps to a headamp by possibly switching modules. I needed to integrate a headamp with my pro-audio gear via XLR's. At the time, I was using a Rudistor RPX-33 with RCA to XLR adapted cables that I wasn't happy with. Ultimately he told me to keep my shirt on and he'd have a better designed one to do both head and pre-amp jobs for less money..........just a few months later, he was rolling them out.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote: 





currawong said:


> Peete, I didn't prod him at all. I simply asked an ignorant question about balanced amps (at the time I had no idea, to be honest). A month later he emails me to say he designed one!


 


  I stand corrected....
   
  Peete.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote: 





lmswjm said:


> In late 2008, I prodded him to convert one of his existing balanced preamps to a headamp by possibly switching modules. I needed to integrate a headamp with my pro-audio gear via XLR's. At the time, I was using a Rudistor RPX-33 with RCA to XLR adapted cables that I wasn't happy with. Ultimately he told me to keep my shirt on and he'd have a better designed one to do both head and pre-amp jobs for less money..........just a few months later, he was rolling them out.


 


  I knew it was _someone_ around here, my mind must be slipping
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 ...thanks B !!!!
   
  Peete.


----------



## lmswjm

I'm sure I wasn't the only one bugging him......
   
  Then after hearing the Phoenix, I had to get the Ref1 and CD7. I'm still amazed that since then, Kingwa has cured my upgraditis.......I am healed.........


----------



## sokolov91

Quote: 





lmswjm said:


> I'm sure I wasn't the only one bugging him......
> 
> Then after hearing the Phoenix, I had to get the Ref1 and CD7. I'm still amazed that since then, Kingwa has cured my upgraditis.......I am healed.........


 


  I am resisting the  CD7 but x2 about Phoenix and Ref - 7. I am done.


----------



## mtntrance

Received my Phoenix today.  I am having to listen to it single ended because my balanced cable has not arrived yet.  I noticed an immediate difference with my 650s.  They opened up more and I heard a little more of everything in the upper end.  I am looking forward to receiving an NFB-8 and going completely balanced.  The chassis of the Phoenix blows away my C2 and the C2 wasn't bad.  Listening to Alison Krauss and Union Station right now...so smooth on the Phoenix and I wonder where that HD 650 veil is?  Of course I wondered what people were talking about with the veil before plugging into the Phoenix too.


----------



## tamahome77

I have the C-2 amp with the RE-1/CD7 combo.  Have been curious  about the phoenix for a while.  How does the C-2 compare the the phoenix sonically?  Some initial impressions would be great!


----------



## AustinHorn

Quote: 





mtntrance said:


> Received my Phoenix today.  I am having to listen to it single ended because my balanced cable has not arrived yet.  I noticed an immediate difference with my 650s.  They opened up more and I heard a little more of everything in the upper end.  I am looking forward to receiving an NFB-8 and going completely balanced.  The chassis of the Phoenix blows away my C2 and the C2 wasn't bad.  Listening to Alison Krauss and Union Station right now...so smooth on the Phoenix and I wonder where that HD 650 veil is?  Of course I wondered what people were talking about with the veil before plugging into the Phoenix too.


 
  You haven't heard anything yet! Wait until your Phoenix & your balanced HD650 cable, once it arrives, are both broken in properly.  There is a HUGE improvement in balanced mode - H-U-G-E!!!!! You only think you've heard your HD650 open up! They are a different headphone running balanced on the Phoenix.


----------



## mtntrance

Quote: 





tamahome77 said:


> I have the C-2 amp with the RE-1/CD7 combo.  Have been curious  about the phoenix for a while.  How does the C-2 compare the the phoenix sonically?  Some initial impressions would be great!


 


  So far I am pretty impressed and I am sure some of how I am hearing may be due that new gear psychological syndrome?  Listening to a recording of live music "Go To Nassau" by the Grateful Dead right now.  Sound stage seems wider.  Overall resolution seems improved and the bass is deeper and tighter than I remember on the C2-still using a DAC 19 DSP 1 as a source.  I have no need to increase the volume from low as I am hearing everything.    The high end is more 3 dimensional-cymbals have a nice decay.  Mid range tones of drums seem fuller.  I understand what the phrase listener fatigue means now because the Phoenix is effortless.  Its interesting on a different poorer recording I heard new unpleasant things I hadn't heard before either.   The remote on the Phoenix is first rate too.  I also wasn't expecting a switch on the back to defeat the display either.  Kingwa is a Jedi~


----------



## mtntrance

Quote: 





austinhorn said:


> You haven't heard anything yet! Wait until your Phoenix & your balanced HD650 cable, once it arrives, are both broken in properly.  There is a HUGE improvement in balanced mode - H-U-G-E!!!!! You only think you've heard your HD650 open up! They are a different headphone running balanced on the Phoenix.


 

 I am excited because this upgrade is already meeting and exceeding expectations.  Off topic but Austin is my hometown hook-em and beat Baylor Saturday!


----------



## tamahome77

Interesting initial impressions.  I must resist upgrade...must 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  mtntrance, the unpleasant things that you hear on poorer recordings, is sibilance more prominent on the phoenix than on the c-2?


----------



## mtntrance

Quote: 





tamahome77 said:


> Interesting initial impressions.  I must resist upgrade...must
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


  Too early to tell as I am just still at about two hours of listening.  Listening to a high quality recording of John Williams classical music now and no sibilance yet.  The poor recording was of live music probably audience recording with two mics versus a soundboard and at 256k.  Miles Davis "So What" will be a good test because on good gear it can sounds harsh at times because he was mic-ed too close.  Seems like you already got your sources so I would think the Phoenix or what ever Kingwa replaces it with someday is likely in your future.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote: 





mtntrance said:


> Too early to tell as I am just still at about two hours of listening.  Listening to a high quality recording of John Williams classical music now and no sibilance yet.  The poor recording was of live music probably audience recording with two mics versus a soundboard and at 256k.  Miles Davis "So What" will be a good test because on good gear it can sounds harsh at times because he was mic-ed too close.  Seems like you already got your sources so I would think the Phoenix or what ever Kingwa replaces it with someday is likely in your future.


 
   
   
  Your assumption is correct (too early to tell) ......with such fresh electronics it's hard to tell what is recording artifact and burn in process with Kingwa's higher end stuff. The changes the Phoenix will go through as you put more and more hours on it should make themselves known (as long as you use a fav piece every day to evaluate any changes). Some folks report burn in changes while others are more skeptical about such things...Personally I feel A-gd gear (the high end stuff) has a distinct quite noticeable maturation process that usually concludes around the 400 hour mark (300 hours home use since the Factory burns in it's gear for 100 hours before shipment).
   
  Ah is correct the leap from SE'd to balanced using the ACSS pathway should be another big eye opener. Personally I've not noticed the so called 650 veil...I use an aftermarket DIY SPC cable terminated in a 4 pin XLR (the kit A-gd supplies is what I used for the conversion of my SE'd DIY cable to balanced). I observe no veil at all. It might be a case of first gen 650 drivers vs the updated units shipping the last 2+ years and a system oriented observation (using a dark amp/dark dac and the stock copper 650 cable). Just IMO as far as that goes.
   
  Welcome to the club bub  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Peete.


----------



## tim3320070

I may be selling mine- I am getting the C39 with HP output and can't imagine that's a downgrade. It will have less output though which is fine.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote: 





tim3320070 said:


> I may be selling mine- I am getting the C39 with HP output and can't imagine that's a downgrade. It will have less output though which is fine.


 


  IMO the superior piece to the Phoenix would be the C-3FV and _not_ the C 39..Going with the 39 may or may not be any better than the Phoenix...I could be wrong of course...my advice though is you save up the couple hundred extra for the 3FV, it's worth the extra. FYI the PSU for the Phoenix is nearly identical to the C-3FV...the difference is in the FV's amp section....If you study the 39 it does not have the same level of complexity and may be exactly the same as the Phoenix (minus the head amp section). Better to be sure before making the decision and placing an order.
   
  Peete.


----------



## tim3320070

Understood but it has ACSS output for my upcoming C10 amp. I may inquire about C3 though. Thanks.


----------



## SteveM324

I purchased a balanced DHC Molecule cable for my HD650.  I'm using a single ended adapter cable to burn-in the cable since I am still waiting for my Phoenix to arrive.

  
  Quote: 





mtntrance said:


> I am curious about you balanced cable decisions for the HD650.  I am not a believer in cable sound signatures but dont mind paying a reasonable amount for a quality built balanced cable.  I am also considering in building my own.


----------



## SP Wild

Just for laughs, I tried my Sennheisser PX100s on the Phoenix and R7 combo.  It wasn't very funny at all, the PX100 once amped sounded like a sidegrade to the HD650s to me...one thing that is certain in my mind is that the PX100s have no cup resonance and the HD650 does.
   
  I'm gonna pop down to my electronic store, buy some mini four pin XLRs and snip the PX100s at the Y section and connect the mini XLRs...then I will make a custom balanced cable for the mini XLR adaptor.  Then connect the left over PX100 cable to another adaptor, so the PX100 can still be used portable.  Yup balanced PX100s.


----------



## tamahome77

No kidding.  I've tried my px100 on my b22 and was amazed at how good it sounded.  Suprised at how good it scaled with better equipment.
   
  A question here.  Would getting the C-3 final version preamp fed to the C-2 amp be a better sounding option than getting the phoenix alone to drive my headphones?


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





tamahome77 said:


> No kidding.  I've tried my px100 on my b22 and was amazed at how good it sounded.  Suprised at how good it scaled with better equipment.
> 
> A question here.  Would getting the C-3 final version preamp fed to the C-2 amp be a better sounding option than getting the phoenix alone to drive my headphones?


 

 The only reason to get the AGD pre-amp over the Phoenix would be if you have an AGD power amp and want to connect the power amp with ACSS.  The Phoenix is also a hi-end pre-amp as that is its DNA (for a preamp the Phoenix has a superior topology to the C39 preamp), but specifically tailored for headphone use and in doing so sacrifices ACSS pre-amp output, which is only useful with Krell or AGD power amplifiers.  Any other power amplifiers and the Phoenix is a better pre-amp than the C39 - I think that is what Kingwa said, worth an email to confirm.  There is also nothing to suggest that the C3FV (perhaps the only model that is better than the Phoenix as a preamp) will bet better than the Phoenix as a headphone amplifier.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote: 





tim3320070 said:


> Understood but it has ACSS output for my upcoming C10 amp. I may inquire about C3 though. Thanks.


 


  The C3FV and C10SE would be an excellent pairing. Yeah the _only_ drawback to the Phoenix in a traditional sense is the lack of an ACSS output...doesn't bother me that much though since I don't have any A-gd amps (yet).
   
  Peete.


----------



## tim3320070

I actually changed my order to the C3 as I found an old email from Kingwa stating he thought the C39 as a headphone amp was not as good as the Phoenix (I had misunderstood him at the time), but that the preamp via ACSS would be better. I don't want any downgrade at all, too spoiled at this point.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote: 





tim3320070 said:


> I actually changed my order to the C3 as I found an old email from Kingwa stating he thought the C39 as a headphone amp was not as good as the Phoenix (I had misunderstood him at the time), but that the preamp via ACSS would be better. I don't want any downgrade at all, too spoiled at this point.


 


  Wise decision......how long will the headphone mod add to the build/delivery date ?
   
  Peete.


----------



## tim3320070

I don't know. It's been a while since the order but Kingwa has been good to me and it's worth the wait. Your comment motivated me to change the order. I remember going from the Roc to the Phoenix and hearing the soundstage widen very perceptively and in a positive way. Hoping the C3 is similar in this regard. The Phoenix has this 3D sound effect that is very compelling with well recorded material. More parts can't hurt IMO.


----------



## elwappo99

Quote: 





tim3320070 said:


> I don't know. It's been a while since the order but Kingwa has been good to me and it's worth the wait. Your comment motivated me to change the order. I remember going from the Roc to the Phoenix and hearing the soundstage widen very perceptively and in a positive way. Hoping the C3 is similar in this regard. The Phoenix has this 3D sound effect that is very compelling with well recorded material. More parts can't hurt IMO.


 


  Very interesting to read this.... I think I may be trying to make the jump from my ROC to a Phoenix, as I've been thinking of it for some time.


----------



## tim3320070

It's subtle so don't think you're getting a massive improvement. The bigger improvement is when it's used as a preamp.
  My main reason for going to the C3 is the ACSS output to an amp for speaker use.


----------



## mtntrance

I have to share the pain.  My balanced cable was supposed to be delivered by USPS today as I got a Phoenix new on Thursday.  I saw the postman when I was at the pool with the family.  He didn't deliver and when I checked the tracking it said it was delivered.  So frustrating.  I have to open a case with USPS for a claim because if it really was delivered it was not to me.  I will probably be looking at a minimum of 2 weeks before I get to hear my Phoenix balanced.  At least it will have time to burn in.


----------



## elwappo99

Quote: 





mtntrance said:


> I have to share the pain.  My balanced cable was supposed to be delivered by USPS today as I got a Phoenix new on Thursday.  I saw the postman when I was at the pool with the family.  He didn't deliver and when I checked the tracking it said it was delivered.  So frustrating.  I have to open a case with USPS for a claim because if it really was delivered it was not to me.  I will probably be looking at a minimum of 2 weeks before I get to hear my Phoenix balanced.  At least it will have time to burn in.


 


  That sucks, total let down....


----------



## SP Wild

I have completed my awesome looking DIY balanced extension cable for the PX100s for use with the Phoenix balance!
   
   
   

   
  I thought I would terminate the PX100s with a mini XLR at the Y junction, I mean who the hell wants a big fat full size XLR in the way when using and Ipod for instance...genuis or what?


----------



## SP Wild

What about the finished product? I hear you ask.  errr...hmmm....didn't quite work out as I imagined it to.
   
   

   
  Soldering these exact same galvanised conductors as found on the HD650 was a lot easier with a full size XLR...the mini XLR melts away like that in an attempt to get a secure connection.  I then thought the only way out of this predicament was to eliminate these crappy galavanised copper at the transducer and do a full recable with regular copper...big mistake...the housing is glued together and I busted them in frustration.
   
  I have purchased another PX100 coming from a good forum member. 
   
  Why all the hassles?
   
  Because, shoot me for saying this.  These transducers are noticeably quicker than the HD650, the PX100 has no detectable cup resonances.  The stage is smaller but more 3 dimensional with better imaging, accuracy and layering...all wrapped up in a cosy and bassy signature reminiscent of the D7000s but with a full and inviting midrange and without the irritating and splashy treble...with better imaging, dimesionality and no cup resonance.


----------



## lmswjm

Tough luck...........I remember hearing my PX100 for the first time SE on the Phoenix thinking that they had no business sounding that good. Turning up the volume too much caused the bass to fall apart though, unlike a real headphone. Better luck next time.....


----------



## SP Wild

True, they don't handle a lot of power and can be easily clipped when driven to enthusiastic high volume headbang sessions, fortunately the D7000s serve brilliantly for all out DB assaults on the ear drums.  But non fatigue background and moderate volumes, they seem to shame all bar the fastest of dynamics, if one has no issues with its bottom skewed tonality.
   
  Nah, I will not risk re-terminating my next pair of PX100s until I research a little more on how to solder these darned galvanised cables.


----------



## tim3320070

I can't switch my order of the C39 to the C3 until someone buys the C39 which they already started to build.
  If anyone is looking for a C39 with ready to go headphone output, contact Kingwa as it can be done in a few days.
  Thanks


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote: 





tim3320070 said:


> I can't switch my order of the C39 to the C3 until someone buys the C39 which they already started to build.
> If anyone is looking for a C39 with ready to go headphone output, contact Kingwa as it can be done in a few days.
> Thanks


 


   
  Wow that's a bit of a bummer...hopefully someone will oblige and you can switch to the C-3FV.
   

  
  Quote: 





sp wild said:


> True, they don't handle a lot of power and can be easily clipped when driven to enthusiastic high volume headbang sessions, fortunately the D7000s serve brilliantly for all out DB assaults on the ear drums.  But non fatigue background and moderate volumes, they seem to shame all bar the fastest of dynamics, if one has no issues with its bottom skewed tonality.
> 
> Nah, I will not risk re-terminating my next pair of PX100s until I research a little more on how to solder these darned galvanised cables.


 


  What about tossing the stock cable and going with a custom job ? 5N or 6N copper from PCX is pretty cheap...a 6 or 7ft cable could be built for around 45 USD (roughly speaking) which includes teflon tubing, copper mesh shielding and tech flex (or cotton tubing) for the outer jacket and some adhesive backed shrink tubing (also from PCX) to finish her off properly. Might be able to salvage your original cans going this route and have the second set as back up. Something to think about at least...
   
  Peete.


----------



## odyssey

Hooray, After some 1 month plus of browsing and pouring through hundreds of pages in this forum, I finally decided and placed an order for a Phoenix (w/Occ wires) to pair with my HE6 and LCD2 + a NFB12 for my kid's room. Thanks to the many impressions and advice given by fellow forumers here.


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





pricklely peete said:


> What about tossing the stock cable and going with a custom job ? 5N or 6N copper from PCX is pretty cheap...a 6 or 7ft cable could be built for around 45 USD (roughly speaking) which includes teflon tubing, copper mesh shielding and tech flex (or cotton tubing) for the outer jacket and some adhesive backed shrink tubing (also from PCX) to finish her off properly. Might be able to salvage your original cans going this route and have the second set as back up. Something to think about at least...
> 
> Peete.


 

 That's how I busted the PX100s, trying to eliminate the hard to solder galvanised cables.  The housing was superglued together and not meant to be able to dismantle.  What surprised me was the fact that the conductors were identical to the HD650 conductors, only in the HD650 cable, the rubber sheathing is thicker.


----------



## gogogasgas

Following the excellent posts on the Phoenix, including detailed information on XLR connector and silver wire modifications, I am slowly getting the pieces together for my take on a modified Phoenix. The XLRs, silver solder and silver wire are now winging their way to China...
   
  However, the CAST connector/socket has me beat. From the posts in this thread, I gather that you replace the MALE CAST that is on the unit (left hand picture) with a LEMO female (right hand picture). Is this correct? I have attached pictures of the CAST connector as it would normally be supplied on the unit (left) and the LEMO one I am after (right).
   
  Assuming I am correct and I need to get the LEMO unit as pictured, where do I find this thing? I emailed a supplier who was suggested on this thread. He replied saying he can't supply it because LEMO require large minimum orders. Most importantly, does anyone know a PART NUMBER for the LEMO CAST connector?
   
  CAST as supplied on Phoenix (left)   LEMO CAST (right)


----------



## SoupRKnowva

http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/416120/audio-gd-reference-1-dac-56-k-warning/390#post_5674965
   
  les garten made a post about it quite a while ago in the ref1 thread


----------



## les_garten

Quote: 





souprknowva said:


> http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/416120/audio-gd-reference-1-dac-56-k-warning/390#post_5674965
> 
> les garten made a post about it quite a while ago in the ref1 thread


 


   
  Man!   You found that quick!
   
  My DAD did his Grad Log degree at WPAFB, a LONG time ago.


----------



## les_garten

Quote: 





gogogasgas said:


> Following the excellent posts on the Phoenix, including detailed information on XLR connector and silver wire modifications, I am slowly getting the pieces together for my take on a modified Phoenix. The XLRs, silver solder and silver wire are now winging their way to China...
> 
> However, the CAST connector/socket has me beat. From the posts in this thread, I gather that you replace the MALE CAST that is on the unit (left hand picture) with a LEMO female (right hand picture). Is this correct? I have attached pictures of the CAST connector as it would normally be supplied on the unit (left) and the LEMO one I am after (right).
> 
> ...


 

 If you go this route, send all the connectors, even the ones for the cables to KW.  Those LEMOs are a Bee-Atch to terminate.


----------



## Currawong

Mini-XLR works well too.


----------



## gogogasgas

Thanks, Les et al. It just dawned on me that you might have been referring to REF1 in your post. Is it still a *FEMALE *Lemo CAST connector I need to go on the Phoenix?


----------



## SoupRKnowva

Quote: 





les_garten said:


> Man!   You found that quick!
> 
> My DAD did his Grad Log degree at WPAFB, a LONG time ago.


 

 hahaha thats cause i cheated les, i bookmarked it forever ago when i was reading through the Ref1 thread


----------



## les_garten

Quote: 





gogogasgas said:


> Thanks, Les et al. It just dawned on me that you might have been referring to REF1 in your post. Is it still a *FEMALE *Lemo CAST connector I need to go on the Phoenix?


 


   
  Males go on the cable ends, Females on the gear.  I'm connecting my REF 1 to my Phoenix.  I sent the LEMOs to KW to put on the chassis.  I made the cable.  It was a major problem to terminate them, and I screwed up one of the and had to order another one.  They aren't cheap!  But buy one from KRELL, who uses Mogami cable BTW.  My cable costs about $60 percable for the same thing from Krell, a couple Thousand!
   
  Currawong is correct, mini XLR is the way I would go today.
   
  You can fit much larger gauge wire in those connectors.  
   
  One thing is, the LEMOs sure feel and work nice, no doubt about that.


----------



## gogogasgas

The Mini-XLR option is not a bad idea. Is the pin count the same as the Lemo?
   
  This might be all moot since I just got an email from Audio GD saying they can longer do my special order! This is AFTER I had got a "yes" from Kingwa AND I had sent XLR cables, silver wire etc to China! I am now waiting on a response from my last email to Audio GD. Not happy.


----------



## les_garten

Quote: 





gogogasgas said:


> The Mini-XLR option is not a bad idea. Is the pin count the same as the Lemo?
> 
> This might be all moot since I just got an email from Audio GD saying they can longer do my special order! This is AFTER I had got a "yes" from Kingwa AND I had sent XLR cables, silver wire etc to China! I am now waiting on a response from my last email to Audio GD. Not happy.


 


   
  Well,  if you knew some of the crap he has put up with regards Custom Orders, you would understand it.  Also, he may have got so successful here that he has decided the agravation ain't worth it anymore now that his name is established.
   
  I would think he would finish any commitments has made.


----------



## gogogasgas

Yes, I've had a reply from China and indeed you are correct. It's about Audio GD clients and their custom orders - that is, customers changing their minds and not wanting to go ahead with their 'special' orders once they have started, or finished the order! Most of the Audio GD range is made to order. Add 'custom' requests and then changes of mind/heart into the equation and I can see why they get a little concerned.
   
  That being said, and considering that I now have a small window of opportunity to change MY mind because of circumstance - I hope there isn't a new version of the Phoenix (or a superior model) coming out soon - any news on that front?


----------



## les_garten

Quote: 





gogogasgas said:


> Yes, I've had a reply from China and indeed you are correct. It's about Audio GD clients and their custom orders - that is, customers changing their minds and not wanting to go ahead with their 'special' orders once they have started, or finished the order! Most of the Audio GD range is made to order. Add 'custom' requests and then changes of mind/heart into the equation and I can see why they get a little concerned.
> 
> That being said, and considering that I now have a small window of opportunity to change MY mind because of circumstance - I hope there isn't a new version of the Phoenix (or a superior model) coming out soon - any news on that front?


 


   
  Well, I'm not tuned into that.  But the Phoenix has not really chnaged since it's inception.  It is a C-3 Preamp that has been optimized/tweaked to be a Head amp, and minus the ACSS output.
   
  I don't see a change ahead, but KW is not into using the Telegraph as a marketing tool.  So, he's pretty much into Surprise.


----------



## gogogasgas

Thanks, Les. I am still waiting to hear back from China.


----------



## SoupRKnowva

So since this is one of the more Active Audio-GD threads, does anyone know whats up with the new Master Series Pre-Amp that kingwa's putting out? its cheaper, and only has one case, is it supposed to be better than the C-3FV??


----------



## les_garten

Quote: 





souprknowva said:


> So since this is one of the more Active Audio-GD threads, does anyone know whats up with the new Master Series Pre-Amp that kingwa's putting out? its cheaper, and only has one case, is it supposed to be better than the C-3FV??


 


  This is a no teasing zone!  You know that...
   
  Let's hear the details, I haven't heard about this.  I have been thinking about a C-3/C-1 Master combo though.


----------



## IPodPJ

Guys,
  There will be no more old-style ACSS connectors.  All new models will be outfit with 4-pin XLR jacks, as I understand it.  Or at the very least, all the Master products and the RE7.1 will have them.


----------



## SoupRKnowva

Quote: 





les_garten said:


> This is a no teasing zone!  You know that...
> 
> Let's hear the details, I haven't heard about this.  I have been thinking about a C-3/C-1 Master combo though.


 

 have you not been to the site in a while? He's got a whole new section for his New Master series of products that are coming out soon, http://www.audio-gd.com/En%20Master.htm , the preamp is a couple hundred cheaper than the C3FV though, but the Master 2 Power amp is like 800 hundred dollars more than the C1 master


----------



## les_garten

Quote: 





souprknowva said:


> have you not been to the site in a while? He's got a whole new section for his New Master series of products that are coming out soon, http://www.audio-gd.com/En%20Master.htm , the preamp is a couple hundred cheaper than the C3FV though, but the Master 2 Power amp is like 800 hundred dollars more than the C1 master


 

 Hmmm, I had not seen that.
   
  I haven't downloaded the jpg's, but the Master 1 and Master 2 look VERY close.
   
  The C-3 going into one chassis for the Master kinda makes sense.  There is a lot of wasted space in the 2 Chassis of the C-3FV


----------



## SoupRKnowva

Quote: 





les_garten said:


> Hmmm, I had not seen that.
> 
> I haven't downloaded the jpg's, but the Master 1 and Master 2 look VERY close.
> 
> The C-3 going into one chassis for the Master kinda makes sense.  There is a lot of wasted space in the 2 Chassis of the C-3FV


 
  i agree on them looking very close, its liek the upgrade from the ref7 to the 7.1 though, there arent any more of the ACSS modules, its all just components on the circuit board. but as far as i know he isnt getting rid of the C1, so there must be something different to warrant the price hike. like better transistors, cause he makes a point to saying which transistors he's using on the master 2 page, and hes using the better wireing, though that certainly wouldnt account for much of the cost increase


----------



## les_garten

Quote: 





souprknowva said:


> i agree on them looking very close, its liek the upgrade from the ref7 to the 7.1 though, there arent any more of the ACSS modules, its all just components on the circuit board. but as far as i know he isnt getting rid of the C1, so there must be something different to warrant the price hike. like better transistors, cause he makes a point to saying which transistors he's using on the master 2 page, and hes using the better wireing, though that certainly wouldnt account for much of the cost increase


 

 Yeah, $800 is a pretty significant increase in price.


----------



## SoupRKnowva

Quote: 





les_garten said:


> Yeah, $800 is a pretty significant increase in price.


 

 oh definitely, but kingwa isnt the type to charge more just for kicks though, so there must be improvements and we just arent seeing them. at least i hope so


----------



## Currawong

I've been tossing up the idea of sacrificing one set of XLR inputs to make them the ACSS inputs instead.  I could, in this case, either swap them with 4-pin XLRs and re-wire, or use 3-pin XLRs as 4 pins aren't necessary and it would allow me to use existing cables.  The problem would be drilling larger holes in the back plate of my Ref 1 if I wanted to do the same with it.


----------



## SP Wild

If it was me, I would e-mail Kingwa to ask him what would happen if you input an ACSS into a conventional XLR input.  If he says that it wouldn't affect the circuitry by possibility of circuit damage, then I would go with the 3 pin XLR for ACSS, because the time will come when I accidentally plug a modded 3 pin XLR ACSS into a normal XLR input. 
   
  If the ACSS signal can damage a conventional input, I would opt for a four pin XLR, so there is no possibility of any mix ups.
   
  But then again, the new ACSS that are now supplied look like hi-end cables, nice and fat with a tech flex covering, they are very hi end looking now and I am very happy to continue to use the supplied ACSS cables, but it would be nice to try something different to see how the sonics might be perceived differently.


----------



## vrln

Kingwa told me in an email a few weeks or so ago that the new MASTER-1 preamp sounds a little bit better in his opinion than the C3-FV. The reason why both are in production is because the MASTER-1 is a fixed system, and the C3-FV is more modular. The C3-FV can use different modules as tweaks (one for headphones etc).


----------



## Currawong

Quote: 





sp wild said:


> If it was me, I would e-mail Kingwa to ask him what would happen if you input an ACSS into a conventional XLR input.  If he says that it wouldn't affect the circuitry by possibility of circuit damage, then I would go with the 3 pin XLR for ACSS, because the time will come when I accidentally plug a modded 3 pin XLR ACSS into a normal XLR input.
> 
> If the ACSS signal can damage a conventional input, I would opt for a four pin XLR, so there is no possibility of any mix ups.
> 
> But then again, the new ACSS that are now supplied look like hi-end cables, nice and fat with a tech flex covering, they are very hi end looking now and I am very happy to continue to use the supplied ACSS cables, but it would be nice to try something different to see how the sonics might be perceived differently.


 

 ACSS only uses 3 wires, same as XLR. I don't think a mistake in connecting would damage anything. 3-pin XLR connections would certainly give me more options at the moment.


----------



## vrln

If there is no risk to damage the equiptment by connecting to the wrong socket, I also agree that they should start using 3-pin XLR for ACSS. It´s a fantastic standard and has the best "feel" in my experience.


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





currawong said:


> ACSS only uses 3 wires, same as XLR. I don't think a mistake in connecting would damage anything. 3-pin XLR connections would certainly give me more options at the moment.


 
   
  What I meant, was to make sure that if you were to accidentally connect a current output into a voltage input that it wouldn't cause anything to go berserk, like if the headphone was still connected with the volume on by accident.  Otherwise, I agree with you that 3 pin XLR would be perfect.


----------



## SoupRKnowva

Quote: 





vrln said:


> Kingwa told me in an email a few weeks or so ago that the new MASTER-1 preamp sounds a little bit better in his opinion than the C3-FV. The reason why both are in production is because the MASTER-1 is a fixed system, and the C3-FV is more modular. The C3-FV can use different modules as tweaks (one for headphones etc).


 


  thanks for the info vrln  i was hoping someone else had asked him the same question i was thinking


----------



## winzzz

so the c3 FV is better than the phoenix as a headphone amp ?


----------



## haloxt

Quote: 





winzzz said:


> so the c3 FV is better than the phoenix as a headphone amp ?


 
  I doubt there would be much difference, probably about the same. Ask Kingwa if you want to know for sure. There are two sure differences though, C3-FV has modules for changing the sound signature, but it also costs more. The Phoenix was supposed to go for $1330 then Kingwa decided to lower it permanently to 1200, so the price gap between C3-FV and phoenix does not mean there is a big difference between the two. Several other of their headphone related products have been similarly discounted, whereas their dac's and speaker amp's that have been discounted go back to regular price soon after. If you don't need acss for speaker amp, go phoenix instead of C3-FV.
   
  And if you want to know why phoenix has no acss output to speaker amp, it's because audio-gd would kill their preamp sales if they did it that way. I can't blame them, they have really been catering to the headphone community with discounts while their non-headphone preamps and speaker amps don't get the same discounts. If you really want acss output on your phoenix though, consider asking audio-gd if they would put acss output on it for extra cost .


----------



## les_garten

I asked KW about a C-3 witth Headphones out, and whether it would be like the Phoenix.  His answer was no.  The C-3 would have to be modified for the Headamp out and that it would cause a few issues with it as a Preamp.  Nothing that couldn't be surmounted, but that there may be limitations with the C-3 and how it mated up to gear in the future if it was setup as a Headamp.


----------



## elwappo99

I have some of those ACSS. I also got some ACSS connectors from Kingwa and used a variety of wires. I usually found some mild improvements by changing out of this 'stock' cable. But it is rather good in it's own right.
  
  Quote: 





sp wild said:


> But then again, the new ACSS that are now supplied look like hi-end cables, nice and fat with a tech flex covering, they are very hi end looking now and I am very happy to continue to use the supplied ACSS cables, but it would be nice to try something different to see how the sonics might be perceived differently.


----------



## mtntrance

When using the remote on the Phoenix and when adjusting volume with it, do you are hear a click through the headphones? The effect is intermittent and barely audible.  Its not even bothersome I am just curious.  Thanks.


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





mtntrance said:


> When using the remote on the Phoenix and when adjusting volume with it, do you are hear a click through the headphones? The effect is intermittent and barely audible.  Its not even bothersome I am just curious.  Thanks.


 

 Yeah, happens to mine on some volume settings...didn't seem like a cause for complaint to me as I never heard it as a malfunction.


----------



## Currawong

The clicking will go away with use. Run your volume control up and down a couple of dozen times and see if that helps.


----------



## mtntrance

Quote: 





currawong said:


> The clicking will go away with use. Run your volume control up and down a couple of dozen times and see if that helps.


 


  Thanks, even if it stays it is not a big deal or malfunction to me either though it is nice to get some reassurance.  Off topic, having lived in Tokyo, my thoughts are with the people of Nippon and I am glad you and your family are safe.


----------



## vrln

The clicking will get less loud with time, but I think some clicking will stay for good. It´s just something that comes with all relay-based discrete volume control mechanisms. Personally I tend to think of it as a reminder that it´s not a cheap volume pot  No channel imbalance ever...


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote: 





vrln said:


> The clicking will get less loud with time, but I think some clicking will stay for good. It´s just something that comes with all relay-based discrete volume control mechanisms. Personally I tend to think of it as a reminder that it´s not a cheap volume pot  No channel imbalance ever...


 
   
  I don't ever remember hearing any clicking through my headphones when I adjusted the volume when I had the Phoenix.


----------



## ford2

Quote: 





vrln said:


> The clicking will get less loud with time, but I think some clicking will stay for good. It´s just something that comes with all relay-based discrete volume control mechanisms. Personally I tend to think of it as a reminder that it´s not a cheap volume pot  No channel imbalance ever...


 


 A good pot will not have an imbalance to note.
   
  Give me a pot over a clicking any day,would end up driving me up the wall.


----------



## SP Wild

99 steps of perfectly tracking steps.  Name me another commercial product that can make such a boast...love that remote too.  Clicking...I ain't heard nothin.


----------



## mtntrance

The clicking is barely discernable when it does occur.  I was just curious if anyone else had ever noticed anything.  I will take the Phoenix pot over the one in my C-2.
   
  The remote rocks, in fact its a thing of beauty to hold in your hand and operate.
   
  Just got my NFB-8 yesterday.  I have never been happier with audio gear than that which I have received from audio gd though the LCD-2 is right up there in terms of satisfaction.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote: 





ford2 said:


> A good pot will not have an imbalance to note.
> 
> Give me a pot over a clicking any day,would end up driving me up the wall.


 


  Pots degrade over use and time and they do have imbalance issues (compared to the relay type) unless you've taken _great pains_ to match your stepped attenuators resistor pairs within .1 % or less...that being said it's a mechanical device that will wear out it's contacts or the resistive material under the wiper blades eventually (although such degradation happens slowly over a long period of time it effects SQ of the unit overall)...the relay based unit will not wear out nor will it degrade which is why it's such a good choice and I wish more manufacturers would use this system. The pots used in the Phoenix for tracking the vol up or down and changing the source are another story (well documented in this thread) but they can be replaced without costing an arm and a leg. The only way to get the vol out of the signal path is to do it the way Kingwa has or go with a _very_ expensive stepped unit in a shunt configuration.
   
  Peete.


----------



## ford2

Quote: 





pricklely peete said:


> Pots degrade over use and time and they do have imbalance issues (compared to the relay type) unless you've taken _great pains_ to match your stepped attenuators resistor pairs within .1 % or less...that being said it's a mechanical device that will wear out it's contacts or the resistive material under the wiper blades eventually (although such degradation happens slowly over a long period of time it effects SQ of the unit overall)...the relay based unit will not wear out nor will it degrade which is why it's such a good choice and I wish more manufacturers would use this system. The pots used in the Phoenix for tracking the vol up or down and changing the source are another story (well documented in this thread) but they can be replaced without costing an arm and a leg. The only way to get the vol out of the signal path is to do it the way Kingwa has or go with a _very_ expensive stepped unit in a shunt configuration.
> 
> Peete.


 

  
   
  And what stops the relay contacts from degrading with time and introducing noise and imbalance.
   
  I have amps and so do many others that are over 20/30 years old yet show no signs of  the problems you mentioned.
   
  The ONLY way to stop any degradation is for SW control.


----------



## gogogasgas

*I keep getting confused on this one: ACSS = CAST, right? So if the following statement by iPodPJ is true:*



ipodpj said:


> There will be no more old-style ACSS connectors.  All new models will be outfit with 4-pin XLR jacks, as I understand it.  Or at the very least, all the Master products and the RE7.1 will have them.


 

*Then, I shouldn't waste my money getting a LEMO CAST CONNECTOR and sending to China for my special Phoenix, right?*
   


currawong said:


> I've been tossing up the idea of sacrificing one set of XLR inputs to make them the ACSS inputs instead.  I could, in this case, either swap them with 4-pin XLRs and re-wire, or use 3-pin XLRs as 4 pins aren't necessary and it would allow me to use existing cables.  The problem would be drilling larger holes in the back plate of my Ref 1 if I wanted to do the same with it.


 
   
*So, like Kingwa will be using now, you are going use ONE four-pin (three-pin?) XLR socket to replace the ACSS/CAST socket on your unit?*




souprknowva said:


> have you not been to the site in a while? He's got a whole new section for his New Master series of products that are coming out soon, http://www.audio-gd.com/En%20Master.htm , the preamp is a couple hundred cheaper than the C3FV though, but the Master 2 Power amp is like 800 hundred dollars more than the C1 master






   
*The link on the AUDIO GD site mentioned above is what prompted me to speculate that there may be a updated/super version of the Phoenix around the corner...*


----------



## mtntrance

I don't know about a super version of the Phoenix coming out but I was pleasantly surprised when my new Phoenix came with a switch on the back to turn off the display.  I am not sure what the sonic advantage of XLR is over old style CAST.  The XLRs certainly are easier to use but how often to you break down and reset up your rig?


----------



## gogogasgas

Mtntrance - I don't have a Audio GD 'rig' yet. However, I am trying to work out if Audio GD has replaced the CAST connectors with XLRs on the models he NOW makes BEFORE I order a LEMO cast connector. *Do you or anyone else know?*
  (that's also good news about the switch at the back to turn off the front lights)


----------



## sokolov91

Quote: 





gogogasgas said:


> *Then, I shouldn't waste my money getting a LEMO CAST CONNECTOR and sending to China for my special Phoenix, right?*


 

  
  I don' think it is ever advisable to spend money on fruitless things so even if they kept the connector style still doesn't seem like you come out ahead in any way. :/
   
   
   
  As for the clicking my phoenix clicks every time I adjust the volume but I only ever hear it coming from the phoenix itself and not through my headphones.... it was much louder when I first had it but I don't think it will ever go away. My concerto did this and it got quieter but stayed.
   
  For me it is a non issue and I enjoy not having a pot to fiddle with... to be fair I only ever had pots on my LD amps and then jumped to a concerto and then phoenix so I guess my bias is due to cheap pots but either way I like knowing it is perfectly matched and *technically* sonically superior.


----------



## mtntrance

Quote: 





sokolov91 said:


> I don' think it is ever advisable to spend money on fruitless things so even if they kept the connector style still doesn't seem like you come out ahead in any way. :/
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


  Two days later and I am not hearing any clicking through headphones when using the remote.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote: 





ford2 said:


> And what stops the relay contacts from degrading with time and introducing noise and imbalance.
> 
> I have amps and so do many others that are over 20/30 years old yet show no signs of  the problems you mentioned.
> 
> The ONLY way to stop any degradation is for SW control.


 

 The contacts in heavy duty relays take a_ very long time _to wear out....if they do at all. It's not a friction connection with relays...they are Magnetic IIRC (closed by a control voltage). It's a better way to roll IMO since the contact doesn't grind against another as it is swept. Those same swept motions degrade the resistive surface the wiper comes in contact with....as the wiper ages and the resistive materials ages the contact and consistency (of the resistive action) of the attenuation suffers. Anyway I'm sure you know all about that....I find it hard to believe that you haven't come across a bad pot yet....I've had to deal with lots of them (slider variety as well) over the years. Some CAIG contact cleaner helps cure the noise but it doesn't bring the pot/slider back to pristine working condition...only a pot swap for a new one (or better one) will do that.
   
  Anyhow....the Phoenix volume is SW controlled but analog where it counts, sending impulses picked up by the encoder pots, processed by the SW / hardware package which send the interpretation of the encoder pot position to the respective pairs of mechanical relays, the best of both worlds IMO. Nothing is perfect for this job, just varying levels of  negative impact on the signal. The less impact the better the solution selected for the job, is, obviously.
   
  A pure digital vol control messes with the signal integrity itself and is in itself a (far) less than perfect solution...even worse than using a HQ pot (like the ALPS RK27). IMO of course.
   
  Peete.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote: 





mtntrance said:


> I don't know about a super version of the Phoenix coming out but I was pleasantly surprised when my new Phoenix came with a switch on the back to turn off the display.  I am not sure what the sonic advantage of XLR is over old style CAST.  The XLRs certainly are easier to use but how often to you break down and reset up your rig?


 


  I've broken my system down a numbers of times now (for meets and cottage use and during multiple DIY upgrade sessions for all three units, CD7/RE1/Phoenix) and have yet to have the stock ACSS connectors fail (knock wood). If you are careful the older ACSS jacks/connectors seem to function well but I like the idea of a sturdier jack and connector based upon the standard Neutrik type (the 4 pin to reduce confusion and any possible user connection error).
   
  I guess if the old ACSS jacks break on me in the future then I'll do the swap to Neutrik XLR's. I figure I've likely taken apart the system at least 10-15 times since 2009 without failure yet. I am very careful with all connections as a rule (no matter what gear it is or cable I'm using) FWIW.
   
  Peete.


----------



## gogogasgas

Thanks, Peete for your take on the CAST connector. According to Audio GD, the connector is staying the same on the Phoenix for the time being.
   
  That 'clicking' issue has been dealt with a number of times in this thread. If my Phoenix ever suffers from 'click-itis', I know where to look...


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Back when the MAX mod was being implemented in earnest (starting with the I/O wiring and then the PSU rebuild) I had set aside a matched set of K42 (1.0uf) K40 (.033uf) PIO caps for use in the PSU section to replace the 4 Solen 1.0uf 630V film caps......when I rebuilt the PSU I hummed and hawed about replacing the Solens since I could not really see the advantage of swapping them (at that time even though I had originally planned to swap them). In any event fast forward 6 months or so to last Thursday...I went ahead and installed the matched quad (it's a network of 1 K42 1.0uf + 1 K40 .033uf x 4) which required a method called tomb stoning to get the them to fit in the space left behind by the vacated Solen MKP's. The network needed one lead extended to reach the the other pad so instead of splicing a short section of wire to make up the difference I took a small section just after the K40 join point and used a section of Legenberg 22 AWG copper hook up. It looks cool and worked quite well. The hard part is tomb stoning the other end of the cap network since I did not pull the PSU board for this job. The solution is rather novel...leave a 1/4 inch section of lead attached to the one end just after the K40 bypass cap join and bend it at a 30 degree angle then insert it into the pad...that angle gives just enough room for the solder iron tip and the solder...solder the pad/leads as normal pull the iron and while the solder is still liquid move the cap network into position...you have to work quickly but it can be done. Beats pulling the PCB for 4 solder points and the end result is pretty much identical.
   
  The Legenberg copper needs to be trimmed a little at the end to fit the other through hole pad ( I nib off a small sliver at an angle until it slides in an 1/8 in). As I was saying earlier I had some reservation about the veracity of this mod but hearing is believing....there is no doubt about it there is clear improvement over the Solens much to my amazement. I do have a certain disdain for Solen caps in general and this little mod only cements that position further in my mind. I literally have spent the last 4 days or so spinning one disc after another enjoying this latest tuner change with glee. Is it a night and day difference ? Not at all, is it a nice little improvement ? Absolutely positively. The moral of this story is simply for my own future reference....if I set aside parts for a job go though with it without hesitation is the lesson. The cap network I spent a fair amount of time on to match all 8 caps as closely as possible they measure within .02% of each other ...why I didn't swap these in during the original PSU rebuild...well I guess this way I find out what that specific change brings rather than having no idea how much it contributed to the work previously...I suppose that's a positive reason for delaying the swap. Needless to say the 2  Solen MKP .1uf 630V caps under the DSP-1 board in the RE1 will now be swapped for a matched set of K42/T-1's ( 0.1uf 160V/820 pf 200V Teflon) as soon as I can get a set measured and matched for it. Sorry no pics this time around.
   
  Peete.


----------



## tim3320070

I am selling mine if anyone is interested- PM me.


----------



## les_garten

Quote: 





tim3320070 said:


> I am selling mine if anyone is interested- PM me.


 


   
  Tim!  Say it ain't so!


----------



## dukja

Today I moved my Phoenix home and listen to it as a preamp the very first time.  I was very happy with the result: the same openness, driving with ease, and well focused soundstage that I am familiar using headphone also showed up in my speaker set.  I haven't been super impressed with my humble speaker setup in the past when it was driven with CSP2, but they starts to sound quite interesting now.
   
  One thing I wasn't happy about was that I can only use volume setting of about 1/77 to 2/77 for my near-field listening.  My power amp is NAD 216 THX and speaker is Monitor Audio BR3.  The good efficiency, balanced high input, and near-field combination may be the reason.  And I tried not to switch to 99-steps mode for personal preference reason.


----------



## Mik

I have one of the first batch of Phoenix preamps and just today have experienced some major problems.  When I turned it on today I wasn't getting any sound using any input/output combination.  After playing around with it for 5 minutes it finally kicked in and worked for a while.  After playing sound for about 30 minutes it suddenly cut out again.  None of the inputs or output combinations produce any sound again.  I've tried both the headphone outputs and the speaker outputs and it's dead silent at all volume levels.  I've tried the various debug options for the volume control/memory and there is no change.  I've tried power cycling the Phoenix, and reconnecting all of the power cables and no change.
   
  Has anyone else ever had this problem with a Phoenix or any other Audio-gd preamp?  Anyone have any suggestions on how to fix it?  I definitely haven't hooked it up wrong since one second it was working and the next it wasn't, without me having done anything.  The display still works as do the volume and input controls, but no sound on any setting.  Help!


----------



## Currawong

Does the preamp switch work properly? The first 10 made had bad caps in the switching circuit which eventually flake out.


----------



## Mik

It switches in the sense that the display shows it changing inputs, but it's not clear if it's actually switching inputs.  When I turn it off and turn it on again, it doesn't always remember which input I set it it to.  None of the inputs seem to work anyway.  Shipping this back to China for repairs is going to really suck.  Is there anyone who can repair it in Canada or the US?


----------



## Currawong

With the preamp button OFF, does the blue light above it glow? It should only light when the pre-amp button is depressed (on).
   
  When you switch inputs, you'll hear a distinct click from the relays.


----------



## Mik

I hear the relays clicking when changing inputs.  It sounds the same as when I change the volume. 
   
  With the preamp button off, the blue light above the preamp button is still on, but not as bright as when the button is pressed.


----------



## lmswjm

I had some problems with no sound coming from my Phoenix a while back. It would happen everytime I disconnected the wiring to move the unit to a different location. The preamp light was acting the way you described. The relays however weren't clicking while the problem was happening. Kingwa sent me a new data cable and that fixed it completely. I don't know if it was the same issue as what your experiencing, but it may be worth a shot......


----------



## Currawong

Quote: 





mik said:


> I hear the relays clicking when changing inputs.  It sounds the same as when I change the volume.
> 
> With the preamp button off, the blue light above the preamp button is still on, but not as bright as when the button is pressed.


 

 I think you have the cap problem, going by your statement that you have one of the originals. It requires two capacitors (one for each channel) to be replaced.


----------



## Mik

Quote: 





currawong said:


> I think you have the cap problem, going by your statement that you have one of the originals. It requires two capacitors (one for each channel) to be replaced.


 
   
  How difficult is it to replace the capacitors if I only have limited soldering experience?  I have emailed audio-gd/Kingwa to see what he advises.


----------



## Mik

In case anyone else gets this problem later, I may as well post about how the diagnosing/repairs go.  Kingwa told me to solder two points together with wire for each channel.  Luckily I still had a soldering iron, solder, and a bit of wire from 10 years ago used only once.  I managed to solder it, and on his direction, hooked up my Phoenix again.  It now produces sound again and the preamp button works, but it makes the loudest BOOM noise out of my speakers when I turn it on.  Same thing out of my headphones when set to the headphone input.  I'm a bit concerned it will damage my speakers by doing that.  Following up with him about that now.


----------



## Currawong

I found replacing the caps fiddly, because there is a wire soldered across that area. Other than that, taking the case apart was more tedious. Of the original 10, I think between a few of us, we've help fix or get fixed 8 or 9 of them, so you are possibly the last.


----------



## Mik

Quote: 





currawong said:


> I found replacing the caps fiddly, because there is a wire soldered across that area. Other than that, taking the case apart was more tedious. Of the original 10, I think between a few of us, we've help fix or get fixed 8 or 9 of them, so you are possibly the last.


 


  Being a total novice, it's probably best if I don't attempt the soldering myself then.  Kingwa is trying to work out something for me now to get the capacitors replaced.  Very nice of you and others to assist with the repairs. 
   
  It's kind of funny since Kingwa is halfway around the world from me, but this is so far the most pleasant customer service experience I've had dealing with an electronics company.  Now if only he could make a surround preamp/processor so I wouldn't have to deal with Denon issues anymore.


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





mik said:


> Being a total novice, it's probably best if I don't attempt the soldering myself then.  Kingwa is trying to work out something for me now to get the capacitors replaced.  Very nice of you and others to assist with the repairs.
> 
> It's kind of funny since Kingwa is halfway around the world from me, but this is so far the most pleasant customer service experience I've had dealing with an electronics company.  Now if only he could make a surround preamp/processor so I wouldn't have to deal with Denon issues anymore.


 

 I'm glad to hear service from Audio GD is good.  That was the only negative I felt dealing with them.  I am using the Phoenix right now as a pre amp for my nice and warm (temperature wise, nice in winter OZ) tube integrated speaker amp...no heat issue from the Phoenix whatsoever.  In winter the audio system acts as a heater, as a pure heater all the time.  It has been rock solid since the day I bought it.  I will never own a pre-amp without a remote - and this Phoenix is here for good to stay.


----------



## PinkFlag

How well does a balanced LCD-2 fuse with a Phoenix amp? Is the sound natural?


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote: 





pinkflag said:


> How well does a balanced LCD-2 fuse with a Phoenix amp? Is the sound natural?


 


  I loved the LCD-2's on my setup...so much so that I'm saving my pennies nickles and dimes to buy a pair and bump the HD650's to the computer rig (for good).
   
*Mik*...check your PM box.
   
  Peete.


----------



## FauDrei

Glad that you are joining the "ortoheads" Peete. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  Before you pile up your pennies - do try HE-500 too... It does not have "F1 tech specs" as LCD-2 and require "mo' powa'" than LCD-2, but it is better all-round player (IMO) and it just might suit your tastes better...


----------



## lmswjm

Quote: 





faudrei said:


> Glad that you are joining the "ortoheads" Peete.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


  X2,  I tried the HE6 (balanced) and the LCD2 (SE) on the Phoenix and preferred the HE6 by a wide margin. I felt like the HE6 could've possibly benefited from more power, so I'm thinking the HE-500 might be a better match with the Phoenix.


----------



## elwappo99

lmswjm said:


> X2,  I tried the HE6 (balanced) and the LCD2 (SE) on the Phoenix and preferred the HE6 by a wide margin. I felt like the HE6 could've possibly benefited from more power, so I'm thinking the HE-500 might be a better match with the Phoenix.




The HE-6 kinda run on my ROC, if it's any comparison. It's very song dependent though.


----------



## PinkFlag

Do you not like the sound signature of the LCD-2 powered by the Phoenix? How does it sound? I'm sure a DAC also plays a role in how the cans sound, if you use one.


----------



## lmswjm

Quote: 





pinkflag said:


> Do you not like the sound signature of the LCD-2 powered by the Phoenix? How does it sound? I'm sure a DAC also plays a role in how the cans sound, if you use one.


 


 For me it's signature preference. All things being equal, I like an in your face presentation with dynamics/slam aplenty. To me, the LCD-2 is just more laid back comparitively. That said, I might have probably liked the LCD-2 if I never heard the HE-6.


----------



## FauDrei

pinkflag said:


> Do you not like the sound signature of the LCD-2 powered by the Phoenix? How does it sound? I'm sure a DAC also plays a role in how the cans sound, if you use one.


 

 If it is of any relevance, I've realized that LCD-2 sound changes substantially with changing Roc's bias voltage (Roc being "baby Phoenix). On and around standard ±15 V, LCD-2 sounds "behind the wall" with HF strips MIA. But if you go under ±12 V - Oh, baby! You start to understand what all those people were raving about those F1 cans. I suspect there should be similar situation with Phoenix, just the voltages may differ a Volt or two.
   
  With phones as LCD-2 and adequately "fast" amp DAC is "stripped" down to its own naked beauty/ugliness.
   


elwappo99 said:


> lmswjm said:
> 
> 
> > X2,  I tried the HE6 (balanced) and the LCD2 (SE) on the Phoenix and preferred the HE6 by a wide margin. I felt like the HE6 could've possibly benefited from more power, so I'm thinking the HE-500 might be a better match with the Phoenix.
> ...


 

 Just give a look at power requirements of LCD-2, HE-500 and HE-6 (Volts RMS and power required to reach 90 dB SPL). This says it all.


----------



## Djilbe

Hello,
   
  Just a little question out of the discussion.
  Can someone give to me please the reference of the ALPS switch used in the phoenix ?
  I know someone has changed it in this thread, but I don't found the page.
  It was a pb of too much oil inside the switch if I remember well.
   
  I have already asked to A-gd, but no answer.
   
  Thanks in advance.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote: 





djilbe said:


> Hello,
> 
> Just a little question out of the discussion.
> Can someone give to me please the reference of the ALPS switch used in the phoenix ?
> ...


 

 I think you mean the pots used for the source and volume right ? Those are encoders...PM Les Garten for specifics as he has dealt with this before. In the meantime ask Edwin to forward your message to Kingwa (if it is the encoder pots for the source/volume).
   
  Peete.


----------



## Djilbe

Hello Peete,
   
  Yes, the post used for source and volume as you say.
  There are the same in my C3SE preamplifier and I had the idea to change them to see if one problem of noise could be solved.
  But Kingwa told me there was no problem with the pots, but perhaps with the ACSS module !!!
  And that the pots are not encoders or potentiometer, but switches. And too much oil is not a problem. I have send a photo to him to be sure whe where talking about the same component.
   
  So, I will PM Les Garten to have the ref and try to read more about the pots.
   
  Thanks for your help.
   
  I let people talk now about headphones 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Djilbe.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Mik your amp is fixed.  Check your PM's.
   
  Peete.


----------



## FauDrei

Peete, you fixed Mik's Phoenix?
   
  You surely compared it with your MAXX, didn't you?


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote: 





faudrei said:


> Peete, you fixed Mik's Phoenix?
> 
> You surely compared it with your MAXX, didn't you?


 
   
   
  Yes I did FD , the caps that a number of us mentioned previously were the problem (replaced all six with Elna Cerafine and Panasonic FM types).
   
  Just an *FYI for the general public* these flaky parts were only installed on the first 10 units sold....A-gd caught the mistake early and as a result used better quality parts from that point forward.
   
   I'm still using my upgraded PSU chassis with Mik's stock amp chassis (to cut back on shipping weight/cost for Mik I asked him just to ship the Amp chassis)  so the comparison is a little difficult since 70% of the improvement IIRC came from the Phoenix PSU rebuild. That being said the MAX version is a little more refined,  added detail and depth,  truer tonal qualities, timbre etc all improved over the stock unit. Mind you the differences (at least with the MAX PSU chassis in the mix and the custom cables, ACSS & DC lines) are not immediately apparent.
   
  FD do you remember the test points on the Phoenix for adjusting the + and - Voltage levels in the amp sections ?  I'd like to tinker a bit with the settings (some fine tuning so to speak).
   
  Peete.


----------



## FauDrei

Well, not me... but Curra got this from KingWa.
   
  Happy tinkering.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote: 





faudrei said:


> Well, not me... but Curra got this from KingWa.
> 
> Happy tinkering.


 


  Thanks FD for digging that up for me.
   
  Peete.


----------



## Currawong

It's worth checking the bias at least once the Phoenix has burned in IMO as mine had drifted from the default 15V.  IIRC I set it to 18V for the LCD-2s and the result is fantastic. It changes the sound a little so is worth experimenting with.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote: 





currawong said:


> It's worth checking the bias at least once the Phoenix has burned in IMO as mine had drifted from the default 15V.  IIRC I set it to 18V for the LCD-2s and the result is fantastic. It changes the sound a little so is worth experimenting with.


 


  Definitely, good point Curra ....I bet mine has drifted a bit from all of the changes. I need to figure out a way that I can adjust the bias in real time while listening to the main rig...tune it by ear for the ET/Maggie panels.
   
  Peete.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

It might be a _very useful_ resource if  those that have futzed with their bias settings to list those settings, what gear they are using with the amp (speakers/headphones), and the voicing impressions of the chosen V range ( with the stock V range voicing used as a reference point ).
   
  Maybe a separate thread for such in the DIY section perhaps ?
   
  Peete.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Yesterday was spent (the afternoon for the most part) investigating + - bias V settings (from 15 V to 18 V in 30 mV increments) using a Denon 3910 as source (down mix 2 channel analog outs) and HD650's as the sub for the speakers, into my Phoenix. I could not test the various settings in real time on my main system (there was no way to reliably set it up given the space restrictions between the hifi rack and the L channel banks of speakers and the related amps/cabling ).....at any rate after fiddling for a number of hours trying out a myriad of settings (using a single ref track throughout) I settled on a bias setting of + - 17.1 V . It sounds great with the speaker setup restoring my doubt about using the 650's to voice an amp that will be used primarily on planar/ribbon transducers. Phew...I really did not want to take the Phoenix out of the rack today to redo that whole process. I must have spent 2 hours dialing in the + - 17.1 V settings once settled upon (initial setting, then full warm up, adjust again after some drift and then final setting once fully warmed up and tested with the ref track a few times). At least this tweak was easy to access and perform (compared to pulling pcb's etc).
   
  At the same time since I had the PSU chassis back on the workbench it gave me an opportunity to snap a few pics of the last mod done (the swap of the 4 x Solen caps for the K42/K40 PIOS).  I'll let the pic do the talking
   

   
   
  I really like the changes using the new bias V setting...it's very subtle in nature (vs stock 18V) ...I opted for a compromise between the strengths of the stock V while adding a fair taste of the attributes brought to the table by the lower bias V .
   
  Thanks to both Curra and FauDrei for bringing these details WRT tweaking the amp in this manner to light. !!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  As an aside I had not bothered to check bias V after the MAX mod (it never occurred to me at that time) so before getting into the various settings yesterday I did note what the settings were ( L channel was - 17.78 + 17.98, R channel - 17.69 + 17.92). That wasn't too bad I suppose....getting these settings all uniform sounds much better (IMO and to these ears at least).
   
  Peete.


----------



## dukja

Thanks for the sharing on your experience.  One day I'll get to the bias...
   
  On another topic, recently I used Phoenix as preamp to my NAD216 and then to power HE-6.  The sound is good but not as good as I would like.  Suddenly, I remembered that my previous experience with SE headphone output, which wasn't as good as balanced headphone output.  So I wonder if the same principle also applies: the SE preamp output may not as good as XLR preamp out?
   
  I'd appreciate someone has used balanced power amp (e.g. some Audio-gd offerings or others) with Phoenix may confirm my suspicion.  If that is the case, then I'll need to hunt down a balanced power amp.
  
  Quote: 





pricklely peete said:


> I really like the changes using the new bias V setting...it's very subtle in nature (vs stock 18V) ...I opted for a compromise between the strengths of the stock V while adding a fair taste of the attributes brought to the table by the lower bias V .Thanks to both Curra and FauDrei for bringing these details WRT tweaking the amp in this manner to light. !!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Pricklely Peete

I'm running my main system's amps ( 4 mono blocks and 1 stereo amp, 4.2  setup) off the Phoenix SE'd preamp outs, it's sound quality is fantastic dukja FWIW.
   
  Peete.


----------



## FauDrei

> Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> Thanks to both Curra and FauDrei for bringing these details WRT tweaking the amp in this manner to light. !!!!


 
  Enjoy Peete. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  I suppose those K42 and K40 are from e-bay? I might me sourcing them soon...
   
  ...and BTW & OT - Peete, if you are still in planning phase of diode swap project - do also consider Schottky SiC "zero recovery" diodes. I am pleased with my "stealths", but they do get darn hot...


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote: 





faudrei said:


> Enjoy Peete.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


  Thanks FD !....I _think_ I bought these off eBay...it was quite awhile back. I do know one thing for sure, I bought a boatload of the 200V .033uf K40's and a fair number of the 1.0 uf 160V K42's from a vendor based in the Ukraine (way better than dealing with vendors from the Russian Federation).
   
  PS: Thanks for the diode tip !!!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Peete.


----------



## drez

Quote: 





lmswjm said:


> X2,  I tried the HE6 (balanced) and the LCD2 (SE) on the Phoenix and preferred the HE6 by a wide margin. I felt like the HE6 could've possibly benefited from more power, so I'm thinking the HE-500 might be a better match with the Phoenix.


 
  I wouldn't jump to that conclusion until you try the LCD-2 balanced.  Out of the NFB-10 the LCD-2 sounded really sluggish when driven single-ended.  Not the same amp I know but its not a fair comparison SE vs. balanced esp on Phoenix.


----------



## lmswjm

Thanks, I'd really like to hear the LCD-2 in its optimum envirornment...........


----------



## Currawong

PP: Stock bias is 15V according to Kingwa. I settled on 18V in the end. I wouldn't mind trying a pair of HE-500s, especially since I've been so pleased with the Phoenix + LCD-2s, but a certain pair of Stax has done in my interest in those for now anyway.


----------



## dukja

OK, so the SE preamp out of Phoenix may not to be blamed for the plain sound... But are preamp SE out and headphone SE out share most of common circuit and hence similar SQ?
   
  Thanks!!
  
  Quote: 





pricklely peete said:


> I'm running my main system's amps ( 4 mono blocks and 1 stereo amp, 4.2  setup) off the Phoenix SE'd preamp outs, it's sound quality is fantastic dukja FWIW.
> 
> Peete.


----------



## tim3320070

Quote: 





dukja said:


> Thanks for the sharing on your experience.  One day I'll get to the bias...
> 
> On another topic, recently I used Phoenix as preamp to my NAD216 and then to power HE-6.  The sound is good but not as good as I would like.  Suddenly, I remembered that my previous experience with SE headphone output, which wasn't as good as balanced headphone output.  So I wonder if the same principle also applies: the SE preamp output may not as good as XLR preamp out?
> 
> I'd appreciate someone has used balanced power amp (e.g. some Audio-gd offerings or others) with Phoenix may confirm my suspicion.  If that is the case, then I'll need to hunt down a balanced power amp.


 

 I used 2 different Emotiva amps with my Phoenix- the UPA-2 (RCA) and the XPA-2 (XLR). Both sounded great but not to the level of the AGD amps. But for about $700, providing massive power and XLR inputs, the XPA-2 is a good value. The UPA-2 is also good value but it sounded pretty colored (warm) which I liked on a lot of music and not so much on others.


----------



## dukja

Tim:
   
  Thanks for the sharing.  Yes, Audio-GD's balanced power amp offering are nice, but they are $$ and heavy for my trial with HE-6.
   
  Quote: 





tim3320070 said:


> I used 2 different Emotiva amps with my Phoenix- the UPA-2 (RCA) and the XPA-2 (XLR). Both sounded great but not to the level of the AGD amps. But for about $700, providing massive power and XLR inputs, the XPA-2 is a good value. The UPA-2 is also good value but it sounded pretty colored (warm) which I liked on a lot of music and not so much on others.


----------



## FauDrei

currawong said:


> PP: Stock bias is 15V according to Kingwa. I settled on 18V in the end.


 
   
  Hmm... I much more prefer lower than stock bias on Roc. Kind of strange that higher than stock biases do the trick on Phoenix...
   
  Then again - this might be because of better and stronger PSU on Phoenix or it could be we just have different sound preferences...


----------



## TruBrew

I am thinking about buying a Phoenix and need some opinions. How many of you use it with the LCD-2? I am looking for an amp for them, and any future dynamic cans I buy, so I want something that is an overall winner. I don't want to be buying 10 different amps to match with different cans. I am sure that would be ideal, but I don't have that kind of space or money. 
   
  The Phoenix seems like a killer deal, which is the main reason I am looking at it. I am willing to spend more, but I was wondering how this stands up to more expensive amps, and especially how it will do with the LCD-2. I am also considering the Apex P/V, WA6SE, WA22, and maybe the GS-X. While I will spend more money, I try to be price conscious. The GS-X is likely too expensive. Also, very few people own it, which does not inspire confidence. 
   
  I know the Phoenix is the only SS of the bunch, but it doesn't mean the can't be compared. Maybe someone has compared it to a well built 4 board Beta 22 or RSA Apache. I know the Beta 22 has more power, but that doesn't affect sound quality with normal headphones.
   
  I just want to know, if spending more money will provide any significant increase in sound quality.


----------



## TruBrew

Well you can skip the question about how he LCD-2 sounds with the Phoenix. After being a member here 10 months, I just realized there was a thread search function. That made finding my answer easy. I still see little about its price to performance, and comparison to more expensive gear.
   
  PS. If you are selling a Phoenix let me know.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote: 





faudrei said:


> Hmm... I much more prefer lower than stock bias on Roc. Kind of strange that higher than stock biases do the trick on Phoenix...
> 
> Then again - this might be because of better and stronger PSU on Phoenix or it could be we just have different sound preferences...


 


  My needs are quite different being that I have nearly the entire spectrum of the audible freq range covered (within + - 1 db 23 hz to 30 khz) by my speaker setup which already has excellent bass extension (down by 3 db at 20 hz ) so a fatter warmer presentation is not necessarily ideal (vs headphones). My situation is unique in that regard FD and as such what bias setting I settle on will have little practical correlation to use of cans (say 100% of the time). Since the HD650's and the LCD-2's seem to be a little dark (and warm) to begin with it's not surprising to see Curra and I settle on a higher bias setting (although for very different reasons).
   
  Anyone have any experience with the Emotiva XPA-1 mono blocks ?
   
  Peete.


----------



## TruBrew

I used to own the XPA-1's. They are the only dedicated speaker amps I have owned, so its hard to compare them. I would say there were rather transparent. I purchased them to power a set of Magenpan MG/12's. They did an awesome job. I ended up selling the Magnepans, don't ask me why. I now own a pair of Thiel 1.2's which I find too bright. Both speakers displayed their expected characteristics, so I assume there was little coloration. I would check the Emotiva forums if you want a better review. I sold them because I almost never use the Thiels, and find them to me an unnecessary amount of power for them.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Thanks TB !
   
  I've read all of the end user accounts about the XPA-1 amps ....I actually know more about those amps than the A-gd C-1's which are the other mono blocks under consideration.
   
  Peete.


----------



## tim3320070

Still off topic but I felt the XPA-2 did not sound as good as even my FBI-400 integrated let alone my current C10. It's not like it was bad, it just seemed to lack the life-like sound of the AGD amps. And they are a fine value. If you go with Emotiva, be sure to ask for an open box, they usually have some.


----------



## BenBau

I have used the C-1 Master mono-blocks for about one year and could not get used to their neutral sound signature. In my ears they were not neutral but boring on my new B&W 802 Diamonds. I thought that they would open up after a few months, but they newer did. I was constantly yawning, trying to pop my ears open, but nothing changed.
  A month ago, I tried a pair of Brystons 7B-SST2. I was sold immediately, WOW! I also auditioned Brystons Pre-amp, the BP26 (@4500 euro!), but the Phoenix is a much better pre-amp than that.
  A few weeks ago I sold my C1-Masters. No regrets.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote: 





tim3320070 said:


> Still off topic but I felt the XPA-2 did not sound as good as even my FBI-400 integrated let alone my current C10. It's not like it was bad, it just seemed to lack the life-like sound of the AGD amps. And they are a fine value. If you go with Emotiva, be sure to ask for an open box, they usually have some.


 


  Thanks Tim.


  Quote: 





benbau said:


> I have used the C-1 Master mono-blocks for about one year and could not get used to their neutral sound signature. In my ears they were not neutral but boring on my new B&W 802 Diamonds. I thought that they would open up after a few months, but they newer did. I was constantly yawning, trying to pop my ears open, but nothing changed.
> A month ago, I tried a pair of Brystons 7B-SST2. I was sold immediately, WOW! I also auditioned Brystons Pre-amp, the BP26 (@4500 euro!), but the Phoenix is a much better pre-amp than that.
> A few weeks ago I sold my C1-Masters. No regrets.


 


  You know....when I had the FBI 500 hooked up to my main speakers I was a little underwhelmed by the result but I chalked that up to a lack of burn in at the time. Your experience with the C-1's has pretty much convinced me that I should look elsewhere.....the best combo I had going was the dual mono EL34 amp (which is now in need of repair and missed terribly) combined with SS beef on the bottom end. I have tracked down a set of tube amp kits on Audiogon (mono block 120 W RMS if I used KT120 tubes about 100W with KT88s) for a little less money than the XPA-1 SS amps. The Phoenix is a terrific preamp that is for absolute certain so it's going nowhere. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  Decisions decisions.......I think I'll give the XPA-1's a try...the tube amp kits can always be bought at a later date 
   
  Thanks BenBau for the insight, that was a great help.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Peete.


----------



## tim3320070

Quote: 





pricklely peete said:


> Thanks Tim.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  I should have qualified that more- I have Mirage MS-7i speakers which are very full and warm speakers and with the neutral AGD amps, it's excellent to my ears (seems to tame the faults I think). I can easily imagine Thiels (had and sold 2.4's) or B&W's sounding less than optimum with these amps. But I still feel my C10SE sounds better than the XPA-2 I had, might be placebo though (don't care!).


----------



## Gwarlek

I have an opportunity to get Phoenix cheap locally (~1k$). Hovewer my source is "only" DAC19DSP.
  Will this pair work balanced if I connect them through ACSS? Btw, I take it that CAST everyone talking about is equal to ACSS?
   
  Shall I go for it or just order C2.1?


----------



## tim3320070

The Phoenix is a wonderful amp but equally good as a preamp and maybe you don't need it today but someday you might and you'll love that feature. Plus it has a remote. Yes, ACSS was formerly called CAST. The DAC19 will work fine with the Phoenix but you may need some cables for that connection.


----------



## haloxt

Go for it. I had a dac19mk3 (with pmd-100 instead of dsp-1) paired with phoenix for over a year, and it sounded quite good. The phoenix can be extremely revealing though, and may sometimes bring to your attention that dac19 doesn't resolve the minutest of detail or capture the most precise transients, but the sound is still neutral and dynamic.


----------



## fasterthanafish

just love audiogd's build quality.....unbeatable at that price rage.


----------



## mtntrance

Quote: 





gwarlek said:


> I have an opportunity to get Phoenix cheap locally (~1k$). Hovewer my source is "only" DAC19DSP.
> Will this pair work balanced if I connect them through ACSS? Btw, I take it that CAST everyone talking about is equal to ACSS?
> 
> Shall I go for it or just order C2.1?


 

 I had a C-2 with DAC 19 DSP 1 and then got and hooked up a Phoenix to the DAC 19 and heard an obvious improvement with the Phoenix even single ended over the C-2..


----------



## Gwarlek

Thanks for feedback, pals. This is it then. Gotta pick it up tonight.


----------



## Gwarlek

Hmm. Now I think that even regular reading of High End forum section won't make me want to upgrade...


----------



## PinkFlag

I am in need of help with my current Phoenix setup. At the moment, I have my 75 ohm SPDIF cable connected from my video card (Auzentech Forte) into the Phoenix pre-amp. My LCD-2 headphones are connected to the pre-amp via a SAA Endorphin balanced cable. All of my music is stored in foobar and the output device is Creative ASIO. Now, for some reason, the music signal isn't travelling from the source into the headphones. What did I do wrong?


----------



## Currawong

PinkFlag: You need a DAC. The phoenix is just an amp.


----------



## badwisdom

If anyone is interested, i have a 6 months old Phoenix for sale. Im in Europe and its a 230V version. Hate to see it go, best headphone amp out there, but there are higher priorities.
   
  Cheers
  Xavier


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote: 





badwisdom said:


> If anyone is interested, i have a 6 months old Phoenix for sale. Im in Europe and its a 230V version. Hate to see it go, best headphone amp out there, but there are higher priorities.
> 
> Cheers
> Xavier


 

 There's a For Sale forum for that, and you'd probably have better luck there anyway.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote: 





pinkflag said:


> I am in need of help with my current Phoenix setup. At the moment, I have my 75 ohm SPDIF cable connected from my video card (Auzentech Forte) into the Phoenix pre-amp. My LCD-2 headphones are connected to the pre-amp via a SAA Endorphin balanced cable. All of my music is stored in foobar and the output device is Creative ASIO. Now, for some reason, the music signal isn't travelling from the source into the headphones. What did I do wrong?


 
   
  Quote: 





currawong said:


> PinkFlag: You need a DAC. The phoenix is just an amp.


 

 How would you even connect a single S/PDIF cable to the Phoenix anyway?  I assume it would be RCA but it would only be going into one channel, and that alone would cause you to scratch your head.  And how would you get any sound from a video card?
   
  The S/PDIF signal coming from a sound card needs to be input into a DAC.  Then you would take the RCA or XLR outputs from your DAC and connect them to the Phoenix.


----------



## drez

EDIT: I'm a bad person if I find this funny right


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote: 





drez said:


> EDIT: I'm a bad person if I find this funny right


 


  Not really......
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Peete.


----------



## Proglover

Have to keep following this threat. I've used my NFB-3 / C-2.1 rig for a while now, but looking for something that could drive my LCD-2 a bit more easily; Phoenix could be a nice sollution.
   
  So for people using the Phoenix with the Audez'es, do you think it's a good pair? (forgive me for not scrolling down all 219 pages
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)


----------



## SP Wild

The best headphone amp I've heard, by a very noticeable margin.  Can really gauge the absolute strengths and weakness of upstream and downstream components - I have sold a number of my much favoured tube amps in general over this solid state design - can't explain how it can sound sound so analogue, no other solid state designs I have either built or bought can accomplish this...I kinda never enjoyed most of my cans with solid state as much as with tubes.
   
  Too versatile, too much of a good value and ... well, I'm kinda glad that its like a kind of a hidden gem at head-fi.  Technically speaking, there isn't a commercial amp design as advanced as this.  This fact simply cannot be challenged.


----------



## haloxt

The C2.1 should be about the same as phoenix used single-ended. Should ask someone to test for you. I only have easy to drive headphones so the differences I observe between single-ended and balanced amping is probably smaller than people using lcd-2.


----------



## Proglover

Hmmm, maybe Amos?
   
  Curra, since you had a lot of Audio GD products, but I don't know how long you have those LCD-2's now, C-2.1/C2C vs Phoenix (SE) with LCD2's?


----------



## Currawong

I had the C-2C a long time ago now, well before the LCD-2s existed. The bottom-of-the-line Sparrow drove the LCD-2s well though, if, of course, it lacked the detail of my main rig by a country mile.  The best comparison I can give I reckon is with the Stacker II I have here now, which a number of people consider one of the best amps ever designed.  The Phoenix is yet more refined than it, though the Stacker is limited to single-ended input from my Ref 1, so it is at a slight disadvantage.  The very wide soundstage of the Audio-gd gear mated with the LCD-2s I feel really nails it. That being said, I do appreciate what a high-end tube amp can do for them too sometimes.


----------



## Proglover

Thanks Amos
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  The Phoenix will obviously be different in the fact it gives the opportunity for going balanced, but I do remain pretty curious to the difference between C-2.1 en Phoenix SE.
  I'll also see what Kingwa himself will have to say about it.
   
  I am positively biased to solid state, and I do like Audio GD's stuff a lot.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

I had a chance listening to CharlieX's balanced LCD-2's on my system at a meet last year (which I remember well)...the pairing was excellent ..I liked it better than the HE5-LEs which the Phoenix drove very well to boot. I'm unsure about the HE-6's since they seem to require around 6-10 W RMS to really get going (which translates into a class A speaker amp in the range of 30W RMS into 8 ohm) and that level of clean power is above the max range the Phoenix is capable of  (for loud sessions).
   
  That being said the LCD-2's were _very_ loud at 45 (of 70 scale) on the Phoenix (balanced) to my ears with the HE5-LE's requiring a level of 55 for the same perceived SPL ....most folks listen at much lesser SPLs...YMMV.
   
  In short the Phoenix has loads of power and headroom when driving the LCD-2's. The LCD-2 presentation slays the balanced HD650's in almost every category worth mentioning.
   
  Peete.


----------



## tme110

Quote: 





proglover said:


> So for people using the Phoenix with the Audez'es, do you think it's a good pair? (forgive me for not scrolling down all 219 pages
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 You don't have to, The 'search this thread' option will show you every mention of LCD's or whatever in this thread.  The pheonix is also mentioned in the LCD-2 thread so you could do the same there.  But I haven't heard any bad comments about the match.


----------



## Gwarlek

Alright, I want to report that Phoenix is perfect option for active monitors and subwoofer pair, since both XLR and RCA pre-amp outputs working at the same time. I was able to plug Focal CMS 65 and MJ Acoustics Ref 150 MkII without soldering smart ass cables.


----------



## tim3320070

It will not emphasize bass, it is very neutral. I like strong bass and I found it best with bass heavy headphones/ speakers. With those, it's supreme as it seems to tightens things up.


----------



## jjhead

I have had my new Phoenix about 10 days now. After the first few days of seamless operation using just IN1/RCA, I tried a second RCA input using IN4. At first it didn't seem to work at all and then when it did, it was by selecting 5. I got a reply from Kingwa after two emails asking me to send pictures of the back panel and to check the data connection. It was while taking the pictures that I first noticed the "PCA" spelling which was familiar from having read the thread much earlier before purchase and indicating as much when sending the pix. I went back and re-read the thread and now noticed the posts that I must have skimmed past, documenting the IN4/IN5 label switch.  It seemed as if these errors were fixed shortly after initial shipments two years ago. Either this is not the case or I got lucky - or rewarded for having ordered an NFB-8 along with the Phoenix.
   
  Has anyone else received their unit with either or both glitches in the past year?
   
  The A-GD site has "RCA" but old 4/5 switch, yet there was a posted pic from early days with complete corrections.
  I don't mind the labeling except for the time-wasting troubleshooting and subsequent concern over possibly deeper QC.  Haven't heard back from Kingwa yet and do not want to resurrect an old contentious topic. If there are leftover first batch back panels that occasionally get re-commissioned, I'd like to think that I'm not the only recipient and of course that it's only the back panel that is getting recycled.


----------



## Currawong

The early ones indeed had inputs 4 and 5 around the wrong way and labels on the back that corrected this. I thought it was fixed a long time ago.  
   
  AFAIK it has always been:
   
  1: RCA (inner)
  2: XLR (inner)
  3: ACSS
  4: XLR (outer)
  5: RCA (outer)


----------



## tim3320070

Anyone notice the link in the Master Series page stating Master-5 (link does not work yet)-- http://www.audio-gd.com/Master/Master-1/Master-1EN.htm


----------



## Subsequence

Quote: 





tim3320070 said:


> Anyone notice the link in the Master Series page stating Master-5 (link does not work yet)-- http://www.audio-gd.com/Master/Master-1/Master-1EN.htm


 

 What's this something "better" anounced before i decide to make a purchase? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Basically what i have now with the V200 is it's warm, too warm actually since some voices sound pretty much the same while at the same time the high's sound a bit distorted or crunchy for lack of a better word. I wish they were more smooth.. i'm thinking the Phoenix is the solution and the fact that it's also a very good preamp with a remote(yes NO MORE walking ever cough) seals the deal.
   
  If i understand this correctly; Kingwa said ACSS can both be balanced and unbalanced that makes me think though how much of a difference there is between them, ie bigger then rca to xlr or much closer.


----------



## mmlogic

Quote: 





tim3320070 said:


> Anyone notice the link in the Master Series page stating Master-5 (link does not work yet)-- http://www.audio-gd.com/Master/Master-1/Master-1EN.htm


 

 According to the official statement of audio-gd, Master-5 will be put on page after 300 hours's burn-in.


----------



## martook

What balanced DAC would you guys recommend for a Phoenix + LCD-2 v2 setup?
  I don't really want to go over $1000, so I guess NFB-1 is basically my only choice, but is the Sabre chip a better idea than a DAC with dual Wolfsons with the LCD2?


----------



## tim3320070

Quote: 





mmlogic said:


> According to the official statement of audio-gd, Master-5 will be put on page after 300 hours's burn-in.


 

 I'm hoping to be the first to purchase this- I have waited a looooong time. Do you mean they sent you an email stating this or is it posted on the website somewhere?


----------



## tme110

Just skip the USB and go COAX.
  Quote: 





parrots said:


> Got my Pheonix today along with a Calyx Sabre32 DAC but I can't get the USB driver for the calyx to install so have not even been able to listen to the amp and will not be able to until I receive the Pure i20 that I just ordered, sob, my first ever desktop rig and I can't even use it.


----------



## sonance

This may seem like a strange question, but does anyone have information or a link to what the square wave output from the Phoenix looks like?


----------



## Currawong

Quote: 





sonance said:


> This may seem like a strange question, but does anyone have information or a link to what the square wave output from the Phoenix looks like?


 

 This is only from an Oscium iMSO-104 attached to my iPad, which isn't exactly a pro-level oscilloscope, but here is the output of the digitally-generated 1kHz square wave from the Chesky Records Jazz Sampler CD measured from one channel of the balanced outputs.  The output is almost exactly the same as my Stacker II and I haven't measured anything different to compare. The iMSO-104 is 50 Ohms by the way.


----------



## martook

Quote: 





martook said:


> What balanced DAC would you guys recommend for a Phoenix + LCD-2 v2 setup?
> I don't really want to go over $1000, so I guess NFB-1 is basically my only choice, but is the Sabre chip a better idea than a DAC with dual Wolfsons with the LCD2?


 


  If I decide to stretch my budget, should I go for NFB-7 or NFB-8?
   
  How much better (not sure how to quantify that, but maybe you can  than NFB-1 is NFB-8 with the Phoenix as amp?


----------



## Currawong

No manual. There are, I think, available for download on audio-gd.com.
   
  99% of the function is self-explanitary though. Just a tip: if you aren't getting sound, make sure you haven't accidentally pushed the pre-amp button.


----------



## nigeljames

Quote: 





martook said:


> If I decide to stretch my budget, should I go for NFB-7 or NFB-8?
> 
> How much better (not sure how to quantify that, but maybe you can  than NFB-1 is NFB-8 with the Phoenix as amp?


 

 I have had the NFB-7 for about 2 weeks and running it balanced into the ROC.
  I read all the opinions/reviews etc of the the Sabre32 chip and how it is supposed to sound but it sounds different than I expected although still burning in so that might change.
  I find it a lot warmer and more full bodied than I expected with excellent and realistic tone and timbre.
  The bass is deep, fast and as tight as I expected but is much more full bodied and robust.
  The treble is very smooth and well defined and never harsh. I haven't yet come across a disk that sounds bright just natural.
  Very detailed but the detail is never forced on you and I find it extremely involving and engageing
   
  I am glad I made my desision to go with the 7 as I got the strenghts of the Sabre but without any of the supposed weaknesses.
  I certainly would not want a warmer sounding DAC. I have also read that the Phoenix is warmer sounding that the Roc.
   
  Just my 2 cents worth


----------



## martook

Quote: 





nigeljames said:


> I have had the NFB-7 for about 2 weeks and running it balanced into the ROC.
> I read all the opinions/reviews etc of the the Sabre32 chip and how it is supposed to sound but it sounds different than I expected although still burning in so that might change.
> I find it a lot warmer and more full bodied than I expected with excellent and realistic tone and timbre.
> The bass is deep, fast and as tight as I expected but is much more full bodied and robust.
> ...


 

  
  Yeah, it's one thing reading reviews about how equipment sounds, but to be honest, I don't think
  I have good enough ears to hear all the little nuances people speak of, and the descriptions are
  a bit weird (creamy sound... what?) so it's quite difficult to know what one really wants / needs.
  Also, one really important thing is synergy, and with the amp and HP chosen, the part in the
  chain that I can change is the DAC, so I really want what's best for my setup 
   
  Phoenix is supposed to be a bit dark (according to Skylab and others) and he didn't think it
  would work well with LCD2, but I guess that was about rev 1. Will rev 2 work better? Also, how
  much of a difference is the DAC chip going to do (in my case, should I go for NFB-7 or 8)?
   
  Anyway, thanks for replying, I'll read a bit more about the NFB-7 I suppose.
  Perhaps someone else has opinions that could help me as well


----------



## martook

Quote: 





parrots said:


> Thanks, this is my first desktop so I ain't got a clue what everything is.
> 
> Edit, thanks for that last comment, I thought that button needed to be on and now I know why I ain't been able to get it to work since I received it yesterday.
> 
> Can't find a manual on their site and what's that preamp button for anyway.


 

  
  A preamp is a device that you connect to a poweramp to get power to your speakers.
  If you have an integrated amplifier, the preamp and poweramp is in the same box.
   
  Phoenix is both a headphone amp and a great preamp, so if you have speakers,
  you could get a poweramp (like this one: http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/amp/C-10N/C10NEN.htm )
  and use your Phoenix to control the sound for the speakers as well.
   
   
  So, in short: the preamp button turns off the headphone part and turns on the preamp part.


----------



## Currawong

Quote: 





martook said:


> Phoenix is supposed to be a bit dark (according to Skylab and others) and he didn't think it
> would work well with LCD2, but I guess that was about rev 1. Will rev 2 work better? Also, how
> much of a difference is the DAC chip going to do (in my case, should I go for NFB-7 or 8)?
> 
> ...


 
   
  The Phoenix is EXCELLENT with the LCD-2s.  The "bit dark" comment I can understand -- it is tonally dead neutral. However, as it doesn't have the same distortion through the treble other amps (I've tried) have and has a "black" background, where notes seem to jump out of nowhere at all, it can give the impression of not being as bright. An extreme example would be comparing music out of a radio with music out of a high-end system. The former presents the instruments all mushed together in a blob, whereas the high-end system presents each of the instruments individually, with space around them. We aren't used to that "space" and, even if we are, we get used to a slight distortion in the treble, as a lot of gear is set up to sound high-end by being tuned to sound bright. When you actually experience listening through equipment designed to have excellent linear performance as well as very low distortion, it can be something of a surprise.


----------



## tme110

It's basically a single RCA interconnect but 75ohm.  Blue jeans makes a nice cable cheap. (http://bluejeanscable.com/store/digital-audio/index.htm)  You can connect it to your laptop if it has a coax connection on it.  The problem is that most computers don't advertise or list in their specs if they have an optical or coax connection and this is made more fun because they are hidden in mini-connector (the same connector as the headphone jack) and need an adapter to be used.  I had my laptop for a year before I realized it had a hidden optical jack on it.
  
  Quote: 





parrots said:


> Could you please tell me which cable I need for this or if you have a link for the cable and is it possible to go coax from my laptop.
> If I knew what cable I need I could make one up.
> Thanks


----------



## tme110

There really isn't much to it.  Even as hi-end as the pheonix your only real options are to pick an input, pick an output and change volume.
   
  As far as power amps go, I do wish Audio-GD would make another power amp that it is a ROC sized case.  He did have one a few years ago but I don't know if it just didn't sell well enough to keep doing or what.
  
  Quote: 





martook said:


> A preamp is a device that you connect to a poweramp to get power to your speakers.
> If you have an integrated amplifier, the preamp and poweramp is in the same box.
> 
> Phoenix is both a headphone amp and a great preamp, so if you have speakers,
> ...


----------



## tme110

You know, even the NFB-1 is an extreamly high-end DAC, in fact, if it wasn't for the fact that you have a pheonix you would probably be happy with the nfb-2 (but since you do, I wouldn't recommend the -2).  Between the -7 and the -8, that one is probably up to you.  These are a little different in that the -8 is the more colored, musical version so it's a personal preference (and I have never heard the -8) - so it's more of a change than other components where you can pick between sabre or wolfson.  I think it is best to stay with a neutral DAC personally (and use other components for any desired coloration) but since you do have a pretty neutral amp...but I think that's a decision only for you.  Though I'd look into the -1.
  
   
  oh, maybe scratch that.  I just went to AGD and read the -8 page.  I was positive the -8 was an outlier DAC in that it was colored but I don't see that listed in the write up now.  I'm confused now so ignore me.
  Quote: 





martook said:


> Yeah, it's one thing reading reviews about how equipment sounds, but to be honest, I don't think
> I have good enough ears to hear all the little nuances people speak of, and the descriptions are
> a bit weird (creamy sound... what?) so it's quite difficult to know what one really wants / needs.
> Also, one really important thing is synergy, and with the amp and HP chosen, the part in the
> ...


----------



## tim3320070

None of the AGD dac's are colored unless you add the filters which the higher end ones do not have. Wolfson or Sabre dac will sound very neutral, never colored. We are talking DAC's not analog, the differences in sound are minor and too much is made of it IMO.


----------



## martook

Quote: 





tme110 said:


> You know, even the NFB-1 is an extreamly high-end DAC, in fact, if it wasn't for the fact that you have a pheonix you would probably be happy with the nfb-2 (but since you do, I wouldn't recommend the -2).  Between the -7 and the -8, that one is probably up to you.  These are a little different in that the -8 is the more colored, musical version so it's a personal preference (and I have never heard the -8) - so it's more of a change than other components where you can pick between sabre or wolfson.  I think it is best to stay with a neutral DAC personally (and use other components for any desired coloration) but since you do have a pretty neutral amp...but I think that's a decision only for you.  Though I'd look into the -1.
> 
> 
> oh, maybe scratch that.  I just went to AGD and read the -8 page.  I was positive the -8 was an outlier DAC in that it was colored but I don't see that listed in the write up now.  I'm confused now so ignore me.


 

 Thanks... I think. 
   
  I would probably be happy with the NFB-1 as well - are my ears even good enough to hear any difference between the -1 and the -8? Who knows...
  I wish I could get them on loan from a store and just keep the one that I want, but that's not an option unfortunately.
  The biggest problem with getting the -1 is that I will keep wondering how much better it would have been with a -7 or a -8... and then one has to upgrade again!
  I should send Kingwa some emails and see what he thinks about it I guess.
   
   
   

 Quote: 





tme110 said:


> As far as power amps go, I do wish Audio-GD would make another power amp that it is a ROC sized case.  He did have one a few years ago but I don't know if it just didn't sell well enough to keep doing or what.


 

 I wish he would be generous and sell me a C-10SE for $900 or so, but I guess that's not going to happen! 
  Oh well, Emotiva XPA-2 will have to suffice I guess... at some point in the future anyway. I'm pretty sure that my neighbours think my Rotel amp is powerful enough for the apartment I live in right now.


----------



## tim3320070

I had the XPA-2 and it's good but not in the class of the C-10SE (which I own)* IMO*.


----------



## Subsequence

Just ordered one and should have it in a couple of weeks 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  Was considering a tube setup as well but when i weighed the pro's and con's the Phoenix won out so i can't wait to hear it!
   
  What do you guys use for balanced connector's gold plated neutrik or are those expensive Furutech preferred?


----------



## martook

Quote: 





tim3320070 said:


> I had the XPA-2 and it's good but not in the class of the C-10SE (which I own)* IMO*.


 


  Well... if you get the XPA-2 when they are on sale, the C-10SE is almost twice the price - I would expect it to be in another class really.
  I have this mental barrier at $1000 that I don't want to cross when I buy stuff. Not sure how I ended up with a Phoenix 
   
  I would love to hear your opinions on the two of them, although I guess this really isn't the best place for it


----------



## tim3320070

The C10 just sounds more real, there's that wow factor I didn't get as much with the Emotiva amp. It's hard to explain but some of you probably know what I mean. It's like going from a decent head amp to the Phoenix, everything is more 3D and real sounding.


----------



## tim3320070

No they don't, I used adhesive felt pads


----------



## elwappo99

Seems as if Kingwa has released a new balanced amp. 
   
http://www.audio-gd.com/Master/Master-5/Master-5EN.htm


----------



## dukja

Master 6 seems to be perfect "Phoenix II" for HE-6.  Has anyone get M6 yet?


----------



## tim3320070

It came out yesterday, no one even has the Master-5 yet but I might next week (or possibly the 6).


----------



## dukja

And do you happen to have a HE-6 around?  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  Quote: 





tim3320070 said:


> It came out yesterday, no one even has the Master-5 yet but I might next week (or possibly the 6).


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## tim3320070

Nope, I don't bother with open headphones anymore, only D7000 and DT770/600


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## Subsequence

Received mine today and i just love it so far. Started out testing it as a preamp quick to see if it worked, well that turned into 2 hours of listening till i remembered i also needed to listen to the T1's. Sounded really good single ended but they didn't stay that way long and i reterminated them quickly which is just amazing i have to make sure i don't trip over my jaw when i stand up again 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  I'll post more impression's later but now it's time for music, it's hard to type a coherent post when the music just keeps demanding attention....


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## Currawong

I finally got around to something I'd been meaning to do for a while: Make the data cable shorter.  While at the local electronics store, I found some serial-to-RJ45 adaptors, which made me ponder whether or not the data cable used all 9 pins or fewer. If fewer, I knew I could use the adaptor with a spare ethernet cable. Usefully, the data socket is on a separate board, making it dead easy to check what pins are being used. The result is: pin 7 isn't, so I could use the adaptors.  Now I can have a data cable as long as I like which I can connect and disconnect easily.


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## Subsequence

You could also solder one together with some DB-9 connector's and cable but i guess this works too and no DIY required 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  This amp is really something else, have had it turned on pretty much since i got it and the sound has just gotten better and better. The changes it goes through during burn in are quite noticeable and i have to agree with what has been said before in this thread about the various phases of burn in. Think it was Peete that pretty much nailed it in that regard. However i'm not going to describe what it sounds like because well, it has all been said before in this thread and the review's and i agree 100%.
   
  Wouldn't mind a nice balanced dac to go with it though, i mean the NFB-2 is nice but i think i can hear it's limitation's now. So i guess i should consider something like the NFB-1WM or the NFB-8, Kingwa said that the upgrade from the NFB-2 with RCA to the NFB-1wm with ACSS was bigger then going from the NFB-1 to the NFB-8. So that's something to consider but going with the NFB-1 i would probably be left wondering and maybe get the upgrade itch down the road....


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## FauDrei

...that and notion that A-GD's TotL DACs are their best VfM. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  IMO, of course.


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## Subsequence

They certainly look the part so it seems i have some saving to do


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## Currawong

Quote: 





subsequence said:


> You could also solder one together with some DB-9 connector's and cable but i guess this works too and no DIY required


 

 No soldering required for these, as the pins just push in to the back of the DB9 socket.


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## Subsequence

Yeah i know, was just saying that i would do it differently but then again it's in the back so you don't see it.


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## OneSec

Any review on Master-5 or Master-6 soon? I would like to see if its has great improvement, and how's the synergy with HD800, which out of the 3 go best with it.


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## BenBau

There is already a seperate Master-5 thread. I've placed a few comments in it. I upgraded from the Phoenix (still have it). See you there!
   
http://www.head-fi.org/t/570722/audio-gd-master-5-balanced-head-amp-preamp


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## OneSec

Yup saw that BenBau, was good information. Was seeing there is any formal review on that


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## elwappo99

Anyone compare these to the new Master 5 or 6? Lots of scattered reviews. I'm thinking about picking up a Phoenix myself....


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## flaming_june

My system is experiencing some harsh crackling while listening.  I'm unsure if it's the amp of the reference 5 dac.  I've tried different headphones, different channels, coaxial and balanced cables, usb, toslink, and coaxial.  What could be the problem?  This has never happened before, and doesn't go away after it's been warmed up.


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## lmswjm

I still use one of the first Phoenix's released almost daily. I haven't ever had that issue. The only way I see to figure this out would be to swap components and cables until the problem can be isolated. Kingwa is also pretty responsive to issues IME. Good luck


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## flaming_june

Thanks.


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## Man7rah

Guys, I'm ordering a balanced cable for my LCD-2's to go together with my Phoenix. I was wondering if there is *any* difference at all between the 4-pin and double 3-pin xlr inputs on the front of the unit, if there isn't I'm definitely be getting a 4-pin as I think It's more practical. If there *is* then I'll be getting the dual 3-pins.


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## FauDrei

No difference. Go for 4-pin; as you already noticed - it is more practical/elegant.


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## Man7rah

Quote: 





faudrei said:


> No difference. Go for 4-pin; as you already noticed - it is more practical/elegant.


 
  Thanks mate, appreciate it alot.


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## hedphonz

I'm very late to the party but just picked up a phoenix from a headfier and really enjoying it. Performs much better than my Lehmann BCL.
  Cant believe how substantial it is - the pics just dont do it justice.
   
  Anyway - im running it balanced via the W4S DAC2 connected with RCA's. I heard that ACSS sounds the best so am considering getting a Audio-GD dac to connect it up to.
   
  If theres anyone out there still subscribed to this thread would appreciate some feedback on just how much of an SQ advantage ACSS offers over other inputs.


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## seaice

Hi heaphonz,
   
  first try XLR connection if possible. I can comment on the XLR x ACSS difference: I have stock ACSS cables and several great XLR cables. I like the XLR connection of the Phoenix more than the ACSS but I have never tried different ACSS cables than the stock ones.


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## hedphonz

thanks for that- im getting a pair of XLR's made up - not super expensive ones but good enough to get an idea of how they compare to my current RCA interconnects.


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## nigeljames

Quote: 





hedphonz said:


> I'm very late to the party but just picked up a phoenix from a headfier and really enjoying it. Performs much better than my Lehmann BCL.
> Cant believe how substantial it is - the pics just dont do it justice.
> 
> Anyway - im running it balanced via the W4S DAC2 connected with RCA's. I heard that ACSS sounds the best so am considering getting a Audio-GD dac to connect it up to.
> ...


 
   
  I prefer my DIY ACSS cable made from Homegrown Audio pure silver wire to my very good IMO, Artisan Ultimate Silver XLR cables.
   
  Differences are not major but considering the Artisan costs just over £200 and the DIY one cost me around £50 for parts I'm happy.
   
  I use the cables bewteen my Audio-gd NFB-7 and Master-6 amp.


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## hedphonz

Quote: 





nigeljames said:


> I prefer my DIY ACSS cable made from Homegrown Audio pure silver wire to my very good IMO, Artisan Ultimate Silver XLR cables.
> 
> Differences are not major but considering the Artisan costs just over £200 and the DIY one cost me around £50 for parts I'm happy.
> 
> I use the cables bewteen my Audio-gd NFB-7 and Master-6 amp.


 
  i've been spending a lot of time on audio-gd's website eyeing up their dacs - their gear seems fantastic bang for buck  - if money was no object i would order the master 7 dac and master 8 amp right away.
   
  what im really trying to establish i guess is whether its worth investing in a audio-gd dac to be able to go acss and benefit from superior SQ - i suppose theirs only one way to find out !
   
  and thanks for the homegrown audio pointer - good site for future diy cable projects


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## conquerator2

Quote: 





hedphonz said:


> i've been spending a lot of time on audio-gd's website eyeing up their dacs - their gear seems fantastic bang for buck  - if money was no object i would order the master 7 dac and master 8 amp right away.
> 
> what im really trying to establish i guess is whether its worth investing in a audio-gd dac to be able to go acss and benefit from superior SQ - i suppose theirs only one way to find out !
> 
> and thanks for the homegrown audio pointer - good site for future diy cable projects


 
   
  Still do remember that cables is the last bit, the least important one IMO. They may give little improvements, much like power conditioning for instance.
  So I wouldn't expect superior SQ :]


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## hainss

I am looking for buying used unit of Phoenix. 
  
 I find one who look in good condition. I shortly tested the sound and hear no problem.
  
 My concern is to know if I can have problems with this amp. Anyone experiment problems with this one? 
  
 Do you know if the service is good at Audio GD?
  
 Anyone used Phoenix to drive Hifiman HE-6? 
  
  
  
 Thanks
  
  
 Sorry for my english


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## Pirakaphile

hainss said:


> I am looking for buying used unit of Phoenix.
> 
> I find one who look in good condition. I shortly tested the sound and hear no problem.
> 
> ...


 
 You might want to pick up one of Audio-GDs newer amps due to their, well, newness, and increased wattage, especially if you're going to want to drive the HE-6. The NFB-1AMP and the Master-9 are both really good balanced amps for the HE-6 due to their hilarious power output. 
 Also, Kingwa (Audio-GD guy on Head-Fi) is very responsive when asked questions and I hear their customer service is pretty good. One thing's for sure, you aren't going to break their amps, the only problem you'll ever have will be something electronic and I don't see a lot of threads of people complaining their Audio-GD stuff is breaking. So I think you'll be safe.


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## elwappo99

hainss said:


> I am looking for buying used unit of Phoenix.
> 
> I find one who look in good condition. I shortly tested the sound and hear no problem.
> 
> ...


 
  
  


pirakaphile said:


> You might want to pick up one of Audio-GDs newer amps due to their, well, newness, and increased wattage, especially if you're going to want to drive the HE-6. The NFB-1AMP and the Master-9 are both really good balanced amps for the HE-6 due to their hilarious power output.
> Also, Kingwa (Audio-GD guy on Head-Fi) is very responsive when asked questions and I hear their customer service is pretty good. One thing's for sure, you aren't going to break their amps, the only problem you'll ever have will be something electronic and I don't see a lot of threads of people complaining their Audio-GD stuff is breaking. So I think you'll be safe.


 
  
 I agree with Pirakphile here. As much of a beauty the Phoenix was, there are a lot of very good competitors at a fraction of the cost. Additionally, I would add the Phoenix doesn't have enough power for the HE-6. You really need to look at something like the NFB-1AMP or a speaker amplifier to deliver enough watts.
  
 Also, no need to apologize for your English. You were very easy to understand.


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## hainss

I can have at low cost used.
 I have a Bryston BHA-1. Now I compare both... but I searching those information because it can make a big difference.
  
 With a little test, Bryston like to be more aggressive and have much dynamic, but Phoenix is very «musical» and the soundstage is more distant...


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## soundlogic

I will be posting my MINT CONDITION Audio GD Phoenix for sale shortly. Any idea what I should ask for it?
 Thanks in advance for the reasonable answers.
 Tim


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## PinkFlag

The LCD-2.1 and Phoenix combo has provided these ears with pleasure since 2010 and counting!
 Has anyone tried the Phoenix with speakers? If so, how has the Phoenix worked for that?


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## seaice

pinkflag said:


> The LCD-2.1 and Phoenix combo has provided these ears with pleasure since 2009 and counting!
> Has anyone tried the Phoenix with speakers? If so, how has the Phoenix worked for that?


 

 It is always about synergy but yes, Phoenix can be a good preamp if paired properly with the rest of your system. I tried it with Tapco S5 active speakers years ago and was really happy about this combination.


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## NNewman

Hello. I'm looking forward to buy a used Phoenix (2010) to drive my AKG K340. Any suggestions if it will be Really enough power to push this electrostatics? I'm going to pair it at first with Dac19.
Thanks in advance...


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