# Schiit DACs (Bifrost and Gungnir down, one to go)? The information and anticipation thread.



## Hero Kid

*NOTE: This post has not been updated since 18/04/2012.*
   
  OK so most people have clued onto the fact that Schiit Audio is planning to release a DAC, even multiple DACs if you read into the string of clues Jason has left all over the forum.
   
  This thread plans to collate all the information (clues) and put them in one accessible location.
   
  Generally speaking, if you have a question chances are it has been answered here.
   
 *Old and general DAC comments:*


Spoiler: Information%20stashed%20in%20here!



From my research it began like this in the Schiit Asgard: Unboxing and First Impressions thread:
  Quote: 





kboe said:


> Any whispers on a Schiit DAC...?


 
  Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> [...] And yep, there will be other products--we just want to make sure they're absolutely, mind-blowingly right. Mike is extremely picky . . . no, er, _obsessed_ might be a better word.


 
   
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wgb113 said:


> I hope if it _were_ to_ _rhyme with yack that it includes optical and not just USB. [...]


 
   
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jason stoddard said:


> I'll answer all the _ack product teasers with this. Mike Moffat is my co-pilot. Would you expect anything less? (That is, once he stops moaning and groaning about USB. But he recently started smiling, so that's a good sign.)
> 
> Now that we have the amp portfolio solidified (Lyr is up for pre-order!!!) it's time to finish, some, er, other stuff.


   
   Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jason Stoddard* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> We're with you, man, but an _ack without USB these days is a non-starter. Suffice to say, there will be coax. And more.
> 
> Actually, until very recently, Mike would have been a happy man if USB simply didn't exist at all.
> ...


   
   
  The next time relevant discussion popped up was in the thread New Schiit Lyr: Hybrid 6W Headphone Amp. Yes. Six. Watts. RMS.:
  Quote: 





kremer930 said:


> Congratulations Jason on selling out your first production run. That will hopefully encourage the production of a Schiit DAC too. I am being hopeful. [...]


 
     
       Quote:


jason stoddard said:


> [...] If you're in the Bay Area, you can see all our stuff at the Burlingame meet. We're bringing a final production Lyr, Asgard, and Valhalla, coupled with Audeze LCD-IIs, Grado PS1000s, and Senn 650s or Beyer 990s, respectively. Sorry, no _ack at this show (it would give away too much about our plans), but you can enjoy the fine sound of some antique Theta product!
> I expect you'll be hearing more from us on the _ack side soon.


 
    
  Quote:


jason stoddard said:


> [...] 3. As far as digits go, we're declining to show any prototype stuff, because the sheetmetal gives away too much, even in ugly form. Yes, it's that obvious. No, we're not going to tell yet. So you get to enjoy some truly antique Theta gear. Which may surprise you. [...]


 

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> Originally Posted by *Jason Stoddard* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


 
   
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jason stoddard said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


   
        Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Schiit Audio* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> Okay, a little more seriously: expect a pre-order for the first DAC in June, shipping in August. Of course, this may change due to parts availability, but . . . that's the plan.
> First DAC is entry-level, second DAC (end of year) is a bruiser.
> [...]
> ...


 
   
  And finally something very solid from Jason found in Schiit, could not be more happy with this company and their products.
  Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> Yep, DACs are coming. We're now confident enough to say we'll be announcing pre-orders on the first one in June (entry-level), and a roadmap for 2 other models, so you can plan what you want to wait for.
> 
> Rumors that they will all have Mike Moffat's signature on the back are greatly exaggerated. Or not.


 
   
  The dribble of information has gone into full flight with this little teaser found on the end of a 6 moons review. 
  Quote: 





> What you can look forward to:
> 1. A line of 3 DACs, the first to be announced in June as the highest-value product like Asgard was announced last June. We'll also give at least a brief roadmap of what's coming so people can know if they want to wait or not. All of the DACs will have some surprises but the final 'statement' DAC will be the most, ahem - _surprising_.
> 2. A 'statement' headphone/2-channel product.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Jason then finally stumbled across this thread very thread and has been nice enough to grace us with information, questions and answers!:
  Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> All will be revealed in June!
> 
> Well, at least all on our intro product. But we'll also provide a brief roadmap on the others as well.
> 
> As far as USB goes . . . well, yep, we'll have USB, and it'll be a good implementation, but the two other SPDIF inputs will still outperform it. As someone here mentioned, USB is a *general* data interface, great for printers and external hard drives. SPDIF is a dedicated audio interface.


 
   
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jason stoddard said:


> Oops, I posted this on the Lyr Tube Rolling thread, in response to a question about tube DACs, but it's definitely appropriate here as well:
> 
> 
> And nope, no plans for a tube DAC. For current-output DACs, tubes don't have a proper low-impedance input to drive (or, well, to be fair, their transconductance is low when compared to solid state, so the cathode is still relatively high impedance.) For voltage-output DACs, we still prefer to stay on the solid state side for summing, etc.
> ...


 
    
  Quote:


jason stoddard said:


> A couple of answers:
> 
> Yes, all DACs will have TOSLINK optical and coax SPDIF, as well as USB. The top-end models may have a different interface as well.
> 
> ...


 
    
  Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jason Stoddard*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
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> Originally Posted by *Jason Stoddard* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> Quote:
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
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jason stoddard said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  From the 'Neck Deep in Schiit: Gungir Balanced DAC and Mjolnir Balanced Amp Announced' thread:

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jason stoddard said:


> Hey all,
> 
> I think I can confirm two things:
> 
> ...


 
   
  Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> [...] With respect to DSD, Mike is of the opinion that it's an inherently flawed format (and this is putting his response, ahem, very, very mildly), so we haven't spent much time with it. However, if enough people are using it, it's something we have to think about supporting. [...]


 
   

  
  Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> To answer a couple of questions, one of which came up privately, I figured I'd pop in.
> 
> [...] *2. Black anodize?* Nope. Not gonna happen. We need to keep things simple, so silver it is. And clear anodize vs black anodize as far as heat goes is not that much different. Unplated aluminum is a disaster, but clear anodize's emissivity is 0.83, vs black's 0.86. Plus, if I ever see another black and gold Sumo faceplate, I'm going to have to get out my VHS videotape of Smokey and the Bandit. I keep flashing back to the chest-hair and gold-chain era. [...]


 
  .


   
   
*Bifrost related comments and information:*
Bifrost product page: http://schiit.com/cart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=0&products_id=7
Bifrost FAQ: http://schiit.com/schiit-faq/about-bifrost/


Spoiler: Comments%20from%20Jason%20(Schitt)%20stashed%20in%20here!



The following quotes are from this very thread.
  Quote:


jason stoddard said:


> Hey guys--we'll definitely announce this month, but remember, this month has 30 full days in it . . .
> 
> Seriously, though, it'll probably be between the middle and end of the month. Mike and I are doing some final tweaks and finishing up the orders for production now. Expect it to go something like this:
> 
> ...


 
    
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				Eee Pee said:
			
		

> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
    
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jason stoddard said:


> Hey all,
> 
> Just a quick update: we'll be making our official announcement about Bifrost on June 30. As soon as we announce, complete details will be available on the site, including the beloved FAQ.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> Hey all,
> 
> We're busy working on the site--hopefully launching a new shopping cart that's easier to use and offers more payment options (Google Checkout, PayPal)--before the Bifrost announcement.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *Jason Stoddard* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> Quote:
> 
> 
> ...


 
    
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rebelscum said:


> ITS UP
> 
> http://schiit.com/cart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=0&products_id=7
> 
> ...


 
    
  Then from the Haute Schiit! Bifrost is world's most affordable fully upgradable DAC (press release) thread:
   
  Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *Jason Stoddard* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> 
> Hey all,
> ...


 
   
  Then from this thread again:
  Quote:


jason stoddard said:


> Okay, so we missed a bit and you found it early. Cool!
> 
> Now the FAQ and press release are up too. You heard it here first!


 
   
  And from the press release thread:
  Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> Hey all, some quick answers:
> 
> 1. Yep, all inputs are 24/192, including SPDIF.
> 
> 2. A Bifrost without USB is certainly not "incomplete." It's simply an option for people who don't need USB. As far as the price goes, look at what good-quality 24/192 USB 2.0 costs, and then let's talk.


 
   
  Then back to this thread with this:
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> > Originally Posted by *Jason Stoddard* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > ...


 
   
  And from the press release thread:
  Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> A couple more answers:
> 
> 1. Yep, pre-order price is same as retail--we mainly do pre-orders to judge demand so we can set up the right production numbers. It didn't work so hot on Lyr, though, since demand was much higher than expected. This time, we're prepared for much higher levels of orders.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *Jason Stoddard* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> [...]
> 
> ...


 
    
  Quote:


jason stoddard said:


> Hey all,
> 
> Some more answers:
> 
> ...


 
    
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jason stoddard said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  And from this thread:
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jason stoddard said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
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jason stoddard said:


> Hey all,
> 
> An update, and a couple of comments:
> 
> ...


 

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jason stoddard said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
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jason stoddard said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> Yep, the "authorize only, charge only when shipped" deal is working on PayPal (basically, now we're only using them for processing, but the account and everything is on our site.)
> 
> ...


 
    
  Quote:


jason stoddard said:


> A couple of quick answers:
> 
> 1. No combo deals, unless we're allowed to raise the price on the products to the levels they should sell at, then provide a discount from there. Kidding, of course.
> 2. No analog inputs on any DAC product, no volume controls, nothing preamplifierish. Too many compromises.
> ...


 
    
  Quote:


jason stoddard said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
    
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jason stoddard said:


> Hey all,
> 
> A couple more answers/clarifications:
> 
> ...


 

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jason stoddard said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

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jason stoddard said:


> Um, a couple more comments:
> 
> 1. Galvanic isolation? Like I said, of course we have that. I simply thought no competently designed, non-bus-powered device would be without it, so we never mentioned it. It's like saying your new lamp comes with a power cord. Duh.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> Ha, I see we've been accused of "not knowing USB" by some USB mafia on another site, because, you know, "them old guys with their SPDIF canes don't understand the future."
> 
> So, to clear things up, here's a version of an email I just sent.
> 
> ...


 

  Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> One of the huge advantages of an upgradable DAC is that it's easy to build up a ton of 2.5 x 4" DAC/Analog boards and swap them in and out. Yep, we've tried all the major chipsets. In this implementation, AKM gave the best sonic performance and some of the best measured performance.


 

  Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> Linux? We're not going to provide any technical support, but if your Linux machine is USB Audio 2.0 standard compliant, you should be in the same boat as Mac users--no drivers necessary.


 
    
  Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> Hey all,
> 
> Burn-in? Yep, everything's burned in for a day before we ship. This isn't for audio quality, though--this is to catch early failures. Our amps usually improve over the next 50-100 hours of run time beyond our burn-in. Bifrost will probably be similar.
> 
> Power supply scrimping? Uh, no. Like I've said before, we don't do wall-warts, we don't do switching power supplies. Bifrost uses a 4X over-specced EI core transformer (the same kind of transformer we use on all of our gear,) feeding 5 stages of regulation, with low-noise regulators in critical sections, and over a dozen conductive polymer aluminum solid electrolytic capacitors--which you typically only find on very, very expensive gear. Bifrost is no joke--it's a serious DAC!


 
   
  Quote: 





xinque said:


> Jason Stoddard jason@schiit.com
> 
> On top is fine [...]
> 
> ...


 
   
  And from the announcment thread:
  Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> Hey all,
> 
> I’m sorry to say that we’re going to have to move the Bifrost shipping date to September 30, rather than August 31, as we had initially planned.
> 
> ...


 

 And from this thread:
  Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> I'm sorry to say the barbecue option won't be available for Bifrost. It only runs slightly warm. Especially when it has the right voltage out from the transformer, ha.


 

  Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> Oh yes, and the rather cryptic reference to overvoltage transformers was the bugaboo that put us behind. We've definitely learned our lesson on preorders: don't do it until ALL production parts are in-house and qualified.
> 
> [...]


 
   
  Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> Hey all,
> 
> Yep, looks like production is sorted on Bifrost, so barring any other surprises, September 30 is solid. [...]
> All DACs: will use the same optional USB card, and all will have upgrade paths--see next comment. [...]


 
   
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jason stoddard said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
      
       Quote:


jason stoddard said:


> Hey all, quick update:
> 
> The new transformers are here, a little later than expected. That said, it looks like we'll start shipping Bifrosts at the end of the month as planned--it'll just be a little slow at first. As usual, we'll be shipping earliest orders first, so I'll have to ask for your patience if you ordered recently. It should take only a couple of weeks to clear all the pre-orders.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> Hey all,
> 
> Some real photos of Bifrost (yes, including the back panel) are up on the site!
> 
> ...


 
   
  Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> Hey all,
> 
> Nobody has their order status updated yet because . . . we need a couple more days, I'm afraid.
> 
> ...


 

  Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> Okay, to answer a few more questions:
> 
> 1. Yes, things around here are a little insane right now. We're basically living at the PCB assembly house at the moment. And yes, this is a local place--about 20 minutes away from our office.
> 
> ...


 

 Quote: 





andreyew said:


> Here is a marked up picture of the Bifrost guts:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
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jason stoddard said:


> Midweek update for everyone (well, kinda past midweek . . .)
> 
> Our lives at the boardhouse are winding down. I can now say we will be shipping a handful of Bifrosts on Friday, another handful on Monday, and will have good supply as of Tuesday.
> 
> Apologies again for the delay.


 

 Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> Yep, USB should start shipping midweek and have good supply by the end of the week.


 
   
       Quote:


eclein said:


> [...] My guys were at RMAF today and saw Jason from Schiit and he told them the USB's should start shipping this coming week so its not to far off for me. [...]


 
   
  Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> Hey all, quick update:
> 
> 1. Shipping of Bifrost backorders continues to be slow--apologies again for the wait.
> 2. However, we expect to start shipping the first USB units this week.
> ...


 
     
  Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> Hey all,
> 
> To answer the above question, we do *not* do asynchronous sample rate conversion, or "upsampling." We're philosophically opposed to it, since it destroys all the original samples in the recording. Of course, so do successive-approximation D/A converters (aka delta-sigma--pretty much every major converter on the market today--Sabre, Wolfson, AKM.) Although we cannot do anything about the converter, we choose to preserve the original samples as far down the chain as possible.
> 
> ...


 
   
        Quote:


jason stoddard said:


> USB? We're finally getting boards in tomorrow, so if they test well . . . Friday!
> 
> We may have *all* non-USB preorders shipped by then, too. Friday, that is. Things are moving much faster now--thanks for your patience, and apologies again for the delay.


 

 Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> Hey all, another update:
> 
> 1. USB boards are now in, and we're in the process of testing and burning them. First shipments are likely to happen Monday, not today as we'd planned. Apologies again.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> Hey all,
> 
> Another slight delay on shipping USB--we want to make a minor firmware update on the delivered boards. We'll be shipping in a couple of days. And yes, I know, I'm starting to sound like a broken record . . .
> 
> ...


 

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jason stoddard said:


> Hey all,
> 
> Final update on USB: WE BEGIN SHIPPING TODAY!
> 
> ...


 

 Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> Any prepaid orders that didn't ship yesterday will ship today.


 
   
        Quote:


jason stoddard said:


> Hey all:
> 
> 1. We haven't experienced that error on Win7--in fact, the driver has simply worked with all the Win7, Vista, and XP systems we tried it with. All I can think is try to reinstall the driver, try it on another system, and let us know if it doesn't work. We'll also see what C-Media has to say about it.
> 
> ...


 

  Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> One of the reasons we like the AKM4399 (and 4396) is that they use switched-capacitor filters to provide out of band noise performance that is more similar to a multibit DAC. As far as we know, they're unique in this regard. They're still delta-sigma, but they're a rather nice implementation of delta-sigma.
> 
> It's also a little ironic. One of the senior projects I did way back when I was getting my EE degree was a switched-capacitor, frequency-sensing noise gate for analog noise reduction. This was before the days that FFT and DSP became inexpensive enough to use broadly. It's neat to see that switched capacitor filters still have practical applications. Oh, the days of Z-domain analysis!


 
   
        Quote:


jason stoddard said:


> Hey all,
> 
> Sorry to say the distributor situation is pretty grim--we ship first to direct sale customers, and we are now in backorder for first run of Bifrost, as we still try to finish up shipping the preorders (should be finished early next week.) Current preorders are all covered.
> 
> ...


 
   
        Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jason Stoddard* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> [...] Bottom line, everyone who has preordered is covered, it will just take us a few more days to finish them up.
> 
> ...


 
   
   

  
  Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> Hey all,
> 
> Here's a long-awaited update on where we are and what's coming up this year.
> 
> ...


 
 .





Spoiler: User%20comments%2C%20reviews%20and%2For%20impressions%20stashed%20in%20here!



Quote: 





davidnighorn said:


> Got mine today.  I was about the 20th order placed on Day 1.  Lest everyone start to wonder, I sent in a prepaid overnight shipping label.  You didn't get skipped.
> 
> To set the stage a bit, I have relatively limited experience with DACs.  Up to now, I have had the Dacmagic and the Cobra D10 units.  Both were a decent improvement over the Squeezebox internal DACs.
> 
> ...


 
   
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davidnighorn said:


> Still listening too.  I need to go to bed but cannot tear myself away from the music.  This is the way that I usually experience vinyl, but it is rare with digital.


 
     
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chavac said:


> Sounds pretty damn good so far.


 
   
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jerikl said:


> Got mine today. It powers on just fine but otherwise it's not working. At least, the optical input doesn't appear to be working. I've tested it with two computers (iMac and MacBook Pro) along with two different optical cables. I'm unable to test the coaxial input. Correct input is selected on the Bifrost and sound settings are correct on the computers.
> 
> Not looking for help -- just wanted to let everyone know in case someone else has the same issue. And btw, I've already contacted Schiit. It IS pretty though


 
     
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maxvla said:


> As I have limited time before early bed to catch flight for RMAF, my very early impressions are right out of the box, but were still quite an eye opener. They echo David's comparison with the DacMagic. I've always felt the DacMagic was good, but rough and the first violin bow stroke told me all I needed to know in my decision between the 2 DACs. I've only had my DacMagic with no other DAC to compare with until now, and thought that there was probably not much if any differences between them. I need more time to see if the Bifrost has negative side effects, but the initial impressions are that it is VERY smooth and has good clarity, it just has a clean sound which was missing on the DacMagic. Passages that used to make my cringe slightly on my DacMagic are effortlessly played with the Bifrost. Soundstage depth seems improved, width slightly. Positioning and separation appear to be similar. As David mentioned it just feels more alive. Looking forward to putting much more time on this.
> Now I gotta dash off and get a few errands run and pack.


 

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hp300plus said:


> Just received mine:  Initial impressions follow same suit as others.  I was previously using a nuforce uDac2.  With the Bifrost, there's definitely some micro details coming out that I have not heard before -- with some added spacial-ness (if that's a word) and better separation of instruments.  I've got to head back to work from lunch, but am letting the Bifrost burn in with my ripped ALAC copy of Isotek burn-in tracks.  I'll post more info along with my other gear in use tonight or tomorrow.


 
   
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hp300plus said:


> Using Optical connection here and yes, it does make a clicking noise when a signal is input/when I begin playing music, but only then, not when switching tracks.  I suspect you are playing music files that are at different sample rates possibly, and when you go from track to track, there's some internal clock switching going on -- Schiit indicated they are using a special clock system that doesn't upsample which I suspect is the 'clicking' sound you are hearing... this is from their site:
> 
> *Advanced Bitperfect Clock Management *
> *The ugly truth about most DACs in this price range is that they sacrifice every single one of your original music samples to get their magic "192kHz" spec. Every input is routed through a sample rate converter and upsampled to 24/192. Bifrost dispenses with the sample rate converter and uses a sophisticated master clock management system to deliver bit-perfect data to the DAC, preserving all the original music samples--whether it's 16/44.1 or 24/192.*
> ...


 
   
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hp300plus said:


> Here's an updated mini-review for interested folks.  My setup is as follows.
> 
> 
> *Power*:  From the wall - Pangea AC-9 power cable > PS Audio Duet power center > Shunyata Diamondback power cables x 3 (one for iMac, one for Lyr, and one for Bifrost).
> ...


 
   
       Quote:


chavac said:


> coax->lyr (6N23P) -> bifrost -> LCD-2 r1
> 
> Just to chime in with my thoughts, I've had the Bifrost about 4 days now and so far I'm really enjoying it. Mind you I'm coming from a D10 coupled to my Lyr so take my impressions with a grain of salt, but the Bifrost really is night and day in comparison across the board. The thing that especially jumps out to me is the imaging; everything has such a 3 dimensional and voluminous sound to it that I've never been able to get out of the other dacs I've owned. I had even all but decided to move on from the LCD-2s to the HD800 because I thought they were never going to let me hear _into_ the music to the extent I wanted, but that idea is pretty much out the window now, and I've been having a lot of fun revisiting all my music with the LCD's. Even some of the poorly recorded music I have is showing some new life. On top of that, the soundstage is much more fleshed out but only a bit wider, although in all fairness my LCD-2s have never really shined in that department. I really get the feeling I'm listening to an actual room/stage rather than a wall of sound. Detail wise the bifrost is pretty big step up and I'm hearing several nuances I've never caught before, even in some of my favorite songs. It also feels like extension on both ends has been upped a notch or two. Tonally what I'm hearing sounds pretty neutral, maybe slightly warmer but I don't really get the impression it's coloring the music to any significant degree. So far I'm having trouble coming up with anything to complain about. There were a few hihats and drum beats that sounded a little thin when I first started listening, but my ears might have just been a little wonky as I haven't been able to find them again. Build quality is of course simple and solid.
> 
> I don't have a high end reference to compare to against higher price points, so take everything with a grain of salt, but I have to say I'm quite pleased with the sizeable bump in clarity and detail. I've always been a pretty underwhelmed with my past DAC upgrades (HDP, D10), so it's nice to finally have something that really adds to my rig.


 
   
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maxvla said:


> Still sounding great. Some orchestral recordings I really didn't care to listen to before because they sounded too rough with the Dacmagic are nice and clean now and I'm loving them once again. Quite a difference with the Bifrost.


 

  Quote: 





yeemanz said:


> Just got my Bifrost today yay!
> 
> First impressions from a person with no audiophile speak....
> 
> ...


 
   
  Quote: 





timmybob said:


> Although I have been a long time browser, I joined today to add my thoughts as I must have one of the first shipped (non-USB, number 2!). I also listen through speakers so realise my experiences may be different to those who mainly listen through headphones.
> 
> Over time, much of my music has seemed a little less satisfying to my ears and I had started to wonder if age changes were affecting my listening pleasure or whether my CD players (a 508 and a G08) were losing their touch. I know it is early days yet, and all changes take time to fully evaluate, but I have to say I am blown away. To say this DAC has lifted a veil would be an understatement. I know both my players are a little long in the tooth, but neither were slouches in this area in their hey-dey but neither can hold a candle to the Bifrost.
> 
> This one definitely won't be going back!


 
   
  Quote: 





yuceka said:


> Ok to answer several questions first.
> 
> 1) My LED is not really blue. It's exactly the same as the led you find in Lyr, Asgard and I assume Valhalla as well.
> 
> ...


 

      Quote:  





45longcolt said:


> Some people have asked for impressions, others declare it's too soon, but I'll wade in based on about 8 hours of listening to mostly rock and jazz. Classical will come once I stop running back and forth digging out old faves, which may be awhile. And maybe that tells you something.
> 
> System is Marantz SA8004 player > Black Cat coax > Schiit Bifrost > Audioquest interconnects > Schiit Lyr > Norse 8-strand cable > Audeze LCD2 Rev. 2.
> 
> ...


 

  Quote: 





ddoyle777 said:


> Reflections on 4 days in and the Bifrost.
> 
> My system currently is a MacBook Pro > optical out > Bifrost > Arcam A85 > Lyr > LCD-2 Rev 2. My speakers are B&W Monitors
> 
> ...


 

  Quote: 





45longcolt said:


> Schiit must use the same LEDs found in tactical flashlights. With the room lights off and the Lyr on, it's easy to walk around safely. Add the Bifrost, and I can practically read..
> 
> Anyhow, spent most of day listening to Bifrost with speakers (Triangle Celius, powered by Musical Fidelity A300 and supplemented by Hsu 1220 subwoofer.) All for you, fellow Head-Fiers.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *Anaxilus* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


 

  Quote: 





333jeffery said:


> I got my Bifrost and Lyr today. After spending a few hours listening to them through my HD600's, and comparing them to an Arcam FMJ cd player/Cambridge Audio preamp setup, I've concluded that they are a helluva bargain. Their sound easily equals that of the much more expensive Arcam, and at times, even surpasses it. The Bifrost has a very clear sound without being harsh. It pairs perfectly with the Lyr.
> For those curious about such things, I'm using Mullard ECC88's in the Lyr. Very clean sound, much like the solid-state Cambridge Audio preamp in my main system. No noise/hum whatsoever, and no clicking between tracks (I'm using the coax connection).  A worthy upgrade for folks using cheap DAC's, and a huge step up for those not using any DAC at all.


 
   
  Quote: 





45longcolt said:


> My Bifrost clicks with each new CD in the player, a Marantz. With my other DAC, the Marantz loses lock between CDs, while with my old Rega player lock was unbroken as long as the player was on. Fortunately, I don't mind the click, since according to Jason it's normal.
> 
> Also, surprised that nobody pointed out that in my last post I wrote "taught" instead of "taut" when referring to bass reproduction.  Or you were all too polite to point it out.
> 
> Still liking the Bifrost quite a bit. It seems a bit more midrange focused than the Marantz alone or my other DAC, though I suspect that might be interconnect-related. Perhaps this weekend I'll have some time to experiment.


 

  Quote: 





hyperm3 said:


> Finally got my cables and my bifrost hooked up last night. After some frustration with my cable box I ended up connecting optical from my TV to the BF and Coax from my Logi Touch to the BF.
> 
> First thing I noticed when playing music from my iTunes(Apple Lossless) through the touch was how much brighter all the intruments sounded. I hate using the metaphore so loosely but it truly made my speakers sound like they had been "unveiled". There was an incredible amount of depth to the soundstage that wasnt present before. I was very happy with the increase in musical enjoyment this little investment added. I will give it more time to break in and give it a listen but so far I would definitely suggest this product to anyone on the fence.
> 
> The only downside I think I may have perceived is that my bass doesnt seem to hit as low as before. The mid-bass seems tighter but the low slams dont seem to vibrate my couch as they did previously. I wish this had some sort of IR ability to change input. This is the only product in my whole house that I have to get up from my listening/watching area to change.


 

       Quote:  





333jeffery said:


> I'm loving my Bifrost/Lyr combo with my hd600's. There is no listening fatigue whatsoever. In fact, the only negative thing I can come up with in regards to the Bifrost, is that it doesn't have the resolving power of the "reference grade" DACS. Of course, some folks may prefer this as it keeps it from sounding dry and analytical. Still an excellent piece of kit for the money.


 

  Quote: 





misterrogers said:


> Thought I'd share my experience with cabling Bifrost. I replaced my work MSII+ with Bifrost, and used a generic optical spdif for the connection. Sounded wonderful, though the very bottom seemed rolled off a bit. My Silflex glass optical cable arrived today, and that made a noticeable difference. The bottom end is there is with force, clarity and slam, with a slight improvement in clarity overall. Now this probably speaks mostly to the poor quality of the cable I was using - but I thought I'd mention it as others may have  a similar experience.


 

  Quote: 





ecohifi said:


> Here are my gathering of info so far on this thread for the bifrost:
> 
> good sound stage and detailed sound
> 
> ...


 

  Quote: 





maxvla said:


> I think I might notice a very slight reduction in bass compared to the DACMagic, but the clarity of the mids/treble versus the DACMagic is so much better it's hardly believable I listened to the DACMagic for as long as I did. The bass from the Bifrost is smooth and clean, hits very nicely, but may not be quite as loud or as much reverberation. Surely not the best DAC ever, but clearly a huge step up in this price bracket.


 

      Quote:  





maxvla said:


> See my comments in the post above yours regarding the DACMagic. As to fine details, I'm listening to the Mozart violin concerto that is track #5 on the HDTracks 24/96 demo disc (you can download for yourself) and I can hear things like the breath of the player, when the player barely touches an extra string by accident which is very faint from a distance, but happens often. I hear the orchestra shuffling pages, moving their instruments into rest position during the cadenza, and so much more. It's quite good.
> Also, I don't put any faith in 'professional' reviews. Nobody should, imo, unless the magazine/site publicly displays their financial information. Non-professional reviews like most found here by names like Skylab, Joker, and the like are not to be trusted out right either, but if you follow their reviews, look at their gear as time passes, their posts in threads on the topics you are following, you'll find out if they are being consistent or merely trying to be the big man on campus to get attention. If you put in the time to find people who share the same preferences you do, or can at least draw confident conclusions from, you have found your best reviewers.


 
   
        Quote:


agisthos said:


> BIFROST impressions with speakers, not headphones, and via coaxial....
> 
> Guys I can only fairly compare against a CA751 BD player. This has what is essentially a DacMagic built in, same wolfsen dac chips for each channel, same Anagram Q5 upsampling technology, but without the benefit of a seperate dedicated enclosure.
> 
> ...


 
   
        Quote:


pbassforever said:


> I've been following this thread for a while now and it's great to see the initial impressions start to take shape.
> 
> I used an Arcam CD73 for many years and then revived my vinyl collection about 1 1/2 years ago to do needle drops at 24/96 using an Apogee Duet.  I then purchased a DacMagic for playback side to go with my Arcam A85 amp and Epos M5 speakers.  I like the DacMagic but always felt that the frequency extremes while being  well extended were a bit exaggerated in a "smiley face EQ kind of way...... not extreme but leaning that way.  I've played bass for about 40 years and felt the bass end in particular was slightly on the Wolly side.  I recently bought a Squeezebox Touch and much preferred the bass end of the SBT over the DacMagic.  Bass and precussion were much tighter with the Touch analogue output.  Now there was bass and a bass drum.
> 
> ...


 

  Quote: 





leesure said:


> Lookee what FedEx delivered a whole day early......
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
        Quote:


internethandle said:


> Got my Bifrost yesterday (w/ USB, Order #215)!
> 
> Had a bit of a hiccup that turned out to not be the Bifrost's issue but my PC's own. At first I noticed something odd in that under Playback Devices the CMedia driver was only letting me choose in the 16-bit range of sample rate output, even though this is a 24/192 USB implementation. Just thought it was a weird Windows issue, though. Then after doing some brief 2 hour or so burn-in with Pink Noise, I did some listening. Everything sounded great until I began getting a strange wave "wa-wa-wa-wa" like distortion about halfway through the second song in a playlist. This would continue until I double-clicked a song again and re-started playback. Contacted Jason who thought it might be a driver issue, so he let me know they had updated the USB drivers at schiit.com/drivers and I might want to try them to rule out a driver issue. No dice. Tried other things - swapped out USB cables, DirectSound instead of WASAPI output in Foobar, tried other players beside Foobar, etc., and still had the issue. Just when I thought I might have a faulty USB card on my Bifrost, I remembered an old addage of sorts thrown around Computer Audio Asylum and some other forums - "not all USB ports are created equal." Sure enough, when I plugged my USB cable into another port, problem solved, no distortion, playback clean as a whistle! Really weird, never had problems with that port before, all other ports were disabled in Device Manager, the port in question had its own IRQ, etc., but apparently it either didn't like Bifrost or was fried. Anyway, just thought I'd throw that out there if anyone runs into similar problems.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Quote: 





hyperm3 said:


> After about a week of burning in and listening Id like to update my review a little bit.
> 
> I tried putting on some music that I normally listen to which gives my speakers a good run for their money which is dubstep. You might not like it and I dont expect everyone to, but I like it because it just throws sounds "everywhere". It also tests bass extension for me on my speakers. I can say that the bass is going lower but its DEFINITELY more controlled than before. Where it used to be slightly muddy and deep, now its barely audible but clean. The bass has become "snappy" and more musical from what I can tell.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Quote: 





wberghofer said:


> Received my Schiit Bifrost (non-USB version) two weeks ago.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Quote: 





wberghofer said:


> since it’s difficult for me to describe sound and music in English (not my native language) I’ll concentrate more on the clearly visible outside facts.
> 
> Build quality and design of the Schiit Bifrost are on a very different level than the Beresford DAC. The Beresford feels and looks cheap compared to the Bifrost’s massive metal housing. I also like that the Bifrost does not use an external power supply. The power button and the input selection push-buttons on the front of the Beresford sometimes are difficult to operate; there’s a certain point which one has to hit exactly, otherwise the buttons simply won’t react.
> 
> ...


 

 Quote: 





judmarc said:


> Don't know how many of you are in a similar situation to mine, which is that I've been an audiophile for more than 30 years, have had much of my current equipment for around 20 years, and just fairly recently have begun to explore computers as audio sources.  I have a 20 year old DAC that was a pretty fair piece of equipment for its day, but it is limited to 16/44.1 or 16/48 resolution.  So when the designer of my old DAC (Mike Moffat) came out with a new one that could handle resolutions up to 24/192 at a very nice price point, I was interested, and soon ordered one.  There's a 15-day money back guarantee, so the focus of my early listening has been to compare my older DAC to the Bifrost on 16/44.1 CD rips, which makes up virtually all of what I listen to these days.  If anyone here has an older DAC and is considering the Bifrost, perhaps you'll be interested in my early listening impressions so far.
> 
> Details of my setup are in my sig.  All listening was done with the Audirvana Plus audiophile player for Mac.
> 
> ...


 

 Quote: 





argo duck said:


> Ok. I received my bifrost about 20 hours ago, unexpectedly two days early. Yesterday morning I was still sorting out review tracks, so I was caught unprepared!
> 
> Anyway, I had auditioned five possible tracks earlier in the morning (see note 1 for rig), so I repeated those tracks (see note 2) with Bifrost (BTW no-USB), and made some notes. I _nearly_ posted those early impressions yesterday, then decided to wait out the 50-100 hours burn-in Jason suggested.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Quote: 





judmarc said:


> * 100 hours:*
> 
> Having a DAC for the first time that will play higher res material, I ripped some 24/96 songs from a couple of DVD-A discs, Steely Dan's _Gaucho _and the Beatles _Love_ (the Cirque du Soleil soundtrack produced from Beatles songs and alternate takes by George Martin and his son).  The title track from _Gaucho_ was great, Fagen's voice whipcracking in all the parts where he's being irritated.  ("You're a nasty schoolboy with no place to go.  Try again tomorrow.")  George's vocals were beautiful on a couple of my favorite tracks from _Love_, an alternate take of _While My Guitar Gently Weeps_, and of course _Here Comes the Sun_.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Quote: 





judmarc said:


> *120 hours:*
> 
> Doing a couple of things today - going back through the music collection to hear old favorites with the new DAC, and listening to high-res things for the first time.
> 
> I heard something pretty amazing to me when listening to a rip of the Beatles' _Love _DVD-A recorded in 24/96.  The version of _While My Guitar Gently Weeps _on this recording is an alternate acoustic take.  I noticed during the first few acoustic guitar notes that _I could hear the notes resonating in the guitar body _just as you can if someone is playing an acoustic guitar in the room with you.


 
   
  Quote: 





45longcolt said:


> [...] With almost 60 hours on my Bifrost,I'm enjoying it quite a bit. I would have to say that while the bass is cleanly presented, there's just a little bit less at the very bottom end. This is especially noticable over speakers, where there's also a subwoofer.
> 
> As far as "thin" or "harsh," I don't hear that on phones or speakers. This is true even on things like cymbal crashes or horn notes that can really startle me sometimes. Upfront, yeah; overdone, no. But if you don't want to hear everything, this may not be the DAC for you. It ain't gonna sugarcoat a bad recording or file.
> 
> And like Judmarc, I find it easier to hear details of the mix, and of individual instruments. Which I like, but some may find a case of too much information.


 
   
  Quote: 





laforgue said:


> My 2 cents:  I find the Bifrost very realistic and very revealing. The bass is tight, so you won't hear the flabby boominess that some ears are accustomed, but Scott La Faro never sounded so good. The double bass sounds exactly right, with the added dimension that you can hear all his sliding fret work and slapping strings. The tympanis in Gergiev's Rite of Spring rocked the room, as they should.  You are definitely going to hear some piercing treble, but that's just like live music.  Hit a high note on a trumpet or violin in a live venue, and it _is_ piercing.  I'm in awe of the Bifrost.  I listened to Prokofiev's Violin Concerto 1 by Vengerov and it was a revelation.  For the first time, I heard everything the orchestra was doing.  I've also noticed audible tape hiss on some high resolution downloads (Rachel Podger from Linn Records).  What I especially like is the roundness and decay of notes. As it has been noted, the soundstage is superb.  The Bifrost is transparent but still very musical.  At $450, I have no complaints.


 
   
  Quote: 





sling5s said:


> I have had the Bifrost for about a week now.  I'm using the Bifrost paired with Asgard listening with Grado RS1i.  Later I will listen to it with my JH16pro.
> But I can confidently say that in terms of these qualities: clarity, detail, openess, soundstage and resolving power, it surpasses all my previous budget dacs: Pico dac, Yulong D100, Nuforce HDP, Music Streamer II+, and Audio GD NFB-3. It's like my window into the music just got more clearer. Pretty impressed.


 

 Quote: 





argo duck said:


> Just a quick update on my listening with the Bifrost and MiniMax DACs, following from my post of last Tuesday/Wednesday.
> 
> I have yet to bring the Meier Stagedac into play - this is about two days away. I have also yet to bring in the Lyr. The Stax Lambda Pro I will bring in at the end.
> 
> ...


 
   
   
*EDIT: As of the 14th of September 2011 this section of the thread is no longer being up-dated! *


   
*Gungnir (Balanced DAC) comments:*
Gungnir product page: http://schiit.com/cart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=0&products_id=11
Gungnir FAQ: http://schiit.com/schiit-faq/about-gungnir/


Spoiler: Information%20stashed%20in%20here!



From the Bifrost announcement page:
  Quote: 





> [...] a planned line of three Schiit DACs, including a step-up model with balanced outputs, [...] All will offer upgrade plans or options.


   
  From this thread:


> Originally Posted by *Jason Stoddard*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
    
  Quote:


			
				Jason Stoddard said:
			
		

> [...] 2. Balanced DAC [...] prices haven't been set yet, but balanced will be significantly more than Bifrost--50%ish is realistic. [...]


 
   
  Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *Jason Stoddard*
> 
> 
> 
> [...] To bring this more on the DAC topic, the middle (balanced) DAC will be a lot more than a balanced Bifrost, and it'll have a couple of new tricks that I guarantee you haven't seen before on other DACs on the market. So comparing it to Chinese-made, non-upgradable, 16/48 USB-input stuff just ain't fair.


 
    
  Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jason Stoddard*
> 
> 
> 
> [...] 2. No analog inputs on any DAC product, no volume controls, nothing preamplifierish. Too many compromises. [...]


 

 Quote: 





			
				Jason Stoddard said:
			
		

> Same style chassis? Yes.
> Same size? No.
> 
> So yeah, different chassis.


 
    
  Quote:


			
				Jason Stoddard said:
			
		

> [...]
> Unfortunately, this will probably lead to some delays in announcing new gear, but it will contribute to _your_ overall sanity, we think.
> 
> (And, that said, I still think you'll be seeing some balanced gear this year.)


 
    
  Quote:


			
				Jason Stoddard said:
			
		

> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Quote: 





			
				Jason Stoddard said:
			
		

> [...] As far as details on the other DACs, yes, we're keeping things close to our chest--not for any cloak and dagger reasons, but because we're still prototyping/testing/optimizing. Let's see what else I can clear up, though.
> All DACs: will use the same optional USB card, and all will have upgrade paths--see next comment.
> Midrange balanced DAC: we're still in the middle of testing, so I can't confirm which D-A converter we're using. [...]


 
   
       Quote:


			
				Jason Stoddard said:
			
		

> [...] I'm sorry about all the cloak and dagger stuff, guys, but there are two reasons for it:
> 1. These products are still in development. *We* don't even know exactly what they'll be yet.
> 2. All of the upcoming stuff is "one and only" product. As in, it does stuff, or uses technology, you won't see elsewhere, at any price.* That's a hallmark you'll see going forward. If we can't say, "The only...", we're not going to bother making that product. We're not here to "slot in" with the rest, or pursue incremental changes. We're here to shake things up.
> 
> *Yes, even the midrange product. Nobody is using our balanced amp topology, and nobody is using some of the stuff we're going to be doing on the midrange DAC. I'd prefer to keep the competitors guessing until we announce.


 
    
  Quote:


			
				Jason Stoddard said:
			
		

> Okay, to answer a few more questions: [...]
> 
> 5. Have we learned our lesson? Absolutely. You'll be hearing a lot less from us about what's coming when, until we actually have product in hand. That means you'll be able to confidently pre-order based on a real timetable that will be a lot shorter than 2 months. The bad news is, this will mean you won't hear about our new products for a while. I expect we will still have something (or somethings) new out this year, and something (or somethings) else out in Q1 2012. But that's all I can say at the moment.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> [...] 4. Balanced DAC and other stuff has been pushed out, so we can focus on Bifrost. [...] It's kind of insane to introduce a new product at this time. I'm still confident we will announce this year. [...]


 
   
      Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jason Stoddard* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> [...]  3. That said, we're ramping up to try to eliminate these backorder situations in the future. That's our singular focus right now. No new products are being announced until this is fixed, period. That will probably push any new product announcements to the end of the year, or slightly past that, sorry. [...]


 
   
  Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> [...] 1. Balanced amp and DAC--we're trying for a simultaneous release, but we'll probably be announcing in January, no earlier. If one comes first, it's the DAC. The DAC will be worth waiting for, especially if you're looking for a balanced-output piece. We're going to have at least one big surprise in store for you. Remember, all products from now on are "one and only" products--we won't release them unless they are unique in one or more meaningful ways. And yes, we know the definition of "unique."
> [...]
> 
> All the best,
> Jason


 
   
  Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> Hey all,
> 
> Here's a long-awaited update on where we are and what's coming up this year.
> [...] So here's where we are, in convenient FAQ format:
> ...


 
   
  Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> [...] In a few days, I'll make an announcement about the "midrange" products, Mjolnir (balanced amp) and Gungnir (balanced DAC). Which really are end-game products. This announcement will give you plenty of information to chew on and decide if the products are for you, but there will be no pre-order. There'll be an interest list and an anticipated shipping date. Pre-orders will be open when all parts are at the board house for assembly, all final metal has been through QC, and we're ready to produce. This means there won't be delays, as there were with Bifrost.
> 
> [...]* So when are the new products coming out!*
> We'll announce the midrange products in the next few days. Like I said, it'll be an interest list. We'll specify anticipated shipping dates on the interest list and announce pre-order shortly before shipping. At least one of the products will be shipping in Q2.


 
   
  From the Gungnir product page:
        Quote:


> $749.00 / $849 with USB  Gungnir offers the world’s most advanced Adapticlock™ clock regeneration system in a fully upgradable, hardware-balanced DAC with 32-bit D/A converters, advanced fully discrete analog output stage, with hardware summing for single-ended output. Like Bifrost, it also offers one of the most advanced asynchronous USB 2.0 input sections available. The USB, SPDIF BNC and RCA coax inputs, and Toslink optical input all offer 24/192 capability.
> So, what’s all this about Adapticlock? Well, you probably know about jitter. And you probably know one of the best ways to kill it is with high-precision, voltage-controlled crystal oscillator (VCXO) reclocking. Now, that’s all well and good, but what happens when you have a source that won’t allow the VCXOs to lock? You know, like a satellite receiver or some computers? In other cases, you’re toast. The VCXOs unlock, and jitter flows right through the system.
> In Gungnir, if the VCXOs won’t lock, it shifts the entire reclocking network to VCOs. This allows us to lock to virtually any input, and still provide a low-jitter regenerated master clock. The result is higher-quality clocks, despite the source.
> *End-Game Performance With Hardware Balancing *
> ...


 
   
  From the 'Neck Deep in Schiit: Gungir Balanced DAC and Mjolnir Balanced Amp Announced' thread:
  Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> I think Maxvla pretty much covered it, but here are some additional comments. [Hero Kid edit: answers in bold]
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


 

  Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

  Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

  Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> To clarify further:
> 
> 1. There are two inputs on the back of the amp--RCA, and one XLR.
> 2. Both of them are tied together.
> ...


 
   
  Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> I'd take a long hard look at the specs of stuff in Gungnir's price range (and 2X), and see if you can find *any* true clock regeneration, outside of the hocus-pocus that "well, ASRC and delta-sigma mean it doesn't matter anyway," or "we gots magic stuff in the chip (that you conveniently can't measure) that make it all good." If a DAC doesn't have clock regeneration,it should be most properly compared to Bifrost.
> 
> Gungnir is the only DAC with both VCXO and VCO regeneration, and intelligent switching between the two. The difference between a properly regenerated clock and no regeneration is not subtle, and the technical achievement is no small feat. The difference between a DAC with only VCXO regeneration is that Gungnir will work with all of your sources.


 
  .


   
*Balanced statement DAC comments:*


Spoiler: Information%20stashed%20in%20here!



From the Bifrost announcement thread:
  Quote: 





> [...] a line of 3 planned Schiit DACs [...] and an all-out assault on the state of the art following within the next 6 months. All will offer exceptional value and upgrade paths for future-proofing.


   
  From this thread:


> Originally Posted by *Jason Stoddard*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
    
  Quote:


			
				Jason Stoddard said:
			
		

> If you can swing the top one, it'll be nuts. Simply nuts.
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


 
   
  Quote: 





			
				Jason Stoddard said:
			
		

> [...]
> And, I will not say anything more, but the real top-end will be *much* better than Sabre. Think total redefinition, not remixing what everyone else is doing.


 
   
  Quote: 





			
				Jason Stoddard said:
			
		

> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
    
  Quote:


			
				Jason Stoddard said:
			
		

> [...] "Ultimate" DAC prices haven't been set yet, [...] Ultimate will probably be at the very top end of 3 figures to low four figures. Remember, that's a redefinition piece, unlike anything on the market. You will literally be getting technology that isn't available anywhere else--not for $5K, not for $10K. [...]


 
    
  Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jason Stoddard*
> 
> 
> 
> [...] 1. Top-end DAC will have balanced and single-ended outputs. [...]


 
    
  Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jason Stoddard*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Quote: 





			
				Jason Stoddard said:
			
		

> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Quote: 





			
				Jason Stoddard said:
			
		

> Same style chassis? Yes.
> Same size? No.
> 
> So yeah, different chassis.


 
   
  Quote: 





			
				Jason Stoddard said:
			
		

> [...]
> Unfortunately, this will probably lead to some delays in announcing new gear, but it will contribute to _your_ overall sanity, we think.
> 
> (And, that said, I still think you'll be seeing some balanced gear this year.)


 
    
  Quote:


			
				Jason Stoddard said:
			
		

> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
    
  Quote:


			
				Jason Stoddard said:
			
		

> [...] As far as details on the other DACs, yes, we're keeping things close to our chest--not for any cloak and dagger reasons, but because we're still prototyping/testing/optimizing. Let's see what else I can clear up, though.
> All DACs: will use the same optional USB card, and all will have upgrade paths--see next comment.
> Midrange balanced DAC: we're still in the middle of testing, so I can't confirm which D-A converter we're using.
> Statement DAC: we won't be using a D-A converter used by any other manufacturer of audio gear.
> ...


 
   
      Quote:  





			
				Jason Stoddard said:
			
		

> [...] I'm sorry about all the cloak and dagger stuff, guys, but there are two reasons for it:
> 1. These products are still in development. *We* don't even know exactly what they'll be yet.
> 2. All of the upcoming stuff is "one and only" product. As in, it does stuff, or uses technology, you won't see elsewhere, at any price.* That's a hallmark you'll see going forward. If we can't say, "The only...", we're not going to bother making that product. We're not here to "slot in" with the rest, or pursue incremental changes. We're here to shake things up.
> 
> *Yes, even the midrange product. [...]


 
    
  Quote:


			
				Jason Stoddard said:
			
		

> Okay, to answer a few more questions: [...]
> 
> 5. Have we learned our lesson? Absolutely. You'll be hearing a lot less from us about what's coming when, until we actually have product in hand. That means you'll be able to confidently pre-order based on a real timetable that will be a lot shorter than 2 months. The bad news is, this will mean you won't hear about our new products for a while. I expect we will still have something (or somethings) new out this year, and something (or somethings) else out in Q1 2012. But that's all I can say at the moment.
> 
> ...


 
   
       Quote:


maxvla said:


> [...] Another tidbit most probably expected, but it came up in conversation was that the statement Dac will not use tubes. Also it is not too far from being done as it was actually the first one Mike started on. It will likely be announced Q1 2012. After hearing the Bifrost in my home I can't wait to hear the statement.


 
   
  Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> Hey all,
> 
> Here's a long-awaited update on where we are and what's coming up this year.
> [...] So here's where we are, in convenient FAQ format:
> ...


 
    
  From the 'Neck Deep in Schiit: Gungir Balanced DAC and Mjolnir Balanced Amp Announced' thread:
  Quote:


jason stoddard said:


> PS: We're still expecting to announce the "statement" products and ship by year's end. Development is proceeding at a rapid pace now that we've addressed our operational issues. Sorry, no other info is available on these. They're really, really different than anything else out there..


 
   
  Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   

  
  Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> To answer a couple of questions, one of which came up privately, I figured I'd pop in.
> 
> *1. Statement products cost more than originally anticipated? *Yep. They're also very different products than we anticipated. We originally planned to have a single-ended-only, non-hardware-balanced version of the top DAC. We decided that hardware balanced was the way to go (it will still have summed single-ended output.) We also originally planned to have the top amp be a conventional volume-pot and input-switch design, now it's relay-switched stepped attenuation and relay-switched inputs. Fair warning: if you don't like clicking, steer well clear of the statement amp. It'll have 24 relays inside.
> 
> [...]


 
  .


   
  I for one am very excited about their new DACs... if you've read this far you probably are too! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  I hope this thread proved to be useful.
   
*See my other thread: New Balanced Schiit Amps? The anticipation and information thread. *


----------



## digitaldissent

I want one!


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

Yes! So Summertime was hinted. I'll take the highest end DAC that isn't balanced (I assume the balanced DAC will be the most expensive, and I'm not planning on going that route).

I think I'm definitely gonna hold up on a dac purchase until they get their Schiit together for summertime. 

I'll have to tough it out with the Fiio E7 until then, unless I justify the UDAC2 as a real upgrade to it for cheap. Heard it was more E7 = warmth vs UDAC2 = bright, so I'm not sure shelling $130 for a tone difference is worth it.


----------



## Hero Kid

Added some more information from their Facebook page.


----------



## xtasi

I hope the budget DAC is less than $150?


----------



## 12345142

Just wait...in a few weeks this thread is going to _explode_. I'll definitely keep an eye on this. And to think spring only just started...


----------



## Maverickmonk

Futureproof w/ USB = USB 3.0 compatability?


----------



## 9pintube

Not to start WW-III but a Dac for under or around  $150,00, you do know you get what you pay for, right.........Plus, if this company is talking a Dac by this summer or by the end of the year do you guys know how many Dacs will come on the market with the(latest and greatest) new chip/chips, input and output connection options,the best analog output stage,etc.etc. during this year alone. Dacs change like the weather that's why so many older brands still hold up. The builder eludes to this by talking about, " but you can enjoy the fine sound of some antique Theta product"!  I don't think he would use a "old school" piece of gear to demo his Equipment if they didn't approve of the sound that each piece contributed to their musical puzzle to produce a  great sounding system. Again,look how many Dacs have come onto the market in the last year,many very nice and some not so musical... Keep this in mind! but do remember, this is......JMO....and I'm hoping just like the rest of you that his company really has the "Magic Bullet"in their sights......


----------



## Caphead78

I dont think there is any use for usb 3.0 for audio, I may be wrong but since USB 2.0 can transfer 24/192 why would USB 3.0 be needed? Is there even a USB 3.0 specific audio standard?
  Quote: 





maverickmonk said:


> Futureproof w/ USB = USB 3.0 compatability?


----------



## Maverickmonk

I'm certainly not disagreeing, i was mearly contemplating how "futureproof" and usb could be related.


----------



## olor1n

Subscribed. Is it reasonable to assume there may be balanced amps to go with these dacs? What about the likelihood of a balanced amp/dac combo similar to the Audio-GD offerings (NFB-10ES/WM)? Hopefully whatever they come up with can compete in terms of value.
   
  Edit: Optical input please!


----------



## MorbidToaster

May not be for audio. Could be USB 2 with external power, USB 3 powered by USB only.
   
  That's the deal with some of these USB 3 only monitors I've been hearing about, its the power.
   
  Also, more on topic. I was just looking at a an amp from them, maybe I'll nab the DAC too.
  
  Quote: 





caphead78 said:


> I dont think there is any use for usb 3.0 for audio, I may be wrong but since USB 2.0 can transfer 24/192 why would USB 3.0 be needed? Is there even a USB 3.0 specific audio standard?


----------



## Caphead78

Ahh that'd make sense, I guess we'll just have to wait and see
  Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> May not be for audio. Could be USB 2 with external power, USB 3 powered by USB only.
> 
> That's the deal with some of these USB 3 only monitors I've been hearing about, its the power.
> 
> Also, more on topic. I was just looking at a an amp from them, maybe I'll nab the DAC too.


----------



## MorbidToaster

I'm pretty excited about it. If it has the same footprint as the Asgard, and I could just stack 'em. Oh man. Get hype.
  
  Quote: 





caphead78 said:


> Ahh that'd make sense, I guess we'll just have to wait and see


----------



## HammerSandwich

After seeing Jason's teases, I feel safe to make one conclusion: we'll see some balanced amps before too long.


----------



## 45longcolt

I emailed Jason my wish list for a new DAC. I asked for something along the lines of a Wyred4Sound DAC-2 that can replace a conventional preamp. The W4S has volume and balance, done in the digital domain. Jason shot that down, along with upsampling which he also spat upon from a great height. (I don't agree, but I do respect his purist perspective.) So I'm guessing, just inferring here, that the end product will be pretty straightforward with minimal features.
   
  I also asked for an I2S input, which solves the issues some people have with USB and what they perceive to be its sonic shortcomings. Jason did not repond to this, hmmm...
   
  Agreed that a common case with the amps would be nifty. However, given that the Lyr runs hot (which I know firsthand) and the Asgard apparently even hotter, would putting either atop a case full of delicate chips be a real good idea?
   
  Truly the DAC market is exploding. It wouldn't surprise me to get one free with my breakfast cereal. So I don't think asking for a decent $150 DAC is unrealistic. Electronics get better and cheaper, faster. Just got a new Marantz SA8004 player, which has a port on the front for a thumb drive or iPod data and a port on the back for computer USB. And that built-in DAC competes with my modded PS Audio DL III.
   
  Will Schiit deliver a $150 DAC? Don't expect so. But given the value delivered in the Lyr, I can't wait to see the "bruiser" DAC promised for later this year.


----------



## pseudohippy

Quote: 





9pintube said:


> Not to start WW-III but a Dac for under or around  $150,00, you do know you get what you pay for, right.........Plus, if this company is talking a Dac by this summer or by the end of the year do you guys know how many Dacs will come on the market with the(latest and greatest) new chip/chips, input and output connection options,the best analog output stage,etc.etc. during this year alone. Dacs change like the weather that's why so many older brands still hold up. The builder eludes to this by talking about, " but you can enjoy the fine sound of some antique Theta product"!  I don't think he would use a "old school" piece of gear to demo his Equipment if they didn't approve of the sound that each piece contributed to their musical puzzle to produce a  great sounding system. Again,look how many Dacs have come onto the market in the last year,many very nice and some not so musical... Keep this in mind! but do remember, this is......JMO....and I'm hoping just like the rest of you that his company really has the "Magic Bullet"in their sights......


 
   
  These guys make excellent products, so whatever the price it will be worth more than they are asking. And remember, the reason he mentioned bringing the Theta is because the guy designing the DAC is Jasons partner Mike Moffat who is formerly from Theta and designed their stuff , so yes, I would say they approve of the "old school" Theta designs. Jason is formerly from Sumo and has designed lots of stuff. So easy to say these guys have been around the block and know what they are doing. JMO


----------



## teofilrocks

Here's a crazy idea. How 'bout a Thunderbolt port? Even more power than USB 3! Okay, maybe that's not it (but you can't ignore their Apple friendly styling).
  
  Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> May not be for audio. Could be USB 2 with external power, USB 3 powered by USB only.
> 
> That's the deal with some of these USB 3 only monitors I've been hearing about, its the power.
> 
> Also, more on topic. I was just looking at a an amp from them, maybe I'll nab the DAC too.


 

 Dangit! I was trying to settle on a DAC to go with the Asgard or Valhalla. Man, if their entry-level unit could come in around $200, that would kill.


----------



## afrobat

kind of already known, but 5 days ago,

  
  Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> Yep, DACs are coming. We're now confident enough to say we'll be announcing pre-orders on the first one in June (entry-level), and a roadmap for 2 other models, so you can plan what you want to wait for.
> 
> Rumors that they will all have Mike Moffat's signature on the back are greatly exaggerated. Or not.


 

  
  Found here: http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/549810/schiit-could-not-be-more-happy-with-this-company-and-their-products


----------



## Wedge

I just hope that Mike Moffat, will perfectly align each molecule in all the components using his Absolute Zero containment suit.
   
  On a more serious note though I don't mean to pick a fight but I really wouldn't want their DAC built like someone elses.  I want their DAC, not a cheaper version of Wyred4sound's DAC.  Theta has always made some killer stuff, and I would really love to see what could be done on a more obtainable budget.  I don't own any of their amps yet but I spent some good time on my friends Lyr, and I think its a wonderful amp, and even better for the money.


----------



## WobblyGoblin

subscribed.


----------



## Jalo

It is interesting that they will be coming up with a balance dac.  Do you guys think that there will be a balance Lyr in the future?  Otherwise, how will a balance Dac complement their line of Amps?


----------



## Gatepc

I too am interested in seeing what they are coming out with. I think I would weight to see what they offer on the higher end scale of things.


----------



## WobblyGoblin

Quote: 





jalo said:


> It is interesting that they will be coming up with a balance dac.  Do you guys think that there will be a balance Lyr in the future?  Otherwise, how will a balance Dac complement their line of Amps?


 

 They've mentioned before that there'd be a balanced lyr, said it'd obviously be much more expensive.


----------



## Hero Kid

I just added another snippet. Is anyone else excited?


----------



## olor1n

Quote: Jason Stoddard


> ... All of the DACs will have some surprises but the final 'statement' DAC will be the most, ahem - _surprising_.
> 
> 2. A 'statement' headphone/2-channel product.


 
   
  Does this mean a balanced DAC and therefore an integrated or accompanying balanced headphone amp?


----------



## Wedge

Maybe a headphone/speaker amp.  As SE or Balanced amp are both 2 channels.


----------



## Hero Kid

Yeah it's open to interpretation but to me it suggests a headphone + speaker amp. But who knows.


----------



## Kremer930

Only just stumbled over this thread. You guys are largely on the right track. I have been lucky enough to have been told some very detailed facts from Jason. I have been sworn to secrecy but I can say that the Schiit products will be awesome value for money and have the usual huge performance per cost benchmark as in their existing amps. Put that together with the fact that one of their headline products will be significantly higher than their current price points and it should tell you what kind of performance to expect. 

I have already started saving and planning to buy two of their products that are yet to be announced. 

Great thread. Subscribed.


----------



## Nuwidol

Great thread. thanks for putting it all together in one place.
   
  Looking forward to more info.


----------



## blitz-dice

im patiently waiting for Schiit's DAC also @_@


----------



## Baldr

I would bet that it will be the size of an Asgard with more schiit on the back if I did not have to recuse myself.


----------



## Jason Stoddard

Okay, I'll play.
   
  $150-200 DAC? Nope, not a chance. At least not matching the current line. Plus, Mike would kill me. 
   
  Combined amp/DAC? Nope, we're not huge fans of multi-megahertz hash cruising around near sensitive analog electronics. There are too many compromises in a combined amp/DAC, in our opinion.


----------



## MrScary

jason stoddard said:


> Okay, I'll play.
> 
> $150-200 DAC? Nope, not a chance. At least not matching the current line. Plus, Mike would kill me.
> 
> Combined amp/DAC? Nope, we're not huge fans of multi-megahertz hash cruising around near sensitive analog electronics. There are too many compromises in a combined amp/DAC, in our opinion.




Good no combined amp that's a good sign I'm hoping for a high end model in the 800-1000 dollar range then I may have a reason to switch from my tube dac..


----------



## Dynobot

Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> Okay, I'll play.
> 
> $150-200 DAC? Nope, not a chance. At least not matching the current line. Plus, Mike would kill me.
> 
> Combined amp/DAC? Nope, we're not huge fans of multi-megahertz hash cruising around near sensitive analog electronics. There are too many compromises in a combined amp/DAC, in our opinion.


 

 Thats great...Less is more, and more from having less is Mo' Better!!
   
  USB is the work of the Devil....it should not be in audio but is a necessary evil to sale a product these days.  USB is for keyboards and printers not audio gear.
   
  Stick with a simple design that focuses on the powersupply...you are what you eat.
   
  Good Luck!


----------



## Eee Pee

How about a re-boxed Theta Cobalt 307?  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  I still use my Cobalt.


----------



## MrScary

dynobot said:


> Thats great...Less is more, and more from having less is Mo' Better!!
> 
> USB is the work of the Devil....it should not be in audio but is a necessary evil to sale a product these days.  USB is for keyboards and printers not audio gear.
> 
> ...




I agree with that USB is truly the new river that runs through HELL it sux I don't use


----------



## Kremer930

Hi Jason
   
  When do you think that you will be able to provide more details so that people know what they are saving for?  I realise that you need to keep some details secret to retain the competitive advantage of bringing those features to market but is there anything else that you can tell right now?
   
  Do you have some performance benchmarks that you are aiming for or a product design brief etc?
   
  Keep the great stuff coming. I am truly a fan.


----------



## bumblingbooby

On the verge of pulling the trigger and then I see this. Subscribed. Oh, and USB is fine by me.


----------



## paconavarro

x2 @ last post


----------



## Jason Stoddard

Quote:


kremer930 said:


> Hi Jason
> 
> When do you think that you will be able to provide more details so that people know what they are saving for?  I realise that you need to keep some details secret to retain the competitive advantage of bringing those features to market but is there anything else that you can tell right now?
> 
> ...


 
   
  All will be revealed in June!
   
  Well, at least all on our intro product. But we'll also provide a brief roadmap on the others as well.
   
  As far as USB goes . . . well, yep, we'll have USB, and it'll be a good implementation, but the two other SPDIF inputs will still outperform it. As someone here mentioned, USB is a *general* data interface, great for printers and external hard drives. SPDIF is a dedicated audio interface.


----------



## ZorgDK

Looking forward to June. 
   
  I wonder if it's all solid state or if there's a tube DAC in the lineup..


----------



## obazavil

x2 @ last post
   
  USB + something nice, at office I only have USB


----------



## Kremer930

Thanks for the reply.  At least June is rapidly approaching. 
   
  I get the feeling that God has sent you to teach me patience....
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> Quote:
> 
> All will be revealed in June!
> 
> ...


----------



## MrScary

kremer930 said:


> Thanks for the reply.  At least June is rapidly approaching.
> 
> I get the feeling that God has sent you to teach me patience....




Thank god someone else feels the same way that USB sucks I would never use it for audio unless I was on the road with my laptop then I would use my IBasso D6 but at home USB? hahahhaa


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





wedge said:


> I just hope that Mike Moffat, will perfectly align each molecule in all the components using his Absolute Zero containment suit.
> 
> On a more serious note though I don't mean to pick a fight but I really wouldn't want their DAC built like someone elses.  I want their DAC, not a cheaper version of Wyred4sound's DAC.  Theta has always made some killer stuff, and I would really love to see what could be done on a more obtainable budget.  I don't own any of their amps yet but I spent some good time on my friends Lyr, and I think its a wonderful amp, and even better for the money.


 

 I had the THETA Ds Pre Gen III since 1990 updated twice from the I to the II then to the III by Mike way back in the day when he started Theta. In fact it was one of the first of the production runs for his DACs.  I think the price then was 3K. It was to some an absolutely insane price to pay for what was then one of the first stand alone DACs but it grabbed my ears and I just couldn't let go and insisted on buying the stores floor demo at Mamaroneck Hi FI.   It was still working when I sold it just a few months ago. I purchased a Wyred4Sound DAC-2  just past it's 200th hour now.  The Ds Pre had a preamp in it which as nice, it was no match for my Classe Pre amp but could have done the job in most cases.


----------



## Jason Stoddard

Oops, I posted this on the Lyr Tube Rolling thread, in response to a question about tube DACs, but it's definitely appropriate here as well:
   
   
  And nope, no plans for a tube DAC. For current-output DACs, tubes don't have a proper low-impedance input to drive (or, well, to be fair, their transconductance is low when compared to solid state, so the cathode is still relatively high impedance.) For voltage-output DACs, we still prefer to stay on the solid state side for summing, etc.

   

  You can expect that all our DACs will have discrete analog stages--Mike was using opamps in the Theta Gen III when I came around, and I turned him around to discrete in the Gen V with a discrete stage that measured (and listened) much better than the uber-super-duper opamps he was using at the time. That's a whole 'nother story--200 parts on a 4 x 6" teflon board with no soldermask . . .


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> Oops, I posted this on the Lyr Tube Rolling thread, in response to a question about tube DACs, but it's definitely appropriate here as well:
> 
> 
> And nope, no plans for a tube DAC. For current-output DACs, tubes don't have a proper low-impedance input to drive (or, well, to be fair, their transconductance is low when compared to solid state, so the cathode is still relatively high impedance.) For voltage-output DACs, we still prefer to stay on the solid state side for summing, etc.
> ...


 

 That Mike!...


----------



## MoData

Can I get SerialNo. 001?
  Ok. How about 002?
   
  Maybe 007?


----------



## bumblingbooby

Discrete analogue stages instead of opamps eh? I'm liking the "sound" of Schiit DACs already.


----------



## kwkarth

Discrete is the way to roll, baby!


----------



## hp300plus

Jason,
   
  Patiently waiting here and appreciate your responses to us eager folks.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  I have a question around the 'two other SPDIF inputs' which may seem obvious: I wanted to confirm they'd be COAX and OPTICAL.  
   
  Personally, it would be greatly appreciated if OPTICAL was included as it'd be an easy plug-n-play with an Apple Mac's optical audio out that's built in.  
   
  Also, will USB have some form of galvanic isolation to eliminate any grounding hum and/or computer feedback/noise issues?  The HRT Music Streamers do this via regenerated power and it eliminates computer noise in the USB path.  (Which is another reason OPTICAL input would be so wonderful... no power in the signal so no electrical noise pickup.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)
   
   
   
   
   
   
  Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> Quote:
> 
> All will be revealed in June!
> 
> ...


----------



## Nick63

Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> As far as USB goes . . . well, yep, we'll have USB, and it'll be a good implementation, but the two other SPDIF inputs will still outperform it. As someone here mentioned, USB is a *general* data interface, great for printers and external hard drives. SPDIF is a dedicated audio interface.


 

 If SPDIF is better than USB Jason, then what interface is best from the computer? There must be something better than the average sound cards SPDIF output. What do you recommend?


----------



## Jason Stoddard

A couple of answers:
   
  Yes, all DACs will have TOSLINK optical and coax SPDIF, as well as USB. The top-end models may have a different interface as well. 
   
  And yes, SPDIF from a computer is still far better than USB. Any implementation of USB. Even ours. We've had a half-dozen implementations running, and we've come to the conclusion: it just ain't that good. That said, it's not gonna be a crap TI 270x 1.1/48K max deal either. 
   
  The big question, though, is: would you rather have a bulletproof 24/96 no-driver USB 1.1 interface, or a USB 2.0 24/192 that'll require driver installation for Windows, assuming both sound similar on real-world content (that is, 16/44.1)?


----------



## MrScary

jason stoddard said:


> A couple of answers:
> 
> Yes, all DACs will have TOSLINK optical and coax SPDIF, as well as USB. The top-end models may have a different interface as well.
> 
> ...




Guess USB is Schiit. Haha I already knew that one that's why I don't use USB


----------



## Misterrogers

Interesting question - and I'm sure likely to illicit a wide range of responses. As one who spends time every day tracking down 24/96 and 24/88.2 well recorded source (with the occasional 24/192 - though my current 'chain' downsamples), I'd prefer the latter (USB 2.0 24/192 with win driver). I notice and enjoy the sonic improvements in a well recorded, mixed and mastered song. Also being a developer and general tech geek - I prefer the leading edge, and will almost always assume the risk of slightly less stability for higher performance.


----------



## hp300plus

Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> The big question, though, is: would you rather have a bulletproof 24/96 no-driver USB 1.1 interface, or a USB 2.0 24/192 that'll require driver installation for Windows, assuming both sound similar on real-world content (that is, 16/44.1)?


 
   
  For what's it's worth, maybe it really comes down to a cost factor?  Entry at 24/96 and mid + high grade at 24/192?  I personally bought the Lyr as the high grade amp in the line (love it BTW), and depending on the costs, am planning on purchasing the entry level DAC this June and then upgrading to the high grade DAC when it comes out later in the year.
  
  EDIT: I should say if there is a 'different interface' in the high end model that rhymes with 'W'underbolt or it's name has a 3.0 in it, then you'll be generously addressing a lot of the 'tech geeks' wants/desires.  Me included.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> A couple of answers:
> 
> Yes, all DACs will have TOSLINK optical and coax SPDIF, as well as USB. The top-end models may have a different interface as well.
> 
> ...


 
  Since I'm a Mac guy, my vote is only worth 1/2 point, but I really think ideally, both options should be available to the customer base.  The stock implementation should be no driver required, and the higher res option should be, just that, an option, if available at all.


----------



## grokit

I use both platforms, and vote for the most hassle free option. But I would mess with a driver if it gave me access to higher rez files in Windows. Is it possible to have a driverless default that goes up to 96k, and then have a Windows driver available to install if one wants 192k?


----------



## olor1n

Mac user here. I'd utilise optical but I'd want hassle free 24/96 via usb as back up.


----------



## MangoMonkey

Jason,
   
  I think what YOU want (really), is a bulletproof 24/96 usb. I really don't know whether you want to get into the business of writing device drivers for windows. What's worse, you'll have to also spend time maintaining them. That's what'll be the expensive part.
   
  Are you going to make a driver just for windows 7? What about vista? what about windows xp? 32 bit OS? 64 bit OS? What about windows 8? mac? Why not Linux?
   
  At the very least, you'll have to spend time testing and verifying that it works on each one of these supported platforms. And bugs. What about bugs? Will you also have the infrastructure to get bug reports and crash dumps from folks to investigate crashes that will inevitably occur?
   
  I honestly don't think you have the infrastructure to take this on.
   
  Now, from a customer perspective:
   
  The Mac folks seem to have a SPDIF out, so they're golden.
  Let's look at the windows folks:
  a) They have a PC (like I do) with both coax and optical out. We're set too, and couldn't care less about usb because like you said, optical is better.
  b) They have a laptop/cheap pc without optical out. Dude, just suck it up. We're giving you 24/96 bulletproof. what more do you want? If you really can spend $20 an album to get higher res, just pony up the money to get a decent soundcard with optical out or a laptop with coax.
   
  Seriously though. How much music is really available today, in higher res?
   
  A better question to put to folks might be:
  a) How much high res music do they have today?
  b) How much high res do they see getting in the future. And the high res folks: since they're so obstinate about sound quality, will they use usb, or coax?


----------



## Jason Stoddard

Quote: 





mangomonkey said:


> Jason,
> 
> I think what YOU want (really), is a bulletproof 24/96 usb. I really don't know whether you want to get into the business of writing device drivers for windows. What's worse, you'll have to also spend time maintaining them. That's what'll be the expensive part.
> 
> ...


 

 This is excellent input, and it mirrors our own internal discussions.
   
  So, to "open the kimono" a bit more: we have both 24/96 bulletproof everywhere and 24/192 USB 2.0 running. No real difference in cost. No real difference in sound. Either can go in the entry-level DAC. SPDIF does 24/192 anyway. Windows XP, Vista, and 7 drivers available for USB 2.0 version, Mac doesn't require drivers.
   
  But yeah, there's the PITA of installing drivers, answering emails about why drivers didn't install, calls, etc, etc. Believe me, 24/96 is much more appealing in terms of support. It's very, very tempting to say, "24/96 is it for USB." 
   
  So yes, let's ask: how much music do you have in high-res, and how important is it? How much is 24/192? 
   
  (And, while we're at it, have you ever thought about what 24 bits really means? I mean, no commercial DAC can really reproduce 24 bits. Nor can any commercial ADC record it. And no delta-sigma DAC is outputting the actual bits that went in. And every 24/192 upsampler is throwing away the original bits anyway. Not that we'd do upsampling. Those are the elephants in the room. We'll talk more about those as time goes on.)
   
  .


----------



## olor1n

Quote: 





mangomonkey said:


> b) How much high res do they see getting in the future. And the high res folks: since they're so obstinate about sound quality, will they use usb, or coax?


 

 Valid points there MM. Resistance to fool proof 24/96 should be countered by this last question lol.


----------



## grokit

Would it be possible to make the usb receiver swappable and therefore futureproof?


----------



## hp300plus

Quote: 





olor1n said:


> Valid points there MM. Resistance to fool proof 24/96 should be countered by this last question lol.


 

 Indeed. Hats off for telling it like it is - a proverbial touché.  Personally sold on the 24/96 bulletproof when put in perspective.  
   
  As far as future-proofing, you have to wonder when the "24/192 mainstream availability" future will actually become reality.  It's understandable why so many offer it now (even 32 bit chips) because "it's the next best thing" in what's becoming (or arguably has become) a saturated market.  
   
  I'll put my money on a quality product that works beautifully over the latest and greatest that I can't really take advantage of to begin with.


----------



## Kremer930

I am a Mac user and was ready to put my cash down on a M2tech Young until Jason mentioned a DAC or three in the works. 

My optical output seems to max at 24/96 and I have played with USB output at 24/192 but decided that the sound was nicer out of optical. 

That said, I would choose 192 as this is a tech area and surely Apple will move away from Redbook in the not too distant future. There are certainly rumours of high res iPods and iTunes circulating. 

It is just so easy for me to run a music server via iTunes and Mac because of the user friendly and refined user interface. 

Can I put down a deposit yet?


----------



## vrln

Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> This is excellent input, and it mirrors our own internal discussions.
> 
> So, to "open the kimono" a bit more: we have both 24/96 bulletproof everywhere and 24/192 USB 2.0 running. No real difference in cost. No real difference in sound. Either can go in the entry-level DAC. SPDIF does 24/192 anyway. Windows XP, Vista, and 7 drivers available for USB 2.0 version, Mac doesn't require drivers.
> 
> ...


 

 MangoMonkeys post mirrored my thoughts 100%. If (and that´s a big if) HD audio someday gains more market share via Apple or whoever, I´m pretty sure it won´t be 24/192. There´s no reason for that - for the common consumer 24/96 is plenty enough, and as you mentioned there´s the whole sound science thing too  Noone has been able to differentiate 24/96 and 24/192 in blind tests either.
   
  I´d much rather see a small, growing niche company like Schiit not overburden themselves with having to maintain driver software. Personally, if I see an audio product that requires custom drivers, it´s an instant no buy for me. I´m in Linux most of the time (yeah, I bought a HiFace on the promise there would be Linux drivers - still nothing, and even if they come up with those someday, they will be incompatible with the current kernel in no time) and even in Windows I dislike having to use custom drivers, especially for niche hardware.
   
  My vote goes for 24/96...


----------



## Wedge

Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> (And, while we're at it, have you ever thought about what 24 bits really means? I mean, no commercial DAC can really reproduce 24 bits. Nor can any commercial ADC record it. And no delta-sigma DAC is outputting the actual bits that went in. And every 24/192 upsampler is throwing away the original bits anyway. Not that we'd do upsampling. Those are the elephants in the room. We'll talk more about those as time goes on.)


 

 So you're going to use a delta-sigma DAC?


----------



## bumblingbooby

Quote: 





mrscary said:


> I agree with that USB is truly the new river that runs through HELL it sux I don't use


 
   
  Quote: 





mrscary said:


> Thank god someone else feels the same way that USB sucks I would never use it for audio unless I was on the road with my laptop then I would use my IBasso D6 but at home USB? hahahhaa


 
   
  Quote: 





mrscary said:


> Guess USB is Schiit. Haha I already knew that one that's why I don't use USB


 
   
  Well I'm glad we've established that much.


----------



## Jason Stoddard

Quote: 





grokit said:


> Would it be possible to make the usb receiver swappable and therefore futureproof?


 


  Ding ding ding ding!


----------



## Dynobot

Interesting discussion here.
   
  Progressive.
   
  I've been into Computer audio for more than a decade and have probably been in and/or read countless discussions that revolve around the same things over and over.  I'd like to see where this will end up.  I use a slightly novel approach to USB myself.


----------



## Jason Stoddard

Quote: 





wedge said:


> So you're going to use a delta-sigma DAC?


 


  No matter how you color it: "advanced segment," "multibit delta-sigma," "hyperstream and dynamic matching," every commercially available 24-bit DAC IC except for the PCM1704 is delta-sigma. And the PCM1704 won't do 192kHz--and to our ears, it sounds kinda, well, boring. So yes, some models will use delta-sigma. Some won't.


----------



## Dynobot

Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> And the PCM1704 won't do 192kHz--and to our ears, it sounds kinda, well, boring. So yes, some models will use delta-sigma. Some won't


 


  In that case AKM might be the ticket....they seem to have a more lively presentation.


----------



## Misterrogers

Great discussion - both from a knowledge perspective and for peeking under the kimono  I listen to alot of vinyl rips - for the most part, only those produced by specific individuals who use high end equipment with great care (no declick, etc.). Most of the better rips I listen to are 24/96. It's hard to say that the 24/192 rips are inherently better. Some of them seem to have better separation and more 'air'. Though my bias may be towards 24/192 USB, as we consider the pros/cons - I'd have to say that for Schiit as a company I think you should opt for either capping at 24/96 with no driver support or 24/192 on systems that can support it without drivers. Supporting software will suck the life out of you. Trust me.


----------



## grokit

After further consideration I think that anyone that really needs 192k over 96k could easily figure out how to feed the DAC with coax/toslink instead of usb. 192/usb would still be a nice feature, but it's not entirely necessary.


----------



## 45longcolt

First, all thanks to Jason for being so in touch with us music lovers/customers.
   
  Second, how about bulletproof 24/96 for the first (entry) DAC, but 24/192 for the Big Bertha (which can't come soon enough for me) whose users are more likely to be able and willing to do what it takes to make full use of the technology?
  
  Third, Misterogers, I think you mean "elicit" when you referred to responses. Illicit means illegal, which doesn't apply here (hopefully.) Sorry, can't help myself, ex-editor...


----------



## Misterrogers

Ha! yes, you are correct. It's risky for me to attempt communication before I've had my coffee.


----------



## MrScary

bumblingbooby said:


> Well I'm glad we've established that much.




hahahahaha that's me when it comes to USB


----------



## K3cT

Jason, please use the Wolfson WM874x chips. They are pretty lovely.


----------



## sridhar3

Quote:


k3ct said:


> Jason, please use the Wolfson WM874x chips. They are pretty lovely.


 

 Sabre32 IMO.


----------



## Dynobot

IMO the most musical Dac chips are the TDA154x chips.  Judging from the years of buzz around the net concerning Dac chips the TDA chips gets the most nods from the DIYers and Modders it seems.  Even here, look at the huge Valab thread...out of the thousands of Valab/Teradak Dacs sold you hardly ever see them for sale. 
   
  Just my 0.02, but I don't think Schiit is taking suggestions so what ever they end up with should sound fine and convey their intent for what sounds best to them.
   
  About the 1704 sounding boring, well to each his own...but then having driven both a Miata and a Corvette I would say the Miata is more fun to drive.


----------



## falis

Quote: 





misterrogers said:


> Interesting question - and I'm sure likely to illicit a wide range of responses. As one who spends time every day tracking down 24/96 and 24/88.2 well recorded source (with the occasional 24/192 - though my current 'chain' downsamples), I'd prefer the latter (USB 2.0 24/192 with win driver). I notice and enjoy the sonic improvements in a well recorded, mixed and mastered song. Also being a developer and general tech geek - I prefer the leading edge, and will almost always assume the risk of slightly less stability for higher performance.


 

 That becomes limiting for users of other OS's though.
   
  - Ed


----------



## MrScary

I say use Spdif or optical. I cannot figure out why everyone is so worried about USB. Guess its me I just kicked my dead horse again


----------



## Misterrogers

Certainly - use optical whenever possible. Though it's never going to be as good as other inputs, USB can at times be necessary or preferable (not sonically, but say to interface with a device only having USB). For those times I'm sure everyone wants the best possible USB implementation.


----------



## jerikl

You guys are a hardware company. Leave the USB support at 24/96. If the SPDIF implementation really is that much better than USB, why would one want to listen to 24/192 on USB anyway? It doesn't make any logical sense other than being the only input the user has available to them (time for a new soundcard or laptop).
   
  BTW, I just got the Asgard ... and I can't freaking wait for you to come out with a DAC so I can be done with my upgrade ... ready to start listening to music again without mucking with my system.


----------



## DemonicLemming

USB is great for the little amp I have sitting on my desk at work (Travagans White, and I love the thing).  But, for my "Never gonna move off my desk" home rig, optical all the way.  I tried the USB input once, gagged as soon as the music started, and promptly switched back to optical.
   
  So, I'd vote for 24/96 USB.  24/196 is great and all, but outside of (boring) classical, where am I ever going to find regular music recorded that way?  Hell, finding any sort of metal on SACD is hard enough.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





grokit said:


> After further consideration I think that anyone that really needs 192k over 96k could easily figure out how to feed the DAC with coax/toslink instead of usb. 192/usb would still be a nice feature, but it's not entirely necessary.


 
   
  I totally agree.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





grokit said:


> After further consideration I think that anyone that really needs 192k over 96k could easily figure out how to feed the DAC with coax/toslink instead of usb. 192/usb would still be a nice feature, but it's not entirely necessary.


 


  How would you do that out of an iMac?


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> How would you do that out of an iMac?


 
   
  The Mac isn't capable of rates over 96k. You would need an alternative interface such as M2Tech Hiface usb-coax converter to achieve 24/192z.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





grokit said:


> The Mac isn't capable of rates over 96k. You would need an alternative interface such as M2Tech Hiface usb-coax converter to achieve 24/192z.


 
  Ah. I'm new to computer audio.  My application Audio MIDI Setup show a rate selection up to 192 so I'm confused. It seems like my Mac can produce 192K 32 bit output.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> Ah. I'm new to computer audio.  My application Audio MIDI Setup show a rate selection up to 192 so I'm confused.


 

 Really? Mine just shows 96, but if you have 192 then you could just plug one of these in:
  http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002JFN1A/ref=s9_bbs_gw_d0_ir02?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=1Q649E3ZRM9XFZNTB1FD&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=470938631&pf_rd_i=507846
   
  Also I did a quick Google and I found this:
  http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/Trouble-192khz-output-new-Mac-Mini-Benchmark-DAC1-HDR
   
  It's confusing. Evidently the hardware is capable of 192 but the OS is limiting the sample rate to 96. My usb-coax converter is 96 on my Mac so I haven't tried 192, but the unused digital (optical) audio out only goes up to 96 in my midi setup app. I am current, 10.6.7 with all updates.
   
  Apple: "The headphone / line output jack accommodates digital optical audio output, analog audio output with a 24-bit, 44.1-192 kHz D/A converter, digital audio output up to 24-bit stereo and 44.1-192 kHz sampling rate and supporting encoded digital audio output (AC3 and DTS)."


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





grokit said:


> Really? Mine just shows 96, but if you have 192 then you could just plug one of these in:
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002JFN1A/ref=s9_bbs_gw_d0_ir02?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=1Q649E3ZRM9XFZNTB1FD&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=470938631&pf_rd_i=507846
> 
> Also I did a quick Google and I found this:
> ...


 

 Sorry Grokit I'm new to computer audio and todays DAC's. My last DAC was a THETA Ds Pre Gen III.  all I had to do was plug in the interconnects and turn it on.  I should have mentioned I'm using a W4S DAC-2 now and I'm still a little confused over all the SPDIF out.  The DAC-2 when selected in the Audio MIDI Setup allows 192K 32bit through the USB port.  Is TOSLINK better to use?
   
  Sorry to derail this thread. I saw that TOSLINK statement and had to ask...


----------



## grokit

I think the usb on the Mac is fine, if I was to convert it would be from usb to coax. Toslink may be limited to 96k anyways, according to that CA thread I linked to so I would stick with the usb for now, your w4s should be quite capable and Macs are known for having decent usb audio.
   
  You could get a silver usb cable if you subscribe to such things


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





grokit said:


> I think the usb on the Mac is fine, if I was to convert it would be from usb to coax. Toslink may be limited to 96k anyways, according to that CA thread I linked to so I would stick with the usb for now, your w4s should be quite capable and Macs are known for having decent usb audio.
> 
> You could get a silver usb cable if you subscribe to such things


----------



## Roller

As long as there's a solid 24/96 USB support, it can have optical, coax, FW, XLR, pixie dust, the works. But USB is absolutely essential, as it is indeed the most ubiquitous bus there is, and not everyone has the other options on their systems.


----------



## MrScary

roller said:


> As long as there's a solid 24/96 USB support, it can have optical, coax, FW, XLR, pixie dust, the works. But USB is absolutely essential, as it is indeed the most ubiquitous bus there is, and not everyone has the other options on their systems.




Buy a better sound card


----------



## mhamel

MrScary - Changing the sound card isn't an option for everyone.... laptops, all-in-ones, mini PCs, etc.
   
   
  Jason - 
   
  My $0.02 is that simple, solid 24bit/96KHz USB is better than Schiit having to deal with drivers and all the associated issues, cross-platform compatibility, etc.     Building the USB input section on a modular card is a great idea for future-proofing, but is that realistic on the lower end models while still keeping costs down?  I could definitely see that in the higher end product.  I think having 24/96 over USB with the option to go higher via optical, coax and whatever other format you're thinking of (AES/EBU?) covers the largest overall base.
   
       -Mike


----------



## MrScary

mhamel said:


> MrScary - Changing the sound card isn't an option for everyone.... laptops, all-in-ones, mini PCs, etc.
> 
> 
> Jason -
> ...












I should have said that better since the computer is your first point in the audio chain buy a better computer.. I have 4 laptops and not one do I use for audio. if a person is willing to buy a DAC for 500.00, then spend 500.00 for an audio workstation.


----------



## hp300plus

Quote: 





sridhar3 said:


> Sabre32 IMO.


 


  +1 on ESS ES9012 (for 2 channel).


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





mrscary said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

  
  Excuse me?


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





mhamel said:


> MrScary - Changing the sound card isn't an option for everyone.... laptops, all-in-ones, mini PCs, etc.
> 
> 
> Jason -
> ...


 


  Agreed.
   
  Seems like commoners have to sell organs on the black market to be able to buy new things, because only new things work properly. LOL @ MrScary.


----------



## Kiwikat

It's nearly June! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  I think I'll be getting a Valhalla with my first paycheck from my new job.  Then I'll likely grab the cheaper DAC right off the bat.  It's definitely time to move up from the FiiO's...


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





kiwikat said:


> It's nearly June!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Your Sennheisers will probably like the Asgard better, and you'd save 100 bux towards the new DAC


----------



## Hero Kid

Hey you never know... Jason might offer a "combo" deal. Hell I'm hopeful :S


----------



## LiqTenExp

Do we know what day yet the release of the dac product info/order info will be jason?


----------



## Jason Stoddard

Hey guys--we'll definitely announce this month, but remember, this month has 30 full days in it . . .
   
  Seriously, though, it'll probably be between the middle and end of the month. Mike and I are doing some final tweaks and finishing up the orders for production now. Expect it to go something like this:
   
  June 15-30: First DAC announcement, and some details on the next ones. 
  August 15-30: First DAC ships.
   
  And, oh yeah . . . the first DAC's name is: Bifrost. 
   
  You heard it here first!


----------



## Snips

Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> Hey guys--we'll definitely announce this month, but remember, this month has 30 full days in it . . .
> 
> Seriously, though, it'll probably be between the middle and end of the month. Mike and I are doing some final tweaks and finishing up the orders for production now. Expect it to go something like this:
> 
> ...


 

 Bifrost? Awesome!


----------



## rymd

I don't know a thing about norse mythology... is that pronounced "bih-frost," "bye-frost," "beef-roast," or...?


----------



## Hero Kid

Thanks for the update Jason! You've made me more excited and worried, how am I gong to afford one of these puppies? :S


----------



## Eee Pee

> In Norse mythology, Bifröst or Bilröst is a burning rainbow bridge that reaches between Midgard (the world) and Asgard, the realm of the gods






> Bifrost is a backdoor trojan horse family of more than 10 variants which can infect Windows 95 through Windows 7.




Hah.


----------



## DemonicLemming

No Thor action-figure posing on top of it then, Heimdallr might get a little mad.
   
  Depending on the price point, I'm really considering using one of these DACs in a Christmas-y time Magnepan setup.
  
  Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> Hey guys--we'll definitely announce this month, but remember, this month has 30 full days in it . . .
> 
> Seriously, though, it'll probably be between the middle and end of the month. Mike and I are doing some final tweaks and finishing up the orders for production now. Expect it to go something like this:
> 
> ...


----------



## Hero Kid

Quote: 





eee pee said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Wow. You clever bugger Jason.


----------



## maverickronin

That's probably the best name so far.
   
  The Rainbow Bridge between digital and analog.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> Hey guys--we'll definitely announce this month, but remember, this month has 30 full days in it . . .
> 
> Seriously, though, it'll probably be between the middle and end of the month. Mike and I are doing some final tweaks and finishing up the orders for production now. Expect it to go something like this:
> 
> ...


 
  Oh, that's cold Jason.


----------



## MrScary

demoniclemming said:


> No Thor action-figure posing on top of it then, Heimdallr might get a little mad.
> 
> Depending on the price point, I'm really considering using one of these DACs in a Christmas-y time Magnepan setup.




So the High end Dac's will be out probably next year I'm guessing. Well gives me time to save


----------



## bumblingbooby

Bifrost? The wait and suspense in anticipation of the release of this DAC is leading to Permafrost.


----------



## Balazska26

Nope, I have heard it before 
  The bridge to Asgard in Norse mythology...can't wait to have one.
  
  Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> Hey guys--we'll definitely announce this month, but remember, this month has 30 full days in it . . .
> 
> Seriously, though, it'll probably be between the middle and end of the month. Mike and I are doing some final tweaks and finishing up the orders for production now. Expect it to go something like this:
> 
> ...


----------



## Benjamin6264

I hope it doesn't run hot like the amps


----------



## mikenike

Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> Hey guys--we'll definitely announce this month, but remember, this month has 30 full days in it . . .
> 
> Seriously, though, it'll probably be between the middle and end of the month. Mike and I are doing some final tweaks and finishing up the orders for production now. Expect it to go something like this:
> 
> ...


 

 That's so funny. I finally watched _Thor_ yesterday, and the whole time when hearing "Asgard," I kept thinking about headphone amps. You Schiit guys and your Norse mythology fascination. Anyway, will be getting the Lyr soon enough, and hungrily waiting for Bifrost news.


----------



## MangoMonkey

You should really make the announcement before father's day.


----------



## IMAWolf

hmm... maybe bifrost will be the mid DAC and they will name the entry level one Midgard?


----------



## Snips

Quote: 





imawolf said:


> hmm... maybe bifrost will be the mid DAC and they will name the entry level one Midgard?


 


  I think the first DAC to be announced is the entry level, so Bifrost is probably the entry level DAC.


----------



## DemonicLemming

Gungnir for the nicer DAC, maybe?
  
  Quote: 





snips said:


> I think the first DAC to be announced is the entry level, so Bifrost is probably the entry level DAC.


----------



## gh0st0

Quote: 





demoniclemming said:


> Gungnir for the nicer DAC, maybe?


 

 Hopefully one day Schiit will have enough products to compose the lyrics to an entire Turisas song ;/


----------



## DemonicLemming

If they can do lyrics for Tyr and Korpiklanni too, even better.
   
  Which reminds me, I need to queue "Stand Up and Fight" in foobar tonight and give it a listen.
  
  Quote: 





gh0st0 said:


> Hopefully one day Schiit will have enough products to compose the lyrics to an entire Turisas song ;/


----------



## 45longcolt

Schiit should make a 2,500 wpc amp and call it Gotterdammerung. Just the thing for playing Wagner on HE-6s...


----------



## maverickronin

Quote: 





45longcolt said:


> Schiit should make a 2,500 wpc amp and call it Gotterdammerung. Just the thing for playing Wagner on HE-6s...


 

 I think you're gonna have to go class G on that one...


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





45longcolt said:


> Schiit should make a 2,500 wpc amp and call it Gotterdammerung. Just the thing for playing Wagner on HE-6s...


 

 You want to listen to Wagner using a Schiit Gotterdammerung playing into a Hifiman HE6?  I think Wagner would be more of a Sennheiser HD800 or Beyer T1 sort of guy.


----------



## maverickronin

Quote: 





anaxilus said:


> You want to listen to Wagner using a Schiit Gotterdammerung playing into a Hifiman HE6?  I think Wagner would be more of a Sennheiser HD800 or Beyer T1 sort of guy.


 

 I think the HE-6s are less likely to explode in a shower of copper shrapnel if a fly lands on the volume dial...


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





maverickronin said:


> I think the HE-6s are less likely to explode in a shower of copper shrapnel if a fly lands on the volume dial...


 

 Yeah but imagine the 3D imaging!


----------



## maverickronin

Quote: 





anaxilus said:


> Yeah but imagine the 3D imaging!


 

 Maybe if you run half a dozen stepped attenuators in series or add a digital volume control...


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

Schiit names their products based of Norse mythological PLACES. Gungnir isn't a place.

In any case, I'm considering keeping my HE4 and getting another Lyr in the future, so I need a DAC to go with it.... >__<


----------



## samh

i almost have mixed feelings about the DAC announcement - i have dreams of pairing a schiit DAC with a lyr, but at the same time i don't think my budget can take any other hits at this point...


----------



## FrimanizzlE

[size=medium]The only thing that mixes my feelings, is the waiting time...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Sure would like the super-duper-dac to go with my Lyr...
   
  Well its X-mas before you know it, and then I just might buy myself a "Odin-Thor-whatever-top-notch-above-all-and-state-of-the-art" DAC as a personal pressant for my ears....
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


​[/size]


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

I believe their end of the year DAC will be called the Ragnarok... the doom of the gods.  It's an event not a place, but COME ON Schiit. XD


----------



## maverickronin

Quote: 





mad lust envy said:


> I believe their end of the year DAC will be called the Ragnarok... the doom of the gods.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 On the plus side, if Bifrost, the rainbow bridge, counts as a place then Yggdrasil, the world tree, must count as a place too.


----------



## Jason Stoddard

Hey all,
   
  Just a quick update: we'll be making our official announcement about Bifrost on June 30. As soon as we announce, complete details will be available on the site, including the beloved FAQ.
   
  Yeah, I know, we're skating till the end of the month, we're terrible people, etcetera, etcetera. But Mike really really wants this perfect. 
   
  Wish us happy birthday--Schiit is one year old today!
   
  All the best,
  Jason


----------



## ocswing

Thanks for the heads up Jason, and happy birthday to you guys!
   
  Looking forward to the end of the month. I've got that long to save for a Lyr and maybe the Bifrost!


----------



## Denys

Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> Hey all,
> 
> Just a quick update: we'll be making our official announcement about Bifrost on June 30. As soon as we announce, complete details will be available on the site, including the beloved FAQ.
> 
> ...


 

 So my Asgard is almost a year old (S/N 140) !!!! An I haven't used my warranty yet !!! Damn !!!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Hey !! Today is also my mom's B-Day....she would have turned 80 !!!
   
  Anyway, I also look forward to this DAC to match with the Asgard !!!
   
  Happy Birthday to your team...
   
  Denys


----------



## Wedge

Happy Birthday Schiit Audio!


----------



## Koolpep

Happy Birthday from Dubai!!
   
  I only know one more Dubai head-fier but between the two of use we already have 3 Schiits and I bet soon 5 following your announcement.  Please make sure you think about your distributors in the region too
   
  All the best wishes for the next year....


----------



## helluvapixel

That's like waving candy in front of a kid!!! No fair!... Well a couple more weeks to get $ for the Lyr + DAC purchase I guess.


----------



## Dynobot

I was going to bite, but now I am waiting for the Asus Essence One Dac/Headamp.  Guess I just like being teased...


----------



## USAudio

I hope one of their DAC's offers preamp functionality with a digitally controlled discrete *analog* volume control.  But not a pot.
   
  E.g. Perhaps something like what Lavry did with the DA11 or W4S did with their STP Preamp (not their DAC which has a digital volume control).
  I believe Meier has done something similar as well.


----------



## khaos974

I've found the ideal speakers to match the Schitt Bifrost.





Behold the Seas Bifrost speakers.


----------



## Killbox

What will be the price for this one?  Just wondering if I'll just buy Matrix Mini-i or wait..


----------



## helluvapixel

No hints that I know of. If I was to guess, $300-$500 to be inline with Asgard to Lyr. Knowing them, it'll be something crazy like $250. hehehe (I doubt).


----------



## BournePerfect

But those speakers aren't silver? Damn I wish Schitt's crap was black...lol
   
  -Daniel

  
  Quote: 





khaos974 said:


> I've found the ideal speakers to match the Schitt Bifrost.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## kongmw

one more week till announcement? man I'm super excited. i have been in the market for a entry level stand-alone DAC for a few months and decided to hold off after hearing that there's one or more coming from Schiit Audio. this is going to be good!


----------



## helluvapixel

I can't believe no final teasers either !! *HINT*


----------



## ninjikiran

Hey my bday is on june 30th
  Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> Hey all,
> 
> Just a quick update: we'll be making our official announcement about Bifrost on June 30. As soon as we announce, complete details will be available on the site, including the beloved FAQ.
> 
> ...


----------



## swbf2cheater

Happy birthday !  Can't wait for it, hopefully it will be made available soon as I am looking for a good dac


----------



## Killbox

Is the dac only being relased the 30th, or do they ship it out right away as well?


----------



## MtnSloth

Unless I missed something, it is announce June 30 and ship sometime in August.
  Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> Hey guys--we'll definitely announce this month, but remember, this month has 30 full days in it . . .
> 
> Seriously, though, it'll probably be between the middle and end of the month. Mike and I are doing some final tweaks and finishing up the orders for production now. Expect it to go something like this:
> 
> ...


 
  Hope that helps, Killbox.


----------



## Kremer930

I am pretty sure that it will be announced on 27 th. The Lyr was announced on a 27th as well. Not sure about shipping. Hope it is not far away. Can't wait to hear what it is like.


----------



## rsgladwin85

Well the 27th is over for me.  I can wait no longer to go to bed.  Here's to hoping I wake up with a release announcement.


----------



## Jason Stoddard

Hey all,
   
  We're busy working on the site--hopefully launching a new shopping cart that's easier to use and offers more payment options (Google Checkout, PayPal)--before the Bifrost announcement.
   
  Expect the actual announcement to happen on the 30th . . . and expect it to be worth the wait. 
   
  All the best,
  Jason


----------



## obazavil

Wowowowow 
   
  *rubbing hands*
   
  3 more days to go


----------



## Benjamin6264

I hope that the Bifrost will be good enough to go along well with Lyr + HE-6. Otherwise I'll have to wait for the other DAC's.
   
  Anyway, really excited with a new product from Schiit.


----------



## hp300plus

Thanks for keeping us updated, Jason!  Anxious as ever to hear what Schitt you guys cooked up!!!


----------



## Kremer930

Thanks for the update Jason. Means that I can stop checking your website for a couple of days. Exciting times.


----------



## Sorensiim

Sort of looking for a new dac, I stumbled accross this thread. 
   
  Now I'm pretty sure I can wait, the old DAC will be fine until the Bifrost (brilliant choice of name for a DAC btw!!) starts shipping. Can't wait!


----------



## rsgladwin85

Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> Hey all,
> 
> We're busy working on the site--hopefully launching a new shopping cart that's easier to use and offers more payment options (Google Checkout, PayPal)--before the Bifrost announcement.
> 
> ...


 


  Well you can expect a transfer of funds from my account to you on the 30th.  I would wait for reviews, but seeing how all of your other items did when they were released that might mean I wont get my hands on one for a couple months.  Might be nice if I could get my hands on number 00001, or possibly 387 to match my Lyr.


----------



## livewire




----------



## justie

Don suppose we can get a amp + dac combo offer? XP


----------



## Sorensiim

Quote: 





justie said:


> Don suppose we can get a amp + dac combo offer? XP


 


  I was quite happy about my new amp and then you go and post something like that. person.


----------



## Dynobot




----------



## uelover

1 more day? =)


----------



## obazavil

almost there....
   
  don't... spend... money... on... DACs....


----------



## Dynobot

Quote: 





obazavil said:


> almost there....
> 
> don't... spend... money... on... DACs....


 


  To late I am already aDac'ed
   
  In the past 2 years I have probably purchased 5 Dac's kept 2 and have another 3 more on my short list.


----------



## Viper2005

So I noticed that Jason mentioned that the second DAC will be true multi bit as opposed to delta sigma. Can someone explain to me what the benefits/drawbacks of multi bit is over delta sigma... is the difference very apparent sonically?


----------



## MrScary

Anyone want to guess the cost of the first DAC?


----------



## kongmw

Quote: 





mrscary said:


> Anyone want to guess the cost of the first DAC?


 

 I'd say close to the Asgard maybe (hopefully)? If I have to put a number to it, $299 would be my guess.


----------



## Killbox

Since this is the entry model, I belive they can't charge more than their most expensive amp...


----------



## Koolpep

I am guessing (totally unfounded) $199
   
  That would make the same kind of wave than the Asgard (which I bought) with a fantastic value/money ratio.
  And to follow up on the other DAC threads: It will have left-turning ion-enhanced biotic-potential neuron-DACs, 3.5 for each channel to create a sum of lucky 7 which in turn is the best for solid state, soft state, half-tube and 3/4th tube amps.
   
  Ok. Now serious: Same prices as the Asgard/Valhalla/Lyr (am missing the Lyr but as Asgard and Valhalla are already so good there is incentive yet to buy one, damn).
  Names: Bifrost/Heterofrost/UnicornStable
   
  Sorry, Jason, this always happens when I had a few glasses of this great italian Valpolicella... I also hate to say it but here in the Middle East, it's close to Midnight already, 1.5hours and the 30th is there....


----------



## Dynobot

Any pre-order volume discounts ????


----------



## Dynobot

$750
   
  Problem is, many "Audiophiles"  automatically dismiss lower priced products as inferior.
   
  In the world of Dacs Eastern Electric marked the lower limit of respectability for a Audiophile-Approved Dac.
   
  Head-amps is a different story....lower priced head-amps still gain respect amongst the Audiophile community.
   
  Below $500 will put it in the mists of DacMagic et.al, which is good for sales but to many no matter how good the review, the low-ish price would not gain them respect in the Audiophile community.
   
  Just my 0.02


----------



## MrScary

Im guessing the cost to be around 399.99


----------



## Viper2005

Quote: 





dynobot said:


> $750
> 
> Problem is, many "Audiophiles"  automatically dismiss lower priced products as inferior.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Don't forget this is their 'entry level' DAC, so I would expect it to be cheaper than $750.   My guess is this will cost around $350.
 However I would think their second DAC later this year would be closer to 800.


----------



## livewire




----------



## hp300plus

$750 is quite steep and will certainly deter what I believe to be majority of their target market. These guys pride themselves on offering quality equipment at reasonable prices. My take is they won't stray here on on the DAC line. Also, I disagree with the 'audiophile' snooty price price point required; for me, it's the reviews and respect a company gains and Schiit has earned that badge with their amp line in my opinion.
   
  P.S.  This is taken directly from their site:  
   
*Built to Last—But Sensibly Priced *
_All of our products are overbuilt. They’re intended to be something you can pass down to your children. That’s why we back them with a full 5-year warranty. But, at the same time, our stuff is affordable, because we’ve taken great pains to make it easy to manufacture—so easy, we can make Schiit in the USA for prices similar to Chinese products. Just ask Rina, our production master and head of operations._
   
   

  Quote: 





dynobot said:


> $750
> 
> Problem is, many "Audiophiles"  automatically dismiss lower priced products as inferior.
> 
> ...


----------



## BournePerfect

$349 is my guess. A perfect mid-level price that could prove to be a great bang-for-the-buck if it's on the same playing field as $5-800 dacs. It would also (psychologically, perhaps) put it a cut above all the other $99-250 dacs that are vying for everyone's dollar these days. Plus that would give Schiit the leeway it needs to price their flagship dac around $7-800 later this fall which would keep the two dacs from undercutting each other. My .02.
   
  -Daniel


----------



## obazavil

I think it will be around ~350... but if it costs $150 i won't complain... at all.... 
   
  Now... 750 for me is a NO-NO definitely


----------



## Jason Stoddard

Seven-fiddy? Ahhahahhahahahahaaaa! That's funny. That ain't entry-level, except in some alternate audiophile universe where hundred-dollar bills grow on gold-plated trees with happily glowing vacuum-tube flowers.
   
  For not much more than that price, we'll redefine the *entire* state of the art. For now, we'll settle for redefining "entry level."
   
  And no, we don't particularly care about the impact our pricing has on perception or reviews. If we cared about stuff like that, we wouldn't have named ourselves "Schiit." We're having fun. If people like our stuff, then cool. If they don't, then cool as well. No biggie. This ain't saving the world or curing cancer or discovering a new principle in physics!
   
  And respect? Mike Moffat, dude. 
   
  (Doing some testing on the cart, hopefully will be able to send the press release and put the announcement/pre-order thread up tomorrow AM, not PM.)


----------



## MrScary

My new guess for the cost is 379.99 hahaha


----------



## TheWuss

very nice, Jason. can't wait to check in tomorrow and read more...


----------



## livewire

Tree-fiddy?


----------



## shaunybaby

Its so close to the 30th about 20mins off, im about to buy a lyr and i would love a new dac as well.


----------



## obazavil

@Jason
   
  Cmon!
   
  We are already in June 30 in Japan timezone... you are late with the announcement!


----------



## shaunybaby

within the next 24 hours this thread is really going to start to heat up


----------



## Dynobot




----------



## Kremer930

Hi Jason
   
  So given that it is almost D Day....will you be sharing any further teasers?
   
  Cheers


----------



## BournePerfect

How do the preorders work with Schiit? Do they charge right away or when it ships? And for the love of ANYTHING Jason make a B.L.A.C.K. lineup already!!!!!!!!!!!! PLEASE! 
   
  -Daniel


----------



## rsgladwin85

Quote: 





bourneperfect said:


> How do the preorders work with Schiit? Do they charge right away or when it ships? And for the love of ANYTHING Jason make a B.L.A.C.K. lineup already!!!!!!!!!!!! PLEASE!
> 
> -Daniel


 

 They dont charge until it ships.  That's in the FAQ area of their site.


----------



## kongmw

It's the 30th now (well on EST at least) which means two things for me: Schiit's dropping the new DAC and pay day! The latter is important cause it means that I could actually afford getting the former!


----------



## BournePerfect

Thanks rsgladwin85.
   
  -Daniel


----------



## Sorensiim

It's 8:20 AM here in rainy Denmark...


----------



## RebelScum

ITS UP
   
  http://schiit.com/cart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=0&products_id=7
   
 BIFROST  FULLY UPGRADABLE DAC | 24/192 BITPERFECT
 USB 2.0 AND SPDIF | 32 BIT WITH DISCRETE ANALOG  Starting at: $349.00  (without USB),  $449 with USB   
*Specifications*
  Inputs: Coaxial SPDIF, Optical SPDIF, USB (optional)
 Input Capability: up to 24/192 for all inputs
 Input Receiver, SPDIF: Crystal Semiconductor CS8416
 Input Receiver, USB: C-Media CM6631
  D/A Conversion IC: AKM4399
 Analog Summing, Filtering: Fully Discrete, DC Coupled
  Output: Dual RCA (single-ended)
 Output Impedance: 75 ohms
  Frequency Response, Analog Summing Stage: 2Hz-100KHz, -1dB (actual frequency response limited by sample rate)
 Maximum Output: 2.2VRMS
 THD: Less than 0.001%, 20Hz-20KHz
 S/N: Greater than 108dB
  Power supply: 5 stages of regulation, including separate supplies for critical digital and analog sections.
 Upgradability: Separate, modular USB Input Card and DAC/Analog Card are snap-in replaceable.


----------



## Gatepc

Wow! 24/192 usb for only $450? Haha I might have to sell my dac and buy one of these. I'm certainly interested. I like the modular design... man I hate head-fi sometimes... need more money.... If this dac is this great already maybe i'll wait for the higher end dac I can only imagine what the specs on that will be haha.


----------



## Viper2005

Glad I stayed up lol!
  Wow I'm in love with the specs!  AKM4399, that's the chip used in Cary dacs.  Bitperfect = no upsampling  Woot!
  Really happy they made USB optional, I have no use for it and for 100 bucks less!  
  Gonna put in my preorder later today 
  Only downside is Aug 31 shipping


----------



## Jason Stoddard

Okay, so we missed a bit and you found it early. Cool! 
   
  Now the FAQ and press release are up too. You heard it here first!


----------



## Koolpep

Wow, very exciting news.

So I can order the bifrost without USB module and if I need it later just order the USB module? Not the upgrade but the standard? Will you sell it separate?

Can I stack the DAC under my Valhalla/Asgard or does it run hot too 

It's gonna be a long wait I guess until this thing arrives with your international distributors?

thanks a lot!!

K


----------



## rsgladwin85

Haha, Jason, you guy's are awesome.  I wish all businesses were ran by people like you.  I only wish I'd be home for when that package arrives.  My only question is what do I do with my Xonar Essence STX now? lol
   
  Oh by the way, just happened to notice this typo:
   
*"IMPORTANT: Bifrost is in pre-order. We expect to ship beginning August 31, 2001."*


----------



## Anaxilus

Can I get mine w/ a can of black Krylon?


----------



## BournePerfect

I was right. 
   
  -Daniel


----------



## uelover

Cool stuff!
   
  *imagines black bitfrost and lyr*


----------



## Maxvla

Jason,

Any chance of your top end DAC making an appearance at RMAF (prototype or otherwise)?

Thanks


----------



## LiqTenExp

in for one w/o usb


----------



## zhunter

I couldn't find the Bifrost on Product section, nvm, I used the RebelScum's link to make a preoder. WoW Im the 7th haha, nice number, I love 7 and 13


----------



## gh0st0

lucky number #8 w/USB.
   
  I believe that 8 is a lucky number in China... which I'm thinking is a sign that I should also be ordering HE-500. If you try hard enough you can convince yourself of anything


----------



## Dynobot

Okay so who ordered???


----------



## bumblingbooby

At last!


----------



## kongmw

glad it came out! gotta head to work but will read more into it when i get there!


----------



## gh0st0

Hey Jason - any more juice on the upcoming models?


----------



## Brihag

As soon as I have the money for one, a preorder shall be mine!


----------



## Wedge

I ordered one.


----------



## Dynobot

Quote: 





wedge said:


> I ordered one.


 


  Do you have anything to compare it too..???
   
  I'd love to read a good comparo...


----------



## Koolpep

Dynobot, you know that it only ships from 31st August onwards?
   
  Won't see many comparisons before that I guess....


----------



## MrScary

S/N: Greater than 108dB hmmm I will wait until they come out with their higher end Dacs.


----------



## zhunter

You have to wait 2 months later to read our impressions, but after reading new Bifrost's FAQs and product info, I'd say it'd be no-brainer to grab it, this schiit will be great as always ... I love the way they, Jason and people describe their product and support, outstanding! Can't wait to hear more info about upcoming 2 other DACs which would be on hi-end level.
  Quote: 





dynobot said:


> Do you have anything to compare it too..???
> 
> I'd love to read a good comparo...


----------



## Dynobot

Quote: 





koolpep said:


> Dynobot, you know that it only ships from 31st August onwards?
> 
> Won't see many comparisons before that I guess....


 

 8-31
   
  Another 2 whole Months.....Geeeezzzz
   
  I haven't been teased this much since High School.


----------



## Jason Stoddard

Hey all,
   
  Some quick answers:
   
  1. Specs/etc for other DACs? Nope, not much more info there, sorry, except to note they are definitely separate models, rather than improvements on Asgard. Both will be in larger chassis. The top end one I really can't talk about because I was serious about redefining _everything._
   
  2. S/N, etc--Mr.Scary, we're VERY conservative about all of our specs. Don't judge a product by a single quantitative number. Bifrost is going to scare the heck out of people, sound-wise. The others--well, it's a whole new world, isn't it?


----------



## Benjamin6264

And now we all expect the teasers for the other DAC's


----------



## uelover

Quote: 





zhunter said:


> Can't wait to hear more info about upcoming 2 other DACs which would be on hi-end level.


 


 Will they touch the 1k mark? =)


----------



## MrScary

jason stoddard said:


> Hey all,
> 
> Some quick answers:
> 
> ...




Jason,
I understand you underestimate I will wait for the higher end Dac's anyway

Thanks


----------



## Jason Stoddard

If you can swing the top one, it'll be nuts. Simply nuts. 
  
  Quote: 





mrscary said:


> Jason,
> I understand you underestimate I will wait for the higher end Dac's anyway
> 
> Thanks


----------



## MrScary

jason stoddard said:


> If you can swing the top one, it'll be nuts. Simply nuts.



Jason,

I will probably buy the one without USB as I consider USB evil hahaha
I want one for my bedroom setup..


----------



## uelover

Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> If you can swing the top one, it'll be nuts. Simply nuts.


 


  I will want to sign up for that nutty experience, Jason.


----------



## Dynobot

Quote: 





mrscary said:


> Jason,
> 
> I will probably buy the one without USB as I consider USB evil hahaha
> I want one for my bedroom setup..


 

 Same here.
   
  But then if I get the Dac I will need the matching headamp too.  Wonder what my wife will say when she sees a new pile of Schiit on my nightstand?


----------



## caracara08

any info on the DAC chip being used? is it a good one?


----------



## zhunter

You've read the product info yet? http://schiit.com/cart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=0&products_id=7
   
  D/A Conversion IC: AKM4399
 Analog Summing, Filtering: Fully Discrete, DC Coupled
  Quote: 





caracara08 said:


> any info on the DAC chip being used? is it a good one?


----------



## caracara08

Quote: 





zhunter said:


> You've read the product info yet? http://schiit.com/cart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=0&products_id=7
> 
> D/A Conversion IC: AKM4399
> Analog Summing, Filtering: Fully Discrete, DC Coupled


 


  yea but i dont know much about chips so i was wondering how this compares to the newer sabre chips.


----------



## Killbox

Looks great. Is it risky to wait until late July to order?, I mean do I risk getting it later than those ordering it now.  Or is enough stock to ship to everyone.


----------



## tkteo

Hmm the AKM chip is DSD-capable.
   
  http://www.asahi-kasei.co.jp/akm/en/product/ak4399/ak4399.html
   
  I wonder if it will be possible for the Bifrost to also decode 2-channel SACD? What about DVD-Audio?


----------



## kongmw

As much as I love my M-stage, this Schiit is really making me want to get a matching set of DAC and amp. urgghhhhhhh


----------



## obazavil

Hmm...
   
  My laptop only has USB output... not SPIF...
   
  So.. Should I order Bifrost+USB, or just get a laptop soundcard with SPIF?
   
  Recommendations?
   
  @Jason: If I preorder now, the charge when will be applied? when you ship? or since the moment of the preorder? Any discount (let's say.. 50%) for ordering Lyr+Bifrost?  muahaha


----------



## WNBC

Schiit only charges after item shipped, that is if you use Google Checkout option.  If paypal option, you're charged right away.
  If done right, USB sounds really good, at least in my previous experience with PS Audio and Wyred 4 Sound DACs.  No worries, these guys know what they're doing 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  Quote: 





obazavil said:


> Hmm...
> 
> My laptop only has USB output... not SPIF...
> 
> ...


----------



## locust

schiit.com is down.


----------



## Misterrogers

It's up again


----------



## locust

And... ordered.


----------



## Killbox

Trying to order, but Google Checkout tells me that Schiit isn't shipping to Norway.  That isn't the same as the shipping calculator tells me..


----------



## shaunybaby

well i woke up went to work and came back and yep its out for pre-order and the stats of it are just amazzing ive been looking for a new dac and this is just in a league of its own!!
   
  for the price of this dac you really are shaking up the industry!!!
   
  so will there be any deals going on? because i need a need amp and dac and im very interested in the lyr and bitforst combo and how that will be!!!
   
  so jason can you tell us about how well they work together and what the sound is like?


----------



## justie

+1 on the lyr bifrost combo  Im interested in that as well since im looking to upgrade both


----------



## caracara08

im gonan wait for what else they may have up their sleeve.


----------



## Killbox

I'm also a curious about a bit-lyr combo


----------



## LiqTenExp

I'm sure a lot of us have a Lyr (I do) and will definitely be using it with it.  I am sure they used their amps during parts of the testing.  It would be silly not to.


----------



## shaunybaby

There is a press release thread : http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/560639/haute-schiit-bifrost-is-world-s-most-affordable-fully-upgradable-dac
   
  where he has ansewerd the questions of other people asking for deals.
   
  but to me for what schitt is being out they must of made a deal with the devil with how cheap and great all there schiitt is.


----------



## obazavil

It doesn't ship to Mexico neither using Google, only using Paypal... bad about paypal is that, as you said, seems charges immediatly, compared to Google checkout that only when is shipped


----------



## Maxvla

Ordered. No USB for me.

How are people seeing what # they are? My google checkout doesn't show anything. I created an account on Schiit's site after my purchase but can't find a way to link my purchase to the account.

edit- sent them an email to see if they can link my account and my purchase.


----------



## zhunter

I ordered and paid via Paypal, no problem at all.


----------



## Jason Stoddard

Weird, no shipping to Norway or Mexico in Google? Argh, we'll have to take a look at that. It shouldn't be locking those out. What kind of error do you get? Can you send us a screen capture of what you're seeing? Unfortunately, Google Checkout makes testing internationally a PITA.


----------



## Tylerhk

Hi,

 I lived in Hong Kong and Google Checkout said there is no available shipping option also...
   
  I remember it worked before with Lyr....really strange =(


----------



## zhunter

Why wouldn't you guys use the Paypal checkout? Getting charged right away or later is a big deal?


----------



## Misterrogers

zhunter - did you really just ask that?


----------



## obazavil

Quote: 





zhunter said:


> Why wouldn't you guys use the Paypal checkout? Getting charged right away or later is a big deal?


 


  Considering I plan to get bifrost and Lyr we are talking about ~900. I just bought my Nikon D5100+lenses and accesories.... so... for me.. yeah... having 2 months with the charge and no hardware is a deal for me :'(


----------



## JGOelfke

Anyone have any idea on how well the Bifrost would combo with the Valhalla? I'm looking to upgrade both DAC and Amp, and the two separately seem to be a pretty good deal. I'm assuming they would duo great since Schiit doesn't make cheap, bad products...


----------



## ChavaC

And just when I thought I would finally finish my headphone setup they had to go and make it all upgradeable.


----------



## Stitch

Hmm a fully upgradable dac, interesting. I'm asuming they have at least decent synergy i think, being from the same company. Though that doesnt have to say much. Looks like its way too early to tell.


----------



## Jason Stoddard

Hey all,
   
  Sorry for the checkout trouble.
   
  We're working on the international shipping problem with Google Checkout, and hoping to have an upgrade for PayPal that allows us to charge only when shipped--if you don't want to transfer money immediately, just hold off a day or so, and we should have some additional options.
   
  Don't worry--the first run is large, there'll be plenty of Bifrosts to go around!
   
  Jason


----------



## rsgladwin85

Jason, I was curious if you know how soon you might have a USB 3.0 card for the Bifrost?  If it will be soon (next 6 months or so) I might just hold off on the USB 2.0 and wait for it to be released.


----------



## Killbox

Great Jason   
   
   
   
  I'm really tempted to pickup a Lyr as well.  Just got Heed CanAmp for my Q701s, but it doesn't hurt to have both solid state and tube


----------



## obazavil

USB 3.0?
   
  Nah... the new cool thing is Thunderbolt haha 
   
  @Jason
  Thanks for taking care of the International Shipping and the new upgrade for PayPal. I will wait for some days for the options you mentioned


----------



## rsgladwin85

Quote: 





obazavil said:


> USB 3.0?
> 
> Nah... the new cool thing is Thunderbolt haha
> 
> ...


 
   
  Cool.....yes.  But USB has been the "Universal" standard for years now.  I can't see the vast majority moving away from it, thus making USB 3.0, the more logical choice.


----------



## Brihag

I don't think a thunderbolt drive would be very cost effective for Schiit. I imagine they wouldn't sell more then 20-30 of them seeing as apple is the only company putting them stock in their machines right now. Who knows though, perhaps thunderbolt will become more common place. Until then USB is king.


----------



## MrScary

rsgladwin85 said:


> Cool.....yes.  But USB has been the "Universal" standard for years now.  I can't see the vast majority moving away from it, thus making USB 3.0, the more logical choice.




Universal standard for computers not audio equipment. Thats only been in the last few years that people starting using USB


----------



## ETAHL

Quote: 





rsgladwin85 said:


> Jason, I was curious if you know how soon you might have a USB 3.0 card for the Bifrost?  If it will be soon (next 6 months or so) I might just hold off on the USB 2.0 and wait for it to be released.


 


  Why is USB 3 needed?
  USB 2 should have much more bandwidth than is needed for even the highest resolution audio.


----------



## rsgladwin85

Quote: 





mrscary said:


> Universal standard for computers not audio equipment. Thats only been in the last few years that people starting using USB


 

 Granted, but it's much easier to evolve a highly universal standard from one aspect to another then it is one thats "proprietary", such as Thunderbolt.


----------



## HK_sends

Quote:


obazavil said:


> Hmm...
> 
> My laptop only has USB output... not SPIF...
> 
> ...


 
  If you have a reasonably new laptop (five years old or newer), you may actually have a optical SPIDF output after all.  It's imbedded in the headphone-out jack.  They make adapters for optical cables that look like 1/8" headphone plugs.  Plug it in, set your laptop for SPIDF output and you should be good to go.  My three-year old Toshiba Satellite and Asus laptops both have optical SPIDF out.
   
  Hope this helps...
   
  Cheers!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  -HK sends


----------



## rsgladwin85

Quote: 





etahl said:


> Why is USB 3 needed?
> USB 2 should have much more bandwidth than is needed for even the highest resolution audio.


 

  
  First, can having extra bandwidth availability hurt? 
   
  And secondly, this is meant as upgradable, if USB 2.0 would already give you anything you could ever possibly need, why make it upgradable?  You never know what the future can hold, so if USB 3.0 is available, why not use it.


----------



## Anaxilus

I believe Sony is running Thunderbolt via USB connector on it's latest Vaio Z.


----------



## rsgladwin85

Quote: 





anaxilus said:


> I believe Sony is running Thunderbolt via USB connector on it's latest Vaio Z.


 


  Doesn't that kinda defeat the purpose? lol


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





rsgladwin85 said:


> Doesn't that kinda defeat the purpose? lol


 

 I don't know, does it?  To my knowledge Apple just kind of made up their connector.  It's still running Thunderbolt speed and specs.  Sony's is running both w/ USB as well.  Everyone seems to be making it up as they go on the Thunderbolt stuff.


----------



## zhunter

USB 3.0 is more than needed, imo its worthless since many people are still using the 2.0, I know it is backward compatible but it would increase the Bifrost price thanks to expensive 3.0 usb receiving chip.


----------



## obazavil

Well... I also think USB 2.0 must be enough for audio.. for now...
   
  LightPeak (codename for Thunderbolt) was made by Intel alone. That's why besides Apple and Sony, many more companies will start using it.
   
  And my laptop is a EliteBook 8530w that seems that doesn't have any SPDIF...
   
  Long live to Schiit!


----------



## Maxvla

zhunter said:


> Why wouldn't you guys use the Paypal checkout? Getting charged right away or later is a big deal?




After following the JHAudio JH3A thread I'm not ready to lay out money on a preorder.


----------



## Maxvla

rsgladwin85 said:


> First, can having extra bandwidth availability hurt?
> 
> And secondly, this is meant as upgradable, if USB 2.0 would already give you anything you could ever possibly need, why make it upgradable?  You never know what the future can hold, so if USB 3.0 is available, why not use it.




You are missing the point. Audio streams are quite small compared to usb 2 bandwidth. You are making a case for making a 50 foot wide river bed for a 1 foot wide stream just in case.


----------



## BournePerfect

Let's end this USB OT and focus on the Bifrost please! Anyone have any comments on how this dac chip (on paper anyway) compares to the Sabre everyone seems to be using these days?
   
  -Daniel


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





bourneperfect said:


> Let's end this USB OT and focus on the Bifrost please! Anyone have any comments on how this dac chip (on paper anyway) compares to the Sabre everyone seems to be using these days?


 

 To my ears (and some others) the AKM in my DACPort sounds like the Audio GD Sabre implementation.  Go figure.  Not sure which AKM it is though.


----------



## MrScary

bourneperfect said:


> Let's end this USB OT and focus on the Bifrost please! Anyone have any comments on how this dac chip (on paper anyway) compares to the Sabre everyone seems to be using these days?
> 
> -Daniel




sounds like something for Jason to answer but I have the Sabre32 chip in my DAC and its rated at 129db which is quite a bit higher than the 108db the Bifrost is rated at. Im sure the mid level Dac and high end Dac the one Im waiting for will have a higher end DAC


----------



## Dynobot

Quote: 





mrscary said:


> sounds like something for Jason to answer but I have the Sabre32 chip in my DAC and its rated at 129db which is quite a bit higher than the 108db the Bifrost is rated at. Im sure the mid level Dac and high end Dac the one Im waiting for will have a higher end DAC


 


  Wouldn't it be nice if the Schiit High-end Dac was a tubed Sabre Dac..!!!


----------



## Jason Stoddard

Quote: 





mrscary said:


> sounds like something for Jason to answer but I have the Sabre32 chip in my DAC and its rated at 129db which is quite a bit higher than the 108db the Bifrost is rated at. Im sure the mid level Dac and high end Dac the one Im waiting for will have a higher end DAC


 
   
  Chip rating =/= implementation rating. In fact, the EE Minimax is rated 90dB S/N through the tube output and 95 through the SS output, despite the 129dB rating of the chip.
   
  AKM4399 = 123dB rated
   
  Like I said, we're *very* conservative, especially on specs like this that are basically BS and benchracing.
   
  And, I will not say anything more, but the real top-end will be *much* better than Sabre. Think total redefinition, not remixing what everyone else is doing.


----------



## Maxvla

jason stoddard said:


> Chip rating =/= implementation rating.
> 
> AKM4399 = 123dB rated
> 
> ...




Ready for the pre-order on that one Jason


----------



## MrScary

jason stoddard said:


> Chip rating =/= implementation rating. In fact, the EE Minimax is rated 90dB S/N through the tube output and 95 through the SS output, despite the 129dB rating of the chip.
> 
> AKM4399 = 123dB rated
> 
> ...




Awesome


----------



## Wedge

Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> Like I said, we're *very* conservative, especially on specs like this that are basically BS and benchracing.


 

 Not that you care, but I like your style, a lot.


----------



## BournePerfect

When is the high end 'beast' dac hitting? End of the year?
   
  -Daniel


----------



## Maxvla

Within 6 months is what was mentioned. I hope we have a prototype or something at RMAF, though.


----------



## tkteo

I am predicting that the higher end DAC will implement some programmable features using Mr Moffat's expertise.


----------



## Anaxilus

Now where's that Schiit Realizer?  That would be some Schiit right there.


----------



## paconavarro

My wallet WILL SUFFER!!!!


----------



## mamba315

Jason, the way you're talking about the upcoming statement/reference DAC has me really excited. Here's hoping we see a true DAC breakthrough in the "realistic" (sub $5k) price range.


----------



## R-Audiohead

Subscribed--
   
  Been looking for a dedicated DAC to run to a receiver for an external Canton setup... maybe Schitt will provide decent offerings?


----------



## zhunter

Quote: 





bourneperfect said:


> When is the high end 'beast' dac hitting? End of the year?
> 
> -Daniel


 


  I guess so, Jason said that 2 others DACs will be revealed on next 6 months... so probably in the end of the year.


----------



## nsk1

So I assume the next DAC which is balanced will be around $749 without USB and the next one I don't really care, not for my wallet 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





. My question is for Jason, so technically Bifrost is a DAC for all of yours headamps for now, right? Is it match-buddy for Lyr? What I mean is when you will release the next DAC, will there be more amps? I don't wanna pull the plug on Bifrost and the next thing I know is balanced DAC from Schiit for $549 without USB! I think you can help a lot of people who are hesitant. Will it make sense to use Lyr with this new DAC which will be balanced?


----------



## Viper2005

nsk1 said:


> So I assume the next DAC which is balanced will be around $749 without USB and the next one I don't really care, not for my wallet
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I would say go for the Bifrost since the Lyr doesn't have balanced inputs anyways.
However I think it has been hinted that there is a new balanced amp coming down the pipe.


----------



## Lil' Knight

jason stoddard said:


> Chip rating =/= implementation rating. In fact, the EE Minimax is rated 90dB S/N through the tube output and 95 through the SS output, despite the 129dB rating of the chip.
> 
> AKM4399 = 123dB rated
> 
> ...




Heh, can't wait to confirm this...


----------



## MrScary

lil' knight said:


> Heh, can't wait to confirm this...




Yeah I will be buying a BriFrost for my bedroom setup I am eager to compare it to my Modded EE Minimax.
real world listening will tell the story.


----------



## grokit

My guess is that a balanced version of the Bifrost would come in at around $449-$499 (plus $100 more for USB), and the top end unit will be hopefully more like $799. This would be more in the Schiit way of making quality audio affordable.


----------



## MrScary

grokit said:


> My guess is that a balanced version of the Bifrost would come in at around $449-$499 (plus $100 more for USB), and the top end unit will be hopefully more like $799. This would be more in the Schiit way of making quality audio affordable.




Im thinking the top end unit will be more in the 800's for the full blown system IMHO and even at that price it will be a steal


----------



## nsk1

$500 balanced? Not possible, you are asking too much. I mean if it would be true, so who would buy Bifrost? No one.


----------



## maverickronin

Quote:


nsk1 said:


> $500 balanced? Not possible, you are asking too much. I mean if it would be true, so who would buy Bifrost? No one.


 

 Someone who need the USB more than the balanced...


----------



## Yuceka

I wonder when will the other high end DACs releases be and their price range. Jason?


----------



## Maxvla

nsk1 said:


> $500 balanced? Not possible, you are asking too much. I mean if it would be true, so who would buy Bifrost? No one.




A Dacmagic is balanced and only $425. It is only 24/96 on spdif inputs but still I can see a balanced spdif Schiit Dac coming in around the same mark or slightly higher.


----------



## Jason Stoddard

Hey all,
   
  An update, and a couple of comments:
   
  1. We should have a solution for Google Checkout not shipping internationally soon--which is probably going to be moving to a more advanced PayPal integration that allows deferred billing. If that happens, I'll contact all our PayPal orders and offer them the option to switch to bill only when we ship. That'll involve a refund and placing a new order. Sorry for the pain.
   
  2. Balanced DAC and "Ultimate" DAC prices haven't been set yet, but balanced will be significantly more than Bifrost--50%ish is realistic. Ultimate will probably be at the very top end of 3 figures to low four figures. Remember, that's a redefinition piece, unlike anything on the market. You will literally be getting technology that isn't available anywhere else--not for $5K, not for $10K. 
   
  3. For balanced amps, how many of you guys need dual 3-pin connectors, instead of a single 4-pin XLR? How about single-ended out on a balanced amp?
   
  All the best,
  Jason


----------



## MrScary

jason stoddard said:


> Hey all,
> 
> An update, and a couple of comments:
> 
> ...




I will suffer with my Minimax and Bifrost until the Ultimate comes out I figured it would be close to 1000 which is a steal. Cant wait


----------



## Yikes

Before Jason chimed in with some very rough estimates on prices for the upmarket DACs I was thinking $550-$600 for the Balanced (USB of course will add $100) and for the reference DAC I'm betting it will be in the $1100-$1200 range. Parts they is expensive.


----------



## tkteo

Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> 3. For balanced amps, how many of you guys need dual 3-pin connectors, instead of a single 4-pin XLR? How about single-ended out on a balanced amp?


 
  Uh, the next two DACs will feature at least one pair of RCA outputs so I can connect the DAC to the Asgard/Valhalla/Lyr, I hope?


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





nsk1 said:


> $500 balanced? Not possible, you are asking too much. I mean if it would be true, so who would buy Bifrost? No one.


 
   
  Quote: 





maxvla said:


> A Dacmagic is balanced and only $425. It is only 24/96 on spdif inputs but still I can see a balanced spdif Schiit Dac coming in around the same mark or slightly higher.


 

 Agreed, it's not unprecedented. My Matrix Mini-i is truly balanced with dual AD1955 architecture (just 16/48 USB but the rest is 24/192), cost just over $300 and is well-regarded at that price. Like the DACMagic it doesn't have the sophisticated clock management that the Bifrost has, but for less money it is balanced, and it does have USB.
   
   
  Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> Hey all,
> 
> 3. For balanced amps, how many of you guys need dual 3-pin connectors, instead of a single 4-pin XLR? How about single-ended out on a balanced amp?


 

 Definitely need dual 3-pin, as a standard the single 4-pin is for headphones not components.
   
   
  Quote: 





tkteo said:


> Uh, the next two DACs will feature at least one pair of RCA outputs so I can connect the DAC to the Asgard/Valhalla/Lyr, I hope?


 

 It's hard to find a balanced DAC without single-ended (RCA) outputs as well so I would imagine so.


----------



## Caphead78

Quote: 





grokit said:


> Definitely need dual 3-pin, as a standard the single 4-pin is for headphones not components.


 

 I think he was talking about the output of the balanced headamp here, not DAC, and IMO 4 pin would be best. There is no real standard since stock headphones are all SE and the 4 pin connector is much more convenient. 
   
  As far as SE goes I think it would be very nice to have, but not strictly necessary. I think it would greatly enhance the appeal among people who had a lot of headphones and couldnt afford to recable/reterminate them all. It would also appeal to people who have headphones they use in both portable and home settings, and can't handle the bulk of a XLR->3.5mm adapter on the go.


----------



## Kremer930

I havent thought too much about what I want on the high end DAC and amp as I know that they will be designed to work together. I would like to be able to run the DAC converted analogue out to my speaker amp as well as my Schiit headphone amp. 

I would also like to be able to accept at least a second digital in so that my cd player can also send direct to the Schiit DAC. 

Only my headphone rig will be balanced. 

Hmm. Looks like I may need to get a balanced extension for my HE6.


----------



## olor1n

4 pin xlr and single ended output on the amp please Jason. I take it this new amp can co-exist with the Lyr, rather than being the next tier? Will it be solid state?

Will we see the balanced dac and amp this year?


----------



## MrScary

olor1n said:


> 4 pin xlr and single ended output on the amp please Jason. I take it this new amp can co-exist with the Lyr, rather than being the next tier? Will it be solid state?
> 
> Will we see the balanced dac and amp this year?




I doubt it will be solid state tubes are the way to go.. to tailor your sound


----------



## LiqTenExp

Dual 3 Pin balanced out and SE out please, that's the best way to be most compliant and adding the SE RCA output is a no brainer except for space on the case.  
   
  Would your SE output be a tap off of the + and gnd of the balanced channel or a completely separate analog section?


----------



## olor1n

Quote: 





mrscary said:


> I doubt it will be solid state tubes are the way to go.. to tailor your sound


 


  I doubt Schiit would cannabalise the Lyr so soon with a perceived upgrade. Balanced solid state would differentiate the new amp and may be justifiable to those who've just invested in the Lyr. I don't really have a preference at this stage, but I suspect Schiit are too sensible to flood the market.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





caphead78 said:


> I think he was talking about the output of the balanced headamp here, not DAC, and IMO 4 pin would be best. There is no real standard since stock headphones are all SE and the 4 pin connector is much more convenient.


 
   
  Gotcha, I thought he was talking about the new balanced DAC's outputs that would feed a balanced amp. I would be okay with just 4-pin and SE for headphones but it's real nice to have them all (4-pin, dual 3-pin, TRS) so re-terminations and adapters aren't necessary.


----------



## 00lunar

Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> Hey all,
> 
> An update, and a couple of comments:
> 
> ...


 

 Well, if someone has balanced amp (like Adio-gd Phoenix  i.e.), I think, dual 3-pn is a must have, or am I wrong?


----------



## Maxvla

olor1n said:


> I doubt Schiit would cannabalise the Lyr so soon with a perceived upgrade. Balanced solid state would differentiate the new amp and may be justifiable to those who've just invested in the Lyr. I don't really have a preference at this stage, but I suspect Schiit are too sensible to flood the market.




Who's to say the balanced amp would be nearly as powerful as the Lyr is, or even tuned with the same impedance goals in mind? The Lyr was a purpose built HE-6 and LCD-2 driver that just happens to work with other headphones. The next amp might return to more mainstream needs, instead of the HE-6 nuclear reactor type power demands.


----------



## Maxvla

And Jason,

If we're early enough in the planning stages for the top end DAC I would love to see 2 sets of RCA outputs that are selectable with a button on the face. I use a speaker and headphone rig off of my DAC and it gets really old switching cables back and forth every time I want to use the other output method. I would imagine many people would use a top end DAC as their primary DAC for all music listening regardless of output method just like I am.

Thanks!

Chris


----------



## LiqTenExp

Maxvla,
   
  I use something a little fancier than this on my balanced dacs that have balanced and SE outpout.  This way I have 2 outputs available at all times and no cable switching, one goes to my headphone amp and one goes to my speaker amp.
   
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/410689-REG/Lynx_Studio_Technology_CBL_XF2RM18_RCA_Male_to_XLR.html


----------



## MrScary

olor1n said:


> I doubt Schiit would cannabalise the Lyr so soon with a perceived upgrade. Balanced solid state would differentiate the new amp and may be justifiable to those who've just invested in the Lyr. I don't really have a preference at this stage, but I suspect Schiit are too sensible to flood the market.




I will bet 100.00 it will be a tube amp.


----------



## Lil' Knight

jason stoddard said:


> Hey all,
> 
> An update, and a couple of comments:
> 
> ...




More and more curious here  Does it even have I2S input?

Definitely 4-pin XLR out on the balanced amp. Dual 3-pin XLRs is a huge mistake in the past and shouldn't be repeated.


----------



## LiqTenExp

Quote: 





lil' knight said:


> More and more curious here
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


  I agree but there is too much out there that won't comply with single 4 pin output.  It needs to be 3 pin.  Maybe both but not just 4 pin.


----------



## olor1n

Quote: 





maxvla said:


> Who's to say the balanced amp would be nearly as powerful as the Lyr is, or even tuned with the same impedance goals in mind? The Lyr was a purpose built HE-6 and LCD-2 driver that just happens to work with other headphones. The next amp might return to more mainstream needs, instead of the HE-6 nuclear reactor type power demands.


 


  Fair point, and certainly a likely scenario. Like I said, I can't see Schiit cannabalising the Lyr so soon. I'm really intrigued by these balanced components. It makes resisting the impulse purchase of the Bifrost much easier.


----------



## Jason Stoddard

Hey all,
   
  Thanks for the input!  
   
  To clarify, yeah, we're looking at input about the headphone outputs of a hypothetical balanced amp (the fact we're asking this is a clue how early we are in development.) We'd love to leave the dual 3-pin arrangement in the dust, if we can. But if we have to have them, well, there you go.
   
  As far as this cannibalizing the Lyr--nope. Like I said, I'm a fan of balanced, but only balanced done right. Far too many "balanced" amps aren't really balanced, and use things like balanced-to-single-ended conversion, then run through a 2-gang pot, before going to the balanced output stage. Or they're a single-ended amp with a 4-pin connector. Or they're some awful quasi-bridge thing like you'd see in 1970s stereo amps. 
   
  Balanced done right is costly--it requires a quad pot (which is not even listed in the Alps catalog anymore, but if you want to buy 1200+ of them, yeah, you can sweet-talk them into it) and real balanced circuitry from input to output. It also requires twice the current (at half the voltage) of a single-ended amp. And if you start getting into, say, circlotron output stages, you're talking about a complex power supply. I guess what I'm trying to say is, well, hell, balanced ain't gonna be cheap. 
   
  To bring this more on the DAC topic, the middle (balanced) DAC will be a lot more than a balanced Bifrost, and it'll have a couple of new tricks that I guarantee you haven't seen before on other DACs on the market. So comparing it to Chinese-made, non-upgradable, 16/48 USB-input stuff just ain't fair.


----------



## olor1n

Thanks for elaborating Jason. Your engagement in this community is greatly appreciated and I suspect your company will continue to garner support with your refreshing approach. Kudos.


----------



## blankdisc

this is what i have been waiting for.  thanks!
  take your time, and surprise us. you guys are certainly very good at that. 
  time to start saving again...
  Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> To bring this more on the DAC topic, the middle (balanced) DAC will be a lot more than a balanced Bifrost, and it'll have a couple of new tricks that I guarantee you haven't seen before on other DACs on the market.


----------



## Lil' Knight

Sounds great. There are not many balanced tube amps on the market, would be nice if you can come up with a new option.

I thought the 4-gang ALPS pots are still floating around on the web, not sure about the availability for big quantity though.


----------



## Maxvla

liqtenexp said:


> Maxvla,
> 
> I use something a little fancier than this on my balanced dacs that have balanced and SE outpout.  This way I have 2 outputs available at all times and no cable switching, one goes to my headphone amp and one goes to my speaker amp.
> 
> http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/410689-REG/Lynx_Studio_Technology_CBL_XF2RM18_RCA_Male_to_XLR.html




Good suggestion, but my speaker amp is always on since it is a vintage amp and has no remote. I'd have to turn it off in order to listen to my headphones, which is just the same as swapping wires. My dac and headphone amp, however are within reach of my recliner.


----------



## Maxvla

liqtenexp said:


> I agree but there is too much out there that won't comply with single 4 pin output.  It needs to be 3 pin.  Maybe both but not just 4 pin.




As much as it sucks for the people with 2x3pin stuff, it's really beyond the time to keep carrying this poor Headroom choice forward. They can always get their gear reterminated or recabled for 4 pin. Once everything is 4 pin, everyone is happy.


----------



## Maxvla

olor1n said:


> Thanks for elaborating Jason. Your engagement in this community is greatly appreciated and I suspect your company will continue to garner support with your refreshing approach. Kudos.




Absolutely agree! I'd have purchased an amp from Schiit for my IEMs if there was one available that could guarantee black background on very low impedance cans. I really like their style (both as a business, and artistically with their gear's looks) and hope to end up with multiple pieces of Schiit.  It's a bright future for Jason and company and I look forward to what their entire lineup will look like when they have matured. Yesterday amps, today DACs.. tomorrow.. ??


----------



## TakashiMiike

Bah, you guys always give me an itch in my wallet, I've been looking for a dac *insert obligatory schiit joke here*


----------



## tkteo

Quote:  





> Absolutely agree! I'd have purchased an amp from Schiit for my IEMs if there was one available that could guarantee black background on very low impedance cans.


 

 What about the Asgard? By the way I use an impedance adapter with my low impedance headphones when plugging into the Lyr.


----------



## Maxvla

I asked at the time and Jason politely said he could not guarantee it with the Asgard. I was impressed with his honesty and won me right there as a future customer. I just had to find something to buy (Bifrost, and eventual top DAC, the Quadfrost? ).


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *grokit* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Agreed, it's not unprecedented. My Matrix Mini-i is truly balanced with dual AD1955 architecture (just 16/48 USB but the rest is 24/192), cost just over $300 and is well-regarded at that price. Like the DACMagic it doesn't have the sophisticated clock management that the Bifrost has, but for less money it is balanced, and it does have USB.


 

  Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> To bring this more on the DAC topic, the middle (balanced) DAC will be a lot more than a balanced Bifrost, and it'll have a couple of new tricks that I guarantee you haven't seen before on other DACs on the market. So comparing it to Chinese-made, non-upgradable, 16/48 USB-input stuff just ain't fair.


 

  
  I was hoping that I qualified that comparison enough. I really like the work that you guys have put into the Bifrost with the discrete word clocks, that's very impressive. And I think that the overall Schiit build quality with the characteristic chassis and the upgradability is also a winner. I also think that you guys nailed the USB, making it a SOTA option rather that a stock compromise. And it's pretty cool that with a Mac at least we don't need a software driver for 24/192 asynch.
   
  I was just pointing out that if the difference was just that it was balanced that shouldn't make it cost a whole lot more, but now we have new tricks... you've really whetted my appetite. Will this middle balanced unit be another "DAC only" component, or will you be building in things like a headamp and/or a tubed analog output stage?
   
  Personally I would prefer that you continue to leave the headamp out of it, and save the tube output stage for your TOTL model. It would also be great it this balanced middle unit had the same kind of footprint/chassis as the Bifrost, can you tell us any more details?


----------



## Lil' Knight

If the ultimate DAC is just as good (or even better) as this thing, I'll be damn happy


----------



## Maxvla

What is 'this thing'?


----------



## Lil' Knight

The discontinued Sonic Frontiers Processor 3, priced $6,999 back in 1998. By far the best sounding DAC I've heard. Not terribly modern in terms of specs but when fed by a good transport, nothing could touch its musical sound to my ears. To be fair, none of the DAC's I compared exceeded $5,000 mark though. Just love its balanced tube output stage  Have been seeking for it for a long time but still no luck. Really, really hope Schiit would consider something like this.


----------



## Butler

If it stacks on their solid state amp I may be seriously considering this. Hopefully it has USB.


----------



## Yikes

Guarantee that it costs much more to do a fully Discrete Balanced Output than an IC Op-amp based balanced output. The Bifrost is tempting, but I currently have  two < $1000 DAC's for headphone and secondary systems so not really in the market for a budget DAC. Once the Statement DAC comes out I may have to try it to see how it compares to much more expensive DAC's.
  Quote: 





grokit said:


> Agreed, it's not unprecedented. My Matrix Mini-i is truly balanced with dual AD1955 architecture (just 16/48 USB but the rest is 24/192), cost just over $300 and is well-regarded at that price. Like the DACMagic it doesn't have the sophisticated clock management that the Bifrost has, but for less money it is balanced, and it does have USB.


----------



## K3cT

Quote: 





lil' knight said:


> The discontinued Sonic Frontiers Processor 3, priced $6,999 back in 1998. By far the best sounding DAC I've heard. Not terribly modern in terms of specs but when fed by a good transport, nothing could touch its musical sound to my ears. To be fair, none of the DAC's I compared exceeded $5,000 mark though. Just love its balanced tube output stage
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


  Those old DACs are really bad-ass.


----------



## MrScary

k3ct said:


> Those old DACs are really bad-ass.




Well it was tube based its going to have a musical sound. But at the cost of S/N ratio etc. Amps are more important than the DAC to be tube based.


----------



## Kremer930

Hasn't Jason already said that his dacs will not have tubes? I agree with Scary that tubes in the amp make a bigger difference.


----------



## Killbox

Jason:  Have you guys considered offering a "value-pack", bifrost + lyr combo. Reduced price when buying both?


----------



## Kremer930

Jason and Schiit go one better than the combo value pack.  They sell awesome gear at great prices all the time.  And you only have to buy one component at a time.  I dont think that anyone that has bought a Schiit product would not back its value proposition 100%.  
   
  I have to almost pinch myself at how much I love my Lyr and rolling tubes through it.  I would still buy it at double the price.
   

  
  Quote: 





killbox said:


> Jason:  Have you guys considered offering a "value-pack", bifrost + lyr combo. Reduced price when buying both?


----------



## Balazska26

Jason,
  On the non-USB version of Bifrost there will be only two LED-s on the front side of the DAC?
  I assume that those three symbols stand for optical, coaxial and USB input.
  And the other, can we have a picture of the input section of the Bifrost? A schematical drawing would be nice don't need any photos


----------



## zhunter

Quote: 





killbox said:


> Jason:  Have you guys considered offering a "value-pack", bifrost + lyr combo. Reduced price when buying both?


 

 He already said about it on some previous posts if you haven't noticed yet. Consider its spec, and built materials, their schiits are worth more than listing prices imho.


----------



## LiqTenExp

What I really want to know is where are the Schiit Shirts and Schiity hats?
   
  That would be a good toss in for someone who spends around 1k plus.  Also for the rest of us who just plain want some schiit.


----------



## livewire

So the kimono hasnt come all the way off. No backside?
  I wanna see some tail. Some guts would be nice as well....


----------



## MrScary

liqtenexp said:


> What I really want to know is where are the Schiit Shirts and Schiity hats?
> 
> That would be a good toss in for someone who spends around 1k plus.  Also for the rest of us who just plain want some schiit.




hahahah good point Jason where is the Schiit?


----------



## BournePerfect

The highest-end dac isn't supposed to be balanced, is it? I hope not...
   
  -Daniel


----------



## USAudio

Quote: 





bourneperfect said:


> The highest-end dac isn't supposed to be balanced, is it? I hope not...
> 
> -Daniel


 
  I would suspect the top of the line DAC would have both single-ended and balanced outputs.


----------



## MrScary

bourneperfect said:


> The highest-end dac isn't supposed to be balanced, is it? I hope not...
> 
> -Daniel




of course it will be


----------



## Dynobot

Why no shots of the internals or the business end of the new Bifrost?
   
  As soon as someone buys one they will be posting inside shots, rear etc. anyways so no need to keep it a secret.


----------



## Jason Stoddard

Quote: 





dynobot said:


> Why no shots of the internals or the business end of the new Bifrost?
> 
> As soon as someone buys one they will be posting inside shots, rear etc. anyways so no need to keep it a secret.


 

 No grand conspiracy here--we just don't want to post pix of ugly green-board protos. When the final red boards are here, you bet there will be pix, as we always supply to everyone who's interested.
   
  Back shot? Those aren't shots--those are renderings. We didn't do a back rendering. But if you close your eyes and imagine a black back panel with one coax, one tos, one USB, and one set of RCA outputs, together with a power switch and an IEC inlet, there you go. Nothing special.
   
  And a couple other answers:
   
  1. Top-end DAC will have balanced and single-ended outputs. 
   
  2.Shirts, yep, we have to do that.
   
  3. All Bifrosts will have 3 LEDs on the front, but if you don't get USB, it'll skip that input.
   
  Hope this helps!


----------



## WobblyGoblin

no machine gun port?!
   
  do not want.
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
  (actually, that's a lie, I'm saving up my $ as my bank account's a little lower than I'd like before spending money on new headphones+amp+dac right now  )


----------



## rsgladwin85

I can see the shirts now........
   
   
  :FRONT:
  My house is full of
        SCHIIT
   
  BACK:
  (SCHIIT LOGO)
  SCHIIT AUDIO
  maybe the website url


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





rsgladwin85 said:


> I can see the shirts now........
> 
> 
> :FRONT:
> ...


 

 Fixed.


----------



## bumblingbooby

A Head-Fi'ers thirst for knowledge about a new release can never be quenched. Thanks for trying anyway Jason. I'm looking for a new DAC, however, the criticism that I often see of them including the newer models utilising Delta chips, is a tendency to be extremely detailed but at the expense of "musicality".
   
  Terms such as digital "sheen" or "glare", are employed by reviewers to describe the undesirable consequences of the implementation of this technology on musical reproduction. It must be a challenge for audio designers to balance the advantages that the latest technology offers, with designing and manufacturing a high fidelity DAC that is also pleasing to the ear.
   
  Schiit's forthcoming statement DAC promises to be a ground breaking, value for money product, but I was wondering what informs Schiit's approach to DAC design with regard to the reproduction of music?


----------



## leesure

Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> Hey all,
> 
> 3. For balanced amps, how many of you guys need dual 3-pin connectors, instead of a single 4-pin XLR? How about single-ended out on a balanced amp?
> 
> ...


 


  4 pin works for me...and there are relatively inexpensive dual 3-pin to 4-pin adapters out there.  Single ended out would be nice tho...to listen to single ended cans would be great.


----------



## Dynobot

3-4 pin adapter will just kill what ever advantage the 4 pin is likely to have.
   
  Most adapters are made out of the worst materials, plus you just ad another connection [weak] point.


----------



## NobleSix

man i cant wait for this schiit..  its just so friggin sexy


----------



## zhunter

Much sexier when placing beside one of their amps


----------



## jaycalgary

"Much sexier when placing beside one of their amps"
  or stack them up like a pile of Schiit


----------



## Nom de Plume

YES! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> 2.Shirts, yep, we have to do that.


----------



## hooked

Certainly is tempting to replace my HDP with a Bifrost, but not having an analog input is a non-starter for me with my setup, however I do understand the entry level aspect.  Hope the next models have this feature.


----------



## LiqTenExp

Eh, this is a DAC not a preamp.  I don't believe you will find this feature ever.


----------



## Killbox

Is the Paypal feature where you get charged when item is shipped implemented/working?


----------



## rsgladwin85

Quote: 





killbox said:


> Is the Paypal feature where you get charged when item is shipped implemented/working?


 

 I doubt it. I'm sure Jason would have posted to let us know.  Also he said he was going to give those who already purchased via Pay-Pal (a.k.a me) the chance to re-order and not pay until it was shipped.....I haven't gotten any info.


----------



## Jason Stoddard

Hey guys,
   
  Yep, the "authorize only, charge only when shipped" deal is working on PayPal (basically, now we're only using them for processing, but the account and everything is on our site.)
   
  We'll be contacting everyone on Tuesday after the holiday and canceling/re-placing orders--I'll go change the site FAQ about ordering right now.
   
  All the best,
  Jason


----------



## obazavil

Great Jason!
   
  1) You should consider also Amazon Payments... I have used it and is IMHO better than Google Checkout
  2) I see no Google Checkout there (or I didn't in the morning)
  3) No plans for Lyr+Bifrost combo deals?


----------



## ninjikiran

yea for the kind of functionality you desire a switch before the amp would work best.  Since this has no volume control volume control an analog input would be useless.


----------



## Yikes

Hooked, To have an Analog input would either make it a Preamp, Integrated Amp, Headphone Amp, or have it including a ADC (Analog to Digital Converter). More and more Integrated Amps and Headphone Amps are including a DAC (Usually cheaply implemented), but since Schiit labels and is marketing the Bifrost as a DAC, and they market their own range of Headphone Amplifiers it's not likely that you'll see a Jack of all trades (Master of None!) product out of Schiit anytime soon.
   
  The HDP is such a Jack of All Trades product. It's  versatile and surprisingly good considering it's an all in one unit with an ultra cheap external power supply. For higher performance separates are the way to go, at least that has always been my findings. Not to mention the whole Made in the USA thing.


----------



## Jason Stoddard

A couple of quick answers:
   
  1. No combo deals, unless we're allowed to raise the price on the products to the levels they should sell at, then provide a discount from there. Kidding, of course.
  2. No analog inputs on any DAC product, no volume controls, nothing preamplifierish. Too many compromises. 
  3. No Amazon Payments or Google right now--they don't integrate well with the new cart. The current system allows you to pay with a credit card or PayPal account, which'll have to be enough for now. 
   
  And now, off to get stuff ready for watching fireworks tonight!
   
  Best,
  Jason


----------



## Maxvla

Jason,

Time to update this part of your FAQ, since you now have your own DACs:



			
				Schiit.com said:
			
		

> But, wouldn’t a separate D/A converter sound better?
> Sure it would.




Also, now that Google payments are not an option, I assume orders already placed with Google are fine?

Thanks.


----------



## Jason Stoddard

Quote: 





maxvla said:


> Also, now that Google payments are not an option, I assume orders already placed with Google are fine?
> 
> Thanks.


 


  Yep, no problem on that front! We'll try to put it back in the future, but it just doesn't want to do international shipments for the moment.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> 2. No analog inputs on any DAC product, no volume controls, nothing preamplifierish. Too many compromises.


 


 Liking this point 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Have a great fireworks show, happy 4th.


----------



## ocswing

Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> Yep, no problem on that front! We'll try to put it back in the future, but it just doesn't want to do international shipments for the moment.


 


  Thanks for the info even on a holiday. Enjoy the fireworks!


----------



## redmonddad

Personally, you can keep the money I paid via PayPal.  I'd rather keep my place in line (order #5).


----------



## zhunter

I guess they have to refund all people who placed preorders to make the new Paypal checkout system work. Mine is #7 though, but it's alright since Jason said there'll be plenty of schiit to run around, so no worries about reordering.


----------



## rsgladwin85

I'm not all that worried about the ordering.  I'll be requesting once again though for #387 if possible though to try to match my Lyr.  May not be possible, but it can't hurt to ask I suppose.  Although this go around I'll be adding in the USB 2.0 card, that I didn't ask for last time.


----------



## Killbox

Thank You! We Appreciate your Business!
 Your Order Number is: 30
   
   
  They charged it right away using paypal...


----------



## Jason Stoddard

Quote: 





killbox said:


> Thank You! We Appreciate your Business!
> Your Order Number is: 30
> 
> 
> They charged it right away using paypal...


 

 Nope, not charged--authorized only. PayPal *does* authorize the card.


----------



## Hadrien

I am most interested in this part of the Bifrost:
   
   
  Quote: 





> When meaningful upgrades to D/A converters come out, you can snap in a new DAC/Analog Card. The result? A virtually future-proof DAC that won't end up in the dumpster.


 
   
  To simplify it, it sounds like the Bifrost will be "DAC rollable".  If I am understanding this correctly then thank you very much Mr. Stoddard and Mr. Moffat.  An upgrade-able DAC is truly a great thing IMHO.


----------



## hooked

Thanks very much Yikes for the response, still learning the terminology.  Head-Fi has been invaluable in helping me build an amazing sounding system and I really appreciate the members who take the time to respond in an informative way, even on a holiday.


----------



## kwkarth

So, yeah, the fact that the Bifrost is, in effect, obsolescence proof, is a huge thing in the world of DACs.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





hadrien said:


> I am most interested in this part of the Bifrost:
> 
> To simplify it, it sounds like the Bifrost will be "DAC rollable".  If I am understanding this correctly then thank you very much Mr. Stoddard and Mr. Moffat.  An upgrade-able DAC is truly a great thing IMHO.


 
  I'm not too sure we can think of it as a rollable DAC, but more accurately, upgradable when a significant enough new DAC technology becomes available.


----------



## ninjikiran

and even there not all dacs are going to be plug and play but I am sure when they deem an upgrade they will plan it out.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





ninjikiran said:


> and even there not all dacs are going to be plug and play but I am sure when they deem an upgrade they will plan it out.


 

 I could be wrong here, but the way I've read and interpreted what's been published so far, the DACs themselves will not be swappable/socketed, but the entire DAC function will be upgradable as a whole module.


----------



## Wedge

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> I'm not too sure we can think of it as a rollable DAC, but more accurately, upgradable when a significant enough new DAC technology becomes available.


 

 We could be holding our breath for that to happen for a long time.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





wedge said:


> We could be holding our breath for that to happen for a long time.


 
  That would be bad marketing, so I bet it won't play out that way.  They will undoubtedly take advantage of all the extra cost and trouble they went to to allow for DAC upgradability or they wouldn't have gone to all that trouble and expense in the first place.


----------



## ninjikiran

That would be my guess as well.
  Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> I could be wrong here, but the way I've read and interpreted what's been published so far, the DACs themselves will not be swappable/socketed, but the entire DAC function will be upgradable as a whole module.


----------



## Wedge

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> That would be bad marketing, so I bet it won't play out that way.  They will undoubtedly take advantage of all the extra cost and trouble they went to to allow for DAC upgradability or they wouldn't have gone to all that trouble and expense in the first place.


 

 True enough, but *true significant *DAC improvements don't come as often as many DAC manufacturers would want us to believe, that is my take at least.


----------



## Maxvla

I'm curious about this upgradability feature as well. Just what part is upgradable? The signal processing components only? If so does that mean it's similar to changing op-amps in that it will be for flavor or will this allow for significant quality increases? I'm a little confused as to why this feature is in the low end model (at extra expense) when if upgraded would later possibly sound better than the upper models? (of course there could be upgrade modules for the higher end models also). All models will do 24/196 so that isn't a separating factor.. It just seems odd to me.

I also wonder What we're going to do with all the original modules once a new module comes out, heh. Can't exactly sell part of a DAC, especially since it's the part that comes standard and should never wear out.


----------



## maverickronin

Quote:


maxvla said:


> I'm curious about this upgradability feature as well. Just what part is upgradable?


 

 If I'm understanding him right its basically everything but the power supply and the chassis.  All the "important" stuff is probably on a daughterboard that snaps into a backplane to connect to the PS and the ins and outs.


----------



## Hadrien

Yeah "DAC rollable" was probably a bad term to use.  What will be nice is that they could offer different DACs and then if you do not prefer the new sound, you can always put your old DAC board back in.  This seems like a nice feature to me if it becomes available since you would not have to rebuy a DAC with each new leap in technology.


----------



## Nom de Plume

Agreed.
  
  Quote: 





wedge said:


> True enough, but *true significant *DAC improvements don't come as often as many DAC manufacturers would want us to believe, that is my take at least.


----------



## kr0gg

i wonder if their top of the line DAC will have USB as an option and if it will be removable.
  i'm pretty intrigued by their teasers, so i wonder if i will have to sell my DAC only, or my USB/spdif converter too 
  also, does anyone know if it will have RCA or BNC spdif?


----------



## ornitorrinco

I'm particularly interested in the upcoming statement DAC. If it sounds on par or better than a W4S DAC2 for around $1,000, AND is upgradable I will definitely order one.
  Are there any clues regarding the "statement headphone/2 channel product"?


----------



## Hero Kid

I've fully updated the first post with all the information to date.
   
  Now to start collating clues about the two upcoming DACs!


----------



## Maxvla

Time to hire some spies and hackers


----------



## Elanzer

Some of audio-gd's stuff is DAC upgradable and it had good results for the upgrade cost. Before with an an audio-gd unit like the FUN or Sparrow, you only had the choice of the WM8740 or AD1852 DA chips which had a pretty distinct sound difference (IMO - bigger difference than rolling tubes), but later on they released another option for the WM8741. It was only a very small module, about 2x1inch big, but a big impact on sound quality. Contained nothing but the DA chip and a few capacitors, basically you would just screw off the old module, remove the tiny PCB and drop the other one in it's place. I'm betting the Bifrost will be similar to this, and if Audio-gd is anything to go off, the upgrade modules will probably be $50 or less - this really depends on the options of the DA chip though.
   
  AKM4399 on paper appears to best the WM8741, if the implementation is good then it should be an extremely nice DAC for the asking price. Bifrost + Lyr looks like alot of high-end awesomeness for the low price relative to the competition.


----------



## kr0gg

i guess they're making something like this:
  http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/totaldac2/1.html
   
  but then, i guess, being similar to something is opposite to redefining...


----------



## Jason Stoddard

Quote: 





kr0gg said:


> i guess they're making something like this:
> http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/totaldac2/1.html
> 
> but then, i guess, being similar to something is opposite to redefining...


 


  Nope, not like that.


----------



## livewire

All the fresh, new DAC implementations hitting the market lately are impressive but not without their design limitations.
  I am really looking forward to "redefining".


----------



## Audio_newb

Looking forward to the new DACs and while I think it's great that usb is a drop in upgradable option, I was a little surprised/ disappointed to see that the Schiit guys were doing some usb trash talking.  I certainly understand the argument that spdif was designed for audio while the usb spec was not, but having read some counterarguments from pretty well respected designers (Charles Hansen and Daniel Weiss amongst others although Weiss uses firewire) I was a little curious as to the pushback from the Schiit team.  I think many of us have made a pretty substantial shift over to computer audio (especially those of us who are in the market for outboard DACs) and spdif just feels like a legacy connection.  Certainly between usb, firewire, and network/ wireless interfaces, there is a lot to be done with buffered error corrected data streams that at least to my mind would meet or exceed spdif implementations.  Obviously Jason and Mike have a ton of experience in the field so I really am curious to see their take on statement DAC and also curious to hear their take on the future of computer audio.


----------



## MrScary

audio_newb said:


> Looking forward to the new DACs and while I think it's great that usb is a drop in upgradable option, I was a little surprised/ disappointed to see that the Schiit guys were doing some usb trash talking.  I certainly understand the argument that spdif was designed for audio while the usb spec was not, but having read some counterarguments from pretty well respected designers (Charles Hansen and Daniel Weiss amongst others although Weiss uses firewire) I was a little curious as to the pushback from the Schiit team.  I think many of us have made a pretty substantial shift over to computer audio (especially those of us who are in the market for outboard DACs) and spdif just feels like a legacy connection.  Certainly between usb, firewire, and network/ wireless interfaces, there is a lot to be done with buffered error corrected data streams that at least to my mind would meet or exceed spdif implementations.  Obviously Jason and Mike have a ton of experience in the field so I really am curious to see their take on statement DAC and also curious to hear their take on the future of computer audio.




Coax and Toslink are hardly legacy connections. I believe that Schiit has the right to make a statement in their feelings about USB many of us feel the same. I would never use USB. Ive used it in the past and learned. It may be convenient but Coax and then Toslink is the preferred method of connection


----------



## Maxvla

IMO, Toslink and Coaxial are pure connections compared to USB, and hardly legacy. Legacy implies either it's outdated as far as connectivity/software support goes or there are better methods available. Currently Toslink and Coaxial are still able to transfer the data perfectly fine, and USB is not better, though now not really much worse, if at all.


----------



## WNBC

Yup, done right, USB is as good as other inputs and I don't doubt people have had less than great experiences with USB but don't knock it until you try it with the Bifrost.  Or try it with the W4S DAC-2, you'll become a believer too.  I ordered a Bifrost w/out USB because it's going to be used in my bedroom along with a CD player and amp.  Down the road I will definitely throw in the USB module for kicks.  
  
  Quote: 





maxvla said:


> IMO, Toslink and Coaxial are pure connections compared to USB, and hardly legacy. Legacy implies either it's outdated as far as connectivity/software support goes or there are better methods available. Currently Toslink and Coaxial are still able to transfer the data perfectly fine, and* USB is not better, though now not really much worse, if at all.*


----------



## Audio_newb

Before the intent of my post is buried in the language let me first state that it was not meant to start an argument.  They certainly have a right to state their feelings on usb, and considering their wealth of experience I really was just curious to hear what they had to say.  Also, I agree that spdif isn't going anywhere so calling it a legacy connection was perhaps premature.  I do, however, think that with the spread of higher resolution audio spdif will start to be overshadowed by interest in both hdmi in the consumer space as well as higher bandwidth computer connections.


----------



## obazavil

Since the only laptop I have (my wife kills me if I use the macbook) is from the work, SPIF is not existant, so USB is the only option for me 
   
  Glad it support same inputs independently of the source (coaxial, SPDIF, USB)
   
   
  Quote: 





> Obviously Jason and Mike have a ton of experience in the field so I really am curious to see their take on statement DAC and also curious to hear their take on the future of computer audio.


 
   
  Yeah... would be interesting to read them about this topic


----------



## WobblyGoblin

It's not like the USB situation is a big deal. If you want USB, buy it. If not it's cheaper for the rest of us. Everyone's a winner. 
   
  Personally I'll be going without it because every device I own and plan to plug it into has spdif so I'll save myself $100.


----------



## Lil' Knight

jason stoddard said:


> Nope, not like that.




I must say I was really impressed by the TotalDac so really look forward to your TOTL DAC.


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





audio_newb said:


> Before the intent of my post is buried in the language let me first state that it was not meant to start an argument.  They certainly have a right to state their feelings on usb, and considering their wealth of experience I really was just curious to hear what they had to say.  Also, I agree that spdif isn't going anywhere so calling it a legacy connection was perhaps premature.  I do, however, think that with the spread of higher resolution audio spdif will start to be overshadowed by interest in both hdmi in the consumer space as well as higher bandwidth computer connections.


 

 This is a topic I would like fleshed out further as well.  I certainly have my own impressions to go by but certainly would love to get a proper understanding of the intricacies beyond just the basics.  Seems like a question for the Science forum but everything there ends up as being 'inaudible' in more ways than one.
   
  HDMI already has a replacement looming and neither will provide the benefits of SPDIF as they are used professionally.  I don't think any studios are using extended HDMI runs rather than SPDIF.  The needs and interests of the professional and average consumer rarely intersect and pandering to both isn't so easy.


----------



## Jason Stoddard

Hey all,
   
  A couple more answers/clarifications:
   
  1. DAC rollable? Nope. I think we made that clear--we will release new boards when there has been a meaningful change in D/A or USB/input capability. This won't be "12 different D/As in 12 months," it'll be "hey, I don't have to throw my entire DAC away when tech changes."
   
  2. USB vs. SPDIF. I think we've said what we need to say on our site. Our implementation of USB is one of the best, and we've heard all of them (that we can separate from the DAC, that is.) And, in our opinion, they're not up to the level of SPDIF.
   
  Why should you believe us? Unlike other firms, we have no dog in this fight--we don't have a team of engineers spending 50 person-years developing proprietary USB tech, we're not selling an expensive USB solution or trying to license our technology--so we don't really care if you use our USB or not. That's one of the reasons we waited until there was a commercially available solution for USB 2.0--the CMedia CM6631 input receiver. Now, real high-speed async USB doesn't have to be costly, and we can provide great performance on the USB side. For USB, that is. 
   
  And, consider this: when those expensive, embedded USB solutions in other super-expensive DACs have fallen by the wayside for USB 3.0 or Thunderbolt or I2S (or whatever's next), you just swap out a card on your Bifrost, and you're ready for whatever future tech there is.
   
  That's how we see the future of computer audio. We're realistic enough to know we don't set the standards, but you bet we'll be able to respond to whatever comes next--and you won't have to throw your DAC away to take advantage of it.


----------



## Kremer930

Great comments Jason.  At such value for money price points people can test for themselves.  I am confident that your products will over deliver as usual.
   
  Have you made available a review Bifrost as yet?  When the Lyr was released, Moon audio spent so long letting it burn in that regular head-fiers had already provided comments and reviews.  I think I even had my own Lyr for a month before the Moon review hit the print.  As much as I enjoy reading Moon audio reviews, it kind of lost its impact because of the timing.
   
  Plus I am impatient...  and what better way to pass the time waiting for a Schiit statement Dac than to listen to a Bifrost!!


----------



## blankdisc

you meant 6moons, right? 
  yeah, it would be great if we can see some good reviews before the official launch.
  
  Quote: 





kremer930 said:


> ...Moon audio spent so long letting it burn in that regular head-fiers had already provided comments and reviews.  I think I even had my own Lyr for a month before the Moon review hit the print.  As much as I enjoy reading Moon audio reviews...


----------



## kongmw

Quote: 





blankdisc said:


> yeah, it would be great if we can see some good reviews before the official launch.


 


  couldnt agree more


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> Hey all,
> 
> A couple more answers/clarifications:
> 
> ...


 

 I don't suppose there is anything in the works for a firewire interface? It would be a nice option to have


----------



## Yuceka

Ah pleeeaaase no 6moons reviews


----------



## Maxvla

grokit said:


> I don't suppose there is anything in the works for a firewire interface? It would be a nice option to have




People still use firewire? I thought it died out when Apple gave up and started using USB 2.0. I really don't see why Schiit would spend development time on something so few would order.


----------



## Jason Stoddard

Firewire: too small of a market.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> Firewire: too small of a market.


 
   
  Understood, but there's still plenty of pro audio interfaces that use firewire and many believe that when using a USB external HDD for an active music library that the DAC shouldn't be connected to USB as well. I just thought that if it was relatively cheap and easy that it could be an interesting option since the module is swappable.


----------



## WNBC

How come?  I don't do it that way, it's all internal HDD for me but out of curiosity why is it a bad thing.  I've heard of people talking about hearing the drive clicking but that would be an issue for internals too.
  
  Quote: 





grokit said:


> Understood, but there's still plenty of pro audio interfaces that use firewire and many believe that when using a USB external HDD for an active music library that the DAC shouldn't be connected to USB as well. I just thought that if it was relatively cheap and easy that it could be an interesting option since the module is replaceable/swappable.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





wnbc said:


> How come?  I don't do it that way, it's all internal HDD for me but out of curiosity why is it a bad thing.  I've heard of people talking about hearing the drive clicking but that would be an issue for internals too.


 
   
  Internal is better because it's an SATA interface not USB, but it's still inadvisable to have your music stored on the system boot drive no matter what.
   
  In answer to your question, it's because they share the same bus if they are both using USB; the Pure Music website for example advised this:
   
  "*It's best to choose the hard drive(s) after choosing the computer and audio interface.* The reason is that whatever connection "bus" is used by the audio interface, the storage interface should be different for best performance. For example, USB hard drives should be used with a FireWire audio interface, and vice versa. This is to avoid bus contention issues from occurring, because the audio stream is a real-time stream that cannot be interrupted. Theoretically, it is possible to daisy-chain hard drives with audio on a FireWire bus... but this is not advisable."
   
  Also from Wikipedia:
   
  "FireWire interfaces generally outperform similar transfers over USB 2.0 interfaces in real world environments....For example, the FireWire host interface supports memory-mapped devices, allowing high-level protocols to run without loading the host CPU with interrupts and buffer-copy operations.[6] It should also be noted that Firewire features two data busses for each segment of the bus network whereas USB only features one. This means that Firewire can have communication in both directions at the same time, but with USB communication can only occur in one direction at any one time.
  Other differences are that FireWire uses simpler bus networking, provides more power over the chain and more reliable data transfer, and is less taxing on a CPU.[37] USB requires the presence of a bus master, typically a PC, whereas FireWire is a true peer-to-peer network, thus allowing either device to serve as the host or the slave."


----------



## maverickronin

Of course, I'm paranoid enough that I think that the DMA is a giant gaping security hole...


----------



## MrScary

Quote: 





grokit said:


> Internal is better because it's an SATA interface not USB, but it's still inadvisable to have your music stored on the system boot drive no matter what.
> 
> In answer to your question, it's because they share the same bus if they are both using USB; the Pure Music website for example advised this:
> 
> ...


 



 Almost all new puters have SATA II external interfaces and there are many external drives that support both SATA and USB


----------



## grokit

It's called eSATA for external, or eSATAp if you combine it with USB power.
   
_"quite simply, it’s a misnomer"_


----------



## MrScary

mrscary said:


> Almost all new puters have SATA II external interfaces and there are many external drives that support both SATA and USB






grokit said:


> It's called eSATA for external, or eSATAp if you combine it with USB power.
> 
> _"quite simply, it’s a misnomer"_




Whatever firewire is IEEE 1394 and i.LINK.


----------



## WNBC

Cool, thanks for the info, I guess if I do need more memory for music I'll just go for a larger internal drive rather than an external brick.
  
  Quote: 





grokit said:


> Internal is better because it's an SATA interface not USB, but it's still inadvisable to have your music stored on the system boot drive no matter what.
> 
> In answer to your question, it's because they share the same bus if they are both using USB; the Pure Music website for example advised this:
> 
> ...


----------



## grokit

[size=medium] Quote: 





mrscary said:


> Whatever firewire is IEEE 1394 and i.LINK.



[/size]
​
   
  iLink is Sony's brand name like Firewire is Apple's, you are correct that both are referring to the same IEEE 1394 standard; TI calls it Lynx. 1394b is interesting because it is capable of Thunderbolt/USB 3 type of speed.


----------



## MrScary

wnbc said:


> Cool, thanks for the info, I guess if I do need more memory for music I'll just go for a larger internal drive rather than an external brick.




you could get a network NAS thats one of my storage places for music


----------



## helluvapixel

For comparison sake, here's Peach Tree's Dac-it. Some one mentioned galvanic isolation and they have it, and you'll see it has USB and the price point looks coincidentally very similar  $449 US.
   
  http://www.pearlaudiovideo.com/blog/peachtree-audio-dacit-dac/


----------



## grokit

The Peachtree is only 24/96 for USB though.


----------



## RebelScum

Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> And, consider this: when those expensive, embedded USB solutions in other super-expensive DACs have fallen by the wayside for USB 3.0 or Thunderbolt or I2S (or whatever's next), you just swap out a card on your Bifrost, and you're ready for whatever future tech there is.


 


  Unfortunately I have fallen into this trap before, buying a product that was upgradeable ("future-proof") only to discover that when something better came along several years later, either a) the company wasn't around anymore or b) the company has already dropped support for the product.  So an upgrade was never in the works.


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





rebelscum said:


> Unfortunately I have fallen into this trap before, buying a product that was upgradeable ("future-proof") only to discover that when something better came along several years later, either a) the company wasn't around anymore or b) the company has already dropped support for the product.  So an upgrade was never in the works.


 

 Same.  But upgrades aren't the reason I would by the Schiit DAC.  Not in the least.  It's simply a feature others don't even offer at all.  I don't see the alternative as being a better solution.  
   
  Oh, Mitsubishi...you owe me a friggin' HDTV card!  Bums!!!


----------



## Jason Stoddard

Um, a couple more comments:
   
  1. Galvanic isolation? Like I said, of course we have that. I simply thought no competently designed, non-bus-powered device would be without it, so we never mentioned it. It's like saying your new lamp comes with a power cord. Duh.
   
  2. Upgrades may not happen? Are you seriously arguing it's better to spend_ a lot more money _on a DAC that's designed to be _thrown away_ when tech changes, versus getting one that offers insane price/capability/value even without considering upgradability? It's not like Bifrost requires a second mortgage.
   
  And, uh, upgrades _will_ happen.


----------



## Benjamin6264

Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> Um, a couple more comments:
> 
> 1. Galvanic isolation? Like I said, of course we have that. I simply thought no competently designed, non-bus-powered device would be without it, so we never mentioned it. It's like saying your new lamp comes with a power cord. Duh.
> 
> 2. Upgrades may not happen? Are you seriously arguing it's better to spend_ a lot more money _on a DAC that's designed to be _thrown away_ when tech changes, versus getting one that offers insane price/capability/value even without considering upgradability? It's not like Bifrost requires a second mortgage or something.


 

 GAAAH, the more I hear about it, the more I want one


----------



## Maxvla

benjamin6264 said:


> GAAAH, the more I hear about it, the more I want one




15 day trial period, no reason not to.


----------



## MarioImpemba

The FAQ for Bifrost states:
   
   
  Quote: 





> If you have a Windows desktop, most decent sound cards and many motherboards have SPDIF coax or optical.


 
   
  If you search on this site there are claims that these more pedestrian SPDIF outputs are inferior to more purposeful sound-cards SPDIF outputs; but the above Schiit quote leads me to believe that even a motherboard or standard sound-card SPDIF is a better carrier than USB, correct?
   
  All I've read on the difference between various USB and SPDIF sources has to do with clocking and jitter. Aren't these differences a moot point with asynch?
   
  Basically, I just want to confirm that whatever SPDIF my Dell desktop has will be a better (and cheaper!) link to the Bifrost.
   
  Or is a USB->SPDIF a better option?
   
  Thanks headfi


----------



## Benjamin6264

Quote: 





maxvla said:


> 15 day trial period, no reason not to.


 


  Me living in Canada makes things a bit harder. Plus, it might be a better choice for me to wait for the 2 other DAC's.


----------



## Jason Stoddard

Ha, I see we've been accused of "not knowing USB" by some USB mafia on another site, because, you know, "them old guys with their SPDIF canes don't understand the future."
   
  So, to clear things up, here's a version of an email I just sent.
   
   
*Experience with USB?*
 Not enough experience with USB? Ha! Our DAC would have been out a year ago if it wasn't for USB. We have investigated all the commercially available USB interfaces, including some very expensive licensed ones, and arrived at design that is one of the best, if not _the_ best, out there. I mean, it's USB 2.0, not antique 1.1, it's async, it has separate crystal-controlled clocks for 44.1 and 48K multiples, it has galvanic isolation.
   
  We put a ton of engineering time into USB. We know it's necessary for many customers. We simply aren't going to portray it as anything it isn't. We have no reason to. So if you buy our USB solution, you know you're getting one that's solidly engineered and done to the highest level we can possibly achieve today. It's not slapped-together or afterthought. And it sounds really nice. For USB.
   
  And--unlike everyone else at or near this price point--it's upgradable, for when the technology changes. And yeah, you can speculate about whether or not upgrades will come, but, you know what? One thing is for sure: technology _will _change, and when it changes, you _will_ throw away a non-upgradable DAC--or accept less than the state of the art performance.
   
*SPDIF from computers is inferior?*
 And I'm unsure where you get this idea that SPDIF from computers is "inferior." Sure, there's variation in SPDIF output quality, but we're getting jitter rates from Apple TOSLINK and good PC soundcard coax that are not significantly different than what we get from a good transport.
   
  So--I gotta ask: Maybe it's not a case of these "old dogs" not knowing USB, but maybe it's a case of these newfangled designers not knowing how to properly implement a SPDIF receiver? There are so many tricks beyond the datasheet implementation . . . and we've been doing them since the 80s. 
   
  But we'll see. When Bifrost ships, judge for yourself.


----------



## pasgod

Hello Jason,
   
  if a very good SPDIF from a transport or a sound card is 100%, how do you rate your USB implementation and a toslink from a computer ?
   
  Thanks.


----------



## leesure

Looking forward to hearing a Bifrost Jason.


----------



## MrScary

jason stoddard said:


> Ha, I see we've been accused of "not knowing USB" by some USB mafia on another site, because, you know, "them old guys with their SPDIF canes don't understand the future."
> 
> So, to clear things up, here's a version of an email I just sent.
> 
> ...




Good words Jason so true


----------



## MrScary

I bought a Bifrost over the new Eastern Electric MKII due to Eastern Electric still using opamps in their DAC at 1050.00 dollars the BiFrost is a real deal


----------



## nsk1

Jason, one more question. There's no a lot of informations about this AKM4399 and we only know that it it's used in Cary Xciter and some Esoteric thing, but I bet not a lot of people had privilege to listen this units. Why did you choose it and what's the sound signature? Diy you compare against something? I don't like Wolfson, but I have to ask this question - why not wolfson since everybody is using it!


----------



## leesure

Quote: 





nsk1 said:


> Jason, one more question. There's no a lot of informations about this AKM4399 and we only know that it it's used in Cary Xciter and some Esoteric thing, but I bet not a lot of people had privilege to listen this units. Why did you choose it and what's the sound signature? Diy you compare against something? I don't like Wolfson, but I have to ask this question - why not wolfson since everybody is using it!


 


  Hmmm...maybe because everybody's using it.


----------



## Jason Stoddard

One of the huge advantages of an upgradable DAC is that it's easy to build up a ton of 2.5 x 4" DAC/Analog boards and swap them in and out. Yep, we've tried all the major chipsets. In this implementation, AKM gave the best sonic performance and some of the best measured performance.


----------



## kwkarth

Just another data point...
  The current DAC I have sounds really great to my ears, even using the USB interface.  I have a bunch of MAC gear and they have TOSLINK out, as well as USB.  The one exception is my MacBook Air.  It has no TOSLINK output, just USB.  I did an experiment using many high bit rate FLAC files from HDTracks.  Playback sounds awesome through USB on all my Macs, but it sounds even BETTER using TOSLINK!  This is just my experience, your mileage may vary.


----------



## MrScary

kwkarth said:


> Just another data point...
> The current DAC I have sounds really great to my ears, even using the USB interface.  I have a bunch of MAC gear and they have TOSLINK out, as well as USB.  The one exception is my MacBook Air.  It has no TOSLINK output, just USB.  I did an experiment using many high bit rate FLAC files from HDTracks.  Playback sounds awesome through USB on all my Macs, but it sounds even BETTER using TOSLINK!  This is just my experience, your mileage may vary.




Wow Kwkarth you are the first mac user I have heard say that about toslink most whine saying that USB sounds better because of the supposed high jitter rate of the Mac toslink implementation nice to hear...


----------



## leesure

FWIW, I've been saying for a while that my Mac TOSLINK sounds better than the USB from the same.  
   
  Just another data point.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





mrscary said:


> Wow Kwkarth you are the first mac user I have heard say that about toslink most whine saying that USB sounds better because of the supposed high jitter rate of the Mac toslink implementation nice to hear...


 
  Yes, and that is exactly what I expected to hear...  Better sound from USB than from the famous crappy Apple Toslink, but much to my suprise and chagrin, the Toslink sounded better, which was not what I was expecting.  The difference was not overt, but definite and repeatable.  I did this test months ago and repeated it many times over the course of a few weeks because I knew it was contrary to what popular opinion was.


----------



## grokit

For myself it really depends on the individual DAC's capabilities. My old Bel Canto just has toslink/coax inputs, and they sound the same no matter how I convert USB to coax (tried Bravo, V-link, and a simple straight converter). That is because it already has a good internal means of  asynchronously re-clocking the data and using an external spdif converter with its own asynchronous master clock provides no additional benefit. The only improvement I could hear is when I changed from a "high-quality polymer" toslink cable to a glass fiber one, that was definitely a step up and brought the optical up to the same audio quality as the coax input.


----------



## ninjikiran

The weakest link to the spdif output on your computer is usually in the drivers.


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> Just another data point...
> The current DAC I have sounds really great to my ears, even using the USB interface.  I have a bunch of MAC gear and they have TOSLINK out, as well as USB.  The one exception is my MacBook Air.  It has no TOSLINK output, just USB.  I did an experiment using many high bit rate FLAC files from HDTracks.  Playback sounds awesome through USB on all my Macs, but it sounds even BETTER using TOSLINK!  This is just my experience, your mileage may vary.


 

 Agreed.  I know you and I have at least one shared USB DAC experience to reference from.  USB DACs can sound great but the optical solution in my chain kicks things up a notch.  I honestly wasn't expecting the difference that I heard after hearing all the slams against optical.  There must be quite a wide range of optical implementations to have such a varied amount of impressions.  I have yet to hear glass cable and wonder if there would be a difference for better or worse.


----------



## Wedge

Personally I have always preferred SPDIF, because I have really found all the drivers flaky for the USB implementations I've tried so far.  The only real stable one I have is the USB on the PS Audio DL III, but still prefer SPDIF.  I'm not using MAC though cause I'm just one of those uncool PC guys.


----------



## grokit

PC, Mac, or Linux, they all use a MAC address for network access protocols


----------



## uelover

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> Yes, and that is exactly what I expected to hear...  Better sound from USB than from the famous crappy Apple Toslink, but much to my suprise and chagrin, the Toslink sounded better, which was not what I was expecting.  The difference was not overt, but definite and repeatable.  I did this test months ago and repeated it many times over the course of a few weeks because I knew it was contrary to what popular opinion was.


 


 I would agree with you that on most DACs, toslink provides a cleaner and higher definition sound compared to USB audio output on a mac.
   
  Nonetheless, with my previously acquired DI, I came with the conclusion that a good converter could make USB audio sounds better than the toslink output from a mac.
   
  I have some confidence that the USB implementation on Bitfrost will be pretty decent so it will be interesting to see how does it fare between USB and optical input from a Mac =)


----------



## Kremer930

I have done some testing over a month of going back and forward and came to the conclusion that optical out of my mac was better than USB to hiface to coax. The hiface was nicer than straight USB and allowed me to get 24/192 but it still wasn't as nice as 24/96 optical out of my mac. I have high end coax, USB and glass toslink cables just to keep it even. 

If I had never heard toslink then USB would have been at a level that I would have been really happy with. But then again... Being a headfier, we always. chase that last 5% improvement.


----------



## Hero Kid

God I feel ashamed... I only just noticed the DAC is called Bifrost not Bi*t*frost.


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





hero kid said:


> God I feel ashamed... I only just noticed the DAC is called Bifrost not Bi*t*frost.


 

 ****, we were hoping you wouldn't figure it out!  =P


----------



## Hero Kid

Quote: 





anaxilus said:


> ****, we were hoping you wouldn't figure it out!  =P


 
   
  If you look s few posts up at least I wasn't the only one! 
   
  One point that I don't think has been discussed yet by Jason is Linux. Yay or nay?


----------



## Jason Stoddard

Linux? We're not going to provide any technical support, but if your Linux machine is USB Audio 2.0 standard compliant, you should be in the same boat as Mac users--no drivers necessary.


----------



## Hero Kid

Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> [...] same boat as Mac users--no drivers necessary.


 

 That is what I expected but I wasn't sure. Thanks for clearing that up


----------



## bumblingbooby

Jason, what type of transformer is being used in the Bifrost?


----------



## MrScary

bumblingbooby said:


> Jason, what type of transformer is being used in the Bifrost?




One made of legos silly...


----------



## bumblingbooby

Thanks MrScary but isn't anti-USB implementation your area of expertise?


----------



## Butler

Has the form factor been covered yet? Will it perfectly stack under a asgard? I looked in the thread and I may have missed the answer.


----------



## Misterrogers

You can go to schiit.com and get dimensions, etc. Essentially, it's the same form factor as their current amps. From what Jason's said - they'll likely end up with two form factors. The bottom end (Asgard, Valhalla, Lyr, Bifrost) and high end (balanced DAC, uber DAC, uber amp). While it's certainly tempting to stack these components, you may not want to. Designers go through significant effort to put space between transformers and other components. If you think about it, you can negate that effort inadvertently by stacking components. I'm not an EE so I can't say whether the resultant electrical noise/grunge would amount to much - but since we're willing to spend money in pursuit of that additional 5% of audio perfection, I try to give my components at least a foot of space.
   
  Jason, maybe you have a take on this?


----------



## MrScary

misterrogers said:


> You can go to schiit.com and get dimensions, etc. Essentially, it's the same form factor as their current amps. From what Jason's said - they'll likely end up with two form factors. The bottom end (Asgard, Valhalla, Lyr, Bifrost) and high end (balanced DAC, uber DAC, uber amp). While it's certainly tempting to stack these components, you may not want to. Designers go through significant effort to put space between transformers and other components. If you think about it, you can negate that effort inadvertently by stacking components. I'm not an EE so I can't say whether the resultant electrical noise/grunge would amount to much - but since we're willing to spend money in pursuit of that additional 5% of audio perfection, I try to give my components at least a foot of space.
> 
> Jason, maybe you have a take on this?




hahaha a whole foot what do you have like hydrogen flowing through the 1 ft space? j/k


----------



## Misterrogers

No, but I like where you head's at 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I wouldn't even get into the other things I'm careful about in my office area. I'm a software developer, so my work/listening space is a bit extreme when it comes to electrical noise. MacPro, 32 gig memory, 6TB internal HD, 9TB Raid5 enclosures, eSata cards, usb cards, high end video card, two 30in monitors, iPhone, iPad2, blah, blah. Lots and lots of e noise. This is where I live though, so I'm always trying to improve my audio quality in my office.


----------



## MrScary

misterrogers said:


> No, but I like where you head's at
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Makes alot of sense luckily I work from home so I get to make home my office but I understand my main transport is my computer it is liquid cooled raid 10 drives etc..


----------



## MrScary

bumblingbooby said:


> Thanks MrScary but isn't anti-USB implementation your area of expertise?




no not Anti-USB Perfertonotuse-USB I would use it if I was on the road or something but all my laptops have toslink so I probably will never use it. I have a portable rig that is USB


----------



## Misterrogers

Had a feeling MrScary. There's a handful of us that seems to have the luxury/curse of more time to tweak our gear. For me (and you it seems), I have headphones on at least 6 hours a day - listening while I code. Good music/sound makes my long days infinitely more enjoyable.


----------



## MrScary

misterrogers said:


> Had a feeling MrScary. There's a handful of us that seems to have the luxury/curse of more time to tweak our gear. For me (and you it seems), I have headphones on at least 6 hours a day - listening while I code. Good music/sound makes my long days infinitely more enjoyable.




Yes true


----------



## MrScary

mrscary said:


> Yes true only 6 hours though hahaha


----------



## bumblingbooby

Quote: 





mrscary said:


> no not Anti-USB Perfertonotuse-USB I would use it if I was on the road or something but all my laptops have toslink so I probably will never use it. I have a portable rig that is USB


 
   
  Then you've softened your stance to put it mildly. I recall seeing and also quoting your posts (possibly earlier in this very thread) in which, you were disparaging of USB implementation in DACs. 
   
  My interest in the type of transformer being used in the Bifrost, is because it is a component that manufacturers tend to skimp on when attempting to produce Champagne audio on a beer budget. Something has to give and the power supply is usually it.


----------



## wgb113

Wow!  Just found out about all of this today!  I've been waiting to hear what Jason & Mike had in store for us on the DAC side.  The "redefinition" comment about their statement DAC later this year definitely has me on the sideline.  It will give me time to figure out how to work in some sort of volume control into my setup since none of the Schiit DACs will feature one.
   
  My ideal computer-audio setup would be:
   
  Computer-->DAC-->Valhalla or active speakers.
   
  I know the guys @ Schiit refuse to comment on products that are not their own but I'd love to know what different flavors of sources they use when engineering their amps and DACs, similar to the cans they use to help voice their products.
   
  Bill


----------



## MrScary

bumblingbooby said:


> Then you've softened your stance to put it mildly. I recall seeing and also quoting your posts (possibly earlier in this very thread) in which, you were disparaging of USB implementation in DACs.
> 
> My interest in the type of transformer being used in the Bifrost, is because it is a component that manufacturers tend to skimp on when attempting to produce Champagne audio on a beer budget. Something has to give and the power supply is usually it.




I agree with the power supply yeah I'm coming to terms with USB maybe there will be a USB 3.0 384hz implementation.


----------



## prozach1576

I'm sure it's been said, but man, I wish this DAC had more than one set of outputs. The ability to easily toggle between headphones and my Swan desktop speakers is essential for me.


----------



## Maxvla

prozach1576 said:


> I'm sure it's been said, but man, I wish this DAC had more than one set of outputs. The ability to easily toggle between headphones and my Swan desktop speakers is essential for me.




x2 I hope the top DAC has switchable multiple outputs.


----------



## zhunter

As I saw there is a small button on the front beside indicated leds, I supposed it is the switching outputs' one.


----------



## Maxvla

zhunter said:


> As I saw there is a small button on the front beside indicated leds, I supposed it is the switching outputs' one.




Inputs actually on the Bifrost.


----------



## WobblyGoblin

Is this a stupid question or wouldn't this do what you want?

  Not these specific versions perhaps. I know many of you would want the $4000, blessed by Jesus, version


----------



## mp5th

Jason, any chance we can get a module for additional digi input instead of usb?


----------



## FOXY

Which price range dacs the Schiit DAC going to compete with?


----------



## Hero Kid

Quote:


foxy said:


> Which price range dacs the Schiit DAC going to compete with?


 
   
  $350 or $450 for those USB fiends?


----------



## judmarc

Noticed in a photo stream somewhere a picture of Schiit amps burning in.  Wondered if Bifrosts will be fully burned in when shipped or if we can expect that they will need some burn-in at home before they sound their best.


----------



## shaunybaby

Wait you mean that they send there amps off to the customers already burned in?


----------



## Hero Kid

Quote: 





shaunybaby said:


> Wait you mean that they send there amps off to the customers already burned in?


 

 Yep.


----------



## shaunybaby

I don,t want to say your lying but has anyone emailed them on this subject to be sure of such?


----------



## olor1n

Why does it matter? I doubt it'd be unbearable out of the box.


----------



## judmarc

Quote: 





shaunybaby said:


> I don,t want to say your lying but has anyone emailed them on this subject to be sure of such?


 


 Hi, shaunybaby.  As I mentioned above, there's a photostream somewhere (wish I remembered exactly where - if I locate it I'll let you know, or maybe someone else here will recognize it from my description) with captions that was sort of "A Day in the Life of Schiit," showing their offices, Mike and Jason doing designs, their production lead Rina Slayter, etc.  One of the photos was captioned "[Name of Schiit Amp] burning in" or something like that, and showed a couple of rows of amps sitting on shelves.
   
  I haven't e-mailed them to ask if this was an extra special shipment; I assumed it wasn't and that they did the burn-in procedure for pretty much everything they send out.  Anyhow, I've posted the question about Bifrost burn-in here, so if Jason answers "What burn-in?" or something similar then we'll know either I hallucinated the photostream or that *was* a special shipment of amps.


----------



## judmarc

Found the photostream.  At the following link, a little over halfway down the page, photo captioned "Burn in."  http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/schiit/4.html


----------



## ornitorrinco

Hi judmarc, I think the photos you are mentioning belong to this 6moons article.
   
  http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/schiit/4.html
   
  Hope this helps.
   
  Santiago


----------



## Jason Stoddard

Hey all,
   
  Burn-in? Yep, everything's burned in for a day before we ship. This isn't for audio quality, though--this is to catch early failures. Our amps usually improve over the next 50-100 hours of run time beyond our burn-in. Bifrost will probably be similar.
   
  Power supply scrimping? Uh, no. Like I've said before, we don't do wall-warts, we don't do switching power supplies. Bifrost uses a 4X over-specced EI core transformer (the same kind of transformer we use on all of our gear,) feeding 5 stages of regulation, with low-noise regulators in critical sections, and over a dozen conductive polymer aluminum solid electrolytic capacitors--which you typically only find on very, very expensive gear. Bifrost is no joke--it's a serious DAC!


----------



## judmarc

Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> Bifrost is no joke--it's a serious DAC!


 

 I imagine it will be - why I ordered one.  
   
  I've been a happy owner for ~20 years of a Theta Pro Basic (upgraded to a II), and wondered how you and Mike think the sound of the Bifrost might compare.  I'm assuming there's lots more computing speed available now and you folks have got more experience under your belts, but on the other hand there are good reasons that old Theta DAC has made me happy for a couple of decades.


----------



## bumblingbooby

Good to know regarding the transformer Jason. I wouldn't mind it being a joke as I luv to 'ave a laff.


----------



## ZorgDK

I think one thing that would be really cool to have in the statement DAC, would be the ability to put in a data SD card / usb stick with FLAC files and play directly from that. 
  
  Quote: 





judmarc said:


> Found the photostream.  At the following link, a little over halfway down the page, photo captioned "Burn in."  http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/schiit/4.html


 

 Interesting photos, fun to see how my Lyr was born.


----------



## 45longcolt

Hi Zorg-
   
  While in theory I like the idea of a card/stick input, wouldn't that neccessitate various controls (play, pause, etc.,) a remote and a display screen - in other words, pretty much a digital player. At which point you might as well add a drawer mechanism and a laser reader and, oh wait, that would be a CD player rather than a DAC. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
   BTW, at least one current Marantz CD/SACD player does have a memory stick port right on the front panel, as do some others. Schiit seems to adhere to the KISS school.


----------



## Maxvla

I like the KISS school of thought, multiple selectable (obviously) inputs, multiple selectable outputs, sample rate indication... and that's it!


----------



## ZorgDK

Quote: 





45longcolt said:


> Hi Zorg-
> 
> While in theory I like the idea of a card/stick input, wouldn't that neccessitate various controls (play, pause, etc.,) a remote and a display screen - in other words, pretty much a digital player. At which point you might as well add a drawer mechanism and a laser reader and, oh wait, that would be a CD player rather than a DAC.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Hehe, yeah and let's add coffee heater while we're at it 
   
  A display would be in order for it to make sense and playback control could be done by a remote control to keep the chassis front from becoming cluttered.


----------



## ZorgDK

What's the KISS school? Keep it simple? Edit: never mind, just looked it up.
   
  I agree with sample rate indication, that's a feature I miss on my DAC.


----------



## Anaxilus

I vote for keeping it a DAC not making it a player.  Kind of defeats the point.  Unless you are of the school that integrating your player, DAC and amps into one unit has no negative impact on SQ like that article stated.


----------



## nsk1

All terrible ideas except the second output, it would be really helpful.


----------



## Kremer930

I like the idea of a sampling rate indicator too but would give up that idea for better sound quality. 

How about the colour of the power on LEDs? The one on my Lyr is very bright. Given a choice, I would prefer blue.


----------



## leesure

Quote: 





zorgdk said:


> Hehe, yeah and let's add coffee heater while we're at it


 
   
  Ummm...that's what the Lyr is for.


----------



## prozach1576

What is the point of a sample-rate indicator? If I have a high-res music file, I know it and am well-aware of the sample rate and bit depth.  Seems like a superfluous feature.


----------



## grokit

The balanced model(s) to come should have a SE output as well.


----------



## Kremer930

prozach1576 said:


> What is the point of a sample-rate indicator? If I have a high-res music file, I know it and am well-aware of the sample rate and bit depth.  Seems like a superfluous feature.




Superfluous to you perhaps but if I am sitting back picking tunes from an iPhone or iPad then I think it is nice to know the output.


----------



## Maxvla

Should be simple to implement and inexpensive. No reason not to really, especially if you are making a 'statement' or 'redefining' product. Also it's helpful in troubleshooting/checking to make sure your computer is outputting the right sample rate. Sometimes drivers do funky things with sound cards and what it says on the screen isn't always what comes out.

It can still be done tastefully in Schiit style. An example is the face of the DacMagic:


----------



## MrScary

maxvla said:


> Should be simple to implement and inexpensive. No reason not to really, especially if you are making a 'statement' or 'redefining' product. Also it's helpful in troubleshooting/checking to make sure your computer is outputting the right sample rate. Sometimes drivers do funky things with sound cards and what it says on the screen isn't always what comes out.
> 
> It can still be done tastefully in Schiit style. An example is the face of the DacMagic:




I think we may see some indicators on the higher end products but not the Bifrost. I personally don't need the indicators as I have my music separated out and can see the output as soon as the song starts in Foobar or Winamp. My Dac is on my audio stand and I don't stare at it.


----------



## Maxvla

Yes, that was my point. Include it on the top model, not the entry model.


----------



## grokit

How about a "stunning lcd display" 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ?


----------



## Balazska26

Quote: 





grokit said:


> How about a "stunning lcd display"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  That looks ugly.
   
  DacMagic is nice but I think it can be outperformed by an HRT MSII. So Bifrost will be much better than this CA.


----------



## Kremer930

It is funny that you have pictured the Dacmagic and the matrix.  They are my last two dacs.  I still have the Dacmagic until Schiit brings out their statement dac.
   
  I do think that my Lyr would like to have a Bifrost to keep it company.  I reckon I will weaken before the statement dac is released.  One Schiit dac is never enough!!


----------



## Yuceka

You've heard both the Dacmagic and HRT MSII? 
  Quote: 





balazska26 said:


> That looks ugly.
> 
> DacMagic is nice but I think it can be outperformed by an HRT MSII. So Bifrost will be much better than this CA.


----------



## WNBC

Agreed, bells and whistles for the high-end model.  Plus, the guys over at Schiit aren't changing anything now but they could be listening to what you want for the next two models.  Or, they could be thinking, "We got this Schiit guys, don't worry".  I don't know about you guys but I know the quality (FLAC, MP3, WMA, etc.) of all of my music regardless of the Foobar or DAC-2 readout.  However, I do agree, if there is an issue with the DAC communicating with your source then one wouldn't know.  With my previous PS Audio DLIII if the DAC didn't lock onto the source due to improper connection or unplayable bitrate (e.g. SACD music or 192 kHz) it just wouldn't work in addition to a LED light not coming on.  So that could be the case here, if something is not right, you won't need a readout or light coming on to show source is locked, it just won't work.  Minimalist but keeps the price low. 
  
  Quote: 





maxvla said:


> Yes, that was my point. Include it on the top model, not the entry model.


----------



## Maxvla

kremer930 said:


> It is funny that you have pictured the Dacmagic and the matrix.  They are my last two dacs.  I still have the Dacmagic until Schiit brings out their statement dac.
> 
> I do think that my Lyr would like to have a Bifrost to keep it company.  I reckon I will weaken before the statement dac is released.  One Schiit dac is never enough!!




My call on this is you can sell a used DacMagic for about the same price as you pay for a new non-usb Bifrost, which is what I ordered. Either way I'll end up spending not too much money because I'll either sell the DacMagic or return the Bifrost. If I like the Bifrost (or even if I don't) I'll probably step up to the statement DAC when it comes out.

I wonder if Schiit would ever consider an upgrade program like some computer part companies do (like video cards, etc). Trade in a spotless lower model and get most of that value towards the new model.


----------



## Kremer930

I aim to have the Lyr and Bifrost as the bedroom or study kit and the Statement amp and Dac as the lounge room kit.  I agree that the Dacmagic will get sold off to fund some Schiit.  I have got good results from the DacMagic but Schiit is the Schiit!!


----------



## Anaxilus

Bells and whistles are nice but I wouldn't want anything that takes them out of their price performance envelope wrt the competition.


----------



## MrScary

kremer930 said:


> I aim to have the Lyr and Bifrost as the bedroom or study kit and the Statement amp and Dac as the lounge room kit.  I agree that the Dacmagic will get sold off to fund some Schiit.  I have got good results from the DacMagic but Schiit is the Schiit!!




I'll give ya 5.00 for the DacMagic and a pack of smokes or a beer.. hahaha


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





balazska26 said:


> That looks ugly.


 

 Then I suppose you hate the aesthetics of this one also?


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





grokit said:


> Then I suppose you hate the aesthetics of this one also?


 

 Yes.


----------



## Benjamin6264

Schiit should keep it classy. Plus, those make me think of an alarm clock and a microwave.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





grokit said:


> Then I suppose you hate the aesthetics of this one also?


 
  Doesn't look like Schiit to me.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  I don't care for the styling over much either.  Looks too cheap.


----------



## MrScary

grokit said:


> Then I suppose you hate the aesthetics of this one also?




I hate green LED but its got nice aesthetics


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





mrscary said:


> I hate green LED but its got nice aesthetics


 
   
  Ugh, the font alone screams 80's Miami and Don Johnson.  All that's missing is the hot pink neon.  At least to my ears.


----------



## MrScary

anaxilus said:


> Ugh, the font alone screams 80's Miami and Don Johnson.  All that's missing is the hot pink neon.  At least to my ears.




too funny LOL


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> Doesn't look like Schiit to me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Looks can be deceiving, that's a $5,000 DAC !
   
  Depending on options of course, that fron panel design starts relatively cheap @ $1,400.


----------



## maverickronin

Quote:


grokit said:


> Looks can be deceiving, that's a $5,000 DAC !


 

 I think that's the reason _why _its bad for it to look so cheap...


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





maverickronin said:


> Quote:
> 
> I think that's the reason _why _its bad for it to look so cheap...


 

 Superficiality is in the eye of the beholder. It does have the ability to display an unlimited amount of information.


----------



## maverickronin

Quote: 





grokit said:


> Superficiality is in the eye of the beholder. It does have the ability to display an unlimited amount of information.


 

 Maybe it can display it, but unless you can read hex, a 7 segment display isn't going to convey much more numbers and parts of the alphabet...


----------



## rsgladwin85

Quote: 





grokit said:


> Superficiality is in the eye of the beholder. It does have the ability to display an unlimited amount of information.


 

 What good is that if its too ugly to want to look at. lol


----------



## MrScary

grokit said:


> Superficiality is in the eye of the beholder. It does have the ability to display an unlimited amount of information.




Why are you ranting on about a 5,000 dollar Dac am I in the wrong thread again? bad me


----------



## maverickronin

Quote: 





mrscary said:


> Why are you ranting on about a 5,000 dollar Dac am I in the wrong thread again? bad me


 

 We're talking about looks, and as physical objects the Schiit DACs have looks as well.  It has little to with price, as we've seen...
   
  Compare and contrast.


----------



## shaunybaby

I have been on there site looking at the designs of all there amps and there new dac and to put somthing like this in the line up would not be in there style what so ever.
   
  to me they have a good look already just keep it sort of the same and all will be good!        (BIFROST is soooooo good looking!!!!)


----------



## rsgladwin85

If theres one small thing I dont like about the material used for at least for what i've seen so far, its that while i love the brushed look, i wish the texture was smoother.  It seems as though the brushed crevices would catch dirt and make it hard to dust off.  But i'm merely nitpicking.


----------



## shaunybaby

I know some people may not care about seeing the back panel of the bifrost but i would love to see the backend 
   
  anyone seen it?


----------



## maverickronin

Quote: 





shaunybaby said:


> I know some people may not care about seeing the back panel of the bifrost but i would love to see the backend
> 
> anyone seen it?


 

 Last word is that it didn't actually exist yet.  All they've got are prototypes which don't look as nice and your avatar is a render, not a picture...


----------



## obazavil

The Bifrost panel looks nice IMHO... the dacmagic also looks clean and nice
   
  And yeah... only renders, no actual product yet to review for anyone.. yet


----------



## Anaxilus

Hell, all I would want is a black option for the top level stuff.  Otherwise I'd have to anodize the stuff myself and lose all that Schiit.


----------



## WNBC

I hear Tubbs has three of them
  
  Quote: 





anaxilus said:


> Ugh, the font alone screams 80's Miami and Don Johnson.  All that's missing is the hot pink neon.  At least to my ears.


----------



## judmarc

Quote: 





rsgladwin85 said:


> If theres one small thing I dont like about the material used for at least for what i've seen so far, its that while i love the brushed look, i wish the texture was smoother.  It seems as though the brushed crevices would catch dirt and make it hard to dust off.  But i'm merely nitpicking.


 


  When you say "seen so far," do you mean actual pieces or photos/renderings?  I was in their dealer's showroom this past Saturday listening to a Lyr, and though I didn't run my fingers across its surface or make a detailed examination, it did not look especially rough-textured to me, at least not to the point where there would be crevices deep enough to hold dust.
   
  (BTW, Jason, the fellow I spoke to - not the principal - said he'd love for you to call re the Bifrost.  But likely you've already communicated with someone there about it.)


----------



## MickeyVee

I actually don't mind the aesthetics of any of them.. I own the PS Audio DLIII & Matrix Mini-i.  Was considering the Bel Canto 1.5 but now that the Bifrost is coming, I think it will be an awesome look for my Head-Fi setup. Not to mention that I expect the combo to sound phenomenal.


----------



## leesure

Quote: 





judmarc said:


> When you say "seen so far," do you mean actual pieces or photos/renderings?  I was in their dealer's showroom this past Saturday listening to a Lyr, and though I didn't run my fingers across its surface or make a detailed examination, it did not look especially rough-textured to me, at least not to the point where there would be crevices deep enough to hold dust.
> 
> (BTW, Jason, the fellow I spoke to - not the principal - said he'd love for you to call re the Bifrost.  But likely you've already communicated with someone there about it.)


 


 What dealer?  I'm a PA guy too...Southeast.  Curious to know what dealers are carrying Schitt in PA.


----------



## USAudio

Quote: 





leesure said:


> What dealer?  I'm a PA guy too...Southeast.  Curious to know what dealers are carrying Schitt in PA


 

 Schiit has dealers???  That surprises me as with the prices they charge (very affordable) and being US-made, I don't know how they could make any money other than selling direct!


----------



## grokit

Now _*that*_ is a good-looking, informative display. Firewire too!


----------



## Lil' Knight

Everytime I look at those headphone jack and LEDs, I laugh a lot.


----------



## maverickronin

Quote: 





lil' knight said:


> Everytime I look at those headphone jack and LEDs, I laugh a lot.


 

 I didn't notice that before, but now the lulz won't stop...


----------



## grokit

That's one of the best DACs made, btw...


----------



## Maxvla

grokit said:


> That's one of the best DACs made, btw...




You can't help but laugh, though, despite it being 'the best'. 

It's even got dangling red haired bangs and a small goatee, heh.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





maxvla said:


> You can't help but laugh, though, despite it being 'the best'.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I resemble that last remark; are you talking about me or the DAC?


----------



## Kremer930

In my wait for the statement amp and DAC, I have weakened and ordered a Bifrost. Now I can sit back and wait until early September rather than Christmas time.


----------



## Maxvla

kremer930 said:


> In my wait for the statement amp and DAC, I have weakened and ordered a Bifrost. Now I can sit back and wait until early September rather than Christmas time.




See, wasn't that easy. Forget that willpower stuff. It's no good.


----------



## livewire

Quote: 





kremer930 said:


> In my wait for the statement amp and DAC, I have weakened and ordered a Bifrost. Now I can sit back and wait until early September rather than Christmas time.


 

 Then when the time comes, you can sell your Schiit and buy some more Schiit. And I'm sure that you will make a statement.


----------



## rsgladwin85

Quote: 





judmarc said:


> When you say "seen so far," do you mean actual pieces or photos/renderings?  I was in their dealer's showroom this past Saturday listening to a Lyr, and though I didn't run my fingers across its surface or make a detailed examination, it did not look especially rough-textured to me, at least not to the point where there would be crevices deep enough to hold dust.
> 
> (BTW, Jason, the fellow I spoke to - not the principal - said he'd love for you to call re the Bifrost.  But likely you've already communicated with someone there about it.)


 


  Yeah, I mean actual pieces.  It's not a big deal, just something very minute that would personally prefer.  When I first received my Lyr and took it out of the packaging, they're was a fine layer of dust.  I grabbed a lint free cloth to wipe it off, and to wipe from side to side against the "crevices" was met with a good bit of resistance, whereas to go with them was of no challenge.  And you're right, you can't tell by look at all.  Maybe I'm the only one who's paid this any attention, or perhaps mine was an anomaly.


----------



## grokit

Try a feather duster next time. Seriously, one with real feathers is preferable.


----------



## rsgladwin85

Quote: 





grokit said:


> Try a feather duster next time. Seriously, one with real feathers is preferable.


 

 Ugh, this hobby just never stops making me spend money......now I have to buy a real feather duster. Ugh....


----------



## nsk1

Quote: 





lil' knight said:


> Everytime I look at those headphone jack and LEDs, I laugh a lot.


 

  I would have serious problems putting my jack into it... That's what he said.


----------



## Balazska26

Quote: 





yuceka said:


> You've heard both the Dacmagic and HRT MSII?


 

 Yes, MSII is Superior to DacMagic. (my amp is an Asgard and I have an old version HD650 to listen music)


----------



## judmarc

Quote: 





rsgladwin85 said:


> Yeah, I mean actual pieces.  It's not a big deal, just something very minute that would personally prefer.  When I first received my Lyr and took it out of the packaging, they're was a fine layer of dust.  I grabbed a lint free cloth to wipe it off, and to wipe from side to side against the "crevices" was met with a good bit of resistance, whereas to go with them was of no challenge.  And you're right, you can't tell by look at all.  Maybe I'm the only one who's paid this any attention, or perhaps mine was an anomaly.


 
  Until I looked through your gear photos and saw the Lyr was back home, I thought you were getting bothered about a little dust on the Lyr in *Afghanistan*!  I'm thinking wow, not a guy you would want to tick off!
   
  Be home safe and soon and enjoyin' your Schiit, OK?


----------



## USAudio

Quote: 





grokit said:


> Now _*that*_ is a good-looking, informative display. Firewire too!


 
  This one is somewhat similar but will have a touch screen:

  http://www.lynxstudio.com/product_detail.asp?i=59


----------



## hp300plus

Jason,
   
  Regarding the USB sound quality/performance being better than SPDIF; would you elaborate what software was used during testing (Windows/Mac and what player)?  The Mac app "Audirvana" uses 'Integer mode' for compatible USB devices which bypasses several layers of Apple 'Core Audio' software in the OS and sends the data stream directly to the DAC.  It's had a very noticeable  effect (much better sound quality) on my nuForce uDac 2 and using a friend's HRT Music Streamer II+.  The app developer even has a whitepaper on the matter.
   
  http://www.amr-audio.co.uk/large_image/MAC%20OSX%20audio%20players%20&%20Integer%20Mode.pdf 
   
  Just curious if 'Integer Mode' was tested (don't know if there is something similar on the Windows platform) with Bifrost and what your thoughts were between Integer Mode USB and SPDIF; if SPDIF was still better.
   
  Appreciate your thoughts.


----------



## obazavil

Hehehe...
   
  I think his answer will be something like:
   
  "SPDIF is better, but our USB implementation is the best"
   
  but... i'm curious if they know this integer-something-USB
   
  The link for the same paper  without whitespaces is: http://goo.gl/Qpefs


----------



## grokit

Hey Jason, any chance the high-end unit will have ADC as well as DAC functionality?


----------



## maverickronin

Quote: 





grokit said:


> Hey Jason, any chance the high-end unit will have ADC as well as DAC functionality?


 

 Maybe it can purify spoiled food and raise the dead too.
   
  If I had to pick though, I'd ask for it to be an android in the shape a Valkyrie which could serenade me with Scandinavian black/death metal though...


----------



## ZorgDK

Quote: 





rsgladwin85 said:


> Ugh, this hobby just never stops making me spend money......now I have to buy a real feather duster. Ugh....


 

 Didn't you know, a real feather duster will make it sound better too, have at it.


----------



## Hero Kid

Quote:


grokit said:


> Hey Jason, any chance the high-end unit will have ADC as well as DAC functionality?


 
   
  I for one am hopeful.


----------



## USAudio

Quote: 





hero kid said:


> Quote:
> 
> I for one am hopeful.


 

 I don't see it happening, just not enough demand for ADC in the market this unit is targeting. 
  How would you guys primarily be using a combination ADC / DAC unit?  Typically those are separate units.


----------



## Hero Kid

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *USAudio* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> [...] How would you guys primarily be using a combination ADC / DAC unit?  Typically those are separate units.


 

 Ripping my vinyl :/


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





hero kid said:


> Quote:
> 
> Ripping my vinyl :/


 

 Do you have a phono pre-amp you plan to use for this?


----------



## Hero Kid

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> Do you have a phono pre-amp you plan to use for this?


 
   
  Yep. Turntable → Phono Stage → ADC (Schiit?) → Laptop →  Software.


----------



## Killbox

Mid september is really a long wait. Could really use this thing before that :/


----------



## Uncle00Jesse

will the bifrost be able to pair with a squeezebox touch as a transport? i read somewhere that no all DACs work well with the sbt..


----------



## gh0st0

Quote: 





uncle00jesse said:


> will the bifrost be able to pair with a squeezebox touch as a transport? i read somewhere that no all DACs work well with the sbt..


 

 Any indication as to why it wouldn't work with some DACs? On paper SBT has coax and optical SPDIF outputs for 16/24bit and the usual compliment of sample rates, so.... doesn't seem to be any reason in principle it wouldn't be fine with Bifrost.


----------



## Butler

I'd still like an official answer as to if these should be stacked or not, meaning the schiit DAC on their amp or vice versa. I don't have much desk space and they would look nice one on top of the other.
   
  I'm sure the engineers themselves would know if their products would be prone to interference with one another.


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





butler said:


> I'd still like an official answer as to if these should be stacked or not, meaning the schiit DAC on their amp or vice versa. I don't have much desk space and they would look nice one on top of the other.
> 
> I'm sure the engineers themselves would know if their products would be prone to interference with one another.


 

 Shoot Jason an email.  I think that's quicker and easier for them.


----------



## obazavil

Quote: 





anaxilus said:


> Shoot Jason an email.  I think that's quicker and easier for them.


 


  Yeah... and please share the answer


----------



## Maxvla

I would think with amp on top and some extra spacers stacking should be fine.


----------



## warp08

subscribed


----------



## sling5s

Subscribed


----------



## shaunybaby

so how is the email coming with the info on stacking the combo?


----------



## milosolo

I would like to know if any of the Schiit DAC models will feature at least one analog in? I'd like to connect my phono stage to it. Most DACs are designed around two-channel operation so I find it interesting that only a few offer analog in. I suppose most people go straight into a pre-amp with their phono stage instead?


----------



## grokit

You'd be better off with an additional input in the amp, this is more common as well but not in Schitt's lineup (yet).


----------



## xinque

Jason Stoddard jason@schiit.com
   
  On top is fine--and we love Lyr with our T1s--but then again, we're biased!

 Sent from my iPhone
  
  > Hey,
 >
 > New audiophile here, was looking at your products for my first desktop system to pair with a Beyerdynamic T1.  Have limited space in my room so I was considering stacking the Lyr on top of the Bifrost (I understand the footprint is identical from the website).  Also hear the Lyr can run quite hot at times, do you think this would be of concern in stacking the two?  Also, any idea how the T1 would pair with the products?
 >
 > Cheers
  
  Quote: 





obazavil said:


> Yeah... and please share the answer


----------



## xxhaxx

Quote: 





xinque said:


> Jason Stoddard jason@schiit.com
> 
> On top is fine--and we love Lyr with our T1s--but then again, we're biased!
> 
> ...


 


  Good to know :] I might buy big rubber feet to allow an air path to flow underneath the amp though


----------



## grokit

There won't be a problem underneath the Lyr unless the Bifrost runs warm as well, as heat rises upwards ^.


----------



## 45longcolt

Don't worry about the Lyr running hot, that only happens when it's on. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





    
   
  I plan to keep my Bifrost next to my Lyr, though I might look into some brass "footers" or "cones" to facilitate stacking. This would not only allow for some breathing space but also give an audiophile look to the whole thing.


----------



## internethandle

I guess I can confirm that the Bifrost will, like the Lyr and Valhalla, use EI type transformers rather than toroidal or R-Core etc. - here's Jason's reply as to why:
   
  Quote: 





> "Reed,
> 
> 
> Yeah, transformers get down to more of a religious discussion sometimes, but, bottom line: why would you want a transformer that bleeds more high-frequency hash back onto the AC line (like a toroid or R-core) in a DAC?
> ...


 
   
   
  Sounds like sound reasoning to me.


----------



## Kremer930

Less than one month until the shipping of the Bifrost.  Yay!!
   
  In anticipation of dressing up my Schiit rig I have ordered a silver USB cable with USB A and B ends as well as 8 anti vibration feet to get some air flow happening between the Bifrost and the Lyr...and to hopefully make it look even better.
   
  Then once we have started to hear of the reviews of the Bifrost then it shouldnt be far off the mid tier Dac going on pre-order and then once that goes on delivery we should finally be close to the Statement amp and DAC going on pre-order.  It should surely be some interesting Schiit times coming up.
   
  The title of this thread will need to be corrected too.  Unless we want to start a new thread for the Statement Amp and perhaps something else...but cant say about that....


----------



## IIMB

does anyone know when any sort of impressions or reviews of the bifrost might be coming out? im building my first quality audio system and i would love to preorder the bifrost but i'm worried it won't be a good match with the k-702's and in that case i'll order the matrix cube, thanks 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, by the way i'm new here as you guys may have noticed


----------



## Misterrogers

Welcome! You're a bit early on Bifrost. I suspect it'll be another month or so before you're able to read reviews/impressions. I thing to keep in mind - Jason and Mike (co-founders) of Schiit use the K702 as one of the tubes they use to tune their amps - at least the ones that spec'd for cans such as the K702. I have some K702s and they sound really good with Asgard and Great with Lyr. I know one if their goals with Bifrost was transparency - so I fully expect it to be a good match.
   
  Mike


----------



## Maxvla

-tubes +headphones


----------



## IIMB

Quote: 





misterrogers said:


> Welcome! You're a bit early on Bifrost. I suspect it'll be another month or so before you're able to read reviews/impressions. I thing to keep in mind - Jason and Mike (co-founders) of Schiit use the K702 as one of the tubes they use to tune their amps - at least the ones that spec'd for cans such as the K702. I have some K702s and they sound really good with Asgard and Great with Lyr. I know one if their goals with Bifrost was transparency - so I fully expect it to be a good match.
> 
> Mike


 


  thanks! sorry for the late reply i'm still figuring out how everything works, and well that's good to know because i've done an excessive amount of research for getting a system to compliment the 702's and didn't really want to go the tube route. Not sure why now that i think about it, oh well. The m stage is well regarded and im content, i just can't wait to have something better than my ipod for a source. i think i may just take the jump on the bifrost 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Quote: 





> -tubes +headphones


----------



## Kremer930

Schiit doesn't normally provide review samples until after release of the products. Well, at least I don't think that they have previously. There was some mention that Skylab would be getting a sample to check out this time around though. 

If it is any help to you... I used to own some K702's and loved their detail. The only reason that I sold them was to chase a little more bottom end. I owned the matrix mini and preferred the Dacmagic over that slightly. It is my plan to upgrade from the dacmagic to the Bifrost. 

I have never heard the Bifrost before and so it is a leap of faith based on Jason's reputation and of course Mikes too. 

We won't know how wise this is until release date....


----------



## IIMB

^_  I will be looking into what skylab has to say when he gets the sample . I got interested in the bifrost for their great reputation as well, I'm trying my best to get an absolutely bang for your buck system. From what I've read, schiit is good in terms of value and they have amazing customer support that i've witnessed from other threads where Jason comes in and really trys to help. so i'm pretty set on the bifrost especially after all the lurking I did and reading up on other products, i'm tired and sure that the Bifrost will do me good. And i'm also loving my k-702's 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 but then again they were my first jump into hi-fi._


----------



## SurfWax

I don't have a DAC or amp yet but I have been reading reviews on various amps, DACs for weeks now and in late September when I have some money, I will be buying my first DAC, the Bifrost, with USB input. It looks amazing and I really like the upgradable easy-ness.


----------



## baglunch

I'm pretty happy with my setup, but becoming interested in upgrading my Gamma 1 DAC, and greatly looking forward to reviews on the Bifrost (and it's bigger brothers when they come out).  I try to keep myself from checking this thread too often as it makes the waiting seem longer, but I still seem to check in every few days and then look at the calendar again.  The clock ticks so slowly sometimes.


----------



## Kremer930

I am sure that there are many others that are being taught the virtues of patience by Schiit.  I tried to see if by buying a BIfrost if it would make the waoting any easier...but it didnt work.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Hopefully now that the Bifrost is only 3 weeks from shipping, Jason may start to make public some of the design highlights of the middle dac... and maybe some others?  I am hoping that Jason has some details that can be released and would surely help  distract from the wait for a few days.....


----------



## olor1n

The only thing stopping me from blindly ordering the Bifrost is the single RCA outputs. I wish it had two sets so I could output to the Lyr and my powered speakers separately.


----------



## milosolo

I wish it had analog outs and ins to support a phono stage for example. I can only hope that one of the Statement DACs will have this feature.


----------



## grokit

I would like to see what the back of it looks like.


----------



## livewire

Yeah, I think we all would.
  As I said before, "the kimono's not off".
  They are prolly debating the merits of pass-through RCA connectors
  and who knows what other voodoo.


----------



## Maxvla

Base model will be a stripped down purpose built unit. This keeps quality high and price low. Don't expect more than a pair of RCA outputs on the back. Look for everything including the kitchen sink on the statement model, though.


----------



## grokit

Yes I would imagine debate/decision time is well over on the Bifrost, and I would bet you're right about the single output Maxvla.
  I just want to see the back out of curiosity more than anything. Also looking for an announcement re the mid-grade unit's release date


----------



## Hero Kid

Quote: 





maxvla said:


> [...] Look for everything including the kitchen sink on the statement model, though.


 

 I'm not expecting a load of bells and whistles on higher models and I don't think you should. More bells and whistles, sure, but certainly not "everything and the kitchen sink". It simply isn't Schiit's style. Just because the higher end models will cost more (than base model) does not mean they will throw the rest of the budget towards "features". That is my take on it. I'm prepared to be surprised but I am not expecting it.


----------



## caracara08

Was just emailing back and forth wtih Schiit's only distributor at the moment, http://www.hideflifestyle.com/, the only have ONE preorder in.  no tax for californians.  their system isnt showing it, but it will be free shipping on schiit products. they dont charge your CC until shipment is ready and you can contact them at any time. theyre very responsive too.


----------



## leesure

Quote: 





olor1n said:


> The only thing stopping me from blindly ordering the Bifrost is the single RCA outputs. I wish it had two sets so I could output to the Lyr and my powered speakers separately.


 


  You have a pair of outs on your Lyr...just run them to the powered speakers.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





olor1n said:


> The only thing stopping me from blindly ordering the Bifrost is the single RCA outputs. I wish it had two sets so I could output to the Lyr and my powered speakers separately.


 

 Why not simply use a good quality "Y" adapter?


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





milosolo said:


> I wish it had analog outs and ins to support a phono stage for example. I can only hope that one of the Statement DACs will have this feature.


 

 Wait a minute...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...We're talking about a DAC here, right?  We are not discussing pre-amps.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





leesure said:


> You have a pair of outs on your Lyr...just run them to the powered speakers.


 
  I use the line outs to drive secondary gear all the time.  The Lyr works very well for this purpose.


----------



## milosolo

Very true. There are several "pre-amp" DACs that have RCA inputs though, e.g. Benchmark, Peachtree, Burson, Matrix Quattro, Maverick D1, etc.
  
  Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> Wait a minute...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Hero Kid

I would consider it a ADC rather than pre-amp if it had RCA ins (which I want).


----------



## captouch

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> Why not simply use a good quality "Y" adapter?


 
   
  This doesn't degrade the signal at all?


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





milosolo said:


> Very true. There are several "pre-amp" DACs that have RCA inputs though, e.g. Benchmark, Peachtree, Burson, Matrix Quattro, Maverick D1, etc.


 

 Not to mention the new [size=x-small]Luxman DA-200.[/size]

  
  Quote: 





hero kid said:


> I would consider it a ADC rather than pre-amp if it had RCA ins (which I want).


 

 Is this necessarily true? Does a USB input always work both ways, as an output as well?


----------



## Hero Kid

Quote: 





grokit said:


> Is this necessarily true? Does a USB input always work both ways, as an output as well?


 

 I was not meaning to imply you could use the USB as an output. The point I was trying to make is I wish Schiit had/have a DAC on the market that allowed me to use it as a ADC to record some of my LPs.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





captouch said:


> *This doesn't degrade the signal at all?*


 
  The truthful answer to your question is; "it depends."
   
  The practical answer to your question is; "probably not."
   
  dependencies:

 quality of line output driver
 input load of devices being driven.  capacitive, inductive, and impedance loads.
 quality of "Y" adapters used.
   
  My "Y" adapters cause no discernible change in the performance of my system because...

 good drive capability of line out from my DAC
 good quality construction of my "Y" adapters
 very negligible load of the two devices I'm driving.


----------



## JIGF

Thanks Kevin, I had been wondering if a Y adapter may affect the sound for a while now.
  Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> good quality construction of my "Y" adapters


 
   
  Which one do you use?


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





jigf said:


> Thanks Kevin, I had been wondering if a Y adapter may affect the sound for a while now.
> 
> Which one do you use?


 

 One that's no longer made, as far as I know.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  If I needed more, I would probably make them myself or pay somebody like ALO or Q-Audio to make them so I know they're done properly.
   
  This one may be ok:
http://www.google.com/products/catalog?hl=en&cp=21&gs_id=c&xhr=t&q=y+adapter+audio+cable&qe=eSBhZGFwdGVyIGF1ZGlvIGNhYmxl&qesig=jNADubojACpeX7NG-lwHYg&pkc=AFgZ2tlEv3YSYBHmhOExAOolTUlRQkG3zE9BupfxhRwAiO6bLVHYOjMDnGZrgE6qLWBjALs7TS34F-vDLqN-gGXqBzGBB11XCg&nord=1&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&ion=1&biw=1270&bih=679&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=13504841509383046859&sa=X&ei=ssVGTpb9LLOFsgL2oe2RCA&sqi=2&ved=0CEsQ8wIwAQ
   
  This one might be ok:
http://www.amazon.com/Mediabridge-Ultra-Adapter-2-Female-Subwoofer/dp/B005DL2OVE/ref=sr_1_45?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1313261431&sr=1-45
   
  I would NOT recommend these.  They're very poorly made and regularly fall apart of their own accord.
http://www.monstercable.com/productdisplay.asp?pin=655


----------



## milosolo

Ooohhh... aaaahhh! In terms of inputs/outputs this looks perfect for my needs. It even has balanced outs to go to my Rotel amp. Unfortunately it's way out of my budget range at this time. I'm going to have to read some reviews and start saving some $$.
   
  Thanks for pointing this out to me.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  Quote: 





grokit said:


> Not to mention the new [size=x-small]Luxman DA-200.[/size]


----------



## dyl1dyl

Hey guys, bad news. The bifrost is almost certainly going to be delayed for at least some of us


----------



## sling5s

Care to be more specific and who are the some of us?
  
  Quote: 





dyl1dyl said:


> Hey guys, bad news. The bifrost is almost certainly going to be delayed for at least some of us


----------



## sling5s

Jason said he will announce it Monday.  Hope it's not a long delay.


----------



## JIGF

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> One that's no longer made, as far as I know.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Thanks again Kevin.


----------



## Jason Stoddard

Hey all,

   

  I’m sorry to say that we’re going to have to move the Bifrost shipping date to September 30, rather than August 31, as we had initially planned.

   

  What went wrong? Well, rather than a chassis problem this time, it’s a parts delay--in this case, the transformer. Our production run slipped, so they won’t be here until early September. When you add board production, assembly (surface mount, which we contract locally), and test time after that, it’s not going to ship before the end of September.

   

  In proper Schiit fashion, here’s the FAQ:

   

*Hey, I’ve already been waiting long enough! Gimme a refund!*

  Technically, this isn’t a question. And technically, we haven’t taken your money. But we totally understand--just email us and we’ll be happy to cancel your order.

   

*I ordered on (insert date here). Do I still get in on the first run of Bifrost?*

  Yes! We planned for a very large first run, so we’re not in danger of going into backorder.

   

*Does this mean that every single Bifrost is going to ship on September 30?*

  No. We actually produce Bifrost here in the USA on our own production line, which has a finite capacity. The earliest orders will be shipped first, and we don’t anticipate it will take more than a week or two after production starts to clear all the backorders.

   

*Oh no! What can I possibly do while I wait for shipment?*

  Well, you can visit our “Balanced Amp Research & Valhalla Giveaway” thread in Sponsor Announcements and Deals. Let us know what you think about balanced headphones and amps, what kind of connections you need, and features you want. Everyone who responds before August 31, 2011 will be entered to win a Valhalla, and we’ll announce the winner, chosen by random drawing, in the following week.

   

  All the best,

  Jason


----------



## MrScary

jason stoddard said:


> Hey all,
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Glad I canceled mine and waiting on the higher end DAC


----------



## Kremer930

That is a bit soft Mr Scary. . Dont you need multiple rigs?

I personally want to Bifrost to keep the Lyr company for when it gets moved off centre stage for the Schiit statement rig.


----------



## MrScary

kremer930 said:


> That is a bit soft Mr Scary. . Dont you need multiple rigs?
> 
> I personally want to Bifrost to keep the Lyr company for when it gets moved off centre stage for the Schiit statement rig.




I decided that I would wait on the Higher end DAC and use my minimax for my guitar room setup I don't really need the Bifrost right now and hahaha I just spent 4 grand on guitar equipment so I kinda changed my priorities around


----------



## Kremer930

I was only teasing. I know that you are hanging out for the statement gear as well like me. 

$4k on guitar gear. Ouch. You must play a mean tune. Way to go.


----------



## MrScary

kremer930 said:


> I was only teasing. I know that you are hanging out for the statement gear as well like me.
> 
> $4k on guitar gear. Ouch. You must play a mean tune. Way to go.




Yeah the nice thing about guitar equipment is for 500.00 you get a fully balanced piece of equipment with enough inputs and outputs to raise the dead bigger bang for the buck with audio production equipment as they are larger manufacturers


----------



## 45longcolt

Quote: 





hero kid said:


> I was not meaning to imply you could use the USB as an output. The point I was trying to make is I wish Schiit had/have a DAC on the market that allowed me to use it as a ADC to record some of my LPs.


 


 Have you seen the Furutech GT40? It's a DAC, headphone amp and ADC for US$525. Not de Schiit, true, but might be just what you're seeking. Oops, I think I went OT...  Of course, if Schiit wanted to make such a product I'd preorder immediately, but Jason doesn't seem to favor the kitchen sink approach. Lean and mean seems to be the company slogan in both business model and product.


----------



## 45longcolt

Forgot to mention the GT40 is also a phono preamp. Senior moment.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





			
				Hero Kid said:
			
		

> I was not meaning to imply you could use the USB as an output. The point I was trying to make is I wish Schiit had/have a DAC on the market that allowed me to use it as a ADC to record some of my LPs.


 
  Quote: 





45longcolt said:


> Have you seen the Furutech GT40? It's a DAC, headphone amp and ADC for US$525. Not de Schiit, true, but might be just what you're seeking. Oops, I think I went OT...  Of course, if Schiit wanted to make such a product I'd preorder immediately, but Jason doesn't seem to favor the kitchen sink approach. Lean and mean seems to be the company slogan in both business model and product.
> 
> Forgot to mention the GT40 is also a phono preamp. Senior moment.


 


 That GT40 is one heckofa piece of gear, if it was 192 kHz it would be perfect for ripping vinyl. As it sits it still looks pretty good at 96 kHz and what I have read about it is all pretty positive.
   
  The Firestone Fubar USB I/O uses its USB port in a bi-directional capability as well. It's only 48 kHz though.


----------



## 45longcolt

Grokit-
   
  Entirely agree with you, especially about the 192 Khz. In fact, this thing has tempted me in the past but I've waited just in case Furutech does upgrade to 192 in the near future.
   
  And as a big fan of HHGttG and Douglas Adams (RIP), I appreciate your avatar...


----------



## milosolo

Ah yes the GT40. It looks good on paper but does someone actually have one to review? (I haven't read all 43 pages of this thread.) Its phono stage supports MM and MC which is a definite +. There are a number of choices out there in the $600+ price range but MM/MC support + USB DAC makes it look like a relative bargain. I am partial to Japanese equipment and Furutech is obviously a well-known name. No one seems to know much about the Luxman DA-200 either so I may have to take the plunge.


----------



## grokit

^ The headphone amp on the GT40 is supposed to be pretty decent as well if your cans aren't too demanding.
  I can't wait to read some impressions on the Bifrost though and get some information on the next one down the pipeline, that balanced one really interests me


----------



## Kremer930

I think that the next DAC along will be in a different chassis. Which may cause a need to buy another Schiit amp to match.


----------



## grmnasasin0227

Quote: 





kremer930 said:


> I think that the next DAC along will be in a different chassis. Which may cause a need to buy another Schiit amp to match.


 
  I disagree. Schiit prides themselves on keeping cost as low as possible, and that is made possible by no-nonsense chassis that are all pretty much exactly the same. All the DACs should look pretty much alike.


----------



## tkteo

I think it was mentioned that the next two DACs after the Bifrost will use a different chassis.


----------



## Maxvla

I remember a different chassis being stated as well.


----------



## Jason Stoddard

Same style chassis? Yes.
  Same size? No.
   
  So yeah, different chassis.


----------



## grmnasasin0227

Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> Same style chassis? Yes.
> Same size? No.
> 
> So yeah, different chassis.


 
  Thanks for the clarification!


----------



## nsk1

Yup, it was.


----------



## Kremer930

Quote: 





grmnasasin0227 said:


> I disagree. Schiit prides themselves on keeping cost as low as possible, and that is made possible by no-nonsense chassis that are all pretty much exactly the same. All the DACs should look pretty much alike.


 

 If you think about it, the larger chassis had to come.  I agree that Schiit keeps costs down by limiting style choices etc but with the statement amp coming out I would doubt that all of the required power supply and components would physically fit within the Lyr chassis.  Even the Lyr is quite full as it is...and possibly why most peoples first impressions when unpacking it is that it is built like a brick.
   
  Jason- Do you have any other tidbits of information that you are able to release to help us pass time whilst counting down to 30 September?


----------



## ttol

jason stoddard said:


> Same style chassis? Yes.
> Same size? No.
> 
> So yeah, different chassis.




But does it come in black? Because black sounds better.


----------



## yeemanz

I thought black would look cooler as well, but after getting the Lyr, it being silver makes it stand out amongst my setup which I quite like.


----------



## MrScary

spacejunk said:


> I haven't read this thread in it's entirety so I apologise if this question has already been answered, but will the Schiit DAC operate at a high temperature? It's a consideration for me with my desktop set up. Thanks in advance.




What you planning on doing cooking it ?


----------



## Kremer930

I am pretty sure that Jason has said that he doesnt think that tubes are a good match with DAC's, or at least that was my interpretation, and so we should see solid state only.  Given that they dont need to output much power, I would guess that they wouldnt add any significant heat.  Does any dac get hot?  all of the stand alone dacs that I have tried have all ran cool.


----------



## Maxvla

My Dacmagic runs slightly warm, not hot by any means, just warmer than room temperature.


----------



## Jason Stoddard

I'm sorry to say the barbecue option won't be available for Bifrost. It only runs slightly warm. Especially when it has the right voltage out from the transformer, ha.


----------



## Jason Stoddard

Oh yes, and the rather cryptic reference to overvoltage transformers was the bugaboo that put us behind. We've definitely learned our lesson on preorders: don't do it until ALL production parts are in-house and qualified.
   
  Unfortunately, this will probably lead to some delays in announcing new gear, but it will contribute to _your_ overall sanity, we think.
   
  (And, that said, I still think you'll be seeing some balanced gear this year.)


----------



## 45longcolt

OK, C'mon, Jason, drop another veil - metaphorically speaking...
   
  So we can expect a mid-grade DAC in a few months and then a loaded-for-bear effort at the end of 2011/early 2012, both in the same larger case?
   
  And a balanced amp in that same large case, or are you planning two? And just for phones, or able to drive (very efficient) speakers as well?
   
  Enquiring minds want to know (and start saving...)


----------



## Jason Stoddard

Quote: 





45longcolt said:


> OK, C'mon, Jason, drop another veil - metaphorically speaking...
> 
> So we can expect a mid-grade DAC in a few months and then a loaded-for-bear effort at the end of 2011/early 2012, both in the same larger case?
> 
> ...


 
   
  Yeah, you don't want me dropping any more veils than metaphorical ones, that's for sure!
   
  Here's what you can expect:
   
  Balanced DAC and balanced/minimalist* amp, both in the same larger chassis, before the end of the year. It's likely the first balanced amp will be only solid state, to the dismay of our tube fans. Sorry about that. Some people like silicon too. It's cool. 
   
  Statement DAC and statement/versatile hybrid balanced amp, both in the same larger chassis, and probably deeper than the aforementioned products, early next year. 
   
  *Minimalist will still have things like single-ended outputs--we're not insane.


----------



## 45longcolt

Thanks, Jason, you're a gentleman and a scholar. No offense.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  Hope you don't mind if I skip the next two, but sign me up for the statement duo. Hopefully both will be available for preorder at the same time. And hopefully I'll have the coin by then.


----------



## Maxvla

Wow Jason you got a genuine LOL from me with that first veil comment!

As always looking forward to the Bitfrost and also the statement DAC. Thanks for the communication on the delay.


----------



## wgb113

****!  The statement DAC got pushed back to 2012...hopefully the wait is worth it!


----------



## Kremer930

I dont know if there is much change on the statement gear confirmed as yet.  My interpretation from what has been said so far was that it would go pre-order around Christmas and ship beginning of March in much the same manner as the Lyr did.
   
  Once you hear the spec of that monster...the wait becomes even harder.


----------



## kr0gg

Quote: 





kremer930 said:


> I dont know if there is much change on the statement gear confirmed as yet.  My interpretation from what has been said so far was that it would go pre-order around Christmas and ship beginning of March in much the same manner as the Lyr did.
> 
> Once you hear the spec of that monster...the wait becomes even harder.


 

 it's kinda hard to know judge his specs without knowing exact hardware involved


----------



## shrimants

im sorry but i just cannot get over the name of the company.... how is that pronounced? Please tell me that it isnt pronounced how i think it is pronounced.


----------



## ocswing

Quote: 





shrimants said:


> im sorry but i just cannot get over the name of the company.... how is that pronounced? Please tell me that it isnt pronounced how i think it is pronounced.


 

 From their front page, "And yes, that is our name. And yes, it’s pronounced exactly like you think."


----------



## nsk1

It's "SCHEIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIT: with german accent.


----------



## olor1n

Quote: 





shrimants said:


> im sorry but i just cannot get over the name of the company.... how is that pronounced? Please tell me that it isnt pronounced how i think it is pronounced.


----------



## nsk1

Haha, Clay Davis abides.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





shrimants said:


> im sorry but i just cannot get over the name of the company.... how is that pronounced? Please tell me that it isnt pronounced how i think it is pronounced.


 

 It's pronounced phonetically, emphasis on the _S*ch*_ part. Pretty sure that it's ancient Norse for "awesome gear at a great price point".


----------



## bobeau

Quote: 





olor1n said:


>


 
   












.  The Wire, best show ever...


----------



## marcelo61

so when is the xlr version gonna be out,volume control will be nice plus.


----------



## ninjikiran

I wish I knew how the bit frost would compare to the WM8741 NFB-2 I own, or even the dacs based off the Sabre chip.
   
  Whereas one is warm, the other is considered neutral and revealing.  Where do you think the bitfrost will fit into the spectrum of revealing, or warmth?  I understand if you don't want to put any kind of perception into peoples minds.
   
  Those that know about the higher end dacs that use the same chip as the bit frost, what kind of comparisons can you make to the current popular mainstream dac's(and their various implementations).


----------



## sampson_smith

Subscribed! I am rather interested in this DAC and wonder if it will be a good pairing with my WA6SE/LCD-2 r.1. Time will certainly tell, once the reviews and comparisons start pouring in.


----------



## bobeau

Quote: 





ninjikiran said:


> I wish I knew how the bit frost would compare to the WM8741 NFB-2 I own, or even the dacs based off the Sabre chip.
> 
> Whereas one is warm, the other is considered neutral and revealing.  Where do you think the bitfrost will fit into the spectrum of revealing, or warmth?  I understand if you don't want to put any kind of perception into peoples minds.
> 
> Those that know about the higher end dacs that use the same chip as the bit frost, what kind of comparisons can you make to the current popular mainstream dac's(and their various implementations).


 

 I would venture it's closer to the WM8741.  The comments I've seen on this chip in forums/reviews tend to place it in the more musical/non-analytical spectrum.


----------



## Maxvla

ninjikiran said:


> I wish I knew how the bit frost would compare to the WM8741 NFB-2 I own, or even the dacs based off the Sabre chip.
> 
> Whereas one is warm, the other is considered neutral and revealing.  Where do you think the bitfrost will fit into the spectrum of revealing, or warmth?  I understand if you don't want to put any kind of perception into peoples minds.
> 
> Those that know about the higher end dacs that use the same chip as the bit frost, what kind of comparisons can you make to the current popular mainstream dac's(and their various implementations).




It's Bifrost (no T)


----------



## yeemanz

Quote: 





maxvla said:


> It's Bifrost (no T)


 


  Lol, one of my friends keeps making that mistake as well


----------



## ninjikiran

Its hard not to, bitfrost sounds better and rolls off the tongue easier.


----------



## Hero Kid

Quote:


ninjikiran said:


> Its hard not to, bitfrost sounds better and rolls off the tongue easier.


 

 It is also a more logical name as far as it's practicalities go (being a DAC and all). But Bifrost fits with the mythological nature of their theme, so either work in my opinion


----------



## justie

lol, i always pronounced it as 'by-frost' but yeah, this dac sure is interesting although im extremely curious abt the statement dac as well XD


----------



## nsk1

I've heard AK4396, but I don't know if it's similar to the 4399. Sound is rather on bright/analytical side than wolfson's warm and smooth. I've spoken to the guy who is DIY builder and I am pretty sure he tried almost all of the chips. In the end it all comes down to how someone implements the chip, but he said to me that AK4399 is like "more musical Sabre", you won't get that much details and revealing, but music is not sterile either and in the end he didn't like Sabre on discrete analog stage. He said that Sabre matched quite nice with tube amps and wanted to try tubes with Sabre, but eventually gave up because Sabre was pain in the ass to work with (chip, not company). On the other hand they use those AK's chips in Esoteric stuff so...


----------



## sampson_smith

Based on a quick Wiki search, it immediately becomes obvious why Bifrost is a very good name for a Schiit DAC:
   
  "In Norse mythology, *Bifröst* or *Bilröst* is a burning rainbow bridge that reaches between Midgard (the world) and Asgard, the realm of the gods. The bridge is attested as _Bilröst_ in the _Poetic Edda_; compiled in the 13th century from earlier traditional sources, and as _Bifröst_ in the _Prose Edda_; written in the 13th century by Snorri Sturluson, and in the poetry of skalds. Both the _Poetic Edda_ and the _Prose Edda_ alternately refer to the bridge as *Asbrú* (Old Norse "Æsir's bridge").[1]
   
  Scholar Andy Orchard posits that _Bifröst_ may mean "shimmering path." He notes that the first element of _Bilröst_—_bil_ (meaning "a moment")—"suggests the fleeting nature of the rainbow," which he connects to the first element of _Bifröst_—the Old Norse verb _bifa_ (meaning "to shimmer" or "to shake")—noting that the element provokes notions of the "lustrous sheen" of the bridge.[2] Austrian Germanist Rudolf Simek says that _Bifröst_ either means "the swaying road to heaven" (also citing _bifa_) or, if _Bilröst_ is the original form of the two (which Simek says is likely), "the fleetingly glimpsed rainbow" (possibly connected to _bil_, perhaps meaning "moment, weak point").[3]"
   
  So I hope this means that this doesn't only work with the Asgard, and only works best when playing "Stairway to Heaven".


----------



## Hero Kid

Quote: 





sampson_smith said:


> Based on a quick Wiki search, it immediately becomes obvious why Bifrost is a very good name for a Schiit DAC:
> 
> [...]


 

 Indeed. http://www.head-fi.org/t/545842/schiit-dacs-one-down-two-to-go-the-information-and-anticipation-thread/105#post_7512245


----------



## sampson_smith

Fair enough. I had a feeling that was discussed before. Pretty witty Schiit, regardless!


----------



## dyl1dyl

Hey Jason, the waiting is getting kinda unbearable, mind shedding some light on the upcoming balanced DAC and statement DAC to tide us over till the Bifrost ships? (hint hint-design, concept and pricing would be nice)


----------



## Zorlac

My want list:
   
  1. 75 Ohm BNC digital S/PDIF input
   
  2. Two 3-pin XLR balanced analog outputs
   
  3. Dual Wolfson WM8741 DAC chips
   
  4. Sample rate display (or LED lights) on front so I can verify bitperfect output from my source (i.e. computer)


----------



## sling5s

I would think the Schiit Statement Dac would have a better Dac chip than the WM8741.  I know it's in the implementation but even Budget Dacs by Audio GD has Dual WM8741.
  
  Quote: 





zorlac said:


> My want list:
> 
> 1. 75 Ohm BNC digital S/PDIF input
> 
> ...


----------



## K3cT

The highly-regarded PerfectWave DAC also has the WM8741. What's your point?


----------



## Kremer930

No need to discuss the WM8741, as much as I do like the detail and yet smoothness of those chips, they are not the one to be used in the upcoming Schiit Dacs.  You may well guess the mid tier dac chip but the top end dac will have something quite different from what I have heard.
   
  I cant remember if Jason has announced the chip for the mid dac yet?  Does anyone recall?


----------



## marcelo61

i don't care what chip in there but the SQ,if it sounds good ,that's all the matter.
  i want the xlr output too,and the aes/ebu input.


----------



## agisthos

Hey Jason tell us about the discrete output stage.
   
  It is great that you guys have a proper output stage, and quality power supply, as these are the two biggest factors in SQ, after what type of DAC chip is used. And having a quality spdif implementation is fantastic.
 Im glad you are purists who dump the idea of having wall warts or volume pots e.t.c


----------



## Kremer930

Hi Jason.  How is the Bifrost production going?  Did you get the transformer supplier sorted?  Almost only 1 month to go until shipping....hmmm ground hog day?  This comment seems strangely familiar.


----------



## Jason Stoddard

Hey all,
   
  Yep, looks like production is sorted on Bifrost, so barring any other surprises, September 30 is solid.
   
  As far as details on the other DACs, yes, we're keeping things close to our chest--not for any cloak and dagger reasons, but because we're still prototyping/testing/optimizing. Let's see what else I can clear up, though.
   
  All DACs: will use the same optional USB card, and all will have upgrade paths--see next comment.
  Midrange balanced DAC: we're still in the middle of testing, so I can't confirm which D-A converter we're using. 
  Statement DAC: we won't be using a D-A converter used by any other manufacturer of audio gear. 
   
  Hope this helps a bit.
   
  All the best,
  Jason


----------



## dyl1dyl

Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> Hey all,
> 
> Yep, looks like production is sorted on Bifrost, so barring any other surprises, September 30 is solid.
> 
> ...


 

 Cool, absolutely cant wait for the statement DAC. Do you guys have the names yet for the balanced and statement DACs? I'm pretty sure the guys here at headfi have lots of great ideas for names.


----------



## olor1n

Jason, if the usb adapter isn't chosen initially, can it be purchased separately and slotted into the dac after purchase?
   
  Also, what's the likelihood of the other dacs having more than one set of rca outputs? Will we see either this year?


----------



## blankdisc

Hi Jason,
  Will both future DACs be released at the same time? or the Statement DAC will come a few months after the balanced one?
  how about price point of those two DACs? have a rough estimate you could share with us? 
   
  Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> Hey all,
> 
> Yep, looks like production is sorted on Bifrost, so barring any other surprises, September 30 is solid.
> 
> ...


----------



## Maxvla

The rough estimates have been given at approximately $600-700 and $1000. Remember these are (very) rough estimates.


----------



## judmarc

Really looking forward to listening to the Bifrost.  Would love to go for the statement DAC, but:
   
  - It's my first new DAC in 20 years (last one was a Mike Moffatt design as well) and I just can't hang on until March.  
   
  - My wife is an avid HGTV watcher, so guess where she'd rather our money went?  $1000 is probably a bit much to go for all at once in the context of current ongoing home improvements and financing thereof.  An eventual trade-up of the Bifrost on the statement DAC might be more do-able, but I can't see the usefulness for Schiit of that kind of trade-up program.  (Yes, they might sell more statement DACs, but why saddle themselves with a bunch of used Bifrosts in order to do it?  And my personal finances aside, it's impossible to argue that's not a *very* reasonable price point for a high end DAC.)


----------



## ninjikiran

Long as she designs a good listening room for you I guess its all good.
  
  Quote: 





judmarc said:


> Really looking forward to listening to the Bifrost.  Would love to go for the statement DAC, but:
> 
> - It's my first new DAC in 20 years (last one was a Mike Moffatt design as well) and I just can't hang on until March.
> 
> - My wife is an avid HGTV watcher, so guess where she'd rather our money went?  $1000 is probably a bit much to go for all at once in the context of current ongoing home improvements and financing thereof.  An eventual trade-up of the Bifrost on the statement DAC might be more do-able, but I can't see the usefulness for Schiit of that kind of trade-up program.  (Yes, they might sell more statement DACs, but why saddle themselves with a bunch of used Bifrosts in order to do it?  And my personal finances aside, it's impossible to argue that's not a *very* reasonable price point for a high end DAC.)


----------



## judmarc

Quote: 





ninjikiran said:


> Long as she designs a good listening room for you I guess its all good.


 


 Heh, guess who the designer is in the family?  Unfortunately I've got no artistic talent, but I did get hold of some software that let me "construct" our house on the computer.  It's a lot cheaper to move things around on a screen than while they're actually being built.  And I also had the advantage of having an architect friend to whom I'd fax screenshots and ask, "Have I made the house fall down yet?"
   
  So the listening room's in place (cleverly disguised as the family room where my wife watches TV and movies), and everyone gets to enjoy the comfy sofa and good sound.  In fact the TV and the blu-ray player have toslink outputs, so if the Bifrost improves the sound of movies that will definitely help with the Wife Acceptance Factor.  (I'll have to put on something with Russell Crowe, she loves the guy.)


----------



## runswithaliens

I think I read through much of what is posted at Head-fi about these forthcomming DACs from Schiit. There are lots of details about the technology, but I don't think I've seen a single word about it's intended sound signiture or Schiit's philosophy behind what sound they are going for.  For example, I wonder what is the intention with this first DAC; is Schiit going for a  revealing analytical studio engineer type sound or something more uh cozy and analog (sorry I don't know the correct audiophile terms maybe)?
   
  Is Schiit sending out any early review samples to any of the fine reviewers here so that reviews will get out there before Sept. 30th? Otherwise I guess we will have to wait for the reviews as they trickle in after release.


----------



## grokit

My preference ATM is for a musical-sounding DAC paired with analytical-sounding tubes.


----------



## HammerSandwich

Quote: 





judmarc said:


> - It's my first new DAC in 20 years (last one was a Mike Moffatt design as well) and I just can't hang on until March.  :


 
   
  You've waited 20 years, and another few months will kill you???


----------



## Argo Duck

Yes, Skylab will be posting a review.
  
  Quote: 





> Is Schiit sending out any early review samples to any of the fine reviewers here <snip>


----------



## Hero Kid

Quote: 





argo duck said:


> Yes, Skylab will be posting a review.


 

 Whilst this is true I am yet to see any indication Robert (Skylab) will recive a Bifrost before the rest of us...


----------



## judmarc

Quote: 





hammersandwich said:


> You've waited 20 years, and another few months will kill you???


 


  Don't know if you're old enough to've watched Popeye cartoons, but: "That's all I can stands, and I can't stands no more!"


----------



## 45longcolt

Quote: 





grokit said:


> My preference ATM is for a musical-sounding DAC paired with analytical-sounding tubes.


 


 "Analytical-sounding tubes" (!?!) Is that not a contradiction in terms? Do you also prefer alcohol-free scotch, scratchy silk sheets and non-dairy ice cream (which is, for unguessable reasons, actually available)?  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  Of course, some would opine that "musical-sounding DAC is another oxymoron...


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





45longcolt said:


> "Analytical-sounding tubes" (!?!) Is that not a contradiction in terms? Do you also prefer alcohol-free scotch, scratchy silk sheets and non-dairy ice cream (which is, for unguessable reasons, actually available)?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 How about 'intelligent post'.  Where does that fit in?


----------



## kayvaanshrike

Hey guys, big big news! I have just got a heads up on the upcoming schiit products, no specific details, just a rough sketch. Basically, we will be seeing a balanced ss amp and balanced DAC by end of this year and a balanced hybrid amp and flagship balanced DAC by q1 next year. Furthermore, it seems the two balanced DACs will have options for the exact same usb card as the bifrost (dissapointing to me). More details include the fact that the cheaper balanced DAC will use existing high-end DAC chips (Sabre, Wolfsson, etc.) but the flagship will be completely unique, featuring never seen before chips (multiple). Furthermore, the flagship DAC is being designed to completely outperform the competition.  Including DACs that are many times more expensive (W4S, Weiss, Zodiac Gold, Berkeley, etc).It is actually being designed to even outstrip things like the dCS and Mark Levinson.  It is also going to be very special in that almost all the components will be in-house Schiit designed and produced parts. The casing for the two new amps and DACs will be matching. (as in mid-range amp and dac will be the same, flagships will be the same) They will both be significantly larger than the current products. (Lyr, Bifrost) Finally, suggested pricing could be 649-749 for the mid-range DAC and 949-1049 for the flagship DAC. The amps will probably be slightly cheaper respectively.
  Hope you guys found this info interesting, I personally cannot wait for the balanced amps and especially the flagship DAC.


----------



## olor1n

Quote: 





kayvaanshrike said:


> Hey guys, big big news! I have just got a heads up on the upcoming schiit products, no specific details, just a rough sketch. Basically, we will be seeing a balanced ss amp and balanced DAC by end of this year and a balanced hybrid amp and flagship balanced DAC by q1 next year. Furthermore, it seems the two balanced DACs will have options for the exact same usb card as the bifrost (dissapointing to me). More details include the fact that the cheaper balanced DAC will use existing high-end DAC chips (Sabre, Wolfsson, etc.) but the flagship will be completely unique, featuring never seen before chips (multiple). Furthermore, the flagship DAC is being designed to completely outperform the competition.  Including DACs that are many times more expensive (W4S, Weiss, Zodiac Gold, Berkeley, etc).It is actually being designed to even outstrip things like the dCS and Mark Levinson.  It is also going to be very special in that almost all the components will be in-house Schiit designed and produced parts. The casing for the two new amps and DACs will be matching. (as in mid-range amp and dac will be the same, flagships will be the same) They will both be significantly larger than the current products. (Lyr, Bifrost) Finally, suggested pricing could be 649-749 for the mid-range DAC and 949-1049 for the flagship DAC. The amps will probably be slightly cheaper respectively.
> Hope you guys found this info interesting, I personally cannot wait for the balanced amps and especially the flagship DAC.


 

 Quoting for posterity. Where did you get those nuggets from?


----------



## WobblyGoblin

Quote: 





olor1n said:


> Quoting for posterity. Where did you get those nuggets from?


 


  I think he got it from reading the rest of the thread? 
   
  Is there anything in there that's even new compared to what we'd already been told?


----------



## khaos974

kayvaanshrike said:


> Hey guys, big big news! I have just got a heads up on the upcoming schiit products, no specific details, just a rough sketch. Basically, we will be seeing a balanced ss amp and balanced DAC by end of this year and a balanced hybrid amp and flagship balanced DAC by q1 next year. Furthermore, it seems the two balanced DACs will have options for the exact same usb card as the bifrost (dissapointing to me). More details include the fact that the cheaper balanced DAC will use existing high-end DAC chips (Sabre, Wolfsson, etc.) but the flagship will be completely unique, featuring never seen before chips (multiple). Furthermore, the flagship DAC is being designed to completely outperform the competition.  Including DACs that are many times more expensive (W4S, Weiss, Zodiac Gold, Berkeley, etc).It is actually being designed to even outstrip things like the dCS and Mark Levinson.  It is also going to be very special in that almost all the components will be in-house Schiit designed and produced parts. The casing for the two new amps and DACs will be matching. (as in mid-range amp and dac will be the same, flagships will be the same) They will both be significantly larger than the current products. (Lyr, Bifrost) Finally, suggested pricing could be 649-749 for the mid-range DAC and 949-1049 for the flagship DAC. The amps will probably be slightly cheaper respectively.
> Hope you guys found this info interesting, I personally cannot wait for the balanced amps and especially the flagship DAC.




Yep, they are going to use totally Schitt parts for the statement DAC.


----------



## kr0gg

Quote: 





kayvaanshrike said:


> flagship will be completely unique, featuring never seen before chips (multiple). .... almost all the components will be in-house Schiit designed and produced parts.


 

 i like Schiit's communication style, but not the part when they're not sincere - for example, the statement about "no-opamp" design of Bifrost, which is not true, of course, because there ARE opamps there. they're integrated in Bifrost's DAC chip)
   
  what we see here?
  > "almost all the components will be in-house Schiit designed and produced parts."
  yeah, sure... in no way will i believe that Schiit will build their own factory to produce IC's.
  and that makes the part with "never seen before" a lie too - if these guys are not producing them by themselves, that means that we've actually seen those used before.


----------



## blankdisc

in the past Jason has been very open and good at releasing product information to everyone here when he thinks they are ready. I am not saying that anyone is lying here, but it's just very unusual of Schitt to release information like that. On the other hand, nothing kayvaanshrike said here is really news. We all know that already.


----------



## Jason Stoddard

Quote: 





kayvaanshrike said:


> Hey guys, big big news! I have just got a heads up on the upcoming schiit products, no specific details, just a rough sketch. Basically, we will be seeing a balanced ss amp and balanced DAC by end of this year and a balanced hybrid amp and flagship balanced DAC by q1 next year. Furthermore, it seems the two balanced DACs will have options for the exact same usb card as the bifrost (dissapointing to me). More details include the fact that the cheaper balanced DAC will use existing high-end DAC chips (Sabre, Wolfsson, etc.) but the flagship will be completely unique, featuring never seen before chips (multiple). Furthermore, the flagship DAC is being designed to completely outperform the competition.  Including DACs that are many times more expensive (W4S, Weiss, Zodiac Gold, Berkeley, etc).It is actually being designed to even outstrip things like the dCS and Mark Levinson.  It is also going to be very special in that almost all the components will be in-house Schiit designed and produced parts. The casing for the two new amps and DACs will be matching. (as in mid-range amp and dac will be the same, flagships will be the same) They will both be significantly larger than the current products. (Lyr, Bifrost) Finally, suggested pricing could be 649-749 for the mid-range DAC and 949-1049 for the flagship DAC. The amps will probably be slightly cheaper respectively.
> Hope you guys found this info interesting, I personally cannot wait for the balanced amps and especially the flagship DAC.


 
   
  This is an interesting mix of fact and conjecture. Until we announce a pre-order, nothing is set in stone. Pricing, especially for the statement DAC and amp, can change as we discover what we need to do to refine the performance level of our products.
   
  What's true:
   
  1. We are now planning a balanced DAC/balanced amp pair before the end of the year, both solid state. 
  2. We are planning the statement DAC/statement amp to be shipped in Q1 2012, with the amp being hybrid. The statement DAC will, yes, use unique tech not available elsewhere. 
  3. All of them will use the same USB card. The performance of the current one is very good (for USB). You can always swap the card for another standard if it appears, as well.


----------



## blankdisc

Thanks, Jason.  you are the best. just a quick question. when you said "a balanced DAC/balanced amp pair", i assume that the DAC and Amp are two separate products, and can be purchased separately, right?
  
  Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> This is an interesting mix of fact and conjecture. Until we announce a pre-order, nothing is set in stone. Pricing, especially for the statement DAC and amp, can change as we discover what we need to do to refine the performance level of our products.
> 
> What's true:
> 
> ...


----------



## Jason Stoddard

Quote: 





blankdisc said:


> Thanks, Jason.  you are the best. just a quick question. when you said "a balanced DAC/balanced amp pair", i assume that the DAC and Amp are two separate products, and can be purchased separately, right?


 

 Yep, two separate products--they just happen to be in the same size chassis, so they make a nice pair. 
   
  I'm sorry about all the cloak and dagger stuff, guys, but there are two reasons for it:
   
  1. These products are still in development. *We* don't even know exactly what they'll be yet.
  2. All of the upcoming stuff is "one and only" product. As in, it does stuff, or uses technology, you won't see elsewhere, at any price.* That's a hallmark you'll see going forward. If we can't say, "The only...", we're not going to bother making that product. We're not here to "slot in" with the rest, or pursue incremental changes. We're here to shake things up. 
   
  *Yes, even the midrange product. Nobody is using our balanced amp topology, and nobody is using some of the stuff we're going to be doing on the midrange DAC. I'd prefer to keep the competitors guessing until we announce.


----------



## Yikes

*Tease.*


----------



## judmarc

Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> We are planning the statement DAC/statement amp to be shipped in Q1 2012, with the amp being hybrid. The statement DAC will, yes, use unique tech not available elsewhere.


 
   
  Sure hope the market for lightly used Bifrosts is as good as I think it'll be (or there's a trade-up program, but again, I can't see what would be in it for Schiit), 'cause I have a feeling I'm not going to be able to resist the temptation to go for the statement DAC.


----------



## MarioImpemba

Personally, would have more use for a pre-amp function with a quality VC than balanced operation; also, generally something I would expect in a >$1k DAC. Wishful thinking...


----------



## marcelo61

Quote: 





marioimpemba said:


> Personally, would have more use for a pre-amp function with a quality VC than balanced operation; also, generally something I would expect in a >$1k DAC. Wishful thinking...


 


   
  x2 here,>2k for the dac/amp combo is within my shooting range.


----------



## zzffnn

would like to see a dac with pre-amp function too


----------



## Audio_newb

I too would like to see volume control on the statement model, but I can easily see why they wouldn't.  Once you start down that road it's not unreasonable to want at least one analog input and a remote control.  That's a substantial amount of added complexity.  If they really are attempting to stay within the ballpark of $1K, which is essentially unheard of implementing non off the shelf parts, that might be challenging.  There is something to be said for keeping it simple and focusing on sound quality.  I assume when we say balanced amp we are talking head amp here?  Any thoughts on an amp for the speaker set?


----------



## dyl1dyl

Hey Jason,
   
  Do you have any more info on the two upcoming amps as I realize that info on the two has been somewhat sparse compared to the upcoming DACs. I'm interested in getting one of the two to pair with the Statement DAC.
   
  Regards


----------



## dcmartinpc

I have pre-ordered the Bifrost also! But... I will be using it in a 2-channel traditional rig and not for my headphone rig. The question I have is this. I would say it is pretty safe to assume at this point in time that everything for the Bifrost is finalized since it is in production and should be shipping in the next couple weeks. In light of that, Jason, would it be possible to get a picture or diagram of the back of the unit?

Thanks!

Don


----------



## cracky

if someone can confirm it can be used under Unbuntu 10 or 11 with USB connection, i will order it immediately!


----------



## livewire

Watchu been smokin cracky?
  Buried somewhere in the last 49 pages, I believe they said that they dont do unbuntu.
   
  Go back and read post #462. Are ya USB 2.0 compliant? If so, you may be in luck.


----------



## pseudohippy

Oh where, oh where has my bifrost gone, oh where, oh where can it be?
   
  J/k of course, but some of you may get the reference lol. Ive been ignoring headfi a lot more and more specifically this thread while waiting for my prized bifrost. Didnt get any shipping info on it so I checked the thread only to find it wont ship until the end of the month. No biggie but darn hehe. I sure am looking forward to it.
   
[size=12.0pt]Thanks Jason for all the info you give us, its far more than most of the competition. Read up entirely on the thread today and you are absolutely on top of everything.[/size]


----------



## cracky

I have actually emailed them sometime ago, but they didn't have a definite answer, and was hoping they have updated the status of it by now. But it's ok, I guess they are too busy with their projects.
   
  Ubuntu with a RT kernel sounds so much better than windows/mac/hackintosh, and thus really do hope some head-fi users can confirm it would work under ubuntu/voyage without any glitches when it is released. as you guys know, linux is quite annoying to mess with. 
   
  thanks
   
  Quote: 





livewire said:


> Watchu been smokin cracky?
> Buried somewhere in the last 49 pages, I believe they said that they dont do unbuntu.
> 
> Go back and read post #462. Are ya USB 2.0 compliant? If so, you may be in luck.


----------



## grmnasasin0227

Quote: 





cracky said:


> I have actually emailed them sometime ago, but they didn't have a definite answer, and was hoping they have updated the status of it by now. But it's ok, I guess they are too busy with their projects.
> 
> Ubuntu with a RT kernel sounds so much better than windows/mac/hackintosh, and thus really do hope some head-fi users can confirm it would work under ubuntu/voyage without any glitches when it is released. as you guys know, linux is quite annoying to mess with.
> 
> thanks


 
  I hope I'm not opening a can of worms, but Linux has many distros that are VERY user-friendly. It's kind of a shame that the name is synonymous with "difficult to use" when in fact it's now more accessible than ever.


----------



## Butler

I've asked in the amp forum and have had very little feedback either way on this...

I'm getting a bifrost to be my next headphone DAC/ soundcard. I'd really like to get into tubes and would also really like a schiit amp to match the DAC. As you can see from my signature, nearly all my cans are Audio-Technica's. A modded pair of W5000's, PRO5MK2's, and ESW9's. I understand this amp isn't reccomended for headphones that are under 32 ohms. All of my AT cans, last time I checked are somewhat higher impedance than that. Should I be all set with the Valhalla? I've read that it really mellows out some harsh trebles, and this would be great because the W5000's are guilty of that! … Or should I play it safe and go with the Asgard?


----------



## grokit

If it were me and auditions are impractical I would take the plunge and try the Valhalla. Worst case you could sell or return it to fund an Asgard.


----------



## sling5s

I've had several ATs, see my profile and didn't like them with tubes.  I would get the Asgard, as they are a good match for low impedance and from what I hear, on the warmer side.   Treble is slightly recessed. Even Jason, at Schiit recommends the Asgard with Grados so I'm sure it will be a good match for ATs.


----------



## digitaldissent

I should mention I have the Valhalla and slightly modded pair of the MS2i and I quite enjoy it. And like grokit said, Schitt has a 15 day return policy so you can "demo at home" as they put it


----------



## Butler

It seems that people are so split down the middle about this! Hopefully I can get some more feedback.

The MS2i is EXACTLY 32 ohms and you don't have any issues on your valhalla? That's pretty encouraging for my case! Do you find it warmer? Does it tame some of those harsher trebles that Grados (and some AT phones) are known to have? Someone had quoted Jason on this thread and said that they would "struggle". It's good to hear that the asgard is a warmer amp with a recessed treble, because if the Valhalla doesn't work out it sounds like it will be a great pairing with the W5000's.


----------



## pseudohippy

Quote: 





digitaldissent said:


> I should mention I have the Valhalla and slightly modded pair of the MS2i and I quite enjoy it. And like grokit said, Schitt has a 15 day return policy so you can "demo at home" as they put it


 


  I think you have to pay 5% to send it back though. But yeah, should still be worth it to get to test it out a bit.
   
  What did you do to your MS2i? I have a pair also. Perhaps if you have the time you could PM me a link to your or the post about it or just tell me what you did. Dont want to throw this thread off its tracks.


----------



## rrahman

Does anyone know if the upcoming mid level DAC will have balanced and single ended output or only balanced output?
   
  I think the "statement" dac is supposed to have both right?
   
  A single ended and balanced output would be very useful to me...


----------



## blankdisc

both. quoting Jason from another thread:
   
  "We'll have both 4-pin, 3-pin, and single-ended phono outs on both amps."
  
  Quote: 





rrahman said:


> Does anyone know if the upcoming mid level DAC will have balanced and single ended output or only balanced output?
> 
> I think the "statement" dac is supposed to have both right?
> 
> A single ended and balanced output would be very useful to me...


----------



## Hero Kid

For anyone interested I have made a new thread for Schiit fans...
   
New Balanced Schiit Amps? The information and anticipation thread.  
	

   
   
  EDIT: I might also work on splitting the mid-teir DAC comments from the statement DAC comments. Will hopefully tackle that tomorrow night.
  Enjoy.


----------



## Kremer930

Thanks Hero. Will be good to have separate feedback and reviews on the different models. Will you combine the mid and statement amps and then do the same on the dacs or will you create four different threads?

The intermediate dac and amp should be formally announced soon in order to be preordered and delivered this year. Exciting stuff. 

I will find it hard to resist the mid gear whilst awaiting the statement rig.


----------



## rrahman

Yea i read that, but I was asking about the DACs.  I suppose it wouldn't make sense to have a balanced dac => single/balanced amp, but whatever...
   
  Nonetheless I emailed and Jason responded...
   
  "Yep, the next DAC will have both single-ended and balanced outputs, not just the statement model.

 All the best,

 Jason Stoddard
 Co-Founder"
   
  Hopefully, that wasn't privileged information or anything... lol
  Quote: 





blankdisc said:


> both. quoting Jason from another thread:
> 
> "We'll have both 4-pin, 3-pin, and single-ended phono outs on both amps."


----------



## Kremer930

Three weeks and counting until shipping ...beep... Beep ...beep ...


----------



## Misterrogers

x2


----------



## Kremer930

I wonder if Skylab will have his Bifrost a couple of weeks before release to enable a review to come out soon after shipping date.


----------



## dyl1dyl

Quote: 





kremer930 said:


> I wonder if Skylab will have his Bifrost a couple of weeks before release to enable a review to come out soon after shipping date.


 


  That would be nice. But I'm gonna wait for the Statement stuff anyway. Will be really happy if the Bifrost sounds great, then the statement stuff will sound unbelievable.


----------



## pseudohippy

I still dont understand this DAC stuff. although Im looking forward to mine. But I hope it sounds like nothing and just converts the music so it sounds like its supposed to, ya know, how it was originally mastered. If it colors the music, either cold or warm or anything else other than it is originally Ill be disappointed. To me a DAC that colors the sound is just plain broken. But yeah, countdown is on baby.


----------



## Kremer930

I think that dacs should be neutral too but they need to retrieve all of the information from the original recording. From my limited experience it comes down to speed of attack on the leading edge of notes(slam), definition and cleaness of sound and imagining space and air between instruments.


----------



## Corbet

Is there ANY way to get quality sound out of a laptop that doesn't have optical out? It's a shame USB can't compare to SPDIF


----------



## obazavil

Quote: 





corbet said:


> Is there ANY way to get quality sound out of a laptop that doesn't have optical out? It's a shame USB can't compare to SPDIF


 


  I'm in the same ship...
   
  I wonder how this may work:
  1) http://us.store.creative.com/Creative-Sound-Blaster-XFi-Surround-5.1/M/B0044DEDCA.htm
   
    Is a USB card -> use its toslink -> feed the DAC
   
  2) http://us.outletstore.creative.com/Refurbished-Sound-Blaster-XFi-Xtreme-Audio/M/B002ZAYHD4.htm
  Is a card express, with digital output


----------



## MrScary

obazavil said:


> I'm in the same ship...
> 
> I wonder how this may work:
> 1) http://us.store.creative.com/Creative-Sound-Blaster-XFi-Surround-5.1/M/B0044DEDCA.htm
> ...




Get either an HTomega claro + or an M-audio 192 forget that creative junk


----------



## obazavil

Quote: 





mrscary said:


> Get either an HTomega claro + or an M-audio 192 forget that creative junk


 


  And how I insert that in my laptop?


----------



## ninjikiran

Just use the USB output, its not as inferior as some might make it out to be.  Going from the Halide Bridge to the ESI Juli@ was not a difference imo, the Juli@ supports more output formats though.  But anything with a driver sometimes suffers, which I learned from using any spdif output of a sound card, where any usb implementation has been fairly clean in terms of once in a blue moon issues.  The older 16-bit interfaces on some cheaper dacs do truly suck though.


----------



## Corbet

Has Schiit ever talked about what headphones the use to test their DACs/Amps?


----------



## sampson_smith

Yes, they have. Do check the Schiit site for more tantalizing info!


----------



## obazavil

sampson_smith said:


> Yes, they have. Do check the Schiit site for more tantalizing info!




they use dr dre!


----------



## Butler

sling5s said:


> I've had several ATs, see my profile and didn't like them with tubes.  I would get the Asgard, as they are a good match for low impedance and from what I hear, on the warmer side.   Treble is slightly recessed. Even Jason, at Schiit recommends the Asgard with Grados so I'm sure it will be a good match for ATs.




I found a great 6moons audio review where they use W5k's and also high impedance cans on the Valhalla, and suprisingly they had this to say:



> On headphones from my arsenal which post break-in seemed nicely matched, I'd single out the audio-technica W5000, Grado PS-1000 and beyerdynamic T1 in the top tier followed by the Sennheiser HD800 and AKG K-702 on the next. With a 'potentized' iPod for more gain than its analog output provides alone, all could play unreasonably loud. My hierarchy simply puts on the first rung those designs whose innate voicing is on the fuller richer side.For those with headphones like the W5000 and PS-1000 which can go for either Schiit unconditionally, how to choose? For the purest treble, Asgard. For maximal control in the bass, Asgard. For fluidity on poetic long-decay stuff and the most three-D staging, Valhalla. For greatest vocal sex, Valhalla. For 'lesser' sources, Asgard again. These aren't day and night differences but mere shades of gray.




-Via http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/schiit/8.html


----------



## Viper2005

corbet said:


> Is there ANY way to get quality sound out of a laptop that doesn't have optical out? It's a shame USB can't compare to SPDIF




If you have a MacBook or MacBook pro then you already have a built in optical out. Its located inside the headphone jack. You need to use an optical cable with a mini toslink end.


----------



## Maverickmonk

With all of the different expresscard plug ins available today, it's a shame there isn't a simple expresscard34 -> digital audio out card floating around out there. You can get  expresscard plug-ins for old serial and parallel ports, for hooking up 3 e-sata ports at once, or multiple usb-3 ports (When there is currently almost no usb3 hardware floating around), but no digital audio out? Someone cut us PC users a break. I couldn't afford to drop 1700 on my school computer (especially since hardware wise, my Sony out-performed it. I won't argue software wise because some people like mac, and some like windows, different strokes for different folks), but it would be lovely to have a simple, affordable solution.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





viper2005 said:


> If you have a MacBook or MacBook pro then you already have a built in optical out. Its located inside the headphone jack. You need to use an optical cable with a mini toslink end.


 

 All Macs have optical audio output, not just the laptops.


----------



## estreeter

Quote: 





grokit said:


> All Macs have optical audio output, not just the laptops.


 

 My Asus netbook had it and that tells me that it cant be an expensive addition to the mobo - it should be standard.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





grokit said:


> All Macs have optical audio output, not just the laptops.


 


  MacBook Air does not have optical out.


----------



## livewire

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> MacBook Air does not have optical out.


 

 Correctomundo! What a blatant rip-off.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> MacBook Air does not have optical out.


 

 Thanks, I forgot how neutered that thing is; just a single USB port, analog audio out, and the new micro-DVI port. Apparently they even dropped the Kensington cable lock slot.

   
   
  Quote: 





livewire said:


> Correctomundo! What a blatant rip-off.


 

 While Toslink is ubiquitous, there are a couple of other digital audio options for the Air: 
   
  "The miniDisplayPort can carry digital audio, which isn't the case with some other older Macs with MiniDisplayPort.  Also in the System Profiler you'll find in 'Audio' that HDMI can be used for audio."


----------



## leesure

Quote: 





grokit said:


> Thanks, I forgot how neutered that thing is; just a single USB port, analog audio out, and the new micro-DVI port. Apparently they even dropped the Kensington cable lock slot.


 
   

   
   
  Actually, it's now 2 USB's and a Thunderbolt port. 
   
  http://www.apple.com/macbookair/specs.html


----------



## Maverickmonk

Ah! I didn't even think about that, getting an HDMI -> Toslink or Coax connector! This should work with windows 7 too I presume. The question is: would HDMI audio be any better than USB?
  Quote: 





grokit said:


> "The miniDisplayPort can carry digital audio, which isn't the case with some other older Macs with MiniDisplayPort.  Also in the System Profiler you'll find in 'Audio' that HDMI can be used for audio."


----------



## xxhaxx

Just wondering but does spdif equal optical and coaxial or just optical alone?


----------



## Maxvla

Both


----------



## Zorlac

Why not get a really nice USB --> S/PDIF convertor??
   
  For example:
   
http://www.audiophilleo.com/


----------



## obazavil

Quote: 





zorlac said:


> Why not get a really nice USB --> S/PDIF convertor??
> 
> For example:
> 
> http://www.audiophilleo.com/


 

 Heh... USD $500+ ? I rather pay the $100 extra for the bifrost... I was thinking something much much much cheaper


----------



## Anaxilus

I'm really not sure I buy into the whole USB>SPDIF converter idea.  How does that remove any potential USB limitations?  
   
  Also, for the record, I've heard optical implementations from a Macbook, Thinkpad using an Expresscard, my PC, UHA6S and a PWD.  They do not all sound the same.  I'll refrain from ranking anything to avoid a flamewar but as with anything IME the implemetation is what really matters.


----------



## uelover

I had tried many ways and the best sound is still via a good USB/SPDIF converter. The SQ from the optical output of my Macbook Pro is worse than direct USB input onto my DAC (the USB implementation on my DAC is nothing fantastic either).

 I will think that adding the USD100 for an USB module onto Bifrost, even if the USB module cannot compete with a good USB/SPDIF converter, will represent good value for money for those using computer audio. For the best of the best, high-end USB/SPDIF converter will still be the way to go in the near future.


----------



## Corbet

Do you know of any good HDMI -> TOSlink/Coax or even Mini Display Port to TOSlink/Coax?
  
  Quote: 





maverickmonk said:


> Ah! I didn't even think about that, getting an HDMI -> Toslink or Coax connector! This should work with windows 7 too I presume. The question is: would HDMI audio be any better than USB?


----------



## Zorlac

EVO
   
http://www.m2tech.biz/evo.html
   
  And the new EVO PSU
   
http://www.m2tech.biz/evo_supply.html


----------



## internethandle

I was a bit surprised to see Schiit recommend using a mobo's SPDIF-out. It was my understanding that, from a "bit-perfect" perspective, using the SPDIF-out on most motherboards would sort of muddy that possibility, given that, to my understanding, the built-in audio processor (e.g. Realtek) on the mobo handled the output of the SPDIF-out, which you're usually trying to bypass when using WASAPI or ASIO. I realize that Schiit is using a fairly advanced SPDIF receiver section, but again wouldn't most SPDIF out put the mobo's audio chip more prominently in the signal path than if you used USB?
   
  Also, to echo what someone just posted, it seems like (subjectively) a lot of people are finding the best SQ to come from USB -> SPDIF converters rather than just USB -> DAC directly or SPDIF -> DAC directly. The Stello U3 comes to mind as getting lots of accolades recently, or even something like the Musical Fidelity V-Link. Doesn't make a tremendous amount of sense, but there you have it.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





leesure said:


> Actually, it's now 2 USB's and a Thunderbolt port.


 
   

  Argh! They keep changing 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  It's good to see that second USB port though 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
   
  Quote: 





anaxilus said:


> I'm really not sure I buy into the whole USB>SPDIF converter idea.  How does that remove any potential USB limitations?


 
   
  Mainly by changing the clock from internal/adaptive to external/asynch, but it doesn't improve all DACs, just the ones with poor or no USB implementation.
   
   
  Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *internethandle* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Also, to echo what someone just posted, it seems like (subjectively) a lot of people are finding the best SQ to come from USB -> SPDIF converters rather than just USB -> DAC directly or SPDIF -> DAC directly.


 

 That's my (subjective 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) experience as well.


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





grokit said:


>


 
   
  Mainly by changing the clock from internal/adaptive to external/asynch, but it doesn't improve all DACs, just the ones with poor or no USB implementation.
   
   
  So basically there are only two real situations where the USB>SPDIF converter makes any sense.
   
  1-You don't have a DAC with USB input, asynchronous or otherwise.
  2-You don't want a DAC with USB input, asynchronous or otherwise.


----------



## uelover

Quote: 





anaxilus said:


> Mainly by changing the clock from internal/adaptive to external/asynch, but it doesn't improve all DACs, just the ones with poor or no USB implementation.
> 
> So basically there are only two real situations where the USB>SPDIF converter makes any sense.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Not true.

 Not all DACs with async USB input performs the same, just like not all USB/SPDIF converters that sports async will work equally well.
   
  There are just too many other factors such as the implementation, the clock used, the cleanness of the power and etc.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





anaxilus said:


> So basically there are only two real situations where the USB>SPDIF converter makes any sense.
> 
> 1-You don't have a DAC with USB input, asynchronous or otherwise.
> 2-You don't want a DAC with USB input, asynchronous or otherwise.


 

 3-The USB input on your DAC could be improved upon (my situation).
  4-You are using your soundcard's spdif output, which could be improved upon.


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





grokit said:


> 3-The USB input on your DAC could be improved upon (my situation).
> 4-You are using your soundcard's spdif output, which could be improved upon.


 

 Well 3 was meant to fall into 1 but I worded it ambiguously.  
   
  So a $300 USB/SPDIF converter is better than a better $300 card w/ better outputs?  I think it's about time to get digital in the sound science forum.  It seems there is way too much taken on faith or misunderstanding about the binary world, myself included.  This is really unacceptable and is either overdue or needs to be rehashed.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





anaxilus said:


> Well 3 was meant to fall into 1 but I worded it ambiguously.
> 
> So a $300 USB/SPDIF converter is better than a better $300 card w/ better outputs?  I think it's about time to get digital in the sound science forum.  It seems there is way too much taken on faith or misunderstanding about the binary world, myself included.  This is really unacceptable and is either overdue or needs to be rehashed.


 

 I don't know the answer to that, actually I don't even think that's a fair question as there are way too many variables involved. $300 is a lot for a soundcard, but is pretty middle of the road for an external converter.
   
  But yeah, if my soundcard sucked I would look into getting an external converter rather than upgrading my soundcard but that's just me.
   
   
  It's not a "direct hit" on this subject, but here's a pretty good (imo) current thread on digital audio in the SS forum: 
   
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/571259/hi-rez-another-myth-exploded


----------



## Butler

internethandle said:


> I was a bit surprised to see Schiit recommend using a mobo's SPDIF-out. It was my understanding that, from a "bit-perfect" perspective, using the SPDIF-out on most motherboards would sort of muddy that possibility, given that, to my understanding, the built-in audio processor (e.g. Realtek) on the mobo handled the output of the SPDIF-out, which you're usually trying to bypass when using WASAPI or ASIO. I realize that Schiit is using a fairly advanced SPDIF receiver section, but again wouldn't most SPDIF out put the mobo's audio chip more prominently in the signal path than if you used USB?




Where did you see this recommendation?


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





grokit said:


> It's not a "direct hit" on this subject, but here's a pretty good (imo) current thread on digital audio in the SS forum:
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/571259/hi-rez-another-myth-exploded


 

 Yeah, I'm post #3.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  I think there needs to be a digital compendium.  Digital is orders of magnitude more complex and varied than Analog yet everyone runs around shouting "It's just 1's and 0's!"


----------



## obazavil

I think Schiit said their USB module is as good as USB can get. So we can just play safe and get the USB module instead of doing magic 
   
  But those Creative x-Fi (i know are not in the same league) sounds too tempting with optical and 5.1 output


----------



## MarioImpemba

Quote: 





butler said:


> Where did you see this recommendation?


 

 "If you have a Windows desktop, most decent sound cards and many motherboards have SPDIF coax or optical." http://schiit.com/schiit-faq/about-bifrost/
   
  Even with realtek mobo, shouldn't you still be able to use the out with KS, bypassing any onboard sbd management?
  
  Quote: 





anaxilus said:


> Yeah, I'm post #3.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Analog is just sine waves!


----------



## Butler

I plan on using the the bifrost as a sound card in itself and doing the optical straight off the opitical from an on board port on the motherboard- anything lost in quality should be negligible and unnoticeable… hopefully.


----------



## sridhar3

Quote:


zorlac said:


> Why not get a really nice USB --> S/PDIF convertor??
> 
> For example:
> 
> http://www.audiophilleo.com/


 

 I can attest to the quality of the Audiophilleo1.  I think Currawong has one as well.  I'm running it out of a Vaunix Lab Brick USB hub.
   
  I was going from laptop to Cary Xciter DAC USB port prior to getting the AP1.  I find it to be a significant enough upgrade to warrant the cost.  YMMV.


----------



## jumper

Quote: 





butler said:


> I plan on using the the bifrost as a sound card in itself and doing the optical straight off the opitical from an on board port on the motherboard- anything lost in quality should be negligible and unnoticeable… hopefully.


 


  This is the same situation I'm in as well.  Shiit is clearly saying that they recommend SPDIF (without being converted from USB) over any USB implementation.  That leaves the motherboard's Realtek optical out or using a sound card.  In the case of the sound card you're most likely paying for one with DAC's you'll never use.  We would need a high end 'SPDIF out' only card.  And this is still based on Shiit's premise that SPDIF is preferred for the Bifrost over a USB->SPDIF converter.  I just don't know what interface to go with now


----------



## Misterrogers

Honestly, I wouldn't stress about it too much When you get Bifrost, try SPDIF, and that lacks try USB. A good USB implementation (which I believe the Bifrost will have) can outperform a weak SPDIF. My 2 cents.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





anaxilus said:


> Yeah, I'm post #3.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I realized you were already on it shortly after I posted that link 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  For a compendium, there's always the Computer Audio Forum, but there does seem to be a bit of shouting there at times 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
   
  Quote: 





obazavil said:


> I think Schiit said their USB module is as good as USB can get. So we can just play safe and get the USB module instead of doing magic
> 
> But those Creative x-Fi (i know are not in the same league) sounds too tempting with optical and 5.1 output


 
   
  I would definitely spend the extra $100 for the USB option on the Bifrost rather than getting a USB to spdif converter for it, it's a no-brainer.


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





misterrogers said:


> Honestly, I wouldn't stress about it too much When you get Bifrost, try SPDIF, and that lacks try USB. A good USB implementation (which I believe the Bifrost will have) can outperform a weak SPDIF. My 2 cents.


 

 But here's the rub.  The USB option is a sizable chunk of the overall cost of the device.  The USB option is one that Schiit doesn't even believe in yet offer as a convenience by their own philosophy.  Not to say the USB module won't compete w/ the best of the rest but these two facts make the calculus a bit more complex than just buying and trying in my mind.


----------



## livewire

Quote: 





grokit said:


> I would definitely spend the extra $100 for the USB option on the Bifrost rather than getting a USB to spdif converter for it, it's a no-brainer.


 


 Yup!
  And if you dont need it up front you can always buy & install it later. It is also asynchronous.
  Try and find an async aftermarket convertor for that price that will support those bitrates. Rotz-O-Ruk!


----------



## hoekeat

I already have the Sound Blaster X-Fi Surround 5.1 Pro connected to my HTPC all the time, which I can always take it out for use for my laptop with BiFrost via SPDIF. Is this set up significantly better than laptop->usb->BiFrost? Not to mention, i can save that $100 too.


----------



## K3cT

I'm convinced that nowadays these USB-to-S/PDIF converters are the new snake oil. There are so many products but without any clear distinction between them feature-wise and the prices are steadily climbing to ridiculous levels.


----------



## MarioImpemba

I've plugged in my Anedio D1 via USB and via SPDIF and I can't hear a difference - and the Anedio isn't even asynch! I'd think Schiit's USB option would be sonically capable, and Schiit's dismissal of USB inputs is more engineer-OCD than anything. *shrug*


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





k3ct said:


> I'm convinced that nowadays these USB-to-S/PDIF converters are the new snake oil. There are so many products but without any clear distinction between them feature-wise and the prices are steadily climbing to ridiculous levels.


 

 I'm wary of the same.  Trying to get a clear answer about how various products actually operate in the digital domain is like pulling teeth sometimes.

  Quote: 





marioimpemba said:


> I've plugged in my Anedio D1 via USB and via SPDIF and I can't hear a difference - and the Anedio isn't even asynch! I'd think Schiit's USB option would be sonically capable, and Schiit's dismissal of USB inputs is more engineer-OCD than anything. *shrug*


 

 I am not surprised.  Despite every claim about X>Y>Z standard every piece of gear I try (from $30 to $3000) yields a different result as to which is the best.  I can draw no conclusion other than it's all in the implementation and execution of the chosen standard.  There might be a theoretical answer but practical listening makes it seem more complicated to me.


----------



## Butler

jumper said:


> This is the same situation I'm in as well.  Shiit is clearly saying that they recommend SPDIF (without being converted from USB) over any USB implementation.  That leaves the motherboard's Realtek optical out or using a sound card.  In the case of the sound card you're most likely paying for one with DAC's you'll never use.  We would need a high end 'SPDIF out' only card.  And this is still based on Shiit's premise that SPDIF is preferred for the Bifrost over a USB->SPDIF converter.  I just don't know what interface to go with now




Exactly! I dont want to buy an expensive sound card with a nice DAC when it's just going to route right past the DAC going optical from the card into the bifrost. Honestly, if there's an issue I'll put down the money and install the USB card in the bifrost, but chances are- on a nice mobo with optical out it's going to be notably better coming from a optical out on a expensive card. Some people may say that USB > Average SPDIF but that's to be determined, IMO.


----------



## judmarc

Quote:


anaxilus said:


> I am not surprised.  Despite every claim about X>Y>Z standard every piece of gear I try (from $30 to $3000) yields a different result as to which is the best.  I can draw no conclusion other than it's all in the implementation and execution of the chosen standard.  There might be a theoretical answer but practical listening makes it seem more complicated to me.


   
  Exactly.  Implementation is going to trump "theory" every time in audio.  I put "theory" in quotes because so often some small truth gets unjustifiably enlarged to an absolute, and in audio the truths tend to be quite small, not so widely applicable as to cover the entirety of what's going on in any given piece of equipment.
   
  I've got a Bifrost on order and will be very interested to hear the S/PDIF optical, coaxial, and USB inputs.  There are "small truths" in favor of each of these interfaces (optical eliminates all electrical sources of distortion through ground; coax has greater bandwidth than optical; async USB tends to have lower jitter than all but very expensive S/PDIF implementations), but none large enough to say that one absolutely will sound better than the others in my system.  I will have to wait and listen to find out.


----------



## dyl1dyl

What puts some doubt in my mind is that they say that their usb is poorer than their optical, when clearly other manufacturers have made usb equivalent if not superior to optical in some cases, this imo would give buyers who intend to primarily use usb cause for thought.


----------



## Kremer930

From all that I have read especially on computer audiophile pages the USB is still lagging behind optical and coax. I think that Jason is being honest. I have tried dacs with USB capabilities and even tried a Hiface and the coax and optical still triumphs IMO. Do some research and you will see that most agree. 

I personally keep hoping that USB catches up as it is so convenient to use USB.


----------



## agisthos

When Schiit says spdif is better than USB, I think they are talking about ultimate performance, not using some rubbish spdif output on your computer/laptop.
  
  Schiit has also never said that Optical is better than USB. When they say 'spdif', we know they are actually talking about coaxial, because coaxial has lower jitter and sounds better compared to optical.

 If your only source is an iMac or laptop, then sure, you will probably find async USB better than the cheapo optical or coaxial output. But put your USB laptop up against a good transport or audiophile network streamer, then I believe spdif will come out on top.


----------



## Kremer930

Computer audiophile conflicts with what you are saying. The Mac mini is popular for a reason.


----------



## ninjikiran

Nice thing about these dacs is the USB card is replaceable meaning if you feel the USB is inferior on your statement DAC you can always get an upgrade if one comes down the line


----------



## Corbet

I realize the tech is new but I'd be interested to see how well thunderbolt ports would perform compared to USB.


----------



## judmarc

Quote:


agisthos said:


> When Schiit says spdif is better than USB, I think they are talking about ultimate performance, not using some rubbish spdif output on your computer/laptop.
> 
> Schiit has also never said that Optical is better than USB. When they say 'spdif', we know they are actually talking about coaxial, because coaxial has lower jitter and sounds better compared to optical.
> 
> If your only source is an iMac or laptop, then sure, you will probably find async USB better than the cheapo optical or coaxial output. But put your USB laptop up against a good transport or audiophile network streamer, then I believe spdif will come out on top.


 

 See above:  "There are 'small truths' in favor of each of these interfaces (optical eliminates all electrical sources of distortion through ground; coax has greater bandwidth than optical; async USB tends to have lower jitter than all but very expensive S/PDIF implementations)...."
   
   ....The particular implementation is going to determine in each case how the given interface will sound.  When we're going to have lots of people in two-three weeks using all the different Bifrost interfaces with lots of different associated equipment, what's the use now of speculating, much less making definitive statements?  You'll have people who can tell you what sounds best in their own setups, and some of those will match yours fairly well.  For my part, I plan to try the Bifrost using optical out from my MacBook Pro; USB through Musical Fidelity V-Link to coax; and USB direct.  I'll also run coax from my Oppo BDP-83 to the Bifrost.  I'll see which of those sounds best, and add my voice to the others here who'll be reporting back on their own experiences.
   
  I can tell you that my MacBook Pro USB through the V-Link then coax to my current DAC (Theta Pro Basic II) sounds better than the BDP-83 through coax.


----------



## Corbet

I have to say, Schiit has done a really good job with their product line for people like me - strictly digital listeners who want an amazing setup for under $1000.
   
  I realize a lot of audiophiles around here don't hold onto equipment for a long time but I just don't see myself getting a pair of cans that require something more powerful than the Bifrost and the Valhella/Asgard.


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





judmarc said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> anaxilus said:
> ...


 

 I look forward to your impressions.  I was wondering if you could go a bit into 'bandwidth'.  It's been stated what the theoretical bandwidth hierarchy is but how does it differ from transfer rate and throughput?  I assume we are talking about the width of a river not the flow of the current.  Especially when we are talking a digital stream rather than analog.  I think many of us have the wrong mental picture of binary 1's and 0's flowing linearly through a pipe.  
   
  Also, if bandwidth is a real consideration then how would usb>spdif converters overcome the initial bottleneck at the usb port?  Wouldn't they just be sending a pretty usb signal or something reconstructed rather than true spdif passed through from the source?


----------



## 45longcolt

My I-mac's about 5 years old; can this vintage machine output S/PDIF via the headphone output? And what needs be done as to settings, and cables? I plan to use my Bifrost out of my CD player for now, but would also like to try computer audio. Any help is appreciated.


----------



## dyl1dyl

2 weeks more!


----------



## judmarc

From http://www.audioholics.com/education/cables/toslink-interconnect-history-basics :
   
  "An often-overlooked cause of jitter is bandwidth limiting of the digital signal. Quoting from the Rémy Fourré Stereophile article 'Jitter and the Digital Interface' published in the October, 1993 issue: 'A word about optical links. Still using the example above with digital signals A and B, a low-pass filter at 5MHz-typical of TosLink-causes a time difference of 121ps. A 6MHz low-pass filter causes a time difference of 33ps. For adequate performance, optical links must have a bandwidth of 9MHz minimum. To operate at 48kHz and have a 15% margin for speed adjustments, the interface bandwidth must be at least 11MHz.'"
   
  Note re your question about USB speed that although the actual transfer speed won't be up to the 2.0 spec of 480Mbps, still some considerable fraction of that is more than fast enough to keep a buffer full that's being emptied at a max rate of 192khz (the sample rate at which the data's being clocked out of the buffer into the DAC conversion circuitry) x 24 (the bit depth).  Rounding for ease of calculation, call it 200 samples per second x 25 bits, or 5Mbps.  (Hope I've got the math right here - been 40 years since high school calculus, folks!)
   
  Note also this additional discussion from the link above:
   
  "When constructed from very high purity quartz, TOSLINK interconnects can exhibit a very wide bandwidth - 10MHz is not uncommon in practice. Compare this with the performance of a typical plastic conductor fiber optic cable that reaches its limitations at a mere 5MHz to 6MHz."
   
  Now is this info reliable?  Heck if I know.  I was just throwing out stuff you hear about the various interfaces to caution that no one should rely on these supposed truths, but rather we should all actually listen.  I will say, though, that Mike Moffat, designer of the Bifrost, did get behind a high-quality S/PDIF optical interface back in his Theta Digital days.  It was called the Laser Linque, and it sounded very, very good.  (Heard it at a friend's audio store, never owned one myself.)  So in principle there's nothing to say a sufficiently high quality optical input can't be as good as or better than coax.  But once again (I'll repeat, because it bears repeating), it's the implementation, revealed by listening, that tells you which interface is being most effectively utilized in a particular DAC in your own system.


----------



## judmarc

Corrections (see, I knew I shouldn't have started fooling with math): 32 bit "words," not 24 bit, and 2 channels.  Someone else has (thank goodness) done the calculation for me:
   
  "32bit x 2ch (subframe) x 96000hz = 6.144Mbps = 6.144MHz for a stereo 24bit/96khz stream.

 "...a 1999 revision of the AES3 standard establishes 12.3MHz of available bandwidth... from our equation above that would allow for 4 channels of 24/96 audio." - or 2 channels at 192kHz, I guess.


----------



## Corbet

I'm pretty sure I know the answer but I have a question:
   
  I have a pair of Denon D2000s that are low impedance. What would provide the biggest improvement in sound: a Schiit Asgard amp or a Schiit Bifrost DAC, assuming my source is a MacBook laptop.
   
  I think the answer is the DAC but I'd appreciate the advice.


----------



## dyl1dyl

corbet said:


> I'm pretty sure I know the answer but I have a question:
> 
> I have a pair of Denon D2000s that are low impedance. What would provide the biggest improvement in sound: a Schiit Asgard amp or a Schiit Bifrost DAC, assuming my source is a MacBook laptop.
> 
> I think the answer is the DAC but I'd appreciate the advice.




Hard to say, considering the bifrost isnt out yet. If thats your budget, it would prob be better to get something like the nuforce hd.post_7756845"]I'm pretty sure I know the answer but I have a question:
 
I have a pair of Denon D2000s that are low impedance. What would provide the biggest improvement in sound: a Schiit Asgard amp or a Schiit Bifrost DAC, assuming my source is a MacBook laptop.
 
I think the answer is the DAC but I'd appreciate the advice.
[/quote]

Hard to say, considering the bifrost isnt out yet. If thats your budget, it would prob be better to get something like the nuforce hd.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





corbet said:


> I'm pretty sure I know the answer but I have a question:
> 
> I have a pair of Denon D2000s that are low impedance. What would provide the biggest improvement in sound: a Schiit Asgard amp or a Schiit Bifrost DAC, assuming my source is a MacBook laptop.
> 
> I think the answer is the DAC but I'd appreciate the advice.


 

 As the Bifrost doesn't have a headphone output I would have to say the amp.


----------



## Kremer930

corbet said:


> I have to say, Schiit has done a really good job with their product line for people like me - strictly digital listeners who want an amazing setup for under $1000.
> 
> I realize a lot of audiophiles around here don't hold onto equipment for a long time but I just don't see myself getting a pair of cans that require something more powerful than the Bifrost and the Valhella/Asgard.




Whatever you do...dont audition HE6 or LCD2's with a Lyr then!


----------



## Jason Stoddard

Hey all, quick update:
   
  The new transformers are here, a little later than expected. That said, it looks like we'll start shipping Bifrosts at the end of the month as planned--it'll just be a little slow at first. As usual, we'll be shipping earliest orders first, so I'll have to ask for your patience if you ordered recently. It should take only a couple of weeks to clear all the pre-orders.
   
  Thanks for your patience!
   
  All the best,
  Jason


----------



## Kremer930

Awesome. Congratulations on arranging the alternative transformer supplier.


----------



## Corbet

Quote: 





grokit said:


> As the Bifrost doesn't have a headphone output I would have to say the amp.


 


   
  I have a small speaker receiver that I use my headphones with that's currently connected to my computer.


----------



## Butler

agisthos said:


> Schiit has also never said that Optical is better than USB. When they say 'spdif', we know they are actually talking about coaxial, because...





And when they're talking about apples they're actually talking about oranges, right?


----------



## mmayer167

Sweet! nice work, Jason. I tricked myself into thinking it wasn't going to ship til the end of October  
   
  M


----------



## agisthos

Quote:


judmarc said:


> For my part, I plan to try the Bifrost using optical out from my MacBook Pro; USB through Musical Fidelity V-Link to coax; and USB direct.  I'll also run coax from my Oppo BDP-83 to the Bifrost.  I'll see which of those sounds best, and add my voice to the others here who'll be reporting back on their own experiences.
> 
> I can tell you that my MacBook Pro USB through the V-Link then coax to my current DAC (Theta Pro Basic II) sounds better than the BDP-83 through coax.


 

 It will be great to get a thorough comparison like that. I only have access to a Win7 notebook running in kernal mode with all extraneous features turned off, but a MacBook would be best.

 Why your current coax sound better converted rather than direct from the BDP-83... I would say it is because the spdif conversion done in the V-Link is of much higher quality, less likely because the source was originally USB. The Oppo will be using a standard spdif conversion chip that cost in the cents. Also all the high frequency noise generated by the Oppo video chips and switch mode power supply will introduce more jitter problems.


----------



## judmarc

Quote: 





agisthos said:


> Quote:
> 
> It will be great to get a thorough comparison like that. I only have access to a Win7 notebook running in kernal mode with all extraneous features turned off, but a MacBook would be best.
> 
> Why your current coax sound better converted rather than direct from the BDP-83... I would say it is because the spdif conversion done in the V-Link is of much higher quality, less likely because the source was originally USB. The Oppo will be using a standard spdif conversion chip that cost in the cents. Also all the high frequency noise generated by the Oppo video chips and switch mode power supply will introduce more jitter problems.


 

 There are some very nice audiophile software players for Win you may want to look at, such as XXHighEnd and HQPlayer, though these cost more than some of the players available for Mac.  They could result in noticeably improved sound (they all have trial periods, so if things aren't sufficiently improved you can get rid of them).
   
  I partially agree with your comments - I do think the V-Link, not the USB output, is the reason the combo sounds good.  Async USB interfaces, reasonably well executed, will substantially reduce jitter.  Many will provide some electrical isolation as well (such as the Schiit will do), though this isn't true of the V-Link AFAIK.
   
  The Oppo's actually pretty good.  Regarding "noise generated by the Oppo video chips," there's a "Pure Audio" selection for Oppo playback that shuts down the video chips as well as the front panel display, which I always use for audio disc playback.  Re switch mode power supply, again, this is a matter not necessarily of all switch mode supplies being bad, but of execution.  There are very expensive critically praised DACs that use switch mode supplies.  Of course I doubt the Oppo's using parts and design equivalent to $7000 DACs, but it does sound very good as a transport (as I can tell you from listening, and as more than one reviewer has said).  Re jitter, my DAC is an old Mike Moffatt design, and he was concerned even back then with designing S/PDIF inputs to minimize jitter from the source.  We'll have to see how his new design compares.  (I asked that question out of curiosity, before Schiit *very* understandably said they wouldn't be making any comparisons between Mike's former company's products and his current designs for Schiit.)


----------



## ninjikiran

Actually there really isn't much higher you can get, they have a version geared towards audiophiles and in terms of components is laid out more like other units in the price range.  The high end dacs are not really much about esoteric capacitors and $500 solder.  There is a upper limit to components that they have available to use is what I mean.
   
  Its all about the engineering that goes behind it,  to which I will not go through the merits of some engineering failures and overpricing.  There is a separate forum for that and threads.


----------



## dyl1dyl

Any new news on the upcoming balanced dacs and amps.


----------



## dyl1dyl

Sorry, ?


----------



## Hero Kid

No new news that I am aware of... If it is not in the first post I have not read it.


----------



## Kremer930

I guess Jason is busy getting ready for shipping of the first batch of Bifrosts in 10 days.  I think that he said that the intermediate Shiit amp and Dac will go on pre-order soon after so probably not a lot of spare time at the Schhit camp.  
   
  I am also guessing that Jason will be checking to see if the new transformer supplier can fit with the requirements of the intermediate design.
   
  When speaking to Jason I always get the impression that he knows exactly what his end goal is and how he going to achieve that but there must be some serious levels of testing and tuning going on before he is comfortable with releasing a product to market.  The low level of complaints, faults and returns would support this.  I havent heard of any real problems.  Perhaps some faulty tubes but that is hard to test for as they can have minds of their own.


----------



## Kremer930

I sold my DacMagic today to repair the damage to my bank account caused by the purchase of an Alo Rx mk2 and the impending Bifrost so now the Lyr is all lonely waiting for its new Schiit partner.  
   
  Just in case anyone is interested I took a pic of the Vintage audio lab allow anti vibration foot that I am using for both the Lyr and the Bifrost.  They are slightly large but hoping that it will look impressive with the matching chassis and feet.


----------



## dyl1dyl

Haha, yup. Jason and Mike at Schiit are great guys. I suspect that we may have an announcement/details on the midrange dac and the "minimalist" right after the Bifrost starts shipping, i.e. start of next month.


----------



## 45longcolt

Hey Kremer930;
   
  Interesting "foot" - can you provide a manufacturer/seller link, please?


----------



## WNBC

*Valab Audio Vibration Isolation Damper Feet*, Ebay http://www.ebay.com/itm/Valab-Audio-Vibration-Isolation-Damper-Feet-4-Pcs-/270761812920?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_15&hash=item3f0aa963b8#ht_1782wt_1163

  Quote: 





45longcolt said:


> Hey Kremer930;
> 
> Interesting "foot" - can you provide a manufacturer/seller link, please?


----------



## Jason Stoddard

Hey all,
   
  Some real photos of Bifrost (yes, including the back panel) are up on the site!
   
  We'll have photos of the production guts shortly . . .
   
  All the best,
  Jason


----------



## Dynobot

How about pics of the guts....


----------



## xxhaxx

Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> Hey all,
> 
> Some real photos of Bifrost (yes, including the back panel) are up on the site!
> 
> ...


 

 If you reread what Jason wrote it did state that it would be uploaded later


----------



## hoekeat

Quote: 





hoekeat said:


> I already have the Sound Blaster X-Fi Surround 5.1 Pro connected to my HTPC all the time, which I can always take it out for use for my laptop with BiFrost via SPDIF. Is this set up significantly better than laptop->usb->BiFrost? Not to mention, i can save that $100 too.


 


  anyone?


----------



## dyl1dyl

Hey Jason, any info on when you guys will have an announcement ready for the upcoming balanced Dacs and amps?


----------



## tkteo

I wonder if the mid-range balanced DAC will have RCA outputs too.


----------



## Lil' Knight

Of course it will have.


----------



## internethandle

re: the poster who asked if the balanced DAC will also have RCA outputs - Jason confirmed not too far back that it will have both balanced and unbalanced outputs, so yes.
   
  I'm more interested in seeing how the modular aspects of the Bifrost will come into play - I had assumed that you would slide the "cards" in and out from the rear of the Bifrost with the help of some tools, but it appears (unless I'm just not seeing something) that that isn't the case and we'll be opening the chassis up, when the time eventually comes, for modifications. I guess that question would be more pertinent to those of us who opt out of USB and decide to get a USB "board" later on - will the USB port in the picture above just be "blocked off" for those who opt out of USB for now, kind of like an unused PCI slot on a PC chassis/case?


----------



## chronicled

Price seems fairly reasonable, so what's the consensus about the upgradeable DAC? Is it going to be expensive to upgrade?


----------



## pseudohippy

Quote: 





internethandle said:


> I'm more interested in seeing how the modular aspects of the Bifrost will come into play - I had assumed that you would slide the "cards" in and out from the rear of the Bifrost with the help of some tools, but it appears (unless I'm just not seeing something) that that isn't the case and we'll be opening the chassis up, when the time eventually comes, for modifications. I guess that question would be more pertinent to those of us who opt out of USB and decide to get a USB "board" later on - will the USB port in the picture above just be "blocked off" for those who opt out of USB for now, kind of like an unused PCI slot on a PC chassis/case?


 

 I personally dont have any issue at all with opening the case. If it just plugs in I dont think it matters how you open it. And if you search Jasons posts in this thread and the other Bifrost thread I know he answered that question about the usb port if you dont have it included. I think it was the post where he asks us to close our eyes and then he lists how the back would be configured. It was a while ago though.


----------



## Kremer930

Have you noticed that the Bifrost has changed from Pre-order to Buy.  It also says that any orders placed now should ship about two weeks after end of the month.  That is good news as it should mean that existing orders will be shipped before then.  Awesome.  More Schiit in the house!!
   
  I really need to start saving hard for the statement rig.  That is going to take my toy fund to the limit if I include the options.....


----------



## DarknightDK

Looking forward to that Statement rig as well. Some really good Schiit coming up!


----------



## livewire

Gutz man. Letz c sum gutz!


----------



## nsk1

Amazing how many people bought the product before seeing what's inside . Pics or didn't happen!


----------



## pseudohippy

Are you kidding lol?
   
  EDIT.  Ok, I see your happy face now. I didnt notice it before. But yeah, it would be nice to see pics but with these guys experience I am not worried about it at all.


----------



## Anaxilus

How about a soldered BNC connector for Coax.  =P


----------



## bobeau

Any word if review units have been shipped out?


----------



## Zorlac

I need a balanced amp and DAC (with BNC) bad! Any news???


----------



## dyl1dyl

Its the 30th of September here in Singapore!


----------



## dyl1dyl

Quote: 





zorlac said:


> I need a balanced amp and DAC (with BNC) bad! Any news???


 

 I asked Jason about a week ago and he told me that they would not be making any announcements until things were more finalized. However, I do believe that once they clear up all the Bifrost preorders (prob somewhere in the middle of october), then they should be able to focus fully on the two upcoming products and hopefully release some more news.


----------



## leesure

T-minus 3 hours til Sept 30!

Any news on the progress Jason?


----------



## livewire

Quote: 





dyl1dyl said:


> Its the 30th of September here in Singapore!


 


 Yup, and still no pix of them gutzzz. What?


----------



## Misterrogers

Since Jason has stated that they've had supply issues (with some parts landing just a week or so ago), I'd much rather he spent his time do all he can to be able to ship as many as possible on the 30th. Chill - it'll come.
  Quote: 





livewire said:


> Yup, and still no pix of them gutzzz. What?


----------



## Edi

Quote: 





misterrogers said:


> Since Jason has stated that they've had supply issues (with some parts landing just a week or so ago), I'd much rather he spent his time do all he can to be able to ship as many as possible on the 30th. Chill - it'll come.


 

 I totally agree, I'd rather wait for a complete working product without problems, than have them rushing and possibly having problems with the first batches.


----------



## Argo Duck

^ +1. They're a small company who've had success at a level they can hardly have expected. Their priority is surely construction and delivery at this moment. I'm pleased and amazed at the amount of time Jason has taken already to answer questions and keep us posted. And we'll know what we've been waiting for soon


----------



## paconavarro




----------



## Kremer930

We are just about finished September 30 here in Australia.  Does anyone have there order status updated to shipped as yet?
   
  Skylab- Do you have your review sample as yet?


----------



## leesure

kremer930 said:


> We are just about finished September 30 here in Australia.  Does anyone have there order status updated to shipped as yet?
> 
> Skylab- Do you have your review sample as yet?




It's currently 5am on Sept 30 where the Bifrosts are being assembled...I doubt their shipping dept is working quite that early. . Even if they are, the shippers aren't picking up that early.


----------



## Kremer930

Would you guys stop sleeping in so late and hurry the Schiit up!!!


----------



## Shubar

Give me give me give me give meeeee.....


----------



## Jason Stoddard

Hey all,
   
  Nobody has their order status updated yet because . . . we need a couple more days, I'm afraid.
   
  In the process of getting ISO9001 certified, our PC board assembly house has been slooooowwww. So the boards are just trickling in. The good news is that it looks like we'll have much better supply than we expected, so we should be able to clear the preorders much more quickly than I thought. But--bottom line--they're shipping next week, not this week.
   
  Sorry for the ongoing delays.
   
  All the best,
  Jason


----------



## Dynobot

Ahhhh, ISO 9001....Say what you do, Do what you Say, Show documentation.
   
  Fun stuff...in the end it works out for a better product though.
   
   
  Have fun!!!


----------



## agisthos

Well if shipping will take another week, give us some internal pics to drool over, please !!


----------



## Kremer930

Thanks Jason for the heads up.  I am sure that many manufacturers wouldn't even tell people if they were shipping a couple of days late.  
   
  But to compensate for the extreme heartache that many people are feeling.... do you have any news on intermediate or statement Schiit?  I am sure there is something that you can announce that will get tongues wagging....  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> Hey all,
> 
> Nobody has their order status updated yet because . . . we need a couple more days, I'm afraid.
> 
> ...


----------



## Fat Hamster

Can't wait for my Schiit ! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Thanks Jason for informing us about the delay.


----------



## ledzepplin

Give us more pics, pls.


----------



## dyl1dyl

Quote: 





kremer930 said:


> But to compensate for the extreme heartache that many people are feeling.... do you have any news on intermediate or statement Schiit?  I am sure there is something that you can announce that will get tongues wagging....


 

 X2


----------



## Killbox

Ah, not an another week. It will probably take a couple of weeks to ship it Norway. Then I will probably not have untill late October/early November. I've never waited such a long time for a product. I think I preordered in May(?)


----------



## Shubar

I was going to wait for reviews to start coming in before I order my Bifrost but since I'm so happy with my Lyr I thought "what the heck". Hopefully the back order gets cleared quickly!!!


----------



## korzena

>to compensate for the extreme heartache that many people are feeling.... do you have any news on intermediate or statement Schiit? I am sure there is something that you can announce that will get tongues wagging

X3!


----------



## agisthos

Latest news on Bifrost from Schiit
   
  Quote: 





> [size=medium]Here's what happened, if you're interested: our PC board assembly house got stuck in the middle of ISO9001 certification as we entered Bifrost production. The translation: they're delivering more slowly than we expected, and USB cards are especially impacted. I'd expect most of the Bifrosts shipped in the first week will be sans USB. The good news is that once the floodgates open, they open a lot wider than we hoped, so we'll be able to clear the pre-orders more quickly.[/size]


----------



## leesure

agisthos said:


> Latest news on Bifrost from Schiit




Yeah...very exciting. I get to wait extra long since I chose the USB option. Wonderful.


----------



## livewire

Sounds like U R yumpin 4 yoy!


----------



## lextek

I'm in need of DAC. Leaning towards the Schiit. Also considering the V-Dac. Don't really need the USB.


----------



## Jason Stoddard

Okay, to answer a few more questions:
   
  1. Yes, things around here are a little insane right now. We're basically living at the PCB assembly house at the moment. And yes, this is a local place--about 20 minutes away from our office.
   
  2. Internal photos? Yeah, we had a few more important things to do. Sorry about that. An internal shot will go up today.
   
  3. Shipping Monday? No. End of week for the first non-USB units. Assuming the board house doesn't get distracted by ISO again, or have someone out due to illness. See below.
   
  4. Why the ongoing delays? Because this is a VERY different animal than an amplifier. First, we cannot make units ourselves, as we have done in the past with amps. The surface-mount components are the size of fly crap, so we are completely dependent on the boardhouse. We have to wait for the first article, program it, test it, and release production if it meets spec. If it doesn't, repeat as necessary. Also, if the board house tells us, "We're going to ship the 22nd," then we take them at their word. If they subsequently say, "Ah, the 24th, the 27th, ah, I mean the 2nd, and that's for the analog boards, not the motherboard or the USB board," there is nothing we can do about it. Except apologize to you.
   
  5. Have we learned our lesson? Absolutely. You'll be hearing a lot less from us about what's coming when, until we actually have product in hand. That means you'll be able to confidently pre-order based on a real timetable that will be a lot shorter than 2 months. The bad news is, this will mean you won't hear about our new products for a while. I expect we will still have something (or somethings) new out this year, and something (or somethings) else out in Q1 2012. But that's all I can say at the moment.
   
  All the best,
  Jason


----------



## mmayer167

Thanks for the update Jason! I really appreciate the honesty and timeliness of your company, given the things within your control : ) Looking forward to hearing the Bifrost and am content waiting until it is ready.

Have a great rest of the week and try not to loose too much sleep, we are but audiophiles remember  

M


----------



## internethandle

Thanks a lot, Jason. Good luck with the final hurdles/red tape.


----------



## internethandle

guts:
   
http://schiit.com/cart/images/bifrost_product06.jpg


----------



## kongmw

ahh that internal shot looks really elegant! now i just have to wait till all the back-order clears before placing my own!


----------



## Kremer930

I think that we all know that you can only control the things you do yourself. The trouble with not announcing stuff early is that you will not be able to gauge true demand as easily. It certainly is safer though. That said... Take my deposit on a statement rig now. Please! 

This is a risk that I am well prepared to take. 

Good luck on a smooth remainder of the Bifrost build process.


----------



## dyl1dyl

Thanks a lot Jason, I can wait for the info on the upcoming stuff, respect your honesty.


----------



## Killbox

But shouldn't a review unit be out there somewhere allready?  I mean some of us would like to read a review before purchasing etc..


----------



## korzena

Quote: 





killbox said:


> But shouldn't a review unit be out there somewhere allready?  I mean some of us would like to read a review before purchasing etc..


 


 Exactly!


----------



## pseudohippy

I like the way they dont send out review units for the most part. I know they sent a Lyr to Moon or whoever that was but I dont believe they typically send out review units in advance of actual paying customers, which is how it should be. Do you guys have a quote somewhere from Jason saying he was going to send out a review unit? People keep saying it but I dont remember it ever coming from him. Im asking because I dont know btw.


----------



## Misterrogers

You'll certainly have that option - though you'll need to wait a bit longer 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
  Quote: 





killbox said:


> But shouldn't a review unit be out there somewhere allready?  I mean some of us would like to read a review before purchasing etc..


----------



## Kremer930

Was just checking out the photo of the Bifrost's internals.  It looks great.  Two comments.  Can anyone see how the USB module clips/locks in?  And secondly are there LEDs on the board?  I am pretty sure that I have asked Jason before and the LEDs offer an electrical benefit and not just a pretty glow.  Does anyone know exactly what they do?
   
  I am impressed.  Saves me ever having to open it up to see what is there.


----------



## livewire

Quote: 





kremer930 said:


> Was just checking out the photo of the Bifrost's internals.  It looks great.  Two comments.  Can anyone see how the USB module clips/locks in?  And secondly are there LEDs on the board?  I am pretty sure that I have asked Jason before and the LEDs offer an electrical benefit and not just a pretty glow.  Does anyone know exactly what they do?
> 
> I am impressed.  Saves me ever having to open it up to see what is there.


 

 Dont know anything about LEDs, but the two piggy-back boards are mounted
  with pin-header connectors. You can see the rows of the solder bumps on the boards
  above the pins that are projecting downward into the lower pcb female connectors
  With the USB jack possibly being plugged and unplugged repeatedly,
  it would be bad construction practice to just have the pin connectors supporting the pcb assembly.
  There are also (solder plated) screw holes for standoff spacers and through-bolting to the chassis.
  These provide the support needed.
  
  (he-he if I buy a Bifrost I want to rip it open to see what's under those piggy-backed pcbs. Prolly not much else...)


----------



## shaunybaby

Over the last few months while the bifrost has been talked about getting released, i have been adding all the release pictures of anything to do with the bifrost to my background picture file, its nice to see all the pictures of what soon will be in my hands on my desktop background.


----------



## agisthos

LED's offer no electrical benefit. In fact they create noise on the power rails which slightly reduce the sound quality to a minute degree. Not worth worrying about on an entry level product like this.
   
  You can see in the internal pic that both the USB board and analog output board are raised above the main PCB. I presume there is a pinout connector on the mainboard they just plug into.


----------



## Hero Kid

Quote: 





hero kid said:


> EDIT: I might also work on splitting the mid-teir DAC comments from the statement DAC comments. Will hopefully tackle that tomorrow night.


 
   
  I finally got around to doing this. Hopefully this makes it easier to find the information you want/are interested in!


----------



## AndreYew

For those who are curious, here's my analysis of the board based on that picture.  I wish I had more time to draw overlays on the picture to point things out.
   
  Starting at the right, you can see the IEC plug for the power cord.  It appears to be one with built-in noise filtering.  Behind that is a transformer to take line voltage (110 or 220) down to something the rectifiers and voltage regulators can handle.  I wonder if there is a jumper somewhere to convert this between 110 and 220. I'm not sure if the one black 2-lead component behind the transformer is a diode or not.  If it is and part of the rectifier, it's a pretty high quality rectifier and probably some kind of soft recovery diode, but I'm guessing not for this price point.  You can see a fuse peeking out next to the IEC plug.  The big brown capacitors and the things with the black heatsinks are voltage regulators used to make the voltage for the rest of the device.  There appear to be 4 of them, and that could mean there are 4 different voltages or they are separating out voltages for different functionality:  often the digital stuff has its own power supply in audiophile designs.
   
  In the middle is the digital input with the USB board mounted on top of a couple of headers.  There do appear to be 2 red LEDs on the USB board, but I have no idea what they do.  The USB board itself has some kind of controller (probably the USB chip), which is next to the capacitor can with the red strip.  Above it, there's a slight smaller rectangular chip which is either memory or flash storage to keep the programming of the USB controller.  There are also two clocks or crystals near the USB input --- they're the metallic rectangular things that are the same color as the USB port.  They bring to mind how different sampling rate frequencies are handled, but I'm not sure that's what they're there for since they'd have to handle the same issue for S/PDIF.
   
  The USB board also appears to have its own voltage regulator, probably to make the voltages needed by the USB controller and other digital stuff on that board.  All voltage regulation everywhere on the device appear to be linears instead of switchings, which makes it generate more heat, but less noise.
   
  I imagine that beneath the USB board, there's a lot of stuff going on for the S/PDIF inputs, and perhaps some management of the front panel button and LEDs.
   
  Leftmost is the audio board.  I would not be surprised if there is nothing underneath this board.  Anyway, the DAC chip is all the way at the back surrounded by the 8 silver capacitor cans.  The analog output appears to be a discrete design with no IC opamps in sight.  There are 4 transistors per channel, and the passives look to be high quality types --- metal film resistors and good caps in the red packaging.  It's interesting that the audio board has no nearby voltage regulators, as this seemed to be a hallmark of earlier Moffat designs at Theta, but they were probably constrained by the build cost for such an affordable device.  I also wonder if the output is capacitor coupled or they somehow hand trim the DC out of it since there aren't any servos apparent.
   
  It appears that the analog outputs travel down 8 pins onto the main board to the RCA jacks.  I find it interesting that there are 8 pins.  Some are surely grounds, but perhaps it's for future expansion for balanced?
   
  Hope this was helpful.


----------



## judmarc

Terrific stuff, Andre - thanks!  Nice to understand a little more about what I'm looking at.


----------



## internethandle

Yeah thanks a ton, Andre - very insightful for those of us without the required knowledge to know what we're looking at.
   
  I think I posted this earlier in this thread or the other one in the Sponsor announcements board, but I had asked Jason a month or so ago via e-mail about Schiit's transformer choice of EI transformers versus toroidal (or even R-Core/C-Core), which seems to be the most popular transformer choice in modern DACs, his reply being:
   
   
  Quote: 





> Reed,
> 
> Yeah, transformers get down to more of a religious discussion sometimes, but, bottom line: why would you want a transformer that bleeds more high-frequency hash back onto the AC line (like a toroid or R-core) in a DAC?
> 
> ...


----------



## AndreYew

Here is a marked up picture of the Bifrost guts:
   
  https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-2TrqKGI5Wck/Tozqi11MeII/AAAAAAAABDg/CVE4phAX_Tk/bifrost.jpg
   
  edit: fix up the transistor text to say it's 1 of 8.
   
  edit: here is an updated picture pointing out the two LEDs on the analog board, and one more crystal on the USB board: https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-yZIzBrpRx-I/To4WTkP72QI/AAAAAAAABD0/A8K4L_T_F0Q/bifrost.jpg


----------



## Hero Kid

Quote: 





andreyew said:


> Here is a marked up picture of the Bifrost guts: [...]


 

  That is awesome. I added it to the first post - I hope you do not mind!


----------



## agisthos

Good work AndreYew. We knew the USB board was plug in, but what suprised me was the audio board being a seperate module.
   
  It looks like this audio output board will be used in the mid range Schiit DAC as well, but with balanced outputs using those extra pins.


----------



## Kremer930

Thanks Andre.  I was impressed this morning when I read your commentary of the board design.  I dont know much more than what's a capacitor and whats a resistor so it is great to have someone explain the build.  The annotated photo is really great.
   
  It will be interesting to see how Schiit goes with the modular designs.  We already know that they have shared components and chassis for their amps to date and the Bifrost.  We also know that the Bifrost will have upgradeable modules -USB and Dac at least.  I am guessing that the need for the larger chassis will stop the upgrading from going too far.  ie taking a bifrost to a balanced output.
   
  I am still really impressed with Schiit.  Even the wait for the Bifrost is not even dampening my excitement.
   
  Bring on the announcement of the intermediate Dac and Amp and then the Statement Gear.  I wish Schiit all the best in their business.


----------



## Anaxilus

Aren't those LEDs right behind the TOSlink?  
   
  The only other time I've seen LEDs on a PCB not for illumination was for quick glance diagnostics.
   
  Yes, very helpful Andre!


----------



## justie

I notice there is a toggle switch for on and off at the back of the chassis but at thew same time it looks like there is a button on the front. Wonder what it does


----------



## Misterrogers

Quote: 





justie said:


> I notice there is a toggle switch for on and off at the back of the chassis but at thew same time it looks like there is a button on the front. Wonder what it does


 


  I believe the toggle is for power, and the button up front is for selecting between inputs (USB, Coaxial, S/PDIF).


----------



## agisthos

I think the rear toggle switch is power on/off. The front button select from the three inputs, and the 3 led's at the edge of the mainboard are the visual light for each of those inputs. The other internal LED's must be for diagnostic?


----------



## Jason Stoddard

Midweek update for everyone (well, kinda past midweek . . .)
   
  Our lives at the boardhouse are winding down. I can now say we will be shipping a handful of Bifrosts on Friday, another handful on Monday, and will have good supply as of Tuesday. 
   
  Apologies again for the delay.


----------



## pseudohippy

Great news, thanks for the frequent updates. Hopefully that means those of us with USB will be getting charged last part of next week?


----------



## Jason Stoddard

Yep, USB should start shipping midweek and have good supply by the end of the week.


----------



## grokit

"we will be shipping a handful of Bifrosts on Friday, another handful on Monday"
   

  Bifrost impressions should start trickling in next week then


----------



## AndreYew

Quote: 





hero kid said:


> That is awesome. I added it to the first post - I hope you do not mind!


 

  
  Not at all --- I'm glad people find it interesting.  I've added a couple more things to it.  For example, there are two yellow LEDs in the analog output stage --- I know diodes are sometimes used as references, so perhaps this is another way of doing it?  Also, there is another clock crystal, for a total of 3, on the USB card.  Here is the new pic, and I've kept the old one so I don't break any links:
   
  https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-yZIzBrpRx-I/To4WTkP72QI/AAAAAAAABD0/A8K4L_T_F0Q/bifrost.jpg
   
  edit:  the connector from the DAC board to the main board has 24 connectors.  Probably some are grounds, and some are power supply lines but there are more than enough pins to implement some kind of differential transmission of the digital data to the DAC itself especially if they're doing just 2 channels.  That would be 4 pins for the differential audio data, and 20 leftover for plenty of ground and power-carrying capacity.  Some might be unused for future expansion, too --- it's hard to say without the board in hand.


----------



## rrahman

Has anyone gotten their bifrost yet?  Any prelim impressions?


----------



## Maxvla

Shipping out middle of next week so no.


----------



## Kremer930

Some people who ordered early without USB should have had theirs ship on Friday. I am hanging out. My home rig has gone from having the choice of a matrix and DacMagic down to now having to use my iBasso d12 as the DAC. The Bifrost will be a big improvement. I am looking forward to comparing the optical and USB inputs. Because I use a Mac as source I don't really have a coax output. This means that I can output 192 via pure music software upsampling but only 96 via optical.

Let the feedback and reviews commence.


----------



## Killbox

Do we get a tracking number? that would be convenient for us international customers


----------



## xxhaxx

Quote: 





kremer930 said:


> Some people who ordered early without USB should have had theirs ship on Friday. I am hanging out. My home rig has gone from having the choice of a matrix and DacMagic down to now having to use my iBasso d12 as the DAC. The Bifrost will be a big improvement. I am looking forward to comparing the optical and USB inputs. Because I use a Mac as source I don't really have a coax output. This means that I can output 192 via pure music software upsampling but only 96 via optical.
> Let the feedback and reviews commence.


 

 Don't think schiit has shipped out all of the non-USB version yet  :[ Still waiting on my  trackcing


----------



## ChavaC

Yah I ordered the morning the pre-order opened, w/o USB, and mine hasn't shipped yet. Can't wait to ditch the D10 from my desktop rig


----------



## leesure

Has anyone gotten a shipping notification??


----------



## pseudohippy

Quote: 





leesure said:


> Has anyone gotten a shipping notification??


 


  Yes, check other thread.


----------



## Killbox

no, still no shipping info/tracking number.


----------



## 188479

Well I jumped on the bandwagon last night...placed an order for the Bifrost with USB, the wait begins!


----------



## Kremer930

At least you wont have long to wait. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
   People should start receiving their non usb units about now.  Cant wait for the initial thoughts and reviews.  Will hopefully have mine in a week too.


----------



## DavidNighorn

Got mine today.  I was about the 20th order placed on Day 1.  Lest everyone start to wonder, I sent in a prepaid overnight shipping label.  You didn't get skipped.
   
  To set the stage a bit, I have relatively limited experience with DACs.  Up to now, I have had the Dacmagic and the Cobra D10 units.  Both were a decent improvement over the Squeezebox internal DACs.
   
  With just a few hours on it, I can say that the Bifrost is significantly better than the Dacmagic.  The primary quality that I notice is a much larger sense of space and soundstage.  This observation is made using HD600 headphones and the Asgard amp - a combination that I have been using for 7 months in conjunction with the Dacmagic.  The sound of the Bifrost is, to use a cliche, 'organic'.  Nothing calls attention to itself, but everything sounds alive.  By comparison, the Dacmagic was a bit 'shimmery' in a way that is dazzling at first but wears badly over the hours.  
   
  Physically, the Bifrost is identical to the Asgard with the exception of the volume knob.  The two look great together.  And for those of you interested in heat output, the Bifrost runs just warm - like you would expect from a unit with electricity running through it.  By comparison to the egg-fryer (Asgard), it is positively cool.
   
  I am not sure how much break-in will factor in on the Bifrost.  But I have reference recordings, as we all do, that will help me to accurately assess changes over the hours.
   
  Based on this extremely limited session, I can assure you that I am saving for the Statement product to use in my listening room!


----------



## Argo Duck

^ great to hear. nice impressions.


----------



## xxhaxx

Pish overnight shipping what a waste of money 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 gotta love how fedex ground shipping takes only 1 day to deliver me the item.
   
  Hopefully Schiit can ship it out by the end of the week :[. Sold my nfb-12 to make room for the Biforst and now my Lyr and LCD2 is all lonely.


----------



## mmayer167

^ coolio 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  M


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





xxhaxx said:


> Pish overnight shipping what a waste of money
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Hate to rain on your parade but someone is listening to a new DAC right now and someone else isn't.


----------



## DavidNighorn

Quote: 





anaxilus said:


> Hate to rain on your parade but someone is listening to a new DAC right now and someone else isn't.


 


  Still listening too.  I need to go to bed but cannot tear myself away from the music.  This is the way that I usually experience vinyl, but it is rare with digital.


----------



## Maxvla

I agree with your comments about the DacMagic. It is great for what it is, but shimmery is a great word to use. Hoping I experience a similar change you have when my Bifrost arrives.


----------



## xxhaxx

Quote: 





anaxilus said:


> Hate to rain on your parade but someone is listening to a new DAC right now and someone else isn't.


 
   
  Still waiting for the main act to arrive, so the parade has yet to start.


----------



## Shubar

Bugger, I'm order like 400+, guess I have to wait a while


----------



## dyl1dyl

Quote: 





davidnighorn said:


> Got mine today.  I was about the 20th order placed on Day 1.  Lest everyone start to wonder, I sent in a prepaid overnight shipping label.  You didn't get skipped.
> 
> To set the stage a bit, I have relatively limited experience with DACs.  Up to now, I have had the Dacmagic and the Cobra D10 units.  Both were a decent improvement over the Squeezebox internal DACs.
> 
> ...


 

 Great impressions, sigh, the wait for the Statement DAC is going to take forever.


----------



## Kremer930

Thanks David for your initial impressions.  I am order 157 but with USB so will likely ship within the next week.  But your comments on the sound quality will at least help tide me over for a few more days.  My previous Dac was the DacMagic so I am very excited to hear and see the Bifrost sitting under the Lyr.  
   
  Would it be childish to ask for a picture of the Bifrost and Asgard together?


----------



## Denys

Quote: 





davidnighorn said:


> Got mine today.  I was about the 20th order placed on Day 1.  Lest everyone start to wonder, I sent in a prepaid overnight shipping label.  You didn't get skipped.
> 
> To set the stage a bit, I have relatively limited experience with DACs.  Up to now, I have had the Dacmagic and the Cobra D10 units.  Both were a decent improvement over the Squeezebox internal DACs.
> 
> ...


 

 Good..... tell me David, do you think we can put the Bifrost under the Asgard without problems ????
   
  I want to use the Asgard I have to listen to movies without disturbing anyone..... I'll get my new Bluray player this Friday, and if the Dac is so-so, I will strongly consider buying a Bifrost....except that I would have to put it under the Asgard.... Just want to make sure it's feasible....
   
  Or maybe Jason could answer this...
   
  Denys


----------



## DavidNighorn

Quote: 





denys said:


> Good..... tell me David, do you think we can put the Bifrost under the Asgard without problems ????
> 
> I want to use the Asgard I have to listen to movies without disturbing anyone..... I'll get my new Bluray player this Friday, and if the Dac is so-so, I will strongly consider buying a Bifrost....except that I would have to put it under the Asgard.... Just want to make sure it's feasible....
> 
> ...


 

 I never did attach the rubber knobs to the bottom of the Asgard.  As such, it is absolutely flat on the bottom.  When I set up the Bifrost yesterday, I put the Asgard directly on top of it, providing contact across the top/bottom of the components.  The Bifrost absorbed quite a lot of the Asgard heat.  Next, I put a couple of my kids' wooden building blocks between them and there was no problem at all.  If pressed, I'd say that the little rubber feet that come with the Asgard would be enough to eliminate most of the heat transfer.
   
  That is a long way of saying 'Go ahead.  Just make sure there is a small bit of space between them.'


----------



## Killbox

Hope to see a tracking number soon at least. I'm number 30th in queue, so it shouldn't take long (?).


----------



## ninjikiran

I am more interested in comparisons with the NFB-2 which is in the same league(or NFB-3, since they are very similar anyway)


----------



## Defiant00

Also, any comparison with the DAC in the NFB-10SE would be greatly appreciated (ideal: Bifrost -> Lyr vs NFB-10SE for LCD-2)


----------



## gasmd

i am something like #398 and jason said 2 weeks from now


----------



## Argo Duck

A Bifrost/Lyr vs 10SE comparison would certainly be interesting. From the NFB10 and NFB10SE threads it seems the Lyr and 10SE (even single-ended) are pretty close in performance; so _mayb​e_ the DAC comparison would be quite revealing about the bifrost...


----------



## Hero Kid

Quote: 





denys said:


> [...] Or maybe Jason could answer this..


 

 He already did. Search the first post for "stack"


----------



## ChavaC

Sounds pretty damn good so far.


----------



## leesure

What # were you?
  
  Quote: 





chavac said:


> Sounds pretty damn good so far.


----------



## ChavaC

I wanna say 80's but I was google checkout so I don't know, but I do remember it was the morning they started the preorder. No USB of course.


----------



## shaunybaby

Quote: 





chavac said:


> Sounds pretty damn good so far.


 


 cool! im clad to hear it sounds good. that is the setup that im planning on getting.


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





chavac said:


> Sounds pretty damn good so far.


 


  Congrats. When you have some hours on the Bifrost, some more impressions would be really appreciated.
   
  Aren't you worried about your Lyr over-cooking your DAC?


----------



## petemac110

Quote: 





ninjikiran said:


> I am more interested in comparisons with the NFB-2 which is in the same league(or NFB-3, since they are very similar anyway)


 

  
  Indeed... this is the comparison I'm hanging out for!


----------



## yeemanz

Just got my billed for my order #29 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Lyr/Bifrost stakage here we come!
   
  Edit: I ordered mine just after they switched from google checkout to paypal.


----------



## Maxvla

macedonianhero said:


> Congrats. When you have some hours on the Bifrost, some more impressions would be really appreciated.
> 
> Aren't you worried about your Lyr over-cooking your DAC?




Jason said it was fine to stack, even with the hotter Asgard.


----------



## xxhaxx

Quote: 





yeemanz said:


> Just got my billed for my order #29
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Just got billed :] Order number:105


----------



## Wedge

Damn, I am like order number 9 and I haven't gotten my tracking info yet.


----------



## Maxvla

You probably ordered with USB. The non-USB Bifrosts are shipping first.


----------



## judmarc

Order #35, with USB.  Jason estimated middle to end of this week before USB units began shipping (if I recall correctly), and of course I hope the schedule doesn't slip too much from that.  Wedge (presumably) and anyone else with USB, would appreciate hearing about it here when you get billing/shipping notification.


----------



## sorue

hands up if you wanna see Bifrost owners pop the lid off and post internal pics. I know i'm dying to see 'em!


----------



## Maxvla

There's already been internal shots.. look back a page or three, or perhaps in the other Bifrost thread.


----------



## sorue

you mean the official pictures? It must be my aging eyes 'cos i can barely see anything from those pictures. I'm sure the Bifrost owners could take some nice close-up pics for us to admire


----------



## pseudohippy

Well the board has been nicely detailed by a member here. Did you see his version with all the notes included. I believe it is linked into the first post.


----------



## xxhaxx

http://cdn.head-fi.org/b/b2/b2997ba7_annotatedbifrost.jpeg
   
  LINK


----------



## Yuceka

My Bifrost (non-USB) just got shipped. The delay in shipping has caused me to make some changes in my plans so it is very likely that I am going to end up selling it here pretty soon but I just had to listen to and see what it sounds like. So be on the look out if you want a non-USB Bifrost.


----------



## hooked

Mine (#56) just got shipped (non-USB)


----------



## Killbox

So what are impressions so far?


----------



## jerikl

Got mine today. It powers on just fine but otherwise it's not working. At least, the optical input doesn't appear to be working. I've tested it with two computers (iMac and MacBook Pro) along with two different optical cables. I'm unable to test the coaxial input. Correct input is selected on the Bifrost and sound settings are correct on the computers.
   
  Not looking for help -- just wanted to let everyone know in case someone else has the same issue. And btw, I've already contacted Schiit. It IS pretty though


----------



## jerikl

Jason got back to me quick!! Within 30 minutes actually. Looks like I'm just gonna have to return it for another (probably an early failure). No biggie -- I'm going on vacation for a few days anyway.


----------



## Maxvla

Mine is sitting on my doorstep waiting for me to get home! And no I won't tell you where I live


----------



## Maxvla

As I have limited time before early bed to catch flight for RMAF, my very early impressions are right out of the box, but were still quite an eye opener. They echo David's comparison with the DacMagic. I've always felt the DacMagic was good, but rough and the first violin bow stroke told me all I needed to know in my decision between the 2 DACs. I've only had my DacMagic with no other DAC to compare with until now, and thought that there was probably not much if any differences between them. I need more time to see if the Bifrost has negative side effects, but the initial impressions are that it is VERY smooth and has good clarity, it just has a clean sound which was missing on the DacMagic. Passages that used to make my cringe slightly on my DacMagic are effortlessly played with the Bifrost. Soundstage depth seems improved, width slightly. Positioning and separation appear to be similar. As David mentioned it just feels more alive. Looking forward to putting much more time on this.

Now I gotta dash off and get a few errands run and pack.


----------



## dyl1dyl

Quote: 





maxvla said:


> As I have limited time before early bed to catch flight for RMAF, my very early impressions are right out of the box, but were still quite an eye opener. They echo David's comparison with the DacMagic. I've always felt the DacMagic was good, but rough and the first violin bow stroke told me all I needed to know in my decision between the 2 DACs. I've only had my DacMagic with no other DAC to compare with until now, and thought that there was probably not much if any differences between them. I need more time to see if the Bifrost has negative side effects, but the initial impressions are that it is VERY smooth and has good clarity, it just has a clean sound which was missing on the DacMagic. Passages that used to make my cringe slightly on my DacMagic are effortlessly played with the Bifrost. Soundstage depth seems improved, width slightly. Positioning and separation appear to be similar. As David mentioned it just feels more alive. Looking forward to putting much more time on this.
> Now I gotta dash off and get a few errands run and pack.


 
   
  Bifrost impressions sounding good so far, hopefully you can spend some more time with your new DAC when you get back. Its great to see some companies like Schiit still  make decently priced items unlike certain other companies, cough (a certain planar magnetic company) cough.


----------



## Edoardo

Quote: 





jerikl said:


> Got mine today. It powers on just fine but otherwise it's not working.


 

 ??????????????????????


----------



## hp300plus

Just received mine:  Initial impressions follow same suit as others.  I was previously using a nuforce uDac2.  With the Bifrost, there's definitely some micro details coming out that I have not heard before -- with some added spacial-ness (if that's a word) and better separation of instruments.  I've got to head back to work from lunch, but am letting the Bifrost burn in with my ripped ALAC copy of Isotek burn-in tracks.  I'll post more info along with my other gear in use tonight or tomorrow.


----------



## xxhaxx

When you switch tracks does the bifrost makes a click click sound?


----------



## pseudohippy

Quote: 





xxhaxx said:


> When you switch tracks does the bifrost makes a click click sound?


 


  Why would it do that? Do you have one that does that?


----------



## hp300plus

Using Optical connection here and yes, it does make a clicking noise when a signal is input/when I begin playing music, but only then, not when switching tracks.  I suspect you are playing music files that are at different sample rates possibly, and when you go from track to track, there's some internal clock switching going on -- Schiit indicated they are using a special clock system that doesn't upsample which I suspect is the 'clicking' sound you are hearing... this is from their site:
   
*Advanced Bitperfect Clock Management *
*The ugly truth about most DACs in this price range is that they sacrifice every single one of your original music samples to get their magic "192kHz" spec. Every input is routed through a sample rate converter and upsampled to 24/192. Bifrost dispenses with the sample rate converter and uses a sophisticated master clock management system to deliver bit-perfect data to the DAC, preserving all the original music samples--whether it's 16/44.1 or 24/192.*
   
  I believe some Home Theater Audio/Video Receivers do this today... they have the same clicking effect when DVDs/Blurays change sample/bit rates (for example when going from the 2-channel "menu/title/chapter select" tracks at 44.1k to the actual movie playback at 96k).  
   
  Still going to let mine burn in more though before I post a follow up review.


----------



## pseudohippy

Cool, thanks for the reply hp300plus.


----------



## xxhaxx

Quote: 





hp300plus said:


> Using Optical connection here and yes, it does make a clicking noise when a signal is input/when I begin playing music, but only then, not when switching tracks.  I suspect you are playing music files that are at different sample rates possibly, and when you go from track to track, there's some internal clock switching going on -- Schiit indicated they are using a special clock system that doesn't upsample which I suspect is the 'clicking' sound you are hearing... this is from their site:
> 
> *Advanced Bitperfect Clock Management *
> *The ugly truth about most DACs in this price range is that they sacrifice every single one of your original music samples to get their magic "192kHz" spec. Every input is routed through a sample rate converter and upsampled to 24/192. Bifrost dispenses with the sample rate converter and uses a sophisticated master clock management system to deliver bit-perfect data to the DAC, preserving all the original music samples--whether it's 16/44.1 or 24/192.*
> ...


 

  
  Ok. Thanks for the information


----------



## estreeter

Guys, I know I'm staggering into this thread roughly 65 pages after everyone else, but the BiFrost IS shipping, isnt it ? I'm seeing plenty of 'oooh, this is gonna be awesome !', but not much in the way of actual impressions - anyone ?
   
  Tks


----------



## Maxvla

Look in the official Schiit sponsor thread.


----------



## Hero Kid

Quote: 





estreeter said:


> Guys, I know I'm staggering into this thread roughly 65 pages after everyone else, but the BiFrost IS shipping, isnt it ? I'm seeing plenty of 'oooh, this is gonna be awesome !', but not much in the way of actual impressions - anyone ?
> 
> Tks


 

 Yep the non-USB models are currently shipping. Users have already started receiving theirs. See the first post for a collection of relevant posts.
  I am not aware of any USB models that have shipped yet. They are nearly here though, from what Jason says.


----------



## agisthos

Whats is the exact fuse specifications for this DAC ?


----------



## hp300plus

Here's an updated mini-review for interested folks.  My setup is as follows.
   

 *Power*:  From the wall - Pangea AC-9 power cable > PS Audio Duet power center > Shunyata Diamondback power cables x 3 (one for iMac, one for Lyr, and one for Bifrost).
 *Source*: iMac running Mac OS X 10.7.2
 *Software player*: Audirvana Plus 1.0.2 app using 16 bit/44.1k Apple Lossless rips (no software upsampling)
 *Headphone Amp*: Lyr with stock JJ ECC88 tubes
 *Headphone*:  Audio Technica M50
 *Bifrost input from iMac optical out*: Sonicwave Impact Glass Toslink
 *Bifrost output to Lyr*: WireWorld Solstice 6
   
  I have been burning in the Bifrost for approximately 18 hours using a ripped copy of the Isotek system burn-in CD.  I am comparing this to a nuforce uDac2 as it's my only other DAC at the moment. I have added some bulleted outlines along with two album reviews.
   
  For starters, without question (and probably needless to say), the Bifrost beats the uDac2 hands down.  I will give the uDac2 credit though as it truly packs a lot of quality sound in a compact and very affordable package, but at a little over 2 times the price of the uDac2, the Bifrost comes out a clear winner.
   

 *Soundstage*:  Much wider than the uDac2.  All this time, I was skeptical that headphones simply wouldn't give you the soundstage you get with a normal stereo setup.  I was wrong.  The Bifrost brought a deep and wide soundstage that I didn't know was possible.  Granted, a stereo setup still beats headphones (at least for me), but with the Bifrost, my opinion has shifted with this experience such that the Bifrost is like a 'gateway drug' in my wanting to search for better headphones and to save up for that statement DAC.
 *Imaging*:  I am hearing some really fantastic separation of instruments, vocals, etc.  Kind of scratching my head that this is actually possible with headphones.  
 *Detailing*:  See my album reviews, all I can say to sum it up is… WOW.  Way better than the uDac2.
 *Noise*:  The uDac2 uses and is powered by USB so when paired with the Lyr, I would consistently hear computer generated noise from it so there was always a low level distortion coming through because of this computer noise coming in the signal.  With the Bifrost over optical, there is absolutely zero noise.  And the background is dead silent.
   
  I listened to two of my go to favorite albums for testing -- both are self-titled by Fever Ray and James Blake.
   
  Fever Ray - Fever Ray:  This album is full of details, soft passages, thick and lush synthesizers, and ghostly vocals.  For those of you who remember the duo "The Knife", Fever Ray is the debut solo album from the female.  Compared to the uDac2, the Bifrost took the experience from a 6 to a 9 (I think I'll reserve the 10 for that statement DAC).  All these wonderful details came in like they've never done before - more alive and organic.  There's a sense of instrument separation where you can hear certain instruments/sounds fall below the ears, in the middle and above. I feel like I am hearing this album the way the artist intended.  
   
  James Blake - James Blake:  This is an excellent album to further test micro details and soundstage - you can really hear James coming in and out on the vocals, breathing, tongue movements and all (don't laugh).  There are even passages where you can hear he's been recording in his home (I think) as there's an ever so faint street noise / chatter in the background.  James adds some interesting vocoder and phase shifting effects to the music that really make the headphone experience very spacial… I thought the uDac2 did a bang up job with this album, but wow, did the Bifrost once again take it to another level.  The positioning of certain sounds is pretty stellar - way more 360 degrees which I didn't get with the uDac2.  
   
  All in all, I am very impressed with the Bifrost.  I might be a little overexcited given I'm coming from a uDac2, but none-the-less, I am very happy with this purchase such that I will be taking out the piggy bank to start saving for the statement DAC to see what it can do. 
   
  As their other thread states in the Sponsor area -- "Haute Schiit" indeed!!!


----------



## Killbox

Sounds good, I'm coming from a udac v.1     Looking forward.


----------



## sampson_smith

Good work, hp300plus! Thanks for the mini-review. I am getting quite excited about the possibility of hearing this DAC, especially since the only one I have had recently is the uDAC-2 (which is a great budget DAC/amp for my HD-25-1 II-based computer rig). Also very glad to see that you count Fever Ray and James Blake among favorite albums of yours. I love those two as well and also dig Blake's earlier dubstep-infused stuff. The Knife ain't too bad, either!


----------



## tim3320070

My suggestion is to sell the 4 power cables you bought and use that money towards better headphones- you could buy HD650's or similar.


----------



## firev1

Quote: 





tim3320070 said:


> My suggestion is to sell the 4 power cables you bought and use that money towards better headphones- you could buy HD650's or similar.


 


  I laugh at your super expensive signal chain to M50s. Or if you don't want to sell, your signal chain would only benefit some of the higher end phones like HD800, Audeze LCD 2 rev.2, Hifiman's HE-6/500.


----------



## sampson_smith

I bet you could also include LCD-2 rev.1's in that list, firev1.


----------



## wiinippongamer

That does it! I'm buying this schiit


----------



## internethandle

I must have missed the part in hp300plus's review where he solicited headphone suggestions from trolling cable skeptics


----------



## Argo Duck

LOL! Indeed. Whilst I am sure hp300plus is grateful for the help (
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




), really he/she deserves our thanks for a nice, tidy, informative mini-review.
  Quote: 





internethandle said:


> I must have missed the part in hp300plus's review where he solicited headphone suggestions from trolling cable skeptics


----------



## eclein

hp300plus-Thank you so very much for the review, a nice concise look at a new product and one I have ordered with USB and should be getting very soon. My guys were at RMAF today and saw Jason from Schiit and he told them the USB's should start shipping this coming week so its not to far off for me. While I wait patiently I've been popping in from time to time hoping to catch someone who can put into words what they are hearing and you did that superbly in my book..Thanks!!!
   For those cable skeptics, if you don't believe it makes a difference fine but let others hear it and decide for themselves. I swear you guys come off as cult like with the whole anti cable thing.....


----------



## 45longcolt

My thanks also to hp300plus - my Bifrost ships next week or so sez Jason and I am impatient.
   
  And eclien is right on - you must decide with your own ears about cables, power cords, power conditioners etc.  Granted, it is sometimes easier to notice a difference than to decide whether that difference is an improvement. But, skeptics, have you really done the listening or are you just going on theory?
   
  If one DAC is better than another, then the same must be true of any component; be it a deck, a set of phones or even a capacitor (There, how's that for theory?) Keep an open mind.


----------



## ecohifi

Has any Bifrost owners at this stage have a other dacs such as the sabre 9018 or audio gd that they can directly compare it with, would be interested in your findings!!! Especially in coax mode.


----------



## ChavaC

coax->lyr (6N23P) -> bifrost -> LCD-2 r1
   
  Just to chime in with my thoughts, I've had the Bifrost about 4 days now and so far I'm really enjoying it. Mind you I'm coming from a D10 coupled to my Lyr so take my impressions with a grain of salt, but the Bifrost really is night and day in comparison across the board. The thing that especially jumps out to me is the imaging; everything has such a 3 dimensional and voluminous sound to it that I've never been able to get out of the other dacs I've owned. I had even all but decided to move on from the LCD-2s to the HD800 because I thought they were never going to let me hear _into_ the music to the extent I wanted, but that idea is pretty much out the window now, and I've been having a lot of fun revisiting all my music with the LCD's. Even some of the poorly recorded music I have is showing some new life. On top of that, the soundstage is much more fleshed out but only a bit wider, although in all fairness my LCD-2s have never really shined in that department. I really get the feeling I'm listening to an actual room/stage rather than a wall of sound. Detail wise the bifrost is pretty big step up and I'm hearing several nuances I've never caught before, even in some of my favorite songs. It also feels like extension on both ends has been upped a notch or two. Tonally what I'm hearing sounds pretty neutral, maybe slightly warmer but I don't really get the impression it's coloring the music to any significant degree. So far I'm having trouble coming up with anything to complain about. There were a few hihats and drum beats that sounded a little thin when I first started listening, but my ears might have just been a little wonky as I haven't been able to find them again. Build quality is of course simple and solid.
   
  I don't have a high end reference to compare to against higher price points, so take everything with a grain of salt, but I have to say I'm quite pleased with the sizeable bump in clarity and detail. I've always been a pretty underwhelmed with my past DAC upgrades (HDP, D10), so it's nice to finally have something that really adds to my rig.


----------



## ecohifi

Quote: 





45longcolt said:


> My thanks also to hp300plus - my Bifrost ships next week or so sez Jason and I am impatient.
> 
> And eclien is right on - you must decide with your own ears about cables, power cords, power conditioners etc.  Granted, it is sometimes easier to notice a difference than to decide whether that difference is an improvement. But, skeptics, have you really done the listening or are you just going on theory?
> 
> If one DAC is better than another, then the same must be true of any component; be it a deck, a set of phones or even a capacitor (There, how's that for theory?) Keep an open mind.


 

 45longcolt,
   
  I have built most of my gear apart from sources and dacs because these devices are so small that I cannot solder them,  I am experimenting with op amps right now and I can tell you that changing a RCA cable makes a difference.  Removing caps or replacing them with MKPs in the signal path will change SQ.  Even replacing a volume pot every 6mth will maintain SQ.  I fall short in power cords because I know enough that in therory this is not value to do if you spend hundreds on a power cord, you're better of getting a better dac or amp or upgrading other components in your rig.  Line conditioners will help to reduced noise that is introduced in the digital domain but in saying that transformers in psu will filter out most electrical noise.  I haven't delved into line conditioning deviced but others will prove me wrong!!


----------



## pseudohippy

I dont see anywhere anyone being ani cable. I think a couple people just said what they did because it sounds like he has hundreds invested in cables and $90 headphones. Seemed odd to me also but if that is the sound sig he likes then price is really irrelevant. But yeah, I was kinda surprised also when I read about all that great gear the then ATH M50. You guys have to admit that headphones make a bigger difference than cables, even if you totally believe in them so most folks spend money on the phones before cables. Of course, if you love the M50 then consider yourself lucky, you get to save tons of dough. I like mine.
   
  Thanks for the reviews to everyone who has talked about the Bifrost. I thought Jason said USB models should have started shipping late last week but another week is no biggie. I must admit Im getting pretty excited now though.


----------



## Kremer930

Thanks for the reviews.  It is great to read more positive impressions from those lucky non usb headfiers.
   
  I do have a comment to hp300plus though.  You mentioned that the Bifrost may be the entry drug into a world of seeking improvement in sound quality now that you have been awakened to the improvements that are possible.  I wont pick on your cans as I havent used them before but I will suggest that you check out the Lyr tube rolling thread.  The stock JJ tubes are unanimously declared as holding back the potential of the Lyr.  Even spending $4 or less on a set of 6N23P tubes will give you a noticeable improvement.  But beware...at this price...this really is opening up a potential tube rolling drug craze...
   
   
  Thanks again for your impressions.


----------



## 29twenty

how come all the early reviews are people coming from MUCH lesser dacs? marketing scheme? of course all initial reviews are glowing if theyre comign from portable/sub 150$ dacs. if it is marketing... its genius.  people im sure always talk to schiit about their gear and how theyre excited, etc.  if i were a company, id take that to my advantage.  ship out early units to early orders with much lesser gear.. get the early word + extra sales out. then send the rest. 
   
  make any sense? or just over thinking things... u be the judge.


----------



## pseudohippy

Quote: 





29twenty said:


> how come all the early reviews are people coming from MUCH lesser dacs? marketing scheme? of course all initial reviews are glowing if theyre comign from portable/sub 150$ dacs. if it is marketing... its genius.  people im sure always talk to schiit about their gear and how theyre excited, etc.  if i were a company, id take that to my advantage.  ship out early units to early orders with much lesser gear.. get the early word + extra sales out. then send the rest.
> 
> make any sense? or just over thinking things... u be the judge.


 


  Nope, you've lost your mind. Schiit is not purposely sending out units to people with lesser DACS. On another note, why would you think people with better dacs would buy the Bifrost? Why would others want to make a lateral move. I think you can assume a majority of the purchasers are looking to upgrade from lower end products.


----------



## Kremer930

From watching Schiit over the past year I think that anyone could confidently say that Jason would not employ this tactic.  Heck, he doesnt even want to accept pre-orders anymore since incurring uncontrollable delays from suppliers and the ensuing duress that it causes his customers.  
   
  There is possibly a concentration of lower end dac users receiving their Bifrosts first because they are the non-usb model orders shipping first.  For me personally, I dont really intend to use USB but ticked the box anyhow just so I could have a play and compare.  For budget users they may be more focussed on saving $100 instead.  Just a theory....
   
  But I am hanging out to compare to a higher end DAC.  I will only be able to compare to a Matric Mini-i and DacMagic too.
   
  If I owned a $800 DAC...I dont think that I would be inspired to upgrade to a DAC costing half the price based on pre-order comments.  It would take real comparisons from people who have used the higher end gear or my own in shop demo.
   
  Perhaps Skylabs review may tempt some higher end DAC owners to take the Bifrost plunge.
  
  Quote: 





29twenty said:


> how come all the early reviews are people coming from MUCH lesser dacs? marketing scheme? of course all initial reviews are glowing if theyre comign from portable/sub 150$ dacs. if it is marketing... its genius.  people im sure always talk to schiit about their gear and how theyre excited, etc.  if i were a company, id take that to my advantage.  ship out early units to early orders with much lesser gear.. get the early word + extra sales out. then send the rest.
> 
> make any sense? or just over thinking things... u be the judge.


----------



## Ham Sandwich

Quote: 





29twenty said:


> how come all the early reviews are people coming from MUCH lesser dacs? marketing scheme? of course all initial reviews are glowing if theyre comign from portable/sub 150$ dacs. if it is marketing... its genius.  people im sure always talk to schiit about their gear and how theyre excited, etc.  if i were a company, id take that to my advantage.  ship out early units to early orders with much lesser gear.. get the early word + extra sales out. then send the rest.
> 
> make any sense? or just over thinking things... u be the judge.


 


  You must be new to Head-Fi.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  This happens often with gear that is priced at a point that can appeal to budget-fi members.  No conspiracy by Schiit to stack the initial orders and shipping.  It's just normal operations here at Head-Fi.


----------



## ChavaC

I assume I got mine fairly early because I ordered non-usb the morning the preorder opened.
   
  And why would people downgrade to a lesser dac? I mean this is headfi... that would be like water flowing uphill.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





29twenty said:


> how come all the early reviews are people coming from MUCH lesser dacs? marketing scheme? of course all initial reviews are glowing if theyre comign from portable/sub 150$ dacs. if it is marketing... its genius.  people im sure always talk to schiit about their gear and how theyre excited, etc.  if i were a company, id take that to my advantage.  ship out early units to early orders with much lesser gear.. get the early word + extra sales out. then send the rest.
> 
> make any sense? or just over thinking things... u be the judge.


 

 According to a couple of these early impressions the Bifrost is a clear upgrade over the DacMagic, which is pretty close to price-compatible.


----------



## Argo Duck

All good points Kremer.
   
  FWIW, I have two DACs - the EE MiniMax and Jan's StageDAC - that cost more and I suppose might arguably be considered 'higher end'.
   
  Yet I preordered the bifrost anyway, because (a) what a good price and (b) I like the Lyr, let's see what their DAC can do.
   
  Anyway, I'm not sure my order (#101) is still in the works - the cc I use with Paypal expired two months ago. Although I updated it Paypal's message indicates the order's lapsed and I need to contact Schiit. Not a high priority ATM...


----------



## Argo Duck

Well, general relativity nearly got violated in my case 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Maybe the Paypal problem was the universe reacting to safeguard the laws of physics - and headfi!!
   
  Cheers!
  
  Quote: 





chavac said:


> I assume I got mine fairly early because I ordered non-usb the morning the preorder opened.
> 
> And why would people downgrade to a lesser dac? I mean this is headfi... that would be* like water flowing uphill.*


----------



## Br777

Quote: 





argo duck said:


> All good points Kremer.
> 
> FWIW, I have two DACs - the EE MiniMax and Jan's StageDAC - that cost more and I suppose might arguably be considered 'higher end'.
> 
> ...


 

 I used to own the Eastern Electric minimax - it was a great dac, and went for around $800 when i bought it.  I'll be very curious to see what happens if you compare it to the bifrost. 
   
  If the bifrost performed at that level.. wow.  though dont know if it could be expected to or not.


----------



## Argo Duck

Br777 - I think highly of the MiniMax too. It's my preferred headphone DAC ATM, with the StageDAC preferred with my speaker rig. I actually think the MM pairs better with Jan's Concerto than the StageDAC (hope he's not reading this <grin>).
   
  I'll certainly post a comparison once I get the bifrost - but that might be a while...hmm, maybe I'll contact Schiit and tell them to go ahead and re-charge if they have to


----------



## shack

Quote: 





hp300plus said:


> James Blake - James Blake:  ...There are even passages where you can hear he's been recording in his home (I think) as there's an ever so faint street noise / chatter in the background.


 

 Hey hp300plus thanks for the review, I'm also a huge fan of that album. I was just wondering which song was it that had you notice this background noise? I've never noticed it myself and I'd love to see if I can hear it just for fun.
   
  Thanks


----------



## wiinippongamer

Quote: 





29twenty said:


> how come all the early reviews are people coming from MUCH lesser dacs? marketing scheme? of course all initial reviews are glowing if theyre comign from portable/sub 150$ dacs. if it is marketing... its genius.  people im sure always talk to schiit about their gear and how theyre excited, etc.  if i were a company, id take that to my advantage.  ship out early units to early orders with much lesser gear.. get the early word + extra sales out. then send the rest.
> 
> make any sense? or just over thinking things... u be the judge.


----------



## Elysian

The Bifrost is a direct upgrade for folks using Fiio DACs and such.  I don't think you're going to be seeing people with Benchmarks, W4S DAC2, and PerfectWaves purchase the Bifrost unless it's for secondary systems.
   
  I'm interested in how the Bifrost performs for work and a possible gift for friends getting into audio.


----------



## tim3320070

I was suggesting a sounder course for upgrading of his system- if you people think $400 worth of (useless IMO) cables is better than top end headphones for listening I guess there's nothing to say. Calling me a troll was ignorant. I have tried quite a bit in the way of cables and there is essentially no difference between $4 Monoprice power cables (5 in my system) and $1000 power cables (other than being able to fend off a robber with the $1000 one more effectively). My electrical engineering friend laughs at the prospect.
   
  Good review.
   
  Back on topic now................................


----------



## ecohifi

Quote: 





argo duck said:


> All good points Kremer.
> 
> FWIW, I have two DACs - the EE MiniMax and Jan's StageDAC - that cost more and I suppose might arguably be considered 'higher end'.
> 
> ...


 


 I will be interested in your findings cause I have a mini max plus and have expressed interest in this dac


----------



## Br777

Well the bifrost certainly seems to pack in a lot more for the money than most dacs do, so any comparisons to higher end dacs that can be made will be very welcome.
   
  comparing dacs is quite difficult though, unless there are vast differences in quality between the two.  Of course any time you cant instantly a/b the job becomes harder as well.


----------



## Kremer930

AiDee. I would have loved to have seen a review comparing to minimax and the Bifrost. 
   
  And for what it is worth...I do think that there will be cases of people upgrading from more expensive dacs just as there was with the Lyr. Time will tell.


----------



## Maxvla

29twenty said:


> how come all the early reviews are people coming from MUCH lesser dacs? marketing scheme? of course all initial reviews are glowing if theyre comign from portable/sub 150$ dacs. if it is marketing... its genius.  people im sure always talk to schiit about their gear and how theyre excited, etc.  if i were a company, id take that to my advantage.  ship out early units to early orders with much lesser gear.. get the early word + extra sales out. then send the rest.
> 
> make any sense? or just over thinking things... u be the judge.




Not true.2 of the very earliest impressions were from DacMagic owners. The Dacmagic while, technically inferior due to the design's age, is more expensive. Sound wise the Bifrost spanks the Dacmagic.


----------



## hp300plus

@shack - it was track 7 "Give Me My Month" at around 1:45 (as the song is ending) you can hear it.  After hearing it a couple times again, it sounds like a TV or something, but muffled as if it's in another room.  You can also hear something similar at the beginning of the track with some footsteps too.  It just comes in super clear for me and it didn't before with the uDac2 - even the piano key presses (not the actual chords) come through super clear.
   
  To all the other Head-fi'ers providing thanks, your very welcome.  Glad I could do it.
   
  P.S. No conspiracies here. I still really like my uDac2 and it will find a new home at work now.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





maxvla said:


> Not true.2 of the very earliest impressions were from DacMagic owners. The Dacmagic while, technically inferior due to the design's age, is more expensive. Sound wise the Bifrost spanks the Dacmagic.


 

 Comparing apples to apples (including the USB option on the Bifrost), the DacMagic is actually $20 cheaper. But considering the difference between the USB receivers alone, you get a lot for that $20.


----------



## Maxvla

grokit said:


> Comparing apples to apples (including the USB option on the Bifrost), the DacMagic is actually $20 cheaper.




True but with the Dacmagic only coming in one configuration you are forced to buy the whole thing even if you won't use USB like I have not for a while. You can get a good sounding Bifrost in your hands for cheaper.


----------



## Butler

elysian said:


> The Bifrost is a direct upgrade for folks using Fiio DACs and such.  I don't think you're going to be seeing people with Benchmarks, W4S DAC2, and PerfectWaves purchase the Bifrost unless it's for secondary systems.
> 
> I'm interested in how the Bifrost performs for work and a possible gift for friends getting into audio.




A possible _gift for friends?_

Dang man, we need to be friends if you're dropping money like this on housewarming presents. 

Granted your housewarming gifts may be going to people in your neck of the woods, ie orange county/beverly hills.


----------



## Elysian

Those folks (OC/Beverly Hills) live down there with the Real Housewives   The Bay Area is Northern Cali.  Very different cultures and attitudes, along with 400 miles of separation.
   
  Not a surprise to hear that the Bifrost has advanced the price-performance ratio appreciably.  DACs are probably the part of the chain that technologically advances quicker than any other part of a setup.  I wouldn't recommend that most people drop more than $1-2k on a DAC except for a few rare exceptions.  It's encouraging to hear that so many think the Bifrost is a step ahead of the DacMagic.


----------



## Yuceka

Damit damn you head-fi. I like it. I like it A LOT. I knew I shouldn't even have opened the box that said Schiit on top. I hate myself and this website  
   
  I will come back with some impressions and comments but as I just found out that some drunk guy smashed my car while it was parked when I was out of town for a while. I'll be back after I take a look at it. But what I am hearing is REALLY good. 
   
  And about that conspiracy guy, yes sir you're right, Jason has watched me for a couple of years and looked at all of my pitiful DACs and then sent me a Biforst for... for free!!! Can you believe that? But I'm really impressed that you got us!


----------



## kongmw

i've been following this thread for a while now. looking to upgrade from my audinst mx1. man, i'd really appreciate some direct comparison between the bifrost and the audio-gd nfb2/3


----------



## wiinippongamer

Quote: 





yuceka said:


> and then sent me a Biforst for... for free!!!


 


  Really?


----------



## Yuceka

Quote: 





wiinippongamer said:


> Really?


 


  No


----------



## oneway23

I'm thinking of buying this DAC, but do any of you feel it would be a worthwhile improvement for a pair of $350 Audioengine A5s?
   
  My feeling is that I'd need better speakers in order to justify that same cost for a DAC...thoughts?


----------



## Br777

improvement over what?


----------



## estreeter

Quote: 





br777 said:


> improvement over what?


 


  I *think* he means 'given my speakers, is it worth spending another $350 on a DAC'.


----------



## oneway23

Quote:


estreeter said:


> I *think* he means 'given my speakers, is it worth spending another $350 on a DAC'.


 


  Granted, I should've been more clear, but yes, that's exactly what I'm going for.
   
  I'm currently feeding these A5s by going through the line out on an onboard Realtek ALC888S that supports up to 24/96
   
  I do have an optical toslink connection onboard to support higher-res files if need be that is currently going unused.
   
  Basically, does it make sense for me to spend $350-$450 on an external DAC like the BIFROST if my speakers cost the same?
   
  If the answer is yes, I'd obviously switch to the Toslink out.


----------



## agisthos

The Bifrost would want to be sounding better than the DacMagic, considering the DacMagic is priced with dealer margin included.
   
  I am hoping the Bifrost gets close in sound to the Dacs priced around $700-900, but there is a lot of good competition in that price range.


----------



## ecohifi

Quote: 





29twenty said:


> how come all the early reviews are people coming from MUCH lesser dacs? marketing scheme? of course all initial reviews are glowing if theyre comign from portable/sub 150$ dacs. if it is marketing... its genius.  people im sure always talk to schiit about their gear and how theyre excited, etc.  if i were a company, id take that to my advantage.  ship out early units to early orders with much lesser gear.. get the early word + extra sales out. then send the rest.
> 
> make any sense? or just over thinking things... u be the judge.


 

 Maybe its Shciit!!! or a Schiit marketing strategy!!!!  LOL


----------



## Jason Stoddard

Hey all, quick update:
   
  1. Shipping of Bifrost backorders continues to be slow--apologies again for the wait.
  2. However, we expect to start shipping the first USB units this week.
  3. All backorders will be cleared out in less than 2 weeks, by our current guesstimates.
   
  A conspiracy theory on which units we sent first? Well, uh, no. How would we know what DACs our customers have? It's not like we can map their real names to their forum handles. Here's how we ship Bifrost:
   
  1. Oldest orders first.
  2. Non-USB first, because that's what we have.
  3. USB units ASAP.
  4. Review units.
   
  Again, sorry for the wait, but we'll be catching up more quickly now.


----------



## Killbox

My invoice says:  [size=8.5pt]Invoice number 30-0153.   So am I 30 or 153 in [/size]queue?


----------



## leesure

So the USB-equipped-unit ship date slipped again?  I thought they were supposed to start shipping late last week.  Am I remembering wrong?  Does 'we expect to start shipping the first USB units this week.' mean Monday or Friday?
   
  Sorry for the impatience, but I sold my last DAC 6 weeks ago in anticipation of getting the Bifrost and it's getting....well...you understand.


----------



## eclein

*Jason thanks for the update!!!!!*


----------



## RazorJack

Quote: 





argo duck said:


> FWIW, I have two DACs - the EE MiniMax and Jan's StageDAC - that cost more and I suppose might arguably be considered 'higher end'.
> 
> Yet I preordered the bifrost anyway, because (a) what a good price and (b) I like the Lyr, let's see what their DAC can do.


 


  If you're going to compare the Schiit Bifrost against Meier's Stagedac, I'm looking forward to reading your impressions!


----------



## rrahman

x2
  
  Quote: 





razorjack said:


> If you're going to compare the Schiit Bifrost against Meier's Stagedac, I'm looking forward to reading your impressions!


----------



## Maxvla

leesure said:


> So the USB-equipped-unit ship date slipped again?  I thought they were supposed to start shipping late last week.  Am I remembering wrong?  Does 'we expect to start shipping the first USB units this week.' mean Monday or Friday?
> 
> Sorry for the impatience, but I sold my last DAC 6 weeks ago in anticipation of getting the Bifrost and it's getting....well...you understand.




Latest info from Jason is that the usb boards are not in shop yet, but they expect to have cleared all Bifrost pre-orders within 2 weeks.

Another tidbit most probably expected, but it came up in conversation was that the statement Dac will not use tubes. Also it is not too far from being done as it was actually the first one Mike started on. It will likely be announced Q1 2012. After hearing the Bifrost in my home I can't wait to hear the statement.


----------



## ecohifi

Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> Hey all, quick update:
> 
> 1. Shipping of Bifrost backorders continues to be slow--apologies again for the wait.
> 2. However, we expect to start shipping the first USB units this week.
> ...


 

 Hey Jason,
   
  how about if you dont ship the USB version by this week ya reckon you could keep customer satisfaction by shipping it free!!!!
  LOL
   
  To think I haven't even ordered one yet!!!!
   
  Just kidding


----------



## ecohifi

Quote: 





wiinippongamer said:


> Really?


 


  +1
   send one free to downunder!!!!!


----------



## 45longcolt

To Echohifi- I think we agree about components, cables and that sort of thing. They do make a difference. I experiment as time and money permit. And while I am symphathetic to the argument that wire is wire, when I tried a $100 Shunyata power cord to my amp and heard the results, well, theory had to put its tail between its legs and slink away.
   
  Would I spend $500 or $1,000 for a power cord or an interconnect? Not until I win the lottery. But moderately priced cables, cords and a power conditioner have brought real benefits that I enjoy nearly every day.
   
  When it comes to equipment such as DACs, and the fellow with the AudioEngine speakers (hope I got that right) asking if the upgrade makes sense - well, if the speakers can convey the differences between, say, low sampling rate MP3 files and AIFF or hi-rez files (or CDs), then they are good enough to let you hear the effect of a new DAC. The question of value is yours to answer.
   
  My current DAC is a PS Audio DL III with phase 4 mods by Cullen Circuits, and I've enjoyed it greatly. But I suspect the Bifrost will be different and potentially better because (A) it is built according to a different philosophy, and (B) it's simply newer. As someone else pointed out, digital gear is changing and advancing at an astonishing rate.
   
  For me, the owner of a Lyr, the Bifrost is a worthwhile experiment. Jason said mine should ship Monday, so hopefully by Wednesday I'll know for sure.


----------



## NumLock

Quote: 





rrahman said:


> x2


 


   


  Quote: 





razorjack said:


> If you're going to compare the Schiit Bifrost against Meier's Stagedac, I'm looking forward to reading your impressions!


 


   
  +1


----------



## estreeter

Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> Hey all, quick update:
> 
> 1. Shipping of Bifrost backorders continues to be slow--apologies again for the wait.
> 2. However, we expect to start shipping the first USB units this week.
> ...


 


  Thanks for the update Jason, and please disregard the lone voice from Crazytown. If there is one absolute on Head-Fi, its that you wont be able to please all of the nutters any of the time. Just keep pumping out kit at the prices you have been and people will beat a path to your door.


----------



## estreeter

Quote: 





29twenty said:


> how come all the early reviews are people coming from MUCH lesser dacs? marketing scheme? of course all initial reviews are glowing if theyre comign from portable/sub 150$ dacs. if it is marketing... its genius.  people im sure always talk to schiit about their gear and how theyre excited, etc.  if i were a company, id take that to my advantage.  ship out early units to early orders with much lesser gear.. get the early word + extra sales out. then send the rest.
> 
> make any sense? or just over thinking things... u be the judge.


 


  I realise that post count ain't everything, but for someone with 3 posts to his name you certainly seem happy to wade into a thread with both feet firmly in your mouth. Thanks for playing.


----------



## Argo Duck

Br777's point that DACs can be hard to compare at the best of times is well made. However, I'm happy to do what I can within sensible limits. Also following Br777's lead, there are three straightforward impressions to give, to wit:
  a) it sounds a lot "worse" 
  b) it sounds a lot "better" 
  c) about the same and it will take a lot more time to say in what ways exactly
   
  Obviously even (c) will be a good outcome given the price ratios compared to StageDAC and especially MiniMax.
   
  I emailed Schiit concerning the Paypal problem - it's all fine. BTW, Jason answered within about 6 hours, on a Sunday!
   
  So, all being well I hope to have some sort of report in perhaps two weeks...


----------



## Hero Kid

Quote: 





argo duck said:


> [...] I emailed Schiit concerning the Paypal problem - it's all fine. [...]


 

 I am sorry, I must have missed it, but what PayPal problem are we talking about here? I am simply curious.


----------



## judmarc

Quote: 





hero kid said:


> I am sorry, I must have missed it, but what PayPal problem are we talking about here? I am simply curious.


 


 Probably the same thing that shows on my account info at Schiit: My PayPal authorization is shown as expired, but I'm not certain about the timing (does it auto-expire after the initial authorization to prevent re-charging?), and I'm still shown as being in pre-order status, with an order number, so that seems to indicate things are OK.  However, I would also like to know, rather than bugging Jason, what the answer is that AiDee received.  Do I need to authorize re-charge of my credit card, or do I just sit tight at current status and everything will be all right?


----------



## ddoyle777

Sit tight.
  The same thing happened to me.  I got an email from Schiit saying I needed to re-authorize my Paypal credit with a link.  I did that and my Bifrost was shipped the next day.  I'll bet the same happens to you when it's ready to ship.
   
  Now if it didn't take FedEx 8 days to traverse the country I could tell you how it sounds!


----------



## Killbox

Hope to get a tracking number within this week  order: #30 non-usb.  Been waiting since late June. About time to get a proper dac now.


----------



## Edoardo

Quote: 





argo duck said:


> Br777 - I think highly of the MiniMax too. It's my preferred headphone DAC ATM, with the StageDAC preferred with my speaker rig. I actually think the MM pairs better with Jan's Concerto than the StageDAC (hope he's not reading this <grin>).
> 
> I'll certainly post a comparison once I get the bifrost - but that might be a while...hmm, maybe I'll contact Schiit and tell them to go ahead and re-charge if they have to


 

 + 1


----------



## Argo Duck

Like many I suppose I logged in (about 3 days ago) to check status. Still on preorder (I'm order 101, non-USB), and a note similar to judmarc's.
   
  Then logged into paypal where there was a message the order had expired - they probably have a time limit - and I would need to contact Schiit.
   
  Honestly, I wasn't sure this would be a real problem. Might be just procedural. However, I knew my card's expiry date had passed and I was a bit slow updating it at paypal. I emailed Schiit to check, in view of the interest in the MiniMax & StageDac. I wouldn't have bothered Schiit otherwise. Jason was responsive as usual. *Looks like there's no problem.*
   
  For judmarc and others in this situation, I emailed:...I have a message in Paypal saying 'the order as expired' and I need to contact you. This may be just normal process, but *just in case* please go ahead and re-charge if you have to.
   
  Jason: No worries, we'll contact you when we're ready to ship.
   
  Quote: 





hero kid said:


> I am sorry, I must have missed it, but what PayPal problem are we talking about here? I am simply curious.


----------



## ecohifi

Quote: 





45longcolt said:


> To Echohifi- I think we agree about components, cables and that sort of thing. They do make a difference. I experiment as time and money permit. And while I am symphathetic to the argument that wire is wire, when I tried a $100 Shunyata power cord to my amp and heard the results, well, theory had to put its tail between its legs and slink away.
> 
> Would I spend $500 or $1,000 for a power cord or an interconnect? Not until I win the lottery. But moderately priced cables, cords and a power conditioner have brought real benefits that I enjoy nearly every day.
> 
> ...


 


 Thanks for the input, cant wait to you post your findings on this dac.  The AKM dac chip is not new, but the cost of this Bitfrost has got me on edge.  I started of with a gigaworks dac at $69US and now I have a mini max plus,  to be honest I think the gigawork PCM 1798 is the best value for money and I am looking for something that has the same impact hopefully this Bitfrost will do it?  The mini max wilth the Sabre 9018 is more detailed and refined in the top end but thats it!


----------



## sridhar3

If somebody wants to bring a Bifrost to the NY meet in November, you can A/B it against my Cary Xciter ($1500, uses the same AKM4399 DAC chip).  I heard the Bifrost/Lyr/HE-6 setup at CanJam (by comparison, I use Xciter/Lyr/HE-6 at home), but it was using different tubes than I have (6BZ7 at the show, S&H CCa at home), so it wasn't a particularly useful comparison.  Overall, the DAC performs well and sounds good, though I can't say much more than that.


----------



## judmarc

Quote: 





sridhar3 said:


> If somebody wants to bring a Bifrost to the NY meet in November, you can A/B it against my Cary Xciter ($1500, uses the same AKM4399 DAC chip).  I heard the Bifrost/Lyr/HE-6 setup at CanJam (by comparison, I use Xciter/Lyr/HE-6 at home), but it was using different tubes than I have (6BZ7 at the show, S&H CCa at home), so it wasn't a particularly useful comparison.  Overall, the DAC performs well and sounds good, though I can't say much more than that.


 


 So would I be correct in thinking you paid more for two S&H CCa tubes than for the Lyr in which you installed them?


----------



## sridhar3

Quote:


judmarc said:


> So would I be correct in thinking you paid more for two S&H CCa tubes than for the Lyr in which you installed them?


 

 No, you would not be correct.


----------



## obazavil

Quote: 





sridhar3 said:


> Quote:
> No, you would not be correct.


 


  Actually... with mullards + valvo + 2 sets of lorenz, i spent more than the Lyr itself
   
  I think is pretty "normal" (sadly) that this happens


----------



## Misterrogers

Quote: 





obazavil said:


> Actually... with mullards + valvo + 2 sets of lorenz, i spent more than the Lyr itself
> 
> I think is pretty "normal" (sadly) that this happens


 


  Yep, It's very easy to spend a ton on tubes. I don't even want to add up the cost of mine.


----------



## judmarc

Quote: 





sridhar3 said:


> Quote:
> No, you would not be correct.


 


 Then you got a deal.


----------



## HK_sends

My best guestimate is I spent $1536.32 on tubes including shipping... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  I could have bought 3/4 of a set of LCD-3s if I had waited until being told about the Lorenz tubes.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



_*EDIT* ...more like $2200, so I could have gotten the whole banana...  _
  Cheers!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (as long as you buy the drink...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)
  -HK sends
   
   
  PS - But I wouldn't have had as much fun...


----------



## pseudohippy

Quote: 





hk_sends said:


> My best guestimate is I spent $1536.32 on tubes including shipping...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 How much do you think you recovered and how much do you still have in tubes. If you buy the LCD 3 you might just have to do it all over again.


----------



## HK_sends

Quote:


pseudohippy said:


> How much do you think you recovered and how much do you still have in tubes. If you buy the LCD 3 you might just have to do it all over again.


 
  I think I recovered about $600-800 and I've kept 6 sets of Lorenz and 1 set of Telefunken PCC88s (with $700 invested in those).  Actually, now that I think about it, I spent closer to $2200. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  But I did let the rest go for pretty cheap to other Head-Fi'ers to give them a chance to try different tubes.  Call me a philanthropist or a complete idiot...take your pick. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  Honestly, I think the Lorenz would pair just as well with the LCD-3s (based on initial impressions I've read)...
   
  Cheers!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  -HK sends


----------



## yeemanz

Quote: 





hk_sends said:


> Quote:
> I think I recovered about $600-800 and I've kept 6 sets of Lorenz and 1 set of Telefunken PCC88s (with $700 invested in those).  Actually, now that I think about it, I spent closer to $2200.
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Hehe, so that's where all the Lorenz tubes went


----------



## HK_sends

Quote:


yeemanz said:


> Hehe, so that's where all the Lorenz tubes went


 
  I just wanted to make sure I had a set of backups...then backups for my backups...then backups to backup the backup backups...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Cheers!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  -HK sends


----------



## mmayer167

if myn ever die you might get a pm hehe. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  M


----------



## obazavil

Quote: 





hk_sends said:


> Quote:
> I just wanted to make sure I had a set of backups...then backups for my backups...then backups to backup the backup backups...
> 
> 
> ...


 

 LOL
   
  Because of HK_sends I had to buy mine half a month sooner than expected  (last 3 when I bought mine)


----------



## HK_sends

Quote:


obazavil said:


> LOL
> 
> Because of HK_sends I had to buy mine half a month sooner than expected  (last 3 when I bought mine)


 
  The real problem is now that I spent all that money on tubes, I have to wait before I can get a Bifrost.  My wallet needs time to recover from being bled dry. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Cheers!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  -HK sends
  
  ...Of course, if Jason were to let me review one...


----------



## eclein

Do any of the folks with a Bifrost currently in their system have any more early impressions???


----------



## Argo Duck

And indeed, how many have theirs? Has the trickle stopped?
   
  Edit: Oops, I should check my personal email more often...received paypal request to reauthorize expired payment earlier today.
   
  We're up to order #101, non-USB. Guess I'll see it in about a week if it's not held up in customs


----------



## Maxvla

eclein said:


> Do any of the folks with a Bifrost currently in their system have any more early impressions???




Still sounding great. Some orchestral recordings I really didn't care to listen to before because they sounded too rough with the Dacmagic are nice and clean now and I'm loving them once again. Quite a difference with the Bifrost.


----------



## agisthos

My order was non USB in the mid 200's and is almost shipping (got paypal confirmation link)


----------



## Kremer930

So still no USB units received?  My Lyr is at risk of rusting since I sold my DacMagic.


----------



## yeemanz

Just got my Bifrost today yay!
   
  First impressions from a person with no audiophile speak....
   
  My setup is in my sig.
   
  Coming from no external DAC I was quite eager to hear what kind of difference having one would make. After a bit of effort setting up and panic when there was no sound...I realized that I hadn't push the coax fully in...doh...
   
  Anyway, my music sounds more 'polished' with more clarity. For some songs I am also hearing a few extra layers that wasn't present before.
  Still only a few hours into checking out the Bifrost, will have to update after listening to it some more.
   
  So overall, very happy with the Bifrost


----------



## dyl1dyl

Quote: 





yeemanz said:


> Just got my Bifrost today yay!
> 
> First impressions from a person with no audiophile speak....
> 
> ...


 

 Thats great, nice impressions.


----------



## 45longcolt

Hey guys, what are these Lorentz tubes, and where does one get them? (Almost afraid to ask about cost.)
   
  As to the Bifrost, and the question of how much one spends on a DAC, you must keep in mind that the chip is only the beginning. You can have the hottest IC on the planet, but if the power supply, circuit layout and quality aren't up to snuff, the sound will be compromised. Not to mention the design choices that can be legitimately argued either way.
   
  For example, lots of DACs upsample. (As I understand it, oversampling looks at the data more often that 44.1, i.e. 96 or 192 hz., where upsampling also converts the signal to an an approximation of 24 or even 32 bits from the original 16.) Jason viscerally condemns this practise. Other DACs go even more old school, using "antique" NOS chips and omitting filters and such that most consider mandatory. Yet some listeners feel these "stone age" units have something special. (See the vintage DAC thread elsewhere on head-fi.)
   
  I'll be comparing my Bifrost (c'mon, c'mon Fedex) to the PS Audio (upsampling) and the built-in DAC of my player (Marantz 8004, pretty new) which also accepts other inputs including USB. Marantz apparently feels pretty confident in their DAC, and I can hear why. Right now, I go back and forth, with the PSA sounding more "analog" while on some tracks the built-in seems to have an extra edge on attack. Looking foward to seeing what the Bifrost will bring to the table.


----------



## judmarc

_(As I understand it, oversampling looks at the data more often that 44.1, i.e. 96 or 192 hz., where upsampling also converts the signal to an an approximation of 24 or even 32 bits from the original 16.)_
   
  Almost, not quite.  Both oversampling and upsampling relate to the sampling rate (44.1 and 48kHz and multiples thereof) rather than the bit depth (16, 24 or 32 bits).  The bit depth has to do with dynamic (loudness) range.
   
  As for what the difference is between oversampling and upsampling, there is a tremendous amount of confusing discussion, because not even engineers agree on the proper terms.  As a layperson's definition, subject to the provisos that this is just my opinion and I don't have any expertise on the subject, I've seen "oversampling" used more often to relate to a whole-number multiplication of sampling rate at an earlier stage of the analog-digital-analog conversion process, and "upsampling" used more often to refer to an arbitrary (not necessarily whole-number, used to raise various input sampling rates to a particular output sampling rate) multiplication of sampling rate at a later stage in the process.  Both are done, I believe, with the intent of allowing filters to be used (particularly with 44.1 and 48kHz material) that will help achieve a better-sounding analog signal at the end of the process.  The use of what I've chosen here to call "upsampling" seems to be more recent and more controversial than what I'm calling "oversampling."  "8x oversampling" was virtually a standard in DACs for a couple of decades.
   
  My guess is that the Bifrost doesn't do what I'm calling "upsampling," but I'd be extremely interested to hear from Jason/Mike more definitively.


----------



## Jason Stoddard

Hey all,
   
  To answer the above question, we do *not* do asynchronous sample rate conversion, or "upsampling." We're philosophically opposed to it, since it destroys all the original samples in the recording. Of course, so do successive-approximation D/A converters (aka delta-sigma--pretty much every major converter on the market today--Sabre, Wolfson, AKM.) Although we cannot do anything about the converter, we choose to preserve the original samples as far down the chain as possible. 
   
  However, the AKM D/A does perform oversampling. Oversampling is done by the digital filter preceeding the delta-sigma modulator, and the amount of oversampling varies by sample rate.  
   
  All the best,
  Jason


----------



## Wedge

Jason, any better of an idea when the USB units will ship?


----------



## Butler

wedge said:


> Jason, any better of an idea when the USB units will ship?




Hasn't this already been said multiple times? So many people are frothing at the mouth about this. Don't get me wrong, I have a USB one ordered too, but people just need to sit back a take a breather. We're lucky to have this personal relationship with industry insiders, but we have to be conscious of being … well… annoying.


----------



## Jason Stoddard

USB? We're finally getting boards in tomorrow, so if they test well . . . Friday!
   
  We may have *all* non-USB preorders shipped by then, too. Friday, that is. Things are moving much faster now--thanks for your patience, and apologies again for the delay.


----------



## Wedge

Quote: 





butler said:


> Hasn't this already been said multiple times? So many people are frothing at the mouth about this. Don't get me wrong, I have a USB one ordered too, but people just need to sit back a take a breather. We're lucky to have this personal relationship with industry insiders, but we have to be conscious of being … well… annoying.


 

 For the record I have not bothered Schiit during all of this.  I prepaid in full at the pre order.  I've asked once, when it was coming.


----------



## Butler

wedge said:


> For the record I have not bothered Schiit during all of this.




And how is _another_ person asking going to change the outcome of an question that has been asked and answered multiple times different?


----------



## yeemanz

Quote: 





45longcolt said:


> Hey guys, what are these Lorentz tubes, and where does one get them? (Almost afraid to ask about cost.)


 


  Quite a few posts on this tube on the Lyr tube rolling thread
   
  They cost 50$ ea, but as far as I know, Tubemonger has run out of them or there are no matched pairs.


----------



## Misterrogers

Tubemongers had a bunch of them - all gone now. The gray PCC88 gray shields went for $50 each, and the trimica's went for $70 each. They're very very rare and difficult to find - the early Lorenz Stuttgart ones that is. I've been hunting them down for awhile now, and will have a couple of pairs of PCC88's trimica's available (one pair is spoken for), and the more rare and expensive E88CC ones. Think trimica+ 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Check my sig for my tube site. I'll be making my 'extra' tubes available their when I have them.
  
  Quote: 





45longcolt said:


> *Hey guys, what are these Lorentz tubes, and where does one get them? (Almost afraid to ask about cost.)*
> 
> As to the Bifrost, and the question of how much one spends on a DAC, you must keep in mind that the chip is only the beginning. You can have the hottest IC on the planet, but if the power supply, circuit layout and quality aren't up to snuff, the sound will be compromised. Not to mention the design choices that can be legitimately argued either way.
> 
> ...


----------



## deadkenny64

Well, it did elicit an updated response from Jason so I, for one, am glad he asked.
  
  Quote: 





butler said:


> And how is _another_ person asking going to change the outcome of an question that has been asked and answered multiple times different?


----------



## grokit

NvM


----------



## Wedge

Quote: 





butler said:


> And how is _another_ person asking going to change the outcome of an question that has been asked and answered multiple times different?


 

 The question last I checked was asked last week, where we were told hopefully next week, since now its next week, I got curious.


----------



## estreeter

Sensational ninja deletions from the mods in this thread.


----------



## Hero Kid

Quote: 





estreeter said:


> Sensational ninja deletions from the mods in this thread.


 
   
  I am obviously not paying enough attention because I am unsure what you are talking about...
  Could you PM me with an explanation?


----------



## hooked

Just got mine today (non-USB), was #56.  First time posting impressions ever, so be gentle.  Previous DAC was a Nuforce HDP and first impressions this is definitely an improvement.  What really jumped out at me on first listen, is the additional detail and a bigger soundstage.  New to this, but the music also sounds different, I assume more realistic, but I don't have very much experience listening to real instruments.  Naturally all this is IMO.  Having fun re-re-discovering my music collection which has grown and diversified somewhat after starting this hobby.  A keeper so far.  Time to do some breaking in. 
   
  As someone else has pointed out, there is a very faint click when changing tracks, not an issue for me though. 
  Like the pushbutton to change inputs vs the knob shown in the first Bifrost picture. 
  Looks good with the Lyr stacked on top. 
  The Bifrost gets warmer than I expected (I realize the case is used for a heatsink which is the reason for this). 
   
  I use the optical input for music and occasionally listen to the TV through headphones so I purchased this adapter to convert analog audio to digital coaxial.  Not for critical listening, but it does the job and allows me to use both inputs.  http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001ED2UTG


----------



## estreeter

Quote: 





hero kid said:


> I am obviously not paying enough attention because I am unsure what you are talking about...
> Could you PM me with an explanation?


 

 I'd prefer not to - suffice it to say that you haven't lost anything in terms of feedback on the BiFrost : we just had an uninvited guest and it seems that he has been shown the door. In hindsight, the mods did the right thing.


----------



## internethandle

Here's a pic/write-up of Jason and Rina at RMAF from Stereophile's site, where the Bifrost made an appearance:
   
   

   
   
   
  Quote: 





> Jason Stoddard and Rina Slayter presented a row of Schiit headphone amplifiers—Asgard ($249), Valhalla ($349), and Lyr ($449)—along with the Bifrost DAC ($449, with “buzzword-friendly” asynchronous USB input; $349, without USB input).
> 
> Schiit products are made in the US. Stoddard, responsible for the elegant casework and analog circuitry, explained that he keeps the designs super simple. Slayter is the “production master and head of operations.” On the Schiit website, you’ll find a picture of her preparing a chassis for assembly. All Schiit products must also pass her final listening tests. Mike Moffat, formerly of Theta, is responsible for the digital circuitry.
> 
> I listened through the Asgard to a track by Mark Hollis’s Talk Talk. The music and sound were lovely—smooth, easy, and entirely involving.


 
   
  Pretty good endorsement from Stereophile's Stephen Mejias for the Asgard + Bifrost treatment. 
   
  Here's a link to the original article:
   
http://www.stereophile.com/content/some-good-schiit


----------



## eclein

Jason and Rina!! -Great write-up in Stereophile, you guys know as well as I, its all about people and what people want- it could be called TOTAL SCHIIT!!! and as long as nice folks like you guys are behind it and strive to make it the best sounding DAC you can these guys will write about ya.....plus the name has a bit to do with it....a stroke of genius I might add!!!!!!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Now get my USB board in and ship those babies out!!!!!!!!!! Ed L.


----------



## judmarc

I _love_ Talk Talk - bought their first two USA-available LPs when they came out.  What was the material being demoed at RMAF?
   
  hooked - thanks very much for the writeup. 
   
_the music also sounds different, I assume more realistic, but I don't have very much experience listening to real instruments_
   
  One way to try to tell whether the music is sounding more realistic, though the fact that you're having fun re-listening to your music collection is a good hint in itself, is to pay attention to the "instrument" we're all most familiar with, the human voice.  If you've got any recordings, especially recent ones, that feature vocals that aren't overwhelmed by backing instruments or singers, see if you can hear details like phrasing, breathing, little changes in volume, etc., to a greater degree with the Bifrost than with your previous setup.  This is the sort of thing you'd be able to hear if the singer were in the room with you, so if you can hear more of it with the Bifrost, then I'd say yes, it's more realistic.


----------



## blankdisc

I had an opportunity to meet both Jason and Rina in person during the show. What a pleasure! Jason is definitely the coolest person in the room, and Rina is just so nice.  
  Also had a chance to listen to Bifrost. OMG, the details, the sound stage, and the treble/bass extension. I couldn't believe it first, so i actually took out my laptop and listened through my own HE-500.
  What did i think at the end? Well...I placed an order immediately.


----------



## sampson_smith

A very good exercise to point out, judmarc. Thanks! I am getting this close ("-->|<--") to ordering a Bifrost, which I hope will pair nicely with my WA6SE.  
  
  Quote: 





judmarc said:


> One way to try to tell whether the music is sounding more realistic, though the fact that you're having fun re-listening to your music collection is a good hint in itself, is to pay attention to the "instrument" we're all most familiar with, the human voice.  If you've got any recordings, especially recent ones, that feature vocals that aren't overwhelmed by backing instruments or singers, see if you can hear details like phrasing, breathing, little changes in volume, etc., to a greater degree with the Bifrost than with your previous setup.  This is the sort of thing you'd be able to hear if the singer were in the room with you, so if you can hear more of it with the Bifrost, then I'd say yes, it's more realistic.


----------



## leesure

Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> USB? We're finally getting boards in tomorrow, so if they test well . . . Friday!


 


  How did they test?


----------



## judmarc

Quote: 





leesure said:


> How did they test?


 


 leesure, I think you need to fly to CA immediately and volunteer to "live tweet" the USB tests.


----------



## Yuceka




----------



## Edoardo

Quote: 





yuceka said:


>


 

 Awesome! Congrats! Won't put any smiley because my envy is raging!


----------



## xxhaxx

Quote: 





yuceka said:


>


 


  Why is your LED blue?


----------



## HK_sends

Quote: 





edoardo said:


> Awesome! Congrats! Won't put any smiley because my envy is raging!


 
  Mine too... But my wallet is crying...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  -HK sends


----------



## bobeau

Quote: 





blankdisc said:


> I had an opportunity to meet both Jason and Rina in person during the show. What a pleasure! Jason is definitely the coolest person in the room, and Rina is just so nice.
> Also had a chance to listen to Bifrost. OMG, the details, the sound stage, and the treble/bass extension. I couldn't believe it first, so i actually took out my laptop and listened through my own HE-500.
> What did i think at the end? Well...I placed an order immediately.


 

 Interesting... I see you have an NFB-3.  Would you say the Bifrost operates on the same level or above?


----------



## sling5s

2X I too am interested as I have the NFB-3.  
  
  Quote: 





bobeau said:


> Interesting... I see you have an NFB-3.  Would you say the Bifrost operates on the same level or above?


----------



## kongmw

Quote: 





bobeau said:


> Interesting... I see you have an NFB-3.  Would you say the Bifrost operates on the same level or above?


 


  same here. i'd LOVE to hear about how Bifrost compares to NFB3


----------



## blankdisc

I think that it is only fair that I form any kind of opinion after i actually have Bifrost at hand and listen to it for couple days. My beloved NFB-3 deserves that. 
  That being said. I did hear some details and a bigger sound stage which i didn't remember hearing from my NFB-3. I used the same headphone (HE-500) and amp (Lyr) at the show, so it could only be the DAC.
  i ordered a non-USB version, so should have it soon. will report back.


----------



## leesure

Quote: 





yuceka said:


>


 

 Your profile lists "Schiit Bifrost (gone)"
   
  You dumped it already??


----------



## kongmw

Quote: 





blankdisc said:


> I think that it is only fair that I form any kind of opinion after i actually have Bifrost at hand and listen to it for couple days. My beloved NFB-3 deserves that.
> That being said. I did hear some details and a bigger sound stage which i didn't remember hearing from my NFB-3. I used the same headphone (HE-500) and amp (Lyr) at the show, so it could only be the DAC.
> i ordered a non-USB version, so should have it soon. will report back.


 


  please DO keep us posted! i'm kinda torn between the two right now... thanks!


----------



## 333jeffery

My order is in the 400's and it just shipped a few hours ago. I'm anxious to compare the Bifrost/Lyr combo to my Arcam FMJ cd player and Cambridge Audio preamp. The Arcam replaced an old Theta Pro Prime dac and Rotel cd player that I used for many years. I'm curious to see if the Bifrost can atleast equal it in sound quality. I've got HD600's, a DT880 and a DT990 Pro to try on it.


----------



## estreeter

Photos can be deceptive - the camera adds at least 50lbs to my svelte frame - but going on that shot I reckon Rina is more attractive than Ray Samuels. Sorry, Ray, but it had to be said.


----------



## livewire

Uh..... yeah!


----------



## agisthos

I had the NFB-2 earlier this year, but since then my speakers have changed to something much better, the Vapor Sound Cirrus, so a comparison between that and the Bifrost will not be fair.
   
  I currently have a CA-751 blu-ray player, which has what is essentially an onboard DacMagic. Wolfson dacs for each channel, and the same Anagram Q5 upsampling technology.


----------



## Temple

Congrats on your Cirrus Speakers. Mine are on order... Did you get the upgraded CAPS an Raal Core upgrade? Hope to place an oder for either the Bifrost or NFB-2 next...


----------



## agisthos

Quote:


temple said:


> Congrats on your Cirrus Speakers. Mine are on order... Did you get the upgraded CAPS an Raal Core upgrade? Hope to place an oder for either the Bifrost or NFB-2 next...


 

 Yes RAAL Amorphous core, V-Cap Teflon on the tweeter, V-Cap Copper on the woofer. Mundorf silver/gold wire on the tweeter. Hang in there, Ryan takes a while but likes to do things properly.... What are you getting?

 I have had a much better source and amplification chain in the past, so it is frustrating to have these speakers with a cheap integrated amp and blu-ray player. Getting the Bifrost is the next step to rebuilding my system.
   
  Most people here are going to use the Bifrost with cans, so I hope to offer another perspective.


----------



## Temple

Still on the fence about the Raal Core upgrade but going with the Clarity MR Caps.


----------



## Enthusia

Looks like he chose the HRT Music Streamer II over his Schiit Bifrost.
  
  Quote: 





leesure said:


> Your profile lists "Schiit Bifrost (gone)"
> 
> You dumped it already??


----------



## timmybob

Although I have been a long time browser, I joined today to add my thoughts as I must have one of the first shipped (non-USB, number 2!). I also listen through speakers so realise my experiences may be different to those who mainly listen through headphones.
   
  Over time, much of my music has seemed a little less satisfying to my ears and I had started to wonder if age changes were affecting my listening pleasure or whether my CD players (a 508 and a G08) were losing their touch. I know it is early days yet, and all changes take time to fully evaluate, but I have to say I am blown away. To say this DAC has lifted a veil would be an understatement. I know both my players are a little long in the tooth, but neither were slouches in this area in their hey-dey but neither can hold a candle to the Bifrost.
   
  This one definitely won't be going back!


----------



## HyperM3

Hey everyone,
  Ive never had a DAC before so Im not sure if I did this right or even needed it so I ask for guidance.
   
  I have a Krell s300i amp connected to Totem Hawks. I recently picked up a Logi Touch to stream all my lossless iTunes and Pandora. I was told that adding a DAC to the system would greatly improve the dynamics of my streaming music. After much research I ended up ordering this Schiit(currently on its way). I will probably connect my comcast cable box to this also hoping that might make a difference.
   
  So, am I doing this right? Will I notice a difference or did I buy a pretty paperweight?
   
  Thanks in advance.


----------



## timmybob

Your situation is similar to my own and I've noticed a difference. Switched all my listening to a Touch with the Bifrost


----------



## oneway23

I'm just wondering if anyone could please give me insight here.
   
  If i connect the BIFROST to the line-in on my audioengine A5s using an RCA Y connector, will this have an adverse effect on my sound quality?  I know the new A5+ have RCA line in, but mine only has the 3.5 jack.
   
  Any help greatly appreciated.


----------



## Zorlac

Its almost November...any news on the balanced DAC?


----------



## eclein

Why are there no folks saying anything about the shiny new DAC they just got??? Several people by now should have this piece, if nobodies talking about it, well I don't think thats a good thing?? If folks got the DACs and loved them this thread would be bulging at the seams?? Was this DAC a miss or are people just afraid to say??????????


----------



## Misterrogers

Whoa, ease up on the question marks 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I think for the most part, Schiit has struggled to ramp up supply due to vendors not delivering components when promised. I'd image quite a few customers ordered with the USB card, and those might start shipping today. I expect this forum will be exploding by end of next week. Everything I have heard has been good - can't wait for mine.
  
  Quote: 





eclein said:


> Why are there no folks saying anything about the shiny new DAC they just got??? Several people by now should have this piece, if nobodies talking about it, well I don't think thats a good thing?? If folks got the DACs and loved them this thread would be bulging at the seams?? Was this DAC a miss or are people just afraid to say??????????


----------



## pseudohippy

+1 to what Misterrogers is saying except it might be a little longer than that even before serious reviews start coming in. Even if my USB model ships Monday ill most likely not get it till Friday, maybe Monday, then most peeps will usually want at least two weeks with it first to really get to know the sound before making any definitive comments in fear they might have to redact later. The Lyr took time as well to get serious thought put out. Just be patient as the Quick Bunny always used to say.


----------



## Hero Kid

Quote: 





eclein said:


> Why are there no folks saying anything about the shiny new DAC they just got??? [...]


 
   
  Here is my speculation. Because this is a (somewhat) entry level DAC, most of the people buying them are not confident reviewers and/or do not feel comfortable posting their impressions.


----------



## Argo Duck

+2. I think there will be a large number of units in people's hands quite suddenly. And indeed, quite a lot of time will be needed before reliable impressions can be formed. While I'm waiting for mine to arrive, I'm going to get in shape by comparing the two DACs I've already got.


----------



## Jason Stoddard

Hey all, another update:
   
  1. USB boards are now in, and we're in the process of testing and burning them. First shipments are likely to happen Monday, not today as we'd planned. Apologies again.
   
  2. All non-USB pre-orders will be shipped by Wednesday under the current plan.
   
  3. Next week, we're hoping to get a couple of review units out, including one to Skylab (we talked him into waiting for USB--probably not our brightest move.)
   
  4. Balanced DAC and other stuff has been pushed out, so we can focus on Bifrost. It's likely we'll be in a short back-order period almost immediately on clearing pre-orders, so we're planning for additional production. It's kind of insane to introduce a new product at this time. I'm still confident we will announce this year.
   
  5. Lyr is in-stock again, and Asgard is on-target to be in-stock again next week. 
   
  All the best,
  Jason


----------



## estreeter

Thanks Jason.
   
  To those who are suspicious about the lack of reviews, consider this - neither 6Moons nor Headfonia have yet published a review of the BiFrost - that tells me that there simply arent enough units out there. Whatever your opinion of each of these sites, I dont know of anyone else who can get their hands on new (including prototype) kit and publish a review faster than those two. Happy to hear otherwise.


----------



## Kremer930

Awesome news Jason.  Thanks for continuing to keep us all updated.  I am sure that you will be much more relaxed and comfortable once all of these third party supplier issues are all behind you.  
   
  I am almost happy that the Statement gear may be pushed back slightly.  Gives me more time to save for it and enjoy my Lyr/Bifrost combo before getting distracted...


----------



## sridhar3

Quote: 





kremer930 said:


> Awesome news Jason.  Thanks for continuing to keep us all updated.  I am sure that you will be much more relaxed and comfortable once all of these third party supplier issues are all behind you.
> 
> I am almost happy that the Statement gear may be pushed back slightly.  Gives me more time to save for it and enjoy my Lyr/Bifrost combo before getting distracted *my wallet gets mercilessly raped again*.


 
   
  Fixed.


----------



## Kremer930

Ha ha ha ha.  Got it in one Sridhar3.  
   
  After RMAF I would say that there is likely to be a spike in such activities.  Before I was only going to be poor because of Schiit and their statement offering.  Now Audeze is trying to lure my wallet out of hiding too with the LCD3.  What chance does my wallet have!!


----------



## Temple

I am really curious to see how this DAC compares to the new EE MiniMax Plus. Hope to hear some feedback on that soon...


----------



## Argo Duck

Temple has anyone posted a comparison of the MM and MM-plus? I stopped monitoring that thread...


----------



## Temple

I have not seen one yet. I was monitoring the thread on AC and did not see any mention yet. So hard to make a decision with all the options out there. My other thought was to pick up an Off-Ramp 4 and use a the Bifrost with it. Might make a good combo. I have read nothing but good things on the Off-Ramp 4.


----------



## Yuceka

Quote: 





leesure said:


> Your profile lists "Schiit Bifrost (gone)"
> 
> You dumped it already??


 


  Ok to answer several questions first. 
   
  1) My LED is not really blue. It's exactly the same as the led you find in Lyr, Asgard and I assume Valhalla as well. 
   
  2) I did dump it already  My decision for selling was made even before getting the unit. The delay in shipping made it necessary to make some changes in my budget and financially I am not supposed to have it. So I had it for two days and people may say that it is not enough time to evaluate any product and I partially agree with that statement. However, here are a few words about Bifrost although I am not able to write reviews like some of the reviewers here. 
   
  I got the non-USB version to use it with my DVD player's coaxial out and my macbook Pro's optical out. Unfortunately I had sold my coaxial cable along with my previous DAC, Stello DA100 so I didn't get to use Bifrost with my computer but only with my DVD player. 
   
  I basically compared it with my main DAC which is HRT Music Streamer II. 
   
  Sony DVD Player + Bifrost + Lyr + Hifiman HE-5 / AKG K701 
   
  MacBook Pro + HRT Music Streamer II + Lyr + Hifiman HE-5 / AKG K701 
   
  I used various albums by Joshua Harris on CD with my DVD player and played the exact same songs ripped ALAC on my laptop via HRT Music Streamer. 
   
  Other music were various albums from the Box Set of Chopin and Telemann and Audioslave, and Norah Jones' Come Away With Me 
   
  I really liked the sound that was coming out of the first set up with Bifrost with classical music and Joshua Harris. However in some of the passages with drums and cello in Harris' albums, I preferred the presentation of Music Streamer better. Bifrost has a very very clean sound and the instrument separation and soundstage were strong straits of it. First, I thought that was due to my K701s but I had the same results when I switched to HE-5 which don't have a huge soundstage. What I don't mean is that Bifrost is creating a false sense of soundstage and it is not to a point where you can say that it's unrealistic. I've found Bifrost to be very true to the recording. I can't say that it is warm but it is not cold either but leaning towards that side a bit. 
   
  When I used my Hifiman HE-5 for all of the songs above, I found that when the passages get complex and there's too much guitar distortion, Bifrost was the clear winner in presenting the music clearer and the instruments being heard more precisely. 
   
  Yet, when I listened to all of the songs over and over again with those two set ups, I could say that Music Streamer is not inferior to Bifrost. It hasn't made me miss my wonderful Stello DA100 and in the end I couldn't justify the price difference between two products. I think for what it performs Bifrost is a great steal and the customer service Jason and his team provides is just awesome and I'll always have Schiit amps but on this one, I can be quite content with Music Streamer and not lose a whole lot by not owning the Bifrost. And judging by the comparison, I am curious as what Music Streamer II+ can do compared to Bifrost. 
   
  To sum up, with its price tag, synergy with my system, portability I decided to keep the Music Streamer and let Bifrost go. That DOES NOT mean I didn't like Bifrost but it didn't impress me too much either. Since then I sold both my K701 and Bifrost and it is funny how I keep ending up with the same rig (HRT + Lyr + HE-5) although I buy and sell a lot of stuff


----------



## leesure

Jason,
   
  Now that hyou will begin shipping the USB units, do you have a feel for how long it will take to clear the backorders on those?


----------



## eclein

I knew awhile ago no review units went out that wasn't my point..where are the head-fi folks who have these units and have been playing them for a few days. They are the folks I wonder about the people that buy them and live with them.
  Schiit makes excellent gear and probably will long after I'm gone*. I wasn't being suspicious of them at all or thinking anything other than-"Where's the head-fi'ers" Come on Head-fi folks who have these in house and playing them-"what do they sound like????? Help us FOLKS out that are waiting, throw us a bone, something to give us an idea of what we are in for!!!!*




*Head-fi brothers take off the cans and write a line or two here for us-waiters!!!! I'm too old for this Schiit!!!!!!*


----------



## estreeter

@Yuceka, I'm happy to hear 'initial impressions' after two days, but I dont believe you can definitively nail the sound signature of a component in such a short timeframe. I've owned two CA speaker amps that I would have returned after day two on the basis of my impressions at that time, but in the end the gear and my ears came to an understanding and I was happy I didn't. People can talk about 'flat frequency curves' and 'neutrality' till the cows come home, but those amps sounded way too bright to my ears initially. 
   
  Whatever physical burn-in theory you accept (or dont accept) with solid-state gear, there remains an adjustment period IMO, and its longer than 2 days. I am a big fan of the MSII, and fwir the MSII+ is very good vfm, but in this case I cant put much stock in 2 days worth of impressions.


----------



## Yuceka

Yeah I guess I should've kept quiet and not said anything


----------



## yeemanz

Quote: 





eclein said:


> I knew awhile ago no review units went out that wasn't my point..where are the head-fi folks who have these units and have been playing them for a few days. They are the folks I wonder about the people that buy them and live with them.
> Schiit makes excellent gear and probably will long after I'm gone*. I wasn't being suspicious of them at all or thinking anything other than-"Where's the head-fi'ers" Come on Head-fi folks who have these in house and playing them-"what do they sound like????? Help us FOLKS out that are waiting, throw us a bone, something to give us an idea of what we are in for!!!!*
> 
> 
> ...


 


  There have been a few first impressions of the Bifrost scattered throughout the thread, albiet not that many.


----------



## Snips

Quote: 





blankdisc said:


> I think that it is only fair that I form any kind of opinion after i actually have Bifrost at hand and listen to it for couple days. My beloved NFB-3 deserves that.
> That being said. I did hear some details and a bigger sound stage which i didn't remember hearing from my NFB-3. I used the same headphone (HE-500) and amp (Lyr) at the show, so it could only be the DAC.
> i ordered a non-USB version, so should have it soon. will report back.


 


  I myself might order the Bifrost to compare with my  NFB-3. Not available locally yet though, so I'll wait


----------



## Argo Duck

On the contrary. Useful information in your review - for example it's doubtful burn-in would change aspects such as clean sound, separation and soundstage for the worse!
   
  estreeter has a point and made it well, but you made the right decision for you. Glad you posted. Thanks!
   
  Edit: in reply to Yuceka of course


----------



## olor1n

Quote: 





yuceka said:


> Yeah I guess I should've kept quiet and not said anything


 


  While I normally advocate spending time with any component for proper evaluation, I think your post had some merit. You weren't scathing of the Bifrost and clearly divulged your reasons for letting it go. It'll probably be drowned out soon by the trigger happy endorsements, but the counterpoint you've provided should be of some value to discerning readers.


----------



## caracara08

Quote: 





yuceka said:


> Ok to answer several questions first.
> 
> 1) My LED is not really blue. It's exactly the same as the led you find in Lyr, Asgard and I assume Valhalla as well.
> 
> ...


 

  
  finally a true review..  people wont agree on a product because people see things differently.  i view this and schiit products as all competing around its price range. theyre not spectacular but if someone sees it as spectacular and competing out of its price range, then power to them. the simple fact is that they really dont.


----------



## 45longcolt

Some people have asked for impressions, others declare it's too soon, but I'll wade in based on about 8 hours of listening to mostly rock and jazz. Classical will come once I stop running back and forth digging out old faves, which may be awhile. And maybe that tells you something.
   
  System is Marantz SA8004 player > Black Cat coax > Schiit Bifrost > Audioquest interconnects > Schiit Lyr > Norse 8-strand cable > Audeze LCD2 Rev. 2. 
   
  Caveats: Haven't heard any $5K - $12K DACS in my system, and my ears ain't golden. Current DAC is PS Audio DLIII w/Cullen Circuits mods ($1.5K when new, less now.)
   
  First word that came to mind was Slam. This is a good thing. Bifrost propels the music along, moreso than the DLIII. Bifrost is also very good at communicating all parts of a note - the instant start, the main event and the fade whether quick or sustained. I suspect that if you are a percussion fan, this DAC could be your new best friend.
   
  Tonally, I haven't caught it out. Horns sound like horns; with full body, and bite when called for.
   
  There's at least as much detail as the DLIII, but the Bifrost does seem to separate instruments a little better. Are those two guitars, tuned almost identically? You will have no doubt. Did the vocalist overdub herself? You'll know. LCD2s aren't known for their soundstaging, but with the Bifrost there seems to be as much spread as is on the recording.
   
  Voices are lovely (where that's the appropriate adjective.) Of course the LCDs are known for vocal prowess. Kate Bush's voice can be screechy when poorly reproduced. (Some would say all the time, to which I reply (1) she hasn't always been well recorded, and (2) be nice.) Her 1989 album The Sensual World is one I always thought had been digitally recorded, with about as much depth and color as faded wallpaper. Only recently did I discover it was analog. On the reissue SW CD (from her 2011 Director's Cut deluxe set) her voice is rendered most agreeably by the Bifrost, with her inflections and edge intact, but without the teeth-on-edge quality that comes with inferior reproduction.
   
  Bifrost is good at that sort of balancing act. Tinkly high piano notes are sharp and clean as an ice-cold martini down the gullet, but never sharp like an ice pick into the ear canal.
   
  All told, I'm so far very pleased with the unit and would recommend it for the sound. Not to mention the company's customer service and the Made in USA cachet. And the great value.
   
  Listening over the main speakers comes next. Somehow I doubt I'll get much done this weekend...


----------



## Kremer930

That is a big claim.  I think that there would be many that would disagree.  Just because someone decides to keep a HRT after two days when they had already provided a financial reason to sell it prior to even comparing isnt a solid basis to support a conclusion.
  
  Quote: 





caracara08 said:


> finally a true review..  people wont agree on a product because people see things differently.  i view this and schiit products as all competing around its price range. theyre not spectacular but if someone sees it as spectacular and competing out of its price range, then power to them.* the simple fact is that they really dont.*


----------



## sridhar3

Quote:


caracara08 said:


> finally a true review..  people wont agree on a product because people see things differently.  i view this and schiit products as all competing around its price range. theyre not spectacular but if someone sees it as spectacular and competing out of its price range, then power to them. the simple *fact* is that they really dont.


 

 Lol @ use of the word "fact" to describe a cognitive and emotional response to a purely subjective sensory experience.


----------



## Kremer930

Thanks for your response.  This is one of the first comparisons against a harder end segment dac...although technology marches pretty quickly in this area I suspect.  But thanks for your comments.  I will be very pleased if I am even half as happy as what you appear to be.  
  
  Quote: 





45longcolt said:


> Some people have asked for impressions, others declare it's too soon, but I'll wade in based on about 8 hours of listening to mostly rock and jazz. Classical will come once I stop running back and forth digging out old faves, which may be awhile. And maybe that tells you something.
> 
> System is Marantz SA8004 player > Black Cat coax > Schiit Bifrost > Audioquest interconnects > Schiit Lyr > Norse 8-strand cable > Audeze LCD2 Rev. 2.
> 
> ...


----------



## ecohifi

Quote: 





argo duck said:


> On the contrary. Useful information in your review - for example it's doubtful burn-in would change aspects such as clean sound, separation and soundstage for the worse!
> 
> estreeter has a point and made it well, but you made the right decision for you. Glad you posted. Thanks!
> 
> Edit: in reply to Yuceka of course


 

 If there is no WOW factor that there are distict improvements of what you have, then one must decide whether it is good value and worth keeping.  I have notice that  it may take a while for you to notice improvements over what you already have, and when it gets to that stage I begin to question myself whether it is worthwhile keeping or let go. 
  I will one day prove the theory of burn-in with SS components, because every review I have read has a mention of burn-in!  But every reviewer have never explained to me, that they have proved that burning in actually happens and SQ improves.  So as far as I'm concern I will be happy with first impressions.  If there is a WOW factor and there are noticeable improvements compared to what you already have then it is a +.


----------



## Edoardo

- Listening to SS components for the first time
  - semi-counscious expectations for a WOW factor
  - No WOW factor
  - initial delusion
  - following critical listening 
  - it sounds good
  - therefore, SS burn-in must exist


----------



## ecohifi

Quote: 





45longcolt said:


> Some people have asked for impressions, others declare it's too soon, but I'll wade in based on about 8 hours of listening to mostly rock and jazz. Classical will come once I stop running back and forth digging out old faves, which may be awhile. And maybe that tells you something.
> 
> System is Marantz SA8004 player > Black Cat coax > Schiit Bifrost > Audioquest interconnects > Schiit Lyr > Norse 8-strand cable > Audeze LCD2 Rev. 2.
> 
> ...


 

*45longcolt,*
   
  very well written.
   
  Looking forward in reading your follow up!!!
   
  C'mom Bitfrost owners,  people like me are still starving for your experience and impressions on this Bitfrost Schiit!!!


----------



## ecohifi

Quote: 





edoardo said:


> - Listening to SS components for the first time
> - semi-counscious expectations for a WOW factor
> - No WOW factor
> - initial delusion
> ...


 

 This still does't prove that burn-in exist.


----------



## Edoardo

Quote: 





ecohifi said:


> This still does't prove that burn-in exist.


 
   
  Of course not... In the SS/IC world, Nothing does, IMHO...


----------



## ddoyle777

Reflections on 4 days in and the Bifrost.
   
  My system currently is a MacBook Pro > optical out > Bifrost > Arcam A85 > Lyr > LCD-2 Rev 2. My speakers are B&W Monitors
   
  I replaced an early HeadRoom MicroDac with the Bifrost.
   
  My first response is that the music is sweeter and smoother with the Bifrost - it sounds more like music.  There was a harshness that did not sound musical with the HeadRoom Dac, especially on piano.  It was not an aggressive harshness or I'd have dumped the HeadRoom long ago.  But the Bifrost seems to round the sharp edges off and the final product is easier to listen to.  The more I listen the more impressed with the piano on this Dac.  I'm wrestling with using "sweetness" here as I do not want to convey that the final product is in any way syrupy.  It's sort of like when you taste something and it's just a bit tart, when you weren't expecting tart.  You add a bit of sweeter and then your tongue says, "Ah, this is what I was expecting."  My ears have had the same experience.  Ah, this is more like music than the former was.
   
  I haven't noticed a huge difference in sound stage but I think the separation between instruments is better.  So far I've only listened to my best classical stuff where the recording was top notch.
   
  The only listening downside I've found is that some of my Bach organ is a little tamer.  There isn't the same "blart" in the pedal that is in the recording.  I think the digital edge from the HeadRoom gave it a slight edge, or else I'm listening at lower levels because of the musical clarity and the LCD2s need a bit more power.   I still need to listen more, and I'll continue to do so.  Mainly I've been listening to my favorites and that could bias my feelings.
   
  Another thing I've found is that my tinnitus doesn't seem to flare as quickly.  I can listen longer without saying, "oops, my ears are starting to ring."  That used to happen fairly quickly - usually within 30 min.  Now, I stop as listen after a couple of hours and I don't notice it.  Again, perhaps it is because I am listening at lower levels.  But I don't' usually listen at loud levels, and generally turn the volume down when I notice ringing.  I don't really understand the mechanics of tinnitus, so I could be totally out to lunch here - all I can do is report my observations.   
   
  I do wish it didn't have the click when it starts - I haven't gotten used to it so I go looking for what made the noise until I remember the Dac clicks.  I imagine I'll get used to it in time.
   
  Bottom Line - this is better than the early HeadRoom Dac and I feel like it's a steal.  It's musical, and it's not going back!  Besides, how many folks can claim a matched piece of schiit in their study!


----------



## sampson_smith

Quote:


edoardo said:


> - Listening to SS components for the first time
> - semi-counscious expectations for a WOW factor
> - No WOW factor
> - initial delusion
> ...


 

 Sounds a heck of a lot like brain burn-in, to me!


----------



## ecohifi

Quote: 





temple said:


> I am really curious to see how this DAC compares to the new EE MiniMax Plus. Hope to hear some feedback on that soon...


 

 +1 
   
  Hoping for this as well!!!  Why? because I have one!!!   Guess what,  I didn't think the EE Minimax Plus is all that worthwhile, not at $1100AU


----------



## lordfiend

I am using my Nationite S:Flo2 as the source to feed into Biifrost and I was wondering from the line out of the player what cable can I use to connect it to Biifrost. Basically I am looking for 3.5 mm to Coaxial SPDIF/Optical SPDIF that Biifrost can take. Please suggest a cable. Thanx


----------



## Shubar

Quote: 





lordfiend said:


> I am using my Nationite S:Flo2 as the source to feed into Biifrost and I was wondering from the line out of the player what cable can I use to connect it to Biifrost. Basically I am looking for 3.5 mm to Coaxial SPDIF/Optical SPDIF that Biifrost can take. Please suggest a cable. Thanx


 

  
  You're not going to be able to use the S:Flo2 with the Bifrost. Does not have digital out.


----------



## eclein

*Thank you guys for helping us get  an idea what to expect with Bifrost....sounds like a nice solid start, wait until these units get a good week of use and then I bet they are game changers. I'm no authority just an old guy who loves music and toys, I mean gear!!!! *
   
*  Also folks shouldn't struggle with the whole burn in issue- if you don't hear it thats fine, your gear is ready alot sooner than mine to fully listen to critically. I didn't think there was such a thing until I got my first DAC and the first 2 days it sounded great, on like the 3rd into the fourth it got way better.*
   
*  My Virtue TWO.2 was going to be sent back the next day after 4 days of listening, then on a Sunday afternoon while listening to music I have heard before multiple times everything sounded amazing, I was hearing it take place I believe and things like that got me thinking in the other direction....so if you don't hear it, you don't. If you do, then you do!! Pretty easy I think?*


----------



## Edoardo

Quote: 





sampson_smith said:


> Quote:
> Sounds a heck of a lot like brain burn-in, to me!


 


  Placebo needs burn-in, maybe


----------



## Butler

caracara08 said:


> i view this and schiit products as all competing around its price range. theyre not spectacular but if someone sees it as spectacular and competing out of its price range, then power to them. the simple fact is that they really dont.




Many veteran audio publications and respected forum members disagree. I think it's safe to say that you're in the minority.
But hey, more power to you! That's what the free world is for. :atsmile:


----------



## Maxvla

One of the biggest things that earns Schiit extra respect is going the extra mile to source their parts and labor in the US, while still competing with the Chinese products on price. This country needs more companies like Schiit.


----------



## Argo Duck

Clever!
  
  Quote: 





edoardo said:


> - Listening to SS components for the first time
> - semi-counscious expectations for a WOW factor
> - No WOW factor
> - initial delusion
> ...


----------



## estreeter

Quote: 





shubar said:


> You're not going to be able to use the S:Flo2 with the Bifrost. Does not have digital out.


 

 I suspect that if he has gotten this far (!), that wont mean much right now. 
   
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital-to-analog_converter
   
  Bizarrely, JHA have just the device he needs, albeit at considerably more than he may be willing to pay:
   
http://www.jhaudio.com/product/jh16-pro-custom-ear-monitor-jh-3a-dsp-amp
   
  Whether the incoming signal is digital or analog doesnt seem to matter with this gizmo - DSP will save us all !


----------



## Edoardo

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *AiDee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

  
  You're flattering me, Sir


----------



## 45longcolt

Schiit must use the same LEDs found in tactical flashlights. With the room lights off and the Lyr on, it's easy to walk around safely. Add the Bifrost, and I can practically read..
   
  Anyhow, spent most of day listening to Bifrost with speakers (Triangle Celius, powered by Musical Fidelity A300 and supplemented by Hsu 1220 subwoofer.) All for you, fellow Head-Fiers.
   
  Overall impression, this is not a shy DAC. It puts the transients right out there, especially in contrast to the DLIII. The PS Audio has been praised as analog-sounding, which some people might interpret as rounding off the edges. The Celius-es (Celii?) have no lack of treble and are about as discreet as Perez Hilton, so the combo sometimes teeters on the brink of too much. In fact, I'm sure it would be for some people. Not for me though, or you if you enjoy occasionally being startled by cymbal strikes or other such notes.
   
  Beethoven's Ninth (BIS hydrid SACD) was more enjoyable than I recalled. IMHO, this isn't the greatest recording, but the Bifrost made the individual instruments clearer and thus easier to follow. The chorus had impressive presence.
   
  One of my reference tracks is Laughing by David Crosby from his album If I Could Only Remember My Name (2006 remaster.) Right off the bat, the Bifrost presented each guitar as an individual. Each had great weight, and there was very much the sense of each string being fingered. There's a lot going on in this song, and it came across clearly. Highly enjoyable. It's not the the Bifrost revealed new details, but it did make small things that much easier to pick out.
   
  So far, so good. Some posters have opined that the Bifrost doesn't really punch above its weight class. I wish I could hear enough DACs (and more expensive) to have a truly informed opinion. I do wonder if the pace of advancement in digital doesn't render this a moot point. Even if I could afford to spend $5K or $20K on a DAC, I'd still have this nagging fear that it would be outdated in a year or less. As for the Bifrost, I'm not sending it back.


----------



## grmnasasin0227

Quote: 





butler said:


> Many veteran audio publications and respected forum members disagree. I think it's safe to say that you're in the minority.
> But hey, more power to you! That's what the free world is for.


 
  Frankly, he's just being realistic. Nobody's expecting a $350 DAC to go against much more expensive ones in an already saturated market at every price point. Why else do you think Schiit is making multiple tiers? Because the Bifrost simply doesn't compete at higher price points...are you really expecting everybody with PWDs to drop them and swoop up a Bifrost and enter audio nirvana? No, you don't.


----------



## Misterrogers

Quote: 





grmnasasin0227 said:


> Frankly, he's just being realistic. Nobody's expecting a $350 DAC to go against much more expensive ones in an already saturated market at every price point. Why else do you think Schiit is making multiple tiers? Because the Bifrost simply doesn't compete at higher price points...are you really expecting everybody with PWDs to drop them and swoop up a Bifrost and enter audio nirvana? No, you don't.


 


  Likely not, but I do believe that products in this space tend to be overpriced. It sure would be nice to be surprised by a product such as Bifrost that goes head to head with the likes of the PWDs


----------



## Kremer930

I think that the comment referred to Schiit punching above its weight an price point, not being world champion.


----------



## ecohifi

Quote: 





grmnasasin0227 said:


> Frankly, he's just being realistic. Nobody's expecting a $350 DAC to go against much more expensive ones in an already saturated market at every price point. Why else do you think Schiit is making multiple tiers? Because the Bifrost simply doesn't compete at higher price points...are you really expecting everybody with PWDs to drop them and swoop up a Bifrost and enter audio nirvana? No, you don't.


 


  Some things are well over price,  have a look at the Resonessance Invicta,  all this nice electronics and they stuffed it with a AD797.  There are better op amps than AD 797!  And for $4K US!!!
  Even it it doesn't better above its price bracket, who cares, its an entry level dac that is cleverly marketed!!!  The AKM is not new, it is used in a Taiwanese dac manufacture that no one wants.


----------



## Maxvla

The Invicta is like the ultimate bedside rig though. It sounds great with HD800 too which tends to be hard to drive well. Plays off SD cards has very small footprint and good power levels. Maybe not worth $4k, but not terrible.


----------



## lordfiend

Thanx a lot estreeter. I was just kindda confused if the analog signal provided by the S:Flo 2 can be converted to digital and then again fed into the biifrost but meh 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 by the time poor signal reaches biifrost there will be quite a loss in the quality I guess so will stay away from it. Thanx anyway


----------



## wushuliu

77 pages and only a couple useful comments/feedback. It's going to be a looooong couple of weeks...


----------



## estreeter

Quote: 





wushuliu said:


> 77 pages and only a couple useful comments/feedback. It's going to be a looooong couple of weeks...


 


  Friend, I have made this same point in several threads - I firmly believe that 'impressions' should be separated from 'anticipation' (or more correctly, speculation ...). but each time I have been shouted down by the usual suspects. In this case, they bought the Asgard, then the Valhalla and finally the Lyr and they will end up with each of the Schiit DACs. I only have one problem with that, and its that each new toy is loudly proclaimed as being so much better than the last. Welcome to Head-Fi - sorry for your sanity.


----------



## Kremer930

Quote: 





estreeter said:


> Friend, I have made this same point in several threads - I firmly believe that 'impressions' should be separated from 'anticipation' (or more correctly, speculation ...). but each time I have been shouted down by the usual suspects. In this case, they bought the Asgard, then the Valhalla and finally the Lyr and they will end up with each of the Schiit DACs. I only have one problem with that, and its that each new toy is loudly proclaimed as being so much better than the last. Welcome to Head-Fi - sorry for your sanity.


 


   
   
  Well at least in this case with the Schiit Dacs it will be true.


----------



## Hero Kid

And.... everything in the first post is up to date. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  Keep the impressions rolling in!


----------



## Edoardo

Quote: 





wushuliu said:


> 77 pages and only a couple useful comments/feedback. It's going to be a looooong couple of weeks...


 


  You all may excuse me,
   
  But this thread should be the *anticipation* thread.
   
  For instance, I've subscribed just because I'm in eager to know something more about the balanced incoming DACs...
   
Why doesn't anyone open a* "Schiit Bifrost DAC: the shipment thread" *or a* "Schiit Bifrost DAC: unboxing and first impressions"* thread*????*
   
  Because that's what this thread has been gone into since a month, and honestly, I couldn't care less...


----------



## ecohifi

Quote: 





maxvla said:


> The Invicta is like the ultimate bedside rig though. It sounds great with HD800 too which tends to be hard to drive well. Plays off SD cards has very small footprint and good power levels. Maybe not worth $4k, but not terrible.


 
  ,

 An ultimate bed side device that uses AD797 for $4K US.  and they rave about the justification on the AD 797  & initially claimed as a JFET, noticed they have backed of on that claimed after SOME head-Fi gave them a reality check on Project 86 review.  AT 4k they could have supplied a better opamp with the ultimate electronics it has on the front end.
   
  I be interested for a posting here if someone did a shootout between an invicta and a Bifrost. both are 32 bit dac, and at least one has jfet in the anolog stage!!!!


----------



## Kremer930

Just noticed that the Bifrost page on Schiit's website has now updated to now shipping.  I am guessing that the testing and burning in of the USB modules went well?
   
  Great work Jason.  You will finally be able to sit back with a beer and take a breather.....


----------



## estreeter

Quote: 





kremer930 said:


> Great work Jason.  You will finally be able to sit back with a beer and take a breather.....


 

 Yup - all that beer and schmoozing the fans at RMAF can really take it out of a guy !


----------



## atcapollo

has anyone used a USB version yet against Linux (Ubuntu)?
   
  is there any indicator on the unit as to the sample rate of the source? I want to be able to check my soundcard isn't doing any upsampling before transporting over optical.


----------



## pseudohippy

Quote: 





atcapollo said:


> has anyone used a USB version yet against Linux (Ubuntu)?
> 
> is there any indicator on the unit as to the sample rate of the source? I want to be able to check my soundcard isn't doing any upsampling before transporting over optical.


 


  No


----------



## Wedge

I don't think anyone has gotten their, USB versions yet.


----------



## sampson_smith

I finally caved! The Schiit Bifrost is incoming.


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





sampson_smith said:


> I finally caved! The Schiit Bifrost is incoming.


 

 Congrats Vincent....please keep us posted on your thoughts when it arrives.


----------



## olor1n

Bifrost impressions from purrin and Anaxilus from the recent Irvine meet -
   
   
  Quote:


anaxilus said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Ham Sandwich

Quote: 





olor1n said:


> Bifrost impressions from purrin and Anaxilus from the recent Irvine meet -


 


  Now I'm disappointed.  Seems Jason and Mike haven't figured out how to make a $3K DAC for $350/$450.


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





ham sandwich said:


> Now I'm disappointed.  Seems Jason and Mike haven't figured out how to make a $3K DAC for $350/$450.


 

 Not really surprising considering how I think the Lyr competes with amps 2X it's cost.


----------



## estreeter

Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> Not really surprising considering how I think the Lyr competes with amps 2X it's cost.


 

 Right, but how does it compare with amps 5x its cost ? Thats the kind of crazy expectations that I believe *some* Head-Fiers bring to the table with a new product like the BiFrost. I look back on the massive pre-release hype that grew up around the Icon HDP, then fast-forward to 2011 and its like the uncle everyone silently hopes wont be turning up for Xmas dinner ....


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





estreeter said:


> Right, but how does it compare with amps 5x its cost ? Thats the kind of crazy expectations that I believe *some* Head-Fiers bring to the table with a new product like the BiFrost*. I look back on the massive pre-release hype that grew up around the Icon HDP, then fast-forward to 2011 and its like the uncle everyone silently hopes wont be turning up for Xmas dinner ....*


 
  LoL...thanks for the good laugh. Very well put.


----------



## Ham Sandwich

Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> Not really surprising considering how I think the Lyr competes with amps 2X it's cost.


 


  Mmmmm... Lyr     
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
   
  I have the Schiit web page open right now looking at the Lyr with the mouse hovering over the buy button while I try to figure out which tubes.  My LCD-2 needs something more than the Asgard.  So another amp first.  Then DAC.  Tubes.  Which tubes.  This indecision is delaying my buying.  
   
  edit:  And my previous comment was tongue in cheek even though I only put a sad smiley.  Just having some fun.


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





ham sandwich said:


> Mmmmm... Lyr
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


  What headphones are you looking at driving?


----------



## Ham Sandwich

Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> What headphones are you looking at driving?


 


  Just the LCD-2 rev 2 for the Lyr.  I'll be keeping the Asgard which keeps my HD600 and Grados happy.


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





ham sandwich said:


> Just the LCD-2 rev 2 for the Lyr.  I'll be keeping the Asgard which keeps my HD600 and Grados happy.


 

 The Lyr is fantastic with the LCD-2s....I'd go for the 6BZ7 NOS Tubes.


----------



## sampson_smith

Where can you grab a pair of those, Peter, and for approx. how much? I have a sneaky little hunch that I have a Lyr on the horizon, as well. 
   
  EDIT: Looks like eBay is rife with them, and for rather little scratch, too!


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





sampson_smith said:


> Where can you grab a pair of those, Peter, and for approx. how much? I have a sneaky little hunch that I have a Lyr on the horizon, as well.
> 
> EDIT: Looks like eBay is rife with them, and for rather little scratch, too!


 


  Schiit Audio sells them separately:
   
  http://schiit.com/cart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=0&products_id=8
   
  Or you can order them with your Lyr.


----------



## sampson_smith

Right! D'oh! No fuss at all, since they come with the darn thing (if selected for). So you do not have an urge to try out a pair of much more expensive Gold Lions (?) or a couple of those other popular varieties that can cost $100 or more? That is a good sign. I understand that you use the Lyr primarily for the HE-6, but do you also feel that it plays well with your LCD-2 r.2's (and r.1's, before them, if you can 'accurately' recall 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)?


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





sampson_smith said:


> Right! D'oh! No fuss at all, since they come with the darn thing (if selected for). So you do not have an urge to try out a pair of much more expensive Gold Lions (?) or a couple of those other popular varieties that can cost $100 or more? That is a good sign. I understand that you use the Lyr primarily for the HE-6, but do you also feel that it plays well with your LCD-2 r.2's (and r.1's, before them, if you can 'accurately' recall
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


  I've got the Gold Lions right here. Very good tubes IMO, but I very slightly prefer the extra 20% more gain with the 6BZ7s with my HE-6s. With my LCD-2s, I do prefer the Gold Lions. Of all the tubes available from Schiit for the Lyr, the 6BZ7s are my favourites.


----------



## Hero Kid

Nice to see this thread is still on-topic


----------



## estreeter

Relax - its not as if all of our posts are obscuring any actual *impressions* of the Bifrost .....   
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  (imagine this thread at 150 pages ....)


----------



## Hero Kid

Ha my comment was only a playful poke. But yes, more impressions are always welcome!


----------



## sampson_smith

Ahem... I think I can say that the Bifrost may very well be my gateway DAC to other Schiit, such as the Lyr. Reason for derailing things a bit. My, they certainly will look nice together, stacked on my desktop. 
   
  I am not expecting perfection from the Bifrost, but will be very, very happy if the overall consensus is that it is a better DAC than the Dacmagic, V-DAC and HDP-- things that have been said here a few times. I have had experience with all three DAC's and have felt they lacked something less than tangible. I hope the Bifrost brings that missing X factor to the listening experience, whatever my fatigued mind is trying to get at here. (_Turns the Deerhunter iTunes Sessions up and tunes out! _Man, is "He Would Have Laughed" a great track. Night, Head-fellas!)


----------



## olor1n

Quote: 





ham sandwich said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
   
  My Sarcasm Metre is unable to get a reading from this post. Regardless, it's probably indicative of some of the expectation placed on Schiit. Anything less than a glowing review filled with hyperbole is a failure. It's sad that a restrained, but ultimately positive impression is discarded in favour of the usual tripe. These are the views that truly highlight a product's success. It's a shame they're often drowned out by noise.


----------



## Ham Sandwich

Quote: 





olor1n said:


> My Sarcasm Metre is unable to get a reading from this post. Regardless, it's probably indicative of some of the expectation placed on Schiit. Anything less than a glowing review filled with hyperbole is a failure. It's sad that a restrained, but ultimately positive impression is discarded in favour of the usual tripe. These are the views that truly highlight a product's success. It's a shame they're often drowned out by noise.


 


  Your sarcasm meter should have pegged.  At least that was my intent.
   
  Who would really expect them to make a $350 DAC that betters a $3000 DAC?  That isn't realistic in even the slightest.  It would be nice to have the Bifrost compare with DACs that cost slightly more ($100 more, $200 more).  No need to go for the unrealistic and have it match or better DACs that cost 10 times as much.  Wait for the statement DAC before expecting to match the big DACs.


----------



## grokit

I wonder how much of an upgrade the mid-level balanced model will be over the Bifrost or will its SQ approach the statement model?


----------



## kongmw

Quote: 





ham sandwich said:


> Your sarcasm meter should have pegged.  At least that was my intent.
> 
> Who would really expect them to make a $350 DAC that betters a $3000 DAC?  That isn't realistic in even the slightest.  It would be nice to have the Bifrost compare with DACs that cost slightly more ($100 more, $200 more).  No need to go for the unrealistic and have it match or better DACs that cost 10 times as much.  Wait for the statement DAC before expecting to match the big DACs.


 


  exactly. nobody expects a hyundai sonata to outrun a bmw M5. as long as it can keep up with an accord, everybody will be happy.


----------



## Maxvla

grokit said:


> I wonder how much of an upgrade the mid-level balanced model will be over the Bifrost or will its SQ approach the statement model?




My guess is that the balanced DAC will not be a noticeable SQ difference except the inherent bonuses of being balanced. The statement will be the noticeable step up in quality.


----------



## Argo Duck

Well said.
  
  Quote: 





olor1n said:


> My Sarcasm Metre is unable to get a reading from this post. Regardless, it's probably indicative of some of the expectation placed on Schiit. *Anything less than a glowing review filled with hyperbole is a failure. It's sad that a restrained, but ultimately positive impression is discarded* in favour of the usual tripe. *These are the views that truly highlight a product's success. It's a shame they're often drowned out by noise.*


----------



## ecohifi

Quote: 





ham sandwich said:


> Now I'm disappointed.  Seems Jason and Mike haven't figured out how to make a $3K DAC for $350/$450.


 


 OH Schiit!!!!, Say what! its the last quarter of 2011 and no one has a $350/450 product that beats a $3k dac, I'm disappointed!!!


----------



## Hero Kid

Quote: 





ham sandwich said:


> Your sarcasm meter should have pegged.  [...]


 

  If it means anything mine certainly pegged. I had a good chuckle to myself.


----------



## Edoardo

Today I've nothing to do. I mean, if you want I can build myself a DAC ripping my RealTek soundcard off from my PC and putting it in a wooden jewel-box with my electric shaver's PSU, then call it "esoteric overcompensating audiophile DAC" and put it on ebay for 3000€. So you'll have a 3000€ DAC sounding worse than your Bifrost. If it can help taking the thread back into topic...
   
  ...
   
  It is pointless to spend 3.000 $ on a stereo DAC in 2011. You can get some great studio-grade stereo DACs for the half and less. 
  Yes maybe some audiophile-targeted brands can still sell an unbalanced minimalist DAC for the double, but taking those products in consideration just for the sake of saying "sounds better than a 3000€ DAC" is nonsense, since no-one in their senses who can surf the internet a little is going to buy any of them anymore...
   
  I don't think that the Bifrost was meant to "compete" with those anyway... for a "feature" thing, more than SQ... I'm sure it can be a definitive piece of gear anyway.


----------



## Kremer930

I wonder if Jason may divulge some more details about the intermediate Dac and/or amp since the Bifrost is now almost in to smooth waters.  
   
  Has anyone else received shipping confirmation for their USB Bifrosts?


----------



## ecohifi

Quote: 





edoardo said:


> Today I've nothing to do. I mean, if you want I can build myself a DAC ripping my RealTek soundcard off from my PC and putting it in a wooden jewel-box with my electric shaver's PSU, then call it "esoteric overcompensating audiophile DAC" and put it on ebay for 3000€. So you'll have a 3000€ DAC sounding worse than your Bifrost. If it can help taking the thread back into topic...
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


 


 +1
  agreed!
   
  Why would you spend $3k on a dac as more are flooding the market?  unless you had $3k as lose change!!!


----------



## Yikes

Quote: 





kongmw said:


> exactly. nobody expects a hyundai sonata to outrun a bmw M5. as long as it can keep up with an accord, everybody will be happy.


 


 Not the Accord owner. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Why is it that most people believe that the point of technological or performance diminishing returns happens to be  magically within their spending limit?
   
  I've got news for you: Just like Home users the level (performance & price) of DACs that Studios use runs the gambit. The Benchmark and cheaper Lavry units are fairly inexpensive  Pro D/As (In reality the Benchmark DAC1 and Lavry DA10/11 were primarily intended for Remote Monitoring) (There are Semipro product that are typically used by home studios, so the line between Pro and Consumer has blurred). That being said better Studios still use  the better Pro D/A's from companies like  DCS and  EMM  Labs (the Pro DCS and EMM equipment lacks the super heavy chassis of their consumer gear but otherwise is just as well built). So just because some studio's get by with the Benchmark don't delude yourselves into believing that all of the really expensive stuff out there is a waste of money, sure everyone has their own point of diminishing returns, but everyone is different. So lighten up and be happy that you're satisfied with a modest D/A instead of continuously insinuating that anyone who spends more is a idiot.


----------



## Edoardo

Quote: 





yikes said:


> Why is it that most people believe that the point of technological or performance diminishing returns happens to be  magically within their spending limit?


 
   
  That's because of non-indipendent reviewers offering giant-killers at any price... Giant-killers on sale for anyone's pockets! Yeaaah!!! Any "much" you spend, you get something that beats stuff costing ten times more.
   
  The other way round: why you don't find anyone admitting that the returns started to diminish at the half of what they spent?
   
  To be honest, I've met people with huge spending limits to be so happy with their new MF V-DAC in their no-compromise rig... Or people happy to amplify their 3,000+$ speakers with a T-amp... I've owned a T-amp and strongly repented of having not got something else within my spending limit and in the same price range!
   
   
  When it comes to DACs, jitter reduction stages and sought-after analog output stages are needed for a really loyal playback. Then a good PSU can be welcome.
  This stuff *costs.* _C'est la vie_.
   
  By the way, nowadays "entry level" priced DAC give objectively very good results, since the technology implied in most DACs is extremely similar, at any price range, and they are all transparent enough to make us appreciate our music even at Hi-Res even if they're not the best solution available.
   
  IMHO, if you don't need top-notch fully balanced impedance-matched rig, and/or you are not willing to spend time or money in configuring OS and SW to make your expenses worthy, an entry level unbalanced DAC could really be a definitive choice, in 2011.
   
  It's also a matter of coupling with the rest of the rig. I've got an Arcam rDAC priced at 350€, I'd never dare to say it sounds much better than a 150€ Asus soundcard,_ ceteris paribus, _without a proper test.
  I chose the Arcam because I own a laptop and that little thing features the dCS USB 2.0 asynch input. But I am aware that when it comes to audio, the USB technology has flaws, and I'd never say that a PCI soundcard + DAC solution would sound worse, the same, or better, just because the reviewer said the dCS technology is "woah!". etcetera.
   
*I was just saying that IMHO*, most of the times it is common sense not to spend more than the professionals do, especially if there is no technological issue, it's just about a deltasigma chip put in a bad-looking aluminum case rather than in a jewel-box. At least I'm sure that the first solution will be soldered properly and that was designed to last.


----------



## sling5s

I know there are few out there who own the Audio GD NFB-3.  Any comparisons yet?  Would be helpful since both are in the same price range.


----------



## Jason Stoddard

Hey all,
   
  Another slight delay on shipping USB--we want to make a minor firmware update on the delivered boards. We'll be shipping in a couple of days. And yes, I know, I'm starting to sound like a broken record . . .
   
  All the best,
  Jason


----------



## Anathallo

Ooooooo, getting so very antsy in my pantsy for my bifrost.
   
   


  Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> Hey all,
> 
> Another slight delay on shipping USB--we want to make a minor firmware update on the delivered boards. We'll be shipping in a couple of days. And yes, I know, I'm starting to sound like a broken record . . .
> 
> ...


----------



## judmarc

Quote:


jason stoddard said:


> Hey all,
> 
> Another slight delay on shipping USB--we want to make a minor firmware update on the delivered boards. We'll be shipping in a couple of days. And yes, I know, I'm starting to sound like a broken record . . .
> 
> ...


 

  
  This brings up a question: Is the Bifrost able to receive firmware/software updates via Web/USB?  If not so currently, that would be a nice idea.


----------



## sling5s

I am hoping that it performs well above it's price range but what made me pull the trigger was not just that it would stack nicely with the Asgard and Lyr but also that it's upgradeable. How nice.


----------



## ecohifi

Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> Hey all,
> 
> Another slight delay on shipping USB--we want to make a minor firmware update on the delivered boards. We'll be shipping in a couple of days. And yes, I know, I'm starting to sound like a broken record . . .
> 
> ...


 

 Jason,
   
  what does the latest firmware correct and can current owners do this update themselves????


----------



## Wedge

Current owners shouldn't have the USB boards to need the Firmware update.


----------



## 45longcolt

At the risk of going OT, may I post a few more impressions after almost 50 hours with my (non-USB) Bifrost? Going from phones to speakers makes me appreciate anew the importance of system matching. With the Lyr/LCD-2s, no complaints. I find the individual notes and instruments easier to disentangle than with my old faithful DLIII. And the Schiit definitely pushes some sounds, like cymbals, farther out of the mix. Sounds that were in the background emerge more distinctly. On speakers, this sometimes verges on annoying. But then my Triangles are fairly assertive all on their own. Mostly, the result is hugely enjoyable - Joni Mitchell for example (No, I'm not a teenager.) Occasionally I feel there might be a little less bass, but it could just be that the bass is more taught. I characterize the Bifrost as lean and mean. And a heck of a bargain Some posters are asking for comparisons to other DACs. If anyone in the San Diego area would like to lend me their DAC, I'll see what I can do. And count me among those who can't wait to see the statement unit...


----------



## judmarc

_Is the Bifrost able to receive firmware/software updates via Web/USB?_
   
  Duh.  Sorry, sometimes it takes me a while.  The Schiit website mentions downloadable Windows (USB hi-rez) drivers will be provided, so yeah, of course the Bifrost is capable of being updated via downloads.


----------



## sling5s

From the impressions so far, the Bifrost sound signature sounds a lot like the Lyr.


----------



## kongmw

Quote: 





judmarc said:


> _Is the Bifrost able to receive firmware/software updates via Web/USB?_
> 
> Duh.  Sorry, sometimes it takes me a while.  The Schiit website mentions downloadable Windows (USB hi-rez) drivers will be provided, so yeah, of course the Bifrost is capable of being updated via downloads.


 


  uhh IMHO drivers for using the chip with a particular OS are different from firmwares that are actually _burned into_ the USB chips themselves. And assuming that Jason meant what he said when he said firmware, chances are that they're not easily upgradable by end users. Take external harddrives for example. They're plug-and-play, which means the generic drivers are already in the OS. But the firmware for chips within the USB-SATA/IDE handling part is completely separated and not accessible by average user like you and me. 
   
  somebody correct me if I'm wrong. obviously, as a head-fier also waiting for USB version of Bifrost, I'd love it to be the case that USB chips' firmware is user upgradable.


----------



## ecohifi

Quote: 





kongmw said:


> uhh IMHO drivers for using the chip with a particular OS are different from firmwares that are actually _burned into_ the USB chips themselves. And assuming that Jason meant what he said when he said firmware, chances are that they're not easily upgradable by end users. Take external harddrives for example. They're plug-and-play, which means the generic drivers are already in the OS. But the firmware for chips within the USB-SATA/IDE handling part is completely separated and not accessible by average user like you and me.
> 
> somebody correct me if I'm wrong. obviously, as a head-fier also waiting for USB version of Bifrost, I'd love it to be the case that USB chips' firmware is user upgradable.


 

 Very true,
   
  Jason was vague about firmware but we all assume its for USB,  I work on equipment that the end user cannot upload firmware onto the product. this must be done by someone who is trained!!!
  Firmaware upgrades on curtain products are preferred not to be done unless absolute necessary! Otherwise if it is not done correctly it is a very expensive exercise!!!!


----------



## ecohifi

Quote: 





judmarc said:


> _Is the Bifrost able to receive firmware/software updates via Web/USB?_
> 
> Duh.  Sorry, sometimes it takes me a while.  The Schiit website mentions downloadable Windows (USB hi-rez) drivers will be provided, so yeah, of course the Bifrost is capable of being updated via downloads.


 


 Yeah, for drivers,  firmware is different, firmware is not drivers!!!


----------



## Maxvla

Firmware is essentially an operating system. More complicated than drivers.


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





sling5s said:


> From the impressions so far, the Bifrost sound signature sounds a lot like the Lyr.


 
   
  Hmm, I guess depends on tubes and sources but my listen to the Lyr seemed to render a slightly drier signature than the BiFrost for me.  I do believe the Lyr is slightly less detailed and transparent but probably a very nice synergy in dealing w/ any potential grain you'd pick off the BiFrost using a mega transparent amp.  Take that with some salt under meet conditions.


----------



## wuwhere

Drivers are downloadable if the the software/firmware and hardware exists to do so.


----------



## wuwhere

Quote: 





maxvla said:


> Firmware is essentially an operating system. More complicated than drivers.


 


  Nope. Firmware is now an archaic word in the software world. Most software/firmware is downloadable except those that reside in ROM like the bootstrap, bootloader and other code in the hardware.


----------



## ecohifi

Drivers are software that interfaces a PC or mac to support a device that it is written for!
   
  Firmware is the machine codes that operate whole pcb or programmable chips!
   
  Yes, you may need external device and/or programs to load firmware.
   
  Yes, firmware must be loaded in accordance to the steps outlined.  Otherwise like I said: expensive excercise.
   
  Reason for firmware upgrades is to correct faults that were not detected during testing before production or faults that are reported by the end user that cannot be fixed through existing settings or replacement of hardware.  Drivers are also subjected to these senarios in which the versions are updated.
   
  Not every driver/firmware update will fix issues 100% of the time, infact sometimes the updates can introduce different faults so be warned!!!  Like I said in some items you do not update unless it is vital to do so!!!


----------



## wuwhere

PC? Mac? I test software/firmware on real time systems with real time operating system. Have you written software in C language? Have you debugged code using a logic analyzer? Do you know what a bootstrap is? A bootloader? Do you you know how a compiler work? Have you burned eeprom? Have you ever written assembly code? Have you ever designed  software from a set of requirements? Been there than that.


----------



## ecohifi

.


  
  Quote: 





wuwhere said:


> PC? Mac? I test software/firmware on real time systems with real time operating system. Have you written software in C language? Have you debugged code using a logic analyzer? Do you know what a bootstrap is? A bootloader? Do you you know how a compiler work? Have you burned eeprom? Have you ever written assembly code? Have you ever designed  software from a set of requirements? Been there than that.


 


  Yes I have programmed chips in my college days 25yrs ago
  Yes I have burnt ROMs and EPROMs,  this is what I do for a living
  Cannot remember what a bootstrap is, or remember what a compiler is,  thats 25yrs ago
  Haven't written software in C
  Have written assembly code: again 25yrs ago
  No, have not designed software for a set of requirements
   
  Yes, I load driver into PCs and macs for a living this is to support the devices I maintain
  Yes I upgrade firmware into $0.5M+ devices for a living,
  Is there any other questions? Because basically I was just advising the difference between drivers and firmware!!!  Not being offensive or offending anyone and I do hope you accept my apologies if I have!!
  I do not have brand name electronics apart from a mini max plus, because I cant solder devices this small,  all SS in my possession: I have built,  including speakers, This doesn't include Bluray player and a Stax Lamba!
   
   
   
  Where Im from there are no more electronics engineering,  all this that you do are shifted overseas, by the way I do maintainance!!


----------



## ecohifi

Quote: 





45longcolt said:


> At the risk of going OT, may I post a few more impressions after almost 50 hours with my (non-USB) Bifrost? Going from phones to speakers makes me appreciate anew the importance of system matching. With the Lyr/LCD-2s, no complaints. I find the individual notes and instruments easier to disentangle than with my old faithful DLIII. And the Schiit definitely pushes some sounds, like cymbals, farther out of the mix. Sounds that were in the background emerge more distinctly. On speakers, this sometimes verges on annoying. But then my Triangles are fairly assertive all on their own. Mostly, the result is hugely enjoyable - Joni Mitchell for example (No, I'm not a teenager.) Occasionally I feel there might be a little less bass, but it could just be that the bass is more taught. I characterize the Bifrost as lean and mean. And a heck of a bargain Some posters are asking for comparisons to other DACs. If anyone in the San Diego area would like to lend me their DAC, I'll see what I can do. And count me among those who can't wait to see the statement unit...


 
  45longcolt,
   
  thanks for the follow up, keep rolling in these write up!!


----------



## ecohifi

45longcolt,
   
  if I was in San Diago I would loan you my EE mini max plus and my $69US Gigaworks dac.  But I'm 1/2 world away downunder to be exact!!!


----------



## Jason Stoddard

Hey all,
   
  To clarify: Bifrost has two sets of firmware--one for the main board and one for the USB board. The USB boards that we received came with an earlier version of the firmware. We want to get you the latest, so we have to update them and run through a complete suite of instrument and listening tests--which we are in process with as we speak.
   
  All the best,
  Jason


----------



## Killbox

Finally got my Bifrost today. Have just plugged it in and played a couple of songs. One thing that's pretty strange. Sometimes when click into different folders on my computer, the bifrost makes a loud click sound. 
   
  Edit. Not only when browsing folders...  Really annoying!


----------



## Butler

ham sandwich said:


> Mmmmm... Lyr
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I've read a handfull of reviews that the LCD-2 isn't a _bad_ pair with the Asgard. 6Moons said it was "Good", and I know there's a few people around who use the combination of the two without complaints. It's just not, you know, the best case scenario. Not everyone can afford the best case scenario though.

If you have the money buy the Lyr and have both that and the Asgard.
If you have rent to pay, I'd say give try giving the Asgard and the LCD-2 a second date, if you will. 

And of course either of these will pair up well with the bifrost.


----------



## Ham Sandwich

Quote: 





killbox said:


> Finally got my Bifrost today. Have just plugged it in and played a couple of songs. One thing that's pretty strange. Sometimes when click into different folders on my computer, the bifrost makes a loud click sound.
> 
> Edit. Not only when browsing folders...  Really annoying!


 


  Bummer.  Welcome to the joys of computer audio.
  Post in the "Computer Audio" section with info on your computer setup, hardware, and software.  Should be able to get that issue solved.  I doubt it is a Bifrost problem.


----------



## Ham Sandwich

Quote: 





butler said:


> I've read a handfull of reviews that the LCD-2 isn't a _bad_ pair with the Asgard. 6Moons said it was "Good", and I know there's a few people around who use the combination of the two without complaints. It's just not, you know, the best case scenario. Not everyone can afford the best case scenario though.
> If you have the money buy the Lyr and have both that and the Asgard.
> If you have rent to pay, I'd say give try giving the Asgard and the LCD-2 a second date, if you will.
> And of course either of these will pair up well with the bifrost.


 

  
  The Asgard isn't doing that bad.  It's just that the LCD2 isn't opening up as much as I've heard it do with some other setups.  It's an amp and source issue.  Which is a problem that a pile of additional Schiit gear might solve.  Possibly a Lyr as amp and Bifrost as source would do the magic for me?  That's why I'm watching this thread.  To see impressions of how the Bifrost gets along with the LCD2 and a Lyr.


----------



## sling5s

The Asgard doesn't have enough power for the LCD-2 shine and treble for that matter.  The Lry with it's ample power and a slight treble emphasis will match the LCD-2 better. 
  From what I hear, the Bifrost will I think match the LCD-2 too.  It seems to have a wide soundstage and a slight treble edge. 
  
  Quote: 





ham sandwich said:


> The Asgard isn't doing that bad.  It's just that the LCD2 isn't opening up as much as I've heard it do with some other setups.  It's an amp and source issue.  Which is a problem that a pile of additional Schiit gear might solve.  Possibly a Lyr as amp and Bifrost as source would do the magic for me?  That's why I'm watching this thread.  To see impressions of how the Bifrost gets along with the LCD2 and a Lyr.


----------



## pseudohippy

I gotta say I like the Lyr and LCD-2 so far. Im no reviewer but I can say generally speaking that with the Lyr the LCD hits harder, more punchy and tight sounding, kinda brighter though compared to the LCD-2 with my WA2. The WA2 has a warmer tubyer softer sound including the bass and voices. The Lyr is edgier, voices are sharper, and occasionally almost get shrill, but they never seem to hit that point the way Ive heard in the past with cheaper portable gear. In sum, I prefer using the LCD-2 with my Lyr over the WA2 due to the LCD already being warmish without enough sparkle. The Lyr gives it that sparkle without losing control at the top. Im using Mullard tubes in the Lyr though which also factors in. I use my WA2 with my Grados and the Beyer DT880 although they sound fine with the Lyr, I like with the WA2 more. They are smoother sounding with the WA2. Of course tubes play a big role in all this so if you get the Lyr you can tailor it the way you want with tubes, you really can.
   
  When I get the Bifrost I can compare it with the MSII+ that I have here. But again, Im no reviewer so perhaps I should just keep a lid on it and continue listening and tapping my toes, which is what I do best hehe.


----------



## ecohifi

Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> Hey all,
> 
> To clarify: Bifrost has two sets of firmware--one for the main board and one for the USB board. The USB boards that we received came with an earlier version of the firmware. We want to get you the latest, so we have to update them and run through a complete suite of instrument and listening tests--which we are in process with as we speak.
> 
> ...


 

 Jason,
   
  is there a plan to get firmware for the main pcb to pesent Bitfrost owners?  And what does the firmware correct/improve? 
   
  On this thread several owners of the Bifost dac have complained of clicking sounds when changing tracks or folders, are these issues being investigated?


----------



## Killbox

But how could it be a computer issue when the sound/clicking is coming from the dac itself, not the speaker/headphone.


----------



## pseudohippy

Quote: 





killbox said:


> But how could it be a computer issue when the sound/clicking is coming from the dac itself, not the speaker/headphone.


 


  Ok, I see what you are saying, I didnt pick up on the fact it is physically making the noise and not electronically over the headphones. That would be really annoying. I hope this gets fixed if in fact there is an issue and it sounds like there is.


----------



## ecohifi

Quote: 





killbox said:


> But how could it be a computer issue when the sound/clicking is coming from the dac itself, not the speaker/headphone.


 


  Have you notice this on previous dac?  On my gigaworks dac I have notice this which is really annoying but it only happens to a sony s580 and not a s470.  But on my EE mini max plus this is not the issue for either bluray players!


----------



## Maxvla

I get the clicking also. It's rather loud.


----------



## sampson_smith

My goal here, exactly. Looking forward to hearing impressions of this setup. Do you happen to have a LCD-2 r.1 or r.2, Ham Sandwich?
   
  Quote: 





ham sandwich said:


> The Asgard isn't doing that bad.  It's just that the LCD2 isn't opening up as much as I've heard it do with some other setups.  It's an amp and source issue.  Which is a problem that a pile of additional Schiit gear might solve.  Possibly a Lyr as amp and Bifrost as source would do the magic for me?  That's why I'm watching this thread.  To see impressions of how the Bifrost gets along with the LCD2 and a Lyr.


----------



## Killbox

Just came from a Nuforce Udac, so I have very limited experience. I'm currently experiencing some issues with my mobos soundcard at the moment, so I'm actully not able to get any sound out of the soundcard. I have ordered a new one though, since I don't want to spend the whole weekend gooing through x forums to find a solution to what I think is a driver issue or something. Asus Xonar DX is on it's way  
   
  I've just had the time to play a few tracks with my Bifrost connected  (to a different computer) and that was when I got the clicking sound. I can try to upload a video to youtube or something to so you guys can hear and see it by yourselves.


----------



## ecohifi

Quote: 





maxvla said:


> I get the clicking also. It's rather loud.


 


 Hopefully Jason is looking into this and have a fix for you guys,  Im hoping a firmware upgrade into the main pcb is possible to correct this.  On my gigawork dac and s580 combo the click is like a thump when you turned a power amp on before the pre!!!  But in saying that the gigaworks dac was only $69US


----------



## Misterrogers

Sounds a lot like some sort of relay that's tripped when you switch sample rates. While I'm curious to understand the cause, it's a non-issue for me. Btw, Bifrost landed. Burning in. Impressions to follow in a bit, but I have to say - very impressed so far. This is on my work rig (hires flacs, Decibel player, Bifrost (spdif), Lyr with Lorenz trimica's). I used to have a MSII+ (USB) in the chain.


----------



## Ham Sandwich

Quote: 





sampson_smith said:


> My goal here, exactly. Looking forward to hearing impressions of this setup. Do you happen to have a LCD-2 r.1 or r.2, Ham Sandwich?


 


  I have the rev 2 version.
  I knew the Asgard wasn't going to do it for me the way I want the LCD2 to sound.  I've been able to try the LCD2 in my setup at meets.   So I knew I'd be needing a new amp and very likely a new source as well.  For now I address the lack of openness with some EQ so I'm doing OK for now till I get the amp thing figured out.  The amp is very very very likely going to be a Lyr.


----------



## Ham Sandwich

If it's a relay click, maybe the optical out or coax out from the computer is losing sync at times and forcing the Bifrost to reset.  Bummer if there's an audible relay click kicking in all the time.
   
  I don't have a Bifrost (yet) so can't confirm.  Some troubleshooting steps would be:
  Run DPC Latency Checker and LatencyMon to make sure your computer isn't doing huge latency spikes which might cause the audio to lose sync
  Use WASAPI mode to bypass the DirectSound which may be forcing a sample rate change or unexpected sharing (mixing) of audio signals (assuming you're on Windows)
  Use a media player like Foobar or J River Media Center that can do gapless playback and WASAPI


----------



## judmarc

Quote:


ecohifi said:


> Jason,
> 
> is there a plan to get firmware for the main pcb to pesent Bitfrost owners?  And what does the firmware correct/improve?


   
  eco, you seem to be a little fixated on the firmware thing.  What Jason said was: 
   
  "The _USB boards_ that we received came with an earlier version of the firmware. We want to get you the latest, so we have to update them...."
   
  Jason hasn't said anything about a firmware update for the main pcb as far as I can tell.
  
  Now about this firmware updating thing: I've updated the firmware for my phone, my TV, my satellite receiver, my DVD/Blu-Ray player, my wireless router, and my internal SSD for my computer many times, with firmware updates made available to the public via download from the Internet.  Not a huge deal.  Yes, you can brick a device if you screw up (or if you are so very unlucky as to, for example, have the power go out in the middle of updating).  But considering the Bifrost's capabilities can be modified through downloadable files (such as USB 2.0 drivers for Windows), I'd actually be a bit surprised at this point if the Bifrost's firmware were _not _able to be modified in the same way.


----------



## Anaxilus

I can say that when I had my QA350 hooked up to the Bifrost via Coax feeding only 16/44 wavs, no clicking ever noticed on my part.  Hopefully that helps diagnose the issue.  Good ole low rez wav files, hooray!


----------



## estreeter

Quote: 





anaxilus said:


> I can say that when I had my QA350 hooked up to the Bifrost via Coax feeding only 16/44 wavs, no clicking ever noticed on my part.  Hopefully that helps diagnose the issue.  Good ole low rez wav files, hooray!


 


  Hi Anaxilus,
   
        I'm particularly interested in that combination - did I miss your impressions earlier ?
   
  Thanks,
   
  estreeter


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





estreeter said:


> Hi Anaxilus,
> 
> I'm particularly interested in that combination - did I miss your impressions earlier ?
> 
> ...


 


http://www.head-fi.org/t/577060/irvine-orange-county-meet-impressions


----------



## Maxvla

I only get the click when I use it with my cd player in my signature. It doesn't happen when connected to pc.


----------



## Yikes

Such clicks usually happen when the Data Stream is being interrupted. The DAC temporarily looses lock and the Data Stream must be reacquired. Some players stop the data stream between tracks (and some form of clicking can result), some PC configurations also can cause this issue. About 10 years ago I had a wicked expensive Krell processor that lost lock (and therefore clicked obnoxiously) between every track. It ended badly.
   
  As far as the Asgard having enough power for the LCD2 goes, when I tried them together power wasn't the issue. I ultimately preferred my HiFiMan HE5LE to the LCD2's.


----------



## ecohifi

Quote: 





judmarc said:


> I'd actually be a bit surprised at this point if the Bifrost's firmware were _not _able to be modified in the same way.


 


 I hope that your're right, I'm hoping that Bifrost is the same as all the others where It can be downloaded via web and with specific instructions can be loaded onto the main pcb. 
   
  On the devices I work on this is now not done with EEPROMS anymore, this is now done with files loaded onto an SD card.  Catastrophic if it is not done right!


----------



## gasmd

can someone with the bifrost tell me what all that mechanical clicking is coming from when switching tracks?


----------



## ecohifi

Quote: 





gasmd said:


> can someone with the bifrost tell me what all that mechanical clicking is coming from when switching tracks?


 

 Im guessing that the Soft Mute on the AK 4399 is not activated during track switching so you are hearing this click!


----------



## estreeter

@Anaxilus - thanks, and I apologise for referring to you as 'analaxative' in another post.


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





estreeter said:


> @Anaxilus - thanks, and I apologise for referring to you as 'analaxative' in another post.


 

 No problem.  Glad I could smooth things out for ya.


----------



## Questhate

Or, clear schiit up?


----------



## xxhaxx

Quote: 





gasmd said:


> can someone with the bifrost tell me what all that mechanical clicking is coming from when switching tracks?


 

 Are you using optical out from your laptop? Just asking because the clicking only happens when I use optical and when switching track. But when I use coaxial out from my Fiio E10 no clicking noise. So I am assuming that Yikes is correct about your computer/laptop stopping the data stream between tracks
   
  Hopefully this helps

  Quote: 





yikes said:


> Such clicks usually happen when the Data Stream is being interrupted. The DAC temporarily looses lock and the Data Stream must be reacquired. Some players stop the data stream between tracks (and some form of clicking can result), some PC configurations also can cause this issue. About 10 years ago I had a wicked expensive Krell processor that lost lock (and therefore clicked obnoxiously) between every track. It ended badly.
> 
> As far as the Asgard having enough power for the LCD2 goes, when I tried them together power wasn't the issue. I ultimately preferred my HiFiMan HE5LE to the LCD2's.


----------



## agisthos

I had hoped to post some impressions of the Bifrost by next week, but I just realised they use USPS for international shipping. Last time I used USPS for they took over 25 days just to leave the US borders. So far it has been a week.
  
  "sigh"


----------



## Yikes

You should try pricing International UPS or FedEx. You'll understand the use of USPS.


----------



## Pudu

yikes said:


> You should try pricing International UPS or FedEx. You'll understand the use of USPS.




The brokerage fees the others charge are criminal. There is a class action lawsuit ongoing against UPS in Canada. Stick with USPS, the value for money they offer is very good by comparison.


----------



## Denys

Quote: 





pudu said:


> The brokerage fees the others charge are criminal. There is a class action lawsuit ongoing against UPS in Canada. Stick with USPS, the value for money they offer is very good by comparison.


 

 I paid $5 USPS/Canada Post brokerage fee for my Asgard. A fellow Canadian from an other forum paid $138 for the same Asgard with UPS..... But it's true that he got his faster than me !! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Avoid UPS and Fedex as much as you can.... In fact, I never deal with a company that doesn't allow me to choose the courrier...
   
  Denys


----------



## Jason Stoddard

Hey all,
   
  Final update on USB: WE BEGIN SHIPPING TODAY!
   
  Sorry for yelling, but it's a great relief to finally get these out the door. I expect a few will go today, many will go tomorrow, and all backorders will be cleared up next week. This also means the review units ship as well, so you can expect some pro opinions soon.
   
  With respect to the clicking, that's simply the muting relay. It's completely normal. 
   
  All the best,
  Jason


----------



## ninjikiran

I aways deal with USPS for international shipping, their rates are amazing.  Shipping time ranges from deathly fast(canada, 3 days), to excruciatingly slow 1.5 weeks to eastern Europe.
   
  But UPS and Fed Ex stick it with really high fee's.  Most people seem to prefer USPS when I internationally ship.


----------



## Kremer930

Whoo hoo.  Great work Jason.
   

  
  Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> Hey all,
> 
> Final update on USB: WE BEGIN SHIPPING TODAY!
> 
> ...


----------



## sridhar3

Quote:


jason stoddard said:


> Hey all,
> 
> Final update on USB: WE BEGIN SHIPPING TODAY!
> 
> ...


 

 Congrats!  Hope to hear some impressions soon.


----------



## ecohifi

Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> With respect to the clicking, that's simply the muting relay. It's completely normal.
> 
> All the best,
> Jason


 


 Jason,
   
  is this to prevent subsonics going thought during track switching?


----------



## estreeter

Quote: 





ninjikiran said:


> I aways deal with USPS for international shipping, their rates are amazing.  Shipping time ranges from deathly fast(canada, 3 days), to excruciatingly slow 1.5 weeks to eastern Europe.
> 
> But UPS and Fed Ex stick it with really high fee's.  Most people seem to prefer USPS when I internationally ship.


 


  Guys, I started a thread about 6 months back asking amp manufacturers why their shipping rates were so high, and I got a couple of replies from Justin at Headamp - basically, his customers want their amps as quickly as possible and that means one of the US carriers that charge an arm and a leg. I certainly dont blame Justin for that, but its interesting that EMS can have iBasso gear to me within a week from Shenzhen while it takes longer than that to have Australia Post ship something from Headphonic in Perth. Same country, no Customs, but it sits in the Perth Mail Centre for days on end - there is a lot to be said for finding an efficient courier service.


----------



## ecohifi

Quote: 





estreeter said:


> Guys, I started a thread about 6 months back asking amp manufacturers why their shipping rates were so high, and I got a couple of replies from Justin at Headamp - basically, his customers want their amps as quickly as possible and that means one of the US carriers that charge an arm and a leg. I certainly dont blame Justin for that, but its interesting that EMS can have iBasso gear to me within a week from Shenzhen while it takes longer than that to have Australia Post ship something from Headphonic in Perth. Same country, no Customs, but it sits in the Perth Mail Centre for days on end - there is a lot to be said for finding an efficient courier service.


 


 I had stuff sent through USPS which was OK for about 3 to 4 times but the last package didn't arrived.  I thought It was lost and the company in the US and I had declaired it missing, this was in the January this year.  The US company was good enought to redispatched another package that arrive in the usual time frame through USPS.  A month ago the missing package shows up!!
  I also had UPS send me stuff from Digikey, this package went across US and then to Hawaii, it sat there for 48hrs before arriving in Sydney.  What I was discussed at was UPS left the package in my electric meter box and did not shut the cover.  It was banging around and my wife discovered it there by accident!!!!


----------



## estreeter

I *always* have gear delivered to my workplace - always. Couriers have absolutely no excuse for not getting a signature, and I recognise the signature of everyone who works here - trying to tell me that they left it with 'some guy' just isnt going to cut it. Our regular courier is quite good, but some of them are complete rogues.


----------



## ecohifi

Quote: 





estreeter said:


> I *always* have gear delivered to my workplace - always. Couriers have absolutely no excuse for not getting a signature, and I recognise the signature of everyone who works here - trying to tell me that they left it with 'some guy' just isnt going to cut it. Our regular courier is quite good, but some of them are complete rogues.


 


 Brilliant idea, and you're a lucky guy but I'm out on the road and they dont want me in the office, if you have seen our dispatched and w/housing: no way I have things delivered there.  FedEx are more positive than other they need to scan out and require a signiture or the package is not released, but thats Melbourne!!!


----------



## judmarc

Progress report for other folks in line for Bifrost USB models:
   
  I'm USB order #35, and got my final invoice this morning at 4:18 am local time, 1:18 am California time, so looks like it's shipping out today. 
   
  The Schiit folks don't seem to be getting a whole lotta sleep these days if that invoice time is any indication.


----------



## RazorJack

Off-topic discussion going on, but here's another vote against using UPS. Don't see the point in going into detail as to why, but I've simply had too many bad experience with their service. No more UPS for me, I avoid them at all costs. If I need small packages sent from the US with not too high value contents (like LP's. well, depending on the album, of course!) I prefer USPS, for more expensive stuff like head-fi gear, FedEx all the way  Here in Europe though I much prefer DHL and DPD.


----------



## lotriwer

For guys who have already received the DAC: When connected through coaxial or optical, do you see it as a separate device in Foobar or J River or is it the dedicated soundcard out (Windows 7)?
  Thanks


----------



## dyl1dyl

Yay, now that the Bifrost backorders are going to be cleared up very soon, Jason and Mike can start looking at the balanced stuff.


----------



## Defiant00

Quote: 





lotriwer said:


> For guys who have already received the DAC: When connected through coaxial or optical, do you see it as a separate device in Foobar or J River or is it the dedicated soundcard out (Windows 7)?
> Thanks


 


  While I don't have a Bifrost (yet), it would be the digital out from your sound card that you would select. Your computer has no way of knowing what the signal's going to, it's just outputting a digital signal and assuming you've got something down the chain that will do something with it.


----------



## leesure

Got my re-authorization e-mail...seems my USB unit will be shipping soon.


----------



## pseudohippy

Quote: 





leesure said:


> Got my re-authorization e-mail...seems my USB unit will be shipping soon.


 


  Order number ?


----------



## HyperM3

Ive been staring at my bifrost for 2 days now sitting in my rack but unable to use because Im waiting for cables to come in for it. Fortunately, they will be arriving today so Ill be able to hook it all up tonight when I get home from work. Just for etification, Ill be hooking up two sources to mine(logitech touch through optical and cable box through coax) with speakers. Ill post up my impressions over the weekend hopefully.


----------



## Kremer930

I just watched Thor the movie.  It was interesting hearing, Asgard, Valhalla and Bifrost all together.  The Bifrost was very powerful.


----------



## 45longcolt

My Bifrost clicks with each new CD in the player, a Marantz. With my other DAC, the Marantz loses lock between CDs, while with my old Rega player lock was unbroken as long as the player was on. Fortunately, I don't mind the click, since according to Jason it's normal.
   
  Also, surprised that nobody pointed out that in my last post I wrote "taught" instead of "taut" when referring to bass reproduction.  Or you were all too polite to point it out.
   
  Still liking the Bifrost quite a bit. It seems a bit more midrange focused than the Marantz alone or my other DAC, though I suspect that might be interconnect-related. Perhaps this weekend I'll have some time to experiment.


----------



## redmonddad

Order #5 here...still no word on my order.  Was your invoice a reauthorization of your payment?  Or a notification from Schiit that your order is processing? 
   
  My payment was from early on when PayPal immediately disbursed funds, so I wouldn't expect a reauthorization notice.  However, if you received some other notification from Schiit that you order is now processing, then I would be concerned that Schiit is processing orders out of sequence.

  
  Quote: 





judmarc said:


> Progress report for other folks in line for Bifrost USB models:
> 
> I'm USB order #35, and got my final invoice this morning at 4:18 am local time, 1:18 am California time, so looks like it's shipping out today.
> 
> The Schiit folks don't seem to be getting a whole lotta sleep these days if that invoice time is any indication.


----------



## Jason Stoddard

Any prepaid orders that didn't ship yesterday will ship today.
   
  Quote: 





redmonddad said:


> Order #5 here...still no word on my order.  Was your invoice a reauthorization of your payment?  Or a notification from Schiit that your order is processing?
> 
> My payment was from early on when PayPal immediately disbursed funds, so I wouldn't expect a reauthorization notice.  However, if you received some other notification from Schiit that you order is now processing, then I would be concerned that Schiit is processing orders out of sequence.


----------



## judmarc

Quote:


redmonddad said:


> Order #5 here...still no word on my order.  Was your invoice a reauthorization of your payment?  Or a notification from Schiit that your order is processing?
> 
> My payment was from early on when PayPal immediately disbursed funds, so I wouldn't expect a reauthorization notice.  However, if you received some other notification from Schiit that you order is now processing, then I would be concerned that Schiit is processing orders out of sequence.


 

 No other notification - as you guessed, it was a reauthorization.


----------



## redmonddad

The USB units are definitely on their way.  Just received tracking info from PayPal @ 11:48pm PDT on order #5.
   
  Thanks, Jason!


----------



## sampson_smith

I just received tracking information as well (for a non-USB Bifrost). Yippee! Any idea how long, via regular USPS, it takes this little Schiit to reach Canadian shores?


----------



## 333jeffery

I got my Bifrost and Lyr today. After spending a few hours listening to them through my HD600's, and comparing them to an Arcam FMJ cd player/Cambridge Audio preamp setup, I've concluded that they are a helluva bargain. Their sound easily equals that of the much more expensive Arcam, and at times, even surpasses it. The Bifrost has a very clear sound without being harsh. It pairs perfectly with the Lyr.
  For those curious about such things, I'm using Mullard ECC88's in the Lyr. Very clean sound, much like the solid-state Cambridge Audio preamp in my main system. No noise/hum whatsoever, and no clicking between tracks (I'm using the coax connection).  A worthy upgrade for folks using cheap DAC's, and a huge step up for those not using any DAC at all.


----------



## lotriwer

Thank you.
  
  Quote: 





defiant00 said:


> While I don't have a Bifrost (yet), it would be the digital out from your sound card that you would select. Your computer has no way of knowing what the signal's going to, it's just outputting a digital signal and assuming you've got something down the chain that will do something with it.


----------



## HyperM3

Finally got my cables and my bifrost hooked up last night. After some frustration with my cable box I ended up connecting optical from my TV to the BF and Coax from my Logi Touch to the BF.
   
  First thing I noticed when playing music from my iTunes(Apple Lossless) through the touch was how much brighter all the intruments sounded. I hate using the metaphore so loosely but it truly made my speakers sound like they had been "unveiled". There was an incredible amount of depth to the soundstage that wasnt present before. I was very happy with the increase in musical enjoyment this little investment added. I will give it more time to break in and give it a listen but so far I would definitely suggest this product to anyone on the fence.
   
  The only downside I think I may have perceived is that my bass doesnt seem to hit as low as before. The mid-bass seems tighter but the low slams dont seem to vibrate my couch as they did previously. I wish this had some sort of IR ability to change input. This is the only product in my whole house that I have to get up from my listening/watching area to change.


----------



## lotriwer

Can anyone recommend a soundcard for Bifrost (optical or coaxial out), that is capable of 88.2, 96, 176.4 and 192 digital output?
  Thanks in advance.


----------



## MtnSloth

Someone asked about interfaces and how they appear with the Bifrost. Someone stated that nothing shows when using the TOSLINK interface. On my Mac that is mostly true; I just select "Digital Out" when using TOSLINK. However, when using USB, the Bifrost shows up as "Schiit USB Interface".


----------



## Yikes

I believe that the question was specifically regarding when using SPDIF, still it's nice to know that it's a little more than a generic USB driver.


----------



## Shubar

Woohoo, finally arrived and waiting for me in the post office!


----------



## yeemanz

Quote: 





shubar said:


> Woohoo, finally arrived and waiting for me in the post office!


 


  Nice, made it in before cup day!


----------



## Kremer930

Hot diggety! Order number 157 has now left the building. Whoo hoo. 
   
  Great work Jason. 
   
  Now I will be able to sit back listening to my Lyr and Bifrost combo and dream of statement gear.


----------



## Shubar

All I can say is you're going to enjoy it!!! Having such a blast on mine


----------



## 333jeffery

I'm loving my Bifrost/Lyr combo with my hd600's. There is no listening fatigue whatsoever. In fact, the only negative thing I can come up with in regards to the Bifrost, is that it doesn't have the resolving power of the "reference grade" DACS. Of course, some folks may prefer this as it keeps it from sounding dry and analytical. Still an excellent piece of kit for the money.


----------



## Argo Duck

That's something a number of us are interested to know - which reference grade DACs do you refer to?
   
  Cheers.
  
  Quote: 





333jeffery said:


> I'm loving my Bifrost/Lyr combo with my hd600's. There is no listening fatigue whatsoever. In fact, the only negative thing I can come up with in regards to the Bifrost, is that it *doesn't have the resolving power of the "reference grade" DACS*. Of course, some folks may prefer this as it keeps it from sounding dry and analytical. Still an excellent piece of kit for the money.


----------



## Butler

333jeffery said:


> I'm loving my Bifrost/Lyr combo with my hd600's. There is no listening fatigue whatsoever. In fact, the only negative thing I can come up with in regards to the Bifrost, is that it doesn't have the resolving power of the "reference grade" DACS. Of course, some folks may prefer this as it keeps it from sounding dry and analytical. Still an excellent piece of kit for the money.




Less fatiguing!? That's great to hear. Maybe I can unmod my W5000's once my bifrost rolls in. Without the mod on an average volume, those things can make your ears real tired and sore due to some harsh mids and highs… The F5005 mod that's here on the forum fixed that up real good. But.. If I could go stock again by changing the DAC that would be amazing!


----------



## Misterrogers

Thought I'd share my experience with cabling Bifrost. I replaced my work MSII+ with Bifrost, and used a generic optical spdif for the connection. Sounded wonderful, though the very bottom seemed rolled off a bit. My Silflex glass optical cable arrived today, and that made a noticeable difference. The bottom end is there is with force, clarity and slam, with a slight improvement in clarity overall. Now this probably speaks mostly to the poor quality of the cable I was using - but I thought I'd mention it as others may have  a similar experience.


----------



## internethandle

USB order #215 ship confirmation sent today!


----------



## Kremer930

I have found that Glass toslink cables sound better too.  I havent done any real comparisons on the mega stranded glass cables though.
   
  Quote: 





misterrogers said:


> Thought I'd share my experience with cabling Bifrost. I replaced my work MSII+ with Bifrost, and used a generic optical spdif for the connection. Sounded wonderful, though the very bottom seemed rolled off a bit. My Silflex glass optical cable arrived today, and that made a noticeable difference. The bottom end is there is with force, clarity and slam, with a slight improvement in clarity overall. Now this probably speaks mostly to the poor quality of the cable I was using - but I thought I'd mention it as others may have  a similar experience.


 
   
  Have people played around to see what the Coax versus the optical sound signatures are like?  I will only have the choice of using either optical or usb from my Mac but will be able to test the coax output from my Bluray player.  Since the sources are different I wont be able to do a proper 3 way comparison.


----------



## 188479

Anybody have a chance to run it through USB with the downloaded driver for Win 7?


----------



## kiteki

General question: When listening to different DAC's, do you find the differences are more noticeable on headphones... or on speakers?


----------



## Hero Kid

Quote: 





kiteki said:


> General question: When listening to different DAC's, do you find the differences are more noticeable on headphones... or on speakers?


 

 From my (limited) experience I would say headphones.


----------



## Argo Duck

IME (also limited) I found differences "pretty noticeable" with either. I can't say which was easier. However, I have not so far listened systematically for differences (i.e., applied review conditions). The few tracks I happened to A/B in each case may have been lucky ones to try.
   
  Once my bifrost arrives I intend to do several planned comparisons. My view may change.


----------



## estreeter

Gotta love the fact that it sounds better than the UDac-2. Feet, stop dancing.


----------



## xxhaxx

Quote: 





188479 said:


> Anybody have a chance to run it through USB with the downloaded driver for Win 7?


 

 If it is not working try setting the Biforst/SPDIF to be the default player through window


----------



## Butler

kremer930 said:


> I have found that Glass toslink cables sound better too.  I havent done any real comparisons on the mega stranded glass cables though.
> 
> 
> Have people played around to see what the Coax versus the optical sound signatures are like?  I will only have the choice of using either optical or usb from my Mac but will be able to test the coax output from my Bluray player.  Since the sources are different I wont be able to do a proper 3 way comparison.




I on the other hand would like to see optical vs USB signatures, which was a heated debate a handful of pages back.


----------



## kiteki

It's just async'd 001011011101010011 I don't think glass will make a difference.


----------



## redmonddad

Just got my USB Bifrost today.  Eager to get started, so I'm trying to get it up and running on both a Windows Vista and a Windows 7 machine.  Two problems:
   
  1) The transformer is emitting a low hum sound.  It's somewhat amplified since I've temporarily placed the Bifrost directly on a hardware floor (no feet, but it is audible even if I hold it suspended in the air).
   
  2) I cannot get the Schiit USB Interface driver to work.  The device installation installs a USB HID (Human Interface Device) device, a USB Composite device, and two Schiit USB Interface devices.  One of the Schiit USB Interface devices fails to start, so for now I do not have a functional sound device.  The description of the failure is:
   
*[size=xx-small][size=xx-small]Description[/size][/size]*
    [size=xx-small]Windows was able to successfully install device driver software, but the driver software encountered a problem when it tried to run. The problem code is 10.[/size]
*[size=xx-small][size=xx-small]Problem signature[/size][/size]*
    [size=xx-small]Problem Event Name: PnPDeviceProblemCode[/size]
  [size=xx-small]Architecture: x86[/size]
  [size=xx-small]Hardware Id: USB\VID_0D8C&PID_0304&REV_2204&MI_00[/size]
  [size=xx-small]Setup class GUID: {4d36e96c-e325-11ce-bfc1-08002be10318}[/size]
  [size=xx-small]PnP problem code: 0000000A[/size]
  [size=xx-small]Driver name: usbaudio.sys[/size]
  [size=xx-small]Driver version: 6.0.6002.18005[/size]
  [size=xx-small]Driver date: 04-11-2009[/size]
  [size=xx-small]OS Version: 6.0.6002.2.2.0.256.1[/size]
  [size=xx-small]Locale ID: 1033[/size]


----------



## estreeter

Quote: 





redmonddad said:


> Just got my USB Bifrost today.  Eager to get started, so I'm trying to get it up and running on both a Windows Vista and a Windows 7 machine.  Two problems:
> 
> 1) The transformer is emitting a low hum sound.  It's somewhat amplified since I've temporarily placed the Bifrost directly on a hardware floor (no feet, but it is audible even if I hold it suspended in the air).


 
   
  Read the 6Moons review on the Asgard - Jason feels that transformer hum is 'normal' - dont know if that holds for a DAC, but it seemed to be his stance with their first amp.


----------



## Jason Stoddard

Hey all:
   
  1. We haven't experienced that error on Win7--in fact, the driver has simply worked with all the Win7, Vista, and XP systems we tried it with. All I can think is try to reinstall the driver, try it on another system, and let us know if it doesn't work. We'll also see what C-Media has to say about it.
   
  2. A tiny amount of transformer hum can be normal (ear to chassis kind of thing), but I've never said excessive hum is normal--in fact, in the 6Moons review, I said we contacted the transformer manufacturer and changed the process to eliminate the hum, or at least dramatically reduce it. Which was done in 2010.
   
  Hope this helps a bit.
   
  All the best,
  Jason


----------



## redmonddad

Re: transformer...
   
  I am familiar with the 6Moons review and I do have an Asgard.  I believe the hum on my Bifrost is louder than my Asgard.  However, as the Asgard is at work, I will not be able to compare the noise level until tomorrow.
   
  From your statement below, I take it that you would agree that the hum is excessive if it is greater than the amount of transformer hum on the Asgard?
  
  As for the driver issue, I'll have another machine to try out at work (which is the intended machine for this DAC anyway).
  
  Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> Hey all:
> 
> 1. We haven't experienced that error on Win7--in fact, the driver has simply worked with all the Win7, Vista, and XP systems we tried it with. All I can think is try to reinstall the driver, try it on another system, and let us know if it doesn't work. We'll also see what C-Media has to say about it.
> 
> ...


----------



## zelidu

Amount of hum from transformers will greatly be influenced by DC component within local mains (110/220Vac) waveform. Some locations have great deal of DC component nowadays, which is causing saturation of iron core of a typical PS transformer.
  It is almost always improvement if special Low flux and/or Air-Gapped Core mains insulation transformers are used for powering all electronics for audio applications.
   
  Best to all,
  Zelidu


----------



## Edoardo

Quote: 





kiteki said:


> General question: When listening to different DAC's, do you find the differences are more noticeable on headphones... or on speakers?


 
  I do tests with headphones, just because if the room is not _perfectly _treated, you can hear substantial differences just moving your head a few inches here and there. That's where placebos come from.


----------



## matt_u9

*redmonddad* Try this driver http://dhost.info/mhdtlab/Usbdriver.htm
  The same USB Chip CM6631.


----------



## judmarc

Quote:


kiteki said:


> It's just async'd 001011011101010011 I don't think glass will make a difference.


 


 Mental models can be harmful when they leave out significant data.  There are no "zeros" and "ones" moving down wires in digital audio.  There is an analog signal that *represents* zeros and ones.  If it is an electrical signal, it is subject to the same sorts of problems as other electrical signals (noise through signal connection, noise through ground connection, interference from RF and other sources...).  An optical connection eliminates many of the problems with electrical signals but introduces others (for example, termination quality in optical cables is particularly important).
   
  As always, the best and easiest way to tell if something performs better in your system is to listen.  (Being mindful, of course, of what Richard Feynman said: "The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool.")


----------



## ecohifi

Quote: 





kiteki said:


> General question: When listening to different DAC's, do you find the differences are more noticeable on headphones... or on speakers?


 


 To my old ears I find that headphones are more resolving, especially if you have a Stax Lamba.  I judge all components with these and then thu my main rig which are 6ft ribbons that I have put together.  The differences are more noticable on cans then thru speakers


----------



## christophrowley

Quote: 





judmarc said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> Mental models can be harmful when they leave out significant data.  There are no "zeros" and "ones" moving down wires in digital audio.  There is an analog signal that *represents* zeros and ones.  If it is an electrical signal, it is subject to the same sorts of problems as other electrical signals (noise through signal connection, noise through ground connection, interference from RF and other sources...).  An optical connection eliminates many of the problems with electrical signals but introduces others (for example, termination quality in optical cables is particularly important).
> ...


 

 I don't claim to be an expert but surely that's backwards. The digital "zeroes" and "ones" you refer to represent the signal, not the other way round. If it was an analogue signal in the first place, what use would a Digital to Analogue Converter be?


----------



## ecohifi

Quote: 





christophrowley said:


> I don't claim to be an expert but surely that's backwards. The digital "zeroes" and "ones" you refer to represent the signal, not the other way round. If it was an analogue signal in the first place, what use would a Digital to Analogue Converter be?


 


  To transmit digital signal at long distances using 0 and 1 is limited to the medium it is done, to transmit these zeros and ones successfully it is done on an analog waveform that is modulated. this is also the same for optical transmission.  So the signal is modulated at the transmission end and demodulated at the receiving end that converts it back to 0 and 1 with error correction built in.


----------



## christophrowley

Quote: 





ecohifi said:


> To transmit digital signal at long distances using 0 and 1 is limited to the medium it is done, to transmit these zeros and ones successfully it is done on an analog waveform that is modulated. this is also the same for optical transmission.  So the signal is modulated at the transmission end and demodulated at the receiving end that converts it back to 0 and 1 with error correction built in.


 

  
  Well you learn something new every day. Anywhere you could recommend me to read up on this?


----------



## ecohifi

Here are my gathering of info so far on this thread for the bifrost:
   
  good sound stage and detailed sound
   
  Lack of bass and base resolution
   
  Doesnt beat $3k dacs
   
  Has issues with curtain win 7 drivers thru usb as win m/c doesnt recognised the unit
   
  Has loud clicking issues that is considered normal due to activation of relays when changing tracks!
   
  No acknowledgement of possibilty of remote firmware upgrades on presently owned units
   
  Hum issues, undefined whether its due to the transformer or is it thu audio outputs?
   
  Hate to be -ve but what other things have I missed thats going to come under "normal" 
   
  The hype for this product was so +ve but thats when noone has owned it.  My prediction is that once the review units reach there destination the write ups are going to be flowery!!


----------



## ecohifi

Quote: 





christophrowley said:


> Well you learn something new every day. Anywhere you could recommend me to read up on this?


 

 Look for topics such as analog/data transmission,  As you research this topic the details will overwhelm you, because in practice the measurements that are done during pracs sometimes do not prove the theory.  Good place to start is networking and connecting PCs


----------



## rocky500

What I have gleemed from this thread so far echohifi even though there have not been many of them out in the wild reporting back, is this is most probably one of the worlds best Dacs in its price range. But really to early to tell.
   
  I also did not read that the clicking was loud. I thought it was when the bitrate changed not just from track to track.
  Only one person has had trouble with Windows 7. (This must be a record when using a product with microsoft windows) 
  I must have missed the part that generaly the bass was lacking.
  Only 1 person has had a hum problem that I can see.
   
  I think your really trying to judge a product that you have not heard yet I take it?
  I personally am looking forward to getting mine ASAP. Hopefully order 500 is comming up shortly.
   
  Also don't think there are many Dacs in this price range that are user firmware upgradable.


----------



## Defiant00

So Jason,
   
  Now that Bifrosts are on their way does that mean that Asgards will start shipping again as well?


----------



## 333jeffery

I don't know why folks are saying there's a lack of bass with the Bifrost. When I played Bach's Toccata and Fugue on it connected to the Lyr, it practically made my teeth wiggle.
  Still no hum or clicking from my unit, either.


----------



## ecohifi

Quote: 





333jeffery said:


> I don't know why folks are saying there's a lack of bass with the Bifrost. When I played Bach's Toccata and Fugue on it connected to the Lyr, it practically made my teeth wiggle.
> Still no hum or clicking from my unit, either.


 


 You're the lucky one,  this is the only dac thats claim to be upgradable,


----------



## Argo Duck

IIRC _one_ person commented on there being slightly less bass extension (otherwise good sounding) on first impressions. Hard to know how to interpret this without more reporting. Obviously, 333jeffery finds no such problem!
   
  I think eco summarized well the negative points. Now I look forward to a good comprehensive review that gives us the full picture. We might see Rob's (Skylab) review in the next 2-3 weeks, perhaps with the LCD3 in the chain! Rob just posted his review of this 'phone, and found it very revealing of source.


----------



## ecohifi

Quote: 





rocky500 said:


> What I have gleemed from this thread so far echohifi even though there have not been many of them out in the wild reporting back, is this is most probably one of the worlds best Dacs in its price range. But really to early to tell.
> 
> I also did not read that the clicking was loud. I thought it was when the bitrate changed not just from track to track.
> Only one person has had trouble with Windows 7. (This must be a record when using a product with microsoft windows)
> ...


 

 Dont want to be negative and turn you off on your order,  I like someone to compare it to a Sabre implementation,  there is a couple of post that mention that it is good for the price and not many that have dacs that are in the $1000US range that have done the comparision.  I prefer to read post from people that own it than take it from 6moons or stereophile etc, these sites are going to give you a glowing review  and a typical predicted outcome.  You're right I haven't heard one yet.  It is also good that people are posting their issues they are having and waiting on the reponse form Jason as this gives me the opportunity to judge the kind of customer service and how well the QC is during production.
   
  It is a very interestring dac which other competition is not jumping into that is credit to the people at Schiit.   This is why Im following this thread.  Im not going to order yet cause I just purchased a EE mini max plus.  All the threads about this dac is also glowing and not many criticism.  Having owned a $69US dac,  this is probably the best value compared to the EE mini max plus.  So im going to wait a while and hoping that Schiit will come good with a statement dac!


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





argo duck said:


> IIRC _one_ person commented on there being slightly less bass extension (otherwise good sounding) on first impressions.


 

 I believe you mean purrin.  He was quite clear in referring to the lowest octave.  Not the same as being light on bass.


----------



## Argo Duck

Absolutely agree, but nope purrin is not who I meant. I just found it - I did say IIRC: "...The only downside I think I may have perceived is that my bass doesnt seem to hit as low as before. The mid-bass seems tighter but the low slams dont seem to vibrate my couch as they did previously..." (HyperM3, post 1282, p.86)
  
  Quote: 





> I believe you mean purrin.  He was quite clear in referring to the lowest octave.  Not the same as being light on bass.


 

  
  Edits: added "purrin is not who I meant" and... my point simply was no _one_ impression is enough to generalize from. I guess HyperM3 + purrin makes two. Still no statistical power.


----------



## redmonddad

Quote: 





matt_u9 said:


> *redmonddad* Try this driver http://dhost.info/mhdtlab/Usbdriver.htm
> The same USB Chip CM6631.


 


  Thanks, I wish I had seen this earlier.  I would have liked to try it out, but it's too late.  Jason asked that I send the unit back.  The transformer hum is significantly louder than that of the Asgard and that alone justifies a return.  Meanwhile, I have tried installing the USB device on 5 different machines now.  Looks like the USB card might be bad.  I have to say though, as we have come to expect from Schiit, Jason has been fantastically responsive to this.  I may be having a few issues right now, but Schiit customer support totally ROCKS!  Companies like this need to be rewarded!
   
  Meanwhile, before I sent the unit back today, I did manage to get it running over the optical connection.  I don't have another discrete DAC to compare it against, so my perspective is how much difference a discrete/dedicated DAC has against a mid-level PC sound card (in this case, a Creative X-Fi).  I used a Schiit Asgard for amplification with Blue Jeans Cable interconnects to the X-Fi and Bifrost.  Wish I had a switcher for quick A/B comparisons, but I had to live with interconnect swaps.  For cans, I used a Senn HD598 and a Denon AH-D5000.
   
  So for someone getting their first discrete DAC...was it a day and night difference?  Did it totally transform the experience?  Well, no, not for me, at least with the class of equipment I have.  When I went from the Rega EAR amp to the Asgard, that was a huge difference.  When I switched from my Grado SR-225's to the Denon's, that was a huge difference.  With that kit as a baseline, the Bifrost did not give me that leap to the next plateau of sonic pleasure.  What it did do was provide an incremental improvement to the resolution, detail, and seperation for my particular setup.  My primary impression is that there is a subtle improvement in the little details, like a bit more definition in hearing the click of drumsticks, the brush of a finger, and the slight intake of breath.  I am not hearing new things, but what is there I am distinguishing a bit better with the Bifrost than with the old X-Fi.  I think that there is also a bit more detail or tightness on the bass end, particularly with the Denon AH-D5000 phones, which can get a bit sloppy on the low-end.
   
  I am not a super-high end audiophile and I'm definitely on the value end of the spectrum.  I think of my perspective as mainly that of someone just a tiny bit past dipping into this space.  So all that being said, I'm not looking for a refund out of my return.  I plan to wait for Jason to help resolve the issues with my Bifrost unit so that I can get back to listening to it.


----------



## ecohifi

[size=x-small]redmonddad[/size],
   
  well said,
   
  If Jason has unconditionally asked you to returned it and cover the all freight cost it would be in Schiits best interest for business and I would have nothing but praise for him. 
   
  I had an issue my first EE mini max plus that refused to lock onto the s/pdif signal and the unit had to be cycled off/on to reset.  I got a 'use a better cable' response from Morningstar but the dealer I was dealing with were kind enough to a full refund, so instead I requested them to replace it and my current unit hasn't display this locking issue once even if I used the same gear.
   
  There is nothing worst to cop a series of try this or that when there is clearly an issue!
   
  My 1st dac was a gigaworks dac with a BB1798 chip this is clearly the best $69.00US value I had spent trying.  Unfortunately it will make your ears bleed with certain recordings,  the EE mini max plus doesn't exhibit this so thats why I opt to keep it.  Very detailed especially at the top end, overall a fine smooth quality in SQ but no wow factor as I was hoping for due to the hype on many threads.  So I was disappointed.  The beauty about the EE mini max is the ability that you can roll in opamps.  Im hoping that someone that has ordered a Bifrost has a EE mini max to compare it with and post there findings!
   
  Hopefully, and I am sure another unit will resolved your hum issue


----------



## Argo Duck

Eco I have the MiniMax (not the plus), and it has a faulty USB. Replacement was an option but as I didn't intend to use its USB I accepted a part-refund instead, in lieu of having to ship it back overseas.
   
  My previous DAC option was that built into my Meier Corda Opera. Not surprisingly I found the EE a considerable advance - lively, transparent, highly resolving (details I hadn't heard before), and possibly timbrally different (difficult to disentangle this from the extra resolution).
   
  Meier's standalone DAC is similarly a large step up from his Opera's DAC stage. (And no, I haven't yet formally compared the MM and StageDAC).
   
  For me the MiniMax was a "wow" but I have to qualify this by saying the LCD2 arrived within a month. MiniMax + <various amps> + LCD2 is a big change from Opera + RS1. The LCD2 factor made me take headgear as seriously as speaker gear for the first time. (And FWIW I prefer the MiniMax with headphones and [Edit:] Concerto StageDAC with speakers ATM).
   
  I look forward to the bifrost (once I can get it out of customs and delivered) not because I expect it to be better or worse - I really don't know what to expect - but because I'm curious about what, if anything, it will do differently. All part of my Schiit odyssey


----------



## judmarc

_The mid-bass seems tighter but the low slams dont seem to vibrate my couch as they did previously..."_
   
  Yes, I'm wondering whether that means there's less bass or what's there is better controlled.  The Bifrost should be delivered Thursday; will have to see if our power is back on by then.  (In Pennsylvania, hard hit by early snowstorm causing widespread power outages - been 4 days and counting....)


----------



## Maxvla

I think I might notice a very slight reduction in bass compared to the DACMagic, but the clarity of the mids/treble versus the DACMagic is so much better it's hardly believable I listened to the DACMagic for as long as I did. The bass from the Bifrost is smooth and clean, hits very nicely, but may not be quite as loud or as much reverberation. Surely not the best DAC ever, but clearly a huge step up in this price bracket.


----------



## Traddad

I'm torn.   I really love the fact that the Bifrost is made in the USA by a small company of audio geeks...I also love the simplicity and styling and I love the no BS philosophy.   The problem is, right now it's a "pig in a poke" (old expression, not perjorative) with very few, if any, "professional" reviews.  What reviews I've read here have been luke warm at best.  Add these things to a pinched checkbook and you can guess why I'm hesitant to jump in, even with the 15 day money back guarantee.
  A confounding issue is the plethora of glowing reviews for some if it's competitors (AKA: the TC-7520SEG and the Dacmagic).  Both a bit long in the tooth but still great performers.   The last DAC I owned was the TC-7520 (not Caiman) and I absolutely loved the detail.  The Caiman gets much the same reviews only more so.
  I love detail.  I love to hear the ice tinkling in the highball glasses and the casual conversations on a live jazz recording.   I love all the little details in a classical work and the chord changes on Chris Whitley's guitar.
   
  Can the Bifrost deliver this?


----------



## ecohifi

Quote: 





argo duck said:


> Eco I have the MiniMax (not the plus), and it has a faulty USB. Replacement was an option but as I didn't intend to use its USB I accepted a part-refund instead, in lieu of having to ship it back overseas.
> 
> My previous DAC option was that built into my Meier Corda Opera. Not surprisingly I found the EE a considerable advance - lively, transparent, highly resolving (details I hadn't heard before), and possibly timbrally different (difficult to disentangle this from the extra resolution).
> 
> ...


 
  AiDee,
   
  do you have a Stax Lamba Professional?  If so I hope you can do a comparision with the LCD2  when you get it!  In saying that the Stax have a unique sound, you either love it or hate it!


----------



## Maxvla

traddad said:


> I'm torn.   I really love the fact that the Bifrost is made in the USA by a small company of audio geeks...I also love the simplicity and styling and I love the no BS philosophy.   The problem is, right now it's a "pig in a poke" (old expression, not perjorative) with very few, if any, "professional" reviews.  What reviews I've read here have been luke warm at best.  Add these things to a pinched checkbook and you can guess why I'm hesitant to jump in, even with the 15 day money back guarantee.
> A confounding issue is the plethora of glowing reviews for some if it's competitors (AKA: the TC-7520SEG and the Dacmagic).  Both a bit long in the tooth but still great performers.   The last DAC I owned was the TC-7520 (not Caiman) and I absolutely loved the detail.  The Caiman gets much the same reviews only more so.
> I love detail.  I love to hear the ice tinkling in the highball glasses and the casual conversations on a live jazz recording.   I love all the little details in a classical work and the chord changes on Chris Whitley's guitar.
> 
> Can the Bifrost deliver this?




See my comments in the post above yours regarding the DACMagic. As to fine details, I'm listening to the Mozart violin concerto that is track #5 on the HDTracks 24/96 demo disc (you can download for yourself) and I can hear things like the breath of the player, when the player barely touches an extra string by accident which is very faint from a distance, but happens often. I hear the orchestra shuffling pages, moving their instruments into rest position during the cadenza, and so much more. It's quite good.

Also, I don't put any faith in 'professional' reviews. Nobody should, imo, unless the magazine/site publicly displays their financial information. Non-professional reviews like most found here by names like Skylab, Joker, and the like are not to be trusted out right either, but if you follow their reviews, look at their gear as time passes, their posts in threads on the topics you are following, you'll find out if they are being consistent or merely trying to be the big man on campus to get attention. If you put in the time to find people who share the same preferences you do, or can at least draw confident conclusions from, you have found your best reviewers.


----------



## Argo Duck

I do. I've had it since 1992, supplied with the stock energizer so nothing special. It didn't persuade me away from speakers, but I do appreciate its qualities in terms of upper extension and resolution.
   
  I will report back in due course - bifrost in my hands next week I expect, then a week to 10 days to come up with some worthwhile impressions 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  Quote: 





ecohifi said:


> AiDee,
> 
> do you have a Stax Lamba Professional?  If so I hope you can do a comparision with the LCD2  when you get it!  In saying that the Stax have a unique sound, you either love it or hate it!


----------



## estreeter

Quote: 





traddad said:


> I'm torn.   I really love the fact that the Bifrost is made in the USA by a small company of audio geeks...I also love the simplicity and styling and I love the no BS philosophy.   The problem is, right now it's a "pig in a poke" (old expression, not perjorative) with very few, if any, "professional" reviews.  What reviews I've read here have been luke warm at best.  Add these things to a pinched checkbook and you can guess why I'm hesitant to jump in, even with the 15 day money back guarantee.
> A confounding issue is the plethora of glowing reviews for some if it's competitors (AKA: the TC-7520SEG and the Dacmagic).  Both a bit long in the tooth but still great performers.   The last DAC I owned was the TC-7520 (not Caiman) and I absolutely loved the detail.  The Caiman gets much the same reviews only more so.
> I love detail.  I love to hear the ice tinkling in the highball glasses and the casual conversations on a live jazz recording.   I love all the little details in a classical work and the chord changes on Chris Whitley's guitar.
> 
> Can the Bifrost deliver this?


 
   
  I dont know what the Bifrost can and cant do, but I'm fairly confident that it will still be available in 3, 4 or 6 months from now. Say what you will about their gear, but this doesn't appear to be another Singlepower.


----------



## decayed.cell

Hm I know clicking is normal but EVERY time I open a folder in Windows I'm clicking? Also if I press stop, play, pause or anything in foobar? Also, does anyone else find the white lights at the front a bit bright? I think if they were diffused it would be easier on the eyes (especially at night). Oh and this thing sounds like the bomb its so good


----------



## agisthos

BIFROST impressions with speakers, not headphones, and via coaxial....

 Guys I can only fairly compare against a CA751 BD player. This has what is essentially a DacMagic built in, same wolfsen dac chips for each channel, same Anagram Q5 upsampling technology, but without the benefit of a seperate dedicated enclosure.

 In the past I have had a Meridian 200/203 Transport/DAC, Meridian 508 CD, Marantz BD7004 BD, Firestone Spitfire/PSU, and Audio-GD NFB-2.

 But all those were heard with different speakers, and my new Vapor Sound Cirrus speakers are absolutely killers. They use a RAAL tweeter that extends very high, and also have Teflon V-Capacitors and Duelund resistors in a point to point wired crossover. Internal wiring is Mundorf silver/gold. So I am now hearing all upstream changes like cables and equipment to a very high degree compared to previous setups.

 With that out the way, the Bifrost is substantially better than the Cambridge. There is just as much bass, but it is more tighter. The Bifrost has an ability to track the individual notes and instruments that just gets lost in the mix with the CA. Tonality and vocals, wood instruments e.t.c all sound more real. The main feature is the lack of glare and digitisis. Having heard an earlier Dacmagic in dealer demo, and now this new CA player, they have a distinctive sonic signature which had good detail but is processed and fatiguing over time. The Bifrost does not have this, totally relaxation when playing.

 I have had the NFB-2, which was warm and analog, but did it at the expense of detail and added darkness to the sound. The Bifrost is not like that, it has more detail than the Cambridge but with the natural type sound. Schiit's theory about not upsampling pays dividends. I think the Bifrost is as good as the Sabre based Calyx DAC, with an even more natural feel. But the Calyx was heard months ago and cables have been upgraded a lot since then, not really a fair comparison until I can get it in again.
  
  I am using what I now consider to be one of the best Coaxial cables I have had. A good digital cable will improve your sound over a cheap one to a high degree. (This is not the time nor place for that sort of discussion, PM me if you want the details.)
  
  So there it is. For under $500 this is a real contender and stone cold bargain. I want to hear the new Minimax and other higher priced products, but am very content with this DAC for now. Also, the build and casework of this Schiit product is better than many 3-5k priced high end components. Personally I would rather have a DIY component built on a butcher block if it sounded better, but having such good casework is a great bonus at this price.


----------



## bacobits

Now that is a good review with comparisons. Thank You!
   
  I had a Bifrost ordered, I canceled it, with all the delays. I may re purchase it.
  I intended to use it on speakers and with a transport being my Raysonic 128. BTW I run the Raysonic in NOS mode. Maybe I don't like up-sampling?
  I purchased an NFB 2 and it is as you describe exactly " was warm and analog, but did it at the expense of detail and added darkness to the sound."  so much so, my Raysonic 128 just surpassed it in all areas. The 128 is very good and does do "real" most excellent.
  So we'll see how the Bifrost compares to the higher priced spread as more of the reviews will be coming out.
  Do we have to spend $1k or more? Not so sure about that.
   
  D


----------



## dyl1dyl

Quote: 





agisthos said:


> BIFROST impressions with speakers, not headphones, and via coaxial....
> 
> Guys I can only fairly compare against a CA751 BD player. This has what is essentially a DacMagic built in, same wolfsen dac chips for each channel, same Anagram Q5 upsampling technology, but without the benefit of a seperate dedicated enclosure.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Great review. Haha, maybe dCS should start getting worried about the upcoming Schiit Statement DAC. If Schiit's $350 DAC can match a $2000 DAC, their statement $1000+ DAC may just be good enough to take on the $10000+ heavyweights.


----------



## agisthos

I would not say it matches the $2000 DAC, as the amp and cabling was very different. It may well be getting the Calyx back in now will show what it really can do. It is possible I may have a different opinion of the NFB-2 as well, that is why I am wary of any direct comparison except against the Cambridge Audio 751.
   
  Regardless I am getting some very good music now, getting lost in the music. With the CA751 I did not enjoy it half as much.


----------



## agisthos

Quote:


bacobits said:


> I purchased an NFB 2 and it is as you describe exactly " was warm and analog, but did it at the expense of detail and added darkness to the sound."  so much so, my Raysonic 128 just surpassed it in all areas. The 128 is very good and does do "real" most excellent.


 

 It is always nice confirmation when someone 'hears' the same type of thing, considering the subjective nature of this hobby. The Raysonic is well regarded and visually looks fantastic.


----------



## ninjikiran

Well I would say things such as darkness are very easy to discern between dacs.  In fact I would go as far as to say that you will almost immediately tell if a dac is dark or bright before you analyze other aspects of it with time.
   
  Maybe its time to sell the NFB-2 though and give the BiFrost a chance,  I am stupid enough to jump onto something quick but its rare for me to be truly let down.


----------



## Yikes

From some of the posts here it appears that some are mistaken; the Bifrost does NOT upsample, It decodes what it is fed in its native sample rate.
   
  Direct quote from the Schiit website:
   
  "Bifrost dispenses with the sample rate converter and uses a sophisticated master clock management system to deliver bit-perfect data to the DAC, preserving all the original music samples--whether it's 16/44.1 or 24/192"


----------



## PbassForever

I've been following this thread for a while now and it's great to see the initial impressions start to take shape.
   
  I used an Arcam CD73 for many years and then revived my vinyl collection about 1 1/2 years ago to do needle drops at 24/96 using an Apogee Duet.  I then purchased a DacMagic for playback side to go with my Arcam A85 amp and Epos M5 speakers.  I like the DacMagic but always felt that the frequency extremes while being  well extended were a bit exaggerated in a "smiley face EQ kind of way...... not extreme but leaning that way.  I've played bass for about 40 years and felt the bass end in particular was slightly on the Wolly side.  I recently bought a Squeezebox Touch and much preferred the bass end of the SBT over the DacMagic.  Bass and precussion were much tighter with the Touch analogue output.  Now there was bass and a bass drum.
   
  I sold the DacMagic and just picked up a Grant Fidelity DAC-09 which I am now liking a lot.  It was used and at a price I could not pass up.  I like the DAC direct output.... no tube.
   
  All this to say that I can relate to the bass of the Bifrost possibly sounding a little leaner than the DacMagic but having better control..... that would make it more accurate.
   
  I'm watching the flood of new DACs with interest although I am currently satisfied and can wait until the air clears a bit.  There are great new offerings from Grand Fidelity (DAC-11), Music Fidelity (V-DAC II), Peachtree (DACiT), AudioLab (M-DAC) and many more.  It looks like the Bifrost is definitely a leading contender.


----------



## judmarc

Quote:


yikes said:


> From some of the posts here it appears that some are mistaken; the Bifrost does NOT upsample, It decodes what it is fed in its native sample rate.
> 
> Direct quote from the Schiit website:
> 
> "Bifrost dispenses with the sample rate converter and uses a sophisticated master clock management system to deliver bit-perfect data to the DAC, preserving all the original music samples--whether it's 16/44.1 or 24/192"


   
  Jason's spoken to this earlier in the thread.  First let me define two terms as I will use them (not everyone uses them the same way, so I want to try to minimize confusion).  I'll use "upsampling" to mean deliberately taking signals sampled at lower rates and mathematically converting them to a "sample rate" of, e.g., 384kHz in order to achieve what the designer thinks is a better sound.  I'll use "oversampling" to mean what almost all DACs, including the Bifrost, have done for a couple of decades: Mathematicaly 'multiply' the sample rate by a whole number after it has already undergone processing by the DAC, doing this as close to the filtering stage as possible, to avoid bad sonic effects that would take place with 'brickwall' filtering of lower sample rate data. 
   
  In "upsampling," all sample rates might be converted to, e.g., 384 kHz as soon as they hit the DAC.  This is what DACs like the DacMagic do.
   
  In "oversampling," 44.1kHz data might be converted to 352.8kHz, and 48kHz data to 384kHz (8x oversampling); 88.2 and 96kHz also to 352.8 and 384 (4x oversampling); and 176.4 and 192kHz also to 352.8 and 384 (2x oversampling) as it is sent to the filtering stage, after the signal has undergone some processing  by the DAC.
   
  The latter of these two definitions ("oversampling") is what the Bifrost does, from Jason's description earlier in the thread.  I'm only aware of one DAC currently available that does not do one of these types of sample rate conversion for digital formats other than DSD (the 'native' SACD format), and that DAC gets around the 'brickwall' filter problem by using software to do sample rate conversion before the signal arrives at the DAC.  I think it goes for a bit more than 3300 euro plus VAT and shipping.  I've never heard it and don't think I'm likely to, since it's a relatively small manufacturer.


----------



## eclein

Thanks all for the thoughts on these DAC's. I have one on the way also and its going to replace the DAC feature of my Grant Fidelity DAC-09 but the 09's pre-amp side, buffer side will still be used...these Grant units were tremendously good $200 option for new guys like me....the Bifrost is a great deal also it looks like. As far as numbers go, very few, maybe 1-2 negative reports none of which revolve around missing something major in overall sound quality. If Microsoft has any part in anything there will be failures-the way it is.
   Go Schiit!!!!!!


----------



## agisthos

Thanks judmarc, I finally understand the difference between them now. This DAC you mention that does not do either, I presume is the TotalDAC which decodes a DSD stream using ladder resistors or something. Since Schiit claim their statement DAC will not be using any DAC chip perhaps that is the approach they are taking as well.


----------



## ecohifi

Quote: 





agisthos said:


> BIFROST impressions with speakers, not headphones, and via coaxial....
> 
> Guys I can only fairly compare against a CA751 BD player. This has what is essentially a DacMagic built in, same wolfsen dac chips for each channel, same Anagram Q5 upsampling technology, but without the benefit of a seperate dedicated enclosure.
> 
> ...


 
  Excellent write up Agishos,  I hope you get the opportunity to compare to either a mini max or Calyx DAC, then we'll have a good feel of how each 32 bit product performs.  I was looking at the Audio gd nfb 10se as this has volume control at I/V but I'll give it a miss with your comments as I am after resolution and micro details.
   
  In reference to your speakers, anything with a ribbon tweeter is going to give you detail,speed, transients and transparency.  I have 6ft ribbons and 2  11 inch Eton drivers and I use a 1st order crossover and no resistors.  I had 180uf MKP custom made for the ribbons.  Only down side is that the amp must drive 1.8 ohms, so I use a 250W mosfet that I have built.
  Cant build a DAC, cause I cant solder this small!!!


----------



## leesure

Lookee what FedEx delivered a whole day early......
   
   



   
  Listening now...initial impressions are quite positive.  I won't mistake my LCD-2's for HD-800's in terms of soundstaging, but it's definitely wider with the Bifrost.  More to follow once it's burned in and I listen a bit.
   

 Edit: to be clear, I've had the Lyr for quite some time...2nd run, before the relay was added.  Just the Bifrost is new.


----------



## wushuliu

Quote: 





bacobits said:


> Now that is a good review with comparisons. Thank You!
> 
> I had a Bifrost ordered, I canceled it, with all the delays. I may re purchase it.
> I intended to use it on speakers and with a transport being my Raysonic 128. BTW I run the Raysonic in NOS mode. Maybe I don't like up-sampling?
> ...


 

 I'd wager that the reason the NFB2 sounds dark is that Kingwa is not fond of the upper frequency tizziness that plagues sigma-delta dacs (especially as the pcm1704 and ESS chips were problematic for him supply/design wise). I'm very curious if the Bifrost AKM chip (4399?) manages to avoid this sound signature. I have a Dacport LX with the AKM 4396 multibit and it sounds very similar to pcm1704/AD1865 = natural and no grating top end.


----------



## Jason Stoddard

One of the reasons we like the AKM4399 (and 4396) is that they use switched-capacitor filters to provide out of band noise performance that is more similar to a multibit DAC. As far as we know, they're unique in this regard. They're still delta-sigma, but they're a rather nice implementation of delta-sigma.
   
  It's also a little ironic. One of the senior projects I did way back when I was getting my EE degree was a switched-capacitor, frequency-sensing noise gate for analog noise reduction. This was before the days that FFT and DSP became inexpensive enough to use broadly. It's neat to see that switched capacitor filters still have practical applications. Oh, the days of Z-domain analysis!
   
  Quote: 





wushuliu said:


> I'd wager that the reason the NFB2 sounds dark is that Kingwa is not fond of the upper frequency tizziness that plagues sigma-delta dacs (especially as the pcm1704 and ESS chips were problematic for him supply/design wise). I'm very curious if the Bifrost AKM chip (4399?) manages to avoid this sound signature. I have a Dacport LX with the AKM 4396 multibit and it sounds very similar to pcm1704/AD1865 = natural and no grating top end.


----------



## ninjikiran

What are those sexy feet on your units there?  If I may ask.  I have to use some with my Lyr but yours are far more stylish even if possibly more pricey.
  
  Quote: 





leesure said:


> Lookee what FedEx delivered a whole day early......
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## sling5s

Looks nice stacked, especially next to the iMac...it all matches.


----------



## leesure

I have an Audio-GD NFB-12 DAC and Bottlehead SEX amp (with upgraded transformers, resistors and caps) wired to drive Orthos off the speaker taps.  That's about $750 plus build labour + upgrades.  That's gotta be AT LEAST a $900 comparable setup to the $900 Lyr/Bifrost.  I'm going to do an extensive comparison in the coming days...with the RWA Isabellina in there as a higher priced 'reference'. 
   
  I'll use Senn 590's, HE-500's and LCD-2', because, well.......that's all I have.


----------



## leesure

BTW...I got not power cable in the box...is that normal? Got one with the Lyr...none with the Bifrost.


----------



## Jason Stoddard

Quote: 





leesure said:


> BTW...I got not power cable in the box...is that normal? Got one with the Lyr...none with the Bifrost.


 

 You should have gotten a power cord, but no other cables. We'll send you one!


----------



## Redwall

Hi, 
  Does anyone know where to download the windows 7 driver for this product?  The website says that it will be downloadable from the site but I can't find it anywhere
   
   
  Nevermind I read the manual


----------



## ecohifi

Quote: 





wushuliu said:


> I'd wager that the reason the NFB2 sounds dark is that Kingwa is not fond of the upper frequency tizziness that plagues sigma-delta dacs (especially as the pcm1704 and ESS chips were problematic for him supply/design wise). I'm very curious if the Bifrost AKM chip (4399?) manages to avoid this sound signature. I have a Dacport LX with the AKM 4396 multibit and it sounds very similar to pcm1704/AD1865 = natural and no grating top end.


 


 The ESS shouldn't be a supply issue, Kingwa's range of Sabre isn't as popular compared to the WM chips.  His Sabre range was up against the EE mini max that is a mere $800US at the time, not to mention the WFSs at $1495 with far better PSU filtering and less weigh and no wait time, & then theres the Buffolos from TPA, These are off the shelf items apart from TPA and Audio gd had all sorts of supply issues that are well documented in other threads. 
   
  Wushuliu,
  you done a comparision with the PCM 1704 to a Sabre implemtation?


----------



## Traddad

You convinced me.  #546.


----------



## TS0711

[size=medium]This Schiit is killing me… So my USB Bitfrost arrived today, but unfortunately I’m 75 miles away and won’t be home before Friday.  I bought to use in a second system as a direct replacement for a Pacific Valve’s Fathom.  The Fathom ($299 list, similar to Valab) uses I2S for the USB transmission and has been doing a great job.  At times the Fathom sounds scary real, being feed from a Mac Mini into a VTL IT-85 intergraded tube amp, which drives Dynaudio Special 25 speakers.    (I bought the Bitfrost for kicks and giggles, but mostly I like their reputation and attitude.)  Jason you guy's rock!!![/size]
   
  [size=medium]Anyway, at this rate I’ll set it up on Saturday and let it run in until I return from work the following Thursday.  That's a bit over 100 hours of break in.  I can't wait; and it seems like it’s a lifetime away (talk about anticipation.)[/size]
   
  [size=medium]Depending upon how the Bitfrost does in the bedroom, I may demo it in the living room rig where it will compete with my Levinson 360s (non USB, being driven by a Mac Mini with the M2tech Evo in the middle).[/size]
   
  [size=medium]Look for more in a week or so.[/size]
  [size=medium]Tony[/size]


----------



## Maxvla

Since I got my UERM I'm noticing low level noise over my coaxial spdif from my on board audio. This happens in the same way for my Dacmagic so its not an issue with the Bifrost. Any suggestions on a cure? Get a different sound card or get the usb module for the Bifrost or something else?

I never noticed this before because my headphones previously weren't sensitive enough to pick it up.


----------



## pseudohippy

Quote: 





ts0711 said:


> [size=medium]This Schiit is killing me… So my USB Bitfrost arrived today, but unfortunately I’m 75 miles away and won’t be home before Friday.  I bought to use in a second system as a direct replacement for a Pacific Valve’s Fathom.  The Fathom ($299 list, similar to Valab) uses I2S for the USB transmission and has been doing a great job.  At times the Fathom sounds scary real, being feed from a Mac Mini into a VTL IT-85 intergraded tube amp, which drives Dynaudio Special 25 speakers.    (I bought the Bitfrost for kicks and giggles, but mostly I like their reputation and attitude.)  Jason you guy's rock!!![/size]
> 
> [size=medium]Anyway, at this rate I’ll set it up on Saturday and let it run in until I return from work the following Thursday.  That's a bit over 100 hours of break in.  I can't wait; and it seems like it’s a lifetime away (talk about anticipation.)[/size]
> 
> ...


 

 Look forward to hearing what you think about it. Btw, what was your order number, Im just out here in the peanut gallery dying to get my shipping notice.


----------



## blankdisc

My Bifrost is finally being shipped out today. Huge thanks to Rina, Jason and Michael. I know that my order is a little bit more complicated than others. 
   
  anyway, i know that a lot of ppl are interested in the comparison between NFB-3 and Bifrost. i will def report back. 
   
  Now i can see my HE-6 and EF6 (the new Hifiman amp) smiling... ^_^


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





maxvla said:


> Since I got my UERM I'm noticing low level noise over my coaxial spdif from my on board audio. This happens in the same way for my Dacmagic so its not an issue with the Bifrost. Any suggestions on a cure? Get a different sound card or get the usb module for the Bifrost or something else?
> I never noticed this before because my headphones previously weren't sensitive enough to pick it up.


 

 Try optical then perhaps USB if that doesn't work for you.  One reason I like optical for my 'portable' rig.


----------



## wushuliu

Quote: 





ecohifi said:


> The ESS shouldn't be a supply issue, Kingwa's range of Sabre isn't as popular compared to the WM chips.  His Sabre range was up against the EE mini max that is a mere $800US at the time, not to mention the WFSs at $1495 with far better PSU filtering and less weigh and no wait time, & then theres the Buffolos from TPA, These are off the shelf items apart from TPA and Audio gd had all sorts of supply issues that are well documented in other threads.
> 
> Wushuliu,
> you done a comparision with the PCM 1704 to a Sabre implemtation?


 

 I was referring to the usb (?) design issue for Kingwa's sabre dacs. The only Sabre I've heard was an Oppo at a friend's place but I did not listen critically. I did note a sound signature tilted towards bright but not unpleasantly so.


----------



## leesure

Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> You should have gotten a power cord, but no other cables. We'll send you one!


 


  Thanks Jason!


----------



## TS0711

@ Pseudohippy
   
  I was order number 217 or something like that.  I got the paypal notice on Sunday and the unit was at my home in NY on Wednesday.  Not bad Schiit (having lived in Germany for 2 years I love saying that, even thought they used the american spelling...)
   
  tony


----------



## Maxvla

anaxilus said:


> Try optical then perhaps USB if that doesn't work for you.  One reason I like optical for my 'portable' rig.




I'll have to order an optical cable. Can't seem to find the one I had years ago.


----------



## pseudohippy

Quote: 





ts0711 said:


> @ Pseudohippy
> 
> I was order number 217 or something like that.  I got the paypal notice on Sunday and the unit was at my home in NY on Wednesday.  Not bad Schiit (having lived in Germany for 2 years I love saying that, even thought they used the american spelling...)
> 
> tony


 
  Thanks for taking the time to post that Tony. Im a patient guy but all this is getting me overly excited. That gives me a good idea that it should be very soon for me. Im only up the coast from them so hopefully it will arrive within two or three days. Good to hear most people are enjoying theirs.


----------



## internethandle

Got my Bifrost yesterday (w/ USB, Order #215)!
   
  Had a bit of a hiccup that turned out to not be the Bifrost's issue but my PC's own. At first I noticed something odd in that under Playback Devices the CMedia driver was only letting me choose in the 16-bit range of sample rate output, even though this is a 24/192 USB implementation. Just thought it was a weird Windows issue, though. Then after doing some brief 2 hour or so burn-in with Pink Noise, I did some listening. Everything sounded great until I began getting a strange wave "wa-wa-wa-wa" like distortion about halfway through the second song in a playlist. This would continue until I double-clicked a song again and re-started playback. Contacted Jason who thought it might be a driver issue, so he let me know they had updated the USB drivers at schiit.com/drivers and I might want to try them to rule out a driver issue. No dice. Tried other things - swapped out USB cables, DirectSound instead of WASAPI output in Foobar, tried other players beside Foobar, etc., and still had the issue. Just when I thought I might have a faulty USB card on my Bifrost, I remembered an old addage of sorts thrown around Computer Audio Asylum and some other forums - "not all USB ports are created equal." Sure enough, when I plugged my USB cable into another port, problem solved, no distortion, playback clean as a whistle! Really weird, never had problems with that port before, all other ports were disabled in Device Manager, the port in question had its own IRQ, etc., but apparently it either didn't like Bifrost or was fried. Anyway, just thought I'd throw that out there if anyone runs into similar problems.
   
  Another piece of advice for Windows users of (I'm Win 7) the Bifrost with USB, the CMedia drivers were a bit inflexible for Jason and co. and as such have a lot of unnecessary clutter. Namely, if you look under your system tray -> volume icon -> right click -> Playback Devices tab, you'll see "USB 2.0 High Speed True HD Audio" for "Speakers" (this is the one you want!) but also "Digital Output", which is basically as if the USB board also had SPDIF/digital out, which it obviously doesn't. You can simply right click disable this, it won't do any harm, and will keep things less complicated (in Foobar, for instance, if you don't disable it you'll get an option to output sound in Foobar settings to "USB 2.0 High Speed True HD Audio Digital Out" as well as "Speakers" - Digital Out will produce no sound). If you go under the "Recording" tab in Playback Devices you'll also see a bunch of other unworking/not applicable stuff, e.g. "USB 2.0 High Speed True HD Audio Microphone", "Line In", "SPDIF In" etc. - disabling these also won't effect anything negatively, as far as I can tell, since, again, only "Speakers" is what you need here. Lastly, for some reason, after installing the driver for USB in Windows, at least in Win 7, "USB 2.0 High Speed True HD Audio" starts out only at 67% volume - I checked with Jason and he recommends you change this to 100% volume (to do so, system tray -> volume icon -> right-click -> playback devices -> right-click "USB 2.0 High Speed True HD Audio Speakers" -> levels tab -> slide volume bar to 100%).
   
  In terms of sound - just fantastic. I'm coming from a Keces DA-151 Mk. 1 USB DAC, which was quite fantastic for its price range two or three years ago, but is isochronous, USB 1.0, limited to 16/44.1 etc., despite some good bells and whistles like a respectable chip (Burr-Brown PCM2702) and a toroidal transformer. Comparitively so far, lower noise floor, better soundstage and separation of instruments, and sensitivity to source material (MP3's versus FLAC, e.g.) - running to a Little Dot MKIII with Voshkod driver tubes and stock power tubes - also really brings out the warmth of the Little Dot's signature better than my last amp, which I guess is to say the Bifrost is fairly "neutral" and, apparently, my last DAC colored the sound more. Just some initial impressions.


----------



## estreeter

Quote: 





dyl1dyl said:


> Great review. Haha, maybe dCS should start getting worried about the upcoming Schiit Statement DAC. If Schiit's $350 DAC can match a $2000 DAC, their statement $1000+ DAC may just be good enough to take on the $10000+ heavyweights.


 

 Please, *can we *not* do this*. It may have been tongue in cheek, but there are fora out there where various keyboard warriors take immense pleasure in holding up Head-Fi hype to the spotlight - lets not give them any more ammunition than they already have. I've seen hot rods that can cover a 1/4 mile faster than a stock Ferrari, but put 90% of people behind the wheel of both cars and I know which one they will choose.


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





maxvla said:


> I'll have to order an optical cable. Can't seem to find the one I had years ago.


 


  Go to a store and buy 5-10 cheap ones and try them all.  Keep the one you like, return the rest.  You might notice some deviations in how the fiber is terminated and polished.  I have yet to try a sysconcepts cable yet but it's on the list.  I need a custom 1 incher.  >.<
   
  Still have yet to hear glass but I know proper acrylic can be polished to be more transparent than regular glass so I'm not sure about that debate.  Perhaps transmission length is where glass pulls ahead.


----------



## Maxvla

Well I'll get one just to see if it's the fix or if I need to go the USB module route. On these UERMs this noise is really distracting on anything remotely soft. Been listening to mostly rock/pop/metal to avoid it.


----------



## sampson_smith

x2. Very well-put, estreeter. Thanks for this key point of advice.
  
  Quote: 





estreeter said:


> Please, *can we *not* do this*. It may have been tongue in cheek, but there are fora out there where various keyboard warriors take immense pleasure in holding up Head-Fi hype to the spotlight - lets not give them any more ammunition than they already have. I've seen hot rods that can cover a 1/4 mile faster than a stock Ferrari, but put 90% of people behind the wheel of both cars and I know which one they will choose.


----------



## ecohifi

Jason,
   
  what is the ETA in sending a batch to I enjoy Australia for distribution?


----------



## judmarc

Quote: 





agisthos said:


> Thanks judmarc, I finally understand the difference between them now. This DAC you mention that does not do either, I presume is the TotalDAC which decodes a DSD stream using ladder resistors or something. Since Schiit claim their statement DAC will not be using any DAC chip perhaps that is the approach they are taking as well.


 


 The DAC I was referring to, the only one I know of that doesn't do in-DAC oversampling on *non-DSD* material (though of course there may be others I'm unaware of), is the Phasure NOS1 24/768 async USB DAC.


----------



## judmarc

Quote: 





maxvla said:


> Well I'll get one just to see if it's the fix or if I need to go the USB module route. On these UERMs this noise is really distracting on anything remotely soft. Been listening to mostly rock/pop/metal to avoid it.


 

 Maybe it's ground hum.  Optical is a cool thing to try on its own, so I won't discourage you at all from going that route, but meanwhile go to Google University re ground hum and see whether you can find a way to stop it.


----------



## estreeter

Quote: 





ecohifi said:


> Jason,
> 
> what is the ETA in sending a batch to I enjoy Australia for distribution?


 

 I suspect that you needed a hyphen in there, Amigo !
   
  http://www.i-enjoy.com.au/


----------



## Jason Stoddard

Hey all,
   
  Sorry to say the distributor situation is pretty grim--we ship first to direct sale customers, and we are now in backorder for first run of Bifrost, as we still try to finish up shipping the preorders (should be finished early next week.) Current preorders are all covered.
   
  The second run starts hitting at the end of the month. We hope. I can't emphasize more that dates provided are *estimates*, or, in less fancy terms, *guesses.*
   
  All the best,
  Jason


----------



## ledzepplin

Nothing for me so far, Still waitting... My order is #389
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  I like to know is there any GOOD usb cable include?


----------



## internethandle

Quote: 





> Nothing for me so far, Still waitting... My order is #389
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
   
  There was no USB cable included with mine, contents of the package were:
   
  - Bifrost
  - Power Cable
  - Optional Stick-On Feet for the bottom of the Bifrost
   
  So unless Schiit changes their minds, you'll have to provide your own USB cable/RCA cables. The only company I know of that provides a "good" USB cable with its DAC is Nuforce, who have their own "audiophile grade" cable they provide, but otherwise that's not typically included.


----------



## pseudohippy

For those of you out there waiting I just got my invoice to pay mere minutes ago. Order number 313. Cant wait!


----------



## TS0711

@ pseudohippy

Congrats!!!! It wont be long now. Looks like you and I will be pluging them in around the same time. Can't wait.

Tony


----------



## redmonddad

While trying to diagnose my USB problems (which are currently suspected to be a problem with the Bifrost's USB card and not the Windows drivers), Jason did mention one caveat to watch out for with "audiophile" USB cables.  Some audiophile USB cables do not provide the standard power lines (Jason did not say which audiophile cables are like this).  The Bifrost senses power on the USB cables to enable the USB interface board, so therefore may not work with such cables.
   
  (Unfortunately that was not the source of my problem.)
  
  Quote: 





internethandle said:


> There was no USB cable included with mine, contents of the package were:
> 
> - Bifrost
> - Power Cable
> ...


----------



## Butler

Just reconfirmed my PayPal. Order number 404 (USB). Looks like I'll be seeing her soon.


----------



## mmayer167

I sold my Mav D1 today and the bifrost is here tomorrow, glad my lyr wont be lonely long 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  
   
  M


----------



## internethandle

Quote: 





redmonddad said:


> While trying to diagnose my USB problems (which are currently suspected to be a problem with the Bifrost's USB card and not the Windows drivers), Jason did mention one caveat to watch out for with "audiophile" USB cables.  Some audiophile USB cables do not provide the standard power lines (Jason did not say which audiophile cables are like this).  The Bifrost senses power on the USB cables to enable the USB interface board, so therefore may not work with such cables.
> 
> (Unfortunately that was not the source of my problem.)


 

 Hm, interesting. I'm guessing he's talking about this sort of cable from Acoustic Revive:
   

   
  There's kind of a trend going on with USB cables like theirs where they'll separate out the power line and data line in a cable and combine them at the B-bus end. I've also heard of DIY cable guys building ones with the power lines cut/"neutered," though. Otherwise unsure. I'm using a Furutech GT2 USB cable without issue right now with Bifrost - at least in the Furutech there's basically just lots of fancy metals (OCC copper etc.) and insulation materials, but the basic design is the same as any other USB cable. Audiophile USB cables always seem a little suspect to me, and I'm a believer in most other cables - in terms of SQ difference/improvement I've had more luck with USB "isolators" like the Olimex or Circuits@Home builds. The purpose of those, though, is galvanic isolation between the transport (PC/Mac) and DAC, but I think it's already been established by Jason that Bifrost's USB solution is galvanically isolated already. Besides, most of the existing isolators are designed for industrial use and, as far as I know, aren't asynchronous-friendly. 
   
  Anyway, clearly off-topic other than musing on what cables he might mean re: avoiding w/ the Bifrost.


----------



## Uberzone

You've promised to ship us asgard and bifrost within two weeks of time, however now it's been more than 20 days since our order was made. We believe this is not appropriate and should be resolved immediately. This is not the service we've expected from a company like yours. What's the point in pre-order with a promise of two weeks? I respect you and your work, but you also understand the users, your apologies only make things worse. It is better to talk about let postural, but still real date of supply.


----------



## Maxvla

You've got a world of hurt incoming if you plan to stick around audio. 20 days is trivial compared to the years some wait for certain products.


----------



## Uberzone

So you think it's normal? It turns out if others are waiting for years, then we need? Then, if someone threw a train, you also have to do it? It makes no sense at all be equal, we have our own particular case, we're not talking about all the firms involved in audio. For example, I'm the 20 days without the music, even when I will send what I ordered, shipment will go to me another 3 weeks plus to the package may fall under the Christmas boom in the post, it would be a terrible failure. By the way I was told to wait two weeks, and not a year, otherwise I would not write here. This whole subject is too vanilla, I want to hear what makes the developer to solve the problem.


----------



## wushuliu

Quote: 





uberzone said:


> You've promised to ship us asgard and bifrost within two weeks of time, however now it's been more than 20 days since our order was made. We believe this is not appropriate and should be resolved immediately. This is not the service we've expected from a company like yours. What's the point in pre-order with a promise of two weeks? I respect you and your work, but you also understand the users, your apologies only make things worse. It is better to talk about let postural, but still real date of supply.


 
   
   
  This is the price you pay for being an 'early adopter' instead of waiting until all the hype passes, initial shipments have gone out, and potential bugs/issues resolved. This happens ALL the time, so deal!


----------



## Kremer930

Uberzone- Some people just don't deserve to have good quality audio. I can't see how you make it through life if you get this wound up over a short delay. By the sounds of your comments you weren't even a pre-order customer in the strict sense. 
   
  Jason has advised the cause of the delays all the way through the Bifrosts release. Not everything in life can be controlled.


----------



## Uberzone

You have a unique approach to what is happening, I would say is wrong, but it is your right. I am not a competitor and not an enemy Jason, I'm just someone who loves music. No need to write nonsense, since the causes of my anxiety, I outlined above. Did not want to get a crazy day at the post office. Have I not had the right to express their opinions, I'm not someone not be offended.


----------



## Kremer930

I agree that you have the right to expect timely delivery of a product but isnt Jason also entitled to a direct and confidential right of response first?


----------



## judmarc

_I like to know is there any GOOD usb cable include?_
   
  As internethandle says, no USB cable included at all.  I'll pass along a recommendation for a good, and at least IMO for the audiophile market, low cost USB cable: the Audioquest Forest, about $30 US in the .75m (2.5 ft) length.
   
  And oh yes, my Bifrost was delivered yesterday!  Burning in, haven't had the chance to really give it a good listen yet in all the respects I want to.  It did seem to me on the basis of *very* brief listening in non-ideal conditions (low volume b/c wife was sleeping, various enviromental noises, sleeping dog taking my listening position on sofa) that I preferred the USB to the optical input from my MacBook Pro (my USB cable is $110, optical cable is about 1/3 or less the price of the USB), and that I preferred a direct connection between the MBP and Bifrost rather than running USB to the Musical Fidelity V-Link, then coax into the Bifrost.


----------



## agisthos

Here is a nice comparison of 3 levels of Audioquest USB cables.
   
http://www.goodsound.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=278:audioquest-carbon-cinnamon-and-forest-usb-cables&catid=56:equipment-reviews&Itemid=37

 The reviewer, Doug Blackburn, is actually a ISF calibration tech in the AV world. These guys are firmly in the engineering and measurement box, and cables do not make any difference e.t.c But with an open mind he has come around to reporting what his ears hear, despite USB skepticism.


----------



## HyperM3

Quote: 





argo duck said:


> Absolutely agree, but nope purrin is not who I meant. I just found it - I did say IIRC: "...The only downside I think I may have perceived is that my bass doesnt seem to hit as low as before. The mid-bass seems tighter but the low slams dont seem to vibrate my couch as they did previously..." (HyperM3, post 1282, p.86)
> 
> 
> 
> Edits: added "purrin is not who I meant" and... my point simply was no _one_ impression is enough to generalize from. I guess HyperM3 + purrin makes two. Still no statistical power.


 


  After about a week of burning in and listening Id like to update my review a little bit.
   
  I tried putting on some music that I normally listen to which gives my speakers a good run for their money which is dubstep. You might not like it and I dont expect everyone to, but I like it because it just throws sounds "everywhere". It also tests bass extension for me on my speakers. I can say that the bass is going lower but its DEFINITELY more controlled than before. Where it used to be slightly muddy and deep, now its barely audible but clean. The bass has become "snappy" and more musical from what I can tell.
   
  In other ranges music just shines. The depth of soundstage is amazing. I really find myself looking through the music now when listening and seeing instruments being played behind my wall. Its really neat when demo'ing to friends when they experience that.
   
  Mid-range and highs are just like the bass, snappy. I dont hear any extra notes being played and nothing sounds rolled off. Controlled is a word Id like to use. This is different to me though from what Ive been used to. I listen to music I have known for a long time that would go to and play as reference material. Im hearing them very clearly but different now. Theres more separation of notes and instruments. I hear more silence before when there aught to be. Am I making sense?
   
  That was all when playing my itunes(recorded in lossless) through my logitech touch. I can hear a small difference when listening through my TV as well. Im using the same speakers for TV stereo and one of the things Ive noticed is vocal separation is cleaner. As with the instruments from the music, voice are separated better and imaged clearer. Another thing is off-axis listening on the couch(laying down) has no bearing on soundstage either. Everything is still centralized and if I closed my eyes I wouldnt know there were speakers in the room.
   
  I dont know if ALL this could be contributed to the DAC as I had a good foundation of products to start with. But the addition of the bifrost continued my excursion into increasing the quality of sound I was looking for.


----------



## leesure

Quote: 





kremer930 said:


> Uberzone- Some people just don't deserve to have good quality audio. I can't see how you make it through life if you get this wound up over a short delay. By the sounds of your comments you weren't even a pre-order customer in the strict sense.
> 
> Jason has advised the cause of the delays all the way through the Bifrosts release. Not everything in life can be controlled.


 


  Heh?  Just because someone expects to have a company deliver on its time promises he _doesn't deserve to have good audio_? What are you talking about?  Plus, this person is asking not only about the Bifrost, a new product that has well documented reasons for missing it's shipping dates by as much as 2 months, but also about Asgard, an established product that does not have developmental issues that can understandably make deadlines slip.
   
  While I agree that 6 extra days is not exactly a tragedy in the long term, I think we are all too used to companies in this industry over-promising on delivery dates. 
   
  I understand where Jason's issues were rooted and don't envy him the balancing act of building hype and pre-orders vs building units and meeting self-imposed deadlines.  It's very hard.  It inevitably leads to some disappointments...but those who are disappointed have every right to express it without being told that don't deserve good quality audio.


----------



## judmarc

Quote:


agisthos said:


> Here is a nice comparison of 3 levels of Audioquest USB cables.
> 
> http://www.goodsound.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=278:audioquest-carbon-cinnamon-and-forest-usb-cables&catid=56:equipment-reviews&Itemid=37
> 
> The reviewer, Doug Blackburn, is actually a ISF calibration tech in the AV world. These guys are firmly in the engineering and measurement box, and cables do not make any difference e.t.c But with an open mind he has come around to reporting what his ears hear, despite USB skepticism.


 

 Thanks for the cite.  I prefer the Carbon to the Forest myself - haven't heard the Cinnamon.  But I also preferred the Forest to $100 cables from two other manufacturers, so my preferences didn't track cost.
   
  For anyone who feels cables don't make a difference, cool.  These are just my own impressions.


----------



## Jason Stoddard

Uberzone, why don't you contact me and let me know what your order is? I can let you know if it's going to go out soon, or if it has already gone out. We'd also be happy to cancel it. Unfortunately, wecan't map your username to an order.
   
  Bottom line, everyone who has preordered is covered, it will just take us a few more days to finish them up. 
   
  A few other comments:
   
  1. When you place your order with us, there is *always* a note on every product page--the first line of the product description--that says if the product is in backorder, or if it's in preorder, and the estimated time that it will ship. Note: estimate = guess.
   
  2. Why is an estimate a guess? Because we can't plan perfectly for demand, and we do not have complete control over the boardhouse that builds our products. We were caught off guard by a surge in orders for all products--nothing we could plan for by looking at the sales rate for the past few months. Also, the boardhouse has been slower than normal following their ISO certification.
   
  3. That said, we're ramping up to try to eliminate these backorder situations in the future. That's our singular focus right now. No new products are being announced until this is fixed, period. That will probably push any new product announcements to the end of the year, or slightly past that, sorry. 
   
  4. When you order, we don't charge your card, nor do we take a deposit, (PayPal will authorize the purchase, which places a hold on the funds for three days, then it is released.) So it's not like the money has come out of your account. Yes, I know, cold comfort when waiting for gear. But nobody is happy about the backorder situation, least of all us. 
   
  All the best,
  Jason


----------



## Kremer930

In response to your What.  I would personally refund his order rather than put up with his whinging.  That is just me.  He needs to lighten up and get a life.  Judge me as you will.
   
  Jason has controlled and communicated his processes as well as I have seen any company achieve.  To have someone complain and daydream about the potential for being caught up in the Christmas postage rush makes me wonder how he manages to make it through an ordinary day.
   
   
   

  
  Quote: 





leesure said:


> Heh?  Just because someone expects to have a company deliver on its time promises he _doesn't deserve to have good audio_? What are you talking about?  Plus, this person is asking not only about the Bifrost, a new product that has well documented reasons for missing it's shipping dates by as much as 2 months, but also about Asgard, an established product that does not have developmental issues that can understandably make deadlines slip.
> 
> While I agree that 6 extra days is not exactly a tragedy in the long term, I think we are all too used to companies in this industry over-promising on delivery dates.
> 
> I understand where Jason's issues were rooted and don't envy him the balancing act of building hype and pre-orders vs building units and meeting self-imposed deadlines.  It's very hard.  It inevitably leads to some disappointments...but those who are disappointed have every right to express it without being told that don't deserve good quality audio.


----------



## Traddad

Quote: 





uberzone said:


> You've promised to ship us asgard and bifrost within two weeks of time, however now it's been more than 20 days since our order was made. We believe this is not appropriate and should be resolved immediately. This is not the service we've expected from a company like yours. What's the point in pre-order with a promise of two weeks? I respect you and your work, but you also understand the users, your apologies only make things worse. It is better to talk about let postural, but still real date of supply.


 

 Wow....just wow.   A Schiit is a very small, "boutique" company that hit it big in the best way possible;  by designing and building a product that combines USA manufacture, cutting edge technology, stellar build quality and eye pleasing design.     This is not a sweat shop DAC (although I wonder if the young woman behind the soldering iron might not argue the point, with all the orders...) and it depends on quality components from other manufacturers.   Schiit is NOT WalMart.  Decidedly so...and that's a GOOD thing.
  If you cannot defer gratification, this type of semi-custom gear is probably not for you.  You're probably going to have issues elsewhere, too.
  I'm # 546 and it said two weeks when I placed my order, too.  I would rather that Schiit not burn the midnight oil, hire less skilled workers, badger their suppliers or rush around like a chicken with their head cut off to speed up my order.
  But that's just me.


----------



## leesure

Quote: 





kremer930 said:


> He needs to lighten up and get a life.


 


  Look in the mirror, my friend.
   
  Jason has been exceptionally forthcoming in his communications...100% agreed.  That doesn't change the disappointment this person feels...nor his right to express that disappointment.  It's clear from his 'accent' that his order is leaving the US...which increases the delay until he receives it. 
   
  I do agree that this exchange would have been better had it just been handled privately between he and Jason thru the Schiit site, but I won't vilify him for simply expressing frustration.


----------



## Uberzone

Thanks Jason, I've heard all the answers, I have nothing more is needed.


----------



## Kremer930

I laugh.  Really Leesure....are you supporting these kinds of comments...misleadingly placed into a post to look like they were written by me?  Let us just agree to disagree.
   
  Quoted from Uberzone.
  You are totally inadequate, useless to talk to you, you have settled that an attorney in the company of Jason? I'm not interested in your opinion, you are not respected. No need to climb into other people's affairs, and that's enough to behave himself as a woman, you rend the air in vain. The problem of congestion-mail there, I came across it twice, as opposed to you the things that I had ordered me to go would be 3 weeks since I am overseas from the United States. Standard 3 weeks turn into this period of eighteen months, and a chance to lose the parcel at customs increases.


----------



## caracara08

gotta love headfi.


----------



## mmayer167

ahh my unit got here and there is no usb unit installed!!!? talk about anti-climactic  I already contacted schiit but watch out if your still waiting for usb unit. My order definitely says i ordered the usb unit haha. Sorry Jason for more stress 
   
  M


----------



## pseudohippy

Quote: 





mmayer167 said:


> ahh my unit got here and there is no usb unit installed!!!? talk about anti-climactic  I already contacted schiit but watch out if your still waiting for usb unit. My order definitely says i ordered the usb unit haha. Sorry Jason for more stress
> 
> M


 


  What an absolute bummer. Sorry bout that. Crossing my fingers for mine 
   
  Hopefully he can overnight you the board and you can install yourself?


----------



## eclein

I think I might be waiting awhile....I ordered immediately through a dealer friend way back in the beginning of pre-orders. Am I bummed??? Will I be waiting now because I ordered through a dealer??
   Thanks guys....
   Ed


----------



## internethandle

eclein I think you'll be better off e-mailing Jason to try and track down your order. You probably don't have an order number if you went through a dealer but assumingly he or someone at Schiit will know.
   
  All I can say about the last few pages is Google Translate still needs some work apparently, no offense intended to anyone.


----------



## leesure

Quote: 





kremer930 said:


> I laugh.  Really Leesure....are you supporting these kinds of comments...misleadingly placed into a post to look like they were written by me?  Let us just agree to disagree.


 


  I doubt he intended to mislead anyone, but rather simply typed his reply in the quote area.  It's not hard to do.
   
  Anyway, the only thing I'm supporting is someone's right to express dissatisfaction and frustration over delays without someone declaring that he doesn't _*deserve*_ quality audio.  Yes, buying a new product from a newer company, especially one of this size, is not like buying from Sony, and he will come to understand this over time should he choose to stay with this hobby, but that doesn't mean he's not allowed to be frustrated and allowed to express said frustration.
   
  Anyway, I'm way past this whole affair now...way too chilled listening to _Kinda Blue_ thru my Bifrost>Lyr>LCD-2 rig.


----------



## Argo Duck

I think we need more detail - and some comparisons too, considering your other gear 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  When you're ready.
   
  Thanks too to HyperM3 for the update!
   
  Quote: 





leesure said:


> <snip>...way too chilled listening to _Kinda Blue_ thru my Bifrost>Lyr>LCD-2 rig.


----------



## leesure

Quote: 





argo duck said:


> I think we need more detail - and some comparisons too, considering your other gear
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Soon...I wanna burn it in properly before real assesment, but the initial impressions are quite positive.


----------



## wushuliu

Quote: 





caracara08 said:


> gotta love headfi.


 


  heh. "rend the air in vain". awesome.


----------



## Uberzone

internethandle Good trolling, i dont know english as well, i am from Caucasus.


----------



## wushuliu

Quote: 





uberzone said:


> internethandle Good trolling, i dont know english as well, i am from Caucasus.


 


  Actually, I thought it was cool. I was not making fun of you. I understand there is a language barrier. Your english is fine. Apologies.


----------



## jerikl

The internet should be renamed to whinernet. I believe someone mentioned creating a thread for Bifrost impressions? That would be terrific if it hasn't already been done.
   
  If anybody has a reason to whine, I'm gonna vote for myself. Let's see if anyone can beat my little story of waiting.
   
  I pre-ordered early -- was probably one of the first to receive and open a Bifrost package, especially since I work from home and had time to try it out that day before most arrive home from work. BUT, mine didn't work. It powered on but no audio through optical. I contacted Jason and he said it was probably an early failure and I'd have to send it back to get a replacement. No biggie ... it's just a DAC, life goes on.
   
  Since I was leaving for vacation that night, I ran out of time between packing to get the Bifrost packed and dropped off at a shipping location. When we got back a few days later, my wife was scheduled for another day off, but I wasn't. While I was working, I asked her to drop off the package for me that day. She obliged because she's a wonderful woman who puts up with all of my craziness for some crazy reason (love).
   
  A week later I contact Jason asking if they'd received my package. Nope. Wait, what!? FedEx Ground should have been there in 3 days. So I call my wife.
   
  My wife dropped off the package for me the NEXT afternoon after a full work-day (argh, I would have just done it myself if I had of known she was going to do that). She dropped it off in the usual location -- the post office. Oh no! Remember when I said I shipped the package using FedEx Ground?
   
  The first mistake was mine. I used the FedEx website with a one-time credit-card payment, no account, assuming that they would email a copy of the receipt to my email address. They didn't, and I didn't print a receipt. Maybe I missed a checkbox or something. So with no tracking number, and the box lingering somewhere in the postal service system, I was just a little worried that I'd be out a few hundred dollars or out a lot of time attempting to recover the package or money.
   
  I called the post office. Apparently FedEx and UPS pick-up there everyday. I called FedEx trying to find any information related to the package. No luck. I called the post office again. Same reassurance. I did an online chat with FedEx and called them once again a few days later. Still no luck.
   
  Finally I have my wife go to the post office and talk to someone there. More information. They have a big bin all packages go into for sorting. Sometimes it takes up to a week or two for some of these packages to get to the correct carrier. But, they assured my wife that the package is there -- somewhere, and it'll get to where it's going eventually. I'm resting a little easier now -- my main concern at this point is just not losing out on a few hundred dollars from a few simple errors.
   
  A few days later I receive an email from Jason saying they received my package and the replacement will go out that night. Sweeeeeet!
   
  Quick timeline:

 July 3rd -- preordered the Bifrost.
 October 10th -- received notification that I need to remake my payment (through PayPal).
 October 13th -- received the Bifrost / determined it was defective / emailed Jason.
 October 18th -- wife dropped off the package at the post office.
 October 24th -- emailed Jason inquiring about the status of the replacement.
 November 1st -- received an email from Jason saying they received my package! YES!
 November 5th -- the future, will receive the replacement Bifrost.
   
  So anyway, it's just a DAC. There are more important things in life. That said, my replacement Bifrost should be here tomorrow, and I'm eager to spend a few hours with it enjoying some great music after a long run on the trails. I'm expecting tomorrow to be a wonderful day 
   
  And BTW, Schiit Audio has proven to be a terrific company and Jason was a pleasure to deal with through this ordeal. Yes, there are definitely a few negatives when dealing with a small company, but IMO, the positives FAR outweigh any negatives -- especially in the case of Schiit Audio. Jason, thanks to you and your team again for being awesome.


----------



## ledzepplin

Just confirmed mine from paypal #389. Can't wait!


----------



## Argo Duck

Wow jerikl - you certainly suffered some mishaps. Glad to hear its about to be resolved with some real listening time 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  And yep, Jason is a pleasure to deal with.


----------



## estreeter

DACs with the footprint of the BiFrost are just sooooo 2010. Get with the future, Schiit !   
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
http://www.headfonia.com/the-headstage-usb-dac-cable/
   
  This DAC is so* invisible* that one eagle-eyed observer commented that it was 'just an expensive cable' and Mike would still need a DAC to go with his 'digital cable'. Jesus wept. 
   
  (Inevitably, someone will comment on the price - I will then refer them to earlier posts in this thread telling us that we cant equate price with quality. Game, set and match, estreeter)


----------



## pseudohippy

Quote: 





estreeter said:


> DACs with the footprint of the BiFrost are just sooooo 2010. Get with the future, Schiit !
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Just curious, what is the point of this? This is true, you cant equate price with quality. That DAC cable has been around for ages. Robert has been selling and redesigning it over and over. The past version of his DAC cable was fantastic. This newer design is even nicer looking although I dont have one as I declined to include it with my 3G Arrow. But still, what is it doing here in this thread? Are you trying to make a point/get a reaction? Or just educating us on what most of us already know?


----------



## Argo Duck

Looking forward to it leesure 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  Quote: 





leesure said:


> Soon...I wanna burn it in properly before real assesment, but the initial impressions are quite positive.


----------



## Kremer930

Interesting but how would you put big shiny feet on it?  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   

  
  Quote: 





estreeter said:


> DACs with the footprint of the BiFrost are just sooooo 2010. Get with the future, Schiit !
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## estreeter

@pseudohippy, its called humour, hence the wink avatar. Apologies for robbing you of the 10 seconds it took to read that post - I gave up on this thread about a hundred pages back when, along with several others, I asked for impressions to be posted in a completely separate thread.


----------



## bcart180

USB order #489 is on the way!


----------



## pseudohippy

Quote: 





estreeter said:


> @pseudohippy, its called humour, hence the wink avatar. Apologies for robbing you of the 10 seconds it took to read that post - I gave up on this thread about a hundred pages back when, along with several others, I asked for impressions to be posted in a completely separate thread.


 


  I just missed the joke and found the whole thing to be off topic. Ive seen you make that request elsewhere also to make new threads. Why dont you try to become a mod. Personally I find it to be just fine. Sorry I missed your joke. I still dont quite get it though 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  Oh well, I guess this ones on me.


----------



## ninjikiran

ouch 489, I have #555


----------



## TS0711

So I wasn't home for more than 5 minutes and I had to open this puppy up. I love the packing it's so anti-Apple. Right out of the box it sounded horrible. Very grainy, however that could have been my tubes warming up. 7 hours later it's coming into its own. Too early for a review but listening to 1.fm reggae trade there is plenty of bass. I've got a feeling this dog can hunt. More in 48 hours...

Very happy so far, having tried USB and toslink.


----------



## fluffygdog95

The Schiit Bifrost is sounding magical with the Lyr and Beyerdynamic DT990. So much speed and dynamic capability!


----------



## Maxvla

Got a nice little shock going to Radio Shack for an optical cable tonight. Apparently the standard optical cables these days are $40. Went on Monoprice and picked up the 'premium' cable shipped for $7. We'll see if this fixes my noise problems.


----------



## TS0711

Feed Me, Feed Me...

The unit only has 9 hours run in, but I'm impressed. For fun I connected my old Cal Delta cd transport to the coaxial input. It's still rough around the edges, but oh my the potential. I just spun the Mighty Sam McMlain (give it up to love - xrcd) and a few cuts from The Village (music of Greenwich village) and you can tell that the better the grape the finer the wine. I've run Internet radio via glass toslink and a Mac mini via USB. They maybe easier to use and more forgiving but at this early stage the coaxial input sounds the best.


----------



## pseudohippy

Wow, Im jealous of you guys. Mine shipped out today and only has to travel up the coast and its not due to be here until the 9th. Oh well, so long you guys keep the good news coming it will be fun to wait. I have to say I was pretty surprised to see its gonna take 5 days to go 20 hours of driving time. Love seeing all the pics posted too!


----------



## rocky500

Still waiting on my order #474 with USB going to Australia.
  No confirmation yet.
   
  Scratch that. Just recieved an email that it should be next week. Awesome.


----------



## eclein

*Now this is Customer service!!!!!!*
   
*I sent Jason a question at Schiit tonite at like 12:15 am Saturday and he responded in 2 minutes, 2 minutes!!!!!!!!!*
*on a FRIDAY night at 12:15 am*
_*That my friends is why these guys will succeed-great product, superior customer service!!!!!!*_


----------



## internethandle

Quote: 





eclein said:


> *Now this is Customer service!!!!!!*
> 
> *I sent Jason a question at Schiit tonite at like 12:15 am Saturday and he responded in 2 minutes, 2 minutes!!!!!!!!!*
> *on a FRIDAY night at 12:15 am*
> _*That my friends is why these guys will succeed-great product, superior customer service!!!!!!*_


 


  Yeah, seriously - you'd think THAT's crazy, but I e-mailed Jason last week at ~11:30 pm PST (Schiit is PST also) and he responded in, like, a minute thirty.


----------



## ecohifi

Quote: 





internethandle said:


> Yeah, seriously - you'd think THAT's crazy, but I e-mailed Jason last week at ~11:30 pm PST (Schiit is PST also) and he responded in, like, a minute thirty.


 

 I deal with milti trillion dollar companies everyday and I support products that are $500.000AU and to get support throught some of these organisations can take mths/yrs to get a solution to our clients.  Take the Iphone4 etc the latest firmaware just fixed my remote internet connection issue and thats almost 12mths of complaints thru my organisation.  There is also a stigma that douwnunder is just 1% fo the world markets thats why we are not taken seriously with priority. 
  To see Jason  monitoring the post and feedback on this thread and to ensure that end user is satisfied, from the time a order is placed to the time people are posting there issues and opinions, well what can you say, mate I take my hat off and take a bow.  I dont think there is a director or designer that has taken such interest to ensure this level of customer service.
  Its not just good schiit,  but screw*n excellent Schiit!!!  And I dont own any Schiit products, not yet anyway.
  And no I have no financial interest or relations with Jason or Schiit and that can be comfirmed with Jason!


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





maxvla said:


> Got a nice little shock going to Radio Shack for an optical cable tonight. Apparently the standard optical cables these days are $40.


 

 Ouch.  I had much better luck at Fry's and BB even.


----------



## eclein

I use these Toslink cables, great price and sound very good.....
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=181-040
   
  I do not work for them I just use the products....
   Ed


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





eclein said:


> I use these Toslink cables, great price and sound very good.....
> http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=181-040
> 
> I do not work for them I just use the products....
> Ed


 

 Have one of those in my toolbox too.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  
   
  At the time i just wanted to go to a brick and mortar and grab 5-7 different ones and try them out.  Ended up keeping a $7.99 and $14.99 cable and returned the rest.  The others were both cheaper and more expensive so price meant nothing compared to what I heard.


----------



## Maxvla

eclein said:


> I use these Toslink cables, great price and sound very good.....
> http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=181-040
> 
> I do not work for them I just use the products....
> Ed




http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10229&cs_id=1022904&p_id=3396&seq=1&format=2

Same cable for almost half price. Monoprice also offers super cheap shipping for small orders, in my case $2.50. I got the 6 foot version, though.


----------



## M-13

LOL, I've had similar experiences with Jason, the man never sleeps. I hope things never change, even when Schiit gets huge. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
  Quote: 





eclein said:


> *Now this is Customer service!!!!!!*
> 
> *I sent Jason a question at Schiit tonite at like 12:15 am Saturday and he responded in 2 minutes, 2 minutes!!!!!!!!!*
> *on a FRIDAY night at 12:15 am*
> _*That my friends is why these guys will succeed-great product, superior customer service!!!!!!*_


----------



## Currawong

Just a reminder guys (and girls, if there are any!) that personal attacks are not on. There's no problem with disagreeing with people, only a problem with being abusive towards them.  Please do not ruin the community with such things.


----------



## ninjikiran

And here I thought I would wait a while, they already shipped it.  Epic


----------



## sling5s

Right now I got my Grado RS1i paired with Asgard and Bifrost and it's magic.  
  I used to have my Grado RS1i paired with MAD EAR HD and NFB-3 and loved what it did.  The MAD EAR HD was warm and smooth and so was the NFB-3, dark yet detailed but the Asgard and Bifrost does it better.  I don't know if it's the Asgard or the Bifrost because they are both new to me but together they are more magical than the MAD EAR HD and NFB-3 combo (to my ears).  The Asgard and Bifrost on my RS1i gives it the warmth the Grado RS1i needs yet, it's more open, airy, dynamic with a wider soundstage than the MAD EAR HD and NFB-3. 
   
  Thanks Jason.


----------



## Butler

sling5s said:


> Right now I got my Grado RS1i paired with Asgard and Bifrost and it's magic.
> 
> 
> I used to have my Grado RS1i paired with MAD EAR HD and NFB-3 and loved what it did.  The MAD EAR HD was warm and smooth and so was the NFB-3, dark yet detailed but the Asgard and Bifrost does it better.  I don't know if it's the Asgard or the Bifrost because they are both new to me but together they are more magical than the MAD EAR HD and NFB-3 combo (to my ears).  The Asgard and Bifrost on my RS1i gives it the warmth the Grado RS1i needs yet, it's more open, airy, dynamic with a wider soundstage than the MAD EAR HD and NFB-3.
> ...




Perhaps you can comment on bass? It seems that's where people have been agreeing and disagreeing.


----------



## sling5s

Because the Asgard and the Bifrost is new for me, so it's hard to compare.  I'm used to the NFB-3 which is a darker dac but it's hard not being familiar with both the Asgard and Bifrost but I can say that impressions of the Bifrost I believe are correct.  It's open, airy and detailed without being bright.  The bass with Asgard and Bifrost at first seemed to be without impact, it was soft, lacking weight and punch. But after couple hours, again, I don't know if it was the Asgard or the Bifrost, but the bass kicked in.  
   
  So in comparison to the MAD EAR HD and NFB-3 which I was used to with my RS1i, I can say that the Asgard and Bifrost together has greater bass definition, it's tighter, has more impact and punch.  To me, I'm getting better bass on my RS1i, than I did before.


----------



## eclein

Whenever mine comes in I'm ready with my modded Grado SR325's and HE-5LE's, got a HE adapter ordered so I can use my Virtue TWO.2 as a headphone amp and the bifrost will do the D to A conversion for Squeezebox, my laptop, my PS3, and the Virtue Piano M1 CD Player will just keep doing what its doing I won't be so bummed out I've become disabled and can't really walk anymore....its all good...CRANK UP THE MUSIC!!!!!
 I do miss banging the drum all day though......


----------



## jerikl

@sling5s -- It'd be incredibly interesting if you were able to get your hands on a MAD EAR HD to compare the Asgard. I had an Asgard for about a month when I was comparing it with a MAD Ear+ and Millett MiniMax, trying to figure out which one I was going to keep. HRT Music Streamer II as DAC. The MAD Ear+ ultimately won out, and by a fairly large margin to my ears compared with the Asgard. Most of my listening with this combo is done with a vintage pair of Grado RS-1s. With price considerations for new versions of the amps, it's not a fair match ... but still.
   
  It's interesting that you are enjoying the Bifrost/Asgard combination more. I have a feeling it was a matching issue ... but then again, sometimes I just prefer to listen to Grado SR225s out of an iPhone compared to the desktop rig. Are you sure it's not just the looks of the pair together that is winning you over? Because that IS fantastic, I'm sure  Argh, now I'm considering grabbing the Asgard again out of curiosity.


----------



## HaVoC-28

Quote: 





sling5s said:


> Because the Asgard and the Bifrost is new for me, so it's hard to compare.  I'm used to the NFB-3 which is a darker dac but it's hard not being familiar with both the Asgard and Bifrost but I can say that impressions of the Bifrost I believe are correct.  It's open, airy and detailed without being bright.  The bass with Asgard and Bifrost at first seemed to be without impact, it was soft, lacking weight and punch. But after couple hours, again, I don't know if it was the Asgard or the Bifrost, but the bass kicked in.
> 
> So in comparison to the MAD EAR HD and NFB-3 which I was used to with my RS1i, I can say that the Asgard and Bifrost together has greater bass definition, it's tighter, has more impact and punch.  To me, I'm getting better bass on my RS1i, than I did before.


 


  Plug your NFB-3 in your Asgard and compare it to the Bifrost  .


----------



## sling5s

First, I really think it's the combination too.  The Asgard and Bifrost work well together to really make the RS1i shine.  Secondly, I should also admit that there's some new toy (& sound) factor.
  Thirdly I think is my preference.  I prefer the more wider and airy presentation to the smooth and thick sound of the MAD EAR.  The bass is also more tighter and snappier on the Asgard/Bifrost too.
  If there is anything that MAD EAR does better than the Asgard, it will be the midrange, the MAD EAR had a more warm and fuller midrange.  There's always trade offs I guess. 
   
  
  Quote: 





jerikl said:


> @sling5s -- It'd be incredibly interesting if you were able to get your hands on a MAD EAR HD to compare the Asgard. I had an Asgard for about a month when I was comparing it with a MAD Ear+ and Millett MiniMax, trying to figure out which one I was going to keep. HRT Music Streamer II as DAC. The MAD Ear+ ultimately won out, and by a fairly large margin to my ears compared with the Asgard. Most of my listening with this combo is done with a vintage pair of Grado RS-1s. With price considerations for new versions of the amps, it's not a fair match ... but still.
> 
> It's interesting that you are enjoying the Bifrost/Asgard combination more. I have a feeling it was a matching issue ... but then again, sometimes I just prefer to listen to Grado SR225s out of an iPhone compared to the desktop rig. Are you sure it's not just the looks of the pair together that is winning you over? Because that IS fantastic, I'm sure  Argh, now I'm considering grabbing the Asgard again out of curiosity.


 


  My NFB-3 is hooked up to my Main Speaker system and it's a pain to unhook.  But I do believe that the Bifrost is more airly and throws a wider soundstage for sure.  As preference goes, I do prefer the presentation of the Bifrost.
  Quote: 





havoc-28 said:


> Plug your NFB-3 in your Asgard and compare it to the Bifrost  .


----------



## ecohifi

Quote: 





currawong said:


> Just a reminder guys (and girls, if there are any!) that personal attacks are not on. There's no problem with disagreeing with people, only a problem with being abusive towards them.  Please do not ruin the community with such things.


 

 Agreed, hope I haven't offended anyone, PLEASE accept my apologies if I have!!!


----------



## olor1n

Quote: 





sling5s said:


> [...]
> 
> My NFB-3 is hooked up to my Main Speaker system and it's a pain to unhook.  But I do believe that the Bifrost is more airly and throws a wider soundstage for sure.  As preference goes, I do prefer the presentation of the Bifrost.
> Quote:
> ...


 


  Plug your Bifrost into your speaker system, volume match and compare to the NFB-3 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
   
  The impressions are greatly appreciated but my new toy syndrome filter is working overtime. Some comparisons seem to include changes to a rig beyond the Bifrost itself, diluting any real insight. Still waiting for more detailed and balanced impressions.


----------



## Argo Duck

^ this is very true. Once my bifrost arrives, I'll spend the first 10 days comparing mostly to the MiniMax/Concerto - as that's my usual combination - and partly to the MiniMax/Lyr. Then I'll bring back the StageDAC/Concerto for a couple of days to re-attune before trying the StageDAC/bifrost comparison.


----------



## olor1n

Cool. Particularly interested in your impressions of the Lyr/Bifrost/LCD-2 setup. I suspect that system will soon be ubiquitous around these parts.


----------



## ecohifi

Quote: 





argo duck said:


> ^ this is very true. Once my bifrost arrives, I'll spend the first 10 days comparing mostly to the MiniMax/Concerto - as that's my usual combination - and partly to the MiniMax/Lyr. Then I'll bring back the StageDAC/Concerto for a couple of days to re-attune before trying the StageDAC/bifrost comparison.


 

 I cant wait for your findings Aidee,  10 days is toooooo far away!!!  Please please keeps me posted everystep of the way. 
   
  Aidee, have you ever tried opamp rolling in the EE mini max?


----------



## Argo Duck

@olor1n agreed!
   
  @ecohifi, nope no opamp rolling. I can solder and have tinkered a bit with circuits in the past (mostly as a teenager) but TBH I'm too much a theoretician to get round to this sort of thing these days, even when I want to 
   
  Cheers, Andre


----------



## MJM72

Hello,
  I've had my bifrost about 6 days now. So far I think it sounds excellent. But I'm experiencing a weird problem. I'm running Windows 7, and I use Foobar as my media player, although I do work with other audio apps such as izotope and Soundforge.  I downloaded the USB drivers from the Schiit website. It appears that anytime I play files, a WAV file is created in my C: directory.
   
  See this screen cap: 
  (http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/4026/schiitcapture.jpg)
   
  One night I played about 5 hours of music, that's the 3.6GB file, my whole playlist.  These arent temp files, since they're there after I reboot.  Also of note, they are all the same bitrate, 3072kbps (which I believe is 16bit, 96khz pcm). It doesn't seem to matter that most files I played were 24/96, but also some 24/192 and 16/44. I've used several other USB DACs, never seen anything like this before. Anybody have any ideas?


----------



## Anathallo

I have no idea - but just out of curiousity - when you play the newly created wav files what do you hear?  Or when you say "my whole playlist" do you mean it's just making a copy of all the music you were listening to?
  
  Quote: 





mjm72 said:


> Hello,
> I've had my bifrost about 6 days now. So far I think it sounds excellent. But I'm experiencing a weird problem. I'm running Windows 7, and I use Foobar as my media player, although I do work with other audio apps such as izotope and Soundforge.  I downloaded the USB drivers from the Schiit website. It appears that anytime I play files, a WAV file is created in my C: directory.
> 
> See this screen cap:
> ...


----------



## internethandle

Quote: 





mjm72 said:


> Hello,
> I've had my bifrost about 6 days now. So far I think it sounds excellent. But I'm experiencing a weird problem. I'm running Windows 7, and I use Foobar as my media player, although I do work with other audio apps such as izotope and Soundforge.  I downloaded the USB drivers from the Schiit website. It appears that anytime I play files, a WAV file is created in my C: directory.
> 
> See this screen cap:
> ...


 


  Yeah, this is happening to me and another head-fi user, as well. See this thread over in Computer Audio:
   
http://www.head-fi.org/t/579020/schiit-bifrost-issue-any-ideas
   
  So far no solution yet - Jason was contacted by the other head-fi user, and he said they hadn't encountered it before during testing, so he's currently checking with CMedia for a solution. It seems like it's probably a driver issue to me. And yes, when you play back the WAVs, it indeed is a recording of what you've played over the Bifrost. Interestingly, though, I just played back one of them and it was a recording of the audio from a trailer on YouTube I just watched - when the Bifrost was turned OFF and my Realtek on-board audio was outputting to my desktop speakers. Really bizarre. Thankfully, it doesn't seem to effect anything if you delete the files, but they can quickly accumulate a lot of drive space - when I realized the issue, I ended up deleting a whole 30 GB. It also seems to me that it could be contributing some unnecessary latency and/or I/O by having the driver real-time encode a WAV concurrent to playback. Anyway, I'm sure a resolution will appear somehow.


----------



## wberghofer

Received my Schiit Bifrost (non-USB version) two weeks ago.
   

   
  It looks great and sounds even better. Many thanks to Jason and the whole Schiit team for the great products and the usually very quick email replies.
   
  Werner.


----------



## Jason Stoddard

Quote:


internethandle said:


> Yeah, this is happening to me and another head-fi user, as well. See this thread over in Computer Audio:
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/579020/schiit-bifrost-issue-any-ideas
> 
> So far no solution yet - Jason was contacted by the other head-fi user, and he said they hadn't encountered it before during testing, so he's currently checking with CMedia for a solution. It seems like it's probably a driver issue to me. And yes, when you play back the WAVs, it indeed is a recording of what you've played over the Bifrost. Interestingly, though, I just played back one of them and it was a recording of the audio from a trailer on YouTube I just watched - when the Bifrost was turned OFF and my Realtek on-board audio was outputting to my desktop speakers. Really bizarre. Thankfully, it doesn't seem to effect anything if you delete the files, but they can quickly accumulate a lot of drive space - when I realized the issue, I ended up deleting a whole 30 GB. It also seems to me that it could be contributing some unnecessary latency and/or I/O by having the driver real-time encode a WAV concurrent to playback. Anyway, I'm sure a resolution will appear somehow.


 
   
  Yep, we swapped to newer drivers on the advice of C-Media, which appear to be somewhat betaish.
   
  We've since swapped the download on the site back to the older drivers (23MB, 8.2139) which have never exhibited this behavior. Try those!


----------



## mmayer167

Gorgo setup Werner!


----------



## Butler

Yeah the aesthetics of your set up is absolutely astounding. The way that it's simple, uniform, and complete makes it a really great composition, and very envy worthy. My Bifrost will be here Friday, and will be paired with an Asgard, but it wont match my cans, but I can deal with that.


----------



## bcart180

Quote: 





wberghofer said:


> Received my Schiit Bifrost (non-USB version) two weeks ago.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 



 That setup looks absolutely beautiful.  I can't wait for my Bifrost!


----------



## wberghofer

Quote: 





butler said:


> Yeah the aesthetics of your set up is absolutely astounding. The way that it's simple, uniform, and complete makes it a really great composition […]


 

 Thank you for your kinds words, and thanks also to the other dudes liking my gear. But credit must be given to the product designers at Schiit Audio and Beyerdynamic for creating good looking and great sounding products. I’m just a customer 
   
  In case anybody is interested to see more from my multi-room setup: I posted some pictures in the computer audio forum here at Head-Fi.
   
  Werner.


----------



## 188479

Well my Bifrost arrived today!  It's my first DAC, so nothing to compare it to really.  Very easy to install the drivers and it played every different bitrate file I through at it.  I'm a happy camper!


----------



## mmayer167

That is a nice flat you have there Werner   ^ congrats on your bifrost Kevin!   
   
  M


----------



## Kremer930

I received my USB equipped bifrost yesterday too.  Especially exciting as the tracking suggested that I would get it today instead.
   
  I will let it burn in for a while before forming any opinions on it but I agree with what others have said in that it is significantly nicer than the Cambridge DacMagic.  I tried the USB using a silver usb cable playing 196 delivered source from Pure Music software and it certainly doesnt sound bad at all.  I think that it may add extra weight to female vocals but the optical, even at only 24/96(limited by the MAC), is cleaner sounding.  This is just my quick thoughts from an initial listening session so I cant say that they are confirmed as yet.
   
  The interesting thing that did go through my head though, apart from glorious Schiit delivered tunes, was that I was thinking of my need to upgrade further.  I was sitting back thinking that Mac, Pure Music 1.85, Bifrost to Lyr to Hifiman HE6 was a great combination.  How much extra quality could I get for the money?  Then I thought....Gee Jason may have done himself out of future sales by creating his entry level products that do such a fine job.  I was very happy indeed with my current rig.
   
  Luckily....senses kicked in an hour later and I thought...yes the volume could handle being run at 10-12 rather than 12-2 and I wonder what Jason's uber Dac will do if this is the base model....  I am hooked in...again!!


----------



## estreeter

Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> Quote:
> 
> Yep, we swapped to newer drivers on the advice of C-Media, which appear to be somewhat betaish.
> 
> We've since swapped the download on the site back to the older drivers (23MB, 8.2139) which have never exhibited this behavior. Try those!


 

 Just between you and me, Jason, did you tear anyone a 'new one' over at C-Media ? I've worked in IT for many years, and I know what its like to be on both ends of that phone call  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  Appreciate your honesty about this snafu, btw - there are many companies who would simply say 'It would appear that you have a corrupt driver installation - just download the drivers from our website and re-install', and that seems to become more prevalent the larger a company becomes.


----------



## dwk

Quote: 





wberghofer said:


> Received my Schiit Bifrost (non-USB version) two weeks ago.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


  Yeah, they really got the styling right on their gear. I just got a Lyr, and despite being happy with my current source I find myself considering a Bifrost at least partially due to the aesthetics of the stacked pair.


----------



## mmayer167

Myself and Fluffygdog95 agreed that whoever came up with Schiits marketing and simplistic sleek design should get an honorary degree from Harvard or something.   That is if they don't already have one. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





    
   
  M


----------



## blankdisc

Well...i do know that the idea of naming their company "Schiit" comes from Rina.


----------



## livewire

Quote: 





wberghofer said:


> Thank you for your kinds words, and thanks also to the other dudes liking my gear. But credit must be given to the product designers at Schiit Audio and Beyerdynamic for creating good looking and great sounding products. I’m just a customer
> 
> In case anybody is interested to see more from my multi-room setup: I posted some pictures in the computer audio forum here at Head-Fi.
> 
> Werner.


 


 Werner, color me jealous. Nice world you live in...


----------



## MJM72

The problem with the rendered WAV files on Windows 7 has been fixed. Uninstalled old drivers, and installed the newer (older) ones. Thanks guys! Back to listening.


----------



## pseudohippy

I gotta ask though Werner, what do you think of the IKEA chair. Ive got one and Im really disappointed with it. There seems to be a bar/slat or whatever you would call it right in the middle of my back and while it feels fine the first hour it really starts to bug me. Or are IKEA chairs better in non US countries lol. Either way what a wonderful place you got. Love the decorating and obviously that beautiful view. Just was wondering about the chair for fun lol. I think if I was taller it may not actually be a problem. Apologies if it isnt a IKEA chair, but it looks exactly like mine. Wow, very jealous of your place and what Im seeing in and around it!


----------



## internethandle

Yep the new drivers fixed the problem.


----------



## estreeter

Quote:  





> Yeah, they really got the styling right on their gear. I just got a Lyr, and despite being happy with my current source I find myself considering a Bifrost at least partially due to the aesthetics of the stacked pair.


 
   
  How about the combined *thermal output* of the stacked pair ?


----------



## olor1n

Quote: 





wberghofer said:


> Received my Schiit Bifrost (non-USB version) two weeks ago.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
   
  Is it wrong that this image has me sold on the Bifrost, rather than the impressions to date?


----------



## Traddad

Werner,
Looks like you have some history with the Beresford sacs...how does the Schiit compare?


----------



## Traddad

Werner,
Looks like you have some history with the Beresford DAC...how does the Schiit compare?


----------



## wberghofer

traddad said:


> how does the Schiit compare? […]


 
   
  since it’s difficult for me to describe sound and music in English (not my native language) I’ll concentrate more on the clearly visible outside facts.
   
  Build quality and design of the Schiit Bifrost are on a very different level than the Beresford DAC. The Beresford feels and looks cheap compared to the Bifrost’s massive metal housing. I also like that the Bifrost does not use an external power supply. The power button and the input selection push-buttons on the front of the Beresford sometimes are difficult to operate; there’s a certain point which one has to hit exactly, otherwise the buttons simply won’t react.
   
  For its price the performance of the latest Beresford DAC (gatorized Caiman) is very good, and it offers more input connections than the Bifrost: two BNC inputs, one USB and one Toslink. I have two Beresford DACs with two BNC and two Toslink inputs  (don’t need USB), but I don’t think that this special configuration is still available. Since there are two line-outs (fixed and variable) on the Beresford, it can be used as a preamp. It even has a headphone output with decent performance (depening on your headphones), but it shouldn’t be compared to a true stand-alone headphone amplifier. The Beresford’s volume knob feels light and cheap compared to the Valhalla’s volume knob, which offers a great tactile feedback while turning it.
   
  I still use two Beresford DACs in my home in systems for loudspeaker playback, but for headphone listening I certainly do prefer the Bifrost/Valhalla combination. The Bifrost’s detail resolution is excellent, there’s more muscle, grunt and power (but this may be due to the Valhalla amplifier). When listening with the Bifrost and Valhalla, after a few minutes I forget to look for new layers of detail and instrument separation (which of course are there), but simply get lost in the music instead. Think this is the best one can say about equipment built for music playback.
   
  Werner.


----------



## wberghofer

estreeter said:


> How about the combined *thermal output* of the stacked pair ?


 
   
  According to Jason Stoddard it’s not a problem to stack them together, as long as the amplifier is placed on top of the Bifrost.
   
  Werner.


----------



## wberghofer

pseudohippy said:


> I think if I was taller it may not actually be a problem […]


 
   
  There a two IKEA chairs of this certain model in my home, and I feel very comfortable when sitting, but I’m pretty tall (201 cm, think that’s approximately six feet and seven inches).
   
  Werner.


----------



## wberghofer

olor1n said:


> Is it wrong that this image has me sold on the Bifrost […]


 
   
  No, absolutely not; our whole lives are sold completely on images 
   
  But in case of the Bifrost there are certainly more and other qualities, which are more than skin deep.
   
  Werner.


----------



## estreeter

Quote: 





wberghofer said:


> since it’s difficult for me to describe sound and music in English (not my native language) I’ll concentrate more on the clearly visible outside facts.


 
   
  Werner, I think you may be guilty of false modesty - there is absolutely nothing wrong with your written English - please don't hold back with those impressions, and when you've finished I'd like you to give Mike at Headfonia a few tips on grammar. Now *that* is one guy who clearly has English as a second language !


----------



## M-13

+1 It's all about enjoying the music. Great Photo and well-written impression. Turn on the music! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
  Quote: 





wberghofer said:


> after a few minutes I forget to look for new layers of detail and instrument separation (which of course are there), but simply get lost in the music instead. Think this is the best one can say about equipment built for music playback.
> 
> Werner.


----------



## Ham Sandwich

Quote: 





wberghofer said:


> Thank you for your kinds words, and thanks also to the other dudes liking my gear. But credit must be given to the product designers at Schiit Audio and Beyerdynamic for creating good looking and great sounding products. I’m just a customer
> 
> In case anybody is interested to see more from my multi-room setup: I posted some pictures in the computer audio forum here at Head-Fi.
> 
> Werner.


 


  With a view like that I'd play "Also Sprach Zarathustra" on the speakers every morning at sunrise.  Then "Eine Alpensinfonie" on the headphones every evening.


----------



## wberghofer

ham sandwich said:


> With a view like that I'd play "Also Sprach Zarathustra" on the speakers every morning […]


 
   
  Great choice! I like it, but most of the time when played in Stanley Kubrick’s “2001: A Space Odyssey”. I wouldn’t be possible on a regular basis; I usually get out of bed in the morning quite early, but not always exactly before sunrise 
   
[size=medium]


ham sandwich said:


> Then "Eine Alpensinfonie" on the headphones every evening.



[/size]

 [size=medium]  [/size]
 [size=medium] Again, great choice. I prefer “Tirol Concerto” by Philip Glass, performed by the Stuttgart Chamber Orchestra with Dennis Russell Davies.[/size]​
   
  Werner.


----------



## judmarc

Don't know how many of you are in a similar situation to mine, which is that I've been an audiophile for more than 30 years, have had much of my current equipment for around 20 years, and just fairly recently have begun to explore computers as audio sources.  I have a 20 year old DAC that was a pretty fair piece of equipment for its day, but it is limited to 16/44.1 or 16/48 resolution.  So when the designer of my old DAC (Mike Moffat) came out with a new one that could handle resolutions up to 24/192 at a very nice price point, I was interested, and soon ordered one.  There's a 15-day money back guarantee, so the focus of my early listening has been to compare my older DAC to the Bifrost on 16/44.1 CD rips, which makes up virtually all of what I listen to these days.  If anyone here has an older DAC and is considering the Bifrost, perhaps you'll be interested in my early listening impressions so far.
   
  Details of my setup are in my sig.  All listening was done with the Audirvana Plus audiophile player for Mac.
   
*24 hours:*
   
  Still burning in and had only the briefest of listening opportunities Thursday night, then a bit longer session last night.
  The USB input sounds better (clearer, hear more of the recording) than the optical input. Not light years difference, but noticeable. Both sound better than coax input through the V-Link.
   
  Comparison with the Theta so far is interesting. Bifrost is so clear and unadorned that on some very plainly produced music it is almost in-your-face raw. For instance, on Silver Dagger from Gillian Welch's latest, The Harrow and The Harvest, there are two points - one where a harmonica enters and another where Welch gives a kind of "Hoo!" call - where the suddenness of the attack through the Bifrost is absolutely startling. Welch's voice is so plainly and clearly rendered it seems as if she's in the room singing, no mic, no amp.
   
  The Theta, on the other hand, makes things (including Gillian's voice) sound prettier. But though the Theta is no slouch as far as clarity, there isn't quite the same absolute immediacy as with the Bifrost.
   
  The sound of the Bifrost does seem to be getting more full and musical as it burns in, so I'll be very interested to see how it compares to the Theta once it has 100 hours or so of playing time.
   
*80 hours:*
   
  Now after about 80 hours (should have been 96, but forgot to reconnect wall power for MacBook so battery ran down) the clarity and immediacy are still there. What's improved:
   
  - Sound is far more full. When plugged in for the very first time there was a bit of a thin quality. That's completely gone.
   
  - Sound is more integrated into a whole. In early listening there were individual instruments in a high, wide soundstage, but that soundstage wasn't a completely seamless illusion of musicians in a space, and it wasn't always evident how instruments were playing off each other. Now not just individual instrument locations and parts, but also the interplay between band members (e.g., of Alison Krauss's terrific band on _Paper Airplane_) is clear in the context of a full, solid soundstage.
   
  - Sound is more musical. The beauty of Alison Krauss's voice is all there, while losing none of its clarity. My wife preferred the Theta at 48 hours because of its musicality. Now she prefers the Bifrost, and I agree. For $450, that's an accomplishment. Yes, the Theta is 20 years older. But it was a $2000 piece when purchased, then had an $800 upgrade. Even apart from the digital components, for which 20 years is an eon, there was a lot of analog goodness bought by that $2800, and the Theta heard by itself still sounds lovely. In spite of the years between them, for a unit 1/6 the price by the same designer to be so clearly superior does surprise me.
   
  Frankly, I'm finding little or nothing to criticize in the Bifrost's sound, which is somewhat remarkable to me considering its price, the fact that it is still not completely burned in, and reasonably revealing associated equipment. Now I'm very much looking forward to beginning to explore some 24/96 material I've bought on DVD-A, as well as some high res downloads.
   
* *
* *


----------



## sling5s

That's interesting because I'm finding the Bifrost a little thin and raw too but I have only burned it in about 20 hours.  Hope it does warm up and get fuller.
  I love the Asgard for the Grado RS1i but the Bifrost, while I love it's soundstage, detail and airiness, it is thin and raw at times. To me at this point, while it is more detailed (or gives it the impression because it is more bright and has more instrument separation than the NFB-3) but it is more thin and colder than my NFB-3.  The NFB-3 is definitely more fuller and warmer dac.  I'm hoping as you said again, that the Bifrost does warm up and get fuller because I love the other qualities of the dac.
  
  Quote: 





judmarc said:


> Don't know how many of you are in a similar situation to mine, which is that I've been an audiophile for more than 30 years, have had much of my current equipment for around 20 years, and just fairly recently have begun to explore computers as audio sources.  I have a 20 year old DAC that was a pretty fair piece of equipment for its day, but it is limited to 16/44.1 or 16/48 resolution.  So when the designer of my old DAC (Mike Moffat) came out with a new one that could handle resolutions up to 24/192 at a very nice price point, I was interested, and soon ordered one.  There's a 15-day money back guarantee, so the focus of my early listening has been to compare my older DAC to the Bifrost on 16/44.1 CD rips, which makes up virtually all of what I listen to these days.  If anyone here has an older DAC and is considering the Bifrost, perhaps you'll be interested in my early listening impressions so far.
> 
> Details of my setup are in my sig.  All listening was done with the Audirvana Plus audiophile player for Mac.
> 
> ...


----------



## Blurpapa

Quote: 





ecohifi said:


> I cant wait for your findings Aidee,  10 days is toooooo far away!!!  Please please keeps me posted everystep of the way.
> 
> Aidee, have you ever tried opamp rolling in the EE mini max?


 


  X2! Camped!


----------



## ecohifi

Judmarc,
   
  Thank god I'm not alone,  I have built my amp and speakers when I was 22-25, I still used them today.  My son is 21.8 and this stuff is older by 3-4 years.  When my daughter was 6, I had to explain to her what a Linn LP12 did because she was bought up with CDs!!
   
  Great write up on your impressions, I have the EE mini max + I have just bought recently and it is now harder to keep my money in my pocket!


----------



## Argo Duck

Ok. I received my bifrost about 20 hours ago, unexpectedly two days early. Yesterday morning I was still sorting out review tracks, so I was caught unprepared!
   
  Anyway, I had auditioned five possible tracks earlier in the morning (see note 1 for rig), so I repeated those tracks (see note 2) with Bifrost (BTW no-USB), and made some notes. I _nearly_ posted those early impressions yesterday, then decided to wait out the 50-100 hours burn-in Jason suggested.
   
  However, there is substantial overlap with both Judmarc's and sling5s's impressions, so I shall post now. These are _first hour impressions_ from yesterday - treat them as such. *Health advisory - each to be consumed with a large grain of salt!*
  1. _clarity is the stand-out feature_. It's rather striking. I did not expect this, given both the EE MiniMax (EE) and StageDAC are quite detailed, resolving DACs.
  2. _attack is very good_. Actually, I feel there may be a bright balance (or the EE is a little dark in the presence region), which could lead to this impression
  3. _well-defined bass_. One track is a rock-pop ballad with a nice, low bass-guitar tune running through it. Hitherto (from memory) it has sounded a little muddy. I assumed it was deliberately mixed that way to complement the mournful "my boyfriend left me for another girl and she's so darned perfect" theme of the song. However, the bifrost rendered this bass-line with quite striking definition
  4. just _slightly_ "thin" and "raw" I would agree with; a touch relentless. Of course this has implications concerning the sound of the MiniMax! Still, this led me to look for burn-in notes in HeroKid's post 1, where I duly found them. Great job!
   
  So far I am impressed. Compared to the EE - my usual headphone DAC - Bifrost stands up well. ATM, I suspect I will call the sound signatures somewhat different between the two, maybe a bit closer between Bifrost and StageDAC.
   
  What next? I see this taking at least ten days. Some days I won't get to this at all. I have some exhausting projects on ATM, and there's no point listening when tired or stressed. However, I am happy to report any large findings/changes along the way, once I'm 'sure' of them.
   
  More in due course.
   
  note 1 - MacMini - iTunes - ALAC/WAV - TOSLINK - EE MiniMax DAC - Meier Concerto - LCD2 rev 1. I use Concerto about 50%, Lyr 45%, Violectric V100 or Meier Opera the other 5%. BitPerfect was disengaged as I've had some problems with it recently. Fidelia may make an appearance for some classical FLAC files. My T1 and Stax Lambda Pro will make cameo appearances, once I have solid impressions with my usual rig.
   
  note 2 - leveled to 80dBA, the same level I set with the MiniMax in preparation for Bifrost's arrival. My meter claims +/- 1.5dB accuracy, and reproducing probe placement is approximately right but not perfect. _Perfect_ level-matching cannot be guaranteed.


----------



## judmarc

_BitPerfect was disengaged as I've had some problems with it recently. Fidelia may make an appearance for some classical FLAC files._
   
  Please do have a look at Audirvana Plus.  I've listened to both Bit Perfect and Fidelia (other players as well) extensively, and prefer A+.  Free trial period.  It's very good with subtle nuances on instruments and vocals as well as transient attacks, all of which suits the Bifrost well.


----------



## Argo Duck

Thanks judmarc - will do, but probably not for the present purpose - at least not initially - as I don't want to introduce a 2nd new variable. Cheers.


----------



## Butler

It's interesting that people are commenting about how raw and aggressive they are finding their bifrost. I may keep my W5000's modded after all, because they're pretty dang fatiguing unmodded and I'm sure a raw sound may only add to that. I'll have to see for myself I suppose. I'll know in a couple of days now, I'm excited.


----------



## judmarc

_I don't want to introduce a 2nd new variable._
   
  Yep, can certainly understand that.  Ain't it grand when you can make a little research project out of one of life's pleasures?


----------



## judmarc

Quote:


butler said:


> It's interesting that people are commenting about how raw and aggressive they are finding their bifrost. I may keep my W5000's modded after all, because they're pretty dang fatiguing unmodded and I'm sure a raw sound may only add to that. I'll have to see for myself I suppose. I'll know in a couple of days now, I'm excited.


 
   
  Raw right out of the box, yes.  That changes in a couple of days - at least it did for me.


----------



## TS0711

@judmarc

What are your preferences set to on A+? I'm using the last release of the free version and was crippled by CPU overloads until I realized I had integer mode on. Once I took that off, it's been great. I only has able to get about 50 hours of run in before I had to leave for the week but the Bitfrost has really opened up.
I can't wait to get back home.


----------



## olor1n

Quote: 





argo duck said:


> Thanks judmarc - will do, but probably not for the present purpose - at least not initially - as I don't want to introduce a 2nd new variable. Cheers.


 


  Finally, a measured approach! Looking forwarded to reading how your impressions develop AD.


----------



## Argo Duck

Yes it is - but I'm determined not to let my professional life leak into my hobby (read relaxation) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  I already made a few posts in Sound Science, but on balance that is a place I should avoid.
  
  Quote: 





judmarc said:


> _I don't want to introduce a 2nd new variable._
> 
> Yep, can certainly understand that.  *Ain't it grand when you can make a little research project out of one of life's pleasures?*


----------



## Argo Duck

Cheers olor1n! This is certainly what I'm _aiming_ for. Achieving it may be less easy!
  Quote: 





olor1n said:


> Finally, a measured approach! Looking forwarded to reading how your impressions develop AD.


----------



## olor1n

I appreciate the difficulty. There were many instances in the 10SE thread where I deleted long winded passages filled with superlatives, or simply chose not to post to ensure a balanced impression. I'm certain I failed miserably regardless.


----------



## ecohifi

Aidee,
   
  Thank God its arrived,  love what you have written.
   
  I'm hanging out in ten days for you update and hopfully more comparisions on the EE mini max!
   
  Dont let me down, pleeeese!!!!


----------



## dyl1dyl

Hope all those who have got their Bifrosts are enjoying them a lot. I'm hoping the great guys at Schiit can clear up the backlog asap so they can take a well deserved break... and then start working on the baalnced stuff


----------



## Argo Duck

You most certainly did not! I greatly appreciated your careful and informative observations. Heck, I _nearly_ ordered a 10SE right then and there - and maybe I will one day 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
   
  @ecohifi - lol I won't let you down. Comparisons with the minimax will certainly be a large part of it!
   
   
  Right, back to work...
  
  Quote: 





olor1n said:


> I'm certain I failed miserably regardless.


----------



## ecohifi

Quote: 





argo duck said:


> You most certainly did not! I greatly appreciated your careful and informative observations. Heck, I _nearly_ ordered a 10SE right


 

 I was seriously considering the Audio gd 10SE if thats what your referring,  Excellent value for $499US but I didn't think that the WM chips will be as detailed as the EE mini max or the Bifrost!  So committed on the EE mini max +.


----------



## olor1n

I don't feel the dual wm8741 lack in detail in Audio-GD's implementation of it in the 10SE. Any compromise though would be justified in the price you pay and the fact it's a fully balanced setup (dac and amp). I'd love to compare the 10SE to a Lyr/Bifrost combo. At the moment, the Lyr is a bit redundant in my setup.


----------



## RazorJack

Quote: 





argo duck said:


> Ok. I received my bifrost


 


  Cool!
  When you're doing comparisons against the Stagedac, will you use its crossfeed and tonal balance? I've gotten so used to those features, they make almost everything sound better, there's clearly a difference when I turn them off. I prefer max delay, low intensity, and max tonal balance.
   
  Just thinking that it might be more "fair" to the Bifrost if you leave them off on the Stagedac.


----------



## judmarc

Quote:


ts0711 said:


> @judmarc
> What are your preferences set to on A+? I'm using the last release of the free version and was crippled by CPU overloads until I realized I had integer mode on. Once I took that off, it's been great. I only has able to get about 50 hours of run in before I had to leave for the week but the Bitfrost has really opened up.
> I can't wait to get back home.


   
  Go ahead and try A+, I think it's fixed some problems some folks were having with CPU overload signals.  Re integer, if you're now running Lion don't bother setting it.  Apple changed the driver in Lion and no player will run in integer mode on the new OS.
   
  If anyone's looking for more Audirvana Plus discussion I'd suggest another thread here, on Computer Audiophile, or at the forums on the Audirvana web site, rather than hijack this thread any further.
   
  Happy listening to the Bifrost.


----------



## redmonddad

To burn-in the DAC, should the amp be connected and powered on?  Or is it sufficient that the DAC is just actively engaged in converting bits?
   
  Jason has confirmed that my version of the Bifrost indeed suffers from an excessive amount of transformer hum and is shipping a replacement unit.  As far as I can see, my unit had an isolated problem and other folks shouldn't worry about it.  Anyway, my initial impression did not allow for burn-in as I was anxious to get the replacement.  With the new unit expected tomorrow, I'm anxious to allow the DAC to properly burn-in this time and would appreciate some guidance re: powering up the amp.
   
  BTW, Jason was not able to duplicate my issue with the USB drivers.  The Bifrost USB card was functional on their test systems but did not work with the 5 systems I tried here.  Likely I have a conflicting driver installed, but rather than mess with all that Schiit kindly offered to allow me to downgrade my DAC to the non-USB version.
   
  Thank you, Jason and Co,, for stellar customer support and making it perfectly acceptable to say that you got <duck> Schiity service </duck>.


----------



## judmarc

* 100 hours:*
   
  Having a DAC for the first time that will play higher res material, I ripped some 24/96 songs from a couple of DVD-A discs, Steely Dan's _Gaucho _and the Beatles _Love_ (the Cirque du Soleil soundtrack produced from Beatles songs and alternate takes by George Martin and his son).  The title track from _Gaucho_ was great, Fagen's voice whipcracking in all the parts where he's being irritated.  ("You're a nasty schoolboy with no place to go.  Try again tomorrow.")  George's vocals were beautiful on a couple of my favorite tracks from _Love_, an alternate take of _While My Guitar Gently Weeps_, and of course _Here Comes the Sun_.
   
  Then I put on Track 13, an alternate mostly acoustic take of _Strawberry Fields Forever_.  And that voice - _that voice_ - came from my speakers, the voice that's never had an equal, clearer and purer than I'd ever heard it before, John Winston Ono Lennon singing in my family room.  I couldn't have sat there more slack-jawed if someone had clubbed me between the eyes with a two-by-four.
   
  And that is why we spend our money and play obsessively with metal boxes and tubes and wires, sit in semi-darkened rooms alone when we could be having a beer and chatting up some girl - for moments like these.


----------



## ninjikiran

considering my system tilts towards rounded, the bifrost will more than likely not be very up front for me.
   
  Both the Lyr and LCD-2's are far from treble focused.  I guess with the right tubes you can shift the focus on the lyr as well but thats a diff story since I am using the GE tubes.
   
   
   
  Funny note, going back to a sound card after using an outboard dac for so long is like going from a Rolls Royce to a broken down jalopy that can't be fixed.


----------



## sferic

Thanks Judmark for the heads-up on Audirvana Plus. I've been using Audirvana for ages because nothing quite compared. The "Plus" does sound better! Happy to pay the $49. It's a steal.
   
  Ordered my Bifrost (non-USB) this weekend and got the ship notice Monday. I'm in CA so it will be here tomorrow. Currently using an Apogee Duet (firewire) so it will have a tough act to follow. 
   
  Current system: MacPro/ALAC (usually)/Audirvana>Duet>Lyr>LCD2 (rev2) or PS1000


----------



## blankdisc

This Schiit is seriously good! ^_^


----------



## ecohifi

Quote: 





redmonddad said:


> To burn-in the DAC, should the amp be connected and powered on?  Or is it sufficient that the DAC is just actively engaged in converting bits?


 

 No, dont think so,  but I'm going to confess,  I'm not a fan for "burning-in" solid state and I know many on this thread will think otherwise!!!!


----------



## ecohifi

Quote: 





olor1n said:


> I don't feel the dual wm8741 lack in detail in Audio-GD's implementation of it in the 10SE. Any compromise though would be justified in the price you pay and the fact it's a fully balanced setup (dac and amp). I'd love to compare the 10SE to a Lyr/Bifrost combo. At the moment, the Lyr is a bit redundant in my setup.


 

 olor1n,
  the bifrost was about to be released so I held back and kept my dosh in my pocket,  Like I said cant beat that for the price,  but the best thing is that it has analog resistor ladder, that is relay switch in the I/V, enough drive that eliminates  a preamp; PERFECT!  Be interested with Bifrost owners who already have a NFB2/3 to compare!!!


----------



## redmonddad

Quote: 





ecohifi said:


> No, dont think so,  but I'm going to confess,  I'm not a fan for "burning-in" solid state and I know many on this thread will think otherwise!!!!


 


 I know that this is a controversial topic.  I'll state the following...1) I do have an advanced degree in EE (but digital, not analog, and it's been almost 28 years since my semiconductor courses) and 2) I absolutely do *not* have a definitive answer to this.  I do know that semiconductors and dialectrics can change with use and it is often cumulative.  (In particular, electrostatic damage is cumulative, so while tolerant of some handling it can eventual lead to enough damage of the dialectic to cause failure).  Those changes can affect the linearity and stability of the solid state device.  Whether that is actually beneficial or detrimental to SQ is hard to predict and likely varies with design and, in some cases, individual units.  And some very clever designers create circuits that are robust against this drift.
   
  Sorry, not helpful in terms of burn-in vs. non-burn-in.  However, it does inform my tendency to allow burn in...if for no other reason to try to quickly get the SQ into the portion of the device's lifespan that is mostly stable.
   
  (Actually, I kind of regret posting this...it's pretty off topic and I apologize to the thread.  Can I delete this?)


----------



## ecohifi

Dont worry, ya know what, just burn it in to satisfy the others who are hardcore about it, otherwise they wont take your findings seriously!!!!


----------



## ecohifi

Quote: 





wberghofer said:


> Thank you for your kinds words, and thanks also to the other dudes liking my gear. But credit must be given to the product designers at Schiit Audio and Beyerdynamic for creating good looking and great sounding products. I’m just a customer
> 
> In case anybody is interested to see more from my multi-room setup: I posted some pictures in the computer audio forum here at Head-Fi.
> 
> Werner.


 

 wberghofer,
   
  I'm sure you're related to the gods, either Thor or the Titans, cause that picture with the view in the living room is not taken on Earth!!!!  LOL


----------



## Argo Duck

@redmonddad (burn-in) - no need to delete, it's sufficiently on topic and that was an interesting contribution. You can't delete anyway - that's reserved for the moderators - but you can edit your posts to blank. A short explanation is a good habit.
   
  @RazorJack - good point concerning the Stagedac. I will take that into account. Thanks.


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





ecohifi said:


> I didn't think that the WM chips will be as detailed as the EE mini max or the Bifrost!  So committed on the EE mini max +.


 

 Someone has obviously never heard a PS Audio PWD.


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





blankdisc said:


> This Schiit is seriously good! ^_^


 

 Got any comparisons to the Meridian?  Link if I missed them please.


----------



## ecohifi

Quote: 





anaxilus said:


> Someone has obviously never heard a PS Audio PWD.


 


 The PS Audio Dac or music server is the most advanced unit money can buy, has every known output like I2S, balanced out and can replaced a preamp, *why would you pay 6000 euro for a dac *that is based on a WM when there are dacs like the bifrost , 9018 Sabre,  Audio gd 10es  and Teddy Pardo on a budget like mine  Youre right, i haven't heard one and probably never will.  To listen to one I have to sell my house, to own one sell the wife and kids and rob a bank!
  If you have heard or own one, I am jealous, just letting you know in advance!!!  LOL


----------



## agisthos

Quote: 





judmarc said:


> And that is why we spend our money and play obsessively with metal boxes and tubes and wires, sit in semi-darkened rooms alone when we could be having a beer and chatting up some girl - for moments like these.


 

 So true and accurate description of this hobby, or some would say, obsession.


----------



## pseudohippy

Has anyone had to sign when receiving their Bifrost from FedEx or will they leave it at the door?  I missed my LCD-2 when they needed a signature from FedEx. I cant really stay home easily today but if it requires a sig I might anyway.


----------



## sridhar3

Quote:


ecohifi said:


> *why would you pay 6000 euro for a dac *that is based on a WM when there are dacs like the bifrost , 9018 Sabre,  Audio gd 10es  and Teddy Pardo


 

 I'd argue that implementation matters more than which chip is used.  The Rega DAC uses WM chips and sounds phenomenal as well.


----------



## ecohifi

Quote: 





pseudohippy said:


> Has anyone had to sign when receiving their Bifrost from FedEx or will they leave it at the door?  I missed my LCD-2 when they needed a signature from FedEx. I cant really stay home easily today but if it requires a sig I might anyway.


 


  With Fedex you must show ID and signed for the package I have never known Fedex to leave a package without a signiture.  If no one is home you must pick up the package acording to the details on the card they leave behind.  They are more secure than most.


----------



## xxhaxx

Quote: 





ecohifi said:


> With Fedex you must show ID and signed for the package I have never known Fedex to leave a package without a signiture.  If no one is home you must pick up the package acording to the details on the card they leave behind.  They are more secure than most.


 


  Not for me. My bifrost was just sitting there after I got back from class


----------



## pseudohippy

Quote: 





ecohifi said:


> With Fedex you must show ID and signed for the package I have never known Fedex to leave a package without a signiture.  If no one is home you must pick up the package acording to the details on the card they leave behind.  They are more secure than most.


 


  Well that stinks. I already came in to the office. Lots harder to escape now but I probably will hi tail it out of here anyhow.


----------



## Elysian

Quote: 





ecohifi said:


> The PS Audio Dac or music server is the most advanced unit money can buy,


 

 There are a lot of units much more expensive and advanced then the PerfectWave DAC, particularly depending on what you're trying to accomplish.
   
  Not sure why people get so hung-up on chips and keep ignoring that implementation (including programming the DSP in a low-level language) is what you're paying for, not the chip.  Even for $5000+ DACs, the DAC chips don't cost much more than a pepperoni pizza.  For some of the more advanced DACs, like the Berkeley Alpha, you're paying not only for the BOM but for all the software R&D that went into it.


----------



## sridhar3

Quote:


elysian said:


> Not sure why people get so hung-up on chips and keep ignoring that implementation is what you're paying for, not the chip.


 
   
  x2.


----------



## ecohifi

Quote: 





sridhar3 said:


> Quote:
> 
> I'd argue that implementation matters more than which chip is used.  The Rega DAC uses WM chips and sounds phenomenal as well.


 


 +1 agreed, implementation is a key factor so to do this you build it yourself right, like I have done with my amps and speakers.  Only issue is that I cant solder chips this small safely, so the next best thing is a buffalo 3 from TPA.  Then again I cant access the site quick enought to secure an order! slow internet, the providers in Melbourne are woeful where I live, 12km out from the CBD and the only service available: 3G.
   
  Ladies & Guys, I didn't say there was anything wrong with WM chips,  its just at the time I made a decision on  the EE mini max + because it was around the corner to be release and I always wanted a Sabre 9018 32 bit chip.  If WM came up with a 32Bit chip it would definately wind me up like the Bifrost. 
   
  Believe it or not the latest sony bluray range have a WM 8524 chip in it.  This may not be the top of the range but it has a bias pump so no output cap required, it actually sounds pretty good considering that the s580 is $200AU.  So I opt for a different chip to get a taste of what other manufacture has to offer, and believe me the Sony would give the EE mini max a run at its price point even though it will never reach it in SQ!


----------



## ecohifi

Quote: 





elysian said:


> There are a lot of units much more expensive and advanced then the PerfectWave DAC, particularly depending on what you're trying to accomplish.
> 
> Not sure why people get so hung-up on chips and keep ignoring that implementation (including programming the DSP in a low-level language) is what you're paying for, not the chip.  Even for $5000+ DACs, the DAC chips don't cost much more than a pepperoni pizza.  For some of the more advanced DACs, like the Berkeley Alpha, you're paying not only for the BOM but for all the software R&D that went into it.


 


 Im on a shoe string budget, cant afford $5000.  And I dont think this thread was to discuss $5000 dacs?


----------



## ecohifi

Quote: 





xxhaxx said:


> Not for me. My bifrost was just sitting there after I got back from class


 


  1st I've heard of that,  must be different for different countries!


----------



## Elysian

Quote: 





ecohifi said:


> Im on a shoe string budget, cant afford $5000.  And I dont think this thread was to discuss $5000 dacs?


 

 No, what I'm saying is that those $5k+ DACs use the same DAC chips that <$300 DACs use.  Some of the other components may be more expensive like Vishay foil resistors, but the DAC chips are the same.
   
  If the only difference came from the chips, it would be silly to buy a $1k+ source.  It might be silly for other reasons, but generalizing a DAC's sound signature based on the chip it uses is not a productive exercise.  I've heard various ESS9018/16 and WM implementations and it varies quite a bit based on the developer and their implementation.


----------



## pseudohippy

Quote: 





ecohifi said:


> 1st I've heard of that,  must be different for different countries!


 


  Just got home and sure enough it was already sitting on the doorstep. Im surprised they made you sign for yours, but like you said maybe its different in different countries.
   
  Now Im a moron, I cant find the drivers on the Schiit site. Please help lol.


----------



## leesure

Quote: 





ecohifi said:


> 1st I've heard of that,  must be different for different countries!


 

 US based here...FedEx left mine on my front porch.


----------



## pseudohippy

What is wrong with me, where the heck on the site do I find these drivers. So far I cant get this working.


----------



## Misterrogers

I'm wondering myself - poked around and couldn't find them either. May Schiit has to provide a link.
   
  Quote: 





pseudohippy said:


> What is wrong with me, where the heck on the site do I find these drivers. So far I cant get this working.


----------



## leesure

https://schiit.com/drivers/


----------



## pseudohippy

Quote: 





leesure said:


> https://schiit.com/drivers/


 


  Thank you so very much kind Sir!
   
  EDIT: Everything is working great. So far sounds good to me. Brighter overall than my MSII+ for sure. Other than that I cant really say anything yet.


----------



## bcart180

Quote: 





pseudohippy said:


> Thank you so very much kind Sir!
> 
> EDIT: Everything is working great. So far sounds good to me. Brighter overall than my MSII+ for sure. Other than that I cant really say anything yet.


 

 I went from a MSII+ to the Bifrost as well.  My initial impressions are great!


----------



## ecohifi

Quote: 





			
				Elysian said:
			
		

> No, what I'm saying is that those $5k+ DACs use the same DAC chips that <$300 DACs use.  Some of the other components may be more expensive like Vishay foil resistors, but the DAC chips are the same.
> 
> If the only difference came from the chips, it would be silly to buy a $1k+ source.  It might be silly for other reasons, but generalizing a DAC's sound signature based on the chip it uses is not a productive exercise.  I've heard various ESS9018/16 and WM implementations and it varies quite a bit based on the developer and their implementation.


 

 +1 agree with what you have said, but I'm not in the market for $3K> dacs.  If the Bifrost came out 5-10 yrs earlier you would probably have had to pay those figure for it.  Technology is an investment of no return especially in this changing dac landscape. There is a market in the $3k> and there are manufacturers that will cater for it always.  As time goes on some of these SOTA products with SOTA prices are finding there way in the $500 budgets items. 
   
  I was fixated with the hype of military matching transistors and semis etc  SOTA products 20-25yrs ago, so I bought SOTA what I could afford.  I had a rig that costed me at least $20kAU and I still have a Turntable that cost $6k, to this day, this is in the era when CD was about to be released.  My cousin introduced me to a DIY rig that was built with everyday average run of the mill stuff that was on a chopping block.  The parts that where used were available thru Dick Smith or Jaycar nothing special.  This stuff put my $20k system to shame and I was embarrassed for owning this stuff so I sold most of it and took the advise to build my own but with a particlar design.  I never looked back!  That is why Im monitoring this thread I have no desire to purchase maga dollar SOTA gear,  I may have the desire to audition them if given the chance. Like ya said generalisation on dacs is not productive and implementation matter!   But what chance do I have when you're in the loaction where you physically cant!  So you have to rely on other people impressions!
  .
  Like I said, I build it if I can and reseach it as much as possible but given the sizes of these chips I'm able to do this safely cause I dont have this gear to do so!


----------



## M-13

Impressions of the Bifrost compared to the MS+ would be greatly appreciated. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
  Quote: 





bcart180 said:


> I went from a MSII+ to the Bifrost as well.  My initial impressions are great!


----------



## pseudohippy

Quote: 





m-13 said:


> Impressions of the Bifrost compared to the MS+ would be greatly appreciated.


 


  If you make it to the Seattle meet on Jan 21 your more than welcome to compare the Bifrost to the MSII+ all you like. Not the best place but you should pick up some generalities quite easy.


----------



## M-13

Sweet! Only problem is that I'll probably have my Bifrost by then. I'll probably be looking at the PerfectWave DAC and the Liquid Fire then. Is constant upgrading a sin? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  Quote: 





pseudohippy said:


> If you make it to the Seattle meet on Jan 21 your more than welcome to compare the Bifrost to the MSII+ all you like. Not the best place but you should pick up some generalities quite easy.


----------



## estreeter

Quote: 





bcart180 said:


> I went from a MSII+ to the Bifrost as well.  My initial impressions are great!


 


  Good to hear, but it would be great if you could elaborate further. FWIW, Mike at Headfonia consistently uses the MSII+ as his 'reference' for budget DACs, and that included the $500 DACPort. I know that many here want the BiFrost compared with 2K DACs in elaborate cases etc, but I'm more interested in hearing comparisons with DACs like the aforementioned - neither MSII+ nor DACPort (or its $50 cheaper LX sibling) put form over function. Keep those impressions coming.


----------



## M-13

Yeah... I had the MS+, DACport LX, and even borrowed my friend's Nuforce HDP, and none of those DACs had a noticeable improvement over my E7, which was dissapointing to say the least. There were differences of course, but I could not say one was better than the other, just different. I'm hoping the Bifrost will be a clear and obvious upgrade. So far, upgrading amps, tubes, headphones have been the more obvious "upgrade"
  
  Quote: 





estreeter said:


> Good to hear, but it would be great if you could elaborate further. FWIW, Mike at Headfonia consistently uses the MSII+ as his 'reference' for budget DACs, and that included the $500 DACPort. I know that many here want the BiFrost compared with 2K DACs in elaborate cases etc, but I'm more interested in hearing comparisons with DACs like the aforementioned - neither MSII+ nor DACPort (or its $50 cheaper LX sibling) put form over function. Keep those impressions coming.


----------



## judmarc

*120 hours:*
   
  Doing a couple of things today - going back through the music collection to hear old favorites with the new DAC, and listening to high-res things for the first time.  
   
  I heard something pretty amazing to me when listening to a rip of the Beatles' _Love _DVD-A recorded in 24/96.  The version of _While My Guitar Gently Weeps _on this recording is an alternate acoustic take.  I noticed during the first few acoustic guitar notes that _I could hear the notes resonating in the guitar body _just as you can if someone is playing an acoustic guitar in the room with you.


----------



## 45longcolt

Hey Judmarc - how do you rip DVD-As? I've got a few I'd love to listen to, but haven't figured out how to get them into the Imac. Hints appreciated.
   
  With almost 60 hours on my Bifrost,I'm enjoying it quite a bit. I would have to say that while the bass is cleanly presented, there's just a little bit less at the very bottom end. This is especially noticable over speakers, where there's also a subwoofer.
   
  As far as "thin" or "harsh," I don't hear that on phones or speakers. This is true even on things like cymbal crashes or horn notes that can really startle me sometimes. Upfront, yeah; overdone, no. But if you don't want to hear everything, this may not be the DAC for you. It ain't gonna sugarcoat a bad recording or file.
   
  And like Judmarc, I find it easier to hear details of the mix, and of individual instruments. Which I like, but some may find a case of too much information.


----------



## Megalith

I just received my Bifrost today, but I'm not sure what to think.
   
  Compared to the DAC in my Audiophile 192, everything sounds much less lifeless now---it's as if the bass has been sucked dry. While everything seems to sound cleaner with more notable separation, I'm also hearing a very harsh boost in the treble. Dynamic range also seems significantly compressed.
   
  I don't know if my Audiophile 192's S/PDIF output has anything to do with it. (AFAIK, its output is bitperfect.)


----------



## M-13

That S/PDIF out should have nothing to do with it unless it's malfunctioning. Many here have said the Bifrost improves with burn-in. Please keep us updated as to whether this is the case or not.
  
  Quote: 





megalith said:


> I just received my Bifrost today, but I'm not sure what to think.
> 
> Compared to the DAC in my Audiophile 192, everything sounds much less lifeless now---it's as if the bass has been sucked dry. While everything seems to sound cleaner with more notable separation, I'm also hearing a very harsh boost in the treble. Dynamic range also seems significantly compressed.
> 
> I don't know if my Audiophile 192's S/PDIF output has anything to do with it. (AFAIK, its output is bitperfect.)


----------



## leesure

Didn't think this was the place to put comparisons between complete sub-$1K rigs...Schiit Bifrost/Lyr vs. Audio-GD/Bottlehead, so I stared a new thread here:
   
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/579578/a-comparison-review-of-2-1000-value-rigs-schiit-vs-a-gd-bottlehead#post_7880895
   
  in case you want to read.


----------



## ninjikiran

Give it a bit, going from sound card to outbaord dac takes a bit of an adjustment period.  But going back to a sound card after adjusting to the dac will probably be much harder once you get used to what things are more closer supposed to sound like.
   
  Otherwise you might to look for something with a warmer output if it still doesn't meet your tastes or go back to the audiophile if it still doesn't meet your tastes.  If we were all the same life would be boring~
  
  Quote: 





megalith said:


> I just received my Bifrost today, but I'm not sure what to think.
> 
> Compared to the DAC in my Audiophile 192, everything sounds much less lifeless now---it's as if the bass has been sucked dry. While everything seems to sound cleaner with more notable separation, I'm also hearing a very harsh boost in the treble. Dynamic range also seems significantly compressed.
> 
> I don't know if my Audiophile 192's S/PDIF output has anything to do with it. (AFAIK, its output is bitperfect.)


----------



## 188479

Quote: 





> But if you don't want to hear everything, this may not be the DAC for you. It ain't gonna sugarcoat a bad recording or file.


 
  X2
   
  I was just thinking about how poorly recorded some of my CD's are...and how fantastic some others are.  It's been a lot of fun going through all of my music now that the Bifrost is hooked up!


----------



## judmarc

Quote:


45longcolt said:


> Hey Judmarc - how do you rip DVD-As? I've got a few I'd love to listen to, but haven't figured out how to get them into the Imac. Hints appreciated.


 
   
  I'm using DVD Audio Extractor, which has a free trial available for Win and OS X.  http://www.dvdae.com/  On the lookout for something with similar capabilities and no license fee that runs on OS X.
   
  If you don't have the capability of ripping from DVD-A, some of the same material, as well as other high-res stuff, is available at HD Tracks.  Use caution, though, as their quality control has been reported to be highly variable.  There may be threads here about various HD Tracks offerings; I haven't checked.  There are extensive threads at the Computer Audiophile forums.


----------



## Butler

megalith said:


> I'm also hearing a very harsh boost in the treble. Dynamic range also seems significantly compressed.




People have said that this should go away with burn in, and I really hope that's the case. The last thing I need is more harsh trebles on the W5000's...


----------



## ninjikiran

I would just go with different headphones if their treble is not to your liking.  I tried the ultrasone 500 series headphone and couldn't last an entire day before returning those suckers


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





m-13 said:


> Yeah... I had the MS+, DACport LX, and even borrowed my friend's Nuforce HDP, and none of those DACs had a noticeable improvement over my E7


 

 Just goes to show different ears and gears.  The E7 is not even in the same class as the DACPort LX for me.  When I hear 3-4 DACs such as those offering little to no audible benefit over the E7 I tend to suspect some other bottleneck in the chain.


----------



## internethandle

Quote: 





megalith said:


> I just received my Bifrost today, but I'm not sure what to think.
> 
> Compared to the DAC in my Audiophile 192, everything sounds much less lifeless now---it's as if the bass has been sucked dry. While everything seems to sound cleaner with more notable separation, I'm also hearing a very harsh boost in the treble. Dynamic range also seems significantly compressed.
> 
> I don't know if my Audiophile 192's S/PDIF output has anything to do with it. (AFAIK, its output is bitperfect.)


 


  I know other users are saying that your SPDIF output on your soundcard shouldn't be the issue, but IMO it's worth playing around with. There's even another user on here who made a separate thread about how his iPod dock's SPDIF out and his motherboard's sounded significantly different to him (he preferred the motherboard's by a large margin) with his Bifrost. At the very least do some Googling or poking around with the M-Audio soundcard to ensure it isn't somehow processing the audio data before sending out the SPDIF signal. If you can, however, try another SPDIF out (if your motherboard has one, for instance - mine does for my Gigabyte motherboard), or, if possible, the Toslink and/or USB inputs and compare them. You could even poke around with some cMP site suggestions (this is a site/project started out of Computer Audio Asylum, a separate forum, which involves building a PC purely for audio playback, kind of like Computer Audiophile.com's "CAPS" server project - anyway, there's a lot of suggestions on the cMP site, even though they're specific to Windows XP, that you can fool around with in any version of Windows to optimize SQ - some are more controversial than others, mind you - lots of registry edits, service disabling, that sort of thing), specifically this page on soundcard settings in Windows, like checking your card has a dedicated interrupt (IRQ): http://www.cicsmemoryplayer.com/index.php?n=CMP.10Soundcard - not necessary, though, as I doubt that's really the overall problem. I also concur with the suggestions to allow for some more burn-in, though - download good ole' Pink Noise or something similar (you can grab Pink Noise in WAV format here: http://www.burninwave.com/), set it on loop in your player of choice, and let the Bifrost run for awhile, then compare. Good luck!


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





m-13 said:


> That S/PDIF out should have nothing to do with it unless it's malfunctioning.


 


  S/PDIF implementations *DO *matter.  People hung up on overly simplistic notions of 1's and 0's can believe whatever they want.  I got into digital expecting to hear no variations between digital sources as they are all binary like many think.  Upon actual listening, that turned out to be a rude awakening.  I'm actually finding more sonic variation between digital transports than using simple analog output.


----------



## Butler

ninjikiran said:


> I would just go with different headphones if their treble is not to your liking.




I have them modded which has addressed their fatiguing trebles and was hoping to unmod them because supposedly the bifrost+asgard is a good synergy. We'll see I suppose.


----------



## ninjikiran

Well I am not using my high end cans on the lyr/bifrost atm but they definitely bring my 770pros to a different level.  The synergy was better than I expected with them thats for sure.  No noticeable treble peaks with them at all,.  And when I say noticeable my ears don't want to bleed yet.


----------



## ecohifi

Quote: 





anaxilus said:


> S/PDIF implementations *DO *matter.  People hung up on overly simplistic notions of 1's and 0's can believe whatever they want.  I got into digital expecting to hear no variations between digital sources as they are all binary like many think.  Upon actual listening, that turned out to be a rude awakening.  I'm actually finding more sonic variation between digital transports than using simple analog output.


 

 I am discovering this as I change between different digital transport(CD)  but analog out such as buffers makes a huge difference.


----------



## estreeter

Quote: 





anaxilus said:


> Just goes to show different ears and gears.  The E7 is not even in the same class as the DACPort LX for me.  When I hear 3-4 DACs such as those offering little to no audible benefit over the E7 I tend to suspect some other bottleneck in the chain.


 

 +1, and I'm thinking it comes down to phones. One of the things I look for in a pair of cans is something that will scale with improvements in source/amp - for example, I love my KSC-75s, but they are never going to justify buying more expensive kit than the DAP I already own.


----------



## Megalith

Ah, seems that some of my problems did involve the S/PDIF (Audiophile 192). I was initially listening with foobar set to 0dB, and it wasn't until later after monitoring the control panel that I realized there was quite a bit of clipping going on. I have it set to -15dB now and, while I have to turn up my amp (Valhalla) up all the way, things are starting to sound natural again.
   
  The sound still seems very recessed, though, and reminds me of my HD650s when they were only being driven by my soundcard and not getting enough juice. I'm starting to think the surge protector I have everything plugged into is the problem. It takes me back to when I was experimenting with power filters and fancy surge protectors in my HT, and they absolutely ruined the sound, taking away all dynamics and setting a huge veil on everything.
   
  The sound seemed to be fine when I was just using my soundcard's DAC with the Valhalla, though (was listening with foobar set to 0dB, with everything connected to the same surge protector). I guess its possible that the additional load of the bifrost is making the power strip choke.


----------



## ninjikiran

Doubt its a problem, shouldnt be a case over spdif.
   
  Something is wrong as you should not be getting those problems in the first place.


----------



## judmarc

Quote:


megalith said:


> Ah, seems that some of my problems did involve the S/PDIF (Audiophile 192). I was initially listening with foobar set to 0dB, and it wasn't until later after monitoring the control panel that I realized there was quite a bit of clipping going on. I have it set to -15dB now and, while I have to turn up my amp (Valhalla) up all the way, things are starting to sound natural again.
> 
> The sound still seems very recessed


 

  Adjusting foobar to -15dB means the stream isn't bit perfect any longer.  0dB should be right, odd to hear there's clipping occurring.  Sorry I can't help further.


----------



## ninjikiran

There is definitely something wrong.  I would connect the bifrost to a motherboard spdif, or USB or toslink and see if the issue persist.  Rule out the bifrost first.


----------



## M-13

Yeah... I was very confused about this too, since the E7 seems like such an obvious bottleneck. I thought the DACport would make an obvious/noticeable difference. I even burned in the DACport for several days, hoping the situation would improve (same with the MS, and MS+). I'm always mindful of expectation bias. I usually do blindfolded ABX testing with tracks I'm familiar with and then with materials I'm not familiar with. Always lossless of course. But honestly upgradig the DAC had very minimal impact on the sound quality. I'm using the Lyr, HE-500, HD650, Q701, D2000, and Telefunken 60s tubes for the rest of my chain. I was able to correctly identify DACs using tracks I was familiar with, I always knew which one was the E7 compared to the others like DACport, HDP, MS+, but on songs I did not know, it was difficult to say which was offering more sound quality, during the blindfold AB testing.
   
  Just my experience with changing out a super low end DAC for several different mid-fi DACs. For me the money is better spent on tubes or saving up money for the Liquid Fire. I'm hoping I'll read something here that convinces me that the Bifrost will make a huge/immediate impact to my chain and that it will be so obvious I won't have to ABX test or anything like that. Kind of like when I upgrade tubes, amps or Headphones.
   
  So the difference between your E7 and DACport was huge? like noticeable within 10 seconds for even songs you're not familiar with? Can I ask what the rest of your chain was?
  
  Quote: 





anaxilus said:


> Just goes to show different ears and gears.  The E7 is not even in the same class as the DACPort LX for me.  When I hear 3-4 DACs such as those offering little to no audible benefit over the E7 I tend to suspect some other bottleneck in the chain.


----------



## Laforgue

My 2 cents:  I find the Bifrost very realistic and very revealing. The bass is tight, so you won't hear the flabby boominess that some ears are accustomed, but Scott La Faro never sounded so good. The double bass sounds exactly right, with the added dimension that you can hear all his sliding fret work and slapping strings. The tympanis in Gergiev's Rite of Spring rocked the room, as they should.  You are definitely going to hear some piercing treble, but that's just like live music.  Hit a high note on a trumpet or violin in a live venue, and it _is_ piercing.  I'm in awe of the Bifrost.  I listened to Prokofiev's Violin Concerto 1 by Vengerov and it was a revelation.  For the first time, I heard everything the orchestra was doing.  I've also noticed audible tape hiss on some high resolution downloads (Rachel Podger from Linn Records).  What I especially like is the roundness and decay of notes. As it has been noted, the soundstage is superb.  The Bifrost is transparent but still very musical.  At $450, I have no complaints.


----------



## 45longcolt

Judmarc, thanks for the tip - I'll try that program.
   
  Music Direct's latest sale flyer had the Nordost Baldur interconnect on sale. Just couldn't resist the Nordic theme, so I now have Bifrost to Baldur to Lyr. And the urge to play Ride of the Valkyries incessantly.
   
  Of course this means I'm using a $250 pair of wires between a $350 DAC and a $450 amp. Yes, I need help. And a second job.
   
  And yes, the cable set does bring an audible improvement. Further clarity, as well as getting rid of the last vestige of anything approaching edge-iness. Worth the money? Well, YMMV but I'm keeping it. Er, them.
   
  Also bought a fancy wall outlet, which made an infinitesimal-if-any difference. Not worth it, IMO. But you never know until you try...


----------



## sling5s

I have had the Bifrost for about a week now.  I'm using the Bifrost paired with Asgard listening with Grado RS1i.  Later I will listen to it with my JH16pro.
  But I can confidently say that in terms of these qualities: clarity, detail, openess, soundstage and resolving power, it surpasses all my previous budget dacs: Pico dac, Yulong D100, Nuforce HDP, Music Streamer II+, and Audio GD NFB-3. It's like my window into the music just got more clearer. Pretty impressed.


----------



## caracara08

placed an order finally for this. been using the muse nos dac until now.  will be paired with a csp2+ + t1/hd650.  i had almost just went cheaper and got the hrt at 150 but decided to wait for reviews on this one.  my last dac was the minimax EE so im hoping it will compete with that.  
   
  i decided given my situation, its smarter to save money than to get it sooner so i placed an order with their retailer.  they wont get them in until december but right now saving that 40$ in shipping and tax is a bigger deal to me than getting it within the next couplw eeks.


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





m-13 said:


> Yeah... I was very confused about this too, since the E7 seems like such an obvious bottleneck. I thought the DACport would make an obvious/noticeable difference. I even burned in the DACport for several days, hoping the situation would improve (same with the MS, and MS+). I'm always mindful of expectation bias. I usually do blindfolded ABX testing with tracks I'm familiar with and then with materials I'm not familiar with. Always lossless of course. But honestly upgradig the DAC had very minimal impact on the sound quality. I'm using the Lyr, HE-500, HD650, Q701, D2000, and Telefunken 60s tubes for the rest of my chain. I was able to correctly identify DACs using tracks I was familiar with, I always knew which one was the E7 compared to the others like DACport, HDP, MS+, but on songs I did not know, it was difficult to say which was offering more sound quality, during the blindfold AB testing.
> 
> Just my experience with changing out a super low end DAC for several different mid-fi DACs. For me the money is better spent on tubes or saving up money for the Liquid Fire. I'm hoping I'll read something here that convinces me that the Bifrost will make a huge/immediate impact to my chain and that it will be so obvious I won't have to ABX test or anything like that. Kind of like when I upgrade tubes, amps or Headphones.
> 
> So the difference between your E7 and DACport was huge? like noticeable within 10 seconds for even songs you're not familiar with? Can I ask what the rest of your chain was?


 

 The biggest difference is with the DACPort LX which is a step up over the non LX, but still the regular DACPort is better than the E7 for sure.  I don't AB using tracks I don't know, only tracks I know intimately.  That's how you discern between gear in an accurate and comprehensive fashion.  I use the UERM and my Leckerton UHA6S comparing the E7 and DACPort LX via USB.  Quite easy to discern the difference for me in that chain.  Listening to music you don't know only proves you don't know the music not that there is no difference between DACs.  I'm not sure what sort of expectation you would have by doing such a comparison.  
   
  Your bottleneck is the Lyr, it's powerful and can be nice sounding if you like it's signature but it has weak resolving power for an amp.  Schiit even admitted that detail was not a priority in designing their amps, voicing was.  BiFrost is different altogether though tone and voicing was definitely a priority, you can hear it, it is still quite resolving for the price as a DAC should be.  I'm guessing you didn't try the 701 from the DACPort directly w/o the Lyr and the E7 also.  That should be obvious in listening.  The E7 is barely an amp at all, in fact it should have that attribute stripped from it's title IMO.


----------



## ecohifi

Quote: 





caracara08 said:


> placed an order finally for this. been using the muse nos dac until now.  will be paired with a csp2+ + t1/hd650.  i had almost just went cheaper and got the hrt at 150 but decided to wait for reviews on this one.  my last dac was the minimax EE so im hoping it will compete with that.
> 
> i decided given my situation, its smarter to save money than to get it sooner so i placed an order with their retailer.  they wont get them in until december but right now saving that 40$ in shipping and tax is a bigger deal to me than getting it within the next couplw eeks.


 

 how does the EE min max compared to the muse nos dac and which do you prefer?


----------



## caracara08

Quote: 





ecohifi said:


> how does the EE min max compared to the muse nos dac and which do you prefer?


 


  i didnt have them at the same time so its hard to say.  i would still have the EE but needed to pay rent while unemployed.  the muse is a capable dac but the EE (100% from memory) sounded better to me.  smoother and engaging.  is it worth the price diff? to some it is. i happen to be in that some.  i plan to do some a/b with t he bifrost when it gets here mid december.


----------



## sampson_smith

Good job. Looks like we have another Bill Evans fan on the boards. I love him and Scott together-- so sadly fleeting a partnership-- especially.
  Quote: 





laforgue said:


> My 2 cents:  I find the Bifrost very realistic and very revealing. The bass is tight, so you won't hear the flabby boominess that some ears are accustomed, but Scott La Faro never sounded so good. The double bass sounds exactly right, with the added dimension that you can hear all his sliding fret work and slapping strings. The tympanis in Gergiev's Rite of Spring rocked the room, as they should.  You are definitely going to hear some piercing treble, but that's just like live music.  Hit a high note on a trumpet or violin in a live venue, and it _is_ piercing.  I'm in awe of the Bifrost.  I listened to Prokofiev's Violin Concerto 1 by Vengerov and it was a revelation.  For the first time, I heard everything the orchestra was doing.  I've also noticed audible tape hiss on some high resolution downloads (Rachel Podger from Linn Records).  What I especially like is the roundness and decay of notes. As it has been noted, the soundstage is superb.  The Bifrost is transparent but still very musical.  At $450, I have no complaints.


----------



## internethandle

@sampson_smith - nice av. New album is one of the first albums I used to do listening tests with my Bifrost - sounds fantastic!


----------



## sorue

i'm not surprised many people have trouble hearing differences between DACs when they're using headphones. Try them on good speakers and you'll be in for a treat.


----------



## petemac110

Quote: 





sorue said:


> i'm not surprised many people have trouble hearing differences between DACs when they're using headphones. Try them on good speakers and you'll be in for a treat.


 


  Yes indeed!!


----------



## Maxvla

Odd, I find headphones easier to tell differences than speakers in general.


----------



## ecohifi

Quote: 





petemac110 said:


> Yes indeed!!


 

 Depends on the headphones!!!!


----------



## petemac110

Quote: 





ecohifi said:


> Depends on the headphones!!!!


 


  Of course. Just like speakers, there are good ones and excellent ones.


----------



## Megalith

I have my Bifrost connected to the S/PDIF on my motherboard now (didn't really realize it was there).
   
  The sound is much, much better. I'm pretty sure something is wrong with the S/PDIF on the Audiophile 192; everything sounded overdriven and a bit distorted in comparison to what the motherboard is giving me.


----------



## Maxvla

No difference with the optical cable, still getting some light noise so it must be my comp/onboard sound. I'll figure out what step to take next.


----------



## ninjikiran

if your getting noise through optical that souinds the same as spdif something is wrong....  at that point I would think the problem is in the bifrost.


----------



## Argo Duck

Just a quick update on my listening with the Bifrost and MiniMax DACs, following from my post of last Tuesday/Wednesday.
   
  I have yet to bring the Meier Stagedac into play - this is about two days away. I have also yet to bring in the Lyr. The Stax Lambda Pro I will bring in at the end.
   
  1. The brightness I noted in the first hour was entirely gone (with my LCD2 rev 1) at 36 hours burn in. Thinking this might be because of the slightly dark LCD2, I checked with my Beyer T1 at 48 hours, same result.
  2. With the brightness gone, there is less sense of "attack". What remains is clarity. I will have more to say about this in a few days.
  3. Gone too is the slightly "relentless" quality. On the contrary, the Bifrost is a pleasure to listen to.
  4. There are differences between Bifrost and MiniMax, which I will report in a few more days when I've tested and confirmed with more material.
   
  FWIW, my subjective assessment of overall SQ at this stage compared to the MiniMax: Bifrost is a _good_, even _very good_ DAC.


----------



## internethandle

I've had my Bifrost for well over a week now, and probably have logged at least 100 hours of burn-in with pink noise, ISOTek Burn-In CD FLACs + general listening. I'll echo what pretty much everyone has said in that the Bifrost really remarkably changes with burn-in, so it's pretty much essential to forming an overall opinion of its sound signature, IMO. It is indeed much less brutal/relentless after burn-in - on lossy material, for instance, the Bifrost would just grab all the lossiness by the throat and thrust it in your face - the SQ was not necessarily harsh pre burn-in with this sort of material - the Bifrost would still resolve enough to not bring on listening fatigue - it just was painfully obvious. Now, with the same material, A/B comparisons with FLAC/WAV/ALAC etc. and something like an MP3 will still be obvious, but the lossy material is much more rounded around the edges, its deficiencies more obvious in its lack of extra information or detail for the Bifrost to work with than any graininess or harshness. I was even listening to a 192kbps MP3 the other day (I know, I know) and the Bifrost somehow was managing to make this particular track sound as dynamic as possible, placing the electric bass in different areas of the soundstage that I'd never heard it before (indeed, I couldn't even pick out that instrument at all before the Bifrost, it just would just get lost) - it again just lacked clarity for those particular bass notes due to the lossy nature of the recording, but still somehow was doing as much as it could with what it had to work with. 
   
  Anyway, I'm really, really happy with my Bifrost. I'll try and post a more thoughtful, detailed review/impression once I get around the 200 hour mark or so, and when someone makes a dedicated impression thread, I suppose.


----------



## Emulator

Hi everyone,
   
  I have been following this thread for couple of months, and I really like what I am reading about the Bifrost. Actually, I believe that only thing keeping me away for pulling the trigger on Bifrost+Asgard is the Bifrost clicking issue mentioned in several posts.
   
  Can anyone please explain this in more detail. Is this a click in audio signal, or mechanical click in the unit? When does it occur? How annoying is it? I am using iTunes on PC and will use Bifrost's USB input. When should I expect clicking in this scenario?
   
  Regards,
  E


----------



## xxhaxx

Quote: 





emulator said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I have been following this thread for couple of months, and I really like what I am reading about the Bifrost. Actually, I believe that only thing keeping me away for pulling the trigger on Bifrost+Asgard is the Bifrost clicking issue mentioned in several posts.
> 
> ...


 
   
  It is a mechanical click, but it seems to only occur when I use optical. From previous post iirc that when you change track some computer would disconnect and reconnect the optical thus causing the clicking noise. Not sure if it would occur with USB


----------



## pseudohippy

Ive been using it with only USB for about a week and not a single clicking noise. One day Ill test with optical and see if I can hear what people are talking about. Ive listened to music in all different bit rates from flac to some not so good stuff.


----------



## internethandle

I can confirm that there's no click for me via USB, either. The Bifrost makes a clicking noise upon turning on or off, that's about it. There's also a bit of a "pop" if you exit Foobar without pausing or stopping a track. For those using Foobar with the Bifrost and experiencing clicks between tracks, try reducing the gaps between tracks/fade-in by going to File -> Preferences -> Advanced -> Playback -> and change "Fade on seek (ms)", "Fade out (ms)", and "Fade on pause (ms)" to "0" and restart Foobar to see if the problem is eased/eliminated. Just a hunch.


----------



## Megalith

I get annoying clicks/pops every time I double click on a new song in foobar, though it seems that has to do with my motherboard's S/PDIF out.


----------



## sferic

Anyone have a Bifrost connected to optical out on a Mac Pro? Any clicking issues, etc.? I was actually psyched about using optical so as not to have a ground connection from DAC to Computer, now concerned.


----------



## Traddad

sampson_smith said:


> Good job. Looks like we have another Bill Evans fan on the boards. I love him and Scott together-- so sadly fleeting a partnership-- especially.




+ 1+ Love the synergy of LaFaro and Evans. My favorite bassist in a trio or quartet. Scratch that. Favorite ever.


----------



## Anathallo

I have no clicking noises with both USB and Optical off my mobo unless I turn off or change input on the Bifrost.
   
  Using WinAmp with Windows 7 and everything is V0 VBR/320kbps MP3 or FLAC.


----------



## Argo Duck

MacMini - optical - Bifrost here. No issues; none.
  
  Quote: 





sferic said:


> Anyone have a Bifrost connected to optical out on a Mac Pro? Any clicking issues, etc.? I was actually psyched about using optical so as not to have a ground connection from DAC to Computer, now concerned.


----------



## wberghofer

sferic said:


> Anyone have a Bifrost connected to optical out on a Mac Pro? Any clicking issues, etc.? […]


 
   
  In my setup the Bifrost is connected to the optical out of an Airport Express. There’s a very short click immediately after the Bifrost has been powered on, but nothing else. I’m streaming exclusively 44100 Hz/16 bit ALAC files, so there’s no issue with switching resolution between different songs.
   
  Werner.


----------



## Blurpapa

Quote: 





wberghofer said:


> In my setup the Bifrost is connected to the optical out of an Airport Express. There’s a very short click immediately after the Bifrost has been powered on, but nothing else. I’m streaming exclusively 44100 Hz/16 bit ALAC files, so there’s no issue with switching resolution between different songs.
> 
> Werner.


 

 Does the airport express have an optical out? Isnt it only a single ended 3.5mm analog out jack?


----------



## drexman

how's the bifrost's usb sound quality compared to spdif?


----------



## Kremer930

The stereo mini port on airport express and also MacBook pro is a dual output. If you insert a mini optical it will output digital optical. 
   

  
  Quote: 





blurpapa said:


> Does the airport express have an optical out? Isnt it only a single ended 3.5mm analog out jack?


----------



## judmarc

Quote: 





sferic said:


> Anyone have a Bifrost connected to optical out on a Mac Pro? Any clicking issues, etc.? I was actually psyched about using optical so as not to have a ground connection from DAC to Computer, now concerned.


 


 Well, it's a MacBook Pro rather than a Mac Pro, but perhaps that's close enough?  My understanding from what I've read is the click comes from a mechanical relay inside the unit when the resolution changes.  Through USB I've noticed no click when running through a playlist of songs with different resolutions (24/96 and 24/176.4, so if there are different oscillators for the 44.1kHz-multiple and 48kHz-multiple frequencies and that's what the relay is switching between, any resulting click was too soft to hear).  I've also run the Bifrost from my MacBook Pro's optical out and had no issues, but I wasn't using a playlist with changing resolutions.
   
  BTW, rather than concentrating on one particular advantage of optical (no ground connection), I think you'll want to try the USB connection (assuming you don't have a way to directly connect coax from the Mac Pro - though if you do, try that as well) and just see which sounds better to you.  I personally prefer the USB input in my own setup.


----------



## judmarc

Quote:


drexman said:


> how's the bifrost's usb sound quality compared to spdif?


 


 1. I prefer the USB in my setup.
   
  2. *YMMV!!*
   
  Not surprising that with my setup USB sounds good, for a couple of reasons: Async USB probably offers the lowest jitter at this price point with my source (MacBook Pro, where the alternative is the digital optical output, which reputedly has lots of jitter).  Also, the player I use (Audirvana Plus) does nice things to help with some of the disadvantages of the fact that USB wasn't designed as a dedicated audio interface.
   
  Look, each interface has its advantages and disadvantages.  The S/PDIF interface was made for audio, unlike USB.  Optical offers the lowest electrical noise.  Coax offers greater bandwidth than most optical interfaces.  So it strongly depends on your own setup.  Does your source have vanishingly low jitter?  Then S/PDIF may work better for you.  Does your source come from an electrically noisy environment?  Then optical may be what you want.  Is the source electrically quiet, with low jitter?  Then coax's superior bandwidth may win out.
   
  Moral of the story: Hook it up to your own system, burn it in, and listen.


----------



## Blurpapa

Quote: 





kremer930 said:


> The stereo mini port on airport express and also MacBook pro is a dual output. If you insert a mini optical it will output digital optical.


 

 Oh my goodness. Your comment was like a ray of light that shone on me! You just saved me the difference between an Airport Express and a Squeezebox!! Thanks Kremer. Thanks Werner!!


----------



## Kremer930

Quote: 





blurpapa said:


> Oh my goodness. Your comment was like a ray of light that shone on me! You just saved me the difference between an Airport Express and a Squeezebox!! Thanks Kremer. Thanks Werner!!


 

 Glad to help...but....
   
  I think that an Airport Express is limited to 16/48.  I think.  Perhaps someone else may know.


----------



## Blurpapa

Quote: 





kremer930 said:


> Glad to help...but....
> 
> I think that an Airport Express is limited to 16/48.  I think.  Perhaps someone else may know.


 

 Yes it is. But most of my music are CD ripped Applelossless files anyway so 16/44 will suffice for the time being. Now to find a good quality mini optical to Toslink cable!
   
  (EDIT)
  Some Airport Express Facts I found:
  The AX is limited to music files that iTunes can read; ie, 16-bit data only. These data, though, can be in any file format that iTunes recognizes, from lossy MP3s at the low-quality end of the spectrum to Apple Lossless and lossless AIF or WAV files at the high end. It is also important to note that the AX functions only at a 44.1kHz sample rate. When you play 32kHz or 48kHz data, iTunes sample-rate-converts the data in real time before sending it to the AX.

 iTunes uses a QuickTime CODEC to convert audio files to Apple Lossless, and then, uses AirTunes to send them to the AX. In turn, the AX uses built-in software that converts the Apple Lossless to an Encoded Digital Audio format. From there, digital audio is sent to a optical transceiver to convert the electrical signal to an optical one before sending it to the innermost part of the audio port. For analog, the AX has a built-in DAC to convert the Encoded Digital Audio to Analog which is sent to the same audio port.

 One operational glitch is the fact that, as the AX doesn't have a local clock circuit, when the incoming data is interrupted, as it is when you change songs in iTunes, there is no longer a digital output to feed the DAC, which loses lock as a result. Provided you stick within its limitations and your DAC can cope with its digital output switching off at the end of songs, the combination of iTunes and an AX provides an easy way to pipe CD-quality music around your home.


----------



## judmarc

Quote:


kremer930 said:


> Glad to help...but....
> 
> I think that an Airport Express is limited to 16/48.  I think.  Perhaps someone else may know.


 


 Don't remember whether the word length is 16 or 24, but the sample rate is definitely limited to 48kHz.  While we're talking limitations, also remember the digital optical out for at least most MacBooks/MacBook Pros is limited to a 96kHz sample rate.  Don't know about other Mac stuff, other than the Airport Express.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





kremer930 said:


> The stereo mini port on airport express and also MacBook pro is a dual output. If you insert a mini optical it will output digital optical.


 

 Just to expand on this, I'm pretty sure that all current Macs feature dual output except the MacBook Air (analog only) and the Mac Pro (separate toslink in/outs for digital).


----------



## Radio_head

Quote: 





traddad said:


> + 1+ Love the synergy of LaFaro and Evans. My favorite bassist in a trio or quartet. Scratch that. Favorite ever.


 

 another plus on that.  Although it may just have to do with Evans being far and away my favorite Jazz pianist, and his years with LaFaro being before drugs really messed with him.  I do think he returned to form in his last couple of years though, the pianist on "the Last Waltz" box set is a totally new Evans...


----------



## olor1n

Sorry for the slight OT, but today I have a new resolve to dive in when Schiit release their mid-tier balanced gear. Can anyone recall Jason stating there will be an option for a stepped attenuator for the balanced amp? Has there been any mention of whether this mid-tier amp is a solid state, hybrid or all tube design?


----------



## Argo Duck

olor1n, try here


----------



## soymilkftw

Has anyone heard anything about the status of the current backorder list? I just ordered one and I'm hoping it'll come sooner than a month.


----------



## ninjikiran

my non-usb shipped same day


----------



## Butler

A few first impressions, I've had mine since Thursday or so..

The biggest thing I can confirm is the wide soundstage. It's wonderful, particularly because the mod I have on my cans kind of killed the soundstage and this brought it back.

I'm still burning it in, but she's going to be a keeper for years and years. I have it under my Asgard and it looks really really good, and also acts as a secondary heatsink for the Asgard (Asgrill), heating up along with the amp and further helping to dissipate the heat.


----------



## ninjikiran

I ran an experiment and left the bifrost off, while leaving the lyr on for 3 hours.  The bifrosts shell was... luke warm but not hot so most heat is from the bifrost itself when the casing gets warm.


----------



## M-13

A question for those stacking the Asgard/Lyr on top of the Bifrost. Are you guys using the small rubber feet to give them a little seperation or are you just stacking them flat without any seperation? Does the Asgard/Lyr slide around without the feet?


----------



## Butler

m-13 said:


> A question for those stacking the Asgard/Lyr on top of the Bifrost. Are you guys using the small rubber feet to give them a little seperation or are you just stacking them flat without any seperation? Does the Asgard/Lyr slide around without the feet?




Like I said I'm stacking Asgard on the Bifrost with the stock feet and they're not really moving at all. I could imagine they would slide without them.
I figured I'd go with feet because even though the bifrost is acting as the asgard's second heat sink, it's still a good idea to let it breath.


----------



## juman231

With end of 2011 approaching quickly, I wonder if Schiit's plan to release the balanced DAC by this year still holds with all the back orders... Geez people, stop ordering their schiit.


----------



## judmarc

grokit, just noting the number of posts you've got and the date you joined works out to over 10 posts _a day_, on average, for two years.
   
  Dang.  
   
  Apologies for the OT, everyone, back to your regularly scheduled thread....


----------



## ninjikiran

Using the stock feet for separation, the bifrost does not get hot until it is turned on.(pun not intended)
  
  Quote: 





m-13 said:


> A question for those stacking the Asgard/Lyr on top of the Bifrost. Are you guys using the small rubber feet to give them a little seperation or are you just stacking them flat without any seperation? Does the Asgard/Lyr slide around without the feet?


----------



## Argo Duck

I posted 9 times in my first 3 1/2 years, and lurked about 18 months before that. Found more to say in the last 6 months - since the LCD2 - but expect to drop back to a few per year soon.
   
_Now_ back to our regular programming...
  Quote: 





judmarc said:


> grokit, just noting the number of posts you've got and the date you joined works out to over 10 posts _a day_, on average, for two years.
> 
> Dang.
> 
> Apologies for the OT, everyone, back to your regularly scheduled thread....


----------



## Blurpapa

Quote: 





argo duck said:


> I posted 9 times in my first 3 1/2 years, and lurked about 18 months before that. Found more to say in the last 6 months - since the LCD2 - but expect to drop back to a few per year soon.
> 
> _Now_ back to our regular programming...


 


  And the anticipation of what you are about to reveal is maddening!


----------



## Argo Duck

You're right - there are a _few_ clear differences in emphasis, and a lot that is the same to my ears. There's no point analyzing to the n-th degree. The harder it is to hear something, the more likely it would be lost in the much bigger differences between peoples' ears anyway!
   
  (A holdup has been some problems my wife persuaded me to sort out in her department - some days have been 12 hours, and not easy ones either 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)
   
  Want to double-check some things, briefly bring in the Stax and Lyr (I'll roll back to stock GE6BZ7s I think) and do a little longer listening before I write up.
   
  All being well, part 1 MiniMax vs Bifrost in about 8 hours. Part 2 StageDac vs Bifrost is 2-3 days away.
  
  Quote: 





> And the anticipation of what you are about to reveal is maddening!


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





judmarc said:


> grokit, just noting the number of posts you've got and the date you joined works out to over 10 posts _a day_, on average, for two years.
> 
> Dang.
> 
> Apologies for the OT, everyone, back to your regularly scheduled thread....


 

 What's your point?
   

  Do you have anything to say about the content of my posts?
   
  Is this an example of a wasted post or is yours?


----------



## Yikes

Sensitive much? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
   
  Oh...and I'm just padding my post count.


----------



## Kremer930

I wonder if Jason will provide an update on when the product announcements will be made since there will be no pre-order process this time around?  I am guessing that the Statement amp and Dac wont ship until close to June 2012 at this stage given that Bifrost USB was approx 2 months late of original plan and that the intermediate Dac and amp have to fit in between.
   
  The Lyr Bifrost combo is so great that I am now longing for even more power for my HE6.  Who would have thought that 6 watts wasnt really enough!!!


----------



## RazorJack

Quote: 





argo duck said:


> Part 2 StageDac vs Bifrost is 2-3 days away.


 






 
   
  It would also be interesting (for me in particular, but I'm sure for others as well) if you could briefly test Stagedac > Concerto > T1 vs. Bifrost > Lyr > T1. I'm about to pull the trigger on a T1 any second, just curious what I'd miss/gain if I had chosen the Schiit path.


----------



## Argo Duck

Sure, in fact that will be a good comparison to make using the T1, as it's quite a different phone from the rev 1 LCD2.
  Quote: 





razorjack said:


> It would also be interesting (for me in particular, but I'm sure for others as well) if you could briefly test Stagedac > Concerto > T1 vs. Bifrost > Lyr > T1. I'm about to pull the trigger on a T1 any second, just curious what I'd miss/gain if I had chosen the Schiit path.


----------



## M-13

I'm looking forward to the annoucement as well. It won't be soon, because of all the complainers... Jason will be much more conservative now about annoucements. I think if they just made a balanced Lyr it would be pretty powerful no? That would double the power, just because it's balanced, so 12 watts into 32ohms? and 8 watts into 50ohms? WOW... I hope something like this comes out...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  Quote: 





kremer930 said:


> I wonder if Jason will provide an update on when the product announcements will be made since there will be no pre-order process this time around?  I am guessing that the Statement amp and Dac wont ship until close to June 2012 at this stage given that Bifrost USB was approx 2 months late of original plan and that the intermediate Dac and amp have to fit in between.
> 
> The Lyr Bifrost combo is so great that I am now longing for even more power for my HE6.  Who would have thought that 6 watts wasnt really enough!!!


----------



## rlawli

Quote: 





> ... so 12 watts into 32ohms? and 8 watts into 50ohms? WOW... I hope something like this comes out...


 

 In the meantime, you might consider occupying yourself while you wait by experimenting with vintage speaker amps.


----------



## sling5s

Bifrost really pairs well with Asgard, Asgard being on the warm and mellow side and the Bifrost being on the slightly bright and lively side, it balances each other out in a good way.


----------



## Blurpapa

Quote: 





argo duck said:


> You're right - there are a _few_ clear differences in emphasis, and a lot that is the same to my ears. There's no point analyzing to the n-th degree. The harder it is to hear something, the more likely it would be lost in the much bigger differences between peoples' ears anyway!
> 
> (A holdup has been some problems my wife persuaded me to sort out in her department - some days have been 12 hours, and not easy ones either
> 
> ...


 


   
  Hi AiDee! Thanks very much for that. Just wanted to add that I didnt mean to rush you but had wanted to add on to the exciting atmosphere of anticipation for your MiniMax and BiFrost shoot out  I too agree that a proper review takes many good long sessions of proper listening. Wishing you tons of fun while doing it, which normally happens after we've unwound from all the important stuff we need to do.


----------



## rrahman

Didn't skylab plan on writing a review of the bifrost???


----------



## Argo Duck

Thanks Blurpapa - appreciate all your comments 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  As a matter of fact it has been (mostly) fun, and an interesting learning experience too. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Unfortunately, there _will_ be a delay. When I said "all being well" I was thinking of something changing my impressions. Instead, wouldn't you know it, my normally quiet country environment got disrupted by heavy machinery near my home a few hours ago. As I could clearly hear it at a low level through the music, I had to stop for three hours.
   
  We're coming into evening in New Zealand. There will be noise and distraction for about the next three hours - my wife being the noisy person she is  - after which I will continue...


----------



## Argo Duck

Rob does/is. I'm sure it will be worth waiting for. I believe he's pretty busy reviewing various gear atm.
   
  Mine (I wouldn't dignify it with the term "review", perhaps "mini-review" 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) concerns MiniMax DAC and StageDac comparisons specifically.
   
  Quote: 





rrahman said:


> Didn't skylab plan on writing a review of the bifrost???


----------



## Austin Morrow

Hopefully they get some Bifrost's back in. I'm dying to review one. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Anway, I have my Valhalla, a Double Helix Cables "Molecule" HD650 cable, an HD650, and Fidelia crying for a Bifrost to complete my setup.


----------



## Kremer930

Hmm. Exciting stuff indeed. I actually know how much power the statement amp will put out, into 8 ohms at least, but have been sworn to secrecy. What I can say is that it will improve significantly on the Lyr on power as well as many other areas. 
   
  I am also dissapointed that Jason will not be as forthcoming with details but agree that it is the safest option given that some people complained. 
  
  Quote: 





m-13 said:


> I'm looking forward to the annoucement as well. It won't be soon, because of all the complainers... Jason will be much more conservative now about annoucements. I think if they just made a balanced Lyr it would be pretty powerful no? That would double the power, just because it's balanced, so 12 watts into 32ohms? and 8 watts into 50ohms? WOW... I hope something like this comes out...


----------



## HK_sends

Has anyone needed the Windows 7 USB drivers the site mentions in order to plug a PC/Laptop into a Bifrost?  Do they come with the DAC?
  Thanks!
   
  Inquiring minds...
  -HK sends


----------



## soymilkftw

From what I've read, windows users need to DL the drivers to use the bifrost.  Mac and linux users are plug n play.


----------



## HK_sends

Quote: 





soymilkftw said:


> From what I've read, windows users need to DL the drivers to use the bifrost.  Mac and linux users are plug n play.


 
  Yeah...I was wondering where to download them from.  I haven't gotten the Bifrost yet, but wanted to be prepared.
   
  Cheers!
  -HK sends


----------



## xxhaxx

http://schiit.com/drivers/
   
  Here you go


----------



## soymilkftw

Just wondering when did you order?  I just put my order in monday.  So far no response yet.  I was optimistic when I heard someone got theirs shipped out same day.  So far the wait continues.


----------



## HK_sends

Quote: 





xxhaxx said:


> http://schiit.com/drivers/
> 
> Here you go


 
  Thank you very much!
   
  Cheers!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  -HK sends


----------



## Emulator

Quote: 





argo duck said:


> Rob does/is. I'm sure it will be worth waiting for. I believe he's pretty busy reviewing various gear atm.
> 
> Mine (I wouldn't dignify it with the term "review", perhaps "mini-review"
> 
> ...


 

 I am sure that I am not the only one eagerly anticipating your "mini-review". How are you progressing?
   
  E


----------



## Argo Duck

Hi Emulator. For you and others who may be interested, look here. 
   
  I apologize that this, my first 'mini-review' for head-fi, seemed to take a lot of words to say very little! It is hardly a model review, and I split it out to stop it cluttering this thread.
   
  Anyways, I hope it is enjoyable


----------



## Edoardo

Quote: 





m-13 said:


> I'm looking forward to the annoucement as well. It won't be soon, because of all the complainers... Jason will be much more conservative now about annoucements.


 


  The Internet it's a strange place... People actually complains about a product even before its release...


----------



## Jason Stoddard

Hey all,
   
  We haven't forgotten you--and we're not intending to have *no* pre-order announcement at all; we're just going to do it now when we (a) have all the parts in hand, and (b) a solid schedule from the PCB assembly house. Loosely translated, this means something more like a one-month pre-order rather than two.
   
  With respect to new products, yes, we have been slower than we would have liked. I really want to address all the back-order issues and ensure continuous stocking of current products, before we amble off to the "new shiny." We've been doing a ton of work over the last couple of months with master POs, scheduling, and planning that should start paying off, well, about now.
   
  So what does this mean, release-date-wise? Well, we're still hoping to announce one or two new things before the end of the year, but that may slip to January. The "statement" stuff we're still hoping for Q1. Beyond that, well . . . who knows?
   
  All the best,
  Jason


----------



## Skylab

I have been listening to the Bifrost, and will be working on the review write-up in the coming week, or maybe the week following.


----------



## HK_sends

Thanks very much for the info, Jason!
   
  Cheers!
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  -HK sends


----------



## Kremer930

Thanks Jason.  Glad to know that you are still doing pre-order.  I feel like I have been talking Schiit statement gear for at least a year already.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Congrats on the Bifrost.  I know that it is still early days on the public sentiment and reviews but I am wrapped with my purchase and thing that it represents great quality of build and sound.  
   
  Now back to saving for the Statement gear.....


----------



## ninjikiran

build quality on the outside appears solid, its a sexy brushed aluminum that doesn't resemble basic sheet metal painted black, and sound quality is amazing =3.


----------



## Rebel975

Anyone have both a Xonar ST/STX and the Bifrost? Interested in some comparisons here.


----------



## Anaxilus

Heard the new Matrix DAC today, I think it's $700?  Yeah, Bifrost is better to my ears.


----------



## Austin Morrow

Quote: 





anaxilus said:


> Heard the new Matrix DAC today, I think it's $700?  Yeah, Bifrost is better to my ears.


 


  Sweet! I have one coming soon to compliment my Valhalla, which already sounds better than it's price from the other amps I have compared it to. Maybe this will finally be the end for my HD650 (that is, until I get a HD800, then it's the Apex Peak + Volcano lol).


----------



## dyl1dyl

Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> Well, we're still hoping to announce one or two new things before the end of the year, but that may slip to January. The "statement" stuff we're still hoping for Q1.
> 
> All the best,
> Jason


 

 Yay, still hope for a statement DAC by march


----------



## sferic

Thanks very much to everyone who replied on the subject of Bifrost + Macintosh SPDIF outs. Sounds like all is well.
   
  I ordered the Bifrost without the USB for a couple reasons. One, yes I want to see if the optical connection is less noisy. I have a Firewire interface now (Duet) which sounds lovely as long there is nothing else churning on the Firewire bus (a PCI card for the backup drives solved that). And two, I'd rather add the USB myself later anyway, and it's a pretty sure bet I will because I love to tinker, anticipate new gear, and upgrade things.
   
  How brilliant is it that they designed the Bifrost to be inherently tinker-able, they know their market!


----------



## Traddad

If I might be so bold as to make a request....A simple integrated amp of about 50 watts would be sweet.  A CD player and another digital source into the Bifrost and the Bifrost into the amp.   Throw in a nice pair of Totems and you have small living room nirvana.
   
  A guy can dream...


----------



## BLenarcik

Quote: 





rebel975 said:


> Anyone have both a Xonar ST/STX and the Bifrost? Interested in some comparisons here.


 

 Yes.  I had a Xonar STX with rolled op-amps (LME49860NAs and the LME49720NA prior) in my system that I was very happy with... until I got my Bifrost a couple weeks ago.
   
  I immediately noticed a very noticeable improvement with the USB interface over the Xonar.  I am now using the coax input from an old M-Audio Revolution 7.1 card (which supports every bit depth and sample rate over coax) and the Bifrost sounds even better than with USB.  Before reading any of the other comments posted here, I was using a lot of same terms used to describe the sound to myself.  I can definitely confirm that this is a very nice DAC and a nice step up from the Xonar. I've been very busy with work travel and haven't had time to do some head to head comparisons. Mostly, I have been just really enjoying the music coming from my system.   
   
  I'm taking next week off so I should have time to do more comparative listening and write it up.
   
  - Bob


----------



## Blurpapa

Quote: 





argo duck said:


> Thanks Blurpapa - appreciate all your comments
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

  
  Haha. I LOVE a noisy family. It shows the active relationships that members have with each other. I cannot imagine "my house is dark and my pots are cold" (Santana).


----------



## redwarrior191

Quote: 





anaxilus said:


> Heard the new Matrix DAC today, I think it's $700?  Yeah, Bifrost is better to my ears.


 


  anax..any comparison of bifrost with dacport??


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





redwarrior191 said:


> anax..any comparison of bifrost with dacport??


 

 Good question.  Been awhile since I've had a DACPort of any variety but I am a fan.  I do find the DACPort LX to be more tonally similar to the BiFrost than the non LX but less lively in dynamics.  I haven't had a chance to use the LX w/ the same amps I've had the BiFrost hooked up to so I can't say for sure how they compare feeding some higher end stuff.  You can put the LX and non LX in your pocket though and they are built around USB primarily while the BiFrost is not, if that even matters in any way.  I spent a good few hours dedicated to the BiFrost at a meet but be aware I have no lived with it.  I heard enough to think I may try living w/ the Statement DAC though.  =)


----------



## drexman

you used stock/regular usb cable or some audiophile usb cable?
  i have a musiland 02 that can be used as usb > spdif converter, but i dont know if it will sound better than just using the bifrost's usb input. so it's really important for me that the usb will sound just as good as spdif because i can save money when i order the bifrost without usb.
  Quote: 





blenarcik said:


> Yes.  I had a Xonar STX with rolled op-amps (LME49860NAs and the LME49720NA prior) in my system that I was very happy with... until I got my Bifrost a couple weeks ago.
> 
> I immediately noticed a very noticeable improvement with the USB interface over the Xonar.  I am now using the coax input from an old M-Audio Revolution 7.1 card (which supports every bit depth and sample rate over coax) and the Bifrost sounds even better than with USB.  Before reading any of the other comments posted here, I was using a lot of same terms used to describe the sound to myself.  I can definitely confirm that this is a very nice DAC and a nice step up from the Xonar. I've been very busy with work travel and haven't had time to do some head to head comparisons. Mostly, I have been just really enjoying the music coming from my system.
> 
> ...


----------



## redwarrior191

Quote: 





anaxilus said:


> Good question.  Been awhile since I've had a DACPort of any variety but I am a fan.  I do find the DACPort LX to be more tonally similar to the BiFrost than the non LX but less lively in dynamics.  I haven't had a chance to use the LX w/ the same amps I've had the BiFrost hooked up to so I can't say for sure how they compare feeding some higher end stuff.  You can put the LX and non LX in your pocket though and they are built around USB primarily while the BiFrost is not, if that even matters in any way.  I spent a good few hours dedicated to the BiFrost at a meet but be aware I have no lived with it.  I heard enough to think I may try living w/ the Statement DAC though.  =)


 

 thanks!! yea the portability of the dacport could be a decider for me.. if the dacport is on par with the bifrost, i think i might get the LX instead..since it's also slightly cheaper..


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





redwarrior191 said:


> thanks!! yea the portability of the dacport could be a decider for me.. if the dacport is on par with the bifrost, i think i might get the LX instead..since it's also slightly cheaper..


 

 Well, on par in some ways, dynamics are a big consideration but so is putting something in your pocket if you need that.  Give us some impressions when you can however you decide.


----------



## judmarc

Quote: 





drexman said:


> you used stock/regular usb cable or some audiophile usb cable?
> i have a musiland 02 that can be used as usb > spdif converter, but i dont know if it will sound better than just using the bifrost's usb input. so it's really important for me that the usb will sound just as good as spdif because i can save money when i order the bifrost without usb.


 

 drexman, my guess (and it's only a guess, because I don't have your system to listen to) is that straight input to the Bifrost will sound better.  I have a Musical Fidelity V-Link, a similar sort of box to your Musiland.  I tried the Bifrost running coax and optical from the V-Link, and the Bifrost directly connected to my MacBook Pro with optical and USB.  My ranking of sound quality in my own system, from best to worst:
   
  1. USB direct
   
  2. Optical direct
   
  3. Coax and optical through V-Link (tie)
   
  #3 wasn't really close to #1 and #2.  It makes sense, because at the price of the Musiland or V-Link, you're really just adding another box in front of the Bifrost, you're not improving over the Bifrost's direct USB interface.  And if you're not improving anything, just the fact that you're running the signal through an extra box will result in some dropoff in sound quality.
   
  I do have an audiophile USB cable (see sig), and that's probably one reason I prefer the USB to the optical S/PDIF direct.  The optical output from the MBP is also reputed to be quite jittery.  It's possible your experience with optical direct (or coax direct, which I don't have from the MBP) would be different than mine, depending on your source.  I'm also using a player (Audirvana Plus) that may help with USB sound quality.


----------



## judmarc

Quote: 





grokit said:


> What's your point?
> 
> Do you have anything to say about the content of my posts?
> 
> Is this an example of a wasted post or is yours?


 
   
  No point - it was meant as a (joking) compliment, thus the smiley.
   
  I'd say my OT original, your reply, and this response are *all* wasted posts, but as it seems I unintentionally gave offense, I thought I ought to clear this up.
   
  Just wanted to apologize if I caused you any concern or anger - not my intention at all.
   
  Once again, back to our regularly scheduled thread...


----------



## redwarrior191

Quote: 





anaxilus said:


> Well, on par in some ways, dynamics are a big consideration but so is putting something in your pocket if you need that.  Give us some impressions when you can however you decide.


 


  thanks, appreciate your comments.. i'll post some impressions on whatever i decide to get in the respective threads..


----------



## drexman

i guess you're right, i've heard similar things from knowledgable people here like dan lavry. so i guess my best option is to use usb to bifrost with an audiophile cable.
  maybe that guy who said spdif sounded better than usb just used a bad usb cable and a good coaxial cable so the differences he heard were coming from cables and not the bifrost's inputs. i sure hope so.
  i wonder, out of curiousity, have you heard the bifrost's spdif through a really good transport like a cd player?
  
  Quote: 





judmarc said:


> drexman, my guess (and it's only a guess, because I don't have your system to listen to) is that straight input to the Bifrost will sound better.  I have a Musical Fidelity V-Link, a similar sort of box to your Musiland.  I tried the Bifrost running coax and optical from the V-Link, and the Bifrost directly connected to my MacBook Pro with optical and USB.  My ranking of sound quality in my own system, from best to worst:
> 
> 1. USB direct
> 
> ...


----------



## volted

Not trolling, but not sure you need an expensive USB cable. Digital is digital. USB uses CRC to ensure transmission integrity. If you get dropped data, you have a broken cable, not a cheap one 
  
  Quote: 





drexman said:


> i guess you're right, i've heard similar things from knowledgable people here like dan lavry. so i guess my best option is to use usb to bifrost with an audiophile cable.
> maybe that guy who said spdif sounded better than usb just used a bad usb cable and a good coaxial cable so the differences he heard were coming from cables and not the bifrost's inputs. i sure hope so.
> i wonder, out of curiousity, have you heard the bifrost's spdif through a really good transport like a cd player?


----------



## drexman

i dont know anything about sound science but a lot of people here say they clearly hear a difference.


----------



## Butler

volted said:


> Not trolling, but not sure you need an expensive USB cable. Digital is digital. USB uses CRC to ensure transmission integrity. If you get dropped data, you have a broken cable, not a cheap one




I understand where you're coming from and having a background in IT I tend to agree…But I'm still on the fence about it myself. However, people here will go on all night and day with you about that, trust me. There was a thread awhile back where a guy simply claimed that the majority of statement level multithousand dollar DACs were no better than most ~300-400 dollar DACs. Needless to say that was like a 10+ page schiit storm. It's one person's word against another one. The usual argument on one side is money spent encourages a placebo effect. 

Trust your ears. That's all I have to say. 

For the person who asked, there is no "stock" USB cable unfortunately. Which is a shame because the Asgard shipped with a decent LR-> 1/8th adapter. It ships without a USB cable even if you order the card. I was lucky enough to have one from an old printer lying around.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





judmarc said:


> No point - it was meant as a (joking) compliment, thus the smiley.


 
   
  My bad. I guess I_ *was* _being a bit sensitive and I felt called out at the time.
   
  Thanks for the thoughtful reply


----------



## hp300plus

Thank you for this, judmarc.   I was wondering what a V-Link might do to further improve the signal versus Optical out from a Mac.  
  
  Quote: 





judmarc said:


> 1. USB direct
> 
> 2. Optical direct
> 
> ...


----------



## judmarc

Quote:


drexman said:


> i guess you're right, i've heard similar things from knowledgable people here like dan lavry. so i guess my best option is to use usb to bifrost with an audiophile cable.
> maybe that guy who said spdif sounded better than usb just used a bad usb cable and a good coaxial cable so the differences he heard were coming from cables and not the bifrost's inputs. i sure hope so.
> i wonder, out of curiousity, have you heard the bifrost's spdif through a really good transport like a cd player?


 

 I'm absolutely sure that in some systems S/PDIF will sound better.  In my system the dice are kinda loaded in favor of USB.
   
  I have a really excellent coaxial cable (Omega Mikro Zephyr), and I've heard the Bifrost using that cable fed by my Oppo BDP-83, which I'd consider a good (though certainly not state of the art) transport.  The Bifrost fed from my MacBook Pro sounds much better than the original CD from the BDP-83 over coax.  But that's another unfair comparison - the sound quality from my computer rig was already better than sound from the Oppo back when I was using a Theta Pro Basic II DAC and the V-Link.  Where I think you might get a fairer comparison is using the optical and/or coax out from a very good sound card where the computer and sound card are optimized for low electrical noise and jitter.  My guess is the folks at Schiit listened to reasonably priced PC and Mac rigs with the Bifrost before indicating they think USB may not be the greatest audio interface, so I'm sure astronomical expense isn't necessary to achieve excellent sound with the Bifrost's S/PDIF inputs.
   
  Sorry for what I'm sure sounds like back-and-forth to you, but I want to make two things clear:
   
  - What I hear from my system
   
  - Acknowledge that other folks with different systems can and will get different results
   
  Re "audiophile cable," I've tried my system with 4 USB cables.  In order of preference they are:
   
  - Audioquest Carbon
   
  - Audioquest Forest
   
  - Wireworld Starlight
   
  - Furutech GT2
   
  In order of expense they are:
   
  - Audioquest Carbon and Furutech GT2, both in the $100-$110 range (for the length I use)
   
  - Wireworld Starlight, about $85
   
  - Audioquest Forest, about $30-$35
   
  So the Forest, by far the least costly, would be to my mind a relative bargain.


----------



## drexman

"we put a ton of time into our USB implementation, but, to our ears, USB still doesn’t quite offer the performance of SPDIF"... damn... i still hope they used some crappy usb cable, lol.
  macbook's usb sounds better than cd player's spdif with bifrost? you made me really happy right now.
  thanks so much for the usb cables comparison. i was going to buy the starlight but now the forest sounds perfect at such a low price. a 30$ cable sounds better than 85-100$ cables? wow. if so audioquest must be a really good company. can you describe a bit what makes the forest sound better than starlight and gt2  and what about carbon sounds better than forest and how big is the difference?


----------



## judmarc

Quote:


drexman said:


> i was going to buy the starlight but now the forest sounds perfect at such a low price. a 30$ cable sounds better than 85-100$ cables? wow. if so audioquest must be a really good company. can you describe a bit what makes the forest sound better than starlight and gt2  and what about carbon sounds better than forest and how big is the difference?


 

 Audioquest has been a good cable company for a long time - of course, so has Wireworld.  (There I go again, right?   But yes, I did definitely prefer the Forest to the Starlight and GT2.  What were the things that made me prefer the Forest?  Let me give you a quick intro to my personal "philosophy of sound quality" if you want to call it that, so you know where I'm coming from.
   
  Listening to music ain't rocket science. Don't make it harder than it is. Couple of really easy ways to tell whether what you're hearing is closer to what the artist intended:
  - Probably easiest of all: You hear greater differences between the sounds of different tracks. There are virtually always differences between the sounds of two different recordings, and even between the sounds of different tracks on the same recording. If everything sounds similar, one or more of your components is either not passing along all the info it's receiving from the recording, or imparting a 'sound' of its own, or both. The converse is that the greater the differences between tracks, the more information your components are passing through from the recording, and/or the less sound of their own they're imparting - i.e., they're better components.
  - You hear more realistic-sounding instruments or (especially) vocals. (Especially vocals since the human voice is the 'instrument' with which we're all most familiar.) Don't concentrate on whether there's good bass or treble; that way lies madness, because there's no reference for it in real life - no one ever left a Pavarotti recital raving about the quality of the 'treble.' In fact, don't concentrate at all. Just listen to whether the voice sounds natural. You likely hear people's voices every single day, so it's not hard at all to tell in an instant whether the voices coming from your speakers or headphones sound right.
  - Greater emotion is conveyed by the same music. This is another simple test where concentrating too hard can be antithetical to best results. Listening to music is an emotional experience. All sorts of sound quality goodness is packed into the simple conclusion as to whether a piece of music moves you as it should. Are there good microdynamics so subtle vocal shadings and phrasing are communicated effectively? What about the handling of macrodynamics so crescendos make the hair on the back of your neck stand up? Effective reproduction of transient attacks so percussion instruments sound real and communicate rhythmic excitement? (This has been put in terms of "Does it have you tapping your feet?" Of course there's always some wag saying Hey, I'm not about to be tapping my feet to my Archie Shepp/Gregorian chant/etc. recording here. Yes, we know.)

 So in that context, what did I hear from these cables?  It's easiest to begin with the Furutech.  It was substantially worse than the other cables.  There was little real detail, almost a muddy quality, but always a pseudo-detailed "zippiness" or "twang" to the sound that over-emphasized things like fingers sliding on guitar strings.  Everything sounded similar, and looking at my first principle above, we know that can't be good.
   
  The Starlight was a good cable - voices and instruments sounded nice and natural, it gave quite a bit more "bloom" and drama to the sound in crescendoes, good soundstage.  Nice listening experience, nothing really bad to say about it, and I could live with the cable if I had to.
   
  The Forest provided more natural-sounding vocals in particular.  I like my demos to include several recordings of vocals that aren't heavily produced, with the vocalist "out front" in a sparse mix - for example, Rosanne Cash's "The List," especially the song "500 Miles;"  Alison Krauss's "Paper Airplane;" and Gillian Welch's "The Harrow and the Harvest."  On these types of songs, the Forest provided more actual detail and microdynamics, making subtle phrasing and vocal shadings more apparent, so giving a more natural sound overall.  There were better macrodynamics and transients, too, giving recordings more drama and emotional excitement.  I could be happily satisfied with this as my USB cable.
   
  The Carbon did all that the Forest had done, but more so.  Even more natural sounding vocals, with better microdynamics.  More detail in the vocals, e.g., lyrics were more easily understandable.  On something as plainly recorded as Gillian Welch's voice on "Hard Times" from The Harrow and the Harvest, it sounds real, like she's standing in the room singing.  Better, bigger soundstage (on tracks recorded that way - I have a recording called "Stay Awake," of artists doing Disney songs, and it has Tom Waits singing "Heigh Ho" so down and dirty you can feel the Seven Dwarves working all day in a mine with picks and shovels; if you get a soundstage higher than about 3 feet on this song, there's something wrong); greater localization of instruments so you can follow the instrumental lines better.  More "bloom" and drama where instruments join in with the vocalist.
   
  Between the Carbon and the Forest, IMO it just comes down to what you can reasonably afford.  I could happily have kept the Forest in my system forever if $100 had felt like more than I wanted to spend on a cable.  But in the context of my entire system, $100 didn't feel like too much, so I bought it.  Of course, if it hadn't sounded a fair amount better than the Forest I would have returned it, just as I did the Starlight and the GT2.  But it did sound better, so I kept it.


----------



## internethandle

For what it's worth, I'm currently using a Furutech GT2 with the Bifrost and am pretty satisfied with it - it's a noticeable improvement over stock cables. Before the Bifrost, I was using the following configuration, though, so it's difficult for me to tell what improvement, if any, the GT2 made:
   
  Motherboard USB port -> Kimber Kable USB B-Bus Cable (non-Silver version) with ferrite beads removed (these were originally put on by Kimber Kable to reduce EMI/RFI etc., but there's since been a lot of talk about how they could potentially interrupt signal flow in a USB application, so I chose to remove them) -> Olimex USB Isolator dongle w/ 12v switching power supply -> Radio Shack USB Cable with what looked like gold plated connectors.
   
  I then swapped out the Radio Shack cable for the GT2 so that the GT2 ran from the Olimex dongle to my then-DAC (the Keces DA-151 USB DAC), instead. There seemed to be improvement - more sense of "air," slightly more textural sense to the instruments, although admittedly it also seemed to make the music a little more recessed, which may echo what was said about the cable sounding a little "muddy" - it definitely enjoys percussive sounds and guitar strums etc. stand out very much from the background, and tends to be more merciless with source material (MP3's sounded noticeably worse after the GT2 versus FLAC). Overall, however, the sonic character the Olimex dongle imparted to my then-DAC was much more forceful than any cable (more "gain" and clarity, everything sounded louder and more aggresive + a blacker background). Such dongles are not asynchronous-friendly, from what I've gathered, however, so I have kept it away from the Bifrost in fear that I may fry something. Additionally, the purpose of USB isolator dongles is, ostensibly, to galvanically isolate your computer and your DAC from one another, and the Bifrost's USB solution does this already per Jason (my old DAC did not, to my knowledge, or at least not very effectively). Right now, as a consequence, the Furutech GT2 runs from my motherboard USB port directly to the Bifrost, and I've yet to A/B my Kimber Kable USB (which I still have lying around) with the Furutech. I may give that a shot. for kicks. The Furutech definitely has much more sturdy of a build quality than the Kimber Kable - it's thick as hell and its connectors will grip anything they're plugged into without much give. 
   
  Anyway, I doubt I'll be changing the Furutech for anything anytime soon - it's improved over stock, and my experience with USB cables has been subtle enough that I'd rather tinker with the rest of the signal chain before throwing more money at USB cables again. I'll keep the Forest recc in mind, though, since it wouldn't be that much of a gamble some time in the future. There is some school of thought that asynchronous protocols in USB DACs make audiophile USB cables more of a moot point, anyway, if I recall correctly.


----------



## mmayer167

Well, my system is complete as of today! Sounding wonderful and pleased with initial sonic from the bifrost. Introducing the bifrost really opened my eyes to what the lyr is capable of doing. The bifrost is really spacious sounding and clean, very nice. Maybe a while before i put some sort of impressions together for here. till then rest assured the bifrost is no joke, rather earnest.  
   
  M


----------



## Temple

I wonder how the Bifrost will stack up to the JKDAK32. Seems that might be a good comparison even though the JKDAC32 is a bit more money.


----------



## bcart180

Looks pretty good eh?


----------



## Austin Morrow

Quote: 





bcart180 said:


> Looks pretty good eh?


 

 Subsititute the Lyr for a Valhalla, add a Double Helix Cables Molecule for the HD650 and you have my exact setup.


----------



## Kremer930

Does anyone notice that their  Bifrost is a lighter shade of alloy than their Lyr? I am not sure if the Lyr may have darkened over time, possibly due to heat soak, or otherwise just be a different alloy supplier. It still looks awesome together though. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  ​


----------



## bcart180

Quote: 





kremer930 said:


> Does anyone notice that their  Bifrost is a lighter shade of alloy than their Lyr? I am not sure if the Lyr may have darkened over time, possibly due to heat soak, or otherwise just be a different alloy supplier. It still looks awesome together though.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I had a Valhalla and noticed that the color was a little different from the Bifrost.  I also noticed the same difference when I got my Lyr.  No big deal -- they look absolutely beautiful paired.


----------



## leesure

I would assume it's a batch difference from their vendor.  The difference is there, but subtle.


----------



## HK_sends

I am having some severe envy issues!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Cheers!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  -HK sends


----------



## leesure

Moved my Schiit to the Family Room.


----------



## Anaxilus

^ that sofa/chair is looking really good right now....


----------



## leesure

Quote: 





anaxilus said:


> ^ that sofa/chair is looking really good right now....


 


  I'm sitting in it right now...and it is.


----------



## Austin Morrow

Quote: 





leesure said:


> Moved my Schiit to the Family Room.


 

 That looks like the ultimate bedside/couchside rig.


----------



## Austin Morrow

Quote: 





bcart180 said:


> Looks pretty good eh?


 


  HOW DOES IT SOUND??? I'LL BE USING THE HD650 WITH THE BIFROST AND THE VALHALLA....


----------



## mmayer167

@ leesure,   I just had a mini meet with the head-fier friends of myn across the bridge, I brought my frost/lyr and he brought his lcd-2 rev2. I will say it is the best i have heard any headphone sound. congrats on a killer setup. 
   
  M


----------



## bcart180

Quote: 





austin morrow said:


> HOW DOES IT SOUND??? I'LL BE USING THE HD650 WITH THE BIFROST AND THE VALHALLA....


 

  
  I had the Valhalla before I purchased my Lyr and I definitely liked that combination.  You wont be disappointed with the Bifrost/Valhalla/HD650!


----------



## lordfiend

I have been following the thread for a while. But have not seen Biifrost compared with Wired 4 Sound or Violectric V800. I know that Bifrost may not be in that segment of DAC's but I still want to know where it stands. Thanx


----------



## Moghedian

Quote: 





lordfiend said:


> I have been following the thread for a while. But have not seen Biifrost compared with Wired 4 Sound or Violectric V800. I know that Bifrost may not be in that segment of DAC's but I still want to know where it stands. Thanx


 
   
  I'm actually interested in this rather unusual comparison as well. I need a new source and I'm trying to decide if the extra money for a W4S DAC2 would be worth it over the bifrost which evidently punches well above its weight.


----------



## ninjikiran

I find it more funny that out setups are exactly the same, LCD-2 R1/Norse Cable +  Lyr system.
   
  I gotta say, the synergy with the LCD-2's is the best ive heard in this headphones lifetime.


----------



## sferic

Bifrost arrived today! 
   
  System: Mac Pro early 2008, Audirvana Plus playing Apple Lossless, SPDIF out, Bifrost (replacing Apogee Duet via Firewire), Lyr, LCD-2 (Rev 2) with Norse Audio Cable, and stock Grado PS 1000. 
   
  No click issues. This machine is extremely revealing. I will say the Apogee Duet (FW) holds its own, and I will keep it as it does inputs as well super high quality outputs.
   
  The big takeaway. When you get to this level of tweaking with great equipment, any small change can throw the whole thing into chaos.
   
  On the Lyr, I was happy with the Genelex/Gold Lion tubes. I bought the Cryoset 6H23Ns found them muddy. Then got the Norse Cable and went to Audirvana Plus, and found the Genelex thin, plus there was a noise problem in one tube, so I went back to the Cryosets and it was fine as long as the Apogee was on 96khz.
   
  Then the Bifrost came. Immediately impressed by:
  1) Don't try this yourself kids - but with Audirvana on pause, turned the Lyr up to 11, and absolute SILENCE. I've never dreamed of experiencing this kind of noise floor with any audio equipment. With the FW Apogee, I had substantial hiss and a tiny bit of hum. Totally acceptable by historical standards. 
   
  2) The separation and imaging was INTENSE.
   
  Immediately depressed by:
  The high end detail was lacking, and the over prominent bass was grainy. It reminded me of the Cryosets when I first got them. Muddy.
   
  So, I thoroughly deoxit-ed the Gold Lions, put them back in, and have to say, this is exquisite sound! The noise is gone for now, but will buy a new set if it comes back. The Bifrost just revealed (again) the problem with these Cryoset tubes. It's not super-forgiving, accept that.
   
  So, I'm thinking, if you have a great DAC already, don't expect miracles in terms of improvement, but it's a VERY solid machine with zero self noise, at an amazing price.
   
  And yes, the aluminum is whiter than the Lyr. Deal with it. Other than that they look adorable stacked.
   
  I've always gone by the philosophy of spend the max on transducers (speakers, mikes, phones) because it's a very stable technology. And have to say, it's served me well. 
   
  I think a Schiit AMP + DAC, and Audeze phones will get you to a place where you CAN hear subtle differences in cables, tubes, software etc. at a price point UNIMAGINABLE until now.


----------



## Austin Morrow

Quote: 





sferic said:


> Bifrost arrived today!
> 
> System: Mac Pro early 2008, Audirvana Plus playing Apple Lossless, SPDIF out, Bifrost (replacing Apogee Duet via Firewire), Lyr, LCD-2 (Rev 2) with Norse Audio Cable, and stock Grado PS 1000.
> 
> ...


 

 1) That separation is exactly what I am looking for on my HD650's.
  2) My Valhalla's top sparkle should somewhat makeup for that loss of high end detail. Big bummer on the bass though. HD650's + grainy bass = big letdown.


----------



## internethandle

I'd encourage some burn-in before weighing in entirely on any harshness/graininess. Bifrost changes pretty noticeably with time.


----------



## Misterrogers

Agreed. Bifrost - to my ears, benefits greatly from 100 to 150 hours of burn. 
  
  Quote: 





internethandle said:


> I'd encourage some burn-in before weighing in entirely on any harshness/graininess. Bifrost changes pretty noticeably with time.


----------



## davidastoria

Quote: 





bcart180 said:


> I had the Valhalla before I purchased my Lyr and I definitely liked that combination.  You wont be disappointed with the Bifrost/Valhalla/HD650!


 

  
  I've been trying to decide between the Bifrost+Lyr/Valhalla for my HD650.  Can you comment on your upgrade from the Valhalla to the Lyr?  My main reserve is that I have no intentions of getting ortho headphones so I'm not sure if the Lyr would be worth it or has the best synergy for the HD650.  I think I read on one of these threads that there's an increase of white noise on the Lyr due to sheer power.


----------



## bcart180

Quote: 





davidastoria said:


> I've been trying to decide between the Bifrost+Lyr/Valhalla for my HD650.  Can you comment on your upgrade from the Valhalla to the Lyr?  My main reserve is that I have no intentions of getting ortho headphones so I'm not sure if the Lyr would be worth it or has the best synergy for the HD650.  I think I read on one of these threads that there's an increase of white noise on the Lyr due to sheer power.


 

 I had no complaints about the Valhalla/HD650 combo.  You'll find on here that most people feel the same way.  I upgraded to the Lyr because I wanted to be able to roll tubes and change the sound signature.  Unfortunately, my wallet didn't agree with that decision!  As for the white noise, I have never experienced that problem.  Bottom line, if you get either the Valhalla/Lyr and pair with the HD650's, you wont be disappointed.


----------



## sferic

NO NO NO! I think people have misinterpreted my statement: "*The high end detail was lacking, and the over prominent bass was grainy*. It reminded me of the Cryosets when I first got them. Muddy"
   
  What I was trying to say, *is the Bifrost is VERY revealing*, and the Cryoset Tubes that I'd found OK before, were now totally unacceptable. 
   
  With the Gold Lions in my Lyr, the high end detail is totally glorious, and I'm listening right now with PS1000's which are high-end magnifying glasses (yeah, I'm old). And the bass is punchy and full.
   
  Bifrost>Lyr (with Genelex Gold Lions)>LCD-2 (Rev 2) = GREAT!
   
  My fault of course, the post was extremely wordy and way too long. Don't shy away from the Bifrost friends!


----------



## internethandle

Haha, sorry, I probably misinterpreted you, too. I think us new Bifrost owners are excited enough by our enjoyment that we're probably getting a little defensive. Apologies.
   
  Listening to a FLAC rip of Sparks - Kimono My House right now with my Bifrost - so lovely.


----------



## ninjikiran

Thought I would comment on clicking, in terms of audible click through the headphones it is non existent in my setup.  There is an audible click from the device itself though, I would also not boot up windows with the bifrost connected.  It forces multiple clicks if your running through spdif.   At least on my sound card.
   
  Shouldnt effect the device but is unneeded wear and tear.  Especially at the rate.


----------



## Squeezemenicely

My Bifrost arrived today, probably one of the first in germany.
   
  I do not use headphones and have a "normal" stereo set-up.
  The Bifrost really is an eye-opener, ok ear-opener. The soundstage is wide and deep, the Highs are clear, detailed and full of body, so not peercing. Bass is tight and exciting.
   
  It is very new to me and I have been trying a lot of classical music with high violins, they sound amazing. Music just sounds live and alive. 
   
  I have it connected to a Squeezebox Touch, the Bifrost is a vast improvement over the Touch - which many users are already happy with.
  Wonderful having an orchestra in your living room, where you have the feeling to hear exactly where all instruments are placed. The best way I can describe it is, a feeling of a live performance. Guitars also sound incredible!
   
  You might have guessed it by now, I am more than happy with the Bifost.
   
  Just one thing that I am not thrilled about - the very! bright light on the front. My Bifost is more less on eye-level in my Hi-Fi rack and I will need to find a way to cover it up.


----------



## sferic

You will ALWAYS know your Schiit is on, because they only use Military Grade Lasers for their power indicators which are capable of taking out enemy satellites!!! 
   
  I had that problem on the Mac Mini, since it sits right under the TV. I cracked it open and put a piece of green cellophane over the LED, now it's fine. That might be possible on the Bifrost too. Recent improvements in LED output have definitely been a mixed blessing. The worst offenders get the black electrical tape treatment. I've actually started to name the constellations when I turn the lights off in my bedroom, that's another way to turn lemons into lemonade. 
   
  Mine clicks (not thru the signal chain, it's a physical click) only when I open and close Audirvana on my Mac. Total non-issue.


----------



## paultel 2009

Quote: 





sferic said:


> ...I've actually started to name the constellations when I turn the lights off in my bedroom...


 

 ROTFL, I'm gonna start doing this too.


----------



## judmarc

Quote:


sferic said:


> NO NO NO! I think people have misinterpreted my statement: "*The high end detail was lacking, and the over prominent bass was grainy*. It reminded me of the Cryosets when I first got them. Muddy"
> 
> What I was trying to say, *is the Bifrost is VERY revealing*, and the Cryoset Tubes that I'd found OK before, were now totally unacceptable.
> 
> ...


 

  It's going to start showing a less merciless, more musical side after some burn-in.  I can tell you that mine continues to get better at over 100 hours.  Listening today to a rip of "We All Go Back to Where We Belong," an unreleased track from R.E.M.'s compilation CD "Part Lies, Part Truth, Part Heart, Part Garbage," Michael Stipe's voice and the entire production seemed absolutely clear and really beautiful.  I have no doubt it's a well recorded track, but I have other lots of other well-recorded material, and I think this is the best my system has sounded.


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





judmarc said:


> It's going to start showing a less merciless, more musical side after some burn-in.


 

 Too bad, I want a merciless DAC.  I want some cruel, vicious, resolving Schiit from that Statement DAC!


----------



## Misterrogers

I plugged an Audiophilleo2 into my chain as a USB to Optical converter - wow. This sidesteps the barely 'serviceable' SPDIF out of my MacPro and boy, does it really let Bifrost sing. Quite an amazing little converter.


----------



## sridhar3

Quote:


misterrogers said:


> I plugged an Audiophilleo2 into my chain as a USB to Optical converter - wow. This sidesteps the barely 'serviceable' SPDIF out of my MacPro and boy, does it really let Bifrost sing. Quite an amazing little converter.


 

 Glad you like it!  I have an AP1 myself, and I love it.


----------



## sferic

So in my journey, the Bifrost was so revealing I had to switch from my preferred tubes in the Lyr, to my previously preferred tubes, the Gold Lions. Problem is one of those GL's was bad, noisy. Got my replacement today and I'm REALLY digging this setup: Bifrost> Lyr(Gold Lions)>LCD2.2(Norse Audio Cable).
   
  Though I was skeptical, I'm beginning to believe there's something to this burn-in thing. My Apogee Duet was a definite pleaser, but the Bifrost out of the gate had far less self-noise. And tonight it's sounding positively sweet and almost 3-D.


----------



## Misterrogers

Very much. How are you powering yours?
  
  Quote: 





sridhar3 said:


> Quote:
> 
> Glad you like it!  I have an AP1 myself, and I love it.


----------



## sridhar3

Quote:


misterrogers said:


> Very much. How are you powering yours?


 

 Bus powered out of a Vaunix Lab Brick USB hub.  You?


----------



## Misterrogers

I have one on order  how do you find the lab brick? Can you hear the difference with/without?
  
  Quote: 





sridhar3 said:


> Quote:
> 
> Bus powered out of a Vaunix Lab Brick USB hub.  You?


----------



## sridhar3

Quote:


misterrogers said:


> I have one on order  how do you find the lab brick? Can you hear the difference with/without?


 

 I actually had the Lab Brick before I got the AP1, so I haven't compared it to USB straight out of my laptop.  So I can't really comment, unfortunately.  Maybe one of these days I'll give it a shot.


----------



## agisthos

This has been mentioned a few times, but I will re-iterate that the Bifrost improves with 100 hours or more of burn in. It just sounds more and more natural.
   
  DAC's are so easy to burn in, cos you can just set repeat on overnight and turn the volume down. Amps and speaker on the other hand...... It is possible you will never know what a speaker is capable of because come audiophile capacitors need 100's of hours break in at high current (decent volume), which is very hard to do in an apartment, unless you like to make enemies with your neighbours.


----------



## judmarc

Quote: 





anaxilus said:


> Too bad, I want a merciless DAC.  I want some cruel, vicious, resolving Schiit from that Statement DAC!


 


  This is always a bit of a difficulty when we talk in metaphors.  After 100+ hours burn-in, I found the Bifrost no less resolving.  There is in fact *more* information to go along with its resolving character, making the result sound more like real music (more "musical") and thus easier to listen to pleasurably for very extended periods (less "merciless").  
   
  At the very beginning, I found the Bifrost's sound a bit "thin" (some folks have referred to a lack of bass), and while the various instrument and vocal parts could clearly be picked out, somehow they didn't sound like an integrated whole together.  This or any other subtle wrongness or lack, together with good resolving ability, can make a component sound "merciless," that is, you hear lots of detail, but somehow it's not quite right.
   
  After burn-in, all the detail is still there, but you get the very subtle volume and phrasing changes and timing cues from the instruments and vocals that let you hear how everyone is playing together and playing off each other.  Also, no more thinness - there's the full, rich sound (on material recorded that way) of real musicians and singers.  No lack of bass.  So there's actually more audio information coming to you, but instead of sounding even more detailed and "merciless," that detail is coming to you in its full context.  There's a rightness to the sound that lets you just relax and enjoy the music rather than sitting there working to analyze what you're hearing.


----------



## nigeljames

Quote: 





judmarc said:


> This is always a bit of a difficulty when we talk in metaphors.  After 100+ hours burn-in, I found the Bifrost no less resolving.  There is in fact *more* information to go along with its resolving character, making the result sound more like real music (more "musical") and thus easier to listen to pleasurably for very extended periods (less "merciless").
> 
> At the very beginning, I found the Bifrost's sound a bit "thin" (some folks have referred to a lack of bass), and while the various instrument and vocal parts could clearly be picked out, somehow they didn't sound like an integrated whole together.  This or any other subtle wrongness or lack, together with good resolving ability, can make a component sound "merciless," that is, you hear lots of detail, but somehow it's not quite right.
> 
> *After burn-in, all the detail is still there, but you get the very subtle volume and phrasing changes and timing cues from the instruments and vocals that let you hear how everyone is playing together and playing off each other.  Also, no more thinness - there's the full, rich sound (on material recorded that way) of real musicians and singers.  No lack of bass.  So there's actually more audio information coming to you, but instead of sounding even more detailed and "merciless," that detail is coming to you in its full context.  There's a rightness to the sound that lets you just relax and enjoy the music rather than sitting there working to analyze what you're hearing.*


 

 Thats exactly what I hear with the NFB7. I could not have put it any better.


----------



## sphinxvc

Order # 666.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
   
  [I really hope it says that on my unit.]


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote:  
   
  Got it, I get what you mean now.  That's been my experience w/ some solid state devices.  They sound harsh, skewed and incoherent out of the box which tends to clear up.  I took merciless as resolving.  Some folks don't like to hear everything there is on a track.


----------



## Br777

when you burn in a dac, what components are necessary to be in the chain.
   
  for example could i just play music, with a cable plugged into the output that was not actually feeding into an amp, does an amp need to be there too?  do headphones need to be plugged in?
  I would think that as long as the dac thinks it is outputting, i.e. plug a cable into the outputs and thats it, that it may be enough.
   
  thanks


----------



## sphinxvc

Someone must be listening and more importantly, _enjoying_ the music too.  (Kidding)
   
  My guess is the unit needs to be on and decoding something, the analog stage should work the same whether or not RCA wires are plugged in [I stand corrected.]
  --
  Question for you owners: do the words _natural_, _non-digital_, and _analogue_ come to mind when listening to this; or is it far from that?


----------



## sphinxvc

By the way, I'm getting a CTH!


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





sphinxvc said:


> Question for you owners: do the words _natural_, _non-digital_, and _analogue_ come to mind when listening to this; or is it far from that?


 

 I think so.  Analogue means different things to different people though so I'll avoid that.  Specifically those ignorant enough to link it to distortion.


----------



## Argo Duck

Definitely sounds natural to me.
   
  I agree with Anaxilus' comment.


----------



## Kremer930

I would guess that you need to have the DAC connected to the amp to place a load on the line out amp circuitry when burning in. No need for headphones though. And music playing into the DAC. 
   
  What do others think?


----------



## rrahman

I think "burn in" only applies to moving components.  Since DAC's to my knowledge have no moving parts, burn in does not happen.
  Quote: 





kremer930 said:


> I would guess that you need to have the DAC connected to the amp to place a load on the line out amp circuitry when burning in. No need for headphones though. And music playing into the DAC.
> 
> What do others think?


----------



## Misterrogers

Sonic changes - what we're generally referring to when we say 'burn in" does occur in devices with capacitors in the output. It seems they need some time to 'bake' or 'settle' (time + heat) to fall completely in line with their design curve. The amount of time needed seems to vary based on the materials used in the capacitor. This at least, is my understanding of what's going on. Whatever it is, there's a noticeable change (improvement) with Bifrost when you hit > hours. 
   
  Ok. So we now have an opportunity to not drag this Bifrost info/impression thread off into the ditch on a religious debate about whether burn-in 'exists'. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
  Quote: 





rrahman said:


> I think "burn in" only applies to moving components.  Since DAC's to my knowledge have no moving parts, burn in does not happen.


----------



## Yikes

There is Mechanical Break-in and Electrical Break-in. A DAC and Amp Obviously don't have any Mechanical component, but obviously are fairly complex from an Electrical standpoint. Since most users in this thread are finding that the sound of the Bifrost is changing over the first hundred hours of use (give or take) let's assume for arguments sake that Break-in does happen. If you want to argue IF Break-in exists I'd suggest that you head over to the Sound Science Forum and enjoy the narrow mindedness of the Objectivist crowd.
   
  Speakers have both components of Break-in, Mechanical and Electrical. They have Drivers that have both Mechanical and Electrical (Wire in the voice coil) aspects and they have Crossovers of varying complexity that go through Electrical Break-in. The same can be said (to some degree) of most headphones, especially if they have Crossovers (Like multi-way IEM's).
   
  To thoroughly Break-in a component it needs to be functioning fully; A DAC needs to be decoding and driving a load (Amp/Preamp or a dummy load - 10k to 100k Ohms).


----------



## sling5s

I have about a 100 hours and I still feel the midrange is thin. This is where I prefer the NFB-3.


----------



## JahJahBinks

I recently ordered a Yulong D100, how's the Bifrost compare to that?


----------



## ecohifi

You do not have to have the amp turned on to "burn-in" a dac.  The output of the dac will be connected to a resistor network of the 1st stage device of the amp and this is what it would drive unless its a preamp with relay switching. 
  Capacitors in signal paths are mainly MKP or MKT and these are dry.  How you explained how it improves in SQ during burn-in with these has me baffled, unless they are electrolytic that are wet! 
  Temperature and heat generated against time should not change the value or the chemical and physical characteristics unless it is subjected to temperatures above the operating range.  In a dac, the temperature that these devices operate in is not enough to do this unless there is a fault condition.  There are some who experience improvement in cables; but as you increase heat on most metal conductors such as copper and silver the resistance increases, therefore the conductor is less effective!  I may agree that burn-in is real in NFB circuits like Audio GD,because of no -ve feedback applied, you will hear these improvements as temperature increases and that is due to +ve coefficents of BJTs.  I will also agree and confirmed that burn-in is real in valve circuits but still trying to prove that it is real for common SS with feedback applied.


----------



## Kremer930

Ecohifi.  How would you explain the change in sound though confirmed from such a wide range of people?  Just because you dont understand something doesnt mean that it doesnt exist.
   
  I am not meaning to start an argument or say this in a negative way.  Just saying that I personally note a change and have no idea why but am happy with the direction that the SQ is taking.


----------



## ecohifi

Quote: 





kremer930 said:


> Ecohifi.  How would you explain the change in sound though confirmed from such a wide range of people?  Just because you dont understand something doesnt mean that it doesnt exist.
> 
> I am not meaning to start an argument or say this in a negative way.  Just saying that I personally note a change and have no idea why but am happy with the direction that the SQ is taking.


 
  @Kremer930,
   
  I am happy that most people on this thread have notice improvements during burn-in, and apologised of the negative impact that what I have stated has upset you or anyone else, I have no way of establishing that improvements due to burn-in is noticeable, not yet!! 
 As a technical person and a DIYer I just want everyone to be mindful that this is the sort of stuff that is running in my head when burn-in is mentioned!!!


----------



## Kremer930

Thanks Ecohifi.
   
  Are any of the big name Bifrost reviews out yet, such as from 6Moons or Skylab?  I wonder if they make any mention of changes to sound character with time?


----------



## internethandle

Quote: 





kremer930 said:


> Thanks Ecohifi.
> 
> Are any of the big name Bifrost reviews out yet, such as from 6Moons or Skylab?  I wonder if they make any mention of changes to sound character with time?


 


  Srajan over at 6moons posted his Preview yesterday or so, so the review is forthcoming there:
   
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/schiit2/1.html
   
  And Skylab posted in this thread about a week ago with this:
   
   
  Quote: 





> I have been listening to the Bifrost, and will be working on the review write-up in the coming week, or maybe the week following.


 
   
  So no, not yet, but both should be soon.


----------



## ecohifi

Most reviewers including the ones that are mention are predictably going to say that SQ improve over on-time and I am sure that it will be the case for the Bifrost.  I dont think there is a measure for it and I am not doubting there isn't. Infact I actually do the "burn-in" on components even before giving someone my thoughts always.  Because I consider burn-in as a reference even though most times I have not heard the change as being an improvement unless it is that huge that there is no need for a comparision.    This is to be able to convey an account that is simular to the procedures before I give someone my impressions so we are all on the same wavelenght.


----------



## sphinxvc

Quote:


sling5s said:


> I have about a 100 hours and I still feel the midrange is thin. This is where I prefer the NFB-3.


 

 Ugh.  Deal breaker.  Dropped mine & picked up the NFB-3 that was sitting on FS instead for $100 cheaper.


----------



## Kremer930

Quote: 





sphinxvc said:


> Quote:
> 
> Ugh.  Deal breaker.  Dropped mine & picked up the NFB-3 that was sitting on FS instead for $100 cheaper.


 


   
   
   
  When you say dropped yours, do you mean that you sold your Bifrost or just changed your mind. It would be good to get your impressions if you had both.  
   
  So far I have owned an Audio-gd fun version A with the wolfson chips, a matrix I-mini, DAC magic and the Bifrost. There was not a lot between the matrix and the Fun but the dacmagic was a bit more musical and fuller in the bass. I personally feel that the Bifrost is a league up again. 
   
  So much so that I am even more impatiently awaiting the statement amp and DAC.


----------



## Anaxilus

Anyone else feel the mids are thin?  I hadn't noticed that particularly in my brief audition.  Then again I used some ToTL tube amps w/ them.


----------



## Squeezemenicely

Quote: 





anaxilus said:


> Anyone else feel the mids are thin?


 


  Absolutely not! I don't hear anything over or underpronounced. Many things have been written, loads of statements about the sound. The only way I could really describe it, it sounds "live" like the real thing and lively.
  After a short while you drown in the music and it just sounds natural.
  Every time I switch the music on, it still surprises me how "alive" the music has become.


----------



## Argo Duck

I did not/do not find the mids thin at all - and that's with the neutral (some have even said 'dry') Concerto. Piano was a good test for this for my ears. Very natural, bar what I noticed in the low to mid bass area. Couldn't decide whether Bifrost was missing something or MiniMax adding something.
   
  For sure the Lyr (stock GE6BZ7) thickens the (low) mids area slightly. Inclined to call this Bifrost/Lyr combination slightly dark at this point in listening sessions over the last 30 hours.
   
  I guess _if_ one finds the Bifrost thin, the Lyr gives a way to 'correct' this.


----------



## sphinxvc

Quote:


kremer930 said:


> When you say dropped yours, do you mean that you sold your Bifrost or just changed your mind. It would be good to get your impressions if you had both.
> 
> So far I have owned an Audio-gd fun version A with the wolfson chips, a matrix I-mini, DAC magic and the Bifrost. There was not a lot between the matrix and the Fun but the dacmagic was a bit more musical and fuller in the bass. I personally feel that the Bifrost is a league up again.
> 
> So much so that I am even more impatiently awaiting the statement amp and DAC.


 

 I mean I had Jason cancel the order and I threw the funds at the NFB-3 instead.  It wasn't just that comment, I did some PMing to gather some more impressions and they all came back "I wouldn't say it's bright...but"
   
  Using the transparent Objective2 I would rather lean toward the darkside than the brightside.
   
  If I had a tube-amp I would have stuck with the Frost.  Seeing as I don't have a Lyr, or something to "fix" a thin sound, I would rather go for the NFB-3 (which happened to be $100 cheaper on FS).


----------



## leesure

Quote: 





sphinxvc said:


> Quote:
> 
> Ugh.  Deal breaker.  Dropped mine & picked up the NFB-3 that was sitting on FS instead for $100 cheaper.


 


  Gotta say...you are the WORST about listening to what others say rather than forming your own opinions before changing and rechanging your mind!  You're only a few days away from a meet where you could have heard it and decided on your own.
   
  Listen for yourself...decide on your own what you like.  I know I was one of those who said "it's not bright, but..." and by that I meant is was like looking through a clear pane of glass rather than something that 'enhanced' the look.


----------



## Wedge

Listening for ones self is believing, unless you know for certain you share the same impressions of everything that the other person does, which I have not seen yet.  Even when people agree on here, they seem to really be in disagreement to some extent.  I like my Bifrost, I don't really feel like burn-in has changed much of anything.  Its a nice sounding DAC for the money, I certainly think it punches above its league, I don't feel like it punches 3x its league as some others might suggest but it definitely presents a great value and a great product.


----------



## WNBC

Yes indeed.  Very few of us use the same headphones, music, amps, and cables.  And even if we did there would still be difference of opinion.  If I had a need for a 2nd DAC I would think about getting the Bifrost and compare it to say my W4S DAC-2 which has an amazing USB implementation scheme.  For those claiming the thin sound I do wonder if it is the next part of the chain, the amp, that could be the culprit and whether increased gain could make a difference in the dynamics (albeit another expense one may not want).      
   
  They're saving that 3X punch for the statement DAC/amp.
   
  
  Quote: 





wedge said:


> Listening for ones self is believing, unless you know for certain you share the same impressions of everything that the other person does, which I have not seen yet.  Even when people agree on here, they seem to really be in disagreement to some extent.  I like my Bifrost, I don't really feel like burn-in has changed much of anything.  Its a nice sounding DAC for the money, I certainly think it punches above its league, I don't feel like it punches 3x its league as some others might suggest but it definitely presents a great value and a great product.


----------



## sphinxvc

Quote:


leesure said:


> Gotta say...you are the WORST about listening to what others say rather than forming your own opinions before changing and rechanging your mind!  You're only a few days away from a meet where you could have heard it and decided on your own.
> 
> Listen for yourself...decide on your own what you like.  I know I was one of those who said "it's not bright, but..." and by that I meant is was like looking through a clear pane of glass rather than something that 'enhanced' the look.


 

 Ugh.  You're right.  I dropped the NFB-3 and bought a clear pane of glass instead.  Saved even more money, incidentally.


----------



## Maxvla

Having had the Bifrost for quite a while now (well over a month) with it getting 6-10 hours of use every night, I'm not finding any changes to the sound. It's still as crisp and clean as the minute I first heard a violin bow cross a string with the Bifrost in the chain. Now that I have UERMs, I notice even more detail and appreciate the Bifrost's very smooth frequency response. I find nothing over-emphasized, or thin whatsoever. Have I heard better? Sure, but most of that 'better' is in the sound stage imaging precision (which is what those big bucks get you).


----------



## sampson_smith

Funniest and most practical thing I have read here, all week. Clear as mud!
  
  Quote: 





sphinxvc said:


> Quote:
> 
> Ugh.  You're right.  I dropped the NFB-3 and bought a clear pane of glass instead.  Saved even more money, incidentally.


----------



## drexman

does the bifrost sound better than your cambridge dacmagic?
  which DACs sounded better than bifrost and how much did they cost?
  Quote: 





maxvla said:


> Having had the Bifrost for quite a while now (well over a month) with it getting 6-10 hours of use every night, I'm not finding any changes to the sound. It's still as crisp and clean as the minute I first heard a violin bow cross a string with the Bifrost in the chain. Now that I have UERMs, I notice even more detail and appreciate the Bifrost's very smooth frequency response. I find nothing over-emphasized, or thin whatsoever. Have I heard better? Sure, but most of that 'better' is in the sound stage imaging precision (which is what those big bucks get you).


----------



## leesure

Quote: 





sphinxvc said:


> Quote:
> 
> Ugh.  You're right.  I dropped the NFB-3 and bought a clear pane of glass instead.  Saved even more money, incidentally.


 


  LOL


----------



## marcelo61

any news about the statement dac ?


----------



## Maxvla

drexman said:


> does the bifrost sound better than your cambridge dacmagic?
> which DACs sounded better than bifrost and how much did they cost?




The DacMagic shows it's age when compared to the Bifrost, no doubt. It's no contest. As to naming specific dacs that are better than the Bifrost, I would need time with them in my rig. I heard some really nice dacs (some built into cd players) like the one in the Boulder deck Ray Samuels brought that I am confident is leagues beyond the Bifrost, even without hearing it in my own rig. I myself am hoping I can get a similar sound from Schiit's statement dac as the Boulder gave me, so I can save about $24,000.


----------



## 45longcolt

As to the "thin" or "bass-shy" comments; with 150 hours listening through both phones and speakers I don't find the Bifrost to be either. It simply adds no mid-bass "warmth" like some other components, no "bloom" in the low bass (and thus no "bloat",) and it doesn't sound "analog" in the sense of rounding off the top end a little or veiling any detail.
   
  In other words, if you enjoy a romantic or beautiful presentation above all, this probably won't be your ideal DAC. If you like clarity, control and detail, I think you'll be happy. You might prefer it with tubes, and do experiment with cables if possible.


----------



## rmsanger

Need some quick/general advice on my setup, as overall I'm fresh off the boat when it comes to head-fi.  I ordered an AKG Q701 this weekend and have decided to pair it with the lyr & bifrost.  My audio sources will be my work laptop (Dell), wife's laptop (Toshiba R835-P56X), and Iphone 3gs.
   
  Have a few questions:
   

 Do I need to order any other cables/devices with this setup or should I be set with the standard?
 Was going to order 115V for both lyr & bifrost as I'm in the US, is this correct?
 On the bifrost there is a +$100 option for USB, do I need to select this so I can interface with the laptops?
 I saw another pic earlier in this thread where someone was using an Iphone/Ipod doc before feeding the bifrost.  Do you have a suggestion on what I should get or what that was?


----------



## grokit

The Lyr is excellent pairing with the 701, congrats!
   
  1. you will need a digital cable from your source to the BiFrost, and an RCA interconnect to connect it to the Lyr. I don't know what they come with or what your plan is for the digital connection
  2. yes
  3. yes unless your laptop has toslink, which some do
  4. these's a few options from Pure, Akai, Cambridge, Wadia, ALO etc. starting at around $100 for the Pure i20


----------



## rmsanger

Quote:


leesure said:


> Moved my Schiit to the Family Room.


 


   


  Quote: 





grokit said:


> The Lyr is excellent pairing with the 701, congrats!
> 
> 1. you will need a digital cable from your source to the BiFrost, and an RCA interconnect to connect it to the Lyr. I don't know what they come with or what your plan is for the digital connection
> 2. yes
> ...


 
   
  Thanks for the awesome advice!  Do you have any preferences on your answer question # 4?  The picture above I assume is the Pure i20 which seems to have decent reviews.  From there I can get a toslink cable to connect to the bifrost and am all set.
   
  On your answer to # 1 "you will need a digital cable from your source to the BiFrost".  How does this work for the laptops that do not have a toslink port?  Is it digital input at one end and USB on the other? Something along the lines of this:
   
http://www.amazon.com/NuForce-Impulse-Cable-performance-cable/dp/B003WRANYQ/ref=pd_sim_e_2


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





rmsanger said:


> Thanks for the awesome advice!  Do you have any preferences on your answer question # 4?  The picture above I assume is the Pure i20 which seems to have decent reviews.  From there I can get a toslink cable to connect to the bifrost and am all set.
> 
> _I haven't heard the Pure but the rest seem to be 2 - 3 times as much $; I would go with a coaxial cable personally from the Pure to the Bifrost rather than toslink_
> 
> ...


----------



## sferic

This machine gets your bits delivered as they were recorded. No upsampling tricks etc. The sound is anything BUT thin. If you listen to mastered in the early 80's pop CDs, they will make your ears bleed just as they did back then. If you listen to well-done digital age recordings they will wow you. 
   
  DACs are one of the more subtle contributors to the overall shape of a sound IMO. Your source is, of course, first and foremost. Next, your phones/speakers. Next the Amplifier. And if it's a tube amp, you have a bag of snakes full of further variables. Then, DAC, and lastly cables. 
   
  Once you've got a batch of state of the art stuff, and are arguing subtleties that non-insane people wouldn't notice, any change in the ecosystem might be revealing things you don't like about any other component. It's not always right to blame the new guy in the signal chain.


----------



## HK_sends

Quote: 





rmsanger said:


> Thanks for the awesome advice!  Do you have any preferences on your answer question # 4?  The picture above I assume is the Pure i20 which seems to have decent reviews.  From there I can get a toslink cable to connect to the bifrost and am all set.
> 
> On your answer to # 1 "you will need a digital cable from your source to the BiFrost".  How does this work for the laptops that do not have a toslink port?  Is it digital input at one end and USB on the other? Something along the lines of this:
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/NuForce-Impulse-Cable-performance-cable/dp/B003WRANYQ/ref=pd_sim_e_2


 
  I have a Toshiba laptop as well.  Just purchase a Mini-to-TOSLINK optical cable (like this: http://www.amazon.com/6ft-Toslink-Mini-Cable/dp/B000FMXKC8 ) and plug the mini end into your headphone jack.  Select "Digital Out" as your playback device and you should be good to go.
   
  Cheers!
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  -HK sends
   
  PS - The cable link I listed above was just for an example.  I'm sure there are may quality Optical Cables out there.  I got mine from here: http://www.lifatec.com/toslink2.html


----------



## rmsanger

Quote: 





hk_sends said:


> I have a Toshiba laptop as well.  Just purchase a Mini-to-TOSLINK optical cable (like this: http://www.amazon.com/6ft-Toslink-Mini-Cable/dp/B000FMXKC8 ) and plug the mini end into your headphone jack.  Select "Digital Out" as your playback device and you should be good to go.
> 
> Cheers!
> 
> ...


 

 Thanks but now I'm really confused!  So do I not need a bifrost with the +$100 USB option then if I get the Mini-to-toslink cable?  Seems like a good deal when you spend $6 on a cable and save the $100 option.  Is there no downgrade in data transfer by going this route?  Sorry for all the basic questions but want to make sure I'm making the most informed decisions!


----------



## grokit

Do all Toshiba laptops have the combo jack? Best to check your specs


----------



## internethandle

Quote: 





rmsanger said:


> Thanks but now I'm really confused!  So do I not need a bifrost with the +$100 USB option then if I get the Mini-to-toslink cable?  Seems like a good deal when you spend $6 on a cable and save the $100 option.  Is there no downgrade in data transfer by going this route?  Sorry for all the basic questions but want to make sure I'm making the most informed decisions!


 
   
  Laptops tend to be equipped with mini-Toslink ports, so he is suggesting that you go with this route because such a cable would allow you to connect to the Bifrost WITHOUT the USB addition option. In the experience of others on this thread, the Toslink output of the iMac et. al sounds worse than Toslink or Coaxial ouputs from elsewhere, as well as USB outputs, and is assumed to be high in "jitter" as a result. Your choice is therefore up to you, obviously - you could try the Toslink output of your respective laptop, and if you decide that the sound quality is acceptable, you can continue to use the Bifrost in such a manner without the USB addition. The Bifrost is designed in such a way that it is modular, meaning it can be added to or altered, so if you do not like the Toslink and Coaxial ouput options available to you sound quality-wise, you can purchase a USB board from Schiit later and install it yourself or have Schiit do so for shipping fees.


----------



## grokit

Here's a link to a current, middle of the road Toshiba laptop. The specs don't mention optical/toslink but it does have HDMI:
   
  http://www.toshibadirect.com/td/b2c/pdet.to?poid=2000013985


----------



## judmarc

Quote:


internethandle said:


> In the experience of others on this thread, the Toslink output of the iMac et. al sounds worse than Toslink or Coaxial ouputs from elsewhere, as well as USB outputs, and is assumed to be high in "jitter" as a result.
> 
> Your choice is therefore up to you, obviously - you could try the Toslink output of your respective laptop, and if you decide that the sound quality is acceptable, you can continue to use the Bifrost in such a manner without the USB addition. The Bifrost is designed in such a way that it is modular, meaning it can be added to or altered, so if you do not like the Toslink and Coaxial ouput options available to you sound quality-wise, you can purchase a USB board from Schiit later and install it yourself or have Schiit do so for shipping fees.


 


 Just a note on the first sentence above - I believe there are actual measurements showing high jitter from at least some Apple equipment's Toslink outputs; I don't think it's just an assumption.  I personally was happier with the sound through USB, but implementation is extremely important, and upthread I list several reasons why USB may be better for me but not necessarily others.  The folks at Schiit tend to like S/PDIF (which includes Toslink) over USB generally, but again, implementation is important.
   
  There are a some excellent pieces of advice in the past several comments, including (1) Make sure your laptop actually has a Toslink output before basing your system setup on using it; and (2) If it does have Toslink, you can try the Bifrost without USB first, then keep things that way if you're happy with the sound, or go for the USB add option if you aren't.


----------



## leesure

If you want to be sure about connecting your laptops, now and in the future, get the USB option.  
   
  Thats my setup you have pictured and I think the pure i20 is a great bargain especially when compared to the Wadia etc. when looking for a way to ge a digital signal from the iPod/iPhone/iPad. FYI, in addition to giving you audio out &  digital out (optical and coax) it also gives you video out for you iPhone.  Apple wants like $50 just for that connector.  Oh, and it also gives you remote control.


----------



## sphinxvc

Quote:


leesure said:


> If you want to be sure about connecting your laptops, now and in the future, get the USB option.
> 
> Thats my setup you have pictured and I think the pure i20 is a great bargain especially when compared to the Wadia etc. when looking for a way to ge a digital signal from the iPod/iPhone/iPad. FYI, in addition to giving you audio out &  digital out (optical and coax) it also gives you video out for you iPhone.  Apple wants like $50 just for that connector.  Oh, and it also gives you remote control.


 

 That thing is a great deal for sure, I picked one up last week.  Only drawback is the iPod not supporting 24/96+ hi-res stuff, but that's an Apple thing really.  It makes an excellent front-end otherwise.


----------



## judmarc

sphinxvc said:


> Quote:
> 
> Only drawback is the iPod not supporting 24/96+ hi-res stuff, but that's an Apple thing really.



 
Hey, that reminds me of another consideration in favor of USB: Many Apple laptops' Toslink outputs are limited to 24/96 resolution, while the USB connection will allow you to play 24/192 (but not 176.4 for some reason). 
 
If you're playing CD rips exclusively - 16/44.1 format - then this limitation isn't a bother.  But if you want to play downloads from high-res sites (e.g., HDTracks), then it might be more important to you.
 
Don't know if other laptops' Toslink outputs are commonly subject to this limitation.


----------



## sferic

I'm actually, viscerally, preferring my LCD-2 (rev 2's) to my Grado PS1000's for the first time ever tonight, in almost a year of owning both. System = 2008 Mac Pro Audirvana Pro>Lyr x Gold Lion Tubes>BiFrost Dac. The PS1000's always beat them on the accuracy, but with this combo the LCD-2's are displaying subtleties in the high-end I didn't think they could do. And the midrange & bass, which are not Grado's strong point, are simply astonishing.
   
  There's no simple answer to the audiophile dilemma. The variables include your own brain, and hearing apparatus, just to put it in perspective. One you've gotten deep enough to be a Head-fi.org denizen anything can throw you for a loop.
   
  1) I love this Bifrost machine
  2) It will make you re-evaluate other members of your signal chain in a totally new light
  3) What was the third thing?


----------



## sridhar3

Quote:


sferic said:


> 3) What was the third thing?


 

 3) ???
  4) Profit!
   
  Which LCD-2 do you have, r.1 or r.2?
   
  Thanks for the impressions.


----------



## xxhaxx

Quote: 





sridhar3 said:


> Quote:
> 
> 3) ???
> 4) Profit!
> ...


 
  Rev 2


----------



## ocswing

Quote: 





sferic said:


> 3) What was the third thing?


 

 EPA


----------



## sferic

LCD2, Rev 2


----------



## estreeter

Quote: 





sferic said:


> LCD2, Rev 2


 

 Man, I'm glad I waited for Audez'e to release the LCD-3. Now all I have to wait for is the 2K I need to buy a pair.


----------



## Butler

Polished up the ol' woodies just to show you guys the Asgard Bifrost combo. 

No pun intended.


----------



## lextek

Just wondering if the Bifrost throws much heat?  I'm using a Valhalla and it's toasty.  Conscerned about stacking.


----------



## Anathallo

I stack them, and yea it gets toasty for sure, but the Bifrost is still quite a bit cooler than the Valhalla.
  
  Quote: 





lextek said:


> Just wondering if the Bifrost throws much heat?  I'm using a Valhalla and it's toasty.  Conscerned about stacking.


----------



## Argo Duck

I've left my bifrost on continuously while doing my review listening - just checked; t's warm but not hot to the touch.


----------



## ninjikiran

I run it with the lyr stacked on top with no issue,.


----------



## mmayer167

^ ditto, Jason said, and i quote "stack away"... so stack em up on the stock feet and never worry!
   
  M


----------



## Butler

mmayer167 said:


> ^ ditto, Jason said, and i quote "stack away"... so stack em up on the stock feet and never worry!
> 
> M




Yeah and the Asgaurd is considerably hotter than either of Schiit's two other head phone amps, and he said it was fine to plop it on the bifrost. Think of it as an extended heat sink.


----------



## thrak

Quote: 





anathallo said:


> I stack them, and yea it gets toasty for sure, but the Bifrost is still quite a bit cooler than the Valhalla.


 

  
  my bifrost runs relatively cool.  it's the asgard sitting on top of it that is literally cooking.  after a few hours even the volume knob is hot (not warm or even toasty but flat out hot).


----------



## Austin Morrow

My Valhalla is quite the burner too. After a few hours, that thing is blazing. I'm surprised that the innards haven't been fried to bits yet. still planning on placing my Valhalla on top of the Bifrsot however since everybody says that it is fine.


----------



## olor1n

I hope the balanced mid-tier isn't too far away.
   
  Jason if you're reading this, what's likely to drop first, the balanced amp or dac?


----------



## Austin Morrow

Quote: 





olor1n said:


> I hope the balanced mid-tier isn't too far away.
> 
> Jason if you're reading this, what's likely to drop first, the balanced amp or dac?


 


   
  I'd like both at the same time please.


----------



## olor1n

I'm dac-less (lol) at the moment, so I'd prefer that to drop first. It's a daily struggle for me to not pull the trigger on something like a DacMagic Plus knowing the Schiit on the horizon.


----------



## Austin Morrow

I'll have to agree on that. It always seems to me like the Schiit stuff is always the most anticipated stuff since most everything they make sounds so amazingly well engineered for the price you pay on top of the performance you get. My own Valhalla with the HD650's is a excellent example of that.


----------



## agisthos




----------



## agisthos

I upgaded my Bifrost internal fuse to an AMR Gold Fuse. A fellow enthusiast told me he was shocked at the improvement an audiophile fuse did for his EE Minimax DAC. I was interested enough and purchased some from AMR, a British manufacturer of high end audio components who also make their own fuses. You get 3 in a pack of your chosen values, works out much cheaper than Furutech ones.
   
  So what was the verdict? Hell yes an improvement in every aspect. But I also upgraded the fuse in my Cambridge Audio player, which could be a contributor to the overall improvement. I am now convinced that fuses must be a limiting factor in the power supply of equipment. It makes me wonder how much better it will get by jumping the fuse directly with hookup wire. (No need to tell me how dangerous this is, but when was the last time you had to change blown fuses in your DAC or Optical disc player? I am not suggesting do this with an amp....)
   
  So while I had the case off I took some detailed internal pics as posted above. Modders go to town!! Interesting to note the AKM Dac chip is actually contained on the analog output board. The motherboard is purely that.......an interface motherboard.


----------



## Kremer930

For once I can look forward to checking out the next Schiit release rather than the usual anxious and impatient wait. I am really enjoying my Bifrost Lyr combo so much so that the wait for the statement gear release should be well controlled.
   
   
  Pretty soon though I will have to start planning the configuration for the amp and DAC.  The new Schiit should really wake up my HE6. Must stop thinking Schiit. Getting excited again.


----------



## Kremer930

Do you have a link to the fuses?  How much are they or the Furutech fuses?  Thanks


----------



## agisthos

I got them from here
   
http://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/gold-fuses-pack-p-6085.html
   
  Furutech and Hi-fi tuning do a few different ranges of fuses, but they usually cost $30 each up to $60 each for the Hi-Fi tuning black supreme. The Bifrost uses a 0.5A 5mm x 20mm slo blow. It is a tweak well worth doing but you will void your warranty.


----------



## livewire

OMG! What next??


----------



## grokit

Bypassing the fuse would definitely void the warranty, but substituting an "audiophile" fuse shouldn't.


----------



## Kremer930

Hmm. Warranty versus sound quality. Hmm. I may have to enquiry about those fuses for the statement amp and DAC. I doubt that Jason would want to disrupt production to put in fuses but he may consider offering them as options since there will be other options too. 
   
  What do you think Jason?


----------



## marcelo61

i use the  Hi-Fi tuning black supreme ,got it when it first came out for 35 bucks.indeed is the best $35 i spent on audio,it took the SQ to the other level


----------



## Jason Stoddard

Hey all,
   
  A couple of quick answers:
   
  1. Balanced amp and DAC--we're trying for a simultaneous release, but we'll probably be announcing in January, no earlier. If one comes first, it's the DAC. The DAC will be worth waiting for, especially if you're looking for a balanced-output piece. We're going to have at least one big surprise in store for you. Remember, all products from now on are "one and only" products--we won't release them unless they are unique in one or more meaningful ways. And yes, we know the definition of "unique."
   
  2. Fuses and other "special part" options--nope, we build them one way, and one way only. I've said it before, if you want to double the price, there's no better way than having a zillion variations on a product. It also makes service really, ahem, *interesting.*
   
  All the best,
  Jason


----------



## ninjikiran

Those fuses are sold like magical anti-aging drugs.


----------



## Vargtass

I'm in doubt-land myself, really hungering for a better dac than my Cambridge DacMagic, but kinda in need of both xlr and normal outputs on that dac. The Bifrost is a no-go per now because it lacks xlr's. 
   
  Eager to learn more about the next Schiit-dac, seeing as the bifrost is getting raving reviews.


----------



## Austin Morrow

Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> Hey all,
> 
> A couple of quick answers:
> 
> ...


 


  Awesome news on the simultaneous release for both the DAC and the amp. This will be quite exciting!


----------



## Kremer930

Thanks Jason.  Good to know that there will be something interesting to be announced on the intermediate DAC.  The better the performance on the intermediate the more I will anxiously anticipate the Statement gear.  I am already impressed with the Bifrost.  
   
  Thanks for the reply regarding fuse options.  Looks like we will have to take some bravery pills and say goodbye to the warranty if we want to try some audiophile fuses.  What has been your experience with them before?  
   
  So looking back on the year that has been with the release of the Lyr and Bifrost and the impending Intermediate gear... Would you say that the year was more challenging, more rewarding or more fun/stressful than you had anticipated?  Kicking back and riding on the tunes playing from my Schiit rig....I think that it has been an awesome year for you guys.  Well done and thankyou for all of your efforts.
   
  Cheers


----------



## internethandle

Funny that someone's already begun modding the Bifrost - not that I object to it, just interesting to see it happened so quickly. I'd be tempted if I could solder worth a damn, but even if I could a 5-year warranty is pretty generous for this price range and I'd like to keep it that way. Thanks for the better internal pics, though, especially given we can see under the USB board now! I'm too much of a wuss to open up my USB Bifrost, but otherwise I would to let everyone see a close-up of that, too.


----------



## 45longcolt

Hi Jason-
   
  Thanks for the update.  Could you provide dimensions for the new larger case? I ask because I'm laying out my next furniture project and want to make room for new units - the same case will be used for the statement rigs, too, right? Which I anticipate by about June 2012 (my guess).
   
  Anywho, clarification, please, on fuses. Will changing the fuse in the Bifrost (or amps) void the warranty?
   
  Oh, and will the the statement amp use tubes? And will they be recessed as on the Lyr, or stand tall as on so much other gear?
   
  Thanks again, and best wishes to you and all at Schiit.


----------



## olor1n

Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> Hey all,
> 
> A couple of quick answers:
> 
> ...


 
   
   
  Thanks for the info Jason. Fortunately the Audiolab M-DAC is still not available in Australia. That thing seems incredibly versatile and could serve as the hub for my new rig. I don't recall reading anything to indicate the Schiit dac will be as feature rich, so for me it'll come down to whoever reaches this market first to prompt an impulse buy. Race is on.


----------



## ecohifi

Quote: 





agisthos said:


> I upgaded my Bifrost internal fuse to an AMR Gold Fuse. A fellow enthusiast told me he was shocked at the improvement an audiophile fuse did for his EE Minimax DAC. I was interested enough and purchased some from AMR, a British manufacturer of high end audio components who also make their own fuses. You get 3 in a pack of your chosen values, works out much cheaper than Furutech ones.
> 
> So what was the verdict? Hell yes an improvement in every aspect. But I also upgraded the fuse in my Cambridge Audio player, which could be a contributor to the overall improvement. I am now convinced that fuses must be a limiting factor in the power supply of equipment. It makes me wonder how much better it will get by jumping the fuse directly with hookup wire. (No need to tell me how dangerous this is, but when was the last time you had to change blown fuses in your DAC or Optical disc player? I am not suggesting do this with an amp....)
> 
> So while I had the case off I took some detailed internal pics as posted above. Modders go to town!! Interesting to note the AKM Dac chip is actually contained on the analog output board. The motherboard is purely that.......an interface motherboard.


 

 Agisthos,
   
  if the dac shows no fault condition and is operating properly, then it is safe to bypass the  fuses.


----------



## agisthos

okay the bug has bitten I am doing it now.... i will report back if the sound is even better hardwired than with a audiophile fuse....
   
  I think the Bifrost is a perfect modders project. Base price is so cheap, and yet you can spend $50 on fuses, new caps and other mods and potentially see a big step in performance for such small outlay.


----------



## internethandle

Quote: 





agisthos said:


> okay the bug has bitten I am doing it now.... i will report back if the sound is even better hardwired than with a audiophile fuse....
> 
> I think the Bifrost is a perfect modders project. Base price is so cheap, and yet you can spend $50 on fuses, new caps and other mods and potentially see a big step in performance for such small outlay.


 


  lol - Jason I think you guys may have created a monster - look out MHDT Havana thread!


----------



## Jason Stoddard

Hey all,
   
  To clarify a couple of things:
   
  1. Thanks to the legal system in the US, we can't encourage anyone to open up their Bifrost (or Lyr, or whatever.) In fact, we have to say, for the record, "no user serviceable parts inside." Yes, there are people out there who would try to change a fuse with the product plugged in. And yes, people like that are *also* stupid enough to try to blame us for their mistake.
   
  2. That said, unless there are obvious parts swapped that were not meant to be swapped (as in, soldered into the board), we'd consider the warranty to be in place. Now, send us back a Bifrost that has a bunch of rework on it (even if it has the right parts), and you shouldn't expect the warranty to be honored. Also know that we will not provide technical support for any modified product.
   
  3. This past year being challenging, fun or both? Definitely both. We didn't expect to grow as fast as we did, and the biggest challenge has simply been in scaling up. Remember, we're still only 17 months old. And I'm sure everyone would want us to work out the ongoing backorder situation before we announce new products. That's why we've moved out a bunch of product intros, to make sure everything is in place so that 2012 is more predictable on the supply side. 
   
  And if you think 2011 was good, wait till you see 2012!
   
  All the best,
  Jason


----------



## judmarc

Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> We didn't expect to grow as fast as we did, and the biggest challenge has simply been in scaling up.  And if you think 2011 was good, wait till you see 2012!
> 
> All the best,
> Jason


 


 Hope you've shipped a Schiit-load of Bifrosts!  Really enjoying mine, and very curious how the statement DAC's sound will compare.
   
  Without revealing anything confidential, was there high demand for the Bifrost in particular, or was it demand for all your products that surprised you?


----------



## HK_sends

I know I've had a blast with all the Schiit products I have owned!  The Asgard was great and the Lyr is a rockin' ortho amp.  Now I can't wait for my Bifrost to ship!
   
  Cheers!
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  -HK sends


----------



## Edoardo

I'm already saving for a DAC/Amp couple I have just heard about and that God knows when it'll be released, basing on the words of its producer... Hurry up before I realize how insane I am...


----------



## Kremer930

Schiit either has some fantastic brand design and marketing or you guys are just great people.  Whilst it is probably both, and more, I can say that I am really excited for the course of Schiit over the next 12 months and beyond.  Schiit should be truly proud of itself and its achievements.  You have made many people that much happier....and that much poorer...albeit in a value for money kind of way.
   




  Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> Hey all,
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


----------



## ecohifi

Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> Hey all,
> 
> To clarify a couple of things:
> 
> ...


 
  Its good to see this mentioned!! 
  I believe a 5 yr warranty is offered as well!!!
   
  I'm happy for people that have heared improvements with these fuses and silver mains cables, but I am a real sceptic as there are no real explanations as to prove that it works!!!


----------



## ninjikiran

simply put, connect your amp or both directly to the wall vs using a cheap $30 surge protector. Note any changes if you hear any after many many trials,  If you can hear something invest in the fuse, if not don't bother.
   
  For the experiment to work better expect them to sound the same and stick with one method for a while before you switch.  Switching without expectations and hearing something is proof for you if not don't try looking for magical candy that doesn't exist.  You will find it but its a fraud.
   
  If you hear nothing you have just ruled out almost every single power tweak outside of replacing the entire power supply.  Next up is RCA cables, but its a little harder because most claim theres no difference till you hit esoteric prices.  So instead deal with a moderately priced headphone cable(be prepared to spend some cash for this experiment) and switch back and forth for a long period of time.  For me I think there was a slightly improvement between the stock LCD-2 cable and the 4w norse, but its also much lighter and comfy to use so end of the day it was a win regardless of sound differences.


----------



## ecohifi

Like someone said that if the equipment was poorly designed or very cheap components are used then these upgrades will obviously improve on SQ.  The makers of these fuses claims that it will even improve on your large flat panel and colors will be improved????  Interesting!!!
   
  If a fuse measures zero ohms, its zero ohms, and how this is an observed improvement especially on the primary side of the transformer is a little harder to digest, likewise silver mains cables.  I am not discounting these observations but I just cant see myself doing any of this. Sorry guys it  does not jell with me. & I am not going this path.   I understand any cables in the audio chain but thats it.  The makers also claim lower inductance, your step down transformer is a massive inductor and the inductance has to be bigger than whats in a fuse. 
   
  Its like this marker that when used on a CD edge improves SQ cause it reduces the reflection!!! OK!!!  & that was selling in an audiophile store!!!!  Dont know where they are now!


----------



## Zacwah

Pretty keen to get my hands on a bifrost valhalla combo.
  But
  I was told by schiit that i had to order my product through the Australian distributor.
  The aussie distributor is yet to receive stock of the bifrost. So why is it there are Aussies on the forums with bifrosts?
   
  Would have to say its Slighty annoying.


----------



## LuzArt

Quote: 





zacwah said:


> Pretty keen to get my hands on a bifrost valhalla combo.
> But
> I was told by schiit that i had to order my product through the Australian distributor.
> The aussie distributor is yet to receive stock of the bifrost. So why is it there are Aussies on the forums with bifrosts?
> ...


 

  
   
  Annoying alright.  I thought I was doing the right thing by waiting for ienjoy to have stock, yet as you say, there are a number of Aussies who have a BiFrost.  I'm all for Joe Public getting first dibs, particularly stateside, but worldwide I'd have thought using your local dealer was fair. Having a US citizen buy one for you and on-ship it is of course possible, but I've had one conversation with an Aussie who had it directly shipped to him from Schiit, he didn't want to wait.  Frustrating in the least.


----------



## olor1n

Can't you just place an order on the Schiit website? The cart was set up for shipping to Australia last time I looked. Do they cancel your order if you try to do this?
   
  When the mid-tier components hit I'm ordering from Schiit directly or not at all.


----------



## ninjikiran

Sitting in Daytona beach with many fine blond broads serving them drinks.
  
  Quote: 





ecohifi said:


> Like someone said that if the equipment was poorly designed or very cheap components are used then these upgrades will obviously improve on SQ.  The makers of these fuses claims that it will even improve on your large flat panel and colors will be improved????  Interesting!!!
> 
> If a fuse measures zero ohms, its zero ohms, and how this is an observed improvement especially on the primary side of the transformer is a little harder to digest, likewise silver mains cables.  I am not discounting these observations but I just cant see myself doing any of this. Sorry guys it  does not jell with me. & I am not going this path.   I understand any cables in the audio chain but thats it.  The makers also claim lower inductance, your step down transformer is a massive inductor and the inductance has to be bigger than whats in a fuse.
> 
> Its like this marker that when used on a CD edge improves SQ cause it reduces the reflection!!! OK!!!  & that was selling in an audiophile store!!!!  Dont know where they are now!


----------



## agisthos

Quote: 





ecohifi said:


> Like someone said that if the equipment was poorly designed or very cheap components are used then these upgrades will obviously improve on SQ.  The makers of these fuses claims that it will even improve on your large flat panel and colors will be improved????  Interesting!!!


 


 This is my exact experience after having changed the fuse in the blu-ray player. I would not say colors are richer, but there has been a removal of slight haze and grain from the picture. I wish you could see it, because unlike SQ, the differences in AV quality on a high end screen are really obvious because they are visual.
   
  But this is a thread about the Bifrost.....


----------



## agisthos

Regarding the fuse upgrade
   
  I am now getting a sound that is just purer and cleaner in every aspect compared to before. It is hard to quantify the total improvement..... but I can say this, changing the fuse to the AMR gold got me 70% of the way there, and jumping the fuse directly with Mundorf silver/gold hook-up wire got the last 30%.
   
  So if you are not confident in soldering, just upgrading fuse is absolutely worth doing. Males me wonder what the expensive Hi-fi Tuning Black fuse would do, perhaps it would be as good as direct wiring.
   
  I should mention, my mains power is particularly dirty here and any sort of power treatment and power cables have noticable changes (sometimes for the worse) on my system.


----------



## ecohifi

Quote: 





ninjikiran said:


> Sitting in Daytona beach with many fine blond broads serving them drinks.


 


 Now youre making me jealous, you know thats my main hobby, my 15 yr old daughter keeps wacking me over the head reminding me that I'm happily married!  Funny enough I keep forgetting!


----------



## 333jeffery

If I get brave enough, I'd like to try the fuse upgrade. Where is the fuse-holder located in the Bifrost? The Lyr could probably benefit from it, as well.


----------



## ecohifi

Quote: 





333jeffery said:


> If I get brave enough, I'd like to try the fuse upgrade. Where is the fuse-holder located in the Bifrost? The Lyr could probably benefit from it, as well.


 


 The fuses holder is located near the mains IEC plug and the transformer judging from previous threads,  beaware of the 5yr warranty and what I have said in previous post


----------



## HK_sends

WOOT!  Just got the shipping notice for my Bifrost!
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  Should be here before the end of the week.
   
  Cheers!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  -HK sends


----------



## rmsanger

Quote: 





hk_sends said:


> WOOT!  Just got the shipping notice for my Bifrost!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


   Lucky, I'm still "patiently" waiting for my lyr / bifrost combo...  Hoping it ships soon as I'm sitting with an un-opened set of Q701's.


----------



## sampson_smith

Get that profile filled out, rmsanger! What 'phones are you thinking of using with the Lyr/Bifrost rig?


----------



## Rawrbington

can anybody compare the Bifrost to the DacMagic?
  is there a clear winner?
  i'll be using it wiht a woo wa2 and digital coax out of my pc


----------



## mmayer167

^ lol he said he has a pair of q701 waiting to use with the lyr bifrost combo
   
  M


----------



## Argo Duck

Just posted, part 2 of my comparison of Bifrost-MiniMax and now Stagedac. See post 2.


----------



## Kremer930

The Bifrost is significantly nicer than the DacMagic.  It is easily more resolving and cleaner sounding.  Plus the Bifrost can deal with 24/196 on all inputs.  
   
  The current capability of the Lyr also works really well with the 701's.  I used the 702's for a while and then got the Lyr to run my HE6 and was surprised at how much fuller the bottom end was with the Lyr.  The HE6 are still nicer but I would have been happier with the 702's if I had the Lyr from the beginning.


----------



## TEH725

FYI, I also got my shipping notice.  Order #624 for those of you who may also be waiting.


----------



## sling5s

Anyone use a "Y" adaptor (one male to two female RCA) on your Bifrost to two headphone amps?
  I'm thinking about getting a Vampire Wire Y adaptor to hook up the Bifrost to two amps.


----------



## Rawrbington

my question about using those Y adapters is wouldn't you need 2 of them to run a second amp?
  i;ve thought about doing something similar just haven ever determined the best method to use two amps off one dac


----------



## sling5s

Yeah...definitely need a pair of Y adaptors (left and right).
 Hoping it works to save on buying another dac.
  Quote: 





rawrbington said:


> my question about using those Y adapters is wouldn't you need 2 of them to run a second amp?
> i;ve thought about doing something similar just haven ever determined the best method to use two amps off one dac


----------



## xxhaxx

Quote: 





sling5s said:


> Yeah...definitely need a pair of Y adaptors (left and right).
> Hoping it works to save on buying another dac.


 

 It would work


----------



## thrak

Quote: 





sling5s said:


> Anyone use a "Y" adaptor (one male to two female RCA) on your Bifrost to two headphone amps?
> I'm thinking about getting a Vampire Wire Y adaptor to hook up the Bifrost to two amps.


 

  
  I had the same problem in trying to connect my Bifrost to both my Asgard and Woo 6SE amps.  I decided to try the Vampire Y adapters and they work like a charm!  I haven't tried having both amps on at the same time, but with only one amp at a time I can hear no difference in SQ.  I went with the F type adapter (model #YF) as it would work better in my depth limited (shallow) "rack" and they worked out very nicely.  Be aware that the price ($24) on the Vampire Wire site is for a pair of adapters!  They do not mention this so I bought 2 just to be safe.  Now I have a spare set


----------



## sling5s

Great.  I bought the YF and than changed to regular Y. 
  I have the Bifrost to the Asgard and hoping to also hook up the Bifrost to Pioneer SX-737 or Lyr for the LCD-2. 
  
  Quote: 





thrak said:


> I had the same problem in trying to connect my Bifrost to both my Asgard and Woo 6SE amps.  I decided to try the Vampire Y adapters and they work like a charm!  I haven't tried having both amps on at the same time, but with only one amp at a time I can hear no difference in SQ.  I went with the F type adapter (model #YF) as it would work better in my depth limited (shallow) "rack" and they worked out very nicely.  Be aware that the price ($24) on the Vampire Wire site is for a pair of adapters!  They do not mention this so I bought 2 just to be safe.  Now I have a spare set


----------



## internethandle

Srajan over at 6moons just posted "page 3" of his preview for the Bifrost, which features some pretty good resolution pictures of the Bifrost internals, including the USB board (which he dismounted) and some comments on disassembly:
   
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/schiit2/3.html


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





internethandle said:


> Srajan over at 6moons just posted "page 3" of his preview for the Bifrost, which features some pretty good resolution pictures of the Bifrost internals, including the USB board (which he dismounted) and some comments on disassembly:
> 
> http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/schiit2/3.html


 

 Oh god, I hope Google translate has it's 6moons plug-in ready.


----------



## rmsanger

Thanks for posting!  I'm 688 and am currently on a status of "backorder"... I hope they churing out a good amount everyday as I'm getting impatiend.

  
  Quote: 





teh725 said:


> FYI, I also got my shipping notice.  Order #624 for those of you who may also be waiting.


----------



## judmarc

agisthos said:


> Regarding the fuse upgrade
> 
> I am now getting a sound that is just purer and cleaner in every aspect compared to before. It is hard to quantify the total improvement..... but I can say this, changing the fuse to the AMR gold got me 70% of the way there, and jumping the fuse directly with Mundorf silver/gold hook-up wire got the last 30%.
> 
> Makes me wonder what the expensive Hi-fi Tuning Black fuse would do, perhaps it would be as good as direct wiring.




agisthos, thanks for the idea. I won't have direct wiring to compare it to, but I've just ordered one of the Hi-Fi Tuning "Black" Supreme fuses, since the US distributor is less than 50 miles from here. Will let you know what I hear.


----------



## sridhar3

Quote:


anaxilus said:


> Oh god, I hope Google translate has it's 6moons plug-in ready.


 
   
  The one that removes all the bullsh1t?  If they applied that filter, it'd be a blank page with pictures.
   
  Anyway, I don't think they've invented that yet.  If they had, they'd be sitting on a gold mine.


----------



## HK_sends

Order #606...shipped yesterday and received today!  Of course I am only a couple of hundred miles up the coast...
   
  My system as of now...


   
  Sounds fantastic so far...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  Cheers!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  -HK sends


----------



## sridhar3

Quote:


hk_sends said:


> Order #606...shipped yesterday and received today!  Of course I am only a couple of hundred miles up the coast...
> 
> Sounds fantastic so far...
> 
> ...


 

 Congrats!


----------



## hp300plus

Quote: 





judmarc said:


> agisthos, thanks for the idea. I won't have direct wiring to compare it to, but I've just ordered one of the Hi-Fi Tuning "Black" Supreme fuses, since the US distributor is less than 50 miles from here. Will let you know what I hear.


 

  
  Curious myself and looking forward to your impressions, judmarc.


----------



## livewire

Quote: 





anaxilus said:


> Oh god, I hope Google translate has it's 6moons plug-in ready.


 






   
  They DO have a way with words!


----------



## TEH725

I'd be interested in your impression of the tuning fuse as well.
   
  I finally tried this on my power amp and perceived a positive difference.  Not as much as upgrading power supplies on various pieces of equipment or power cords, but a good bang for the buck difference.


----------



## Skylab

For those who are interested:
   
  http://www.head-fi.org/products/schiit-audio-bifrost-dac/reviews/5938


----------



## Argo Duck

^ It's a great review. Cheers Skylab.


----------



## mmayer167

^ditto


----------



## Kremer930

Nice work Skylab.  Easy to read and straight to the point. Thankyou.
   
  Could I ask how you find the quality differences between outputting from your dock compared to your Vaio?  
   
  I use the Onkyo ND-S1 with an aftermarket power supply and have that connected via optical and coax to the Bifrost.  I also use my MacBook Pro using PureMusic and outputting via USB to the Bifrost.   My order of preference is very easily USB then Coax.  I have used optical out of the MbP and it sounds very close to the SQ of USB to where it is close enough that I could use either but out of the dock and compared to Coax I just find the optical is that little bit edgier and sharp in the treble region.  The Coax is noticeably smoother.  The kind of sound that at first impressions makes you think that something is missing but then after a while you realise that it is all there, but just not playing in a 'Look at me' kind of way.
   
  I am really glad that there is a noticeable step up to the Van Alstine.  It gives a target to the Schiit statement Dac!!  Looking forward to seeing how much, if any, the intermediate Dac is able to close the gap.
   

  Thanks again for your review.


----------



## Skylab

Part of the "not as complete as I wanted it to be" is I really did not compare USB and Coax/toslink in any meaningful way.  I really didn't immediately notice much difference, and did not dig into it any further.


----------



## Kremer930

Understand Skylab. These comparisons take a lot to time to do properly. I was more interested in the Bifrosts ability to show up the difference in source. Ie PureMusic versus dock etc


----------



## olor1n

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Part of the "not as complete as I wanted it to be" is I really did not compare USB and Coax/toslink in any meaningful way.  I really didn't immediately notice much difference, and did not dig into it any further.


 


  Thanks for the review Skylab. Did you spend any time with the Bifrost fed into the Lyr and powering the LCD-2?


----------



## Skylab

Again, only briefly.  The Bifrost, being essentially free of frequency response colorations, isn't really amplifier picky, IMO.  Much more important will be amp-headphone matching.


----------



## Pudu

Thanks for this! Very high on my interest list.

Cheers


----------



## drexman

skylab, you also reviewed the Yulong D100 which costs the same as Bifrost. how do they compare?


----------



## gasmd

i want to know how it compares with the benchmark dac 1!


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





drexman said:


> skylab, you also reviewed the Yulong D100 which costs the same as Bifrost. how do they compare?


 

 Unfortunately I haven't had the Yulong in much to long to be able to compare them.


----------



## Markhead

A question for Pure i20 users with the Bifrost. How much of an upgrade is the Bifrost compared to using the internal dac of the i20? What sound differences do you hear?


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





markhead said:


> A question for Pure i20 users with the Bifrost. How much of an upgrade is the Bifrost compared to using the internal dac of the i20? What sound differences do you hear?


 


  It's not even close.  The built in DAC to the Pure is only fair at best.  Pretty grainy/lacking in transparency.  It will do in a pinch, but it's not very good.  The Pure's strength is as a digital dock, not as a DAC.


----------



## 45longcolt

Skylab - Thanks for a trenchant and readable review. You hit the high points nicely, and I would agree that the Bifrost only sounds "thin" in comparison with more colored DACs (like my old PS Audio DL III, which sounds more "analog" but less immediate.) Also seems like we have similar tastes in music. Dunno about you, but I'm really looking forward to the top end Schiit DAC (and amp.)


----------



## Austin Morrow

Quote: 





hk_sends said:


> Order #606...shipped yesterday and received today!  Of course I am only a couple of hundred miles up the coast...
> 
> My system as of now...
> 
> ...


 

 Awesome!!!! Congrats!!!! I'm quite jealous....


----------



## TEH725

While I wait for delivery of my Bifrost, I am looking at cables / interconnects.
   
  Is everyone running the standard power cable?  Given the power supply, I would not expect to need an upgrade here but it made a audible difference on the TeraDac external power supply I tweaked for use with the ND-S1 (have to lower the voltage via internal pot).
   
  I'm running monster digital coax ($40) from a ND-S1 to the DAC and then some cheap sheilded RCA cables to the amp ($15).  Any sub-$100 suggestions are appreciated.


----------



## tkteo

I'm using the Chord entry level power cable. Some here use the Shunyata Venom 3, also entry level.


----------



## internethandle

Quote: 





teh725 said:


> While I wait for delivery of my Bifrost, I am looking at cables / interconnects.
> 
> Is everyone running the standard power cable?  Given the power supply, I would not expect to need an upgrade here but it made a audible difference on the TeraDac external power supply I tweaked for use with the ND-S1 (have to lower the voltage via internal pot).
> 
> I'm running monster digital coax ($40) from a ND-S1 to the DAC and then some cheap sheilded RCA cables to the amp ($15).  Any sub-$100 suggestions are appreciated.


 

  
  I'm using one of those "Iron Lung Jellyfish" power chords, which is basically just a hospital grade power chord that's been cryo treated. Hard to tell how much of a difference it's making given that I've used it the whole time with the Bifrost. It's coming from a Audio-GD Power Supply Filter outlet strip with the Bifrost plugged into one of the -70DB outlets. I'm planning on upgrading the chord also at some point, probably to the Venom 3 (Shunyata). For RCA interconnects I'm using some Blue Jeans Cable LC-1's, which I'd like to upgrade to some Audioquest King Cobra's at some point (or perhaps something else), but again, probably in the future. Blue Jeans Cable's cables are pretty well made/regarded.


----------



## TEH725

Thanks.
   
  I'm using Crump cords I made for everything and will probably try one of those first to see what difference they make.  I think these are comparable to the Jellyfish cords in a review I read somewhere.  Also, I've been looking at/leaning towards the Blue Jeans cables for both digital coax and rca.


----------



## mmayer167

TEH725 \/
   
  I'm using the simple 10amp white power cord from soundstring. I have had it since I first got my asgard 2 years ago (asgard now gone) and really like it for its build quality and feel. As for the sound, idk placebo says it sounded better but not much at all 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. It comes in pretty cheap, I think its 30? 
   
  I'm using an AudioQuest Forest USB and really like it, again for its simple clean build and feel. Again placebo says it sounds better to me, but idk its a digital signal, you know the whole on/off argument.
   
  Lastly I have the blue jeans lc-1 interconnects and really like them. I recently ordered a Signal Cable "Analog two" to compare to the Blue Jean cable. It should be here today. My main reason for this is the new cable will be 2 feet instead of the 6 feet of blue jeans cable I feel is excessive for connecting the bifrost to the lyr. 
   
  These are all pretty cheap options imo, for me they put my mind at ease for cable upgrades 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  M


----------



## sampson_smith

Another nod for Blue Jeans cables. I love both their toslink optical and lc-1 RCA interconnects.


----------



## Defiant00

Mine's not here yet, but I'm going to be using the provided power cord and monoprice cables as I personally don't think cables make a difference unless they're made of different material (silver) or just really bad quality (actually dropping signal).


----------



## HK_sends

I'm using Q-Audio interconnects and a Lifatec Siflex Glass Mini-to-TOSLINK optical cable. ...All with the stock power cord.
   
  Cheers!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  -HK sends


----------



## 45longcolt

For a power cord, the Shunyata at $95 is well worth it in my experience. Makes a bigger difference with amps than with DACs or players, but I say take every advantage.
   
  As to interconnects, I'm using (and liking) Nordost Baldur RCAs. Also using the Black Cat for coax, not too pricy.
   
  Fair warning, comparing wires can lead to madness...not to mention debt...


----------



## Misterrogers

The Lifatec Siflex glass optical is one awesome cable. Make a noticeable difference when it replaced my Blue Jeans optical. Which Q-Audio IC's are you using? I took a pass at some silver IC's (Silver Lace and Guerrilla) but went back to my Blue Jeans LC-1's. I want the detail of silver, without the glare and minimized bass impact. I'm thinking about trying the Palladium. I've read really good things.
  
  Quote: 





hk_sends said:


> I'm using Q-Audio interconnects and a Lifatec Siflex Glass Mini-to-TOSLINK optical cable. ...All with the stock power cord.
> 
> Cheers!
> 
> ...


----------



## mmayer167

The Signal Cable (analog 2) just got here and after roughly an hour of listening after running the blue jeans all morning the signal cable analog 2 is clearly better. I am linking a review which hits it on the head as far as what i'm hearing. 
   
http://www.head-fi.org/t/55418/check-out-signal-cables-analog-two-ic
   
   
  Alright, enough d-rail of this thread. 
   
  M


----------



## Blind Man

Is anyone aware how bad the backorder waitlist is right now? Days/Weeks?
   
  Thinking of picking one up when I'm in Florida over the break but will only have a 2week window to get it


----------



## Austin Morrow

Quote: 





blind man said:


> Is anyone aware how bad the backorder waitlist is right now? Days/Weeks?
> 
> Thinking of picking one up when I'm in Florida over the break but will only have a 2week window to get it


 
   
  It seems really bad right now. Last time I talked to Jason, which was about a month ago. He was sold out within the day. These things are selling like hot cakes. It's quite remarkable to be honest with everyone here. Their marketing team is absolutely incredible with how they are operating behind the scenes.


----------



## TEH725

Yeah, sorry for the going OT.  Just trying to get this crossed off my list.  Thanks for the input on cables.  I'm not going to go too crazy, but what I have now was an impulse purchase at Radio Shack because I had just received my first stand alone DAC.
   
  Prior to this, upgrading my DAC was top of my list.
   
  And the order times, take a look at your order number.  I am #624 and its supposed to arrive today, but I have my doubts.  FedEx has not updated the status since Wednesday.


----------



## HK_sends

Quote: 





misterrogers said:


> The Lifatec Siflex glass optical is one awesome cable. Make a noticeable difference when it replaced my Blue Jeans optical. _*Which Q-Audio IC's are you using?*_ I took a pass at some silver IC's (Silver Lace and Guerrilla) but went back to my Blue Jeans LC-1's. I want the detail of silver, without the glare and minimized bass impact. I'm thinking about trying the Palladium. I've read really good things.


 
  I just bought the interconnects listed on Steve's site: http://www.q-audio.com/  the RCA-to-RCA cables.  In fact all of my cables are from Q except the Siflex; the headphone cable, inteconnects, and I even custom ordered a mini plug-to-RCA interconnect so I could plug my Cowon J3 player straight into my Lyr amp.
   

   
  Cheers!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  -HK sends


----------



## ninjikiran

Quote: 





austin morrow said:


> It seems really bad right now. Last time I talked to Jason, which was about a month ago. He was sold out within the day. These things are selling like hot cakes. It's quite remarkable to be honest with everyone here. Their marketing team is absolutely incredible with how they are operating behind the scenes.


 


  Its not only marketing, the product itself is really well made.  For the price its a steal~


----------



## lextek

Man I'm thinking about buying a non-USB Bifrost for probaly the wrong reason.  I have the CA DACMagic now feeding my Valhalla and it sounds great.  But the Bifrost would look sooo much better with my other Schiit....


----------



## hp300plus

Quote: 





lextek said:


> Man I'm thinking about buying a non-USB Bifrost for probaly the wrong reason.  I have the CA DACMagic now feeding my Valhalla and it sounds great.  But the Bifrost would look sooo much better with my other Schiit....


 


  Based upon the comparisons with the DacMagic, the Bifrost will also sound better too.  
   
  I've had my Bifrost for several weeks now (I think I was part of the original shipments) and absolutely love it compared to my old NuForce uDac2.


----------



## sampson_smith

It is also quite a bit better than the Nuforce HDP (which is quite a bit better than my u-DAC2), based on my rather limited aural memory. Lets just say that the Bifrost makes me very content. The HDP (and Dacmagic and V-DAC, for that matter) made me question what I was hearing. Now I simply listen to the music for enjoyment only.


----------



## lextek

Does the Bifrost have diferent filters like DACMagic?  I actually prefer less options.


----------



## gasmd

Has anyone AB'ed the SPDIF vs. the USB from their computer to the bifrost?  I am questioning the realism of cymbals from my setup of PC -> spdif bifrost and am wondering if it's from jitter..  Unfortunately I do not have the USB option of my bifrost and am wondering if I should get the add on (or wait for the statement dac lol)


----------



## internethandle

Yes, if you look at judmarc's posts you'll see he's posted plenty about coax/toslink versus USB with his Bifrost, and he prefers USB. However, he pointed out he's using an upgraded USB cable (Audioquest Carbon USB). I also have a USB-enabled Bifrost, but haven't compared the USB to coax as I don't have a coax cable handy (or toslink). I'm using a Furutech GT2 USB cable from my computer to my Bifrost.

  
  Quote: 





gasmd said:


> Has anyone AB'ed the SPDIF vs. the USB from their computer to the bifrost?  I am questioning the realism of cymbals from my setup of PC -> spdif bifrost and am wondering if it's from jitter..  Unfortunately I do not have the USB option of my bifrost and am wondering if I should get the add on (or wait for the statement dac lol)


----------



## internethandle

Quote: 





lextek said:


> Does the Bifrost have diferent filters like DACMagic?  I actually prefer less options.


 


  No, it doesn't. Part of the design philosophy was "bit-perfect"/non-over or upsampled data being delivered to the DAC chip, so there aren't any phasing options etc.


----------



## Kremer930

I am using a silver USB cable and glass fibre optic cable and prefer the USB out of my mac. I use PureMusic but with classic NOS sound and no upsampling. 
   
  Jason suggests that USB should not sound as good as the other two but I prefer it. 
  Quote: 





gasmd said:


> Has anyone AB'ed the SPDIF vs. the USB from their computer to the bifrost?  I am questioning the realism of cymbals from my setup of PC -> spdif bifrost and am wondering if it's from jitter..  Unfortunately I do not have the USB option of my bifrost and am wondering if I should get the add on (or wait for the statement dac lol)


----------



## Misterrogers

spdif or USB - these have a lot to do with the quality of the electronics in our source. On my MacPro and MacBookPro, spdif out is limited to 24/96 and has fairly high jitter. It was my preferred port until switching to Audiophilleo and a AudioQuest Carbon USB cable. Then, the combined Audiophilleo implementation and cable exceeded spdif. I imagine that Schiit tests their spdif/optical implementation with transports with higher quality output than the typical computer spdif implementation. My sense is that's why they think their spdif implementation better.
  
  Quote: 





kremer930 said:


> I am using a silver USB cable and glass fibre optic cable and prefer the USB out of my mac. I use PureMusic but with classic NOS sound and no upsampling.
> 
> Jason suggests that USB should not sound as good as the other two but I prefer it.


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





misterrogers said:


> spdif or USB - these have a lot to do with the quality of the electronics in our source. On my MacPro and MacBookPro, spdif out is limited to 24/96 and has fairly high jitter. It was my preferred port until switching to Audiophilleo and a AudioQuest Carbon USB cable. Then, the combined Audiophilleo implementation and cable exceeded spdif. I imagine that Schiit tests their spdif/optical implementation with transports with higher quality output than the typical computer spdif implementation. My sense is that's why they think their spdif implementation better.


----------



## gasmd

I've been trying to do a search on what jitter sounds like and it seems there is no consensus other than the sound is not as transparent, which isn't really much to say lol.


----------



## lextek

Quote: 





gasmd said:


> I've been trying to do a search on what jitter sounds like and it seems there is no consensus other than the sound is not as transparent, which isn't really much to say lol.


 

  
   
  Maybe we should have a poll on who can hear jitter?


----------



## lextek

My old "tin" ears can't


----------



## Rope

Jitter has been an audio non issue for 15 plus years.


----------



## ninjikiran

most people won't detect a difference between spdif and USB.  I know I don't if they are both implemented properly, but then people will start blaming my USB cable for not costing more than the USB interface car itself so I don't bother arguing it.  A poor USB implementation can be downright ugly though.
   
  I went back to sound cards, and have my juli@ hooked up to my Bifrost, if I got a USB interface again I would probably just get a Audiophileo.  Or pay $100 for the bifrost add on card.


----------



## olor1n

nvm


----------



## sridhar3

Quote:


lextek said:


> Maybe we should have a poll on who can hear jitter?


 

 The Audiophilleo1 has a neat "Jitter Simulator" feature, which lets you hear how jitter sounds.  It's hard to describe.


----------



## ex0du5

Well, I had to decide in between a Burson HA-160 combo and Bifrost, or the all-in Burson HD-160D for around the same price. I went for the combo...hopefully that wasn't a big mistake.
   
  Alright...made a decision. Going with the HA-160D for now, and am strongly going to be considering the higher end Schiit DAC when it comes out. I'm very anxious to see how it turns out.


----------



## Austin Morrow

Quote: 





ex0du5 said:


> Well, I had to decide in between a Burson HA-160 combo and Bifrost, or the all-in Burson HD-160D for around the same price. I went for the combo...hopefully that wasn't a big mistake.
> 
> Alright...made a decision. Going with the HA-160D for now, and am strongly going to be considering the higher end Schiit DAC when it comes out. I'm very anxious to see how it turns out.


 


  Why not the Burson HA-160DS? Forget the pre-amp....


----------



## judmarc

Quote: 





gasmd said:


> I've been trying to do a search on what jitter sounds like and it seems there is no consensus other than the sound is not as transparent, which isn't really much to say lol.


 


  You didn't go back far enough.  A number of AES (Audio Engineering Society) papers on this were published when it first became a "hot issue" around the time CDs came out as a playback medium.  There are two primary audio effects: (1) A higher "noise floor," which is the same as reduced dynamic range; and (2) intermodulation distortion.


----------



## rmsanger

thinking about hitting the cancel button on my lyr/bifrost order tomorrow if I don't see an update.  2 weeks on "backorder" status with my headphones sitting here in an un-opened box is frustrating!  I could have bought used way long ago and had these things broken in already...


----------



## lextek

Quote: 





rmsanger said:


> thinking about hitting the cancel button on my lyr/bifrost order tomorrow if I don't see an update.  2 weeks on "backorder" status with my headphones sitting here in an un-opened box is frustrating!  I could have bought used way long ago and had these things broken in already...


 


  Why don't you give them a call/email and see if you can get an ETA?  Seems like it would be worth the wait....


----------



## judmarc

*Hi-Fi Tuning Fuse*
   
  I've now had time to substitute the Hi-Fi Tuning fuse, do some, though not a lot of, "burn-in," and listen to the results.  I really prefer to do my comparisons with very little time elapsed between the sources to be compared.  I recall once reading that "audio memory" is limited to something like 30 seconds.  But I wasn't able to open up the Bifrost's case (*lots* of screws) and make the switch in anything like 30 seconds, and unfortunately wasn't able either to do a "before" listening test with the stock fuse as I had planned immediately before the switch.  I'm going on memories of the sound with the stock fuse a day or more prior to listening sessions with the Hi-Fi Tuning fuse, with all the associated pitfalls and potential for hearing my expectations rather than reality.  So please take my impressions with all due caution and skepticism.
   
  - Yes, I think there is an improvement with the Hi-Fi Tuning fuse.  Not absolute night and day, but an improvement.
   
  - Examples:
   
  -- In general, I am noticing a greater difference between high-resolution downloads or DVD-A rips on the one hand and CD rips on the other hand than I did before the fuse replacement, even though the CD rips also seem to sound better.  Jazz saxophonist Jan Garbarek has recorded three albums with the choral group The Hilliard Ensemble at the St. Gerold Monastery.  (You wouldn't think saxophone improvisations wailing over medieval choral music would work, but it's got a sort of primitiive, eerie majesty.)  I have two, the earlier, Officium, in 16/44.1 resolution, the later, Officium Novum, in 24/96.  Both are beautifully recorded, but listening over the past couple of days it's quite evident that the higher-resolution recording has an even more realistic presentation of Garbarek's saxophone and captures even more of the acoustic space of the monastery (longer decay time until the echoes become inaudible).  Another example is George Harrison's All Things Must Pass.  My wife and I have been listening to the LP forever.  The 24/96 download has plenty of detail, but just seemed to be missing a bit of the rocking energy of the band playing together vs. the vinyl.  The sound of the download is now fully up to the LP in that department, as well as in details like the acoustic guitar strumming on Apple Scruffs.  In fact there are details that never emerged before on the LP or the download, like the perfect slap-jangle of Ringo Starr's tambourine on If Not For You.
   
  -- The sound of CD rips is also improved.  We All Go Back To Where We Belong, the "single" from REM's career retrospective final album, is an excellent recording as well as a beautiful song, and has become a new favorite of mine.  Michael Stipe's voice had always been very clearly presented by the Bifrost, but now sounds almost startlingly real, with that last little touch of Stipe's plaintive nasality.  There's a line in the song, "I dreamed that we were elephants," where Stipe had formerly seemed to almost swallow the last syllable.  Now, though the level of that "-phunts" is indeed a notch lower than the rest of the line, I can hear it clearly.  On Gillian Welch's The Harrow And The Harvest, the song Down Along The Dixie Line frankly had felt a little slow paced and boring.  Now the voices and backing guitars seem to come through with an extra clarity and musicality that give the song a stately, austere beauty.
   
  - So is it worth it?  The single fuse cost more than 10% of the price of the Bifrost (with USB) itself, so in relative terms the expense is just insane.  It's clear why Schiit could never have reasonably thought of including it in a product built to the vicinity of the Bifrost's price point.  In absolute terms,however, for a lot of people 50 dollars is not a huge amount of money.  (Of course the Schiit balanced DAC may sound even better for not much more money, but that's in the future and the Bifrost is here.)  For me, the question is, given what I believe I'm hearing now (sorry to keep emphasizing the provisional nature of my conclusions, but because I did not have the opportunity for a more direct comparison I think that's necessary), would I do it again?  Yes, I would.


----------



## internethandle

Thanks for impressions, judmarc - was waiting to hear a second opinion before considering a fuse upgrade. Was it obvious to you which direction to install the fuse? I've heard conflicting things about the hifi-tuning fuses in that regard, some implying that there's a "correct" direction they're supposed to be installed in, others that it depends on personal preference in terms of SQ (even read a few fuse upgrade reviews where people say they were disappointed with their upgrade until they switched the direction).
   
  Right now my tweak "priority" list goes something like:
   
  1. new cable for my hd 600's
  2. SOtM SATA filter/fan filter
  3. isolation feet for the Bifrost/amp
  4. shunyata venom 3
  5. fuse upgrade
  6. perhaps an Alan Maher product (circuit breaker filter, maybe), unsure
   
  May bump up the fuse, depending, since it'll be cheaper than the SATA filter by a margin (or the Shunyata cable, for that matter).


----------



## TEH725

I can't speak for the bifrost (yet), but changing fuse direction in my amp made a slight difference to me, mostly on the high end.  Again, impossible to A-B test, but listening to my test songs after, I was able to hear things I didn't hear previously so I now have left it in the current direction.  I think on the newer Hi-Fi Tuning fuses, there is a direction indicator.


----------



## judmarc

Hah!  Got to admit I missed any fuse direction indicator completely.  (*Now* they tell me.)  It's sounding good, so I don't know that I'm motivated to open the unit up again to check.


----------



## allenwijaya

Hi,
   
  im currently interested to purchase bifrost as a dac for my setup Destkop>bifrost>graham slee solo SRG II>senn HD 650, however i still cant decide whether should i get bifrost or HRT music streamer II+ or dac mini.
   
  can anyone give me more information if bifrost is better than the others.
   
  thanks


----------



## TEH725

Just looked at a picture of the fuse version I have and it has a direction arrow on it as well.  So point the arrow towards the direction of the current (towards the power supply).
   
  I am to receive my Bifrost today.  It's on the truck out for delivery.  Unfortunately, I won't be able to listen to it much before I get on a plane for San Fran later this week.


----------



## TEH725

Check out the user comments/reviews on the first page of the thread.  There is a comparison to the Streamer about 7 or 8 comments down.


----------



## pseudohippy

Quote: 





allenwijaya said:


> Hi,
> 
> im currently interested to purchase bifrost as a dac for my setup Destkop>bifrost>graham slee solo SRG II>senn HD 650, however i still cant decide whether should i get bifrost or HRT music streamer II+ or dac mini.
> 
> ...


 

 I much prefer the bifrost over my MSII+. Now that being said if you like more bass and a slightly warmer sound then the MSII+ may be the ticket. The extra bass I hear with the MSII+ is somewhat bloated though. The Bifrost probably has just as much bass but it sounds much cleaner and correct which kinda gives the impression of being less. I dont talk audiophile so take it for what its worth. The Bifrost is all around cleaner and more detailed sounding compared to the MSII+, I can say that for sure. IMO YMMV lol.


----------



## hp300plus

Quote: 





judmarc said:


> *Hi-Fi Tuning Fuse*


 


  Much appreciated, judmarc.  Going to plunge down the money for one as a final Christmas gift to myself.  Apparently Music Direct has a 30 day return policy -- hopefully I won't need to exercise it.  
   
  Does anyone know what fuse is used by the Asgard and Lyr?  Is it worth 'rolling' fuses on the amps too?


----------



## livewire

Quote: 





hp300plus said:


> Is it worth 'rolling' fuses on the amps too?


 

 No.


----------



## TEH725

[size=medium]Received my Bifrost yesterday (#624 - 22 days from order to shipping) and was able to spend some time with it last night and then this morning.  This is an initial review by someone trading up from their first inexpensive DAC, a Beresford 7510 with an upgraded power supply.  I am also new to the hobby with only 2 years of experience.  I consider myself very much a value buyer who does not spend $1,000s on equipment.  *Someone in a similar situation may find this review useful.*[/size]
   
  [size=medium]All my listening was with and iPod classic on an Onkyo ND-S1 transport feeding the Bifrost via digital coax.   Most of my listening was on speakers – Silverline Minuets with an 8” Polk Audio sub.  Mostly CD rips but some 256K iTunes downloads.[/size]
   
  [size=medium]*Noise:* First impression came when I plugged it in and cranked the volume up with no music playing.  Noise experienced with the old DAC was gone.  Nice to have that off my plate. [/size]
   
  [size=medium]*Detail:  *Better detail all around.  If you trade up, you’ll definitely hear things you never heard before and I think they are important things.  Like the trailing off or wavering of the singers voice or the vibrato on certain instruments that were not apparent before.  Besides being more interesting to listen to, I found that with female singers in particular, it connected me more emotionally with the music.  Individual notes (particularly bass notes) have more shape if you will and are interesting to listen to as well.[/size]
   
  [size=medium]*Aretha Franklin Test: *I always wondered if it was some other component in my system that made certain Aretha Franklin tracks almost sound distorted.   Like she was almost screaming rather than singing.  Well the Bifrost rendered her voice nicely.  It also did the same for certain Linda Ronstadt tracks where she really belts it out. [/size]
   
  [size=medium]*Complexity:  *Another issue I had with my first DAC was that it would not deal with the complexity of some tracks where lots of instruments are playing at one time.  I’d get the wall of sound effect as intended, but individual parts would get lost.  Bifrost seems to handle the complexity pretty well and I can sort out the various instruments a lot easier while keeping the wall of sound intact.[/size]
   
  [size=medium]*Soundstage: *This is the only area where I found the 7510 to be initially better.  The image was taller and wider than the Bifrost.  Equal depth.   As such, the instruments were closer together.[/size]
   
  [size=medium]*Bass: *I was concerned here because of some reviewer comments concerning less bass.  On most tracks, I did not have a problem at all.  In fact, I ended up turning my subwoofer down slightly about half way through the evening.   One bass test includes Diana Krall’s Temptation.  On my earlier DAC, the upright bass seemed muddy.  Bifrost made this crisp but well rounded or more musical. [/size]
   
  [size=medium]*iTunes Songs:* I was also concerned in that I have a number of iTunes songs in my collection.  Many of them I will eventually upgrade, but I didn’t want these to be rendered obsolete till then.  Thus far, this has simply not been the case.  They simply sound better.[/size]
   
  [size=medium]*Bright versus Dark: *I don’t have much experience here, but it’s definitely brighter than my old DAC.  The rawness of some tracks also comes through as others have noted.  I am hoping this is reduced after burn in.  It seemed better this morning already after just 12 hours.  It could be that I listened too late last night and that’s usually a bad thing for musical enjoyment.[/size]
   
  [size=medium]*Bottom line: *For me is this was a very worthwhile upgrade and improved my musical experience considerably.  Worth the wait and I am terrible at waiting once I decide to buy something.  And being very budget-minded , great bang for the buck.   I have no idea what a statement DAC sounds like, but this certainly sounds like quality to me.[/size]


----------



## sphinxvc

I may have missed it, but has anyone compared this to the PS DL III?


----------



## Argo Duck

Very nice, detailed comments TEH. I agree with you.
   
  Concerning less reported bass, the question has to be "compared to what?". If there is some 'reference DAC' with which all or most of us have experience, that would work. Otherwise, comparative reviews can be useful, but only to those who have experienced the comparison equipment.
   
  As well, a 'brighter' signature overall - whatever the causes of the perceived brightness - may make a component _sound _less bassy compared to some other component when 'objectively' there is the same quantity and/or definition with both.
   
  Just my 2c or less!


----------



## TEH725

I find people's reviews to be very helpful in general (your's especially) but tend to read them all and look for themes.  We don't have a common basis for comparison but if enough people cite a given theme compared to their existing equipment, I give it some credence.   All in all, I find the descriptions of the Bifrost in this thread to be very accurate.


----------



## 45longcolt

Hey Sphinxvc--
   
  Presuming you mean the PS Audio DL III, that is the DAC I used for over two years before getting the Bifrost. My DL III is modded by Cullen Circuits.
   
  Big differences are tonal balance and detail. The PS Audio is more "analog" sounding. Most people understand this to mean warmer, with the top end less emphasized and a bit more mid and low bass. The DL III is exceedingly pleasant to listen to and removes all trace of digital nasties.
   
  The Bifrost is lean and mean (like me, at least the mean part is like me...) and does not add any energy to the bass. That is not to say the Bifrost lacks bass - as I have confirmed on many cuts it does go all the way down. This may lead some to call the Bifrost thin or bright, but that's only in comparison to more colored DACs. The Bifrost is a bit like the genius child who says exactly what's on his mind regardless of the social setting. Illuminating if perhaps ocassionally uncomfortable.
   
  On the cut Coffee Homeground from her Lionheart album, Kate Bush belts out "lipstck smeared" in a high voice, followed immediately by a strong flute note. Reproduced poorly, these events can be excrutiating. The Bifrost delivers all the power of Kate' voice - you get the feeling she's not only putting her whole diaphragm into it but probably standing on her toes as well - without going over the edge. Likewise the flute is enough to make you jump, but in a good way.
   
  The Bifrost is also hyper-detailed. Touches that might usually be lost in the mix are almost floated on their own whether on phones or speakers. On albums that tend to come across like sonic walpaper, this can be a great thing, letting in more space and light. With some recordings, though, the Bifrost almost disassembles the mix, giving a trees-rather-than-forest perspective. Or to put it another way, spotlighting the individual stitches over the whole tapestry. This seems to occur more often over phones.
   
  I also think the Bifrost tends to convey more eneregy, more pace to the music. It's worth keeping in mind that the PSA DL III is an upsampling DAC where Schiit expectorates all over upsampling.
   
  If you prefer beauty over unvarnished truth, you might very well prefer the DL III. If you can't bear to think there might be information you might be missing, the Bifrost gets the nod. Also, the PS Audio is made in the People's Republic of China, while the Schiit is made in the USA (well, the People's Republic of California.)
   
  These days, I'm using the Bifrost more and the DL III less.


----------



## mab1376

Is the DAC chip itself upgradeable?
   
  Also can anyone speak on the synergy with this DAC and the LD MK IV SE amp?
   
  I'm getting a DAC soon and I have quite a few to consider, and i'd like to get some feedback.


----------



## Argo Duck

_Great _description of Bifrost 45!
   
  @TEH completely agree with your approach!
   
  When a piece of equipment is less reviewed however, there's also a bit of - hmm - reverse engineering/analysis to do on people's impressions... X says this about Y and X seems to hear things like this compared to me so to my ears it might sound like ... it can take a lot of close reading and analysis!
  
  Quote: 





45longcolt said:


> Hey Sphinxvc--
> 
> Presuming you mean the PS Audio DL III, that is the DAC I used for over two years before getting the Bifrost. My DL III is modded by Cullen Circuits.
> 
> ...


----------



## sling5s

Really well put and well said.
  
  Quote: 





45longcolt said:


> Hey Sphinxvc--
> 
> Presuming you mean the PS Audio DL III, that is the DAC I used for over two years before getting the Bifrost. My DL III is modded by Cullen Circuits.
> 
> ...


----------



## internethandle

Quote: 





mab1376 said:


> Is the DAC chip itself upgradeable?
> 
> Also can anyone speak on the synergy with this DAC and the LD MK IV SE amp?
> 
> I'm getting a DAC soon and I have quite a few to consider, and i'd like to get some feedback.


 


 Yes, part of the modular aspect of the Bifrost is that the board which contains both the DAC chip and the analog discrete output circuit are upgradable, for if/when Schiit decides to do so (the other upgradable portion is the USB board).
   
  I can't comment on the LD MK IV SE and the Bifrost, but I'm currently using a LD MK III with it and it's been a good combination - given all the comments about Bifrost's "bright" qualities/leaning away from warm or analog, one of my first reactions to the combo was actually that the Bifrost accentuated or brought into better relief the MK III's tubes/warmth than my last DAC (a Keces DA-151 USB DAC).


----------



## drexman

i sent schiit an e-mail at info@schiit.com 2 days ago and they didn't respond yet. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  if they don't respond i won't buy it.


----------



## Misterrogers

Bounce your question again to jason@schiit.com. It's highly unusual for them to take more than an hour to respond, but this is the gift giving season, and I know they're dealing with huge demand for most of their gear.
  
  Quote: 





drexman said:


> i sent schiit an e-mail at info@schiit.com 2 days ago and they didn't respond yet.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## drexman

thanks i'll try jason@schiit.com
   
  Edit: he answered quickly


----------



## 45longcolt

Thanks, Sling5s and AiDee, I hope people find my impressions useful. And, AiDee, I have enjoyed reading your reports as well. You are correct that we all must read carefully, in order to judge how others' views and experiences will jibe with ours. That's why I try to define terms like "warm" or "analog."
   
  I've had a lot of fun with the Bifrost, It was cheap enough to buy on spec, as it were; even though I too live in California and thus must pay sales tax. I notice Schiit amps (Lyr and Valhalla) are in the latest Audio Advisors catalog. No Bifrost, which must mean Schit is still back-ordered.


----------



## sphinxvc

Quote:


45longcolt said:


> Hey Sphinxvc--
> 
> Presuming you mean the PS Audio DL III, that is the DAC I used for over two years before getting the Bifrost. My DL III is modded by Cullen Circuits.
> 
> [...]


 

 45longcolt, thanks for the detailed comparison, I read it earlier, but didn't have a chance to respond at work.  The Bifrost sounds promising, especially for pairing with the HD650s.  I thought the PS DL III might be on a different level and seeing a couple on the FS forums I thought I might as well leap frog to one of those, but it seems the Bifrost is more than able to keep up, nice.  
   
  Cheers.


----------



## judmarc

*Bifrost Fuse*
   
  Another member and I have found the fuses in our Bifrosts are apparently 1 amp fast blow (F1AL250V) rather than .5 amp slow blow.  Trying to look into it before folks possibly do replacements with incorrect values.


----------



## sferic

Quote: 





45longcolt said:


> On the cut Coffee Homeground from her Lionheart album, Kate Bush belts out "lipstck smeared" in a high voice, followed immediately by a strong flute note. Reproduced poorly, these events can be excrutiating. The Bifrost delivers all the power of Kate' voice - you get the feeling she's not only putting her whole diaphragm into it but probably standing on her toes as well - without going over the edge. Likewise the flute is enough to make you jump, but in a good way.


 

 Ah one of my favorite KB tracks!!! "Reproduced poorly...can be excruciating." That's definitely true of Kate. That said, even with a boatload of audiophile crud (Martin Logan speakers, Krell Amps, CD Players) my roommates say she is excruciating no matter what. LOL, you know what I'm talking about.
   
  The Bifrost is a great machine, an improvement over my Apogee Duet! Using Optical out of a Mac Pro & quite happy, seems the real controversy is over SPDIF vs USB. Happy with SPDIF, when I get a spare benjamin I'll try out the USB just for fun.
   
  And back to Kate - "50 Words for Snow" seems quite controversial. One reviewer on Amazon called it "50 Words for Crap". I adore my vintage Kate, but all I'll say about this latest album is I listened to it once and haven't been back. "Aerial" was bordering on aimless, but I still enjoy it.


----------



## sampson_smith

Funny. "50 Words for Snow" has consistently been winding up on many of the best-of-year lists. There is little that is very controversial about universal acclaim. Unless it is undue. But then the masses would disagree.


----------



## judmarc

Quote: 





judmarc said:


> *Bifrost Fuse*
> 
> Another member and I have found the fuses in our Bifrosts are apparently 1 amp fast blow (F1AL250V) rather than .5 amp slow blow.  Trying to look into it before folks possibly do replacements with incorrect values.


 


 Just wanted to follow up and confirm that the stock fuse appears to be 1 amp fast blow rather than .5 amp slow blow.


----------



## 45longcolt

Judmarc - thanks for the fuse info. Do you know if the Lyr uses the same?
   
  Sphinxvc - I definitely would choose the Bifrost over the PS DL III. Unless I just had to have the kinder, gentler presentation. (Which may be a byproduct of oversampling, or a design choice, or just becasue the DL III is an "old" product - at least in digital years, which make dog years look leisurely. Digital gear is getting better faster to the extent I wouldn't spend megabucks [$5K-$20K+] on a DAC because it will be overtaken next month by a $1K product. In fact I suspect PS Audio will have a new model out soon - just a guess. But I digress)
   
  Please don't get the idea the Bifrost can't commit acts of sonic beauty. Just listened to the cut "Mary" from Robert Fripp's Exposure album (1981 - 2006 remaster.) Terre Roche's voice was lovely, the guitar washes sublime. Gabriel's "Here Comes the Flood" was likewise deeply affecting (most of the rest of that album will paste you against the ceiling if you crank it, of course.)
   
  As to Kate, sferic, she is wonderfully served by the Bifrost. She used to play with her vocals the way a cat plays wioth a trapped mouse, and this DAC makes the result not just bearable but enjoyable. (i.e. The Dreaming.) Just listened to the second disc of Aeriel and revelled in the detailed presentation, the bass and the way I could easily understand what was being sung and played.
   
  And when it comes to 50 Words for Snow, Dirge is the word that comes to mind. I keep meaning to play it again, but having to pysch myself up to do so, well that says something right there. Guess what they say about pilots (there are old, and bold, but no old bold) applies to rock stars as well. A friend says if he doesn't immediately take to an album he just puts it on repeat for a few days until he gets used to it. Shades of Clockwork Orange. I say why bother.
   
  But, to get back on topic, the Bifrost is well worth bothering with. Killer for the bucks. And I can't wait to see what Schiit does for a statement product.


----------



## TEH725

Got back from my trip and listened again with about 72 hours of burn-in.  This dac really seems to benefit from burn in as has been pointed out.   I think someone else said "smoother but no loss in the details," to which I have to agree. 
   
  I have also done more headphone listening rather than just speaker listening.  Even more detail than from speakers and I don't have to have the volume up nearly as much.  I have to say I am going to do a lot more headphone listening.  I'll probably be back on the forum in a month or two looking for headphone suggestions.


----------



## Austin Morrow

As much as I love reviews and first impressions, does anyone have any other pictures that they'd like to share?


----------



## rocky500

Here is some pics with my attempt of multi coloured leds 
   
   
  Before
   
   
  After


----------



## Austin Morrow

Quote: 





rocky500 said:


> Here is some pics with my attempt of multi coloured leds
> 
> 
> Before
> ...


 


  Awesome. What's the amp that is next to that? Looks like a DarkVoice....


----------



## rocky500

It is a Cayin A-50T Tube Intergrated Amp.


----------



## Austin Morrow

Quote: 





rocky500 said:


> It is a Cayin A-50T Tube Intergrated Amp.


 


  Oh. Wow. How much money?


----------



## rocky500

I think RRP was $1295 US. I picked it up 2nd hand with some upgraded caps. The guy before me replaced the original signal coupling capacitors with high quality Mundorf Supreme Silver/Oil capacitors.
  Very nice Amp.

  
   
  Quote: 





austin morrow said:


> Oh. Wow. How much money?


----------



## Austin Morrow

Quote: 





rocky500 said:


> I think RRP was $1295 US. I picked it up 2nd hand with some upgraded caps. The guy before me replaced the original signal coupling capacitors with high quality Mundorf Supreme Silver/Oil capacitors.
> Very nice Amp.


 


  Very cool. I'll have to say that it's a work of art. Does it synergies well with the Bifrost?


----------



## rocky500

I am in the middle of trying out speakers. But yes it does work very well.
  My pics of the bitfrost with electricians tape was just a very rough go to see if I could dim down the bright leds. Worked very well. Used multi layers on the red. 6 thick I think. Will have to tidy it up a bit next time.
   
  The thing with the bitfrost is it hard to see the quality/finish from any pics.
  I was amazed when I got. It is extremely well made and looks great.


----------



## lextek

Has anyone done a direct comparison with the Cambridge Audio DACMagic?  Sorry if I missed it.


----------



## Austin Morrow

Quote: 





rocky500 said:


> I am in the middle of trying out speakers. But yes it does work very well.
> My pics of the bitfrost with electricians tape was just a very rough go to see if I could dim down the bright leds. Worked very well. Used multi layers on the red. 6 thick I think. Will have to tidy it up a bit next time.
> 
> The thing with the bitfrost is it hard to see the quality/finish from any pics.
> I was amazed when I got. It is extremely well made and looks great.


 

 Yeah. I've heard that it is quite amazing. The Bifrost may end my DAC search. See, I'm on a Under $1500 budget. Here's what I have.
   
  Schiit Valhalla
  HD650
   
  Hoping to have
   
  iMac - Schiit Bifrost - Schiit Valhalla - Zynsonix HD650 Cable - HD650.


----------



## pseudohippy

Quote: 





austin morrow said:


> As much as I love reviews and first impressions, does anyone have any other pictures that they'd like to share?


 

  How do you guys make the pic bigger without a click? Oh, I wasnt planning on posting this but since your looking for pics I figured what the heck.


----------



## Austin Morrow

Quote: 





pseudohippy said:


> How do you guys make the pic bigger without a click? Oh, I wasnt planning on posting this but since your looking for pics I figured what the heck.


 

 I'm not sure. It hasn't been working correctly for me on Safari. That's an awesome combo. May I ask what cable is that?


----------



## pseudohippy

Quote: 





austin morrow said:


> I'm not sure. It hasn't been working correctly for me on Safari. That's an awesome combo. May I ask what cable is that?


 


  It is the Norse Norn 8 wire. Dont ask how it sounds, I dont think it sounds any different really, I just thought it looked amazingly beautiful and kinda vintage so I bought it. Basically just because I wanted to, not for much else. Im vain, I know.


----------



## Austin Morrow

Quote: 





pseudohippy said:


> It is the Norse Norn 8 wire. Dont ask how it sounds, I dont think it sounds any different really, I just thought it looked amazingly beautiful and kinda vintage so I bought it. Basically just because I wanted to, not for much else. Im vain, I know.


 


  Ah, yes. Norse makes some absolutely awesome looking cables.


----------



## Argo Duck

I have to ask pseudo - what is the function of the device pictured with your Schiit stack?
   
  Thoughts to mind so far are: something to tamp your tubes into place? Something to mark time with? To beat off robbers trying to steal your schiit?? ...?
   
  Puzzled from (a very wet) NZ


----------



## pseudohippy

Quote: 





argo duck said:


> I have to ask pseudo - what is the function of the device pictured with your Schiit stack?
> 
> Thoughts to mind so far are: something to tamp your tubes into place? Something to mark time with? To beat off robbers trying to steal your schiit?? ...?
> 
> Puzzled from (a very wet) NZ


 

 lol, ya, I took that photo focusing more on my epipe for another site. But yeah, Im an ex cigarette smoker. I quit back in april and started with an electronic cigarette and moved on to electronic pipes. Im down to zero nicotine juice for it now so Im basically smoke and nic free. Just youtube or google for eipipemods, ecigs, or a place called the ecf. Im sure if your not a smoker it wont interest you but there are some amazing looking devices out there. Dont want to sidetrack too much so thats all Ill say on the topic. If any of you smokers trying to quit out there that want to pm me and ask what I got feel free.


----------



## Austin Morrow

Quote: 





argo duck said:


> I have to ask pseudo - what is the function of the device pictured with your Schiit stack?
> 
> Thoughts to mind so far are: something to tamp your tubes into place? Something to mark time with? To beat off robbers trying to steal your schiit?? ...?
> 
> Puzzled from (a very wet) NZ


 


  Decor? Hahaha.


----------



## Argo Duck

Cheers Pseudo 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  I thought it looked like a pipe but not a pipe - amazing device! My wife works in oncology - she'll be very glad to hear you're an ex-smoker!!


----------



## internethandle

Wanted to point out, for those wanting to look into the Hi-Fi Tuning fuse tweak/upgrade for their Bifrosts, that the Cable Company site is having a $5 to $10 off special for all Hi-Fi Tuning fuses through the 31st as part of a Christmas sale:
   
   http://www.thecableco.com/newsletter-detail.aspx?iid=5811#articles_10


----------



## agisthos

Quote: 





judmarc said:


> Just wanted to follow up and confirm that the stock fuse appears to be 1 amp fast blow rather than .5 amp slow blow.


 

 I asked Jason beforehand and he said 0.5A. when i opened the Bifrost up I found a 1A just like you have. I then asked Jason what is the exact real value that is supposed to be there, and he said it should be 0.5A not 1A.
   
  Im sure at these low values it does not matter.


----------



## hp300plus

Is your unit a 115v or 230v?

  
  Quote: 





agisthos said:


> I asked Jason beforehand and he said 0.5A. when i opened the Bifrost up I found a 1A just like you have. I then asked Jason what is the exact real value that is supposed to be there, and he said it should be 0.5A not 1A.
> 
> Im sure at these low values it does not matter.


----------



## agisthos

Quote: 





hp300plus said:


> Is your unit a 115v or 230v?


 

 230V


----------



## Maxvla

lextek said:


> Has anyone done a direct comparison with the Cambridge Audio DACMagic?  Sorry if I missed it.




Yes. There is no contest. The DacMagic is a clear loser across the board. There is not a single aspect of the DacMagic I prefer over the Bifrost.

Eagerly anticipating the statement DAC. Got money set aside for it already.


----------



## Austin Morrow

Quote: 





maxvla said:


> Yes. There is no contest. The DacMagic is a clear loser across the board. There is not a single aspect of the DacMagic I prefer over the Bifrost.
> Eagerly anticipating the statement DAC. Got money set aside for it already.


 


  How much money? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  I haven't heard the DACMagic, but I'd always thought it would be a pretty decent DAC for the price. That is, when I read Skylab's review of the Bifrost and how well it performed for $450 I thought there probably isn't any competition going on there...


----------



## hp300plus

Thanks agisthos.  I believe therein lies the difference in fuse ampere values we are seeing.  According to an electrician friend of mine, 115v will typically require a higher ampere fuse versus 230v.  I am stateside and had a 1A fast blow fuse in my Bifrost.  In checking some other electronics I have that can be converted from 115v to 230v, namely a Velodyne powered subwoofer, I found you'd have to lower the fuse on those electronics as well.  Here's a screen grab from the Velodyne manual showing this.
   

   
  So at the end of the day, I think we all have the right answer for the fuse ampere needed, but it just depends if you have a 115v or 230v.  
   

  
  Quote: 





agisthos said:


> 230V


----------



## Maxvla

austin morrow said:


> How much money?
> 
> I haven't heard the DACMagic, but I'd always thought it would be a pretty decent DAC for the price. That is, when I read Skylab's review of the Bifrost and how well it performed for $450 I thought there probably isn't any competition going on there...




It once was, and somewhat still is. If you have to have balanced digital sourcing on a budget it's good. The DacMagic has been around for quite some time now and it's showing.

Oh and the statement Schiit DAC is supposed to be in the neighborhood of $900 so I have $1k set aside.


----------



## Austin Morrow

Quote: 





maxvla said:


> It once was, and somewhat still is. If you have to have balanced digital sourcing on a budget it's good. The DacMagic has been around for quite some time now and it's showing.
> Oh and the statement Schiit DAC is supposed to be in the neighborhood of $900 so I have $1k set aside.


 


  I was considering getting the DACMagic instead of a Bifrost but since all the reviews say the Bifrost is really good I might as well just stick with that. Also, it matches my Valhalla, so there's another plus there.


----------



## crooner

I ordered my Bifrost on November 21st. One month ago. Still waiting. I'm order # 651.
  Supposedly they are shipping this week.
   
  Has anybody else received theirs?
  I was hoping to get mine by Christmas....


----------



## livewire

Have you been naughty or nice?


----------



## crooner

Quote: 





livewire said:


> Have you been naughty or nice?


 
  Looks like I've been nice since Santa, I mean Schiit Audio, just sent me a message saying the unit is ready to ship


----------



## Balazska26

Schiit landscape on my desk. Headphones hidden, it's a HD650. Sounds just terrific.


----------



## Thenarus

Quote: 





maxvla said:


> Eagerly anticipating the statement DAC. Got money set aside for it already.


 

 Same here; partially thanks to you, I have a Dark Star on the way now, and I need a good balanced DAC.  Anedio's revised D1 (if they still call it that) keeps getting delayed, and the value proposition for Schiit's statement seems too good to pass up for around a grand.  Can't wait to hear more news about it.


----------



## Austin Morrow

Quote: 





balazska26 said:


> Schiit landscape on my desk. Headphones hidden, it's a HD650. Sounds just terrific.


 
   
  Where did you get those feet? I'd love something like that, albeit a bit smaller and not as high.


----------



## leesure

Search eBay for 'isolation cones'


----------



## Rope

Quote: 





livewire said:


> Have you been naughty or nice?


 

 Being nice is highly over rated, being naughty is much more fun.


----------



## Rope

Quote: 





leesure said:


> Search eBay for 'isolation cones'


 

 I came up with this


----------



## Austin Morrow

Quote: 





rope said:


> I came up with this


 


  I didn't know eBay sold movie posters.


----------



## Balazska26

Quote: 





austin morrow said:


> Where did you get those feet? I'd love something like that, albeit a bit smaller and not as high.


 
  It's from a Hungarian DIYer, not from eBay:
http://www.avx.hu/forum/index.php?/topic/28027-fodesz-fele-kiegeszitok/


----------



## TubeDriver

Quote: 





austin morrow said:


> How much money?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 The DacMagic was a great Dac for the price.  Running it balanced (one less opamp in the balanced out compared to the standard outputs) and removing the output caps made a significant improvement in transparency and micro dynamics  On the other hand, dacs have rally improved in the last couple years.  I have a Bifrost on order, it will be interesting to see how it stacks up to my slightly modded DacMagic.


----------



## dommsu

Schiit bifrost is my firs DAC, can anyone recommend a USB cord?
  Thanks.
  Dominic


----------



## drexman

http://www.head-fi.org/t/545842/schiit-dacs-the-information-and-anticipation-thread/1665#post_7900665
http://www.head-fi.org/t/545842/schiit-dacs-the-information-and-anticipation-thread/1665#post_7901151

  
  Quote: 





dommsu said:


> Schiit bifrost is my firs DAC, can anyone recommend a USB cord?
> Thanks.
> Dominic


----------



## mmayer167

^ I like my AudioQuest Forest usb. 
   
  If anything it's well built.
   
  M


----------



## sferic

Quote: 





45longcolt said:


> As to Kate, sferic, she is wonderfully served by the Bifrost. She used to play with her vocals the way a cat plays wioth a trapped mouse, and this DAC makes the result not just bearable but enjoyable. (i.e. The Dreaming.) Just listened to the second disc of Aeriel and revelled in the detailed presentation, the bass and the way I could easily understand what was being sung and played.
> 
> And when it comes to 50 Words for Snow, Dirge is the word that comes to mind. I keep meaning to play it again, but having to pysch myself up to do so, well that says something right there. Guess what they say about pilots (there are old, and bold, but no old bold) applies to rock stars as well. A friend says if he doesn't immediately take to an album he just puts it on repeat for a few days until he gets used to it. Shades of Clockwork Orange. I say why bother.


 

 Agreed. Another poster here said "there's nothing controversial about near universal acclaim" with regard to 50 Words. (Not so sure the acclaim is "near universal", I mean, we're talking KATE BUSH, but I'll grant him that for the sake of argument.) And then seemed to imply only "the masses" might not like it. I'm thinking quite the opposite. As someone who played a promo copy of her first album "The Kick Inside" on Pacifica Radio in the 70's relentlessly when I had a radio show, and then followed her every move for almost 35 years, I don't think I (or you) are "the masses". I'm glad Kate is reaching a lot of people with this album! Make no mistake, my admiration for her is unconditional. There is stuff she's done that I didn't like before as well. Kate's not for everybody, and all her work is not for all her admirers. Her fans know not to expect to love every thing she does. Maybe that's why we love her so much, she doesn't stick to formula well, and has never, ever catered to "the masses" for bucks.


----------



## sampson_smith

I meant "near universal acclaim" with respect to published music criticism of her most recent album, which would truly be the only way one could learn much about what many thought to be noteworthy work. Kate Bush is certainly not pop or even mainstream, however, and so it would be difficult to get an overall feel about what the masses think, beyond a sporadic amazon.com review or two. My apologies for the confusion. No one that I know personally can accurately comment on her work, given that she isn't on their radar. So while Bush may not be obscure, widespread popularity is likely not imminent. But therefore nor will be public disdain for any of her works. You would have to be better known (and way less talented) to achieve this.


----------



## M-13

Added the Bifrost to my chain today... and I'm speechless. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I expected the high level of detail and clarity but not the beauty in reproduction. Just blown away. So smooth yet detailed. Makes the MS+/DacPort LX/HDP look bad, really bad. Even after just a few hours of burn it the sound is starting to really open up and the brightness is being tamed and the bottom end is filling up. Bifrost arrived today (Satruday): Santa (Jason) came through before the end of 2011. I'm already saving up for the statement DAC/AMP combo from Schiit. You guys are seriously awesome. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I love you guys (hug)


----------



## Llloyd

Just put a bifrost no usb order in.  They convinced me on their website not to use usb haha.  Gonna run optical out of my soundcard instead.


----------



## Lan647

Any news here?


----------



## mab1376

My hope is that they eventually release a DAC with a tube based output stage.


----------



## Killbox

I think I remember that Jason said they would never release a tube-based dac. 
  
   
  Quote: 





mab1376 said:


> My hope is that they eventually release a DAC with a tube based output stage.


----------



## fir3dp

i am considering a bitfrost and a nuforce HDP but cant seem to find any comparison here..they are both about the same price from where i am..
  im coming from a lyr + lcd2
   
  is there anyone that has experience with both evaluate for me??
   
  thanks


----------



## shaunybaby

Quote: 





fir3dp said:


> i am considering a bitfrost and a nuforce HDP but cant seem to find any comparison here..they are both about the same price from where i am..
> im coming from a lyr + lcd2
> 
> is there anyone that has experience with both evaluate for me??
> ...


 
  I can,t say that i have experience with both but i do have the hdp and i must say that most annoying thing about it is that it has a volume pot for the out going sound so you have two volume pots, which annoys the hell out of me going to the dac and the amp to adjust the sound level, might not be a problem for you but annoys me.


----------



## itchyblood

Schiit Bifrost vs Creative Titanium HD soundcard...what you think guys, schiit worth the upgrade for the Ti HD? Noticeable SQ improvement?


----------



## internethandle

Quote: 





fir3dp said:


> i am considering a bitfrost and a nuforce HDP but cant seem to find any comparison here..they are both about the same price from where i am..
> im coming from a lyr + lcd2
> 
> is there anyone that has experience with both evaluate for me??
> ...


 


http://www.head-fi.org/t/545842/schiit-dacs-the-information-and-anticipation-thread/1875#post_7959692


----------



## Llloyd

Quote: 





itchyblood said:


> Schiit Bifrost vs Creative Titanium HD soundcard...what you think guys, schiit worth the upgrade for the Ti HD? Noticeable SQ improvement?


 


  Yes.


----------



## fir3dp

Quote: 





internethandle said:


> http://www.head-fi.org/t/545842/schiit-dacs-the-information-and-anticipation-thread/1875#post_7959692


 


  thanks alot!


----------



## leesure




----------



## sphinxvc

Lee, you're a bad dude.
   
  (By the way, I see that clear pane of glass you were talking about on the bottom.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





)


----------



## lextek

Quote: 





leesure said:


>


 


   
  Awseome, awesome picture.Looks just like mine except for the Lyr, Bifrost and Hifimans....


----------



## leesure

Quote: 





sphinxvc said:


> Lee, you're a bad dude.
> 
> (By the way, I see that clear pane of glass you were talking about on the bottom.
> 
> ...


 


  Actually...that is black plexi...FWIW.


----------



## leesure




----------



## Lan647

Wow leesure, those are some impressive photos. Very, very nice! (and the gear as well)


----------



## leesure

Thanks Lan647!


----------



## Defiant00

Excellent photos leesure, and very cool (real!) reflections.


----------



## Uncle00Jesse

[size=10pt]Question for the die-hard schiit-heads:[/size]
   
[size=10pt]I am very interested in picking up a bifrost but I cant decide between usb/non-usb. For background – I absolutely despise my giant laptop. It works very well but it’s massive and in no way a pleasure to use. I bought a squeezebox touch so I wouldn’t have to touch my pc while using my rig (I love that thing). The question is: Is usb from PC to bifrost using winamp or foobar much better than coaxial/optical from the squeezebox to the bifrost? The $100 extra for the usb isn’t a big deal to me so I might just end up getting the extra connectivity, but I was wondering if hooking it up to the squeezebox would be exactly the same or maybe even better. Thanks guys[/size]


----------



## Uncle00Jesse

[size=10pt]Question for the die-hard schiit-heads:[/size]
   
[size=10pt]I am very interested in picking up a bifrost but I cant decide between usb/non-usb. For background – I absolutely despise my giant laptop. It works very well but it’s massive and in no way a pleasure to use. I bought a squeezebox touch so I wouldn’t have to touch my pc while using my rig (I love that thing). The question is: Is usb from PC to bifrost using winamp or foobar much better than coaxial/optical from the squeezebox to the bifrost? The $100 extra for the usb isn’t a big deal to me so I might just end up getting the extra connectivity, but I was wondering if hooking it up to the squeezebox would be exactly the same or maybe even better. Thanks guys[/size]


----------



## Defiant00

While I haven't tested that exact setup I have used both USB and optical with my Bifrost. Going off of that and what Schiit has said, going through the SqueezeBox should sound at least as good as USB.
  
   
  Quote: 





uncle00jesse said:


> [size=10pt]Question for the die-hard schiit-heads:[/size]
> 
> [size=10pt]I am very interested in picking up a bifrost but I cant decide between usb/non-usb. For background – I absolutely despise my giant laptop. It works very well but it’s massive and in no way a pleasure to use. I bought a squeezebox touch so I wouldn’t have to touch my pc while using my rig (I love that thing). The question is: Is usb from PC to bifrost using winamp or foobar much better than coaxial/optical from the squeezebox to the bifrost? The $100 extra for the usb isn’t a big deal to me so I might just end up getting the extra connectivity, but I was wondering if hooking it up to the squeezebox would be exactly the same or maybe even better. Thanks guys[/size]


----------



## olor1n

Quote: 





leesure said:


>


 

  
  Great photo leesure. This would've made me pull the trigger if I didn't already have a Bifrost in transit.


----------



## judmarc

*A Li'l 'Speriment*
   
  Remarks by some DAC makers and software authors over at Computer Audiophile got me interested in trying sample rate conversion in software prior to feeding the signal to the Bifrost.  One of them is PeterSt, who makes a NOS DAC by virtue of upsampling everything in software to 768 or 705.6 prior to feeding it to the DAC, where no upsampling is done.  The two pieces of software he likes best for this are his own XXHighEnd on Windows, and Audirvana Plus on Mac (which uses the well-thought-of iZotope for sample rate conversion).  Another is Miska, author of HQPlayer for Windows and Linux, who has an encyclopedic knowledge of DAC chips.  He also is a proponent of software upsampling, and remarked that AKM DAC chips can particularly benefit from it.  This was sufficient to at least make me want to experiment.  I'd previously avoided it from a desire to keep things somehow pristine or bit perfect until the last possible moment.
   
  So I did some careful listening back and forth to a few tracks with Audirvana Plus, most 16/44.1 (Down Along the Dixie Line from Gillian Welch, "The Harrow and the Harvest;" 500 Miles from Rosanne Cash, "The List;" Everybody Pays As They Go from Jakob Dylan, "Seeing Things"), one 24/96 (Our Shangri-La from Mark Knopfler, "Shangri-La").  I listened to each with no upsampling, then upsampled prior to the DAC to 192kHz, doing this several times with each track.
   
  Long story short, after the Gillian Welch, Mark Knopfler and Rosanne Cash I provisionally felt I preferred upsampling.  Then the Jakob Dylan track absolutely nailed it. Without upsampling it's an excellently recorded, unornamented track. With upsampling, the immediacy and sense of realism of the acoustic guitars, harmony vocals and lead vocals was little short of astonishing. Interesting that the more plainly recorded 16/44.1 material (Gillian Welch and especially the Jakob Dylan) came out sounding more impressive than the more heavily produced 24/96 from Mark Knopfler.  Along the same lines, songs from Jakob Dylan's very good second solo album, "Women & Country," produced by T-Bone Burnett, an excellent producer with a fine reputation, weren't as impressive as songs from the very starkly produced "Seeing Things." Producer of "Seeing Things"? Heh, Rick Rubin of Red Hot Chili Peppers "loudness wars" infamy! (But he did do great raw, plain recordings with Johnny Cash.)


----------



## luke99

Is Schitt pronounced like S#&% as in doo doo?


----------



## Austin Morrow

Quote: 





luke99 said:


> Is Schitt pronounced like S#&% as in doo doo?


 


  Yes, yes it is.


----------



## pyramid6

Any word on new DAC's?  The only information I can find is months old.


----------



## hanlk

The finish on the Bifrost and the Lyr looks slightly different. Is it the photo or are they actually different?


----------



## woof37

Maybe this is just my frustration with getting my own office PC (where my headphone rig lives) to play nicely with the Bifrost via USB, but I would avoid any type of USB connection if at all possible.  I had some experience getting the pops and crackles out of my old USB > DAC setup by playing with ASIO4ALL driver buffers, but I have had no luck with the Hi-speed drivers provided with the Bifrost.  This isn't a knock on Schiit; this is just par for the course with computer audio & USB.
   
  Use the Squeezebox...I'm about to do the exact same thing.  Brought my old SB Touch up there and just haven't connected it to my rig yet.


----------



## wushuliu

Quote: 





judmarc said:


> *A Li'l 'Speriment*
> 
> Remarks by some DAC makers and software authors over at Computer Audiophile got me interested in trying sample rate conversion in software prior to feeding the signal to the Bifrost.  One of them is PeterSt, who makes a NOS DAC by virtue of upsampling everything in software to 768 or 705.6 prior to feeding it to the DAC, where no upsampling is done.  The two pieces of software he likes best for this are his own XXHighEnd on Windows, and Audirvana Plus on Mac (which uses the well-thought-of iZotope for sample rate conversion).  Another is Miska, author of HQPlayer for Windows and Linux, who has an encyclopedic knowledge of DAC chips.  He also is a proponent of software upsampling, and remarked that AKM DAC chips can particularly benefit from it.  This was sufficient to at least make me want to experiment.  I'd previously avoided it from a desire to keep things somehow pristine or bit perfect until the last possible moment.
> 
> ...


 

  
  Have you tried Empirical Audio's suggestion of doing the bit rate first to 24 (so saved as 24/44.1) then upsample to 96? Much more holographic presentation, although it does mean more work.


----------



## juman231

I'm curious as well. I think I remember reading that they'll announce the new products in January or February but I expected some updates before the actual announcement...


----------



## wberghofer

hanlk said:


> Is it the photo or are they actually different?


 
   
  Unfortunately it's not the photo. The Bifrost's outside finish uses a slightly more "cold" apperance compared to the other Schiit boxes.
   
  Werner.


----------



## Maxvla

wberghofer said:


> Unfortunately it's not the photo. The Bifrost's outside finish uses a slightly more "cold" apperance compared to the other Schiit boxes.
> 
> Werner.




So what you are saying is it's a bit frosty?

Yeah I went there


----------



## dyl1dyl

Quote: 





pyramid6 said:


> Any word on new DAC's?  The only information I can find is months old.


 

 I asked Jason a while back about the upcoming balanced DACs and he stated that the balanced DAC should be out in the first quarter while the statement one should be in the second quarter.


----------



## Kremer930

I have played with upsampling in PureMusic to 24/192 and then into the Bifrost via USB and I find the sound is more dynamic when upsampled but more natural when played NOS. I personally like USB even though I know well that Jason prefers  coax.


----------



## pyramid6

Quote: 





dyl1dyl said:


> I asked Jason a while back about the upcoming balanced DACs and he stated that the balanced DAC should be out in the first quarter while the statement one should be in the second quarter.


 


  Thanks for the info.  Is the statement DAC going to be balanced?  Hopefully 1st quarter will be today, not March 31st.


----------



## M-13

I was expecting this but my Bifrost is an exact match for my Lyr (less than a week old) I think Schiit fixed the color... or I just got lucky.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  
  Quote: 





wberghofer said:


> Unfortunately it's not the photo. The Bifrost's outside finish uses a slightly more "cold" apperance compared to the other Schiit boxes.
> 
> Werner.


----------



## Puma Cat

Hey Guys,
  I just received my Bifrost last night, so I only have a few hours on it (maybe 3 or 4)....just noticed some attributes I wanted to discuss and see if they are common other user experiences. I'm coming a MS II, so keep that in mind per my observations.
   
  Also should point out that I am using my Bifrost with speakers, Dynaudio Contour S3.4, and close to SOTA Conrad-Johnson tube gear, Premier 17 preamp and LP70S power amp. The two digtial sources are a 2006 Black Macbook streaming AIFF and ALAC files from an external FW drive. Connection to the BiFrost is with an Audioquest Carbon USB cable. Software is PureMusic directing iTunes, using upsampling and memory mode. Additionally an SB Touch connected via Optical TOSLINK to the BiFrost with a Monster M1000 series optical cable (which I've found to be quite good, actually, even though I am not a fan of their audio cables at all...)
   
  The first is that the Bifrost seems to very detailed and revealing, but I find that the highs are pretty aggressive and on the edge of inducing listener fatigue. I can tell you that the first hour of play, it was pretty dreadful. The sound presentation is also thinner and not as full-sounding, though the imaging seems to be pretty fabulous. I find there's a bit a "relentlessness" quality to the Bifrost right now that is a bit hard to take. I did find improvements already by the 3rd or 4th hour mark, but I'm still hearing things I don't like, notably the brightness and "relentlessness". I find the sound to be a bit smoother with the SBT with optical than the asynch USB via the Macbook and AIFF files. 
   
  What can I expect with regarding initial experiences prior to burn-in, how do things change after burn-in, and what are typical burn-in times that folks are experiencing?...I'm guessing 100 hours or so will be required before you can really judge the merits of the Bifrost. I've read some of the post here, but obviously receiving the Bifrost last night  I haven't had time to read 135 pages of posts. 
   
  Any experiences you guys could share most appreciated.
   
  Thanks, 
  Stephen aka Puma Cat.


----------



## M-13

Same for me, except got a lot better with just a few hours of burn in and now near the 100 hours mark, the treble is very smooth and non-shrill. The details remains and I'm VERY happy about the Bifrost. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (This of course from my headphones and not a speaker set up)

  
  Quote: 





puma cat said:


> The first is that the Bifrost seems to very detailed and revealing, but I find that the highs are pretty aggressive and on the edge of inducing listener fatigue. I can tell you that the first hour of play, it was pretty dreadful.


----------



## GeorgeNapalm

Hi guys! Did anyone come to Bifrost from Musiland 02? Just wondering how big an imrovement in sound to expect.


----------



## wberghofer

Quote: 





m-13 said:


> […] I think Schiit fixed the color... or I just got lucky.


 
   
  I have a second Valhalla/Bifrost combination on my desk, and here the color differences are not as big as with my first Valhalla/Bifrost setup next to my comfortable chair for headphone listening.
   
  Werner.


----------



## thrak

Quote: 





puma cat said:


> The first is that the Bifrost seems to very detailed and revealing, but I find that the highs are pretty aggressive and on the edge of inducing listener fatigue. I can tell you that the first hour of play, it was pretty dreadful. The sound presentation is also thinner and not as full-sounding, though the imaging seems to be pretty fabulous. I find there's a bit a "relentlessness" quality to the Bifrost right now that is a bit hard to take. I did find improvements already by the 3rd or 4th hour mark, but I'm still hearing things I don't like, notably the brightness and "relentlessness". I find the sound to be a bit smoother with the SBT with optical than the asynch USB via the Macbook and AIFF files.
> 
> What can I expect with regarding initial experiences prior to burn-in, how do things change after burn-in, and what are typical burn-in times that folks are experiencing?...I'm guessing 100 hours or so will be required before you can really judge the merits of the Bifrost. I've read some of the post here, but obviously receiving the Bifrost last night  I haven't had time to read 135 pages of posts.


 

 yes, that is 100% accurate per my own experience with Bifrost/Asgard.  it settles down quite a bit at the 40 hour mark; enough to make it listenable without too much fatigue.  by the 80 hour mark it is pretty much settled down and smooth sounding.  i am near the 100 hour mark and it's still settling although not nearly as drastic and noticeable as before.


----------



## pseudohippy

Quote: 





m-13 said:


> I was expecting this but my Bifrost is an exact match for my Lyr (less than a week old) I think Schiit fixed the color... or I just got lucky.


 
   
  Seriously? Hmm....  I want mine to match. You gonna be at the Seattle meet with it later this month, I dont remember if you posted in the meet thread or not. Anyhow, lucky you lol.


----------



## kchau

I'm looking at getting a bifrost, but I just had a few questions.
   
  Is the output voltage higher than my ipod line out? (more volume at same knob level)
  What interconnect is recommended?
  Has anyone used their bifrost with an airport express toslink, how does that work out?


----------



## judmarc

Quote: 





thrak said:


> yes, that is 100% accurate per my own experience with Bifrost/Asgard.  it settles down quite a bit at the 40 hour mark; enough to make it listenable without too much fatigue.  by the 80 hour mark it is pretty much settled down and smooth sounding.  i am near the 100 hour mark and it's still settling although not nearly as drastic and noticeable as before.


 


  100 hours is a good milestone to give the Bifrost a serious listen.  I've had mine for a couple of months now and it could just be my imagination, but I actually think it continues to get better.


----------



## pyramid6

Quote: 





kchau said:


> I'm looking at getting a bifrost, but I just had a few questions.
> 
> Is the output voltage higher than my ipod line out? (more volume at same knob level)
> What interconnect is recommended?
> Has anyone used their bifrost with an airport express toslink, how does that work out?


 


   
  I have not used the bifrost, but I've used other dacs with an airport express.  It works just fine.  It should work with the bifrost just fine.


----------



## judmarc

Quote: 





wushuliu said:


> Have you tried Empirical Audio's suggestion of doing the bit rate first to 24 (so saved as 24/44.1) then upsample to 96? Much more holographic presentation, although it does mean more work.


 


  I haven't.  I have a very hard time thinking this would make a difference, since AFAIK a DAC chip's registers will "zero pad" the missing 8 or 16 LSBs anyway (depending on whether the file has a 16 bit or 24 bit word length, and whether the DAC's internal processing is 24 or 32-bit; the Bifrost's AKM chip does 32-bit internal processing IIRC).  Moreover, I can't see how zero padding the LSBs, whether in or prior to the DAC, would change the sound, since the resulting loudness values are exactly the same, like 1 and 1.00000000 (that's 1 with 8 LSBs zero padded).  It's not like changing the sample rate, where interpolated loudness values are added, resulting in most of the bitstream (147,900 samples per second in the case of upsampling from 44.1 to 192) actually being new sound that wasn't present before.
   
  So - don't see how zero padding would change sound, and even if it did, it's happening every time you listen to your DAC anyway.
   
  Of course Steve Nugent has forgotten more about audio than I'll ever know, so I guess some humility is appropriate....


----------



## Kremer930

Airport express will work with the Bifrost but AE is limited to 16/48. You can get other routers that will and 24/96 and still output digital.


----------



## kchau

Quote: 





kremer930 said:


> Airport express will work with the Bifrost but AE is limited to 16/48. You can get other routers that will and 24/96 and still output digital.


 

 are they compatible with my iphone and itunes?
   
  i dont have any music that is 24 bit, minus for the open your ears album i bought. But it will pass 16/48 as bitperfect right?


----------



## wberghofer

Quote:


pyramid6 said:


> It should work with the bifrost just fine.


 
   
  Can confirm this. Bifrost works flawlessly with an Apple Airport Express.
   
  Werner.


----------



## Kremer930

Most routers that are able to output digital should still work fine with iPhone and iTunes. It is the computer which does the communicating with the iPhone. I haven't personally tried the non AE brands though. I ended up just moving my mac book pro and external drive to near my headphone rig. 
   
  Check out some other threads on this topic or Computer Audiophioe.


----------



## hp300plus

Some of the DAC makers (and forums) claim the upsampling helps reduce jitter.  Not sure how true that is, but that might be the difference people hear with upsampling... not so much 'new' bits/info being added to the music, rather the further reduction in jitter from the higher amount of times the data is being sampled.
  
  Quote: 





judmarc said:


> *A Li'l 'Speriment*
> 
> Remarks by some DAC makers and software authors over at Computer Audiophile got me interested in trying sample rate conversion in software prior to feeding the signal to the Bifrost.
> 
> Long story short, after the Gillian Welch, Mark Knopfler and Rosanne Cash I provisionally felt I preferred upsampling.


 
   
  Quote: 





judmarc said:


> I haven't.  I have a very hard time thinking this would make a difference, since AFAIK a DAC chip's registers will "zero pad" the missing 8 or 16 LSBs anyway (depending on whether the file has a 16 bit or 24 bit word length, and whether the DAC's internal processing is 24 or 32-bit; the Bifrost's AKM chip does 32-bit internal processing IIRC).  Moreover, I can't see how zero padding the LSBs, whether in or prior to the DAC, would change the sound, since the resulting loudness values are exactly the same, like 1 and 1.00000000 (that's 1 with 8 LSBs zero padded).  It's not like changing the sample rate, where interpolated loudness values are added, resulting in most of the bitstream (147,900 samples per second in the case of upsampling from 44.1 to 192) actually being new sound that wasn't present before.
> 
> So - don't see how zero padding would change sound, and even if it did, it's happening every time you listen to your DAC anyway.
> 
> Of course Steve Nugent has forgotten more about audio than I'll ever know, so I guess some humility is appropriate....


----------



## kchau

I forgot I had an airport express hooked up to my speakers, but i was doing some reading and i found out that the AE has a burr brown pcm2705 dac inside, which does not have an amp built in. so i decided to A-B that with my ipod 4th gen line out, and the ipod had a much bigger sound stage, and it was more detailed. 
   
  Since we're on the topic about the AE and toslink, how is it possible to control the volume if the digital out bypasses the dac component?


----------



## Kremer930

It has been a while since I used it in my rig but I think the Mac adjusts its signal strength.  I used to use my iphone Remote app to select songs and route it via the AE. The iphone can then adjust the volume remotely.   It worked quite well but I ended up buying a Onkyo ND-S1 dock to extract digital directly out of my ipod as well as moving my laptop near the rig.
   
  The iphone app is great for quickly finding a song in amongst the many albums.
   
  I wasnt a great fan of the Onkyo at first but now I am finding that it is very close to the sound output from my Mac playing PureMusic.  I have an aftermarket power supply for it and find that Coax is the nicest on the dock.


----------



## Jason Stoddard

Hey all,
   
  Here's a long-awaited update on where we are and what's coming up this year. 
   
  As you may have known, we've been spending all our time ramping up production (Bifrost caught us WAY off guard, and ongoing demand for the other products continues to increase.) Because of this, we're late on a bunch of planned products. Sorry, sorry. White iPhone and all that. So here's where we are, in convenient FAQ format:
   
  Q: What the heck have you guys been doing anyway? Sitting around, eating bonbons, watching Star Trek?
  A: None of the above, actually. We've been working with our board house, our suppliers, and our production staff (yes, we now have staff) to increase capacity and ensure products are in stock. This is beginning to pay off as of, well, right now. It's entirely possible that our current backorders will be the last for a long time.
   
  Q: Fine. Cool. We get it. What about the new stuff?
  A: Okay, let's talk new products. Here's what we currently have planned: at least two pairs of products, one coming in Q1 and one coming in Q2. That's the current plan. Estimated. As in "guess." In Q1, we plan on introducing our first balanced DAC and balanced amp. In Q2, we plan on introducing our "statement" balanced DAC and balanced amp pair. 
   
  Q: Sizes, prices, features? Tell us more!
  A: All of the new products will be larger than the current products. The "midrange" products will be approximately 16 x 8 x 2.25", and the "statement" products will be taller and deeper than that. Unfortunately, beyond that, we can't talk price or feature set, for obvious reasons. What I will say is that we're sticking to our earlier statement that all new products (even the midrange ones) will be "one and only" products--using unique technology, and/or offering unparalleled performance, especially in their price range.
   
  Q: So, is this going to be another "preorder and wait forever" deal like Bifrost?
  A: No. That's one reason we're so late. Our preorders will be much shorter and more certain in the future.
   
  Again, sorry for the delays. It was a heck of a 2011, but 2012 will be even more interesting!
   
  All the best,
  Jason


----------



## mmayer167

Great update Jason! 
   
  The new year sounds really exciting from Schiit  
   
  -M


----------



## Maxvla

Thanks for the update. Looking forward to the statement.


----------



## luke99

Is the airport express like a squeezebox?


----------



## Rebel975

Quote: 





maxvla said:


> Thanks for the update. Impatiently looking forward to the statement.


 
   

 This.


----------



## livewire

Thank you for the update! A good read indeed.


----------



## dyl1dyl

Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> Hey all,
> 
> Here's a long-awaited update on where we are and what's coming up this year.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Just one thing, when you say Q1, do you mean it will be available in Q1 or announced in Q1?


----------



## Edoardo

Announced on March 31st LOL...


----------



## sorue

Jason: Thank you for the update. Regarding the Q1 DAC, can you elaborate more about the USB code that will be used, same as in the Bifrost? Will it also be the CS8416 + AKM4396?
   
  edit: just realized Jason already answered all my questions in the FAQ. lol, my bad


----------



## Kremer930

Thanks Jason for the update.  It is good to know the approx dimensions too.  
   
  I am really happy for you and Schiit.  Your level of success is greatly deserved, even if it is causing me to learn patience.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  So what is going to come after the Statement gear?  If you have generated such a fantastic reputation and level of good will just from the lower end products...I wonder what will happen when you start to offer up some seriously awesome gear.
   
  Whatever it is... I wish you continued success.


----------



## M-13

Awesome Jason! Can't wait...


----------



## sampson_smith

Thanks for the update, Jason. The Lyr/Bifrost combo that I am currently enjoying will be in use for many years to come, but I am excited to perhaps obtain statement DAC and amp Schiit in the fourth quarter of next year, if I can afford it! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  You should seriously consider writing a headphone-centic audiophile handbook to help us simple folk understand the jargon. The humor and honesty that you somehow juggle on you site is an excellent read and as funny as it is informative. Keep up the great work!


----------



## judmarc

Quote: 





hp300plus said:


> Some of the DAC makers (and forums) claim the upsampling helps reduce jitter.  Not sure how true that is, but that might be the difference people hear with upsampling... not so much 'new' bits/info being added to the music, rather the further reduction in jitter from the higher amount of times the data is being sampled.


 


   
  I can see a variation of this being a reason for the difference.  Jitter is not actually reduced (in fact as sample rates get higher, the same timing errors - the "noise" - become relatively larger compared to the narrower timing tolerances of the sampling - the "signal").  But one thing upsampling does allow is that audible artifacts caused by jitter and/or filtering (which is necessary to convert digital to analog) can be moved out of the audible range.


----------



## 45longcolt

In the Feb. 2012 The Absolute Sound magazine's coverage of RMAF, Steven Stone names the Bifrost "Greatest Bargain (for the money)." Also there's a nice big picture.
   
  No mention of the sound, though.
   
  Congrats to Jason and all the Schiit Squad, though this ain't gonna do anything good for the backorder sitauation or the intro of new products...


----------



## davidvanderbilt

Has anyone compared the Bifrost to the Yulong D100? I'm trying to decide between the two


----------



## Dougeefresh

Can someone with a Bitfrost and Mac Pro help me with the cable I need?
  Do I need a *toslink-to-toslink* cable or *toslink-to-mini-toslink *cable? I am pretty sure the Mac Pro has a toslink in/out but not sure about Bitforst.
  Thanks!


----------



## christophrowley

Quote: 





dougeefresh said:


> Can someone with a Bitfrost and Mac Pro help me with the cable I need?
> Do I need a *toslink-to-toslink* cable or *toslink-to-mini-toslink *cable? I am pretty sure the Mac Pro has a toslink in/out but not sure about Bitforst.
> Thanks!


 

 Full size toslink on both ends.


----------



## Dougeefresh

Quote: 





christophrowley said:


> Full size toslink on both ends.


 


  Thanks!


----------



## leesure

Quote: 





christophrowley said:


> Full size toslink on both ends.


 


  INCORRECT, full toslink does NOT fit into the Mac. If you get a full toslink, you will need an adapter to make it fit.  They are inexpensive and available, but you'll want to anticipate this and have one around lest you find yourself music-less while you wait for another shipment to arrive.


----------



## leesure

Here's the adaptor to go into the Mac's headphone/optical combo jack.
   
  http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?is=REG&sku=516240&Q=&O=&A=details


----------



## leesure

Back up...I'm wrong...IF you have a newer Mac Pro.  I was thinking about everything else they have (except the Air, which has no optical at all)
   
  http://www.apple.com/macpro/specs.html


----------



## christophrowley

Quote: 





leesure said:


> Back up...I'm wrong...IF you have a newer Mac Pro.  I was thinking about everything else they have (except the Air, which has no optical at all)
> 
> http://www.apple.com/macpro/specs.html


 


  It's useful to have adapters lying around anyway and the I have heard people use "Mac Pro"  for MacBook Pro before, which would indeed need an adapter.


----------



## Misterrogers

Ideally, you'd want an optical cable with the correct connectors - forgoing the need for an adaptor. Refraction is a real issue in optical performance, and adaptors tend to increase refraction.


----------



## bingobango

Hi guys. Silly question, what exactly does 'balanced' mean with regards to output for the highly anticipated next Schiit DAC release? Seen it mentioned a hundred times and don't know what it is..

Since I'm asking questions, might as well try this one out too: I'm planning on buying this sexy piece of machinery to accompany an overhaul of my hi-fi system. It will accompany a marantze PM8004 amp, a pair of paradigm studio 20 speakers, and a mac mini with 800+ gig's of lossless/flac's. My question is, at this level of equipment, is the Bifrost more than sufficient, or should I wait for the mid range unit. I know this forum caters mostly to headphone audiophiles, but I'm sure some of you can make that assesment.

Cheers!

Edit: apparently Android's autocorrect on audiophile is pedophile, happy I caught that..


----------



## Anaxilus

.


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





misterrogers said:


> Ideally, you'd want an optical cable with the correct connectors - forgoing the need for an adaptor. Refraction is a real issue in optical performance, and adaptors tend to increase refraction.


 

 x2
   
  I have them if need be but prefer to avoid them.  I'm actually getting such inconsistent performance via different toslink implementations I'm just going to avoid it where possible now and go Coax.  I'd rather deal w/ the torture of rolling NOS tubes which seems like more of a known quantity with greater resources to research by comparison.


----------



## leesure

Quote: 





anaxilus said:


> x2
> 
> I have them if need be but prefer to avoid them.  I'm actually getting such inconsistent performance via different toslink implementations I'm just going to avoid it where possible now and go Coax.  I'd rather deal w/ the torture of rolling NOS tubes which seems like more of a known quantity with greater resources to research by comparison.


 


   
  Coax isn't an option for me in my 2 main systems, but I have taken to using USB in one of them because the optical was significantly worse sounding.  Not sure if t was due to the source or the DAC's receiver implementation, but the optical was glarey and harsh compared to the USB.


----------



## Kremer930

Agree. The optical out of my Onkyo  nd-s1 dock is slightly bright and treble hot compared to the coaxial from the same. The coax has better bass texture too. From my mac I have tried optical and USB and there was not much difference.  So I now use USB as it allows me to output 24/192. The USB from the mac is very close in sound quality to the coax from my dock. Even when using PureMusic on the mac. I didn't ever expect the dock to close that gap but it largely has. It took a long time of burning in the after market power supply and dock to get to that point though. I didn't like the dock for ages when I first bought it. 
   
  I have never done a full on comparison but I have set both output sources playing in sync with each other and it is easy to tell when hearing the optical. I have even closed my eyes and made sure that I could not know which input was selected and could still pIck it.


----------



## Dougeefresh

I am torn and I need help!
  I ordered Asgard and Bifrost (back-ordered, btw) without the USB board. I will be using this rig with a Mac Pro (not MBP)
  I was planning to get a Silflex toslink cable ($60 + SH) and use that but now I am thinking maybe I should just add the $100 USB board and be done I've read hundreds of posts about USB vs. optical comparison and there is no clear winner.
  Is there really any quality difference between the two?
  Thoughts?


----------



## Misterrogers

I have (or had) the same setup/decision. While it ultimately comes down to your source, preferences, etc. If my source was at 24/96 or less, I would have preferred the spdif/Silflex route. If I had 24/192 source, then the USB is better than the computer downsampling. My take was that the Bifrost optical receiver implementation was slightly better than its USB. Again, others felt differently so you'll have to be the ultimate judge. One thing to keep in mind - Bifrosts USB doesn't handle 24/176. I ended up getting an Audiophilleo which has a much better USB implementation and connects to Bifrost via coaxial. This setup gives me the best sound and all sample rates (up to 192).
   
   
  Quote: 





dougeefresh said:


> I am torn and I need help!
> I ordered Asgard and Bifrost (back-ordered, btw) without the USB board. I will be using this rig with a Mac Pro (not MBP)
> I was planning to get a Silflex toslink cable ($60 + SH) and use that but now I am thinking maybe I should just add the $100 USB board and be done I've read hundreds of posts about USB vs. optical comparison and there is no clear winner.
> Is there really any quality difference between the two?
> Thoughts?


----------



## leesure

I use the optical out of the Pure iPod dock to the Bifrost and found it better than the USB from the iPad and/or MBP, but I'm playing only 16bit, 44kHz ALAC files.  It was, however, quite close.  The USB implementation is very good on the Bifrost.


----------



## sphinxvc

Quote:


bingobango said:


> Hi guys. Silly question, what exactly does 'balanced' mean with regards to output for the highly anticipated next Schiit DAC release? Seen it mentioned a hundred times and don't know what it is..
> Since I'm asking questions, might as well try this one out too: I'm planning on buying this sexy piece of machinery to accompany an overhaul of my hi-fi system. It will accompany a marantze PM8004 amp, a pair of paradigm studio 20 speakers, and a mac mini with 800+ gig's of lossless/flac's. My question is, at this level of equipment, is the Bifrost more than sufficient, or should I wait for the mid range unit. I know this forum caters mostly to headphone audiophiles, but I'm sure some of you can make that assesment.
> Cheers!
> Edit: apparently Android's autocorrect on audiophile is pedophile, happy I caught that..


 
   
  In layman's terms, if your amp accepts balanced inputs [XLRs] (and is a fully balanced amp) you will be able to use the balanced outputs of the mid-tier DAC for a marginal gain in sound quality (compared to the single ended outputs of the mid-tier).  Your second question does not really compute properly, but I would venture to guess your Paradigm speakers are resolving enough to leverage anything the mid-tier unit has to offer over the Bifrost.  Hope that helps.


----------



## Dougeefresh

Thanks. I've decided to go with the Silflex and see how that sounds since the DAC and amp just got shipped


----------



## leesure

Enjoy!  Which headphones will you be using primarily?


----------



## leesure

Quote: 





bingobango said:


> Hi guys. Silly question, what exactly does 'balanced' mean with regards to output for the highly anticipated next Schiit DAC release? Seen it mentioned a hundred times and don't know what it is..
> Since I'm asking questions, might as well try this one out too: I'm planning on buying this sexy piece of machinery to accompany an overhaul of my hi-fi system. It will accompany a marantze PM8004 amp, a pair of paradigm studio 20 speakers, and a mac mini with 800+ gig's of lossless/flac's. My question is, at this level of equipment, is the Bifrost more than sufficient, or should I wait for the mid range unit. I know this forum caters mostly to headphone audiophiles, but I'm sure some of you can make that assesment.
> Cheers!
> Edit: apparently Android's autocorrect on audiophile is pedophile, happy I caught that..


 


  http://www.mediacollege.com/audio/balanced/


----------



## Dougeefresh

Quote: 





leesure said:


> Enjoy!  Which headphones will you be using primarily?


 


  I listen to D7000 a lot more than PRO900, and was told that Denons do better with a SS amp due to their low impedance.
  Besides, they will be sitting on my work desk so I prefer the unassuming look of Asgard compared to the vacuum-tube lit Valhalaa or Lyr. Coworkers will think either I am loaded or crazy for spending so much money (in their standards) and I hope to have neither impressions.


----------



## TEH725

I'd also agree.  Coax out of the ND-S1 (with upgraded power supply) is much better than optical.
   
  However, I have had better luck experimenting with optical out of a mac mini running Audirvana plus.  Very close to the sound I get from the dock and maybe better.  Leaves me wondering if the iPod via dock like the ND-S1 or similar transport bypasses all the signal processing the same way Audirvana does on the mini.


----------



## Kremer930

Interesting re the optical out of the mac mini. I might have to reconnect optical out of the MBP and compare against the USB output from the same and then coax from the dock.  Logic tells me that I should get the best sound by usIng optical from the mac but so far the USB has really impressed. Perhaps a job for a quiet night!  I wish the macs could output 24/192 via either coax or optical.


----------



## olor1n

Just received my Bifrost after waiting for the backorder to be filled and what seemed longer than usual wait time for postage. Elated to open the package only to find they had sent me the non USB version and the 115V version. I payed for the USB interface, and being in Australia, require 230V.
   
  Sending this unit back to the US will be incredibly inconvenient and it will be a trial to play the waiting game again. Incredibly frustrated and disappointed that a simple thing couldn't be done right the first time.


----------



## Anaxilus

Let's say I'm less concerned about the optical on the Bifrost as I might be of some implementations feeding it.  My 2 cents.


----------



## pseudohippy

That sucks man. These things happen, now let us know how they deal with it. Perhaps they will cross ship it after you send them tracking info. Perhaps they will even pay both ends of the shipping since its their fault. All they can do now is try to repair the damage with you, Im interested to see what happens.
  
  Quote: 





olor1n said:


> Just received my Bifrost after waiting for the backorder to be filled and what seemed longer than usual wait time for postage. Elated to open the package only to find they had sent me the non USB version and the 115V version. I payed for the USB interface, and being in Australia, require 230V.
> 
> Sending this unit back to the US will be incredibly inconvenient and it will be a trial to play the waiting game again. Incredibly frustrated and disappointed that a simple thing couldn't be done right the first time.


----------



## Dougeefresh

Quote: 





olor1n said:


> Just received my Bifrost after waiting for the backorder to be filled and what seemed longer than usual wait time for postage. Elated to open the package only to find they had sent me the non USB version and the 115V version. I payed for the USB interface, and being in Australia, require 230V.
> 
> Sending this unit back to the US will be incredibly inconvenient and it will be a trial to play the waiting game again. Incredibly frustrated and disappointed that a simple thing couldn't be done right the first time.


 

 Hey, that's the one I ordered! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  Yeah, that does really suck and it would be interesting to see what Jason will do.
  IMO, since it's 100% their fault (assuming that you have the invoice to prove it), they should cover the return shipping as well especially if it's an international parcel. Good luck!


----------



## Jason Stoddard

Yep, already replied to olor1n--we're paying for shipping back, shipping him a correct Bifrost as soon as we have his tracking number, and expediting shipping of the correct one (EMS vs Priority) on our dime.
   
  And yep, we screw up. But we also do our best to make it right.


----------



## olor1n

The response from Jason was very prompt. I've just sent the unit off and am confident everything will work out in the end. Just have to exercise some patience.


----------



## kchau

Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> Yep, already replied to olor1n--we're paying for shipping back, shipping him a correct Bifrost as soon as we have his tracking number, and expediting shipping of the correct one (EMS vs Priority) on our dime.
> 
> And yep, we screw up. But we also do our best to make it right.


 


  schiit happens


----------



## adfinni

Badum Tshhhh 
  Quote: 





kchau said:


> schiit happens


 

  Unfortunately I have the headphone itch again and shall be ordering one of these badboys.
   
  Jason, any idea when any UK stockist will have stock as atm it looks like I just order one from yourselves rather than waiting a long time?


----------



## drgajet

Schiit rocks!!!  Great customer service Jason. Expecting my lyr to ship any day.


----------



## Dougeefresh

Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> Yep, already replied to olor1n--we're paying for shipping back, shipping him a correct Bifrost as soon as we have his tracking number, and expediting shipping of the correct one (EMS vs Priority) on our dime.
> 
> And yep, we screw up. But we also do our best to make it right.


 


  Excellent customer service!
  Mine's getting here on Tuesday and can't wait


----------



## TEH725

No issues with Bifrost.  It provided the biggest improvement in sound to my system since I got back into this hobby.
   
  For now, I'll be sticking with the dock and coax, but as I get more hi-res, I'll try the mini again.  I will at least look to upgrading my optical cable any try some of the other players.


----------



## Llloyd

Yeah, my bifrost made a very large difference coming from the HM101, as you'd probably expect.  Using the spdif mini from my creative xfi card with WASAPI.  It's pretty magical.


----------



## TubeDriver

I posted my impressions of the Schiit Bifrost vs a lightly modded DagMagic over in the AudioAsylum review section.  I don't use headphones so YMMV but I found the DAC reviews/comments on this site helpful for choosing a replacement DAC.
   
   
  I just got a Schiit Bifrost USB DAC and the comparison with my older, slightly modded Cambridge Audio DacMagic has been interesting. I could just report on how the Bifrost sounds but I think a comparison between the two DACs gives a better picture of how these things sound. The DacMagic is certainly a known quantity and has been reviewed, demoed, and/or owned by a large sample of the audiophile community.

 While vinyl still reigns supreme, I frequently listen to digital music. Digital source is a Windows 7, Quad core I7 2.2 laptop with 12GB ram, running Foobar (WASAPI, no dither, 350ms output buffer, 24 bit output) while the rest of the system uses SET tube pre/amps and horn speakers.

 My DacMagic has been modded so that only 2 out of the 3 output opamps are used and the output caps have been bypassed (by a piece of solid core silver wire). The modded DacMagic sound is big (probably bigger than it should be) with a presentation that stretches across the speakers and fills the soundstage from the floor to the ceiling. There is a limitation in terms of depth, the sound stage while wide and tall is somewhat two dimensional. The DacMagic does project into the room (perhaps due to the slight “reverb” like effect I describe below) but depth behind the speakers is limited. The DacMagic has a clearly elevated bass, it is substantial, fat and a bit loose. Macrodynamics are good, detail retrieval is excellent (even exaggerated) and overall transparency is good. Tonally, the DacMagic is slightly on the side of warm although it’s overall balance can be described as warmish/neutral. Probably the biggest downside of the DacMagic is a slightly phasey/electronic signature that is ever present. I always attributed this sound in part to the upsampling nature of the DacMagic, it sounds a little bit like the output of the DacMagic is running through a reverb box. This effect makes everything bigger, instrumental notes have a long, long lingering decay, vocals have a soaring aspect (and sibilance is exaggerated) and sound stage “air” is readily apparent. Almost everything sounds like it was recorded in an underdamped, lively, empty church. The somewhat bloated bass response of the DacMagic acts pleasurably like a loudness/Munson-Fletcher curve switch when listening at lower than average levels. The overall sound is big, lively and fun with the jazz and rock music that makes up the vast majority of my listening.

 The Bifrost arrived neatly packed. The construction/appearance appears nicely done with a simple, well designed look that could pass for a lifestyle type device. Features include asynchronous USB 2.0 input as well as Toslink and RCA S/PDIF digital inputs (all 24/192)with a single set of outputs. The Bifrost does not formally upsample digital input (although this is debatable). The DAC has an upgradable DAC board module and an upgradable USB input module. Setup is as simple as can be, plug it in with a cable of your choice (DIY 14AWG solid core woven in my case), connect a digital input (Toslink, USB or RCS S/PDIV), select the input and it makes music. If you are going to be running USB, you have to install drivers that are available online at Schiit.  Levels were not matched for this comparison, the output of the DacMagic is about .7db higher than the BiFrost.  Absolute phase appear to be non-inverted in both the BiFrost and the DacMagic (although the DacMagic does have a phase inversion switch).

 Fresh out of the box (and connected with USB), the Bifrost sound was very different from my DacMagic. My initial impression was that this DAC is more laid back/recessed, more focused, smaller sounding, with a smaller bottom end. A couple things really jumped out. The phasey “reverb” like quality of the DacMagic was completely absent. Vocals and instruments appeared much smaller but more finely focused/delineated. While soundstage depth and width were reduced, depth was better in the Bifrost with vocals appearing to come from far behind the speakers. Listening to the Drive By Truckers lead singer Patterson Hood on "A Blessing and a Curse" resulted in a slightly smaller, but very focused and tonally accurate Hood standing several feet behind my speakers while the DacMagic presents Hood as a giant mouth several feet across singing in line with or slightly behind my speakers. While vocals and instruments have great definition through the Bifrost, there was not a lot of cohesion. Each instrument/vocal while cleanly portrayed, suffered from a sense of dislocation from each other ie the Bifrost highlighted individual performers at the cost of losing the overall musical synergy in a performance. Listening to Duke Ellington and Johnny Hodges on "Side by Side", I was initially struck by how distant and isolated the performers sounded (and nothing could be further from the truth on this recording or in this performance). I have never been that concerned with PRAT (perhaps because my SET/horn system just naturally boogies) but it was very hard to feel the tempo and drive of the performance at this point (and this seems almost an impossibility with "Side by Side".

 Tonally, the Bifrost appeared essentially neutral although vocals lost some of the “chestiness” presented by the DacMagic. Vocals initially sounded comparatively threadbare and somewhat “nasal” through the Bifrost when compared to the DacMagic. While I would not describe the Bifrost as cold or clinical, it certainly was less romantic and warm then the DacMagic. High frequencies were far more prominent in the Bifrost with excellent focus, detail and control. Somewhat surprising (in light of the excellent hi-freq reproduction) was that the sense of “air” or the reproduction of the recording space surrounding the performers/instrument was diminished in the Bifrost compared to the almost artificially enhanced sense of space and air produced by the DacMagic. While the DacMagic had more of this quality, more is not always better and I felt that the DacMagic was providing a little too much of a good thing. Combined, these vocal/hi-freq/"air" differences could clearly be heard while listening to Robert Plant and Alison Krause's album "Rising Sand" or Don Chamber's "Zebulon".

 The bottom end/bass as reproduced by the Bifrost was leaner, tighter and more detailed, however this lean bass tilted the overall sound slightly towards its exceptional reproduction of high frequencies. I prefer the full bodied sound provided by the DacMagic but clearly the Bifrost was presenting textures/subtleties in the lower frequencies that simply did not exist through the DacMagic.

 In terms of background blackness, the Bifrost has greater “emptiness” when things get quiet and/or between notes, which I suppose is desirable. On the other hand, the DacMagic did such a stellar job of portraying the ambiance of the recording event in space/time that even between notes you often got a sense of the where people were standing/sitting etc. There was no hum/noise issues noted with either DAC. I was unable to determine if either DAC was turned on/off with my ear about 6” away from a 100db efficient horn speaker. The outboard AC transformer of the DacMagic runs very hot (the plastic case surrounding the AC stepdown transformer is brittle due to the heat and one of the screws just fell out because the threads broke) while the Bifrost case runs fairly cool.

 So, overall the Bifrost sounded very focused, a bit lean, somewhat analytical, very controlled but with a loss of PRAT and musical cohesion. A big disappointment, both my wife and I preferred my old DacMagic at this point. This was somewhat of a surprise as the Schiit DAC has many aspects that I consider desirable (Made in USA by a small company with eccentric personalities and principles but with solid R&D, engineering and production experience and features such as non-upsampling, async USB 2.0, discrete JFET output stage) in a nice looking, and apparently well designed piece of audio gear.

 This initial comparison was with a USB connection to the BF and a Toslink connection to the DacMagic. I tried reversing the connections and found that the overall results remained the same. The Toslink input on both DACs appeared to provide a little more bottom end weight/bloom when compared to the USB input as well as a slightly warmer sounding presentation. I preferred the Toslink connection with both DACs although the difference was not as great as I expected. All comparisons were done with both USB and Toslink for each DAC. I finally settled on the toslink connection as the one I will use going forward with the Bifrost.

 A little later on……. aka Holy mother of all burn-ins!

 I believe in and have experienced the sonic nature of a new component changing after it has some hours of use under its belt. Typically, the difference is fairly small and I have always attributed at least some of that perceived difference after burn-in as neurophysiological in nature. That said, I had my old DAC running as a reference to provide a stable baseline for comparison. Throughout this comparison, the modded DacMagic sounded roughly the same (any differences could be accounted for by my mood, the quality of the main AC, the movement of true polar north etc) while the Bifrost appeared to change (and to some extent is still changing at 100+ hours) its sonic presentation as the burn-in process continued.


 At 48 hours the somewhat nasal quality with vocals had disappeared and what remained was the Bifrost characteristic smooth, somewhat recessed, controlled and very neutral vocal balance. Singers started to sing more from their chest and less from their mouths. Vocals still present as smaller, more focused and with much greater depth when compared to the DacMagic. The Bifrost initially heavily favored the leading edge of notes, settled for smoothly controlling the body of that same note and minimized the trailing edge. As the break-in process continued, the portrayal of the beginning/main body/trailing edges started to bloom/fill in somewhat such that the middle/body of the note became more prominent while trailing edges lingered longer resulting in a more attractive and balanced sonic presentation. Dynamics (both micro and macro) increased during this period to a more acceptable level.

 The sense that the musicians were all playing separate solos also disappeared; the overall musical gestalt gelled such that the performance now overshadows the individual performers (except during solo efforts and where appropriate to the recording). PRAT made its appearance; the timing and the momentum generated by the artists performance was much easier to hear and feel. My head was nodding, my foot started tapping and my interest in the music increased significantly. Ellington and Hodges now rocked! Much better. At this point, my wife changed her earlier preference towards my original DacMagic to the Bifrost. I played several different tracks for her (she did not know which DAC was playing) and she now stated that she preferred the Bifrost.

 This improvement continued through the ~80 hour period. Bass became a little more full but continues to remain a little lighter in weight than I would prefer (and I am accustomed to). That said, the Bifrost bass that exists is very tight and tuneful with detail that simply did not exist when played through the DacMagic. The best of both worlds would be the quantity of bass of the DacMagic with the tunefulness and quality of bass supplied by the Bifrost.

 At this point in time, the Bifrost strikes me as a very neutral and detailed DAC with accurate tonal qualities, better than average (at this price point) micro and macrodynamics and good soundstage qualities (especially depth, perhaps slightly less so with height and width). Detail retrieval and focus are excellent. The overall sound is somewhat biased towards the mids and up and this probably remains my main criticism (I like a big fat musical ass). In some ways, this DAC appeals more to my mind than my heart. Poor recordings sound awful through the Bifrost while conversely, great recordings sound fabulous. In general, I prefer all my recordings to sound good and the DacMagic does a better job of helping to spruce up dead, overly compressed or just plain poorly recorded music. But in this case, the heights reached by the Bifrost on good or better recordings just outweighs my reservations regarding how poorly recorded material sounds.

 Is the Bifrost a better DAC than the modded DacMagic? I am keeping the Bifrost mainly because once the Bifrost highlighted the slightly phasy/electronic character that overlies the DacMagic’s portrayal of music, it simply became impossible to ignore; just like the first time you spot a small door ding on your new car, that small ding now jumps out at you EVERY time you walk up to the vehicle. The DIYer in me wonders about messing around with the output stage but in general I like and prefer the Bifrost as the DAC (and my brain) continues to break-in. The bottom line is that more I listen to the Bifrost, the more I appreciate its ability to untangle the messy bits coming out of my laptop. Is it a giant killer? Not really, at this time in point we expect excellent performance from even modestly priced DACs. A more expensive DAC would probably provide more of everything. Still, this level of performance (and in an American designed and manufactured product of such appealing appearance and apparent build quality) at this price point just rocks and provides for me a sense that perhaps American ingenuity/craftsmanship/production can be competitive with products mass produced overseas.


----------



## Misterrogers

Very good read/review TubeDriver. You've capture my experience with Bifrost to a 'T'.


----------



## Gauss1777

Very nice review! I wonder how would Bifrost compare against the Yulong D18. The only thing I don't like from what TubeDriver wrote about the Bifrost is "The bottom end/bass as reproduced by the Bifrost was leaner". From what I read about the D18 are wonders but a direct comparison with the DACs on the I-want-list is desirable.
 ​ I'm using now a Bottlehead Crack with HD600 and an iBasso D12 as DAC with redbook FLACs. Sincerely I feel the only thing I want to improve the most is the bass; I need something more defined, more atack, cleaner low end. A better soundstage and separation of voices and instruments would be a plus.​


----------



## Misterrogers

Depending on your chain, Bifrost's bass may be tight and very impactful. With Palladium IC's and the silver cable, my HE-500's has VERY strong bass. At the moment, Bifrost is feeding a BA and Modded HD800's. Bass is more than fine 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
  Quote: 





gauss1777 said:


> Very nice review! I wonder how would Bifrost compare against the Yulong D18. The only thing I don't like from what TubeDriver wrote about the Bifrost is "The bottom end/bass as reproduced by the Bifrost was leaner". From what I read about the D18 are wonders but a direct comparison with the DACs on the I-want-list is desirable.
> ​ I'm using now a Bottlehead Crack with HD600 and an iBasso D12 as DAC with redbook FLACs. Sincerely I feel the only thing I want to improve the most is the bass; I need something more defined, more atack, cleaner low end. A better soundstage and separation of voices and instruments would be a plus.​


----------



## TubeDriver

I would echo what mrrogers stated.  The Bifrost bass is very fast, tight and detailed.  I don't really think it is bass shy but my personal preferences would be for just a little more of it.  I am still adjusting a bit from the more bloated bass of the DacMagic but the Bifrost does go deep, it just is more controlled then what I am used to.  
   
  Bifrost bass = quality over quantity
   
  Dacmagic bass = quantity over quality


----------



## Argo Duck

Very nice review TubeDriver. I agree very closely with your read of the Bifrost, this from a headphone (Bifrost vs two other dacs) perspective.


----------



## TEH725

I'd agree it chain dependent.  I listen to speakers the majority of time.  I liked the bass from Bifrost, but after I upgraded my amp power cord from a Crump Asylum DIY to the Belden 83803 DIY, I really liked it.  Better definition, deeper more powerful etc. etc.  I feel I have both quantity and quality.
   
  FWIW, I tried both DIY power cords on Bifrost just to experiment and did not hear a difference from stock.


----------



## ninjikiran

that's because you were hearing the recording.  If you want impactful bass much of that should be handled by the endpoint devices.  Your headphones and/or Woofers.  Or even a tube amp imo.


----------



## Dougeefresh

I just got Bifrost/Asgard combo and have been using them for about 15 hours. I must say that, so far, I am not impressed with the bass quality & quantity. It sounds like the bass is recessed so there is less of it especially sub-bass that I used to love with D7000. Also, highs are a bit brighter than what I am used to (E7/E9). I am hoping they will improve as they break-in...
  They do warm my hands quite nicely though.


----------



## wkhanna

A well written and conveyed review of the Bifrost.
Thanks for taking the time to put this together, TubeDriver.
I can imagine your ‘flea-watt’ system really putting the life into some well recorded club jazz like Bill Evans' _'Sunday at the Village Vangaurd'_.


----------



## Maxvla

dougeefresh said:


> I just got Bifrost/Asgard combo and have been using them for about 15 hours. I must say that, so far, I am not impressed with the bass quality & quantity. It sounds like the bass is recessed so there is less of it especially sub-bass that I used to love with D7000. Also, highs are a bit brighter than what I am used to (E7/E9). I am hoping they will improve as they break-in...
> They do warm my hands quite nicely though.




I have to say I wasn't all that impressed with the Asgard when I heard it at RMAF. It was decent, but nothing special. The price is quite reasonable for what you do get, though, ($250 vs my $800 amp w/tube upgrade) especially considering the parts sourcing and labor is almost entirely American.The Bifrost is certainly a keeper for me, at least until Schiit releases their statement DAC.

One thing you might keep in mind though is the D7000 is pretty sloppy with it's bass. There's a lot of it and it's not well defined. If you have become used to this you will find anything that controls the D7000s wild bass recessed. Give it some dedicated time to get used to, then return to your previous set up after a week or two and see if you still prefer the old ways.


----------



## TubeDriver

Give the Bifrost around 80 hours of playing time and you will find bass improves somewhat.   I  now have about 150+ hours on the Bifrost and midrange and bass have   improved (bigger and fuller) and are catching up to the higher frequencies.


----------



## TubeDriver

Thanks.  I am pretty evenly split between rock and jazz.  You might be surprised to hear what can come from 8 watts with 100 deb efficient horns.  
   

  


> Originally Posted by wkhanna
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## TubeDriver

My Bifrost has a USB card but I have settled on using the Toslink input.  I wonder if there would be any audible benifits if I pulled out the USB module?


----------



## sampson_smith

I also agree that sufficient burn-in is needed to let the Bifrost "even out". At approx. 100-150 hours-- I do not keep very careful track-- the bass and mid's have synergized better with the already impressive treble. All in all, I now find myself listening only to enjoy the tunes at hand, as all the technical details have been ironed out and cast to the side. Thank you Schiit. I very much like what the Lyr/Bifrost provides my orthoplanars!


----------



## shamrock134

So what's the verdict on the LCD2 rev1/Lyr/Bifrost combo?


----------



## sampson_smith

It is excellent with my LCD-2 rev.2's (using Gold Lions, primarily) and I expect that it would be also very good with the earlier version LCD-2's.


----------



## mmayer167

It was quite magical for the time i was able to hear a lcd2rv2 with my lyr/bifrost with lorenz tubes. lots of creamy goodness. 
   
  -M


----------



## sampson_smith

What is the serial number/production era for those Lorenz tubes, if you don't mind, mmayer167?


----------



## mmayer167

This is the tube I have, though you will probably have an impossible time finding more of these since everyone on the lyr-tuberolling thread gobbled them up. 
   
http://www.tubemonger.com/LORENZ_Stuttgart_PCC88_7DJ8_Gray_Shield_Germany_p/1054.htm
   
  -M


----------



## olor1n

Quote: 





olor1n said:


> Just received my Bifrost after waiting for the backorder to be filled and what seemed longer than usual wait time for postage. Elated to open the package only to find they had sent me the non USB version and the 115V version. I payed for the USB interface, and being in Australia, require 230V.
> 
> Sending this unit back to the US will be incredibly inconvenient and it will be a trial to play the waiting game again. Incredibly frustrated and disappointed that a simple thing couldn't be done right the first time.


 
   
  Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> Yep, already replied to olor1n--we're paying for shipping back, shipping him a correct Bifrost as soon as we have his tracking number, and expediting shipping of the correct one (EMS vs Priority) on our dime.
> 
> And yep, we screw up. But we also do our best to make it right.


 
   
  Quote: 





olor1n said:


> The response from Jason was very prompt. I've just sent the unit off and am confident everything will work out in the end. Just have to exercise some patience.


 


  Well I just received the replacement. The input selector is just a hole. The button is missing. Are these guys for real?
   
  Haven't popped the case yet for fear of voiding the warranty, but it doesn't sound like the button has disappeared inside. Some of the screws look worn so I also question if I've received a refurbished unit. Not happy.


----------



## caracara08

picutres? would suck if that was true.


----------



## olor1n

Are the input LEDs meant to be recessed within the case? The white LEDs just shine through 3 tiny holes for the input indicators and aren't even aligned with the holes. What?


----------



## MtnSloth

Yes. The LEDs are not flush with the outside of the case (i.e. they don't extend into the small holes cut in the case). However, the LEDs are properly aligned on my unit, and they are flush against the inside of the case . . . or at least I can't see a gap between the LEDs and the inside of the case when looking through the holes.
   
  It sounds like something went seriously wrong at the shop or in transit with your unit. Sorry, man.


----------



## olor1n

I have a Lyr and the power LED does not shine through just a tiny hole on the front, it is fitted flush in the hole. The Bifrost LEDs on this unit just shine through 3 holes.
   
  edit: thanks for the description MtnSloth. On this unit I can see a gap between LEDs and the inside of the case and like I said the LEDs aren't even aligned with the holes. Waiting for Jason's response but I'm plugging it in for now. I should at least be able to give this a listen unlike the first unit Schiit sent me.


----------



## MtnSloth

Yeah. The Lyr's LED does extend through the hole and is more or less flush with the outside of its case. I'm sure there is a reason, but I do prefer the way Schiit handled this with the Lyr.
   
  I am assuming you can manipulate the input selector without the button? Or is it just recessed? For what it is worth, the selector button on my Bifrost sticks maybe an 1/8" (2 or 3 mm) beyond the outside of the case. Throw on the switch is about the same as the distance that it sticks out from the case . . . should that be of any use to you.


----------



## Jason Stoddard

Quote: 





olor1n said:


> Well I just received the replacement. The input selector is just a hole. The button is missing. Are these guys for real?
> 
> Haven't popped the case yet for fear of voiding the warranty, but it doesn't sound like the button has disappeared inside. Some of the screws look worn so I also question if I've received a refurbished unit. Not happy.


 

 Just replied via email. Either this is a case of extreme shipping damage (board sheared off of standoffs kind of damage) or it's been tampered with. I looked at the Bifrost myself before it went, to confirm it was a 230V and it was functioning perfectly. 
   
  It's impossible that the button fell out of the chassis, since it's a single machined solid aluminum piece with a 0.125" step on the inside of the chassis.
   
  Sorry to hear about all the trouble! Please send photos and let me know what you find.


----------



## Argo Duck

Wow olor1n! Sounds like you should be promoted right to the head of the queue for Schiit's next DAC!
   
  No doubt at all Jason will sort this out but what bad luck. Hope you've got some listening time in anyway. Hang in there dude...


----------



## Kremer930

I agree that Olor1n has had an unfortunate chain of events occur with respect to his Bifrost order but I do think that publishing the event in advance of Schiit's opportunity to correct the matter leaves a little to be desired.  I certainly hope that Olor1n doesnt have a boss at work which operates on the same basis as he does or we will all be reading about Olor1n's mistakes before he gets a chance to correct them.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Wouldnt it be better to take this kind of event offline and deal with Jason via email rather than 'hang out your dirty laundry' in the public realm?  If there was no acceptable resolution after a reasonable period of time then yes, please tell the Headfi community, but otheriwse I would give Schiit the chance to correct without dragging their reputation through the mud.
   
  It looks llike Jason has done the right thing in fixing this situation.  Paying for the return shipping, personally inspecting the replacement unit before posting it back out is a pretty good standard.  Most other companies wouldnt measure up to this.  If the additional damage was caused by the freight carrier then that is outside of Jason's control.  Although, I guess, that Jason will also pick up the bill on that one and make sure that Olor1n is a happy and satisfied customer at the end of the day.
   
  I hope that Olor1n gets a perfectly working Schiit rig because besides being great value, they are a great bit of kit.


----------



## christophrowley

Quote: 





kremer930 said:


> I agree that Olor1n has had an unfortunate chain of events occur with respect to his Bifrost order but I do think that publishing the event in advance of Schiit's opportunity to correct the matter leaves a little to be desired.  I certainly hope that Olor1n doesnt have a boss at work which operates on the same basis as he does or we will all be reading about Olor1n's mistakes before he gets a chance to correct them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
   
  You could look at it that way or say that because people are very public about these things, Schiit and others have an opportunity to show how well they handle rare but inevitable situations where things go wrong. Personally, I find it reassuring but I can see where you're coming from.


----------



## Kremer930

I agree.  That is just my view and opinion on the situation.  Others may agree or disagree.  
   
  Each to their own.
   
  I guess the only certainty is that Jason will fix the situation in the end.  It is a shame that Olor1n has to go through the inconvenience and delay though.  But I guess with so many Schiit products going out the door now, a mistake has to happen sooner or later.
   
  Has anyone looked at how busy Schiit probably are these days?  I check their site quite often hoping to see the mid range gear being released or some other news put up and I notice that most of the Schiit gear is either in backorder or shipping back orders.  Considering Jason keeps ramping up production volumes, the increasing demand must be outpacing his efforts.
   
  No wonder the intermediate gear is delayed.


----------



## olor1n

You're being a tad bit defensive Kremer930. I didn't realise this was exclusively a Schiit appreciation thread. If it makes you feel better, and to undo some of mud slinging I've done, I do agree the Bifrost is a very good bit of kit and Jason has been very responsive. It cuts both ways on a public forum and the customer service on display is there for people to assess. If my ordeal ended with receiving an acceptable replacement after the botched order, then I probably would be singing the same tune you do in every single one of your posts here.
   
  Unfortunately that's not the case. With this particular unit there are 3 possibilities 1) It was tampered with in transit (courier or customs) despite there being no sign of mishandling or anything to indicate the package had been opened prior to delivery 2) Jason did not personally inspect the unit before sending it out like he is saying and Schiit have screwed up again 3) I'm lying about the whole thing. 1 seems the likely scenario but again there is nothing to indicate the package was mishandled, or that it was opened and the Bifrost disassembled, reassembled and repackaged before I received it.
   
  Either way I'm left in a lurch and still have not unboxed a unit worthy of the wait and grief like many of you have. Jason has offered a full refund to save me further hassle. I was able to give the Bifrost a quick listen and really liked what I heard. Not sure if it's enough to play the lottery again.


----------



## sridhar3

Quote:


olor1n said:


> Not sure if it's enough to play the lottery again.


 
   
  Pretty sure it won't be a lottery if he ships you a third unit.  I doubt Jason'll do anything short of inspect every part of the unit carefully before shipping one out to you again.  If anything were to be wrong with a third unit upon receipt, it'd have to do with something pertaining to shipping/customs.
   
  Besides, Jason has no incentive to ship you a bum unit.  I doubt shipping to Australia is cheap.


----------



## olor1n

Some sound impressions fwiw. Feeding a Lyr with '65 Bugle Boys and listening through a rev.2 LCD-2. Really open "airy" sound. Lacks the bottom end weight and refinement I'm used to from Audio-GD gear, but it actually seems a more balanced presentation across the spectrum. My greatest concern of a thin overly clinical sound is unfounded. There's head-boppin' and toe-tappin inducing synergy here. Even pre burn in there's non of the upper end brittleness I was expecting. The Amperex tubes may also be at play here, they are incredibly smooth imo.
   
  I have noted that cohesion seems to have improved from when I first turned the unit on yesterday. I expect the bass to improve with burn in as others have documented. If that doesn't eventuate tube rolling is also an option.


----------



## Dougeefresh

Quote: 





kremer930 said:


> I agree that Olor1n has had an unfortunate chain of events occur with respect to his Bifrost order but I do think that publishing the event in advance of Schiit's opportunity to correct the matter leaves a little to be desired.  I certainly hope that Olor1n doesnt have a boss at work which operates on the same basis as he does or we will all be reading about Olor1n's mistakes before he gets a chance to correct them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I don't mind seeing, no, I rather like to see this kind of posts about vendors.
  Everyone makes mistakes once in a while but what matters more to me is how it's handled after the milk is spilled.
  Internet is filled with too many faceless shops and it's refreshing to see a vendor coming forth in a public forum to remedy an unfortunate situation rather than hiding behind emails to minimize the damage. If anything, I am now more comfortable buying from Schiit since I now know that should anything goes wrong I would be taken care.


----------



## Draygonn

^^"six minutes..."

After reading all the good reviews I've finally placed a Bifrost order. It'll be a while before it ships but should be a nice upgrade over my TiHD.


----------



## Kremer930

To Olor1n -   I agree that my posts are generally glowing about Schiit.  This positive view has been built from a combination of enjoyment of Schiit products as well as the personal interactions I have had with Jason.  They are ceratinly well earned and not blindly given.
   
  I must admit that soon after buying the Lyr I made my mind up that I was going to buy the statement rig.  I even bought a Bifrost in the interim as a time filler whilst waiting for the statement gear to hit the market.  I never expected to like the Bifrost or Lyr as much as I have enjoyed it and think that even when I purchase the statement gear that I will likely keep the entry rig.
   
  The main thing here though is the need for Olor1n to receive his working Schiit rig and I certainly wish him well in this regard.  Waiting is hard enough without having to go through additional pain in returning the item and so on.


----------



## caracara08

i feel anyone has a right to post their experience as long as sufficient attempt has been made by the buyer to find out whats going on. otherwise it could be perceived as trolling i supppose.  
   
   
  annnnyyyywayys.  
   
  maybe its just me, but i have a harder time finding differences between DACs than amps and of course headphones. i think the bifrost sounds better than my NOS muse dac.. i think. either way. its a nice unit. not sure if ill be going statement or not. happy for schiit that all their products have worked out so well.  keep up the good work.


----------



## Gauss1777

I put my order for a Bifrost. Now to wait!
   
  I'm looking for cables. What cable would you use to connect the Bifrost to a Bottlehead Crack + HD600? I'm also thinking in getting a Moon Audio Silver Dragon for the HD600. I wan't better bass response and attack with less veiled sound. I'm not looking for too much airness.


----------



## olor1n

Just an update on my situation. Have provided pics and Jason is as baffled as I am about the state of the Bifrost I received. Schiit are looking after me though and I get to listen to the one I have now until they have a suitable replacement available.


----------



## Argo Duck

Assuming Jason didn't personally nurse it right through to shiipping, I wonder if the one he inspected was not the one sent? A mixup further down the chain could explain all...
   
  Anyways, glad you like the sound so far olor1n.


----------



## olor1n

Thanks AD. I gave it an extended listen last night and the Bifrost passed the test on tracks that found the NFB-10SE wanting. I'm not hearing the thin sound some have mentioned prior to burn in, perhaps the inherent bass and warmth of the LCD-2 and HD650 alleviates that quality to some extent. Despite that, the bass quality is not on par with the 10SE at this stage. It is present but it has less body (particularly in the sub bass) and is not resolved as clearly as the Audio-GD. The impact and dynamics of rhythm instruments aren't as pronounced as a result.
   
  Overall though, it is transparent and there's a distinct sense of depth. I like how the high end accentuates certain details without exaggeration, and without etch or dryness. I really like what I'm hearing. And I don't even have my best tubes installed in the Lyr.


----------



## TubeDriver

Glad you got things resolved.  Unfortunately, you will have to suffer through two break-in periods.  I can confirm that the bass continues to get better through the ~150 hour period or so.  I still think I am hearing some improvements 3 weeks into ownership.


----------



## grokit

Quote:


gauss1777 said:


> I put my order for a Bifrost. Now to wait!
> 
> I'm looking for cables. What cable would you use to connect the Bifrost to a Bottlehead Crack + HD600? I'm also thinking in getting a Moon Audio Silver Dragon for the HD600. I wan't better bass response and attack with less veiled sound. I'm not looking for too much airness.


 

 Check this post.


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





olor1n said:


> Thanks AD. I gave it an extended listen last night and the Bifrost passed the test on tracks that found the NFB-10SE wanting. I'm not hearing the thin sound some have mentioned prior to burn in, perhaps the inherent bass and warmth of the LCD-2 and HD650 alleviates that quality to some extent. Despite that, the bass quality is not on par with the 10SE at this stage. It is present but it has less body (particularly in the sub bass) and is not resolved as clearly as the Audio-GD. The impact and dynamics of rhythm instruments aren't as pronounced as a result.
> 
> Overall though, it is transparent and there's a distinct sense of depth. I like how the high end accentuates certain details without exaggeration, and without etch or dryness. I really like what I'm hearing. And I don't even have my best tubes installed in the Lyr.


 

 I second your impressions using my HD800.  The treble in particular is as you say, unlike the 'neutral' treble of something like the Benchmark DAC1.  Nice that you notice the same using the LCD2 and HD650.


----------



## 45longcolt

With 300 hours on the Bifrost, it continues to be enjoyable. I had been calling it the Swiss DAC (neutral, punctual, detail-oriented and civil if hardly polite,) but now consider it more the Wikileaks DAC - revealing everything even when that's not the best idea.
   
  If it were a phono cartridge, I'd call it the classic moving coil - slightly tipped up in the treble. Of course that's not possible since as a modern digital device it is inherently perfect in all dimensions (insert stifled guffaw here.) But I think that impression springs from the detail and the Bifrost's refusal to "pad" the bass.
   
  Not that there's a lack of bass. Differentiating individual bass notes is much eaier than with my previous DAC (PS Audio DL III,) but the PS adds "warmth" that is often beguiling.
   
  In cables, I'd stay away from silver or anything that emphasizes the treble. For me, going from lower-priced Audioquest to Nordost brought more detail but also more high end, which many might consider excessive.
   
  Emphathy to olor1n, such trials afflict us all. But, hey, it builds character, right?
   
  Based on my experience with both Schiit products and the company, I'm planning on buying the statement pair.


----------



## Audio_newb

Don't mean to be down on the Schiit marketing strategy here as all of their products appear beautiful and well thought out, but I'm curious whether anyone here is waiting for the mid-level balanced dac?  There seem to be a lot of people (myself included) waiting with bated breath for the statement dac, but haven't heard anyone really craving the middle child. Poor middle children.  Having said that, I am of course also incessantly checking for any updated information morsels that Jason might let slip.  Oh, the update addiction.


----------



## drgajet

I'm up for the mid-level balanced gear.  Patiently waiting. As one head-fier commented.  "I might buy as there stuff as it comes out so some day I can say "I have all their Schiit."'.


----------



## Maxvla

Won't be long on the next round of Schiit. Looks like backorders are clearing up on Bifrost. The new stuff is right around the corner.


----------



## internethandle

I received and installed one of the replacement HiFi-Tuning "Supreme Black" ceramic fuses in my Bifrost. I'm still doing more critical listening before posting some impressions, but I will definitely say that the Bifrost now sounds even more... interesting.


----------



## olor1n

The Lyr is such a complementary match for the Bifrost. Have just rolled a pair of Cryoset 6N23P to replace the Bugle Boys I had in place when assessing the straight out of the box sound of the Bifrost. Same overall tonal qualities as before, but hello soundstage width and hello dynamic range!
   
  The treble isn't quite as extended, smooth and sparkly as with the Bugle Boys, sacrificing some perception of depth. There's a bit more grain and bite, though still not dry or fatiguing. However bass is less one note and is more prominent in the mix. The HD650 is quite lively in this configuration.
   
  Saving some Lorenz Stuttgarts and Amperex Orange Globes for when the Bifrost settles post burn in.


----------



## Shubar

May I ask what happened with the NFB-10SE? I remember seeing your post regarding your preference with the NFB-10SE over the Lyr. Correct me if i'm wrong.


----------



## olor1n

Yes, I slightly preferred the ss convenience of the NFB-10SE and its balanced output. It was more transparent than the Lyr and exerted better control of the low end, rendering it in higher resolution. I found it to be a really good match for the rev.2 LCD-2.
   
  It's downfall was the dac section, which I found to ultimately lack synergy with the HD650, my go to headphone. Certain recordings were dry and abrasive, making a headphone renowned for its smooth laid-back qualities fatiguing after a short time. Couldn't live with that flaw.


----------



## Laciel

Just placed my order, February can't come soon enough!


----------



## wkhanna

Order #1135 just placed.
  A birthday present to myself.
  What are the odds it gets here on 16 Feb?


----------



## Denosha

My order #993 (which was placed early Jan) still on backorder status... So, i think it might be some time?


----------



## wkhanna

from the Schiit web site Bifrost page as of this morning:
   
*STATUS: Backordered. Orders placed now will ship in early February.*


----------



## mmayer167

It's worth the wait!
   
  -M


----------



## Draygonn

#1107 here


----------



## olor1n

My setup is Macbook to Bifrost via Furutech Fomula 2 usb cable. I mainly use Fidelia, set to match the bit depth and sample rate of tracks on the fly. When I play compressed files via iTunes, I run it in tandem with BitPerfect, so no upsampling is applied.
   
  I tested the Integer Mode in BitPerfect and it played fine for a few tracks until playback became a static screech. Disabled Integer Mode (which I've had issues with in the past with other dacs) and relaunched the programs. Played fine for a while until the static screeching returned.
   
  Switched back to Fidelia not too bothered by the iTunes/BitPerfect "issue". Perfect playback for a few days until the static screech appeared randomly mid song. The audio file itself is not corrupt. Restarting the program reset the sound back to normal.
   
  Anyone else encountered this?


----------



## internethandle

I had a similar issue when I first received the Bifrost - I use a self-built desktop PC. I determined that it was the USB port I had the Bifrost plugged into was damaged or otherwise on the fritz. When I switched USB ports, the problem was remedied. I have since confirmed with another USB DAC that the USB port in question is faulty, however, so it doesn't seem to be the Bifrost itself causing the issue. 
   
  Anyway, worth a try, although given you're using a laptop, I'm unsure how many more ports you'd be left to work with (if any) - with my desktop I have upwards of 12 ports total.
  Quote: 





olor1n said:


> My setup is Macbook to Bifrost via Furutech Fomula 2 usb cable. I mainly use Fidelia, set to match the bit depth and sample rate of tracks on the fly. When I play compressed files via iTunes, I run it in tandem with BitPerfect, so no upsampling is applied.
> 
> I tested the Integer Mode in BitPerfect and it played fine for a few tracks until playback became a static screech. Disabled Integer Mode (which I've had issues with in the past with other dacs) and relaunched the programs. Played fine for a while until the static screeching returned.
> 
> ...


----------



## internethandle

I had a similar issue when I first received the Bifrost - I use a self-built desktop PC. After about half-way through a song, or some other indeterminate period of time, I would get a "WA-WA-WA"-like static noise that slowly broke up the song in playback into pure static. I determined that it was the USB port I had the Bifrost plugged into was damaged or otherwise on the fritz. When I switched USB ports, the problem was remedied completely. I have since confirmed with another older USB DAC that the USB port in question is faulty, however, so it doesn't seem to be my Bifrost itself causing the issue. 
   
  Anyway, worth a try, although given you're using a laptop, I'm unsure how many more ports you'd be left to work with (if any) - with my desktop I have upwards of 12 ports total.
  Quote: 





olor1n said:


> My setup is Macbook to Bifrost via Furutech Fomula 2 usb cable. I mainly use Fidelia, set to match the bit depth and sample rate of tracks on the fly. When I play compressed files via iTunes, I run it in tandem with BitPerfect, so no upsampling is applied.
> 
> I tested the Integer Mode in BitPerfect and it played fine for a few tracks until playback became a static screech. Disabled Integer Mode (which I've had issues with in the past with other dacs) and relaunched the programs. Played fine for a while until the static screeching returned.
> 
> ...


----------



## wberghofer

Quote: 





olor1n said:


> Anyone else encountered this?


 
   
  Yes, me. The very same symptoms you describe also happen when connecting my iMac via USB to my Schiit Bifrost DAC. I purchased a special USB galvanic isolator, which makes the problem even worse: With this galvanic isolator the time until the static screeching returned was much shorter than without this device. Trying another USB port didn’t help.
   
  Switched back to an optical Toslink connection. If I would have known this before I placed my order I could have saved the US$ 100.- for the Bifrost USB option.
   
  Werner.


----------



## Audio_newb

I can't say for sure if the issues are related, but just a note that it might not be the DAC at all.  Not sure if you guys are using Lion, but there seem to be some core audio issues in Lion with usb DACs.  I've been using a HRT Streamer II for some time now and was also having some strange issues.  In my case they seem to settle down if I switch tracks a few times and then don't reappear unless I restart.  The HRT people said they were aware of the issues and put the ball squarely in Apple's court.  Not that this makes the issue any better, but could mean a possible software update in the future does the trick.


----------



## wberghofer

Quote: 





audio_newb said:


> […] Not sure if you guys are using Lion […]


 
   
  I do, both on the iMac and the MacBook Pro. On both computers USB audio output to a Schiit Bifrost DAC is not useable for more than just a few minutes.
   
  Werner.


----------



## LilBuck

anyone used this with the asgard, and impressions?


----------



## olor1n

Quote: 





wberghofer said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


  Thanks for the info Werner. I'm not certain where the static stems from. With other dacs, I never had issue with the particular usb port I was using when the static appeared. I've switched ports and will see if I can replicate the problem.
   
  Btw, I'm still using Snow Leopard and suspect the Lion issue with usb (powered?) dacs may be unrelated.
   
  Have any non mac users encountered this problem?


----------



## caracara08

why does the bifrost click when im going through folders on my B drive which is where my music is but im not clicking within my music folder?


----------



## internethandle

Can you be more specific? Are you going through folders within a music program while playing music, or when not playing music when this occurs? Does it occur at random or correspond to mouse clicks at all?
   
  If you're using Windows (which is the only OS I'm familiar with), you should ensure the Bifrost is not the default sound outputting device and/or that you set Windows to have no sound effects that could pop up during playback. You can find more info about how to do so by Googling "The Well-Tempered Computer."
  
  Quote: 





caracara08 said:


> why does the bifrost click when im going through folders on my B drive which is where my music is but im not clicking within my music folder?


----------



## Laciel

*Advanced Bitperfect Clock Management at work, *It click when you switch to a track with different sample rate then the preview track, it's a small price to pay for un-compromised sample rate


----------



## christophrowley

Quote: 





laciel said:


> *Advanced Bitperfect Clock Management at work, *It click when you switch to a track with different sample rate then the preview track, it's a small price to pay for un-compromised sample rate


 


  I quite like it. Most mechanical sounds from gear are a plus in my book. Nothing like the shutter of a good SLR though.


----------



## Kremer930

I use USB on my MBP to the Bifrost. I have never had any screeching or issues even when playing 4 albums in a row. I use a silver USB cable and have the older OSX lion though. Sounds more likely to be a Mac issue than a Schiit problem. 
   
  On another front... I did the PureMusic update to 1.85v today and now can't get optical to connect. I worked perfectly before the update. Has anyone else had a simmilar problem?


----------



## mikenike

Quote: 





wkhanna said:


> from the Schiit web site Bifrost page as of this morning:
> 
> *STATUS: Backordered. Orders placed now will ship in early February.*


 


  Bifrost: Updated to mid-February now. I've been checking on the availability of Schiit products daily (sometimes hourly), and Valhalla is being pushed back to early February. If Valhalla doesn't ship in the middle of next week, I'm gonna cancel and get the Lyr instead.


----------



## HK_sends

I've been using the USB card in the Bifrost fed from my Toshiba laptop for quite a while and have had no issues with screeching noises.  I also use a Syflex Optical Cable from the Laptop's SPIDF out (I like to switch back and forth).  The clicks you hear from the Bifrost or normal and harmless.  One day, I hope to get one of the Audiophilleo's like Misterrogers has but right now I have absolutely no complaints with the setup...
   
Cheers!





  -HK sends


----------



## OzarkTom

A fantastic buy on the USB cable is a Virtue Audio USB Nirvana cable. I also have the Nordost Blue Heaven at $250, and the Virtue beats it at the $60 mark. The Virtue has improved every Dac I tried it on, including the Schiit Bifrost and the Eximus DP1.


----------



## HK_sends

I am getting phenomenal sound with this:
   
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00415AHFS/ref=oh_o00_s00_i00_details
   
  I tried one other quality cable (I don't recall the name), but settled on this and am quite happy.
   
  Cheers!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  -HK sends


----------



## sridhar3

Pangea, Audio Advisor's in-house brand, also has their USB cables on clearance.  You can get a 0.5m cable for $25.  I've owned their power cables in the past, and the manufacturing quality is excellent.
   
http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=PGUSBPC%20%20%205
   
  I'm currently using some Cardas USB cables that I picked up for well below MSRP.


----------



## olor1n

Quote: 





olor1n said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


  Tried another usb port and had no issue for about a day. Loaded up iTunes/BitPerfect and the first song degraded to static screeching halfway through. Went back to Fidelia again and no issue for a while until this afternoon. There doesn't seem a set amount of time before the sq degrades and I haven't identified how to replicate the issue. I'll test the optical input next.
   
  edit: Optical is nice! Not as warm as the usb input (which I usually prefer), but it sounds clearer, more extended in the top end. The overall presentation is noticeably more coherent than usb, with a better sense of depth and imaging. Anticipating some glare and edginess depending on track, but have yet to encounter it.


----------



## Dougeefresh

I am having a strange issue with Bifrost.
  I am running Bifrost using Mac Pro's optical out and whenever I delete, copy, or move files Bifrost makes a clicking noise. This happens every single time I manipulate a file. I am not playing any music (no players running) and it happens even after a fresh reboot.
  Can anyone with an optical link confirm this?


----------



## wberghofer

Quote:


dougeefresh said:


> Can anyone with an optical link confirm this?


 
   
  Yes, I can confirm this. This happens because certain alarm and system event sounds also will be routed via the optical link to the DAC. Don't worry, this will cause no harm or damage.
   
  Werner.


----------



## xxhaxx

Quote: 





dougeefresh said:


> I am having a strange issue with Bifrost.
> I am running Bifrost using Mac Pro's optical out and whenever I delete, copy, or move files Bifrost makes a clicking noise. This happens every single time I manipulate a file. I am not playing any music (no players running) and it happens even after a fresh reboot.
> Can anyone with an optical link confirm this?


 

 Your laptop is engaging and disengaging the optical connection which causes the clicking sound.


----------



## Dougeefresh

Quote: 





wberghofer said:


> Quote:
> 
> Yes, I can confirm this. This happens because certain alarm and system event sounds also will be routed via the optical link to the DAC. Don't worry, this will cause no harm or damage.
> 
> Werner.


 

 Ah, this makes sense.
  Thanks!


----------



## LilBuck

Does anyone have the bifrost stacked with a shiit amp? I saw some pics in the show us your station thread, but that was more searching for shiit in particular than seemed efficient. I just wanted to know how well they stacked up and if it causes any problems with heat. Anyone have a decent solution for a little shelf that holds their amp + bifrost?


----------



## ultrarider

@LilBuck
  I'm thinking about knocking together a shelf for my BiFrost/Asgard combo. Provided, of course, that I like the Bifrost, still waiting on the backorder to ship. Hopefully in the next few weeks.


----------



## Dougeefresh

I have them stacked and although they do get quite hot, I was told that's it's fine.
  I would put the amp on top of Bifrost though since an amp generates more heat. I am using the rubber feet that came with the units but if you are concerned I've seen people using these: http://www.amazon.com/Dayton-ISO-4SN-Satin-Nickel-Isolation/dp/B0030BQBU4/ref=sr_1_36?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1327953305&sr=1-36


----------



## Dougeefresh

Quote: 





wberghofer said:


> Quote:
> 
> Yes, I can confirm this. This happens because certain alarm and system event sounds also will be routed via the optical link to the DAC. Don't worry, this will cause no harm or damage.
> 
> Werner.


 

  
  FYI, I changed the output of System sound to something other than Digital Out and Bifrost no longer clicks except when I am playing music.


----------



## Laciel

Quote: 





lilbuck said:


> Does anyone have the bifrost stacked with a shiit amp? I saw some pics in the show us your station thread, but that was more searching for shiit in particular than seemed efficient. I just wanted to know how well they stacked up and if it causes any problems with heat. Anyone have a decent solution for a little shelf that holds their amp + bifrost?


 


   
  I would get some isolation cones for that


----------



## HK_sends

Quote: 





lilbuck said:


> Does anyone have the bifrost stacked with a shiit amp? I saw some pics in the show us your station thread, but that was more searching for shiit in particular than seemed efficient. I just wanted to know how well they stacked up and if it causes any problems with heat. Anyone have a decent solution for a little shelf that holds their amp + bifrost?


 
  You mean like this?
   

   
  Nope, no problem with heat at all, but you definitely want the Bifrost below your amp (especially an Asgard).
   
  Cheers!
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  -HK sends


----------



## wberghofer

lilbuck said:


> Does anyone have the bifrost stacked with a shiit amp? […]


 
   
  Yes. Here’s the Valhalla/Bifrost combination used on my desk:
   

   
  And here’s the second combination next to a comfortable chair:
   

   
  On my desk the amplifier and the DAC are separated, on my headphone listening place the amplifier is stacked directly on top of the DAC. According to Schiit’s Jason Stoddard the temperature should cause no harm, as long as the amplifier is placed on top of the DAC.
   
  Werner.


----------



## LilBuck

Yes those pictures are perfect for visualizing what I could make my space look like. I figured the stacking wouldn't be an issue, but had read in some review that they get hot, so just wanted to make sure people had good results. Still haven't pulled the trigger on a Shiit combo, but I am leaning that direction whenever I figure out what headphones I want for my home setup.


----------



## Hero Kid

Quote: 





lilbuck said:


> I figured the stacking wouldn't be an issue, but had read in some review that they get hot, so just wanted to make sure people had good results.


 
   
  Somewhere buried in the first post is Jason saying it is OK to stack them, with the amp on top. So yeah, it should be fine.


----------



## pseudohippy

Quote: 





lilbuck said:


> Yes those pictures are perfect for visualizing what I could make my space look like. I figured the stacking wouldn't be an issue, but had read in some review that they get hot, so just wanted to make sure people had good results. Still haven't pulled the trigger on a Shiit combo, but I am leaning that direction whenever I figure out what headphones I want for my home setup.


 


  Did you not make it to the meet we had earlier this month? I had mine setup side by side at the meet though. I used to stack mine at home but now I go side by side just because the cabinet was kinda tight. Supposedly the design is that the case is the heat sink pulling the heat from the inside, therefore the case would be expected to get hot. They do get hot but not burn yourself hot. The tubes maybe but not the case. Another fella at the meet had a nice little rack for them perfect for desk use.
   
  This isnt mine but someone at the Seattle Meet.
   

   
  EDIT, oops, I forgot, that is actually an Lyr and a Asgard. My memory is coming back. Plenty of free beer that day lol.
   
  I did that have bifrost/Lyr though, here it was


----------



## grokit

Quote:


dougeefresh said:


> FYI, I changed the output of System sound to something other than Digital Out and Bifrost no longer clicks except when I am playing music.


 
   
   
  Yes I was going to suggest that you set the Sound Effects part of Sound Preferences to internal speakers, that will keep all of the system sounds away from the DAC. But you seem to have figured it out


----------



## LilBuck

Quote: 





pseudohippy said:


> Did you not make it to the meet we had earlier this month? I had mine setup side by side at the meet though. I used to stack mine at home but now I go side by side just because the cabinet was kinda tight. Supposedly the design is that the case is the heat sink pulling the heat from the inside, therefore the case would be expected to get hot. They do get hot but not burn yourself hot. The tubes maybe but not the case. Another fella at the meet had a nice little rack for them perfect for desk use.
> 
> This isnt mine but someone at the Seattle Meet.
> 
> ...


 


  I actually was there, and knew I had seen some Shiit gear, but at the time I wasn't yet in the mindframe of knowing what I wanted to get next so I didn't take as much notice as I had wanted to of what setups were there. The pictures help with that, so thanks!


----------



## Uncle00Jesse

Would there be any degradation of sound by having the bifrost being fed from a squeezebox touch via coaxial vs. straight from the pc via usb?


----------



## kchau

Quote: 





uncle00jesse said:


> Would there be any degradation of sound by having the bifrost being fed from a squeezebox touch via coaxial vs. straight from the pc via usb?


 

  
  i think what you should be asking is if the squeezebox is bitperfect.
   
  if yes, then no.


----------



## Maxvla

Looking at some of the processing gear Mike's worked on at Theta in the past (at the dawn of digital), I'm really anticipating the next level. Bifrost is such a good product. Price point, features, build quality. It's all there. Last night I tried to go to bed but the music kept me planted in my chair.. 3 hours later I finally managed to hit the sack saying 'enough is enough!'.

Only thing I need now is a transport that will last longer than a few months before breaking. I've had such bad luck with CD players that I've transitioned completely to computer to get away from the frustration. I guess it's partly my fault for buying less expensive units, but my current Shanling has problems and it was $300, not exactly bargain bin cheap. I prefer the sound from CD source because computer still lets through some slight noise that is easily detectable with my sensitive IEMs.


----------



## Laciel

I searched the forum and seems like no have the WA3 + bifrost combination lol, looks like i will be the first, *finger crossing*


----------



## torcik

Six Moons reviews the Bifrost
   
  http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/schiit2/1.html


----------



## Maxvla

6 moons approved, for whatever that's worth.


----------



## Argo Duck

To my surprise I agreed with most of what SE described about the sound. More surprisingly, I only had to re-read some sentences 2-3 times to understand them. There were still some I gave up trying to decode though.


----------



## sampson_smith

I agree. Despite my initial urge to read most of them, many Six Moons articles are too purple to be taken seriously. They could say the same thing with half of the words if they were half-decent writers first and reputable audio critics second. I have a feeling that without the big spread of jargon and nothing useful in particular, they would lack the space to insert so many obtrusive ads. The advertising breaks up the flow of their limited content about as badly as their flowery prose. Glad that they think the Bifrost is an excellent value, though. With this, I completely agree!


----------



## duetta

So, am I correct (having followed this thread now for a couple of months) that there are no Linux USB drivers for the Bifrost - and no plans for them?  I'm putting together a music machine and would like to dispense with the need for a Windows license.


----------



## Defiant00

Quote: 





duetta said:


> So, am I correct (having followed this thread now for a couple of months) that there are no Linux USB drivers for the Bifrost - and no plans for them?  I'm putting together a music machine and would like to dispense with the need for a Windows license.


 


  That's correct, but as long as your distro supports USB Audio 2.0 you don't need any extra drivers.


----------



## duetta

Good to know.  Thanks for that update.


----------



## judmarc

Quote: 





maxvla said:


> Looking at some of the processing gear Mike's worked on at Theta in the past (at the dawn of digital), I'm really anticipating the next level. Bifrost is such a good product. Price point, features, build quality. It's all there. Last night I tried to go to bed but the music kept me planted in my chair.. 3 hours later I finally managed to hit the sack saying 'enough is enough!'.
> Only thing I need now is a transport that will last longer than a few months before breaking. I've had such bad luck with CD players that I've transitioned completely to computer to get away from the frustration. I guess it's partly my fault for buying less expensive units, but my current Shanling has problems and it was $300, not exactly bargain bin cheap. I prefer the sound from CD source because computer still lets through some slight noise that is easily detectable with my sensitive IEMs.


 


 Re looking forward to the next level, yup, me too.  Re staying up too late listening to music, yup, me too.  Hey - OKC!  Lived there 7 years, still have many close friends from that time.
   
  Re noise from computer: A good sound card (not terribly expensive, see e.g. EMI Juli@) with an optical cable, or a good inexpensive USB cable without having to buy a sound card (e.g. Audioquest Forest, about $35 for .6 meter length) might help.


----------



## judmarc

Quote: 





uncle00jesse said:


> Would there be any degradation of sound by having the bifrost being fed from a squeezebox touch via coaxial vs. straight from the pc via usb?


 


 I've heard generally good things about the Touch as a digital source.  Might be more jitter from Touch through coax than using Bifrost's async USB input.  Touch I believe is limited to 24/96, so if you were planning on listening to 24/192 material you'd need the PC for that.


----------



## Uncle00Jesse

Quote: 





judmarc said:


> I've heard generally good things about the Touch as a digital source.  Might be more jitter from Touch through coax than using Bifrost's async USB input.  Touch I believe is limited to 24/96, so if you were planning on listening to 24/192 material you'd need the PC for that.


 

 Thanks for the reply. My bifrost is waiting for me at the front door right now. BTW if anyone wants a bifrost and doesnt want to wait through schiit backorders, keep checking amazon. there were 10 in stock for the past few days. i ordered on tuesday morning... much better than waiting 
   
  Anyway, I just want to know if my $350 was well spent and I'll hear a difference. Maybe I should have gotten the USB... I'm not very technical, nor would i know the difference between 24/96 and 24/192 but I'm looking for a clear upgrade (hopefully). Another question - is the DAC pidgeon-holed by the amp its feeding to? For instance I have a cheap ef2a which I like a lot, but since its not top of the line - will feeding the bifrost to it not make a world of difference? Do you need better and better amps to get the most out of the DAC?


----------



## Laciel

Quote: 





uncle00jesse said:


> Thanks for the reply. My bifrost is waiting for me at the front door right now. BTW if anyone wants a bifrost and doesnt want to wait through schiit backorders, keep checking amazon. there were 10 in stock for the past few days. i ordered on tuesday morning... much better than waiting
> 
> Anyway, I just want to know if my $350 was well spent and I'll hear a difference. Maybe I should have gotten the USB... I'm not very technical, nor would i know the difference between 24/96 and 24/192 but I'm looking for a clear upgrade (hopefully). Another question - is the DAC pidgeon-holed by the amp its feeding to? For instance I have a cheap ef2a which I like a lot, but since its not top of the line - will feeding the bifrost to it not make a world of difference? Do you need better and better amps to get the most out of the DAC?


 


  Thanks, only 2 left in amazon guys!


----------



## TubeDriver

Has anyone run 24/88.2 into the Bifrost successfully with Toslink?  I can run 44/48/96 but get a error message in JRiver MC 17 when trying to send 24/88.


----------



## TubeDriver

Never mind, it was a Realtek driver limitation.  I removed the Realtek driver and used the standard Windows driver and can play 24/88 without any problems.


----------



## Makataka

I am using a laptop running Windows 7 SP1 64-bit home. Are there any known issues with the bifrost on this OS? I am currently using the UDAC-2 via USB which works fine but wanted to check if there were any concerns using the Bifrost?

Also, I know there have been some posts on this already but can anyone give experience in upgrading from the Nuforce to the Schiit?


----------



## Uncle00Jesse




----------



## Hero Kid

For those of you based in Australia not yet aware i-Enjoy now has stock of the Bifrost.
  Prices for the non-USB model is $450 and with USB it is $550.
   
  From what I can gather it is first in best served so if you have been waiting don't dally!


----------



## Llloyd

Quote: 





tubedriver said:


> Has anyone run 24/88.2 into the Bifrost successfully with Toslink?  I can run 44/48/96 but get a error message in JRiver MC 17 when trying to send 24/88.


 


  If you're using a PC, you should try using WASAPI out.  88.2 works fine for me


----------



## TubeDriver

I am using windows 7 with jriver MC 17, WASAPI event.
   
  I have been listening to jriver up sampling 16/44 to 24/88.   Sounds nice, I might prefer this to non up sampled redbook.


----------



## mikiphile

Quote: 





sling5s said:


> Looks nice stacked, especially next to the iMac...it all matches.


 

  
  I cannot believe you said that, especially after reading _happiness is celebrating an object of ultimate worth_ in the bottom.
   
  Since I completely agree with that statement, how can you say that it looks nice to the iMac. That object has no value whatsoever compared to the Schiit or Audeze


----------



## wberghofer

> Looks nice stacked, especially next to the iMac...it all matches.


 
   
  Yes, it does.
   

   
  Werner.


----------



## ninjikiran

I use the ESI Julia's coax output through breakout cable to the BiFrost.


----------



## TubeDriver

This might be heresy but I think I prefer up sampling 16/44 to 24/88 in jrivers over just standard 16/44 into my Bifrost.


----------



## olor1n

Messing with Fidelia/iZotope Resampler to upsample my 44.1 flacs to 88.2. Seems promising with the Bifrost, with notably more focused imaging and anchored front and centre position. Need to live with it for while then switch back to determine any real benefits.
   
  edit: 88.2 is less enveloping and width of soundstage is narrower, giving the impression of better focus. Airiness and detail (particularly vocal definition) are subdued or lost in the upsample. Back to native sample rate.


----------



## TubeDriver

Quote: 





olor1n said:


> Messing with Fidelia/iZotope Resampler to upsample my 44.1 flacs to 88.2. Seems promising with the Bifrost, with notably more focused imaging and anchored front and centre position. Need to live with it for while then switch back to determine any real benefits.
> 
> edit: 88.2 is less enveloping and width of soundstage is narrower, giving the impression of better focus. Airiness and detail (particularly vocal definition) are subdued or lost in the upsample. Back to native sample rate.


 

 It appears to be recording dependent.  In general, poor recordings seem to benefit from upsampling while better recordings sound better at their native rate.  I just left my setup at native rate ( no upsampling) but might switch if listening to something poorly recorded.


----------



## wkhanna

Quote: 





wkhanna said:


> from the Schiit web site Bifrost page as of this morning:
> 
> *STATUS: Backordered. Orders placed now will ship in early February.*


 
   
  Quote: 





mikenike said:


> Bifrost: Updated to mid-February now. I've been checking on the availability of Schiit products daily (sometimes hourly), and Valhalla is being pushed back to early February. If Valhalla doesn't ship in the middle of next week, I'm gonna cancel and get the Lyr instead.


 


  As of 6 Feb 11:00 AM EST at the  Schitt web site:
*STATUS: We will begin shipping backorders this week (2/5) and will have backorders cleared in 1-1.5 weeks. Orders placed now will ship after backorders are cleared.*


----------



## mikenike

Quote: 





wkhanna said:


> As of 6 Feb 11:00 AM EST at the  Schitt web site:
> *STATUS: We will begin shipping backorders this week (2/5) and will have backorders cleared in 1-1.5 weeks. Orders placed now will ship after backorders are cleared.*


 


  That's great! I couldn't wait for the Valhalla, so I got the Lyr. Been waiting for a week (not Schiit's fault, but Fedex's), but it should be here tomorrow. I'm thinking of getting the Bifrost in April or May.


----------



## Denosha

They had to reissue me a new paypal invoice as the previous one had expired (yeah, it's been that long) but it seems my Bifrost will finally be shipping out. Can't wait!


----------



## ultrarider

Quote: 





denosha said:


> They had to reissue me a new paypal invoice as the previous one had expired (yeah, it's been that long) but it seems my Bifrost will finally be shipping out. Can't wait!


 


  Out of curiosity, when did you order yours?


----------



## TubeDriver

You can get a new Bifrost on Amazon next day if you really can't wait.


----------



## grokit

Quote:


tubedriver said:


> You can get a new Bifrost on Amazon next day if you really can't wait.


 
   
  Currently unavailable.
  We don't know when or if this item will be back in stock.
   
  http://www.amazon.com/SCHIIT-BIFROST-Upgradable-32-bit-Conversion/dp/B006YWRW36


----------



## TubeDriver

Quote: 





grokit said:


> Quote:
> 
> Currently unavailable.
> We don't know when or if this item will be back in stock.
> ...


 


  Try this one.  They say they have 5 in stock.  The also have a 30 day return period.
   
   
  http://www.amazon.com/Schiit-Audio-Bifrost-Upgradable-BITPERFECT/dp/B0074SG3RK/ref=sr_1_2?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1328657386&sr=1-2


----------



## Denosha

Quote: 





ultrarider said:


> Out of curiosity, when did you order yours?


 

  
  8 Jan 2012.


----------



## Laciel

Just got mine, i immediately notice improvement vs my halo claro analog out put(now is halo claro optical--->bifrost--->wa3--> hd650). the vocals are in place, before it was too forward for me, and it doesn't sound too bright anymore, i can now enjoy those songs that were too harsh or vocally underwhelming before, love it!


----------



## Posam

So I would be interested in ordering one of these however I don't want to spend the $100 on the USB. My laptop does not have a SPDIF or optical anything all I have are typical USB ports, and eSATA and an HDMI plus the obvious 3.5mm headphones jack. How would I connect the Bifrost to any of those via a converter (under $50)?


----------



## xxhaxx

The cheapest USB to Coaxial converter that I can think of is the Fiio E10 for $80
  Maybe somebody else can chime in


----------



## Posam

Quote: 





xxhaxx said:


> The cheapest USB to Coaxial converter that I can think of is the Fiio E10 for $80
> Maybe somebody else can chime in


 


  I assume there's no such thing as a 3.5mm to toslink adapter type of object or usb to toslink?


----------



## mikenike

Quote: 





posam said:


> So I would be interested in ordering one of these however I don't want to spend the $100 on the USB. My laptop does not have a SPDIF or optical anything all I have are typical USB ports, and eSATA and an HDMI plus the obvious 3.5mm headphones jack. How would I connect the Bifrost to any of those via a converter (under $50)?


 


  Many of the new laptops (and I assume yours was purchased within the last four or five years since you have HDMI) have optical through the 3.5mm headphone jack. Test it out with an optical to 3.5mm converter head. If red light shines through, you've got optical.
   
  This is what one of those converters look like: 

  If you don't have one of these, you can probably get them really cheap online or barring that, buy an optical cable at Wal-Mart that has these (make sure to read the package to be sure it has these). I bought a Phillips cable for 16 bucks at Wally World and it came with these converters (one for each end). Make sure you have music directed to the optical output; otherwise, no red light will show.


----------



## xxhaxx

What is your laptop model?


----------



## Posam

Quote: 





xxhaxx said:


> What is your laptop model?


 


  It's a Samsung R580 and i'm 90% certain that it doesn't have an optical in the headphone jack.


----------



## mikenike

Quote: 





posam said:


> It's a Samsung R580 and i'm 90% certain that it doesn't have an optical in the headphone jack.


 


  Yeah, R580 doesn't have it. Did a little snooping around the net and found this: http://forum.notebookreview.com/samsung/507611-new-samsung-r580-touch-red-notebook-2.html
   
  One of the users in that forum said he/she talked to Samsung's support, who replied there isn't a built-in optical in the headphone jack.
   
  Which I find weird because the R580 is newer than the Gateway I have, which has optical output built into the headphone jack.
   
  There are some Toslink to USB, but I don't have any experiences with them.


----------



## Posam

Quote: 





mikenike said:


> Yeah, R580 doesn't have it. Did a little snooping around the net and found this: http://forum.notebookreview.com/samsung/507611-new-samsung-r580-touch-red-notebook-2.html
> 
> One of the users in that forum said he/she talked to Samsung's support, who replied there isn't a built-in optical in the headphone jack.
> 
> ...


 

  
  Thats what I saw when I checked. It has blue ray but not true 1080p (only 720p) and other things like that that just are half there. Would be  easier to dish out the $100 more for the USB which I really would rather not if I don't need to.


----------



## mikenike

Quote: 





posam said:


> Thats what I saw when I checked. It has blue ray but not true 1080p (only 720p) and other things like that that just are half there. Would be  easier to dish out the $100 more for the USB which I really would rather not if I don't need to.


 

 You could connect it the old-fashioned way through the headphones and splitting that signal with an RCA, but that would defeat the purpose of getting the Bifrost. USB might be the only way to go--IF you are dead-set on getting the Bifrost and your only form of listening is through your laptop. I would say explore the Toslink-USB option carefully because to me, it seems there would be so much that could mess up in the USB data to Toslink conversion; or find a cheaper USB DAC.


----------



## Denosha

I understand that on Windows machines, you'll need drivers for the Bifrost? Is it me or have they taken down the download link on their website? I can't find them. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  My order status on their website is still "Backorder" though. 
   
  Edit: Just received the notification that my Bifrost has shipped out! Can't wait!


----------



## xxhaxx

http://schiit.com/drivers/
  Link to the drivers


----------



## Bynming

Never mind, my bad


----------



## wkhanna

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *Denosha* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Edit: Just received the notification that my Bifrost has shipped out! Can't wait!


 


  
That’s great news!
What was your order number?


----------



## Denosha

Quote: 





wkhanna said:


> That’s great news!
> What was your order number?


 


  #993


----------



## wkhanna

Ouch!
  I'm #1135
  Patiance, Patiance.


----------



## Draygonn

wkhanna said:


> Ouch!
> I'm #1135
> Patiance, Patiance.




I'm 1107

Time to grab a Snickers


----------



## powerpopper

1077 here. Guess I should have at least half a Snickers.


----------



## ultrarider

Quote: 





powerpopper said:


> 1077 here. Guess I should have at least half a Snickers.


 

 1099. I'll take the other half if you're not going to eat it.


----------



## Laciel

LOL at the battery labeled "don't not eat"


----------



## Raptor34

Urgh, I'm #1186.  I have quite a wait.  Oh well, my Valhalla just died on me so I guess I won't be needing the Bifrost until it gets fixed.   Sorry, I shouldn't have mentioned the Valhalla but I'm so disappointed I just had to share  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  Quote: 





wkhanna said:


> Ouch!
> I'm #1135
> Patiance, Patiance.


----------



## Kremer930

Was it just tubes that died or something else?


----------



## Raptor34

I haven't the slightest idea.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





     I got a RA  number from Jason today, on the weekend no less (blink) so I don't think my down time will be to long.  Incredibly good customer support!  Sorry, didn't mean to hijack this thread.   Can't wait for my Bifrost to arrive. 
  Quote: 





kremer930 said:


> Was it just tubes that died or something else?


----------



## Maxvla

Yeah, Jason doesn't mess around when it comes to service. Schiit is a model of how customer support should be done.


----------



## shaunybaby

I keep on reading how good all of you are finding your Bifrost,s to be and i must say i am coming rather close to cracking and just buying it.
   
  I was originally hoping to hold out till the middle class comes out but i,m finding it hard to do such.


----------



## Maxvla

The balanced DAC is right around the corner, literally, but the Bifrost really won't disappoint, and I imagine there won't be significant sonic differences between the two models except the ability to use it in a balanced system, which inherently can improve quality slightly, though you have to have the full chain to do that (balanced amp, balanced headphones). If you don't have balanced amp or phones or both I'd say Bifrost is just as good as the balanced DAC. Perhaps Jason can correct me if I'm wrong. The pricing structure we were given as estimates had the balanced DAC around $600-700. This is enough increase over the Bifrost to pay for things like extra XLR outputs, extra electronics to handle balanced signals, but not a lot more.

The statement unit which will also be balanced will be where the performance will increase (at least that is the hope). This unit is supposed to be around $900-1000 and that increase gives money to pay for things like improved power, different processing (more elaborate, perhaps?) setups, higher quality wiring, bigger nicer casing, etc.


----------



## shaunybaby

That is also another problem I'm not sure weather I should just hold out for the top tier and call it a day, I know that Schiit is a good company and from owning a Lyr i know that the stuff they make is top quality, if there going to pull out all the stops to make the top tier equipment I think its going to be great stuff but its also the problem of holding out that long and saving the money to buy it.


----------



## Maxvla

It seems like the statement stuff is still a bit off, maybe 3-6 months. I'd say a Bifrost ($350-450) in the mean time is a safe bet. People are still clamoring for them, and a $1000 statement dac won't be an immediate upgrade for most people considering a dac from Schiit. You should be able to get most of your money back but also enjoy the improved sound during that time. Think of it as a rental


----------



## wkhanna

[size=medium]That is exactly my philosophy. I am waiting on my Bifrost now and putting a little aside each pay to fund the Statement when it becomes available. When that day does come, the Bifrost goes up to ‘for sale’ to help offset the Statement purchase. Whatever the ‘hit’ is I take on the Bifrost, I see it as reasonable in order to have good DAC now, and a great DAC later.[/size]


----------



## wkhanna

Quote: 





raptor34 said:


> .......I got a RA  number from Jason today, on the weekend no less...........


 


  
That is just some plain 'Sick Schiit'.
Now I'm waiting for some one to tell us Jason came by their house with a replacement!
Schiit is setting a standard that has never before existed.


----------



## shaunybaby

Quote: 





maxvla said:


> It seems like the statement stuff is still a bit off, maybe 3-6 months. I'd say a Bifrost ($350-450) in the mean time is a safe bet. People are still clamoring for them, and a $1000 statement dac won't be an immediate upgrade for most people considering a dac from Schiit. You should be able to get most of your money back but also enjoy the improved sound during that time. Think of it as a rental


 


  Hrmmm a rental... nice way to think of it, damn I'm now thinking this is a good idea and don,t get me wrong it is but I think that my headphone is the bottleneck of my set up at the moment, I really want a lcd-2.


----------



## olor1n

^ Are you referring to the HD650? The Bifrost's signature is a damn good match for the HD650. Roll tubes in the Lyr to fine tune to your preference and you have a killer setup.


----------



## IEMCrazy

Quote: 





shaunybaby said:


> Hrmmm a rental... nice way to think of it, damn I'm now thinking this is a good idea and don,t get me wrong it is but I think that my headphone is the bottleneck of my set up at the moment, I really want a lcd-2.


 


  Seriously?  Lyr + HD650 + Bifrost = Upgrade-itis cured, for me. It just keeps getting  better.  Everything I thought I didn't like about my HD650 turned out to be things I didn't like about how my hardware chain was feeding them. 
   
  Not that I'd reject free LCD-2's mind you, and not that they don't have more detail than 650...but it's truly diminishing returns at that point.  If you're not A/B-ing the difference most people won't miss what the LCD-2 offers. Adding Lyr opened and tightened up the cans dramatically.  Adding Bifrost smoothed the rough edges out and added all the detail and separation in.  It's a heck of a setup. 
   
  Also, be sure to warm up those tubes...there's a major sonic change once the Lyr tubes are running hot.  I've been listening to my gear a lot since I got Lyr.  I never noticed a difference over a long period of listening before I added Bifrost.   Apparently my old DAC was resolving only as well as cold tubes and the transition wasn't obvious.  After adding Bifrost I found I was listening more and more and more and couldn't put it down.  And I thought sound was better in the second player software I used than the first.  Until I A/B-d it and it showed no difference.  I suspected, then tested an proved, that after an hour or two, the tubes improve a lot.  With cool tubes, I found all sorts of faults with HD650 that made me lean toward upgrading....too much bass bloom, rolled off highs, etc.  The usual complaints.  All that gets resolved once the tubes are at full temp.  I should ask Jason his take on it...
   
  I wouldn't mind ADDING something to compliment my HD650 in the neutral-bright range, but I don't see much need for upgrading from 650 now, at least until HD800 or LCD2 comes down in price in a decade...
   
  Obviously, if you don't like HD650's sound signature, it's a different story...but then considering LCD2 would be a bad direction to go since it's a similar signature.


----------



## 45longcolt

To Shaunybaby - I wouldn't overemphasize balanced, based on my (admittedly limited) experience with both phones and amps. I have found that a great traditional amp will be more enjoyable than a blanced amp that doesn't fit your needs as well. In other words, balanced can be done well or not-so, and is only part of the picture.
   
  Based on that, and the enjoyment I've had from my Bifrost/Lyr/LCD-2 system, I'd say go for the Bifrost unless you have everything else balanced.
   
  Must confess, I'm saving for the Schiit statement pair, and I am guessing that the top DAC will be well over $1K as will the amp (Just my supposition, please note, no inside info.) So there's the monetary angle to consider. And I suppose I will also have to buy a new pair of LCD-3s and the proper balanced cable, not to mention a disc player that outputs in balanced. Oh well, if I must....
   
  And it's too bad I can't go shopping in Japan - Snickers bars don't come with batteries at my local grocery store.


----------



## shaunybaby

Quote: 





olor1n said:


> ^ Are you referring to the HD650? The Bifrost's signature is a damn good match for the HD650. Roll tubes in the Lyr to fine tune to your preference and you have a killer setup.


 

 Hello olor1n, yes I'm referring to the 650, thanks for the advice of tube rolling I've been looking at doing it for some time and from what people are saying the Lyr truly is a great amp with the right tubes, so it is something to look into more closely.
   


  Quote: 





iemcrazy said:


> Seriously?  Lyr + HD650 + Bifrost = Upgrade-itis cured, for me. It just keeps getting  better.  Everything I thought I didn't like about my HD650 turned out to be things I didn't like about how my hardware chain was feeding them.
> 
> Not that I'd reject free LCD-2's mind you, and not that they don't have more detail than 650...but it's truly diminishing returns at that point.  If you're not A/B-ing the difference most people won't miss what the LCD-2 offers. Adding Lyr opened and tightened up the cans dramatically.  Adding Bifrost smoothed the rough edges out and added all the detail and separation in.  It's a heck of a setup.
> 
> ...


 

 hello IEMCrazy, yes I do find that the sound of the Lyr gets much better after it reaches its full temperature, your opinion seems to match up really well with what everyone is saying, that is that the Lyr and Bifrost is just a great combo and matches really well with the 650, I just find that the 650s can be a bit too laid back some times for my liking but I have been doing a lot of low level listening of late which doesn,t really catch the 650s at there best.
   
   
  Quote: 





45longcolt said:


> To Shaunybaby - I wouldn't overemphasize balanced, based on my (admittedly limited) experience with both phones and amps. I have found that a great traditional amp will be more enjoyable than a blanced amp that doesn't fit your needs as well. In other words, balanced can be done well or not-so, and is only part of the picture.
> 
> Based on that, and the enjoyment I've had from my Bifrost/Lyr/LCD-2 system, I'd say go for the Bifrost unless you have everything else balanced.
> 
> ...


 

 hello 45longcolt, after my last post I went on a scout for what people thought about balanced set ups and how it did versus single ended set ups and from what I found nobody could really put a finger on what was better the balanced or the single ended set up, so I'm not really sold on the thought of balanced after what I have found.
   
  Thanks guys for responding quickly and with great judgement on this problem of mine, I must say that after what you have said its looks like a Bifrost is soon on its way to my door


----------



## sinae

wberghofer said:


> Yes, me. The very same symptoms you describe also happen when connecting my iMac via USB to my Schiit Bifrost DAC. I purchased a special USB galvanic isolator, which makes the problem even worse: With this galvanic isolator the time until the static screeching returned was much shorter than without this device. Trying another USB port didn’t help.
> 
> Switched back to an optical Toslink connection. If I would have known this before I placed my order I could have saved the US$ 100.- for the Bifrost USB option.
> 
> Werner.




Is this true, some usb power noise with the bifrost? What, can't believe this, in these day and age, a good company would offer dacs without galvanic isolation build in and tested.. 

So what happen now, will I have usb noise with the bifrost.. if yes, i'll remove the usb option from my order..

We all want and need pitch black background is this so hard to isolate noise? 

bah, I think i'll keep the usb anyway and try it out


----------



## dwk

I guess I need to give a tip of the hat to the person/people up-thread who talked about vendors having some stock. I ordered a non-USB version from Audio Advisors on the 9th of Feb, and am currently listening. I guess I feel a bit of a twinge of guilt at jumping the queue, but not enough to impair my enjoyment.
   
  I find it interesting that the discussion above is saying that Bifrost/Lyr/HD650 makes a great pairing, since I'm listening to Bifrost/Lyr/K701 and think it's a great combo. Is it possible that a single dac/amp combo can be 'ideal' for 2 phones as disparate as the HD650 and K701?  Maybe it's just an indication that the combo comes out to fairly neutral and lets each reveal it's character. Or something.


----------



## Misterrogers

Jason has stated a number of times that Bifrost is galvanically isolated. The real 'kicker' with USB, is the HUGE variance of USB implementation, electrical noise, number of other USB devices on a bus (you can be plugged directly into a single USB port and the motherboard can be sharing that USB bus with other devices). One user can plug in and have a clean, quiet experience. Another can plug in and get all sorts of noise. Add to that, the effect on your USB bus timing/noise when various other applications are ran.
   
  In my experience, it's a very difficult thing for a USB device to eliminate all possible USB related issues. To date, I've yet to see a USB audio device that always worked, never dropped out, zero noise, etc. YMV, but that's been my reality with USB and the audio software that uses it.
  
  Quote: 





sinae said:


> Is this true, some usb power noise with the bifrost? What, can't believe this, in these day and age, a good company would offer dacs without galvanic isolation build in and tested..
> So what happen now, will I have usb noise with the bifrost.. if yes, i'll remove the usb option from my order..
> We all want and need pitch black background is this so hard to isolate noise?
> bah, I think i'll keep the usb anyway and try it out


----------



## Maxvla

sinae said:


> Is this true, some usb power noise with the bifrost? What, can't believe this, in these day and age, a good company would offer dacs without galvanic isolation build in and tested..
> So what happen now, will I have usb noise with the bifrost.. if yes, i'll remove the usb option from my order..
> We all want and need pitch black background is this so hard to isolate noise?
> bah, I think i'll keep the usb anyway and try it out




It does have galvanic isolation. I can't test myself since I didn't need USB and skipped it, but I think we'd have heard more about this by now (1000+ units in the field) if it were not the case.


----------



## isberg

I did the same. Had a direct order pending with Schiit (#1264) for Lyr+Bifrost. I came here and saw that I was a few hundred back in the shipping queue, so I canceled and then hit the Amazon link and got the Lyr from HiDEF lifestyle (free 2-day Prime shipping) and the Bifrost (w/USB) from Audio Advisor (free ground shipping). Both have shipped and are in transit for delivery before the end of the week. Fast (and free!) delivery; plus Amazon's 30-day return window instead of Schiit's 15-day (though I don't expect to exercise that option).
   
  Had to get the 6N1P tubes direct from Schiit though as I couldn't find any reputable dealers on Amazon. Those aren't on backorder though, so they have shipped as well (though it cost $7 for USPS ground).
   
  p.s. Both HiDEF and Audio Advisor are listed as official dealer's on Schiit's site, so no worries about the warranty being honored.
   
  Quote: 





dwk said:


> I guess I need to give a tip of the hat to the person/people up-thread who talked about vendors having some stock. I ordered a non-USB version from Audio Advisors on the 9th of Feb, and am currently listening. I guess I feel a bit of a twinge of guilt at jumping the queue, but not enough to impair my enjoyment.


----------



## grokit

IMO the Bifrost is a great match for the HD650 and the Lyr is a great match for the K701 so either can sounds great with this combo.


----------



## Llloyd

Anyone here heard the EE Minimax vs the Bifrost?  The minimax seems like it'd be an amazing buy(i use optical not usb).  I'm just wondering how it'd compare or how much of an upgrade it would be.


----------



## luke99

how is galvanic isolation for USB better than a simple dedicated power supply?


----------



## grokit

Quote:


luke99 said:


> how is galvanic isolation for USB better than a simple dedicated power supply?


 

 Paging *leeperry*...


----------



## dyl1dyl

Schiit Balanced Stuff! Sigh, the anticipation is killing me. I suspect it's probably going to be about another 6 months before the Statement DAC and Amp start shipping  The midrange one should see an announcement relatively soon I believe, probably by end of March latest.


----------



## gh0st0

Quote:


dyl1dyl said:


> Schiit Balanced Stuff! Sigh, the anticipation is killing me. I suspect it's probably going to be about another 6 months before the Statement DAC and Amp start shipping  The midrange one should see an announcement relatively soon I believe, probably by end of March latest.


 

 It's a killer, and right at the time I'm in the market for an end-game* balanced dac (just finished my balanced-only beta22 build). Matrix mini 'rental' will have to plug the gap ;/ 
   
  * like this hobby ever has an end-game


----------



## dyl1dyl

Quote: 





gh0st0 said:


> Quote:
> 
> It's a killer, and right at the time I'm in the market for an end-game* balanced dac (just finished my balanced-only beta22 build). Matrix mini 'rental' will have to plug the gap ;/
> 
> * like this hobby ever has an end-game


 

 Haha, very true. I'm probably going to get either the Schiit Statement or the planned Ibasso quad 9018 DAC.


----------



## ninjikiran

Eh it has an endgame, the Lyr was near that to me in what I wanted.  The Taboo adds the cross feed I miss from the concerto and slightly higher fidelity.  I think i'll be happy for years~
   
  The bifrost on the other hand, only reason for it not being an endgame for me is primarily due to the fact that I am 90% sure the statement dac will take everything amazing in the bifrost and make it THAT much better for a price that may break the bank but not require the selling of a lung.

 Far as headphones go, there is no endgame.  I love my rev 1's but I want more flavors in my collection =D  A room full of headphones.
   
  Far as speakers go, I havent even really started.  Just wetting my feet into speaker tech, and I shudder to think about how expensive my speaker end game is going to look like.  Granted I don't buy esoteric $500 cables but still, good speakers and amps/monoblocks dont come cheap.  Nor do the radial speakers I want.


----------



## gh0st0

Quote: 





ninjikiran said:


> The bifrost on the other hand, only reason for it not being an endgame for me is primarily due to the fact that I am 90% sure the statement dac will take everything amazing in the bifrost and make it THAT much better for a price that may break the bank but not require the selling of a lung.


 
  if nothing else, I'm super intrigued by the mysterious technology that Jason has been promising in the statement DAC. Anyone want to hazard a guess? A novel R-2R / multibit implementation? Who knows...


----------



## sridhar3

Quote:


gh0st0 said:


> if nothing else, I'm super intrigued by the mysterious technology that Jason has been promising in the statement DAC. Anyone want to hazard a guess?


 

 My money's on fairy dust and unicorns.


----------



## IEMCrazy

Quote: 





> hello IEMCrazy, yes I do find that the sound of the Lyr gets much better after it reaches its full temperature, your opinion seems to match up really well with what everyone is saying, that is that the Lyr and Bifrost is just a great combo and matches really well with the 650, I just find that the 650s can be a bit too laid back some times for my liking but I have been doing a lot of low level listening of late which doesn,t really catch the 650s at there best.


 
   
  One thing if you do get Bifrost is that while not the most illuminating DAC on the market compared to some multi-kilobuck machines, it's far more illuminating than most, meaning it will perform far better at low volumes than you're likely used to. 
   
  You may also find my recent post on the HD650 Appreciation Thread interesting about driver position and sound.  The gist is: HD650 cups are huge, and I found major sonic differences depending on if I put my ears at the bottom of the cup with a short headband straight up versus putting my ears at the top of the cup with a long headband a bit forward on my head.  The main difference was the air and soundstage (plus a little more treble forward.)  Neither sound is "better", just a different presentation by putting the driver in a different place in relation to the ear.  I'm really liking my brighter airier sound position, but the old lusher warmer closer sound is excellent for low volume with the Bifrost + Lyr.  I actually found myself preferring HD650 in a quiet mode in that more IEM/Active-Monitor like presentation. I prefer it louder in the more open presentation.   Some will think I'm nuts with the "different presentations", but few will dispute that driver positioning makes huge differences in a headphone, and I'm literally shifting the driver position several mm. 
   
  Still, if you would find a brighter, less laid back presentation to suit you more and you can't get it with tube rolling or any HD650 positioning, I'd suggest LCD-2 is not the way you want to go since it's also laid back in presentation.  Maybe HD800, HE-500, something like that if you want to play with the big numbers.  In the HD650's price class, Beyer 880's and AKG 70x are supposedly a bit brighter and more forward and both pair well with Lyr, or so I've heard. And there's always Grado if you like the smell of Ozone from Lyr...


----------



## Argo Duck

FWIW you could read this thread about it I suppose. However, you may be talking about the MiniMax DAC plus, whereas it was the original model reviewed.
   
  Quote: 





llloyd said:


> Anyone here heard the *EE Minimax vs the Bifrost?*  The minimax seems like it'd be an amazing buy(i use optical not usb).  I'm just wondering how it'd compare or how much of an upgrade it would be.


----------



## judmarc

Quote: 





gh0st0 said:


> if nothing else, I'm super intrigued by the mysterious technology that Jason has been promising in the statement DAC. Anyone want to hazard a guess? A novel R-2R / multibit implementation? Who knows...


 


 Ah, I love the smell of speculation in the morning!  :-D
   
  Yeah, I've been thiinking about this as well.  Here's my utter, rank guess, with nothing more than the developers' past history to go on:
   
  An ST-Optical interface (at least as an option) with provision for an optical connection to make the DAC's clock the master and slaving the transport computer's clock to it.  This would provide (1) jitter performance along the lines of async USB; (2) complete electrical isolation on power, signal, and ground; (3) better bandwidth than Toslink for high-res material.


----------



## sinae

What would be important is wordclock output to sync computer to schitt dac clock and a very low ppm clock. 

Afterwards who cares about usb on the dac, soundcards with adat out have better drivers, cheaper, more i/o but the only problem come from the fact that when you use optical out.... then jitter induced from the soundcard poor quality clock will go all the way to the dac that will need to use some async work to reclock the signal to fix jitter but still..

I believe that in the moment more and more of the home studio market will look into the pro audio market to find better quality dacs, amps, headphones.. 

The home studio market is enormous so I don't see why pro audio companies are not targeting this market.

ST-Optical is intriging... is it currently supported in soundcards?


----------



## sinae

misterrogers said:


> Jason has stated a number of times that Bifrost is galvanically isolated. The real 'kicker' with USB, is the HUGE variance of USB implementation, electrical noise, number of other USB devices on a bus (you can be plugged directly into a single USB port and the motherboard can be sharing that USB bus with other devices). One user can plug in and have a clean, quiet experience. Another can plug in and get all sorts of noise. Add to that, the effect on your USB bus timing/noise when various other applications are ran.
> 
> In my experience, it's a very difficult thing for a USB device to eliminate all possible USB related issues. To date, I've yet to see a USB audio device that always worked, never dropped out, zero noise, etc. YMV, but that's been my reality with USB and the audio software that uses it.





So then you give a tested PCI card with USB with the dac.... for like 20-30$ (cost of production or something)

I'm tired of those excuse for lack of proper noise handling in gears that cost so much... 

You find the problem and you fix it.. that's it.. Other companies have done it... 

if it's impossible then why are we using this crappy USB in the first place... Or Why not an internal usb to optical implementation inside the dac itself to isolate noise...

Also with those usb implementation any company toughts about having very low asio latency with asio4all?

Low latency is a must for home studio... this is the reason most of us have an RME/Lynx soundcard... just for the drivers.... mostly


----------



## Defiant00

Personally I haven't had any problem with noise from using USB. I can hear a slight bit of noise with nothing playing and *my amp turned all the way up*, but even that is faint. And do keep in mind that if I started music playing at that level I would promptly blow either my headphones or my ears.
   
  I did get a bit more noise right when I got the Bifrost, but that turned out to be a bad power outlet in my apartment and went away as soon as I plugged it into another (and even then it wasn't audible at anywhere near my normal listening level).
   
  In my opinion their USB implementation is excellent.


----------



## Misterrogers

It is. The only issue I had specifically with the Bifrost implementation was it not supporting 176 sample rate, which I use.
  
  Quote: 





sinae said:


> So then you give a tested PCI card with USB with the dac.... for like 20-30$ (cost of production or something)
> I'm tired of those excuse for lack of proper noise handling in gears that cost so much...
> You find the problem and you fix it.. that's it.. Other companies have done it...
> if it's impossible then why are we using this crappy USB in the first place... Or Why not an internal usb to optical implementation inside the dac itself to isolate noise...
> ...


 


   


  Quote: 





defiant00 said:


> Personally I haven't had any problem with noise from using USB. I can hear a slight bit of noise with nothing playing and *my amp turned all the way up*, but even that is faint. And do keep in mind that if I started music playing at that level I would promptly blow either my headphones or my ears.
> 
> I did get a bit more noise right when I got the Bifrost, but that turned out to be a bad power outlet in my apartment and went away as soon as I plugged it into another (and even then it wasn't audible at anywhere near my normal listening level).
> 
> In my opinion their USB implementation is excellent.


----------



## sinae

Thanx i guess i'll cross my fingers since one of the reason i buy the bifrost is because of power noise coming from my rme soundcard


----------



## olor1n

Just wanted to thank Jason for his patience and willingness to resolve the issues I outlined a few weeks back. I received the replacement Bifrost yesterday and am relieved to report that it has all worked out in the end. All good.


----------



## Maxvla

Grats on resolving the whole ordeal. I'm sure both parties are relieved.


----------



## TubeDriver

Can anybody with a Bifrost without USB, take a look on the back?  Is there a plug for the hole where the USB jack would be?
   
  I have a Bifrost with USB although I have been using Toslink.  I removed the USB module and thought it sounded better through Toslink but I don't like the large hole in the rear panel.  I could just put a piece of tape over the hole but thought Schiit might have some type of plug?


----------



## mmayer167

^ no plug, just a thick sticker that says reserved for usb module or something like that. 
   
  -M


----------



## judmarc

Quote: 





sinae said:


> What would be important is wordclock output to sync computer to schitt dac clock and a very low ppm clock.
> Afterwards who cares about usb on the dac, soundcards with adat out have better drivers, cheaper, more i/o but the only problem come from the fact that when you use optical out.... then jitter induced from the soundcard poor quality clock will go all the way to the dac that will need to use some async work to reclock the signal to fix jitter but still..
> I believe that in the moment more and more of the home studio market will look into the pro audio market to find better quality dacs, amps, headphones..
> The home studio market is enormous so I don't see why pro audio companies are not targeting this market.
> ST-Optical is intriging... is it currently supported in soundcards?


 


 Wanted to be clear that what I described was the DAC clock as master and the computer clock as slave.  In S/PDIF-AES the computer/transport clock is master by default; to overcome that you need to make the computer/transport clock the slave and the DAC clock the master.  That will create the same type of low-jitter regime as async USB, which achieves low jitter because the DAC clock is the master.


----------



## Kremer930

Olor1n - Glad to hear that all worked out well with the Bifrost.  Kudos to Jason and the team also.  
   
  Does anyone notice that Jason seems to be less active on these forums over the past couple of months?  I am guessing that he is flat out sorting out the next product releases whilst still dealing with higher than anticipated demand.
   
  As for the statement dac.... it is pretty hard to work out what it planned.  From memory, we know the intermediate will use the sabre 9018 chip but the statement will pick up the game significantly from there....


----------



## wkhanna

Quote: 





kremer930 said:


> As for the statement dac.... it is pretty hard to work out what it planned.  From memory, we know the intermediate will use the sabre 9018 chip but the statement will pick up the game significantly from there....


 
   
   
  Since we are speculating........how about two chips in a dual differential configuration?


----------



## wkhanna

As shown on the Schiit web site 15 Feb 2012:
*Bifrost* *STATUS: Finishing backorders this week. Orders placed now will ship next week*


----------



## isberg

I canceled my Schiit direct order on Sunday night, and placed an order with Audio Advisors via Amazon. Just showed up on my doorstep 30 minutes ago and shipping was free.
   
  I just checked now and Audio Advisor is out of stock, but Kraft Street Audio has some at a $30 markup (free shipping though - so it may even out).
   
  Potential drawback: Amazon does not appear to have the non-USB version at all.
  
  Quote: 





wkhanna said:


> As shown on the Schiit web site 15 Feb 2012:
> *Bifrost* *STATUS: Finishing backorders this week. Orders placed now will ship next week*


----------



## 4nradio

That's what I did about 10 days ago for a USB version, but my Audio Advisor order was direct through their web site (to avoid Amazon's tax on shipments to WA State). I received the Bifrost very quickly, and it now has over 150 hours of burn-in. 
   
  The SQ definitely took a turn for the better after the 40 hour mark.
   
  I really wanted to order directly from Schiit as I did with the Lyr, but just got tired of the waiting and back order status.
   
  A side note: the finish of the Bifrost from this latest production run looks identical to the brushed aluminum on my Lyr; there's no color variation at all.
  
  Quote: 





isberg said:


> I canceled my Schiit direct order on Sunday night, and placed an order with Audio Advisors via Amazon. Just showed up on my doorstep 30 minutes ago and shipping was free.
> 
> I just checked now and Audio Advisor is out of stock, but Kraft Street Audio has some at a $30 markup (free shipping though - so it may even out).
> 
> Potential drawback: Amazon does not appear to have the non-USB version at all.


----------



## TubeDriver

Quote: 





mmayer167 said:


> ^ no plug, just a thick sticker that says reserved for usb module or something like that.
> 
> -M


 


   
  Thanks for the info.  Maybe a foil backed tape would be best.


----------



## mmayer167

yep, just don't go stuffing tin foil in there! lol 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  -m


----------



## kchau

i just saw an article that certain dacs can play digital audio from the ipad using the camera connection kit.
   
  has anyone tried this with the bifrost?


----------



## ultrarider

Quote: 





kchau said:


> i just saw an article that certain dacs can play digital audio from the ipad using the camera connection kit.
> 
> has anyone tried this with the bifrost?


 


  I'll try this once mine arrives. Currently still on backorder. Guess I'm further back in the queue than I thought I was.


----------



## isberg

I just tried this with my brand new Bifrost (arrived yesterday). iPad 2, iOS 5.0.1 with cam kit. It locks up the iPad hard, requiring a hard reset. Tried it twice. Then to verify, I hooked up the Bifrost USB to my MacBook Air and it worked fine.
  
  Quote: 





kchau said:


> i just saw an article that certain dacs can play digital audio from the ipad using the camera connection kit.
> 
> has anyone tried this with the bifrost?


----------



## Kremer930

I think that I may have seen that article.  It used the Antelope DAC and claimed that the ipad2 could output up to 384 with the camera connection kit.


----------



## grokit

There's actually a whole thread about the iPad CCK and DAC's, I followed it for a while and am surprised re the Bifrost not working since it uses AC power.


----------



## isberg

Yeah, surprised me too (though that thread is not being updated anymore). I did some googling and I found some info for the iPad 1 that stated "USB 1.1" support. The Bifrost uses async USB 2. USB 2 is backwards compat with 1.x, but maybe it's causing a problem with the iPad. Or maybe it's the async that's causing the problem. I don't know. It would be nice if Jason from Schiit could chime in with any thoughts.
  
  Quote: 





grokit said:


> There's actually a whole thread about the iPad CCK and DAC's, I followed it for a while and am surprised re the Bifrost not working since it uses AC power.


----------



## littletino

I tried my Bifrost connected to an iPad 2 with the CCK and had the same results. Locked up hard requiring a reset.


----------



## ultrarider

I know this has been said many, many times before. But I'm absolutely floored by Schiit's customer service. Also, my Bifrost will go out next week. Very excited.


----------



## Raptor34

Got my Valhalla back this morning!   One day turn-around and shipped it back to me.   7 down days in total and most of those were in transit.   Pretty awesome.   
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




   I should get my Bifrost next week.   Keeping fingers  crossed although I'm pretty high up on the list.  #1186 
   
  Quote: 





raptor34 said:


> I haven't the slightest idea.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## IcedTea

#1290 here


----------



## Raptor34

Hang in there. 
  
  Quote: 





icedtea said:


> #1290 here


----------



## wkhanna

I'm 1135, mine did not ship last week.
  According to the web site, they didn'tget all the circuit boards from their supplier that were promised.
  All backorders are now to ship this week.
  Let's hope this is the case.
  I just got a power cable from Signal Cable, in New York, and ordered a glass optical cable from http://www.lifatec.com/toslink2.html which will be here early next week.
  I have a spot prepared and waiting on my equipment rack.
  Jeez, this whole scenario has this 54 yo feeling like kid waiting for x-mass day.


----------



## Misterrogers

Used the same optical cable with Bifrost for a bit - very nice cable. A noticeable upgrade to my ears from the pretty good Blue Jeans plastic optical I had. Very well made too. I think you'll be happy.
  
  Quote: 





wkhanna said:


> I'm 1135, mine did not ship last week.
> According to the web site, they didn'tget all the circuit boards from their supplier that were promised.
> All backorders are now to ship this week.
> Let's hope this is the case.
> ...


----------



## 45longcolt

Hey guys-
   
  I'm tempted to order an optical cable as above, but my iMac desktop is six or seven years old, so is there any way to be sure it outputs via the headphone jack? Did they always do that, or did it happen at some point? I've asked at the local Apple stores, but the subject leaves the staff even more slack-jawed than usual. Or is there a thread that covers this? Any help much appreciated.


----------



## Dougeefresh

Quote: 





45longcolt said:


> Hey guys-
> 
> I'm tempted to order an optical cable as above, but my iMac desktop is six or seven years old, so is there any way to be sure it outputs via the headphone jack? Did they always do that, or did it happen at some point? I've asked at the local Apple stores, but the subject leaves the staff even more slack-jawed than usual. Or is there a thread that covers this? Any help much appreciated.


 

 If you bought your iMac after August 2004 (G5 with the monitor and computer in the display panel), it should have the combination audio jack/mini-toslink plug.
  On your Mac, go to the Apple menu (top left) > About This Mac > Click "More Info" and look under Hardware > Audio. You should see S/PDIF Optical Digital Audio Output if you have one.


----------



## wkhanna

Quote: 





misterrogers said:


> Used the same optical cable with Bifrost for a bit - very nice cable. A noticeable upgrade to my ears from the pretty good Blue Jeans plastic optical I had. Very well made too. I think you'll be happy.


 


 That is encouraging to hear.
  I have never used optical before.
  Are you using something different now?


----------



## Draygonn

wkhanna said:


> Jeez, this whole scenario has this 54 yo feeling like kid waiting for x-mass day.




Thats a good way of putting it. My month long wait for the Bifrost seems like a weekend compared to 5 months for Thunderpants. Someone posted their BHSE took over a year to get delivered. I too will feel like a kid on Xmas when my equipment arrives


----------



## ninjikiran

or ~4 months for my taboo xD


----------



## Kremer930

When is the start time for wait relating to the intermediate gear? 

I am guessing that Jason is getting messed around by some supplier. It could be turnover exceeding his forecasts but I would guess more of a supplier or quality issue. Their original forecast was to have the statement amp out by Christmas 2011. 

I am quite happy in some ways that it was delayed. It gave me an excuse to get the Bifrost as well as some serious upgrades to my portable rig whilst waiting. There is always a silver lining!


----------



## grokit

Quote:


ninjikiran said:


> or ~4 months for my taboo xD


 


   
  I get it now, finally!


----------



## Misterrogers

Yea, I added an Audiophilleo2 to my chain, as I wanted bit accurate sample rates across the board. the optical/spdif port on mac's is capped at 24/96. Bifrost's USB was fairly good too, but the USB receiving chip within doesn't support 176. With the Audiophilleo2, I get it all, and a bit of an upgrade (extremely low jitter, great sonics for a converter) to my chain. But at a price for sure.
  
  Quote: 





wkhanna said:


> That is encouraging to hear.
> I have never used optical before.
> Are you using something different now?


----------



## wkhanna

Quote: 





draygonn said:


> Thats a good way of putting it. My month long wait for the Bifrost seems like a weekend compared to 5 months for Thunderpants. Someone posted their BHSE took over a year to get delivered. I too will feel like a kid on Xmas when my equipment arrives


 


  
Sorry to go OT, but I noticed the Bottlehead Crack in your signature.
One day, I will build one of their pre-amps for my vinyl rig.
I really want to hear how good they are supposed to be.


----------



## mab1376

are these units still backordered?
   
  I plan on ordering one this week on payday.


----------



## xxhaxx

Based from their website, if you were to order now they should ship it out by next week


----------



## mab1376

can anyone recommend a good coax cable?


----------



## wkhanna

Quote: 





mab1376 said:


> can anyone recommend a good coax cable?


 


  
I've been buying and using CatCables for 6 years. I must have 20 various cables (RCA & Digital) in my entire system. Doug hand-makes each one. He will even do custom lengths. I have had friends bring much more expensive cables over to my place, but my Cats always hold forth.
   
He has three different digital coax cables that are very reasonably priced, IMHO.
I have no affiliation with this company. I am just V happy with the product.
   
http://www.catcables.com/products.htm


----------



## wkhanna

Quote: 





misterrogers said:


> Yea, I added an Audiophilleo2 to my chain, as I wanted bit accurate sample rates across the board. the optical/spdif port on mac's is capped at 24/96. Bifrost's USB was fairly good too, but the USB receiving chip within doesn't support 176. With the Audiophilleo2, I get it all, and a bit of an upgrade (extremely low jitter, great sonics for a converter) to my chain. But at a price for sure.


 

My good friend was looking at the Audiophilleo2. He is running from his home server thru a Musical Fidelity - V-LINK Mk II - USB to SPDIF Converter to a Cambridge Audio 840 CDP. But like you say, the entry fee is substantial. If he likes my Bifrost when it gets here, I think he is just going to wait for the 'Statement'.


----------



## judmarc

Quote: 





mab1376 said:


> can anyone recommend a good coax cable?


 


  Omega Mikro.  Not cheap but consistently best I've heard over a 20-year period.  They usually have used models of their entry-level digital coax ("Zephyr") in their consignment shop.  The used ones should be - brace yourself - about $280 or thereabouts.  (Yes, I know, this is silly stuff when talking about a $350-$450 DAC.  I bought mine a couple of years before the Bifrost.)  They do have less expensive coax cables under the Mapleshade name, which should be very good in their price ranges as well, though not on a level with the Zephyr IMHO.


----------



## mab1376

Quote: 





judmarc said:


> Omega Mikro.  Not cheap but consistently best I've heard over a 20-year period.  They usually have used models of their entry-level digital coax ("Zephyr") in their consignment shop.  The used ones should be - brace yourself - about $280 or thereabouts.  (Yes, I know, this is silly stuff when talking about a $350-$450 DAC.  I bought mine a couple of years before the Bifrost.)  They do have less expensive coax cables under the Mapleshade name, which should be very good in their price ranges as well, though not on a level with the Zephyr IMHO.


 

 Well that's one crazy looking cable.


----------



## wkhanna

I have Mapleshade speaker cables.
  Got them years ago.
  They held forth against Nordost Norse at a fraction of the cost.
  Of course, IMHO, YMMV.
  No more posts from me on cables.
  I promise.


----------



## powerpopper

Did you hear that? Those are the angel choirs singing at my house because my Bifrost is shipping today! (#1077 for those keeping score at home...) With the Lyr scheduled to arrive today, it's like Christmas in February.


----------



## wkhanna

Quote: 





powerpopper said:


> Did you hear that?


 
  Oh, is that what that noise was?
  I will be hearing reindeer hoofs on my roof soon.
  #1135 shipped today, too.


----------



## TWIFOSP

Did you get an email notifying you of shipping?  1209 Not shipped today


----------



## ultrarider

Quote: 





twifosp said:


> Did you get an email notifying you of shipping?  1209 Not shipped today


 

 You'll get an email and the website will be updated as well.


----------



## kh6idf

Guess I'll get in line now, I sent in my order #1337 this morning for the non-USB Bifrost.  I'm planning to connect it via toslink to my Squeezebox (V3), driving a Stax SR202 / SRM-252II combo.


----------



## ieatfishburitos

Quote: 





isberg said:


> I canceled my Schiit direct order on Sunday night, and placed an order with Audio Advisors via Amazon. Just showed up on my doorstep 30 minutes ago and shipping was free.
> 
> I just checked now and Audio Advisor is out of stock, but Kraft Street Audio has some at a $30 markup (free shipping though - so it may even out).
> 
> Potential drawback: Amazon does not appear to have the non-USB version at all.


 
  You're killing me isberg.  I placed an order with Audio Advisors at noon on 12/12 and got an out of stock message on 12/13!  Still waiting.


----------



## Zacwah

Quote: 





kh6idf said:


> Guess I'll get in line now, I sent in my order #*1337 *this morning for the non-USB Bifrost


 
  LEET Order bro.


----------



## Draygonn

#1107 shipped


----------



## powerpopper

Today is an even better day because the Bifrost has landed! Looks great, sounds good so far but now to start the Lyr tube rolling. Up first (for no particular reason) the 6N1Ps! Now if I can just find a new cable for my LCD-2 I'll be set!...at least until the next big thing.


----------



## Raptor34

1186 shipped


----------



## openreel

My Lyr is glowing a bit brighter knowing that the Bitfrost (#1177) should be here next Thursday.


----------



## kr0gg

Quote: 





wkhanna said:


> My good friend was looking at the Audiophilleo2. He is running from his home server thru a Musical Fidelity - V-LINK Mk II - USB to SPDIF Converter to a Cambridge Audio 840 CDP. But like you say, the entry fee is substantial. If he likes my Bifrost when it gets here, I think he is just going to wait for the 'Statement'.


 


  is statement dac going to be released this summer or not?


----------



## mab1376

just ordered a non-usb Bifrost 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  order number: 1366


----------



## Rebel975

mab1376 said:


> just ordered a non-usb Bifrost
> 
> order number: 1366





What I instantly thought of: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGA_1366


----------



## mab1376

I actually have one of those sockets in my PC


----------



## GeorgeNapalm

Order #1297 shipped! Can't wait


----------



## IcedTea

#1290 shipped too  
   
  My valhalla has been lonely..


----------



## Raptor34

Got mine this morning, check it out.


----------



## Maxvla

Looks like Schiit is clearing backorders right on schedule. Nicely done. Now let's see some info on the next levels! I can be only so patient


----------



## HiroPro

I'm thinking heavily about purchasing this DAC. I'm also thinking of picking up Kingwa's Digital Interface USB for $140 bucks. It ends up being only $40 bucks more to add USB over the Bifrost USB option.
   
  Opinions?
   
  Also how does this DAC compare to Kingwa's [size=x-small]NFB-10SE or other lower priced Audio Gd gear?[/size]


----------



## TWIFOSP

Received mine today and it's dead on arrival.  No power no lights.


----------



## Jason Stoddard

Quote: 





twifosp said:


> Received mine today and it's dead on arrival.  No power no lights.


 


  Already replied. Sorry for the inconvenience. We'll get another one out to you on Monday and reimburse your shipping.


----------



## TWIFOSP

Electronics fail, but it's how you handle it that matters.  And in that regard I must say this fast of a response on a Saturday is excellent customer service.  Thanks Jason!
  
  Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> Already replied. Sorry for the inconvenience. We'll get another one out to you on Monday and reimburse your shipping.


----------



## olor1n

Quote: 





hiropro said:


> I'm thinking heavily about purchasing this DAC. I'm also thinking of picking up Kingwa's Digital Interface USB only for $140 bucks. It ends up being only $40 bucks more to add USB over the Bifrost USB option.
> 
> Opinions?
> 
> *Also how does this DAC compare to Kingwa's *[size=x-small]*NFB-10SE* or other lower priced Audio Gd gear?[/size]


 


  The Bifrost trumps the 10SE in treble presentation and sense of "air". It has a smoothness in this region where the 10SE (starting in the upper mid range) could sound dry and ultimately fatiguing at times. Details are slightly accentuated by the Bifrost, giving a different view point to the mid and bass centric signature of the 10SE. The Bifrost seems more transparent as a result, though I do at times yearn for the weight, slam and dynamics of the 10SE sound. A mix of the 10SE's and Bifrost's strengths would be ideal, but that sound seems reserved for dearer and higher end components.


----------



## leesure

I have both the Bifrost and a 10SE, and as a DAC it's no contest. The Bifrost wins hands down. The 10SE's value lies in an all-in-one DAC/Amp that can drive orthos.  The Bifrost/Lyr is better but costs $400 more. The 10SE is a good all-around performer but lacks the refinement of the Schiit combo.


----------



## HiroPro

I just love the name
   
  ROTFL
   
  I'm going to get the product just because of the bloody name!!!
   
  ROTFL
   
  Do you think Kingwa's USB option is better than getting the Bifrost with USB? It's only $50 bucks more...
   
  A lot of highend boutique gear uses fancy European names even though the company is owned and EEs last name is say...
   
  SMITH
   
  LOL
   
  It's a great way to make fun of that BS!


----------



## HiroPro

Quote: 





leesure said:


> I have both the Bifrost and a 10SE, and as a DAC it's no contest. The Bifrost wins hands down. The 10SE's value lies in an all-in-one DAC/Amp that can drive orthos.  The Bifrost/Lyr is better but costs $400 more. The 10SE is a good all-around performer but lacks the refinement of the Schiit combo.


 


  I wonder how much of that is due to the analog output section and HF amp, in particular the tubes. How does the Lyr compare to the solid-state headphone amp? I'm curious if a balanced output stage DAC is in the works as I'm going to be using it for a HT rig that doubles for two channel.
   
  I'm curious about the output stage from the AKM4399 to the single ended outs... Personally I think this is the most important thing and what gives most gear it's signature sound. Well this stage and it's relationship with the input stage on the amplifier. This is also why the Burson 160 also interests me. I've heard Kingwa's cheaper DACs and 10SE and was very very impressed so I'm really surprised to hear owners of 10SE and this Schiit piece feeling the Schiit is better...
   
  LOL
   
  I laugh everytime I mention the name ehh... and the Moto/tag line is PERFECT
   
  I guess at this point "I ain't gunna believe this Schiit!" until I hear it...
   
   
  Currently I have the buggy UMC-1 but I will be replacing it with XMC-1 this summer when it ships as well as an ATI AT2007. XMC-1 is a fully differential pre/pro end to end and also has balanced ins (with TacT DRC!) so I could actually warrant a more expensive differential version. The ATI amps are also true differentials end to end. I'd bet money the Schiit boys know that though as they did work for vendors that use Morris Kessler pieces/modules customized and/or stenciled.


----------



## wkhanna

A little help, Please.
  My Bifrost arives tomorrow.
  I can not find the link to for the Windows driver.
  I know it has been posted here previously, but my use of the 'search' function here did not find it.
  I can't find it at the Schiit site, either.
  Anybody mind helping me out?
  TIA
  Bill


----------



## Maxvla

http://schiit.com/drivers/


----------



## wkhanna

Quote: 





maxvla said:


> http://schiit.com/drivers/


 


 Jeez. What took you so long! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  Thank you V much, Maxvla.


----------



## wkhanna

Quote: 





maxvla said:


> http://schiit.com/drivers/


 


 I see by your sig, you are using a RDD-980.
  Do you use the optical or the coax output?
  Do you have a preferance?


----------



## Maxvla

I use coaxial. I've only owned it a short time. I have not tried optical, but I don't expect any difference.


----------



## ultrarider

No update on my shipment in the past 5 days from FedEx. Sigh....


----------



## mab1376

I just emailed info@schiit.com and Jason replied and said it will ship today or tomorrow.
   
  order # 1366


----------



## GeorgeNapalm

Quote: 





ultrarider said:


> No update on my shipment in the past 5 days from FedEx. Sigh....


 

 That's normal. When I ordered Lyr, it was shipped from CA on Friday and there was no update unitll next Thursday when it arrived to MA. But it arrived right on Estimated delivery date anyways. Just be patient


----------



## wkhanna

Mine was the same way, shipping from CA to PGH, PA.
  No update till the truck hit the depot in PA.
  FedEx tracker says it is on my porch as I write this.
  I will be arriving home shortly.
  But not soon enough.


----------



## kh6idf

Mine shipped today - #1337.  Shouldn't take too long to get from CA to Phoenix.


----------



## IcedTea

My Bifrost light is outshining my Valhalla light lol 
   
  I think my Valhalla must have been an older model, the grey on the steel is a bit darker than the Bifrost
   
  btw, I'm loving the Bifrost


----------



## xxhaxx

The first thing I did was tape over the LED so bright


----------



## Maxvla

Steve Guttenberg's take on the Bifrost: http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/schiit-bifrost-digital-analog-converter


----------



## IcedTea

Are you guys letting the DAC burn in? I'm not sure what I should do to burn it in, I don't want to leave my valhalla tubes on the entire time :/


----------



## olor1n

Quote: 





icedtea said:


> Are you guys letting the DAC burn in? I'm not sure what I should do to burn it in, I don't want to leave my valhalla tubes on the entire time :/


 


  Lol. Just listen to it and turn it off when you're done. The Bifrost (and I've had 2) does not magically transform with burn in. It does sound less etched over time, but it's subtle and does not require hundreds of hours to eventuate.


----------



## IcedTea

Nice nice, 
   
  then I don't have to do anything but enjoy


----------



## HiroPro

I've been looking at the spec sheet on this DAC. It has 2VRMS differential drive with 1k load BUT only 100pF load capacitance! This means that the buffer is VERY IMPORTANT in the design. I'm curious about the bal-se conversion. I'm very curious about the buffer then as this would be most important in the design. Does it use op-amps? It's a discrete active buffer? Does it use a transformer for conversion? I'm also curious if a differential output model will be offered considering the DACs output...
   
  PS I'm just a DIYer and no EE so bare with me Jason if I'm incorrect about some details.


----------



## Raptor34

Same here.  It's too bright.  Casting shadows on the wall  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





     The Bifrost case on mine is darker than the Valhalla.   These ought to keep me until I go to the real Valhalla.  I absolutely love them.   Well, not 'love' but you know what I mean  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




    
  
  Quote: 





icedtea said:


> My Bifrost light is outshining my Valhalla light lol
> 
> I think my Valhalla must have been an older model, the grey on the steel is a bit darker than the Bifrost
> 
> btw, I'm loving the Bifrost


----------



## jworl

A friend let me borrow his Emotiva XDA-1 DAC this week, and it's been a decent combo with my Asgard amp. It's footprint is just too damn large.
   
  I was happy enough with the Asgard and customer service from Jason that I blindly (er... deafly?) placed my order today. Hopefully I'll love it just the same.


----------



## ultrarider

Help me make sure I'm not missing anything. I got my Bifrost today and I'm not getting any sound of of the right channel. Left is fine. This is for both USB and Optical. 
   
  My XM6 is working fine via USB. 
   
   
  If I take the Left output of the Bifrost and plug it into the Right of my Asgard, that works. So I know the Asgard is fine. If take the cable that's working on the left channel and move it to the right output on the Bifrost I get nada.
   
  Can't think of anything else to try.
   
  Jason has been great with getting right back to me. I just want to make doubly sure I'm not being an idiot.


----------



## Defiant00

Unfortunately it sounds like you've tried everything you should; certainly doesn't sound like you've missed any blatant gotchas at least.
  Quote: 





ultrarider said:


> Help me make sure I'm not missing anything. I got my Bifrost today and I'm not getting any sound of of the right channel. Left is fine. This is for both USB and Optical.
> 
> My XM6 is working fine via USB.
> 
> ...


----------



## ultrarider

Going to try it with my Pure i-20 at work tomorrow. Along with some different interconnects. I've gotten the same result on 3 different computers thus far (Macs and PCs on USB). 
   
  --Edit--
   
  Jason gave the OK for me to ship my unit back. I'm already reimbursed for the return charges and the replacement is going out ASAP. I'm starting to suspect that Jason is either a robot or has an army of clones at his disposal. Either way, stellar customer service.


----------



## Hero Kid

I am not sure if anyone has seen this yet but I figured I would cross post it.
   
  Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *Jason Stoddard* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> [...]
> 
> Midrange balanced DAC: solid state, will have balanced and SE outputs, BNC, RCA, TOSLINK, and optional USB inputs. Again, this is a real hardware balanced deal, upgradable a la Bifrost (but with two DAC/analog boards that are different than Bifrost.) There's some real neat trickery in our (REDACTED) section. Sorry to tease, but you'll see what we're talking about soon enough. [...]


 
   
  And from my readings it is likely to be released along side a mid-tier solid state headphone amp (or the same dimensions) in Q1.


----------



## jworl

Damn it! Should've read through the entire thread before placing an order. Oh well...


----------



## grokit

For myself, I'm really wondering what the differences will be between the mid-range balanced DAC and the statement DAC.
   
  I will upgrade to one of those or the new Woo but I must say there are quite a bit to choose from in the $500 - $1500 category. I don't want to pay for an integrated headamp that I will never use and want balanced outputs. I am quite satisfied with what I am using now but I know there is better out there.


----------



## wkhanna

Quote: 





olor1n said:


> Lol. Just listen to it and turn it off when you're done. The Bifrost (and I've had 2) does not magically transform with burn in. It does sound less etched over time, but it's subtle and does not require hundreds of hours to eventuate.


 
  Agreed. Mine has less than 30 hours on it and it is outperforming my Cambridge Audio 640 v2 CDp which incorporates dual differential Wolfson DAC's.
   
  No wimpy LF found by my ears.
   
  I'm having a ball!


----------



## dyl1dyl

*STATUS: All backorders cleared. Current orders ship in 24-72 hours.*

   
* **YAY!!! Balanced DACs/Amps here we come *


----------



## dyl1dyl

Quote: 





hero kid said:


> I am not sure if anyone has seen this yet but I figured I would cross post it.
> 
> 
> And from my readings it is likely to be released along side a mid-tier solid state headphone amp (or the same dimensions) in Q1.


 

 Unlikely to be quarter 1 now though after the Bifrost production problems. I would guess that we may see an announcement by the end of March with shipping maybe in the middle of April for the mid range stuff.


----------



## Maxvla

Not so much Bifrost production problems, but responding to the incredible demand. Takes a while to make nearly 1500 Bifrosts. Take care how you word stuff.


----------



## kh6idf

My Bifrost should be delivered today, exactly as estimated on their web site last week.  (orders would be delivered in about a week).
   
  I see now they are saying the backlog is cleared and orders will be shipped in 24-72 hours.
   
  That's pretty good performance if you ask me!


----------



## dyl1dyl

Quote: 





maxvla said:


> Not so much Bifrost production problems, but responding to the incredible demand. Takes a while to make nearly 1500 Bifrosts. Take care how you word stuff.


 

 Haha, actually meant the problems with their board making company as Jason said, not Schiit's fault


----------



## dyl1dyl

Really hope less people order the midrange stuff so I can get my Statement DAC and possibly amp soon!


----------



## Maxvla

dyl1dyl said:


> Really hope less people order the midrange stuff so I can get my Statement DAC and possibly amp soon!




x2


----------



## Slab

After going back and forth on which DAC to get I ended up ordering one of these to pair with my Valhalla. It should be in next week and I can't wait!


----------



## shaunybaby

Woah they cleared there back orders yay! i,m happy but im not sure how my wallet feels about this 
   
  can,t wait for the midrange dac and amp combo to come out!


----------



## mab1376

Mine just got picked up by fedex a few hours ago! 
   
  hopefully I'll have mine in a few days.


----------



## Uncle00Jesse




----------



## Maxvla

Probably better asked in an EF5 thread or Hifiman customer support.


----------



## kh6idf

#1337 arrived, burning in now.   I reduced the LED brightness by cutting a piece out of the leftover rubber feet material and sticking it over the LED.  Those things are seriously bright!


----------



## rubenpp

Mine arrived today . Listening now


----------



## Maxvla

kh6idf said:


> #1337 arrived, burning in now.   I reduced the LED brightness by cutting a piece out of the leftover rubber feet material and sticking it over the LED.  Those things are seriously bright!




We need a selector switch like LCD tvs have 'torch mode' for displaying in stores (meets) and 'normal mode' for actually watching it in a house.


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





maxvla said:


> We need a selector switch like LCD tvs have 'torch mode' for displaying in stores (meets) and 'normal mode' for actually watching it in a house.


 

 Ambient light sensor.  That would make a 'Statement'.  Ahem....


----------



## wkhanna

I am not a fan of the latest craze for blue & white LED's.
  The LED intensity can easily be padded down using a resistor, however, you will likely void your warranty.
  I will actually be changing mine to a Red LED, to match the rest of my gear.
  A couple of my components have already been either changed to red or had the orginal red padded down.
  I typically listen in low-light, and find any LED's other than red quite distracting.
   
  JMHO, YMMV


----------



## brother love

Quote: 





maxvla said:


> Steve Guttenberg's take on the Bifrost: http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/schiit-bifrost-digital-analog-converter


 

 Thanks!  Nice to see some more reviews coming in.
   
  RE: LED bright lights... these things seem to be more common on newer equipment of late.  Just a few of these could light up a runway for plane takeoff!


----------



## TWIFOSP

Received bifrost #2 today.  Thanks Jason for a super quick turn around!  Schiity customer service is now a compliment.


----------



## sinae

brother love said:


> Thanks!  Nice to see some more reviews coming in.
> 
> RE: LED bright lights... these things seem to be more common on newer equipment of late.  Just a few of these could light up a runway for plane takeoff!




Totally agree, should be a lot dimmer, i mostly always put tapes on those crazy led.. would be nice to have a dimmer or a way to turn them off


----------



## cpu8088

has anyone used the bifrost to play 24/88 and 24/176 files with success?


----------



## wkhanna

[size=10pt]The Bifrost has been running 24/7 since Monday, and we are now at the 100 hour mark.

 It has definitely smoothed out some. I notice it most in the high and mid range. What has not changed is the speed and detail. The overall balance may be the slightest bit light in low mid & V bottom range, however the accuracy and clean, snappy kick in percussive detail is absolutely amazing. String bass, Congo, bass drum and synthesized bass is extremely musical and alive with enough raw power to maintain the overall natural essence. With acoustic material, the bottom truly shines. I have no desire what so ever to tweak any extra bass via the tone knob. I will take musicality, tonality and timing over ‘big boom’ every time.

 The highs are silky, but still V sharp and crisp. Exquisite detail with no grain, no ‘edge’ typically associated with digital. This is the area where digital can induce listening fatigue. Not so with this DAC.

 The mid range started out great, now it is true as life. Voices ring clear and true. Brass and woodwinds shimmer and shine. Strings are full of percussive quality, as they should be.

 Regarding depth, nothing has changed. My system has always had a V deep sense, attributed to the pre-amp and speakers. Same with stage width. And focus may actually be bettered. If it is on the source material, it is in my room. And if the source material is sub-par, the result will be displayed in spades. I noticed it right away with my ‘Trombone Shorty’ rip. Brick-Walled mixing will hit you like a……well, like running into brick wall. Bifrost will not hide any flaw. In other words, the Bifrost is adding nothing. Nor is it demanding tithe in return for tonality or musicality. It is totally transparent in my system.

 If I were to condense my overall opinion into one word (that would be a first) I would have say ‘detail’. The Bifrost is delivering an amazing sense of life, truth and realness that is unexpected at this price.[/size]
   
   
  [size=10pt]My System:[/size]
  [size=10pt]SeeDee w/FLAC Conversion via dBpoweramp & Imported HiRes files > NAS File Storage > Foobar File Management & Control > SoundBlaster Audigy 2 XS Sound Card ASIO > SPDIF Silflex Glass Optical > Bifrost DAC > Kingcats RCA I/C's > Carver C-19 Pre-amp > Kingcats RCA I/C's > Rotel RB-1090 > Mapleshade Cleaview Golden Helix Speaker Cable > NatP 65 litre Towers[/size]


----------



## Maxvla

Nice impressions. They mirror mine.


----------



## TubeDriver

Changing LEDs brightness in the Bifrost is easy. Just open up the unit and you will see that the LEDs are just sitting on their leads. Bend then down (or up) SLIGHTLY and they will not be as aligned with the opening. The intensity can be adjusted this way to suit your preferences.


----------



## sampson_smith

Great advice, TubeDriver! Thanks.


----------



## wkhanna

X2!


----------



## internethandle

Re: the adjustment of the LEDs, I inadvertently dimmed them in a similar manner when I opened up my Bifrost for the HiFi-Tuning fuse upgrade - it's pretty difficult, really, to NOT make them dimmer if you open up the Bifrost, since lining up the LEDs with their respective holes in a flush manner as they come stock is pretty difficult. So you could probably just unscrew everything, slightly pull out the DAC board, then slide it back in, tighten all the screws, and it'd be dimmer.


----------



## judmarc

Quote: 





cpu8088 said:


> has anyone used the bifrost to play 24/88 and 24/176 files with success?


 


 176.4 resolution won't work through USB.  Other resolutions through USB, and all resolutions through 192 into the other inputs, should work.
   
  I routinely play 24/88.2 files (Stones downloads from HDTracks) with no problem.


----------



## ultrarider

Replacement Bifrost has arrived and is working great. Sounds much better in stereo  Great customer service from Jason.


----------



## mab1376

Mine should be here tomorrow!


----------



## pyramid6

^^^^ This!
   
  I order the Asgard and Bifrost and not 15 minutes later they had it shipped.  They clearly caught up.


----------



## arcinthesky

Anyone know if this cable works for Bifrost? It says 8mm.
   
http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10229&cs_id=1022904&p_id=6270&seq=1&format=2
   
  Or should I just get the 5mm one?


----------



## TheGrumpyOldMan

Looks like the diameter of the jacket. The toslink connector itself is always standard size. The back of the Bifrost is flat and the connector is flush with it, so it should fit OK, but I don't know about what you'll connect on the other end; make sure it's flush with a flat back too or at least has enough clearance.
   
  They refer to the XBox Slim requiring the 5mm one, I guess because its connector may be recessed with no enough space for the large "Metal Fancy Connector" 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  In terms of quality, optical cables are considered of higher quality if using glass/quartz, and that will be mentioned specifically, not just "premium". How much of a difference it makes is debatable  (esp. on Head-Fi 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) but you are running 10ft. based on your link, that's pretty long.


----------



## wkhanna

I'm using a 10' glass optical cable with absolutely no issues thus far.
  Maybe I'm just lucky?
  Obviously, the longer the run, the greater the loss in signal strengtht.
  Still, for optical, 10' "should" be reasonable for most applications, IMHO.
  Remember, the signal is digital (on - off) not analog.
   
  Of greater influence may be the quality of the device generating the actual light signal along with the receiver at the other end?


----------



## judmarc

Quote: 





wkhanna said:


> Remember, the signal is digital (on - off) not analog.


 
   
  Uh-oh!  Misconception alert!  
   
  Nope, there are not happy little 1s and 0s, nor Morse Code-like on-and-off flickerings making their way down your digital cable.  It is in fact an *analog* (waves with frequency and amplitude) signal that *represents* the digits, which in turn represent another analog signal - the music.


----------



## judmarc

Had heard Wilco on the radio before, but last night I listened to one of their albums at home for the first time (The Whole Love, 24/96 download).  Man, where have I been all this band's life?
   
  It was so great - the band, the terrific sound - I thought I'd drop a line and say that after 4 months I am just enjoying the heck out of the Bifrost.
   
  Thanks, Jason, Mike,and Rina.


----------



## Uncle00Jesse

wilco is probably the best "unknown" band out there right now. I've seen them live 3 times and they are incredible. The Whole Love's recording quality is unbelievable. There is nothing like the first 30 seconds of "I Might" out of a good pair of cans on a good system. Though, some of their earlier LPs do not have that kind of quality, "Sky Blue Sky" coming to mind - eventhough this is my favorite Wilco offering.
   
  Oh, and if you want to feel like your actually at a Wilco concert, look no further than "Kicking Television - Live in Chicago". "Muzzle of Bees" gives me goosepimples.


----------



## TWIFOSP

I've had several days with the new bifrost and I have to say that USB sounds better to me.  The optical spdif connection in comparison is quieter and sounds like it has slightly more veil and muffle.  The USB is more open and clear.
   
  Could my computer be influencing the optical out in a way that it is not through USB?  I would honestly expect them to sound the same, but schiit even says that USB isn't as good as the optical connection. 
   
  What are everyone's thoughts on USB vs Optical?


----------



## Defiant00

I listen almost exclusively through USB but the couple times I tried optical I couldn't tell any difference.
   
  If you find there is an obvious difference then I would personally suspect that your computer is doing something to the optical out. While I'm sure with very close listening there are probably some that can tell the two apart, if it's an obvious big difference then it sounds like there's something else going on.


----------



## TWIFOSP

It's not huge, but yes it is obvious.  I see that I can control the left and right balance through the sound properties still, so I suspect that my sound card is still trying to do some processing before it resamples and sends the signal out.  Any know how I can confirm this?
   
  Or maybe the USB is playing at a higher sample rate?  I don't think this is the case, I don't really believe that I can hear that much difference in already high quality sample rates from lossless audio.
   
  Quote: 





defiant00 said:


> I listen almost exclusively through USB but the couple times I tried optical I couldn't tell any difference.
> 
> If you find there is an obvious difference then I would personally suspect that your computer is doing something to the optical out. While I'm sure with very close listening there are probably some that can tell the two apart, if it's an obvious big difference then it sounds like there's something else going on.


----------



## wkhanna

[size=medium]Whoa!!!!!!![/size]
   
*[size=medium]My sincere apologies![/size]*
  [size=medium]The absolute last thing I wish to do is spread bad information.[/size]
  [size=medium]Thank you for the correction, judmarc.[/size]
  [size=medium]I am a newbie to using optical.[/size]
  [size=medium]I will now spend some time doing research on optical,[/size]
  [size=medium]and try to keep my mouth shut in the future when I’m not qualified to make accurate comments.[/size]
  Quote: 





judmarc said:


> Uh-oh!  Misconception alert!
> 
> Nope, there are not happy little 1s and 0s, nor Morse Code-like on-and-off flickerings making their way down your digital cable.  It is in fact an *analog* (waves with frequency and amplitude) signal that *represents* the digits, which in turn represent another analog signal - the music.


----------



## IEMCrazy

Quote: 





twifosp said:


> It's not huge, but yes it is obvious.  I see that I can control the left and right balance through the sound properties still, so I suspect that my sound card is still trying to do some processing before it resamples and sends the signal out.  Any know how I can confirm this?
> 
> Or maybe the USB is playing at a higher sample rate?  I don't think this is the case, I don't really believe that I can hear that much difference in already high quality sample rates from lossless audio.


 

  
  I think when Jason says that S/PDIF is better than USB, I think what he means is a GOOD S/PDIF implementation is better than the best USB implementation, at least as far as the Bifrost's USB and S/PDIF receivers are concerned.  The FAQ also mentions that S/PDIF implementations do vary as well.
   
  Meaning that Bifrost's S/PDIF receiver(s) have higher capabilities than its USB receiver, but if your USB "transmitter" is superior to your S/PDIF "transmitter", USB will still be the better one.  But a good /SPDIF transmitter paired to Bifrost's S/PDIF receiver would, in his estimation, outperform the best that USB 2.0 Audio can offer.  In his opinion anyway.  It is also possible that your sound card is doing some mangling before converting to S/PDIF, or you're still using the OS-level mixer which is upsampling and doing all sorts of ugly things, whereas USB to Bifrost bypasses that since the Bifrost becomes the sound card.
   
  Also, in most cases coax S/PDIF is considered better than optical/Toslink except in cases of high RF interference.  The combination of potential jitter from the analog-light conversion stage and the fact that most Toslink fiber is garbage material are the reason.  There are good glass cables and optical-plastiic cables out there that perform wonderfully....it's just not what most of us have lying around our parts bins... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





   If you have a coax-out on your PC as well, you may want to give it a try to rule out poor cabling.


----------



## IEMCrazy

Quote: 





judmarc said:


> Uh-oh!  Misconception alert!
> 
> Nope, there are not happy little 1s and 0s, nor Morse Code-like on-and-off flickerings making their way down your digital cable.  It is in fact an *analog* (waves with frequency and amplitude) signal that *represents* the digits, which in turn represent another analog signal - the music.


 


  Analog, yes, though it does take quite a bit of interference for the receiver to mistake a peak for "off" and a valley for "on."   Though given the materials used in most optical cables, it's more common than it should be 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Jitter/timing on the other hand....that can be problematic.... But it's rarely as bad as USB's outright mis-delivered out-of-order packets...


----------



## ROBSCIX

Strange he would say that as the USB receiver on the Bifrost is said to be on of the best true USB 2.0 Asynchronous receivers.
  As you said though, it depends alot on implementation.
   
  You can use a soundcard for S/Pdif without a bunch of "mangling" you can use ASIO,KS or WASAPI based on your hardware.
  Although there are many better S/Pdif sources out there then a soundcard.
   
  On the subject of optical, some like optical for being immune to RFI/EMI but they seem to never consider the quality of the transmitters and receivers.
  If they are low grade, you can have issues.


----------



## jworl

Quote: 





judmarc said:


> Uh-oh!  Misconception alert!
> 
> Nope, there are not happy little 1s and 0s, nor Morse Code-like on-and-off flickerings making their way down your digital cable.  It is in fact an *analog* (waves with frequency and amplitude) signal that *represents* the digits, which in turn represent another analog signal - the music.


 
   
  Not trying to come across as pretentious, but I (like many others on here) would like some clarification.
  
  "The digital audio chain begins when an analog audio signal is first sampled, and then (for pulse-code modulation, the usual form of digital audio) it is converted into binary signals—‘on/off’ pulses—which are stored as binary electronic, magnetic, or optical signals, rather than as continuous time, continuous level electronic or electromechanical signals."
  source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_audio
   
  While wikipedia may not be the most reliable source, the above article makes the most sense to me. I was always under the impression that PCM (pulse code modulation) _is_ entirely digital as opposed to your analog claim. I don't see the difference between happy little 1s and 0s and on/off pulses. As I mentioned before, I'm not saying my current understanding is entirely correct-- just looking for clarification.
   
  Jason (or anyone willing, really), if you're reading this and have time, we'd love an explanation. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ....er.... or at least I would.
   

   
  edit-- on a Bifrost related note, mine should arrive tomorrow, and I can't wait! Hopefully it will be on par with the Emotiva XDA-1 I was using if not better.


----------



## Rebel975

He may not have known that Spdif was being discussed, as what he says makes sense in other digital mediums (ones that have copper wires/electricity).


----------



## Raptor34

I use the 3 foot version with no problems.  It's a clearance issue with the xbox 360.  Read Grumpys explanation for full details.


----------



## IEMCrazy

Quote: 





robscix said:


> Strange he would say that as the USB receiver on the Bifrost is said to be on of the best true USB 2.0 Asynchronous receivers.
> As you said though, it depends alot on implementation.


 

 In Jason's on words in the Bifrost FAQ regarding saying it's one of the best USB 2.0 implementations "It's like saying the meal was good considering the chef could only work with McDonald's Hamburgers" (rewriting that from memory, not cut & paste.)
   
  Meaning, in *his* (and Mike's) opinion, having the best that USB 2.0 has to offer isn't saying much considering at its best, USB is still garbage compared to S/PDIF.   Note the emphasis on *his* opinion to avoid a flame war....there are plenty on these boards that disagree and feel a good USB setup, even on Bifrost is superior.
   
  However when the guy who's selling it is adamant that the included options are still much superior to buying the $100 add-on, I have to give him credit for putting his money where his mouth is 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  And knowing the flaws of the USB protocol at large....though I haven't ABX'ed the differences, and chose to follow his advice from the FAQ and not buy the USB option since I didn't need USB in my setup anyway, I can easily see the kinds of problems USB is capable of....most of them originate at the transmitter and there's not a thing the receiver can do about it.   USB is ironically more cable dependent than analog IMO.  It drops, and delivers out of order, crazy amounts of packets on a poor cable.  For data devices it's fine, it can just re-send the packet.  For real-time...good luck. Things do improve with proper cabling.  The part that's funny there is because of the "it's digital so it doesn't matter" mentality, USB is the last place people look toward good cabling, when in reality it's one of the most important places for it due to the nature of the protocol and it's poor fault tolerance.
   
  Still, either side of the argument aside, I still think USB was an odd place to try to shove audio to begin with.   It's a head-scratcher of a protocol.  "We already have two complete standards of transmitting digital audio signals, designed from the ground up to transmit digital audio signals.   Let's replace it with a way to send digital audio over a data connection!"  If it weren't for the rise of the laptop, I'm convinced "USB Audio" is a word we'd never have heard for more than a year or two.  Really, what modern motherboard doesn't come with optical, coax, or both even without dedicated sound cards (not that motherboard audio is a good thing mind you, but you get the idea.)


----------



## IEMCrazy

Quote: 





rebel975 said:


> He may not have known that Spdif was being discussed, as what he says makes sense in other digital mediums (ones that have copper wires/electricity).


 


  Err...digital *does* have copper wires with conventional RCA, BNC jacks and all: Coaxial S/PDIF is still the primary means of S/PDIF.   Somehow everyone starts thinking optical/Toslink whenever someone mentions the protocol.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




   The S/PDIF protocol is the same regardless of electrical or optical transmission mechanism.  It's just that optical cables are usually so poor until you get to glass....which is disappointingly fragile.
   
  My digital cable to my Bifrost right now is a Blue Jeans cable....it's actually a Belden digital video cable (1505F I believe?)... It's a custom job in two parts.  Two cables with an RCA right angle on each end, and a BNC connector with a coupler in the center.  It lets me reliably decouple the source from the DAC to move it around and stow it safely without worrying about weakening the connectors (BNC's bayonet is designed for frequent removal.)
   
  Very much electrical over copper, thank you very much! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Optical/Toslink: it's not affected by RFI/EMI at all, which is the major point of the protocol (though as Rob pointed out above, the transmitter itself *is*) but photons are still analog, they're just not prone to distortion from interference.  They can be distorted by cable fiber deformities though.  Jworl's point is valid though.  It does take some heavy damage to the signal for it to mistake a peak for a valley, and it's actually easier for the jitter/timing/deformities of cable in optical to damage the signal than in copper coax unless you're running cable in a high interference environment like near/inside computer equipment, across power lines and/or transformers, other AV equipment (especially video processing),  etc.


----------



## judmarc

Quote: 





jworl said:


> Not trying to come across as pretentious, but I (like many others on here) would like some clarification.
> 
> "The digital audio chain begins when an analog audio signal is first sampled, and then (for pulse-code modulation, the usual form of digital audio) it is converted into binary signals—‘on/off’ pulses—which are stored as binary electronic, magnetic, or optical signals, rather than as continuous time, continuous level electronic or electromechanical signals."
> source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_audio


 
   
  The key is the wording "_stored as_ binary electronic, magnetic, or optical signals...."  But when this information - stored optically as "pits" and "lands" on CDs, or as electromagnetic 1s and 0s in computer files - is _transmitted_ via a cable, complete and instantaneous variation from one to zero or the reverse is physically impossible.  Thus the signal is not a perfect square wave, but has a rise and fall time - i.e., it is analog.  The receiver takes amplitudes above a "zero crossing" point as representing ones, and below that point as representing zeros.  Thus even small variations in the signal can alter "zero crossing" times and show up as jitter.  See for example page 3 of http://pdfserv.maxim-ic.com/arpdf/AppNotes/3hfan402.pdf - "Jitter is essentially variation in the zero crossing times of the data eye."


----------



## judmarc

Quote:


wkhanna said:


> [size=medium]Whoa!!!!!!![/size]
> 
> *[size=medium]My sincere apologies![/size]*


 


 Hey, man, anyone from around the Three Rivers is OK with me.  (Pitt alum.)  Great town, which not enough people realize.


----------



## Rebel975

Quote: 





iemcrazy said:


> Err...digital *does* have copper wires with conventional RCA, BNC jacks and all: Coaxial S/PDIF is still the primary means of S/PDIF.   Somehow everyone starts thinking optical/Toslink whenever someone mentions the protocol.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

  
  I thought we _were_ discussing the optical/toslink here? Hence my comment about not having copper lines/electricity. I guess I goofed. Sorry.


----------



## jworl

Quote: 





judmarc said:


> The key is the wording "_stored as_ binary electronic, magnetic, or optical signals...."  But when this information - stored optically as "pits" and "lands" on CDs, or as electromagnetic 1s and 0s in computer files - is _transmitted_ via a cable, complete and instantaneous variation from one to zero or the reverse is physically impossible.  Thus the signal is not a perfect square wave, but has a rise and fall time - i.e., it is analog.  The receiver takes amplitudes above a "zero crossing" point as representing ones, and below that point as representing zeros.  Thus even small variations in the signal can alter "zero crossing" times and show up as jitter.  See for example page 3 of http://pdfserv.maxim-ic.com/arpdf/AppNotes/3hfan402.pdf - "Jitter is essentially variation in the zero crossing times of the data eye."


 

 Ah, I see. That makes sense. Now that you mention it, the following example seems like a great visual for this transmission:
   

   
  The above photo (source, again-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_audio) is, supposedly, a 4-bit example, so I imagine a 16 or 24-bit stream will provide _much_ smoother in transition.
   
  Is there a standard amplitude value that receivers use as the zero crossing point? It seems like there should be a standard. Otherwise, resulting output would be all over the place, right?
   
  edit-- I've read over the PDF you supplied, and it seems to be a bit over my head. Guess I don't have the base knowledge necessary to completely understand. Oh well.





 thanks for taking the time to explain


----------



## pyramid6

Quote: 





jworl said:


> Ah, I see. That makes sense. Now that you mention it, the following example seems like a great visual for this transmission:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
   
  That's not the same thing he was talking about.
   

  Here's a pretty picture. If you did 10101010.  Expected should be square.  Because of noise, etc, you hope you get something as nice as the actual.  It could be worse.
  
  Edit: added picture.
   
  Edit2:  Don't forget the clock.  It's important too.


----------



## jworl

Quote:


pyramid6 said:


> That's not the same thing he was talking about.
> 
> Edit: I can't find any images.


 

 Really? Damn... I'm just going to sit quietly in the corner now.


----------



## Rebel975

Quote: 





jworl said:


> Quote:
> 
> Really? Damn... I'm just going to sit quietly in the corner now.


 


  You and me both.


----------



## pyramid6

I wouldn't worry about it. It is complicate.
  Basically, S/PDIF can be better than USB, but not in all cases. Better digital cables can matter, but only to a point.
  I think the consensus is S/PDIF Coax > S/PDIF Optical > async USB > USB.


----------



## IEMCrazy

Quote: 





judmarc said:


> The key is the wording "_stored as_ binary electronic, magnetic, or optical signals...."  But when this information - stored optically as "pits" and "lands" on CDs, or as electromagnetic 1s and 0s in computer files - is _transmitted_ via a cable, complete and instantaneous variation from one to zero or the reverse is physically impossible.  Thus the signal is not a perfect square wave, but has a rise and fall time - i.e., it is analog.  The receiver takes amplitudes above a "zero crossing" point as representing ones, and below that point as representing zeros.  Thus even small variations in the signal can alter "zero crossing" times and show up as jitter.  See for example page 3 of http://pdfserv.maxim-ic.com/arpdf/AppNotes/3hfan402.pdf - "Jitter is essentially variation in the zero crossing times of the data eye."


 

 Excellent basic verbal explanation!
   
  And great pictures from the others.   I second the note of the clock.  And that's where USB tends to fall through the floor the worst...the host clock handling is brutal.  A perfect world would not have USB audio, and Pro Tools would not have DR compression as an available option... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  I have great respect for the "measurements" crowd and I mostly quietly snicker at the cable upgrader & placebo crowd, however there are moments that the measurements crowd is just as bad with myth and superstition as the cables crowd.  Digital audio is one of them.  The age-old "it's just ones and zeros, it can't go wrong, cables, and source "quality" don't matter unlike analog" that is regurgitated is a painful over-simplification of digital audio.  The trouble with interference still exists though is greatly reduced, (or eliminated but replaced by other problems in the case of optical) and a whole host of timing and jitter problems that don't exist in analog get introduced.   The word of the day regarding digital is "robust".  The data contained in a digital signal is much more robust than an analog signal.  But data can still be damaged or out of order on the receiving side, and an out of order packet is just a dropped packet that the DAC must "guess" at the replacement for.
   
  The troubles with coax are the same as the troubles with analog coax: Interference, shielding issues, etc produce that nasty looking image seen above.  The troubles with optical can be even worse.  On paper its a great protocol, but imagine what the light looks like after being transmitted through optically imperfect refractive polymer tubes, then reviewed from an optically imperfect lens on the receiver.  Plus whatever noise the LED diode may or may not generate on the analog reconstruction side.  The plastics used in this stuff may be "optical" but for the price of a toslink receiver and cable, it's not exactly the same stuff used on the Hubble 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  All of that leads to that broken image above which gives a great idea of what a problem jitter is (thanks, Pyramid!) To explain that further: Which part of that messed up plateau marks the receipt of a sample? If part of the plateau is above the threshold and part isn't, which part is the sample....or is it two samples sent too fast?   An imperfect clock will play with the wrong pacing (maybe too soon one one peak, too late on another peak, then too late again on the next which makes it sound normal, etc.  Considering it's happening 44,100 times a second (on redbook),  we can't hear the nanosecond hesitations or accelerations, but we can perceive something off about the sound, usually perceived as distortion or muddiness.  A good clock will read exactly the same portion of the peak every time.  But what if that portion of the plateau was the damaged part that dropped below threshold?  Dropped a one.  Alien interference (coax)? Added a one.  In either case, you just altered the sample by a bit, and not in the linear way that analog gets distorted by by a random change in the sample.  One bit won't turn James Taylor into Otis Taylor, but you get enough of these altered bytes and it affects the quality of the sound.   USB adds the mess of a sloppy host clock and, cable pending, the potential for out of order packets, so you receive one sample before or after another.  Thankfully they're numbered, so it won't start play in random order and sound like a bad acid trip at a Willie Nelson concert, but when the DAC sees a missing part of the sequence it just has to improvise.  And when it finally GETS that missing packet, it has to throw it away because the time for that one already passed.  Two errors for the price of one.   So I can see where the dislike for USB comes from.  But on a good implementation on a reliable cable, it works just fine.


----------



## mab1376

I think its interesting how different mediums have a different flavor or signature if you will.
   
  To start I picked up a Spider brand coax cable from Newegg for $23.
   
  I'm curious to see how a silver cable will compare to my cable which is 100% copper.
   
  Personally I don't know how s/pdif differs from textbook digital (ones and zeros). But I do find it interesting how someone on youtube just used a wire hanger as a coax cable and it seemingly worked fine.
   
  I've always been a firm believer that analog audio cables make a difference, but where is the limit? anyone who spends multi thousand dollars for a Nordost cable for an almost inaudible difference is insane in my book.


----------



## wkhanna

Quote: 





rebel975 said:


> You and me both.


 


  You mean us three


----------



## Kremer930

I have had a bit of a play over the past 6 months since getting the Bifrost and initially I liked the USB as my Mac could upsample via Puremusic to 24/192.  But over time with more thought and listening put in and some changes to a quality 75ohm coax cable and a Glass fibre optic cable I now tend to use the optical out of my Mac, non-upsampled, to the Bifrost.
   
  I dont have coax out of my Mac and can only feed the Bifrost Coax from an Onkyo ND-S1 dock.  This then limits the max sample rate to 16/48 due to the ipod but I am very surprised that when comparing optical out of the dock to Coax out that the Coax sounds fuller in the bottom end and a little smoother in the highs.  The Optical is noticeably brighter sounding.
   
  As other people have said  before, non of the implementations on the Bifrost are bad but when we are a group focussed on sound quality then Coax should have the greatest potential.


----------



## weitn

Glad to received my Bifrost yesterday. My current setup is laptop (usb) -> Bifrost -> Lyr -> HD650. Initial impression, lack of mid and lack of bass. My Lyr already has more than 100+ hours of burn in. My older setup, laptop (usb) -> Fiio E17(DAC)+L7 -> Lyr -> HD650 sounds better. Will let Bifrost burn for another 50 or more hours and will hear how it sounds.


----------



## Maxvla

Give it some time (brain burn in, not dac burn in). It will sneak up on you. Listen to the frost setup for a few days then go back to your Fiio setup and decide if you still prefer the Fiio. My guess is you will find the mids/bass less controlled and less detailed.


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





twifosp said:


> What are everyone's thoughts on USB vs Optical?


 

 There are some good optical implementations and some bad ones.  The worst one I've heard had some fruit on it.  Could have been the 3.5mm adapter, the fixed 3.5mm cable or implementation, not sure.  Tried multiple cables on that piece of gear.  I've heard optical that sounded better and worse than USB so who knows.  I get better consistency w/ coax than optical so kinda gave up on it.
   
  Compared to analog, the digital domain is a Cambodian minefield in the deep jungle laced with punji sticks and tree swinging aboriginals puffing curare laced blow darts at you.  Anyone thinking it's just a '1' and a '0' probably stays up at night just to make sure the sun rises in the morning.  Digital can cross that gauntlet but it's extremely complicated and it's hard to say if everyone will make it through okay.


----------



## Slab

I received my Bifrost yesterday. I didn't bother with USB since all of my sources have S/PDIF anyway. I can confirm that the LED does differ from the one on my Valhalla purchased a few months  ago. The Bifrost LED is far brighter and a bit of a greenish tint to it while the Valhalla has a pleasing frosted white look. It's no big deal to me because I'd rather let the sounds do the talking but it is worth noting. I didn't find the Bifrost/Valhalla/HD650 bass-light but I didn't get a chance to test it out thoroughly.


----------



## wkhanna

I don't want to take the thread OT, but glad you enjoyed your time here, judmarc.
  If you ever come thru, you must stop by our home. We are in the Mt Washington part of the city.
  
  Quote: 





judmarc said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> Hey, man, anyone from around the Three Rivers is OK with me.  (Pitt alum.)  Great town, which not enough people realize.


----------



## mab1376

after about 15 hours burn in last night i did some listening and it sounds super detailed, a little lacking in bass though. At least compared to my iBasso D6 I was using which has dual WM8740's.
   
  It's been running for 24 hours now, by the time I have a chance it will be up to 38 hours burn-in. It does get pretty warm, so hopefully that analog output stage is getting a workout.


----------



## IEMCrazy

Quote: 





mab1376 said:


> I think its interesting how different mediums have a different flavor or signature if you will.
> 
> To start I picked up a Spider brand coax cable from Newegg for $23.
> 
> ...


 

 Cabling has such huge debates going for it.   To me its sensible that a different conductor material (silver) with a different conductivity measurement at different frequencies could easily affect sound, but the differences between the same conductor materials seem wildly inflated.  My feeling is, the cable crowd isn't making it up entirely, by definition I'd think different gauges in different configurations with different base metals, with different terminations (attatched questionably in some cases) may very slightly affect the flow of current, allow RFI in more at some frequencies than others, allow leakage of certain frequencies more readily than others.   I also think some of what the cable crowd claims as "warmer this" or "detailed that" are actually flaws in the cable where certain frequencies are leaking, more RFI leaking in, or poorly made terminations changing the impedance.  Though a good portion of "designer" cables are, inside, actually the same Belden cable across brands with pretty sleeves and terminators on them....  They cables are good, no doubt....but they're worth $40 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  Flaws or not, I think there can be "differences" (defects...differences...whatever) in cables, but in most cases (silver aside maybe) the difference is so miniscule that one wouldn't notice it unless they were sitting around ABXing, and one isn't definitively better.  And for the money spent on such a cable, FAR wider differences/improvements could almost always be achieved via changing other equipment.  If cables were $20, sure, why not.  But for  $200+ cable for two channels, and a $200 power cable, and a $300 headphone cable, you could just buy a DAC1 and be done with it using your old decent cables 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  The coat hanger test has been done many times and always works well in ABX.  Why shouldn't it?  It's basically an insanely high gauge solid core aluminum conductor.....  I imagine it could be "bright" though since its running unshielded.  But with  a conductor like that, I doubt you need much shielding unless you're sticking a wifi antenna next to it.
   
  Then there's the old Stereophile article about the trade show where a famous engineer was demoing some very pricey speakers across from a $1000 cable booth.  He had orange Black & Decker extension cord connecting the speakers.  He said it looked good and sounded fine to them. 
   
  But for those with top-tier systems, and you have nothing left to buy in the hardware realm, and still want to try changing the sound....I imagine cable changes could actually work.  But it's worse diminishing returns than LCD-3's.  Or Theils for that matter. 
   
  My digital cable is my first order from BJC after considering them numerous times, but I've become a big fan...it's that center line between value and performance.   You don't get designer stuff claiming to improve your clarity and tighten your bass, you just get cable with a printed spec, outdoor, underground, and overhead strung rated, designed for studios and cable companies, that's been tested to successfully carry all required frequencies.  It's rugged, heavily shielded, and is probably inside more than a few $100+ cables (No joke, BJC made some toslink cables for Audioquest, I remember they were selling them off dirt cheap a few years ago at BJC because of overstock, or rejection, or something.  They don't use glass though, only some high-end Toshiba polymer)  I figure if the stuff is good enough to have been used in the recording of probably half the albums in my collection, it's good enough to use for playback too 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
   
  What it isn't is pretty.  At all.  It's industrial cable with industrial terminators, and it looks the part.  Thankfully that look goes very well with the Schiit minimalism!  I'm still considering replacing my Audioquest Y-splitters (fairly priced, believe it or not, I bought them because they were 6" and I was planning on running an IEM amp out of the Bifrost originally) with some custom BJC too, just to clean up my nest of cables and get a uniform industrial look.
   
  Quote: 





kremer930 said:


> I have had a bit of a play over the past 6 months since getting the Bifrost and initially I liked the USB as my Mac could upsample via Puremusic to 24/192.  But over time with more thought and listening put in and some changes to a quality 75ohm coax cable and a Glass fibre optic cable I now tend to use the optical out of my Mac, non-upsampled, to the Bifrost.
> 
> I dont have coax out of my Mac and can only feed the Bifrost Coax from an Onkyo ND-S1 dock.  This then limits the max sample rate to 16/48 due to the ipod but I am very surprised that when comparing optical out of the dock to Coax out that the Coax sounds fuller in the bottom end and a little smoother in the highs.  The Optical is noticeably brighter sounding.
> 
> As other people have said  before, non of the implementations on the Bifrost are bad but when we are a group focussed on sound quality then Coax should have the greatest potential.


 

  
  The type of distortion caused by the actual cabling, unlike analog, wouldn't affect just the lows or highs (that happens in analog becuase those are the frequencies that push at the tolerances of the cable on either side.)  The coax cables are still frequency dependent, but a lost bit doesn't affect the audible high or low specifically, the dropped bits are random so any part of the frequency spectrum could be equally affected (meaning high frequency is used to determine if any bit is on or off....mid, high, or low...unlike analog where high frequency is a 1:1 for the treble frequency it should reproduce.  Same with optical, though for different reasons than frequency leakage (namely, refraction/reflection in the cable) That's the curse of digital.  it cures the problem of analog that the extreme highs and extreme lows have a habit of getting lost or distorted.  But it creates the new problem that the entire frequency spectrum now becomes subject to loss and distortion equally 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I would suspect if optical is brighter and coax is darker, then either your ear preceives the higher distortion as affecting the lows (human brain trying to piece together something that's "not quite right") or something else is happening to the data on the source before it's S/PDIF encoded that's different depending on output. 

  
  Quote: 





weitn said:


> Glad to received my Bifrost yesterday. My current setup is laptop (usb) -> Bifrost -> Lyr -> HD650. Initial impression, lack of mid and lack of bass. My Lyr already has more than 100+ hours of burn in. My older setup, laptop (usb) -> Fiio E17(DAC)+L7 -> Lyr -> HD650 sounds better. Will let Bifrost burn for another 50 or more hours and will hear how it sounds.


 
   
  Quote: 





maxvla said:


> Give it some time (brain burn in, not dac burn in). It will sneak up on you. Listen to the frost setup for a few days then go back to your Fiio setup and decide if you still prefer the Fiio. My guess is you will find the mids/bass less controlled and less detailed.


 

 +1.   The Bifrost is a very detailed, transparent, clean DAC.  It's not the most resolving in the world, but it's light years ahead of E17 in terms of resolution and transparency.  I often feel bad that I pay attention to all my gear, but endlessly forget about poor Bifrost being there at all.  It does its job and gets out of the way so well, it's very easy to forget it exists at all.  Which is the point of a DAC.  The E17 isn't as highly resolving, isn't as good at separation, and is probably adding a warm color to the sound.  With the Bifrost you're hearing your cans and your amp/tubes cleanly for the first time.  There's a good chance once you listen more you'll hear more detail you were missing before and realize you were mistaking clarity for thinness.  If you still like a more colored sound, it's time for tube rolling that Lyr! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  The Bifrost will really let you hear the difference of each tube.
   
  I'll say, though that, to me, stock tubes in Lyr, + Bifrost + HD650 is a great combination and is definitely not lacking in bass.  At all.  (Some would argue it has too much bass and mid-bass.)  The bass in that combo is the same as my carefully tuned 12" Velodyne sub as calibrated in my speaker setup....any more would be true bloat and lose its musicality.)  Remember: In sub setup, you shouldn't actually know the sub is there...it should blend with the speakers completely.  Same applies to bass integration in well calibrated headphone gear. 
   
  Give it time, but if you still like a certain coloration, you can always change tubes or add EQ.  Either way the Bifrost should be outresolving and out-timing that E17 by far.  The Fiio gear is a great value in its price range (I use an E11 with my IEMs), but the Bifrost is still in a very different class. 
  
   
  Quote: 





anaxilus said:


> Compared to analog, the digital domain is a Cambodian minefield in the deep jungle laced with punji sticks and tree swinging aboriginals puffing curare laced blow darts at you.  Anyone thinking it's just a '1' and a '0' probably stays up at night just to make sure the sun rises in the morning.  Digital can cross that gauntlet but it's extremely complicated and it's hard to say if everyone will make it through okay.


 
   
  LOL That has got to be the best description of digital I've ever heard 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  When it comes to digital, when you finally understand what digital is about, it makes one wonder why we ever left analog....it's so much simper and, strangely, more reliable.   Of course, with analog there's no chance of ever reproducing the original, and there's virtually no possibility of getting the high and low freq back as it was.  With digital at least there's a chance to get close to it. And digital still has the far better noise floor...
   
  Everyone confuses digital with data, 1 & 0....which perhaps calling it "digital" was the error.  If digital were 1's and 0's that would be fine. The true trouble and confusion with "digital audio" is that it's not actually digital.....it's plain old analog audio in transmission being used to represent digital data, but on the receiving end it doesn't just amplify the signal, but first has to reconstruct the signal as data, then convert it to plain old analog, then amplify it.
   
  The best real-world analogy I can think of would be transmitting MP3's via morse code over signal radio.  Yes the actual DATA is digital.  But you're transmitting it in an analog way.  IF one person is standing in a monsoon tapping the byte values of the MP3 into a radio, and the other person is listening on another radio and entering the byte sequence into a computer, when you play the MP3 file back, will it be a 100% digital recreation even though it was built from digital data?  No.  Some of the bytes would get lost by the guy tapping into the radio in a monsoon (interferance at the point of transmission), some would get re-ordered (transposition/ out of order packets), some would get lost over the radio waves (interferance, in-cable damage/loss, garbling on the radio, etc.), and some would be operator error buy the guy entering the values into the computer (interferance at the point of receipt/lens issues on the optical receiver, etc.) 
   
  In a well set up digital setup, most of the values will be exactly as they left the transmitter...but almost never will all of them be. 
   
  Fun fact: This very message as it's being sent to the H-F server is experiencing the same problem.  All digital transmission over wire is analog.  All will get lost and degraded packets.  The difference is for data protocols the recipient side keeps checking the data to make sure they're in the right order, and that it's not missing any as it reconstructs each bit of the message, and re-requests anything that didn't make it through.  Audio is on-the-fly, so no re-requesting, waiting, and queuing can take place unless the idea of a DAC were to be redesigned with on-board buffering, etc.  Which means it would play back with a delay as well (and we'd need a new protocol.)  And adding buffering, volatile storage, packet resequencing etc adds new problems, new chances for errors, and new sources of noise/RFI.


----------



## judmarc

Enough lost bits through a digital cable would sound like record skips or static - they won't affect frequency response at all, you just won't get any sound for whatever number of microseconds your lost data constitutes.
   
  There are three aspects of digital cables I can think of that affect the sound of the system, short of actual data dropouts.  I'm sure there are more, but these are the ones I've read about:
   
  - Jitter.  Everyone's heard about this one, of course.  This will affect S/PDIF (coax and optical) and "adaptive" USB more than async USB, because async USB minimizes the effects of everything preceding the clock in the async receiver (the DAC or an async USB-to-S/PDIF converter).
   
  - Electromagnetic noise and radio frequency interference.  This is a big one that digital cables have in common with analog cables, and that no one tends to think of.  To the extent short analog interconnects don't have gross frequency response errors, short digital interconnects will make just about as much difference to system sound as short analog interconnects due to this.  This is the primary advantage optical has over coax or USB.  Coax can have an advantage over USB here since USB often carries power in the same cable as signal and ground.  Noise and interference get into the analog side of the system through ground, and can also impact the sound by affecting the DAC's clock, causing jitter.
   
  - Bandwidth.  Coax and USB have greater bandwidth than Toslink optical cables.  (This I believe, but am not certain, is one reason why Toslink outputs and/or inputs are often limited to 96kHz.)
   
  So this is why the particular implementation means so much regarding the sound quality of a given system, and why it's impossible to say one type of digital connection will always be superior.  It depends on what problems exist in your system, and which connection has the advantage in dealing with those problems.  If jitter is a problem, then async USB deals most effectively with that.  If you have a low-jitter source but EMI and RFI are problems, then optical deals best with that.  If you have a Mac, whose optical output is limited to 24/96 at most, and you want to play 176.4 or 192kHz files or material you've upsampled to those resolutions with your software player (someone here gave the example of Pure Music; I use Audirvana Plus for the same thing), then you've got to go with coax or USB.


----------



## Newk Yuler

I'm glad to see the Bifrost async USB versus S/PDIF issue has widened in this thread.  I have a Bifrost without the USB option because I didn't need it, feeding the Bifrost from an Empirical Audio Off-Ramp 3 on coax.  (Pound for pound, that's a $1000 adaptive USB to S/PDIF reclocker-converter from a few years ago on a cutting edge $350 budget DAC.)  Empirical Audio products are unquestionably top tier audiophile hardware.  IMHO, Steve Nugent is an engineering genius when it comes to jitter issues in computer audiophile equipment.
   
  The performance of S/PDIF in the Bifrost is going to be dependent on the quality of the source and the cable you use.  There has been a lot of discussion on jitter from source equipment and noisy computers in recent years.  Discussion about USB to S/PDIF converters, adaptive USB and async USB.  Those of you wanting to connect your computers to a Bifrost by S/PDIF might consider searching back through threads here on Head-Fi and other major audio forum sites for the most effective ways to bridge a computer to a DAC.  There's a lot to read.  Simply running a cable from a computer's S/PDIF out to the S/PDIF input on a DAC usually isn't one of them.
   
  I expect the Bifrost's async USB option to provide a "field leveler" of sorts.  People who claim the Bifrost's USB to sound better for them likely means they have quality issues with the S/PDIF connection.  IMHO, I expect better performance in most cases using the async USB option.  You won't know one way or the other unless you get a Bifrost with the USB module and compare the connections.  I don't say that in spite of Schiit's claims.  S/PDIF will perform better than the async USB option when the S/PDIF source (and cable) are better (implementation, lower jitter, lower source noise).
   
  Async USB implementation can vary in performance too.  There's been no discussion about Schiit's async USB design/performance and how well it performs against other async USB to S/PDIF products.  That's certainly not to slight Schiit's implementation.  There's simply no reference.
   
  I asked Steve Nugent if he had an opinion on the CS8416 S/PDIF receiver as a DAC component relative to Empirical Audio products before I decided to purchase the Bifrost.  (It's what the Bifrost uses.)  I didn't want it to be an issue when running a Bifrost behind an Off-Ramp.  Steve has a lot of knowledge in proper S/PDIF implementation and he's modified a lot of equipment for customers.  He said the 8416 is "okay".  I can testify that it seems to work well with the Off-Ramp 3.  I use an Audioquest VDM-5 silver coax cable between them.
   
  IMHO and FWIW, the Bifrost is a _killer_ DAC value.  I liked everything I read about its brazen simple and straight forward design.  I needed a new DAC that performed properly and would be running most of the day every day on an ambient music system in my home office.  I'll certainly be putting the 5 year warranty to the test.  The Bifrost has given this system a new and better life.


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





newk yuler said:


> Steve has a lot of knowledge in proper S/PDIF implementation and he's modified a lot of equipment for customers.  He said the 8416 is "okay".


 

 Care to elaborate more on better or worse alternatives.  Perhaps if you have a link you can share or PM that does well to compare the various implementations.  I'm personally getting fed up w/ the inconsistencies in various SPDIF implementations so I need to look deeper and get a better grasp on wth is going on in some of these units compared to others.


----------



## judmarc

_There's been no discussion about Schiit's async USB design/performance and how well it performs against other async USB to S/PDIF products._
   
  I can give you one lone data point, at least.  The Musical Fidelity V-Link (async USB-S/PDIF converter) through a $300+ coax cable (Omega Mikro Zephyr) into the Bifrost's coax input was _far_ inferior to the Bifrost's async USB input.  The V-Link cost about $160, vs. $100 to add USB to the Bifrost.  Factoring in the box and non-USB parts for the V-Link, I'm supposing parts cost for just its async USB implementation is roughly equal to or lower than for the Bifrost.
   
  Usually where audio is concerned I tend to think that less is more, so before I'd add a converter box and additional cable in front of the Bifrost I'd want to be reasonably sure its USB implementation was quite a bit better than the Bifrost's.


----------



## ben_r_

Anyone compared the Bitfrost to the NuForce HDP's DAC alone with both into an Asgard or Valhalla and care to comment?
   
  Im wondering if a Bitfrost/Asgard or Bitfrost/Valhalla would be a noticeable upgrade from a Nuforce HDP with Sigma 11. Cans would be the HD650's.


----------



## Misterrogers

Can't speak to the amp part of the chain, but I found Bifrost to be a step up in neutrality, detail and extension from HDP.
  
  Quote: 





ben_r_ said:


> Anyone compared the Bitfrost to the NuForce HDP's DAC alone with both into an Asgard or Valhalla and care to comment?
> 
> Im wondering if a Bitfrost/Asgard or Bitfrost/Valhalla would be a noticeable upgrade from a Nuforce HDP with Sigma 11. Cans would be the HD650's.


----------



## ninjikiran

All arguments aside, I am happy with Jriver/Asio/Juli@/RCA Spdif.  Finally an asio interface that just works(always had  trouble with foobars), no problems at all.  Granted I use two sound cards and julia is simply a digital output for music and non-dolby home theater.


----------



## rubenpp

Quote: 





misterrogers said:


> Thought I'd share my experience with cabling Bifrost. I replaced my work MSII+ with Bifrost, and used a generic optical spdif for the connection. Sounded wonderful, though the very bottom seemed rolled off a bit. My Silflex glass optical cable arrived today, and that made a noticeable difference. The bottom end is there is with force, clarity and slam, with a slight improvement in clarity overall. Now this probably speaks mostly to the poor quality of the cable I was using - but I thought I'd mention it as others may have  a similar experience.


 


  Thanks i too will get the Slflex. Btw may I ask how did the Bifrost compare to the HRT MSII+?
   
  TIA


----------



## wkhanna

I am using the Silflex Toslink.
  It's 10' to make the run from my NAS in one room to my main system in the living room.
  I have no complaints, but have not tried any other types of hook-up.
  I can say with certainty that the combo is out-performing my Cambridge Audio 640 v2, which basically is the same DAC set as the MagicDac uses, AFAIK.
  Bifrost fed ASIO4all via optical is far more musical than CA 640 CDp.
  All all who have heard my system agree.


----------



## M-13

Thought I would put his out there since it mentions AudioQuest and we've been discussing cables. Not saying this is right or wrong, but just another data point for people to consider:
   
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38731070/ns/technology_and_science-tech_and_gadgets/t/buyer-beware-misleading-hdmi-cable-labels-suggest-needless-upgrades/


----------



## Anaxilus

Not much of an argument made if any at all.  Just a claim like the very one's he attacks.  All HDMI cables are the same but there ARE high speed and low speed specs. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  So Mr. Merson, you claim they are the same, then show us your measurements that they measure the same.  Typical MSNBC journalism w/ _zero _analysis. 
   
  Rather ninja like post btw.


----------



## M-13

I guess it was... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
  Quote: 





anaxilus said:


> Rather ninja like post btw.


----------



## M-13

But honestly I'm confused about this whole mess. I get the part about digital signals being transmitted via analog waves and the potential for error, but I wonder how common a wave disruption is. Is it 1 bit per million or 1 bit per thousand? Wouldn't the USB transmitter/receiver play a much bigger part than the cable? Other than proper RF shielding, what else can USB cable do?
   
  Also, as anyone who studied marketing knows if I create one type of shampoo it wouldn't do as well as creating six different kinds and pricing them in a ladder. The middle shampoo would be perceived as offering the highest amount of value/dollar and be the best seller.
   
  Another random thought I had was that people download music from HDtracks. I'm wondering how many non-audiophile grade cables the data travels through, jumping from one server to another before finally coming home... If I store my music in an external USB hard drive do I need to get a high quality cable for that as well?


----------



## grokit

It's too bad that people using search engines to find information about the Bifrost won't find this thread, perhaps the OP should change or add Bifrost to the title of it.


----------



## woody88

hello guys and gals,
   
  in a bit of a pickle here, and would like some assistance if anyone can offer any thoughts on this. I received my Lyr/Bifrost combo today. I got it hooked up. My bifrost is the non USB version. I have a Rotel CD player fed into the BF via coax, and Pure I-20 fed to BF via Toslink. Every time if I were to skip a track or forward a track, the bifrost makes a clicking sound. It is very noticeable. I kept thinking if I have a defective unit. So for the next step, I used a generic coax digital cable to use on the Rotel CD player. Same thing.
   
  next, I figured why not use the pure I-20 to test it. So I used the generic cable fed to the I-20 to BF via coax, and no clicking noise when I skip tracks on the iPod.
   
  weird, I thought, could it be I have a bad CD player? so I grabbed another CD player that I have laying around, but have not used in some time. It's an Arcam CD player. Used the generic cable fed via coax to BF, same clicking noise, although instead of multiple clicking noise, it's a single clicking noise. but the noise is still there. Switched back to my regular coax cable that I normally use, same thing. While I was switching from generic to aftermarket coax cable, the BF even died on me for like 3 mins. meaning there is no response of the front power light when I toggle the on/off switch in back. But as of now, it is back into working condition.
   
  I don't think I have a defective CD player, as I have tried 2 of them. And don't think I have bad coax cable, I simply cannot explain this clicking noise. does anyone else that use coax from CD player to BF has this issue? any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance!


----------



## Maxvla

The clicking is normal. It's the sync lock that is clicking.


----------



## ocswing

Quote: 





m-13 said:


> But honestly I'm confused about this whole mess. I get the part about digital signals being transmitted via analog waves and the potential for error, but I wonder how common a wave disruption is. Is it 1 bit per million or 1 bit per thousand? Wouldn't the USB transmitter/receiver play a much bigger part than the cable? Other than proper RF shielding, what else can USB cable do?
> 
> Also, as anyone who studied marketing knows if I create one type of shampoo it wouldn't do as well as creating six different kinds and pricing them in a ladder. The middle shampoo would be perceived as offering the highest amount of value/dollar and be the best seller.
> 
> Another random thought I had was that people download music from HDtracks. I'm wondering how many non-audiophile grade cables the data travels through, jumping from one server to another before finally coming home... If I store my music in an external USB hard drive do I need to get a high quality cable for that as well?


 
   
  To answer your question about storage transfer I'll just point out that it's different than music playing. When transferring data over USB for storage (or downloading from the internet) it does a check to verify the integrity of data at the end of the transfer. So if a bad packet was sent then it's resent at the end so the file is whole. When using USB to a DAC for music playback it's streaming and does not have this error checking. Even if it did it wouldn't be able to send it in real time to make up for the bad packet and not lose time. Yes, the transmitter/receiver play a big part, but there is a part for the cable to play in music playback as well. Whether the differences are noticeable and how big a difference they make will vary among people, but digital playback is not as simple as some people make it out to be.


----------



## M-13

If you're talking about usb isochronous vs bulk transfer, then I'm aware of the differences. I'm still wondering about the bit disruption rate in a isochronous usb transfer and whether these differences can be attributed to poor cabling and if these errors are of a rate that can be heard by the human ear. But I guess this isn't the audio science forum. Just wanted to give people another data point since the arguments aren't black and white.


----------



## woody88

Thx for the reply. But does this happen to all DACs though? this is my first standalone dac, so I was wondering if this is something just happens to all DACs or just BF? and also excuse my lack of knowledge in all of this, but how come when I use coax from I-20 to BF, it would not make the clicking sound? I got to say the clicking sound is rather bothersome. No way around it? thx again.


----------



## Maxvla

It has to do with the stream starting and stopping. Each time it starts you hear a click and that locks the stream into a stable connection. The alternative is a solution that adapts on the fly but gives up some sound quality (most DACs). I don't know all the details, but this has been answered in this thread before by Jason Stoddard of Schiit.


----------



## Defiant00

Quote: 





woody88 said:


> Thx for the reply. But does this happen to all DACs though? this is my first standalone dac, so I was wondering if this is something just happens to all DACs or just BF? and also excuse my lack of knowledge in all of this, but how come when I use coax from I-20 to BF, it would not make the clicking sound? I got to say the clicking sound is rather bothersome. No way around it? thx again.


 


  What I recall Jason saying was that it's the muting relay for when it is not receiving a signal (certainly possible that Maxvla is correct, but that's what I seem to recall reading). I believe that some sources completely stop sending data between tracks for a split second and some keep sending something (silence) while switching, which is why for the former the Bifrost clicks twice (once when data stops and again when it restarts). Incidentally, using optical from my computer does the exact same thing.
   
  As far as other DACs, well, it depends entirely on the implementation, but it is certainly normal for the Bifrost.


----------



## woody88

Quote: 





defiant00 said:


> What I recall Jason saying was that it's the muting relay for when it is not receiving a signal (certainly possible that Maxvla is correct, but that's what I seem to recall reading). I believe that some sources completely stop sending data between tracks for a split second and some keep sending something (silence) while switching, which is why for the former the Bifrost clicks twice (once when data stops and again when it restarts). Incidentally, using optical from my computer does the exact same thing.
> 
> As far as other DACs, well, it depends entirely on the implementation, but it is certainly normal for the Bifrost.


 

 thanks for the explanation; as long as I know my unit is the not only one that does this, I can move past it and start breaking in the combo. thanks again defiant and maxvla.


----------



## mab1376

Quote: 





defiant00 said:


> What I recall Jason saying was that it's the muting relay for when it is not receiving a signal (certainly possible that Maxvla is correct, but that's what I seem to recall reading). I believe that some sources completely stop sending data between tracks for a split second and some keep sending something (silence) while switching, which is why for the former the Bifrost clicks twice (once when data stops and again when it restarts). Incidentally, using optical from my computer does the exact same thing.
> 
> As far as other DACs, well, it depends entirely on the implementation, but it is certainly normal for the Bifrost.


 


   
  From: Jason Stoddard [mailto:jason@schiit.com]
 Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2012 11:56 AM
 To: Mab1376
 Subject: Re: Order 1366 ETA
   
  Yep!
   
  Jason Stoddard
  Co-Founder
   
http://www.schiit.com
  (323) 230-0079
   
jason@schiit.com
   
   
   
   
  On Mar 6, 2012, at 7:30 AM, Mab1376 wrote:
   
  when using coax I hear a relay click when I switch songs. is that normal?
   
  I'm using ASIO4ALL through Foobar.


----------



## IEMCrazy

Quote: 





m-13 said:


> But honestly I'm confused about this whole mess. I get the part about digital signals being transmitted via analog waves and the potential for error, but I wonder how common a wave disruption is. Is it 1 bit per million or 1 bit per thousand? Wouldn't the USB transmitter/receiver play a much bigger part than the cable? Other than proper RF shielding, what else can USB cable do?
> 
> Also, as anyone who studied marketing knows if I create one type of shampoo it wouldn't do as well as creating six different kinds and pricing them in a ladder. The middle shampoo would be perceived as offering the highest amount of value/dollar and be the best seller.
> 
> Another random thought I had was that people download music from HDtracks. I'm wondering how many non-audiophile grade cables the data travels through, jumping from one server to another before finally coming home... If I store my music in an external USB hard drive do I need to get a high quality cable for that as well?


 
   
  When talking USB audio, there's one very, very key thing to remember about the cable that affects USB and nothing else.  Not only does it have signal and ground drain, but USB also carries power as well.   A 5v power line running inside the cable insulation in paralell to data signal cables for 100% of the length of the cable is messy indeed.   Now will all implementations be pushing power through the power pins at all times, maybe not.  For that reason, I'd say for USB the cable may actually be more important than it is for Coax.  Though the nature of optical makes the cabling very important too.  But of course if the transmitter is junk it doesn't really matter what the cable's doing!
   
  Note that I'm not advocating running about buying multi-hundred dollar exotic audiophile cable (sorry, sponsors!).  But there's still differences between the cheap stuff and the good stuff up through maybe the $40-60 price points for average lengths. 
   
  Even on BJC's page for the optical toslink cable they don't shamelessly tout superior audio via the cable and pretty flatly acknowledge that plastic optical is 2nd class....but at least we're selling first-rate 2nd class cable!
   
  Someone else already answered, but, yes, for actual data transfer the cable is irrelevant, USB, ethernet, etc. as far as data integrity.  The protocol verifies the receiving data and endlessly re-requests it until it gets it all and it all checks out.   And out-of-order doesn't matter, it resequences it all before it gets stored and finalized.  The only causality of bad cabling there is time.  Getting all the data right once takes only the time to send all the packets.  Getting them wrong and re-sending means it takes the time to send the packets, send a re-request command, receive the packets again, etc.  So over worst-case cabling (say, sitting on top of a high voltage transformer array?) you may end up sending the entire contents of the file quite a few times before it actually all arrives in tact.  So obviously for enterprise data use, great cabling is important to save on time/bandwidth/throughput/costs. But data integrity is never an issue.
   
  In audio it's all real-time.  An audio packet is sent, and audio packet is played back in a stream, like water through a hose.  It's loaded in the tube in sequence and pops out the speakers in that same sequence.  There's no time to re-request a missing packet, nor the ability to pause and wait for a missing one to arrive.  If it wasn't there when it's needed, it's just skipped and you move on. This is also how streaming video works over UDP.  A missed packet is just missed.  You'll probably see screen artifacts or color shifts as a result, but video is far, far, more complicated an affair with a lot of interpolation going on anyway.
   
  The audibility of such damage is a factor of the person listening, the amount of data loss, and probably which data was lost.   The digital stream plays back, in the case of redbook CD, 44,100 16-bit samples per second.   If a bit of the 16 bit word is modified, that means the frequency peak is now different than specified.  If the packet is missing or out of order, you simply miss one of those samples entirely...silence for 1/44100th of a second.  Can you audibly detect a single oscillation variation consisting of 1/44100th of a second?  Doubtful.   Can you detect specifically an audible peak variation even 10 times a second and identify which sample was affected?  Of course not.  However if it happens with enough frequency, (consider were talking about 44,100 samples per second.  Multiply that by the number of seconds on a CD and that's a lot of packets that can end up altered or missing) the human brain/ear is likely to pick that up, at least in comparison to something without missing data, as less clear (which it literally is if it's missing data), or "muddy" (details between frequencies may be missing), or with higher noise (distortion) etc.  Meaning no brain is fast enough to identify singular missing or altered oscillations, but it can pick up a collection of non-linear audio as something artificial or muffled/damaged.  It's, like lossy compression, all a human perception game in digital.   Can a human detect 1 1/44100th of a second error?  10, 100, 1000, 10000, 10000000? At what point does the brain realize something is wrong?  Digital is all about assuming/hoping the brain doesn't notice more and more missing pieces of reality until its in the extreme.   Kind of like politics 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  But the notion of "improve your bass" or "hear clearer treble" from a digital cable is a preposterous amalgamation of analog signaling theory mixed with a little reality of human perception noticing high and low more easily than mid damage even when all are equally damaged (the tolerances of OUR internal signal bio-cable specs...).   Analog loses the high and low frequency sooner than the middle because it's at the edges of the cables current carrying conductivity spec.  Digital doesn't lose one frequency over another.  It loses entire fractional moments of audio instead!
   
  My favorite was when Dolby Digital was all the rage in the late 90's for AVRs and the rise of DVD.  "Hear the audio like never before in 100% all digital quality".   Which was silly because DD AC3 is VERY lossy compression with very heavy and obvious artifacting (quantization.)  Oh you were hearing it like never before all right.... The only thing that made it seem half decent was that the noise floor was so attrocious on VHS that it burried so much audio that the artifacting still actually was more detailed than the hiss 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
  Quote: 





woody88 said:


> hello guys and gals,
> 
> in a bit of a pickle here, and would like some assistance if anyone can offer any thoughts on this. I received my Lyr/Bifrost combo today. I got it hooked up. My bifrost is the non USB version. I have a Rotel CD player fed into the BF via coax, and Pure I-20 fed to BF via Toslink. Every time if I were to skip a track or forward a track, the bifrost makes a clicking sound. It is very noticeable. I kept thinking if I have a defective unit. So for the next step, I used a generic coax digital cable to use on the Rotel CD player. Same thing.
> 
> ...


 

 Others already answered, but the gist of it (as a fellow (former) I-20 user) is it depends on the source and how it handles signals.  The Bifrost will click whenever the source changes (is added/removed) or when the sample rate changes.  You can simulate the effect with your I-20 by undocking and redocking your iDevice to it.  The Bifrost will click because it detected source disconnect/sample rate change.
   
  If you have audio files of multiple sample rates, it will click between playing them (riped CDs versus high-res audio, etc.)
   
  I think the general rule is if your source player/transport is equipped for gapless playback, it doesn't terminate the audio signal, no clicking.  If it doesn't handle gapless there's a good chance it starts & stops the signal and you get clicking.  It's normal, and it's ok.   I think old school (90's era) players commonly did the start & stop.  Some software players do it as well.  It's normal!  (Hint: many AV receivers will click like that as well when the source is lost.  I experience that with my HDMI switch on my Onkyo when I switch sources on the switch.


----------



## TheGrumpyOldMan

Can confirm this as well. When using my laptop via optical, it will click quite a lot because 1) when choosing optical as the output, everything will be routed through it, incl. system sounds 2) the laptop turns off optical when not in use to conserve power.
   
  So that can mean a lot of clickityclick when just working on the laptop. The solution is obviously to listen to music 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 After all that's what it's about, and the continuous soundstream means no clicking when additional system sounds are played since they are overlayed on the ongoing stream.
   
  Some docks keep up a continuous connection, and music also tends to be in a continuous stream (the red light at the other end stays on), so the Bifrost relay won't be triggered.


----------



## Maxvla

What I've done to limit clicking is turning off operating system sounds like popups for questions, etc.


----------



## TheGrumpyOldMan

...Or simply disconnect the cable if you're not listening to music anyway...


----------



## Maxvla

I use my headphone rig to watch movies and YouTube and various things so unplugging is more annoying than the light clicking I've learned to all but ignore.


----------



## ben_r_

Huh, this clicking issue sounds very annoying. I have a NuForce HDP and it def doesnt click. That would drive me nuts had I gone the Schiit route.


----------



## judmarc

A little more about "digital" cables -
   
  People are worried too much about data dropouts (which very seldom happen - if they do, you have real problems), and too little about jitter and electrical noise. 
   
  The second of these, electrical noise, "digital" USB and coax cables have in common with "analog" cables.  As I've mentioned before, unless your analog cables are made by a rather incompetent manufacturer and have gross frequency response deficiencies, most of the difference in the sound of analog cables should be along the lines of how they deal with electrical noise.  So digital coax and USB cables, being subject to the same electrical noise problems (or even more so in the case of USB, since they've got power running in the same cable with signal and ground) as analog cables, are fully capable of sounding as different from each other as your analog cables do. 
   
  And that's even before we start talking about jitter.  Jitter consists of timing errors *short of data dropouts* that produce audible distortion in the reconstructed analog signal.  The distortion is primarily of two types: raising the "noise floor" of the music (thus decreasing effective dynamic range), and harmonic distortion.  An async USB DAC like the Bifrost will eliminate most of the jitter due to anything in the chain before the clock in the DAC (though electrical noise can reach the clock circuitry through a USB digital cable and cause jitter that way).
   
  From theory to practicality: Anyone looking for a USB cable could IMHO do a lot worse than the reasonably priced (about $30 for 3/4 of a meter) Audioquest Forest.


----------



## ben_r_

Since we are talking cables, how are monster cables? They seem to me for their average ones such as this: LINK to be just another copper cable with fancy sheathing and gold looking contacts. I bought the one I linked to just because I needed a longer cable and it was fancier looking than the one my HDP came with. I of course, hear no difference between the two.


----------



## Audio_newb

I'm waiting it out for the statement DAC, but I have to say I hope it doesn't use the same relay system.  I understand that the clicking issue is "normal," and was likely a design decision based on getting the best sound quality out of the product, but things like this in the audiophile world bother me.  I don't want to have to stand on my left leg and turn out all the lights in my house just so that my products perform at their best.  If 99% of dac's out there can function without clicking, i feel like it is a bit odd to treat something like this as if it were a feature.  I'm willing to take a hit in the sound quality department in order for my dac not to annoy me on a regular basis.  Schiit's products look great, sound great, and the price is right, but features like dimmable led's, remote controls, and other functions that make products a joy to use shouldn't be sneered at.  Ultimately, I think that the gear that gets out of the way and you love to use is the kind of gear that best lets you enjoy your music, which when it comes down to it is what this is all about.


----------



## Kremer930

I am surprised that people think the click is such an issue. You can barely hear it with out headphones. To pick a dac with lesser sound quality to avoid a click which only happens between songs of different sample rates baffles me. 
   
  Even if the statement dac makes the same click I will buy it because it will still have awesome sound quality.


----------



## ben_r_

Quote: 





kremer930 said:


> I am surprised that people think the click is such an issue. You can barely hear it with out headphones. To pick a dac with lesser sound quality to avoid a click which only happens between songs of different sample rates baffles me.
> 
> Even if the statement dac makes the same click I will buy it because it will still have awesome sound quality.


 


  I dont know, there are lots of good sounding DACs out there. For me its kinda like, dang, all the engineering you did, all the design work you did, all the cost analysis you did, and youre just ALMOST there! Couldnt you have at least taken care of this one annoying noise?! I means its an AUDIO product for crying out loud! ANYTHING audible about it should have been the FIRST and foremost priority!


----------



## Anaxilus

Play it all in the same format and you won't hear anything.  I wouldn't sacrifice transparency to hide a click when switching resolutions.  Why get a DAC that sounds the same as others if that would be the result?  Of course having both would be great, otherwise if I had to pick....
   
  Hell, some multi-thousand dollar DACs decide to quite playing anything at all whenever they feel like.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  Remote controls and dimmers?  I'd begin to wonder about getting the Statement if they went crazy w/ non-sense.  It's a DAC, not a transport or server.  Keep it simple, extracting as much of the recording as possible and keep the price as low as possible.  Even for the Statement.  If they want to make some pimp version w/ a candy apple red chassis and Kinect motion sensors and double or triple the price go for it but count me out.


----------



## TheGrumpyOldMan

Personally, it doesn't bother me at all, and I certainly wouldn't make it a consideration when buying a DAC. I actually take it as a sign of a quality component rather than all the non-mechanical never-really-switch(off) device design these days. But I'm old-school you could say.
   
  And it's not as if you hear it while listening to music, it's only when you start, stop or switch. For that matter, the D2 has relays clicking when switching sources as well, so it's not the only DAC. And the E9 clicks after short delay when switching on etc...


----------



## olor1n

I like how the Bifrost "disappears" from the chain for the most part. It means I'm content with the level of fidelity and overall balance, and any gripe can usually be attributed to the particular recording or the tubes I have in place in the Lyr. It makes for an engaging listening experience when glaring flaws don't detract from the music.
   
  However, the illusion is sometimes shattered when the sound degrades to a static screeching for a short period, or when the dac seems to lose the signal mid song causing the track to skip and the Bifrost to click profusely. I've experienced these things on 3 different MacBooks, running SL and Lion. I use a Furutech Formula 2 usb cable and run BitPerfect with iTunes and never had this issue with past dacs.
   
  When the static occurs the sound returns to normal after a brief period and usually does not persist. I don't recall experiencing this via optical, so it may be confined to usb, but again I never had this issue with my other dacs. The skipping during playback and clicking mid song is more problematic. It happens through both usb and optical and usually persists, prompting the need to turn the Bifrost off.
   
  BitPerfect is set to output native bit and sample rate. It switches output on the fly without the need to restart iTunes but most of my library is 16/44 ALAC. The skipping/clicking also occurs when BitPerfect is not in play (iTunes launched by itself). I'm confident the issue is not software related.
   
  I've also experienced these issues on two different Bifrosts. One other person admitted to experiencing the static/screech a while back when I first mentioned it here.
   
  These things are random and thankfully not a common enough occurrence to be a major distraction.


----------



## Maxvla

I too hope the statement DAC does not click, but if it is necessary to maintain quality perhaps the crew can figure out a way to insulate it more to make it quieter. It isn't very loud now, but I'd rather the DAC make it's statement through the sound coming out of my headphones than from it's own body.


----------



## hp300plus

One of the first Bifrost batch receivers here, running optical from my iMac listening to music on a daily basis and have not had any issues other than the clicking which as many have said, is hardly noticeable and for sure not audible when listening to headphones.  (Enjoying every minute with the Bifrost still, BTW.)
   
  EDIT:  I don't know if the phrase "it grows on you" is appropriate for the clicking sound, but I sure don't even notice it anymore (even though it's happening).


----------



## Kremer930

I ordered a Bifrost as soon as they were announced.  I use PureMusic and have never experienced the sounds and symptoms that you describe.  I am also running a Mac.  Most of the time I output via optical but sometimes I use the USB also.
  
  Quote: 





olor1n said:


> I like how the Bifrost "disappears" from the chain for the most part. It means I'm content with the level of fidelity and overall balance, and any gripe can usually be attributed to the particular recording or the tubes I have in place in the Lyr. It makes for an engaging listening experience when glaring flaws don't detract from the music.
> 
> However, the illusion is sometimes shattered when the sound degrades to a static screeching for a short period, or when the dac seems to lose the signal mid song causing the track to skip and the Bifrost to click profusely. I've experienced these things on 3 different MacBooks, running SL and Lion. I use a Furutech Formula 2 usb cable and run BitPerfect with iTunes and never had this issue with past dacs.
> 
> ...


----------



## Denosha

I'm running my Bifrost through USB using Foobar (ASIO driver) for playback and I've never had any sort of problems with static, weird noises, the sound cutting out, etc. And I'm using a generic usb cable that I dug out from somewhere. Perhaps the problem is USB port related? Some kind of internal interference?
   
  Anyway, just to share my personal impressions of the Bifrost over my previous DAC which was a Centrance DACPort. Both DACs fed a Yamamoto HA-02 Amp with a LCD-2 (Rev1) on the other end (Q headphone cables). ICs for the DACPort were the QED J2P and Chord CobraPlus for the Bifrost. Both were using generic USB cables (i'm in the camp that doesn't believe cable quality really matters for digital signals). I haven't done any AB comparisons thus far but my first impression with the Bifrost right out of the box was "WOW!". I happened to have a song paused in my foobar from the night before and through the Bifrost it sound noticeably different. Better extension on both ends (especially the low-end), tighter bass and greater transparency. It probably isn't fair to compare a portable USB DAC/Headphone amp to a desktop dedicated USB DAC though. But the amount of improvement in audio quality really does speak volumes about what great value the Bifrost offers (considering the DACPort is quite similar in price).


----------



## Anathallo

Quote: 





thegrumpyoldman said:


> ...Or simply disconnect the cable if you're not listening to music anyway...


 


  ....Or simply isolate seperate the outputs on your computer - one for your music player, one for everything else (windows sounds, games, internet, etc..)?


----------



## hp300plus

On a Mac, if using optical out, all audio routes through the optical out.  You can't redirect system sounds to the internal speakers and then for example, iTunes to the optical out.  Though you could plug in a separate USB DAC and then route system sounds to it (with some amp/external speaker combo), and dedicate Bifrost optical to music only. 
   
   
  Quote: 





anathallo said:


> ....Or simply isolate seperate the outputs on your computer - one for your music player, one for everything else (windows sounds, games, internet, etc..)?


----------



## AppleDappleman

I have a question, if I buy the Bitfrost used, would i still be able to ask Schiit to add the USB support?

 and lastly, it seems like no one wants to sell any Bitfrosts cause I can't find any of them used! So if you're in the market of selling that, I don't mind stealing it off you if its a good deal haha


----------



## lextek

appledappleman said:


> I have a question, if I buy the Bitfrost used, would i still be able to ask Schiit to add the USB support?
> 
> and lastly, it seems like no one wants to sell any Bitfrosts cause I can't find any of them used! So if you're in the market of selling that, I don't mind stealing it off you if its a good deal haha



I'd be really surprised if Schitt would'nt upgrade their product for you. I guess you can't find one used because people buy them and like them.


----------



## powerpopper

Quote: 





hp300plus said:


> On a Mac, if using optical out, all audio routes through the optical out.  You can't redirect system sounds to the internal speakers and then for example, iTunes to the optical out.  Though you could plug in a separate USB DAC and then route system sounds to it (with some amp/external speaker combo), and dedicate Bifrost optical to music only.


 

 Ok, this is going to probably be a dumb question but here goes.
   
  Right now, I have the Bifrost/Lyr combo running off my iMac via Optical. Then I have my Apogee Duet 2 running off USB and this runs my powered speakers. There is no way the Lyr is going to run the speakers, right?


----------



## judmarc

When the statement DAC comes out, I'll likely be selling mine, and I wouldn't be surprised if there turned out to be a decent number of Bifrost owners willing to do the same.


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





appledappleman said:


> I have a question, if I buy the Bitfrost used, would i still be able to ask Schiit to add the USB support?


 

 It's an upgradeable, modular piece.  That was the intent.


----------



## hp300plus

Well, the Lyr does have RCA outputs that you could simply connect to your powered speakers and use the Lyr as both a headphone amp and 'pre-amp' (with it's own volume control) for your powered speakers.  With your Bifrost continuing to feed the Lyr, in this configuration, you'd simply not use the Apogee anymore as Lyr serves both headphone and pre-amp functions. 
   
   


  Quote: 





powerpopper said:


> Ok, this is going to probably be a dumb question but here goes.
> 
> Right now, I have the Bifrost/Lyr combo running off my iMac via Optical. Then I have my Apogee Duet 2 running off USB and this runs my powered speakers. There is no way the Lyr is going to run the speakers, right?


----------



## hp300plus

Ditto.

  
  Quote: 





judmarc said:


> When the statement DAC comes out, I'll likely be selling mine, and I wouldn't be surprised if there turned out to be a decent number of Bifrost owners willing to do the same.


----------



## AppleDappleman

Quote: 





anaxilus said:


> It's an upgradeable, modular piece.  That was the intent.


 


  Found out they just raised the price of the USB support to $150 instead of $100. Still a really good deal either way considering the price. 

 Now instead of any idea buying brand new for $500, i'm going to see if I can find a used one for a lot cheaper haha. Hopefully that statement DAC doesn't come out for a while cause I need to save money for the lyr also haha


----------



## powerpopper

Quote: 





hp300plus said:


> Well, the Lyr does have RCA outputs that you could simply connect to your powered speakers and use the Lyr as both a headphone amp and 'pre-amp' (with it's own volume control) for your powered speakers.  With your Bifrost continuing to feed the Lyr, in this configuration, you'd simply not use the Apogee anymore as Lyr serves both headphone and pre-amp functions.


 

 Thank you. Just tried that and it works great. Now the only problem is when I need to listen late night with no speakers I have to unplug every time. So close but yet so far away...


----------



## Kremer930

I am sure that there will be some bifrosts for sale at the release of the intermediate dac too.


----------



## Hero Kid

Quote: 





grokit said:


> It's too bad that people using search engines to find information about the Bifrost won't find this thread, perhaps the OP should change or add Bifrost to the title of it.


 


  Done.


----------



## netbususer

Yes, I'll also likely sell my Bifrost when the statement DAC comes out.
   
  As to the clicking/static issues; My Bifrost clicks only when I turn it off and on. It's a fairly loud click and can be heard even if headphones are not connected. I don't let it bother me as I assume it's just the parts turning on...  Early on I experienced this static issue. (Mac using Clementine or iTunes running via generic USB cable) My static issue would come on in the middle of a track and continue even if I changed tracks for maybe 15-20 seconds and go away. It was incredibly frustrating but it has since subsided. I found that when the static was occurring that if I shifted my USB cord on my iMac that it would disappear. I believe the static I was experiencing to have been related to the placement of the USB cord as it has not occurred in several weeks now since I've last adjusted the USB cable. Regardless, I am now awaiting my siliflex optical cable so that I can run without the need for some super cheap usb cord.
   
  Anyways, that's my $.02. For now, I'm very satisfied with the performance of my Bifrost and I await the launch of the statement DAC. (Though my wallet certainly does not. )


----------



## wberghofer

powerpopper said:


> Now the only problem is when I need to listen late night with no speakers I have to unplug every time.


 
   
  Why unplug? Why not use your speakers power switch instead?
   
  I use a Schiit Lyr in a similar setup both as a headphone amplifier and a pre-amp. When I don’t need the loudspeakers, I simply do not turn them on, but leave them connected to the Lyr’s RCA output all the time.
   
  By the way: Did you encounter any hum caused by the Lyr? In my setup I had to add a noise filter.
   
  Werner.


----------



## powerpopper

Quote: 





wberghofer said:


> Why unplug? Why not use your speakers power switch instead?
> 
> I use a Schiit Lyr in a similar setup both as a headphone amplifier and a pre-amp. When I don’t need the loudspeakers, I simply do not turn them on, but leave them connected to the Lyr’s RCA output all the time.
> 
> ...


 

 Yes, I figured that out after I posted it. BTW, we have the same speakers (KRK Rokit 5).
   
  Funny thing about hum on the Lyr. I got mine with the 6N1P tubes and experienced no hum. About a week later, I got some Tesla tubes and when I first put them in I heard some hum. They've now been on for a few weeks and no more hum. Go figure...


----------



## Anathallo

Huh, thanks for clearing that up, I had no idea.
   
  Check another box on why PCs > Macs (joking, joking, don't want to derail the thread!)
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
  Quote: 





hp300plus said:


> On a Mac, if using optical out, all audio routes through the optical out.  You can't redirect system sounds to the internal speakers and then for example, iTunes to the optical out.  Though you could plug in a separate USB DAC and then route system sounds to it (with some amp/external speaker combo), and dedicate Bifrost optical to music only.


----------



## wberghofer

> Originally Posted by *powerpopper* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> we have the same speakers (KRK Rokit 5) […]


 
   
  Great choice  Is there also a KRK 10s subwoofer in _your_ setup?
   



> Originally Posted by *powerpopper* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> Funny thing about hum on the Lyr […]





   
  At least with my Lyr, this hum only is present on the RCA out. On the headphone socket no hum is audible.
   
  Werner.


----------



## weitn

Quote: 





weitn said:


> Glad to received my Bifrost yesterday. My current setup is laptop (usb) -> Bifrost -> Lyr -> HD650. Initial impression, lack of mid and lack of bass. My Lyr already has more than 100+ hours of burn in. My older setup, laptop (usb) -> Fiio E17(DAC)+L7 -> Lyr -> HD650 sounds better. Will let Bifrost burn for another 50 or more hours and will hear how it sounds.


 
   
  Quote: 





maxvla said:


> Give it some time (brain burn in, not dac burn in). It will sneak up on you. Listen to the frost setup for a few days then go back to your Fiio setup and decide if you still prefer the Fiio. My guess is you will find the mids/bass less controlled and less detailed.


 

 Wow. After burning the Bifrost more than 50 hours, no longer has the lacking mid and bass. In fact, the bass is more control, solid and punchy. Overall, there are more details and clarity. Love the clarity of mid and treble.


----------



## weitn

Quote: 





iemcrazy said:


> +1.   The Bifrost is a very detailed, transparent, clean DAC.  It's not the most resolving in the world, but it's light years ahead of E17 in terms of resolution and transparency.  I often feel bad that I pay attention to all my gear, but endlessly forget about poor Bifrost being there at all.  It does its job and gets out of the way so well, it's very easy to forget it exists at all.  Which is the point of a DAC.  The E17 isn't as highly resolving, isn't as good at separation, and is probably adding a warm color to the sound.  With the Bifrost you're hearing your cans and your amp/tubes cleanly for the first time.  There's a good chance once you listen more you'll hear more detail you were missing before and realize you were mistaking clarity for thinness.  If you still like a more colored sound, it's time for tube rolling that Lyr!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 After burning Bifrost more than 50 hours, Bifrost sounds great and more detailed. Love the combination of Lyr + Bifrost + HD650. Can't stop listening to my favourite songs. Not lacking any bass now. Definitely a worthy upgrade. I will definitely upgrade the tube for slightly more mid and treble.


----------



## weitn

Quote: 





judmarc said:


> Quote:
> 
> I'm absolutely sure that in some systems S/PDIF will sound better.  In my system the dice are kinda loaded in favor of USB.
> 
> ...


 

 Thanks for USB preference list. Just received my AudioQuest Forest USB cable from Amazon yesterday.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





hp300plus said:


> On a Mac, if using optical out, all audio routes through the optical out.  You can't redirect system sounds to the internal speakers and then for example, iTunes to the optical out.  Though you could plug in a separate USB DAC and then route system sounds to it (with some amp/external speaker combo), and dedicate Bifrost optical to music only.


 

 This is actually incorrect. On the Mac, go to Sound Preferences, set the Output to the desired USB device (or Digital Output if using optical), then set the Sound Effects to Internal Speakers on the pull-down menu below the alert sound choices (Sound Effects = system sounds).


----------



## wberghofer

grokit said:


> This is actually incorrect. […]


 
   
  No, it is *correct.* On my iMac 27" running Mac OS X version 10.7.3 the option to use the internal speakers for alert sounds is _not available_ from the corresponding pop-up select list as long as digital output is the only output device available. However, as soon as an USB output device is plugged in and selected, it is possible to route alert sounds to the built-in speakers and to use another device for audio playback:
   

   

   
  Werner.


----------



## BlueAlien

The bifrost+lyr+AKG 702's is sounding amazing! As my first dedicated Dac and amp, I couldn't be happier.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





wberghofer said:


> grokit said:
> 
> 
> > This is actually incorrect. […]
> ...


 

 I think we're *both* correct, as I am running 10.6.8 and it seems that this has been changed in Lion. For the worse evidently!
   
  edit: Or it could be a Mac Pro vs. iMac thing, there are some differences in the digital audio implementation...


----------



## TheGrumpyOldMan

Just tested it as well: On a MBP running OSX 10.7.3:
  - Using line / headphone out: Only default option (Headphone Out) available
  - Using optical out (same physical port): Only default option (Digital Out) available
  - Using USB to DAC: Choice between Internal Speakers or USB DAC for system sounds


----------



## grokit

The Mac Pro is the only Mac to have separate full-size toslink in/outs rather than a mini-toslink out which is shared by the headphone port.


----------



## 1957GoldTop

First, I'm not trying to start anything here... just looking for some input.
   
  I have a Schiit Lyr for my AKG K702s.  The Lyr is connected to my Marantz SR6005.  Due to some configuration limitations with my setup in order to use the Lyr with digital and analog sources I'd need to have a DAC in between the Lyr and the Marantz.  You can see the detail on that issue here (around post 13 and 14):
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/598818/headphone-amp-to-receiver
   
  Anyway, since I have the Lyr I thought the BiFrost would be a good option.  I would be able to get digital and analog use of the lyr and I could use the BiFrost as the DAC rather than using the Marantz DAC (something I thought would be an upgrade).
   
  But, on a completely separate topic, I've been corresponding back and for with the Founder/CTO of Audyssey.  The subject eventually came around to DACs.  To which he said:
  "What I'm trying to say is that the purported quality difference in DACs is almost nonexistent these days. If it's there it can only be found through laboratory testing and will not be audible under normal listening conditions.  But considering the product you have (Marantz SR6005) ... I would be surprised if there were audible differences due to an external more expensive DAC."
   
  Comments?


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





1957goldtop said:


> But, on a completely separate topic, I've been corresponding back and for with the Founder/CTO of Audyssey.  The subject eventually came around to DACs.  To which he said:
> "What I'm trying to say is that the purported quality difference in DACs is almost nonexistent these days. If it's there it can only be found through laboratory testing and will not be audible under normal listening conditions.  But considering the product you have (Marantz SR6005) ... I would be surprised if there were audible differences due to an external more expensive DAC."
> 
> *Comments?*


 

 Yes, he's talking about DAC chips, not how they're implemented in a source also called a DAC.  Go get a seriously transparent amp and headphone and hook them up to a Fiio E10 and a Perfect Wave DAC and see if you don't hear a difference.  If you don't then pocket the change and be happy.


----------



## 45longcolt

Howdy 1957GoldTop- You've raised an interesting point, which has different facets. The DAC chip is just part of the picture - after all, there's one in your mp3 player, but it's cheap at best The rest of the DAC component may be even more important than the chip. One can put the most powerful engine in a car, but if the chassis, brakes, etc. aren't good the result won't be a satisfactory vehicle. And all that doesn't even touch on the subject of voicing - the designer tuning the component (amp, DAC, speaker etc.) to his own vision/taste/standards or whatever you'd call it. As someone recently said to me on exactly this subject, if you give two people the same ingedients and have them bake cakes, what are the odds the cakes will tast identical?
   
  And due to equipment failure, I believe I've found the practical limits of the Bifrost. I'd been feeding it from a Marantz SA8004, a well-reviewed $1,000 unit which also plays SACDs. The Bifrost improved the sound. Then the 8004 quit reading SACDs, which is what I bought it for. So I took it back to the dealer, gave him another $1,000 and got the new Marantz SA15s2 Limited.
   
  Right out of the box, bags more bass than the Bifrost. While I disagree with those who say the Schiit is bass-shy, I admit I've been luxuriating in the Marantz's bass like a cat in a basket of right-out-of-the-dryer laundry. Also there's a little more soundstage, especially in the front-to-back dimension. The new player is still breaking in, so I've not done serious A-B listening.But for now, I would say that the Bifrost will help with any player costing less than two grand. And of course it's the proverbial no-brainer for computer use.
   
  Presuming you like the way it's voiced...


----------



## knowhatimean

For some time now I've had a preference for listening to the carefully ripped & burned copy of my Cds. I always detect some amount of improvement in the sound (some quite a bit more than you would guess). A simple explanation would be that burned discs have less jitter as the "pits" are more distinct thus your players' error correction comes into play less often.
   
  I decided to cut the CDs out of the equation as I have a Cambridge Audio Network Music Player, that I had gotten to play internet radio from. One of it's features is that it has USB inputs that you can connect thumb or hard drives & it becomes a player for these. The internal dac is'nt horrible(it uses a lesser Wolfson chip) but it can be improved upon by hooking up a DAC of your choice. via optical or coaxial cable. I'm an "audio guy" so I chose to use which one ?.... You took too long... a coaxial (Cardas) cable to an Arcam rDAC (the Bifrost had a very long waiting list when I was putting this "alternate playback system" together. Listening to CDs ripped to a drive (using dbPoweramp CD ripper) is not like listening to them being played back on an optical drive(CD player). The presence of the music is more immediate sounding & fuller sounding, but I still thought the sound had some slight "ruff edges" that I could'nt put my finger on. I then remebered that the Arcam DAC also uses a Wolfson dac chip (a better one than what's inside the Cambridge,  but a Wolfson bit nevertheless).
   
  So, (Here's where I get to the Bifrost part, took me long enough, huh ?) I decided to give the Bifrost a try! I've been listening to the 22gigs of CDs I've ripped to a 500 g Western Digital HD (hooked up w/ an Audioquest Forest USB cable) to the Cambridge for a few hours now, color me very impressed. So now I'll listen to my SACDs on my Oppo 95(which I've tweeked a bit, so it's still "Top Dog" on my music playback list) & my CD listening really won't be listening to the physical CDs after they've been ripped. I've been listening to some Debussy piano music for a little while & I remember saying to myself " Boy, that sure does'nt sound like a modern Steinway ! ) That would be because it was an 1897 Bechstein (You know what ? I think a Hamburg Steinway would have been my choice). Given the price of the Bifrost it is a slamdunk bargain. I will definitely be keeping my eye open for any plug in upgrades should they become available


----------



## Maxvla

Paragraphs please.


----------



## estreeter

Quote: 





maxvla said:


> Paragraphs please.


 

 +1
   
  One of the reasons I avoided the lure of tutoring cash at Uni was that I didn't want to get dragged into marking first year papers. Imagine the post above, but with completely illegible handwriting - the horror, the horror.


----------



## grokit

+ 2 on adding a few carriage returns. I have a tendency to tune out and skip these kind of posts regardless of their content, it's an attention span thing. I'm sure it's my loss in some cases.
   
  The only thing worse is ALL CAPS


----------



## Shubar

But what about all the cute girls???
  Quote: 





estreeter said:


> +1
> 
> One of the reasons I avoided the lure of tutoring cash at Uni was that I didn't want to get dragged into marking first year papers. Imagine the post above, but with completely illegible handwriting - the horror, the horror.


----------



## Argo Duck

That post is a model of clarity compared to marking an entire class's exam scripts - 2nd and even 3rd year. Up to 200 per course.
   
  You get very, very good at isolating the key points _fast! _




   
  And I never let my tutors anywhere near the essay marking - too inconsistent.


----------



## knowhatimean

Quote: 





argo duck said:


> That post is a model of clarity compared to marking an entire class's exam scripts - 2nd and even 3rd year. Up to 200 per course.
> 
> You get very, very good at isolating the key points _fast! _
> 
> ...


 
  Thank you !!! I was getting ready for a tar & feathering ! So I guess any content of my posting was "blown out the window" due to the poor structuring of the message , huh ? Anyone (who  was eager enough to join the "stoning") is welcome to re-read my posting for the message this time. Just put on the 3D glasses you did'nt drop in the box at the movie theatre before attempting the 2nd read. In all fairness though, it was only about a paragraph &  a half of content.
   
  I keep forgetting that many you appear to have Attention Deficit Syndrome. That would explain a lot of the ramblings I see over here.(Hey, look I used the return key. I think I'll do it again)
   
  Have a "structurally correct , content devoid" day. That should be pretty easy to accomplish for many of you.
   
  That was'nt the real ending of my posting. This is !
   
  Or Not! (I could do this all day)
   
  As a sidenote I went back & editied the post a bit (Yeah, it was a bit of "lump", hopefully less so now)


----------



## ninjikiran

Think he meant units not chips but anyway for the 99% there isn't much difference in dacs once you get to a certain price range.  That price range is dependent on the device of course, it can be $150-$1000.
   
  If you listen to the NFB-2 and Bifrost most people will say they sound the same.  But if you listen to both long enough you'll hear the differences.  More than detail/microdetail which can be placebo/rolling off the NFB-2 obviously rolls off the highs more so than the Bifrost. So there are differences, you just have to be aware of them but for sub conscious listening you wont notice.
   
  Most people will be happy with the dac in their iphone(which imo beats a ton of motherboard integrated audio solutions). Then theres a large group upwards that are perfectly ok with the dac in their sexy high end receiver.  Which depending on make can sound really really good.  I might upgrade to the statement dac but  I am perfectly happy with the bifrost.  Now amps are where its at.  The lyr was a significant change over the concerto.  A nice sideways step.


----------



## Kremer930

When was the last update on either the statement or the intermediate?


----------



## Maxvla

Hoping for something this month. They've been pretty quiet while getting Bifrost's backlog up to date. This was finished a couple weeks ago, so should have something soon.


----------



## MrScary

God what is the freaking hold up I haven't posted on this in 6 months we were suppose to see the second DAC by end of year and then the top of the line sometime in January it was...

Well I am still waiting on the top end DAC not patiently though.. ohh well :0


----------



## christophrowley

Jason has explained why the dates were pushed back. We've known the mid range is supposed to be Q1 and the statement Q2 for months. If it's any consolation, waiting a little longer will only make you appreciate it more.


----------



## pyramid6

They also said they weren't going to announce until they were about ready to ship.  At least I think they said it.


----------



## Kremer930

I remember that Jason was not going to provide pre-order since they got caught with issues that were beyond their control. I wasn't being impatient. I was just checking for updates.


----------



## Anathallo

Q1 also ends in less than 2 weeks.  I'm sure you can forgive him for getting antsy since a Q1 release is pretty optimistic now.
  Quote: 





christophrowley said:


> Jason has explained why the dates were pushed back. We've known the mid range is supposed to be Q1 and the statement Q2 for months. If it's any consolation, waiting a little longer will only make you appreciate it more.


----------



## Jason Stoddard

Apologies, everyone. But you really should relax. This isn't a cure for cancer or a solution for world peace. This is just our new stuff (which is pretty damn cool, yeah, but it's not worth getting upset over.)
   
  In a few days, I'll make an announcement about the "midrange" products, Mjolnir (balanced amp) and Gungnir (balanced DAC). Which really are end-game products. This announcement will give you plenty of information to chew on and decide if the products are for you, but there will be no pre-order. There'll be an interest list and an anticipated shipping date. Pre-orders will be open when all parts are at the board house for assembly, all final metal has been through QC, and we're ready to produce. This means there won't be delays, as there were with Bifrost.
   
  So, in true Schiit fashion, here's an FAQ about where we are and why everything is so late:
   
*So, why the heck are you so late? Have you just been sitting around, watching TV and eating bonbons?*
  Yep. That's exactly what we've been doing. It's not like we've been expanding dramatically, struggling to keep up with orders, hiring new people and moving into an entirely new, 5x larger space. It's not like we haven't been scaling up production and making the investments in operations that are necessary to ensure we don't have endless backorders again. We_ love _getting ten thousand emails about "where's my stuff!"
   
*Why can't you do new products at the same time you scale up?*
  Because you'd much rather have us get the current stuff right than pump out some half-sorted attempt at new gear. We've seen that kill more companies than you can imagine. Also, consider that every new product we're announcing is a "one and only" product, not the chip of the month in a fancy box--so it takes a lot more development work than you might expect.
   
*So, why didn't you anticipate the demand you have?*
  We did. The problem is, every time we made a prediction for future production, our needs exceeded it by 50-100%. We're now building 2-5X larger production runs than in the past. 
   
*Are you done with the growth pains?*
 For now, we have plenty of space and runs that will keep backorder to a minimum. There are some new faces around the shop, including Alex, who's in charge of operations. Things are working much more smoothly now. Which means--
   
*So when are the new products coming out!*
 We'll announce the midrange products in the next few days. Like I said, it'll be an interest list. We'll specify anticipated shipping dates on the interest list and announce pre-order shortly before shipping. At least one of the products will be shipping in Q2.
   
*How about the "statement" stuff?*
 We still expect to announce and ship this year. I have good confidence this will happen, now that we've had our operational issues largely taken care of.


----------



## DarknightDK

Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> In a few days, I'll make an announcement about the "midrange" products, Mjolnir (balanced amp) and Gungnir (balanced DAC). Which really are end-game products.


 


  Looking forward to that announcement to see what Schitt has in store. Thanks for the update!


----------



## Kremer930

Thanks for the update Jason.  I dont think that I will be ordering either of the intermediate options.  Mainly because I doubt that I could pronounce either!!!  
   
  I am happy to keep waiting for your statement gear.  I am also happy to receive the occasional update.


----------



## sridhar3

We need Ragnarok, Yggdrasil and Heimdall!


----------



## ninjikiran

Ragnarök should be the statement dac or the combination of their statement dac with their statement amp.
   
  In the end there will only be two... to repopulate the audio world
   
  Yggdrasil should be a digital connection like their USB chip.


----------



## Maxvla

Thanks for the update, Jason. You guys are doing great trying to keep up with our impatient selves, so don't sweat it. It'll get done when it gets done. I love how high your quality control has remained during this whole ordeal, very impressive.


----------



## jworl

Thanks for the update, Jason! Sounds like business is really booming for you guys. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I'm sure those looking for your balanced amps and DACs will wait a little longer. ...maybe not patiently, but they'll be waiting nonetheless, right? (right)


----------



## 45longcolt

If I recall correctly, Ragnarok was to be the top-end amp, Yggdrasil the big boy DAC. (or was that the other way around?)
   
  So what's a Heimdall (sounds like a city in New Jersey..)?
   
  Jason, please feel free to confirm or deny. Thanks for keeping us updated.
   
  And teaching us patience...


----------



## grokit

Great news, thanks for the update Jason. But I think that I speak for many in that it will be hard to take the mid-line plunge without knowing at least some details on how different the statement gear will be, both in price and topology/features.


----------



## Uncle00Jesse

I am a proud bifrost owner and i've only said good things about schiit. but seriously... those new names are absolutely horrendous! Mjolnir??? maybe they have a cool underlying meaning, but wow what the heck were you guys thinking?


----------



## Maxvla

Mythology... Haven't you noticed the other gear has similar names?


----------



## Uncle00Jesse

Valhalla, Lyr, Bifrost all have a good ring to it. I understand the mythology part but from a marketing standpoint, the Schiit Mjolnir sounds pretty weird. Just my oppinion, but I'm sure there will be others that feel the same way. (obviously the sound is whats important, just thought I'd bring the names up for conversation)


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





uncle00jesse said:


> Valhalla, Lyr, Bifrost all have a good ring to it. I understand the mythology part but from a marketing standpoint, the Schiit Mjolnir sounds pretty weird. Just my oppinion, but I'm sure there will be others that feel the same way. (obviously the sound is whats important, just thought I'd bring the weird names up for conversation)


 

 Are you pronouncing it right?  I have no problem saying Molneer.  I do have a problem saying Emjollyner.


----------



## Chank

I actually think using the names from Norse Mythology is awesome! That and the fact that they're using a consistant naming theme. As a Bifrost/Lyr owner I'll be looking to upgrade to the top end Reference Amp/DAC!


----------



## Uncle00Jesse

I was totally butchering the pronunciation, thanks for pointing that out. But still, I really dont like the names. I reminds me of a smartphone maker that has so many different models that the names become odd and out of place. Except in the case of shiit, this will be their 5th and 6th products and they can't come up with anything better than Mjolnir? Just feels like a brainstorming session gone wrong


----------



## grokit

The Schiit Hammer has a better ring to it but I do like the Norse themes overall.


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





grokit said:


> The Schiit Hammer has a better ring to it but I do like the Norse themes overall.


 

 Lol!  I'm waiting on the Schiit Plunger.  True 'wire with gain'.


----------



## Maxvla

You really need to take a crash course on norse mythology to appreciate these names. Mjolnir is Thor's hammer. Bifrost the bridge between worlds, Asgard and Valhalla both legendary places. The rest are there for you to find.


----------



## grokit

Or just Google it.


----------



## Anaxilus

^  That never made any sense.  The power comes from Mjolnir, not Thor.  Thor w/o Mjolnir has no Thor powers.  Anyone else wielding Mjolnir could not have Thor powers as Thor has none inherently.  Whatever.  Batman is better, he can afford an Orpheus.


----------



## Draygonn

grokit said:


> The Schiit Hammer has a better ring to it but I do like the Norse themes overall.




I'm waiting for the Schiit Storm


----------



## qusp

Quote: 





knowhatimean said:


> Thank you !!! I was getting ready for a tar & feathering ! So I guess any content of my posting was "blown out the window" due to the poor structuring of the message , huh ? Anyone (who  was eager enough to join the "stoning") is welcome to re-read my posting for the message this time. Just put on the 3D glasses you did'nt drop in the box at the movie theatre before attempting the 2nd read. In all fairness though, it was only about a paragraph &  a half of content.
> 
> I keep forgetting that many you appear to have Attention Deficit Syndrome. That would explain a lot of the ramblings I see over here.(Hey, look I used the return key. I think I'll do it again)
> 
> ...


 



 See, was it so hard? yes it seems so..... this is a real problem with your communication skills and if you just shrug it off with a sarcastic reply and try to blame the reader you are missing the point. It seems also that you are confusing a line of text with a carriage return as a paragraph; paragraphs are about breaking a block of text into bite size pieces so as to make the ideas contained within have narrative, in their usual form they have a beginning and end, with content in the middle.


----------



## dyl1dyl

Sigh, seems like the statement stuff is probably only going to be shipping around q4. Oh well, I can understand the delays given Schiit are a small company but still dissapointed. Haha, will probably decide between the Gungnir, the Calyx Dac or the Auralic Ark Mx+ for my headphone system now.


----------



## Maxvla

Just seems like longer. Transitioning from heavy pre-orders with big backlog, to filling the shelves then release with product ready to go, is a huge shift and finishing the first part and getting prepared for the second part feels like an eternity. Once the mid range gear begins flowing the transition to the statement gear shouldn't take as long since we're already in the correct flow.


----------



## dyl1dyl

Quote: 





maxvla said:


> Just seems like longer. Transitioning from heavy pre-orders with big backlog, to filling the shelves then release with product ready to go, is a huge shift and finishing the first part and getting prepared for the second part feels like an eternity. Once the mid range gear begins flowing the transition to the statement gear shouldn't take as long since we're already in the correct flow.


 

 Yup, hopefully. However, from Jason's comment that they "still expect to announce and ship this year" regarding the statement stuff, I'm guessing it's probably gonna be pretty late in the year. Hopefully an announcement or at least some hints first. If it's tempting enough, I just might survive on my XDA-1 in my room setup and wait for the Statement DAC.


----------



## Maxvla

Yeah for now I'm going to sell a few things and use that money to climb the DAC ladder to where the statement stuff will be around, then get the statement when it releases and compare and see who wins. Don't really want to wait nearly a year.


----------



## dyl1dyl

Quote: 





maxvla said:


> Yeah for now I'm going to sell a few things and use that money to climb the DAC ladder to where the statement stuff will be around, then get the statement when it releases and compare and see who wins. Don't really want to wait nearly a year.


 

 Yup, that sounds like a good idea. I'll probably see how the Gungnir looks and either get it or the Calyx then sell that when the Statement DAC comes out.


----------



## Kremer930

But what will I be able wait for once I have purchased the statement rig? I have only been into headfi for approx 18 months and pretty much all that time I have been waiting for something. Luckily my rigs are almost complete.


----------



## Maxvla

kremer930 said:


> But what will I be able wait for once I have purchased the statement rig? I have only been into headfi for approx 18 months and pretty much all that time I have been waiting for something. *Luckily my rigs are almost complete*.




We got a comedian here, guys!


----------



## judmarc

Gungnir and Mjolnir - spear and hammer.  Correct balance is important in both.
   
  Will be interested just for the sake of curiosity in the guts of Gungnir, given Mike Moffatt's history and what Jason has said about no "me too" designs.  As far as purchase, I've personally owned only two DACs in the last 20+ years, both designed by Mike, so I feel comfortable waiting for the statement piece to upgrade from the Bifrost, with which I'm currently very well pleased.


----------



## 45longcolt

I'm hoping Schitt will make a subwoofer.
   
  And call it the Deep Schiit.
   
  Rimshot.


----------



## knowhatimean

Quote: 





qusp said:


> See, was it so hard? yes it seems so..... this is a real problem with your communication skills and if you just shrug it off with a sarcastic reply and try to blame the reader you are missing the point. It seems also that you are confusing a line of text with a carriage return as a paragraph; paragraphs are about breaking a block of text into bite size pieces so as to make the ideas contained within have narrative, in their usual form they have a beginning and end, with content in the middle.


 
  Yes, you are absolutely correct in your description of proper writing technique. I do think you are being a bit over critical of my communicational skills, as writing is only one means of communication(which I admit is lacking, I'll try harder). My responding with sarcasm was in part due to several posters willingness to point out my grammatically flawed posting. The initial posting was sufficient. No one really appreciates when a group of people find it necessary to add their "2 cents" worth of criticism with comments such as " +1 ". I did'nt realize that you were required to respond immediately to confirm you understood the initial criticism of your posting.
   
  No, it was'nt that difficult . Sometimes in the heat of the moment (& I was a bit aggravated that a slight "group mentality" had developed) you forget that the edit tab is available to correct your mistakes. As a kid, I read (& enjoyed immensely) a lot of Edgar Rice Burroughs. If there is a criticism of his writing style that I've seen more than once,it was that he tended to be too descriptive & his sentences were too long. I don't see overdescriptiveness as a flaw. I had something else that I would have preferred to be doing besides being that entertained ?
   
  As I've said, I'll try harder!


----------



## sridhar3

Stop crapping up this thread and get a room.


----------



## HeyWaj10

Gaaahhh...I just ordered a Bifrost 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  I feel like a kid, I'm so excited.  Going from a uDac2 to this, so I'm really excited to clean the signal up significantly.  Also just ordered an Audioquest Forest USB cable.  Hopefully these new additions will really open up my Denons...even if just a bit, I'll be ten-fold happier.


----------



## ben_r_

Quote: 





heywaj10 said:


> Gaaahhh...I just ordered a Bifrost
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 If the uDAC-2's DAC sounds anything close to the HDP's DAC, judging from this thread:
  http://www.head-fi.org/forum/newestpost/469767
  I wouldnt expect too large a difference...
   
  I have been going back and forth on it for a while now myself and havent found much reason to upgrade my HDP to a Bitfrost/Asgard combo. Maybe the Lyr...


----------



## knowhatimean

Quote: 





sridhar3 said:


> Stop crapping up this thread and get a room.


 
  Yeah, you guys would rather post a few hundred pages on anticipation threads & then post some ridiculous, or clueless information about the product when the product does arrive. What was I thinking to interrupt that train of thought ! How do you crap up cluelessness ! It seems a shame to crap up all those months of making the same comments to all those buddies over here. Oops, I crapped it up !


----------



## Webcredo

Anyone looking to buy a brand new and sealed Schiit Bifrost with USB for a great price check out my link.
  There was 3 left but I grabbed on at the sweet price of $399 with USB to hold me over. Thats right $399 with USB instead of $449. For the extra $50 its a no brainer.
  Move fast just two left.
http://www.amazon.com/Schiit-Audio-Upgradable-BITPERFECT-Includes/dp/B0074SG3RK/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1332273035&sr=1-1


----------



## Webcredo

Forgot to say its sold By hidef Lifestyles and fullfilled by amazon, so prime user get free shipping or $4 overnight shipping. They are fully authorized Schiit dealers so your 5 year warranty is valid.


----------



## Webcredo

Just so everyone knows, the last two are now sold. Just keep checking that link incase they add more. I know who bought one of the last two, but dont know who grabbed the last one. Care to share if you grabbed one of the last two at that price!


----------



## hp300plus

Here's my personal experience from uDac 2 to Bifrost if you didn't catch it (though I am using Optical versus USB).  Congratulations, Bifrost is splendid.
   
   

  
  Quote: 





heywaj10 said:


> Gaaahhh...I just ordered a Bifrost
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## ben_r_

Quote: 





hp300plus said:


> Here's my personal experience from uDac 2 to Bifrost if you didn't catch it (though I am using Optical versus USB).  Congratulations, Bifrost is splendid.


 


  Huh, Ive never heard any computer generated noise via any connection from my NuForce HDP. But Im not sure if it has the same USB and DAC setup as the uDAC-2. From all that Ive been reading Im assuming it doesnt and has a much better of both.


----------



## HeyWaj10

I actually did see that post, which was one of the many determining factors for going Bifrost in my situation.  I was originally trying to hold out for the statement dac, but seeing as how it could be almost a year before getting one of those, I wanted to move up in the chain and get my first taste of Schiit. 

 Like I kind of said, if I get even a 20% improvement in detail, soundstage, imaging and resolution, I'll be more than happy with the purchase. Of course, I'm sure it will surpass that level.
  Quote: 





hp300plus said:


> Here's my personal experience from uDac 2 to Bifrost if you didn't catch it (though I am using Optical versus USB).  Congratulations, Bifrost is splendid.


----------



## Anaxilus

20% is a big number.  That's almost like hearing a newly discovered instrument from a Jazz Quartet.


----------



## qusp

Quote: 





anaxilus said:


> 20% is a big number.  That's almost like hearing a newly discovered instrument from a Jazz Quartet.


 


  its also pretty meaningless, i really wish people would stop even trying to attribute such rigid percentile/incremental differences between random combinations of equipment, as heard by different people with different tastes


----------



## ninjikiran

Whoever came up with the corporate name Schiit Audio either was a genius or made the best happy coincidence ever.  The name alone seems to spark up an interesting potty humor discussion.
   
  Even the names of the amps/dacs seem to bring random discussion.
   
  Its marketing genius~


----------



## HeyWaj10

Right, it's meaningless, which is why I threw out such an arbitrary number to begin with.  In no way was that a literal figure I was aiming for...seriously?  It was the concept of a perceived improvement in performance, not a statistical measurement.
   
  I just want my rig to sound better, is that so wrong?
  
  Quote: 





qusp said:


> its also pretty meaningless, i really wish people would stop even trying to attribute such rigid percentile/incremental differences between random combinations of equipment, as heard by different people with different tastes


----------



## ben_r_

Quote: 





qusp said:


> its also pretty meaningless, i really wish people would stop even trying to attribute such rigid percentile/incremental differences between random combinations of equipment, as heard by different people with different tastes


 


   
  If that ever happened, this WHOLE website would shutdown as no one would care! Audio really is subjective. Everyone hears things entirely different and has different tastes in what they like. So really, there is no point in asking what anything sounds like, whether it be amps, DACs, cables, or headphones, as the only possible way to get any kind of useful answer to those kinds of questions is to buy whatever it is in question and try it yourself. Everything else is just hearsay.
  
  Quote: 





ninjikiran said:


> Whoever came up with the corporate name Schiit Audio either was a genius or made the best happy coincidence ever.  The name alone seems to spark up an interesting potty humor discussion.
> 
> Even the names of the amps/dacs seem to bring random discussion.
> 
> Its marketing genius~


 

  

 Yea it was a good name choice, I dont know about marketing genius, its been done many times before in every industry in existence, but it was still a goo route to go.


----------



## Kremer930

qusp said:


> its also pretty meaningless, i really wish people would stop even trying to attribute such rigid percentile/incremental differences between random combinations of equipment, as heard by different people with different tastes




I just interpreted it to mean that he will be happy with a small improvement in sound quality.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





sridhar3 said:


> Stop crapping up this thread and get a room.


 

 Now that is is efficient rhetorical discourse!


----------



## dyl1dyl

The anticipation of the announcement is killing me...


----------



## Maxvla

Death by DAC.


----------



## ben_r_

Quote: 





maxvla said:


> Death by DAC.


 


  Probably be more like: death by PRICE of DAC!


----------



## dyl1dyl

Quote: 





maxvla said:


> Death by DAC.


----------



## dyl1dyl

Sigh, its been one week since Jason's message. Where's the announcement???


----------



## Maxvla




----------



## dyl1dyl

Quote: 





maxvla said:


>


 

 Yup, something I've learnt in audio. Almost all my purchases have come after long waits. Though I have to say sometimes the waiting makes the final receiving of the product so much better. The only product in recent history that I bought without a pre-order is the Audez'e LCD-3s I think and of course they were recently "improved" so still kinda had to wait a bit for the final version.


----------



## Defiant00

Well, the preliminary store pages are up (if you change the product ID):
   
  Prices: $750 each
  Shipping June 2012
   
  MJOLNIR: http://schiit.com/cart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=0&products_id=10

   
  GUNGNIR: http://schiit.com/cart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=0&products_id=11


----------



## Maxvla

Good find!


----------



## sridhar3

Hooray for BNC!


----------



## Defiant00

Ehe, I sort of hate to steal Jason's thunder, but it is up on their site 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'm sure he's going to show up soon with another awesome Schiit FAQ for us anyways.


----------



## sridhar3

Ugh, these are enticing.  It's going to prove difficult to sit still and wait for the statement stuff.


----------



## Maxvla

I'm not waiting


----------



## Benjamin6264

*Insert obligatory comment about wallet here*
   
  I am seriously intrigued by the Mjolnir. With the same power output as HiFiMAN's new EF-6 amplifier (which I ordered), I wonder how the two will compare. Knowing Schiit, I wouldn't be so surprised if the Mjolnir turned out to be a serious competitor, even with the lower price (the EF-6 is $1300 in pre-order, and will cost $1500 after that).
  
  Quote: 





defiant00 said:


> Well, the preliminary store pages are up (if you change the product ID):
> 
> Prices: $750 each
> Shipping June 2012


----------



## Maxvla

Loving that the usb is again optional for $150 savings. Also I really like the looks of this long form much better than the current shorter devices.


----------



## Defiant00

Quote: 





maxvla said:


> Loving that the usb is again optional for $150 savings. Also I really like the looks of this long form much better than the current shorter devices.


 


  Definitely agree on the optional USB, although I'm curious if the $750 includes it or not. I actually think I prefer the current shorter ones, but that might be because I've got them sitting next to me and I've only seen the posted pictures of these. I'll be curious if they still look as stretched out to me when we get more pictures.


----------



## Maxvla

I think the small ones look kind of dinky. These look more like real gear.


----------



## blankdisc

The links are dead now. It seems that someone at Schiit was definitely watching this thread.


----------



## TheGrumpyOldMan

Or getting sign-ups for their unpublished interest list...


----------



## Defiant00

Quote: 





thegrumpyoldman said:


> Or getting sign-ups for their unpublished interest list...


 


  Haha, indeed. Interesting that going to one of those doesn't direct to their normal 'product not found' page but kicks you back to the home page.


----------



## ben_r_

Dang... $1500 isnt too bad for a good looking blanced DAC and amp if its good sounding stuff. Cant wait to see how the reviews from third parties rate these guys.


----------



## wkhanna

Quote: 





blankdisc said:


> The links are dead now. It seems that someone at Schiit was definitely watching this thread.


 


  
  [size=medium]Poor Jason…….[/size]
  [size=medium]He must feel like the last tiny defensive outlook bastion on the vast tundra, helplessly watching as Attila & his Huns (us) roll towards like a thousand-year tsunami.  [/size]
   
  [size=medium]Then again, he should also have a new-found respect for our resourcefulness. His minions are a sly lot of geeks.[/size]


----------



## Defiant00

And the pages are back...announcement eminent?


----------



## Greg121986

The links are working for me.


----------



## Maxvla

http://www.head-fi.org/t/603160/neck-deep-in-schiit-gungir-balanced-dac-and-mjolnir-balanced-amp-announced

Here we go...


----------



## ninjikiran

I am lucky #13 on interest list


----------



## wkhanna

#12 on the 'interest list'.
  I may not wait for the Statement, either.
  I may flip my Bifrost now, and then flip the Gungnir when the Statement is available.
  Silly, really given the performance of the Bifrost and 'rent' I'll end up paying.
  Still, it is hard to resist.


----------



## Edoardo

Jason, you guys put the USB option in the amp page


----------



## sridhar3

Quote:



jason stoddard said:


> Yep, fixing that now . . .


 
   
http://www.head-fi.org/t/603160/neck-deep-in-schiit-gungir-balanced-dac-and-mjolnir-balanced-amp-announced#post_8263587


----------



## sphinxvc

Quote:


defiant00 said:


> Well, the preliminary store pages are up (if you change the product ID):


 

 Clever.  Nice job.


----------



## Benjamin6264

Excuse my ignorance, but I am a bit confused by the "balanced only" character of the Mjolnir.
   
  I am aware that there are only 4-pin and dual 3-pin outputs, but couldn't an adapter ending with a 1/4" female connector allow the use of unbalanced headphones? Couldn't a 1/4" socket have been implemented on the amplifier by bridging it with one of the other outputs?


----------



## Jason Stoddard

Quote: 





benjamin6264 said:


> Excuse my ignorance, but I am a bit confused by the "balanced only" character of the Mjolnir.
> 
> I am aware that there are only 4-pin and dual 3-pin outputs, but couldn't an adapter ending with a 1/4" female connector allow the use of unbalanced headphones? Couldn't a 1/4" socket have been implemented on the amplifier by bridging it with one of the other outputs?


 


  One word: boom. (Well, actually not 'boom,' but you'll trigger the internal protection.)
   
  It's a circlotron, not two of the same gain stages per channel. It's inherently balanced. It cannot be unbalanced. If you have time, look up "cross-shunt push-pull topology."


----------



## Austin Morrow

Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> One word: boom. (Well, actually not 'boom,' but you'll trigger the internal protection.)
> 
> It's a circlotron, not two of the same gain stages per channel. It's inherently balanced. It cannot be unbalanced. If you have time, look up "cross-shunt push-pull topology."


 

 Nothing but pure balance. That's what I like to hear.


----------



## Kremer930

This stuff is tempting. It must be karma that I just had my DT1350's re-wired to balanced!


----------



## Benjamin6264

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *Jason Stoddard* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> One word: boom. (Well, actually not 'boom,' but you'll trigger the internal protection.)
> 
> It's a circlotron, not two of the same gain stages per channel. It's inherently balanced. It cannot be unbalanced. If you have time, look up "cross-shunt push-pull topology."


 
   
   
  Alright, thank you for the clarification.
   
  I'm glad to see that this amp isn't designed for versatility. To me, this means that the efforts were concentrated on the SQ and that $750 will go much further than usual.


----------



## internethandle

Hooray for more Schiit stuff.
   
  I, for one, am glad to see that the next DAC contains some of the same parts as the Bifrost (namely, same DAC chip, just now two of them - obviously - for balanced, and same USB receiver), since I wasn't planning on springing for the mid-level and will be waiting for statement. Although I must admit Adapticlock sounds damned intriguing. Anyway, a nice consolation prize for those of us sitting on our Bifrosts, it really ISN'T an insta-outdated "doorstop" after all! Ha.
   
  Congrats to all the pre-orderers.


----------



## Maxvla

No pre-orders this time. Just an interest list. I assume we'll be contacted when there is a unit ready for our interest list position.


----------



## kr0gg

OH, COME ON!
   
  At first Schiit have been talking about their statement DAC that it will cost $900-$1000
  ....half a year later they were saying that it will cost around $1200
   
  and now??
   
  "If you’re looking at spending at least 2X the price of a Gungnir,"
   
  they must be kidding.
  now they say that it will cost MORE THAN $1500 ?
   
  if they continue in this manner, i believe that by august they will tell us that it will cost $2000


----------



## Sanoj

Mm, I think you're reading too much into that statement. Maybe all they're saying is that Gungir is is competitive up to the 1.5k mark. If you're willing to spend more you might be able to better the Gungir so then you'd be better of waiting for the statement DAC. That doesn't say anything about the actual price of the statement DAC.


----------



## kr0gg

They are talking exactly about Statement DAC's price. Read carefully.


----------



## estreeter

Quote: 





kr0gg said:


> if they continue in this manner, i believe that by august they will tell us that it will cost $2000


 

 Even if that was the case, there is still a very large chunk of the audio universe where a statement *anything* for 2K would be viewed as a screaming bargain. Granted, Schiit isn't Meridian (thankfully), but neither are we talking bargain-basement E-Bay kit. The goalposts keep moving in this whole 1-3K DAC arena - if Schiit are serious about making their mark in that market, they will be throwing a lot of time and money into development. Yulong and Audio-gd arent shy about charging those sorts of prices for the Reference-level kit - why would we expect a US-based manufacturer to be delivering a similar level of performance for half the price ?


----------



## Edoardo

Quote: 





kr0gg said:


> OH, COME ON!
> 
> At first Schiit have been talking about their statement DAC that it will cost $900-$1000
> ....half a year later they were saying that it will cost around $1200
> ...


 

 Man, as it is built, the Gungnir itself could cost 2000$ and be worth every penny.
   
  Find me a DAC with clock regeneration, separate 44.1 and 48 KHz multiples clocks, double DAC stages, balanced FET output stages... and if you are able to, tell the price.
   
  Or if you wish, find me an headphone amplifier with 8 power supply stages and 8 _single_ gain stages in parallel push-pull.
   
  ...And... Everything Op-Amp free.
   
  Made in the USA.
   
   
  I could name both audiophile and pro brands that build their Hi-End 1000$ or 3000$ DACs with much, much less effort.
   
  This stuff may not be a reference in their catalog, but is already top-notch, over-killingly and genially built.
   
  And costs much, much less than already-very-good, but "nothing new", and not so hi-end, stuff.
   
   
  Statement Schiit DAC and amp gonna cost 1500 $ each? Odin knows what they're going to put inside it.
   
  I'm not buying this namely "mid-range" couple just because these guys have been fulfilling their promises and made me really, really very curious and hopeful about the statement gear to come.


----------



## Llloyd

Yeah, even if the statement DAC is 1500, I imagine it will be a good value.  We'll see when the time comes.  I might just pick up an M-DAC within the next year and be done with it though.


----------



## Jason Stoddard

To answer a couple of questions, one of which came up privately, I figured I'd pop in.
   
*1. Statement products cost more than originally anticipated? *Yep. They're also very different products than we anticipated. We originally planned to have a single-ended-only, non-hardware-balanced version of the top DAC. We decided that hardware balanced was the way to go (it will still have summed single-ended output.) We also originally planned to have the top amp be a conventional volume-pot and input-switch design, now it's relay-switched stepped attenuation and relay-switched inputs. Fair warning: if you don't like clicking, steer well clear of the statement amp. It'll have 24 relays inside. 
   
*2. Black anodize?* Nope. Not gonna happen. We need to keep things simple, so silver it is. And clear anodize vs black anodize as far as heat goes is not that much different. Unplated aluminum is a disaster, but clear anodize's emissivity is 0.83, vs black's 0.86. Plus, if I ever see another black and gold Sumo faceplate, I'm going to have to get out my VHS videotape of Smokey and the Bandit. I keep flashing back to the chest-hair and gold-chain era. 
   
*3. What about this Buy Better Gear light? Does it mean I'm in trouble with a computer source? *Bottom line, probably not. The only sources we can't consistently get to work with VCXOs are satellite receivers. Most of our computers work just fine, even cheap stuff. So you're probably fine. But it'll be interesting to see, won't it?


----------



## kr0gg

Thanks, Jason.
  That cleared things up for me.


----------



## dyl1dyl

Quote: 





edoardo said:


> Man, as it is built, the Gungnir itself could cost 2000$ and be worth every penny.
> 
> Find me a DAC with clock regeneration, separate 44.1 and 48 KHz multiples clocks, double DAC stages, balanced FET output stages... and if you are able to, tell the price.
> 
> ...


 

 I absolutely agree with this. Purely from the specs and design ideology released so far, I would absolutely place the new Gungnir in the same class as DACs like the W4S Dac2 and Calyx DAC which both run about double the Gungnir. We will have to listen to them though to confirm if the Gungnir really does match up. As to the Mjolnir, I really think that Jason and all his partners have really delivered as to their claims of having technology not seen anywhere else even in their "mid range" stuff. The cyclotron topology sounds great and the simple thing is that the Mjolnir looks super competetive with lots of amps such as the Apex Arete and Hifiman EF-6 that cost noticeably more. All things said, the ultimate performance of the new products will define their value proposition but just looking at specs, the new Schiit products look like absolutely brilliant value propositions.


----------



## ninjikiran

I wonder how it would React to juli@.  I must warn you, she is very concerned about her looks and if you say shes low class she will get depressed.  I will probably wait for the statement since I already own the excellent bifrost, and while gungir would be a significant upgrade, statement should be insanity. (in short, if schiit wasn't offering more dacs I would be happy with bifrost being my end game)
   
  I wonder how mjolner will sound vs the decware taboo I am still waiting for.


----------



## Roscoeiii

For the DAC outputs, will both balanced and RCA be able to be used simultaneously? I would love to be able to run XLR to my bedroom headphone rig and RCA to my stereo. That's one of the features I miss from my Weiss DAC2


----------



## takezo

nm


----------



## achl354

if only the shipping date were closer than August, i would have paid for the new mid range DAC without second thoughts
   
  so for now, until Schiit's statement DAC is out, the Yulong D18 will do the job...... hopefully


----------



## Llloyd

Quote: 





ninjikiran said:


> I wonder how it would React to juli@.  I must warn you, she is very concerned about her looks and if you say shes low class she will get depressed.  I will probably wait for the statement since I already own the excellent bifrost, and while gungir would be a significant upgrade, statement should be insanity. (in short, if schiit wasn't offering more dacs I would be happy with bifrost being my end game)
> 
> I wonder how mjolner will sound vs the decware taboo I am still waiting for.


 


  I'm waiting on a taboo too and am very curious about this.  I feel like the taboo is incredible value though.  Not to mention I love tubes.  Plus being able to power speakers is too good for me to pass up.
   
  Needless to say I'm still curious.  Just thinking of the asgard and how I felt about it(did not like with HE-500), I imagine the taboo will be more dynamic.  I wouldn't be surprised if I was proved wrong though.  I am a tube fanboy what can I say.
   
  Taboo + CSP2 can power virtually any headphone as well so I doubt I'll be looking any further once I have the two of those.  Maybe I'll pick up the schiit statement dac when it releases though, or I might flip my bifrost for this new one depending on what my cash situation is looking like when it releases.  It's either that or the M-DAC.


----------



## shaunybaby

aaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwww but i just finished building my new Pc, great looking amps, i will prob get the new combo and call it a day with some he-6s, i love the look of schiits products and the new line up continues this great styling, i have a lyr and it has been a treat to listen to, can,t wait to hear impressions and see some real pics, great work as always jason and team


----------



## shaunybaby

just came back from reading the FAQ on the two new products, you guys make me laugh, very good reading material 
   
   
  Now you’re screwing with me!
  Just a little. Technically, Adapticlock is the industry’s most advanced jitter-reducing reclocking system. It automatically switches between VCXO and VCO reclocking, depending on the quality of your source. High-quality sources run on the VCXOs, for best jitter performance. Lower-quality sources that deviate from the range of the VCXOs are routed automatically to the VCOs, and an LED on the front panel comes on. We call this the “buy better gear” light.
   
  i love this one


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





shaunybaby said:


> We call this the “buy better gear” light.


----------



## estreeter

Sadly, for all the hooha around 'you can plug our DAC into anything and it will transform it into a world-class source !', I have to agree with Schiit on this :
   
   
 *You’re kidding. Buy better gear?*
 Yep. Sources that are outside of the industry-standard specified range of clock frequencies probably ain’t so great. However, you’re still getting clock regeneration from the VCOs, but not the better regeneration performance of the VCXOs.

 *What are some typical high-quality and low-quality sources?*
 High-quality: good CD transports, good DVD/Blu-Ray players, good music servers. Low-quality: satellite receiver, many computers, bad/cheap CD/DVD players.


----------



## estreeter

They key, IMO, is finding the aforementioned 'good music server' and a decent NAS. Get that right and the rest should fall into place. I'm still happy to mess around with voyage-mpd but I'm increasingly drawn to gear like the Marantz NA7004. Its all dollars, but might as well get it right from A to B. Juggling CDs is a bit too 1995 for me - ymmv.


----------



## Maxvla

Jason's answer to my question about computer sources (hope you don't mind):



> And yeah, Mike's "buy better gear" light (his terminology, not mine.) I think it's probably scarier than it sounds. The only sources we have that consistently don't lock with the VCXOs are satellite receivers, and one homebuilt, old/overclocked computer. You should be fine--even the motherboard SPDIF out from my new HTPC (AsRock motherboard, AMD A6 processor) locks easily. It all depends on how far the source deviates from the center frequency. Most sources aren't really that bad.


----------



## estreeter

I saw that - as someone who has had to replace parts in a host of PCs and laptops, I know just how cheaply most of them are thrown together. The internals of a lot of older machines, regardless of the pitifully slow CPU etc, were often much better - its just a fact of life that its cheaper to throw an old machine and buy a new one than try to upgrade when Intel changes the motherboard goalposts every 6 months ..... 
   
  I know similar complaints have been made about various audio components that should be better specced for the asking price, but companies like Marantz know they cant get away with the kind of crap Dell and others have been fobbing off on the public for years. I was shocked to see photos of poorly soldered joints in Leben amps earlier this year, but I would expect that someone at Leben has taken personal responsibility for fixing issues like that - perhaps I'm naive. In any case, if Marantz drop the ball with firmware or whatever, you can rest assured that the world will hear about it.


----------



## olor1n

Anyone know where I can get a quality glass toslink to mini toslink cable from? I've mainly used usb but I've come to like the clarity of optical from my MacBook. Unfortunately it skips and the Bifrost clicks after a few songs. I'm hoping it's not an issue with my dac's optical input.


----------



## prtuc2

Quote: 





olor1n said:


> Anyone know where I can get a quality glass toslink to mini toslink cable from? I've mainly used usb but I've come to like the clarity of optical from my MacBook. Unfortunately it skips and the Bifrost clicks after a few songs. I'm hoping it's not an issue with my dac's optical input.


 


  I think someone already post the link earlier in the thread, but here it is for future reference.  I know you don't live in US, so the shipping price probably going to cost you a bit.


----------



## olor1n

Shipping is expensive, but their cables are exactly what I'm after. Thank you prtuc2.


----------



## TheGrumpyOldMan

Quote:


olor1n said:


> Anyone know where I can get a quality glass toslink to mini toslink cable from? I've mainly used usb but I've come to like the clarity of optical from my MacBook. Unfortunately it skips and the Bifrost clicks after a few songs. I'm hoping it's not an issue with my dac's optical input.


 
  I use a similar setup, and something similar happen a couple of times. In my case it was actually the player software, in my case BitPerfect, which I guess was momentarily overwhelmed in a couple of songs (or rather switching rapidly between them), depending on settings I guess. Just playing the same through iTunes was a simple test and that worked without hitches. After adjusting settings and letting it play through songs, BP was OK too.


----------



## olor1n

I also use BitPerfect, but tracks also skip mid-song when just using iTunes. My BitPerfect settings are fine, it generally plays without a hitch via usb. I'm hoping the issue is with the generic 2m optical (toslink to mini toslink) cable I'm using. I've just hooked up my PS3 using a different and shorter optical cable and have only had it skip once mid-song. It played fine after that, whereas with my MBP it continues to skip and the Bifrost clicks non-stop (seemingly unable to reestablish sync). My entire library is in alac on my MBP, so I'm hoping the Siflex cable solves this issue (spinning CD's is so 1995).


----------



## TheGrumpyOldMan

Yeah, the nonstop clicking is unusual. At least while music is playing, but not with no music and just system sounds: the Macbook shuts off the digital when not in use so when only playing system sounds, the Bifrost will click repeatedly, turning on to play the sound, then off again. This has been discussed elsewhere at length, so I assume that's not your case.
   
  BitPerfect seems to be quite the resource hog though, sometimes anyway. I have had it skip entire tracks midway through, or not skip them at all when actually doing so in iTunes but as the author explains that may be affected by the settings. One thing that springs to mind: Sometimes over USB you have more natively supported bitrates for your DAC, which get streamed right through (easy) while the optical out is often more limited, so BitPerfect may have to up/downsample the -same song- depending on your settings (harder & more error-prone)?
   
  I'm using a fairly generic 6" cable and have not had these issues except 1-2 times in general (like your PS3 test) with either this cable or the one from my iPad dock to the DAC (but that may have been a choke in the streaming...) So hopefully the cable upgrade will help!


----------



## wkhanna

Quote: 





olor1n said:


> Anyone know where I can get a quality glass toslink to mini toslink cable from? I've mainly used usb but I've come to like the clarity of optical from my MacBook. Unfortunately it skips and the Bifrost clicks after a few songs. I'm hoping it's not an issue with my dac's optical input.


 


 This is the one I use.
http://www.lifatec.com/toslink2.html


----------



## sridhar3

Quote:


wkhanna said:


> This is the one I use.
> http://www.lifatec.com/toslink2.html


 

 Just ordered one.  Hopefully it works well.


----------



## Misterrogers

Used one for awhile with Bifrost. It was a noticeable improvement (TME, IMO) over the Blue Jeans optical (I believe it's a plastic fiber). Very happy with it, and used it up till installing my Audiophilleo which is USB.
  
  Quote: 





sridhar3 said:


> Quote:
> 
> Just ordered one.  Hopefully it works well.


----------



## sridhar3

Quote:


misterrogers said:


> Used one for awhile with Bifrost. It was a noticeable improvement (TME, IMO) over the Blue Jeans optical (I believe it's a plastic fiber). Very happy with it, and used it up till installing my Audiophilleo which is USB.


 
   
  I have an AP1 running out of a Vaunix Lab Brick, but I was curious to see how TOSLINK compares.  After I'm done with my little experiment, I'll probably use the cable to hook my PS3 up to my DAC.


----------



## wkhanna

I have a 10" run from my NAS to my main 2-ch system.
  I went with optical due to length requrirement in order to avoid potential shielding/interference issues.
  I'm V happy with this setup, it is significantly better than my Cambridge Audio 640 v2 CDp that uses dual Wolfson chips.
  The 640 is the same basic circuit as the DacMagic.


----------



## agisthos

Last year I said I would do a comparison between the Bifrost and the Calyx DAC. Better late than never? Speakers used were Vapor Sound Cirrus, Primare i30 integrated amp and CA 751 as source. Only listened via spdif coaxial. The Calyx was running off a rechargable battery supply.

 In previous shootouts I liked the Bifrost better than the Audio-GD NFB-3 and the CA's mock DacMagic output stage. But the Calyx bested it in every department. The differences was subtle, but things like texture and tone of a bass instument which were readily apparent in the Calyx, was obscured in the Bifrost to resemble just a 'bass beat'. The midrange was more sorted with different instruments more seperated and easier to follow than the Bifrost. Highs were quite similar between both dac's.
   
  The Calyx is apparently designed around the Xmos USB input for best performance, with the spdif an afterthought, so perhaps the difference would be a touch wider if the comparison was done with a computer front end.

 The Calyx is also 5x the price of the Bifrost, and the difference was subtle so I expect not many would feel the price increase justified. This all bodes well for the forthcoming Gunjir DAC, which at half the price of the Calyx will at least equal or possibly surpass its performance.


----------



## internethandle

Don't mean to derail the mid-tier discussion, but thought I'd point out John Darko's review of the Bifrost over at ToneAudio:
   
http://www.tonepublications.com/review/the-schiit-bifrost-dac/
   
  I've always thought John's reviews of DACs (and he's done quite a few!) were well written and thoughtful. Anyway, he primarily parses out the differences between the Bifrost and the Audio-GD NFB 2.1, which he reviewed very favorably a while back. Bifrost fairs very well, if I don't say so myself!


----------



## agisthos

I had the Audio-GD NFB-3 and the Schiit Bifrost. I liked the Bifrost better, but having opened them both up, I can tell the Bifrost could be even better with a power supply such as found in the Audio-GD. The Bifrost power supply is just your stock LM 337/317 regulators. While to be expected at this bargain price, it seems Schiit put the money into the quality output stage instead.


----------



## weitn

Two days ago the USB on my Bifrost stopped working. My laptop (running on Windows XP Pro) was not able to detect it anymore. I have tried reinstalling the USB driver. Even though I have already plug in the USB cable but the installer kept on asking me to plug in the device/Bifrost. At first I thought it could be the AudioQuest Forest USB cable. So I tried with another USB cable. Still the same issue. Then I tried with my other two laptops (Vista Business and Windows 7 Pro). Still the same issue. Does anyone face similar issue before?


----------



## Defiant00

Quote: 





weitn said:


> Two days ago the USB on my Bifrost stopped working. My laptop (running on Windows XP Pro) was not able to detect it anymore. I have tried reinstalling the USB driver. Even though I have already plug in the USB cable but the installer kept on asking me to plug in the device/Bifrost. At first I thought it could be the AudioQuest Forest USB cable. So I tried with another USB cable. Still the same issue. Then I tried with my other two laptops (Vista Business and Windows 7 Pro). Still the same issue. Does anyone face similar issue before?


 


  First I've heard of anyone having this issue. Since you've tried it on different computers and different cables it does sound like something's wrong with the Bifrost. If you're comfortable doing so, you may want to open up the Bifrost and see if the USB card might have come loose (due to the modular design).


----------



## ninjikiran

Irs just a few screws I would definately check it out.  I don't know if the USB card has an LED on it because mines is USB-Free at the moment but alot of USB chips have a diagnostics LED.
   
  Otherwise its the USB card that went bad.  I would also be careful with expensive USB cables~  they make alot of claims and while I don't think an improperly wired usb cable would work(Not an expert, can't claim to understand its inner workings) even low voltages if improperly routed can burn out a chip. If not right away, over time.  Generally with digital components though it happens right away given how sensitive they are.  I single out expensive cables because they are made to be "different" from standard usb cables.


----------



## weitn

Quote: 





weitn said:


> Two days ago the USB on my Bifrost stopped working. My laptop (running on Windows XP Pro) was not able to detect it anymore. I have tried reinstalling the USB driver. Even though I have already plug in the USB cable but the installer kept on asking me to plug in the device/Bifrost. At first I thought it could be the AudioQuest Forest USB cable. So I tried with another USB cable. Still the same issue. Then I tried with my other two laptops (Vista Business and Windows 7 Pro). Still the same issue. Does anyone face similar issue before?


 

 Jason replied immediately (good customer service) to my email. He gave me another USB driver to install. However, the USB driver does not fix the issue. I am getting my company system administrator to take a look at this issue (checking the Windows and reinstall the old and new USB drivers). My company administrator also has a Mac which we will use it to test it.
   
  Quote: 





defiant00 said:


> First I've heard of anyone having this issue. Since you've tried it on different computers and different cables it does sound like something's wrong with the Bifrost. If you're comfortable doing so, you may want to open up the Bifrost and see if the USB card might have come loose (due to the modular design).


 
   
  Quote: 





ninjikiran said:


> Irs just a few screws I would definately check it out.  I don't know if the USB card has an LED on it because mines is USB-Free at the moment but alot of USB chips have a diagnostics LED.
> 
> Otherwise its the USB card that went bad.  I would also be careful with expensive USB cables~  they make alot of claims and while I don't think an improperly wired usb cable would work(Not an expert, can't claim to understand its inner workings) even low voltages if improperly routed can burn out a chip. If not right away, over time.  Generally with digital components though it happens right away given how sensitive they are.  I single out expensive cables because they are made to be "different" from standard usb cables.


 
   
  Thanks for the advice. Opening up Bifrost will be last option. However, I will ask Jason first before I open up Bifrost. I have already single out the usb cable.


----------



## Austin Morrow

I'm very interested in hearing how the Bifrost will compare to the DAC HD cable by Halide Design, seeing as they're in the same price range and ones a little more "simple" than the other.


----------



## weitn

Quote: 





weitn said:


> Jason replied immediately (good customer service) to my email. He gave me another USB driver to install. However, the USB driver does not fix the issue. I am getting my company system administrator to take a look at this issue (checking the Windows and reinstall the old and new USB drivers). My company administrator also has a Mac which we will use it to test it.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the advice. Opening up Bifrost will be last option. However, I will ask Jason first before I open up Bifrost. I have already single out the usb cable.


 

 Well... my Bifrost is on the way back to Schiit office. Been using the E17 as the DAC since few days back and it felt like downgrading. I mean, still listenable but the some of the listening pleasure is gone.


----------



## Gangstel

Pls help me to choose alternative to Bifrost at this price range or recomend me to buy Biifrost  My alternatives HRT Music Streamer II, Arcam rDAC, http://www.ebay.com/itm/Valab-WM8741-24bit-192k-USB-DAC-Dual-WM8741-Balanced-XLR-Output-Black-Face-/270936744188?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f1516a0fc , something from audiogd


----------



## aural bliss

i am looking to upgrade from the audinst dac.
   
  so far i have narrowed it down to:
  audio-gd nfb 3.1
  schiit bifrost
  grant fidelity tubedac-11
   
  all are in the same price range
   
  my headphone amp is matrix m-stage and i will be using the audio-gd DI for a coax interface
   
  im leaning towards the schiit bifrost but the feedback on the nfb 3.1 is making me reconsider.  which would you guys get?


----------



## Llloyd

I think most people in this thread have the bifrost or favor it.  Probably not the best place to ask


----------



## Jason Stoddard

I certainly favor it!
   
  In other news, we're looking for input on SACD and DSD--your chance to win a Bifrost:
   
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/606053/the-schiit-sacd-dsd-research-thread-your-chance-to-win-a-bifrost


----------



## blankdisc

Don't know about NFB-3.1, but i do own NFB-3. Bifrost is better in my opinion. In comparision NFB-3 is just a little too smooth, not as transparent as Bifrost.
  Quote: 





aural bliss said:


> i am looking to upgrade from the audinst dac.
> 
> so far i have narrowed it down to:
> audio-gd nfb 3.1
> ...


----------



## HeyWaj10

So, I'm not sure what happened, but now my computer isn't playing back via digital coax.  When I first installed the drivers and got everything setup, it worked fine, as did the USB input.  Now, when I choose the SPDIF input in JRiver Media Jukebox (or iTunes) and on the Bifrost selector, I'm getting nothing.  Dead silence.
   
  Do I need to uninstall/re-install the drivers?  USB works fine, but would like to switch between the two for AB comparisons.
   
  Any ideas?
   
  Thanks!


----------



## Hero Kid

The first post is finally back up to date guys. Sorry for anyone that felt neglected during the past month - life has been busy!


----------



## HI-BIT

The Bifrost is an exceptional piece of audio hardware. As an EE, I really appreciate the performance and quality of the Bifrost. It actually amazes me that Schiit can do this at such a low price point. It took around 200 hours of break-in for the sonics to smooth out in the highs. My only gripe is that the LEDs are too bright. A different resistor value would fix this. I am also impressed with Jason's fast email response and excellent customer service.


----------



## fenderf4i

hi-bit said:


> The Bifrost is an exceptional piece of audio hardware. It took around 200 hours of break-in for the sonics to smooth out in the highs




Is it possible to burn in a DAC by outputting music to it, but keeping the attached amp off?

I would think it wouldn't make a difference having the amp on or off, or does it?


----------



## HI-BIT

Yep. Leave it off and run a disc on repeat or white noise.


----------



## fenderf4i

hi-bit said:


> Yep. Leave it off and run a disc on repeat or white noise.




Fantastic. Thanks!!!!


----------



## AppleDappleman

I hate how you guys love your bitfrost so much that I never see it being sold in the F/S forum!


----------



## Kremer930

Wait until the release of the intermediate gear. There will be some people upgrading I am sure.


----------



## Uberzone

Jason when you are planning to release a modular upgrade for Bifrost?


----------



## weitn

Quote: 





weitn said:


> Well... my Bifrost is on the way back to Schiit office. Been using the E17 as the DAC since few days back and it felt like downgrading. I mean, still listenable but the some of the listening pleasure is gone.


 
   
  I am glad my Bifrost is on the way back to me. There is a small issue with the USB card which rarely happens but it happens. The most important thing is the service from Jason is always prompt and fast.


----------



## RedBull

Quote: 





appledappleman said:


> I hate how you guys love your bitfrost so much that I never see it being sold in the F/S forum!


 
   

 Hang on, I just saw one here: http://www.head-fi.org/t/607033/schiit-bifrost go, quickly grab it!


----------



## RedBull

Quote: 





aural bliss said:


> i am looking to upgrade from the audinst dac.
> 
> so far i have narrowed it down to:
> audio-gd nfb 3.1
> ...


 
   
  Quote: 





llloyd said:


> I think most people in this thread have the bifrost or favor it.  Probably not the best place to ask


 
   
  Yeah!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  And if you ask in Audio Gd thread, then your answer will be NFB-3.
  I have NFB-2, and I heard Bifrost, both are excellent products, I think it is then back to you, what flavor are you looking at?
  Tonality wise, NFB-2 (similiar to NFB-3) is weightier, Bifrost is 'clearer' IMO.


----------



## AppleDappleman

Quote: 





redbull said:


> Hang on, I just saw one here: http://www.head-fi.org/t/607033/schiit-bifrost go, quickly grab it!


 
   
  Oh yea I actually contacted gasmd. 

 He was very helpful and if he had the the version without the USB I would have gladly done business with him. At the moment, I don't need the USB because I would be using SPDIF the whole time. Plus it would save me much money. I'll wait near June most likely haha


----------



## Naphta

Where would the best place to get one of these in the UK at a reasonable price?


----------



## orkney

Quote: 





appledappleman said:


> I hate how you guys love your bitfrost so much that I never see it being sold in the F/S forum!


 
   
   
  I sold mine -- sound was fine but was unimpressed with fit n' finish, power line hum and switching noise. Looking forward to more news about the intermediate and statement products, but did not find the Bifrost to my taste.
   
  best,
   
  o


----------



## fenderf4i

Quote: 





orkney said:


> I sold mine -- sound was fine but was unimpressed with fit n' finish, power line hum and switching noise. Looking forward to more news about the intermediate and statement products, but did not find the Bifrost to my taste.
> 
> best,
> 
> o


 
  Were you hearing the power line hum using any of the inputs, or just one specific input e.g.: USB?


----------



## Uncle00Jesse

i'm still really enjoying the bifrost. Some of the sibilance issues i was having havent gone away over time. Also the clicking coming from the unit itself every time you change applications or click something...rather annoying but I can't complain on the sound front too much.


----------



## shaunybaby

i really am looking forward to reading what people say about this gungnir, i hope that i will own one soonish, but im not so sure about this clicking i don,t know weather it will bug me or not.


----------



## grokit

Hopefully the Gungnir won't click.


----------



## Defiant00

Edit: I initially posted that Jason had said it will also click by design but I was mis-remembering from this post: http://www.head-fi.org/t/545842/schiit-dacs-bifrost-and-gungnir-down-one-to-go-the-information-and-anticipation-thread/2610#post_8265633 which was about the statement amp.


----------



## Uncle00Jesse

Just as a follow up, i got a new desktop (Alienware) that has optical and coax out...its pretty awesome. however, the clicking has gotten even more prominent than over USB for some reason. you can hear it through headphones and during random application surfing. extremely annoying. i also found that using coax into the pc vs usb sounds much better. more clean, and airier sound.


----------



## olor1n

Do you get continuous clicking kick in mid song, causing playback to stutter? That's an issue I've tried to live with since day 1 but I'm now at my wits end with it. The frustrating thing is that it seems to kick in randomly. I don't know what triggers it but rarely now do I go through a listening session without it occurring.


----------



## fenderf4i

olor1n said:


> Do you get continuous clicking kick in mid song, causing playback to stutter? That's an issue I've tried to live with since day 1 but I'm now at my wits end with it. The frustrating thing is that it seems to kick in randomly. I don't know what triggers it but rarely now do I go through a listening session without it occurring.




Is it happening with audio players that output in hog mode?


----------



## grokit

Is the USB receiver the source of the clicking?


----------



## sphinxvc

Quote: 





olor1n said:


> Do you get continuous clicking kick in mid song, causing playback to stutter? That's an issue I've tried to live with since day 1 but I'm now at my wits end with it. The frustrating thing is that it seems to kick in randomly. I don't know what triggers it but rarely now do I go through a listening session without it occurring.


 
   
  That would drive me up the wall.


----------



## Kremer930

Didn't we already determine that the clicking was related to the computer changing sample rate or, is this something different?


----------



## olor1n

Quote: 





kremer930 said:


> Didn't we already determine that the clicking was related to the computer changing sample rate or, is this something different?


 
   
  Why would it change sample rates _mid song_, and at random points? No, it's not the single click that occurs before a track that's a different resolution to the one played before. _THAT_, I can live with. This is continuous clicking, causing playback to stutter and often only alleviated (sometimes not) by turning the Bifrost on/off for a while. The issue occurs irrespective of input on the Bifrost. It happens through toslink, as well as usb, from my MBP as source, as well as the odd times I use my PS3 as a CD player. It sometimes happens when there isn't even a track playing. On the MBP it occurs when using BitPerfect (which I believe runs in hog mode by default) or when playing just iTunes by itself. I recall it happening when I also used Fidelia for playback. System sound is set to output to a different device. I've also tested different cables and witnessed it happen from other MacBooks I've had the Bifrost hooked up to.
   
  I've tried everything to isolate the problem. The frustrating thing is sometimes it doesn't rear its head, but other times I give up on my listening session because turning everything on/off doesn't resolve the continuous clicking.
   
  I've spoken to Jason about this issue and awaiting a resolution.
   
  edit: I've just turned my Bifrost on for the first time today. Haven't even started up iTunes and the damn thing is clicking away at me like it's trying to communicate something in Morse code.


----------



## ocswing

Quote: 





olor1n said:


> edit: I've just turned my Bifrost on for the first time today. Haven't even started up iTunes and the damn thing is clicking away at me like it's trying to communicate something in Morse code.


 
   
  You might be on to something. It's trying to communicate what the issue is in morse code! Translate it quickly!
   
  (Joking aside, that really sucks and is definitely not normal behavior. Hopefully you have a resolution soon.)


----------



## Kremer930

Agree. It does appear to be the Bifrost. 

Is the clicking still the relay clicking or is it at a signal level inside the headphones?

Is there any way that you can borrow another Bifrost? If you were in Perth you could try mine.


----------



## olor1n

It's clicking from the Bifrost itself. It interrupts playback when it occurs, resulting in tracks stuttering. After my edit above I managed to get through 9 tracks of Herbie Hancock's River: The Joni Letters (24bit/96khz, ALAC via usb). I got machine gun clicking 30 seconds into the last track. Turned the dac on/off a few times but still some clicking. It seems to have just come good. Not sure why.
   
  And before anyone asks, it's not the particular audio file. Most of my albums are standard 16/44.1 ALAC, with a handful of 24/96. The clicking has never occurred in the same spot and my files play flawlessly through my active speakers connected directly into my MBP's hp out (i.e. when the Bifrost is bypassed).


----------



## grokit

Are you using straight iTunes for playback?


----------



## olor1n

I use iTunes with BitPerfect. BitPerfect is set up to change bit and sample to native on the fly i.e. no up-sampling. It's worked flawlessly with other dacs in the past. The clicking issue also occurs when iTunes is run by itself, irrespective of bit/sample settings in Audio Midi Setup. The clicking also occurs when my PS3 is source.


----------



## TheGrumpyOldMan

I've been using BitPerfect on my MBP to the Bifrost via TOSlink (non-USB version) and only experienced the clicking when sound is turning off & on (ex. system sounds with no music playing) or when switching bitrates (ex.: playlists mixing 16/44.1 tracks and 24/96 ones) BitPerfect occasionally hickups, but it's usually by skipping the beginning/end of a tracks, or catching up with a fast-forward, but I haven't heard it affect the Bifrost.
   
  I would have thought maybe an unstable signal through a faulty cable, but since you already tried a variety of connections, I'd say there's indeed something wrong with the Bifrost, maybe unstable solder or loose connector... I'd contact Jason at Schiit directly and see what he has to say, maybe RMA'ing it...


----------



## O8h7w

From my understanding of electronics (which is frankly more hobbyist than I'd like), I suppose the Bifrost would behave that way if it had serious trouble locking to the source signal. Now, since you've tried different sources, and through the different inputs, that would point to the oscillators within the Bifrost. (or something along that signal path) And here is the limit of my current knowledge, I don't know what the oscillators in question are, hence I don't have a clue as to whether they can be damaged or go out of tune. But I'm pretty confident Jason has the answer.
   
  Here's hoping Jason will let us know what went wrong.


----------



## adhoc

Just want to mention that I am pretty pissed that Schiit basically threw its Australia/New Zealand customers under a bus by striking an exclusive deal with a local distributor - i.e. we cannot order direct from Schiit anymore, and must go through this distributor.
   
  Which added absolutely nothing to the equation for the customer, except a $150 markup and an unnecessary middleman.


----------



## TIMITS

I have a different point of view.  During the last 6 months I have had two Internet purchases, one related to Head-Fi, which total over $1000 and it's looking like I may not see either purchase.  It's much easier to interact with a company locally.  Also you haven't factored in delivery charges.  As an experiment I went to the Schiit Audio website and added a Lyr amp to the shopping cart and the delivery charges to Australia were between $64 & $218.  The Australian site you are referring to has free express delivery on all orders.


----------



## adhoc

Quote: 





timits said:


> I have a different point of view.  During the last 6 months I have had two Internet purchases, one related to Head-Fi, which total over $1000 and it's looking like I may not see either purchase.  It's much easier to interact with a company locally.  Also you haven't factored in delivery charges.  As an experiment I went to the Schiit Audio website and added a Lyr amp to the shopping cart and the delivery charges to Australia were between $64 & $218.  The Australian site you are referring to has free express delivery on all orders.


 
   
  I'm not in Melbourne and have no plans to go there, so for all intents and purposes I might as well be in a different country. And what about the NZ customers? 
   
  Really, what is the benefit here, except for the ability to audition for Melbourne based folk and those willing to fork out to travel to Melbourne?
   
  If I'm in Perth or Auckland and purchasing over the internet the "purchasing experience" is for all intents and purposes the same, except now I have to pay $150 more for the product gets shipped to him first, then shipped to me - which makes me wonder, why the need for the middleman?
   
  RMAs are no faster as he apparently only gets stock from Schiit once you place an order, so it's not as if he has a swag of amps/DACs out in a storeroom to do a swap.
   
  Not sure what level of math you did but $150 is (a lot) more than $64 shipping. I am sorry for your bad purchasing experiences but this is purchasing from Schiit, not an unknown quantity.
   
  So like I said, an unnecessary middleman who has only added on to the equation the additional intra-Australia shipping, 10% GST, his operating costs, and whatever "currency fluctuations" we might experience.


----------



## Argo Duck

^ I'm alarmed to hear this. I bought my Lyr via Australia but my Bifrost direct from Schiit. Anything imported from Australia attracts 15% GST over and above the 10% import GST into Australia. That is, cost is 11.5% (1.10 x 1.15 - 1.15 ) more than direct would be 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  I prefer direct from the manufacturer purchases., e.g. Schiit, Audez'e, Meier audio, Decware. One enjoys a relationship direct with the designer/builder, perfect for resolving issues. Middlemen, even if they're very, very good, can't provide this level of support.
   
  Looks like there may be fewer Aussies & Kiwis with Mjolnir/Gungir in their future than could've been...


----------



## olor1n

I've had 3 Bifrosts sent from the US to Australia, 2 I've had to send back, and the 3rd I'm now troubleshooting with Jason. Considering my bad luck with the Bifrost, I welcome the emergence of a local distributer. Not sure if post sale support will be more efficient as a result, but there is some comfort in knowing that it's only within domestic borders. I'd pay a little extra for this, but would certainly look elsewhere if the markup was unreasonable.


----------



## Argo Duck

Yeah, you definitely have had a bad run with the Bifrost olor1n. I did wonder about a sagging mains voltage at different times of day, but that's sheer speculation and pre-supposes the Bifrost's power supply isn't coping. (You could check this by running off a UPS if you have one that produces real sine wave).
   
  Anyway,  hope it gets sorted soon.


----------



## Maxvla

If the store really does not carry stock and only orders from Schiit when you order from them, that's not a dealer. That's just a middle man, and it needs to be fixed because it serves no purpose for Schiit or the customer to do this. A dealer is supposed to carry a full line (or nearly so) of the products they are authorized to carry and have sufficient quantity to handle day to day business without resorting to special orders except on rare occasions. The manufacturer is supposed to get the benefit of selling bulk quantities to the dealer, and the customer is supposed to be able to rely on that quantity to get their product when they walk in or quickly and cheaply by 'local' shipping.

I don't expect Jason to publicly comment on this, but I hope he reads it and fixes the situation if it indeed is as it's been reported.


----------



## shaunybaby

well i think we all need picking up so tell us what was awesome about your day in this thread


----------



## olor1n

Quote:


argo duck said:


> Yeah, you definitely have had a bad run with the Bifrost olor1n. I did wonder about a sagging mains voltage at different times of day, but that's sheer speculation and pre-supposes the Bifrost's power supply isn't coping. (You could check this by running off a UPS if you have one that produces real sine wave).
> 
> Anyway,  hope it gets sorted soon.



   
   
  I've also wondered if my current issue with the Bifrost is power related. Unfortunately I don't have a UPS to test this theory. I have the Bifrost plugged into the same power board as my Lyr and other appliances. Wouldn't the Lyr and other devices suffer the same issue as well if power is the cause?
   
  Btw, Jason has asked George from Addicted to Audio to assist me with my Bifrost issue. This is above and beyond considering I bought the unit from Schiit directly, well before A2A became the distributor here.


----------



## Jason Stoddard

Quote: 





maxvla said:


> If the store really does not carry stock and only orders from Schiit when you order from them, that's not a dealer. That's just a middle man, and it needs to be fixed because it serves no purpose for Schiit or the customer to do this. A dealer is supposed to carry a full line (or nearly so) of the products they are authorized to carry and have sufficient quantity to handle day to day business without resorting to special orders except on rare occasions. The manufacturer is supposed to get the benefit of selling bulk quantities to the dealer, and the customer is supposed to be able to rely on that quantity to get their product when they walk in or quickly and cheaply by 'local' shipping.
> I don't expect Jason to publicly comment on this, but I hope he reads it and fixes the situation if it indeed is as it's been reported.


 
   
  The distributor is a stocking distributor. A *seriously* stocking distributor. And they're stepping up above and beyond as necessary to serve customers in Australia, as evidenced by olor1n's experience. This isn't a decision that was made lightly, nor on a whim, nor when drunk, nor over a game of golf at the exclusive country club, nor over kickbacks and cigars, nor over backroom deals with chicks and drugs . . . you get the picture.


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> The distributor is a stocking distributor. A *seriously* stocking distributor. And they're stepping up above and beyond as necessary to serve customers in Australia, as evidenced by olor1n's experience. This isn't a decision that was made lightly, nor on a whim, nor when drunk, nor over a game of golf at the exclusive country club, nor over kickbacks and cigars, nor over backroom deals with chicks and drugs . . . *you get the picture.*


 
   
  No, not really.  Could you elaborate on the chicks and drugs part?  Pics would be great.


----------



## grokit

I want to make a deal while drunk, with chicks and drugs and smoking a cigar in the backroom of a country club


----------



## Jason Stoddard

Guys, we're nerds here. Note the "nor." Closest I've gotten to deals like that is the fiction I write. Sorry to disappoint!


----------



## bruce108

Face it, citizens of Oz, the problem is that we have six major cities, and for the level of sales here, six different distributors would be overkill.
   
  Melbourne has something like 4 million people, Sydney more than that. If you can only have one shop-front, that's the obvious choice.
   
  So at least _some _customers can listen to the gear. And the local Schiit distributor provides an excellent room for listening, plus expert help. This costs.


----------



## BournePerfect

Bifrost >>>>>>SBT=Peachtree DACiT.
   
  I have an SBT feeding a Bifrost/TTVJ FET-A/HD800 rig and to my ears the Bifrost is easily the best dac. The transparency and instrument separation set it apart from both the DACiT ($450) via coax/toslink, as well as the SBT's analog outputs. Perhaps the craziest thing is the DACiT sounds identical (read: EXACTLY) the same as the SBT rca outs. This goes against the few reviews of the DACiT (both professional and personal)-but in my system that is absolutely the case.
   
  FWIW, I've also owned an NFB 3.1, which was marginally better than the SBT, and the Bifrost is a step above that. Even though I was never a fan of the Asgard amp I owned at one point-the performance of the Bifrost as definitely perked up my ears and I can't wait to hear what Schiit has in store with their higher end dacs later this year. Back to Amazon goes the DACiT!
   
  -Daniel


----------



## Argo Duck

Sorry for the slow reply oror1n - I don't visit often any more.
   
  That's great about Jason's support - there was never any doubt about that!
   
  I don't think the other appliances would _necessarily_ be effected., e.g. might be some component failing in the Bifrost's P.S. Sheer speculation and if this is at all likely I'm sure Jason already thought of it/rejected it. Guess we'll know soon.
  Quote: 





olor1n said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> argo duck said:
> ...


----------



## Wahoa

Quote: 





olor1n said:


> Btw, Jason has asked George from Addicted to Audio to assist me with my Bifrost issue. This is above and beyond considering I bought the unit from Schiit directly, well before A2A became the distributor here.


 
   
  That's good to hear, given that my Bifrost has another 4½ years of warranty remaining, and I too purchased from Schiit directly. If I have any problems, I imagine dealing with a local distributor will make things much easier.


----------



## GeorgeNapalm

My Bifrost clicked whenever I had an incoming Skype message. I cured that by disabling Windows feature of reducing volume whenever a communication activity occurs (by going Start -> Control Panel -> Hardware and Sound -> Sound -> Communications tab and choosing "Do nothing"). That's for Windows 7.


----------



## O8h7w

Since adjusting the volume shouldn't (and as far as I know doesn't) change the sample rate, even in Windows, that seems really odd. Are you sure you didn't change any other sound settings at the same time - or somewhere close in time?


----------



## elwappo99

Did we ever hear any final results from the DSD research thread Schiit posted? Will the statement or Gugnir have DSD decoding? I doesn't look like the Gugnir has a HDMI input, which would be pretty necessary to be compatible with most SACD players.


----------



## Kremer930

From memory Jason said that most people didn't care about it but those that did were strongly in favor. Schiit will monitor the DSD landscape and determine closer to release. I think he also mentioned that because of the modular design that an upgrade board could be done at a later stage.


----------



## elwappo99

Quote: 





kremer930 said:


> From memory Jason said that most people didn't care about it but those that did were strongly in favor. Schiit will monitor the DSD landscape and determine closer to release. I think he also mentioned that because of the modular design that an upgrade board could be done at a later stage.


 
   
  Interesting. Would that be for the Gungnir or the statement?


----------



## Maxvla

Statement. Gungnir is done afaik.


----------



## grokit

Well the statement should definitely have DSD, with an upgrade path. No compromises!


----------



## Kremer930

But most people weren't interested in it. I agree that perhaps it is a whizz bang USB module or something that could be added later on. 

Although that said....I would probably grab it just in case...as I am going to grab all of the options anyhow.


----------



## grokit

I wonder if DSD will be an optional add-on for the Gungnir :tongue_smile:


----------



## elwappo99

Quote: 





grokit said:


> I wonder if DSD will be an optional add-on for the Gungnir


 
   
   
  If the Gungnir had that, I would seriously consider purchasing it. If it had DSD decoding built in via HDMI, Mr. Schiit better look out, because he would be smothered in kisses.


----------



## Anaxilus

I think you guys have it wrong.  The Bifrost and Gungnir can have optional boards made for DSD later if the demand and landscape supports it.  The Statement is an entirely different animal and would require a separate breakout box.


----------



## grokit

Will the statement DAC feature digital attenuation a volume knob?


----------



## Jason Stoddard

Quote: 





anaxilus said:


> I think you guys have it wrong.  The Bifrost and Gungnir can have optional boards made for DSD later if the demand and landscape supports it.  The Statement is an entirely different animal and would require a separate breakout box.


 
   
  Bingo.


----------



## judmarc

anaxilus said:


> I think you guys have it wrong.  The Bifrost and Gungnir can have optional boards made for DSD later if the demand and landscape supports it.  The Statement is an entirely different animal and would require a separate breakout box.


   
  Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> Bingo.


 
   
  Well, Anaxilus, since you seem to be channeling Schiit at the moment, any other thoughts about anything at all to do with the statement DAC?


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





judmarc said:


> Well, Anaxilus, since you seem to be channeling Schiit at the moment, any other thoughts about anything at all to do with the statement DAC?


 
   
  Nothing other than I'll be grabbing one.  I have no fingernails left, save the bamboo slivers for Jason.


----------



## O8h7w

Quote: 





grokit said:


> Will the statement DAC feature digital attenuation a volume knob?


 
   
  Nope, this post was easily found from the handy first post of this thread:
   
  Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> A couple of quick answers:
> 
> 1. No combo deals, unless we're allowed to raise the price on the products to the levels they should sell at, then provide a discount from there. Kidding, of course.
> 2. No analog inputs on any DAC product, _*no volume controls, nothing preamplifierish*_. Too many compromises.
> ...


----------



## grokit

Thanks, I thought I remembered something like that but wasn't sure that it applied to all models. Not sure how a defeatable volume control could compromise the sound it it's defeated.


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





grokit said:


> Thanks, I thought I remembered something like that but wasn't sure that it applied to all models. Not sure how a defeatable volume control could compromise the sound it it's defeated.


 
   
  Perhaps the implication is the only way to defeat it is to remove it/not have it at all?


----------



## Fickle-Friend

very interested in an all balanced affair.


----------



## shaunybaby

im starting to get some money together to buy this mid range dac, hopefully there will be a date about how long they are off.


----------



## MickeyVee

To make a long story short.. I purchased a gently used Lyr a few days ago and wasn't all that blown away.  Rolled the stock tubes with a pair of Amperex and it was a little better but no 'Holy Schiit' yet.  I just took my PS Audio DLIII from my main A/V system and replaced the Matrix Mini-i I was using as a DAC. Well, 'Holy Schiit', nailed it.
   
  I just subscribed to this thread yesterday and haven't had time to go through the 180+ pages so please excuse the question if it's a repeat..
   
  Any opinions on the BiFrost versus the PS Audio DLIIIL  If it's even in the same league, I'm in.  The DLIII is suppose to be a warmer DAC with great bass.  What I've read of the BiFrost is that it's pretty flat and very detailed.  Will I lose the richness and bass from the DLIII and trade it off for linearity and detail?  Not sure which direction to go. Would love the Schiit stack but I'm really loving the Lyr/DLIII combo.  Cant really afford another DLIII (expensive in Canada).
  Thanks! M


----------



## Anaxilus

Some impressions from a set of ears I trust.
   
http://www.head-fi.org/t/603218/schiit-mjolnir-headphone-amplifier#post_8427079
   
  I've been a fan of the BifRost from the first time I heard it.  It wasn't w/o issues but it nailed the important things which for the price is great.  If you can manage, I would look to the Gungnir as a worthwhile upgrade over the BifRost kicking things up to the next level.
   
  I plan on listening for myself tomorrow.


----------



## olor1n

Odd issues aside, I'm also a fan of the Bifrost's signature. I hate how the word "neutral" is bandied about on this forum, but I like how the Bifrost just seems to get out of the way. The Gungnir will be killer if it has this quality and is also a touch more refined than the Bifrost and with a bit more "oomph" in the extreme low end.


----------



## guitardave

I agree exactly.  The tonal density, sound signature, openness and "fun factor" of the Bifrost are nice, but it does come up short in comparison to the Octave in terms of refinement and ultimate detail.  If the Gungnir can keep the positives and add more detail and refinement, it will be a solid winner.  I can't wait to get mine.


----------



## Llloyd

I'm hoping the gungnir will bring out more micro details as well.  just basically hoping a bifrost in terms of "getting out of the way" or neutrality but more detail!  My new amp is coming in soon so the time the gungnir is released it will be perfect timing for me to buy.  I've been looking into a new dac but this seems to be a really nice one in terms of features offered even with a single ended setup that I'll be using.  I've been thinking of buying the Mhdt Havana.  Still torn between that which uses older tech but sounds great compared to this dac which will offer new cutting edge stuff.  Might just get the havana before then or if i can find one used I'll likely pick it up.
   
  I'm pretty techy so I generally lean towards modern design, especially with dac technology more so than amp, being that digital audio is still evolving quite rapidly.  I've found the bifrost to be a good value as well and while I'm not interested in schiits amp designs, I do trust Mike Moffats know how and since he's been there since the beginning of digital audio, he really knows what he's doing.  With amp design I'm personally a fan of minimalist design approaches.


----------



## rrahman

Just heard the combo w/ lcd2 at a show in SoCal, listening to Nirvana and No doubt lol.
   
  Overall solid performance.  Relative to my home Asus=>Lyr and the demo's Bifrost => Lyr, this combo had a very low noise floor, larger soundstage, sounded very crisp and clear.  Perhaps the best I have ever heard the lcd2s...


----------



## Penarin

I am really loving my new Schiit Asgard.  Now I'm looking at the Bifrost.  Looks like a whole lot of good sound for $350.


----------



## Argo Duck

Exactly right olor1n. If Gungir can manage all these things it will be one seriously good DAC!
   
  Quote: 





olor1n said:


> Odd issues aside, I'm also a fan of the Bifrost's signature. I hate how the word "neutral" is bandied about on this forum, but I like how the Bifrost just seems to get out of the way. *The Gungnir will be killer if it has this quality and is also a touch more refined than the Bifrost and with a bit more "oomph" in the extreme low end.*


----------



## supra1988t

I compared my new Shiit Bifrost DAC to the stock DAC in my Squeezebox touch yesterday.  The levels are matched perfectly (I cant hear a difference) and I had my fiance switch back between inputs on a Marantz Model 3600 which feeds a Knight KB-85 tube amp powering Electrovoice Royal 400s.  I listen to a handful of highres and standard resolution tracks that I am familiar with and had her switch inputs on my command, without knowing which I was listening to.  
 I can hardly tell a difference and I definitely couldn't tell which I was listening to.  I was only doing listening A/B and didn't actually try to ABX but I doubt I'd be able to.  I am going to do some more listening using my Glow Amp/650s as well but it looks like the Schiit might be going back.  I am a little disappointed that I can't tell a difference and I hope the SB DAC is better than expected and its not my hearing.


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





supra1988t said:


> I compared my new Shiit Bifrost DAC to the stock DAC in my Squeezebox touch yesterday.  The levels are matched perfectly (I cant hear a difference) and I had my fiance switch back between inputs on a Marantz Model 3600 which feeds a Knight KB-85 tube amp powering Electrovoice Royal 400s.  I listen to a handful of highres and standard resolution tracks that I am familiar with and had her switch inputs on my command, without knowing which I was listening to.
> I can hardly tell a difference and I definitely couldn't tell which I was listening to.  I was only doing listening A/B and didn't actually try to ABX but I doubt I'd be able to.  I am going to do some more listening using my Glow Amp/650s as well but it looks like the Schiit might be going back.  I am a little disappointed that I can't tell a difference and I hope the SB DAC is better than expected and its not my hearing.


 
   
  Maybe you shouldn't be blaming the DAC?  If I have low water pressure I don't blame the ocean.


----------



## supra1988t

I'm not "blaming" anything.  My system sounds great.  I thought it sounded better with the Bifrost until I did some blind listening.


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





supra1988t said:


> I'm not "blaming" anything.  My system sounds great.  I thought it sounded better with the Bifrost until I did some blind listening.


 
   
  Yes, but your 'blind' test doesn't indicate the DACs sound the same.  Only that you couldn't tell the difference in your system with your test methodology.  I'm just clarifying before people start getting religious based on your post.  Potential trolling/derailing is one reason this topic isn't usually permitted outside the science forum.
   
  With my system the Bifrost has a rather distinct signature.


----------



## supra1988t

Quote: 





anaxilus said:


> Yes, but your 'blind' test doesn't indicate the DACs sound the same.  Only that you couldn't tell the difference in your system with your test methodology.  I'm just clarifying before people start getting religious based on your post.  Potential trolling/derailing is one reason this topic isn't usually permitted outside the science forum.


   
   
 [/quote]

   
  All I stated was that I couldn't tell a difference in my system. 
   


> With my system the Bifrost has a rather distinct signature.


   
  That is what I thought as well until I did my "blind" test.


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





supra1988t said:


> All I stated was that I couldn't tell a difference in my system.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Yes I know.  Agreed.  I'm preempting people who want to grab your quote and run with it.  I thought that was clear in my last post.


----------



## BournePerfect

Well, I definitely heard a difference between my SBT outs and the Bifrost in my system. The Bifrost was definitely more transparent, had greater instrument separation, and was slightly more detailed. OTOH, I for the life of me couldn't hear any difference between my DacIt and the SBT until around 75 hours of burnin, where the Peachtree started to sound a tiny bit better (tonality mainly), but not worth the $$ so it went back. Here's the crazy thing-maybe my Bifrost was only better than the other two because of my *gasp* Decware powercord I used with it, but wasn't able to use with the others as they have no EIC connection. Never did try the Bifrost with a stock power cable though, so all points may be moot lol.
   
  -Daniel


----------



## sridhar3

Quote: 





anaxilus said:


> If I have low water pressure I don't blame the ocean.


 
   
  You shouldn't blame the ocean, you should blame the whales.  Whales are drinking our water and eating our sailors.  Nuke the whales and water pressures will increase back to normal.  It's science! You can't argue with that.


----------



## Focker

Quote: 





supra1988t said:


> I'm not "blaming" anything.  My system sounds great.  I thought it sounded better with the Bifrost until I did some blind listening.


 
   
   
  If you head over to the Sound Science forum (or even just Google search ABX testing and DACs), you'll likely find that ABX testing supports your findings. DACs, cables, and SS amps are typically the items that rarely test positive when it comes to identifying audible differences. 
   
  There's also a really good article from the Institute of Engineering and Technology floating around that discusses audiophile myths and ABX testing of certain gear. If I find the link I'll post it for you. 
   
  Objectivist talk can get a bit stuffy, IMO, and I will always just allow my ears to be the final judge.


----------



## Anaxilus

If you head over to youtube you can find blind tests of professional chefs that can't discern pork from chicken or an apple from a pear.  Check out the test off wine tasters who can't tell a difference.  Is a chicken the same as a pig?  Is an apple a pear?  Are all wines the same even though you can measure the chemical differences in a laboratory?  Or are the tests and/or testers flawed inthose instances?
   
  My 2 cents are to let your ears be the final judge as that's what you use to listen, just be educated and don't be suckered by consumerism or the religious fanatics on either side of an argument.  If you can appreciate a difference keep it, if not sell it.  Nothing can predict what you will experience for you so people just have to do the work for themselves.


----------



## Focker

That's exactly why it's best to enjoy this hobby for what it is and not make a science experiment out of it. Because something shows up on a measurement, graph, or read out of some sort doesn't mean we're able to hear it, smell it, see it, taste it, or feel it. 
   
  I love my Audioengine DAC but have the Bifrost on my short list to audition. The guys at Schiit are great and very helpful...and their products are beautiful.


----------



## Anaxilus

Well the science matters to me when it's audible and bothersome.  Tells me a lot about what I might be hearing that others aren't or things I haven't considered before.  There's a lot of value in that.  I don't see a need to throw the baby out with the bath water, nor do I like to promote gospel.


----------



## Focker

Thats one of the great things about science: its validity fluctuates based on our preferences and pre-conceived notions. 

Is anyone using the bifrost with a Meier amp?


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





focker said:


> Thats one of the great things about science: its validity fluctuates based on our preferences and pre-conceived notions.


 
   
  You could even say that it _evolves_


----------



## Anaxilus

That sounds a bit like a zero sum sliding scale between preferences and science or maybe we're saying the same thing.  I think it's more of an additive relationship.  If science fluctuated that much it would be largely invalid but we know it's basically valid by definition of being empirical.  Science doesn't care what we think about it.  Whether it's 'sound' enough to define our preferences is the real question as that is what fluctuates and harder to quantify.  Well, this is an OT academic discussion but interesting nonetheless so I'll leave it be.  Back to the Schiit.


----------



## Focker

Quote: 





grokit said:


> You could even say that it _evolves_


 
   
  Definitely


----------



## Argo Duck

Unless you're hinting at the sociological dimension of how science gets done, I find it hard to agree. I'd say Science's validity corresponds to the generalizability of its models and the range and depth of their predictive sucesses. I'm with Anaxilus' response just above.
   
  I've used the Bifrost with Meier's Concerto and Classic amps. I slightly prefer Meier's StageDAC with both.
   
  Of the two amps, Bifrost with Concerto is more 'hard-edged'. All-round clarity is great, but perhaps a touch unforgiving; slightly less natural. Dependent on preferences, of course.
   
  With Classic - which is slightly warmer than Concerto, having much less of Concerto's fast decay (dryness) - it's pretty good to my ears.
   
  Quote: 





focker said:


> Thats one of the great things about science: _its validity fluctuates based on our preferences and pre-conceived notions._
> *Is anyone using the bifrost with a Meier amp?*


----------



## Focker

Quote: 





argo duck said:


> Unless you're hinting at the sociological dimension of how science gets done, I find it hard to agree. I'd say Science's validity corresponds to the generalizability of its models and the range and depth of their predictive sucesses. I'm with Anaxilus' response just above.
> 
> I've used the Bifrost with Meier's Concerto and Classic amps. I slightly prefer Meier's StageDAC with both.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Actually I was just being facetious  
   
  Thanks for the feedback about the Bifrost/Meier pairing. I'm actually glad to hear you say the StageDAC is better cause I'm always looking for an excuse to send Jan some money. I have an AudioEngine D1 that I love, but it's really itching to be a bit more mobile around the house. I'm thinking about an upgrade for the main stationary rig, and both the Bifrost and the StageDAC are on my short list.


----------



## Argo Duck

Hi @Focker - right, gotcha - I should've seen that 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  When I ordered my Classic, Jan told me he's got a new (simpler I think) DAC on the drawing board!


----------



## Focker

Quote: 





argo duck said:


> Hi @Focker - right, gotcha - I should've seen that
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  No kidding? Jan is a sneaky, sneaky guy....just when he says he's going to scale back in order to enjoy life a bit more, here he comes with new products every third month lol. Gotta love that guy. Thanks for the tip, brother...I can't wait to see what he's got in store!


----------



## fr45er

Quote: 





uncle00jesse said:


> i'm still really enjoying the bifrost. Some of the sibilance issues i was having havent gone away over time. Also the clicking coming from the unit itself every time you change applications or click something...rather annoying but I can't complain on the sound front too much.


 
   
   
  Did you resolve this issue? (clicking)  You need to change you sound settings on the PC/Laptop.
   
  If you are using Windows 7
   
  Right Click the speaker icon (should be lower right hand side of the screen)
   
  Open Volume Mixer
   
  Mute System sounds (see attached pic)
   

   
  Hope this helps!


----------



## grokit

So it's not the Bifrost clicking but the system sounds that are coming through?


----------



## Defiant00

Quote: 





grokit said:


> So it's not the Bifrost clicking but the system sounds that are coming through?


 
   
  If you're using optical then the Bifrost typically clicks (muting relay) whenever a sound starts or stops. With system sounds on and going through the Bifrost that means every time you click on something the Bifrost will likely click twice as it unmutes and then remutes itself.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





defiant00 said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Whenever the music or the system sounds starts and stops, or both?


----------



## fr45er

Quote: 





grokit said:


> Whenever the music or the system sounds starts and stops, or both?


 
  Have you tried to mute the system sounds,  or turn them off?


----------



## sridhar3

Quote: 





grokit said:


> Whenever the music or the system sounds starts and stops, or both?


 
   
  Both, I believe. One click for unmute when the sound starts, and another click for mute when the sound stops, if I'm not mistaken.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





fr45er said:


> Have you tried to mute the system sounds,  or turn them off?


 
   
  I don't have a Bifrost, but I am considering a Gungnir. I don't know if it clicks as well though. Just trying to get a feel for what this clicking issue is about with the Bifrost. On my Mac Pro, I always route system sounds to the internal speaker.
   
   
  Quote: 





sridhar3 said:


> Both, I believe. One click for unmute when the sound starts, and another click for mute when the sound stops, if I'm not mistaken.


 
   
  So if I route the system sounds elsewhere (internal speaker) or mute them, then I will have no clicking issue?


----------



## fr45er

Its certainly worth a try....


----------



## Defiant00

I typically use mine through USB, but when I did use it with optical it clicked every time it switched between playing and not playing sound.
   
  So if I had no music playing it would click twice for every system sound (once to unmute, once to mute again at the end of the sound). It also clicked twice every time I switched tracks, apparently there is enough of a gap as it loads the next track that it has time to mute and then unmute once the next track starts.
   
  With that said, I don't believe Jason has said whether Gungnir does the same thing. It would also probably be very dependent on what your system does when nothing is playing. In Windows 7 with a Creative sound card through optical it clicks all the time. I believe it also clicked when *dailydoseofdaly *tried it on his Mac, but I wasn't paying enough attention to say for sure.
   
   
  Even with no system sounds, it will still likely click when you start or stop music (and possibly moving from track to track as well, up above when I said it clicked when switching tracks I believe it was when I was actively switching them, not when one would end and go to the next on its own, but it's been a while so it's possible I'm mistaken on that).


----------



## ninjikiran

Thats how I have it as well,
   
   
  I have two soundcards, a Juli@ and Auzentech Prelude.
   
  Juli@ is only linked with J River Media center which outputs to my music/non 5.1 media.
   
  Auzentech prelude outputs system sounds and handles other direct sound(or w/e they call it now in Win7) duties.  to a secondary dac that can process 5.1 and spit it into headphones.  This unit has no click~ it only supports really 16/48khz.
   
   
  Bifrost clicking will definitely not go away, and tbh if its a serious nuisance you are probably not doing something right like enabling system sounds.Most music librarys are either 24/96 or 16/44.  If every song is a mix well then you are not the norm.
   
  Speaking of which I am a terrible person and still owe someone from christmas, I HAVENT FORGOTTEN YOU I PROMISE. I have at least one hand picked CD you will love x3.  Totally suits your style I think. But I am trying to fill it in with more!


----------



## grokit

Thanks for the replies. It would be nice if Jason could weigh in on whether or not the Bifrost clicking issue has been resolved with the Gungnir.


----------



## Jason Stoddard

It's not an issue, it's a feature. (Sorry, couldn't resist.)
   
  For best audio quality, we don't use a soft mute or a FET short hung off the output--we use relays to mute the output in case the input data stream changes/unlocks. If you simply can't abide some clicking, best to steer clear of our DACs. 
   
  Some computers/players/OS combinations/etc. don't give you a continuous input stream. Macs are fine, except for sample rate changes. PCs seem to vary quite a bit.


----------



## grokit

Thanks for the quick reply Jason!
   
  So it seems that if I'm running a Mac, have no sample rate changes, and keep system sounds out of the picture I will not experience any clicking. Does that sound about right?


----------



## Jason Stoddard

Quote: 





grokit said:


> Thanks for the quick reply Jason!
> 
> So it seems that if I'm running a Mac, have no sample rate changes, and keep system sounds out of the picture I will not experience any clicking. Does that sound about right?


 
   
  That is our experience, using iTunes naked, iTunes/Bitperfect, iTunes/Amarra, and Audirvana.


----------



## Kremer930

I personally run a MacBook pro and have never had any issues at all with the clicking issues, (feature). I normally use optical out but sometimes use USB if I am playing with PureMusic upSampling. I may have muted the system sounds though when I first got the Bifrost. Can't really remember. 

Just to stir the pot some..... Looks like the Windows users have another Windows Feature!


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> That is our experience, using iTunes naked, iTunes/Bitperfect, iTunes/Amarra, and Audirvana.


 
   
  Thanks again. I use Pure Music (upsampling 16/44 to 24/96 with DSP disabled), but I would think the results would be quite similar.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





kremer930 said:


> I personally run a MacBook pro and have never had any issues at all with the clicking issues, (feature). I normally use optical out but sometimes use USB if I am playing with PureMusic upSampling. I may have muted the system sounds though when I first got the Bifrost. Can't really remember.


 
   
  Thanks for chiming in, as I said above I am also upsampling with Pure Music.
   
  Now I am wondering why you switch to USB when you upsample, is this because the optical out is limited to 96 kHz and you are upsampling to 192 kHz?


----------



## Kremer930

Yes. The USB is only to overcome the Optical Feature of being limited to 96.


----------



## Yuceka

I get the clicking not while I'm continuously listening to music (which I don't think I'll be able to hear anyway) but in between songs and it also happens when I listen to a Youtube video and then stop for a while. To me it's not an issue at all. As a matter of fact, I kind of like it  I use it with my Macbook Pro via optical and I just wanted to say this because I don't think it has anything to do with the sound coming from the computer or something like that.


----------



## paradoxper

Quote: 





yuceka said:


> I get the clicking not while I'm continuously listening to music (which I don't think I'll be able to hear anyway) but in between songs and it also happens when I listen to a Youtube video and then stop for a while. To me it's not an issue at all. As a matter of fact, I kind of like it  I use it with my Macbook Pro via optical and I just wanted to say this because I don't think it has anything to do with the sound coming from the computer or something like that.


 
  x2 same thing here. But when changing songs that's most likely just sample rates changing. I actually find it funny, is it just telling me
  to get back to the tunes? haha


----------



## dailydoseofdaly

Quote: 





defiant00 said:


> With that said, I don't believe Jason has said whether Gungnir does the same thing. It would also probably be very dependent on what your system does when nothing is playing. In Windows 7 with a Creative sound card through optical it clicks all the time. I believe it also clicked when *dailydoseofdaly *tried it on his Mac, but I wasn't paying enough attention to say for sure.


 
   
  Bifrost out optical>Macbook Pro>Amarra
   
  i dont remember it clicking for any reason other than changing sample rates between tracks.


----------



## steveoat

USB input for Gungnir
   
  Jason,
   
  Will the USB implementation for the Gungnir be the same as that for the Bitfrost?  Or will there be improvements?


----------



## mykyll2727

Can anyone who has had the chance to hear both comment on the comparative sound of the Bifrost and Gungnir.


----------



## paradoxper

Quote: 





mykyll2727 said:


> Can anyone who has had the chance to hear both comment on the comparative sound of the Bifrost and Gungnir.


 
  No, Gungnir isn't out yet and any pre-production units shouldn't be compared. The final product will or does usually sound much different.


----------



## mykyll2727

Thanks! It's a long thread and I didn't have a chance to read it all. I saw where someone posted they would be receiving their Gungnir soon. I didn't realise it was a proto. My bad.
   
  Do you know when it will be officially released by chance?


----------



## dailydoseofdaly

mykyll2727 said:


> Thanks! It's a long thread and I didn't have a chance to read it all. I saw where someone posted they would be receiving their Gungnir soon. I didn't realise it was a proto. My bad.
> 
> Do you know when it will be officially released by chance?




Their website estimates august


----------



## rune-san

I just received my BiFrost and am getting the dreaded "Please plug in your USB 2.0 Audio Device" (something like that) when trying to install the drivers. Can't use the DAC until I figure out how to get the drivers installed. There's a few other people having issues but I don't see them reaching any resolutions so I'm not sure how to go about it.


----------



## rune-san

Did some digging into it off a hunch from a zip file I had downloaded a long time ago and wanted to put it here so some people could find resolution. The ZIP package that you download from the Schiit website is for some reason encrypted. Which is silly because its not actually encrypted with a key. Its probably just a mis-done setting in the package zipping. Anyways, the key is to right click on the folders you extract, deselect "Read Only", then go to Advanced and deselect "Encrypt". Hit ok, make sure the changes are applied to all sub folders, and wait for the changes to be made. You'll likely have to do it one more time to the folder inside the main USB2.0 folder. After removing the encryption, driver installation was simple as Schiit.


----------



## rrahman

Quote: 





paradoxper said:


> No, Gungnir isn't out yet and any pre-production units shouldn't be compared. The final product will or does usually sound much different.


 
   
  I may be mistaken, but I am pretty sure Jason told me the unit I heard at THE Show in Newport was the final version...


----------



## Audio_newb

I know Gungnir hasn't even shipped yet, but looking out to the Statement gear I was wondering if there is any chance of getting two optical inputs.  For better or worse, optical seems to be the default on a lot of consumer gear, some of which only support audio over hdmi or optical.


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





rrahman said:


> I may be mistaken, but I am pretty sure Jason told me the unit I heard at THE Show in Newport was the final version...


 
   
  Mostly....
   
  They are making one or two slight refinement tweaks.


----------



## rrahman

Why doesn't Schiit release jitter numbers for any of their DACs?


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





rrahman said:


> Why doesn't Schiit release jitter numbers for any of their DACs?


 
   
  Because nobody asked?  Why single out Schiit when this is not uncommon?  Are you trying to imply something or just asking?
   
  I could snag some of the Gungnir later down the road if Jason doesn't feel like bothering and/or doesn't mind.  After hearing it I can safely say it has nothing to hide in that respect.  It's one of the cleanest, most transparent sounding DAC's I've heard.


----------



## Jason Stoddard

Quote: 





rrahman said:


> Why doesn't Schiit release jitter numbers for any of their DACs?


 
   
   
  Because it's a huge conspiracy! Because it's 120,000 ps! Because we're incompetent engineers! Because we're under contract from the US government to maximize the amount of jitter in our systems to mask the subliminal messages broadcast by Cthulu and the Elder Gods thanks to their awakening in 1945 by the first atomic tests!
   
  Or, er, well, none of the above. The reality is a lot more complex. Three reasons, really:
   
  1. If you're familiar with the CS8416 datasheet, you won't be too surprised by Bifrost's jitter numbers.
   
  2. Jitter isn't necessarily the be-all end-all one true measurement for digital audio. And it's easy to misinterpret. For example, the RMS jitter number for our USB input is lower than SPDIF (as you'd expect), but the spectrum is entirely different. What's most important?
   
  3. Jitter is hard to measure accurately at low levels. Most people would have you think it's as simple as hooking it up to the AP or DScope and getting a chart out. But hey, let's look at the AP and Dscope's residual jitter numbers: 600ps for the AP 27XX and 1000ps for the AP 525x and Dscope. Not exactly 1ps territory, hmm? That's why we have not one, but two Stanford Research SR1 audio analyzers, one kitted out with Option 3 and 4 (1ppm internal reference and ultra-low jitter analyzer with 8ps residual jitter.) The only better option for measuring jitter than the full-kit Stanford is a $30,000 piece of gear that only measures jitter, which will get you down to 2ps or so.
   
  Bottom line, yeah, we'll eventually have some properly-caveated numbers for Gungnir, but we don't think people should be buying gear based on one single measurement. And Anaxilus, if you'd like to do some measurements after release, feel free! It'll be interesting to see how they correlate with our own, and it'll give me more confidence if they're in concurrence.
   
  PS: And, no discussion of jitter would be complete without noting that Mike Moffat was one of the first people to theorize jitter was a cause of digital audio degradation, was one of the first to measure it back in the 1980s, and was the first to use VCO PLLs to regenerate clocks and reduce jitter. It's not like we just fell off of the turnip truck here.


----------



## Yuceka

Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> It's not like we just fell off of the turnip truck here.


 
  Hahahaha. I literally laughed out loud reading this at a coffee shop


----------



## Llloyd

Quote: 





yuceka said:


> Hahahaha. I literally laughed out loud reading this at a coffee shop


 
  +1


----------



## shaunybaby

I loved reading that!!


----------



## judmarc

Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> It's not like we just fell off of the turnip truck here.


 
   
  Passing turnip trucks are a leading cause of jitter.


----------



## sridhar3

Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> It's not like we just fell off of the turnip truck here.


 
   
  Please note that though you have made it clear that you did not indeed fall off of a turnip truck, nowhere in this sentence does it stipulate that you did not fall off of a watermelon truck.


----------



## Anaxilus

If Jason hasn't fallen off the wagon at least once or twice I'd be disappointed to say the least.


----------



## Jason Stoddard

Quote: 





anaxilus said:


> If Jason hasn't fallen off the wagon at least once or twice I'd be disappointed to say the least.


 
   
  I've run out of fingers . . .


----------



## Meoow

USB or SPDIF is still a huge debate which involves "Cables" to make it even more complicated and making us audiophile spending extra huge money. I don't have much knowledges about these things but I did an experiment a while ago where I had my Fiio E17 connect in USB (stock cable) and SPDIF (Optical, a cheap $36) modes (Asus Xonar D2X soundcard) to my PC.
   
  Gears:
  Audio Techinca A900x
  Sennheiser HD650
  Grados Rs1i (housemate)
   
  Music (can't remember =,=)
   
  - What i found was that only the Grados was able to tells the differences between USB and Optical in only *certain songs (maybe so) and the rest just sounds exactly the same through out (all Flac). Conclusion was that USB sounded more neutral and uncoloured while Optical had somewhat fuller sound like comparing between the same song in Mp3 and Flac, where Optical sounded more like Flac quality.
   
  Weird...but I think in the end both USB and SPDIF sound signature and quality wise , are exactly the same. That's why I am not go for the extra $100 USB for my Bifrost purchase. I hope it's a good decision


----------



## hionhifi

Quote: 





digitaldissent said:


> I want one!


 
  I second that emotion!


----------



## stenjc

I've been using a DS Pro Generation VA for what seems like forever, but lately the upgrade bug has been starting to itch and I'm wondering if something like the Bifrost or the Gungnir would improve on what I've already got? The Mike Moffat connection is of course intruiging, but has anyone compared a Bifrost with the older top of the line Theta DAC's? Could it be that $400 in 2012 buys you what $5000 couldn't 15 years ago?


----------



## judmarc

Quote: 





stenjc said:


> I've been using a DS Pro Generation VA for what seems like forever, but lately the upgrade bug has been starting to itch and I'm wondering if something like the Bifrost or the Gungnir would improve on what I've already got? The Mike Moffat connection is of course intruiging, but has anyone compared a Bifrost with the older top of the line Theta DAC's? Could it be that $400 in 2012 buys you what $5000 couldn't 15 years ago?


 
   
  I don't have exactly what you're looking for, but perhaps this will do until something else comes along that's closer.
   
  I owned a Pro Basic II upgraded to Balanced, so not top of the line, and around 20 years old, so older than yours.  The Bifrost was clearly better in my listening, and that was before it was fully burned in.
   
  Another consideration: Schiit has two DACs coming along in the next while - Gungnir in ~August, top of the line by sometime late this year or early next? - so you may want to hear one or both of those first.


----------



## yeehc0729

just got my bitfrost last week, been loving it so far. However, It cant play 24/192, 24/88.2 flac though Foobar2k wasapi. Also it only shows up to 24/96 in spdif device.I have the non USB model. I am feeding it though desktop Win7 Ultimate, onboard soundcard (via vt2021)>optical out>bitfrost>rca to HA540. any help would be appreciate.


----------



## Defiant00

Quote: 





yeehc0729 said:


> just got my bitfrost last week, been loving it so far. However, It cant play 24/192, 24/88.2 flac though Foobar2k wasapi. Also it only shows up to 24/96 in spdif device.I have the non USB model. I am feeding it though desktop Win7 Ultimate, onboard soundcard (via vt2021)>optical out>bitfrost>rca to HA540. any help would be appreciate.


 
   
  Using SPDIF your computer has no idea what the signal is going to, it's just outputting the digital signal through the optical connection and assuming something's on the other end, so any limitations would be from your onboard sound not the Bifrost.


----------



## yeehc0729

Quote: 





defiant00 said:


> Using SPDIF your computer has no idea what the signal is going to, it's just outputting the digital signal through the optical connection and assuming something's on the other end, so any limitations would be from your onboard sound not the Bifrost.


 
  thank you for the reply.that makes sense to me..I look up my onboard sound card and it state "2 independent 16/20/24-bit S/PDIF TX Outputs supporting 48K/96K/44.1K/88.2 KHz sample rate". I am guessing that 88.2KHz wasn't support by the optical out on the back panel, since theres another "internel optical out" for expansion card?  I uninstalled the VIA audio driver and use the windows audio drvier, it can play both 88.2k/192k. In the sound option, the name changed to digital audio spdif instead of SPDIF interface when using the VIA driver. But I think using the VIA driver sounds better, no sure if thats a placebo tho. Can someone explain this?


----------



## Defiant00

Quote: 





yeehc0729 said:


> thank you for the reply.that makes sense to me..I look up my onboard sound card and it state "2 independent 16/20/24-bit S/PDIF TX Outputs supporting 48K/96K/44.1K/88.2 KHz sample rate". I am guessing that 88.2KHz wasn't support by the optical out on the back panel, since theres another "internel optical out" for expansion card?  I uninstalled the VIA audio driver and use the windows audio drvier, it can play both 88.2k/192k. In the sound option, the name changed to digital audio spdif instead of SPDIF interface when using the VIA driver. But I think using the VIA driver sounds better, no sure if thats a placebo tho. Can someone explain this?


 
   
  If both are actually doing bit-perfect data passing to the Bifrost then yeah it's placebo, but it's certainly possible that one (or both) of the drivers are actually doing something else to the data before passing it on.
   
  When it comes to the sample rates supported by the drivers I  couldn't say for sure, but it certainly sounds like the info you found matches with what you've experienced except for the 88.2 (and sounds like that's a driver issue if the Windows driver actually works properly at 88.2). As far as the name change in sound options, I'm pretty sure that's defined by the driver used so that doesn't surprise me.


----------



## judmarc

Quote: 





defiant00 said:


> If both are actually doing bit-perfect data passing to the Bifrost then yeah it's placebo, but it's certainly possible that one (or both) of the drivers are actually doing something else to the data before passing it on.


 
   
  Maybe not - entirely possible for two bit-perfect sources to sound different.  For example, one could be a coax out while the other could be optical.  Or one could have more jitter than the other.  Or one could pass along more electrical noise from the computer to the DAC and the rest of the system (not with optical, though, obviously, only with electrical connections - but with optical jitter can be more of a factor).  So there are several different possibilities, and I'm sure others I haven't thought of.


----------



## O8h7w

That would be the signal integrity of the connection itself, whether or not all those bits really make it to the receiver in recognizable shape. Between jitter, noise and signal integrity, I think we have the variables of _digital connections_ pinned down. Please, someone with better knowledge, correct me if I'm wrong.
   
  Remember that on top of this, there's the use of different _formats_ which may make these variables more or less relevant. ( As well as they differ in their ability to represent the audio from the very beginning, which is a completely different topic. )


----------



## yeehc0729

The weird thing is that my onboard sound card only support up to 24/96k for optical out, then why using the windows driver makes it able to output 24/196k? I use both driver with the same set up and bit perfect through foobar2k wasapi.


----------



## Mr.Tom

Quote: 





stenjc said:


> I've been using a DS Pro Generation VA for what seems like forever, but lately the upgrade bug has been starting to itch and I'm wondering if something like the Bifrost or the Gungnir would improve on what I've already got? The Mike Moffat connection is of course intruiging, but has anyone compared a Bifrost with the older top of the line Theta DAC's? Could it be that $400 in 2012 buys you what $5000 couldn't 15 years ago?


 
  I'm still running a MUSE model 2+ in my living room, it's got to be close to 20 years old and cost over $2k. It's smooth as silk with little detail compared to the Bifrost. I'd say the Bifrost smokes in in every way! I AB'd it with speakers, but it's too big and heavy to used at my computer. So no headphone compare.
   
  So far the Bifrost is the smoothest and most detailed DAC I've owned. I've never heard a DAC get so deep in the details without also getting harsh.


----------



## Defiant00

Quote: 





judmarc said:


> Maybe not - entirely possible for two bit-perfect sources to sound different.  For example, one could be a coax out while the other could be optical.  Or one could have more jitter than the other.  Or one could pass along more electrical noise from the computer to the DAC and the rest of the system (not with optical, though, obviously, only with electrical connections - but with optical jitter can be more of a factor).  So there are several different possibilities, and I'm sure others I haven't thought of.


 
   
  Well yes, but when the only difference is the driver he's using then if they're both bit-perfect they should be the same since they're going through the exact same hardware.


----------



## O8h7w

Quote: 





defiant00 said:


> Well yes, but when the only difference is the driver he's using then if they're both bit-perfect they should be the same since they're going through the exact same hardware.


 
   
  But that hardware is not doing the same thing. With a different workload, operational noise and jitter within the computer changes. If you open the case of a stationary computer and listen to it while running for a short while, you should be able to hear some of this clearly with your naked ears. I find it hard to believe that any electronics in such an environment would be unaffected. However, almost everything in a computer is error-corrected and has headroom to spare. Not so with streaming audio...
   
  I think I have heard this with my headphones (Denon 2000) connected directly to the inbuilt audio in my laptop, stressing the memory and not the CPU so that fan noise wouldn't be an issue. Could be placebo though, since I knew what I was doing and I did expect a difference.
   
  Note also that if yeehc0729 had some music in a high enough resolution, he might have been using different sample rates with the different drivers. The higher sample rate of the Windows driver would then have three effects; firstly making every bit way less important, secondly making jitter and noise more of a problem, and lastly stressing all involved hardware more. Remember that the audio card was not built for 192 kHz sampling rates. And that it's a doubling of the amount of data to process, see first paragraph... sorry if I got you into a loop there.


----------



## Defiant00

Quote: 





o8h7w said:


> But that hardware is not doing the same thing. With a different workload, operational noise and jitter within the computer changes. If you open the case of a stationary computer and listen to it while running for a short while, you should be able to hear some of this clearly with your naked ears. I find it hard to believe that any electronics in such an environment would be unaffected. However, almost everything in a computer is error-corrected and has headroom to spare. Not so with streaming audio...
> 
> I think I have heard this with my headphones (Denon 2000) connected directly to the inbuilt audio in my laptop, stressing the memory and not the CPU so that fan noise wouldn't be an issue. Could be placebo though, since I knew what I was doing and I did expect a difference.
> 
> Note also that if yeehc0729 had some music in a high enough resolution, he might have been using different sample rates with the different drivers. The higher sample rate of the Windows driver would then have three effects; firstly making every bit way less important, secondly making jitter and noise more of a problem, and lastly stressing all involved hardware more. Remember that the audio card was not built for 192 kHz sampling rates. And that it's a doubling of the amount of data to process, see first paragraph... sorry if I got you into a loop there.


 
   
  Alright, I guess technically that could possibly occur. Regardless, it seems unlikely to me, but I suppose with computers you never know.
   
  Shall we get back to general Schiit discussion?


----------



## O8h7w

Quote: 





defiant00 said:


> Shall we get back to general Schiit discussion?


 
   
  Absolutely. Sorry for thread derailing (hope someone found it useful though).


----------



## bcart180

I found a new home for my second Bifrost!


----------



## Jason Stoddard

Quote: 





bcart180 said:


> I found a new home for my second Bifrost!


 
   
  The dog looking at the speaker is an exceptionally meta touch.


----------



## Yuceka

Quote: 





bcart180 said:


> I found a new home for my second Bifrost!


 

 What tube amp is that if you don't mind me asking? Do you use it with the Lyr or just directly with your speakers ?


----------



## sregor

Quote: 





bcart180 said:


> I found a new home for my second Bifrost!


 
  This picture looks familiar... Like I've seen this on reddit today... Hmmmm.


----------



## bcart180

Quote: 





yuceka said:


> What tube amp is that if you don't mind me asking? Do you use it with the Lyr or just directly with your speakers ?


 
   
  Cayin A-60T.  I use it only to drive the RF-82s!


----------



## grokit

How do you like the Klipshes, *bcart180*?


----------



## jono454

Hello everyone,
   
  I've been using my Bifrost for the past week and find it to be a phenomenal DAC compared to my previous FiiO E17. When i received the DAC it didn't come with a USB 2.0 A to B cable so i searched everywhere in my house and finally found one in my basement. The cable is made by some cheap china brand called 'chinglung' and feels pretty cheap but works nonetheless. My question now is for those who have the USB version, what USB cables are you using and what are your opinions on the USB cables making a difference in sound. 
   
  I saw Pangea's USB cable on sale for $19.99 and was tempted to buy it but figure i'd try to get some first hand opinions before doing so.


----------



## MomijiTMO

jono454 said:


> My question now is for those who have the USB version, what USB cables are you using and what are your opinions on the USB cables making a difference in sound.






Spoiler: I don't have the Schiit so disregard my comments if you want to.



USB cables carry a digital signal. If a digital signal is 'less pure' or whatever you want to call it, the signal will not arrive at the other end. They are not like analogue cables. It's either 0100010 or nothing. No extra 0001 on the end to give more bass.


----------



## paradoxper

Quote: 





momijitmo said:


> Spoiler: I don't have the Schiit so disregard my comments if you want to.
> 
> 
> 
> USB cables carry a digital signal. If a digital signal is 'less pure' or whatever you want to call it, the signal will not arrive at the other end. They are not like analogue cables. It's either 0100010 or nothing. No extra 0001 on the end to give more bass.


 
  Yea, but "possible" placebo should count for something.


----------



## bcart180

Quote: 





grokit said:


> How do you like the Klipshes, *bcart180*?


 
   


 I have no complaints.  Actually, my only gripe is that being an apartment dweller I can't listen at high levels.  But, for my first set of decent speakers I am pleased!


----------



## Defiant00

Quote: 





jono454 said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> I've been using my Bifrost for the past week and find it to be a phenomenal DAC compared to my previous FiiO E17. When i received the DAC it didn't come with a USB 2.0 A to B cable so i searched everywhere in my house and finally found one in my basement. The cable is made by some cheap china brand called 'chinglung' and feels pretty cheap but works nonetheless. My question now is for those who have the USB version, what USB cables are you using and what are your opinions on the USB cables making a difference in sound.
> 
> I saw Pangea's USB cable on sale for $19.99 and was tempted to buy it but figure i'd try to get some first hand opinions before doing so.


 
   
   
  Monoprice cables for me, I spent $15-20 for all the cables in my current setup (and a couple extras as well).
   
  For USB there typically isn't any difference short of it just not working properly.


----------



## judmarc

Quote: 





defiant00 said:


> Monoprice cables for me, I spent $15-20 for all the cables in my current setup (and a couple extras as well).
> 
> For USB there typically isn't any difference short of it just not working properly.


 
   
  Arggh.  They are cables carrying an *analog* signal *representing* digital ones and zeros.  Little ones and zeros marching happily in pristine formation down a cable is an oversimplified model we have in our minds.  Additionally they are *electrical* cables, meaning they can carry electrical and RF noise into the system, including the sensitive digital clock, thus affecting jitter.  So yes, they can matter.  Fortunately you don't have to spend a lot to find out if the cable makes an audible difference to you.  Many people have said good things about Monoprice.  Personally, I happen to like the Audioquest Forest USB very much for about $30 US for the .6 meter length.  So you can try these or others, and if you don't personally hear any significant difference, return them; or even if you don't send them back, you haven't spent a fortune.


----------



## jono454

Quote: 





judmarc said:


> Arggh.  They are cables carrying an *analog* signal *representing* digital ones and zeros.  Little ones and zeros marching happily in pristine formation down a cable is an oversimplified model we have in our minds.  Additionally they are *electrical* cables, meaning they can carry electrical and RF noise into the system, including the sensitive digital clock, thus affecting jitter.  So yes, they can matter.  Fortunately you don't have to spend a lot to find out if the cable makes an audible difference to you.  Many people have said good things about Monoprice.  Personally, I happen to like the Audioquest Forest USB very much for about $30 US for the .6 meter length.  So you can try these or others, and if you don't personally hear any significant difference, return them; or even if you don't send them back, you haven't spent a fortune.


 
   
  Yea i was debating over the monoprice cables, audioquest forrest or pangea cables. All 3 of them aren't that expensive and won't break my bank. In the end i may pick up both the monoprice and (either the forerst or the pangea) to see if there's an audible difference for myself.


----------



## Defiant00

Quote: 





judmarc said:


> Arggh.  They are cables carrying an *analog* signal *representing* digital ones and zeros.  Little ones and zeros marching happily in pristine formation down a cable is an oversimplified model we have in our minds.  Additionally they are *electrical* cables, meaning they can carry electrical and RF noise into the system, including the sensitive digital clock, thus affecting jitter.  So yes, they can matter.  Fortunately you don't have to spend a lot to find out if the cable makes an audible difference to you.  Many people have said good things about Monoprice.  Personally, I happen to like the Audioquest Forest USB very much for about $30 US for the .6 meter length.  So you can try these or others, and if you don't personally hear any significant difference, return them; or even if you don't send them back, you haven't spent a fortune.


 
   
  Yup, and that's why I was careful to say 'typically' since yes, I realize that it is an analog representation of a digital signal (if we're being pedantic). But with that said, for the most part with any reasonably well-made cable the data sent and received should be identical.


----------



## O8h7w

Quote: 





defiant00 said:


> Yup, and that's why I was careful to say 'typically' since yes, I realize that it is an analog representation of a digital signal (if we're being pedantic). But with that said, for the most part with any reasonably well-made cable the data sent and received should be identical.


 
   
  Think about it, that's just as true for analog cables. But noise matters in a way that is easier to understand in the analog domain. A discussion about differences other than broken data in digital transmissions happens to be in this thread just a page ago, it _shouldn't_ need repeating. Yet I feel like it is about to do just that...


----------



## grokit

The Sound Science forum is the place to go for endless repetition of circular arguments.


----------



## Defiant00

Well, I see we've got Jason viewing.
   
  Hi Jason! Any statement gear information for us yet?


----------



## jman06

I am going back and forth thinking about getting the Gungnir (and other DACs) as I am trying to hold out for the statement gear.  Hoping it will still be announced/released by the end of the year.


----------



## judmarc

Quote: 





jman06 said:


> I am going back and forth thinking about getting the Gungnir (and other DACs) as I am trying to hold out for the statement gear.  Hoping it will still be announced/released by the end of the year.


 
   
  Yes, I had to get the Bifrost to at least tide me over to the statement DAC.  At this point I'm very pleased that I did, because of the Bifrost's excellent sound.


----------



## munchzilla

hi - pretty sure I've decided on going with the Bifrost DAC as my next DAC... however, just checking to see if there is any chance there might be a USB update or so in the near future!


----------



## Defiant00

Quote: 





munchzilla said:


> hi - pretty sure I've decided on going with the Bifrost DAC as my next DAC... however, just checking to see if there is any chance there might be a USB update or so in the near future!


 
   
  Considering how long it's been out they likely won't be updating the USB portion any time soon, and when they do you can always just get the new card then.


----------



## munchzilla

okay - yeah, I was just thinking maybe in sync with the release of a new DAC that there might be something tagging along with it. 
   
  thanks!


----------



## O8h7w

I'm guessing the Schiit heads thinks the other way around, along the lines of "USB works for now, let's forget that mess and focus on what we know until we have these products out". The Gungnir has been announced with the not-that-old USB card and for the statement it doesn't matter enough right now. I sure hope they do work on it after releasing those, though.


----------



## Defiant00

Quote: 





o8h7w said:


> I'm guessing the Schiit heads thinks the other way around, along the lines of "USB works for now, let's forget that mess and focus on what we know until we have these products out". The Gungnir has been announced with the not-that-old USB card and for the statement it doesn't matter enough right now. I sure hope they do work on it after releasing those, though.


 
   
  You make it sound like their current USB implementation needs improvement, but I have no complaint with the USB on my Bifrost.


----------



## dailydoseofdaly

defiant00 said:


> You make it sound like their current USB implementation needs improvement, but I have no complaint with the USB on my Bifrost.




Yes to this


----------



## O8h7w

USB Audio in general needs work. Streaming time-sensitive data in the way it does it now seems like a bad idea from the very beginning. However, there is potential for a far better solution.


----------



## Defiant00

Quote: 





o8h7w said:


> USB Audio in general needs work. Streaming time-sensitive data in the way it does it now seems like a bad idea from the very beginning. However, there is potential for a far better solution.


 
   
  If you were a bit closer by I'd invite you to listen to my Bifrost, but as it is all I can say is that the Bifrost sounds excellent regardless of the input, which is fortunate since my work laptop only has USB.


----------



## munchzilla

hmm, I am a bit confused. could I have some more in depth explanation of this? is it a USB limitation or is it just digital audio data in general?
  are you perhaps saying USB is not the best choice for digital out from a computer?
  oh and another relevant question: I am planning to use the Bifrost with a USB hub (powered) - is there any reason why it should not work very well, that way? I mean, it's just digital data right? it's not drawing power from the USB hub/computer?
   
  thanks!


----------



## jman06

I use all 3 inputs on my Bifrost (mostly USB) and they all sound very good.  I initially had some doubts when I first got it, but that was cleared during the first few days I got it.  So no complaints what so ever on using USB.


----------



## jono454

I'm skeptical to say this but burn-in actually improved the bifrost over time.
   
  I use both optical and USB and both are great.


----------



## Defiant00

Quote: 





munchzilla said:


> hmm, I am a bit confused. could I have some more in depth explanation of this? is it a USB limitation or is it just digital audio data in general?
> are you perhaps saying USB is not the best choice for digital out from a computer?
> oh and another relevant question: I am planning to use the Bifrost with a USB hub (powered) - is there any reason why it should not work very well, that way? I mean, it's just digital data right? it's not drawing power from the USB hub/computer?
> 
> thanks!


 
   
  Some people feel that USB, being a generic interface as opposed to an audio-specific one, is less-suited to audio. With that said, when using a computer you'll either be doing digital data -> sound card (integrated or otherwise) -> DAC through optical/coax or digital data -> DAC through USB. Both of these methods involve various hardware and software steps, and a weak link in any step can reduce the quality (USB or otherwise).
   
  The main thing is that (at least on sites like this one), historically the belief has been that USB implementations have not been as good as using the computer to output through optical/coax. However, there have been quite a few good USB DACs recently, to the point that I would expect the better ones to be indistinguishable in a double-blind test.
   
  A powered hub shouldn't cause any problems with the Bifrost. From what I can tell it powers its USB card through the USB connection but the DAC itself is through the normal outlet.
   
   
  Oh yes, and as a programmer I'd be curious in an actual technical explanation as to why USB as a protocol isn't ideal for streaming audio, since it's not like it's a lot of data and it's not like it requires much effort to keep a buffer full of data. I can understand an appreciation of a dedicated method just for audio (simplicity is always nice), but complexity doesn't inherently make something inferior.


----------



## O8h7w

Quote: 





defiant00 said:


> Oh yes, and as a programmer I'd be curious in an actual technical explanation as to why USB as a protocol isn't ideal for streaming audio, since it's not like it's a lot of data and it's not like it requires much effort to keep a buffer full of data. I can understand an appreciation of a dedicated method just for audio (simplicity is always nice), but complexity doesn't inherently make something inferior.


 
   
  Well, current USB audio is a dedicated method within the USB spec. However, the Bifrost and most recent USB-connected DACs doesn't use it, instead using some sort of asynchronic USB audio implementation. This is the beauty of universal but still open connections: you can write your own protocol if the standard doesn't cut it. And therefore, USB is (in my humble opinion) the absolutely best connection between a computer and a DAC for now. The only thing that could be better is if it was optical.
   
  But we need more developers doing something about the interface, the protocol. Right now, the computer just sends out the bits in PCM encoding, with the right order and timing, and hopes they make it to the receiver reasonably intact. Asynchronic solutions improves on this by giving the computer a more correct clock signal for the timing, sourced from designated oscillator in the DAC. A big step in the right direction, I think, but there is more to be done.
   
  I have no Bifrost. I have the Devilsound Audio Cable, which is USB only. Before asynchronic. Before hi-res. It still sounds awesome, but that doesn't mean there isn't more to do


----------



## munchzilla

OK, I think I understand a bit more now (also did some research on my own!)
  I'm really not worried that USB will sound bad - got a USB powered DAC at the moment, the AMB Gamma2 (DIY) and it sounds fantastic.
   
  thanks!


----------



## grokit

It's not that all USB DAC inputs sound bad--some definitely do though. Without going into the technical reasons, USB inputs that sound bad can be improved by an outboard USB to spdif converter. IME, USB inputs that already sound good will not be improved by an outboard converter.
   
  For example, my Mini-i's main weakness is its adaptive 48k USB input, it really sucks. But when I hooked up the asynchronous Vlink 192 or Firestone Bravo converters, things improved so dramatically that I wonder how much of an improvement a Gungnir will actually be.
   
  One of my favorite DACs to date is unfortunately single-ended, the Bel Canto DAC2. It only has optical or coax inputs; when I hook up a cheap USB to spdif adapter it sounds just as good as it does with the Bravo or Vlink converters. This is not the case with the Mini-i, it needs a quality outboard converter while the Bel Canto does not.
   
  I am leaning toward getting a Gungnir, and am looking forward to comparing its optional USB implementation to my other USB processors via coax, and to optical.


----------



## MtnSloth

If you are really curious about USB-to-SPDIF converters, you might find this long-ish thread interesting.
   
  Also waiting on Gungnir with some impatience. I won't be getting the USB option, as I've gone the dedicated file player route (an Auraliti PK100 with BNC S/PDIF).


----------



## sridhar3

Quote: 





mtnsloth said:


> If you are really curious about USB-to-SPDIF converters, you might find this long-ish thread interesting.


 
   
  Actually, a better resource for USB-to-S/PDIF converters can be found here: http://www.thewelltemperedcomputer.com/HW/USB_SPDIF.htm
   
  It's a list of most of the currently available options, along with pricing, feature sets and websites.  Gives a good comparative view, and allows you to shop by price.
   
  The rest of the website is an interesting read as well.


----------



## justie

Has anyone received their Schiit Gungnir yet? Im asking because some early impressions of the Mjolnir are starting to pop out


----------



## Defiant00

Gungnir is supposed to start shipping later this month.


----------



## judmarc

Quote: 





munchzilla said:


> OK, I think I understand a bit more now (also did some research on my own!)
> I'm really not worried that USB will sound bad - got a USB powered DAC at the moment, the AMB Gamma2 (DIY) and it sounds fantastic.
> 
> thanks!


 
   
  Each type of input has advantages and disadvantages.  Which sounds better in your system will depend on the rest of the system.  I've posted at length about this in this thread previously, so it's available if you want to search.
   
  The Bifrost USB implementation is a very good one, async to minimize jitter.  In my particular system, it is the best sounding of the three inputs.


----------



## shaunybaby

I haven't done that much digging but i did find this which is promising. ( note this is not said by me but the opinion of another head-fi user )
   
  This is what ''Brunk'' had to say
   
   
*I'm using the T1/Mjolnir combo and I can tell you that imaging and soundstage is superb. It's the most convincing combo yet. It's like Dolby Headphone without the processing lol. After 30 minutes of listening to them on the HA-160D and B22 (friends) i would get listening fatigue. I haven't experienced fatigue on the Mjolnir at all! The only amp I've heard that can hold a candle to the Mjolnir is the Violectric, but I think it will get pushed out the spotlight in a few weeks once more reviews and impressions are in. I sometimes find myself turning up to louder volume than I should because its so clear and life like. The music and detail/transients just pour in that no sub $1k amp on the current market can come close to. The unit runs cool for quite some time, but after several hours of heat pooling up, it does get a bit hot. Mjolnir's heat sinking ability is very well engineered and really isnt a problem at all. This is also in a ~78 F room.*
   
*I can't stress enough just how convincing the Mjolnir+T1 pairing really is. It's a match made in heaven for sure. There is a very flat sound signature, unlike the V shape of Burson units. The Burson units sort of put the vocals "outside" your head ,but they are actually hurting the SQ in the end. The Mjolnir is more of a " \ " bass tipped curve, but doesn't drown out those ever-so-fine treble details and transients. That means a very flat frequency response for those neutral-nazi people out there. However, it doesn't try to get in the way of the music like Burson and others do. I'm done searching for headphone equipment for atleast a year, I might occasionally login to headfi now. That is the only compliment a manufacturer needs. Yulong D18/Mjolnir/Beyer T1 combo = Peace out HeadFi. Thank you Schiit!*
   
   
  (A link to that thread is here)


----------



## .Sup

Gratz Shauny!


----------



## munchzilla

Quote: 





judmarc said:


> Each type of input has advantages and disadvantages.  Which sounds better in your system will depend on the rest of the system.  I've posted at length about this in this thread previously, so it's available if you want to search.
> 
> The Bifrost USB implementation is a very good one, async to minimize jitter.  In my particular system, it is the best sounding of the three inputs.


 
  is there any reason why it should not be the best in another persons system?
  nonetheless, that adds to my excitement - I might actually be able to listen to it since I have located a seller locally. very much looking forward to it! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 cheers


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





munchzilla said:


> is there any reason why it should not be the best in another persons system?


 
   
  Implementation in each system and piece of kit.  How various implementations handle USB/SPDIF are quite varied and not at all consistent.  The idea of perfect binary consistency translating across all platforms is one of the biggest fallacies I can think of in audio.  Digital audio has been something of a disappointment in this regard IME and seems barely more certain than picking the right tube sad to say.


----------



## Defiant00

Quote: 





anaxilus said:


> Implementation in each system and piece of kit.  How various implementations handle USB/SPDIF are quite varied and not at all consistent.  The idea of perfect binary consistency translating across all platforms is one of the biggest fallacies I can think of in audio.  Digital audio has been something of a disappointment in this regard IME and seems barely more certain than picking the right tube sad to say.


 
   
  As an example, apparently the optical out on some of the mac laptops isn't that great, in which case USB might be better.
   
  And a disclaimer, I don't own a Mac laptop, it's just what I've heard here on the forums.


----------



## ninjikiran

Tbh there isn't much difference with digital transports, in my experience transports are the 1% of the audio experience.  Unless its one of those old cheapo 16-bit USB modules which have a bit of an effect on output(could of also been the dac as well).
   
  One of the advantages of optical is being completely isolated in its own world, with its disadvantage not being very efficient jitter wise
   
  Usb is much like spdif for most people, one of the  hidden advantages of USB is you can get part of the advantage of optical by not using the PC ground, and replacing the power lines with a separate power supply.  Its plug and play most of the time, you buy it, plug it in and your good to go.  Some of the most advanced standalone transports are USB!!!
   
  coaxial is just old school, everything oldschool just works perfectly.  I personally prefer it but I also use a dedicated sound card for it... which takes effort.  If your on head-fi you are smart enough.
   
  That is my *opinion*, it is neither right nor wrong just  a different point of view.


----------



## Yuceka

Quote: 





defiant00 said:


> As an example, apparently the optical out on some of the mac laptops isn't that great, in which case USB might be better.
> 
> And a disclaimer, I don't own a Mac laptop, it's just what I've heard here on the forums.


 
  As a Mac and a Bifrost owner, the difference between the USB and the optical is quite discernible for me. Optical is clearer and more life like to my ears.


----------



## preproman

Reserved


----------



## jman06

Quote: 





defiant00 said:


> As an example, apparently the optical out on some of the mac laptops isn't that great, in which case USB might be better.
> 
> And a disclaimer, I don't own a Mac laptop, it's just what I've heard here on the forums.


 
   
  I found this to be true as well.  On occasion I use my MacBook Pro as my source.  I have used both optical and USB and to me the optical sounded just plain dull and the USB was clearly better.  I thought it was my optical cable, but then I used it with my Oppo, PC, and Squeezebox Touch (feeding the Bifrost) and they sounded much better.  Now I am using optical from my PC and USB from Mac.  For cables I used the Audioquest Forest for optical and Audioquest Coffee for USB.  My MacBook Pro is a 2010 model if that makes any difference.


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





jman06 said:


> I found this to be true as well.  On occasion I use my MacBook Pro as my source.  I have used both optical and USB and to me the optical sounded just plain dull and the USB was clearly better.  I thought it was my optical cable, but then I used it with my Oppo, PC, and Squeezebox Touch (feeding the Bifrost) and they sounded much better.  Now I am using optical from my PC and USB from Mac.  For cables I used the Audioquest Forest for optical and Audioquest Coffee for USB.  My MacBook Pro is a 2010 model if that makes any difference.


 
   
  x3 using my mother's Macbook.  Wanted to compare to my Thinkpad using an XFi Xpress card and it was not pretty.  Thought it too was the cable w/ the 1/8" but it sounded fine from the QA350.


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





jman06 said:


> I found this to be true as well.  On occasion I use my MacBook Pro as my source.  I have used both optical and USB and to me the optical sounded just plain dull and the USB was clearly better.  I thought it was my optical cable, but then I used it with my Oppo, PC, and Squeezebox Touch (feeding the Bifrost) and they sounded much better.  Now I am using optical from my PC and USB from Mac.  For cables I used the Audioquest Forest for optical and Audioquest Coffee for USB.  My MacBook Pro is a 2010 model if that makes any difference.


 
   
  jman06,
   
  I see you have the Mjolnir and BHA-1, care to do a compassion on both?


----------



## grokit

My humble HP tx2 laptop/tablet came with an Altec Lansing sound card, and its optical out sounds better than any Mac I've tried including my Mac Pro. Unfortunately the jack is on the front


----------



## sridhar3

Are there any tablets with optical out?


----------



## olor1n

The Mjolnir/HD800 pairing exposes a noticeable difference between usb and optical for me. Not sure if it's due to implementation on my late 2011 MBP, or just the differences inherent in the Bifrost's inputs. Usb (Furutech Formula 2 fwiw) has more bite, with a hint of grain and dryness in some recordings. Optical is smoother and more laid-back, clearer despite the less distinct edges giving the overall presentation a slightly smeared quality.
   
  I caught a glimpse of this when I previously had the Lyr between the Bifrost and headphone. The Mjolnir lays it bare. I prefer optical in my system.


----------



## PelPix

*******.  After all this hype, this statement DAC better be like a 32-bit, ultraprecise, completely ringless binary thermometer dac with 3d transistors using a 32nm fab process or some ****.


----------



## .Sup

olor1n said:


> The Mjolnir/HD800 pairing exposes a noticeable difference between usb and optical for me. Not sure if it's due to implementation on my late 2011 MBP, or just the differences inherent in the Bifrost's inputs. Usb (Furutech Formula 2 fwiw) has more bite, with a hint of grain and dryness in some recordings. Optical is smoother and more laid-back, clearer despite the less distinct edges giving the overall presentation a slightly smeared quality.
> 
> I caught a glimpse of this when I previously had the Lyr between the Bifrost and headphone. The Mjolnir lays it bare. I prefer optical in my system.



Most of my experiences with optical vs USB have been that optical was smoother, blacker, laid back as you said while USB has been brighter and more aggressive. Almost as if optical went through slightly excessive power conditioning.


----------



## Meoow

Quote: 





olor1n said:


> The Mjolnir/HD800 pairing exposes a noticeable difference between usb and optical for me. Not sure if it's due to implementation on my late 2011 MBP, or just the differences inherent in the Bifrost's inputs. Usb (Furutech Formula 2 fwiw) has more bite, with a hint of grain and dryness in some recordings. Optical is smoother and more laid-back, clearer despite the less distinct edges giving the overall presentation a slightly smeared quality.
> 
> I caught a glimpse of this when I previously had the Lyr between the Bifrost and headphone. The Mjolnir lays it bare. I prefer optical in my system.


 
   
  Wow, that is the exact experience I got from testing USB vs Optical through my E17. I am glad that I am not the only one 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. That is why I didn't waste the extra $100 for USB support when I bought the Bifrost as I prefer Optical sounding more than USB.


----------



## shaunybaby

I can,t seem to dig up much on the new MJOLNIR amp by schiit can anyone link my to a article about people taking about them?


----------



## pelli

Quote: 





shaunybaby said:


> I can,t seem to dig up much on the new MJOLNIR amp by schiit can anyone link my to a article about people taking about them?


 
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/603218/schiit-mjolnir-headphone-amplifier/645


----------



## paradoxper

^


----------



## Mr.Tom

Quote: 





shaunybaby said:


> I can,t seem to dig up much on the new MJOLNIR amp by schiit can anyone link my to a article about people taking about them?


 
  Are you for real?
   
http://www.head-fi.org/search.php?advanced=1&search=MJOLNIR&titleonly=1&byuser=&output=all&replycompare=gt&numupdates=&sdate=0&newer=1&sort=relevance&order=descending&Search=SEARCH


----------



## .Sup

shaunybaby said:


> I can,t seem to dig up much on the new MJOLNIR amp by schiit can anyone link my to a article about people taking about them?



http://www.head-fi.org/t/603218/schiit-mjolnir-headphone-amplifier


----------



## judmarc

Quote:


olor1n said:


> The Mjolnir/HD800 pairing exposes a noticeable difference between usb and optical for me. Not sure if it's due to implementation on my late 2011 MBP, or just the differences inherent in the Bifrost's inputs. Usb (Furutech Formula 2 fwiw) has more bite, with a hint of grain and dryness in some recordings. Optical is smoother and more laid-back, clearer despite the less distinct edges giving the overall presentation a slightly smeared quality.
> 
> I caught a glimpse of this when I previously had the Lyr between the Bifrost and headphone. The Mjolnir lays it bare. I prefer optical in my system.


 
   
  OK, so here goes the ol' slippery slope....
   
  I had the same experience _with the Furutech_.  Audioquest Forest (~$30), Carbon (~$110) and Coffee (~$175 - got a deal from the dealer and one for financing on top of it), as well as the Wireworld Starlight (~$90) all sounded considerably better to me, the Audioquests sounding best.  I preferred all except the Furutech to optical.
   
  For all those who don't believe in any differences between digital cables, can you kindly just put this down to soft-headedness on my part?  Thanks


----------



## ninjikiran

When you think about it, optical technically has perfected the form of power conditioning.  Sending probably the cleanest signal to your dac if you disregard the jitter caused by the transmitter and receivers and reflections. 
   
  Due to HDMI I doubt optical audio transmission will progress any further but if it did and they perfected it.  I think optical could easily become the best technology.  Possibly in the future, that will be how we get video.  Optical, laser, whatever.  Its a beam of lighted goodness.


----------



## jsplice

Has anyone compared the Bifrost head to head with the PS Audio DL III?  I'm curious how these two would compare, since I own a DL III.  Just bought a Lyr a few weeks ago, and I am loving it.


----------



## rated1975

Its the end of August. Where's the Gungnir? Any updates?


----------



## grokit

We certainly wouldn't want it rushed out _prematurely_, would we?
   
  I agree that an update would be nice.


----------



## Anathallo

Quote: 





rated1975 said:


> Its the end of August. Where's the Gungnir? Any updates?


 
   
  Tomorrow is the end of August.  30 days has september, april, june and november.


----------



## rated1975

Quote: 





anathallo said:


> Tomorrow is the end of August.  30 days has september, april, june and november.


 

 Well then let me think............that gives Schiit one more day to release the Gungnir


----------



## Jason Stoddard

Here's your update: we're currently building Gungnir, but it'll be a few more days before we're shipping. People on the pre-order list will be notified when they can place their orders first.
   
  "You can have it _right,_ or you can have it _right now."_


----------



## Questhate




----------



## Anaxilus

Here's the express Gungnir that will be shipping for those who can't wait.


----------



## IEMCrazy

Quote: 





anaxilus said:


> Here's the express Gungnir that will be shipping for those who can't wait.


 
   
  You've been hanging around Jason for *way* too long!


----------



## judmarc

Quote: 





anaxilus said:


> Here's the express Gungnir that will be shipping for those who can't wait.


 
   
  Meanwhile, settle back and have a cuppa...


----------



## pietro944

Quote: 





anaxilus said:


> Here's the express Gungnir that will be shipping for those who can't wait.


 
  HA,Ha.....I have that little cmoy amp


----------



## crooner

LOL!!!!
   




  Quote: 





judmarc said:


> Meanwhile, settle back and have a cuppa...


----------



## mykyll2727

I received an email from Schitt/Jason today, preorder for the Gungnir is now open and shipping next week!


----------



## remilio

Have anybody tested, is Bifrost sensitive to the quality of usb to spdif converters? I have a USB version, so never tried SPDIF, but increasing quantity of reviews saying that coax input is quite better stimulated me


----------



## justie

Actually, when they sayt the DACs click do they mean u hear it from the headphones? or is it just a click coming from the dac externally (not sure how to word this XD)


----------



## paradoxper

Quote: 





justie said:


> Actually, when they sayt the DACs click do they mean u hear it from the headphones? or is it just a click coming from the dac externally (not sure how to word this XD)


 
  My Bifrost clicked through the headphones I think. I mostly use open cans so it's hard to remember. 
   
  But you do hear the mute/relay audbily coming from Bifrost externally.


----------



## justie

Quote: 





paradoxper said:


> My Bifrost clicked through the headphones I think. I mostly use open cans so it's hard to remember.
> 
> But you do hear the mute/relay audbily coming from Bifrost externally.


 
  Ah, ok. I dont mind an external mute/relay but sudden muting of my music would be quite annoying :x


----------



## paradoxper

Quote: 





justie said:


> Ah, ok. I dont mind an external mute/relay but sudden muting of my music would be quite annoying :x


 
  No, that mute/relay is upon turn on and shut off. Turn on Bifrost 20 secs later you'll hear the click.
   
  You'll get the clicking through the headphones upon pausing a song or having no audio playing.  Like a nice irritating reminder
  that Bifrost wants to be fed.


----------



## Yuceka

Quote: 





justie said:


> Actually, when they sayt the DACs click do they mean u hear it from the headphones? or is it just a click coming from the dac externally (not sure how to word this XD)


 

 Clicking noise comes from the DAC not through your headphones.


----------



## Defiant00

I only get a click from the actual DAC, nothing through the headphones.


----------



## Uncle00Jesse

the clicking is out of control. it drives me nuts. i hear clicking every time i hit the back button in an internet browser among many other normal computer processes.


----------



## Maxvla

Turn off windows sounds.


----------



## Defiant00

Quote: 





uncle00jesse said:


> the clicking is out of control. it drives me nuts. i hear clicking every time i hit the back button in an internet browser among many other normal computer processes.


 
   
  Yeah, it clicks at sound start and stop to mute and unmute itself, just disable Windows sounds or have music playing and it shouldn't anymore.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





maxvla said:


> Turn off windows sounds.


 
   
  I run system sounds through the computer's internal speaker so it doesn't interfere with the music/DAC.


----------



## beancounter0

Quick question on Bifrost and USB vs S/PDIF - assuming I am restricted to a laptop w/ USB out only, would I get better sound with the Bifrost optional USB board, or with a Hiface 2 USB/spdif converter?
   
   
  My apologies if this has been asked before....


----------



## rune-san

I have very little experience with S/PDIF converters but in all honesty the USB board in the BiFrost is top notch and I'm extremely happy with the sound from mine.


----------



## Anathallo

I find the USB input vastly inferior to optical and coaxial on my Bifrost.  By leaps and bounds.


----------



## lja1125

Hi,

I'm wondering there is anyway to connect Idevice to bifrost.


----------



## munchzilla

you should try the Apple Camera Connection Kit (CCK). there is a discussion of it here: http://www.head-fi.org/t/507559/list-of-dacs-that-work-with-ipad/
   
  and some explanations.


----------



## grokit

That's for the iPad only, for the rest the Pure i20 is the least expensive way to go.


----------



## Killbox

If I connect my Bifrost to my secondary computer via toslink I hear a click sound when I click back in forth in windows folders. Just like the click sound when you turn it on. How can I get rid of this issue?


----------



## Anathallo

Quote: 





killbox said:


> If I connect my Bifrost to my secondary computer via toslink I hear a click sound when I click back in forth in windows folders. Just like the click sound when you turn it on. How can I get rid of this issue?


 
  Turn off Windows sounds, use a separate sound card for output to the Bifrost, use a different output device for windows sounds, or something else along those lines.


----------



## grokit

Routing system sounds through the computer's onboard speaker works for me, that way I can hear them when I'm not wearing my headphones and when I am they won't bother me.


----------



## 188479

> I find the USB input vastly inferior to optical and coaxial on my Bifrost. By leaps and bounds.




X2


----------



## grokit

If the USB is all that bad compared to the other inputs on the Gungnir, my configuration will be with converters:
   

 Mac Mini > Musical Fidelity Vlink 192  > coaxial
 iPad (with CCK) > Firestone Bravo > optical
 Guest/Windows laptop > USB
   
  But I will try the USB direct to the Apple machines first to compare.


----------



## paradoxper

Quote: 





grokit said:


> If the USB is all that bad compared to the other inputs on the Gungnir, my configuration will be with converters:
> 
> 
> Mac Mini > Musical Fidelity Vlink 192  > coaxial
> ...


 
  And if USB is not noticeably any better or worse than optical or coaxial. What will you decide to use?


----------



## grokit

If there's no need for the converters, I will not use them. I have found this to vary from DAC to DAC and from source to source.
   
  But since only one computer can connect via USB anyways, may end up using the converters for flexibility (connecting iPad, guest laptop, etc).


----------



## Yuceka

Quote: 





grokit said:


> If there's no need for the converters, I will not use them. I have found this to vary from DAC to DAC and from source to source.
> 
> But since only one computer can connect via USB anyways, may end up using the converters for flexibility (connecting iPad, guest laptop, etc).


 
  Looking forward to your findings Grokit as I just sold my Macbook Pro and got a Macbook Air instead.


----------



## jsplice

Quote: 





188479 said:


> X2


 
   
  Quote: 





anathallo said:


> I find the USB input vastly inferior to optical and coaxial on my Bifrost.  By leaps and bounds.


 
   
  Could you guys comment as to why you find the USB to be vastly inferior?  What differences in sound do you notice?


----------



## paradoxper

Quote: 





jsplice said:


> Could you guys comment as to why you find the USB to be vastly inferior?  What differences in sound do you notice?


 
  I disagree. I prefer optical. And FWIW Jason finds no difference between the two.


----------



## grokit




----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





paradoxper said:


> I disagree. I prefer optical. And FWIW Jason finds no difference between the two.


 
   
  It also depends on which/what SPDIF is going into the DAC.  It's not just the DAC side you have to worry about.  I've have 4 different optical outs in front of me and they all sound different.  YAY digital!!


----------



## Anathallo

Quote: 





paradoxper said:


> I disagree. I prefer optical. And FWIW Jason finds no difference between the two.


 
   
  I don't understand why you disagree?  I prefer optical as well......?
   
  I found the USB had sharp roll-off in the bass past 80hz - and besides that I found the sound flat and lacking in dynamics.  But the latter two are just subjective mumbo jumbo.  The bass roll-off was the big issue.


----------



## Misterrogers

Guys - as Anax said, many factors come into play with why one connector may sound better on your system than another. If you need/choose to stick with USB, I'd pick up a top quality powered hub. Hubs like the Vaunix have the added benefit of greater noise isolation. You're dealing with the quality of parts/implementation of the sending unit (laptop, etc.), noise, power, blah blah. As always, use the one that sounds best to your hears


----------



## IEMCrazy

Quote: 





> Could you guys comment as to why you find the USB to be vastly inferior?  What differences in sound do you notice?


 
   
  Quote: 





paradoxper said:


> I disagree. I prefer optical. And FWIW Jason finds no difference between the two.


 
   




   
  I like pie.


----------



## paradoxper

Quote: 





anathallo said:


> I don't understand why you disagree?  I prefer optical as well......?
> 
> I found the USB had sharp roll-off in the bass past 80hz - and besides that I found the sound flat and lacking in dynamics.  But the latter two are just subjective mumbo jumbo.  The bass roll-off was the big issue.


 
  Jsplice posted the comment of why you guys find USB to be vastly inferior. I simply said I disagree and prefer optical. Not vastly prefer it. And that others find no difference
  between the two. YMMV, but that's a given.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





anathallo said:


> I find the USB input vastly inferior to optical and coaxial on my Bifrost.  By leaps and bounds.


 
   
  Quote: 





paradoxper said:


> I disagree. I prefer optical. And FWIW Jason finds no difference between the two.


 
   
   
  This is what got me 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, it seems like these two statements are actually in agreement that optical is better than USB. But perhaps it's not *Anathallo *that *paradoxper* is disagreeing with?


----------



## paradoxper

Quote: 





grokit said:


> This is what got me
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Lol. Kev and Anathallo are both in agreement that USB is *vastly* inferior. Jspilce asked why this was the case. I interjected and said
  I disagree. And that I only *prefer* optical. And that others don't find a difference between the two.
   
  We're only in agreement that we find optical better than USB. But to me "vastly" is the same as "night and day" and doesn't have a place
  when describing audio gear. It's not very meaningful and only hyperbole.


----------



## Anathallo

Quote: 





paradoxper said:


> Lol. Kev and Anathallo are both in agreement that USB is *vastly* inferior. Jspilce asked why this was the case. I interjected and said
> I disagree. And that I only *prefer* optical. And that others don't find a difference between the two.
> 
> We're only in agreement that we find optical better than USB. But to me "vastly" is the same as "night and day" and doesn't have a place
> when describing audio gear. It's not very meaningful and only hyperbole.


 
   
   
  I agree the source of the digital signal into the DAC will change things between setups, but when I can't hear anything below 80hz, I feel that saying USB is vastly inferior is not hyperbole at all.  As always, YMMV, but USB in my setup is -- really, and honestly -- vastly inferior.  
   
  I can hear down to 20hz with optical - can't hear anything below 80 with usb.  How is that not a major issue in your opinion?


----------



## paradoxper

Quote: 





anathallo said:


> I agree the source of the digital signal into the DAC will change things between setups, but when I can't hear anything below 80hz, I feel that saying USB is vastly inferior is not hyperbole at all.  As always, YMMV, but USB in my setup is -- really, and honestly -- vastly inferior.
> 
> I can hear down to 20hz with optical - can't hear anything below 80 with usb.  How is that not a major issue in your opinion?


 
  Perhaps placebo, maybe my hearing is shot. IMO, vast and night and day, dont' exist in audio. Tell me I'm wrong or right.
  Or let my opinion be.
   
  I am not going to sit here and tell you your experience is wrong, I will however say my experience is the opposite. For whatever reason.
  My setup is not under controlled testing conditions, so there's no real answer here. For me at least, I'm not sure about you though.
   
  Share your experiences, as I'll share mine...and so forth. No one is wrong or right here.


----------



## Yuceka

For the first time I was able to do A/B'ing between my Macbook Pro's optical and Macbook Air's USB on the Bifrost. And I actually preferred the USB and I can understand why someone may say it's optical that is better. But is there night and day difference between the two? In my experience absolutely no.


----------



## Blackford

Why is it difficult to understand that people hear differently? Does this difference mean one is more correct or superior? *shakes head*


----------



## Roscoeiii

Quote: 





anathallo said:


> I agree the source of the digital signal into the DAC will change things between setups, but when I can't hear anything below 80hz, I feel that saying USB is vastly inferior is not hyperbole at all.  As always, YMMV, but USB in my setup is -- really, and honestly -- vastly inferior.
> 
> I can hear down to 20hz with optical - can't hear anything below 80 with usb.  How is that not a major issue in your opinion?


 

 If you aren't hearing anything below 80 Hz, that would indicate a defective USB input to me. I would contact Schiit about that. No serious audio company would send a piece of electronics out into this world with that sort problem with one of its inputs. There is a problem somewhere (the DAC USB input or your USB source) that needs to be solved.


----------



## Roscoeiii

Bitfrost has a stated frequency response of 2Hz-100KHz, -1dB, Gungnir has a stated freq response of 1Hz-100KHz, -1dB.


----------



## Anathallo

Quote: 





roscoeiii said:


> If you aren't hearing anything below 80 Hz, that would indicate a defective USB input to me. I would contact Schiit about that. No serious audio company would send a piece of electronics out into this world with that sort problem with one of its inputs. There is a problem somewhere (the DAC USB input or your USB source) that needs to be solved.


 
   
  Maybe if I were to get another DAC, but I like the Bifrost, don't wanna send it out for repairs even if it is defective.  Maybe get a new USB receiver or something (take advantage of the modular feature that was marketed so hard) sometime in the future.


----------



## Roscoeiii

Then you should probably add to your other posts "it may be the case that this is a defective USB module, but I refuse to do something about it."


----------



## Anathallo

But it also may not be the case - I have no experience with other Bifrosts.  There was a request for opinions, and I stated mine.


----------



## Roscoeiii

Yes, it may not be the case. But readers of your statements should be aware that you are unwilling to seriously explore the possibility that there is a problem with your USB input (or the USB output of your source). No manufacturer would sell an audio device with no freq response below 80 Hz. There seems to be a real problem with your unit or something else in your set-up. I'd at least call Schiit if you haven't already to discuss this problem. If you aren't using your USB module, you could easily remove it and send it to Schiit for testing. Or they could help you determine if something else in your set-up may be causing this lack of info below 80Hz. No small complaint (at least for a basshead like myself).


----------



## justie

from the gungnir thread
  Quote:


jason stoddard said:


> Bingo.
> 
> Aaannd...
> 
> ...


----------



## TexasBuck

Connection question:  If I get the Schitt Bifrost and the Schitt Asgard, I will have to use the RCA input/outputs to connect the Bifrost to the Asgard.  How would I also connect powered speakers with RCA jacks to the Bifrost, given there is only one set of RCA input/outputs on both devices?


----------



## Defiant00

texasbuck said:


> Connection question:  If I get the Schitt Bifrost and the Schitt Asgard, I will have to use the RCA input/outputs to connect the Bifrost to the Asgard.  How would I also connect powered speakers with RCA jacks to the Bifrost, given there is only one set of RCA input/outputs on both devices?




Get a set of RCA splitters (not sure of the technical term if there even is one, but basically a set of Y cables) and run it to both your Asgard and speakers.


----------



## TexasBuck

Quote: 





defiant00 said:


> Get a set of RCA splitters (not sure of the technical term if there even is one, but basically a set of Y cables) and run it to both your Asgard and speakers.


 
  Ah.  OK.  Thanks.  A couple of these guys, right?


----------



## Defiant00

texasbuck said:


> Ah.  OK.  Thanks.  A couple of these guys, right?




That looks right. I was actually thinking male to male, but what you posted would probably be even better since then you can use whatever length cable you want for each separately.


----------



## korzena

What is the width of soundstage in Bifrost?
  Do you think Bifrost has a big soundstage (especially in width) in comparison to other DACs (let's say up to $700)?
   
  I am looking for a suitable DAC for my LCD2.2 (driven from Schitt Lyr) that will give me more air and larger soundstage in LCD2.
  Would you recommend me Bifrost or some other DACs?


----------



## TubeDriver

I think the bifrost has about average soundstage width (compared to DacMagic and Dragonfly) but above average depth and layering within the soundstage.


----------



## Roscoeiii

Quote: 





defiant00 said:


> That looks right. I was actually thinking male to male, but what you posted would probably be even better since then you can use whatever length cable you want for each separately.


 

 I think sonically you would be better off with an adaptor that is solid metal as opposed to having IC wire of dubious quality. Something like these:
   
  http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=091-1045
   
  or these:
   
  http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=091-515


----------



## Defiant00

Quote: 





roscoeiii said:


> I think sonically you would be better off with an adaptor that is solid metal as opposed to having IC wire of dubious quality. Something like these:
> 
> http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=091-1045
> 
> ...


 
   
  Those seem like an excellent idea as well; I was more confirming the general connectors, not attempting to judge potential sound quality impact (although I am not a cable believer beyond basic verifiable physical phenomena).


----------



## TexasBuck

Quote: 





defiant00 said:


> Those seem like an excellent idea as well; I was more confirming the general connectors, not attempting to judge potential sound quality impact (although I am not a cable believer beyond basic verifiable physical phenomena).


 

 Thanks to both *Roscoeiii* and Defiant00 for their help with my question.


----------



## korzena

Quote: 





tubedriver said:


> I think the bifrost has about average soundstage width (compared to DacMagic and Dragonfly) but above average depth and layering within the soundstage.


 

 For me LCD2.2's depth is already OK. The width of soundstage is what I am missing. In this case, I presume I should look for other (than Bifrost) DAC...


----------



## TubeDriver

Perhaps, soundstage width may be limited in my system due to my components (big horn speakers). I think the Bifrost is an excellent DAC, it is in a completely different league to the well regarded Dragonfly DAC for example.


----------



## kLevkoff

It's kind of annoying that optical digital audio hasn't attracted more interest.
   
  The problem really is more one of interest (commercial) than any need for an improvement in the technology itself.
  Optical network hardware has been used for years, and has absurdly high bandwidth and maximum range.
   
  The problem is that there is a step up in price when you go from Toslink to "real" digital optical links.
  A set of receiver and transmitter that can handle GIGABITS easily, and has a reach of several kilometers, costs in the $1000 range.
   
  As with most other computer technology, if commercial interest (aka sales volume) were to go way up, the price would drop like a rock.
  Honestly, though, HDMI looks like it might be "the next audio thing" - in which case optical will remain stalled until it gets a turn.
  (I'm a bit surprised that optical VIDEO isn't giving HDMI a run - since you would be able to get much better distance than with HDMI....
  although, I guess, not that many people want to run their video across the house...)
   
  If you think about it, optical probably IS how you get your video.....
  most of the cable companies use fiber for their main trunk lines already - it just hasn't caught on inside the house.
   
  Quote: 





ninjikiran said:


> When you think about it, optical technically has perfected the form of power conditioning.  Sending probably the cleanest signal to your dac if you disregard the jitter caused by the transmitter and receivers and reflections.
> 
> Due to HDMI I doubt optical audio transmission will progress any further but if it did and they perfected it.  I think optical could easily become the best technology.  Possibly in the future, that will be how we get video.  Optical, laser, whatever.  Its a beam of lighted goodness.


----------



## kLevkoff

You need to read up on the various TYPES of USB audio transfer.
   
  The "lower forms" of USB allow the computer to send the data when it chooses (in adaptive, there is feedback which adjusts the rate, but the actual clocking is still erratic). Since most DACs derive their clocks from the data, if the data flow isn't perfectly smooth, the DAC gets an unstable clock (otherwise called jitter). Since the analog output is dependent on both correct data, and on that data being clocked at the correct times, the end result is rather unpleasant distortion. Because the computer is multitasking, and just because it wasn't designed otherwise, it's hopeless to try and improve the output timing on the computer to a sufficient degree to fix the problem. [Check out a cool open source thing called CPlay for more about that...] (And, the DAC HAS to let the computer control the timing, otherwise it might run out of data or overflow its buffer - if it even has one - which most don't.)
   
  Modern USB implementations use a mode called ASYNCHRONOUS USB, which allows the DAC to request data when it wants it. Of course, the computer still can't be trusted to send the data out at precisely the correct times. The big deal, however, is that, since the DAC controls data flow, you can put a buffer inside the DAC (because the DAC controls the data flow, it can keep the buffer from under- or over-running). Now you can clock the data out of the buffer by a local clock in the DAC, which pretty much eliminates the whole timing problem. There are still issues where the computer may actually fail to send packets, or otherwise screw up, but most of that is under the programmer's control. [The programming we're talking about resides on the USB interface chip, which is really a microcontroller with its own code.]  USB is considered to have much more jitter than optical, which is worse than S/PDif - opinions vary. However, Asynch USB should eliminate this entirely.
   
   
  Quote: 





> Oh yes, and as a programmer I'd be curious in an actual technical explanation as to why USB as a protocol isn't ideal for streaming audio, since it's not like it's a lot of data and it's not like it requires much effort to keep a buffer full of data. I can understand an appreciation of a dedicated method just for audio (simplicity is always nice), but complexity doesn't inherently make something inferior.


----------



## niten

tubedriver said:


> Perhaps, soundstage width may be limited in my system due to my components (big horn speakers). I think the Bifrost is an excellent DAC, it is in a completely different league to the well regarded Dragonfly DAC for example.




Although I have nothing against the Bifrost, I find it unfair to speak its qualities in comparison to the Dragonfly. I find that the Dragonfly is "well regarded," as you put it, largely because of its small form factor. That the Dragonfly is able to keep a relatively high level of quality taking into consideration its incredibly convenient size. Comparing that to a full sized desktop DAC does no justice to either of these quality products.


----------



## Roscoeiii

Quote: 





niten said:


> Although I have nothing against the Bifrost, I find it unfair to speak its qualities in comparison to the Dragonfly. I find that the Dragonfly is "well regarded," as you put it, largely because of its small form factor. That the Dragonfly is able to keep a relatively high level of quality taking into consideration its incredibly convenient size. Comparing that to a full sized desktop DAC does no justice to either of these quality products.


 

 A good point. The comparison would be much more notable if the Dragonfly in fact outperformed the BitFrost.


----------



## TubeDriver

Quote: 





niten said:


> Although I have nothing against the Bifrost, I find it unfair to speak its qualities in comparison to the Dragonfly. I find that the Dragonfly is "well regarded," as you put it, largely because of its small form factor. That the Dragonfly is able to keep a relatively high level of quality taking into consideration its incredibly convenient size. Comparing that to a full sized desktop DAC does no justice to either of these quality products.


 

 Art Dudley found the Dragonfly as good or better than his reference DAC (Wavelength Proton).  RH in TAS gave the Dragonfly a remarkably good review.  I found the Dragon a fairly decent sounding DAC in a remarkably small box.  I just can't report hearing the quality of sound from the Dragonfly reported in many reviews, I think the Schiit Bifrost is much better sounding.  That being said, the Dragonfly is a cool idea and a step up from the soundcard in my PC and Mac computers.


----------



## bensl

i am considering buying a used bifrost.  unfortunately it has no box or manual.  has anyone come across a manual online?


----------



## Defiant00

Quote: 





bensl said:


> i am considering buying a used bifrost.  unfortunately it has no box or manual.  has anyone come across a manual online?


 
   
  While their manuals are hilarious I'd say they're also entirely unnecessary since Schiit's products are intentionally very simple/focused.
   
  And in my opinion that's entirely a compliment; they do one thing and do it very well and are simple enough that you shouldn't ever need a manual except for a laugh.


----------



## bensl

emailed schiit directly and got a reply with a pdf copy in minutes! great service.
   
  and yes, i can now see what you mean...


----------



## paradoxper

Quote: 





defiant00 said:


> While their manuals are hilarious I'd say they're also entirely unnecessary since Schiit's products are intentionally very simple/focused.
> 
> And in my opinion that's entirely a compliment; they do one thing and do it very well and are simple enough that you shouldn't ever need a manual except for a laugh.


 
  I would say they are necessary. Considering some of the questions asked over time.
   
  I particularly like this FAQ:
   
*It doesn't turn on, what do i do?*
  "Plug it in to a different AC socket. Ensure you are not currently in a blackout.
  Then call us if it still doesn't turn on".


----------



## Defiant00

Quote: 





paradoxper said:


> I would say they are necessary. Considering some of the questions asked over time.
> 
> I particularly like this FAQ:
> 
> ...


 
   
  You have an excellent point.
   
  And yes, great advice as usual from Schiit


----------



## grokit

So is there any chance that the upcoming statement DAC will it have HDMI and/or AES/EBU inputs?


----------



## paradoxper

Quote: 





grokit said:


> So is there any chance that the upcoming statement DAC will it have HDMI and/or AES/EBU inputs?


 
  You are desperate for some specs.


----------



## grokit

Not really, I just want to know how the feature set competes with others in the category like the M51 for example.


----------



## paradoxper

Quote: 





grokit said:


> Not really, I just want to know how the feature set competes with others in the category like the M51 for example.


 
  Well you posted in another thread, so I figured since you couldn't wait..
   
  I still don't think anyone knows.


----------



## grokit

Yeah this thread seems more appropriate. But what I meant is that I am looking more for features not specs.


----------



## Mediahound

Quote: 





jman06 said:


> I found this to be true as well.  On occasion I use my MacBook Pro as my source.  I have used both optical and USB and to me the optical sounded just plain dull and the USB was clearly better.  I thought it was my optical cable, but then I used it with my Oppo, PC, and Squeezebox Touch (feeding the Bifrost) and they sounded much better.  Now I am using optical from my PC and USB from Mac.  For cables I used the Audioquest Forest for optical and Audioquest Coffee for USB.  My MacBook Pro is a 2010 model if that makes any difference.


 
  This is interesting. I have a Mac Pro and always thought optical was better but apparently different Mac models may have varying optical out quality. I just switched to USB on my Bifrost and think it sounds richer and a bit less thin. 
   
  I fully recognize this could be a placebo affect however I think I'll run with USB on my Mac for now. 
   
  An added plus is my *Bifrost is no longer clicking at all when on USB!*


----------



## niten

Statement dac still on schedule?


----------



## Anathallo

Quote: 





niten said:


> Statement dac still on schedule?


 
   
  I thought it was more of a "it's done when it's done" sort of thing.


----------



## Maxvla

niten said:


> Statement dac still on schedule?



Delayed til early 2013.


----------



## Benjamin6264

I have contacted Jason a while ago, and again more recently. What I've been told is that the statement DAC will have AES/EBU input, and that SACD/DSD, if there is ever any, will be in a separate unit (a whole new product, if you will).


----------



## Chipbyrd

Hello,

I want to begin by stating I am a novice where computer audio is concerned.  But I am hearing great things about the Gungnir.  I am wondering how it woold stack up against the M2Tech Young?

Anyway... I have a Yamaha A-S 2000 integrated amp that is quite nice, but it does present a problem.  The max input voltage for single ended and XLR is 2.8v.  Can someone tell me the output of the Gungnir?  Is it the same for single ended an XLR?

Thanks for the help,
Chip


----------



## Erukian

Quote: 





chipbyrd said:


> Hello,
> I want to begin by stating I am a novice where computer audio is concerned.  But I am hearing great things about the Gungnir.  I am wondering how it woold stack up against the M2Tech Young?
> Anyway... I have a Yamaha A-S 2000 integrated amp that is quite nice, but it does present a problem.  The max input voltage for single ended and XLR is 2.8v.  Can someone tell me the output of the Gungnir?  Is it the same for single ended an XLR?
> Thanks for the help,
> Chip


 
   
  Gungnir Maximum Output: 4.0V RMS  (balanced), 2.0V RMS (single-ended)


----------



## Elysian

The Bifrost is a wonderful DAC.  I'm very impressed with it at the price-performance level.  It has a good soundstage and doesn't sound narrow or flat like most sub-$400 DACs.  Detail retrieval is really great and is the best I've heard in its pricing tier.  The sound doesn't seem warm or colored.  It does have a bit of that solid state sounding etch, but unless you're used to summit-fi DACs, it's not that noticeable.  I think I could easily add it to most systems and not feel that it was the weak link.  It's being used in a Baby Orpheus setup and is doing very nicely.  I tested all three inputs (Toslink, coax, and USB).  They all sound very similar to me.  My favorite is the USB, surprisingly, because I usually don't like most USB implementations, and it slightly edges out the Toslink and coax.  I think I heard a slight improvement with the coax over Toslink, but another person listening liked the Toslink more, and I need to spend more time with the Bifrost to feel confident to say whether I really notice a difference between the two inputs.

 If anyone is replacing a warm DAC with the Bifrost, the Bifrost may come off as a bit less musical and uninvolving.  It'll mostly come down to personal preference and how picky the listener is.  I can see some people preferring a more colored DAC.

 As much as most people don't want to hear this, the Bifrost improves with better cabling.  I replaced the stock USB with a Wireworld Ultraviolet and the power cord with a 14AWG Monoprice cable, and both tweaks softened the etch without damaging the detail.  The Ultraviolet cable made the bigger difference, but both were immediately audible going back and forth.  It got better with a Wireworld Starlight and Acoustic Revive USB-1.0SP, but at that point it's probably better to look at the Gungnir.  I don't doubt that a quality converter like an Audiophilleo 2 will improve the USB input, but I haven't tried my own USB/SPDIF converter with the Bifrost.

 Particularly given Jason and Schiit's remarkable customer service and warranty, I think the Bifrost is a phenomenal starting DAC for most, and it's also a good starting point for people looking to move from a portable to desktop system.  Knowing what I do now, if I was just getting into the hobby, I think a Bifrost is one of the best places to start at for a quality source.  One of the best things about the Bifrost is no opamp switching nonsense.  Hurrah completely discrete analog output section.

 I haven't had any clicking issues.  The Bifrost clicks once when it turns on and only clicks when I change inputs.  It's connected to a Windows machine set at default 16/44 playback, and only plays 16/44 lossless in Foobar.  I'm suspecting people with clicking issues have a default playback of something other than 16/44, or have an inconsistent music library.


----------



## paradoxper

I think you need to get your hands on the Gungnir. Glad you finally got some Schiit. Bifrost has to be one of the best values out there.


----------



## Elysian

I'll be keeping a lookout for a used Gungnir once the prices go down   I bought the Bifrost for my girlfriend who is enjoying it quite a bit.
   
  One day I'll upgrade my Berkeley, but my dream DAC is currently the TOTALDAC D-1 Reference.  If Schiit does plan to make a balls to the wall ladder DAC, I'll be first in line.


----------



## themouse

Quote: 





elysian said:


> I haven't had any clicking issues.  The Bifrost clicks once when it turns on and only clicks when I change inputs.  It's connected to a Windows machine set at default 16/44 playback, and only plays 16/44 lossless in Foobar.  I'm suspecting people with clicking issues have a default playback of something other than 16/44, or have an inconsistent music library.


 
   
  With USB the computer and the DAC are communicating all the time. The signal will lock immediately. The Bryston has a lock light. The W4S DAC-2 shows the Hz of the signal. The Schiit 'clicks'. No matter whether music is playing or not this communication is steady and the Schiit does not click again until the connection is broken.
   
  With Toslink you have a direct stream from the computer to the DAC without negotiation. So when digital music begins, the BDA-1 lock lights, the W4S shows the frequency and the Schiit 'clicks'. Once you stop iTunes or your player you will the hear the click of the lost signal. Then back on again once you begin playing again.
   
  I do find the constant clicking of the Schiit (Gungnir) annoying. But I have found a trick. If you use Airfoil to send music (Mac) it broadcasts all the time. So again there is an initial click and then no more until you quit the program.


----------



## Mediahound

themouse said:


> With USB the computer and the DAC are communicating all the time. The signal will lock immediately. The Bryston has a lock light. The W4S DAC-2 shows the Hz of the signal. The Schiit 'clicks'. No matter whether music is playing or not this communication is steady and the Schiit does not click again until the connection is broken.
> 
> With Toslink you have a direct stream from the computer to the DAC without negotiation. So when digital music begins, the BDA-1 lock lights, the W4S shows the frequency and the Schiit 'clicks'. Once you stop iTunes or your player you will the hear the click of the lost signal. Then back on again once you begin playing again.
> 
> I do find the constant clicking of the Schiit (Gungnir) annoying. But I have found a trick. If you use Airfoil to send music (Mac) it broadcasts all the time. So again there is an initial click and then no more until you quit the program.




I just switched to USB, no clicking at all and I cannot tell any sound quality difference.


----------



## justie

In case anyone is wondering, if ur NOT using wasapi in foobar, windows 7 actually automatically upsample/downsample ur signal to whatever u have set in ur pc sound settings in control panel. If the signal is up/downsampled via software already, no clicking will occur.


----------



## judmarc

Quote: 





benjamin6264 said:


> I have contacted Jason a while ago, and again more recently. What I've been told is that the statement DAC will have AES/EBU input, and that SACD/DSD, if there is ever any, will be in a separate unit (a whole new product, if you will).


 
   
  So interesting how respected industry vets can think very differently about certain issues.  See Paul McGowan's (PS Audio) take on DSD here: http://www.pstracks.com/pauls-posts/ps-dsd/8946/
   
  My player does on-the-fly conversion of DSD to PCM, allowing me to play it through my Bifrost, and to me it sounds great.  I'm thinking it would sound even better if the DSD signal didn't have to be converted, and could be handled in native format by the DAC.  But Jason and Mike have made their decision for separate-if-any DSD-capable hardware after an extensive survey of their customer base here.  As it is, I'm looking forward to what the statement DAC will bring.


----------



## Misterrogers

Yep, it's a hot topic. I've been listening to DSD natively with both of my DAC's for quite some time now, and to my hears - a good recording played natively via DSD is the best I've ever heard digital music. I certainly can't get all the music I'd like in SACD format, but still - I find my listening biased toward the good DSDs; it's that much better to me. I've talked to Jason (as others have) about this, and I understand why they're not going after DSD in their mainline products. I realize that given the encryption issues around SACD/DSD - not many are pursuing this. No matter; with a little effort - the components are readily available in the DIY world to put together a best of breed DAC that handles native DSD like a champ.
  Quote: 





judmarc said:


> So interesting how respected industry vets can think very differently about certain issues.  See Paul McGowan's (PS Audio) take on DSD here: http://www.pstracks.com/pauls-posts/ps-dsd/8946/
> 
> My player does on-the-fly conversion of DSD to PCM, allowing me to play it through my Bifrost, and to me it sounds great.  I'm thinking it would sound even better if the DSD signal didn't have to be converted, and could be handled in native format by the DAC.  But Jason and Mike have made their decision for separate-if-any DSD-capable hardware after an extensive survey of their customer base here.  As it is, I'm looking forward to what the statement DAC will bring.


----------



## Jason Stoddard

Quote: 





judmarc said:


> So interesting how respected industry vets can think very differently about certain issues.  See Paul McGowan's (PS Audio) take on DSD here: http://www.pstracks.com/pauls-posts/ps-dsd/8946/
> 
> My player does on-the-fly conversion of DSD to PCM, allowing me to play it through my Bifrost, and to me it sounds great.  I'm thinking it would sound even better if the DSD signal didn't have to be converted, and could be handled in native format by the DAC.  But Jason and Mike have made their decision for separate-if-any DSD-capable hardware after an extensive survey of their customer base here.  As it is, I'm looking forward to what the statement DAC will bring.


 
  Everyone has the right to be wrong.
   
  Not being snarky--WE could be wrong, just as much as Paul could be wrong. Bottom line, we're both covering our asses. They say, "We'll do DSD with no significant penalty for PCM." We say, "Our stuff is upgradable for future standards." 
   
  What this means (for us) is that if DSD becomes a significant part of the market, we can offer a new USB input card that will accept it for Bifrost and Gungnir. Your total cost, probably about $150. As of right now, we don't have any real interest in doing that, since you're looking at new firmware as well, and a great way to double the cost of, say, Bifrost, is to have unending development on the hardware and software side. Same reason you can't have a HDMI port instead of a USB port or a wireless card instead of a USB card. Not at the moment, anyway. But the capability is built in.
   
  Now, on the statement DAC, that's a different story. It's architecture doesn't support DSD, period, no way, no how. Which means you'd need another BIG module to do it right, or (more probable) an external box. If we choose to do DSD, we will have a unique take on it for the statement product.
   
  But again, until DSD proves itself as a significant force in the market, we're going to develop for the majority of what's out there. If it becomes the predominant audiophile music format, we're ready for it, thanks to the upgradable nature of our products. If it doesn't, well, I'm sure we'll have other upgrades for you to consider.


----------



## Misterrogers

Makes perfect sense to me Jason. While it's not my personal preference, I think it's the right position as this time.


----------



## judmarc

Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> Everyone has the right to be wrong.
> 
> Not being snarky--WE could be wrong, just as much as Paul could be wrong. Bottom line, we're both covering our asses. They say, "We'll do DSD with no significant penalty for PCM." We say, "Our stuff is upgradable for future standards."
> 
> ...


 
   
  Thanks, Jason, very much appreciate the clarity as always.  Not only does everyone have the right to be wrong, but we all have our biases.  Mine comes from the fact that a number of classical artists, and on the rock side the Mobile Fidelity people plus a couple of others, are issuing content I enjoy in the DSD/SACD formats.  But you're absolutely right that it's very much a niche market, and no way to know at this point whether or not it's a dead end.  Especially for a smallish company (though hopefully with ever increasing revenues  , sinking development and fabrication costs into such a path is obviously risky.
   
  Of course you've once again whetted my appetite for info about the statement DAC - very curious about its unique architecture.  Care to drop any more hints?  
   
  Also: _I'm sure we'll have other upgrades for you to consider._  Mmm, yummy - upgrades!


----------



## SoupRKnowva

jason stoddard said:


> Now, on the statement DAC, that's a different story. It's architecture doesn't support DSD, period, no way, no how. Which means you'd need another BIG module to do it right, or (more probable) an external box. If we choose to do DSD, we will have a unique take on it for the statement product.




I think this is a confirmation that the statement dac is a r2r dac, and here I am hoping that it's not an off the shelf dac chip


----------



## SoupRKnowva

Whoops


----------



## SoupRKnowva

Whoops


----------



## kr0gg

i guess actually that it's the confirmation that it's a NAD m51 type of dac


----------



## earwaxxer

I dont really get the insanity over DSD, high res. etc! I guess, if I had a ton of that stuff I would be more interested. Still, the fact remains that you cant EASILY rip an SACD. That means you have to use a player. If you're going to do that then let the player do the deal (ex. Oppo, etc) and use the analog outs. As far as the 'high res.' downloads, I have been a bid disappointed by their lack of a clear superiority to redbook.


----------



## SoupRKnowva

kr0gg said:


> i guess actually that it's the confirmation that it's a NAD m51 type of dac




That would be incorrect. The m51 style dac is basically perfect for DSD audio though. The only style that wouldn't is a monolithic ladder dac chip which can't run DSD audio without conversion to PCM first.

I'm hoping its like a cheaper SMD version of the Totaldac, that would be a game changer I think


----------



## paradoxper

Quote: 





souprknowva said:


> That would be incorrect. The m51 style dac is basically perfect for DSD audio though. The only style that wouldn't is a monolithic ladder dac chip which can't run DSD audio without conversion to PCM first.
> *I'm hoping its like a cheaper SMD version of the Totaldac, that would be a game changer I think*


 
  Oh, that would be exciting as schiit.


----------



## SoupRKnowva

Quote: 





paradoxper said:


> Oh, that would be exciting as schiit.


 





   
  i know when to plant a seed or two
   
  and they already said it wasnt off the shelf, so its not one of the current ladder dacs thats still left in production, and it isnt sigma delta or it would be able to do DSD...logically this is the only option 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 or maybe im getting ahead of myself lol


----------



## paradoxper

Quote: 





souprknowva said:


> i know when to plant a seed or two
> 
> and they already said it wasnt off the shelf, so its not one of the current ladder dacs thats still left in production, and it isnt sigma delta or it would be able to do DSD...logically this is the only option
> 
> ...


 
  Jason has said that their statement will use technology never before seen. So, while it's already exciting,
  it could get over the top. Hopefully at least.


----------



## SoupRKnowva

Quote: 





paradoxper said:


> Jason has said that their statement will use technology never before seen. So, while it's already exciting,
> it could get over the top. Hopefully at least.


 
  If it turns out to be what i think it will be...ill have to buy one to compare to the Anedio D2 lol i wont be able to pass up a ladder dac Schiit dac from Mike Mofat, thats just too much awesome in one box


----------



## judmarc

Quote: 





earwaxxer said:


> I dont really get the insanity over DSD, high res. etc! I guess, if I had a ton of that stuff I would be more interested. Still, the fact remains that you cant EASILY rip an SACD. That means you have to use a player. If you're going to do that then let the player do the deal (ex. Oppo, etc) and use the analog outs. As far as the 'high res.' downloads, I have been a bid disappointed by their lack of a clear superiority to redbook.


 

 I have an Oppo, and the ripped DSD file is very clearly better sounding.  (Think of a file ripped from a CD and played through a good DAC versus recording a disc player's analog output.)
   
  You're right about most downloads.  Except for classical labels like Channel Classics, Linn, etc., and very small niche studios like Blue Coast Records (I have their first DSD sampler as a download, mostly acoustic blues-rock stuff, and it sounds _amazing_), the vast majority of hi-res downloads from the "big guy" in this market in the USA, HDTracks, are taken from "classic" jazz and rock albums remastered by the record labels to compete in the loudness wars.  So you get a high resolution version of a recording with most of the dynamics squeezed out of it.  Great, eh?
   
  You can get a rough check on the dynamics of a recording (including some HDTracks downloads) at the DR Database, http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/ .  This can help you pick out good recordings/downloads (e.g., the Beach Boys' "Pet Sounds") from among the loudness war casualties.  As with any tool, exercise caution.  When coding the foobar2000 plugin responsible for almost all the measurements in the database, the programmer had to make some more or less arbitrary decisions about what would be relatively quick and easy to measure among the many aspects of a recording that go into perceived loudness variation.  Thus the database numbers offer no more than a rough idea of which recordings are more dynamic, let alone great sounding.


----------



## redmaw

Has the type and quantity of inputs on the statement DAC been revealed yet?


----------



## Audio_newb

Don't think any hard info on the statement has come out yet other than stay tuned for a groundbreaking non sigma delta whammie of a DAC.  Clearly we are well tuned and eagerly waiting.  Here's to hoping for 2x optical.  Unfortunately an increasing number of consumer devices only offer hdmi and optical these days.


----------



## kr0gg

i'm having a real trouble trying to convince myself NOT TO buy NAD M51...
  I want a new DAC and i'm tired of waiting
   
  waiting for this Schiit's top DAC seems like eternity


----------



## paradoxper

Been waiting 2 years for the damn statement to be made.


----------



## Maxvla

kr0gg said:


> i'm having a real trouble trying to convince myself NOT TO buy NAD M51...
> I want a new DAC and i'm tired of waiting
> 
> waiting for this Schiit's top DAC seems like eternity



It's going to be mid to late Q1 2013 at present best guess. If you need something before March, buy something else.


----------



## Hero Kid

Cool to see this thread still kickin'


----------



## kLevkoff

Quote: 





tubedriver said:


> Art Dudley found the Dragonfly as good or better than his reference DAC (Wavelength Proton).  RH in TAS gave the Dragonfly a remarkably good review.  I found the Dragon a fairly decent sounding DAC in a remarkably small box.  I just can't report hearing the quality of sound from the Dragonfly reported in many reviews, I think the Schiit Bifrost is much better sounding.  That being said, the Dragonfly is a cool idea and a step up from the soundcard in my PC and Mac computers.


 

 I've never heard the Wavelength Proton, but I have quite a few DACs, including the Bifrost.
  I agree entirely with that assessment..... FOR ITS SIZE, the Dragonfly is a very good DAC.
  Heck, it fits in your pocket, and has that cool display that changes color to show the bit rate.
  I do not, however, think that it is even close to the Bifrost in terms of sound quality.
  (Honestly, I prefer the Headstreamer as a DAC/headphone amp - and it's about half the price -
  but it's still a lot bigger... too big to fit conveniently in a shirt pocket.)
   
  The only thing that bugs me (sic) about the Dragonfly IS all the hype.
  Heck, the FiiO E10 is a step up from your laptop sound card - for $60....
  and the Headstreamer is a step up from that - for $135....
   
  There's nothing at all wrong about the Dragonfly but, aside from it's diminutive size, it's not that big a deal.....
   
  Sure, it's "a game changer" - because it'll be found perched next to Photoshop in the software aisle....
  and lots of computer type folks will see it, decide it looks cute, buy it, and NOT be disappointed....
  but not because it's an exceptional DAC...
   
   
  kLevkoff


----------



## plsvn

Quote: 





klevkoff said:


> I've never heard the Wavelength Proton, but I have quite a few DACs, including the Bifrost.
> I agree entirely with that assessment..... FOR ITS SIZE, the Dragonfly is a very good DAC.
> Heck, it fits in your pocket, and has that cool display that changes color to show the bit rate.
> I do not, however, think that it is even close to the Bifrost in terms of sound quality.


 
   
  a friend recently bought a DragonFly and, as we both where curious, we compared it with my Bifrost and... it depends on what "close" means for you. we both agreed that Fio E17 is a small step up from our Macs sound cards, the DragonFly is *miles* away from it and the Bifrost... maybe one Km (actually less) away from the DragonFly


----------



## aqsw

a dragonfly to a bifrost. wow no comparison.


----------



## tman1

Apologies if this has been asked before but I did a few searches and couldn't find anything  (and I haven't used an external DAC before so please forgive the newb question):
   
  For the Bifrost, can two sources (say, a satellite radio tuner and a CD player) be connected to the DAC at the same time so you can use either source without connecting/disconnecting input cables? And if so, is there a risk of damage if both are accidentally on at the same time?  
   
  [Never mind - I see the button on the front to switch between sources]


----------



## Mediahound

Quote: 





tman1 said:


> Apologies if this has been asked before but I did a few searches and couldn't find anything  (and I haven't used an external DAC before so please forgive the newb question):
> 
> For the Bifrost, can two sources (say, a satellite radio tuner and a CD player) be connected to the DAC at the same time so you can use either source without connecting/disconnecting input cables? And if so, is there a risk of damage if both are accidentally on at the same time?


 
   
  Yes, if they are connected via different inputs. The Bifrost has 3 inputs; coaxial digital, optical digital and optionally, USB. 
   
  You can have something plugged in to all three and use the button on the front to switch between them at any time.


----------



## korzena

I get the following issue with my Bifrost: when I STOP/PAUSE a song in my software player (Foobar2000) instead of hearing nothing at all (black background), I can hear very quiet ambient irregular noises (silmilar to noise in a radio when searching for radio channels). The noises stop after a few more seconds (sometimes after a bit longer). 
  Is it normal thing with Bifrost?
  (I use coax input, signal is coming from my PC (USB) through USB/SPDIF converter (JKSPDIF MK3) --> Bifrost)


----------



## Defiant00

korzena said:


> I get the following issue with my Bifrost: when I STOP/PAUSE a song in my software player (Foobar2000) instead of hearing nothing at all (black background), I can hear very quiet ambient irregular noises (silmilar to noise in a radio when searching for radio channels). The noises stop after a few more seconds (sometimes after a bit longer).
> Is it normal thing with Bifrost?
> (I use coax input, signal is coming from my PC (USB) through USB/SPDIF converter (JKSPDIF MK3) --> Bifrost)




The Bifrost's muting relay kicks in when there is no signal. It sounds like your USB/SPDIF converter continues sending a faint signal for at least a few seconds after it stops receiving a signal, so the Bifrost has no way of knowing if the signal it's receiving is audio data or general electrical interference.

If you have another source you can try I'd recommend trying that, since it'd probably be an easy way to verify that that's what's happening.


Oh, re-reading, to more directly answer your question, *no*, that is not normal, but it doesn't sound like it's the Bifrost doing it.


----------



## korzena

Quote: 





defiant00 said:


> The Bifrost's muting relay kicks in when there is no signal. It sounds like your USB/SPDIF converter continues sending a faint signal for at least a few seconds after it stops receiving a signal, so the Bifrost has no way of knowing if the signal it's receiving is audio data or general electrical interference.
> If you have another source you can try I'd recommend trying that, since it'd probably be an easy way to verify that that's what's happening.
> Oh, re-reading, to more directly answer your question, *no*, that is not normal, but it doesn't sound like it's the Bifrost doing it.


 
   
  Defiant00, thank you for your answer.
  I've just made a test with a borrowed laptop (with Windows XP) and it appears the noises disappeared. 
  Why does the problem exist on my main laptop (with Windows 7)?


----------



## Defiant00

korzena said:


> Defiant00, thank you for your answer.
> I've just made a test with a borrowed laptop (with Windows XP) and it appears the noises disappeared.
> Why does the problem exist on my main laptop (with Windows 7)?




If you were using the same USB adapter on the other laptop then first thing I'd try is other USB ports on your main laptop. Also try it with the laptop unplugged from the wall to see if that eliminates the problem. I doubt it's Windows version specific.


----------



## preproman

.


----------



## korzena

Quote: 





defiant00 said:


> If you were using the same USB adapter on the other laptop then first thing I'd try is other USB ports on your main laptop. Also try it with the laptop unplugged from the wall to see if that eliminates the problem. I doubt it's Windows version specific.


 
  Actually I used to use the same main laptop (win7) and the same USB/SPDIF converter with another DAC (that I've sold) and didn't have the problem. I suspect it must be a weak point in Bifrost, but I will have to make more checks before I come to the definite conclusion.


----------



## dailydoseofdaly

Does anyone know if the gungnir uses the same .5a small slow blo fuse as the bifrost? Thanks


----------



## sjones

Sorry if this has been answered in this thread, but how much better is the Gungnir over the Bifrost? Or in other words, how close is the Bifrost to the Gungnir in performance?


----------



## Maxvla

The Bifrost is excellent in the $350 ($450 w/USB) space, and the Gungnir is the best DAC I've heard in it's price space and appears to do well for others with more experience, but there is a clear difference between the two. It really is not close.


----------



## sjones

Quote: 





maxvla said:


> The Bifrost is excellent in the $350 ($450 w/USB) space, and the Gungnir is the best DAC I've heard in it's price space and appears to do well for others with more experience, but there is a clear difference between the two. It really is not close.


 
   
  Would it be crazy to get the Gungnir for the HD600 or would the Bifrost match it better?


----------



## Maxvla

Not really a case of matching. The Gungnir is simply better. The Bifrost is still excellent for the price and you can find them used for a bit less than new if you look.


----------



## paradoxper

Quote: 





maxvla said:


> Not really a case of matching. The Gungnir is simply better. The Bifrost is still excellent for the price and you can find them used for a bit less than new if you look.


 
  Yep.


----------



## mab1376

Quote: 





maxvla said:


> The Bifrost is excellent in the $350 ($450 w/USB) space, and the Gungnir is the best DAC I've heard in it's price space and appears to do well for others with more experience, but there is a clear difference between the two. It really is not close.


 
   
  Is it really worth upgrading? Is the Gungnir noticeably that much better than the Bifrost?
   
  What specifically stands out to you?


----------



## Maxvla

Everything, and I'm not just saying it to avoid getting into details.


----------



## sjones

Quote: 





maxvla said:


> Everything, and I'm not just saying it to avoid getting into details.


 
   
  You've sold me on the Gungnir. Seriously, just ordered and anticipating it arriving. 
   
  If I bought the Bifrost I would always be second guessing what I would be missing. Oh well, it's peanut butter and bread for a month.


----------



## Maxvla

Hey, PB+J is good eats, IMO.


----------



## paradoxper

Bread n Butter is even cheaper.


----------



## zfwise

I have a question about Bifrost.
  I  just got the $449version, which is the one with USB input.
   
  I'm  using Win7 and foobar with wasapi.
   
  IN WASAPI, i can only use the push mode, and I can't use the event model.
  Is that a problem?
  I mean, is it because that the USB is asynchronous and I have to use the push mode?


----------



## eddiek997

Quote: 





zfwise said:


> I have a question about Bifrost.
> I  just got the $449version, which is the one with USB input.
> 
> I'm  using Win7 and foobar with wasapi.
> ...


 

 I believe that this is because the wasapi plugin was not designed to output windows system sounds and therefore does not play the system 'events' only the 'pushed' audio (foobar tunes). I may be mistaken (usually am) but that is my understanding of the drawback of using wasapi.


----------



## sjones

Received it today, and I was rather excited as I tore open the box. This is my largest audio purchase to date. I currently have it playing as I type. I have it hooked to my MacBook Air through USB cable. The Gungnir is hooked to the NAD integrated amp through Blue Jean Cables RCA interconnects. I have my HD600 plugged in to the headphone jack of the NAD amp.
   
  The unit is just beautiful to look at. Clean, modern, and attractive in brushed aluminum. Heavier than I expected, but it has a good place to rest on my desk. 
   
  The resolution is pretty good. I am hearing things that I have never noticed before. I'm finding that all the music I'm listening to has slowed down. Where before the music would just flow through without much notice, I can now analyze each note and fine detail as it passes. I'm also hearing more background noise which is likely from the not so good recordings. 
   
  The sounds of piano and cello are more realistic. I hear the weight of the key strokes and also the twang of the strings. Further, its nice to hear the notes strike and hear it decay over time.
   
  I find that everything in the music is separated quite nicely. There are layers of music that opened up to my ears. This makes it feel like one is within the music and can pick and choose what to focus upon. Never heard anything as good as this before. I feel like I am almost there with some of the music. Quite enjoyable.
   
  Turning the volume up doesn't break up the music and make it sound harsh like it did with my previous Creative X-Fi HD Soundcard. I usually don't turn up the volume too loud, but it's nice to hear the music not lose quality as the volume increases.
   
  The sound is not quite smooth yet. It sounds slightly lean, and there may be an edge to the notes. I would say the Gungnir is very neutral to my ears. It just presents more of the music than I have heard before.
   
  For those that recommended it over the BiFrost, Maxvla and Paradoxper, thanks! It was a hard hit to the wallet, but I think it takes me closer to music nirvana, much much closer i would say. I can't put my headphones down.


----------



## Maxvla

Nice. Glad you are enjoying it. As I said before it is better in every regard, no?


----------



## sjones

Quote: 





maxvla said:


> Nice. Glad you are enjoying it. As I said before it is better in every regard, no?


 
   
  It sounds very nice. I haven't listened to the Bifrost to compare, but I am pleased I went with the Gungnir. The music just seems alive and more real then ever before.
   
  One odd thing I noticed was that several minutes ago, I heard a loud high pitch squeal (buzz) coming through the headphones while listening to a classical song. It lasted about five seconds or so. I thought it was within the song, so I rewind the song, but didn't hear it again. It was rather startling to hear at first. Any ideas?


----------



## Maxvla

It's a USB thing. Send Jason a PM to ask how best to tackle it.


----------



## paradoxper

Glad you're enjoying the Gungnir, sjones. I can definitely relate to the music being slowed down, and able to be picked apart note by note. 
   
  Give it some good burn-in and let things smoothen out. There's nothing exactly
  special about the Gungnir, feature wise, etc, however it's an extremely good DAC.
   
  Now ya just gotta upgrade to a balanced amp.


----------



## Maxvla

paradoxper said:


> Now ya just gotta upgrade to a balanced amp.



There just so happens to be one that looks kind of, sort of, pretty much like, ok well.. identical to the Gungnir 

We did warn you about your wallet when you joined, right?


----------



## korzena

Quote: 





sjones said:


> Received it today, and I was rather excited as I tore open the box. This is my largest audio purchase to date. I currently have it playing as I type. I have it hooked to my MacBook Air through USB cable. The Gungnir is hooked to the NAD integrated amp through Blue Jean Cables RCA interconnects. I have my HD600 plugged in to the headphone jack of the NAD amp.
> 
> The unit is just beautiful to look at. Clean, modern, and attractive in brushed aluminum. Heavier than I expected, but it has a good place to rest on my desk.
> 
> ...


 
  Thanks for sharing your impressions!


----------



## fr45er

Quote: 





sjones said:


> Received it today, and I was rather excited as I tore open the box. This is my largest audio purchase to date. I currently have it playing as I type. I have it hooked to my MacBook Air through USB cable. The Gungnir is hooked to the NAD integrated amp through Blue Jean Cables RCA interconnects. I have my HD600 plugged in to the headphone jack of the NAD amp.
> 
> The unit is just beautiful to look at. Clean, modern, and attractive in brushed aluminum. Heavier than I expected, but it has a good place to rest on my desk.
> 
> ...


 
  Thanks!


----------



## fr45er

Quote: 





maxvla said:


> It's a USB thing. Send Jason a PM to ask how best to tackle it.


 
  +1  I find Jason to be really helpful - quick reply also


----------



## fr45er

Quote: 





maxvla said:


> Not really a case of matching. The Gungnir is simply better. The Bifrost is still excellent for the price and you can find them used for a bit less than new if you look.


 
  Agreed,  I also went HD650 Bifrost then to Gungnir


----------



## olor1n

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *sjones* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> [...]
> 
> *One odd thing I noticed was that several minutes ago, I heard a loud high pitch squeal (buzz) coming through the headphones while listening to a classical song. It lasted about five seconds or so.* I thought it was within the song, so I rewind the song, but didn't hear it again. It was rather startling to hear at first. Any ideas?


 
   
  I thought this issue was addressed by the update to the usb board?


----------



## pukeman

Hey guys, I am thinking about getting a Bifrost with Lyr for a HE500 I want to purchase. Just wondering is it worth getting the USB connection for the Bifrost? if not how do people connect it to their computer?
   
  just wondering since I have never owned a amp or a dac, sorry for noob


----------



## eddiek997

Quote: 





pukeman said:


> Hey guys, I am thinking about getting a Bifrost with Lyr for a HE500 I want to purchase. Just wondering is it worth getting the USB connection for the Bifrost? if not how do people connect it to their computer?
> 
> just wondering since I have never owned a amp or a dac, sorry for noob


 

 I prefer the USB but others like optical. If you've got the extra $100 for the usb, do it. Also, upgrade the tubes in the Lyr to get the best out of your 500's and the amp. See this thread for more.
   
  USB on bifrost (asynchronous) eliminates jitter. Using usb also means you bypass the onboard soundcard or your computer and all the issues that come with it. However, there are people who prefer the optical digital over usb. But not me.


----------



## pukeman

Quote: 





eddiek997 said:


> I prefer the USB but others like optical. If you've got the extra $100 for the usb, do it. Also, upgrade the tubes in the Lyr to get the best out of your 500's and the amp. See this thread for more.
> 
> USB on bifrost (asynchronous) eliminates jitter. Using usb also means you bypass the onboard soundcard or your computer and all the issues that come with it. However, there are people who prefer the optical digital over usb. But not me.


 

 thanks for the reply
   
  yea I was looking at that thread earlier


----------



## eddiek997

To further answer your question - usually there are 4 means of getting the audio from your computer to the Dac.
  1. USB (my prefered) (Do not use a usb hub)
  2. Optical digital (Toslink) (2nd best option as it's not as susceptible to emi but still can have jitter issues and not all computers have optical out.)
  3. SPDIF coax digital (Prone to EMI and other noise and jitter from computer internals)
  4. Headphone out. (worst case option, you wouldnlt connect this to your dac, just direct to amp)
   
  Most people use a 3rd party media player. Foobar 2000 with wasapi output. Jriver mediacenter and mediamonkey. Itunes is usually a last resort for most people. There are other players that people like but I haven't experienced them so cannot comment on their usefulness/quality.
  
  Also, there is a Lyr for sale in the forums with a bunch of tubes HERE looks likes a decent deal.
   
  Hope this helps..


----------



## pukeman

Quote: 





eddiek997 said:


> To further answer your question - usually there are 4 means of getting the audio from your computer to the Dac.
> 1. USB (my prefered) (Do not use a usb hub)
> 2. Optical digital (Toslink) (2nd best option as it's not as susceptible to emi but still can have jitter issues and not all computers have optical out.)
> 3. SPDIF coax digital (Prone to EMI and other noise and jitter from computer internals)
> ...


 
   
  yea it does thanks again!
   
  unfortunately I live in Canada so I can't really get that 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 but yea it does look like a great deal


----------



## korzena

Quote: 





pukeman said:


> Hey guys, I am thinking about getting a Bifrost with Lyr for a HE500 I want to purchase. Just wondering is it worth getting the USB connection for the Bifrost? if not how do people connect it to their computer?
> 
> just wondering since I have never owned a amp or a dac, sorry for noob


 
  For me the best solution is to use USB/SPDIF converter like JKSPDIF MK3 or Audiophilleo and make the following connection:
  Computer USB-->USB converter-->Coax digital input in Bifrost
  This solution however will be more expensive - you will save on USB option in Bifrost, but prices of USB/SPDIF converters are still relatively high.


----------



## pukeman

Quote: 





korzena said:


> For me the best solution is to use USB/SPDIF converter like JKSPDIF MK3 or Audiophilleo and make the following connection:
> Computer USB-->USB converter-->Coax digital input in Bifrost
> This solution however will be more expensive - you will save on USB option in Bifrost, but prices of USB/SPDIF converters are still relatively high.


 

 thanks for reply, wow two conflicting answers. hmm I might end up getting the Bifrost USB unless SPDIF is worth what you pay for it


----------



## korzena

Quote: 





pukeman said:


> thanks for reply, wow two conflicting answers. hmm I might end up getting the Bifrost USB unless SPDIF is worth what you pay for it


 
  Sorry to confuse you
   
  To be honest I didn't have a chance to compare Bifrost USB connection vs Bifrost Coax input through USB/SPDIF converter as my Bifrost is without USB. 
  Anybody compared it? Is it worth paying extra for the converter?
   
  Anyway, a good thing about having a USB/SPDIF converter is that you are well set for future DAC purchases as in most DACs coax input provides the best sound quality. With the converter you never worry about using a computer  (USB) as a source to connect to DAC's coax input.
   
  If you are looking for an economical solution, probably Bifrost USB will be OK. However if you are searching for the best sound quality, I would make more research on USB/SPDIF converters.


----------



## pukeman

Quote: 





korzena said:


> Sorry to confuse you
> 
> To be honest I didn't have a chance to compare Bifrost USB connection vs Bifrost Coax input through USB/SPDIF converter as my Bifrost is without USB.
> Anybody compared it? Is it worth paying extra for the converter?
> ...


 
   
  oh no worries
   
  well I am spending soo much already so I am really not looking to buy any new headphones in the immediate future (I want to say never but who knows). I will spend some money on new tubes and maybe a cable byt yea, that's about it.
   
  Guess I will settle for the USB connection then


----------



## Joong

I am considering upgrade path from Matrix mini.
  Bifrost is the one?
   
  In terms of topology it can be down grade because Bifrost has SE whereas Matrix mini has Balanced.
  However I think well made SE is as good as Balanced.


----------



## Joong

Quote: 





pukeman said:


> oh no worries
> 
> well I am spending soo much already so I am really not looking to buy any new headphones in the immediate future (I want to say never but who knows). I will spend some money on new tubes and maybe a cable byt yea, that's about it.
> 
> Guess I will settle for the USB connection then


 
  I have been using Musiland monitor US 02 for the converter, and the result is wonderful.
  The cost of used Musiland monitor US 02 was 52 USD, that generates 192K signal.


----------



## V-Duh

maxvla said:


> It's going to be mid to late Q1 2013 at present best guess. If you need something before March, buy something else.




It's nearly March. Can anyone confirm or revise this best guess?


----------



## Maxvla

Pushed back to July to August. Parts that were planned to be used went 'end of life' meaning they wouldnt be available for the entire life of the product cycle.


----------



## V-Duh

I can see how a supplier's change like that could mess up a design. Summer it is...


----------



## traehekat

How would I connect the non-USB Bifrost to my MacBook Pro? I'm sure this is a dumb question and has been answered but I can't seem to find it. Thanks.


----------



## Defiant00

traehekat said:


> How would I connect the non-USB Bifrost to my MacBook Pro? I'm sure this is a dumb question and has been answered but I can't seem to find it. Thanks.




Your headphone jack is a multi-jack that can also output optical. You just need the correct cable (which I'm sure someone else will chime in with the name of), which would go from your headphone jack to the Bifrost's optical input.


----------



## traehekat

Quote: 





defiant00 said:


> Your headphone jack is a multi-jack that can also output optical. You just need the correct cable (which I'm sure someone else will chime in with the name of), which would go from your headphone jack to the Bifrost's optical input.


 
  Awesome, thanks. Do you know if there are any benefits to using one input over another?


----------



## olor1n

Quote: 





traehekat said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  You need a toslink to mini plug cable. The mini plug end goes straight into the MBP's hp out. I found toslink to sound better (clarity and coherence) than usb on all the macs I've owned when employing the Bifrost/Gungnir for dac duties. Some may prefer the warmth and more intimate presentation of usb though.
   
  This is not to state optical is superior to usb from an MBP. It's more reflective of Schiit's implementation. I greatly prefer usb feeding my NAD M51 over toslink from my MBP.


----------



## Jmstrmbn

I prefer optical unless using Integer Mode through an audio player such as Audirvana +.  In this case I have found USB to be superior with a more natural sound and more micro detail.


----------



## traehekat

Quote: 





olor1n said:


> You need a toslink to mini plug cable. The mini plug end goes straight into the MBP's hp out. I found toslink to sound better (clarity and coherence) than usb on all the macs I've owned when employing the Bifrost/Gungnir for dac duties. Some may prefer the warmth and more intimate presentation of usb though.
> 
> This is not to state optical is superior to usb from an MBP. It's more reflective of Schiit's implementation. I greatly prefer usb feeding my NAD M51 over toslink from my MBP.


 
  Cool, thanks. I guess what I'm getting at is whether it is worth the extra $100 for USB, heh.


----------



## Erukian

Quote: 





traehekat said:


> Cool, thanks. I guess what I'm getting at is whether it is worth the extra $100 for USB, heh.


 
  If your computer has a decently designed optical out (ie. macs), you can rest assured and save that money.


----------



## traehekat

Quote: 





erukian said:


> If your computer has a decently designed optical out (ie. macs), you can rest assured and save that money.


 
  So I would need something like this? 
   
http://www.amazon.com/Toslink-Optical-Adapter-Cable-Macbook/dp/B0025W1FR8


----------



## paradoxper

Quote: 





traehekat said:


> So I would need something like this?
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Toslink-Optical-Adapter-Cable-Macbook/dp/B0025W1FR8


 
  Yup.


----------



## eddiek997

Quote: 





erukian said:


> If your computer has a decently designed optical out (ie. macs), you can rest assured and save that money.


 
  Quite the statement.
   
  The design (ie that the optical out is shared with a 1/8 headphone jack) is certainly clever but the onboard sound chip is as cheap as possible. The Optical section only starts at the out jack and the rest of the signal (all internal signal path) is subject to all the horrors of a crammed design inside a lovely case.
   
  On a Mac, if you're looking for the best possible output, USB is for sure the best option and well worth the $100 extra.


----------



## paradoxper

Quote: 





eddiek997 said:


> Quite the statement.
> 
> The design (ie that the optical out is shared with a 1/8 headphone jack) is certainly clever but the onboard sound chip is as cheap as possible. The Optical section only starts at the out jack and the rest of the signal (all internal signal path) is subject to all the horrors of a crammed design inside a lovely case.
> 
> On a Mac, if you're looking for the best possible output, USB is for sure the best option and well worth the $100 extra.


 
  I think it clearly needs to be stated that it comes down to the implementation of the DAC.
   
  Per Schiit, USB never sounded comparable to optical.


----------



## eddiek997

I agree that optical out of a purpose built CD player (with emi considerations built in) will likely sound better than the computer version via usb. However, I still think that USB from a Mac is the way to go.


----------



## Erukian

Quote: 





paradoxper said:


> I think it clearly needs to be stated that it comes down to the implementation of the DAC.
> 
> Per Schiit, USB never sounded comparable to optical.


 
  +1
   
  Same thing I was told when I spoke with Jason.


----------



## traehekat

So it seems the consensus is that if you are going to be using the Bifrost with a MacBook Pro you should spring for the USB version.


----------



## paradoxper

Quote: 





traehekat said:


> So it seems the consensus is that if you are going to be using the Bifrost with a MacBook Pro you should spring for the USB version.


 
  No.


----------



## traehekat

Quote: 





paradoxper said:


> No.


 
  Ha, well someone tell me what to do then!


----------



## paradoxper

Quote: 





traehekat said:


> Ha, well someone tell me what to do then!


 
  Just use coax and forget all about USB or optical. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  OR
   
  Just spend the extra $ and test 'em out for yourself. This way in the future you'll know what input you prefer.


----------



## Misterrogers

That's the truth of it traehekat; as definitive as some like to be on the subject, some prefer USB in their chain, others optical/Coax. The actual performance of either in your chain is subject to an assortment of variables so anyone's definitive statement can only apply to their chain, and their ears. Try what you can. Decide what you like.


----------



## judmarc

misterrogers said:


> That's the truth of it traehekat; as definitive as some like to be on the subject, some prefer USB in their chain, others optical/Coax. The actual performance of either in your chain is subject to an assortment of variables so anyone's definitive statement can only apply to their chain, and their ears. Try what you can. Decide what you like.




Best and truest concise statement I've read on this topic.


----------



## HydronQc

Its just me or the Bifrost is not compatible with wasapi event style in Jriver?


----------



## vaed

Quote: 





hydronqc said:


> Its just me or the Bifrost is not compatible with wasapi event style in Jriver?


 
  You have to go into the options and check the box "present as 32 bit". Had the same problem.


----------



## HydronQc

Quote: 





vaed said:


> You have to go into the options and check the box "present as 32 bit". Had the same problem.


 
  still not working


----------



## judmarc

Wanted to mention that I received and installed the new USB board version in my Bifrost yesterday.  Whether it was getting USB back after listening through the optical input for a little while (music through the optical is very nice, but I've consistently preferred USB with my rig) or a real difference, I don't know, but it sounds substantially improved from what I recall with the original board.


----------



## pukeman

Hey guys,
   
  I ordered the Bifrost+Lyr (usb Bifrost) wondering whether they come with all the required cables or if I have to get them seperate


----------



## paradoxper

Quote: 





pukeman said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> I ordered the Bifrost+Lyr (usb Bifrost) wondering whether they come with all the required cables or if I have to get them seperate


 
  Only comes with power chord. You'll have to order RCA's and USB cable.


----------



## korzena

Quote: 





paradoxper said:


> Only comes with power chord. You'll have to order RCA's and USB cable.


 
  You can order super-short RCA (for Schiit DAC-AMP connection) directly from Schiit.


----------



## shaunybaby

Yeah i would argree on them being short but i like them, they are the perfect length if your stacking your schiit.
   
linky link


----------



## paradoxper

Quote: 





korzena said:


> You can order super-short RCA (for Schiit DAC-AMP connection) directly from Schiit.


 
  Yes. but that's not included which was OP's question.


----------



## Joong

Quote: 





judmarc said:


> Wanted to mention that I received and installed the *new USB board version in my Bifrost *yesterday.  Whether it was getting USB back after listening through the optical input for a little while (music through the optical is very nice, but I've consistently preferred USB with my rig) or a real difference, I don't know, but it sounds substantially improved from what I recall with the original board.


 
  I recently ordered a Bifrost from Headphone Bar in Canada, and it still is comming.
  This unit is expected to have the latest version of USB card.
  How do I know the machine is latest or not?
  Is it possible by inspection of serial number?


----------



## pukeman

Quote: 





shaunybaby said:


> Yeah i would argree on them being short but i like them, they are the perfect length if your stacking your schiit.
> 
> linky link


 

 thanks for the replies guys,
   
  yea that looks nice and short but I live in Canada and it says $30+ for shipping for a $20 cable...


----------



## paradoxper

Just send Jason a message and ask him to throw the RCA's in with your Bifrost.


----------



## Mediahound

Quote: 





pukeman said:


> thanks for the replies guys,
> 
> yea that looks nice and short but I live in Canada and it says $30+ for shipping for a $20 cable...


 
   
  I've got mine for sale if you are interested, PM me. I ship to Canada for less than $30. 
   
  I bought them but decided not to stack my Lyr and Bifrost so don't need 'em.


----------



## gerald410

Got my Bifrost today, rocking out to some Stanley Clarke. Will be ordering the the Lyr in 2 weeks. Should be awesome.


----------



## korzena

Quote: 





paradoxper said:


> Yes. but that's not included which was OP's question.


 
  Please notice that I was responding to someone's answer ("You'll have to order RCA's and USB cable.") to OP's question.


----------



## pukeman

thanks for the suggestions guys, anyway I ended up picking up some cheap cables at wal-mart
   
  so these cables are like HDMI cables right? ie: the quality doesn't matter?


----------



## eddiek997

Quote: 





pukeman said:


> thanks for the suggestions guys, anyway I ended up picking up some cheap cables at wal-mart
> 
> so these cables are like HDMI cables right? ie: the quality doesn't matter?


 

 If you have a system thats capable enough you'll for sure hear the difference between cables.


----------



## paradoxper

Quote: 





eddiek997 said:


> If you have a system thats capable enough you'll for sure hear the difference between cables.


 
  Not true.
   
  There are plenty, of plenty here who have top Stax rigs with monoprice cables, for example.
   
  Ultimately it comes down to if you think you can hear the differences between cables.


----------



## eddiek997

Quote: 





paradoxper said:


> Not true.
> 
> There are plenty, of plenty here who have top Stax rigs with monoprice cables, for example.
> 
> Ultimately it comes down to if you think you can hear the differences between cables.


 

 Perhaps.
  I know that I'm one of those who notices. Really notices. I was a skeptic at first. Then I tried it. Made detailed notes, swapped out cables and could hear a difference without a doubt. I've had cables that made the sound so muddy and dull that I instantly removed them, others would remove bass, yet others would induce brightness etc etc.
  As usual, there are doubters and skeptics (there's a whole thread dedicated to tube rolling being snake oil for example). To each their own, we are after all fallible humans.


----------



## paradoxper

Quote: 





eddiek997 said:


> Perhaps.
> I know that I'm one of those who notices. Really notices. I was a skeptic at first. Then I tried it. Made detailed notes, swapped out cables and could hear a difference without a doubt. I've had cables that made the sound so muddy and dull that I instantly removed them, others would remove bass, yet others would induce brightness etc etc.
> As usual, there are doubters and skeptics (there's a whole thread dedicated to tube rolling being snake oil for example). To each their own, we are after all fallible humans.


 
  I know that I was previously a sonic cable skeptic, I always bought them for aesthetics/ergonomics.
   
  But recently I got a DHC RS silver Complement loaner and I've been quite blown away.
  Enough so that I'll be ordering one.
   
  It's the first time where the cable difference isn't marginal, but other than that
  I haven't found cables to differ much if at all. Ranging from different types of copper, vendors, etc.
   
  I think the reasonable option for puke would be to buy a cheap cable first to get his rig together,
  then later on if he decides he'd like to explore into cables, he can spend a bit more and experiment.


----------



## eddiek997

Quote: 





paradoxper said:


> I know that I was previously a sonic cable skeptic, I always bought them for aesthetics/ergonomics.
> 
> But recently I got a DHC RS silver Complement loaner and I've been quite blown away.
> Enough so that I'll be ordering one.
> ...


 

 Totally agree.... this hobby gets expensive, fast. Most important to sit back and just listen and not to constantly judge and wish for more. (Edit - removed)


----------



## Misterrogers

Blessed are those who can't, and blessed are those who can!


----------



## eddiek997

Quote: 





misterrogers said:


> Blessed are those who can't, and blessed are those who can!


 

  
  Blessed are the meek.
   
  (Life of Brian)


----------



## pukeman

thank again guys
  Quote: 





paradoxper said:


> I know that I was previously a sonic cable skeptic, I always bought them for aesthetics/ergonomics.
> 
> But recently I got a DHC RS silver Complement loaner and I've been quite blown away.
> Enough so that I'll be ordering one.
> ...


 
   
  yea I agree. that's the same reason why I am sticking with stock tubes for the Lyr for now and getting better tubes later
   
  and yes this is an expensive hobby, more than 1k on dac/amp and 750 for HE500. Hopefully the amp/dac will last a while


----------



## Joong

Hi guys,
  I have got a brand new Bifrost DAC with USB, and it has got a problem "Schiit USB interface error".
  Device status: Device cannot start (code 10).
   
  Schiit USB Interface Properties read as below:
   
  - Schiit USB inerface: sound.... ( not functioning mark as *!* inside triangle)
  - HID-compliant consummer control device: Human...  ...(OK)
  - Schiit USB inerface: sound.... (OK)
  - USB composite Device: Universal Serial  (OK)
  - USB input device: Human... (OK)
   
  What is it?


----------



## gerald410

Looks like it maybe a drive issue, I would refer to the manual for further support.


----------



## Joong

Working now...wonderful...
  It looks like Matrix mini...+ Musiland US02 quality, or more.
  Thanks.


----------



## Joong

Jason is responsive and prompt to provide the necessary answer and assistance.
  He seems sometime though, but inside he willingly support his customer.
   
  The quality of the Bifrost is greater than the combined force of Matrix mini and Musiland US 02 without hassles.
  The sound is more spacious and more extended into both extremes of frequency bands.
   
  Bifrost is connected to Emotiva mini-x and then He-5LE.
  It is really good enough and well purchased.
   
  I also expect Lyr soon from a Headfier with whom I delt the deal very pleasantly.
  The same concerns about the headphone oriented hobby makes this level of friendliness, which is amazing.
   
  Regards


----------



## catspaw

Hey guys, 
  I wanted to ask something that has been touched a bit in other thread but not really explained well enought.
   
  I use my Pc mainly for games, and i own currently:
  Fiio E17 as DAC (Dac and amp in portable setup), Asgard 1 as amp, HE-400 as Hp, and X-fi Titanium (the non HD version)in my pc.
   
  It has an optical out line, and i use that to send the signal   to the Fiio E17.
   
  I am Wondering if it would be worth it to get a Bifrost as well in that setup, or if the diference will be small.
  Please note that the Price is for me quite high, not to mention i wanted to get either the Sennheiser HD600 as a complement for the HE-400 or the HE-500 in the later future.
   
  As an example, for me the switch from The fiio E17 to the asgard as amp was well worth the money.


----------



## Llloyd

Usually differences in your DAC will be more subtle but you can appreciate it.  You will likely hear a difference.  The asgard is a reasonable amplifier but at that point it will become the weakest part of your chain, I'm not certain it can fully capture the resolution of the bifrost, they pair well enough together but what you should ask yourself is how content are you with the current resolution of your music.  A didn't find the bifrost to be extremely dynamic but it has acceptable detail for the price.  IMHO it's not really something you can ask us and a judgement call.  They have a nice return policy so you can always try and if you don't like just return it.
  Quote: 





catspaw said:


> Hey guys,
> I wanted to ask something that has been touched a bit in other thread but not really explained well enought.
> 
> I use my Pc mainly for games, and i own currently:
> ...


----------



## Audiolic

just received my gungnir and i have the same problem 
  This device cannot start!!!! anybody can help??
   
  also on spdif coaxial from focusrite scarlett (tested with internal lock and external lock from spdif)
   
  i have sound ok and after 10sec the sound start to hickup a the same time of the click
   
  it goes
  click..
  click, click...
  click click click
  click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click 
  click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click 
   
  click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click 
   
  until it sound like it gonna burst in flame with 1000 click a nanosecond
   
  What anybody can help (havent tried optical yet I will tomorrow on another card (scarlett doesnt have optical out)


----------



## Audiolic

Now it's totally dead, no sound.. some click here and there.. a digital to nothing converter.. 
   
  hope it will be replace fast... Ill be sure to let you know how good the support/service is.


----------



## Jason Stoddard

Quote: 





audiolic said:


> Now it's totally dead, no sound.. some click here and there.. a digital to nothing converter..
> 
> hope it will be replace fast... Ill be sure to let you know how good the support/service is.


 
  Actually, you already have an email from us early this morning, about 1AM PST, offering assistance with the drivers and such. You also have a second email, as of now, offering either a return/exchange or full refund, including shipping both ways--your choice.
   
  If you haven't received the emails, check the spam folder--I only mention this because we did not get a response to our first email.


----------



## Maxvla

audiolic said:


> Now it's totally dead, no sound.. some click here and there.. a digital to nothing converter..
> 
> hope it will be replace fast... Ill be sure to let you know how good the support/service is.



We already know the support/service is stellar, thanks. Take a chill pill and calm yourself. Probably a defective unit, not the end of the world.

By the way, notice you posted on Friday night and now on Saturday, what other small electronics companies would be providing support on a weekend? Jason goes above and beyond.


----------



## paradoxper

Quote: 





maxvla said:


> We already know the support/service is stellar, thanks. Take a chill pill and calm yourself. Probably a defective unit, not the end of the world.


 
  I'm just chillin' DAC-less, bro. It is HELL. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
   
  But I agree, stellar service.


----------



## Maxvla

That's why you should get yourself a Magni-Modi stack so you can buy and sell the big stuff without sweating not having a functioning rig.


----------



## paradoxper

Quote: 





maxvla said:


> That's why you should get yourself a Magni-Modi stack so you can buy and sell the big stuff without sweating not having a functioning rig.


 
  Na, HD800's are out anyways. Probably come  back right on time with a new DAC.
   
  I much rather listen out of my MBP than those lil Schiit's.


----------



## Audiolic

Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> Actually, you already have an email from us early this morning, about 1AM PST, offering assistance with the drivers and such. You also have a second email, as of now, offering either a return/exchange or full refund, including shipping both ways--your choice.
> 
> If you haven't received the emails, check the spam folder--I only mention this because we did not get a response to our first email.


 
   

  thx for your quick service i think I have problem with my hotmail not receiving mail. I sent you another mail adress of mine in PM. I will take the exchange with shipping covered both ways.. best would be send me a new one fast this week, let me know how you want to handle the return of the unit? peace Alex. can't wait to listen my tracks with your awesome dac


----------



## wolfetan44

Anyone have experience with sending your Bifrost to Schiit to get a upgrade on the board?


----------



## mab1376

what upgrade? the USB add-on?
   
  because i'm pretty sure that's a user installed add-on.


----------



## paradoxper

Quote: 





mab1376 said:


> what upgrade? the USB add-on?
> 
> because i'm pretty sure that's a user installed add-on.


 
  There's the USB upgrade option, but then there's also the limited amount of USB's that screeched.
  And those were sent for the fix, I believe.


----------



## wolfetan44

mab1376 said:


> what upgrade? the USB add-on?
> 
> because i'm pretty sure that's a user installed add-on.


No, DAC tech goes quick. So you can send your Schiit in to get a newer board.


----------



## wolfetan44

mab1376 said:


> what upgrade? the USB add-on?
> 
> because i'm pretty sure that's a user installed add-on.


Darn..


----------



## judmarc

wolfetan44 said:


> No, DAC tech goes quick. So you can send your Schiit in to get a newer board.




I'm thinking either is available, but I'm not certain of that.


----------



## RBen

LOL..


----------



## zzffnn

rben said:


> LOL..




Welcome to Headfi. Your 1st ever post "LOL" seemed out of context though.


----------



## Argo Duck

^ on the contrary. It was the understandable and age-appropriate reaction of an adolescent boy attracted here by the name of the thread!


----------



## Defiant00

Looks like Schiit's getting ready to start selling both the updated USB board and an upgrade to the Bifrost's gain stage.
   
  USB: http://schiit.com/cart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=0&products_id=18
  Analog Upgrade: http://schiit.com/cart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=0&products_id=19


----------



## Hifi-Obsession

Defiant - if the pages were available earlier today, they aren't now.  I'm pretty interested in getting the  analog upgrade so I hope they offer this soon.


----------



## Defiant00

Ah, looks like they've gone and hidden them.
   
  Analog upgrade was $100 (or $70 if you wanted to install it yourself).


----------



## M-13

So what are these updates? What's changed now?


----------



## redmagic

Is the Bifrost pretty much the best DAC under $500? My friend wants to buy one though I just want to make sure he is doing the right thing.


----------



## Misterrogers

Honestly, it's a serious contender for that title. It's very well performing, and is one of the very very few that provides an upgrade path. I've had both Bifrost and its big brother (Gungnir), and the Gungnir IV is a noticeable upgrade to the Bifrost IV. The addition of 176.x support plus isolation seals it. If my DAC's didn't need to play DSD, I'd still still have my Schiits.


----------



## M-13

Bifrost 4 you say? Didn't know about all different versions. Can you tell us more? What's different about the latest revision? I had one of the very first Bifrost that rolled off the production belt.


----------



## Misterrogers

Heh - not 'IV' as in '4', but IV as in current/voltage conversion; the analog portion of a DAC circuit. It has very much to do with the sonic signature of a DAC>


----------



## M-13

Oh... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Thanks.


----------



## kessomatt

Can anyone help me out with the optical in on bifrost? I am using a Realtek output from my laptop and set it to spdif. The red light is showing on the end of the cord but when I plug it in no sound comes from the laptop(going to lyr). I set it as default, played with just about every option but no go.


----------



## justie

Quote: 





misterrogers said:


> Honestly, it's a serious contender for that title. It's very well performing, and is one of the very very few that provides an upgrade path. I've had both Bifrost and its big brother (Gungnir), and the Gungnir IV is a noticeable upgrade to the Bifrost IV. The addition of 176.x support plus isolation seals it. If my DAC's didn't need to play DSD, I'd still still have my Schiits.


 
  I didnt know that the gungnir received an upgrade option :O When was it announced and is it a significant upgrade?


----------



## Defiant00

Quote: 





justie said:


> I didnt know that the gungnir received an upgrade option :O When was it announced and is it a significant upgrade?


 
   
  It's an updated USB module that supports 176.4 and apparently fixes the occasional problems people have been having with Macs through USB. I believe DACs for at least the past few weeks have been shipping with it instead of the old USB card.
   
  The page that I found (that has since been taken down) indicated that it'll be $150 (or $100 if you want to install it yourself) and presumably this also means they're about ready to officially announce it and let people order it separately.


----------



## justie

Hmm, guess ill wait abit and see wat people's experience with it is before considering a purchase. Then again, I dont use my usb input as much as toslink so i might not need it anyway :/


----------



## jdubsss

Just got my Bifrost today and have a few questions for you guys
   
  1) I get no sound when trying to set windows to either 16/192 or 24/192 using a Toslink SPDIF cable.  Everything up to 24/96 works fine.  Is my cable the problem (cheap amazon one to get me started) or am is there something else I'm missing?
  2) My Bifrost clicks.  A lot.  It clicks changing folders in windows and every time I play a different song.  Is this normal behavior and something I'll just have to get used to?  I know that it clicks, but this seems excessive.  The songs are all the same sample rate btw.
   
  Thanks


----------



## Jmstrmbn

I'm not 100% sure for PCs but I know Macs are hardware limited for optical out at 24/96.  If you are just going off your motherboard this is likely the case here too.


----------



## jdubsss

Quote: 





jmstrmbn said:


> I'm not 100% sure for PCs but I know Macs are hardware limited for optical out at 24/96.  If you are just going off your motherboard this is likely the case here too.


 
   
  I checked that and my onboard is a realtek alc892 which supports 24bit/192khz


----------



## Jmstrmbn

The motherboard supports 24/192 but does the optical out?
   
  Just google the MOBO and it states that the optical can handle up to 24/192, perhaps your clicking issue and optical issue are related?  Have you contacted someone at Schiit?


----------



## jdubsss

The mobo says 24/192, but not specifically for the optical.  However, the realtek onboard that my mobo apparently has does specify 24/192 for the optical out.  
   
  I'm gonna mess around with it a bit before I contact schiit.  Going to try different drivers now. 
   
   
  Edit:  Same result.  24/192 doesn't playback at all.  I can live with 24/96 because I probably couldn't hear the difference anyway, but this clicking might drive me out of my mind.


----------



## elwappo99

Thought I might this here in addition to the Gungnir thread:
   
   



elwappo99 said:


> Any comparison of the Gungnir DAC to any of the higher end Audio-GD units? I'm thinking about getting a Mjolnir and I wonder if it wouldn't be too much of a compromise to get the Gungnir unit too, in order to have that nice looking stack!


----------



## Argo Duck

Why don't you use 'search this thread' on the clicking. You're not the first to experience it. I think there are answers in these pages somewhere.


----------



## Argo Duck

elwappo99 I don't recall any comparisons on head-fi but...why not try google?


----------



## redmagic

Quote: 





redmagic said:


> Is the Bifrost pretty much the best DAC under $500? My friend wants to buy one though I just want to make sure he is doing the right thing.


 

 Any other opinions on this?


----------



## mwindham08

Risking the wrath of audiophiles everywhere, I was using the Asus Essence one and I really liked it.
   
  You really get to tweak the sound with all the different op amp combinations.
   
  Later on down the road I got the Muses 1 op amps and they made a tremendous difference 
  in sound quality with the lcd 2's.


----------



## Argo Duck

^ Mike (Misterrogers) is right. It's a serious contender. But the best? I personally don't think so. There are many contenders - DAC-land is pretty full and getting fuller.

But Bifrost is right up there. It's very, very good VFM.

Look up my review-thread (late 2011) in which I compared Bifrost with Meier Stagedac and Eastern Electric MiniMax (shouldn't be hard to find) for a look at how it went against two higher-priced DACs, FWIW.


----------



## jdubsss

Quote: 





argo duck said:


> Why don't you use 'search this thread' on the clicking. You're not the first to experience it. I think there are answers in these pages somewhere.


 
   
  I did, thanks.  There wasn't a solution that I found only an acknowledgement of it existing.  I just wanted to confirm that clicking every single time a song starts/stops is "normal".


----------



## paradoxper

Quote: 





jdubsss said:


> I did, thanks.  There wasn't a solution that I found only an acknowledgement of it existing.  I just wanted to confirm that clicking every single time a song starts/stops is "normal".


 
  You need to make sure the clicking is all the time and not when just switching sample rates.
   
  As for the clicking every time you start/stop a song, I'd say no, that's potentially a bad board.


----------



## jdubsss

Quote: 





paradoxper said:


> You need to make sure the clicking is all the time and not when just switching sample rates.
> 
> As for the clicking every time you start/stop a song, I'd say no, that's potentially a bad board.


 
   
  It's all the time.  All of my music is 16/44 right now.  I hear a click every time I pause/unpause a song, switch songs, skip ahead in a song, and every time windows plays a sound.  I've disabled windows sounds for now, but it's still pretty obnoxious.  
   
  When songs play straight through and fade there is no clicking.


----------



## Argo Duck

paradoxper could be right. Certainly not normal. Sounds like one for Jason @ Schiit


----------



## paradoxper

Quote: 





jdubsss said:


> It's all the time.  All of my music is 16/44 right now.  I hear a click every time I pause/unpause a song, switch songs, skip ahead in a song, and every time windows plays a sound.  I've disabled windows sounds for now, but it's still pretty obnoxious.
> 
> When songs play straight through and fade there is no clicking.


 
  I remember my Bifrost would click 'fairly' constantly. Like, when pausing a song to watch a Youtube vid, click, click.
  However this was its normal operation.
   
  If you're experiencing "normal clicking" within play/pause, it might be annoying but normal. The clicking when switching songs
  though does sound suspect. Definitely contact Jason and see what's up.


----------



## jdubsss

Quote: 





paradoxper said:


> I remember my Bifrost would click 'fairly' constantly. Like, when pausing a song to watch a Youtube vid, click, click.
> However this was its normal operation.
> 
> If you're experiencing "normal clicking" within play/pause, it might be annoying but normal. The clicking when switching songs
> though does sound suspect. Definitely contact Jason and see what's up.


 
   
  Just sent him an e-mail.  Thanks.


----------



## cssarrow

Are there any electrolytic capacitors in the line signal on the Gungnir or Mjolnir?
   
  Planning to change them to Elna Silmic II's and change out the XLR Ports with Cardas Rhodium/Gold.
  The red organic capacitor Nichicon FP is good, so there's no point in changing out those.
   
*Tim*


----------



## Defiant00

Quote: 





jdubsss said:


> Just got my Bifrost today and have a few questions for you guys
> 
> 1) I get no sound when trying to set windows to either 16/192 or 24/192 using a Toslink SPDIF cable.  Everything up to 24/96 works fine.  Is my cable the problem (cheap amazon one to get me started) or am is there something else I'm missing?
> 2) My Bifrost clicks.  A lot.  It clicks changing folders in windows and every time I play a different song.  Is this normal behavior and something I'll just have to get used to?  I know that it clicks, but this seems excessive.  The songs are all the same sample rate btw.
> ...


 
   
  My understanding (and experience) seems contrary to others here on question 2. As far as I'm aware Bifrost will click once when audio stops and once more when it starts (when using optical). This means you'll get two clicks whenever a Windows sound plays, two clicks between tracks (at least with foobar2000 that was my experience regardless of sample rate), etc.
   
  I believe with foobar2000 at least when a track ends there is a small gap before it starts sending the next track's data, so I always got two clicks in rapid succession.
   
  Obviously, if you have music playing you shouldn't get any clicks in the middle of a song (and that'd likely indicate an actual problem), but everything you've described sounds normal.


----------



## jdubsss

Quote: 





defiant00 said:


> My understanding (and experience) seems contrary to others here on question 2. As far as I'm aware Bifrost will click once when audio stops and once more when it starts (when using optical). This means you'll get two clicks whenever a Windows sound plays, two clicks between tracks (at least with foobar2000 that was my experience regardless of sample rate), etc.
> 
> I believe with foobar2000 at least when a track ends there is a small gap before it starts sending the next track's data, so I always got two clicks in rapid succession.
> 
> Obviously, if you have music playing you shouldn't get any clicks in the middle of a song (and that'd likely indicate an actual problem), but everything you've described sounds normal.


 
   
  That's the answer I got from Jason as well.  Apparently it's completely normal with a toslink/coax connection.  Mechanical clicks are something new to me from my DAC so I'll see if I get used to it over the next few days and go from there.
   
  I like how responsive schiit is as a company so I'd like to continue to give them my business.  If it's driving me out of my mind I'll talk to them about the USB version which apparently only clicks when the sample rates change because the data stream is never interrupted.


----------



## elwappo99

elwappo99 said:


> Any comparison of the Gungnir DAC to any of the higher end Audio-GD units? I'm thinking about getting a Mjolnir and I wonder if it wouldn't be too much of a compromise to get the Gungnir unit too, in order to have that nice looking stack!


 




    
  Quote:


argo duck said:


> elwappo99 I don't recall any comparisons on head-fi but...why not try google?


 
   
   
  Unfortunately, nothing on head-fi or on the internet at large has been posted.


----------



## Defiant00

Quote: 





jdubsss said:


> That's the answer I got from Jason as well.  Apparently it's completely normal with a toslink/coax connection.  Mechanical clicks are something new to me from my DAC so I'll see if I get used to it over the next few days and go from there.
> 
> I like how responsive schiit is as a company so I'd like to continue to give them my business.  If it's driving me out of my mind I'll talk to them about the USB version which apparently only clicks when the sample rates change because the data stream is never interrupted.


 
   
  Apparently the DAC chip itself can do the muting (and therefore wouldn't click) but they actually found that a separate muting relay (which is what you hear clicking) worked better. Now, I don't know what "better" is in this context (faster, doesn't affect sound quality, or something else?) but I do recall Jason saying that it was somehow better.
   
  I actually used mine through USB the majority of the time, and the only times it ever clicked was once when I turned it on or off. I was using normal Windows sound output though (at a fixed sample rate); perhaps with changing sample rates it would click occasionally.


----------



## fabythom2713

Hi,
I have now used my Gungnir for about 1 week and it sounds awesome everytime i play music, i have an applt tv connected using the fiber optic and the cd player using the coaxial. One thing I noticed that even though music from spotify on higher quality (320 kpbs) is not the same as my music from HDD ripped from cd at 320. The one from cd's sound fuller and with much better detail. Music from cd player is completly different than all others and much better than the rest!! 
I hope it helps. 
Excuse my english, not an expert on writing posts. 
Just enjoy music to the fullest. 
Happy listening.


----------



## M-13

Quote: 





fabythom2713 said:


> Hi,
> I have now used my Gungnir for about 1 week and it sounds awesome everytime i play music, i have an applt tv connected using the fiber optic and the cd player using the coaxial. One thing I noticed that even though music from spotify on higher quality (320 kpbs) is not the same as my music from HDD ripped from cd at 320. The one from cd's sound fuller and with much better detail. Music from cd player is completly different than all others and much better than the rest!!
> I hope it helps.
> Excuse my english, not an expert on writing posts.
> ...


 
  Yup! Welcome to Head-Fi. Quality In = Quality Out


----------



## fabythom2713

Thank you!! 
  Namaste


----------



## LokiS

Quote: 





jdubsss said:


> It's all the time.  All of my music is 16/44 right now.  I hear a click every time I pause/unpause a song, switch songs, skip ahead in a song, and every time windows plays a sound.  I've disabled windows sounds for now, but it's still pretty obnoxious.
> 
> When songs play straight through and fade there is no clicking.


 

 Hello, apology for my dumb question. As someone who is interested in some new Schiit gear, I assume when you says `clicks` you mean from within the unit itself?, or in the the actual audio in the headphones?. Noticed the post date, don't suppose anyone could answer?
   
  Recently bought a Asus Essence one, trying to return it to buy something else. I was getting pop/clicks in the audio when switching songs, pause/stop or when audio was cutoff when in games, so this was a worrying question about the Bifrost. Thanks in advance.


----------



## xpersona

Quote: 





lokis said:


> Hello, apology for my dumb question. As someone who is interested in some new Schiit gear, I assume when you says `clicks` you mean from within the unit itself?, or in the the actual audio in the headphones?. Noticed the post date, don't suppose anyone could answer?
> 
> Recently bought a Asus Essence one, trying to return it to buy something else. I was getting pop/clicks in the audio when switching songs, pause/stop or when audio was cutoff when in games, so this was a worrying question about the Bifrost. Thanks in advance.


 
  Have you tried to play with bit/khz in driver settings? Finding 'native' combination may help solve the audio pop/click problem.


----------



## Defiant00

Quote: 





lokis said:


> Hello, apology for my dumb question. As someone who is interested in some new Schiit gear, I assume when you says `clicks` you mean from within the unit itself?, or in the the actual audio in the headphones?. Noticed the post date, don't suppose anyone could answer?
> 
> Recently bought a Asus Essence one, trying to return it to buy something else. I was getting pop/clicks in the audio when switching songs, pause/stop or when audio was cutoff when in games, so this was a worrying question about the Bifrost. Thanks in advance.


 
   
  Correct, the device has a muting relay that clicks, it is not through the headphones.


----------



## Squeezemenicely

any thoughts on the
   
  UBER ANALOG UPGRADE for the Bifrost?
   
   
  does it really make a difference? Is it worth it? I am tempted.
   
   
  EDIT: Just saw i another thread that this option is completely new - so obviously there cannot be any real opinions yet. I had seen the upgrade just by surfing the Schiit website, to see if there is anything new.
   
  Still I do wonder if the difference will be worth it - shipping to europe is not that cheap...


----------



## HPiper

Until some people have the new Bifrost the only thing I can say is that with the upgrades, the price has moved up to the point it is considerably more costly than its competition (DacMagic ect.) Now the performance might justify that, only time will tell, but it is going to make buying one a harder question to answer in terms of value per dollar.


----------



## justie

Quote: 





hpiper said:


> Until some people have the new Bifrost the only thing I can say is that with the upgrades, the price has moved up to the point it is considerably more costly than its competition (DacMagic ect.) Now the performance might justify that, only time will tell, but it is going to make buying one a harder question to answer in terms of value per dollar.


 
  Hmm, this makes me wonder about the future potential upgrades too. As in, will future upgrades require a continuous price increase on the current price or will the future bifrosts just come stock with upgraded hardware at no extra cost?


----------



## Jason Stoddard

Hey all,
   
  To clear a few things up:
   
  1. Bifrost hasn't gone up in price. The same Bifrost gain stage is available in the standard Bifrost. Still starts at $349. Still offers great performance for the price. Still allows you to add USB only if you need it, and save money if you don't.
   
  2. However, we have added another level to Bifrost--Bifrost Uber. This has a much more sophisticated analog stage, with a ton more parts and higher-quality parts, taken from Gungnir. The additional cost means, well, additional cost. That's why it's more expensive. But it's only an option, not something we're forcing you to get.
   
  3. That said, we think the sonic difference is significant, or we wouldn't offer it. We've spent the last 18 months since the introduction of Bifrost looking for a DAC/Analog upgrade that made sense. And this is the result.
   
  4. The new USB Gen 2 is standard on all USB-equipped Bifrosts and Gungnirs. No price change there.
   
  5. And, as far as whether the "price will keep going up," well, that depends on the upgrades, but I don't suspect that we'll be releasing anything for Bifrost that will significantly change the price.
   
  Also, you need to ask yourself: what makes more sense: to buy a $370-600 DAC that you throw away when times change, or buy a $350-520 DAC that has optional $100-150 upgrades to make it future-proof? Remember, Bifrost is the only fully upgradable DAC in its price class.
   
  All the best,
  Jason


----------



## internethandle

Oh man oh man oh man. Did not expect upgrades this soon, I'll admit, but I'm still plenty pleased that I'll have the option to get some more bandwith out of my Bifrost. $70 to $100 to upgrade a whole DAC board and discrete output really is a steal, in particular - I may wait a bit on the USB board till I feel ready, but I'm pretty positive that would also uptick the sound (I currently use USB on my Bifrost).
   
   
  I posted this in the other dedicated upgrades thread, but since Jason seems to be frequenting this thread more often, I have a few questions:
   
  - when one says "experienced electronics technician or engineer who is familiar with ESD precautions," without exactly saying yes (since I'm sure liability/warranty is at issue here), would one think that experience assembling PC's would suffice? I've built quite a few desktops, am familiar with antistatic bags and the need for anti-static wristbands or mats when handling circuit boards/mother boards/hard drives and such. From the pictures at 6moons of Bifrost's guts, it seems like both the analog and USB boards are supported with metal standoffs, which would require a (non-magnetized!) Phillips head, and are connected to the "main board" with, as Srajan put it, "daddy longlegs contacts" which would appear to push into place. Seems relatively simple to me and something I'd be willing to undertake, but again, I understand the warranty voidance/liability potential at play here.
   
   
  - if we opt to send our Bifrosts/Gungnirs in to have the Schiit folks do the install, would we have the option of having the old USB and DAC/analog boards sent back along with our newly-upgraded Bifrosts/Gungnirs? I guess part of me, given my experience with hi-fi over the years and parts/things/tweaks that were supposed to sound better actually sounding worse to my own ears gives me pause about relinquishing the old boards altogether in the event that I decide I prefer them.
   
   
  - any potential for pics of the new boards? I just like looking at hi-fi guts, I guess. Ha.
   
   
   
  Thanks to Jason if he happens to browse.


----------



## nelamvr6

I am really pretty stoked about this!  My Bifrost already sounds so great. Can't wait to get it upgraded!


----------



## Jason Stoddard

Quote: 





internethandle said:


> - when one says "experienced electronics technician or engineer who is familiar with ESD precautions," without exactly saying yes (since I'm sure liability/warranty is at issue here), would one think that experience assembling PC's would suffice? I've built quite a few desktops, am familiar with antistatic bags and the need for anti-static wristbands or mats when handling circuit boards/mother boards/hard drives and such. From the pictures at 6moons of Bifrost's guts, it seems like both the analog and USB boards are supported with metal standoffs, which would require a (non-magnetized!) Phillips head, and are connected to the "main board" with, as Srajan put it, "daddy longlegs contacts" which would appear to push into place. Seems relatively simple to me and something I'd be willing to undertake, but again, I understand the warranty voidance/liability potential at play here.


 
   
  I can't comment more other than what's written on the product page, because we'd like to be around in, say, 5-10 years, rather than sued to oblivion because we invalidated the "no user servicable parts inside" clause, and someone decided to take, say, a Valhalla apart, while it's plugged in, while they're in the bathtub. I believe what's written on the page is fairly clear.
   
   
    


> - if we opt to send our Bifrosts/Gungnirs in to have the Schiit folks do the install, would we have the option of having the old USB and DAC/analog boards sent back along with our newly-upgraded Bifrosts/Gungnirs? I guess part of me, given my experience with hi-fi over the years and parts/things/tweaks that were supposed to sound better actually sounding worse to my own ears gives me pause about relinquishing the old boards altogether in the event that I decide I prefer them.


 
   
  Sure, if you'd like. It's not like we can use them in new product. Just leave us a note with your order and we'll send them back to you.
   
   
   


> - any potential for pics of the new boards? I just like looking at hi-fi guts, I guess. Ha.


 
   
  Eventually--we need to get them out to the photographer. Not a lot to look at, just more surface-mount parts on a board.


----------



## xpersona

These updates are usually introduced 10 days after you ordered your device.  So the device I will receive is already outdated.


----------



## Sanlitun

Just ordered the uber board.


----------



## nelamvr6

Quote: 





sanlitun said:


> Just ordered the uber board.


 
   
   
  Awesome!  Can you let us know exactly what's involved with installing it?  
   
  Just like  internethandle said, I'm pretty sure I could handle the install, but nonetheless, I'd really be interested in hearing how your install goes...


----------



## nelamvr6

OK, I couldn't wait, I ordered the board too.  
   
  I should be able to install it with nothing but duct tape, right?   I have official gray duct tape...


----------



## paradoxper

Quote: 





nelamvr6 said:


> OK, I couldn't wait, I ordered the board too.
> 
> I should be able to install it with nothing but duct tape, right?   I have official gray duct tape...


 
  Don't forget the bubble bath.


----------



## nelamvr6

Quote: 





paradoxper said:


> Don't forget the bubble bath.


 
   
   
   
  Oooohhhh...  Good point!   You think I can just use dish detergent?  Oh do I have to make a trip to Bath and Body Works?


----------



## Sanlitun

Quote: 





nelamvr6 said:


> OK, I couldn't wait, I ordered the board too.
> 
> I should be able to install it with nothing but duct tape, right?   I have official gray duct tape...


 
   
  Probably a wise move. Chances are this will be in back order status by Wednesday.


----------



## nelamvr6

Quote: 





sanlitun said:


> Probably a wise move. Chances are this will be in back order status by Wednesday.


 
  It looks to be fairly simple, just a daughterboard...  Put some Deoxit on the pins, install, replace the screws, turn it on and rock...
   
  I hope!


----------



## M-13

Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> 3.* That said, we think the sonic difference is significant, or we wouldn't offer it. *We've spent the last 18 months since the introduction of Bifrost looking for a DAC/Analog upgrade that made sense. And this is the result.
> 
> All the best,
> Jason


 
  Awesome. Just too tempting now. I'll probably order one soon. I loved the original bifrost. I'm wondering how the uber will hold up against the Concero?
   
  Jason. How close is the performance to the Gungnir? The Uber-Bifrost that is.


----------



## Argo Duck

^ I'm interested in Jason's view on Uber-Bifrost vs Gungnir too.
If close, Uber-Bifrost may be ideal for those who want Schiit sound (!) but don't drive balanced amps, that is *if* reports that Gungnir sounds better balanced than SE are true?!

Jason, any views on Gungnir balanced versus unbalanced that you care to share? Technically speaking, is there any reason SQ would differ between the two outputs, other things being about equal? Or is this for *us* to decide 

Cheers, Andre


----------



## HK_sends

Quote: 





xpersona said:


> These updates are usually introduced 10 days after you ordered your device.  So the device I will receive is already outdated.


 
  You gotta understand that the "regular" Bifrost sounds just fine!  I guess the Uber sounds a bit better, but I have been rocking a stock Bifrost since it pretty much came out and have had no complaints.  At least now I can save my pennies looking forward to a future upgrade while rocking an already excellent DAC.  You're not losing out...
   
  Cheers!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  -HK sends


----------



## HK_sends

Quote: 





nelamvr6 said:


> OK, I couldn't wait, I ordered the board too.
> 
> I should be able to install it with nothing but duct tape, right?   I have official gray duct tape...


 
  You need bailing wire to go with the duct tape!  Don't forget though, sticky side down...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  Cheers!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  -HK sends


----------



## nelamvr6

Quote: 





hk_sends said:


> You need bailing wire to go with the duct tape!  Don't forget though, sticky side down...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
   
  Bailing wire, of course!  Thanks for the tip!


----------



## internethandle

Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> I can't comment more other than what's written on the product page, because we'd like to be around in, say, 5-10 years, rather than sued to oblivion because we invalidated the "no user servicable parts inside" clause, and someone decided to take, say, a Valhalla apart, while it's plugged in, while they're in the bathtub. I believe what's written on the page is fairly clear.


 
   
  Yeah, definitely fair enough, I think I can read between the lines enough to know I feel up to the task. I'll let everyone know how it goes (assuming I'm still alive! just kidding). If anything, those of us encountering any potential problems with our own installs can groupthink our way through the process here on Head-Fi or elsewhere. Just now ordered the DAC board, looking forward to some sweet Schiit.


----------



## xpersona

Quote: 





hk_sends said:


> You gotta understand that the "regular" Bifrost sounds just fine!  I guess the Uber sounds a bit better, but I have been rocking a stock Bifrost since it pretty much came out and have had no complaints.  At least now I can save my pennies looking forward to a future upgrade while rocking an already excellent DAC.  You're not losing out...
> 
> Cheers!
> 
> ...


 
  Thank you for support! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  I'm a bit sad about USB gen 2: as Mac OS X limits optical out to 96khz, I'm planning to use USB link.


----------



## HK_sends

Quote: 





xpersona said:


> Thank you for support!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  That's what I use, however it is on a PC laptop.  I use Foobar 2000 with the WASAPI plug-in that is supposed to transfer a "bit-perfect" signal over usb...don't know about for sure, that but it's free and the music does sound oh so good!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Cheers!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  -HK sends


----------



## rlawli

Quote: 





internethandle said:


> Yeah, definitely fair enough, I think I can read between the lines enough to know I feel up to the task.


 
   
  In addition to the right screw driver and your ant-static tether to protect DAC, I'd suggest a good pair of hip waders to protect you while you're in the tub doing the install.


----------



## nelamvr6

Quote: 





rlawli said:


> In addition to the right screw driver and your ant-static tether to protect DAC, I'd suggest a good pair of hip waders to protect you while you're in the tub doing the install.


 
   
   
  You can't be too careful!


----------



## Nuttinbutair

I have two questions that Jason could answer.  

 Is the new USB card able to support 32/192?  My purpose is to use Audirvana + for volume control when used in my family room stereo.  The audio chain would be Computer -> DAC -> Amp.  With 32 bits, that should provide 48 dB of attenuation before a 24 bit signal looses resolution.  This is somewhat like the M51 approach to volume control, but the risk of the computer or software error permitting full voltage signals still has me a little worried.
 Is the new USB card capable of Integer mode in Audirvana +?  
   
  Currently I own a non-USB Bifrost.  I do enjoy its sound with a DI-V3 input, and the output going to my old Stax SRD-X and SR-X Mark III.  The Stax have never sounded as good as they do now.  Lately I have been contemplating a Gungnir, and if it is capable of 32/192 I may just have to order the USB option.  Now with the new Bifrost upgrade options, there is more to consider.  Decisions, decisions....


----------



## Squeezemenicely

ah well - I am weak, I just ordered the UBER and am really wondering how it can make my Bifrost sound better.
   
  Since there seem to be problems with the USB and linux - I wanted t use it with Squeezebox or better the new Community driven development based on a Wandboard - but the info I could find was that it does not work, shame would have made things easier...


----------



## gerald410

Quote: 





nelamvr6 said:


> I am really pretty stoked about this!  My Bifrost already sounds so great. Can't wait to get it upgraded!


 
  +1


----------



## Jodet

Quote: 





sanlitun said:


> Just ordered the uber board.


 
   
  Just ordered a new Bifrost _with_ the uber board.
   
  To use with a Logitech touch, Carver 20wpc tube amp and Harbeth P3ESR's.  
   
  Can't wait to hear it!


----------



## Tuco1965

Quote: 





jodet said:


> Just ordered a new Bifrost _with_ the uber board.
> 
> To use with a Logitech touch, Carver 20wpc tube amp and Harbeth P3ESR's.
> 
> Can't wait to hear it!


 
  Very nice!


----------



## RestoredSparda

I've been waiting since day one to get this! Already love the bifrost but just ordered Uber analog, skipped on USB version 2 as I just acquired a vlink 192. just took my bifrost apart to see how difficult it would be to remove the current analog card, no problem, just remove a few screws and gently pull off. The most difficult part was getting the dark grey section that houses the entire board back into the silver enclosure! Lining up those LEDs into those tiny holes is a pain!!!


----------



## HK_sends

Quote: 





restoredsparda said:


> I've been waiting since day one to get this! Already love the bifrost but just ordered Uber analog, skipped on USB version 2 as I just acquired a vlink 192. just took my bifrost apart to see how difficult it would be to remove the current analog card, no problem, just remove a few screws and gently pull off. The most difficult part was getting the dark grey section that houses the entire board back into the silver enclosure! Lining up those LEDs into those tiny holes is a pain!!!


 
  I know this might sound silly but it might help a lot of us, can you post some pictures of the disassembly/reassembly of the Bifrost?
   
  Thanks,
  -HK sends


----------



## RestoredSparda

hk_sends said:


> I know this might sound silly but it might help a lot of us, can you post some pictures of the disassembly/reassembly of the Bifrost?
> 
> Thanks,
> -HK sends





Not a problem. Should arrive sometime this week. I'll document the process and pop it online for anyone interested.


----------



## internethandle

Well, I have a bit of a public confession to make, as I have already, once, in the past taken apart my own Bifrost to replace its fuse with a "audiophile" fuse (which, I know sounds like audiophoolery, really did improve the sound!). I was inspired by either this thread or another here on Head-Fi where another Head-Fi'er reported an improvement, and at the time, at least, Jason implied that replacing the fuse would not _necessarily _void the warranty, but who knows how he'll feel now 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.
   
  Anyway, the most difficult part is, indeed, the chassis relative to the LED lights. As hard as I tried, I still couldn't _quite _get them lined up, and to this day the Bifrost has a bit of a dimmed quality with the lights, like they're receded a bit, but that's really not a bad thing given how notoriously bright they are, in my opinion. I also recall one of the (many, many) screws on the chassis having some difficulty threading into its standoff, but it wasn't terrible.


----------



## judmarc

nuttinbutair said:


> I have two questions that Jason could answer.
> 
> Is the new USB card able to support 32/192?  My purpose is to use Audirvana + for volume control when used in my family room stereo.  The audio chain would be Computer -> DAC -> Amp.  With 32 bits, that should provide 48 dB of attenuation before a 24 bit signal looses resolution.  This is somewhat like the M51 approach to volume control, but the risk of the computer or software error permitting full voltage signals still has me a little worried.
> Is the new USB card capable of Integer mode in Audirvana +?
> ...




Yes to both. Analog volume control is likely still better for sound quality, but it is 32-bit and integer mode capable with A+.


----------



## Nuttinbutair

Quote: 





judmarc said:


> Yes to both. Analog volume control is likely still better for sound quality, but it is 32-bit and integer mode capable with A+.


 
  Thanks Jud.  Have you tried the volume control in A+ with your Bifrost?  I believe that yours has the updated USB if I remember.
   
  John


----------



## mab1376

Can anyone send in the DAC for an upgrade?
   
  is it just $70? also does installing it myself require and soldering or is it all just screws and pins?


----------



## HK_sends

Quote: 





restoredsparda said:


> Not a problem. Should arrive sometime this week. I'll document the process and pop it online for anyone interested.


 
  Awesome, thanks!
   
  Cheers!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  -HK sends


----------



## HK_sends

Quote: 





internethandle said:


> Well, I have a bit of a public confession to make, as I have already, once, in the past taken apart my own Bifrost to replace its fuse with a "audiophile" fuse (which, I know sounds like audiophoolery, really did improve the sound!). I was inspired by either this thread or another here on Head-Fi where another Head-Fi'er reported an improvement, and at the time, at least, Jason implied that replacing the fuse would not _necessarily _void the warranty, but who knows how he'll feel now
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  I remembered that someone had taken it apart and talked about issues when putting it back together.  Thanks for the info!
   
  Cheers!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  -HK sends


----------



## Shimunogora

I just ordered the USB Gen 2 since I'm going to be switching over from a desktop to a PC Laptop soon. I'll be sure to post the process/results (and pictures if someone else doesn't do it before me).


----------



## internethandle

Hey judmarc, you also gonna take the plunge on either of these Bifrost upgrades? I only ask because I remember you being of the earlier owners of the Bifrost here on Head-Fi along with me and some others (and I think you also did the fuse swap? don't remember exactly). If not, I'll let you know how it goes with the Uber Analog board.


----------



## mab1376

I'd also really like to see someone document the install process of the Uber Analog board.


----------



## Argo Duck

^ RestoredSparda is going to document - see last post previous page.

My board shipped yesterday (I'll have no time to document the install). Looking forward to listening for changes. I'll use one of my other DACs for reference.


----------



## Radioking59

Anyone care to speculate how Schiit is going to implement DSD without requiring a different board to be installed? DSD to PCM converter?


----------



## RestoredSparda

radioking59 said:


> Anyone care to speculate how Schiit is going to implement DSD without requiring a different board to be installed? DSD to PCM converter?





My guess would be a firmware update. I may be grossly miss informed though.


----------



## nowis

I've taken my Bifrost apart. The Bifrost is made of two main metal parts. The light colored outer chassis and the dark colored inner chassis. First, you remove the inner chassis entirely by removing the top screws and the back screws (the ones securing the i/o connectors), and some of the bottom screws. I can't remember which of the bottom screws secure the inner chassis to the outer chassis. They are probably the outer-most screws. Most of the inner screws on the bottom secure the main board in place. Slide out the inner chassis to remove it. You will see that the main board is attached directly to the outer chassis via the other bottom screws mentioned earlier. You will need to unscrew the rest of the bottom screws to free the board.
   
  Installing the USB board or other upgrades is super-easy and doesn't need explaining. If it did, then you shouldn't be taking this thing apart.
   
  When you reassemble, it is important to attach the main board back onto the outer chassis FIRST via the bottom screws, so you can move the LEDs into the holes in the front using tweezers or what-have-you. Lastly, attach the inner chassis by sliding it back in and screwing the rest of the screws in.
   
  If you do not fully understand what I just wrote, or if you are not good with yours hands, or if you do not know how to disassemble something perfectly and reassemble something perfectly, or if you do not know how to screw things in properly, or do not have the proper precision tools, or any other reason that may cause you to fail, you shouldn't try this. Just send it in to Schiit.


----------



## nelamvr6

Mine's done!  It was easy!
  
  One thing I am disappointed about, I thought we were going to get the holographic sticker to put on the back of our cases...


----------



## nelamvr6

By far the most difficult part was lining up the LEDs on re-assembly.  Just be patient, take your time.  Be careful the leads that connect those LEDs bend easily.


----------



## nelamvr6

I heard back from Jason, I was supposed to get the sticker, he's fixing it so I am sent one.


----------



## elwappo99

ummmm ..... Pics??!!?!?


----------



## nelamvr6

Sorry, I didn't take any pics. Other guys had already said thy would document the procedure, I figured they'll prolly do a much better job than I could anyway.

It really wasn't difficult, as I mentioned, the hardest part was lining up the LEDs on reassembly.


----------



## HK_sends

I had to pop for the uber Bifrost and USB v.2 boards after reading all this...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  Cheers!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  -HK sends


----------



## RestoredSparda

te name="nelamvr6" url="/t/545842/schiit-dacs-bifrost-and-gungnir-down-one-to-go-the-information-and-anticipation-thread/3195#post_9400627"]Sorry, I didn't take any pics. Other guys had already said thy would document the procedure, I figured they'll prolly do a much better job than I could anyway.

It really wasn't difficult, as I mentioned, the hardest part was lining up the LEDs on reassembly.[/quote]

What are your first impressions? worth the money?


----------



## nelamvr6

restoredsparda said:


> te name="nelamvr6" url="/t/545842/schiit-dacs-bifrost-and-gungnir-down-one-to-go-the-information-and-anticipation-thread/3195#post_9400627"]Sorry, I didn't take any pics. Other guys had already said thy would document the procedure, I figured they'll prolly do a much better job than I could anyway.
> 
> It really wasn't difficult, as I mentioned, the hardest part was lining up the LEDs on reassembly.




What are your first impressions? worth the money?[/quote]

Absolutely! The best $70 I've spent in a long time!


----------



## RestoredSparda

nelamvr6 said:


> What are your first impressions? worth the money?




Absolutely! The best $70 I've spent in a long time![/quote]


Awesome! don't know what went wrong when I quoted you, haha.


----------



## nelamvr6

restoredsparda said:


> Absolutely! The best $70 I've spent in a long time!
> 
> 
> Awesome! don't know what went wrong when I quoted you, haha.




I'm not sure either...


----------



## audiojun

Soon to be bifrost owner here.

I notice on the usb option it says that its usb option is better than most usb to spdif convertors. Does that imply that the usb option itself is a usb to spdif convertor? is optical/coaxial input better than usb?


----------



## billerb1

I'm sure like most things it's system dependent.  I've just been running Spotify Premium off my computer through Lyr/Bifrost.  I ran it for quite awhile through the usb with a starlight usb cable...it was very good.  Then, for kicks, and because of Schiit's recommendation, I broke down and bought a Blue Jean coaxial cable and tried it (coax, not optical).  The difference in headroom, detail, separation, instrument timbre....
  everything...was amazing.  But that's my system...and my ears, lol.
  My Bifrost is out to Schiit right now for the upgrades.  Missin' it but looking forward to more goodness.


----------



## nelamvr6

I've been sitting here all evening trying out the Uber upgrade, listening to every really special title I have. 96/24 needledrops, 48/24 needledrops, MoFi CD rips, DCC CD rips, Audio Fidelity CD rips, everything I have on hand...

I suppose I'll have to believe that a $2000 DAC would sound better, but right now I can't imagine wanting more than I have right here! This thing sounds awesome! I'm very satisfied, the $70 was well worth it.


----------



## Sanlitun

Quote: 





audiojun said:


> Soon to be bifrost owner here.
> 
> I notice on the usb option it says that its usb option is better than most usb to spdif convertors. Does that imply that the usb option itself is a usb to spdif convertor? is optical/coaxial input better than usb?


 
   
  I use a computer sound card with the coax out just for this reason. I wouldn't want the USB board in my DAC out of fears it would introduce additional noise.
   
  The USB is mighty convenient tho.


----------



## M-13

Quote: 





nelamvr6 said:


> I've been sitting here all evening trying out the Uber upgrade, listening to every really special title I have. 96/24 needledrops, 48/24 needledrops, MoFi CD rips, DCC CD rips, Audio Fidelity CD rips, everything I have on hand...
> 
> I suppose I'll have to believe that a $2000 DAC would sound better, but right now I can't imagine wanting more than I have right here! This thing sounds awesome! I'm very satisfied, the $70 was well worth it.


 
  Sounds like good schiit. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
   Bravo Jason!


----------



## Radioking59

audiojun said:


> Soon to be bifrost owner here.
> 
> I notice on the usb option it says that its usb option is better than most usb to spdif convertors. Does that imply that the usb option itself is a usb to spdif convertor? is optical/coaxial input better than usb?




The Schiit website was quite critical of USB before they updated the USB board. They said it was like "telling a chef to make a great meal but he could only use McDonalds hamburgers" or something like that. All that talk has been removed, so they must think the new board is quite a step up over the old one. 

If you have an optical or coax out on your source I would pass on the USB though.


----------



## RestoredSparda

Quote: 





nelamvr6 said:


> I've been sitting here all evening trying out the Uber upgrade, listening to every really special title I have. 96/24 needledrops, 48/24 needledrops, MoFi CD rips, DCC CD rips, Audio Fidelity CD rips, everything I have on hand...
> 
> I suppose I'll have to believe that a $2000 DAC would sound better, but right now I can't imagine wanting more than I have right here! This thing sounds awesome! I'm very satisfied, the $70 was well worth it.


 
  Thanks for the impressions nelamvr6. It's always hard to believe that something can sound better when you're already satisfied. I remember thinking that the Dragonfly from audioquest was as far as I would ever need to go with a DAC....needless to say Bifrost stole the show and is my new favorite. Currently listening to Radiohead with HE500, EF5 amp, and Bifrost, with a Vlink192 as source. Honestly can't wait to hear how much MORE impressive the Uber Analog will be.   =)       It really is as great time for digital audio enthusiasts.


----------



## Kiont

radioking59 said:


> The Schiit website was quite critical of USB before they updated the USB board. They said it was like "telling a chef to make a great meal but he could only use McDonalds hamburgers" or something like that. All that talk has been removed, so they must think the new board is quite a step up over the old one.
> 
> If you have an optical or coax out on your source I would pass on the USB though.




I think this USB board should much better than the old one.
Jason mentioned on an email that optical is usually better than USB.

But that "better" is most likely barely noticeable.


----------



## judmarc

Quote: 





nuttinbutair said:


> Thanks Jud.  Have you tried the volume control in A+ with your Bifrost?  I believe that yours has the updated USB if I remember.
> 
> John


 
   
  Nope, have a great preamp to do analog volume, so there's never been a reason to fiddle with digital volume control in A+.


----------



## judmarc

Quote: 





kiont said:


> I think this USB board should much better than the old one.
> Jason mentioned on an email that optical is usually better than USB.
> 
> But that "better" is most likely barely noticeable.


 
   
  In my particular setup, USB sounds better than optical.
   
  This is very changeable system to system (how much jitter comes from your optical source and your coax? how much electrical noise through your coax and USB? does your software player provide oversampling, and how does it compare to the DAC chip's internal oversampling? do you want to play files that originate at or are oversampled to higher than 96kHz, and is your optical output hardware capable of this?), so blanket statements about most systems aren't IMO terribly helpful.


----------



## Shimunogora

I installed the USB Gen 2 card today.
   
  Here's the album:
  http://imgur.com/a/8JEGc


----------



## paradoxper

Perfect documentation. Glad all went well! Now impressions.


----------



## digitalzed

Quote: 





shimunogora said:


> I installed the USB Gen 2 card today.
> 
> Here's the album:
> http://imgur.com/a/8JEGc


 
  Thanks for the photo's! The emory board (nail filer) is a great idea to help realign the LED's. My USB and Analog cards will arrive tomorrow so this is really timely for me. Thanks again for posting photos.


----------



## elwappo99

Quote: 





shimunogora said:


> I installed the USB Gen 2 card today.
> 
> Here's the album:
> http://imgur.com/a/8JEGc


 
   
  Great work! This looks a lot easier than I would have imagined! 
   
  Quote: 





paradoxper said:


> Perfect documentation. Glad all went well! Now impressions.


 
   
  He just got it installed! We shouldn't be so demanding.
   
  But really, we want impressions now


----------



## flargosa

to align the led lights, install the board to the outer shell first.  Then use fingers to push the led lights to its hole.  Then installed the rear board.  This is what I did to finally get the led lights to line up.  By the way Uber analog board has clearer sound and meatier bass.


----------



## Shimunogora

paradoxper said:


> Perfect documentation. Glad all went well! Now impressions.




I don't exactly have trained ears, nor do I pay much attention to detail, but here are my (very uninformed and unanalytical) comments:

The sound quality is poor compared to the optical that I've been using for the past few months (Toslink out of a Xonar DG @ AHD-2000s). I can't exactly explain the quality difference (as I'm not good at pointing out specifics), but the sound is definitely less full. It is not something I would recommend adding unless you absolutely need it or it would be practical enough to use over optical/coax (though I think this is given). I didn't have the Gen 1, however, so I can't really comment on that. If you're hoping that it could replace SPDIF input then no, it's not quite there. My USB ports might just be cheap, though.


----------



## internethandle

Call me crazy but do Shimunogora's pictures show he already has the "Uber" board installed as well? Those two large caps, in particular, are definitely not on my stock non-Uber Bifrost's board, and the discrete output topology looks a lot more like Gungnir's. Maybe I missed where he said he had that already.


----------



## HK_sends

Quote: 





shimunogora said:


> I installed the USB Gen 2 card today.
> 
> Here's the album:
> http://imgur.com/a/8JEGc


 
  Thanks for the pictures!
   
  Cheers!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  -HK sends


----------



## Shimunogora

internethandle said:


> Call me crazy but do Shimunogora's pictures show he already has the "Uber" board installed as well? Those two large caps, in particular, are definitely not on my stock non-Uber Bifrost's board, and the discrete output topology looks a lot more like Gungnir's. Maybe I missed where he said he had that already.



As far as I am aware I do not have the Uber board. I got my Bifrost in late January (after about a one-month wait on backorders) and I haven't upgraded it since.

Edit: Bif4399ana V2.30 is what is printed on the board


----------



## Sanlitun

Quote: 





internethandle said:


> Call me crazy but do Shimunogora's pictures show he already has the "Uber" board installed as well? Those two large caps, in particular, are definitely not on my stock non-Uber Bifrost's board, and the discrete output topology looks a lot more like Gungnir's. Maybe I missed where he said he had that already.


 
   
  Interesting. It's different than the board pictures of the Bifrost on the Schiit website. 
   
  Maybe a manufacturing revision? Or maybe he got an Uber somehow.


----------



## EraserXIV

His is clearly different than the picture provided of the stock analog stage of the Bifrost on the Schiit website. The topology does look much more similar to the analog stage of the Gungnir. You can see something at the top of the PCB that looks like "v2.3", can't make out the other words though. Also, if you look you can also see that it says "Thanks to Siegfried Erda and Loge" at the edge of the PCB, that line also shows up on the analog stages of the Gungnir on the Schiit website. Maybe there have been unannounced revisions to the Bifrost, or maybe he got lucky and got a free Uber board


----------



## Sanlitun

I got my Bifrost in March. 
   
  I guess I have to ponder if I already have an Uber. I suppose I will find out for certain when my board arrives.
   
  If I look closely at Shimunagora's pics I can still see what I think are output caps tho. Can't really tell.
   
What we need is a pic of the Uber.


----------



## Shimunogora

That's strange. I updated my last post with the exact text that is on the Bifrost (Bif4399ana V2.30)
   
  I do think there may have been an unannounced revision. The version on my MB is 1.25 while most of the images I can find are still on 1.0. Perhaps the V1.25 Bifrosts come with the Uber already installed?
   
  Edit: Here's a higher-resolution image: http://i.imgur.com/8uGF3Oq.jpg


----------



## nelamvr6

Quote: 





shimunogora said:


> That's strange. I updated my last post with the exact text that is on the Bifrost (Bif4399ana V2.30)
> 
> I do think there may have been an unannounced revision. The version on my MB is 1.25 while most of the images I can find are still on 1.0. Perhaps the V1.25 Bifrosts come with the Uber already installed?
> 
> Edit: Here's a higher-resolution image: http://i.imgur.com/8uGF3Oq.jpg


 
   
  I'm looking right now at the analog board that I took out of my Bifrost, and it is identical to the one in that photo, even the same revison, V2.30.
   
  I'm not going to take my Bifrost apart again, I'm sure that the Uber boards will start arriving at more and more Head-Fier'l mailboxes, so I'm sure we'll be able to see photos of that board soon enough.


----------



## Shimunogora

I guess that confirms that there was a revision. I'm curious as per what improvements/changes were made from V1 to 2.30 to Uber.


----------



## nelamvr6

OK, I said I wasn't going to take my Bifrost apart, but curiosity got the better of me.
   
  I didn't take it all the way apart, just enough to take the inner case out.  I can see the board, and read the revision number.
   
  The old board says Schiit Bif4300ana v2.30.
   
  The new board says Bifrostupana v1.10.
   
  Those are the exact marking on each board.
   
  The do look similar in many regards, but not identical. Both of my boards have the two large capacitors, but my new Uber board has two smaller caps near the rear edge where the old board has four.
   
  BTW, my motherboard is v1.25.


----------



## Konijntjesnl

I am very interested in the Bifrost in combination with Asgard 2 and with the headphone Beyerdynamic DT 770Pro 80ohms version. Now how i am useing it now Spotify high quality -> Asus xonar hdav 1.3 spdif -> Denon AVR 1611 -> DT 770 Pro. Now my question if i buy the dac and amp will my headphone sound beter or is it to "low end" for the dac / amp ?


----------



## mwindham08

Quote: 





konijntjesnl said:


> I am very interested in the Bifrost in combination with Asgard 2 and with the headphone Beyerdynamic DT 770Pro 80ohms version. Now how i am useing it now Spotify high quality -> Asus xonar hdav 1.3 spdif -> Denon AVR 1611 -> DT 770 Pro. Now my question if i buy the dac and amp will my headphone sound beter or is it to "low end" for the dac / amp ?


 
   
  I would think you would get an improvement with a DAC.
   
  If you got a Bifrost/Asgard 2 combo I would think that Spotify would most likely be your bottle neck.
  It would still be a really good system though, especially as a first system, and for the price.


----------



## xpersona

I finally received my Bifrost/Lyr combo.
   
  I connected Bifrost via USB to my Mac OS X. As a result my system volume has become maxed out and only mute function is available.
   
  How can I get back the volume control to the computer keyboard? One of the reasons I preferred USB over optical out is convenient volume control.


----------



## internethandle

Quote: 





xpersona said:


> I finally received my Bifrost/Lyr combo.
> 
> I connected Bifrost via USB to my Mac OS X. As a result my system volume has become maxed out and only mute function is available.
> 
> How can I get back the volume control to the computer keyboard? One of the reasons I preferred USB over optical out is convenient volume control.


 
   
  Just my opinion, but I think for maximum SQ without degradation from the OSX's audio processing algorithms/schema you should allow the analog volume control of your Lyr to dictate volume level, not OSX (or even your player of choice). This is how I've run all my DACs, although I use Windows.


----------



## xpersona

Quote: 





internethandle said:


> Just my opinion, but I think for maximum SQ without degradation from the OSX's audio processing algorithms/schema you should allow the analog volume control of your Lyr to dictate volume level, not OSX (or even your player of choice). This is how I've run all my DACs, although I use Windows.


 
  Most of the time I don't need 100% quality from my audio but need comfort when adjusting volume. Besides, I'm not sure I can hear the difference if I use the system volume control (not the volume control in iTunes or other media players which are maxed just in case).
   
  My previous DACs did not disable system volume control when used via USB. Can I change this behaviour of Bifrost?


----------



## HK_sends

Quote: 





nelamvr6 said:


> OK, I said I wasn't going to take my Bifrost apart, but curiosity got the better of me.
> 
> I didn't take it all the way apart, just enough to take the inner case out.  I can see the board, and read the revision number.
> 
> ...


 
  My motherboard is v1.20.  So, revisions happen!
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  Cheers!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  -HK sends


----------



## internethandle

Quote: 





xpersona said:


> Most of the time I don't need 100% quality from my audio but need comfort when adjusting volume. Besides, I'm not sure I can hear the difference if I use the system volume control (not the volume control in iTunes or other media players which are maxed just in case).
> 
> My previous DACs did not disable system volume control when used via USB. Can I change this behaviour of Bifrost?


 
   
  The Bifrost makes many attempts to be "bit perfect" and/or asynchronous in its USB input, so therefore you're not going to be able to play music through it well if you don't use a bitperfect configuration, and even if you do, you're going to have to not change the data (read:OSX volume) a lot if you want it to remain asynchronously linked. that's,  at least, imho.


----------



## xpersona

Quote: 





internethandle said:


> The Bifrost makes many attempts to be "bit perfect" and/or asynchronous in its USB input, so therefore you're not going to be able to play music through it well if you don't use a bitperfect configuration, and even if you do, you're going to have to not change the data (read:OSX volume) a lot if you want it to remain asynchronously linked. that's,  at least, imho.


 
  OK. Thanks.
   
  Though I hoped to use my bifrost/lyr combo as general purpose DAC + pre-amp. It looks like my Schiit pile will have Maverick TubeMagic D1 Plus (with upgrades) connected to power amp as the base block. While Schiit will be dedicated to headphones.


----------



## xoaphexox

So what do we do with the original boards after the upgrade? Do they have resell value? Doesn't feel right to just recycle them.


----------



## flargosa

You should keep it in case your upgrade board goes bad.  That is what I did.  I don't think it has much resale value, much like upgrading your stock car stereo with an aftermarket one.  The auto manufacturer would probably not want the stock stereo back.  
  Quote: 





xoaphexox said:


> So what do we do with the original boards after the upgrade? Do they have resell value? Doesn't feel right to just recycle them.


----------



## erselhickeyfan

I have the Bifrost and have the clicking problem. The connection is coax from CD player.
  It occurs between tracks. The player is also a 6 disc carousel and it will click continuously
  if I hit pause - and doesn't stop until I resume play.  I was in contact with Jason Stoddard
  at Schiit and here's what he said...
  "Yep, if the CD player interrupts the data stream, Bifrost will click. That's the muting relay, doing its job."





   " Bifrost's mute activates every time there's an interruption in the data stream. Some CD players have constant, repetitive interruption when in pause. The only real solution is to use a different player or computer source, I'm afraid."
  So, what seems like a real design flaw is apparently 'Working As Designed'.


----------



## Anathallo

Quote: 





erselhickeyfan said:


> I have the Bifrost and have the clicking problem. The connection is coax from CD player.
> It occurs between tracks. The player is also a 6 disc carousel and it will click continuously
> if I hit pause - and doesn't stop until I resume play.  I was in contact with Jason Stoddard
> at Schiit and here's what he said...
> ...


 
   
  I agree - those CD player manufacturers should really get their act together!


----------



## mac336

has schiit given any info on a timeframe for release of their statement equipment?


----------



## justie

Aiming for summer release for amp and a little longer for dac


----------



## richpjr

Anyone compare an Uber with a Gungnir yet?


----------



## DogMeat

Just trying the Woo wa6 off the back of the Modi,(out of my iMac), for the first time.
  QUITE nice.
   
  Haven't had any issues with the Modi yet, did have some clicky/scratchy noises with the BiFrost--->Lyr.
  Most of the issues resolved with changing to the optical link, the USB wasn't happy for the BiFrost.
  The BF/Lyr combi is strictly for my LCD2s, I think I shall only DAC the Woo with the Modi in future, it's just such a nice match.
  The Mullard/Amperex metal base on there _REALLY _likes the Modi, too.
  Happy clams all the way around on this.


----------



## OICWUTUDIDTHAR

Can anyone else here some computer noise through the bifrost when using USB? Past 12 oclock on my amp dial  I can here a lot of distortion being passed through to the Bifrost. When my video card is under load I can here even more noise.


----------



## mac336

that's your amp causing the noise


----------



## OICWUTUDIDTHAR

Quote: 





mac336 said:


> that's your amp causing the noise


 
   
  It's not  the Lyr, when I unplug the USB cable from the Bifrost it goes away.


----------



## M-13

Quote: 





oicwutudidthar said:


> Can anyone else here some computer noise through the bifrost when using USB? Past 12 oclock on my amp dial  I can here a lot of distortion being passed through to the Bifrost. When my video card is under load I can here even more noise.


 
  Set all system sounds to mute and also disable Windows Aero. (Google how to if you don't know)


----------



## kessomatt

Try another USB port or a USB hub. Had the same problem but using the hub fixed it. Or use optical. Comes down to crappy shielding on your system.




oicwutudidthar said:


> It's not  the Lyr, when I unplug the USB cable from the Bifrost it goes away.


----------



## Erukian

Quote: 





kessomatt said:


> Try another USB port or a USB hub. Had the same problem but using the hub fixed it. Or use optical. Comes down to crappy shielding on your system.


 
  This might be why Jason recommended SPDIF to me over USB (instead of up-selling me to the USB board), it seems to be a more solid implementation for audio. Just my two cents.


----------



## azteca x

Quote: 





justie said:


> Aiming for summer release for amp and a little longer for dac


 
  This is awesome to hear.  What's your source?  Earlier posts or e-mails or face-to face conversation with them?


----------



## justie

earlier posts and I asked that myself just a few pages back. lol


----------



## Squeezemenicely

My Uber card arrived and I installed it. Aligning the LEDs is a bitch...
   
  Yes the upgrade makes a difference, I was happy before - but now the soundstage is even more exact and I enjoy my music even more.
   
  The Highs seem sweeter, if that makes any sense at all...
   
  Listened to some fav tracks before upgrade and straight after, so obviously no A/B testing.
   
  I am glad I upgraded, but Schiit also forgot to include the sticker with my upgrade, so I will contact Jason.


----------



## Scallywag

Quote: 





eraserxiv said:


> His is clearly different than the picture provided of the stock analog stage of the Bifrost on the Schiit website. The topology does look much more similar to the analog stage of the Gungnir. You can see something at the top of the PCB that looks like "v2.3", can't make out the other words though. Also, if you look you can also see that it says "Thanks to Siegfried Erda and Loge" at the edge of the PCB, that line also shows up on the analog stages of the Gungnir on the Schiit website. Maybe there have been unannounced revisions to the Bifrost, or maybe he got lucky and got a free Uber board


 
   
  That's a revision of the original board. The giveaway is the presence of four red, square-shaped film caps on the old boards. All revisions of the original board have them. The uber board is direct DC coupled which eliminates the need for those caps in the signal path.


----------



## audiojun

I installed the usb gen2 card on my bifrost and installed the drivers from schiit but it isn't bit perfect and it doesnt do 24 88.2k or 24 176.4k. The driver was called speakers: schiit

Anyone know how to fix this?


----------



## Erukian

Quote: 





audiojun said:


> I installed the usb gen2 card on my bifrost and installed the drivers from schiit but it isn't bit perfect and it doesnt do 24 88.2k or 24 176.4k. The driver was called speakers: schiit
> 
> Anyone know how to fix this?


 
  Color me off topic, but does anyone master audio for 24/88 or 24/176?


----------



## Llloyd

no they only master it *for *16/44


----------



## Nuttinbutair

Schiit DSD?!?!  So many questions!  Did I miss this discussion?
   
  The Bifrost FAQ on Schiit's web site says:
   
*How about DSD?*
We will have DSD solutions for all of our DACs in the near future.
   
  Anyone know what changes they will make?  A revision to the USB board?  Does this mean that a $99 DSD Modi is coming?


----------



## judmarc

Quote: 





erukian said:


> Color me off topic, but does anyone master audio for 24/88 or 24/176?


 
   
  First: audiojun, when you say "it" isn't bit perfect, what are you referring to?  I'm not that familiar with most Windows software (when I use Windows it's on my desktop system with a Dragonfly and XXHE), but isn't it whatever player you're using that is/isn't capable of bit perfect playback?  About the 24/88 and 24/176, I'm sorry - never had that problem.
   
  24/88.2 or 24/176.4 audio often comes from SACD/DSD sources (for example, Rolling Stones downloads available from HDTracks).


----------



## judmarc

Quote: 





nuttinbutair said:


> Schiit DSD?!?!  So many questions!  Did I miss this discussion?
> 
> The Bifrost FAQ on Schiit's web site says:
> 
> ...


 
   
  First, Nuttin, well caught.  Second, dang.  I just got done putting together a new DAC, partly for its DSD capability, and selling my Bifrost.  So the timing didn't quite work out for me.  But like everything Schiit does, I'd anticipate well designed stuff at a very good price.


----------



## traehekat

How do I know whether I should get the USB or non-USB Bifrost? That is, what things should I consider?


----------



## Erukian

My two cents are if you don't have a good spdif output from your source, get the USB board. 
   
  If you do, the difference is relatively small and I would save your money and buy the Uber upgrade instead.


----------



## audiojun

I am on windows 7. I have to select the bitrate myself it isnt automatic. I also dont have the option to pick 24 88 or 176. i used the offical drivers from schiit and i have usb gen 2.



judmarc said:


> First: audiojun, when you say "it" isn't bit perfect, what are you referring to?  I'm not that familiar with most Windows software (when I use Windows it's on my desktop system with a Dragonfly and XXHE), but isn't it whatever player you're using that is/isn't capable of bit perfect playback?  About the 24/88 and 24/176, I'm sorry - never had that problem.
> 
> 24/88.2 or 24/176.4 audio often comes from SACD/DSD sources (for example, Rolling Stones downloads available from HDTracks).


----------



## traehekat

Quote: 





erukian said:


> My two cents are if you don't have a good spdif output from your source, get the USB board.
> 
> If you do, the difference is relatively small and I would save your money and buy the Uber upgrade instead.


 
   
  Thanks, how do I know if I have a good spdif output? My source is a MBP.


----------



## Erukian

Quote: 





traehekat said:


> Thanks, how do I know if I have a good spdif output? My source is a MBP.


 
  What year? Their jitter numbers got a lot better around 2011 with around 10-20ps (very good). I would email Jason at Schiit and ask him. He's very responsive to email and I'm pretty happy with the results.
   
  Oh, and you can't output higher than 24/96khz on the mac's optical out, but 99% of my music is 24/44.1, 24/88.2 or 24/96khz and don't actually listen to 24/192 audiophile records because I like good music, so I don't really care.


----------



## traehekat

Quote: 





erukian said:


> What year? Their jitter numbers got a lot better around 2011 with around 10-20ps (very good). I would email Jason at Schiit and ask him. He's very responsive to email and I'm pretty happy with the results.
> 
> Oh, and you can't output higher than 24/96khz on the mac's optical out, but 99% of my music is 24/44.1, 24/88.2 or 24/96khz and don't actually listen to 24/192 audiophile records because I like good music, so I don't really care.


 
  Cool thanks for response! My MBP is from mid-2012 so should be good there, but I'll probably take your advice and send Jason an email. I've never actually heard anything other than 16/44.1 - how big of a difference is there between that and 24/96 or 24/192? I expect at some point I'll buy an album from HD Tracks at 24/96 and see if I can tell the difference myself, but I'd be curious to hear some other opinions.


----------



## Defiant00

Some people think they hear a difference and some don't (personally I don't).

 To me the mastering makes a big difference, but I've never been able to hear a difference solely based off of bitrate or sample rate differences.


----------



## Erukian

Quote: 





defiant00 said:


> To me the mastering makes a big difference, but I've never been able to hear a difference solely based off of bitrate or sample rate differences.


 
   
  +1, It's really all how the record is mastered. Just having higher bit-depth and a higher sample rate doesn't mean it'll sound much better (arguably if at all) than a redbook CD if it's the same master. I highly doubt people could tell with an ABX test.
   
  I'd worry more about the 24/96, 24/192 and DSD stuff if you step up and spend $1500+ on Schiit statement gear DAC with super nice cans like HD-800's or LCD-3's.
   
  Just one mans opinion. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Have a great Memorial Day weekend!


----------



## traehekat

Appreciate the opinions guys, thanks!


----------



## audiojun

I don't have 24bit/88.2khz and 24bit/176.4khz and I have the gen2 usb board. I have some 24bit 88.2khz music that i want to play. Is the bifrost capable of outputing 24/88?


----------



## judmarc

Yes, Bifrost is capable of those rates. Have you tried a player like foobar2000 to see if it will work?


----------



## judmarc

Sorry, DP.


----------



## traehekat

For those who use optical over USB, what would you use to connect to a MBP? Somethjng like this?

http://www.audioquest.com/fiber-optics/forest


----------



## paradoxper

Yep. Optical to Mini-optical


----------



## traehekat

Quote: 





paradoxper said:


> Yep. Optical to Mini-optical


 
  Cool, thanks.


----------



## PinkLed

Installed my uber last night. Sounds very bright but it could just need a good burn in.
   
  Can anyone that has both the optical and usb connection explain the main differences sound wise. Is there a loss in clarity or tonal change? Is it worth upgrading to a usb?


----------



## FlySweep

Quote: 





traehekat said:


> For those who use optical over USB, what would you use to connect to a MBP? Somethjng like this?
> 
> http://www.audioquest.com/fiber-optics/forest


 
   
Here's a cable that's cheaper.. w/ build quality that's just as good.


----------



## traehekat

Quote: 





flysweep said:


> Here's a cable that's cheaper.. w/ build quality that's just as good.


 
  aaaand purchased. thanks!


----------



## rrahman

Has anyone asked Jason about the statement amp/DAC recently? Maybe at T.H.E. show?


----------



## justie

Not if u want an extra $50 added to the price when it does come out


----------



## M-13

Quote: 





rrahman said:


> Has anyone asked Jason about the statement amp/DAC recently? Maybe at T.H.E. show?


 
   
  Quote: 





justie said:


> Not if u want an extra $50 added to the price when it does come out


 
  LOL 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Check the Schiit Owners Unite thread rrahman (Keep up with your Schiit man!). We've been raising the price together. It should now be like $50,000 a piece upon release.


----------



## PinkLed

Has anyone used the bifrost with a v200 or burson soloist? Im loving the new uber board and really want to save some money while driving my hd800's to the max.


----------



## Argo Duck

I've got a V100. Closest I come to the HD800 is the T1 (which I'm sure many would say isn't close at all). Don't know whether this would help?

However...still a few days before I change-in the uber board and at least a week before I would try the above combo. Taboo/LCD2; Meier Classic/LCD2; Classic/T1 are ahead in the queue.


----------



## traehekat

Can you burn in a DAC by playing music but shutting off the headphone amplifier? I prefer not to leave the Valhalla on for 48+ hours straight...


----------



## audiojun

Yes you'll be burning it in. But it probably wont do much to the sound.



traehekat said:


> Can you burn in a DAC by playing music but shutting off the headphone amplifier? I prefer not to leave the Valhalla on for 48+ hours straight...


----------



## traehekat

Quote: 





audiojun said:


> Yes you'll be burning it in. But it probably wont do much to the sound.


 
   
  Okay cool, thanks. Yeah, I figure if it does anything to the sound might as well speed it up a bit. 
   
  So I am using Audirvana and I am pretty new it, but does this look right? 
   
   

   
  I'm referring specifically to the fact that the file is ALAC 16/44.1 but it looks like the DAC is set to 24/44.1 - should the DAC be set to 16/44.1 or does that not matter?


----------



## Erukian

Quote: 





traehekat said:


> Okay cool, thanks. Yeah, I figure if it does anything to the sound might as well speed it up a bit.
> 
> So I am using Audirvana and I am pretty new it, but does this look right?
> 
> ...


 
   
  Does not matter, if you have 16bit material the stream is padded to 24bit with zero's and is still bit perfect.


----------



## Mediahound

erukian said:


> Does not matter, if you have 16bit material the stream is padded to 24bit with zero's and is still bit perfect.





If you want it to be bit perfect, you need to set it to play at 16 bit if that's what the source material is. Not 24.

Playing a 16 bit track at 24 bit is not bit perfect. 

Whether or not you ears will notice a difference is debatable but from a technical standpoint, some quality will be lost in the upsample.


----------



## kn19h7

Quote: 





mediahound said:


> If you want it to be bit perfect, you need to set it to play at 16 bit if that's what the source material is. Not 24.
> 
> Playing a 16 bit track at 24 bit is not bit perfect.
> 
> Whether or not you ears will notice a difference is debatable but from a technical standpoint, some quality will be lost in the upsample.


 
  No. There is no upsample involved by padding 0's to make 16bit to 24bit, just no.


----------



## judmarc

Correct, zero padding is not upsampling, it is simply adding places to the "word length." This is not the rate at which sampling is done, it is the amplitude (loudness) variation range of the samples. So whether you say amplitude is -.5 or -.500000000, no actual difference in loudness.

If you do upsample, you need longer word lengths. Whether you have a -.5 amplitude sample once in a second, or once every half second for two samples in a row, your graph will look just the same. But if you have a -.25 amplitude sample the first half second and a -.50 amplitude after one second, you've got a different, sloping graph.

Finally: Almost no DACs, includind Bifrost and Gungnir, are "bit perfect" through the D/A conversion stage. Nearly all of them have DAC chips that send the signal through a series of 2x upsampling steps to get to the 8x rates (352.8/384kHz) where D/A conversion is usually done. Although 2x upsampling just sounds like multiplication and therefore capable of being done exactly, it actually involves more complex math called Fourier transforms and cannot be done with exact accuracy. So depending on the algorithm that's used, using good player software like the iZotope software bundled with Audirvana to upsample to the max 192kHz input may actually give a more accurate final result than just leaving the signal bit perfect all the way to the DAC input.

Not saying everyone should start upsampling, just don't get too "religious" about bit perfect - listen to both if you have a chance and see what you like.


----------



## Jason Stoddard

Quote:  





> Although 2x upsampling just sounds like multiplication and therefore capable of being done exactly, it actually involves more complex math called Fourier transforms and cannot be done with exact accuracy.


 
   
  Actually, it can. True closed-form digital filters are possible. Stay tuned.


----------



## Anathallo

Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> Actually, it can. True closed-form digital filters are possible. Stay tuned.


 
   
  Such a tease!


----------



## judmarc

jason stoddard said:


> Actually, it can. True closed-form digital filters are possible. Stay tuned.




Now *that* is interesting. So a couple decades after Mike showed everyone how to do digital filtering the first time, you guys are gonna show how to do it better, eh?

What, one digital-to-analog conversion revolution ain't enough for one lifetime?


----------



## Erukian

Quote: 





judmarc said:


> Now *that* is interesting. So a couple decades after Mike showed everyone how to do digital filtering the first time, you guys are gonna show how to do it better, eh?
> 
> What, one digital-to-analog conversion revolution ain't enough for one lifetime?


 
  Sounds like a potential DAC upgrade to me.


----------



## azteca x

Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> Actually, it can. True closed-form digital filters are possible. Stay tuned.


 
  DADDY LIKE


----------



## JWahl

Very interesting information about the filtering.  I recently had a Resonessence Concero that I had to sell for the money and temporarily replaced it with a Modi (for the 2nd time).  Interestingly, owning the Concero has really taught me the importance of well executed digital filters as the Concero simply uses an ES9023 chip with it's integrated analog output, but adds an FPGA with their own upsampling/filtering algorithms.  Between their minimum phase IIR and linear phase apodizing filters, I generally preferred the apodizing filter.  It's also powered by USB bus power like the Modi and also 6x the price of the Modi. 
   
  Another interesting thing I learned, is that at least from my PC, the windows processor scheduling, and background tasks actually has a significant negative impact on sound quality in my experience.  Using a program like Fidelizer, re-prioritizes processor scheduling for audio priority and kills unnecessary background tasks, significantly improved the sound of the Concero.  The effect was even more dramatic with the Modi.  With Fidelizer enabled, the Modi comes _dangerously_ close to the Concero at 1/6th the price.  And actually has a slightly more natural midrange presentation.  I'm actually feeling the Modi will be satisfying enough in my source critical setup until the statement DAC rolls around.  Though it does make me curious of what the Bifrost Uber, or Gungnir USB would be capable of when fed a highly prioritized USB stream.


----------



## xpersona

To the left you may see the upgrade to USB Gen 2 which I have just received (had to order one because my 'old' board could not survive the short circuit received via USB from my Mac Mini (RIP) which in turn got it from the TV (burn in hell!) connected via HDMI).
   
  To the right you may see the USB board which i found in my Bifrost which was shipped to me one or two weeks before the upgrade was announced.
   
  Could you please tell me if Schiit guys shipped me old stock or they were kind earlier to send me the new board before it was even announced? 
   
   

   
  Also installed Uber upgrade - can't tell if my ears can hear the difference on my HD650 so far.
   
  Hurray to Bifrost's module design!


----------



## Alexnova

edit: going to start a new thread on this.


----------



## Defiant00

Quote: 





xpersona said:


> To the left you may see the upgrade to USB Gen 2 which I have just received (had to order one because my 'old' board could not survive the short circuit received via USB from my Mac Mini (RIP) which in turn got it from the TV (burn in hell!) connected via HDMI).
> 
> To the right you may see the USB board which i found in my Bifrost which was shipped to me one or two weeks before the upgrade was announced.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Schiit has said that they were using the new USB boards in DACs for a few weeks before they announced the upgrade.


----------



## mab1376

How is no one talking about the Yggdrasil?
   
  http://schiit.com/ragnarok-yggdrasil.pdf


----------



## azteca x

Been plenty of discussion in the Schiit owners thread:
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/601151/schiit-owners-unite/2310


----------



## mangler

Double post, ooops!


----------



## paradoxper

Quote: 





mangler said:


> Is Ragnarok a balanced amp that also has TRS outs (like Liquid Gold) or an unbalanced amp that has XLR outs (like Liquid Glass)? I think it's probably balanced because it has the same circlotron-style output topology as Mjolnir, but can anybody confirm this?


 
  It's a balanced amp that also has TRS outs.


----------



## wkhanna

Quote: 





judmarc said:


> ..............Finally: Almost no DACs, includind Bifrost and Gungnir, are "bit perfect" through the D/A conversion stage. Nearly all of them have DAC chips that send the signal through a series of 2x upsampling steps to get to the 8x rates (352.8/384kHz) where D/A conversion is usually done. Although 2x upsampling just sounds like multiplication and therefore capable of being done exactly, it actually involves more complex math called Fourier transforms and cannot be done with exact accuracy. So depending on the algorithm that's used, using good player software like the iZotope software bundled with Audirvana to upsample to the max 192kHz input may actually give a more accurate final result than just leaving the signal bit perfect all the way to the DAC input.
> 
> Not saying everyone should start upsampling, just don't get too "religious" about bit perfect - listen to both if you have a chance and see what you like.


 
   
  Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> Actually, it can. True closed-form digital filters are possible. Stay tuned.


 
  [size=10pt]Are these the same filters that are used to correct aliasing?[/size]
   
  [size=10pt]I just had a four hour conversation over dinner with Brian Zolner at the Capital Audiofest. If Mike & Jason have come up with a way to perform conversion without introducing artifacts, anomalies, & errors………..[/size]
   
  [size=10pt]………well, let us just say the entire industry is about to be turned upside down, inside out & seven ways from two.[/size]


----------



## PewterTA

Quote: 





wkhanna said:


> [size=10pt]………well, let us just say the entire industry is about to be turned upside down, inside out & seven ways from two.[/size]


 
   
  Wouldn't that be "the Schiit's going to hit the fan!?"  Just saying.
   
  It was a BLAST hanging out with Brian over dinner, really nice guy and has some great ideas on DACs.  The M1 he makes is awesome.... but the price is at a level that I'm not quite ready to go to.  If the new Statement is even close to something like that and a more likeable price.... well I'm ready to order!


----------



## pelli

Quote: 





pewterta said:


> Wouldn't that be "the Schiit's going to hit the fan!?"  Just saying.
> 
> It was a BLAST hanging out with Brian over dinner, really nice guy and has some great ideas on DACs.  The M1 he makes is awesome.... but the price is at a level that I'm not quite ready to go to.  If the new Statement is even close to something like that and a more likeable price.... well I'm ready to order!


 
   
  The M1 seems to be at a similar price point as the Gungir. I hate to say it, but the Yggdrasil is going to be $1700-1900.  at a lower price tag I would take a serious look at the Bifrost.  It love mine and I haven't gotten around to the Uber upgrade yet.  Stereophile gave it a great review and considered it one of the best "bang for the buck" products they have ever tested.  With the upgrade potential in the future it really could be an "endgame" DAC for people who aren't looking to put together multi-thousand dollar systems.    
   
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/667711/new-schiit-ragnarok-and-yggdrasil


----------



## PewterTA

Brian Zolner is of Bricasti Design, his Bricasti M1 is $8,595.... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Having heard it.... it's basically a DAC I would never feel the need to upgrade.  Which is why I'm saying if the Statement is close to that (or even in the realm) I'll save myself some money and get it and put the money "saved" towards my new Pre and possibly amps (Classe CP-800 & CA-M600s).


----------



## paradoxper

Quote: 





pewterta said:


> Brian Zolner is of Bricasti Design, his Bricasti M1 is $8,595....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  He mixed up the Musical Fidelity M1 with the Bricasti M1.


----------



## Killbox

Oh, no. I bought a new computer and now I have that click sound from the dac again. Click every time I click back and forth from any folders. How do I fix this?


----------



## 333jeffery

Schiit just released a DSD dac called Loki for $149....


----------



## yblad

erselhickeyfan said:


> I have the Bifrost and have the clicking problem. The connection is coax from CD player.
> It occurs between tracks. The player is also a 6 disc carousel and it will click continuously
> if I hit pause - and doesn't stop until I resume play.  I was in contact with Jason Stoddard
> at Schiit and here's what he said...
> ...


 
 It's not a design flaw it's a design feature. It's a high end device design, which means it makes certain asumption about what you connect it to also properly made. The muting relay is a feature which makes the device better, they had to make a choice between making it operate noislessly no matter what you do or have increased performace when it is used properly. It's hifi, so only one of those is really an option.
  
 You can't damage the quality of the device to account for bad design on the part of another component. Even if they had chosen to sacrifice performance to fix these problems when certain bad components are used there would still be problems with other bad components. You have to make a decision as to how much you will try to fix other component's bad design, if you try to do it for absolutely eveything that includes people hooking it up to a lightening rod. There are infinte possibilities for bad design and you can't expect them to account for them all. There's a million ways to do something badly and only a handul of ways to do it well, schitt have assumed the equipment being used is of a comparable quality and has been designed with a similar high quality in mind.


----------



## BruinAnteater

Just did the USB Upgrade to my UberBifrost myself (taking the last screw off the case was the hardest part, really)! I was running the UberBifrost off the optical fed from the E-Mu 1212m Optical Out. I absolutely LOVED the sound of the Uber-Bifrost then, but got the USB upgrade for two reasons:
  
 a) when I got the Uber-Bifrost originally, I actually DIDN'T know that the E-MU 1212m's optical and Coax out were limited to 96/24. I have a lot of 192/24 files, so I had to downsample those on the fly.
 b) Unfortunately, with the E-MU 1212m's Patchmix board, you have to set up a listening/switch a session for EACH sample rate/bit depth. So I could either pause listening every time I played a song with a different sample rate, or I just set up ONE Patchmix session and let JRiver Up/Downsmaple all my songs.
  
 Dunno how big of a difference this makes on the Bifrost. What I do know is that as far as my mobile set up was concerned, I found my HRT microstreamer to have tiny bit better over all performance on everything up to and including 96/24 files over the X3 (I used the X3 as a DAP and DAC); but when it came to 192/24, the X3 was able to play these files in their native form, while the HRT had to downsample them and the X3 sounded much better then. So I figured the USB upgrade was worth it on the Bifrost, since it would allow me to play everything in its native format.
  
 Thus far, I havent A/B'ed the difference between USB Bifrost playing 96/24 vs Optical, or USB playing 44/16 native vs Optical upsampled, or USB playing 192/24 native vs Optical downsampled.
  
 For those of you who have ran the Bifrost in both USB and Optical/Coax mode, which do you preferer, SQ wise?


----------



## jaytee61

"Thus far, I havent A/B'ed the difference between USB Bifrost playing 96/24 vs Optical, or USB playing 44/16 native vs Optical upsampled, or USB playing 192/24 native vs Optical downsampled.
For those of you who have ran the Bifrost in both USB and Optical/Coax mode, which do you preferer, SQ wise?"




Bruinanteater,
I'd like to know this as well as I'm about ready to buy a Bifrost and am unsure whether or not I should spring for the usb.


----------



## BruinAnteater

jaytee61 said:


> "Thus far, I havent A/B'ed the difference between USB Bifrost playing 96/24 vs Optical, or USB playing 44/16 native vs Optical upsampled, or USB playing 192/24 native vs Optical downsampled.
> For those of you who have ran the Bifrost in both USB and Optical/Coax mode, which do you preferer, SQ wise?"
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Hope I am not too late. I did the A/Bing over the weekend. Overall the differences were so negligible that, if you said the differences were all in my head, I wouldn't argue with you. So here are my (quite possibly strictly psychological) impressions now that I have more experience with USB vs Optical/Coax:
  
 1) Keep in mind that due to how the EMU-1212m works (my optical/coax source), I must lock it at a certain sample rate/bit depth, I chose 96/24, so if its not 96/24, JRiver resamples it on the fly
 2) On tracks that are below 96/24, I felt that the USB in native sounded a lil less harsh than the Optical locked at 96/24.
 3) On tracks that were at 96/24 exactly, the optical might have sounded a little cleaner.
 4) On tracks were above 192/24, I could tell no difference between the downsampled Optical vs native USB 192/24.
  
 So, if you have an optical/coax out that is capable of changing between different sample rates (vs something that MUST be locked to a sample rate/bit depth like the EMu), and especially if your optical/coax can do 192/24 and you were limited on funds, DEFINITELY get the Uber Analog upgrade over the USB. In fact, do this anyway. I never heard the Bifrost w/o the Uber stage but from what I've read, its the upgrade that really makes the Bifrost sing. The USB is worth it if it's the only way you have to connect the Bifrost. If optical/coax is an option and you only have the cash to spend on one upgrade, do the Uber! You can  always do the USB upgrade later is you're really curious, its easy as pie to do yourself.


----------



## jaytee61

bruinanteater said:


> Hope I am not too late. I did the A/Bing over the weekend. Overall the differences were so negligible that, if you said the differences were all in my head, I wouldn't argue with you. So here are my (quite possibly strictly psychological) impressions now that I have more experience with USB vs Optical/Coax:
> 
> 1) Keep in mind that due to how the EMU-1212m works (my optical/coax source), I must lock it at a certain sample rate/bit depth, I chose 96/24, so if its not 96/24, JRiver resamples it on the fly
> 2) On tracks that are below 96/24, I felt that the USB in native sounded a lil less harsh than the Optical locked at 96/24.
> ...


 

 Thanks for that info BruinAnteater. That helps alot. That is most likely what I will order, the Uber w/o usb. My dilema now is that a friend recommended another DAC, the SimAudio Moon 100D. 350 @ MD. Still researching, but leaning towards the Schiit...BTW, I'll be using mostly Macs for source.


----------



## BruinAnteater

jaytee61 said:


> Thanks for that info BruinAnteater. That helps alot. That is most likely what I will order, the Uber w/o usb. My dilema now is that a friend recommended another DAC, the SimAudio Moon 100D. 350 @ MD. Still researching, but leaning towards the Schiit...BTW, I'll be using mostly Macs for source.


 
 The great thing about Schiit products is that they have a 15-Day open return policy. Best thing to do is to try out both DACs if you can. Can your friend let you borrow his SimAudio? If so, they it would be really simply to just order the Schiit and return it if  you like the Sim better.
  
 I also found the Bifrost to be awesome right out of the box. I generally don't believe in 'break-in' periods for equipment that doesn't have physical moving parts (ie. I believe that speakers and headphones do 'break-in,' but amps and DACs don't). That's not to say I don't notice changes as I use electronic equipment, but I think what is getting broken in with things like DACs and amps is my brain: the brain is basically learning and acclimating to a new sound signature, so what was once a new and strange new sound, becomes the norm and becomes what the brain expects to hear as 'good sound.'
  
 Whether stuff like DACs break in, or whether its my brain thats really getting broken in, the Bifrost sounded awesome right out of the box, as if it was already broken in: I basically fell in love with it on the first listen. So you could probably make a quick evaluation as to what sounds best to you.
  
 As far as your source is concerned, do you know what sample rates it can output? If it covers all the bases, then you really only need to concern yourself with the quality of your music files. Ideally, a digital out should just pass 1s and 0s and your DAC should be doing all the work, so your optical out should be just fine! Let me know what you decide to go with and how you like it!


----------



## HPiper

I saw that deal on the SimAudio 100D too. I know their 300D gets rave reviews but then it is a $2500 dac. But the 100D is interesting at that price.


----------



## jaytee61

hpiper said:


> I saw that deal on the SimAudio 100D too. I know their 300D gets rave reviews but then it is a $2500 dac. But the 100D is interesting at that price.




Yes very interesting. And the same price as a non-uber, non usb bifrost. Decisions-Decisions. This is tuff. Anyone have any insight they can offer? My setup is imac>dac>speedballed crack>hd650. I will be ordering one or the other by weeks end. Thanks


----------



## jexby

jaytee61 said:


> Yes very interesting. And the same price as a non-uber, non usb bifrost. Decisions-Decisions. This is tuff. Anyone have any insight they can offer? I will be ordering one or the other by weeks end. Thanks


 
  
 wow, the SimAudio 100D can only do 16-bits/48Khz over USB?
 no thanks.
  
 SimAudio tries to "talk the user" into using S/PDIF or another input instead because they can't deliver high-res USB for audio?
 despite many others in the industry (Schiit, Resonessence, CEntrance) having utilized USB so successfully....
 hurm.


----------



## rivon

Schiit!
  
 No multibit upgrades for Gungnir nor Bifrost yet!
  
 Best regards,
  
 Roberto


----------



## HeyWaj10

Ya...gonna be quite a while. Don't hold your breath.


----------



## wildwood88

Hey guys, trying to find a warm tube amp and dac for my dt990 pro and hd600. Currently I am using o2 amp and the sound is too bright. If I change to schiit lyr+bifrost, will that match? Will it be warm? Or I can swap to littledot mk4+bifrost?


----------



## money4me247

rivon said:


> Schiit! No multibit upgrades for Gungnir nor Bifrost yet! Best regards, Roberto


 
@rivon - gungnir multibit upgrades available!


----------



## rivon

Yess!!!!
  
 Best regards,
  
 Roberto


----------



## thirdworldman

judmarc said:


> Don't know how many of you are in a similar situation to mine, which is that I've been an audiophile for more than 30 years, have had much of my current equipment for around 20 years, and just fairly recently have begun to explore computers as audio sources.  I have a 20 year old DAC that was a pretty fair piece of equipment for its day, but it is limited to 16/44.1 or 16/48 resolution.  So when the designer of my old DAC (Mike Moffat) came out with a new one that could handle resolutions up to 24/192 at a very nice price point, I was interested, and soon ordered one.  There's a 15-day money back guarantee, so the focus of my early listening has been to compare my older DAC to the Bifrost on 16/44.1 CD rips, which makes up virtually all of what I listen to these days.  If anyone here has an older DAC and is considering the Bifrost, perhaps you'll be interested in my early listening impressions so far.
> 
> Details of my setup are in my sig.  All listening was done with the Audirvana Plus audiophile player for Mac.
> 
> ...


 

 Okay, so I'm a little late to the party.
  
 I just received by Bifrost non-Uber and now have about 75 hours on it.
  
 My experience exactly mirrors what Judmarc has stated except he did a far better job than I ever could.
  
 Thanks, Judmarc.


----------



## CJs06

Reviving an old thread with a very relevant update.

Jason released that there would be a multibit Bifrost upgrade in his blog.

Discuss 

Personally I'm excited that they are bringing multibit to their lineup of DACs minus the Modi. Jason's latest chapter in his blog explains alot of their motivation behind development, implementation of their affordable R2R multibit DAC and bringing it to market.


----------



## Poimandres

Now if only the bifrost would stack with the MJ2!


----------



## kenman345

cjs06 said:


> Reviving an old thread with a very relevant update.
> 
> Jason released that there would be a multibit Bifrost upgrade in his blog.
> 
> ...


 
 Price analysis, the multi-bit upgrade should require half the number of parts as the Gungnir version, yes? So halve the $500 upgrade price and you get $250. I am sure its not exactly that though, so lets go with them setting a price of $200 for it on a unit from factory or a $300 user send in upgrade price. I think that would put everything at about $719 for a new fully stocked unit. That would still be very interesting and competitive with the DAC's that the BiFrost Uber has already been compared to in the past.


----------



## sheldaze

kenman345 said:


> Price analysis, the multi-bit upgrade should require half the number of parts as the Gungnir version, yes? So halve the $500 upgrade price and you get $250. I am sure its not exactly that though, so lets go with them setting a price of $200 for it on a unit from factory or a $300 user send in upgrade price. I think that would put everything at about $719 for a new fully stocked unit. That would still be very interesting and competitive with the DAC's that the BiFrost Uber has already been compared to in the past.


 
 How difficult have the previous Bifrost upgrades been? I bought my Uberfrost with USB from the factory. I've never tried to open it up.
  
 On second thought, I don't think we'll be able to upgrade to multi-bit on our own. The Gungnir upgrade required people to send it back to the factory because there was a programable upgrade as part of the process, and only one shop here in the states (and one in Europe) with the computer and program. So does that up your estimate to $300? I think I'm okay with the cost


----------



## CJs06

I bought the Uber Analog and USB Gen 2 upgrades recently and installed them myself. Very easy and straight forward, though I think you're right with the potential of having to send the Bifrost in to be reprogrammed for a multi-bit board upgrade.


----------



## riverlethe

jason stoddard said:


> Um, a couple more comments:
> 
> 1. Galvanic isolation? Like I said, of course we have that. I simply thought no competently designed, non-bus-powered device would be without it, so we never mentioned it. It's like saying your new lamp comes with a power cord. Duh.
> 
> ...


 
  
 So, what happened with this galvanic isolation thing?  The USB gen 2 board is quite noisy from a PC and will not run off an iPad without a powered hub.  Am I to assume it's not a "competently designed, non-bus powered" device?


----------



## manywelps

riverlethe said:


> jason stoddard said:
> 
> 
> > Um, a couple more comments:
> ...


 

 I was at the SF meet and 2 people ran my Bifrost straight off their iphones through USB (otg)... no hubs or anything involved.  (It has usb gen 2. board)
  
 Furthermore, the USB input isn't noisy in the slightest.  (Compared to the optical in).
  
 Did you get a ground loop or something?


----------



## riverlethe

manywelps said:


> I was at the SF meet and 2 people ran my Bifrost straight off their iphones through USB (otg)... no hubs or anything involved.  (It has usb gen 2. board)
> 
> Furthermore, the USB input isn't noisy in the slightest.  (Compared to the optical in).
> 
> Did you get a ground loop or something?




Yes, ground loops are the main reason for galvanic isolation.


----------



## dominiquejames

Hi, guys! I'm not sure if this has been brought up before--I have a question about the USB male plug that goes into Bifrost. I mean, it should go all the way in, right? And not half-way? Should it make a click sound to signify proper connection? I'm unfamiliar with this male USB plug, and it seems loose when connected half-way and I can still see part of the metal rod, which is most likely the reason why connection information on the Sound and Audio Midi setup of the Macbook Pro disappears intermittently, and of course, the music stops. I tried exerting a bit of force to plug the USB into Bifrost but it doesn't seem to want to go all the way in. Right now, I'm connected with Toslink, which isn't giving me any problem at all. But since I bought a PYST cable for the USB, I thought I might as well make use of it. Anyway, is there a difference in quality between a Toslink or USB connection to source?


----------



## rune-san

dominiquejames said:


> Hi, guys! I'm not sure if this has been brought up before--I have a question about the USB male plug that goes into Bifrost. I mean, it should go all the way in, right? And not half-way? Should it make a click sound to signify proper connection? I'm unfamiliar with this male USB plug, and it seems loose when connected half-way and I can still see part of the metal rod, which is most likely the reason why connection information on the Sound and Audio Midi setup of the Macbook Pro disappears intermittently, and of course, the music stops. I tried exerting a bit of force to plug the USB into Bifrost but it doesn't seem to want to go all the way in. Right now, I'm connected with Toslink, which isn't giving me any problem at all. But since I bought a PYST cable for the USB, I thought I might as well make use of it. Anyway, is there a difference in quality between a Toslink or USB connection to source?


 
  
 On the BiFrost, having a portion of the plug sticking out is perfectly normal. I have the same partial exposure of the USB connector and have issues playing off my MBP, rMBP, and Windows Desktop. Do you have any other USB-based machines to compare if it was Software vs. Hardware? I had some cut-in cut-out in audio several years ago on the rMBP, but it went away completely after the Yosemite upgrade (where I had performed a clean install). There was something in the previous install causing issues.
  
 As far as the quality difference between Toslink and USB, you'll no doubt ask 10 different times and manage to get 10 different answers I'm certain. For me, I subscribe to the scientific standard that digital is digital, and both the SPDIF receiver IC and the USB IC are of very good quality. Aside from gain level differences, I find no difference between the two.


----------



## bearwarrior

Can anyone comment about R2R ladder DACs? Will it be an improvement from Schiit Multibit?


----------



## ScareDe2

Can someone please tell me if it is possible to use a music player such as fiio x5 as a digital source to send to the Bifrost? Thank you


----------



## feelingears

ScareDe2 said:


> Can someone please tell me if it is possible to use a music player such as fiio x5 as a digital source to send to the Bifrost? Thank you



Because I wanted a "better" server than my laptop at work, I happened to think about doing this myself recently. If I read the spec sheet correctly, the Fiio uses a mini or micro-USB out for digital signal, so that means you'd need a cable with the right terminations on it to connect Fiio to Schiit. I don't think those cables are available, but I'm probably wrong. That said, I opted to pass as odd USB cables tend to be crap and if I have to buy a Fiio, I don't want it to be schiity to my Schiit. Just me though; I hear cables. But it seems if you can find the cable you could output to your DAC.

Other option is digital out of your phone/tablet (if you have one) and USB adapter to DAC. Or pony up to Schiit Eitr and then coax S/PDIF to DAC (which some swear by for beating USB woes). Haven't tried it myself but maybe someday. Good luck.


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