# what is the difference between copper and silver cable?



## Hughkk

As stated in the topic, what is the difference between copper and silver cable, these two looks like the most common upgrade cable.
  what is the pros and cons of both of them?
   
  i am totaly new to this topic, so it might be a completely stupid question.


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## Parall3l

The existence of difference between cables has been argued over a lot. With one side saying it doesn't do anything audible, and the other saying it does wonders like improving sound stage and tightening bass. 

 http://www.head-fi.org/t/576426/do-high-end-audio-cables-matter


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## Hughkk

is it including power cables?


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## liamstrain

Those who believe power cables make a difference are an ever smaller subset... audio signal cables seem almost reasonable to find audible differences in.
   
  Power cables - provided they are well shielded and of high enough capacitance, don't really matter much.


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## Hughkk

Quote: 





liamstrain said:


> Those who believe power cables make a difference are an ever smaller subset... audio signal cables seem almost reasonable to find audible differences in.
> 
> Power cables - provided they are well shielded and of high enough capacitance, don't really matter much.


 


  i saw people in this forum saying Burson 160 is more dependent on cables and power supply more than any other amp.
  so this guy is probably in minor group? so powering an amp with usb and a power socket will result the same, if this guy is not 'right'?
   
  and i also saw isolation wooden rack. are those also mostly placebo?


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## liamstrain

It depends on who you ask. But those of us who ask for objective scientific evidence for these things, tend to say yes - mostly placebo.
   
  With the caveat that you do still need solid racks, and reasonably stable power, cables with enough capacitance and well soldered connectors, etc. But exotic materials, uber expensive isolation points, custom power cables, etc, fall under my personal snake oil categories.


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## yifu

Subjectively, some people will tell you silver yields better imaging and better details while copper gives you a midbass bump to give you better bass and thus richer sound.
   
  Objectively, silver has a lower resistance (15vs 16 nano ohms per metre) and its oxide is more stable (non-flaking, more resistance to water in the same way aluminium oxide is), which means none of that copper cable turning green aka oxidising. Copper cable oxidation is a serious issue so most cables (phone, speaker, electric) have to be changed, anywhere from 3-30 years, depending on conditions. You should also be aware that both cables will lose their metallic lattice structure with constant bending (cryoed copper treatment reduces this) and that anything beyon 99.99% pure copper is BS. 
   
  Personally, i use copper.


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## Hughkk

Quote: 





yifu said:


> Subjectively, some people will tell you silver yields better imaging and better details while copper gives you a midbass bump to give you better bass and thus richer sound.
> 
> Objectively, silver has a lower resistance (15vs 16 nano ohms per metre) and its oxide is more stable (non-flaking, more resistance to water in the same way aluminium oxide is), which means none of that copper cable turning green aka oxidising. Copper cable oxidation is a serious issue so most cables (phone, speaker, electric) have to be changed, anywhere from 3-30 years, depending on conditions. You should also be aware that both cables will lose their metallic lattice structure with constant bending (cryoed copper treatment reduces this) and that anything beyon 99.99% pure copper is BS.
> 
> Personally, i use copper.


 
  do u noticed significant difference before changing cable?
  have u done a blindtest?


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## yifu

Like i told you, objectively, there is definitely a difference between silver and copper cables that can be measured by instruments. It's a matter of simple physics, higher resistance=lower power. However, i can't hear any difference between them and doubt any human can. Good quality cables are very much alike in terms of sound.
  
  Quote: 





hughkk said:


> do u noticed significant difference before changing cable?
> have u done a blindtest?


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## astroid

The hair tongs i use for my chest run hotter with a silver cable feeding them..


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## Hughkk

The best investment I have made this year was the purchase of the Music Streamer II – found it at MacWorld 2011. I have been happily listening to my music "as new" ever since. After hearing new details in songs that have been familiar for decades, I decided that I had to go back and re-rip my entire CD collection (2,000+) using the best possible digital quality (Apple Lossless – in iTunes). If you truly love music, you must try this product. For best results, invest in a better-than-average USB cable as well, and you will be hearing every detail that your favorite artists included in the recording.

   
  this is a review from streamerII dac,
  so the guy mentioned getting a better USB. Is this guy talking BS?


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## liamstrain

Pretty much. As long as you don't have a broken USB cable - they are all made to a specific specification... audiophile USB (to me) sounds like BS - at the very least, I have not seen any reliable evidence to suggest that they make any difference whatsoever.


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## Hughkk

Quote: 





liamstrain said:


> Pretty much. As long as you don't have a broken USB cable - they are all made to a specific specification... audiophile USB (to me) sounds like BS - at the very least, I have not seen any reliable evidence to suggest that they make any difference whatsoever.


 


  well i have friends having a 300USD cable for his triple fi iem.
  guess it is placebo mostly then. And it makes him feel rich


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## liamstrain

I have no problem with recables for function, aesthetics, better or specialty connectors (balanced etc.) - but $300 for IEM's seems a bit much. But if he's happy - who am I to say he's wrong to spend his money that way. It's something I wouldn't do personally, and I won't recommend the product or ever suggest such a thing is necessary or will make any improvement in sound.


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## scootermafia

The real problem with the silver vs. copper debate is that people assume all copper sounds one way and all silver sounds another way.  There's a lot of overlap, unexpected things...you never know, the metal sounds unique depending on a number of factors.  This is such a huge problem - that all people think copper sounds "warm" and so on - that it even clouds my judgement when I'm trying to get a handle on how something sounds.  The silver color of the silver wire, the word silver in your head, messes with you and tells you it will sound a certain way.


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## Hughkk

so u believe cables to make a difference, affect the sound of the headphone/iem


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## scootermafia

Nope.  Hate cables. ^^^^^^^^^^


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## Steve Eddy

Quote: 





scootermafia said:


> Nope.  Hate cables. ^^^^^^^^^^


 

 And they hate you too. So there! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  se


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## DaveBSC

Quote: 





scootermafia said:


> The real problem with the silver vs. copper debate is that people assume all copper sounds one way and all silver sounds another way.  There's a lot of overlap, unexpected things...you never know, the metal sounds unique depending on a number of factors.  This is such a huge problem - that all people think copper sounds "warm" and so on - that it even clouds my judgement when I'm trying to get a handle on how something sounds.  The silver color of the silver wire, the word silver in your head, messes with you and tells you it will sound a certain way.


 

 XLO is case in point. Copper, not warm. You can also plate copper with silver of course, but I've never heard a SPC analog cable that I liked. Silver _combined _with copper as in Harmonic Tech cables is different. That can be good.


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## yifu

And you're a member of trade for... Cables... I dont get it?
  
  Quote: 





scootermafia said:


> Nope.  Hate cables. ^^^^^^^^^^


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## Old Pa

Depends on the rest of your hardware and software.  And your hearing, objectively and subjectively.  Your first step is to get decent equipment and recordings.  FWIW, a significant part of my definition of high fidelity is being able to hear fine details and nuances reproduced in a life-like fashion.  And both interconnects and power cords have to be mechanically well-constructed out of good materials.
   
  That being said, the overall sonic differences between copper and silver are that copper in generally smoother while silver in generally faster.  Since I like both qualities, I use LAT International interconnects for my most critical links.  As to power cords, I find I get most of the available improvement from solid hospital-grade outlets and power cords (such as the ILJ cord from TubeAudioDesign).
   
  Your mileage, of course, may vary.   And never forget that belief is perception.


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## Lenni

Quote: 





scootermafia said:


> Nope.  Hate cables. ^^^^^^^^^^


 


yifu said:


> And you're a member of trade for... Cables... I dont get it?


 

 it's a joke.
   
  se, on the other hand, doesn't believe cables make a difference at all, and he makes... cables... that, I don't get it.


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## liamstrain

Quote: 





yifu said:


> Like i told you, objectively, there is definitely a difference between silver and copper cables that can be measured by instruments. It's a matter of simple physics, higher resistance=lower power. However, i can't hear any difference between them and doubt any human can. Good quality cables are very much alike in terms of sound.


 


  This is especially true when you realize that the difference in resistance between them is so small that over a 10 foot headphone cable, shortening the copper cable by 1cm, is enough to have it perform better (decrease its resistance) than the silver does again.


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## Steve Eddy

Quote: 





lenni said:


> se, on the other hand, doesn't believe cables make a difference at all, and he makes... cables... that, I don't get it.


 

 That's incorrect. "se" doesn't hold any belief one way or the other.
   
  Please stop misrepresenting my views to others.
   
  se


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## Lenni

okay..okay... I know... I'm only joking... my bad


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## Redcarmoose

Each piece of equipment may have a sound all to itself. Best to try stuff in your own system and decide on your own. It never hurts to barrow a friends set of cables.


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## bingbangboom99

i'd say that silver ultimately has an ever so slight advantage over copper. probably in a technical specification when tested with highly sensitive equipment. but i also believe that it all depends to how good your hearing is and what sounds you are used to. all in all it is a topic that is highly subjective to the ears of the listener. or at least i think so. comments?


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## Chris J

Quote: 





steve eddy said:


> That's incorrect. "se" doesn't hold any belief one way or the other.
> 
> Please stop misrepresenting my views to others.
> 
> se


 


 Hey Steve....................are we allowed to talk about cables here????????  
  LOL


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## Steve Eddy

Quote: 





bingbangboom99 said:


> i'd say that silver ultimately has an ever so slight advantage over copper. probably in a technical specification when tested with highly sensitive equipment.


 
   
  The only difference is that silver is slightly more conductive than copper. About 5 or 6 percent. But then you can just use a bit more copper and achieve the same thing.
   
  se


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## Steve Eddy

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Hey Steve....................are we allowed to talk about cables here????????
> LOL


 

 Yes, you're allowed. Just don't do it aloud. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  se


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## scootermafia

There's a difference between how silver measures and what technical details you can produce about it as an element, and how it actually affects audio systems.  People can say whatever they want about how silver measures with instrumentation, but the only instrument that matters is your ears, so make your own decisions.  To me, there is more to silver than just 5-6% additional conductivity.


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## Steve Eddy

Quote: 





scootermafia said:


> There's a difference between how silver measures and what technical details you can produce about it as an element, and how it actually affects audio systems.  People can say whatever they want about how silver measures with instrumentation, but the only instrument that matters is your ears, so make your own decisions.  To me, there is more to silver than just 5-6% additional conductivity.


 

 If only our ears were as sensitive, accurate and reliable as instruments. Unfortunately our ears are plugged into a highly subjective and often unreliable thing called the human brain.
   
  Which is all well and good for purely subjective evaluation. But it's worthless for determining whether or not there's any actual difference between the two beyond conductivity. And since no one has ever demonstrated there to be any difference beyond conductivity, I can't see any basis for a belief that there is.
   
  se


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## scootermafia

What about that guy on the forums that did FR curves of his headphones with different cables and found differences?  I need to go catch up with that thread.  If a super-sensitive mic with powers beyond my ears can find a difference, then I'm content with that.


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## Steve Eddy

Quote: 





scootermafia said:


> What about that guy on the forums that did FR curves of his headphones with different cables and found differences?  I need to go catch up with that thread.  If a super-sensitive mic with powers beyond my ears can find a difference, then I'm content with that.


 

 Those measurements were a mess. There were so many variables changing from one to the other that it's impossible to tell what was the cause of the differences that showed up in the measurements. It may have had absolutely nothing to do with the cables at all.
   
  se


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## Lenni

Quote: 





steve eddy said:


> If only our ears were as sensitive, accurate and reliable as instruments. Unfortunately our ears are plugged into a highly subjective and often unreliable thing called the human brain.
> 
> Which is all well and good for purely subjective evaluation. But it's worthless for determining whether or not there's any actual difference between the two beyond conductivity. And since no one has ever demonstrated there to be any difference beyond conductivity, I can't see any basis for a belief that there is.
> 
> se


 


  tell that to pigeons in the Antarctica during the breeding season when their back to their colony with food and had to find their chick among 400.000 other screaming chicks all packed together. I think the brain (human or not) is far more sensitive than any machine can ever be today. true, our brain is not reliable at giving exact numbers, and that's what machine are good for, but that's where it ends. personally, I'd trust my ears, when it comes to audio, before whatever any machine says.
   
  in this forum we discuss cables and their attributes, such as sound differences, etc... - usually with others who have _actually_ tried different cables - not measurable evidences. there's a forum call "science forum" for that.
  please stop posting such post here. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  price, among other things, it's a difference between copper and silver. the latter being friggin' expensive.


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## Tetsuma

Yeah! Your science has no place in the church of cables.


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## Lenni

Quote: 





tetsuma said:


> Yeah! Your science religion has no place in the sound of cables.


 


  FTFY


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## Rdr. Seraphim

So, Steve, why do you make cables, and at the prices you charge ($300 - $600, and more)? Aren't you doing the same thing as everyone else in the business? What makes your cables audibly better than RS, AQ, Cardas, etc? They do have interesting packaging, unique names, appear to be well made (at least mostly in the USA), and interestingly, they get good reviews in the major audio e-zines (e.g. Q-Tao reviewed by SixMoons, PFO). Maybe they were set up to take advantage of the placebo effect from a marketing perspective? And, why do you hang out in the Sound Science forum giving the "impression" that cables don't make a difference, but sell your cables obviously targeted for the audiophile market (who else could afford them)? 
   
  Quote: 





steve eddy said:


> If only our ears were as sensitive, accurate and reliable as instruments. Unfortunately our ears are plugged into a highly subjective and often unreliable thing called the human brain.
> 
> Which is all well and good for purely subjective evaluation. But it's worthless for determining whether or not there's any actual difference between the two beyond conductivity. And since no one has ever demonstrated there to be any difference beyond conductivity, I can't see any basis for a belief that there is.
> 
> se


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## Steve Eddy

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *Lenni* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> tell that to pigeons in the Antarctica during the breeding season when their back to their colony with food and had to find their chick among 400.000 other screaming chicks all packed together.


 
   
  And then you have humans who have put photographs of themselves in their freezers and professed improvements in the sound of their systems.
   
  Quote: 





> I think the brain (human or not) is far more sensitive than any machine can ever be today. true, our brain is not reliable at giving exact numbers, and that's what machine are good for, but that's where it ends.


 
   
  Yet it's trivially easy to get people to subjectively perceive differences even when there are no actual differences.
   
  So much for reliability.
   
  Quote: 





> personally, I'd trust my ears, when it comes to audio, before whatever any machine says.


 
   
  That depends on what you're trusting them to do. If you're trusting them to tell you what sounds good/bad/better to you, whatever the reason may be, that's fine. But if you're trusting them to determine whether or not there is an actual audible difference, that's a whole other matter.
   
  Quote: 





> in this forum we discuss cables and their attributes, such as sound differences, etc... - usually with others who have _actually_ tried different cables - not measurable evidences. there's a forum call "science forum" for that.
> please stop posting such post here.


 
   
  Tell that to those who brought up technical/measurement issues. I was only responding to those posts.
   
  se


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## Lenni

Quote: 





steve eddy said:


> And then you have humans who have put photographs of themselves in their freezers and professed improvements in the sound of their systems.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


 

 never heard of that before.... it does sound kind of nutty.
   
   
  can't argue with the rest.
   
   
  so, we're not expecting to see Q-Audio's silver/silver-plated cables in a near future then, if ever?


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## Steve Eddy

Quote: 





rdr. seraphim said:


> So, Steve, why do you make cables, and at the prices you charge ($300 - $600, and more)?


 

 The cables that I make and sell are the cables I first and foremost designed and made for myself. One has to earn a living and I prefer earn a living doing something I enjoy rather than something that simply makes money. Audio has been a love of mine since I was a kid and that's the area I most enjoy earning a living doing.
   
  As for prices, prices are dictated by their cost to produce along with a sufficient profit to assure that the business is sustainable. The cables require a significant amount of hand labor and that accounts for a good portion of the pricing. I'd tried having them machine made to reduce the amount of hand labor, but the litz wire that I like doesn't get along well with the process of braiding cotton over it (for some reason it causes the litz wire to become kinked and twisted). So the prices I'm asking aren't for any lack of trying to make them lower.
   
  Quote: 





> Aren't you doing the same thing as everyone else in the business?


 
   
  I'm not sure what you mean by this. Care to elaborate a bit?
   
  Quote: 





> What makes your cables audibly better than RS, AQ, Cardas, etc?


 
   
  I don't recall making any such claim so I'm not sure why you're asking this.
   
  Quote: 





> They do have interesting packaging, unique names, appear to be well made (at least mostly in the USA), and interestingly, they get good reviews in the major audio e-zines (e.g. Q-Tao reviewed by SixMoons, PFO). Maybe they were set up to take advantage of the placebo effect from a marketing perspective?


 
   
  If I were to take such a cynical approach, I would be selling quite a different cable than I am now and marketing it in quite a different way.
   
  As I said above, the cables I make and sell are first and foremost the cables I designed and made for myself. The only marketing is to simply say what they are, what they're made of and what they cost. In fact the other day someone suggested that perhaps I suck at marketing. To that I replied that perhaps I do, and that given what marketing has become these days, I would take some pride in that.
   
  Quote: 





> And, why do you hang out in the Sound Science forum giving the "impression" that cables don't make a difference, but sell your cables obviously targeted for the audiophile market (who else could afford them)?


 
   
  All I've said is that to date, no one has ever demonstrated actual audible differences between cables, save for instances where the measured differences were within currently known audible thresholds. That's just a simple statement of fact.
   
  As for my cables, the primary target is myself. And my pursuit of audio is not a utilitarian, objective pursuit but rather a wholly subjective pursuit. All I care about at the end of the day is the subjective pleasure and enjoyment I get, regardless of what the reasons for it might be. And the cables I designed give me the greatest pleasure sonically, aesthetically and philosophically. Do they make an audible difference? I don't know. Nor do I really care. I'm only concerned with the subjective pleasure I get from them at the end of the day.
   
  se


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## Steve Eddy

Quote: 





lenni said:


> never heard of that before.... it does sound kind of nutty.


 

 Because it is nutty (do a bit of reading up on Peter Belt).
   
  But it illustrates quite well that you can literally make up most anything and some number of people will say it made a difference, which further illustrates that our subjective perceptions simply aren't as reliable as we'd like to believe they are.
   
  Quote: 





> so, we're not expecting to see Q-Audio's silver/silver-plated cables in a near future then, if ever?


 
   
  'Fraid not. Sorry. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  se


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## scootermafia

Hold on guys, I've got to check the time on my Clever Little Clock.


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## sridhar3

Quote:


steve eddy said:


> But it illustrates quite well that you can literally make up most anything and some number of people will say it made a difference, which further illustrates that our subjective perceptions simply aren't as reliable as we'd like to believe they are.


 
   
http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/auc.pl?accstwek&1322188223


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## Steve Eddy

Quote: 





scootermafia said:


> Hold on guys, I've got to check the time on my Clever Little Clock.


 

 Has your Clever Little Clock been treated with the Telepotation Tweak? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  se


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## sridhar3

Quote:


steve eddy said:


> Has your Clever Little Clock been treated with the Telepotation Tweak?


 

 Needs moar Shakti Stone.


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## scootermafia

I was going to do the teleportation tweak, but it costs more per minute than Miss Cleo.


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## scootermafia

Quote: 





sridhar3 said:


> Quote:
> 
> http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/auc.pl?accstwek&1322188223


 


  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPYese-Hl8M


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## Mambosenior

Now that Arthur C. Clarke has passed, Geoffkait is my go-to guy for great science fiction.


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## khaos974

Quote: 





steve eddy said:


> All I've said is that to date, no one has ever demonstrated actual audible differences between cables, save for instances where the measured differences were within currently known audible thresholds. That's just a simple statement of fact.
> 
> As for my cables, the primary target is myself. And my pursuit of audio is not a utilitarian, objective pursuit but rather a wholly subjective pursuit. All I care about at the end of the day is the subjective pleasure and enjoyment I get, regardless of what the reasons for it might be. And the cables I designed give me the greatest pleasure sonically, aesthetically and philosophically. Do they make an audible difference? I don't know. Nor do I really care. I'm only concerned with the subjective pleasure I get from them at the end of the day.
> 
> se


 

 The funny thing in this is that as someone who doesn't believe in an audible difference in cable, I may still one day buy cables from Steve Eddy simple because his cables look and feel nice, and their maker doesn't try to b******t people with pseudo science.


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## Steve Eddy

Quote: 





khaos974 said:


> ...with pseudo science.


 

 Or as they say in the cheezy infomercials, "genuine faux science." 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  se


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## Head Injury

It smells like the real thing.


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## RexAeterna

steve eddy said:


> Has your Clever Little Clock been treated with the Telepotation Tweak?
> 
> se




impossible. the clock is just a placebo. time does not exist. it's an illusion like everything else on this planet. we live in the matrix.


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## Steve Eddy

Quote: 





rexaeterna said:


> impossible. the clock is just a placebo. time does not exist. it's an illusion like everything else on this planet. we live in the matrix.


 

 Well that's a relief. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  se


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## Joe Skubinski

steve eddy said:


> As for my cables, the primary target is myself. And my pursuit of audio is not a utilitarian, objective pursuit but rather a wholly subjective pursuit. All I care about at the end of the day is the subjective pleasure and enjoyment I get, regardless of what the reasons for it might be. And the cables I designed give me the greatest pleasure sonically, aesthetically and philosophically. Do they make an audible difference? I don't know. Nor do I really care. I'm only concerned with the subjective pleasure I get from them at the end of the day.
> 
> se




So you target yourself subjectively in the design of your product, yet claim no subjective component in its sale, only an objective one. :rolleyes: How can you be both subjective and objective toward a particular product yet claim to be unaware of any subjective component ?

If your cable has no known subjective benefits that you can list, then why would anyone else [other than youself] purchase it?




steve eddy said:


> One has to earn a living and I prefer earn a living doing something I enjoy rather than something that simply makes money. Audio has been a love of mine since I was a kid and that's the area I most enjoy earning a living doing.




One should keep this in mind when commenting on another.






rdr. seraphim said:


> So, Steve, why do you make cables, and at the prices you charge ($300 - $600, and more)? Aren't you doing the same thing as everyone else in the business? What makes your cables audibly better than RS, AQ, Cardas, etc? They do have interesting packaging, unique names, appear to be well made (at least mostly in the USA), and interestingly, they get good reviews in the major audio e-zines (e.g. Q-Tao reviewed by SixMoons, PFO). Maybe they were set up to take advantage of the placebo effect from a marketing perspective? And, why do you hang out in the Sound Science forum giving the "impression" that cables don't make a difference, but sell your cables obviously targeted for the audiophile market (who else could afford them)?






steve eddy said:


> The cables that I make and sell are the cables I first and foremost designed and made for myself. One has to earn a living and I prefer earn a living doing something I enjoy rather than something that simply makes money. Audio has been a love of mine since I was a kid and that's the area I most enjoy earning a living doing.
> 
> As for prices, prices are dictated by their cost to produce along with a sufficient profit to assure that the business is sustainable. The cables require a significant amount of hand labor and that accounts for a good portion of the pricing. I'd tried having them machine made to reduce the amount of hand labor, but the litz wire that I like doesn't get along well with the process of braiding cotton over it (for some reason it causes the litz wire to become kinked and twisted). So the prices I'm asking aren't for any lack of trying to make them lower.
> 
> ...






steve eddy said:


> And then you have humans who have put photographs of themselves in their freezers and professed improvements in the sound of their systems.
> 
> 
> Yet it's trivially easy to get people to subjectively perceive differences even when there are no actual differences.
> ...


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## pigmode

Quote: 





steve eddy said:


> And the cables I designed give me the greatest pleasure sonically, aesthetically and philosophically. *Do they make an audible difference? I don't know. Nor do I really care. I'm only concerned with the subjective pleasure I get from them at the end of the day.*
> 
> se


 


   
  With that kind of doublespeak, you should run for office. Seriously.


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## Chris J

Quote: 





pigmode said:


> With that kind of doublespeak, you should run for office. Seriously.


 

 X2
   
  Note to Steve Eddy: you're a nice guy, usually I enjoy your comments.........but seriously?
   
  Note to Joe:  as a cable manufacturer, can you tell us why audiophile cables are so damn expensive?


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## Steve Eddy

Quote: 





joe skubinski said:


> So you target yourself subjectively in the design of your product, yet claim no subjective component in its sale, only an objective one.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  I don't claim any subjective benefits because any such benefits are, by definition (DUH!), subjective.
   
  Not everyone has the same subjective experience in response to a given thing. Nor does everyone have the same subjective tastes and preferences as everyone else. I can only relate to my own subjective experience. I can't possibly tell anyone else what their particular subjective experience will be. So what would be the point other than a cynical attempt to predispose people to have certain expectations?
   
  Quote: 





> If your cable has no known subjective benefits that you can list, then why would anyone else [other than youself] purchase it?


 
   
  Perhaps in order to discover what_* their*_ particular subjective experience will be?
   
  And I'm afraid that's just going to have to do, because I could never bring myself to be so arrogant as to try and tell someone what their subjective experience will be or should be. If one could do that, then it would no longer be subjective, would it?
   
  se


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## Steve Eddy

Quote:  





> With that kind of doublespeak, you should run for office. Seriously.


 

 What doublespeak is that? My pursuit of the enjoyment of audio and reproduced music is purely hedonistic and subjective. And to that end, I don't care whether or not something produces an actual audible difference. So I fail to see where you get the doublespeak from. Would you care to explain it?
   
  se


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## Steve Eddy

Quote: 





chris j said:


> X2
> 
> Note to Steve Eddy: you're a nice guy, usually I enjoy your comments.........but seriously?


 

 Yes, seriously. I fail to see what the problem is. Perhaps you'd care to try and explain it as well.
   
  se


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## Icenine2

I own Moon Audio Blue Dragon Silver RCA IC's and Straightwire Maestro II's.  I got the Silver to try them out and they were reasonably priced as cables go.  Many told me they were going to be too bright, strident, etc.  None of the above.  I A/B'd both IC's and could get any of that for differences at all.  I preferred the Blue Dragons' in the end but there was no brightness issues like others say (that I could detect).


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## Lenni

Quote: 





steve eddy said:


> Yes, seriously. I fail to see what the problem is. Perhaps you'd care to try and explain it as well.
> 
> se


 
   
   
  okay, I’ll tell you what problem I had with your "approach" to cable topics in general, if I may... in brief.
   
  First: my impression was that you believed most (all?) cable manufactures are somewhat selling snake oil, or are a fraud, etc.. - I don’t want to go dig up your comments here or elsewhere - but it’s safe to say you think cables cannot play a part in the overall sound of a system (right?). See, it still remains pretty weird that you make audiophile cables, however you want to look at it. you say you enjoy making cables - but you won’t experiment with different metals.
   
  Second: is the same problem I have with the like of Monster, Bose, and everyone else who’s in this business just for the profit. I firmly believe that audio components should only be made by audiophiles for audiophiles; unfortunately it's far from being the case. but your last comment (post #41) has somewhat changed my impression, and I’m quite grateful to you for posting that.
   
  Lastly, I don't wish to mess with nobody business, but I think your view of audiophile cables is a shame; with your knowledge you could perhaps make some really good cables. If I had your knowledge and means I would be experimenting night and day with all kind of metals, combinations, approaches etc..  trying to make the best cables I could.
   
  anyway, I hope I'm not being too importunate here


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## Steve Eddy

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *Lenni* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> okay, I’ll tell you what problem I had with your "approach" to cable topics in general, if I may... in brief.


 

 Sure.
   
  Quote: 





> First: my impression was that you believed most (all?) cable manufactures are somewhat selling snake oil, or are a fraud, etc..


 
   
  I believe there's a good amount of that, yes. And not limited just to cables.
   
  Quote: 





> - I don’t want to go dig up your comments here or elsewhere - but it’s safe to say you think cables cannot play a part in the overall sound of a system (right?).


 
   
  What I've said repeatedly is that no one to date has demonstrated that cables make an audible difference outside of those instances where the cable's resistance, inductance and/or capacitance are sufficiently high to alter the signal within known thresholds of audibility.
   
  That's just a simple statement of fact. What would you prefer I do? Deny it and adopt what would be tantamount to some blind faith religious belief?
   
  Quote: 





> See, it still remains pretty weird that you make audiophile cables, however you want to look at it. you say you enjoy making cables - but you won’t experiment with different metals.


 
   
  I've been involved in high end audio for nearly 30 years. And over the course of that nearly 30 years I've experimented with most anything you could possibly make cables with. In fact, the previous version of my cables (the Taos) used a copper/nickel alloy wire. So I don't know where this statement of yours is coming from.
   
  Quote: 





> Lastly, I don't wish to mess with nobody business, but I think your view of audiophile cables is a shame; with your knowledge you could perhaps make some really good cables


 
   
  I believe I already do.
   
  Quote: 





> If I had your knowledge and means I would be experimenting night and day with all kind of metals, combinations, approaches etc..  trying to make the best cables I could.


 
   
  See the last two above.
   
  Quote: 





> anyway, I hope I'm not being too importunate here


 
   
  Not at all. But I do wonder where some of your notions are coming from.
   
  se


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## Prog Rock Man

This thread should be renamed to what is the subjective and objective difference between a cable?
   
  What we do know is that subjective differences do not match objective ones. Though people tend to report silver cables as brighter than copper ones, that is not always the case.
   
  I think that subjective differences are far too often presented as objective as in 'I heard it, therefore it is the case'.
   
  Where Steve stands out from the crowd is that he recognises that objectively he can make a cable which may or may not have certain sound quality properties, but in the end it is the subjective impression of those qualities that really makes the difference to sound quality.


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## Steve Eddy

Quote:  





> Where Steve stands out from the crowd is that he recognises that objectively he can make a cable which may or may not have certain sound quality properties, but in the end it is the subjective impression of those qualities that really makes the difference to sound quality.


 

 Or rather, in the end, it is only the subjective impression that has any real meaning to us. If the ultimate goal is the pleasure and enjoyment we get from listening to reproduced music, what other meaningful metric is there but our own individual subjective impressions?
   
  Or as Robert Pirsig put it, "The test of the machine is the satisfaction it gives you. There isn't any other test. If the machine produces tranquility it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed."
   
  If I stand out it's simply that I'm perfectly content with my own subjective impressions whatever may be behind them (i.e. placebo and other biases) and never attempt to pass my subjective impressions off as anything more than that.
   
  se


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## WNBC

You are right, people over-generalize in these forums.  His or her experience is applied to all scenarios.  Most of us take it with a grain of salt and recognize that we may have different rigs.  I also have read the brightness opinions about silver cables but I still may try them one day just to formulate my own opinion and with my rig they might just be great.
   
  I came into this hobby a year ago.  I'm a biologist and work with friends who are engineers in the field of material sciences.  We all have advanced degrees, blah, blah, blah.  They all said cables don't make a difference however they never A/B'd any audio cables.  I brought that bias into this hobby but I figured I would try one anyway for schiits and giggles.  At something like $100-150 for a headphone or IC cable, it's a gamble, but I was fine with it even if it turned out to be money spent on a better looking cable rather than sonically better cable.  Was I going to gamble on say $500-1000 cables?  Nope.  Well, I gotta say, what I perceive from my cables are subtle yet welcomed improvements over stock cables.  It just makes the experience a tad more enjoyable aesthetically, comfort-wise, and sonically, for me.  Though $100 is nothing to sneeze at I don't have to convince myself that the money spent was justified by fooling myself into thinking it was something it really wasn't.  We have people that say tubes costing more than $50 cannot make a significant audible difference as well.  Wrong and naturally these same people don't A/B different tubes.  In the end, one has to be open to try new things, go into it as a skeptic and if turns out ok then great, if not then you never have to buy another aftermarket item.  If you don't want to part with your cash at the start then that's great too, cables are tweaks and ideally are purchased after the main components are in place. 
   
  In the end, I rely on suggestions from people I trust.  Try things out, be critical and honest.  I don't have any of Steve's cables but he's well-established and realizes there are a lot of other things that go into one's opinions about cables that has more to do with user's personality, headphones, amps, DACs, etc.      
   
   
  Quote: 





prog rock man said:


> This thread should be renamed to what is the subjective and objective difference between a cable?
> What we do know is that subjective differences do not match objective ones. Though people tend to report silver cables as brighter than copper ones, that is not always the case.
> I think that subjective differences are far too often presented as objective as in 'I heard it, therefore it is the case'.
> Where Steve stands out from the crowd is that he recognises that objectively he can make a cable which may or may not have certain sound quality properties, but in the end it is the subjective impression of those qualities that really makes the difference to sound quality.


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## Lenni

yeah, subjective impressions that most of time match other similar impressions on the particular item. So, all the people who experience silver to be brighter, for example, are in some kind of mass telepathic self-induced belief (or whatever the term is). Complete nonsense!
   
  It happened to me more than once. I bought some I/C’s without checking the reviews – it was an auction; I didn’t have the time nor the patience to fully check impressions; I just bought them and forgot about. once I tried them out, and observed some changes I went online to check for reviews of users who had these i/c’s, and their impressions matched exactly with mine. coincidence? ..sure
   
  I neither sell nor make cables, but what I find most bothersome is people who have not tried audiophile cable (and I mean cable in the $500+ range), and talk about them like they know everything about, and tell me that my impressions are subjective when their comments are the ones at being subjective the most. isn't it funny?
   
  To be honest I’m still not sure why Steve Eddy makes audio cables, and post what it does... may he’s just trying to kill off the competition… lol. Personally, I think he'd be better off making designer furniture or something – not audio cables... sorry
   
  Anyway, I’m not getting into another endless debate. I’m fed up with it. all I’m gonna say is that the Nordost speaker cables have transformed the sound beyond my expectation. is not all good, but it's more good than bad. In fact I’m saving for the Hiemdall range.
   
  I’m out.


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## Head Injury

Quote: 





lenni said:


> yeah, subjective impressions that most of time match other similar impressions on the particular item. So, all the people who experience silver to be brighter, for example, are in some kind of mass telepathic self-induced belief (or whatever the term is). Complete nonsense!


 

 That's not nonsense, that's social psychology.
   
  My social psychology teacher had everyone in the class close their eyes for a minute and imagine a beach. Half an hour later she asked us out of the blue to write down the first laundry detergent brand we could think up. 90% of the class said Tide. Granted that Tide is probably the most popular brand.
   
  The very thought of silver, with its shiny white and grey color, primes you for brightness. Just like copper, with its redder earthy tone, primes you for treble roll-off.


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## Steve Eddy

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *Lenni* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> I neither sell nor make cables, but what I find most bothersome is people who have not tried audiophile cable (and I mean cable in the $500+ range)...


 

 What has the price tag to do with anything?
   
  There are no end of cables out there whose price bears no particular relationship to their cost to produce. This is what happens when items are priced based on what the market will bear. So there are plenty of cables out there selling for four figures which could be profitably sold for several hundred dollars. Simply putting a higher price on something can that dramatically affect something's _perceived_ quality.
   
  Quote: 





> To be honest I’m still not sure why Steve Eddy makes audio cables, and post what it does..


 
   
  Because your rigid religious dogma confines your thinking to a rather small box.
   
  se


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## Steve Eddy

Quote: 





head injury said:


> The very thought of silver, with its shiny white and grey color, primes you for brightness. Just like copper, with its redder earthy tone, primes you for treble roll-off.


 

 And then there's vacuum tubes with their "warm" sound.
   
  se


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## liamstrain

At the very least they *do* warm hands.


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## Steve Eddy

Quote: 





liamstrain said:


> At the very least they *do* warm hands.


 

 And hearts. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  se


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