# help finding speakers for a rs-700 yamaha reciever.



## moore1041

hello everyone this will be my first post, i have been looking at both floor standing and bookshelf speakers to pair with my new amp but i am new at this and have no where to start. at the moment i have polk tsi 400's and a polk psw505 subwoofer. i think the speakers sound really harsh and lean, and the subwoofer is ok but rather boomy. so right now im just looking to replace the speakers for something less harsh and more oriented for rock/metal music and classical.  im open to any speakers as long as they are under 600 for both.  i guess i prefer warmer speakers as i have an old pair of bic venturi's and i swear they sound better than the polk floor standers, but i still want as much detail as possible without being fatiguing.


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## moore1041

i meant to say my first thread, please experienced audiophiles help me!!!


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## cel4145

Yeah. The Polk TSi series is a decent value for entry level speakers, but they are just entry level speakers. I run Ascend Acoustics CBM-170 SEs in my desktop setup. Fairly neutral frequency response with good transient response. Gives them very resolving mids. Given your budget, you might step up to the CMT-340 SEs. 

And I know what you mean. The PSW505 is a very good sub for its price, but certainly not the tightest sound. I suggest that when you get ready to look at a new sub, you research 12" subs from SVS Audio, Rythmik Audio, HSU Research, Outlaw Audio, and Power Sound Audio. Those Internet direct subwoofer companies are well known for the best price/performance values. Check out AVSs subwoofer forum to learn more.


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## moore1041

thank you for a quick response. i have come across the cmt 340's they seem to be very nice for the price, my only worry is "and i forgot to mention" my receiver has no lpf or hpf filters so the front speakers are always getting bass. that makes me think i should get floor standing speakers so that it doesn't distort or roll of the sound. but then again i really don't know. i just noticed noticed Yamaha makes floor standing speakers but i cant find any reviews on them, and also the kef q500 which i have not heard anything about but is in my price range.


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## cel4145

That's what the low pass filter on the sub is for. You match it up with the natural roll off of the speakers. So if you upgrade to a good sub, why not let it pass off the bass a little higher up?


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## moore1041

that is a good option, but not that many subs have crossovers for the front speakers that i know of. i wonder if i can find a good sub under 500-600 with a crossover... the psw505 i have has pass through but no crossover. that's rather useless.


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## cel4145

Well, the idea is that you set the low pass filter on the sub to wherever the low frequency roll off is of the speakers. So with the TSi 400s, Polk lists the -3db point as 44hz, so that would likely be around 40 to 50hz (although certainly something else outside of that range could sound better)--unfortunately the low pass filter on the PSW505 seems like it only goes to 60hz, so you can't try it lower than that to see if it's better. BTW: note that the CMT-340 SEs have a -3db of 48hz, so really their low end extension is pretty close to your TSi 400s. 

And I don't think that's common to have the high pass filter on the speaker level outputs on subs (can't think of any subs at the moment that have that). Where you find that high pass filter is on some subs that have left/right line inputs and outputs. My SVS SB-1000 has an 80hz high pass filter on the line out (that and the SVS PB-1000, both excellent subs in your budget range). But you would need an amp or receiver with pre-out/main-in connections to hook a sub up like that. The HK 3390 and 3490 have that for a receiver, and many integrated amps do. But if you were interested in replacing your receiver to be able to do something like that, might as well consider an AVR for the integrated bass management that has low and high pass filters built in for crossing over the sub.


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## moore1041

the receiver I have has pre outs and main in, I wouldn't think about replacing it for a long time it sounds excellent and according to the reviews it's a very clean amp for 500.


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## moore1041

also the sub out on the receiver is filtered so there is no lpf control on the sub either, the receiver sends out 90 hertz and lower to the sub out. i really like the receiver though i think the fact that it is so simple determines why it sounds so clean and natural. compared to the mid level denon and onkyo's ive had i like the rs700 Yamaha about 1000 times better, also its 100x2 but i think it has more power than that, it drives the polks way louder that the other avs's ive had which were around the power same rating. im guessing the reason it has no hpf or lpf is because it was designed to push larger speakers that wouldn't need any filtering. i found a speaker company called tekton design and i have yet to see one bad review from anything they have, but they are kind of unknown i think. they have a floor standing speaker called the mini lore its a single 8" driver with a 1" tweeter but its supposed to have sub woofer like bass with very good separation and detail. im just really weary spending money on anything audio now since i bought the polks i have definitely learned audio isn't always "you get what you pay for", or at least preferences vary a lot.


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## cel4145

I was looking at the wrong model. You have the Yamaha R-S700. That does seem to have a pre-out/main-in:

 

Get an SVS PB-1000 which has an 80hz high pass filter. Run the pre-out to the left/right input on the sub, then the left/right RCA output to the main in. Then you set the sub low pass filter to the 80hz to match the line out. Check out this review of the PB-1000. 

I've heard about the Tekton Mini Lore, but the PB-1000 has been measured to have linear bass extension down under 20hz :biggrin:


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## moore1041

that sub looks great! i think i will get that after i purchase the front speakers, they bother me the most lol. i was thinking of getting a tube amp like this http://schiit.com/products/lyr to put between the amp and the sub to power the headphones and i think it would make the speakers sound better as it has a main out rca. i will be needing lots of rca cables. the only thing i have to figure out now is if i should get the mini lores or spend the extra and get the full sized lores. im still not 100% sure about that tekton company either they don't seem to have many reviews but the few reviews have very good ratings. the extra 400 dollars is quite allot for the gold tweeter and a 2 inch bigger driver though....


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## moore1041

i just noticed that the bottom of the page on that sub review it says audiophiles would prefer the 12 inch sealed model better, it had tighter bass...? i looked it up and its the same price so idk i guess its the same amp with a 12 inch speaker and its sealed. maybe it wouldn't get as loud?


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## cel4145

I own the SVS SB-1000, the compact sealed version. It has slightly better SQ, from what I understand. However, it has a good bit less max output than the PB-1000, and starts to roll off around the mid-20hz range in the low frequency extension. I use it in my computer desktop setup (see my sig), and it works great for bass in a small room if you aren't trying to blast the room with bass (but gets fairly loud). However, my understanding is that the PB-1000 is no slouch in SQ. It would definitely be an upgrade over the Polk PSW505. So how big is your room and how loud do you like to listen? That says a lot about whether or not you need the more powerful sub or not. Also, know that the SVS subs are considered by many to be equal or better to subs that are twice the price MSRP at BestBuy and places like that. So the quality is definitely there. See this review which compares the SB-1000 and PB-1000: http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/speaker-subwoofer-reviews/66069-svs-pb1000-sb1000-subwoofer-review.html

If you are going to use the 80hz crossover, what's the point of the Tekton speakers? You can buy monitors that have say a -3db low end point in the 50 to 60hz range, and they'll work just fine because the sub is taking over starting at 80hz. 

Your Yamaha has a Zone 2 out. That's another way to plug in the LYR. Or, you might try my configuration. I run my ODAC to my Asgard 2, then run the pre-amp out from the Asgard to my SB-1000, and then run the output from the sub to the main-in on my HK 3390, bypassing the pre-amp in the HK completely. I like the Asgard 2 pre-amp better than the HK. Nice to just control the speaker/sub volume from the Asgard volume on my desk. The HK 3390 sits further out of reach because all I have to do is turn it on and off when I need it.


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## moore1041

i think the 505 has enough loudness even though it doesn't play loud on low frequencies. i do like textured bass and i think im willing to sacrifice the loudness for better sound. if i end up getting the lore or m lore i think i will leave the crossover off and just use the sub out so i can make it simple to plug in the headphone amp, apparently the lores go down to 35ish hertz so it would be nice to have the sub to back up the speakers still. would the sealed box go as low as the ported though?


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## moore1041

i do listen to music fairly loud though...


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## cel4145

SVS has measurements of their subs that appear to be accurate. You can see the graphs through links on their product pages. The PB-1000 definitely extends lower. Whether you need that extra extension or not for rock, metal, and classical is doubtful unless you listen to organ music. 

My understanding is that the Tektons are popular because of their high sensitivity. I'm fan of using a crossover with a good sub for smoother integration of the sub with the speakers. If you want to be able to play the Tektons really loud, then PB-1000 probably makes more sense because of its additional SPL over the SB-1000. Plus, when you integrate a sub with speakers at a higher crossover, it tends to take some of the pressure off a receiver (and the speakers) to produce those lower bass frequencies. But I have not heard the Tektons, so I don't know enough about them. If you haven't been unhappy with the Polks to produce the amount of volume you need, there are plenty of other speakers to explore as long as you are getting a good sub to pick up the lowest frequencies.


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## moore1041

so i guess the tektons are just a novelty thing it seems like, the arx a5 seems to have better reviews and they even said they sound better than the lore for 350 cheaper. the polks definitely get loud they just sound really screechy and horrible when they are loud, and when they are turned down there is no detail. i think the tweeter is the fault there. i have tried bi amping them and it didn't help also. i have 20 year old pair of bic DV52si's and they sound so much more natural and more detailed than the polks for whatever reason. i haven't read that much about the arx a5 but so far it looks like my best choice, i just hope that crazy polar magnetic tweeter works as good as they say lol. im still crossed between the subs, i listen to mostly rock and acoustic but i love deep bass for movies as well. i think i would rather have quality but then again i don't know if the sealed sub would be good paired with tower speakers like you said because it doesn't output as much to match the difference also the towers should be able to handle things down to 50 hertz and then the sub can handle the low low parts so i guess i would be better off with the ported sub.


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## cel4145

Arx definitely have a good reputation. They and Ascend Acoustics are direct competitors in the market. The other brand I'd look at is the EMP Teks.


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## moore1041

well the arx apparently has made in china drivers, so idk if i can stomach that. i found these  http://www.htd.com/Products/level-three-speakers/Level-THREE-Tower-Speakers  but i haven't found any reviews on them yet. i think i want those planar tweeters though they seem to all sound less harsh.


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## cel4145

It's _very, very difficult_ now to find home audio speakers where at least some of the components are not made in China. I'm sure your Polk equipment all has some Chinese made components (if not completely manufactured in China). Would bet that those HTDs do, too. If that's a requirement for you, good luck. I think you'll have a very hard time finding some good speakers. 

Whether or not the tweeters sound harsh has more to do with the quality of the particular tweeter and the internal crossover implementation. For instance, both B&W and Paradigm use dome tweeters in their very high end speaker lines costing several thousand a pair (in fact, I think they use domes in all their speakers). The Sees tweeters used in NHT speakers and with the Ascend Acoustics speakers you were looking at are noted for being non-fatiguing and not harsh. So I recommend worrying more about how reviewers say the speaker sound rather than trying to generalize in such a broad way. Ironically, note that, according to that product page, the HTD Level Threes are not available because of a tweeter problem.


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## moore1041

yeah i guess i have to be less biased. although i think the lores are all American made, i might just have to get those still. i did notice the htd tweeter problem, considering i listen to music loud that definitely wouldn't be a good idea then to get htd. i have also noticed with the polks that they sound allot better with more open acoustic music but they fail at playing fast paced rock or anything with dominant treble, is that a common speaker layout, being good with a certain type of music? because i would be much better of with a speaker that was meant to play rock. in you opinion would i be happier with the lore or the nht or ascend acoustics or something else? i just look at the lores and think they would fair well with rock but i have no idea. i do prefer a warmer sound but that might be because of the music i listen to and the fact that the polks have been killing my ears lol.


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## cel4145

Well, Steve Guttenberg says that the Tekton M-Lore woofers are American and the tweeters are European. Of course you never know where the rest of it is made. 

Anyway, since I'm sitting here listening to my CBM-170 SEs, I'll encourage you again to look into the CMT-340 SEs again. The CMT-340s have dual 6.5" drivers. This gives them 264 sq inches of surface area to generate mid bass, as opposed to the 201 inches of the 8" drivers of the Tektons. All other things being equal, more cone area means easier to create bass. Also, the Tekton M-Lore claims 38hz on their website, but they don't give a +/-3db rating. So they could be -10db down by 38hz. For example, Polk advertises your TSi400s as 34-25KHz . But if you look at their website, the -3db rating is 44hz. There may not be useable output by 34hz with them, or at 38hz with the Tekton M-Lores. 

Dave Fabrikant of Ascend Acoustics, the owner and designer, focuses a lot of attentions in mids in his designs and his speakers are very neutral in frequency response--so not warm, but neutral. The CBM-170 SEs I own have better transient response out of the driver than other bookshelves I have heard in this price range, making guitar sound great and giving them a tight midbass response. They remind me of my Grado headphones (but without the emphasized highs). I understand that the CMT-340s have a slightly better driver than the 170s (so even better sound out of them in this regard). When I listen to Kasabian's Underdog on some speakers, the guitar distortion sounds very congested. Same with a song like the Silversun Pickups Panic Switch. The Ascends do well with that guitar sound because of the transient response. When I first got these, I was coming from Energy Veritas V 5.1s which have a bit of a bright sound. At first, the CBM-170 SEs sounded a bit mid heavy. But now that I have adjusted to them, I go back to the V5.1s and I really nice how bright they were and how lacking the mids were. 

You might go to the Ascend Acoustic forums and ask if anyone has upgraded from the TSi400s/Monitor 60 (same speaker as yours/different enclosure aesthetics).


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## moore1041

that's a good idea, they should have a very detailed explanation of the changes. thanks for all the help! ill be sure to post a review when i get the speakers. one more thing, have you heard of epik?  they have an awfully promising sub for under 500, http://www.epiksubwoofers.com/legend.html  it seems like it would be loud, and being that its sealed i guess it would sound good.


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## cel4145

I considered buying one of their subs at one time, too. They do seem like good subs. However, about a year or so ago, Epik stopped manufacturing their subs. Before that, they were plagued with bad amplifier problems, and customer service was not very good. I wouldn't buy from them even if they came out with a new product. 

The major (reliable) Internet direct subwoofer vendors are SVS Audio, Rythmik Audio, HSU Research, Outlaw Audio, and Power Sound Audio (and also Chase Home Theater, but their subs are not a good choice for you because they require extensive EQ knowledge). I've own CHT, Outlaw, and SVS subs, and based on everything I've read, all of those subwoofer manufacturers make excellent products. They are comparable or better in price/performance to subs costing twice as much MSRP at BestBuy. 

However, in your budget range, I'm pretty sure that the SVS is the only one with the line out/high pass filter capability. I think Rythmik has it on their higher end models, but they start at around $900. SVS also has probably the best combination of warranty and trade up program of all of them. Their subs also have DSP with built in limiters. You CANNOT over drive the their subs, and the sub frequency response is ruler flat for all of their subs (because of the DSP). 

Here's two very detailed reviews of SVS subs (each contains lots of measurements) by Audioholics, who is acknowledged to be the best for subwoofer reviews over at the AVS subwoofer forum (if you want to learn about subs, use that forum):

http://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer-reviews/sb12-nsd-subwoofer
http://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer-reviews/pb12-nsd

Then here's an S&V review of the PB-1000: http://www.soundandvision.com/content/review-svs-pb-1000-subwoofer (not sure if I shared this). Here's a detailed amateur review: http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/speaker-subwoofer-reviews/66069-svs-pb1000-sb1000-subwoofer-review.html


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## moore1041

well i ended up buying the arx a5's. they came in a few days ago. i dont even know where to start. the speaker cover broke within a day, the speaker is coming apart at the seams at the top of one. my initial impressions were really bad of the sound to, it actually reminded me allot of the polk's. i spent two days looking up speaker placement with no luck until today when i figured out it was my desk that made everything horrible. i moved the desk two and a half feet from the wall and put the speakers out in front of the desk about three and a half feet from the back wall and 2 and a half from the side walls. its a 16x12 room. when i stepped back, then they came to life. they still sound harsh at times though so im hoping more use will warm them up.


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## moore1041

also im wondering how much a external dac would benefit, im using a 3.5mm cable to connect the computer to the amps rca's. that can't be that great of a sound to begin with but doesn't spdif transfer to a dac and improve everything before it gets to the amp?


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