# DENAFRIPS 'ARES' R2R discrete ladder DAC - close up view



## PitBul34

Hi. I've got this gorgeous sounded Denafrips 'Ares' R2R Ladder DAC! IMO, it sounds better then double priced Holo Audio 'Spring' R2R DAC. Just take a look inside this beautiful device:
  

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

  
 Some videos taked by my mobile phone - LOOK!


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## Tekk83

Any impressions of this vs other dacs like gumby or yggy or something from audio gd? Really tempting to pick one up to try at this price.


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## T Bone

As a Holo Spring DAC owner, I am subscribing to this thread and see where this DAC goes.  This should be interesting.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
 Where can I find more information?  I Googled the product name and just got a few hits on a Russian site.  I don't see anything that looks like a manufacturers page.


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## rudra

https://world.taobao.com/item/16104421599.htm?spm=a312a.7700714.0.0.wB9EQf#detail


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## b0bb

Manufacturer page: http://www.denafrips.com/store/p1/DAC-68_R2R_%E7%89%B9%E5%88%A5%E7%89%88.html
  
 Someone is selling this on audiogon
 https://www.audiogon.com/listings/da-converters-denafrips-dac-68-r2r-new-2017-01-04-digital-402
  
  
 Does not say if the R2R is compensated like the HOLO, second shorter row of resistors next to the main resistor chain suggests that it is a compensated implementation.
  
 Translated specs.
*Features*

Taiwan R2R Special Edition, 0.01% precision discrete chip resistors sold worldwide . (And X Bao see the DAC 68 is different ESS9016 chip Oh)
With XMOS's new XU208 series receiver, it supports 18-bit / 384kHz digital audio decoding, support for master-level music playback, non-synchronous USB input, full asynchronous data communication, and exclusive driver with USB connection. Program , to achieve the most advanced digital transmission decoding capabilities, support for Mac, Linux, Windows operating system
Transformer using the highest specifications O-type oxygen-free copper transformer , no edges and corners, uniform magnetic field distribution, low leakage magnetic flux, low DC impedance, to mention sound quality alcohol thickness
Automatically adjust the DAC chip according to the input signal the most appropriate sampling rate, the use of ultra-low JITTER digital receiver chip AK4118, providing excellent stability and jitter control
Self- developed 18bit DAC conversion module , R2RLadder design architecture, the true full-balanced design. The new design and development of the 32Bit digital filter to 16 X Over Sampling mode of work, each filter with 32bit input resolution, can greatly increase the dynamic contrast, analysis and more natural and delicate sound
Full digital audio input interface, support the top high-definition audio decoding playback output
Supports 32-bit audio of 44.1, 48, 88.2, 96, 176.4, 192, 352.8 and 384 kHz and DSD decoding of 2.822, 3.072, 5.644 and 6.144 MHz
Digital input with a group of Toslink optical fiber, a coaxial coaxial, and a group of USB digital interface input
The analog output has a set of RCAs and a set of balanced XLRs
  
*Technical indicators*
 Voltage: 115 / 230v 50/60 Hz
 Frequency response: 0-70KHz (-3dB)
 Distortion: <0.0015% (measured, the actual performance is higher than the measured indicators)
 Signal to noise ratio: 115dB (RCA), 114dB (XLR)
 Dynamic range:> 119dB (RCA),> 120dB (XLR)
 Crosstalk parameters:   ≤-124dB (RCA), ≤130dB (XLR)
 Power consumption: <30W
 Balanced XLR Output Level: 4.4V (+/- 10%) V RMS (1KHz)
 Unbalanced RCA Output Level: 2.2V (+/- 10%) V RMS (1KHz)
 USB input
 PCM format support: 16-32bit 44.1,48,88.2,96,176.4,192,352.8,384Khz
 DSD Format: NATIVE DSD64, DSD128, DSD256
 Coaxial, optical input
 PCM format: 16-24Bit 44.1,48,88.2,96,176.4,192,352.8,384Khz
 DSD format: DSD64
 Machine size:
 215 * 230 * 45mm
 Machine weight: 3.5kg


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## PitBul34

t bone said:


> I don't see anything that looks like a manufacturers page.


 
 https://www.facebook.com/Denafrips
  
 Some other tests. DSD test:
  

  
 USB test


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## PitBul34

Denafrips 'Ares' on Ebay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/252689559326


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## T Bone

@PitBul34 - are you affiliated with the manufacturer in any way?


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## PitBul34

No. My name is Mikhail and I'm old audiophile from Russia. I'm big vinyl fan (here is my profile on Ebay: http://www.ebay.com/usr/pitbul34) and also i like hi-res digital audio. I'm former Holo Spring R2R DAC owner:
  

  
 I've got Denafrips 'Ares' at my own risk from Ebay (coz there are no reviews on internet) and it's amazing DAC! I've sold my Holo Spring immediatelly. I put some photos and videos on Internet and share my opinion and information with people.


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## T Bone

pitbul34 said:


> No. My name is Mikhail and I'm old audiophile from Russia. I'm big vinyl fan (here is my profile on Ebay: http://www.ebay.com/usr/pitbul34) and also i like hi-res digital audio. I'm former Holo Spring R2R DAC owner:
> 
> I've got Denafrips 'Ares' at my own risk from Ebay (coz there are no reviews on internet) and it's amazing DAC! I've sold my Holo Spring immediatelly. I put some photos and videos on Internet and share my opinion and information with people.


 
  
 Thanks for sharing Mikhail!  
  
 That's a nice setup you have there.  I see the Spring buried in there.  
 I love tube gear too.  I have a dedicated vinyl rig with a tube preamp and a tube amplifier.
  
 Which "level" Spring did you buy?  I have a level one.  So I am assuming that you bought the Denafrips while you still owned the Spring.  Is that right?  If so, were you able to compare the two "head-to-head"?   I am curious to hear your opinions of what the Denafrips did better than the Holo.  
 It certainly is priced attractively.


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## PitBul34

Thank you, T Bone.
  
 > I love tube gear too
  
 Me too. All my tube gear are handcrafted. Amp based on US RCA Radiotron Type 245 triodes in globe shape, british 4 volt triode Cossor 41-MTL as drivers and german Telefunken RGN1064 as rectifiers. Preamp use british 2 volt triodes G.E.C. P2. Headphone amp for my Sennheiser HD800 use the same type of 2v british triodes. Phono stage amp made of british EF86 as drivers and russian gold 6Э6П-ДР tubes in output stage. I use Thorens TD160 Super turntable armed by Audiocraft AC-3000 unipivot tonearm and Transfiguration Temper Supreme & Ortofon Rohmann MC cartridges. MC-transformer is Technics Amorphous SH-305MC. Teac VRDS 10 as a digital CD-source. My digital gear right now: Soundaware D100PRO Deluxe 'digital turntable' and Denafrips Ares R2R Ladder DAC. AC from russian OXB-team: www.10hz.ru
  
 > Which "level" Spring did you buy?
  
 Lev 1
  
 > So I am assuming that you bought the Denafrips while you still owned the Spring.
  
 No, it was sold one week before i've received Denafrips, but i remember Holo sound.
  
 > I am curious to hear your opinions of what the Denafrips did better than the Holo.
  
 It's just my opinion. If you like  Holo - it's good!


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## rudra

@PitBul34 can you advise if the usb input can play native DSD or DoP. When I asked the good folks at Denafrips they said that DAC68 is using Dop standard for DSD 
  
I don't want to convert my existing DSD material to DoP. 
  
Thanks!


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## Energy

Kevin Gilmore believes their power section is really goofy. Too many capacitors. Imagine if one shorts. Seems like they op to using many smaller ones to reduce chassis size.
  
 Nonetheless, I wonder how the higher line Denafrips DAC-1PRO DSD or Denafrips DAC 8PRO2 DSD performs.


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## PitBul34

rudra said:


> @PitBul34 can you advise if the usb input can play native DSD or DoP. When I asked the good folks at Denafrips they said that DAC68 is using Dop standard for DSD
> 
> I don't want to convert my existing DSD material to DoP.
> 
> Thanks!


 

 Yes, it can play native DSD over USB, but first you must download and install DSD-ASIO driver from manufacturer website (for Windows PC). Next step - select DSD-ASIO output in your software player. Denafrips 'Ares' supported PCM 24-192 and DSD64 (in DoP mode) over coaxial and optical interfaces. Ares similar to DAC68 R2R, but Ares has additional coaxial and optical inputs.


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## PitBul34

energy said:


> Seems like they op to using many smaller ones to reduce chassis size.
> 
> Nonetheless, I wonder how the higher line Denafrips DAC-1PRO DSD or Denafrips DAC 8PRO2 DSD performs.


 
  

  
*I bought DAC-8PRO2 R2R too*, it's already shipped from Taiwan:
  



  
*Bye Bye Holo 'Spring' - you've lost this battle *


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## PitBul34

Denafrips 'Ares' R2R Ladder DAC & Fostex 208EZ dynamic heads.
  
 Test #009. Ellington 'The Gal from Joe's'
  

  
  
 Denafrips 'Ares' R2R Ladder DAC & Fostex 208EZ dynamic heads.
  
 Test #010. Einstürzende Neubauten 'Selbstportrait mit Kater'
  

  
 Fostex 208EZ:


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## PitBul34

Holy Grail - DAC-68 R2R $500


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## rafabro

energy said:


> Kevin Gilmore believes their power section is really goofy. Too many capacitors. Imagine if one shorts. Seems like they op to using many smaller ones to reduce chassis size.
> 
> Nonetheless, I wonder how the higher line Denafrips DAC-1PRO DSD or Denafrips DAC 8PRO2 DSD performs.


 
 Many small capacitors is a advantage neither disadvantage.
 1. They charge and discharge faster then one single equivalent
 2. Summarized impedance (ESR) is much smaller then single, big capacitor.
  
 Look at the Gryphon Kalliope DAC..


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## rudra

pitbul34 said:


> Yes, it can play native DSD over USB, but first you must download and install DSD-ASIO driver from manufacturer website (for Windows PC). Next step - select DSD-ASIO output in your software player. Denafrips 'Ares' supported PCM 24-192 and DSD64 (in DoP mode) over coaxial and optical interfaces. Ares similar to DAC68 R2R, but Ares has additional coaxial and optical inputs.


 
 Thanks for chiming in @PitBul34
  
 I am not sure if it is language or it is lost in translation .I asked the same question to the guys in Denafrips and their response was "_When __through USB, __our Dac uses DoP standard. __If you prefer ASIO than Dop, the DAC-68 R2R maybe not fit to your preference. "_
  
_Looking forward to your review/opinion of the _*DAC**-8PRO**2 R2R*


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## Energy

pitbul34 said:


> Holy Grail - DAC-68 R2R $500


 
  
 So you bought the DAC-68 R2R & DAC-8PRO2 R2R?
  
 Would be nice if you could compare the later to the Holo Audio Spring. I've been meaning to upgrade my R2R DAC and the Denafrips looks more like the Metrum Pavane Transient modules.
  


rafabro said:


> Many small capacitors is a advantage neither disadvantage.
> 1. They charge and discharge faster then one single equivalent
> 2. Summarized impedance (ESR) is much smaller then single, big capacitor.
> 
> Look at the Gryphon Kalliope DAC..


 
  
 Agreed. They have their benefits. I was speaking from the standpoint on if one were to break.
  
 --
  
 I've contacted Denafrips. May be getting myself a DAC-8PRO2 R2R for review soon. Seems like their reference DAC-1PRO R2R has too many revisions and isn't finalized yet.


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## PitBul34

rudra said:


> Thanks for chiming in @PitBul34
> 
> I am not sure if it is language or it is lost in translation .I asked the same question to the guys in Denafrips and their response was "_When __through USB, __our Dac uses DoP standard. __If you prefer ASIO than Dop, the DAC-68 R2R maybe not fit to your preference. "_


 
 Denafrips 'Ares' can do it. USB digital audio interface use the XMOS latest series chip. I can take a video, if you need (i use Foobar2000 as a software player on my PC). Some additional features aren't documented, f.e. optical interface can do PCM 192k (officially 96k only).


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## PitBul34

energy said:


> So you bought the DAC-68 R2R & DAC-8PRO2 R2R?


 
  
 No, Denafrips 'Ares' (in my hand)  & DAC-8PRO2 R2R (on the way to me).
  


> Would be nice if you could compare the later to the Holo Audio Spring. I've been meaning to upgrade my R2R DAC and the Denafrips looks more like the Metrum Pavane Transient modules.


 
  
 Ok, i'll do it when DAC-8PRO2 comes. About Metrum. Look at this pic, there is a similar bunch of a small caps:


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## Energy

pitbul34 said:


> No, Denafrips 'Ares' (in my hand)  & DAC-8PRO2 R2R (on the way to me).
> 
> 
> Ok, i'll do it when DAC-8PRO2 comes. About Metrum.


 
  
 I see. So you're a former owner of the Holo Audio Spring, you've sold it prior to receiving the "Ares" but still recall the sound the Spring gave.
  
 How long have you had the Spring for? I've been in this hobby for a long time coming and I can't safely state that I can remember a sound by a given equipment, except for headphones. For example, HD800's having a treble rise, clinical sounding, and low bass energy. Personally I have a Holo Audio Spring in hand and plan to compare it to the DAC-8PRO2 R2R.
  
 You say you prefer the cheaper Ares over the Spring? If that's the case then surely the DAC-8PRO2 R2R will be miles ahead.
  
 That'll be strange as the Spring is not too far from Metrum Pavane. If this is the case, the DAC-8PRO2 R2R will be on similar levels with the Pavane for much, much cheaper.
  
 How much did you get your DAC-8PRO2 R2R for?


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## PitBul34

energy said:


> I see. So you're a former owner of the Holo Audio Spring, you've sold it prior to receiving the "Ares" but still recall the sound the Spring gave.
> 
> How long have you had the Spring for? I've been in this hobby for a long time coming and I can't safely state that I can remember a sound by a given equipment, except for headphones. For example, HD800's having a treble rise, clinical sounding, and low bass energy. Personally I have a Holo Audio Spring in hand and plan to compare it to the DAC-8PRO2 R2R.


 
  
 ~1 month and i sold it. I received Ares a week later. Holo was the first R2R discrete ladder DAC i've ever heard. So, i remember the sound very well.
  
  


> You say you prefer the cheaper Ares over the Spring? If that's the case then surely the DAC-8PRO2 R2R will be miles ahead.


 
  
 Ares armed by 2x R2R ladder, DAC-8PRO2 - 4x R2R ladder. Will see.
  


> How much did you get your DAC-8PRO2 R2R for?


 
  

    $1500 USD for DAC-8PRO2 (on the way from Taiwan)
 $700 USD for Ares (in my hands)
 $1180 USD for Holo Spring (sold)
  
 and $799 for Oppo Sonica (on the way from US)


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## kevin gilmore

I don't like that many caps together from a reliability standpoint. If one decides to cause trouble, very hard to figure out which one. But clearly the ESR is going to be lower for a bunch of small caps vs a couple of big caps.
  
 I do know someone in Iceland that just bought an ares. will be interesting to see their review.
  
 I expect to see a bunch of under $1k R2R dacs on the market soon


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## PitBul34

kevin gilmore said:


> If one decides to cause trouble, very hard to figure out which one. But clearly the ESR is going to be lower for a bunch of small caps vs a couple of big caps.


 
  
 You're right !
  
  


> I do know someone in Iceland that just bought an ares. will be interesting to see their review.


 
  
 Yes, very interesting too. Please provide his review if possible.
  


> I expect to see a bunch of under $1k R2R dacs on the market soon


 
  
 Have you seen the Audio-GD 'Singularity 19' R2R discrete ladder DAC?


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## Energy

pitbul34 said:


> ~1 month and i sold it. I received Ares a week later. Holo was the first R2R discrete ladder DAC i've ever heard. So, i remember the sound very well.
> 
> Ares armed by 2x R2R ladder, DAC-8PRO2 - 4x R2R ladder. Will see.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I see. Were you using it through the USB input? NOS or OS? For me on I2S it sounds exquisite.
  
 I'm going to make an order for the DAC-8PRO2 after you receive yours and can comment on the sound quality. ETA?
  
 I'll do a comparison of it to the Metrum Pavane and Holo Audio Spring. The black anodizing and red led's got me otherwise I don't think I would be giving it this much of an effort.


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## PitBul34

energy said:


> I see. Were you using it through the USB input? NOS or OS? For me on I2S it sounds exquisite.


 
 I prefer NOS for Holo, but Ares sounds much better for me.
  
 BTW, Ares has USB input, but does not I2S. DAC-8PRO2 has I2S input, but does not USB.


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## PitBul34

Added some new Ares videos.
  
 Denafrips 'Ares' R2R Ladder DAC & Fostex 208EZ dynamic heads test 011

  
  
 Denafrips 'Ares' R2R Ladder DAC native DSD over USB test 012

  
  
 Denafrips 'Ares' R2R Ladder DAC & Teac VRDS10 as CD-source test 013


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## hyperdanny

rudra said:


> Thanks for chiming in @PitBul34
> 
> I am not sure if it is language or it is lost in translation .I asked the same question to the guys in Denafrips and their response was "_When __through USB, __our Dac uses DoP standard. __If you prefer ASIO than Dop, the DAC-68 R2R maybe not fit to your preference. "_
> 
> _Looking forward to your review/opinion of the _*DAC**-8PRO**2 R2R*


 

 me. too.
 It looks very very interesting...


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## rudra

@PitBul34 the usb connection in DAC68  bus powered or supplied from internal power supply.


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## Energy

A cool idea.
  
 Denafrips DAC-8PRO2 R2R *+* Audiobyte Hydra Z.
  
 A person could connect the 5V/1A Output from the Power Supply Center to the Hydra Z.
 No need to spend extra money on the ZPM power unit. Then again.. For the money a person can just get a Singxer SU-1 for cheaper.
  
 I just thought the black enclosure and red led's from both unit would look fairly nice. I thought about it, but my wallet couldn't.


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## PitBul34

rudra said:


> @PitBul34 the usb connection in DAC68  bus powered or supplied from internal power supply.


 
 Don't really know. I have Ares. You can ask guys related to manufacturer at facebook: https://www.facebook.com/audio.broker/ (this link provided by www.denafrips.com).
  
 I hope, DAC68 use the same latest XMOS, xCORE - 200 series for USB digital interface "which doubles in processing MIPS achieving 1000 MIPS as compared to the old XMOS chip that was commonly used". But DAC68 is a bit cheaper then Ares, so, I'm not sure.


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## hyperdanny

the DAC8pro2 has an I2S input in HDMI connection..does anybody know if it is PS Audio pin-compatible? (like the new Matrix pro and, alas, unlike my Gustard X-20).. I tried the website with google translate and couldn't find mention of it.
 thia could be a game changer for me.


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## Energy

hyperdanny said:


> the DAC8pro2 has an I2S input in HDMI connection..does anybody know if it is PS Audio pin-compatible? (like the new Matrix pro and, alas, unlike my Gustard X-20).. I tried the website with google translate and couldn't find mention of it.
> thia could be a game changer for me.


 
  
 I'll be using it via I2S input through a Singxer SU-1. I'll let you know what they inform me with in terms of pin configuration.


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## hyperdanny

energy said:


> I'll be using it via I2S input through a Singxer SU-1. I'll let you know what they inform me with in terms of pin configuration.


 
 thanks very much!


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## hyperdanny

anyway..I just so dig the name--"Denafrips"..how the chinese come up with this stuff?
 I have a Denafrips..oh , really? cool, does it work better than the Vitamix?


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## Energy

hyperdanny said:


> anyway..I just so dig the name--"Denafrips"..how the chinese come up with this stuff?
> I have a Denafrips..oh , really? cool, does it work better than the Vitamix?


 
  
 Haha I laughed at this one too.
  
 ---
  
 I did some reading. Seems as though they have an even higher up flagship than the DAC-1PRO R2R called the Terminator.
  
 The DAC-1PRO R2R's final revision is not completed but based on what they tell me, although it has the same or similar internal structure as the DAC-8PRO2 R2R, but made with better materials. Both however still use 0.01% 10PPM discrete resistors.
  
 The Terminator is said to use 0.005% resistors which like the Seokris R2R, helps with it's SNR and THD.
  
-124dB & Distortion: 0.0007% _(Terminator)_ *versus* -115dB & Distortion: 0.001% _(DAC-8PRO2)_
  
 The Terminator features a 26bit module rather than the 25bit located on the DAC-8PRO2 & DAC-1PRO
  
_I still feel as though I'll prefer in the Holo Audio Spring in the end though as it's NOS and it's design has surprisingly good measurements for an R2R Ladder._


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## rudra

@Energy what level is you holo dac.


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## Energy

rudra said:


> @Energy what level is you holo dac.


 
  
 I've had Level 1 & 2. Have tried Level 3 next to them as well. They all sound pretty much the same with the Level 3 "KTE" being a tad quicker in transients and more microdetail, but very subtle.
  
 I honestly could not tell a difference between Level 1 & Level 2. After they've burned in, they sound exactly the same. This is just from my perspective though. Take it how you may.


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## PitBul34

> Both however still use 0.01% 10PPM discrete resistors
  
 Ares and DAC68 uses the same resistors, as i know (~ 250 pcs per 1x R2R Ladder)
  
 http://www.denafrips.com/store/p1/DAC-68_R2R_.html


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## sypderman88

Hi,
  
  I am currently using Audio Gd DAC 19th 10th anniversary version based on 2 x PCM1704UK.. I wonder will these DACs an upgrade ?


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## Energy

pitbul34 said:


> Ares and DAC68 uses the same resistors, as i know (~ 250 pcs per 1x R2R Ladder)
> 
> http://www.denafrips.com/store/p1/DAC-68_R2R_.html


 
  
 Definitely. Their whole line seems to use precision 0.01% resistors with the exception of the "Terminator" being 0.005%.
 All low temperature drift of 10PPM which is nice. I believe 5PPM resistors would cost too much especially if their brand was made to promote as high end gear being 'affordable'.
  
 I feel like the Ares is a great DAC to have. Even Audio-GD's Singularity 19 is only single ended with 0.1% resistors which are not as good. For the price, the Ares wins hands down.
  


sypderman88 said:


> I am currently using Audio Gd DAC 19th 10th anniversary version based on 2 x PCM1704UK.. I wonder will these DACs an upgrade ?


 
  
 Yes. The DAC 19 is not balanced so that's one improvement you'll get. PCM1704UK is an R2R DAC, but not an R2R Ladder, which works differently.
  
http://www.mother-of-tone.com/conversion.htm
  
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue65/dac.htm
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue66/dsd.htm


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## PitBul34

energy said:


> I've had Level 1 & 2. Have tried Level 3 next to them as well. They all sound pretty much the same with the Level 3 "KTE" being a tad quicker in transients and more microdetail, but very subtle.
> 
> I honestly could not tell a difference between Level 1 & Level 2. After they've burned in, they sound exactly the same. This is just from my perspective though. Take it how you may.


 
  
 There are a lot of measurements on russian DA-community forum. _**Real Holo Spring Measurements_


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## Energy

Scroll down further Michael.


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## sypderman88

ok..just bought a unit of 68 R2R to try ...


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## rudra

@sypderman88 looking forward to your feedback


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## Krit

For this price point for complete R2R dac, It would be very interesting to see some reviews of the ARES against other well established DAC. Its so tempting to buy one and try it out.


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## ToroFiestaSol

Next chinese billionaire:
  
 The one who releases a great, fully balanced NOS R2R DAC, under 2000€, with an ethernet connection and good looking casework (sober, black, no orange sides and no volume control).
  
 Next chinese billionaire, hope you're reading this.


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## Energy

torofiestasol said:


> Next chinese billionaire:
> 
> The one who releases a great, fully balanced NOS R2R DAC, under 2000€, with an ethernet connection and good looking casework (sober, black, no orange sides and no volume control).
> 
> Next chinese billionaire, hope you're reading this.




I agree with you.

Holo Audio Spring, in my opinion, has a very unpleasant color with its copper sides. It's screen is also very old school, doesn't ring high end even though it sounds great for under $2000.

Proper implementation for a volume control to not affect sound quality is another difficulty that some companies have to acess. 

Question however, but what does the eternet connection accomplish?


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## ToroFiestaSol

energy said:


> I agree with you.
> 
> Holo Audio Spring, in my opinion, has a very unpleasant color with its copper sides. It's screen is also very old school, doesn't ring high end even though it sounds great for under $2000.
> 
> ...


 
  
 For me, as I have a NAS, convenience, also I don't like USB or additional boxes (less is more, don't like to "fix" anything)
 Also, the only NOS DAC with ethernet connection is Totaldac with streamer option ($$$$)...would be nice to have an affordable, high performance NOS DAC with that connecion.
  
 EDIT: Think it this way, Holo Spring costs 1700$, and is suposed to sound best with I2S, so you need a USB to I2S interface to enjoy the DAC full potential. That means Singxer SU-1 (400$)...the Holo Spring is a 2100$ DAC if you want to enjoy the 100% of the sound quality.
 A 1700$ DAC with an ethernet connection (fully isolated, not like USB) is...a 1700$ DAC, no need to get additional boxes.


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## PitBul34

Once again - Denafrips 'Ares' R2R Ladder DAC & Teac VRDS10 as a CD digital transport - test #014


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## Krit

pitbul34 said:


> Once again - Denafrips 'Ares' R2R Ladder DAC & Teac VRDS10 as a CD digital transport - test #014





 The sound signature seems very analog like. Very smooth mid's and upper bass (not sure if its the dac or its because of your overall system sound signature).


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## PitBul34

krit said:


> The sound signature seems very analog like. Very smooth mid's and upper bass (not sure if its the dac or its because of your overall system sound signature).


 

 I think both, thank you!
  
 Electronic music, test #015:


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## PitBul34

=


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## m-i-c-k-e-y

Came across Denafrips last year while searching for a new Gustard DAC model on ShenzhenAudio and Taobao. 

They have also Headamps I believe. Hoping to have some more info on it. Especially on their updated Dac1Pro "Terminator". 

Have hopes in this company on producing on mega bang-for-the-buck components.

Will see when more reviews will come in.


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## Mr Pluto

PitBul34
  
 Can you please the describe the sound of ARES vs HOLO?
  
 P.S. I also followed Your Russian forum. Why they suspended you?


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## Mr Pluto

Also I`m new here so all welcome notes, cakes and pizzas welcome! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 I appreciate if someone can tell me how I can change the default account icon?
  
 Best regards to all fellow audiophiles!


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## PitBul34

Denafrips 'Ares' R2R Ladder DAC & heavy metal,  test #016


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## PitBul34

mr pluto said:


> PitBul34
> 
> Can you please the describe the sound of ARES vs HOLO?
> 
> P.S. I also followed Your Russian forum. Why they suspended you?


 
 Because of Denafrips is the real "killer" of many hi-priced and overpriced DACs, f.e. Holo Spring. I think, admin has been affiliated with a russian digital audio gear shop (they selling Holo Spring Ver 1 for about $2000 - http://hi-audio.ru/capy.html ) So, i think, this was the real reason why they suspended me.


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## PitBul34

Ah Hah )) China grows the price up:


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## slex

Is the analog output discrete or using opamps?


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## ephrank

Nice find OP! Very interesting DAC.
  
 Looking at the circuit board, the resistor networks looked remarkably similar to the Soekris dam1021
  
 https://soekris.com/products/audio-products/dam1021.html
  
 I wonder if they sound similar? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Also, is the balanced output of the ARES true balanced (One resistor network for the +ve signal, another network for the -ve signal). I'm asking because the dam1021 are inherently single-ended (balanced output are opamp / buffer driven, not true balanced) Thanks!


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## slex

I probably get one to connect to Jotunheim balance inputs. Good price point considering it have the latest XMOS XU208 usb interface without getting a dedicated DDC.And the O ring transformer looks cool.


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## slex

ephrank said:


> Nice find OP! Very interesting DAC.
> 
> Looking at the circuit board, the resistor networks looked remarkably similar to the Soekris dam1021
> 
> ...




According to description is a true balance design.

You have good eyes. Let see any inputs about balance discrepancy.

I just booked 1 Ares from my local dealer at a good price too.


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## Energy

The Ares probably one of the best DAC's for under $1000 right now. It can be had for cheaper on TaoBao or Aliexpress but you'll need to ask them to drop the voltage down from 230V to 115V (depending on country).
  
 A friend of mine recently let me compare my Holo Audio Spring to his Ares. After 4-5 long hours, I still prefered the Holo Audio Spring for it's more organic sound, especially in NOS mode. Both units were hooked via AES/EBU through a digital to digital converter called the Singxer SU-1. It was a close one to be honest. The Spring had a slightly wider sound stage and more depth. Both brought out incredible details. Spring had more scooped up midrange and sounded more intimate whereas the Ares was more tonally balanced. Ares had a sharper treble, but still free of digital glare. The spring was slightly lower. It depends on the person as to which sounds better to them. Both were incredible analog, however as said before, the NOS mode made the Spring sound more sweet/lush to listen to. It was more engaging. The Ares did everything well to where it sounded slightly more laid back. It depends which you like more, but again, both units were not too far from one another in performance. In the end I still found the Spring to sounds cleaner though so I had no reason to get myself an Ares.
  
 Funds are low for me right now so I cannot get Denafrips DAC-8PRO2 to compare to my Holo Audio Spring, but something tells me the Denafrips will win this time, even if it uses oversampling regardless my preference for NOS.
  
 I have a Metrum Acoustics Pavane coming in. I hope to get a higher reference Denafrips soon for further comparison.


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## slex

energy said:


> The Ares probably one of the best DAC's for under $1000 right now. It can be had for cheaper on TaoBao or Aliexpress but you'll need to ask them to drop the voltage down from 230V to 115V (depending on country).




I think i saw a red voltage switch below the casing from OP's pics.

TOTL denafrips "Terminal" dac...man this dac company is serious.


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## Energy

slex said:


> I think i saw a red voltage switch below the casing from OP's pics.
> 
> TOTL denafrips "Terminal" dac...man this dac company is serious.


 
  
 Terminator I think. You know it's serious when it has three I2S inputs haha.


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## PitBul34

slex said:


> Is the analog output discrete or using opamps?


 
  
 Some macro. First 2 photos - output stage:


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## Energy

slex said:


> I think i saw a red voltage switch below the casing from OP's pics.




If there is one, it can be toggled but the fuse needs to be changed out.

If it's a 2A fuse with the size of 5x20mm at 115V, switching to a stronger voltage of 230V, the amps needs to be half of that which is 1A. If its 115V going to 230V, you'll double the amps.

Thank you for the clear photos Michael.


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## m-i-c-k-e-y

Denafrips Terminator from Facebook
  


  
 And Vinshine Audio was chosen as official distributor for Malaysia and Singapore...


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## slex

Since its using xmos XU208 . Is there an option or even space to install I2S interface?


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## slex

m-i-c-k-e-y said:


> Denafrips Terminator from Facebook
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Yes Vineshine is my local dealer


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## PitBul34

slex said:


> Yes Vineshine is my local dealer


 
 Ares on vinshineaudio.com:


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## Energy

More photos on Terminator.


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## guymrob

Guys, this DAC is 18-bit ladder, not a true 24-bit found in Holo Springs. It doesn't have linearity compensation built-in, it requires two identical sets to this job! Moreover, it can't bypass the hardware OS, so basically it cannot do NOS. In Denafrips TW website specs can do up to DSD128 (6.114MHz), not DSD256 (11.28MHz) and not even DSD512(22.5MHz) that Holo Spring can do! Moreover the Windows USB driver is generic XMOS driver not designed by Denafrips and it can't do DSD in native mode, only in DoP. Holo Spring Windows driver are designed by Holo Springs through a third party driver manufacturer Thresycon and Microsoft signed driver that does DSD in native mode all the way to DSD512!


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## PitBul34

guymrob said:


> Guys, this DAC is 18-bit ladder, not a true 24-bit found in Holo Springs. It doesn't have linearity compensation built-in, it requires two identical sets to this job! Moreover,


 
  
 Denafrips 'Ares' data from official dealer:
     
*TECHNICAL HIGHLIGHT:*

 1. *XMOS XU208* USB Interface
 2. Ultra Low Jitter Digital Receiver AK4118
 3. *Proprietary R2R + DSD Architecture*
 Ares employees *20BIT  R2R +  6BIT DSD* (32 steps FIR Filters), *native PCM & DSD decoding* with *0.01% precision resistors*.
  
*SPECIFICATION:*
  
*DSD: *
 2.8224MHz(DSD1X) All Input
 5.6448MHz(DSD2X), 11.288MHz(DSD4X) USB Only

*PCM: *
 24bit/44.1、48、88.2、96、176.4、192、358.2(USB)、384(USB) kHz

*Output Rating: *
 RCA: 2.2(+/-10%) V RMS(1KHz)
 XLR: 4.4(+/-10%) V RMS(1KHz)

*Specification:*
 AC Power: 115/230V, 50/60Hz
 Power Consumption: ≤30W
 Frequency Response: 0-70K Hz(-3dB）
 THD+N: ≤0.002%(1KHz A-weighted)
 S/N Ratio: 115dB(RCA)、114dB(XLR)
 Dynamic Range: >119dB(RCA)、>120dB(XLR)
 Stereo Crosstalk: ≤-124dB(RCA)、≤130dB(XLR)
 Dimension: 215 *230 *45  mm
 Weight: 3.5kg
  
*WARRANTY:*
 12months from date of purchase.
  
 http://www.vinshineaudio.com/product-page/98a5976b-3b2b-4e0c-4197-01f6b04a12bd
  





> it can't bypass the hardware OS, so basically it cannot do NOS. In Denafrips TW website specs can do up to DSD128 (6.114MHz), not DSD256 (11.28MHz) and not even DSD512(22.5MHz) that Holo Spring can do!


 
  
 Some real measurements of  Holo Sring 'NOS' mode you can find here: _**Real Holo Spring Measurements_
  


> Moreover the Windows USB driver is generic XMOS driver not designed by Denafrips and it can't do DSD in native mode, only in DoP.


 
  
 Denafrips 'Ares' native DSD test:


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## Energy

Ares can't do NOS. Only their top of the line Terminator can perhaps bypass hardware OS for OS/NOS toggle.


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## guymrob

The manufacturer website stated it is 18-bit ladder DAC and can only able to do up to 5.644/6.144 (DSD128). The native DSD support is for XMOS XU208 chipset only. The driver Denafrips is a generic XMOS stereo USB driver from XMOS itself, called 'XMOS Stereo Driver', which is free to download. It only support DoP, not native DSD.

http://www.denafrips.com/store/p1/DAC-68_R2R_.html

For XMOS USB driver check this:


http://www.xmos.com/download/private/USB-Audio-2.0-Driver-for-Windows---Overview%283.34.0%29.pdf

Hope this clarifies


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## Energy

lol I noticed that too.
  
 Also in relation to Holo Audio Spring measurements. If you knew how NOS works that wouldn't matter. Continue reading the thread. I'd rather be free of filters that colorate the sound.


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## PitBul34

energy said:


> Ares can't do NOS. Only their top of the line Terminator can perhaps bypass hardware OS for OS/NOS toggle.


 
  
 Denafrips Ares (~$700) is not direct competitor of Holo Spring v1 (~$1700), howewer Ares sounds better in OS mode then Holo Spring in NOS mode, imo. The direct competitor of Holo Spring is Denafrips DAC8-PRO2 R2R armed by 4x R2R Ladders and separate power source module (~$1400). I'll tell about DAC8-PRO2 R2R sound when i'll receive it.


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## guymrob

Some real measurements of Holo Sring 'NOS' mode you can find here: **Real Holo Spring Measurements...

There's many doubts in the measurements... first they never specify what kind digital data they pump into the Holo Spring. 16bit or 24bit? Which sampling frequency?

NOS generally fare worse than OS in tern SNR, but the advantage is it remove artifacts of over sampling digital filters that cause the 'ringing'. You can read this article on NOS:


http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/metrum/3.html


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## PitBul34

guymrob said:


> The manufacturer website stated it is 18-bit ladder DAC and can only able to do up to 5.644/6.144 (DSD128).


 
 You talking about DAC-68 R2R (~$500), not Ares. Howewer, I think Denafrips should stabilize his model line as soon as possible. 3 models will be enought, imo: Ares (low segment), DAC8-PRO2 R2R (middle segment, need to be rebranded to avoid consumer confusion) & Terminator (top segment).
  


> The native DSD support is for XMOS XU208 chipset only.


 
 IMO, there is no sonic differense between DSD64 in DoP mode via good quality COX or OPT interface & DSD64 in native mode via USB interface.


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## Superdad

pitbul34 said:


> You talking about DAC-68 R2R (~$500), not Ares. Howewer, I think Denafrips should stabilize his model line as soon as possible. 3 models will be enought, imo: Ares (low segment), DAC8-PRO2 R2R (middle segment, need to be rebranded to avoid consumer confusion) & Terminator (top segment).


 
  
 It is confusing because Ares seems to be the discontinued model--not shown on the Denafrips web site at all--and DAC-68 is shown.  And DAC-68 is also listed as being able to handle DSD256.
  
 But close-up images of the boards clearly show that Ares is the higher model above the DAC-68.
  
 Is there any information available about the filters in the Ares?  Is it like most DACs where if you feed it at a high enough sample rate you effectively bypass its own digital filters? (A sort of forced NOS if fed 384KHz.) 
  
 Any USA importers yet?


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## Currawong

I'm following this DAC out of interest in R2R implementations, but there is something I want to point out about NOS:
  
 Quote:


guymrob said:


> Some real measurements of Holo Sring 'NOS' mode you can find here: **Real Holo Spring Measurements...
> 
> There's many doubts in the measurements... first they never specify what kind digital data they pump into the Holo Spring. 16bit or 24bit? Which sampling frequency?
> 
> ...


 
  
 The "ringing" you only see, as you are only supposed to, next to impulse responses and square waves, _which do not exist in music. _The whole thing about DACs sounding "digital" being caused by ringing very much appears to be completely false, but from my experience some of it _does_ appear to be the result of poor filter design and component noise, as well as timing errors in SD DACs.


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## guymrob

currawong said:


> The "ringing" you only see, as you are only supposed to, next to impulse responses and square waves, _which do not exist in music. _The whole thing about DACs sounding "digital" being caused by ringing very much appears to be completely false, but from my experience some of it _does_ appear to be the result of poor filter design and component noise, as well as timing errors in SD DACs.




Yes it does, complex harmonics in music makes up waveforms that resembles 'square wave', if ringing is caused by over-sampling digital filters, it causes a phenomenon called transient intermodulation distortion. It is difficult to measure in real life but a square wave impulse response is a good test.

https://goo.gl/images/0B2JLY


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## lukeap69

In Taobao, it seems ARES and DAC-68 are priced similarly. I have exchanged emails with Denafrips, according to them the only difference between the two is more coax and one more 'digital' input on Ares. If ARES had a BNC input, I could have purchased one. I am keeping an eye on Denafrips though. I may still decide to buy one of these for my bedroom headphone rig.


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## gunwale

how different is this compared to the new audio gd singularity 19?


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## Currawong

guymrob said:


> currawong said:
> 
> 
> > The "ringing" you only see, as you are only supposed to, next to impulse responses and square waves, _which do not exist in music. _The whole thing about DACs sounding "digital" being caused by ringing very much appears to be completely false, but from my experience some of it _does_ appear to be the result of poor filter design and component noise, as well as timing errors in SD DACs.
> ...


 

 It's the other way around. A square wave is the sum of multiple harmonics. A DSD "impulse" isn't in music either. Multiple harmonics do not sum together in music to form anything like a square wave, unless the music is clipping, which is a different issue. I think the issue you may be closest to is that of aliasing close to the Nyquist frequency, which is a filter issue. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Anyhow, whether or not a DAC can accept DSD 512 is kind of crazy IMO. There is effectively no music of that resolution that didn't start off as DXD, which is a more sane choice if you don't mind half-a-gigabyte+ per music file.


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## PitBul34

gunwale said:


> how different is this compared to the new audio gd singularity 19?


 
 Audio GD Singularity 19 use DA-M1 R2R modules with *0.1% precision resistors*:
  

  
  
 Ares has *0.01% precision resistors **on board.*


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## guymrob

currawong said:


> It's the other way around. A square wave is the sum of multiple harmonics. A DSD "impulse" isn't in music either. Multiple harmonics do not sum together in music to form anything like a square wave, unless the music is clipping, which is a different issue. I think the issue you may be closest to is that of aliasing close to the Nyquist frequency, which is a filter issue.
> 
> Anyhow, whether or not a DAC can accept DSD 512 is kind of crazy IMO. There is effectively no music of that resolution that didn't start off as DXD, which is a more sane choice if you don't mind half-a-gigabyte+ per music file.




The impulse response is the measure how high the amplitude of peak and the dispersion. If all energy is concentrated at the peak, less dispersion (ringing) occurred. This translates to better transient response and less distortion. DSD is better because it doesn't use over sampling digital filter, so it doesn't suffer from this issue. If we bypass the over sampling digital filter in PCM we can have a good impulse response but drawback is there's going to have noise, especially 44.1k which very near to the 20k audio band. DSD sampling at least 2.82MHz and above, so at that high frequency it is easy to filter with a gentle low pass filter.

To avoid PCM going to the over sampling digital filter some convert 44.1k to DSD on the fly inside the PC. Many reported it sound more 'analog' then playing back PCM directly. PS Audio DirectStream DAC is one example. Holo Spring has two option, play in NOS mode (no over sampling digital filter but higher noise ) or use the internal hardware to convert PCM to DSD256 on the fly.

But trust me, I still prefer to run in NOS mode, even in 44.1k, everything sound so natural and real. You have to listen for yourself then only you know how good it is!


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## slex

Great i will be having multibit(mimby), NOS ( Mhdt 1541A ) and coming R2R ( Ares) to compare

But all will come down to implementation and finished construction and lastly your own personal taste of music.


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## lukeap69

slex said:


> Great i will be having multibit(mimby), NOS ( Mhdt 1541A ) and coming R2R ( Ares) to compare
> 
> But all will come down to implementation and finished construction and lastly your own personal taste of music.




That would be nice! Where did you buy your Ares and how much?


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## slex

http://www.xtremeplace.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=247059.0

He does export.


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## lukeap69

slex said:


> http://www.xtremeplace.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=247059.0
> 
> He does export.




Thanks.


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## guymrob

I wish Ares can seriously offer NOS, no harm in doing it, just have an option to switch to NOS, it gives users another mode of sound. Then I consider getting it for my desktop DAC with my Sennisher HD650


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## rudra

lukeap69 said:


> That would be nice! Where did you buy your Ares and how much?


 
 You can also purchase it direct from Taiwan.


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## Energy

guymrob said:


> I wish Ares can seriously offer NOS, no harm in doing it, just have an option to switch to NOS, it gives users another mode of sound. Then I consider getting it for my desktop DAC with my Sennisher HD650




I wanted the same but realize they were all OS unless deciding to go for their Terminator model which unfortunately will be well over $4,000 most likely.

I think right now it's a give or take regarding R2R, DSD, NOS, and Linearity implementations. The Holo Audio Spring surprisingly does well on noise with SNR of -126dB for NOS. it's patented linear compensation works great too not to add it's support for DSD using an additional set of R2R ladders.

The Metrum Pavane on the other hand doesn't need to compensate on Linearity loss when it's FPGA solves this issue right off the bat by dividing up MSB (most significant bit) from the LSB (least signicant bit). The smaller signal at low level which would usually cause irregularities no longer becomes an issue. This gives the Pavane a measured SNR down to -145dB. The issue with Metrum however is that like Schiiit, it doesn't play DSD.

Considering it's one or the other at this point in time, it would be nice to see a future R2R NOS DAC that includes FPGA (for non-linearity and digital noise concerns) in which also handles DSD. Considering how Metrum Acoustics now have Transient DAC TWO modules on their new flagship the Adagio which has double the R2R ladder (2x24 bit vs 1x16 bit per module), this time with a built in FPGA (per module) for a shorter signal path, it would be a nice touch to have those ladders support DSD processing.

Perhaps Holo Audio's next DAC, the May DAC will have FPGA or some implementation that reduces digital noise further in a way where they don't need to compensate for linearity loss while keeping their support for DSD.

I have doubts Metrum will introduce DSD support anytime soon though. My guess is that they'll implement it roughly the same time other companies like Schiit feels DSD is popular enough. Right now there's not a whole lot of DSD files available.

Personally all I have is PCM files but the main reason why I ever bought into DAC's like Matrix X-Sabre and Holo Audio Spring is their support for DSD playback. It was a "Just In Case" impulse response. Now that I've owned them for months, I've realize I won't listen to DSD anytime soon thus the switch over to better PCM based R2R NOS DAC's like the Metrum Pavane. Everyone's different.


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## ToroFiestaSol

I would like to see an upgradable R2R NOS DAC, with ethernet input. Something like the PS Audio Directstream units but  NOS R2R.
 I don't like additional boxes (I2S to USB or AES to USB), and ethernet is fully isolated, so no need for fancy boxes.
  
 Also, they chinese makers should improve aesthetics, their products looks mmmm...chinese? (in the pejorative sense)
 Just think about it, good looking, fully balanced, upgradable R2R NOS DAC, without volume control and with ethernet connection, under 2000usd, that should be a winner, and believe, they CAN do it.
  
 Why ethernet? 
 For example, Holo DAC needs to use I2S to sound it's best, so you need Singxer SU-1. Holo costs 1700usd and Singxer costs 400usd, so the DAC at it's full potential costs 2100$, no 1700$.
 I'ts better to put that 400$ into the DAC with the ethernet board, and boom, new legend is born.


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## PitBul34

torofiestasol said:


> Also, they chinese makers should improve aesthetics, their products looks mmmm...chinese? (in the pejorative sense)
> Just think about it, good looking, fully balanced, upgradable R2R NOS DAC, without volume control and with ethernet connection, under 2000usd, that should be a winner, and believe, they CAN do it.


 
 What you mean 'good looking'? F.e., i like minimalistic style and simple forms. Ares looks like a Spartan and it's good looking, imo:


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## Energy

torofiestasol said:


> I would like to see an upgradable R2R NOS DAC, with ethernet input. Something like the PS Audio Directstream units but  NOS R2R.
> I don't like additional boxes (I2S to USB or AES to USB), and ethernet is fully isolated, so no need for fancy boxes.
> 
> Also, they chinese makers should improve aesthetics, their products looks mmmm...chinese? (in the pejorative sense)
> ...




I would agree with you partially due to my limited understanding.

An upgradable R2R NOS DAC would be heavenly. One with an Ethernet port as you suggested for galvanic isolation streaming, however saving money on the DDC (digital to digital converter), one still must spend on a NAS would they not?

Like if I used my MacBook Pro I could simply plug the USB into a DDC and into the DAC. The inconvienence there would be the DDC in between. However isn't a NAS an extra unit on it's own accord? Something like a MicroRendu or am I understanding it all wrong? Also even if it's isolated like how optical is, wouldn't there still be time domain issues such as jitter? Does Ethernet/streaming implementations consist of asynchronous corrections or other ways to get around these issues?


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## ToroFiestaSol

energy said:


> I would agree with you partially due to my limited understanding.
> 
> An upgradable R2R NOS DAC would be heavenly. One with an Ethernet port as you suggested for galvanic isolation streaming, however saving money on the DDC (digital to digital converter), one still must spend on a NAS would they not?
> 
> Like if I used my MacBook Pro I could simply plug the USB into a DDC and into the DAC. The inconvienence there would be the DDC in between. However isn't a NAS an extra unit on it's own accord? Something like a MicroRendu or am I understanding it all wrong? Also even if it's isolated like how optical is, wouldn't there still be time domain issues such as jitter? Does Ethernet/streaming implementations consist of asynchronous corrections or other ways to get around these issues?


 
  
 Yes, you must have a NAS or a PC with ethernet ports, but you also have like 9093409 DACs on the market with USB inputs, so variety is welcomed.
 Not everyone has a Macbook or a laptop, some people (more than what you think of, me included) have a NAS or a desktop PC.
 Ethernet provides the best isolation, so it "sounds" better than any other type of input. It's the superior one.
  


pitbul34 said:


> What you mean 'good looking'? F.e., i like minimalistic style and simple forms. Ares looks like a Spartan and it's good looking, imo:


 
  
 Regarding the looks, I was thinking of Holo with it's garish looking copper orange sides and goofy screen.
 The Ares looks good but no good enough, when I say good looking I mean something like DCS Debussy or Gryphon Kalliope to give you an example.


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## slex

rudra said:


> You can also purchase it direct from Taiwan.




Still work out est. US$60 cheaper through http://www.vinshineaudio.com


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## slex

torofiestasol said:


> Yes, you must have a NAS or a PC with ethernet ports, but you also have like 9093409 DACs on the market with USB inputs, so variety is welcomed.
> Not everyone has a Macbook or a laptop, some people (more than what you think of, me included) have a NAS or a desktop PC.
> Ethernet provides the best isolation, so it "sounds" better than any other type of input. It's the superior one.
> 
> ...




I think its size suit the dimension for schiit Jotunheim. Just slap untop of Ares. Those who have black Jotunheiem


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## abartels

torofiestasol said:


> I would like to see an upgradable R2R NOS DAC, with ethernet input. Something like the PS Audio Directstream units but  NOS R2R.
> I don't like additional boxes (I2S to USB or AES to USB), and ethernet is fully isolated, so no need for fancy boxes.
> 
> Also, they chinese makers should improve aesthetics, their products looks mmmm...chinese? (in the pejorative sense)
> ...


 
  
 You are talking about a networkplayer. So you want a networkplayer with upgradeable NOS R2R dac. Not sure if they exist.
 I can imagine you don't want aditional boxes, that is one of the reasons I did build my own networkplayer, for now NOT based on R2R, but that probably will change in the near future 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Btw, why would one want a box which converts from I2S and AES to USB?
  
 Ethernet itselve is ONLY the transport. It doesn't include some sort of audio format which directly can be imported into dac chip. So, if talking about a networkplayer (see my avatar and/or link)
 you are talking about a device which receives music files from NAS or other network source, or direct stream from internet like Tidal HIFI. You need a device which converts all this stuff into a format your dac understands, mostly I2S signals.
  
 In my case I did build it around a Raspberry Pi. There are many networkplayers available, all build around a low-computing device which directly provides the signals used by the dac chip(s).
  
 Hope this clears things up a bit 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Cheers 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Alex


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## ToroFiestaSol

abartels said:


> You are talking about a networkplayer. So you want a networkplayer with upgradeable NOS R2R dac. Not sure if they exist.
> I can imagine you don't want aditional boxes, that is one of the reasons I did build my own networkplayer, for now NOT based on R2R, but that probably will change in the near future
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Great project you have!
 Yes, that's a better explanation, my english is limited so I thank you for the detailed post.
 Yes, a NOS R2R DAC with a network player inside, something like a R2R version of the PS Audio Directstream DAC, but with chinese price 
 Of course that thing does not exist, but someone can invent it, you never know who is reading 
 I always express my "wishes" because there's always someone with a company reading the forums, so if my petition is shared and approved by more people, this hypothetic product can become a reality.


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## Energy

It sounds only a step up above optical, based on what i'm hearing. 

Optical and Ethernet according to you offers full galvanic isolation. It may offer streaming benefits, but in general it still needs to be converted to a format the DAC accepts before digital decoding. The only format is which is I2S.. 

The internal unit of whatever futuristic DAC you're wishing for must have a good converter inside converting Ethernet to I2S. The problem here is it still must go through a receiver does it not? So in general it's not much different than other formats. It may not be affected by output noise (like with optical), but it still suffers from input receiver noise & time domain errors. The converter also must have well implemented clocks prior to being sent to the R2R Ladder (or DAC chip). If this is the case already for all things, can't we just say that we wish for a better input converter in general?

Unless the Ethernet input you're talking about is actually the RJ45 Ethernet connector, then like the HDMI input standardized by PS Audio, both are I2S format that still suffers from noise & time domain errors (jitter) and needs proper conversion.

Either you rely on a quality DDC, a quality input, or a quality output. 

I'll look more into the Ethernet port for PS Audio DirectStream and see what I find.


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## Thenewguy007

slex said:


> Great i will be having multibit(mimby), NOS ( Mhdt 1541A ) and coming R2R ( Ares) to compare
> 
> But all will come down to implementation and finished construction and lastly your own personal taste of music.




I definitely would like to hear your comparison when you get them all in the same room!


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## PitBul34

Heavy metal test #018


----------



## rudra

slex said:


> Still work out est. US$60 cheaper through http://www.vinshineaudio.com




For me it is cheaper to buy from taiwan directly than from Singapore.


----------



## Currawong

guymrob said:


> currawong said:
> 
> 
> > It's the other way around. A square wave is the sum of multiple harmonics. A DSD "impulse" isn't in music either. Multiple harmonics do not sum together in music to form anything like a square wave, unless the music is clipping, which is a different issue. I think the issue you may be closest to is that of aliasing close to the Nyquist frequency, which is a filter issue.
> ...


 
  
 I've had various NOS DACs here, and they all sounded clearer when they were fed high-res or iZotope was used to up-sample before sending the data to the DAC. I've measured the distortion of NOS DACs, and it is within the audible band. I used to believe as you do about impulse responses, but after researching sufficiently I now understand why it is wrong. DSD may have a high sampling rate, but it is only 1-bit. For various reasons, it is technically worse than PCM.
  
 What is truly important is not DSD performance, but how well a DAC performs with CD-quality music. The vast majority of music out there is 16/44.1 so if a DAC can't perform well with that, then it is a waste of time even considering it IMO.


----------



## guymrob

currawong said:


> I've had various NOS DACs here, and they all sounded clearer when they were fed high-res or iZotope was used to up-sample before sending the data to the DAC. I've measured the distortion of NOS DACs, and it is within the audible band. I used to believe as you do about impulse responses, but after researching sufficiently I now understand why it is wrong. DSD may have a high sampling rate, but it is only 1-bit. For various reasons, it is technically worse than PCM.
> 
> What is truly important is not DSD performance, but how well a DAC performs with CD-quality music. The vast majority of music out there is 16/44.1 so if a DAC can't perform well with that, then it is a waste of time even considering it IMO.


 

 ​Most of DACs in the market are capable of doing good performance D/A conversion, even cheap off selves DACs like BB, AKM, Sabre and CL. All DACs uses OS (Over Sampling) digital filters that have a degree of ringing, therefore they come in many different type, fast, slow, ultra-slow, some even have their own design and different characteristics. All these have some coloration that added in the music. Depending on the users preference, they can select the type of digital filters that suit to their tastes but most of time, they cannot be bypassed, it will look bad in their specs. OS actually make the sound 'cleaner' and not clearer. This has some impact the micro-dynamics. Some describe NOS has organic, natural and real sounding, devoid of any form of coloration.
  
 The design of DSD was to get rid of the over sampling digital filters, the major cause of ringing, even with 1 bit sampling at 2.82MHz or above, the specs in the audio band is comparable to a hi-res PCM. It is only above 22.5kHz, the noise shaping effect starts to decrease, and SNR will degrade. Many found DSD sounds more 'analogue' than PCM and this has been reported by many users over the years. 
  
 Those who have heard NOS swear by heart they never want to go back to OS, even me, who have spend most of time listening to OS since the inception of CDs. Most manufacturers who do NOS DACs don't emphasize on specs but subjectively listening, while others emphasize heavily on specs, getting the highest SNR and lowest distortion. In the end of day, it still boil down to listening and the consumers can ultimately make their choice.


----------



## PitBul34

> Those who have heard NOS swear by heart they never want to go back to OS


 
 It's not true. I'm former R2R tube NOS DAC user who migrated to modern R2R discrete ladder OS system. Some time ago i've owned famous cult MHDT 'Havana' R2R tube DAC (2x BB PCM56K R2R chips in NOS mode):
  

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

  
 In my setup: on the top right corner:
  

  
 It was the very pleasure sounded 'analog like' old school $2000 NOS DAC. But $700 Denafrips 'Ares' sounded much better for me.


----------



## guymrob

pitbul34 said:


> It's not true. I'm former R2R tube NOS DAC user who migrated to modern R2R discrete ladder OS system. Some time ago i've owned famous cult MHDT 'Havana' R2R tube DAC (2x BB PCM56K R2R chips in NOS mode):
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Nice setup, I can see you are a analog guy... Music is matter of personal taste and generally most of colleagues who listen to NOS DAC coupled with tube amps, it brings out the analog sound, my setup consists of Holo Spring NOS DAC and VTL tube amp...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




[/IMG]


----------



## slex

pitbul34 said:


> It's not true. I'm former R2R tube NOS DAC user who migrated to modern R2R discrete ladder OS system. Some time ago i've owned famous cult MHDT 'Havana' R2R tube DAC (2x BB PCM56K R2R chips in NOS mode):
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I got a feeling Ares will rape both my mimby and MHDT.


----------



## Energy

So many people quote pictures without deleting them.. i had to scroll a bunch. 

Anyways, great explanation guymrob.

Tube DAC's intrigue me.


----------



## lukeap69

I have an ARES incoming from Vinshine audio. I will compare it with my Spring L3 and DAC-19. Even if it will not dislodge my Holo Spring in my LS50 rig, I will use it in my bedroom HP rig unless I really dislike it which based on reports will not be the case.


----------



## PitBul34

New seller on Ebay, $725:
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/ARES-24Bit-384K-DSD-Digital-audio-decoder-DAC-decoder-supports-the-DSD256-/282350629368


----------



## lukeap69

pitbul34 said:


> New seller on Ebay, $725:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



 


Not bad with free shipping. Vinshine can probably match that though...


----------



## slex

Anyone has any balance xlr cable to recommend?


----------



## lukeap69

slex said:


> Anyone has any balance xlr cable to recommend?




I am in the market for a pair too. 

BTW, Alvin of Vinshine told me he had stroke a deal with the manufacturer so he can provide a better price than that of ebay. You can contact him directly if you want to 'negotiate'.


----------



## soundfanz

lukeap69 said:


> I am in the market for a pair too.
> 
> BTW, Alvin of Vinshine told me he had stroke a deal with the manufacturer so he can provide a better price than that of ebay. You can contact him directly if you want to 'negotiate'.


 
  
 Cool. Thanks for that.
  
 How about this price? 
  
 I just purchased.
  
 http://www.vinshineaudio.com/product-page/denafrips-ares-r2r-dac


----------



## Mr Pluto

Yep incl. shipping to Europe (DHL 1-week) it`s over $100 cheaper than the one offered in eBay. The china-man in eBay estimates a shipping time at least a month to EU


----------



## lukeap69

soundfanz said:


> Cool. Thanks for that.
> 
> How about this price?
> 
> ...




He had managed to adjust his pricing very quickly. Very nice price indeed.


----------



## soundfanz

Be good when more reviews come in.


----------



## slex

lukeap69 said:


> I am in the market for a pair too.
> 
> BTW, Alvin of Vinshine told me he had stroke a deal with the manufacturer so he can provide a better price than that of ebay. You can contact him directly if you want to 'negotiate'.



Can negotiate? Ok i keep that in mind. I dun think he can go lower then his launch price at around US$630 but i will try.


----------



## soundfanz

slex said:


> Can negotiate? Ok i keep that in mind. I dun think he can go lower then his launch price at around US$630 but i will try.


 
  
 Did you not see my post and link on previous page? No negotiation necessary I think, you can purchase it for US $598


----------



## lukeap69

slex said:


> Can negotiate? Ok i keep that in mind. I dun think he can go lower then his launch price at around US$630 but i will try.



 


It is already 598USD now (plus shipping of course...)


----------



## slex

lukeap69 said:


> slex said:
> 
> 
> > Can negotiate? Ok i keep that in mind. I dun think he can go lower then his launch price at around US$630 but i will try.
> ...



Ares at US$598 including shipping. Boy this dac is so aggressively price. It already knock off Bimmby at its pricing not to mention it a fully balance dac.


----------



## slex

Now im asking whether the extra pair of optical and coxial of Ares can be convert to i2S. Even the mimby can be coverted


----------



## lukeap69

slex said:


> Ares at US$598 including shipping. Boy this dac is so aggressively price. It already knock off Bimmby at its pricing not to mention it a fully balance dac.




Apologies, 598USD does not include shipping. Sorry for my poor English.


----------



## slex

lukeap69 said:


> Apologies, 598USD does not include shipping. Sorry for my poor English.



Still $1 cheaper then bimby at $599. I still hoping theres an option to convert one or two of the inputs to i2S.

Just like audio-gd range of dac with several options to convert.


----------



## lukeap69

slex said:


> Still $1 cheaper then bimby at $599. I still hoping theres an option to convert one or two of the inputs to i2S.
> 
> Just like audio-gd range of dac with several options to convert.




Even 1 BNC input would make me happy.


----------



## slex

My dealer just told me cannot be converted to i2S from his supplier. Look like the USB is the dominant interface which provide the highest resolutions including DSD. Well, i have the not so uber USB chain ready for it.


----------



## PitBul34

This history changed very quickly ))
  
 1. 
  
 2. 
  
 3. One, Two, Three - Venus:
  

  
*Denafrips Venus R2R DAC:*
  
 http://www.vinshineaudio.com/product-page/denafrips-venus-r2r-dac
  
*TECHNICAL HIGHLIGHT:*
 1. Amanero USB Interface
 2. CRYSTEK FEMTO Clock
 3. Proprietary R2R + DSD Architecture
 VENUS employees 26BIT  R2R +  6BIT DSD (32 steps FIR Filters), native PCM & DSD decoding with _*0.005%*_ precision resistors.
  
*SPECIFICATION:*
  
*DSD: *
 2.8224MHz(DSD1X) All Input
 5.6448MHz(DSD2X), 11.288MHz(DSD4X) USB & I2S Only

*PCM: *
 24bit/44.1、48、88.2、96、176.4、192、358.2(USB & I2S)、384(USB & I2S ) kHz

*Output Rating: *
 RCA: 2.2(+/-10%) V RMS(1KHz)
 XLR: 4.4(+/-10%) V RMS(1KHz)
  
*Specification:*
 AC Power: 115/230V, 50/60Hz
 Power Consumption: ≤20W
 Frequency Response:TBA
 THD+N: TBA
 S/N Ratio: TBA
 Dynamic Range: TBA
 Stereo Crosstalk: TBA
 Dimension: 320 *330 *80  mm
 Weight: 8kg


----------



## slex

lukeap69 said:


> Even 1 BNC input would make me happy.



Yeah i forgot BNC..how about AES


----------



## slex

Venus>Ares? 26 bit vs 18bit with i2S. But use Amanero vs Xmos208 on Ares.


----------



## slex

slex said:


> Venus>Ares? 26 bit vs 18bit with i2S. But use Amanero vs Xmos208 on Ares.




Ok i see the pricing. Is it X5 better?


----------



## lukeap69

slex said:


> Yeah i forgot BNC..how about AES




AED would make me happier...


----------



## slex

lukeap69 said:


> AED would make me happier...




How about USB into i2S . This is likely possible.


----------



## lukeap69

slex said:


> How about USB into i2S . This is likely possible.




My problem with that is my Soundaware Pro I2S out is using ethernet cable and has different configuration than PS anf Audio-gd so it is a not so useful input for me. I am just planning to use coax input at the moment as I find my redbook files really good.


----------



## Mr Pluto

PitBul34,
 So have you already compared your new OPPO SONICA DAC with ARES?


----------



## slex

lukeap69 said:


> My problem with that is my Soundaware Pro I2S out is using ethernet cable and has different configuration than PS anf Audio-gd so it is a not so useful input for me. I am just planning to use coax input at the moment as I find my redbook files really good.



Ok.I just find out some USB input sound better then i2S with MSB dac module


----------



## lukeap69

slex said:


> Ok.I just find out some USB input sound better then i2S with MSB dac module




LOL, that module may be more expensive than ARES itself.


----------



## slex

Dealer told me thier Terminator DAC is comparable to Rockna dac which uses MSB dac module. Surprisingly the USB input sound better then i2S on some reviewer of rockna.

I was wondering the xmos208 is using internal power or 5V rail from USB cable. Either way i might pick up a Humandata USB high speed galvanic isolator from Japan which is highly rated in pricing and performance of itona. The ethernet over USB startech too much wiring and power outlets to use


----------



## lukeap69

slex said:


> Dealer told me thier Terminator DAC is comparable to Rockna dac which uses MSB dac module. Surprisingly the USB input sound better then i2S on some reviewer of rockna.
> 
> I was wondering the xmos208 is using internal power or 5V rail from USB cable. Either way i might pick up a Humandata USB high speed galvanic isolator from Japan which is highly rated in pricing and performance of itona. The ethernet over USB startech too much wiring and power outlets to use




It's the first time I've read this Humandata. Can you send a link about it?


----------



## slex

lukeap69 said:


> It's the first time I've read this Humandata. Can you send a link about it?



You can read upon the Amazon Japan reviews. Do use google translate. This isolator has potential to ground the signal to an hifi grade ground box. Its has an an external power input which itona lacks. Retailing at US$240 excluding shipping.

http://www.fa.hdl.co.jp/en/plink/usb-029h2.html


----------



## PitBul34

mr pluto said:


> PitBul34,
> So have you already compared your new OPPO SONICA DAC with ARES?


 

 No, Sonica still on the way to me from US...


----------



## PitBul34

USB direct test.
  
 1. Denafrips 'Ares' R2R Ladder DAC and $1000 Soundaware D100 Pro Deluxe transport via COX interface:
  

  
  
 2. Denafrips 'Ares' R2R Ladder DAC and $50 Asus EEE PC 901 via USB direct to XMOS 208 input:


----------



## PitBul34

How to recognize XMOS 208 chip:
  

 Ares use modern XMOS XU208 chip:
  

  
 Holo Spring use old version XMOS U8 chip:


----------



## slex

pitbul34 said:


> USB direct test.
> 
> 1. Denafrips 'Ares' R2R Ladder DAC and $1000 Soundaware D100 Pro Deluxe transport via COX interface:
> 
> ...



Appreciate your video comparison. Is your Asus EEE running in battery?


----------



## PitBul34

slex said:


> Appreciate your video comparison. Is your Asus EEE running in battery?


 
 Thanks. Asus running in PSU.


----------



## alvin1118

Guys, I've a Terminator coming in early April. Shall report back to headfi on the details as soon as I get hold of it


----------



## slex

alvin1118 said:


> Guys, I've a Terminator coming in early April. Shall report back to headfi on the details as soon as I get hold of it


 

" I'll be back" until april before i get my Ares?


----------



## rudra

Just placed an order for the ARES  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. I want to evaluate the unit and also the customer service before I decide to spend more money on the soon to be released  tomahawk dac


----------



## slex

rudra said:


> Just placed an order for the ARES   . I want to evaluate the unit and also the customer service before I decide to spend more money on the soon to be released  tomahawk dac



Whats tomahawk dac?


----------



## rudra

Yet to be released DAC. It is supposed to be priced around $1.3k with NOS/OS switching similar to the Holo DAC level 1


----------



## slex

rudra said:


> Yet to be released DAC. It is supposed to be priced around $1.3k with NOS/OS switching similar to the Holo DAC level 1:tongue_smile:



Looks like a waves of NOS or R2R dac is coming.Sign of the end of DS dac


----------



## lukeap69

slex said:


> Looks like a waves of NOS or R2R dac is coming.Sign of the end of DS dac



 


Agreed. And the prices keep getting better too. 600USD for AGD Singularity 19, Denafrips DAC-68 and ARES for almost the same price, then the Schiits Mimby and Bimby. Lots of reasonably priced DACs are available now. This should be the trend and not the TERMINATOR level price IMO...


----------



## PitBul34

alvin1118 said:


> Guys, I've a Terminator coming in early April. Shall report back to headfi on the details as soon as I get hold of it


 
  
 Funeral of Delta\Sigma DACs )))


----------



## rudra

IMO death of DS DAC's are bit premature. There will always be someone who will prefer the DS over R2R. DAC's like Terminator, Holo Level 3 or any other brand  in that price range will be a niche market for those who can afford to chase the last 1%.


----------



## slex

rudra said:


> IMO death of DS DAC's are bit premature. There will always be someone who will prefer the DS over R2R. DAC's like Terminator, Holo Level 3 or any other brand  in that price range will be a niche market for those who can afford to chase the last 1%.



The latest ds dac offerings already in Handphones. Think that where ds dac belongs You cant queeze a nos r2r in that


----------



## slex

pitbul34 said:


> Funeral of Delta\Sigma DACs )))


----------



## PitBul34

slex said:


> Whats tomahawk dac?


 
 As Denafrips guys said, quote: "DENAFRIPS finalized the product line with Ares, Tomahawk, Venus, and Terminator. Tomahawk is to replace DAC-8PRO, Venus is to replace DAC-1Pro" 
  
 All models in new product line are R2R discrete ladder DACs.


----------



## abartels

rudra said:


> IMO death of DS DAC's are bit premature. There will always be someone who will prefer the DS over R2R. DAC's like Terminator, Holo Level 3 or any other brand  in that price range will be a niche market for those who can afford to chase the last 1%.


 
  
 DS chips also will evolve, and, some manufacturers actually DO invest in SQ instead of better specs only.
 Just curious how a *good* implemented Dual AK4497 would compare to one of the Denafrips R2R's............


----------



## m-i-c-k-e-y

OT

Know this is a Denafrips thread. But since the subject of affordable modern R2R DACs came to about, *Soekris*" commercial DAC is now only *363eur*. 

http://soekris.eu/shop/dac_modules_consumer_line/dac1101_usb_powered_dac/headamp_discrete_r_2r_sign_magnitude_d_en.html

On the other note Denafrips have a line of HPAs. Hope to see more of those.


----------



## PitBul34

abartels said:


> DS chips also will evolve, and, some manufacturers actually DO invest in SQ instead of better specs only.
> Just curious how a *good* implemented Dual AK4497 would compare to one of the Denafrips R2R's............


 

 I can compare Denafrips Ares & DAC-8PRO2 (Tomahawk now) with ES9038PRO later (after my Oppo Sonica will come).


----------



## abartels

pitbul34 said:


> abartels said:
> 
> 
> > DS chips also will evolve, and, some manufacturers actually DO invest in SQ instead of better specs only.
> ...


 
  
 That would be great! To be honest, maybe ES9038Pro is a very good sounding dac-chip, but it is designed to have best specs available,
 and also, has many, many build-in features which leaves audio designers not much room to implement their own designs.
 That said, I really think it will sound not as good as AK4497 or any R2R.
  
 My predictions: It will have a very dynamically sound, tons of details, lots of LF-output, probably a very good soundstage, but less musical
 sounding than R2R or AKM chipsets, at least the AK4495 and AK4497.
  
 Just my 2 cents.
  
 Regards,
 Alex


----------



## PitBul34

Ok, got my Denafrips DAC-8PRO2 today, will test it in holydays:


----------



## Mr Pluto

Nice! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Whats the first impression? No night and day difference with Ares?


----------



## Energy

I cannot comment much on the new ESS9038 however the ESS9018 is shades brighter compared to R2R Multibit and even more so when compared to R2R Ladder. Comparing my X-Sabre to the Metrum Pavane, Yggdrasil, and Holo Audio Spring was simply a night and day difference.
  
 Hope the DAC 8PRO2 surprises you


----------



## PitBul34

Denafrips DAC-8PRO2 R2R discrete ladder - the first impression. Well balanced, crystal clear and high resolution, pleasure sound:


----------



## gunwale

pitbul34 said:


> Denafrips DAC-8PRO2 R2R discrete ladder - the first impression. Well balanced, crystal clear and high resolution, pleasure sound:




does it sounds better than ares? or just different?


----------



## abartels

pitbul34 said:


> Denafrips DAC-8PRO2 R2R discrete ladder - the first impression. Well balanced, crystal clear and high resolution, pleasure sound:


 
  
 That's not the kind of "First Impression" I was hoping for.
 This is kind of: You had dinner at a 5* Restaurant, how was it: Oh, it was very tasty, people were polite and entourage was very pleasant 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  




  
 Btw, all the impressions, the recordings you post, how would or could we even compare sound this way???? Do you think your recordings from your speakers do sound better than the original recordings????
 Sorry, I appreciate you doing this, but, in my opinion it's completely useless.......
  
 Just my 2 cents


----------



## PitBul34

abartels said:


> Do you think your recordings from your speakers do sound better than the original recordings????
> Sorry, I appreciate you doing this, but, in my opinion it's completely useless.......
> 
> Just my 2 cents


 
  
 My recordings are much better then nothing or a useless text description of sound, imo.


----------



## PitBul34

gunwale said:


> does it sounds better than ares? or just different?


 
 It sounds more balanced and pleasure then Ares, imo.


----------



## Energy

Honestly I agree.
  
 Seeing a recorded video that's been compressed and uploaded to Youtube doesn't really give much of an idea regarding sound comparisons as it's going through a camera microphone.

 When comparing to your Holo Audio Spring you stated that you've owned the unit for awhile which the photos you provide deemed it to be true, however after owning the Ares and stating that the unit is superior to the Spring, you don't give much details on how or why. You just link readers to NOS measurements off of a Russian forum which can be misleading if you have any clue on how NOS works or precisely the Holo Audio Spring for that matter.
  
 I don't own a Ares or 8PRO2 however given their limited information provided by the designer or manufacturer, I have doubts of wanting one. As of current, Spring, Yggdrasil, or any Metrum Acoustics brand is more trusty than Denafrips for R2R related products until of course there are more serious reviews that surface rather than uploaded videos. Just my 2 cents.
  
 P.S. Is your speaker a full range speaker? Why do they have holes in them? Wouldn't that work against cone woofer rigidity and influence sound in a bad manner?
  


pitbul34 said:


> My recordings are much better then nothing or a useless text description of sound, imo.


 
  
 I personally feel a text description on sound comparing two or more units is more appreciated than a video that sounds nothing like the actual sound produced.


----------



## abartels

A useless text description indeed is useless, but it should be possible to compare two devices, and describe the differences between the two, that wouldn't be useless, spoken or in text message.
  
 Maybe put the volume at zero when recording and tell us what you think of the difference between the Denafrips DAC-8PRO2 R2R and the Denafrips Ares 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
 I would appreciate that A LOT 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
 But, I can understand what you meant by "useless text description", something like: it has better bass, or better highs or that kind of phrases, that indeed is useless.


----------



## gunwale

pitbul34 said:


> It sounds more balanced and pleasure then Ares, imo.


 
 can you record 2 of the same songs with ares and pro. thanks. from your previous recording i i think pro is more musical. thanks


----------



## abartels

Ok, I think I'll unsubscribe from this thread, this leads to nowhere.
 This is elementary school talk.
  
 Will search other fora or sites for proper reviews.


----------



## PitBul34

> can you record 2 of the same songs with ares and pro


 
  
 I'll start some tests this holydays, the record above just for the first impression.


----------



## PitBul34

> Seeing a recorded video that's been compressed and uploaded to Youtube doesn't really give much of an idea regarding sound comparisons as it's going through a camera microphone.
  
 So, why you still here? 
  
 > I personally feel a text description on sound comparing two or more units is more appreciated than a video that sounds nothing like the actual sound produced.
  
 Text description of sound is not objective, imo


----------



## Energy

I'm not anymore. Chao.
  
 Thank you for posting your "impressions".
  

  
 Or was it just a video of you listening to your gear as always? I'm not sure we understand the same vocabulary nor do I believe you know how sound works at this point given your videos and blank statements.


----------



## PitBul34

energy said:


> I'm not anymore. Chao.


 
  
 See you soon in live video battle thread: Denafrips 'DAC-8PRO2' vs Denafrips 'Ares' 
  


> Thank you for posting your "impressions".


 
  
 Thank you for the interest discussion! I hope to see you again this week!


----------



## soundfanz

Thought I'd post my comments. Take them for what they are, my thoughts.
  
 Firstly- the Denafrips Ares is my very first external Dac. In the past I've relied on the internal dacs of my CD players to play my music. Apart from my vinyl rig which is my favourite format and has been for quite a few years. I'm also now getting more and more into head-fi, and wanted a dedicated Dac to be able to play all the ripped CD's and downloads from my Hard Drive via my laptop, running into my Bakoon Headphone amp. Hence a DAC purchase. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Anyway......... I purchased my Ares from Vinshine Audio in Singapore ($598 US), and all my dealings have been with Alvin Chee. The customer service has been fantastic from Alvin and I really think he went the extra yards to help out. 
  
 The Dac arrived yesterday after ordering last weekend, and being the computer luddite I am, it took a while to get it up and running. At the minute I have been just using an AchtungAudio USB cable directly connecting it to my laptop. The Denafrips Ares connects directly into my Red Wine Audio 70.2 Signature mono block amps. I use no pre amp, and speakers are Jamo Concert 8 stand mounts.
  
 I am awaiting a USB Regen to arrive so I can put that in the chain along with my Curious Regen - Link cable. I also purchased a Jay's Audio LPS25VA  LPS from Vinshine Audio and I should get it later next week.
  
Alvin from Vinshine remotely accessed my computer today to check my JRiver settings. I had the Ares playing for a short while yesterday, but when I disconnected it, and re-connected at a later time, I couldn't get it working. Alvin set it all up and it's working great at the minute.
I can't praise his efforts enough, if you're thinking of buying this unit from Vinshine, IMO you'd be hard pressed to get better customer service.
  
 I have only had a short time playing files, but am mightily impressed. The files through the Ares sound at least the equal of my 2 CD players (Rega Apollo and E.Sound E.5 European Edition. Back to more music, here are a couple of pics. Can't wait to see whether the inclusion of the USB Regen, LPS, and Curious Regen Link cable improves it even more.


----------



## lukeap69

@soundfanz

Good to know that you had it working. How to you compare the sound with your CD rig and Vinyl rig?


----------



## soundfanz

lukeap69 said:


> @soundfanz
> 
> Good to know that you had it working. How to you compare the sound with your CD rig and Vinyl rig?




It's early days yet, I have been playing a few files from CD rips to HD, and accessed through JRiver. I'll need more time to compare playing a disc, and a file through Ares, but results have been excellent so far with the Denafrips.
Vinyl is the best sounding format to me at the moment, but I have put a few bucks into my vinyl rig...and think it should sound good. 
That said...I'm loving this Dac and need more time to see what it can do.


----------



## PitBul34

soundfanz said:


> I have only had a short time playing files, but am mightily impressed...
> That said...I'm loving this Dac and need more time to see what it can do.


 
 Nice! Now I'em not only one who like Denafrips R2R DACs here!!!


----------



## slex

Im cheap so i like it too


----------



## lukeap69

My ARES arrived but I am not home ATM. Will connect it to my system later.


----------



## rudra

Mine is due in 2 days. 

Sent from my ASUS Transformer Pad TF300T using Tapatalk


----------



## soundfanz

More feedback from other users will be great.
  
 I'm sure the OP feels less lonely now.


----------



## rudra

lukeap69 said:


> My ARES arrived but I am not home ATM. Will connect it to my system later.


 
 Looking forward to your thoughts on the how the ares compares with your Holo and Audio-GD Dac 19


----------



## lukeap69

rudra said:


> Looking forward to your thoughts on the how the ares compares with your Holo and Audio-GD Dac 19




Me too.


----------



## gunwale

lukeap69 said:


> Me too.


 me 3


----------



## T Bone

soundfanz said:


> I have been just using an AchtungAudio USB cable directly connecting it to my laptop. The Denafrips Ares connects directly into my Red Wine Audio 70.2 Signature mono block amps. I use no pre amp
> 
> Can't wait to see whether the inclusion of the USB Regen, LPS, and Curious Regen Link cable improves it even more.


 
  
 How are you controlling the volume with the PC?  The DAC doesn't have a volume attenuator and I'm pretty sure your mono blocks don't either.
  
 Most people with external DACs prefer to get "bit perfect" output from their computer to their DAC.  They don't want the operating system to have any control over the signal.


----------



## Mr Pluto

T Bone,
  
 Don`t ever ever use DAC-s volume control. Digital volume is from evil, it works on basis of dropping bits. Preamp/volume attenuatior is one of the most critical parts of your system. It`s actually the heart of your system.
  
 All the computer/streamer stuff is also not really there yet!


----------



## Mr Pluto

PitBul34,
  
 The vids are nice but maybe you can bless us with two words on how your Ares vs Dac-8 and maybe Sonica sounds? Is there any huge improvement of one over other?


----------



## soundfanz

t bone said:


> How are you controlling the volume with the PC?  The DAC doesn't have a volume attenuator and I'm pretty sure your mono blocks don't either.
> 
> Most people with external DACs prefer to get "bit perfect" output from their computer to their DAC.  They don't want the operating system to have any control over the signal.


 
  
 The Red Wine Audio mono blocks do in fact have volume attenuators.


----------



## PitBul34

mr pluto said:


> PitBul34,
> 
> The vids are nice but maybe you can bless us with two words on how your Ares vs Dac-8 and maybe Sonica sounds? Is there any huge improvement of one over other?


 
  
 Sonica is still on the way from USA, i'll tell about it later. I think it would be better to make a small table to describe advantages of each other.
  

*Indicator*​*ARES*​*DAC-8PRO2 R2R*​ExteriorSmall and simple looking device, minimalistic style, not eated much space, 1x unit.Solid looking heavy weight boxer, minimalistic style, need more space, 2x units.InteriorOne big O-transformer, 2x R2R ladders, 1x FPGA controller, 0,01 resistors.2x big O-transformers, separated power source unit, 4x R2R ladders, 2x FPGA controllers, 0,01 resistors.Build qualityBuild like a T-34 main battle tank, full metal jacket, all parts alligned nice, packed in 1x paper box. A special gift wooden boxes are available for Taiwan users (and for me  - many thanks to Taiwan dealer).Build like an ISU-152 tank destroyer, huge bullet proof case, many many metal, metal is everywhere, all parts alligned nice. Weight 13 kg, 2x units packed separately in 2x paper boxes.FormatsPCM, DSD (DoP), DSD native (USB)PCM, DSD (DoP), DSD native (I2S)USB+ (XMOS 208)-I2S-+ (HDMI, gold plated)COX2x RCA1x RCA, 1x BNCOPT2x TosLink2x TosLinkAES\EBU-2xOutputRCA, XLRRCA, XLRSoundstageVery deepMuch deeper and layered (but you need a nice tube setup and a lightweight high sensitivity paper cone dynamic heads to hear that)AttackVery fast, agressiveVery fast, much softer and balanced soundBassDeep and texturedVery deep, strong and textured (but you need a nice setup and high quality big AC  to hear that)MidsVery natural and pleasureVery natural and pleasure, more intelligent soundHeightsCrystal clearCrystal clear, but more gentle soundResolutionVery HighThe sameChannel separationVery HighA bit betterPrice$600$1500


----------



## gunwale

pitbul34 said:


> Sonica is still on the way from USA, i'll tell about it later. I think it would be better to make a small table to describe advantages of each other.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


great comparison. thanks.


----------



## Tekk83

From the comparasion chart, it really seems like the ares is a much better deal. Sounds like very minimal gains to hear the differences, if it needs a very high end set up to differentiate, for over double the cost. Unless of course someone would really prefer the I2S connection.


----------



## PitBul34

tekk83 said:


> From the comparasion chart, it really seems like the ares is a much better deal. Sounds like very minimal gains to hear the differences, if it needs a very high end set up to differentiate, for over double the cost. Unless of course someone would really prefer the I2S connection.


 

 The truth is out there. The sound quality of a modern DACs is so high, that every little step ahead costs more and more money. But a lot of people does not have suitable setups to hear this benefits. Yes, the difference between Ares & DAC-8PRO2 R2R is not like night & day. DAC-8PRO2 R2R sounds better in all parameters sought. But for some people it would be better to invest money into development of their setups and then to think of upgrade their DACs, imo.


----------



## Mr Pluto

..............dadadaa


----------



## Mr Pluto

PitBul34,
  
 Yep the very top of high-end digital becomes gradually sharper the higher you go. From $200 to 2k the upgrade is usually quite substantial but from 2k to 20k it becomes more of a taste issue.
  
 Do you have had some big boys like Accuphase, Burmester, Zanden etc. to compare the current Chinese miracles to?
  
 Your English is pretty good so please don`t be afraid to say a few words about your sonic impression. I suppose most here are impatiently waiting for a brief essay ....


----------



## PitBul34

Yes, some time ago I had a pair of Holy Monsters: Audio Research DAC1-20 & heavy upgraded MHDT Labs Havana R2R NOS DAC.
  
 But, I think, it would be better to compare Denafrips DACs vs high priced Vinyl system:
  
Denafrips 'Ares' vs Vinyl system test
  
Denafrips DAC-8PRO2 R2R vs Vinyl system test


----------



## foreverzer0

How about compared to the chord gear?


----------



## Walderstorn

If this was available in Eur i would have bought already, unfortunately i have a bad history with customs.


----------



## alota

walderstorn said:


> If this was available in Eur i would have bought already, unfortunately i have a bad history with customs.


 
 now that the dollar is pratically :1 with euro, it´s worse. same price more 40%


----------



## rafabro

What you talking about guys, VAT dependent on country 21-23% . Thats it. In worst case you pay tax but still you getting great DAC in even better price.


----------



## alota

rafabro said:


> What you talking about guys, VAT dependent on country 21-23% . Thats it. In worst case you pay tax but still you getting great DAC in even better price.



No.doubt but the vat plus custom is around 35-40%


----------



## lukeap69

Wow, you are paying a lot guys. I have the ARES continuously running for 2 days now. It sounds very good but not ready to dethrone my Holo Spring yet.


----------



## rudra

@lukeap69 you need the terminator to dethrone to the Holo 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
  
 is there a lot of difference between the ARES and Holo? In you opinion how much is the holo  (% wise ) better than Ares with the usual caveat of IMO, IMHO, YMMV etc


----------



## lukeap69

rudra said:


> @lukeap69 you need the terminator to dethrone to the Holo
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 LOL. The Terminator will terminate my bank account! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I haven't heard the ARES and the Spring side by side as I am waiting for a set of XLR interconnects so any comparison will only based on memory. However, I do not believe in percent difference. I was surprised how prominent the bass of the ARES compared to the Spring. It just tell you it's there so I feel the ARES presentation is more effortless. In most songs I have played the bass is very good with the ARES but I didn't like it with Roxy Music Avalon album. I thought the ARES did not do a good job with that album. With the female voices, ARES seems to be doing a good job but I still prefer the midrange of the Spring. I have not felt very emotionally involved with the ARES yet whilst listening to my favourite songs like I felt with the Spring. Yes, this is personal and subjective but this is the reason why I listen to music.
  
 ARES is improving though or my brain is adjusting and I would not hesitate to recommend ARES to anybody. It is a very good DAC and the improvement of the more expensive DACs will not be very high if you factor in the price. THE ARES DAC IS A VERY GOOD VALUE DAC. Period (Full stop for our British friends!) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 So far my listening is with my LS50>Ragnarok>DAC>Soundaware D100 Pro. I have yet to move it to my headphone rig but that will be after a week or so.
  
 Early days and my feeling about ARES may change. And of course, IMO, IMHO, YMMV.


----------



## hyperdanny

rafabro said:


> What you talking about guys, VAT dependent on country 21-23% . Thats it. In worst case you pay tax but still you getting great DAC in even better price.


 
  
  
 This is what I am talking about: in this country (Italy) you get charged first of all 22% IVA (means VAT) then tariffs, then an "estimated" further tax based on the supposed price of the shipping (and of course the theoretical shipping fees they use as a basis, based on distance and weight, are the highest possible).
 The last time I bought from China, for a 100$ cable I paid 45$ on top..so maybe now you understand better why having the possibility of buying from a European retailer is a huge bonus..
 Whatever price increase the importer might apply, it's going to be better anyway.


----------



## rudra

@lukeap69 your feedback is much appreciated 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. I concur the terminator will terminate my bank balance and my marriage


----------



## lukeap69

rudra said:


> @lukeap69
> your feedback is much appreciated  . I concur the terminator will terminate my bank balance and my marriage




Terminator has a lot to prove if it is worth buying it considering the very good value of the ARES. If the improvement is not significant, then the TERMINATOR can terminate itself.


----------



## PitBul34

> LOL. The Terminator will terminate my bank account! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Ares is the first step of the Denafrips product line now. Next steps are Tomahawk (former DAC-8PRO2 R2R - review), Venus (former DAC-1PRO R2R) and Terminator (top of the line).


----------



## rudra

I hope they include a usb input on the tomahawk


----------



## alvin1118

rudra said:


> I hope they include a usb input on the tomahawk


 
  
 Yes sir. Tomahawk, Venus, and Terminator come with Amanero I2S USB Module.


----------



## lukeap69

alvin1118 said:


> Yes sir. Tomahawk, Venus, and Terminator come with Amanero I2S USB Module.




I am starting to get scared with the names of these DACs.


----------



## slex

Lukeap69. May i know what connection you using? USB Coax or Optical?


----------



## lukeap69

slex said:


> Lukeap69. May i know what connection you using? USB Coax or Optical?




Coax.


----------



## gunwale

alvin1118 said:


> Yes sir. Tomahawk, Venus, and Terminator come with Amanero I2S USB Module.


 
 do you have tomahawk at vinshine?


----------



## slex

lukeap69 said:


> Coax.



Ok . i thought you using USB with very high resolution input source files comparing to Holo.

This sound good enough


----------



## lukeap69

slex said:


> Ok . i thought you using USB with very high resolution input source files comparing to Holo.
> 
> This sound good enough




Currently, I am using Soundaware D100 Pro as source. I will move the ARES after a week or so to my bedroom rig using my PC as source.


----------



## alvin1118

gunwale said:


> do you have tomahawk at vinshine?


 
  
 will reveal more info in mid of March sir.


----------



## PitBul34

mr pluto said:


> PitBul34,
> 
> The vids are nice but maybe you can bless us with two words on how your Ares vs Dac-8 *and maybe Sonica sounds*? Is there any huge improvement of one over other?


 
  
 Got Sonica today. Now break-in:


----------



## rafabro

hyperdanny said:


> This is what I am talking about: in this country (Italy) you get charged first of all 22% IVA (means VAT) then tariffs, then an "estimated" further tax based on the supposed price of the shipping (and of course the theoretical shipping fees they use as a basis, based on distance and weight, are the highest possible).
> The last time I bought from China, for a 100$ cable I paid 45$ on top..so maybe now you understand better why having the possibility of buying from a European retailer is a huge bonus..
> Whatever price increase the importer might apply, it's going to be better anyway.


 
 Obviously, your government is robbering you just like that..


----------



## thyname

pitbul34 said:


> Got Sonica today. Now break-in:




Congrats!

I have my eyes on the Sonica.

I would be very interested to learn how it compares with the new R2R DACs (Ares and Halo Spring)

Or with Gumby


----------



## gunwale

thyname said:


> Congrats!
> 
> I have my eyes on the Sonica.
> 
> ...


+1


----------



## rudra

ARES is in the house. Ordered it from Vinshine. Alvin at Vinshine has been great to deal with and kudos to him for been able to come up with a very competitive price for the ARES. I am listening to ARES with the ZMF Ori cherry wood and Cayin iHA6 amp balanced and later with my balanced LD tube amp. 
 Tried all the different file types to test the USB input.. All of them work. That is a good start in my book. Configured FB2K to output DSD. Just found out that I can upsample PCM to DSD in Foobar2K. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





. Poor man's HQP.
 Some un-boxing photos. Just for giggles I have compared the size of ARES to the AGD NFB 17.32.  Initial impression(subjective with the usual caveats)  against the AGD. Better micro details, good instrument separation.  I am not good with audiofoolery words to describe the sound. After 100 hours  I will chime in with my final impressions.


----------



## rudra

FB2K settings if anybody is interested. I couldn't hear any click/pop noise when switching to different DSD formats(DSD 64, 128, 256). When I get the chance I will try to connect the ARES to Squeezebox Touch on my 2 Ch setup which may not happen till the weekend.
  
 Update: to upsample anything over 88.2 I need to set it to DSD64 to get sound. This is where it gets interesting. When I play the file ARES display shows it as DSD256.


----------



## lukeap69

Thanks @rudra.

Glad that foobar2k and PC does not show those dreaded pops and clicks. In my Soundaware D100 Pro, these pops and clicks are so loud. As in loud. LOL.

Enjoy your ARES and come back for more impressions. I think I am starting to understand more where it is compared to my Spring. Cheers.


----------



## rudra

@lukeap69 have tried to send the DSD as DoP and see if you still get the loud pop. Apologies if you have already tried it.


----------



## gr8soundz

rudra said:


> FB2K settings if anybody is interested. I couldn't hear any click/pop noise when switching to different DSD formats(DSD 64, 128, 256). When I get the chance I will try to connect the ARES to Squeezebox Touch on my 2 Ch setup which may not happen till the weekend.
> Update: to upsample anything over 88.2 I need to set it to DSD64 to get sound. This is where it gets interesting. When I play the file ARES display shows it as DSD256.


 
  
 Thanks for this. I was wondering what DSD rates the Denafrips could _really_ handle. Hopefully the mismatched rates is just a software/firmware glitch that can be fixed with an update.
  
 The Denafrips is much closer to my budget plus I like the smaller size (compared to the Holo Spring) but all those soft capacitors packed inside is giving me pause.


----------



## rudra

gr8soundz said:


> Thanks for this. I was wondering what DSD rates the Denafrips could _really_ handle. Hopefully the mismatched rates is just a software/firmware glitch that can be fixed with an update.
> 
> The Denafrips is much closer to my budget plus I like the smaller size (compared to the Holo Spring) but all those soft capacitors packed inside is giving me pause.


 
 If have played DSD64, 128 & 256 DSF files and the DAC indicator lights up as ( 1x, 2x, 4x  with the DSD indicator on). I think the quirk is with the ASIO Proxy up-sampling in the chain..
  
 As for the life of the capactior's  only time will tell(oops I better not get sued for using some one's else TM 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)
  
 If anybody wants to try it out for themselves you can download DSD files from http://www.2l.no/hires/


----------



## lukeap69

rudra said:


> @lukeap69
> have tried to send the DSD as DoP and see if you still get the loud pop. Apologies if you have already tried it.




I don't think I have that option in Soundaware D100 Pro. I will try different settings when I connect my ARES to my PC. I will also switch DAC tonight to check if I will hear the same pops with my Holo.


----------



## slex

rudra said:


> If have played DSD64, 128 & 256 DSF files and the DAC indicator lights up as ( 1x, 2x, 4x  with the DSD indicator on). I think the quirk is with the ASIO Proxy up-sampling in the chain..
> 
> As for the life of the capactior's  only time will tell(oops I better not get sued for using some one's else TM  )
> 
> If anybody wants to try it out for themselves you can download DSD files from http://www.2l.no/hires/



How to tell if a cap is busted? Male sound turn into female squeal?


----------



## rudra

slex said:


> How to tell if a cap is busted? Male sound turn into female squeal?


 
 the same way as you do in any other device
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. TBH I don't know. One would assume that the caps used by Denafrips is of good quality.


----------



## gr8soundz

slex said:


> How to tell if a cap is busted? Male sound turn into female squeal?


 
  
 Might be very hard to tell. They're so close together that defects probably can't be seen unless visible from the top. Also, due to the sheer number, I wonder if some are redundant in case of failures? If so, the sound may not change much but then I'd worry about bad caps potentially damaging surrounding ones over time.
  
 Great price on the Denafrips but too bad (for me at least) they couldn't find a better design solution. I'm more a fan of solid-state caps but I realize they may not be the best performance option for certain audio equipment.


----------



## slex

I wonder if they have tested trying putting a bad cap in the middle of the bunch and hear how it soundzzzzz


----------



## alvin1118

Guys, please allow me to chime in. 
  
 Perhaps we could not understand the real reason why DENAFRIPS design uses multiple small capacitor as reservoir / filter caps in the DAC. Lets brainstorm together, perhaps the designer like to achieve lower ESR, improve high frequency response, or maybe to maximize the performance of the components?
  
 The fact is, to us as the consumers, we do not really have to worry the robustness of the product down to the components level, in this case, the multiple filter capacitors. Lets say for example, a computer CPU has millions of logic gates built-in a very small footprint integrated chip, we do not need to worry if any of the logic gate in the IC will be faulty one day, it's rare. There are many CPU other there, how frequent we come across a faulty CPU?
  
 Back to the capacitor, it is a passive component, as long as the product uses reliable brand (Nippon Chemicon, Nichicon, Elna, Panasonic, Vishay BC, etc), with the right design (DC rail voltage within the capacitor max rating), the lifespan of it will be better than any semi-conductor device, i.e. BJT / MOSFET / Opamp.
  
 Lets talk about the construction of a capacitor. Aluminim electrolytic capacitor comprises of two metal conductors with dielectric winding, encapsulated in a non-conductive container, in most case, cylindrical shape. The longer (large) the dielectric winding, the larger the capacitance. We can view a big capacitor is 2200uf/16v as 10nos of 220uf/16v parallel together. The endurance time and lifespan of a capacitor vary depends on the operational temperature, humidity, and the voltage applied to it. One possible reason why a capacitor would be damaged (within its lifespan), could be high voltage spike. The voltage spike higher than the capacitor voltage rating would penetrate the metal conductor in the capacitor hence damaging it. At the same voltage rating, 220uf and 2200uf metal conductor surface area are similar, hence we could deduce to say, the robustness of the two capacitors are similar, if not, same.
  
 I'm coming from electronics background by training, i liked electronic and started this hobby with amblab mini3 diy (anyone here still remember amblab?). When we DIY, we look at the design down to the components level, often, we like to use boutique components for only the god knows reason, lol. But as time goes by, for now, i focus in getting good products, hook them up, just sit back and enjoy the music. 
  
 Happy listening! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Rgs


----------



## PitBul34

alvin1118 said:


> Guys, please allow me to chime in.
> 
> Perhaps we could not understand the real reason why DENAFRIPS design uses multiple small capacitor as reservoir / filter caps in the DAC. Lets brainstorm together, perhaps the designer like to achieve lower ESR, improve high frequency response, or maybe to maximize the performance of the components?


----------



## gunwale

pitbul34 said:


>


 if you guys actually look back at previous post, the more expensive ones has larger capacitors?


----------



## slex

How about several big ones together? Will they react the same?

Yes i know , you need a big ass chasis


----------



## PitBul34

slex said:


> How about several big ones together? Will they react the same?
> 
> Yes i know , you need a big ass chasis


 
  
 In this theory, bigger is worse, coz big capacitors react slower.


----------



## Walderstorn

rafabro said:


> What you talking about guys, VAT dependent on country 21-23% . Thats it. In worst case you pay tax but still you getting great DAC in even better price.


 
 Lets put it this way, when i was living back home (in PT) a 408€ deal from Asia turned into a 643€ deal. I've been living in Sweden for 7 weeks but I won't risk the same thing again, actually i have no idea how customs work here. If they are anything like the portuguese ones they will try to find the price online and do an estimate, which makes it even worse.
  
 Edit:
  
 From tullverket,
  
 The customs duty rate ranges from 0 to 20 per cent, calculated from the price of the item, including shipping and transport insurance where applicable. VAT on most items is 25 per cent. 
  
 Shipments not exceeding SEK 1.500 in value that do not contain alcoholic beverages, tobacco products, perfume or scented water are exempt from customs duties. You must, however, always pay VAT and forwarding costs.
  
 When your package arrives in Sweden, you will be contacted by the company shipping the item to Sweden. Then the company will complete a customs declaration for you. When you retrieve the package, you will pay customs duty and VAT to the company who have completed your declaration. 
  
 Blink*blink*


----------



## rudra

Since we have established that importing to Europe is expensive may I suggest we move on and discuss about dac's please


----------



## hyperdanny

rudra said:


> Since we have established that importing to Europe is expensive may I suggest we move on and discuss about dac's please


 
 sorry if we're being boring, but if I'm not mistaken it was you who started it with a "I don't know what you're talking about"..we're just telling you.


----------



## rudra

hyperdanny said:


> sorry if we're being boring, but if I'm not mistaken it was you who started it with a "I don't know what you're talking about"..we're just telling you.


 are you sure it was me or was it someone else.


----------



## Sanlitun

So what is the best price and shipping for the Ares to Canada/USA?
  
 This looks like something I might want to waste money on.


----------



## rudra

sanlitun said:


> So what is the best price and shipping for the Ares to Canada/USA?
> 
> This looks like something I might want to waste money on.


 
 The best price that I have seen is at  https://www.vinshineaudio.com/product-page/denafrips-ares-r2r-dac
  
 Please do your own due diligence before purchasing.


----------



## PitBul34

thyname said:


> Congrats!
> 
> I have my eyes on the Sonica.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I'll make some tests this weekend. But my first impression: Sonica is more transparent, layered and clear, but Denafrips sounds more natural (in my taste ofcoz) with the same dynamic. They sounds differ from each other, but i can not make a choice, it's very difficult for me. I like both Denafrips R2R & Oppo Sonica.


----------



## gunwale

pitbul34 said:


> I'll make some tests this weekend. But my first impression: Sonica is more transparent, layered and clear, but Denafrips sounds more natural (in my taste ofcoz) with the same dynamic. They sounds differ from each other, but i can not make a choice, it's very difficult for me. I like both Denafrips R2R & Oppo Sonica.


 which denafrip are you refering to?

i read somewhere and this pure analog guy said delta sigma always had advantage in wide sound stage and accurate position which he calls it fake sound stage. r2r on the hand has smaller sound stage and more natural.


----------



## rudra

@PitBul34 Looking forward to your comparison of the ARES, Venus and Sonica dac's


----------



## Mr Pluto

Yes we are all impatiently waiting for the shootout ...


----------



## PitBul34

> which denafrip are you refering to?
  
 I have two Denafrips R2R discrete ladder DACs: Ares & DAC-8PRO2
  
 > i read somewhere and this pure analog guy said delta sigma always had advantage in wide sound stage and accurate position 
  
 Yes, I found ES9038PRO a bit overdetailed, but it is very good chip: transparent, layered and clear 'academical' sound. It's very nice for a hi-quality recorded cameral jazz, vocal, classic, percussion etc. 
  
 > r2r on the hand has smaller sound stage and more natural.
  
 Agree. R2R discrete DACs are more natural and expressive sounding divices, it's very good for live vocal, live records, expressive jazz, rock-n-roll and heavy-metal.


----------



## Mr Pluto

pitbul34 said:


> Yes, I found ES9038PRO a bit overdetailed, but it is very good chip: transparent, layered and clear 'academical' sound. It's very nice for a hi-quality recorded cameral jazz, vocal, classic, percussion etc.


 
  
 Do you mean ES9038PRO chip implementation in Sonica or you have tested the 9038 chip somewhere else too?


----------



## PitBul34

Yes, i mean implementation in Sonica.


----------



## slex

Overdetailed? Can hear more micro? How about separation where r2r is known to have aces?


----------



## slex

pitbul34 said:


> > which denafrip are you refering to?
> 
> I have two Denafrips R2R discrete ladder DACs: Ares & DAC-8PRO2
> 
> ...




I think 9038pro will perform well in new breed of Home theatre receiver.


----------



## Mr Pluto

PitBul34,
  
 So your first feeling is that Sonica is a bit too analytical for some (brighter) recordings?
  
 How about a well recorded material. Did the Oppo shine there more than your R2R dacs?
  
 Can you please also tell if the Denafrips faceplate is made of plastic or aluminium?


----------



## PitBul34

Yes, the Sonica has more analytical, more articulated sound. Denafrips sounds more pleasure and juicy. It was my first impression.
  
 > Can you please also tell if the Denafrips faceplate is made of plastic or aluminium?
  
 Denafrips has full-metal chassis. Sonica has plastic sides, all other parts are metal.


----------



## abartels

mr pluto said:


> ?
> 
> Can you please also tell if the Denafrips faceplate is made of plastic or aluminium?


 
  
 TANKS aren't build from PLASTIC, eh, maybe the Russion ones, but I don't think so


----------



## Mr Pluto

Thanks PitBul34!
  
 It would be interested to know which DAC you will keep after the final comparison.
  
 If you like to sell your Ares then please let me know. I´m located close to you and I need some small dac for my smat tv. It would be also interesting to compare it to the dac`s in my current players.


----------



## rudra

ARES does DSD as DoP over the USB input.  It does not support 48 kHz DSD. I think very few manufacturer support DSD @ 48 kHz. I am using. foobar to convert 44.1, 88.2 & 176.4 to DSD 4x .  So far I am enjoying.  for the rest of sample rate I am using Sox to upsample to 384 kHz.


----------



## gunwale

pitbul34 said:


> Yes, i mean implementation in Sonica.


 
 can you change the ess filters in sonica?


----------



## rudra

gunwale said:


> can you change the ess filters in sonica?


 
 I don't thing one can reading the manual


----------



## PitBul34

slex said:


> Overdetailed? Can hear more micro? How about separation where r2r is known to have aces?


 
 Yes i can. Separation is the same.
  


abartels said:


> TANKS aren't build from PLASTIC, eh, maybe the Russion ones, but I don't think so


 
 Sonica loaded by wireless transmitters, this is the reason of plastic sides, imo


----------



## PitBul34

gunwale said:


> can you change the ess filters in sonica?


 
 No. Oppo does not supply it in Sonica.
  


rudra said:


> ARES does DSD as DoP over the USB input.


 
 DSD native over USB test:


----------



## slex

Mikhail, is your Ares more musical then your MHDT Havana NOS tube dac?


----------



## PitBul34

slex said:


> Mikhail, is your Ares more musical then your MHDT Havana NOS tube dac?


 
 Ares more natural due to much higher resolution & dynamic, deeper soundstage and better channel separation. In my tube setup, full-range AC and in my listening room, ofcourse.


----------



## thyname

Can this be purchased from a US based dealer and shipped from US?


----------



## Light - Man

Guys, what is the best price available and where do you recommend that we buy it from?
  
 I have a *Musical Fidelity V90 DAC* at the moment and power it from a 12 volt car battery and it still sounds pretty good to me, has anyone experienced the V90 and if so how do they compare?
  
 I have a decent  mains power filter/conditioner, does the Ares benefit from a good filter?
  
 Edit: I had a look and the best price seems to be $598 (US) plus $50 delivery???


----------



## PitBul34

light - man said:


> Guys, what is the best price available and where do you recommend that we buy it from?
> 
> Edit: I had a look and the best price seems to be $598 (US) plus $50 delivery???


 
 As far as i know, you're rigth, the best price today is $598 at vinshineaudio.com
  
 > does the Ares benefit from a good filter?
  
 I don't think so. If your power line is stable you can use a simple filter.


----------



## PitBul34

Next video: Denafrips 'Ares' guitar music test


----------



## rudra

@PitBul34

Can you please share your foobar setting.

According to the FAQ at http://www.denafrips.com/qa.html

Q6：How do DENAFRIPS DACs decode DSD format via USB, native or Dop?
A：Our DACs were using Dop standard for DSD decoding.


----------



## Rodion Manko

Mikhail, orignal driver from Denafrips site (*xmos-stereo-usb-audio-class2-driver-2005_v3.20.0__1_.rar*) can not play DSD native, only DSD over PCM.


----------



## rudra

rodion manko said:


> Mikhail, orignal driver from Denafrips site (*xmos-stereo-usb-audio-class2-driver-2005_v3.20.0__1_.rar*) can not play DSD native, only DSD over PCM.


 
 My experience is same as above. Unless @PitBul34 is using a different version of the usb driver.


----------



## slex

pitbul34 said:


> Ares more natural due to much higher resolution & dynamic, deeper soundstage and better channel separation. In my tube setup, full-range AC and in my listening room, ofcourse.




I see from the video your tube component is all rca...have you tried balance?


----------



## rudra

slex said:


> I see from the video your tube component is all rca...have you tried balance?


 
 FWIW I have a fully balanced setup for the headphone. I don't want to stir up the balanced vs SE debate, is there a particular reason you are interested in the balanced output.


----------



## slex

pitbul34 said:


> Next video: Denafrips 'Ares' guitar music test







rudra said:


> FWIW I have a fully balanced setup for the headphone. I don't want to stir up the balanced vs SE debate, is there a particular reason you are interested in the balanced output.



I was asking Mikhail, if there could be any differences on SE and Balance on the Ares.


----------



## rudra

from the limited testing I couldn't find any difference between SE and balanced once both of them were level matched. YMMV


----------



## slex

rudra said:


> from the limited testing I couldn't find any difference between SE and balanced once both of them were level matched. YMMV



Ok thanks,will output to 2 of my amps.


----------



## PitBul34

slex said:


> I was asking Mikhail, if there could be any differences on SE and Balance on the Ares.


 
  


rudra said:


> from the limited testing I couldn't find any difference between SE and balanced once both of them were level matched. YMMV


 
 Agree. I use SE.


----------



## PitBul34

rudra said:


> @PitBul34
> 
> According to the FAQ at http://www.denafrips.com/qa.html
> 
> ...


 
 Hm... http://www.denafrips.com/store/p4/DAC_ARES.html
  
 Quote: 
  
*Format and sample frequency support:*
*COAX/OPT *

*PCM：16-24Bit 44.1、48、88.2、96、176.4、192Khz*
*DSD：DSD64*

 *USB *

*PCM：16-24Bit 44.1、48、88.2、96、176.4、192、352.8、384Khz*
*DSD：**NATIVE DSD64、DSD128、DSD256*


----------



## rudra

pitbul34 said:


> Hm... http://www.denafrips.com/store/p4/DAC_ARES.html
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


 
 That is correct but you still have to  send the DSD as DoP otherwise the unit won't play. If you have  foobar you can test with ASIO Proxy. If you change the *DSD mode* to DSD the DAC wont play the file. If you are using foo_input_sacd, it by default is doing DoP.


----------



## PitBul34

> If you have  foobar you can test with ASIO Proxy. If you change the *DSD mode* to DSD the DAC wont play the file.
  
 See this video https://youtu.be/kJtsV8c2RD4
  
 0:16 - 0:45 - my Foobar settings, DSD mode is on. EEE PC 901, Win7, Foobar2000:


----------



## rudra

It is actually sending it as DoP which is how input_sacd is programmed. As i mentioned in my previous reply only asio proxy has the ability to switch between DSD or DoP. Please try it with Asio Proxy and report if you can send it as DSD


----------



## PitBul34

Today I got this nice wooden gift box for my Ares from Taiwan dealer:


----------



## Mr Pluto

LOL So, the Chinese send the dac first and then ship the box afterwards 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Now it seems a right time to put it in the box and sell it to me


----------



## PitBul34

mr pluto said:


> LOL So, the Chinese send the dac first and then ship the box afterwards


 

 No, this is a special gift boxes for V.I.P. clients 
  
 > Now it seems a right time to put it in the box and sell it to me 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 No way! I like it ) BTW, Denafrips run new ARES with black PCB:


----------



## lukeap69

pitbul34 said:


> No, this is a special gift boxes for V.I.P. clients
> 
> > Now it seems a right time to put it in the box and sell it to me
> 
> No way! I like it ) BTW, Denafrips run new ARES with black PCB:




Black PCB for blacker background? j/k LOL


----------



## Mr Pluto

> Black PCB for blacker background? j/k LOL


 
  
 LMAO ..... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	









  
  


> No way! I like it )


 
 Which one the box or the Ares?


----------



## Mr Pluto

*PitBul34,*
 Seems that you're probably gonna sell the DAC-8PRO2 and keep the Ares?
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Or how many dac`s you need


----------



## Light - Man

mr pluto said:


> *PitBul34,*
> Seems that you're probably gonna sell the* DAC-8PRO2* and keep the Ares?
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Pitbul, how does the DAC-8PRO2 compare or have you already mentioned the comparison?


----------



## thyname

OK, I went ahead and ordered the Ares from the Vinshine web store.

https://www.vinshineaudio.com

I am in USA.

Online ordering process was really easy. Used PayPal 

A big thanks to Alvin from Vinshine who was extremely helpful when I contacted him with questions via Facebook Messenger 

I will come over here and post impressions when I get it.


----------



## abrusc

thyname said:


> OK, I went ahead and ordered the Ares from the Vinshine web store.
> 
> https://www.vinshineaudio.com
> 
> ...


 

 Congrats for the new dac! What dac are you using now?


----------



## thyname

abrusc said:


> Congrats for the new dac! What dac are you using now?




Thanks! 

Using a Matrix Audio M-Series Quattro II in DAC mode. Very good DAC! Coupled with Matrix HPA-3B Amp.

I am just very curious on the R2R Ladder DACs


----------



## Mr Pluto

Congrats thyname! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Did they tell what`s the estimated delivery time from Vishine to US?
  
 From spec it seems that Ares and Venus are the sweet pots. Venus and Terminator both have _*0.005%*_ precision resistors, 26BIT R2R +  6BIT DSD, native PCM & DSD and same other spec. Only difference seems the meaty outboard PSU of Terminator.....


----------



## thyname

Mr Pluto

Thanks!

Alvin said 5-8 business days. We'll see. I am not in a rush.

In the ideal world, I would have gotten Venus. But there is a huge price difference (to me) between Ares and Venus. So Ares it is!

If Ares is any good, then I would save my money to buy a real good R2R Ladder DAC such as Venus or Holo Springs.


----------



## Mr Pluto

> Alvin said 5-8 business days. We'll see. I am not in a rush.


 
 That`s great! I read somewhere that it takes around 3 weeks. I suppose shipping to Europe won`t take any longer also.
  


> In the ideal world, I would have gotten Venus. But there is a huge price difference (to me) between Ares and Venus. So Ares it is! If Ares is any good, then I would save my money to buy a real good R2R Ladder DAC such as Venus or Holo Springs.


 
 Exact same thoughts here. I will probably also order Ares first to see if there really is some magic. Over the years I have had a lot of different players and dac´s so lets see where the Ares stands and if it can compete with big boys. If the Ares truly is something special then I will order the Venus to replace my current source.  
  
 BTW, pitbul34 preferred Ares to Holo Spring.


----------



## PitBul34

mr pluto said:


> LMAO .....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 ))))) Both


----------



## PitBul34

light - man said:


> Pitbul, how does the DAC-8PRO2 compare or have you already mentioned the comparison?


 
 Yes, i did it here http://www.head-fi.org/t/833690/denafrips-ares-r2r-discrete-ladder-dac-close-up-view/195#post_13294038


----------



## PitBul34

> But there is a huge price difference (to me) between Ares and Venus. So Ares it is!


 
  
 Tomahawk (former DAC-8PRO2 R2R) is the next after Ares in model line.


----------



## PitBul34

mr pluto said:


> *PitBul34,*
> Seems that you're probably gonna sell the DAC-8PRO2 and keep the Ares?
> 
> 
> ...


 
 No, I have presented it to my elder brother. I use 2x DACs now (Ares & Oppo 'Sonica').


----------



## iitime

Just ordered a DAC-68 R2R from denafrips.com via email (denafrips@gmail.com). Has anyone ordered from them before?
 Looking forward to listening to it.


----------



## Mr Pluto

iitime said:


> Just ordered a DAC-68 R2R from denafrips.com via email (denafrips@gmail.com). Has anyone ordered from them before?
> Looking forward to listening to it.


 
 Congrats! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Seems they sell directly also. Ares is $18 cheaper than from Vinshine so prices are falling ...... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Can you please tell us how much was their shipping fee and estimated delivery time?


----------



## seaninbrisbane

Just ordered an Ares DAC from Vinshine.....estimated delivery is one week to Australia (shipping was $50).  Excellent customer service - I received personal emails from the company almost immediately, which is a nice thing in this day and age.


----------



## Rodion Manko

I"m ordered my DAC-68 directly from denafrips.com via email and got my DAC February 11th. From Taiwan to Ukraine delivery term of DAC was four days(!!!).


----------



## iitime

Shipping was $50 by EMS from denafrips.com. It should arrive within 2 weeks.


----------



## slex

iitime said:


> Just ordered a DAC-68 R2R from denafrips.com via email ([COLOR=555555]denafrips@gmail.com)[/COLOR]. Has anyone ordered from them before?
> Looking forward to listening to it.



Have you ask them hows they sound considering Dac68 is 18bit vs Ares 20bit?


----------



## gunwale

looks like everyone is getting ares. i am waiting for tomahawk and i hope it is still less than 1k but i think its going to be 1.5k

can anyone do a sound impression comparing the ares with something like grace or chord?


----------



## rudra

Tomahawk will be around $1.3k ball park to be able to compete with the holo level 1


----------



## Mr Pluto

Rodion,
  
 How you like the DAC68 and what have you compared it to?


----------



## lukeap69

Forget the price of ARES, I think many will enjoy it if they will not think it is cheaper than other very good DACs. Had I not heard and owned the Holo Spring, I will (/may) be happy with the ARES. It is a very enjoyable DAC.


----------



## soundfanz

rudra said:


> Tomahawk will be around $1.3k ball park to be able to compete with the holo level 1


 
  
 The OP thinks that the cheaper Ares beats out the Holo Level 1. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
  
 I love my Ares, but haven't anything to compare it to. Not that I really need to, am very happy.


----------



## slex

soundfanz said:


> The OP thinks that the cheaper Ares beats out the Holo Level 1.
> 
> I love my Ares, but haven't anything to compare it to. Not that I really need to, am very happy.



I wonder why he gave the 8pro2 to his bro and kept the Ares....good bro to have


----------



## gunwale

slex said:


> I wonder why he gave the 8pro2 to his bro and kept the Ares....good bro to have


 i guess it's probably because it sounded more like any good dac. meanwhile ares is special and has a raw sound to it.


----------



## Mr Pluto

> slex said:
> 
> 
> > I wonder why he gave the 8pro2 to his bro and kept the Ares....good bro to have
> ...


 
 ......I thought maybe he broke his legs?


----------



## slex

Maybe his bro has a better setup then his


----------



## lukeap69

Or maybe he is going to buy the baddest of them all... the Terminator!


----------



## joseph69

.


----------



## Mr Pluto

> Or maybe he is going to buy the baddest of them all... the Terminator!


 
 ............and kills all of us :=))


----------



## lukeap69

mr pluto said:


> ............and kills all of us :=))




... in musical enjoyment of course.


----------



## slex

Are the warranty longer for above Ares models?


----------



## PitBul34

))))) Ahhahah
  

  
  
 > I love my Ares, but haven't anything to compare it to. 
  
 Good news  I have. 
  
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to tonight's main event featuring for the first time 2 of the world's most infamous fighters. In the left corner, hailing from California, powered by one ES9038PRO chip: Oppo 'Sonica' DAC & Network streamer !  And in the right corner, his opponent, hailing from Taiwan, powered by two R2R discrete ladders: Denafrips 'Ares' R2R DAC !
  
Gentlemen, may the best man win. Let's fight !
  
Round #001
  
Sonica:

  
  
Ares:

  
 *****
Round #002
  
 Sonica:

  
  
 Ares:

  
 *****
Round #003
  
 Sonica:

  
  
 Ares:

  
 *****
Round #004
  
 Sonica:

  
  
 Ares:


----------



## Mr Pluto

Sonica seems bit louder. Are you recording with your cell phone or what mike are you actually using?


----------



## PitBul34

Yes, with my cell phone.


----------



## rudra

soundfanz said:


> The OP thinks that the cheaper Ares beats out the Holo Level 1.




From what I have read the holo sounds best when run in NOS mode. It would be interesting to know if the denafrips NOS dac sound the same/different to their OS models.


----------



## slex

Mikhail which won? Ares or Sonica


----------



## abrusc

slex said:


> Mikhail which won? Ares or Sonica


 

 The answer is on the Sonica thread http://www.head-fi.org/t/819959/oppo-sonica-dac-an-affordable-es9038pro-sabre-dac/180#post_13315234:
  


pitbul34 said:


> The winner can be chosen at random. I deside to keep both units in my household  Oppo for hi-quality hi-res jazz records and Ares as universal DAC.


----------



## Audio-68

I just ordered the Ares from Vinshine audio, shipping to USA. Will compare with the new Audio-GD Singularity 19 when I receive it. Currently using Soekris DAC1101 which I really like. I'm skeptical if either the Ares or Sing19 can compete with the Soekris. I 'll let you know in a few weeks after I receive and burn them in.


----------



## thyname

audio-68 said:


> I just ordered the Ares from Vinshine audio, shipping to USA. Will compare with the new Audio-GD Singularity 19 when I receive it. Currently using Soekris DAC1101 which I really like. I'm skeptical if either the Ares or Sing19 can compete with the Soekris. I 'll let you know in a few weeks after I receive and burn them in.


 
 Congrats!
  
 I ordered mine (also from Vinshine, as posted above) on Saturday. Got the tracking number yesterday. Already shipped from Hong Kong. Via DHL.
  
 I am in US too (Virginia).


----------



## Mr Pluto

Audio-68,
  
 Congrats! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Comparison between 3 different R2R DAC`s would be most interesting. We look forward to hearing from you.


----------



## rudra

mr pluto said:


> Audio-68,
> 
> Congrats!
> 
> ...


 
 +1


----------



## gr8soundz

audio-68 said:


> I just ordered the Ares from Vinshine audio, shipping to USA. Will compare with the new Audio-GD Singularity 19 when I receive it. Currently using Soekris DAC1101 which I really like. I'm skeptical if either the Ares or Sing19 can compete with the Soekris. I 'll let you know in a few weeks after I receive and burn them in.


 
  
 My Soekris dac1101 should arrive in a couple of days. Would love to know how it compares to the Ares.


----------



## Audio-68

gr8soundz said:


> My Soekris dac1101 should arrive in a couple of days. Would love to know how it compares to the Ares.


 

 Good choice. Outstanding dac.


----------



## lukeap69

If anybody is interested, Alvin of Vinshine sent me a link to ARES user manual http://gofile.me/6lsKW/EqUNcyESX
  
 One correction though as advised by Alvin pointed out, the 22 bits mentioned in the manual should actually be 20 bits.
  
*Update*: The user manual can now be downloaded from Vinshine ARES download page or click this link.


----------



## soundfanz

Got my user manual too.
I'm loving the Denafrips Ares.

One thing I have noted though. I purchased a USB Regen, Curious Regen Link cable, and a Jays Audio LPS 25VA linear power supply optimized to work with the Regen. Hoping that these add ons would maximise performance of the Ares.
They made no difference to sound quality at all. The only improvement made was upgrading my USB cable to the ifi Gemini dual head usb cable. But it was very subtle though. 
The Achtung Audio usb cable it replaced is a fine cable.

Says a lot IMO about the quality of the Ares usb implementation.

I'm wondering whether a Singxer SU-1 would be beneficial?


----------



## lukeap69

soundfanz said:


> Got my user manual too.
> I'm loving the Denafrips Ares.
> 
> One thing I have noted though. I purchased a USB Regen, Curious Regen Link cable, and a Jays Audio LPS 25VA linear power supply optimized to work with the Regen. Hoping that these add ons would maximise performance of the Ares.
> ...




It seems Denafrips like its USB implementation as Vinshine was asking me to check it but so far I have used coax input only.


----------



## slex

Usb is using latest xmos208 with kds clock. No singxer necessary.


----------



## soundfanz

slex said:


> Usb is using latest xmos208 with kds clock. No singxer necessary.


 
  
 Thank you. You saved me some money.


----------



## slex

soundfanz said:


> Thank you. You saved me some money.



Welcome.Will be experimenting some USB filters to squeeze out pure data and power and hear whether Ares will sing better


----------



## rudra

slex said:


> Welcome.Will be experimenting some USB filters to squeeze out pure data and power and hear whether Ares will sing better




Looking forward to your feedback. I was looking at getting ifi purifier2. I may now hold off


----------



## slex

rudra said:


> Looking forward to your feedback. I was looking at getting ifi purifier2. I may now hold off



Yes intending to insert my present ipurifier2 into Ares using Musical Paradise MP-U1 regulated battery supply to it. I will also test my Singxer F1 into coax to compare .


----------



## gunwale

pitbul34 said:


> ))))) Ahhahah
> 
> 
> 
> ...




 sorry for quoting old long post. i didnt have the time to listen to this before this. i think ares has less echoes.


----------



## Rodion Manko

mr pluto said:


> Rodion,
> 
> How you like the DAC68 and what have you compared it to?


----------



## LoryWiv

Does the Ares automatically up sample, PCM and/or DSD? I can't tell from the manual which was kindly posted, but one of the advantages of r2r is supposed to be non-oversampling.

Thanks for any information, and for a great thread.


----------



## Rodion Manko

Initially, the wah effect of the DAC-68 did not cause. But after warming up the sound became much better: larger, more energetic, more balanced and now in my opinion it is at the level of much more expensive DACs. Now my old DAC (Audio-GD (2015)) does not stand any comparison with it. Since it has a more dry, meat-free bones, an analytical sound, with an emphasis on high frequencies with characteristic chime for Sabre 9018S. Also, despite the excellent async USB in the DAC-68 after buying a network player (SOtM sMS-200) the sound became even better - more emotional, involving and with a deeper bass. As a result my old DAC (Audio-GD) offered for sale.


----------



## Rodion Manko

rodion manko said:


> Initially, the wah effect of the DAC-68 did not cause. But after warming up the sound became much better: larger, more energetic, more balanced and now in my opinion it is at the level of much more expensive DACs. Now my old DAC (Audio-GD NFB-1 (2015)) does not stand any comparison with it. Since it has a more dry, meat-free bones, an analytical sound, with an emphasis on high frequencies with characteristic chime for Sabre 9018S. Also, despite the excellent async USB in the DAC-68 after buying a network player (SOtM sMS-200) the sound became even better - more emotional, involving and with a deeper bass. As a result my old DAC (Audio-GD) offered for sale.


----------



## slex

Gummy would be nice to compare even the Mhdt Pagoda. All are balance dac but are almost X2 of Ares's value.


----------



## Mr Pluto

Rodion
  
 Thanks for description!
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 slex,
  
 PitBul owned MHDT Havana R2R tube DAC (2x BB PCM56K R2R chips in NOS mode) but much preferred Ares. Check page 8.


----------



## slex

mr pluto said:


> Rodion
> 
> Thanks for description!
> 
> ...



Yes i knew. Pagoda is using PCM1704UK and likely more detail than Havana.


----------



## alvin1118

lorywiv said:


> Does the Ares automatically up sample, PCM and/or DSD? I can't tell from the manual which was kindly posted, but one of the advantages of r2r is supposed to be non-oversampling.
> 
> Thanks for any information, and for a great thread.




The Ares upsample all PCM input to 768kHz. While the DSD is NOS.


----------



## thyname

An update to my previous post:
  
 My DENAFRIPS ARES DAC was delivered today! I ordered it on Saturday (3/4/17) and it was delivered today, Wednesday (3/8/17). Amazing! Super fast shipping, considering that it was shipped from Hong Kong (I am in Virginia).
  
 I am not at home to open and set it up, I am at work (my old folks were home to sign for it), but plan to set it up this evening. Most likely, I won't have time to critically "listen" to it until the weekend.
  
 Big kudos to VINSHINE AUDIO and @alvin1118 for super fast shipping and excellent customer service.
  
 https://www.vinshineaudio.com/product-page/denafrips-ares-r2r-dac
  
 So you folks who want the Ares and are hesitating on ordering something from Asia (I was one of you), have no fear and pull the trigger!


----------



## hifimckinney

thyname said:


> An update to my previous post:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



 


And you are headfi - ing at work??? Who is your employer ??? 

Looking forward to your impressions.


----------



## thyname

hifimckinney said:


> thyname said:
> 
> 
> > An update to my previous post:
> ...


 





 Come on, it only takes one minute to come over here and post this. OK, two minutes now.


----------



## LoryWiv

alvin1118 said:


> The Ares upsample all PCM input to 768kHz. While the DSD is NOS.


 
 Very helpful, thank you. Can you comment on whether this automatic oversampling undermines the supposed sound quality advantage of NOS direct / discrete output that resister ladder DAC's (in principle) offer?


----------



## krell1967

By few days I got to know this brand of R2R dac, I bought to start an Ares Dac and I am in touch with the manager Vinshine Audio Alvin Chee in Singapore.
Now I am waiting to receive the dac by DHL courier, the first impressions that I can report is the excellent customer care by Alvin, he responds very quickly to my emails, also in consideration of the time zone that exists between Italy and Singapore, is very helpful to any question, for now I can say I am really very very satisfied.


----------



## rudra

lorywiv said:


> Very helpful, thank you. Can you comment on whether this automatic oversampling undermines the supposed sound quality advantage of NOS direct / discrete output that resister ladder DAC's (in principle) offer?




I am guessing that depending on the input frequency the oversampling can occur in stages before the ladder.


----------



## rudra

rodion manko said:


> Initially, the wah effect of the DAC-68 did not cause. But after warming up the sound became much better: larger, more energetic, more balanced and now in my opinion it is at the level of much more expensive DACs. Now my old DAC (Audio-GD (2015)) does not stand any comparison with it. Since it has a more dry, meat-free bones, an analytical sound, with an emphasis on high frequencies with characteristic chime for Sabre 9018S. Also, despite the excellent async USB in the DAC-68 after buying a network player (SOtM sMS-200) the sound became even better - more emotional, involving and with a deeper bass. As a result my old DAC (Audio-GD) offered for sale.


 
 I been sitting on the fence about purchasing the SotM SMS-200.   Can you please PM with your experience as I don't want to derail this thread.


----------



## seaninbrisbane

My Ares arrived from Vinshine just a few minutes ago - it only took four days from order to delivery, so I'm quite impressed.  Nothing to report on the sound yet, as I haven't plugged it in.  A couple of things to note: build quality looks top quality, it's very heavy (for its relatively small size) and I think the font used on the front panel might have been changed.  The font is less Chinese looking and is more subtle now - nice!


----------



## soundfanz

Great Sean, hope you enjoy.
Listening to mine as I write this.


----------



## rudra

Anyone use HQplayer with their ares


----------



## thyname

rudra said:


> Anyone use HQplayer with their ares




Yes. Me


----------



## rudra

thyname said:


> Yes. Me


 
 Great, I have sent you a PM.


----------



## lukeap69

Since there isn't much traffic in this thread, I don't mind some discuss what source one use to feed the ARES. I believe we will learn what input works best with the ARES. Discussions about the player can be useful as well i.e. since HQplayer upsamples which ARES does as well, is it a good thing upsampling in the player or in the ARES? Just my 2 cents (or fils)


----------



## rudra

I spent about 3 hours with the different filters in HQP to get to upsample to DSD256.  Too early for me to comment on the sound quality. Currently I am trialling Roon and HQ player.  
  
 I have used Foobar, Roon and HQP with USB input at this stage on the ARES. With foobar I didn't like the sound when PCM was upsampled DSD256.  Since ARES only supports 44.1K DSD, 48, 96 and 192  needs to be converted to 352.8 before upsampling. Since we know that ARES does not OS DSD I prefer upsampling in HQP, Foobar or Roon. 
  
 Even though the DAC upsamples it all depends on what type of filter is being employed in the DAC. 
  
 Lots of experimentation is required on my part to figure out what sound's better. Long way to go for this audiofool. 
  
 BTW if anyone is interested https://community.roonlabs.com/t/what-do-most-people-use-hq-player-for/7393/40


----------



## soundfanz

I'm new to Dacs, and the Ares is my first. Have used CD players in the past to play digital. 
 I'm currently using Jriver, after importing all my files to it. USB port.


----------



## slex

lukeap69 said:


> Since there isn't much traffic in this thread, I don't mind some discuss what source one use to feed the ARES. I believe we will learn what input works best with the ARES. Discussions about the player can be useful as well i.e. since HQplayer upsamples which ARES does as well, is it a good thing upsampling in the player or in the ARES? Just my 2 cents (or fils)



I wouldnt stress the Ares with so many caps in it.


----------



## lukeap69

slex said:


> I wouldnt stress the Ares with so many caps in it.




LOL. You make a good point but perhaps those caps will hold their own. Hopefully...


----------



## seaninbrisbane

Anyone using Audirvana?  Just playing around with the settings and wondering what everyone else is using.


----------



## slex

lukeap69 said:


> LOL. You make a good point but perhaps those caps will hold their own. Hopefully...



I know its early but is Ares sound better then your audiogd DAC19? Any house sound signature you pick up?


----------



## lukeap69

slex said:


> I know its early but is Ares sound better then your audiogd DAC19? Any house sound signature you pick up?




I haven't compared them yet as my DAC-19 is in my bedroom HP rig and my ARES is in my small living room speaker system. I haven't been using much my headphone system lately...


----------



## oneguy

seaninbrisbane said:


> Anyone using Audirvana?  Just playing around with the settings and wondering what everyone else is using.


 

 i'm using it but with a different DAC.


----------



## rudra

right now Roon -> HQPlayer -> ARES upsampled to DSD256


----------



## gunwale

lukeap69 said:


> I haven't compared them yet as my DAC-19 is in my bedroom HP rig and my ARES is in my small living room speaker system. I haven't been using much my headphone system lately...


please do a comparison. thanks.


----------



## Mr Pluto

> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yes, in your speaker system please


----------



## Walderstorn

I traded a couple of emails with them but im still afraid of customs, sucks that they dont have a european storage somewhere.


----------



## hyperdanny

totally agree..I would buy a Venus right away....who knows? maybe, just like they picked up Holo, the Dutch guys at Magna will pick up Denafrips too...


----------



## lukeap69

mr pluto said:


> Yes, in your speaker system please




Looks like tunnels leading to different dimensions LOL. I bet that setup will blow my ears off!


----------



## slex

Remind me of this!


----------



## lukeap69

slex said:


> Remind me of this!




Hahahaha. Imagine a very small ARES used to feed that monster!


----------



## Mr Pluto

Here is a perfect match for Ares .....


----------



## seaninbrisbane

So I have finally managed to spend some time with my new DAC, using Audirvana and upsampling everything by powers of 2.  Great midrange, deep and tight bass - I am really pleased so far.  I cannot recommend highly enough.


----------



## rudra

Sean what are you upsampling to? Dsd256 or PCM 384. I have had good result with HQplayer. Tried HQP NAA. It was quite diferrent to running the dac connected to my main PC


----------



## Mr Pluto

seaninbrisbane said:


> So I have finally managed to spend some time with my new DAC, using Audirvana and upsampling everything by powers of 2.  Great midrange, deep and tight bass - I am really pleased so far.  I cannot recommend highly enough.


 

 Thanks for the update! Do you have some other digital to compare the Ares to?
 For the descriptions so far it seems that Ares belongs in the less forward, more musical, organic, relaxed an so called more analog like champ contrary to Oppo Sonica`s more upfront, extended, fast, pristine clarity and fine sharp details champ.
 Owners of Ares please correct me if I`m wrong....


----------



## seaninbrisbane

PCM384 at the moment.  I'm running the DAC direct to a power amp which has a basic volume control, so I need to make small amounts of digital attenuation occasionally.  I didn't realise that this isn't possible with DSD and Audirvana.


----------



## seaninbrisbane

rudra said:


> Sean what are you upsampling to? Dsd256 or PCM 384. I have had good result with HQplayer. Tried HQP NAA. It was quite diferrent to running the dac connected to my main PC


  

  

 PCM384 at the moment.  I'm running the DAC direct to a power amp which has a basic volume control, so I like to make small amounts of digital attenuation occasionally.  I didn't realise that this isn't possible with DSD


----------



## seaninbrisbane

mr pluto said:


> Thanks for the update! Do you have some other digital to compare the Ares to?
> For the descriptions so far it seems that Ares belongs in the less forward, more musical, organic, relaxed an so called more analog like champ contrary to Oppo Sonica`s more upfront, extended, fast, pristine clarity and fine sharp details champ.
> Owners of Ares please correct me if I`m wrong....


 

 Sorry, I've chopped and changed my system a bit recently, so it would be difficult to make comparisons with my previous DACs (including Metrum Octave, Audio-gd Ref 5 and 7).


----------



## seaninbrisbane

mr pluto said:


> Thanks for the update! Do you have some other digital to compare the Ares to?
> For the descriptions so far it seems that Ares belongs in the less forward, more musical, organic, relaxed an so called more analog like champ contrary to Oppo Sonica`s more upfront, extended, fast, pristine clarity and fine sharp details champ.
> Owners of Ares please correct me if I`m wrong....


 
 Sorry, I have chopped and changed my system a lot recently, so am unable to make direct comparisons to previous DACs (Metrum Octave, Audio-gd Ref 5/7).


----------



## alvin1118

Sean, glad that you enjoy the Ares!


----------



## seaninbrisbane

alvin1118 said:


> Sean, glad that you enjoy the Ares!


 

 It's a pretty special DAC


----------



## Mr Pluto

seaninbrisbane said:


> Sorry, I have chopped and changed my system a lot recently, so am unable to make direct comparisons to previous DACs (Metrum Octave, Audio-gd Ref 5/7).


 

 OK, but how about comparison by memory?


----------



## abartels

hyperdanny said:


> Maybe, just like they picked up Holo, the Dutch guys at Magna will pick up Denafrips too...


 
  
 No they won't, I did try to convince Jos from Magna Hifi, but he wasn't interested to expand their line with a DAC-Line since they already have Audio-GD and Holo.
 Btw, Holo has 3 years of warranty, which in my opinion, for Asia audio goods, is exceptional and VERY welcomed by many dealers.
  
 I'm very confident if Frenadips, eh, Denafrips, would change their name in a more "conventional" one, and would change their warranty policy to 3-years,
 they would have much more potentially interested customers, including myself.
  
 I'm not going to invest in a Terminator which maybe will terminate itself after 2 1/2 years of heavy usage, even if it would be the best sounding dac available below 10K.
  
 Just my 2 cents...


----------



## lukeap69

abartels said:


> No they won't, I did try to convince Jos from Magna Hifi, but he wasn't interested to expand their line with a DAC-Line since they already have Audio-GD and Holo.
> Btw, Holo has 3 years of warranty, which in my opinion, for Asia audio goods, is exceptional and VERY welcomed by many dealers.
> 
> I'm very confident if Frenadips, eh, Denafrips, would change their name in a more "conventional" one, and would change their warranty policy to 3-years,
> ...




When I first inquired about Holo Spring from an HK supplier, their warranty was only for one year but I negotiated for 3 years. Same with the ARES, initially I was offered a one year warranty which was extended to 3 yrs upon discussion. I guess what I am trying to say is, there may be chance to discuss with the dealer if you think 1 year warranty is not enough.


----------



## Mr Pluto

> Originally Posted by *abartels* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> I'm very confident if Frenadips, eh, Denafrips, would change their name in a more "conventional" one, and would change their warranty policy to 3-years,
> they would have much more potentially interested customers, including myself.


 
 Absolutely agree and I also recommend a new name:_* Denta Frip *_


----------



## Light - Man

And also the Big-Big question, how does the Ares compare to the Mighty *Yggy???*
  
  
 p.s.  why are some of you guys obsessed with upsampling (and DSD) - do you think it improves the sound on the Ares?* *


----------



## slex

light - man said:


> And also the Big-Big question, how does the Ares compare to the Mighty *Yggy???*
> 
> 
> p.s.  why are some of you guys obsessed with upsampling (and DSD) - do you think it improves the sound on the Ares?* *




Maybe it has a meaner buritoes


----------



## slex

Yessh 3 years free of mind warranty...

https://www.vinshineaudio.com/forum/denafrips/read-me


----------



## lukeap69

slex said:


> Yessh 3 years free of mind warranty...
> 
> https://www.vinshineaudio.com/forum/denafrips/read-me




Yep, Alvin just notified me about it as well. Good quick response from Vinshine!


----------



## abartels

slex said:


> Yessh 3 years free of mind warranty...
> 
> https://www.vinshineaudio.com/forum/denafrips/read-me


 
  
 We ask, we get


----------



## PitBul34

mr pluto said:


> For the descriptions so far it seems that Ares belongs in the less forward, more musical, organic, relaxed an so called more analog like champ contrary to Oppo Sonica`s more upfront, extended, fast, pristine clarity and fine sharp details champ.
> Owners of Ares please correct me if I`m wrong....


 
 Correct


----------



## slex

If Ares OS is so good, what are the chance of hearing better with NOS mode on thier higher range tomahawk.

Mikhail , can chime in? That denaflip you give your brother has a NOS mode?


----------



## abartels

Still one big leap to take, the brandname.....
  
  
 A good brandname is more important than most companies realize. It's the foundation and base which can lead to a commercial success or a disaster.
 It's the difference between a company that will grow and expand in comparisson to one that isn't, and eventually will disappear from the market, or just
 sells to it's domestic market.
  
 The products already have started to sell by themselves, because of their sound quality and special design, but, I am almost sure it will end, or at least,
 it won't be a hype to buy one.
  
 Take, for example, Audio-GD, which isn't a real bad brandname to begin with (but it also isn't the best), they are well know in the DIY scene, but, why
 is it you won't find them in a shop, showed next to the BIG NAMES? I don't think it is because of their sound quality or overall build quality,,,,,
  
 I think Denafrips should consider this. Also, there's a big difference between a brandname that isn't catchy or a one that sounds just horrible.
 In my opinion this brandname sounds just horrible and won't stay in peoples minds.
  
 Further, something to consider, western people do have a very different look at brandnames. Where Asian people often use a straight translation from
 their native language into English, which can sound horrible (and mostly are meaningless), western people always try to relate the products with it's name.
 As noted earlier by several thread members, denafrips as brandname, could refer to some kind of Dental thing, which isn't exactly the market to sell to...
  
  
  
 I am not trying to offend anybody, in any way, just would love to see the brandname changed and conquer the whole audio world!


----------



## soundfanz

I see no need for a name change.
If Schiit can use that title, I see nothing wrong with Denafrips.
I honestly can't find anything wrong with the name.
Good products sell themselves.


----------



## slex

abartels said:


> Still one big leap to take, the brandname.....
> 
> 
> A good brandname is more important than most companies realize. It's the foundation and base which can lead to a commercial success or a disaster.
> ...



"SCHIIT" catchy and abit taboo.


----------



## abartels

slex said:


> "SCHIIT" catchy and abit taboo.


 
  
 Yes indeed, that IS a good brandname, they thought it over!


----------



## abartels

soundfanz said:


> I see no need for a name change.
> If Schiit can use that title, I see nothing wrong with Denafrips.
> I honestly can't find anything wrong with the name.
> Good products sell themselves.


 
  
 just read this thread and notice how many people already did spell the name wrong,,,,,,,,, I even got an email from Magna Hifi which spelled it FrenaDips, sounds like some sort of dipsauce.....
 No, it's a very badly chosen brandname.


----------



## soundfanz

abartels said:


> just read this thread and notice how many people already did spell the name wrong,,,,,,,,, I even got an email from Magna Hifi which spelled it FrenaDips, sounds like some sort of dipsauce.....
> No, it's a very badly chosen brandname.




In your opinion. We'll leave it at that, shall we?
 I understand what you are getting at, but I feel differently about it.


----------



## alvin1118

*DENAFRIPS*

*D*ynamic
*E*xquisite 
*N*atural  
*A*ttractive
*F*idelity
*R*efined  
*I*ntoxicating 
*P*ure  
*S*ophisticated


----------



## slex

alvin1118 said:


> *DENAFRIPS*
> 
> [COLOR=000000]*D*ynamic[/COLOR]
> [COLOR=000000]*E*xquisite [/COLOR]
> ...



Are you describing someone like her


----------



## PitBul34

slex said:


> If Ares OS is so good, what are the chance of hearing better with NOS mode on thier higher range tomahawk.
> 
> Mikhail , can chime in? That denaflip you give your brother has a NOS mode?


 
 I can speak about the DAC-8PRO2 R2R only, because I didn't hear Tomahawk, Venus or Terminator DACs. As Alvin said here "The Ares upsample all PCM input to 768kHz. While the DSD is NOS." I think, DAC-8PRO2 do the same.


----------



## Light - Man

slex said:


> Are you describing someone like her
> No, more like this?


----------



## slex

pitbul34 said:


> I can speak about the DAC-8PRO2 R2R only, because I didn't hear Tomahawk, Venus or Terminator DACs. As Alvin said here "The Ares upsample all PCM input to 768kHz. While the DSD is NOS." I think, DAC-8PRO2 do the same.



Ok thanks ,i was thinking it has NOS mode on DAC-8Pro2. Im looking forward for some impressions on NOS vs OS of denaflips.


----------



## slex

Nice.


----------



## alota

abartels said:


> just read this thread and notice how many people already did spell the name wrong,,,,,,,,, I even got an email from Magna Hifi which spelled it FrenaDips, sounds like some sort of dipsauce.....
> No, it's a very badly chosen brandname.


 
 or also Denatrips


----------



## lukeap69

slex said:


> Are you describing someone like her




If you put it like that, then Denafrips is a good name.


----------



## abartels

light - man said:


> slex said:
> 
> 
> > Are you describing someone like her
> > No, more like this?


 
  
 I suppose the right one is Venus? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 NOW I want one


----------



## rudra

light - man said:


> And also the Big-Big question, how does the Ares compare to the Mighty *Yggy???*
> 
> 
> p.s.  why are some of you guys obsessed with upsampling (and DSD) - do you think it improves the sound on the Ares?* *




This hobby is a result of one's obsession. It depends on the equipment chain and the final receiving thing called the ear. There is theory & measurement and there is sound. Depending on which camp one is it all boils down to what the individual likes.

My suggestion to you is don't worry about other's obsession and do what sounds good to you.


----------



## rudra

slex said:


> If Ares OS is so good, what are the chance of hearing better with NOS mode on thier higher range tomahawk.


 

It would be interesting to know what type of filter/s is used after the upsampling in the dac.


----------



## bearwarrior

Does anyone have news about incoming Tomahawk? It seems that it will be a whole machine instead of 2 separate ones, which is different from 8 pro stack. I am not sure if they update anything in Tomahawk from 8 pro.


----------



## Mr Pluto

Bearwarrior,
  
 Instead of Tomahawk I would focus on Venus. My suggestion is only based by their spec because there is no owner feedback of either currently.
 Tomahawk has basically same spec as Ares nothing much more. But by spec Venus is a nice step above: native PCM & DSD decoding with _*0.005%*_ precision resistors, Amanero USB Interface and 26BIT  R2R +  6BIT DSD (32 steps FIR Filters).
  
 Just my 2c


----------



## bearwarrior

mr pluto said:


> Bearwarrior,
> 
> Instead of Tomahawk I would focus on Venus. My suggestion is only based by their spec because there is no owner feedback of either currently.
> Tomahawk has basically same spec as Ares nothing much more. But by spec Venus is a nice step above: native PCM & DSD decoding with _*0.005%*_ precision resistors, Amanero USB Interface and 26BIT  R2R +  6BIT DSD (32 steps FIR Filters).
> ...


 
  
 Thanks for the explanation. So Tomahawk has nothing related to 8pro?


----------



## Mr Pluto

Bearwarrior,
  
 I suppose that they are pretty much the same.
 PitBul has ordered the DAC 8 but having already ARES he gave DAC8 to brother.....
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Yep, he stated that it is better but based in my experience I can tell that if you want a clear step up then I suggest to save for Venus. These are just my presumptions based on spec. We have nothing more at the moment.
  
 VENUS Isn't she beautiful?


----------



## Mr Pluto

........I must confess, I actually bit the bullet and ordered ARES myself. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  

  
 So lets see how it competes with the big boys? 

 To be continued ...


----------



## bearwarrior

mr pluto said:


> ........I must confess, I actually bit the bullet and ordered ARES myself.


 
  
 I have to confess.... VENUS is just over my budget. I would probably order Yggy if I have the money. The reason that I am hesitated to choose a DAC is that I cannot compare the DACs I am interested. 
  
 Gumby, Ares, Holo Spring level 1 are the DACs I am considering. Don't know the performance ranking.


----------



## joseph69

bearwarrior said:


> I have to confess.... VENUS is just over my budget. I would probably order Yggy if I have the money. The reason that I am hesitated to choose a DAC is that I cannot compare the DACs I am interested.
> 
> Gumby, Ares, Holo Spring level 1 are the DACs I am considering. Don't know the performance ranking.


 

 Don't be afraid to buy without comparing. After all, how many of us can actually compare DACs before buying? We usually (at least I do) go by trusted others impressions on the forum, and there's usually a return option as well when buying new. I never realized how important the DAC is in a chain until I went in small increments throughout the years and ended up with the Holo Spring 3 "KTE". Best piece of upstream audio I've ever added to my chain, period!
  
 I'm not here trying to compare DACs in any way, just saying go for the one that best suits your budget/needs, and don't be afraid to buy blind.


----------



## Mr Pluto

I agree with with Joseph.
 Sorry this is a bit out of topic, but I feel that it must be said. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Not all of us live in London, L.A. or NY. so a listening sessions before purchase are limited for most of us. Therefore the worst and most common mistake that vast majority makes is purchasing gear only based on mainstream magazine reviews.


----------



## joseph69

Yes, I don't mean to throw the thread off topic, but the post I quoted did have the ARES and the Spring listed as one of the DACs of interest or I wouldn't have mentioned it.


----------



## Mr Pluto

Joseph,
  
 That's not your fault.
 I did it.
 If anyone is not complaining, then it`s all good ... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 No worries and be super positive!


----------



## joseph69

mr pluto said:


> Joseph,
> 
> That's not your fault.
> I did it.
> ...


 

 Cool!


----------



## Mr Pluto

THX !


----------



## Mr Pluto

The shootout will come soon soon, so ......


----------



## alvin1118




----------



## slex

mr pluto said:


> The shootout will come soon soon, so ......




Vs


----------



## noneEggs

okay i'm sorry if this is kind of a newbie question but why does Ares have 2 Coaxial input ?


----------



## lukeap69

noneeggs said:


> okay i'm sorry if this is kind of a newbie question but why does Ares have 2 Coaxial input ?




Useful if you have 2 sources with coax out.


----------



## krell1967

Delivered today, now it's playing in my system :regular_smile 
Thanks a lot to Alvin of Vinshine Audio.


----------



## abrusc

krell1967 said:


> Delivered today, now it's playing in my system :regular_smile
> Thanks a lot to Alvin of Vinshine Audio.


 

 Congrats, enjoy! What dac did you have before? Any experience with other dacs to compare? Thanks


----------



## krell1967

abrusc said:


> Congrats, enjoy! What dac did you have before? Any experience with other dacs to compare? Thanks



My actual dac are Mark Levinson 360S e Gustard X20U. In the next day I'll post my impressions of listening, a full review of the Ares also compared with my other DACs, and even with a Holo Spring Level one of my friend.


----------



## abrusc

krell1967 said:


> My actual dac are Mark Levinson 360S e Gustard X20U. In the next day I'll post my impressions of listening, a full review of the Ares also compared with my other DACs, and even with a Holo Spring Level one of my friend.


 

 Nice, thanks for letting me know. It will be great to read your impressions! Thanks again, regards


----------



## abrusc

krell1967 said:


> My actual dac are Mark Levinson 360S e Gustard X20U. In the next day I'll post my impressions of listening, a full review of the Ares also compared with my other DACs, and even with a Holo Spring Level one of my friend.


 

 The Gustard you have is this one?
  
 https://www.shenzhenaudio.com/gustard-dac-x20-pro-super-ultimate-2-x-es9028-xmos-hifi-dac-384khz-dsd-dop-decoder.html


----------



## rafabro

krell1967 said:


> My actual dac are Mark Levinson 360S e Gustard X20U. In the next day I'll post my impressions of listening, a full review of the Ares also compared with my other DACs, and even with a Holo Spring Level one of my friend.


 
 Hi, is your X20U modded?


----------



## krell1967

rafabro said:


> Hi, is your X20U modded?



No, it's original.


----------



## krell1967

@abrusc

No, mine is the previous version with double chip ES9018. However aesthetically they are identical.


----------



## krell1967




----------



## vexus

Hello together,

my name is Eugen and that's my first post here. I got my Ares some hours ago and I'm speechless concerning the details which are brought to my ears without any harshness. I compared it shortly with my Yulong D200 and my Chord Mojo. The Yulong can't compete at all but the Mojo is much closer.
I'll try to be a bit more specific later on.

Thanks again to Alvin who was performing outstanding with his support and service. I never had such a good service in my life online!

Regards from Switzerland
Eugen


----------



## gunwale

cant wait for more impression


----------



## syn959

krell1967 said:


> My actual dac are Mark Levinson 360S e Gustard X20U. In the next day I'll post my impressions of listening, a full review of the Ares also compared with my other DACs, and even with a Holo Spring Level one of my friend.


 
  
 Very interested and looking forward to reading your comparison of Spring DAC vs Ares. I've been intrigued with these two DACs since learning about them. Thanks in advance.


----------



## syn959

vexus said:


> Hello together,
> 
> my name is Eugen and that's my first post here. I got my Ares some hours ago and I'm speechless concerning the details which are brought to my ears without any harshness. I compared it shortly with my Yulong D200 and my Chord Mojo. The Yulong can't compete at all but the Mojo is much closer.
> I'll try to be a bit more specific later on.
> ...


 
 Looking forward to your comparison of Ares vs Mojo since I have Mojo and can use that as a reference. Thanks!


----------



## gunwale

@PitBull have you heard of PortaDAC 1704? have you tried any myst's product? if you have how does it compared to ares? thanks.


----------



## Mr Pluto

krell1967 said:


> My actual dac are Mark Levinson 360S e Gustard X20U. In the next day I'll post my impressions of listening, a full review of the Ares also compared with my other DACs, and even with a Holo Spring Level one of my friend.


 
 krell1967,
  
 Sorry it`s a bit off the topic but may I ask how the Levinson 360S compares to Gustard X20U?
  
 Seems the Gustard has also created a lot of buzz here and with Levinson I´m somewhat familiar.


----------



## PitBul34

So, it seems, I'm not the only one who like Denafrips DACs now


----------



## krell1967

My music room and my actual dac....


----------



## abartels

krell1967 said:


> My music room and my actual dac....


 
  
  
 Impressive!
 Are those speakers Infinity's? What kind of pre-power amps do you use?
  
 Very curious about the final comparissons


----------



## krell1967

abartels said:


> Impressive!
> Are those speakers Infinity's? What kind of pre-power amps do you use?
> 
> Very curious about the final comparissons


 
 My speakers are Infinity IRS Beta, preamp in photo is EAR Yoshino 868, now I have a Spectral DMC-20, amps are Gamut mono M250i and Gamut Stereo D200i.


----------



## Benny-x

krell1967 said:


> My music room and my actual dac....


 
 I am now extremely more interested in your comparisons. I would LOVE to have a set of Infinity Reference speakers... 
  
 And you said your friend's Spring level 1 would be featured too, right?
  
 Happy days!


----------



## abartels

krell1967 said:


> abartels said:
> 
> 
> > Impressive!
> ...


 
  
 Yes indeed, the IRS Beta's, LOVE them 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 Very nice that Spectral and those Gamut's power amps. Didn't heard of the Gamut's before, but looking at them inside, they've used my favourite buffer elco's from Rifa, the big white ones, absolutely TOP.
 And the use of NPN-Only, and only one per phase, that's very impressive!
  
 Think this is THE revealing set and review to wait for 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Cheers 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Alex


----------



## krell1967

benny-x said:


> I am now extremely more interested in your comparisons. I would LOVE to have a set of Infinity Reference speakers...
> 
> And you said your friend's Spring level 1 would be featured too, right?
> 
> Happy days!


 
 Yes, it's right, a friend of mine owns a Holo Spring level 1.


----------



## krell1967

abartels said:


> Yes indeed, the IRS Beta's, LOVE them
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks a lot Alex,
 It's a good setup and very revealing, stay tuned for my review.


----------



## abartels

krell1967 said:


> abartels said:
> 
> 
> > Yes indeed, the IRS Beta's, LOVE them
> ...


 
  
 You're most welcome!
 I definitely will stay tuned, promised


----------



## Benny-x

abartels said:


> You're most welcome!
> I definitely will stay tuned, promised


 
 This should be great!


----------



## PitBul34

gunwale said:


> @PitBull have you heard of PortaDAC 1704? have you tried any myst's product? if you have how does it compared to ares? thanks.



No, I have not heard it


----------



## Mr Pluto

krell1967 said:


> My music room and my actual dac....


 
 Great system, Congrats Krell1967! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 What are your findings on Levinson vs Gustard?


----------



## alvin1118

Impressive setup krell1967!


----------



## krell1967

mr pluto said:


> Great system, Congrats Krell1967!
> 
> What are your findings on Levinson vs Gustard?



Gustard in comparison to Levinson seems broken :wink_face:


----------



## krell1967

alvin1118 said:


> Impressive setup krell1967!



Thanks a lot Alvin.


----------



## fa02

The Denafrips dacs seem to be very well made, but do you know, if Denafrips will enventually add an ethernet input in the future ?


----------



## krell1967

fa02 said:


> The Denafrips dacs seem to be very well made, but do you know, if Denafrips will enventually add an ethernet input in the future ?



Do you mean an ethernet input as i2s input?


----------



## fa02

I mean an ethernet input as in the Oppo Sonica Dac.


----------



## krell1967

fa02 said:


> I mean an ethernet input as in the Oppo Sonica Dac.



Ok, an ethernet input as a network streamer.


----------



## Minbeo

@PitBul34 : I've seen that you have a Aune S16, i'm using one at the moment and intend to replace it with a R2R, do you mind a little comparison between S16 and Ares, what to expect?? Thanks you.


----------



## Mr Pluto

krell1967 said:


> My actual dac are Mark Levinson 360S e Gustard X20U. In the next day I'll post my impressions of listening, a full review of the Ares also compared with my other DACs, and even with a Holo Spring Level one of my friend.


 

 So, what are the first impressions of Ares vs Levinson and Gustard?


----------



## PitBul34

minbeo said:


> @PitBul34 : I've seen that you have a Aune S16, i'm using one at the moment and intend to replace it with a R2R, do you mind a little comparison between S16 and Ares, what to expect?? Thanks you.


 
 You may expect more microdynamic, more channel separation, deeper soundstage, stronger and more textured bass, neutral natural mids and more clear heights. AK4490 is a bit deaf relative to R2R, imo.


----------



## gunwale

any comparison with mojo yet?


----------



## noneEggs

pitbul34 said:


> You may expect more microdynamic, more channel separation, deeper soundstage, stronger and more textured bass, neutral natural mids and more clear heights. AK4490 is a bit deaf relative to R2R, imo.


 
 Sounds great, but what kind of soundstage does it feel though, the "standing in the middle of the music" or the "sitting a few rows back" kind of soundstage ? I wonder


----------



## fa02

krell1967 said:


> Ok, an ethernet input as a network streamer.


 
  
  
 Exactly, it would be a nice feature.


----------



## abartels

That is not a feature you're talking about, that is a completely different device, functionality and design. DAC vs Networkplayer.


----------



## Mr Pluto

fa02 said:


> The Denafrips dacs seem to be very well made, but do you know, if Denafrips will enventually add an ethernet input in the future ?


 
 Abartels is right. It wold be quite different animal then. Streamer/network-player with same quality dac as Ares will be much more costly. The best ones currently available from Lumin, Aurender, Linn Klimax DS etc.






*..... and The King of Them All is the mighty Burmester 111 *


----------



## alota

The ares works with android devices via otg? Thank you


----------



## fa02

abartels said:


> That is not a feature you're talking about, that is a completely different device, functionality and design. DAC vs Networkplayer.


 
  
 Yes, you're right, but i think or i hope, that in the future both functions (dac and streamer) will be merged as in the past for the CD player (dac and transport). That's another debate, but it will be nice if Denafrips will take this route.


----------



## PitBul34

noneeggs said:


> Sounds great, but what kind of soundstage does it feel though, the "standing in the middle of the music" or the "sitting a few rows back" kind of soundstage ? I wonder


 
 A few rows back in my setup.


----------



## rocky500

noneeggs said:


> Sounds great, but what kind of soundstage does it feel though, the "standing in the middle of the music" or the "sitting a few rows back" kind of soundstage ? I wonder


 
  
 I think that is really a combination of all your equipment and if using speakers then the speakers and room also play a big part in this.
  


fa02 said:


> Yes, you're right, but i think or i hope, that in the future both functions (dac and streamer) will be merged as in the past for the CD player (dac and transport). That's another debate, but it will be nice if Denafrips will take this route.


 
 It is early stages with streamers and can be quite complicated to get right or working well. It seams even Oppo might be having some teathing problems with their latest device.


----------



## krell1967

Magneplanar and Ares dac, excellent!!!


----------



## Mr Pluto

krell1967 said:


> Magneplanar and Ares dac, excellent!!!


 
 Nice! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




It seems that you don`t suffer from deficiency of great speakers. )
 What are your first impressions of Ares vs Levinson vs Gustard?


----------



## soundfanz

Why all these posts wanting comparisons between Dacs?  This thread is full of them.
  
 Let the owners post their thoughts at their own leisure, and if they include comparisons between different dac's, all the better. 
  
 Or do what I did. Read a few good reports on the Ares.....and went and purchased one.


----------



## rafabro

soundfanz said:


> Why all these posts wanting comparisons between Dacs?  This thread is full of them.
> 
> Let the owners post their thoughts at their own leisure, and if they include comparisons between different dac's, all the better.
> 
> Or do what I did. Read a few good reports on the Ares.....and went and purchased one.


 
 Comparison is the real value. Someone may say "it's the best I ever heard". So what this mean? Is the best for him the best for you?
  
 If you compare to some known stuff we know what you talking about..and where is reference point...


----------



## krell1967

The comparison between Ares and Levinson might seem to learn, there are many differences between the two, first of all the price. Levinson had cost about $ 4,500 in 2000 year, the price of the Ares is only $ 598, so it seems the battle between a giant and a dwarf. I will not analyze the technical specs of the two, just search the net and find everything you want to know, instead I want to focus only on listening. The music that I listened ranging from jazz to classical also through rock in order to have a vision as complete as possible to the sound of the two dac. 
I started with Ares, the first thing I noticed was the way in which it returns the sound message, very smooth without any frequency which predominates over the other, never tiring but in the meantime, very detailed, very nuanced than with other dac (eg Gustard X20) they can not see. The soundstage is very good, deep and proportionate in three dimensions,
slightly set back quite rightly as it should be. The acoustic instruments are returned each with the correct timbre, the violin plays violin, nervous, high-pitched almost scratchy as in reality, the bass is deep and very controlled, the piano is played with the right dynamic, in short, everything seems to be in the right place . Even the wind instruments are returned in their entirety, harmonically very rich. Middle notes, joy and pain of the cheapest dac, are the highlight of the Ares, very balanced, the voices are very nice and with the right focus. 
To conclude this brief review I can only say that the Ares is an excellent dac, very well built like a tank, with an unbeatable value for money.
If you really want to find a flaw, I would recommend the manufacturer to make the written and the LEDs on the front most visible, it is just a tip of an aesthetic nature that takes nothing away from the excellent sound performance of this dac.
Turning to Levinson can only say that, to my surprise, that sounds very very similar to the Ares, perhaps with a hint of greater soundstage, but it's nuances, little details that you can see if you have a very revealing system like mine. I did not think precisely that Ares could compete with a giant like Mark Levinson, however that's it, more I listen to them and more I am convinced of what I wrote.
During the plays I also made a comparison with another my dac, Gustard X20U and with a dac of a friend of mine, Holo Spring level one, very similar technology as well since it is a R2R ladder dac. Well, the Gustard, unfortunately for me, is less on each parameter to Ares, impractical comparison. 
Holo instead plays very well, especially in nos mode, but Ares is better, slightly, but better in the acoustic scene, it is more refined and even more detailed. The high frequencies are more airy with Ares while Holo they are a little more sparkling, bass frequency with both are very deep and controlled, on voices Ares win again on points, with Holo you hear a hint of sibilance that instead there aren't with Ares. In the end I can say that both are two excellent dac, if there wasn't Ares I definitely bought a Holo Spring, but Ares exists. 
Ares has on his side which costs about one-third of Holo Spring, Ares sounds a little better, so the choice for those who want to buy a R2R dac without spending a fortune seems to be required.
In the coming days, being able to continue my plays, I will continue to write on the Ares sound that every hour that passes always surprises me more. 
Brava Denafrips, you made the center.


----------



## abartels

Well done @krell1967 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
 That's the kind of review I like!
 Can you tell us how many hours Ares is playing, in total, right now?
 Did it pass 150 hours yet? If not, it definitely will gain
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Oh, and, I suppose you used Coax-Spdif input? Or USB?
  
 Keep on the good work!
  
  
 Regards,
 Alex


----------



## Mr Pluto

Wonderful review, Thanks a lot @krell1967 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 We look forward to hearing from you soon!
 OMG......... I'm itching to take delivery of my Ares


----------



## krell1967

abartels said:


> Well done @krell1967
> :bigsmile_face:
> 
> 
> ...



Ares is playing about 50/60 hours.
I used Singxer SU-1 to coax-spdif input on Ares and Holo, Aes/Ebu on ML and i2s on Gustard.


----------



## abartels

krell1967 said:


> abartels said:
> 
> 
> > Well done @krell1967
> ...


 
  
 Hi Claudio,
  
 Wow, if Ares after only 50-60 hours of burn-in already sounds a bit better than Holo Spring Level1, then I can't imagine where it will end!
 All those caps in powerstage alone need a long burn-in time. Outputstage either, hope you still have the possibility after 150 to 200 hours to compare with Holo Spring!
  
 Thanks for this great review, can't wait for the coming ones from you 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Cheers Claudio 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Alex


----------



## thyname

Check this out folks:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/840079/fs-denafrips-ares-r2r-ladder-dac-ships-from-usa


----------



## slex

thyname said:


> Check this out folks:
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/840079/fs-denafrips-ares-r2r-ladder-dac-ships-from-usa



I got a feeling you going for Terminator


----------



## thyname

slex said:


> I got a feeling you going for Terminator


 
 ... or maybe for a Holo Spring Level 3. I don't know. Sounded pretty good in our local meet up last Sunday.
  
 I can't do anything though before I sell the Ares. Can't have the funds tied up.


----------



## rafabro

thyname said:


> Check this out folks:
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/840079/fs-denafrips-ares-r2r-ladder-dac-ships-from-usa


 
 Any signs of European distribution?


----------



## Robert McAdam

> I used Singxer SU-1 to coax-spdif input on Ares and Holo, Aes/Ebu on ML and i2s on Gustard.


 
  
 Claudio did you try USB input on Ares? What did that sound like compared to Singxer SU-1.
  
 The Singxer SU-1 gets good reviews with the Holo using I2s HDMI. The Ares does not have I2s HDMI and see you used coax input. I thought the main advantage of using the Singxer SU-1 was to use the I2s input over the USB input on the DAC.
  
 Although you can use devices before USB like the Intona.


----------



## krell1967

robert mcadam said:


> Claudio did you try USB input on Ares? What did that sound like compared to Singxer SU-1.
> 
> The Singxer SU-1 gets good reviews with the Holo using I2s HDMI. The Ares does not have I2s HDMI and see you used coax input. I thought the main advantage of using the Singxer SU-1 was to use the I2s input over the USB input on the DAC.
> 
> Although you can use devices before USB like the Intona.



Hi Robert,
I used the Singxer SU-1 because it gives me the opportunity to connect dacs simultaneously. 
With usb input Ares stand alone and Singxer plus Ares sound identical.


----------



## Mr Pluto

krell1967 said:


> Hi Robert,
> I used the Singxer SU-1 because it gives me the opportunity to connect dacs simultaneously.
> With usb input Ares stand alone and Singxer plus Ares sound identical.


 

 So if the simultaneous inputs are not needed then sound-wise Singxer SU-1 does not add anyrhing?


----------



## abartels

thyname said:


> slex said:
> 
> 
> > I got a feeling you going for Terminator
> ...


 
  
 Why would you go for Holo Spring Level3 when a not completely burned-in Ares already sounds better than a Holo Spring Level1?
 Level3 definitely will sound better than a Level1, but those differences aren't day and night.....
  
 Better invest in Venus or Terminator


----------



## Light - Man

thyname said:


> ... or maybe for a Holo Spring Level 3. I don't know. Sounded pretty good in our local meet up last Sunday.
> 
> I can't do anything though before I sell the Ares. Can't have the funds tied up.


 
  
 How long have you had yours and how many hours burn-in have you given it?
  
 I know one guy on here has the spring 3 and Ares and he seems to like them both equally in their own way.
  
 What do you not like about your Ares and could you improve your system in some other way?


----------



## lukeap69

I am probably in the minority here but I cannot find Ares to be better than Spring DAC. I have been playing them side by side for 3 days now. Ares is close but not better IMO. BTW, I am not using PC as transport. Again IMO & YMMV.


----------



## abartels

lukeap69 said:


> I am probably in the minority here but I cannot find Ares to be better than Spring DAC. I have been playing them side by side for 3 days now. Ares is close but not better IMO. BTW, I am not using PC as transport. Again IMO & YMMV.


 
  
 Hi ARNOLD,
  
 Is Ares new? I mean, it has now 3x24 hours of playing time?
 Is Holo Spring new too? 3x24 hours of playing time?


----------



## Light - Man

lukeap69 said:


> I am probably in the minority here but I cannot find Ares to be better than Spring DAC. I have been playing them side by side for 3 days now. Ares is close but not better IMO. BTW, I am not using PC as transport. Again IMO & YMMV.


 
  
 Thanks Arnold, when you get the time perhaps you might mention to us how they differ in signature?


----------



## lukeap69

Ares had been continuously ON for almost 3 weeks now, Spring since November or December last year.

IMO the Spring is more resolving and and has better (sweeter?) tone. Spring extends both in the highs and lows. The sound seems more cohesive than Ares although I can understand how others may prefer the more obvious 'focussed' sound in the Ares e.g. the bass seems more 'rounded' which works for some songs and not for others. The bass of Spring does not appear to come from a specific spot but an area whilst the Ares seems to provide a tighter bass. In many songs I like the bass presentation of the Ares, in some songs with already have tighter bass sound, not so much. It can sound like the bottom end comes from a small speaker in comparison to the Spring. The highs of the Spring seems to be smoother but slighly more extended. It can get a bit sibilant with some songs though but only ever so slightly. I find the Spring to have a wider soundstage but a bit shallower compared to the Ares.

Don't get me wrong guys, I like the Ares very much and I am keeping it but my Spring is not going anywhere. Perhaps the Ares will replace my DAC-19 in my bedroom headphone rig. Not sure yet until I have done a side by side comparison.

Okay same caveat applies, all IMO and YMMV.


----------



## abartels

lukeap69 said:


> Ares had been continuously ON for almost 3 weeks now, Spring since November or December last year.
> 
> IMO the Spring is more resolving and and has better (sweeter?) tone. Spring extends both in the highs and lows. The sound seems more cohesive than Ares although I can understand how others may prefer the more obvious 'focussed' sound in the Ares e.g. the bass seems more 'rounded' which works for some songs and not for others. The bass of Spring does not appear to come from a specific spot but an area whilst the Ares seems to provide a tighter bass. In many songs I like the bass presentation of the Ares, in some songs with already have tighter bass sound, not so much. It can sound like the bottom end comes from a small speaker in comparison to the Spring. The highs of the Spring seems to be smoother but slighly more extended. It can get a bit sibilant with some songs though but only ever so slightly. I find the Spring to have a wider soundstage but a bit shallower compared to the Ares.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi Arnold,
  
 Ok, it's clear to me now. For now it seems choosing between Ares and Spring Level1 is more a matter of taste, they are sort of on the same level. Only thing is that Ares is on one third of pricelevel of Holo Spring Level1.....
 Venus probably will be a whole different story, which is about same price as Holo Spring Level3.
  
 Thanks for clearing this up!


----------



## lukeap69

Oh if you talk about value for money, Ares for me is the clear winner. Hands down.


----------



## gunwale

i am still waiting for tomahawk.. which got delayed till end of the month. based on the review it's really tempting to get ares


----------



## rudra

Take one for the team @gunwale , buy both Ares and Tomahawk and do a review/comparison


----------



## abartels

lukeap69 said:


> Oh if you talk about value for money, Ares for me is the clear winner. Hands down.


 
  
 For me it's not only about value for money, bang for buck, but it definitely helps to choose between different devices 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 As always it is very difficult to make a choice, at least for me, I am constantly changing my budget for this kind of stuff, and, where will it end, hahaha
  
 For me, depending on how it will perform, is Venus the one which could be very interesting, but to be honest, hmm, maybe wait a little longer,
 put some more money aside, and go for the real deal, the Terminator, but that is a big step in investment.
  
 I myself am a kind of DIY guy (see my avatar), and looking at research & development you can see that, for instance Allo.com, is developing very good products.
 Upcomming isolator board for RPI/Kali reclocker/R2R dac in development/AK4497 dac in development/ could be very interesting.
 Looking at performance of my dac, based on heavily modded diyinhk AK4495SEQ dac, it is, untill now, the most musical sounding dac (it's a networkplayer)  I heard in my life.
  
 As I wrote to a friend of mine lately, I am very confident that there are many dac's available on the market that have better specs, maybe even better black background or even
 a little bit more detail, but, the sound it reproduces keeps you just listening.
  
 A quote from myself:
  
*"It’s just that when listening to the MonsterDAC it sucks you into the music, it doesn’t seduce you to listen to fragments and details,*
*it completely throws the urge to analyze it’s sound reproduction overboard*."
  
  
 But, still, it itches me to order a Venus, or even a Terminator.


----------



## lukeap69

@abartels

I'll be honest, I can easily hear more differences with transducers and amplifiers than DACs. Having said that, I am more picky with DAC when using my HD800 SD. Not so much with my HD650 or PM-2.


----------



## krell1967

mr pluto said:


> So if the simultaneous inputs are not needed then sound-wise Singxer SU-1 does not add anyrhing?


 
 No, Singxer improves the performance of your dac if that makes not good input, in the case of Ares and Singxer the usb inputs are identical (Xmos U208).


----------



## abartels

lukeap69 said:


> @abartels
> 
> I'll be honest, I can easily hear more differences with transducers and amplifiers than DACs. Having said that, I am more picky with DAC when using my HD800 SD. Not so much with my HD650 or PM-2.


 
  
 As always, the weekest link in the chain determines the final SQ. Sorry for saying but I don't even own a HP


----------



## gahan

My Ares just arrived yesterday, and the first impressions are really very good... Connected to Audio-GD NFB-1AMP and Audez'e LCD-4 makes an impressive sounding rig.


----------



## slex

gahan said:


> My Ares just arrived yestedary, and the first impressions are really very good... Connected to Audio-GD NFB-1AMP and Audez'e LCD-4 makes an impressive sounding rig.



May i know wats your dac before Ares?


----------



## gahan

slex said:


> May i know wats your dac before Ares?


 
  
 An NFB-1DAC. Very good Sabre implementation... Write my impressions in some days.


----------



## slex

gahan said:


> An NFB-1DAC. Very good Sabre implementation... Write my impressions in some days.



Ok thanks.As far i know now, this Ares is near or exceed Holo LVL1 but doesnt reach Holo LVL3's level....sure hope theres a gumby and yiggy for comparison.


----------



## gunwale

i havent got ares yet but will probably get one once tomahawk is out. depending on the price /spec and size i might get a tomahawk. i am new to hifi and my current dac is creative sound blaster e5. i used to like the eqs and effects but nowadays i am getting more and more towards being a purist... one day i realised my e5 sounded worst than my laptop sound card. it sounded less natural, imbalance instruments, weird emphasis on vocal and smaller sound stage...


----------



## PitBul34

krell1967 said:


> I started with Ares, the first thing I noticed was the way in which it returns the sound message, very smooth without any frequency which predominates over the other, never tiring but in the meantime, very detailed, very nuanced than with other dac (eg Gustard X20) they can not see.
> To conclude this brief review I can only say that the Ares is an excellent dac, very well built like a tank, with an unbeatable value for money.
> I did not think precisely that Ares could compete with a giant like Mark Levinson, however that's it, more I listen to them and more I am convinced of what I wrote.
> During the plays I also made a comparison with another my dac, Gustard X20U and with a dac of a friend of mine, Holo Spring level one, very similar technology as well since it is a R2R ladder dac. Well, the Gustard, unfortunately for me, is less on each parameter to Ares, impractical comparison.
> ...




My english isn't good, but now people can understand what I thinking all this time and why i've started this thread Thank you, @krell1967 !


----------



## tee79

Hi all,
  
 many times lurker, first time poster here. Very interesting product and discussion - many thanks for sharing your impressions.
  
 I listen to mostly classical and jazz on the MF M1(Intona+Regen+XSpdif on XLR) - SPL Auditor - Gen1 Beyer T1. I have been contemplating upgrading my MF M1 to something substantially more refined and probably more 'fatter' or ever so slightly darker sounding. So lately was thinking of auditioning e.g Audiobytes' Black Dragon(?), but now having had some impression on Denafrips, started having second thoughts -just maybe I should try Ares instead? 
  
 Question is - would Ares  sound slightly rounded or 'analog' than the M1? Or maybe someone has had some impressions between Ares and Black Dragon? The price difference between Black Dragon and Ares is of course more than double.. I'm aware these are completely different dacs technically. Choices, choices..
  
 Thanks for your thoughts folks and keep the thread alive.
  
 Regards,
 Tee


----------



## Audio-68

>


 
  


tee79 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> many times lurker, first time poster here. Very interesting product and discussion - many thanks for sharing your impressions.
> 
> ...


 

 I highly suggest you purchase a R2R dac.  Why not spend a few hundred $$ and purchase either a Soekris DAC1101, Denafrips Ares, or Audio GD Singularity 19? You'll probably be surprised like me that the R2R makes a huge difference in a good way.


----------



## zachchen1996

What would be really useful would be a thorough Yggy, Holo Spring LV. 3, Metrum Pavane, Terminator comparison / shootout.
  
 Despite the lack of any useful impressions, I'm most likely going to take a blind jump for the Terminator. (Gotta support my fellow Taiwanese! haha)


----------



## krell1967

pitbul34 said:


> My english isn't good, but now people can understand what I thinking all this time and why i've started this thread Thank you, @krell1967 !



Hi PitBul34,
also my english is scolastic level, I'm Italian. :regular_smile :


----------



## rafabro

tee79 said:


> Or maybe someone has had some impressions between Ares and Black Dragon? The price difference between Black Dragon and Ares is of course more than double.. I'm aware these are completely different dacs technically. Choices, choices..


 
 Black Dragon sound comparable with Auralic Vega if this can help you. Both very nice DACs


----------



## Mr Pluto

krell1967 said:


> No, Singxer improves the performance of your dac if that makes not good input, in the case of Ares and Singxer the usb inputs are identical (Xmos U208).


 
  
 Krell1968,

 Can you please specify what you mean by "_if that makes not good input_"? Are you telling that Ares has some inputs that can be improved if the data/signal is sent via Singxer?
 Basically I want to connect my smart TV via optical and my CD player via coax or optical to Ares.
  
 As far I know Ares does not re-clock the incoming data and TV output (as laptop USB output also) is full of horrible jitter....... 
  
 Does the Singxer re-clock or what it actually does?


----------



## tee79

rafabro said:


> Black Dragon sound comparable with Auralic Vega if this can help you. Both very nice DACs


 

 Thanks! How would you suspect these in context compare to Ares? Brighter or darker would you think overall?
  
 Cheers
 Tee


----------



## tee79

audio-68 said:


> I highly suggest you purchase a R2R dac.  Why not spend a few hundred $$ and purchase either a Soekris DAC1101, Denafrips Ares, or Audio GD Singularity 19? You'll probably be surprised like me that the R2R makes a huge difference in a good way.


 

 Thanks very much, I might in the end purchase Ares and compare that to a loaner Dragon?? Will see.
  
 Regards


----------



## joseph69

mr pluto said:


> Does the Singxer re-clock or what it actually does?


 
 Yes, the Singxer is a re-clocker.
(HERE) is the description..


----------



## PitBul34

I've got today a new 10'' fullrange seakers LM1045 (95 Db, paper cone) handcrafted by russian AIE team (based in St.-Petersburg, Russia); wanna make some tests with Ares tomorrow.


----------



## LoryWiv

mr pluto said:


> So if the simultaneous inputs are not needed then sound-wise Singxer SU-1 does not add anyrhing?


 

 I think the Singer & the Ares use the same XMOS chip, but advantage of the Singer would be if you wanted to connect the Ares via I2S or some other connector than USB.


----------



## PitBul34

lorywiv said:


> I think the Singer & the Ares use the same XMOS chip, but advantage of the Singer would be if you wanted to connect the Ares via I2S or some other connector than USB.


 
 Ares doesn't have IIS


----------



## rafabro

lorywiv said:


> I think the Singer & the Ares use the same XMOS chip, but advantage of the Singer would be if you wanted to connect the Ares via I2S or some other connector than USB.


 
 Clock and power supply makes difference....


----------



## LoryWiv

pitbul34 said:


> Ares doesn't have IIS


 
 Point taken. I am considering using Singxer SU-1 IIS with a different DAC that does. Narrowing options to a short list currently including Gustard A20H or Matrix X-Sabre Pro, but still researching other options including the Ares.


----------



## thyname

abartels said:


> Why would you go for Holo Spring Level3 when a not completely burned-in Ares already sounds better than a Holo Spring Level1?
> Level3 definitely will sound better than a Level1, but those differences aren't day and night.....
> 
> Better invest in Venus or Terminator




Guys:

Please don't take this wrong. I liked Ares. It was more of a test for R2R technology. Now that I know what it is, and how it sounds, ready to take the plunge, and get the higher end R2R DAC , what I really wanted all along.

BTW, Ares is sold. Today.


----------



## rudra

thyname said:


> Guys:
> 
> Please don't take this wrong. I liked Ares. It was more of a test for R2R technology. Now that I know what it is, and how it sounds, ready to take the plunge, and get the higher end R2R DAC , what I really wanted all along.
> 
> BTW, Ares is sold. Today.




All the best. Keep us posted if you end up buying the terminator


----------



## Mr Pluto

joseph69 said:


> Yes, the Singxer is a re-clocker.
> (HERE) is the description..


 

 Joseph69, Kudos for the link!
  
 It seems that Singxer has only USB input.
 As Singxer USB XMOS chip is same as in ARES it makes no sense to use it. At least in my case. My TV has only optical and headphone output. The USB-s on TV are probably only inputs. Another possibility is to use TV-s HDMI for digital audio output and convert it to USB to use and re-clock with Ares XMOS.
  
 Anyone know some HDMI to USB cable/converter for audio purpose?


----------



## ZGojira

- Denafrips dac-68
 - Holo Spring (from Wildism Audio HK, Jensen Caps + Silver Transformer)
  
 Impressions coming soon


----------



## gr8soundz

zgojira said:


> - Denafrips dac-68
> - Holo Spring (from Wildism Audio HK, Jensen Caps + Silver Transformer)
> Impressions coming soon


 
  
 Nice pics. I knew the Denafrips was smaller but nice to see them side by side.


----------



## ZGojira

Yes, the Denafrips is around half the size of the spring.
  
 The Spring feels at least 4 times heavier... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I didn't weight the Denafrips, but the Spring is almost 10Kg 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## Mr Pluto

As I understand the Spring is LEVEL 3 ?


----------



## vexus

I try to describe the differences between the Yulong D200, Mojo and Ares.
  
 The comparison was done on a iMac with Audiophonics USB Link on DAC, then to a Abletec ALC0230 Amp and to coaxial DIY speakers (nothing fancy but good quality).
  
 Yulong: has no depth in the soundstage and seems to be very upfront, the representation of metallic instruments (percussion etc.) is detailed but harsh -> fatiguing. Bass is detailed but not structured.
  
 Mojo: Good depth in the soundstage and seems to be slightly farer away than the Yulong, very musical and seems slightly rolled off. The presentation of metallic instruments (percussion etc.) is very detailed but still a bit harsh. Bass is detailed a well structured.
  
 Ares: Has a lot of depth in the soundstage and seems 1-2m farer away than the Mojo, the representation of metallic instruments (percussion etc.) is detailed and very natural -> No fatigue at all. Bass is very detailed and well structured.
  
 I had problems to explain my wife that this DAC should leave the room for the main system


----------



## gunwale

vexus said:


> I try to describe the differences between the Yulong D200, Mojo and Ares.
> 
> The comparison was done on a iMac with Audiophonics USB Link on DAC, then to a Abletec ALC0230 Amp and to coaxial DIY speakers (nothing fancy but good quality).
> 
> ...


 

i heard mojo before it is a little harsh. good to know that ares is less harsh compared to mojo. is ares as musical as mojo?


----------



## Mr Pluto

Thanks for the nice description Vexus!
  


> I had problems to explain my wife that this DAC should leave the room for the main system


 

 LOL I hope the problems were solved and you are well.........


----------



## ZGojira

Quote:


mr pluto said:


> As I understand the Spring is LEVEL 3 ?


 

 Level 3 (also known as the KTE/Kitsune Tuned Edition) is a "Model Name", or an "exclusive model" if you like, referring to a modified version of the Holo Spring that is sold by Kitsune Hifi.
  
 Kitsune Hifi, as I understand, is the official distributor of the Holo Spring in the US.
  
 I got my Spring from Wildism Audio HK, which is the official distributor of the Holo Spring in HK.
 They also offer modified versions, but do not give them a special name.
  
 The one I got has the Jensen Caps and a Silver Transformer. They also offer an extra modification in the form of a isolation transformer for the coax input which I did not get.
  
 As far as I know, the main (tangible) differences between the one I have and the KTE edition are the soldered silver internal wiring and and the special fuse that they use.


----------



## Mr Pluto

Wildism Audio HK calls it Stage 3
  

HOLO Audio – Spring R2R DAC – Stage 3 “Jensen Cap + 4N 99.99% Pure Silver Transformer Ver." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Holo Audio – Spring DAC – LEVEL 3 “Kitsune Tuned Edition” (Green Label “99.99% Silver” O-Type transformer)
  
 This model is the fully loaded version with Silver transformer upgrade and Jensen Cap upgrades.
  
 As the modifications are pretty much the same despite internal wiring and fuse I suppose they sound pretty much the same. May I ask, what was the price for Wildism Audio Holo Stage 3?


----------



## lukeap69

That's level 3. KTE is level 3 plus some further mods such as silver wirings, fuse etc.


----------



## Mr Pluto

Check this out:
  

 At this price, Terminator becomes more attractive


----------



## vexus

@Mr Pluto: I think I could solve it with my wife, I just need a second ARES or perhaps... a TERMINATOR 
  
 @Gunwale: No it's not as musical as the Mojo, it's even better


----------



## ZGojira

mr pluto said:


> Wildism Audio HK calls it Stage 3
> 
> 
> HOLO Audio – Spring R2R DAC – Stage 3 “Jensen Cap + 4N 99.99% Pure Silver Transformer Ver." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ...


 
  
 I got my Spring almost 10 months ago (when it first came out). Pricing would have changed by now.
 It's probably best to contact them directly 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## zachchen1996

mr pluto said:


> At this price, Terminator becomes more attractive


 
  
 Hmm, at that price I might have to jump for it!
  
 Do you know if Audio Broker ships to the US?


----------



## oneguy

zachchen1996 said:


> Hmm, at that price I might have to jump for it!
> 
> Do you know if Audio Broker ships to the US?




Would assume so since they gave the price in USD.


----------



## thyname

zachchen1996 said:


> Hmm, at that price I might have to jump for it!
> 
> Do you know if Audio Broker ships to the US?


 

Only Vinshine is authorized to sell to US. If you buy it from somewhere else, you risk not having any warranty


----------



## Mr Pluto

I suppose that they will ship anywhere. From the previous Facebook listing it seems these have factory warranty. What seems to be 1 year factory warranty vs 3 year from Vinshineaudio.


 Denafrips will sell direct also but I choose Vinshineaudio because of 3 year warranty. The customer service is also top notch!


----------



## zachchen1996

I'm not too too worried about warranty, I'll buy it from wherever I can get it cheapest haha.
  
 Slightly off-topic:
 I know neotech makes good usb cables, but does anyone have any advice for a good i2s cable?
  
 Just got official confirmation that Audio Broker is no longer an authorized dealer, ONLY Vinshine Audio.


----------



## joseph69

mr pluto said:


> Joseph69, Kudos for the link!
> 
> It seems that Singxer has only USB input.
> As Singxer USB XMOS chip is same as in ARES it makes no sense to use it. At least in my case. My TV has only optical and headphone output. The USB-s on TV are probably only inputs. Another possibility is to use TV-s HDMI for digital audio output and convert it to USB to use and re-clock with Ares XMOS.
> ...


 
 Yes, the Singxer has a USB input only, but also has an i2s output along with the Holo Spring having an i2s input.
  


zgojira said:


> - Denafrips dac-68
> - Holo Spring (from Wildism Audio HK, Jensen Caps + Silver Transformer)
> 
> Impressions coming soon


 
 As an owner of the Holo "KTE" I'm looking forward to reading your impressions between the two.


----------



## krell1967

Wrong post


----------



## krell1967

wrong post.


----------



## T Bone

So I read these two conflicting statements correctly - Denafrips says that if you bought from Audio.Broker you'll have to go to them for warranty work.
 Audio.Broker (in very broken english) seems to be saying that Denafrips is responsible for the warranty, not them.
  
 I guess buyers from Audio.Broker didn't save anything at all


----------



## noneEggs

wait so if i decide to buy one from Taobao. It is actually not from an authorized source ?


----------



## abartels

Just a comment on the Warranty, if I do remember correctly Alvin from Vinshine said:
  
 "Denafrips increased MANUFACTURER warranty to 3 years", which means if you have a problem you have to send the unit to the manufacturer, am I right?


----------



## krell1967

noneeggs said:


> wait so if i decide to buy one from Taobao. It is actually not from an authorized source ?



The only authorized dealer for all over the world, ruled Taiwan. is Vinshine Audio.


----------



## krell1967

abartels said:


> Just a comment on the Warranty, if I do remember correctly Alvin from Vinshine said:
> 
> "Denafrips increased MANUFACTURER warranty to 3 years", which means if you have a problem you have to send the unit to the manufacturer, am I right?



I think if you purchase from Vinshine Audio, in case of problems you have to send them.


----------



## abartels

krell1967 said:


> abartels said:
> 
> 
> > Just a comment on the Warranty, if I do remember correctly Alvin from Vinshine said:
> ...


 
  
 I really think that the first year is to handle by Vinshine, and the two following years by Denafrips. That is how it normally works.
  
 Maybe Alvin can shine his light on this


----------



## alvin1118

abartels said:


> I really think that the first year is to handle by Vinshine, and the two following years by Denafrips. That is how it normally works.
> 
> Maybe Alvin can shine his light on this


 
  
 Guys, all three years warranty shall be covered by the manufacturer DENAFRIPS. Procedure to file the RMA shall be coordinated with Vinshine Audio


----------



## abartels

alvin1118 said:


> abartels said:
> 
> 
> > I really think that the first year is to handle by Vinshine, and the two following years by Denafrips. That is how it normally works.
> ...


 
  
 Thanks Alvin for cleering this up


----------



## Mr Pluto

zachchen1996 said:


> I'm not too too worried about warranty, I'll buy it from wherever I can get it cheapest haha.
> 
> Slightly off-topic:
> I know neotech makes good usb cables, but does anyone have any advice for a good i2s cable?
> ...


 

 Well the price difference was only $15 when I ordered ARES so I choose longer warranty and super service. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Just checked, Denafrips has updated their homepage and it seems that now it can only be bought from their sole worldwide distributor Vinshineaudio.
 Congrats to Alvin and Vinshineaudio! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 PitBul34 took such a great pictures of the Ares that they are now used on official Denafrips website! Congrats PitBul34! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 LOL..... I think that now you have the right to charge copyright fees. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	









  
 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*zachchen1996*
  
 Totally agree about Neotech. It`s one of the few cable manufactures that has a real science and technology behind their products. Majority of other cable company's use their mono-crystal copper and silver in their most expensive cables.


----------



## PitBul34

> Originally Posted by *Mr Pluto* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> PitBul34 took such a great pictures of the Ares that they are now used on official Denafrips website! Congrats PitBul34!
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I wanna Terminator instead of copyright fees


----------



## Mr Pluto

pitbul34 said:


> I wanna Terminator instead of copyright fees


 

 Yeah, and maybe I should send you invoice for for legal advice..... LOL
 I suppose they are more than happy to send you a Terminator as agreed .....


----------



## Mike Nee

Hi guys, could any of you compare the sound of Ares to the Arcam irDAC (I not II)? http://www.arcam.co.uk/products,rSeries,USB-DACs,irdac.htm#productdetails

If not,than maybe to any other DAC based on Burr-Brown PCM1796? 

Thx, Mike


----------



## PitBul34

mr pluto said:


> Yeah, and maybe I should send you invoice for for legal advice..... LOL
> I suppose they are more than happy to send you a Terminator as agreed .....


 
 He Talks!!! That's the way I like it! ))))))
  
  

  
 T800 R2R discrete ladder brain chip


----------



## Mr Pluto

> T800 R2R discrete ladder brain chip


 
  
 That's a perfect match for Terminator! A must have for all Denafrips R2R DAC owners!!!


----------



## rafabro

mr pluto said:


> Congrats to Alvin and Vinshineaudio!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Maybe they will send all the rest of models to him to take pictures 
  
 Seriously, Venus and Terminator I believe deserve for some good pictures. Manufacturer and Distributor should think about it more.


----------



## PitBul34

rafabro said:


> Maybe they will send all the rest of models to him to take pictures
> 
> Seriously, Venus and Terminator I believe deserve for some good pictures. Manufacturer and Distributor should think about it more.


 
 It would be great, Huh-Huh )))


----------



## Mr Pluto

rafabro said:


> Maybe they will send all the rest of models to him to take pictures
> 
> Seriously, Venus and Terminator I believe deserve for some good pictures. Manufacturer and Distributor should think about it more.


 

 ............no, no, wait a minute I need to take my camera out.


----------



## Mr Pluto

> Audio.Broker added 22 new photos. 12 hrs ·
> 
> We have to say PLEASE FEEL FREE that all warranty from DENAFRIPS.
> Manufacturer cover the same warranty from any dealers!


 
 AudioBroker seems angry. LMAO ) 
 What they are trying to say??? So I can file my warranty claim to any dealer?
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	









  
 English is not my first language. And I apologize for my grammar and misspelling.
 ..........But AudioBroker needs someone if they want to sell something or/and represent some company officially worldwide.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Anyway, my Ares is already left LEIPZIG so its soon here ....


----------



## Mr Pluto

Here are some of my digital front ends that I have owned or still own (sry, there are more but these are on another PC`s HD).
  
 ,
  
   










  
 So.......... The competition to $600 ARES is most unfair.


----------



## gunwale

wow... you will need a terminator to terminate them.


----------



## zachchen1996

mr pluto said:


> Here are some of my digital front ends that I have owned or still own (sry, there are more but these are on another PC`s HD).
> 
> So.......... The competition to $600 ARES is most unfair.


 
  
 You plan on getting the Terminator to compare to the rest of your sources any time soon?


----------



## Mr Pluto

zachchen1996 said:


> You plan on getting the Terminator to compare to the rest of your sources any time soon?


 

 Ares is soon here so I will see if it`s something really special then I may aim for the Venus or maybe even Terminator as my main digital. I ordered Ares basically for my TV so I will not expect it to outplay everything. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I also need something smoother and not so ruthlessly revealing for medium and bad quality recordings.


----------



## gahan

Ares isn´t the best option for bad recordings...


----------



## Mr Pluto

gahan said:


> Ares isn´t the best option for bad recordings...


 

 Yep it probably isn`t. Something overly tubey sounding like CAL Sigma DAC will probably be better for veiling overly bad recordings. But fortunately I don`t have too many very bad recordings so I don`t need such extremes. Ares still probably is not so ruthlessly revealing and that enough for my task. This is just my speculation based on the owners reports so lets see.........


----------



## Mr Pluto

Ares just marched into the town and out of the box it already shows some of the strong qualities!
  

  
 Thanks to Alvin from Vinshine Audio for a top-notch customer service!


----------



## gunwale

mr pluto said:


> Ares just marched into the town and out of the box it already shows some of the strong qualities!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


any comparison yet?


----------



## pam1950

great thread, learned a lot, thanks guys


----------



## Mr Pluto

> any comparison yet?


 
 It`s cold out of box and maybe only 2 hours of playing time plus I have brand new pure silver xlr cables on Ares that need some burn-in also. I will let it play at least 24h before some serious listening.
 .............But the first impressions are positive.


----------



## krell1967

mr pluto said:


> It`s cold out of box and maybe only 2 hours of playing time plus I have brand new pure silver xlr cables on Ares that need some burn-in also. I will let it play at least 24h before some serious listening.
> .............But the first impressions are positive.



Very well, let us know your listening impressions


----------



## Mike Nee

mike nee said:


> Hi guys, could any of you compare the sound of Ares to the Arcam irDAC (I not II)? http://www.arcam.co.uk/products,rSeries,USB-DACs,irdac.htm#productdetails
> 
> If not,than maybe to any other DAC based on Burr-Brown PCM1796?
> 
> Thx, Mike




If not with Arcam irDAC, can anyone compare to Audiobyte Black Dragon, as a DAC only. Mentioning what amplifier was used, if possible.


----------



## Audio-68

audio-68 said:


> I just ordered the Ares from Vinshine audio, shipping to USA. Will compare with the new Audio-GD Singularity 19 when I receive it. Currently using Soekris DAC1101 which I really like. I'm skeptical if either the Ares or Sing19 can compete with the Soekris. I 'll let you know in a few weeks after I receive and burn them in.


 
  
 Last night I finally reached ~150 hours of burn in on the Ares; the sound has changed quite significantly from when it was new. Comparing it to the Soekris DAC1101 I'd say the Ares has the same detailed sound and good decay on instruments, but the sound of the Ares seems less forward than the Soekris. Here's an example of how they compare on the soundstage, listening to Joe Satriani's song Andalusia, the Soekris presents a striking amount of detail and clarity, and you can hear Joe's guitar coming from the left at mid height (horizontally), while the bass guitar is clearly to the lower right. Meanwhile, hearing  Joe through the Ares, his guitar comes more toward the center but still left at mid level and the bass guitar from the right but more centered and also at mid level. Both present a wide soundstage and good separation.
  
 When the Ares was new and only had about 4-5 hours, it sounded very detailed and sterile. With 150 hours it has relaxed into a warmer? sound. I'm having trouble describing it because I don't want to say muffled because I still hear detail, but the sound is certainly not bright and in your face. The Soekris seems more neutral but leans toward a brighter sound, but still very pleasing and musical in its own way.
  
 I probably have grown accustomed to a brighter sound because I have a somewhat bright and revealing system (Sonore MicroRendu into a passive pre Lightspeed Attenuator, McCormack DNA-1 Deluxe Rev. A, Magnepan 1.7).
  
 I'm not sure what else to say, I'll listen more and try to form a better opinion of the Ares. I should have my Audio-GD Singularity 19 delivered today, and I will report back in a week or so on how it compares.


----------



## Moochibond

audio-68 said:


> Last night I finally reached ~150 hours of burn in on the Ares; the sound has changed quite significantly from when it was new. Comparing it to the Soekris DAC1101 I'd say the Ares has the same detailed sound and good decay on instruments, but the sound of the Ares seems less forward than the Soekris. Here's an example of how they compare on the soundstage, listening to Joe Satriani's song Andalusia, the Soekris presents a striking amount of detail and clarity, and you can hear Joe's guitar coming from the left at mid height (horizontally), while the bass guitar is clearly to the lower right. Meanwhile, hearing  Joe through the Ares, his guitar comes more toward the center but still left at mid level and the bass guitar from the right but more centered and also at mid level. Both present a wide soundstage and good separation.
> 
> When the Ares was new and only had about 4-5 hours, it sounded very detailed and sterile. With 150 hours it has relaxed into a warmer? sound. I'm having trouble describing it because I don't want to say muffled because I still hear detail, but the sound is certainly not bright and in your face. The Soekris seems more neutral but leans toward a brighter sound, but still very pleasing and musical in its own way.
> 
> ...


 
 Nice - thank you for your impressions will be very interesting to hear your thoughts once the A GD S19 is thrown into the mix
  
 Thanks!


----------



## Minbeo

audio-68 said:


> Here's an example of how they compare on the soundstage, listening to Joe Satriani's song Andalusia, the Soekris presents a striking amount of detail and clarity, and you can hear Joe's guitar coming from the left at mid height (horizontally), while the bass guitar is clearly to the lower right. Meanwhile, hearing  Joe through the Ares, his guitar comes more toward the center but still left at mid level and the bass guitar from the right but more centered and also at mid level. Both present a wide soundstage and good separation.


 
 I tried the song on my Aune S16+HD800 and it sounds the same as your Soekris, Joe's guitar sound very upfont & clearly from the left little above eyes height, drums're at the centre & pushed back, bass guitar's from the right and at about nose tip lvl height. Headphones gonna sound clearly 3 blobs than speakers.


----------



## Audio-68

minbeo said:


> I tried the song on my Aune S16+HD800 and it sounds the same as your Soekris, Joe's guitar sound very upfont & clearly from the left little above eyes height, drums're at the centre & pushed back, bass guitar's from the right and at about nose tip lvl height. Headphones gonna sound clearly 3 blobs than speakers.


 

 Thanks for your impressions. I find that song was recorded well, don't you agree?
  
  I really like the Soekris, but for my system I think I'm going to use the Ares for now until I compare with the A GD S19. I've decided to sell the Soekris to fund another dac purchase and I'm up for suggestions, maybe the Aune?


----------



## Minbeo

audio-68 said:


> Thanks for your impressions. I find that song was recorded well, don't you agree?
> 
> I really like the Soekris, but for my system I think I'm going to use the Ares for now until I compare with the A GD S19. I've decided to sell the Soekris to fund another dac purchase and I'm up for suggestions, maybe the Aune?


 

 Yeah, i like the song.
 Aune has no R2R offer and i'm trying to replace the S16 too, really like the Schiit Gungnir Multibit but it cost 1500$ here so Ares or Audiogd S19 gonna save me alot of money.


----------



## gunwale

audio-68 said:


> Last night I finally reached ~150 hours of burn in on the Ares; the sound has changed quite significantly from when it was new. Comparing it to the Soekris DAC1101 I'd say the Ares has the same detailed sound and good decay on instruments, but the sound of the Ares seems less forward than the Soekris. Here's an example of how they compare on the soundstage, listening to Joe Satriani's song Andalusia, the Soekris presents a striking amount of detail and clarity, and you can hear Joe's guitar coming from the left at mid height (horizontally), while the bass guitar is clearly to the lower right. Meanwhile, hearing  Joe through the Ares, his guitar comes more toward the center but still left at mid level and the bass guitar from the right but more centered and also at mid level. Both present a wide soundstage and good separation.
> 
> When the Ares was new and only had about 4-5 hours, it sounded very detailed and sterile. With 150 hours it has relaxed into a warmer? sound. I'm having trouble describing it because I don't want to say muffled because I still hear detail, but the sound is certainly not bright and in your face. The Soekris seems more neutral but leans toward a brighter sound, but still very pleasing and musical in its own way.
> 
> ...


cant wait for your comparison


----------



## ZGojira

zgojira said:


> - Denafrips dac-68
> - Holo Spring (from Wildism Audio HK, Jensen Caps + Silver Transformer)
> 
> Impressions coming soon


 
  
*Here comes the initial impressions *




  
_The Spring has been well burnt-in, whiles the DAC-68 has less than 12 hours on it. So if the difference is anything after pre- and post- burn-in differences on the Spring, there could be quite some change _
  
 Main listening gear was a pair of Stax SR-001 mk2. Source was either from PC (USB) or Fiio X5 (Coax). Since the DAC-68 is not burnt-in yet, the more serious comparisons will have to come later 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 When that happens, a full desktop setup will be used 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  
*Sound*
 The Spring has a wider sound-stage, and sounds more 'refined'. It also sounds more "realistic" compared to the DAC-86, i.e. things sound more like a live performance rather than a recording.
 Bass is also stronger on the Spring, it's more bodied. The DAC-68 in comparison sounds slightly more lean, but the detail is around the same level. I find that a more bodied bass does give a more engaging experience, but this is purely personal preference.
  
 The DAC-68 sounds more centered, and mid focused. Certain details tend to jump out at you, as opposed to the spring where everything is just there for you to discover.  Again, this is will depend on preference.
  
 Interestingly, I find that the DAC-68 reminds me of the Spring in OS PCM mode. So the differences might actually be more on the filters used than the architecture of the dac.  So from my guess is that NOS vs OS makes more of a difference than DS vs R2R. I didn't try any DSDs, but probably will when the detailed comparisons are done. Note that DSD sounds amazing on the spring 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
_*Other Observations*_
 - The Spring runs warm (even in standby mode), the DAC-68 runs so cool, you would not even know it had been on even after a long time.
 - The DAC-68 goes into standby mode when there's no input plugged in.
 - On the DAC-68, the SQ difference between USB and coax is _significant_





. I was shocked at how bad coax sounded. I haven't tested toslink so I don't know if that sounds any different. (unless you use a DDC 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)
 This difference between inputs has made me seriously consider a Singxer SU-1 for the Spring. But currently, coax and USB sounds about the same on the Spring.
 - The Spring is very heavy, the DAC-68 is very light (think solid brick vs empty metal box)
  
*TL;DR*
 For me the DAC-68 is not quite a Spring replacement/killer. I think this comes down to my preference of the NOS sound. Both are great products at their price points. You will get more than your money's worth on both products. Just get whichever your budget allows.


----------



## gunwale

how much is your spring holo


----------



## ZGojira

gunwale said:


> how much is your spring holo


 

 Do you mean how much it costed me?


----------



## gunwale

yeah what's the price tag on your spring holo or how much did you purchased it for?


----------



## slex

Anyone have compare balance and SE outputs on Ares? Any significant differences on SQ?


----------



## T Bone

zgojira said:


> - On the DAC-68, the SQ difference between USB and coax is _significant_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 While not an engineer, I would guess that this has to do with the implementation of the "receiver" chipset.  If poorly done, nothing is going to make it sound dramatically different.  
  
 Many Holo owners (myself included) have gotten the best results from the combination of the Singxer SU-1 and the Holo over an I2S / HDMI interface.  The advantage of the I2S input is that it essentially bypasses the receiver chipset and the signal heads straight to the D/A converter.   I recently tested this theory myself on my SU-1 by comparing the balanced AES input of the Spring which goes through the receiver chipset to the I2S input which bypasses it.   Hands down, the I2S input was more detailed.  Both signals came from the same source and passed through the SU-1 - the difference was the way that the DAC processed the signal.  Bypassing the receiver chipset made an audible difference.
  
 So all of that is the long winded way of saying that performance you're getting from the coax input on the 'frips _*may*_ be systemic to the design of the 'frips.  
 No amount of break in or "upstream" tweaking will fix a poor receiver design.


----------



## abartels

t bone said:


> zgojira said:
> 
> 
> > - On the DAC-68, the SQ difference between USB and coax is _significant_
> ...


 
  
 And, please do not forget, there's also a Transmitter chip which converts I2S into SPDIF at the source.......


----------



## ZGojira

abartels said:


> And, please do not forget, there's also a Transmitter chip which converts I2S into SPDIF at the source.......


 
  
 I'm confused now 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 So both the Singxer SU-1 and the DAC-68 uses an XMOS 208 chip.
  
 The chain on the Spring is:
  
 USB -> XMOS 208 -> I2S -> (Internal) DAC -> (internal) pre-amp -> outputs
  
 On the DAC-68:
  
 USB -> (Internal) XMOS 208 -> (Internal) DAC -> (internal) pre-amp -> outputs
  
 Where does the (I2S -> ??? -> SPDIF ) go


----------



## krell1967

zgojira said:


> _*Other Observations*_
> - The Spring runs warm (even in standby mode), the DAC-68 runs so cool, you would not even know it had been on even after a long time.
> - The DAC-68 goes into standby mode when there's no input plugged in.
> - On the DAC-68, the SQ difference between USB and coax is _significant_
> ...


 
 I have made your own testing and my results are completely different. Ares with USB input and Ares with coax input via Singxer sounds exactly the same way and I can assure you that my system is very, very detector and detailed.


----------



## ZGojira

krell1967 said:


> I have made your own testing and my results are completely different. Ares with USB input and Ares with coax input via Singxer sounds exactly the same way and I can assure you that my system is very, very detector and detailed.


 

 Yes, I would expect your system to sound the same since usb on the dac-68 and the singxer use the same usb chip (XMOS 208).
  
 My coax was tested using a Fiio X5.


----------



## abartels

zgojira said:


> abartels said:
> 
> 
> > And, please do not forget, there's also a Transmitter chip which converts I2S into SPDIF at the source.......
> ...


 
 I was talking about SPDIF, NOT USB, thus Coax/Toslink/AES
  
 SPDIF needs a transmitter-chip at source (DDC or whatever SPDIF source) which converts the native I2S signal into SPDIF format. At receiver side, thus the DAC with SPDIF input, there's a receiver-chip which translates from SPFDIF into I2S again.
 This translation technique isn't a 100% lossless procedure, it has it's own SQ influences, that is why direct I2S connection ALWAYS sounds better, *IF connections* (cable length, connector quality, shielding) *are properly made*.


----------



## rudra

slex said:


> Anyone have compare balance and SE outputs on Ares? Any significant differences on SQ?


 
 None if you volume match them. YMMV


----------



## krell1967

zgojira said:


> Yes, I would expect your system to sound the same since usb on the dac-68 and the singxer use the same usb chip (XMOS 208).
> 
> My coax was tested using a Fiio X5.


 
 Maybe the problem may be bad Fiio's coax output.....


----------



## Mr Pluto

rudra said:


> None if you volume match them. YMMV


 

 ..........Well, it depends. If your amp and pre are actually real balanced designs then the difference may be quite substantial. It also helps if you need to use a long cables. Plus if you use passive pre then the higher output voltage from XLR is also welcome.


----------



## rudra

mr pluto said:


> ..........Well, it depends. If your amp and pre are actually real balanced designs then the difference may be quite substantial. It also helps if you need to use a long cables. Plus if you use passive pre then the higher output voltage from XLR is also welcome.




I have a fully Balanced chain. Having said the I did mention YMMV.


----------



## Snicks

Hi all
 I am looking forward to listen to the Ares in my chain ... in the meanwhile a great thanks to Alvin for the quick and helpful reply !


----------



## iitime




----------



## iitime

zgojira said:


> I'm confused now
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

*Ares uses "*Ultra Low Jitter Digital Receiver AK4118" for all inputs that are not usb. 
 i.e. SPDIF -> AK4118 -> i2s -> DAC


----------



## rafabro

zgojira said:


> Yes, I would expect your system to sound the same since usb on the dac-68 and the singxer use the same usb chip (XMOS 208).


 
 Power supply and clocks matter more, then which chip was implemented.


----------



## abartels

rafabro said:


> zgojira said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, I would expect your system to sound the same since usb on the dac-68 and the singxer use the same usb chip (XMOS 208).
> ...


 
  
 Everything matters...........


----------



## PitBul34

> My coax was tested using a Fiio X5. 
  
 Quote:


krell1967 said:


> Maybe the problem may be bad Fiio's coax output.....


 
  
 My coax was tested using a Soundaware D100PRO Deluxe and shows an excellent sound quality of Ares. Most portative players has a very bad coaxial output, they can not be used in sound quality tests, imo.


----------



## lukeap69

pitbul34 said:


> My coax was tested using a Soundaware D100PRO Deluxe and shows an excellent sound quality of Ares. Most portative players has a very bad coaxial output, they can not be used in sound quality tests, imo.




I did compare D100 Pro/coax vs Surface Pro 3/USB last night. To my ears, the D100 Pro/coax sounds better; blacker background and smoother highs and a bit wider soundstage. Of course, this may not be because of the coax alone, the D100 Pro is a very good source IMO. Again, YMMV and all IMO.


----------



## Mr Pluto

The coax is great in ARES!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 So far, I´ve had the best results via coax spinning a dedicated transport. USB/XMOS circuit is not properly burned in yet so this may change.


----------



## lukeap69

mr pluto said:


> The coax is great in ARES!
> So far, I´ve had the best results via coax spinning a dedicated transport. USB/XMOS circuit is not properly burned in yet so this may change.:wink_face:




So I am not imagining things...


----------



## mrcrowley

Finally I get to read all the posts 
If I am not get wrong, Ares is not a NOS dac. Right ?
Anybody listen to a NOS dac like Metrum Musette and compare it to Ares or Holo ?
Thks


----------



## lukeap69

mrcrowley said:


> Finally I get to read all the posts
> If I am not get wrong, Ares is not a NOS dac. Right ?
> Anybody listen to a NOS dac like Metrum Musette and compare it to Ares or Holo ?
> Thks




Yes, ARES is not NOS.


----------



## Mr Pluto

mrcrowley said:


> Finally I get to read all the posts
> If I am not get wrong, Ares is not a NOS dac. Right ?
> Anybody listen to a NOS dac like Metrum Musette and compare it to Ares or Holo ?
> Thks


 
 Congrats! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Holo Spring has NOS and I can also see OS/NOS button on Venus and Terminator.
  

  
 I wouldn't worry about the NOS or OS so much. If implementation is done right both can sound good.


----------



## mrcrowley

Perhaps someone has written that Holo Nos beats Ares, instead Holo OS is very close or even Ares wins.
  
 Then my question about Metrum Musette. Venus and Terminator are out of my budget, and even Holo Spring.


----------



## rudra

lukeap69 said:


> Yes, ARES is not NOS.


 
 My understanding is that ARES oversamples PCM but not DSD.


----------



## lukeap69

rudra said:


> My understanding is that ARES oversamples PCM but not DSD.




That's probably right.


----------



## lukeap69

mrcrowley said:


> Perhaps someone has written that Holo Nos beats Ares, instead Holo OS is very close or even Ares wins.
> 
> Then my question about Metrum Musette. Venus and Terminator are out of my budget, and even Holo Spring.




I am one of those who prefer Holo Spring to Ares. I still have both and use them everyday. I haven't seen any comparison between Ares and Pavane but if you know the diffedence between Ares and Spring, there are some comparisons between Spring and Pavane, search @Torq here in HF or Google (can't say the name of the other site.)


----------



## desik

lukeap69 said:


> Don't get me wrong guys, I like the Ares very much and I am keeping it but my Spring is not going anywhere. Perhaps the Ares will replace my DAC-19 in my bedroom headphone rig. Not sure yet until I have done a side by side comparison.


 
 Hi, did you have a chance to do it? I had a DAC-19, eagerly awaiting your comparison.


----------



## lukeap69

desik said:


> Hi, did you have a chance to do it? I had a DAC-19, eagerly awaiting your comparison.




Sorry mate, I have been very busy and has not moved my Ares to my bedroom headphone rig yet.


----------



## PitBul34

@Ares_owners
  
 Can you guys take some photos inside your new Ares? We will compare a new Ares models with my first model inside.


----------



## gahan

pitbul34 said:


> @Ares_owners
> 
> Can you guys take some photos inside your new Ares? We will compare a new Ares models with my first model inside.


 
  
 My Ares received last week
  

  
  
 Greetings to Alvin for his great service!!


----------



## Snicks

Anyone here is from Germany? I ordered one and I am wondering about the duty...


----------



## desik

snicks said:


> Anyone here is from Germany? I ordered one and I am wondering about the duty...


 

 I am. But I'm waiting some reviews before jumping on it.


----------



## PitBul34

gahan said:


> My Ares received last week
> 
> Greetings to Alvin for his great service!!


 
 Good! It looks the same as mine.


----------



## Mr Pluto

snicks said:


> Anyone here is from Germany? I ordered one and I am wondering about the duty...


 
  
 In most EU countries it`s customs tax + vat = approx 20-25% of total if you didn`t use another methods for optimizing tax )
	

	
	
		
		

		
			










  


pitbul34 said:


> Good! It looks the same as mine.


 
 My Ares came with cones like under your DAC-8 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	









  

  
 My Ares is still running-in so I will look under the hood sometimes later....


----------



## Moochibond

desik said:


> Hi, did you have a chance to do it? I had a DAC-19, eagerly awaiting your comparison.


 
 Yes please!


----------



## seaninbrisbane

Does anyone know the purpose of the standby button on this particular DAC?  Does it reduce power consumption?  Loving mine


----------



## alvin1118

seaninbrisbane said:


> Does anyone know the purpose of the standby button on this particular DAC?  Does it reduce power consumption?  Loving mine




Yes power consumption is minimal when it's in standby mode.


----------



## seaninbrisbane

I've spent the whole weekend listening to this DAC.....it really is exceptional.  The Ares is highly musical, yet accurate (at least to my ears) and I think it might be better than the Audio-gd ref 7 + Singxer F1 that I had previously.


----------



## Snicks

desik said:


> I am. But I'm waiting some reviews before jumping on it.



Where do you live? I am in Berlin and mine will arrive next week. If you live nearby you are welcome.


----------



## rudra

seaninbrisbane said:


> I've spent the whole weekend listening to this DAC.....it really is exceptional.  The Ares is highly musical, yet accurate (at least to my ears) and I think it might be better than the Audio-gd ref 7 + Singxer F1 that I had previously.


 
 I agree that the Ares is musical yet accurate. The timbre of the instruments and the separation is great. When certain parts of the music get busy, it still manages to keep the details , timbre and separation.


----------



## desik

snicks said:


> Where do you live? I am in Berlin and mine will arrive next week. If you live nearby you are welcome.


 

 I'd love to, but that's unlikely.


----------



## Snicks

rudra said:


> I agree that the Ares is musical yet accurate. The timbre of the instruments and the separation is great. When certain parts of the music get busy, it still manages to keep the details , timbre and separation.



What kind of music do you listen? I am more and more curious to listen to it.


----------



## rudra

snicks said:


> What kind of music do you listen? I am more and more curious to listen to it.


 jazz, blues,rock,pop,EDM


----------



## seaninbrisbane

Is anyone else finding this DAC benefits from some burn-in?  I was seriously impressed with the Ares when it first arrived, but after a couple of weeks it seems to be even better.  Maybe I'm imagining it, I don't know!  I don't fully understand the technology being used and whether burn-in would even slightly affect the sound....


----------



## Mr Pluto

seaninbrisbane said:


> Is anyone else finding this DAC benefits from some burn-in?  I was seriously impressed with the Ares when it first arrived, but after a couple of weeks it seems to be even better.  Maybe I'm imagining it, I don't know!  I don't fully understand the technology being used and whether burn-in would even slightly affect the sound....


 

 No, no you aren`t imagining it. I´m not a blind believer in burn-in also. I just feel that there is not much real science behind it (aside from the normal cap recharge and warmup). ........... But in my experience Ares has transformed 180°. I`ve heard such big burn-in effect probably on speakers only. First few hours were absolutely critical. Highs were shrill and confused and I thought that it isn`t the right DAC for my TV and Computer use. Now It`s actually playing and even all the crap from TV-s music channels is absolutely listenable without a loss in details.
 The voicing balance of the DAC has absolutely changed no doubt.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 Mine still needs more burn-in for both SPDIF and XMOS circuits so I will post my feelings and report my shootout results sometimes later.


----------



## mrcrowley

How many hours does it need of burn-in ?


----------



## abartels

Somewhere between the fith and sixth day of total playing time it will be optimal, like all audio equipment.
 Some caps do need extreme long burn-in time, but, as said, most electronic components and such do perform very well between 5th and 6th day.
 That includes cabling AND solderjoints....
  
 Many disagree, because they don't hear the difference, which on it's own is a sad thing (bad link within the audio chain, or even worse, bad ears.....)


----------



## Mr Pluto

My experience coincides with Abartels. I also thought that 150h for SPDIF + 150h XMOS will be sufficient. I haven't seen equipment that changes much after 150h. But regarding to Alvin it needs 300h burn-in. That translates into 600h total. Who knows?
 Maybe PitBul34 can share his experiences?


----------



## Audio-68

seaninbrisbane said:


> Is anyone else finding this DAC benefits from some burn-in?  I was seriously impressed with the Ares when it first arrived, but after a couple of weeks it seems to be even better.  Maybe I'm imagining it, I don't know!  I don't fully understand the technology being used and whether burn-in would even slightly affect the sound....


 
  
 I heard a significant difference after 150 hours, the Ares when new was forward, digital and bright , now has more of an analogue sound. I'm especially impressed right now with its deep, powerful and clear bass.


----------



## krell1967

My Ares after 150 hours burn-in sounds simply fabolous


----------



## willsw

mrcrowley said:


> Finally I get to read all the posts
> If I am not get wrong, Ares is not a NOS dac. Right ?
> Anybody listen to a NOS dac like Metrum Musette and compare it to Ares or Holo ?
> Thks


 
  
 I could compare the Ares to a Musette, possibly this weekend. I was able to compare the Holo V3 and the Musette already. It was no contest. A fairer comparison would be the Menuet and the Holo. I have a feeling I'll prefer the Ares to the Musette, at least through speakers. I found that I preferred the MHDT Pagoda to the Musette when using speakers, which was primarily because the Musette displayed a loss of control in the bass that I had not noticed when using it for headphones. 
  
 In a fast comparison of a very fresh (<15 hours burn in) Ares and the MHDT Stockholm V2, using an MZ2-S and HD800 headphones, I felt that the MHDT was more pleasant and less harsh, but the Ares showed immediately a better bass presence (like the Border Patrol DAC) and had enough to make me confident that after burn-in this would be a DAC that would surpass the MHDT Stockholm. I have not yet done another test, though.


----------



## abartels

mr pluto said:


> My experience coincides with Abartels. I also thought that 150h for SPDIF + 150h XMOS will be sufficient. I haven't seen equipment that changes much after 150h. But regarding to Alvin it needs 300h burn-in. That translates into 600h total. Who knows?
> Maybe PitBul34 can share his experiences?


 
  
 Thanks Mr Pluto for backing me up!
  
 Also, dont forget, every input or output needs burn-in. When used COAX1 input 150 hours, compare it with COAX2 input, there will be a difference, not huge, but there will be difference.
 This also counts for AES and RCA, they both need seperate burn-in. And, as Mr Pluto said, USB input also needs 150 hours.


----------



## Mr Pluto

You`re welcome Abartels! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Agree, and in case of USB it`s even more than just a input. If you push some other input button on Ares then all the USB/XMOS circuit will be shut down.
 I also had all cables brand new therefore my burn-in impressions may be slightly bigger than with used cables.
 Just complemented Ares with nice LessLoss type solid core power cord made of Neotech UPOCC hookup wire.


----------



## abartels

mr pluto said:


> You`re welcome Abartels!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yeah, didn't realize the switch options!
  
 NeoTech has very good cabling designs, lots of know how in the house, very good manufacturer which also provides to many A-brand cable manufacturers which produce under their own name.


----------



## zachchen1996

willsw said:


> I could compare the Ares to a Musette, possibly this weekend. I was able to compare the Holo V3 and the Musette already. It was no contest. A fairer comparison would be the Menuet and the Holo. I have a feeling I'll prefer the Ares to the Musette, at least through speakers. I found that I preferred the MHDT Pagoda to the Musette when using speakers, which was primarily because the Musette displayed a loss of control in the bass that I had not noticed when using it for headphones.
> 
> In a fast comparison of a very fresh (<15 hours burn in) Ares and the MHDT Stockholm V2, using an MZ2-S and HD800 headphones, I felt that the MHDT was more pleasant and less harsh, but the Ares showed immediately a better bass presence (like the Border Patrol DAC) and had enough to make me confident that after burn-in this would be a DAC that would surpass the MHDT Stockholm. I have not yet done another test, though.




Would you happen to know how the Metrum Adagio or Pavane Level 3 compares to the Holo Spring Level 3?


----------



## desik

alvin1118 said:


>


 
 Hi Alvin,
 Any clue when Tomahawk will be released? Also, will it have 2S input?


----------



## mtruong34

willsw said:


> I was able to compare the Holo V3 and the Musette already. It was no contest.




Not apparent in your writing which was better.


----------



## krell1967

Tomahawk is released today, it has Amanero usb input and i2s input on rj45.


----------



## willsw

mtruong34 said:


> Not apparent in your writing which was better.


 
 I meant to imply that since the Menuet, a level above the Musette, would be a fairer comparison that the Musette was not as good as the Holo Level 3. I think the difference is primarily in power supply and quality of components, and that Metrum's DAC portion scales up very well. 
  


zachchen1996 said:


> Would you happen to know how the Metrum Adagio or Pavane Level 3 compares to the Holo Spring Level 3?


 
 I only heard the Pavane for a short time a while ago, so I could not comment on it or the Adagio. The Pavane was very impressive, however, and rivaled the high-end analog setup in the same room.


----------



## desik

krell1967 said:


> Tomahawk is released today, it has Amanero usb input and i2s input on rj45.


 

 Damn, why not I2S over HDMI? SU-1 has HDMI out.


----------



## rudra

desik said:


> Damn, why not I2S over HDMI? SU-1 has HDMI out.


 
 I would have preferred I2S over HDMI instead of RJ45 irrespective of how good the USB input was implemented


----------



## syn959

Looks like Tomahawk is now Pontus: Link
  
 Which is more in line with their naming. I wonder how long Terminator will stick...maybe change to Zeus?


----------



## PitBul34

I'm disappointed by 'Pontus' name  However it will be a good DAC with NOS mode and I2S input supported by my Soundaware D100 digital turntable, but I can not buy it because of name...


----------



## abartels

Probably Teeminator will be renamed to Hercules or Gladiator?


----------



## desik

pitbul34 said:


> I'm disappointed by 'Pontus' name  However it will be a good DAC with NOS mode and I2S input supported by my Soundaware D100 digital turntable, but I can not buy it because of name...


 
 Cmon, it's fun. I's something like Schiit in English.


----------



## PitBul34

desik said:


> Cmon, it's fun. I's something like Schiit in English.


 
 Maybe you're right, heh heh 
  
 666 comments up today


----------



## PitBul34

If you don't like Denafrips 'Ares' there is Armature 'Cronos' 
  
 http://www.audiophonics.fr/fr/dac-sans-volume/armature-cronos-dac-r2r-symetrique-xlr-24bit384khz-usb-30-xmos-p-11831.html


----------



## rudra

pitbul34 said:


> If you don't like Denafrips 'Ares' there is Armature 'Cronos'
> 
> http://www.audiophonics.fr/fr/dac-sans-volume/armature-cronos-dac-r2r-symetrique-xlr-24bit384khz-usb-30-xmos-p-11831.html


 
 ARES twin.


----------



## soundfanz

pitbul34 said:


> If you don't like Denafrips 'Ares' there is Armature 'Cronos'
> 
> http://www.audiophonics.fr/fr/dac-sans-volume/armature-cronos-dac-r2r-symetrique-xlr-24bit384khz-usb-30-xmos-p-11831.html


 
  
 Serious question. Is it just an Ares rebadged? And if so, how can they get away with that?


----------



## gunwale

soundfanz said:


> Serious question. Is it just an Ares rebadged? And if so, how can they get away with that?


 
  wow its the same thing...


----------



## Superdad

soundfanz said:


> Serious question. Is it just an Ares rebadged? And if so, how can they get away with that?


 

 Audiophonics in France does a lot of private labeling.  They rebrand Teradak power supplies as well.  I don't think they make a secret of it, and they are not ripping anyone off.


----------



## m-i-c-k-e-y

Good for us here in Europe. 

Saw a rebadged Halo Sabretooth too with the same "Armature" brand.


----------



## soundfanz

superdad said:


> Audiophonics in France does a lot of private labeling.  They rebrand Teradak power supplies as well.  I don't think they make a secret of it, and they are not ripping anyone off.


 
  
 If Denafrips have no problem with it, all well and good.
  
 But not ripping anyone off?  They've already added US $200 to the price charged by Dealer in Singapore.


----------



## bearwarrior

I think this one is 24 bit instead of ARES's 20 bit. Probably, it used the same PCM decoding as PONTUS. Please correct me if I am wrong.


----------



## krell1967

bearwarrior said:


> I think this one is 24 bit instead of ARES's 20 bit. Probably, it used the same PCM decoding as PONTUS. Please correct me if I am wrong.



Cronos is the clone of Dac68/Ares, it is not a 24 bit.


----------



## TheNidz

Official Ares shots on Denafrips website shows 'Armature' branding on the transformer.

http://www.denafrips.com/ares.html

So maybe some kind of co-operation between them?

P.S. Expecting my Ares in a week or so. Will compare with Ayon CD-5 CD/DAC.


----------



## hyfly

Hi,
 ok, first post for me, after a long time silently watching, how do i say it kindly? Pitbull, how dare you to be so good informed, i was in contact with audiophonics, about them to brining the Ares to europe, and they always said in X weeks it will come, i watched their site every day, but coming to headfi first i read this from you  
  
 there seem to be some differences to the original Ares:
 DC filterboard is missing
 caps are otheres
 black pcb
  
 i wonder if this is for better or worse


----------



## Mr Pluto

thenidz said:


> Official Ares shots on Denafrips website shows 'Armature' branding on the transformer.
> 
> http://www.denafrips.com/ares.html
> 
> ...


 

 LOL) The "official shots" are taken by PitBul34. So PitBul34 has a half Ares half Armature. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			











 I haven`t checked mine so maybe me too.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	









  
 Shootout with Ayon CD-5 will be most interesting. Please keep us posted!


----------



## Mr Pluto

hyfly said:


> Hi,
> ok, first post for me, after a long time silently watching, how do i say it kindly? Pitbull, how dare you to be so good informed, i was in contact with audiophonics, about them to brining the Ares to europe, and they always said in X weeks it will come, i watched their site every day, but coming to headfi first i read this from you
> 
> there seem to be some differences to the original Ares:
> ...


 
 Welcome Hifly! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 It seems that the pictures in Audiophonics page were taken from not fully assembled DAC.You can see that even transformer leads are not connected to the PCB. Caps and everything else seem same to me. 
  
 As mentioned before the black PCB is probably for blacker backround.......


----------



## Mr Pluto

bearwarrior said:


> I think this one is 24 bit instead of ARES's 20 bit. Probably, it used the same PCM decoding as PONTUS. Please correct me if I am wrong.


 

 It seems that the 24 bit info is a typo or something in the Audiophonics page. Resistor ladders etc. look absolutely identical to Ares. For Chineese manufacturers it`s quite common that something will be sold under different brand names in different countries.


----------



## lukeap69

mr pluto said:


> As mentioned before the black PCB is probably for blacker backround.......


 
 Hey, that is my line...


----------



## hyfly

thank you mr Pluto for clearing things up for me.
  
 *ordered* 
  
 PS:
 ive asked audiophonics too, heres their answer:
  
Hello,
 Yes, the Cronos is the EU version of the Ares.
 The filter board has been removed because not really useful, at the same time the transformer has been upgraded.
 Baptiste ROBINO​


----------



## Mr Pluto

lukeap69 said:


> Hey, that is my line...


 

 Sorry, I forgot who mentioned it but it was a good one )


----------



## Mr Pluto

hyfly said:


> thank you mr Pluto for clearing things up for me.
> 
> *ordered*
> 
> ...


 
 Congrats on the purchase of Cronos!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I`m sure you will like it.


----------



## Mike Nee

hyfly said:


> Hello,
> Yes, the Cronos is the EU version of the Ares.
> The filter board has been removed because not really useful, at the same time the transformer has been upgraded.
> Baptiste ROBINO​


 
 when it's said that the filter board has been removed - how is this going to affect sound? and has the filter board only been removed in Cronos or in Ares from now on, as well?
 Mike


----------



## hyfly

im currently using a modi multibit, i hope it will be a substantial increase


----------



## rudra

mike nee said:


> when it's said that the filter board has been removed - how is this going to affect sound? and has the filter board only been removed in Cronos or in Ares from now on, as well?
> Mike




I am curious to know


----------



## hyfly

mike nee said:


> when it's said that the filter board has been removed - how is this going to affect sound? and has the filter board only been removed in Cronos or in Ares from now on, as well?
> Mike


 

 the filter is only usefull if your ac power, is polluted with the noise wich is suitable for the filter. so i think it will depend on your ac power what change it will bring or if you can hear it.
 im using an belkin pureav pf50 already, so for me i think i can life without extra filters, to much filtering can decrease se sound dynamics.


----------



## Mike Nee

hyfly said:


> the filter is only usefull if your ac power, is polluted with the noise wich is suitable for the filter. so i think it will depend on your ac power what change it will bring or if you can hear it.
> im using an belkin pureav pf50 already, so for me i think i can life without extra filters, to much filtering can decrease se sound dynamics.




Has this been done to Cronos only or to Ares as well?


----------



## hyfly

mike nee said:


> Has this been done to Cronos only or to Ares as well?


 

 he spoke of an EU version, so its likely different to Ares.
  
 only time can tell, or Pitbul, hes faster then time


----------



## Mr Pluto

mike nee said:


> Has this been done to Cronos only or to Ares as well?


 

 Yeah, Maybe Alvin will chime in to give the real answer. Is our beloved Ares emasculated by a French or by Factory?


----------



## abartels

hyfly said:


> mike nee said:
> 
> 
> > when it's said that the filter board has been removed - how is this going to affect sound? and has the filter board only been removed in Cronos or in Ares from now on, as well?
> ...


 
  
 I partly disagree.
  
 AC power pollution not only depends on the power fed into your house, but also depends on all home appliances connected to your mains.
 Further more, sometimes even more important, EMI/RFI as called High Frequency Radiation, which is EVERYWHERE around us, such as Cellular networks,
 AM-FM radio signals etc. DO influence EVERY cable connected to your audio equipment. Thus, also main power cables.
  
 HF travels through transformers, psu's and electronics, and influences A LOT.
 Example: A wideband Poweramp, DC to 350kHz or so, DOES amplify all incoming signals, thus also HF that travelled through mains.
  
 I myself own a PF50 too, and I agree, it does a good job, I also agree that too much filtering CAN degrade SQ, BUT, a proper designed AC-filter, designed
 specific for ONE device, will increase SQ.
  
 When looking at my Avatar, my MonsterDAC, it has 10 filter stages built-in. It is connected to my Belkin PF50.
 Even when I listen to another source, and disconnect MonsterDAC from mains (Belkin PF50) SQ is degraded. The 10 parallel filters in my MonsterDAC
 act as parallel filters for the whole audio chain.......
  
 That said, the removal of the AC-filterboard within the Armature dac is NOT a good thing (Read: if the original filterdesign was a GOOD design!)
 Only, and ONLY if the AC-filterboard was of bad quality, or not specific designed for the Ares dac's drained amperage, it could be a win.
  
 Just my 2 cents....


----------



## Mr Pluto

Abartels,
  
 Your aspect seems logical as always.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Sorry it`s a bit off the topic but I wanted to ask about your DAC. I see from your avatar that you use a lot of copper in your DAC housing. I have Marantz SA-1 and it also uses a lot of copper inside. Somehow it`s something that cannot be beaten by anything I compare it to, no matter the price. I know that copper is great shedding but it won`t block the EMR.
 Have you ever experimented with mu-metal and what are your thoughts about it?


----------



## abartels

mr pluto said:


> Abartels,
> 
> Your aspect seems logical as always.
> 
> ...


 
  
@Mr Pluto thanks for the kind response 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I use Copper foil for it's great EMI/RFI characteristics, and, since it is available as selfadhesive tape it's very easy to use.
 In my DAC I also use seperate subchassis, made of wood, for psu and dac/fifo reclocker. Wood is a very good material for anti-vibration purposes, and it really lifts the SQ.
  
 Of course there are other materials I wanted to use, such as mu-metal for magetic radiation and a organic material called Bitumen in Dutch, it's a sort of asphalt / hydrocarbon
 which also has superior vibration damping characteristics. I the early years manufacturers used it in speaker cabinets to damp them and make them "accoustically dead".
 Manufacturers like Sony did use this damping material on their top-of-the-line equipment to damp capacitors and enclosures.
  
 The DAC enclosure was too small to implement all this materials together. I never used mu-metal before, but I am aware of it's very good EMR characteristics.
 My next MonsterDAC will include all the materials combined together, and possibly will be based on a transformerless design with supercap psu's which will be fed thru external psu.
  
 If using copper shields like I did in MonsterDAC, be aware you have adequate Ground at your home. I know that in China, and other countries are many households who doesn't have Ground at all. In that case my MonsterDAC could sound awfull.
  
  
 ON-topic again 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Still nobody bought a Terminator for a wonderful review? Is someone planning to buy one?


----------



## PitBul34

hyfly said:


> Pitbull, how dare you to be so good informed,


 
 I found some information about Cronos at Audio.Broker (former Denafrips dealer) facebook. 
  


> The "official shots" are taken by PitBul34. So PitBul34 has a half Ares half Armature.


----------



## motberg

mr pluto said:


> Abartels,
> 
> Your aspect seems logical as always.
> 
> ...


 

 Hi, I use mumetal in various locations where I think possible problems from  EMI. If I remember correctly when I last checked, 2 thin sheets of mumetal offered the equivalent EMI reduction as 18 CM of distance.


----------



## earfonia

motberg said:


> Hi, I use mumetal in various locations where I think possible problems from  EMI. If I remember correctly when I last checked, 2 thin sheets of mumetal offered the equivalent EMI reduction as 18 CM of distance.


 
  
 Interesting! Thanks for the info!
 I did this video in the past for my review, would be interesting to check how mumetal protects DAPs from EMI.
  
 Fiio X3 2nd Generation Review - EMI Test
https://youtu.be/OQsoGI-uzYE
  
 EMI on USB Cable:
 Part 1: https://youtu.be/y5Wc-jqPWUY
 Part 2: https://youtu.be/Iu1I8FN2lpE


----------



## Superdad

motberg said:


> Hi, I use mumetal in various locations where I think possible problems from  EMI.


 
  
 Guess that's not the same as Moo Metal:


----------



## krell1967

Guys, I'm so happy about Ares sound that I ordered a Terminator in silver colour. 
It will be ship to me at the end of this week......I'm looking forward for it


----------



## m-i-c-k-e-y

Wow! Looking forward to it.


----------



## Mr Pluto

krell1967 said:


> Guys, I'm so happy about Ares sound that I ordered a Terminator in silver colour.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 WOW! Congrats Krell !
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Now you need some absolute SOTA digital to compare it to. I have a feeling that your Levinson ain`t gonna last long.....


----------



## Mr Pluto

Abartels,
  
 Quote:


> My next MonsterDAC will include all the materials combined together, and possibly will be based on a transformerless design with supercap psu's which will be fed thru external psu.


 
 I`m just in process of experimenting and making isolation platforms for my equipment. I also use many layers of different materials like cork, several rubber and strong plywood. Thought about the bitumen-like material too that is widely used in car tuning but it`s a bit too friable to glue between such heavy platforms. Currently my equipment is placed on thick granite slabs but I have read that despite the great mass granite reflects some airborne vibrations so it`s not the best solution. The key seems to use different materials in layers because they all have different vibration damping characteristics. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  


> I know that in China, and other countries are many households who doesn't have Ground at all.


 
  
 Well that`s a bit scary


----------



## Mr Pluto

superdad said:


> Guess that's not the same as Moo Metal:


 

 I hope she is grounded?


----------



## PitBul34

krell1967 said:


> Guys, I'm so happy about Ares sound that I ordered a Terminator in silver colour.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 It looking forward for you 

  
 Great news, man! Waiting your report about the Terminator DAC!


----------



## abartels

krell1967 said:


> Guys, I'm so happy about Ares sound that I ordered a Terminator in silver colour.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Congrats!!!
  
 Looking forward to your review!


----------



## slex

Ill be collecting the Ares from Vinshine today.Will be connecting to balance Jotunheim. Hope to report back against Mimby and MHDT dac after burn-in duration.


----------



## Krit

@krell1967 Wow... congrats! I am very interested and looking forward in reading your review


----------



## Walderstorn

slex said:


> Ill be collecting the Ares from Vinshine today.Will be connecting to balance Jotunheim. Hope to report back against Mimby and MHDT dac after burn-in duration.




Curious about those comparisons.


----------



## krell1967

Thank you so much, guys. 
As soon as it arrives from Singapore, I'll do a long review and I'll compare it to my new Mark Levinson 390S.
Stay tuned


----------



## hyfly

Armature Cronos arrived, its quite musical right out of the box.
  
 But also more confusion, on the box it says Xmos U8, on their web page its XU208, im beginning to think that Audiophonics doesn't know what they are selling themselfes.
  
 But also kudos to their fast shipping and good packaging.


----------



## JoeDoe

Hey fellas, sorry to cannonball into this thread, but if anybody is thinking about selling their ares, please shoot me a PM. Ready to pull the trigger on one!


----------



## abartels

joedoe said:


> Hey fellas, sorry to cannonball into this thread, but if anybody is thinking about selling their ares, please shoot me a PM. Ready to pull the trigger on one!


 
  
 I'm very sure @alvin1118 can help you


----------



## TheNidz

hyfly said:


> But also more confusion, on the box it says Xmos U8, on their web page its XU208, im beginning to think that Audiophonics doesn't know what they are selling themselfes.




Perhaps the only way to be sure is to open it up and have a look at the chip itself?


----------



## hyfly

thenidz said:


> Perhaps the only way to be sure is to open it up and have a look at the chip itself?


 
 you might be right, but thats up to the seller, because im pretty sure they dont want me to do that, if i want to be able to return it.
  
 I just let it burn in for now, to see where its going, right now its to early to tell.


----------



## krell1967

hyfly said:


> you might be right, but thats up to the seller, because im pretty sure they dont want me to do that, if i want to be able to return it.
> 
> I just let it burn in for now, to see where its going, right now its to early to tell.



Call to Audiophonics and explain them the fact. If it is really a Xmos U8 you can return it.


----------



## hyfly

if i have read it correct, the have a 14 day return police anyway


----------



## krell1967

hyfly said:


> if i have read it correct, the have a 14 day return police anyway



Yes, it's right. But you pay the cost of return.


----------



## PitBul34

hyfly said:


> Armature Cronos arrived, its quite musical right out of the box.
> 
> But also more confusion, on the box it says Xmos U8, on their web page its XU208




Read my post here http://www.head-fi.org/t/833690/denafrips-ares-r2r-discrete-ladder-dac-close-up-view/135#post_13276794 about how to recognize XMOS chip.


----------



## whill

Hi!
  
 Just a quick clarification, does the ARES can play DSD natively?


----------



## krell1967

whill said:


> Hi!
> 
> Just a quick clarification, does the ARES can play DSD natively?



See post #14.


----------



## taz23

Has anyone compared the Ares against the Vinshine Reference DAC? Many thanks!


----------



## slex

taz23 said:


> Has anyone compared the Ares against the Vinshine Reference DAC? Many thanks!



Vinshine soekris? Alvin has done comparison. Ares is more lush and focus in the mid. Bass is more extended.

For me now Ares is definitely darker ( blacker background)then mimby at first hearing. Maybe due its the balanced setup and the good power transformer.


----------



## Mr Pluto

slex said:


> Vinshine soekris? Alvin has done comparison. Ares is more lush and focus in the mid. Bass is more extended.
> 
> For me now Ares is definitely darker ( blacker background)then mimby at first hearing. Maybe due its the balanced setup and the good power transformer.


 
 Do you mean Vinshine R2R REF dac/headphone amp which uses Soekris diy dac pcb?: https://www.vinshineaudio.com/product-page/dac-r2r-ref


----------



## slex

mr pluto said:


> Do you mean Vinshine R2R REF dac/headphone amp which uses Soekris diy dac pcb?: https://www.vinshineaudio.com/product-page/dac-r2r-ref



Yes. I requested him to do a comparison.


----------



## Mr Pluto

slex said:


> Yes. I requested him to do a comparison.


 

 OK, was it a PM conversation or is it up somewhere in forums?


----------



## slex

mr pluto said:


> OK, was it a PM conversation or is it up somewhere in forums?



Via whatapps...???


----------



## rigo

slex said:


> Yes. I requested him to do a comparison.




Is there a link to the comparison?


----------



## slex

rigo said:


> Is there a link to the comparison?




"[05/04, 11:33 am] Slex: How? Compare with soekris?
[05/04, 11:34 am] Alvin Extreme: Ares has better focus, mid on Ares is lush
[05/04, 11:34 am] Alvin Extreme: Soekris on the other hand, a bit lean (it is not lean, but compare to Ares, it sounds lean....)
[05/04, 11:34 am] Alvin Extreme: bass in Ares is tok kong.

Tok kong means power


----------



## slex

Currently my Ares wouldnt work on ios10.2 ipad 4 but im updating now to 10.3 and see if it works.

Using V20 output to Ares ( Tidal Hifi ) is fine. The 48K & 4K lights up showing the upsampling.

Both using USB inputs of Ares.


----------



## slex

Anyone interested in PONTUS? I am particularly in NOS mode


----------



## Mr Pluto

slex said:


> Anyone interested in PONTUS? I am particularly in NOS mode


 

 Are you selling or looking to buy one?


----------



## m-i-c-k-e-y

Naw! He just want to make us envy because he got one...


----------



## Mr Pluto

m-i-c-k-e-y said:


> Naw! He just want to make us envy because he got one...


 

 I thought he had Ares


----------



## slex

Guys, Pontus not in my shore yet. Pics is sent to me by Vineshine that i requested


----------



## Mr Pluto

slex said:


> Guys, Pontus not in my shore yet. Pics is sent to me by Vineshine that i requested


 

 Talking about pics, there could be more on Denafrips and Vinshine page. At present it`s quite incomprehensible which model is 2 box spearate PSU etc. Would like to peek under the skirt also ...


----------



## krell1967

Pontus is arriving.......


----------



## Krit

krell1967 said:


> Pontus is arriving.......




Rows of resistors and caps look so sexy!!!


----------



## hyfly

i would like to see, what is under the PCB


----------



## krell1967

hyfly said:


> i would like to see, what is under the PCB



Power supply, what else....


----------



## Mr Pluto

Krell1957,
 WOW Pontus looks impressive!
 You said that you will order Terminator? Would like to peek under the Terminator skirt also.........

  
 What`s your first impressions of the Pontus?
  
 P.S. My Ares still burns-in so I will do my final shootout on coming week when I have a time to listen. I will report my long promised review also!


----------



## Grrrr

Sorry about my english...
I also had an afternoon listening to some friends with Ares - Holo 1 / Singxer Su-1 / M9 + Gustard H10 mod / Sen HD540-560-580-600. Compared to Holo Spring, Ares has a slightly smoother mid-section, deeper images, bass is the same, Ares has more body, but Holo is stronger. But treb still lack sparkling. About missing sparkle treb I think is due to the exact level of the resistor. Actually, Ares is good compared to $ 600.
Ares received many good reviews here. At least 3 of my friends have ordered to replace the x20, bifrost mubtibit, Audiogd Nos19. I also held a small offline meeting so everyone could hear Ares. All appreciated.
Denafrips Ares with Mimby-Bimmy yesterday, plugged in with schott Jotunheim and listen to HD600 / Balance Cable and RS1i, the fact that the war ares (ares) is quite good compared to mimby especially bright, Break out the bass as thick as a mimba. High range is better than mimby pretty much, good bass control is very powerful.
If the range is $ 600-700 then ares is a dac r2r probably quite well


 Mimby with bifrost have the same sound same, then bifrost harder than ares!

It is sad to be upgraded usb in the new ares support dsd native is also supported by default only dsd via DoP

Add a bit of war god: build quality pretty good, sure, holding hands. There is no cheap feeling unless you light up (I do not like the Ares luminaire ))

The interior is much cleaner, not as terrorist as the gd audio group neatly tidy

Before that I had the opportunity to listen to Nos 19 (PCM 170 famous) but the sound is not as you think, compared to the nose 19, the sound ares brighter, more balanced, treble up well not roll off like the nose of 19)

Personal feel of the treble head, listen to how the individual views, the bricks free to receive!


----------



## manishex

I want to know how it compares to the similarly priced Singularity-19 and if the Ares had I2S HDMI, it would be a no-brainer.


----------



## Mr Pluto

Thanks for your review Grrrr! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Do you have a speaker system also or you listened on headphones only?
  
 I have not done the final listening and compassion with Ares yet (still burning in) but so far I would not describe the highs as bright. Maybe you wanted to say more extended or clear? At least that`s my findings so far. Ares has a slight velvety tone, that is quite pleasing and sounds pretty real/neutral. One of the most shocking ability of Ares is the realistic deep 3D soundstage that is actually a very rare ability even for dac`s that cost many many times more. The other thing that shocked was the ability to produce a undistorted, deep and fast bass. From such a small piece of DAC its quite amazing!


----------



## Mr Pluto

manishex said:


> I want to know how it compares to the similarly priced Singularity-19 and if the Ares had I2S HDMI, it would be a no-brainer.


 
  
 I wouldn't worry about about connections so much. The basic DNA of a device is always the same. 
 There`s not much comparisons to Audio GD 19 yet, but if we check the spec of R2R ladder resistors in audio GD are 0,1% precision (DA M1 modules) but Ares has 0.01% resistors and the top Denafrips models even use 0,005% resistor ladders.
  
http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/diy/DA01/DA01EN.htm
  
 Below are a couple words from audiogoner that supposedly owns both dacs:
  
  



 4hannons 98 posts



  04-04-2017 8:10pm



  I'm currently comparing the Audio GD to Ares, both have approx. 150 hours so far, I'm leaning toward the Ares right now.

  
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/dac-does-anyhting-beat-the-schiit-gungnir-multibit-gumby-in-the-same


----------



## Grrrr

mr pluto said:


> Thanks for your review Grrrr!
> 
> Do you have a speaker system also or you listened on headphones only?
> 
> I have not done the final listening and compassion with Ares yet (still burning in) but so far I would not describe the highs as bright. Maybe you wanted to say more extended or clear? At least that`s my findings so far. Ares has a slight velvety tone, that is quite pleasing and sounds pretty real/neutral. One of the most shocking ability of Ares is the realistic deep 3D soundstage that is actually a very rare ability even for dac`s that cost many many times more. The other thing that shocked was the ability to produce a undistorted, deep and fast bass. From such a small piece of DAC its quite amazing!



I have about 100h with Ares. It has changed a lot since the first time. The most obvious is bass, deep, firm, more body. On treb, Ares did very well, lacking a sparkle compared to Holo. With Grado rs1i as high as the expansion of the details. I've tried many Dacs in the $ 1000 range but have not been satisfied, until I tried Ares and was absolutely satisfied. Not easy to control grado rs1i in bass and treb but Ares did very well. Regarding the lack of sparkle in comparison to Holo, I liked the way Ares performed, it made me see the nature, the truth of the instruments, the fineness of the string instruments just enough to hear not overlap. Very music ))) If you are not satisfied with the treb, try replacing the other xlr cable. Feel the other combination. This is what I felt when I tried Ares> AnalysisPlus Chocolate Oval XLR> Gustard H10 mod gain 6> Grado rs1i, Sen Hd540 600ohm.


----------



## krell1967

mr pluto said:


> Krell1957,
> WOW Pontus looks impressive!
> You said that you will order Terminator? Would like to peek under the Terminator skirt also.........
> 
> ...



Here it is


----------



## Mr Pluto

grrrr said:


> I have about 100h with Ares. It has changed a lot since the first time. The most obvious is bass, deep, firm, more body. On treb, Ares did very well, lacking a sparkle compared to Holo. With Grado rs1i as high as the expansion of the details. I've tried many Dacs in the $ 1000 range but have not been satisfied, until I tried Ares and was absolutely satisfied. Not easy to control grado rs1i in bass and treb but Ares did very well. Regarding the lack of sparkle in comparison to Holo, I liked the way Ares performed, it made me see the nature, the truth of the instruments, the fineness of the string instruments just enough to hear not overlap. Very music
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 No, no I`m actually very happy with trebials. I already have solid silver UP-OOC XLR cables on Ares. The Xhadow XLR connectors alone cost nearly half of ARES )


----------



## Mr Pluto

krell1967 said:


> Here it is


 

 Thanks for a beautiful pictures Krell1967
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 WOW! What a muscle-beast of a PSU. It truly deserves it`s name!


----------



## 37mil

krit said:


> Rows of resistors and caps look so sexy!!!


 

 it does indeed! makes me want to buy this one.
  
 does anyone know anything about the analog output stages of these dacs? nothing seems to get mentioned although the output stage is probably what gives it it's sound signature.


----------



## PitBul34

~3000 likes in Pontus FB thread for 4 days... Sic venit gloria mundi !


----------



## soundfanz

Why not keep this thread about the Ares only, and owners of Pontus or any other Denafrips model, start their own threads?


----------



## abartels

soundfanz said:


> Why not keep this thread about the Ares only, and owners of Pontus or any other Denafrips model, start their own threads?


 
  
 NOOOOOO, please don't


----------



## soundfanz

Look, I love my Ares, just gets confusing sometimes knowing what Dac is being talked about.


----------



## Light - Man

abartels said:


> NOOOOOO, please don't


 
  
 I agree, without comparisons to other DAC's what have we got, a Fan-Boy thread? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Once people make it clear what they are talking about then all is good, IMO.


----------



## Krit

I think given ARES or other Denarips DAC comparison to other DAC (the popular ones) on the market in the same class or a little bit higher class with give other people who own those DACs have a reference point of comparison. For me, its very hard to picture DAC review without any reference DAC (either lower or higher class than ARES). Thank you.


----------



## Mr Pluto

light - man said:


> I agree, without comparisons to other DAC's what have we got, a Fan-Boy thread?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  


krit said:


> I think given ARES or other Denarips DAC comparison to other DAC (the popular ones) on the market in the same class or a little bit higher class with give other people who own those DACs have a reference point of comparison. For me, its very hard to picture DAC review without any reference DAC (either lower or higher class than ARES). Thank you.


 

 If you take the time to read the thread then you can find many comparisons.


----------



## Krit

mr pluto said:


> If you take the time to read the thread then you can find many comparisons.




Thank you Mr. Pluto. I am so tempted to try the Ares.... though very curious to see how much of improvement it would be comparing to my current DAC the Chord MOJO.


----------



## gunwale

krit said:


> Thank you Mr. Pluto. I am so tempted to try the Ares.... though very curious to see how much of improvement it would be comparing to my current DAC the Chord MOJO.


 
  
 at the 37 pages, someone compared it with mojo.
  


> I try to describe the differences between the Yulong D200, Mojo and Ares.
> 
> The comparison was done on a iMac with Audiophonics USB Link on DAC, then to a Abletec ALC0230 Amp and to coaxial DIY speakers (nothing fancy but good quality).
> 
> ...


----------



## Krit

gunwale said:


> at the 37 pages, someone compared it with mojo.




Thanks so much!!! What he describe about the MOJO Ihave found to be quite accurate.


----------



## Audio-68

Mr. Pluto, I am 4hannons on Audiogon. I have a few things to say about the Ares and Audio GD Singularity 19, I want to start with sharing my raw listening notes with all of you.




Ahmad Jamal "Morning Mist"

Denafrips Ares 

At 2:48 the deep bass notes hit hard and fast, each note beginning and ending abruptly and each note felt deeply in my chest.

At 3:18-3:28 (and 4:52-5:06) lots of small percussions happening from the talented Manolo Badrena in background, each drum beat dances in and out of each big piano note forming a deep, complex layer of three dimensional sound.

At 4:45 (and 5:51) the high staccato piano notes can cause lesser dacs to produce a slight shrill/distortion that can really irritate the ear; the Ares handles those notes with clarity and no shrill.

The percussion on this song is amazing, again at 5:40 the three dimensionality is on display with very nuanced and complex drumming.

At 6:58 waaaay in the back I can hear quick wooden cowbell (not sure the instrument) clacks of percussion, very faint but distinct and then a few other faint percussionbut clear percussion instruments until 7:06 set way back

Audio GD S19

At 2:48 the deep bass notes hit hard and fast, exactly like Ares.

At 3:18-3:28 (and 4:52-5:06) lots of nice little percussions but the soundstage seems flatter, not as deep, a nice presentation with a big piano sound, percussion less distinct and a bit more congealed.

At 4:45 (and 5:51) the high staccato piano notes don't phase the Audio GD S19 at all, very natural just like the Ares, clear and no shrill.

The amazing percussion at 5:40 has lost some of the the three dimensionality with Audio GD S19, placement shifts slightly to the left and the drums seem on top of the piano, it's here that the flat sound stage of the Audioi GD is most obvious.

At 6:58 the clacks of percussion have a superb wooden sound, amazingly natural, but the separation and distinction of each sound is not here like in the Ares.


----------



## abartels

krell1967 said:


> Pontus is arriving.......


 
  
 Hi Krell1967,
  
 Is that chewing gum on the AES inputs???


----------



## m-i-c-k-e-y

Nope! They are dried Jujubes (Red Dates). The secret to its sweetness.


----------



## Light - Man

m-i-c-k-e-y said:


> Nope! They are dried Jujubes (Red Dates). The secret to its sweetness.


 
  
 Yes, those lovely sweet ripe dates before wedlock entrapment and diabetes?


----------



## HoloSpice

Denafrips Venus vs Holo Spring LVL3 vs Schiit Yggdrasil  please


----------



## oneguy

atomicpunch said:


> Denafrips Venus vs Holo Spring LVL3 vs Schiit Yggdrasil  please




Send me a Venus and a Yggy? sure


----------



## krell1967

atomicpunch said:


> Denafrips Venus vs Holo Spring LVL3 vs Schiit Yggdrasil  please



Wait for Venus, it's arriving, stay tuned


----------



## Mr Pluto

audio-68 said:


> Mr. Pluto, I am 4hannons on Audiogon. I have a few things to say about the Ares and Audio GD Singularity 19, I want to start with sharing my raw listening notes with all of you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Hi Audio-68,
 Thanks for your comparison! I must say that your findings on Ares are very similar to mine. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 I will try to post my comparison soon. I've been quite busy lately.


----------



## Mr Pluto

krell1967 said:


> Wait for Venus, it's arriving, stay tuned


 

 Krell1967,
  
 I`m confused right now... You have Ares then you mentioned Terminator then Pontus and now you say Venus is arriving. Did you order all the Denafrips line?


----------



## krell1967

mr pluto said:


> Krell1967,
> 
> I`m confused right now... You have Ares then you mentioned Terminator then Pontus and now you say Venus is arriving. Did you order all the Denafrips line?



No Mr Pluto, I wanted to mean that Venus is almost ready to be marketed, I currently have the Terminator, about Ares I gave it to a friend of mine and for Pontus I have posted some photos, but I haven't bought it


----------



## m-i-c-k-e-y

So initial impressions/comparison with the Terminator.


----------



## PitBul34

krell1967 said:


> Wait for Venus, it's arriving, stay tuned


 

 Me too! It must be a great DAC! BTW, I have sold my Ares and Oppo Sonica very quickly.


----------



## connieflyer

May I ask why you sold the Ares?


----------



## PitBul34

connieflyer said:


> May I ask why you sold the Ares?


 

 Because of Venus. I wanna buy it.


----------



## bodhidharma

someone has already heard the denafrips pontus or has some news or reviews?


----------



## HoloSpice

Haha will it be yggy slayer?


----------



## hicr49

Hi all, just discovered this post and still reading through it. Lots of great/exciting promises. Quick question, does anyone know if DENAFRIPS a Taiwan based company or China?


----------



## krell1967

His name is Terminator.....Arnold for his friends.....


----------



## yates7592

Lucky guy! Please let us know how she sounds.


----------



## slex

krell1967 said:


> His name is Terminator.....Arnold for his friends.....



https://youtu.be/mpMg1upld0w


----------



## bballas

https://denafrips.taobao.com/shop/view_shop.htm?spm=a230r.1.14.5.48EyHi&user_number_id=915194180
sold:0,0,0 pcs, ares:2pcs. interesting.......


----------



## ness8888

hi , 
  
 can share your settings at hqplayer?


----------



## ness8888

hi can share your hqplayer upsample settings? i cant upsample to dsd


----------



## bodhidharma

First impressioni di Terminator (Arnold per gli amici)?


----------



## krell1967

bodhidharma said:


> Firsts impressions of Terminator (Arnold for friends)?



So guys, sorry I'm late to answer, but I was very busy. Just to understand on what size we are moving, the Terminator out of the box sounds like an Ares, all multiplied by 3 or 4 times, very very impressive. Refinement and retail levels by fear, reference Mark Levinson 390S .....
Stay tuned


----------



## Krit

krell1967 said:


> So guys, sorry I'm late to answer, but I was very busy. Just to understand on what size we are moving, the Terminator out of the box sounds like an Ares, all multiplied by 3 or 4 times, very very impressive. Refinement and retail levels by fear, reference Mark Levinson 390S .....
> Stay tuned


 

 Oh my..... the wait is killing me.


----------



## rigo

Is Pontus being discussed here too?


----------



## Aradea

Sorry guys.. if I already have a mojo, do you think it would be an improvement to have the ares?
*Worth it to spend the money?

Thanks


----------



## NEOhioDude

Hi to everyone........saying hello from the Cleveland Akron area -


 


Great thread 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Lot of useful information 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





 


Waiting eagerly for someone or a group here to do a comparison / shootout of Yggy, Holo Spring Level III, Terminator or a Venus, and ............... Cranesong Solaris and / or Dangerous Music Convert 2. People who use the last two (mostly sound engineers, mixing pros) also rave about the musicality, resolution, sound-stage etc etc. In another forum, someone very well known (here as well as in the other) would eventually do the comparison. I am just being little bit impatience


----------



## WhiskeyJacks

Hey guys I am looking to replace and or upgrade my damaged DAC, I am currently on the fence with this purchase, and have read through a good amount of the thread but wanted to ask if any of you have had experiences with this DAC, Schiit Bifrost Multibit, and then a couple choices that are not multibit like Aune s16 which I can get for the same price as the Ares. Any help regarding Ares and the DACs in the same price range or higher would be appreciated


----------



## bballas

whiskeyjacks said:


> Hey guys I am looking to replace and or upgrade my damaged DAC, I am currently on the fence with this purchase, and have read through a good amount of the thread but wanted to ask if any of you have had experiences with this DAC, Schiit Bifrost Multibit, and then a couple choices that are not multibit like Aune s16 which I can get for the same price as the Ares. Any help regarding Ares and the DACs in the same price range or higher would be appreciated


 

 ​Damaged nfb 28?the output stage works??


----------



## MiguelPT

krell1967 said:


> Guys, I'm so happy about Ares sound that I ordered a Terminator in silver colour.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I couldn't resit and have just ordered a Terminator!!! 
 I'm very happy and exited (-:


----------



## Moochibond

miguelpt said:


> I couldn't resit and have just ordered a Terminator!!!
> I'm very happy and exited (-:


 
 Nice 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 What kit will you be using it with / comparing against?


----------



## Mr Pluto

miguelpt said:


> I couldn't resit and have just ordered a Terminator!!!
> I'm very happy and exited (-:


 
 Congrats Miguel !


----------



## Mr Pluto

Krell1967,
  
 Silver Terminator looks absolutely beautiful. I look forward to your review.


----------



## MiguelPT

Many thank's to all of You!!!
  
 I've been reading this tread and... It just happening!
 I was expecting for the availability of the Holo DAC but this Denafrips tread was keeping my attention, ARES, Pontus, Venús, Terminator.....
  
 It was a big temptation, I've never expected to spend this amount on a DAC. I'ths done and I expect to be very happy whit it.
  
 I'll post my opinion as soon as possible!
  
 My other gear are:
  
 Accutics Arts Amp II MK2
 Accustics Arts Preamp I MK3
 Accustics Arts Surround Player I
 Lyngdorf RP1
 Ciunas DAC
 Anthony Gallo Reference 3.1 speakers whit special Bright Star Audio Stands
 Home made music server  (AO 2.2, Jplay , Win Server 2016) 
  
 Thank's 
  
 Miguel


----------



## krell1967

miguelpt said:


> I couldn't resit and have just ordered a Terminator!!!
> I'm very happy and exited (-:
> 
> :bigsmile_face:



Well done, Miguel


----------



## MiguelPT

krell1967 said:


> Well done, Miguel


 
  
 Thank's Krell!
 I could't let You be the only one


----------



## Mr Pluto

Oki-Doki, I will put some words about my experience with Ares as promised.....

  

 First, I want to thank Alvin from Vinshine Audio for immaculate customer service and lightning fast shipping to EU.

 English is not my native language so I apologize for misspelling and grammar mistakes.

  

 My Ares arrived safe and sound and had a nice cone footers.




 I basically ordered Ares because I needed a DAC between my smart TV and stereo system for occasional listening. So the goal was a good PCM processing capability. As we know R2R is strong on that. 

 I'm not a dedicated believer in burn-in (expect speakers) but I must admit that this thing absolutely transformed 180°. Out of the box the highs were shrill and I thought I had made a mistake. But it started to transform fast. After couple hours already it was much more listenable. I did the first critical listening after 50 hours and it was absolutely another story. My final critical listening was after both SPDIF and USB/XMOS circuits had over 300h burn-in. 

  

 Over the years I have owned a lot of different digital players. Pictures of some I posted here earlier. Despite the fact that I have owned some quite expensive digital front ends as Zanden, Burmester Top Line belt drive transport and 980SRC DAC combo etc., the one that has always outperformed anything is my trusty blind eye pirate Marantz SA-1.

  

 So I threw the little $600 Ares straight in the fire and put it against my SA-1 that had a price tag of 8k back in the day. One of it's designers said that if it would be produced today it's price tag would be easily over 20k. 

  

 SA-1 transport was connected to Ares via coax. Both were connected via identical solid silver XLR cables to Burmester 035 pre that allowed me to switch between the two instantly without any pause, pop or click via remote from my listening position. Burmester 035 is a fantastic pre that reveals even the slightest nuances and makes shootouts between digital fronts a joy. Output voltage of both of the DAC-s is same and their levels matched using dB meter and test CD. 




 The winner of the most unfair fight was clear from the first notes. ...............But the performance of Ares was actually quite shocking to me. First thing that astonished me was the deepness of the soundstage. Such deep well defined, real 3D soundstage represents a serious touchstone for many DAC`s that cost even ten times as much as Ares and is unheard under 2K. All the instruments are solidly placed and well defined on the soundstage. Images are life sized and palpable. The soundstage is a bit lower and narrower than SA-1 so some instruments are placed bit closer to the centre. But the image stays solid and defined even at most complex passages. 

  

 The other thing that immediately amazes is the deep, controlled and articulated bass that just seems surreal considering the size of Ares.

  

 Tonality is really sweet and not fatiguing. I would characterize it as slightly velvety. It reminds me of Accuphase DP-67. Absolutely pleasure to listen. 

  

 It basically has it all……….. First class soundstage, beautiful tonality, loads of details, decent micro/macro dynamics, musicality etc. Seriously, I was not able to find any flaw in it’s presentation. Ares is real high-end DAC that plays in much higher league as it’s price suggests. It's actually insane what the $600 buys to you. 

 If driven by a decent spinner it certainly (by memory) surpasses Esoteric DV-60, D-07, AMR 777, Naim Audio CDX2, Accuphase DP500 and maybe even DP67. Yes, the older DP67 is much better player than newer DP500 and 510.

  

 How big was the difference with SA-1? Huge, big, subtle, night and day etc. are all very subjective terms. Therefore I just say that it was very easily distinguishable when I switched between them. I’m confident that even a person with not the best hearing can tell the difference. SA-1 has just a bolder, more dynamic and lively presentation. It doesn’t have the velvety tonality but it’s even more enjoyable because of it’s utter neutrality and liquid-like smooth voicing. There’s more ambience of “you are there” feeling.    

 Of course Ares misses the ultimate refinement and dynamics of SA-1, SA7S1 and the Burmester digital but considering it’s the lowest animal in Denafrips food chain it would be most interesting to have a Venus or Terminator on my table. 

  

 Above mentioned, applies only to Ares fed by SA-1 transport via coax or opt. 

 From my smart TV via opt to Ares it performs it's task admirably. Even all the crap from music channels and youtube is listenable. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  

 As Ares is also a USB DAC that can play native DSD, I downloaded approx. 25 DSD albums from DSD64 to DSD256. I choose most albums that I also have on CD. Some of which are from Susan Wong, Vaya Con Dios, Dire Starits, Eagles etc. I set up Foobar to play native DSD and did a direct A/B comparison of DSD albums from my laptop/Ares to the same albums played on CD from SA-1. I've tried the some computer/USB DAC combos couple times before but sadly it reconfirmed me once again that this PC/USB thing has still miles and miles to go compared to a decent spinner. Probably nice digital transport like Aurender or Soundaware helps, but I still doubt if it can really rival a decent disk spinner.

 I don't want to say that via USB it was bad or unlistenable. It was actually quite nice and by memory better than AMR 777 or D-07 USB DAC. Considering it's sonic DNA I'm sure it will outperform most of it's USB rivals also. What I want to say is that the difference was just much bigger compared to when Ares was fed by SA-1 spinner via SPDIF. 

 I did not buy it, for it`s USB or DSD capabilities so I will take it as a nice bonus that is great for causal PC listening. 

  

 To conclude, I am extremely pleased with Ares, and it has vastly exceeded my every expectation. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	












  
 I do not _pretend on an absolute truth here. These are just my experiences that I wanted to share with you as _as honestly and straightforwardly as possible. This is _just my 2 cents so_ take it for what it's worth!


----------



## rafabro

> Originally Posted by *Mr Pluto* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> ...I've tried the some computer/USB DAC combos couple times before but sadly it reconfirmed me once again that this PC/USB thing has still miles and miles to go compared to a decent spinner. Probably nice digital transport like Aurender or Soundaware helps, but I still doubt if it can really rival a decent disk spinner.
> I don't want to say that via USB it was bad or unlistenable. It was actually quite nice and by memory better than AMR 777 or D-07 USB DAC. Considering it's sonic DNA I'm sure it will outperform most of it's USB rivals also. What I want to say is that the difference was just much bigger compared to when Ares was fed by SA-1 spinner via SPDIF...


 
 Is no point compare standard PC with standard USB socket as a source, to highend CD player.
  
 Any USB-DAC needs proper source like any good CD player has one inside.


----------



## Mr Pluto

rafabro said:


> Is no point compare standard PC with standard USB socket as a source, to highend CD player.
> 
> Any USB-DAC needs proper source like any good CD player has one inside.


 

 Agree..... so someone please donate me a Aurender or at least a Soundaware so I can make a fairer comparison!


----------



## bodhidharma

mr pluto said:


> Agree..... so someone please donate me a Aurender or at least a Soundaware so I can make a fairer comparison!


 
 I can assure you that there is no need to spend so much, I have a very high resolution system (PRE Pass Labs X1 Double Layer, Yungson JA-100 Luxury Edition Monophonic Amplifier, Usher AC-10 Speakers, Schiit Yggdrasil that listened to this Context and bypass the USB input via DDC LKS interface I can assure you that it has no rivals!) And as a player I use a fearful Auralic Aries and my system flies very high.


----------



## soundfanz

A  really nice write up Mr Pluto, but my experiences differ in regards to the Ares's USB capabilities. 
  
 I use  Audirvana 3 and Tidal premium via Macbook, fed to the Ares via an iFi Gemini cable and it sounds excellent. Am really very happy with the sound quality.
  
 In my system the USB implementation sounded better than 2 different CD players I tried connected via coaxial to the Ares.


----------



## bodhidharma

soundfanz said:


> A  really nice write up Mr Pluto, but my experiences differ in regards to the Ares's USB capabilities.
> 
> I use  Audirvana 3 and Tidal premium via Macbook, fed to the Ares via an iFi Gemini cable and it sounds excellent. Am really very happy with the sound quality.
> 
> In my system the USB implementation sounded better than 2 different CD players I tried connected via coaxial to the Ares.


 
 Listening through the USB input can further improve by inserting a Jitterbug Auioquest filter on the PC's USB output and a Uptone Regen USB purifier on the other end of the USB cable, so I can assure you that together it will bring a significant improvement to the SQ in my system.


----------



## soundfanz

Well...I haven't tried a Jitterbug,but I did buy a USB Regen and a very good LPS and they made NO improvement to the sound quality.In my opinion this meant that the USB implementation of the Ares is very good.
I sold the Regen and LPS shortly thereafter.


----------



## Mr Pluto

Thanks Soundfanz and Bodhidharma for nice tips!
 I`ve not deeply delved in PC/USB audio and sadly have none of the toys on hand. Even my usb cable is generic. Therefore please take my USB comments only for what they are worth.


----------



## soundfanz

Hi Mr Pluto.

I'm not doubting your comments at all. Just saying that in my system the ARES and USB implementation work very well.
I myself am relatively new to PC, Dac and usb based audio.


----------



## slex

Its been 2 weeks 24/7 on Ares. Trying to find faults on Ares against mimby and mhdt.There was none accept Ares through USB cannot play through ios10 and android 7.

Initially. It sounded shrill against mhdt. It had a much darker background ambience against mimby.

Right now. It overtook both mhdt & mimby by a distant.

One thing to note . Im having much better SQ through Singxer F1 then straight into Ares. 

Actually intended Ares for my headphone listening through ipad but alas now it on my 2 channel spk.Will connect balance output of Ares to jotunium which is 8M away soon.

Pros of Ares: Good bass texture. Non-fatigue highs and great separation of frequency. Very detail in a good way.

Cons: Need future firmware to accept ios and android.


----------



## joseph69

Very nice read.
 Nice set up too. I love your stand, looks like a nice solid piece!
 I recently made a new stand for my GS-X Mk2/BHSE from 1-3/4" solid butcher block with a 1/4" glass top.
 I also placed a black masonite board behind the back legs so the cables aren't visible (running through the trough) coming from my equipment on top of my gas fireplace.


----------



## bodhidharma

mr pluto said:


> Thanks Soundfanz and Bodhidharma for nice tips!
> I`ve not deeply delved in PC/USB audio and sadly have none of the toys on hand. Even my usb cable is generic. Therefore please take my USB comments only for what they are worth.


 
 As for the USB cable, I can recommend you an extraordinary and revolutionary cable that in my system has made a real miracle, this is the CURIOUS CABLE of Rob Woodland, Australia, with a $ 340 expense wins over $ 1000 cables like Lightspeed Light Armonic, incredible holographic soundstage, fluid and dynamic sound, in short, an unbeatable cable!


----------



## bodhidharma

I am telling you that I just ordered a Denafrips Pontus for my headphone listening system (Amp Schiit Mjolnir 2 equipped with two E88CC Telefunken year 1959 Gold Selected, Headphone Final Sonorous VI, Balanced Cable Forza Audio Works Hybrid Noir) and not Just did the Burn-In post my impressions and, above all, I'll compare it, within my main system, with the Yggy and I'll post the details of this epic battle.


----------



## ririeiman

bodhidharma said:


> I can assure you that there is no need to spend so much, I have a very high resolution system (PRE Pass Labs X1 Double Layer, Yungson JA-100 Luxury Edition Monophonic Amplifier, Usher AC-10 Speakers, Schiit Yggdrasil that listened to this Context and bypass the USB input via DDC LKS interface I can assure you that it has no rivals!) And as a player I use a fearful Auralic Aries and my system flies very high.


 
 nice system


----------



## Failed Engineer

I'm most intrigued by the Pontus as well.  I wish they had a proper distributor in the US.  The worldwide shipping charges are pretty crazy from the official distributor (don't seem particularly inflated, but just expensive), but I'm tempted anyways.


----------



## NEOhioDude

Waiting so eagerly for the comparisons ..... Pontus ....Yggy....etc.
  
 Have a great weekend folks


----------



## bodhidharma

failed engineer said:


> I'm most intrigued by the Pontus as well.  I wish they had a proper distributor in the US.  The worldwide shipping charges are pretty crazy from the official distributor (don't seem particularly inflated, but just expensive), but I'm tempted anyways.


 
 Indeed you are right, I did not expect these shipping costs from a Singapore distributor, typically the costs are very small if not non-existent at Asian retailers, but considering the value for money I have thrown in this yet another adventure.


----------



## bodhidharma




----------



## Mr Pluto

soundfanz said:


> Hi Mr Pluto.
> 
> I'm not doubting your comments at all. Just saying that in my system the ARES and USB implementation work very well.
> I myself am relatively new to PC, Dac and usb based audio.


 

 Hi soundfanz,
  
 No worries. The USB implementation I used is simple and raw so it`s not prohibited to express a different opinion. All useful tweak & toy suggestions are always welcome.
 Probably it was my spelling that amplified something too much. The Ares/laptop USB sounded pretty good and it probably beats some much more expensive highend CDP-s. Maybe even couple that I have owned, but as I don`t have these for A/B any more I`m not willing to make such statements with their makes by memory if I'm not quite sure.
 I´m not computer noob but there may also be a things and tweaks (aside of nice digital transport) that may greatly help.
 All suggestions for a budget digital transport are also welcome!


----------



## Mr Pluto

Slex,
  
 I see that your findings on burn-in and sonics match with mine. Two clocks can't go wrong in the same way....


----------



## Mr Pluto

joseph69 said:


> Very nice read.
> Nice set up too. I love your stand, looks like a nice solid piece!
> I recently made a new stand for my GS-X Mk2/BHSE from 1-3/4" solid butcher block with a 1/4" glass top.
> I also placed a black masonite board behind the back legs so the cables aren't visible (running through the trough) coming from my equipment on top of my gas fireplace.


 
 Thanks Joseph69!
 You have a great setup and interesting rack design also.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 My pics are a bit old. For now the 11mm granite is gone and every piece incl. Ares has it`s personal isolation platform. I took the time and studied vibration control theories a bit. It seems that despite great mass a plain granite is not the best under components because it reflects some frequencies and tends to ring. My DIY platforms combine different materials in several layers and have oak sides that match my table. If I take the pictures one day I will upload my Ares siting on it`s throne.


----------



## TheNidz

slex said:


> One thing to note . Im having much better SQ through Singxer F1 then straight into Ares.




Interesting finding. One would expect similar performance because the USB chip is the same XMOS U208. Perhaps the Crystek clocks in the F1 make the difference? I actually have an F1 but never thought to try it with the Ares.


----------



## Dgtman3

Curious if any Ares owners have tried up-sampled DSD 512 files on HQ Player and if they experienced any  
 benefits. Been reading forums saying great results are had doing this with T&A and Holo Spring dacs.


----------



## Moochibond

thenidz said:


> "I actually have an F1 but never thought to try it with the Ares."


 
 Please let us know your findings?


----------



## slex

mr pluto said:


> Slex,
> 
> I see that your findings on burn-in and sonics match with mine. Two clocks can't go wrong in the same way....



With abandant of caps in it. The change in sonic took a while to bloom i guess


----------



## slex

thenidz said:


> Interesting finding. One would expect similar performance because the USB chip is the same XMOS U208. Perhaps the Crystek clocks in the F1 make the difference? I actually have an F1 but never thought to try it with the Ares.



My USB out of my window pc as follow:

Ifi idefender( powered by LPS and balance transformer)--USB cable----Musical Paradise MP1-U ( USB regulated Battery Supply ) ---ifi iSilencer---USB cable--ifi ipurifier2(powered by MP-U1)---Singxer F1 ( powered by MP-U1)---Coax cable---ifi ispdif( powered by LPS and balance transformer,same as idefender)--ARES

Above chain is most optimized for me. 3X power filtration from my Window laptop.


----------



## slex

mr pluto said:


> Thanks Joseph69!
> You have a great setup and interesting rack design also.
> 
> My pics are a bit old. For now the 11mm granite is gone and every piece incl. Ares has it`s personal isolation platform. I took the time and studied vibration control theories a bit. It seems that despite great mass a plain granite is not the best under components because it reflects some frequencies and tends to ring. My DIY platforms combine different materials in several layers and have oak sides that match my table. If I take the pictures one day I will upload my Ares siting on it`s throne.





My DIY isolation platform. Bamboo Tea Tray filled with xtra fine silica sand


----------



## Mr Pluto

slex said:


> My USB out of my window pc as follow:
> 
> Ifi idefender( powered by LPS and balance transformer)--USB cable----Musical Paradise MP1-U ( USB regulated Battery Supply ) ---ifi iSilencer---USB cable--ifi ipurifier2(powered by MP-U1)---Singxer F1 ( powered by MP-U1)---Coax cable---ifi ispdif( powered by LPS and balance transformer,same as idefender)--ARES
> 
> Above chain is most optimized for me. 3X power filtration from my Window laptop.


 

 Thanks for sharing Slex!
 Your thing is so complicated with so many toys and variables that I hope that some manufacturer comes out with a reasonably priced one or 2 box solution that can challenge the top spinner/dac combos. I´m a believer in shorter signal path so I´m not extremely exited about duplicating something or adding a lot of buffers to correct something that is faulty from the beginning. I´ve compared some expensive and highly regarded pc/usb combos in several hi-fi stores but I´m not extremely enthusiastic about buying and building one. I highly doubt that any of them can touch my SA-1. Maybe only the über machines as Burmester 111?
 ..........But I´m open to try some decent digital transport to see how much things will change.
  









 SO ALL DONATIONS FOR MY HOLY EXPERIMENT ARE WELCOME! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






  
 You can donate calling:


----------



## Mr Pluto

slex said:


> My DIY isolation platform. Bamboo Tea Tray filled with xtra fine silica sand


 
 Nice! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I see that you also use cork. It has great damping properties. For what I studied the trick is to use materials with different densities in layers because every material has it`s own counter-effect for certain vibration frequencies.
  
 I see that you use some heavy steel cones under Ares, but what you use under the platform?


----------



## slex

mr pluto said:


> Nice!
> I see that you also use cork. It has great damping properties. For what I studied the trick is to use materials with different densities in layers because every material has it`s own counter-effect for certain vibration frequencies.
> 
> I see that you use some heavy steel cones under Ares, but what you use under the platform?



Yes X3 steel cones under Ares. cork pads under platform.


----------



## Mr Pluto

slex said:


> Yes X3 steel cones under Ares. cork pads under platform.


 

 I have ebony cones/bases with brass tips under Ares and pre platform. Under my amp and spinner platform I use DIY blocks similar to:
http://shop.mapleshadestore.com/Isoblocks/products/1/
  
 My vibration control thing is quite fresh so I will probably experiment with steel cones and many other tweaks (that won`t break a bank) aswell. So it will be a fun experimenting......


----------



## PitBul34

Can you guys describe a heights of Ares more comlicated? I've translated Mr Pluto review to russian language and put it on dastereo.ru (russian digital audio community forum) - 10 likes at this time. But some users doesn't like this review because of "too many sweet" (as they said)  Some people talking about heights problem of Ares in Questyle cma800r amp + Beyerdynamic 880 pro setup. One of the users compared Ares with.... Gustard X12 and said "X12 win, because it has more clear and transparent heights".... Heh Heh  To be honest, i trust my ears and Mr Pluto's review, but please share your experience more complicated, the truth is out there


----------



## lukeap69

What do you mean by heights? Soundstage height?


----------



## rafabro

lukeap69 said:


> What do you mean by heights? Soundstage height?


 
 High frequencies  Treble...


----------



## gunwale

people say Beyerdynamic 880 pro is all treble no bass headphone and is bright. so the guy has to prefer very bright and cold sound.


pitbul34 said:


> Can you guys describe a heights of Ares more comlicated? I've translated Mr Pluto review to russian language and put it on dastereo.ru (russian digital audio community forum) - 10 likes at this time. But some users doesn't like this review because of "too many sweet" (as they said)  Some people talking about heights problem of Ares in Questyle cma800r amp + Beyerdynamic 880 pro setup. One of the users compared Ares with.... Gustard X12 and said "X12 win, because it has more clear and transparent heights".... Heh Heh  To be honest, i trust my ears and Mr Pluto's review, but please share your experience more complicated, the truth is out there


 
 people say Beyerdynamic 880 pro is all treble no bass headphone and is bright. so the guy has to prefer very bright and cold sound.


----------



## joseph69

mr pluto said:


> Thanks Joseph69!
> You have a great setup and interesting rack design also.
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 You're welcome.
 Interesting, I was going to use a piece of granite under my system on my gas fire place, but the weight was just much too heavy…glad I didn't. Thanks for the explanation of the damping material. Look forward to more recent photos.


----------



## Mr Pluto

pitbul34 said:


> Can you guys describe a heights of Ares more comlicated? I've translated Mr Pluto review to russian language and put it on dastereo.ru (russian digital audio community forum) - 10 likes at this time. But some users doesn't like this review because of "too many sweet" (as they said)  Some people talking about heights problem of Ares in Questyle cma800r amp + Beyerdynamic 880 pro setup. One of the users compared Ares with.... Gustard X12 and said "X12 win, because it has more clear and transparent heights".... Heh Heh  To be honest, i trust my ears and Mr Pluto's review, but please share your experience more complicated, the truth is out there


 

 Hi PitBul34,
  
 The SLIGHTLY velvety character of Ares expands on mid-frequencies and also highs. The highs are not very pronounced and super extended but they are clean, well defined and have all the details. It may not be the best DAC for darker sounding systems that are hungry for emphasized treble but if your speakers and other system are reasonably transparent, it is one sweet listen.


----------



## yates7592

miguelpt said:


> I couldn't resit and have just ordered a Terminator!!!
> I'm very happy and exited (-:
> 
> :bigsmile_face:




I've also just ordered a black Terminator. Will be using with Stax SR009 and also Adam S3X-V monitors. I think I'm going to really like this combo. 10-14 days to ship. Will compare to Phasure NOS1A dac but only from memory as it's sold now.

I'm also going to be going from PC via ethernet to Rednet D16 and then AES into Terminator. Do any Ares users here have any thoughts on the best input with good old Redbook? (I realise AES will only go to 192khx and dsd64).


----------



## Mr Pluto

Congrats Yates7592 ! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Opt and coax both are very good on Ares.


----------



## PitBul34

Congrats, Mr Pluto! Denafrips renewed the home page


----------



## krell1967

yates7592 said:


> I've also just ordered a black Terminator. Will be using with Stax SR009 and also Adam S3X-V monitors. I think I'm going to really like this combo. 10-14 days to ship. Will compare to Phasure NOS1A dac but only from memory as it's sold now.
> 
> I'm also going to be going from PC via ethernet to Rednet D16 and then AES into Terminator. Do any Ares users here have any thoughts on the best input with good old Redbook? (I realise AES will only go to 192khx and dsd64).



Great, Paul


----------



## Gfisk

Mr, Pluto,
  
 I am a new member but have been reading here for years now. Your assessment of the Ares has finally put me over the edge and I will be ordering one. I currently run one of the first introduced budget R2R dacs, the Metrum Octave which I believe I paid about $1000.00 U.S. dollars for about 5 years ago. 
  
 While I haven't seen a comparison between the two I get the feeling from other reviews of other dacs, I have a very good chance of being happy with an Ares dac.
  
 May I ask for just a bit more opinion on how the treble compares to other dacs you have had in your system? One of the issues I have had is harsh top end even with the changing of many amps, pre amps, sources and dacs. So, I'm looking for a dac that can tame that harshness down a bit, but of course still deliver on the rest of the goodness I'm used to hearing. 
  
 And also I'm very exited for you with your happiness torwards your new purchase, That is what this audio journey is all about no matter where we live on this wonderful planet of ours. I happen to live in Seattle WA. and while it is a pretty big city it falls very short in regards to places you can audition and buy good audiophile equipment, very sad really. 
  
 Take Care and enjoy your journey!
  
 Greg


----------



## MiguelPT

yates7592 said:


> I've also just ordered a black Terminator.


 
  
 Congratulations! I hope You enjoy it!


----------



## slex

mr pluto said:


> I have ebony cones/bases with brass tips under Ares and pre platform. Under my amp and spinner platform I use DIY blocks similar to:
> http://shop.mapleshadestore.com/Isoblocks/products/1/
> 
> My vibration control thing is quite fresh so I will probably experiment with steel cones and many other tweaks (that won`t break a bank) aswell. So it will be a fun experimenting...... :bigsmile_face:



You will notice on Ares that on transformer's side its quite heavy with unbalance weight distribution. I have 2 cones supporting it and 1 at the opposite side.

Yes i have those audioquest isopads on 3 x amplifiers. Quite reasonably priced and stable.


----------



## Mr Pluto

gfisk said:


> Mr, Pluto,
> 
> I am a new member but have been reading here for years now. Your assessment of the Ares has finally put me over the edge and I will be ordering one. I currently run one of the first introduced budget R2R dacs, the Metrum Octave which I believe I paid about $1000.00 U.S. dollars for about 5 years ago.
> 
> ...


 

 Hi Greg,
 Thanks for a nice words and Congrats on your purchase ! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 The top end of Ares is not harsh at all. I first considered CAL Alpha or Sigma because they are known as warm/tubey sounding old DAC`s and I thought it will be good because the signal from TV is not the best as we know. Now with Ares it is absolutely listenable the nice deep bass and velvety upper-range will not scratch your ear a bit. It`s pleasure easy listen that tonality of reminds me Accuphase house sound in a good way.
  
 But beware, out of box without burn-in the highs are quite horrible. This transforms totally after 50h.


----------



## Mr Pluto

Slex,
  
 That's true. Experimenting with some weight on top of Ares may be a good idea also.


----------



## Mr Pluto

pitbul34 said:


> Congrats, Mr Pluto! Denafrips renewed the home page


 

 WOW! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	

















































































 I gave permission but I didn`t expect that.
  
 Now we all see that High End natural sound, stars from my home...


----------



## PitBul34

mr pluto said:


> WOW!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## rafabro

But vinshineaudio need to polish them web side..
  
 Following Pontus description:
 1. Customized XMOS XU208 USB Interface
 ...
 USB (Amanero USB I2S)
  
 So which one is correct?


----------



## m-i-c-k-e-y

Soekris has released some interesting R2R DACs to complicate the party...


----------



## WNBC

Definitely try to make it here if you can  http://www.head-fi.org/t/842402/seattle-meet-at-bottleheadquarters-05-06-2017/30#post_13448964
 I won't be able to attend, but you'll likely be able to hear the Spring DAC.  I am curious as how my Spring DAC compares to these latest R2Rs.  
  
 If you find places in Seattle let me know.  I know there are a number of places to hear speakers and speaker amps, but as far as headphone related gear I don't know.
  
  
 Quote:


gfisk said:


> Mr, Pluto,
> 
> I am a new member but have been reading here for years now. Your assessment of the Ares has finally put me over the edge and I will be ordering one. I currently run one of the first introduced budget R2R dacs, the Metrum Octave which I believe I paid about $1000.00 U.S. dollars for about 5 years ago.
> 
> ...


----------



## Gfisk

Hello WNBC, thank you for bringing this to my attention. Unfortunately I will be having major back surgery on May 5th so will be out for awhile. Regarding your question about places to hear headphone gear I'm afraid I don't know. At the risk of being cast out I have to say I'm not really a headphone guy but listen to speakers in a dedicated building purposefully built as an audio room. With that said I always enjoy reading what the folks here have to say about USB/SPDIF converters, dacs and the other devises such as the Regen which I also own. I find the people here very knowledgeable and for the most part friendly so thought I would join. Thank you again for pointing this meet out as I would have liked to have gone to it.


----------



## hicr49

Just wondering for those lucky fews who had ordered the Terminator or other DENAFRIPS' newer Dacs have any new insight/update for share?  (I too had been egerly thinking/waiting to maybe give their lower model a try)

Gfisk, all the best to your upcoming surgery!


----------



## WNBC

Wishing you a speedy recovery after the back surgery.

I am going to be setting up a small speaker room in the near future so I might need to pick your brain as I have been primarily a headphone guy.



Gfisk said:


> Hello WNBC, thank you for bringing this to my attention. Unfortunately I will be having major back surgery on May 5th so will be out for awhile. Regarding your question about places to hear headphone gear I'm afraid I don't know. At the risk of being cast out I have to say I'm not really a headphone guy but listen to speakers in a dedicated building purposefully built as an audio room. With that said I always enjoy reading what the folks here have to say about USB/SPDIF converters, dacs and the other devises such as the Regen which I also own. I find the people here very knowledgeable and for the most part friendly so thought I would join. Thank you again for pointing this meet out as I would have liked to have gone to it.


----------



## Gfisk

Thank you hirc49 and WNBC for the well wishes, very kind of both of you indeed!

WNBC, I would be happy to give you input on preamp amp combos and or speakers. Let me know what your budget and room is like and we can go from there. If you are on a budget there are a lot of choices these days with integrated amps and bookshelf type speaker set ups that are really amazing for the money. 

I don't see how to PM people on here, maybe because I don't have enough posts? Anyway, thanks to both of you again for the well wishes and hopefully it will be a success.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

I would upload some pictures but direct cell phone uploads doesn't seem to be doing me any good at the moment. 

I have received the first shipment of a Denafrips Pontus. It's been playing for 12 hours now, so far so good but I'll do critical listening at 100hrs.


----------



## Mr Pluto

Congrats Sundsgoodtome! 

Was your Pontus also shrill out of box without burn-in?
Please let us know how it sounds after 100h


----------



## bodhidharma

Soundsgoodtome said:


> I would upload some pictures but direct cell phone uploads doesn't seem to be doing me any good at the moment.
> 
> I have received the first shipment of a Denafrips Pontus. It's been playing for 12 hours now, so far so good but I'll do critical listening at 100hrs.



Fantastic! I had long been waiting for someone to report the Pontus listening, I ordered one but it will be shipped around May 15th. I will follow your listening impressions with great care.
Thank you


----------



## Soundsgoodtome (Apr 29, 2017)

I wouldn't necessarily call it shrill but it is close, if there's such thing as a shrill veil without being distortion then it has a hint of it. 12hrs in and it is already sounding very good. I used to own the Spring KTE Level 3 as well and I can tell that the tuning is very similar with a slight emphasis on a liquid mid/mid high. As of right the 12hr mark I would say the Spring Level 3 (which was fully burned in at over 500hrs) has a level of clarity above the Pontus with better attack and decay. However I can hear Pontus aiming in that direction, a quick listen this morning at 24hr mark shows even more improvement heading into that level of TOTL clarity the Spring KTE3 had.

*Should we put a dedicated thread for the Pontus rather than add to the Ares thread?



Mr Pluto said:



			Congrats Sundsgoodtome! 

Was your Pontus also shrill out of box without burn-in?
Please let us know how it sounds after 100h 

Click to expand...




bodhidharma said:



			Fantastic! I had long been waiting for someone to report the Pontus listening, I ordered one but it will be shipped around May 15th. I will follow your listening impressions with great care.
Thank you
		
Click to expand...

*


----------



## slex

Soundsgoodtome. Are you listening in NOS mode?


----------



## Mr Pluto

Soundsgoodtome said:


> I wouldn't necessarily call it shrill but it is close, if there's such thing as a shrill veil without being distortion then it has a hint of it. 12hrs in and it is already sounding very good. I used to own the Spring KTE Level 3 as well and I can tell that the tuning is very similar with a slight emphasis on a liquid mid/mid high. As of right the 12hr mark I would say the Spring Level 3 (which was fully burned in at over 500hrs) has a level of clarity above the Pontus with better attack and decay. However I can hear Pontus aiming in that direction, a quick listen this morning at 24hr mark shows even more improvement heading into that level of TOTL clarity the Spring KTE3 had.
> 
> *Should we put a dedicated thread for the Pontus rather than add to the Ares thread?
> 
> ...


Thanks for the quick overview! 
After 12h Ares also sounded very good already. I meant first 1-2h right out of the box.

Did your Pontus also shine on the deep 3D soundstage?

I suppose we can discuss all Denafrips DAC`s here in this thread.


----------



## bodhidharma

Soundsgoodtome said:


> I wouldn't necessarily call it shrill but it is close, if there's such thing as a shrill veil without being distortion then it has a hint of it. 12hrs in and it is already sounding very good. I used to own the Spring KTE Level 3 as well and I can tell that the tuning is very similar with a slight emphasis on a liquid mid/mid high. As of right the 12hr mark I would say the Spring Level 3 (which was fully burned in at over 500hrs) has a level of clarity above the Pontus with better attack and decay. However I can hear Pontus aiming in that direction, a quick listen this morning at 24hr mark shows even more improvement heading into that level of TOTL clarity the Spring KTE3 had.
> 
> *Should we put a dedicated thread for the Pontus rather than add to the Ares thread?
> 
> ...


Well, it looks really promising, if after 24 hours it's so good, it could come to really remarkable levels, considering that the R2R DACs need a long time to burn in completely.


----------



## willsw

I've allowed my Ares to fully burn in and done a comparison with the DAC I've had for a while now, the Wavelength Brick V2, which is a TDA1543 (16/44 max) NOS DAC that retails for $1750 (I purchased it used for about a third of that, as it has been around since 2005). 

On my speaker system the Ares had more impactful bass. The Wavelength was superior in depth, instrument separation, vocal realism, and pretty much all of those properties that one looks for when seeking an immersive experience with their music. It was not always a significant difference, as in vocals, which were close, but the sum of the test is that I'll continue to seek a new DAC (trying to sell the Brick as I need more than the USB input it offers) that can surpass a very well implemented redbook chip. 

To put my review in perspective, I also put the Wavelength up against the Metrum Musette and had similar results. I do have hope that the new DAC2 modules with FPGA incorporated will bring the Musette to new heights. 

I'll be hanging on to the Ares and doing some more comparisons with it. I'd like to also compare it directly to the Musette, as well as to the MHDT Labs Stockholm V2.


----------



## Mr Pluto

willsw said:


> I've allowed my Ares to fully burn in and done a comparison with the DAC I've had for a while now, the Wavelength Brick V2, which is a TDA1543 (16/44 max) NOS DAC that retails for $1750 (I purchased it used for about a third of that, as it has been around since 2005).
> 
> On my speaker system the Ares had more impactful bass. The Wavelength was superior in depth, instrument separation, vocal realism, and pretty much all of those properties that one looks for when seeking an immersive experience with their music. It was not always a significant difference, as in vocals, which were close, but the sum of the test is that I'll continue to seek a new DAC (trying to sell the Brick as I need more than the USB input it offers) that can surpass a very well implemented redbook chip.
> 
> ...



Thanks for sharing your experience Willsw! 

Wavelength must be something very special to beat the soundstage depth of ARES. Of course it`s all system dependent also.
May I ask, if your comparison was made on Headphones or speakers?
Did you have the ability to do a straight A/B from a sweetspot (in case of speakers)?


----------



## willsw

Mr Pluto said:


> Thanks for sharing your experience Willsw!
> 
> Wavelength must be something very special to beat the soundstage depth of ARES. Of course it`s all system dependent also.
> May I ask, if your comparison was made on Headphones or speakers?
> Did you have the ability to do a straight A/B from a sweetspot (in case of speakers)?



The designer of Wavelength is one of the most significant in digital audio, so I imagine he knows his way around a DAC. 

It is system dependent and I forgot to mention an important caveat: I am using a single-ended system. For the listening test I did use the balanced outputs of the Ares through a balanced-to-single-ended converter I made with Cinemag transformers and no attenuation, so while I think I heard very close to the Ares' full capabilities, it is likely a truly balanced system could extract a tiny bit more. I've been alternating my listening to the Ares between the single-ended outputs, simple XLR-RCA cables, and the converter, and have not been able to identify any significant differences in sound. 

I was listening with speakers–Tekton Lore-S–and used the Schiit Saga in passive mode to remotely switch between inputs, so I could A/B from a single spot. The source was Jriver outputting the same music into the USB inputs of the DACs. I might try another A/B using a Schiit Wyrd in the chain of the Ares, and also one using a USB>SPDIF converter to use the coaxial input. 

I'll also say that before doing this test the Wavelength was sitting around waiting to be sold and I was enjoying my music immensely with the Ares in the system.


----------



## WhiskeyJacks

Wanted to ask is there any kind of tracking when ordering the Ares DAC from Vinshine Audio store page to a residency in the United States? I was just wondering if there is a way to have an idea when it would arrive due to work and other responsibilities that keep me from home, and the Fedex/DHL  are not the best about where they place my mail or packages when I am gone on my long my shift and what not. If someone that ordered from Vinshine audio that was in the Eastern states(CT currently) and could let me know I would appreciate it immensely, thanks for your time.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome (May 2, 2017)

Yes, I'm strictly in NOS mode. I've found that in the Holo Spring Dac the non-oversampling sounded superior. So currently I have SOX resampler on Foobar2K player upsampling in best quality to 192khz and have the PONTUS in NOS mode. Seems to be the best way to run it, although I have not had much listening time in OS mode or NOS mode without upsampling from Foobar.


slex said:


> Soundsgoodtome. Are you listening in NOS mode?



I'm guessing that by now I have somewhere in the 100hr mark, one of the nights I accidentally stopped music on my computer (even with my amplifiers off) to keep the DAC cooking/playing. Goal is 200hrs for a full settle imo.  This Saturday I will be making the PONTUS debut at the Seattle Bottlehead meet. I will be setting up next to a Holo Spring Level 1 DAC and we'll have both Spring and PONTUS feeding into a Schiit Freya preamp (tube or JFET) and then going into a Cayin iHA6 amp. It'll make for a great A/B session between the two as my Breeze DU-U9 can feed both dacs with the same digital data.


bodhidharma said:


> Well, it looks really promising, if after 24 hours it's so good, it could come to really remarkable levels, considering that the R2R DACs need a long time to burn in completely.


----------



## Mr Pluto

WhiskeyJacks said:


> Wanted to ask is there any kind of tracking when ordering the Ares DAC from Vinshine Audio store page to a residency in the United States? I was just wondering if there is a way to have an idea when it would arrive due to work and other responsibilities that keep me from home, and the Fedex/DHL  are not the best about where they place my mail or packages when I am gone on my long my shift and what not. If someone that ordered from Vinshine audio that was in the Eastern states(CT currently) and could let me know I would appreciate it immensely, thanks for your time.


I suppose you must ask Alvin about the shipping possibilities to US. To Europe it was 4day DHL with tracking for only $50 for Ares.


----------



## Mr Pluto

Thanks Willsw and Soundsgoodtome!

For me it would be more interesting if you can A/B the Wavelength Brick V2 and Holo to Ares via SPDIF feed by some decent spinner. The USB thing has so many different variables that the results may not reveal a true DNA of each machine.


----------



## bodhidharma

[Quote = "Soundsgoodtome post: 13466635, membro: 364.354"] Sì, sono rigorosamente in modalità NOS. Ho scoperto che nella primavera Holo Dac il non-oversampling suonava superiore. Così Attualmente ho SOX resampler su Foobar2K giocatore upsampling nella migliore qualità a 192kHz e hanno la modalità PONTUS in NOS. Sembra essere il modo migliore per farlo funzionare, anche se non ho avuto il tempo di ascolto molto in modalità OS o in modalità NAS senza aumenta la frequenza da Foobar.


Sto indovinando che ormai ho da qualche parte nel marchio 100hr, una delle notti ho accidentalmente fermato la musica sul mio computer (anche con i miei amplificatori off) per mantenere il DAC cottura / gioco. Obiettivo è 200hrs per una cassapanca piena imo.  Questo Sabato ho farà il debutto PONTUS al raduno di Seattle Bottlehead . Sarò installando accanto a un livello 1 DAC Holo primavera e avremo sia primavera e PONTUS alimentazione in un preamplificatore Schiit Freya (tubo o JFET) e poi andare in un amplificatore Cayin iHA6. Ti farà per una grande sessione di A / B tra i due come il mio Breeze DU-U9 può alimentare entrambi i DAC con gli stessi dati digitali. [/ QUOTE]

But after 100 hours how does it go to Holo Level 3?


----------



## AmusedToD

Decided to take the plunge in this one in order to replace the Chord Mojo as my desktop DAC. Initially wanted to wait for the Chord Hugo 2, but I'm not sure it's worth the price if I won't be using it with headphones (and it's the same chip as in the Mojo, albeit much better implementation). Plus I am tired of looking after the battery in the Mojo and using different adapters because if it's "unfriendly" inputs and outputs. The same will apply to the Hugo 2.


----------



## Mr Pluto

Congrats AmusedToD ! 

No offense but the chord dac`s look like a toys. I`m confident that with Ares you get many times more for the money.


----------



## joseph69

Mr Pluto said:


> Congrats AmusedToD !
> 
> No offense but the chord dac`s look like a toys. I`m confident that with Ares you get many times more for the money.


They do look like toys.


----------



## Goodman007

Hello!
Already many have bought a DAC Terminator!
I would very much like to see detailed photos of the DAC and reviews and comparisons.
Please write dear owners!
Sorry for my english ).


----------



## yates7592

My Terminator is on final testing and is scheduled to ship on Monday, so hopefully I will be able to give some impressions in the next 10 days or so.


----------



## AmusedToD

Mr Pluto said:


> Congrats AmusedToD !
> 
> No offense but the chord dac`s look like a toys. I`m confident that with Ares you get many times more for the money.



Thanks, Mr Pluto  I hope it will match well with my Naim based system:

iMac i7 16GB (Roon core) - Audiquest Pearl CAT7 Ethernet cable (bridged mode) - Sotm SMS-200 streamer (Roon endpoint) powered by Sbooster BOTW P&P Eco 12.3v - IFi iDefender3.0 - IFi nano iUSB3.0 powered by Sbooster 9v - Chord C-USB cable - *Denafrips Ares DAC *- Tellurium Q Ultra Black RCA-RCA - Naim Supernait powered by Naim Powerline and Naim HiCap DR - Tellurium Q Ultra Black speaker cable - Dynaudio Focus 260.

The bottleneck is the Chord USB cable, but still can't decide which USB cable to go for (the highly praised Curious is too expensive for a USB cable, not sure it's worth the price at $340).

The Supernait has high input sensitivity and generally doesn't like the 3V line level output of Chord DACs. Initially wanted to go for the 2Qute, but it doesn't offer volume control like the Mojo and Hugo/Hugo 2 (where one can actually lower the output level through the volume control), so it as a no go. The Ares RCA output level is 2.2V which is more appropriate for my Supernait. 

I would love to see a review (direct comparison) between the Ares and Chord 2Qute/Hugo.


----------



## willsw

AmusedToD said:


> I would love to see a review (direct comparison) between the Ares and Chord 2Qute/Hugo.



I can do, at some point, a direct comparison with the 2qute. Don't have easy access to a Hugo. 

Unfortunately, my amp is having some sort of trouble. I may be able to borrow one, or just bring the Ares to work.


----------



## bodhidharma

AmusedToD said:


> Thanks, Mr Pluto  I hope it will match well with my Naim based system:
> 
> iMac i7 16GB (Roon core) - Audiquest Pearl CAT7 Ethernet cable (bridged mode) - Sotm SMS-200 streamer (Roon endpoint) powered by Sbooster BOTW P&P Eco 12.3v - IFi iDefender3.0 - IFi nano iUSB3.0 powered by Sbooster 9v - Chord C-USB cable - *Denafrips Ares DAC *- Tellurium Q Ultra Black RCA-RCA - Naim Supernait powered by Naim Powerline and Naim HiCap DR - Tellurium Q Ultra Black speaker cable - Dynaudio Focus 260.
> 
> ...



The Curious Cable is worth 2-3 times its price, currently it is the best commercial usb cable, I have it in my high resolution system and it's extraordinary.


----------



## AmusedToD

willsw said:


> I can do, at some point, a direct comparison with the 2qute. Don't have easy access to a Hugo.
> 
> Unfortunately, my amp is having some sort of trouble. I may be able to borrow one, or just bring the Ares to work.



I would love to hear the results of such comparison!


----------



## AmusedToD

bodhidharma said:


> The Curious Cable is worth 2-3 times its price, currently it is the best commercial usb cable, I have it in my high resolution system and it's extraordinary.



Well, perhaps, but $380 plus duties and customs is a bit too much for me for a digital cable. I would be happy to grab a used one half price...


----------



## Light - Man

Furutech ADL Formula 2 USB cable is a very good cable, I have mine for over 3 years and am happy with it and I have no desire to upgrade any further.

I also heard good things about Supra USB cables but have never tried them

https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/Cables/F...8&qid=1494012783&sr=1-2&keywords=furutech+usb


----------



## AmusedToD

I am more inclined towards something like this http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=PGUSBXL


----------



## Clarinetmonster2

Please, Please Please do that comparison of the Ares with the 2Qute, and soon! I am supposed to be buying my friend's 2Qute next week, unless.......


----------



## willsw

Clarinetmonster2 said:


> Please, Please Please do that comparison of the Ares with the 2Qute, and soon! I am supposed to be buying my friend's 2Qute next week, unless.......



I should have some time to do it tomorrow. I'll also try to have some other ears participate.


----------



## AmusedToD

willsw said:


> I should have some time to do it tomorrow. I'll also try to have some other ears participate.



Can't wait for the results! I just hope I didn't make a mistake by ordering the Ares instead of the 2Qute, but the lower output voltage of the Ares definitely scored a point in my book (apart from the great reviews).


----------



## willsw

Clarinetmonster2 said:


> Please, Please Please do that comparison of the Ares with the 2Qute, and soon! I am supposed to be buying my friend's 2Qute next week, unless.......





AmusedToD said:


> Can't wait for the results! I just hope I didn't make a mistake by ordering the Ares instead of the 2Qute, but the lower output voltage of the Ares definitely scored a point in my book (apart from the great reviews).



I've done some listening on headphones but need to work on other things for the next several hours so I'll post my impressions so far. The first setup was a dedicated music server (high quality USB outputs) into the USB of the 2qute and the Ares. (Side note: other listening tests have shown the 2qute to have one of the best USB inputs out there.) These are going into input 1 and 2 of an MZ2-S, and then Ether Flows. Listening to a reference album for me, the soundtrack to The Grand Hotel Budapest, I found the 2qute to have a definite edge in layering and depth of stage. The Ares does not sound compressed, but when switching to the 2qute there was more air between instruments. 

After listening to several tracks, which had both instruments and choral voices, the Ares started to distort every minute or so, as I've found my unit to do when using the USB input regardless of source. I thus switched to the digital coax output of an ibasso DX80, which is a relatively high quality digital output. Things were not perfectly synced for switching between input 1 and 2, but they were within a second apart. 

Listening to Avishai Cohen's Into the Silence, a slow jazz album, the 2qute had significantly more low-end detail. I switched to Bonnie Prince Billy's Now Here's My Plan and the difference in detail in the lower registers was again quickly apparent, but before I could listen more to the vocals I was called away to get going on work-work, which I must now do. 

I'll try to do more listening, and some speaker comparisons, later today. 

As a reminder, this is an $1800 (though now $1300 most places) DAC vs. a $600 one. I still think the Ares is an excellent performer in its price range.


----------



## AmusedToD

Interesting read, I enjoyed your review. The 2Qute is an excellent machine, and would certainly be at the very top of my radar if it didn't have such high output level.

Please post your review of the two with a dedicated amp and speakers if possible.

Are the differences between the two subtle or significant? Yes, the Chord is more expensive, but probably one third or more of its price goes to its origin and more expensive labour (UK).


----------



## Mr Pluto

Yep, We must all consider that everything is taste, system, room matching components, etc. etc. ....... dependent. The more different components and links in signal path, the higher the error rate.

But as I never had any Chord, I apologize and my comments where based only on the looks and some logic.

I sincerely hope that this thread will not go to the Audiogon forums rote (mine is the latest and greatest, so it`s more expensive and therefore vastly superior all others) type of thread. 

P.S. There are some old and very old classic "price no object" gear that can easily rival or beat the latest and greatest today (also in digital)!  
No real paradigm change has happened in the last 20 or more years. Some new chips, clocks etc. but nothing much more to really consider. Good PCM still sound better than full DSD on decent gear (again depending on setup, recording and taste).

Lets just enjoy a beautiful music and share our wonderful experiences!

Have a nice weekend !

AL :=))


----------



## AmusedToD (May 6, 2017)

The only reason I am selling my Mojo is that it's not a real desktop solution. I need something to plug and forget, not worry about its battery or use a dozen adapters. But other than that, it's a brutal little machine sound wise, a real giant killer. I've tested the Mojo against several much more expensive solutions, and it fared very favorably against them. So I do know Chord.

But I do hope the Ares won't be worse. If it equals the Mojo or appears to be better, then I will be very happy with my purchase.

Just received the tracking number from Alvin (Vinshine Audio) today!


----------



## willsw

I'm aware that the price difference isn't something we should use as an indicator of quality, but it is worth noting. To be honest, nothing about the 2qute appeals to me and it has always seemed overpriced, and if I'm not certain I'm hearing a difference I'll say so, but there was a difference that I found clear. And in the Wavelength comparison I was very ready to believe that the brand-new Ares would blow away the twelve year-old DAC with the 16/44 chip, but I heard what I heard. 

I'm also certain my hearing isn't as fine as others or listening for the same things. 

I have a Mojo here also, I could do a quick comparison. I feel pretty confident the Ares will be preferable.


----------



## Mr Pluto

One more note I wanted to add.... 
The differences may not be so evident if you don`t do the A/B comparison via remote from your sweetspot. Some components are almost impossible to A/B this way, so the ony other way is to live/listen to something in your system for a long period and see you miss something when you change it or vice versa.

Ares is a super, super DAC and for the price (in some cases up to 10X more) it`s probably extremely hard to beat. It`s also the lowest in Denafrips foodchain, so it`s quite an achievement! 
But It certainly will not play in the very top league with price no object S.O.T.A digital. Probably Venus or Terminator are there, but currently I can`t pull the trigger as I have several more essential investments to be made. But DAC-wise they are at the very top of my list!


----------



## willsw

A quick comparison between the Metrum Musette and the Ares had me struggling to tell them apart. I thought I might again detect a slightly less airy presentation in the Ares, but I can't be sure. Unfortunately the Mojo was not charged so that one will have to wait. 
Today's listening comparisons were not complete, and I'll follow up with more thorough ones as soon as I can. If I hear things to change my opinion, I'm happy to change my opinion. I think the Ares is as fine a DAC as you'll find up to $1000 new. If you're finding that your $6000 DAC isn't cutting it against the Ares, I think you made a terrible decision in your original purchase.


----------



## AmusedToD

Please post some Ares-Mojo or Ares-2Qute comparisons in a full desktop setup. I will as soon as my Ares gets delivered.


----------



## willsw

I'll post some more, and hopefully have some other people give some thoughts. I left the Ares at work, so the guys who work there can probably take time to have a listen, and I'll take it to a head-fi meet on the 20th where it will hopefully be able to be compared to a Bimby, which is the real direct competitor here at the exact same price point and multibit appeal. Even in meet conditions, hopefully someone can tell, and maybe I'll be able to borrow the Bimby.


----------



## Mr Pluto

willsw said:


> A quick comparison between the Metrum Musette and the Ares had me struggling to tell them apart. I thought I might again detect a slightly less airy presentation in the Ares, but I can't be sure. Unfortunately the Mojo was not charged so that one will have to wait.
> Today's listening comparisons were not complete, and I'll follow up with more thorough ones as soon as I can. If I hear things to change my opinion, I'm happy to change my opinion. I think the Ares is as fine a DAC as you'll find up to $1000 new. If you're finding that your $6000 DAC isn't cutting it against the Ares, I think you made a terrible decision in your original purchase.



Thanks! 
Can you please specify what setup are you using? Headphones or speakers, did your pre and other setup allowed a fair A/B?
 Funny new smiles....:=))


----------



## rudra

Dgtman3 said:


> Curious if any Ares owners have tried up-sampled DSD 512 files on HQ Player and if they experienced any
> benefits. Been reading forums saying great results are had doing this with T&A and Holo Spring dacs.



ARES does not play DSD 512. I have upsampled to DSD256 using HQ player. Benefits are system and ear dependant.


----------



## willsw

Mr Pluto said:


> Thanks!
> Can you please specify what setup are you using? Headphones or speakers, did your pre and other setup allowed a fair A/B?
> Funny new smiles....:=))



This was the setup for the 2qute, which I changed after a few songs, and was also the setup for the very quick Musette comparison. With the input toggle switch I could switch immediately back and forth between DACs, though the sources ended up not being identical and the volume had to be adjusted. Regarding that imperfection, I hoped that getting used to changing the volume quickly and accurately, and repeated listenings of the same samples to make sure differences were consistent, would make the comparison worthwhile:

The first setup was a dedicated music server (high quality USB outputs) into the USB of the 2qute and the Ares. (Side note: other listening tests have shown the 2qute to have one of the best USB inputs out there.) These are going into input 1 and 2 of an MZ2-S, and then Ether Flows. 

After listening to several tracks, which had both instruments and choral voices, the Ares started to distort every minute or so, as I've found my unit to sometimes do when using the USB input regardless of source. I thus switched to the digital coax output of an ibasso DX80, which is a relatively high quality digital output, using the same digital source files. Things were not perfectly synced for switching between input 1 and 2, but they were within a second apart. 

The previous comparison, with the Wavelength Brick, was done with my Macbook feeding USB via Jriver to both DACs, which went into the remote-switchable inputs of the Schiit Saga that I use as a passive remote preamp to an Elekit TU-8200, which feed Tekton Lore-S speakers. With Schiit's remote, I could switch between sources without moving. For future speaker comparisons (now that I've taken the DAC to work) I'll have to get some assistance in order to switch sources without leaving the listening position.


----------



## AmusedToD

You are saying that the USB input of the Ares causes distortion every minute or so? What kind of distortion? Why is that the case? Did you get in touch with the Denafrips customer support?


----------



## willsw

AmusedToD said:


> You are saying that the USB input of the Ares causes distortion every minute or so? What kind of distortion? Why is that the case? Did you get in touch with the Denafrips customer support?



I wasn't sure it wasn't just my computer's interaction with the DAC until I took it to the store, and since I only used the USB input when doing comparisons I didn't think about it that much. It's not consistent, and sometimes doesn't happen while it happens often other times, and it's kind of like losing signal on a radio station for a second; it gets very garbled. 

My unit was originally purchased from Vinshine Audio, but I bought it secondhand about a week after the original purchaser received it. I've just sent an email to them to see if this is something I could possibly have fixed by techs here.


----------



## macan

1st post in headfi! I am in the market for new DAC to replace my PS Audio Nuwave (PCM), i'm confused with many choices in the market (old folks here, pardon me). It seems like the discrete R2R DAC is the latest trend? DENAFRIPS Ares reviews are terrific, worth the money ?


----------



## AmusedToD

Apparently so. My Ares is on the way from Hong Kong. It appears to be a great choice for the money. There are some glowing reviews in this thread. The only concern I have is reliability, but the 3 year manufacturer warranty sounds good.


----------



## Sanlitun

As it is no longer possible to search a thread... I was wanting to ask if there are any published measurements for these DACs yet?


----------



## bodhidharma

But no one has any listening experience with Pontus?


----------



## Rok5ann

Hi everybody, I’m having some issues with the USB connection of my Ares. I have connected the Ares via USB to my Mac Mini (late 2014) with OS Sierra and I’m using Jriver 22 as player. The problem is that the USB connection to the Ares crashes randomly and Jriver hangs. It’s necessary to push the stop button in Jriver and then, after a few seconds, the player starts again. I have tried also with the Spotify app and with Audirvana 3+ but the problem is still the same. Spotify needs a restart of the app. Sometimes the connection can be ok for hours, sometimes it crashes many times in 5 minutes. I have tried to replace the USB cable (Wireworld Starlight) but the problem is still the same. I have tried to downgrade the Mac OS from Sierra to Yosemite but the problem is still the same. I have tried to change the OS energy saving settings but the problem is still the same. I have tried to boot the Mac Mini with Daphile and the connection crash is the same but Daphile after a second of stop starts to play again. The only solution I have found is to connect the Ares to the Mac mini through a usb2 hub, but audio quality is getting worse. I have tried the Ares with an old laptop with Windows 7 and it works perfectly, so the problems seems to be on the Mac mini USB bus even if I had recently two dacs: Rega-R Dac and Matrix Xsabre and I didn’t have any issues. I'm wondering if any of you are using the Ares with a Mac Mini and what model and OSX version. I have found a used Mini late 2012 and I’m thinking to buy it but I’m not sure if I can solve my problem. I think the USB hardware should be different in the Late 2012 but I’m not sure.

Thanks Max


----------



## mordicai

Rok5ann said:


> Hi everybody, I’m having some issues with the USB connection of my Ares. I have connected the Ares via USB to my Mac Mini (late 2014) with OS Sierra and I’m using Jriver 22 as player. The problem is that the USB connection to the Ares crashes randomly and Jriver hangs. It’s necessary to push the stop button in Jriver and then, after a few seconds, the player starts again. I have tried also with the Spotify app and with Audirvana 3+ but the problem is still the same. Spotify needs a restart of the app. Sometimes the connection can be ok for hours, sometimes it crashes many times in 5 minutes. I have tried to replace the USB cable (Wireworld Starlight) but the problem is still the same. I have tried to downgrade the Mac OS from Sierra to Yosemite but the problem is still the same. I have tried to change the OS energy saving settings but the problem is still the same. I have tried to boot the Mac Mini with Daphile and the connection crash is the same but Daphile after a second of stop starts to play again. The only solution I have found is to connect the Ares to the Mac mini through a usb2 hub, but audio quality is getting worse. I have tried the Ares with an old laptop with Windows 7 and it works perfectly, so the problems seems to be on the Mac mini USB bus even if I had recently two dacs: Rega-R Dac and Matrix Xsabre and I didn’t have any issues. I'm wondering if any of you are using the Ares with a Mac Mini and what model and OSX version. I have found a used Mini late 2012 and I’m thinking to buy it but I’m not sure if I can solve my problem. I think the USB hardware should be different in the Late 2012 but I’m not sure.
> 
> Thanks Max


Hi Max, I use a MacBook pro with a Gustard 20 playing mostly 256 DSD and up sample PCM to DSD 256 using JRiver. I had a lot of problems with my USB  output on the Mac. With me they just didn't cut it. I solved the problem by buying a OWC Thunderbolt  Dock. Thunderbolt out of the MAC and then usb from the dock onwards. Haven't had any problems since. Those older Mac USB ports suck, which is why they developed Thunderbolt and now USD C.


----------



## soundfanz

mordicai said:


> Hi Max, I use a MacBook pro with a Gustard 20 playing mostly 256 DSD and up sample PCM to DSD 256 using JRiver. I had a lot of problems with my USB  output on the Mac. With me they just didn't cut it. I solved the problem by buying a OWC Thunderbolt  Dock. Thunderbolt out of the MAC and then usb from the dock onwards. Haven't had any problems since. Those older Mac USB ports suck, which is why they developed Thunderbolt and now USD C.


----------



## soundfanz

Interesting. I use 2009 macbook, use tidal via audirvana 3, straight into Ares via usb.
Works just fine.


----------



## mordicai

FWIW I use a Supra $50 USB cable which I love. I was turned on to Supra by the talented folks are Botlehead, who think its good stuff.


----------



## mordicai

soundfanz said:


> Interesting. I use 2009 macbook, use tidal via audirvana 3, straight into Ares via usb.
> Works just fine.


Maybe my computer is a lemon


----------



## alvin1118

soundfanz said:


> Interesting. I use 2009 macbook, use tidal via audirvana 3, straight into Ares via usb.
> Works just fine.



I recall i teamviewer a Windows PC previously ? Was it a apple with windows OS ?


----------



## Mr Pluto

Rok5ann said:


> Hi everybody, I’m having some issues with the USB connection of my Ares. I have connected the Ares via USB to my Mac Mini (late 2014) with OS Sierra and I’m using Jriver 22 as player. The problem is that the USB connection to the Ares crashes randomly and Jriver hangs. It’s necessary to push the stop button in Jriver and then, after a few seconds, the player starts again. I have tried also with the Spotify app and with Audirvana 3+ but the problem is still the same. Spotify needs a restart of the app. Sometimes the connection can be ok for hours, sometimes it crashes many times in 5 minutes. I have tried to replace the USB cable (Wireworld Starlight) but the problem is still the same. I have tried to downgrade the Mac OS from Sierra to Yosemite but the problem is still the same. I have tried to change the OS energy saving settings but the problem is still the same. I have tried to boot the Mac Mini with Daphile and the connection crash is the same but Daphile after a second of stop starts to play again. The only solution I have found is to connect the Ares to the Mac mini through a usb2 hub, but audio quality is getting worse. I have tried the Ares with an old laptop with Windows 7 and it works perfectly, so the problems seems to be on the Mac mini USB bus even if I had recently two dacs: Rega-R Dac and Matrix Xsabre and I didn’t have any issues. I'm wondering if any of you are using the Ares with a Mac Mini and what model and OSX version. I have found a used Mini late 2012 and I’m thinking to buy it but I’m not sure if I can solve my problem. I think the USB hardware should be different in the Late 2012 but I’m not sure.
> 
> Thanks Max



If it`s some strolling fault with random hangs and crashes it is probably related to the computer. Maybe some updates or other automatic scheduled priority processes are causing the trouble. Maybe firewall etc.
I have no experience with Mac but Foobar2000 on my Win7 laptop was working stable via Ares USB. 

The fancy USB cables won`t help here. Instead spending money on USB cable I´d put it on a dedicated digital transport first.


----------



## soundfanz

alvin1118 said:


> I recall i teamviewer a Windows PC previously ? Was it a apple with windows OS ?



Hi Alvin,

I have since purchased a second hand MacBook so that I could run Audirvana 3, which couldn't work on my windows based laptop. I think I may have already mentioned it, but the USB implementation of the Ares was so good that the USB Regen and LPS I put in the chain provided no improvements. So I sold them.


----------



## Mr Pluto

mordicai said:


> Maybe my computer is a lemon


No worries! Format C: and it`s new again. :=))


----------



## WhiskeyJacks

Received the ares dac this past Monday and hooked it up right away to my Alo Pan Am amp with GE Jan 5654 w tubes and vokshod Russian rocket  branded tubes. I have paired it with zmf Omni headphones monolith m1060 headphones hd6xx headphones  audiofly AF 1120 iems. 

Honestly Straight Out of the Box I was impressed I was told from several sources and members I trust that to let it burn in for a good amount of time. And at this current moment I would say I have about 35 hours on it comparing it two 2013 version of the audio GD nfb 28 which implements Sabre 9018 DAC chips and which I have enjoyed it's detailed, wide, and smooth playback for the past 3 years. I'll be honest I was surprised that I enjoyed all the music I listen to, which stems from anything from genres such as classical to Progressive instrumental /prog rock to Indie /alternative to Hip Hop to folk and Blues, more with the denafrips Ares DAC. As far as I can tell The width of the staging is about the same but with noticeably more depth and height giving it all round more 3D atmosphere which pairing with an open headphone that has good resolution and separation makes for a very enjoyable and realistic listening environment. I don't feel like this is an overly colored source which suits me just fine preferring closer to neutral but with good body, separation in detail, and without sounding harsh or too dry is usually what I prefer for my sources. With any coloration coming from either the headphone depending on my mood or a specific amplifier. There is very good retrieval of detail and also what seems to be very good total balance throughout the frequencies as far as I can tell. I am truly looking forward to listening further and getting ample hours of enjoyment from going through my favorite collections of Flac files and CDs, and if any Audible differences are heard from further burn in of the dac  I will definitely post about it. 

When I get some XLR cables I will pair Ares DAC with the balanced class a amplifier from the nfb 28 which is very powerful and a very good discrete amplifier. I am sorry if this was overly long I am at a 12 hour shift at work and it's been very slow giving me time to write this out here and there, and later on this week when I get you really test out the headphones I own I compare them from each other the difference is that I hear from the two dacs into the same amplifier if worth noting I will post about it


----------



## DronEvil

Very interested in hearing about Pontus if/when someone has heard it. 

A comparison of Pontus vs Holo Spring would be divine as those are the two DACs i'm trying to decide between.

Has anyone dealt with Denafrips support at all yet? I'm curious what their warranty/support is like, and if anyone has inquired if they have a way to safely/easily replace parts on devices when they fail considering how tightly packet they are on the board.


----------



## Mr Pluto

*WhiskeyJacks*,
Thanks for a nice overview!

It would be interesting to hear the impressions from a lucky Terminator owners also. I hope that Krell1967, PitBul34 and other Terminators  can share their feelings a bit............


----------



## soundfanz

WhiskeyJacks said:


> Received the ares dac this past Monday and hooked it up right away to my Alo Pan Am amp with GE Jan 5654 w tubes and vokshod Russian rocket  branded tubes. I have paired it with zmf Omni headphones monolith m1060 headphones hd6xx headphones  audiofly AF 1120 iems.
> 
> Honestly Straight Out of the Box I was impressed I was told from several sources and members I trust that to let it burn in for a good amount of time. And at this current moment I would say I have about 35 hours on it comparing it two 2013 version of the audio GD nfb 28 which implements Sabre 9018 DAC chips and which I have enjoyed it's detailed, wide, and smooth playback for the past 3 years. I'll be honest I was surprised that I enjoyed all the music I listen to, which stems from anything from genres such as classical to Progressive instrumental /prog rock to Indie /alternative to Hip Hop to folk and Blues, more with the denafrips Ares DAC. As far as I can tell The width of the staging is about the same but with noticeably more depth and height giving it all round more 3D atmosphere which pairing with an open headphone that has good resolution and separation makes for a very enjoyable and realistic listening environment. I don't feel like this is an overly colored source which suits me just fine preferring closer to neutral but with good body, separation in detail, and without sounding harsh or too dry is usually what I prefer for my sources. With any coloration coming from either the headphone depending on my mood or a specific amplifier. There is very good retrieval of detail and also what seems to be very good total balance throughout the frequencies as far as I can tell. I am truly looking forward to listening further and getting ample hours of enjoyment from going through my favorite collections of Flac files and CDs, and if any Audible differences are heard from further burn in of the dac  I will definitely post about it.
> 
> When I get some XLR cables I will pair Ares DAC with the balanced class a amplifier from the nfb 28 which is very powerful and a very good discrete amplifier. I am sorry if this was overly long I am at a 12 hour shift at work and it's been very slow giving me time to write this out here and there, and later on this week when I get you really test out the headphones I own I compare them from each other the difference is that I hear from the two dacs into the same amplifier if worth noting I will post about it



Glad you are enjoying the Ares. Would hope you might comment again after burn in. I occasionally direct connect my Ares to my Bakoon Headphone Amp and also use ZMF Omni closed headphones.
A superb matching. I love the Omni cans and of course the Ares.


----------



## 37mil

DronEvil said:


> Very interested in hearing about Pontus if/when someone has heard it.
> 
> A comparison of Pontus vs Holo Spring would be divine as those are the two DACs i'm trying to decide between.
> 
> Has anyone dealt with Denafrips support at all yet? I'm curious what their warranty/support is like, and if anyone has inquired if they have a way to safely/easily replace parts on devices when they fail considering how tightly packet they are on the board.



me, too. Spring or Pontus, that's the question.


----------



## WhiskeyJacks

soundfanz said:


> Glad you are enjoying the Ares. Would hope you might comment again after burn in. I occasionally direct connect my Ares to my Bakoon Headphone Amp and also use ZMF Omni closed headphones.
> A superb matching. I love the Omni cans and of course the Ares.



Yes, once  I hit over 100 hours on this sucker I will be probably going into any differences I hear and potentially and actual review for this product on head-fi. The ZMF Omni's are fantastic headphone for semi/open headphones they have slam and body in low end of many fully closed headphones with a separation and 3d staging of many fully open headphones. The alo pan am goes surprisingly well with the omni's, hd 6xx, Audiofly AF1120 iems, and the m1060's. How is the Bakoon hpa paired with the Ares and omni?


----------



## WhiskeyJacks

So, I am listening to this compilation album, Classic Meets Pop, and it is fantastically good. I mean some of the song choices in instrumental are phenomenal  especially the emotion they are able to capture and produce with instruments alone. The Ares does and wonderful job with the separation of all the different instruments and notes being played simultaneously and the revision 2 of the Monolith M1060 planar headphone doest a wonderful job paired with this DAC


----------



## soundfanz

WhiskeyJacks said:


> How is the Bakoon hpa paired with the Ares and omni?



The Bakoon HPA 5210 MK III is connected via RCA interconnects.
My Macbook running Audivarna via USB
CD player via Optical cable.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome (May 12, 2017)

*For those looking at Spring vs PONTUS, *this happened last weekend*. 
*
I'm an old owner of a KTE Tuned Spring Level 3 with approx 500-1000hrs in (no longer own, going off memory). During our meet at Bottlehead last weekend we were able to A/B the PONTUS vs Spring. I've had the PONTUS for about a week prior to this meet and was able to put ~200hrs on it with music. The Spring Level has maybe 200-300hrs as well. _Don't mind the comment of PNWRain on that thread saying the PONTUS sounds odd, I don't think he knows what he's talking yet as he's currently using on-board pc sound going to an amp for his headphone and might be playing towards the owner of KTE who was at the meet (understandable, Tim is a good guy and he makes great gear). 
_
The picture, from left to right on the bottom only: (click to zoom)
Denafrips PONTUS, Cayin iHA6, Schiit Freya tube/ss preamp (to A/B Spring vs PONUTS), KTE Level 1 Tuned Spring DAC
_
 _


Initial Impressions are: The Denafrips Pontus has a more even tuning/tonality than the Spring DAC Lvl 1 purchased directly from Kitsune Hifi. The Spring DAC does have a slight sub-bass/bass boost and somewhat sweet sound midrange and the Pontus has a more even keel (dare I say neutral/flat) presentation of the sound. The Spring has a very very slight level of clarity but this may be due to the mids tuning.

3 of 4 listeners preferred the Spring DAC over the PONTUS however 1 listener who preferred the PONTUS said that the PONTUS sound representation was more true sounding as it did not play with the sound by adding quantity to any frequency.

Soundstage and depth are pretty even between both dacs, the Spring dac has a slight advantage in instrument separation. This could be because of the slight elevated bass and mids which also gives the Spring the slight advantage in perceived clarity. This is not to say that anything is missing in the PONTUS sound, it is just a more flat response.

*More to come soon on my write-up, do not just read this and go off making an opinion as all will be covered thoroughly.*


----------



## bearwarrior

Are you comparing Pontus with lvl 1 Holo Spring?


----------



## Soundsgoodtome (May 12, 2017)

_*This will be my answer post, even if you post after this I will quote you and answer here:*_



bearwarrior said:


> Are you comparing Pontus with lvl 1 Holo Spring?


Yes I am comparing the PONTUS with the Spring Level 1 (Kitsune Tuned Edition). Both are currently around $1600usd to your door. However I am able to compare the lvl3 by memory as well (which I've owned for 4-5 months).

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------------*
*Edit 1:*
How do you know this? I know the owner personally and Tim from KTE himself (owner) was at the meet who sold it to him. I don't know how much more official it can get. Unless you're saying that the Level 1 doesn't have mods from KTE and it's stock being a LVL 1 then that may make more sense.


joseph69 said:


> As far as I know the Level 1 Holo Spring DAC is not a KTE.



Thanks, stay tuned for more. I more thorough comparison coming soon.


ririeiman said:


> Nice review




*------------------------------------------------------
Edit 2:*

Gotcha, well it's a Level 1 Spring DAC purchased from Kitsune directly. Even if it's not modded it wasn't one that came out of a Chinese distributor.


joseph69 said:


> "Unless you're saying that the Level 1 doesn't have mods from KTE and it's stock being a LVL 1 then that may make more sense."
> 
> This is exactly what I'm saying, so it's not a KTE, it a Level 1.
> I was only pointing this out so there is no confusion on the Spring DAC you're comparing.


----------



## joseph69

Soundsgoodtome said:


> _*This will be my answer post, even if you post after this I will quote you and answer here:*_
> 
> 
> Yes I am comparing the PONTUS with the Spring Level 1 (Kitsune Tuned Edition).


As far as I know the Level 1 Holo Spring DAC is not a KTE.


----------



## ririeiman

Soundsgoodtome said:


> *For those looking at Spring vs PONTUS, *this happened last weekend*.
> *
> I'm an old owner of a KTE Tuned Spring Level 3 with approx 500-1000hrs in (no longer own, going off memory). During our meet at Bottlehead last weekend we were able to A/B the PONTUS vs Spring. I've had the PONTUS for about a week prior to this meet and was able to put ~200hrs on it with music. The Spring Level has maybe 200-300hrs as well. _Don't mind the comment of PNWRain on that thread saying the PONTUS sounds odd, I don't think he knows what he's talking yet as he's currently using on-board pc sound going to an amp for his headphone and might be playing towards the owner of KTE who was at the meet (understandable, Tim is a good guy and he makes great gear).
> _
> ...



Nice review


----------



## joseph69

Soundsgoodtome said:


> *Edit 1:*
> How do you know this? I know the owner personally and Tim from KTE himself (owner) was at the meet who sold it to him. I don't know how much more official it can get. Unless you're saying that the Level 1 doesn't have mods from KTE and it's stock being a LVL 1 then that may make more sense.



"Unless you're saying that the Level 1 doesn't have mods from KTE and it's stock being a LVL 1 then that may make more sense."

This is exactly what I'm saying, so it's not a KTE, it a Level 1.
I was only pointing this out so there is no confusion on the Spring DAC you're comparing.


----------



## joseph69

Soundsgoodtome said:


> *------------------------------------------------------
> Edit 2:*
> 
> Gotcha, well it's a Level 1 Spring DAC purchased from Kitsune directly. Even if it's not modded it wasn't one that came out of a Chinese distributor.


Looking forward to reading more of your comparisons!


----------



## Mr Pluto

Soundsgoodtome,

Thanks for the nice review! 

As I understand the comparsion was only via headphones, using computer as a source (no dedicated disc spinner via S/PDIF)?
Where the levels matched? What are the output voltages of Spring? I can`t find any spec online.


----------



## gug42 (May 22, 2017)

Hello Evryone,

Could you confirm that Ares is an upgrade from schiit modi multibit ?
How are the trebble ?   I'm looking for extendanted and impactfull bass, lush mids, and mostly really soft/mellow  high-mids and treeble. 

And how it compite against Teac UD-501, Aune S6 or gustard x12 ?

Thx


----------



## 37mil

gug42 said:


> Hello Evryone,
> 
> And how it compite against Teac UD-301, UD-501 or Aune S6 (or S16) ?
> 
> Thx



i'd be interested to know as well. Do these ladder dacs actually sound distinctly different to chip dacs like those mentioned above? Does anyone even know what type of analog ouptut stage is used as this would have a big effect on sound as well.


----------



## PitBul34

Denafrips Ares in chinese restaurant 










More photos


----------



## rigo

What are the dimensions of the Pontus including the height?


----------



## Mr Pluto

37mil said:


> i'd be interested to know as well. Do these ladder dacs actually sound distinctly different to chip dacs like those mentioned above? Does anyone even know what type of analog ouptut stage is used as this would have a big effect on sound as well.



You are absolutely right, analog output stage makes a huge part of a dac´s sound. But sadly it seems a secret in Denafrips. Maybe Alvin1118 can shed some light on this?
I can`t comment on Shiit, Teac or Aune, but I highly doubt that Ares or Ponutus will be inferior. If you take the time to read the thread, there were some comments or comparisons with some Shiit dac, if I remember correctly. You can also find the Ares R2R sonic description in my + many other reviews here. I`m not much a USB/PC music fan, but feeding Ares with a decent spinner via coax or opt you can`t go wrong, especially considering it`s price.
At least no buyer has been disappointed so far, in fact contrary.


----------



## Mr Pluto

PitBul34 said:


> Denafrips Ares in chinese restaurant
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Instead of drinking in Chinese restaurants, could write a few lines about how your new Terminator sounds?
Based on spec I believe that another real step up from Ares may come with Venus or Terminator.....


----------



## Soundsgoodtome (May 12, 2017)

You could use a ddc with good clocks and power like the singxer f1u on a Schiit wyrd and the PONTUS and probably have similar results to the Venus.

One has to ask yourself at which point does resistor .02 or .01% tolerance become audible in difference. The Terminator has that 0.005% right?


----------



## TheNidz

I have had the opportunity to compare the Ares to my reference Ayon CD-5 CD Player/DAC, amongst others.
Take what I say with a grain of salt though; I don't speak 'audiophile'.
Ares sound is very balanced, no frequencies seem unduly emphasised.
I found it liquid, smooth and easy to listen to for long periods.
Ares has more detail but not quite as smooth as the Ayon, but that unit has 4xPCM1704K R2R DACs with 6H30 valve output stage, and was MUCH more expensive. I still prefer the Ayon overall, but then I like some valves in all my equipment to take the edge off - I mean this in general; not saying the Ares is edgy. (My amp is a 6922/Mosfet hybrid.)
Ares is smoother again than vintage R2R PCM63-powered EAD DSP-7000 MkII. 
(I enjoy the MkII but would still love a MkIII one day. BTW - These old EAD DACs are excellent used bargains imho - lovely sound and super build.)
Ares is also imho better than modern AKM or TI/BB-powered delta-sigma budget DACs I've heard like NuPrime DAC-9 and Arcam irDAC. Would still really love to hear a top-end AK4495/AK4497 setup like Esoteric Grandioso though. Haven't heard a Sabre DAC I liked yet.
To sum up I feel the Ares is a bargain. Similar in some ways to older R2R DAC chips (smooth, coherent, 'balanced') but also different, in a way that is hard to put your finger on. Discrete R2R designs are (fairly) new; I think more and more manufacturers are going this route. I have a suspicion the new Auralic Vega 2 might be one of them. Munich will reveal all.


----------



## chauphuong

http://m.ebay.com.my/itm/232003520009
Is it the stuff you mentioned? Thanks


----------



## TheNidz

chauphuong said:


> http://m.ebay.com.my/itm/232003520009
> Is it the stuff you mentioned? Thanks



Yes, that's the one.


----------



## alvin1118

rigo said:


> What are the dimensions of the Pontus including the height?



Dimension: 320 *330 *80  mm


----------



## Mr Pluto

TheNidz said:


> I have had the opportunity to compare the Ares to my reference Ayon CD-5 CD Player/DAC, amongst others.
> Take what I say with a grain of salt though; I don't speak 'audiophile'.
> Ares sound is very balanced, no frequencies seem unduly emphasised.
> I found it liquid, smooth and easy to listen to for long periods.
> ...



Super well said! 

I agree with everything, despite (in my system) I`d call the tonality more velvety than "liquid".


----------



## Mr Pluto

alvin1118 said:


> Dimension: 320 *330 *80  mm



Alvin,

Can you please ask the designers of Ares is it good if I hold it completely "on" all the time? 
Or maybe it is better to put it on "standby" for some time, when I know that I don`t listen?


----------



## rudra

Anyone having driver issues on Windows 10 Version 1703. The driver does not seem to initialize where as the same driver works fine on Windows10 Ver 1607


----------



## Mr Pluto

rudra said:


> Anyone having driver issues on Windows 10 Version 1703. The driver does not seem to initialize where as the same driver works fine on Windows10 Ver 1607


What player do you use? I have no issues with Win7
So I can only say ......


----------



## krell1967

Today was the day to update Amanero firmware on my Terminator.....
WARNING!!!
Do not do it unless you are able to do so.


----------



## yates7592

krell1967 - is it difficult? That's for the USB input correct?

My Terminator just landed in UK customs for hopeful delivery Wednesday at latest!


----------



## krell1967

yates7592 said:


> krell1967 - is it difficult? That's for the USB input correct?
> 
> My Terminator just landed in UK customs for hopeful delivery Wednesday at latest!


Just a little, you must short the Pin 43 and 3.3VCC on dsp card, so Amanero firmware will be erased.
Then you update the new firmware from Amanero website through a tool called oemtool117. 
Version firmware is 1099c. In this way your dac well be capable to play DSD256 on Linux systems


----------



## rudra

Mr Pluto said:


> What player do you use? I have no issues with Win7
> So I can only say ......


It does not matter which player I use(Foobar, Roon, HQP). After I upgraded my Win10 to 1703 the drivers don't work. I tried uninstalling, reboot and do a clean install. Found that the driver does not install correctly in Ver 1703. Tried the same drivers in Win10 ver 1607 on my laptop everything works fine. I have also sent an email to Alvin and the manufacturer.


----------



## 37mil

yates7592 said:


> My Terminator just landed in UK customs for hopeful delivery Wednesday at latest!



let us know how that goes and whether the UK customs get their grubby hands on import tax.


----------



## AmusedToD

37mil said:


> let us know how that goes and whether the UK customs get their grubby hands on import tax.



I am sure Alvin could help you with that, drop him an email


----------



## AmusedToD (May 15, 2017)

Ok guys, the Ares was delivered to me today. First of all, I wish to thank Alvin of Vinshine Audio for his outstanding customer service! A great man and a great company to deal with!

I had some 2 hours today to do a quick A/B comparison between the Ares and the Chord Mojo. That was until the Mojo was handed over to the new owner. Disclaimer: the Ares was tested cold, I couldn't give it a proper initial burning in because I had to leave home and meet the buyer of my Mojo. According to reports on this forum, Ares needs some 150-300h to be fully burned in, so this short review is just for the purpose of expressing my initial impressions.

The setup: iMac (Roon core) - SOTM sMS-200 streamer (Roon endpoint) powered by 12v Sbooster BOTW P&P Eco linear PSU - Chord C-USB cable - DAC (Ares and Mojo) - Tellurium Q Ultra Black RCA interconnect - Naim Supernait powered by Naim HiCap DR - Tellurium Q Ultra Black speaker cables - Dynaudio Focus 260 speakers.

My SMS-200 streamer recognized the Ares immediately, no problems whatsoever with drivers. From the first second of turning on the Ares it is evident that bass is superior on the Ares when compared to Mojo. It is very deep and very well controlled, thumbs up to Denafrips for this. The soundstage is slightly deeper on the Ares, however Mojo exhibits a taller and perhaps a tiny bit wider soundstage. With the Ares the vocals appear to be lower in space and very upfront, sort of "in your face", quite different to what the Mojo does with vocals. On the other hand, the occasional harshness I could here with the Mojo is now all gone. The Ares also appears to have a blacker background than the Mojo, and individual instruments are easier to pinpoint in space. The layering is very very good. The magic of the Ares evidently lies in the midrange, it is very rich, fluid and seductive if I may say. Due to being cold and not burned in, the Ares exhibited a level of "graininess", but I expect this to disappear fully in a few days.

So these are my initial impressions, and could be very much irrelevant since the Ares was cold, and being a R2R DAC, it needs a week or two to really start singing. But judging from the first 2 hours, it a damn fine device for the money, and I am a very happy owner.


----------



## yates7592 (May 16, 2017)

delete


----------



## krell1967

DENAFRIPS Trilogy.....


----------



## AmusedToD

WOW! How much better are the higher lines compared to the Ares?


----------



## rigo

Ares, Pontus, Terminator?


----------



## yates7592

My black Terminator arrived safely two days ago. Thanks to Alvin at Vinshine Audio for the smooth passage and excellent service. It's too early for me to make detailed impressions here but suffice to say after only 20 hours burn in this is one truly amazing DAC. All I will say for now at this early stage is I'm very impressed at the musicality and analog-like presentation of Terminator, (I'm coming from Lampi Big7 > MSB Analog > Phasure NOS1a) - more to come!


----------



## m-i-c-k-e-y

Such a bold statement from where you're coming (DACs) from..


----------



## rudra

update on the issue of drivers not installing on Win10 version 1703. disable driver signature verification , install driver and profit.


----------



## flojdzik

@krell1967 and @yates759. Comparison review please !


----------



## omniweltall

rudra said:


> update on the issue of drivers not installing on Win10 version 1703. disable driver signature verification , install driver and profit.


Thank you!


----------



## Mr Pluto

krell1967 said:


> DENAFRIPS Trilogy.....


Thanks Krell1967 
Hope to hear a bit of the sonic descriptions also............. 

Here`s my Terminator trilogy:


----------



## Auditor (May 19, 2017)

Hello guys,

please have a look at my review of Denafrips Pontus:


https://www.head-fi.org/f/showcase/denafrips-pontus-r2r-discrete-ladder-dac.22389/reviews


----------



## Kesac

Hi, Iam in your club also)
Ordered monday 15 of May and already got 19 delivered (by DHL 50 USD cost)
No taxies, cos invoice was on 99 USD - smart
Ares is fantastic DAC (Had old Burson )


----------



## PitBul34

Kesac said:


> Hi, Iam in your club also)


Hi, welcome!


----------



## gug42 (May 22, 2017)

gug42 said:


> Hello Evryone,
> 
> Could you confirm that Ares is an upgrade from schiit modi multibit ?
> How are the trebble ?   I'm looking for extendanted and impactfull bass, lush mids, and mostly really soft/mellow  high-mids and treeble.
> ...



Anye one ? Please  mostly against the gustard x12


----------



## PitBul34

> And how it compite against Teac UD-501, Aune S6 or gustard x12 ?

UD-503, S16 & X12 are delta-sigma based DACs, they all sounds different. Denafrips is from another sound galaxy.


----------



## PitBul34

Some Venus photos:
https://www.vinshineaudio.com/product-page/denafrips-venus-r2r-dac


----------



## PitBul34

Auditor said:


> Hello guys,
> 
> please have a look at my review of Denafrips Pontus:
> 
> ...


Nice review! I've prepared a russian translation here


----------



## gug42

PitBul34 said:


> > And how it compite against Teac UD-501, Aune S6 or gustard x12 ?
> 
> UD-503, S16 & X12 are delta-sigma based DACs, they all sounds different. Denafrips is from another sound galaxy.



You mean better or just different  ?  
Thx


----------



## Auditor

PitBul34 said:


> Nice review! I've prepared a russian translation here



Hello! thanks, much appreciated.

However, in the following thread which I tried to read using Google Translate from russian, most posts are focalising on the (supposed) low quality of the Touch as a source.

Please note that:
- Touch is not standard but with EDO firmware enabling 192/24 PCM and DSD output plus many other optimizations.
- Touch is fed by fiber optic ethernet connection assuring total isolation from network disturbances
- Only low noise linear power supplies are used in my system including Touch and fiber optic converter.

.... and I also listen to Pontus connected to my CEC TL51x belt drive CD transport. No significant differences with respect to Touch, indicating that modern USB asyncronous interfaces are not so fussy about sources as in the past. In the Pontus case, we are speaking of the latest Amanero USB card.

With Ares, I also tried it with a Gustard U12 interface between it and the Touch. No differences, and the U12 went sold.

Ah, I have been in this hobby for 30 years and more, and have acquired a pretty large experience in detecting real differences. You surely know that those declaring to be able to hear the sound of any component including ethernet cables or power supplies of a server placed in the other end of the building are NOT superhumans but simply victims of autosuggestion.


----------



## PitBul34 (May 24, 2017)

gug42 said:


> You mean better or just different ?


I can not say: "R2R ladder technology sounds better than Delta-Sigma technology". So, I mean, different technology sounds different. Ofcourse, some units sounds better than others, but it depends on model (on proprietary technology in each case).


----------



## PitBul34

Auditor said:


> Hello! thanks, much appreciated.
> 
> However, in the following thread which I tried to read using Google Translate from russian, most posts are focalising on the (supposed) low quality of the Touch as a source.


Thanks for your answer, nevermind, i'll translate it to russian audiophile society.


----------



## gug42

PitBul34 said:


> I can not say: "R2R ladder technology sounds better than Delta-Sigma technology". So, I mean, different technology sounds different. Ofcourse, some units sounds better than others, but it depends on model (on proprietary technology in each case).



Hello,

Of course a good implementaton is always important.
But between a gustard X12 and this ares, can I assume ares is head and shoulders ahead ? and well what's the differences ?  

The objective is to have balanced output connected to a little dot mkVI+ 

thx


----------



## nitewulf

Hi, anyone ordered/received any of the higher end DACs like the Pontus or Venus? I am interested in the Venus compated to say Holo Audio Spring Kitsune edition.


----------



## krell1967

nitewulf said:


> Hi, anyone ordered/received any of the higher end DACs like the Pontus or Venus? I am interested in the Venus compated to say Holo Audio Spring Kitsune edition.


I compared Holo Spring level 1 with Ares some times ago, very similar in many features. Consider that Pontus goes much better than Ares, you have the consequences. 
Now I have his majesty Terminator.


----------



## Mojo777

Any plans to a DAC with a preamp particularly analog inputs? I route my turntable through my current DAC Pre (Oppo HA-1) so I can listen through headphones


----------



## krell1967

DENAFRIPS Terminator review
https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/denafrips-terminator-the-king-of-r2r-dac.851085/


----------



## PitBul34

gug42 said:


> Hello,
> Of course a good implementaton is always important.
> But between a gustard X12 and this ares, can I assume ares is head and shoulders ahead ? and well what's the differences ?


Ares is much better, imo. First of all, you'll feel a great dynamic. DD is very high! Denafrips sounds more natural and dynamic, very close to vinyl.


----------



## willsw

I have had the Ares and had others listen to it with different systems. Via USB, with almost every media player: Jriver, Foobar, Audirvana, VLC, and others, there are immediate gaps and distortion in the playback, seemingly no matter which settings I change. However, when I use USB Audio Player Pro on my phone or iTunes, there is no distortion or any problem via USB. Does anyone have any experience fixing this?


----------



## vexus

Hi willsw,

could you have a groundloop somewhere? Is your pc also connected to a tv? It sounds a bit like sync problems or to high input gain in the digital domain.


----------



## willsw

vexus said:


> Hi willsw,
> 
> could you have a groundloop somewhere? Is your pc also connected to a tv? It sounds a bit like sync problems or to high input gain in the digital domain.



Given the amount of different systems, OS, and sources I've tried with the same result, Arthur of Vinshine is offering a warranty replacement. Hopefully they find the problem in that unit and prevent it from appearing again. I think we've tried everything reasonable to have this specific USB input work with a computer source and preferred players of different users. The optical input also has occasional distortion, appearing much less frequently but still consistently present. 

In the mean time I did lend it to a friend with a Holo Spring Level 3, who has been extremely impressed. He also listens mostly to electronic and rap and wasn't as interested in instrumental layering as a feature, which relates to what I write below. We held another listening session Saturday in which the Ares was compared to a Bifrost multibit, its most direct competitor in price, and an MHDT Labs Stockholm V2, which is a bit more expensive at around $1000 and could be of interest to those to whom R-2R and Non-oversampling are appealing. 

Initially using the USB and optical outputs directly from a Macbook, the Ares and the Bimby traded advantages, with the end preference being hard to say given the mixed qualities each excelled at. However, once we put a Singxer SU-1 into the line as an equalizer and used coaxial output into both DACs, it took all of five seconds to prefer the Ares in every respect, which was an impression I was no alone in. So: optical input not recommended, and if you want to spend $600 on a DAC you are more likely to be happy with the Ares. The primary thing was that the Bimby sounded more artificial overall and exaggerated in areas such as bass, whereas the Ares sounded controlled, natural, and accurate. 

The one area that still leaves me unsatisfied with the Ares is layering and the creation of a realistic sense of space for performers, which is mainly applicable in the type of music I often listen to on my home system: jazz of many types, voice without distortion; things with instruments being recorded in relationship to other instruments. In more studio-based recordings, like rap and electronic, which I also listen to, the Ares is a very strong performer which gives bass impact and does not make certain effects sound like distortions, as the Bimby seemed to. It seems to be a classic either/or in DACs below a certain level (and in turn, price range). The MHDT Stockholm V2 was my preference for anything with instrumental layering, but was edged out by the Ares when I put on things with strong electronic bass lines and more processing. In the end, I would choose the Stockholm V2 because getting that sense of real space is very important to the enjoyment of my listening at home, on speakers, where I'm likely to sit and only pay attention to the music that's on, and most of the electronic, etc. music I listen to in while mobile and with headphones, where volume in an apartment isn't a consideration.

I suppose the next things to do would be an Ares vs. a Gumby and bring the Pontus into the mix vs. the $2000+ crowd.


----------



## nitewulf

What are the differences between the Venus and Terminator? From the specs it looks like only the power supply?


----------



## abartels

@krell1967 

Very nice review Claudio! If I weren't an Audio DIY enthausiastic, I probably would buy one myself!!!

I'm not sure, I could be wrong, but am i right if saying most of those caps used are Nichicon Muse types? I can also see some Nichicon FG (Fine Gold) ones.
I used Nichicon Muse caps several times, always in powerstages from dac's, and came to the conclusion that they finally result in a dull sound character.
After a normal amount of burn-in hours (about 150) they still sounded good, but after several weeks of continously playing they worsened, and finally the result
was a less sparkling sound character, kind of dull with loss in the top-end and detail. I really hope I'm wrong..... I really hope they used FP series or Elna Silmic II.

Btw, Nichicon doesn't provide ESR values at all for Fine Gold and Muse series, which in my opinion looks a little weird because it prohibits a designer to calculate...

Thanks again for the very intriguing review!!!

Cheers,
Alex


----------



## gug42

PitBul34 said:


> Ares is much better, imo. First of all, you'll feel a great dynamic. DD is very high! Denafrips sounds more natural and dynamic, very close to vinyl.



Thank you for opinion   what mean DD ? 

By the way could we considere denaris as a balanced dac  ?



willsw said:


> Given the amount of different systems, OS, and sources I've tried with the same result, Arthur of Vinshine is offering a warranty replacement. Hopefully they find the problem in that unit and prevent it from appearing again. I think we've tried everything reasonable to have this specific USB input work with a computer source and preferred players of different users. The optical input also has occasional distortion, appearing much less frequently but still consistently present.
> 
> In the mean time I did lend it to a friend with a Holo Spring Level 3, who has been extremely impressed. He also listens mostly to electronic and rap and wasn't as interested in instrumental layering as a feature, which relates to what I write below. We held another listening session Saturday in which the Ares was compared to a Bifrost multibit, its most direct competitor in price, and an MHDT Labs Stockholm V2, which is a bit more expensive at around $1000 and could be of interest to those to whom R-2R and Non-oversampling are appealing.
> 
> ...



Thank you for the review. Well looking too for a Gumby match up


----------



## DronEvil (May 30, 2017)

abartels said:


> @krell1967
> 
> Very nice review Claudio! If I weren't an Audio DIY enthausiastic, I probably would buy one myself!!!
> 
> ...




I'm interested in hearing more about this from either Denafrips themselves or someone who owns a Pontus/Venus/Terminator that can confirm the type of caps used in it.

I'm also curious if there's any knowledge about the clock implementation on Pontus/Venus/Terminator. Pontus manual has no mention of the clock in it. Venus appears to only have Femto implemented on Amerno USB? Does Terminator have 2 Femtos (one for DAC section and one for USB receiver section)?   I'm currently on the fence between Pontus/Venus vs Yggy vs Holo Spring L3 KTE. I'm really leaning towards Pontus at this point, because I have a Singxer SU-1, and would use i2s rather than USB (so the femto on USB is irrelevant to me.....unless the femto is on the dac segment itself, in which case I would be interested in reading more about it).  I know clock setups in DACs are complicated, and there is alot of variables at play than can effect an implementation, regardless of the type/accuracy of oscillator being used, so it's not going to be THE deciding factor for me, but having information about it WOULD contribute to the decision making process.

As much as the reviews of the Denafrips gear are inspiring, the lack of detailed technical information about them (when compared to the Yggy/Holo knowledgebase) isn't inspiring much buying confidence in me, as I'm not the type of person to make a purchase on user-review of subjective sound quality alone (i like to investigate the technical implementation/design of the device to factor into my decision making as well).


----------



## soundfanz

DronEvil said:


> I'm interested in hearing more about this from either Denafrips themselves or someone who owns a Pontus/Venus/Terminator that can confirm the type of caps used in it.
> 
> As much as the reviews of the Denafrips gear are inspiring, the lack of detailed technical information about them (when compared to the Yggy/Holo knowledgebase) isn't inspiring much buying confidence in me, as I'm not the type of person to make a purchase on user-review of subjective sound quality alone (i like to investigate the technical implementation/design of the device to factor into my decision making as well).



Fair enough, but I'm different. Purchased the Ares solely because of reports on it's sound quality and price.
Didn't even know at time of purchase that it came with 3 year warranty. And FWIW, I also thought there was enough technical information available about the item.


----------



## alvin1118

@*abartels*

The capacitors in Terminator are Elna Starget and Elna Silmic II. The 8pieces of Nichicon Gold Tune are for mute function, has little impact to sonic performance. 

Thanks,
Alvin


----------



## Clarinetmonster2 (Jun 1, 2017)

This question goes to willsw who so nicely compared the Ares to the Chord 2qute and separately compared it to the Wavelength Brick V2. How does the 2qute compare to the Wavelength Brick V2? I now own the 2qute but am not sure whether I'm staying with it.


----------



## abartels

Hi Alvin,

That is great news!!!!!
Thanks for providing us with this information!

Btw, the Nichicon FG (FineGold) DO sound good, so no sweat there  And, of course if using them in Mute-circuit they don't influence SQ at all.

Thanks for the info!!!

Cheers,
Alex


----------



## PitBul34

gug42 said:


> Thank you for opinion   what mean DD ?



DR, sorry. It means Dynamic Range


----------



## humzebra

"I suppose the next things to do would be an Ares vs. a Gumby and bring the Pontus into the mix vs. the $2000+ crowd." -willsw
Interested in Pontus vs Holospring I (saw soundsgoodtome initial impressions), and if anybody has one Stockholm v2 balanced..
>Anthem 225>Mod HE6


----------



## AmusedToD

Wow, I can't believe the interest for my Ares! I received like a dozen enquires in just a few hours. Anyways, just wanted to let you know my Ares is reserved for @zigi. The reservation will be valid for 24 hours, that is until I receive the payment. Otherwise, it will be up for sale again. Thank you all for your messages.


----------



## AmusedToD

Denafrips Ares sold to @zigi!


----------



## Aradea

Hi all,

Seeing that the Ares is similarly priced to the Bimby, anyone here have done a comparison between the two?


----------



## sheldaze

Aradea said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Seeing that the Ares is similarly priced to the Bimby, anyone here have done a comparison between the two?



See post #979, one page back.


----------



## Aradea

sheldaze said:


> See post #979, one page back.


Ah thanks.. my bad for missing that


----------



## ilcg1

My Denafrips Ares has arrived and so far I like it more than my Mimby, especially when fed through Singxer SU-1.


----------



## willsw

My distorting Ares is back with Vinshine and they have confirmed that it was the DAC, not my software. I have also received a replacement Ares, which has a couple of superficial updates - the LEDs are brighter (a good thing) and the feet are different (I liked both sets of feet, but I do prefer the newer, conical ones). It makes me wonder if there were any internal updates from that evidently early model I had before, as it is also sounding even better. More likely is that the other unit I had was just slightly worse than the average Ares given its distortion problems. 

To be honest, I was fully planning on selling the first Ares as soon as I found a reasonably priced used DAC that I thought I'd prefer. Now, I'm not so sure. Things are sounding very good with my current system.


----------



## ilcg1

Really like my Ares and I'm wondering how much better is Pontus. The difference between Ares and Mimby is not day and night, however it's there.


----------



## gug42 (Jun 28, 2017)

OH well good to know and well impressive result that you prefers Ares over the mimby !  The price is totally different !

How does it perform against AUDIO-GD NFB-1.38 ?


----------



## Guych

ilcg1 said:


> Really like my Ares and I'm wondering how much better is Pontus. The difference between Ares and Mimby is not day and night, however it's there.




I posted yesterday about the sound difference between the Ares and the Pontus.  I know the Ares is a great dac, but  the Pontus is so much more. I May shoot for the Terminator and be all set for at least 10yrs +
Guy


----------



## rudra

I have asked this question to @alvin1118  but I haven't heard anything from him yet.  Can someone let me know if the ARES needs usb bus power to operate. The reason I ask is that I have recently upgrade my computer and purchased a Gigabyte x370 gaming K3 motherboard (https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/GA-AX370-Gaming-K3-rev-10#kf) with the ability to turn of usb power on USB2.0 port. When I turn off the usb bus power, the ARES is detected by the computer but  it does not decode. Tested using Foobar on Win 10 Pro. I was under the impression that the ARES did not use USB bus power. I am confused.


----------



## Gordian

Hi Rudra, 
How the Ares react to the different upsampling freq and PCM vs DSD ?

Thanks


----------



## rudra (Jul 2, 2017)

I tried both the formats and different bit depth and frequency. When the USB bus power is turned off  the DAC does not do anything as confirmed by the lights on the front which don't change when the different formats are played.

*Update: *DENAFRIPS DAC uses USB bus power to control the supply of the internal linear power supply to the xmos USB driver. If the USB bus power is turnoff, the internal power supply will be cut off hence no sound will be played.


----------



## whill

Hi! 

Does anyone here compared Terminator with Yggy?

Thank you.


----------



## ahmadfaizadnan

ilcg1 said:


> Really like my Ares and I'm wondering how much better is Pontus. The difference between Ares and Mimby is not day and night, however it's there.



What kind of difference that you notice between them?


----------



## franz159

syn959 said:


> Looking forward to your comparison of Ares vs Mojo since I have Mojo and can use that as a reference. Thanks!



Same here, I have Mojo too. Sorry I discovered the thread yesterday and I am halfway through it...


----------



## sheldaze

syn959 said:


> Looking forward to your comparison of Ares vs Mojo since I have Mojo and can use that as a reference. Thanks!





franz159 said:


> Same here, I have Mojo too. Sorry I discovered the thread yesterday and I am halfway through it...



There does not appear to be much activity from @vexus who only seems to have been active for four posts between March and May this year.
You might want to ask @TimeLord who has had extended home listening time with the Ares, and owns the Mojo.


----------



## ilcg1

ahmadfaizadnan said:


> What kind of difference that you notice between them?



To me Ares definitely goes deeper in bass. Also, the overall timber has less digital glare (not hat Mimby had a lot of it, but Ares sounds more analog like). Overall the differences are subtle, but noticeable after longer listening sessions.
 I haven't received my xlr interconnects yet, so these impressions are based on single ended connection (not sure if balanced will make any difference).


----------



## Aradea

ilcg1 said:


> Really like my Ares and I'm wondering how much better is Pontus. The difference between Ares and Mimby is not day and night, however it's there.



Hmm.. can you tell me more on the differences between the Mimby and the Ares?
I am seriously considering replacing my Mojo with the Ares. But it is quite disheartening to read that Mimby to Ares is not quite a significant upgrade.. especially considering the price diff


----------



## AmusedToD

I had both the Mojo and the Ares. IMHO, no contest there, the Ares is the better DAC. Mojo is great for headphones as a dedicated amp/DAC, but in a proper stereo setup - the Ares wins hands down. The bass is deeper and better controlled (this is where the major difference is), the soundstage slightly deeper and there is far less digital hardness, it's just more relaxing to listen to it for longer periods. Never tried it with headphones though. Perhaps the soundstage is slightly taller on the Mojo (especially the high frequencies appear to be positioned lowered in space on the Ares), but that's about it. Both DACs produce about the same width of the soundstage. However, the overall sound coming out of the Ares is fuller, meatier, but at the same time more relaxing. The Mojo is thinner and lighter on its feet, and more "digital" sounding.

Keep in mind the Ares is like a chameleon, it completely transforms after a week or so of constant use, it really does need proper burn in and the improvement is very audiable.


----------



## ilcg1

Aradea said:


> Hmm.. can you tell me more on the differences between the Mimby and the Ares?
> I am seriously considering replacing my Mojo with the Ares. But it is quite disheartening to read that Mimby to Ares is not quite a significant upgrade.. especially considering the price diff



In this hobby price difference doesn't say much as you know. Speaking of Chord, I had both mojo and Hugo and preferred mojo regardless the price. I never tried them on speakers though as I primarily listen to headphones.

I had Bifrost Multibit (actually had it twice) and I couldn't hear the difference that will convince me it's better than Modi MB. If you want the best budget (value to money, "punches 5x it's price" etc.) dac on the planet - go with Mimby.

Now, Ares to me is definitely better than Mimby, but the differences, as they always are between two good dacs on headphones, noticeable, but not huge (again it depends on the ones definition of huge - to me after I've got my first external dac/amp the differences were there, but overall not huge).

After long listening sessions to me timber on Ares is better than on Mimby and overall Ares was more enjoyable to listen.

Sorry, I'm not the best to describe all the nuances and didn't do critical listening for the sake of writing the review. Hope this helps.


----------



## Aradea

@AmusedToD  and @ilcg1  Many thanks for both of your feedbacks!
I am thinking of revamping both my semi desktop and portable setup. Considering to get a better DAC for my semi-desktop to feed my HD800 since I am currently using the mojo as a DAC only for it. As for portable I use, I guess I can just use a good sounding mobile phone and plug my iem into it (no stacking again)


----------



## vexus

Sorry, I saw the post too late.

As previously said, the bass on the Ares is much better controlled than on the Mojo. The mids are very similar and the heights are crispier on the mojo but with some glare. I preferred the Ares much more and have sold the mojo since.


----------



## TPSRA

Hi @PitBul34
Did you do a direct comparison between Ares and LKS DA004?
I have the Ares (before this thread exist) and now I'm really interested in DA004.


----------



## JoeDoe

Hey there ares owners, I'm currently auditioning an ares, coming from an Auralic vega and I'm curious to know if any of you blokes has experience with both also. Trying to decide whether the Vegas additional capabilities warrant the extra cash I have sunk into it as a 98% red book listener. Head amps are MAD Ear+ and Taurus MK2.


----------



## Aradea

JoeDoe said:


> Hey there ares owners, I'm currently auditioning an ares, coming from an Auralic vega and I'm curious to know if any of you blokes has experience with both also. Trying to decide whether the Vegas additional capabilities warrant the extra cash I have sunk into it as a 98% red book listener. Head amps are MAD Ear+ and Taurus MK2.


Wow I am curious to know your opinion later on when you're finished trying out the Ares.
If I'm not mistaken the Vega is over $2000 in price and I'd love read your comparison on both


----------



## ajreynol

Anywhere in South Florida I can listen to one of these? I'd really like to compare it to my new 2Qute, but waiting for it to arrive from over seas is beyond my time table.


----------



## macan

Sorry for long silence, forced to work long hours for contract job. I'm back now into the search of DAC. 
I saw these photos in the website, hey this Ares looks really good. Pardon me i did not read the whole of this thread, is Ares a good performer for the money ?


----------



## jcn3

macan said:


> Sorry for long silence, forced to work long hours for contract job. I'm back now into the search of DAC.
> I saw these photos in the website, hey this Ares looks really good. Pardon me i did not read the whole of this thread, is Ares a good performer for the money ?



there are 67 pages regarding the performance of this dac -- please take advantage of the investment that so many people have made to this thread.


----------



## IlluminatiTri (Jul 25, 2017)

Ok, so I've been reading through the thread and can't quite figure this one out. I keep seeing conflicting things (to my eyes they're conflicting, maybe I'm misunderstanding).

I recently got the Ares, and I installed the XMOS drivers from the Denafrips website. However, using JRiver 23, I can only set it to bitstream DSD over WASAPI in DoP format. I thought there was native DSD support over ASIO? I am unable to do anything but DoP, though. Is there some key thing you have to do after installing the XMOS driver? Is there a setting in JRiver that I'm missing? Or does it really only do DoP?

Any replies/help would be appreciated. Thank you!


----------



## rudra

No native support of DSD over ASIO. it is DoP only.


----------



## IlluminatiTri

rudra said:


> No native support of DSD over ASIO. it is DoP only.


Thanks. Good to know I'm not doing something wrong/I don't have a defective unit.


----------



## robm321

.


----------



## IlluminatiTri

Also, one more question I can't find (maybe I'm bad at Google). The Ares supports 24/384, but the XMOS audio driver only lets you output at 24/192. Why bother even saying it supports 384 then if you literally can't do 384?


----------



## ilcg1

IlluminatiTri said:


> Also, one more question I can't find (maybe I'm bad at Google). The Ares supports 24/384, but the XMOS audio driver only lets you output at 24/192. Why bother even saying it supports 384 then if you literally can't do 384?



It supports 384 through Audirvana + for sure - I've tested this many times. 
So yes, it does support 384 without any drivers on mac.


----------



## IlluminatiTri

ilcg1 said:


> It supports 384 through Audirvana + for sure - I've tested this many times.
> So yes, it does support 384 without any drivers on mac.


On Windows, it will only work for me with the XMOS driver, and with that installed, I can only select 24/192. I wonder why it will work on Mac.


----------



## soundfanz

IlluminatiTri said:


> On Windows, it will only work for me with the XMOS driver, and with that installed, I can only select 24/192. I wonder why it will work on Mac.



Because Audirvana only uses the Mac platform, hence ability to utilise 24/384. My Ares via MacBook and Audirvana + and Tidal is brilliant.


----------



## rudra (Jul 30, 2017)

IlluminatiTri said:


> Also, one more question I can't find (maybe I'm bad at Google). The Ares supports 24/384, but the XMOS audio driver only lets you output at 24/192. Why bother even saying it supports 384 then if you literally can't do 384?



Definitely  supports 384 on windoze. Tested with foobar, HQP& Roon


----------



## IlluminatiTri

rudra said:


> Definitely  supports 384 on windoze. Tested with foobar, HQP& Roon


What are you able to set output to in Windows playback devices? Also, are you using the XMOS Driver? Just trying to figure out what's wrong for me.


----------



## rudra (Jul 31, 2017)

IlluminatiTri said:


> What are you able to set output to in Windows playback devices? Also, are you using the XMOS Driver? Just trying to figure out what's wrong for me.



 If you are trying to use the windows playback devices then you may be limited to 192. I have tried both ASIO (Foobar, Roon and HQP) and WASAPI (foobar and Roon), 384 works without any issue.

Since you are  using JRiver you shouldn't have an issue as I believe JRiver supports asio and WASAPI.

Ares supports 358.2 & 384 on USB only. I think all the other inputs are capped at 192 KHz


----------



## IlluminatiTri

rudra said:


> If you are trying to use the windows playback devices then you may be limited to 192. I have tried both ASIO (Foobar, Roon and HQP) and WASAPI (foobar and Roon), 384 works without any issue.
> 
> Since you are  using JRiver you shouldn't have an issue as I believe JRiver supports asio and WASAPI.
> 
> Ares supports 358.2 & 384 on USB only. I think all the other inputs are capped at 192 KHz


I can't use ASIO on JRiver because DSD isn't supported over ASIO, and I do have some DSD stuff that I listen to. I normally have it set to WASAPI so I can play DSD.

What I'm talking about for 24/192 is this: 1) right click the little speaker in the bottom right of Windows 2) click Playback Devices 3) double-click XMOS Audio (or whatever the Ares is) 4) go to Advanced tab 5) click Default Format dropdown box 6) look at maximum bit depth/sample rate

For me, the max I see is 24/192. What do you see? Or does the Windows setting not actually affect what JRiver can output if JRiver is set to not downsample?


----------



## rudra

IlluminatiTri said:


> I can't use ASIO on JRiver because DSD isn't supported over ASIO, and I do have some DSD stuff that I listen to. I normally have it set to WASAPI so I can play DSD.
> 
> What I'm talking about for 24/192 is this: 1) right click the little speaker in the bottom right of Windows 2) click Playback Devices 3) double-click XMOS Audio (or whatever the Ares is) 4) go to Advanced tab 5) click Default Format dropdown box 6) look at maximum bit depth/sample rate
> 
> For me, the max I see is 24/192. What do you see? Or does the Windows setting not actually affect what JRiver can output if JRiver is set to not downsample?



Ares supports DSD through the USB as DoP only with ASIO. If you want to listen to DSD without any down sampling you need to use JRiver with ASIO or WASAPI. If you perhaps post some screen shot JRiver users my be able to chime in. I use foobar which plays DSD without any problems with DoP therefore JRiver should also be able to.


----------



## Arni

Hi, first post here but was following this thread for a while now.

Ordered the Ares from Vinshine last Friday and received it the following Monday in Sydney, how excellent is that!!!

Kudos to Alvin for excellent service.

Now time for some listening.

What is the burn in time for the Ares?

Cheers


----------



## IlluminatiTri (Aug 3, 2017)

IlluminatiTri said:


> I can't use ASIO on JRiver because DSD isn't supported over ASIO, and I do have some DSD stuff that I listen to. I normally have it set to WASAPI so I can play DSD.
> 
> What I'm talking about for 24/192 is this: 1) right click the little speaker in the bottom right of Windows 2) click Playback Devices 3) double-click XMOS Audio (or whatever the Ares is) 4) go to Advanced tab 5) click Default Format dropdown box 6) look at maximum bit depth/sample rate
> 
> For me, the max I see is 24/192. What do you see? Or does the Windows setting not actually affect what JRiver can output if JRiver is set to not downsample?



This is what I'm talking about for 24/192 - I have DSD working through WASAPI (DoP) already, thank you for the information though! Does this setting not matter? Or does it go to 24/384 for you?

EDIT: I've fixed this issue! Unfortunately, there's still a ton more.


----------



## bearwarrior

Does anyone have the detailed setting of Foobar 2000 for Ares? I want to play DSD format, but I can only see it is playing 44.1K all the time.

Thanks!


----------



## IlluminatiTri

I seem to have endless issues with the Ares, which is really a shame because I love how it sounds. It makes it a pain in the a** to use, though.

Here's the situation: When I turn on my computer, I open JRiver and try to play a song. It get stuck on "Buffering" and hangs. I force close. I try YouTube. YouTube won't play, either. Something is wrong with Windows/the driver. The device is recognized in Playback Devices for Windows. I try to restart the Windows Audio service. It fails to stop the process because it "didn't respond in a timely manner". I restart the computer. I can play music. I turn off the computer when I'm done listening. And repeat this whole thing.

I have no idea what's wrong. I've tried the Denafrips driver, the regular Windows driver, uninstalling the device multiple times, with and without ISO Regen. I've been working on this for over a week, and nothing has fixed it. Does anyone have ANY idea what to do? I love how it sounds, but it's a shame it's so difficult to use (for me). I haven't had this issue with my Bimby, Modi 2 Uber, or Fiio X5 ii (in DAC mode), all of which also worked fine with the ISO Regen.

Any help appreciated. I have it working fine with DSD and 24/384 now which is good at least, but this issue is a huge pain in the behind. If I didn't like the sound so much, I'd sell it in a heartbeat.


----------



## alvin1118

IlluminatiTri said:


> I seem to have endless issues with the Ares, which is really a shame because I love how it sounds. It makes it a pain in the a** to use, though.
> 
> Here's the situation: When I turn on my computer, I open JRiver and try to play a song. It get stuck on "Buffering" and hangs. I force close. I try YouTube. YouTube won't play, either. Something is wrong with Windows/the driver. The device is recognized in Playback Devices for Windows. I try to restart the Windows Audio service. It fails to stop the process because it "didn't respond in a timely manner". I restart the computer. I can play music. I turn off the computer when I'm done listening. And repeat this whole thing.
> 
> ...



Hi sir, can we arrange a teamview remote session to look into the computer settings ?


----------



## joseph69

alvin1118 said:


> Hi sir, can we arrange a teamview remote session to look into the computer settings ?


Now this is A+ customer service!


----------



## alvin1118

joseph69 said:


> Now this is A+ customer service!



 Thanks Joseph.


----------



## IlluminatiTri

alvin1118 said:


> Hi sir, can we arrange a teamview remote session to look into the computer settings ?


Sure, thank you very much! I'll PM you so we don't have to clog the thread up.


----------



## rudra

IlluminatiTri said:


> I seem to have endless issues with the Ares, which is really a shame because I love how it sounds. It makes it a pain in the a** to use, though.
> 
> Here's the situation: When I turn on my computer, I open JRiver and try to play a song. It get stuck on "Buffering" and hangs. I force close. I try YouTube. YouTube won't play, either. Something is wrong with Windows/the driver. The device is recognized in Playback Devices for Windows. I try to restart the Windows Audio service. It fails to stop the process because it "didn't respond in a timely manner". I restart the computer. I can play music. I turn off the computer when I'm done listening. And repeat this whole thing.
> 
> ...



Sorry to hear that you are having trouble with ARES. since I don't use JRiver I am throwing some ideas out to you.  As mentioned before if you post some screen shots then people who use the software will chime in. Have you adjusted your buffer setting.Considering that other people have used the Ares with Jriver I don't see any reason why it won't work in your setup. What Windoze OS are you using. If you have visualization etc enabled in JR you need to make sure your buffer size is adequate. If you have tried everything on your computer and it does work , the other option is to try the DAC with a different computer. If it still has the same issue then it may be the unit itself.To keep the set up simple my suggestion is to remove the ISO regen out of the equation and uninstall other ASIO drivers that you have installed on the computer and give it a go.


----------



## IlluminatiTri

I don't think the issue is with JRiver specifically since Chrome also has issues (and Edge, etc.), so it's not program specific - it's something with the OS (which is Windows 10 Home).

I'll try it with another computer - that's a good idea.

I've tried with and without the ISO Regen - no difference.

I've also tried with different drivers. The one provided by Denafrips and the standard Windows driver both have the same issue, although the standard Windows one is the only one that allows 24/384, so I use that one.
 - I've also tried each driver with and without the ISO Regen.

I'll give an update once I've tried on another computer (my laptop, I guess). Thank you for the suggestions! Much appreciated.


----------



## joseph69

I mentioned this before, and I'll mention it again.
JRiver wouldn't wouldn't plat DSD64 with my KTE Spring DAC...It only played 352kHz and all of my setting were 100% correct. Afterwards trying to plat any other file format, JRiver MC-21 was all over the place showing the wrong kHz during playback. A fellow H-F member took it upon himself to download JRiver MC-22 being we have the same DDC/DAC and had the same exact issue I did trying to play DSD64. I then downloaded the free Roon trial and the DSD64 played immediately without issue. Don't overlook JRivers software being the issue.


----------



## IlluminatiTri

joseph69 said:


> I mentioned this before, and I'll mention it again.
> JRiver wouldn't wouldn't plat DSD64 with my KTE Spring DAC...It only played 352kHz and all of my setting were 100% correct. Afterwards trying to plat any other file format, JRiver MC-21 was all over the place showing the wrong kHz during playback. A fellow H-F member took it upon himself to download JRiver MC-22 being we have the same DDC/DAC and had the same exact issue I did trying to play DSD64. I then downloaded the free Roon trial and the DSD64 played immediately without issue. Don't overlook JRivers software being the issue.


I don't doubt that it could be an issue! However, I don't think it's necessarily causing my issue, because it happens when JRiver isn't running after a full restart/cold boot with every program you could think of. Furthermore, it didn't have this issue with my Schiit stuff. I'll look into it, though, because might as well!


----------



## joseph69

JRiver just may not getting along with the Denafrips ARES like it didn't with my Spring. Good luck getting to the bottom of your issue, I know how frustrating this is. I spent 8+hrs trying to figure out what was going on, until the fellow member did what he did for me.


----------



## IlluminatiTri

joseph69 said:


> JRiver just may not getting along with the Denafrips ARES like it didn't with my Spring. Good luck getting to the bottom of your issue, I know how frustrating this is. I spent 8+hrs trying to figure out what was going on, until the fellow member did what he did for me.


Thanks !- I'll try uninstalling JRiver and seeing if I can get foobar to work or something, but that'll probably have to wait until the morning.


----------



## lukeap69

I do not know your exact issue but everytime I get an update of Win 10 (I am on Insiders Preview), both the Ares driver and my DAC-19 are messed up. So I had to uninstall and reinstall the drivers and disabling signature verification of Win 10. Both drivers work after doing this.


----------



## JoeDoe

For those who are interested, I'm just gonna leave this here... May be a great way to get more of these guys stateside. 

https://www.massdrop.com/vote/Denafrips-DACs






*I'm in no way affiliated with Denafrips or MD*


----------



## rudra

Nothing against Massdrop,  I would be curious how good their support is if my DAC had issues especially when I don't live in the USA. Personally I would prefer to buy from Vinshine. 

**I'm in no way affiliated with Denafrips or vinshine**


----------



## lukeap69

rudra said:


> Nothing against Massdrop,  I would be curious how good their support is if my DAC had issues especially when I don't live in the USA. Personally I would prefer to buy from Vinshine.
> 
> **I'm in no way affiliated with Denafrips or vinshine**


IME with MD, if everything is okay then they are okay. When I had one issue with their shipping (their fault) they can have the worst customer service I have dealt with. But if the manufacturer is going to provide after sales service then I don't think there is any problem.


----------



## thanh1973

Energy said:


> I wanted the same but realize they were all OS unless deciding to go for their Terminator model which unfortunately will be well over $4,000 most likely.
> 
> I think right now it's a give or take regarding R2R, DSD, NOS, and Linearity implementations. The Holo Audio Spring surprisingly does well on noise with SNR of -126dB for NOS. it's patented linear compensation works great too not to add it's support for DSD using an additional set of R2R ladders.
> 
> ...



Looks like Audio GD has everything you want. http://www.audio-gd.com/R2R/R2R7/R2R7EN.htm


----------



## thanh1973

Does anyone own the Pontus?
http://www.denafrips.com/pontus.html


----------



## nitewulf

Anyone have the Venus?


----------



## heliosphann

Anyone have a Saturn?


----------



## PitBul34

thanh1973 said:


> Does anyone own the Pontus?
> http://www.denafrips.com/pontus.html


Yes I do: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/denafrips-pontus-r2r-ladder-dac-close-up-view.853050/unread


----------



## TPSRA (Aug 15, 2017)

hicr49 said:


> Hi all, just discovered this post and still reading through it. Lots of great/exciting promises. Quick question, does anyone know if DENAFRIPS a Taiwan based company or China?


I'm from Taiwan and I never saw anyone discussing about Denafrips on any Taiwanese forums. Didn't know they have FB page and special product for Taiwan before I came across this thread.
And they use simplified Chinese on the box , so there you go
Not sure why previous posts think they're form Taiwan though.


----------



## alvin1118

TPSRA said:


> I'm from Taiwan and I never saw anyone discussing about Denafrips on any Taiwanese forums. Didn't know they have FB page and special product for Taiwan before I came across this thread.
> And they use simplified Chinese on the box , so there you go
> Not sure why previous posts think they're form Taiwan though.



Hi TPSRA, DENAFRIPS is located in Guang Zhou, China, where many great audio manufacturers based in.


----------



## gearofwar

Hi guys, Does anyone know what kind of power cord does Ares have? is it a common generic one?


----------



## alvin1118

gearofwar said:


> Hi guys, Does anyone know what kind of power cord does Ares have? is it a common generic one?



Hi @gearofwar , it's a common generic power cord.


----------



## mr.dave

Hey everybody,

Based on this thread, I just bought an Ares DAC. It's still burning in, but I am already impressed (considering the price - as I'm currently located in China, I payed around 500 EUR)!

However, I'd like to ask, whether or not, the Ares would benefit from adding a Singxer SU-1 or not. Someone wrote this somewhere in this thread, but if I buy the singxer I would have to buy another coax cable. Then it's around 400+ EUR more somit might be the better choice to sell the ares and get the next bigger model instead - looking for some advice/opinions here!

Thanks to everyone who contributed here so far - just glad that I came across this thread before buying an Gustard u20 pro )

David


----------



## ZGojira

mr.dave said:


> Hey everybody,
> 
> Based on this thread, I just bought an Ares DAC. It's still burning in, but I am already impressed (considering the price - as I'm currently located in China, I payed around 500 EUR)!
> 
> ...



The difference would be minimal at best  The USB implementation on the Ares is quite good, I actually found it better than the coax input. 
Money would be much better spent on the better model


----------



## mr.dave (Aug 28, 2017)

ZGojira said:


> The difference would be minimal at best  The USB implementation on the Ares is quite good, I actually found it better than the coax input.
> Money would be much better spent on the better model



Hey ZGojira,

Thanks for your quick reply! I would have thought the same if I wouldn't somehow remember that someone in this thread wrote that he fancied it.

However, it's off the table now. But it's a (most welcome) surprise to me, that the USB input is even BETTER then coax.. wow!

After appr. 50h it already sounds REALLY good to my ears - there could be a little bit more... hm something I can't really name (listening to Mahler 3rd) but overall (and for ALL non classical stuff) - it's incredible..... a 500 EUR DAC!!!! Playing on that level - I'm getting really interested in the bigger models now....


----------



## PitBul34 (Aug 30, 2017)

thanh1973 said:


> Does anyone own the Pontus?
> http://www.denafrips.com/pontus.html



I have maked Denafrips 'Pontus' live tests, all samples are lossless 24\96 wav files, enjoy!

https://head-fi.org/threads/denafri...dac-close-up-view.853050/page-2#post-13689632


----------



## shansik

Today I received Ares. I want to express my gratitude for the quality goods, excellent packaging, Alvin for the pleasant communication and very quick sending! Many thanks for this attitude to the client! Very satisfied with the cooperation!


----------



## Gjoel

I have also just joined the Ares club. 

I did upgrade from Mimby to Ares. The Mimby did a great job in my old setup (Burson Soloist SL/HD700). But after buying a pair of STAX sr007mk2 and SRM-353x I was in the market for a better and balanced dac. 

So after reading this thread, I did take the chance. 

Got around 50 hrs on Ares and so far really impressed and happy with the buy.


----------



## CJG888

It would be great to see a comparison between this, the new Audio-gd R2R and the Soekris DAC1321...


----------



## Zachik

Hey guys,

I am in the market for a new DAC, and stumbled upon this thread.
Seems like the thread went VERY quiet 2-3 months ago, where (IMHO) several good questions were not answered. Main questions (to me):
1. How does ARES compare to Schiit Bimby? Yes, I know, @willsw commented (in post #979) but that is 1 person's opinion... Nobody else compared them?!
2. What about Schiit Gumby?! Yes, I know it cost approx. 2 times, but several people mentioned before that those 2 needs to be compared, and I totally agree! 
3. Very few comparisons to Chord 2Qute (@willsw in post #884 actually preferred the 2Qute). In post 1016 @ajreynol mentioned he wants to compare them... Did you? What do you think?

For reference, my desktop setup is desktop PC (JRiver) -> DAC -> Schiit Jot / Cavalli LC -> Headphones.  I am not really listening much through speakers (although I do have JBL LS305s in my desktop setup connected to the Schiit Jot pre-amp outputs). Personal preference is warm sound signature (I know Jot is NOT warm, but it works well with warm / bassy headphones like Sony Z7 etc.).

Currently, I use built-in DAC in Jot (I know it is not very good, to say the least). I want to invest in a good DAC and my 3 candidates are: Gumby, ARES, 2Qute (random order). The 2Qute and Gumby (in the $1300 price range) already stretch my budget, so please no suggestions to go for the Terminator 

I would appreciate any help or opinions.

Thanks,
Zachi.


----------



## sheldaze

The ARES does quite well at its price, having more clarity and tighter bass control versus the Bimby. The 2Qute and the Gumby are both better. Though you diverge dramatically in how each processes and outputs sound. If you are looking for DACs at that level, you might also consider the Metrum Amethyst. Having owned the three, I think you pretty much have three distinctive, yet interesting sounds, covered - all at the same level of DAC competency.


----------



## CJG888

Maybe wait for the new Soekris?


----------



## Zachik

sheldaze said:


> The ARES does quite well at its price, having more clarity and tighter bass control versus the Bimby. The 2Qute and the Gumby are both better. Though you diverge dramatically in how each processes and outputs sound. If you are looking for DACs at that level, you might also consider the Metrum Amethyst. Having owned the three, I think you pretty much have three distinctive, yet interesting sounds, covered - all at the same level of DAC competency.


What I understand from your response is:
* Gumby, 2Qute, Amethyst - are all better than ARES.
* Those 3 are the same level, just sound different.

Did I get it right? If so - between those 3, can you try and compare the sound?

Thanks!


----------



## everittroad

Hi, I have a audio Gd nfb 17.32 going to a audeze Deckard. I'm mainly using it as a DAC for my marantz CD player (cd6006). Will there be much improvement as I'm mainly using it for Redbook conversion. I noticed most of the discussion is on using computers.


----------



## cnspt

Disclaimer: I have no relation, either loan/gift or financial or any other type of interest to any audio manufacturer in the US or abroad.

I bought an Ares (and running for 3 weeks) and I liked the sound compared with Ibasso DX90.   I played with USB without problems, even hooking up with active USB 3 cable for 5 meters.   The sound is clear, spacious, wide and has that smoothness that is difficult to describe but which I find musical.  Found the bass deep, mid range clear.  I found DX90 with a pair of ES9018 annoying in some high piano notes, no problem with Ares.  I like classical music and have expensive sets of British speakers, power amp and preamp with 2 separate power supplies, no overpriced equipment over $5K.  So far, nothing to complain on Ares except the fading lights in front of the DAC.

My weak link in my system was the DAC so I thought R2R would be an interesting *investment* for next 10-15 years.  For under $1K, I narrowed it down to Schiit Modi MB vs Ares.  But mimby has USB gen 2 so essentially you need to get the Schiit Eitr for another $200 (shipping included).   My guess is that Mimby + Eitr at $500 with shipping is unlikely to be as good as a true R2R ladder with newer USB.  Mimby warranty is 2 years vs 3 yrs for Ares.  You may try Schiit Bifrost with USB gen 5 but several reviewers think it sounds similar to Mimby.  More expensive R2R options are available between $1-3K but I think automation may make prices more competitive in near future.

Keep in mind, hi end audio mfg are chasing a limited number of customers so there is an increasing number of trolls in most audio blogs and some "super" faked sites may even ban you if you make comments contrary to their sponsorship.  So for the smart guy out there having to making a decision on the right DAC, it is up to buyer to discern actual review from phony ones, the latter often making disparaging comments against competitors.  Figuring bias is a process more sophisticated than spotting a fake Amazon review.  It is easy to hear bias when reviewer can tell the difference between 16.5 and 17 bit definition.  But really smooth talking reviewer will tell you that he has listened to dozens of high end DACs and he can remember product A has a subjective (un-measurable) better quality than product B.  Remember, bias can also be subconscious, the person owns the equipment and/or he likes a particular type of sound.  Thus, if possible listen to equipment before making a purchase.  Remember, when purchasing an expensive equipment, make sure it will last for a long time.  Good luck!


----------



## rudra

everittroad said:


> Hi, I have a audio Gd nfb 17.32 going to a audeze Deckard. I'm mainly using it as a DAC for my marantz CD player (cd6006). Will there be much improvement as I'm mainly using it for Redbook conversion. I noticed most of the discussion is on using computers.



As a former NFB 17.32 owner the Ares is a more musical dac than the 17.32 with redbook conversion.


----------



## rudra (Sep 22, 2017)

@cnspt I don't know for sure  how many bits I am actually hearing , but in the grand scheme of things I don't care how many bits it is if I don't enjoy it. One thing to remember reviewers are human and we humans have biases. So enjoy your dac.


----------



## everittroad

rudra said:


> As a former NFB 17.32 owner the Ares is a more musical dac than the 17.32 with redbook conversion.


Thank you. That's good to know.


----------



## cnspt

rudra said:


> @cnspt I don't know for sure  how many bits I am actually hearing , but in the grand scheme of things I don't care how many bits it is if I don't enjoy it. One thing to remember reviewers are human and we humans have biases. So enjoy your dac.



Bias can come from equipment system, from education, experience, price, ears, room, type of music, etc.  A reviewer, including myself, should know its own limitations and preferences before getting to nuts and bolts.  For instance, I listen mostly to classical music and my bias is for "British sound" speakers and my view is based on that.  Someone who depends only on our biased reviews to make an expensive purchase is just not doing the homework.  You got to go out there and listen to what you like, especially those setting up for the first time.  Also, there are a lot of used equipment and demos at 1/2 to 1/3 of retail prices.  Shop like a pro!


----------



## wahsmoh

Just got in the Amethyst today. It's been trading blows back and forth with my Theta Digital DS Pro progeny A and the Chord Mojo. Better overall than both, although the Theta Digital DAC has a unique slam and dynamic contrast that is unlike either. The Amethyst is more neutral than the old Theta and also sounds more resolute. As in slightly more air in treble, slightly less congestion, slightly more low level detail. The Theta has the edge in soundstage and headroom but the Amethyst images very well and I can hear more details in busy passages than the Theta.. possibly cause the Theta has the upper midrange forwardness and lower bass slam. This DAC feels like a keeper to me. I will try it out on speakers soon. So far just hooked up the HD600 directly to the headphone out and enjoyed what I heard.


----------



## franz159 (Sep 30, 2017)

wahsmoh said:


> Just got in the Amethyst today. It's been trading blows back and forth with my Theta Digital DS Pro progeny A and the Chord Mojo. Better overall than both, although the Theta Digital DAC has a unique slam and dynamic contrast that is unlike either. The Amethyst is more neutral than the old Theta and also sounds more resolute. As in slightly more air in treble, slightly less congestion, slightly more low level detail. The Theta has the edge in soundstage and headroom but the Amethyst images very well and I can hear more details in busy passages than the Theta.. possibly cause the Theta has the upper midrange forwardness and lower bass slam. This DAC feels like a keeper to me. I will try it out on speakers soon. So far just hooked up the HD600 directly to the headphone out and enjoyed what I heard.


Hi!
Could you elaborate more how the Metrum Acoustics Amethyst compares with the Chord MoJo?
I own the MoJo too and I'm evaluating to buy the Amethyst.
I like how the MoJo sound, very musical to my ears, especially with voices and small jazz groups,  but probably lacks some definition ability  with bigger instrumental masses (read orchestra).
Thanks!


----------



## xenithon

Really enjoying the Ares. Find it a little "soft" around the edges, but still manages to extract a lot of detail and be musical / non-fatiguing. 

Does anyone else experience a significant change (improvement) once it has been on for a long time? When cold it is quite a bit thinner sounding, almost lacklustre. But after a good few hours of being on, I find it changes for the better quite markedly.


----------



## rixlbg (Oct 28, 2017)

Hello, everyone.

I have a little problem with my very recently arrived *Denafrips Venus*, I hope someone, or even Alvin, can help me. The DAC works great through the USB connection with my PC, but I can't make it work through the coaxial or optical connections with my blu-ray player/source Oppo BDP-105. The sound gets full of cracks and distortions and, eventually, the only thing you can hear are the cracks. A bunch of LEDs goes on and off as if the Venus could not decide what kind of format is being fed into it (just a speculation, I really don't know what the issue is). That's a pity because a have a bunch of CDs I was hoping to primarily use the Venus as a DAC for the Oppo and just secondarily for my PC. The BDP-105 does not have a USB out, so I am stuck to coaxial or optical. I already changed every possible configuration option on the Oppo, including changing the format fed to the coaxial and optical outputs from bitstream to LPCM, with no success; but I don't think the problem is with the Oppo 105 because my old DAC works with it immediately with many diverse configurations. Did someone have a similar experience with other DACs and does somebody have any idea on what is happening and what could I do to solve it, if anything?  I hope the Venus hasn't been damaged.

Sorry for posting a question about the Venus in an Ares thread, but there is no specific thread for the Venus. I am also going to repeat the question on the Pontus thread and maybe on the Terminator's.

Thank you for your help.

Cheers.


----------



## alvin1118

Hi @rixlbg ,

No worry, you may email me at vinshineaudio@gmail.com with your order number #.

I'd try my best to assist you.

Many thanks. 

Rgds ,
Alvin 
Vinshine Audio


----------



## AltCtrl

Zachik said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> I am in the market for a new DAC, and stumbled upon this thread.
> Seems like the thread went VERY quiet 2-3 months ago, where (IMHO) several good questions were not answered. Main questions (to me):
> ...


I'm in the same boat. Did you end up getting the Ares? I'm also considering the Gustard x20 Pro and Oppo Sonica.


----------



## Zachik

AltCtrl said:


> I'm in the same boat. Did you end up getting the Ares? I'm also considering the Gustard x20 Pro and Oppo Sonica.


Funny story... I ended up buying a 4th non-listed candidate 
My choice at the end was the Metrum Amethyst.


----------



## monster7

I would like to ask does anyone compare Denafrips Ares to Metrum Musette DAC? Thanks


----------



## leeperry (Nov 19, 2017)

I forgot, why so many caps again lol? http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/denafrips/3.html

Why not far less much bigger Mundorf Mlytic's for instance?

So 4K buy you a gazillion SILMIC caps but you still get the cheapest RCA & IEC sockets they could find, now that is ironic but I guess they got a really good deal on SILMIC's


----------



## xenithon

Quick question on the Ares - can you use both the XLR and RCA outputs? I have a balanced SS amp that I am feeding from the Ares, and thinking of getting a tube amp to complement the setup, which would be SE. I obviously would not use both at the same time, but can I have both connected to the Ares at the same time (and just switch on whichever amp I intend to use)?


----------



## rudra

xenithon said:


> Quick question on the Ares - can you use both the XLR and RCA outputs? I have a balanced SS amp that I am feeding from the Ares, and thinking of getting a tube amp to complement the setup, which would be SE. I obviously would not use both at the same time, but can I have both connected to the Ares at the same time (and just switch on whichever amp I intend to use)?


you will be ok. I used mine like that before I got XLR splitter to my balanced amps


----------



## xenithon

Many thanks rudra. Out of interest, what XLR splitter do you use?


----------



## rudra

any run of the mill XLR splitter will do . I got mine done at a local shop with mogami cable and neutrik connector


----------



## slex (Dec 1, 2017)

xenithon said:


> Quick question on the Ares - can you use both the XLR and RCA outputs? I have a balanced SS amp that I am feeding from the Ares, and thinking of getting a tube amp to complement the setup, which would be SE. I obviously would not use both at the same time, but can I have both connected to the Ares at the same time (and just switch on whichever amp I intend to use)?


Im using  Ares XLR balance out to Jot's balance in (headphone) .RCA out to preamp to poweramp 2 channel spk system.  Ares DAC and MHDT DAC(2channel and Heaphone) both are fed by a single Schiit ETIR.


----------



## rixlbg (Jan 8, 2018)

*Disclaimer*_: I have no relation, any, _zilt_, _nicht_, nada, with Denafrips (apart from the fact that I own one of their products, of course) or any other audio manufacturer in any country on Earth._


Hi, all

I’ve had an issue with my *Denafrips Venus* when it first arrived (original post below) and I want to describe my experience with Denafrips customer service. At the start, I was a bit afraid if I really would get any customer service at all because I am the second owner of my unit and I live in distant-hot-and-out-of-the-radar-for-audiophile-stuff Brazil. I’ve been attended by Alvin here in the forum and by email and I described him my troubles; he immediately detected the issue: I would need to replace the DSP board, which is a very straight-forward process of just open the chassis and unplug-plug-and-play. But I got a little flea behind my ear: he had found the problem too quickly, just by my descriptions, “maybe this Alvin guy just doesn’t know what he is talking about”, I asked myself. He sent me the replacing DSP board (and the instructions) free of charge and well packed through DHL and I did the switch easily. And… everything worked great! The cracks and distortions of old had gone and I ended up with this great crystal sound. I am very happy!

What got me pleased the most in my experience with the Denafrips customer service is how they didn't have any excuses or caveats with the fact that I’ve bought my Venus second hand (here in the 'for sale forums') and I don’t have an invoice with my name on it. Alvin just attended me as he would any new client and honored their warranty with no concerns about the expensive DSP board replacement going to expensive-shipping and distant Brazil. We know that this is the way things should work in any company but I am afraid the truth is that many of them just look for the minimal poor excuse to not spend a buck on you: “Oh, I am sorry, the warranty is not transferable” or “Sorry, we do not offer service in your poverty-stricken country” or “I just don’t like the fact you implied some product of ours could ever need any customer service, so, no customer service for you!” or “Oops, we just did not received your last 17 emails; are you certain you sent them or even if you just know how to type?” or just plain and simple silence; these are few of some of the lines you may listen to/read in interactions with many other businesses out there but not with Denafrips. Alvin/VinShineAudio/Denafrips' super quick, precise and no-problem-about-it attitude makes me confident in highly recommend their products even if you buy them second hand. And, also, alongside the great sound quality I’ve experienced with the Venus, it makes me put their brand in the very first position for any upgrade of equipment I may consider in the future… maybe I can see a Terminator coming my way soon… 

Thank you very much, *Alvin*, my confidence in the humankind has been restored and all that thing; and sorry for taking so much time for posting my experience here in the forum.

(I am going to post this in the Denafrips Pontus thread as well as I’ve written about my former problems there also. The fact I haven't written this in the ‘Denafrips Venus thread’ is that it seems to not exist one until my original post came out.)

I hope this post can help someone.


Cheers from Brazil.


Ricardo






rixlbg said:


> Hello, everyone.
> 
> I have a little problem with my very recently arrived *Denafrips Venus*, I hope someone, or even Alvin, can help me. The DAC works great through the USB connection with my PC, but I can't make it work through the coaxial or optical connections with my blu-ray player/source Oppo BDP-105. The sound gets full of cracks and distortions and, eventually, the only thing you can hear are the cracks. A bunch of LEDs goes on and off as if the Venus could not decide what kind of format is being fed into it (just a speculation, I really don't know what the issue is). That's a pity because a have a bunch of CDs I was hoping to primarily use the Venus as a DAC for the Oppo and just secondarily for my PC. The BDP-105 does not have a USB out, so I am stuck to coaxial or optical. I already changed every possible configuration option on the Oppo, including changing the format fed to the coaxial and optical outputs from bitstream to LPCM, with no success; but I don't think the problem is with the Oppo 105 because my old DAC works with it immediately with many diverse configurations. Did someone have a similar experience with other DACs and does somebody have any idea on what is happening and what could I do to solve it, if anything?  I hope the Venus hasn't been damaged.
> 
> ...


----------



## canthearyou (Dec 23, 2017)

I have an Ares en route from a fellow Head-fi member. I'll be able to direct compare it to Gustard X20 Pro. I'll be feeding it via Singxer F1 coax.

Got it today. I am very impressed with it so far. Doing a direct comparison against the Gustard X20 Pro. The Ares has a clean, natural, and smooth sound. It does seem to be rather detailed yet easy to listen through. The X20 Pro is a bit more energetic, but possibly slightly more artificial sounding.

It's gonna be a tough decision to choose one. I will say I am interested to hear the Pontus, now.

After listening last night and on and off today I decided it's not for me. The smooth presentation along with my smooth sounding tube amp is too much. It's listed in the classifieds.


----------



## rubick

Just gotten my Ares. Special thanks to Alvin and Vinshineaudio. Ordered today and received it just hours later.
Really great sound for the price paid!


----------



## alvin1118

Most welcome @rubick. Enjoy the music!

Rgds,
Alvin


----------



## davveswe

How is the oppo sonica compared to ares?


----------



## Carlo7

Mikhail,  I have the lks 004 how does the Ares compare ?

Thanks carlo7


----------



## mourip

alvin1118 said:


> Most welcome @rubick. Enjoy the music!
> 
> Rgds,
> Alvin



Hi Alvin,

A couple of questions that others might also be interested in.

1. Do you have a return policy or trial period?
2. Do you have a service facility in the US or do users need to send their units back to China for something more than a user-friendly board swap.
3. Is your warranty transferable?

Thanks!
Paul


----------



## alvin1118

mourip said:


> Hi Alvin,
> 
> A couple of questions that others might also be interested in.
> 
> ...



Hi Paul,

Good day.

1. Apologies there is no return policy/trial period at this moment due to our online direct sales business model. It would be difficult to handle the logistics alone. 
2. The DAC (except Ares), is modular design. We usually do a board-swap arrangement when service/repair is required. We are working with a credible partner in the US as our service facility if the client is not hands-on. 
3. Yes, the warranty is transferable.

Many thanks.

Rgds,
Alvin @ VINSHINE AUDIO

p/s: if it's not appropriate to reply, mod please assist to remove this post.


----------



## mourip

alvin1118 said:


> Hi Paul,
> 
> Good day.
> 
> ...



Thanks Alvin.


----------



## Jokanok

I am very much interested to buy this DAC but I cannot find any good information about the analog output stage! 
is it fully discrete without opamps? 
The only info I found in this thread is that it is a Denafpris mistery? 
I will not decide before having the full info! Any help is very much appreciated.


----------



## ljperez84 (Feb 1, 2018)

sheldaze said:


> The ARES does quite well at its price, having more clarity and tighter bass control versus the Bimby. The 2Qute and the Gumby are both better. Though you diverge dramatically in how each processes and outputs sound. If you are looking for DACs at that level, you might also consider the Metrum Amethyst. Having owned the three, I think you pretty much have three distinctive, yet interesting sounds, covered - all at the same level of DAC competency.



Hi, this is very interesting. Would you be able to grade in a 1 to 10 scale? Bimby, Gimby, Ares, 2qute  and MA? I’m looking for a big soundstage, neutral sound and detail.

FWIW I would be pairing it with a Mjolnir 2, I’m of the idea that the amp and headphones should give you color and the DAC should be as neutral as posible. I’d like to go fully balanced but it isn’t a priority either. DSD is not important to me at all.

Right now I have mimby and I’ve read that it isn’t really far from bimby.

Other DACs I’m considering are Gustard X20 Pro and the new X22

I’d appreciate everyone’s advice!


----------



## jcn3

Jokanok said:


> I am very much interested to buy this DAC but I cannot find any good information about the analog output stage!
> is it fully discrete without opamps?
> The only info I found in this thread is that it is a Denafpris mistery?
> I will not decide before having the full info! Any help is very much appreciated.



if you look at pics, the output stage is based on chips, not discrete transistors.  not that that is a bad thing or good thing.  implementation is always key.


----------



## sheldaze

ljperez84 said:


> Hi, this is very interesting. Would you be able to grade in a 1 to 10 scale? Bimby, Gimby, Ares, 2qute  and MA? I’m looking for a big soundstage, neutral sound and detail.
> 
> FWIW I would be pairing it with a Mjolnir 2, I’m of the idea that the amp and headphones should give you color and the DAC should be as neutral as posible. I’d like to go fully balanced but it isn’t a priority either. DSD is not important to me at all.
> 
> ...



Hard to put a grade on things, especially when some things may excel in one area, but not another. Also I've not heard Ares directly A/B to anything except the 2Qute and Bifrost, or on speakers. When listening to speakers, it is much easier to hear distinct differences between DACs. Differences are much more subtle on headphones.

Soundstage on Gumby was better than Bimby and Mimby. 2Qute was relatively flat. Detail on Gumby was better than MA - this comparison was done via headphones through a Cavalli Glass. It was subtle, but definitely there. But this thread is about the Ares, which I've heard only at meet events - quiet meet events, but not all the DACs were on hand. There's still a slight warmth to the Gumby, despite its soundstage and detail. What I mean, it might not be considered neutral per your requirements. I would press on people who have heard Gumby and Ares, in the same sitting, to ask what they think. Sorry, I've heard these, but too many other variables were in play to make a good review comparison.


----------



## ljperez84

sheldaze said:


> Hard to put a grade on things, especially when some things may excel in one area, but not another. Also I've not heard Ares directly A/B to anything except the 2Qute and Bifrost, or on speakers. When listening to speakers, it is much easier to hear distinct differences between DACs. Differences are much more subtle on headphones.
> 
> Soundstage on Gumby was better than Bimby and Mimby. 2Qute was relatively flat. Detail on Gumby was better than MA - this comparison was done via headphones through a Cavalli Glass. It was subtle, but definitely there. But this thread is about the Ares, which I've heard only at meet events - quiet meet events, but not all the DACs were on hand. There's still a slight warmth to the Gumby, despite its soundstage and detail. What I mean, it might not be considered neutral per your requirements. I would press on people who have heard Gumby and Ares, in the same sitting, to ask what they think. Sorry, I've heard these, but too many other variables were in play to make a good review comparison.


Thanks!


----------



## gordec

Really want to try the Ares. Anyone wants to sell their Ares?


----------



## vtvu

Gingko Audio will have a demo featuring the world premiere of the full line of Denafrips ladder DACs: Ares, Pontus, Venus, and Terminator in Room 1524 at AXPONA
at the Schaumburg Convention Center in Chicago area, April 13-15.
Here is a preview:  
Vinh Vu


----------



## lentoviolento

Is it worth upgrading from the audio gd r2r 11? Thx


----------



## MelonHead

lentoviolento said:


> Is it worth upgrading from the audio gd r2r 11? Thx


I would like to see a comparison between the two as well.


----------



## lentoviolento

I bought the ares.. Soon i'll post a comparison vs r2r 11


----------



## natemact

Just thought I'd mention in here that there is a Terminator up for sale on Canuck Audio Mart http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/649439394-denafrips-terminator-dac-best-offer/


----------



## manishex

anyone compare the Pontus to the holo spring Dac level 1/2?


----------



## Esotar

I have many Best DACs.



Here is the list :


Trinity Designs [Trinity DAC]

TotalDAC [d1-Six]

Aqua Acoustic Quality [Formula xHD]

LampizatOr [Golden Atlantic]

MSB Technology [Analog DAC]

Aqua Acoustic Quality [La Scala MK II Optologic]

PS Audio [DirectStream]

Denafrips [Terminator]

Holo Audio [Spring Lv. 3 KTE]

Schiit Audio [Yggdrasil]

Mytek [Brooklyn]


And I borrowed Super DACs :

MSB Technology [Select DAC II Full Option]

Chord [Dave]

Myek [Manhattan II]



I had A-B test about 2 months.

And I make Best DAC Quality Ranking list.

This ranking is just my subjective thinking.

The formats that is used in comparison test is all 16bit / 44.1KHz, not DSD



The Result :

1st : Select DAC II Full Option - 100%

2nd : Trinity DAC - 90%

3rd : Formula xHD - 77%

4th : d1-Six - 75%

5th : La Scala MK II Optologic - 70%

*6th : Terminator - 69%*

7th : Golden Atlantic - 65%

8th : Dave - 61%

9th : Analog DAC - 60%

10th : Manhattan II - 56%

10th : DirectStream - 53%

11th : Spring Lv. 3 KTE - 51%

12th : Yggdrasil - 47%

13th : Brooklyn - 31%



This result is just [[[my subjective thinking]]]



Best no.1 DAC (cost no objective) : *Select DAC II Full Option*


Best cost-effective no.1 DAC : *Terminator



http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...-comparison-test-result-My-Subjective-Opinion*


----------



## lentoviolento

Esotar said:


> I have many Best DACs.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





come on man... 80k for a dac? even if i won the lottery i wouldn't buy it... children  are starving around the world, dacs like these are the equivalent of expensive cars for those who have tiny penis... asd


----------



## Esotar

lentoviolento said:


> come on man... 80k for a dac? even if i won the lottery i wouldn't buy it... children  are starving around the world, dacs like these are the equivalent of expensive cars for those who have tiny penis... asd



I'm Korean.

My job is to sell reasonable DACs and digital cables.

To introduce cost-effective digital goods, I must compare my products to best DACs.

^^


----------



## lentoviolento

okok i was just joking


----------



## simon740

Hello,

Im looking new DAC and I like this Ares. To now I have Aune S16, Rega Brio R, Naim DAC V1 and Topping D30. But Im looking somethink new, diferent.
My system is: Ayon Audio Spark and WLM La Scala monitor
What do you think? Is this ARES OK?

regards,
Simon


----------



## Carlo7

simon740 said:


> Hello,
> 
> Im looking new DAC and I like this Ares. To now I have Aune S16, Rega Brio R, Naim DAC V1 and Topping D30. But Im looking somethink new, diferent.
> My system is: Ayon Audio Spark and WLM La Scala monitor
> ...


----------



## Carlo7

Simon,
           The Ares is in a different league, better than lks dacs. I would buy it without hesitation  ! It needs a really good quality copper power cord.

Carlo7


----------



## Rhamnetin (Jun 23, 2018)

Jokanok said:


> I am very much interested to buy this DAC but I cannot find any good information about the analog output stage!
> is it fully discrete without opamps?
> The only info I found in this thread is that it is a Denafpris mistery?
> I will not decide before having the full info! Any help is very much appreciated.



I emailed them about this but for the Venus. I can let you know how they respond if you'd like, and you can try asking about the Ares.

- EDIT: Got a response for the Venus. They said the output stage is undisclosed and they would not give any details about it. Hiding technical information... I don't buy from companies like that, I support companies that are transparent about such matters so I will cross Denafrips off my list.

I asked Metrum the same questions about the Pavane, we'll see how they respond. Don't think there is a need to ask Chord those questions about the Hugo TT 2 since it's going to be just like their other DACs in that regard (then again the insanely high output power might beg some different questions), and obviously no need to ask about the Audio Note DAC 5.1 (would ask the community if anything). Those are the DACs I am considering.

EDIT 2: Metrum also said any details about their output stage are confidential, but sent me some datasheet to look at. I will look at it when I get home but if it doesn't answer my questions then I will scratch them off my list too.

Modern day DACs (even high end ones like these) so often put all their focus on the D/A conversion then forget about how important a good output stage is, and I can't support such secrecy when other companies like Chord are very transparent about their products.

Then again spritzer indicated that the Ares is extremely transparent which suggests its output stage isn't polluted.


----------



## mock-up (Jun 23, 2018)

-------------


----------



## Elpampeano

First reply or post for me and from Argentina. Today ordered the Ares from Vinshine, Alvin first class service. Now, waiting for the dac.


----------



## Elpampeano

Will replace an SMSL 1955+ with linear power supply and SMSL S022 bridge (tenor chip).


----------



## alvin1118

Thank you @Elpampeano for your kind words. Your order will be shipped today.


----------



## Reggy

PitBul34 said:


> Hi. I've got this gorgeous sounded Denafrips 'Ares' R2R Ladder DAC! IMO, it sounds better then double priced Holo Audio 'Spring' R2R DAC. Just take a look inside this beautiful device:



Hi PitBul34,

After over a year how are you enjoying your new setup with the Ares? What kind of impressions have you gained from it? I have the Ares, however I am curious on what people are pairing the DAC with. What is your lineup for components when using the Ares? Thanks.


----------



## Reggy

Carlo7 said:


> Simon,
> The Ares is in a different league, better than lks dacs. I would buy it without hesitation  ! It needs a really good quality copper power cord.
> 
> Carlo7


What difference does another power cord make you claim? The stock one I have for the Ares is "E55943LL41230 I-SHENG 10A 125V 27.00118.011-R Power Cable, IS-14"


----------



## PitBul34

Reggy said:


> Hi PitBul34,
> 
> After over a year how are you enjoying your new setup with the Ares?



Hi. I've migrated to the next step: Denafrips Pontus DAC + XRK SHD20 transport. One of the best combination for real money, I think.


----------



## Reggy

PitBul34 said:


> Hi. I've migrated to the next step: Denafrips Pontus DAC + XRK SHD20 transport. One of the best combination for real money, I think.


Look's like a good setup to go for. Did you do some comparisons to the Ares, or did you sell the Ares than buy the Pontus, I'm curious on your take on the Pontus compared to the Ares. Anything inferior in the Ares to speak of?


----------



## PitBul34

Reggy said:


> Did you do some comparisons to the Ares



Yes I did. Please read this page.( DAC-8PRO2 is predecessor of Pontus with the same sound signature).


----------



## Elpampeano

Denafrips Ares at home ! 10 days to Argentina by EMS...Now the 100 hs of break in...but stone cold like it's is, blows away my SMSL 1955+ with linear power supply and Tenor bridge...First class service of Alvin, top notch.


----------



## Elpampeano




----------



## Elpampeano




----------



## alvin1118

Thank you @Elpampeano! Enjoy the music.

Rgds,
Alvin


----------



## mock-up

EXLUSIVE Denafrips factory tour 






https://www.dastereo.ru/t/dastereo-v-gostyah-u-denafrips-denafrips-factory-tour/19735


----------



## hornytoad

Well I received my Ares and played it only for about 15 minutes as I'm busy right now. 

I'm extremely impressed and it only cost 600 some dollars delivered to the U.S. 

Not sure I have heard a dac I like better under 1K and I have listened to many  from Chord, Schiit, Arcam, Marantz,Topping,KEf wireless dac,etc.


----------



## Rhamnetin (Aug 6, 2018)

So I got a Venus as my first R2R DAC. First thing I noticed is reduced treble extension, went from 20 KHz with a Hugo 2 down to 18 KHz. I wonder, is this what R2R DAC fans prefer about R2R DACs? Reduced treble extension? I prefer to hear everything I can hear in reality, so as extended a frequency as possible for me.


----------



## alvin1118

Hello, please try to keep the DAC on all the time. Customers reported that they hear improvement as it warm up. 

Some say a 1000hrs of burn in helps. It's a good idea to try that


----------



## hornytoad

Rhamnetin said:


> So I got a Venus as my first R2R DAC. First thing I noticed is reduced treble extension, went from 20 KHz with a Hugo 2 down to 18 KHz. I wonder, is this what R2R DAC fans prefer about R2R DACs? Reduced treble extension? I prefer to hear everything I can hear in reality, so as extended a frequency as possible for me.


So you can hear the difference between 20 and 18 kHz?


----------



## Rhamnetin

hornytoad said:


> So you can hear the difference between 20 and 18 kHz?



Well the bigger thing I hear is overall more laid back treble, that's true. The difference of 2 KHz treble extension probably has little effect on its own.


----------



## Reggy

It sounds like your use to the "shrill highs" of the chord hugo. https://www.theverge.com/2018/4/24/17273218/chord-hugo-2-review-dac-headphone-amplifier
Perhaps the characteristic treble of the Chord Hugo compensated with whatever headphones or speakers you were using.


----------



## Rhamnetin

Reggy said:


> It sounds like your use to the "shrill highs" of the chord hugo. https://www.theverge.com/2018/4/24/17273218/chord-hugo-2-review-dac-headphone-amplifier
> Perhaps the characteristic treble of the Chord Hugo compensated with whatever headphones or speakers you were using.



Nothing shrill about them, the Stax SR-009 reveals how clean that treble is. But yeah the Hugo 2 is a lot brighter, also much less smooth sounding in all frequencies.


----------



## D2Girls

@alvin1118 re: the denafrips terminator dac, when is the upgrade for dsd512 coming? i read that its a new board that is to be implemented.


----------



## alvin1118

Hello @D2Girls, there is no firm date yet. But I'm positive that it will be released by end of this year


----------



## normanl

What is the lowest price of Ares DAC at the moment and where?


----------



## alphanumerix1

I'm wondering why there aren't really any reviews on this yet....


----------



## Rhamnetin

alphanumerix1 said:


> I'm wondering why there aren't really any reviews on this yet....



Yeah I am surprised Denafrips, especially the Ares, hasn't caught on more by now. I guess it took Audio-GD some time too though.


----------



## D2Girls

Could also be a case that many of the current owners are just not the type of people who post on forums.


----------



## smodtactical

alvin1118 said:


> Hello @D2Girls, there is no firm date yet. But I'm positive that it will be released by end of this year



Hey Alvin, will existing terminator users be able to get the dsd512 upgrade?


----------



## Reggy

alphanumerix1 said:


> I'm wondering why there aren't really any reviews on this yet....


I own it and have listened to it for quite some time on studio monitors. I can give you a bit of a run down, unfortunately I can only compare it to my Focusrite, however I would like to think I have a good idea on how to describe the sound in retrospect to the kind of characteristics it offers. Would you be listening to a DAC like this on headphones or speakers?


----------



## alphanumerix1 (Sep 22, 2018)

Reggy said:


> I own it and have listened to it for quite some time on studio monitors. I can give you a bit of a run down, unfortunately I can only compare it to my Focusrite, however I would like to think I have a good idea on how to describe the sound in retrospect to the kind of characteristics it offers. Would you be listening to a DAC like this on headphones or speakers?



Primarily headphones and i'd appreciate your thoughts on the ares.

(Accompanying gear would be helpful also)


----------



## alphanumerix1

Any impressions ?


----------



## jmpsmash (Nov 21, 2018)

@alvin1118 I am connecting the Ares directly from Windows. After installing the XMOS driver, Roon shows two different devices. a "XMOS USB Audio" device and a "XMOS USB audio 2.0 ST 2005" device. what are the differences? The 2.5 ST version isn't very stable, it get disconnected regularly. Is that expected?


----------



## Suppa92




----------



## WhiskeyJacks

alphanumerix1 said:


> Any impressions ?



I will give you some impressions at the very least. Granted I am not been on head-fi much the past few months due to real life issues, but I don't want people to feel and or think that this DAC is not a fantastic find and a good value. I have used several 500$+ DACs over the past couple years, this is one of 3 that I have owned that exceeds that price. Yet, this is the one I still own and I have not tried to sell or replace it should speak volumes imo especially in this hobby where we are constantly searching for the best  value and best performance of said headphone, amplifier, dac, and dap. I believe that this DAC is one of the best your going to get at a sub 800$ level from what have heard and researched. I directly compared it to the Hugo 2, which in all rights costs  over 3 times the price of this DAC, and I was blown away from the sound coming from the Hugo 2. Though when I had to A/B, and yes the Hugo 2 definitely out performed as it should have, I was surprise that I still absolutely loved the Ares DAC and what is capable of doing for being a sub 100$ DAC. 

It is very clean, balanced, and easy to listen to. No shrill highs, edgy presentations on the Ares from the amplifiers and headphones I have paired with this DAC, and that is something I definitely prefer. I have had several experiences where a clean sounding DAC produced treble that was just rigid and sharp in it's presentation, but with the Ares it tends to be neutral and perhaps a bit smooth(Like my NFB 28 is smooth where it doesn't lack details and range but is easy to listen to if you are sensitive to sharper treble). I would not say it an overly warm DAC but perhaps it is slightly north of neutral or flat, but coming from a very neutral DAC before I would like to point out that it doesn't sound too thick or congested. It is detailed yet doesn't focus on just that, having both great tone or timbre as well as body/weight with the notes, and that is something I really enjoy. It pairs very well with every amp I have used such as: Meier Conerto(tends to be thinner and more lean amp but detailed and airy), NFB 28 amp section( great balanced and detail as well tone), PanAm from ALO(very good pairing with the Vokshod tubes I had which brought forward treble and bass detail and emphasis), iBasso PB2( with 4 mono LME49710 installed, brought a very balanced, spacious, and clean sound from the iBasso), Massdrop Liquid Carbon X( current pairing that sounds very clean, balanced, and competent). There are other's that I have used as well but from over a year ago, and so my memory is less sharp with those details. So, what I am really trying to say is no matter which solid state, tube, or tube hybrid I have used, I have enjoyed whole heartedly with this DAC. I would say it is kind of like a jack of all trades, but if I was to pick one or two things that I really love about this DAC it would be the midrange presentation and the tonality.

I have compared this two the NFB 28 sabre DAC, which is also another very good DAC for the price, but I do feel like I have been happier overall listening to the Ares. It's presentation of my music  helped me two stop obsessing with critical listening all the time and just really let the music wash over me in a sense. Now when I listen to music I find myself enjoying it even when I am trying A/B for a review or critically listen to give my impressions. I do not know if this will help and if it doesn't then I apologize it has been some time since I have given impressions on a DAC. Though I do feel if you are upgrading to a new DAC and want something that is detailed, balanced, reliable(as of the past year and half), possesses nice timbre or tone, and is under 800$ you could do much worse for a value than the Ares.


----------



## Suppa92

is this dac has any sort of error correction like FPGA based correction?

Most of the r2r dacs (denfrips pontus, audio-gd r2r 1, &etc) use that kind of error correction system, I think in audio-gd website & soekris website also mention that with the temperature and time, accuracy of the resisters will change and I'm bit worried if the sound signature will be changed after few years because of the lack of such error correction in Ares.


----------



## rudra

I think the ares has a FGPA error correction just not  the Dual Monoural FPGA Decoding  which is present in the Pontus.


----------



## Suppa92

rudra said:


> I think the ares has a FGPA error correction just not  the Dual Monoural FPGA Decoding  which is present in the Pontus.


What is the difference of Dual Monoural FPGA?


----------



## rudra

My understanding is that each channel has it own FGPA correction chip in a dual setup


----------



## domho7

Hi. Presently I am using chord mojo with cayin N5 dap & Aroma A100 as amp.
My concern is how to connect the cayin dap as it only have coaxial 3.5mm.
Should I change a new dap instead of messing with cables. Tks


----------



## BrokeSkoolBoi

Hello all,

I love surfing the used forums because I find out about different gear like this Dac. 

Is this Amanero USB Interface some noise reduction tech similar to the Schiit Gen 5 usb? I have a Stack with a Mimby/Magni 3 and Eitr and I'm debating whether I should sell the Eitr. Honestly dunno about r2r anymore as I like the Sdac more than the Mimby.. I was going to buy the airist rdac, but this one fills a price gap in r2r dacs that I'm comfortable with saving towards. Would end up pairing the Ares with the CTH/LPS whenever the LPS arrives in the mail


----------



## domho7

Finally got the Ares from Alvin place.
Hook up A&K SR15 Dap and Aroma A100 as amp. 
Whoah out of the box and I like it so much. 
Vocals soundstage bass imaging were just fantastic.


----------



## normanl

domho7 said:


> Finally got the Ares from Alvin place.
> Hook up A&K SR15 Dap and Aroma A100 as amp.
> Whoah out of the box and I like it so much.
> Vocals soundstage bass imaging were just fantastic.


Can you share the link where you ordered Ares from?


----------



## domho7

Hi u can order from vshineaudio.com
Alvin is the official distributor.


----------



## Suppa92

Even though Denafrips site mentions this dac as "True Balanced", it seems it's not true when we see the circuit board because it only has two sections of resistor arrays like a single-ended dac.
Ares Circuit board





But their other dacs have 4 groups of resistor array sections like balanced dacs I've seen before.

Circuit board of Pontus





If Denafrips ares is not true balanced, i think it's not that good to advertise it as "true balanced" and maybe not good for that price for a "fake balaned" dac when there are cheaper options like Schiit multibit & Soekris r2r dacs. Just my opinion. Please correct if I'm wrong.


----------



## rudra

@alvin1118  can you please clarify


----------



## alvin1118

Suppa92 said:


> Even though Denafrips site mentions this dac as "True Balanced", it seems it's not true when we see the circuit board because it only has two sections of resistor arrays like a single-ended dac.
> Ares Circuit board
> 
> 
> ...



Hi @Suppa92,

DENAFRIPS DACs are true balanced, Ares inclusive. Ares architecture is fairly different from the bigger brothers, but, to clarify your doubts, yes, Ares is a true balanced DAC. Its balanced output (XLR), are generated via the R-2R ladders; not like a fake balanced output generated by the use of OPAMP differential converter per se. 

Hope it helps!

Rgds,
Alvin @ Vinshine Audio


----------



## Suppa92 (Jan 22, 2019)

alvin1118 said:


> Hi @Suppa92,
> 
> DENAFRIPS DACs are true balanced, Ares inclusive. Ares architecture is fairly different from the bigger brothers, but, to clarify your doubts, yes, Ares is a true balanced DAC. Its balanced output (XLR), are generated via the R-2R ladders; not like a fake balanced output generated by the use of OPAMP differential converter per se.
> 
> ...


Thank you very much for the reply @alvin1118.

I'm not an electronic engineer but I don't think there is any other way to make a "True Balanced" dac without having 4 independent resistor networks. To have "Balanced" topology circuit you definitely need 4 groups of independent circuits, without that how can we get "Common-Mode Rejection" that we expect from a "Balanced circuit"?
Maybe Ares is "Fully Differential" dac but not a "True Balanced", like we can see in "Massdrop x THX AAA 789" amplifier which is a "Fully Differential" amp that takes "Balanced inputs" and  gives "Balanced Output".
"Fully Differential" dac is definitely better than "Single Ended" but it's still not a "True Balanced" dac.
Please correct me if I said anything wrong.
Thanks.


----------



## alvin1118

You're welcome @Suppa92. Your understanding of true-balanced and fully-differential designs are correct. 

A true-balanced audio equipment needs to have the +ve -ve electronic circuits in place to achieve the balanced topology. DENAFRIPS Ares is a true-balanced DAC with 4 sets of R-2R ladder arrays. It may be deceiving by comparing its R-2R networks with the Pontus/Venus/Terminator; but if you look closely, you'll realize that there are 4 sets of them in the Ares. 

In fact, all DENAFRIPS gears are true-balanced, including the new Hestia & Hyperion pre-power amplifier, and the Artemis flagship headphone amp. 

Cheers,
Alvin


----------



## Triodemode

alvin1118 said:


> You're welcome @Suppa92. Your understanding of true-balanced and fully-differential designs are correct.
> 
> A true-balanced audio equipment needs to have the +ve -ve electronic circuits in place to achieve the balanced topology. DENAFRIPS Ares is a true-balanced DAC with 4 sets of R-2R ladder arrays. It may be deceiving by comparing its R-2R networks with the Pontus/Venus/Terminator; but if you look closely, you'll realize that there are 4 sets of them in the Ares.
> 
> ...



Hello Alvin...  I am curious whether the Denafrips DACs are able to process DSD 256 via DoP?  My understanding is that a PCM rate of 705.6KHz is required for DSD256 over DoP.  I have read that people have trouble with it over the USB 2.0 interface via DoP.


----------



## Suppa92 (Jan 23, 2019)

alvin1118 said:


> You're welcome @Suppa92. Your understanding of true-balanced and fully-differential designs are correct.
> 
> A true-balanced audio equipment needs to have the +ve -ve electronic circuits in place to achieve the balanced topology. DENAFRIPS Ares is a true-balanced DAC with 4 sets of R-2R ladder arrays. It may be deceiving by comparing its R-2R networks with the Pontus/Venus/Terminator; but if you look closely, you'll realize that there are 4 sets of them in the Ares.
> 
> ...


Thanks @alvin1118 for clearing that up.
I have another two questions.

1.What brand of caps used in Ares (Mundorf, wima, nover & etc.)? Since there are many caps in ares I'm bit curious about them because to my knowledge Electrolytic caps have higher chance to go bad compared to diodes, resistors and transistors/ICs and other electronic components.

2.Does Ares correct resistor network errors in FPGA? since resistance of resistors can change with the temperature and time, it's better to correct those inaccuracies in FPGA. Does Ares has that kind of a error correction algorithm in FPGA code?

Thanks.


----------



## domho7

Hi alvin tks for clarification 
I would like to check does the flagship headphone amp comes with 2.5mm input for headphones. Tks


----------



## rudra

Triodemode said:


> Hello Alvin...  I am curious whether the Denafrips DACs are able to process DSD 256 via DoP?  My understanding is that a PCM rate of 705.6KHz is required for DSD256 over DoP.  I have read that people have trouble with it over the USB 2.0 interface via DoP.



No issues with DSD256 over DOP on USB 2.0


----------



## alvin1118

Suppa92 said:


> Thanks @alvin1118 for clearing that up.
> I have another two questions.
> 
> 1.What brand of caps used in Ares (Mundorf, wima, nover & etc.)? Since there are many caps in ares I'm bit curious about them because to my knowledge Electrolytic caps have higher chance to go bad compared to diodes, resistors and transistors/ICs and other electronic components.
> ...



My pleasure. To answer your questions:

1. DENAFRIPS uses long life capacitors, i.e. Elna, Nichicon, Mundort, etc. The typical lifespan is 10-15years, under the design condition where the designer takes into consideration of factors like operating voltage, current, ambient temperature. 
2. This is undisclosed. DENAFRIPS is keeping it close to the chest. Instead of emphasising on technical, the designer believes in marketing the product by its sound quality  - where IMHO should be the focus of this hobby instead of chasing the number. 



Triodemode said:


> Hello Alvin...  I am curious whether the Denafrips DACs are able to process DSD 256 via DoP?  My understanding is that a PCM rate of 705.6KHz is required for DSD256 over DoP.  I have read that people have trouble with it over the USB 2.0 interface via DoP.



Hello @Triodemode ,

DENAFRIPS DACs are capable to play DSD256 via DoP over USB and I2S. Hope it helps!

Many thanks.

Best,
Alvin @ Vinshine Audio


----------



## Suppa92

alvin1118 said:


> My pleasure. To answer your questions:
> 
> 1. DENAFRIPS uses long life capacitors, i.e. Elna, Nichicon, Mundort, etc. The typical lifespan is 10-15years, under the design condition where the designer takes into consideration of factors like operating voltage, current, ambient temperature.
> 2. This is undisclosed. DENAFRIPS is keeping it close to the chest. Instead of emphasising on technical, the designer believes in marketing the product by its sound quality  - where IMHO should be the focus of this hobby instead of chasing the number.
> ...


@alvin1118
Regarding second point, It's fine that Denafrips keeps that kind of technical secrets to themselves, but I'm just worried if the sound signature changes with the temperature when we running it for many hours and using it for years, just like in Tube amplifiers. 
Can we assure that ares can sound exactly the same when we use for long hours and after an year or two?

thank you.


----------



## cobrabucket

Denafrips ARES can decode DSD natively over USB?


----------



## alvin1118

Suppa92 said:


> @alvin1118
> Regarding second point, It's fine that Denafrips keeps that kind of technical secrets to themselves, but I'm just worried if the sound signature changes with the temperature when we running it for many hours and using it for years, just like in Tube amplifiers.
> Can we assure that ares can sound exactly the same when we use for long hours and after an year or two?
> 
> thank you.



DENAFRIPS DAC runs cold, a tad of slight warm if it's used in the environment at slightly higher ambient temperature, i.e. >32°C
It's unlike triode vacuum tube, where it age as you use.

There are many DENAFRIPS users have been using the DAC for more than 2 years. They can speak better than me. 
A customer just text me via FB messenger told me that he bought an earlier version of the Ares with XMOS USB, his comment was "The first impression is great! I’m liking it very much so I maybe looking to upgrade soon!"



cobrabucket said:


> Denafrips ARES can decode DSD natively over USB?



Hello @cobrabucket,

Yes, DENAFRIPS decode DSD, native.

Hope it helps!

Best,
Alvin
Vinshine Audio


----------



## jmpsmash

Alvin, sometimes I get loud noise when trying to play DSD64/128 DSF files on my Terminator. How to fix that? I use Roon and have tried 3 different end points. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.


----------



## Suppa92

alvin1118 said:


> DENAFRIPS DAC runs cold, a tad of slight warm if it's used in the environment at slightly higher ambient temperature, i.e. >32°C
> It's unlike triode vacuum tube, where it age as you use.
> 
> There are many DENAFRIPS users have been using the DAC for more than 2 years. They can speak better than me.
> ...


Thank for the info.

Can you share some infomation about new Artemis Headamp? and can we expect a budget friendly headamp in similar price range of ares?


----------



## cobrabucket (Feb 5, 2019)

How does this DAC do with Hi-Res files [24 bit and higher]?


----------



## m-i-c-k-e-y

Suppa92 said:


> Thank for the info.
> 
> Can you share some infomation about new Artemis Headamp? and can we expect a budget friendly headamp in similar price range of ares?



Try searching its past amps to have glimpse of their philosophy. The budgeted HA-10 (they say it's comparable to Gilmore Lite Mk2) and the then top of the line HA-1Pro.


----------



## Suppa92

m-i-c-k-e-y said:


> Try searching its past amps to have glimpse of their philosophy. The budgeted HA-10 (they say it's comparable to Gilmore Lite Mk2) and the then top of the line HA-1Pro.


I had no idea that they made headamps before.
But they are not mentioned in their website, must be discontinued models now. Wish they make a budget headamp again.


----------



## alvin1118

Artemis is the flagship headamp, a complete re-designed true balanced headphone amplifier. 

Will there be entry/mid range headamps? We will see.


----------



## ReAlien

Did anyone compare Ares to Soekris dac1321? They are pretty similar on the price level. On specs, it looks like Ares has much more precise resistors.


----------



## Suppa92

ReAlien said:


> Did anyone compare Ares to Soekris dac1321? They are pretty similar on the price level. On specs, it looks like Ares has much more precise resistors.


I have the same question. 
I did some reading and in a different forum I saw the maker of soekris dac mentioned that the architecture they use in their dacs ( if I'm not mistaken he mentioned that Denafrips also using similar kind of architecture) doesn't require extremely high precision resistors to sound good. So I don't think difference of precision of resistors between 1321 and ares will matter that much but denafrips has balanced output and also they seem to have very different sound signature.


----------



## alvin1118

Yep, Ares has true balanced output, if that matters.


----------



## Wes S (Apr 14, 2019)

Hi there,

I am interested in the Ares, and would love to know, if it will work with my setup? I use an ipad, with ios12.2, powered usb hub and have a Schiit eitr, to connect to dac.  Will the Ares work with ipad and do i still need the Eitr.  I stream Tidal hifi.  I want to use the Ares with my ipad and Liquid Platinum amp.  Is this possible?  Thanks for your time!

Wes


----------



## DarkMatter1 (May 22, 2019)

I have read one member saying in a post that the 2Qute sounds better than the Ares. I feel the 2Qute is amazing with detail and resolution without sounding harsh.But it seems a little thin at times at low volumes.I would like slightly more weight/body,thickness and warmth without sacrificing detail.Maybe the Ares is what im looking for.


----------



## DarkMatter1 (May 25, 2019)

Is it true that the Ares has a crappy sounding optical input?Thats a deal breaker for me.Unless i get it modded.The OCD HiFi guy on youtube said he was going to mod it.He said he is going to take out the transformer and move it away from the main board.And basically design a whole new chassis for it.I wonder if he finished it.


----------



## elan120

*Very exciting news release* - Denafrips announced the new DSD board that is capable to support DSD1024 / PCM1536.



Here is the link to the news release:  https://www.denafrips.com/single-po...e72-fe20-49ed-aced-396d8b014862&utm_source=so



Looking forward to run DSD1024 soon in my system.


----------



## RadioWonder737 (Jun 9, 2019)

T Bone said:


> As a Holo Spring DAC owner, I am subscribing to this thread and see where this DAC goes.  This should be interesting.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



https://www.vinshineaudio.com/product-page/denafrips-ares-r2r-dac


----------



## RadioWonder737 (Jun 9, 2019)

Sorry, mistake...


----------



## ReAlien

That was distributor's page. Here's manufacturer's page: https://www.denafrips.com/ares


----------



## Ricey20

How do you guys think the Denafrips Ares would compare to my current dac, the Audio-GD Ref 7. Been thinking of getting a newer DAC since my Ref 7 is almost a decade old and I'm not sure which DAC to try out.


----------



## jimmychan

Ricey20 said:


> How do you guys think the Denafrips Ares would compare to my current dac, the Audio-GD Ref 7. Been thinking of getting a newer DAC since my Ref 7 is almost a decade old and I'm not sure which DAC to try out.



You should try R7, I upgraded from Ref 1 to R7.


----------



## Ricey20

jimmychan said:


> You should try R7, I upgraded from Ref 1 to R7.



I have the R7, but it's 10+ years old now or something, so I was wondering if one of these newer decently priced R2 ladder dacs are able to surpass it.


----------



## jimmychan

Ricey20 said:


> I have the R7, but it's 10+ years old now or something, so I was wondering if one of these newer decently priced R2 ladder dacs are able to surpass it.



R7 is the most recent model from audio-gd and different from Reference 7.


----------



## Ricey20 (Jun 24, 2019)

jimmychan said:


> R7 is the most recent model from audio-gd and different from Reference 7.



Oh I see. How was the Reference 1 compared to the R7?
I'm also wondering how the R1 compares to the Denafrips Ares. I know Kingwa told me before the R1 is a step up from the Ref7 in a few areas and comparable in the rest.

I need something in a smaller chasis so I don't think I can get an R7. I need to sell my Ref7 for the same reason.


----------



## Spareribs

Looks pretty awesome. I might get this Denafrips DAC


----------



## XERO1

The Audiophiliac really likes the Ares.

https://www.cnet.com/news/this-digi...-good-it-might-convert-lp-loving-audiophiles/


----------



## DarKu

And I really liked it too 
Here is *my review*


----------



## PitBul34

Welcome Denafrips ARES II :

https://www.vinshineaudio.com/product-page/denafrips-ares-r2r-dac


----------



## Oner_ru

Whats' new?


----------



## PitBul34

Here it is:

https://www.denafrips.com/single-post/2019/08/02/Product-Launch-ARES-II


----------



## jfoxvol

DarKu said:


> And I really liked it too
> Here is *my review*


I just ordered one (though the newer V2) based of your and other reviews.  Looking to replace my Schiit Bifrost Multibit in my office setup with it.  I have a Schiit Yggdrasil in my main system.  If this thing is as good as you guys say, I may end up getting another or maybe one of the higher level ones for my speaker system.  Nice review.


----------



## Ricey20 (Aug 7, 2019)

I received the Ares V2. It's definitely crazy how good it is, as it's better than my AudioGD Ref7. Granted the Ref7 is 10 years old but it was almost $2k. I may start looking into the Pontus now.

For changes vs V1, From their site: it says it has a new DSP FPGA & USB Audio Interface Solution. It uses a proprietary USB Audio Solution via STM32F446 Advanced AMR Based MCU and Licensed Thesycon USB Driver For Windows Platform. Because of the changes it now has a NOS mode and you can change the filter to slow or sharp. DSD1024, PCM1536 Supports On USB Input

This response in the AudioGD thread by Jasoun was what sold me, as I was on the fence for another AudioGD dac. I'm glad I decided to try something else.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/audio-gd-r2r-dac-thread.862053/page-56#post-15028737

Also HUGE shoutout to Alvin and Vinshine, top notch service! You can't go wrong with them!


----------



## Babbaista (Aug 8, 2019)

Ordered an Ares about a month ago, was back ordered, was finally delivered to me last Friday. Saturday, I read that an Ares 2 is coming up! I was a little pissed to be honest, as DAC technology moves quickly and I was not expecting an instant devaluation on my purchase. Wrote an email to Alvin, explaining the situation. As it turned out, what Vinshined had already sent me was the latest version, at no extra cost! That is great customer care my friends. Sounds is getting better on a daily basis, will follow up with more impressions once the burn in is complete


----------



## Smokeyjoecafe

I ordered the Ares in July after reading a few reviews and will be receiving the Ares ii this coming Monday.   I’m so glad to be getting the updated version.   I’m looking  forward to replacing my Mojo for my digital music.  I listen to mostly vinyl or my Wadia CD player. I’ll report back once I receive and start using.  I’ll be comparing to my friend's chord Qutest.


----------



## Babbaista (Aug 11, 2019)

Alright, so my Ares II has more than 40hrs of playtime on the odometer by now.

My impressions:

Sound is big, bold and wide open.
Resolution is superlative. I you spent time and money building a good low noise playback system and transmission path for your music files, you will be rewarded by the A2.
This is a killer DAC for metal and electronic music! Boring audiophile approved stuff will sound nice too, but make sure to experiment with music that relies on timing and punch.
I like being able to tweak focus and detail level with the OS-NOS and filter modes. So far, I prefer the OS on / Slow filter combo.
No need to shop for an aftermarket power supply, what a relief! But the Ares is sensible to AC power cord quality. I found the Nordost Blue Heaven power cord to be too analytical with the A2, I'm getting better results with the smooth sounding JPS Labs Analog AC.
There is no exterior indication to be found about the version of the Ares DAC I was sent, no sticker with SN number and model, you need to open the hood and check on the PC board to see AresV02.
Denafrips products (the Ares at least) are not UL/CSA approved. In my day job (commercial AV system designer), I would not be able able to spec that product for a project.
Conclusion:

I like listening to music with the A2.
Sound quality is very, very good overall, significantly better than the Arcam IRDAC2 (that I own).
The price/performance/build quality of this DAC is outstanding. I am fortunate enough to be able to buy hi-fi gear at dealer cost and I went for the Ares II at retail price, what more can I say.
I do not plan to upgrade this DAC for a few years, as I have the intuition that it is a better performer than other downstream components in my audio system. That's where I am going to put my attention from now on.

Bruno


----------



## Smokeyjoecafe (Aug 27, 2019)

I just received my Ares ii today and put it in right away in my secondary system in the family room.  I’m playing CDs and music on my MacBook Pro. I use Pure Music and a USB noise filter by iFi.  I don’t know how to switch between NOS/OS and the 2 filters...lol.   I’ve reached out to Alvin the distributor to get the information.

I’m using a better power cord and decent cables.  So glad there is a decent power supply verses a cheap wall wart!  Not sure if I will change the fuse to a better one.  If anyone has changed please provide feedback.  I’m waiting to get a better transport. Looking for a used CEC or maybe even a new Cambridge Audio CXC.

Initial findings, way much more bass than the DAC in my receiver!   Soundstage much more defined and larger..  I’m going to compare to my Wadia and my friends Qutest once broken in.  Funny, I really need my reading glasses to see the labels on the front.  It’s also quite hefty given the size!

 I hooked up both a digital cable and a USB cable.  Great to be able to select the input!


----------



## jfoxvol

Smokeyjoecafe said:


> I just received my Ares ii today and put it in right away in my secondary system in the family room.  I’m playing CDs and music on my MacBook Pro. I use Pure Music and a USB noise filter by iFi.  I don’t know how to switch between NOS/OS and the 2 filters...lol.   I’ve reached out to Alvin the distributor to get the information.
> 
> I’m using a better power cord and decent cables.  So glad there is a decent power supply verses a cheap wall wart!  Not sure if I will change the fuse to a better one.  If anyone has changed please provide feedback.  I’m waiting to get a better transport. Looking for a used CEC or maybe even a new Cambridge Audio CXC.
> 
> ...


----------



## Smokeyjoecafe

Thanks, I found the videos last night, I don’t know how I missed it...  anyhow.  Just running in the DAC downstairs.  I was going to buy the Metrome based on a recommendation from my friend until I saw and read a few reviews of the Ares.  I’m glad I bought this instead and can use the extra month to buy a better transport.


----------



## Ricey20

I've been playing around with the different modes and I'm not sure which I like better lol. Just sticking with NOS/Sharp for now.


----------



## Smokeyjoecafe

I purchased my CD transport, a Cambridge audio CXC and it’s a huge improvement over the DVD player I was using with the Ares ii.   I’ll continue to run both, but I’ll need more time to start my comparisons with my other equipment and a DAC - I’m really. happy with this DAC.  It’s really exceeded my expectation especially for the cost.  It punches well above it’s weight.  

Most designs comprise with the power supply and it looks like they played quite a lot of attention to this in their designs.  I can only imagine how the more expensive models sound like.


----------



## protoss

Hows everyones Ares 2? Is it better than the original? Any more feedback? 

Is it louder, blacker, more detail, boring?


----------



## Smokeyjoecafe (Aug 31, 2019)

I never heard the original version but I really like this DAC!  I’ve read a Terminator review and they compared to the newer version to the orginal and they stated you can tell the difference between the two.  The Ares ii is by no means boring.  It’s very musically!


----------



## abvolt

I've seen lots of good reviews on this dac, I'm going to give this one a try also..


----------



## HerrWallen

protoss said:


> Hows everyones Ares 2? Is it better than the original? Any more feedback?



I would also love to hear some impressions, especially NOS vs OS.

Also, I have been looking for a stand-alone dac and is currently beeing torn between this, the Soekris 1541 and the Audio-GD R2R R1: my "want" is something that plays well with the Audio-GD NFB 1Amp and a pair of HD800S and LCD2F preferably with a slight musical "tint". 

Many thanks in advance.


----------



## tvr2500m

Not that I needed another piece of audio gear, seeing/hearing/reading about the Denafrips Ares, it seemed to check all the boxes for me. I bought one and was fortunate enough to have ordered an original Ares model and received an Ares II. Not that I'll likely now ever know what the DAC sounds like that initially attracted my interest, the Ares II is a spectacularly good-sounding, versatile, nice-looking, well-made DAC. I'm very pleased with the DAC and with Vinshine. All are exemplary. Thanks to Alvin at Vinshine and Denafrips.

Thesycon USB driver for Windows. The Ares II uses/licenses a USB driver software from Thesycon. When I first set up the DAC, I simply plugged and played. All seemed to work just fine. Inquiring about the software available for the Ares II, Alvin at Vinshine said to install the Thesycon USB driver. I have and have been using the DAC with it. With JRiver MC25, after the Thesycon driver installation the MC25 configuration options went from something like "high res USB device" to choices identifying Denafrips specifically and a choice of ASIO and WASPI.

My question is, why use the Thesycon driver? I'm running the latest builds of Windows 10. Is there a benefit to use the Thesycon driver with the Ares II? Better sonics (which I suppose the the ultimate objective/end point)? Better something? Does anyone know what is going on with the Thesycon technology?

Thanks!


----------



## Smokeyjoecafe

A description from the USB vendor on the driver:

Thesycon’s USB audio class driver TUSBAudio targets USB audio devices for professional and semi-professional use and highest quality audiophile HiFi systems. The driver supports devices which are compliant to the USB Audio 2.0 or USB Audio 1.0 device class specification. The driver provides an ASIO 2.3.1 compliant software interface and integrates with Windows as a standard WDM/DirectX compatible sound device. If the device provides MIDI features the driver exposes standard Windows MIDI ports.

To meet professional audio requirements, the audio class driver is optimized for low latency and low CPU load. Buffer depths can be adjusted by the user to optimize settings for a given computer. The driver implements a transparent (bit-perfect) playback and recording data path.


----------



## Smokeyjoecafe

I finally had a chance to compare my Ares ii/Cambridge Audio CXC and my Wadia 830 CD player.   I used same interconnects, Rollerblocks/super balls3 on Fat pads on stacked MDF platforms and Wadia on rollerblocks/super balls3 on Symposium Ultra platform.   I swapped platforms to remove the Ultra advantage.

1) Wadia had a bigger soundstage and more air around voices and instruments.
2) bass was equal between the two
3)  the Ares ii had clearer defined presentation (more tangible or solid) of the sound with less airy soundstage
4) Wadia was fuller sounding on complex music but the Ares ii presentation was not too far off
5) both were relaxed sounding 
6). I used NOS and slow slope filter on the Ares ii.

Honestly, I could live with either, but I’ve decided to keep the Ares ii in my main listening room and move the Wadia downstairs to my secondary system due to space considerations of the 2 box setup.


At the price of the Ares Ii, it’s quite an accomplished and refined product.  Also, thanks to Alvin for all his support.  You can’t go wrong with the Denafrips products and buy with confidence!


----------



## abvolt

I definitely need to try this dac been wanting an r2r for a long time..


----------



## Spareribs

Good stuff. I’ll probably get this DAC maybe in about 6 months


----------



## rascalion

Available on Drop.com - $770

https://drop.com/buy/denafrips-ares-ii-r2r-dac


----------



## HerrWallen

Any problems with DSD reported? Pops, noise etc?

I'm basically down to a choice between the Audio-GD R2R R-1 and this one but with all the reports about problems with DSD in the Audio-GD thread, I'm leaning towards the Ares ..


----------



## Vingard

Smokeyjoecafe said:


> I finally had a chance to compare my Ares ii/Cambridge Audio CXC and my Wadia 830 CD player.   I used same interconnects, Rollerblocks/super balls3 on Fat pads on stacked MDF platforms and Wadia on rollerblocks/super balls3 on Symposium Ultra platform.   I swapped platforms to remove the Ultra advantage.
> 
> 1) Wadia had a bigger soundstage and more air around voices and instruments.
> 2) bass was equal between the two
> ...



Did you ever get a chance to compare the Ares to the Qutest?  Curious to know how these two compare.


----------



## Smokeyjoecafe

Hi, sorry for the late reply.  I have not been able to get access to my friends Chord Qutest.  The other DAC I have is a Mojo but I don’t think it’s much value to compare.


----------



## attmci

abvolt said:


> I definitely need to try this dac been wanting an r2r for a long time..


*DENAFRIPS Terminator*?


----------



## DarkMatter1

Smokeyjoecafe said:


> Hi, sorry for the late reply.  I have not been able to get access to my friends Chord Qutest.  The other DAC I have is a Mojo but I don’t think it’s much value to compare.


Why not? I would love to hear a comparison.And in what areas is the Ares is better than Mojo.


----------



## abvolt

attmci said:


> *DENAFRIPS Terminator*?



Thanks I'll be looking at this one..


----------



## Smokeyjoecafe

So, today was the day to play around with my 2 DACs.  Ares Ii, and Chord Mojo. 

I’m using a custom silver wire USB cable between Mojo and MacBook Pro running Pure Music and Audio Sensibility copper cable between Mojo and Integrated amp.
I’m using a silver wire Audio Sensibility USB cable between MacBook Pro running Pure Music, the DAC is connected to the Integrated amp with Actinote Mesa interconnects.

For both tests, I need to switch amp inputs and swap in the iFi Audio iSilencer 3.0 USB EMI noise suppressor (only have 1). Also select USB output and restart Pure Music app.  Used non sample and non sharp cutoff filter

Sorry, it’s the best I can do as I don’t have all the same cables.

1) Bass - very similar, I was surprised about the Mojo performance, just a touch softer, maybe because midbass more pronounced
2) soundstage - Mojo smaller soundstage, less air between instruments and vocals.
3) piano - Mojo portrays it with less definition but with longer decay but sound more exaggerated than Ares Ii
4) vocals - Mojo, a bit larger but not as refined, much more forward

 Overall, the Ares ii is more a refined, a more natural sounding DAC which is also a bit more relaxed with a larger soundstage and being less forward than the Mojo.  I do prefer the Ares ii but the Mojo is also a headphone amp and portable.  If I had to assign a percentage, the Mojo is about 75 of the Ares ii.


----------



## displayname

Great feedback! Thanks for sharing.


----------



## Bonddam

I bought this dac from drop, wont be receiving till next month. I'm using Foobar. Is it easy to install the drivers because I had a pain in the ass time setting up foobar for dsd? I'd hate to go through that experience even though I forgot what I did to make it work.


----------



## Baten

Bonddam said:


> I bought this dac from drop, wont be receiving till next month. I'm using Foobar. Is it easy to install the drivers because I had a pain in the ass time setting up foobar for dsd? I'd hate to go through that experience even though I forgot what I did to make it work.


If you want DSD over foobar you would need to set it up again, yeah. Do you need DSD though...? Denafrips is a PCM DAC.


----------



## Bonddam

Baten said:


> If you want DSD over foobar you would need to set it up again, yeah. Do you need DSD though...? Denafrips is a PCM DAC.


I only have one album on DSD I could live without. I’m running this off Windows 10. I’d like to hook it up and do nothing, I’ve got the other Dac if I want to hear that album. So I’m guessing you asked if I really need DSD and answer is no. If I listen to that album it would just be converted to pcm I’m thinking. Would I need the drivers or not?


----------



## Baten

Bonddam said:


> I only have one album on DSD I could live without. I’m running this off Windows 10. I’d like to hook it up and do nothing, I’ve got the other Dac if I want to hear that album. So I’m guessing you asked if I really need DSD and answer is no. If I listen to that album it would just be converted to pcm I’m thinking. Would I need the drivers or not?


If you have updated windows/osx/linux it should just be plug and play without any issue! 
If you run something old like Windows 7 you'll definitely need the drivers.


----------



## Smokeyjoecafe

Bonddam said:


> I bought this dac from drop, wont be receiving till next month. I'm using Foobar. Is it easy to install the drivers because I had a pain in the ass time setting up foobar for dsd? I'd hate to go through that experience even though I forgot what I did to make it work.


The


Baten said:


> If you want DSD over foobar you would need to set it up again, yeah. Do you need DSD though...? Denafrips is a PCM DAC.




the DAC also does DSD.  I have a Mac so I’m not familiar with Foobar.


----------



## Baten

Smokeyjoecafe said:


> I have a Mac so I’m not familiar with Foobar.


Well I'm not familiar, I suppose you simply need software player that supports DSD.


----------



## Smokeyjoecafe

Yes, I believe so.  I use Pure Music.  I believe Roon would allow you to play DSD but don’t quote me on it..


----------



## snafu1 (Oct 3, 2019)

Can anyone give me some feedback on the sound quality when playing DSD (either 64 or 128) files on the Ares II (via USB)?
I ask after viewing a review of the HoloAudio Spring2 where the reviewer stated that DSD files were decoded differently on that R2R DAC and the result was a noticeable decrease in sound quality.
I'm hoping the Ares II doesn't have a similar attribute.


----------



## MrPanda

Smokeyjoecafe said:


> Yes, I believe so.  I use Pure Music.  I believe Roon would allow you to play DSD but don’t quote me on it..


It does, and has on-the-fly conversion to PCM formats if needed


----------



## Lord Rexter

Also it might be helpful to get some impressions on how it stacks up against the Soekris 1541 DAC. Appreciate if anyone can share their experience.


----------



## Narcissus

HerrWallen said:


> Also, I have been looking for a stand-alone dac and is currently beeing torn between this, the Soekris 1541 and the .....preferably with a slight musical "tint".





Lord Rexter said:


> Also it might be helpful to get some impressions on how it stacks up against the Soekris 1541 DAC. Appreciate if anyone can share their experience.



It would be great if someone could chime in on the Ares II vs Soekris 1541, the Toroidal on the Ares looks robust but the lack of an onboard preamp is discouraging for me as I would've preferred to drive my (fully balanced) amps directly with the Ares, I believe that can be done with the Soekris 1541. Then again the valuation of the Ares is attractive at $500 less than the 1541.
Any good fully balanced preamp suggestions guys, What is everyone using to drive their Ares II?


----------



## jb77 (Oct 15, 2019)

Smokeyjoecafe said:


> I’ll be comparing to my friend's chord Qutest.





Smokeyjoecafe said:


> Hi, sorry for the late reply.  I have not been able to get access to my friends Chord Qutest.  The other DAC I have is a Mojo but I don’t think it’s much value to compare.



Would be interested to hear you thoughts/comparisons between the Ares II and your friends Chord Qutest, if you ever get a chance to listen to your friends Qutest.


----------



## vincent410

Smokeyjoecafe said:


> Hi, sorry for the late reply.  I have not been able to get access to my friends Chord Qutest.  The other DAC I have is a Mojo but I don’t think it’s much value to compare.


i also look forward to your comparison between Qutest & this Ares 2


----------



## Bonddam (Oct 22, 2019)

Just received my Ares 2 and like what I'm hearing. A lot of detail. It sounds bright at least I think it's brighter then my SMSL d1. It's probably just increase in detail that's tricking my brain. I most be to adjusted to the D1. Listening to dubstep on my V281 with Verite open. I gotta test Tool's new album.


----------



## snafu1

Bonddam said:


> Just received my Ares 2 and like what I'm hearing. A lot of detail. It sounds bright at least I think it's brighter then my SMSL d1. It's probably just increase in detail that's tricking my brain. I most be to adjusted to the D1. Listening to dubstep on my V281 with Verite open. I gotta test Tool's new album.



I received my Ares II just a couple of weeks ago. I'm very happy with it. I noticed better bass and slightly wider soundstage. A more "musical" sound that's a pleasure to listen to. 
I'm using the USB input from a Roonlabs Rock and listening to mostly jazz.


----------



## Nickol (Oct 25, 2019)

Smokeyjoecafe said:


> Hi, sorry for the late reply. I have not been able to get access to my friends Chord Qutest. The other DAC I have is a Mojo but I don’t think it’s much value to compare.



I would be so grateful for such a comparison (with Mojo, and with Qutest, if it possible)...


----------



## Nickol

Narcissus said:


> Any good fully balanced preamp suggestions guys, What is everyone using to drive their Ares II?


I use it with Violectric V200


----------



## Sound Eq

is there any comparison between ares to hugo2 or qutest


----------



## Chik0240

So I am puzzled, does anyone know the original ares is equivalent to what OS mode in the II? and anyone can comment what setting is more neutral


----------



## Sound Eq

Sound Eq said:


> is there any comparison between ares to hugo2 or qutest


any help to the above


----------



## asebastian0

A note for those who are using the Ares II on a mac with JRiver:

If the red light for DSD is showing up above the "8x" button instead of the "DSD" button and the DSD playback sounds veiled, generally unbalanced. Setting this option fixed the DSD indicator light and sound quality issues:

- Tools -> Options -> Audio -> Bitstreaming -> Yes (DSD)

I also enabled integer mode but it's not clear whether this is actually doing anything when playing a DSD file.

I've tried DSD 1x and 2x files with the new settings and the Ares II sounds great now. This might be obvious to some but I'm used to standalone sources with minimal or no configuration options.


----------



## matti55

Just got this dac, wanted to try R2R. Really liking it so far. I have a couple of noob questions regarding volume control.

I have it plugged in with USB, and so far have tested it with a Gilmore Lite MK2 as well as a JDS Atom, and I'm very surprised at how low I need set the amp volume for the sound to not be unbearably loud. With the Atom, on low gain, setting the volume know to 7/8 o clock is plenty loud, and anything at 12+ is way too loud. Same story with the Gilmore. As far as I can tell there's no way to lower the volume via the USB connection and supposedly this is by design to achieve optimal sound quality.

So I'm wondering if this is to be expected. Is there anything I can do to comfortably get more granularity for the amp volume control? I'm currently using the Auteur (300 ohm impedance), so I'm guessing this will be even more exaggerated on a lower impedance headphone?


----------



## Bonddam

matti55 said:


> Just got this dac, wanted to try R2R. Really liking it so far. I have a couple of noob questions regarding volume control.
> 
> I have it plugged in with USB, and so far have tested it with a Gilmore Lite MK2 as well as a JDS Atom, and I'm very surprised at how low I need set the amp volume for the sound to not be unbearably loud. With the Atom, on low gain, setting the volume know to 7/8 o clock is plenty loud, and anything at 12+ is way too loud. Same story with the Gilmore. As far as I can tell there's no way to lower the volume via the USB connection and supposedly this is by design to achieve optimal sound quality.
> 
> So I'm wondering if this is to be expected. Is there anything I can do to comfortably get more granularity for the amp volume control? I'm currently using the Auteur (300 ohm impedance), so I'm guessing this will be even more exaggerated on a lower impedance headphone?


I'm in different boat I get great volume control out of the gsx-mini. 9 oclock is nice low volume high around 1 oclock.


----------



## funkle II

A question for people who have bought this DAC: I notice there are resellers in the US and on eBay selling this DAC for 800-1000. But it is possible to purchase direct from the official distributor vinshineaudio in Singapore for around $760 (depending on the exchange rate at that moment). Even used examples are selling for more. Is there a reason to avoid vinshine, or are people unaware of this option?


----------



## Bonddam

I bought mine on drop for about 870 after tax.


----------



## snafu1

funkle II said:


> A question for people who have bought this DAC: I notice there are resellers in the US and on eBay selling this DAC for 800-1000. But it is possible to purchase direct from the official distributor vinshineaudio in Singapore for around $760 (depending on the exchange rate at that moment). Even used examples are selling for more. Is there a reason to avoid vinshine, or are people unaware of this option?



That's strange that used ones are selling for more.
No, there's no reason to avoid vinshineaudio. I've read many posts from Alvin of vinshineaudio and he has been very helpful. I've also read posts from other customers who mentioned very good things about Alvin. My purchase from them was shipped promptly and I received it in good condition.

The only thing that would I would think twice about is their policy of no returns. Once you bought it, it's yours (except for manufacturer defects). I wish they allowed a period of when you could return it. It's such an awesome DAC, I can't see returns of unsatisfied customers being a potential issue.


----------



## Lord Rexter

Well I think Denafrips Ares II was on Drop (perviously Massdrop) for $800ish I had missed that so I bought mine from Amazon USA for around $850 including tax. (https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B07TNJ548L) so you might want to get in touch with the seller to work out a deal, they are super helpful. The DAC comes with one year warranty just that you know.


----------



## snafu1

Lord Rexter said:


> Well I think Denafrips Ares II was on Drop (perviously Massdrop) for $800ish I had missed that so I bought mine from Amazon USA for around $850 including tax. (https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B07TNJ548L) so you might want to get in touch with the seller to work out a deal, they are super helpful. The DAC comes with one year warranty just that you know.



I don't know about the Amazon seller, but vineshineaudio is the only authorized reseller and they offer a 3 year warranty, not 1 year like the other seller.


----------



## Bonddam

Even though your saving money on Amazon there’s something about it I don’t trust. The other thing is ship arrival date for the Terminator was feb-March. That’s just like buying it on drop.


----------



## Lord Rexter

snafu1 said:


> I don't know about the Amazon seller, but vineshineaudio is the only authorized reseller and they offer a 3 year warranty, not 1 year like the other seller.


My bad I just checked it's 36 months of warranty, thank you for pointing it out


----------



## willsw

funkle II said:


> A question for people who have bought this DAC: I notice there are resellers in the US and on eBay selling this DAC for 800-1000. But it is possible to purchase direct from the official distributor vinshineaudio in Singapore for around $760 (depending on the exchange rate at that moment). Even used examples are selling for more. Is there a reason to avoid vinshine, or are people unaware of this option?



I've had a lot of experience dealing with Alvin from Vinshine, including purchasing and dealing with warranties, and have always had excellent experiences and quick shipping. I'd recommend ordering directly from Vinshine over anything else.


----------



## tvr2500m

funkle II said:


> A question for people who have bought this DAC: I notice there are resellers in the US and on eBay selling this DAC for 800-1000. But it is possible to purchase direct from the official distributor vinshineaudio in Singapore for around $760 (depending on the exchange rate at that moment). Even used examples are selling for more. Is there a reason to avoid vinshine, or are people unaware of this option?



I got mine from Vinshine. The purchase experience was excellent. Alvin was great. The Ares II is great. Amazing the performance that can be had for the money today. It wasn't always like this.

Kudos, too, to Apos Audio. Got an SMSL SP200 THX AAA-888 from them. Another excellent purchase and support experience.


----------



## alvin1118

Hello guys,

Thank you for the support! Please note the gray market clarification here:

https://www.denafrips.com/single-post/2019/07/27/Warning-Grey-Market-Products

Please choose wisely 

Many thanks.

Yours sincerely, 
Alvin


----------



## funkle II

alvin1118 said:


> Hello guys,
> 
> Thank you for the support! Please note the gray market clarification here:
> 
> ...



All the more reason to buy from the source. I wonder how many potential US buyers go to the vinshine site and mistake Singapore $ for US$. I would have done the same if I had not heard it mentioned in the audiopheliac review.


----------



## snafu1

funkle II said:


> All the more reason to buy from the source. I wonder how many potential US buyers go to the vinshine site and mistake Singapore $ for US$. I would have done the same if I had not heard it mentioned in the audiopheliac review.



That fooled me the first time I visited the website. I thought, why is so much more expensive? Maybe it's due to the new tariffs? 
Eventually I noticed it was in Singapore dollars.


----------



## Bonddam

What is the US price no discount?


----------



## snafu1

Bonddam said:


> What is the US price no discount?



$768 USD.
The shop homepage shows the US price now at the bottom of the page.
https://www.vinshineaudio.com/shop


----------



## Mataugust

I exchanded my Marantz HD-DAC1 for this Ares. I'ts definately different, not shure if it's better. But I wanted to spend som time with a NOS dac..
I'm happy about it, and has no plan to change dac in near future.


----------



## Bonddam

Thinking about getting either the Terminator or Hugo tt 2. Does anyone have experience with those two.


----------



## HerrWallen

Mataugust said:


> I exchanded my Marantz HD-DAC1 for this Ares.



Would love to hear some comparisons when you have had some time with the Ares. 
I'm rather fond of my HD-Dac1 but have been thinking about trying either the Ares or the Bitfrost2


----------



## Mataugust

HerrWallen said:


> Would love to hear some comparisons when you have had some time with the Ares.
> I'm rather fond of my HD-Dac1 but have been thinking about trying either the Ares or the Bitfrost2



I did the switch about a year ago, and I hardly remember the difference. 
I did it because i, for a period, upsamled all my music to 192000 using SoX in Foobar. When I gave up that upsampling, the sound seemed more relaxed, somehow, so i thougt i should try a nos dac.
Ares sound more relaxed than DAC1, at least i think so, but sometimes I'm not sure if I could hear that difference in a blind test.
Anyway, I'm happy about the Ares, and just knowing, that I have something that is just a dac.


----------



## funkle II

One just sold here used for $900. There are open boxes at US audio mart for 900, and recent sales on eBay for 900+ used. This is just silly. *You can get these new, direct from vinshine for $788US*


----------



## funkle II

alvin1118 said:


> Hello guys,
> 
> Thank you for the support! Please note the gray market clarification here:
> 
> ...



Alvin, do you know if there will be any price increases in the near future?


----------



## protoss

Bonddam said:


> Thinking about getting either the Terminator or Hugo tt 2. Does anyone have experience with those two.




or '


----------



## protoss

@Bonddam 
What I want to know is your comparison of HeadAmp GSX-mini  vs  THX AAA 789 is?  How much better ....


----------



## Bonddam

protoss said:


> @Bonddam
> What I want to know is your comparison of HeadAmp GSX-mini  vs  THX AAA 789 is?  How much better ....


I dont know a thing about thx 789 i sold it new.


----------



## Bonddam

I thinking about the Terminator but decided because of its size it would take up too much. The Ares 2 with the gsx mini makes me super happy with my 1266 and lcd 4. I'm planning on selling my other headphones as the two mentioned check each box.


----------



## protoss

Bonddam said:


> I dont know a thing about thx 789 i sold it new.



lol.


----------



## Spidermanxd

funkle II said:


> One just sold here used for $900. There are open boxes at US audio mart for 900, and recent sales on eBay for 900+ used. This is just silly. *You can get these new, direct from vinshine for $788US*


Yes but 4-6;weeks backordered


----------



## alvin1118

Spidermanxd said:


> Yes but 4-6;weeks backordered



Hmmm, nope. 6-8 weeks now. Despite the long wait time, DENAFRIPS DACs are still selling fast like hot cake.

A happy business problem 

Happy Holidays!

Yours sincerely,
Alvin Chee 
Owner of Vinshine Audio


----------



## Spidermanxd

alvin1118 said:


> Hmmm, nope. 6-8 weeks now. Despite the long wait time, DENAFRIPS DACs are still selling fast like hot cake.
> 
> A happy business problem
> 
> ...


It is made in China, are they short on staff or something,


----------



## BreadMaster

Spidermanxd said:


> It is made in China, are they short on staff or something,


It’s made in North Korea


----------



## funkle II

alvin1118 said:


> Hmmm, nope. 6-8 weeks now. Despite the long wait time, DENAFRIPS DACs are still selling fast like hot cake.
> 
> A happy business problem
> 
> ...



@alvin1118 do you charge the credit card when the order is placed, or when the item ships?


----------



## alvin1118

Happy New Year! Wish you good health, happiness, and success in the new year!


----------



## Celty

ASR has a review of the Ares II DAC up. Assumptions of many to the contrary, it actually did quite well.


----------



## Spareribs

The transformer inside looks gorgeous


----------



## Nickol (Feb 10, 2020)

Hello, everybody

Tell me exactly how the ARES 2 reproduces the native DSD? Directly? What is the mechanism? Or is there an oversampling in PCM? (if FIR filters are used, then it means that there is an oversampling in PCM). Is not it so?

The second question: switching to the NOS mode - is this exactly the mode without any oversampling and sampling?

These questions are also to the representative of Denafrips.


----------



## Baten

Nickol said:


> The second question: switching to the NOS mode - is this exactly the mode without any oversampling and sampling?



Yes, that is the definition of NOS... it's exactly like that.


----------



## Sean H

HerrWallen said:


> Would love to hear some comparisons when you have had some time with the Ares.
> I'm rather fond of my HD-Dac1 but have been thinking about trying either the Ares or the Bitfrost2



These are the two DAC's I've been considering as well and I decided to give the Bifrost 2 a try and will receive it today. Read so many great things about the new version and I have to admit the 6-8 week wait makes me leery. Like you I like my current DAC as well but it's a delta sigma DAC and hoping a ladder DAC is going to beat it and sound more musical and engaging. Guess I'll find out soon.


----------



## daytrader

Hello Alvin,
Do to this horrible virus going around the globe is there any related impact on production and deliverable times for the Denafrips products?  Unfortunately it seems to be most concentrated in Asia where a lot of these products are being produced along with yours.  If you can update us on ETAs that would be great.  And most of all, hoping this virus comes to and end soon and no longer is a threat to humanity.


----------



## .Sup

What kind of usb solution is this, anyone know?

Proprietary USB Audio Solution via STM32F446 Advanced AMR Based MCU
Its probably not Amanero and Xmos level right? I am looking for an R2R dac with a good usb input, I really don't wanna get any add-on usb to spdif converters.


----------



## Baten

.Sup said:


> Its probably not Amanero and Xmos level right? I am looking for an R2R dac with a good usb input, I really don't wanna get any add-on usb to spdif converters.



It's custom implementation over micro-processor


----------



## spruce (Mar 3, 2020)

I’m really interested in purchasing the Ares II but am looking for comparisons to other DACS such as the Qutest and iDSD Black Label (dac only). From what I’ve researched it sounds like the ARES II has a more natural sound while speed and details are sacrificed? Thanks.


----------



## Relaxasaurus

Has anyone bought this on AliExpress? They seem to be the only ones to have them in stock.


----------



## alvin1118

Relaxasaurus said:


> Has anyone bought this on AliExpress? They seem to be the only ones to have them in stock.



https://www.denafrips.com/single-post/2019/07/27/Warning-Grey-Market-Products


----------



## Relaxasaurus

alvin1118 said:


> https://www.denafrips.com/single-post/2019/07/27/Warning-Grey-Market-Products


I'm happy to buy from Vinshine but the 3 month waiting period (may be longer) is something to take into consideration. If it was the Terminator I'd hold out for the warranty, but for the Ares II it may be worth the risk.


----------



## daytrader

Relaxasaurus said:


> I'm happy to buy from Vinshine but the 3 month waiting period (may be longer) is something to take into consideration. If it was the Terminator I'd hold out for the warranty, but for the Ares II it may be worth the risk.



I would wait till they all go back online from the distributor Vinshine Audio, especially if you are ordering out of country, to get the best possible product updates and customer repair service.  

If one is going to consider taking a chance with a gray market Ares II, the downside being almost $800, I’d rather suggest spend $120 now on something that is at least re-sellable on the used market, products like a iFI Zen dac(or others - there are many good temporary cheap options out there) and get something back for your money when sold as used, while you wait for Denafrips to come back online. 
Why take a chance and buy gray market and be out $800 if your unit is defective?  Makes no sense to me!


----------



## Relaxasaurus

daytrader said:


> I would wait till they all go back online from the distributor Vinshine Audio, especially if you are ordering out of country, to get the best possible product updates and customer repair service.
> 
> If one is going to consider taking a chance with a gray market Ares II, the downside being almost $800, I’d rather suggest spend $120 now on something that is at least re-sellable on the used market, products like a iFI Zen dac(or others - there are many good temporary cheap options out there) and get something back for your money when sold as used, while you wait for Denafrips to come back online.
> Why take a chance and buy gray market and be out $800 if your unit is defective?  Makes no sense to me!


Fair point. I've bought grey market watches years ago with zero issue, but maybe I just like rolling the dice :] Looks like AliExpress provides 2-months of buyer's protection but I can see how much it would suck if the unit failed on month 11


----------



## vlach (Mar 18, 2020)

Deleted


----------



## ProLoL

How's the ares 2 compares to the soekris dac1541?


----------



## Baten

ProLoL said:


> How's the ares 2 compares to the soekris dac1541?


on paper as a DAC, the ares 2 looks simply better. the top line soekris also has headphone output though.


----------



## ProLoL

Baten said:


> on paper as a DAC, the ares 2 looks simply better. the top line soekris also has headphone output though.



Thanks for the response though I meant sound wise.. don't care about measurements or features. 
I had the soekris dac1321 which I couldn't bare as a stand alone dac but with the U16 it was godlike.
I want to know if the ares 2 is able to compete with the dac1541 resolution wise.


----------



## Nickol

How good is USB in an ARES II ?


----------



## ChrisR1

Have any Ares II owners noticed a burn-in period initially? If so, can you maybe describe a little the sonic evolution during that period? Many Thanks!


----------



## alvin1118

Hello guys,

It has been a busy week! We shipped some 150 pieces of DAC this week alone.
The lead time of the Ares II is shorter now, approx 3-4 weeks to ship. We have good inventory of 500 units are being assembled.







Please take good care, stay safe and stay healthy in this climate!

Best,
Alvin Chee
www.vinshineaudio.com


p/s: I recommend keeping the DAC on 24/7 for best sound.


----------



## ChrisR1 (Apr 9, 2020)

Nickol said:


> How good is USB in an ARES II ?



I'm using USB to stream from Qobuz and am very pleased with the SQ and performance in all ways.  Using Audioquest Cinnamon cable to carry the data from my computer to the ARES II DAC.


----------



## godmax

alvin1118 said:


> p/s: I recommend keeping the DAC on 24/7 for best sound.


...if it just wouldn't consume 4W in stand-by (in comparison only 8W in on state).


----------



## Nickol

Hey, guys!

Who how prefers to listen - NOS or OS?

And do you hear any differences (and what are these differences expressed?) between the filters Sharp / Slow?


----------



## Baten

Nickol said:


> Hey, guys!
> 
> Who how prefers to listen - NOS or OS?
> 
> And do you hear any differences (and what are these differences expressed?) between the filters Sharp / Slow?


The default is OS I think many leave it on the default

NOS rolls of the high frequencies a bit, some people like that but I believe they are more of a minority


----------



## Nickol

Sharp or Slow ? What do you prefer?

Who hears the difference between them?

And what is it?


----------



## Baten

Nickol said:


> Sharp or Slow ? What do you prefer?
> 
> Who hears the difference between them?
> 
> And what is it?


This is a good resource
http://archimago.blogspot.com/2013/06/measurements-digital-filters-and.html?m=1

Sharp is the 'best'


----------



## ProLoL

This guy claims NOS to be better and more detailed than the OS,



This guy too,


----------



## Baten

ProLoL said:


> This guy claims NOS to be better and more detailed than the OS,
> 
> 
> 
> This guy too,



More _detailed_? I call BS on that. That's not how NOS works


----------



## ProLoL

Baten said:


> More _detailed_? I call BS on that. That's not how NOS works



Yea I know, NOS should have a treble roll off, some of them still sound bright asf.


----------



## daytrader (Apr 10, 2020)

I got this from Alvin, “Good morning. I prefer NOS most of the time. If I listen to rock music, I use OS and slow filters.”

As from my own experience, I would suggest trying the settings one at a time, first the NOS then OS and see what you like based on the type of music you listen to.  Then select the filters to adjust for system corrections.  Folks get so hung up what others prefer, but music and systems differ so what works for you might not be dialed in for someone else.  Be thankful companies like Denafrips offer these listening options.

I’m pretty sure any selected setting combo position will not produce anything that sounds terrible and likely not make much auditable difference for some systems unless your system is highly resolving.  Many YouTube reviews say little to no difference but some seems to think it does. So I’m guessing it’s highly system depended as I said.

I’ll be posting a review soon here on the site as soon as this “stay in place” thing is over and I can get some audio buddies over for a group listen and evaluation consensus. 

Till then my many thanks to Alvin of Vinshine Audio.

Dean


----------



## alvin1118

Now that we have a lot of time staying at home, it's a good ideal to try different configuration to hear the differences


----------



## ChrisR1

IMHO, NOS is best for acoustic/classical.  It does seem more detailed/natural.  In my system, rock/electronic/jazz or anything else with strong percussion can be more enjoyable and less fatiguing for longer listening with OS and slow filter. In agreement with Alvin here.  It's a little more relaxed, less percussive "punch."  The trade-off is a slightly less "realistic" sound, and slightly less open/less wide sound-stage.  But for the genres that benefit most from OS/slow filter, soundstage is not the priority that it would be for classical, for example.

The difference between NOS and OS is not tremendous but is definitely there if your system has the resolution to bring this out. 

Listening to "Wax Tailor" with the OS/slow filter as I type and it is a nice way to make the listening session a little more chill.   However, if your drink is stiff enough, keeping it in NOS might not bug you


----------



## sajunky (Apr 15, 2020)

ChrisR1 said:


> IMHO, NOS is best for acoustic/classical.  It does seem more detailed/natural.  In my system, rock/electronic/jazz or anything else with strong percussion can be more enjoyable and less fatiguing for longer listening with OS and slow filter. In agreement with Alvin here.  *It's a little more relaxed, less percussive "punch."  The trade-off is a slightly less "realistic" sound*, and slightly less open/less wide sound-stage.  But for the genres that benefit most from OS/slow filter, soundstage is not the priority that it would be for classical, for example.
> 
> The difference between NOS and OS is not tremendous but is definitely there if your system has the resolution to bring this out.
> 
> Listening to "Wax Tailor" with the OS/slow filter as I type and it is a nice way to make the listening session a little more chill.   However, if your drink is stiff enough, keeping it in NOS might not bug you


In NOS there is definitely less expressive 'punch', but I wouldn't call it less realistic, just in reverse. Other than that I fully agree with. I own Audio GD R2R11, so I can only compare with the upsampled material in Foobar2000 with SoX. There is very little difference with a quality upsampling, I may be wrong. This recording I downloaded to assess some previous post, percussion sounds very impressive: https://www.discogs.com/Ahmad-Jamal...ve-At-The-Olympia-June-272012/release/6828962


----------



## Nickol

... When Alvin says he prefers NOS, let's don't forget that the Terminator NOS is not the same as the Ares NOS....


----------



## daytrader (Apr 16, 2020)

Nickol said:


> ... When Alvin says he prefers NOS, let's don't forget that the Terminator NOS is not the same as the Ares NOS....


Yes, his recommendation was addressing my question in reference to the new Ares II.


----------



## alvin1118

I use Ares II -> Kinki Studio THR-1 -> HD6xx 
My daily tool now to listen to the news in the day time.


----------



## Baten

alvin1118 said:


> I use Ares II -> Kinki Studio THR-1 -> HD6xx
> My daily tool now to listen to the news in the day time.


lol must be a great set-up for audiobooks and the news


----------



## Nickol

alvin1118 said:


> I use Ares II -> Kinki Studio THR-1 -> HD6xx


Sorry, I thought that you use Terminator and talking about it


----------



## Pharmaboy

alvin1118 said:


> I use Ares II -> Kinki Studio THR-1 -> HD6xx
> My daily tool now to listen to the news in the day time.



All that bad news must sound pretty good!


----------



## VintageAudio

Ordered my Ares II on Mar 23 and just received it today!

1st impressions vs the RME ADI-2 DAC?  It has a more expansive and enveloping sound stage - seems warmer and smoother.  Overall, very pleasing.  Still need more testing, but happy it arrived ahead of schedule


----------



## alvin1118

Yep, we are shipping dozens of Ares II. We expect to ship some 50 units next week. 
That being said, the leadtime will be much shorter then 

Enjoy! 

Stay safe,
Alvin
www.vinshineaudio.com


----------



## Relaxasaurus

VintageAudio said:


> Ordered my Ares II on Mar 23 and just received it today!
> 
> 1st impressions vs the RME ADI-2 DAC?  It has a more expansive and enveloping sound stage - seems warmer and smoother.  Overall, very pleasing.  Still need more testing, but happy it arrived ahead of schedule


Great to hear! I have an ADI-2 as well and am on the fence on getting this. Do you find the Ares a compliment to the RME or do you seeing it as replacing it entirely?


----------



## godmax

Relaxasaurus said:


> Great to hear! I have an ADI-2 as well and am on the fence on getting this. Do you find the Ares a compliment to the RME or do you seeing it as replacing it entirely?


As a owner of both DACs, I would say the Ares II is at least an complementary device, as in all audio related gear, its dependent on mood, music and headphone pairing.
But I see the far more expansive and engaging soundstage as one of the most advantageous qualities of the Ares II. The RME has his advantages in features and admirable VU meter.


----------



## VintageAudio

Relaxasaurus said:


> Great to hear! I have an ADI-2 as well and am on the fence on getting this. Do you find the Ares a compliment to the RME or do you seeing it as replacing it entirely?



I'll provide more thoughts when I've properly A/B'd.  I definitely like its sound more than the RME, but the RME has other major advantages with all its configurability, meters etc.  For now its going to be a compliment for me as I like to tinker around with the sound and with both, I have 2 options.

I just watched Josh Valour's latest video on the Monoprice THX Dac - you should give it a watch.  In it, he does a sound demo for Dirac Sensaround option on and off.  If I were to describe the difference between the Ares II and the RME, it'd be like switching on/off Dirac Sensaround.  It alters the soundstage and imaging so that sounds from primarly on the sides get stretched out.  Vocals more in front and instruments a little more segregated and back slightly.

I wonder if that's what the ARES II is doing inside.  It sounds very much like that.  The ARES II also has a smoothness to it that I like which doesn't sacrifice detail.

Still waiting for my XLR switchbox to arrive so I can do comparisons easier.


----------



## Baten

VintageAudio said:


> Still waiting for my XLR switchbox to arrive so I can do comparisons easier.


Make sure to match volume well, slight volume imbalance makes comparisons difficult


----------



## daytrader

VintageAudio said:


> I'll provide more thoughts when I've properly A/B'd.  I definitely like its sound more than the RME, but the RME has other major advantages with all its configurability, meters etc.  For now its going to be a compliment for me as I like to tinker around with the sound and with both, I have 2 options.
> 
> I just watched Josh Valour's latest video on the Monoprice THX Dac - you should give it a watch.  In it, he does a sound demo for Dirac Sensaround option on and off.  If I were to describe the difference between the Ares II and the RME, it'd be like switching on/off Dirac Sensaround.  It alters the soundstage and imaging so that sounds from primarly on the sides get stretched out.  Vocals more in front and instruments a little more segregated and back slightly.
> 
> ...


Are you using the Ares II out of the box with factory settings or have you started to play with the sampling and filter?


----------



## VintageAudio

daytrader said:


> Are you using the Ares II out of the box with factory settings or have you started to play with the sampling and filter?



I'm using it with NOS and slow filter.  Subjectively, they seem to have the most pleasing sound to me.  When I initially listened to the Ares II, I noticed a dramatic difference between in the sound from the ADi-2 on my Susvara's.  Overtime, I guess my brain has gotten used to the sound - I find it harder to immediately distinguish when flipping back and forth between dacs.

On the ADi-2 I also have the filter set to slow..seems to add a bit of warmth and a more natural, gradually reverberating decay.


----------



## alexl993

VintageAudio said:


> I'm using it with NOS and slow filter.  Subjectively, they seem to have the most pleasing sound to me.  When I initially listened to the Ares II, I noticed a dramatic difference between in the sound from the ADi-2 on my Susvara's.  Overtime, I guess my brain has gotten used to the sound - I find it harder to immediately distinguish when flipping back and forth between dacs.
> 
> On the ADi-2 I also have the filter set to slow..seems to add a bit of warmth and a more natural, gradually reverberating decay.



Does changing the oversampling mode make a difference for you:  ???


----------



## VintageAudio

alexl993 said:


> Does changing the oversampling mode make a difference for you:  ???




My bad - I mean I'm running it in OS + Slow filter mode.  NOS + slow is not possible


----------



## daytrader (Apr 23, 2020)

With my Stax setup, L700/007tll, I have found NOS to sound best with most music, sourced music is from Tidal Hi Rez delivered on my iPhone.  I’d like to hear from others if they are using the Ares ll within a headphone system and hear what they think about the different setting positions?  I’m going to assume when paired within a home audio system I’m sure it’s likely a different presentation vs ear speakers which I haven’t  tried it so I won’t comment.


----------



## Relaxasaurus

I know it's a different DAC but FWIW I keep NOS on almost exclusively with the RME ADI-2 unless I feel I want more "sparkle" in the higher frequencies with some songs/HP pairings. NOS to my ears is very smooth and just pleasing to hear most of the time.


----------



## sajunky (Apr 23, 2020)

It looks like Ares II do not have a proper 2nd order (at least) analog filter on the output, so NOS modes will carry a lot of ultrasonic noise. Amir in his tests didn't do proper wideband FFT plot, but he attached the following unconventional THD plot in response to the requests for testing NOS mode, it was in order to scare people.





The output filter looks very similar to the Audio GD R2R11, but here the output stage is made of non-feedback discrete amplifier. Denafrips don't give any details. If they use opamps, NOS mode will be affected negatively.

Other than that, I have no other option on R2R11 and it sounds fantastic. I tried upsampling 44.1kHz x4 in Foobar+SoX. The original 96/192kHz material sounds better, but for the upsampling I haven't made my mind yet.
Others with R1/R28 prefer 8xNOS for a modern top100 hitlist. For classic/jazz and all type of classical instruments NOS is prefered by many.


----------



## Nickol

sajunky said:


> It looks like Ares II do not have a proper 2nd order (at least) analog filter on the output, so NOS modes will carry a lot of ultrasonic noise.



Poorly .... Then a sad picture ...
NOS mode needs a good quality analog filter. It is a pity that Denafrips did not do this...(((


----------



## Sapientiam

What commercial NOS DAC has a sufficiently steep analog filter? I don't know of one that could keep the THD+N reading below 0.1% at all frequencies to 20kHz.


----------



## sajunky (Apr 24, 2020)

True. And Denafrips should stop paying ASR for testing. He wrote on the beginning that the unit was supplied by the manufacturer, then he called it off saying it was a mistake and unit was supplied by the un-named member of ASR. I don't believe it was a mistake. Measurements look good unlike the other Amir tests of R2R DACs which came a surprise, but a critical wideband FFT plot is missing, perhaps in purpose, a typical manipulations found in other tests. He always tries to bend results to match his agenda. Then something turned away 180 degrees and this mischievous things came up.

I think we should stop talk about ASR (my bad, sorry) and focus on what people have to say.

[EDIT] I'd like to hear from Denafrips about design of the output stage.


----------



## Nickol

Who knows, the *Audio GD R28* has a good analog output filter in the NOS mode ?
Or is it not implemented there either?


----------



## Nickol

I found information in the description *Audio GD R28* , which seems to have


----------



## sajunky (Apr 24, 2020)

Nickol said:


> Who knows, the *Audio GD R28* has a good analog output filter in the NOS mode ?
> Or is it not implemented there either?


The analog filter stays the same in all modes (OS and NOS). It doesn't makes sense to make it switchable. It would be very difficult anyway, by example in cases when a filter is placed before I/V conversion.

I can answer your question regarding A-GD R2R11. It will be probably the same with R1 and R28. From the wide-band noise FFT plot on the ASR can quess that it is the same first-order (6dB/Oct) filter as on the Ares II. The same first-order filter is also present in a new Holo May. I am attaching a May graph, as it shows all OS, NOS ad DSD modes on the same plot.

A scale is different as a sampling rate, but you should be able to pickup that it is the same filter. A wide-band THD plot for Ares II is made by Amir for a malicious reason. Any electronic engineer knows that even the best testing equipment will display wrong results when testing THD in a presence of so much wide-band noise. This is what I wanted to say in my first post.

My main question is not about the filter (as I knew it was very common), but how the Ares II output stage is designed. Hope we get some answers from Denafrips soon. And of course I am very interested in a listening comparison of Ares II and A-GD R1 in NOS mode as requested by other members.


----------



## VintageAudio

VintageAudio said:


> I'll provide more thoughts when I've properly A/B'd.  I definitely like its sound more than the RME, but the RME has other major advantages with all its configurability, meters etc.  For now its going to be a compliment for me as I like to tinker around with the sound and with both, I have 2 options.
> 
> I just watched Josh Valour's latest video on the Monoprice THX Dac - you should give it a watch.  In it, he does a sound demo for Dirac Sensaround option on and off.  If I were to describe the difference between the Ares II and the RME, it'd be like switching on/off Dirac Sensaround.  It alters the soundstage and imaging so that sounds from primarly on the sides get stretched out.  Vocals more in front and instruments a little more segregated and back slightly.
> 
> ...



Ok, switch box finally arrived to allow me to more fairly compare the ARES II and ADI-2.  In summary, the differences are extremely subtle.  Outside of a shift in the soundstage between the 2, there is no difference.  Sound quality is the same.

Between DACs I used to hear more significant differences between them, when listening to them with their native amps.  Some were warmer, others sharper, others more sibilant, more detailed etc.

Ever since I got my THX AAA 789, I have a much harder time telling DACs apart.  This leads me to 2 ideas.  The THX homogenizes sound, makes everything sound similar...or the coloration/differences in the DACS I used to notice was mainly due to the coloration in the built in pre-amps/amps in the DAC.

From my own experiences, its seems like the biggest impact you can make on your sound (assuming the same digital file), is the quality of your headphones, next your amp and 3rd the DAC.

Unless you are A/Bing, I don't think the differences between the ADI-2 and ARES II matter so much.  There's a change in sound stage for sure, but this comes down to taste and also for some songs, you won't even notice the sound stage shift.  For some songs, they sound better with the tighter sound stage that the ADI-2 has.

So from a sound quality perspective, I'd say both DACS are equal.  With the ADI-2 you gains some benefits from the other features - mainly the configurability and cool display.

My Susvaras are end game cans, time to shop for an end game AMP and I'll live with both of these DACS.


----------



## Relaxasaurus

VintageAudio said:


> Ok, switch box finally arrived to allow me to more fairly compare the ARES II and ADI-2.  In summary, the differences are extremely subtle.  Outside of a shift in the soundstage between the 2, there is no difference.  Sound quality is the same.
> 
> Between DACs I used to hear more significant differences between them, when listening to them with their native amps.  Some were warmer, others sharper, others more sibilant, more detailed etc.
> 
> ...


Great summation, thanks for posting this. Honest question though- since they sound so similar what's the point of having both DACs, or more than one DAC in general? Seems like it would be a wiring nightmare, especially with multiple amps.


----------



## ActuallySparky

VintageAudio said:


> ...
> Ever since I got my THX AAA 789, I have a much harder time telling DACs apart.  This leads me to 2 ideas.  The THX homogenizes sound, makes everything sound similar...or the coloration/differences in the DACS I used to notice was mainly due to the coloration in the built in pre-amps/amps in the DAC.
> ...


I suspect it isn't THX homogenizing sound given that Currawong called out the 789 as a reasonable amp for comparing DACs. That being said, in general I agree with you that headphones and the amp seem to be more impactful to the sound than a DAC when everything is changed in isolation.

Thanks for the detailed writeup BTW. It's making me question if I should try to budget for an Ares, or just be happy with my Bifrost 2.


----------



## VintageAudio

Relaxasaurus said:


> Great summation, thanks for posting this. Honest question though- since they sound so similar what's the point of having both DACs, or more than one DAC in general? Seems like it would be a wiring nightmare, especially with multiple amps.



Relaxasaurus, you're right.  Originally, I thought the Ares II and ADI-2 would give 2 flavours of sound - a more clean, neutral, accurate sound from the ADI-2 and a more analog, warm, smooth, holographic sound from the Ares II.  This was not the case from my experience.

I'm actually going to ditch the switch box.  Despite it claiming to not impact the sound, it added distortion.  The quality is better directly plugged in.

I have more than 1 setup so I plan to use the Denafrips / 789 for one of my workspaces and the ADI-2 on the other.

To get my warm, analog-ish fix, I add a tube pre-amp into the signal path so I can swap between solid-state and tube.  My DIY version of the IFI iCan Pro.  I really liked easy of which I could do solid state, tube and tube + with that amp.


----------



## VintageAudio

ActuallySparky said:


> I suspect it isn't THX homogenizing sound given that Currawong called out the 789 as a reasonable amp for comparing DACs. That being said, in general I agree with you that headphones and the amp seem to be more impactful to the sound than a DAC when everything is changed in isolation.
> 
> Thanks for the detailed writeup BTW. It's making me question if I should try to budget for an Ares, or just be happy with my Bifrost 2.



Well, I'm also not saying that all DACS are created equal.  The ADI-2 and Ares II are both DACs that are in a similar price bracket and measure well.  They are both really clean.  When I compare those two to lower tier dacs, tonally they may be similar, but the cheaper dacs are much more coarse in sound.

I would check out some reviews.  From the ones I have seen the reviewers are able to tell that the Ares II sounds better than many other R2R dacs.  I think we're all benefitting from the advances in technology and the law of diminishing returns.  You'll have to spend way more now just to get a noticeable difference in sound quality.

I'm guessing to punch above this ~$1000 USD DAC tier, you'd have to spend $3K-$4K to get something better like the Terminator, which is still considered a bargain relative other brand top end DACS.  I'm using my DACS for desktop setup, so I don't want a huge space eating chassis in my workspace to listen to headphones.  Seems counterintuitive.


----------



## robo24

VintageAudio said:


> In summary, the differences are extremely subtle. Outside of a shift in the soundstage between the 2, there is no difference.


Sorry if I missed it elsewhere, but could you say what that difference in soundstage is?


----------



## Sapientiam

sajunky said:


> A wide-band THD plot for Ares II is made by Amir for a malicious reason. Any electronic engineer knows that even the best testing equipment will display wrong results when testing THD in a presence of so much wide-band noise.



It isn't wide-band noise though, its specific image tones. For example in measuring THD at 15kHz you're normally assuming that once you notch out the fundamental what's left is only 30k/45k/60k etc. But in the case of a NOS DAC with only minimal (6dB/8ve) filtering there's a _massive_ component at (44.1k-15k) = 29.1kHz only ~10dB down on the fundamental. So a naive 'THD' reading would show around 30% distortion but it sure as hell isn't _harmonic _distortion.


----------



## sajunky (Apr 27, 2020)

Sapientiam said:


> It isn't wide-band noise though, its specific image tones. For example in measuring THD at 15kHz you're normally assuming that once you notch out the fundamental what's left is only 30k/45k/60k etc. But in the case of a NOS DAC with only minimal (6dB/8ve) filtering there's a _massive_ component at (44.1k-15k) = 29.1kHz only ~10dB down on the fundamental. So a naive 'THD' reading would show around 30% distortion but it sure as hell isn't _harmonic _distortion.


You are right, thanks for correcting. I looked at a review of a Khadas Tone Board where a test was taken. People asked questions, I turns up to be a log sweep. At a different 44.1kHz sampling, but it is not a big issue. https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-wesiontek-khadas-tone-board-dac.4823/page-7

However I wouldn't speculate which part of THD constitute a DAC real distortions and which part gives the analyzer. It is impossible to estimate and it doesn't make any sense. Our ears would detect anything above 2%. A test like that is completely pointless, it is a malicious amateur work. DSD decoder wouldn't show any better. .LOL.


----------



## Guidostrunk

Ok folks so I'm interested in the ares dac. Looking to move up the chain from my current airist r2r. I'm curious as to what the differences are between v1 & v2. 

Cheers


----------



## VintageAudio

VintageAudio said:


> Well, I'm also not saying that all DACS are created equal.  The ADI-2 and Ares II are both DACs that are in a similar price bracket and measure well.  They are both really clean.  When I compare those two to lower tier dacs, tonally they may be similar, but the cheaper dacs are much more coarse in sound.
> 
> I would check out some reviews.  From the ones I have seen the reviewers are able to tell that the Ares II sounds better than many other R2R dacs.  I think we're all benefitting from the advances in technology and the law of diminishing returns.  You'll have to spend way more now just to get a noticeable difference in sound quality.
> 
> I'm guessing to punch above this ~$1000 USD DAC tier, you'd have to spend $3K-$4K to get something better like the Terminator, which is still considered a bargain relative other brand top end DACS.  I'm using my DACS for desktop setup, so I don't want a huge space eating chassis in my workspace to listen to headphones.  Seems counterintuitive.



Here you go:

"I just watched Josh Valour's latest video on the Monoprice THX Dac - you should give it a watch. In it, he does a sound demo for Dirac Sensaround option on and off. If I were to describe the difference between the Ares II and the RME, it'd be like switching on/off Dirac Sensaround. It alters the soundstage and imaging so that sounds from primarly on the sides get stretched out. Vocals more in front and instruments a little more segregated and back slightly."


----------



## Gabehcuod

Thinking of picking this up from my local dealer.
I just wanted to ask if anyone has the Kann Cube and could give a rough comparison between XLR out on both units.


----------



## file1man

sajunky said:


> It looks like Ares II do not have a proper 2nd order (at least) analog filter on the output, so NOS modes will carry a lot of ultrasonic noise. Amir in his tests didn't do proper wideband FFT plot, but he attached the following unconventional THD plot in response to the requests for testing NOS mode, it was in order to scare people.
> 
> 
> The output filter looks very similar to the Audio GD R2R11, but here the output stage is made of non-feedback discrete amplifier. Denafrips don't give any details. If they use opamps, NOS mode will be affected negatively.
> ...


I'm new returned here. Why do I see so many, many posts referencing mesurement made by this guy amir saying his measurements have many errors.  Good effort with many mistakes


----------



## Nickol (May 5, 2020)

sajunky said:


> I'd like to hear from Denafrips about design of the output stage.



... so far we have not received any comments and clarifications from the representative *@alvin1118* on this issue .. (( .. ((


----------



## Guidostrunk

Probably wouldn't hurt to tag @alvin1118  if you have inquiries. 


Nickol said:


> ... so far we have not received any comments and clarifications from the representative on this issue .. (( .. ((


----------



## ActuallySparky (May 5, 2020)

VintageAudio said:


> Well, I'm also not saying that all DACS are created equal.  The ADI-2 and Ares II are both DACs that are in a similar price bracket and measure well.  They are both really clean.  When I compare those two to lower tier dacs, tonally they may be similar, but the cheaper dacs are much more coarse in sound.
> 
> I would check out some reviews.  From the ones I have seen the reviewers are able to tell that the Ares II sounds better than many other R2R dacs.  I think we're all benefitting from the advances in technology and the law of diminishing returns.  You'll have to spend way more now just to get a noticeable difference in sound quality.
> 
> I'm guessing to punch above this ~$1000 USD DAC tier, you'd have to spend $3K-$4K to get something better like the Terminator, which is still considered a bargain relative other brand top end DACS.  I'm using my DACS for desktop setup, so I don't want a huge space eating chassis in my workspace to listen to headphones.  Seems counterintuitive.


I'm with you - no way that I'm going to spend $2500 on a DAC that takes up my entire desk. I really like the smaller form factors that the Ares/Bifrost/ADI/D90 take up. I was hoping the Ares would stand out in this crowd, but increasingly I'm starting to believe that I wouldn't notice a _significant_ difference from my Bifrost 2.

That being said, that's good news. I love my Bifrost 2 (and it's best-in-class USB implementation), so I'm saving money if I don't get any major benefit from getting an Ares. Perhaps someday I'll have extra money sitting around and think differently (or want to build a second system for the office), but it's no longer that pressing in my mind.


----------



## robo24

Guidostrunk said:


> Ok folks so I'm interested in the ares dac. Looking to move up the chain from my current airist r2r. I'm curious as to what the differences are between v1 & v2.
> 
> Cheers


v2 has NOS mode and more filters. Personally my ears can never tell much difference between filters on any DAC since I can't hear about 13k. The ARES 1 is definitely a step up from the Airist. Definitely more resolving and nice to have balanced output.


----------



## Guidostrunk

You are correct. The Ares is definitely a few steps up over the Arist. What you said and as well as imaging, layering, soundstage and bass response. The bass really digs deep lol. It's a much more dimensional dac. I'm really digging it!


robo24 said:


> v2 has NOS mode and more filters. Personally my ears can never tell much difference between filters on any DAC since I can't hear about 13k. The ARES 1 is definitely a step up from the Airist. Definitely more resolving and nice to have balanced output.


----------



## Gabehcuod

ADI-2 is an actual meme.
Thing is quasi balanced with a split-phase output stage.
It sounds embarrassingly bad as a DAC, didn't even bother to listen to cans on it.
Comparing to my Ares II, it seems like the thing that draws people into the rmeme is a fancy display and the form factor. 
One of my mates traded his Ares II for an rmeme and it has been his biggest regret.


----------



## Relaxasaurus

Gabehcuod said:


> ADI-2 is an actual meme.
> Thing is quasi balanced with a split-phase output stage.
> It sounds embarrassingly bad as a DAC, didn't even bother to listen to cans on it.
> Comparing to my Ares II, it seems like the thing that draws people into the rmeme is a fancy display and the form factor.
> One of my mates traded his Ares II for an rmeme and it has been his biggest regret.


These are fighting words


----------



## Gabehcuod

Currently, I have Ares II on OS slow filter.
I have Audirvana upsampling to 32/1536 or DSD512 (when playing DSD files)
Would it be better to switch to NOS mode since the OS isn't really doing anything when playing back the maximum sample rate?
I read above people talking about the NOS not having analogue filters but does this matter when playing back this rate?


----------



## sajunky

Gabehcuod said:


> Currently, I have Ares II on OS slow filter.
> I have Audirvana upsampling to 32/1536 or DSD512 (when playing DSD files)
> Would it be better to switch to NOS mode since the OS isn't really doing anything when playing back the maximum sample rate?
> I read above people talking about the NOS not having analogue filters but does this matter when playing back this rate?


Not having analog filters seems is not affecting our ears directly, but unfiltered images (products of the conversion) intermodulate on the downstream electronics and speakers, adding distortions in the audible frequency range. These unwanted products of conversion are higher when not using upsampling, as upsampling shifts these images to the higher frequency range, it is easier to get rid of.

I would only use upsampling (if any) for the 44.1/48kHz source, as DSP processing has negative effects. For the higher sampling rates there is no need for upsampling as the first order output filter in the DAC is sufficient combined with more low pass filtering on the cables, preamp inputs, etc...

In other words, for higher sampling rates of the original source there is no reason for upsampling. You have NOS without negative aspects.

Upsampling everything to the maximum hardware capacity doesn't make any sense. It only increase jitter and transient errors during conversion.


----------



## love to listen

How do I connect with iPad?  I have a marantz CD player and peachtree nova 150 what is the best way to connect for CD player and iOS output?  New to the game, slightly clueless, and help much appreciated


----------



## Gabehcuod

love to listen said:


> How do I connect with iPad?  I have a marantz CD player and peachtree nova 150 what is the best way to connect for CD player and iOS output?  New to the game, slightly clueless, and help much appreciated


Not sure what you mean by connecting with iPad, alot of people use Roon or Audirvana with a server/streamer. Alternatively, if you want a cable, AudioQuest make a few cables for apple devices afaik. For connecting a CD Player, I would use Coax since this DAC has no I2S/AES inputs.
Kinda sad to use such a nice DAC with a single-ended integrated amplifier. You'd be better off with a Pre/Power Amplifier.
If you want to use the peachtree as a stopgap then just take the RCA out of the denafrips to an input of the peach tree.


----------



## daytrader (May 16, 2020)

love to listen said:


> How do I connect with iPad?  I have a marantz CD player and peachtree nova 150 what is the best way to connect for CD player and iOS output?  New to the game, slightly clueless, and help much appreciated


With an android pad you would just go from usb out of the pad to your usb input on the 150.  Apple is quite a different story I’m affraid.  Out of the iPad all you have is a headphone jack or a lightning charge port.  So 2 options here, see if you can find the Apple lightning to usb cable, or you might have to connect using your own white charging cable to a separate usb female to male cable, then input to the 150.  2nd option is from the headphone jack, purchase an analog cable that runs single plug(forgot the size) to a double rca plug and plug into the back of the 150 into one of the rca inputs.  All the above cables can be source from Amazon.  I have done it both ways from my iPad and my android directly into my Peachtree.  Having a built in dac is very convenient.


----------



## sajunky

For Apple it is called a "Lightning to USB Camera Adapter". Prices from $9 to $29.


----------



## alvin1118

Yep, lightning to USB camera adapter works. 

Cheers,
Alvin


----------



## ]eep

sajunky said:


> True. And Denafrips should stop paying ASR for testing. He wrote on the beginning that the unit was supplied by the manufacturer, then he called it off saying it was a mistake and unit was supplied by the un-named member of ASR. I don't believe it was a mistake. Measurements look good unlike the other Amir tests of R2R DACs which came a surprise, but a critical wideband FFT plot is missing, perhaps in purpose, a typical manipulations found in other tests. He always tries to bend results to match his agenda. Then something turned away 180 degrees and this mischievous things came up.
> 
> I think we should stop talk about ASR (my bad, sorry) and focus on what people have to say.
> 
> [EDIT] I'd like to hear from Denafrips about design of the output stage.


Thank you for confirming what I knew at heart but was unable to corroborate. I recently stumbled on Audio 'Science' review because of its rave review of the Tempotec HD pro DSD that I bought for mobile use, and like very much. But when I read on further articles I was disgusted by the biased and dishonest 'reviews' of non-SD dac's with filtering that did not follow his liking. Always beware of people (ab)using the word 'science' as simple segway claim to neutral authority. 

I had been struggling with dac's not being able to come anywhere close to the musical engagement (or simply said quality, since that's what music reproduction is about) of my analog setup. Then I started modifying an MHZS tube dac, tubes to filtering to power supply to finally even the dac board  (it does still sound good) when I stumbled upon a simple Chinese NOS R2R dac, 4 old school Philips TDA1543 in parallel. And since I gained confidence from all I learned before I started modifying that too but it still sounded veiled and, well, cheap. 

One pivotal event that made me decide for R2R was when I was browsing our city's heart one Saturday afternoon and the old church (13th century) was open for free live classical  music. When I took a seat in the pews and listened I had an epiphany: I could see the singers and instruments, it was totally live and un-amplified other than by the church acoustics, so I could SEE them but not HEAR them as I expected. Call it a recalibration of my hi-fi brain. I expect to hear all that micro information from my hifi that isn't there in real live life. But that is exactly the difference in that I heard between the SD and nos r2r dac. That fancy tubed sigma delta was making stuff up, exaggerating detail. The r2r was not. It places voices in a realistic setting, right size, right distance, no false highlights, no radiating halos, just 'there'. 

I modified and read up on R2R more until I broke all the 'engineering' rules and ended up with just 3V of non-oversampled, unfiltered high res signal. Literally nothing in the signal path between chip and amplifier. But it does sound very like my analog setup. Now I still use a 8xTDA Teradak that I modified the same way and is still my reference. 

I know from simply listening that r2r without filter sounds better, no matter what anyone says. I have no professional way to measure but when I play a frequency sweep I can hear all kinds of tones going up and down that aren't supposed to be there. Granted, but in music there are no such tones. It's the other way around, when filtered there's a definite veiling that's not supposed to be. I'll accept a mild 1st order analog filter (ie a cap that I can replace or take out if I want) but anything else, let alone old-school brickwall filtering is the death of musical engagement. Same goes for an opamp I/V, even though opamps are not bad in and of itself they are pointless if the dac-chip delivers enough V by itself. 

The last time I measured was a week ago testing my new speakers. Designed and made by me, so some measurements are due process. It sent me on a wild goose chase, the goose being a fierce peak from 4-6kHz, just in the critical crossing frequency that 'science' told me my minimalistic dream would shatter. I tried filtering but that killed the sound. Adding bafflestep did work but the peak was still there. I didn't really hear a problem. Different speakers, same peak. So it turned out to be a systemic error (mic most likely). Goes to show (again) that if you don't know what or  how to measure, or to interpret the results, graphs are meaningless. 

I also own a es9038q2m dac for tv/BT/volume convenience that is quite good, very silent, good space, very detailed. But when I play one of my reference recordings it chokes on certain loud passages. Like when Norah Jones starts singing 'wAIting for...' or the opening piano loop by Ryuichi Sakamoto with Morelenbaum on 'Casa' (a praya deserta). I can tell in 2 seconds... or Bach's Toccata und Fuge BWV365 after 45s becomes one jumbled mess while on the right dac (system) you can clearly hear every note in quick succession. 

I am trying to decide if the Ares II is my next (final) upgrade on this path. Or maybe the AK4499 Smsl M400/Topping D90 for convenience. Or does that pull the rug out from under my whole story? I have a well outli ed vision but I'm still pragmatic. I 'hate' CD, transistors, dometweeters, steep filtering, cheap shortcuts and mindless application of 'rules'. But to my surprise it turns out I just bought a transistor (current) amplifier. I am listening to (modded) 2ndH Wavecor speaker prototypes with domes, active subs (from my Genesis VI), Tempotec V1 media player to ES9038Q2M DAC with opamps or even BT sbc direct from my mobile (FLAC) and it blew my socks off. Not really minimalistic but most parts incredibly low budget and still able to better most I ever heard. 

What I have found out in 40y of experience with hifi (am I that old?) is that minimalism often yields the best results. In that line fit nos filterless R2R, tubes, belt or idler turntables (mc+sut), full range speakers. But, everything is a compromise! Everything. So keep an open mind and a clear vision on the goal. 

ps: I do réalise my talking is not minimalistic even though I try hard to be concise


----------



## Pharmaboy (May 29, 2020)

]eep said:


> One pivotal event that made me decide for R2R was when I was browsing our city's heart one Saturday afternoon and the old church (13th century) was open for free live classical music. When I took a seat in the pews and listened I had an epiphany: I could see the singers and instruments, it was totally live and un-amplified other than by the church acoustics, so I could SEE them but not HEAR them as I expected. Call it a recalibration of my hi-fi brain. I expect to hear all that micro information from my hifi that isn't there in real live life. But that is exactly the difference in that I heard between the SD and nos r2r dac. That fancy tubed sigma delta was making stuff up, exaggerating detail. The r2r was not. It places voices in a realistic setting, right size, right distance, no false highlights, no radiating halos, just 'there'.



This is about as good a subjective description of R2R/NOS digital vs delta-sigma that I've ever seen. Best of all, it centers around live music as a reference.

It's true that live music in a real acoustic space never sounds "detailed" or "accurate" or even "dynamic." It is inherently detailed, accurate, and dynamic. I had similar thoughts seeing/hearing Handel's Messiah in a NYC church a couple Christmases ago. That music got very loud at moments, but most typical audio descriptives simply didn't apply...

FYI, I'm on my 2nd NOS DAC (my alternate DAC is R2R, but not NOS)--and there's no going back for me.


----------



## daytrader (May 29, 2020)

Many Audiophiles have lost their way from the essence of live music enjoyment a longtime ago when this hobby became a money making science.  When it becomes a point of contention over .0004 vs. 04, then the music no longer matters.  So I can’t hear the guy in the third row scratch his balls during a quiet passage, does not make the music any less satisfying!


----------



## Guidostrunk

LMAO! 





daytrader said:


> Many Audiophiles have lost their way from the essence of live music enjoyment a longtime ago when this hobby became a money making science.  When it becomes a point of contention over .0004 vs. 04, then the music no longer matters.  So I can’t hear the guy in the third rows scratch his balls during a quiet passag, does not make the music any less satisfying!


----------



## gimmeheadroom

I just started reading on this topic and it seems like a DOH! moment. Music is analog. Even if they use digital techniques to record it that doesn't change the fact that eventually there has to be a conversion back to reality. I really like the idea of using a resistor network to decode binary. It's so simple. It's so obvious. It feels like an analog computer from the 1950s...


----------



## John Massaria

Hello- I have the Topping D90 and I like it but was wondering if anyone compared the D90 to
*Denafrips ARES II *
thanks!


----------



## ProLoL

John Massaria said:


> Hello- I have the Topping D90 and I like it but was wondering if anyone compared the D90 to
> *Denafrips ARES II *
> thanks!


----------



## sajunky (Jun 3, 2020)

John Massaria said:


> Hello- I have the Topping D90 and I like it but was wondering if anyone compared the D90 to
> *Denafrips ARES II *
> thanks!


How do you can compare Delta-Sigma DAC to a real R2R?


----------



## Pharmaboy

sajunky said:


> How do you can compare Delta-Sigma DAC to a real R2R?



Ideally, with your ears


----------



## sajunky

Pharmaboy said:


> Ideally, with your ears


There is a popular thought that videos would help.


----------



## John Massaria

Thanks - I’m sticking with my D90. I feel it reveals so much and I have to stop for now with is this better or is that better. I’m thankful for your response tho


----------



## ]eep

sajunky said:


> How do you can compare Delta-Sigma DAC to a real R2R?


With an open mind! Like any information entering your head. If you you are just looking for confirmation your mind will filter out contradictory info. Your ears can be the sensors but the gray matter inbetween does the filtering. And that sometimes needs a calibration. 

If you think your D90 'reveals so much', read about my brain reboot above and ask yourself the question: "is what I'm hearing realistic, true to life? Or is it artificial" And: do I want to experience real life while I'm sober or am I happy on mescaline? That's not meant derogative, some ppl just like it larger than life. Like the movie 'Click'; life on FF is a rush, but you don't know what you're missing. With me that question always keep knawing on my conscience. I like to take it straight up.


----------



## love to listen

How do I connect ares 2  to peach tree nova? I’ve have the ares connected to the CD player coaxial and the ares connected rca to peach tree.  Input on ares on coaxial and zero sound. Any help


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## Gabehcuod

I've always found chip DACs fatiguing, whereas with R-2R I'm relaxed for hours. Might be something between the harshness of AKM and glare of ESS and my brain having to work harder to fill in the missing information.


----------



## Gabehcuod

love to listen said:


> How do I connect ares 2  to peach tree nova? I’ve have the ares connected to the CD player coaxial and the ares connected rca to peach tree.  Input on ares on coaxial and zero sound. Any help


You connect it up to one of the auxiliary inputs and select that input on the front pannel?
Also ares 2 is on the Coax input?
Should show a sample rate of 44.1 1x, regardless of it being connected to peachtree.


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## Guidostrunk

I wonder how many people on here ever figured out your username. Hilarious! 
 


Gabehcuod said:


> I've always found chip DACs fatiguing, whereas with R-2R I'm relaxed for hours. Might be something between the harshness of AKM and glare of ESS and my brain having to work harder to fill in the missing information.


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## love to listen (Jun 4, 2020)

Gabehcuod said:


> You connect it up to one of the auxiliary inputs and select that input on the front pannel?
> Also ares 2 is on the Coax input?
> Should show a sample rate of 44.1 1x, regardless of it being connected to peachtree.


Thank your your help- I have it setup just as You suggested.  Ares isn’t showing a sample rate at all. I’ve tried both aux on the peach tree, still no sound. And yes, ares input on coaxial 1 and CD player input on aux 1 I’ve tried about every connection


----------



## gimmeheadroom

love to listen said:


> How do I connect ares 2  to peach tree nova? I’ve have the ares connected to the CD player coaxial and the ares connected rca to peach tree.  Input on ares on coaxial and zero sound. Any help



Please post some pics. Of all the back panels with cabling explained.


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## love to listen

gimmeheadroom said:


> Please post some pics. Of all the back panels with cabling explained.





gimmeheadroom said:


> Please post some pics. Of all the back panels with cabling explained.



Ares 2 coaxial to CD player/ares rca connected to aux on peach tree. Input on ares coaxial input/input on peach tree aux 1


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## Guidostrunk

If you're saying that you're using the coax 2 input on the back. You're ares is showing it's set on coax 1.


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## gimmeheadroom

I'm sorry man I'm going blind trying to read the panel markings. And your description is not exactly clear to me.

You do realize you cannot use a regular RCA stereo cable for the coax connection even though they look identical, right?

Maybe try one thing at a time. If you run the coax out from your CD player directly into the Peachtree, does it play i.e. can you hear it?


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## Guidostrunk

Nevermind. Have you checked your settings on the marantz?


----------



## love to listen

gimmeheadroom said:


> I'm sorry man I'm going blind trying to read the panel markings. And your description is not exactly clear to me.
> 
> You do realize you cannot use a regular RCA stereo cable for the coax connection even though they look identical, right?
> 
> Maybe try one thing at a time. If you run the coax out from your CD player directly into the Peachtree, does it play i.e. can you hear it?


Coaxial from amp to CD player no sound.


----------



## love to listen

Guidostrunk said:


> Nevermind. Have you checked your settings on the marantz?


I’ll look into hat now/thank you


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## love to listen

Got it going!!  Sound mode on maranta CD player turns off digital output😭🤷🏽‍♂️💆🏻‍♂️🌈can anyone recommend a reasonable prices coaxial cable? And usb b-c cable??


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## gimmeheadroom

love to listen said:


> Got it going!!  Sound mode on maranta CD player turns off digital output😭🤷🏽‍♂️💆🏻‍♂️🌈can anyone recommend a reasonable prices coaxial cable? And usb b-c cable??



Good news 

House brand coaxial cable from a pro audio shop should be cheap and good. Any USB cable from an electronics store is also fine.


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## sajunky (Jun 4, 2020)

]eep said:


> With an open mind! Like any information entering your head. If you you are just looking for confirmation your mind will filter out contradictory info. Your ears can be the sensors but the gray matter inbetween does the filtering. And that sometimes needs a calibration.


It is our brain, not our mind. It is one things. A mind is a highest-level in our brain.

The second things wrong - our brain do not filter out contradictory info. There is a more complex reason if a brain do so, it may happen. Generally our brain takes a sample of a sound and compare it with known templates. It simplifies processing. If our brain do not find a valid template, it requires intensive processing for a full recognition of the object. When there are multiple difficult objects it can go beyond of processing power. Instruments playing unisono are not recognised individually anymore, but are melted together into one sound. Over the longer time we get fatigue and we stop playing.

It is true that we want to hear what we have recorded during our lifetime (and possibly beyond). It gives full recognition of complex sounds, an effortless listening and a pleasure. Not things what you are saying. So I am going to feed my brain with such sound, not a sound that requires intensive processing and cause fatigue.

According to the Shannon-Nyquist, 44.1kHz sampling contain complete information about a waveform. Our brain is able to process such information without any loss. So why we are trying to alter real samples or fill-up 'missing' samples with wrong samples? There are no missing samples! These Delta-Sigma processed samples are wrong and only force our brain to work harder.

Any finally why there are Delta/Sigma advocates or a shameless Topping D90 advertising on the Denafrips thread?


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## ]eep (Jun 4, 2020)

please don't correct me as if I don't know what I'm talking about, especially not on semantics while making all sorts of grammar mistakes yourself. I was just hinting on pattern recognition without boring everyone away or trying to write a paper on psychoacoustics. And I don't regurgitate old debunked ideas. Besides that you are obviously completely missing the point. You are not hearing what I'm saying but are completely enveloped in your own opinions. That is the filtering I was referring to: the filtering of ideas not sound or some arbitrary scientific theorem sampling frequency. (ideas being the higher order language to sound merely the carrier or lower level language) 

Besides: all our brains auditive centre receives is samples from the stimulated nerve hairs in our cochlea, samples generated in our inner ears completely unrelated to any electrical or optical signals from outside our body. So contradictory to whatever you may think, our hearing, as well as our sight is completely digital. Ftm, the whole universe is digital, albeit on a very tiny sample scale. There is no infinity in nature, micro or macro scale so no real true analog.

What comes out of a DAC is an almost analog signal that mimics the intended signal closely with micro changes in phase and added distortion. An R2R is better in controlling phase, SD better in controlling distortion. I find phase (temporal coherence) to be the more important of the two. Therefore my preference would go to the Ares, but that doesn't mean the D90, or any AK4499 of flagship chip wouldn't sound pretty good. Implementation makes a lot of difference. 

"The only sure _barrier to truth_ is _to_ assume you already have it."




sajunky said:


> It is our brain, not our mind. It is one things. A mind is a highest-level in our brain.
> 
> The second things wrong - our brain do not filter out contradictory info. There is a more complex reason if a brain do so, it may happen. Generally our brain takes a sample of a sound and compare it with known templates. It simplifies processing. If our brain do not find a valid template, it requires intensive processing for a full recognition of the object. When there are multiple difficult objects it can go beyond of the processing power. Instruments playing unisono are not recognised individually anymore, but are melted together into one sound. Over the longer time we get fatigue and we stop playing.
> 
> ...


----------



## sajunky

]eep said:


> please don't correct me as if I don't know what I'm talking about, especially not on semantics while making all sorts of grammar mistakes yourself.


Well, in such case, take a time and either repeat the same ten times more to get attention of someone like me, or don't bother to reply. Thank you for conversation about Topping D90. <VBG>


----------



## Gabehcuod

If you're using a chip DAC, that's an L from me.


----------



## Marlowe

sajunky said:


> Well, in such case, take a time and either repeat the same ten times more to get attention of someone like me, or don't bother to reply. Thank you for conversation about Topping D90. <VBG>


Boy, for a second I thought I was on that other site. You know, the one that, in a stunning case of false advertising, puts "friends" in its title.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

sajunky said:


> It is our brain, not our mind. It is one things. A mind is a highest-level in our brain.



This was an unusual but kinda neat post. Thank you [/QUOTE]


----------



## c4sadler

Awesome. This is on my 'to buy' list. This will probably be the highest I go with a DAC.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

c4sadler said:


> Awesome. This is on my 'to buy' list. This will probably be the highest I go with a DAC.



Famous last words


----------



## c4sadler

gimmeheadroom said:


> Famous last words


Lol. Well said.


----------



## sajunky

c4sadler said:


> Awesome. This is on my 'to buy' list. This will probably be the highest I go with a DAC.


If you look at a bill of materials, Ares II is a good value, no question about. It is in contrast of many 'chipdacs' which are overpriced 5-times or even more.

I own a competetive very little advertised Audio GD R2R11 (which is selling only $350 and it include a very good headphone amp) and I was thinking whether Ares would be my next upgrade. It doesn't seem, as Ares keep a mouth shut on a question how I/V conversion and output stage is designed. I love a real, natural sound of my R2R11 and its puch&slam is extraordinary, shaking my heart every time it comes out of the recording. According to the reviews it is a strong feature of every Audio GD device. I am afraid I would lose it with Ares. Any thought?


----------



## ]eep

sajunky said:


> Well, in such case, take a time and either repeat the same ten times more to get attention of someone like me, or don't bother to reply. Thank you for conversation about Topping D90. <VBG>



me? Are you an idiot? I have been using and modifying R2R dac's for years, and years and years. I make my own I/V stages and you feel the need to lecture me just because I keep an open mind and don't discard something else out of the bat right away? Read my replies a week back and go sit in the corner and think about what you said... tsss. 

I am not considering the cheaper Audio-Gd R11 just because I do not trust the output stage and if I buy it I don't want to go and modify it like cheaper Chinese dac's. If I buy at such a price I do not want to go and tinker. And just before anyone goes on a rant again I've been a user and fervent advocate of Chinese audio for over 12y at least. I have seen good R2R dac's being ruined by unsuited or unnecessary output stages. Mostly (cheap) opamp output stages tend to ruin what could have been great. 

I can't imagine the Ares II having a less than suited output stage or it wouldn't garner this many rave reviews.


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## PopZeus (Jun 6, 2020)

love to listen said:


> How do I connect with iPad?  I have a marantz CD player and peachtree nova 150 what is the best way to connect for CD player and iOS output?  New to the game, slightly clueless, and help much appreciated



I just got a Bluesound Node 2i and while the wifi streaming is predictably excellent, the bluetooth (with iOS) is pretty surprising for using such a low bitrate codec. AptX-HD sounds a lot better than AAC on the 2i fwiw. The internal DAC in the 2i is fine but the digital out will feed the Ares well. It can do 192kHz over coax, which was the first that that sold me on it. The BluOS iPad app is actually great. Not buggy, and easy to use. With something like a streamer, that factors so heavily into my enjoyment. Gapless playback was the last thing that sold me on it. The only downside is I think it doesn't do DSD but i havn't tried yet.


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## adamos (Jun 6, 2020)

PopZeus said:


> I just got a Bluesound Node 2i and while the wifi streaming is predictably excellent, the bluetooth (with iOS) is pretty surprising for using such a low bitrate codec. AptX-HD sounds a lot better than AAC on the 2i fwiw. The internal DAC in the 2i is fine but the digital out will feed the Ares well. It can do 192kHz over coax, which was the first that that sold me on it. The BluOS iPad app is actually great. Not buggy, and easy to use. With something like a streamer, that factors so heavily into my enjoyment. Gapless playback was the last thing that sold me on it. The only downside is I think it doesn't do DSD but i havn't tried yet.



I’m using an Ares II with my Node 2i and have been happy with the combination.


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## sajunky (Jun 6, 2020)

]eep said:


> me? Are you an idiot? I have been using and modifying R2R dac's for years, and years and years. I make my own I/V stages and you feel the need to lecture me just because I keep an open mind and don't discard something else out of the bat right away? Read my replies a week back and go sit in the corner and think about what you said... tsss.
> 
> I am not considering the cheaper Audio-Gd R11 just because I do not trust the output stage and if I buy it I don't want to go and modify it like cheaper Chinese dac's. If I buy at such a price I do not want to go and tinker. And just before anyone goes on a rant again I've been a user and fervent advocate of Chinese audio for over 12y at least. I have seen good R2R dac's being ruined by unsuited or unnecessary output stages. Mostly (cheap) opamp output stages tend to ruin what could have been great.
> 
> I can't imagine the Ares II having a less than suited output stage or it wouldn't garner this many rave reviews.


There are three assumptions in this post.

1. You are very experienced - like - God and all others are idiots. Even you are God indeed (which I doubt), nothing prevent you from being more polite.

2. You don't trust Audio GD output stage. It is also an assumption that something is not done right. You just say, you don't trust but evidence is not given. On the contrary, output stage has always been a strong feature of all A-GD products - traditional and ACSS. There are only few brands offering things like ACSS (Krell is the one, probably one more). It is repeatedly pointed out by number of reviewers. So I really wonder, why do you not trust A-GD output stage???. It is an evident insinuation. The latest review is there: https://soundnews.net/sources/dacs/audio-gd-r7-2020-version-review-r2r-done-right/

It is actually very interesting review where R7 is compared against  Denafrips Venus and is winning in all aspects (including output stage).

In the same paragraph you say that it may be better if a DAC do not have an (active - pressumably) output stage than a defective one. I do agree. I have a passive RC network on my Nobsound 8x TDA1387 DAC/HPA, but it is $42 device. From the $$$ device I do expect a good active output stage. And I do have it on R2R11.

3. Assumption that Ares II have a good output stage. It may have a passive one, like my $42 Nobsound who knows? Revievers have very good amplifiers. Cheaper amplifiers may have problem with a passive output. This is a question I keep asking.


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## sajunky (Jun 6, 2020)

Marlowe said:


> Boy, for a second I thought I was on that other site. You know, the one that, in a stunning case of false advertising, puts "friends" in its title.


It took a time, to realize which website you are refering to... This is a forum with a dog pack menthality syndrome. Every American website is affected by this syndrome, but there it goes to the extreme. Everyone who do not match a majority, is stamped by the administrators with a funny label, so all others can easily identify a person as an intruder.

No, I don't belong there. I read a lot before joining a pack.


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## Krassi

gd7 is fking 2700 dollars... thats an amazing comparison! good job!
I prefer god..


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## sajunky

Krassi said:


> gd7 is fking 2700 dollars... thats an amazing comparison! good job!
> I prefer god..


Yip it is a good review.


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## ]eep (Jun 6, 2020)

sajunky, you really must learn to read. Try reading what people are actually saying instead of what you think they say. And by the way, I am very polite and very, very patient... unless provoked. And you started insinuating. I am not an American, not even close, I speak English as my third language and I have a great respect for the original Chinese culture (not the Marxist branded perversion) and many of its products, en natuurlik Afrikaners als jou dat wat seg. I am even professionally partnered with new tech production facility from a northern China province so I don't do groupthink. 

I said I don't trust the Audio-Gd R11 output stage, not the AG brand. The reason why I would not buy Audio Gd is purely subjective on my count (looks) so that is no argument at all, bringing it up would only discredit me. So, no comment about Audio-Gd engineering prowess on my part besides praise. But the cheapest model in a line often has corners cut. Simple economics since discrete R2R is expensive by nature. You have to make money to survive.

Therefore tossing the expensive Audio-Gd R7 into the fray is besides the point. You are trying to prove a different argument by insinuating I make generalisations. ie, barking up the wrong tree.

Also I nowhere mention 'defective' output stage. I have encountered less than optimal output stages, too loud (ahem, Lampizator?), not loud enough, muddy, redundant caps and opamps, cheap caps, etc. But not all dac-chips require an output stage per se. Sigma delta do, since their output is very low voltage. I don't think there is such a thing as 'passive amplification', only energy transformation, but any of the parallel TDA Dac's I have had, seen or modified on request had sub-optimal parts.

Btw, I like Douk audio, I am a frequent buyer there. They have a good nose for audio. Not so much for names (Nobsound... that's English slang for 'male appendage' sound ) Great stuff as a base for mods at low price)


----------



## sajunky

]eep said:


> sajunky, you really must learn to read. Try reading what people are actually saying instead of what you think they say.


With an open mind! Like any information entering my head. If you you are just looking for confirmation your mind will filter out contradictory info. Your eyes can be the sensors but the gray matter inbetween does the filtering. And that sometimes needs a cooling. Taken from your quote: 


]eep said:


> With an open mind! Like any information entering your head. If you you are just looking for confirmation your mind will filter out contradictory info. Your ears can be the sensors but the gray matter inbetween does the filtering. And that sometimes needs a calibration.



Do you know what I mean 'cooling?


----------



## Chodi

Leaving the dog fight of the previous three pages behind, I thought I would mention that I just ordered an Ares II. All the positive reviews got to me and I have never tried an R2R dac so this will be something new. If I like it I may eventually go for one of their higher models, we shall see. Should arrive in about 10 days if the winds are favorable. One never knows these days about even express shipping. I'm in Thailand so not a huge leap from the source. I use HQPlayer on my windows computer to play music. I don't stream anything and I don't use Bluetooth except with my phone or tablets so I got pushed away from thinking D90. I hope HQPlayer software works with this Ares II. I normally upscale my music files to DSD using HQPlayer. Not sure how that will go with this new Ares II dac. I can't remember the last time I saw so many positive comments and reviews for a new basically unknown product.


----------



## Gabehcuod

Chodi said:


> Leaving the dog fight of the previous three pages behind, I thought I would mention that I just ordered an Ares II. All the positive reviews got to me and I have never tried an R2R dac so this will be something new. If I like it I may eventually go for one of their higher models, we shall see. Should arrive in about 10 days if the winds are favorable. One never knows these days about even express shipping. I'm in Thailand so not a huge leap from the source. I use HQPlayer on my windows computer to play music. I don't stream anything and I don't use Bluetooth except with my phone or tablets so I got pushed away from thinking D90. I hope HQPlayer software works with this Ares II. I normally upscale my music files to DSD using HQPlayer. Not sure how that will go with this new Ares II dac. I can't remember the last time I saw so many positive comments and reviews for a new basically unknown product.


I used to do a similar thing by upscaling to DSD but with Audirvana.
However, I really do not recommend it with this DAC for a number of reasons.
Firstly, it's not really necessary for a R-2R DAC, since much like DSD the internal implementation is so simple that you don't get the problems typically associated with PCM.
If you were to upsample to DSD, you would only be using the separate 6-bit DSD board and not the main 20 bit (i think) PCM board.
You'd also be introducing unnecessary jitter for no real gain.
This DAC is designed to be great for PCM files and DSD files. Both are done exceptionally well.
I recommend doing the native rate and turning on OS with slow filter.


----------



## Chodi

Gabehcuod said:


> I used to do a similar thing by upscaling to DSD but with Audirvana.
> However, I really do not recommend it with this DAC for a number of reasons.
> Firstly, it's not really necessary for a R-2R DAC, since much like DSD the internal implementation is so simple that you don't get the problems typically associated with PCM.
> If you were to upsample to DSD, you would only be using the separate 6-bit DSD board and not the main 20 bit (i think) PCM board.
> ...


Thanks for the advice. Can you suggest what player to use with windows? If not HQPlayer then what? Foobar? I also notice you can select the amount of internal oversampling the Ares does when in OS mode. Have you played with those selections?


----------



## sajunky (Jun 12, 2020)

Chodi said:


> Thanks for the advice. Can you suggest what player to use with windows? If not HQPlayer then what? Foobar? I also notice you can select the amount of internal oversampling the Ares does when in OS mode. Have you played with those selections?


Any player that use WASAPI Exclusive Mode or ASIO will do the same job, unless you need extra features like replay gain, etc. Try to get bit-perfect working on your computer first. For WASAPI it needs proper configuration of both your player and Windows Sound Control Panel.

As for oversampling, it depends how your ears had been trained for and your music. Do you regularly attend live performance on acoustic instruments? Get a CD from an audiophile label like Chesky Records or ECM of the music you know well from the live performance.


----------



## Chodi

Gabehcuod said:


> I used to do a similar thing by upscaling to DSD but with Audirvana.
> However, I really do not recommend it with this DAC for a number of reasons.
> Firstly, it's not really necessary for a R-2R DAC, since much like DSD the internal implementation is so simple that you don't get the problems typically associated with PCM.
> If you were to upsample to DSD, you would only be using the separate 6-bit DSD board and not the main 20 bit (i think) PCM board.
> ...


Actually if you input DSD it uses the main 20Bit + the 6 bit DSD board. So it is additive. I have been unable to find out what the OS mode chooses as the oversampling rate. There is no display so no way to see what the oversampling rate actually is? It only displays the input rate (as far as I can tell). If someone knows how the Ares II calculates the oversampling rate I would be very interested to know. If you input 44.1 is it doing 2x, 4x, etc, oversampling? I cannot find that documented anywhere and none of the reviews address this they only all say the OS mode is great.


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## jimmychan (Jun 13, 2020)

PCM and DSD are separate decoder for DAC. They will enter into a different path. A PCM circuit won't decode DSD, and DSD circuit won't decode PCM.
Unless DSD is converted to PCM for decoding, that is not native DSD.


----------



## Gabehcuod

Normal R-2R cannot playback DSD natively. Your DSD signal will not go through the 20bit PCM board, it will only go through the 6bit DSD board.
If you've played DSD on an R-2R DAC without a separate board, you've either been listening to PCM internally or the DAC upsamples all inputs to DSD automatically.


----------



## Chodi

Gabehcuod said:


> Normal R-2R cannot playback DSD natively. Your DSD signal will not go through the 20bit PCM board, it will only go through the 6bit DSD board.
> If you've played DSD on an R-2R DAC without a separate board, you've either been listening to PCM internally or the DAC upsamples all inputs to DSD automatically.


I just did a search for the manufacturers comments on this and you are correct. You can input upsampled pcm and use the 20 bit ladder but not native dsd without switching to the separate dsd decoder. I was wrong in my previous post. I still have no idea how you tell what rate  the Ares II is oversampling in OS mode? Does not seem to be any documentation on that and no comments from the manufacturer that I can find.


----------



## sajunky

Chodi said:


> I just did a search for the manufacturers comments on this and you are correct. You can input upsampled pcm and use the 20 bit ladder but not native dsd without switching to the separate dsd decoder. I was wrong in my previous post. I still have no idea how you tell what rate  the Ares II is oversampling in OS mode? Does not seem to be any documentation on that and no comments from the manufacturer that I can find.


Do you want to match an input sampling rate to the oversampling target to avoid oversampling in a DAC? It is not the best things to do, as digital oversampling filter is still there, using just different parameters. If you want control oversampling rate in your DAC, you shouldn't buy Denafrips, rather go with Audio GD range R1/R2/R28/R7/R27.

I understand what you are trying to achieve, I am afraid it id not possible with Ares II (even in a higher grade Denafrips products like Venus/Terminator), but there is a trick you can avoid problems with digital filters. Convert on the PC your PCM source to DSD and feed Ares with DSD source. You can do it on the fly using Foobar. It gives good results with cheap Delta-Sigma DACs, please tell us how it works on Denafrips.


----------



## Chodi (Jun 13, 2020)

sajunky said:


> Do you want to match an input sampling rate to the oversampling target to avoid oversampling in a DAC? It is not the best things to do, as digital oversampling filter is still there, using just different parameters. If you want control oversampling rate in your DAC, you shouldn't buy Denafrips, rather go with Audio GD range R1/R2/R28/R7/R27.
> 
> I understand what you are trying to achieve, I am afraid it id not possible with Ares II (even in a higher grade Denafrips products like Venus/Terminator), but there is a trick you can avoid problems with digital filters. Convert on the PC your PCM source to DSD and feed Ares with DSD source. You can do it on the fly using Foobar. It gives good results with cheap Delta-Sigma DACs, please tell us how it works on Denafrips.


Thanks that is what I do now with HQPlayer. I think that would work on the Ares I if I turn off OS. I will play with it when it arrives. I am into best sound whatever gets there. Been using HQPlayer for years but I can break that habit if I get better sound without it. Ì upsample all my flac files to DSD 256. I can break that habit if the OS mode on Ares sounds better. The Ares II is on the way and paid for . Just want to try R2R.  I have other dacs .


----------



## armani006

I am curious - is it possible to make R2R DAC with MQA support ? It could be super option....


----------



## sajunky

Chodi said:


> Thanks that is what I do now with HQPlayer. I think that would work on yhe Ares IIif I turn off OS. I will play with it when it arrives. I am into best sound whatever gets there. Been using HQPlayer for years but I can break that habit if I get better sound without it. Ì upsample all my flac files to DSD 256. I can break that habit if the OS mode on Ares sounds better. The Ares II is on the way and paid for . Just want to try R2R.  I have other dacs .


I gave an idea of transcoding to DSD as a last resort. It may be a wrong one, as for a moment I forgotten that Ares II has NOS mode, sorry. I myself own R2R11 which is NOS-only. I made number of test with CD and high-res source files and came to the following conclusion:

1. If a source file has sampling rate higher than 48kHz, there is absolutely no need for resampling. NOS works the best, it has no negative aspects of NOS, no question about. Just play it in a source native mode in your player, puting a DAC in NOS mode.

2. For a source file with 44.1/48kHz sample rate you have three choices: OS mode to let DAC handle resampling, or NOS mode with two options: with a native sample rate of the source or with resampling on the PC to a reasonable rate (2,4 or 8) which in my opinion should be no more than 4x. Due to the vast processing power, resampling on the PC can be higher quality than any DAC can do. I don't know whether HQ player do it well, but perhaps you can install SoX add-on, it is the best resampler available and is free.

I found that resampling in SoX do not lose essential quality of a NOS R2R DAC, reverbation on decay are still there, sound is more clean, but little bit less real, not sure whether is better.

Even if resampling on PC gives good results, I do not recommend more than 4x, as with a higher rate sound can be even more distorted by a poor handling of the phenomenon called intersample overloads. In Foobar/SoX it seems to be a problem (google for it).

Enjoy your Ares II when it arrives!


----------



## Gabehcuod

armani006 said:


> I am curious - is it possible to make R2R DAC with MQA support ? It could be super option....


MQA is a massive meme.
I live in Australia with the shittiest internet you can imagine and still manage to stream 192/24 from Qobuz.
It's a poor excuse for DRM and lowering server costs


----------



## Gabehcuod

Chodi said:


> Thanks that is what I do now with HQPlayer. I think that would work on the Ares I if I turn off OS. I will play with it when it arrives. I am into best sound whatever gets there. Been using HQPlayer for years but I can break that habit if I get better sound without it. Ì upsample all my flac files to DSD 256. I can break that habit if the OS mode on Ares sounds better. The Ares II is on the way and paid for . Just want to try R2R.  I have other dacs .


Things i'd experiment with:
Once in NOS mode, Once is OS mode
1. mode no upsampling
2. mode upsampling to PCM1536
3. mode upsampling to DSD256


----------



## armani006

Gabehcuod said:


> I live in Australia with the shittiest internet you can imagine and still manage to stream 192/24 from Qobuz.
> I


if you have bad internet it doesn't mean that MQA is bad. The question is technical - if MQA is compatible with R2R DAC


----------



## gimmeheadroom

Gabehcuod said:


> MQA is a massive meme.
> I live in Australia with the shittiest internet you can imagine and still manage to stream 192/24 from Qobuz.
> It's a poor excuse for DRM and lowering server costs



MQA sounds good to me. I agree the compression is dumb in the post Year2000 world.

Have you listened to MQA on good hardware and decided its crap or was your comment that MQA is massive meme also a massive meme


----------



## Gabehcuod (Jun 14, 2020)

gimmeheadroom said:


> MQA sounds good to me. I agree the compression is dumb in the post Year2000 world.
> 
> Have you listened to MQA on good hardware and decided its crap or was your comment that MQA is massive meme also a massive meme


Haven't listened on any crazy hardware, Just my Kann Cube into either my two-channel system via 5-Pin XLR or Stax 404 Limited Headphones.
MQA sounds coloured to me, even when using audirvana so the volume leveling nonsense is disabled.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

Gabehcuod said:


> Haven't listened on any crazy hardware, Just my Kann Cube into either my two-channel system via 5-Pin XLR or Stax 404 Limited Headphones.
> MQA sounds coloured to me, even when using audirvana so the volume leveling nonsense is disabled.



I meant good MQA hardware, not just good cans.

Albums like Captain Fantastic or some of the Van Morrison records MQA versions over my Oppo 205 or Brooklyn DAC+ remind me of what the vinyl sounds like. Superb. I don't know if they're the same masters or if the MQA masters are better. But they sound great to me and Tidal is cheap here and Qobuz is not available. Easy decision.


----------



## Gabehcuod

gimmeheadroom said:


> I meant good MQA hardware, not just good cans.
> 
> Albums like Captain Fantastic or some of the Van Morrison records MQA versions over my Oppo 205 or Brooklyn DAC+ remind me of what the vinyl sounds like. Superb. I don't know if they're the same masters or if the MQA masters are better. But they sound great to me and Tidal is cheap here and Qobuz is not available. Easy decision.


The Kann Cube is a 1.5K DAP that does MQA pretty well. I've listened to stuff from tidal and some samplers that were preloaded.
If I want an analogue sound, I listen to DSD on the denafrips.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

Gabehcuod said:


> The Kann Cube is a 1.5K DAP that does MQA pretty well. I've listened to stuff from tidal and some samplers that were preloaded.
> If I want an analogue sound, I listen to DSD on the denafrips.



Agreed, DSD does sound like what I always wanted CDs to be.


----------



## thisisvv

anyone use hqplayer with the dac? if so what settings works best?


----------



## Chodi

thisisvv said:


> anyone use hqplayer with the dac? if so what settings works best?


Mine is in shipment. If you want to pm me in about a week we can share information as I also use HQPlayer for years.


----------



## sajunky

Gabehcuod said:


> The Kann Cube is a 1.5K DAP that does MQA pretty well. I've listened to stuff from tidal and some samplers that were preloaded.
> If I want an analogue sound, I listen to DSD on the denafrips.


Kann Cube is a Delta-Sigma DAC. Analogue sound properties are already lost in this converter, so MQA can't really do more damage. You don't need MQA on Ares II.

I agree about DSD recordings. Many DSD recordings are less processed in the lab, it leads to the more natural sound. It can give you impression about an advantage of DSD format, but it is not a case. You just receive better source material in DSD format, as mastering options are very limited. On a cheap DAC DSD playback will usually sound better for yet another reason. However on a good R2R DAC converting DSD files to PCM 24/176kHz should give more natural sound, just use NOS mode.

The last point will be even more significant when more DSD titles are mastered in DXD format, it is a latest trend, be prepared for that.


----------



## dakchi

Hello,
For those who are interested, I received yesterday ARES 2 that I ordered. I already have RME ADI-2 that has an excellent reputation in the forum. I was curious to compare the 2. After a few hours of burn-in, here are my first conclusions: 

ARES 2 is an excellent DAC that provides an organic and airy (3D) sound with very tied bass. I have a pair of B&W CM9 S2 that can be bright and fatiguing with some tracks. ARES 2 corrected this and made them sound relax. I have been very impressed by the bass and mids too. Vocals sound fantastic with ARES 2
RME ADI-2 on the other hand sounds more analytical with extended amount of highs compared to ARES 2. Instruments separation is better, but lows and mids are led back compared to ARES 2. The best way to describe it is that it is neutral. There is no coloration whatsoever
I expect that ARES will get better with burn-in. So far, it is an excellent DAC despite the issues that have reported here regarding measurements. I don't care about measurements. What is important is that I enjoy the music
Honetly, we cannot say that a DAC is better than another. All we can say is that it sounds different. Looking for a good setup is about finding synergies between components. For example, I wouldn't use RME ADI-2 with a bright speakers, unless I have a warm sounding amp, and I wouldn't use ARES 2 with less resolving speakers unless this is the kind of music I like.
Of course ARES 2 does not have the fancy screen and remote control that RME ADI-2, but as a DAC it sounds excellent depending on taste of course


----------



## thisisvv

Chodi said:


> I will play with it when it arrives. I am into best sound whatever gets there. Been using HQPlayer for years but I can break that habit if I get better sound without it. Ì upsample all



that would be great....


----------



## Gabehcuod

dakchi said:


> Hello,
> For those who are interested, I received yesterday ARES 2 that I ordered. I already have RME ADI-2 that has an excellent reputation in the forum. I was curious to compare the 2. After a few hours of burn-in, here are my first conclusions:
> 
> ARES 2 is an excellent DAC that provides an organic and airy (3D) sound with very tied bass. I have a pair of B&W CM9 S2 that can be bright and fatiguing with some tracks. ARES 2 corrected this and made them sound relax. I have been very impressed by the bass and mids too. Vocals sound fantastic with ARES 2
> ...


Purely morally I could never own a rmeme.
To me, using a quasi balanced DAC using an outdated chip with a reverse-phase output is like trying to fool myself.
Feels like winning over a naive kid with a fancy display.

Interesting that you enjoy it though.


----------



## thisisvv (Jun 21, 2020)

Running for 1 day and right now Chord Dave is sitting idle while i am listening and so far my hand hasnt gone to change the wire to go to Chord Dave.

I know Dave has this won but for 1/13 price of Dave this is just some serious value....


----------



## dakchi

Hello,
After a few more hours of burn-in, I am good to share with you my conclusions on Denafrips Ares II and RME ADI-2 used *as a DAC in a hifi setup* with speakers. If you are using ADI-2 with headphones, then this review is not for you. I am not into headphones world. Please note that we have different ears. These are my personal impressions:

Denafrips Ares II is trully an incredible DAC. Every note is more impactful compared to RME, in particular the bass and mids. The other big difference with RME is that Ares adds air in the sound. This can be easily noticed with vocals. I don't know how this little thing does it but the sound is kind of 3D, while RME is more 2D. In addition to that, Ares II has warmer sound, the kind of sound we get from tubes amplifiers
RME ADI-2 as a DAC is very neutral and crystal clear with no coloration at all. It has a better separation imho than Ares, which is a good and a bad thing. For example, when I noticed that the bass in Ares II goes deeper and has more impact than RME, I did something I normally never do: I played with EQ to raise the bass. By doing that, the bass had indeed more impact but it was too separated from the rest of the frequencies, like if it was playing separately. The result was not good. I made a lot of changes to EQ to have something close to the sound of Ares II, but all my attempts were not successful
In conclusion, I did everything to like RME, but for what I would like to use it I think that Ares II suits my taste better. RME has incredible features that Ares II does not have: remote control, screen, headphones amp, a lot of settings including EQ; but what is important for me is the sound. I have been tortured the last few days between sound and features. At the end, I choose the sound because that's what matters to all of us.
So my personal recommendation: if you want a DAC for headphones or like neutral crystal clear sound then RME is an excellent value and will do the job very well. If you are looking for a DAC for a hifi setup and like warm bassy airy sound , then Ares II is the best option between the 2 imho.


----------



## daytrader

dakchi,
Nice review and thank you for taking the time and posting your evaluation.  Do you recall if you had the Ares II setting in OS or NOS?  I will guess by your listening observations it was likely NOS but let us know if any difference was apparent if switched back and forth during your testing?  Thank you again.


----------



## dakchi

daytrader said:


> dakchi,
> Nice review and thank you for taking the time and posting your evaluation.  Do you recall if you had the Ares II setting in OS or NOS?  I will guess by your listening observations it was likely NOS but let us know if any difference was apparent if switched back and forth during your testing?  Thank you again.


Honestly, with good quality files, I could not hear a difference between OS and NOS. If there is a difference, then it is a very subtle one, but I couldn't hear it. I know that measurements tell that there is a difference, but my understanding is that the difference is in the very high frequencies that human ears cannot hear


----------



## Nickol

dakchi said:


> Hello,
> After a few more hours of burn-in, I am good to share with you my conclusions on Denafrips Ares II and RME ADI-2 used *as a DAC in a hifi setup* with speakers. If you are using ADI-2 with headphones, then this review is not for you. I am not into headphones world. Please note that we have different ears. These are my personal impressions:
> 
> Denafrips Ares II is trully an incredible DAC. Every note is more impactful compared to RME, in particular the bass and mids. The other big difference with RME is that Ares adds air in the sound. This can be easily noticed with vocals. I don't know how this little thing does it but the sound is kind of 3D, while RME is more 2D. In addition to that, Ares II has warmer sound, the kind of sound we get from tubes amplifiers
> ...



@dakchi 
What was your source for Ares II and RME ADI-2 ?


----------



## dakchi

Nickol said:


> @dakchi
> What was your source for Ares II and RME ADI-2 ?


My source was a Bluesound Node 2i connected to the DAC with a coaxial cable


----------



## gimmeheadroom

There are a lot of ways to screw up EQ on the RME. I don't have enough facts to understand the review. In the end it's personal anyway.


----------



## alvin1118

85 happy customers will be receiving the Ares II DAC soon. We are committed to deliver. 👍

Cheers!


----------



## Focux

Hello all, any Qutest owners here that can share their impressions against Ares ii?

Am curious if Qutest (vs Ares ii) + THX789/Feliks Echo is a better pairing.


----------



## Chodi (Jun 25, 2020)

I received my Ares II yesterday. Normally I would not comment on a product after only a few hours burn in but this is astounding. I have it in OS mode and feeding it with HQPlayer set to pcm out through usb using the driver for Windows from Denafrips website. I was expecting a change going from Sabre dac to r2r but holly cow this is so obviously great that anyone could hear that this hits far above it's price point. I am now kicking myself for not buying one of their higher models. Honestly can't even imagine how it could be better but I am sure the higher models must be better to justify their cost. This company is seriously onto a very bright future. Open airy sound with incredible depth and analog/natural tonal quality I have not heard before from any dac. This is after 24 hours. If it gets better I may be forced to order the higher model just to see how far they can take this. Amazing dac for $800 delivered. It was packed like a national heirloom. This is not your average high end audio company. Keep your eyes on them they are remarkably talented designers.


----------



## XERO1

Right now, I've got a Schiit Bifrost 2 on order.  But once it arrives and I get a feel for its sound, I'll be placing an order for the Ares II next.  

May the best DAC win!


----------



## Chodi

XERO1 said:


> Right now, I've got a Schiit Bifrost 2 on order.  But once it arrives and I get a feel for its sound, I'll be placing an order for the Ares II next.
> 
> May the best DAC win!


That comparison has been done by several reviewers all with the same results. I will be very interested to hear your results and see if you come to the same conclusions.


----------



## XERO1

Chodi said:


> That comparison has been done by several reviewers all with the same results. I will be very interested to hear your results and see if you come to the same conclusions.


What was the consensus?


----------



## Chodi

XERO1 said:


> What was the consensus?


You can read them and view them on YouTube and draw your own conclusion. My take was that they nearly all found the Ares II better. Some were cautious about their conclusions probably because Shiit Audio has a bigger footprint in the community. So they qualified their conclusion in favor of the Ares II.


----------



## ProLoL

I've just ordered the ares2 from Vinshine, what are you guys prefer to listen to, NOS vs OS slow/sharp and why?


----------



## dakchi

ProLoL said:


> I've just ordered the ares2 from Vinshine, what are you guys prefer to listen to, NOS vs OS slow/sharp and why?


Honestly, I couldn't hear a difference between the 2


----------



## Chodi

ProLoL said:


> I've just ordered the ares2 from Vinshine, what are you guys prefer to listen to, NOS vs OS slow/sharp and why?


I can hear the difference and I much prefer the OS mode. The rest of your system including your headphones will determine if you can hear a clear difference.


----------



## ProLoL

Chodi said:


> I can hear the difference and I much prefer the OS mode. The rest of your system including your headphones will determine if you can hear a clear difference.



Yes ofcourse, I myself happen to detect even the slightest changes either it's filters, usb cables and so on. What's your take on OS slow vs sharp? the sharp I assume is brighter? like brickwall filter? brickwall usually have pre ringing from my experience.


----------



## Chodi

ProLoL said:


> Yes ofcourse, I myself happen to detect even the slightest changes either it's filters, usb cables and so on. What's your take on OS slow vs sharp? the sharp I assume is brighter? like brickwall filter? brickwall usually have pre ringing from my experience.


I use the slow filter. You are correct the fast filter is a very sharp cutoff. I also am feeding the dac with HQPlayer so I have a variety of their custom filters to play with. So far I have only fed the Ares II with pcm at 352.8 kHz. Using HQPlayer I have the option to send 44.1 or upsample. I quickly found I prefer to upsample the input. When I have time I will try some DSD.


----------



## ProLoL

Nice. By the way, is the usb interface powered internally or by the computer's 5v?


----------



## Cat Music

can you advise me which amplifier could combine well with the Ares II? I was thinking about the smsl sp200, I don't know if anyone has this combo to try, in any case another amplifier in that price range, thanks


----------



## Chodi

ProLoL said:


> Nice. By the way, is the usb interface powered internally or by the computer's 5v?


I don't know the answer they are using a knock off circuit not the usual Xmos usb pcb. Did they improve on the Xmos board? I doubt it I think this was more a cost cutting issue they didn't want to be buying the licensed xmos pcb so they created their own solution. These are talented engineers. It uses the same usb driver from Thesycon which they did license at a small fee. Using the same driver would suggest the same, or very similar implementation. They saved $30-$50 per unit cost depending on volume.


----------



## Gabehcuod

Cat Music said:


> can you advise me which amplifier could combine well with the Ares II? I was thinking about the smsl sp200, I don't know if anyone has this combo to try, in any case another amplifier in that price range, thanks


Don't spend 3x of the amp on the DAC, that's just a poor way of allocating funds. DAC differences are hardly as big as amplifier differences.


----------



## sajunky

Chodi said:


> I don't know the answer they are using a knock off circuit not the usual Xmos usb pcb. Did they improve on the Xmos board? I doubt it I think this was more a cost cutting issue they didn't want to be buying the licensed xmos pcb so they created their own solution. These are talented engineers. It uses the same usb driver from Thesycon which they did license at a small fee. Using the same driver would suggest the same, or very similar implementation. They saved $30-$50 per unit cost depending on volume.


To answer the OP question, you need to power off Denafrips, but keep USB cable connected to the PC. If the Denafrips device stops responding, it means the interface is powered internally (now dead). Note that there are two cases of getting power from USB. Portable device take the USB power for all functions. There is no reason to think that Ares would do it. Even if any power is taken from USB, it is probably only for responding to the OS ID queries (about device capability).

Other than that, I found your response very informative. I agree, decision behind of not using XMOS hardware is probably not cost saving, but a desire to do it better. XU208 chip is known to introduce a small amount of jitter, as decoding is software (MPU) based. They avoid such problems with their own hardware and a top grade Thesycon libraries (the same as XMOS is using). It is actually the best engineered part of Ares, IHMO.


----------



## ProLoL

sajunky said:


> To answer the OP question, you need to power off Denafrips, but keep USB cable connected to the PC. If the Denafrips device stops responding, it means the interface is powered internally (now dead). Note that there are two cases of getting power from USB. Portable device take the USB power for all functions. There is no reason to think that Ares would do it. Even if any power is taken from USB, it is probably only for responding to the OS ID queries (about device capability).
> 
> Other than that, I found your response very informative. I agree, decision behind of not using XMOS hardware is probably not cost saving, but a desire to do it better. XU208 chip is known to introduce a small amount of jitter, as decoding is software (MPU) based. They avoid such problems with their own hardware and a top grade Thesycon libraries (the same as XMOS is using). It is actually the best engineered part of Ares, IHMO.



Glad to hear that, I'll test the usb once the unit arrives and if it's sufficient in performance then I'll avoid using transporters. I always prefer using the unit as all in one cause it's tuned the way they wanted with it's usb interface plus you avoid introducing unnecessary noise with an addition of another device in the chain.


----------



## 340519 (Jun 27, 2020)

Cat Music said:


> can you advise me which amplifier could combine well with the Ares II? I was thinking about the smsl sp200, I don't know if anyone has this combo to try, in any case another amplifier in that price range, thanks


The smsl sp200 is excellent. 90% of the hpa4. One of the best amps I've ever come across. Clean 888 thx power.


----------



## Gabehcuod

dmdm said:


> The smsl sp200 is excellent. 90% of the hpa4. One of the best amps I've ever come across. Clean 888 thx power.


Stop the cap


----------



## Chodi

There are 2 usb drivers posted on the Denafrips website for download. I just automatically selected the one with the highest revision number. I am using it without any issue. I thought it strange that they would list 2 drivers without explanation as to which is appropriate for the Ares II? Anyone know what is the difference between these two drivers other than the revision number? Are they intended for different use?
https://www.denafrips.com/support


----------



## alvin1118

Hello @Chodi , 

The DENAFRIPS DAC Windows USB driver is licensed by Thesycon. 

Thesycon does continuous improvement to the driver, a detailed driver revision history can be found here:
TUSBAudio_history.txt

We keep the older driver on the website as a backup. Hope this clarifies!

Cheers,
Alvin Chee
www.vinshineaudio.com


----------



## Gabehcuod

Yeah, they have a general driver for all their products. Most companies do.


----------



## Gabehcuod

@alvin1118 Also, forgive my blindness, but which section of the internals actually handles the DSD input. It says the Ares 2 has a 6Bit R-2R DSD section. The PCM section is obvious, but the DSD one is hiding from me.


----------



## alvin1118

Hello @Gabehcuod 

The Ares II handles PCM and DSD in its native format, i.e. there is no PCM/DSD conversion or vice-versa. 
You're right to say that the DSD decoding R-2R or rather, discreet resistors decoding of the DSD, is hidden in the same resistors-array. DENAFRIPS uses a very smart way to handle this.

Hope this helps!

Cheers,
Alvin Chee
www.vinshineaudio.com


----------



## gimmeheadroom

Gabehcuod said:


> Stop the cap



How do you know it's the caps? Maybe it is the resistors, inductors, of even a combination of components


----------



## Nickol (Jun 29, 2020)

ProLoL said:


> Nice. By the way, is the usb interface powered internally or by the computer's 5v?


@ProLoL
not from the powered internally. Depends on 5 volts of the external device.


----------



## alvin1118

*USB Cable*

DENAFRIPS DAC USB module is powered by its internal regulated, low noise, low ripple, high speed linear power supply.

However, it needs the USB cable to supply the +5vdc as a logic signal to trigger the internal power supply to the USB module. This design is intentional for best sound quality consideration.

FAQ @ https://www.denafrips.com/support

Hope this helps!


----------



## ProLoL

Nickol said:


> @ProLoL
> not from the powered internally. Depends on 5 volts of the external device.



Thanks, I'll be using an ifi Ipower with my usb as the 5v pin won't be blocked.


----------



## iFi audio

ProLoL said:


> Thanks, I'll be using an ifi Ipower with my usb as the 5v pin won't be blocked.



You might want to take a look at iDefender+ to provide external 5V from iPower.


----------



## gto88

But, as said, the input USB 5V is used as a logic trigger to internal USB module power, it doesn't
provide the power supply to the USB module, so I donot think it needs to be purified.
But the USB data part should be.


----------



## gto88

Another question about the final bit rate or FR, since there is no display, how do we know
the working status of the DAC?
Bare with me if this has been answered.


----------



## ProLoL

gto88 said:


> But, as said, the input USB 5V is used as a logic trigger to internal USB module power, it doesn't
> provide the power supply to the USB module, so I donot think it needs to be purified.
> But the USB data part should be.



The Amanero on audio gd and few xmos that internally powered, blocking the 5v pin brings night and day difference for me and few others that tried. You got to have a very dirty source to appreciate.


----------



## Pharmaboy

That's what's missing in my life--a dirty source.


----------



## armani006

I've got mine today and as first impression - I don't hear any difference with Audio-DG NFB28 wich has Sabre 9018 on board. May be Ares will sound different in next few days or week, who can confirm this? does Ares sound different after burn?


----------



## sajunky (Jul 1, 2020)

ProLoL said:


> The Amanero on audio gd and few xmos that internally powered, blocking the 5v pin brings night and day difference for me and few others that tried. You got to have a very dirty source to appreciate.


Amanero module do use USB 5V for power, but custom modules found in Audio GD equipment do not. A-GD provide internal power to the module, it is explained on the A-GD website. The idea was to reduce ground loops. However floating end of 5V (red) wire act as an antenna creating standing wave on the ground wire. Users found that SQ is better when red wire is blocked at the source (5V not entering the cable). In this way red wire is left unterminated on both sides and works better that way.

Denafrips decided to terminate 5V wire and use it for signalling and thats all (as I hear) - not for decoding, it is fine.

As for the signal purification, it is good to have. It can be also done at the output of thee USB decoder (even easier). Not sure how it is done there.


----------



## iFi audio

sajunky said:


> As for the signal purification, it is good to have.



Sure is good to at least try it, be it noise reduction, galvanic isolation or reclocking. It's better to spend little and try to improve a DAC (if there's room to do so of course) instead of replacing it


----------



## ]eep

I am close to buying the Ares II but I suddenly realise, I don't  know if it'll work if I plug my phone or Tempotec V1 (Hiby) in to that FPGA USB receiver. I love my V1 since it's quiet and sends bit perfect DSD over the USB. I know I can use the toslink and coax but the Ares only accepts DSD-Dop and that doesn't sound as good as native (I can tell). 

As far as I can tell there is no Android driver, but Thesycon states that Mac-OS and Linux have built-in driver. So does Android have that too? I haven't used a PC in years. 

Logically I would say, if the V1 or Android via Hiby software sends a bit perfect Dsd-64 signal, that would be the same as what the windows driver does: make that exact same direct out signal. 

In short: can I plug my Android in to the USB? Has anyone tried? It works on any USB I've tried so far (xmos, tenor etc)


----------



## Guidostrunk

My Note 9+ worked flawlessly with my Ares. 


]eep said:


> I am close to buying the Ares II but I suddenly realise, I don't  know if it'll work if I plug my phone or Tempotec V1 (Hiby) in to that FPGA USB receiver. I love my V1 since it's quiet and sends bit perfect DSD over the USB. I know I can use the toslink and coax but the Ares only accepts DSD-Dop and that doesn't sound as good as native (I can tell).
> 
> As far as I can tell there is no Android driver, but Thesycon states that Mac-OS and Linux have built-in driver. So does Android have that too? I haven't used a PC in years.
> 
> ...


----------



## Gabehcuod

armani006 said:


> I've got mine today and as first impression - I don't hear any difference with Audio-DG NFB28 wich has Sabre 9018 on board. May be Ares will sound different in next few days or week, who can confirm this? does Ares sound different after burn?


Could be the rest of the system, the source files or your hearing.
Ares 2 sounds better after burn-in, but if you're not hearing an immediate difference, then you've definately got a problem.


----------



## ]eep

Guidostrunk said:


> My Note 9+ worked flawlessly with my Ares.


Thank you. See, worried about nothing... Half the world has an Android phone but they 'forget' to mention that it works on Android OS. Suffer the thought that you might use the ubiquitous Android phone as a source for HD high end music playback


----------



## ]eep

armani006 said:


> I've got mine today and as first impression - I don't hear any difference with Audio-DG NFB28 wich has Sabre 9018 on board. May be Ares will sound different in next few days or week, who can confirm this? does Ares sound different after burn?



there is quite a difference in dac's. But like anything; you won't notice it at first. It takes a bit of training to discern the difference. That doesn't mean that the difference is small or meaningless you need to listen for different things that you're not used to pay attention to otherwise with other transducers or sources. Since the frequency curve is always flat with dac's, that's what you normally notice while appreciating headphones or speakers. You need to listen for spatial clues like; ' where is the singer standing' is he big cloud or small point, is there a halo of tizz around him or does he appear from a black background, how wide and deep is the soundstage etc. Try to get to listen to an acoustic setting of real life singers or musicians. Then put on some classical music and try to tell if that is like the acoustic setting. The Ares will sound subdued and lacklustre compared to the added detail spotlight and sparkle of the 9018 but that is not natural. With the Ares the sound will be just 'there'. 

Appreciating the fine things in life always takes some training. But when you notice the difference you will have found a delight that you do not want to live without.


----------



## Chodi

armani006 said:


> I've got mine today and as first impression - I don't hear any difference with Audio-DG NFB28 wich has Sabre 9018 on board. May be Ares will sound different in next few days or week, who can confirm this? does Ares sound different after burn?


No disrespect to the previous poster  but the difference between the Ares II and the NFB28 should be very obvious. If you provide some details about how you have it connected to your source (computer) and the software you are using to play music perhaps we can help. This should not be a subtle difference. I am guessing you are using the Stax headphones? Do you have any other headphones on hand? Please provide some details and we will try to help.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

Pharmaboy said:


> That's what's missing in my life--a dirty source.



Good problem to have...


----------



## Nickol (Jul 2, 2020)

]eep said:


> I am close to buying the Ares II but I suddenly realise, I don't  know if it'll work if I plug my phone or Tempotec V1 (Hiby) in to that FPGA USB receiver. I love my V1 since it's quiet and sends bit perfect DSD over the USB. I know I can use the toslink and coax but the Ares only accepts DSD-Dop and that doesn't sound as good as native (I can tell).
> 
> As far as I can tell there is no Android driver, but Thesycon states that Mac-OS and Linux have built-in driver. So does Android have that too? I haven't used a PC in years.
> 
> ...


@]eep
I use this. Works fine from my phone (Xiaomi Mi Max2) Android through HibyMusic, the phone (usb port) should support usb otg. I use a short cable usb (75cm) for this. The HibyMusic player uses direct access to an external device via usb, excluding audio output through the Android mixer. Also, HibyMusic perfectly makes a direct conclusion of the DSD (64-256) stream bit by bit in the native mode.
Totally satisfied. Such a source is better than a noisy computer, I think.


----------



## armani006

Gabehcuod said:


> Could be the rest of the system, the source files or your hearing.
> Ares 2 sounds better after burn-in, but if you're not hearing an immediate difference, then you've definately got a problem.


I left Ares for burning, but don't know how long it must be on this stage.. may be some changes will come after one week.. I heard this somewhere earlier in this thread.



Chodi said:


> If you provide some details about how you have it connected to your source (computer) and the software you are using to play music perhaps we can help. This should not be a subtle difference. I am guessing you are using the Stax headphones? Do you have any other headphones on hand? Please provide some details and we will try to help.


Sure, I listen to both from my PC that runs Tidal Master Player, NFB28 is connected via Optical Toslink, Ares is via USB. Then Ares connected via XLRs (Neotech UP-OCC cables)  and NFB28 via RCA cables (Monolith USA)  to the Stax 006tII amp with CCS-Mode plate. (CCS-plate controls the current on tubes with help of MOSFET transistors instead 30kOhm resistors in old Stax amp.), them Stax L500 headphones.
I thought Stax amp and headphones are so fast and detailed that I will hear any differences is sources..  or I just have to give a time to Ares to be burned. 



]eep said:


> But like anything; you won't notice it at first. It takes a bit of training to discern the difference. That doesn't mean that the difference is small or meaningless you need to listen for different things that you're not used to pay attention to otherwise with other transducers or sources.


I know what you mean and I was ready to detect such kind of things.. I am about a year in this Ares thread, but want to note I just started listening to Ares, may be all this things you described will come in next future. Actually I didn't listen to Ares more than one hour at all. Just first touch and test. I hope it will be more noticeable in future, but anyway thanks for help and wish to describe such a thin things. 


]eep said:


> Appreciating the fine things in life always takes some training. But when you notice the difference you will have found a delight that you do not want to live without.


This is absolutely true )). We all learn to understand our feelings.. This happens whole the life for someones... it is like to be a Tester man as professional.. feelings need to be learned and described ))


----------



## Chodi (Jul 2, 2020)

armani006 said:


> I left Ares for burning, but don't know how long it must be on this stage.. may be some changes will come after one week.. I heard this somewhere earlier in this thread
> 
> 
> Sure, I listen to both from my PC that runs Tidal Master Player, NFB28 is connected via Optical Toslink, Ares is via USB. Then Ares connected via XLRs (Neotech UP-OCC cables)  and NFB28 via RCA cables (Monolith USA)  to the Stax 006tII amp with CCS-Mode plate. (CCS-plate controls the current on tubes with help of MOSFET transistors instead 30kOhm resistors in old Stax amp.), them Stax L500 headphones.
> ...


Tidal has 3 available quality choices. Make certain you choose lossless 44.1. Then set your Ares II to OS mode and select slow filter.


----------



## gto88

How is the quality of Ares?
I have bad experience for service of long distance manufacture, ex, Kennerton
far away in Russia, I sent back a HP and it is still on its way after two weeks, and cost me $73 dollars.


----------



## armani006

Chodi said:


> Make certain you choose lossless 44.1. Then set your Ares II to OS mode and select slow filter.


I can choose OS mode, but how 44.1? System choose rate automatically.. if the sound stream goes in 192kHz it means Ares works in 48kHz x4 mode.
Actually I thought NOS mode sounds more natural and "analog"...


----------



## iFi audio

]eep said:


> That doesn't mean that the difference is small or meaningless you need to listen for different things that you're not used to pay attention to otherwise with other transducers or sources.



At times differences between DACs can be quite surprising in how audible they are. As with all things audio, it just takes a bit to get used to them.


----------



## ]eep

iFi audio said:


> At times differences between DACs can be quite surprising in how audible they are. As with all things audio, it just takes a bit to get used to them.


That is true but a DAC has many parts and in dac's the output stage is very important. But we're not debating output stages here. Listening for changes caused by the actual dac-chip/array needs some getting used to (not to mention inputs). At first they all sound the same since the frequency response is ruler flat. But that's not what makes the difference in dac's, the vertical/amplitude. It's in the lateral, timing /phase purity. That takes an open mind and new training. That doesn't mean you didn't hear it before but that you didn't notice it. You feel it but you can't put your finger on it why you like it better.


----------



## Chodi

armani006 said:


> I can choose OS mode, but how 44.1? System choose rate automatically.. if the sound stream goes in 192kHz it means Ares works in 48kHz x4 mode.
> Actually I thought NOS mode sounds more natural and "analog"...


For what it's worth, I used to own the same Stax amp and headphones without the amp mod. I bought them years ago when they were sold as a set (might have been a promotion at the time). I sold them months later  largely because I found them uncomfortable and they lacked bass. I am not a basshead, far from it, I listen mostly to classical music. At that time I owned other headphones and amps so that was my beginning and end to my Stax experience. I was not willing to spend much more on their higher gear to complete the experiment. I do not have Tidal so I cannot advise you on that but you are correct that if it is sending 192khz it should work fine on your Ares II and automatically indicate 4x mode. Your preference for NOS vs OS is entirely your choice. The mids and highs on your Stax are very resolving so if you cannot hear a difference between the two dacs on any music, in your case it would seem to be some other aspect of your chain. I have a Sabre 9018 dac around and I can hear the difference between the Sabre and the Ares II immediately. You could blindfold me and I would pick it out quickly. Not even close (I admit some people might prefer the sound of the Sabre dac). Something in your system is holding you back. One of the strongest features of the Ares II is the ability to create a 3D soundstage, wide and deep, with lots of air. If you are not getting that then something is wrong. Just my opinion.


----------



## armani006

Chodi said:


> The mids and highs on your Stax are very resolving so if you cannot hear a difference between the two dacs on any music, in your case it would seem to be some other aspect of your chain. I have a Sabre 9018 dac around and I can hear the difference between the Sabre and the Ares II immediately. You could blindfold me and I would pick it out quickly. Not even close (I admit some people might prefer the sound of the Sabre dac). Something in your system is holding you back.


thank you, I will look for any single details in chain, and I will check Ares after it burn about 4-5 days.. may this also give changes in SQ.



Chodi said:


> I sold them months later largely because I found them uncomfortable and they lacked bass. I am not a basshead, far from it, I listen mostly to classical music. At that time I owned other headphones and amps so that was my beginning and end to my Stax experience.


I would definitely do the same if I not order modded pads from Vesper audio. I was very dissatisfied with the bass in Stax headphones, but with thick (2.5cm) lambskin pads the bass in Stax sounds just like in a normal dynamic headphones, this is "must have" feature in any rectangular Stax headphones.. (here is my review -  https://www.head-fi.org/threads/vesper-audio-custom-earpads-impressions-thread.864077/post-15524690)


----------



## Gabehcuod

Who cares, life is empty and meaningless. Its a piece of metal and silicone.


----------



## Pr3ssAltF4

Got mine today 

Initial impressions are pretty good.


----------



## alvin1118

Some tricks for the Ares II:

Keep it on 24/7 for best sound
Use only the RCA or XLR output, but not both at the same time - the output is shared, connecting both may degrade the SQ
Configuration Guide for NOS/OS: https://www.denafrips.com/single-post/2020/03/12/ARES-II-DAC---Configuration 

Enjoy the music!

Cheers,
Alvin Chee
www.vinshineaudio.com


----------



## gto88

alvin1118 said:


> Use only the RCA or XLR output, but not both at the same time - the output is shared, connecting both may degrade the SQ


that is so inconvenient, I connect all my dac output to different amp, and might use both amp to compare HPs.
This one at a time is a deal breaker to me.


----------



## alvin1118

For ultimate sound-quality, it's advisable to use either output. 

There is a work around, if and only if the amp(s) are *single-ended*:

Ares II is a true-balanced DAC. RCA draws the +ve signal from the R-2R network arrays 
An XLR/RCA adapter can be used to tap the -ve signal (Pin1/Pin3)
Connect RCA to amp(A), connect XLR/RCA adapter to amp(B)
You may then use both output at the same time.

Cheers!


----------



## gto88

@alvin1118 , that is good to know, thanks.


----------



## Chodi

alvin1118 said:


> For ultimate sound-quality, it's advisable to use either output.
> 
> There is a work around, if and only if the amp(s) are *single-ended*:
> 
> ...


I have both connected but only one amp on at a time. I don't find any problem doing that as long as both amps are not on at the same time.


----------



## Shane D

alvin1118 said:


> Some tricks for the Ares II:
> 
> Keep it on 24/7 for best sound
> Use only the RCA or XLR output, but not both at the same time - the output is shared, connecting both may degrade the SQ
> ...



I am thinking about upgrading my current DAC (SMSL SU-8). I have narrowed it down to the Ares II and BF2.
My current set-up is running split cables from the RCA and XLR outputs to give me the option of using any one of four amps, depending on mood.

Are you saying that only one single amp should be connected at one time for the best sound from an Ares II?


----------



## iFi audio

]eep said:


> That is true but a DAC has many parts and in dac's the output stage is very important



In DACs everything is important; digital input, D/A conversion, I/V conversion, mechanical stability, power supply and there's still more than this. You name it and it's important in one way or another


----------



## ]eep

iFi audio said:


> In DACs everything is important; digital input, D/A conversion, I/V conversion, mechanical stability, power supply and there's still more than this. You name it and it's important in one way or another


So true. But let me redefine what I said: the output stage is often underrated or plain badly engineered and it can ruin sound quality, expectations and reputations. In that sense it's very important. In fact it shouldn't be all that hard to make a good outputstage since I've done a few myself (not made a board but let's keep it at; heavily modified and simplified). Just keep it simple and straightforward and get the signal out as pure as possible, since that is what the Ares II is all about. 

That's why I won't touch that rip-off 'Musician' with a ten pole rod. The output stage rings alarmbells for me.


----------



## Chodi

alvin1118 said:


> For ultimate sound-quality, it's advisable to use either output.
> 
> There is a work around, if and only if the amp(s) are *single-ended*:
> 
> ...


I would like to get your reason that a signal output connected to rca, but not in use, can degrade the the xlr output? Other than possible RF I cannot see how this is possible unless the Ares II is connected to 2 active amplifiers. Please explain.


----------



## alvin1118

Hello @Chodi 

That's correct. The RF noise from the interconnect may have an adverse-effect. 
Speaking of personal preference, or rather, my evil OCD inner-self, I would prefer to connect one output at a time


----------



## sajunky

alvin1118 said:


> Hello @Chodi
> 
> That's correct. The RF noise from the interconnect may have an adverse-effect.


It doesn't if the output stage is using zero-feedback output amplifier.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

alvin1118 said:


> Hello @Chodi
> 
> That's correct. The RF noise from the interconnect may have an adverse-effect.
> Speaking of personal preference, or rather, my evil OCD inner-self, I would prefer to connect one output at a time



Maybe a switchable output would be a reasonable "continuous improvement?"

I have this issue with other DACs, btw, this issue affects many DACs, it is good to hear Alvin's honest comments and advice


----------



## gto88

gimmeheadroom said:


> Maybe a switchable output would be a reasonable "continuous improvement?"
> 
> I have this issue with other DACs, btw, this issue affects many DACs, it is good to hear Alvin's honest comments and advice


If that is true, I either listen to degraded SQ, or I can unplug one of set from my dac and
I can hear sq improved?  How do I check if mine is the case Or not, really.


----------



## gto88

Btw, @alvin1118 what xlr to rca adapter you’re referred to? Thanks.


----------



## dlyz (Jul 5, 2020)

I just bought the Ares II on behalf of my friend. It will be shipped to me and i will play with it for a couple months before shipping it to him by October. ^^

My question today is, does keeping it on 24/7 count as burn in or do i need to play a signal through the Ares II?

I am excited to try the dac and worried that it will pawn my AGD DAC19 10th Annv. Just bought AGD Master 10 so i would love to keep it all AGD haha... OCD... I need to stop tempting myself.


----------



## Gabehcuod

Guess what boys. They make this cool device called a preamplifier, and not only does it give you a volume knob, but it gives you multiple inputs and outputs. Isn't that crazy?  😲  You no longer need to run any splitters. 🤯


----------



## Chodi

Gabehcuod said:


> Guess what boys. They make this cool device called a preamplifier, and not only does it give you a volume knob, but it gives you multiple inputs and outputs. Isn't that crazy?  😲  You no longer need to run any splitters. 🤯


You are correct of course. Only problem is that if you don't want to degrade the signal and have balanced option you will need another expensive component and cables.


----------



## Gabehcuod

If you're worried about multiple components, you should have bought a receiver.


----------



## armani006

dlyz said:


> I am excited to try the dac and worried that it will pawn my AGD DAC19 10th Annv. Just bought AGD Master 10 so i would love to keep it all AGD haha... OCD... I need to stop tempting myself.


it would be interesting to know you comparisons..  I have NFB28 but still burning Ares II 24/7 for 5 days and didn't listen to it.


----------



## adeadcrab

Anyone compared the Ares or other Denafrips to Soekris DACs? 1421 or 1521?


----------



## armani006

adeadcrab said:


> Anyone compared the Ares or other Denafrips to Soekris DACs? 1421 or 1521?


Yes, he did ()


----------



## ]eep

Chodi said:


> You are correct of course. Only problem is that if you don't want to degrade the signal and have balanced option you will need another expensive component and cables.


No, not necessarily. I use a passive pre-... switch. Just some relays and a volume-pot, 3 in, 2 out of which 1 direct (no volume). Doesn't do anything with the signal. I use the 2nd out with volume for my Genesis bass-amp. You can het such a thing for balanced too I'm sure. Mine cost €45, balanced will cost more I suppose.


----------



## iFi audio (Jul 6, 2020)

]eep said:


> the output stage is often underrated or plain badly engineered and it can ruin sound quality



In some cases it is, but it's good to see that these days more attention is given to things other that just DAC chips 



]eep said:


> Mine cost €45, balanced will cost more I suppose.



Passives can get expensive too   

https://www.thebespokeaudiocompany.com/our-product


----------



## dlyz (Jul 6, 2020)

armani006 said:


> it would be interesting to know you comparisons..  I have NFB28 but still burning Ares II 24/7 for 5 days and didn't listen to it.



Sure, i will come back and give some thoughts on it later after it arrives and burn in about a week. Are you playing any signal thru the dac to burn in or just keeping it turned on?

I will be listening thru speakers (Dynaudio S1.4LE).


----------



## ]eep

armani006 said:


> Yes, he did ()



one of the few video reviewers that comes across as honest, sympathetic, knowledgeable and sincere (like Guttenberg, Analog planet and PS-Audio that I can think of). 

Funny what he says about sub-1k dacs. My dac is a modified Philips 1543 x4 that i compared to many others including a 1541+6022 tubes and an expensive Lampizator and it still holds up (=betters them) bc of the output stage i made.  Mine cost me beer money plus 1h tweaking and some cheap parts. I'm hoping the Ares II will better it or I'll be disappointed. That means I'll have to do it myself. Again. But that's not what I expect since it's fully discrete. And has a better input array.


----------



## Pr3ssAltF4

]eep said:


> one of the few video reviewers that comes across as honest, sympathetic, knowledgeable and sincere (like Guttenberg, Analog planet and PS-Audio that I can think of).
> 
> Funny what he says about sub-1k dacs. My dac is a modified Philips 1543 x4 that i compared to many others including a 1541+6022 tubes and an expensive Lampizator and it still holds up (=betters them) bc of the output stage i made.  Mine cost me beer money plus 1h tweaking and some cheap parts. I'm hoping the Ares II will better it or I'll be disappointed. That means I'll have to do it myself. Again. But that's not what I expect since it's fully discrete. And has a better input array.


So I just got mine. Gotta say, in comparison to the Enog 2, it's night and day. ****ing loving it. I would say it could be tweaked, but I don't have the money to try everything or find exactly what I need. This does justice to what I listen on and what I listen to. I think that's high enough praise 

Listening with the Gilmore Lite Mk2 and the RS-08 (which I got today) along with my eikons, clears, and elegias.


----------



## armani006

dlyz said:


> Are you playing any signal thru the dac to burn in or just keeping it turned on?


Yes, I connect my Samsung Tablet via USB and HibyMusic player that supports music transfer via USB, Tablet lies for days long, no problems, track list consist of records with different bit-rates and kHz.



]eep said:


> one of the few video reviewers that comes across as honest, sympathetic, knowledgeable and sincere (like Guttenberg, Analog planet and PS-Audio that I can think of).


I believe his reports...


----------



## ]eep

armani006 said:


> I believe his reports...


That is a beautiful compliment in this age of 'influencers' and 'fake news' (corporate copy paste press release propaganda).


----------



## armani006

]eep said:


> That is a beautiful compliment in this age of 'influencers' and 'fake news' (corporate copy paste press release propaganda).


Sometimes I even don't believe my ears cus I don't have such expensive Hi-End equipment to hear detailed differences in reviewed item, so I see reviews from those who has it. 

According to Ares II, after one week of burn I would say that in OS mode with Slow filter I can define wider sound stage and wider in depth not left-right, this is in comparison with A-GD NFB28. Also the feeling of musicality is seems like a bit more in Ares, but not sure if it is not just my subjective feeling.. I used Stax L500 with 006tII amp. 
So NFB28 goes to second hand market..


----------



## PopZeus

Yet another audiophile trades their chip DAC for an R-2R....


----------



## ProLoL

Just got my ares 2 today, delivered 3 days after it has been shipped, couldn't ask for a faster delivery and service!
The built in usb interface is awesome, no need for an external DDC.


----------



## iFi audio

]eep said:


> My dac is a modified Philips 1543 x4 that i compared to many others including a 1541+6022 tubes and an expensive Lampizator and it still holds up (=betters them) bc of the output stage i made.



TDA1543 is solid. In our AMR 77 machines we used TDA1541A double crowns  

Which Lampizator was it if I may ask?


----------



## dlyz

armani006 said:


> Also the feeling of musicality is seems like a bit more in Ares, but not sure if it is not just my subjective feeling.. I used Stax L500 with 006tII amp.
> So NFB28 goes to second hand market..



Definitely more musical, analogish. R2R is the way to go for me. When i got my DAC19 10th 3.5yrs back, i was smiling to myself from the first minute i powered it on. Then i took it to my friend's house when i went into his town (also mum's hometown) and he was blown away. He is the one getting Ares II which i will be using for 2 months before sending it to him. R2R bug got him too. I literally packed my dac in a backpack and hand carried it on a Airbus A320 to his house. The wait is killin me.


----------



## armani006

dlyz said:


> Definitely more musical, analogish. R2R is the way to go for me. When i got my DAC19 10th 3.5yrs back, i was smiling to myself from the first minute i powered it on. Then i took it to my friend's house when i went into his town (also mum's hometown) and he was blown away. He is the one getting Ares II which i will be using for 2 months before sending it to him. R2R bug got him too. I literally packed my dac in a backpack and hand carried it on a Airbus A320 to his house. The wait is killin me.


Your truth.. R2R is something more musical, sounds different. Your sample is already burned as I understand and burning it also not a mistake.. I don't say it changes SQ dramatically but preferable..


----------



## ProLoL

Does the NOS filter applies slow/sharp too?


----------



## gto88

ProLoL said:


> Does the NOS filter applies slow/sharp too?


Being study this, NOS/OS,fast/slow provide 4 settings, there is video explains how to set them.


----------



## ProLoL

Hey, thanks I know how to set them, my question was if the slow / sharp also applies when I'm on NOS mode.


----------



## gto88

ProLoL said:


> Hey, thanks I know how to set them, my question was if the slow / sharp also applies when I'm on NOS mode.


per my understanding, it is, nd it seems a new addition for Ares II.
Maybe @alvin1118 can help clarify it.


----------



## DesignTaylor

Another convert. Got my Ares II about two weeks ago. Did some A/B testing with a few dacs I have (nothing exotic) and could tell right away that it had something special to offer. After listening for a while now I'd describe the sounds as open, quick, and impactful, but not harsh or fatiguing. I don't consider it overly warm, just natural. For me, it's hitting that sweet spot of clarity without feeling clinical.


----------



## ProLoL

The only problem with the ares2 is that if you start to listen to music you don't stop even though you planned doing something else.


----------



## sajunky

ProLoL said:


> Hey, thanks I know how to set them, my question was if the slow / sharp also applies when I'm on NOS mode.


My understanding is that digital filter in Ares II is always active (also in NOS mode), it cannot be turned off. It is like in first version oversampoling could not be turned off. Reports saying that there is no much difference between NOS and OS mode confirm this.

It means there is still no true NOS R2R mode. One giant step, not a complete walk.


----------



## armani006

sajunky said:


> Reports saying that there is no much difference between NOS and OS mode confirm this.


Wrong, read ASR thread about Ares II page 8.


----------



## ProLoL (Jul 10, 2020)

The difference is significant. I use the NOS mostly with my bright headphones and OS/sharp or OS/slow with my dull speakers.
OS/slow is in the middle, not too bright nor too rolled off.

If anyone had a Soekris dac before it'll be like this:
OS/sharp = red filter,
OS/slow = orange filter,
NOS = black / no light filter.

OS/slow is definitely the sweet spot.


----------



## ]eep

iFi audio said:


> TDA1543 is solid. In our AMR 77 machines we used TDA1541A double crowns
> 
> Which Lampizator was it if I may ask?


Well of course you may ask... only I'm not sure what type it was, it is too long ago and it was a casual friend who brought it with him. He had it custom made and went to Poland to get it tweaked. If you ask me to guess it was a 1541 with 6022 or ecc88 tubes. The sound was good, a bit rough like listening blues in a bar vs a classical concert in a concert hall. And it was tuned too loud (tubestage) which was easy to ascertain with soprano or pno. Please don't judge Lukasz for just this sample, he has made great strides and i certainly don't want to criticize him for a one-of sample from 10y ago.


----------



## ]eep

ProLoL said:


> Does the NOS filter applies slow/sharp too?


These are two different things but they do influence each other. (N)OS has a bearing in what goes in; 44.1 or 172.4 kHz (a digital proximation of smaller steps but no actual information). Steep or slow filtering happens to what comes out (and is therefore analog like speaker filters and has effect on phase and high frequencies).

What happens if you oversample, you push the filings to higher frequencies (the difference between a gradual slope and steps, if your steps are smaller you need to file off less to get a smooth slope). If the rubbish moves higher you don't have to filter as steep and a gentler filtee means less temporal smearing and distortion. In theory... 

In theory this is all a very good idea. In practice, it is not. This is my personal opinion based on lots of experimenting and first and foremost listening with actual MUSIC. Music is not the same as a testsignal. What seems horrible and very obviously audible simply vanishes with actual music (what would be atrocious to humans and scare all pets into cardiac arrest would be music with 0dB level at >10 kHz). I need to elaborate a bit on this; R2R and DS behave differently when it comes to HF hash. DS produces a lot of unnatural ugly HF noise and really needs to be filtered with substantial filters (plus in all cases output V amplification). R2R HF noise is different; more benign and just less. Plus that the output does deliver A but little V, so it often can do with a simple I/V. At least, in the chips i used, my experience is limited. But i could do without any OS, filtering and very basic I/V leaving slight DC-ofset alone. This gives me a very pure signal. Maybe not the most dynamic but very minimalistic and pure. (i expect better input stage and better discrete R2R from the Ares plus DSD decoding).

So, again IMHO, it 's a lot adoo about nothing. Music sounds fine at 44kHz without any filtering. I cant hear any of the hf artifacts anyway, with the occasional exception of rare electronic music that is artificial anyway where you can hear slight whisling tones going the wrong way around. I can't think of any examples other than a frequency sweep. I found that NOS without any filtering (i know it's heresy but I'm anti-religious believer anyway) sounds best and closest to natural and only gets better with REAL HD material. 

Using HD source material is the antidote for fake plastic oversampling. Actual information is better than guestimates. And it also allows for less filtering. Using the minimum of 16-96 is far preferable to any oversampling. Personally i don't miss much by stepping up to 192 or >. And 24 bits is absolutely meaningless (unless you use digital volume). It just takes up space. 

I thought i made a good buy on an old Philips CD player with cdm19 laser and 1543 chips (iirc) but it sounds nowhere near a digital source even on coax out. My guess is the coax is tapped after the usual accompanying upsampling chip. I can't think of any other reason why coax out would sound so different. Of course i can fix it with a mod but i have enough projects going. I might be wrong on this but for me its a confirmation oversampling is not what i want.


----------



## ProLoL (Jul 11, 2020)

You're right, I do love NOS but it's also a matter of taste. I've been in love with my R2R11, which I still am but sometimes I'm missing that OS bite, it all comes down to my mood.


----------



## sajunky

]eep said:


> These are two different things but they do influence each other. (N)OS has a bearing in what goes in; 44.1 or 172.4 kHz (a digital proximation of smaller steps but no actual information). Steep or slow filtering happens to what comes out (and is therefore analog like speaker filters and has effect on phase and high frequencies).
> 
> What happens if you oversample, you push the filings to higher frequencies (the difference between a gradual slope and steps, if your steps are smaller you need to file off less to get a smooth slope). If the rubbish moves higher you don't have to filter as steep and a gentler filtee means less temporal smearing and distortion. In theory...
> 
> ...


You are absoultely right to the conclusion.

A question was what filters apply to the NOS mode. I also cannot answer, as it is not communicated with us clearly.

With oversampling digital filters are deployed, but what happen there? NOS mode do not require any DSP processing before converting to analogue. It is a nice feature of R2R converter. Our ears fill up "missing information" in a different way, wrong information only cause fatigue. According to the Nyquist-Shannon there is no missing information anyway.


----------



## sajunky

ProLoL said:


> You're right, I do love NOS but it's also a matter of taste. I've been in love with my R2R11, which I still am but sometimes I'm missing that OS bite, it all comes down to my mood.


Not only a taste. It is also a matter of music industry focusing on how it sounds on the most popular converters. In result there is a new wave of square music (artists) and a loudness war (studios). If you like such music, you will also prefer DS converters. End of the circle.


----------



## ]eep (Jul 11, 2020)

sajunky said:


> You are absoultely right to the conclusion.
> 
> A question was what filters apply to the NOS mode. I also cannot answer, as it is not communicated with us clearly.
> 
> With oversampling digital filters are deployed, but what happen there? NOS mode do not require any DSP processing before converting to analogue. It is a nice feature of R2R converter. Our ears fill up "missing information" in a different way, wrong information only cause fatigue. According to the Nyquist-Shannon there is no missing information anyway.


I must say i have real trouble understanding you. Your wording is vague, inconcise, or incorrect. So is your logic. Interpreting:
Dsp is/can be used regardless of decoding system. Oversampling is just 1 kind of dsp (digital signal processing). R2R can be used with OS but does not require it (leaving it a matter of taste). Not like DS does because the amount of nasty byproducts in the uhf range where severe filtering is called for. So, i assume that is what you say.

Where i find problem is that our ears can't 'fill up' missing information. Just like a microphone can't play the violin, it can't create. It can however fail to register, delay and distort. It is the brain that interprets the digital signals from the inner ear. That is where it compares the incoming signal with patterns it has stored. If these don't coincide it causes fatigue because there's no or a hardly discernable label on the package.

I get real tired of tossing that Nyquist-Shannon theorem around since it assumes some kind of unshakable truth. It is not. For two reasons this does not apply or has no bearing on the matter. First any anxioma is based on certain presuppositions. The mathematical anxioma here is based on a limited/flawed biological presupposition about the human 'ear'. There can be missing information since it's presuppositions exclude everything exept the 'average human ear' by experts in the information sciences, who are not necessarily experts, or open minded, about biological limits or systems. It is circular reasoning: it cannot be therefore it is not. If the presupposition were that humans in some way or other can hear or discern up to 40kHz the theorem wouldn't change but then suddenly there - would- be missing information. (disclaimer: this theorem does not include any biological parameters, only it is brought up like it is. This is a often used tactic in discussions only it is not truthful).
The other reason is why i said approximation: oversampling assumes a straight line where there is actually a signal curve. If it is not recorded it is missing, if it is not sampled it is missing just as well. If you interpolate you assume information that isn't there. Therefore it is missing. Regardless of if it was there in the first place. 

I realise this might be about semantics but for proper reasoning and resolving power you need proper definitions and wording. And not use debating tricks.


----------



## sajunky

]eep said:


> Where i find problem is that our ears can't 'fill up' missing information. Just like a microphone can't play the violin, it can't create. It can however fail to register, delay and distort. It is the brain that interprets the digital signals from the inner ear. That is where it compares the incoming signal with patterns it has stored. If these don't coincide it causes fatigue because there's no or a hardly discernable label on the package.


Your understanding of my poor language is correct. I don't quote this part which is understood correctly and agreed with.

Believe me, our brain is filling up missing information. A reason is can be very surprising... *Our hearing is not analog, but digital.* Sensors in our ear are pure digital, it is proven. 


]eep said:


> The other reason is why i said approximation: oversampling assumes a straight line where there is actually a signal curve. If it is not recorded it is missing, if it is not sampled it is missing just as well. If you interpolate you assume information that isn't there. Therefore it is missing. Regardless of if it was there in the first place.
> 
> I realise this might be about semantics but for proper reasoning and resolving power you need proper definitions and wording. And not use debating tricks.


   There are no tricks.

Oversampling do not use a straight line, it would be very bad. The basic interpolation method is filling up with zeros samples. Mathematically proven and works. It is based on the origin Nyquist-Shannon sampling theory. It is how most of old CD players do. More sophisticated reconstruction methods were developed using a "window function' (it is a technical term, not a MS Windows things). It requires a numeric processor, called DSP (Digital Signal Processor). One of the first DSP decoder chip was from Pacific Micronics PMD100, circa 2000. Scientists still didn't get to the agreement what is the best reconstruction method, so it is understood that a new samples are not created ideal.

As I mentioned before our hearing is digital. We have our own reconstruction method. Our filters are estimated as 6th order, but do not create overshots of any kind nor a phase errors. In a higher level of processing (sound recognition) samples are compared to the known templates. It is an efficient way, it requires a minimum processing. If during oversampling missing samples are filled with a wrong information, our brain may miss templates and then it requires more processing to recognise objects. How it is done, is still unknown. However it is known that when number of objects is increasing, we are not able to reconise individual objects, our processing power is exhausted. By example we can't recognise individual violins (with a specific - always different - attack on strings) anymore, the entire string section is blended into one sound. With the increasing processing required, a fatigure comes out soon. It is why I want to feed my brain with the sound I can enjoy for hours without a fatigue.

I am very content from a fact that more and more R2R converters come back to the market like Denafrips. It is possible that new silicon chips development will follow, it would bring prices down. For now I am very satisfied with a portable Nobsound 8x TDA1387 DAC/HPA, It givers a true R2R sound. Production of these chips had been stopped long time ago.


----------



## armani006

just leave it here..
https://darko.audio/2020/06/kih-77-chinese-chimera/


----------



## iFi audio

]eep said:


> Well of course you may ask... only I'm not sure what type it was, it is too long ago and it was a casual friend who brought it with him. He had it custom made and went to Poland to get it tweaked. If you ask me to guess it was a 1541 with 6022 or ecc88 tubes. The sound was good, a bit rough like listening blues in a bar vs a classical concert in a concert hall. And it was tuned too loud (tubestage) which was easy to ascertain with soprano or pno. Please don't judge Lukasz for just this sample, he has made great strides and i certainly don't want to criticize him for a one-of sample from 10y ago.



All good! Lampizator expanded quite a lot and its products are different now than they were a decade ago, yup. Lukas detoured to DHT tubes too, and that alone changes a lot


----------



## DACtator

Hallo to the forum. I got my Ares ii some 2 weeks ago and i have a problem with the sample rates. As far as i know the Ares is supposed to switch it´s internal sampling rate automatically acccording to the signal it receives. I downloaded some HiRes material with 96kH and DSD stuff and played it with Foobar and VLC, but the indicaction LCD never ever changed from the 44,1 kH, regardless of OS or NOS.  It only does when i manually switch it in the Sound Control Panel, but thats not the point. Is there a problem with the Ares and the driver or am i too dumb to configurate Foobar to my needs? And yes, i selected the Ares a the dedicated audio gear in Foobar.....


----------



## ProLoL

DACtator said:


> Hallo to the forum. I got my Ares ii some 2 weeks ago and i have a problem with the sample rates. As far as i know the Ares is supposed to switch it´s internal sampling rate automatically acccording to the signal it receives. I downloaded some HiRes material with 96kH and DSD stuff and played it with Foobar and VLC, but the indicaction LCD never ever changed from the 44,1 kH, regardless of OS or NOS.  It only does when i manually switch it in the Sound Control Panel, but thats not the point. Is there a problem with the Ares and the driver or am i too dumb to configurate Foobar to my needs? And yes, i selected the Ares a the dedicated audio gear in Foobar.....



It's simple, lets say I listen to 88k, it'll show 44k indicator + 2x indicator, 2 * 44 = 88.


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## DACtator

Hallo,
actually i just have 96k, but basically the 48 and 2x should show up, just they never did. Is it possible that Foobar is downsampling everything to 44,1k even if the file is shown to be 96k?


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## ProLoL (Jul 17, 2020)

Are you using asio or "DS:Speakers Denafrips"?
If you use DS:Speakers you'll be using windows sound mixer which is set to whatever sample you chose in sound control panel. Asio will bypass windows sound mixer and let you listen to the file directly without windows oversample.


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## sajunky (Jul 17, 2020)

ProLoL said:


> Are you using asio or "ds speakers out"?


Yes, he does DS output. He said it changes when setting up sample rate in the Sound Control Panel.

@DACtator. Follow this guide for setting up Foobar in bit-perfect mode:
https://diyaudioheaven.wordpress.com/digital/pc-software/foobar-2000-for-dummies/


----------



## gto88

sajunky said:


> Yes, he does DS output. He said it changes when setting up sample rate in the Sound Control Panel.
> 
> @DACtator. Follow this guide for setting up Foobar in bit-perfect mode:
> https://diyaudioheaven.wordpress.com/digital/pc-software/foobar-2000-for-dummies/


+1, that is the guide to go.


----------



## alvin1118

Hello guys,

We would like to inform you that the new version Thesycon 4.86 of Windows USBAudio Driver is available.








NEW:

- Support for Windows 10 version 2004
- Various improvements and bug fixes
The history file with changes can be downloaded at:
http://www.thesycon.de/usbaudio/TUSBAudio_history.txt

Please download it here: link
https://www.denafrips.com/support

Many thanks.

Yours sincerely,
Alvin Chee
www.vinshineaudio.com


----------



## DACtator

gto88 said:


> +1, that is the guide to go.


Thanks, now its working


----------



## ProLoL

For windows users, you also set 44.1/16 on windows mixer? windows oversample just adds unnatural smoothness, padding the 1 with more 0's.
How many samples you prefer in denafrips control panel under buffer settings?


----------



## Chodi

DACtator said:


> Hallo to the forum. I got my Ares ii some 2 weeks ago and i have a problem with the sample rates. As far as i know the Ares is supposed to switch it´s internal sampling rate automatically acccording to the signal it receives. I downloaded some HiRes material with 96kH and DSD stuff and played it with Foobar and VLC, but the indicaction LCD never ever changed from the 44,1 kH, regardless of OS or NOS.  It only does when i manually switch it in the Sound Control Panel, but thats not the point. Is there a problem with the Ares and the driver or am i too dumb to configurate Foobar to my needs? And yes, i selected the Ares a the dedicated audio gear in Foobar.....


If you are sending 96khz pcm that light on the dac  should confirm 96k. Same for dsd. The dsd indicator lights when receiving dsd.  If it is not I think you are not sending those sample rates. Perhaps your software is downsampling the data?


----------



## armani006

When I use Foobar2000 with ASIO Ares shows appropriate frequency of track, doesn't matter what set in windows (it is set to 24bit 384kHz), when I use Tidal and windows set to 24bit 384kHz,  Ares shows this frequency.. meaning 384kHz


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## ProLoL

Yes, asio bypasses windows mixer. My question is towards those who listen to youtube or watch movies etc, that's where windows sound comes into account, as higher the oversample the farther the distance from the original source, I hear artificial smoothing.


----------



## sajunky

ProLoL said:


> Yes, asio bypasses windows mixer. My question is towards those who listen to youtube or watch movies etc, that's where windows sound comes into account, as higher the oversample the farther the distance from the original source, I hear artificial smoothing.


WASAPI exclusive mode also bypass Windows Sound Control Panel, but I understand your problem. A player must know how to speak to WASAPI, it is a different software interface. For a Web browser an extension may be available. Did you try asio4all? It installs as a virtual device driver.


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## ProLoL (Jul 18, 2020)

sajunky said:


> WASAPI exclusive mode also bypass Windows Sound Control Panel, but I understand your problem. A player must know how to speak to WASAPI, it is a different software interface. For a Web browser an extension may be available. Did you try asio4all? It installs as a virtual device driver.



Yes I have, it does impact the sound as I can play with the latency and buffer but it doesn't really bypasses windows mixer, if it did, changing sample rate on windows mixer wouldn't effect the sound, but it does as it's not really bypassed.


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## sajunky (Jul 18, 2020)

ProLoL said:


> Yes I have, it does impact the sound as I can play with the latency and buffer but it doesn't really bypasses windows mixer, if it did, changing sample rate on windows mixer wouldn't effect the sound, but it does as it's not really bypassed.


Strange, something is wrong indeed. asio4all use WDM Kernel-Streaming, not a newer Direct Sound interface.  Did you check Off-Line Settings during installation? This is what I remember - it was important to install configuration tool.


----------



## ProLoL

Yea, I've checked both options in the installation.


----------



## sajunky (Jul 19, 2020)

I can't help with asio4all right now, I don't have it installed, sorry.

On another thought, you can use Kodi to play youtube with an official plugin. In options set both Audio Decoder Device and Audio Passthrough Device to WASAPI.

In Windows ensure that you have your audio properties set correctly:
Advanced tab: priority high and allow exclusive access
Levels tab: Level 100%, balance 100%
Enhancements tab:  Disable all enhancements
Supported formats tab (if present): are all supported formats on the list?.

Some of later options are only valid when Kodi (or other programs accessing WASAPI interface) decide for some reason to work without exclusive access. I know that Foobar refuse to work when exclusive mode is not granted.


----------



## gto88

Finally, placed order of Ares II.
Its dsd1024 and PCM1536 spec, should stop me on pursuing resolution for some times.
At its price, I don't think any one in the market can catch up in near future.

I had Gustard A18, and like the AK4499 sound, but it is designed with a power button at the back
is a bad decision and I sent it back for that.


----------



## se7enhafiz

Hi,

Received my Ares II few days ago. Currently about 40 hrs burn in and sound is slightly sibilance and forward, but not harsh. my amp is Audio-gd Master-19 and Arya HP. I received both my amp and dac on the same day. Do u guys think longer burn in would fix the sibilance issue?


----------



## sajunky (Jul 23, 2020)

Maybe try and wait little bit. However I wouldn't blame Ares nor Master 19 for sibilants.

Master 19 produce incredible transients, but there are no sibilants even in my cheapest A-GD product R2R11 HP. The only suspect is Arya and in a such case it is not going to help.


----------



## se7enhafiz

sajunky said:


> Maybe try and wait little bit. However I wouldn't blame Ares not Master 19 for sibilants.
> 
> Master 19 produce incredible transients, but there are no sibilants even in my cheapest A-GD product R2R11 HP. The only suspect is Arya and in a such case it is not going to help.



You are right. Might be cable as well..all have not burn in.. Chord C USB and Chord Clearway XLR.. thanx for the reply mate..


----------



## alvin1118

se7enhafiz said:


> Hi,
> 
> Received my Ares II few days ago. Currently about 40 hrs burn in and sound is slightly sibilance and forward, but not harsh. my amp is Audio-gd Master-19 and Arya HP. I received both my amp and dac on the same day. Do u guys think longer burn in would fix the sibilance issue?



Hi @se7enhafiz 

Did you try to set the NOS/OS and filters? 
Guide: https://www.denafrips.com/single-post/2020/03/12/ARES-II-DAC---Configuration

I'd be very interested of your findings 

Cheers,
Alvin
www.vinshineaudio.com


----------



## gto88

It has been burnt in for 100 hours before shipping, right?


----------



## ProLoL

se7enhafiz said:


> Hi,
> 
> Received my Ares II few days ago. Currently about 40 hrs burn in and sound is slightly sibilance and forward, but not harsh. my amp is Audio-gd Master-19 and Arya HP. I received both my amp and dac on the same day. Do u guys think longer burn in would fix the sibilance issue?



The sound is quite laidback for me with 0 sibilance. It's the rest of your chain most likely and you should probably use NOS/Slow filter.


----------



## armani006

Since the ARES II doesn't support MQA naturally, does anyone know of any cheap streamer / music transport or just a MQA-enabled DAC that allows data to be transferred via USB to an external DAC? It must be a device with a function that allows music data to bypass the internal DAC, just use the MQA decoder chip and send that data to USB.
Hope I explain good to understand. For example Bluesound Node 2i uses internal DS chip always to decode MQA, it is bad idea to send then this data to R2R DAC like Ares, this loose native R2R sound because of DS factor in front.


----------



## ProLoL

I wonder why to listen to MQA in the first place.


----------



## armani006

ProLoL said:


> I wonder why to listen to MQA in the first place.


second, but anyway important


----------



## gto88

it is said that MQA is designed for streaming, it doesn't increase SQ or resolution, just
to make HD sound file smaller to transfer on internet.  It is getting less an issue on 5G days.


----------



## armani006

gto88 said:


> it is said that MQA is designed for streaming, it doesn't increase SQ or resolution, just
> to make HD sound file smaller to transfer on internet.  It is getting less an issue on 5G days.


agreed, but first - 5G is not anywhere, second - I have cable internet a home, it doesn't matter what kind of wireless networks' generation is outside of my home.. 
Make service with native FLAC 24bit -192 kHz or more tracks and I will use it no problem... 
third, MQA has master level tracks, which means the quality of FLAC tracks (900 kbps). fourth, it's very convenient to have all the my tracks in one account without downloading them to your local PC.


----------



## ]eep (Jul 24, 2020)

I can't speak out of experience (yet) but given the technology I can't think of a way the Ares would sound sibilant. My own dac is very much like the Ares and it's a fine cure for my Takstar planar. Maybe the word cure is a bit ill chosen and the planar hp just reveals the artificial excess detail of the sd 9038 dac. However, with dacs these are all nuances compared to headphones etc. It's a matter of synergy but the influence of transducers is usually a lot larger. Though sometimes components can surprise.

My Ares II is on the way, so soon I can join the club. Thanks to Alvin for the kind service.

Stepping in on MQA: I decided it's not an issue for me since i don't really plan on using a streaming service (I don't like subscription systems /drm as commercial model plus i get overwhelmed by the number of albums i don't want). But in itself  MQA is a good idea; more music information in a more compact container. It's HD quality in cd size storage. Personally I appreciate HD quality but 24-192 takes up a lot of space. 16-96 takes up only about 25% of the space (500mb io 2gb/album) and sounds comparable (ie very close and notibly better than redbook at 25% extra space 400 vs 500mb) so it's not hard to imagine MQA manages to squeeze out a little extra high frequency info. So its not just about reducing bandwidth. Its the other way around. And decoding data can always be done by software (wasn't that just what software does?).


----------



## se7enhafiz

Regarding on my case that my system sound sibilant, It is now very smooth with zero sibilant. Definitely not because of the Ares II. It is caused by my fairly new Chord XLR..now the cable has been properly break in. WOW... Ares II sounds AMAZING.. If this is the house sound of Denafrips DAC, I can see that I would go on upgrading to their higher end offerings in the future.. 

Anyone here upgrade to other Denafrips DAC from Ares II?

Thanx..


----------



## ProLoL

se7enhafiz said:


> Regarding on my case that my system sound sibilant, It is now very smooth with zero sibilant. Definitely not because of the Ares II. It is caused by my fairly new Chord XLR..now the cable has been properly break in. WOW... Ares II sounds AMAZING.. If this is the house sound of Denafrips DAC, I can see that I would go on upgrading to their higher end offerings in the future..
> 
> Anyone here upgrade to other Denafrips DAC from Ares II?
> 
> Thanx..



Gets even better with more burn in, like a good whisky.


----------



## gto88

I read somewhere, said r2r circuit needs warmup, is it true?


----------



## sajunky

True. It needs hundred hours to relax structural tensions in resistors,drivers and solder joints. More time than an usual capacitors forming. Then, in my case (R2R11) it requires half an hour to achieve operational temperature and sound optimal.


----------



## smallcaps

Thanks everyone for the great information afforded in this thread. Really helpful so far!

I'm about to embark on the R2R path, as I've been firmly rooted in the S/D DAC camp for so long, mainly due to costs more than anything. I'm currently deciding on an Ares but want to know if I should consider moving up to the Pontus. As my first and probably last R2R DAC for the next foreseeable future, I just want to make sure I'm getting the most for my money.

Does anyone have any impressions or reflections on the Ares versus the Pontus? Thank you very much for any info you can share!


----------



## NehPets

smallcaps said:


> Thanks everyone for the great information afforded in this thread. Really helpful so far!
> 
> I'm about to embark on the R2R path, as I've been firmly rooted in the S/D DAC camp for so long, mainly due to costs more than anything. I'm currently deciding on an Ares but want to know if I should consider moving up to the Pontus. As my first and probably last R2R DAC for the next foreseeable future, I just want to make sure I'm getting the most for my money.
> 
> Does anyone have any impressions or reflections on the Ares versus the Pontus? Thank you very much for any info you can share!


There's a review of Ares II & Pontus in the pipeline at 6moons.


----------



## smallcaps

NehPets said:


> There's a review of Ares II & Pontus in the pipeline at 6moons.


Ok great thanks for the heads up! Will spend more time researching than and resist pulling the trigger for now. Catching up on the Pegasus reviews and happy there's such a great selection of R2R DACs at around the 1-2k price point. Looking forward to what 6moons says about the Pontus, as the Ares II seems to be a good buy, regardless.


----------



## NehPets

sajunky said:


> True. It needs hundred hours to relax structural tensions in resistors,drivers and solder joints. More time than an usual capacitors forming...


Huh??


----------



## gimmeheadroom

What happened to the EU shipping arrangement for Aeres II? I can't buy it yet because of the situation but I was watching and somehow it changed.


----------



## ProLoL

The sound of the ares 2 after burn in is so good, very immersive, addictive and interesting sound.


----------



## gto88

Received my Ares II today.
initial impression, very good sounding.
And I really like its size, sit on my desk connecting to iFi Pro iCan, just perfect.


----------



## gto88

Ares2 document : The Ares II DAC is a *20Bit* discrete resistor ladder Digital to Analog Converter
Data on web product page:  True balanced *24BIT*  R2R +  6BIT DSD (32 steps FIR Filters)

I believe that the document is wrong.


----------



## sajunky (Jul 31, 2020)

@gto88. 20-bit may be indicative of bit accuracy, Resolution of the ladder is 24-bit (how steps are generated). Both are correct.

Accuracy of 20-bit is good enough. It can't be better, really. Enjoy music.


----------



## ]eep

gimmeheadroom said:


> What happened to the EU shipping arrangement for Aeres II? I can't buy it yet because of the situation but I was watching and somehow it changed.


 I just received mine (NL). It was in stock and everything went fine. I payed with the paypal button and contacted them (Alvin) on WhatsApp. Very satisfied. I will set it up later and report then about the sound.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

]eep said:


> I just received mine (NL). It was in stock and everything went fine. I payed with the paypal button and contacted them (Alvin) on WhatsApp. Very satisfied. I will set it up later and report then about the sound.



I meant there was an option to handle customs charges to various EU countries and now there is not for the Aeres. Congrats on your new dac


----------



## ]eep

lol. I really needed dac #10 

But why would you need that? Someone to do your taxes for you. There's an invoice on the parcel. I specifically asked 'no DHL' because they have a scheme where they automatically charge you taxes plus a nice bonus (€17.50) for themselves. They do their own value estimation which in my experience is a lot higher than the actual value, and if you want to complain then you have to pay €50 up front (which you lose also because they will never rule in your favour). 

So just order it and pay the mailman, the invoice in the mail or w/e. Or nothing. Most likely the latter. I'm sort of done with paying taxes 4x over (income tax, vat, inflation, inheritance tax etc). It's legalized highway robbery if you ask me. 

-----

The Ares has been playing for a few hours now and it sounds very much like my old R2R, only just a bit clearer still, tighter, and with more authority. It's an absolute cure for sibilant recordings and voices sound natural, clear, well defined without any sign of saturation or overmodulation. So loud voices stay under control. And so are the micro details. I did a quick listen to Norah Jones and she still sounded like she uses the mic i hate (SM57) but very real. And what i never heard before, a creek of her piano at the end. Very tiny detail. Not smeared under. (see, I'm trying very hard not to use the old cliché). 

And it works flawlessly with Android on USB! (fixed volume on my Tempotec V1 no MSEB but eq works, and normal on my Android 9 phone, which i cannot understand). There is a noticable switch though from DSD to PCM and vv. Not loud like other dac's.


----------



## ProLoL

Those who said they experience a sibilant sound, it's most likely duo to dirty power. Pangea ac14 mk2 killed all sibilance for me, day and night difference.


----------



## daytrader

Stock or upgraded power cords?  Save your cash.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

I'm kinda disappointed to hear the power supply can't deal with a noisy A/C line.


----------



## daytrader

gimmeheadroom said:


> I'm kinda disappointed to hear the power supply can't deal with a noisy A/C line.


It’s certainly going to be area specific.  A dedicated line if one can swing it in the home is the best thing one can do for their audio system.


----------



## Guidostrunk

Yep! Had noise issues before. Ran a separate outlet directly from the panel and no noise whatsoever now. 


daytrader said:


> It’s certainly going to be area specific.  A dedicated line if one can swing it in the home is the best thing one can do for their audio system.


----------



## gto88

Can a pure sine wave UPS help?


----------



## ]eep

for who has been waiting for the review on 6-Moons: the Ares II and Pontus preview is up.


----------



## Gabehcuod

gimmeheadroom said:


> I'm kinda disappointed to hear the power supply can't deal with a noisy A/C line.


DAC, Preamp and Phono all benefit immensely from power conditioning.
It's not until you start getting into high-end audio where electronics come with external power supplies and proper filters.


----------



## sajunky

]eep said:


> for who has been waiting for the review on 6-Moons: the Ares II and Pontus preview is up.


I see that Ares II has a new PCB version with Wima capacitors on a passive RC filter (first found on Pegasus).


----------



## ]eep

I didn't realise it had had an upgrade. I see the improved output now. I was more focused on the text than the images. It looks very much like the other brand (/ripoff) from the same factory (which makes the rave review on Darko and the denigrating remarks towards the Ares II all the more bewildering and unfair). I've said all i wanted to say about that in the dedicated thread and leave it at that. 

I think the output on the Ares is quite loud and the sound excellent. Only the sound is 'veiled' like there's a cap inbetween and that is exactly what i hear. Don't get me wrong; this is not a bad thing per sé, there needs to be one and it's influence is tiny compared to an opamp. It is more like a gut feeling when compared to my old r2r that didn't have a cap. And the Wima is good but upgradable for something even better.


----------



## gto88

> Ares is quite loud 
And I thought my system has issue when using Ares, it is so loud when output thgouh computer, I have to turn it down to 10%.


----------



## daytrader

gto88 said:


> > Ares is quite loud
> And I thought my system has issue when using Ares, it is so loud when output thgouh computer, I have to turn it down to 10%.


Are you using single ended outputs?


----------



## sennfan83261

gimmeheadroom said:


> I'm kinda disappointed to hear the power supply can't deal with a noisy A/C line.


Well, here's what one guy did:


----------



## gto88

daytrader said:


> Are you using single ended outputs?


No, I use XLR.


----------



## gto88

sennfan83261 said:


> Well, here's what one guy did:



His audio gear occupied most of the space in the house.  His fridge's door cannot fully opened.


----------



## daytrader (Aug 11, 2020)

gto88 said:


> No, I use XLR.


Balanced outputs double the output voltage compared to RCA outputs so use the single ended outputs.
On the Ares ll the RCA outputs at 2.2Vrms and 625 ohms vs the XLR at 4.4Vrms and 1250 ohms.  This should solve your volume problem.


----------



## dlyz (Aug 12, 2020)

armani006 said:


> it would be interesting to know you comparisons..  I have NFB28 but still burning Ares II 24/7 for 5 days and didn't listen to it.



Received the Ares II on the 29th last month and been listening to it daily and have about 126 hours running time. I even tried running is 48 hours one weekend to test if it sounded better if kept on 24/7. I'm using various flac and some dsd on foobar2000 with asio to Ares II (NOS mode) to AGD Master 10 to Dynaudio Contour S1.4LE + Rythmik Audio F12. I sit nearfield and use my system for music, movie, anime, drama, tv shows, youtube and gaming.

I am just comparing my AGD DAC19 10th Annv to Ares II. Both dacs are very good and personally i feel both have their strengths. They are both more of a side-grade to me than upgrade and i can easily live with both. I don't have the best hearing so this is just my 2 cents according to my tastes and ymmv.

Ares II has more detailed high, i prefer it for instruments. For vocals i actually prefer DAC19 more, it is more smooth. On mainstream singers, the "S" and "ST" sounds are more exaggerated on Ares II and i dislike it, on good recordings this is less of a problem. However, on some singers which benefit from more highs, i like the Ares II's vocal presentation more. For bass, the Ares II is faster than DAC19, but i feel perhaps too fast for me. I tend to focus on vocals and bass when i listen to music, DAC19 has more chest thump which i love but because Ares II is so fast, the thump is gone. The first day i listened to Ares II, the bass even made me feel slightly nausea because it seem to play a very low bass note that messed with my inner ear, but that was gone the 2nd day, perhaps it smoothed out after run in the day before or i just got used to the sound. For staging, i think the background is more forward and singer is more behind as compared to DAC19, i prefer DAC19 here as i like to focus on the vocal. Separation, i think Ares II is better.

I'm planning to swap back to DAC19 this weekend to see if the sudden change back let me discover something else. Would fall in love with my DAC19 again or would i start thinking about buying a Ares II for myself also. System matching is important and i still feel i am bias toward DAC19 for my particular speaker. If i was using my Dynaudio DM2/8 which has more rolled off highs, probably the Ares II will be better match. Any case, the Ares II will be with me till September unless i choose to send it earlier to its owner. I'll play with it more and will update if my feelings/thoughts change with time.

Edit: I have a buzzing sound with the Ares II sometimes and i googled and found some other people have the same problem. It goes away after you restart the song or video.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

gto88 said:


> His audio gear occupied most of the space in the house.  His fridge's door cannot fully opened.



which would be totally unacceptable here. I mean if you can't get to the beer what's the point of living


----------



## Cekootje

It’s recommended to leave the unit on 24/7. Does this mean I get crappy sound if I don’t? I always power off everything when I go to bed at night.


----------



## gto88

it is said it needs warmup, but 24/7? is it really necessary?


----------



## Guidostrunk (Aug 12, 2020)

Mine has been on 24/7 since day one. Has something to do with INL specs or something. Lol.
Mike Moffat(Schiit) explained the reason for leaving these particular dacs on all the time but it's way over my head.


----------



## daytrader

Yes, CRAPPY sound, leave it on 24/7, the power bill effect will be negligible and the heat barely noticeable.


----------



## Cekootje

daytrader said:


> Yes, CRAPPY sound, leave it on 24/7, the power bill effect will be negligible and the heat barely noticeable.


So is that sarcasm or not? This would really be a dealbreaker for me so please be serious.


----------



## Guidostrunk (Aug 12, 2020)

.


----------



## daytrader (Aug 12, 2020)

Cekootje said:


> So is that sarcasm or not? This would really be a dealbreaker for me so please be serious.


My apologies, didn’t noticed you are from the Netherlands when I used the word you chose, “crappy”.   So no sarcasm intended, just some ”lost in translation“ I guess.   So in all seriousness I would suggest an email to Alvin over at Vinshine Audio, the importer for the most informed answer.  My guess would be based on other DACs has been they sound best when on all the time.  Something to do with thermal stabilization,


----------



## dlyz

Cekootje said:


> It’s recommended to leave the unit on 24/7. Does this mean I get crappy sound if I don’t? I always power off everything when I go to bed at night.



I can answer you as i just tested it last week. You don't have to keep it on 24/7, it sounds good cold. But i did keep it on for 48 hours playing non stop. I felt everything was smoother when kept on but i only noticed cause i was looking for it. If not i probably would not have noticed. I turn off and unplug my gear from the wall every night religiously, cause i am too lazy to get out of bed in the middle of the night, go downstairs to unplug during lightning rain which is common at night here. My 20 year old Longan tree got struck 2 years back. As usual ymmv.


----------



## Cekootje

Great, thanks for your answer @dlyz ! I can imagine it should warm up a little bit just like a tube amp but leaving it on all the time just won’t do. Great to know it doesn’t really need to to sound good .


----------



## daytrader

Cekootje said:


> Great, thanks for your answer @dlyz ! I can imagine it should warm up a little bit just like a tube amp but leaving it on all the time just won’t do. Great to know it doesn’t really need to to sound good .


Tube gear is a completely different situation.  As to the Denafrips, don’t sweat it...just enjoy the music it makes for you regardless of circumstances.


----------



## ]eep

dlyz said:


> Received the Ares II on the 29th last month and been listening to it daily and have about 126 hours running time. I even tried running is 48 hours one weekend to test if it sounded better if kept on 24/7. I'm using various flac and some dsd on foobar2000 with asio to Ares II (NOS mode) to AGD Master 10 to Dynaudio Contour S1.4LE + Rythmik Audio F12. I sit nearfield and use my system for music, movie, anime, drama, tv shows, youtube and gaming.
> 
> I am just comparing my AGD DAC19 10th Annv to Ares II. Both dacs are very good and personally i feel both have their strengths. They are both more of a side-grade to me than upgrade and i can easily live with both. I don't have the best hearing so this is just my 2 cents according to my tastes and ymmv.
> 
> ...




From what you describe i suggest listening at lower levels. On a capable system the music sounds good at any level even at background level, a not so good system there is the urge to turn up the volume because there seems something missing (high power over-compensated amp/speaker). There is a physiological trick our ears play on us when the volume goes up past more than normal level (around 90-100dB). Then our ears react less on tonality and more on impulse attack. When you move closer from a distance to a live stage first you hear the melody and when you are right in front of it all you hear is the beat. 

Personally I learned this in school but only found it to be true in audio when I switched from a Mission Cyrus to a good tube amplifier less than half the power. (On a good system you don't need tone controls either, that only makes it worse.)

From what you describe the Ares is the more accurate, the dac19 more 'euphonic', it smears things like with a nice sauce on a less than great piece of steak. 

I shouldn't comment on the rest of the system because it is to far from my preference in system matching. Only that to me the Ares seems a better source to start with.


----------



## ]eep

Cekootje said:


> Great, thanks for your answer @dlyz ! I can imagine it should warm up a little bit just like a tube amp but leaving it on all the time just won’t do. Great to know it doesn’t really need to to sound good .



It doesn't make a world of difference but I leave it on. It uses just a few W, just like a standby mode (my tv and Tele2 tv box use a lot more!). If you use a master switch to turn everything on/off i wouldn't sweat it. If you are afraid of lightning strike i suggest a better solution. If you worry about power consumption, don't. That's ridiculous. 

For some gear regular on, off switching is not a good thing. Especially tube amplifiers, only those use a lot of power so that would be very wasteful to leave on, not to mention that high power tubes wear out rather quickly. Other amps often have a higher bias current (ruststroom), partly class A. That  wastes power. This dac is better left on. 

I have another little d/s dac that i also leave on, it hardly gets warm.


----------



## newtophones07

sajunky said:


> I see that Ares II has a new PCB version with Wima capacitors on a passive RC filter (first found on Pegasus).



So how in the world do you know if you are ordering one with the updated board?


----------



## sajunky

newtophones07 said:


> So how in the world do you know if you are ordering one with the updated board?


Good question.


----------



## Chodi

sajunky said:


> Good question.


I got my Ares II 4 weeks ago and have been really enjoying it. I recently noticed a few comments about a new pcb in the Ares II so I sent a text to the distributor and they answered that there is no such change. If there is an Ares II with a newer pcb can someone post a picture of the inside? I have not seen any posted photo of the change. Also if there is a change when did it happen? Interesting that the distributor doesn't know about it.


----------



## sajunky

@Chodi.

I picked up photos of a new PCB from a 6-Moons Ares and Pontus preview linked there:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/den...ladder-dac-close-up-view.833690/post-15792763


----------



## Chodi

sajunky said:


> @Chodi.
> 
> I picked up photos of a new PCB from a 6-Moons Ares and Pontus preview linked there:
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/den...ladder-dac-close-up-view.833690/post-15792763


You are referring to the 2 Wima caps next to the choke on the ac input? My unit has that and I really doubt that can be called an upgrade at least not in my book. Has nothing to do with the audio circuit that I can see. Might have some effect if your ac line is very dirty.


----------



## sajunky

Chodi said:


> You are referring to the 2 Wima caps next to the choke on the ac input?


These red caps:


----------



## Chodi

sajunky said:


> These red caps:


Ah yes I see. The distributor I bought from has not seen units with that change. I have no idea what difference that would make.


----------



## Baten

Maybe it's just a minor revision due to parts scarcity in covid times...


----------



## ]eep

Baten said:


> Maybe it's just a minor revision due to parts scarcity in covid times...


Not likely! If they are indeed the red Wima MKP10 from Germany (therefore very unlikely substitute in case of shortage due to corona) it is definitely an upgrade. These are very renowned for their sound quality, and since it's the last component in the signal path they are very defining for the sound. It is also in line with what we saw from almost the same (more expensive) dac that is made in the same facility under a different name. 

That said: this makes for a very easy upgrade. I'd rather solder on those than minute smd caps.


----------



## sajunky

]eep said:


> Not likely! If they are indeed the red Wima MKP10 from Germany (therefore very unlikely substitute in case of shortage due to corona) it is definitely an upgrade. These are very renowned for their sound quality, and since it's the last component in the signal path they are very defining for the sound. It is also in line with what we saw from almost the same (more expensive) dac that is made in the same facility under a different name.


These polypropylene caps work great in removing high frequency components from the signal, I wonder why they did so far depend 100% on electrolytes. A small upgrade, but important. There should be more such caps in the power section.


----------



## Pjotr27

Since three years my home is in Indonesia. In the Netherlands my system contains Metrum Hex and Pavane dac. But i couldn't take them to Indonesia. I brought a 47labs dac from the Netherlands and still enjoyed the sound from my cd-drive. But I want to setup a streaming system, so I need a new dac (USB). A friend who lives in China offered me a Musical Paradise M2-D2 dac with AKM4490 or AKM4497. On the other site there is a distributor in Indonesia who sells Denafrips Ares II. There is not much price difference if you take the budget version of the Musical Paradise. Pro for MP is you can change a lot to change some sound, tubes, caps and convertors. Con it has to come from China (customs) and it is huge. Pro for Denafrips I really like the design, R2R convertors and it is not so huge. Easy to put on my hifi-table. Con: you can only upgrade the power cord. But is is hard to make a decision. Who can advise? Or has listened to both dac's?


----------



## Baten

Pjotr27 said:


> Since three years my home is in Indonesia. In the Netherlands my system contains Metrum Hex and Pavane dac. But i couldn't take them to Indonesia. I brought a 47labs dac from the Netherlands and still enjoyed the sound from my cd-drive. But I want to setup a streaming system, so I need a new dac (USB). A friend who lives in China offered me a Musical Paradise M2-D2 dac with AKM4490 or AKM4497. On the other site there is a distributor in Indonesia who sells Denafrips Ares II. There is not much price difference if you take the budget version of the Musical Paradise. Pro for MP is you can change a lot to change some sound, tubes, caps and convertors. Con it has to come from China (customs) and it is huge. Pro for Denafrips I really like the design, R2R convertors and it is not so huge. Easy to put on my hifi-table. Con: you can only upgrade the power cord. But is is hard to make a decision. Who can advise? Or has listened to both dac's?


This is the ares thread, so.... Ares II all the way  reliable performance without tweaking


----------



## Pjotr27

Baten said:


> This is the ares thread, so.... Ares II all the way  reliable performance without tweaking



Yes and tweaking is expensive....


----------



## ]eep

Pjotr27 said:


> Yes and tweaking is expensive....


No, tweaking is not expensive. It is very cheap if you know what and why. But if you need to depend on other people's findings, and buy rare tubes, NOS (new old stock) caps and silver cables, yes. And; if it is so tweakable, my question is; why didn't they do it right from scratch? I mean, I've been there, still doing that. But you need to start with something good, something you can work with. And have a vision for the path you wish to follow. 

The 47-labs is a good example. It's a special little NOS (non os) R2R DAC with very few carefully selected parts. Very like my own R2R dacs. Very close to Denafrips. Only the Ares II is better. 

The Musical Paradise is a completely different beast. It promises the best of 'both' worlds, but actually does the inverse: delivers the worst of both worlds. Or delivers the bad of two and balances it with taking away good things of both. It sounds 'nice' but at a cost. Ok, this is very cryptic. Let me explain. 

The Musical Paradise is very complex and marries new and old, integrated circuits and tubes, digital format with an analog sound, a modern dish with a thick tasteful oldfashioned sauce. It gives you a nice start but you never see the end of it. I've been there too: AK4393 with tubes. You keep switching, modifying, changing powersupply, caps, tubes, resistors etc. and it never really satisfies. 

Might there be a technical reason for that? Yes, I think there is. Any delta sigma gives a sound with a lot of 'detail' (artificial detail) by using lots of oversampling (calculations), to be able to use a simple and cheap to manufacture chip and push all the noise into the supersonic where it's easy to filter. But there's actually a lot more noise than with R2R and of a more aggressive (non-harmonic) kind. While this works fine for the frequency and amplitude axis of a measurement, it does not for the temporal axis. That is: pre-ringing, faster transients than are actually recorded, a 'highlight' on high notes, a 'sheen' on cimbals that is actually not recorded. Pre-ringing is an echo reversed in time. Like a note announced before the chord is struck. 
Then that overly detailed sound is countered by the 'sweet' sound of tubes. Tubes sound good because they are so simple. They give a very short signal path. But there is nothing simple or short in the delta sigma way of processing, and the D/S needs amplification in the I/V stage. Tubes introduce distortion and noise, however minute or mellifluous, gone is the absolute silence in quiet passages, gone is the freedom of distortion and replaced by natural sounding (but introduced by the tubes) distortion. While the soundstage is wide and open, it is not as detailed and clear as with a good R2R that just reproduces the information in the recording. 

The D/S gives that digital sheen, the tubes mask it, the chip produces lots of HF noise, filtering is very nescessary, tubes introduce new noise at the end. It's like a roller-coaster ride, up and down. Very thrilling but not very relaxed. 
The Ares provides a close to perfect signal for the precision resistor array (more attention to detail that makes R2R more expensive than a mass produced chip) that puts out the analog signal ready for any amp, just needs a very simple passive output I/V stage that does very little to the purity of the sound. Very straightforward, very pure. 



PS: the Ares can be modified too, only it hasn't been done yet because there isn't that much to improve besides what Denafrips already does. I see something but I'll have to try that first.


----------



## Slade01

]eep said:


> The Ares provides a close to perfect signal for the precision resistor array (more attention to detail that makes R2R more expensive than a mass produced chip) that puts out the analog signal ready for any amp, just needs a very simple passive output I/V stage that does very little to the purity of the sound. Very straightforward, very pure.
> 
> PS: the Ares can be modified too, only it hasn't been done yet because there isn't that much to improve besides what Denafrips already does. I see something but I'll have to try that first.



@]eep Can i ask you then since you seem to know a bit more about the R2R designs.  Because I am trying to ascertain the differences between the Ares 2 and the AudioGD R-1, as there are really barely any direct comparisons between the two dacs.  The internals of the R-1 is strikingly different to how the Ares 2 is internally (where one is super cluttered (especially with , while the Ares 2 is sparse in comparison).  Is there something to all the added circuitry to the R-1 that somehow would edge a more simpler design?


----------



## ]eep (Aug 22, 2020)

Slade01 said:


> @]eep Can i ask you then since you seem to know a bit more about the R2R designs.  Because I am trying to ascertain the differences between the Ares 2 and the AudioGD R-1, as there are really barely any direct comparisons between the two dacs.  The internals of the R-1 is strikingly different to how the Ares 2 is internally (where one is super cluttered (especially with , while the Ares 2 is sparse in comparison).  Is there something to all the added circuitry to the R-1 that somehow would edge a more simpler design?



I have compared but i couldnt find much either. I did find out that the Ares has a passive I/V so that's what I bought. Now this is my personal opinion, FI Sajunky doesn't agree with me on this, but i prefer the simplicity of a passive I/V . I've modified a few dacs already and I find the sound closer to what I hear IRL. The thing that I noticed that on certain high modulated sounds, like a piano or soprano voice, the sound saturates. Like it hits a ceiling or you put your fingers in your ears. Once you heard it you don't forget. Every passive i/v i know gets it right every time, active i/v like opamps or tubes stumble to some degree.

Now you can say; is that all? But it's a symptom of a greater problem. It just points it out quickly. Maybe a passive i/v doesn't go as loud, or seems less dynamic. So what if it doesn't? Thats the task of the amplifier. You just need a proper signal to feed the amp, not pre-process the signal. Every component, every step has influence on the signal. A passive i/v is just a resistor that shorts the output for the right output impedance and a capacitor that removes the voltage offset (ie frequency highpass).

So you can make a lot of fuss about this stage to make it sound more 'powerfull' (remember the loudness war?) but does that improve the integrity of the signal? This is a battle between 1 single cap and a much more complex circuit (operational amplifier). I stick to the adagio that every component brings a tiny loss of information. So the less parts and the better quality, the less loss of information. So I bet on the single cap (or none if your amp can handle the offset). Let the DAC do the converting and let the amplifier handle the amplification.


----------



## Slade01

]eep said:


> I have compared but i couldnt find much either. I did find out that the Ares has a passive I/V so that's what I bought. Now this is my personal opinion, FI Sajunky doesn't agree with me on this, but i prefer the simplicity of a passive I/V . I've modified a few dacs already and I find the sound closer to what I hear IRL. The thing that I noticed that on certain high modulated sounds, like a piano or soprano voice, the sound saturates. Like it hits a ceiling or you put your fingers in your ears. Once you heard it you don't forget. Every passive i/v i know gets it right every time, active i/v like opamps or tubes stumble to some degree.
> 
> Now you can say; is that all? But it's a symptom of a greater problem. It just points it out quickly. Maybe a passive i/v doesn't go as loud, or seems less dynamic. So what if it doesn't? Thats the task of the amplifier. You just need a proper signal to feed the amp, not pre-process the signal. Every component, every step has influence on the signal. A passive i/v is just a resistor that shorts the output for the right output impedance and a capacitor that removes the voltage offset (ie frequency highpass).
> 
> So you can make a lot of fuss about this stage to make it sound more 'powerfull' (remember the loudness war?) but does that improve the integrity of the signal? This is a battle between 1 single cap and a much more complex circuit (operational amplifier). I stick to the adagio that every component brings a tiny loss of information. So the less parts and the better quality, the less loss of information. So I bet on the single cap (or none if your amp can handle the offset). Let the DAC do the converting and let the amplifier handle the amplification.



Thank you for that explanation and definitely appreciate it - makes sense. I understand where you're coming from with regards to passive i/v.


----------



## Pjotr27

]eep said:


> The 47-labs is a good example. It's a special little NOS (non os) R2R DAC with very few carefully selected parts. Very like my own R2R dacs. Very close to Denafrips. Only the Ares II is better.
> 
> The Musical Paradise is a completely different beast. It promises the best of 'both' worlds, but actually does the inverse: delivers the worst of both worlds. Or delivers the bad of two and balances it with taking away good things of both. It sounds 'nice' but at a cost. Ok, this is very cryptic. Let me explain.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the explanation...


----------



## gimmeheadroom

The thread is over 100 pages now...

Is there a consensus whether the Aeres or Musician version is better. Or any summary in the thread? Thank you.


----------



## sajunky (Aug 29, 2020)

Find it in a thread for musicians.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

sajunky said:


> There is another thread for musicians.



Aaaargh.....I didn't see that one yet.

What's your opinion between the two?


----------



## sajunky

Find it in a thread for musicians.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

Thanks for the help


----------



## ]eep

gimmeheadroom said:


> Aaaargh.....I didn't see that one yet.
> 
> What's your opinion between the two?


My explanation above has the 'Musician' model in mind without mentioning it (I think this might be obvious for anyone who cares to read), as I don't want to soil this thread. But now you ask; the mention in a certain (IMO obviously bought/biased) review about 'power' and 'dynamics' is what alarms me and makes me suspicious about the output stage. IF this turns out to be passive after all, it should be very similar (I would think Wima mkp10 caps on the output for both) and make the Musician model only cosmetically 'improved' while using the red pencil on the power supply caps and bragging about tighter spec resistors. I think the whole thing is just a bad example of marketing (-specs and cosmetics).


----------



## Pjotr27

I am also thinking, which of the two (Denafrips Aries II or Musical Paradise) sounds the best? It looks like my taste is more the Denafrips. For me more important is a relaxed sound. Not the most analytic sound.


----------



## ]eep

I wonder why no one shared this earlier: https://www.stereophile.com/content/gramophone-dreams-40-denafrips-terminator-ares-ii

I grew up with printed press in the days before 'influencers' appeared so I care about this kind of reviews (and know how to read them... ie what is said and what is not said).


----------



## Slade01

]eep said:


> I wonder why no one shared this earlier: https://www.stereophile.com/content/gramophone-dreams-40-denafrips-terminator-ares-ii
> 
> I grew up with printed press in the days before 'influencers' appeared so I care about this kind of reviews (and know how to read them... ie what is said and what is not said).



It is very recent, but alot better than the other reviews out there in my opinion.


----------



## Guidostrunk

I read through it. When people read my posts whether it's tubes or anything I change. One of the things I emphasize the most is reverb trails, nuances, and imaging. I believe they go hand in hand. 
I absolutely agree with the reviewer. It's so critical to the creation of realism. A life like presentation. What I always strive for in sound.


----------



## sajunky

Written well and focus on the most important features. Stereophile review is a good news for Denafrips.


----------



## daytrader (Sep 2, 2020)

Very Interesting read in Stereophile.   Alvin of Vinshine prefers NOS when I asked what he thought would be best for my Stax set up, which he owns a variant of as well. So I was a little surprised to read the NOS or OS section though I do understand why they thought so....The initial reaction to OS is usually wow, that’s so dynamic and clean, but for me R2R is not about being overly analytical & digital, it’s about getting as close as possible to analog you can get reproduced through a digital playback converter.   Maybe the Stereophile review was speaking more so in terms of a listening in an open room environment, which is much different from a headphone set up presentation.  Maybe OS being better suited for home system acoustics where the room has a lot of influence on the sound vs headphone systems that are not dealing with room reflections?  I have tried both NOS & OS exclusively with my Stax system and will say I hear a difference with both, but as to which is chosen is most definitely dictated by the music genre selected.  NOS, mostly.

One thing for sure is, I’ve seen, well actually now heard, the benefits of a good external dac.  I might have to climb the Denafrips ladder, no pun intended, to add a dac to my home system, maybe a Pontus if what I read is correct on the upgrade path?   Oh Alvin!


----------



## Focux

hello, any comparison for pontus and hugo 2?


----------



## daytrader

Anybody else play with the Phase button on the Ares 2?  I read somewhere on here it comes factory set at negative phase.  Sure enough checked the manual and it does come set that way.  A push of the phase button reverses it to positive, so it’s easily changed.  My question is has anyone played with the phase and do you hear a difference?  Thanks.


----------



## Gabehcuod

daytrader said:


> Anybody else play with the Phase button on the Ares 2?  I read somewhere on here it comes factory set at negative phase.  Sure enough checked the manual and it does come set that way.  A push of the phase button reverses it to positive, so it’s easily changed.  My question is has anyone played with the phase and do you hear a difference?  Thanks.


On speakers, I hear zero difference.


----------



## dakchi

3 months that I kept my Ares II and returned RME ADI-2. I have absolutely no regret. This DAC sounds amazing, warm and airy. You get every note in your face. The bass is incredible


----------



## gto88

dakchi said:


> 3 months that I kept my Ares II and returned RME ADI-2. I have absolutely no regret. This DAC sounds amazing, warm and airy. You get every note in your face. The bass is incredible


Totally agreed


----------



## Nickol

dakchi said:


> 3 months that I kept my Ares II and returned RME ADI-2. I have absolutely no regret. This DAC sounds amazing, warm and airy. You get every note in your face. The bass is incredible


@dakchi
Tell me, please, do you listen to in NOS mode or OS all this time ?


----------



## ProLoL

For me, OS slow was the best overall.


----------



## dakchi

Same for me, but the difference is subtle


----------



## Nickol

dakchi said:


> Same for me, but the difference is subtle


@dakchi
One more question, do you listened to it in your headphones ?


----------



## rajubhai55

Is Denafrips AresII better sounding with coaxial or USB?


----------



## ProLoL

rajubhai55 said:


> Is Denafrips AresII better sounding with coaxial or USB?



USB, don't try to add an external DDC via coax.


----------



## Gabehcuod

rajubhai55 said:


> Is Denafrips AresII better sounding with coaxial or USB?


I use USB but coax would objectively be better as long as a quality DDC is used.
I might pick up an m2tech eventually but the USB is pretty good and I've been spinning a lot of vinyl recently.


----------



## Guidostrunk

I have the Ares 1 and to me the coax input using an eitr is superior to the usb input. By a pretty big margin.


----------



## Slade01

Guidostrunk said:


> I have the Ares 1 and to me the coax input using an eitr is superior to the usb input. By a pretty big margin.



I'll echo this sentiment.  This goes for the Ares 2 as well.  I find running the EITR/Coax is way better and more substantial compared to the usb.


----------



## Gabehcuod

I might check it out then.


----------



## ProLoL (Sep 27, 2020)

I've used the U12 via coax and it's significantly worse than using the USB.
The USB is tuned to the device. Using U12 ruined the PRaT, smoothness and made it sound so basic.
The U12 is an incredible DDC by itself.

For me, the USB was very impressive. Better upgrade cables and clean power.


----------



## Guidostrunk

I've had the following DDC before.
Singxer X-1
Singxer F-1 
Singxer SU-1
Gustard U12 
Topping D10
Schiit Eitr

I can say without a doubt the Eitr smokes them all in SQ. It's not even close. When I got my first Eitr I was able do directly compare the SU-1 and Eitr. 2 days later the SU-1 was history. The SU-1 is far better than the other DDC remaining. A lot better. 
The Gustard U12 was marginally better than the D10 which is last on the list in SQ. 


All subjective though. We all hear things differently.


----------



## ProLoL

Guidostrunk said:


> I've had the following DDC before.
> Singxer X-1
> Singxer F-1
> Singxer SU-1
> ...



That's interesting, for me it's DI20 > U16 > U12 > SU2 > D10.
SU2 was good via headphones but a mess in my stereo system.


----------



## rajubhai55

So external USB to SPDIF is always better than onboard converter?


----------



## ProLoL (Sep 27, 2020)

rajubhai55 said:


> So external USB to SPDIF is always better than onboard converter?



Nope. In my experience, Audio GD's onboard amanero is superior to an external DDCs unless it's a very good DDC such as the DI20.
On the soekris dac1321 I couldn't bare the built in xmos but attaching a gustard U16 made the difference between keeping or selling the unit.
It really depends how good they made the internal converter.
I wouldn't be using the ares 2 with an external DDC as it's already a very good implementation and from my experience also ruins the fluidity using a synchronous coax input.

Synergy is the key.


----------



## Nickol

rajubhai55 said:


> Is Denafrips AresII better sounding with coaxial or USB?


with coaxial


----------



## ProLoL

The USB interface of the ares is it's best attribute IMHO. Soekris dacs are better but with a worse usb, just my 2 cents.


----------



## Dobrescu George

I made a video review about the Ares II just now! If you want a nice R2R design, here's my take on this one!


----------



## daytrader

Dobrescu George said:


> I made a video review about the Ares II just now! If you want a nice R2R design, here's my take on this one!



Too bad I don’t speak French!  🎧


----------



## Gabehcuod

Dobrescu George said:


> I made a video review about the Ares II just now! If you want a nice R2R design, here's my take on this one!



My favourite reviewer made a video on ares II


----------



## Dobrescu George

daytrader said:


> Too bad I don’t speak French!  🎧



The review's in Eng my friend!  



Gabehcuod said:


> My favourite reviewer made a video on ares II



Really happy to help and deliver!


----------



## daytrader

Dobrescu George said:


> The review's in Eng my friend!
> 
> 
> 
> Really happy to help and deliver!


😉😉😉👍


----------



## Nickol

Dobrescu George said:


> The review's in Eng my friend!


@Dobrescu George
I do not understand English well, and in the review in the video there is not even the inclusion of translation subtitles into my language .... ... very sad bad ...
What do you say in the review, is Ares a success? Do you praise or abuse?


----------



## Gabehcuod

Nickol said:


> @Dobrescu George
> I do not understand English well, and in the review in the video there is not even the inclusion of translation subtitles into my language .... ... very sad bad ...
> What do you say in the review, is Ares a success? Do you praise or abuse?


Maybe consider watching/reading reviews in your native language then.
George is well-spoken and I don't have to think twice about his words.
Funny how the guy who can't speak English properly is mocking someone's accent.


----------



## daytrader (Oct 8, 2020)

He was just fine.


----------



## Dobrescu George

Nickol said:


> @Dobrescu George
> I do not understand English well, and in the review in the video there is not even the inclusion of translation subtitles into my language .... ... very sad bad ...
> What do you say in the review, is Ares a success? Do you praise or abuse?



Hi there, 

Sorry about it, I may talk a bit fast and I actually can't make subs yet, but I actually liked the Ares II, it is a pretty good overall DAC, has little competition at the price point 

I will be making full written articles too, I try my best to expand on my thouhgts in writing when I can, but it takes me longer to post a full written review, which is why they almost always come after the video review was posted


----------



## Dobrescu George

Gabehcuod said:


> Maybe consider watching/reading reviews in your native language then.
> George is well-spoken and I don't have to think twice about his words.
> Funny how the guy who can't speak English properly is mocking someone's accent.



Thank you, and I'm happy that you like my work!  

I'm not sure if it was mocking the accent, or if I talk too quick / unclear at times. I try my best to keep the accent under control, it is more of a panic reaction, if I have to talk a lot and quickly, and if I'm trying to expand my thoughts directly without a script, I end up having a strong accent. 

I hope I will keep providing high quality content!  



daytrader said:


> He was just fine.



Thank you!


----------



## Nickol

Gabehcuod said:


> Funny how the guy who can't speak English properly is mocking someone's accent.


@Gabehcuod
Have you seen or read any ridicule somewhere in my words? You are wrong and make the wrong hasty conclusions.
I recommend that you refrain from further such categorical statements. In addition, my post and question was NOT for you.


----------



## Nikinoz

Nickol said:


> @Gabehcuod
> Have you seen or read any ridicule somewhere in my words? You are wrong and make the wrong hasty conclusions.
> I recommend that you refrain from further such categorical statements. In addition, my post and question was NOT for you.



Well, the tone of your post wasn't exactly postive. You did criticise him for not having a subtitle translation in your language which you said was "sad, bad".

Seemingly your English grammar is better when the shoe is on the other foot 🙂


----------



## ]eep

can we please skip the language issues? Fortunately we weren't all born in America or we would all be speaking perfect English (for those of you who didn't notice; I'm being cynical). 
Nickol was just complaining about youtube's lack of AI translation service the way I read it. Don't always make it so personal and detract from the topic. Can we please get on? (and along)


----------



## Halam (Oct 10, 2020)

Hi everybody, I have upgraded my Mimby 2 with Ares II and would like to say it was substantial step up. I like so much Ares holographic 3D airy soundstage, immersive, rich and full sound. And most of all I like non offensive, non fatigue nature of Ares, which is capable to keep clarity and resolution at the same time. I can just listen to music for hours without analyzing or thinking that something can be inconsistent in my chain.

  But I feed my Ares from USB of my gaming MSI laptop and happy with this. I don't feel any noise or other problems of Windows and USB source, although many on this forum claim this is not the best way.

  So what is the conclusion? Is there a sense to add some good DDC to the chain, like U16, DI20 or less known Denafrips Iris? Will be external DDC significant improvement over Ares USB? I know it was discussed before but any advice would be highly appreciated.


----------



## gto88

it  is said that Ares has very good USB input already.
i wonder if adding one more gear in the signal chain can improve it or introduce 
another point of noise.


----------



## CaptainFantastic

Would it make any sense to pair the Ares II with an OTL tube amp? It sounds like the Ares II provides a warm, organic sound, but that's what I get from my tube amp. Would the two together result in too much of a good thing?


----------



## Halam

I pair Ares II with Felix Audio Echo OTL tube headphone amp and ZMF Atticus and sound is fantastic, full and engaging, but this is what I want from my system, just enjoy music and forget about audiphilia


----------



## Halam

gto88 said:


> it  is said that Ares has very good USB input already.
> i wonder if adding one more gear in the signal chain can improve it or introduce
> another point of noise.


I agree that another one box in your chain can be redundant, I just wonder if improvement would be big enough to spend 500$ on DDC or I can just keep my laptop as a source and enjoy my music. Majority of head-fiers are confident that PC is not an optimal source. This upgrade itching


----------



## Guidostrunk

For me adding a Schiit Eitr was a big improvement over the USB input. Others have found no difference.


----------



## CaptainFantastic (Oct 11, 2020)

Thanks @Halam for the answer. Exactly the setup I was wondering about. I have a WA3 and the 600/Aeolus as my primary headphones. I think you're saying you care less about strict high fidelity, but since you are enjoying the music you are the definition of an audiophile.

One more question. I use optical for my current setup even though the RME is purported to have excellent USB implementation. I never heard one hint of RFI with USB, but then as soon as I added the tube amp I did. I went optical and it went dead silent, never looked back. Is the only reason people are avoiding optical on the Ares Ii because it can't handle those highest of resolution tracks or are there other reasons?


----------



## Halam

CaptainFantastic said:


> Thanks @Halam for the answer. Exactly the setup I was wondering about. I have a WA3 and the 600/Aeolus as my primary headphones. I think you're saying you care less about strict high fidelity, but since you are enjoying the music you are the definition of an audiophile.
> 
> One more question. I use optical for my current setup even though the RME is purported to have excellent USB implementation. I never heard one hintnof RFI with USB, but as soon as I added the tube amp I did. I went optical and it went dead silent, never looked back. Is the only reason people are avoiding optical on the Ares Ii because it can't handle those highest of resolution tracks or are there other reasons?


Never tried optical myself, it seems to be not very popular, but may be you will find some info in this thread
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/wha...igital-audio-from-your-pc-to-your-dac.932199/


----------



## sajunky (Oct 11, 2020)

CaptainFantastic said:


> Is the only reason people are avoiding optical on the Ares Ii because it can't handle those highest of resolution tracks or are there other reasons?


Not the only reason. The other one is a different clock synchronisation mechanism. Optical connection has an inherent jitter that needs to be dealt with by deploying in Ares FIFO and/or PLL. In high-end equipment it is dealt with by using master clock. A good things is, there is no ground loops that was giving a hum in your setup.

USB connection gives perfect clock synchronisation, it doesn't need FIFO, PLL or the external master clock, but  is sensitive to the ground loops. The biggest source of ground loops is PC/Laptop or poorly designed devices like Topping A90. When there is no presence of ground loops, USB potentially gives the lowest possible jitter. Ares has good USB implementation, it could be better by having an option disabling internal PLL, but it is not a big issue. Bottom of line is, you must always check what works the best in your system.


----------



## Halam

sajunky said:


> USB connection gives perfect clock synchronisation, it doesn't need FIFO, PLL or the external master clock, but is sensitive to the ground loops. The biggest source of ground loops is PC/Laptop or poorly designed devices like Topping A90


Sorry for ignorance, what could be the sign of ground loops and how to avoid this problem? Signal from my laptop seems to be clean and silent, but maybe it can be improved further?


----------



## ]eep

I can't offer you a definitive answer, just some advice from experience and common sense since I have no experience with DDC's. First because I never felt the need, second because they are very expensive and that money is much better spent elsewhere with much more effectiveness. The art of building a good stereo system is very often financial and finding the weakest link. The Ares will hardly ever be the wrakest link. Most likely the strongest link. 

I have used my pc for years as source, so much that i never even touched a music cd anymore (and i have hundreds). Not just for convenience but for sheer sound quality. You are not confined to the dac in the cd player and the dac is not confined to the often mediocre performance of the laser transport. And then came the jump to high-res. Only a short while ago i bought an old Philips cd player with a cdm-19 transport but it doesn't perform well on s/p-dif out. This would probably benefit from a ddc (i suspect the output doesn't come from the transport directly, thats why the TDA1543's don't sound at all like my 4xTDA1543 filterless NOS DAC). 

Now here's why I tell you all this: I bought a Tempotec V1, a little simple portable media server that can output 1:1 native DSD or PCM high res material (even sacd iso). It has 2 slots for SD cards and is battery operated and I can operate it remotely from my phone with Hiby-link and the output is via usb-c. No pc rf interference or any noise at all. And i take it to my workshop every day. It cost me €65 plus the sd cards. You can use and old phone with Hiby app (or Usb player pro or  Neutron music player) or even any streaming app if you choose. 

I think it is smarter to feed it high res material than reclock old standard 16/44 stuff, even if the Ares (or any r2r) can make the most of it. 

Now here some prices to wrap your head around (my system is very evenly balanced). Server €70, monitor speakers €75 (2ndH prototype with €600 worth units alone, modified), DS dac €140, amp €300, Ares R2R dac €700, 300B tubeamp €2100 (not in use atm), vinyl rig €7000, main speakers (Genesis used as subs only) €30000 (30k). Yes, this is totally topsy turvy but it works better than any system I've ever heard at any price (100k+) save 2 or 3 (with huge planar speakers). The only one who still inspires me is my old dealer/adviser who recently retired and closed his business. With vinyl everything still flows from the source but in digital I tend to advise to focus on transducers first. Maybe thats why I'm busy building speakers and a turntable now.


----------



## sajunky (Oct 11, 2020)

]eep said:


> Now here's why I tell you all this: I bought a Tempotec V1, a little simple portable media server that can output 1:1 native DSD or PCM high res material (even sacd iso). It has 2 slots for SD cards and is battery operated and I can operate it remotely from my phone with Hiby-link and the output is via usb-c. No pc rf interference or any noise at all. And i take it to my workshop every day. It cost me €65 plus the sd cards. You can use and old phone with Hiby app (or Usb player pro or  Neutron music player) or even any streaming app if you choose.
> 
> I think it is smarter to feed it high res material than reclock old standard 16/44 stuff, even if the Ares (or any r2r) can make the most of it.


I don't think I understand what you said in a second paragraph. I would rather feed Ares with a native format than upsampling, unless software upsampling gives better quality than in Ares. In OS mode Ares is always resampling. Thankfully we have NOS mode in Ares II, forcing device to accept what we want.

As for Tempotec, it is a nice finding, many thanks, I must perhaps follow. Portable design help avoiding ground loops, it will be good in my system, I am sure.


----------



## CaptainFantastic

sajunky said:


> Not the only reason. The other one is a different clock synchronisation mechanism. Optical connection has an inherent jitter that needs to be dealt with by deploying in Ares FIFO and/or PLL. In high-end equipment it is dealt with by using master clock. A good things is, there is no ground loops that was giving a hum in your setup.
> 
> USB connection gives perfect clock synchronisation, it doesn't need FIFO, PLL or the external master clock, but  is sensitive to the ground loops. The biggest source of ground loops is PC/Laptop or poorly designed devices like Topping A90. When there is no presence of ground loops, USB potentially gives the lowest possible jitter. Ares has good USB implementation, it could be better by having an option disabling internal PLL, but it is not a big issue. Bottom of line is, you must always check what works the best in your system.



Thanks. What does the jitter translate to? An audible noise when the music is stopped? Or some noise when there is music playing? 

What I am getting at is, if I am connected via optical and I have a pitch black background (when the music is stopped or playing and I have tracks that allow me to hear the silence), does that mean optical is working for me without issues?


----------



## sajunky

CaptainFantastic said:


> Thanks. What does the jitter translate to? An audible noise when the music is stopped? Or some noise when there is music playing?
> 
> What I am getting at is, if I am connected via optical and I have a pitch black background (when the music is stopped or playing and I have tracks that allow me to hear the silence), does that mean optical is working for me without issues?


It is not noise in an analog sense. Analog noise is random and additive. This one is correlated with sound, it itermodulate sound creating row number of of spurious frequencies. So there is no noise when music stops. You perceive it as a harshness, lack of clarity, cause fatigue. You can find jittered samples on the internet to give an idea.


----------



## CaptainFantastic

sajunky said:


> It is not noise in an analog sense. Analog noise is random and additive. This one is correlated with sound, it itermodulate sound creating row number of of spurious frequencies. So there is no noise when music stops. You perceive it as a harshness, lack of clarity, cause fatigue. You can find jittered samples on the internet to give an idea.



Thanks Sajunky. Very helpful. I see that the RME ADI-2 DAC FS takes care of jitter with its internal "SteadyClock FS" (post #1 here - www.head-fi.org/threads/rme-adi-2-dac-thread.868015/). 

So my question is, why would the Ares II even have an optical input if it's not protected from this jitter via FIFO/PLL? Is the idea that it should be paired with some other device upstream?


----------



## sajunky

CaptainFantastic said:


> So my question is, why would the Ares II even have an optical input if it's not protected from this jitter via FIFO/PLL? Is the idea that it should be paired with some other device upstream?


AFAIK, Ares has both jitter reduction methods FIFO and PLL.


----------



## CaptainFantastic

sajunky said:


> AFAIK, Ares has both jitter reduction methods FIFO and PLL.



Aha, I read your initial response more carefully. So the Ares II does have FIFO and PLL to resolve optical input jitter. 

So then, back to my initial question, why not use optical instead of USB? Aside from it's inability to play above 24/192 (personally I have zero files that go above that), doesn't an optical that is protected from jitter offer the best solution without the purchase of additional devices which may or may not do the job?


----------



## Nikinoz (Oct 11, 2020)

Ifi have a device called a ground hog to eliminate ground loops.

USB audio has come along way from its first iteration and now sounds very good. However, If you want to improve things further options include the Sbooster Vbus isolator that removes the 5 volt power supply from the USB signal. You can then use other Sbooster, Uptone or Intona devices to regenerate the USB signal. These work very well in my systems.
Another noticeable improvement in sound comes form using a linear power supply for Source, DAC and amp.


----------



## CaptainFantastic

Nikinoz said:


> Ifi have a device called a ground hog to eliminate ground loops.
> 
> USB audio has come along way from its first iteration and now sounds very good. However, If you want to improve things further options include the Sbooster Vbus isolator that removes the 5 volt power supply from the USB signal. You can then use other Sbooster, Uptone or Intona devices to regenerate the USB signal. These work very well in my systems.
> Another noticeable improvement in sound comes form using a linear power supply for Source, DAC and amp.



Gotcha. But why bother with all of this if optical has no jitter on the Ares and I don't want to play files above 24/192?


----------



## Nikinoz

Sorry, I was just speaking generally about USB, How it sounds to you is really all that matters, enjoy 🙂.


----------



## sajunky

CaptainFantastic said:


> Gotcha. But why bother with all of this if optical has no jitter on the Ares and I don't want to play files above 24/192?


Optical has a lot of jitter and reduction methods do not eliminate it entirely. But optical gives galvanic isolation that USB is missing. USB can deliver completely jitter free data stream under ideal condition without help of FIFO/PLL, but ground loops can destroy this advantage. When you try to isolate USB connection you will introduce jitter. Remember this. There are many reports where USB isolators do not help or make it worse. In other words it vary, depends on your setup, the only way is to try.


----------



## Nikinoz

Yeah, it is system dependent, and how high it is up the fiscal food chain


----------



## Lolito

Denafrips should definitely produce a cheaper Ares, this one as amazing as it is, still expensive compared to delta sigma stuff, but if this company could be like a cheap Chord, they should make a cheap Ares to compete with Qutest/Mojo kinda thing; So get the Ares II dac, remove the toroidal internal PSU, make it external wall block, upgradeable to linear, remove all the XLR outputs and circuitry... remove coaxial, or remove one coaxial+optical, leave just one... Make half the price and almost as good sounding, say 300$-349$, with an optional external linear PSU for 100-160$.


----------



## Pharmaboy

CaptainFantastic said:


> Would it make any sense to pair the Ares II with an OTL tube amp? It sounds like the Ares II provides a warm, organic sound, but that's what I get from my tube amp. Would the two together result in too much of a good thing?



I often pair my NOS DAC (MHDT Labs Orchid) with the modest but good-sounding OTL, Woo WA3. It's a wonderful match...the WA3 doesn't have super-warm, billowy tube sound to begin with--it's more of a precision, impedance controlled sound w/any high impedance HPs I try. A great DAC/amp combination.


----------



## Pharmaboy

Halam said:


> Never tried optical myself, it seems to be not very popular, but may be you will find some info in this thread
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/wha...igital-audio-from-your-pc-to-your-dac.932199/



I haven't heard the Ares, but I have pretty extensively compared optical vs coax inputs on 3-4 different DACs (using SPDIF converters, usually the Musical Fidelity V192/24). When I was using an inexpensive Billy Jeans coax cable, the differences between that and a good glass toslink were minor, but in favor of coax. When I upgraded to the very fine Oyaide DR-510 silver coax cable, those differences got bigger and even more in favor of coax.

It's coax all the way for me...


----------



## dakchi

Hello,
Anyone is playing music from a Synology NAS through Ares II via USB? does it work without driver? I have a Bluesound streamer but was wondering if it would be better to directly connecte the NAS to Ares II
Thanks


----------



## sajunky

Lolito said:


> Denafrips should definitely produce a cheaper Ares, this one as amazing as it is, still expensive compared to delta sigma stuff, but if this company could be like a cheap Chord, they should make a cheap Ares to compete with Qutest/Mojo kinda thing; So get the Ares II dac, remove the toroidal internal PSU, make it external wall block, upgradeable to linear, remove all the XLR outputs and circuitry... remove coaxial, or remove one coaxial+optical, leave just one... Make half the price and almost as good sounding, say 300$-349$, with an optional external linear PSU for 100-160$.


Yes, but I want coaxial. 

You are asking for a single ended R2R DAC, I have one, I am happy. It also has a quality linear PSU (no need for the external PSU) and headphone amp as a bonus for $350. It is called Audio GD R2R-11.


----------



## Lolito

sajunky said:


> Yes, but I want coaxial.
> 
> You are asking for a single ended R2R DAC, I have one, I am happy. It also has a quality linear PSU (no need for the external PSU) and headphone amp as a bonus for $350. It is called Audio GD R2R-11.



that one is a mimby competitor, but not as good or close to an Ares.


----------



## Gabehcuod

Lolito said:


> Denafrips should definitely produce a cheaper Ares, this one as amazing as it is, still expensive compared to delta sigma stuff, but if this company could be like a cheap Chord, they should make a cheap Ares to compete with Qutest/Mojo kinda thing; So get the Ares II dac, remove the toroidal internal PSU, make it external wall block, upgradeable to linear, remove all the XLR outputs and circuitry... remove coaxial, or remove one coaxial+optical, leave just one... Make half the price and almost as good sounding, say 300$-349$, with an optional external linear PSU for 100-160$.


I strongly disagree. Why make an already good product into trash for the sole purpose of nickel and diming. Ares 2 is an insanely cheap R-2R DAC.
Comparing it to a D/S DAC is almost akin to comparing a class A/AB amp with class D. Obviously the china class D will be cheaper, but it also won't be listenable.
I'm still amazed at how they manage to even make a meaningful profit on the ares ii.


----------



## Gabehcuod

Halam said:


> Never tried optical myself, it seems to be not very popular, but may be you will find some info in this thread
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/wha...igital-audio-from-your-pc-to-your-dac.932199/


Didn't realise goldie's post was this popular.


----------



## nichino

Dobrescu George said:


> I made a video review about the Ares II just now! If you want a nice R2R design, here's my take on this one!




Thank you for this awesome review, George! English is my first language and I understand you perfectly well - don't let the haters get you down 

Cheers!


----------



## ]eep (Oct 12, 2020)

sajunky said:


> I don't think I understand what you said in a second paragraph. I would rather feed Ares with a native format than upsampling, unless software upsampling gives better quality than in Ares. In OS mode Ares is always resampling. Thankfully we have NOS mode in Ares II, forcing device to accept what we want.
> 
> As for Tempotec, it is a nice finding, many thanks, I must perhaps follow. Portable design help avoiding ground loops, it will be good in my system, I am sure.


Probably because I don't understand it myself. I was talking about the coax digital out of an oldschool Philips CD player. (Also, I never could put my finger on the jitter problem because I never was a big fan of digital but tried to get the best player i could afford ie. near high-end). I was just guessing/trying to remember what's inside of the old Philips, I know there's usually an upsampling chip before the TDA154x. And, as a transport it doesn't bring me joy as is. I will have to dive in to it first but I am more interested in building speakers and turntables atm.




Gabehcuod said:


> I strongly disagree. Why make an already good product into trash for the sole purpose of nickel and diming. Ares 2 is an insanely cheap R-2R DAC.
> Comparing it to a D/S DAC is almost akin to comparing a class A/AB amp with class D. Obviously the china class D will be cheaper, but it also won't be listenable.
> I'm still amazed at how they manage to even make a meaningful profit on the ares ii.



II suspect you are projecting your own situation and financial headroom on the matter. I don't see how halving the price of $750 can be called nickel and diming. If you put 375 worth of nickels and dimes you will need a very unpractical hefty and strong bag! €750 is more than a years wage for like half the worlds population. For me personally it was an investment I had to seriously consider, by no means spur of the moment.

According to the 80-20 rule (bell-curve) €350 would be much closer to the sweet spot for a mostly unknown component. So turnover would increase considerably. But I think that is not the goal or ambition of Denafrips (this was IMHO  the downfall of forementioned Philips electronics division, our national pride). However, a simpler model without balanced outputs and just 1 of each input and huge weight saving with smaller PS transformer would help bring down the price (and P&P) for a wider audience.

What I would welcome is a proper cd-player matching the Ares at a sensible, similar price. As the Denafrips cd-transport is built like a tank and way out of my comfort zone pricewise. 

When I tell any of my friends I bought a new DAC for over €700 they look at me with glazed eyes: 'what is a dac?' or 'thats a lot of money' or 'didn't you already have a NOS dac?' or just simple with derision 'are you insane?'. And I live in one of the richest countries.

Also, i think youre stuck in the past with class AB amplification. I have several class D (T) amps that outperform almost all transistor amps as long as your speakers have a decent sensitivity. For €40. That is insanely cheap. What that little T-amp does compared to a class AB amp is what The Ares does to a 30 year old cd-player, ^3. No contest. I'm so done with massively overpriced high-end prices and snobism. (Goldmund 10k cd player that's just a Pioneer dvd, Red Rose audio (mr M. Levinson) rebadging Aurum Cantus and Korsun chinese products at 10 times plus retail prices just to name a few).

To close on a positive note: Denafrips is a fresh new breeze.


----------



## iFi audio

Nikinoz said:


> Ifi have a device called a ground hog to eliminate ground loops.



That's true. Also, if a ground loop is in the USB pipeline, our iDefender+ was designed to break these and optionally provide clean external 5V.


----------



## Dobrescu George

nichino said:


> Thank you for this awesome review, George! English is my first language and I understand you perfectly well - don't let the haters get you down
> 
> Cheers!


Thanks a lot my friend, and always happy to help!


----------



## Halam

Alvin explained this before, but just to be shure. If I am going to keep 2 (two) amplifiers connected to Ares RCA and XLR at the same time (but turn on and use only one amp of two at the moment), will this degrade the sound?  Thanks for advice, and sorry if this was discussed before


----------



## sajunky

Halam said:


> Alvin explained this before, but just to be shure. If I am going to keep 2 (two) amplifiers connected to Ares RCA and XLR at the same time (but turn on and use only one amp of two at the moment), will this degrade the sound?  Thanks for advice, and sorry if this was discussed before


It will be completely wrong, sorry.


----------



## Halam

sajunky said:


> It will be completely wrong, sorry.


I see. Can you guys advice some device or splitter to share Ares RCA output between two amps? Thanks.


----------



## daytrader (Oct 17, 2020)

Halam said:


> I see. Can you guys advice some device or splitter to share Ares RCA output between two amps? Thanks.












*2 Way Stereo Audio RCA Switch Box*
$19.95
Part #: VUPN10317



Phone: 1-4256417275


----------



## ]eep

people have the strangest wishes... but often they just think out loud and say what they think they need instead of be open about it and share what it is they intend to achieve. Why would you want 2 amplifiers? I can only imagine you have 1 main amplifier for the speakers and a seperate one for headphones or subs. But wouldn't it be a lot simpler to use an amp with a tape loop or pre-out? Or a pre-amp with options. Or make an extra out by putting a couple of resistors in the split off signal. 

Putting a (junk quality) €20 split box after a €700 dac makes me uneasy (contact corrosion over time or worse). It sort of spits in the eye of audiophiles who buy good quality after market cables for hundreds of dollars. If you really want a switchbox, use a decent one with relais. But that would be a passive pre-amp. €45 from AE. That wont hurt the quality of the DAC.


----------



## daytrader (Oct 20, 2020)

]eep said:


> people have the strangest wishes... but often they just think out loud and say what they think they need instead of be open about it and share what it is they intend to achieve. Why would you want 2 amplifiers? I can only imagine you have 1 main amplifier for the speakers and a seperate one for headphones or subs. But wouldn't it be a lot simpler to use an amp with a tape loop or pre-out? Or a pre-amp with options. Or make an extra out by putting a couple of resistors in the split off signal.
> 
> Putting a (junk quality) €20 split box after a €700 dac makes me uneasy (contact corrosion over time or worse). It sort of spits in the eye of audiophiles who buy good quality after market cables for hundreds of dollars. If you really want a switchbox, use a decent one with relais. But that would be a passive pre-amp. €45 from AE. That wont hurt the quality of the DAC.


If he keeps it out of the pool he’ll be fine.  The Ares ll is nice but not ultra Hi-Fi by any means, the $20 switch box will work just fine unless his ego gets in the way.


----------



## Gabehcuod

daytrader said:


> the $20 switch box will work just fine


This hobby isn't about working "just fine".
If it was we'd all be using bluetooth headsets and soundbars, which also work "just fine".

The Ares II is entry level but it also isn't chump change and there's no reason to run it through a crappy switcher when better solutions exist.


----------



## daytrader

Gabehcuod said:


> This hobby isn't about working "just fine".
> If it was we'd all be using bluetooth headsets and soundbars, which also work "just fine".
> 
> The Ares II is entry level but it also isn't chump change and there's no reason to run it through a crappy switcher when better solutions exist.


Why do you seem to think a box as simple as this is will be crappy?  It’s not doing anything complicated.  If you want to spend more, it’s your dime, you are free to do so. Just because something is inexpensive don’t just assume it’s not effective.


----------



## Halam

]eep said:


> people have the strangest wishes... but often they just think out loud and say what they think they need instead of be open about it and share what it is they intend to achieve. Why would you want 2 amplifiers?


It is very simple. I have 1 DAC, that is Ares II, and I have 2 headphone amps and 2 headphones . Given that I can not use Ares RCA and XLR outputs simultaneously, I was asking about any device, splitter and the like to share 1 Ares output between 2 amps. I don't want to use another DAC, because I like Ares so much. Of course this box does not have to be too cheap or too expensive, just to have acceptable quality. Sorry if my question was not clear. There are a lot of newbies here on this forum as well as others audiophile forum, who looking for answers of more experienced members and:


]eep said:


> Putting a (junk quality) €20 split box after a €700 dac makes me uneasy (contact corrosion over time or worse). It sort of spits in the eye of audiophiles who buy good quality after market cables for hundreds of dollars


audiophile snobbery just make me chuckle sometimes


----------



## alvin1118

If the headphone amps are *not *true balanced, there is a work around.
The balanced XLR outputs of the Ares II DAC are true balanced. Pin2 against Pin1 is the positive signal; Pin3 against Pin1 is the negative signal.

You may custom made a pair of XLR cable to split the signals to four(4) RCA plugs. Schematic:





Cool?


----------



## daytrader

All that for nothing Alvin?  Thanks!  😂


----------



## szore

I'm on the verge of dipping my toe into the pool of external DACS, and all this conversation is over my head....


----------



## armani006

szore said:


> I'm on the verge of dipping my toe into the pool of external DACS, and all this conversation is over my head....


I am about 1 year after sell all of my portable players, no regret...


----------



## szore

armani006 said:


> I am about 1 year after sell all of my portable players, no regret...


My 1000M, Leonidas II and MEST sound awesome...will never let those babies go!


----------



## ]eep (Oct 20, 2020)

daytrader said:


> If he keeps it out of the pool he’ll be fine.  The Areas ll is nice but not ultra Hi-Fi by any means, the $20 switch box will work just fine unless his ego gets in the way.


Well, I can't tell if I can't have a look inside. These cheap parts can fit the bill perfectly and then you're lucky but most often there are no finances spent on decent parts, design and QC. Then it will ruin the sound, irritate you and end up in a drawer. If there's a simple switch inside it's just ok, if theres a chip inside youre definitely not. And spending twice the budget will get you a super quality passive pre-amp with relais and then your only 'limitation' is the cables and plugs you use.

As to that remark about the 'Areas'... I'm assuming you simply don't know better.


----------



## szore

Halam said:


> It is very simple. I have 1 DAC, that is Ares II, and I have 2 headphone amps and 2 headphones . Given that I can not use Ares RCA and XLR outputs simultaneously, I was asking about any device, splitter and the like to share 1 Ares output between 2 amps. I don't want to use another DAC, because I like Ares so much. Of course this box does not have to be too cheap or too expensive, just to have acceptable quality. Sorry if my question was not clear. There are a lot of newbies here on this forum as well as others audiophile forum, who looking for answers of more experienced members and:
> 
> audiophile snobbery just make me chuckle sometimes


That's so proletariat....


----------



## ]eep (Oct 20, 2020)

Halam said:


> It is very simple. I have 1 DAC, that is Ares II, and I have 2 headphone amps and 2 headphones . Given that I can not use Ares RCA and XLR outputs simultaneously, I was asking about any device, splitter and the like to share 1 Ares output between 2 amps. I don't want to use another DAC, because I like Ares so much. Of course this box does not have to be too cheap or too expensive, just to have acceptable quality. Sorry if my question was not clear. There are a lot of newbies here on this forum as well as others audiophile forum, who looking for answers of more experienced members and:
> 
> audiophile snobbery just make me chuckle sometimes


That makes sense   
Snobbery is for people who want to look smart by shelling out dough. But it doesn't make them smarter or more loved. I rather help people save money and get a lot more quality at the same time. But I remember the time before internet when better usually meant more expensive.

But if you can solder, you can save lots of money and do it better. Like Alvins drawing. 

Now I have a similar question about another auxiliary part that can range too from €20-€2000 or more... a cd transport. I haven't played cd's in years. I have 3 cd-players/transports, none of which please me. My MHZS sony transport skips badly, the Cambridge skips on CD-r's and so does the old Philips. My BD-player works fine but takes a coffee-break between songs... None of them can produce a proper s/p-dif signal. Since I also volunteer in a 2nd-hand store I can get CD-'s cheap. The cd-players were brought in that I tested there are almost without exception junk or defective. And they don't look good with the Ares half width form-factor. I just like cd's to sound not significantly worse than regular 16/44 lossless files. 

So far I found:
Cayin (a bit dodgy and only silver) 
RFTLYS CD1 bit better transport(?) and parts, but rather high. 
Shanling Tempo EC1b, looks good but cheapish Sanyo transport 
Shanling EC2C, Sony transport but more expensive 
Denon D50 that I don't care for (just for listing) 
Really not that many choices that look like a decent match. Fyi, i looked in the thread 'small transports' but I thought I'd bring it up here.


----------



## daytrader (Oct 20, 2020)

]eep said:


> Well, I can't tell if I can't have a look inside. These cheap parts can fit the bill perfectly and then you're lucky but most often there are no finances spent on decent parts, design and QC. Then it will ruin the sound, irritate you and end up in a drawer. If there's a simple switch inside it's just ok, if theres a chip inside youre definitely not. And spending twice the budget will get you a super quality passive pre-amp with relais and then your only 'limitation' is the cables and plugs you use.
> 
> As to that remark about the 'Areas'... I'm assuming you simply don't know better.


Well maybe not?  But I do have one, Ares II.  Used with my STAX SR-L700 and my STAX  SRM-007tll system.  So, please do explain?

The box(junk quality?)BTW carries the CE code, with hard wired RCA cables, audio grade switch button with a pronounced click, housed in a black aluminum case, $20.  Don’t ask how I know, unless you don’t know better. 😁


----------



## Halam (Oct 21, 2020)

szore said:


> That's so proletariat...


I just want to leave it here
Translation from Russian:
*"Remember worker, eat Hercules, and listen to superDAC Ares"*
*Hercules - oatmeal


----------



## szore

Halam said:


> I just want to leave it here
> Translation from Russian:
> *"Remember worker, eat Hercules, and listen to superDAC Ares"*
> *Hercules - oatmeal


I needed a good laugh, thanks!


----------



## CaptainFantastic (Oct 22, 2020)

Removed. I answered my own Windows 10 sampling rate question.


----------



## sajunky

@CaptainFantastic. In Advanced (for your Asus device) check an option "Allow Application to take exclusive control" and a second one for priority. And from now you don't need to worry about what else is set in Windows sound panel.

Under condition: Use correct output device in Foobar: Prefereces -> Playback -> Output -> Device
It must be WASAPI event or push. For the output format select 24-bit, 16-bit sources will play as well.

SQ will improve immediately.  For more look there: https://diyaudioheaven.wordpress.com/digital/pc-software/foobar-2000-for-dummies/


----------



## Slade01

Halam said:


> But I feed my Ares from USB of my gaming MSI laptop and happy with this. I don't feel any noise or other problems of Windows and USB source, although many on this forum claim this is not the best way.



I was catching up with this thread, and saw this -- @Halam we have a similar setup that my source comes from an MSI laptop, and the USB implementation on these laptops are really good, coupled with the USB setup on the ARES 2, there is no noise, so really the USB on its own is definitely good enough.  Use of a DDC at this point is optional, and YMMV on whether or not the DDC makes your chain better or worse.   In my case, I use an EITR and to me, enhances it further via the coax.  Maybe overkill, but I had it already prior to getting the Ares 2, so why not use it...but not necessary, the USB is great on its own merits in this case.



Halam said:


> Alvin explained this before, but just to be shure. If I am going to keep 2 (two) amplifiers connected to Ares RCA and XLR at the same time (but turn on and use only one amp of two at the moment), will this degrade the sound? Thanks for advice, and sorry if this was discussed before



I think like Daytrader had suggested - I myself use a simple RCA A/B (sescom switch).  One of my amps is fully balanced, and is connected directly to the Ares 2 via XLR cables.  The other is a single ended (SE) amp, and this is connected as:  (Ares 2 RCA Out > Sescom Switch > SE Amp RCA IN).  I do this with the RCA, single ended amp to have the ability to fully terminate the connection to that amp when using my balanced amp, by switching to the non connected side of the switch box.  If I understood alvin correctly, one of the issues for degradation is the noise/feedback coming from gear connected to the DAC.  The other concern obviously is the potential power draw from more than one connected device at a time, which would probably weaken the sound/cause degradation.  I'm not an electrical expert, but this is how I understood it -- I could be wrong.  However, this seems to work for me, and the music sounds good - I don't have any issues with they way I have this setup.


----------



## Halam

Slade01 said:


> I was catching up with this thread, and saw this -- @Halam we have a similar setup that my source comes from an MSI laptop, and the USB implementation on these laptops are really good, coupled with the USB setup on the ARES 2, there is no noise, so really the USB on its own is definitely good enough.


Thank you @Slade01 and all head-fiers for recommendations. DDC gained some popularity recently and Denafrips produced their own DDC Iris, but I see that Ares USB implementation is good enough to concentrate on something else, although DDC can improve sound. There are many options to remove PC from chain like portable player (or even Android phone with quite good results), NUC, streamers, RaspberryPi, but PC + DDC would be pretty convenient although DDC not necessary when USB has good implementation. Thanks again.


----------



## armani006

My variant of source selector...


----------



## Lolito

I apologise in advance, but I insist and I hope the company reads this, although they seem to want to produce more expensive than the Ares, rather than cheaper. Same kind of DAC, without balance output, only rca, and external PSU, and make it under 400€, or 499.95€ with VAT included. Would sell a lot of them, and compete with other price ranges... Current one is too much hifi devide still, very big, etc... heavy... should be a Chord quetest competitor but much cheaper.


----------



## Nickol

Lolito said:


> I apologise in advance, but I insist and I hope the company reads this, although they seem to want to produce more expensive than the Ares, rather than cheaper. Same kind of DAC, without balance output, only rca, and external PSU, and make it under 400€, or 499.95€ with VAT included. Would sell a lot of them, and compete with other price ranges... Current one is too much hifi devide still, very big, etc... heavy... should be a Chord quetest competitor but much cheaper.


I do not support your initiative, I am against what you write


----------



## Gabehcuod

Lolito said:


> I apologise in advance, but I insist and I hope the company reads this, although they seem to want to produce more expensive than the Ares, rather than cheaper. Same kind of DAC, without balance output, only rca, and external PSU, and make it under 400€, or 499.95€ with VAT included. Would sell a lot of them, and compete with other price ranges... Current one is too much hifi devide still, very big, etc... heavy... should be a Chord quetest competitor but much cheaper.


I think a company's goal should be to create a quality product, first and foremost.
I don't believe in nickle and diming a good product just to release a cheaper mediocre one.
There's plenty of chip dacs out there that cost pennies for you to choose from.


----------



## sajunky (Nov 12, 2020)

I think it is a good idea. Audio GD has such offer (R2R11 for $350) that include quality power supply and headphone amp. I own one and it makes me very hungry, so my music library has increased over last few months dramatically. It fits nicely on my desk (Denafrips wouldn't). Soekris is releasing new DAC model 2541 with ladder self-calibration, a feature that Audio GD had for years. It decrease costs, as allows to use resistors of a lower tolerance with the same sound quality. In result of this technology improvement there will be also a new, budget model with external power supply. Price is not revealed yet, this picture had been posted recently here: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/soekris-audiophile-line-dacs-1541-1421-1321-1101.854918/





Interesting, while a DAC has only single ended outputs, a ladder is balanced, like in the more expensive model. There is also FPGA chip.


----------



## Baten

sajunky said:


> I think it is a good idea. Audio GD has such offer (R2R11 for $350) that include quality power supply and headphone amp. I own one and it makes me very hungry, so my music library has increased over last few months dramatically. It fits nicely on my desk (Denafrips wouldn't). Soekris is releasing new DAC model 2541 with ladder self-calibration, a feature that Audio GD had for years. It decrease costs, as allows to use resistors of a lower tolerance with the same sound quality. In result of this technology improvement there will be also a new, budget model with external power supply. Price is not revealed yet, this picture had been posted recently here: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/soekris-audiophile-line-dacs-1541-1421-1321-1101.854918/
> 
> 
> Interesting, while a DAC has only single ended outputs, a ladder is balanced, like in the more expensive model.


I wonder what voltage it'll require !


----------



## ]eep

Lolito said:


> I apologise in advance, but I insist and I hope the company reads this, although they seem to want to produce more expensive than the Ares, rather than cheaper. Same kind of DAC, without balance output, only rca, and external PSU, and make it under 400€, or 499.95€ with VAT included. Would sell a lot of them, and compete with other price ranges... Current one is too much hifi devide still, very big, etc... heavy... should be a Chord quetest competitor but much cheaper.


As I already stated before, I think its a very good idea. While I am very happy and fortunate to own the Ares II, I definitely do not consider it an entry level product. For me it was a lot of money and it has features I don't use. In the normal world nobody uses balanced inputs or 2 of both type sp/dif inputs. Or even know what balanced inputs are (or a DAC for a matter of fact). I know i could live very well with a less hefty PS, just RCA outputs, and 1 of each input and 99% of the sound quality. 

When I started with my first R2R DAC (4x1543), I experimented with quite lot of things and came to a final result that was frankly quite close to what I'm hearing now. The upgrade to a Teradak (8x1543) that i modified the same way i did not benefit that much from the much better power supply. Yet it cost 5x as much. The Ares needs no mods from me (or not started yet, not much to improve) and is again 3x that. Pennies saved in manufacturing are pounds off the end consumer price. And that reduction leads to a much larger consumer base. And that leads to much larger sales numbers making a lot of people happy and making them hungry for more. 

I think a good comparison is turntables. Cheap Chinese crap like Crossley is offputting for a lot of new vinyl entry customers but if a new entry level TT would be 700 I really doubt vinyl would have revived like it did. With all due respect, with manufacturers like Linn, Clearaudio, VPI etc vinyl would have remained a very, very small nice market without hardly any new blood (as in: would have withered and died). It is really thanks to Pro-ject (Music Hall) and Rega with an entry level at around 400 that no frills but proper quality players were within reach of new young enthousiasts. This is what gave vinyl a chance to come back with a vengeance. However much I always maintained that vinyl is better than cd I don't think the vinyl revival/resurrection has to do with sound quality. It has to do with availability.


----------



## daytrader

]eep said:


> As I already stated before, I think its a very good idea. While I am very happy and fortunate to own the Ares II, I definitely do not consider it an entry level product. For me it was a lot of money and it has features I don't use. In the normal world nobody uses balanced inputs or 2 of both type sp/dif inputs. Or even know what balanced inputs are (or a DAC for a matter of fact). I know i could live very well with a less hefty PS, just RCA outputs, and 1 of each input and 99% of the sound quality.
> 
> When I started with my first R2R DAC (4x1543), I experimented with quite lot of things and came to a final result that was frankly quite close to what I'm hearing now. The upgrade to a Teradak (8x1543) that i modified the same way i did not benefit that much from the much better power supply. Yet it cost 5x as much. The Ares needs no mods from me (or not started yet, not much to improve) and is again 3x that. Pennies saved in manufacturing are pounds off the end consumer price. And that reduction leads to a much larger consumer base. And that leads to much larger sales numbers making a lot of people happy and making them hungry for more.
> 
> I think a good comparison is turntables. Cheap Chinese crap like Crossley is offputting for a lot of new vinyl entry customers but if a new entry level TT would be 700 I really doubt vinyl would have revived like it did. With all due respect, with manufacturers like Linn, Clearaudio, VPI etc vinyl would have remained a very, very small nice market without hardly any new blood (as in: would have withered and died). It is really thanks to Pro-ject (Music Hall) and Rega with an entry level at around 400 that no frills but proper quality players were within reach of new young enthousiasts. This is what gave vinyl a chance to come back with a vengeance. However much I always maintained that vinyl is better than cd I don't think the vinyl revival/resurrection has to do with sound quality. It has to do with availability.


Actually Micheal Fremer is considered by many to be the biggest reason vinyl never went away, btw. Look it up if you are not familiar!


----------



## Gabehcuod

daytrader said:


> Actually Micheal Fremer is considered by many to be the biggest reason vinyl never went away, btw. Look it up if you are not familiar!


Fremer brought alot of younger guys into the hobby, including myself. My friends think i'm nuts.



]eep said:


> 99% of the sound quality


The balanced topology in itself is one of the key reasons why the ares has the sound that is does.\
Can't judge how much worse it would be, but likely it'll turn from a being a cheaper Holo R-2R to a mediocre SMSP Soekris.


]eep said:


> In the normal world nobody uses balanced inputs


The ares doesn't offer balanced inputs unfortunately. For how cheap it is, it makes sense. AES is only offered on pontus and up.


----------



## daytrader (Nov 12, 2020)

Gabehcuod said:


> Fremer brought alot of younger guys into the hobby, including myself. My friends think i'm nuts.


I don’t even dare telling my friends what my cartridge costs, let alone the entire TT system.


----------



## Lolito

sajunky said:


> I think it is a good idea. Audio GD has such offer (R2R11 for $350) that include quality power supply and headphone amp. I own one and it makes me very hungry, so my music library has increased over last few months dramatically. It fits nicely on my desk (Denafrips wouldn't). Soekris is releasing new DAC model 2541 with ladder self-calibration, a feature that Audio GD had for years. It decrease costs, as allows to use resistors of a lower tolerance with the same sound quality. In result of this technology improvement there will be also a new, budget model with external power supply. Price is not revealed yet, this picture had been posted recently here: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/soekris-audiophile-line-dacs-1541-1421-1321-1101.854918/
> 
> 
> Interesting, while a DAC has only single ended outputs, a ladder is balanced, like in the more expensive model. There is also FPGA chip.



Thanks for the information, maybe in the end that GD thing for 350$ is the "cheap man" ares alternative. Also schiit multibit options. Then again, ares 2 is the flavour of the month, that is for sure ;-D

Maybe a cheap delta sigma dac with a tube amp gives a similar result?


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## sajunky (Nov 13, 2020)

Lolito said:


> Thanks for the information, maybe in the end that GD thing for 350$ is the "cheap man" ares alternative. Also schiit multibit options. Then again, ares 2 is the flavour of the month, that is for sure ;-D
> 
> Maybe a cheap delta sigma dac with a tube amp gives a similar result?


R2R11 is not a cheap Ares alternative. It has a different sound, you can love it or hate. 

It is a cheap R28 alternative (or R1 if HPA is not needed). Ares may sound more sterile to the A-GD DACs, as sound is still pre-processed, even in NOS mode (it cannot be switched off). In R1/R28 there are options for DSP filtering, it can be turned off. Then it sounds more like R2R11, always better.

However you can make R2R11 sound more similar to Ares, by pre-processing on the PC, by example in Foobar with DSP add-on and/or SoX for upsampling.

DS DAC and tube? Mixed results.
Ladder DAC and tube? Always!


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## Nikinoz

Entry Level, cheap parts and high volume sales is not the brand marketing strategy or market segment Denafrips is aiming for. What they do do is make a cheaper DAC with trickle down technology from their high end DACs; DACs which compete with the big names costing 4-5 times the price.


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## ]eep (Nov 14, 2020)

daytrader said:


> Actually Micheal Fremer is considered by many to be the biggest reason vinyl never went away, btw. Look it up if you are not familiar!


-if- you are not familiar?  

I so appreciate Mike. Even his padawan Malachi. But he is just a man. One very decent man with a fine sense of homour. But without support from the industry and people who put their money where their mouth is (as in; money for their livelyhood) like Lichtenegger, and firm believers like the people from AT, Rega, Orthophon et all, not forgetting the hardcore Japanese audiophiles, he wouldn't have been called that. And what made it very simple for him: he was right! He was simply pointing out the truth because he is used and fortunate enough to be able to listen to high end equipment.

But thats all very much beside the point. Michael Fremer also listens to entry level turntables, but thats for reviews. For fun he listens to a turntable that costs close to 100k. Not €400. Everybody has to start somewhere and 100k is not a starting point unless you are talking about buying your first house (or mortgage  ).  But like I said before: MF's point was always: sound quality. My point is; 'availability of quality made the revival possible'. The lower your entry point the broader the market base.

PS2: I have to insert this here bc it again proves my point: look at MF last 2 entries about turntables on Analog Planet. First the $400 Pro-ject (born out of frustration with cheap chinese junk) and the $14000 (14k!) Thorens TD124DD that offends me on so many levels (cashing in on nostalgia, overpriced, bought brand, not an idler which it is famous for but direct drive). See, there is that price again. And who in his right mind is going to buy that fake Thorens to enjoy playing vinyl? (operative wordt being right mind and enjoy vs bragging and showing off). 

Another example: cars. Ferdinand Porsche designed the 80 ton king Tiger tank, racing cars but also the Volkswagen (meaning 'car for the masses') a decent, sturdy, well made car at the lowest possible entry point. This was the 'kubelwagen', the german jeep so to speak, and the Beatle (Käfer). The Beatle has been in production from before the war until well in the 80-ies in South-America (iirc) and is (was) the biggest selling car ever. It brought freedom and manouvrability to 10's of millions of people. So what brought more people joy do you think? The Volkswagen or the Porsche?

Denafrips' aim is as they say: high end quality for an affordable price. 'Music for the masses' (no I do not mean Depeche Mode but the Porsche analogy). I know my 'volkwagen' cost €175 and sounds very, very close. So, do I compare Denafrips to Porsche or Volkswagen? So far it is more like Ferrari. Not that I'm complaining 

PS, I better not say how much all my cartridges cost... 5 digits...


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## daytrader (Nov 15, 2020)

Not sure I agree he’s as good of a guy as you think but he sure knew his way around a turntable and proper set up.

On the other hand...I miss Art a lot, the man was much loved and indispensable!


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## Gabehcuod

daytrader said:


> I miss Art a lot


The loss of Art still saddens me. Such a kind hearted person who really loved music and the industry,


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## Nickol (Nov 17, 2020)

sajunky said:


> I think it is a good idea


And I dont think thats a good idea...
"Everything new is well forgotten old" - there is a proverb.
In such devices inexpensive resistors of a lower tolerance - parameters float over time from temperature fluctuations, and there is also no auto-tuning (calibration) of the matrix. The service life of such devices with their originally conceived sound is short-lived.
All these newfangled and too budget devices (for about $ 350) are not too serious. I don't consider them as a long-playing and high-quality device. Deceiving yourself.
.. even the same Luxury & Precision P6 - inexpensive resistors were crammed into it, yes, compact, yes, it sounds (so far new) - but then what ..? Anyone who wants high-quality sound for a long time - do not deceive the laws of physics and yourself)


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## ]eep

Nickol said:


> And I dont think thats a good idea...
> "Everything new is well forgotten old" - there is a proverb.
> In such devices inexpensive resistors of a lower tolerance - parameters float over time from temperature fluctuations, and there is also no auto-tuning (calibration) of the matrix. The service life of such devices with their originally conceived sound is short-lived.
> All these newfangled and too budget devices (for about $ 350) are not too serious. I don't consider them as a long-playing and high-quality device. Deceiving yourself.
> .. even the same Luxury & Precision P6 - inexpensive resistors were crammed into it, yes, compact, yes, it sounds (so far new) - but then what ..? Anyone who wants high-quality sound for a long time - do not deceive the laws of physics and yourself)


erm.. quite easy to disprove. In one word: classic. A Guarnieri violin was one new. The pyramids were once new. So you're not quoting a preverb, your just being cynical. Anything new starts with a good idea. Paired with enterprise and craftsmanship there's the possibility for something classic. 

The whole notion that we are discussing an R2R DAC which was thought of as obsolete proves the contrary (not even mentioning vinyl). 

I'm not in the deceiving business. I hate deceiving anyone, others and least of all myself. I believe in the human deciding capabilities to create and build new things. When you mastered something you start getting better, be able do do it faster, get rid of unnecessary processes or parts... meaning you get better for less. Old cd-players with R2R chips can be modified with good results just by removing what we now now is extra weight. My old dac is an R2R with vintage chips from late '80's or' 90-ies and sounds very close to the Ares. And costs much less than 350 (half in fact). So all your intellectual 'facts' about resistors might be true. But in reality 'short-lived' is a very wide and loose description. If its just as 'short-lived' as my father's new Telefunken tube radio from 1948 im not worried at all.


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## Slade01

sajunky said:


> R2R11 is not a cheap Ares alternative. It has a different sound, you can love it or hate.



@Lolito What i was thinking about in this case is that stripping some of those features you mentioned to make it cheaper...the closest to that is probably the Airist R2R and also at the 300-350 price point.  I actually upgraded from this Dac because I sought the very features present in the Ares 2 that was not in Airist R2R (balanced connections, better architecture,  etc. ) The presentation of the Airist was very nice, not far from the Ares 2.  But in all sense it was a very stripped down R2R Dac.  I think in spirit this is the closest I can think of to a lite version of Ares.  AUDIO GD R2R11 and Schiit Multibit have their distinct house sounds , different, but also good in their own way.  It really becomes subjective, and your chain can most definitely affect the sound like a good warm tube amp or clarity of a solid state. 

I dont think Denafrips wants to compete in the 300 dollar market.  By contract, the features the Ares 2 provides...at a a basic level of having a true balanced R2R/ladder Dac...The Ares 2 was the cheapest price point for the features it does offer.  The next price points after the Ares 2 jumps to 900-1100 level.  So they smartly are filling a niche in my opinion.


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## Baten

Soekris 2451 is released. I wonder how it compares to something like Denafrips DACs


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## sajunky (Nov 19, 2020)

Baten said:


> Soekris 2451 is released. I wonder how it compares to something like Denafrips DACs


No real advantages over Ares II or Audio GD R1, except of having galvanic isolation on all inputs. Everything else is very clever engineering, but opportunistic type of design that make it cheaper. Summary in my post: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/soe...dacs-1541-1421-1321-1101.854918/post-15960049

It should be much cheaper, even considering that Soekris is unable source components so cheap as Chineese brands. Soekris have also mentioned a killer for Airist, it will be interesting to see whether he can match $350 price mark. I grabbed a photo and reposted here: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/den...ladder-dac-close-up-view.833690/post-15971380


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## Slade01 (Nov 19, 2020)

sajunky said:


> No real advantages over Ares II or Audio GD R1, except of having galvanic isolation on all inputs. Everything else is very clever engineering, but opportunistic type of design that make it cheaper. Summary in my post: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/soe...dacs-1541-1421-1321-1101.854918/post-15960049
> 
> It should be much cheaper, even considering that Soekris is unable source components so cheap as Chineese brands. Soekris have also mentioned a killer for Airist, it will be interesting to see whether he can match $350 price mark. I grabbed a photo and reposted here: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/den...ladder-dac-close-up-view.833690/post-15971380



On pricing, the 2541 seems to be just an updated version of the 1541 (as sajunky as stated - no significant advantages (e.g. increased tech components and capabilities, etc) as price seems to have remained the same between the two products.  Alot of consensus for the 1541 for those who weren't completely sold, or of the opinion that it was a solid DAC that was just missing that "something" that would make it great or put it over the top (engaging/sweet/incisive/sound) - the 2541 allegedly fixes that.  If that's the case, then all the better for that line.   I have doubts that the 2541 which is twice as much in cost  as an ares 2 would be in a tier or so better just based on the law of diminishing returns alone, I suspect they are alot closer in sound, though it would be cool if a direct comparison/shootout could be made between the two to really find out.


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## Baten

2541 has an ultra-modern ultra-linear output stage which is what I'm most excited about. Just gotta wait for the first reviews of it and than I've gotta try one  headphone out is probably meh but DAC out, very promising.


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## Slade01

Baten said:


> 2541 has an ultra-modern ultra-linear output stage which is what I'm most excited about. Just gotta wait for the first reviews of it and than I've gotta try one  headphone out is probably meh but DAC out, very promising.



If this is what fixed the 1541 sound and takes it to that next level then that would be exciting.  This basically would narrow the gap for the smooth/sweet - crisp/clear bounds.  The art of producing pleasant harmonic distortion without distortion.   

If you can get you get your hands on one - yeah, we would love to know/hear the comparisons.


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## sajunky

2541 has more DSP power, in future it will be firmware release with more taps. It will appeal to those who want brick wall filtering for a smooth sound (not neccessary in preserving natural presentation) and those who are not pissed away because using opamps in the signal path. It can catch many users who didn't see anything outside DS technology or had only exposure to the poor implementations or R2R. However in the later case I think it is a better marketplace for the forthcoming "Airist killer" DAC1221.

In other words DAC2541 is not a real competitor for the Ares II nor Audio GD R1/R28. Those two use different approach, but both are designed for the  best SQ, without compromises.


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## Lolito

Slade01 said:


> @Lolito What i was thinking about in this case is that stripping some of those features you mentioned to make it cheaper...the closest to that is probably the Airist R2R and also at the 300-350 price point.  I actually upgraded from this Dac because I sought the very features present in the Ares 2 that was not in Airist R2R (balanced connections, better architecture,  etc. ) The presentation of the Airist was very nice, not far from the Ares 2.  But in all sense it was a very stripped down R2R Dac.  I think in spirit this is the closest I can think of to a lite version of Ares.  AUDIO GD R2R11 and Schiit Multibit have their distinct house sounds , different, but also good in their own way.  It really becomes subjective, and your chain can most definitely affect the sound like a good warm tube amp or clarity of a solid state.
> 
> I dont think Denafrips wants to compete in the 300 dollar market.  By contract, the features the Ares 2 provides...at a a basic level of having a true balanced R2R/ladder Dac...The Ares 2 was the cheapest price point for the features it does offer.  The next price points after the Ares 2 jumps to 900-1100 level.  So they smartly are filling a niche in my opinion.



You describe it really well, and probably Ares2 is what I should buy at once and be done, and avoid any future upgrade. But the problem with this is that I can not go to any place or even order all this items from one place, test them, keep one and return the rest... if i could test all these in an audio show room, maybe I would buy me this Ares 2 thing and also and LCD 2C, if I test them both and crap on my pants, I would definitely say shut up and take my money, but that not being the case, it's a bit of a gamble, but hey, I should just take a walk on the wild side, right? dubi dub...


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## pofofo

Im looking for a new, better DAC to replace my Grace SDAC (Drop). As for the sound of the SDAC I actually liked my ODAC better, but thats gone. Im now using the SDAC for my speaker setup: Bottlehead S.E.X. with a pair of Fostex FE208 in Dallas 2 (back loaded horn) and a NAD C740/Marantz 1040M with a pair of Yamaha NS-1000M. Im also using it for my headphone setup: Atrox V2 headphone amp/Bottlehead S.E.X., Audeze LCD-2.2, LCD-2CB and Senns HD6XX. Im looking for a meatier sound with more natural timbre and with adequate details but not fatiguing. Is this the right DAC for me? Will it be very different from the SDAC?


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## Baten

pofofo said:


> Im looking for a new, better DAC to replace my Grace SDAC (Drop). As for the sound of the SDAC I actually liked my ODAC better, but thats gone.


If you liked ODAC, the direct upgrade to it would be a great Sabre DAC like the Matrix X-Sabre. Or maybe something like an SMSL SU-9, on the cheap.


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## pofofo

Baten said:


> If you liked ODAC, the direct upgrade to it would be a great Sabre DAC like the Matrix X-Sabre. Or maybe something like an SMSL SU-9, on the cheap.


Well, I liked it better than the SDAC, and those are the only DACs Ive tried. Ive allways been curious about R2Rs and think the SDAC is a bit to sharp and lightwight sounding.


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## Baten

pofofo said:


> Well, I liked it better than the SDAC, and those are the only DACs Ive tried. Ive allways been curious about R2Rs and think the SDAC is a bit to sharp and lightwight sounding.


The SDAC is a pretty cheap akm-based DAC though. But if you want to try R2R, sure, Ares 2 is one seriously good one to consider.


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## Lolito

Slade01 said:


> @Lolito What i was thinking about in this case is that stripping some of those features you mentioned to make it cheaper...the closest to that is probably the Airist R2R and also at the 300-350 price point.  I actually upgraded from this Dac because I sought the very features present in the Ares 2 that was not in Airist R2R (balanced connections, better architecture,  etc. ) The presentation of the Airist was very nice, not far from the Ares 2.  But in all sense it was a very stripped down R2R Dac.  I think in spirit this is the closest I can think of to a lite version of Ares.  AUDIO GD R2R11 and Schiit Multibit have their distinct house sounds , different, but also good in their own way.  It really becomes subjective, and your chain can most definitely affect the sound like a good warm tube amp or clarity of a solid state.
> 
> I dont think Denafrips wants to compete in the 300 dollar market.  By contract, the features the Ares 2 provides...at a a basic level of having a true balanced R2R/ladder Dac...The Ares 2 was the cheapest price point for the features it does offer.  The next price points after the Ares 2 jumps to 900-1100 level.  So they smartly are filling a niche in my opinion.



AUDIO GD R2R11 and Schiit Multibit, those are very low quality stuff in my opinion, both of them. Very low quality stuff actually, rather buy me a khadas tone board for 99$ than anything audio gd or schiit multibit. I would get me a 100$ delta sigma dac before any low quality, embarrasingly bad switched and sounds and user experience like audio gd dac of 350$, or schitt multibit "wannabe ladder" dac for 300$. No thanks, not stupid enough here unfortunately.

Airist was sold out for ever, as far as I know.


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## Slade01

Lolito said:


> AUDIO GD R2R11 and Schiit Multibit, those are very low quality stuff in my opinion, both of them. Very low quality stuff actually, rather buy me a khadas tone board for 99$ than anything audio gd or schiit multibit. I would get me a 100$ delta sigma dac before any low quality, embarrasingly bad switched and sounds and user experience like audio gd dac of 350$, or schitt multibit "wannabe ladder" dac for 300$. No thanks, not stupid enough here unfortunately.
> 
> Airist was sold out for ever, as far as I know.



Well, it is subjective for many people.  I've heard it from both ends, on the other side too, for people who wouldn't pay a dime more for more expensive DACs and are perfectly content with the R2R11 and Mimbys and equally feel that to spends hundreds beyond these prices are equally a waste for diminishing returns.  As I did not know what your prior experience (or opinions of) is with lower cost - discrete ladder or R2R, i merely suggested those -- they are often in the conversation of course in that price range.  

If you're determined to stick in that price range though, I would, as @sajunky had mentioned, tune in to when Soekris updates their line with that DAC 1221, which might fit the bill.  

Otherwise as far as the Ares 2 goes - most owners are pretty happy with it and is a pretty solid R2R DAC.


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## Baten

Ares II is a very good DAC. Soekris DACs are great too, especially his upcoming 2- upgraded series.

I have to agree audio-gd is lackluster though. They used to make nice R2R DACs with vintage chips, but their current/modern stuff is grossly overpriced for their sound. Literally mostly anything you find here recommended on head-fi is likely to be a better choice ....


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## sajunky (Nov 23, 2020)

Lolito said:


> AUDIO GD R2R11 and Schiit Multibit, those are very low quality stuff in my opinion, both of them. Very low quality stuff actually, rather buy me a khadas tone board for 99$ than anything audio gd or schiit multibit. I would get me a 100$ delta sigma dac before any low quality, embarrasingly bad switched and sounds and user experience like audio gd dac of 350$, or schitt multibit "wannabe ladder" dac for 300$. No thanks, not stupid enough here unfortunately.
> 
> Airist was sold out for ever, as far as I know.


This comment sounds like you had experience with all, but we know you were asking for help, so for clarity it is not your first hand opinion, just overheard. For the Audio GD such opinion is generally unfair due to a popular website dominated by one individual who only had experience with the first R2R implementation (before DA7/DA8 came out), but is raising opinion on the later products too. Anyone who has a different opinion receives a relevant admin sticker on his/her profile giving early warning "this person is not being a friend".

As you bring Multibit together with R2R11, I must add that while it is a ladder type, the ladder is not a planar sign-magnitude design like in Audio GD, Denafrips and Soekris, but a segmented architecture. An early model had an AD5547 IC which is only 16bit, some say hardly resolving accurately 8-bits, I think the later model use AD5781 (18-bit) chip of the same segmented ladder type. This is comparing to the 20 or 24-bit discrette ladder of a modern discrete ladder converters. You probably know, our brain can hear details beyond digital quantisation, these extra bits create dithering effect. It helps a smooth reproduction of CD's, especially early CD's that were recorded without any dither applied. However Schiit decided to replace our natural brain ability with the extensive DSP that calculate intersample values (as opposed following the Nyquis/Shannon theory). It makes Modi Multibit sound more similar to the DS converters. I tried to avoid bringing Schiit for comparison, as it is a completely different kind.

R2R11 has no digital pre-processing, it sounds natural. A sound is not refined comparing to the Ares or Audio GD R1/R28 which have a balanced ladder and some limited digital pre-processing to smooth samples. There is no question, Ares sounds better, but costs much more and lacks of headphone amplifier.

I am sure, you are not *stupid enough* to go with Airist (even it were available). It is populated with opamps. And opamps do not like a ladder HF switching noise.


----------



## Baten

sajunky said:


> As you bring Multibit together with R2R11, I must add that while it is a ladder type, the ladder is not a planar sign-magnitude design like in Audio GD, Denafrips and Soekris, but a segmented architecture. An early model had an AD5547 IC which is only 16bit, some say hardly resolving accurately 8-bits, I think the later model use AD5781 (18-bit) chip of the same segmented ladder type. This is comparing to the 20 or 24-bit discrette ladder of a modern discrete ladder converters. You probably know, our brain can hear details beyond digital quantisation, these extra bits create dithering effect. It helps a smooth reproduction of CD's, especially early CD's that were recorded without any dither applied. However Schiit decided to replace our natural brain ability with the extensive DSP that calculate intersample values (as opposed following the Nyquis/Shannon theory). It makes Modi Multibit sound more similar to the DS converters. I tried to avoid bringing Schiit for comparison, as it is a completely different kind.
> 
> R2R11 has no digital pre-processing, it sounds natural. A sounds is not refined comparing to the Ares or Audio GD R1/R28 which have a balanced ladder and some limited digital pre-processing to smooth samples. There is no question, Ares sounds better, but costs much more and lacks of headphone amplifier.
> 
> I am sure, you are not *stupid enough* to go with Airist (even it were available). It is populated with opamps. And opamps do not like a ladder HF switching noise.


-The audio-gd line that was considered best used PCM1704UK chips, which is 24-bit...
-"It is populated with opamps" lool. Not really relevant to this topic but _that's_ your concern with Airist?


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## sajunky (Nov 23, 2020)

Baten said:


> -The audio-gd line that was considered best used PCM1704UK chips, which is 24-bit...
> -"It is populated with opamps" lool. Not really relevant to this topic but _that's_ your concern with Airist?


- Not talking about Singularity models with PCM1704 chips. There was a first discrete ladder design (DA-M1 module) that made Audio GD bad mouth, I think this one: https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/dac-...-32bit-384khz-usb-amanero-silver-p-11851.html

- Why not? Denafrips decided to not use opamps, so it ended up with a passive output. Audio GD use class A non-feedback discrete amplifier.


----------



## Baten

sajunky said:


> - Not talking about Singularity models with PCM1704 chips. There was a first discreted ladder design (DA-M1 module) that made Audio GD bad mouth, I think this one: https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/dac-...-32bit-384khz-usb-amanero-silver-p-11851.html
> 
> - Why not? Denafrips decided to not use opamps, so it ended up with a passive output. Audio GD use class A non-feedback discrete amplifier.


Denafrips not having any line driver whatsoever, can also cause incompatibilities in theory with what you're connecting it to, depending on input impedance. My favorite ever DAC the holo spring 2 is using a proper output stage with some OPAs and there's really no drawback to it, it had the most layered and detailed sound I have heard.


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## sajunky (Nov 23, 2020)

Baten said:


> Denafrips not having any line driver whatsoever, can also cause incompatibilities in theory with what you're connecting it to, depending on input impedance. My favorite ever DAC the holo spring 2 is using a proper output stage with some OPAs and there's really no drawback to it, it had the most layered and detailed sound I have heard.


Correct. Not only in theory, but in practice. High impedance create voltage divider (a volume loss) when paired with non-standard impedance of some amps. An example is Topping A90/L30 and some SMSL amp. Those amps that were designed for the lowest possible SNR. It is not critical when volume loss is not frequency dependent, it is not always the case. It can be a high frequency roll off in the audible range on the inpput filter (I cannot blame amp designers for this).

High output impedance also require quality cables, as common store-and-forward property of dielectric materials becomes more apparent.  On the positive side a cable forms the best capacitor, that helps filtering ladder's HF noise, it reduce intermodulation products on the amps that don't amplify such noise properly (cheap amps).

As for opamps, is the same in Holo May?


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## Baten (Nov 23, 2020)

sajunky said:


> As for opamps, is the same in Holo May?


From Kitsune Audio:

_I/O stages:_ There is an Op Amp used for input stage and discrete component used for the output stage. The discrete output stage is working in pure class A.  It’s BiPolar Junction Transistors, direct coupled.

A common question we get…” Why do you use an Op amp at the input of the DAC?”

The input stage with an opamp is a good choice. It has a paired transistor input by the nature it is manufactured. But an opamp for the output stage is limited due to it’s size and the thermal capability. Also, no one will offer an opamp with class A output as its efficiency is so low. So an opamp used as input and discrete output combined together will have an advantage. It doesn’t mean that all discrete is not good. Actually, if we need to achieve enough low distortion. It needs at least 30-40 transistors. Which not only will it be huge and waste of space but it will also be too costly. I mean, to beat the opamp’s performance, a simple discrete architecture is not possible, although an all discrete design looks beautiful.
We use opamp+discrete architecture for the amp parts of May. Opamp is used for the input stage, discrete is used for the output stage. All the transistors in the opamp are in the same die, then it is matched by nature. This is key because by now, there are few choice for low noise matched pair transistors but an opamp has plenty of them inside. The Output stage is discrete because it generates a bit of heat. We need a class A output stage. So you can see May is very hot compared to other DACs. An opamp output simply can’t handle that power.

__

So no. May uses Class A  output exclusively.


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## sajunky (Nov 23, 2020)

^This. Not much technical, more addressed to the general consumer. There are other factors not mentioned like a maximum slew rate opamp can handle without saturating internal stages. Once it happens, it take long time to remove electricity carriers from the affected area. During this time the output stop following the input (in the best case), or overshot as frequently seen on the osciloscope. What a scope picture doesn't show, is a dead time, it is longer than the overshot itself.

In other words, using opamps is cheap, in some areas there is no replacement (i.e. in a small signal application where there is no worry about sudden rise of slew rate), but it is always a matter of a careful engineering to do it right. Soekris is using opamps (only one in a signal path), it is opa1656, top perfoming chip. He can do it, as he use DSP to smooth signal before it is applied to the ladder and it is not NOS DAC. In the "Airist killer" I spotted a low cost version of the same family opa1678. A similar parameters, just lower SNR. For the entry level DAC it is fully justified. On the other side, in Airist there is a battery of opamps without any sense.


----------



## Lolito

Although I appreciate all the technical information every single time before any marketing krap, at the end of the day, main concern is the type of sound you can get with each DAC. I noticed how to filter reviewers information (80% of reviewers are pure PR), forums users information, and get 50% of the truth. According to that, schitt DACS maybe better than delta sigma, good usb implementation, not really ladder sound, not so analog, something in between. Would love to buy one, already burned in, pay for it, test it for 10-25 days, then keep it or return it, but again... not possible here... Same with the ARES, it is expensive, but YOLO, I would happily pay the 700e+VAT if in a personal AB test in my setup I do notice a real difference that I consider worth those 300€ extra over others...

Audio GD finish, nad overall quality impression, I´m not buying it, sorry. ADAM speakers you get 5 years wrranty. RME is also a company I would trust my money. Audio GD with those crappy plastic switches, those cracking sounds on the Zeos review... those poor measurements...

Yes, you are right about that website, audioscience review, they are crazy people there, a total secta. I was banned 23 times I think there... LOL They do not trust their ears not even a bit. Chifi wins there...


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## sajunky (Nov 25, 2020)

Fully understand, my pain of a poor man... So, @Lolito, what will be your next DAC? Forget look and feel and get a real things for fun - R2R11, the best R2R NOS DAC/HPA, the only real things for $350. I have an older model, a new one has an improved ladder module, an important upgrade for DSD playback. If look and feel is your absolute priority, get Pegasus. It is essentially the same engineeering of Ares II added with a fancy front panel and a bunch of marketing lies. 

If the above is not nice, your entry audiophile level DAC is Ares II. Alternative the Audio GD R1 with even poorer look and feel, but full set of oversampling option to adjust sound to your taste, a broad amp compatibility and a true high-end output through the ACSS interface.

Or wait for the next "Airist killer", DAC1221. There is no NOS, and a smooth sound was a priority, still better than DS converters.


----------



## Slade01

Lolito said:


> Same with the ARES, it is expensive, but YOLO, I would happily pay the 700e+VAT if in a personal AB test in my setup I do notice a real difference that I consider worth those 300€ extra over others...



This may be recent but  check this link:   denafrips EUROPE .  Indicates that KVS audio is now a vinshine audio agent in Europe.  Check with them to see if they have proper return policies and such.  Maybe you can return now if you aren't satisfied.  But its worth looking into.  

Good luck - hope you find what you're looking for.


----------



## Lolito

there is already a great guy selling this from germany. But not gonna buy this product now with all the hype. I will wait for the hype to pass, when there is a new kid on the block and will get one cheap. Thank you.


----------



## Gabehcuod

Audio-GD looks like someone puked on a PCB.
Worst part is their name is too similar to an actually good brand, AGD


----------



## sajunky

Gabehcuod said:


> Audio-GD looks like someone puked on a PCB.


It seems you have no idea... Do you get conclusion based on a photo or an actual PCB?

Crowded with dicrete components, not SMD chips? - Yes. Those are more expensive components and require manual assembly, more expensive again.

Actually soldering work looks of my R2R11 very nice, as they use a quality silver mix solder like some high-end companies. It will not corrode over the time, Not sure whether ROHS approved. .LOL.


----------



## Jukka

Would this dac be a good pairing with my Auris Euterpe? I've read that dac output and amp inputs need to have some sort of good pairing for them to sound good but as a newbie in all things audio (except I like good sound). Thanks!


----------



## Lolito

sajunky said:


> Fully understand, my pain of a poor man... So, @Lolito, what will be your next DAC? Forget look and feel and get a real things for fun - R2R11, the best R2R NOS DAC/HPA, the only real things for $350. I have an older model, a new one has an improved ladder module, an important upgrade for DSD playback. If look and feel is your absolute priority, get Pegasus. It is essentially the same engineeering of Ares II added with a fancy front panel and a bunch of marketing lies.
> 
> If the above is not nice, your entry audiophile level DAC is Ares II. Alternative the Audio GD R1 with even poorer look and feel, but full set of oversampling option to adjust sound to your taste, a broad amp compatibility and a true high-end output through the ACSS interface.
> 
> Or wait for the next "Airist killer", DAC1221. There is no NOS, and a smooth sound was a priority, still better than DS converters.



R2R11 is not cheap and not nice, not gonna buy such a thing ever. I watched zeos review about it... it's very weird device. Tired of throwing money for nothing, not gonna happen. Stick to E30 until Ares goes out of hype or something else shows up.


----------



## sajunky (Dec 7, 2020)

Lolito said:


> R2R11 is not cheap and not nice, not gonna buy such a thing ever. I watched zeos review about it... it's very weird device.


YouTube review? .LOL. 
You don't trust me, fine, but you didn't try, you have absolutely no idea...

BTW, Cheap, I used a wrong word. R2R11 is a solid and well built, but not expensive device delivering a natural, uncompromised sound. Show me better R2R NOS DAC with a discrete class A amplifier, preamp and a decent headphone amplifier at $350 (currently at $323; -7.5% Christmas sale), we can talk.  

There is no better one. Actually there is nothing else present in this price range.
Not nice, agreed; meaning not specially attractive looking.
Do you want good looking? What do you do in the Ares thread in first place? Pegasus is for you.


----------



## Lolito

Talking ares is what i do, you are talking about audio gd, not me. But my opinion about that thing is the same, but still i dont like audio gd offering. I made my mind about separate dac and preamp/headphone amp. A schitt magnius or a topping a90 or my currsnt atom, they all take 2 analog imputs, for turntable or for a second dac. I really dont like audio gd, sorry. But hey, i am completely opened to test it, send me a private message and i send you my address if you ship it for free, no problem with that. Otherwise, i dont like that chinese piece of... Sorry, i will wip me for thinking like that, LOL!!


----------



## sajunky (Dec 7, 2020)

Lolito said:


> magnius or a topping a90 or my currsnt atom, they all take 2 analog imputs, for turntable or for a second dac. I


Topping A90? .LOL.
Really bad choice: First it pairs poor with Denafrips due to the non-standard low input impedance. Remember that Denafrips DACs have a passive output (high impedance).

Secondly, it has design fault which cause spreading ground loops over your entire system. Better (in the same class) is L30 which is free of such defect and much cheaper. However I hear all around that Zen Can is much better amp than L30 for a little more. Go figure.


----------



## Jjrg

Seems like a great DAC. I wonder how it compares with DACs of the same price


----------



## Lolito

sajunky said:


> Topping A90? .LOL.
> Really bad choice: First it pairs poor with Denafrips due to the non-standard low input impedance. Remember that Denafrips DACs have a passive output (high impedance).
> 
> Secondly, it has design fault which cause spreading ground loops over your entire system. Better (in the same class) is L30 which is free of such defect and much cheaper. However I hear all around that Zen Can is much better amp than L30 for a little more. Go figure.



Thanks for the information. I can not confirm or not those things, but I can believe topping not really worth to spend the big bucks, it has no reliability history.
Schiit Magnius then, not the best at all, but at least is cheap. Can combine an "analog" dac, with a "measurements nazi" delta sigma dac. LOL. I got a brand new subwoofer though, so I can already bother the neibours until well over new year, it is holyday season, right?

Would be great if brands like Denafrips were properly distributed in Europe "guitar" shops. Huge companies here. They all have RME already. Yes, it is the pro market. But with no shows coming, no testing... No audio shows until early 2022 is my expectation to be honest.

Can you explain better that problem with the Ares passive output? Nothing of that mentioned in Audio science reviews measurements, 4 at XLR.


----------



## sajunky

Lolito said:


> Would be great if brands like Denafrips were properly distributed in Europe "guitar" shops. Huge companies here. They all have RME already. Yes, it is the pro market. But with no shows coming, no testing... No audio shows until early 2022 is my expectation to be honest.
> 
> Can you explain better that problem with the Ares passive output? Nothing of that mentioned in Audio science reviews measurements, 4 at XLR.


Yip, it is sad. At least you can trust Ares reliability, then find headphone class A amp to get the most from R2R DAC, a nested feedback thingy like THX789, A90/L30 make sound artificially smooth, it is only good for DS DACs where microdetails, reverbation on a decay is already lost. For speakers it is a bigger investment I have Denon PMA-520AE, it is quite satisfactory. However you can stay with DS DAC if your favourite music is EDM, electronic production to annoy your neighbours like Calvin Harris. I am talking about presentation of acoustic instruments, if you care, think about.

Matching Ares output impedance important. A standard output impedance is less than 100 Ohms and input impedance is 47kOhms. It is doubling for a balanced connection. Ares gives 670 Ohms, you get a voltage divider on the input impedance (not critical), but any RC filter on the input will cause a high frequency roll-off that can falll in the audio range. In addition I am not sure how loading a ladder with low impedance is affecting linearity of the ladder. In other words you should match Denafrips DAC with a device having a standard input impedance.


----------



## abickers

Worth a try.


----------



## VintageAudio

abickers said:


> Worth a try.




Thanks for posting.  Of course we will "want" to believe that this makes a difference if we try these tips with our ears...I'm wondering if someone would be able to measure before and after the turning to see if there is actually a difference.

Maybe a job for Archimago?


----------



## gto88

interesting, but I can't correlated the mechanical to electrical, yes, the pcb stress from the tight screw is a good point, but
how does a relax pcb affect the sound is a mystery to me if one can hear difference.


----------



## VintageAudio

gto88 said:


> interesting, but I can't correlated the mechanical to electrical, yes, the pcb stress from the tight screw is a good point, but
> how does a relax pcb affect the sound is a mystery to me if one can hear difference.



Could it have something to do with physical connection of the solder joints having better/worse contact?  I mean when you have a loose cable connector it can cause intermittent sound problems..

Also the 2nd video seems to have some relationship to resonance.  People spend money on acoustic feet, thick, heavy cases.  I dunno, seems plausible, but as we know many companies capitalize on pseudo-science mumbo jumbo to sell expensive accessories.

In this case, it doesn't really cost anything, just a tweak.

Would still love to see some scientific test to validate the theory.


----------



## daytrader

> So who's got one and what are you running your filter setting on, NOS or OS? And if OS, slow or sharpe roll off?  I’m sure the filter setting is system dependent and obviously personal preference but I’d still like to hear from others and their thoughts on filter choice?
> 
> I've tried them all since having it and keep going back to NOS even when I know I'm missing some top end sizzle. I'm currently running the Ares II in my Stax 700Ls / Stax 007tII ”ear speakers”.  Sounds wonderful.  Oh yes, and I’m trying my hardest to stop reading Pontus review!


----------



## ksorota

Been running the Ares II for about two weeks now and have preferred the NOS mode.  

My setup includes MacMini m1, Denafrips (Iris-new), Ares, Freya S, Vidar to HE6 and I could not be more happy with the sound.  

The AresII is very engaging and a nice pairing with the HE6.  The resulting sound sig is smooth and detailed..and it just draws you in.  I just installed the Iris today and will need some more time to give thoughts, but upon first listen it produces a clear increase in space around the notes and soundstage is both wider and more clear.  Its not one thing i can pinpoint, just a more airy feeling overall on an already airy DAC.  

Alvin pointed out that if I buy the Iris that I should start looking towards the Pontus...as much as I want to say I do not need to upgrade he then proceeded to send me some glowing reviews.  The savings will start building now and sometime next year maybe I will get to add one to my setup.  The Ares II is a fantastic DAC and it supplanted my Bifrost MB w/unison.  Comparing the two is tough now since its been a few weeks, but I think the Ares II just matches up better with HE6 than Bifrost.


----------



## daytrader

ksorota said:


> Been running the Ares II for about two weeks now and have preferred the NOS mode.
> 
> My setup includes MacMini m1, Denafrips (Iris-new), Ares, Freya S, Vidar to HE6 and I could not be more happy with the sound.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your comments, it is very engaging in NOS mode as it kept drawing me back to reset those damn little buttons. LOL
I’m also happy to hear I’m not the only one with Pontus fever.  Alvin is a super nice guy, I‘ve found him very responsive and great with customer service!  BTW, don’t even look at the Venus reviews if you can help it, as they say “it will just take you further down the rabbit hole”.


----------



## PopZeus (Dec 18, 2020)

Ugh, I've had nothing but freezing and crashes when I take the Ares II off of standby. Has anyone else had any issues with the USB implementation with Mac OSX?


----------



## ksorota

PopZeus said:


> Ugh, I've had nothing but freezing and crashes when I take the Ares II off of standby. Has anyone else had any issues with the USB implementation with Mac OSX?


Yeah i have this problem also on my m1 mac mini. Happens reliably every time i hit standby, so now I do not hit it.

luckily the mac reboots quickly!  Still annoying however.


----------



## alvin1118

May I know does it happens when you hit standby button to turn on the Ares II, or it happens when you hit standby button to put the Ares II in standby mode?


----------



## ksorota

The 


alvin1118 said:


> May I know does it happens when you hit standby button to turn on the Ares II, or it happens when you hit standby button to put the Ares II in standby mode?


It happens on the second press, when bringing the Ares II out of standby.


----------



## PopZeus (Dec 19, 2020)

alvin1118 said:


> May I know does it happens when you hit standby button to turn on the Ares II, or it happens when you hit standby button to put the Ares II in standby mode?



When I take the Ares II out of standby mode, and the USB bus recognizes the device (whether I'm plugged directly or through a USB hub), my Mac freezes immediately, almost without exception. It's working now, but I don't want to ever turn it off or put it on standby now.


----------



## Baten

PopZeus said:


> When I take the Ares II out of standby mode, and the USB bus recognizes the device (whether I'm plugged directly or through a USB hub), my Mac freezes immediately, almost without exception. It's working now, but I don't want to ever turn it off or put it on standby now.


Funny. I own a DDC which the Ares II licenses the transport from (company called Xing) and I have the same thing!!
This one https://www.head-fi.org/threads/singxer-su-6.902272/post-15997150


----------



## ]eep (Dec 19, 2020)

have you tried switching to another input before putting it in standby? The usb only comes on when you select it. When switching while on it could avoid a surge you might get from powering the usb on from a cold boot. So after turning it on, switch to usb.

Same principle i learned for powering off an amp or switching inputs; first turn the volume down to avoid loud thumps.


----------



## ksorota

]eep said:


> have you tried switching to another input before putting it in standby? The usb only comes on when you select it. When switching while on it could avoid a surge you might get from powering the usb on from a cold boot. So after turning it on, switch to usb.
> 
> Same principle i learned for powering off an amp or switching inputs; first turn the volume down to avoid loud thumps.


 Unfortunately that doesn’t work either. If i go from USB to coax and then back the same freeze happens.

Best solution so far has been adding the Iris... no more freezes in standby😑


----------



## simon740

Hello,

Im planning to buy Ares II. Will be this dac good for my UR Simply Italy and Piega Classic 5.0 speakers?

regards,
Simon


----------



## ]eep

probably. I found r2r a good match for SE tubes and ribbon/Amt tweeters.


----------



## simon740

]eep said:


> probably. I found r2r a good match for SE tubes and ribbon/Amt tweeters.


Thank you.


----------



## professor55

Sorry if I missed this earlier in the thread, but has anyone tried inverting the phase? I’m running Over Sampling mode with slow filter, with the phase LED lit, and I like it better. It has a deeper soundstage, and sounds more natural. 
-XLR out of ARES II into Denefrips Hestia preamp into Crown XLS 1502 into speakers/headphones (Schiit Asgard 3) 
Thoughts?


----------



## shafat777

What's the verdict on NOS vs OS mode? I just received my ARES 2 and so far I am loving the OS mode. With nos, the vocals sound magnificent with wife sojndtage but the low end sounds muddy and veiled. Is this right? Or am I missing something? This is my first foray into the world of R2R dacs so I could use some suggestion as to how to optimally set it up


----------



## Baten

shafat777 said:


> What's the verdict on NOS vs OS mode? I just received my ARES 2 and so far I am loving the OS mode. With nos, the vocals sound magnificent with wife sojndtage but the low end sounds muddy and veiled. Is this right? Or am I missing something? This is my first foray into the world of R2R dacs so I could use some suggestion as to how to optimally set it up


NOS tends to be an acquired taste, most people would prefer regular oversampling which is sharper with better refined edges. NOS sounds softer/fuzzier but also different.


----------



## sajunky (Jan 7, 2021)

shafat777 said:


> What's the verdict on NOS vs OS mode? I just received my ARES 2 and so far I am loving the OS mode. With nos, the vocals sound magnificent with wife sojndtage but the low end sounds muddy and veiled. Is this right? Or am I missing something? This is my first foray into the world of R2R dacs so I could use some suggestion as to how to optimally set it up


Amplification matters.... Bass shows a weaknes. It should be fast and accurate, but soft, not edgy. 60Hz leak will most affect bass silky presentation and low mids. Perhaps Ares should have I2S.


----------



## daytrader

shafat777 said:


> What's the verdict on NOS vs OS mode? I just received my ARES 2 and so far I am loving the OS mode. With nos, the vocals sound magnificent with wife sojndtage but the low end sounds muddy and veiled. Is this right? Or am I missing something? This is my first foray into the world of R2R dacs so I could use some suggestion as to how to optimally set it up


Depends on the music, use your finger when needed. 💡


----------



## daytrader

sajunky said:


> Amplification matters.... Bass shows a weaknes. It should be fast and accurate, but soft, not edgy. 60Hz leak will most affect bass silky presentation and low mids. Perhaps Ares should have I2S.


Perhaps a button on a remote to quickly toggle between both?


----------



## Gabehcuod

professor55 said:


> Sorry if I missed this earlier in the thread, but has anyone tried inverting the phase? I’m running Over Sampling mode with slow filter, with the phase LED lit, and I like it better. It has a deeper soundstage, and sounds more natural.
> -XLR out of ARES II into Denefrips Hestia preamp into Crown XLS 1502 into speakers/headphones (Schiit Asgard 3)
> Thoughts?


Maybe your wiring was already out of phase and this corrected it.


----------



## daytrader

Gabehcuod said:


> Maybe your wiring was already out of phase and this corrected it.


That is absolutely, pun unintended, right!


----------



## sajunky

daytrader said:


> Perhaps a button on a remote to quickly toggle between both?


So you would keep changing interface between tracks without picking up your ass, right?


----------



## daytrader (Jan 8, 2021)

sajunky said:


> So you would keep changing interface between tracks without picking up your ass, right?


well, changing between tracks is a little psychotic, but ok!  Ass sits comfortably in my chair next to my Stax stack. 🎧

🙄


----------



## shafat777

After a lot of going back and forth, Ive decided to settle with the OS mode and slow filter. This gives the most detailed sound with a deep, wide sounstage. Also, this mode seems the most clean sound signature with my Feliks Elise as well.


----------



## daytrader

shafat777 said:


> After a lot of going back and forth, Ive decided to settle with the OS mode and slow filter. This gives the most detailed sound with a deep, wide sounstage. Also, this mode seems the most clean sound signature with my Feliks Elise as well.


It’s what I have found optimal for me and what many reviews I‘ve read seem to agree on for most types of music. Used in my ear speaker stack I’ve been very pleased at what the Ares II does to convert the digital signal.


----------



## shafat777

daytrader said:


> It’s what I have found optimal for me and what many reviews I‘ve read seem to agree on for most types of music. Used in my ear speaker stack I’ve been very pleased at what the Ares II does to convert the digital signal.


This is only my 3rd day with this dac and maybe down the road, when i do some tube rolling with my Elise, I might give NOS mode another shot to see if i can clean up the low veil, but until then, I m happy with OS. Now the bigger question is, what should i do with my D90?


----------



## julien-hifi

shafat777 said:


> Now the bigger question is, what should i do with my D90?


I sold mine , denapris ares 2 is better for my taste


----------



## Shane D

To the veteran owners here, would the Ares II be a good match with my amps?
1) Monolith Liquid Platinum. sE and XLR in, but meant to be used balanced out.

2) Violectric V220. Has SE and XLR in but only has SE output.

Currently using an SMSL SU-8. Debating between this and the Bifrost 2.

Thanks for any feedback.


----------



## shafat777

Shane D said:


> To the veteran owners here, would the Ares II be a good match with my amps?
> 1) Monolith Liquid Platinum. sE and XLR in, but meant to be used balanced out.
> 
> 2) Violectric V220. Has SE and XLR in but only has SE output.
> ...


Sup shane?
Long time no see brother. Even though I'm not a veteran owner, I think I can answer your question. I actually had the chance to try out the ares 2 with my LP. It results in a soundstage that's is really wide and deep. The tonal balance is superb with every frequency being crisper and more controlled. Compared to the ares 2, my D90 sounds clostophobic and music sounds sharp and accurate, while the ares 2 sounds more musical and euphonic. The soundstage is the biggest plus of the ares 2. So if it helps, let's say that if I put the D90 on the left side of the scale, the ares 2 would be on the right side, those are really different instruments. Since you mentioned the bifrost 2, its has a little bit of both, it has a sound signature close to that of the ares 2 but with the technical ability of the D90 so I would place the bifrost directly in-between the two above mentioned dacs, leaning slightly towards the D90.

If you're looking for something that sounds really different than your smsl, get the R2r ares 2. But if you want the R2r flavor with a hint of the D90 technicality, I would suggest the bifrost. Hope this helps. Let me know if you need me to do more tests with the LP


----------



## Shane D

shafat777 said:


> Sup shane?
> Long time no see brother. Even though I'm not a veteran owner, I think I can answer your question. I actually had the chance to try out the ares 2 with my LP. It results in a soundstage that's is really wide and deep. The tonal balance is superb with every frequency being crisper and more controlled. Compared to the ares 2, my D90 sounds clostophobic and music sounds sharp and accurate, while the ares 2 sounds more musical and euphonic. The soundstage is the biggest plus of the ares 2. So if it helps, let's say that if I put the D90 on the left side of the scale, the ares 2 would be on the right side, those are really different instruments. Since you mentioned the bifrost 2, its has a little bit of both, it has a sound signature close to that of the ares 2 but with the technical ability of the D90 so I would place the bifrost directly in-between the two above mentioned dacs, leaning slightly towards the D90.
> 
> If you're looking for something that sounds really different than your smsl, get the R2r ares 2. But if you want the R2r flavor with a hint of the D90 technicality, I would suggest the bifrost. Hope this helps. Let me know if you need me to do more tests with the LP



Thanks for the reply! A lot of people seem to love the Bifrost 2 with the LP. 
The Violectric V220 is my favourite amp and I would like to eventually upgrade to the V280 or the V281.

Here in Canada my landed cost is:
Ares II is $1,025.00, plus tax (15%) with 3 yr warranty, I believe. And I am certainly not going to ship back to Singapore for repair, so...

BF2 is $975.00, plus tax with a 5yr warranty and upgradeability

I SO wish I could actually hear both, but that is not an option.


----------



## shafat777

Shane D said:


> Thanks for the reply! A lot of people seem to love the Bifrost 2 with the LP.
> The Violectric V220 is my favourite amp and I would like to eventually upgrade to the V280 or the V281.
> 
> Here in Canada my landed cost is:
> ...


Honestly, I had a bifrost 2 in my cart and ready to purchase. Judging from review, it's the best of both worlds, delta sigma vs R2r. There are quiet a few reviews ou there that suggest that bifrost 2 plays really well with tube amps due to its musical ability. Even though I have a ares 2 now, I will most likely also get a bifrost 2 and have them both. Honestly, after using the D90 for so long and first hand experiencing the magic of ares 2, I think I'm ready to part ways with my D90. I don't think the D90 is bad, by any means. In fact, I actually like it paired with my gsx-mini. The ares 2 is so musical. It actually makes my elise sound like a tube amp. On top of everything, it has a very holographic sound stage. It makes every headphone I own sound wide, even the closed back one. In that sense, I think the bifrost 2 would serve you well. If anything, it will give you a different sound compared to your smsl, which I believe is a delta sigma dac. Schiit giuvyes you a 15 day return policy so I think you should do it. I will bet my Ares 2 that you'll love it 😉


----------



## YtseJamer

New Ares II review

https://www.audiophilia.com/reviews/2020/11/30/denafrips-dac


----------



## Gabehcuod

Anyone have experience with Ares II and Iris?


----------



## ]eep (Jan 9, 2021)

shafat777 said:


> What's the verdict on NOS vs OS mode? I just received my ARES 2 and so far I am loving the OS mode. With nos, the vocals sound magnificent with wife sojndtage but the low end sounds muddy and veiled. Is this right? Or am I missing something? This is my first foray into the world of R2R dacs so I could use some suggestion as to how to optimally set it up


I think your terminology is rather subjective and has a very negative connotation. R2R doesn't truncate notes but gives a real sustain and ambiance. It does not pre-echo so you don't get the introduction to transients only minor decay (1/2 samples worth, a lot less than natural decay). It's like the sharpen or unsharp mask effect in a photo editing program. When you exaggerate the effect you get white and black edges around all details. This is really ugly and certainly not natural and its an easy way to cover up for lack of resolution. But its much better to start with a better, higher resolution photo that is unedited. 

Delta sigma dac's tend to make even more artificial detail than OS. Oversampling does that too but rather less. If you need to detox you might want a bit of that extra fizz. Your choice. Its good to have choice.

Muddy implies smearing and low slewrate, veiled implies that information is withheld. This is definitely not the case with NOS. OS is averaging data, making things up. In my experience this is artificial, comparing to live music NOS comes closer to what i hear than oversampling. IMO this is the only reference that matters. We have all been flooded with artificial glitter, cosmetics, photoshopped images, boob-jobs, bleached teetch, bad sound and glitter over the last decades, so much that we hardly recognise real skin, original thoughts and natural sounds. We don't need a paradigm change but a brain reset sometimes. Not a new way of thinking or interpreting but back to the basics, real live life, sound thinking.


----------



## shafat777 (Jan 9, 2021)

Ohhh okay. Sorry for my subjective and negative terminology. 

Also, sorry for stating my personal opinion and impression that I experienced myself.


----------



## sajunky (Jan 9, 2021)

@shafat777. You shouldn't feel sorry for sharing your opinion. I know that you prefer OS over NOS. Most of people do, nothing to be ashamed for. Your preference depend on a music. Most of popular music is mastered for playing equally well on a cheap equipment, which Delta Sigma. Such music has already lost a natural timbre (or never had) and it is even worse with texture. As DS converters do not reproduce natural timbre properly and do produce false harmonics on texture, nobody cares of preserving natural presentation. It is why OS sounds better, it is understandeable. Don't worry, with R2R DAC (even in OS mode) you have a chance to discover new music that didn't sound attractive on D90.

I had been using R2R player (with PCM63 chip) for long time and when it was a time for replacement, I was fooled by mass media and business oriented websites that technology has advanced over the time, in result I wasted $130 on Topping D30. A Nobsound 8xTDA1387 ($42 product) has opened my eyes and replaced D30 on my desk before I got a opportunity for something to match quality of HD600. I do prefer NOS, but my music taste was shaped over number of years.


----------



## Slade01

]eep said:


> Muddy implies smearing and low slewrate, veiled implies that information is withheld. This is definitely not the case with NOS.





shafat777 said:


> Ohhh okay. Sorry for my subjective and negative terminology.
> Also, sorry for stating my personal opinion and impression that I experienced myself.



@shafat777 I think all @]eep is trying to say is that  as far NOS goes, it should not result in the "muddy/veiled" sound because by nature NOS does not muck the the data up in the way DS or to some degree OS.  But yeah, both ]eep and sajunky have been around R2R and both really know their stuff when it comes to the R2R science.  

I bounce around between NOS and OS/Slow Filter myself.  I'm sure the rest of your chain will make a difference for what works best also.


----------



## sajunky (Jan 9, 2021)

@shafat777. I wrote in one of my previous messages that a reason for a muddy lows could be ground loops, it is a short note, perhaps it is why the essence was unnoticed: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/den...ladder-dac-close-up-view.833690/post-16090385

A good solution is to use DDC between source and a DAC. Unfortunately Ares do not have I2S input which is the ideal interface for use with DDC. I would recommend DDC for everyone, but I don't know what to suggest in such case, Cheap USB purifying devices do not work, maybe converteres to S/PDIF or AES?.

@Lolito. If you have one unused, I am completely opened to test it, send me a private message and i send you my address if you ship it for free, no problem with that. 

My R2R-11 would definitely benefit from removing ground loops. I do use ferrite clamps on the USB cable and very short lenght of power cables connected to the same power outlet. It is helping a lot, but  not solving the problem.

Trying Bitrfost is wasting a time, IHMO. Better plannig is required with a good USB galvanic isolation or a specialised device like DDC.


----------



## shafat777

All of my audio equipments are connected to a furman power conditioner. I've never had any issue with ground loops. Maybe tonight I ll try the asio method rather than wasapi with foobar. Either way, I am happy with both modes, I just happen to like os life better than nos. That's all


----------



## sajunky

shafat777 said:


> All of my audio equipments are connected to a furman power conditioner. I've never had any issue with ground loops. Maybe tonight I ll try the asio method rather than wasapi with foobar. Either way, I am happy with both modes, I just happen to like os life better than nos. That's all


All, including PC?


----------



## shafat777

The pc is connected to another seperate outlet


----------



## sajunky

shafat777 said:


> The pc is connected to another seperate outlet


It looks like I picked up a right things. It is why ground loop is a problem. A link to the PC breaks power conditioning. However I don't advice to put PC on the Furman outlet. It is better to get galvanic isolation on the USB connection.


----------



## shafat777

sajunky said:


> It looks like I picked up a right things. It is why ground loop is a problem. A link to the PC breaks power conditioning. However I don't advice to put PC on the Furman outlet. It is better to get galvanic isolation on the USB connection.


So what should I do? What do you recommend?


----------



## 312elements

shafat777 said:


> Sup shane?
> Long time no see brother. Even though I'm not a veteran owner, I think I can answer your question. I actually had the chance to try out the ares 2 with my LP. It results in a soundstage that's is really wide and deep. The tonal balance is superb with every frequency being crisper and more controlled. Compared to the ares 2, my D90 sounds clostophobic and music sounds sharp and accurate, while the ares 2 sounds more musical and euphonic. The soundstage is the biggest plus of the ares 2. So if it helps, let's say that if I put the D90 on the left side of the scale, the ares 2 would be on the right side, those are really different instruments. Since you mentioned the bifrost 2, its has a little bit of both, it has a sound signature close to that of the ares 2 but with the technical ability of the D90 so I would place the bifrost directly in-between the two above mentioned dacs, leaning slightly towards the D90.
> 
> If you're looking for something that sounds really different than your smsl, get the R2r ares 2. But if you want the R2r flavor with a hint of the D90 technicality, I would suggest the bifrost. Hope this helps. Let me know if you need me to do more tests with the LP



That was such a nice evaluation/comparison. I really appreciate it. I've been eyeing the classifieds for an Ares II, but this made me want to just pull the trigger and order one. Did you order yours from Singapore? Was it a good experience?


----------



## shafat777

312elements said:


> That was such a nice evaluation/comparison. I really appreciate it. I've been eyeing the classifieds for an Ares II, but this made me want to just pull the trigger and order one. Did you order yours from Singapore? Was it a good experience?


I bought it from a member here. Him and I did business before and I saw him trying to sell his so I had to get it. From what I heard, vinshine audio has excellent service. Good communication. My biggest concern would be the shipping from Singapore, that's why I waited to buy it from someone in the forum. If you are hesitant about it, then you can give the Schiit bifrost 2 a try, I heard it's the same caliber of ares 2


----------



## ]eep (Jan 9, 2021)

i realize this sounds like a rant. Sorry about that. It's just I'm amazed at the lack of sound thinking lately. As if all 'opinions' are pre-cooked.

The review that was just mentioned seems like a good review. Buy man, the other reviews... such expensive gear. It's not that I have a problem with luxury gear and prices but it sort of forms a mindset of the reviewer.

I bought my unit from Vinshine in Singapore and it all worked perfectly. Fast shipping, good service and communication.


----------



## 312elements

shafat777 said:


> I bought it from a member here. Him and I did business before and I saw him trying to sell his so I had to get it. From what I heard, vinshine audio has excellent service. Good communication. My biggest concern would be the shipping from Singapore, that's why I waited to buy it from someone in the forum. If you are hesitant about it, then you can give the Schiit bifrost 2 a try, I heard it's the same caliber of ares 2



I'm with you on the Singapore thing. I'll put a post in the WTB classifieds and see what comes of it. Bifrost 2 has been on backorder or I probably would have ordered one already. Thanks for the info.


----------



## sajunky

]eep said:


> i realize this sounds like a rant. Sorry about that.


Yes.


----------



## Shane D

shafat777 said:


> Honestly, I had a bifrost 2 in my cart and ready to purchase. Judging from review, it's the best of both worlds, delta sigma vs R2r. There are quiet a few reviews ou there that suggest that bifrost 2 plays really well with tube amps due to its musical ability. Even though I have a ares 2 now, I will most likely also get a bifrost 2 and have them both. Honestly, after using the D90 for so long and first hand experiencing the magic of ares 2, I think I'm ready to part ways with my D90. I don't think the D90 is bad, by any means. In fact, I actually like it paired with my gsx-mini. The ares 2 is so musical. It actually makes my elise sound like a tube amp. On top of everything, it has a very holographic sound stage. It makes every headphone I own sound wide, even the closed back one. In that sense, I think the bifrost 2 would serve you well. If anything, it will give you a different sound compared to your smsl, which I believe is a delta sigma dac. Schiit giuvyes you a 15 day return policy so I think you should do it. I will bet my Ares 2 that you'll love it 😉



After writing my thought out with you and another member I decided trhat my mind was pretty much already made up. I orderd the BF2 tonight. It is supposed to ship next Friday. We'll see. Thanks for helping to sharpen my clarity.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

Shane D said:


> To the veteran owners here, would the Ares II be a good match with my amps?
> 1) Monolith Liquid Platinum. sE and XLR in, but meant to be used balanced out.
> 
> 2) Violectric V220. Has SE and XLR in but only has SE output.
> ...


I know it's too late but the Audio-gd R2R-11 is rather an unbelieveable dacamp for the money and even not for the money.


----------



## 312elements

Shane D said:


> After writing my thought out with you and another member I decided trhat my mind was pretty much already made up. I orderd the BF2 tonight. It is supposed to ship next Friday. We'll see. Thanks for helping to sharpen my clarity.


I'm very curious to hear your thoughts. Please circle back once you've had a chance to compare.


----------



## sajunky

312elements said:


> I'm very curious to hear your thoughts. Please circle back once you've had a chance to compare.


I am afraid, BF2 cannot stand up against Ares II.

Ares requires a good amp, as a passive I/V output carries a lot of ultrasonic noise (up to 30MHz), but it has a potential for a top SQ. BF2 is less demanding on the quality of amplifier, will work well on a cheap equipment.


----------



## shafat777

Shane D said:


> After writing my thought out with you and another member I decided that my mind was pretty much already made up. I orders the BF2 tonight. It is supposed to ship next Friday. We'll see. Thanks for helping to sharpen my clarity.


My pleasure brother. I think you ll be in for a treat. I am extremely curious to hear your impression and opinion. Is this your first non delta sigma dac? Hopefully it ships soon and you get to test it out. I think ive made up my mind about the D90, its getting sold. But ive always been curious about owning two dacs so if you and other members like the Bf2, then i might just get it and have it as my secondary unit.


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## sajunky (Jan 9, 2021)

gimmeheadroom said:


> I know it's too late but the Audio-gd R2R-11 is rather an unbelieveable dacamp for the money and even not for the money.


It is never late, but people decisions are proportional to the marketing muscle. Shiit on top, Denafrips much smaller and Audio GD is not present at all. Only promoted by happy users like myself.


----------



## 312elements

sajunky said:


> I am afraid, BF2 cannot stand up against Ares II.
> 
> Ares requires a good amp, as a passive I/V output carries a lot of ultrasonic noise (up to 30MHz), but it has a potential for a top SQ. BF2 is less demanding on the quality of amplifier, will work well on a cheap equipment.



This is going to feed a WA22 which I use as a preamp for my 2 channel setup and my main headphone rig. In your opinion will that signal chain realize the benefits that the Ares II has over the BF2?


----------



## gimmeheadroom

sajunky said:


> It never is late, decisions are proportional to the marketing muscle. Shiit on top, Denafrips much smaller and Audio GD is not present at all. Only promoted by happy users like myself.


It is a popular brand but I feel the build quality is really not very good until you get to their higher end gear and even that I'm not sure about. But they don't do DSD or MQA, I can't see spending money on what's in the end really chifi designed in America vs. the other possibilities which run off wall sockets rather than wallwarts and are much better values.


----------



## sajunky

312elements said:


> This is going to feed a WA22 which I use as a preamp for my 2 channel setup and my main headphone rig. In your opinion will that signal chain realize the benefits that the Ares II has over the BF2?


Whoow! Certainly it must be a good amp. Don't waste your money on BF2.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

sajunky said:


> Whoow! Certainly it must be a good amp. Don't waste your money on BF2.


While he's at it there are some appealing choices in R2R from Audio-gd between 800-1000 USD if I recall. Might be worth considering alongside the Denafrips.


----------



## shafat777

May i ask whats so wrong about the BF2?


----------



## Shane D

312elements said:


> I'm very curious to hear your thoughts. Please circle back once you've had a chance to compare.



I won't be able to compare as I don't have an ARES II.


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## Shane D

shafat777 said:


> My pleasure brother. I think you ll be in for a treat. I am extremely curious to hear your impression and opinion. Is this your first non delta sigma dac? Hopefully it ships soon and you get to test it out. I think ive made up my mind about the D90, its getting sold. But ive always been curious about owning two dacs so if you and other members like the Bf2, then i might just get it and have it as my secondary unit.



I agree that owning both would be awesome.


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## daytrader (Jan 9, 2021)

sajunky said:


> It is never late, but people decisions are proportional to the marketing muscle. Shiit on top, Denafrips much smaller and Audio GD is not present at all. Only promoted by happy users like myself.


Are you..., are you really? 🤡


----------



## 312elements

@sajunky @gimmeheadroom the other one I'm considering is the MHDT Orchid. Unfortunately I can't figure out how to order any of the Audio-GD stuff. Definitely open to suggestions.


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## sajunky (Jan 9, 2021)

gimmeheadroom said:


> While he's at it there are some appealing choices in R2R from Audio-gd between 800-1000 USD if I recall. Might be worth considering alongside the Denafrips.


Yes, there is R-1 ($850) with I2S, recently upgraded to 2021 version, good choice for those who already have a good pre-amp with a headamp. It can be paired with DI-20HE for the best separation from PC noise. It is on the market over one year and I didn't see users unhappy from this combination. When upgrading from my R2R-11 I would rather chose R-28 which has a headphone amplifier with pre-amp. More high-end solutions are with Master 9 amp, but I am afraid, I will never afford it.

On the Denafrips side there is Pontus that has I2S for connecting to the DDC devices like DI-20, Iris, Gaia.


----------



## daytrader

sajunky said:


> Yes, there is R-1 ($850) with I2S, recently upgraded to 2021 version, good choice for those who already have a good pre-amp with a headamp. It can be paired with DI-20HE for the best separation from PC noise. It is on the market over one year and I didn't see users unhappy from this combination. When upgrading from my R2R-11 I would rather chose R-28 which has a headphone apmlifier with pre-amp. More high-end solutions are with Master 9 amp, but I am afraid, I will never afford it.
> 
> On the Denafrips side there is Pontus that has I2S for connecting to the DDC devices like DI-20, Iris, Gaia.


I get my Pontus at the end of the month, I’ll let you know. 🗿


----------



## gimmeheadroom

312elements said:


> @sajunky @gimmeheadroom the other one I'm considering is the MHDT Orchid. Unfortunately I can't figure out how to order any of the Audio-GD stuff. Definitely open to suggestions.


You just email Kingwa at the email address shown on the site. His English is almost as bad as my Chinese but he is a good guy and will set up any tweaks you want and give you a bottom line price on the gear you're asking about.


----------



## 312elements

sajunky said:


> Yes, there is R-1 ($850) with I2S, recently upgraded to 2021 version, good choice for those who already have a good pre-amp with a headamp. It can be paired with DI-20HE for the best separation from PC noise. It is on the market over one year and I didn't see users unhappy from this combination. When upgrading from my R2R-11 I would rather chose R-28 which has a headphone apmlifier with pre-amp. More high-end solutions are with Master 9 amp, but I am afraid, I will never afford it.
> 
> On the Denafrips side there is Pontus that has I2S for connecting to the DDC devices like DI-20, Iris, Gaia.



Those Audio GD guys need to invest in some web design. There's no way I'm putting my CC information in that website. Maybe I need to grow a pair, but it seriously looks like a sketchy operation based on their web presence.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

312elements said:


> Those Audio GD guys need to invest in some web design. There's no way I'm putting my CC information in that website. Maybe I need to grow a pair, but it seriously looks like a sketchy operation based on their web presence.


Clearly all the money goes into R&D and manufacturing, agreed the website is kind of a horror show. But they're definitely good guys.

I think they send you a paypal invoice if you want to pay that way. I didn't put anything into a website form except maybe the initial query.


----------



## sajunky

gimmeheadroom said:


> Clearly all the money goes into R&D and manufacturing, agreed the website is kind of a horror show. But they're definitely good guys.


I did exchange Emails with Mr Kingwa, he is a HiFi enthusiast, amoung the entire team. His advice is difficult to understand at times, but trully honest, disregarding possible benefits from sales.


----------



## 312elements

gimmeheadroom said:


> Clearly all the money goes into R&D and manufacturing, agreed the website is kind of a horror show. But they're definitely good guys.
> 
> I think they send you a paypal invoice if you want to pay that way. I didn't put anything into a website form except maybe the initial query.



that’s good to know, but between Wordpress and Squarespace getting a legit website these days isn’t rocket science. Maybe he’ll trade me some gear for a website.


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## Pharmaboy (Jan 9, 2021)

Shane D said:


> Thanks for the reply! A lot of people seem to love the Bifrost 2 with the LP.
> The Violectric V220 is my favourite amp and I would like to eventually upgrade to the V280 or the V281.
> 
> Here in Canada my landed cost is:
> ...



I don't own the denafrips but still feel like replying--inspired by your mention of the V281 (my best & favorite amp).

After years of using various delta-sigma DACs (medium price at best, not SOTA designs), I tired of familiar digital nasties that seemed present to some degree no matter whihc powered speakers & headphone amp/headphone combinations I tried (bright/aggressive upper mids/lower trebles; sibilance in vocals; overly dry, 2D bass, etc). So starting about 4 yrs ago I got a NOS DAC (Audio GD NOS 19, since sold); then a multibit DAC (Audio GD DAC-19); then another NOS DAC (MHDT Labs Orchid). Now I use the multibit in my side-system (HP only) and the NOS in my main system (HP amps, preamp, class D amp, passive monitors, sub).

Through the years of different DACs, I've had many different amps & headphones in the 2 systems. Here's what I've concluded:

Rather than thinking of a specific NOS or multibit DAC as an ideal (or less than ideal) match for a particular HP amp or headphone...think of it as an ideal (or less than ideal) match for _any/every amp/headphone, as well as speakers_. In other words, as a system match for any gear you may own in future, not just a match for a current device
I've had as many as 8 headphone amps at a given time (currently it's 6, all different designs & power ratings). None of my amps need help to get tonality right; they sound very good to begin with. So w/NOS and multibit DACs driving them, they still sound good in the same ways as before--but absent some of those digital excesses that used to bleed through (however slightly) with d/s DACs. It's not as if my NOS & multibit DAC are transforming my ugly duckling amps into sonic swans...it's more like these amps have a little more sonic upside than before.
Similarly, my various headphones need no help with tonality. I chose each because its voicing pleased me. But w/a NOS or multibit DAC driving them, they sound like they always did, but not dragged down in minor sonic ways I associate with delta-sigma DACs (again, a little more sonic upside).
I have a ~ 1 dozen .wav files I've used for years to audition HPs & amps. A couple cuts were borderline bright & shouty on the source CD (though not at all on source vinyl). When I used d/s DACs, I always heard the borderline brightness/shoutiness to at least some degree, though it varied (not all d/s DACs sound alike). But w/NOS and multibit DACs, I am rarely aware of the  brightness/shoutiness unless I happen to be using a borrowed headphone that itself _is_ borderline bright. Instead what I hear is a couple dynamic, exciting examples of popular genres.


----------



## sajunky

312elements said:


> that’s good to know, but between Wordpress and Squarespace getting a legit website these days isn’t rocket science. Maybe he’ll trade me some gear for a website.


When having problem understanding home website, I go this website, the European dealer who also offers good service, BTW. 
https://magnahifi.com/brand/audio-gd/


----------



## Pharmaboy

sajunky said:


> When having problem understanding home website, I go this website, the European dealer who also offers good service, BTW.
> https://magnahifi.com/brand/audio-gd/



I bought my my 2 Audio GD DACs from Magna HiFi. I can't recommend them highly enough.


----------



## 312elements

Pharmaboy said:


> I don't own the denafrips but still feel like replying--inspired by your mention of the V281 (my best & favorite amp).
> 
> After years of using various delta-sigma DACs (medium price at best, not SOTA designs), I tired of familiar digital nasties that seemed present to some degree no matter whihc powered speakers & headphone amp/headphone combinations I tried (bright/aggressive upper mids/lower trebles; sibilance in vocals; overly dry, 2D bass, etc). So starting about 4 yrs ago I got a NOS DAC (Audio GD NOS 19, since sold); then a multibit DAC (Audio GD DAC-19); then another NOS DAC (MHDT Labs Orchid). Now I use the multibit in my side-system (HP only) and the NOS in my main system (HP amps, preamp, class D amp, passive monitors, sub).
> 
> ...



can you explain your experience using a high end dac with powered monitors. Granted my monitors are far from TOTL, but I found that the way the monitors use DSP to achieve a flat FR killed the benefits of using a nice DAC. It seemed like there was additional AD/DA happening in the monitor and it didn’t so much matter what I put in front of it.


----------



## Pharmaboy (Jan 9, 2021)

312elements said:


> can you explain your experience using a high end dac with powered monitors. Granted my monitors are far from TOTL, but I found that the way the monitors use DSP to achieve a flat FR killed the benefits of using a nice DAC. It seemed like there was additional AD/DA happening in the monitor and it didn’t so much matter what I put in front of it.



I used 3 or 4 pairs of powered monitors in my system over the years. None used DSP; none had ADA conversion capability. So nothing beyond the inherent quality of embedded amps/crossover was stopping these powered monitors from conveying relative  DAC quality. And frankly that's how I wanted it. I never quite could believe that ADA conversion in a monitor was in my best sonic interests...

I was still using a nice sounding but hardly SOTA powered monitor pair (Swan M200 MKIII's) when I got my first non-d/s DAC, the Audio GD NOS 19. And it was easy to hear that this DAC sounded rather different from the pretty nice-sounding d/s DAC it replaced (Peachtree Audio DAC iTx). It was a worthwhile improvement IMO, and I never went back to d/s digital.

A couple years ago I ditched powered monitors altogether, following one final attempt to get a pair that represented a real sonic upgrade. I was looking for something with real dynamics and punch in the lower mids/upper bass, and none of the powered designs I'd heard really had that. They also didn't really cut in the audiophile sense of sounding much like real music, being able to really scale it up w/o losing composure. My choices were to buy one or more pairs of really expensive, high-end powered studio monitors--or go passive. I chose to go passive.

I picked up a gently used pair of ATCs smallest passive studio monitors, the SCM12 Pro's, and paired them with a nice-sounding class D amp (Wyred4Sound ST-500). Instant audio amazement: this is the most accurate, musical, and powerful 2-way I've ever heard. Also instant audio transparency: the ATCs let all the music through, good, bad & indifferent.


----------



## 312elements

Sounds like we’re on a similar path. I’ve been tube rolling the wa22 preamp and should take delivery of a class D purifi Eigentakt Eval 1 next week to power my speakers. The thought being that the amp will get out if the way, I can tune it to taste with the preamp and pair it with a Musical DAC hence my search. Currently using RME ADI-2 but feeling like it’s currently the bottleneck in getting where I want to go.


----------



## ]eep (Jan 9, 2021)

shafat777 said:


> Ohhh okay. Sorry for my subjective and negative terminology.
> 
> Also, sorry for stating my personal opinion and impression that I experienced myself.


I didn't mean to criticize you, just make you realise how what you said comes across. Or can. It's very easy to pick up on the wrong words. Someone can pick up on what you said and get the wrong idea.

I think you chose well (dac's) , I was in doubt which one I would choose (bc of mqa) but i decided to act to what I know is right.. I'm funny that way I suppose, I like to act what I preach. Don't make to much of it, we're talking about details here, not the grand plan of things.

Btw, I bought the SMSL DP5 io of the  M400 so I can play BT, MQA and all the extras over the Ares II. Still finding out how it works. Lots of options. And an ESS9038pro thrown in as a dac. It's not night and day difference. At first I was a bit bummed that the Ares has no i²S input, but I just figured out I can use USB to connect and get full native DSD. So many options. Atm I'm playing dsd to usb-in on the server that is relaying it DoP to the Ares. Still sounds pretty good but its a bit stupid way of connecting things.

On active monitors... Steve Guttenberg made a video on that recently. Basically you're stuck with one amplifier that you didn't pick or can upgrade. I agree on that. While active filtering sounds appealing it's better to pick good drivers and make as simple a crossover as possible with the best components you can afford. This way the speakers are very scalable. Upgrades in gear will translate into a better performance. It's a good idea though to combine with active subwoofers.


----------



## alvin1118

Pharmaboy said:


> I picked up a gently used pair of ATCs smallest passive studio monitors, the SCM12 Pro's, and paired them with a nice-sounding class D amp (Wyred4Sound ST-500). Instant audio amazement: this is the most accurate, musical, and powerful 2-way I've ever heard. Also instant audio transparency: the ATCs let all the music through, good, bad & indifferent.



Brilliant choice, ATC loudspeakers are astonishing 
I am using a pair of ATC SCM50PSL


----------



## Pharmaboy

312elements said:


> Sounds like we’re on a similar path. I’ve been tube rolling the wa22 preamp and should take delivery of a class D purifi Eigentakt Eval 1 next week to power my speakers. The thought being that the amp will get out if the way, I can tune it to taste with the preamp and pair it with a Musical DAC hence my search. Currently using RME ADI-2 but feeling like it’s currently the bottleneck in getting where I want to go.



The WA22 is a real beast. I had one for ~6 months. It was too large & heavy for my desktop (lesson learned). 

If you get the right NOS tubes in that amp it'll go the next level.


----------



## Pharmaboy

alvin1118 said:


> Brilliant choice, ATC loudspeakers are astonishing
> I am using a pair of ATC SCM50PSL



Omigod, the SCM50PSL is one I dream about. I've heard the sound is stunning. IMO mid-sized ATCs like the SCM50PSL and Harbeths (30.2 & 40.2) are dream speakers for people who care about music...also not as huge as many floorstanders.

My days of big/heavy speakers in the living room are long over. Very soon I'll try to sell the best speakers I ever had in my home, the Vandersteen 4s. Very large & heavy, also superb sound.

Now it's all desktop. My sort-of-realistic fantasy is to get the SCM19s on the desktop. They're borderline too large and not cheap, but that's how fantasies are.


----------



## sajunky

312elements said:


> Sounds like we’re on a similar path. I’ve been tube rolling the wa22 preamp and should take delivery of a class D purifi Eigentakt Eval 1 next week to power my speakers. The thought being that the amp will get out if the way, I can tune it to taste with the preamp and pair it with a Musical DAC hence my search. Currently using RME ADI-2 but feeling like it’s currently the bottleneck in getting where I want to go.


I had been experimenting with digital amps starting from Fx-Audio Fx502S Pro and ending with ICE Power 125ASX2 module. Both give impressive an initial whoow effect, but long-time listening it brings a fatigue. It was a time where I had to replace all my gear, and I didn't know whether it was something wrong with me or the amp or second-hand speakers or Topping D30 as a source. Nobsound 8xTDA1387 has instantly replaced Topping, but not removing a problem completely. I was going to enter Purify route, fortunately I had a chance to test non-expensive Denon PMA-520AE, it solved problem completely.

When Audio GD R2R-11 arrived I retested D30 and these digital amps, all three of them (separately) kill satisfaction after 20 minutes of use. R2R-11 receive to much brightness in the upper frequency range, it starts from midrange progressively. But it seems timbre and texture is generally flawed, also in the low range, similar to Delta Sigma DACs. I plan to use 125ASX2 for a subwoofer with electronic crossover, it is probably the best usage of digital amps.

It is a warning!


----------



## gimmeheadroom

312elements said:


> Sounds like we’re on a similar path. I’ve been tube rolling the wa22 preamp and should take delivery of a class D purifi Eigentakt Eval 1 next week to power my speakers. The thought being that the amp will get out if the way, I can tune it to taste with the preamp and pair it with a Musical DAC hence my search. Currently using RME ADI-2 but feeling like it’s currently the bottleneck in getting where I want to go.


I'm thinking something is wrong with your setup. The RME DAC is one of the most musical mainstream DACs available. It requires some setup to work well though.

You are running the RME at 100% into your WA22 and using the volume control on the Woo, right?

Have you listened directly out of the RME to compare?


----------



## 312elements

gimmeheadroom said:


> I'm thinking something is wrong with your setup. The RME DAC is one of the most musical mainstream DACs available. It requires some setup to work well though.
> 
> You are running the RME at 100% into your WA22 and using the volume control on the Woo, right?
> 
> Have you listened directly out of the RME to compare?



I’m not suggesting that the RME sounds bad. I think it’s of the best D/S DACs available, but I want to hear for myself if there’s magic in the older R-2R tech. In terms of what I’m hoping to achieve it’s mostly in depth.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

312elements said:


> I’m not suggesting that the RME sounds bad. I think it’s of the best D/S DACs available, but I want to hear for myself if there’s magic in the older R-2R tech. In terms of what I’m hoping to achieve it’s mostly in depth.


Oh. Well, R2R is not necessarily older. I think the RME hits the sweet spot for being resolving yet musical. I have said many times I think it's the best thousand dollars anybody will ever spend on audio gear. There are tons and tons of DACs available and the good R2R DACs start around 1500 USD I think. It could be an expensive journey.


----------



## shafat777

After using the Ares 2 for a couple of days, i ve decided to sell my D90. Sad to see that thing go but the music coming out of the Ares 2 is so natural with spacious sound stage and smooth mids and vocals. However, I have always played with the idea of having a secondary dac as a backup and also to connect a third amp ( gsx-mini and elise connected to Ares 2, also have a LP). What kinda dac should i look into?


----------



## gimmeheadroom

shafat777 said:


> After using the Ares 2 for a couple of days, i ve decided to sell my D90. Sad to see that thing go but the music coming out of the Ares 2 is so natural with spacious sound stage and smooth mids and vocals. However, I have always played with the idea of having a secondary dac as a backup and also to connect a third amp ( gsx-mini and elise connected to Ares 2, also have a LP). What kinda dac should i look into?


RME is difficult to beat. Hugely flexible, parametric EQ, nice metering, and handles very high rate PCM and DSD. One of the most musical chipdacs I have heard.
It has balanced and SE output.


----------



## 312elements

shafat777 said:


> After using the Ares 2 for a couple of days, i ve decided to sell my D90. Sad to see that thing go but the music coming out of the Ares 2 is so natural with spacious sound stage and smooth mids and vocals. However, I have always played with the idea of having a secondary dac as a backup and also to connect a third amp ( gsx-mini and elise connected to Ares 2, also have a LP). What kinda dac should i look into?



if you like the topping, I’d find the cheapest modern one that has the features you’re looking for. I think for the most part and with very little exception, all of the D/S dacs that measure well sound similar.


----------



## shafat777

312elements said:


> if you like the topping, I’d find the cheapest modern one that has the features you’re looking for. I think for the most part and with very little exception, all of the D/S dacs that measure well sound similar.


I am selling the topping because i dont like the sound of it compared to my Ares 2. I am not looking to buy the same. I am leaning more towards a multibit Schiit or equivalent.


----------



## 312elements

shafat777 said:


> I am selling the topping because i dont like the sound of it compared to my Ares 2. I am not looking to buy the same. I am leaning more towards a multibit Schiit or equivalent.


Do you have a portable dac/amp yet? Something like a Chord Mojo could give you a different sounding DAC and also provide you with a mobile solution at the same time.


----------



## shafat777

312elements said:


> Do you have a portable dac/amp yet? Something like a Chord Mojo could give you a different sounding DAC and also provide you with a mobile solution at the same time.


If i go portable, then i want a All in one solution like a sony walkman. I work at a hospital and for ridiculous hours. Most of the time, I use my phone to listen to music for the rare 5 min of break that i get LOL. Dont own a laptop or anything portable other than my phone. So portable amps and dacs were never my thing. Owned a FIIO portable amp at one time but that was 5 years ago. So desktop setup after a long day of work is my preferred method of enjoying music.


----------



## Lolito

shafat777 said:


> After using the Ares 2 for a couple of days, i ve decided to sell my D90. Sad to see that thing go but the music coming out of the Ares 2 is so natural with spacious sound stage and smooth mids and vocals. However, I have always played with the idea of having a secondary dac as a backup and also to connect a third amp ( gsx-mini and elise connected to Ares 2, also have a LP). What kinda dac should i look into?



RME if you want/need all those features, topping e30 if you just want a cheap dac that sounds as good as the more expensive akm dacs, but no xlr, no features, same sound really than d90 rca or rme. Just get a linear psu for it though. khadas tone board not a bad dac either, in the cheapest realm. if money no object, rme probably the best choice... r2r, nothing beats ares 2 at the moment, but a mimby is a cheaper one... never heard that one though. BTR5 also great little dac, works also as a bluetooth receiver, has a battery, i have one, its very well built, has a little display, great little thing for 100$.


----------



## Lolito

gimmeheadroom said:


> RME is difficult to beat. Hugely flexible, parametric EQ, nice metering, and handles very high rate PCM and DSD. One of the most musical chipdacs I have heard.
> It has balanced and SE output.



RME 1000€, topping e30 110€, sound the exact same in a blind test. rme with many more features though, but they sound the same when no eq used, because they are the same akm well measuring dac. Just get a linear psu for the topping.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

Lolito said:


> RME 1000€, topping e30 110€, sound the exact same in a blind test. rme with many more features though, but they sound the same when no eq used, because they are the same akm well measuring dac. Just get a linear psu for the topping.


The DAC chip doesn't have nearly as much influence as the whole implementation. If the Topping sounded nearly as good as the RME then nobody would buy the RME. I think it is incorrect (delusional) to quote audio scientology or make outlandish claims based on what chip some DAC uses. The reality is just not like that at all.


----------



## Baten

gimmeheadroom said:


> The DAC chip doesn't have nearly as much influence as the whole implementation. If the Topping sounded nearly as good as the RME then nobody would buy the RME.


People tend to buy the RME for the crap-ton of features, first and firemost


----------



## gimmeheadroom

Baten said:


> People tend to buy the RME for the crap-ton of features, first and firemost


I didn't and I don't know where you came up with that idea.


----------



## Baten

gimmeheadroom said:


> I didn't and I don't know where you came up with that idea.


I guess there's all kinds of people in this world, then 

How I came up with that idea, I don't know did you check the size of the manual? It can do a LOT of things.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

Baten said:


> I guess there's all kinds of people in this world, then
> 
> How I came up with that idea, I don't know did you check the size of the manual? It can do a LOT of things.


The DAC gets great reviews for sound quality, as well it should. The sound is first and foremost.

The other features are icing on the cake and not only will most people not see the manual until after they buy it, but most people will only use a (small) subset of the features. If you check the RME threads you can see how much hair-pulling there is over the setup.


----------



## mikel

I also have the RME ADI-2. I agree... sound is amazing...the many features are really coming from the software side.
On my end... I use direct DSD basically bypassing all software processing.... the result... amazing clean sound.
The RME ADI 2 is a fully transparent DAC. I would be very surprised if any DAD below 5000 USD offers a clearly superior D/A converstion. The only DAC i have heard that is more expensive was the Chord DAVE..... and in my ears it was comparable with the RME ADI-2 being driven by HQPlayer.
My chain is 
Roon/Tidal -> HQPlayer Desktop upsampling to DSD 128 -> RME ADI-2 in Direct DSD Mode -> Violectric V281 -> Focal Utopia


----------



## sajunky (Jan 11, 2021)

And.... it is how discussion about RME, Topping, Chord ends....

Hopefully.


----------



## Lolito

Baten said:


> People tend to buy the RME for the crap-ton of features, first and firemost


Exactly. and german quality and warranty. And price is great for the features and the display, and i bet the knobs are reliable, not like topping.

But about the dac performance and sound, same as akm decent dac out there... no miracles really.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

Lolito said:


> Exactly. and german quality and warranty. And price is great for the features and the display, and i bet the knobs are reliable, not like topping.
> 
> But about the dac performance and sound, same as akm decent dac out there... no miracles really.


Who  says the Topping sounds like the RME?


----------



## Baten

gimmeheadroom said:


> Who  says the Topping sounds like the RME?


Let's just quit this whole sound science topic in this thread. It's the *Ares II* thread, whether RME and cheaper AKM DAC will sound similar/same is hardly relevant here and will only invite back and forth bickering ....


----------



## gimmeheadroom

Baten said:


> Let's just quit this whole sound science topic in this thread. It's the *Ares II* thread, whether RME and cheaper AKM DAC will sound similar/same is hardly relevant here and will only invite back and forth bickering ....


Why are you talking to me? Why don't you address your concerns to the individuals who moved the discussion in that direction?


----------



## Lolito

i mix all threats, sorry mates!!! LONG LIFE TO THE ARES 2!!!! the most analog dac out there, with months waiting list to buy one!!!!
I want an ares 2, but I will buy one when the hype is over!!! or when ares 3 is out.

there is a nice review out there by @poetryonplastic or something like that is the name of the guy, very nice review, i trust that guy. Digital needs to move on really, ARES 2 is showing the light. I still would like a cheaper ares, because the other cheap non delta sigma dacs really not that nice. Bifrost not worth it anymore at that price if ares 2 is there. 

Cheap RCA denafrips, with external PSU, or smaller psu with smaller linear transformer... maybe with no dsd, to save costs, with no xlr, single ended design... maybe.


----------



## Dobrescu George

I also made a full in-depth written review about the Ares II  

since a lot of people know about it, I did my best to point out personal observations, and compared it with much more expensive DACs, to see how it stands in the market  

https://www.audiophile-heaven.com/2021/01/r2r-alive-denafrips-ares-ii-balanced-r2r-dac.html


----------



## 312elements

Dobrescu George said:


> I also made a full in-depth written review about the Ares II
> 
> since a lot of people know about it, I did my best to point out personal observations, and compared it with much more expensive DACs, to see how it stands in the market
> 
> https://www.audiophile-heaven.com/2021/01/r2r-alive-denafrips-ares-ii-balanced-r2r-dac.html



Cool article, thanks for sharing. How would you describe the differences in soundstage, separation, and imaging vs something like the Brooklyn. My takeaway from reading your article was that the differences more focused on color and dynamics.


----------



## Dobrescu George

312elements said:


> Cool article, thanks for sharing. How would you describe the differences in soundstage, separation, and imaging vs something like the Brooklyn. My takeaway from reading your article was that the differences more focused on color and dynamics.



The soundstage is wider on DAC+, but deeper and more balanced on Ares II. Separation is similar, imaging is slightly better on Ares II, thanks to its deeper soundstage


----------



## Uncle00Jesse

Anyone who has bought one from Singapore that lives in the states, did you have any customs charges or shipping issues to speak of?


----------



## adamos (Jan 16, 2021)

Uncle00Jesse said:


> Anyone who has bought one from Singapore that lives in the states, did you have any customs charges or shipping issues to speak of?



My order was just over a year ago, but it was a smooth process with no extra charges or shipping issues and it arrived fairly quickly. Also just as a side note Vinshine is in Singapore but it shipped from China where they are made.


----------



## Lolito

Dobrescu George said:


> I also made a full in-depth written review about the Ares II
> 
> since a lot of people know about it, I did my best to point out personal observations, and compared it with much more expensive DACs, to see how it stands in the market
> 
> https://www.audiophile-heaven.com/2021/01/r2r-alive-denafrips-ares-ii-balanced-r2r-dac.html



Very good review, both in youtube and written. You try lot of dacs, would you agree this is the most "musical" at its price? whatever musical means. I would like a dac that can be used for hours and hours without fatigue, like good old vinyls, but with digital. I think this is the way, and then a jotenheim 2 as headphone amp/pre amp...


----------



## shafat777

Anybody know if you can select which output (rca or xlr) to use in this amp. Also, is there sound degradation when both outputs are used simultaneously?


----------



## adamos (Jan 16, 2021)

shafat777 said:


> Anybody know if you can select which output (rca or xlr) to use in this amp. Also, is there sound degradation when both outputs are used simultaneously?



There isn’t a selection option that I’m aware of, and a while back on another forum @alvin1118 mentioned that there is a degradation in sound quality if you use both at the same time. I haven’t tried it myself.

_“Another important note, please connect either RCA or XLR output, not both simultaneously. The RCA and XLR output is shared, connecting them simultaneously will degrade the sound quality. Regardless of whether the downstream equipment is on/off, the output signal will still be transmitted to the downstream equipment's input stage.”_


----------



## shafat777

adamos said:


> There isn’t a selection option that I’m aware of, and a while back on another forum @alvin1118 mentioned that there is a degradation in sound quality if you use both at the same time. I haven’t tried it myself.
> 
> _“Another important note, please connect either RCA or XLR output, not both simultaneously. The RCA and XLR output is shared, connecting them simultaneously will degrade the sound quality. Regardless of whether the downstream equipment is on/off, the output signal will still be transmitted to the downstream equipment's input stage.”_


Would love to know this for sure. I have my Elise and gsx-mini hooked up to my Ares 2. Does this also happen in the bifrost 2 ?


----------



## shafat777

I just tried listening with my Empyreans using my gsx-mini (XLR) with the rca output of the ares 2 on and of and i honestly couldnt tell if there's any difference is sound quality.


----------



## Dobrescu George

Lolito said:


> gree this is the most "musical" at its price? whatever musical means. I would like a dac that can be used for hours and hours without fatigue, like good old vinyls, but with digital. I think this is the way, and then a jotenheim 2 as headphone amp/pre am



Yes, at this price point, I personally haven't heard anything else that was more musical / easier to listen to without losing detail


----------



## adamos (Jan 17, 2021)

shafat777 said:


> Would love to know this for sure. I have my Elise and gsx-mini hooked up to my Ares 2. Does this also happen in the bifrost 2 ?



I also have a Bifrost 2 and I’m not able to notice any degradation in sound quality when it is connected to two headphone amps at the same time (balanced and single ended). I’ve also read in other threads here that there isn’t any noticeable degradation with the Bifrost 2, but I don’t know for sure.

My Ares II is connected to just one integrated stereo amplifier and I’ve never tried connecting both balanced and single ended at the same time, mainly because I haven’t had a specific need but also because of Alvin’s warning. Next time he drops in here maybe he can provide some additional input.


----------



## sajunky

Dobrescu George said:


> Yes, at this price point, I personally haven't heard anything else that was more musical / easier to listen to without losing detail


Sure, especially when paired with this: https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/audio-gd-master-19.24040/reviews


----------



## Lolito

sajunky said:


> Sure, especially when paired with this: https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/audio-gd-master-19.24040/reviews


That's a lot of money for such an ugly remote, but of course, might work for others with space, looks great and a ton of analog inputs. I bet it sounds great though. But jot2 is my current candidate, much more value than this one. And I need a compact desktop setup for under the desk actually, not even on the desk. Maybe denafrips should junt into the preamp/amp world, make an under 1000$ candidate to fight against all these, or a full stack of 1500$.


----------



## shafat777

adamos said:


> I also have a Bifrost 2 and I’m not able to notice any degradation in sound quality when it is connected to two headphone amps at the same time (balanced and single ended). I’ve also read in other threads here that there isn’t any noticeable degradation with the Bifrost 2, but I don’t know for sure.
> 
> My Ares II is connected to just one integrated stereo amplifier and I’ve never tried connecting both balanced and single ended at the same time, mainly because I haven’t had a specific need but also because of Alvin’s warning. Next time he drops in here maybe he can provide some additional input.


That makes me wanna get a bifrost 2 and compare the sound quality with my ares 2. Also, as far as I can tell, I don't hear any difference in sound quality with 2 amps against one connected to my Ares 2


----------



## VintageAudio

shafat777 said:


> That makes me wanna get a bifrost 2 and compare the sound quality with my ares 2. Also, as far as I can tell, I don't hear any difference in sound quality with 2 amps against one connected to my Ares 2


Please do!  I've been curious about this too.

All I've seen from some other forums regarding these two is speculation based off of the V1 versions of Bitfrost and Ares - which is not credible in my opinion.  On YouTube, mid-fi guy says that the bit frost is somewhere in between the Topping D90 and Ares II.  More detail but still some of the that warmth and soundstage of Ares II.


----------



## sajunky

VintageAudio said:


> Please do!  I've been curious about this too.
> 
> All I've seen from some other forums regarding these two is speculation based off of the V1 versions of Bitfrost and Ares - which is not credible in my opinion.  On YouTube, mid-fi guy says that the bit frost is somewhere in between the Topping D90 and Ares II.  More detail but still some of the that warmth and soundstage of Ares II.


Yeah, but comparing Ares to D90 doesn't make sense. Neither from BOM cost nor SQ. A person who is doing such comparison listen to a music of a Calvin Harris or similar tech stuff.


----------



## gto88

Just updated USB driver 5.0.
Denafrip is the first one that keep USB driver up to date for their product.


----------



## Baten

gto88 said:


> Just updated USB driver 5.0.
> Denafrip is the first one that keep USB driver up to date for their product.


Topping is also on v5.0 haha.


----------



## sajunky (Jan 17, 2021)

Lolito said:


> That's a lot of money for such an ugly remote, but of course, might work for others with space, looks great and a ton of analog inputs. I bet it sounds great though. But jot2 is my current candidate, much more value than this one. And I need a compact desktop setup for under the desk actually, not even on the desk. Maybe denafrips should junt into the preamp/amp world, make an under 1000$ candidate to fight against all these, or a full stack of 1500$.


Denafrips can't do it straight away. The amp design requires a different kind of expertise and years of experience. They know it, it is why they decided to avoid problems by using a passive I/V conversion and output.

Bitfrost 2 is priced very close to Ares, but is not NOS. And a ladder is not exactly R2R type. The best combo DAC/AMP with a price below Ares is Audio GD R2R-11 $350. It is NOS only so if you like some artificial details and more smoothness you need to upsample RedBook material on the PC (Foobar + SoX will do). However for my kind of music it is not needed. Headphone amplifier can't compare with Master 19, but drives well my HD600. If you are looking for a cheaper amp for your Ares, there is A-2, slightly above $300. It is very powerful amp, stronger than the one in R-28 combo. Perhaps @Dobrescu George should review this amp, I didn't see any.

If you want to spend more, slightly above $1000 mark, R28 (again) is the best you can get for money. Get one with a clock upgrade (2021 model with reworked interfaces). These amps are pure class A, made of discrete components (no opamps), All share the same Audio GD house of sound: neutral, slightly on a warm side. This hint of warmth dissapear only in Master series. You know that these things depend less on electronic components, but on a quality of power supply - we talk about high-end after all.


----------



## VintageAudio

sajunky said:


> Yeah, but comparing Ares to D90 doesn't make sense. Neither from BOM cost nor SQ. A person who is doing such comparison listen to a music of a Calvin Harris or similar tech stuff.



Actually, for a lot of people I think it makes sense.  Those 3 DACS are all in a similar price range (~700ish USD) and if that was my budget, I'd want to know what DACS are in that range and what the differences are between them if any and use that info to decide which might be the best fit for me.

Also - nothing wrong with listening to Calvin Harris - he makes good music. lol.


----------



## sajunky

VintageAudio said:


> Also - nothing wrong with listening to Calvin Harris - he makes good music. lol.


I knew it could be a reason for comparison, it is why I mentioned it.


----------



## alvin1118

Hello guys,

The latest licensed Thesycon Driver (*For Windows PC*) v5.0.0 is available to download here: link. 
https://www.denafrips.com/support







The history file with changes can be downloaded at: http://www.thesycon.de/usbaudio/TUSBAudio_history.txt


----------



## Lolito (Jan 20, 2021)

sajunky said:


> Denafrips can't do it straight away. The amp design requires a different kind of expertise and years of experience. They know it, it is why they decided to avoid problems by using a passive I/V conversion and output.
> 
> Bitfrost 2 is priced very close to Ares, but is not NOS. And a ladder is not exactly R2R type. The best combo DAC/AMP with a price below Ares is Audio GD R2R-11 $350. It is NOS only so if you like some artificial details and more smoothness you need to upsample RedBook material on the PC (Foobar + SoX will do). However for my kind of music it is not needed. Headphone amplifier can't compare with Master 19, but drives well my HD600. If you are looking for a cheaper amp for your Ares, there is A-2, slightly above $300. It is very powerful amp, stronger than the one in R-28 combo. Perhaps @Dobrescu George should review this amp, I didn't see any.
> 
> If you want to spend more, slightly above $1000 mark, R28 (again) is the best you can get for money. Get one with a clock upgrade (2021 model with reworked interfaces). These amps are pure class A, made of discrete components (no opamps), All share the same Audio GD house of sound: neutral, slightly on a warm side. This hint of warmth dissapear only in Master series. You know that these things depend less on electronic components, but on a quality of power supply - we talk about high-end after all.



I understand. The problem in audio is that there such a huge amount of pure BS, that I can not tell if what you say it's exactly like that, or it's a big piece of crap and all you say is completely wrong... Since I can not test any of these things anywhere anymore, gotta trust online opinions, and boy, never found anything more contradictory that opinions of audio stuff, on the internet. In audioscience review, just to give an example, anything audio gd is worse than the devil, worse than bad, then other people say the other way around, and I can't test anything anyways... headphones at least can be returned most times, not audio gd stuff afaik.

About ares 2, all opinions say it's awesome. Comes with a bit of hype, of course, but still, seems worth it. I just wonder about reliability, warranty, if they break right after warranty is over, if not. If all units produced sound alike, if not. If there are QC problems, if not...


----------



## sajunky (Jan 20, 2021)

Lolito said:


> About ares 2, all opinions say it's awesome. Comes with a bit of hype, of course, but still, seems worth it. I just wonder about reliability, warranty, if they break right after warranty is over, if not. If all units produced sound alike, if not. If there are QC problems, if not...


I wouldn't worry about reliability in this case. The only things it would stop me from purchasing Ares is connectivity. Missing I2S port is something limiting from jumping to the next level of SQ. In the best case scenario you are lucky, you don't need to do anything, but it is not always a case. It is actually more frequent than a malfunction and warranty repairs.


----------



## daytrader (Jan 20, 2021)

Lolito said:


> I understand. The problem in audio is that there such a huge amount of pure BS,...
> 
> About ares 2, all opinions say it's awesome. Comes with a bit of hype, of course, but still, seems worth it. I just wonder about reliability, warranty, if they break right after warranty is over, if not. If all units produced sound alike, if not. If there are QC problems, if not...


Without dealer networks it certainly is harder but you save 40% off the retail prices, as it is here in the US.  So take that for what it’s worth in your consideration of moving forward on a product from Vinshine Audio.  But they have started to provide warranty service for products in and out of warranty here in the States, on the East and West coasts. So I’m guessing they will expand this in markets to which they sell products eventually. As for now, any knowledgable service center of audio gear would surely be able to assist in repairs, especially for an older technology as an R2R dac.  So don’t sweat it! ... 😏


----------



## sajunky

daytrader said:


> As for now, any knowledgable service center of audio gear would surely be able to assist in repairs, especially for an older technology as an R2R dac.  So don’t sweat it! ... 😏


R2R DAC is not actually an older technology. And I don't think many centres would try to repair R-7HE for example (with regenerative power supply). Those who would, they don't realise how advanced technology is there.


----------



## PopZeus (Jan 21, 2021)

Lolito said:


> I understand. The problem in audio is that there such a huge amount of pure BS, that I can not tell if what you say it's exactly like that, or it's a big piece of crap and all you say is completely wrong... Since I can not test any of these things anywhere anymore, gotta trust online opinions, and boy, never found anything more contradictory that opinions of audio stuff, on the internet. In audioscience review, just to give an example, anything audio gd is worse than the devil, worse than bad, then other people say the other way around, and I can't test anything anyways... headphones at least can be returned most times, not audio gd stuff afaik.
> 
> About ares 2, all opinions say it's awesome. Comes with a bit of hype, of course, but still, seems worth it. I just wonder about reliability, warranty, if they break right after warranty is over, if not. If all units produced sound alike, if not. If there are QC problems, if not...



Denafrips has US service centers now, so you don't have to do any DIY work with a Vinshine staff member over email, or ship your unit back to Singapore. The build quality on my Ares II feels top notch. Personally, I ain't worried.

Unfortunately, the only way to experience this journey these days is try out different types of cheaper gear that look interesting to you and see if you love it or not. Yeah, you will be spending money on gear that you won't end up keeping but consider it an education in your own subjective taste. Then you will start to know which online opinions match your own. To keep costs down, try buying used. That way if you want to sell it, you can get most of your money back, as opposed to buying new where you take a bigger hit in depreciation.


----------



## Lman

Based upon this thread I purchased the Ares and it is supposed to be here next week. I'm anxious to hear how it compares to my Bifrost 2.


----------



## shafat777

Lman said:


> Based upon this thread I purchased the Ares and it is supposed to be here next week. I'm anxious to hear how it compares to my Bifrost 2.


Congrats man. I am on the same/opposite boat. I am waiting on my Bifrost 2 from Schiit. I had to resort to buying another dac because the Ares 2 cant handle both rca + xlr output simultaneous without sound degradation. Either Rca or XLR sounds really good. Rich, Full, and Dynamic. So I ll use my Ares 2 with my Elise. Since the bifrost 2 has no such issues, it will handle my gsx-mini via XLR and LP via RC. Its supposed to be delivered on Wednesday.


----------



## Lolito

shafat777 said:


> Congrats man. I am on the same/opposite boat. I am waiting on my Bifrost 2 from Schiit. I had to resort to buying another dac because the Ares 2 cant handle both rca + xlr output simultaneous without sound degradation. Either Rca or XLR sounds really good. Rich, Full, and Dynamic. So I ll use my Ares 2 with my Elise. Since the bifrost 2 has no such issues, it will handle my gsx-mini via XLR and LP via RC. Its supposed to be delivered on Wednesday.



Why not better getting a switch? they say ares 2 is well beyond bifrost 2 in terms of SQ.


----------



## Lman (Jan 24, 2021)

What "they say" may not be what you say. SQ is subjective and impacted by the room, the other components in the system and the source material.

Also, we hear things differently. My hearing isn't what is was 40 years ago.


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## Lolito

daytrader said:


> Without dealer networks it certainly is harder but you save 40% off the retail prices, as it is here in the US.  So take that for what it’s worth in your consideration of moving forward on a product from Vinshine Audio.  But they have started to provide warranty service for products in and out of warranty here in the States, on the East and West coasts. So I’m guessing they will expand this in markets to which they sell products eventually. As for now, any knowledgable service center of audio gear would surely be able to assist in repairs, especially for an older technology as an R2R dac.  So don’t sweat it! ... 😏



You clearly have no clue what you are talking about. I would certainly not sweat anything if a r2r ares 2 fais, but the knowledgable service center don't exist in this planet. A good solder guy earns 500$ the hour, by the way. A good one, and still, they need to be familiar with the stuff. You can find a proper macbook service repair center, but not ares 2 solder experts.


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## Lolito

Lman said:


> What "they say" may not be what you say. SQ is subjective and impacted by the room, the other components in the system and the source material.



Or maybe what they say, after digest it, it is what I say, specially if I have read minimum minimum 20 different people tried this device. If not 30. Flavour of the month, don't forget!! Alwas a lot fo information in the hifi world for all those flavours of the month. Gotta wait for the hype to be gone to know the truth.


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## sajunky

Lman said:


> What "they say" may not be what you say.


Actually it is a common opinion about Ares vs. Bitfrost 2. @Lolito is on spot, as there are number of posts reporting the same. It is despite of a more sales of Bitfrost and a stronger marketing placebo effect.


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## daytrader (Jan 25, 2021)

Lolito said:


> You clearly have no clue what you are talking about. I would certainly not sweat anything if a r2r ares 2 fais, but the knowledgable service center don't exist in this planet. A good solder guy earns 500$ the hour, by the way. A good one, and still, they need to be familiar with the stuff. You can find a proper macbook service repair center, but not ares 2 solder experts.


Ok, try that again but this time in comprehensible English?  Then again, with the tone of your response, don’t bother!


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## ]eep

Lman said:


> What "they say" may not be what you say. SQ is subjective and impacted by the room, the other components in the system and the source material.
> 
> Also, we hear things differently. My hearing isn't what is was 40 years ago.


relativism is another way of avoiding truth... 

I understand what you are trying to say. I do. But it pushes all my wrong buttons... "you have your truth, I have mine" is just a copout for acknowledging someone is making a valid point. And a self-defeating argument. 

Quality is quite objective. Sound quality is objective, but complex. Weighing the different aspects of sound quality is subjective and somewhat prone to taste. 

The difference between the technical specifications and parts used, or better said the technical compromise taken by the designer, between the Bifrost and the Ares will stay the same no matter the acoustics, listener, source material or auxiliaries. 
The Ares not being able to output to XLR and RCA simultaneous is because of the choice to keep the output stage passive in order to maintain the best soundquality possible. In other words (from the viewpoint of information technology) not to lose information. 
If you take in to account that every component (every R, C, D, I or even connection/transition) impedes the integrity of information to some degree, less is more. Less components, less loss. Better quality components, better conservation of information. If you use an active stage you insert - a lot- of components and however good, you will lose information coherence. Since only very few users will ever use both RCA and XLR at the same time I think this is a good choice. Even Jason Stoddard of Shiit on the question of why he included an inferior RCA on his balanced design HP-amp answered: "to put it bluntly; because I want to sell more than 5 units". Now the Ares gives you the choice. Only this time with - better- quality. 

What might impede the ability of the listener to _ appreciate_ the difference is the (lack of) resolving power of the system, reverb of the room, age/hearing impairment of the listener etc. Although I also have 40y worth of experience with loud headphones and noise exposure I am perfectly capable of noticing differences in quality between dacs. Because listening involves training. 
Everyone (normally, not impaired) can hear, but not everyone is able or willing to listen. And that is where most subjectivity lies; human psyche. Not in a component.


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## ]eep

daytrader said:


> Ok, try that again but this time in comprehendible English?  Then again, with the tone of your response, don’t bother!


something about a pot and a kettle... comprehendible? (also you quoted the wrong post which might be offensive but clear, and mixed with the other one which was hard to understand but not directed at anyone). 

First: I have a lot of exerience over 15y with a lot of different Chinese audio components. So far only 1 had a bad design and broke (after i started tinkering with it). My cd player (10y) has a bad optical unit but that is to be expected and no worse than some (uk brand) cd player i had. So i had no worries whatsoever about Denafrips. 

Second: although R2R was invented in the 50-ies, the tech inside the Denafrips Ares is by no means old. The control of the resistors and the inputs is very new and hightech. Not something i would like to repair. 

Service centers are mostly not very versatile. They're good at what they do on a daily basis. But give them something old or out of the ordinary and they're stumped. Most of the time. I started my chifi journey when i brought my Audio Note tubeamp in. The high end audio shop i brought it to sent it to their service centre. After a month of inquiries i heard it was the power transformer. After months i heard they were waiting for a reply from the distributor (who was retired as i knew) so i had to call them up and had to tell them where to get it. The 'technician' said it was highly irregular that a customer had to tell him how to do his job (how dare you!). I took half a year to get an Audio Note repaired. By the time i payed the €400 repair and received it back the €230 Chinese 'stand-in' had been playing for months. With better sound mind you.


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## Lman

]eep said:


> relativism is another way of avoiding truth...
> 
> I understand what you are trying to say. I do. But it pushes all my wrong buttons... "you have your truth, I have mine" is just a copout for acknowledging someone is making a valid point. And a self-defeating argument.
> 
> ...



 I don't want to get into a discussion of truth, absolute or otherwise. My point is simply that the dac is part of a system that produces sound and the sound quality that we are attributing to the dac is significantly influenced by the other components in the system, what we used to refer to as synergy - which I think you are referring to when you mention the "resolving power" of the system. Do better components produce better sound, yes,  but if the differences become so minute that it takes a trained ear, such as you have, to hear them, then most of us won't be able to tell the difference. I believe this is where subjectivity comes into play.


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## daytrader (Jan 24, 2021)

]eep said:


> something about a pot and a kettle... comprehendible? (also you quoted the wrong post which might be offensive but clear, and mixed with the other one which was hard to understand but not directed at anyone).
> 
> First: I have a lot of exerience over 15y with a lot of different Chinese audio components. So far only 1 had a bad design and broke (after i started tinkering with it). My cd player (10y) has a bad optical unit but that is to be expected and no worse than some (uk brand) cd player i had. So i had no worries whatsoever about Denafrips.
> 
> ...


Setting aside your hifi journey and repair experience.  The “I don’t have a clue what I’m talking about” is clearly offensive to me.  Interesting that you don’t see that.  But we have disagreed in the past, so no surprise.


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## Lolito

daytrader said:


> Ok, try that again but this time in comprehendible English?  Then again, with the tone of your response, don’t bother!



Making sense it's totally overrated.

Totally.


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## Lolito

daytrader said:


> Setting aside your hifi journey and repair experience.  The “I don’t have a clue what I’m talking about” is clearly offensive to me.  Interesting that you don’t see that.  But we have disagreed in the past, so no surprise.



You are right there my friend, my apologies. You probably have a clue. You surely have more clue than me maybe, who knows!! Truth being told though, when I saw your answer, I thought you had no fricking clue, so had to write it. Sorry for the honesty. But I am a bad beach. I will wip me right now strong and hard, and hopefully I have paid for my sins.

What was this thread about? and yes, the ares 2 awesome dac yeah... if any of the little components in it fails, not sure anyone other as the manufacturer can really fix anything, for a cost worthy price, more like replacing the whole board, and ship defective one for reparation, no?

A person that repairs say 5 of these per day, or say 10 per month, can do it very very fast, and knows what can fail and how to repair it. Any other place, if it's the first time they have this, have no schematics of the board... not gonna happen really.


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## daytrader (Jan 25, 2021)

Lolito said:


> You are right there my friend, my apologies. You probably have a clue. You surely have more clue than me maybe, who knows!! Truth being told though, when I saw your answer, I thought you had no fricking clue, so had to write it. Sorry for the honesty. But I am a bad beach. I will wip me right now strong and hard, and hopefully I have paid for my sins.
> 
> What was this thread about? and yes, the ares 2 awesome dac yeah... if any of the little components in it fails, not sure anyone other as the manufacturer can really fix anything, for a cost worthy price, more like replacing the whole board, and ship defective one for reparation, no?
> 
> A person that repairs say 5 of these per day, or say 10 per month, can do it very very fast, and knows what can fail and how to repair it. Any other place, if it's the first time they have this, have no schematics of the board... not gonna happen really.


It’s a weird time, covid confinement has us all a little short of patience and understanding. OK sweetheart.😘


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## ]eep (Jan 25, 2021)

daytrader said:


> Setting aside your hifi journey and repair experience.  The “I don’t have a clue what I’m talking about” is clearly offensive to me.  Interesting that you don’t see that.  But we have disagreed in the past, so no surprise.


you are right, that is not an agreeable thing to say. But not everybody is always equally well-spoken or feeling at ease atm. Try not to take it personally. When you are tired or anxious (as many are in a lockdown) it is not that clear cut or easy to write flawless English,  especially if its a foreign language to you. You might want to take that into consideration before you feel you must slap somebody on the wrist. And when you do... better not make mistakes or you will look rather silly. I notice this many times that (often) Americans are not very understanding, appreciative or patient when others are trying to express themselves in _your_ language. And I'm not even speaking about diffetence in culture. Where I'm from, we don't beat around the bush and come straight to the point.

We don't always disagree. I think we agree more often than disagree, but difference focuses the dialog on the disagreement to get to a fine understanding on the matter. That is why we post here, to share information and learn. When everybody says the same thing there is nothing to learn (unless you have blank spots).

What is also a common sentiment in America, and something that irritates non-americans is their xenofobia disguised as patriottism. And on that bombshell... No, i can't walk away on that. It's good to be proud of your country (something that we, the dutch, lack very much) and the things you make. But so are other people. It is hard to apreciate something made in a country of which your media is constantly bombarding you with propaganda of animosity, hostile intent, scandals, stealing jobs, communism... yada yada yada. I am with a starting business in bamboo we get from a Chinese distributer. I can tell you, there's a big difference in culture that can't be 'google translate'- ed. You need a lot of patience and empathy to do business. But when you do it is very worthwhile. You can't keep thinking that only American is best and that anything sent from outside is a risk, dangerous, bad or inferior.

Especially China is the largest, fastest growing economy with the largest number of engineers and graduates per annum. The world is changing. And it is said intelligence is the capability to adapt to change. So let's help eachother with that. (that's what I'm trying in my own socially awkward way)

PS 1:
 what Lolito said:lack of schematics. I can attest to that, and understand it very well. Given the the whole 'Musician Pegasus ripp-off thread', and culture of copying /lack of copyright in China you won't be seeing one soon. I've been thinking of modifications to the Ares, but I'm not risking it with these small smd components and without schematic. The Ares still sound fine 'as is'. Only the coax sounds a bit too 'rounded', rolled off to me. But only from CD as a source via coax. So i use my old  NOS R2R for that to get more openness and raw energy. CD's are often problematic anyway given the mastering practices of the post 90-ies.

PS 2:
On 'relativism'; while the dac is part of a system, it doesn't change anything about how the dac is set up on the inside. The dac itself is a system. So we are comparing one system of input preparation, power supply, conversion and outlut stage against another, different system of DAC. So if you change the output stage only, it is like saying you changed the amplifier, or the speakers, or the room or... See where this goes? Following your logic we are already talking about a system, so let's stick to the system inside the box. 

If you want to embrace relativism you say; "we're all part of the universe. The whole universe is changing". Sure, but we are talking about this particular object and how it performs in different settings. Some properties are set to perform within predefined parameters called standards. Like output impedance. That gives you a choice to make about the output stage. Do you want versatility (that most people dont need) on the outside by using extra components on the inside at the cost of signal integrity. Or do you single-mindedly chose to keep signal integrity? Minimalism: make it close to perfect for its intended purpose only. 

That choice reflects on what is inside the box: the boundary of the object of our discussion.


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## ShenaRingo326 (Jan 30, 2021)

Pr3ssAltF4 said:


> So I just got mine. Gotta say, in comparison to the Enog 2, it's night and day. ****ing loving it. I would say it could be tweaked, but I don't have the money to try everything or find exactly what I need. This does justice to what I listen on and what I listen to. I think that's high enough praise
> 
> Listening with the Gilmore Lite Mk2 and the RS-08 (which I got today) along with my eikons, clears, and elegias.



Hi there,

How's the synergy between Ares II and the GL MK2? I'm planning on upgrading my amp to the GL MK2 with GRPS in the near future to go with my DCA Aeon 2 Open, and then later down the road the Ares II.  I've seen some feedback that with software volume at 100%, this DAC's line out being at 2.2VRMS and the GL MK2's built in 7.5x gain limits you to very low settings on the volume POT?  Have you heard any channel imbalance in that range?

Thanks!


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## Lolito

]eep said:


> you are right, that is not an agreeable thing to say. But not everybody is always equally well-spoken or feeling at ease atm. Try not to take it personally. When you are tired or anxious (as many are in a lockdown) it is not that clear cut or easy to write flawless English,  especially if its a foreign language to you. You might want to take that into consideration before you feel you must slap somebody on the wrist. And when you do... better not make mistakes or you will look rather silly. I notice this many times that (often) Americans are not very understanding, appreciative or patient when others are trying to express themselves in _your_ language. And I'm not even speaking about diffetence in culture. Where I'm from, we don't beat around the bush and come straight to the point.
> 
> We don't always disagree. I think we agree more often than disagree, but difference focuses the dialog on the disagreement to get to a fine understanding on the matter. That is why we post here, to share information and learn. When everybody says the same thing there is nothing to learn (unless you have blank spots).
> 
> ...



for 1$ I read that whole entire thing. Should I send you my paypal address?


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## daytrader

Lolito said:


> for 1$ I read that whole entire thing. Should I send you my paypal address?


It’s a pretty long one, I’d ask for $2. 👅


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## Lolito

he seems to be right though


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## sajunky

+1. And we shouldn't have comments like that.

There is one thing I don't agree with @jeep (and we had discussion on that) is a balance between versatility and the things is believed that most people don't need. Talking about non-standard output impedance. It also impacts other things. By example a lack of a buffer separating ladder conversion process from a noise on output terminals is not about versatility.


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## grooveriders

Hi I'm looking to buy a new dac. Never heard an R2R dac before, how does it sound compared to the delta-sigma like Topping D90 for example? I am interest in the Ares II but I only stream on Tidal (mqa) so the topping D90 MQA got my attention but I have heard good things about the Ares II also. If I could get both D90 MQA and Ares II for the same price which would be a "better" choice?
1.I only stream on Tidal MQA
2.Mostly listen to funk,soul,Jazz,RnB,Pop and some classical etc. (no rock/hard rock and those stuffs)
3.I use balanced XLR output and Topping A90 at the moment.
Thanks in advance!!


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## Baten

I'd say Ares but only because I'm not interested in MQA whatsoever


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## Gabehcuod

Most "Chi-Fi" has local dealers in Australia which makes some of the stuff out of there, a no brainer.


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## sajunky (Jan 30, 2021)

grooveriders said:


> Hi I'm looking to buy a new dac. Never heard an R2R dac before, how does it sound compared to the delta-sigma like Topping D90 for example? I am interest in the Ares II but I only stream on Tidal (mqa) so the topping D90 MQA got my attention but I have heard good things about the Ares II also. If I could get both D90 MQA and Ares II for the same price which would be a "better" choice?
> 1.I only stream on Tidal MQA
> 2.Mostly listen to funk,soul,Jazz,RnB,Pop and some classical etc. (no rock/hard rock and those stuffs)
> 3.I use balanced XLR output and Topping A90 at the moment.
> Thanks in advance!!


1. Denafrips do reproduce CD stream with excellent quality, it doesn't need MQA. The same with other brands like Audio GD, Holo Audio and some brands that cost a fortune. Even my $42 Nobsound 8xTDA1387 DAC/HPA combo doesn't need MQA. Not exactly a level of quality that can compete against the above, but I use it when traveling and I can listen for hours with Sennheiser HD 4.50 BTNC without any fatigue.

2. Advantage of R2R conversion over DS is that it reproduce natural instruments preserving a natural tone, timbre and texture. From all those three DS converters only preserve tone. Having D90 and being happy from, you may be not aware of these terms, there are well known to musicians. It is explained there: https://www.musical-u.com/learn/whats-the-difference-between-tone-timbre-and-texture/
In a simple language, you are missing reverbations on a decay, typically demonstrated on piano notes, plunks on a quitar string or how long you hear a gong. With a complex sound my Topping D30 produce false harmonics. Even on a clean tones D30 turned to an unpleasant sound after only 10 minutes. However when listening to the electronic production in a style of Calvin Harris, this effect doesn't come up despite of a fact it is a massive sound. Problem is that it is not music of my choice.

For a music of your preference I strongly recommend audition for at least two weeks. Recognition of R2R sound do not come immediately. In the first moment you may notice only that on the D90 treble were stressed, carrying digital flare and now there are smooth and natural. The other things and a true enjoyment comes later.

3. XLR connection is beneficial, not essential, but you have it on Ares. Oh,  Forgotten...

You will have to sell A90. It is a poor design with dual SMPS violating design rules of preventing EMI and ground loops. This fault makes RCA inputs useless for many. But the biggest problem is because of using nested loopback architecture, similar to THX 789. It produce sterile dark sound, there is no music in the background. It will work the best with D90 as such information is already lost! For the Ares consider Asgard 3, it is the cheapest Class A amplifier I know giving good results, then Audio GD A-2 (nearly a half price of A90).

If you sell both D90-MQA/A90 with a loss, you will still have enough of money for Audio GD R-28 which comes with excellent headphone amplifier.


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## Baten

sajunky said:


> You will have to sell A90. It is a poor design with dual SMPS violating design rules of preventing EMI and ground loops. This fault makes RCA inputs useless for many. But the biggest problem is because of using nested loopback architecture, similar to THX 789. It produce sterile dark sound, there is no music in the background. It will work the best with D90 as such information is already lost! For the Ares consider Asgard 3, it is the cheapest Class A amplifier I know giving good results, then Audio GD A-2 (nearly a half price of A90).
> 
> If you sell both D90-MQA/A90 with a loss, you will still have enough of money for Audio GD R-28 which comes with excellent headphone amplifier.


Can't agree with this part really. Some will prefer the Asgard, sure, but others will prefer sound of the THX 789 or A90. It's a little unfair to claim it as a universal truth that the Asgard will be better for all. It's still down to preference.


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## sajunky (Jan 30, 2021)

Baten said:


> Can't agree with this part really. Some will prefer the Asgard, sure, but others will prefer sound of the THX 789 or A90. It's a little unfair to claim it as a universal truth that the Asgard will be better for all. It's still down to preference.


Some will prefer 789 over A90 and in reverse. However none of these amps has a place for pairing with Ares considering musical preference of the OP. You seem have forgotten this part as you talk about universal truth, I didn't.

Topping A90 is a particularly poor pairing with Ares for a reason I didn't mention, as I didn't expect raising a dispute. Ares output impedance is non-standard, above 1.4 kOhms on a balanced connection. RCA is out of question as A90 is defective. A90 has also non-standard impedance which is very low, I don't remember exact figure. It means that only a portion of the voltage is available for A90. This is not the worse things. Any low pass filter on the A90 input is moving down its cut-off frequency (due to a resistance of Ares output) that may fall in the audible range. A cut-off frequency also depends on the position of the pot. You get a figure, this pairing is not acceptable. And what about affecting linearity of the ladder by loading it with a very low impedance? It is designed to be loaded with 100 kOhms (47kOhms on RCA).


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## ]eep

I think MQA is overrated based on comments of different designers. It's in fact lossy and is a great vehicle for drm. In the age of high bandwidth available for everyone it is probably not just about saving bandwidth. The correction of dac peculiarities is a nice feature for delta sigma dacs (I'm not sure about the pre-echo of OS) but R2R is better anyway. However... 

I tried an unfolded mqa album and compared it to the redbook version and it sounded slightly better. I can't say if it's the same as if I was using oversampling but i think it goes beyond that. With the SMSL DP5 I have the possibility to send a fully unfolded MQA to the Ares, only I haven't found any files i can try (and I am not going to start streaming Tidal just to try, and I don't have the time/patience atm).


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## Baten

sajunky said:


> Some will prefer 789 over A90 and in reverse. However none of these amps has a place for pairing with Ares considering musical preference of the OP. You seem have forgotten this part as you talk about universal truth, I didn't.
> 
> Topping A90 is a particularly poor pairing with Ares for a reason I didn't mention, as I didn't expect raising a dispute. Ares output impedance is non-standard, above 1.4 kOhms on a balanced connection. RCA is out of question as A90 is defective. A90 has also non-standard impedance which is very low, I don't remember exact figure.


Yes, A90 has non-standard low input impedance; not sure about THX 789. However, one could also say the Ares II has a non-standard absurdly high output impedance for a modern DAC, due to omission of output (line) driver stage


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## sajunky (Jan 31, 2021)

Baten said:


> Yes, A90 has non-standard low input impedance; not sure about THX 789. However, one could also say the Ares II has a non-standard absurdly high output impedance for a modern DAC, due to omission of output (line) driver stage


True. I am careful. I always read specification. In a case of  Ares (Pontus, Venus, and Terminator varieties) it is written very clear, so I can make plans for pairing. I cannot blame them for doing so. If it is the way they can deliver the best sound quality for the customers, I accept it. I think @jeep will come up with explanation which I agree to some level.

On the D90 side there is no reason for chosing extremely low input impedance other than a desire to put it on the top of measurement ranks. There is a law of physics that thermal noise is proportional to the impedance. In some cases they can increase SNR figures for more than 10dB. Do user needs 10dB more headroom? I doubt so, but it allows to jump over some competitors by merely lowering input impedance. They don't publish this fact on the spec sheet (at least it wasn't when I was checking), they want users to spend money and find out later. They also think that lowering impedance will allow them to not install ESD protection devices, so there is no ESD protection components on A90. They did the same on their low cost version L30, also 'forgotten' about DC protection and what happen? There are cases of ESD related amp failures and in few cases it ended up with blowing up expensive headphones and damaging human ears. It is a serious negligence case. Now Topping is facing requests for a recall of all (>1000) amps which were made up to November (or December), but US consumer organisations didn't come up.


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## Baten

sajunky said:


> True. I am careful. I always read specification. In a case of  Ares (Pontus, Venus, and Terminator varieties) it is written very clear, so I can make plans for pairing. I cannot blame them for doing so. If it is the way they can deliver the best sound quality for the customers, I accept it. I think @jeep will come up with explanation which I agree to some level.
> 
> On the D90 side there is no reason for chosing extremely low input impedance other than a desire to put it on the top of measurement ranks. There is a law of physics that thermal noise is proportional to the impedance. In some cases they can increase SNR figures for more than 10dB. Do user needs 10dB more headroom? I doubt so, but it allows to jump over some competitors by merely lowering input impedance. They don't publish this fact on the spec sheet (at least it wasn't when I was checking), they want users to spend money and find out later. They also think that lowering impedance will allow them to not install ESD protection devices, so there is no ESD protection components on A90. They did the same on their low cost version L30, also 'forgotten' about DC protection and what happen? There are cases of ESD related amp failures and in few cases it ended up with blowing up expensive headphones and damaging human ears. It is a serious negligence case. Now Topping is facing requests for a recall of all (>1000) amps which were made up to November (or December), but US consumer organisations didn't come up.


This is super super off-topic but the A90 does not have the L30 ESD fault. There insn't a single case online, and its power scheme is much more elaborate. I call BS.


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## sajunky (Jan 31, 2021)

Baten said:


> This is super super off-topic but the A90 does not have the L30 ESD fault. There insn't a single case online, and its power scheme is much more elaborate. I call BS.


This is you complaining about off topping? .LOL.

In future you must be careful before calling what I wrote BS. In this case the only things that protects A90 users from ESD caused failure is the fact that RCA inputs are useless, so it is not used. XLR inputs are better designed giving ground connection first. It is the only reason there is still no similar cases with A90. ESD protection is missing the same as in L30. This is a fact you cannot deny. The rest is your speculation.


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## Dassrull

My Topping A90 and Denafrips Ares II sound absolutely fantastic together


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## Baten

Dassrull said:


> My Topping A90 and Denafrips Ares II sound absolutely fantastic together


My Topping A90 and Audial Aya II DAC sound very good together, too.. 
Again Sajunky, I'm not seeing any proof that the A90 has any ESD flaw.
In any case. I don't think this is the right thread for it.


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## sajunky

Baten said:


> My Topping A90 and Audial Aya II DAC sound very good together, too..
> Again Sajunky, I'm not seeing any proof that the A90 has any ESD flaw.
> In any case. I don't think this is the right thread for it.


clack! clack! clac! 
Show me ESD protectors on the A90 PCB, please - then we can talk in a separate thread.
This is the end  about A90 on my side.


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## ]eep (Feb 1, 2021)

I don't know if 600 Ohm would qualify as 'absurdly' high output impedance. It is (used to be?) standard in telecom where standards are derived from. 150 would be normal. Like input impedance of 47kOhm. As long as the difference is more than 10x there should be no problem. So in this worst case Ares A90 case its 30x, it's not yet 'livin' on the edge'.

[edit:] What was i thinking? I don't know how I came up with that multiplier... or the input inpedance of the A90... it is obviously NOT only about half. Maybe I confused it with the article I just read/studied [/edit] 

I do agree that Chinese engineers/copycats can sometimes forget about consequences because they're lazy or inexperienced, or are more concerned about reaching their target than quality or customer satisfaction but I really doubt this is the case for Denafrips. Rather the contrary. With Topping I'm not sure but the products I bought in the past were rather well made although not top quality. Great consumer grade but not high-end.

With my quest on modification of the TDA1543 I found that 470 Ohm gave the best sound  (some had 680) based on dynamics vs soundstage. I never had any problem with that value, enough output voltage. I remember when Cd-players were introduced they were screaming loud with 2V vs tuners, cassette players etc at 250mV. I think that wouldn't be very viable nowadays. Din standard input impedance is 100kOhm, so the common RCA is already low-ish in that regard.


----------



## sajunky (Feb 1, 2021)

]eep said:


> I don't know if 600 Ohm would qualify as 'absurdly' high output impedance. It is (used to be?) standard in telecom where standards are derived from. 150 would be normal. Like input impedance of 47kOhm. As long as the difference is more than 10x there should be no problem. *So in this worst case Ares A90 case its 30x*, it's not yet 'livin' on the edge'.


I wrote already that A90 has non-standard, very low input impedance. I don't remember exact figure, but it was shocking low (posted on Internet, most likely it was 2.4 kOhms). It was not written in any Topping specs sheet nor manual. They let you purchase first and find out later...

*It is confirmed by the Topping designer that A90 will not work correctly with Denafrips.*
The following quote is about SMSL M400 DAC which has the same type passive output as Denafrips and a similar output impedance.


> - which wedding do you recommend?
> - SMSL M400 MQA or Topping D90 MQA?
> The much higher output impedance about 1.2kohm of M400 won't work correctly with A90.


Source: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-headphone-amplifier-review.13592/post-411347


----------



## ]eep

sajunky said:


> I wrote already that A90 has non-standard, very low input impedance. I don't remember exact figure, but it was shocking low (posted on Internet, most likely it was 2.4 kOhms). It was not written in any Topping specs sheet nor manual. They let you purchase first and find out later...
> 
> *It is confirmed by the Topping designer that A90 will not work correctly with Denafrips.*
> The following quote is about SMSL M400 DAC which has the same type passive output as Denafrips and a similar output impedance.
> ...


sorry, my mistake. I made an unfounded assumption aka 'the mother of all screw'   But linking to ASR... I think I'll take your word for it.


----------



## sajunky (Feb 1, 2021)

]eep said:


> sorry, my mistake. I made an unfounded assumption aka 'the mother of all screw'   But linking to ASR... I think I'll take your word for it.


.LOL.
For getting a truth straight from a horse mouth I would perhaps descent to hell.


----------



## Maelob (Feb 4, 2021)

PopZeus said:


> Ugh, I've had nothing but freezing and crashes when I take the Ares II off of standby. Has anyone else had any issues with the USB implementation with Mac OSX?


Having same issues too. I am leaving it on. I was wondering if my iMac was dying but appears to be an issue. So frustrating to buy equipment based on reviews and nobody ever mentions quirks or issues. Sounds good but it’s kind of annoying


----------



## Maelob

For those having issues with Mac freezing , contact Alvin at  sales@vinshineaudio.com- supposedly there is a firmware update for MAC. I just emailed them. Fingers crossed, will keep you updated


----------



## hikaru12 (Feb 5, 2021)

I'm considering this DAC currently. I've had the Yggy GS, Gumby, and Bifrost 2 (currently) and am trying to decide if I want to take the detail plunge with the Qutest or the tonality plunge with the Ares. It's certainly priced way more affordably than say something like the Onyx or Amethyst. Pursuing the detail train is a lot of fun and I always end up regretting it if I don't try to maximize all the little microdetails I want to hear with higher end equipment but enjoyment is just, if not the most important. Tough decision all the way around..


----------



## Maelob

Maelob said:


> For those having issues with Mac freezing , contact Alvin at  sales@vinshineaudio.com- supposedly there is a firmware update for MAC. I just emailed them. Fingers crossed, will keep you updated


Bad news- for MAC users you need a PC to do the firmware update and I don’t have one.

 Good news talked to Alvin at Vinshine and it’s ok to leave DAC on. They are aware of the MAC issue and are working for a an update for MAC but may take few months.


----------



## ]eep

Apple even managed to unrail intel, so beware of it's proprietary software


----------



## Lolito

Maelob said:


> Bad news- for MAC users you need a PC to do the firmware update and I don’t have one.
> 
> Good news talked to Alvin at Vinshine and it’s ok to leave DAC on. They are aware of the MAC issue and are working for a an update for MAC but may take few months.


you can run windows inside any macos machine with parallels desktop. You can get parallels desktop online for free, illegally, but easy. or pay for it. Or use any friend/office windows machine. No big deal. not a mac software problem actually, more like the manufacture working primarily on the system that has 85% of the market already.


----------



## Lolito (Feb 9, 2021)

Maelob said:


> Having same issues too. I am leaving it on. I was wondering if my iMac was dying but appears to be an issue. So frustrating to buy equipment based on reviews and nobody ever mentions quirks or issues. Sounds good but it’s kind of annoying


indeed, thanks god for forums though. they save you money if you skip the hype. nothing more annoying than an erratic dac. I had a khadas tone board, which is a cheap thing, but sound is quite decent, for the price it's amazing sound actually, for a cheap desktop setup... but it turns off with any energy peak created by the coffee machine i had. had to sell that dac.


----------



## Maelob

Lolito said:


> you can run windows inside any macos machine with parallels desktop. You can get parallels desktop online for free, illegally, but easy. or pay for it. Or use any friend/office windows machine. No big deal. not a mac software problem actually, more like the manufacture working primarily on the system that has 85% of the market already.


lol brain fart forgot about it, thanks for the reminder, good idea


----------



## Nickol

gimmeheadroom said:


> Oh. Well, R2R is not necessarily older. I think the RME hits the sweet spot for being resolving yet musical. I have said many times I think it's the best thousand dollars anybody will ever spend on audio gear. There are tons and tons of DACs available and the good R2R DACs start around 1500 USD I think. It could be an expensive journey.


I disagree with you completely. RME sounds analytical and neutral, it gets in the way of your music enjoyment. Ares II sounds much more musical in comparison.


----------



## Nickol

312elements said:


> I’m not suggesting that the RME sounds bad. I think it’s of the best D/S DACs available, but I want to hear for myself if there’s magic in the older R-2R tech. In terms of what I’m hoping to achieve it’s mostly in depth.


You are on the right track. RME sounds analytical and neutral, it gets in the way of your music enjoyment. Ares II sounds much more musical in comparison.


----------



## gimmeheadroom (Feb 11, 2021)

Nickol said:


> I disagree with you completely. RME sounds analytical and neutral, it gets in the way of your music enjoyment. Ares II sounds much more musical in comparison.


Everything is relative. It is more musical than most of the DACs I have and less analytical than most of the DACs I have.

I don't have the Ares and I'm not comparing it to that since I haven't heard it.

And I would hazard to say the RME hits the sweet spot because although it is very resolving, it does not sound analytical as in cold or unmusical. Really quite a magical piece of gear.


----------



## daytrader

gimmeheadroom said:


> Everything is relative. It is more musical than most of the DACs I have and less analytical than most of the DACs I have.
> 
> I don't have the Ares and I'm not comparing it to that since I haven't heard it.
> 
> And I would hazard to say the RME hits the sweet spot because although it is very resolving, it does not sound analytical as in cold or unmusical. Really quite a magical piece of gear.


I’m guessing would pair with a tube system nicely if this is the case?


----------



## gimmeheadroom

daytrader said:


> I’m guessing would pair with a tube system nicely if this is the case?


Depending on the headphones you can run them right off the unit. From my point of view the RME already has enough warmth that solid state amps would be fine.


----------



## daytrader (Feb 11, 2021)

gimmeheadroom said:


> Depending on the headphones you can run them right off the unit. From my point of view the RME already has enough warmth that solid state amps would be fine.


I’m of the thinking headphones is the first place to start when one is considering the tonal balance of character, not a dac.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

You asked about the RME with a tube amp.


----------



## daytrader (Feb 11, 2021)

gimmeheadroom said:


> You asked about the RME with a tube amp.


I did.  But you brought up headphones so I just added my thoughts to it.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

LOL


----------



## daytrader

gimmeheadroom said:


> LOL


I’m glad we cleared that up! 😉


----------



## gimmeheadroom




----------



## daytrader




----------



## Maelob

Lolito said:


> you can run windows inside any macos machine with parallels desktop. You can get parallels desktop online for free, illegally, but easy. or pay for it. Or use any friend/office windows machine. No big deal. not a mac software problem actually, more like the manufacture working primarily on the system that has 85% of the market already.


No luck using parallel program, as soon as i turn the turn on and off the dac, my computer freezes or does not recognize driver , I tried but started getting frustrated. I will probably use a friends laptop to update at a later time. But so far no issues when leaving the the DAC on.


----------



## sajunky

daytrader said:


>



Which version it is? I have problem with getting a good version of this recording, all remastering gives zero noise, but to much bright . I prefer oil paint to the digital sharpness photos.


----------



## daytrader

Can only be found on a nice 180 gram pressing, along with a generous sip of a single malt scotch. 🥃


----------



## dermott

hikaru12 said:


> I'm considering this DAC currently. I've had the Yggy GS, Gumby, and Bifrost 2 (currently) and am trying to decide if I want to take the detail plunge with the Qutest or the tonality plunge with the Ares. It's certainly priced way more affordably than say something like the Onyx or Amethyst. Pursuing the detail train is a lot of fun and I always end up regretting it if I don't try to maximize all the little microdetails I want to hear with higher end equipment but enjoyment is just, if not the most important. Tough decision all the way around..


What is it about all the Schiit that has left you wanting?


----------



## YtseJamer

Pontus II review

https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2021/02/12/denafrips-pontus-ii-dac-review/


----------



## sajunky

It is reading like a transcript for YouTube video.


----------



## InstantSilence

Is there even a more smoother, less punchy transient, r2r dac than the ares 2?


----------



## sajunky

InstantSilence said:


> Is there even a more smoother, less punchy transient, r2r dac than the ares 2?


You are looking for a vintage R2R DAC, are you?


----------



## InstantSilence

sajunky said:


> You are looking for a vintage R2R DAC, are you?


I'm looking for the smoothest, laid-back presentation ever


----------



## Baten

InstantSilence said:


> I'm looking for the smoothest, laid-back presentation ever


TDA1541A DAC? Check out https://www.audialonline.com/
PCM1704UK is also legendary. SMSL was gonna make an 'SMSL VNV D2' with it but it never released.. so far..
https://twitter.com/smsl_official/status/1149247571275259904?lang=en


----------



## George Hincapie

InstantSilence said:


> I'm looking for the smoothest, laid-back presentation ever



Border Patrol SE.


----------



## Guidostrunk

Also the old Theta offerings like Pro Basic iii, Pro Gen V, Pro Prime 2a...


----------



## InstantSilence

Thanks so much guys, some of this stuff is rare but I got my eyes open. 

Now... What's the smoothest laid back presentation ever in an Amp? 
LOL


----------



## Guidostrunk

InstantSilence said:


> Thanks so much guys, some of this stuff is rare but I got my eyes open.
> 
> Now... What's the smoothest laid back presentation ever in an Amp?
> LOL


Bottlehead Crack and Woo audio WA6 were the most laid back amps I've ever owned. I'd imagine the Woo WA2 would even be more so coz topology. OTL being first and OTC being next in line. 

They lack the dynamic swings , impact and the glaring nature of SS and Hybrids. 

But there's a catch. OTL and OTC aren't recommended for hard to drive low impedance cans that need lots of current. Mainly planars.


----------



## InstantSilence

Guidostrunk said:


> Bottlehead Crack and Woo audio WA6 were the most laid back amps I've ever owned. I'd imagine the Woo WA2 would even be more so coz topology. OTL being first and OTC being next in line.
> 
> They lack the dynamic swings , impact and the glaring nature of SS and Hybrids.
> 
> But there's a catch. OTL and OTC aren't recommended for hard to drive low impedance cans that need lots of current. Mainly planars.


Darn! Just Darn!  
Is there a way to make them work? Lmao. 
WA6 really wouldn't make the 4z sing?


----------



## ]eep

InstantSilence said:


> Is there even a more smoother, less punchy transient, r2r dac than the ares 2?


Huh? That is a (false) statement wrapped into a question. I personally come to hate these type of questions because it's used all the time by so-called 'journalists' from the mainstream media (ie propanda tools). 

If you really want less punchy transients (why the hell do you want to deliberately throw away information?) you might want to try vintage gear. 

Now here the good advice for cheapskates: If you want an easy cheap and cheerful entry into R2R to try how it sounds (that can be easily tweaked) there's a €20 47-labs clone with 1 Philips tda1543 on Aliexpress. You can tweak the output resistors to squeeze all the life out of it if you so desire (cheap 0.25w carbon resistors are fine,  value 2k should be nominal, higher to squeeze, lower to inflate). 

And another one: get a media player with Hiby OS (like Tempotec/Hidizs or Smsl) and tune your sound any way you like with MSEB, slide the Note thickness all the way up to 'thick' and 'bass textures' all the way up to 'thumpy'. Small dap takes sd cards and sound quality is 20/20, even native DSD 256)


----------



## InstantSilence

]eep said:


> Huh? That is a (false) statement wrapped into a question. I personally come to hate these type of questions because it's used all the time by so-called 'journalists' from the mainstream media (ie propanda tools).
> 
> If you really want less punchy transients (why the hell do you want to deliberately throw away information?) you might want to try vintage gear.
> 
> ...


I'm looking for smooth dac/amp desktop, because I have some ear issues. Punchy, slamming transients and dynamics hurt me, I need something as laid back as possible.


----------



## Baten

]eep said:


> Huh? That is a (false) statement wrapped into a question. I personally come to hate these type of questions because it's used all the time by so-called 'journalists' from the mainstream media (ie propanda tools).
> 
> If you really want less punchy transients (why the hell do you want to deliberately throw away information?) you might want to try vintage gear.
> 
> ...


TDA1543 Chinese DACs suck ass IMO


----------



## ]eep

Baten said:


> TDA1543 Chinese DACs suck ass IMO


that's one way of putting it... Depends greatly on how it's done. I don't have an opinion about it, I've spend almost a year getting to understand dacs and the TDA1543 in particular and there's nothing wrong with the TDA1543 chip. 

It depends on what input chip and the output filter.


----------



## sajunky (Mar 6, 2021)

InstantSilence said:


> I'm looking for smooth dac/amp desktop, because I have some ear issues. Punchy, slamming transients and dynamics hurt me, I need something as laid back as possible.


I am responding only as I saw your PM. I am afraid I can't answer this question straight away, but maybe I can give some hints. Answers can be a whole misleading, as we don't know your past experience, music preference and what actually hurts your brain.

Punchy and slamming transients is a most what House or EDM music stands for. Delta-Sigma converters reproduce it quite well (even enhance by ringing), there are number of filters types to deal with the issue. For me ringing is not an issue even with the most compressed music produced by Calvin Harris - 18 Months (2012) and a likes. I like a complex music structure, but this one is not my preference, giving just as an example. I am saying, it doesn't hurt my brain. I can listen Calvin Harris for hours (if I want) without a fatigue on my Topping D30, but I can't listen for even 20 minutes music of my choice on the same DAC which is jazz, classical, some pop, old rock.... all involved with acoustic instruments. There is something terrible wrong happening during fast transients which cause my brain giving up. Initially there is lot of details, but these details are fading and fast transients start to hurt, I stop listening. Period.

Initially I was very resistant to the adoption of CD format. Till I found CD player with PCM63 DAC which is a laser trimmed R2R ladder type. Since then I started to collect CD's. Very recently I had to replace all my gear and D30 was first try, but became a big disapointment. I returned to a ladder type idea by importing a Nobsound 8xTDA1387. It is a $42 device with a passive conversion (like in Ares) and little bit vintage R2R sound due to use of the old oversampling interface chip, but I rediscovered a world of true harmonics, still is serving me well on the road, as is portable. Now I also own Audio GD R2R-11, it produce incredibly punchy sound that....*doesn't hurt*...

As you are asking in Ares thread, it has a passive type I/V conversion and no buffer, its sound presentation is by definition less punchy when comparing to the R2R-11 as transients are filtered a bit on interconnections. There is no way Ares would enhance transients. I think it is a question in a wrong thread, but it is right that you are researching.


----------



## Uncle00Jesse

Are th SE outputs in the ares 2 hampered vs balanced? I know the bf2 is good single ended but is the denafrips?


----------



## ]eep

I play se only, works fine. Really most hifi amplifiers do not have xlr inputs. So it wouldn't be good marketing to handicap it by not giving it a good performance on 99% of customers systems. Ok, let's call high end users more tech savvy and call it 90%.


----------



## daytrader (Mar 6, 2021)

]eep said:


> I play se only, works fine. Really most hifi amplifiers do not have xlr inputs. So it wouldn't be good marketing to handicap it by not giving it a good performance on 99% of customers systems. Ok, let's call high end users more tech savvy and call it 90%.


OMG! I’m so not offended. 😜


----------



## Lolito

Mac problems were fixed with the new firmware? Amazing how in the audio world stuff is released with a ton of failures, praised by the reviewers and testers anyways, and only after you realise how good or not it actually is. that being said, hope it is fixed and that waiting list is over.


----------



## ]eep

huh? Thats like blaming your 50yo car for standing still in front of capricious traffic lights. Rules changing every day. IT industry just looooves 'updates': fixing their own mistakes that they kept under the hood and introducing 9 new problems while they're at it. Audio is rather static and high-end is rather a niche market. So you can imagine how that interacts with an arrogant IT industry. If you want to cuddle up in the area where those two meet: DAC's and especially usb connections, you're bound to end up in a conflict zone. 
The good thing is that this interaction has brought a lot of progress. At a cost. Look at the state of specialist audio stores, it's getting really hard to make your own comparisons and be confident in what you buy for many people with not much experience. 
That might be the reason for the popularity of vinyl? The whole experience is oldschool, it just works mostly mechanical and its just more 'zen'.


----------



## daytrader

Good God, I’m so glad I’m not in this Ares thread anymore! I have no idea what the hell people are talking about? 🗿


----------



## TheRealDz

So...

What's the scoop with the Ares 2 not being able to be plugged into balanced and SE devices simultaneously? 

I saw that the distributor recommended against it theoretically.  But what are the owner experiences?  

I need to be able to plug both XLR and SE devices into my Jot2 and need to know whether this is really a thing, or whether it is just an overblown thing.

Profile and performance wise, the Ares really appeals to me, but Schiit's Bifrost2 is also in contention as an alternative ladder DAC.  And apparently there are zero issues with the Bifrost2 being connected via XLR and rca at the same time.

Anyone with any experience with the ares while connectedrob both se and XLR.

Thanks!  

Dan


----------



## Maelob (Mar 20, 2021)

TheRealDz said:


> So...
> 
> What's the scoop with the Ares 2 not being able to be plugged into balanced and SE devices simultaneously?
> 
> ...


Never mind


----------



## shafat777

TheRealDz said:


> So...
> 
> What's the scoop with the Ares 2 not being able to be plugged into balanced and SE devices simultaneously?
> 
> ...


Its a real thing. When both output is in use (or  even plugged in) the volume drops a little in both se and xlr and to me, it seems as if its less clear. Everything has a muddy feel to them.


----------



## Maelob

shafat777 said:


> Its a real thing. When both output is in use (or  even plugged in) the volume drops a little in both se and xlr and to me, it seems as if its less clear. Everything has a muddy feel to them.


You know thanks for the input,  I didn’t realize that they didn’t recommend using both outputs at the same time. What that’s just lame-


----------



## sajunky

Maelob said:


> You know thanks for the input,  I didn’t realize that they didn’t recommend using both outputs at the same time. What that’s just lame-


This is a passive output, not buffered. A load of a cable (capacitance, reflections, ground loops, EMI) and finally an input impedance of the amp form a part of the ladder's I/F conversion. For the last reason you must make sure that the amp has an industry standard input impedance. If you don't see input impedance in the spec-sheet you have to pass on such offering. These are restrictions, there are benefits as well.


----------



## Katholm

TheRealDz said:


> So...
> 
> What's the scoop with the Ares 2 not being able to be plugged into balanced and SE devices simultaneously?
> 
> ...


Im in the same crossroad as well, this really suck. I have a SS amp and a tube amp which i wanna use with 1 dac. Weird engineering problem, this needs to be added on the officialsite, it could be a deal breaker if i knew.


----------



## simon740

sajunky said:


> This is a passive output, not buffered. A load of a cable (capacitance, reflections, ground loops, EMI) and finally an input impedance of the amp form a part of the ladder's I/F conversion. For the last reason you must make sure that the amp has an industry standard input impedance. If you don't see input impedance in the spec-sheet you have to pass on such offering. These are restrictions, there are benefits as well.


Hello,

I have Exposure 3010S2D integrated amp with input impedance 17K Ohm minimum (line input) and input sensitivity 250mV.
Will be Ares II or Pontus II ok with this amp?

regards,
Simon


----------



## daytrader

TheRealDz said:


> So...
> 
> What's the scoop with the Ares 2 not being able to be plugged into balanced and SE devices simultaneously?
> 
> ...


Dan.
the importer tells you not to, but you stil want some random user here in headfi to tell you otherwise?  I just don’t get it.  Either use the Ares as intended or look elsewher.  Not being harsh just trying to save some unwanted consequences.  The Bifrost2 is a worthy contender if need be.


----------



## sajunky (Mar 20, 2021)

simon740 said:


> I have Exposure 3010S2D integrated amp with input impedance 17K Ohm minimum (line input) and input sensitivity 250mV.
> Will be Ares II or Pontus II ok with this amp?


A little bit to low from a standard SE 47 kOhm input, I think is still OK, *assuming it is SE input*. If 17k is on XLR, I wouldn't judge so easy. There are also amps with extremely low impedance like Topping A90/l30 and probably a new A30Pro, it is around 2.5k Ohm, very close to a ladder output, you must be careful.


----------



## TheRealDz

Thanks Shafat. 

This is the kind of insight I wanted to hear (although not the answer I wanted).  While it was admirable for the distributor to admit such a potential issue with the product, I wanted more context. 

I highly value soft treble, soundstage, etc, and think the Ares sound profile is a better fit than the BF2. But now I really need to give some thought to how likely it is that I will need to have that additional SE output plugged in... 



shafat777 said:


> Its a real thing. When both output is in use (or  even plugged in) the volume drops a little in both se and xlr and to me, it seems as if its less clear. Everything has a muddy feel to them.


----------



## shafat777

TheRealDz said:


> Thanks Shafat.
> 
> This is the kind of insight I wanted to hear (although not the answer I wanted).  While it was admirable for the distributor to admit such a potential issue with the product, I wanted more context.
> 
> I highly value soft treble, soundstage, etc, and think the Ares sound profile is a better fit than the BF2. But now I really need to give some thought to how likely it is that I will need to have that additional SE output plugged in...


Lucky for you, I actually own both and can answer any question that you might have. I would say that the Ares 2 in se connected to my Elise is the most tube sounding equipment that i have ever heard. The Bf2 sound leans more towards an organic sound with the precision and accuracy of a Delta sigma dac like D90. I think either dac would serve you well. I found the tubey sound of the Ares2 was a bit too much with my GSX mini so i use it with my Ares. The Bf2 being more d90 like, sounds better with SS amps like the mini.


----------



## simon740 (Mar 20, 2021)

sajunky@​yes, only SE input. 
Thank you

regards,
Simon


----------



## daytrader

shafat777 said:


> Lucky for you, I actually own both and can answer any question that you might have. I would say that the Ares 2 in se connected to my Elise is the most tube sounding equipment that i have ever heard. The Bf2 sound leans more towards an organic sound with the precision and accuracy of a Delta sigma dac like D90. I think either dac would serve you well. I found the tubey sound of the Ares2 was a bit too much with my GSX mini so i use it with my Ares. The Bf2 being more d90 like, sounds better with SS amps like the mini.


OS with slow filter somewhat fixed that if you are using NOS.  Even more so if you go to OS with sharp but it can get a little to hot on top with less quality recordings.


----------



## Maelob

I am using the xlr output to my LTA Z10 amp to listen to headphones but would like to use another output to connect to my mini dsp with Dirac room correction to listen to my speakers. I wonder if I can split the xlr output of ares2 and then use an xlr-se cable to connect to mini dsp.


----------



## sajunky (Mar 20, 2021)

TheRealDz said:


> I highly value soft treble, soundstage, etc, and think the Ares sound profile is a better fit than the BF2. But now I really need to give some thought to how likely it is that I will need to have that additional SE output plugged in...


Would you consider a combo DAC with pre-amp and HPA like this? It sounds similar to the Ares being a pure R2R ladder type and without a shift towards DS converters of a Bifrost (as it was pointed out). It is NOS only, if you like oversampling smoothness, it can be done on PC with Foobar 2000 with SoX (I tried, NOS works for me the best). The preamp allows a fixed volume or a variable, but it will switch off RCA output when using headphones. At least you will have two devices plugged at the same time.


----------



## Chodi

TheRealDz said:


> So...
> 
> What's the scoop with the Ares 2 not being able to be plugged into balanced and SE devices simultaneously?
> 
> ...


I have the Ares II set up both balanced into an Auralic Taurus and single ended into a tube amp. Obviously only one amp is on at a time. I did this experiment and I can agree with the earlier poster that it does make a difference if both are plugged in but it is a small difference that many would probably not notice.  After doing this testing I got in the habit of unplugging the output not in use. Not very convenient but in my case easily accessible. I agree that the Ares II seems to be reacting to the additional load even if inactive, but again, the difference is slight. Might be more noticeable depending on your cables and amps in the system. The Ares II is such a wonderful sounding dac for the money that I can hardly complain about unplugging the cable not in use.


----------



## gto88

Chodi said:


> The Ares II is such a wonderful sounding dac for the money that I can hardly complain about unplugging the cable not in use.


+1


----------



## Lolito

Ares 2 is light years ahead of bifrost in SQ. Light years. The schiit dac is a 350€ dac sold for much more. The Ares 2 is a 3000€ dac sold for much less. Now schiit is more accesible, easier to get, closer to americans, 5 years warranty in USA. two colors available. All that great, awesome, amazing and wonderful. And people is very familiar with it and with Schiit. All that is truly wonderful, but they are not comparable dacs, at all.


----------



## ]eep

Katholm said:


> Im in the same crossroad as well, this really suck. I have a SS amp and a tube amp which i wanna use with 1 dac. Weird engineering problem, this needs to be added on the officialsite, it could be a deal breaker if i knew.


this is not an engineering problem. This is a user problem not understanding the engineering inside. 

If you and the others who are complaining about this care to read back in this thread you would read that Alvin, the distributor Vinshine Audio, already gave you a viable option for using multiple outputs with a diagram. 

It is a conscientious compromise not to be able to use both outputs at the same time. The intention is to get the maximum soundquality and output and input options for the least amount of money. The balanced output was obviously a prerequisite and since most people do not use or have a balanced input the RCA was put in so it could be used without adaptor by 99% of customers. 

If you look inside there are 4 lines of R2R, 2 per channel. That means a + and a -  per channel. Now the XLR takes a +, a - and ground. The RCA only takes the same + plus ground. If you want to have 2 outputs you can't just split the + into 2 lines. You need an (pre)amplifier to do this. But if you are smart you can just take the +/ground to one output and the - /ground to another output without penalty. 

If anyone wants 36 outputs on a consumer product, fhere is no such thing. There is no consumer market to make this in mass production. You want a custom solution. Even if you want 'only' 2 its also a custom solution since this is a dac, not a preamplifier. 

That most DS dacs don't have a problem with this is because they need an extra amplification stage after the actual dac chip because the output is way to low. This is actually a benefit for the Ares and other R2R dacs because they do not need this extra amplification stage and that is also a reason that it sounds as good as it does. Short signal path==clearer sound. Denafrips chose not to cater to the 0.1% customers at the cost of losing quality for the 99.9%.

The solution if you want more outputs is get a preamp or mixing console. But you will probably lose quality. What I did since I need an extra line to my bass-amp is just use rca, feed all lines to a passive preamp (just relais) and make an extra output with a resistor in line so the bass-amp just gets a tiny signal. It has plenty of headroom on its own. No need to use an extra preamp just to throw it away in the volume pot of the bass-amp.


----------



## TheRealDz

Thanks Chodi! 

This is also great feedback, and very helpful. 

My use case is that I want to be able to run my dac balanced into my Jot2, but also into a Vali 2 for a change of pace and to have some fun with tube rolling (it has been about 15 years since I have had tube gear to play with). 

But ultimately, my priority is maximum sonic performance while still matching my sonic preferences.  I think I can put up with the inconvenience of unplugging the respective amp that's not in use. 




Chodi said:


> I have the Ares II set up both balanced into an Auralic Taurus and single ended into a tube amp. Obviously only one amp is on at a time. I did this experiment and I can agree with the earlier poster that it does make a difference if both are plugged in but it is a small difference that many would probably not notice.  After doing this testing I got in the habit of unplugging the output not in use. Not very convenient but in my case easily accessible. I agree that the Ares II seems to be reacting to the additional load even if inactive, but again, the difference is slight. Might be more noticeable depending on your cables and amps in the system. The Ares II is such a wonderful sounding dac for the money that I can hardly complain about unplugging the cable not in use.


----------



## Maelob

]eep said:


> this is not an engineering problem. This is a user problem not understanding the engineering inside.
> 
> If you and the others who are complaining about this care to read back in this thread you would read that Alvin, the distributor Vinshine Audio, already gave you a viable option for using multiple outputs with a diagram.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the information and for been direct lol well you know people here have all kinds of systems with headphone amps, pre amps, power amps, integrated amps, subwoofers etc etc. I admit I over reacted, in my case after thinking about it it’s not really an issue I have no problem splitting a signal that should take care of business.


----------



## Lolito

why not just get a decent+cheap XLR passive switch? would it introduce noise and/or reduce clarity? You can get a 1in/3out switch, but I guess I am missing something.


----------



## daytrader

Lolito said:


> why not just get a decent+cheap XLR passive switch? would it introduce noise and/or reduce clarity? You can get a 1in/3out switch, but I guess I am missing something.


A high quality switch box sounds like a good idea.


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## EJSorona (Mar 22, 2021)

shafat777 said:


> Lucky for you, I actually own both and can answer any question that you might have. I would say that the Ares 2 in se connected to my Elise is the most tube sounding equipment that i have ever heard. The Bf2 sound leans more towards an organic sound with the precision and accuracy of a Delta sigma dac like D90. I think either dac would serve you well. I found the tubey sound of the Ares2 was a bit too much with my GSX mini so i use it with my Ares. The Bf2 being more d90 like, sounds better with SS amps like the mini.


I'm on a similar dilemma as TheRealDZ. I have a tube amp simliar to the ELISE (4 tubes), which it's normally intended for my Sennheiser HD800S. The amp has both 1/4 TRS and 4-pin XLR outputs, but back end is pretty weird: it has RCA ins, RCA outs and a single male 3 pin XLR input.
I currently own a Schiit Modi 2 Uber, which is single ended only, and I plug it to the tube amp with an RCA (two males) to 3-pin XLR cable (one female).
Maybe it's not truly balanced, or the signal actually gets balanced inside the amp.
I'm also getting SR-L700 Mk II earspeakers with an SRM-353X energizer, wich has XLR inputs.
For R2R I'm having a hard time deciding between the BF2 and the Ares II. I'm more inclined to the Ares, but I read very good opinions about the BF2 aswell.
I just want to get the best for setup. HD800S are neutral, I had to use some pretty spicy pre-amp tubes to warm the sound up, but it turned out to be a little too spicy and tiring at times (but goodness, they made those drivers more more air at the same volume level), so I went back to more lean tubes (and also because one of the spicy tubes broke).
I know that the Modi 2U is just not enough, it's bottlenecking the rest of the equipment.
Honestly if I had more money I would go for the Ares II and the Gungnir MB rather than the BF2.


----------



## TheRealDz

Thanks, Lolito - this is also good insight. 

You and I seem to have similar sonic tastes, so I value your input.  That said, have you had an opportunity to hear both units?  (Not to question you, but rather to confirm since we are often aligned) 




Lolito said:


> Ares 2 is light years ahead of bifrost in SQ. Light years. The schiit dac is a 350€ dac sold for much more. The Ares 2 is a 3000€ dac sold for much less. Now schiit is more accesible, easier to get, closer to americans, 5 years warranty in USA. two colors available. All that great, awesome, amazing and wonderful. And people is very familiar with it and with Schiit. All that is truly wonderful, but they are not comparable dacs, at all.


----------



## shafat777

EJSorona said:


> I'm on a similar dilemma as TheRealDZ. I have a tube amp simliar to the ELISE (4 tubes), which it's normally intended for my Sennheiser HD800S. The amp has both 1/4 TRS and 4-pin XLR outputs, but back end is pretty weird: it has RCA ins, RCA outs and a single male 3 pin XLR input.
> I currently own a Schiit Modi 2 Uber, which is single ended only, and I plug it to the tube amp with an RCA (two males) to 3-pin XLR cable (one female).
> Maybe it's not truly balanced, or the signal actually gets balanced inside the amp.
> I'm also getting SR-L700 Mk II earspeakers with an SRM-353X energizer, wich has XLR inputs.
> ...


Dont think for a second that the BF2 isnt as capable as the Ares 2. As a matter of fact, they are both really similar in their technical performance. The Ares 2 is organic sounding, so it sounds good with my tubey Elise. Where as the BF2 is more neutral and clean, so it sounds better with SS amp (maybe some tube amp, IMO). I didnt really like the Ares 2 with my gsx-mini. It sounded kinda weird (vague). On the other hand, i didnt enjoy the synergy between the Bf2 and mini, hence i have my amps and dacs connected the way they are. IF you can tell me the name of your tube amp, i can look it up and see which dac will suit your needs more.


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## EJSorona (Mar 22, 2021)

shafat777 said:


> Dont think for a second that the BF2 isnt as capable as the Ares 2. As a matter of fact, they are both really similar in their technical performance. The Ares 2 is organic sounding, so it sounds good with my tubey Elise. Where as the BF2 is more neutral and clean, so it sounds better with SS amp (maybe some tube amp, IMO). I didnt really like the Ares 2 with my gsx-mini. It sounded kinda weird (vague). On the other hand, i didnt enjoy the synergy between the Bf2 and mini, hence i have my amps and dacs connected the way they are. IF you can tell me the name of your tube amp, i can look it up and see which dac will suit your needs more.


Thanks for the input. My tube amp was hand made by a local techinician, or else I would have mentioned the brand name and model.
Basically it's has two RCA 6080 power tubes and two 6SN7 WGTA JAN Sylvania (black base) pre-amp/driver tubes, ALPS Japan potentiometer, a 150w power supply, Siemens and audiophiler coupling capacitors.
The amp actually came with a mismatched pair of 6SN7 tubes. Even I could tell that they weren't the same model. The maker of the amp suggested me the CV-181-Z tubes as the best replacement possible for the 6SN7. I went for a matched pair of CV-181, but they were the TII variant made by PSVANE. The Z are made by Shuguang. Like I said before, one of them broke and replaced them for the JAN Sylvania ones. Maybe I'll purchase a single CV181TII in the future and have it matched to the other one. It might work, it might sound like utter garbage or uneven. I can also look for the brown base Sylvania 6SN7, which are considered the best sounding by many, or go for one of the Shuguang ones.
Those chinese tubes are rather expensive, and importing them is kind of a pain.
The power tubes can be replaced by 6AS7 ones.
The Ares II have NOS and OS modes, and slow and fast roll-off. Most people seem to prefer the OS with slow roll-off combination for the most parts, and that in NOS mode it falls behind the BF2, thou some people actually like it for some songs or music genres. YMMV. NOS is ideal if you want a more compressed soundstage, whereas OS has bigger, more 3D soundstage, and better imaging. At least that's what I gather from all the reviews I read.
The BF2, has a custom made USB interface and comes with a remote control.
TBH, even a Schiit Modius is going to be an improvement over my Modi 2U. It's my first DAC, so I didn't know better back in 2016.


----------



## sajunky (Mar 22, 2021)

EJSorona said:


> Thanks for the input. My tube amp was hand made by a local techinician, or else I would have mentioned the brand name and model.


I am afraid, nobody will give definitive answer, you will have to listen yourself.

BF2 is in a different league than Ares. It can be better compared with Soekris. A good tube amp should sound better on Ares in NOS mode, but you must make sure that NOS suit your taste. I think the best is to visit a local shop and try other NOS DAC first.


----------



## shafat777

sajunky said:


> I am afraid, nobody will give definitive answer, you will have to listen yourself.
> 
> BF22 is in a different league than Ares. It can be better compared with Soekris. A good tube amp should sound better on Ares in NOS mode, but you must make sure that NOS suit your taste. I think the best is to visit a local shop and try other NOS DAC first.


NOS mode till i die. When i originally received the Ares 2, it had the OS mode set and it blew my mind because my Elise never sounded so SS and clean/sterile. Almost too clean and none of my good tubes were doing anything. Once i switched on NOS mode, then everything started sounding the way it should. Every once in a while, when im bored, i try switching between NOS and OS and i always choose NOS.


----------



## EJSorona (Mar 22, 2021)

sajunky said:


> I am afraid, nobody will give definitive answer, you will have to listen yourself.
> 
> BF22 is in a different league than Ares. It can be better compared with Soekris. A good tube amp should sound better on Ares in NOS mode, but you must make sure that NOS suit your taste. I think the best is to visit a local shop and try other NOS DAC first.


Sadly, there's no such thing were I live, at least in my city. The audio and musical equipment shops here only have pretty basic stuff.
Besides software EQing, with the BF2 one is stuck with its "house sound" whereas the Ares II has different settings.
Again, I'm not only interested on either for the tube amp, but also for my Stax combo which has a solid state energizer.


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## EJSorona (Mar 22, 2021)

shafat777 said:


> NOS mode till i die. When i originally received the Ares 2, it had the OS mode set and it blew my mind because my Elise never sounded so SS and clean/sterile. Almost too clean and none of my good tubes were doing anything. Once i switched on NOS mode, then everything started sounding the way it should. Every once in a while, when im bored, i try switching between NOS and OS and i always choose NOS.


It has two OS modes. Did you try setting it on slow OS mode. Some find the fast OS mode to be sterile and clean, but in a rather artificial way. Maybe that what you were encountering. Then again, I might be wrong.


----------



## shafat777

EJSorona said:


> It has two OS modes. Did you try setting it on slow OS mode. Some find the fast OS mode to be to sterile and clean, but in a rather artificial way. Maybe that what you were encountering. Then again, I might be wrong.


I just like to run it NOS brother, no oversampling for me. I like to keep it as untouched as possible. But just for the heck of it, i might give your suggestion a try and see what happens. Will report later.


----------



## daytrader

shafat777 said:


> I just like to run it NOS brother, no oversampling for me. I like to keep it as untouched as possible. But just for the heck of it, i might give your suggestion a try and see what happens. Will report later.


Everything is always system dependent as well as type of music.  I found as others have the OS with slow filter to be focused and more 
energetic but in my opinion with less soundstage size.  But certainly if you have not tried it, OS/slow, you need to give it a listen.  The only problem is with the Ares II it‘s a bit of a pain to change filters back and forth quickly, unlike the Pontus II which actually has a NOS/OS button to switch back and forth with just the push of a single button.    Anyway, give OS/slow a shot on all types of music and see if you don’t change your mind, at least some of the time.  😉


----------



## ]eep

EJSorona said:


> Thanks for the input. My tube amp was hand made by a local techinician, or else I would have mentioned the brand name and model.
> Basically it's has two RCA 6080 power tubes and two 6SN7 WGTA JAN Sylvania (black base) pre-amp/driver tubes, ALPS Japan potentiometer, a 150w power supply, Siemens and audiophiler coupling capacitors.
> The amp actually came with a mismatched pair of 6SN7 tubes. Even I could tell that they weren't the same model. The maker of the amp suggested me the CV-181-Z tubes as the best replacement possible for the 6SN7. I went for a matched pair of CV-181, but they were the TII variant made by PSVANE. The Z are made by Shuguang. Like I said before, one of them broke and replaced them for the JAN Sylvania ones. Maybe I'll purchase a single CV181TII in the future and have it matched to the other one. It might work, it might sound like utter garbage or uneven. I can also look for the brown base Sylvania 6SN7, which are considered the best sounding by many, or go for one of the Shuguang ones.
> Those chinese tubes are rather expensive, and importing them is kind of a pain.
> ...


i just have to comment on that tubeamp. Siemens caps makes me think MKP and Audiophiler (the red ones) are like B- (6.5 out of 10) sound quality. Since theze matter just as much as the tubes I really recommend to upgrade those caps to premium grade MKP's or PiO's (vintage? Sprague, Sangamo et al, even Russian). I think 2 are coupling caps and 2 are input caps? I wouldn't focus as much on the tubes with super expensive tubes where the caps are way cheaper and make even more difference. Certainly with those Audiophiler caps (nothing against Chinese caps, I use premium silver color ones, Bosu, that are awesome). 

I use the Ares only in NOS. I never like OS in R2R. Maybe it gets 'bigger' but definitely not more natural. You want want to recalibrate your hearing/expectations. I know most people are coming off D/S kind of sound and think that OS sounds better because it's more alike. But its not natural (it introduces unnatural pre-echo). 

Also the Ares has a killer custom usb input. The only input that I noticed is 'softer' (rolled off) is the coax.


----------



## ]eep

daytrader said:


> Everything is always system dependent as well as type of music.  I found as others have the OS with slow filter to be focused and more
> energetic but in my opinion with less soundstage size.  But certainly if you have not tried it, OS/slow, you need to give it a listen.  The only problem is with the Ares II it‘s a bit of a pain to change filters back and forth quickly, unlike the Pontus II which actually has a NOS/OS button to switch back and forth with just the push of a single button.    Anyway, give OS/slow a shot on all types of music and see if you don’t change your mind, at least some of the time.  😉


hmm. Yes and no. If you think introducing a new kind of temporal anomaly will enhance system synergy, go for it. But IMHO you should have a look at your amp /speakers/HP too then. I just introduced a new kind of amp  (translinear current mode) in my system at half the cost of the Ares and that made a lot more improvement in sound and soundstage. I can keep the Ares in NOS and enjoy a much more natural, wide and deep soundstage. 

Actually, I'm not always using the Ares now but another filterles NOS R2R too. Depending on the source. I have too much gear.


----------



## EJSorona

]eep said:


> i just have to comment on that tubeamp. Siemens caps makes me think MKP and Audiophiler (the red ones) are like B- (6.5 out of 10) sound quality. Since theze matter just as much as the tubes I really recommend to upgrade those caps to premium grade MKP's or PiO's (vintage? Sprague, Sangamo et al, even Russian). I think 2 are coupling caps and 2 are input caps? I wouldn't focus as much on the tubes with super expensive tubes where the caps are way cheaper and make even more difference. Certainly with those Audiophiler caps (nothing against Chinese caps, I use premium silver color ones, Bosu, that are awesome).
> 
> I use the Ares only in NOS. I never like OS in R2R. Maybe it gets 'bigger' but definitely not more natural. You want want to recalibrate your hearing/expectations. I know most people are coming off D/S kind of sound and think that OS sounds better because it's more alike. But its not natural (it introduces unnatural pre-echo).
> 
> Also the Ares has a killer custom usb input. The only input that I noticed is 'softer' (rolled off) is the coax.


That's interesting, ]eep. Never really thought that the caps would be that important. Maybe I should take apart the amp so I can take a picture of the PCB an upload it here. Maybe you can point out which one should be replaced, what are my options so I can see what I can get and, thus, I can ask the technician that built this amp to upgrade it.
I admit that this amp was an affordable option. I originally wanted to get a Woo Audio Wa7 Fireflies, but it was a tad too expensive (and was not available right away, I had to import it and wait like 2 months or so).
Regarding the Ares II, that's the good thing about it, it has options unlike, for example, the Bifrost 2.
Maybe for music it might sound less naturan on OS mode, but a bigger or wider soundstage can make a difference on things like videogames like competitive shooters or story-driven ones that use sound as part of the immersion.


----------



## TheRealDz

I have fond memories of a CD player from about 15 years ago - a Consonance 2.2 Linear.  Here is a review of it that I found, compliments of Google:

http://v2.stereotimes.com/post/the-opera-audio-reference-2.2-linear-cd-player

(Fun fact - I used to write for Stereo Times years ago) 

It was NOS way before NOS was cool, but I believe the real magic behind it was that it was run without a brickwall filter.  If you have ever heard a well-designed crossoverless speaker, it has purity and immediacy that's intoxicating - which the Consonance had in spades. 

My hope is that the Ares has a bit of that magic... 



]eep said:


> hmm. Yes and no. If you think introducing a new kind of temporal anomaly will enhance system synergy, go for it. But IMHO you should have a look at your amp /speakers/HP too then. I just introduced a new kind of amp  (translinear current mode) in my system at half the cost of the Ares and that made a lot more improvement in sound and soundstage. I can keep the Ares in NOS and enjoy a much more natural, wide and deep soundstage.
> 
> Actually, I'm not always using the Ares now but another filterles NOS R2R too. Depending on the source. I have too much gear.


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## sabloke

My Ares II is on its way, should arrive in 48 hours. Can't wait to listen and find out if it bests my RME ADI-2 DAC. My expectations are high


----------



## sabloke

I'd be interested to find out, what would be better, the Venus or the Pontus + Gaia?


----------



## ]eep (Mar 23, 2021)

TheRealDz said:


> I have fond memories of a CD player from about 15 years ago - a Consonance 2.2 Linear.  Here is a review of it that I found, compliments of Google:
> 
> http://v2.stereotimes.com/post/the-opera-audio-reference-2.2-linear-cd-player
> 
> ...


The Opera Audio Linear was high on my wishlist but it was rather hard to get for me then. I got an Mhzs cd33 instead which tossed me into the deep end of dac modifications. If I hadn't I would not have learned as much as I have now so maybe I made the wrong choice but the better one for me. All I have now is a Consonance T988 arm. Opera audio didn't do a great job in distribution and marketing. Unfortunately. But it did set me on the path to the little R2R dac I'm still using now. Which beats the Ares for pure sound quality (not versatility or build quality).

About speakers, the first pair i bought new was crossoverles. Just 1 cap for the tweeter. Then I bought LS3/5a's and after 10y I traded them for Reference3a Master Control which are based on the same principle. Now I'm building my own speakers also trying to keep true to this minimalist approach. Because this immediacy is captivating. So I fully agree.


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## vermaleneric

Hi everyone,
I need your help.
I would like to buy the Denafrips Ares and use my DAP Astell & kern AK 70 as a music source. The idea is therefore that the AK70's DAC stops working to make way for the Denafrips.
Hope you understand my idea.
Do you think this is possible ??
If so, using what type of cable ??
And can you give me a link to what type of cable to use so that I can see it.
Thanks for your help.
Cordially.
Eric


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## sabloke

You need and OTG cable and a regular USB cable, like the one used for printers, to connect your A70 to the Ares. The you need a headphone amp to use it with headphones as the Ares is a pure DAC.


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## vermaleneric

Thank you for your answer.
This cable must therefore have a mini usb side
(AK70 side) and another usb side going into the Ares 2.
Is it correct ??


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## sabloke (Mar 25, 2021)

I think the AK70 end is micro usb and the other end has to be a female USB type A. Make sure it is an OTG cable! Then the other cable is a normal usb printer cable.
 Or use a micro to type B OTG Luke the one in the image and connect to Ares with one cable.


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## vermaleneric

Thank you so much.
Stay safe.
Éric


----------



## ]eep

sabloke said:


> I'd be interested to find out, what would be better, the Venus or the Pontus + Gaia?


I think what you need to decide if, where and why the Gaia would be an improvement? I would say the Venus II is the better choice since the inputs are capable on it's own with the new fifo buffer reclocking. 

Maybe it is because I don't use a computer anymore (with all the pollution over the usb line) or that I started early with quality asynchronous usb but I never saw the need for DDC and still don't. I just never had that 'this is it' moment with DDC that others claim. In fact one of the reasons I bought the Ares II was for the inputs (and they are excellent) but the dac in total is surpassed in audio quality by the little tda1543 dac I already had due to the output stage, despite the simple BB DIR9001 input. That's why I say go for the best dac/power/output of the Venus II. Or just the Pontus II and invest the money elsewhere.


----------



## Guidostrunk

Lolito said:


> Ares 2 is light years ahead of bifrost in SQ. Light years. The schiit dac is a 350€ dac sold for much more. The Ares 2 is a 3000€ dac sold for much less. Now schiit is more accesible, easier to get, closer to americans, 5 years warranty in USA. two colors available. All that great, awesome, amazing and wonderful. And people is very familiar with it and with Schiit. All that is truly wonderful, but they are not comparable dacs, at all.


Crazy hobby for sure. I had both and chose the BF2 after a shootout. My subjective thoughts mirror yours but completely opposite end of the spectrum. 😂


----------



## sajunky

]eep said:


> I think what you need to decide if, where and why the Gaia would be an improvement? I would say the Venus II is the better choice since the inputs are capable on it's own with the new fifo buffer reclocking.
> 
> Maybe it is because I don't use a computer anymore (with all the pollution over the usb line) or that I started early with quality asynchronous usb but I never saw the need for DDC and still don't. I just never had that 'this is it' moment with DDC that others claim.


FIFO reclocking is a partial solution when ground loops leak already inside a DAC.

Ares, Pontus, Venus and even Terminator have no galvanic isolation on USB ports. All will benefit from a DDC that typically comes such isolation. Only Terminator Plus is designed to work without DDC, but I think it will still benefit, similar to Audio GD R-7:


> 2,   USB apply the bidirectional isolator that can transmit the IIS signal to the FPGA processor and receive the clock signal from the FPGA processor, the USB interface without on board data clocks, the signal transmit is much exact, the sound quality get the much improve , similar to the last *generative* R-7 combine with DI-20 (But not DI-20HE) level. *(New Feature)*


I do understand from this a little, more guessing.   It is a designer blog about two features:
1. Galvanic isolation in a previous model R-7HE (with regenerative power supply) vs.
2. Bidirectional USB isolator that synchronise USB transfers with a DAC clock, effectively removing a need for FIFO reclocking. This method was introduced first in DI-20, now implemented in R-7 2021 version.

Conclusion: R-7 2021 model bring performance level to the R-7HE 2020 (regenerative) model paired with DI-20. However it indicate that R-7HE 2020 model when paired with DI-20HE is superior to a standalone R-7 2021 model. It shows a role of DDC.


----------



## commtrd

My Hugo 2 died so I had to get another dac. I had always wanted to try a R2R dac so went ahead and ordered one. This sweet little dac sounds so beautiful. Re-discovering my music. Actually builds in some much-needed timbre and reverb and actual sound stage to my LCD-4z phones. Using my GSX Mini amp. OMG this sounds sweet! I read about the Hugo 2 sounding a little "clinical" and never really realized it until now with listening to this dac.


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## TheRealDz

Wow - interesting to hear! 

I am about to put my Hugo up sale so that I can snag an Ares... 



commtrd said:


> My Hugo 2 died so I had to get another dac. I had always wanted to try a R2R dac so went ahead and ordered one. This sweet little dac sounds so beautiful. Re-discovering my music. Actually builds in some much-needed timbre and reverb and actual sound stage to my LCD-4z phones. Using my GSX Mini amp. OMG this sounds sweet! I read about the Hugo 2 sounding a little "clinical" and never really realized it until now with listening to this dac.


----------



## commtrd

This dac is so highly recommended. In this land of diminishing returns, the money spent on this dac is so totally worth it. 

Only problem now is I really have my eye on an Abyss 1266 Phi TC to complete my end-game setup but it will take a while to make that one happen.


----------



## EJSorona

commtrd said:


> This dac is so highly recommended. In this land of diminishing returns, the money spent on this dac is so totally worth it.
> 
> Only problem now is I really have my eye on an Abyss 1266 Phi TC to complete my end-game setup but it will take a while to make that one happen.


In late December 2020 I was in a similar situation. I was between getting a better DAC (back then I was aiming for the Schiit Gungnir MB) or go for a Stax combo and get the DAC later own. I went for the latter and now saving up for the DAC. I think I made the right choice as the Stax energizer I ordered is now officially discontinued. Hopefully in 30-45 day I will have enough money for the DAC. In the meantime I'm looking for cheaper and faster alternatives.


----------



## sabloke

I like the Denafrips Ares so much that I'm selling my RME ADI-2 and saving money to replace it with Venus within the next 3-4 months. Don't want to stretch to Terminator as my Focal active monitors already sound amazing with Ares and I'm sure Venus would be great for my needs.


----------



## leeperry

been a hardcore Soekris fan for years but this ARES 2 sounds really great, will try to have a review posted shortly


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## mariopoli (Apr 2, 2021)

One of the reviewers in Europe stated the ARES 2 was dry in the mid high end as opposed to wet. Does dry me no frequency range is overemphasized. Don't we want the DAC to be that way? Who wants a colored DAC? Perhaps I don't understand.

I have a Schit Modi Multi Bit. Will I even notice a difference with the ARES 2? I listen to mostly Baroque period music with a Woo WA7 amp.Grado Headphones, Stax headphones and SRM-252s Driver.


----------



## Baten

mariopoli said:


> One of the reviewers in Europe stated the ARES 2 was dry in the mid high end as opposed to wet. Does dry me no frequency range is overemphasized. Don't we want the DAC to be that way? Who wants a colored DAC? Perhaps I don't understand.
> 
> I have a Schit Modi Multi Bit. Will I even notice a difference with the ARES 2? I listen to mostly Baroque period music with a Woo WA7 amp.Grado Headphones, Stax headphones and SRM-252s Driver.


Yeah the Ares II should be quite the jump over Modi MB


----------



## ]eep

mariopoli said:


> One of the reviewers in Europe stated the ARES 2 was dry in the mid high end as opposed to wet. Does dry me no frequency range is overemphasized. Don't we want the DAC to be that way? Who wants a colored DAC? Perhaps I don't understand.
> 
> I have a Schit Modi Multi Bit. Will I even notice a difference with the ARES 2? I listen to mostly Baroque period music with a Woo WA7 amp.Grado Headphones, Stax headphones and SRM-252s Driver.


i suppose 'dry' means no reverb that isn't there (temporal correct). I find the strengths of R2R show particularly well with acoustic music. Like classical music in authentic settings.


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## sajunky (Apr 2, 2021)

]eep said:


> i suppose 'dry' means no reverb that isn't there (temporal correct). I find the strengths of R2R show particularly well with acoustic music. Like classical music in authentic settings.


Something is wrong in his teminology. Lack of colouration, maybe? People like little of warmth, distortions give such effect (even harmonics in particular) if not to much.

On the other side, jitter can cause very unpleasant effects, but I wouldn't call it dry. Sound just not opening up, we can't hear reverbs and many other things in the background, as our brain is not powerful enough to hear through a junk, it is exactly what you say.


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## commtrd

I hear no dryness as defined. In fact quite the opposite actually. I hear substantialy better fleshed-out depth, airiness, reverb, (on recordings mastered thusly) and just overall a more musical presentation overall.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

Dry could also mean overly clinical, which is kinda not what people buy R2R DACs for. No, I have not heard dry meaning not colored. I find my Brooklyn DAC+ a little dry and I have to admit at times it is not so enjoyable. It was designed not to color anything, not to be euphonic, and it succeeded. Sometimes you want an analytical DAC, other times you want a more musical DAC. Depends on what you're listening to and why, along with your own preferences.


----------



## mariopoli

gimmeheadroom said:


> Dry could also mean overly clinical, which is kinda not what people buy R2R DACs for. No, I have not heard dry meaning not colored. I find my Brooklyn DAC+ a little dry and I have to admit at times it is not so enjoyable. It was designed not to color anything, not to be euphonic, and it succeeded. Sometimes you want an analytical DAC, other times you want a more musical DAC. Depends on what you're listening to and why, along with your own preferences.


Thank you for your candid response. How do I know if the best DAC for me is the one straight out of my Apple Computer? I enjoy listening to music and am looking for the most pleasant experience. Perhaps audiophiles are not looking for this and the more expensive DACs are not about the most pleasant listening experience.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

mariopoli said:


> Thank you for your candid response. How do I know if the best DAC for me is the one straight out of my Apple Computer? I enjoy listening to music and am looking for the most pleasant experience. Perhaps audiophiles are not looking for this and the more expensive DACs are not about the most pleasant listening experience.


I think it depends on the person and some people like to have a few kinds of DACs just as they like to have different headphones etc. Some people prefer less analytical and others prefer more. Nobody can tell you what the best DAC is for you, but the differences between DACs aren't night and day so there isn't much chance to buy a DAC you don't like and can't live with- until you have something to compare it to. Usually you notice any difference either when listening side by side and looking for a difference or just over time like I did.


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## spruce (Apr 15, 2021)

Really enjoying my new Ares 2. I purchased the Bifrost 2 first but returned it. I found the build quality not nearly as good, and the clicking between songs the Bifrost 2 makes was really annoying! I did not have the Bifrost long but my recollection was the sound quality was just not as good as the Ares 2 by a good margin IMHO. I also have the Mojo and the Topping D90. In my opinion, the Topping presentation/sound characteristics (I would say a more intentionally enhanced signature) are different enough to own both (if you have the funds) and I really love both. If I had to choose one it would definitely be the Ares 2.


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## cobrabucket (Apr 4, 2021)

Hey guys. I watched a video review about the ARES II recently and was asked by the video creator to share my impressions between the ARES II and my current Schiit Gungnir [A2].
This was my response: "I am still in the process of comparing these 2 excellent DACs. So far I think it is pretty much how I heard it described by reviewers:
The Gumby has very good soundstage and 3D spatial presentation but is a decent amount better on detail retrieval and resolution.
The ARES II has better bass and a wider soundstage, and an equally satisfying, but different 3D spatial feel, but is slightly behind the Gumby in micro-detail and resolution.
I would describe the presentation of both as "holographic," especially compared with DS DACs.
Even though the ARES is wider sounding, it sounds a bit "congested" or "congealed" [for lack of better words] compared with the Gumby. Instruments blend together more on the ARES while the Gumby sounds like the "layering" of the instruments is better.
Obviously, I am over-emphasizing the differences in order to contrast these with each other. They are similar at first listen.
Both are very, very good. And without a doubt there are tracks/albums that I prefer on the ARES, but the Gumby just sounds great with everything, IMO!
And that is only my thoughts on PCM! Schiit DACs don't support DSD  
For DSD I will compare the ARES II to the JNOG and try to test whether I have a strong preference for the ARES.
Although it is a fantastic DAC (especially for the money), I might not be able to justify keeping it in the fold. Essentially, I would have to hear a significant difference in DSD presentation to rationalize keeping it.
TBH though, I wish I could own like 5 or 6 different types of DACs just to be able to use it like a spice or seasoning to "flavor" the sound for different moods, but that seems excessive. Oh well. First-World problems as they say. Guess I should just continue to try and be grateful and enjoy the music..."
Anyways, that's probably my most detailed writing on how something sounds. Hope it's not filled with too many cliche or noobish terms and whatnot.


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## commtrd

My Ares II will have to be pried out of my cold dead hands. I am blown away with how awesome this thing sounds. The airiness and instrumental separation along with improved sound stage compared to the Hugo 2 are just incredible. Good enough for me for sure. Screaming good value for the money spent.


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## commtrd

Interesting mechanical tuning tips for not only Ares II, but all? audio devices? Thoughts?


----------



## mariopoli

commtrd said:


> Interesting mechanical tuning tips for not only Ares II, but all? audio devices? Thoughts?



If it is true that this works I don't think I want to own a device thats electrical performance properties change by adding a washer to the case.


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## commtrd

Seems kinda strange to me. But then audiophiles will defend to death the "fact" that extreme high-dollar connecting cables do in fact make the headphone sound better, so there's that... Having spent a few thousand dollars on upgraded cables, in my experience they did not materially improve SQ much if at all. They do look awesome, have beautiful build quality, all that, but demonstrably better SQ? Not so much. I will try the above mods just for my curiosity. Free, after all. Do I expect to see any difference? No. 

The Ares II is what I would consider to be among the best value components I have ever bot, and it really pains me to say that, with it being built in China and I hate buying anything made in China. I just think that for the money, this dac cannot be beat for performance.


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## leeperry (Apr 7, 2021)

commtrd said:


> Interesting mechanical tuning tips for not only Ares II, but all? audio devices? Thoughts?




There's nothing like a self-proclaimed expert on yt speaking english with a strong accent and making ridiculous claims with the hope that these will act as click baits, is he related to Patrick82? Someone tell him about ESR paper already


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## cobrabucket (Apr 6, 2021)

I still think the Gumby has a slight advantage in detail retrieval, but there are definitely combinations that work better w/ the ARES II. For instance, I prefer the way the Ares sounds through my tube amp [BottleHead Crack w. Speedball]. Really enjoying the DT770 250Ω and HD6XX with this configuration. IMO, the Denafrips sounds more "tubey." Incredibly satisfying bass thump and imaging!


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## commtrd

I was originally going to buy a Gumby. Good to hear it is a solid piece of gear as well. One great thing about Gumby is its made in USA. Supporting american business is always a good thing. The A2 sure seems to have good synergy with the GSX Mini amp...


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## cobrabucket

commtrd said:


> I was originally going to buy a Gumby. Good to hear it is a solid piece of gear as well. One great thing about Gumby is its made in USA. Supporting american business is always a good thing. The A2 sure seems to have good synergy with the GSX Mini amp...


Gumby is AMAZING... Just wish it decoded native DSD like the Denafrips does.


----------



## ]eep

since I am not American it is somewhat bewildering reading how nationalistic (unfriendly) and unaware of the rest of the world they are. Saying 'it's always a good thing to support American business' is kinda strange if you think about it. It is because of American 'elites' that most production was relocated to China and other low wage countries at the cost of American and European workers. They call it globalism, I call it greed. I think it would be better and more 'global' thinking to support *local manufacturing*. 

For me it's just the same to buy an expensive American component (not counting high cost of p&p and added VAT) as a high value Chinese one. American made products have a hard time competing. So do ours, testimony of Metrum Acoustics and Philips audio products. I use a dac with Philips chips next to the Ares. Still competing after all these years. 

The tweaks by that German guy has been posted before. I think it is not really relevant and quite unlikely to do anything much. But i think you should be careful dismissing his free tips since he does have a lot of experience. Resonances can negatively affect performance. Personally I am very sceptical about it. 

I just received the Smsl da-8s with balanced inputs and Infineon chip. It sounds ok as is. But not great. No surprise given the input caps... the famous Muse caps. Really bad in the signal path. I changed out the 2 for the single ended input for proper mkp premium caps. Such an improvement in openness and clarity and freedom of grain. It still has a bit of high emphasis but i noticed it pairs really well with the Ares. 
If you compare the supposed effect of screw tension with the difference and improvement with 2 simple caps. 

What I'm not sceptical about is cables. They really do not need to be expensive, just good quality. I bought a pair of rca's for my tiny tda1543 dac because I need supple cables to let it sitvin place. I chose a woven 8 strand pure silver cable with high quality plugs for $25. They sound really better. Very open and clear. Just incredible. But this is moot if you use bad caps in the signal path. Cables are a minor improvement compared to the major improvement of these caps.


----------



## sabloke

I am about to pull the trigger on buying a Venus II and sell the 2 weeks old Ares II. Somebody, anybody, please talk me out of it 
Quite a few reviews are talking about significant detail retrieval improvement when jumping from Ares to Venus. My monitors are precise and detailed like surgical tools, so I hope the to reap the benefits of spending more than 3X on that DAC... Thoughts?


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## commtrd

For the record, american production capacity was off-shored to facilitate lowering living standards (much fewer good-paying jobs) and it has done that. In pursuit of their one-world order. Anyway, this is not a political science thread so enough of that. Interesting discussion on the caps. Totally agree.


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## commtrd

Where is the "like" button that used to be down on the lower right corner?


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## cobrabucket (Apr 7, 2021)

I come here for audio discussion, not political debates. While I respect everyone's right to an opinion, I feel that this is not the proper channel for that. This is a sanctuary from all that garbage. Let's keep it that way for everyone's sanity. Cheers!


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## cobrabucket

sabloke said:


> I am about to pull the trigger on buying a Venus II and sell the 2 weeks old Ares II. Somebody, anybody, please talk me out of it
> Quite a few reviews are talking about significant detail retrieval improvement when jumping from Ares to Venus. My monitors are precise and detailed like surgical tools, so I hope the to reap the benefits of spending more than 3X on that DAC... Thoughts?


Get a used Gumby instead??


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## sabloke

cobrabucket said:


> Get a used Gumby instead??


Not easy to find one new here down under, let alone used... Plus, the Venus is used, 3 months old, already discounted quite a bit from new!


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## Louisiana

Just ordered a Ares 2 - hope it will be nice pairing with my Denafrips Iris


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## cobrabucket (Apr 7, 2021)

sabloke said:


> Not easy to find one new here down under, let alone used... Plus, the Venus is used, 3 months old, already discounted quite a bit from new!


You never know what you'd find by placing a "WTB" aka "Want To Buy" ad in the classifieds here. That's how I got my Gumby for about $800 US. Worth a shot!
BTW, this is me trying to talk you out of it, as requested.


----------



## Guidostrunk

]eep said:


> since I am not American it is somewhat bewildering reading how nationalistic (unfriendly) and unaware of the rest of the world they are. Saying 'it's always a good thing to support American business' is kinda strange if you think about it. It is because of American 'elites' that most production was relocated to China and other low wage countries at the cost of American and European workers. They call it globalism, I call it greed. I think it would be better and more 'global' thinking to support *local manufacturing*.
> 
> For me it's just the same to buy an expensive American component (not counting high cost of p&p and added VAT) as a high value Chinese one. American made products have a hard time competing. So do ours, testimony of Metrum Acoustics and Philips audio products. I use a dac with Philips chips next to the Ares. Still competing after all these years.
> 
> ...


You are wrong on so many points on how the everyday American thinks! There's a huge difference between the elites and the average Joe.
Stop watching fake news!


----------



## leeperry

My review is up BTW: https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/denafrips-ares-ii-r2r-dac.24901/reviews#review-25646


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## ]eep (Apr 7, 2021)

i agree this is not the place for politics. But what I really wanted to say is that this is also not the place for chauvinism (or patriottisml since many worthwhile contributers here are not American. I think this gives a lot of new and interesting viewpoints and is something to be cherished.

Unfortunately, the situation is, the way the whole world is being held captive makes this hobby trivial. In my workplace I can't order the tools I need because of shortages caused by the lockdown. So when will it be time or place to talk politics when every aspect of out life is affected? I'm not saying I want to because the most important things in life always stir up the most heated and unpleasant conversations (ie politics and religion).

I'm sorry if I upset anyone. I can't think of anything on topic worth talking about at the moment. Just smalltalk doesn't cut it.

I think its quite funny someone feels the need to tell me to stop watching the MSN. I can't stand to watch the 'news' for more than 1 second. Haven't done it in over a year. Been busy studying the matrix for over 10y now. I was only trying to gently promote a slightly wider view of the world and the forces at work behind the curtain. Because it's just too important. It's not just audio that you require a working brain for.

About the Venus vs the Ares: I think there are gains to be had. The Ares has all the groundwork but it can be refined a lot. Imo, humble as always (at least I try) the output could be easily improved upon. As is common practice it has output caps and what I see is Wima MKP10. Those are nice. But as I explained in my previous post, those caps are very important. I asked Alvin about the output stage but he avoided the issue. I will modify it someday but atm it is ok for me as is. And a bit expensive to just go tinkering with.

edit:
I just read leeperries review and saw the photo of the pcb. No sign of red wima caps. Wondering what revision I have. Tiny smd caps is not my thing. The SMSL DA-8S board was hard enough.


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## commtrd

What does the output stage of the Gumby look like? I kind of feel like I should have tried to at least get an audition of a Gumby before deciding on buying a DENAFRIPS but pretty well satisfied with the A2 so that is good.


----------



## Louisiana

Denafrips arrived...


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## Guidostrunk

Louisiana said:


> Denafrips arrived...


Will be interesting to hear your take on the BF2 vs DFA2


----------



## sabloke

Really curious about how much improvement that DDC brings... I will be looking into getting one for my upcoming Venus II but to be honest can't see myself spending Pontus money for the Gaia. Here's hope that an Iris would do and that's just because I use a PC as source.


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## YtseJamer (Apr 8, 2021)

I cannot go back to my Bifrost 2 since I started to use the Ares II with my Verite Closed.  My VC sound so much better with the Ares II in my setup.  The Bifrost 2 is not bad DAC, but to my ears the Ares is ahead of the BF2 for everything I care about when I'm listening to my music.  

Btw, my Bifrost 2 is on sale here if someone is interested.


----------



## sabloke

Play the new Jean-Michel Jarre album, Amazonia, through your Ares II, preferably on speakers. Astonishing imaging, lost for words really...


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## cobrabucket (Apr 10, 2021)

♫


----------



## cobrabucket

YtseJamer said:


> I cannot go back to my Bifrost 2 since I started to use the Ares II with my Verite Closed.  My VC sound so much better with the Ares II in my setup.  The Bifrost 2 is not bad DAC, but to my ears the Ares is ahead of the BF2 for everything I care about when I'm listening to my music.
> 
> Btw, my Bifrost 2 is on sale here if someone is interested.


What amp are you using?


----------



## Louisiana

YtseJamer said:


> I cannot go back to my Bifrost 2 since I started to use the Ares II with my Verite Closed.  My VC sound so much better with the Ares II in my setup.  The Bifrost 2 is not bad DAC, but to my ears the Ares is ahead of the BF2 for everything I care about when I'm listening to my music.
> 
> Btw, my Bifrost 2 is on sale here if someone is interested.


My absolute approval!



Guidostrunk said:


> Will be interesting to hear your take on the BF2 vs DFA2


As written above.
The BF2 is a good DAC, but the Ares2 is amazing!
More details, a much bigger stage, very musical, but those are just my impressions, everyone will feel differently.

As an an example:
ifi Pro iCAN -> BF2 -> Arya: Wonderful.
ifi Pro iCAN -> BF2 -> Empyrean: Not so great, too few details, much too small a stage.

ifi Pro iCAN -> Ares 2 -> Arya: Unbelievable!
ifi Pro iCAN -> Ares 2 -> Empyrean: madness. I've tried a lot of DACs, none of which my Empy played with as it did in conjunction with the Ares 2.

Absolute buy recommendation!
With the Ares 2, I hear details in my favorite albums that I haven't heard before.



sabloke said:


> Really curious about how much improvement that DDC brings... I will be looking into getting one for my upcoming Venus II but to be honest can't see myself spending Pontus money for the Gaia. Here's hope that an Iris would do and that's just because I use a PC as source.


To be honest, I haven't heard an advantage, that's why I'm selling it.
In my opinion, the only reason for a DDC is if you need the I2S or AES connection.


----------



## sajunky (Apr 9, 2021)

sabloke said:


> Really curious about how much improvement that DDC brings... I will be looking into getting one for my upcoming Venus II but to be honest can't see myself spending Pontus money for the Gaia. Here's hope that an Iris would do and that's just because I use a PC as source.


There are no disappointed users in DI-20 thread, but selection is not so simple. DDC opens a path for future upgrades - a real rabbit hole - with better results than expensive cables. To be able to exploit all options, your DAC should support external clock. Without a DAC with external clock feature, there is a clear indication that a version with regenerative power supply is preferable.


----------



## YtseJamer

cobrabucket said:


> What amp are you using?



The Liquid Platinum and the Bryston BHA-1.   I'm also using the Ares II with my Exposure 3010s2 integrated amp.


----------



## simon740

YtseJamer said:


> The Liquid Platinum and the Bryston BHA-1.   I'm also using the Ares II with my Exposure 3010s2 integrated amp.


With 3010s2 ? Is this a good match? Because I have 3010S2 too and looking some good DAC.

regards;
Simon


----------



## YtseJamer

simon740 said:


> With 3010s2 ? Is this a good match? Because I have 3010S2 too and looking some good DAC.
> 
> regards;
> Simon



Yes I'm using the Exposure 3010s2 with my Klipsch Heresy IV.


----------



## leeperry (Apr 9, 2021)

sajunky said:


> There are no disappointed users in DI-20 thread, but selection is not so simple. DDC opens a path for future upgrades - a real rabbit hole - with better results than on expensive cables. To be able to exploit all options, your DAC should support external clock. Without a DAC with external clock feature, there is a clear indication that a version with regenerative power supply is preferable.



DDC is a dead-end compared to built-in USB nowadays: https://www.gearslutz.com/board/showpost.php?p=1788545&postcount=2

And even more so with ARES II that runs XMOS USB & femto clocks internally both for 44.1 & 48KHz multiples.

Whatever you send over S/PDIF, your signal will end up skewed and clock recovery will take place, S/PDIF is a 40yo protocol let it die already.

The only proper way to use S/PDIF is to enslave the transport to the DAC via Word Clock and only send signal to the DAC, and even then whether it'll sound better than proper USB remains to be seen. It will definitely cost a whole lot more and for that matter ARES II doesn't support Word Clock I/O.

I²S was never meant to be transported via cables and there's no official pinout for it so anything goes really, especially when DDC & DAC are from different manufacturers.


----------



## simon740

YtseJamer said:


> Yes I'm using the Exposure 3010s2 with my Klipsch Heresy IV.


Thank you for this info. Im using 3010S2D with Gallus Audio Portato.
But my Topping D30 is not good match with rest of system. 
So thinking about Ares II or even Pontus II.

regards,
Simon


----------



## Louisiana

leeperry said:


> DDC is a dead-end compared to built-in USB nowadays: https://www.gearslutz.com/board/showpost.php?p=1788545&postcount=2


----------



## YtseJamer

simon740 said:


> Thank you for this info. Im using 3010S2D with Gallus Audio Portato.
> But my Topping D30 is not good match with rest of system.
> So thinking about Ares II or even Pontus II.
> 
> ...



If you are coming from the D30, you will be blown away by the Ares II trust me.


----------



## simon740

YtseJamer said:


> If you are coming from the D30, you will be blown away by the Ares II trust me.


----------



## sabloke

YtseJamer said:


> If you are coming from the D30, you will be blown away by the Ares II trust me.


I was blown away coming form RME ADI-2 😊


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## sajunky (Apr 9, 2021)

sabloke said:


> I was blown away coming form RME ADI-2 😊


And I still have D30 in a drawer, it was a complete trash, suspected using fake opamps. A Nobsound 8xTDA1387 replaced D30, a $42 device, go figure.


----------



## sajunky (Apr 9, 2021)

leeperry said:


> DDC is a dead-end compared to built-in USB nowadays: https://www.gearslutz.com/board/showpost.php?p=1788545&postcount=2
> 
> And even more so with ARES II that runs XMOS USB & femto clocks internally both for 44.1 & 48KHz multiples.
> 
> ...


The OP was considering a DAC from a higher price range, my post was specifically supporting this option.

A link is OK, but conclusion is wrong. DDC is not dead, even with S/PDIF, as the external clock allow to cancel all embedded clock jitter. It is reported that AES/EBU connection in a particular configuration sounds even better that I2S. Read following posts. So, AES is also not dead, even using a cheap, hand made cable. Save on cables and plan your purchase wisely.


----------



## YtseJamer

sabloke said:


> I was blown away coming form RME ADI-2 😊



And I was coming from the Bifrost 2 

I'm not going to lie, I can barely hear the difference in between the Bifrost 2 and the DAC of my Node 2i.


----------



## leeperry

sajunky said:


> The OP was considered a DAC from a higher price range, my post was specifically supporting this option.
> 
> A link is OK, but conclusion is wrong. DDC is not dead, even with S/PDIF, as the external clock allow to cancel all embedded clock jitter. It is reported that AES/EBU connection in a particular configuration sounds even better that I2S. Read following posts. So, AES is also not dead, even using a cheap, hand made cable. Save on cables and plan your purchase wisely.



AES is just balanced S/PDIF, no miracle to expect.

Lowering jitter fed to the S/PDIF decoder of the DAC is one thing but then clock recovery will have take place as it's part of the protocol and all IC's arent equal, WM8804 will add 50ps jitter and quite a bit more for DIR9001. It's just an horrid protocol and a complete waste of money, for that matter galvanic isolation also adds jitter and distortion.

I²S was never meant to be transported via cables, AES might very well sound better indeed 

Also, most A-GD racks don't come with a fuse and then you read this kind of story or see them on feebay sold as-is with melted transformer: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/audio-gd-almost-catches-on-fire.855362/


----------



## YtseJamer

New review of the Ares II

https://twitteringmachines.com/review-denafrips-ares-ii-dac-out-standing-in-a-field/


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## sajunky (Apr 9, 2021)

leeperry said:


> AES is just balanced S/PDIF, no miracle to expect.
> 
> Lowering jitter fed to the S/PDIF decoder of the DAC is one thing but then clock recovery will have take place as it's part of the protocol and all IC's arent equal, WM8804 will add 50ps jitter and quite a bit more for DIR9001. It's just an horrid protocol and a complete waste of money, for that matter galvanic isolation also adds jitter and distortion.


I really don't get what you are trying to say. I wrote that with external clock application jitter on the S/PDIF connection is canceled and you are not trying to oppose what I am saying, but come with some irrelevant in this case information.


leeperry said:


> I²S was never meant to be transported via cables, AES might very well sound better indeed


This is a fact, but majority of users claim that I2S sounds better than S/PDIF or USB feeding a DAC directly. It is why Pontus has I2S port.



leeperry said:


> Also, most A-GD racks don't come with a fuse and then you read this kind of story or see them on feebay sold as-is with melted transformer: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/audio-gd-almost-catches-on-fire.855362/


This is not true. A company wouldn't be able to ship a product without a fuse (to most of countries).

Such rubbish is circulating around for some time. In the other thread someone made more resonable claim that a fuse was hidden inside a mains transformer and posted a picture. A picture was clear enough, I pointed to a fuse, nobody did object, including the original poster. Find it out, I am wasting my time for you, I am serious.


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## leeperry (Apr 9, 2021)

sajunky said:


> I really don't get what you are trying to say.



That's a fact. try rereading my reply, posssibly slower. Short story is that you can send 1ps jitter at any S/PDIF receiver but it will have to process clock recovery and this will add 50ps jitter at the very minimum. ARES II seems to send S/PDIF directly to its FPGA chip but don't expect miracles again as TI & Wolfson can't do less than 50ps.



sajunky said:


> This is a fact, but majority of users claim that I2S sounds better than S/PDIF or USB feeding a DAC directly. It is why Pontus has I2S port.



Proper I²S over very short cables will most definitely sound better than S/PDIF.

"USB feeding a DAC directly", wazzat? from a noisy laptop? Nowadays you can get PCIe USB controllers fuelled completely from external low-noise PSU with milspec femto or OCXO clock.



sajunky said:


> Such rubbish is circulating around for some time. In the other thread someone was asking where was a fuse in the Audio GD DAC or an amp and posted a picture. A picture was clear enough, I pointed to a fuse, nobody did object, including the original poster. Find it out, I am wasting my time for you, I am serious.



Coolio, please show the silly padawan that I am where the fuse is in NFB-12 I beg you. Hint: there isn't any


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## sajunky

leeperry said:


> That's a fact. try rereading my reply, posssibly slower. Short story is that you can send 1ps jitter at any S/PDIF receiver but it will have to process clock recovery and this will add 50ps jitter at the very minimum. ARES II seems to send S/PDIF directly to its FPGA chip but don't expect miracles again as TI & Wolfson can't do less than 50ps.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I wrote, I am wasting my time for you, it will be no more response. Begging won't help, I am very, very sorry.


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## leeperry (Apr 10, 2021)

sajunky said:


> I wrote, I am wasting my time for you, it will be no more response. Begging won't help, I am very, very sorry.



What a pity, next time you give lectures at AES or something please let us know so we could learn from your worldwide expertise hopefully. I'm sure even David Griesinger would learn a thing or two but I guess I forgot that USB is just a bunch of 0's and 1's and all USB sources sound perfectly identical, OTOH way obsolete S/PDIF & AES-EBU over non-75/110Ω compliant DIY cables with chinese DDC's are da $hit


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## cobrabucket (Apr 10, 2021)

So... I've been doing some more listening and have decided I need more time with the Ares 2 before parting with it. 
It really does have the best 3D spatial sense and imaging I have heard from a DAC. And that *BASS*. *Whoa!!!* 
I still think the Gumby sounds _slightly_ cleaner and has _slightly _more detail. There are definite combinations of headphones, amps and/or albums that work better with one or the other, but the Ares 2 has a _*really addictive sound*_. Also, somehow most of my music just *sounds BIGGER*. 
I could see me trying to talk myself into keeping both, even though I *know* that's something only a crazy person would do...
*<<Stewie Griffin voice:>> *"Damn you, Denafrips!"


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## sabloke

I part with the Ares 2 just because Venus 2 is taking its place on my desk.


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## sabloke

Test the low end and imaging of your Ares with Tool - Chocolate Chip Trip and tell me what delta sigma DAC can pull it off like that 😊 You're welcome!


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## ]eep

leeperry said:


> That's a fact. try rereading my reply, posssibly slower. Short story is that you can send 1ps jitter at any S/PDIF receiver but it will have to process clock recovery and this will add 50ps jitter at the very minimum. ARES II seems to send S/PDIF directly to its FPGA chip but don't expect miracles again as TI & Wolfson can't do less than 50ps.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


i understand what you say. Or, let's just say I'm trying to absorb. Because I don't really understand jitter or know how to hear/recognize it. Also if you talk about 50ps, isn't that 1000x as fast as 20khz that we can hear. Wouldn't that give the digital signal plenty of time to rise and fall like a good blockwave? 

You say s/p-dif is obsolete. It isn't. It might be old, it might be inferior. But its the most common digital audio interface. For consumers anyway. Also, (and this completely the other way around) it is not just laptops that have usb-out. My dap's have usb out, my phone (which is a computer but not a noisy laptop) has usb-out and my pc with premium parts (not nearly as noisy, EM wise) had a Musiland usb interface that gave a lot better signal. So I never a really bad or noisy signal in my dac. But i don't use that interface anymore, nor any other reclocker, because; 
a- it needed a windows driver (and I'm weened off MS) 
b- I don't hear the need for it. I'm only hearing improvements where it was already good to start with. 

A bit of metacommunication: you might want to hold back on the irony and sarcasm when communication isn't going well. It irritates the other side even more, and for me it makes it harder to discern what you really mean because I'm trying to focus on the hard stuff. Its just confusing where you need to be clearer. We're not all native speakers. 
Also, you generalize and exaggerate a lot. This is also not conductive to a pleasant discourse as it leaves the other side no room at all for his position. The truth usually isn't digital (when there's no well defined 1's and 0'es).


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## quawn0418 (Apr 12, 2021)

sabloke said:


> I was blown away coming form RME ADI-2 😊


Do you still use the rme at all? I have the rme now and while I love it I do want the ares ii also, I ask becuause the rme has the onboard EQ and lifts bass response pretty well, I want the ares ii for my classical vocal stuff, but I can’t see myself committing to it for things like hip-hop or edm, but maybe I’m wrong


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## sajunky

quawn0418 said:


> Do you still use the rme at all? I have the rme now and while I love it I do want the ares ii also, I ask becuause the rme has the onboard EQ and lifts bass response pretty well, I want the ares ii for my classical vocal stuff, but I can’t see myself committing to it for things like hip-hop or edm, but maybe I’m wrong


You can have EQ on PC. There are players with built in EQ, there is a free modular player where you can add EQ of your choice as a plugin. It is called Foobar 2000.

There is no reason for RME having Ares.


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## sabloke

I don't use the RME anymore. Roon would allow me to eq quite nicely but I'm not a fan of altering the sound. Have to admit, the Ares II is not the best for EDM and hip-pop, most probably because of its intimacy and lower detail in the high end but that's what I am hoping to sort out with the Venus II. The RME is a great DAC but unfortunately there's only that much place on my desk and the Venus is a bit of a monster, larger than RME and Ares combined


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## AlanU (Apr 12, 2021)

Have you ever used Audirvana? I am finding that my 2 channel system sounds much better with my latest Audirvana vs my Roon setup.

As any dac will work. Generally speaking I would assume a delta/sigma dac would be an easy shoe in for performance for your EDM and hip hop. The inexpensive Topping D90 MQA will be a great dynamic dac just like your current RME.

Even with USB implemenation. I've often preferred a reclocking DDC like my Mutec MC-3+ USB vs usb implemenation. Much more musical and enjoyable using 24/192.

I know of an individual that has purchased 3 mutec mc-3+USB and daisy chained with denafrips Terminator. This has created NO need for purchasing the Denafrips Terminator plus. Goes to show the power of re clocked signal 3x creating an incredibly precise clock signal vs buying a REF10 single word clock. From my info the mutec also is not limited in versatility vs the Denafrips DDC offering.


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## sabloke (Apr 13, 2021)

I'm looking into getting the Iris DDC and feed the DAC over I2S to clean up my USB PC feed. Gaia is way too expensive and I won't be able to use its clock options anyway. The mid spec Hermes also looks interesting but not sure its worth the extra cash.

Using both Audirvana and Roon. Can't see much difference in sound quality between the two but I have to say Roon is miles ahead when it comes to functionality and fun.


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## AlanU

sabloke said:


> I'm looking into getting the Iris DDC and feed the DAC over I2S to clean up my USB PC feed. Gaia is way too expensive and I won't be able to use its clock options anyway. The mid spec Hermes also looks interesting but not sure its worth the extra cash.
> 
> Using both Audirvana and Roon. Can't see much difference in sound quality between the two but I have to say Roon is miles ahead when it comes to functionality and fun.


Please note that there is no I2S standard at this moment. If you purchase a Denafrips DDC it'll be pinned out for the Denafrips line. TMK it will not work with Aqua dacs or other proprietary pin outs. 

My observation as a cable tweaker is that my personal ears have noted how more obvious changes can be with a reclocking DDC unit. Just understand that in the Denafrips line is that they will change the quality of the reclocking cct. Note the big change between terminator and the new "plus" model is primarily in the input reclock section. The "better" the input "reclock" this is where you improve on the analog sound and reduce digital glare. The Venus ii you are purchasing has emphasis on better tech more similar to the flagship. 

I often would suggest people to consider buying a reclocking DDC before a new dac. It would be interesting to compare a Mutec MC-3+ USB (DDC)  + AresII vs a venus ii with no reclocking DDC or straight usb input  or using your regular non reclocking DDC.  My guess will be that an Ares II user with Mutec will be a shockingly incredible performer reaching closer to a Venus. The power of reclocked , almost jitter free signal is a tremendous upgrade to any DAC on the market. Using an Aqua La scala, I could NOT tolerate using it if I had to use the USB implementation. I require the use of my Mutec MC-3+ (using coax). Even with such a R2R dac it gets substantially better with a treated reclocked signal.  

Interesting you do not hear a difference between Roon and Audirvana. Friends of mine immediately noted how Audirvana is a step ahead in sound quality as far as imaging, soundstage and detail is concerned. I use both so I often use Roon for it's excellent non stop "roon radio" feature.


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## sabloke (Apr 13, 2021)

Thank you @AlanU I am aware of the current I2S lack of standards mess and that's why I will stick to Denafrips gear for now. I would have loved to try a DDC with Ares II but this Venus I'm getting is a couple of months old and the price is too good to give it a miss. I will add a DDC to it soon, no worries


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## sajunky (Apr 13, 2021)

AlanU said:


> Please note that there is no I2S standard at this moment. If you purchase a Denafrips DDC it'll be pinned out for the Denafrips line. TMK it will not work with Aqua dacs or other proprietary pin outs.
> 
> My observation as a cable tweaker is that my personal ears have noted how more obvious changes can be with a reclocking DDC unit. Just understand that in the Denafrips line is that they will change the quality of the reclocking cct. Note the big change between terminator and the new "plus" model is primarily in the input reclock section. The "better" the input "reclock" this is where you improve on the analog sound and reduce digital glare. The Venus ii you are purchasing has emphasis on better tech more similar to the flagship.


PS Audio standard is now widely adopted on new devices from Chineese major brands Denafrips, Audio GD are interchangeable. It is easy to compare pinout to see a differences.

A comment comes out to my mind about reclocking. There is no ideal reclocking, the best is to avoid it. USB is the ideal interface to avoid reclocking due to the asynchronous synchronisation of a transfer speed with a clock on the receiver. Direct linked devices (without a galvanic isolation) can drive a ladder with a fixed frequency DAC clock. It is how my R2R-11 is operating. I don't know why Ares is always doing reclocking, it doesn't have galvanic isolation on the USB port that would complicate things.

TOTL DACs like Terminator+ or Audio GD-R-7 have galvanic isolation on all ports, including USB which is the most difficult to implement properly. All current DDC devices have galvanic isolation on the USB port as a standard. I mention it as it changes rules, in the way that most of TOTL DACs and DDC devices always do reclocking. Do it has to be on the USB port? Not really. DI-20 introduced one year ago has a bi-directional USB isolator which allows to synchronise USB transfers with a fixed frequency internal clock. No PLL is required in such case. It was a successful move and now all 2021 version DACs have also this feature.

Now consider what happen between DDC and a DAC on the I2C interface? It doesn't have a feedback line, a receiving device has an option to accept clock (with a jitter introduced on a cable and a galvanic isolator) as a main clock for conversion or reclock all. In this case reclocking is beneficial. Can reclocking be avoided in such case? It looks like it can. There is a new DAC from Audio GD R-8 MKII, it is said there is no reclocking on both USB and I2S interfaces, system core logic use a large FIFO and a smart 'secret' algorithm that allows to avoid reclocking and PLL.


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## AlanU

Having experience with the Mutec MC-3+ USB audiofile re-clocker, sonically speaking this is a dedicated product to deliver serious sound quality. Just out of curiosity, what re-clocking DDC have you used? My Mutec purchase was rather jaw dropping and I will be adding another to daisychain to redundant clock for even more precision.

I have fellow audiogeek friends that have spent thousands of dollars on passive USB cables. This is where the weakest link of such passive usb cables are NOT known to be excellent noise rejectors. This is where a re-clocking ddc provides "upstream" the re-clocked, ultra low jitter signal. If such input treatment exists internally to a DAC, this is where further sonic enhancement occurs in such product like terminator and terminator plus. 

Real world experience,  a re-clocking DDC is not limited to 1 particular DAC with internal input treatment.  This is where you can own inexpensive dacs such as SMSL M400, Topping D90 MQA and have both simultaneously fed an spdif signal. With a pre-amp selection you can toggle between DIFFERENT multiple DAC flavours without any cable swapping or mess. 

The beauty of such a product is that you can use a non audiofile grade mediocre laptop's usb port filled with jitter. Use a generic functional usb cable (boutique usb NOT necessary) to Mutec. The output of the Mutec will provide spdif  rca/bnc and toslink simultaneously. As Mutec retransfoms the entire digital music data stream, an existing personal laptop can sound as good as a music streamer/server!!!! The beauty is NO gambling on "what is the best usb cable to use???? "

The coax cable is a great cable as it will reject noise quite well. This is where using a mutec DDC,  the coax/toslink is weakest link is between the DDC and DAC. Shorter Coax lengths have been in the past considered a poor alternative. Oddly now as far as coax is concerned, shorter lengths minimize the chances of effecting the contamination of the clock signal. 

Mutec isn't the best in the world DDC. However the clock internally is great. The benefits is that you are treating the signal "upstream". IF by chance you buy a dac with internal input treatment, there will be redundant clocking. For the "normal" dacs out there that are less money and lack "input jitter treatment" this is SUBSTANTIALLY beneficial to have reclocked signal. 

For the ones that own the Topping D90. Once you use a reclocked ddc > coax > D90.  Even the 24/192 will be a shocking improvement and in my case no need for 32 bit or nonsense MQA garbage.  NO tonal changes but you will probably experience darker backgrounds, "ease/analog" of flow of music, improvements in analog realism, refinements in instrument placement. The fact that you get darker backgrounds will suggest lower noise floor. This will then equate to a longer note decay tail (IF PRESENT in the recording) as it was hidden in the noise floor. 

This is my perception and experience with a re-clocking DDC. In my particular case, I cannot remove such a device. For universal application I'd go Mutec before Denafrips DDC. In due time I will own 3 in total to daisy chain. For now I'm just working on another mutec unit to daisychain. 

 I2S is something I'll consider more seriously when a standard is mandated across the board. For now Coax and reclocked digital music data is my go to. Anyone interested in a very nice coax cable.....Tchernov "special" is not expensive and it replaces coax cables that are in the Grand+ range.


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## sajunky

So who is the best in the world of DDC?


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## AlanU (Apr 13, 2021)

sajunky said:


> So who is the best in the world of DDC?


Very subjective.

If you look at the $4500 external word clock from Mutec. This is a clock "only" that has excellent specifications. This is where some people will adapt it to the Mutec MC-3+ but no I2S interface.

I went with the German company due to it's Pro studio reputation. This is where I followed my friends recommendation and now I'm hooked.

For example I have an old 10yrs old Burson DA160. It's a unit that sat under my desk as a paper weight "throw away". For pure entertainment I dusted it off and fed it a coax cable (from my mutec)  and my jaw hit the floor. Mind you I'm using a Furutech DPS4.1 $1200 power cable LOL!!! My point is that the sound quality of this dac was so holographic and "very good/excellent" detail that it's prevented me in buy your every day "mytek brooklyn+/ RME / Toppings D90"   LOL!!! offerings. Very odd that the sound is incredibly musical and detailed like I've ever heard using coax/usb implementation. I typically use my STL tube dac/super rectifier tube external power supply for holographic detail in my 2 channel system. The reason why I tell this story is that the Burson is a 10yrs old, low tech, NON flagship dac I bought for a cheap $1000+ years ago. I truly had no bragging rights to own this average dac. I'll have to say it's meaty, analog presentation is more musical than a more dynamic brooklyn+ or D90. For easy,  non critical listening I cannot even say it's "midfi" it actually is in the realm of much higher end DAC musicality. This made me realize how reclocked source is imperative for analog ease while improving sonics across the board with inexpensive DACS.

In recent time, what separates dacs???? All higher end dacs will now have input jitter treatment by reclocking. The cheaper offerings are "non" treated.

I use a Parasound solid state P6 pre-amp for background music application. Using the Mutec / coax the onboard ESS Sabre 9018 dac has NO digital glare and sounds as good as any other common delta/sigma dac. If I used the Topping D10s as a decent "regular" usb/spdif converter I CANNOT listen to the internal dac as the signal from the toppings is average "normal" and I will hear digititis/digital glare.

If you test your venus ii,  it will sound great. I'll assure you 100% that you have not even tapped into it's full potential until you use a reclocking DDC. This all depends on your components transparency. If I want dynamics I'll use xlr cables......... many ways to skin a cat!!

IMHO it's very difficult to determine a dacs true capabilities until there is a baseline. My baseline is ultra low jitter signal from my Mutec MC-3+. I am getting more info that people are having very good results daisy chaining "double/triple" clocking in redundancy. I know this method  is effective as I am experiencing improvements by double clocking. I am using a Silent angel n8 audiofile grade ethernet switch and with redundancy with two switches I perceive a change in sonics. The F1 silent angel power supply further improves the soundstage. I will say I am now considering the SA N16 combo package unit. I will be doing this with my internal clock from my mutec DDC setup.

Source is everything. People truly need to improve their source upstream. In audio.....Garbage in = garbage out is truth.


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## sajunky (Apr 13, 2021)

AlanU said:


> Very subjective.
> [...]
> IMHO it's very difficult to determine a dacs true capabilities until there is a baseline. My baseline is ultra low jitter signal from my Mutec MC-3+. I am getting more info that people are having very good results daisy chaining "double/triple" clocking in redundancy. I know this is effective as I am using a Silent angel n8 audiofile grade ethernet switch and with redundancy with two switches I perceive a change in sonics. The F1 silent angel power supply further improves the soundstage. I will say I am now considering the SA N16 combo package unit.
> 
> Source is everything. People truly need to improve their source upstream. In audio.....Garbage in = garbage out is truth.


You made good points, but I am thinking that you are over estimating role of reclocking. It appears in your posts all over again, but in the moment you are starting to talk about double/triple reclocking, it gives me an idea. According to a general engineering knowledge, once reclocking is done properly a subsequent daisy chaining of the same operation brings only more noise. It happens as every stage adds a noice of a reference clock oscilator to the input clock, effect is cumulative. It is mathematicaly proven and should be avoided.

I do reject a cause, but your point remains valid, as there is something else that make double/triple reclocking to sound better. When you chain reclocking devices, immunity from ground loops and EMI increase, as each device adds additional level of protection. You have experience with a professional grade equipment, they know how to protect from ground loops properly. It is why such equipment sounds good. Why do you think Audio GD would introduce model DI-20HE at almost a double price of the basic model DI-20? There are identical from the internal operation point of view, the same reclocking (but a hint - only when needed), the same clock option can be ordered. The only difference is in regenerative power supply, it is where a knowledge is, as DI-20HE sound much better. Look around, everyone will tell you the same.


----------



## AlanU

sajunky said:


> You made good points, but I am thinking that you are over estimating role of reclocking. It appears in your posts all over again, but in the moment you are starting to talk about double/triple reclocking, it gives me an idea. According to a general engineering knowledge, once reclocking is done properly a subsequent daisy chaining of the same operation brings only more noise. It happens as every stage adds a noice of a reference clock oscilator to the input clock, effect is cumulative. It is mathematicaly proven and should be avoided.
> 
> I do reject a cause, but your point remains valid, as there is something else that make double/triple reclocking to sound better. When you chain reclocking devices, immunity from ground loops and EMI increase, as each device adds additional level of protection. You have experience with a professional grade equipment, they know how to protect from ground loops properly. It is why such equipment sounds good. Why do you think Audio GD would introduce model DI-20HE at almost a double price of the basic model DI-20? There are identical from the internal operation point of view, the same reclocking (but a hint - only when needed), the same clock option can be ordered. The only difference is in regenerative power supply, it is where a knowledge is, as DI-20HE sound much better. Look around, everyone will tell you the same.



Audio is an interesting first world problem 

Seems that in the Mutec realm, the individuals that pull out substantial money in the REF10 and 1 DDC unit will appreciate daisy chaining 3x MC-3  units even more. This is where thing can get subjective. Fact that folks that pay for REF10 word clock and MC-3+ are not hurting financially and prefer the cheaper 3 x DDC units instead. Something is going on in sonic improvements. 

DI-20HE does appear to be an interesting product. ...I will look into that 

At this moment my gut feeling has approached signal "cleanses" to a higher level. This has been the most incredible improvements in my 2 channel system without buying any new audio components. I'll admit shortly after my serious investment in source. I've now upgraded some gear. My recent discovery is that I'm not quite fully onboard with solid state R2R premium dacs. My current tube dac is just as transparent but more engaging than almost every solid state dac I've owned and tested. Hard to beat 1940's western electric vintage sound for emotional engagement and holographic trio music. For electronic I use a different setup


----------



## TheRealDz

Another great review, by one of the most respected reviewers:

https://twitteringmachines.com/review-denafrips-ares-ii-dac-out-standing-in-a-field/


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## simon740

Thanks. Finally something about Ares II in this thread, not just read about DDC...

regards,
Simon


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## sabloke (Apr 14, 2021)

A DDC like Iris is a pretty inexpensive way to improve your Ares so it punches even more above its weight. Can't see anything wrong learning a thing or two about them, I know I have.


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## AlanU (Apr 14, 2021)

simon740 said:


> Thanks. Finally something about Ares II in this thread, not just read about DDC...
> 
> regards,
> Simon


Simon,

I was fortunate enough to have a friend steer me the right way in serious sonic improvements.

Let's just say you purchased  a re-clocking DDC. This external device can be a stop gap as  you move up the chain in denafrips or any other brand DAC.

What you really need to do is explore and listen with your personal ears. My hunch is majority of the people out there will careless about 32 bit or MQA nonsense after serious source treatment.

If you think your ARES 2 sounds good. You have NO IDEA what you are missing if you feed it a reclocked signal. I always assumed that my setup was fantastic. Now that I've purchased 1 re-clocking DDC, I'm now considering purchasing an external word Master clock. Howerver i must first pruchase my second DDC unit to daisy chain. Mind you the Mutec costs more than the Denafrips ares alone. However if you approach music and be serious about the importance of SOURCE, any dac you purchase will have the higher level data stream. Higher quality signal with precision timing will be the input to the dac. This is where the translation becomes much easier for the dac to translate the original intended recordings from the artist!!! Jitter effects the timing and the D to A conversion uses the time sequence during conversion. Skewed square wave will be translated as Skewed sine wave. This is why reclocked precision feed will have darker backgrounds, more layers, texture, detail, analog ease, instrument separation and digital glare disappears. If a VENUS ii does a good job in input treatment, a re-clocked well spec'd DDC will improve it further. Not fiction......... fact!

Please note, to a degree your DAC is not truly the source. The music "SOURCE" stems from the internet going into your house and the media server/streamer that feeds "DIGITAL" information to your DIGITAL TO ANALOG converter.

IF you have considered an audiograde ethernet switch and re-clocking DDC you are serious about analog ease and true audio performance. Simply purchasing a DAC is IMO wishful thinking as Garbage in = Garbage out.  Purchasing an ARES and fed with a re-clocking DDC will sound better than a stand alone Jitter infested digital signal to a higher line PONTUS. Please do not take my words as fact. I've done plenty of tests and found that jitter = digital glare. Remove jitter and you will have a cheap and cheerful dac turn into a more serious stellar performer.

Amongst my friends I've suggested looking into a DDC before buying a new DAC. All of them are floored with their EXISTING dac and NO change to their audio components. I made them aware to be more serious about source. Source is EVERYTHING! If you achieve "endgame" source quality, concentrate on upgraditis first world problems of buying "better" upgrades DOWNSTREAM.

Visualize a herd of elk foraging and dwelling 1/4 mile in a creek/stream. You are downstream from the elk. Will you drink the water or treat it before you do so? LOL!! The water is your source to replenish hydration.......

Using a boutique $$$$ passive usb cable does not resolve contamination where it happens up stream. An active device intended to preserve the 1's and 0's with precise timing  as intended by the artist is the goal.

If you cannot see my point, DDC is a waste of time


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## simon740

AlanU said:


> Simon,
> 
> I was fortunate enough to have a friend steer me the right way in serious sonic improvements.
> 
> ...


I see your point. Thank you for this infos. But somehow it makes sense that if I buy an Ares II, I won’t buy a DDC for € 1,000 or more. Especially if I don’t use a PC for transport. I have a diy linux player (mpd client).

regards,
Simon


----------



## AlanU

simon740 said:


> I see your point. Thank you for this infos. But somehow it makes sense that if I buy an Ares II, I won’t buy a DDC for € 1,000 or more. Especially if I don’t use a PC for transport. I have a diy linux player (mpd client).
> 
> regards,
> Simon


coax out? or usb? 

This is where DDC product offerings can have USB or COAX in. I do NOT sell products. I just observe the lack of awareness in these re-clocking devices. I had a hard time picking up my jaw off the ground when I introduced it to my 2 channel system. My Mutec MC-3+ can take CD or other Coax input and re transform the entire signal with galvanic isolation (emi removal concept) and create a signal for specific audiofile purposes. Instant venue of analog ease and detail I've never heard from my current system. 

Just be known your Ares II is not fully optimized to it's max potential. This is where a manufacturing company must create an upgrade path for other budget/customer targets. When someone mentions how great their DAC sounds. My only curiosity is the streamer/server or quality of signal they are feeding the dac. 

I can use my ancient Intel i5 HP work laptop jitter contaminated USB port > Mutec > DAC and it will sound just as good as most 2000-4000++++++++ dollars dedicated audiofile grade music streamer/server. Sounds rather bold correct????????

MANY years ago, If you analyze the purpose of music streamers/servers was to eliminate the connection of using consumer grade, jitter contaminated signal from your average laptop/desktop.  Understand your signal is generated from a DDC that re-transforms digital music data  from a "computer". IMO a music streamer/server is the "keep up with the jonses" for features and remote control. With ROON or Audirvana and other products you can do this with a computer. The actual output device will be the DDC NOT a computer streamer/server !!!!! Most people own or have access to a good old capable laptop/Mac mini. Many can save up for a nice reclocking DDC. Not every audio geek is willing to spend 4+++++ grand on an "all in one" music streamer with reclocking input section $$$$. This is where mere mortal souls that are willing to save can purchase insanely capable re-clocking DDC to match counterparts with $$$$$$$ thick wallets paying 3-5K on music streamer/dac setups. The difference is you are NOT limited in the change of DACS as you have an "external" DDC to add on to anything!!

If you think Ares II needs tranparency, it's there but you do not have the means to tap into the airy sound stage and instrument isolation. This is where the jitter confusion effects the digital garbage signal and tries to make sense of it for a audiofile grade sonically pleasing sign wave. Do your research and read up on the "emphasis" of how higher grade dacs have advertisement of how "fantastic" their crystal/clocks are for input jitter removal................ There is an agenda in how DACS are created and lined up.  

Depending on where you live,  you can also "trial" source products like Silent Angel N8 switch with F1 linear power supply/N16 all in one or Uptone EtherRegen in cleansing ethernet source and reclocking for precision and reduction of EMI. I used my ears and did not rely on AudioScienceReviews technical graphs. If you are adventurous you can test yourself. However, when it comes to a dedicated product I have concerns of suggesting Mutec reclocking DDC. Others can chime in other products that have real world experience.


----------



## simon740

AlanU said:


> coax out? or usb?
> 
> This is where DDC product offerings can have USB or COAX in. I do NOT sell products. I just observe the lack of awareness in these re-clocking devices. I had a hard time picking up my jaw off the ground when I introduced it to my 2 channel system. My Mutec MC-3+ can take CD or other Coax input and re transform the entire signal with galvanic isolation (emi removal concept) and create a signal for specific audiofile purposes. Instant venue of analog ease and detail I've never heard from my current system.
> 
> ...


Interesting. Hmm..I will think about that.
Thanks

regards,
Simon


----------



## spruce (Apr 15, 2021)

I see on this thread somebody has used/recommend the Ares 2 with the Monolith LP. I attempted but can barely turn the volume up on the LP. I assume it’s because the output voltage is too high (non-adjustable) on both devices (using fully balanced) and there’s no way to adjust that. If anybody knows how please post!


----------



## elnero

spruce said:


> I see on this thread somebody has used/recommend the Ares 2 with the Monolith LP. I attempted but can barely turn the volume up on the LP. I assume it’s because the output voltage is too high (non-adjustable) on both devices (using fully balanced) and there’s no way to adjust that. If anybody knows how please post!


Are you using balanced? If so, try single-ended.


----------



## sabloke

Ares II now sold, listened to it until it was picked up. Back to RME ADI-2 and music sounds good but somehow lifeless... My Venus is a few days away, can't wait to get back to R2R magic.


----------



## gto88

sabloke said:


> Ares II now sold, listened to it until it was picked up. Back to RME ADI-2 and music sounds good but somehow lifeless... My Venus is a few days away, can't wait to get back to R2R magic.


For  one second, I thought you dislike AresII, but on contrary, you upgrade to Venus.
Look forward your impression of this upgrade.


----------



## sabloke

Oh no, I believe the Ares is fantastic, especially at that price!


----------



## ]eep

following the analogy, isn't a DDC - exactly- filtering the water downstream? Why not really start at the source and ditch that crappy pc. I use a €70 dap that gives perfect dsd. Or a server (Smsl DP5, also fine).


----------



## sabloke

What makes you think a cheap DAP, or any DAP for that matter, has better USB than a PC?


----------



## Louisiana (Apr 16, 2021)

sabloke said:


> What makes you think a cheap DAP, or any DAP for that matter, has better USB than a PC?


It's not about better or worse, it's about the disturbances that get into the USB port during PC operation - that's why many prefer a DDC, if only because of the galvanic isolation.

I use a Raspberry Pi4 with Volumio, from which it goes to a Denafrips Iris, and from there via SPDIF to the Ares2 - brilliant sound quality, no need to start my PC for listening to music.


----------



## sabloke

And the Raspberry Pi is not a PC of sorts? If you use it without an audiophile add-on card the USB output is arguably worse than a regular PC'.


----------



## Louisiana

sabloke said:


> And the Raspberry Pi is not a PC of sorts? If you use it without an audiophile add-on card the USB output is arguably worse than a regular PC'.


Of course you're right, but there are no parts that cause unrest - fan, hard drive, graphics card, ...
I am very satisfied with this solution and could not find any difference in sound to much more expensive devices.


----------



## Louisiana

This is a streamer, for 1000€, based on simple RPi4 
https://magnahifi.com/mano-ultra-music-streamer-high-res/


----------



## sabloke

I use a Lenovo Thinkcentre m75q out of convenience, since it is already on my desk to use for work and browsing. Sound quality is OK but I believe a DDC could help. A streamer of any kind would be yet another thing on my desk, so not that keen to get one. Plus I love the Roon experience on a big screen!


----------



## Louisiana

sabloke said:


> Sound quality is OK but I believe a DDC could help.


 
Then try it out.
In my opinion, the only real thing in hi-fi is - if something interests you, give it a try


----------



## godmax

If you have USB noise and/or ground loop issues and want to use USB as input for your DAC you can use a galvanic isolator.




I do use the Intona 7055-C, that solved all my groud loop induced issues hearing the USB/CPU noise (high frequency noise that was modulated when the mouse was moved) from my PC in the Questyle headphone XLR output (only on right channel) when RCA was connect to external AMP.



DDC is maybe usefully when you want to change from USB to something else, but otherwise the isolator gets the job done, since flipping bits due to clock scew will not happen on USB.

...and btw. my Ares II still sounds great! Even I also got the Musician Pegasus (Ares II clone/mod) now, I will keep the Ares II.


----------



## simon740

godmax said:


> If you have USB noise and/or ground loop issues and want to use USB as input for your DAC you can use a galvanic isolator.
> 
> I do use the Intona 7055-C, that solved all my groud loop induced issues hearing the USB/CPU noise (high frequency noise that was modulated when the mouse was moved) from my PC in the Questyle headphone XLR output (only on right channel) when RCA was connect to external AMP.
> 
> ...


Very useful. Thank you.

regards,
Simon


----------



## sajunky

sabloke said:


> And the Raspberry Pi is not a PC of sorts? If you use it without an audiophile add-on card the USB output is arguably worse than a regular PC'.


This is true. Rpi till version 4 had nonstandard USB port. I don't think software was ever fixed and whether it worked in the optimum mode. Will see what Rpi4 brings.


----------



## sajunky

godmax said:


> If you have USB noise and/or ground loop issues and want to use USB as input for your DAC you can use a galvanic isolator.
> 
> I do use the Intona 7055-C, that solved all my groud loop induced issues hearing the USB/CPU noise (high frequency noise that was modulated when the mouse was moved) from my PC in the Questyle headphone XLR output (only on right channel) when RCA was connect to external AMP.
> 
> ...


I see two problems in this setup. First, Intona do isolation on the USB side, it is very complicated job, can easily lead to incompatibility issues. These issues where present in previous attempts giving not good reputation for such devices. Secondly, for audio better use USB 2.0 hub, it gives less high frequency noise. In this case a hub with multiple transaction translator, for a single device attached any USB 2.0 hub is fine. A mouse interference would be fixed with a simple solution: ferrite clamp.

Yip, DDC is most useful when converting to I2S, Ares do not have.


----------



## AlanU

godmax said:


> If you have USB noise and/or ground loop issues and want to use USB as input for your DAC you can use a galvanic isolator.
> 
> I do use the Intona 7055-C, that solved all my groud loop induced issues hearing the USB/CPU noise (high frequency noise that was modulated when the mouse was moved) from my PC in the Questyle headphone XLR output (only on right channel) when RCA was connect to external AMP.
> 
> ...


Such galvanic isolation hubs have been available but seldom receive such prized following as re-clocking DDC. 

I'll assure you that once you use such a DDC, you will have great difficulty settling with USB. Not a matter of Skewing clock, it's providing  a precise clock  that the computer/streamer should provide with no jitter. In real world it' unlikely to have such a jitter free feed via USB.  That "HUB" does not appear to retransforms the square wave from the noisy data/jitter input from your computer/streamer. 

The comparison is certainly not apples to apples. 

The hub simply appears to be a "clean" power replacement unit. Galvanic isolation helps with the reduction/elimination of EMI. 

I assume the next phase in the audio world is to have hardcore reclocking of a streamer output within affordable means. 

It'll be extremely difficult to get rid of such DDC once you purchase one....... I know many that are fully agreeing with such comments I make.


----------



## ]eep

sabloke said:


> What makes you think a cheap DAP, or any DAP for that matter, has better USB than a PC?


Thank you for noticing that I use my ability to think. 

I notice a lot of implied opinions in that question that makes it hard for me to reply. I don't use a 'cheap' dap, it's just doesn't cost a lot of money. It is better because it is made for a purpose. And because it works off a battery. And it has no moving parts so it is dead silent. It just delivers the data to usb (or coax) without a thousend other processes running in the background. The OS is compiled just for that purpose. Just like I use a Japanese 64 layers hammered nakiri to cut my onions on a big cutting board in the kitchen and not my swiss army knife. I can slice a pound of them waferthin without 1 tear. That nakiri is simple but refined. And holy, ie. made for one purpose. 

My DP5 (would that be 'digital player'? that I bought after the Tempotec) reads sd- card, HD, network, BT etc and has it's own dac. So data is transported internally (not saying there's no jitter at all!) or to an external dac in whatever tickles your fancy (including i²s which the Ares doesn't have) but I find usb works best. So thats my choice and my preference. 

Furthermore it is not just my belief or idee fixe. I've been in audio for 4 decades almost and actively listen to music. I'm not just playing some tunes while I'm at my desk. That little Tempotec pushing DSD is simply the best source I ever used. Besides vinyl that is (and a lot of them aren't better) and my android phone which is almost the same. CD isn't better, android tv is not better, i don't even use a pc anymore (and I wouldn't hook that up to my stereo anyway because it's just plain noisy, in dB). Maybe reel to reel would be better but i don't want it because it's bulky and expensive.


----------



## ]eep

if anyone is still on the fence whether they want MQA or feel left out with the Ares, here's a clip of a guy who managed to shoe in test sounds into his 'indie' recording publications on Tidal. This way he could test what MQA is really doing and if its worth your money. This will cure you...


----------



## sabloke

On the fence? Not anymore. Just cancelled my Tidal subscription and joined on Qobuz. It sounds great with any DAC, not only with the ones that can solve puzzles and unfold origami while playing, you know, music 😂


----------



## Coztomba

Wow.  I just noticed Qobuz went live in Aus and NZ just recently. Time to move over!


----------



## AlanU

sabloke said:


> Ares II now sold, listened to it until it was picked up. Back to RME ADI-2 and music sounds good but somehow lifeless... My Venus is a few days away, can't wait to get back to R2R m


Did you get the Venus yet?


sabloke said:


> And the Raspberry Pi is not a PC of sorts? If you use it without an audiophile add-on card the USB output is arguably worse than a regular PC'.


I have a bunch of Pi3's in my home but it's not ideal for audio due to a shared bus. 

I will have to say I am not adventurous in going with a pi streamer. However I have a gut feeling that feeding a Pi4 with a linear power supply and taking that usb port's signal and feeding a re-clocking ddc to be as good as a $$$$$$ streamer.

If you have Qobuz I'd suggest spending the money on ROON. I have been resistant but now after using Roon Radio.....OMG I cannot stop playing music. Even though I still feel my Audirvana software sounds better, I still use roon for it's incredible radio. Grab your favourite artist and it will hunt for similar styles. 

Unfortunately I am stuck with Tidal due to the use of Audirvana and Roon. 

Today I got my 2nd Mutec unit so I'm essentially feeding jitter free signal to a 2nd unit. I do not have such testing equipment but I am hoping Tidals garbage MQA and fake lossless feed will have some removal of this square wave ringing. This is purely my speculation and wishful thinking. However, #2 mutec daisy chained is no joke or justification, it's pure elevation of SQ vs using just one unit.


----------



## sabloke

AlanU said:


> Did you get the Venus yet?
> 
> 
> If you have Qobuz I'd suggest spending the money on ROON. I have been resistant but now after using Roon Radio.....OMG I cannot stop playing music. Even though I still feel my Audirvana software sounds better, I still use roon for it's incredible radio. Grab your favourite artist and it will hunt for similar styles.
> ...


Not yet, it is transit for the next few days still... Hope to get it before the next weekend.

Using Roon and loving it. Works great with Qobuz, too. To my ears, Qobuz sounds better than the super-duper-abracadabra MQA fairy dust sprinkled Tidal. Since I quit Tidal I don't feel like the weird  kit that does not have the right toy to play with the rest of the squad, as there's no MQA hardware required for Qubuz


----------



## spruce

elnero said:


> Are you using balanced? If so, try single-ended.


Thanks. Although, the LP manual recommends using balanced for best performance.


----------



## sabloke

Got my Venus II yesterday. I have to say, loved the Ares II to bits but if that one's a 10, the Venus is a 17, at least! Wider stage, more detail, 3d positioning and holographic presentation, all cranked up to amazing levels. I am talking about speakers listening, didn't get to plug in my cans or IEMs yet because this is just so addictive. Can't stop listening, anything I play seems like a new song, with voices and instrumental details I had no idea are there, and that in songs I have been listening to for decades. Great job, Denafrips!


----------



## TheRealDz

I got my Ares, and it is the real deal.  I enjoy it immensely more than my previous Chord Hugo (which I just sold).  Exquisite layering and massive soundstage.  I now "get" the buzz around R2R - only in its absence of artificial edge, did I realize that edge existed.  It is just so damn engaging...


----------



## arar

Anyone here compared the Ares to Schiit's Bifrost 2? I'm thinking of getting a Jot 2 and one of these supposedly great sounding R2R DACs as my end-game setup, and Bifrost and Ares are the only ones I know of that are in my budget. Currently leaning towards the Bifrost since it'd stack very neatly with the Jotunheim, but I'd be interested in hearing comparisons. Would be using these with my ZMF Aeolus, some earbuds and speakers, aiming for a warm, punchy, thick, welcoming sound.


----------



## YtseJamer

https://twitteringmachines.com/hifi-bargains-denafrips-ares-ii-dac/


----------



## YtseJamer

My setup is on the Denafrips website this week.

https://www.denafrips.com/single-post/ares-ii---liquid-platinum---zmf-verite-closed


----------



## Guidostrunk

arar said:


> Anyone here compared the Ares to Schiit's Bifrost 2? I'm thinking of getting a Jot 2 and one of these supposedly great sounding R2R DACs as my end-game setup, and Bifrost and Ares are the only ones I know of that are in my budget. Currently leaning towards the Bifrost since it'd stack very neatly with the Jotunheim, but I'd be interested in hearing comparisons. Would be using these with my ZMF Aeolus, some earbuds and speakers, aiming for a warm, punchy, thick, welcoming sound.


Had the Ares for about 7 months and got the BF2 in and spent a week with both. I no longer have the Ares. Personal preference. Both are great dacs and you'll find others that prefer the Ares.


----------



## arar

Guidostrunk said:


> Had the Ares for about 7 months and got the BF2 in and spent a week with both. I no longer have the Ares. Personal preference. Both are great dacs and you'll find others that prefer the Ares.



Cool! Could you describe the sound signature differences or what sort of sound you tend to prefer?


----------



## Guidostrunk

arar said:


> Cool! Could you describe the sound signature differences or what sort of sound you tend to prefer?


To my ears the Ares is smooth , airy , with a warm laid-back sound signature in comparison to the BF2. Which is articulate, very dynamic, with great impact and slam. The BF2 is more visceral throughout the FR. 
Imaging on BF2 is better layered with a greater sense of depth and realism to the music. 
Soundstage wise the Ares may seem like a wider presentation but with critical listening the BF2 projects that same width but it's height and depth are equal to that width which gives it a more holographic sound. Notes Image bigger(taller and deeper) in the same spot as the Ares giving it what some would call an intimate sound. 

They're both great dacs. I just prefer a more lively, edge of your seat type sound which is why I chose the BF2. 
To sum it up. 
The Ares is like listening to beautifully recorded music.
The BF2 is like you are the live venue being recorded. You are there. 

With that said. This is just another person's subjective opinion. You may hear it differently. 

Cheers


----------



## Louisiana

What really bothers me about the Ares2 is that you can't use RCA & XLR together.
I have now ordered this one:
https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B07D7P7366/ref=ppx_od_dt_b_asin_title_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

If that doesn't work, the Ares2 will unfortunately have to go.
I need XLR for my SS AMP, and RCA for my Tube AMP.
I currently have my SS Amp on the Ares2 and my Tube Amp on the Hiffiberry, but that's not the point.


----------



## arar

Guidostrunk said:


> To my ears the Ares is smooth , airy , with a warm laid-back sound signature in comparison to the BF2. Which is articulate, very dynamic, with great impact and slam. The BF2 is more visceral throughout the FR.
> Imaging on BF2 is better layered with a greater sense of depth and realism to the music.
> Soundstage wise the Ares may seem like a wider presentation but with critical listening the BF2 projects that same width but it's height and depth are equal to that width which gives it a more holographic sound. Notes Image bigger(taller and deeper) in the same spot as the Ares giving it what some would call an intimate sound.
> 
> ...



Thanks a lot for the impressions, very informative! It sounds like both DACs have aspects to their sound signatures that I tend to enjoy, making the decision a bit harder, but I don't really do long music listening sessions on my desk (usually an hour tops) so maybe the more impactful and engaging BF2 would suit me better, at least for the time being. I do spend a lot of time sitting on my computer with headphones on, but I'm usually gaming or watching Youtube videos or something, and I doubt DACs make a ton of difference for that sort of stuff.


----------



## sajunky

Guidostrunk said:


> To my ears the Ares is smooth , airy , with a warm laid-back sound signature in comparison to the BF2. Which is articulate, very dynamic, with great impact and slam. The BF2 is more visceral throughout the FR.
> Imaging on BF2 is better layered with a greater sense of depth and realism to the music.
> Soundstage wise the Ares may seem like a wider presentation but with critical listening the BF2 projects that same width but it's height and depth are equal to that width which gives it a more holographic sound. Notes Image bigger(taller and deeper) in the same spot as the Ares giving it what some would call an intimate sound.
> 
> ...


Did you hear Ares in NOS mode?


----------



## daytrader

sajunky said:


> Did you hear Ares in NOS mode?


For me NOS is the setting I prefer most of the time as well.  OS will give you more snap on dynamics but also introduce some upper frequency edge that can be fatiguing over a long listening session.


----------



## ]eep

Guidostrunk said:


> To my ears the Ares is smooth , airy , with a warm laid-back sound signature in comparison to the BF2. Which is articulate, very dynamic, with great impact and slam. The BF2 is more visceral throughout the FR.
> Imaging on BF2 is better layered with a greater sense of depth and realism to the music.
> Soundstage wise the Ares may seem like a wider presentation but with critical listening the BF2 projects that same width but it's height and depth are equal to that width which gives it a more holographic sound. Notes Image bigger(taller and deeper) in the same spot as the Ares giving it what some would call an intimate sound.
> 
> ...


what you describe is in my experience the effect of an extra layer of amplification or buffer. Really not what I would consider as better but more. Like an unplugged session versus amplified instruments. Bigger is most of the time the effect of smeared timing, feedback and impedance mismatch.


----------



## Guidostrunk

]eep said:


> what you describe is in my experience the effect of an extra layer of amplification or buffer. Really not what I would consider as better but more. Like an unplugged session versus amplified instruments. Bigger is most of the time the effect of smeared timing, feedback and impedance mismatch.


No idea what you're talking about but thanks for the input. Lol


----------



## ]eep

that actually makes perfect sense. 

In other words, the Ares is more true to the original than the Bf2 only not as obvious. It's like louder music sounds better hence the loudness war. The thing is you can add an extra compression or amplification to a true weak signal but you can't get the original dynamics back once its been processed. Once information has been lost it's gone. With the Ares you've vot something to work with to suit your taste, with the BF2 you've set your path to boldly go where so many have gone before. 
Your personal taste has been built in to the Bf2 because of the output stage, with the Ares you can still go wherever you like; it has a minimal output stage for best quality and versatility while saving costs.


----------



## Guidostrunk

]eep said:


> that actually makes perfect sense.
> 
> In other words, the Ares is more true to the original than the Bf2 only not as obvious. It's like louder music sounds better hence the loudness war. The thing is you can add an extra compression or amplification to a true weak signal but you can't get the original dynamics back once its been processed. Once information has been lost it's gone. With the Ares you've vot something to work with to suit your taste, with the BF2 you've set your path to boldly go where so many have gone before.
> Your personal taste has been built in to the Bf2 because of the output stage, with the Ares you can still go wherever you like; it has a minimal output stage for best quality and versatility while saving costs.


Um... I really don't think it's that complicated for most. One prefers the other over the other. Occam's razor.


----------



## sabloke

I have never listened to BF2 but to me it looks like the sound is along the way of the Venus when compared with Ares. Not surprising when one looks at the power supply side on the Venus, that is much more of what Ares has. Then there's the decoding part, but I would think that's adding more detail and not that much responsible for the extra kick, sound stage and dynamics. Explain that.


----------



## sajunky (Apr 27, 2021)

sabloke said:


> I have never listened to BF2 but to me it looks like the sound is along the way of the Venus when compared with Ares. Not surprising when one looks at the power supply side on the Venus, that is much more of what Ares has. Then there's the decoding part, but I would think that's adding more detail and not that much responsible for the extra kick, sound stage and dynamics. Explain that.


BF2 to Venus? No way, sorry. It is a good DAC, but with different credentials. And a ladder is not a pure R2R, but a hybrid type (better for static measurements, different for dynamic response). A strenght of Ares is in NOS. BF2 can beat Ares with a more catching DSP filtering, but can you switch of all unneccessary stuff on BF2?

BF2 can sound better than Ares, as it seems has galvanic isolator on USB, so in a specific situations it will benefit, but isolator adds jitter.


----------



## Guidostrunk

It's hilarious that the BF2 and Ares comparison is being made so complicated. I wouldn't give a Schiit if the BF2 was made with coat hangers inside and the Ares with tin foil inside. Really people, at the end of the day your ears will tell you what you like when jammin. Lol. It's not that complicated. They're both fantastic dacs. There's people out there that prefer far less expensive and far more expensive. The BF2 and Ares are the best bangs for your buck. Most people would stop at either and call it good. Seems like people are getting offended because another dac is preferred to the Ares. Who cares? Like what you like and enjoy the music!


----------



## YtseJamer

I agree with @Guidostrunk.  I prefer the Ares II over the BF2, but both DACs are very good.


----------



## Guidostrunk

YtseJamer said:


> I agree with @Guidostrunk.  I prefer the Ares II over the BF2, but both DACs are very good.


See how uncomplicated this post is? Thanks bro!


----------



## TheRealDz

Well, form factor may make a difference for some people.  My Ares barely fits on my desk, and kinda looks ridiculous under my Jot2 (much larger).  A matching BF2 sure would have been better in that regard.


----------



## arar

TheRealDz said:


> Well, form factor may make a difference for some people.  My Ares barely fits on my desk, and kinda looks ridiculous under my Jot2 (much larger).  A matching BF2 sure would have been better in that regard.



As dumb as it might sound to some, this is kind of the main reason why I'm considering Bifrost 2 over Ares right now. I've had the Magni 3 and Topping D10 for the longest time and I absolutely hate how unstackable those two are lol. They don't fit together in any way. So I've just hidden the D10 under my desk. But at least the Ares is the bigger one of the two? So it's a bit better than the D10/Magni situation, where the Magni is the smaller one lol.


----------



## TheRealDz

My Ares does double duty;  it is part of my living room system when I want to do critical listening (and when I am motivated enough to unplug it and move it), but it is part of my desktop system most of the time.  I have limited space on my desk, and while the Ares is of normal size for a traditional stereo component, it is huge for a desktop component (very deep). 

The Ares exceeded my expectations sonically, but I wish I could have heard the BF2; its form factor admittedly is so much better for me, that I would have been tempted to go with it if I liked its sound... 



arar said:


> As dumb as it might sound to some, this is kind of the main reason why I'm considering Bifrost 2 over Ares right now. I've had the Magni 3 and Topping D10 for the longest time and I absolutely hate how unstackable those two are lol. They don't fit together in any way. So I've just hidden the D10 under my desk. But at least the Ares is the bigger one of the two? So it's a bit better than the D10/Magni situation, where the Magni is the smaller one lol.


----------



## Coztomba

arar said:


> As dumb as it might sound to some, this is kind of the main reason why I'm considering Bifrost 2 over Ares right now. I've had the Magni 3 and Topping D10 for the longest time and I absolutely hate how unstackable those two are lol. They don't fit together in any way. So I've just hidden the D10 under my desk. But at least the Ares is the bigger one of the two? So it's a bit better than the D10/Magni situation, where the Magni is the smaller one lol.


 
It really doesn't.  I read and read comparing the BF2 vs Ares II and in the end I got the Ares II because of form factor as well. It just fit better with my stack at the time.  For every person who liked the BF2 more there was another who liked the Ares II.  There was nothing to choose between them so form factor was the tie breaker.


----------



## TheRealDz

One more important point is that I found the Ares' USB input to be a bit unstable.  It would lose connection and start to go "digital" perhaps once an hour, or if I did too much fast-forwarding in a song.

On a lark, I snagged a closeout Schiit Etyr USB to coax DDC last week, and get improved sound without a single dropout.  I believe that the BF2 has an even better USB implementation than the Etyr, so that could be a benefit if you use a USB source.


----------



## godmax

TheRealDz said:


> One more important point is that I found the Ares' USB input to be a bit unstable. It would lose connection and start to go "digital" perhaps once an hour, or if I did too much fast-forwarding in a song.


I got the Ares 2 since 2019 and from my experience the custom USB implementation is even better and more stable that most other off-the-shelf USB implementations of my other DACs. Did you check if this issue is maybe related to your PC/Steamer? Or did try to connect with a DAP to the USB if you get the same issue there?


----------



## TheRealDz

I never had the issue with my Hugo or SU-8V2. It was easily rectified by pausing the music, but no amount of tweaking could fix it permanently.  (buffer? driver issue? word length? USB cable?) 

I was willing to put up with that inconvenience to get the massive sonic improvement the Ares brought.  But for the $99 I spent on the Eitr, it was a massive win;  clear sonic improvement, plus rock-solid stability. 




godmax said:


> I got the Ares 2 since 2019 and from my experience the custom USB implementation is even better and more stable that most other off-the-shelf USB implementations of my other DACs. Did you check if this issue is maybe related to your PC/Steamer? Or did try to connect with a DAP to the USB if you get the same issue there?


----------



## sajunky (Apr 28, 2021)

TheRealDz said:


> I never had the issue with my Hugo or SU-8V2. It was easily rectified by pausing the music, but no amount of tweaking could fix it permanently.  (buffer? driver issue? word length? USB cable?)


In a normal situation errors on USB transmission are very rare.

Breaking data stream is typically ground loops problem. I assume you use bitperfect transfers (avoiding system mixer). I pointed before as a one possibility where BF2 can sound better. You deal with ground loops and EMI using a proper cable layout, schielded power cables, ferrite clamps on the USB cable (or a better quality - and shorter - cable). Reversing a plug can help too (if there is any two-prong plug).

There are mods for Ares posted in this thread, possibly dealing with ground loops, I didn't check.


----------



## daytrader

TheRealDz said:


> My Ares does double duty;  it is part of my living room system when I want to do critical listening (and when I am motivated enough to unplug it and move it), but it is part of my desktop system most of the time.  I have limited space on my desk, and while the Ares is of normal size for a traditional stereo component, it is huge for a desktop component (very deep).
> 
> The Ares exceeded my expectations sonically, but I wish I could have heard the BF2; its form factor admittedly is so much better for me, that I would have been tempted to go with it if I liked its sound...


Why not look at the AQ Dragon Fly for your desktop dac and leave the Ares plugged into the living room system for more convenience?  The Dragon Fly is a very competent performer for most desktop system, not to mention the space saver benefit.   Plus you avoid unplugging the Ares in/out.


----------



## Louisiana

To solve the problem that RCA & XLR can't use together, I recommend this:


----------



## TheRealDz

I have a Dragonfly Red, but I think it is several notches below the Ares.  But that is a good reminder that I need to sell it 🙄




daytrader said:


> Why not look at the AQ Dragon Fly for your desktop dac and leave the Ares plugged into the living room system for more convenience?  The Dragon Fly is a very competent performer for most desktop system, not to mention the space saver benefit.   Plus you avoid unplugging the Ares in/out.


----------



## daytrader

TheRealDz said:


> I have a Dragonfly Red, but I think it is several notches below the Ares.  But that is a good reminder that I need to sell it 🙄


Glad I was of some help!  😏


----------



## ]eep

or even better; use the E1DA powerdac on the desktop.


----------



## TheRealDz

Ha!  Good memory, Jeep!  I need to remember to sell that one too 🙄🙄



]eep said:


> or even better; use the E1DA powerdac on the desktop.


----------



## Coztomba

Louisiana said:


> To solve the problem that RCA & XLR can't use together, I recommend this:


+1.  Also using one of these for switching between gear and it's been wonderful.


----------



## ]eep (Apr 30, 2021)

Louisiana said:


> To solve the problem that RCA & XLR can't use together, I recommend this:


that is a good solution (for some people who just want to switch). Very elegant and simple if you want to use balanced or convert to rca without soldering custom cables. I mentioned the use of a passive preamp before I think. I use a (Douk/) Little Bear VU1 for switching (it has relais). Very good quality, even with remote. Only I need 2 outputs simultaneously. So I made an extra for the subwoofer. That took me 2 resistors, 2 rca's and 15 minutes. Little Bear (sold through Douk who also sells others) makes a lot of cheap and cheerful and pretty decent quality stuff.


----------



## Kromen

About this Ares II limitation that RCA & XLR can't use together, how does it affects ? does it just reduce de output voltage?


----------



## TDinCali

Hi Guys,

I own an Ares II that I'm trying to use via USB connected to my iphone to play Tidal. My phone gives me a USB error and locks up. Changing cables hasn't fixed the problem. Both cables and iphone work fine with X1 Audio dac and Woo WA8. Does anyone have any insight? Is this a Denafris USB issue? It will work with my Macbook pro.


----------



## sajunky

TDinCali said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> I own an Ares II that I'm trying to use via USB connected to my iphone to play Tidal. My phone gives me a USB error and locks up. Changing cables hasn't fixed the problem. Both cables and iphone work fine with X1 Audio dac and Woo WA8. Does anyone have any insight? Is this a Denafris USB issue? It will work with my Macbook pro.


It could be amount of power drawn by the Ares. iphones are known for this problem. You can try to insert a self-powered USB 2.0 hub between. It will give Ares receiver enough power as required by the USB specification.


----------



## daytrader

TDinCali said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> I own an Ares II that I'm trying to use via USB connected to my iphone to play Tidal. My phone gives me a USB error and locks up. Changing cables hasn't fixed the problem. Both cables and iphone work fine with X1 Audio dac and Woo WA8. Does anyone have any insight? Is this a Denafris USB issue? It will work with my Macbook pro.


FWIW, I use my iPhone 8 as the source with Tidal, plugged into my home audio system that has a Pontus II, USB input, with no problems.  Have recently gone to Amazon HD and have not experienced any problems as well.   In my earphone system, I again use my iPhone 8 into my Ares II with USB connection into my Stax 007tII amp with no problems.   So I can’t understand why you are having issues?  Sorry I can’t be of more help.  
.


----------



## sajunky

In this post claim is made that Denafrips DACs are not really NOS. It seems a serious allegation - @alvin1118?
I asked for more details of a screenshot parameters, so far no response in that matter.


----------



## Jay_vs

Recently got the fantastic Ares II. I'm just unsure about a couple of things. When in NOS mode I tried the upscaling to DSD in Roon, the volume drops quite a lot and the sound is quite flat and dull. I've Upscaled to DSD on other dac's in Roon it's always been the same volume and sounds amazing. This is on a windows 10 PC. 
Also when I enable DSD the speaker icon in the task bar shows a warning I have no audio device, then returns when back to PCM. 
Another thing, on other dac's, when listening to music in Roon, all other system audio does not work. But I'm able to hear all system sounds with the Ares II. It is using ASIO. 
Any problems here or is it all normal? Thanks.


----------



## Kromen

Jay_vs said:


> Recently got the fantastic Ares II. I'm just unsure about a couple of things. When in NOS mode I tried the upscaling to DSD in Roon, the volume drops quite a lot and the sound is quite flat and dull. I've Upscaled to DSD on other dac's in Roon it's always been the same volume and sounds amazing. This is on a windows 10 PC.
> Also when I enable DSD the speaker icon in the task bar shows a warning I have no audio device, then returns when back to PCM.
> Another thing, on other dac's, when listening to music in Roon, all other system audio does not work. But I'm able to hear all system sounds with the Ares II. It is using ASIO.
> Any problems here or is it all normal? Thanks.


While I do not have my Ares II yet, I experienced a similar behavior with my iFi iDac2 while upscaling to DSD in  Roon, each of the iDac2 filters (5.2 fimrware) affects the volume output.


----------



## ]eep (May 10, 2021)

sajunky said:


> In this post claim is made that Denafrips DACs are not really NOS. It seems a serious allegation - @alvin1118?
> I asked for more details of a screenshot parameters, so far no response in that matter.


pfff, thanks for wasting another hour and ½ of my life on difficult boring technical papers... but that pyramid graph was really off

I think he made a booboo and is to proud to admit. But you (sajunky) are sometimes a bit abrasive and direct (as am I). I learn a lot from you though. Goldensound is to much of the snobby expensive gear and to much ASR measurement type to hit it off with me. I replied over there. 

Even if I do have some doubts about the Ares by now (output stage loudness or impedance) and am back to using my own old dac for pcm it does measure and sound like true NOS. So don't anyone get overly worried.


----------



## sajunky (May 11, 2021)

Jay_vs said:


> Recently got the fantastic Ares II. I'm just unsure about a couple of things. When in NOS mode I tried the upscaling to DSD in Roon, the volume drops quite a lot and the sound is quite flat and dull. I've Upscaled to DSD on other dac's in Roon it's always been the same volume and sounds amazing. This is on a windows 10 PC.
> [...]
> Another thing, on other dac's, when listening to music in Roon, all other system audio does not work. But I'm able to hear all system sounds with the Ares II. It is using ASIO.
> Any problems here or is it all normal? Thanks.


There is perhaps a different settings on other DACS and it happend to be correct.
Are you upsampling DSD to a higher rate or convert PCM to DSD? If later, it is normal that volume drops about 6dB after conversion. Players have an option to compensate such drop. It is somewhere on the menu, find it. I personally do not do more than 3dB, as there is a risk of overloading. Using a Foobar 2000.

A comment to the second part. It means that there is something wrong with Roon. It should claim exclusive access to the device (there is an option in Roon to enable it), then report error on starting playing when exclusive access is not granted, but it doesn't. Check in Windows Sound Control Panel if you have enabled exclusive access to this particular sound device, It is a safe way to block system sounds and more important, for the best sound quality. Check a screenshot:


----------



## sajunky

]eep said:


> pfff, thanks for wasting another hour and ½ of my life on difficult boring technical papers... but that pyramid graph was really off
> 
> I think he made a booboo and is to proud to admit. But you (sajunky) are sometimes a bit abrasive and direct (as am I). I learn a lot from you though. Goldensound is to much of the snobby expensive gear and to much ASR measurement type to hit it off with me. I replied over there.


Good work. A guy posted detais of his mysterious Egiptian pyramide and now it is clear that he made a fundamental mistake.


----------



## Jay_vs

sajunky said:


> There is perhaps a different settings on other DACS and it happend to be correct.
> Are you upsampling DSD to a higher rate or convert PCM to DSD? If later, it is normal that volume drops about 6dB after conversion. Players have an option to compensate such drop. It is somewhere on the menu, find it. I personally do not do more than 3dB, as there is a risk of overloading. Using a Foobar 2000.
> 
> A comment to the second part. It means that there is something wrong with Roon. It should claim exclusive access to the device (there is an option in Roon to enable it), then report error on starting playing when exclusive access is not granted, but it doesn't. Check in Windows Sound Control Panel if you have enabled exclusive access to this particular sound device, It is a safe way to block system sounds and more important, for the best sound quality. Check a screenshot:


Thanks for your help. For whatever reason the drivers where messing up. I reinstalled them and all is good now. PCM to DSD sounds amazing. I love this DAC it's a very special bit of kit. So glad I got it.


----------



## Lolito

How is the USB implementation on this DAC? Does it clean it of artifacts like Schiit usb system?


----------



## NehPets

Lolito said:


> How is the USB implementation on this DAC? Does it clean it of artifacts like Schiit usb system?


Don't notice any artefacts with mine, but then, I don't use a PC as my source.


----------



## betula

Any impressions versus Qutest? 
I like the Qutest but have never heard a proper R2R DAC. 
What Qutest gives me over regular D/S DACs is a more lifelike sound and more depth. 
To my understanding R2R DACs do the same, but in general they do it with lesser resolution but a more tangible, thicker timbre and texture. 

I like resolution and detail, and I am not necessarily after the most lifelike sound. The TT2 and the Qutest were my two best DACs so far. For financial reasons I had to sell the TT2, so I am on Qutest budget level for now. I like the depth and 3 dimensionality of Chord, but also enjoy the punchier and cleaner bass of the RME ADI-2, even though it sounds a bit more 2 dimensional. Detail retrieval is on similar level, and displayed in a very different manner. 

Where would the Ares II stand in this picture? Is it just about the most natural tonality? More natural than Qutest at a price of loosing some resolution? Or does the Ares still contain a good level of bass clarity and punch even versus the ADI-2 and Qutest? 
Any thoughts welcome.


----------



## TheRealDz

Lolito said:


> How is the USB implementation on this DAC? Does it clean it of artifacts like Schiit usb system?


Well, I bought a schiit etyr and after lots of back and forth over a few weeks, I believe the Etyr is an improvement.  Mostly a blacker background and more detailed. 

However, I was getting dropouts (losing sync? getting all digitally?) about once per hour via USB directly into the Ares.  No such issues with the Etyr.  

That said, I can't say the Ares' implementation is necessarily bad, but that the Etyr is better. 

BTW, I love your avatar - Mezzanine is a classic.  God, I miss trip hop...


----------



## iFi audio

TheRealDz said:


> Mezzanine is a classic.



I agree, this has been on my playlist since forever.


----------



## betula

iFi audio said:


> I agree, this has been on my playlist since forever.



This album has become a classic. Will never leave my playlist. 
I am lucky to have memories of the album release as a teenager. Listening with discman and crappy earphones.
Since then I saw Massive Attack live performing in Bristol giving an awesome show. 
Teenage dream come true. 
Top twenty albums to date for sure.


----------



## Lolito

iFi audio said:


> I agree, this has been on my playlist since forever.



Angel better, or dissolved girl, or a few ones in the album. great album indeed.


----------



## ]eep (May 18, 2021)

betula said:


> Any impressions versus Qutest?
> I like the Qutest but have never heard a proper R2R DAC.
> What Qutest gives me over regular D/S DACs is a more lifelike sound and more depth.
> To my understanding R2R DACs do the same, but in general they do it with lesser resolution but a more tangible, thicker timbre and texture.
> ...


again, I disagree with the 'losing resolution' part. I really don't miss a thing that is on the recording with my r2r dacs. What I do not miss is the artificial exaggerated glitter on top that all sigma delta dacs process into the result. It's like comparing a well taken photo with natural transits, soft shadows and colors that aren't totally saturated, to a processed photo with enhanced contrasts, black shadows and sharp edges that go from light gray>white>black>dark grey (unsharp mask or sharpen filters). Thats a bit like the pre- and post ringing on transients, cut off reverbs and 'enhanced' bass 'clarity'. I consider photoshop a great tool in the hands of an expert who knows not to overdo it and where to apply a filter when its called for. Let's say Chord is such an expert. Yet, I can still tell when a photo has been photoshopped and I prefer the raw deal.

I just saw a review by iiWi on YouTube comparing the Qutest to the Ares. He said the Ares has more talent for timbre and the Qutest more for detail. Only with the standard wallwart feeding the Qutest the Ares wins at half the price. With a quality dedicated 5V PS it's a slight win/matter of preference.


I personally don't know Chord, or the Adi. I own the Ares II and more r2r dacs and some ds dacs. Like I said it's not the supposed lack of detail with the Ares why I prefer my old R2R (although it has a clearer, less syrupy sound) but the output is strained incidentally with piano and soprano sustains. Only my own tweaked dacs don't, all others behave the same. And the Ares had a bit rolled off sound on cd over coax. This is not a general sound characteristic because with toslink and usb it is unrestrained in the treble (maybe my Tempo cd player is the culprit).
I never hear anyone complain about the bass in my system. Thanks to Arnie Nudel. With r2r its always tight and strong. With ds I just turn it down a bit (meaning: more is not always better)


Edit: I second that. Mezzanine is one of the greatest albums of the nineties! (Prodigy - Fat of the land comes to mind as another one) Never gets old.


----------



## sabloke

Try the I²S input of your Denafrips DAC. I have found it improves my Venus II, not a lot, but at least all my USB worries are now gone 😊 Using a Matrix Audio X-SPDIF fed from my desktop PC over a nice USB cable and from there a one foot high quality HDMI cable to the Venus. Both Roon and Audirvana sound fantastic and go up to DSD512.


----------



## Lolito

]eep said:


> again, I disagree with the 'losing resolution' part. I really don't miss a thing that is on the recording with my r2r dacs. What I do not miss is the artificial exaggerated glitter on top that all sigma delta dacs process into the result. It's like comparing a well taken photo with natural transits, soft shadows and colors that aren't totally saturated, to a processed photo with enhanced contrasts, black shadows and sharp edges that go from light gray>white>black>dark grey (unsharp mask or sharpen filters). Thats a bit like the pre- and post ringing on transients, cut off reverbs and 'enhanced' bass 'clarity'. I consider photoshop a great tool in the hands of an expert who knows not to overdo it and where to apply a filter when its called for. Let's say Chord is such an expert. Yet, I can still tell when a photo has been photoshopped and I prefer the raw deal.
> 
> I just saw a review by iiWi on YouTube comparing the Qutest to the Ares. He said the Ares has more talent for timbre and the Qutest more for detail. Only with the standard wallwart feeding the Qutest the Ares wins at half the price. With a quality dedicated 5V PS it's a slight win/matter of preference.
> 
> ...



thanks for the explanation. Fat of the land, of course, another great great album, the last great one from prodigy. great years, but musically prodigy was way own in comparison. Still funny, more hard core than chemical, both commercial really, both mtv friendly, chemical and prodigy. 

But you also had portishead, great people these, great music, glory box, such a great track, massive attack level or higher. many great tracks on the 90's, best great decade, last great decade in music, the CD decade. The golden decade of music production.


----------



## TheRealDz

sabloke said:


> Try the I²S input of your Denafrips DAC. I have found it improves my Venus II, not a lot, but at least all my USB worries are now gone 😊 Using a Matrix Audio X-SPDIF fed from my desktop PC over a nice USB cable and from there a one foot high quality HDMI cable to the Venus. Both Roon and Audirvana sound fantastic and go up to DSD512.


Sadly, the Ares doesn't have an I2S input.


----------



## sabloke

Oh damn, I should have known better, owned one for a few weeks... My bad. How is the coax input compared to Usb?


----------



## daytrader

I’ll second Portishead!  Really enjoy Roseland NYC live on my Stax/Denafrips system, late night, under low lights and a glass of single malt.🥃


----------



## daytrader

]eep said:


> again, I disagree with the 'losing resolution' part. I really don't miss a thing that is on the recording with my r2r dacs. What I do not miss is the artificial exaggerated glitter on top that all sigma delta dacs process into the result. It's like comparing a well taken photo with natural transits, soft shadows and colors that aren't totally saturated, to a processed photo with enhanced contrasts, black shadows and sharp edges that go from light gray>white>black>dark grey (unsharp mask or sharpen filters). Thats a bit like the pre- and post ringing on transients, cut off reverbs and 'enhanced' bass 'clarity'. I consider photoshop a great tool in the hands of an expert who knows not to overdo it and where to apply a filter when its called for. Let's say Chord is such an expert. Yet, I can still tell when a photo has been photoshopped and I prefer the raw deal.
> 
> I just saw a review by iiWi on YouTube comparing the Qutest to the Ares. He said the Ares has more talent for timbre and the Qutest more for detail. Only with the standard wallwart feeding the Qutest the Ares wins at half the price. With a quality dedicated 5V PS it's a slight win/matter of preference.
> 
> ...



OMG, I find myself agreeing with jeep on something.  Has hell frozen over?! 😵‍💫


----------



## daytrader

Sorry, just can’t help myself…


----------



## ]eep (May 19, 2021)

daytrader said:


> OMG, I find myself agreeing with jeep on something.  Has hell frozen over?! 😵‍💫


Dunno. I so loved Portishead I had 2 copies on vinyl and the cd's. Btw; I just ordered 5 bottles of Glenlivet, Dalwhinny and Finlaggan. Just let it freeze baby. Slàinte.

I bet the Ares does have i²s since that's the internal protocol.  Only it's not accessible from the outside.
I really need to make one for my little dac to bypass the dir9001 now that i have a source with i²s output.


----------



## Lolito

daytrader said:


> Sorry, just can’t help myself…



overrated band NIN, more over rated than bruce springsteen or brian eno


----------



## daytrader (May 19, 2021)

Lolito said:


> overrated band NIN, more over rated than bruce springsteen or brian eno


Maybe Brian, especially during his solo years but I’m sorry, not the Boss! 😁


----------



## Lolito

The wife of the boss is better than him.


----------



## simon740

Hello,

What do you guys say about that: https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/62872-denafrips-dacs-might-not-actually-be-nos/#comments

regards,
Simon


----------



## sabloke

So that's the reason why I can't see much difference between NOS and OS modes?  I'm supposed to like the sound less now you reckon?


----------



## sajunky (May 20, 2021)

simon740 said:


> Hello,
> 
> What do you guys say about that: https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/62872-denafrips-dacs-might-not-actually-be-nos/#comments
> 
> ...


The same claim @GoldenOne posted in his Holo Audio review thread (which he found very favourable to his ears). Discussion heated up from that point, it is worth to read everything from this post despite of a trolls attack. I requested to show sample boundaries on this mysterious egyptian pyramid. When response came out it became clear, I have explained in my post that @GoldenOne made a simple mistake. It is actually true NOS sample-hold behaviour, a slope you see is integration on the output capacitor. It is confirmed by a user idiot_savant in this post (the same thread from your link).

In other words there is no question wether Ares II is a true NOS, it is indeed. There is other issue with stepped linearity test, I see John Atkinson response there as well. I think he dropped a ball in the Ares/Terminator test and also Holo Audio May test, he failed to investigate May's strange behaviour as well.

I think this stepped behaviour is in result of how Denafrips implemented ladder resistor compensation. It is not a compensation in strict terms, but randomisation of errors. It does de-correlate resistors errors, bringing better measurements, but it can bring strange noise running in parallel to a music. I realised about it when I found on a Russian forum bizzarre screenshots from the osciloscope of Holo Springs, see it in my post, the original link is included. It is difficult to interprete results, as a picture is a compound of overlapping multiple traces, but it is clear that something is not right. @]eep, are you there?

 It gives explanation why in listening tests Holo DACs do not end up as good as it would indicate from measurements.


----------



## GoldenOne (May 20, 2021)

sajunky said:


> The same claim @GoldenOne posted in his Holo Audio review thread (which he found very favourable to his ears). Discussion heated up from that point, it is worth to read everything from this post despite of a trolls attack. I requested to show sample boundaries on this mysterious egyptian pyramid. When response came out it became clear, I have explained in my post that @GoldenOne made a simple mistake. It is actually true NOS sample-hold behaviour, a slope you see is integration on the output capacitor. It is confirmed by a user idiot_savant in this post (the same thread from your link).
> 
> In other words there is no question wether Ares II is a true NOS, it is indeed. There is other issue with stepped linearity test, I see John Atkinson response there as well. I think he dropped a ball in the Ares/Terminator test and also Holo Audio May test, he failed to investigate May's strange behaviour as well.
> 
> ...


A capacitor is not a linear integrator it is a low-pass filter.

Linear interpolation entirely in the analog domain is actually exceptionally difficult and complex to do.


----------



## sajunky

GoldenOne said:


> A capacitor is not a linear integrator it is a low-pass filter.


What?


----------



## betula

daytrader said:


> I’ll second Portishead!  Really enjoy Roseland NYC live on my Stax/Denafrips system, late night, under low lights and a glass of single malt.🥃


 +1 for Portishead. Another great band from my teenage years. When I started to listen to them in my home country many moons ago I had no idea one day I will be living relatively close to Portishead UK.


----------



## betula

betula said:


> +1 for Portishead. Another great band from my teenage years. When I started to listen to them in my home country many moons ago I had no idea one day I will be living relatively close to Portishead UK.


Even though I am listening in FLAC, I can tell the recording quality is the main restriction factor. 
While the consumer side of audio went through an incredible improvement in the last 5-10 years, the recording side of audio has been forgotten and ignored, stuck in past in a way... 

Recording quality is 50% of the deal... Relevant people, please hear my plea... I know Chord (UK) is working on better recording devices, but this should be the main focus in our hobby IMO, if we are after better sound.


----------



## sabloke

Started listening Roon + HQPlayer to Matrix X-SPDIF via I2S into Venus II. What a revelation! Need to learn how to fine tune this HQPlayer beast...


----------



## ]eep (May 20, 2021)

GoldenOne said:


> A capacitor is not a linear integrator it is a low-pass filter.
> 
> Linear interpolation entirely in the analog domain is actually exceptionally difficult and complex to do.


How about an inductor? Interpolation is not very unlike taking out high frequency sampling noise. Class-D amps all use them on the output, very simple way to iron out stairs into a slope. 

Please focus at what you're good at. Don't get rattled when you make a mistake. Everyone makes mistakes. It defines a man how he handles it.

I think your allegation about the Ares is premature, unwarranted and totally uncool. It seems like FUD with an agenda. The mystery pyramid graph is pulled out of scale and does NOT show a regular analog output scope of a dac reproducing a transient. Every dac with a peak value transient shows ringing after that. Yours is just absent. Or it's missing the palm tree and camel.

I'm not an expert, but I was under the impression that a capacitor was either used as a high-pass or to store energy (just FYI for the non techies).


----------



## sajunky (May 22, 2021)

]eep said:


> The mystery pyramid graph is pulled out of scale and does NOT show a regular analog output scope of a dac reproducing a transient. Every dac with a peak value transient shows ringing after that. Yours is just absent. Or it's missing the palm tree and camel.


It can look like that (without ringing), expecially when output current is integrated on a capacitor. Yes, "integrated", as the initial phase of charging a capacitor looks like a straight line.


----------



## shafat777

Just ordered a pontus II. Gonna put my area 2 on sale tonight.


----------



## simon740

Anyone use cd transport for Ares II? Which one? Or something like OPPO 103/105....

regards,
Simon


----------



## NehPets

simon740 said:


> Anyone use cd transport for Ares II? Which one? Or something like OPPO 103/105....
> 
> regards,
> Simon


Linn Karik.


----------



## AlanU

The Venus ii at least has a feature of re-clocking the input signal before it's D to A processes the square wave. This is basically one of the reasons why the Venus ii costs more and has different SQ qualities. 

The issue with USB and Ares ii is that now people must rely on source quality. Jitter from the streamer/laptop to the quality of the USB cable (quality of rejecting outside noise) and also EMI due to a lack of galvanic isolation (correct me if I'm wrong about this).

If anyone truly wants to improve sound they should look into DDC. It appears the Denafrips line is catered more for their own line. The Mutec Mc-3+ USB units I own (I use two of them and cascade them!). Mutec is more of a universal unit that has more versatility in clock speeds. 

For people with Ares II, purchasing such a DDC you have NO IDEA what you will be tapping into. For the people that own VENUS or terminator, re-clocking source signal and feeding ultra low jitter to the "internal jitter reduction/re-clock will further knock your socks off. 

Currently I have dusted off my ancient Burr brown 1793 Burson DA-160 (10+ years old).  I've experimented feeding ultra low jitter I've created with my daisy chained Mutec MC-3+ USB units and my impression of an average DAC has become mind boggling. The open sound stage is not as airy as some but the emotional engagement and detail extraction is shockingly amazing for a DAC I was going to throw away in the garbage. From my personal Space Tech Labs tube dac w/tube rectifier power supply to a friends borrowed Aqua La Scala. The cascaded DDC,  elevated the sound quality to analog bliss  but more realism and emotion like real life venue sound. My DA-160 using USB was thin, edgy filled with digital glare. Feeding it coax was slightly better. Now feeding it COAX that comes from the cascaded Mutec's is literally in the realm of the Aqua La Scala 10grand dac. I am not exaggerating....!!!!!! Now such an obsolete dac can be used for critical listening. 

So this is where people must stop considering change only from buying a DAC. I would say people reading my post. I'd suggest concentrating on source. Remove jitter !!! With my cascaded Mutec's with an Ares ii, I'd confidently compare it to a venus ii using usb/I2S. However, this is where using a re-clocking DDC feeding a Venus II will move forward in "better" sq.

Now that the "secret" is out. The key to SQ is to produce the most "ideal" square wave to feed the digital to analog converter. Garbage in = garbage out. Words cannot describe how shocked I am using an obsolete DA-160 and compare it to much $$$$$$$$$ dacs. My 3+ grand investment in a re-clocking DDC now guarantees me 100% galvanic isolation and precision clock to any DAC I own. In my personal experience 100% of the DACS I've fed re-clocked signal has made substantial SQ changes as if I purchased a more expensive dac. Manufacturers now know this digital process......as you can see why Denafrips is concentrating serious R&D in the input treatment of the venus ii and terminator +.

I just do it the other way around with a re-clocking DDC so I can use any dac in the world that has Coax. 24/192 is more than enough information to provide holographic imaging, isolation, hanging in the air realism in note decay. Do not get jaded thinking you require higher bit than that. I would question your cans, gear before believing SQ is based on 32 bit resolution etc etc. 

Using a crap eatr or Topping D10(s) as a high quality DDC is still allowing garbage source to enter the dac's input. If anyone is interested in cleaning jitter, you must reclock with a precision clock/DDC. The difference between a schiit eatr/high end old schoold DDC to a higher tech Re-clocking DDC is the difference between garbage digital glare due to jitter or effortless analog bliss/flow from the lack of jitter confusing the D to A process. 

In otherwords, a dac is the right step in improving SQ but MOST dacs are not fully optimized simply due to receiving garbage signal. The audiofile assumes the DAC can fix the translation process when converting analog. In reality this is definitely NOT the case. Venus and terminator at least has a single stage "jitter clean process". This is why Denafrips charges $$$$$$ vs Ares II.


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## simon740 (May 27, 2021)

Isn't it better then that the transport is already so good that it doesn't need DDC? A good streamer for example?
So you’re saying it’s better to buy an Ares II along with Iris DDC than Pontus II alone?


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## AlanU (May 27, 2021)

Yes. Moving forward any type of DAC you ever buy will sound the best due to ideal low Jitter signal. Also galvanic isolation can be had with a Mutec MC-3+usb.

You must also realize that the quality of the DAC is also a factor. However, 100% percent garbage in will equal garbage out. You must actively prevent that from happening.

Look at the purchase of a re-clocking DDC as a non audio component. Once you have the foundation of ultra low jitter, your entire system will benefit in digital music world. If you look at a DDC as a digital cleanse, looking at at DAC is another topic.

I would be quite confident that a DDC with aries ii would sound better than a Pontus with NO DDC. This is where I'm trying to let people realize that face value, a DAC is not translating properly unless it has clean source. In the case of venus and terminator, cleaning "redundancy" is more beneficial than just having 1 single stage jitter cleanse with a precise clock. This is one reason why many hardcore source clean freaks use 3 x Mutec Mc-3+USB. I only have 2 at the moment and it's not a joke in killing that cheap sounding glare.

You may observe almost all audio geeks love newer "better" dacs because of LESS digital glare. The "secret" is feed a cheap dac jitter free (ultra low jitter and no emi) and suddenly that cheap dac will sound DRAMATICALLY better. This is what separates the cheap glare and analog bliss to a degree. Instead of a bandaid you must hit the ROOT CAUSE which is eliminating the translation of garbage IN!!!

I'm not a believer.....I have replicated improvements in all of the DACS I've tested and owned with ultra low jitter. Not a matter of gambling to pray your streamer or laptop has clean source. I went out of my way to create ultra low jitter with a proven studio grade German unit(s).

I do not sell gear. I am a hardcore clean source freak with 100% payback in analog bliss that is 100% repeatable every single time.

I must also elaborate that I've tested a laptop + mutec and it sounds as good as any $$$$ streamer. Using a $$$ streamer + Mutec sounds equally if not identical to the "noisy" laptop/mutec combo. This indicates that the Mutec is doing some serious cleanse of noise via galvanic isolation and re-clocking. In other words, you must do things methodically by hitting the root cause of digital cheap sounding glare. Using a re-clocking DDC + aries II may be a great start and any DAC down the road will operate maximum SQ due to ultra low jitter signal being translated......


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## AlanU

simon740 said:


> Isn't it better then that the transport is already so good that it doesn't need DDC? A good streamer for example?
> So you’re saying it’s better to buy an Ares II along with Iris DDC than Pontus II alone?


The definition of a good streamer is clean jitter free source. This is typically not the case as it does not actively reclock. The way most streamers output cleaner signal is using  linear power supply and configuration and selection of the mini PC inside. No moving fans or any mechanical devices internally.

$$$$ streamers will be galvanically isolated and re-clocked. Auralic G2 is $$$$ and high performance in cleanse. IIRC the G2  also re-clocks for a price of 5 grand USD.

This is were I suggest extreme versatility in an external unit. Only reason why I suggest Mutec is because it has more selective frequency and versatility over the Denafrips DDC units. Also overseas alternatives in word clock external units for precise clock feeds or Mutec REF10 or REF10-120 $$$$$$

I see too many people just thinking that they must purchase a higher line of DAC. In many cases they have not even maximized SQ with the current one they one. You will never know until you try an ultra low jitter signal. Not a matter of "praying" but actively creating ultra low jitter signal. Such a signal may possibly make a high percentage of people fall in love with aries and not forced to move up an upgrade path for better sound. .....this is my point. Many are unaware!!


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## simon740

AlanU said:


> The definition of a good streamer is clean jitter free source. This is typically not the case as it does not actively reclock. The way most streamers output cleaner signal is using  linear power supply and configuration and selection of the mini PC inside. No moving fans or any mechanical devices internally.
> 
> $$$$ streamers will be galvanically isolated and re-clocked. Auralic G2 is $$$$ and high performance in cleanse. IIRC the G2  also re-clocks for a price of 5 grand USD.
> 
> ...


Thanks for that. Interesting.


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## Lolito

AlanU said:


> The definition of a good streamer is clean jitter free source. This is typically not the case as it does not actively reclock. The way most streamers output cleaner signal is using  linear power supply and configuration and selection of the mini PC inside. No moving fans or any mechanical devices internally.
> 
> $$$$ streamers will be galvanically isolated and re-clocked. Auralic G2 is $$$$ and high performance in cleanse. IIRC the G2  also re-clocks for a price of 5 grand USD.
> 
> ...


Very interesting, appreciated, but could you please talk actual money numbers? the ares2 costs me 640€ shipped, plus import fees. How much is that jitter removed kinda thing costs??? You say it is better than sliced bread, I don't know you and I have not heard it yet, but I believe you and I´ve heard bout this already for a while, but the question is, how many green fun coupons is a decent DDC gonna cost me? because if it costs me 3 grand, heheh, well, o wonder it will sound good, but 3 grand is a lot of actual concerts man.


----------



## ]eep

you really got me intrigued. I get the suspicion I don't know what  don't know. Although I don't use a pc as source and I'm really satisfied so far. The only qualms I have with the Ares are related to the output stage. But I can use the Ires with my other dac too, adding a usb input to it. The Iris only has usb in but it only costs €430 + duties. So its not exorbitant. The Hermes is €1030 for more inputs and an even better clock. But I do not think that it is worth the extra for tv (youtube etc) and the occasional cd. 

I'm enjoying my new speakers today. I brought them home from the workshop because they're pretty much beta-stage now. I just made a little adjustment to the tweeters and they sound pretty awesome. (3" Ti dual woofers in dipole and an AMT tweeter supported by my Genesis VI as subwoofers). Just funny how the mind wanders when you read about a ddc reclocker while listening to new, speakers, one tends to project the sound difference to a ddc instead of to the new speakers. 

So I am wondering if the improvement would be just as noticeble for my dap (Tempotec V1) and media player (SMSL DP5) as with a pc.


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## AlanU

Lolito said:


> Very interesting, appreciated, but could you please talk actual money numbers? the ares2 costs me 640€ shipped, plus import fees. How much is that jitter removed kinda thing costs??? You say it is better than sliced bread, I don't know you and I have not heard it yet, but I believe you and I´ve heard bout this already for a while, but the question is, how many green fun coupons is a decent DDC gonna cost me? because if it costs me 3 grand, heheh, well, o wonder it will sound good, but 3 grand is a lot of actual concerts man.


Please note I do not sell gear. I am an audio geek and appreciate music 

One thing I must make clear is that we should try to look at source as a different entity. Please try to grasp the idea of cleaning source as a strategy.

Look at Pontus 2, Venus 2 and Terminator and Terminator plus. All of those DACS are re-clocking source at the input stage. Hmmmmm now look at other high end DACs on the market and they also do some form of "jitter" treatment. 

We must look at our budget and see where we can throw our $$$.  640€ shipped is money for "AUDIO" equipment. When I discuss $1600 CDN for a Mutec MC-3+USB it's going from the square wave from your computer/streamer and converts it to digital signal in several standards AES/Spdif (bnc or rca), toslink. This is all about square wave being cleansed as a reconstructed square wave (both ultra low jitter and removal of EMI due to galvanic isolation). Creating precise clock makes a digital to analog converter map a square wave and stupidly and effortlessly converts it to an analog sine wave. This is the whole intent of digital music stream. 

Think of a deviated square wave disturbed by noise both in timing and amplitude. Can you imagine being a digital device trying to interpret a signal that was NEVER INTENDED to be that way by the music artist. This is why jitter creates INACCURATE translation which is in the form of digital glare! This is the obvious but it took me years to go out of my comfort zone to spend money on it. 

IF you are NOT happy with your current gear or DAC. Please spend  your money there first. Once you are happy this indicates that you are finding your system to be possibly musical or transparent (very personal).  

I am trying to make people realize is that Denafrips ARES ii is a great dac that operates well without a re-clocking jitter remover from the factory. What makes you think people look at the Terminator + vs the original???? Denafrips has put more R&D in the re-clocking precision clock at the input of the latest flagship vs the original terminator. OK back to ARES II. Try to now visualize a clean ultra low jitter square wave from a Re-clocking DDC (example is MUTEC). This is externally treating signal (serious reduction of jitter/emi)  and feeding it to the capable ARES II DAC. 

I'm vocal regarding ultra low jitter source is because this is one of the main reasons why companies do such a cleanse. This is the main reason for the removal or reduction of digital edge aka digital glare. 

Dig are read real world user of the MC-3+USB DDC. A friend of mine said my jaw should hit the ground. After such an experience I had to buy another to cascade to refine the do redundant re-clocking using internal precise word clock in the Mutec unit. Note this is the MC-3+ USB and not the earlier MC-3+. 

So far I'm just enticing people to research. Please research hard..... this is the secret in analog bliss in digital streaming music world. From personal experience, this has been one of the most significant changes I've done in removing glare. NO roll off of frequency. You will have darker background which means micro details will be heard as it is now above the noise floor. Note decay can be longer because of blacker noise background. Shimmer of highs will linger longer with a longer tail. Not a matter of sounding vinyl .....digital will have real world realism in the analog sound and not that replicated digititis sound. 

My point is that treat this approach as two different things. You will then have "ideal" signal from now on to any DAC. The Ares ii may possibly be endgame for many. It's not about looking at others being envious of purchasing a Venus ii, Terminator plus or Aqua acoustic $20,000 dac. You may truly find that DACS sound different. This "different" can possibly satisfy you like crazy. People going from ARES II to venus to terminator + is jumping into a dac with precision clock jitter treatment internally. The ARES does NOT have this type of sophisticated jitter reduction. 

My suggestion is enjoy your R2R or delta sigma dac or proprietary D to A cct. Once you enjoy you can later decide to enhance  your SQ. I will say my first Mutec was my first jaw dropping What moment in digital streaming music. Funny how I've had some people chuckling at me saying I have an agenda......LOL!!! Same people diving into the Mutec jitter reduction unit take it back. I'm grateful to have a friend that steered me in the right direction. It was genuinely the best advice I've ever gotten regarding square wave digital music. 

Investigate Mutec feedback and just observe what they say. 

My ancient Burson DA-160 was NOTHING remarkable. I would say it's old tech but with a clean signal I was completely shocked. It's such a massive transformation as I'm making D to A become more accurate to what the artist wanted you to hear......


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## TheRealDz (May 28, 2021)

AlanU said:


> Yes. Moving forward any type of DAC you ever buy will sound the best due to ideal low Jitter signal. Also galvanic isolation can be had with a Mutec MC-3+usb.
> 
> You must also realize that the quality of the DAC is also a factor. However, 100% percent garbage in will equal garbage out. You must actively prevent that from happening.
> 
> ...


So what DDCs would you recommend? 

I managed to snag a Schiit Eitr for $99 a few weeks back - it was a good entry point for DDCs for me. 

There's a Gustard for $300, but there's a lot of hate thrown at it for its instability.

There are Matrix and Audio G-D units for about $450, then the Iris for a bit more.

I can flip my Eitr, and if I can find a unit with toslink input, I can flip my iFi Silencer toslink to coax converter.  Hmmmm  🤔


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## AlanU

TheRealDz said:


> So what DDCs would you recommend?
> 
> I managed to snag a Schiit Eitr for $99 a few weeks back - it was a good entry point for DDCs for me.
> 
> ...


Look at a DDC that has an internal clock. It must be capable of re-clocking. 

I use the Mutec MC-3+ USB smart clock. With a laptop or streamer, I can use any inexpensive usb cable and it does not negatively effect SQ. The jitter contaminated signal is stripped and retransformed and the internal precise clock frequency is applied to the output signal.  This is what the main objective of using such DDC.


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## Chodi

I own the Ares II. Someone just made me aware that there is a firmware upgrade available from Denafrips. I believe it effects other models as well. Here is the link:

https://www.denafrips.com/firmware-update

The link for the installation tool is active. The link for the firmware is not active. Yet I see on another forum some people have received it (somehow). There is no mention of what this firmware revision is for or what it "upgrades". In doing a little digging I find that Vinshine Audio says this addresses some crackling in os mode that some were experiencing. I do not know if it has any other benefit. I also do not know where to get an active download link for the firmware. The tool is not very useful without the firmware. If anyone has information on this please share.


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## Lolito

AlanU said:


> Please note I do not sell gear. I am an audio geek and appreciate music
> 
> One thing I must make clear is that we should try to look at source as a different entity. Please try to grasp the idea of cleaning source as a strategy.
> 
> ...


that ddc costs more than my speaekers


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## simon740

@AlanU
The only problem I see here is, if I chose ddc and then going from there to coax input on Ares II, loose native DSD.
So only DoP64...


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## AlanU

simon740 said:


> @AlanU
> The only problem I see here is, if I chose ddc and then going from there to coax input on Ares II, loose native DSD.
> So only DoP64...


The specs of the Ares ii indicates:

24bits / 44.1, 48, 88.2, 96, 176.4, 192KHz On All Input

Any device sending USB cable to a Mutec will process PCM. 

What you must have wrap your head around this type of topic is about quality. To my ears and many audio geek friends do not find a higher res over 24/192 sounds substantially better. 

If you have followed my "secret" you would be in for an awakening!! You'll will surprise your ears that 24/192 will be a substantial difference than most folks utilizing USB implementation and getting higher res.

Coax cable typically would reject noise better than USB cable. If you analyze the path of Mutec to DAC. The weakest link is the quality of the coax cable between the two units. That is the only real point of degrading the square wave signal with noise. 

Higher resolution to me is not a concern. I have heard plenty of systems with 32bit feed. At this moment,  bits is the least of my worries. I'll take 16 bit music from my ultra low jitter feed as it will destroy any usb 32 bit I've ever used. 

My Burson DA-160 at 24/192 is non fatiguing, holographic, phenomenal ryhthm and pace, excellent detail, superb realism. This is coming from a 10 year old, outdated dac using burr brown 1793. Comparing it to my previous mytek liberty/brooklyn + using linear power supply and coax input (NOT From MUTEC) . The Burson  at this moment is mind boggling in how well it performs in musicality with zero fatigue. Burson provide a real venue sound for female vocals. When I was using a topping D10 as a usb to spdif conveter or Stello U3 feeding the mytek dac, that setup did not remotely even come close with MQA or 32 bit. 

Quality of jitter free over quantity of bits. This must truly be understood as fact. Mutec's only limitation is that it does not have I2S and that coax is limited to 24/192. Listening to my system I am genuinely picking my jaw off the ground as I once believed I must have higher res than 24 bit. 

Key point is analog sound with the removal of digital glare. 

I would love to compare an old laptop with Mutec vs a $5000-10,000 streamer. I will put my money on the laptop/mutec combo. This is how confident I am with an external pro grade studio device from Germany. Using an external device that has the design of galvanic isolation and re-clocking is a 100% repeatable device. 

Infact I'd love to compare a cheaper Node 2i streamer (coax) feeding it to CD input (RCA) on the mutec unit. I think it would be as amazing as a 5000 to 10,000 dollar streamer. What people must understand is that downstream (mutec) is providing the signal and NOT the computer/streamer. Such "computers" are providing the 1's and 0's. The Mutec takes care of stripping the noisy clock signal and re-transforms the square wave with no Tonal changes to the music.


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## Headcan

Chodi said:


> I own the Ares II. Someone just made me aware that there is a firmware upgrade available from Denafrips. I believe it effects other models as well. Here is the link:
> 
> https://www.denafrips.com/firmware-update
> 
> The link for the installation tool is active. The link for the firmware is not active. Yet I see on another forum some people have received it (somehow). There is no mention of what this firmware revision is for or what it "upgrades". In doing a little digging I find that Vinshine Audio says this addresses some crackling in os mode that some were experiencing. I do not know if it has any other benefit. I also do not know where to get an active download link for the firmware. The tool is not very useful without the firmware. If anyone has information on this please share.


I'm one of those users whom have done the firmware update.  You'll need to contact Alvin from Vinshine Audio direct.  He'll then send you the ConfigProgramDriver.zip and Firmware Tool (Ares 200318A).zip files after assessing and confirming that you are tech savvy enough to do it yourself.


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## Lolito

AlanU said:


> The specs of the Ares ii indicates:
> 
> 24bits / 44.1, 48, 88.2, 96, 176.4, 192KHz On All Input
> 
> ...


that mutec thing must be so expensive if you do not want to talk about the cost of it.


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## AlanU

Lolito said:


> that mutec thing must be so expensive if you do not want to talk about the cost of it.


oh...I thought I indicated price of it.

$1349 usd  is what i've seen on the net. Pro grade studio gear designed specifically for audio geeks. Mutec is a German company that produces high quality studio components.  

My approach is that it's not audio equipment. Its a digital to digital conversion device. However the unit creates a change of how your current dac translates (plots) square wave and changes digital square to a sine wave. So logical,  yet few will understand how critical it becomes when the translation is sounding as it was intended by the artist. 

I'm stating that one should investigate. This is what separates common digital glare to suddenly an analog refined sound.


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## TheRealDz

Headcan said:


> I'm one of those users whom have done the firmware update.  You'll need to contact Alvin from Vinshine Audio direct.  He'll then send you the ConfigProgramDriver.zip and Firmware Tool (Ares 200318A).zip files after assessing and confirming that you are tech savvy enough to do it yourself.


Any word on the benefits of the upgrade?  I didn't see any release notes on the website...


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## Lolito

AlanU said:


> oh...I thought I indicated price of it.
> 
> $1349 usd  is what i've seen on the net. Pro grade studio gear designed specifically for audio geeks. Mutec is a German company that produces high quality studio components.
> 
> ...


Ok good, thanks a lot. So an ARES 2 + that thing it is total basically 2000$, or 2000€ in Europe after taxes... 

Now, with that expertise that you have, what would be the best setup for digital to analog conversion from a macbook via usb for 1000$/1000€. And then, for 500$/€. 

2000€ D to A sounds reasonable, in a 20.000€ system. My current system is 2.500€ including daps dacs amps speakers subwoofers headphones and iems...


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## Kromen

IMHO I don't think you need to spend a lot for a good DDC, in my system (beefy gaming pc) I noticed a big improvement using a Schiit Eitr over USB, blacker background, deeper stage, more defined and tighter bass, but I used a pyst usb cable, so with better usb cables things could be different.


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## Chodi

Headcan said:


> I'm one of those users whom have done the firmware update.  You'll need to contact Alvin from Vinshine Audio direct.  He'll then send you the ConfigProgramDriver.zip and Firmware Tool (Ares 200318A).zip files after assessing and confirming that you are tech savvy enough to do it yourself.


Thanks for the info. I am tech savvy so this would be simple for me. I have had my Aries 2 for about 6 months is there any way to tell what version of firmware it has? I don't see the point in replacing the same firmware should that be the case. It is possible that the upgrade tool would list the current onboard firmware allowing you to bail out if it is the same. Some tools provide that kind of info. I still don't really know how this is supposed to "upgrade" the dac if all functions are working. Possibly would effect os mode but unlikely that it would effect nos mode which is what I use on linux with HQPlayer. Anyway, checking version on board makes sense before trying to flash. There is always the possibility that something can go wrong with a firmware flash even for the most experienced.


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## ]eep (May 28, 2021)

Lolito said:


> that mutec thing must be so expensive if you do not want to talk about the cost of it.


it's €999 at (fi) Thomann or any big music instruments store. Still, the Denafrips Iris is only €432 + collateral damage/protection money/shakedown fee.

If you want to know more about Mutec, there is a review on 6-Moons (a site I find is very well informed and objective) https://6moons.com/audioreview_articles/mutec/


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## sajunky

Chodi said:


> Possibly would effect os mode but unlikely that it would effect nos mode which is what I use on linux with HQPlayer. Anyway, checking version on board makes sense before trying to flash. There is always the possibility that something can go wrong with a firmware flash even for the most experienced.


It can affect NOS mode, as Ares do some clock synchronisation. They could try to improve this part or decide not to do reclocking on the USB port when not required, it would be a good move. They could also change a ladder randomisation algorithm, as a current one give strange results in linearity test and probably affect a sound. It is also processed in FPGA.

Contact Alvin providing your serial number, I am sure they have a full history and when needed they will send you a firmware file.


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## Lolito

]eep said:


> it's €999 at (fi) Thomann or any big music instruments store. Still, the Denafrips Iris is only €432 + collateral damage/protection money/shakedown fee.


I understand, thanks a lot. So 640€ the ares+fees... 1100€+fees for the denafrips combo... Very interesting really. Maybe USB to the DDC, and then via hdmi I2S to the DAC, that would be a great combo, no? ARES2 has no i2s input I guess now...

There is also some kind of DDC by Singxer, no? the SU-1, around 300$...

I feel though like this should be included into any good DAC that has a USB input; put a DDC card for the USB, no? and make it 200€ extra cost, and be done with it, no need for extra PSU, extra box, extra cost...



Kromen said:


> IMHO I don't think you need to spend a lot for a good DDC, in my system (beefy gaming pc) I noticed a big improvement using a Schiit Eitr over USB, blacker background, deeper stage, more defined and tighter bass, but I used a pyst usb cable, so with better usb cables things could be different.


https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...nts-of-schiit-eitr-usb-to-s-pdif-bridge.3753/


----------



## ]eep

what I read is that the Denafrips designer said the board of the Iris would already take up too much room in a dac. And also in the reviews of the Iris that users of Ares to Terminator use them and all find it a big improvement. Just have a look over at the Denafrips site under DDC's


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## Lolito

I trust you completely, not because what you say makes all the sense, but you have experience on this topic and I am a beginner and never tested these things. That being said, we have to admit that there is something funny in this. I mean, I have a set of active speakers, and I have a macbook, but in between I have a balanced pre amp, a dac, a liner power supply, an audiophile usb cable, an airport express to send red book wirelessly lossless, a toslink cable to the dac... lot of boxes if you ask me, but hey, what is one more, nothing really. I would seriously consider buying one of these DDC then, but it needs to be something with a reasonable price performance, something not very expensive, but that can give a certain result that I can appreciate in a listening test. Would my ear notice the difference or it would be bias?

And last but not least, what DAC's would you say have the most similar or decent USB jitter or noise or galvanization, or however you want to call it, which ones do it better? Schiit Unison system? Singxer SA6 dac? Gustard dacs? Chord? Topping?

And then, the best value DDC would be for example the Singxer SU2 for 325€+VAT? what do you guys think... an interesting topic, one other box. Singxer has a few of these DDC available, at different prices, with different features. Some are... clocked??

gustard ddc: 

https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/digi...-accusilicon-32bit-384khz-dsd512-p-14146.html


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## simon740

Lolito said:


> I trust you completely, not because what you say makes all the sense, but you have experience on this topic and I am a beginner and never tested these things. That being said, we have to admit that there is something funny in this. I mean, I have a set of active speakers, and I have a macbook, but in between I have a balanced pre amp, a dac, a liner power supply, an audiophile usb cable, an airport express to send red book wirelessly lossless, a toslink cable to the dac... lot of boxes if you ask me, but hey, what is one more, nothing really. I would seriously consider buying one of these DDC then, but it needs to be something with a reasonable price performance, something not very expensive, but that can give a certain result that I can appreciate in a listening test. Would my ear notice the difference or it would be bias?
> 
> *And last but not least, what DAC's would you say have the most similar or decent USB jitter or noise or galvanization, or however you want to call it, which ones do it better? Schiit Unison system? Singxer SA6 dac? Gustard dacs? Chord? Topping?*
> 
> ...


Sorry @Lolito  this is Ares II topic. And this is obviously very good dac.


----------



## Chodi

After further research I find that the firmware upgrade was way back in September of 2019. I purchased my Ares II in June of 2020 so I don't need to bother with firmware upgrades. I think it's safe to assume the factory was using the new firmware code long before I purchased mine.


----------



## Headcan

TheRealDz said:


> Any word on the benefits of the upgrade?  I didn't see any release notes on the website...


No release notes in the files either.  Alvin suggested I do the firmware update first to see if it fixes an issue with intermittent static/crackling over USB, which it did.

The unit was bought in December 2019.


----------



## ]eep (May 29, 2021)

many of the devices on the audiophonics page are just usb interfaces. And the info is often more (dumbed down) marketing than that it explains what it does so I can glean from it if it's an improvement. Also, most real reclockers deliver an i²s output that the Ares doesn't have. I would like to maintain DSD functionality so I would prefer a usb output. It's all rather complex technical material, not really consumer level. That is why I skipped a lot of Srajan Ebaens technical reviews on 6-Moons. It's like learning a new language (again!).

As I was searching I found Srajans review of the Denafrips DDC's where also others are mentioned (Mutec). It's an interesting read with lots of information. I'm still reading but I am sure it will be interesting as an upgrade to the Ares; yes or no. 
https://6moons.com/audioreview_articles/denafrips5/


----------



## daytrader

Lolito said:


> I trust you completely, not because what you say makes all the sense, but you have experience on this topic and I am a beginner and never tested these things. That being said, we have to admit that there is something funny in this. I mean, I have a set of active speakers, and I have a macbook, but in between I have a balanced pre amp, a dac, a liner power supply, an audiophile usb cable, an airport express to send red book wirelessly lossless, a toslink cable to the dac... lot of boxes if you ask me, but hey, what is one more, nothing really. I would seriously consider buying one of these DDC then, but it needs to be something with a reasonable price performance, something not very expensive, but that can give a certain result that I can appreciate in a listening test. Would my ear notice the difference or it would be bias?
> 
> And last but not least, what DAC's would you say have the most similar or decent USB jitter or noise or galvanization, or however you want to call it, which ones do it better? Schiit Unison system? Singxer SA6 dac? Gustard dacs? Chord? Topping?
> 
> ...


When did all this become so complicated and expensive?  Use to be, my turntable & Sony CD player, just two pieces of audio gear, was all I needed for enjoyable sound reproduction, along with amp and speakers of course.  Now I need 3x as many boxes plus cables just for sound reproduction before we even get to my amplifier, and then not mentioning the costs.  

So Ladies and gentlemen, we be caught in the audio hamster wheel of endless expenditures thus we need to think before spending our hard earned money on vapor-ware.  🙏


----------



## AlanU (May 29, 2021)

]eep said:


> many of the devices on the audiophonics page are just usb interfaces. And the info is often more (dumbed down) marketing than that it explains what it does so I can glean from it if it's an improvement. Also, most real reclockers deliver an i²s output that the Ares doesn't have. I would like to maintain DSD functionality so I would prefer a usb output. It's all rather complex technical material, not really consumer level. That is why I skipped a lot of Srajan Ebaens technical reviews on 6-Moons. It's like learning a new language (again!).
> 
> As I was searching I found Srajans review of the Denafrips DDC's where also others are mentioned (Mutec). It's an interesting read with lots of information. I'm still reading but I am sure it will be interesting as an upgrade to the Ares; yes or no.
> https://6moons.com/audioreview_articles/denafrips5/


I was wondering about "Also, most real reclockers deliver an i²s output that the Ares doesn't have"

You will notice that many brands will use their own proprietary pin outs for the HDMI Cable for I2S. I am assuming Mutec decided to keep the I2S ports out of the MC-3+USB due to no world standard.

If you buy a flagship Denafrips Ghia and try to connect it to an Aqua acoustic $20,000 Formula Flagship DAC.......You may get rather annoyed. Compatibility is all over the map in audio gear at this moment.

Srajan is very poetic in his reviews. He's very good at creating reviews as many are contracted $$$$$$$$$$ to perform their duties as a magazine/author.

When I hear people discussing MQA or 32 bit requirements. This indicates to me that they are very unlikely to have experienced hardcore source cleanses of jitter. I am listening to 24/192 often and the transparency of the music with my re-clocking DDC units (2 mutecs) is the most enjoyable playback I've ever hear in my 2 channel system.

I will have to say that comparing ROON and Audirvana. Something is special with Audirvana and Roon is just "AVERAGE" in my system. Recently spoke to a friend of mine that also runs cascaded Mutec's. He also agrees that he's sonically heard the identical SQ qualities using Audirvana. This is interesting as I've had some people dicuss with me that they cannot hear a difference between ROON and Audirvana. Now I am questioning how quality of source and transparency of a system in how it reveals music playback.

I would appreciate actual precision re-clocked signal at 24/192 data to my DAC  vs using asynchronous usb with unfolded MQA mediocre sound or 32 bit higher res.

I was never resistant in diving into DDC reclock units. I am now seriously kicking myself that I never did that a long time ago. Once you own  a high quality re-clocking DDC, I would say you will have severe difficulties removing it. 

Gather some friends (after Covid). Find a dirt cheap Burson DA-160 and feed it a mutec DDC via coax. Compare it to your usual 1-3++++ grand dacs from every make using USB cable.  You will need to pick your jaw up from the ground as you will not understand why something so inexpensive and ancient "Burson" sound more musical and detailed as your typical Toppings, SMSL, Chord, Mhdt, Bryston, PS audio, Bel canto, ifi, music fidelity etc etc.

If you own a glaring Project-prebox S2 usb DAC...try feeding it a Mutec. Suddenly that edgy glare is more controlled with less digital glare. Just understand that DAC quality still counts but now feeding a clean square wave will maximized the SQ from any DAC.  

Compare a Mutec + ARES II vs usb fed Pontus II. Things will be different. Just remember when you buy a re-clocking DDC you should NOT include that cost with the DAC. You are really treating garbage computer signals. However, my point is that suddenly an Ares can run side by side many other much more $$$$$$ dacs on the market.

Now feed that Pontus with a Mutec. Again...things will start to sound "better and different".

All cases,  you will NOT hear much digital glare as it's been resolved by the re-clocker.  A cheaper digitally edgy DAC will suddenly relax and become more musical. A higher end dac will now be able to reach further in Toe tapping and refinements that's been hindered by GARBAGE streamer/laptop signals.

MQA or 32 bit has NEVER reached closer to vinyl status. To get digital to a higher state in sound, factually speaking the signal must be rid of the noise. Noise/Jitter = cheap sounding digital music. Possibly bold for me to say but if you cannot reach serious audio bliss from 24/192,  this indicates you will NEVER achieve bliss with higher resolution data using the same gear.

If you love ARES II and yearn for a Venus II or Terminator +..........Do yourself a favour and start with the basics. Almost majority here that reads my babbles are neglecting the fundamentals of digital music streaming. Not a matter of thinking out of the box. I am suggesting treating the problem and not pray for improvements by buying a new dac, or normal "typical" DDC that does NOT re-clock.

If you really dig the ARES sound. You have not even tapped into it's potential feeding it garbage usb jitter from an inexpensive streamer/laptop...... seriously!


----------



## AlanU

daytrader said:


> When did all this become so complicated and expensive?  Use to be, my turntable & Sony CD player, just two pieces of audio gear, was all I needed for enjoyable sound reproduction, along with amp and speakers of course.  Now I need 3x as many boxes plus cables just for sound reproduction before we even get to my amplifier, and then not mentioning the costs.
> 
> So Ladies and gentlemen, we be caught in the audio hamster wheel of endless expenditures thus we need to think before spending our hard earned money on vapor-ware.  🙏


Well the "early years" people did NOT have this kind of information. They never understood how terrible CD players can sound unless they put that player on an "isolation platform/sand box". Even back in the day companies started to create jitter "killers" as they finally understood how timing of data from a CD is critical in sound quality.

I opened up a can of worms. I see people indicating they MUST buy a higher end Venus/Terminator to keep up with the joneses. I am stating that many year have NO IDEA how critical Re-clocking the data stream for digital applications when converting square to audiofile grade sine wave. 

Follow the basics,  be somewhat happy with your audio investment. When people create their mature system they've compiled, enhance the system with the power of logical facts. 

If someone thinks bandaids of buying a more expensive dac is the solution......great!!  Indeed DACS to have their own personalities. However, if you truly appreciate the quality of the sound of the ARES......... Don't take that DAC as face value feeding it jitter. 

Mutec (proprietary denafrips DDC) + identical Ares DAC + identical integrated amp + Identical speakers will sound better than someone owning the identical Ares DAC + identical integrated amp + Identical speakers.

Not much of a drastic difference in streamers in the $1000-3000 range. Why? they are all non re-clocking audio grade computers outputting relatively clean digital stream source. Go ahead and test a Raspberry pi4 with coax - hat with a $3000 streamer.....marginal difference due to no moving parts in either unit. $3000 streamer will have a nicer user interface. 

I will assure you that in due time you'll see a lot of FEMTO Clock this and FEMTO clock that, re-clock this and that!!! Everyone will jump on the bandwagon soon due to awareness. People like me are making others aware of jitter garbage ruining ultimate ease and analog enjoyment from a digital source.


----------



## Lolito

daytrader said:


> When did all this become so complicated and expensive?  Use to be, my turntable & Sony CD player, just two pieces of audio gear, was all I needed for enjoyable sound reproduction, along with amp and speakers of course.  Now I need 3x as many boxes plus cables just for sound reproduction before we even get to my amplifier, and then not mentioning the costs.
> 
> So Ladies and gentlemen, we be caught in the audio hamster wheel of endless expenditures thus we need to think before spending our hard earned money on vapor-ware.  🙏


Dear Napoles friend, this is like everything. I have a tuned ipos with a tuned hd25 cans, and that's all i need, and boy, sounds so really good actually.

The rest is hobby, not so complicated really, this is like making great espresso in napoles, those machines cost money my friend. and the knowledge to use them properly. So an ARES2, great dac, but gotta research how it works best, etc... maybe that 150€ chinese usb to toslink thing from china or audiophonics, has linear psu... Maybe it cleans the usb problems fine?? maybe it is the best companion for an ARES2? You tell me. I am sure the one of 999€ works perfectly, but hey, it is 999€. 150€ on the other hand, if it cleans 90% of what the other cleans... I would be a happy camper. If it makes the ares2 more holographic, then why not?


why not?



AlanU said:


> I was wondering about "Also, most real reclockers deliver an i²s output that the Ares doesn't have"
> 
> You will notice that many brands will use their own proprietary pin outs for the HDMI Cable for I2S. I am assuming Mutec decided to keep the I2S ports out of the MC-3+USB due to no world standard.
> 
> ...


which ones are the non-reclocking DDC's? to separate them. The one of 150€ has golden clocks and linear PSU. I am sure your 999€ german mutec is better, but it costs 999€ to clean a usb signal, those are a lot of concerts sir, 999€ to clean a usb signal, my god... I think 300€ max max to clean a usb signal is more than enough cost, I bought a linear PSU for my dac, 50€ shipped or so... no need to spend so much mate, Merkel has already a lot of my money.


----------



## ]eep

daytrader said:


> When did all this become so complicated and expensive?  Use to be, my turntable & Sony CD player, just two pieces of audio gear, was all I needed for enjoyable sound reproduction, along with amp and speakers of course.  Now I need 3x as many boxes plus cables just for sound reproduction before we even get to my amplifier, and then not mentioning the costs.
> 
> So Ladies and gentlemen, we be caught in the audio hamster wheel of endless expenditures thus we need to think before spending our hard earned money on vapor-ware.  🙏


it is because you got older and wiser and more and more sophisticated in finding information. Fun fact: read some Ian Fleming (James Bond) books, he is already discussing the merits of different kinds of steel needles. So that means 78's! It has always been complicated and elitist. Only now the technological progress is more out in the open (for as long as the open internet will be tolerated) and hobbyist can contribute alongside professionals. 

You say 2 pieces of gear but remember starting with an Akai cassette deck, then a tuner, then a Dual turntable and much layer a Philips cd player that was the cheapest model yet same price as my fancy Dual. And it sounded like crap. I kept buying more and more expensive models and they never gave me much joy beyond the 'honeymoon period'. Even with my upscale Audio Note tubeamp and LS3/5a's (later Reference 3A) speakers and the waning lp availability it totally made me lose interest in audio. Until I discovered cheap modifyable Chinese products. And with it came a steep learning curve. But with it came a huge , huge decline in cost while the sound got better and better. My old audio advisor (dealer) retired recently and I am buying, modifying and building my own stuff now. I'm now listening to my new speakers, fullrange dipoles with AMT supertweeters with a unique filter I designed myself. And I Iove them. Not just because they're my babies but because they sound so good. 

I know not everyone can do this, but an informed consumer tends to buy at lower cost and gets better results. Knowledge IS power. It's actually the same with democracy in our current situation. A republic needs informed and emancipated citizens. Lemmings will end up working at home in the hamster wheel, own nothing and be 'happy'. (ref to Klaus Swab WEF)


----------



## Lolito

]eep said:


> it is because you got older and wiser and more and more sophisticated in finding information. Fun fact: read some Ian Fleming (James Bond) books, he is already discussing the merits of different kinds of steel needles. So that means 78's! It has always been complicated and elitist. Only now the technological progress is more out in the open (for as long as the open internet will be tolerated) and hobbyist can contribute alongside professionals.
> 
> You say 2 pieces of gear but remember starting with an Akai cassette deck, then a tuner, then a Dual turntable and much layer a Philips cd player that was the cheapest model yet same price as my fancy Dual. And it sounded like crap. I kept buying more and more expensive models and they never gave me much joy beyond the 'honeymoon period'. Even with my upscale Audio Note tubeamp and LS3/5a's (later Reference 3A) speakers and the waning lp availability it totally made me lose interest in audio. Until I discovered cheap modifyable Chinese products. And with it came a steep learning curve. But with it came a huge , huge decline in cost while the sound got better and better. My old audio advisor (dealer) retired recently and I am buying, modifying and building my own stuff now. I'm now listening to my new speakers, fullrange dipoles with AMT supertweeters with a unique filter I designed myself. And I Iove them. Not just because they're my babies but because they sound so good.
> 
> I know not everyone can do this, but an informed consumer tends to buy at lower cost and gets better results. Knowledge IS power. It's actually the same with democracy in our current situation. A republic needs informed and emancipated citizens. Lemmings will end up working at home in the hamster wheel, own nothing and be 'happy'. (ref to Klaus Swab WEF)


saturday drinking eh?


----------



## daytrader (May 29, 2021)

Lolito said:


> saturday drinking eh?


Now, now, a drink can make a Saturday night listening session even more enjoyable! 🥃


----------



## equalspeace (May 30, 2021)

......


----------



## Guidostrunk

daytrader said:


> Now, now, a drink can make a Saturday night listening session even more enjoyable! 🥃


Absolutely! 😂🍻


----------



## AlanU (May 30, 2021)

Lolito said:


> which ones are the non-reclocking DDC's? to separate them. The one of 150€ has golden clocks and linear PSU. I am sure your 999€ german mutec is better, but it costs 999€ to clean a usb signal, those are a lot of concerts sir, 999€ to clean a usb signal, my god... I think 300€ max max to clean a usb signal is more than enough cost, I bought a linear PSU for my dac, 50€ shipped or so... no need to spend so much mate, Merkel has already a lot of my money.


You can purchase an extremely affordable Toppings D10(s) to work as a USB to SPDIF (rca or toslink) output.

There are many ways to attempt to improve performance in a DAC. There are components like the Schiit _Wyrd  but some say it's useless. Wyred4Sound has a re-clocker. Holo Audio Titanis is another inexpensive bolt on that has merits.  Sometimes collectively combining several components will help clean source.

Purchasing an expensive USB cable can help. This is where possibly a higher quality boutique cable can reject noise better. This is where some assume a passive wire can fix dirty signal. So much has changed in modern day  streaming knowledge in the digital streaming world. _

I have tried different DDC like the galvanically isolated Resonessence Labs Concero HD (as DDC), April Music Stello U3, Toppings D10s and (s). Stello U3 sounded warm and clouded details while the rest was transparent and clean. All worked well in performance. All did NOT remove digital glare because those units do not re-clock.

Adding linear power supplies do help in sonics. For example the Mytek Liberty or Brooklyn+ sound terrible without one. Using the mediocre switching power supplies certainly hinders SQ. This is why it's worthy to purchase a clean Linear power supply for that product. This is where a linear power supply is not "fixing" the source streaming data being fed to the digital to analog stage.

Denafrips puts effort into cleaning input stage of Pontus, Venus and Terminator because they know this is taking care of the primary problem with D to A conversion.

At this point in time the overseas market hasn't taken hold of this area in illegally replicating ccts and design. In due time such re-clockers will be cheap around the world.
When that time comes people will open their eyes and achieve almost "end game" status in ultra low jitter. We are still in the infancy of the "realities" of how crucial Digital DATA  is to D to A music reproduction.  Observe how my post has created "questions".

Oddly,  I entice thought yet many are still assuming the only path of analog bliss is to buy a much higher end Venus or Terminator. Indeed such dacs are more involved in R&D and higher in the audio food chain. However, eventually when people understand jitter reduction, buying an SMSL M400 and feeding it ultra low jitter may be hitting endgame status vs buying a 3-10++ grand DAC.

I am stating such a thing is because amongst people I know and personal experience, it's ridiculously obvious in sonic improvements by emphasizing on cleaning "Source".

999€ is not chump change. Reproduced music cannot easily replace real live concerts. Due to Covid, I'm not cool with high density concerts now, possibly ever. In home, I have now achieved a certain level of SQ that satisfies me. The journey has not hit endgame for me but it's at the point of still picking up my jaw off the ground.

From auditioning  DACS I know cannot take it as face value as I know the source is contaminated with jitter garbage. So if you've played with Denafrips, Border Patrol, MHDT Lab, IFI NEO IDSD, RME, Toppings, SMSL, FIIO, CHORD, Bryson, Simaudio......the typical and usual suspects. Garbage "in" will always = garbage out,  not matter the brand. These are facts we cannot ignore anymore. So my knowledge of clean source will NEVER RATE a dac until I feed it "ideal" input source.

Compare a Bryston BDA3 (under 4 grand) to a SMSL M400 (1 grand). Different DACS and some may be envious of the owner ship of the 4 grand dac. Both DACS will become more fluid and relaxed with analog real world ease with a re-clocking DDC. Personally speaking this is something I can say is impossible with a Schiit Eatr DDC or any regular DDC. Painfully creating endgame in purchasing a re-clocking DDC can make the ARES II possibly almost endgame happiness. Such a combo of Mutec/Ares II can elevate you to audio bliss and make the Bryston BDA3 sound like a hyper detailed fatiguing expensive DAC. 

If you own an ARES II and feel it will go to the buy/sell forums to upgrade to a Venus ii. I strongly urge you to work on your source "cleanse" first.

People........fix the problem directly. This is where I suggest upgrading in the DAC after. Pontus, venus and Terminator with a single stage is attempting to clean the source input problem internally in the DAC. 

Either buy a streamer/server with ultra low jitter with involved cct and design to re-clock signal or use a CHEAPER streamer/laptop and downstream 100% fix the problem by reducing Jitter with a Reclocking DDC. Truly not complicated at all.

NOTE: all of the SQ improvements is from downstream. The SQ analog bliss improvements is coming from the re-clocking DDC....NOT the laptop/streamer.

Interesting how many feel it's the DAC that is the most major sound changer. It's the tool that translates "dirty or clean" source!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Chain of events is crucial in digital. You can always run out and buy a $500-20K DAC. Only the latter will have the high tech input cleanse of jitter. Have you ever heard a cheaper  DAC fed with amazing ultra low jitter signal? The answer to most is "NO". I will say you do not know what you are missing.......Once you experience such a thing you'll be in for a shock.


----------



## Lolito

AlanU said:


> You can purchase an extremely affordable Toppings D10(s) to work as a USB to SPDIF (rca or toslink) output.
> 
> There are many ways to attempt to improve performance in a DAC. There are components like the Schiit _Wyrd  but some say it's useless. Wyred4Sound has a re-clocker. Holo Audio Titanis is another inexpensive bolt on that has merits.  Sometimes collectively combining several components will help clean source.
> 
> ...


I agree to all that, but you just keep avoiding the problem; let's find a DDC with reclocking, one that is good quality, good clocks, good price and good performance an reliability... As you write yourself, once asia picks up on this, it will be cheap. If the german version is 999€, taxes included, china can do that for 200€ easy, maybe 300€ at the beginning. 

So, what woudl be a cheaper alternative than those 999€. The one for audiophonics france costs 150€ has clocks and 9 positive reviews.... 150€.

I repeat for the 5th time, 999€ usb reclcoker and cleaner, amazing, great, let's find one for 300€, because 300€ better than 999€, ok? for the poor people like me. thanks!!!!


----------



## Lolito

This one has two of those golden clocks, not sure if they are good or not, linear power supply, and usb input, several outputs, 150€, easily available, good reviews... is there any thread in this forum about it?

I think this is perfect match for ARES2, pricewise and connection wise, since ARES will only take the toslink. That will be the limit in resolution then, the bottle neck.
ARES 3 we need...


https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/digi...i2s-aes-2x-tcxo-otg-24bit-192khz-p-10547.html


----------



## joseG86

So I bought into the hype and got myself an Ares II... I've got pretty much an end game setup already but for 500€ it was worth a try. I've read and watched so many stuff about it that I feel I already have it lol

If it improves over my BF2 then I'll finally end my non-stop burn of money


----------



## Slade01

joseG86 said:


> So I bought into the hype and got myself an Ares II... I've got pretty much an end game setup already but for 500€ it was worth a try. I've read and watched so many stuff about it that I feel I already have it lol
> 
> If it improves over my BF2 then I'll finally end my non-stop burn of money



I don't know if it necessarily is an "improvement" over a BF2 but will look forward to your impressions if you choose to share a comparison between the two in the future.   Some friends who have had both say it equates to different flavors but equally good.


----------



## AlanU

Lolito said:


> I agree to all that, but you just keep avoiding the problem; let's find a DDC with reclocking, one that is good quality, good clocks, good price and good performance an reliability... As you write yourself, once asia picks up on this, it will be cheap. If the german version is 999€, taxes included, china can do that for 200€ easy, maybe 300€ at the beginning.
> 
> So, what woudl be a cheaper alternative than those 999€. The one for audiophonics france costs 150€ has clocks and 9 positive reviews.... 150€.
> 
> I repeat for the 5th time, 999€ usb reclcoker and cleaner, amazing, great, let's find one for 300€, because 300€ better than 999€, ok? for the poor people like me. thanks!!!!


Possibly look into a Singxer SU-1 or SU-2. I have no experience with this brand. That's a reasonably priced unit. 

If your Dac or "cleaning DDC unit" does not have USB galvanic isolation between the noisy computer/streamer, it's a bridge to transfer noise into the DAC input.

Note that a unit's specs can be good but you must also deal with the weakest link. This weakness will be the quality of the cable's ability to reject noise. There is some talk of the shortest length coax as possible to retain the clock signal vs the older theory of 1.5 meters being the ideal length to prevent reflection/noise of signal. 

After playing with USB or Coax, I have no desire to go USB/32bit at this moment. I'd suggest using the reclocking DDC to inject precise clock into a coax before using USB.

I fully understand that extremely high quality DDC re-clocking devices are expensive. If you use a high quality re-clocking DDC it will provide you excellent performance out of a lower cost ARES II DAC. I'd be bold to say it'll sound as good as a Pontus II using garbage usb signal. 

The DDC device is just as critical as the DAC. If not more important. It's easier to hit audiofile grade "end game" cleaning of jitter buying a re-clocking DDC. You have more time in the world to choose a DAC. Just like camera gear, Pro grade lenses are forever and camera bodies come and go. In audio,  having ultra clean signal is forever your goal and DACS are like going to an ice cream parlor......flavours, flavours and flavours. I like classic vanilla but don't care for strawberry. I don't care for Chord Dacs but i'd take a well implemented R2R or well designed non fatiguing musical dac. However, you MUST ALWAYS feed any dac with the best possible signal. 

I'd take my ancient (almost threw it out) Burson DA-160 fed with Mutec over a Toppings D90 MQA fed with garbage usb jitter. If you look at the "price" of the DAC , the DA-160 can be purchased currently for the cost of 10 cheese burgers. Never did I think an 10+++ yrs outdated Burr Brown 1793 chipset  can sound so musical and "well detailed" and oddly holographic like a detailed vinyl rig.  

What you must realize is that you can analyze DACS based on it's pure performance. Many dacs fed with Jitter sounds edgy. This is where a more $$ dac can possibly "mask" jitter and still provide very good performance...... um um the Ares II.  Give that little guy the same help Denafrips did to Pontus, Venus and Terminator and the playing field levels off a bit. I know that lower end dacs are there for strategic business lineup of products. I also know as a fact that a little brother ( or a DAC that I was going to throw out) can suddenly elevate to a much much higher level.....it's that obvious.

I separate the cost of DDC and DAC. I justify the cost of a DDC as a different system. Cost of DAC and performance ratio suddenly will change when it's fed treated source.


----------



## simon740

Hello,

I’m still a little scared if Ares II would fit well with my Exposure 3010S2D amp. Due to the input impedance. 17K Ohms minimum (line input).
I am choosing between Ares II and RME ADI-2 DAC FS.

regards,
Simon


----------



## NehPets

simon740 said:


> Hello,
> 
> I’m still a little scared if Ares II would fit well with my Exposure 3010S2D amp. Due to the input impedance. 17K Ohms minimum (line input).
> I am choosing between Ares II and RME ADI-2 DAC FS.
> ...


At 27x the Ares II output impedance, I don't think you need to worry.


----------



## sajunky

simon740 said:


> Hello,
> 
> I’m still a little scared if Ares II would fit well with my Exposure 3010S2D amp. Due to the input impedance. 17K Ohms minimum (line input).
> I am choosing between Ares II and RME ADI-2 DAC FS.


Ares is fine in general, better Audio GD R-1 2021 version.  Accusilicon 318B fem-to-second clocks come now standard (that alone cover a cost difference to Ares) and no reclocking on USB port, I2S port for adding DDC later, low impedance output. 

ADI-2 require a major decision in a different direction.


----------



## joseG86

So I got the Ares II and 30 minutes on, came in already burnt by original owner.

I usually listen to live music (classic, jazz, opera etc) so for me NOS mode is the best by far in my sistem: Organic, texturized, female vocals with 0 sibilance (I usually hear sibilances with sopranos), treble doesn't bright at all, bass just the right amount. Instruments feel real, everything sounds like it is supposed to sound if I was in there IRL, pure realism.

Very engaging so far, cannot compare to BF2 yet but this doesn't disappoint, not one bit. I'll let it on 24/7 now and see how improves with time 

One question: Do you think the unscrew tricks from the German Audiophile on YT is worth it?

Cheers


----------



## sajunky

@joseG86. Don't do anything till sound open up to your ears, be patient.


----------



## AlanU

joseG86 said:


> So I got the Ares II and 30 minutes on, came in already burnt by original owner.
> 
> I usually listen to live music (classic, jazz, opera etc) so for me NOS mode is the best by far in my sistem: Organic, texturized, female vocals with 0 sibilance (I usually hear sibilances with sopranos), treble doesn't bright at all, bass just the right amount. Instruments feel real, everything sounds like it is supposed to sound if I was in there IRL, pure realism.
> 
> ...


Try anti-vibration with darko's suggestion of door stop weights.



Or some traditional hardcore folks would remove the top of the unit or put the unit on top of a sandbox platform. 

Recently I installed kernal streaming Audirvana Studio...................... I use Roon and Audirvana 3.5 (lifetime license).  Roon has a fantastic "Roon Radio" but the SQ is utter average bland compared to Audirvana. The Audirvana Studio provides a more wrap around sound stage and the layers and depth is superb. It's truly one of the best software for streaming Tidal IMO experience. I'm trialing for free but for the subscription cost, it's a no brainer as it destroys Roon's sound quality output. 

I will retain roon simply for it's incredible Roon Radio.

Lately I've been listening to 16/44.1 resolution and it's one of the most holographic, highly musical and detailed sound I've ever produced with my 2 channel. This is a software I'd urge anyone to test for free using their current dacs.


----------



## daytrader

AlanU said:


> Try anti-vibration with darko's suggestion of door stop weights.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## daytrader

I‘ve had my stuff on and off anti-vibration materials a plenty, TT & Digital still do.  But who really knows? Don’t be to crazy about it is my advise. I’ve read opinions on both sides of this coin.  But if you must Amazon is your best low cost friend and if you can hear a difference then go after the pricey stuff.


----------



## ]eep

joseG86 said:


> So I got the Ares II and 30 minutes on, came in already burnt by original owner.
> 
> I usually listen to live music (classic, jazz, opera etc) so for me NOS mode is the best by far in my sistem: Organic, texturized, female vocals with 0 sibilance (I usually hear sibilances with sopranos), treble doesn't bright at all, bass just the right amount. Instruments feel real, everything sounds like it is supposed to sound if I was in there IRL, pure realism.
> 
> ...


I've watched a lot of videos from them and they seem pretty knowledgeable only this makes scratch my head. Why would that work? Tension on the pcb? I know that some things can produce strange results. Like screwing open a case, look at the inside to see that there's nothing wrong, close it up again and yet... it sounds different somehow!? So what happened, what changed? Is it suggestion. Listening, really active listening can be very difficult because often you don't have a baseline. Or forget. What I'm saying is; it could be true but I very much doubt it. 

On the other hand, after I openened a case and I close it up again usually it objectively sounds a lot better. But that is because I change out parts that make a significant difference. I still have not done that to the Ares because I suspect I have nothing to work with (to small smd parts for my limited soldering skil/-station). But I know for a fact that the Ares is good, but not endgame when it comes to sustained piano notes and sopranos. I haven't found the cure yet.


----------



## joseG86

]eep said:


> I've watched a lot of videos from them and they seem pretty knowledgeable only this makes scratch my head. Why would that work? Tension on the pcb? I know that some things can produce strange results. Like screwing open a case, look at the inside to see that there's nothing wrong, close it up again and yet... it sounds different somehow!? So what happened, what changed? Is it suggestion. Listening, really active listening can be very difficult because often you don't have a baseline. Or forget. What I'm saying is; it could be true but I very much doubt it.
> 
> On the other hand, after I openened a case and I close it up again usually it objectively sounds a lot better. But that is because I change out parts that make a significant difference. I still have not done that to the Ares because I suspect I have nothing to work with (to small smd parts for my limited soldering skil/-station). But I know for a fact that the Ares is good, but not endgame when it comes to sustained piano notes and sopranos. I haven't found the cure yet.


Pleasure to read you mate, I can't really believe getting any extra performance by unscrewing anything, I could only think of a possible alternate leak and unwanted noise

I fixed the piano thing with a DC coupled amp called Kinki THR-1, I play piano and if the recording is good enough I don't miss anything in any note, sopranos is a different story... I think there's only a few really good recordings of sopranos, I cannot now but I'm sure it depends on our ears and their sensitivity to those pitch notes


----------



## Lolito

AlanU said:


> Try anti-vibration with darko's suggestion of door stop weights.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



i use audirvana also on my mac, better sound than itunes, and you can eq. the new audirvana estudio I have not checked it just yet.


----------



## Lolito (Jun 1, 2021)

The weight on top makes the device vibration much smaller. Every single electronic device in this world has a vibration, speacilly these ones with so much watts and power and electrical connections to the wall, not tiny little batteries. How much it vibrates, very very little. and then, everything is microphonic, in a way or another. When you listen to interviews with engineers who built these devices, not audiophiles on youtube but engineers who earn a saliry by actually designing devices that have to be sold afterwards, they mention both things; everything with electricity vibrates, and where there is a cable there is a microphone. That's why audiophiles prefer heavy stuff, will vibrate much less...

Can it be heard? probably not really, can't A/B it properly I think really, but all in all, it's the little things, when you have done 20 little things, it will sound better, no matter if you notice it or not. You certainly will feel it if it does sound better.


----------



## daytrader (Jun 1, 2021)

]eep said:


> I've watched a lot of videos from them and they seem pretty knowledgeable only this makes scratch my head. Why would that work? Tension on the pcb? I know that some things can produce strange results. Like screwing open a case, look at the inside to see that there's nothing wrong, close it up again and yet... it sounds different somehow!? So what happened, what changed? Is it suggestion. Listening, really active listening can be very difficult because often you don't have a baseline. Or forget. What I'm saying is; it could be true but I very much doubt it.
> 
> On the other hand, after I openened a case and I close it up again usually it objectively sounds a lot better. But that is because I change out parts that make a significant difference. I still have not done that to the Ares because I suspect I have nothing to work with (to small smd parts for my limited soldering skil/-station). But I know for a fact that the Ares is good, but not endgame when it comes to sustained piano notes and sopranos. I haven't found the cure yet.


The funny thing about loosing things up is we’ve always heard that “how well made and solid“ products are is a good indication of  potential sound quality and product design.  Equipment that bends, shakes and squeaks is a sign of “not well made”.  As an example, ever taken apart really hi-end equipment?  Power tools are needed.  Oh well, maybe it’s just throw more idiosyncrasies into the audio soup psyche. LOL

But I’m guess tolerances and screw torque if it would impact sq would be addressed and adjusted to a specific standard during early listening evaluation and design?   But what the hell do I know, I’m still using tube audio gear, and love that 2nd harmonic distortion value that many others just call bad measurements.


----------



## ]eep

daytrader said:


> The funny thing about loosing things up is we’ve always heard that “how well made and solid“ products are is a good indication of  potential sound quality and product design.  Equipment that bends, shakes and squeaks is a sign of “not well made”.  As an example, ever taken apart really hi-end equipment?  Power tools are needed.  Oh well, maybe it’s just throw more idiosyncrasies into the audio soup psyche. LOL
> 
> But I’m guess tolerances and screw torque if it would impact sq would be addressed and adjusted to a specific standard during early listening evaluation and design?   But what the hell do I know, I’m still using tube audio gear, and love that 2nd harmonic distortion value that many others just call bad measurements.


yup, there's a lot to say about that. But always remember that correlation does not  equal causation. Something that is often confused. Often it doesn't. Meaning that normally a solid look means it is well engineered and well made with dedication and craftsmanship. Mass-market products usually cut corners everywhere to maximize profits. So in this case it does as in most experiences you can tell from the looks of it if it's shabby or chic. 

In the last decade as Chinese manufacture is catching up often the engineering on the inside wasn't up to par with the exterior. But that was in stark contrast with, let's say, British engineering where the sound was excellent and the looks were... erm... eccentric. As long as it works. Like English sportscars. Or Italian. 

In my opinion Denafrips has a good balance where you get a well engineered piece of equipment that has the looks to match. As it should be.


----------



## TheRealDz

AlanU said:


> You can purchase an extremely affordable Toppings D10(s) to work as a USB to SPDIF (rca or toslink) output.
> 
> There are many ways to attempt to improve performance in a DAC. There are components like the Schiit _Wyrd  but some say it's useless. Wyred4Sound has a re-clocker. Holo Audio Titanis is another inexpensive bolt on that has merits.  Sometimes collectively combining several components will help clean source.
> 
> ...


I am confused here;  is the Ares capable of being reclocked?  It only has coax/toslink/USB inputs, but no external clock input.


----------



## Lolito

TheRealDz said:


> I am confused here;  is the Ares capable of being reclocked?  It only has coax/toslink/USB inputs, but no external clock input.


probably not then, but a real expert should confirm that, I have no glue, the guy of the german ddc reclocked can answer you.


----------



## TheRealDz

Lolito said:


> probably not then, but a real expert should confirm that, I have no glue, the guy of the german ddc reclocked can answer you.


I see...you have no glue. 😁

So many of these products claim to "regenerate" and "reclock" the signal, but I don't think many do what AlanU means. 

@AlanU would I be better off with a Topping D10 vs my Schiit Eitr?


----------



## Kromen

TheRealDz said:


> I see...you have no glue. 😁
> 
> So many of these products claim to "regenerate" and "reclock" the signal, but I don't think many do what AlanU means.
> 
> @AlanU would I be better off with a Topping D10 vs my Schiit Eitr?


I tested both, and IMO Schiit Eitr is vastly superior to topping as ddc.


----------



## AlanU

TheRealDz said:


> I see...you have no glue. 😁
> 
> So many of these products claim to "regenerate" and "reclock" the signal, but I don't think many do what AlanU means.
> 
> @AlanU would I be better off with a Topping D10 vs my Schiit Eitr?


The Mutec MC-3+ USB is a different build internally to the older MC-3+ model. 

Shiit Eitr is now discontinued. In the pre-owned market those units will be seen from time to time. 

D10(s) and Eitr to my knowledge is your typical ddc converter. Sonically it can be "different" but you will not receive a precise clock signal as it' not stripping the clock from the original source. So essentially the "x" axis will NOT have the precision like a Re-clocking DDC. Key point of all of  this discussion is that ARES II is just a great non reclocking input dac. What's the beauty?? Buy any good brand re-clocking DDC in the future and you will honestly think you bought a brand new higher end dac.


----------



## AlanU (Jun 2, 2021)

TheRealDz said:


> I am confused here;  is the Ares capable of being reclocked?  It only has coax/toslink/USB inputs, but no external clock input.


With a Mutec MC-3+ USB model  (or Denafrips/other brands) Re-clocking DDC you can feed the ARES II a re-clocked Toslink or Coax. USB DAC will use the asyncronous usb connection so it's a matter of the internal design of the DAC.

I'll take Coax any day over USB input.

With a decent Toslink connection between my Mutec and DAC, I find the SQ to be excellent as $$$ Coax. Mind you that you are maxed out 24/192.   Listening to many DACS on the market I'll certainly take a high quality COAX cable  due to the clock signal generated from a precision clock of a re-clocking DDC. I still feel the preservation of clock signal is better with Coax vs toslink (concerned of brittle information highway) I have zero interest in I2S or USB at this moment.

When I2S adopts a universal standard I'll dive into that setup. In the meantime I dare headfi audio geeks to test out Audirvana Studio (kernal streaming) and simply run native. I'm currently running a trial of that software and using 16/44.1 and it's truly the best SQ I've ever achieved with my 2 channel. Holographic detail has improved using the same dac.

RealIDz, there is many ways to skin a cat. Just understand that if you love ARES II now....... You have not even touched it's potential just yet.

If you listen to average source providing MQA  or 32 bit high res and compare it to an excellent Re-clocked maxed out 24/192 via coax/toslink. I'd be confident that you will never use USB again.......I feel usb is an inferior form of streaming data for music application. Yes rather bold to say but I have others in 2 channel world that will accept the proprietary Re-clocked I2S implementation or Coax. No yearning of 32 bit resolution from Usb,  even in very high end DACS.


----------



## sabloke

I'm using a Matrix Audio X-SPDIF 2 with a 9.0 V iFi iPower X power supply to feed my DAC over I2S. The improvement in sound quality and holographic detail is striking. I just got a decent coax cable, will give it a try, but I doubt it will improve over the HDMI one.


----------



## Lolito

sabloke said:


> I'm using a Matrix Audio X-SPDIF 2 with a 9.0 V iFi iPower X power supply to feed my DAC over I2S. The improvement in sound quality and holographic detail is striking. I just got a decent coax cable, will give it a try, but I doubt it will improve over the HDMI one.


what is your DAC buddy? the one on the avatar? just to confirm it...


----------



## Lolito

AlanU said:


> With a Mutec MC-3+ USB model  (or Denafrips/other brands) Re-clocking DDC you can feed the ARES II a re-clocked Toslink or Coax. USB DAC will use the asyncronous usb connection so it's a matter of the internal design of the DAC.
> 
> I'll take Coax any day over USB input.
> 
> ...


Ok so please correct me if I am wrong, so if you have a dac like an ARES, that does not take I2S, you can still feed it a re-clocked, so properly perfectly clocked COAX signal, coming from any great DDC converters, from noisy USB to clean and perfectly reclocked coax signal, even though the ARES will still use their own clcok to convert to analog... (since it has not I2S, right?).

If it was a DAC with I2S it would be possible to skip the DAC clock, feed it a perfectly clocked signal via I2S, and that signal would be converted to analog in that dac, without using the dac clock, just using the clocked timing coming from I2S from the DDC clock...

Is this correct? 

So feeding ARES2 with a perfectly clocked signal, even though we can not bypass ares2 clock, should improve the sound a bit... correct? hope it is clear now, interesting always to be able to improve further an already great product, with a little bit extra investment down the road, right? thanks for the expertise AlanU, by the way:

Aren't there opened threads about this in the forum so we can ask there? I have also sen cheap galvanic isolators that might provide some USB cleaning for little money... or comparing different DDC's performances or DAC pairing, that would be awesome.


----------



## sabloke

Lolito said:


> what is your DAC buddy? the one on the avatar? just to confirm it...


VENUS II. Had the Ares II and loved it so much I just had to upgrade and get more of that R2R goodness 😊


----------



## TheRealDz

So @AlanU given this is an Ares thread, and I intend to keep my Ares, what is the lowest price DDC you recommend? 

If I flip my Eitr, iFi Silencer and iPurifier, I may be able to swing a true reclocker...


----------



## TheRealDz

@sabloke , you have me intrigued by the Matrix.  The fact that it improves even your Venus is impressive.

What's the USB connection on the back? I would hate to have to budget for a new cable too...


----------



## sabloke (Jun 2, 2021)

Type A USB 2.0 cable works just fine with the X-SPDIF 2. I am using a nice Tschernov one, 700 mm long. The connector on the back of the X is USB 3.0 but no need for a cable to match it, especially when using an external power supply, in which case the bus power rails are disabled anyway.


----------



## AlanU

Lolito said:


> Ok so please correct me if I am wrong, so if you have a dac like an ARES, that does not take I2S, you can still feed it a re-clocked, so properly perfectly clocked COAX signal, coming from any great DDC converters, from noisy USB to clean and perfectly reclocked coax signal, even though the ARES will still use their own clcok to convert to analog... (since it has not I2S, right?).
> 
> If it was a DAC with I2S it would be possible to skip the DAC clock, feed it a perfectly clocked signal via I2S, and that signal would be converted to analog in that dac, without using the dac clock, just using the clocked timing coming from I2S from the DDC clock...
> 
> ...


Quick watch.....



Quick rundown on the importance of a precise clock. 

In my particular approach on source, I suggest looking at source as water. We can use purified by reverse osmosis or drink water that is clear as mud. In the end,  we are definitely able to process both types of water. I'm guessing most would prefer reverse osmosis purification. 

My opinion (please laugh or criticize) is that we all must start somewhere. We are creatures that typically want some type of upgrade path.

It's rather simple to almost create a setup of "endgame" status in cleaning square waves. DACS are the though decisions based on your ears and is extremely subjective. 

I2S is the new kid on the block that can pass higher resolution than Coax/toslink 24/192. Some may say I2S is superior to coax. If higher resolution is what you call "superior", I'd suggest engaging yourself with vinyl or serious high quality recordings of 16 or 24 bit. I'm still waiting for a world standard in I2S pinout. Once that happens I'll be a bit more flexible. Nice to use your standard HDMI cable ranging from 2 dollar to $1000++++

I've used the uptone usbRegen to attempt a cleanup of digital usb signal. Even with my particular setup it was not money well invested IMO. Purchased silent angel N8 audiograde ethernet switch with linear power supply. That was more of an eye opener in the "source cleanup" world  for my upstream cleanup efforts. 

If you have an ARES II I'd suggest cleaning up your upstream source instead of spending it on a higher end dac. My take on this approach is to have the best square wave signal as possible to MAXIMIZE downstream signal to dac. This way you can tap into maximum performance to any dac you ever buy. 

I've yet to hear anyone cascading the consumer grade Denafrips DDC product. The power of cascading is well known in the Mutec world. In reality I'd tell people to buy a re-clocking DDC any day before spending it on your average streamer product or "regular" DDC products. 

Cheap galvanic isolation usb devices might be a little tweak to eliminate noise transfer from a noisy laptop. 

If you analyze the youtube vid link, you'll see how your "ears" will determine the SQ change in tweaks. No doubt that when it comes to digital streaming, no dispute can be made that garbage clock signals truly damages sound quality. Buying a higher end denafrips is fine. You must wrap your brain that a Pontus/Venus/Terminator your buying a product that accepts garbage square waves and then re-clocks it inside the DAC. My point is spending money on a DAC is a great upgrade but incremental as your still feeding it garbage. 

If you drink clean water........ why feed your DAC mud 

Always consider that down the road a re-clocking DDC is not a useless or fruitless tweak. Once you start applying clean source, you'll soon hear more immediate changes if you are a tweaker in cables.  

Suddenly you might buy a lower priced affordable SMSL M400 akm chipset dac and feed it a ultra low jitter signal. You may just adore that sound signature over more $$$$$$$ DACS in the Denafrips line that simply "sounds different".


----------



## ]eep (Jun 3, 2021)

I am not going to watch the vid you linked because, simply; he irritates me. He might have some (*) good information but his voice is so jittery, flat and with a terrible accent (especially annoying for me from the same country, where the old generation didn't learn to speak English all that well). And his presentation is so booooring he is scaring everyone away from high quality audio.
* I say some because he isn't always correct and has blinders on on some topics. The graph on the video FI is misleading and incorrect. He shows a drop below minimum after two 00 so the next 1 isn't registered as a 1. Nice oversimplification but incorrect.

Also, as important clean power and clean signal are, lets not get ahead of ourselves. Even when the M400 has some nice femtoclocks and a topline AKM4499, it is still a sigma delta that produces very low voltage output. That needs proper I/V, filtering, buffering, amplification. All that muddies up your clear water again (to stick to the metaphor). And a lot more than the digital signal because its analog.


Oh, and i²s is superior because it seperates data L+R and clock for pcm and dsd and is fairly unlimited. Coax S/P-dif is an ancient protocol for routing a digital signal over a single wire alternating the data distributed over time so you need another translation. And then there's the 75 Ohm issue. So it's limited. It's ok for most music though. Better proper redbook than bad high-res.


----------



## Lolito

]eep said:


> I am not going to watch the vid you linked because, simply; he irritates me. He might have some (*) good information but his voice is so jittery, flat and with a terrible accent (especially annoying for me from the same country, where the old generation didn't learn to speak English all that well). And his presentation is so booooring he is scaring everyone away from high quality audio.
> * I say some because he isn't always correct and has blinders on on some topics. The graph on the video FI is misleading and incorrect. He shows a drop below minimum after two 00 so the next 1 isn't registered as a 1. Nice oversimplification but incorrect.
> 
> Also, as important clean power and clean signal are, lets not get ahead of ourselves. Even when the M400 has some nice femtoclocks and a topline AKM4499, it is still a sigma delta that produces very low voltage output. That needs proper I/V, filtering, buffering, amplification. All that muddies up your clear water again (to stick to the metaphor). And a lot more than the digital signal because its analog.
> ...


AlanU busted


----------



## TheRealDz

Perfect timing:

https://twitteringmachines.com/review-denafrips-iris-usb-digital-to-digital-converter/


----------



## AlanU

]eep said:


> I am not going to watch the vid you linked because, simply; he irritates me. He might have some (*) good information but his voice is so jittery, flat and with a terrible accent (especially annoying for me from the same country, where the old generation didn't learn to speak English all that well). And his presentation is so booooring he is scaring everyone away from high quality audio.
> * I say some because he isn't always correct and has blinders on on some topics. The graph on the video FI is misleading and incorrect. He shows a drop below minimum after two 00 so the next 1 isn't registered as a 1. Nice oversimplification but incorrect.
> 
> Also, as important clean power and clean signal are, lets not get ahead of ourselves. Even when the M400 has some nice femtoclocks and a topline AKM4499, it is still a sigma delta that produces very low voltage output. That needs proper I/V, filtering, buffering, amplification. All that muddies up your clear water again (to stick to the metaphor). And a lot more than the digital signal because its analog.
> ...


Hans is one the few people that have NOT sold out. He's very neutral and honest which is welcoming. Thomas and Stereo is another channel that is quite honest too.

Interesting you discuss "clean power". That is a topic I didn't want to get into too much as it's all dependent on the cleanliness of your local power grid, dedicated power line, power conditioning and connection of termination. Also a whole different topic on linear power supplies and manipulating frequency of the sine wave to modify tone........

As far as front end digital, it's rather simple. Eliminate  EMI with galvanic isolation and take care of the x and y axis of the square wave signal. Stable amplitude of the wave form as well as taking care of the x axis (precision timing) so it will deliver music as intended by the artist. Also hitting the re-clocked signal with a redundant process to even do more cleanes. I know this works as I've performed daisychain re-clocking and so have others I know. 

I'm not agains I2s. My concern is that Ares II DAC owners may get the impression that they are left out due to lack of I2S. Once I2S becomes a standard with identical pinouts I am not too excited about it. I've spent under 6 grand on DDC and audiograde ethernet switches. My DDC does not have I2S. When the time comes I'll dive into I2S when I find a worth DAC. I cannot limit myself in the Denafrips eco system to use proprietary pinouts and specific Denafrips DDC for I2S implementation. 

I demand a world standard for the I2s pinout so I can use a re-clocking ddc for any dac with I2S. This moment in time there is no such thing. 

75 ohm is not a limitation. I'll take a Tchernov Special coax and be floored in the cost/performance ratio. That cable alone runs lateral if not surpasses extremely expensive coax cables. 

I'm a person that looks at specs but I use my ears more. Look at a Berkely audio design alpha 3 dac. Looks wonderful and costs an arm and a leg. Let your ears tell you if a cheaper Ares II is more musical and has a flow of holographic enjoyment. 

If you have ever heard of a delta/sigma dac with cascaded  re-clocking DDC,  please inform us about the performance. I would take a 16/44.1 or 24/192 with re-clocked digital source than 32 bit. I2S has so much more bandwidth.  If you buy  into a Denafrips DDC and go with a Aqua dac or other I2S dacs the pinouts can be off and the Denafrips DDC is useless, however you can use the AES/toslink/coax iirc. 

People are all different. Many high end system users will prefer 24 bit or even 16. If you hear the natural state of analog flow with insane holographic imaging the extra upsample will not give you more. Infact, I am testing Audirvana studio and the analog flow and ease is much more engaging 16 bit than upsampled 24 bit. Try testing Diana Krall's live "a case you".

One thing to consider is that you will not own a DAC forever. Limiting on yourself  buying a $$$$ dac or DDC hoping I2S is the best is not versatile. I'd invest in a world standard or even older coax before I2S. That's my ears and experience with this stuff. In due time I'll spend a lot of money on I2S. That will be a no brainer but for now due to no standard.....no thank you


----------



## TheRealDz

Great comments, @AlanU. 

I am pretty sold on the Iris, but still considering the Matrix, SingXer, and Audio-GD units.  Sadly, the Gustard U16 is by far the lowest price, but that seems to be because of it's stability issues. 

If I understand it correctly (and maybe being overly optimistic), the Iris reclocking function plus the basic reclocking inherent in the Ares when connected via coax is a good thing, and kind of a poor man's daisy chained Mutec?


----------



## AlanU

TheRealDz said:


> Great comments, @AlanU.
> 
> I am pretty sold on the Iris, but still considering the Matrix, SingXer, and Audio-GD units.  Sadly, the Gustard U16 is by far the lowest price, but that seems to be because of it's stability issues.
> 
> If I understand it correctly (and maybe being overly optimistic), the Iris reclocking function plus the basic reclocking inherent in the Ares when connected via coax is a good thing, and kind of a poor man's daisy chained Mutec?


 We are all experimenting and on a journey. Key point is Re-clocking will be a common conversation in due time. I'm few that are totally vocal as I've personally experienced big sonic changes as well as other people with SUBSTANTIALLY more ultra high end gear. 

When you do purchase a good reclocker just close your eyes. You will IMMEDIATELY hear a lift in congestion. Suddenly the music will flowwwwwwwww with this ease. Toe tapping will start as things just sound more musical. During that time NO roll off of highs or major manipulation of tone. Noise floor will "change" but what is more obvious is the details starts to pop out more. Micro detail starts to poke it's head out of the lower noise floor. In some cases it seems that instruments gets isolated and surrounded in black. The trio music will sound more holographic instead of being clumped together like a blob of music. 

RealDz, this is a fun journey and you are the judge equipped with your ears. Enjoy music first and foremost. What you will discover down the road is that source is EVERYTHING. The foundation that is converted for D to A. Silly obvious but the ARIES II certainly "wings it" in sounding good even with mediocre square wave signals. This is why I say to people to enjoy but there is much more room for improvement. 

I look at DDC as an entirely different system. I do not clump in the price of the re-clocking DDC with the price of the DAC. Once you create a certain "endgame" upstream source, down stream is just a logical improvement (dac, preamp,amp). One less to think about once you have ultra low jitter. 

I do not sell gear. I'll say Tchernov "special" coax has been one of the biggest shockers in price point and performance. I'm pretty much hit my "end game" in source cleanse. From Silent Angel audio grade ethernet switch, mutec  to the Tchernov delivery to dac. I've covered my version of endgame ultra low jitter. 

Dacs come and go. An ultra low jitter signal in my personal views is mandatory for relieving digital glare. Never take source quality for granted.


----------



## sajunky (Jun 3, 2021)

TheRealDz said:


> If I understand it correctly (and maybe being overly optimistic), the Iris reclocking function plus the basic reclocking inherent in the Ares when connected via coax is a good thing, and kind of a poor man's daisy chained Mutec?


Reclocking is good things and bad. It is a wide term, which means that a term "reclocking DAC" can mean many things. A bad, as it is always better to not reclock when unnecessary. The best clock is close to a ladder, this is a concept of Terminator+. However a clock in Terminator is not better than a good third-party clock device around $1k and Terminator has no clock input. It means, there are no upgrade options. But it is a digression, as it worries only TOTL users. 

If I remember correctly @AlanU claims that Venus II is not better on I2S than AES. If it is a case, then Venus is reclocking I2S port which is not needed in this case and perhaps not implemented very well. I take this note seriously, as other observations (if theories removed) are 100% accurate, IHMO.

On the other side Mutec is an excellent device. Some others use it succesfully with Audio GD R-7HE. It is a proper use of a DDC, as AES signal runs in parallel with clock on a separate cable, that mitigate a requirement for clock recovery from S/PDIF data stream (which always ads a jitter). It is the only case when AES is approaching I2S quality when implemented correctly. But once again it is a TOTL solution. I2S is cheaper to implement.

In the case of Ares, Mutec has a very limited use. I would rather invest in a better DAC with I2S port with a prospect for better upgreadability. Next in line is Pontus, but if Pontus has quality problem over I2S like Venus, I would rather chose a different brand. I2S is currently becoming a industry standard, I would invest in this direction.


----------



## Lolito

sajunky said:


> Reclocking is good things and bad. It is a wide term, which means that a term "reclocking DAC" can mean many things. A bad, as it is always better to not reclock when unnecessary. The best clock is close to a ladder, this is a concept of Terminator+. However a clock in Terminator is not better than a good third-party clock device around $1k and Terminator has no clock input. It means, there are no upgrade options. But it is a digression, as it worries only TOTL users.
> 
> If I remember correctly @AlanU claims that Venus II is not better on I2S than AES. If it is a case, then Venus is reclocking I2S port which is not needed in this case and perhaps not implemented very well. I take this note seriously, as other observations (if theories removed) are 100% accurate, IHMO.
> 
> ...


You mean I2S is standirizing non-standard ports, right? because that is what is doing, every company using a different pin layout for that HDMI connection, LOL. Everyone who has used it likes it, but the actual problem is that it is not an standard, yet, correct?

How many different I2S HDMI layouts are there? it's maybe like 3 types and each brand choose one boat, or how is it, maybe the future indeed, not the present though.


----------



## sajunky (Jun 3, 2021)

Lolito said:


> You mean I2S is standirizing non-standard ports, right? because that is what is doing, every company using a different pin layout for that HDMI connection, LOL. Everyone who has used it likes it, but the actual problem is that it is not an standard, yet, correct?
> 
> How many different I2S HDMI layouts are there? it's maybe like 3 types and each brand choose one boat, or how is it, maybe the future indeed, not the present though.


PS Audio with LVDS signalling (over HDMI cables) slowly becomes an industry standard. There are no compatibility problems regarding functionality and operation. There are still minor variations of pins, especially regarding DSD transfers (as it wasn't covered in PS Audio implementation), but switches are in place. Custom cables help when switches are not sufficient.  I think users are confused with these switches, it is a biggest problem. There are bugs in the equipment as always, the latest example is non-functioning I2S port on Pegasus.


----------



## AlanU

sajunky said:


> Reclocking is good things and bad. It is a wide term, which means that a term "reclocking DAC" can mean many things. A bad, as it is always better to not reclock when unnecessary. The best clock is close to a ladder, this is a concept of Terminator+. However a clock in Terminator is not better than a good third-party clock device around $1k and Terminator has no clock input. It means, there are no upgrade options. But it is a digression, as it worries only TOTL users.
> 
> If I remember correctly @AlanU claims that Venus II is not better on I2S than AES. If it is a case, then Venus is reclocking I2S port which is not needed in this case and perhaps not implemented very well. I take this note seriously, as other observations (if theories removed) are 100% accurate, IHMO.
> 
> ...


Sajunky,

I have not made any claims on Venus II I2S or AES. 

We can always assume that a Denafrips upgrade path will always be better. Sometime, depending on music genre  this may not be 100% of the case. This is where many didn't catch on that the improvements in SQ stemmed from the reclock in the Pontus, Venus and Terminator. Indeed the higher tier DAC had more R&D in the quality in the ccts. Collectively the Input "reclock" and bump in better ccts in the DAC phase will provide a "different/better" sounding dac. 

I'm in a different school of thought and suggest sticking with an ARES II and build your endgame Reclocking source  setup. My approach will allow a reclocking of signal for a higher end dac which so far equates to good to great sonic improvements. Or buy your excellent NON reclocking DAC and feed it with your "endgame" cleanses of square wave. 

Sajunky,  you are very correct with the reclock signal being closer to the D to A conversion. This is where the weak link is the coax cable. There has been an interesting discussion I had regarding coax length. One side of the people believe in short coax cable to preserve the precision clock and least chance of introducing noise. The other side of the discussion is about people believing 1.5 meters length provides the least reflection of noise to reduce chances of jitter. I am one of "those" people that demands shortest cable as possible or at least .7 to 1 meter length coax. You may observe Tchernov cables offering shorter lengths for a specific and deliberate reason. 

I do wish for I2S flooding the market. I do hope for an industry pin out standard in the very near future. Presently it seems there are more people confused why their I2S dac isn't working with other manufactured products. If you are old enough to remember Sony Beta vs VHS.....that was a gong show LOL!!!

DACS are system dependent too. If you are into cabling you will understand that you can sometimes create your own "synergy" just like rolling tubes. However you can only do so much. 

For the average joe, reclocking is almost always going to always be a certain winner. Even nice 4 grand streamers DO NOT have ultra low jitter. If you are a BlueSound Node 2i user this will beg for a cleaner coax signal. I've yet to hear any negative effects, only positive results reclocking a signal.

Buying a better reclocking DAC is as simple as ordering online or placing your credit card on the sales counter.  Having non reclocked signal feeding an ARES II will NEVER allow you to see the true potential. This is why I say build your low jitter source upstream first. DAC and other components is easy. Having dirty source will ALWAYS make you question if you are truly benefiting in spending more money on an upgraded component being noisy source.


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## sabloke (Jun 3, 2021)

I2S over HDMI seems to be converging to a de-facto standard lately around PS Audio's settings. The most common issue seems to be swapped channels, easily fixed with a jumper. That's my experience with Venus and X-SPDIF, other than that it is plug and play. Definitely better sound than over AES, checked this A/B as it is dead easy to do by changing the toggle the input buttons on the Venus.


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## Lolito (Jun 3, 2021)

booooriiinnnnngggg !!!!!!!!!!!

boooo-bo-bo-boooo-boooo-rinnnnnnnng !!!!!!

boo boooo

Like beach boys with barbara ann, but with booooringggggg 


I find all this extremely low and primitive tech, if you gotta spend  couple thousand bucks for what it is pretty much a headphone jack... I mean... should I better massage the usb before entering the DDC, maybe an ASMRA massage, or thai massage? with happy ending? teflon lube for better connection (free new snake oil idea).

Put the fricking USB cleanign inside the dac, for god sake. No, don't tell me it is better an external ddc box, no, just like an external power supply is not good idea, unless box is very big though, but sell the whole thing together please, from USB to the analog out for the preamp... these companies want to sell us just another box. I'd rather have a decent USB cleaning protocol in my dac, and be done with such joke of primitive technology.


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## sajunky (Jun 3, 2021)

AlanU said:


> Sajunky, you are very correct with the reclock signal being closer to the D to A conversion. This is where the weak link is the coax cable. There has been an interesting discussion I had regarding coax length. One side of the people believe in short coax cable to preserve the precision clock and least chance of introducing noise. The other side of the discussion is about people believing 1.5 meters length provides the least reflection of noise to reduce chances of jitter. I am one of "those" people that demands shortest cable as possible or at least .7 to 1 meter length coax. You may observe Tchernov cables offering shorter lengths for a specific and deliberate reason.
> [...]
> For the average joe, reclocking is almost always going to always be a certain winner. Even nice 4 grand streamers DO NOT have ultra low jitter. If you are a BlueSound Node 2i user this will beg for a cleaner coax signal. I've yet to hear any negative effects, only positive results reclocking a signal.


If you ask me as an engineer, I will tell you straight away you are right, that shorter cables are better. Those who claim otherwise do not understand physics and most likely do not provide proper termination on both sides, so a reflection from the source come to play. With a longer lenght there is more chance for the bounced energy to come after the event is already triggered, but it should be dealt with termination, not increasing a cable lenght. S/PDIF standard is very losely defined, RCA connectors are completely inappropriate for a job and in result only the best brands follow general design rules (and not always). In a higher tier equipment there are BNC ports, use it whenever possible.

Regarding reclocking, read my word again. It is a substitute for a proper arrangement of the clock distribution and you have agreed that the best is to have a low jitter clock next to the ladder. However external clocks devices are much better quality, so losses on the cable are acceptable. As a bonus, when you supply both DAC and a DDC with the same clock frequency, you can avoid reclocking completely. You have good experience with Mutec, you found a good solution, but please do not make generic statements about reclocking superiority. DDC's do much more work than reclocking, you completely forgotten about ground loops. Why do you think DI-20HE has regenerative power supply?


----------



## sabloke

From what I know, the best thing is to avoid using USB altogether as it was never developed with high definition sound in mind. Best option is using a proper streamer with I2S or dual AES output.


----------



## Lolito (Jun 4, 2021)

I know my macbook has optical coming out of the headphone jack, but don't know if that is clean enough. I also have Airplay with an airport express that does  red book via wifi, and makes it optical toslink, that goes to the dac... sound darker than usb, and with 3 secs of delay...

Anyhow, for my topping L30 DAC (LOL), what would be best option to clean the USB signal? is there any DDC thread on the forum not to waste space here? any decent galvanizator of those or ddc to make it coaxial, if that would make it better, would be nice. I am ready to waste my money.


----------



## ]eep

sabloke said:


> From what I know, the best thing is to avoid using USB altogether as it was never developed with high definition sound in mind. Best option is using a proper streamer with I2S or dual AES output.


yes and no. Universal serial bus means it is a connection type that can do all sorts of things. It isn't a protocol as much as it is a couple of wires that can transport digital data or analog signal. If you use the proper driver/protocol it just delivers the file verbose in it's own pace. There is no streaming with a clockrate, just: 'heres a chunk of data. Checksum ok? No? Repeat. Yes? Next.' So there is no error correction or redundancy needed. No trouble with bad distorted square wave forms because it just repeats. In streaming you can't resend data because its in real time (well, technically if you use a buffer you can but that's not relevant here). So it isn't the same as FI i²s that is a bunch of wires that each have a seperate stream where the data needs to be uninterrupted (but slower). So what usb does is bring the data as close to the dac and clock as possible, error free. I don't think that's a bad idea.


----------



## sabloke

USB seems to be overly difficult to implement properly. Curious to see how well the new Bluesound Node does it. So far, USB output is only a promise that will be made available via a future firmware update.


----------



## sajunky (Jun 4, 2021)

Lolito said:


> Anyhow, for my topping L30 DAC (LOL), what would be best option to clean the USB signal? is there any DDC thread on the forum not to waste space here? any decent galvanizator of those or ddc to make it coaxial, if that would make it better, would be nice. I am ready to waste my money.


.LOL.
If you think USB ground is poluting your DAC inside, you are probably right (most cases). USB reclockers do galvanic isolation well, it is due to the complicated protocol involving DC signalling. A simple and inexpensive self-powered USB 2.0 hub (but not 3.x) can do excellent job redirecting ground loop from PC to the hub's power supply. PSU usually has 2-prong plug, you can switch polarisation and chose one that works better for you. Hub does regenerating packets with its own crystal oscilator, so it also allows to exend cable lenght beyond 5m if your HiFi is in a distant position. If you don't plug more devices just only one, any USB 2.0 hub works well, otherwise you would need a hub with multiple transaction translator (MTT) that cost more and may be false advertised. You can chain few hubs to extent a cable, but the last one must be powered from the same power outlet as a DAC on the short USB cable. This is a mandatory requirement. You can add LPS for the last hub to tune a setup better. Finally make sure that USB  host is negotiating with your DAC asynchronous mode, so a clock in your DAC receiver dictates a speed at which new packets arrive. It is a very special case where no reclocking is required. Ares will do reclocking anyway, but it is easy job as clock source is in a DAC receiver. Firmware update can improve reclocking.

For a long cable a better alternative is network streamer with USB port. Few problems: It is difficult to find out whether streamer USB port works in the best asynchronous mode. Secondly, avoid plugging network cable to the home Ehternet switch, it will accumulate ground loops from all devices connected to this hub. Use a dedicated one (or even a pair), the one conneting to your streamer must be plugged to the same power outlet as usual. A better solution is to use a dedicated WiFi extender with a short Ethernet cable to your streamer. A built-in WiFi can pollute inside the streamer, it is why a WiFi extender working in adapter mode (hit!). You can use RPi as a network streamer.

All S/PDIF solutions (except a separate external clock input) require to recover clock from the data stream that carry a jitter, it require PLL for cleaning up. There are inexpensive converters from USB and these work well. Probably it is the best option for the Ares that do not have I2S port. There is typically a galvanic isolator inside a socket, but there are leaky due to the large capacitance against socket's ground. Better devices have larger transformers, chose a quality device like Mutec $1k as advised, but I am sure you can find something less expensive.


----------



## ]eep

AlanU said:


> Hans is one the few people that have NOT sold out. He's very neutral and honest which is welcoming. Thomas and Stereo is another channel that is quite honest too.
> 
> Interesting you discuss "clean power". That is a topic I didn't want to get into too much as it's all dependent on the cleanliness of your local power grid, dedicated power line, power conditioning and connection of termination. Also a whole different topic on linear power supplies and manipulating frequency of the sine wave to modify tone........
> 
> ...


I really appreciate your input and perspective. You already convinced me to get a ddc (probably the Iris because it sort of stacks with the Ares and it can feed my other R2R with usb>coax). So what I'm saying is to build on or nuance, not criticize. 

I too appreciate HB for his direct, honest and professional opinions. What bothers me is his presentation and that despite all his expertise he is still firmly stuck in the old reference framework of western made, expensive high end audio. I truly believe that he is honest only honest people can get duped too. Like in the case of MQA where he is still fully backing his old stance on the new hope for high res audio. But thats an entirely different topic. 

Also my remark about your focus on the frontend (ddc). Im just saying that you shouldn't let the pendulum completely swing to the other side and forget about the backend (I/V output stage) nor the middle, central part (actual dac). They are all equally important. They form a chain too, just like your entire rig. The chain is as strong as the weakest link. 

Your analogy with the x- and y-axis is what I often point out too. Only in the digital domain is is simply less important because the dac only has to decide on a certain tact if its a yes or no. If you can clearly read the text there's no reason anymore for increasing the font size or screen resolution, is there? In the analog domain it's not even an alphabet of letters you need to discriminate but much more values. And on the other axis, the timedomain, smearing has a lot more impact than on the digital tact which is very high and precise by default. 

I agree that an actual i²s standard would be nice, but like others already mentioned, we're already halfway there since PS-Audio pretty much set the standard. Once you reach a certain critical mass most outliers will follow suit eventually. And after all, the incompatibility doesn't lie in protocol but merely the strand numbering of the cable. 

One other thing that I'm really in agreement on is the (lack of) importance of bitdepth. 16bits is really enough, 20 bits is all you ever need. 24 bits is overkill (unless you want the dynamic range between dropping a needle and a jackhammer directly tied to your skull), 32 bits is completely absurd. Useful for mixing 64 tracks in a studio but not at home. Unless you insist on using digital volume control the wrong way. 
96kHz is really helping improve the quality of filtering and keeping the full frequency range. Anything more is overkill. >192kHz is overkill for R2R dacs, usefull for DS (because the chip is stupid and needs lots of filtering). 
In 3 words; 16-96 is enough. I've tested it with a panel of friends on my little 4xTDA1543 R2R that I'm still using and actually prefer over the Ares. The Ares has a better frontend, mine has a better backend. If I can bypass the simple dir9001 s/p-dif input chip for i²s and/or feed it with the Iris... That would be hilarious. A $50 dac on a $500 DDC beating other $5000 dacs. 

Maybe I won't own this dac forever but the 'giant slayer' Ares (hmm, Ares or Mars was a giant himself...) didn't really win tbe fight with my little David dac. I've got 2 spares and a big brother plus several spare chips plus the ability to build one myself so I reckon I won't run out anytime soon. It's only 24-96 max but I can send i²s to its legs direct. So I agree, better a proper low-ish high-res signal than all-out 32 floating point 1536kHz rubbish. Once that is settled I suggest just enjoying the music or upgrading elsewhere. 

I'm now enjoying Maria Callas in Bellini's Norma from 1960 in la Scala de Milano. Such a beautiful recording. So spacious. It's well remastered and I'm playing it in 24-96  But a recording quality and such a  performance that most still can't equal these days despite DSD or insane high pcm rates  nowadays.


----------



## sabloke

]eep said:


> Maria Callas in Bellini's Norma from 1960 in la Scala de Milano


Marvelous recording! Listening sitting at my desk on speakers and if I close my eyes it feels like I'm there in the concert hall. No more DACs, cables and protocols, just music.


----------



## alvin1118

Hey guys,

The latest licensed Thesycon Driver (_For Windows PC_) v5.12.0 is available to download here: link.
https://www.denafrips.com/support







TUSBAudio - Thesycon USB Audio 2.0 Class Driver for Windows

Revision History
-----------------------------------------------------
V5.12.0 (May 18, 2021)
-----------------------------------------------------
* New: MIDI pipe statistics in the Spy utility
* New: several registry parameters for MIDI added
* Fix: switch preferred ASIO buffer size with driver package containing MIDI only and audio devices
* Chg: MIDI RX now uses USB flow control
* Chg: improved ISO packet error check
* Chg: scripts use Python 3.9.1 now
* Chg: DCK needs Windows 10 now
* Chg: documentation
* Chg: one channel can be part of more than 4 sound devices now

http://www.thesycon.de/usbaudio/TUSBAudio_history.txt


----------



## sajunky (Jun 5, 2021)

]eep said:


> The Ares has a better frontend, mine has a better backend. If I can bypass the simple dir9001 s/p-dif input chip for i²s and/or feed it with the Iris... That would be hilarious. A $50 dac on a $500 DDC beating other $5000 dacs.
> 
> Maybe I won't own this dac forever but the 'giant slayer' Ares (hmm, Ares or Mars was a giant himself...) didn't really win tbe fight with my little David dac. I've got 2 spares and a big brother plus several spare chips plus the ability to build one myself so I reckon I won't run out anytime soon. It's only 24-96 max but I can send i²s to its legs direct.


Not directly, you have to convert logic levels from LVDS to TTL (or LVTTL) to get it working. And then you can use any DDC or USB to I2S converter device with HDMI output. Otherwise TDA1543 is fully compliant with I2S protocol in the current form. A single SN65LVDS348 chip can do it. I have a schematic of a board HDMI upgrade for the Audio GD Singularity DACs, you can order a board or make yourself, PM for details.

Correction: Iris have RJ45 connector which use a similar logic levels, but HDMI connection carries less jitter, better make such board.


----------



## Lolito

sajunky said:


> .LOL.
> If you think USB ground is poluting your DAC inside, you are probably right (most cases). USB reclockers do galvanic isolation well, it is due to the complicated protocol involving DC signalling. A simple and inexpensive self-powered USB 2.0 hub (but not 3.x) can do excellent job redirecting ground loop from PC to the hub's power supply. PSU usually has 2-prong plug, you can switch polarisation and chose one that works better for you. Hub does regenerating packets with its own crystal oscilator, so it also allows to exend cable lenght beyond 5m if your HiFi is in a distant position. If you don't plug more devices just only one, any USB 2.0 hub works well, otherwise you would need a hub with multiple transaction translator (MTT) that cost more and may be false advertised. You can chain few hubs to extent a cable, but the last one must be powered from the same power outlet as a DAC on the short USB cable. This is a mandatory requirement. You can add LPS for the last hub to tune a setup better. Finally make sure that USB  host is negotiating with your DAC asynchronous mode, so a clock in your DAC receiver dictates a speed at which new packets arrive. It is a very special case where no reclocking is required. Ares will do reclocking anyway, but it is easy job as clock source is in a DAC receiver. Firmware update can improve reclocking.
> 
> For a long cable a better alternative is network streamer with USB port. Few problems: It is difficult to find out whether streamer USB port works in the best asynchronous mode. Secondly, avoid plugging network cable to the home Ehternet switch, it will accumulate ground loops from all devices connected to this hub. Use a dedicated one (or even a pair), the one conneting to your streamer must be plugged to the same power outlet as usual. A better solution is to use a dedicated WiFi extender with a short Ethernet cable to your streamer. A built-in WiFi can pollute inside the streamer, it is why a WiFi extender working in adapter mode (hit!). You can use RPi as a network streamer.
> ...


Even as the nerd that I am, I am not going to make any of that, because I am not that sick yet. I am very bad, but not that much. I appreciate of course the time to write this, I will read it now slowly a few times, I think I can get some easy and fast test to do, with that USB 2.0, but man, that is a lot of talk there. I rather pay for a box that do all that, or maybe connect it directly to laptop and test. I need to liberate a laptop port though, not an easy thing... anyhow, hehe, will buy a proper dac before that, lol, ares 2 convinced me, any for sale??


----------



## joseG86

alvin1118 said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> The latest licensed Thesycon Driver (_For Windows PC_) v5.12.0 is available to download here: link.
> https://www.denafrips.com/support
> ...


Thank you so much


----------



## sajunky

Lolito said:


> Even as the nerd that I am, I am not going to make any of that, because I am not that sick yet. I am very bad, but not that much. I appreciate of course the time to write this, I will read it now slowly a few times, I think I can get some easy and fast test to do, with that USB 2.0, but man, that is a lot of talk there. I rather pay for a box that do all that, or maybe connect it directly to laptop and test.


I give you tips to avoid spending a fortune. Even you don't hear, you need to do some cable management after all.


----------



## Lolito

]eep said:


> I really appreciate your input and perspective. You already convinced me to get a ddc (probably the Iris because it sort of stacks with the Ares and it can feed my other R2R with usb>coax). So what I'm saying is to build on or nuance, not criticize.
> 
> I too appreciate HB for his direct, honest and professional opinions. What bothers me is his presentation and that despite all his expertise he is still firmly stuck in the old reference framework of western made, expensive high end audio. I truly believe that he is honest only honest people can get duped too. Like in the case of MQA where he is still fully backing his old stance on the new hope for high res audio. But thats an entirely different topic.
> 
> ...


those sample rate are very useful and in my experience is exactly like that, although 16-96 is a strange combination to get, much more common 24-96. And yes, with delta sigma, chip is stupid indeed, if you feed it extra the DS errors are less apparent in a way... same if you play DSD, with the inconvenience of not able to EQ under unconverted DSD playback. Very often, 24-96 music is not really that much higher resolution, you can hear it is almost cd quality and cd sound (example rage against the machine in high res). In other recordings, 24-96 is so much better (depeche mode remastered). Some cd quality already awesome (like dire straits) and the hd is a bit weird really...


----------



## sajunky (Jun 6, 2021)

Lolito said:


> those sample rate are very useful and in my experience is exactly like that, although 16-96 is a strange combination to get, much more common 24-96.


It is a limitation of the chip TDA1543. I own a Nobsound 8xTDA1387, very useful on the road. It has the same limitation. But no, it is not better than Audio GD R2R-11, maybe because of a vintage type oversampling interface chip CM108.


----------



## ]eep (Jun 6, 2021)

I don't consider 24-96 a limitation really (for the TDA1543). I see a lot of little dacs based on the 1543 that are (stupidly) limited to 16-48 by the input chip. But that isn't really why I mentioned the samplerates. I use sd-cards and I want some music on my phone too. So sometimes I downsample stuff that I don't really play that often or care about all that much. There is a lot of music that just wasn't recorded all that well.

Also, when I'm looking for high-res, I come across the 'me too' candidates that are presented in their full 24-48 glory. I am saying: that is useless. 24 bit is useless in real life conditions. If you are wearing headphones and you want to hear the full 16 bits from 0dB to full blast you wil have tinnitus in no time. And 48kHz is NOT high res either. Offering 24-48 as high-res is marketing lies. Upsampling Redbook to 24-96 and selling it as high-res is even worse. But easy to check. Just like MQA.

On the other hand there are really old recordings that are carefully remastered from 35mm tapes etc. that were recorded with just 3 microphones that sound stunning. That I don't mind using some space for the DSD for. And that's why I'm glad to have the Ares II. In the workshop I can output D2P (DSD to PCM) in 96 max. So I totally agree that it's better to have a good signal at lower bitrates than a messy data tsunami. 

I am comparing a recording of Rimsky-Korsakov now, in 24-192 it is rather large at 2,36 GB. In 24-96 it is almost exactly half that at 1.19 GB. But now the strange thing... since you would expect most data would come from the 16 msb, in 16-96 the data volume is only just 434 MB. So 2/3 of the bitdepth is only 40% of the size. So if I resample 24-192 to 16-96 I save 2GB of space! That is only 18%, a saving of 82%! And still usefull high res in that it makes filtering a lot easier for the dac.
numbers:
24-192 2416 MB  100%
24-96   1218 MB   50%
24-48     707 MB   29%
16-96    434  MB   18%
16-44    290 MB    12%


----------



## Lolito

Certainly higher freq in the sample rate makes it sound better indeed, faster transient, more air, more instrument separation, when it's recorded well of course, otherwise...


----------



## sajunky

Lolito said:


> Certainly higher freq in the sample rate makes it sound better indeed, faster transient, more air, more instrument separation, when it's recorded well of course, otherwise...


I agree, it is better, up to the moment a jitter is increasing above the tolerated level, as is increasing proportionally. My Topping D30 by example could not play 192kHz without harshness, 96kHz was better. One thing I can't agree is faster transients, it is not true.


----------



## Lolito

sajunky said:


> I agree, it is better, up to the moment a jitter is increasing above the tolerated level, as is increasing proportionally. My Topping D30 by example could not play 192kHz without harshness, 96kHz was better. One thing I can't agree is faster transients, it is not true.


Obviously not faster, that makes no sense. Faster, much more acurate sounding. It does therefore sounds faster although is the exact same speed at any sample rate. Internet forums.


----------



## cgb3

daytrader said:


> Now, now, a drink can make a Saturday night listening session even more enjoyable! 🥃


Why stop with Saturday?


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## TheRealDz (Jun 7, 2021)

@sajunky and @]eep, you two are both enablers and evil.  Ie, I bought the Nobsound 8xTDA1387 off of ebay.  Seems like a lot of musicality for $42. Of course I will need to plug it into my Etir and buy a dedicated linear power supply.  If you could suggest any sub forums on tweaks, LPS selection, etc, I would appreciate it.

If nothing else, I really love my Ares and am totally sold on r2r DACs.  The Nobsound should be a perfect DAC to run on a second system with my incoming Schiit Vali 2...


----------



## sajunky

TheRealDz said:


> @sajunky and @]eep, you two are both enablers and evil.  Ie, I bought the Nobsound 8xTDA1387 off of ebay.  Seems like a lot of musicality for $42. Of course I will need to plug it into my Etir and buy a dedicated linear power supply.  If you could suggest any sub forums on tweaks, LPS selection, etc, I would appreciate it.
> 
> If nothing else, I really love my Ares and am totally sold on r2r DACs.  The Nobsound should be a perfect second DAC to run with my incoming Schiit Vali 2...


Thank you.  I found lot of information on the diyaudio forum. I don't recommend this site, as they decided to remove the entire thread regarding dual SMPS incorrect use in Topping A90 amp. However you can find some active projects and tweaks. For a Nobsound tweaks are limited in a limited space. I was going to do some, but in meantime I received Audio GD R2R-11. Nobsound is perfect when traveling, as it doesn't draw lot of power from a cellphone. For a price is difficult to beat.


----------



## ]eep (Jun 13, 2021)

TheRealDz said:


> @sajunky and @]eep, you two are both enablers and evil.  Ie, I bought the Nobsound 8xTDA1387 off of ebay.  Seems like a lot of musicality for $42. Of course I will need to plug it into my Etir and buy a dedicated linear power supply.  If you could suggest any sub forums on tweaks, LPS selection, etc, I would appreciate it.
> 
> If nothing else, I really love my Ares and am totally sold on r2r DACs.  The Nobsound should be a perfect DAC to run on a second system with my incoming Schiit Vali 2...


thanks for the compliment. Sorry I didn't reply yet. I haven't looked into the nobsound 1387 much so I can't say much helpful about it. Just that you might want to have a look at what comes after the chip. Often the filter is hardware limited to 20kHz 1st order that attenuates the high treble.
I've written plenty about it in several fora (headfi audiokarma, diyhifi). But that is specific to the Muse 4x1543 that isn't on the market anymore. The Teradak 8x1543 is a good alternative though. All you need to do there is take the output pins directly from the chip to the output, (bundle all leg 6 to left output, 8 to right) just short the output to ground with the right value R260 or R520 and bypass everything else. Pure and simple. The value depends on the number of chips but you can simply hear what it does, it doesnt break anything if you get it wrong. Higher sounds tight, lower sounds loose. Off the top of my head I used R460 for the 4x1543. (man, I'm lazy. Took me all of 30s to check that. it's 460)

Looked it up... inside the nobsound next to the 8 tda1387 are a couple of 10uF output caps, very detrimental to the sound (re)move, bypass or replace. The R220 are the output resistors(? not sure, or the 660) that is ok (easy to check on the output). The other tiny yellow and orange caps are the hard 20kHz filter.


----------



## TheRealDz

]eep said:


> thanks for the compliment. Sorry I didn't reply yet. I haven't looked into the nobsound 1387 much so I can't say much helpful about it. Just that you might want to have a look at what comes after the chip. Often the filter is hardware limited to 20kHz 1st order that attenuates the high treble.
> I've written plenty about it in several fora (headfi audiokarma, diyhifi). But that is specific to the Muse 4x1543 that isn't on the market anymore. The Teradak 8x1543 is a good alternative though. All you need to do there is take the output pins directly from the chip to the output, (bundle all leg 6 to left output, 8 to right) just short the output to ground with the right value R260 or R520 and bypass everything else. Pure and simple. The value depends on the number of chips but you can simply hear what it does, it doesnt break anything if you get it wrong. Higher sounds tight, lower sounds loose. Off the top of my head I used R460 for the 4x1543. (man, I'm lazy. Took me all of 30s to check that. it's 460)
> 
> Looked it up... inside the nobsound next to the 8 tda1387 are a couple of 10uF output caps, very detrimental to the sound (re)move, bypass or replace. The R220 are the output resistors(? not sure, or the 660) that is ok (easy to check on the output). The other tiny yellow and orange caps are the hard 20kHz filter.


Thanks for the follow up.  So. Many. Dumb questions.  But I will save them for a PM vs boring everyone on this thread...


----------



## TheRealDz

AlanU said:


> Hans is one the few people that have NOT sold out. He's very neutral and honest which is welcoming. Thomas and Stereo is another channel that is quite honest too.
> 
> Interesting you discuss "clean power". That is a topic I didn't want to get into too much as it's all dependent on the cleanliness of your local power grid, dedicated power line, power conditioning and connection of termination. Also a whole different topic on linear power supplies and manipulating frequency of the sine wave to modify tone........
> 
> ...


@AlanU, you, too, are an evil enabler;  I bought a SingXer F-1. I will report back when I get it. 

I checked out a bunch of other options, but ultimately, I think the F-1 is the perfect match for the Ares. At $200, the price ratio seems in line. The F-1 only has a coax output - which is all the Ares is capable of receiving (ie, no I2S, no clock input, etc). From what I can tell, with an outboard linear power supply (also on order), the F-1 is effectively a stripped down version of the highly regarded SingXer S-1 - with just the coax output the Ares needs. 

I currently have an Etir, but will put that up for sale, since it is incompatible with the F-1.  The Etir brings more clarity, but I don't hear more air, more dimensionality, or a more holographic presentation. I am eager to hear what the F-1 brings...


----------



## AlanU

TheRealDz said:


> @AlanU, you, too, are an evil enabler;  I bought a SingXer F-1. I will report back when I get it.
> 
> I checked out a bunch of other options, but ultimately, I think the F-1 is the perfect match for the Ares. At $200, the price ratio seems in line. The F-1 only has a coax output - which is all the Ares is capable of receiving (ie, no I2S, no clock input, etc). From what I can tell, with an outboard linear power supply (also on order), the F-1 is effectively a stripped down version of the highly regarded SingXer S-1 - with just the coax output the Ares needs.
> 
> I currently have an Etir, but will put that up for sale, since it is incompatible with the F-1.  The Etir brings more clarity, but I don't hear more air, more dimensionality, or a more holographic presentation. I am eager to hear what the F-1 brings...


Seems that there is an upgrade path by purchasing Ifi USB power. Since the F-1 uses USB port power, having the ifi USB power can give it an additional bump in SQ.

Another weakness is the quality of the coax cable. In due time you should hear some more micro details as the noise floor drops due to the re-clocked signal. 

I'm hopeful the F1 is a sweet spot. You should immediately and instantly hear a more enjoyable and musical experience. Digital glare should be stripped from the music. 

Just recently did a fun experiment.  I blew the dust off of my abandoned Uptone USBregen (amber) and fed it to my first Mutec MC-3+ USB. This quick test seems to have changed the flow of the music. Still trying to pinpoint the changes but further relaxed the flow. 

Mind you, I also have been testing the Audirvana Studio so this is a bit of a game changer for me. Speaking with others that have much more expensive rigs find "studio" as a nice improvement like purchasing a new audio component. Not bad for software.

This stuff gets rather silly and fun........


----------



## iFi audio

AlanU said:


> Seems that there is an upgrade path by purchasing Ifi USB power. Since the F-1 uses USB port power, having the ifi USB power can give it an additional bump in SQ.



Do you mean our USB reclockers like iUSB3.0?


----------



## Lolito

TheRealDz said:


> @AlanU, you, too, are an evil enabler;  I bought a SingXer F-1. I will report back when I get it.
> 
> I checked out a bunch of other options, but ultimately, I think the F-1 is the perfect match for the Ares. At $200, the price ratio seems in line. The F-1 only has a coax output - which is all the Ares is capable of receiving (ie, no I2S, no clock input, etc). From what I can tell, with an outboard linear power supply (also on order), the F-1 is effectively a stripped down version of the highly regarded SingXer S-1 - with just the coax output the Ares needs.
> 
> I currently have an Etir, but will put that up for sale, since it is incompatible with the F-1.  The Etir brings more clarity, but I don't hear more air, more dimensionality, or a more holographic presentation. I am eager to hear what the F-1 brings...


that thing costs 175$ it can not output in optical, or aes or i2s, for the future, it uses usb power only, if i am not mistaken, so not sure how you can get rid of noise in usb power without rejecting it, makes no sense, not a cheap device really.  The chinese ones from audiophonics in France seems like a better deal. no?


----------



## Lolito




----------



## TheRealDz (Jun 15, 2021)

Lolito said:


> that thing costs 175$ it can not output in optical, or aes or i2s, for the future, it uses usb power only, if i am not mistaken, so not sure how you can get rid of noise in usb power without rejecting it, makes no sense, not a cheap device really.  The chinese ones from audiophonics in France seems like a better deal. no?


Hey hey hey, @Lolito  just because you have one of the coolest avatar pics around, doesn't mean you get to go negative on us! 😜

Given this is an Ares thread, I still stand by the F-1 being a good match for the Ares spec-wise - ie, I2S/AES connections are pointless.

As for the power, the F-1 has galvanic isolation, and I already bought a linear power supply plus power injector cable (that cuts power from USB connection and injects power from psu).

The F-1 is a simplified version of the S1, which seems to have gotten unequivocally good feedback.  I will report back if the F-1's performance meets its expectations once I get the it in the next few days...


----------



## Lolito

not negetive brother, just trying to distinguish the good smoke from the bad one, the good snake oil from the not so good one. The cheap one from the expensive one. I am all about positivity, mindfullness, flower power and all in all positive vibes for all living creatures of this our lovely planet earth and mother nature. I send you and all the fellow head-fiers lot of love and hot kisses from me, with sugar on top.


----------



## Lolito

TheRealDz said:


> Hey hey hey, @Lolito  just because you have one of the coolest avatar pics around, doesn't mean you get to go negative on us! 😜
> 
> Given this is an Ares thread, I still stand by the F-1 being a good match for the Ares spec-wise - ie, I2S/AES connections are pointless.
> 
> ...


how much all that? the f1 with the linear PSU and that special cable? again, just asking, not better the audiophonics solution with optical output via toslink? with all the positive vibes, ras-ta-fa-ri. May Jah be with you.


----------



## Lolito




----------



## daytrader (Jun 16, 2021)

Lolito said:


>



As Sally Field once said, “you like me…you really like me”.   Damn right! 😜


----------



## Lolito

I just ordered one, let's see if it's a fun listen.


----------



## TheRealDz

My SingXer F-1 came in. I have less than 24 hours on it, and it is promising;  everything the Ares does, it now does better. 

In its absence, I realize the Schiit Etir made the music too clinical - it brought clarity, but at the expense of changing the Ares' fundamental sound.


----------



## Lolito

I see you have experience with these "USB cleaners". How was the "performance" or the sound in general, without any of those devices? what is your source, it has cable noise or somehting?

I see there iFi iPurifier, iFi Silencer. Any help would be highly appreciated, since this denafrips Ares2 gonna have to stay here for a long long time. Not spending more money on a DAC until 2026, minimum ;-D


----------



## Jay_vs

Is this any good? https://magnahifi.com/product/holo-audio-titanis-800ma-active-usb-processor/


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## sajunky

Jay_vs said:


> Is this any good? https://magnahifi.com/product/holo-audio-titanis-800ma-active-usb-processor/


Any USB 2.0 hub is an active device, rebuilding the signal. Regeneration of USB power? What they are talking about? Perhaps LC filter on the 5V power line. No redirection of ground loops, as there is no external power. This advertising use wrong terminology - processor? Confusing.

ifi defender.


----------



## Jay_vs

lol it does not read well. They state that Titanis receives the signal from USB and puts it in a local buffer, with the use of a local high quality clock, regenerates the USB signal and sends it to output.


----------



## Lolito

Any Apple Mac computer owners here using it also with an Ares 2? I´ve read in the past some little issues or something? I use Audirvana, ALAC files, red book, then high res flacs too and dsd, all via Audirvana playback... Would be great to be warned of any caveats, so I don't get mad if it doesn't work from minute 1. I alse read it needs a ton of burn in time, right?


----------



## sajunky

Jay_vs said:


> lol it does not read well. They state that Titanis receives the signal from USB and puts it in a local buffer, with the use of a local high quality clock, regenerates the USB signal and sends it to output.


I missed that... In such case it acts as a single port USB hub, as any USB 2.0 hub do buffer and regenerate USB frames before passing it to the up- and downstream port. It is called *transaction translator*. Every hub has at least one. It is for converting low speed devices to the high speed to not waste bandwith on the upstream port, it also allows to extend cable lenght by daisy chaining hubs. More about TT on Wikipedia.

Every hub also has an internal crystal oscilator, but clock quality doesn't matter, as most of DAC's on the market these days use asynchronous transfers. It is a transfer mode where a host transfer speed is synchronised with internal clock on the DAC.

In summary, such device for >$100 is wasting your time and money. Get an USB 2.0 hub with an external power supply connector for $5, it will do the same and additionally redirect ground loops like ifi defender does.


----------



## Lolito

sajunky said:


> I missed that... In such case it acts as a single port USB hub, as any USB 2.0 hub do buffer and regenerate USB frames before passing it to the up- and downstream port. It is called *transaction translator*. Every hub has at least one. It is for converting low speed devices to the high speed to not waste bandwith on the upstream port, it also allows to extend cable lenght by daisy chaining hubs. More about TT on Wikipedia.
> 
> Every hub also has an internal crystal oscilator, but clock quality doesn't matter, as most of DAC's on the market these days use asynchronous transfers. It is a transfer mode where a host transfer speed is synchronised with internal clock on the DAC.
> 
> In summary, such device for >$100 is wasting your time and money. Get an USB 2.0 hub with an external power supply connector for $5, it will do the same and additionally redirect ground loops like ifi defender does.


and what if the hub is USB 3.0?? not the same at all, right?


----------



## sajunky

Lolito said:


> and what if the hub is USB 3.0?? not the same at all, right?


Do you want more high frequency noise? Sure you don't, right?

3.0 hubs are more noisy, it is why I am talking specifically about 2.0 hub. Everyone can afford a dedicated hub for a DAC, less connected devices, better for ground loops.


----------



## Lolito

So if my dac is connected to a usb 3.0 hub, you recommend that I connect a usb 2.0 hub to my 3.0 hub, and to that 2.0 hub i connect my dac? or that would be useless since the 3.0 hub is closer to the computer in this chain?


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## Lolito (Jun 19, 2021)

actually, my apple keyboard is also a usb 2.0 hub, so I can do an actual test and comment. Should the difference be really audible?

Update: Well, I can not be sure if I have that bias thing, but I think connecting it to the keyboard (usb 2.0 inside) and keyboard to macbook, sounds less shouty the female vocals high. When using the usb 3.0 hub, I would swear it's less transparent sound, and the female vocals high sound more glary, more piercing.

Used pj harvey song, to talk to you, 24-96, audirvana. upsampled x2.


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## sajunky (Jun 19, 2021)

Lolito said:


> Update: Well, I can not be sure if I have that bias thing, but I think connecting it to the keyboard (usb 2.0 inside) and keyboard to macbook, sounds less shouty the female vocals high. When using the usb 3.0 hub, I would swear it's less transparent sound, and the female vocals high sound more glary, more piercing.
> 
> Used pj harvey song, to talk to you, 24-96, audirvana. upsampled x2.


Enjoy your Ares! 

Yip, it is reported by many that USB 2.0 phy is less noisy.
Your journey only begins. I have to add, that keyboard is USB powered. Better result are when using USB 2.0 hub with external power supply. And then you can experiment whether it is better to plug it to a keyboard port or directly to a laptop (in my experience better, but make your own tests). Keyboard can be plugged to this hub, but no more devices, just DAC and optionally keyboard.

External power supply is important, as it redirects ground loops to a hub's power supply. It is what ifi defender does.  It can be a quality LPS for better results, but you can try a typical USB charger first.


----------



## Lolito (Jun 19, 2021)

Thanks, I have a few usb 2.0 hubs somewhere. the dac already has a LPS, 5V, regulable.I see many people have it at 5.01, or 5.02, I adjusted mine to 5.00v, not sure what should I set it to... The laptop PSU is a big piece of crap and the port is usb 3.0, sounds better to the keyboard, to the laptop directly sounds like to the usb 3.0 port...

This is not Ares yet, this is a topping E30 with LPS from china.

UPDATE TO NOT WRITE MORE POSTS:

Is there any kind of audiophile friendly usb 2.0 hub? Since I plan to keep 2 dacs for convenience, one R2R for audirvana, another delta sigma for youtube, movies and electronic music or whatever, would be nice to have a decent usb 2.0 hub, with connection to external power supply. thanks.


----------



## PopZeus

Lolito said:


> Any Apple Mac computer owners here using it also with an Ares 2? I´ve read in the past some little issues or something? I use Audirvana, ALAC files, red book, then high res flacs too and dsd, all via Audirvana playback... Would be great to be warned of any caveats, so I don't get mad if it doesn't work from minute 1. I alse read it needs a ton of burn in time, right?


Yeah, I have a very similar setup. For a while, my iMac was freezing everytime I took the Ares 2 off standby. It was really bad, even freezing during start up. It was a direct USB connection but now I'm using a hub, and now I leave my DAC on all the time (sounds better warm anyways and gets you thru burn-in faster). I've never used a DDC so I don't know what I'm missing. I've also never tried the Ares via coax, so that might be peak performance for that DAC? No idea, but Audirvana sounds excellent through my setup.


----------



## sajunky

Lolito said:


> Is there any kind of audiophile friendly usb 2.0 hub? Since I plan to keep 2 dacs for convenience, one R2R for audirvana, another delta sigma for youtube, movies and electronic music or whatever, would be nice to have a decent usb 2.0 hub, with connection to external power supply. thanks.


Audiophile hub? Better get DDC. Did I said only one device connected to the hub, didn't I? You can surely afford two cheap hubs/PSU's.


----------



## Lolito

Thanks for the inputs and help. It is very nuanced details in the sound, you really have to pay attention to notice it, but there is certainly an improvement now, connected to the usb 3.0 hub with plenty of stuff connected there, now just to the keyboard as usb 2.0 hub, sounds cleaner, less glare maybe, less shouty, cleaner larger bass... Now, I have one of those fancy 10€ USB audiophile cable from aliexpress, and then I have the one included with the DAC. Both sound the same, or the non fancy one better if you ask me, didn't test that yet. I think both cables sound very clean, will keep the audiophile one. it is much more beefy, thick, stronger. Eventually I will have to use a USB 2.0 hub with optional PSU, linear or not... This is an endless collection of boxes eh? and we didn't considered DDC yet in this whole... This is an endless rabbit hole that eventually you gotta decide where to stop, otherwise... this was a free sound upgrade though.


----------



## daytrader

keeping on topic with USB cables, has anyone experimented with run length over USB?  I‘ve read 10 to up to 15’(max) is perfectly acceptable with no signal degradation.  Anyone, thought?  Thanks


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## Lolito (Jun 19, 2021)

the longer the cable, the more interference it can grab, maybe there a more audiophile cable works better, still, 5m is a decent max length for usb, if it's properly powered should be good. here the audiophile cable of 1m, via the 2.0 thing and with 2x oversampling, sounds really good. Still, delta sigma kinda shouty eventually, if loud, more in speakers than headphones, can be room acoustics easily, we are splitting hairs here ATM. In the sweetspot life is great now at 23:32



also turned down the laptop fans, they were spinning as if it was 1995 all over again


----------



## TheRealDz (Jun 20, 2021)

Lolito said:


> I see you have experience with these "USB cleaners". How was the "performance" or the sound in general, without any of those devices? what is your source, it has cable noise or somehting?
> 
> I see there iFi iPurifier, iFi Silencer. Any help would be highly appreciated, since this denafrips Ares2 gonna have to stay here for a long long time. Not spending more money on a DAC until 2026, minimum ;-D


@Lolito, sorry for the slow reply.

1) iFi Silencer:  I don't hear a difference.  I can't say whether it is worth it.  But for $50, it may be fun to experiment with.

2) iFi iPurifier:  after lots of experimenting, I think the music sounds smoother, but it is not dramatic either way.

However, this is a necessary component for me, since I am running a toslink out from my AppleTV on my living room rig, and I need this to convert to coax.   Otherwise, I think your money is better spent on;

3) Singxer F-1:  @AlanU was right; the improvement is pretty dramatic.  Way more inner detail and dimension to the music, while sounding smoother.  One of my acid tests is whether I can keep turning the music up without fatigue, and with the F-1 I can keep doing so.  And mine doesn't even have 100 hours on yet (supposedly continues to improve up to 500 hours).

The fundamental sound of the Ares isn't changed, but rather it is improved across the board. Absolute no brainer for $200, and a necessary component to get the most out of your Ares.

4) Schiit Etir:  cleaned up the sound, but perhaps too much.  It made the Ares sound a bit more clinical - ie, it changed the fundamental sound of my Ares, for the worse. 

If you have noise problems in your system, perhaps the Etir is your solution.  But ib my system, it did not make the dramatic improvement that the F-1 did.

I hope that helps.


----------



## AlanU

TheRealDz said:


> @Lolito, sorry for the slow reply.
> 
> 1) iFi Silencer:  I don't hear a difference.  I can't say whether it is worth it.  But for $50, it may be fun to experiment with.
> 
> ...


Good to hear the Singxer F1 is doing the trick!!!!

This is where a reclocker is a serious jump from your typical DDC such as the Eitr.

In most cases any type of USB "performance" device is just a slight improvement....if at all.

What I have observed is that my old UPtone USBRegen was nothing special when I used it with my laptop to DAC. Never cared for the Uptone product even though it was suppose to be effective. Well as weeks go by I am just observing that it's not that much of any improvement when I feed the treated Uptone USB Regen signal to the Mutec Mc-3+USB. To be fair it may possibly be  a slight refinement. One must understand that the slightest improvement will always add up collectively. I am commenting on the USBRegen based on my ears and not honeymoon excitement of buying devices. I've had to dust off this product as I shelved it due to little to no improvement. Mind you I was trying to fix a jitter problem witha  simple device.  

The re-clocking device should be a kick in the face "WOW". Just remember that in my case the first reclocker is a wow!! the second unit is not nearly as "wow" but my wallet still feels it's a worthy refinement that is without a doubt justifiable. 

If people talk about "improvements" with apple tv. I have used my Silent Angle N8 audio grade ethernet switch (I used 2 SA N8/ with F1 Linear power supply). I feed the ethernet to my apple TV and the sound quality gets dramatically better. I use CAT7 Ugreen shielded cable as it's grounded well to protect the signal. The detail improves alot and is worth it to me. No joke....... it's very noticeable in my hifi 2 CHANNEL rig.

However for audio the external device that re-clocks signal is a very serious upgrade.


----------



## Lolito

Maybe DAC manufacturers should be taking notes here, maybe USB implementation can be a selling point for the future. I would like my next DAC to have this stuff integrated, not having to buy another damn box. RE-clocking the clocked clock after first clock re-clock clock... So now denafrips, or Singxer, can sell you the usb cleaning box first, then the DAC, then the pre-amp, then amp... LOL

I think USB implementation and quality of cleaning is going to be the next battle in affordable delta-sigma dacs of up to 1000€. It already is. Schiit implementation supposed to be quite good.


----------



## AlanU

Lolito said:


> Maybe DAC manufacturers should be taking notes here, maybe USB implementation can be a selling point for the future. I would like my next DAC to have this stuff integrated, not having to buy another damn box. RE-clocking the clocked clock after first clock re-clock clock... So now denafrips, or Singxer, can sell you the usb cleaning box first, then the DAC, then the pre-amp, then amp... LOL
> 
> I think USB implementation and quality of cleaning is going to be the next battle in affordable delta-sigma dacs of up to 1000€. It already is. Schiit implementation supposed to be quite good.


So virtually all DACS us USB  Asycronous connection. 

Most hardcore 2 channel people I know will use I2S (Aqua acousic) with their LinQ streamer or Mutec feeding coax to dacs.  This is where it concentrates on retention of the clock signal from the re-clocking DDC. Interesting how many care little for MQA or 32 bit. I can now understand why as even 16 bit has blown me away after cascading my two mutecs.

USB is not appealing to me as it would require an excellent noise rejecting usb cable $$$$$$. This may sound silly but if you spend 500 bucks on a boutique fancy usb cable that is a passive piece of wire....spending approx 1000 more will provide you a reclocking DDC that will be in ENDGAME guaranteed source feed that is proven to work for year to come. On the otherhand buy a Singxer F1 and usb ifi unit and buy something that works vs a spendy fancy looking usb cable. 

I no longer even care for 32 bit or MQA. Bottom line is the quality of the clock signal that feeds the dac. USB for some people may work great but it all depends on how your gear rejects noise or how it copes with noise.


----------



## Lolito

AlanU said:


> So virtually all DACS us USB  Asycronous connection.
> 
> Most hardcore 2 channel people I know will use I2S (Aqua acousic) with their LinQ streamer or Mutec feeding coax to dacs.  This is where it concentrates on retention of the clock signal from the re-clocking DDC. Interesting how many care little for MQA or 32 bit. I can now understand why as even 16 bit has blown me away after cascading my two mutecs.
> 
> ...


If I ever want to waste money, I would certainly expend it in prostitutes and cocaine and then get a schiit heresy+modi. I´ve never ever seen 32bits music file. I have 24-96, or even 24-192, dsd 64 and even 128, but 32 bits never even seen it. Of course, I have not tested any of those ddc, you say coaxial better than toslink for entering the dac with?


----------



## sajunky (Jun 21, 2021)

AlanU said:


> So virtually all DACS us USB  Asycronous connection.
> 
> Most hardcore 2 channel people I know will use I2S (Aqua acousic) with their LinQ streamer or Mutec feeding coax to dacs.  This is where it concentrates on retention of the clock signal from the re-clocking DDC. Interesting how many care little for MQA or 32 bit. I can now understand why as even 16 bit has blown me away after cascading my two mutecs.
> [...]
> Bottom line is the quality of the clock signal that feeds the dac. USB for some people may work great but it all depends on how your gear rejects noise or how it copes with noise.


Rejecting a noise is very difficult on the USB, I agree. On the other side USB allows to deliver data stream asynchronously which means a clock from the internal oscilators is used for synchronisation. Unfortunately this perfect scenario is broken when you try to isolate I2S output from the USB receiver. It means that most of DDC devices will reclock, while it could be avoided. You call it re-clocking DDC's. Not the best solution in my opinion, it is why you have Mutec re-clocking device where re-clocking is made very well. Another method is to design bi-directional isolator that would not break asynchronous packet delivery. This would not require reclocking USB port, perhars you should try DI-20/DI-20HE or any 2021 version of Audio DG DACs that implement this feature.


----------



## Lolito (Jun 21, 2021)

AlanU said:


> So virtually all DACS us USB  Asycronous connection.
> 
> Most hardcore 2 channel people I know will use I2S (Aqua acousic) with their LinQ streamer or Mutec feeding coax to dacs.  This is where it concentrates on retention of the clock signal from the re-clocking DDC. Interesting how many care little for MQA or 32 bit. I can now understand why as even 16 bit has blown me away after cascading my two mutecs.
> 
> ...


One question, what price are your speakers? because my speakers with amp costs new 1100€, I bought them on offer for 660€. Speakers with amplification.
I bought now a 600€ R2R DAC, it is already an overcost. I understand with systems with a +5000€ speakers, with 1000-2000€ in amp+preamp, I understand all that hassle. but re-clocking the clock for the clock after the clock, usb to coax to XLR ro rca...


Too much. Schiit Bifrost 3 and be done with it, you heard it here first.


----------



## joseG86

Lolito said:


> If I ever want to waste money, I would certainly expend it in prostitutes and cocaine and then get a schiit heresy+modi.


Lmao


----------



## Pharmaboy

Lolito said:


> If I ever want to waste money, I would certainly expend it in prostitutes and cocaine and then get a schiit heresy+modi.


I think it's a given that the prostitutes & cocaine won't sound like Schiit.


----------



## Lolito (Jun 21, 2021)

Well, you never know. Back on topic, my ARES arrived today. Extremely fast shipping from Vinshine and Fedex. 35€ total in taxes, 13€ base fee, the rest are actual VAT taxes... Yesterday I payed 19€ for something else; same 14€ fee, 5€ the actual taxes... These people are earning money by doing nothing. The VAT is fine, but 13€ to X company for charging me 3€ in VAT it is ridiculous and crazy. Then of course, in South America that is where the real rip off is... Again, VAT taxes, money for the public, for me is fine... 13€ for charging money? a beer is 1.5-3€ and it is something, this is 13€ for nothing.

First impression was that all my red book files sounded like mp3 256Kbs, and that lack of resolution, with some kind of equalization that makes vocals and high piercing treeble go well behind of the whole sound scene. No surprise it doesnt tire the ear, seems like designed as for background music on an elevator or reception or office. That of course is for a non burned in Ares2, and then I am used to the Topping E30 sound, which is clean and clinical but probably edged and in general a bit tiring after a while, but very detailed and precise. The bass on the topping much more shy, short, less decay...

Anyhow, hard to put it into words, specially because the general impression can vary a lot, for example certain tracks that are very simple, just a vocals and 1 or 2 instruments, with the Ares2 is much more organic, musical, real, natural sounding for sure, already. I also noticed, when playing DSD or high res files, those files topping is not that bad, less piercing sound, and then ton of detail, so in those cases, the ares advantage is smaller maybe. Still early.

All in all, feels like the Ares2 will need to open up, initially sounded bad, now sounds much much better, still not spectacular, we will wait. But I can already feel that less tiring experience for long hours, at least with speakers, with headphones didnt try yet, the topping with headphones was already sublime sounding I have to say. I could use the topping with the Singxer SA1 for hours and hours.


----------



## joseG86

Sublime sounding is always improvable, you can always get better muahaha


----------



## sajunky

Burning takes time, but, It also takes a time to adjust our brain to the not simplified sound.


----------



## Kromen

Lolito said:


> Well, you never know. Back on topic, my ARES arrived today. Extremely fast shipping from Vinshine and Fedex. 35€ total in taxes, 13€ base fee, the rest are actual VAT taxes... Yesterday I payed 19€ for something else; same 14€ fee, 5€ the actual taxes... These people are earning money by doing nothing. The VAT is fine, but 13€ to X company for charging me 3€ in VAT it is ridiculous and crazy. Then of course, in South America that is where the real rip off is... Again, VAT taxes, money for the public, for me is fine... 13€ for charging money? a beer is 1.5-3€ and it is something, this is 13€ for nothing.
> 
> First impression was that all my red book files sounded like mp3 256Kbs, and that lack of resolution, with some kind of equalization that makes vocals and high piercing treeble go well behind of the whole sound scene. No surprise it doesnt tire the ear, seems like designed as for background music on an elevator or reception or office. That of course is for a non burned in Ares2, and then I am used to the Topping E30 sound, which is clean and clinical but probably edged and in general a bit tiring after a while, but very detailed and precise. The bass on the topping much more shy, short, less decay...
> 
> ...


In my system (gaming pc) I noted the ares ii definitely needs at least a iFi iPurifier3 for the usb otherwise it sounds as you noticed, a lack on definition and brighter. Also make sure you enable its over sampling mode, as the nos imho lacks some definition.

Now I wonder if should I have gone with bf2 since it’s usb implementation is supposed to be even better than eitr who also improves ares ii sound.


----------



## AlanU (Jun 22, 2021)

Lolito said:


> One question, what price are your speakers? because my speakers with amp costs new 1100€, I bought them on offer for 660€. Speakers with amplification.
> I bought now a 600€ R2R DAC, it is already an overcost. I understand with systems with a +5000€ speakers, with 1000-2000€ in amp+preamp, I understand all that hassle. but re-clocking the clock for the clock after the clock, usb to coax to XLR ro rca...
> 
> 
> Too much. Schiit Bifrost 3 and be done with it, you heard it here first.


The reason why people purchase  DACs is for the purpose of chasing a preferred SQ. You mentioned how your Toppings DAC is fatiguing over time. This is an indication that the DAC is overly excited for long sessions. I would suggest setting the Toppings DAC aside and just be less critical on your ARES ii as it is breaking in.

You cannot truly judge your new DAC in the preliminary stages of breaking in. Sound silly but not only does the hardware need to settle, your ears require time to adjust.

If a DAC does not fatigue your ears, this doesn't necessarily mean it is not highly detailed. There should be a point where you can get a sense of the music venue. This is where a lot of solid state audio gear can accentuate everything and provides you a sense of "fake" music reproduction. Approach your listening sessions as if you physically go out to a concert. Real world concerts DO NOT sound like a topping DAC you are accustomed too. The natural note decay, audible layers and texture is something that you get in a real venue. Hard to describe but holographic sound is more realistic than a wall of high detail from many cheap and cheerful DACS on the market.

When you say your Toppings lacks note decay. That is not surprising. If you listen to good quality tube gear you'll get additional even harmonics and a longer note decay. This is extremely difficult to obtain with solid state audio gear.

Until you invest in re-clocking gear, you'll eventually realize what you are missing. Even in higher end gear, people often pick their jaws off the ground after buying an audio grade ethernet switch or re-clocking DDC. People can also shock themselves when they purchase a well designed DAC.

My point is once you put emphasis on ultra low jitter, reclocked source. Your entire chain down stream will benefit. If you do not buy into such "cleanes" of source, you will still be happy with your gear. The only warning is do NOT borrow a re-clocking DDC as you will have a hard time giving it back.

My speakers retail is rather spendy  just under 10 grand. I'll have to admit I was not fully satisfied until I did all of this re-clocking investment.

If you are using a $3 bulk cord provided by the DAC manufacturer.....please put some worthy Power cable to feed it.........Don't believe me, I urge your ears to closely listen!!! I'm currently using a Furutech DPS4.1 power cord on my 10yrs old tech Burson DA-160. This $1200 cord + DA-160 (fed with reclocked signal) will force you to scratch your head. I'm still floored how reclocking has made this burr brown 1793 chipset perform to a degree closer to much higher end dacs I've owned or borrowed.


----------



## Lolito (Jun 22, 2021)

I believe you, I just do not have the money or a space for all this, to start with, that costs 3-4000€/m2, so go figure... Topping not really fatiguing, with headphones pretty much never, with speakers, yes, they have something there annoying to my ears. Like I have to eq down a bit the treble, or boost the bass with headphones. With speakers I leave flat eq, I can eq from speakers themselves, but still, the topping was piercing at times, and now by comparison, it is clearly noticeable. Certainly not all dacs sound the same. I could shut my mouth for two weeks, but rather explain the process of burn in for anybody else buying this dac. At the moment, you can play 24-96 or red book through the Ares, sounds the same really. Then in DSD or high res, topping works so much better, less annoying, in hi res the differences or advantages of one over the other are reduced... I like or at least liked high res because not just the detail but sounds better to me, less glare, more precision, more transient impact... Now, the Topping has zero bass in comparison with the ARES. Zero. With Ares the bass player is here in this room, loud. Boooooommmmm ;-D

The whole DDC, I believe you, you have the experience, not me. *But we are going to have to find a poorman DDC option here. The chinese option*. R2R DAC, with so many precision matched resistors, so big toroidal PSU, it costs money, understandable. But DDC, we have to find a cheap thing that converts USB into good coax, cheap from china, ok? it's just a bunch of chips, can be done cheap.

I bought custom power cables, professional for concerts and touring, 0.5m long, thick isolation. 5€ each. Not gonna pay for expensive power cable, I am sure it sounds better, but at that level, I rather save for a Porsche, or a 5000€ coffee making set, or a trip to... Sometimes too much is too much for not sick/rich people.


----------



## Lolito

AlanU said:


> The reason why people purchase  DACs is for the purpose of chasing a preferred SQ. You mentioned how your Toppings DAC is fatiguing over time. This is an indication that the DAC is overly excited for long sessions. I would suggest setting the Toppings DAC aside and just be less critical on your ARES ii as it is breaking in.
> 
> You cannot truly judge your new DAC in the preliminary stages of breaking in. Sound silly but not only does the hardware need to settle, your ears require time to adjust.
> 
> ...


what amp are you using with those speakers? any system photo?


----------



## TheRealDz

Lolito said:


> I believe you, I just do not have the money or a space for all this, to start with, that costs 3-4000€/m2, so go figure... Topping not really fatiguing, with headphones pretty much never, with speakers, yes, they have something there annoying to my ears. Like I have to eq down a bit the treble, or boost the bass with headphones. With speakers I leave flat eq, I can eq from speakers themselves, but still, the topping was piercing at times, and now by comparison, it is clearly noticeable. Certainly not all dacs sound the same. I could shut my mouth for two weeks, but rather explain the process of burn in for anybody else buying this dac. At the moment, you can play 24-96 or red book through the Ares, sounds the same really. Then in DSD or high res, topping works so much better, less annoying, in hi res the differences or advantages of one over the other are reduced... I like or at least liked high res because not just the detail but sounds better to me, less glare, more precision, more transient impact... Now, the Topping has zero bass in comparison with the ARES. Zero. With Ares the bass player is here in this room, loud. Boooooommmmm ;-D
> 
> The whole DDC, I believe you, you have the experience, not me. *But we are going to have to find a poorman DDC option here. The chinese option*. R2R DAC, with so many precision matched resistors, so big toroidal PSU, it costs money, understandable. But DDC, we have to find a cheap thing that converts USB into good coax, cheap from china, ok? it's just a bunch of chips, can be done cheap.
> 
> I bought custom power cables, professional for concerts and touring, 0.5m long, thick isolation. 5€ each. Not gonna pay for expensive power cable, I am sure it sounds better, but at that level, I rather save for a Porsche, or a 5000€ coffee making set, or a trip to... Sometimes too much is too much for not sick/rich people.


The $200 Singxer F-1 is your poor man's DDC, perfect for the Ares.  You are paying only for coax output, which is all your Ares can handle anyway. 

I can't fully convey how much better the Ares sounds with it;  it takes everything the Ares does well, and bumps it up 2 notches (11 notches? 😉) 

Keep in mind my F-1 is not even fully burned in yet, let alone it is still powered by my crappy Microsoft Surface usb out until my Breeze linear power supply gets here. 

But that said, Amazon will deliver my powered USB 2.0 hub today - I am eager to hear what improvements it may make...


----------



## Lolito

Kromen said:


> In my system (gaming pc) I noted the ares ii definitely needs at least a iFi iPurifier3 for the usb otherwise it sounds as you noticed, a lack on definition and brighter. Also make sure you enable its over sampling mode, as the nos imho lacks some definition.
> 
> Now I wonder if should I have gone with bf2 since it’s usb implementation is supposed to be even better than eitr who also improves ares ii sound.


thanks for the tip, I´m waiting for the burn in. Also, I want to test oversampling in Audirvana, versus OS on the dac, or in both... we'll see. So far happy with this dac, can be played very loud, much louder before it's too much.


----------



## Lolito

TheRealDz said:


> The $200 Singxer F-1 is your poor man's DDC, perfect for the Ares.  You are paying only for coax output, which is all your Ares can handle anyway.
> 
> I can't fully convey how much better the Ares sounds with it;  it takes everything the Ares does well, and bumps it up 2 notches (11 notches? 😉)
> 
> ...


what usb 2.0 did you ordered? link? what kinda psu has? is it audiophile approved or should it be replaced by another fancy PSU? 200$ for a usb cleaner not cheap. Here with the case 250€ shipped with case, 300$ for a usb cleaner not cheap man. My headphones are 200$, LOL


----------



## AlanU (Jun 22, 2021)

Lolito said:


> what amp are you using with those speakers? any system photo?


No photo to share.

For my solid state system I've kept it simple with a Parasound A21+ with a matching Parasound P6 Pre-amp. Tube setup I use a locally made Space tech labs SA-700 (200 watt @ 8 ohms) KT150 hybrid tube amp with STL tube pre-amp and STL 24 bit Tube dac.

Time is on our side to slowly develop and accumulate gear that makes your ears happy.

You must also remember that having different DACS simply sound different. The key word is "different".

For example I've borrowed my friends R2R Aqua La Scala DAC which is a spendy $10,000 unit. ABX blind fold test I had my daughter (Pianist) seat herself in front of my system. I used my Burson DA-160, STL tube dac (using EL34 tubes and external super rectifier power supply) and the Aqua dac. Female vocals she immediately said the STL tube dac was spooky real and the artist was singing in our living room. Burson came in 2nd place (not a close second). Following that ....3rd place was the $10,000 La scala dac.

Trio music the La Scala came first, very close 2nd was the STL tube dac and close 3rd was the Burson. All provided excellent imaging but the La Scala had minimally larger wrap around sound stage over my STL tube dac.

Piano and strings my STL tube dac came in a extremely strong performer at #1. The Burson actually came in 2nd as it has a more relaxed analog tail with more realism in note decay. La Scala came in 3rd.

I just recently blew the dust off my old Grant Fidelity B283-mk2 tube buffer with a pair of 1960 Vintage Sylvania 6sn7. Using litz Wire world RCA interconnects I paired it with the Burson DAC. I would say it's the most ghetto fun tweak that actually improved the high hat and imaging of instruments.

Getting back to my solid state system. No word of a lie....... I am thrilled in how the "freebie" internal ESS Sabre32 Reference DAC - ES9018k2M DAC performs in my Parasound p6. It's almost unrealistic to believe that the digital glare or any evidence of fatigue is present while I feed it with a Aural Symphonics Platinum (silver wire) coax cable from my pair of cascaded Mutec Re-clocking DDC setup. If I feed my "freebie" onboard ESS sabre with USB from my Music server or laptop/Topping D10s (used as usb to spdif DDC converter) you would NOT LIKE this fatiguing thin sounding DAC. I could say it's extremely difficult to listen to the Parasound p6 solid state ESS SABRE DAC without the re-clocking DDC setup. This simple solid state system (using p6 pre-amp) to my ears drastically out performed my Mytek liberty/Brooklyn + as far as non stop musical and dynamic flow of analog sound.

I will also mix and match. During the summer I will run my solid state more often than my tube gear. However I sometimes use my tube dac with solid state pre-amp and amp.

Sounds like the Singxer F-1 is a nice option to test out for DDC. This slow investment in audio gear is painful and expensive. I will just say that 1 mutec would be endgame for most. It will be a beneficial improvements across the board as you cry once and pay for such a device. I will say that there is absolutely no comparison using a standard DDC to a Re-clocking type. My friend has a Aqua Formula DAC and he feeds it two cascaded Mutecs. Note the 20 grand dac has a very sophisticated re-clocking setup internally ........he continues to feed it his "endgame" source cleanes. Even at that top caliber gear it's difficult "not" to use the re-clocking DDC setup. It truly gets even better!!!!!!!!!!!

Oddly some say that there is NO NEED for such a DDC setup to feed a $$$$ flagship DAC......Many high end owners will beg to differ. This is why I try to make awareness to modest system owners to "cry hard" once and vastly improve the sound as they clean up their front end source. It's almost instant "endgame" cleanes.


----------



## AlanU

TheRealDz said:


> The $200 Singxer F-1 is your poor man's DDC, perfect for the Ares.  You are paying only for coax output, which is all your Ares can handle anyway.
> 
> I can't fully convey how much better the Ares sounds with it;  it takes everything the Ares does well, and bumps it up 2 notches (11 notches? 😉)
> 
> ...


Allow the DDC to break in. The sound should become more relaxed and music will flow even more freely. As he re-locking occurs you may start to hear more of the "venue" and the micro details starts to reveal itself. How? the noise floor can drop and lets those details come out freely to your ears.


----------



## joseG86

Lolito said:


> what usb 2.0 did you ordered? link? what kinda psu has? is it audiophile approved or should it be replaced by another fancy PSU? 200$ for a usb cleaner not cheap. Here with the case 250€ shipped with case, 300$ for a usb cleaner not cheap man. My headphones are 200$, LOL


I found the problem and the fix for all your "troubles with sound"



> My headphones are 200$, LOL


----------



## TheRealDz

Lolito said:


> I believe you, I just do not have the money or a space for all this, to start with, that costs 3-4000€/m2, so go figure... Topping not really fatiguing, with headphones pretty much never, with speakers, yes, they have something there annoying to my ears. Like I have to eq down a bit the treble, or boost the bass with headphones. With speakers I leave flat eq, I can eq from speakers themselves, but still, the topping was piercing at times, and now by comparison, it is clearly noticeable. Certainly not all dacs sound the same. I could shut my mouth for two weeks, but rather explain the process of burn in for anybody else buying this dac. At the moment, you can play 24-96 or red book through the Ares, sounds the same really. Then in DSD or high res, topping works so much better, less annoying, in hi res the differences or advantages of one over the other are reduced... I like or at least liked high res because not just the detail but sounds better to me, less glare, more precision, more transient impact... Now, the Topping has zero bass in comparison with the ARES. Zero. With Ares the bass player is here in this room, loud. Boooooommmmm ;-D
> 
> The whole DDC, I believe you, you have the experience, not me. *But we are going to have to find a poorman DDC option here. The chinese option*. R2R DAC, with so many precision matched resistors, so big toroidal PSU, it costs money, understandable. But DDC, we have to find a cheap thing that converts USB into good coax, cheap from china, ok? it's just a bunch of chips, can be done cheap.
> 
> I bought custom power cables, professional for concerts and touring, 0.5m long, thick isolation. 5€ each. Not gonna pay for expensive power cable, I am sure it sounds better, but at that level, I rather save for a Porsche, or a 5000€ coffee making set, or a trip to... Sometimes too much is too much for not sick/rich people.


The $200 Singxer F-1 is your poor man's DDC, perfect for the Ares.  You are paying only for coax output, which is all your Ares can handle anyway.

I can't fully convey how much better the Ares sounds with it;  it takes everything the Ares does well, and bumps it up 2 notches (11 notches? 😉)

Keep in mind my F-1 is not even fully burned in yet, let alone it is still powered by my crappy Microsoft Surface usb out until my Breeze linear power supply gets here.

But that said, Amazon will deliver my powered USB 2.0 hub today - I am eager to hear what improvements it may make.


Lolito said:


> what usb 2.0 did you ordered? link? what kinda psu has? is it audiophile approved or should it be replaced by another fancy PSU? 200$ for a usb cleaner not cheap. Here with the case 250€ shipped with case, 300$ for a usb cleaner not cheap man. My headphones are 200$, LOL


https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07W3M16C1/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_glt_fabc_Y9BTWWFE24MFSGWBVW0A

I don't know how audio approved it is, but I put the effort to find a USB 2.0 device. 

My hope is that when my psu arrives, I will power my devices with the psu and injector cables instead of the hub. But the hub will allow me to connect multiple USB sources to my F-1.


----------



## elnero

I'm a bit confused with all this DDC talk. I understand that there's benefits to be had if you're using USB but what about someone who's using coax from a streamer (Bluesound Node 2 in my case) to the Ares II?


----------



## sajunky

TheRealDz said:


> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07W3M16C1/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_glt_fabc_Y9BTWWFE24MFSGWBVW0A
> 
> I don't know how audio approved it is, but I put the effort to find a USB 2.0 device.
> 
> My hope is that when my psu arrives, I will power my devices with the psu and injector cables instead of the hub. But the hub will allow me to connect multiple USB sources to my F-1.


Not sure. It doesn't say it has multiple transaction translators (MTT), which means it is good for a single device. Besides, it is better to separate sources grounds with individual hubs.


----------



## Lolito (Jun 22, 2021)

TheRealDz said:


> The $200 Singxer F-1 is your poor man's DDC, perfect for the Ares.  You are paying only for coax output, which is all your Ares can handle anyway.
> 
> I can't fully convey how much better the Ares sounds with it;  it takes everything the Ares does well, and bumps it up 2 notches (11 notches? 😉)
> 
> ...


Maybe we could agree on setting that Singxer F-1 as the best usb cleaner for the Ares in a circa 200$/€ category. The poor man solution would be the aforementioned cheap usb 2.0 hub, with a separate power supply, linear if possible maybe... that would be the poor man thing, gotta set a price for such category, say 50$/€. So, what is in the market for around 100$/€ would be interesting. I wonder if there is already a thread for that chinese box, with double clock inside.

https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/digi...i2s-aes-2x-tcxo-otg-24bit-192khz-p-10547.html

Anyone has experience with one of these?? based around Xmos 208 chip... Seems that coaxial connector is output.


----------



## sajunky (Jun 22, 2021)

Lolito said:


> https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/digi...i2s-aes-2x-tcxo-otg-24bit-192khz-p-10547.html
> 
> Anyone has experience with one of these?? based around Xmos 208 chip... Seems that coaxial connector is output.


You don't need I2S, but for that price you could get a current standard over LVDS/HDMI, not an obsolete RJ45. Also there is no DSD support, a main reason of looking for something else.


----------



## TheRealDz (Jun 22, 2021)

Lolito said:


> Maybe we could agree on setting that Singxer F-1 as the best usb cleaner for the Ares in a circa 200$/€ category. The poor man solution would be the aforementioned cheap usb 2.0 hub, with a separate power supply, linear if possible maybe... that would be the poor man thing, gotta set a price for such category, say 50$/€. So, what is in the market for around 100$/€ would be interesting. I wonder if there is already a thread for that chinese box, with double clock inside.
> 
> https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/digi...i2s-aes-2x-tcxo-otg-24bit-192khz-p-10547.html
> 
> Anyone has experience with one of these?? based around Xmos 208 chip... Seems that coaxial connector is output.


Note that your Audiophonics unit also has TCXO crystal clocks, which are the essence of what you are paying for.  Unfortunately, they are considered the least desirable clocks vs Accusilicon or Crystek (depending who you talk with, one or the other is the top choice).  The F-1 in contrast has Crystek.


----------



## Lolito (Jun 22, 2021)

ok, so the audiophonics thing is pure crap basically, got you, good to know!! Has anyone confirmed this via ear time, or we do like Amir?

If we can confirm the 100$ this is BS, then 200$ doesnt look that bad. Question: what happens if we put one of these fancy DDC to say a topping E30? maybe it sounds less edgy?

UPDATE: What would be the advantages of say a Singxer SU-1, or the newer SU-2 over the F1? those are just couple hundred more... can one of those SU-1 or 2 drive 2 DAC's at the same time? say one via coax, the other one via optical, so the two dacs play at the same time, from the same USB cable, so i can switch with the preamp between my delta sigma dac and my r2r dac, and do A/B switching in real time... is this possible or only in my dreams?


----------



## TheRealDz

Lolito said:


> ok, so the audiophonics thing is pure crap basically, got you, good to know!! Has anyone confirmed this via ear time, or we do like Amir?
> 
> If we can confirm the 100$ this is BS, then 200$ doesnt look that bad. Question: what happens if we put one of these fancy DDC to say a topping E30? maybe it sounds less edgy?


I can't say the $100 unit is crap - I haven't heard it. In fact the Audio G-d DDC uses the TX clocks for their base version.  I was actually considering the same unit as you until I went a bit deeper down the rabbit hole. 

From reading on this and other forums, some of the budget units are not considered bad - eg, Breeze, etc.  They just conclusively are not considered as good as the F-1.


----------



## iFi audio

AlanU said:


> Oddly some say that there is NO NEED for such a DDC setup to feed a $$$$ flagship DAC



It surely doesn't hurt to try DDC first


----------



## sajunky

It was posted already, not sure in this section:

Douk Audio U2. It claims a quality regulator, OS-CON/Panasonic FC caps, but there are three versions, not sure whether the cheapest one comes with. Standard version comes with SCTF, standard type, but not bad quality. Note of a professional quality isolation transformer for COAX. The other page of the same store give a link to the ebay, where you can purchase TXCO or Crystek version, but it goes expensive. I would rather get a standard version and perform $30 upgrade to the Crystek oscilators myself.

There is also a funny model U2 Mini sans I2S, but I don't recommend it due to the more leaking isolator (inside a socket) and a cost is the same.


----------



## Lolito (Jun 22, 2021)

sajunky said:


> It was posted already, not sure in this section:
> 
> Douk Audio U2. It claims a quality regulator, OS-CON/Panasonic FC caps, but there are three versions, not sure whether the cheapest one comes with. Standard version comes with SCTF, standard type, but not bad quality. Note of a professional quality isolation transformer for COAX. The other page of the same store give a link to the ebay, where you can purchase TXCO or Crystek version, but it goes expensive. I would rather get a standard version and perform $30 upgrade to the Crystek oscilators myself.
> 
> There is also a funny model U2 Mini sans I2S, but I don't recommend it due to the more leaking isolator (inside a socket) and a cost is the same.


That is a very nice looking unit, with 5V input, so it is much smaller and you can use either a proper linear PSU or a cheap one, or use your existing PSU, great! Question would be if it makes an improvement, and how much each version... top one is 190$, cheapest 40$, medium 85$ and has those golden clocks already mentioned as not the best really...  Very interesting little piece. This I would call it a decent *poor man DDC*, if it works at least half good, not? Do you think such a little guy can improve an Ares2 or a regular delta sigma thing? I wonder if it can output simultaneously by coax and optical...

Would this bring the Ares to max performance or will I want to rather get a singxer f1 or SU2... Su2 looks amazing, but, will that be finally the end, no more boxes need, or will I want to get yet another box... it's really an endless rabbit hole like with bikes or espresso, the sky is the limit... Anyhow, considering for an Ares the I2S will not be used... this thing still has it, for the future, I think the 40$ version of the other one of 85$, if they can provide a better source to the dac...


----------



## PopZeus

Argh, this thread got me to try out the Singxer F1. I'm still a little skeptical of DDCs but I know coaxial sounds better than USB, usually. However, that's not an option with a computer. Anyways, the F1 is really basic it seems. It has a USB in and a coaxial out, and... I guess it runs on bus power?


----------



## Lolito

258€ shipped here singxer su-1, new. Is that one better than F1? it looks like it.


----------



## TheRealDz

Lolito said:


> 258€ shipped here singxer su-1, new. Is that one better than F1? it looks like it.


Yes - it is better, and there is a whole modding upgrade path for it.


----------



## AlanU

elnero said:


> I'm a bit confused with all this DDC talk. I understand that there's benefits to be had if you're using USB but what about someone who's using coax from a streamer (Bluesound Node 2 in my case) to the Ares II?


The issue with the Node 2i is that it has an average switching power supply internally. This has been known to be the weakness of that product. This is where 3rd party LPS units can be swapped to improve SQ. 

I would assume other slightly more expensive music streamers with built in LPS would outperform the Node 2i sonically. 

I do not own the Node 2i but I'm so tempted to test one. Feeding the node 2i coax into the "CD" coax input on my Mutec DDC. I am speculating that it would be a fantastic user interface / sonic performer to many 2-4 grand non reclocking, music streamers. 

Ideally the new version Node 2i will have usb music stream output unlike the older version. USB can possibly be a better setup for me as it would have Galvanic isolation to block the noise of the adequate switching power supply. Silly the Bluesound didn't just increase the price a tad and install a better LPS power supply. People just love the Bluesound interface.


----------



## AlanU

sajunky said:


> It was posted already, not sure in this section:
> 
> Douk Audio U2. It claims a quality regulator, OS-CON/Panasonic FC caps, but there are three versions, not sure whether the cheapest one comes with. Standard version comes with SCTF, standard type, but not bad quality. Note of a professional quality isolation transformer for COAX. The other page of the same store give a link to the ebay, where you can purchase TXCO or Crystek version, but it goes expensive. I would rather get a standard version and perform $30 upgrade to the Crystek oscilators myself.
> 
> There is also a funny model U2 Mini sans I2S, but I don't recommend it due to the more leaking isolator (inside a socket) and a cost is the same.


Wouldn't any decent coax have some implementation  of a high quality xformer? 

All this talk of DDC is great awareness. Talking about TXCO ......my Silent Angel N8 audiofile grade Ethernet switch uses that type of clock. Yes....I'm also redundant in using two Silent Angel n8 ethernet switches (with Forester F1 LPS dc feed) as a reclocking of ethernet signal. Before people start talking about a standard in ethernet error correction.......I have done ABX blindfolded tests with NO verbal communication to my "test subjects" and the difference was consistent in how things suddenly becomes more refined.  Comparing wifi and even my cheap dlink ethernet switch degraded the SQ.  Both my 2 channel hifi and even my apple 4k tv on my adequate Denon 9.2 channel AVR driving Kef R300 bookshelf speakers improved in detail using such an audiograde ethernet switch. I was floored as I did all of this geek fun tests ABX blind folded hearing tests.

That Douk Audio sounds like a neat device.....


----------



## Lolito

The Ares2 sounds like everything is mp3 128, to be honest. Doesnt matter hi res or dsd, all sounds like a very analog and not piercing and smooth mp3 128. Sounds like an ipod 5.5 dac from 2007.


----------



## godmax

Lolito said:


> The Ares2 sounds like everything is mp3 128, to be honest. Doesnt matter hi res or dsd, all sounds like a very analog and not piercing and smooth mp3 128. Sounds like an ipod 5.5 dac from 2007.


...well, not really😁
You have the Ares2 like one day, right? Give the Ares2 and yourself some hours and you will realize it’s not the case at all.


----------



## simon740

Lolito said:


> The Ares2 sounds like everything is mp3 128, to be honest. Doesnt matter hi res or dsd, all sounds like a very analog and not piercing and smooth mp3 128. Sounds like an ipod 5.5 dac from 2007.


Something else is wrong with your system.


----------



## Lolito

simon740 said:


> Something else is wrong with your system.


Indeed, the dac sounds like 2007.


----------



## joseG86

Lolito said:


> Indeed, the dac sounds like 2007.


I would give the Ares 100+ hours


----------



## sajunky (Jun 23, 2021)

AlanU said:


> Wouldn't any decent coax have some implementation  of a high quality xformer?
> 
> All this talk of DDC is great awareness. Talking about TXCO ......my Silent Angel N8 audiofile grade Ethernet switch uses that type of clock. Yes....I'm also redundant in using two Silent Angel n8 ethernet switches (with Forester F1 LPS dc feed) as a reclocking of ethernet signal. Before people start talking about a standard in ethernet error correction.......I have done ABX blindfolded tests with NO verbal communication to my "test subjects" and the difference was consistent in how things suddenly becomes more refined.  Comparing wifi and even my cheap dlink ethernet switch degraded the SQ.  Both my 2 channel hifi and even my apple 4k tv on my adequate Denon 9.2 channel AVR driving Kef R300 bookshelf speakers improved in detail using such an audiograde ethernet switch. I was floored as I did all of this geek fun tests ABX blind folded hearing tests.
> 
> That Douk Audio sounds like a neat device.....


Pulse transformer is a key performance item. The other is a low jitter clock and PCB layout. Unfortunately Douk is a two sides design, without a common ground plane layer. In other words you can't expect a comparable performance with top products on the market.

As for audiophile-grade Ethernet switches, they are not reclocking audio signal, their clock is not for audio, but assembly packet frames, completely different. Similar to the USB reclockers, all marketing rubbish. These products work, as they redirect ground loops, have better power supply, thats all. An approach should be similar as with USB hubs. A dedicated switch for the DAC (no other devices connected) and a quality power supply.

With network devices there is a dilema. A cable always carries a leak and WiFi inside a device is a source of HF noise. What to do? Very simple. Disable internal WiFi and use a WiFi extender like this on the short Ethernet cable (working in wireless adapter mode). It is nice if it plugs directly to the wall socket.


----------



## Lolito (Jun 23, 2021)

I am going to purchase 3x Denafrips IRIS, I will install them on cascade, like AlanU. If he cascade devices and his daughter is a pianist, I would jump off a window if he tells me to.

So, I am going to cascade those 3, and the signal will be so clean and transparent that I will be able to eat on it. What do you say?


----------



## sajunky

Lolito said:


> I am going to purchase 3x Denafrips IRIS, I will install them on cascade, like AlanU. If he cascade devices and his daughter is a pianist, I would jump off a window if he tells me to.


He has a Mutec.


----------



## Lolito (Jun 23, 2021)

sajunky said:


> He has a Mutec.


Exactly, I know how to read sajunky, but thank you non the less. I want to do it differently, just for the sake of originality. Or should I better cascade a Singxer SU-1, then SU-2, then SU-6. Triple cascade.

Back to reality, the Ares is like a comfy pair of jeans, wasted and broken and comfortable. like a pre streched pre shrunk jeans with wholes. Like some kind of Kurko jeans, for new rich kids. Now, if you want to clean the signal of the ares before it enters the dac... considering the sound signature... maybe it is actually better, but I would rather get a Pontus, if that gives more detail with the same flow, to be honest, and be done with the usb cleaning thing cascading stuff, LOL.

Cleaning the signal for an Ares seems to me seems like buying a jeans with holes on it already, then looking for a way to close those holes and get the jeans tinted back to dark blue... no?


----------



## AlanU

sajunky said:


> Pulse transformer is a key performance item. The other is a low jitter clock and PCB layout. Unfortunately Douk is a two sides design, without a common ground plane layer. In other words you can't expect a comparable performance with top products on the market.
> 
> As for audiophile-grade Ethernet switches, they are not reclocking audio signal, their clock is not for audio, but assembly packet frames, completely different. Similar to the USB reclockers, all marketing rubbish. These products work, as they redirect ground loops, have better power supply, thats all. An approach should be similar as with USB hubs. A dedicated switch for the DAC (no other devices connected) and a quality power supply.
> 
> With network devices there is a dilema. A cable always carries a leak and WiFi inside a device is a source of HF noise. What to do? Very simple. Disable internal WiFi and use a WiFi extender like this on the short Ethernet cable (working in wireless adapter mode). It is nice if it plugs directly to the wall socket.


As we all try to extract as much as possible, we can get somewhat overly hardcore.

As for my setup. My ISP has fiber upto my house. from that point it's feeds a cable modem.  Note I have 2 external IP's on my modem. I have 2 routers: 

#1 for high traffic duties for my  household (netflix, tablets/smartphones, desktop, IP cameras etc). This cable modem/router has it's wifi deactivated and I use 3  Ubiquiti Unifi LR access point units.  

#2 I have a dedicated router specifically for my 2 channel and apple 4k tv player. This is where I use my cascaded Silent Angel n8 audiofile grade ethernet switches and Forester LPS. Wifi from my close proximity dedicated router is used for my Audirvana 3.5 wifi to control Tidal feed / DLNA setup. 

I'm familiar with all of this packet discussion. If you have ever auditioned such "audiofile grade" ethernet switches USING the supplied "medical grade" switching power supply wall warts.  Disclaimer, such improvements is not on par with the Re-clocking DDC. However, with such ethernet switches will hear a more analog refined, relaxed  sound quality. This is easily repeatable time and time again using the ABX blind fold listening "test". Adding the LPS further changed the SQ. I would advise people to spend their budget on the best components first but retain the idea of Reclocking DDC on the top of the list. The Ethernet switch is still an upstream source in my philosophy of "clean in = clean out". I am putting serious efforts not to inject "Garbage in = Garbage out". I feed my Silent Angel Z1 music server with treated ethernet source. I will say would have difficulty dumping my Mutec setup or cascaded SA N8 Ethernet switches. 

It is common fact that powerline ethernet adapters have short life. Majority of the main players in such product run hot and die within a year++. I am actually using a Moca system that uses existing COAX lines for my tv cable. That is AWESOME in throughput and decent as it does not destroy gamers in latency. My kids has an entire entertainment recreation room downstairs fully equipped with hardwire (via MOCA adapter) as well as Unifi access point/wifi. All feeds the gaming rigs, home theater setup, netflix etc etc.


----------



## AlanU

sajunky said:


> He has a Mutec.


In discussion of the time frame of stock.........to purchase #3 unit. 

All of this reclocking stuff is not something that adds. This treated signal is sifting through the noise/grunge/dirt that is destroying and hiding details that already exists in the square wave music data source.

The change in SQ can be vaguely described as .....extracting details without an overload of information. As things becomes more layered and textured, this transforms a dimensional sound that is filled with musical relaxed sound while not scrubbing out frequencies. 

The ESS Sabre chip in my Parasound p6 is your average "whatever" Digital to Analog converter. Not sure if others have gotten as silly and hardcore with "source". Now the P6 is incredibly detailed but what strikes me in "awe" is that it sound so relaxed and musical. Not a hint of fatigue while teleworking for 8-10+ hours. Is it the best??? Absolutely not the best.....however, it's has this 3 dimensional sound that I never expected in a cheap "freebie" internal DAC add on. 

I take this re-clocking business as a separate entity. Similar to people separating a home theater setup and isolating it from a 2 channel hifi setup. Oddly the Mutec stuff is what I currently own and I isolate it as a "nice to have" supporting setup. When I view my cheap internal freebie dac in my Parasound p6 pre-amp, I now audibly hear a sound quality of a DAC in the higher tier DAC category. I know its a cheap ESS sabre chipset but audibly it was not far off from the Aqua La Scala 10 grand dac. No justification...... this is what my transparent system dictates through my Element Earth Totem speakers. Yes systems vary and mileage varies. We must use personal ears and personal gear to determine what matches well.  

For certain the Ares ii DAC is a great performer but like any dac on the market. It excels in some genre and no so much in others. Also along the lines of solid state gear ownership and Vacuum tube gear. Synergy is truly a huge factor.


----------



## Lolito (Jun 23, 2021)

AlanU said:


> As we all try to extract as much as possible, we can get somewhat overly hardcore.
> 
> As for my setup. My ISP has fiber upto my house. from that point it's feeds a cable modem.  Note I have 2 external IP's on my modem. I have 2 routers:
> 
> ...


Alan: cascade is the way to go I think, double cascade all, and let us know.

Key here will be, as you said, different, not better or worse. I find the ares 2 opening a bit, sounds great for everything acoustic strings little instruments, so any unplugged session, flamenco guitar, acoustic guitars... specially with a plastic ribbon tweeter speaker like i have. In other tracks though, the vocals went way way back... certainly less tiring for the ear, easier for long hours of listening. it certainly will work for listening to music all evening I think, can't do that with the topping. Also less exciting sound though, that needs to be said too.

I like it with NOS, then I do OS 2x in Audirvana.

It kinda lacks detail in a way, still, must be burning in still.


----------



## AlanU

Lolito said:


> Alan: cascade is the way to go I think, double cascade all, and let us know.
> 
> Key here will be, as you said, different, not better or worse. I find the ares 2 opening a bit, sounds great for everything acoustic strings little instruments, so any unplugged session, flamenco guitar, acoustic guitars... specially with a plastic ribbon tweeter speaker like i have. In other tracks though, the vocals went way way back... certainly less tiring for the ear, easier for long hours of listening. it certainly will work for listening to music all evening I think, can't do that with the topping. Also less exciting sound though, that has to be said to.
> 
> ...


Try a shielded power cord. 

You have a familiarity of a common solid state dac and how it reproduces music. Many cheap/cheerful dacs just provide a wall of detail and forward. 

The relaxed sound may be fooling you. You may be too use to how solid state dacs commonly sound. 

Do yourself a favour and download Audirvana studio. It sounds better than my lifetime Audirvana 3.5.


----------



## Lolito (Jun 23, 2021)

I was wondering Alan, since the Mutec can do such marvelous results with a sabre crappy dac as you said, have you tested it with say a RME delta sigma, or singxer delta sigma expensive dac, or schiit top of the line... just wondering what was the result. Maybe delta sigma can also sound better with a reclocker ddc.

UPDATE: About the Ares, I also do notice, with such voicing, boy, I can play the speakers way way louder than before. This is from day one, big time difference. With the topping, specially when closer to the speaker, ufff, can't put it loud more than one song. With the Ares 2 voicing, it asks for louder and it doesn't hurt the ear. This is a very big difference between the two, and very easy to notice it. On the other hand, for say listening to spoken word, radio, talk show, podcasts, at low level listening, the topping will be clearer I think, more legible...


----------



## Pharmaboy

PopZeus said:


> Argh, this thread got me to try out the Singxer F1. I'm still a little skeptical of DDCs but I know coaxial sounds better than USB, usually. However, that's not an option with a computer. Anyways, the F1 is really basic it seems. It has a USB in and a coaxial out, and... I guess it runs on bus power?


I just bought a Matrix Audio X-SPDIF 2 ... it's a reclocker + SPDIF converter. I read many good things about it (and other reclocking DDCs) and couldn't find one used, so bought it from Arthur @power Holdings. He's a great guy from whom I bought my Lake People G109-A some years ago (he's the U.S. distributor for Violectric & Lake People). He also helped me replace the volume pot's board on my V281.

Denafrips' DDCs are getting a lot of positive talk on another thread here. Their least expensive reclocking DDC is the Iris, which cost ~50% more than the Matrix. From what I can tell, Alvin is another great guy. But I decided to go with the somewhat cheaper, also well-reviewed Matrix unit.

I've used SPDIF converters for years & greatly prefer the sound of the coax input on every DAC I've had here (my really fine-sounding Oyaide DR-510 silver coax cable sealed the deal...great sound). Now I'll find out if reclocking adds much--and if so, how much.


----------



## Pharmaboy

AlanU said:


> As we all try to extract as much as possible, we can get somewhat overly hardcore.
> 
> As for my setup. My ISP has fiber upto my house. from that point it's feeds a cable modem.  Note I have 2 external IP's on my modem. I have 2 routers:
> 
> ...



How nice (and unexpected) to run into another MOCA user. I ended up getting my MOCA units when I realized there was absolutely no way to get ethernet cable from the router all the way to the other side of the house (~60 ft away  w/many internal barriers) to get hardwired signal to my 77" LG 4K OLED. 

But there already were a couple long cable TV/coax wires spanning the entire house--so I used the MOCA boxes to repurpose one of those wires for conveying high bitrate internet signal to the TV. It worked like a charm from day-1 and not 1 hiccup in 2+ years.

And believe me, this OLED TV would show me very clearly & quickly if anything was wrong w/incoming signal...


----------



## PopZeus

Pharmaboy said:


> I just bought a Matrix Audio X-SPDIF 2 ... it's a reclocker + SPDIF converter. I read many good things about it (and other reclocking DDCs) and couldn't find one used, so bought it from Arthur @power Holdings. He's a great guy from whom I bought my Lake People G109-A some years ago (he's the U.S. distributor for Violectric & Lake People). He also helped me replace the volume pot's board on my V281.
> 
> Denafrips' DDCs are getting a lot of positive talk on another thread here. Their least expensive reclocking DDC is the Iris, which cost ~50% more than the Matrix. From what I can tell, Alvin is another great guy. But I decided to go with the somewhat cheaper, also well-reviewed Matrix unit.
> 
> I've used SPDIF converters for years & greatly prefer the sound of the coax input on every DAC I've had here (my really fine-sounding Oyaide DR-510 silver coax cable sealed the deal...great sound). Now I'll find out if reclocking adds much--and if so, how much.


Yeah, I was checking out the Iris but it was just too much for me to spend without knowing how it would sound. Honestly, I had no idea that there were so many DDC options, but they also can help fix chip DACs as well so I guess I shouldn't be too surprised. Anyways, I figure if I like what the F1 does for my desktop rig, then I can at least properly level-set my expectations with a better DDC down the road. I'm really trying to keep my desktop clutter down... and it's not working lol


----------



## AlanU

Lolito said:


> I was wondering Alan, since the Mutec can do such marvelous results with a sabre crappy dac as you said, have you tested it with say a RME delta sigma, or singxer delta sigma expensive dac, or schiit top of the line... just wondering what was the result. Maybe delta sigma can also sound better with a reclocker ddc.
> 
> UPDATE: About the Ares, I also do notice, with such voicing, boy, I can play the speakers way way louder than before. This is from day one, big time difference. With the topping, specially when closer to the speaker, ufff, can't put it loud more than one song. With the Ares 2 voicing, it asks for louder and it doesn't hurt the ear. This is a very big difference between the two, and very easy to notice it. On the other hand, for say listening to spoken word, radio, talk show, podcasts, at low level listening, the topping will be clearer I think, more legible...


I am a believer that non reclocking dacs will benefit by a very large margin. For the higher end dacs with input reclocking cct's those will sound very good without a re-clocking ddc.  HOWEVER, with my personal ears I'll take  reclocking regarldess of what dac I audition/own. There's a very strong following for the R2R Aqua dacs and you WILL sonically hear a difference feeding a DDC to a $10,000 + DAC. 

I'm currently listening to Stefano Battaglia Trio - The River of Anyder. Feeding my cascaded Mutec MC-3+ USB DDC (x2) the wrap around sound stage, depth, layers and insane holographic image is coming from my cheap on board DAC in my Parasound solid state P6 pre-amp. Using Audirvana Studio is like a BOOST in analog bliss. I cannot get over how Audirvana studio destroys my Audirvana 3.5 (lifetime License). 

Using Audirvana studio I am finding that deactivating the "upsampling" provides the best holographic image.

Lolito, see if you can audition a decent power cord. I've tested some $$$$$ power cords but sometimes you can get some serious performance out of DIY cords. I am currently running a Gotham 85055. I terminate one end with a cryoed gold plated plug and the IEC is rhodium plated. Rather meaty at 10awg with incredible shielding. It was rather a fun hybrid termination slap together diy but it held its own against a Tchernov Reference power cord $$$$. DIY gotham cord is from Switzerland and is a nice cord for the money.  This inexpensive diy has replaced my Furutech S55N and S032 power cords $$. You do NOT have to spend a lot of money sometimes.


----------



## simon740

@Lolito I can trade my RME Adi-2 dac for your Ares II 😁 
If you wanna a detailed sound without fatigue


----------



## Lolito

I bought new 0.5m power cords for my amp and 2 dacs. Less than 5€ each, but I am opened to test different power cables after say 10 years. So in 2031, if i am still alive i would give a try to different cables, but these are new.


----------



## Lolito

simon740 said:


> @Lolito I can trade my RME Adi-2 dac for your Ares II 😁
> If you wanna a detailed sound without fatigue


Rme will not sound better than a decent topping, just more features and eq and display, but same kind of sound.


----------



## simon740 (Jun 24, 2021)

Lolito said:


> Rme will not sound better than a decent topping, just more features and eq and display, but same kind of sound.


Ohhh... you are wrong 
And I just kidding about trade in..
With all respect, I think the problem is your headphones and the speakers. 
The Ares II is very very good DAC. I have Topping D30, and this is MEH..

regards,
Simon


----------



## simon740

Lolito said:


> I bought new 0.5m power cords for my amp and 2 dacs. Less than 5€ each, but I am opened to test different power cables after say 10 years. So in 2031, if i am still alive i would give a try to different cables, but these are new.


You are funny


----------



## Lolito

simon740 said:


> Ohhh... you are wrong
> And I just kidding about trade in..
> With all respect, I think the problem is your headphones and the speakers.
> The Ares II is very very good DAC. I have Topping D30 too, and this is MEH..
> ...



My topping is E30, not D30. Problem is i am not sick/crazy enough yet. But give a couple years, i will be crazy like you and alanu, cascading crap, LOL.


----------



## simon740

Lolito said:


> My topping is E30, not D30. Problem is i am not sick/crazy enough yet. But give a couple years, i will be crazy like you and alanu, cascading crap, LOL.


You don’t have to be crazy/sick. Just choose wisely. Synergy is very important.

regards,
Simon


----------



## Lolito

Of course, of course. Yes.


----------



## AlanU

Pharmaboy said:


> How nice (and unexpected) to run into another MOCA user. I ended up getting my MOCA units when I realized there was absolutely no way to get ethernet cable from the router all the way to the other side of the house (~60 ft away  w/many internal barriers) to get hardwired signal to my 77" LG 4K OLED.
> 
> But there already were a couple long cable TV/coax wires spanning the entire house--so I used the MOCA boxes to repurpose one of those wires for conveying high bitrate internet signal to the TV. It worked like a charm from day-1 and not 1 hiccup in 2+ years.
> 
> And believe me, this OLED TV would show me very clearly & quickly if anything was wrong w/incoming signal...


The coax / ethernet adapter is quite impressive. The powerline Dlink I owned always ran incredibly hot an it shorted out my ethernet line. It literally killed my internet service to my entire house!!!!!!! As I removed the defective unit my ISP service went back online.

The MOCA adapter has been flawless and the throughput is stable and solid. Also it's substantially faster than the mediocre performance of the Ethernet powerline adapters.

When it comes to wifi, I find the access points made by Ubiquiti to be top notch. They are rated enterprise grade for consumer products. However I am still finding that wifi does degrade my 2channel setup for some reason.


----------



## AlanU

Lolito said:


> My topping is E30, not D30. Problem is i am not sick/crazy enough yet. But give a couple years, i will be crazy like you and alanu, cascading crap, LOL.


In due time you can accumulate gear to your preference. 

I took a serious leap of faith in purchasing my first audiograde/ethernet switch. I had full refund guarantee and I was ready to take advantage of such "audition" and return the "fake advertisement".............. Let's just say I immediately purchased a 2nd unit and Linear power supply. ABX blind fold (non verbal too)  test was 100% conclusive that it made a noticeable difference. I did not even know 1 person that owned such a "so called gimmick". People have fed "normal" ethernet switches with linear power supplies and did not get the same performance results. 

My other blind leap of faith was also the first re-clocking DDC. Local dealer handed me a brand new box. Told me to test it out. I immediately called back and said I'm keeping it!!!!!!! This was not a matter of crazy....it was a shocking difference. I was using a Topping D10()s) as a regular ddc.  There is some serious reviews of the Topping D10(s) being an amazing usb to spdif (DDC) unit. The difference from that 100+ dollar "regular ddc/dac" to the Mutec's is a huge difference in $$$$$. The difference between D10s to MC-3+USB is like night and day using the identical audio gear/speakers. The cost of the spendy Mutec equated to a level of buying a new higher tier DAC, Pre-amp, amp etc etc. Collectively the SQ was not subtle, in fact it was more like jumping to decent to higher up the chain / flagship. 

I would love to compare a Mutec/Ares II vs a new Venus ii DAC with no external re-clocker. This is where personal preference and performance can get "strange". The strange impression I am getting is that once a signal is reclocked. It's open game in sonic performance between cheaper to $$$$$ flagship DACS. The big bottleneck with cheaper dacs is the cost savings of power supply and added engineering / r&d in the internal layout. However this is were I am finding cheaper dacs with an excellent reclocking DDC will be almost like a jump,  shoulder to shoulder in SQ performance to a much more expensive dac. Add an external  re-clocker to a venus ii,  should again improve the sonics as it is redundant in reclocking.

Not a matter of justification of money expenditure. I'd honestly suggest people who own an ARES II to buy a re-clocker DDC before moving up the chain in $$$ dacs. I have yet to hear anyone complain of the limitation of 24/192 using coax. Seems the Denafrips DDC units are getting a bad wrap on the performance of the I2S port. 

I literally seldom used my Sabre 9018 internal/onboard dac that lives in my modest Parasound p6 pre-amp. Feeding this onboard DAC has completely transformed the sound to a level where I genuinely feel would easily compete with your standard Topping D90 units or better. Yes.......... it went from edgy non musical average "cheap" dac sound to a big change in layers and texture with meat. Simultaneously I feed my Space tech labs tube, Burson DA-160 and Parasound onboard dac. Some may comment that the Burson is old and cheap and the onboard parasound dac is a "feebie". Yes indeed however as far as musical enjoyment it destroys my previous mytek liberty and Brooklyn+ (now gone). My Space tech labs setup I have a modded 1940's Western Electric rectifier power supply setup and Mullard EL32 buffers on the DAC. So far that setup is untouchable in SQ.....even my audiofile friends chuckle in the performance of this locally made dac/super rectifier setup (dac/ external power supply setup).

Again, it's not always about the money expenditure ( to a degree). Once you go out of your way in "endgame" source. Anything you ever buy in the future will completely max out in sonic performance. This is where 2 identical rooms with identical gear, with the exception of one using a reclocking DDC. The cleansed source from the re-clocker will have a considerable higher end refinement that the other dac cannot achieve. 

This is just awareness. In due time I suggest to action this new found knowldege!!


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## Lolito (Jun 24, 2021)

My brain is almost burnt in already, almost, not yet 100%, but almost, OMG ME VIA MATA!!!!!!!!



This crap sounds so good. Who would have thought that you have to pay more, in order to have a worse sound. A 1996 sound. Amazing, but it makes all the sense. It's like designers clothing, the worse it looks the more expensive it costs. But then again, who would not pay to go back to 1996? Oh boy 

Who would want the detail when you can have the flow. the real sound, not the square grid bits of pieces of pppi ppii piii 01000011100001000000000001000


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## Lolito

AlanU said:


> In due time you can accumulate gear to your preference.
> 
> I took a serious leap of faith in purchasing my first audiograde/ethernet switch. I had full refund guarantee and I was ready to take advantage of such "audition" and return the "fake advertisement".............. Let's just say I immediately purchased a 2nd unit and Linear power supply. ABX blind fold (non verbal too)  test was 100% conclusive that it made a noticeable difference. I did not even know 1 person that owned such a "so called gimmick". People have fed "normal" ethernet switches with linear power supplies and did not get the same performance results.
> 
> ...


Certainly, the test first then buy option is always a safe bet. I just now wonder, why would I want a cleaner signal inside the ares, just wondering. I payed to have a more analog like signal, more vinyl like, I paid for that, and now I am supposed to want to pay more, to try to make that signal more clean, more pure, more precise? I really feel like USB implementation in DACS has a long way to go still.

I can get a Singxer F1 locally, from official reseller same price, can return it. Would not buy now of course, maybe september or christmas or when ever, and I can return it. Question is, will it really make a difference?

Will do first a decent USB2.0 hub with separate power, and maybe the poor man ddc already mentioned. Is there a thread already for that thing? Cheers.


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## Pharmaboy

AlanU said:


> This is just awareness.


Everything is!


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## Jay_vs

Lolito said:


> Certainly, the test first then buy option is always a safe bet. I just now wonder, why would I want a cleaner signal inside the ares, just wondering. I payed to have a more analog like signal, more vinyl like, I paid for that, and now I am supposed to want to pay more, to try to make that signal more clean, more pure, more precise? I really feel like USB implementation in DACS has a long way to go still.
> 
> I can get a Singxer F1 locally, from official reseller same price, can return it. Would not buy now of course, maybe september or christmas or when ever, and I can return it. Question is, will it really make a difference?
> 
> Will do first a decent USB2.0 hub with separate power, and maybe the poor man ddc already mentioned. Is there a thread already for that thing? Cheers.


Amir said "A well designed DAC whose performance is measured objectively, is of no need to external tweaks. If it comes with a USB input and I show it to have good performance, that is that. Don't chase ghosts with such external measures as Singxer SU-1.." 
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...surements-of-singxer-su-1-usb-to-s-pdif.7095/


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## Lolito

Jay_vs said:


> Amir said "A well designed DAC whose performance is measured objectively, is of no need to external tweaks. If it comes with a USB input and I show it to have good performance, that is that. Don't chase ghosts with such external measures as Singxer SU-1.."
> https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...surements-of-singxer-su-1-usb-to-s-pdif.7095/


That Amir is a big time son of a gun, and completely unable to dance the boogy boogy, don't believe everything he says. He should cut his ears and do an omelette with them. Objetivist ear omelette, for breakfast, LOL


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## AlanU

Jay_vs said:


> Amir said "A well designed DAC whose performance is measured objectively, is of no need to external tweaks. If it comes with a USB input and I show it to have good performance, that is that. Don't chase ghosts with such external measures as Singxer SU-1.."
> https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...surements-of-singxer-su-1-usb-to-s-pdif.7095/


What is "measured objectively"? So this would indicate that an electronic  measuring device can provide you information of being holographic, level of instrument isolation, layers, distance between vocalist from the front row, shimmer of highs, Prat, emotional engagement??????? I would love this cult leader to provide graphical representation of what I have stated. The answer is "impossible" . 

I've been involved in audio long enough to discredit a person that is overly scientific and believes graphs as fact. Our human ear is so much more complex. 

If this is the case, we should all buy a SMSL SU9 and proclaim it as the audio wonders in providing the "venue" in our "listening space" be it headphones, IEM's or 2 channel hifi system. 

So if an individual using an older laptop feeding jitter to a DAC. This will be fixed by a "well designed DAC".  Extremely simplistic comments to feed his jaded followers, instead of urging them to use their ears. I would hope such obvious suggestions of being a human and using personal ears is too far fetched for a person wanting followers. 

I will admit that graphs are a nice compliment to learn. However in audio a perfect score in a graph is not directly related to audio bliss.


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## Lolito

Amir golden year is well behind us now.


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## PopZeus

Sometimes it feels like head-fi (everywhere but Sound Science) is the only place somewhat free of ASR and the cult of Amir. And, honestly, some of the 2-channel YTers, who are more likely to moderate measurements with subjective impressions.


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## Pharmaboy

Lolito said:


> That Amir is a big time son of a gun, and completely unable to dance the boogy boogy, don't believe everything he says. He should cut his ears and do an omelette with them. Objetivist ear omelette, for breakfast, LOL



+1. Just another false god of audio.

Ears are the real test instrument.


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## sajunky

Then the usage of the 'objective' vs. 'subjective' is incorrect.
From our point of view objective is our hearing. If you stay hehind machine analyzer screen it is subjective, as it is how a machine can interprete it.


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## joseG86

Lolito said:


> That Amir is a big time son of a gun, and completely unable to dance the boogy boogy, don't believe everything he says. He should cut his ears and do an omelette with them. Objetivist ear omelette, for breakfast, LOL





Lolito said:


> Amir golden year is well behind us now.


This is gold, hahahahahahahahahahaha


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## joseG86

Pharmaboy said:


> +1. Just another false god of audio.
> 
> Ears are the real test instrument.


I have infinite respect for Amir, his brain probably functions different and it is more "machine-like" seeking perfection than human... Due to his work I guess. His background can shadow any of us to shame probably


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## sajunky (Jun 25, 2021)

joseG86 said:


> I have infinite respect for Amir, his brain probably functions different and it is more "machine-like" seeking perfection than human... Due to his work I guess. His background can shadow any of us to shame probably


His background is a shame. He was a head of a Microsoft Media Center department and everything Amir touched died.


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## joseG86

sajunky said:


> His background is a is a shame. He was a head of a Microsoft Media Center department and everything Amir touched died.


Yeah you said it, head of Microsft Media Center, HD-DVD etc.... No joke even if everything died haha I am a noone compared to him


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## TheRealDz (Jun 25, 2021)

Pharmaboy said:


> +1. Just another false god of audio.
> 
> Ears are the real test instrument.


This subjectivist/objectivist crap was solved in the 90s with the ascent of Stereophile and the Absolute Sound - when listeners realized that a "review" of components in Stereo Review was utterly worthless.  Ie, Stereo Review reviews were merely a series of measurements coupled with commentary on a product's features.

Measurements help product developers move prototypes closer to commercial form, when they can be fine tuned by ear for commercial release.  And once a product is in final form, measurements can help with the QA process.  But for us civilian purchasers, only our ears matter.

I think this is a bit of a generational thing - younger listeners weren't alive for this and by and large don't have the listening experience to have learned it. ASR = Stereo Review 2.0 for younger generations.

Now get off my lawn, dagnabbit.


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## Lolito

This dac is not resolving or detailed in my system, but it is so engaging, I have been listening to the same album on shuffle repeat for the whole morning, didn't even realise. With the topping i would have had to pause everytime I try to concentrate while working. Not with this one. Who would have thought.


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## Lolito (Jun 25, 2021)

TheRealDz said:


> This subjectivist/objectivist crap was solved in the 90s with the ascent of Stereophile and the Absolute Sound - when listeners realized that a "review" of components in Stereo Review was utterly worthless.  Ie, Stereo Review reviews were merely a series of measurements coupled with commentary on a product's features.
> 
> Measurements help product developers move prototypes closer to commercial form, when they can be fine tuned by ear for commercial release.  And once a product is in final form, measurements can help with the QA process.  But for us civilian purchasers, only our ears matter.
> 
> ...


Easy to say now, go there in their forum with all those dumb square heads and tell them, LOL. I was banned there with 3 different accounts, here they only make me temporal ban, or moderated comments, LOL. Over there I had no other chance than to insult the robots.

UPDATE: now, if you think those guys are crazy, go to Audiophile Style, there you have the worst of both worlds, the amir fans with the subjectivist 3000€ power cable fans. In that one after 2 minutes reading formulas, I decided to better not even register there. Podcast is fine though.

UPDATE2: speaker measurements not so bad.










Memes authorship: joseG86


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## joseG86

Lolito said:


> Memes authorship: joseG86


Liar haha


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## Pharmaboy

TheRealDz said:


> This subjectivist/objectivist crap was solved in the 90s with the ascent of Stereophile and the Absolute Sound - when listeners realized that a "review" of components in Stereo Review was utterly worthless.  Ie, Stereo Review reviews were merely a series of measurements coupled with commentary on a product's features.
> 
> Measurements help product developers move prototypes closer to commercial form, when they can be fine tuned by ear for commercial release.  And once a product is in final form, measurements can help with the QA process.  But for us civilian purchasers, only our ears matter.
> 
> ...


True, as far as it goes. But people still come flying out, intent on objectifying and measuring audio--then claiming their measurements are more revealing & yield more insight than listening by uneducated, non-scientific, amateur audio/music lovers (ie, people like me).

I probably attract these ideologues with my posts describing the subjective experience of this or that audio gear--and my love of music (the only reason I have audio being to listen to music). Probably like waving a red cape at a bull...

This impulse for people to proclaim that "science" (translation: anyone w/measuring gear & some electrical knowledge) has completely figured out every nook & cranny of audio--it never dies, and it never makes much sense.


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## PopZeus

I'm getting a kick out of seeing cheapaudioman and Darko go big for the Ares II. My first R-2R DAC was a big deal to me in this hobby.

Anyways, the F1 arrived today. I've only just started getting a signal through it. Yeah, I hope this treble tames down a bit with burn-in. it's pretty bracing to me right now haha. Otherwise, the improvement is pretty fantastic. The timbre is subtly more lifelike.


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## Lolito

PopZeus said:


> I'm getting a kick out of seeing cheapaudioman and Darko go big for the Ares II. My first R-2R DAC was a big deal to me in this hobby.
> 
> Anyways, the F1 arrived today. I've only just started getting a signal through it. Yeah, I hope this treble tames down a bit with burn-in. it's pretty bracing to me right now haha. Otherwise, the improvement is pretty fantastic. The timbre is subtly more lifelike.


Could you please elaborate on the differences of with and without that f1 thing, if any, for all of us who want to spend even more money, if it improves the whole thing. Thanks!!!!

f1 made more treble or you already had it?


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## TheRealDz (Jun 26, 2021)

I don't hear any sharpness, even though the retailer I bought it from (Kitsune) said to be prepared for some harshness for the first 200-500 hours.

What I hear is more "soft detail" - ie, a more relaxed, soft sound, but with simultaneously greater resolution. Ie, I can hear more musical detail, more distinct sounds, more space around instruments, and a more holographic soundstage (as @AlanU predicted).

My injector cables came in.  They decouple the data feed from the power, and then allow me to run a separate power supply.  I am still waiting for my Breeze linear psu, but I believe even a temporary phone charger sounds better than the power coming from my Surface pc.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/TeraDak-US...-/132998927498?_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286


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## TheRealDz

Shout out to @sajunky and @]eep;   my TDA1387 DAC came in. Not to detract from this thread, but it has the ladder DAC goodness that we all love. 

I will start a separate thread about it, but for $42 it is a no-brainer for R2R DAC lovers or anyone wanting to see what all of the R2R buzz is about.


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## Lolito

TheRealDz said:


> I don't hear any sharpness, even though the retailer I bought it from (Kitsune) said to be prepared for some harshness for the first 200-500 hours.
> 
> What I hear is more "soft detail" - ie, a more relaxed, soft sound, but with simultaneously greater resolution. Ie, I can hear more musical detail, more distinct sounds, more space around instruments, and a more holographic soundstage (as @AlanU predicted).
> 
> My injector cables came in.  They decouple the data feed from the power, and then allow me to run a separate power supply.  I am still waiting for my Breeze linear psu, but I believe even a temporary phone charger sounds better than the power coming from my Surface pc.


seller knows very well, brains needs to adapt a bit. Brain is wanting to get very surprised but then reality never meets expectations and people want to return stuff. With burn in logic there is a more thoughtful process of testing.

not sure that cable splitter will work well, sometimes they are annoying... but the whole thing when finished, let us know the result. I am very interested on something like that the ares2 gives problem with mac, i gotta reboot often... I will plug it back to my usb 3.0 hub if that doesnt give rebooting problems. right now, if i unplug then plug the ares, or change ares source... mac gets stuck... this happened to other people before, right?


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## Lolito

TheRealDz said:


> Shout out to @sajunky and @]eep;   my TDA1387 DAC came in. Not to detract from this thread, but it has the ladder DAC goodness that we all love.
> 
> I will start a separate thread about it, but for $42 it is a no-brainer for R2R DAC lovers or anyone wanting to see what all of the R2R buzz is about.


That is really interesting, would be great to have a cheap r2r alternative, for friends or secondary setups, where is that new thread? does it sounds good?

https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/dac-...-dac-raspberry-pi-3-a-b-pi-2-i2s-p-11585.html


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## TheRealDz

Lolito said:


> That is really interesting, would be great to have a cheap r2r alternative, for friends or secondary setups, where is that new thread? does it sounds good?
> 
> https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/dac-...-dac-raspberry-pi-3-a-b-pi-2-i2s-p-11585.html


This is what I got: 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/HIFI-USB-8...-/132227457145?_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286

I am not sure what a "machine burning sound card" is though. 😜

I only have about an hour on it. It sounds great so far - definitely the stereotypical R2R sound. 

It will be a perfect chance to test @AlanU's theory:  once my psu comes in, it has 2 USB outs, so I can connect my F-1 into the 1387 and see if reducing jitter improves its sound.


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## PopZeus (Jun 26, 2021)

Lolito said:


> Could you please elaborate on the differences of with and without that f1 thing, if any, for all of us who want to spend even more money, if it improves the whole thing. Thanks!!!!
> 
> f1 made more treble or you already had it?



My initial impressions are bound to change as the unit breaks in. Immediately, there is a better sense of detail and staging. On "More to Life Than This" from Bjork, the ambient tone of the track's recording space is more clearly defined. I'm fairly sensitive to the upper-mid/lower treble region so I'm noticing that region has more presence right now. That also might hold true for the upper treble "air" region, but that doesn't seem quite as boosted (or maybe i'm esp sensitive to lower treble). Anyways, I can't imagine this is all because of some tuning changes occurring during conversion. Timing or any correction during conversion in the time domain might also be contributing to the overall improvement. Bass also seems more controlled and slightly more textured.

Bottom line: short of any initial break-in changes, this convenient device is superior to onboard USB audio directly from my Mac into the Ares 2, though it's hard for me to say if it's any better than a native coax output from a dedicated digital audio transport.


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## Lolito

PopZeus said:


> My initial impressions are bound to change as the unit breaks in. Immediately, there is a better sense of detail and staging. On "More to Life Than This" from Bjork, the ambient tone of the track's recording space is more clearly defined. I'm fairly sensitive to the upper-mid/lower treble region so I'm noticing that region has more presence right now. That also might hold true for the upper treble "air" region, but that doesn't seem quite as boosted (or maybe i'm esp sensitive to lower treble). Anyways, I can't imagine this is all because of some tuning changes occurring during conversion. Timing or any correction during conversion in the time domain might also be contributing to the overall improvement. Bass also seems more controlled and slightly more textured.
> 
> Bottom line: short of any initial break-in changes, this convenient device is superior to onboard USB audio directly from my Mac into the Ares 2, though it's hard for me to say if it's any better than a native coax output from a dedicated digital audio transport.


Thanks a lot for the input. My ares is giving me Mac problems... you had same issues right? you told me already a usb 2.0 hub solved the issue, right? I´m thinking about a Douk Audio ddc unit, has psu input and several outputs... expensive though with a good clock though.


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## Pharmaboy

PopZeus said:


> "More to Life Than This" from Bjork


 YES!!


----------



## ]eep

guys, I've been reay busy the last few weeks (100 ft wall of bamboo bookshelves), but I really enjoy your posts. It makes me feel right at home. 

If I translate the discussion to what I've been doing, there are more than one way to approach a construction. Thinking that we made a new construction in a very old building, 16th century storehouse on the dock of an Amsterdam canal. The floors are big (2' by 4', in feet, not inches) mother-beams with smaller child-beams (1 tree pp). None of it is calculated but it is made with empirical experience. Then there are 18th century (1855) cast-iron out-branched pillars to support as an upgrade in gracious organic form. Also  not calculated but following the form of nature. On the other side of the canal you can see the zoo 'Artis' (in natura, artis magistra; nature is the master of art). All of this is very old and still works. And we  combine it with a very sleek, modern material to form one strong unity. 

The new function is living. Who cares if it measures well. It has great presence, it's modern and comfortable. Ever seen calculations of constructions at a realter? Only sizes and materials at best. User experience is much more important but also hard to capture into words.


----------



## Lolito

After 5 days with this thing, at the beginning I was a bit defrauded, I felt as if detail was all gone, like all was mp3 sounding. I was wrong, it was the topping which was edged... I noticed that leaving the ARES in NOS, then doing 2x upsampling in Audirvana, felt like a natural level of detail was there, and also sounded better with the upsampling in Audirvana than in the device itself. Fast filter. Now, I noticed the Ares was way way more easy listening than the Topping... With Ares, felt like listening to vinyl, hours without pierced ears, bass felt so much more present, elevated in level too, warm, also feels like you want to always bump up the volumen, before it was the opposite...

Thing is, I started thinking, can I just set up the topping to sound like an Ares??? Like the other way around of what I did first, and funnily enough, with a bit of lowering all levels except the bass, music looses like 10% resolution, then non oversampling, and leaving that lower bass and sub bass tilted up, up to 0db... With the singxer sa1 I can easily do A/B testing very fast (RCA-XLR), playing audirvana to one dac, audirvana studio to the other dac. Let me tell you something, Topping now not so bad, and 4 times cheaper...




Will test more and bring further details.


----------



## Lolito

]eep said:


> guys, I've been reay busy the last few weeks (100 ft wall of bamboo bookshelves), but I really enjoy your posts. It makes me feel right at home.
> 
> If I translate the discussion to what I've been doing, there are more than one way to approach a construction. Thinking that we made a new construction in a very old building, 16th century storehouse on the dock of an Amsterdam canal. The floors are big (2' by 4', in feet, not inches) mother-beams with smaller child-beams (1 tree pp). None of it is calculated but it is made with empirical experience. Then there are 18th century (1855) cast-iron out-branched pillars to support as an upgrade in gracious organic form. Also  not calculated but following the form of nature. On the other side of the canal you can see the zoo 'Artis' (in natura, artis magistra; nature is the master of art). All of this is very old and still works. And we  combine it with a very sleek, modern material to form one strong unity.
> 
> The new function is living. Who cares if it measures well. It has great presence, it's modern and comfortable. Ever seen calculations of constructions at a realter? Only sizes and materials at best. User experience is much more important but also hard to capture into words.


Yes, everything works very nicely in Amsterdam with so much cash they have, from long long ago. Very smart people for business and trading and dealing. Very smart, from long long ago. I see a calculation there if they tried to mimic nature. Primitive, but measured non the less.

Anyhow, back from metaphysics, I see there you have very nice old school dacs, no? how would you compare those to Ares2? have you ever tried a DDC in one fo those older DACS? was it fun? bedankt!!!


----------



## Lolito

Pharmaboy said:


> YES!!


that's the one she goes inside a toilet or a car, continues singing, then goes out again, continues singing, right?... Legendary


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## Pharmaboy (Jun 26, 2021)

Lolito said:


> that's the one she goes inside a toilet or a car, continues singing, then goes out again, continues singing, right?... Legendary


The tune, "There's More to Life Than This" was recorded in the toilets of the Milk Bar in London. Obviously the chorus and a bunch of the parts were added or changed in the studio (this tune is very well recorded, toilets or no toilets).

My college roommate lived for years in Piermont, NY, an old colonial town perched on the hillside of Rockland County, overlooking the Hudson River a couple miles downstream of the Tappan Zee Bridge. He and his wife were in the sauna at their health club and slowly realized it was Bjork sitting on the opposite bench. They all said "hi," and that was it (they weren't Bjork fans & had no idea what her singing was like). I went nuts when they told me about it...had to fill them in about this genius singer they met so casually.


----------



## PopZeus

Lolito said:


> Thanks a lot for the input. My ares is giving me Mac problems... you had same issues right? you told me already a usb 2.0 hub solved the issue, right? I´m thinking about a Douk Audio ddc unit, has psu input and several outputs... expensive though with a good clock though.


Well, I have a USB 3.0  hub and I'm not sure that was what fixed things but I kinda just left the Ares on all the time to not test any hypotheses. All I can say is with this new setup, I can put the Ares in and out of standby without any problems. The Mac is seeing the DDC instead. The sonic improvements are a bonus, as I was fairly happy with my sound before the F1.


----------



## PopZeus

Pharmaboy said:


> YES!!


One of my favorite artists and test tracks.


----------



## AlanU

sajunky said:


> Pulse transformer is a key performance item. The other is a low jitter clock and PCB layout. Unfortunately Douk is a two sides design, without a common ground plane layer. In other words you can't expect a comparable performance with top products on the market.
> 
> As for audiophile-grade Ethernet switches, they are not reclocking audio signal, their clock is not for audio, but assembly packet frames, completely different. Similar to the USB reclockers, all marketing rubbish. These products work, as they redirect ground loops, have better power supply, thats all. An approach should be similar as with USB hubs. A dedicated switch for the DAC (no other devices connected) and a quality power supply.
> 
> With network devices there is a dilema. A cable always carries a leak and WiFi inside a device is a source of HF noise. What to do? Very simple. Disable internal WiFi and use a WiFi extender like this on the short Ethernet cable (working in wireless adapter mode). It is nice if it plugs directly to the wall socket.


Jumping back to the discussion of audiophile-grade Ethernet switches.

I will share my views on this topic, since we are all about sonics and "jitter" talk.

I have been using two Silent Angel N8 units. One switch feeds the 2nd unit in a cascade/daisy chain fashion. I do not use the "medical grade" wall warts. I purchased the Silent Angel - Forester F1 linear power supply. 

This is where things get questionable to people that have not purchased such a product. SA recommends to maximize performance by using two N8 models with LPS. Now they have a new "all in one" N16 which I am considering. 

Well the 3 units I have put together have 2 variables for a "tweaker". Using different power cords is incredibly a change in presentation. 2 channel world this is extremely noticeable.

I am currently now going crazy again. I am testing out the BASTEI Silent Angel upgrade DC cable (must purchase 2 cables to feed two switches from LPS). The "orange" coloured cable is both power and ground uses red copper.  I had made the assumption that it will possibly change things. Focus of the music transformed immediately with these virgin cables. The stage grew in height and depth. The ears detect the layer changes from the vocalist and the supporting band members closer or further from your "seating position". I am a bit premature to discuss this as I just installed the Bastei directional cable last night. Next on my experiment is to get the silver "white" coloured dc cables. 

This coming week my 3rd Mutec and Ferrum Hypsos (variable linear power supply 5-30 volts) will be coming in.  The Ferrum Hypsos will  feed clean DC to my Silent Angel rhein Z1 music server.

Han's take in his review on this linear power supply.



I've been the sort of person to painfully experiment in this fun journey. I'm now all about serious emphasis on source and clean power. 

I've had people questioning my logic on Audio grade ethernet switches. I'll have to say.... if anyone has taken notes on my observation on how re-clocking DDC changes the world of sonics. This is where I've put just as serious investigation on the controversial topic of "rubbish" fake news audio grade switches. The transparency of my system makes a crazy clear and distinct improvement. Swapping the power cord and even the DC cable was a "what the heck??? how's this possible" impression to me and of course my daughter's ears (pianist)  in ABX blind folded(non verbal) tests. 

My word of advise is to believe in your ears. If you must, support your findings with blind ABX comparison tests with zero verbal communication. I'll say this is a very difficult test for your ears "IF" there is a question of minimal to no change. The recent DC cable swap was closer to What in focus and transformation of the stage. Holographic imaging changed to be even more distinct with blacker space surrounding the instrument. This was an increase in realistic holographic placement and not like a cookie cutter  in your face,  solid state "wall of sound" often heard in cheap and cheerful solid state DACS. 

I appreciate my current setup as it adds tweak to the setup. More so than the Uptone EtherRegen product with no capabilities of more variables to tweak. 

I just brought this topic up again on ethernet switch talk as it's certainly not even close to "fake news/rubbish". It's repeatable in catching changes in ABX blind fold tests, this is another analog flow change to the music.


----------



## Lolito (Jun 27, 2021)

AlanU said:


> my daughter's ears (pianist)



That is very good Alan. What music do you play or normally play at home? same kind of type, or some own eclectic types, or... Just wondering, I would like to know which music you play in that level of system that you own, and which you do not play there. and then maybe we can recommend each other a couple tracks and share opinion of systems.

I feel like some music is accesible in a very good quality, chesky stuff, some classical well recorded in situ, with no tweaking, just very high res with two very very good mics with a perfect recording setup... Tehn other more popular music, harder to find decent sounding stuff. No real audiophile quality. No?

How do you like the new audirvana?? I prefer the old one, maybe I gotta get used to the new one. Playlists for me are important, and local files, streaming not so much. There are great things in the new version, but... some bad ones too.


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## AlanU (Jun 27, 2021)

Lolito said:


> That is very good Alan. What music do you play or normally play at home? same kind of type, or some own eclectic types, or... Just wondering, I would like to know which music you play in that level of system that you own, and which you do not play there. and then maybe we can recommend each other a couple tracks and share opinion of systems.
> 
> I feel like some music is accesible in a very good quality, chesky stuff, some classical well recorded in situ, with no tweaking, just very high res with two very very good mics with a perfect recording setup... Tehn other more popular music, harder to find decent sounding stuff. No real audiophile quality. No?
> 
> How do you like the new audirvana?? I prefer the old one, maybe I gotta get used to the new one. Playlists for me are important, and local files, streaming not so much. There are great things in the new version, but... some bad ones too.


I must emphasize that I am just creating awareness of upgrade paths. These are not needed this second but in due time will open up the higher sonic joys.

I'm really into all kinds of music. late 80's R& B for nostalgic reasons, Piano, Trio, acoustic jazz vocals, chillout, meditation..........

From John Abercrombie, Bobo Stenson Trio, Any Sheppard Quartet, Diana Krall, Eva Cassidy, Melody Gardot,  Chris Botti, Boz Scaggs, Fourplay, Manu Katche........

I will have to suggest to consider ROON. Pay for the year subscription or a month. The Roon Radio is one of the most incredible similar "genre finder" I've ever experienced. Spotify HIFI will be out soon and that will be a killer playlist creator.

So the evil cost for me is paying for roon since there is no longer lifetime license. But the Tidal family hifi/Roon combo is absolutely amazing for a non stop incredible playlist. SQ wise I will bite my tongue as my Audirvana 3.5 (lifetime license) is quite a bit better in SQ vs Roon. Audirvana Studio is another bump up in enjoyable improvements in SQ without snooty ultra high fidelity sound. To my ears it's like "real" music with such an organic feel and emotion.

The PROBLEM I have with Audirvana studio is that its NOT like roon in the creation of an "audirvana radio" which sadly does NOT exist. If Audirvana Studio has such a feature, I would very likely drop ROON. After using Roon Radio I would imagine many here on Headfi would freak in pleasure. Also it unbelievable how you can find new similar artists. Spotify is also great BUT roon's radio allows you to pick a specific artist than play the "roon radio". Suddenly you have non stop play of extremely similar genre.

If you are into playlists...... Roon is the absolute king. However you must maintain both roon and tidal cost.

This DDC stuff is cool. This is where in my personal experience has been about making the best with audio equipment. Now I'm seeking the digital source end. The  audiograde ethernet switch stuff gets a tonne of laughs from people that have not genuinely auditioned. As I mentioned before.....I had the opportunity to get full money back if I was not satisfied. I ended up buying another ethernet switch and LPS. I will say that if it was just a mockery to audiofiles with no effect,  I would not have spent this kind of money. I suppose mileage may vary.


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## Lolito (Jun 27, 2021)

I don't mind to pay for stuff, I would like to pay for stuff, but just a little bit. I also do not rent software, I pay for a version+upgrades for a while, 10-15€, or 50€ for a good app, otherwise I crack it, I am not rich. I rather pay the artist in bandcamp and get higher res possible, or free in soulseek downloads, but I do not pay to mafia like spotify. I pay bandcamp or don't pay anyone.

If roon does not have SQ, I will not use it even for free. Audirvana 3.5 sounds better than itunes. Although we will have to reconsider what is better. Ares2 to me is like a downsampled DAC really, lowered resolution dac, with lowered treble and then you can listen to it for hours, LOL, well, it has been tuned for background music, no surprise there, at all. But that is another topic for another day...

I like audirvana 3.5, audirvana studio... too little fonts, playlists disappeared. I do not use streaming, **** that, I have my collection, with the bitrate I want, I don't trust those people form the san francisco bay area, that is 100% mafia.

Still, I want to research and learn how a good system works, without the fake hypes. I think ares2 is a downsampled dac. With real instruments and real music, the audiophile stuff you guys hear, all those guitars and strings and natural sounds, then the ares2 linger will be a real blessing, but for modern stuff. I have a feeling the delta sigma dac could be tuned to sound like an ares, but the ares to give the detail of the delta sigma, I don't think so... Maybe a ddc is all we need as Alan says. Douk Audio device should be commented, the poor man ddc.


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## Lolito

for acoustic guitars, spanish guitar, sounds great I have to say. Sounds lifelike.


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## AlanU

Lolito said:


> I don't mind to pay for stuff, I would like to pay for stuff, but just a little bit. I also do not rent software, I pay for a version+upgrades for a while, 10-15€, or 50€ for a good app, otherwise I crack it, I am not rich. I rather pay the artist in bandcamp and get higher res possible, or free in soulseek downloads, but I do not pay to mafia like spotify. I pay bandcamp or don't pay anyone.
> 
> If roon does not have SQ, I will not use it even for free. Audirvana 3.5 sounds better than itunes. Although we will have to reconsider what is better. Ares2 to me is like a downsampled DAC really, lowered resolution dac, with lowered treble and then you can listen to it for hours, LOL, well, it has been tuned for background music, no surprise there, at all. But that is another topic for another day...
> 
> ...


Roon SQ is still quite good. It's just that Audirvana is better. 

If a person listened to that low 16bit/44.1 on my system they would scratch their heads. I know my limitation is 24/192 with my coax feed. I do not upsample and use whatever native feed I get from Tidal. I do not ever yearn for more. I no longer even upsample with audirvana. 

It's wishful thinking to have 1 dac that will suite all criteria in SQ needs in all genre's. So far for Melody Gardot, Eva Cassidy etc. 

Youn Sun Nah  - Shanandoah or Voyage. Her voice,  using my 1940's modified Western Electric rectifier tube on my super rectifier power supply and Tube dac is creepy in how it will create chills down my spine in realism. Her voice is so organic and analog that it's literally a physical presence in my living room. An Aqua La scala - 10 grand dac would be a 7/10 vs my tube dacs 10/10. Goes to show that there is always strengths and weakness in any dac you buy....even if it's in the 30 grand range. 

What we tend to do is "settle" and enjoy what we own. 

I'm still trying to understand how you are getting a "downsampled" sound with Ares ii. 
Feeding digitally stored FLAC is just as prone to jitter than streamed media.


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## Lolito

AlanU said:


> Roon SQ is still quite good. It's just that Audirvana is better.
> 
> If a person listened to that low 16bit/44.1 on my system they would scratch their heads. I know my limitation is 24/192 with my coax feed. I do not upsample and use whatever native feed I get from Tidal. I do not ever yearn for more. I no longer even upsample with audirvana.
> 
> ...


Let me tell you something, what I have in my hard drive, as long as I make backups, I know what is there. Now, what the mafia is going to send you by the internet depending of whatever they feel like at that particular moment, depending on internet traffic of cost saving or what not... No thanks. I also do not want any legal crime company to know whatever I hear or not. 

24/192 is plenty. I do not want to use ARES OS model, I rather use NOS and just upsample x2 red book files. It gives them back the air and it sounds better than the OS done internally on the dac. Everybody who use the ARES says they prefer OS (internal or NOS+external OS), just watch darko review, or any youtube reviewer review. But, it is just exactly what you say: depends with what tracks, acoustic guitars, sounds lifelike, infinite resolution. Other stuff, just meh. I now wonder how a decent delta sigma dac can perform compared to my current cheap topping e30+linear psu... Like a singxer dac, or an RME, or an a70... just wondering...

Ares giving problems with the mac. Alvin told me to upgrade the firmware, so gotta do that. I wonder if a Douk Audio DDC would improve my system, and which one of the three options would be better. there are 3 clocks options...

everybody gets less detailw ith an ares, it is a less detailed dac. that detail is hidden in layers, more depth, more 3d, more holographic, more analog, more real, sure, but less detailed, less resolving. Just like everyone say in their review. Less squeaky clean, less polished flat glass.


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## TheRealDz

Lolito said:


> Let me tell you something, what I have in my hard drive, as long as I make backups, I know what is there. Now, what the mafia is going to send you by the internet depending of whatever they feel like at that particular moment, depending on internet traffic of cost saving or what not... No thanks. I also do not want any legal crime company to know whatever I hear or not.
> 
> 24/192 is plenty. I do not want to use ARES OS model, I rather use NOS and just upsample x2 red book files. It gives them back the air and it sounds better than the OS done internally on the dac. Everybody who use the ARES says they prefer OS (internal or NOS+external OS), just watch darko review, or any youtube reviewer review. But, it is just exactly what you say: depends with what tracks, acoustic guitars, sounds lifelike, infinite resolution. Other stuff, just meh. I now wonder how a decent delta sigma dac can perform compared to my current cheap topping e30+linear psu... Like a singxer dac, or an RME, or an a70... just wondering...
> 
> ...


I am not sure what you mean by less detail in the Ares.  It is in fact soft sounding, but that's what's amazing - it can do that while extracting a lot of detail. 

For perspective, my Ares replaced a detail monster - a Chord Hugo - in my system, and I hear way more musical detail with the Ares. Let alone it isn't hard on my ears... 🙄


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## Lolito

Yeah man, but I do not work on Denafrips you know. Some people buy something and because they bought it has to be the best ever in the world. Let me tell you something, this dac has less detail than the typical equivalent delta sigma dac of less than 200$ that measures very well in ASR. And it is not the end of the world, it sounds great, uber-hyper-musical. But it lacks detail compared to those. It will be ok, do not worry mate. Also, if you do your research you will find out that this DAC is always in OS mode, it is an OS dac, and even when you put it in NOS mode, it is doing some OS in the DSP anyways. Denafrips do not really reveal what they do inside, they want to keep the receipt for them. But let me tell you somethign very obvious: this DAC has less detail than that other dac, for sure.


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## Lolito

anybody here has updated the firmware to 3.4.1? I want to do it to avoid the mac issues, but I just have windows machine in parallels, that should work I guess


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## daytrader (Jun 28, 2021)

Blah, blah, blah,…“it’s the best ever, transformed my system, a bargain at twice the price!”  I’ll save you the time of watching the video if you don’t want t.  It’s all true.👍👍👍.


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## Lolito

daytrader said:


> Blah, blah, blah,…“it’s the best ever, transformed my system, a bargain at twice the price!”  I’ll save you the time of watching the video if you don’t want t.  It’s all true.👍👍👍.



He is so funny bill murray. not very knowledgable though.


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## daytrader

Lolito said:


> He is so funny bill murray. not very knowledgable though.


He is.  Not sure if it’s part of his YouTube persona or he actually has no real technical insight?  Either way he is for sure entertaining, a nice contrast to all the medieval scientists with their charts and Sine wave scopes speaking in languages most don’t understand. LOL


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## Lolito (Jun 29, 2021)

I don't know, I think he is just another one full of BS, but like bill murray. After a few videos, is not that funny, it's repetitive. It's like a guy who started purchasing speakers 6 months ago only but already started a youtube channel commenting speakers with a long long experience of 6 months, something like that, with a test tracks from 1995 to 2002, that's all the music he uses for testing. From back when the MTV was something, LOL. Cheap non the less indeed.


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## PopZeus

I dunno, there are lots of different types of audiophiles and potential audiophiles out there with lots of different musical tastes, and maybe being inclusive is a better approach. I'm more interested in growing out the hobby. Honestly, part of why I like cheapaudioman is because I listen to some of the same bands he does. I like having him out there as a reviewer despite the rough edges. Fwiw, even he would admit he struggles to articulate his thoughts sometimes.


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## daytrader (Jun 29, 2021)

PopZeus said:


> I dunno, there are lots of different types of audiophiles and potential audiophiles out there with lots of different musical tastes, and maybe being inclusive is a better approach. I'm more interested in growing out the hobby. Honestly, part of why I like cheapaudioman is because I listen to some of the same bands he does. I like having him out there as a reviewer despite the rough edges. Fwiw, even he would admit he struggles to articulate his thoughts sometimes.


Well maybe it’s more than just coffee in that cup?


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## daytrader (Jun 30, 2021)

Lolito said:


> I don't know, I think he is just another one full of BS, but like bill murray. After a few videos, is not that funny, it's repetitive. It's like a guy who started purchasing speakers 6 months ago only but already started a youtube channel commenting speakers with a long long experience of 6 months, something like that, with a test tracks from 1995 to 2002, that's all the music he uses for testing. From back when the MTV was something, LOL. Cheap non the less indeed.


It’s just that I enjoy the cavalier approach and of late he seems to have gotten more comfortable doing it too.


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## Lolito

he is funny though, and honest and you get the point i guess. I just think lot of these reviewers, they do not go very in depth in usability or things not good. Others are more detailed... but yeah, gotta see 10-20 reviews just to get half a picture of X device sound.

100% bill murray


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## Lolito

PopZeus said:


> I dunno, there are lots of different types of audiophiles and potential audiophiles out there with lots of different musical tastes, and maybe being inclusive is a better approach. I'm more interested in growing out the hobby. Honestly, part of why I like cheapaudioman is because I listen to some of the same bands he does. I like having him out there as a reviewer despite the rough edges. Fwiw, even he would admit he struggles to articulate his thoughts sometimes.


I hear those bands too, all of them, i have them in my collection. it's just to make fun of him in a nice way. he is a nicest guy, would be a proper best neighbour, right?

Test speakers with marylin manson, nirvana, limp bizkit and then... jamirokai...


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## Jay_vs (Jun 30, 2021)

Is this good? Matrix Audio Element H
https://www.matrix-digi.com/en/products/333.html


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## Lolito

Jay_vs said:


> Is this good? Matrix Audio Element H
> https://www.matrix-digi.com/en/products/333.html


Looks great, like a proper usb 3.0 port. So instead of usb cleaner, it seems to try to provide a cleanest usb already, not from dirty to clean, but an already clean usb signal from the beginning. I haven't used it though, i can't say if it works or not.


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## Jay_vs

Exactly yeah. So the Ares II would receive a nice clean, noise free signal to it's USB input. Surely must be better than a typical USB output from a PC, down a USB cable into a DDC and converted to coax. 
I guess, I dunno I'm a bit thick.


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## Lolito (Jul 2, 2021)

unless hat card is just snake oil, on the one hand, on the other hand maybe the ares ill sound the same really with a cleaner usb signal, I really don't know.


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## Uncle00Jesse

My amp isn’t balanced. Is the SE performance really that bad compared to xlr?


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## TheRealDz

Uncle00Jesse said:


> My amp isn’t balanced. Is the SE performance really that bad compared to xlr?


I don't hear any loss in fidelity, but then again I don't have identical cables to make a proper comparison.

It is a few dB quieter though.


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## AlanU

Uncle00Jesse said:


> My amp isn’t balanced. Is the SE performance really that bad compared to xlr?


If you are close proximity, Single ended RCA is absolutely fine. 

SQ wise I find that I can get equal SQ between XLR and RCA. We can be fooled in the higher dB signal delivery of the XLR setup. Also note that balanced true ccts is more more expensive to build so many manufacturers will have XLR interface while using a single ended configuration. Tall tail is no audible volume differences if you swap between RCA and XLR cables.

I'll have to say one of the best SQ I've extracted from my 2 channel was using a single ended cable made by Tchernov. Their Reference interconnect was magical but it surpasses the cost of an Ares ii :O

The most critical thing to worry about is the quality of the cable. It's not a matter of being balanced or single ended. Next time compare a friends. When you compare the two . When using SE cables, increase the volume to match the xlr.  You will observe that there is very likely identical dynamics. XLR may possibly have "more potential" in more energy due to the strength of the signal from the get go vs the weaker signal from single ended.


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## Lolito

My Ares is 2 weeks old... Now I do not use te topping for music ever. It is a great sounding dac, easy listening as if it was 1985 with a proper sansui super feed forward system, music for hours and hours. Digital limitations are now over with this.


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## sajunky

AlanU said:


> When using SE cables, increase the volume to match the xlr. You will observe that there is very likely identical dynamics. XLR may possibly have "more potential" in more energy due to the strength of the signal from the get go vs the weaker signal from single ended.


+1. Just I need to add that unless volume control is made with stepped attenuator there will be a small difference in input filtering with an ordinary pot. Typically there is observed increased colouration while increasing a volume, it may affect your comparison.


----------



## ]eep

Lolito said:


> Yeah man, but I do not work on Denafrips you know. Some people buy something and because they bought it has to be the best ever in the world. Let me tell you something, this dac has less detail than the typical equivalent delta sigma dac of less than 200$ that measures very well in ASR. And it is not the end of the world, it sounds great, uber-hyper-musical. But it lacks detail compared to those. It will be ok, do not worry mate. Also, if you do your research you will find out that this DAC is always in OS mode, it is an OS dac, and even when you put it in NOS mode, it is doing some OS in the DSP anyways. Denafrips do not really reveal what they do inside, they want to keep the receipt for them. But let me tell you somethign very obvious: this DAC has less detail than that other dac, for sure.


I'll answer here lest I forget. I didn't have time to read up last week. 

I have said this many times before: the Ares or any other R2R dac I personally heard or have does NOT dig out less detail. The NOS doesn't create that artificial sparkle on top that sigma delta does that looks like detail but in fact hides the real information on tone, transients and placement. So even when it seems softer on top you can look further into the recording as if you were there. 
So I'm wondering just how to interpret your narrative on your observations. I'm not denying it, just wondering where the discrepancy lies. Is it just different vocabulary or is there a real difference. 

On the alleged 'it's not real NOS' by Goldensound... the jury is still out on that. For my own part, I'm not fully convinced even when there is surely evidence pointing in the direction. The output of the Ares on the other hand fully points to NOS R2R as for sound quality. Maybe it's a different path, same destination yet I doubt it. It would mean I would have to review my theory on the absence of preringing as the main reason for the natural sound of NOS R2R. 

As for your last words 'for sure', that would mean; no doubt, without exception, that leaves no room for rebuke, interpretation or change of heart. I don't think you should speak in those terms. Life is not a rap song.


----------



## ]eep

On XLR or RCA connection. I have them working on the Ares simultaneously. XLR to the SP400 HP/preamp with relais volume to passive switch relais (2 XLR 8 strand braided silver plated 6N OFC) , the RCA direct via Cardas to switch relais box. I can switch at the push of a button... I hear no difference. I want to, I try to... Nothing. I could say all the advantage is taken away by the extra component in between but that would mean there is a difference caused by the cable that is is the reverse opposite of the preamp. Not plausible. 

Also with this setup there is no problem using both outputs of the Ares at the same time. Relais stops one or the other.


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## Lolito

]eep said:


> I'll answer here lest I forget. I didn't have time to read up last week.
> 
> I have said this many times before: the Ares or any other R2R dac I personally heard or have does NOT dig out less detail. The NOS doesn't create that artificial sparkle on top that sigma delta does that looks like detail but in fact hides the real information on tone, transients and placement. So even when it seems softer on top you can look further into the recording as if you were there.
> So I'm wondering just how to interpret your narrative on your observations. I'm not denying it, just wondering where the discrepancy lies. Is it just different vocabulary or is there a real difference.
> ...


Mmmmm... I understand what you mean, but no, it has less detail. Yes, it is not flat, so yea you have to hear it, when instrument has been spatially moved in an audio presentation sense, some have been moved back, you gotta listen for those to hear that detail. Maybe now there is a spatial audio detail that before was completely missing, so there is now some extra detail, that before was not there. All in all, I prefer the ARES. But let's not try to foul ourselves, there is a world out there trying to foul you... This DAC has less detail than a good measuring one, in terms of resolution, resolving. In those other dacs, you do hear differences between mp3, and then red book and then higher stuff...

With the ares... It really doesnt matter, but between red book and higher res... It's like the Ares is doing something completely different, not concerned about that. BUT, it is less resolving and gives less detail, you can look at that upside down, sideways, under water, half body submerged. You can maybe get a cowboy boots, fill it up with jelly, then you can get naked, step your feet in those boots, and hear the DAC. Even in such situation, the ARES gives less detail, hehe. Yes, the other has edging, the other one has that fake detail, the other one tricks you with the sound presentation, seeming to give more detail of what is actually giving, yes, sure, but even without the fake detail, it does give more resolution. In my case I have a pro studio speakers, with pro studio sub, so I want a dac like this and a class A pre amp, then I can oversample audio 2x at reproduction... Overall, so much better the ARES. but it is giving less detail. Even if tomorrow ET comes back to earth, the ASR kings give more detail, more fake detail, and more real detail too.

The pontus, I have not tried it, but an ARES, it gives less detail ;-D


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## ]eep (Jul 4, 2021)

I don't have less detail... So you must be missing something somewhere. Lost in translation. So logically you can't make the general statement that the Ares is to blame. In your system? Probably.
In my system I can hear everything. I am listening to very similar speakers, only the big difference is mine are not 'active'. I have very good amplification and I made sure my crossovers are as transparent as possible (designed and made them myself, see). Fullrange titanium with an AMT on top (very high F x-over). Only 1 resistor for level correction in the range mid bass to treble. Tweeter has premium caps. I bet Adam Audio has to compromise somewhere in their amplification and filtering even though the drivers are great. That's why many audiophiles don't like active speakers, you give to much control away. Often they sound ruler flat, but dead. Too much filtering.

Studio listening is different from listening to music. I know because I've had studio monitors too for a long time. The famous Roger's BBC LS3/5a. Untill I got tired of them. I missed the sparkle, the bass, detail. Too much filtering. These speakers I just finished are just like the LS3/5a, only better. (before and after that I had Reference 3A, something the complete opposite with only 1 cap, and Genesis VI little brothers to those big screens made by Arnie Nudell, late partner of Paul McGowan of PS Audio you see in his videos). 

In short, to me it sounds like you have a ceiling in your system. Active monitors are less scalable due to the electronics. What you lose by that is probably similar to what a sigma delta dac does. What an R2R could keep/gain is lost (temporal integrity). So you can't hear the benefit of that. I think.


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## Lolito

it's not a blame at all, sounds better. That is a blame is just another of your assumptions. Don't assume or foul yourself. But it has less detail, they call it FACTS. Could I be wrong? certainly, not impossible. Time travel is impossible. But I don't say I think it has less detail, I say the thing has less detail, not a personal opinion. Just as john darko also heard and commented. It's not a system problem, i can connect a headphones straight to the rca, and it will have less detail than an Amir dac, again, upside down, sideways, high on coke or with roger speaker through the rear.


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## ]eep (Jul 6, 2021)

I'm not assuming, just reasoning. Trying to get to the possible cause because what you state is not a fact but an opinion. You are giving a lot of opinions, which is fine, just state them as such and keep the discussion fair. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

This is an opinion. My opinion. I skip John Darko's YouTube because I noticed several times that he has some sort of perculiar bias that irritates me. He acts like an authority but imho he isn't. Not that I am (I don't have a YouTube channel  ) but he made several statements that do not correlate to my experience (on the Ares being one). As is the case with most 'influencers'. Also another Australian guy (Robinson?), I skip him because he tries to hard to go against the grain (verging on click bait sometimes). Sometimes people get tired, jaded, or just over enthousiastic and throw away the baby with the bathwater.

If you value YouTube reviews you should watch the last reviews of cheapaudioman on the Bifrost, D90se and the Ares II, the Ares and the D90se where he states exactly the opposite namely that the Ares has * more* detail. My point being; not that he is right or Darko is right but that they are both opposite opinions that should be taken with a grain of salt. If both were 'FACTS' (quoting capitals for effect) they cannot both be true. 

There are other reviewers on YouTube that I do like. Open, honest, discerning and knowledgeable.


----------



## AlanU

Lolito said:


> Mmmmm... I understand what you mean, but no, it has less detail. Yes, it is not flat, so yea you have to hear it, when instrument has been spatially moved in an audio presentation sense, some have been moved back, you gotta listen for those to hear that detail. Maybe now there is a spatial audio detail that before was completely missing, so there is now some extra detail, that before was not there. All in all, I prefer the ARES. But let's not try to foul ourselves, there is a world out there trying to foul you... This DAC has less detail than a good measuring one, in terms of resolution, resolving. In those other dacs, you do hear differences between mp3, and then red book and then higher stuff...
> 
> With the ares... It really doesnt matter, but between red book and higher res... It's like the Ares is doing something completely different, not concerned about that. BUT, it is less resolving and gives less detail, you can look at that upside down, sideways, under water, half body submerged. You can maybe get a cowboy boots, fill it up with jelly, then you can get naked, step your feet in those boots, and hear the DAC. Even in such situation, the ARES gives less detail, hehe. Yes, the other has edging, the other one has that fake detail, the other one tricks you with the sound presentation, seeming to give more detail of what is actually giving, yes, sure, but even without the fake detail, it does give more resolution. In my case I have a pro studio speakers, with pro studio sub, so I want a dac like this and a class A pre amp, then I can oversample audio 2x at reproduction... Overall, so much better the ARES. but it is giving less detail. Even if tomorrow ET comes back to earth, the ASR kings give more detail, more fake detail, and more real detail too.
> 
> The pontus, I have not tried it, but an ARES, it gives less detail ;-D


Lolito,

Dacs are a strange conversion unit. Perhaps Pontus may provide more detail but we are talking about a higher tier device.

May I suggest to be an "action" person.....

1) change the wall receptacle from a "spec build $3" receptacle to a higher quality one. I suggest Pass/Seymour 5362-W (This is the identical unit SR Blue-UEF duplex sells.)
2) Borrow/audition different power cords to Ares II.
3) Borrow/audition different DDC devices.
4) Borrow/audition different single ended interconnects and XLR cables.
5) More controversial topics, audition an audio grade ethernet switch that feeds your laptop/streamer.
6) FREEBIE advice .......plug your ARES II directly into the wall receptacle. Flow of music can possibly impress you!!!!!!!

Until you action the list I provided, you are not seeking the optimum variables. This is where things can change from unit to unit. 

I've been experimenting a lot lately. I have done some changes that even make me shake my head when I do a series of hardcore ABX blind fold/non verbal testing. 
I will conclude that I will not talk unless I action.  I will be serious here and say I upgraded my DC cables on my linear power supply to my Silent Angel ethernet N8 switch. The latest DC cable upgrade is called Bastei. I did not comment or assume until I tested with ABX tests. The change was bold and brutally obvious. Focus and staging was incredibly holographic using "Black Tiramisu" DC cable. 

My point here is that we all have opinions and views on audio. If you genuinely try different components and use your ears. This is the fun of this stuff. 

You took a leap of faith and jumped on a Denafrips DAC. If you tested this dac with different interconnects and PC cord. You may audibly hear a big change. 

Do not limit your experience. Borrow a friends Senn HD800 and match it with the ares ii sound signature. That combo may possibly provide you that open sound with the analog characteristic of the R2R dac. If you miss the bass, EQ the cans to make it work for your pleasure. 

You headgear with current components may just miss the mark in synergy. This is where you may get the impression of lacking detail, however your interconnect may be the bottle neck for the lack of resolution / fidelity. Hard call as you have not dove into this cabling nonsense that my ears can effortlessly detect in blind fold tests. I DO NOT own a pair of "Golden" human ears. However, I can use my "tools" and tweak where I see fit. 

If you had a nice pair of interconnects, this may simply be the ticket to bliss with NO complaints of lacking detail. 

Just remember, changing the DAC is not the ticket for automatic audio nirvana. This one variable now needs to be able to have synergy with your other components. The headphones may have been able to tame the output of your amp.  Now that you have changed upstream, DO NOT assume everything downstream is going to have "synergy". As I said, try a slightly more transparent and exciting headphone. You may possibly be in for a big surprise how it sound from the ARES II being the DAC converter.

Audio is a collective product of gear. Recently I purchased a Ferrum Hypsos sophisticated variable voltage power supply and of all things DC upgrade cables to my ethernet switch. NOTE, the two things are NOT audio components. I feel that again...... purchased audio components while it's all about the source pre dac. 

Genuinely try to go down my list. Try 1, 2, 4 and 6.


----------



## ]eep

I am going to say something really out of character here... 

Normally I would suggest that everything flows from the source. But in this case... I looked up the Adam Audio A7x. And what I read was in line with what I wrote above. And I do think that active monitor speakers (even highly praised ones like Adam Audio) of €1000 pp will not do justice to the Ares. There are too many adjustments and electronics inside that totally counter the strengths of a minimalistic R2R dac. 

The strength of the Ares is it's minimalistic approach with the best possible components. The cheap Adam Audio line is just the opposite! That's like teaming up a free spirited artist with a control freak. Marc Almond singing with auto tune. Recipe for disaster. Ok, that is over the top, but it simply is like two opposite paths or visions that do not enhance eachother or improve on the others weaknesses. Try to borrow or audition some good passive speakers with a decent amplifier. 

What I read is that the AMT and woofer have different character and transient behaviour (correct) and the AMT is super fast and airy but can sound weird. I own a pair of original ESS Heill AMT towers and made several speakers with planars and AMT's. AMT's are my favorites but you HAVE to know how to filter them. And you need lightning fast mids to couple them so they integrate well. But for matching with the Ares you would want to get rid of all the fiddling with the filter and amplification. 

I don't want to criticize your system or take away your appreciation. I am just trying to help you get even more out of it with what I know.


----------



## Lolito (Jul 9, 2021)

I'm already very happy how the DAC sounds, why should I try all those things? I am really really happy with how it sounds, I think it is a great purchase, and I will not spend any single dollar more on it. Already purchased 0.5m power cable for 3.5€ each, pro cable, very thick. Enough spent on this sir. My next upgrade will be update the firmware to the one that gives no Mac problem, the newest one. Then do the bolt tuning like the German guy on youtube says, then XLR cable for my new audeze. And not much more to be honest. I have very good interconnects, both RCA and XLR. I bet silver may affect the sound, not gonna spend on that. I will just to the mentioned changes, then just keep listening. There is no hurries on this journey folks, no need for concorde nuclear engine just yet. I already did DC mod on my amp, I put back the original feet, so now much more elevated, breathing so much better, not as hot as before. Happy with that.

The DAC locks the mac, that is my main issue now really, soundwise I could not be happier.

What I will spend money on is on soldering my own cables, doing extensions in XLR 4 pin cables, with 4 core cables, and custom chosen neutrik connectors, 90 degrees connectors, Rean mini XLR connectors... heat shrink tubes, wire cutters. Gonna mod the cables myself, save money and learn on the way. Also part of the journey.

But thank you for taking the effort of pointing out those different possible ways of improving the sound in the future, or tweaking, or ust other possibles roads in this journey, I appreciate the knowledge shared by folks with much more experience. Power cables making a different seems hard to believe, but I trust so many people say it can. I am also open to an affordable DDC to isolate or clean USB, but for next year or later. Enough money spent this year.


----------



## Lolito

]eep said:


> I am going to say something really out of character here...
> 
> Normally I would suggest that everything flows from the source. But in this case... I looked up the Adam Audio A7x. And what I read was in line with what I wrote above. And I do think that active monitor speakers (even highly praised ones like Adam Audio) of €1000 pp will not do justice to the Ares. There are too many adjustments and electronics inside that totally counter the strengths of a minimalistic R2R dac.
> 
> ...




Learn something at least kid. 65 year old, still a kid. A young mind is a blessing after all.


----------



## Lolito

new cable for the topping, 10€ aliexpress shipped 1 m.


----------



## TheRealDz

Lolito said:


> new cable for the topping, 10€ aliexpress shipped 1 m.


Pics are great and all...but how do they SOUND??? 😜


----------



## Lolito

I can't a/b a usb cable, and I would not trust myself. This newer cable though looks much more sturdy and resistant, and will not be kinked. It is just a good usb cable, shoud sound good cause not gonna spend more on such cable. Just by physical construction, has to be less prone to interferences or catching noise, I guess. And anyways, if it's gonna go to a busy cheap usb 3.0 hub... gotta fix the firmware problem first.


----------



## AlanU

Lolito said:


> I can't a/b a usb cable, and I would not trust myself. This newer cable though looks much more sturdy and resistant, and will not be kinked. It is just a good usb cable, shoud sound good cause not gonna spend more on such cable. Just by physical construction, has to be less prone to interferences or catching noise, I guess. And anyways, if it's gonna go to a busy cheap usb 3.0 hub... gotta fix the firmware problem first.


Seems that ferrite chokes are effective in EMI and RF reduction. Some research I did has indicated it can effect the rising and falling edges of the data square wave.

You can even buy "snap connectors" and create your  own ferrite treatment. The grounding is apparently tied to both ends of the usb connector. This goes to show that you should ultimately always consider that the source can be noise (switching power supply, laptop, fan motors) so this is where you must look at all of this as either being preventative in passing nasty signal or fix it ........ Now you see the reason there is no real way of fixing noise without using a DDC. 

Small handful of people will use a hardcore Precision master external clock for their DACS. Not many dacs have provisions to accept external clock.

Last week I've decided to remain on cascading 2 of my Mutecs. My 3rd was on order.   I've painfully shifted gears, taken the step on ordering an external Mutec Ref 10 master clock. This will now feed 10mhz clock to both mutec Mc-3+ USB units. So I will bypass the internal clocks of the DDC. Feeding both DDC units external clock signal. Such a process will provide redundant isolation of signal via xformers in the coax connection. Also the precision clock from the Ref10 will be more than sufficient in creating my personal "ultimate" square wave signal. This is where my insanity will stop in all of this source cleaning. Even the non SE version of the REF10 is ruffling feathers of DCS clock performance. I am just glad to have initiated some research for others. First and foremost is to enjoy music. If you create your happiness, that's what matters. The DDC talk is just allowing  you to understand that thinking out of the box has created a great upgrade path  you probably never knew.......

I'll admit due to covid, I've become obsessed with this source stuff. This is where I have discovered a new level of sound without adding new audio gear. The new fun stuff I've added in tube gear has been an additional adventure. Source is still the key.


----------



## Lolito

I think you should cascade the 3 Mutecs, not just 2 but 3. And you will not know if it was the right thing or not until you test it, 3 cascaded DDC's.


----------



## GoldenOne

I've posted a review of the Ares 2 here:


It's a great DAC for the money, though it's not actually a NOS dac


----------



## Lolito

GoldenOne said:


> I've posted a review of the Ares 2 here:
> 
> 
> It's a great DAC for the money, though it's not actually a NOS dac



Apparently a very complete review, but you don't even talk about how does it work in RCA versus XLR, for example. Since it has those issues you mention, this would have been nice to compare. Then you say it is warm but lacks impact on the bass or lacks bass... a bit of head scratching there. Nice that you mention how this company works, there is this Alvin guy then the product, and then the company is like inside some kind of bunker that no matter what's happening, they are like more hidden than the creator of bitcoin. really nice you mention the slow filter strange thing. I use mine is NOS and fast filter. OS on te dac not as good as previously, which also doesnt work well, and if it is alreay OS'sed as you say, better leave it at NOS and fast filter, for my experience so far. Now, I did not compared RCA out versus XLR out, wuld have been nice to have that information.


----------



## AlanU

Lolito said:


> I think you should cascade the 3 Mutecs, not just 2 but 3. And you will not know if it was the right thing or not until you test it, 3 cascaded DDC's.


This is leaping into a different approach of isolating noise from cascading DDC units, while utilizing internal clocks. Ref10 is in an entirely different category in Reference Master clock. 

As funding is not bottomless. I'm going with this approach that crazy obsessed audiofiles have been doing   It's a fine balance as the $$ REF10 SE120 is similar but with hand picked premium oscillator.

Some of the most insane combo's have been using REF10 se120 and cascading 3 DDC units. 

My approach is lopsided as the source cleanse of ethernet switches/LPS, Mutec treatment now surpasses my Solid state system by a substantial amount. Some may suggest that this is ridiculous (I agree). This lopsided approach is logical to me, as any component I add down stream in the future will be optimized fully.


----------



## NehPets

GoldenOne said:


> I've posted a review of the Ares 2 here:
> 
> 
> It's a great DAC for the money, though it's not actually a NOS dac



When did Ares II get an auto-ranging power supply?


----------



## Pharmaboy

AlanU said:


> Seems that ferrite chokes are effective in EMI and RF reduction. Some research I did has indicated it can effect the rising and falling edges of the data square wave.
> 
> You can even buy "snap connectors" and create your  own ferrite treatment. The grounding is apparently tied to both ends of the usb connector. This goes to show that you should ultimately always consider that the source can be noise (switching power supply, laptop, fan motors) so this is where you must look at all of this as either being preventative in passing nasty signal or fix it ........ Now you see the reason there is no real way of fixing noise without using a DDC.
> 
> ...


I'm at a simpler & cheaper place in all this compared to you: having owned & liked the sound of SPDIF converters for years, I just purchased a midrange DDC (Matrix audio x-spdif 2) and will soon install it in my main desktop system in place of the current SPDIF box; I'll continue using coax out to the DAC via a wonderful-sounding silver cable (Oyaide DR-510).

Of course I'm hoping for a sonic bump resulting from reclocking and even less jitter. I'm also hoping that this box, used w/o external power (the Matrix either runs on USB power or external walwart power) will provide a bit of shielding at the source from a groundloop that has plagued this complex system for 3-4 years, defeating every remediation tactic I throw at it.


----------



## Lolito

Pharmaboy said:


> I'm at a simpler & cheaper place in all this compared to you: having owned & liked the sound of SPDIF converters for years, I just purchased a midrange DDC (Matrix audio x-spdif 2) and will soon install it in my main desktop system in place of the current SPDIF box; I'll continue using coax out to the DAC via a wonderful-sounding silver cable (Oyaide DR-510).
> 
> Of course I'm hoping for a sonic bump resulting from reclocking and even less jitter. I'm also hoping that this box, used w/o external power (the Matrix either runs on USB power or external walwart power) will provide a bit of shielding at the source from a groundloop that has plagued this complex system for 3-4 years, defeating every remediation tactic I throw at it.


very interesting, can you recommend a next best cable, but cheaper than that one? for the poor people here and their future ddc. Do you recommend silver for this digital coax cable or not really? thanks a lot.


----------



## daytrader (Jul 11, 2021)

Repost, deleted.


----------



## Pharmaboy

Lolito said:


> very interesting, can you recommend a next best cable, but cheaper than that one? for the poor people here and their future ddc. Do you recommend silver for this digital coax cable or not really? thanks a lot.


Sorry, but this is only the 2nd coax cable I tried. The first (Billy Jeans) was sturdy & inexpensive. Based on good sound through that, I dropped toslink/glass (which I had used up 'til then) and stayed w/coax. Then I read some intensely positive comments about this silver Oyaide cable and decided to take the plunge: paid ~$215 for the 1.3M RCA version 4 yrs ago (it's now up to nearly $300)--immediately liked the sound better than w/the Billy Jeans cable.

This is the only piece of silver cable I own. I've actually avoided silver in any analog signal cable (interconnects, headphone) where silver is often described as bringing more detail & resolution in the treble (not something I want). Perhaps because this silver cable is carrying pure digital information rather than analog signal, none of the usual silver "sound" is present. It's a great cable. BTW, there are dozens of ebay listings for this cable at 50%-60% list, but I wouldn't go near any of them. Too easy to counterfeit.

Not sure if I recommend silver for coax in general--I can only specifically recommend this one silver coax cable.


----------



## ]eep

GoldenOne said:


> I've posted a review of the Ares 2 here:
> 
> 
> It's a great DAC for the money, though it's not actually a NOS dac



I can tell we gave you a lot of feedback, even beforehand, but it made the review better I think. I really liked the review. You're probably the only one on YouTube who actually took the time to open up the case and show the inside. 

In conclusion (I hate that mindless phrase 'at the end of the day'  ) it doesn't really matter if it's truly or not NOS. It is the result that counts. Only, I really do prefer the 'NOS' setting with slow rolloff. And I know there are many others who do. No need pushing the opposite. It's a choice, let everyone listen and make up their own mind. I'm still not convinced on the relation of NOS to the transient behavior and pre-ringing which I like to avoid. 

I totally agree on the phase button. That should be a NOS /OS button. 

I totally do not agree on the comment on 'cheaper r2r dacs' being rubbish or however you put it. My €45 R2R dac beats the Ares. It's not standard, I know, but it's not a given that cheaper R2R dacs can't sound good. Measuring is a different thing.


----------



## daytrader (Jul 11, 2021)

Lolito said:


> Apparently a very complete review, but you don't even talk about how does it work in RCA versus XLR, for example. Since it has those issues you mention, this would have been nice to compare. Then you say it is warm but lacks impact on the bass or lacks bass... a bit of head scratching there. Nice that you mention how this company works, there is this Alvin guy then the product, and then the company is like inside some kind of bunker that no matter what's happening, they are like more hidden than the creator of bitcoin. really nice you mention the slow filter strange thing. I use mine is NOS and fast filter. OS on te dac not as good as previously, which also doesnt work well, and if it is alreay OS'sed as you say, better leave it at NOS and fast filter, for my experience so far. Now, I did not compared RCA out versus XLR out, wuld have been nice to have that information.


I very much appreciated his explanation on NOS vs OS.  I think it’s up to the end user to figure out what sounds best even down to which output to use.  Just try both, at separate times of course as we see based on his information re the output stage.  Plus the high impedance thing was a good to know as well for mating to equipment.


----------



## daytrader

]eep said:


> I can tell we gave you a lot of feedback, even beforehand, but it made the review better I think. I really liked the review. You're probably the only one on YouTube who actually took the time to open up the case and show the inside.
> 
> In conclusion (I hate that mindless phrase 'at the end of the day'  ) it doesn't really matter if it's truly or not NOS. It is the result that counts. Only, I really do prefer the 'NOS' setting with slow rolloff. And I know there are many others who do. No need pushing the opposite. It's a choice, let everyone listen and make up their own mind. I'm still not convinced on the relation of NOS to the transient behavior and pre-ringing which I like to avoid.
> 
> ...


Wait!  I think I read in the online manual, in NOS filters have no effect.  That only in OS they do.  Is the manual wrong?  Or am I missing something?


----------



## GoldenOne

daytrader said:


> Wait!  I think I read in the online manual, in NOS filters have no effect.  That only in OS they do.  Is the manual wrong?  Or am I missing something?


That's correct. 
In nos the filters don't do anything. 

On a real nos dac there would be no filter (otherwise it wouldn't be NOS).

On denafrips 'nos' is effectively just a 3rd digital filter option. So you have fast, slow, and linear interpolate


----------



## gdwallasign

Lolito said:


> Apparently a very complete review, but you don't even talk about how does it work in RCA versus XLR, for example. Since it has those issues you mention, this would have been nice to compare. Then you say it is warm but lacks impact on the bass or lacks bass... a bit of head scratching there. Nice that you mention how this company works, there is this Alvin guy then the product, and then the company is like inside some kind of bunker that no matter what's happening, they are like more hidden than the creator of bitcoin. really nice you mention the slow filter strange thing. I use mine is NOS and fast filter. OS on te dac not as good as previously, which also doesnt work well, and if it is alreay OS'sed as you say, better leave it at NOS and fast filter, for my experience so far. Now, I did not compared RCA out versus XLR out, wuld have been nice to have that information.


I don't think the warm vs. lacking bass hit is head scratching at all. In hqplayer I've experienced just such a thing.


----------



## TheRealDz

Lolito said:


> very interesting, can you recommend a next best cable, but cheaper than that one? for the poor people here and their future ddc. Do you recommend silver for this digital coax cable or not really? thanks a lot.


I bought this Oyaide:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/RCA-plug-d...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0

Apogee WideEye is also supposedly a very good bargain:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Apogee-WYD...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0


----------



## daytrader

I bought this one on Amazon and like it as well.
Geistnote's Apogee Wyde Eye 75Ω S/PDIF (RCA) Cable ~ WE-RR (1.0m) $50.​


----------



## daytrader (Jul 12, 2021)

Oyaide DST-75R V2 S/PDIF…

No idea about this one but lots of good reviews over on AudioAsylum. https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=Oyaide+DST-75R+V2&_sacat=293&LH_TitleDesc=0&_sop=15

. The Oyaide DST-75R V2 S/PDIF digital coaxial cable features an 18 AWG solid core 102 SSC copper center conductor with "Cordell structure" PE + Teflon insulation to minimize dielectric loss, pure copper dual shielding, and a rhodium over silver plated brass rca connector not unlike a Cardas design.


----------



## Jay_vs

I've been using this guys cables for years. they are brilliant. 
https://www.markgrantcables.co.uk/uk/digital-cables/mark-grant-hdx1-pure-copper-digital-coax-cable/


----------



## ]eep

You're right on the filter, the NOS setting doesn't have those filters. I wouldn't use the fast filter however. Never mind strange graphs, fast filters always interfere with phase purity. The slower the better. 

On the bass part, maybe with headphones it's different but I never get that 'slow in the bass' part from a dac. The interaction between amp and speakers, damping factor, speaker filter and woofer effective mass has so much more impact on bass performance, slam and speed that the influence of the dac is insignificant. And even if it did, it would be more likely be on the side of the output stage than the actual DAC. I have no complaints whatsoever in the bass department. Easy for me to say with my Genesis subs. But slam has more to do with upper bass, lower mids than with extension from the dac (5Hz is no problem for a dac,it is for a speaker). Listening to Blue Man Group atm, no probs here... 😋


----------



## daytrader

]eep said:


> You're right on the filter, the NOS setting doesn't have those filters. I wouldn't use the fast filter however. Never mind strange graphs, fast filters always interfere with phase purity. The slower the better.
> 
> On the bass part, maybe with headphones it's different but I never get that 'slow in the bass' part from a dac. The interaction between amp and speakers, damping factor, speaker filter and woofer effective mass has so much more impact on bass performance, slam and speed that the influence of the dac is insignificant. And even if it did, it would be more likely be on the side of the output stage than the actual DAC. I have no complaints whatsoever in the bass department. Easy for me to say with my Genesis subs. But slam has more to do with upper bass, lower mids than with extension from the dac (5Hz is no problem for a dac,it is for a speaker). Listening to Blue Man Group atm, no probs here... 😋


Listening through my Stax ear speaker system, the NOS without [slow or fast] seems to work well with my estats, even if not exactly pure NOS. 😳


----------



## Lolito

daytrader said:


> Listening through my Stax ear speaker system, the NOS without [slow or fast] seems to work well with my estats, even if not exactly pure NOS. 😳


same here, I do not even do OS in the software either... plain red book sounds great here, once your brain gets used to it.


----------



## ARCXENOS

Did anyone pair the ares 2 with the Denafrips iris? Specifically for headphone usage, is it worth it?


----------



## AlanU

ARCXENOS said:


> Did anyone pair the ares 2 with the Denafrips iris? Specifically for headphone usage, is it worth it?


I'd go for a KTE SU-2 which is a custom modified/supercharged Singxer SU-2 from Kitsune. 

At least you can have an upgrade path by purchasing an over seas After Dark external 10mhz clock. That setup would certainly trump the Iris with no upgrade path.


----------



## Kiats

Happy to receive my Ares II. I have a quick question though: I read in the manual that to go to NOS, I press the Mute button, and then Opt 1 button to light it up which means it is in NOS mode. When I do that, the Opt1 and CO 1 lights come on. But after a while, the lights go off. Is that within expectations? 

Thanks! Apologies but the manual does not actually say if they should remain on.


----------



## Coztomba

Kiats said:


> Happy to receive my Ares II. I have a quick question though: I read in the manual that to go to NOS, I press the Mute button, and then Opt 1 button to light it up which means it is in NOS mode. When I do that, the Opt1 and CO 1 lights come on. But after a while, the lights go off. Is that within expectations?
> 
> Thanks! Apologies but the manual does not actually say if they should remain on.


Yep that's how it works.


----------



## Kiats

Coztomba said:


> Yep that's how it works.


Thank you so much! I can now sit back and enjoy it.


----------



## Kiats

daytrader said:


> Listening through my Stax ear speaker system, the NOS without [slow or fast] seems to work well with my estats, even if not exactly pure NOS. 😳


Listening through Mjolnir Carbon and Stax SR007 Mk2, NOS sounds good...


----------



## Kiats (Jul 24, 2021)

Spent the entire afternoon and most of the evening so far stuck to my Stax rig. I took the plunge on the Ares II because I have been happily using my Luxury & Precision P6 Pro and LP6 DAPs as USB DAC and LO into my desktop rig, with much joy. I grew up around tubes and before R2R DACs became obsolete in mainstream music gear. Anyway, this sound signature takes me further down memory lane and nostalgia. With USB DAC from my M1 Mac Mini and desktop power from Isotek EVO3 Aquarius, there is something to be said for a desktop R2R DAC. Happy. Very happy.


----------



## ARCXENOS

My Ares II unit finally arrived, it sounds great with my Feliks Echo. 

I am still unsure if I want to invest in a DDC yet(don't what I am missing out if I don't know know what I am missing ), but so far being directly fed in by my desktop pc through USB, the Ares II sounds fantastic.

Strangely, for some reason I can't explain, the denafrip's driver seem to be affected by topping's, I had to uninstall topping's to get it to work, anyone else ever faced that issue?


----------



## john57

The topping driver should not be affecting the Denafrips as it does not affect mine. Did you reboot the computer?


----------



## ARCXENOS

john57 said:


> The topping driver should not be affecting the Denafrips as it does not affect mine. Did you reboot the computer?


Yep, I immediately rebooted upon prompted by the denafrips installation I believe

Problem seems to be gone regardless (since the topping's was uninstalled)


----------



## kingoftown1

USB audio drivers can definitely impact each other.  I had to uninstall the topping driver in order to use singxer's a while back.


----------



## sajunky

Yes, driver versions can use conflicting DLL's. Install an older version first, then update the other device which comes with the newer XMOS version. It may not work, but usually upward compatibility is preserved.

If both devices are needed in the same time, uninstall both drivers and use built-in UAC2.0 driver.


----------



## Lolito

Kiats said:


> Spent the entire afternoon and most of the evening so far stuck to my Stax rig. I took the plunge on the Ares II because I have been happily using my Luxury & Precision P6 Pro and LP6 DAPs as USB DAC and LO into my desktop rig, with much joy. I grew up around tubes and before R2R DACs became obsolete in mainstream music gear. Anyway, this sound signature takes me further down memory lane and nostalgia. With USB DAC from my M1 Mac Mini and desktop power from Isotek EVO3 Aquarius, there is something to be said for a desktop R2R DAC. Happy. Very happy.


no mac issues with your ares? what version is the firmware? if you plug it and then unplug it, any problem?


----------



## Kiats

Lolito said:


> no mac issues with your ares? what version is the firmware? if you plug it and then unplug it, any problem?



What sort of issues? V3.4.1 according to the Vinshine website. Had plugged and unplugged yesterday when first setting it up with power on etc. Before I realised I had to set input to USB after I had set it to NOS. Came on nicely from standby this morning. Am now listening on Roon.


----------



## Lolito

Thanks. Mine gives no computer issues when I connect it to the regular USB 3.0 hub, which is connected to the external display, that is connected to the macbook. Like that works without issues. But if I plug it directly to the macbook, or to the wired keyboard and the keyboard to the macbook, sounds so much better, at least to the keyboard. It acts like a usb 2.0 hub, and sounds so much more holographic and 3d, and a clean full detailed bass. Before it was the typical computer audio sound...

Now, if I press any button on the dac, I gotta restart the mac, it gets locked.


----------



## Kiats

Switched from the Stax rig. Listening on Apple Music on the M1 Mac Mini, controlled by the iTunes Remote. M1 Mac Mini > Denafrips Ares II > Cavalli Liquid Gold > Abyss 1266. Relaxed listening before another manic week ahead…


----------



## NehPets

Kiats said:


> Switched from the Stax rig. Listening on Apple Music on the M1 Mac Mini, controlled by the iTunes Remote. M1 Mac Mini > Denafrips Ares II > Cavalli Liquid Gold > Abyss 1266. Relaxed listening before another manic week ahead…


Where do you rank Ares II compared to your other sources?


----------



## ]eep

Not that you asked me, but I thought is has been too long since I played some vinyl. That does sound better. Always has, depending on the recording, mastering, pressing etc. of course. It just puts on an extra layer of ease, naturalness, spaciousness. I played Anna Calvi on lp and I just floated away in space. With the Ares it was quieter but also a bit more restrained, polite. Just a bit less lively, less real. In defense, it was only 16-44. And my cartridge alone costs a multiple of the Ares. I wouldn't recommend listening with headphones either because that would bring out the noise and reduce spaciousness. 

So there is still room for improvement.


----------



## Kiats

NehPets said:


> Where do you rank Ares II compared to your other sources?


Hmm… I think it is a great source. Brings the desktop R2R presentation to the table. I can say that it stands its ground against my other dedicated DAC, the Bricasti M1 in terms of enjoyment. Though of course, the latter is almost 10 years old now and I am sure there has been so much progress in this space. The reason I had picked the Bricasti all those years ago to replace my Benchmark DAC was because I wanted something more natural and relaxed. 

Insofar as the R2R DAPs which I use LO from prior to the arrival of the Ares II, the Ares II has the advantage of desktop power through good power cable and being routed through a good power conditioner. The two DAPs are not cheap by any stretch of the imagination but that is the price you pay for all the work that goes into miniaturisation. Especially the LP6 where the designers wanted to squeeze a desktop player and DAC into a small box. Very versatile DAPs, excellent sonics and very good sources, but you pay the premium for the portability and size.


----------



## dougms3

Recently got my Ares ii and I'm really enjoying it.  

Just curious if anyone is using the DSD1024 capabilities of the dac.  If so, which software are you using?

I'm using Jriver, but it is limited to DSD512 (8x).


----------



## Forsaked

dougms3 said:


> Recently got my Ares ii and I'm really enjoying it.
> 
> Just curious if anyone is using the DSD1024 capabilities of the dac.  If so, which software are you using?
> 
> I'm using Jriver, but it is limited to DSD512 (8x).


HQPlayer can use it and even supports DSD2048.


----------



## prymortal

sajunky said:


> Yes, driver versions can use conflicting DLL's. Install an older version first, then update the other device which comes with the newer XMOS version. It may not work, but usually upward compatibility is preserved.
> 
> If both devices are needed in the same time, uninstall both drivers and use built-in UAC2.0 driver.


Here is a simple fix & yes this also works for AMD update driver conflict issues as well: https://github.com/lostindark/DriverStoreExplorer/releases very simple install, run Rapr scroll down to Sound, Video & Game Controllers then manually check for older versions, click & delete driver.
(Or easy method right side "select old drivers" then "delete drivers"). It does the same thing Microsoft autoruns program does but its more idiot proof/safe.)


----------



## simon740

Hello all...

Im waiting for my Ares II and now looking for some CDT - cd transport with usb input. So I can use my hdd with music too and connect it to cdt. Is there anything like that at all?

regards,
Simon


----------



## john57 (Aug 9, 2021)

There are several CDT drives that you can use. I am currently using Pioneer BDR-XD07S and rip it to my storage devices.


----------



## sajunky (Aug 17, 2021)

There is a new review of Ares II and measurements released just two days ago. Measurements confirm @GoldenOne finding that Ares II is not a true NOS. As usual his interpretation is flawed, Ares II is oversampling 44.1kHz source 16x, not 32x he claimed. The same target frequency as in OS mode. An identical conclusion is made on the other forum when investigating Terminator NOS. Pity it happened so late, quality of reporting definitely sucks.

Aside of a thorough investigation of a fake Denafrips NOS mode which is absolutely convincig, it is a very good set of measurements showing a quality of power supply and a ladder linearity compensation method, enjoy.


----------



## Slade01

sajunky said:


> There is a new review of Ares II and measurements released just two days ago. Measurements confirm @GoldenOne finding that Ares II is not a true NOS. As usual his interpretation is flawed, Ares II is oversampling 44.1kHz source 16x, not 32x he claimed. The same target frequency as in OS mode. An identical conclusion is made on the other forum when investigating Terminator NOS. Pity it happened so late, quality of reporting definitely sucks.
> 
> Aside of a thorough investigation of a fake Denafrips NOS mode which is absolutely convincig, it is a very good set of measurements showing a quality of power supply and a ladder linearity compensation method, enjoy.



Thanks for sharing that review/measurements  link....very interesting read.  Yeah on the other forum GoldenOne still affirms its still one of the better measuring DACS for and R2R.    

Even if the consensus ends up that it is a fake NOS mode, it still does a pretty damn good job.  I wonder if any one at Denafrips/Vinshine would ever respond to this.  That would be an interesting continued discourse from them.   Especially since the Terminator price point is very high - that in that tier, it would (or should) warrant what would be true NOS implementation, or if the (psudo NOS) manner is just what is determined to be the Denafrips house sound carried throughout the line.

At the end of the day, users and reviewers alike still generally like what they hear.  Fortunately, I don't get bothered by fake sine waves and such (at least at the ares 2's price point).


----------



## sajunky

Sure, very good value indeed if someone is not looking for NOS.

Strictly speaking it is not a fake NOS, it is a classic OS, implemented in a primitive old-fasioned way. Fake NOS is in Holo Audio DAC's, as they put lot of efforts to hide a presence of digital filtering in their NOS mode. How they did it in details is still unknown, lets hope it will came to the light soon. But they seem to target current Delta-Sigma users, it sounds more similar too.


----------



## GoldenOne (Aug 18, 2021)

sajunky said:


> Sure, very good value indeed if someone is not looking for NOS.
> 
> Strictly speaking it is not a fake NOS, it is a classic OS, implemented in a primitive old-fasioned way. Fake NOS is in Holo Audio DAC's, as they put lot of efforts to hide a presence of digital filtering in their NOS mode. How they did it in details is still unknown, lets hope it will came to the light soon. But they seem to target current Delta-Sigma users, it sounds more similar too.


Instead of repeatedly making all these silly accusations it would be great if you could actually provide ANY evidence whatsoever as you were asked to do so repeatedly in the other thread.

Holo does not do OS in NOS mode.
When using OS, it utilises the AKM upsampling chip. When in NOS, the AKM chip is not in the signal path. And in fact the spring 3 doesn't even have it at all.


----------



## sajunky

GoldenOne said:


> Instead of repeatedly making all these silly accusations it would be great if you could actually provide ANY evidence whatsoever as you were asked to do so repeatedly in the other thread.
> 
> Holo does not do OS in NOS mode.


You talk like you know more than others, so please read carefully what I wrote.


----------



## GoldenOne

sajunky said:


> You talk like you know more than others, so please read carefully what I wrote.


?


----------



## sajunky

GoldenOne said:


> ?


Your reply has nothing to do what I wrote. Better do not reply if you can't read.


----------



## GoldenOne

sajunky said:


> Your reply has nothing to do what I wrote. Better do not reply if you can't read.


You said that holo does not actually do NOS.
I said that you were making a silly accusation as you did in the other thread and refusing to provide any evidence or justification for it


----------



## sajunky (Aug 18, 2021)

GoldenOne said:


> You said that holo does not actually do NOS.


That's correct.
And you say:


GoldenOne said:


> Holo does not do OS in NOS mode.


I didn't say it does OS, but I explained briefly what HoloAudio really does in so called NOS mode and why it cannot be called NOS, but you can't read. It is like goose talking to a pig, no communication, just making a noise.

Instead reading carefully you started accusing me of repeatedly making silly accusations.

Your friendly pig.


----------



## elnero




----------



## simon740

My Ares II is here! Now is time to burn in...


----------



## PopZeus

Ah they switched to blue LEDs!


----------



## simon740

PopZeus said:


> Ah they switched to blue LEDs!


No no. They do it for me. Because I wanna blue LEDs.


----------



## pbi76

simon740 said:


> No no. They do it for me. Because I wanna blue LEDs.


Nice! Did they cost extra?


----------



## simon740

pbi76 said:


> Nice! Did they cost extra?


For me no extra cost :-D


----------



## NehPets

simon740 said:


> For me no extra cost :-D


I wonder if they'll make me one with a NOS mode at no extra cost?


----------



## ]eep (Aug 20, 2021)

Simon has blue eyes! Err... I mean blue lights. Looks really cool and distinctive. And congrats on getting it. 

It's really simple to change leds but it's a really nice touch. It could also be functional to change colors for dsd, or per source. Sometimes it's hard to tell in the dark what is going on, is this c1 or 2 or opt? First time I open it up I'll change some.


----------



## simon740

]eep said:


> Simon has blue eyes! Err... I mean blue lights. Looks really cool and distinctive. And congrats on getting it.


Thank you.


----------



## simon740

Anybody use Allo DigiOne Signature with Ares II?

regards,
Simon


----------



## dougms3

Is anyone using an upgraded power cable with their Ares II?

If so which cable are you using?


----------



## TheRealDz

I am using an Oyaide Tunami Terzo on my Ares and amp.


----------



## dougms3

TheRealDz said:


> I am using an Oyaide Tunami Terzo on my Ares and amp.


I think thats an interconnect but good to know what people are using.  I'm using Zu Audio xlr interconnects.  

Considering an upgraded power cable since I've noticed a significant reduction in noise with a Furutech FP-314ag power cord on the dac.


----------



## TheRealDz

dougms3 said:


> I think thats an interconnect but good to know what people are using.  I'm using Zu Audio xlr interconnects.
> 
> Considering an upgraded power cable since I've noticed a significant reduction in noise with a Furutech FP-314ag power cord on the dac.


Good catch.  I am using Terzo XLRs between DAC and amp, and then Tunami v2 power cables.


----------



## dougms3

TheRealDz said:


> Good catch.  I am using Terzo XLRs between DAC and amp, and then Tunami v2 power cables.


How is that cable?

Would you recommend it?


----------



## TheRealDz

dougms3 said:


> How is that cable?
> 
> Would you recommend it?


Absolutely, for the interconnect.  It cost me less than $100 for half meter to terminate it myself (including cost for Neutrik XLRs) and it is indistinguishable from my $350 Analysis Plus Copper Oval interconnect - which is to say silky and organic.  Note that it is very stiff though, capable of lifting some equipment. 

The power cables SEEM to sound better than the Analysis Plus and Pangea cables they replaced, but I can't say for sure (so the difference is minimal, if at all).


----------



## mornindaze

simon740 said:


> Anybody use Allo DigiOne Signature with Ares II?
> 
> regards,
> Simon


I have an Allo Usbridge Signature feeding my Ares II, if that is of any interest to you. Anything specific you would like to know?

Moving on, I  have an unclarity and maybe more technical people can shed some light on this.
I use the Ares II as a desktop DAC feeding a Topping PRE90 preamp. The output impedance of the Ares II on XLR is 1.25kohm and the input impedance of the PRE90 is 2.2kohm. I see that rule of thumb would be to have a ratio of 1:10 between these two devices.
Is this combination technically OK? The return period of the PRE90 expires in 2-3 days and I'm not sure which way to chose. Soundwise I don't hear anything wrong.


----------



## sajunky

mornindaze said:


> Moving on, I  have an unclarity and maybe more technical people can shed some light on this.
> I use the Ares II as a desktop DAC feeding a Topping PRE90 preamp. The output impedance of the Ares II on XLR is 1.25kohm and the input impedance of the PRE90 is 2.2kohm. I see that rule of thumb would be to have a ratio of 1:10 between these two devices.
> Is this combination technically OK? The return period of the PRE90 expires in 2-3 days and I'm not sure which way to chose. Soundwise I don't hear anything wrong.


Not right combination for two reasons. The one you mention create low pas filter on the input, it will probably fall in the audio band due to the added impedance from a DAC. It is why a general rule 1:10 was created. An additional problem is with overloading a ladder with such low impedance, it will degrade ladder linearity, possibly increasing THD to the perceived level.

A second reason is because Topping using nested loopback opamp architecture. It is good for Delta-Sigma where sound is already simplified - filtered and noise shaped, not good for R2R implementations. You should look for a traditional class A discrete amplifiers (sans opamps), feedback free or very moderate. As an alternative a tube amp if you can afford a cost and maintenance.


----------



## mornindaze

Thanks for the detailed response @sajunky !
Just to be more clear, the amp i'm using is a NAD C298 and do not plan on changing it. The Ares II is also here to stay as I like it very much.
Seems like the only culprit here is the PRE90.


----------



## xllms

A curious observer here looking to replace existing headphone system DAC (Topping d10s) to pair with the Kinki Studio THR-1. Just wondering if anyone has any thoughts of experience to share about this combination (THR-1 & Ares II)?


----------



## dougms3

xllms said:


> A curious observer here looking to replace existing headphone system DAC (Topping d10s) to pair with the Kinki Studio THR-1. Just wondering if anyone has any thoughts of experience to share about this combination (THR-1 & Ares II)?


You have a $100 dac feeding a $1200 amp. 

Are you concerned that the Ares will sound worse than the d10s?


----------



## xllms (Aug 29, 2021)

dougms3 said:


> You have a $100 dac feeding a $1200 amp.
> 
> Are you concerned that the Ares will sound worse than the d10s?


The D10s is a spare DAC. It is not meant for the Arya and THR-1. I am not sure how Ares II will match with THR-1. I have heard positive experiences in the Ares II and Singxer SA-1, but no feedbacks on the THR-1. Hence, just trying my luck in here to see if anyone has any relevant feedbacks.


----------



## ]eep

mornindaze said:


> I have an Allo Usbridge Signature feeding my Ares II, if that is of any interest to you. Anything specific you would like to know?
> 
> Moving on, I  have an unclarity and maybe more technical people can shed some light on this.
> I use the Ares II as a desktop DAC feeding a Topping PRE90 preamp. The output impedance of the Ares II on XLR is 1.25kohm and the input impedance of the PRE90 is 2.2kohm. I see that rule of thumb would be to have a ratio of 1:10 between these two devices.
> Is this combination technically OK? The return period of the PRE90 expires in 2-3 days and I'm not sure which way to chose. Soundwise I don't hear anything wrong.


I use the SMSL SP400 as preamp and it works fine. I know. It's a headphone amp. But it does the same as the Topping Pre90 also (relay volume control and 2 inputs). Only with the proper 47kOhm input impedance. And a proper HP out I hardly ever use as a bonus. 

I was really weary about any sonic interference because it's an extra link in the chain plus 2 extra cables. But it gives me the required volume control I need for the Ares (volume on my android TV varies enormously for different applications; TV, YouTube, Netflix etc, also compared to CD and DP5) without any deterioration. Not that I can hear anyway. I have another passive input switch (without volume, just 4 relays) and I can switch instantly but I don't hear any difference. 

I am a fan of the minimalist approach; minimal amount of components in the signal path (L C or R) and this always serves me best. So the Sp400 is not really in line with that. But it works fine. 

The cables I use are 8 strand woven silver plated 6N OCC. Balanced, bal>RCA and a flexible 6 strand woven pure silver from my tda1543. I also have several brand cables but these are cheaper and better. I'm not wasting any more money on that.


----------



## simon740 (Aug 30, 2021)

Today I’m trying Ares II with Bluesound Node streamer. Coax connection. Nice sound. For now only music from my HDD and some internet radio, Radio Paradise...must try Tidal. 

regards,
Simon


----------



## spruce

Does anyone have experience pairing the Ares II with Singxer  SA-1? Any feedback would be appreciated!


----------



## sajunky

spruce said:


> Does anyone have experience pairing the Ares II with Singxer  SA-1? Any feedback would be appreciated!


I say big NO to any design with dual sealed SMPS generating + and - power rails. See this post.


----------



## Jay_vs

spruce said:


> Does anyone have experience pairing the Ares II with Singxer  SA-1? Any feedback would be appreciated!


I say a big YES. Sounds amazing together.


----------



## spruce

That’s what I’ve heard. Thanks!


----------



## simon740

simon740 said:


> Today I’m trying Ares II with Bluesound Node streamer. Coax connection. Nice sound. For now only music from my HDD and some internet radio, Radio Paradise...must try Tidal.
> 
> regards,
> Simon


Hello,

can I ask what coax cable for around 150€(max) to buy?

regards,
Simon


----------



## Lolito

spruce said:


> Does anyone have experience pairing the Ares II with Singxer  SA-1? Any feedback would be appreciated!


I use that combo, sounds great. Just don't do the singxer mod, it will sound worse or create problems due to who knows what... that was my experience. singxer gets really hot, and it is not true class A apparently. If you have the money and you appreciate the benefits of whatever 2K$ class pure A amp... I think for the price the sa1 is unbeatable at the moment. For the price. Same thing with the ares2. this being said, both devices have a hell of a lot of caveats, like everything. ares2 have lot of problems with mac, with stock firmware... sa1 gets extremely hot always, knob not great, but can be swapped, pot is really good. then ares2 usb implementation is very good, but not best. a ddc might help, then again you are limited in bandwidth, but if a ddc to coxial helps with isolation and purity of sound via usb, and improve mac usability... great then.

greatest combo ATM


----------



## Jay_vs

Lolito said:


> ares2 have lot of problems with mac, with stock firmware... sa1 gets extremely hot always, knob not great, but can be swapped, pot is really good. then ares2 usb implementation is very good, but not best. a ddc might help, then again you are limited in bandwidth, but if a ddc to coxial helps with isolation and purity of sound via usb, and improve mac usability... great then.
> 
> greatest combo ATM


My SA-1 is only just warm, never hot. I went back to the stock knob, I really like it now. It's dark in my room and the divot for my thumb makes it easy to know what volume I'm at. 
You could maybe have a look at the ifi Zen Stream. it's made a huge difference to my system, it sounds great. Also would basically eliminate your problems with Ares II and mac.


----------



## PopZeus

I love the Singxer F1 as a minimalist DDC for the Ares. The F1 runs on bus power so I don't need any extra cables or plug on my power strip, and it's a sonic step up from the Ares' native USB implementation. Since the Mac only sees the F1, this bypasses any Ares' incompatibility with Mac OS X.


----------



## Lolito

Jay_vs said:


> My SA-1 is only just warm, never hot. I went back to the stock knob, I really like it now. It's dark in my room and the divot for my thumb makes it easy to know what volume I'm at.
> You could maybe have a look at the ifi Zen Stream. it's made a huge difference to my system, it sounds great. Also would basically eliminate your problems with Ares II and mac.


That is a clear plus point for the original knob, that hole for the finger to know the volume position without looking, any desk type knob should have that tactile feedback thing.

Apparently there is a newest firmware version out there, but I need a pc to upgrade it. That one is supposed to give no problems... Don't know if the problem is that, or it is that I have it connected via apple usb keyboard hub, so it is usb 2.0 hub, and sounds so so so much better than on my populated usb 3.0 hub. I guess I should first try the firmware upgrade, and then get a decent DDC. Singxer F1 certainly a candidate, but we are researching about the Douk audio poorman DDC, I think it is better, accepts external power, and does I2S, for future dacs with that...


----------



## Lolito

Streamers are great I guess, but since I have this system attached to my computer, to play whatever, I do't want to "stream" anything, I don't use spotify or simialr service, it is all local library, not even on a network, the music is in my laptop storage card... OLD WINAMP STYLE BRO!! I will upgrade when ever something new really happens, or for a living room system, certainly a streamer could be great, not here.


----------



## Jay_vs

No worries mate. Different strokes for different folks and all that.


----------



## xllms

I have pulled the trigger and Ares II has just reached my doorstep today. Upon hooking up onto my headphone system to start the burning in process and straight out of the box, it sounds so smooth and detailed. 
However I realised a peculiarity. I use Roon to play my music and the settings are set at “DSD over PCM v1.0 (DoP) and when I play DSD files, the DSD LED indicator does not light up, instead, 44.1K & 8x LEDs are lighted up, despite playing different forms of DSD files (64, 128, 256).
Is there anything I have set up incorrectly?


----------



## Jay_vs

Try setting Roon to DSD Native.


----------



## xllms

Jay_vs said:


> Try setting Roon to DSD Native.


I don’t seem to have Native DSD as a selection.


----------



## sajunky (Sep 4, 2021)

@xllms. Your Roon settings is fine. Use either WASAPI or ASIO output. For WASAPI make sure to enable system-wide exclusive mode settings in the Windows Sound control panel (as on the attached screenshoot). If not enabled Roon will use shared mode and it would go through system mixer (always resampling to the value given in Windows).

A native DSD option as suggested above only applies to the ASIO output, both options (Native and DoP) will work on ASIO. For WASAPI only DoP, but check this Windows settings. There is no native DSD option on the WASAPI output page.

For ASIO support you need to install Denafrips/TheSycon drivers.


----------



## xllms

sajunky said:


> @xllms. Your Roon settings is fine. Use either WASAPI or ASIO output. For WASAPI make sure to enable system-wide exclusive mode settings in the Windows Sound control panel (as on the attached screenshoot). If not enabled Roon will use shared mode and it would go through system mixer (always resampling to the value given in Windows).
> 
> A native DSD option as suggested above only applies to the ASIO output, both options (Native and DoP) will work on ASIO. For WASAPI only DoP, but check this Windows settings. There is no native DSD option on the WASAPI output page.
> 
> For ASIO support you need to install Denafrips/TheSycon drivers.


@sajunky 
As I am using a MacBook Pro, are there any similar settings to be done on the macOS? So far, I have done the following:
(Applications->Utilities->Audio MIDI Setup) and under USB HiRes Audio (within Audio MIDI Setup), Format is set to the highest (768,000Hz) which will change depending on the file. However, the DSD LED will never light up despite playing DSD files ranging from 64 to 256.
Pardon my ignorance, are WASAPI/ASIO relevant to macOS?


----------



## Kiats

xllms said:


> @sajunky
> As I am using a MacBook Pro, are there any similar settings to be done on the macOS? So far, I have done the following:
> (Applications->Utilities->Audio MIDI Setup) and under USB HiRes Audio (within Audio MIDI Setup), Format is set to the highest (768,000Hz) which will change depending on the file. However, the DSD LED will never light up despite playing DSD files ranging from 64 to 256.
> Pardon my ignorance, are WASAPI/ASIO relevant to macOS?


Question is whether you have your DSP set to have SRC on? Because if you do, whatever you set for that will take precedence and everything will be converted to PCM if you have selected that option. I use a Mac Mini for my Roon Core.


----------



## Kiats

Kiats said:


> Question is whether you have your DSP set to have SRC on? Because if you do, whatever you set for that will take precedence and everything will be converted to PCM if you have selected that option. I use a Mac Mini for my Roon Core.


@xllms    To bring on the DSP icon and options, click on the volume icon at the bottom right hand corner. Then disable SRC. Then your DSD will not be converted to PCM.


----------



## Kiats

@xllms The first screenshot is what you should see if DSD is being played with SRC disabled in DSP; the second shows the DSD being converted into PCM etc.


----------



## xllms (Sep 4, 2021)

@Kiats
thank you for sharing. Sample rate conversion is already disabled as shown below. Have I missed out anything in the settings?


----------



## Kiats (Sep 4, 2021)

xllms said:


> @Kiats
> thank you for sharing. Sample rate conversion is already disabled as shown below. Have I missed out anything in the settings?



Interesting. Perhaps in the device set up, under advanced settings, does your setting show what I have attached below?

If it still doesn’t work, it may be worth your while to reach out to Alvin. He can walk you through and help diagnose what the issue is. For some reason, your Roon Core is down sampling DSD to PCM…


----------



## xllms

Hi @Kiats,
I have discovered the issue. The settings in the Volume Control was set to "DSP Volume", once I changed to "Device Volume", the DSD LED lights are lighted up. However, if I use this, I can no longer the control the volume via Roon in my iPad. 

Does anyone has any solution to allow volume control on Ipad Roon while playing DSD files, as there are sonic differences to the audio quality?


----------



## Kiats

xllms said:


> Hi @Kiats,
> I have discovered the issue. The settings in the Volume Control was set to "DSP Volume", once I changed to "Device Volume", the DSD LED lights are lighted up. However, if I use this, I can no longer the control the volume via Roon in my iPad.


Ah! Glad to hear that you have solved the issue. I must confess my default is I set it device volume.


----------



## xllms

Kiats said:


> Ah! Glad to hear that you have solved the issue. I must confess my default is I set it device volume.


Greatly appreciate your help, Kiats. Thank you.


----------



## sajunky (Sep 5, 2021)

xllms said:


> Hi @Kiats,
> I have discovered the issue. The settings in the Volume Control was set to "DSP Volume", once I changed to "Device Volume", the DSD LED lights are lighted up. However, if I use this, I can no longer the control the volume via Roon in my iPad.
> 
> Does anyone has any solution to allow volume control on Ipad Roon while playing DSD files, as there are sonic differences to the audio quality?


Good to see a solution. Your trouble is related to your strong preference to volume control and it needs a comment to clear misunderstanding. DSD format do not allow a digital volume control. It means you can only use volume control after a conversion to analog. To satisfy your needs, the application would need convert a source to PCM, adjust a volume, then convert back to DSD. It seems Roon do not offer such option and they are right, as any conversion from/to DSD involve a quality degradation.


----------



## Kiats

xllms said:


> Greatly appreciate your help, Kiats. Thank you.


Any time at all! Hope you are now able to sit back and enjoy the music.


----------



## xllms

sajunky said:


> Good to see a solution. Your trouble is related to your strong preference to volume control and it needs a comment to clear misunderstanding. DSD format do not allow a digital volume control. It means you can only use volume control after a conversion to analog. To satisfy your needs, the application would need convert a source to PCM, adjust a volume, then convert back to DSD. It seems Roon do not offer such option and they are right, as any conversion from/to DSD involve a quality degradation.


Thank you for enlightening me that DSD does not allow digital volume control. Learned something new today, greatly appreciate it.


----------



## Mansinthe86

Hi guys. Everyone still happy with the Ares 2 or did someone here sell the ares again?

I want to make sure this DAC is not just "hyped" based of some reviews on YouTube.

I'm currently considering the Ares 2, Musican Pegasus & Draco, bifrost 2.

Problem with the ares 2 and bifrost 2 is to actually get my hands on one in the EU.

I'm currently running a Singer SA1 headphone amp (all analog device) and I use a Cambridge cxn V2 as streamer (dual Wolfson DAC).


And my Cxa81 has a ESS sabre DAC. That's why I'm Interested in a R2R DAC.

I have the topping D90SE and Gustard x16 on my list as well. But a R2R Dac might be more fun?


----------



## Kiats

Mansinthe86 said:


> Hi guys. Everyone still happy with the Ares 2 or did someone here sell the ares again?
> 
> I want to make sure this DAC is not just "hyped" based of some reviews on YouTube.
> 
> ...


Not sure there was a YouTube hyping the Ares II. 😆

Order directly from Vinshine. Shipping is pretty quick.


----------



## sajunky

xllms said:


> Thank you for enlightening me that DSD does not allow digital volume control. Learned something new today, greatly appreciate it.


My pleasure. The only things that disappoint me that Roon does it wrong when it converts to PCM 44.1kHz. It should convert DSD64 to PCM 24/88.2kHz, DSD128 to 24/176.4kHz and so for. Or at least it should give an option in preferences.


----------



## okan

I've recently bought ares 2 dac. This is my first r2r dac in my headphone setup (flux fa-10 and he6se). I am impressed with the sound and I am thinking to sell my topping dx7 pro. Topping has more details but there is something tempting with the ares sound. Topping's soundstage is also not bad but ares' soundstage is very tempting especially with jazz. It sounds more real. Since I've been listening sigma delta chips for years, when I first listened ares 2 , I thought this dac is not my cup of tea but after sometime I noticed ares 2 also very detailed dac. Sabre chips seems more emphasize the micro details. If my wife won't kill me , I would probably have 2 dacs for different genres  I have 10 years old imac and I am not sure if I use ares 2 via usb or optical. Usb or optical , which one would be better?


----------



## sajunky

okan said:


> I have 10 years old imac and I am not sure if I use ares 2 via usb or optical. Usb or optical , which one would be better?


MACs, even 10 years old have a modern USB implementation. Optical sound better only when USB carry a lot of ground loops. Even then, they are ways to deal with a problem. These days optical should be a last I would try.


----------



## okan

sajunky said:


> MACs, even 10 years old have a modern USB implementation. Optical sound better only when USB carry a lot of ground loops. Even then, they are ways to deal with a problem. These days optical should be a last I would try.


Thanks. I've plugged it via USB.


----------



## driftingbunnies

okan said:


> I've recently bought ares 2 dac. This is my first r2r dac in my headphone setup (flux fa-10 and he6se). I am impressed with the sound and I am thinking to sell my topping dx7 pro. Topping has more details but there is something tempting with the ares sound. Topping's soundstage is also not bad but ares' soundstage is very tempting especially with jazz. It sounds more real. Since I've been listening sigma delta chips for years, when I first listened ares 2 , I thought this dac is not my cup of tea but after sometime I noticed ares 2 also very detailed dac. Sabre chips seems more emphasize the micro details. If my wife won't kill me , I would probably have 2 dacs for different genres  I have 10 years old imac and I am not sure if I use ares 2 via usb or optical. Usb or optical , which one would be better?


If you go up the r2r dac ladder, r2r dacs will continue to have the same realness like the ares but will have the same detail and resolution of the d/s dacs.


----------



## dougms3

Built my first cable for the Ares II.  Its a thick boy furutech fp-s55n with fi-46 gold iec and plug.


----------



## Rolfgang

I'm really want to upgrade my SMSL SU-9 to an R2R DAC. My choices in that regard are between the Ares II and the Bifrost 2. Everything I've read about both DACs is that the Ares II would be a bit better for my preferences, but there is something that I'm really worried about: the latency.

A couple of reviewers have said that the DAC had a latency issue, which introduces a delay that might be noticeable during movies or gaming. Can anyone confirm that problem or is it overblown? Will the latency destroy lip-sync in movies for example?


----------



## ARCXENOS

Rolfgang said:


> I'm really want to upgrade my SMSL SU-9 to an R2R DAC. My choices in that regard are between the Ares II and the Bifrost 2. Everything I've read about both DACs is that the Ares II would be a bit better for my preferences, but there is something that I'm really worried about: the latency.
> 
> A couple of reviewers have said that the DAC had a latency issue, which introduces a delay that might be noticeable during movies or gaming. Can anyone confirm that problem or is it overblown? Will the latency destroy lip-sync in movies for example?


This is my experience, my Ares2 did not have latency to that degree. I can perfectly play FPS games (csgo, valorant) with it on my desktop setup. Both on NOS and OS modes.

Others have also told me I should be expecting latency, but my unit didn't seem to have a noticeable latency to the point of desyncing, so I don't know what else to tell you. 

The pontus 2 on the otherhand, has more people saying it has latency issues, but I have no first hand experience with it, can't comment much


----------



## royalemint

No latency issue here as well, with Ares II.


----------



## Rolfgang

ARCXENOS said:


> This is my experience, my Ares2 did not have latency to that degree. I can perfectly play FPS games (csgo, valorant) with it on my desktop setup. Both on NOS and OS modes.
> 
> Others have also told me I should be expecting latency, but my unit didn't seem to have a noticeable latency to the point of desyncing, so I don't know what else to tell you.
> 
> The pontus 2 on the otherhand, has more people saying it has latency issues, but I have no first hand experience with it, can't comment much





royalemint said:


> No latency issue here as well, with Ares II.



Thank you, both! It seems my fears were ungrounded.


----------



## dougms3

So I found out last weekend that having both outputs connected will cause severe sound degradation and distortion.  Only one output can be connected at a time.


----------



## alvin1118

*Guide: *_Can i connect the DAC output to two devices?_

_



_


----------



## Mr BubbaHyde

Hello all, I ordered my first Denafrips the other day, and have been reading thru this thread for a few days. I am very excited to get this dac as I am a huge fan of the R2R style of dac, but this is my first, (not last) go round with Denafrips. I ordered from Vinshine Audio, and I see that @alvin1118 is an active and participating member of this thread, which is fantastic within itself!!

Anyone that could point me to best practices for the Ares II, I am by no means new to this hobby, but I am new to Vinshine and Denafrips.

Hope you all have a great weekend, and of course...

Cheers!!


----------



## Slade01

Mr BubbaHyde said:


> Anyone that could point me to best practices for the Ares II, I am by no means new to this hobby, but I am new to Vinshine and Denafrips.


One of the main "best practices" point that comes out often is centered around the last two previous posts concerning connecting two devices at the same time:

*"The RCA and XLR output are shared, please use either of the output at a time. It is not recommended to use both RCA and XLR output simultaneously."*

The consequence is that obviously, connecting the dac to two (active/on) output devices simultaneously will cause sound quality degradation.  Alvin has a workaround for that, which he just posted that would split the xlr connections into two pairs of RCA by way of custom cables.    

One of the primary things to keep in mind.  Or if you have two amps (e.g. one balanced, one RCA connects) that you connect to with the ares feeding into it, but only using it one at a time, many of us connect them via a switch, and only using one device actively.


----------



## Mr BubbaHyde

Slade01 said:


> One of the main "best practices" point that comes out often is centered around the last two previous posts concerning connecting two devices at the same time:
> 
> *"The RCA and XLR output are shared, please use either of the output at a time. It is not recommended to use both RCA and XLR output simultaneously."*
> 
> ...


Hey @Slade01  Thanks so much for that! I believe I know you from the DarkV thread, Ann I wrong??

Yes that is one of the things I planned for in terms of using a switch, as I do used balanced and unbalanced in some of my systems.

Thanks again!! Can't wait!


----------



## Slade01

Mr BubbaHyde said:


> Hey @Slade01  Thanks so much for that! I believe I know you from the DarkV thread, Ann I wrong??


Not wrong.  I frequent the DV tube rolling threads a lot so I am well acquainted over there (and their hijinks). Lol.


----------



## Mr BubbaHyde

Slade01 said:


> Not wrong.  I frequent the DV tube rolling threads a lot so I am well acquainted over there (and their hijinks). Lol.


Hijinks is a good word for it!! 🤣🤣


----------



## dougms3

alvin1118 said:


> *Guide: *_Can i connect the DAC output to two devices?_
> 
> _
> 
> ...


Alvin, the dac is excellent.  I love it and have no complaints but that issue with both outputs being used simultaneously should be listed on the product page or at least in the manual.  

I was getting severe distortion and wasted time thinking it was an issue with one of my cables.

Its not an issue for me as long I know about it but it may be a dealbreaker for some people.


----------



## Mansinthe86

dougms3 said:


> Alvin, the dac is excellent.  I love it and have no complaints but that issue with both outputs being used simultaneously should be listed on the product page or at least in the manual.
> 
> I was getting severe distortion and wasted time thinking it was an issue with one of my cables.
> 
> Its not an issue for me as long I know about it but it may be a dealbreaker for some people.



Is the issue while using both outputs or only when both are connected?

My cxn v2 has XLR and RCA outs and I both connected and I'm able to use both without distortion


----------



## Mozbach

GoldenOne said:


> I've posted a review of the Ares 2 here:
> 
> 
> It's a great DAC for the money, though it's not actually a NOS dac



and now that you have done all 3 reviews (Ares II, Bifrost 2 and Chord), u MUST do a comparative review.. plenty of ppl out there wud want to hear your take on it. Saying BF2 is fun flavour (while its labelled Mini Yggy) is all good, but compared to the Ares II, how would you differentiate the 2? Reason i ask is that while you say ARES II is resolving, there are more reviews that say BF2 is more detailed, albeit laid back. 

wud be great if you or FMs can draw a comparative (other than whats already out there from Midfiguy, Cheapaudioman, etc.)

Cheers!!


----------



## sajunky

Mansinthe86 said:


> Is the issue while using both outputs or only when both are connected?
> 
> My cxn v2 has XLR and RCA outs and I both connected and I'm able to use both without distortion


Once you have both plugs in place there is a technical problem. I would follow official advice and connect only one a time, even I can't hear distortions.


----------



## john57

dougms3 said:


> Alvin, the dac is excellent.  I love it and have no complaints but that issue with both outputs being used simultaneously should be listed on the product page or at least in the manual.
> 
> I was getting severe distortion and wasted time thinking it was an issue with one of my cables.
> 
> Its not an issue for me as long I know about it but it may be a dealbreaker for some people.


It is listed in the manual. 

"(3) Analog Audio Signal Output Balanced output via XLR (pin2 hot), singled ended output via RCA. The Ares II is a true balanced DAC, we recommend using balanced output whenever possible. The RCA and XLR output are shared, please use either of the output at a time. It is not recommended to use both RCA and XLR output simultaneously"

I have the Topping D90 in addition, and it does not like to drive both outputs even when there is setting on the unit to drive both.


----------



## GoldenOne

Mozbach said:


> and now that you have done all 3 reviews (Ares II, Bifrost 2 and Chord), u MUST do a comparative review.. plenty of ppl out there wud want to hear your take on it. Saying BF2 is fun flavour (while its labelled Mini Yggy) is all good, but compared to the Ares II, how would you differentiate the 2? Reason i ask is that while you say ARES II is resolving, there are more reviews that say BF2 is more detailed, albeit laid back.
> 
> wud be great if you or FMs can draw a comparative (other than whats already out there from Midfiguy, Cheapaudioman, etc.)
> 
> Cheers!!


Unfortunately I can't really do this unless I have all three here with me. These DACs aren't mine personally, they were borrowed from friends and viewers, so they go back once the video is done.


----------



## dougms3

john57 said:


> It is listed in the manual.
> 
> "(3) Analog Audio Signal Output Balanced output via XLR (pin2 hot), singled ended output via RCA. The Ares II is a true balanced DAC, we recommend using balanced output whenever possible. The RCA and XLR output are shared, please use either of the output at a time. It is not recommended to use both RCA and XLR output simultaneously"
> 
> I have the Topping D90 in addition, and it does not like to drive both outputs even when there is setting on the unit to drive both.


Theres a big difference between saying its "not recommended" and it causes "severe distortion".

Kind of like the difference between, John does not like peanuts and John is severely allergic to peanuts.

In any case, now its transparent what happens when having both outputs connected simultaneously.


----------



## sajunky

dougms3 said:


> Theres a big difference between saying its "not recommended" and it causes "severe distortion".


I don't think it matters. You invest $700 in a DAC, you should be aware of a passive I/V conversion limitation before purchasing.


----------



## dougms3 (Sep 18, 2021)

sajunky said:


> I don't think it matters. You invest $700 in a DAC, you should be aware of a passive I/V conversion limitation before purchasing.


It doesn't really matter to me because I don't really use the SE output but how is anyone supposed to be aware of this prior to purchasing?

Considering how many reviews there are of the dac, I don't see any mention of what happens when you connect both outputs.

Its $814 now.


----------



## Mozbach

GoldenOne said:


> Unfortunately I can't really do this unless I have all three here with me. These DACs aren't mine personally, they were borrowed from friends and viewers, so they go back once the video is done.


Thats understandable. quoting from memory isn't accurate..thanks


----------



## GoldenOne

Mozbach said:


> Thats understandable. quoting from memory isn't accurate..thanks


Yep. I'm quite happy to compare general sound signature differences but often things like outright resolution can be extremely unreliable to compare from memory so I prefer not to do so.


----------



## Mozbach (Sep 18, 2021)

GoldenOne said:


> Yep. I'm quite happy to compare general sound signature differences but often things like outright resolution can be extremely unreliable to compare from memory so I prefer not to do so.


Yes.. agreed.. Iv been trying to chase tonality, timbre focused sound signature that gives a 3d, holographic, deep sounstage with layering and seperation..while natural heft at bottom end.
Whats confusing me is whether the Ares; compared to the bifrost, comprises that reasonable bottom end to gain spacious/airy textural sound?

Also What would be good SS head amp pairing under $300, if one steers away thx or warm amps like asgard3 (video said singxer may make things too warm)? Which amps retain the depth and staging from the dac? 

And again, this is really an open question for all who can offer a 'best guess' opinion


----------



## sajunky

dougms3 said:


> It doesn't really matter to me because I don't really use the SE output but how is anyone supposed to be aware of this prior to purchasing?
> 
> Considering how many reviews there are of the dac, I don't see any mention of what happens when you connect both outputs.
> 
> Its $814 now.


It is in the manual, isn't? I am sorry, but you tried to argue about introducing distortions.
Ignorancy is not an excuse.


----------



## sajunky

Mozbach said:


> Also What would be good SS head amp pairing under $300, if one steers away thx or warm amps like asgard3 (video said singxer may make things too warm)? Which amps retain the depth and staging from the dac?


Zero feedback class A, try this - entry level $315.


----------



## dougms3

sajunky said:


> It is in the manual, isn't? I am sorry, but you tried to argue about introducing distortions.
> *Ignorancy is not an excuse.*


No its not in the manual that having both outputs connected causes distortion.  

Theres a churched up version of that which includes the word recommended.

It is recommended to cover your bases in english when spitting out those type of words.

Ignorancy Ignorance is not an excuse.


----------



## sajunky

dougms3 said:


> No its not in the manual that having both outputs connected causes distortion.


For most of people it is sufficient if says that it is not recommended. I would recommend better DAC in this price range that do not have this limitation... maybe I would....


----------



## GoldenOne

Mozbach said:


> Yes.. agreed.. Iv been trying to chase tonality, timbre focused sound signature that gives a 3d, holographic, deep sounstage with layering and seperation..while natural heft at bottom end.
> Whats confusing me is whether the Ares; compared to the bifrost, comprises that reasonable bottom end to gain spacious/airy textural sound?
> 
> Also What would be good SS head amp pairing under $300, if one steers away thx or warm amps like asgard3 (video said singxer may make things too warm)? Which amps retain the depth and staging from the dac?
> ...


If you can stretch to an SA-1 I'd highly recommend it. It's an excellent amp.


----------



## Mozbach (Sep 20, 2021)

GoldenOne said:


> If you can stretch to an SA-1 I'd highly recommend it. It's an excellent amp.


Thanks for replying, and the valueable suggestion. But I'm looking for a lower investment for now..Planning to use Sundara and hd6xx for now, saving the difference for hp upgrade.

Would Magni3± or Asgard 3 suffice? Appreciate the tip 😁


----------



## JaquesGelee (Sep 21, 2021)

Mozbach said:


> Thanks for replying, and the valueable suggestion. But I'm looking for a lower investment for now..Planning to use Sundara and hd6xx for now, saving the difference for hp upgrade.
> 
> Would Magni3± or Asgard 3 suffice? Appreciate the tip 😁


It´s your choice and your money, but you still have some solid cans. Definetly think about stretching for a future invest to the SA-1.  
Couldn´t say something about Schiit Products.


----------



## sajunky

JaquesGelee said:


> 1.
> Couldn´t say something about Schiit Products.


I can say something about SA-1. It is another example of dual-sealed SMPS with ground loops leaking to your system.


----------



## GoldenOne

sajunky said:


> I can say something about SA-1. It is another example of dual-sealed SMPS with ground loops leaking to your system.


That's not how ground loops work. 
Whether your PSU is SMPS or LPS will not have any effect on a ground loop.


----------



## sajunky (Sep 21, 2021)

GoldenOne said:


> That's not how ground loops work.
> Whether your PSU is SMPS or LPS will not have any effect on a ground loop.


I know it was your choice, it means you are not a person able to assess technical problem with such dual SMPS configuration. Very bad for a person putting his hands on such equipment like APxxx analyzer.

It is a similar design fault as in Topping A90. In result, this amp has unusable (noisy) single ended inputs and ground loops come out polluting all devices in a chain. A reason for this you should know, there is no single grounding point in this device. Fundamental design quidelines are seriously violated.

For all others, *it is not about SMPS vs. LPS*, as the uninformed is trying assess the matter. It is about dual SMPS, identical sealed units, each one having an internal safety grounding point wired to its own negative rail. Now Topping/Singxer designers connect these two units in series for creating (+),  GND and  (-) power rails.  Problem is created at this moment, as one safety grounding point is placed (as expected) on a system ground, but the other one end up on the minus power rail.


----------



## GoldenOne

sajunky said:


> I know it was your choice, it means you are not a person able to assess technical problem with such dual SMPS configuration. Very bad for a person putting his hands on such equipment like APxxx analyzer.
> 
> It is a similar design fault as in Topping A90. In result, this amp has unusable (noisy) single ended inputs and ground loops come out polluting all devices in a chain. A reason for this you should know, there is no single grounding point in this device. Fundamental design quidelines are seriously violated.
> 
> For all others, *it is not about SMPS vs. LPS*, as the uninformed is trying assess the matter. It is about dual SMPS, identical sealed units, each one having an internal safety grounding point wired to its own negative rail. Now Topping/Singxer designers connect these two units in series for creating (+),  GND and  (-) power rails.  Problem is created at this moment, as one safety grounding point is placed (as expected) on a system ground, but the other one end up on the minus power rail.


I'm not sure what you mean by 'my choice'? I don't own an SA-1 if that's what you're implying.

A ground loop is a setup fault, not a fault of a specific device....
There are various performance aspects that can be influenced by different grounding methods but your implication that the SA1 has a problem either with ground loops or PSU noise generally is simply untrue.

I'd very much appreciate it if you didn't immediately resort to rude terms such as 'uninformed'


----------



## sajunky

GoldenOne said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by 'my choice'? I don't own an SA-1 if that's what you're implying.


If it is your way to deal with embarassment, fine. But remember that in this post you have recommended a device ignoring single grounding point design rule.


----------



## GoldenOne

sajunky said:


> If it is your way to deal with embarassment, fine. But remember that in this post you have recommended a device ignoring single grounding point design rule.


Would be great if you could show some proof of what you're claiming.

You seem to have a habit of claiming the existence of flaws in designs then refusing to demonstrate them even when all other evidence contradicts what you've said.


----------



## Mr BubbaHyde

Damn, and all I wanted to do was enjoy music on a good DAC and HPA! I so love these posts that tear down a product because of A,B, or C and yet say nothing about SQ.

Thankfully I've had a chance to listen to the SA-1 and didn't hear any off that 1.21 Jigawatts of stuff going on, I'll be ordering one shortly, unless of course someone can recommend another amp that doesn't cost over what the SA-1 Costs and sounds as good!

I'm waiting...😂😂😂

Cheers!!


----------



## GoldenOne

Mr BubbaHyde said:


> Damn, and all I wanted to do was enjoy music on a good DAC and HPA! I so love these posts that tear down a product because of A,B, or C and yet say nothing about SQ.
> 
> Thankfully I've had a chance to listen to the SA-1 and didn't hear any off that 1.21 Jigawatts of stuff going on, I'll be ordering one shortly, unless of course someone can recommend another amp that doesn't cost over what the SA-1 Costs and sounds as good!
> 
> ...


Sa-1 sounds excellent. You won't be disappointed


----------



## sajunky

GoldenOne said:


> Would be great if you could show some proof of what you're claiming.
> 
> You seem to have a habit of claiming the existence of flaws in designs then refusing to demonstrate them even when all other evidence contradicts what you've said.


Your initial understanding about problem was use of SMPS instead LPS.  Now it is corrected, right? I didn't see any acknowledge that you was wrong. But you was wrong, a proof is above. To discuss this matter, speak to any designer with 30 years practice, you will be well informed. There are many years of experience (of many) dictating to use a single grounding point of a power supply. It is written in every design guide. Evidence? Evidence of Topping A90 pristine clean measurements, but user experience? A noisy (frequently unusable) single ended inputs, varying intensity from user to user, but problem is burried inherently in the design .


----------



## simon740

This is Ares II treat.....


----------



## Mr BubbaHyde

GoldenOne said:


> Sa-1 sounds excellent. You won't be disappointed


I know ...🤣🤣🤣


----------



## JaquesGelee

simon740 said:


> This is Ares II treat.....


And a few people talking about a hpa to pair with it!? 🤷🏼‍♂️


----------



## Mr BubbaHyde

What a beautiful day today is! Pouring rain and look what showed up a day early!! Thank you So much @alvin1118 for the fantastic service!!






Cheers!!


----------



## dougms3

Mr BubbaHyde said:


> What a beautiful day today is! Pouring rain and look what showed up a day early!! Thank you So much @alvin1118 for the fantastic service!!
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers!!


What are your impressions vs all the other dacs in your sig?


----------



## Mr BubbaHyde

dougms3 said:


> What are your impressions vs all the other dacs in your sig?


I am only a little bit into the Ares, but so far.... I'm not seeing any great need to keep anything else around,  🤣 

But it is early and I listen to so many different things, That it's way to premature to say this is the be all and end all for me.

Cheers!!


----------



## dougms3

Mr BubbaHyde said:


> I am only a little bit into the Ares, but so far.... I'm not seeing any great need to keep anything else around,  🤣
> 
> But it is early and I listen to so many different things, That it's way to premature to say this is the be all and end all for me.
> 
> Cheers!!


Well once you've had some time with it, I'd like to hear your impressions vs the other dacs in particular the modius.

Thanks.


----------



## joseG86

xllms said:


> A curious observer here looking to replace existing headphone system DAC (Topping d10s) to pair with the Kinki Studio THR-1. Just wondering if anyone has any thoughts of experience to share about this combination (THR-1 & Ares II)?


THR-1 and Ares II is an awesome experience, you can listen for hours and hours without any fatigue. Details, space, air, defined bass and not crispy trebble, very recommended.

I had the Ares II and was amazing with THR-1


----------



## Mozbach (Sep 26, 2021)

This is a biased take, read along with that in mind. Been using the mimbyv2 for over last 10 months, wanting to sample r2r magic. Loved the mimby for what it does, coming from both AKM and DS dac before it. Bifrost2 was my first choice given the shining recommendations its got everywhere. About 2 months went by and i had to really think hard on the choice between the 2, keeping my listening choices in mind.

@GoldenOne nailed the reviews of both, accurately providing descriptions of what these dacs do. Finally pulled the trigger on the Ares2 a week back to try a non-schiit house sounding R2R dac.

100 plus hours of break in..dac went through its motions, and it gets better everyday.. So far in, I'm floored, sold, hook line and sinker..!!

What an r2r gem, mind blowingly fantastic dac!! In a properly set up 2 channel stereo system, this dac completely transforms your listening experience. That surreal sense of holography in music is presented so beautifully and accurately, much like a vinyl rig. If you want to connect with the music at a deeper level than just your ears, this is the one for it. So you like tube sound, this is a must have non tube alternate.

Its ability to project an open wide stage, superb imaging and seperation, deep tight bass, light airy treble and absolutely euphonic midrange really makes this absolutely worth the price. One of the best features is its ability to throw a deep sounstage with good space around instruments. It may sound clichéd, but i hear details i dint hear before especially the quiter parts of a song. Everything in the song has its distinct place and it doesn't sound like it's a playback of a song. You hear it all around you like it's real, in the room with subtle aspects presented in the right measure. There is ample layering, no sound overlapping another, and with all the details intact, i. e. quite resolving. It really opens up an endless space both deep and wide, which makes complex tracks with multiple instrumental arrangements a joy to listen to. Tracks like Four seasons recomposed (NDR philharmonic), Jazz variants (Ozone Percussion Group) are delivered with sublime presence, resolution and soundscape. Speed and attack are great, with just the right measure of snap, especially paired with planars like Hifiman Sundara or forward sounding speakers. Another trick ups is sleeve is reverb and brings out sense of space, makes live recordings very real.. The imaging is brilliant in terms of size, scale and positioning accuracy. Timbre, tonality is spot on which makes jazz, vocals, violins, acoustic an absolute pleasure with the HD650/6XX pairing. The SS is 'euphonic' and natural (looking at you @Relaxasaurus), just the way music should sound.

Compared with multibit dacs, this has accurate bass but has lesser punch/bloom/bulk in bass. Bass drums dont have that chesty impact that one gets from the multibit dacs, though that difference is subtle and mostly evident on bass light headphones. While that may sound like a sacrifice, Ares II is definitely better at everything else. If you are a bass head, get the Multibit R2R.

If you are chasing intimate natural sound, accurate timber, tonality, exceptional presence and reverb, fantastic resolution and treble (without sounding metallic/crispy/sharp like DS dacs), this dac can as well be your end game for a long time to come.

Yes this is very close to analog sound. Now who doesn't want a vinyl like records library of +65 million songs collection (using Tidal)? Do you enjoy hours and hours of musical engagement thats not a hyper detailed, in your face wall of sound? Does music move you within? If yes, you won't regret getting an ares2.

This is a keeper and im going to be very satisfied for a very very long time. Just ensure you set up your rig properly to really extract what this dac has to offer and you will be delighted every time you press that play button!!


----------



## tmac17

I'm looking fwd to hearing the ares 2. Have had the Topping d70s for awhile now. Should have the ares 2 in my system next weekend. Looking fwd to my 1st dac comparison. I love all music including techno/hip hop but considering I have 2 systems...both with bookshelf speakers(Focal Aris 906 and Acoustics Energy Ae1 actives)...both aren't focused on bass so found no need to try and get them to do what they weren't designed to do. So..decided on Ares 2 over the bitfrost and Gumby. I had the modius before the Topping d70s and the d70s is much more enjoyable to listen to in my 2ch set up with the focals.


----------



## ssmith3046 (Sep 27, 2021)

I have several entry level DACs with the Schiit Modi multibit getting the most use.  I've always really liked this little DAC but I'm thinking about spending more an a DAC now, a DAC that'll be the last one I buy.  I'm retired so I won't be spending five thousand dollars on a DAC.  I listen to CDs using an Audiolab transport so there will be no streaming.  I've been very happy with all the Schiit gear that I have owned and currently own.  I'm currently thinking about the Bifrost 2 or the Ares II.  I need read up on the Ares II and go back through this thread.  I'm currently using an Asgard 3 amp and Focal Clear Pro headphones.


----------



## Mozbach

I just did a take on my new Ares2, coming from a mimby. Rehashing my limited understanding having used both.. Just scroll back 2-3 posts earlier


cheers


----------



## Mozbach

ssmith3046 said:


> I have several entry level DACs with the Schiit Modi multibit getting the most use.  I've always really liked this little DAC but I'm thinking about spending more an a DAC now, a DAC that'll be the last one I buy.  I'm retired so I won't be spending five thousand dollars on a DAC.  I listen to CDs using an Audiolab transport so there will be no streaming.  I've been very happy with all the Schiit gear that I have owned and currently own.  I'm currently thinking about the Bifrost 2 or the Ares II.  I need read up on the Ares II and go back through this thread.  I'm currently using an Asgard 3 amp and Focal Clear Pro headphones.


ur pretty much sorted on the headphones and amp side 😎


----------



## Mr BubbaHyde

ssmith3046 said:


> I have several entry level DACs with the Schiit Modi multibit getting the most use.  I've always really liked this little DAC but I'm thinking about spending more an a DAC now, a DAC that'll be the last one I buy.  I'm retired so I won't be spending five thousand dollars on a DAC.  I listen to CDs using an Audiolab transport so there will be no streaming.  I've been very happy with all the Schiit gear that I have owned and currently own.  I'm currently thinking about the Bifrost 2 or the Ares II.  I need read up on the Ares II and go back through this thread.  I'm currently using an Asgard 3 amp and Focal Clear Pro headphones.


I have to tell you that the audiolab and the Ares via Spdif is hands down the best damn thing i've heard in a long time, I hooked up my transport the 2nd day I had the Ares and there is absolutely no going back, I do not have the Asgard, not yet anyway just the THX789, but I cannot tell you how good it is thru that and also any of my speakers sets I've tried even my JBL studio monitors love this combo!!

Hope that's helpful to you!

Cheers!!


----------



## ssmith3046 (Sep 27, 2021)

Mozbach said:


> I just did a take on my new Ares2, coming from a mimby. Rehashing my limited understanding having used both.. Just scroll back 2-3 posts earlier
> 
> 
> cheers


I think you just might like the Ares. One reason I was leaning towards the Bifrost 2 is that it ships from California and I live one state over.  These ship ftom Singapore I think.  Any issues?


----------



## ssmith3046

Mr BubbaHyde said:


> I have to tell you that the audiolab and the Ares via Spdif is hands down the best damn thing i've heard in a long time, I hooked up my transport the 2nd day I had the Ares and there is absolutely no going back, I do not have the Asgard, not yet anyway just the THX789, but I cannot tell you how good it is thru that and also any of my speakers sets I've tried even my JBL studio monitors love this combo!!
> 
> Hope that's helpful to you!
> 
> Cheers!!


Very helpful.  Thanks!


----------



## kingoftown1

No problems at all with Denafrips shipping to the US.  Quick shipping with Fedex, and they Fedex-proof the box.


----------



## ssmith3046

kingoftown1 said:


> No problems at all with Denafrips shipping to the US.  Quick shipping with Fedex, and they Fedex-proof the box.


Thank you, good to know.  Is there a switch to choose US voltage?  You can tell that I need to read up on the Ares.


----------



## Mozbach

ssmith3046 said:


> I think you just might like the Ares. One reason I was leaning towards the Bifrost 2 is that it ships from California and I live one state over.  These ship ftom Singapore I think.  Any issues?


Yes..i do love it

Reg. issues - Alvin is well known for his promptness in any 'unlikely' times you do land up with any issue. I haven't come across any reported hassles by ppl who got it from sgpr.. and these units have gone to pretty far flung areas..stateside shouldn't be a problem..


----------



## Mozbach

ssmith3046 said:


> Is there a switch to choose US voltage?


Yes.. flush at the bottom.. Basically you and this go together anywhere where there is electricity!


----------



## ssmith3046

Thanks to all.  I'll definitely read up on the Ares and follow up with more reviews.


----------



## dougms3

ssmith3046 said:


> I think you just might like the Ares. One reason I was leaning towards the Bifrost 2 is that it ships from California and I live one state over.  These ship ftom Singapore I think.  Any issues?


Mine arrived in NJ literally 2 days after it shipped.


----------



## Mozbach

Is anyone here finding the spdif input better/clearer/wider than the usb input?


----------



## simon740 (Sep 29, 2021)

Mozbach said:


> Is anyone here finding the spdif input better/clearer/wider than the usb input?


I think that usb is better. More live sound. Fresh... But maybe because Node SPDIF out. When I try Ian Canada streamer with BNC out to Ares coax input ...this was very good. But we all hear different

regards,
Simon


----------



## Mr BubbaHyde

Mozbach said:


> Is anyone here finding the spdif input better/clearer/wider than the usb input?


Right now I prefer the Spdif, but it's very early in my Ares Time and this for me, is a bit unusual. I am testing a DDC at this moment, so that could be the reason why...


----------



## simon740

Mr BubbaHyde said:


> Right now I prefer the Spdif, but it's very early in my Ares Time and this for me, is a bit unusual. I am testing a DDC at this moment, so that could be the reason why...


Yes maybe because of DDC. Which one ?


----------



## Mr BubbaHyde

simon740 said:


> Yes maybe because of DDC. Which one ?


The overly expensive Douk U2 Pro! 😂😂😂


----------



## Mozbach (Sep 29, 2021)

simon740 said:


> I think that usb is better. More live sound. Fresh... But maybe because Node SPDIF out. When I try Ian Canada streamer with BNC out to Ares coax input ...this was very good. But we all hear different
> 
> regards,
> Simon


Yes even i find usb to be more resolving and crisp. but the spdif seems to sound more relaxed, warmer and open.. depth is better with usb..
using allo digione as spdif source and mac air for usb..

Interesting... thanks Simon


----------



## simon740

Mozbach said:


> Yes even i find usb to be more resolving and crisp. but the spdif seems to sound more relaxed, warmer and open.. depth is better with usb..
> using allo digione as spdif source and mac air for usb..
> 
> Interesting... thanks Simon


Thanks to you

Simon


----------



## PopZeus

Recently switched my Ares 2 (connected to my desktop Mac) from USB to coax via a pretty basic DDC and even then the improvement was noticeable. If you're looking for a bump in quality from the Ares and don't wanna shell out over 2x the cost for something like the Pontus, a solid DDC can definitely deliver as long as you're not expecting completely transformational sound quality.


----------



## dougms3

PopZeus said:


> Recently switched my Ares 2 (connected to my desktop Mac) from USB to coax via a pretty basic DDC and even then the improvement was noticeable. If you're looking for a bump in quality from the Ares and don't wanna shell out over 2x the cost for something like the Pontus, a solid DDC can definitely deliver as long as you're not expecting completely transformational sound quality.


Which one did you get?


----------



## PopZeus

dougms3 said:


> Which one did you get?


Singxer F-1. They describe it as a digital interface board in an aluminum case, which seems pretty accurate. Not much more than a box slightly bigger than a wall wart with two ports and an LED, but I like that it can hang out behind my stack, not as a part of it.


----------



## tmac17 (Sep 30, 2021)

Hope no one minds...jumping in here...183 pages deep I'm not sure if this has been asked yet...

But in regards to pairing the Ares II with a pre amp. I went ahead and ordered the Freya +. Wasn't until after I ordered it...I see it's input impedance is only 10k ohm. I didn't think to look at that because I've never owned a pre amp with that low of a input impedance. I've  been told to try and stick to the 10 to 1 ratio for impedance matching but never paid it much mind since it's never been an issue with any piece of gear I've had. Just wondering what am I to expect with the ARES II (2.4k XLR) paired with the Freya + via XLR? Should I just leave the Freya in the box and send it right back lol? Not sure what kind of problems, if any, to expect.


----------



## dougms3

tmac17 said:


> Hope no one minds...jumping in here...183 pages deep I'm not sure if this has been asked yet...
> 
> But in regards to pairing the Ares II with a pre amp. I went ahead and ordered the Freya +. Wasn't until after I ordered it...I see it's input impedance is only 10k ohm. I didn't think to look at that because I've never owned a pre amp with that low of a input impedance. I've  been told to try and stick to the 10 to 1 ratio for impedance matching but never paid it much mind since it's never been an issue with any piece of gear I've had. Just wondering what am I to expect with the ARES II (2.4k XLR) paired with the Freya + via XLR? Should I just leave the Freya in the box and send it right back lol? Not sure what kind of problems, if any, to expect.


Well, at this point, you're already in for the restocking fee and shipping fee both ways.  Might as well try it out and see how it sounds.

Does anyone know what type of fuse the Ares II uses? Is it a 5mm x 20mm ? slow or fast?


----------



## Lolito

Mr BubbaHyde said:


> The overly expensive Douk U2 Pro! 😂😂😂


what kinda clock has that one?


----------



## sajunky

dougms3 said:


> Does anyone know what type of fuse the Ares II uses? Is it a 5mm x 20mm ? slow or fast?


Audiophile fuse syndrome only affect Pegasus users.


----------



## JaquesGelee

PopZeus said:


> Singxer F-1. They describe it as a digital interface board in an aluminum case, which seems pretty accurate. Not much more than a box slightly bigger than a wall wart with two ports and an LED, but I like that it can hang out behind my stack, not as a part of it.


Could i may ask for what another conversion?


----------



## PopZeus

JaquesGelee said:


> Could i may ask for what another conversion?


Yeah, it converts the USB audio to SPDIF which, in the case of the Ares, is the input with the better sound quality. Also bypasses any driver issues the Ares could have with Mac OS X (if you own a Mac).


----------



## Mr BubbaHyde

PopZeus said:


> Yeah, it converts the USB audio to SPDIF which, in the case of the Ares, is the input with the better sound quality. Also bypasses any driver issues the Ares could have with Mac OS X (if you own a Mac).


Because I don't know, and I am a Mac user, could I have a quick n dirty version of the "Mac OS" issues?

I haven't had any so far so I'm curious! Thanks!


----------



## Mozbach (Oct 1, 2021)

Mr BubbaHyde said:


> Because I don't know, and I am a Mac user, could I have a quick n dirty version of the "Mac OS" issues?
> 
> I haven't had any so far so I'm curious! Thanks!


Am using it with Mac Mojave without any issues..Later versions have some reported pops and clicks issues with mac.. Spoke with Alvin, its suggested to update the usb firmware to iron out any niggles..though a Windows pc will be req. to do so.. 

m also using allo digione signature.. find the usb slightly more forward and sparkly with slightly deeper sounstage on my stereo system.. SPDIF sounds hair more warmer and less fatiguing to my ears. On headphones, the difference is less apparent.. YMMV
cheers


----------



## Mr BubbaHyde

Mozbach said:


> Am using it with Mac Mojave without any issues..Later versions have some reported pops and clicks issues with mac.. Spoke with Alvin, its suggested to update the usb firmware to iron out any niggles..though a Windows pc will be req. to do so..
> 
> m also using allo digione signature.. find the usb slightly more forward and sparkly with slightly deeper sounstage on my stereo system.. SPDIF sounds hair more warmer and less fatiguing to my ears. On headphones, the difference is less apparent.. YMMV
> cheers


I am using it on a Big Sur M1 Mac Mini and I have not heard anything like that to speak of. I think I prefer the Spdif/Coaxial in as well, over the USB. I have used it so far with my iFi Zen Stream, and also with the Ridiculously priced Douk U2 pro as a DDC, both have been stellar for me.

I also find the USB to be a bit Sparkly, but it doesn't bother me as I am older and 40 years of being On stage has taken some of my upper hearing anyway!! 🤣 

Cheers!!


----------



## PopZeus

Mr BubbaHyde said:


> Because I don't know, and I am a Mac user, could I have a quick n dirty version of the "Mac OS" issues?
> 
> I haven't had any so far so I'm curious! Thanks!


There was a problem with startup sometimes when the Ares 2 was directly connected to a Mac via USB. Connecting via a hub seemed to clear it up for me. I don’t know anything more than that since I switched to the DDC.


----------



## JaquesGelee (Oct 3, 2021)

PopZeus said:


> Yeah, it converts the USB audio to SPDIF which, in the case of the Ares, is the input with the better sound quality. Also bypasses any driver issues the Ares could have with Mac OS X (if you own a Mac).


Thank you. The last aspect sounds interesting. That's what i try to solve actually! Mac to Ares II to Singxer SA-1.

Got some helpful tips in the other group too and try to solve it, when time is available.


Cheers


----------



## Narcissus

dougms3 said:


> Built my first cable for the Ares II.  Its a thick boy furutech fp-s55n with fi-46 gold iec and plug.


Any specific reason you went with such a thick cable on this Dac. I’m planning to use it for my Class A Pass monoblocks.


----------



## Narcissus

Hey Guys, Got an Ares II recently. What is the consensus on the following 

1. Is USB the best input for this DAC.
2. Is singxer F1 DDC worth hooking up with the AresII.
3. RPI4 with tweaks, Pi2AES, Zen Stream etc, which one should I get?

Not sure, but one of the YT reviews (probably, The British Audiophile) stressed on using a good quality power cable for this DAC, true?


----------



## Mozbach

Narcissus said:


> Hey Guys, Got an Ares II recently. What is the consensus on the following
> 
> 1. Is USB the best input for this DAC.
> 2. Is singxer F1 DDC worth hooking up with the AresII.
> ...


my 2 cents.. it depends on your chain alot..

reg power - if u dont have humming and ground loops, the inbuilt power supply is very very good right from the manufacturer and u may or may not get significant improvements

Reg USB input (from Mac Air), it seems to have slightly more textured bass, top end sparkle, cleaniness/HF air, soundstage is a hair better and overall good for focused/intentful listening..  Im also using SPDIF feeding my Ares 2 with an allo digione + nirvana smps + 75 ohms spdif mogami and mogani gold RCA interconnects all the way to the amp. With the spdif, the sound is definitely more musical, smooth and less etched, making it a slightly more enjoyable listen for long sessions. I keep alternating between the 2 depending on the genre and mood..

Singxer SPDIF is super clean and will make an improvement for sure.. however Goldenone mentioned in his video that since the ARES 2 has internal buffering and clocks, better source gear upstream may not make a substantial change.. If u can afford to feed it with a better source, why not... that leaves any scope for doubt!

If it were to me, id prolly start with an Pi2AES or allo digione signature/US Bridge for these may not be quite expensive and go from there.. Pi2AES is a fantastic device for what it does, but digiones arent far behind.. 

Do share your experience once uv settled in with the chain..doesnt hurt to get wiser from people's learnings

cheers


----------



## dougms3

Narcissus said:


> Any specific reason you went with such a thick cable on this Dac. I’m planning to use it for my Class A Pass monoblocks.


Was trying to make my system a little warmer.  It turns out the cable synergizes better with my amp.

In retrospect I would have gone with the 12 awg because the manufacturer recommends 800 hours of burn in on this cable   and it difficult to work with, very stiff.


----------



## sajunky

Mozbach said:


> Singxer SPDIF is super clean and will make an improvement for sure.. however Goldenone mentioned in his video that since the ARES 2 has internal buffering and clocks, better source gear upstream may not make a substantial change.


I completely disagree. Any DAC without galvanic isolator on the USB port (like Ares) will benefit from ground loop redirecting device. Not talking about jitter removal devices (it is a market bull), but a real ground redirector having its own power supply. Especially important when a source is PC or laptop. It can be such simple device like iDefender, self powered USB 2.0 hub or a converter like this. You probably spend more money on cables.


----------



## Mozbach

sajunky said:


> I completely disagree. Any DAC without galvanic isolator on the USB port (like Ares) will benefit from ground loop redirecting device. Not talking about jitter removal devices (it is a market bull), but a real ground redirector having its own power supply. Especially important when a source is PC or laptop. It can be such simple device like iDefender, self powered USB 2.0 hub or a converter like this. You probably spend more money on cables.


ok so i understand what you said above usb signal routed through a good powered usb hub shud have benefits? Hmm worth a try!! 

Guess thats why SPDIF is better?


----------



## sajunky (Oct 5, 2021)

Mozbach said:


> ok so i understand what you said above usb signal routed through a good powered usb hub shud have benefits? Hmm worth a try!!
> 
> Guess thats why SPDIF is better?


It is surprising that with all benefits of asynchronous data delivery, USB frequently falls short against S/PDIF. The later has isolation transformers, better or worse, but there is something at least. USB requires a galvanic connection, however simple tricks redirecting ground loops can reverse this situation and keep a DAC clean from external noise. You can try, it doesn't cost much. As PC source is becoming a common data source and is responsible as a major source of ground loops, it is why DDC becomes a popular these days. A real DDC has a galvanic isolator on the USB port. it fixes many problems.


----------



## PopZeus

I don't know the technical aspects but SPDIF usually sounds better than USB. One was designed specifically for digital audio, and one wasn't. Obviously implementation matters, which is why Schiit claims their Unison USB sounds better than coax, but most have not bothered to invest a lot into USB audio when SPDIF exists right there and is widely adopted. I'm not sure why the F-1 sounds so good with the Ares 2, but it does.


----------



## simon740

I wasn’t happy with the Node 2021 + Ares II combination. Via spdif connection. Maybe that was Node's fault. Because for example the combination of Ian Canada streamer + Ares II via spdif sounded much better. But I still find the LG V40 + Ares II a better combination via a usb connection. Of course, this is not the most practical, nor optimal. I will probably try another combination with Ifi Zen Stream.
But it also depends on the whole system. And we hear differently.

regards,
Simon


----------



## Kromen

Definitely a ddc helps, at least on my case a noise gaming pc, adding an  x-spdif 2 to the chain improves ares 2 a lot, the downside is it is expensive, but I got it thinking on long term, no just because of Ares II.

Cheers


----------



## Mr BubbaHyde

Kromen said:


> Definitely a ddc helps, at least on my case a noise gaming pc, adding an  x-spdif 2 to the chain improves ares 2 a lot, the downside is it is expensive, but I got it thinking on long term, no just because of Ares II.
> 
> Cheers


Only expensive if you choose to make it that way...😂

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/dou...n-digital-signal.958462/page-11#post-16597874


----------



## PopZeus

simon740 said:


> I wasn’t happy with the Node 2021 + Ares II combination. Via spdif connection. Maybe that was Node's fault. Because for example the combination of Ian Canada streamer + Ares II via spdif sounded much better. But I still find the LG V40 + Ares II a better combination via a usb connection. Of course, this is not the most practical, nor optimal. I will probably try another combination with Ifi Zen Stream.
> But it also depends on the whole system. And we hear differently.
> 
> regards,
> Simon


I don't think the Node's coax output is that great. I get better audio quality when running optical cable from my TV into my DAC than I do the coax audio from the Node. I love everything else about the Node but it's taken me some time to reach that conclusion. My guess is the ifi Zen Stream has much better coax output than the Node, but can it do gapless?


----------



## Mr BubbaHyde

PopZeus said:


> I don't think the Node's coax output is that great. I get better audio quality when running optical cable from my TV into my DAC than I do the coax audio from the Node. I love everything else about the Node but it's taken me some time to reach that conclusion. My guess is the ifi Zen Stream has much better coax output than the Node, but can it do gapless?


Absolutely does!!


----------



## simon740 (Oct 11, 2021)

Ares II is very good dac  I warmly recommend it to anyone who doesn’t like hissing in music


----------



## alreadyused

Hey everyone i'm trying to confiigure mh new ARES II to use NOS mode. I followed the below directions from the Owners Manual but the OPT1 LED won't stay on so I guess it won't Stay in NOS? Any help would be greatly appreciated - Thanks!


Press the Mute button once to enter configuration mode
Press the OPT1 momentarily
  OPT1 LED On = NOS
  OPT1 LED Off = OS

Wait for 5s
Ares II back in operational mode


----------



## MatW

alreadyused said:


> Hey everyone i'm trying to confiigure mh new ARES II to use NOS mode. I followed the below directions from the Owners Manual but the OPT1 LED won't stay on so I guess it won't Stay in NOS? Any help would be greatly appreciated - Thanks!
> 
> 
> Press the Mute button once to enter configuration mode
> ...


It is normal for the light to go off after step 4. Otherwise it would indicate that the optical connection is being used even if it's not..


----------



## alreadyused

MatW said:


> It is normal for the light to go off after step 4. Otherwise it would indicate that the optical connection is being used even if it's not..


Ahhh...I see. Yeah, I was wondering about that. Thanks for the clarification. So there's no visible sign that it's in NOS mode?


----------



## MatW

alreadyused said:


> Ahhh...I see. Yeah, I was wondering about that. Thanks for the clarification. So there's no visible sign that it's in NOS mode?


No, not after step 4, during normal operation.


----------



## ssmith3046

I'm thinking about an AresII and I'm glad that I'm following this thread. I would have thought that the LED is supposed to stay on in NOS mode just from reading the above instructions.


----------



## xllms

simon740 said:


> Ares II is very good dac  I warmly recommend it to anyone who doesn’t like hissing in music


love this picture, Simon. The natural lights with the different light tones (grey concrete, timber, white and the warm grey timber flooring) and the plants simply make the whole space so relaxing and joyful. A great picture to describe the mood when engaging in this hobby. ☺️


----------



## simon740

xllms said:


> love this picture, Simon. The natural lights with the different light tones (grey concrete, timber, white and the warm grey timber flooring) and the plants simply make the whole space so relaxing and joyful. A great picture to describe the mood when engaging in this hobby. ☺️


Thank you


----------



## Mozbach

Noob question - please be gentle 😁


When using usb connection to DAC, im able set upsampling to 756 khz on MIDI SETUP window, while still using tidal on the mac.

When i play back music on the SPDIF from Allo Digione Signature, it usually shows sampling rates upto max of 88/96 khz 44/48 led on, 2x led on). Does that mean the signal over SPDIF isnt oversampled? 

How to enable it? im using moode audio where iv set sampling rate to 'Any'. Any other way to set upsampling? 

Tx


----------



## Lolito

Anybody here has experience updating the firmware of the ARES2? I am planing on upgrading mine, to make it mac compatible.


----------



## JaquesGelee

Lolito said:


> Anybody here has experience updating the firmware of the ARES2? I am planing on upgrading mine, to make it mac compatible.


For how long do you got the unit? I haven´t updated the firmware and i could use it with my mac with no issues.


----------



## viggen

daytrader said:


> Anybody else play with the Phase button on the Ares 2?  I read somewhere on here it comes factory set at negative phase.  Sure enough checked the manual and it does come set that way.  A push of the phase button reverses it to positive, so it’s easily changed.  My question is has anyone played with the phase and do you hear a difference?  Thanks.


using headphones now.  music sounds "right" after engaging phase.  thanks for the question.  i was not liking the ares until i engaged the phase button.


----------



## dougms3

viggen said:


> using headphones now.  music sounds "right" after engaging phase.  thanks for the question.  i was not liking the ares until i engaged the phase button.


Haha nice, it does sound a little better with the phase led on.


----------



## viggen

dougms3 said:


> Haha nice, it does sound a little better with the phase led on.


i don't know whether it sounds any different.  but, my brain/ears didn't like ares without phase engaged.  i was struggling to get into an enjoyment mode.  after engaging the phase button, i am 8 songs past where i told myself to get ready for bed.

i had ares 1 and musician pegasus and couldn't "dig" them. maybe i needed to  engage that phase button.  can't wait til my kid goes to daycare then i can use my speakers instead of headphones.


----------



## dougms3

viggen said:


> i don't know whether it sounds any different.  but, my brain/ears didn't like ares without phase engaged.  i was struggling to get into an enjoyment mode.  after engaging the phase button, i am 8 songs past where i told myself to get ready for bed.
> 
> i had ares 1 and musician pegasus and couldn't "dig" them. maybe i needed to  engage that phase button.  can't wait til my kid goes to daycare then i can use my speakers instead of headphones.


I think we are all in that same "8 songs past where I told myself I'd be in bed" boat.  Just wish it wasn't every damn night.

It sounds different to me, seems like theres something going on in the high end.  Not a huge difference but something is different.


----------



## tmac17

So u guys prefer the phase led to be lit up... and that's the negative phase?


----------



## simon740

Hello,

anyone use smartphone or DAP as a transport for Ares II dac? Because I had Node 2021, now I have Ifi Zen Stream, and I still prefer LG V40 as a transport for this amazing dac. 
Zen Stream is better than Node 2021 in SQ, but between Zen Stream and LG V40 I dont hear big difference in SQ. 
The only thing that bothers me is that I can’t manage UAPP remotely. So that the LG V40 would serve as a streamer and then manage the UAPP on it with another electronic device. Or is it possible?

regards,
Simon


----------



## Mozbach

simon740 said:


> Hello,
> 
> anyone use smartphone or DAP as a transport for Ares II dac? Because I had Node 2021, now I have Ifi Zen Stream, and I still prefer LG V40 as a transport for this amazing dac.
> Zen Stream is better than Node 2021 in SQ, but between Zen Stream and LG V40 I dont hear big difference in SQ.
> ...


u can try to make v40 as a upnp renderer plugged to the dac. For instance, you can use USB Audio Pro app and enable upnp on one of the devices. on another phone/device, you can play your streaming service and select the upnp renderer on device 1 as the device to stream to. it may not be the ideal solution but possible.


----------



## daytrader (Oct 22, 2021)

tmac17 said:


> So u guys prefer the phase led to be lit up... and that's the negative phase?


It‘s the red light that keeps them more happy! 😉


----------



## viggen (Oct 22, 2021)

tmac17 said:


> So u guys prefer the phase led to be lit up... and that's the negative phase?



refer to this:



> daytrader said:
> 
> Anybody else play with the Phase button on the Ares 2?  I read somewhere on here it comes factory set at negative phase.  Sure enough checked the manual and it does come set that way.  A push of the phase button reverses it to positive, so it’s easily changed.  My question is has anyone played with the phase and do you hear a difference?  Thanks.



Actually, after checking manual, I got suckered:



> Press the button to toggle Phase Output. Phase LED On: Negative Phase, Phase LED Off:
> Positive Phase



I guess I do prefer negative phase.


----------



## NehPets

simon740 said:


> Hello,
> 
> anyone use smartphone or DAP as a transport for Ares II dac? Because I had Node 2021, now I have Ifi Zen Stream, and I still prefer LG V40 as a transport for this amazing dac.
> Zen Stream is better than Node 2021 in SQ, but between Zen Stream and LG V40 I dont hear big difference in SQ.
> ...


I use QLS QA361 for S/PDIF & Shanling M2S for USB.


----------



## Mozbach (Oct 23, 2021)

anyone use smartphone or DAP as a transport for Ares II dac?


Yes using the one plus 7 and other android phones with USB C to USB A convertor and usb audio pro on bitperfect mode. Play back is OS and i can play dsd from the phone.. works like a charm


----------



## viggen (Oct 23, 2021)

dougms3 said:


> I think we are all in that same "8 songs past where I told myself I'd be in bed" boat.  Just wish it wasn't every damn night.
> 
> It sounds different to me, seems like theres something going on in the high end.  Not a huge difference but something is different.


got to use speakers instead of headphones and toggled the phase button back and forth... not sure whether this is the right word but intonation is different when phase is inverted.  sort of like listening to someone talking, when phase is inverted, the person speaks with better intonation.

best example i can give is, for native chinese speakers, each word has 4 tones and each tone has a different meaning.  and, when new chinese learners use the language, it comes off strange because their intonation is flat.  similarly, without phase inversion, i feel the dac's intonation is flat.


----------



## viggen (Oct 23, 2021)

Just finished reading this long thread...  I read a few who drew comparison to D90 and didn't fail to find Ares to walk all over it.  I didn't come to the same conclusion and think it's because of the source difference.  My D90 MQA  greatly benefits from  Matrix H Element PCIE card powered by LPSU. And, it's really hard to decide between D90 and Aresii.  Ares' sound is more seductive like drinking syrupy coke.  D90's sound is fast and palpable like drinking spring water.

I also have Singxer SU-2.  Neither D90 and Ares are benifitting when fed from SU-2.  And, the SU-2 I have is converted with Kitsune kit so it's powered by LPSU instead of AC.  This added a degree of warmth and roundness to the sound without which the sound can be too airy and bright.  In my system, Matrix feeding DAC directly sounds better than having Singxer DDC in the chain.

So, that's it?  Not quite.  To get Ares to equal D90 for my preference, I am using COAX input instead of USB.  Whereas, D90 is fed directly from Matrix Element H, Ares is fed by Element H -> Matrix X-SPDIF -> Ares.  Without the Matrix X-SPDIF in the Ares chain, it sounds less sweet hence making it easier to stick with D90.

Seriously pondering Pontus now... so I can get the best of both worlds... of, you know, coke and water.


----------



## Deleeh

viggen said:


> Just finished reading this long thread...  I read a few who drew comparison to D90 and didn't fail to find Ares to walk all over it.  I didn't come to the same conclusion and think it's because of the source difference.  My D90 MQA  greatly benefits from  Matrix H Element PCIE card powered by LPSU. And, it's really hard to decide between D90 and Aresii.  Ares' sound is more seductive like drinking syrupy coke.  D90's sound is fast and palpable like drinking spring water.
> 
> I also have Singxer SU-2.  Neither D90 and Ares are benifitting when fed from SU-2.  And, the SU-2 I have is converted with Kitsune kit so it's powered by LPSU instead of AC.  This added a degree of warmth and roundness to the sound without which the sound can be too airy and bright.  In my system, Matrix feeding DAC directly sounds better than having Singxer DDC in the chain.
> 
> ...


Hello,
Have you tried the following

Element H >>>>Singxer Su 2 via coax to the Ares ?
Many people here have said that the coax input on the Ares is better than the usb input.


I have personally come to the conclusion that the Su 2 tends to be unnecessary if the Dac has a good implementation.
And only the I2S connection is interesting in my opinion.

I find that although the Element H is technically good, it makes the sound seem a bit cooler.
These were my personal findings when I bought the Singxer Sda 2 and the Matrix card came later.
But one has also gained a lot.


On which amplifier did you listen to both Dacs?
Also remember that they are 2 different implementations in that respect and the D90 is equipped with the latest Akm chip.
And the Ares is a bit older in comparison and technically no longer the newest.


----------



## tmac17

viggen said:


> got to use speakers instead of headphones and toggled the phase button back and forth... not sure whether this is the right word but intonation is different when phase is inverted.  sort of like listening to someone talking, when phase is inverted, the person speaks with better intonation.
> 
> best example i can give is, for native chinese speakers, each word has 4 tones and each tone has a different meaning.  and, when new chinese learners use the language, it comes off strange because their intonation is flat.  similarly, without phase inversion, i feel the dac's intonation is flat.


To be clear for the non technical guys like myself... inverted means phase negative or positive?(LED on or off)


----------



## viggen (Oct 23, 2021)

Deleeh said:


> Hello,
> Have you tried the following
> 
> Element H >>>>Singxer Su 2 via coax to the Ares ?
> Many people here have said that the coax input on the Ares is better than the usb input.



Yes, that's the only way since Ares lack I2S and AES. 



Deleeh said:


> I have personally come to the conclusion that the Su 2 tends to be unnecessary if the Dac has a good implementation.
> And only the I2S connection is interesting in my opinion.
> 
> I find that although the Element H is technically good, it makes the sound seem a bit cooler.
> ...



I find HDMI cables greatly influence the sound.  So, I2S gives you another way to add flavor.  Did you use BUS or external to power Element H?  For about a year, I powered my PC with 12v LPSU.  On a lark, I switched the PC to standard AC adapter and used the LPSU on the Element H.  This led me to take SU-2 out of the chain. Before the switch, SU-2 was necessary to get adequate air and soundstage out of D90.



Deleeh said:


> On which amplifier did you listen to both Dacs?
> Also remember that they are 2 different implementations in that respect and the D90 is equipped with the latest Akm chip.
> And the Ares is a bit older in comparison and technically no longer the newest.



My system is in my signature.  My ears are attuned to TDA1543 (true NOS) DACs.  That said, Ares doesn't sound NOS to me.  GoldenSound's video about this affirms what I hear.  D90 is the first D/S DAC that I can listen to that isn't NOS or R2R.


----------



## viggen

tmac17 said:


> To be clear for the non technical guys like myself... inverted means phase negative or positive?(LED on or off)



Initially I thought inverted and negative phase (led ON) are the same.  After a quick google, inverted and negative might not mean the same thing.  Hope someone more technical can confirm.


----------



## sajunky

viggen said:


> Initially I thought inverted and negative phase (led ON) are the same.  After a quick google, inverted and negative might not mean the same thing.  Hope someone more technical can confirm.


I  didn't check what this settings means in Ares, but a term "absolute phase" comes to my mind. There is a sonic difference when the initial sound presure push speaker membrane forward or backwards. For the best SQ it should be exactly as sensing by microphones, it is why it is called an "absolute phase". There are many recording that have a phase reversed, it is why there is a switch. The same can be achieved by reversing connections of speakers on both channels.


----------



## viggen

sajunky said:


> I  didn't check what this settings means in Ares, but a term "absolute phase" comes to my mind. There is a sonic difference when the initial sound presure push speaker membrane forward or backwards. For the best SQ it should be exactly as sensing by microphones, it is why it is called an "absolute phase". There are many recording that have a phase reversed, it is why there is a switch. The same can be achieved by reversing connections of speakers on both channels.


Yes that is how I understand phase and am used to using absolute and inverse instead of positive and negative.

Early NOS dacs were all phase inversed so had to reverse speaker connections.


----------



## simon740

Cable mess :-/


----------



## Womaz

simon740 said:


> Cable mess :-/


Looks OK from the front though A nice simple set up.


----------



## simon740

Womaz said:


> Looks OK from the front though A nice simple set up.


From the armchair even nicer


----------



## ]eep

Lolito has a good point. People are getting way to dependent on internet. It really is a thing to consider to keep your data local. 


simon740 said:


> Hello,
> 
> anyone use smartphone or DAP as a transport for Ares II dac? Because I had Node 2021, now I have Ifi Zen Stream, and I still prefer LG V40 as a transport for this amazing dac.
> Zen Stream is better than Node 2021 in SQ, but between Zen Stream and LG V40 I dont hear big difference in SQ.
> ...


I use a Hidizs dap that works great over usb. A Tempotec V1 that works just as fine ovef usb and can do coax as well. I can stream dsd from SD card without any  problem. And I have an XMSL DP5 that I can connect both to via a USB cable whole simultaneously connecting to the Ares over USB. All of them sound the same. And I can use my phone as remote with the Hiby software and OS. 

I don't really stream although I do play YouTube from my TV but that doesn't go to the Ares. It happens too often that I'm without internet. Then I have to reset my router to get it to work again. In the meantime I can't do anything. 

Oh, and cable mess? That's nothing! I have about 50 cables. That's why I made my own audio cabinet and video cabinet so I could cover all those cables from view. And hide the power distributer behind in its own niche.


----------



## simon740

]eep said:


> I use a Hidizs dap that works great over usb. A Tempotec V1 that works just as fine ovef usb and can do coax as well. I can stream dsd from SD card without any  problem. And I have an XMSL DP5 that I can connect both to via a USB cable whole simultaneously connecting to the Ares over USB. *All of them sound the same. *And I can use my phone as remote with the Hiby software and OS.


Hmm... I dont agree with that. But this is ok. All hear different.

regards,
Simon


----------



## ]eep

I do understand you. I really like the aesthetic of your room. Very minimalistic. Almost like a zen garden. But as you progress this is very hard to keep.

This afternoon I drew a plan for a turntable support. I made very nice looking speakers only I didn't have much budget for the rest of the system. So a tiny amplifier, seperate 12V powersupply, tiny phonoamp and a well experienced 80's plastic turntable (works properly though) are going to create a chaotic mess. It takes a lot of intelligence to properly reduce entropy. 

Nice to see a pleasing well thought out photo. My Ares is hardly visible.


----------



## simon740

]eep said:


> I do understand you. I really like the aesthetic of your room. Very minimalistic. Almost like a zen garden. But as you progress this is very hard to keep.
> 
> This afternoon I drew a plan for a turntable support. I made very nice looking speakers only I didn't have much budget for the rest of the system. So a tiny amplifier, seperate 12V powersupply, tiny phonoamp and a well experienced 80's plastic turntable (works properly though) are going to create a chaotic mess. It takes a lot of intelligence to properly reduce entropy.
> 
> Nice to see a pleasing well thought out photo. My Ares is hardly visible.


Very nice speakers.


----------



## ]eep

Thank you! Bipolar titanium woofer/fullrange (ie direct coupled) and tweeter is AMT that comes in rather high (5kHz). Very fast and very precise. Good space too. Concept and execution by me. They do need subwoofers though (that's what the big Genesis behind them do best). It's a minimalist design that is like a fullrange with help in the treble and bass without the usual frequency fluctuations that you see in real fullrangers with whizzer cones. These have more air and openness. 

I made both cabinets and the speakers. 

The concept of the Ares goes really well with this system. No clutter, no extras. Just plain sound quality with the shortest possible signalpath  but not neglecting the extremes.


----------



## lightoflight

Is anyone hearing digital noise through the Ares II while music is playing? It's not constant but on occasion it shows up and it's very obvious. I know the noise is from the laptop but Ares II is not scrubbing the signal or it's not doing it very well.


----------



## dougms3

lightoflight said:


> Is anyone hearing digital noise through the Ares II while music is playing? It's not constant but on occasion it shows up and it's very obvious. I know the noise is from the laptop but Ares II is not scrubbing the signal or it's not doing it very well.


I was getting this too, I think it has something to do with the latency.  Pausing the music then playing again seems to clear it up.  

Possibly a ground loop with the usb connection?


----------



## godmax (Oct 27, 2021)

dougms3 said:


> I was getting this too, I think it has something to do with the latency.  Pausing the music then playing again seems to clear it up.
> 
> Possibly a ground loop with the usb connection?


This is a known issue with the Ares II (also the Musician Pegasus has this) most likely due to internal buffer handling issue and happens randomly (and play/pause or changing the buffer size in the driver control fixes the glitch). I guess this only occurs with USB connection (other digital inputs might not be affected).


----------



## squadgazzz

Hey! Did anyone have the ability to compare Ares II with Audio-GD R-1?


----------



## sajunky (Oct 28, 2021)

R-1 has many configuration options to get sound adjusted as you like, while Ares II only OS/NOS. To add to that, both modes do not differ much, as NOS mode is not really NOS but oversampling without use of a digital filter. I didn't see comparison between R-1 and Ares, it can be because R-1 has I2S HDMI port, missing on the Ares. It brings it to the higher level and there is really no competing product in this price range, except Pegasus that had a difficult start up. There is a review that compare sound characteristics of R-7 (old version) against Venus. A final comment also applies to the cheaper products both families:


> Subjectively speaking, R7 can be fast and slow, Venus can’t be as fast, R7 can be bold, punchy, a bass canon if you want, or a gentle giant depending on the settings, Venus can’t be that raw and naughty,


----------



## Womaz

I do really like the idea of buying a product where the owner of the company actually participates in the Forums. It is great to see this.

I am a bit of a novice and this will be my first foray into separates for my HP rig and I am considering either the Aries or the Pontus to use with my Burson 3X Reference and then my Niimbus US5 Pro which will be ordered in the next few weeks.

In the UK so looking at my options


----------



## ahbock

Can the android phone recognise the dac if it is attached to its USB input?


----------



## simon740

ahbock said:


> Can the android phone recognise the dac if it is attached to its USB input?


my LG V40 with UAPP app on it can recognise the Ares II.

regards,
Simon


----------



## ahbock

simon740 said:


> my LG V40 with UAPP app on it can recognise the Ares II.
> 
> regards,
> Simon


Hi Simon, thanks for the info. I am using Onkyo HF player. Hope my phone can detect the dac with that app.


----------



## ]eep

You can just plug it in and android will just use it as soundcard. Also apps that bypass Android and use direct out wil recognize the dac. The same goes for many (all) DAP's. Mine use Hiby-link and Hiby OS, on my phone the Hiby app access the Ares directly so I can play dsd iso (DST or DSF). The only inhibition is the processing speed of the processor (decode compressed dsd).


----------



## Maximus Pain (Nov 3, 2021)

It's now $1100???? https://www.vinshineaudio.com/product-page/denafrips-ares-r2r-dac


----------



## Slade01

Maximus Pain said:


> It's now $1200???? https://www.vinshineaudio.com/product-page/denafrips-ares-r2r-dac


The 1200 is in Singapore Dollars.


----------



## simon740

813.50 USD


----------



## ahbock

Fortunately i pulled the trigger few days ago with the old pricing.


----------



## ahbock

Received the Ares 2 today. Initial impression, this piece of equipment is well built and heavy. Very happy with the quality. 

The sound signature is airy and analog liked, very natural sounding, which is what i am looking for. Expansive sound stage and there is seperation. I can hear where are the position of the instrument in the recording. Trying out some DSD tracks. I can hear the details. Overall a very satisfying purchase. Have been listening to Delta Sigma Dac, this is my first experience with R2R Dac. 

My current setting is OS and slow roll off, which i compare with NOS sound the best. But have yet to try more tracks. Perhaps NOS might be ok to listen to. 

My equipment Ares 2 - > Glow Amp One - > Q Acoustic 1010. Will try to pair it with Schiit Vahalla 2 with HD 6XX.


----------



## Sean H

ahbock said:


> Received the Ares 2 today. Initial impression, this piece of equipment is well built and heavy. Very happy with the quality.
> 
> The sound signature is airy and analog liked, very natural sounding, which is what i am looking for. Expansive sound stage and there is seperation. I can hear where are the position of the instrument in the recording. Trying out some DSD tracks. I can hear the details. Overall a very satisfying purchase. Have been listening to Delta Sigma Dac, this is my first experience with R2R Dac.
> 
> ...


I recently got one as well and it's a fantastic DAC! I noted a definite change and improvement in the sound after after a good 100 hours or more of play through it and leaving it on all the time yields even better results.


----------



## ahbock

Sean H said:


> I recently got one as well and it's a fantastic DAC! I noted a definite change and improvement in the sound after after a good 100 hours or more of play through it and leaving it on all the time yields even better results.


Yes i will definitely left it on for better result.


----------



## MacMan31

Has anyone here compared the Denafrips Ares II to the Schiit Bifrost II? I currently have the Bifrost II but I'm very curious about the Ares II. Anytime I see it come up on used audio sites it sells quickly. Seems to be highly regarded.


----------



## viggen

ksorota said:


> Been running the Ares II for about two weeks now and have preferred the NOS mode.
> 
> My setup includes MacMini m1, Denafrips (Iris-new), Ares, Freya S, Vidar to HE6 and I could not be more happy with the sound.
> 
> ...


How does the Ares sound with and without the Iris?


----------



## daytrader

viggen said:


> How does the Ares sound with and without the Iris?


I have the Ares2 in my head-phone system, it sounds really good.  I have a Pontus in my home audio system, it sounds even better.  With all that said, and I’m only speculating, an Ares2/Iris set up, for the money would be hard to beat for 98% of us out there.  The combo reads like they were meant for each other.  My 2 cents worth, if I had to do it all over. 🗿


----------



## dougms3

daytrader said:


> I have the Ares2 in my head-phone system, it sounds really good.  I have a Pontus in my home audio system, it sounds even better.  With all that said, and I’m only speculating, an Ares2/Iris set up, for the money would be hard to beat for 98% of us out there.  The combo reads like they were meant for each other.  My 2 cents worth, if I had to do it all over. 🗿


Is it possible to explain the difference the iris makes in terms of sonics?


----------



## daytrader

dougms3 said:


> Is it possible to explain the difference the iris makes in terms of sonics?


I can only rely on Alvin’s YouTube video he made on Vinshine Audio site.  He explains how it better corrects the 1s & 0s.  The Ares2 is really good on its own, now paired with the Iris should be killer, maybe even surpassing the Pontus?  The Iris claims to make things sound better, based on the video.  I just think that‘s enough for most, and given a good system it’s likely not going to leave us thinking we need more.

I speculate if one had a Pontus or better, I wouldn’t spend the money to upgrade with a DDC, I’d look elsewhere for deficiencies within the system if I were not happy.


----------



## daytrader

Actually went back to see the video again, looks like the big advantage is the I2S connection for these DDCs.


----------



## dougms3

daytrader said:


> Actually went back to see the video again, looks like the big advantage is the I2S connection for these DDCs.


Yea the i2s connection is a big selling point but alas the ares ii doesn't have an i2s connection


----------



## viggen

daytrader said:


> Actually went back to see the video again, looks like the big advantage is the I2S connection for these DDCs.


That's why it would be good to get some feedback from someone who has used Iris with Ares since Ares doesn't have I2S.  

I am finding it favorable to use Matrix X-SPDIF before the Ares using Coax connection.


----------



## daytrader

viggen said:


> That's why it would be good to get some feedback from someone who has used Iris with Ares since Ares doesn't have I2S.
> 
> I am finding it favorable to use Matrix X-SPDIF before the Ares using Coax connection.


I’m very sure Coax is your best choice.


----------



## tmac17

The research I've done... I found that the Iris is beneficial for the pontus and up. I find this reviewer to be honest and technical.  Should be noted most of what I read about it is in regards to a 2ch system.  So things may be different with headphones.


----------



## daytrader

I‘ve been keeping an eye out for the new Pi2 out soon.  It has i2S and streams.  If anyone caught the review on GoldenSound you I’ll see why.  He thought it out did the Hermes when used in I2S connection.


----------



## daytrader

tmac17 said:


> The research I've done... I found that the Iris is beneficial for the pontus and up. I find this reviewer to be honest and technical.  Should be noted most of what I read about it is in regards to a 2ch system.  So things may be different with headphones.



I like him too, he’s very evenhanded when it comes to audio products that he likes and dislikes.


----------



## TheMiddleSky

Finally able to tried Ares yesterday. Actually I like Pontus a lot as R2R DAC, and consider it as well price product. So I expect Ares should be able to handle the competition well compare to DAC with similar price range.

Sadly, that's not the story. I don't know what actually happened, but Ares perform poor in term of sound quality (set aside from tonality, because this one is subjective and depend on synergy of system).

A/B comparison with Topping D90SE and D70S, Ares has diffuse presentation, lack of resolution in treble to bass spectrum, and especially in midrange area, where I can feel hollowness there. Lack of focus and definition. 

Topping D90SE perform much better solidity to shaping instrument sound, and better focus on each notes. Vocal is more dense, more texture, and also perform fuller compare to Ares. Not that Ares produce thin vocal, but the diffuse effect rather strong, and singer become lost their emotion here.

The only aspect I can like is soundstage width from Ares (wider than topping), nice depth, about on par with D90SE. With the cost of lack in term resolution, definition and lack of focus. Definitely a not worth it price to pay for perform wider soundstage.

Comparison done with Singxer SA-1 and ZMF Verite Open. Using all balance connection.


----------



## dougms3

TheMiddleSky said:


> Finally able to tried Ares yesterday. Actually I like Pontus a lot as R2R DAC, and consider it as well price product. So I expect Ares should be able to handle the competition well compare to DAC with similar price range.
> 
> Sadly, that's not the story. I don't know what actually happened, but Ares perform poor in term of sound quality (set aside from tonality, because this one is subjective and depend on synergy of system).
> 
> ...


You are comparing the weaknesses of an r2r ladder dac vs the strengths of a delta sigma dac.  Listening to a delta sigma dac after listening to the Ares is like listening to Mark Zuckerberg explain human emotion.  By comparison, if it had a sound, I'd say thats what a dead fish sounds like.  

If your preference gravitates towards ultimate resolution then entry level r2r may not be for you.  The Pontus costs more than double the Ares, yes, its a more resolving dac.


----------



## TheMiddleSky

dougms3 said:


> You are comparing the weaknesses of an r2r ladder dac vs the strengths of a delta sigma dac.


I wouldn't say that far. I never generalise things anyway. My impression above is about Ares. Not R2R DAC in general. 

I also listened to other R2R DACs in DAP like Cayin R01 module and Hiby RS6. Set aside from Pontus, the R2R DACs inside these DAPs also not suffer from diffuse and lack of focus on Ares.


----------



## dougms3

TheMiddleSky said:


> I wouldn't say that far. I never generalise things anyway. My impression above is about Ares. Not R2R DAC in general.
> 
> I also listened to other R2R DACs in DAP like Cayin R01 module and Hiby RS6. Set aside from Pontus, the R2R DACs inside these DAPs also not suffer from diffuse and lack of focus on Ares.


Again you're comparing much more expensive gear to an entry level r2r dac.  Cayin N6ii + r01 module = $1700, Hiby rs6 = $1400.  Might as well throw in a comparison to the DCS Bartok in there.

Not sure what you mean by suffer from diffuse.  Are you referring to the decay?


----------



## TheMiddleSky (Nov 14, 2021)

dougms3 said:


> Again you're comparing much more expensive gear to an entry level r2r dac.  Cayin N6ii + r01 module = $1700, Hiby rs6 = $1400.  Might as well throw in a comparison to the DCS Bartok in there.
> 
> Not sure what you mean by suffer from diffuse.  Are you referring to the decay?


Nope, you can't really counting like that. Ares is pure DAC, we pay the whole USD 750 to buy DAC parts there.

DAP like Cayin and Hiby cost higher because they contain screen, software UI development, battery, bluetooth, wifi and so many other parts. The DAC parts are much cheaper than that, for example Cayin R01 module for Cayin N6ii is only cost USD 619, and already include amplifier as well. Can you imagine the price for R2R DAC inside there?

Diffuse in term of lack focus. Lack of definition.

Anyway, my main point here is that Ares not able to compete with DAC within its price range. You can't just say because Ares is entry level R2R DAC as an excuse. Pontus fight back really well against delta sigma and pulse array DAC within its price range.


----------



## daytrader (Nov 14, 2021)

TheMiddleSky said:


> Finally able to tried Ares yesterday. Actually I like Pontus a lot as R2R DAC, and consider it as well price product. So I expect Ares should be able to handle the competition well compare to DAC with similar price range.
> 
> Sadly, that's not the story. I don't know what actually happened, but Ares perform poor in term of sound quality (set aside from tonality, because this one is subjective and depend on synergy of system).
> 
> ...


Let me add my 2 cents here.  I own both the Ares2 and the Pontus2.  For me the Ares did suffer a bit of confused soundstage right out of the box.  Actually if one goes back to my first post after receiving the unit, I stated so very clearly.  It took a few day of being on and playing for things to become settled.  The Pontus on the other hand, as I remember it, did not suffer the same defused soundstage out of the box.  It was just great from the get go!

The Pontus ended up living in my home audio system.  The Ares resides in my Stax stack, it’s that good.  Not sure if your unit has an issue or just hasn’t had enough time to break in?


----------



## dougms3

TheMiddleSky said:


> Nope, you can't really counting like that. Ares is pure DAC, we pay the whole USD 750 to buy DAC parts there.
> 
> DAP like Cayin and Hiby cost higher because they contain screen, software UI development, battery, bluetooth, wifi and so many other parts. The DAC parts are much cheaper than that, for example Cayin R01 module for Cayin N6ii is only cost USD 619, and already include amplifier as well. Can you imagine the price for R2R DAC inside there?
> 
> ...


So how much do i have to pay to play?

I already have a $1000+ dap with ui and screen, my phone and pc.  Can i just buy the r01 and use that? No? Then not really a fair comparison is it.

And yes i can really counting like that, If you want to rationalize the price for yourself, that's fine, but that's a hard sell for anyone else.


----------



## Djankie

Would a tube amp synergize with this DAC?


----------



## dougms3

Djankie said:


> Would a tube amp synergize with this DAC?


I would guess so.

The Ares II projects a holographic presentation which I would imagine goes nicely with a tube amp.


----------



## daytrader

Djankie said:


> Will work very well with both tube and solid state amps.  Can’t say that about most delta sigma dacs!


----------



## squadgazzz

Hi! Do I need to keep my Ares II always ON to be able to listen to it at any moment? Looks like it needs some time to warm up.


----------



## Djankie

squadgazzz said:


> Hi! Do I need to keep my Ares II always ON to be able to listen to it at any moment? Looks like it needs some time to warm up.


I've read in this topic that it should be left on 24/7


----------



## simon740

squadgazzz said:


> Hi! Do I need to keep my Ares II always ON to be able to listen to it at any moment? Looks like it needs some time to warm up.


Hello,

yes. I keep my Ares II always ON.

regards,
Simon


----------



## MatW

I switch it off when not in use. Saving energy and all.. To each his own.


----------



## viggen (Nov 19, 2021)

i'd turn it off too if i lived in an off the grid tiny home and power everything off a optima car battery


----------



## PopZeus

I keep mine on standby. When I turn on my amp and the DAC, both warm up quickly.


----------



## Djankie (Nov 19, 2021)

I've got the following question. I bought an Ares 2 and currently have the following situation:






I would like to use the Ares 2 for Both the speakers AND headphone amp (SO I might be able to sell the PCI-E soundcard & hum eliminator) as follows:




However I've read that using both outputs is not recommended.. How would you solve this problem?


----------



## gto88

PopZeus said:


> I keep mine on standby. When I turn on my amp and the DAC, both warm up quickly.


That is what I do too.


----------



## dougms3 (Nov 19, 2021)

Djankie said:


> I've got the following question. I bought an Ares 2 and currently have the following situation:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not recommended is an understatement.  It will cause distorted audio if you plug in both at the same time.

You can get one of those nobsound switchers.  Like this.

https://www.amazon.com/Nobsound-Audio-Balanced-Converter-Selector/dp/B07R1XCNHG/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?crid=2M6R9NA0OVWZQ&keywords=one+little+bear+switcher&qid=1637348628&qsid=141-0826184-3078000&sprefix=one+little+bear+switcher,aps,76&sr=8-3&sres=B07R1XCNHG,B07Q1W4484,B07CKK7J2L,B07875KC4F,B07QVKPR2V,B00OY0TBMA,B07DNYF22N,B0787X4J4V,B07CGF5RZF,B07CQKF59K,B07CQWTZGH,B07GVFGB6N,B093GSS8P7,B093FT2PT5#

I'm not a fan of these things because it introduces variables into the signal path but they are convenient.

If you're getting a hum the usb connection is probably bleeding noise into your system or maybe a ground loop.


----------



## Djankie

dougms3 said:


> If you're getting a hum the usb connection is probably bleeding noise into your system or maybe a ground loop.


I forgot to mention it's a PCI card


----------



## Forsaked

dougms3 said:


> Not recommended is an understatement.  It will cause distorted audio if you plug in both at the same time.
> 
> You can get one of those nobsound switchers.  Like this.
> 
> ...


The Nobsound switcher doesn't seem affecting the singnal in any way:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...und-3-in-1-out-xlr-audio-switch-review.11062/


----------



## dougms3

Forsaked said:


> The Nobsound switcher doesn't seem affecting the singnal in any way:
> 
> https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...und-3-in-1-out-xlr-audio-switch-review.11062/


No offense but he didnt even listen to anything with his "scientific" test there which is the only thing that matters.  I'd rather he open it up and let everyone see whats inside so they could determine for themselves.

The signal is going through cheap wire and solder, its most likely going to affect the sound in some way.


----------



## Forsaked

dougms3 said:


> No offense but he didnt even listen to anything with his "scientific" test there which is the only thing that matters.  I'd rather he open it up and let everyone see whats inside so they could determine for themselves.
> 
> The signal is going through cheap wire and solder, its most likely going to affect the sound in some way.


Neutral is neutral, but anyway:


----------



## dougms3

Forsaked said:


> Neutral is neutral, but anyway:


If you say so...

I haven't tested it for myself so I can't say what it sounds like but common sense, if you're putting that in the signal path, its not going to be the same as not putting in the signal path.  Based on your image there, I'd take a hard pass but thats just me, do whatever you want.

But anyway...


----------



## JoeTho

Just received my Ares II today. A day earlier than the scheduled delivery date. I paired it with the Topping A90 and it sounds fabulous. I should have moved on one sooner.


----------



## Djankie

JoeTho said:


> Just received my Ares II today. A day earlier than the scheduled delivery date. I paired it with the Topping A90 and it sounds fabulous. I should have moved on one sooner.



What makes it sound fabulous?


----------



## dakchi

Did anyone replace the stock power cable? did it make any difference?


----------



## rreynolds

dakchi said:


> Did anyone replace the stock power cable? did it make any difference?


Before I sold my Ares II, was using an AudioQuest NRG-Y3 and personally heard a difference. Sound was a bit cleaner w/ dynamics also improving just a bit from the stock cable.


----------



## AryaHD

Does the SE out have reduced sound quality compared with balanced? I am using it with an SE only tube amp.


----------



## BenSherman

Hi everyone. I have an Ares II on order, and have a question please regarding using my phone as the music player.

I plan to exclusively use my Android phone (Google Pixel 4 XL) and plug a cable directly from the phone's USB-C port into the Ares' USB-Type B port.

I've purchased a straight USB-C to USB-B cable (see pic below and link here: https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B086ZGKYH8/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&th=1).

Will this work? It isn't labelled as an 'OTG' cable - but both ends are correct...?!

Cheers 👍


----------



## rreynolds

BenSherman said:


> Hi everyone. I have an Ares II on order, and have a question please regarding using my phone as the music player.
> 
> I plan to exclusively use my Android phone (Google Pixel 4 XL) and plug a cable directly from the phone's USB-C port into the Ares' USB-Type B port.
> 
> ...


Hey Ben, yes this should work just fine. Literally used a $12 printer cable for years until upgrading to an audioquest forest usb.


----------



## BenSherman

rreynolds said:


> Hey Ben, yes this should work just fine. Literally used a $12 printer cable for years until upgrading to an audioquest forest usb.



That's great thank you! I didn't know if I needed a specific 'OTG' for an Android phone.

How do you find the Audioquest cable? Does upgrading the USB have any effect on the sound?


----------



## simon740

BenSherman said:


> Hi everyone. I have an Ares II on order, and have a question please regarding using my phone as the music player.
> 
> I plan to exclusively use my Android phone (Google Pixel 4 XL) and plug a cable directly from the phone's USB-C port into the Ares' USB-Type B port.
> 
> ...


Hi! I have the same cable for connecting my LG v40 with the Ares II. Work without problems.

regards,
Simon


----------



## AryaHD

ARES II crashes and freezes my iPhone 12 Pros using USB to Apple USB3 adapter. Works well on iPhone 11 Pro, iPod, and iPad. Any fix for iPhone 12 yet?


----------



## dakchi

My iphone 12 Pro does not find Ares II when connected to it through the camera USB adapter. Is this the way I have to connect them? do I need to do something else?


----------



## simon740

dakchi said:


> My iphone 12 Pro does not find Ares II when connected to it through the camera USB adapter. Is this the way I have to connect them? do I need to do something else?


Better contact Alvin.


----------



## godmax (Dec 7, 2021)

Maybe for those who are interested:
Denafrips recently made a new MCU firmware update available (unlike some intermediate versions the PCM1536 / DSD1024 support is back again):
_V3.12.0 (Current latest version)
- Date 29th Nov 2021 
- Compatible with macOS / winOS / Linux  
- Improved low level STM MCU32 USB handshake with host
- Supports PCM1536 / DSD1024_

Download and guide: https://www.denafrips.com/firmware-update-usb

Just did the update myself on the Ares II without an issue, hopefully the random out-of-sync USB buffer bug will be solved finally, lets see.


----------



## gto88

update mine too.
I didn't know the step "Windows Signed Driver Enforcement must be disabled" meant at first, so I failed once.
After google it and done as said, all is good.


----------



## Charlyro222

At last, Ares II arrived.


----------



## dougms3

Charlyro222 said:


> At last, Ares II arrived.


Interesting pairings there.

Didnt know people still used earbuds.


----------



## dakchi

For those who are pairing Bluesound Node with Ares II and are wondering if they can have a better sound by changing the streamer, I just A/B my Node 2i with an Ifi Zen Stream I purchased today: there is a noticeable improvement in sound. It's more open with much stronger bass with the Ifi. However, Bluesound has the best app, so it's a matter of what is important for you: sound or app


----------



## simon740

dakchi said:


> For those who are pairing Bluesound Node with Ares II and are wondering if they can have a better sound by changing the streamer, I just A/B my Node 2i with an Ifi Zen Stream I purchased today: there is a noticeable improvement in sound. It's more open with much stronger bass with the Ifi. However, Bluesound has the best app, so it's a matter of what is important for you: sound or app


I had Node 2021 and the Zen Stream. For me Zen Stream is way better with Ares II. But sold both, because Node 2021 digital out is meh....and the Zen Stream is so buggy right now. BlueOS is superb.
Still looking for better streamer.

regards,
Simon


----------



## Charlyro222

dougms3 said:


> Interesting pairings there.
> 
> Didnt know people still used earbuds.


Buds are a surprising discovery for me this 2021.

I began moving from iems world to earbuds and don´t regret


----------



## Djankie

Charlyro222 said:


> At last, Ares II arrived.



Nice, hopefully I will be getting mine in 2 weeks or so.


----------



## iFi audio

dakchi said:


> For those who are pairing Bluesound Node with Ares II and are wondering if they can have a better sound by changing the streamer, I just A/B my Node 2i with an Ifi Zen Stream I purchased today: there is a noticeable improvement in sound. It's more open with much stronger bass with the Ifi. However, Bluesound has the best app, so it's a matter of what is important for you: sound or app



Thanks! ZEN Stream is our relatively new platform, but we'll keep on improving it via firmware updates.


----------



## dakchi

iFi audio said:


> Thanks! ZEN Stream is our relatively new platform, but we'll keep on improving it via firmware updates.


If you improve the software, it will be the perfect budget streamer. There is still a lot to be improved and lot of bugs to be fixed. The software has to be at the same level as the hardware


----------



## iFi audio

dakchi said:


> If you improve the software, it will be the perfect budget streamer.



That's the goal!



dakchi said:


> There is still a lot to be improved and lot of bugs to be fixed.



We're always open for suggestions about aspects that need fixing and we're working on making ZEN Stream better. Thanks for your input!


----------



## Charlyro222

Any way on listening apple music on Zen Stream without a Mac or iPhone?


----------



## dakchi

Charlyro222 said:


> Any way on listening apple music on Zen Stream without a Mac or iPhone?


No, apple music is only available in apple products. However, you can play through airplay, but the quality will not be the same


----------



## BenSherman

Have any of you tried this 'tuning' of your Ares II?

This German distributor swears by it (along with many others in the comments on this YouTube video)!


----------



## tmac17

godmax said:


> Maybe for those who are interested:
> Denafrips recently made a new MCU firmware update available (unlike some intermediate versions the PCM1536 / DSD1024 support is back again):
> _V3.12.0 (Current latest version)
> - Date 29th Nov 2021
> ...


Thanks for that info. How did u find out out about the update?


----------



## tmac17

BenSherman said:


> Have any of you tried this 'tuning' of your Ares II?
> 
> This German distributor swears by it (along with many others in the comments on this YouTube video)!



One day I'll get around to it.


----------



## iFi audio

dakchi said:


> No, apple music is only available in apple products. However, you can play through airplay,



That's correct, thanks!


----------



## dakchi

iFi audio said:


> That's correct, thanks!


@iFi audio , I have a question for you. Is there a way to play any song in a folder in a media sever without having to play the whole folder and then select the song we want to play from the playlist? this is very annoying


----------



## JaquesGelee

godmax said:


> Maybe for those who are interested:
> Denafrips recently made a new MCU firmware update available (unlike some intermediate versions the PCM1536 / DSD1024 support is back again):
> _V3.12.0 (Current latest version)
> - Date 29th Nov 2021
> ...


Thank you for the info.

Do you mean, the random out of sync in weird tonality sometimes?

Do you have updated via Win or Mac?

Cheers


----------



## godmax (Dec 13, 2021)

JaquesGelee said:


> Thank you for the info.
> 
> Do you mean, the random out of sync in weird tonality sometimes?
> 
> ...



Yes, that random issue, that happens from time to time since release (but not in ASIO mode, I assume).
Can't really say it fixed now, but have not experienced this issue since the update yet.
Updated done with Windows (had the ConfigProgramDriver already installed for Musician Pegasus, that is basically identically in that regard - and also has this random out of sync issue)


----------



## alvin1118

V3.12 USB firmware is the latest stable version. I highly encourage you to update the firmware, if you use the USB input. 

The latest Thesycon Windows USB Driver V5.30 is released too. 

*Details: *click here


----------



## rreynolds

alvin1118 said:


> V3.12 USB firmware is the latest stable version. I highly encourage you to update the firmware, if you use the USB input.
> 
> The latest Thesycon Windows USB Driver V5.30 is released too.
> 
> *Details: *click here


Hey Alvin, 
A bit off topic, what streamer do you recommend with a Denafrips DAC for full MQA decoding? Currently use Tidal primarily as my main streaming service & would like the full unfolding before sending the digital signal to the Gaia.


----------



## JoeTho

I don't have a Windows computer, nor do i have access to one. I have an iMac only. Can I use that to upgrade the Ares II?


----------



## squadgazzz (Dec 13, 2021)

JoeTho said:


> I don't have a Windows computer, nor do i have access to one. I have an iMac only. Can I use that to upgrade the Ares II?


Why do you need that? Windows users only must suffer  
https://www.denafrips.com/usb-mcu-firmware-update-mac


----------



## escknx

I just received Ares 2, plugged into Win PC, installed driver and lost volume control thru Windows. Just like it always operate in ASIO mode, even tho it is not. I can control volume within apps like Foobar or Qubuz, but no Windows native control with their driver. Any idea on how to fix that?


----------



## dougms3

BenSherman said:


> Have any of you tried this 'tuning' of your Ares II?
> 
> This German distributor swears by it (along with many others in the comments on this YouTube video)!




Couldn't find a copper washer so I just used a brass washer.

Lol very surprising, there is a slight difference.


----------



## viggen

Did the USB update.  Sound via USB did improve.  I still prefer COAX input though.

Did order a Pontus.


----------



## simon740

Hello again!

I still looking for some good transport to my Ares II. I Had Node 2021 and Ifi Zen Stream .
Node 2021 have very good system. Ui...The sound nothing special. IfI Zen Stream had very good sound but a lot of bugs.
So...
What else to try? Now I have LG v40. Very good, but this is not practical, because this is my phone.

regards,
Simon


----------



## viggen

simon740 said:


> Hello again!
> 
> I still looking for some good transport to my Ares II. I Had Node 2021 and Ifi Zen Stream .
> Node 2021 have very good system. Ui...The sound nothing special. IfI Zen Stream had very good sound but a lot of bugs.
> ...


https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=177495.msg1868015#msg1868015


----------



## simon740

viggen said:


> https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=177495.msg1868015#msg1868015


Thank you. But this is not for me. I need transport for Ares II in my speaker system.


----------



## NehPets

simon740 said:


> Hello again!
> 
> I still looking for some good transport to my Ares II. I Had Node 2021 and Ifi Zen Stream .
> Node 2021 have very good system. Ui...The sound nothing special. IfI Zen Stream had very good sound but a lot of bugs.
> ...


If it's purely a transport you're after, how about Xduoo X10T II?


----------



## PopZeus

If Shanling could unlock the mysteries of gapless playback on Android, their streamer might be worth recommending.


----------



## simon740 (Dec 20, 2021)

NehPets said:


> If it's purely a transport you're after, how about Xduoo X10T II?


Yes, I already think about this. Nice device. I only need some player wich can play from sd card, usb stick/ssd...
For Tidal I can use my Ipad Pro 10.5”.


----------



## ]eep

simon740 said:


> Yes, I already think about this. Nice device. I only need some player wich can play from sd card, usb stick/ssd...
> For Tidal I can use my Ipad Pro 10.5”.


I'm using the SMSL DP5 that has the same width as the Ares. But there is a cheaper alternative now without a built in dac called the DA9. I like it because I can use my Android phone with the Hiby music app (Hiby Link) to control it and pick what I want to play from my 2TB HD. You can play from wifi, DLNA, SD card slot or HD (SSD) via the USB port. I like the styling and quality but sometimes I have to start it up a few times because the initialization of the usb can confuse the cpu sometimes. 
I have quite a lot of inputs and outputs connected. But I always get it to do what I want. It's not always easy to get all ins and out working at the same time, not even on PC. 

I also noticed if the covers are tagged inside the flacs it shows the covers of what I'm playing on my phone. My HD has a lot of my flacs with seperate front/back/cd/label pictures. That works great from pc with Foobar, only Hiby doest follow those rules and I get a generic Pic. Not a biggie but less than perfect. Not the fault of the SMSL really.


----------



## Charlyro222

simon740 said:


> Hello again!
> 
> I still looking for some good transport to my Ares II. I Had Node 2021 and Ifi Zen Stream .
> Node 2021 have very good system. Ui...The sound nothing special. IfI Zen Stream had very good sound but a lot of bugs.
> ...


Give a try to Shanling M3X, great for transport internet streaming.


----------



## simon740

What about Allo Usbridge Signature? Anyone use this with Ares II?

regards,
Simon


----------



## squadgazzz

Hey there!
I've got a lot of IFI's stuff from my previous setup. I've tried to test it and here're some results.
Macbook -> iUSB 3.0 -> Ares II: very minor changes. not sure if I've noticed something special.
Macbook -> iGalvanic 3.0 -> iUSB 3.0 -> Ares II: a bit better bass control and I guess, that's all.
I also want to try the next schemes: Macbook -> iGalvanic 3.0 -> Ares II(can't test it because I have USB 3.0 cable termination) and Macbook -> iPurifier 3.0 -> Ares II.

I wonder to know if anyone has already tried iGalvanic and iPurifier. Please share the results.
Right now I think I have to sell my extra rig)


----------



## NehPets

]eep said:


> I'm using the SMSL DP5 that has the same width as the Ares. But there is a cheaper alternative now without a built in dac called the DA9. I like it because I can use my Android phone with the Hiby music app (Hiby Link) to control it and pick what I want to play from my 2TB HD. You can play from wifi, DLNA, SD card slot or HD (SSD) via the USB port. I like the styling and quality but sometimes I have to start it up a few times because the initialization of the usb can confuse the cpu sometimes.
> I have quite a lot of inputs and outputs connected. But I always get it to do what I want. It's not always easy to get all ins and out working at the same time, not even on PC.
> 
> I also noticed if the covers are tagged inside the flacs it shows the covers of what I'm playing on my phone. My HD has a lot of my flacs with seperate front/back/cd/label pictures. That works great from pc with Foobar, only Hiby doest follow those rules and I get a generic Pic. Not a biggie but less than perfect. Not the fault of the SMSL really.


I had the SMSL SD-9 for a short while. It's a nice enough device and well connected, but I found it virtually unusable without resorting to HibyLink. I already had a device that's unusable without HibyLink (Shanling M-2S) and I didn't need another, so I returned the SD-9.


----------



## TheRealDz

FWIW, I just bought a Musician Draco.  I am comparing it my Ares 2 as it burns in:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/musician-draco-r2r-dac.961194/#post-16719045

The most obvious difference is that the Draco has an I2S input, so that I can use the I2S output from my DDC. 

Apparently Denafrips manufactures Musician products.  The Ares and Draco are roughly the same price, so they make for an interesting comparison.


----------



## ]eep

NehPets said:


> I had the SMSL SD-9 for a short while. It's a nice enough device and well connected, but I found it virtually unusable without resorting to HibyLink. I already had a device that's unusable without HibyLink (Shanling M-2S) and I didn't need another, so I returned the SD-9.


Well, so do I. I was already using Hiby on my phone since it's the best free player on Android. Then I bought a Tempotec V1 server (dap w/o dac) which can do the same as the Shanling (I guess), can hold 2 SD cards (unique) and costs very little money. And... It works with Hiby OS. It has usb and coax out btw. 

Then I bought the Hidizs AP80 pro that has a better screen and a balanced hp-out, no coax, but can play from USB SSD. Also with Hiby OS. 

So when I saw the SMSL used Hiby-link I was sold. I can use either of the 3 but I can also connect the Tempotec to the SMSL and just leave it connected to the Ares (V1>usb>SMSL >usb>Ares). It's a bit of daisy chaining but it has no averse effect, can do DSD64 and I don't need to replug every time. 

So I'm really content with Hiby. Works a lot better than BT or DLNA or Wi-Fi for me.


----------



## ]eep

TheRealDz said:


> FWIW, I just bought a Musician Draco.  I am comparing it my Ares 2 as it burns in:
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/musician-draco-r2r-dac.961194/#post-16719045
> 
> ...


Very interesting! Taking one for the team as they say. Very controversial subject because every time I mention something about this strange connection... Man. Flame war! 

The thing is, I'm very curious how this connection came to be. Do they have some kind of deal, do they order from the same OEM manufacturing plant, did Musician Audio 'borrow' from the Denafrips designs? Did MA make denafrips sign an NDA or fo they demand it when sending review samples? It's very polarising since people who buy the more expensive MA models are using the austridge method (confirmation bias) if you mention any of the strange going ons on reviewer websites and vanishing youtube reviews. And 'of course' the MA models are 'much better'. 

So I am really looking forward to your findings. 

FYI, I think the Draco looks like a good dac with interesting features (i2s) and look at a very interesting price point. But the Pegasus being the supposed equal to the Ares (mainboard and layout, they look very similar), the Draco is simpler. So it could be a model down, a lower entry point. I wouldn't be surprised if they do not perform on the same level. Only the i2s could win the day. All speculation.


----------



## dougms3

squadgazzz said:


> Hey there!
> I've got a lot of IFI's stuff from my previous setup. I've tried to test it and here're some results.
> Macbook -> iUSB 3.0 -> Ares II: very minor changes. not sure if I've noticed something special.
> Macbook -> iGalvanic 3.0 -> iUSB 3.0 -> Ares II: a bit better bass control and I guess, that's all.
> ...


I have an isilencer > igalvanic > idefender > ipurifier.  Initially, I only got the igalvanic but I was blown by the improvements and bought the others to test if it made any difference, planning to return it if it didn't yield any or little improvement.  Unfortunate for my wallet, they do yield improvements cumulatively.  Whenever, I think its not possible to reduce the noise further, its reduced further. 

The igalvanic makes the single biggest difference though.


----------



## TheRealDz

]eep said:


> Very interesting! Taking one for the team as they say. Very controversial subject because every time I mention something about this strange connection... Man. Flame war!
> 
> The thing is, I'm very curious how this connection came to be. Do they have some kind of deal, do they order from the same OEM manufacturing plant, did Musician Audio 'borrow' from the Denafrips designs? Did MA make denafrips sign an NDA or fo they demand it when sending review samples? It's very polarising since people who buy the more expensive MA models are using the austridge method (confirmation bias) if you mention any of the strange going ons on reviewer websites and vanishing youtube reviews. And 'of course' the MA models are 'much better'.
> 
> ...


I can't speak about the other Musician models any more than I can about the other Denafrips models.  

Nor do I want to get into any kind of flame war here - you know that I have spent a lot of time on this thread, and really appreciate the folks I have gotten to know through it. 

That said, I have no problem with Musician's business operations.  Denafrips is Musician's OEM (ie, Musician hires Denafrips to do their manufacturing), so any concerns about IP, copying, etc, are absolutely immaterial because of that. 

I don't want to derail this thread, so I will save my impressions for the Draco thread...except to say that there are clear differences between the two...


----------



## TheRealDz

dougms3 said:


> I have an isilencer > igalvanic > idefender > ipurifier.  Initially, I only got the igalvanic but I was blown by the improvements and bought the others to test if it made any difference, planning to return it if it didn't yield any or little improvement.  Unfortunate for my wallet, they do yield improvements cumulatively.  Whenever, I think its not possible to reduce the noise further, its reduced further.
> 
> The igalvanic makes the single biggest difference though.


This doesn't surprise me - I am impressed at the performance of iFi products across the board.  I might have to snag an iGalvanic...


----------



## dougms3

TheRealDz said:


> This doesn't surprise me - I am impressed at the performance of iFi products across the board.  I might have to snag an iGalvanic...


Yeah I'm surprised myself at how much it cleans up the usb connection.  Its hard to notice the noise mixed in with the music until its removed.  Background sounds come forward and sound closer, more detailed and easily audible.

At the risk of being ripped into, I'm going to share my experience with this audiophile fuse. I purchased one because no one seems to have tried one, it was no risk to me and I planned on returning it if it didn't make a difference.

The Ares II will be my endgame, I don't plan on upgrading any further and want to maximize its capabilities.  

My thoughts are that it makes a significant difference.  Instruments sound more natural and organic, especially guitar and piano tones.  Its more musical, open and seems to be better resolution.  It makes the treble more crisp where it was a little rough around the edges before.


----------



## squadgazzz

dougms3 said:


> I have an isilencer > igalvanic > idefender > ipurifier.  Initially, I only got the igalvanic but I was blown by the improvements and bought the others to test if it made any difference, planning to return it if it didn't yield any or little improvement.  Unfortunate for my wallet, they do yield improvements cumulatively.  Whenever, I think its not possible to reduce the noise further, its reduced further.
> 
> The igalvanic makes the single biggest difference though.


What source do you have? I bet it's a non-Apple device.

Here's my story.
I started with the following scheme: iGalvanic -> iPurifier -> iDSD micro BL: well, that's sound a bit better, 5% sound improvements I guess.
Then I replaced iGalvanic with iUSB 3.0 and I was amazed by sound improvements. I literally got a new device.
BTW, using iGalvanic+iUSB at the same time gave too clinical and unnatural sound.

And now I have Ares. iUSB 3.0 doesn't provide any significant difference. Not sure iGalvanic would improve the sound because iUSB couldn't do this. As iUSB should be a much better device compared to iGalvanic.


----------



## NehPets

Since MA Pegasus sounds better/different to Ares II, has anyone copied the FPGA code, algorithms, etc., from one to the other?


----------



## dougms3

squadgazzz said:


> What source do you have? I bet it's a non-Apple device.
> 
> Here's my story.
> I started with the following scheme: iGalvanic -> iPurifier -> iDSD micro BL: well, that's sound a bit better, 5% sound improvements I guess.
> ...


Igalvanic and iusb do different things, one is not a replacement for the other.

Did you give it enough time to burn in?  These devices require a significant amount of burn in time, maybe 200 or so hours to settle in.  Also for optimal effect, the iusb should be connected after the igalvanic according to ifi.


----------



## squadgazzz

dougms3 said:


> Igalvanic and iusb do different things, one is not a replacement for the other.
> 
> Did you give it enough time to burn in?  These devices require a significant amount of burn in time, maybe 200 or so hours to settle in.  Also for optimal effect, the iusb should be connected after the igalvanic according to ifi.


Yeah, sure. I have the units for a year already.
So, if your source is PC, I'm not surprised you hear some changes. The same happened in "iDSD micro BL" thread. PC users have a very low-quality USB output.


----------



## dougms3

squadgazzz said:


> Yeah, sure. I have the units for a year already.
> So, if your source is PC, I'm not surprised you hear some changes. The same happened in "iDSD micro BL" thread. PC users have a very low-quality USB output.


Lol, as opposed to apple super high quality usb output ?

Just curious how you determine the quality level of a usb output.


----------



## squadgazzz

dougms3 said:


> Lol, as opposed to apple super high quality usb output ?
> 
> Just curious how you determine the quality level of a usb output.


I didn't say that Apple has a high-quality output. Not even close. But PC has the worst one. Many PC/Windows users reported sound improvements with iGalvanic and most Apple users didn't.
One more thing is headphones. With Modhouse Argon Mk3 I can clearly hear some noise without iUSB, but with Audeze LCD-2C there's no difference(no noise with or without iUSB).


----------



## dougms3

squadgazzz said:


> I didn't say that Apple has a high-quality output. Not even close. But PC has the worst one. Many PC/Windows users reported sound improvements with iGalvanic and most Apple users didn't.
> One more thing is headphones. With Modhouse Argon Mk3 I can clearly hear some noise without iUSB, but with Audeze LCD-2C there's no difference(no noise with or without iUSB).


Since you brought it up again...

How you determine the quality level of a usb output?

Whats the difference between the apple usb port and pc usb port?

Just FYI, while the iusb does help reduce some noise, its primarily a reclocker.  The igalvanic, as suggested in the name, provides galvanic isolation.


----------



## squadgazzz

dougms3 said:


> Since you brought it up again...
> 
> How you determine the quality level of a usb output?
> 
> ...


In case reclockers/galvanic isolation units don't produce any benefits, I assume there's a good USB output =)
IFI's support itself confirmed that in some thread.

I don't really care about what exactly would help to change the sound. Galvanic isolation or reclocking. I'm after sound improvements.
I've ordered iPurifier-B to test iGalvanic alone without iUSB since I don't have a usb2.0 cable and have iPurifier-A only.


----------



## dougms3

squadgazzz said:


> In case reclockers/galvanic isolation units don't produce any benefits, I assume there's a good USB output =)
> IFI's support itself confirmed that in some thread.
> 
> I don't really care about what exactly would help to change the sound. Galvanic isolation or reclocking. I'm after sound improvements.
> I've ordered iPurifier-B to test iGalvanic alone without iUSB since I don't have a usb2.0 cable and have iPurifier-A only.


Good lord.

Theres so much incorrect info there, forget i asked.  Its obvious you have no answer to what makes a usb output better or lesser quality since you ignored the question so many times.


----------



## simon740

]eep said:


> I'm using the SMSL DP5 that has the same width as the Ares. But there is a cheaper alternative now without a built in dac called the DA9. I like it because I can use my Android phone with the Hiby music app (Hiby Link) to control it and pick what I want to play from my 2TB HD. You can play from wifi, DLNA, SD card slot or HD (SSD) via the USB port. I like the styling and quality but sometimes I have to start it up a few times because the initialization of the usb can confuse the cpu sometimes.
> I have quite a lot of inputs and outputs connected. But I always get it to do what I want. It's not always easy to get all ins and out working at the same time, not even on PC.
> 
> I also noticed if the covers are tagged inside the flacs it shows the covers of what I'm playing on my phone. My HD has a lot of my flacs with seperate front/back/cd/label pictures. That works great from pc with Foobar, only Hiby doest follow those rules and I get a generic Pic. Not a biggie but less than perfect. Not the fault of the SMSL really.


Hello,

so if I understand correctly...I dont need wire ethernet conection on this SD9 (plan to use only for my flac on the hdd and sd card) and connect directly with Hiby link? 

regards,
Simon


----------



## ]eep

simon740 said:


> Hello,
> 
> so if I understand correctly...I dont need wire ethernet conection on this SD9 (plan to use only for my flac on the hdd and sd card) and connect directly with Hiby link?
> 
> ...


No you don't need it. You can just hook up your USB had disk, insert an SD-card and control it with the knob, remote or your phone. Hiby-link uses the BT connection for that. The rj45 and wifi are for streaming via wifo or DLNA.


----------



## simon740

]eep said:


> No you don't need it. You can just hook up your USB had disk, insert an SD-card and control it with the knob, remote or your phone. Hiby-link uses the BT connection for that. The rj45 and wifi are for streaming via wifo or DLNA.


Thank you, hmm... this is interesting. Maybe I will order this SD9 and try it. I wasnt happy with Node 2021 and Ifi Zen Stream. Plus I don’t need streamer. Just a music player. Digital turntable. For my music.
regards,
Simon


----------



## ]eep

I had the same thing. I needed a way to play my large collection that I gathered over the years, but not use a noisy computer. This fits the bill. I don't care much about streaming. It has the danger that you keep skipping from song to song without actually listening. I really like the sound combined with the Ares, although atm I'm back to black. Even mono. 

Not all progress is improvement. You want dynamics? These old mono records are so vibrant and bold I begin to understand that stereo was thought of as a mere gimmick. I'm playing 60-70 year old records and they are unbelievable quiet. Only the music is limited to classical and jazz. But when you like the music it's really captivating.


----------



## szore

Hello Folks! I plan on reading through the forum, but just curious: I have decided to get the AresII DAC...the only question is what amp to pair it with? Does anyone have any down and dirty suggestions or favorites for about $1,000? Thanks in advance!


----------



## squadgazzz (Dec 29, 2021)

szore said:


> Hello Folks! I plan on reading through the forum, but just curious: I have decided to get the AresII DAC...the only question is what amp to pair it with? Does anyone have any down and dirty suggestions or favorites for about $1,000? Thanks in advance!


Flux FA-12, AudioGD Master 19,  Violectric v280. And ignore all of those Burson, Singxer, Schiit, etc mass-market. They're not competitors at all.


----------



## ]eep

szore said:


> Hello Folks! I plan on reading through the forum, but just curious: I have decided to get the AresII DAC...the only question is what amp to pair it with? Does anyone have any down and dirty suggestions or favorites for about $1,000? Thanks in advance!


I don't think I can answer that question because it is so undefined. I don't even know what YOU mean with 'amp'. Probably not the most common definition. 

If you want real advice; ask a real question. What is your definition (preferably in complete sentences without abbreviations), what do you want to drive with it, what power do you need, what are your preferences in sound, tonality, looks, size, connections etc etc. What are you comparing it to? The price also makes it so hard to recommend anything. There is so much competition. And also, price doesn't mean anything without context. 

If I had a 1000 $ I wouldn't spend it on an amplifier. Or save up for more. It's really hard to tell if and how much of an upgrade you would make and how long you would be happy or satisfied with it. How happy can you be with something 'someone on a forum recommended' compared to finding the grail on your quest?


----------



## szore (Dec 28, 2021)

]eep said:


> I don't think I can answer that question because it is so undefined. I don't even know what YOU mean with 'amp'. Probably not the most common definition.
> 
> If you want real advice; ask a real question. What is your definition (preferably in complete sentences without abbreviations), what do you want to drive with it, what power do you need, what are your preferences in sound, tonality, looks, size, connections etc etc. What are you comparing it to? The price also makes it so hard to recommend anything. There is so much competition. And also, price doesn't mean anything without context.
> 
> If I had a 1000 $ I wouldn't spend it on an amplifier. Or save up for more. It's really hard to tell if and how much of an upgrade you would make and how long you would be happy or satisfied with it. How happy can you be with something 'someone on a forum recommended' compared to finding the grail on your quest?


An amp without a built in DAC with balanced out that costs about $1K.


----------



## Kiats

szore said:


> An amp without a built in DAC with balanced out that costs about $1K.


Hey @szore ! good to see you here and congrats on the Ares II! Hmm... I am not sure how much and if it is available where you are, but I am partial to the Phatlab RASA. I recall it is not that far from the budget. I have heard very good things about the Singxer Class A amp as well. And that one is definitely under $1K.


----------



## PopZeus

szore said:


> Hello Folks! I plan on reading through the forum, but just curious: I have decided to get the AresII DAC...the only question is what amp to pair it with? Does anyone have any down and dirty suggestions or favorites for about $1,000? Thanks in advance!


If I had around 1k to spend on a (solid state) head amp, I’d be looking at the Burson Soloist 3x. Heck I might get there eventually myself.


----------



## dakchi

Hi,
I wanted to upgrade the USB firmware of my Ares II. Before doing that, I had to install the driver Thesycon V5.30.0.exe. After installing this driver and enabling USB output, Windows still does not recognize Ares II (warning: USB device unknown). I restarted the laptop, but still the same problem. I also tried to play music from my streamer (Ifi Zen Stream) through USB cable for the first time. The streamer does not give me USB output, which means that it not recognize Ares II neither. Then, I connected Ares II to my Macbook (no driver needed in MacOS normally): Ares does not show up in the system report.
Any idea why Ares is not recognized by Windows, MacOS and my streamer?
Thank you for your help


----------



## squadgazzz

dakchi said:


> Hi,
> I wanted to upgrade the USB firmware of my Ares II. Before doing that, I had to install the driver Thesycon V5.30.0.exe. After installing this driver and enabling USB output, Windows still does not recognize Ares II (warning: USB device unknown). I restarted the laptop, but still the same problem. I also tried to play music from my streamer (Ifi Zen Stream) through USB cable for the first time. The streamer does not give me USB output, which means that it not recognize Ares II neither. Then, I connected Ares II to my Macbook (no driver needed in MacOS normally): Ares does not show up in the system report.
> Any idea why Ares is not recognized by Windows, MacOS and my streamer?
> Thank you for your help


Why don't you message directly to Vinshine Audio? They respond very fast.


----------



## dakchi

squadgazzz said:


> Why don't you message directly to Vinshine Audio? They respond very fast.


I did but still haven't received any reply. That's why I'm asking here if someone had the same issue


----------



## dakchi

Now I have another problem: there is no sound out of Ares. The Dac does not recognize any entering signal through SPDIF. I had this issue sometimes randomly and it was fixed. Now, I have tested everything but still no sound. Anyone had this issue? what's the procedure to do a factory reset (if it exists)?


----------



## daytrader

dakchi said:


> Now I have another problem: there is no sound out of Ares. The Dac does not recognize any entering signal through SPDIF. I had this issue sometimes randomly and it was fixed. Now, I have tested everything but still no sound. Anyone had this issue? what's the procedure to do a factory reset (if it exists)?


Alvin will get back to you, I have yet to never not get a response back with 24 to 48 hrs, they are on a different time zone. Sounds like more of a problem then usb?  The last I knew they had a service center on the east and west coast. Good luck.


----------



## dougms3

dakchi said:


> Now I have another problem: there is no sound out of Ares. The Dac does not recognize any entering signal through SPDIF. I had this issue sometimes randomly and it was fixed. Now, I have tested everything but still no sound. Anyone had this issue? what's the procedure to do a factory reset (if it exists)?


Did this start happening after you did the firmware update?


----------



## ]eep

I can heartedly recommend the Audience Amp60 translinear current amp. It really blew me away and I'm using it instead of my 300B tube amplifier. Maybe a tad less mellifluous but a lot tighter in the bass and immense space. When I first switched it on I used Bluetooth first. I didn't believe my ears how good it sounded. And that is supposed to be less than the line-in. It is, and that was only the BT. It is clear, open, fluid, neutral yet musical, no harshness whatsoever but great detail. And it looks awesome. 

Only problem is, it's about 1/3 of your budget. If you know how to find it. audience.net.cn 

What you might really consider are the SMSL amps like the OA200, VMV A1 and A2. All incredible value. The A1 only has 10W (class A) but sounds great.


----------



## dakchi

dougms3 said:


> Did this start happening after you did the firmware update?


I haven't been able to update firmware because Ares is not recognized by my laptop after installing the driver


----------



## simon740

Every day again Ares II surprises me with good sound. I’m not even sure if I want to buy a Pontus II.


----------



## McPh1st0

That's what i said until i got one...

Now i am saying the same about Venus/Terminator...


----------



## daytrader

McPh1st0 said:


> That's what i said until i got one...
> 
> Now i am saying the same about Venus/Terminator...  I


I went from the Ares 2 to the Pontus 2 and found a worthwhile cost vs performed ratio but I remember the first few days with the Ares after break in and it floored me!  So must say to Simon740, if you are good, then 100% stay there unless you have the money that won’t be missed.  Spend the cash elsewhere.  I’m serious!


----------



## NehPets

Having had my interest piqued, a few months ago I bought a chip-based NOS DAC (8 chips actually; 4 per channel) and I have to say, I preferred its sound over that of Ares II. In most cases, the differences were minor: slightly wider sound stage than Ares, with about the same depth, but slightly less height. The NOS DAC was a little more "essy", with a bit more extension top and bottom, but that might have been an illusion, caused by the more impactful presentation, with notes more delineated than I hear from Ares II in any mode, be it "notNOS" or OS. All of this is based on SE output, since that's all the NOS DAC does, but overall, I'd say it's like an Ares, but in HD.
I'd still have it if it wasn't for a manufacturing defect that, to my mind, was unacceptable in a device costing €150, let alone one costing €1500 as this one did, so I had to return it. Sometimes, the user experience just trumps sonic performance ...


----------



## TheRealDz

NehPets said:


> Having had my interest piqued, a few months ago I bought a chip-based NOS DAC (8 chips actually; 4 per channel) and I have to say, I preferred its sound over that of Ares II. In most cases, the differences were minor: slightly wider sound stage than Ares, with about the same depth, but slightly less height. The NOS DAC was a little more "essy", with a bit more extension top and bottom, but that might have been an illusion, caused by the more impactful presentation, with notes more delineated than I hear from Ares II in any mode, be it "notNOS" or OS. All of this is based on SE output, since that's all the NOS DAC does, but overall, I'd say it's like an Ares, but in HD.
> I'd still have it if it wasn't for a manufacturing defect that, to my mind, was unacceptable in a device costing €150, let alone one costing €1500 as this one did, so I had to return it. Sometimes, the user experience just trumps sonic performance ...


Which DAC was it?  I had a similar experience...


----------



## Djankie

I'm getting my Ares 2 soon. Now I'm wondering whether I should get the pontus 2 instead. Or that money is better saved somewhere else.


----------



## daytrader

Djankie said:


> I'm getting my Ares 2 soon. Now I'm wondering whether I should get the pontus 2 instead. Or that money is better saved somewhere else.


If you can afford it, do it, if not the Ares 2 is really good.  I use my Ares 2 in my Stax headphone system and it’s spectacular.  I use my Pontus  2 in my home audio set up and its very good too.  So I’ll pass on this little bit of advice, if going into a headphone stack I’d say no need to go bigger than the Ares, where the extra “authority and impact” that the Pontus gives won’t be missed. But in a home rig system the more powerful Pontus might be worth the stretch?  Again, if you can spend the money comfortable, if you have to go with the Ares within either set up you would be fine based on experience with both models side by side.


----------



## NehPets

TheRealDz said:


> Which DAC was it?  I had a similar experience...


Metrum Amethyst.


----------



## Djankie

daytrader said:


> If you can afford it, do it, if not the Ares 2 is really good.  I use my Ares 2 in my Stax headphone system and it’s spectacular.  I use my Pontus  2 in my home audio set up and its very good too.  So I’ll pass on this little bit of advice, if going into a headphone stack I’d say no need to go bigger than the Ares, where the extra “authority and impact” that the Pontus gives won’t be missed. But in a home rig system the more powerful Pontus might be worth the stretch?  Again, if you can spend the money comfortable, if you have to go with the Ares within either set up you would be fine based on experience with both models side by side.



Thanks for your advice. It will be in my headphone stack. I will keep the Ares 2 then. All those "pontus 2 is much better" posts just kept me wondering whether I made a mistake? 

I cannot hear them side by side without ordering both, so I will have to do it with online posts.


----------



## daytrader (Dec 31, 2021)

Djankie said:


> Thanks for your advice. It will be in my headphone stack. I will keep the Ares 2 then. All those "pontus 2 is much better" posts just kept me wondering whether I made a mistake?
> 
> I cannot hear them side by side without ordering both, so I will have to do it with online posts.


The Pontus has a more powerful presentation I’m guessing because of the better power supply but with your stack you won’t miss anything.  The tonal balance and midrange magic is close enough not to be a concern.  When I asked Alvin about my stack he told me exactly what I’m telling you.  So no worries and enjoy.  Don’t forget about the break in period, it sounded confused to me till about 3 or 4 days of constant play. Then all became as it should.


----------



## simon740

daytrader said:


> I went from the Ares 2 to the Pontus 2 and found a worthwhile cost vs performed ratio but I remember the first few days with the Ares after break in and it floored me!  So must say to Simon740, if you are good, then 100% stay there unless you have the money that won’t be missed.  Spend the cash elsewhere.  I’m serious!


Thank you. Im thinking about Pontus II because I have Exposure amp and Totem Acoustic Mani 2 speakers and maybe Ares II is holding the system back. 

regards,
Simon


----------



## daytrader (Jan 1, 2022)

simon740 said:


> Thank you. Im thinking about Pontus II because I have Exposure amp and Totem Acoustic Mani 2 speakers and maybe Ares II is holding the system back.
> 
> regards,
> Simon


With that system I very much agree with you.

Cheers and Happy New Year!


----------



## ]eep

simon740 said:


> Thank you. Im thinking about Pontus II because I have Exposure amp and Totem Acoustic Mani 2 speakers and maybe Ares II is holding the system back.
> 
> regards,
> Simon


I don't agree. 

I agree on the maybe but I think it is not likely. There will always be some improvements but probably not as much as you would like. While your speakers and amp are very good and (I assume complement each other very well) they come from a very different philosophy of reproducing audio. I couldn't find anything on the filter of the Totem, I can see by the specs however that it is very controlled, very filtered. It tries to get physics defying amounts of bass from a small cabinet (isobaric woofers, elaborate filtering, metal tweeter). At the expense of impedance, sensitivity and musicality and liveliness. Control everything and use the brute force of modern amplifiers to compensate. The more components you use, the more musical information you lose. 

Denafrips on the other hand focuses on the minimalist approach. Use as few components as possible with the best quality for the shortest signal path. 

What happens when either approach upgrades? Ones uses even more elaborate filtering, the other uses even  better components. This might be an exaggeration but you get the idea; this might not get the best results when combined. 

What would be more in the line of one clear vision, and imo a better upgrade, is to look into simpler high sensitivity speakers combined with a smaller power more refined amp. It's about the first Watt of power that matters, not muscle. For speakers something like Audio Note, Pearl Acoustics etc. 

Personally I'm not a fan of dome tweeters. They almost always have a certain muffled agressive sound. I find it hard to explain, but once you hear what electrostatic speakers can do, like ribbons and other planar tweeters, you can instantly recognize domes. That's why make my speakers with AMT or planar tweeters and use woofers that are light and easy to filter. The last pair I made had almost no filter at all and sounded so open, lively and musical. I love them, and so does my client. And I could drive them well with a 3W tube amp. 

I'm not saying you need to try a tube amp, there are other excellent, low power class A amps but it fits more in the minimalistic design philosophy. Always when I enter the Audio Note booth at any show the music comes alive. It's not about a demo but about the music. Same for 47-labs (unless the show is too noisy). And those brands have used R2R Dacs for the longest time for a reason.


----------



## simon740

]eep said:


> I don't agree.
> 
> I agree on the maybe but I think it is not likely. There will always be some improvements but probably not as much as you would like. While your speakers and amp are very good and (I assume complement each other very well) they come from a very different philosophy of reproducing audio. I couldn't find anything on the filter of the Totem, I can see by the specs however that it is very controlled, very filtered. It tries to get physics defying amounts of bass from a small cabinet (isobaric woofers, elaborate filtering, metal tweeter). At the expense of impedance, sensitivity and musicality and liveliness. Control everything and use the brute force of modern amplifiers to compensate. The more components you use, the more musical information you lose.
> 
> ...


Thank you for this info. But I will not change my amp. Maybe I will trade Totem for another speakers.
regards,
Simon


----------



## daytrader (Jan 7, 2022)

simon740 said:


> Thank you for this info. But I will not change my amp. Maybe I will trade Totem for another speakers.
> regards,
> Simon


FWIW, Tarun, “A British Audiophile” on YouTube has a complete Exposure system.  He seems to know what he’s talking about based on what I hear,  He reviewed the Ares 2 then the Pontus 2 and found the Pontus a great compliment to his system, keeping it. Said the Ares was better value but the Pontus was just plain better than the entry level Denafrips, for what it’s worth.  This from someone who actually owns Exposure amps and has heard  both dacs on Exposure amps + ProAc bookshelf speakers.  😉


----------



## ]eep

I hope you understand I do t want to push anything, just trying to open your horizon. 

I really enjoy Tarins channel. He doesn't have a lot of gear under review and not many things to compare with, but he is so  relaxed and down to earth. No hype. I really like and respect him. I also enjoy his proper English. 

I also am not a reviewer. I only know what I buy. I don't have a store to frequent anymore. But I did gain a lot of expertise from modifying stuff and making my own speakers. Often shops and reviewers are not very knowledgeable on what makes gear sound good. They always review a component 'as is', not knowing why it sounds like it does. I am not saying I do (it's far to complex matter for that) but there are indicators. Like input caps, Muse elco's. Yeah, I understand why that amp sounds like that. Sometimes manufacturers save money on the completely wrong parts. 

That's why I think it is important to keep a clear vision. What strengths add up and which ones don't.


----------



## simon740

For now, I will keep Ares II. It is a very good DAC. Either way, I still have to add a good power cord because I have a regular one now. But I traded Totem Mani 2 for Graham Audio LS6. I am much happier with this combination. Graham fits in nicely with Exposure. Pontus will have to wait a little longer  

regards,
Simon


----------



## Djankie

simon740 said:


> For now, I will keep Ares II. It is a very good DAC. Either way, I still have to add a good power cord because I have a regular one now. But I traded Totem Mani 2 for Graham Audio LS6. I am much happier with this combination. Graham fits in nicely with Exposure. Pontus will have to wait a little longer
> 
> regards,
> Simon



What effect does a power chord have?


----------



## daytrader

simon740 said:


> For now, I will keep Ares II. It is a very good DAC. Either way, I still have to add a good power cord because I have a regular one now. But I traded Totem Mani 2 for Graham Audio LS6. I am much happier with this combination. Graham fits in nicely with Exposure. Pontus will have to wait a little longer
> 
> regards,
> Simon


Speakers do have the most impact in one‘s system, for your pleasure.  Dacs are almost a last thought behind amplifications and sources.  Make a move to a Pontus after your system is built to your satisfaction and you will find an even better experience with any dac you chose in any future plans.  You might even find the Ares just righ!


----------



## JaquesGelee

After a few weeks in use now, I could definetly recommend to flash to the actual firmware 3.12.


----------



## daytrader

JaquesGelee said:


> After a few weeks in use now, I could definetly recommend to flash to the actual firmware 3.12.


What did you flash, the Pontus?  Alvin highly recommended it too.


----------



## daytrader (Jan 5, 2022)

Djankie said:


> What effect does a power chord have?


Some will say it does, others not so much.  I think they can act as filters to prevent noise and thus alter the sq if audible or not, not sure?  Maybe in a highly resolving system?


----------



## dougms3

Djankie said:


> What effect does a power chord have?


I have a JPS Labs digital ac-x, Furutech FP 314AG, Furutech FP-S55N, and BMI Whale Elite power cables.  I swapped them around quite a lot to see how it sounds with each component.  

Unfortunately, since I don't have more than one of each, its hard to say specifically what one does since I have to swap it with another component.  But I will say they all sound significantly different and drastically better than the cheap $5 stock power cables.  

The FP-S55n enhances soundstage, warmth, bass and body, sounds very open.  The FP314ag is similar to the FP-S55n but to a far lesser degree.  The digital ac-x works best with the Ares as it is the most powerful noise reducing cable in my collection, the Furutech cables work well also but they're not as resolving.  The FP-S55n really synergizes well with my audio-gd m19.  The m19 is an analytical, neutral signature and for me the added warmth and bass is a nice addition to its signature.

There is the reduction of noise in the system as well that these cables provide in addition to the sound characteristics.

What I have discovered in my journey is that if there is noise in the sound, its impossible to isolate by listening.  You will recognize the noise reduction if it happens because microdetails shine through clearer and more defined, imaging and separation is improved.  

That hiss that you hear when there are silent pauses in the music, that is noise.  Some people are not as sensitive to it as others.  Perhaps its easier to understand if I put it this way, if white, pink, brown, etc noise were to play in your headphones at the same time as the music at a low volume, would you be able to isolate it by listening?


----------



## Pharmaboy (Jan 5, 2022)

(removed/redundant)


----------



## Djankie

Hi I just received my ares. I want it to burn it it in for 10 days straight before listening. I was wondering if this is enough (see picture) or do I need to play music via x?


----------



## simon740

Djankie said:


> Hi I just received my ares. I want it to burn it it in for 10 days straight before listening. I was wondering if this is enough (see picture) or do I need to play music via x?


Just live it ON 24/7 for 10 days.


----------



## daytrader

simon740 said:


> Just live it ON 24/7 for 10 days.


Agreed, and play your music as normal.  10 days will pass before you know it.  It’s interesting to hear it change.  As for power on vs standby, I leave mine powered up 24/7, the energy consumed is minimal.  I do go to standby when I leave for long periods of days.


----------



## ]eep (Jan 6, 2022)

Djankie said:


> What effect does a power chord have?


I found out that the biggest difference is when you plug it in. 

Sorry. I couldn't resist. You have no idea how often it happens to me in the workshop that either the dust collector or my sander or w/e isn't plugged in after moving workstation.

I do use power filtering and use audiophile grade powerchords (not expensive though) but frankly, I don't hear a lot of difference. Maybe I forgot what it sounds like with zip chords. Or I don't have much pollution on my electrical system (just the fridge mostly). I did take proper care of grounding. That is very important. Especially with phono-amplification.
Routing the wires properly and keeping them seperate is also important. So the thick shielded chords do make life easier. It's also something I do automatically.

I think it's a difficult subject. I know it makes a difference but I refuse to try out cables costing hundreds of dollars. That money is much better spent elsewhere.


Also, I leave my Ares on always. It hardly uses any power. It's keeps everything in a steady state. Only I don't see any reason not to listen to it the first days. It won't sound horrible, just gives you the chance to learn something. A sort of personal calibration. Am I imagining things or is there a difference. I heard a difference that I don't hear with power cables.


----------



## JaquesGelee

Djankie said:


> Hi I just received my ares. I want it to burn it it in for 10 days straight before listening. I was wondering if this is enough (see picture) or do I need to play music via x?


Turn it on and listen to music. Done.


----------



## viggen

I think I read somewhere that R2R dacs require music to be played for it to break in.  Something to do with giving the resistors some activity.


----------



## JaquesGelee (Jan 7, 2022)

viggen said:


> I think I read somewhere that R2R dacs require music to be played for it to break in.  Something to do with giving the resistors some activity.


As only for my experience i could say, the Ares 2 sounds good for me right out of the box.

I'm not sure at all, if i should believe in it at all or if i am another victim of psychoacoustics.

But what i recognized is, that the circuit benenfits from permanent juice or even needs a bit warming up time before offering the full potential when power switch was turned off some time.

Yeah, capacitors and their construction...Break in...physics...

If you actually have to do such a science to break in your gear that it sounds good...
Then the developers should sit down at their drawing board again.

But everybody on his own. Only my modest opinion.

I still recommend to use the gear, make own experiences and enjoying the music.

That's the most important thing! More important as to seek the holy grail and burn our money.

We should stop to compare and analyze the gear too much. And also don't believe in the most reviewers. They follow a trend that i personally don't like.
Another time only my modest opinion.

How does the gear work at all? Do i need it? Do i like it? Is it affordable for me? Let's go.

It's all about the music.

Cheers


*Aunt Edit(h):
If your power is crappy right out of the wall, no hundreds or thousands of dollar powercable will change it.


----------



## sajunky (Jan 7, 2022)

I agree with @JaquesGelee. DACs (R2R specifically) need to be powered on for a week or two before it can reach full potential. There are number of things, like relaxing physical stress of components that had been heated up to 200+ degrees (C) during soldering. Science support this view providing statistics that during the first few months a failure rate is the highest. After an initial burnin, if used regularly it only needs a half an hour before reaching the operational temperature.

With Ares is as above. More expensive devices require longer period of burning, the main cause are low jitter clock oscilators. When a level of transparency increases, our brain becomes more sensitive to distortions, very subtle changes can be heard. On the first turn you will take your attention on power cables, then conditioners, interconnect cables.

One important comment was made. If after an initial burnin you like a sound, enjoy music. A key measure is not sound properties, but how long you can listen before getting tired. Make a note of a duration of each session. Do it increase? How your music library has increased during the time? These are indicators that you can work on improving a sound. If negative, then give up and find a different brand, but don't trust reviews, most of them are paid, well known products are overhyped. You can always get better value in non-advertised products, end users pay for cost of gifts and advertising.


----------



## viggen (Jan 7, 2022)

JaquesGelee said:


> As only for my experience i could say, the Ares 2 sounds good for me right out of the box.
> 
> I'm not sure at all, if i should believe in it at all or if i am another victim of psychoacoustics.
> 
> ...


was i comparing? over analyzing?


----------



## BenSherman

Don't forget to also tune the Ares II...


----------



## ]eep

BenSherman said:


> Don't forget to also tune the Ares II...



Really? That's already the 3rd or 4th time this gets linked. Controversial too. People who are close minded take contributions like that as an opportunity to ridicule what their mind chooses to ignore. Like the villagers mocking the Wright brothers. 

I don't believe in it, but I see why this might do something.


----------



## viggen

]eep said:


> Really? That's already the 3rd or 4th time this gets linked. Controversial too. People who are close minded take contributions like that as an opportunity to ridicule what their mind chooses to ignore. Like the villagers mocking the Wright brothers.
> 
> I don't believe in it, but I see why this might do something.


you should buy one and try it out.  it'll be a hoot.


----------



## JaquesGelee

viggen said:


> was i comparing? over analyzing?


Pardon? Was nothing against you.

Cheers


----------



## BenSherman

]eep said:


> I don't believe in it, but I see why this might do something



I was as skeptical as the next guy - but I tried it and it really did make a difference.

It's logical that a device generating an analogue signal would benefit in resonating freely.

This is actually part two of his videos on tweaking the Ares II.


----------



## dougms3

BenSherman said:


> I was as skeptical as the next guy - but I tried it and it really did make a difference.
> 
> It's logical that a device generating an analogue signal would benefit in resonating freely.
> 
> This is actually part two of his videos on tweaking the Ares II.


Not gonna break a leg to try it, costs nothing, why not try it before saying you believe or don't believe in it.  If it works, free upgrade, if it doesn't, you wasted two minutes.

Where the hell to get an m2 copper washer though?


----------



## ]eep (Jan 8, 2022)

dougms3 said:


> Not gonna break a leg to try it, costs nothing, why not try it before saying you believe or don't believe in it.  If it works, free upgrade, if it doesn't, you wasted two minutes.
> 
> Where the hell to get an m2 copper washer though?


Ugh. One of the very  few components I didn't open up right away on receiving it. It's built in tightly in my new bamboo rack with all wires routed and tucked away out of view. It'll take a lot more effort than 2 minutes.
And I've got better things waiting for me. A new 12" tonearm to change and a new tubed phono that needs a lot more than just unscrewing and tuberolling. Also started a new pair of speakers yesterday. Compared to tuning loudspeaker filters or correctly adjusting a cartridge I can't really be bothered with a tiny tweak like that.

Copper washers. Hardware store I suppose. I don't even bother going there but for larger purchases. They get very irritated if you ask for tiny specific stuff. That's why I buy those things on Aliexpress. Shrink tube, washers, hex screws, terminals, resistors, wire etc etc. If your not in a hurry it's easy and super cheap.


----------



## dougms3

]eep said:


> Ugh. One of the very  few components I didn't open up right away on receiving it. It's built in tightly in my new bamboo rack with all wires routed and tucked away out of view. It'll take a lot more effort than 2 minutes.
> And I've got better things waiting for me. A new 12" tonearm to change and a new tubed phono that needs a lot more than just unscrewing and tuberolling. Also started a new pair of speakers yesterday. Compared to tuning loudspeaker filters or correctly adjusting a cartridge I can't really be bothered with a tiny tweak like that.


It may be worthwhile.  It may provide a bigger improvement than you think since its near the top of the audio chain.  

Downstream effect is real.


----------



## JaquesGelee

dougms3 said:


> Not gonna break a leg to try it, costs nothing, why not try it before saying you believe or don't believe in it.  If it works, free upgrade, if it doesn't, you wasted two minutes.
> 
> Where the hell to get an m2 copper washer though?


I wouldn't recommend to do it, especially if the device is already longer in use.


----------



## dougms3

JaquesGelee said:


> I wouldn't recommend to do it, especially if the device is already longer in use.


What does that mean?  What do you think is going to happen?

I already did it and it works for me, I had the system on and listening to music while I was adjusting it and I could tell the difference.


----------



## daytrader (Jan 8, 2022)

dougms3 said:


> It may be worthwhile.  It may provide a bigger improvement than you think since its near the top of the audio chain.
> 
> Downstream effect is real.


I don’t buy it either but worth a try to see if you own the Ares 2, it’s case is pretty live sounding.  Some audiophiles like running their gear without cages or top plates or speakers without grills or components on points, it’s all easy to do and can help the end results.  What the hell else do we have to do, most folks think we are not sane regardless.


----------



## JaquesGelee (Jan 9, 2022)

dougms3 said:


> What does that mean?  What do you think is going to happen?
> 
> I already did it and it works for me, I had the system on and listening to music while I was adjusting it and I could tell the difference.


If the screws are that tight like he mention and the interconnects and the pcb are deformed over time plus temperatures up and down, you could get microcracks in the board. Surely, the Ares 2 is no GPU...But i wouldn't do that, especially in an older unit.

I've seen that a lot on watercooled GPU PCB's f.e. and other parts by switching the cooler and pull the screws. They died over time, cause of microcracks and loosing contacts.

You can laugh on it. But i laugh, if you could hear any difference by doing this. If yes, i hope you use perfect soldered XLR cables.

And i would never do something like this, when the unit is powered...

But all is fine, everybody on his own...

Even sourced by a tip of a man who put peppermills in his wall and only sells units, he dissamble before purchase and call it service...

Cheers


----------



## dougms3

JaquesGelee said:


> If the screws are that tight like he mention and the interconnects and the pcb are deformed over time plus temperatures up and down, you could get microcracks in the board. Surely, the Ares 2 is no GPU...But i wouldn't do that, especially in an older unit.
> 
> I've seen that a lot on watercooled GPU PCB's f.e. and other parts by switching the cooler and pull the screws. They died over time, cause of microcracks and loosing contacts.
> 
> ...


The screws are not going to be that tight.  We're not talking GPU levels of tightness here.  If the screws are overly tightened from the factory, you already have a problem to begin with.

You are absolutely correct, it is not a GPU, so probably not worth comparing it to, since a GPU reaches temperatures a dac would never see.  

You can laugh or dont laugh, not sure why pointing fingers is important to you, if you don't want to try it, you won't know so why try to ridicule or discourage others?

Everytime you go outside, you risk getting hit by a car, train, plane, infection...Should you never go outside and convince yourself and others that theres nothing to see out there anyway and laugh at the people who go outside?  Reminds of the Fox and the Grapes tale from Aesop's fables.

I don't know much about the guy but I do know that washer and loosening that screw while tapping did improve the sound.  Exactly as he said, it sounds more open.  Theres no risk in that whatsoever.  Any words of discouragement on that one?

If you tried it and you hear nothing, its going to be either it doesn't work, you didn't do it right, or the difference is not enough for your hearing sensitivity level (surprise, some people have better hearing that others).  But you didn't even try it and you're sure it doesn't do anything and it doesn't work for others...  

Theres things in this hobby that don't make sense but sometimes they do and if we as hobbyists benefit from this, why not take advantage instead of trying to discourage, insult, shame others.  Maybe they're full of crap or maybe its real, but at least try it for yourself first before having an opinion.  If its not "worth" it to you, thats fine, it might be worth it to others, no need to be a negative Nancy and crap on them.

Cheers


----------



## JaquesGelee (Jan 10, 2022)

dougms3 said:


> The screws are not going to be that tight.  We're not talking GPU levels of tightness here.  If the screws are overly tightened from the factory, you already have a problem to begin with.
> 
> You are absolutely correct, it is not a GPU, so probably not worth comparing it to, since a GPU reaches temperatures a dac would never see.
> 
> ...


Therefore i wrote, everybody on his own..

It was an example for PCB's and screws to transfer an example to other hardware...
Screws on a watercooled GPU are less tight as these interconnect screws. To be concrete, the pcb around, rest is adhesive.

Rest of your text is well written, but your example? No comparison...

There is not that much poison in my words as you read in them...

I haven't done it by myself, cause i've heard a comparison between a unit from this guy ("mod" done by him) and a unit directly from vinshine audio 1:1 with a switch.

Absolutely no difference. Cause you couldn't hear it, it doesn't mean isn't there...It does nothing...

If you have ever soldered a XLR cable on your own, you should understand...

yeah, try it, listen to it for a few minutes time and no costs. What could be a result? Damaging a solderjoint, if the screw is too loose or even the circuit...wow...nice improvement.

There is also no way to turn a screw wrong. Are you doing it to every device you got?

This is simply Snake Oil and this guy? No word about after i mailed with him. But it is cheap Snake Oil. Not like jitterbugs, overpriced cables aso. As for me, i burned enough money to could stand this opinion.

There is also a special audiophile fluid out there to brush it to the internal board for a better sound. You should try it. An amazing improvement.

Please also pay attention to uniform signal direction and the bending radii of the cables. Otherwise the effect will be lost. Mark with arrows for safety.

You should also try to crimp the RCA Inputs, less tightness to the contact. More Air, wider soundstage and Microdetails... Sorry, but this is absolutely bull**** in my modest opinion.

Like written before, do it like you wan't. As for me, people shouldn't believe in this and also don't turn screws on a powered unit, never ever...or connected xlr cables.

Maybe my english isn't good enough, ending up that harsh.


Cheers


----------



## Djankie (Jan 10, 2022)

Today was 6th day with my Ares and my mind is blown!!! Did not know that a DAC could make that much of a difference!


----------



## BenSherman

Djankie said:


> Today was day 6th  with my Ares. And my mind is blown. Did now know that a DAC could make that much of a difference!



Completely agree. I've heard many people say that the DAC only makes about 10% difference to the sound - but I feel it make as much difference as the amplifier. In fact, the difference between using my phone's own chip DAC vs the Ares II is more noticeable than changing between my SS and tube amps.

I love the sheer space and beauty the Ares II gives the music. I cannot imagine what going up to the Pontus or Venus would sound like - I can't believe music could sound any better!!


----------



## sajunky (Jan 10, 2022)

BenSherman said:


> I love the sheer space and beauty the Ares II gives the music. I cannot imagine what going up to the Pontus or Venus would sound like - I can't believe music could sound any better!!


Those two would need bigger washers.


----------



## BenSherman

sajunky said:


> Those two would need bigger washers.



Damn - the cost of the washers would just push them out of my budget.


----------



## ]eep

After reading the last page of posts, I think you are all right. Each from their perspective. I believe there can be only one absolute truth, but that doesn't mean it's simple. Environment or tiny variations can make experiments unrepeatable. Just be aware when they're unfalsifiable (once you twisted the screw and 'released the tension' you can't undo it by twisting it again). You might be fooling yourself or others. 

Some people sell snake oil, but you don't get into a generally improfitable  business if you don't like it. So most often it's not malintent. I do find sometimes some people have turned cynical or callous from not being successful for the longest time and feel exploited for their enthusiasm. They're just like people. 

---

I can imagine how you can be blown away by something far more than expected. I just started playing mono vinyl with a real mono top of the line cartridge (until recently, Miyajima Zero). I have so many old mono recordings to warrant that. You would think it's the wrong way forward. I expected less campfire noise at the cost of soundstage and a bit stale sound. Boy was I wrong. Sound is big and bold, fast, dynamic and with an unbelievable naturalness. And such a quiet background on all but >70 y/o or beat up disc's. It's like stepping into a time machine. So real. 

We made so much progress over the last 70 years. But has it really gotten better? Yes we have pulled the sound into 2 dimensions, or even 3, but has it really improved the feeling of 'being there'? 

If I listen to the same records on YouTube, over the Ares (no blame, I mean not the weak link), sometimes even the same cartridge, it sounds whimpy, different, not as engaging. So yes, there's still ground to be gained.


----------



## BenSherman

I run my Android phone (Pixel 4 XL) straight into my Ares II with a USB-C to USB-B cable, and play music from Qobuz (through the USB Audio Player PRO app).

My question is this - would using a different digital source (my desktop PC for example) make any difference to the sound?

I assume not - as we're only talking the transfer of digital binary code to the DAC, but I may well be wrong (I haven't tried it as it would mean moving my whole setup to another room).

I understand also that PC USB outputs can be noisy. Is this also the case with phone USB-C outputs? Or are they considered a clean source?


----------



## dougms3

BenSherman said:


> I run my Android phone (Pixel 4 XL) straight into my Ares II with a USB-C to USB-B cable, and play music from Qobuz (through the USB Audio Player PRO app).
> 
> My question is this - would using a different digital source (my desktop PC for example) make any difference to the sound?
> 
> ...


USB will be noisy regardless if its A, B, or C.  It carries data as well as power in the same cable, its inevitable that there will be interference.  

You could try and ifi isilencer or idefender to reduce noise, I have both and I think they'll yield significant improvements in your setup.

They have a deal on Amazon for $90 for the combo, or ipurifier + isilencer combo, if it doesn't work for you, return it. No risk, but I don't think you'll return it.


----------



## sajunky

It can be a different opinion on that, but I would just use iDefender instead.


----------



## dakchi

The other option is to replace your streamer by an Ifi Zen Stream. It has iFi filters embedded in the SPDIF and USB output. The software is not the best in the market though


----------



## squadgazzz (Jan 12, 2022)

BenSherman said:


> My question is this - would using a different digital source (my desktop PC for example) make any difference to the sound?


Of course, there's a difference between devices. There's a difference even in digital cables.
At the moment I can't find an article which in-depth describes digital output. But there's not just 0/1 going through.
It's a signal after all and your DAC doesn't verify every bit of information.

UPD: here is another helpful article https://www.nordost.com/downloads/Digital Audio Cables - How Can They Make A Difference.pdf


----------



## squadgazzz

BenSherman said:


> I understand also that PC USB outputs can be noisy. Is this also the case with phone USB-C outputs? Or are they considered a clean source?


I have compared PC and MacBook with Ares II. PC output is very noisy/crapy and you have to add something like IFI iUSB 3.0, iGalvanic, iPurifier to clean the sound. With MacBook there's no difference with or without IFI's products.


----------



## ]eep

BenSherman said:


> I run my Android phone (Pixel 4 XL) straight into my Ares II with a USB-C to USB-B cable, and play music from Qobuz (through the USB Audio Player PRO app).
> 
> My question is this - would using a different digital source (my desktop PC for example) make any difference to the sound?
> 
> ...


A phone is a much cleaner source than a pc, simply because a phone runs on DC. A pc runs on AC, with unshielded cables inside broadcasting all the noise from the ac power lines. This noise effects your soundcard etc. 

I have used pc for decades, upgrading  it all the time. Now I use an android phone or dap, with the right app that sends direct out to USB, the sound is better. The only thing with a dap is, compared to a phone or pc, is that it has less processing power so I get a hickup changing songs with highres flac or dsd/dsf, when the file is reading+decoding. And amount of storage. But that last point is getting less important every year. 

A usb-c output or any digital or analog output is never truly a clean source. Maybe i²s could be better, depending on the length of the cable, because it's  not a multiplexed signal. But it's more meant to transport signal from ic to ic, hence IIS or i²s. USB sends the file to be decoded close to the dac chip. IIS sends the raw unprotected data so decoding and dac are a long distance apart. Only the decoding can be done with a lot more processing power for any post-processing you like (like upsampling  or room correction etc). If you think that increases the amount of information of the file. I like mine unadulterated.


----------



## ]eep

squadgazzz said:


> I have compared PC and MacBook with Ares II. PC output is very noisy/crapy and you have to add something like IFI iUSB 3.0, iGalvanic, iPurifier to clean the sound. With MacBook there's no difference with or without IFI's products.


You are comparing Apples and other kinds of fruit. Not every computer is closed source. You can build your computer any way you like it, chose any operating system, processor or soundcard you like. Plus that it answers no question asked here. 

I'm sure apples are the only fruit worth mentioning...


----------



## squadgazzz

]eep said:


> You are comparing Apples and other kinds of fruit. Not every computer is closed source. You can build your computer any way you like it, chose any operating system, processor or soundcard you like. Plus that it answers no question asked here.
> 
> I'm sure apples are the only fruit worth mentioning...


Yes, but it would be much better to switch from PC to Apple for example instead of collecting a lot of IFI stuff which would cost you even more.


----------



## sajunky

squadgazzz said:


> Yes, but it would be much better to switch from PC to Apple for example instead of collecting a lot of IFI stuff which would cost you even more.


Nah, I was using a MAC laptop for couple months, it is not cleaner, even working on batteries.


----------



## BenSherman

To be fair - I haven't noticed any noise or interference whatsoever using my Android phone. It's as clear as a bell. I just wondered if other sources changed the sound. For example - could my PC give a bassier sounds, or more spacious soundstage?


----------



## dougms3

BenSherman said:


> To be fair - I haven't noticed any noise or interference whatsoever using my Android phone. It's as clear as a bell. I just wondered if other sources changed the sound. For example - could my PC give a bassier sounds, or more spacious soundstage?


As I mentioned before, you can't hear noise mixed in with the music, you're not going to be able to isolate it by ear.  The only way to know if its been reduced is after its gone.  When noise is removed, microdetails will be become more audible and clear, there will be increased soundstage, imaging and separation.

Try the ifi devices and you'll see what I mean.


----------



## ]eep

dougms3 said:


> As I mentioned before, you can't hear noise mixed in with the music, you're not going to be able to isolate it by ear.  The only way to know if its been reduced is after its gone.  When noise is removed, microdetails will be become more audible and clear, there will be increased soundstage, imaging and separation.
> 
> Try the ifi devices and you'll see what I mean.


I'm trying to understand this. It doesn't make any sense. If noise is mixed in with the music, you can and will hear it the more revealing your system is. If can't get rid of it without penalties. It won't be the only thing you lose. 

What i also don't understand is why you bring up the ifi devices for computer when he just said he uses an android phone that sounds clear as a bell. With the right app (that produces USB direct output) it's a really, really, really good source. It works off a DC battery. Any pc is to producing EMI noise to a datastream of music as a tiled swimmingpool is to echoing noise for a dolphinarium. Thanks to the AC pollution radiating unshielded power supply and cables. 

I get it, you can try it out for free etc. But it's very unlikely to better android on DC. And believe; me nothing is free. Either Ben or ifi will be paying in time and money, no guarantee to the result. 

If jitter is your concern, I doubt the ifi +PC will improve anything. 

If you just mean noise in general, it might not be the source. Many amps are not dead silent, changing the source won't help one bit. Many speakers have convoluted filters with cheap parts. Changing the source won't help one iota. Micro details can get stuck anywhere. I use android as source and I have amazing silence and micro detail and space.


----------



## halo26

I am trying out my new Denefrips Ares 2.  Asgaard3 amp.   I have my music (mostly classical, almost all of it CD quality flags ie 44.1k) on a microsd in an android tablet (fire HD +).  I have a few questions:
(1)  what software and settings are the best to get bit perfect quality, no different than if I was  connecting my CD player with optical cable? (I have power amp and foobar2000, but an having trouble figuring out which audio output to use, what volume settings, etc)
(2) I can't figure out why no matter what I do the dac lights say 48k and 2x, even though the files are 44.1k. 

I  should add I'm a relative newbie at this.


----------



## dougms3

]eep said:


> I'm trying to understand this. It doesn't make any sense. If noise is mixed in with the music, you can and will hear it the more revealing your system is. If can't get rid of it without penalties. It won't be the only thing you lose.
> 
> What i also don't understand is why you bring up the ifi devices for computer when he just said he uses an android phone that sounds clear as a bell. With the right app (that produces USB direct output) it's a really, really, really good source. It works off a DC battery. Any pc is to producing EMI noise to a datastream of music as a tiled swimmingpool is to echoing noise for a dolphinarium. Thanks to the AC pollution radiating unshielded power supply and cables.
> 
> ...


If theres white noise mixed in with music you will not be able to isolate it by ear.  

Some of the ifi devices have a usb c connector or with something like ipurifier that goes on the dac end.  Any electronic device is going to produce EMI not only a PC or AC powered device.  Dacs and amps also produce EMI and inject noise into the audio system as well.

I didn't say it was free, somebody is paying and in this case if you return it, it will be ifi.  But I think they know what they're doing since their products work well and they're willing to take that risk which is why they sell on Amazon directly.

Depending on which device you get, yes you can reduce jitter and yes it will improve anything. 

No matter what you do, there will be noise in the system.  The point is to reduce it.  There is no such thing as absolute silence in an audio system, thats called an oxymoron.  I have found that reducing too much noise sometimes affects the dynamics, transients, liveliness, musicality, bass in the music.  I dont know what the explanation is for this.

If you're feeling confident that your system is "silent", test it out for yourself.  Again, no risk.


----------



## sajunky (Jan 13, 2022)

halo26 said:


> I am trying out my new Denefrips Ares 2.  Asgaard3 amp.   I have my music (mostly classical, almost all of it CD quality flags ie 44.1k) on a microsd in an android tablet (fire HD +).  I have a few questions:
> (1)  what software and settings are the best to get bit perfect quality, no different than if I was  connecting my CD player with optical cable? (I have power amp and foobar2000, but an having trouble figuring out which audio output to use, what volume settings, etc)
> (2) I can't figure out why no matter what I do the dac lights say 48k and 2x, even though the files are 44.1k.
> 
> I  should add I'm a relative newbie at this.


Follow Foobar for newbies guide. Problem #2 shows a sound is going through Windows system mixer that do resampling to 48kHz (according to the setting in Windows). For bit-perfect playback use WASAPI *exclusive* mode output in Foobar, or ASIO, a guide covers this basic setup in part1.


----------



## iFi audio

sajunky said:


> It can be a different opinion on that, but I would just use iDefender instead.



That's affirmative. iDefender+ was designed to break ground loops, but its optional feature that allows to use a clean external 5V line is helpful in reducing noise incoming via USB.


----------



## Hoshi

I'm a current Ares II owner.  I've enjoyed this DAC for better than a year.  While thinking about upgrading to a DAC with I2S, I discover while reading the Pontus thread, that there is a firmware update from Denafrips for all models.  This upgrade supposedly enhances overall sound quality if using the USB input.  Here is the link to the update.  usb-mcu-firmware-update-mac

There is a windows PC update as well on the update page.  I'm posting here to see if any Ares II owners using a MAC have preformed this upgrade successfully.  I've followed the step by step instructions but cannot get the Ares II to engage to "F-20 Configuration Mode".  The instruction states to put the Ares II in confirmation mode, put the DAC in standby mode and to push the "phase" button once. I've tried this numerous times as well as trying different buttons, rebooting the DAC by completely shutting it down, etc. but cannot get the DAC in engage in the F-20 Configuration Mode.  

I have reached out Alvin and I believe he is looking into my issue.  

If you've been successful, please let me know.


----------



## JaquesGelee

Hoshi said:


> I'm a current Ares II owner.  I've enjoyed this DAC for better than a year.  While thinking about upgrading to a DAC with I2S, I discover while reading the Pontus thread, that there is a firmware update from Denafrips for all models.  This upgrade supposedly enhances overall sound quality if using the USB input.  Here is the link to the update.  usb-mcu-firmware-update-mac
> 
> There is a windows PC update as well on the update page.  I'm posting here to see if any Ares II owners using a MAC have preformed this upgrade successfully.  I've followed the step by step instructions but cannot get the Ares II to engage to "F-20 Configuration Mode".  The instruction states to put the Ares II in confirmation mode, put the DAC in standby mode and to push the "phase" button once. I've tried this numerous times as well as trying different buttons, rebooting the DAC by completely shutting it down, etc. but cannot get the DAC in engage in the F-20 Configuration Mode.
> 
> ...


I have done it with Mac by following the instructions.


----------



## halo26

sajunky said:


> Follow Foobar for newbies guide. Problem #2 shows a sound is going through Windows system mixer that do resampling to 48kHz (according to the setting in Windows). For bit-perfect playback use WASAPI *exclusive* mode output in Foobar, or ASIO, a guide covers this basic setup in part1.


Thank you.  I will check out that guide, and appreciate the advice.  However, I should clarify that I am using an ANDROID tablet (kindle fire HD plus), not windows.   [This seemed like a good idea, because the tablet has USB digital output, and can still be kept charged because it can charge while on a charging pad.]  It seems that the ANDROID device is automatically resampling it to 48K even though I have set foobar to NOT resample.  I can choose the audio output among several formats (which, BTW, I would like to know which I should favor), but it will only output as a multiple of 48K.  So there is a setting to allow me to output 192K (48KX4), another one at 96K, and it will sometimes allow me to do 48K.  (Whereas poweramp seems to ONLY output at 48K no matter whatoutput method I choose).  But either way, foobar does not seem able to override the android 48K setting.... unless I'm missing something


----------



## ]eep (Jan 13, 2022)

Power amp is ok. Foobar is not the same as on PC where I loved it so much. On Android it's nothing like the original. 

A free player that gives you bit perfect out is hiby player. You could also get the cheap dedicated player Tempotec V1 that uses Hiby-OS you can insert 2 sd-cards and use usb-c to the Ares. You can then use your phone from your couch to control via Hiby-link. Very easy and convenient, bit perfect with very clean data. If you tag the covers inside your flacs you can also see the covers on your phone.

There are also other super music players for a small fee like neutron and usb audio player pro. They have lots of fans, very versatile, very good quality. But if you don't want to plug your phone to your stereo like me (ie no headfi) imo Hiby is the go to app.

Edit: I reinstalled foobar to check the settings but I couldn't get it to output other than 48kHz either no matter HD PCM or DSD. What's worse, it effected Hiby too for some reason. To be fair; I didn't plug it into the Ares usb but to the smsl dp5 usb input where the screen said 48kHz. So I did some warm reboots took the Tempotec and it was playing dsd native on 2.235 MHz again.

With Hiby you just switch on 'exclusive hq usb audio access ' and your usb will have exclusive output access for the music, bypassing the Android mixer. No system messages etc.


----------



## dougms3

halo26 said:


> Thank you.  I will check out that guide, and appreciate the advice.  However, I should clarify that I am using an ANDROID tablet (kindle fire HD plus), not windows.   [This seemed like a good idea, because the tablet has USB digital output, and can still be kept charged because it can charge while on a charging pad.]  It seems that the ANDROID device is automatically resampling it to 48K even though I have set foobar to NOT resample.  I can choose the audio output among several formats (which, BTW, I would like to know which I should favor), but it will only output as a multiple of 48K.  So there is a setting to allow me to output 192K (48KX4), another one at 96K, and it will sometimes allow me to do 48K.  (Whereas poweramp seems to ONLY output at 48K no matter whatoutput method I choose).  But either way, foobar does not seem able to override the android 48K setting.... unless I'm missing something


I have tested USBAP, Foobar, Neutron, PowerAMP, Fiio, SHanling, Hiby Music Players, and Onkyo HF player.

Without a doubt the paid version of the Onkyo HF player which unlocks the usb features offers the best sound quality with DSD upsampling capabilities.  The negative is that its not very intuitive and design is very basic.  

For ease of use I'd say PowerAmp wins easily, GUI is smooth and easy to navigate, also easy to put together playlists.  But sound quality is not on par with the Onkyo player.

I dont use android for my home system but I use it for my car audio system.  Phone > Fiio BTR5 > car audio system pushing about 1000w rms.


----------



## halo26

dougms3 said:


> I have tested USBAP, Foobar, Neutron, PowerAMP, Fiio, SHanling, Hiby Music Players, and Onkyo HF player.
> 
> Without a doubt the paid version of the Onkyo HF player which unlocks the usb features offers the best sound quality with DSD upsampling capabilities.  The negative is that its not very intuitive and design is very basic.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the response.  One thing that I am unclear about:  If I have no plans to play anything other than (99%) Cd quality flac and perhaps a few 96k tracks,  Is there any substantial difference between hibby and onkyo? Isn't bit perfect by definition the same?


----------



## halo26 (Jan 14, 2022)

]eep said:


> Power amp is ok. Foobar is not the same as on PC where I loved it so much. On Android it's nothing like the original.
> 
> A free player that gives you bit perfect out is hiby player. You could also get the cheap dedicated player Tempotec V1 that uses Hiby-OS you can insert 2 sd-cards and use usb-c to the Ares. You can then use your phone from your couch to control via Hiby-link. Very easy and convenient, bit perfect with very clean data. If you tag the covers inside your flacs you can also see the covers on your phone.
> 
> ...


I tried it (hiby, exclusive hq USB mode) using the Kindle fire.  It stuttered, played tracks at double speed, refused to play,  etc.  The only way I was able to stop the stuttering was to enable FIXED output sampling rate.   Even then,  44.1 sampling just stuttered. Anything else (eg 48k, 88.2k, 96k, 176.4, 192k) plays just fine.   So it seems that bit perfect just won't work.....  the denefrips dac shows the selected sampling rate correctly,  it just Messes up the sound.   So my question with hiby is: does sampling at a multiple of 44.1 (eg 88.2) give me better quality with less artifact compared to upsampling flacs to 48k?


----------



## sajunky

Resampling should be avoided at all cost. I think the cheapest way to play bit-perfect on Android is USBAPP, but it is a paid app. 

Tidal users can be happy with a help of MQA requirements for bit-perfect transfers.


----------



## dougms3

halo26 said:


> Thanks for the response.  One thing that I am unclear about:  If I have no plans to play anything other than (99%) Cd quality flac and perhaps a few 96k tracks,  Is there any substantial difference between hibby and onkyo? Isn't bit perfect by definition the same?


I think the execution makes them different.  Not sure really why one would sound better than another, probably has to do with how the software is programmed, that is over my head.

I would assume its kind of like if you ask 5 different companies to make a red coupe v8 sports car with 19" wheels x height x width x wheelbase, you will get different end results even if they all meet that criteria.


----------



## Terozzzz

dougms3 said:


> USB will be noisy regardless if its A, B, or C. It carries data as well as power in the same cable, its inevitable that there will be interference.


That is not true. At all. The data wont be altered, at all. Even if there is noise and IF you got noise from USB your computer or home electric system is faulty. I have never even heard a any noise to be carried to DAC, not a once in my 35 years of building computers professionally.


----------



## BenSherman

I've just been told on another forum that I shouldn't use both the RCA and XLA outputs at the same time, as it will split the power and degrade the signal. Is this true? I've always had an amp plugged into each output simultaneously (tube amp into RCA and SS amp into XLR). As a test, I just tried unplugging the unused amp while listening to music - and I didn't notice any change to the sound.


----------



## dougms3

BenSherman said:


> I've just been told on another forum that I shouldn't use both the RCA and XLA outputs at the same time, as it will split the power and degrade the signal. Is this true? I've always had an amp plugged into each output simultaneously (tube amp into RCA and SS amp into XLR). As a test, I just tried unplugging the unused amp while listening to music - and I didn't notice any change to the sound.


I found this out the hard way, its been brought up several times in this thread.  

Its stated in the manual that "It is not recommended to connect both outputs simultaneously."

When I had both connected simultaneously, I got some erractic distortion in the sound.  Not a big deal for me to only use one but it would be nice if they were more transparent about it so I didn't go through my whole audio chain, trying to figure out if something is wrong with my amp or cables.


----------



## ]eep

Th


halo26 said:


> I tried it (hiby, exclusive hq USB mode) using the Kindle fire.  It stuttered, played tracks at double speed, refused to play,  etc.  The only way I was able to stop the stuttering was to enable FIXED output sampling rate.   Even then,  44.1 sampling just stuttered. Anything else (eg 48k, 88.2k, 96k, 176.4, 192k) plays just fine.   So it seems that bit perfect just won't work.....  the denefrips dac shows the selected sampling rate correctly,  it just Messes up the sound.   So my question with hiby is: does sampling at a multiple of 44.1 (eg 88.2) give me better quality with less artifact compared to upsampling flacs to 48k?



That is strange behaviour. Did you start using it while it was still scanning your library? It should have no trouble at all reading flac. I only get a hickup sometimes while decoding an iso in dst (compressed dsd) so flac 44 should be easy sailing. Sometimes, or should I say oftentimes, rushing in to using an app doesn't work. I get it with my laser too. I kill the app and restart and it works fine. Sometimes reinserting the usb helps too. 

You can try using upsampling to fixed rate. 44 to 48 is no use, only makes it worse. The others won't really improve anything but just try it and see what you think. My logical and emotional preference is non oversampling but I don't think it sounds bad. But I'm not saying you should too. Just listen and compare it to real life (live) sound (if you can find  a natural sounding recording without processing).


----------



## ]eep

BenSherman said:


> I've just been told on another forum that I shouldn't use both the RCA and XLA outputs at the same time, as it will split the power and degrade the signal. Is this true? I've always had an amp plugged into each output simultaneously (tube amp into RCA and SS amp into XLR). As a test, I just tried unplugging the unused amp while listening to music - and I didn't notice any change to the sound.


It's not that big a deal. It has to do with the resistors for the output impedance. If you were to use both simultaneously you would only have half the value and get a different sound and distortion on peaks (a bit like using low impedance speaker outputs). Usually a dac has an opamp or buffer on the output so it wouldn't make a difference. But Denafrips tries to maximize the sound quality and wants to keep the signal path as simple as possible. 

And since no one (ie 99 of the users doesn't) uses both at the same time but just wants the choice to use single ended or balanced, it is a valid option. I use both outputs but either/or. If you want to use both, use a (passive pre) amplifier with relais. So if you turn off the amp or switch input, the line is cut off. Or split the A and B line of the XLR. Or split of a second line with an extra resistor (what I use  for the subwoofers).


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## halo26 (Jan 17, 2022)

Deleted


----------



## sajunky

halo26 said:


> I can't really be confident that it would work because after all Hiby was supposed to work at 44.1k as well..... it may just be an issue with the tablet refusing to properly transmit anything lower than 48k.
> In any case, given a choice, if you start with 44.1k, do you think that upsampling to 48k produces more or less artifact/artificality than Upsampling to 88.2. Theoretically, 88.2k adds more bits, but interpolation between the original data seems more straightforward than upsampling to 48k...... so pick your poison (or MY poison)..... which upsample is worse, 44.1 to 48? Or 44.1 to 88.2?


I can't judge in this bizarre case, but it is worth to try. If the same happens with two different source devices, it might be something wrong with your Ares.

Generally upsampling do not increase information, but more likely introduce digital artifacts. Intersample overloads by example, it will depend on a music.


----------



## halo26

Neutron works without a hiccup.(Theres a free trial for a few days).

Still weird that hiby was able to do all kinds of upsampling, but wasn't able to get the kindle tablet to play bit perfect at 44.1 without stuttering. 

On a (slightly) different topic,  I've read different things about dithering.   If audio engineers say (somewhat convincingly) that at 44.1khz dithering merely changes artifacts into random and therefore less noticeable noise,  what is the argument against it?  Doesn't dithering just correct an inherent artifact of 44.1khz encoding?

Or does the dac automatically dithering the incoming data?


----------



## sajunky

halo26 said:


> On a (slightly) different topic, I've read different things about dithering. If audio engineers say (somewhat convincingly) that at 44.1khz dithering merely changes artifacts into random and therefore less noticeable noise, what is the argument against it? Doesn't dithering just correct an inherent artifact of 44.1khz encoding?
> 
> Or does the dac automatically dithering the incoming data?


Well, it is important question. Dithering is an important, the last step in music production. When you downsample or reduce bit-depth you introduce quantization errors. Our ears can "hear through the noise", it means we can recognise details with amplitude below noise floor level. However a noise of quantization errors is correlated with music. It create upleasant harshness. Dithering add pseudo-random noise with a level slightly higher than quantization noise, it turns up that quantization errors spectrum is decorelated and allows our ears to hear through the noise. A dynamic range is increased, CD has a maximum 96dB, with dithering it can be increased to a maximum 115-117dB. Of course if parameters are chosen inadequate, dithering will bring negative effects.

A real ilustration of dithering. Place a comb horizontally between eyes, keep it steady. The area between 'teeths' is visible clear and sharp, but behind teeths is completely obscured. Now move a comb left and right, when speed is increasing you can see the entire image. All image is blurred, but areas previously obscured can be seen. It is how dithering works.

There are areas where dithering is required. However in my opinion DACs should not add any dithering. While dithering can improve ladder linearity and look better in measurements, it is a cheap way to deal with ladder errors. Some brands offer dithering as an option, but I didn't hear any single report claiming that dithered sounds betther. Those brands that use dithering by default should be avoided.


----------



## halo26

sajunky said:


> Well, it is important question. Dithering is an important, the last step in music production. When you downsample or reduce bit-depth you introduce quantization errors. Our ears can "hear through the noise", it means we can recognise details with amplitude below noise floor level. However a noise of quantization errors is correlated with music. It create upleasant harshness. Dithering add pseudo-random noise with a level slightly higher than quantization noise, it turns up that quantization errors spectrum is decorelated and allows our ears to hear through the noise. A dynamic range is increased, CD has a maximum 96dB, with dithering it can be increased to a maximum 115-117dB. Of course if parameters are chosen inadequate, dithering will bring negative effects.
> 
> A real ilustration of dithering. Place a comb horizontally between eyes, keep it steady. The area between 'teeths' is visible clear and sharp, but behind teeths is completely obscured. Now move a comb left and right, when speed is increasing you can see the entire image. All image is blurred, but areas previously obscured can be seen. It is how dithering works.
> 
> There are areas where dithering is required. However in my opinion DACs should not add any dithering. While dithering can improve ladder linearity and look better in measurements, it is a cheap way to deal with ladder errors. Some brands offer dithering as an option, but I didn't hear any single report claiming that dithered sounds betther. Those brands that use dithering by default should be avoided.


Got it.  Practically speaking, if I use a player such as Neutron to play 44.1KHz flac files bit-perfect through the Ares Dac (--> Asgaard 3), should I therefore turn on dithering (in Neutron) to reduce artifacts? (If so, I think that technically means it's no longer bit-perfect, but my goal is best quality classical music experience, not semantic excellence)....     Or do the dithering formulas reduce musical quality in other ways?
And if dithering shoudl be done, , what sort of dithering (there re about 8 choices works best?)


----------



## sajunky

halo26 said:


> Got it.  Practically speaking, if I use a player such as Neutron to play 44.1KHz flac files bit-perfect through the Ares Dac (--> Asgaard 3), should I therefore turn on dithering (in Neutron) to reduce artifacts? (If so, I think that technically means it's no longer bit-perfect, but my goal is best quality classical music experience, not semantic excellence)....     Or do the dithering formulas reduce musical quality in other ways?
> And if dithering shoudl be done, , what sort of dithering (there re about 8 choices works best?)


There is reduction of quality if dithering is applied twice. Dithering is already applied on all new CD's. Adding dithering twice do not bring additional benefits, it only deteriorate sound. Early CD's were recorded without dithering. There is no definitive cut off date, engineers in some studios have learnt about dithering earlier or later or it us a matter of upgrading their equipment. Having such option on the DAC is helping in such case. It is a malpractice in my opinion if a dithering is used for randomizing ladder errors. With 24-bit music/ladder resolution low bits add a sufficient random noise to our ears and distortion energy is much smaller, no dithering is required.

Various dithering options functionality is the same as with digital filtering, a minor personal preferences will play role. In a few scientific papers I read, a triangular function is typically used for research.


----------



## Powermankw

Well I see I'm not wrong wondering about streaming. I can use bluesound (?) but don't like comments on SQ. Any decent simple roon endpoints with digital out? I use roon on my other devices.


----------



## elnero

Powermankw said:


> Well I see I'm not wrong wondering about streaming. I can use bluesound (?) but don't like comments on SQ. Any decent simple roon endpoints with digital out? I use roon on my other devices.


I use a Bluesound Node 2 via coax to my Ares II. No complaints about sound from me. Sounds better than USB from MacBook Pro.


----------



## dougms3

elnero said:


> I use a Bluesound Node 2 via coax to my Ares II. No complaints about sound from me. Sounds better than USB from MacBook Pro.


In the past when I've used optical vs usb, I noticed there was alot more bass via optical but the usb was more resolving.  

I'm curious what is your experience of the sonic differences between usb and coax?


----------



## dakchi

Powermankw said:


> Well I see I'm not wrong wondering about streaming. I can use bluesound (?) but don't like comments on SQ. Any decent simple roon endpoints with digital out? I use roon on my other devices.


Give Ifi Zen stream a try. The sound is much more clean thanks to the embedded purifier. The software is not as good as Bluesound though, but they improve it with regular updates. At the end, what matters is sound and Zen Stream is very good for that


----------



## Powermankw

dakchi said:


> Give Ifi Zen stream a try. The sound is much more clean thanks to the embedded purifier. The software is not as good as Bluesound though, but they improve it with regular updates. At the end, what matters is sound and Zen Stream is very good for that


That's what I've heard, but I don't need a dac and analog out, I need digital out to Ares (or any other DAC) Blue sound has digital out. My Matrix Audio Mini-1 has every possible connection, but no digital out. Seems the only route DACs care about is USB from computer. I would rather go over network which goes back to streamer, or roon endpoint with digital output.


----------



## dakchi

Powermankw said:


> That's what I've heard, but I don't need a dac and analog out, I need digital out to Ares (or any other DAC) Blue sound has digital out. My Matrix Audio Mini-1 has every possible connection, but no digital out. Seems the only route DACs care about is USB from computer. I would rather go over network which goes back to streamer, or roon endpoint with digital output.


Ifi Zen Stream does not have analog out because it doesn't have a dac like Bluesound Node. It is a pure streamer that has only SPDIF and USB out. I have tried it with Ares II and Pontus II and the result is excellent. It is day and night compared to Bluesound. I was not expecting that changing the streamer would have such impact on sound. However, if software is important for you, then ZS is not for you. No other streamer can compete with Bluesound on software


----------



## squadgazzz

dakchi said:


> Give Ifi Zen stream a try.


Just avoid stuff like this. To save money, it would be WAAAAAAY better to buy Pi2AES or at least DigiOne. It would also save a lot of your nerve cells


----------



## dakchi

squadgazzz said:


> Just avoid stuff like this. To save money, it would be WAAAAAAY better to buy Pi2AES or at least DigiOne. It would also save a lot of your nerve cells


Pi stuff is too noisy


----------



## squadgazzz

dakchi said:


> Pi stuff is too noisy


With a proper PSU/Linear PSU they are dead silent. Haven't heard a beep.


----------



## realmassy

dakchi said:


> Pi stuff is too noisy


Pi stuff is what’s inside the Zen stream too, it probably uses the compute module instead of a full blown Pi


----------



## Powermankw

dakchi said:


> Ifi Zen Stream does not have analog out because it doesn't have a dac like Bluesound Node. It is a pure streamer that has only SPDIF and USB out. I have tried it with Ares II and Pontus II and the result is excellent. It is day and night compared to Bluesound. I was not expecting that changing the streamer would have such impact on sound. However, if software is important for you, then ZS is not for you. No other streamer can compete with Bluesound on software


My bad, I didn't go far enough, I wasn't looking at the Stream. Roon isn't mandatory. I have two endpoints, but I can just stream Tidal too. Seems you can still probably do roon it's just not certified. But yes, that is an easy solution. Thanks.


----------



## szore

]eep said:


> I don't think I can answer that question because it is so undefined. I don't even know what YOU mean with 'amp'. Probably not the most common definition.
> 
> If you want real advice; ask a real question. What is your definition (preferably in complete sentences without abbreviations), what do you want to drive with it, what power do you need, what are your preferences in sound, tonality, looks, size, connections etc etc. What are you comparing it to? The price also makes it so hard to recommend anything. There is so much competition. And also, price doesn't mean anything without context.
> 
> If I had a 1000 $ I wouldn't spend it on an amplifier. Or save up for more. It's really hard to tell if and how much of an upgrade you would make and how long you would be happy or satisfied with it. How happy can you be with something 'someone on a forum recommended' compared to finding the grail on your quest?


https://www.schiit.com/products/jotunheim-3


----------



## szore

Kiats said:


> Hey @szore ! good to see you here and congrats on the Ares II! Hmm... I am not sure how much and if it is available where you are, but I am partial to the Phatlab RASA. I recall it is not that far from the budget. I have heard very good things about the Singxer Class A amp as well. And that one is definitely under $1K.


https://www.schiit.com/products/jotunheim-3


----------



## szore

So I took the plunge: After a lot of research and hemming and hawing, I ordered the Schiit Jotunheim 2 and the Ares dac! Can't wait to see what this can do. Unfortunatley the Schiit is on back order due to a shortage of parts...they are saying 6-8 weeks for delivery!!!

What USB cables and XLR to XLR interconnects are folks using for the Ares? I know about the Moon Audio Silver and Black dragon usb, wondering what else people like?


----------



## dougms3

szore said:


> So I took the plunge: After a lot of research and hemming and hawing, I ordered the Schiit Jotunheim 2 and the Ares dac! Can't wait to see what this can do. Unfortunatley the Schiit is on back order due to a shortage of parts...they are saying 6-8 weeks for delivery!!!
> 
> What USB cables and XLR to XLR interconnects are folks using for the Ares? I know about the Moon Audio Silver and Black dragon usb, wondering what else people like?


Heard that the Jotunheim 2 is warm and analog sounding, I think it'd pair well with the Ares II.  Interested to hear your thoughts on the matchup.

I use the Shunayata venom usb > ifi igalvanic > idefender > wireworld starlight 8 usb > ipurifier > Ares II > wireworld silver eclipse 8 xlrs > audio-gd master19


----------



## szore

dougms3 said:


> Heard that the Jotunheim 2 is warm and analog sounding, I think it'd pair well with the Ares II.  Interested to hear your thoughts on the matchup.
> 
> I use the Shunayata venom usb > ifi igalvanic > idefender > wireworld starlight 8 usb > ipurifier > Ares II > wireworld silver eclipse 8 xlrs > audio-gd master19


Wow, that's an impressive signal chain! You use both ifi galvanic AND the idefender? Interesting.


----------



## dougms3

szore said:


> Wow, that's an impressive signal chain! You use both ifi galvanic AND the idefender? Interesting.


I got the idefender first and was so impressed at what it was able to do that I got the igalvanic.  Was about to return the idefender but found that it sounded even better with it in the chain so I decided to keep it.


----------



## JaquesGelee

szore said:


> What USB cables and XLR to XLR interconnects are folks using for the Ares? I know about the Moon Audio Silver and Black dragon usb, wondering what else people like?


Hope you'll get it sooner. 

As for me, i used FAW USB Cable, Qued Reference Toslink to CD Player and Duelund/ KLEI Bullets DIY Cable to Amp. No need for XLR in this chain in my modest opinion.


----------



## 314Rye

szore said:


> What USB cables and XLR to XLR interconnects are folks using for the Ares? I know about the Moon Audio Silver and Black dragon usb, wondering what else people like?


I use the USB cable which came with the Aune X1 headphone amp/dac over ten years ago, cable is workable and very transparent, no big issues. I guess chinese products match well with each other? Should I upgrade my cable? Any suggestions in the price range of 20-50 dollars/euros?


----------



## Baten

314Rye said:


> Should I upgrade my cable?


I really wouldn't obsess over it if it sounds good, it sounds good.


----------



## squadgazzz

szore said:


> What USB cables and XLR to XLR interconnects are folks using for the Ares? I know about the Moon Audio Silver and Black dragon usb, wondering what else people like?


AQ Carbon USB-C and Canare L-4E6S


----------



## 314Rye

Baten said:


> I really wouldn't obsess over it if it sounds good, it sounds good.


Thank you for a very good advice, the ares + meze empyrean combination sounds good to me, actually, very good even with my old and not hifi oriented usb cable.


----------



## szore

This Ares community seems great, really glad to be a part of it now. Thanks for your recommendations! But @JaquesGelee , I do not see the Duelund/ KLEI Bullets DIY Cable...can you provide a link? And that is an intriguing statement that you dont feel "the need" for XLR...What do you mean by that?


----------



## JaquesGelee (Jan 28, 2022)

szore said:


> This Ares community seems great, really glad to be a part of it now. Thanks for your recommendations! But @JaquesGelee , I do not see the Duelund/ KLEI Bullets DIY Cable...can you provide a link? And that is an intriguing statement that you dont feel "the need" for XLR...What do you mean by that?


You couldn't find a cable like this, cause it is made by myself with Duelund and KLEI "Bullet" RCA Plugs. 😅

There are indeed Duelund interconnect cables available, but it's cheaper to diy.


For me it isn't necessary cause of the Amp i used, my opinion about XLR in short length at all and especially internal circuits of components.

But again, this only my modest opinion. I'm tired to discuss, if somebody disagree. Everyone on his own. ✌🏻

Cheers

#enjoymusic


----------



## szore (Jan 28, 2022)

Never mind. I had a question but I answered it.


----------



## elnero

szore said:


> Never mind. I had a question but I answered it.


The answer is 42


----------



## dougms3

elnero said:


> The answer is 42



I'm going to respectfully disagree and say the true answer is and always will be...


----------



## rreynolds

Recommended BNC cables to use with Terminator & Gaia?


----------



## Djankie

escknx said:


> I just received Ares 2, plugged into Win PC, installed driver and lost volume control thru Windows. Just like it always operate in ASIO mode, even tho it is not. I can control volume within apps like Foobar or Qubuz, but no Windows native control with their driver. Any idea on how to fix that?



I have the same problem, did you manage to fix it?


----------



## dougms3

Djankie said:


> I have the same problem, did you manage to fix it?


I think its just like that, one of its quirks I guess.

I can control the volume level through windows but it doesn't do anything whether I set it to 1 or 100.  However, 0 mutes it.

I think its just auto set to max.  I just use the amp to control volume.


----------



## viggen

szore said:


> This Ares community seems great, really glad to be a part of it now. Thanks for your recommendations! But @JaquesGelee , I do not see the Duelund/ KLEI Bullets DIY Cable...can you provide a link? And that is an intriguing statement that you dont feel "the need" for XLR...What do you mean by that?


https://www.partsconnexion.com/

i also built rca/coax cable using duelund 16ga and klei rca.


----------



## sajunky (Feb 1, 2022)

Djankie said:


> I have the same problem, did you manage to fix it?


Nothing to fix. Otherwise sound would go through the Windows mixer, it deteriorate sound. In a rare (in my case) situation I want to mix music with other sources, I select in Foobar device  xxx (default) and then Windows sound control works. It is called WASAPI shared.

EDIT: Forgotten to add that the latest Foobar version can integrate volume control with Windows 10. When you activate this option, it will link Windows control slider with Foobar (I expect) also for WASAPI Exclusive and ASIO drivers. It is done, as multimedia keyboards have shortcuts for volume control, very convenient feature.


----------



## ]eep (Feb 2, 2022)

Djankie said:


> I have the same problem, did you manage to fix it?


The problem has just been solved for you. Windows calls it a feature, but the windows mixer is a problem. It interferes with the bits that are sent to your dac. When you reduce the volume you lose bitdepth, or in audio terms, dynamic range. Among other problems.

The Ares is not a computer toy. Denafrips focuses only on soundquality with the fewest and best parts possible with all distractions out of the way. To get the best sound you need a bit perfect transmission over usb. This also means the only, and best place for a volume control is in the (pre-)amplifier. Just like you don't use a dimmer on the 10kV power line to dim your lights. (edit: removed car throttle; wrong analogy) 

(this is an elaboration of what ^ said )


----------



## sajunky (Feb 2, 2022)

]eep said:


> Or use your breaks to control the speed of your car while holding the pedal to the metal all the time. Well, some do but that isn't very safe or economic.


I do... When I want to enter controlled slip of rear wheels on the corner. For fast U-turn too.


----------



## Djankie

I understand, thing is that my right ear is hearing less th n my left ear. I cannot correct this by software then unfortunately.


----------



## simon740

After a long time of enjoying with the Ares II, I hooked up the Topping D30 today for fun. OMG. Disaster. This is not to be listened to. Sound of instruments .... plastic, without real fading ...Soundstage 2D...flat...
Ares is really far, far better.

regards,
Simon


----------



## rreynolds

simon740 said:


> After a long time of enjoying with the Ares II, I hooked up the Topping D30 today for fun. OMG. Disaster. This is not to be listened to. Sound of instruments .... plastic, without real fading ...Soundstage 2D...flat...
> Ares is really far, far better.
> 
> regards,
> Simon


The D30 is half the price of the Ares II, to be expected.


----------



## simon740

rreynolds said:


> The D30 is half the price of the Ares II, to be expected.


I’ve written this for those who say all DACs sound the same :-D


----------



## ]eep (Feb 2, 2022)

rreynolds said:


> The D30 is half the price of the Ares II, to be expected.


It's about conversion method and its implications. The auxiliaries to make that system work. Not just the dac itself (discrete or ic) but I/V and opamp stage. R2R doesn't need an opamp stage altogether and I/V is minimal. That saves a lot of effort, loss of precision an money that you can invest in what comes before the actual dac; power supply and signal handling. Even if a good resistor ladder requires attention, you won't lose a fraction of what a cheap-ass opamp stage does.

In short: a DAC unit is much more than just a dac and with sigma-delta you are going to notice a lot of difference in the attention to quality of the opamp stage. And when you have that covered you can focus on differences in OS/NOS and r2r/ds.

I have a couple of dacs that are (a lot) cheaper than the D30 that sound better (in some areas) than the Ares. Only thing is that they are built with NOS (as in surplus) R2R chips and sampling rates are limited to PCM 96kHz. There are even some dacs that cost €30 (butchered 47labs clones) that have most of this character (if only 44kHz)

So while it seems obvious, it's not just about price.


----------



## sajunky

simon740 said:


> After a long time of enjoying with the Ares II, I hooked up the Topping D30 today for fun. OMG. Disaster. This is not to be listened to. Sound of instruments .... plastic, without real fading ...Soundstage 2D...flat...
> Ares is really far, far better.
> 
> regards,
> Simon


Did you like it before? Ever?   . LOL.

My D30 is a fraud. Cheaper components than in a reviewer unit and probably fake opamps, as the is no explanation why it could sound so bad. Realtek chip in Sony Vaio laptop sounds better. D30 rests on the bottom of the drawer, it was replaced soon with Nobsound 8xTDA1387, portable device, still in use on the road.


----------



## rreynolds

Received my Terminator Plus today! A lot larger than I was expecting, little ridiculous for a DAC, but hey! The extent we go to for premium sound. 

Will post first impressions soon. The Venus II is fresh on my mind and will directly compare with it.


----------



## dougms3 (Feb 2, 2022)

rreynolds said:


> Received my Terminator Plus today! A lot larger than I was expecting, little ridiculous for a DAC, but hey! The extent we go to for premium sound.
> 
> Will post first impressions soon. The Venus II is fresh on my mind and will directly compare with it.


I think you might be in the wrong thread but would still love to hear your impressions.

Can you compare to the Ares as well?


----------



## viggen

dougms3 said:


> I recently upgraded the wall outlet duplex to a Furutech GTX-D,
> 
> I think you might be in the wrong thread but would still love to hear your impressions.
> 
> Can you compare to the Ares as well?


he did compare... their size


----------



## dougms3

I recently upgraded the cheap $1 wall duplex to a Furutech GTX-D and I'm blown away by the difference it made.

I mean it was not subtle at all.  I'm kicking myself for waiting this long to do this.

Has anyone tried upgrading their duplex?


----------



## kingoftown1

@dougms3 I'm a big fan of Furutech connectors in general, and very happy with my GTX-D (R) NCF.  Well worth the horrible burn in period. On the same note - the FI-06 NCF IEC is a drop-in fit for a lot of the non-NCF Furutech IECs that Denafrips uses.  I made the switch on a Hestia when I had it, easy and worthwhile tweak.

Also receiving the HF-X NCF HDMI soon for I2S use, but not with a Denafrips dac or ddc, so that might be too off-topic.


----------



## dougms3

kingoftown1 said:


> @dougms3 I'm a big fan of Furutech connectors in general, and very happy with my GTX-D (R) NCF.  Well worth the horrible burn in period. On the same note - the FI-06 NCF IEC is a drop-in fit for a lot of the non-NCF Furutech IECs that Denafrips uses.  I made the switch on a Hestia when I had it, easy and worthwhile tweak.
> 
> Also receiving the HF-X NCF HDMI soon for I2S use, but not with a Denafrips dac or ddc, so that might be too off-topic.


Also a big fan of furutech stuff.  

I went with the GTX-D Gold as I like a warm and bassy signature.  Going through burn in now about 120 hours deep, sound has been changing alot in that time.  How long would you say it took for your rhodium duplex to burn in?  I hear they take much longer.

Unfortunately, the Ares uses an integrated power, switch, and iec, don't think theres any furutech upgrade for that.


----------



## petersch

dougms3 said:


> I think its just like that, one of its quirks I guess.
> 
> I can control the volume level through windows but it doesn't do anything whether I set it to 1 or 100.  However, 0 mutes it.
> 
> I think its just auto set to max.  I just use the amp to control volume.



It’s the same with Mac and Windows. I was in contact with Vincent at Vinshine and he told me that they disabled the mixers for bit perfect sound, Makes sense to me. I had one computer that I relied on the mixer and now I’ve whipped up a quick passive preamp with an ALPS pot and it sounds fabulous with my Aries 2. I do have an issue with the Mac though, I can’t use PCM 1536 bitrate or I get no sound in Chrome or Tidal, dropping the rate back to 768 allows everything to be back to normal. I use the quick bitrate because it almost completely removes any Lip Sync issues with Aries and video streaming. If you use 44 or 48 get ready for some serious lip sync issues with Kodi or Apple TV. I found that flashing back to version 3.6 helped but Ver 3.12 does sound better if I don’t use 1024 DSD or 1536 PCM and less dropouts. 

Pete


----------



## dog44

Does anyone have impressions on Ares II v. Pontus II? Surprisingly hard to find any good comparisons of Pontus II.


----------



## squadgazzz

dog44 said:


> Does anyone have impressions on Ares II v. Pontus II? Surprisingly hard to find any good comparisons of Pontus II.


Comparisons here do not make any sense. Pontus II is way better than the Ares II in every aspect.
While Musician Pegasus is another next-level device compared to the Ares II, Pontus II is the best of these three.


----------



## dog44

squadgazzz said:


> Comparisons here do not make any sense. Pontus II is way better than the Ares II in every aspect.
> While Musician Pegasus is another next-level device compared to the Ares II, Pontus II is the best of these three.


It helps in knowing whether it's truly worth the ~1k difference and possibly selling an Ares. Better in every way is nice n' all and frankly, to be expected. However, it does not help decide if it's worthy of an extra grand over an Ares and selling said Ares. 

I'd like to hear some impressions if anyone has them. I have an Ares II already, an RME ADI-2, and a Bifrost 2. I know what these sound like already, but I've never heard a Pontus II or one 'compared' to an Ares II. I've heard and seen the glowing reviews for both, but I'm wondering what I'd get out of it for my money. I'm interested in specifics, it doesn't even have to be a direct 'comparison', just not a generalization of essentially 'it's better'.

Other gear if it matters: Arya V3, LCD-X, Focal Clear MG, Senn 800s. Ampsandsound Kenzie Encore, Lyr 3.


----------



## simon740

Some comparisons...

https://www.denafrips.com/single-post/it-breathes-life-into-the-music
https://www.denafrips.com/single-post/every-bowed-string-and-absolutely-zero-digital-glare
https://www.denafrips.com/single-po...ally-have-an-original-way-of-presenting-sound

regards,
Simon


----------



## squadgazzz

Just curious why so many people on youtube and forums suggest using a slow OS mode while non-OS sounds way better?


----------



## sajunky (Feb 14, 2022)

squadgazzz said:


> Just curious why so many people on youtube and forums suggest using a slow OS mode while non-OS sounds way better?


.LOL.

They listen to techno-computer generated music. A real NOS mode sounds even better.


----------



## szore

sajunky said:


> .LOL.
> 
> They listen to techno-computer generated music. A real NOS mode sounds even better.


My Ares shipped. Soon I will reveal the truth.


----------



## Baten (Feb 14, 2022)

szore said:


> My Ares shipped. Soon I will reveal the truth.


Well. Denafrips is not "real" NOS looking at GoldenSound's blog and videos. These DACs seem to have some kind of DSP of their own.
Real filterless NOS like old Sony chips without oversampling, holo audio, some others.. is just a bit different from what Denafrips does.


----------



## squadgazzz

sajunky said:


> They listen to techno-computer generated music. A real NOS mode sounds even better.


Yes I know that. But even then there is a difference.


----------



## sajunky (Feb 15, 2022)

Baten said:


> Well. Denafrips is not "real" NOS looking at GoldenSound's blog and videos. These DACs seem to have some kind of DSP of their own.
> Real filterless NOS like old Sony chips without oversampling, holo audio, some others.. is just a bit different from what Denafrips does.


Just take Holo Audio out from a list due to the digital filtering and high frequency data scrambling in their so called NOS mode. It sounds more similar to Delta Sigma DACs than a real NOS, confirmed by many. Even the owner of a website having word 'friends' in the name, a place Holo Audio have received a lot of praise says: "it sounds different, not neccessary better".

I do personally like approach of fixing ladder imperfections from Sonnet. It also does some data scrambling, but there is no digital filters and a philosophy behind is to compensate errors rather than hiding them from the measuring equipment. If I were not Audio GD fan, Morpheus would be on my purchase list.


----------



## 314Rye

squadgazzz said:


> Just curious why so many people on youtube and forums suggest using a slow OS mode while non-OS sounds way better?


There are many people which have not reached the highest possible hifisound consciousness? Or they just have a different taste of sound?


----------



## Baten

sajunky said:


> Just take Holo Audio out from a list due to the digital filtering and high frequency data scrambling in their so called NOS mode. It sounds more similar to Delta Sigma DACs than a real NOS, confirmed by many. Even the owner of a website having word 'friends' in the name, a place Holo Audio have received a lot of praise says: "it sounds different, not neccessary better".


What? That is news to me, I've owned holo spring 1/2. When measuring the digital filter in NOS it measures perfectly normal/expected so not sure what you mean.. high frequency data scrambling ??


----------



## sajunky (Feb 15, 2022)

Baten said:


> What? That is news to me, I've owned holo spring 1/2. When measuring the digital filter in NOS it measures perfectly normal/expected so not sure what you mean.. high frequency data scrambling ??


Yip. There was a long discussion about what is NOS and what is not in this thread. The guy brought a case of Denafrips in his defense of Holo Audio. I was defending Denafrips and I lost. However there is still disagrement regarding Holo. A proof for digital filtering is in Stereophile test of May. JA pointed out with numbers what drop-off is expected from NOS sample-hold operation and a difference as measured. Results for a higher sampling rate also brings unexpected results. I also brought my suspicion that Holo use high frequency data scrambling to hide ladder defects. It is shown as ringing on the pulse response test. JA blamed a limited bandwith of the analyzer. This is true, but it is not a test signal that interfere (true NOS DACs do not show the same behaviour using the same analyzer), but a high frequency data scrambling added in FPGA. Further tests (that my opponent brought-in in defense of Holo NOS) actually confirm a presence of ultrasonic data srambling. Everything is in this thread.


----------



## szore

Man, Denefrips don't play; last night my aresii went from China to Alsaska...this morning I woke up it was in indianapolis, now I checked it is in NYC! Wow! Should get it tomorrow!


----------



## szore

I'm shocked; they just delivered the Ares...it was in freaking Alaska last night....


----------



## PointyFox (Feb 15, 2022)

dougms3 said:


> Couldn't find a copper washer so I just used a brass washer.
> 
> Lol very surprising, there is a slight difference.



What the actual ...  That video is the kookiest thing I've ever seen. Is this real life?

The guy literally tuned the case to sound good to him when he hits it in a random spot and claims that it has the same effect on the music. That's not how ANYTHING works. Everyone should be offended.

Imagining that were true, manufacturers could design enclosures to sound good when hit which should optimize their music production, and people could pick the best amplifier by giving them a tap, like squeezing fruit at a supermarket.

Nonsense aside, if it does anything at all, then there must have been an electrical disconnect between the case parts which caused a grounding issue that installing the washer just happened to fix. That can be verified by checking the ground with a multimeter.


----------



## szore

OK, Folks, Have the Ares setup with the Jot2...I know the Ares needs 10 days to 'warm up', but its sounding good so far cold....The only question; I tried to set the OS mode and the filter but cannot seem to figure out the buttons. The manual says press the mute button, but when I do that, it just mutes. What am I missing?


----------



## halo26

While it is muted, press the opt1 button and it toggles nos/os. Same with opt2 and slow/ sharp


----------



## szore

halo26 said:


> While it is muted, press the opt1 button and it toggles nos/os. Same with opt2 and slow/ sharp


Thank you, I got it. Didn't hear any difference! I know I need to let these warm up and burn in, but so far it has a great 'punchy' sound. I am hearing some stage depth.


----------



## dougms3

PointyFox said:


> What the actual ...  That video is the kookiest thing I've ever seen. Is this real life?
> 
> The guy literally tuned the case to sound good to him when he hits it in a random spot and claims that it has the same effect on the music. That's not how ANYTHING works. Everyone should be offended.
> 
> ...


Lol so you've tried it then?

Why don't you try it before preaching...

Pick up a 10 cent brass washer at the hardware store, not hard or expensive to prove you're right.


----------



## dougms3

szore said:


> OK, Folks, Have the Ares setup with the Jot2...I know the Ares needs 10 days to 'warm up', but its sounding good so far cold....The only question; I tried to set the OS mode and the filter but cannot seem to figure out the buttons. The manual says press the mute button, but when I do that, it just mutes. What am I missing?


They say on the website thats its fully burned in from the factory but it definitely needed a good 10 days or so of run time before mine settled in.


----------



## szore (Feb 15, 2022)

Everyone says the Jot2 and Ares is warm...I am not hearing that at all. I mean, at least not 'too' warm...


----------



## PointyFox

dougms3 said:


> Lol so you've tried it then?
> 
> Why don't you try it before preaching...
> 
> Pick up a 10 cent brass washer at the hardware store, not hard or expensive to prove you're right.



If a guy said he learned to fly when he jumped off a bridge I'm not going to jump off a bridge. It's just common sense.


----------



## szore

When I put the Aresii in standby mode, is that still considered leaving 'on'?


----------



## kumar402

szore said:


> When I put the Aresii in standby mode, is that still considered leaving 'on'?


I can’t comment on Ares2 but with my Metrum Onyx and Sonnet Morpheus, I have to keep them On all the time as compared to just stand by. However both the DACs only take 8w. Check for the power consumption of Ares and if it’s not a lot and you have good surge protection then keep it on.


----------



## simon740

szore said:


> When I put the Aresii in standby mode, is that still considered leaving 'on'?


keep it ON.


----------



## squadgazzz (Feb 16, 2022)

szore said:


> When I put the Aresii in standby mode, is that still considered leaving 'on'?


I asked the company itself before and they told me there is no difference between stand-by and ON modes in terms of burning-in.


----------



## kumar402

squadgazzz said:


> I asked the company itself before and they told me there is no difference between stand-by and ON modes in terms of burning-in.


We are the best judge. We just have to test it out and see if we perceive any difference in SQ. As far as manufacturer goes, they would never say that their device must be "ON" all the time to sound best. It's just bad for business.


----------



## sajunky

PointyFox said:


> Nonsense aside, if it does anything at all, then there must have been an electrical disconnect between the case parts which caused a grounding issue that installing the washer just happened to fix.


Tension created during assembly, then exposing enclosure to the extreme temperature during shipment can reveal cold soldering joints inside PCB that otherwise would never shown. It is why some equipment arrives DOA or partly functioning (even it was tested at the factory). Releasing screws would already help reducing tension. I didn't watch a video, but even if it has been demonstrated repeated transition, it means a faulty unit than a result of successful tweak.

I had computer motherboard that reacted on adjusting screws, it broke permanently few months later.


----------



## simon740

Denafrips just recommends that their DACs be turned on all the time. For the best sound.
And I also noticed if one day the DAC is off, then it takes another day to play as it should.


----------



## simon740

squadgazzz said:


> I asked the company itself before and they told me there is no difference between stand-by and ON modes in terms of burning-in.


In terms of burning-in ..yes. No difference. I was thinking in terms of the best sound. Sorry.

regards,
Simon


----------



## PointyFox

sajunky said:


> Tension created during assembly, then exposing enclosure to the extreme temperature during shipment can reveal cold soldering joints inside PCB that otherwise would never shown. It is why some equipment arrives DOA or partly functioning (even it was tested at the factory). Releasing screws would already help reducing tension. I didn't watch a video, but even if it has been demonstrated repeated transition, it means a faulty unit than a result of successful tweak.
> 
> I had computer motherboard that reacted on adjusting screws, it broke permanently few months later.



Watch the video.


----------



## ]eep (Feb 16, 2022)

Edit... I reacted to something... Lost in the wind


----------



## szore

Holy Crapola, Batman! I've had the AresII 'on' for 6 days now, connected to the Jot2 amp, and it already sounds better than the CMA15 by Questyle!


----------



## PopZeus

szore said:


> Holy Crapola, Batman! I've had the AresII 'on' for 6 days now, connected to the Jot2 amp, and it already sounds better than the CMA15 by Questyle!


That's my desktop rig and, yeah, it rules. Maybe eventually I'll upgrade the amp but for now I'm really happy with it.


----------



## NoNameNPC

If I feed Ares II from Gustard U18 via coax will it improve sq against USB?


----------



## sajunky (Feb 22, 2022)

Try not expensive ground loops redirectors like ifi defender. Or a poorman DDC like this: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/dou...or-an-affordable-clean-digital-signal.958462/ 
Denafrips do not have I2S, but Coax output is quite OK.


----------



## Baten

NoNameNPC said:


> If I feed Ares II from Gustard U18 via coax will it improve sq against USB?


Nah.


----------



## simon740

Hello,

Which USB-c -- USB-b cable to buy for max 150€?

regards,
Simon


----------



## squadgazzz

simon740 said:


> Hello,
> 
> Which USB-c -- USB-b cable to buy for max 150€?
> 
> ...


I highly recommend AQ Carbon.


----------



## Thaddy

Has anyone compared this DAC to the Benchmark DAC3 B?


----------



## AudioEarthling

szore said:


> Everyone says the Jot2 and Ares is warm...I am not hearing that at all. I mean, at least not 'too' warm...


How is the ARES II sofar?


Has anyone here compared the Schiit *Bifrost 2* in an A/B test with the Denafrips *Ares II*?
How did they differ sound-wise when all else was the same?


----------



## szore (Feb 23, 2022)

AudioEarthling said:


> How is the ARES II sofar?
> 
> 
> Has anyone here compared the Schiit *Bifrost 2* in an A/B test with the Denafrips *Ares II*?
> How did they differ sound-wise when all else was the same?


I read a review somewhere that compared them, they said they are on the same level just coming from 2 different directions; they said ultimatley it is a matter of prefference.

I am loving the ares. It's been on for 8 days now and the sound is settling in, utterly addictive. I have the Questyle 15 ($2,500) on tour, and It's been sitting on my desk unused the last 2 weeks, the ares/Jot2 combo is just better to my ears.


----------



## szore

Has any Ares II owner bought the Iris DDC too? If so how is it?


----------



## mrip541

szore said:


> Has any Ares II owner bought the Iris DDC too? If so how is it?


I've had the Ares for 3 days and the Iris for 2, and am told the Ares is still breaking in... With the Iris my GSX mini is now absolutely dead silent even with max volume on high gain and being fed from my pc. I'm not so great at describing sound, but instruments and voices sound spookily real and defined in space, and I wasn't quite getting that feeling with the Ares alone. My only quibble with the Ares is that it seems to have a bit of extra sizzle in the sibilance region that can be more or less noticeable depending on the content. The Iris does seem to tame that a bit, or it could be the Ares breaking in, or my brain breaking in.


----------



## squadgazzz

szore said:


> Has any Ares II owner bought the Iris DDC too? If so how is it?


Don't waste your money. A good and even cheaper streamer would bring you a much better experience via Coax.


----------



## szore

mrip541 said:


> I've had the Ares for 3 days and the Iris for 2, and am told the Ares is still breaking in... With the Iris my GSX mini is now absolutely dead silent even with max volume on high gain and being fed from my pc. I'm not so great at describing sound, but instruments and voices sound spookily real and defined in space, and I wasn't quite getting that feeling with the Ares alone. My only quibble with the Ares is that it seems to have a bit of extra sizzle in the sibilance region that can be more or less noticeable depending on the content. The Iris does seem to tame that a bit, or it could be the Ares breaking in, or my brain breaking in.


Thanks. I plan to buy the Iris next week.


----------



## szore

I'm tempted to try the washer hack on the Ares ii with a pure silver washer, $80.... whatcha think @squadgazzz ?

https://www.surepure.com/Pure-Silve...-0.50-inch-insider-diameter-x-1-washer/p/8301


----------



## PointyFox

Why not attach a tuning fork instead? It will sound even better when you give the case a tap.


----------



## squadgazzz

szore said:


> I'm tempted to try the washer hack on the Ares ii with a pure silver washer, $80.... whatcha think @squadgazzz ?
> 
> https://www.surepure.com/Pure-Silve...-0.50-inch-insider-diameter-x-1-washer/p/8301


Have you tried to use a different power cable? I have a copper washer and hear no difference. I’m sure there will be the same with a silver one. But with Fujikura CV 600 + Monosaudio F104/E104 there are very nice improvements.


----------



## szore

squadgazzz said:


> Have you tried to use a different power cable? I have a copper washer and hear no difference. I’m sure there will be the same with a silver one. But with Fujikura CV 600 + Monosaudio F104/E104 there are very nice improvements.


HAHA! I'm just joking around, man... I watched that video, very interesting, but I will get the Iris next week...next 'big' purchase I am toying with trying the Denefrips power conditioner too. I did a review of the Yulong DA1 with the $1,600 power conditioner and the black backround was sublime....

https://www.denafrips.com/bic500


----------



## PointyFox

squadgazzz said:


> Have you tried to use a different power cable? I have a copper washer and hear no difference. I’m sure there will be the same with a silver one. But with Fujikura CV 600 + Monosaudio F104/E104 there are very nice improvements.



If you hear very nice improvements just replacing the power wires to your outlet, imagine the improvements replacing the wires in the wall. Too bad you can't also replace the wires from your house to the power plant.


----------



## szore

squadgazzz said:


> Don't waste your money. A good and even cheaper streamer would bring you a much better experience via Coax.



IDK, I've been watching some reviews, you may be right about this....


----------



## AudioEarthling (Feb 25, 2022)

Hi! Im hesitating what DAC to buy for my Windows PC.

I am looking for an end game DAC within a budget of approx 1K$ for my desktop to connect a revealing Focal headphone to a headphone amp via balanced XLR.
I have not yet decided which: Denafrips ARES II or Schiit Bifrost 2.

I had Denafrips ARES II on my radar but after seeing the many revisions it has had along the way, I'm not sure anymore.
For example, the number of ELNA for Audio capacitors near the XLR connections has halved from 10, to 8 and now 6 in 2022 version.
*Is every change or revision update on the ARES II an improvement/upgrade? Or could some changes/savings affect sound quality negatively?*

Any electronics engineers here (who happen do be owners of the newest 2022 version) who can shed some light on the revisions on the ARES II?
From the very first review samples (with 10 audio caps) to the current newest 2022 version (6 audio caps) near the XLR connections.
Whats the purpose of those two small and later added two large cube shaped tall red WIMA film caps near the R2R ladders in the newest batch?

Alvin from VinShineAudio is a gem, I respect him and I trust him, but he doesn't know the history of all the changes/improvements, so don't waste your time asking him!
I already asked him and he replied: "Since the first release of the ARES II, there have been only a few minor changes, that improve on the general quality of the device".

Has anyone here regretted buying the ARES II (which year was yours built?) after hearing it or after comparing it to another R2R dac, such as Bifrost 2?
Do the jaw-dropping enveloping musical magical praisals from the early reviews still hold valid, for the newest batch of ARES II built/shipped in 2022?

Or better save up and wait, try again in 5 years time, see how the R2R resistor ladder landscape looks like then?
Will there be more and more good brands for better prices then? Or will monopoly bring fewer but bigger brands, and the rest will disappear?


----------



## szore

AudioEarthling said:


> Hi! Im hesitating what DAC to buy for my Windows PC.
> 
> I am looking for an end game DAC within a budget of approx 1K$ for my desktop to connect a revealing Focal headphone to a headphone amp via balanced XLR.
> I have not yet decided which: Denafrips ARES II or Schiit Bifrost 2.
> ...


I just got my Ares 9 days ago, I love it so far, it sounds better to me than the Questyle 15 which I have here. Are you sure Bifrost is an R2R DAC??? Also if you want a 'revealing' dac I dont think Ares should be your first choice, it is analogue and very natural but not revealing. If you want a revealing dac try the ToppingD90...


----------



## AudioEarthling (Feb 25, 2022)

Thanks @szore for your reply and personal experience! How great to read that the Ares II can sound better than the flagship DAC of Questyle.
I read somewhere that the Bifrost 2 does use R2R but, unlike the Ares II, its not a physical resistor ladder, rather the resistors are baked inside a special chip.


----------



## Baten

AudioEarthling said:


> Thanks @szore for your reply and personal experience! How great to read that the Ares II can sound better than the flagship DAC of Questyle.
> I read somewhere that the Bifrost 2 does use R2R but, unlike the Ares II, its not a physical resistor ladder, rather the resistors are baked inside a special chip.


That is true.


----------



## sajunky (Feb 26, 2022)

Baten said:


> That is true.


^This. A DAC chip actually is not pure R2R (only a portion of a ladder is R2R), better description is a "ladder DAC". Ares is  a pure R2R.


----------



## AudioEarthling (Feb 26, 2022)

Which advantages can a *ladder chip DAC* have over a *pure R2R resistor DAC*, if say both are equally made of exceptionally high quality?
Imagine Schiit Audio builds a true pure R2R resistor dac, and Denafrips builds a multibit chip ladder DAC, both same price and exceptional high quality.
What sound signature traits can be generally attributed to chip ladder dacs when compared to r2r resistor dacs? (comparing similar price and build quality).


----------



## sajunky

AudioEarthling said:


> Hi! Im hesitating what DAC to buy for my Windows PC.
> 
> I am looking for an end game DAC within a budget of approx 1K$ for my desktop to connect a revealing Focal headphone to a headphone amp via balanced XLR.
> I have not yet decided which: Denafrips ARES II or Schiit Bifrost 2.
> ...


I wouldn't worry about replacing large cans with film capacitors. I would do it in first place if designing this DAC. I know that large cans and a hudge number brings user attention and build a confidence, good for marketing, it is not better than a current version, IHMO.

As for a gaming DAC I would add Audio GD R2R-11mk2 to the list. Ares has a large FIFO with a variable latency, it affects gaming experience. You don't want to hear steps with after hundred miliseconds delay, do you? R2R-11 is better than Ares in this application as it has a minimum latency on USB port. Headphone amplifier is powerful, I think is capable delivering good quality sound to your headphones on SE output (no XLR). Make sure to order option with galvanic isolator and Crystek oscilators, it is worth extra $70.


----------



## sajunky (Feb 26, 2022)

AudioEarthling said:


> What sound signature traits can be generally attributed to chip ladder dacs when compared to r2r resistor dacs? (comparing similar price and build quality).


It is like comparing TDA1541/3 or TDA1387 (segmented architecture where only a portion of ladder is R2R) with a complete R2R implementation in PCM63 or PCM1704. These are well known devices, easy to find user feedback.

This is a difference. Other than that, chip DAC's typically have a vintage sound signature, but it is due to pairing with obsolete, inferior DSP filtering chip comparing to the current FPGA solutions. Not related to the chip vs. dicrete implementation dispute, not a reason. When done right, there is no difference.


----------



## szore

AudioEarthling said:


> Which advantages can a *ladder chip DAC* have over a *pure R2R resistor DAC*, if say both are equally made of exceptionally high quality?
> Imagine Schiit Audio builds a true pure R2R resistor dac, and Denafrips builds a multibit chip ladder DAC, both same price and exceptional high quality.
> What sound signature traits can be generally attributed to chip ladder dacs when compared to r2r resistor dacs? (comparing similar price and build quality).


I think the idea is discreet components are just better sounding than integrated circuits. this is true of amps as well.


----------



## ProLoL

AudioEarthling said:


> Thanks @szore for your reply and personal experience! How great to read that the Ares II can sound better than the flagship DAC of Questyle.
> I read somewhere that the Bifrost 2 does use R2R but, unlike the Ares II, its not a physical resistor ladder, rather the resistors are baked inside a special chip.


The dac inside the CMA800i was easily better than the Ares 2 for me.


----------



## szore

ProLoL said:


> The dac inside the CMA800i was easily better than the Ares 2 for me.


Better how, tho?


----------



## ProLoL (Mar 22, 2022)

szore said:


> Better how, tho?


Detail, speed, transparency and just more coherent. The ares 2 has a wider sound stage.
Also, if to compare DSD playback, it's not even in the same league, the CMA800i transforms into a different device with it's amazing DSD playback, quite incredible indeed.


----------



## dougms3

ProLoL said:


> Detail, speed, transparency and just more coherent. The ares 2 is the more natural sounding with a wider sound stage.
> Also, if to compare DSD playback, it's not even in the same league, the CMA800i transforms into a different device with it's amazing DSD playback, quite incredible indeed.


Very curious what in particular is superior with the DSD playback with the CMA800i?


----------



## simon740

ProLoL said:


> Detail, speed, transparency and just more coherent. The ares 2 is the more natural sounding with a wider sound stage.
> Also, if to compare DSD playback, it's not even in the same league, the CMA800i transforms into a different device with it's amazing DSD playback, quite incredible indeed.


If you want speed, transparency, detail...then Ares II dac is not for you. Ares II is for enjoying music. Natural presentation, "correct color" of instruments. And 3D image.


----------



## ProLoL

simon740 said:


> If you want speed, transparency, detail...then Ares II dac is not for you. Ares II is for enjoying music. Natural presentation, "correct color" of instruments. And 3D image.


I know, I had two Ares 2 and loved it for their strength but my preference would be the a CAS192D over it but there comes the price difference.



dougms3 said:


> Very curious what in particular is superior with the DSD playback with the CMA800i?



It transforms this device into a different device completely listening through DSD, they call it "direct" dsd or whatever but it's sublime, would recommend to try it if possible.
CMA800i + HD800 = wowzer.


----------



## AudioEarthling (Feb 26, 2022)

@ProLoL  Thanks for sharing. Is your personal reference CMA800i (based on Wolfson WM8741) a Sigma-Delta type dac or a Multibit chip ladder type dac?
Found an interesting comparison between WM8741 vs. ESS9023. Though we _tasteful listeners_ know that graphs don't say everything/anythying when it comes to musical enjoyment. I particular liked his subjective interpretation in the perceived comparision table, between the two chip based DACs:


----------



## ProLoL

AudioEarthling said:


> @ProLoL  Thanks for sharing. Is your personal reference CMA800i (based on Wolfson WM8741) a Sigma-Delta type dac or a Multibit chip ladder type dac?
> Found an interesting comparison between WM8741 vs. ESS9023. Though we _tasteful listeners_ know that graphs don't say everything/anythying when it comes to musical enjoyment. I particular liked his subjective interpretation in the perceived comparision table, between the two chip based DACs:


The chip itself is just a piece of the whole picture but I agree with this statement, thanks for sharing.
I myself prefer an R2R but a good designed delta sigma can certainly take me to places.


----------



## henriks

This has been up before.. 2 devices connected, but only one is powered and used, should that be a problem?


----------



## sajunky

Yes


----------



## shafat777

henriks said:


> This has been up before.. 2 devices connected, but only one is powered and used, should that be a problem?


Yes. Regardless of power on or off, the dac will split its power between xlr and rca out and that will result in lower sound quality.


----------



## szore

Booooo, booooo lower sound quality....


----------



## szore

Guys, I'm loving my Ares II and Jotunheim amp! I just got home from a weekend of Canjam, And first thing I put on my 2C which was running to burn in the Ares, etc, and immediatly I was happy! At no point did I feel that my rig was inferior to anything I head (including $20,000 systems.) For what I got, I'm set! happy camper, end game!


----------



## szore

I am toying with the idea of getting the Iris DDC, tho...and maybe a good power conditioner...


----------



## szore

kevin gilmore said:


> I don't like that many caps together from a reliability standpoint. If one decides to cause trouble, very hard to figure out which one. But clearly the ESR is going to be lower for a bunch of small caps vs a couple of big caps.
> 
> I do know someone in Iceland that just bought an ares. will be interesting to see their review.
> 
> I expect to see a bunch of under $1k R2R dacs on the market soon


Never happened!


----------



## szore

]eep said:


> These are two different things but they do influence each other. (N)OS has a bearing in what goes in; 44.1 or 172.4 kHz (a digital proximation of smaller steps but no actual information). Steep or slow filtering happens to what comes out (and is therefore analog like speaker filters and has effect on phase and high frequencies).
> 
> What happens if you oversample, you push the filings to higher frequencies (the difference between a gradual slope and steps, if your steps are smaller you need to file off less to get a smooth slope). If the rubbish moves higher you don't have to filter as steep and a gentler filtee means less temporal smearing and distortion. In theory...
> 
> ...


I agree about the filtering, I've had mine for 14 days now, and I have had OS with soft because of everyone saying, but I just tried NOS with soft, and I like it much more, it is indeed more natural and pure sounding.


----------



## halo26

1.  I'm pretty sure that if you're listening to it with NOS, there is no filtering (eg soft) available.  Filtering on the ares 2 is only available in oversampling mode. 

2.  Does anybody hear any difference with changing the phase? I'm using this with a schiit asgaard3.


----------



## ProLoL

halo26 said:


> 1.  I'm pretty sure that if you're listening to it with NOS, there is no filtering (eg soft) available.  Filtering on the ares 2 is only available in oversampling mode.
> 
> 2.  Does anybody hear any difference with changing the phase? I'm using this with a schiit asgaard3.


Soft / sharp is available for both NOS and OS.
My preference is OS soft and is easily distinguishable.


----------



## dougms3

halo26 said:


> 1.  I'm pretty sure that if you're listening to it with NOS, there is no filtering (eg soft) available.  Filtering on the ares 2 is only available in oversampling mode.
> 
> 2.  Does anybody hear any difference with changing the phase? I'm using this with a schiit asgaard3.





halo26 said:


> 1.  I'm pretty sure that if you're listening to it with NOS, there is no filtering (eg soft) available.  Filtering on the ares 2 is only available in oversampling mode.
> 
> 2.  Does anybody hear any difference with changing the phase? I'm using this with a schiit asgaard3.


For the phase button, I forgot which position it is, on or off but the difference is pretty noticeable, sounds like 1/4 of the music is cutoff in height.


----------



## szore

Baten said:


> NOS tends to be an acquired taste, most people would prefer regular oversampling which is sharper with better refined edges. NOS sounds softer/fuzzier but also different.


I found NOS to sound more clear and pure! Sound fidelity increased.


----------



## simon740

In my "speaker setup" NOS on Ares II sound "bigger", more 3D. And a little softer then OS soft. 

regards,
Simon


----------



## NehPets

ProLoL said:


> Soft / sharp is available for both NOS and OS.
> My preference is OS soft and is easily distinguishable.


Mine doesn't support filters in "NOS" mode. At least, that's what the manual says.


----------



## ProLoL (Mar 2, 2022)

NehPets said:


> Mine doesn't support filters in "NOS" mode. At least, that's what the manual says.


It seems as the units since V1.1 4th Jan 2022 got updated. I owned ares 2 when you were able to use soft/sharp on NOS too, as it's not a true NOS.


----------



## Slade01

Hey guys - I was wondering if you all had any experience with using Ares 2 and streaming service Tidal.  @musicrover having issues with this:

_"I was hoping you could have some insight on my streaming. The unit is working however I can hear a popping sound every 5 or 6 seconds from the speakers. I have changed the settings on my desktop computer (windows 10) and in my streaming app (Tidel).

My laptop (mac) works fine."_

I sold my Ares 2 Dac and he is trying to set it up proper on his end.   Unfortunately, I do not have experience with Tidal or speakers.  Hope someone might be able shed some insight.  Thanks!


----------



## alvin1118

Slade01 said:


> Hey guys - I was wondering if you all had any experience with using Ares 2 and streaming service Tidal.  @musicrover having issues with this:
> 
> _"I was hoping you could have some insight on my streaming. The unit is working however I can hear a popping sound every 5 or 6 seconds from the speakers. I have changed the settings on my desktop computer (windows 10) and in my streaming app (Tidel).
> 
> ...



A gentleman contacted us with similar issue. The follow guide fixes the issue:

*Windows Computer:*
1. Install Thesycon Driver. Installation guide: https://www.denafrips.com/win-os
2. For Tidal App on Windows, set the Tidal to _exclusive mode_

*Mac Computer:*
1. Typical setup guide: https://www.denafrips.com/mac-os
2. Sampling rate setting can be configured @ 'Midi Setup'

Happy listening!


----------



## Slade01

alvin1118 said:


> A gentleman contacted us with similar issue. The follow guide fixes the issue:
> 
> *Windows Computer:*
> 1. Install Thesycon Driver. Installation guide: https://www.denafrips.com/win-os
> ...



Thank you Alvin!  This is why Vinshine Audio is awesome!  I really appreciate it.


----------



## mab1376

Does anyone know if they will ever offer the Ares II in silver?


----------



## alvin1118

mab1376 said:


> Does anyone know if they will ever offer the Ares II in silver?


No sir, Ares II is available in black colour only.


----------



## 314Rye

alvin1118 said:


> No sir, Ares II is available in black colour only.


Fortunately black Ares looks and sounds good.


----------



## JaquesGelee

ProLoL said:


> It seems as the units since V1.1 4th Jan 2022 got updated. I owned ares 2 when you were able to use soft/sharp on NOS too, as it's not a true NOS.


Do i understand right about a board refresh?


----------



## szore

So I've had the Ares II for a month now, and I don't know if it's my imagination, but this thing seems to have kicked into "high gear"... Suddenly, it just sounds a LOT better... Is that a thing, the 30 day bump?


----------



## Stercom

szore said:


> So I've had the Ares II for a month now, and I don't know if it's my imagination, but this thing seems to have kicked into "high gear"... Suddenly, it just sounds a LOT better... Is that a thing, the 30 day bump?


I've owned Audio-GD DACs (which are similar to the Denafrips with discrete ladder and oversized transformers) and yep definite sound improvement with more use.


----------



## AudioEarthling (Mar 21, 2022)

Headcan said:


> Alvin suggested I do the firmware update first to see if it fixes an issue with *intermittent static/crackling* over USB, which it did.
> The unit was bought in December 2019.



Just got my new ARES II from Denafrips and my unit plays wonderfully fine.

Though sometimes when I walk around a little on my woolen socks and then touch the ARES II, a *tiny spark* jumps from my finger to the unit or the other way around, and the the music *immediately gets distorted* with digital noise. Like 50% music and 50% static noise.

The unit is connected to an earthed mains and an earthed amplifier and my Lenovo notebook via USB.

Pressing stop and play again on my notebook, immediately fixes the issue.
Does anyone else has the same issue with static electricity distorting their DAC/ARES II upon touching it?

Is it forbidden to own ARES II AND wear woolen socks at the same time?


----------



## sajunky (Mar 21, 2022)

Static electricity can even destroy your gear. You should discharge your body before touching Ares enclosure, cables, etc. It can be a grounded conducting surface placed on the stand. Antistatic matt is commonly used with PC's/laptops. It can be any metalic surface but to avoid unpleasant spark, use a resistor 10k-100k Ohms when connecting to ground.


----------



## Ludique

AudioEarthling said:


> Just got my new ARES II from Denafrips and my unit plays wonderfully fine.
> 
> Though sometimes when I walk around a little on my woolen socks and then touch the ARES II, a *tiny spark* jumps from my finger to the unit or the other way around, and the the music *immediately gets distorted* with digital noise. Like 50% music and 50% static noise.
> 
> ...


What material is your floor? Is the air in your room very dry (freezing temperatures outside)? Do you dry your clothes in a dryer? 

No need to answer, just some remarks.


----------



## daytrader

AudioEarthling said:


> Just got my new ARES II from Denafrips and my unit plays wonderfully fine.
> 
> Though sometimes when I walk around a little on my woolen socks and then touch the ARES II, a *tiny spark* jumps from my finger to the unit or the other way around, and the the music *immediately gets distorted* with digital noise. Like 50% music and 50% static noise.
> 
> ...


Static, especially in winter time can be trying if this is what truly is going on?   Otherwise stop drinking these energy drinks! 😜


----------



## daytrader

Ludique said:


> What material is your floor? Is the air in your room very dry (freezing temperatures outside)? Do you dry your clothes in a dryer?
> 
> No need to answer, just some remarks.


All those will contribute to static as we know. If it doesn’t go away with your suggestions and the passing of dry months I’d suggest a room humidifier if the problem isn’t an easy fix.


----------



## AudioEarthling (Mar 22, 2022)

Ludique said:


> What material is your floor?
> Do you dry your clothes in a dryer?



Standard fakewood laminate floor, leather couch. The Ares II sits on a wooden bench. Humidy is between 30% ~ 40% in the winter here.
I do not use/dry my clothes in a dryer. I wear cotton trousers, 100% bamboo underwear and wear 100% woolen socks.
I cannot believe we are having this conversation on an forum about DACs 
After the initial spark on the first day, from then on I now ALWAYS discharge myself first, before touching any audio component.
I will buy a 10K resistor to discharge myself first, before touching anything else.


----------



## roderickvd

Yesterday I got an email from Vinshine with a customer poll whether or not there is interest in USB volume control. Given enough interest, they might offer it as a feature in firmware. 

I am going to vote against. I just want sources to output at line level and will attenuate it in some preamp, regardless if that’s a separate or integrated with the amp. That’ll yield the highest dynamic range. 

It might have made sense if there was a headphone out on the DAC, and there isn’t.


----------



## AudioEarthling (Mar 23, 2022)

Completely agree with @roderickvd
I also voted *NO* I don't like/need a volume control, because a Denafrips DAC is for sound quality purity and fidelity in the first place, and not comfort or convenience in the utmost first place. I understand and respect the reasons why the engineers made a flat out solid line level output without methods to allow for (accidental) attenuation variabilities.


----------



## alvin1118

The poll results as of today are interesting, it's 80/20 where

80% voted for _*NO*_


----------



## GoldenOne (Mar 28, 2022)

alvin1118 said:


> The poll results as of today are interesting, it's 80/20 where
> 
> 80% voted for _*NO*_


Definitely ideal to keep the stock firmware at least as a no volume version.
Linux has a bit of a quirk on many sources where it will set ALSA devices to 46% (can't remember the exact number but it's around there) by default.

This caused a bit of confusion with the new Holo May USB card for example as it had USB vol control enabled by default, so on most linux sources/streamers it'd be way quieter than the other inputs and depending on how you were streaming it could be a bit tricky to adjust it up. Easy if you're using roon, not so much if using something else.

They've switched to a fixed vol stock firmware now but have a second firmware available if someone wants the USB vol control


----------



## roderickvd

Alvin,

Any problem if I hook up the Ares to two separate amplifiers, one using XLR out and the other RCA out?


----------



## dougms3

roderickvd said:


> Alvin,
> 
> Any problem if I hook up the Ares to two separate amplifiers, one using XLR out and the other RCA out?


Yes.

There will be a problem.


----------



## AudioEarthling (Mar 26, 2022)

dougms3 said:


> Yes. There will be a problem.



Q1: Which problem would or could then arise?

Q2. Why/what is the reason behind the problem that you describe in Q1?

Q3: What if 2 amplifiers were connected but only 1 amplifier is turned ON?


----------



## sajunky

AudioEarthling said:


> Q1: Which problem would or could then arise?
> 
> Q2. Why/what is the reason behind the problem that you describe in Q1?
> 
> Q3: What if 2 amplifiers were connected but only 1 amplifier is turned ON?


It doesn't matter (#3), sound is degraded when two connections are made.


----------



## JaquesGelee

GoldenOne said:


> Definitely ideal to keep the stock firmware at least as a no.


I don't get it. Please explain.

Cheers


----------



## roderickvd

I wouldn’t mind if it was in the firmware, I just wouldn’t use it. But I also took the poll as a question of “should we spend our time on this or something else” — and then I’d prefer something else.


----------



## roderickvd

sajunky said:


> It doesn't matter (#3), sound is degraded when two connections are made.



Why though? What could degrade the output is a low or non-linear input impedance, but does that actually occur? Doesn’t seem like it to me:

When the input impedance of the amplifiers is high enough, as it should be, they do not really impose a load — the DAC just supplies voltage and the amp draws virtually no current. 

Now say that two amplifiers are connected with equal input impedance. The impedance as seen by the DAC is now halved. But again, given a high enough impedance, half that still isn’t significant, and will still not impose a load on the DAC. 

Exception could be when you connect one with RCA (only on ve+) and the other using XLR. Ve+ and ve- are now not in balance and that may cause some degradation, hence my question.


----------



## GoldenOne

JaquesGelee said:


> I don't get it. Please explain.
> 
> Cheers


Whoops, was meant to say "Definitely ideal to keep the stock firmware at least as a no volume version." not sure what happened there


----------



## Powermankw

So who has compared with Pontus 2? What are the differences to Ares?


----------



## alvin1118

GoldenOne said:


> Definitely ideal to keep the stock firmware at least as a no volume version.
> Linux has a bit of a quirk on many sources where it will set ALSA devices to 46% (can't remember the exact number but it's around there) by default.
> 
> This caused a bit of confusion with the new Holo May USB card for example as it had USB vol control enabled by default, so on most linux sources/streamers it'd be way quieter than the other inputs and depending on how you were streaming it could be a bit tricky to adjust it up. Easy if you're using roon, not so much if using something else.
> ...



Thanks for the suggestion! @GoldenOne 

We will _have_ rolled out an Special Firmware of which enable the USB volume control. 

Please note that the volume control applies only when you use the USB input. With the firmware v3.14, you can use the Windows/ Mac computers volume slider to control the volume.

Reason for the clarification is that some users misunderstood that they will be able to attenuate the master output volume of the DAC for all digital inputs, it's not the case... 
If you already have a headamp/preamp/integrated amplifier, I would highly recommend using the amplifier for volume attenuation. 

Read more: link here


----------



## dougms3

alvin1118 said:


> Thanks for the suggestion! @GoldenOne
> 
> We will _have_ rolled out an Special Firmware of which enable the USB volume control.
> 
> ...


Does this firmware update anything else or is it the volume control only?


----------



## lostrockets (Apr 19, 2022)

Anyone heard the cayin ru6 and can speak to how it sounds vs the ares?

Also compared to. soekris 1101 or 1321?


----------



## sajunky

lostrockets said:


> Anyone heard the cayin ru6 and can speak to how it sounds vs the ares?
> 
> Also compared to. soekris 1101 or 1321?


SQ is reported good, only power consumption would prevent me from purchasing it. I own a Nobsound 8xTDA1387, which is also a ladder type, it takes very low power, less than a typical DS dongle. 

In this link there is no comparison to desktop R2R devices, but @gLer is familar with R2R desktop DACs and is there on this forum, you can ask questions.


----------



## Headcan

lostrockets said:


> Anyone heard the cayin ru6 and can speak to how it sounds vs the ares?


I own both.  Ares II was my first taste of R2R.  When I heard that Cayin was releasing the RU6 dongle DAC, I jumped on the pre-order and got one through Musicteck before any reviews or impressions were available.  It's currently my favourite dongle, next to the Luxury & Precision W2.  I'd however be hesitant to go into sound comparisons between a desktop DAC (hooked up to my main system) and dongle DAC used mainly with IEM's, but if you like the Ares, you'd likely enjoy the RU6 too for what it is.


----------



## szore

Hello folks, getting out of the hobby, selling my 2 month old Ares 2. Asking $600. Mint condition, classified will be up tonight.


----------



## roderickvd

I have a 


lostrockets said:


> Anyone heard the cayin ru6 and can speak to how it sounds vs the ares?
> 
> Also compared to. soekris 1101 or 1321?


I have a Soekris dam1121. Compared to the stock Soekris filters, the Ares II is more engaging, dynamic, and warm. With custom filters you can get the warmth up on the Soekris, but not the detail. The Ares definitely has more of that detail. 

I do think this is a matter of diminishing returns. I have been very happy with my Soekris, and Ares feels as a step up to me, but don’t expect it to be light years ahead.


----------



## lostrockets (Apr 20, 2022)

Headcan said:


> I own both.  Ares II was my first taste of R2R.  When I heard that Cayin was releasing the RU6 dongle DAC, I jumped on the pre-order and got one through Musicteck before any reviews or impressions were available.  It's currently my favourite dongle, next to the Luxury & Precision W2.  I'd however be hesitant to go into sound comparisons between a desktop DAC (hooked up to my main system) and dongle DAC used mainly with IEM's, but if you like the Ares, you'd likely enjoy the RU6 too for what it is.



Ive got both the w2 131 and the ru6, after bearing the ru6 it got me thinking how much better can it get? 

I already have tubes in my speaker and headphone amps so maybe the returns will be a little less than if i had a solid state setup. At least as far as the warmth goes

What causes you to hesitate between dongle and desktop? After all both produce music just a little different right?


----------



## Headcan

lostrockets said:


> Ive got both the w2 131 and the ru6, after bearing the ru6 it got me thinking how much better can it get?
> 
> I already have tubes in my speaker and headphone amps so maybe the returns will be a little less than if i had a solid state setup. At least as far as the warmth goes
> 
> What causes you to hesitate between dongle and desktop? After all both produce music just a little different right?


Ah, so it's the other way around.  I was under the impression you already had an Ares and were looking to get the RU6.

The only tubes I currently own is a hybrid Little Dot MK1+ headphone amp and it pairs surprisingly well with the Ares.  What was initially just a curiosity of hey, I've got this little HP amp in a cupboard, let's hook it up to the Ares and hear what it sounds like, turned into more than just a seasonal (winter months) ritual. 

Ares II + LD MK1 + Grado's = Pure musical bliss. To my ears at least.  I don't get that same level of enjoyment out of listening via the RU6, but it's still really good for what it is.

Amp, speakers, room treatment can give a completely different sound experience and feel really, than the more intimate listen with headphones/buds/IEM's. It's all good though, depends on the mood.


----------



## alphaman

The claims GoldenSound is making about the Ares II _not_ being able to do true NOS (in NOS mode), and that a triangle-shaped step response is proof of false NOS is non-nonsensical.



For example, look at : https://www.kitsunehifi.com/nosvsos/
Also look at JA's metrics: Look at NOS curves for Holo May: https://www.stereophile.com/content/holoaudio-may-level-3-da-processor-measurements


----------



## GoldenOne (Apr 22, 2022)

alphaman said:


> The claims GoldenSound is making about the Ares II _not_ being able to do true NOS (in NOS mode), and that a triangle-shaped step response is proof of false NOS is non-nonsensical.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The triangle shaped IR is proof because it is not something that can be implemented in the analog domain and could not possibly result from NOS operation.
A NOS impulse can either be a straight NOS/Zero-Order-Hold impulse (which will show effectively a square wave of 1 sample width), or if there is an analog low-pass filter such as in the Holo or Metrum DACs then the rectangle will appear rounded because of the frequencies above 80khz (or whatever the LPF is configured for) are attenuated.

Linear interpolation requires digital domain processing as it requires advance knowledge of the value of the next sample.

Additionally, looking at the IR at a higher sample rate you can see the individual steps caused by the true sampling rate of the DAC. (These would not be present if it were either NOS or an analog domain implementation)





There is also the mathematical demonstration of rolloff. The rolloff @ nyquist is predictable and the Ares 2 follows the expected level for linear interpolation, and rolls off more than a NOS dac would.

This is not to say this is a 'bad' thing.
Filter design IMO is a preference thing and whilst some are overall more appropriate or questionable than others at the end of the day if you like the resulting sound of any particular reconstruction approach that's great.
The issue is that calling this 'NOS' is not accurate.


A bit of further info copied from my Terminator Plus written post:

Looking at NOS first; NOS means non-oversampling. The DAC does not do any interpolation or filtering in the digital domain, and as a result, the DAC will simply hold the output level, and when a new sample arrives, it moves the output level up/down to meet that new sample, then holds there until the next sample, repeat.
This means that for an impulse response, where there is silence, then one sample, then silence, it will look like a square.






Sample 1: still 0/silence. Dac continues holding at 0 output
Sample 2: Higher level, DAC moves output level up to meet it, then holds
Sample 3: 0 Again, DAC immediately moves down to meet it, then holds
Sample 4: Still silence, DAC will continue holding.
Here is a real world example of that from the Phasure NOS1 DAC:





But here is the Terminator Plus Impulse:





Not very square! So what’s going on? Well, it is because the DAC is linearly interpolating, adding samples in a straight line from one sample to the next. It *IS* oversampling.






Terminator Plus impulse (Green)
NOS impulse (Blue)
After sample 1, the T+ moves in a straight line toward sample 2, knowing where it is in advance. It does not hold, and instead immediately begins linearly interpolating once again back toward sample three.

Why is this a concern? Well firstly, Linear interpolation has more treble rolloff than actual NOS, and so as we saw on the Ares 2, the ‘NOS’ mode has about 3dB higher rolloff than a true NOS DAC does.






Linear Interpolation gives a squared sinc frequency response
PI/2 ( so 22.05k @ 44.1k sample rate ) SIN(PI/2) / (PI/2) gives us -3.9dB droop for a NOS
PI/2 ( so 22.05k @ 44.1k sample rate ) (SIN(PI/2) / (PI/2))^2 gives us -7.84dB droop for a for a linear interpolate


Additionally, where NOS will have the directly vertical activity at exactly 44.1khz (or whatever the sample rate is), linear interpolation creates random added distortion as the angle of signal from sample to sample changes constantly. This is more akin to IMD and likely more audible.






15khz sine wave, denafrips ‘NOS’
So no, unfortunately the Terminator plus ‘NOS’ is just linear interpolation oversampling, not actual NOS.

What about that ‘oversampling to 1.536mhz’?
Well, this we can check as well.

Firstly, when looking at the wideband spectrum, we can see a big spike at 352.8khz, which moves to 384khz when we give the dac 48khz source rate files.





We can therefore rule out 1.536mhz OS right away because the spur at 352.8khz would not be visible because 1.536mhz sample rate gives a bandwidth of 768khz.

We can see similar behaviour on the Schiit Yggdrasil, which upsamples to 192khz, and so we see a spur at 192khz and multiples upwards.






Schiit Yggdrasil ‘MIL’ wideband view of 1khz tone.
Secondly, we can utilise the 2.5mhz sample rate of the APx555 to look a bit deeper at what’s happening.
Looking at both the ‘NOS’ and OS impulse responses, we can see a stepping behaviour, indicating the true speed the ladders are operating at.






OS Sharp






'NOS’
Between each sample there are eight ‘steps’, indicating again an OS rate of 8x or 384khz/352.8khz.

So it would seem that no, the T+ does NOT upsample to 1.536mhz, and also cannot run NOS.
I do not know why these seemingly false claims about the product are made, especially when it objectively performs very well for an R2R dac, and subjectively sounds very good. There does not seem to be much reason to lie, but whatever the reason, false marketing should always be called out even if the product is otherwise very very good (which the T+ is, it sounds great).


----------



## sajunky (Apr 22, 2022)

GoldenOne said:


> A NOS impulse can either be a straight NOS/Zero-Order-Hold impulse (which will show effectively a square wave of 1 sample width), or if there is an analog low-pass filter such as in the Holo or Metrum DACs then the rectangle will appear rounded because of the frequencies above 80khz (or whatever the LPF is configured for) are attenuated.


You have presented this opinion in the other thread which I opposed, as the beginning phase of charging capacitor is a straight line. Further tests prove your point, also the other argumentation is correct.

Is Holo Audio response rounded? - Not true. In JA tests it was showing a small ringing that disappeared when testing with 2.5GHz ADC sampling rate of the analyzer. I was initially blaimining digital filtering, but your further test revealed a true reason for such ringing. It is because there is a random ultrasonic scrambling noise added to the music before conversion. Energy of a scrambling noise that is close to the Nyquist frequency cause ringing. This is a truth you have proven yourself, still not admitting...

Digital filtering in Holo Audio in addition to scrambling is still there, JA was pointing to the rolloff figures, giving numbers what is expected from NOS and what is found there.

For the above reason Holo Audio DAC is also (like Denafrips) not NOS, for a different reason.


----------



## GoldenOne (Apr 22, 2022)

sajunky said:


> You have presented this opinion in the other thread which I opposed, as the beginning phase of charging capacitor is a straight line. Further tests prove your point, also the other argumentation is correct.
> 
> Is Holo Audio response rounded? - Not true. In JA tests it was showing a small ringing that disappeared when testing with 2.5GHz ADC sampling rate of the analyzer. I was initially blaimining digital filtering, but your further test revealed a true reason for such ringing. It is because there is a random ultrasonic scrambling noise added to the music before conversion. Energy of a scrambling noise that is close to the Nyquist frequency cause ringing. This is a truth you have proven yourself, still not admitting...
> 
> ...


We've discussed this point before and I've shown practical demonstrations as well.
I'm not going to go round in circles with you for the 100th time.

For those wondering.
The ringing in JA's test was because he used a 192khz ADC sample rate.
Use a higher sample rate to fully capture all content in the impulse response and it is not present.

There is also no 'scrambling noise' and I'm not entirely sure what this would be referring to.


----------



## sajunky

GoldenOne said:


> We've discussed this point before and I've shown practical demonstrations as well.
> I'm not going to go round in circles with you for the 100th time.
> 
> For those wondering.
> ...


Scrambling ultrasonic noise close to the Nyquist frequency of the analyzer's ADC (~100kHz) cause this ringing, it is a fact. A classic case of ringing due to the limited bandwith, but you tried to blame a limited bandwith test pattern. This is not true, as other NOS DACs like from Audio Note do not show ringing when JA tested them using the same test sample and the analyzer.


----------



## GoldenOne (Apr 22, 2022)

sajunky said:


> Scrambling ultrasonic noise close to the Nyquist frequency of the analyzer's ADC (~100kHz) cause this ringing, it is a fact. A classic case of ringing due to the limited bandwith, but you tried to blame a limited bandwith test pattern. This is not true, as other NOS DACs like from Audio Note do not show ringing when JA tested them using the same test sample and the analyzer.


It is not a fact.

John Atkinson himself literally said it was because of the ADC sample rate....

As said before I'm not going to go round in circles with you when you're just repeating the same unfounded claims with 0 evidence. So I'll just repost what I posted last time you said this ( https://www.head-fi.org/threads/an-...st-and-holo-may-hqplayer.952934/post-16605353 )

Also if there was added noise/'scrambling' around 100khz then you'd clearly be able to see it when looking at a bandwidth above 100khz. And yet we do not.....


sajunky said:


> JA test is linked on the top.


And as another user already pointed out, JA in that very article says:

"Ignore the very small amount of symmetrical ringing before and after the single full-scale sample, which is due to the antialiasing filter of Audio Precision's A/D converter operating at a sample rate of 200kHz"

You then claimed that JA was wrong:


sajunky said:


> JA has skills and years of experience, I can't believe that he made such a wrong assessment.



This is not true at all.
You cannot capture a square wave, true NOS impulse response, or other signal that has content outside the nyquist frequency. It is mathematically impossible.

When we generate as perfect a square wave as we can, it looks like this, that is assuming you have sufficient bandwidth, in the case of this screenshot, the ADC is running at 2.5mhz.

Now if we change nothing other than the ADC sample rate, to the 192khz that JA was running:


Now we can see that the square wave is not perfect. Not because it isn't perfect in reality, but because we are not sampling at a high enough bandwidth to capture it. If we look in further we can see the ringing artifacts more clearly.


If we reduce our ADC sample rate to 44.1khz then because of our further reduced bandwidth limitation, this effect gets stronger:

We can even use a minimum phase filter on the ADC and the type of ringing changes:


So as John Atkinson said in that article. The ringing shown on that IR is due to the ADC sampling rate he was using. There is no such thing as infinite bandwidth, and no amount of production, mastering etc will change the basic principles (nyquist theory) upon which digital audio works.

If you have some actual evidence for your claim that Holo is using DSP (or any of the other claims you've made about various products then refused to back up), please share it.
Otherwise please stop making unsubstantiated claims about brands you don't like, and picking/choosing information to craft the story you want to tell. You can't use JA's graph as 'proof' but then say that his explanation of said graph is completely wrong....


----------



## sajunky (Apr 22, 2022)

This is true.


GoldenOne said:


> John Atkinson himself literally said it was because of the ADC sample rate....


This is also true.


GoldenOne said:


> So as John Atkinson said in that article. The ringing shown on that IR is due to the ADC sampling rate he was using.


However I made a point *twice in the row* (you can't read) that 1kHz test sample do not cause the same limited bandwith ringing when testing Audio Note DACs which we know there are true NOS. Using the same limited bandwith analyzer and a test sample. Find something else, you do not answer to the arguments.


----------



## alphaman

GoldenSound:
Your video on the Ares 2 (and many of the graphs you show, which I assume are your own measurements) are confusing. 
What's this (you claim it is an "impulse response"???? wha??????????????? never seen anything like before ...  it in textbooks, journal papers, etc): 






In any case ...
The dirac impulse response that Stereophile has shown for all NOS dacs -- including all Denafrips -- are concordant with all prev. NOS dacs that Stereophile (and others) have measured. For example:
Ares II/Terminator (NOS)


----------



## sajunky (Apr 22, 2022)

alphaman said:


> What's this (you claim it is an "impulse response"???? wha??????????????? never seen anything like before ... it in textbooks, journal papers, etc):


This is right, look at the sampling rate 44.1kHz points, a time scale is on the top. One sample is low, a pulse is only one sample long. A triangle you see looks like a 16 oversampling points (not 8 as claimed), but in principle it is a triangle created by a linear interpolation in software.


----------



## alphaman

I’m literally on da crapper right now hopin’ on squeezin’ out a nice clean ‘un. Savin’ up on da TP… but da bathroom library is well stocked. Uhhhhhhnnnnn…..


----------



## GoldenOne

alphaman said:


> GoldenSound:
> Your video on the Ares 2 (and many of the graphs you show, which I assume are your own measurements) are confusing.
> What's this (you claim it is an "impulse response"???? wha??????????????? never seen anything like before ... it in textbooks, journal papers, etc):


An impulse response is an intentionally illegal PCM signal designed to test the filter design of an oversampling filter.
A single PCM sample with silence either side represents all possible frequencies at full scale, and so we can see how the DAC (or external oversampling) filters out content above nyquist frequency. You can derive frequency response from an impulse response and vice versa.




The above image shows the impulse response test file.
The vast majority of dacs will have a sinc filter that aims to attenuate everything past 22.05khz, though there are of course variances in design.

A typical linear phase impulse response test output will look like this (and this will likely be more recognisable):




and a typical minimum phase output will look like this:





I'm not sure if Dirac is doing anything specifically different, but the idea with that is that an impulse response test is played, and the result in your room is recorded.
Based on the result Dirac can then correct for any frequency response or phase discrepancies caused by the speakers/room itself. This isn't specific to Dirac though and is typically called 'convolution' elsewhere.


alphaman said:


> The dirac impulse response that Stereophile has shown for all NOS dacs -- including all Denafrips -- are concordant with all prev. NOS dacs that Stereophile (and others) have measured. For example:
> Ares II/Terminator (NOS)


In this case it's simply that he hasn't zoomed in very much. So you can't really see anything.
The image below was recorded at 768khz on an ADI-2 Pro ADC and is the one I'd posted before.




If we zoom out the timescale to about the same as what john atkinson showed then it looks like this:




JA's test isn't showing anything different, it's just not zoomed close enough to really see the shape of the IR


----------



## GoldenOne

sajunky said:


> However I made a point *twice in the row* (you can't read) that 1kHz test sample do not cause the same limited bandwith ringing when testing Audio Note DACs


1khz tests won't cause any ringing on any DAC because it isn't an illegal signal.

Ringing is an artefact caused by a filter trying to represent a signal which it does not have the bandwidth to represent. Such as a square wave.
If you feed only content under the nyquist frequency you will not have any ringing


----------



## alphaman

GoldenOne said:


> The image below was recorded at 768khz on an ADI-2 Pro ADC and is the one I'd posted before.
> 
> 
> If we zoom out the timescale to about the same as what john atkinson showed then it looks like this:
> ...


Oh, uh .... okay toots 
Another question fer ya toots .... characterize the architecture of a classic Philips DAC.


----------



## GoldenOne (Apr 23, 2022)

alphaman said:


> Oh, uh .... okay toots
> Another question fer ya toots .... characterize the architecture of a classic Philips DAC.


I'm not sure how this relates to the discussion?


----------



## sajunky (Apr 23, 2022)

GoldenOne said:


> 1khz tests won't cause any ringing on any DAC because it isn't an illegal signal.
> 
> Ringing is an artefact caused by a filter trying to represent a signal which it does not have the bandwidth to represent. Such as a square wave.
> If you feed only content under the nyquist frequency you will not have any ringing


How this relates to the text you are quoting?

Asking because you was just trying to teach us about square 1kHz test sample response, not a sine waveform. A pulse sample as used by JA brings similar results. No ringing on Audio Note DACs, but ringing on the Holo Audio DACs. Answer this question why it happen.


----------



## rudy49

ProLoL said:


> The only problem with the ares2 is that if you start to listen to music you don't stop even though you planned doing something else.


i agree, it's very engaging. not something for easy listening.


----------



## alphaman (Apr 25, 2022)

sajunky said:


> How this relates to the text you are quoting?
> 
> Asking because you was just trying to teach us about square 1kHz test sample response, not a sine waveform. A pulse sample as used by JA brings similar results. No ringing on Audio Note DACs, but ringing on the Holo Audio DACs. Answer this question why it happen.


*SAJUNKY:* You make valid points. I suggest you post GoldenSound's video and links to his forum output (Audiophilestyle, THIS thread on head-fi, etc; see Refs below) on diyaudio's forum. Or, I'd encourage GoldenSound himself to post his claims directly. I would do it myself but I have been banned from that place for being overly critical of their moderation.

In any case, DIYAUDIO is the *best* place to set the record straight on the Denafrips R2R technical issues because:

- they get a lot of daily traffic (from people with actual experience -- both subjective and objective)
- they have a membership from some of Philips' (Holland) orig. design team
- the long Soekris thread and experience from experiments with the Soekris project (which similar to Denafrips design)
- lots of DIYers with non-oversampling knowlwdge
-etc.

You may want to include the following references:

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/62872-denafrips-dacs-might-not-actually-be-nos/
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/denafrips-ares-ii-not-nos.25104/

https://goldensound.audio/2021/07/13/denafrips-ares-2-measurements-and-review/


----------



## 314Rye

It would be interesting to know how this information that Ares 2 may be a not real NOS dac has effected to the listening experiences related to Ares 2. Has the music started to cause less invigorating listening experiences among Ares listeners after these shocking news?


----------



## GoldenOne

314Rye said:


> It would be interesting to know how this information that Ares 2 may be a not real NOS dac has effected to the listening experiences related to Ares 2. Has the music started to cause less invigorating listening experiences among Ares listeners after these shocking news?


I'd hope not unless someone was expectation-biasing themselves to a ridiculous extent
The Ares 2 is a great sounding DAC


----------



## sajunky (Apr 26, 2022)

314Rye said:


> It would be interesting to know how this information that Ares 2 may be a not real NOS dac has effected to the listening experiences related to Ares 2. Has the music started to cause less invigorating listening experiences among Ares listeners after these shocking news?


It makes you less comfortable, and yes, listening pleasure very depends on our mood. However I don't think you bought Ares for the invigorating listening experience, but for a smooth signature and not fatiguing sound, so I don't think knowing this fact will affect your mood. Ares sound is like NOS, just is less aggressive, less punchy than true NOS implementations, more relaxing. Note that a linear interpolation is a reconstruction method without any use of DSP.

A different impact is observed on Holo Audio users. It is not surprising, as they didn't buy it for digital pre-processing or a blured dynamics due to added ultrasonic frequency scrambling (similar in effect to the noise shaping in Delta-Sigma implementations), but for a natural sound NOS can produce. Some users reported on the beginning that Holo didn't sound like NOS DAC, but more similar to DS implementations. The reviewers even targeted for comparison not R2R DACs, but Chord DACs which are DS type. In such situation facts that Holo Audio DAC is not a true NOS are very disturbing and may not be even admissible, due to our human nature.


----------



## sajunky (Apr 26, 2022)

alphaman said:


> *SAJUNKY:* You make valid points. I suggest you post GoldenSound's video and links to his forum output (Audiophilestyle, THIS thread on head-fi, etc; see Refs below) on diyaudio's forum. Or, I'd encourage GoldenSound himself to post his claims directly. I would do it myself but I have been banned from that place for being overly critical of their moderation.
> 
> In any case, DIYAUDIO is the *best* place to set the record straight on the Denafrips R2R technical issues because:


I am not going to go after Denafrips case, due to a minor violation of rules with no DSP involved, see my previous post.

However I have already raised Holo Audio case on the diyaudio forum, not knowing that someone else had raised the same objection a thousand messages back, in the same thread. This technically oriented community had no problems understanding arguments presented about presence of digital filtering, there was only one objection which was cleared out after supplying additional explanation. The other violation (ultrasonic scrambling used for linearizing ladder errors) could not be proven remotely, but it prompted discussion about dithering techniques in general, with various links to scientific papers, chosing optimal parameters and even bringing up 'Havana' case as an example of using US made ultrasonic military jamming device. Interesting thread, but very long, you must be patient, here is a link. 

https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/what-do-you-think-makes-nos-sound-different.371931/


----------



## MacMan31

I have long been interested in this DAC. It seems to sell fast on the used market such as on CAM. I have a Bifrost II already so is the Ares II worth the purchase? Has anyone here compared the two?


----------



## Serge Bernamej (Apr 26, 2022)

Hello gentlemen, need some help please !
I have a NAD m51, I play ONLY CDs using a CD transport. Is it worth buying the Denafrips Ares ? Upgrade from the NAD M51 ?
Wou.d immensely appreciate your responses.


----------



## Baten

MacMan31 said:


> I have long been interested in this DAC. It seems to sell fast on the used market such as on CAM. I have a Bifrost II already so is the Ares II worth the purchase? Has anyone here compared the two?


IMO no.


----------



## sajunky

Baten said:


> IMO no.


NO - To the first or second question?


----------



## halo26

sajunky said:


> NO - To the first or second question?


..... and that's why in american courtrooms,  they don't allow compound questions.....


----------



## Baten

sajunky said:


> NO - To the first or second question?


Haha, sorry. I would think Bifrost 2 is excellent enough that Ares II is not worth the purchase, would save for something even higher end or just be happy with B2. My opinion


----------



## Sebbai

Anyone know if it is possible to increase RCA output Voltage to 3V? Touching the limit with my Bakoon 13r, when using EQ with my HE6


----------



## Baten

Sebbai said:


> Anyone know if it is possible to increase RCA output Voltage to 3V? Touching the limit with my Bakoon 13r, when using EQ with my HE6


I don't believe there is such an option?


----------



## Benno1988

Venus II vs Pontus II?


----------



## alphaman (Apr 29, 2022)

Hi y'all. I was banned from this thread for a few dayz -- a move from the da Modz *I totally support and agree with.* Thank you for all the get-well cards and emotional "miss-ya" Tweets 
From the BOTTOM o' me bum, ... well what can I say ... but ...well .... here is the Ares II, gatherin' dust, on the BOTTOM:


----------



## alphaman (Apr 29, 2022)

There were some mod-deleted posts of mine -- a few days ago -- that I think were ACCIDENTALLY deleted because the noise-reduction the moderators used was Dolby B ...  (when it should've been Dolby C). The 'fessive posts ... I totally agree ... deserved to be excommunicated ... because they were ... ummm..... 'ffensive.

But not these two (y'all are welcome for the re-education)...


> Unsure about Denafrips Ares 2 and the NOS issue (BTW: I do own that DAC, a mid-2020 purchase). It is possible that Ares 2's pre-conversion section components -- unrelated to the oversampling DSP -- are doing some signal processing of their own. E.g., the USB chip, the input decoder, the SRC, etc.
> 
> That said, JA did find the Ares 2/Terminator impulse-response graph characteristic of non-oversampling D/A conversion. GoldenSounds' claims and the graphs he provides in his write-up and video are ... ahem ... UNIQUE.


==


> I'm unsure about the early (first/second gen. CD player) Sony DACs' internal architecture -- but the early Japanese CDPs had no oversampling.
> 
> That said, ... R2R dacs used for digital audio playback (made by Analog Devices, Burr-Brown, et. al.) FIRST came into application well into the age of dedicated-IC oversampling. One could even speculate that Analog Devices, Burr-Brown, et. al. INTENDED their DAC ICs to be used *with* oversampling.
> 
> ...



(BTW: as I noted in the head-fi Denafrips/BlackHole thread, i do have a sites.google.com site that captures EVERY forum HTML page and many screen-captures as well ... PM me for more details).


----------



## Chesty

Benno1988 said:


> Venus II vs Pontus II?


Venus II, simply because I bought one!


----------



## maiieu

Benno1988 said:


> Venus II vs Pontus II?


I would buy Pontus II & Hermes for the same price tag of Venus II.


----------



## Benno1988

maiieu said:


> I would buy Pontus II & Hermes for the same price tag of Venus II.


I see. The Hermes is a DDC?

Is the Pontus as good as the Venus?


----------



## maiieu

Benno1988 said:


> I see. The Hermes is a DDC?
> 
> Is the Pontus as good as the Venus?


Yes, the Hermes is a DDC.

IMO, the pontus is better value than the venus. And in the future you may upgrade the pontus to the terminator to pair with the Hermes.


----------



## Benno1988

What ouptu/input Hermes to DAC?


----------



## maiieu

Benno1988 said:


> What ouptu/input Hermes to DAC?


Hdmi i2s


----------



## shafat777

maiieu said:


> Yes, the Hermes is a DDC.
> 
> IMO, the pontus is better value than the venus. And in the future you may upgrade the pontus to the terminator to pair with the Hermes.


I agree wholeheartedly.

With the Hermes DDC, the Pontus 2 performs extremely well for its price. If you already have the Hermes, then get a pontus 2 and save some money for the Venus. However, as an overall package, the venus 2 gives better performance.


----------



## Arion128

Buying the Denafrips Ares 2 for those in HK


----------



## SnookHaus

I am looking to buy an original Denafrips Ares 1 if anyone has one they are thinking about selling.


----------



## halo26

Relative newbie, please bear in mind. 
Which mode of the ares 2 dac MOST resembles the characteristic euphonic tube sound, which mode is most like Ss sound: Nos, os slow, os fast?


(I don't know if the genre of music affects the answer,  but i listen to classical and some jazz)
PS.  I mainly use the ares2 with an asgaard amp, which is ss


----------



## godmax

As a short long-term report after the V3.12.0 firmware update:
The known issue of the Ares II regarding the random out-of-sync USB buffer bug that caused noise and crackling (and only could be cured with play/pause or changing the buffer size in the driver control), seems to be finally solved! Never happend again with my Ares II after the update in Dezember.
Great job and product support from Denafrips and @alvin1118.


----------



## ]eep

halo26 said:


> Relative newbie, please bear in mind.
> Which mode of the ares 2 dac MOST resembles the characteristic euphonic tube sound, which mode is most like Ss sound: Nos, os slow, os fast?
> 
> 
> ...


Just leave it as is. That means NOS and slow roll-off. 

Generally the steeper filters are the more they affect phase. So Nos and slow leaves the signal be as much as possible (regardless the discussion about what happens to the incoming signal, if it's 'not real Nos', it sounds very natural and un-exaggerated).


----------



## GoldenOne

]eep said:


> Just leave it as is. That means NOS and slow roll-off.
> 
> Generally the steeper filters are the more they affect phase. So Nos and slow leaves the signal be as much as possible (regardless the discussion about what happens to the incoming signal, if it's 'not real Nos', it sounds very natural and un-exaggerated).


Both the slow and steep filter in the Ares 2 are phase-linear filters.


----------



## halo26

Thank you.   I was under the impression that the slow/fast filter was only active in OS mode,  and that in NOS  mode the filters didn't do anything.   Was i incorrect?


----------



## GoldenOne

halo26 said:


> Thank you.   I was under the impression that the slow/fast filter was only active in OS mode,  and that in NOS  mode the filters didn't do anything.   Was i incorrect?


That's correct.
In OS mode, you can pick between slow and fast filters.
In NOS, it uses a linear interpolation filter (not actually NOS but hey).

There isn't a 'correct' answer as to which is best. Best just to try all three and see which fits your prefs


----------



## dermott

Any comments on where Soekris DACs fall when it comes to *performance* against the Ares II (or Denafrips in general)? Build quality seems like Denafrips takes it easily, but what about sound? Would the Soekris 1421 compare to the Ares II? Would the 2541 best the Ares II but clearly fall short of the Pontus II?


----------



## roderickvd (Jun 1, 2022)

I owned a Soekris dam1121 before with a self-built linear power supplies. Digital power from quad LT3045's, analog from a AMB σ22. Both from their own toroidal transformers. It was fed I2S from a Raspbery Pi 3B+, galvanically isolated with an IanCanada IsolatorPi II and reclocked by a Allo Kali 22/24 MHz. I have tried all sorts of filters both stock and custom filter packs.

It's good to remember that the Soekris units are mostly built around this same dam1121 module. What differs between the dacxxxx ranges is the number of modules (ladders), power supply topology, buffer stage and input/output connections. Of course the PSU and buffer stages as well as general hardware layout will impact the final result, but at its core they are all built around this same DAC module. I think that my PSU's and output buffer (none) are amongst the best that can be had.

I now own a Ares II.

Objectively I think both the Soekris units and the Ares II have measured very well on the likes of ASR and SBAF.

Technically - the level of implementation being equal - I think the Ares II leads by a few points.

Most importantly, it has dedicated oscillators whereas the Soekris has a single programmable clock. By definition a programmable clock will never reach the same level of performance as a dedicated clock (again, assuming both are of good build quality) and indeed it cannot match the jitter figures. Worse, the Soekris uses a PLL-like algorithm to track the input clock and program its oscillator accordingly. This algorithm has been shown on diyAudio to be unstable (and as control systems theory also dictates, a follower will never be as good as the incoming clock) causing the programmable clock to shift continuously. In short, the Ares clock is much better, offering lower jitter and perhaps more importantly: clock stability.

Second: the Ares PSU is linear from an oversized toroid. The latest Soekris incarnations are SMPS. In the end this may down boil down to preference (I for sure know that Hypex makes SMPS's with jaw-dropping measurements and the dac2541 is excellent too) but again, build quality being the same I think that linear supplies have the edge here.

Third: Coupling capacitors in the Ares are much higher grade Nichicon's (from the top of my head) where on the Soekris they are SMD-type.

Subjectively, I have never liked the stock Soekris filters. I don't find them engaging or dynamic. This became especially apparent for me when I switch to custom NOS filters (quasi-NOS, like in the Ares). These do make the Soekris come to life. To me, the Ares' stock filters are like the best custom Soekris filters. Out-of-the-box they are very good. I am still on the fence whether I like OS slow or NOS better.

Circling back, remember that all Soekris DAC's revolve around the same module. I think the Ares II will be better than the dac2541 because it has several technical advantages. I would say both are engineered equally well (not talking about the aesthetics) and so that technical advantage can and does shine. Certainly the clocking!


----------



## sajunky

dermott said:


> Any comments on where Soekris DACs fall when it comes to *performance* against the Ares II (or Denafrips in general)? Build quality seems like Denafrips takes it easily, but what about sound? Would the Soekris 1421 compare to the Ares II? Would the 2541 best the Ares II but clearly fall short of the Pontus II?


I agree with the previous response. I want to add that 2541 is not fully balanced DAC, ladder decoder is not. I have no issue with use of SMPS, but a design is simplified comparing the model it replaced, it is why I mention this. It is made cheaper and a digital volume control is implemented to address a mass market, not a serious audiophile user. On the positive side, it has isolator on the USB port, it means it will perform more consistent in various systems.

Ares has no such price cuts except a missing USB isolator. It can satisfy real audiophile requirements, by example there is no opamps in the signal path. I can recommend Ares without reservation. 

In the Soekris thread you asked question regarding use of XLR output for headphones. With Ares you can't, it has a passive output, it cannot be heavy loaded. 

If you want a combo with headphone amp/preamp I suggest to look at Audio GD R2R-11Mk2. Sound has a different character, is more dynamic and natural sounding, while Ares more calm and relaxing. NOS is the only mode available, no digital processing.


----------



## dermott

Thank you, both. Lots of good info!


----------



## elnero

roderickvd said:


> I owned a Soekris dam1121 before with a self-built linear power supplies. Digital power from quad LT3045's, analog from a AMB σ22. Both from their own toroidal transformers. It was fed I2S from a Raspbery Pi 3B+, galvanically isolated with an IanCanada IsolatorPi II and reclocked by a Allo Kali 22/24 MHz. I have tried all sorts of filters both stock and custom filter packs.
> 
> It's good to remember that the Soekris units are mostly built around this same dam1121 module. What differs between the dacxxxx ranges is the number of modules (ladders), power supply topology, buffer stage and input/output connections. Of course the PSU and buffer stages as well as general hardware layout will impact the final result, but at its core they are all built around this same DAC module. I think that my PSU's and output buffer (none) are amongst the best that can be had.
> 
> ...


This is some great information. I've heard others talk about using custom filters on the Soekris DAC's but I never bothered to look into them. I'm curious, what custom filters do you prefer and where does one get them?


----------



## roderickvd

There is a thread on diyAudio called “filter brewing” for the Soekris DACs or something like that. 

I very much liked the C128dp filter as well as many of the later filters by user “gumisb” that I called NewNOS++. The very latest packs were experimental and I found them not as good. If you go into that thread you will find me posting links to specific downloads. It’s been a while so I don’t remember now from the top of my head.

On the Soekris I was a NOS guy but many have liked a custom linear filter by a user TNT as well.


----------



## elnero

roderickvd said:


> There is a thread on diyAudio called “filter brewing” for the Soekris DACs or something like that.
> 
> I very much liked the C128dp filter as well as many of the later filters by user “gumisb” that I called NewNOS++. The very latest packs were experimental and I found them not as good. If you go into that thread you will find me posting links to specific downloads. It’s been a while so I don’t remember now from the top of my head.
> 
> On the Soekris I was a NOS guy but many have liked a custom linear filter by a user TNT as well.


Thanks for the info. I just poked around on diyAudio and, according to post #2388 in the filter brewing thread, the dac2541 doesn't support custom filters yet. Thought I might give some a try on the dac2541 I have here but I guess not.


----------



## lostrockets

dermott said:


> Any comments on where Soekris DACs fall when it comes to *performance* against the Ares II (or Denafrips in general)? Build quality seems like Denafrips takes it easily, but what about sound? Would the Soekris 1421 compare to the Ares II? Would the 2541 best the Ares II but clearly fall short of the Pontus II?


i had a chance to do some a/b testing with the ares and soekris 1321, on both my stax setup and speakers the past few weeks and ultimately i couldnt tell much of a difference and sold off the ares. the differences are very subtle at least from the music i listened to.


----------



## Ufanco

Considering getting a new dac, I’m currently using the Shanling M6 pro 21 but thinking of something better to replace it with. The r2r have caught my eye so trying decide what one would suit me the best. 
Planning on using iPad 4 air as source and between the Bitfrost 2, Ares 2 or possible the Pegasus. My main concern is warranty and buying used. 
Has anyone had issues with there Ares 2 that had to use warranty? My understanding is the Ares warranty is transferable but requires the seller to transfer it over. So would rather find one on here that’s being sold by a longtime head fi member that would transfer it over. 
Anyways guess question is how reliable the Ares 2 is and double checking that it work with apple iPad 4 (one of the main issue with Shanling is it doesn’t work as usb dac). Also if anyone considering selling there’s keep me in mind.


----------



## alvin1118

@Ufanco , the warranty is transferable from the original owner to the second owner. 
Please reach out to us at support@vinshineaudio.com should you need help. 


Ares II works with Android and iOS. FYI:






https://www.vinshineaudio.com/post/smartphone-tablet-denafrips-dac


----------



## Ufanco

After weeks of reading reviews forums and along with many emails I have decided to go with the Ares ii. I’ll like to thank Alvin for taking the time to quickly answer my question, along with the member of this forum who offered help.
Bought this mainly to be used in my iem system. I feel it with the Xduoo ta20 and Mest mk ii it should have a nice warm sound signature and be different than the dac I am using. 
I‘m also going try it on my home system, have a feeling it fit right in with my older collection of gear. I believe good gear last, so home system it Denon AVR 3803 7.1 klipsch speakers with a svs subwoofer. I mainly use a Pioneer 563a sacd/dvda player as a source with home system so I’m curious to hear what the Ares ii using hi rez source sounds vs the Pioneer.
Now that the hard choice been is made it’s just finding some descent cables to hook it all up. 
​


----------



## szore

Ufanco said:


> After weeks of reading reviews forums and along with many emails I have decided to go with the Ares ii. I’ll like to thank Alvin for taking the time to quickly answer my question, along with the member of this forum who offered help.
> Bought this mainly to be used in my iem system. I feel it with the Xduoo ta20 and Mest mk ii it should have a nice warm sound signature and be different than the dac I am using.
> I‘m also going try it on my home system, have a feeling it fit right in with my older collection of gear. I believe good gear last, so home system it Denon AVR 3803 7.1 klipsch speakers with a svs subwoofer. I mainly use a Pioneer 563a sacd/dvda player as a source with home system so I’m curious to hear what the Ares ii using hi rez source sounds vs the Pioneer.
> Now that the hard choice been is made it’s just finding some descent cables to hook it all up.
> ​


I just boughtMoon Audio black dragon xlr


----------



## roderickvd

I'm using XLR cables from World's Best Cables: quad Canare with Neutrik connectors. Great stuff. Enjoy your purchase.


----------



## szore

In fact I just got that moon audio xlr and I'm very impressed with the build quality!


----------



## dougms3

szore said:


> In fact I just got that moon audio xlr and I'm very impressed with the build quality!


Moon audio makes some nice cables.


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## szore (Jun 25, 2022)

I have another ares and the case is different...I wonder if anything inside has changed?


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## whitedragem (Jun 25, 2022)

Ufanco said:


> After weeks of reading reviews forums and along with many emails I have decided to go with the Ares ii. I’ll like to thank Alvin for taking the time to quickly answer my question, along with the member of this forum who offered help.
> Bought this mainly to be used in my iem system. I feel it with the Xduoo ta20 and Mest mk ii it should have a nice warm sound signature and be different than the dac I am using.
> I‘m also going try it on my home system, have a feeling it fit right in with my older collection of gear. I believe good gear last, so home system it Denon AVR 3803 7.1 klipsch speakers with a svs subwoofer. I mainly use a Pioneer 563a sacd/dvda player as a source with home system so I’m curious to hear what the Ares ii using hi rez source sounds vs the Pioneer.
> Now that the hard choice been is made it’s just finding some descent cables to hook it all up.
> ​


you will want to defeat all processing on that AVR (I had it and would NEVER use it for audio (snob alert))..
if you use the all channel stereo mode, your best bet to keep all your speakers engaged, it would be a waste of the ares…
to that amp, whilst cables might make a subtle difference (or a noticable difference if you spent ‘big money’), the point of a nice external amp is lost.
the problem with AVR sound is that they achieve ‘good sound’ by using lots of speakers and DSP control and RE-EQ for their soundfield.

Two channel setups care about room placement of the individual speakers..

Back in the nineties when AV processors started to come to market, and for the decade that followed, flagship parts could easily be ‘upgraded’ by using the OLD stereo amplifier in the users setup to keep the front left and right functioning..
In a setup like that, playing with cables might be more worthwhile.
As someone who uses an Anthem processor and powered using flagship surround amplifiers (as power amps) (double+ the cost of the Denon you are using), I find that setup ‘unlistenable’ for two channel audio (nicely mastered stuff)(fine for ‘mass market/made for radio compressed recordings etc),..

I say this simply because I have heard the Denafrips in a nice two channel system (second hand parts <$2K total budget(not including DAC) which also including a dedicated new CD transport), and the location of some test track samples were placed beyond any DAC I had tested prior.
Given the best surround amps wouldn’t put out 1/3rd the soundfield depth of ‘that basic two channel system’ (using an entry level stereo amp), what ‘richness’ and layering and ‘benefit‘ you would gain from a nice DAC, would be mostly lost to surround amp and likely a room untuned for two channel speaker setup.

Save money on the cables (and I AM a ‘cable guy’).
Don’t get me wrong.. I completely agree with notion of old parts are great value(eg the SACD player you use was fantastic way to get into the format),.. but I have an old processor -a Proceed AVP2 that is more hifi in ‘dolby surround’, than the Denon is with lossless ‘trueHD..
The Denons best trick is the Re-Eq (subwoofer is TIGHT with the main speakers and awesome steering), but none of that circuitry can be engaged in the AVR, otherwise you are simply doing an Analogue to Digital pass on your nicely Digital to Analogue’d sound (from the Denafrips).

It is still an exceptional DAC, and literally it threw sounds 80feet back in the soundstage that, prior I had only heard 50-60 feet back ‘at best’.. (and it makes every instrument sound natural, at all volume levels, and doesn’t run out of steam when the full band kicks in (like some DACs)).
Grab the Denafrips, sure, but I wouldn’t ‘go crazy’ on nice cables for in into the AVR.. (beyond a basic price point).. again,.. I say this as a person who has many sets of nice cables,.. but AVRs just aren’t a good investment for DACs and nice cables. (Seperate processors and power amps are a ‘different story’, but need to be big cost to match even fairly budget ‘2 channel’ kit.).

Having recently rotated out a Yamaha Aventage amp (or a range of flagship surround amps from ‘earlier’ in history) as doing main duty in my two channel setup (my valve monos need a service), it amazed me how basic budget two channel amps just ‘did better’. (ie a Denon DRA-700ae)
The benefit of having an AVR in place was being able to look at the speaker re-eq plots and moving my main left right speakers until they achieved ‘close to flatline’ without needing to re-eq (and then swapping in a ‘stereo amp’!).

not trying to be bearer of bad news (the Denon AVR sounds musical if you have no other reference,.. just trying to save ye come coin on cables..)

edit: vs the Pioneer DVD player; if you gave up the ‘multi channel input’ on the surround receiver(best way to possibly bypass internal decoding/ADC) it will blow it away.. as would a NuForce IconHD -a budget DAC approx a decade old)


----------



## sajunky

^^^THIS


----------



## Ufanco (Jun 25, 2022)

whitedragem said:


> you will want to defeat all processing on that AVR (I had it and would NEVER use it for audio (snob alert))..
> if you use the all channel stereo mode, your best bet to keep all your speakers engaged, it would be a waste of the ares…
> to that amp, whilst cables might make a subtle difference (or a noticable difference if you spent ‘big money’), the point of a nice external amp is lost.
> the problem with AVR sound is that they achieve ‘good sound’ by using lots of speakers and DSP control and RE-EQ for their soundfield.
> ...


Excellent points figure Ares ii wouldn’t be used much with home setup since it more set up for TV viewing. It’s something I will least play around with. The Denon does has a pure direct mode that turns off all video related circuits and digital processing and only uses the front two speakers. Not the greatest I know but should be fun to mess with. Have some blue Jean rca cables that should work in this setup. I used a sound meter to set up surround system so will adust just the 2 fronts speakers in direct mode. 

Decided I‘m going just go with @roderickvd suggestion for xlr cables for iem setup. I‘m and still debating on what usb b to usb c cable to buy. I have a lot of usb c to c so might  just buy a adapter.
Ares ii has already shipped so I’m getting excited. I was pleasantly surprised to see the pre shipment test that where performed, it’s awesome to see a company test a item thoroughly before shipping. My experience is most electronics failures happen at first use, glad to see this wouldn’t be a concern.


----------



## whitedragem

Ufanco said:


> Excellent points figure Ares ii wouldn’t be used much with home setup since it more set up for TV viewing. It’s something I will least play around with. The Denon does has a pure direct mode that turns off all video related circuits and digital processing and only uses the front two speakers. Not the greatest I know but should be fun to mess with. Have some blue Jean rca cables that should work in this setup. I used a sound meter to set up surround system so will adust just the 2 fronts speakers in direct mode.
> 
> Decided I‘m going just go with @roderickvd suggestion for xlr cables for iem setup. I‘m and still debating on what usb b to usb c cable to buy. I have a lot of usb c to c so might  just buy a adapter.
> Ares ii has already shipped so I’m getting excited. I was pleasantly surprised to see the pre shipment test that where performed, it’s awesome to see a company test a item thoroughly before shipping. My experience is most electronics failures happen at first use, glad to see this wouldn’t be a concern.


Sweet; you’ve “got this”. (direct mode and ‘consideration to the two speakers’ (placement))

The break in on the Ares II is fantastic- I was fortunate enough to hear it at a friends house for the first XX hours.. literally the difference between the ‘thirty minute mark’ to ‘an hour and thirty minutes’ was incredible (hearing the decay on phase shifting guitars in concert halls) and the extension of the audience .. by the four hour mark the Ares II was happily placing the audiences echos (/applause) behind us.. Whilst I would argue with so many internal components that DO need some life on them to ‘gain their legs’, the expected time for audio improvements is ‘weeks’.
(my friend confirmed that too, with revisits to specific recordings at the month mark (and beyond) having gained absolute detail and improved the output quality…

Opening the box is ‘only the start of the journey’… let that baby cook (simply leave it turned on) for the initial month or so… (of course even better would be to have a DAP or ‘some digital source that can be left on’ to keep it well fed wink.gif)

(and not that I am apart of your present cable discussion- but yes, your existing RCA cables sound (ahem, pun not intended) like they should do the task well.
(and XLR cables, even at budget price points do ‘very well’, so anything better is just AWESOME!!)


----------



## Ufanco (Jun 25, 2022)

whitedragem said:


> Sweet; you’ve “got this”. (direct mode and ‘consideration to the two speakers’ (placement))
> 
> The break in on the Ares II is fantastic- I was fortunate enough to hear it at a friends house for the first XX hours.. literally the difference between the ‘thirty minute mark’ to ‘an hour and thirty minutes’ was incredible (hearing the decay on phase shifting guitars in concert halls) and the extension of the audience .. by the four hour mark the Ares II was happily placing the audiences echos (/applause) behind us.. Whilst I would argue with so many internal components that DO need some life on them to ‘gain their legs’, the expected time for audio improvements is ‘weeks’.
> (my friend confirmed that too, with revisits to specific recordings at the month mark (and beyond) having gained absolute detail and improved the output quality…
> ...


Funny you mentioned the break in period it’s one of the reason I decided to buy new. Personally hearing the improvements over time is a enjoyable part of the journey for me. Right now just trying get a good set of cables, in time I’ll circle back and look at higher end cables. I will appreciate them more then than now if that makes sense.
Not finding a lot of choice when come‘s to usb b to usb c cables. Here are a few i’m considering, if anyone else has suggestion on these or others I would appreciate any help or thoughts you can offer.

https://www.amazon.com/NEO-Oyaide-Type-C-Class-Cable/dp/B07ZRDH5C4/ref=sr_1_3?crid=142H4Q346IYHG&keywords=NEO+Oyaide+d++USB+Type-C+Class+B+Cable&qid=1656209231&s=electronics&sprefix=neo+oyaide+d++usb+type-c+class+b+cable,electronics,100&sr=1-3

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07KRPNK1...olid=3ELHM0NIPEJ2I&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B083QMZ9L...olid=3ELHM0NIPEJ2I&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it

Other thoughts is a adapter 
https://www.amazon.com/USB-Female-P...to+printer+male+adapter,electronics,59&sr=1-4


----------



## whitedragem

Ufanco said:


> Funny you mentioned the break in period it’s one of the reason I decided to buy new. Personally hearing the improvements over time is a enjoyable part of the journey for me. Right now just trying get a good set of cables, in time I’ll circle back and look at higher end cables. I will appreciate them more then than now if that makes sense.
> Not finding a lot of choice when come‘s to usb b to usb c cables. Here are a few i’m considering, if anyone else has suggestion on these or others I would appreciate any help or thoughts you can offer.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/NEO-Oyaide-Type-C-Class-Cable/dp/B07ZRDH5C4/ref=sr_1_3?crid=142H4Q346IYHG&keywords=NEO+Oyaide+d++USB+Type-C+Class+B+Cable&qid=1656209231&s=electronics&sprefix=neo+oyaide+d++usb+type-c+class+b+cable,electronics,100&sr=1-3
> ...


Just making sure I am up to speed; this is FROM an iPad air (4)?
So does this require the Camera Connection Kit dongle anyway? (at which point using an adaptor and one of your existing cables would probably be a way forward)
I’d probably recommend an Apple TV (they are $50 second hand in my local market for version 1-3) and an AppleTV 4K was 100$(aus) last week (second hand, sure)…
wouldn’t there be some method where you could use the iPad to request music to play via the Apple TV…
The version one TV (I bought four years ago for ‘a few quid’ (with remote) has fibre optic output and I have little doubt you could find a method (for not much more than the price of some cables you may be considering) that would allow a more usable setup (eg iPad on couch/on table next to listening position that remote controls your setup/allows preselecting music etc)

I generally do MY ABSOLUTE BEST to avoid USB as a digital transport.
by price point COAX outperforms TOSLINK which outperfroms USB (in aussie dollars, last time I checked the ratio was roughly $50 coax=$150 toslink=$400 USB cable).

Having heard the Denafrips, the jump to a $100 glass fibre optic cable (budget belkin brand part I believe), from a near equally priced ‘brandname’ part was noticeable.. (blacker background/ slightly more warmth in tonality of instruments) possibly some staging cues, but we didn’t do A/B fast switching and long testing.. it was better and there wasn’t much point wasting time on the tests.. (enjoy the music, yes?) (for those thinking cables don’t matter, the owners bias would have been against the findings, and the differences were ‘subtle’)

I used COAX input and a music player and did on the fly DSD conversion..
I’d almost encourage simply adding a FiiO BTA30 and using it to feed your stereo..
My quick test of the Denafrips when fed from the BTA30 blew my mind!

true story:
set the BTA30 up using power from the home ADSL modems USB jack (literally the worst possible power source), hooked up using a TOSLINK cable that cost $2 (can came with two adaptors), and fed from an android phone probably doing sample rate conversion 44khz to 48khz) using a non hi res codec… 
now anyone who has history with me knows that I ‘don’t do compressed music’; I grew up through the time period that MP3s evolved from low bitrate and had sound cards since the eighties.. I am sensitive to the differences of the FM synthesis chips as they evolved in the early nineties (freaking subtle stuff), and ’enjoyed’ the evolution of Minidisc compression etc..

I ran my given test track for soundstage depth and male vocal grittyness/inflection (T J Eckleberg - Two Inches of Darkness (album: Superhydrated)) and the performance BLEW ME AWAY.
The Denafrips playback of the digital feed it was given had more stage depth that any time previous AND the grittyness and inflection in the voice was ‘top notch’; so say the Denafrips is ‘an exceptional piece of kit’ is an _understatement_.

Naturally I was keen to feed COAX output using a nice cable from a DAP that did ‘on the fly’ DSD conversion; and the Denafrips surely was a step above anything I had hoped..
(and actually took the DSD via COAX like many DACs do not); I do not think the Denafrips a ‘budget DAC‘ that favours USB input.. 
I’d say - think outside the box and avoid a ‘frankenfurter‘ setup (a cable mass and awkward to use)…

you asked for $0.02 advice.. (given!!)
apols I didn’t help choose a cable, but I say ‘go the adaptor’ (especially if you are using a CCK already)
As someone who feeds an iFi Diablo using some horrific cable jangles with multiple adaptors, (and IS a cable fanatic), you will not suffer any disgrace no matter the option that works..
They should all work ‘well’.


----------



## Ufanco

Thanks again @whitedragem i’m sure I be referring back to this at a later date. I did talk with Alvin at Denafrips before purchasing and he said the iPad 4 air with usb c would work directly connected to the ares ii. So probably just pick up a adapter for now and down the road consider something better. 
Switching to something like Apple TV might work guess I’ll try the older roku ultra since I think it has a coax output. Humm now that I think about it I have a Sony TV that uses android OS that might also be a option it has coax and optical outputs.


----------



## roderickvd

whitedragem said:


> Just making sure I am up to speed; this is FROM an iPad air (4)?
> So does this require the Camera Connection Kit dongle anyway? (at which point using an adaptor and one of your existing cables would probably be a way forward)


I feed my Ares II from an iPhone through a Camera Connection Kit. I like to use a USB cable with good screening and ferrite beads for noise rejection, preferably on both sides.


whitedragem said:


> I generally do MY ABSOLUTE BEST to avoid USB as a digital transport.
> by price point COAX outperforms TOSLINK which outperfroms USB (in aussie dollars, last time I checked the ratio was roughly $50 coax=$150 toslink=$400 USB cable).


Not to start a cable discussion but just to present a different view, this is the USB cable that I'm using. Only downside I find is that it isn't gold plated:  https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32295185591.html

The Ares II has one of the best USB implementations on the market, which it shares with its bigger brothers, with the one nit that it isn't isolated (more on that later). The interface is asynchronous which means that the DAC processes the audio words in an ideal fashion based off its own clock, regardless of the quality of the input clock. On the other hand, S/PDIF requires the DAC to recover timing from the input signal. As good as that recovery can get, by definition it cannot be as good as asynchronous operation and will have elevated jitter, if only by a small amount on a good implementation. Subjectively one may prefer one or the other of course.

Now the one nit on the Ares II is that the USB interface isn't properly isolated, and source noise could find its way into the DAC. In this regard optical link would be superior even over coax, but again may cause higher jitter caused by optical conversion back and forth on top of the S/PDIF clock recovery. That's why I did my absolute best to use asynchronous USB as a digital transport, and stuck a TOPPING HS01 between the CCK and Ares II for isolation. Problem solved!


----------



## NehPets

Ufanco said:


> Funny you mentioned the break in period it’s one of the reason I decided to buy new. Personally hearing the improvements over time is a enjoyable part of the journey for me. Right now just trying get a good set of cables, in time I’ll circle back and look at higher end cables. I will appreciate them more then than now if that makes sense.
> Not finding a lot of choice when come‘s to usb b to usb c cables. Here are a few i’m considering, if anyone else has suggestion on these or others I would appreciate any help or thoughts you can offer.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/NEO-Oyaide-Type-C-Class-Cable/dp/B07ZRDH5C4/ref=sr_1_3?crid=142H4Q346IYHG&keywords=NEO+Oyaide+d++USB+Type-C+Class+B+Cable&qid=1656209231&s=electronics&sprefix=neo+oyaide+d++usb+type-c+class+b+cable,electronics,100&sr=1-3
> ...


Audioquest Forest works absolutely fine.


----------



## aroldan

roderickvd said:


> Now the one nit on the Ares II is that the USB interface isn't properly isolated, and source noise could find its way into the DAC. In this regard optical link would be superior even over coax, but again may cause higher jitter caused by optical conversion back and forth on top of the S/PDIF clock recovery. That's why I did my absolute best to use asynchronous USB as a digital transport, and stuck a TOPPING HS01 between the CCK and Ares II for isolation. Problem solved!


The TOPPING is a must for the Ares or is it required only when there's actually an audible distortion/noise problem?


----------



## whitedragem (Jun 26, 2022)

aroldan said:


> The TOPPING is a must for the Ares or is it required only when there's actually an audible distortion/noise problem?


We are arguing the semantics of subtle subtle things here…

Anyone insisting that USB is ‘the way’ based on science/logical thinking (I understand about USB Async, is in part why I have a Grace m903), and then goes to a lot of effort/spending to improve it… ‘sound logic’. (there are a lot of devices that can aid digital transmission - iFi audio have quite a few, I have a few of their USB regen parts, and have always wanted their SPDIF reclocker…)

Probably best for users to ‘check their own systems’; I can happily confirm that the Ares II isn’t a super budget DAC that exists because of how cheap implementing USB audio now is…(it also performs well on the traditional digital transmission methods)
The semantics are that most digital transmission methods have issues,.. and like any great political debate ‘throwing dirt on the ‘other parties’ weaknesses’ doesn’t actually make oneself _clean_.

The reason I avoid USB audio is simple testing on ‘nice’ kit… (budget kit just about always favours USB and is no doubt where most of the forum talk in favour of USB comes from)
Depending on any given piece of hardwares’ design, any given input method may sound better (test your own setup, PLEASE!)

Case in point; when using an iFi Diablo, the COAX / toslink input sounds way better than the USB input when I feed from an external device with exceptional clock sources.
USB DACs, when they have better clocks than the transport/source, will generally do better via USB.. (and if we look at the evolution in USB PLL locks etc.. there is reason it is always being spoken about)..

Solid old COAX, whilst might not seem logically ‘a great method’ to many users, generally pushes ‘pretty well’ (Your mileage may vary)..
I gave an audible ratio of price to performance a couple of posts up,.. being ~$50 COAX = ~$150 toslink = ~$400 USB .. but given most work on some silly fallacy that digital is transmitted digitally (over USB it is a wavelength, with peaks and trowels that have to align accurately in order to be interpreted as digital ‘on/off’ (one/zero), and is why USB cable quality VERY MUCH MATTERS (qualifier being: into setups with enough capability to resolve the differences).. those high/low points, “eyelets” of info can easily get ‘out of sync’ becoming misread, where zero becomes a one or vice versa… sure error correction can make up some of it, but absolute audio information is easily lost (bass note definition, transient timings, the microdetails that give a stage its depth etc)

I have ‘nice‘ USB cables, and regen units and am happy ‘doing the dance‘ of bouncing USB through multiple links (if need be), but I also run USB direct from battery isolated DAPs that internally have much consideration and design given to power isolation into particular circuits -=I _highly recommend a _FiiO M11+ as an exceptional transport,.. for the small coin outlay it near equals a Questyle QP1R, the best DAP I have ever used for transport duties, with the FiiO M11+ having the advantage of more output types (COAX and USB) as well as ability to do ‘on the fly DSD‘ conversion if called for=-..

USB using simple adaptors and generic cables sounds fine. (stop reading here, save getting ‘knickers in a twist’)
COAX flogs it in many situations, especially when we consider the sound quality achieved ‘by price point’.

Digital cables have rapidly reachable ‘diminishing returns’ and are not generally worth worrying about with budget kit.
The Denafrips Ares II is ‘good enough’ (when fed into systems costing VASTLY MORE THAN IT) to consider ‘playing with digital cables’.
The subtle differences can be HUGE to those who lived through the nineties and ‘super clock mods’ and ‘pure transports’ (/high end transports) etc..
The sorts of sound quality differences that can be had are quite noticable.

The best example I hold to is;
a friend using a generic USB cable wanted to try/‘see for themself’ if a USB cable might alter the sound they were experiencing (m2Tech Young DAC with matching ‘battery box’).. the system was a nice two channel system feeding from a decent transport (and had resolving speakers) and an owner with ‘keen ears’..
Hooking up three borrowed cables, believing USB cables wouldn’t really do anything (digital being, erm, ‘digital’)…
the three pricepoints they had borrowed were $50, $500 and $1500 USB cables…

The wife in the kitchen could pick the $1500 cable (easily).. and this wasn’t a ‘clever hans situation with ‘raised eyebrows‘ telegraphing when to put the foot down’ (a classic experiment involving a horse that could do ‘math’(the horse couldn’t do math if the owner didn’t know the answer..))
Whilst all three price points resolved different, and increasingly ’better’ sound… my friend settled on the $50 cable.. (it was a ‘no brainer’ upgrade) - the higher price point parts were not commensurate with the total system price, and, as an actuary, my friend was able to ‘do the math’.

I have found that Toslink cables need be a fair higher price margin (over COAX) to sound equal.. It is true that TOSLINK has two more conversion steps to push the optical feed.. (and receive it)
USB is a horrible cable method and bus to move audio on.
UAC 1 was atrocious, sure.. and UAC 2 allowed much better targeting/packeting of information /vs interruptions and in theory, given that the bus was not built for audio, stepped around some issues in a busy Universal Serial Bus environment… (ie a mouse moving didn’t have to get in the way of timing for audio)
But, celebrating USB audio is ‘going a little too far’ in praise of a solution to a problem that is incremental at best.
We can champion all the improvements to it as they happen (Asycn and Phase Locking Loops etc)..
but it would be like saying a skate board isn’t a good family vehicle for going to the beach or shopping…
And then saying, but this one has seats…
This one has seats and a motor….

It will never be I2S over a dedicated cable method designed for digital audio etc..
I am not sure what methods exist for ‘good digital audio’; last I read there were A LOT OF COMPROMISES in the market and we have all grown accustomed to using them.

Truth is; if it works for you.. use it. If it sounds better for you, USE IT (budget being reasonable).
If it is easy for you to implement, use it.
If it takes two hours to rotate a few options in place and check for yourself….. (don’t buy into the coolaid)

My experience with digital (having fed world class transports into high end DACs) is that I will reach for COAX first everytime. (to my scientific mind it is the worst option, but to my emotioally resolving brain using my ears as sensory input, it somehow ‘wins out’ everytime. -albeit not on ‘budget’ DACs (built around using USB, cause, ‘easy’/cheap))

The Denafrips does have a good USB implementation true.
I have a skateboard, with seats and a motor.. psst hey buddy ‘wanna go to the beach?’


----------



## Ufanco

So much great advice, spent the evening reading and watching you tube videos about the Ares ii. I even watched some videos of tweaking tips for the ares ii.
Figure I’ll post them here for all to enjoy, I’m only the messenger and just kinda curious to hear your thoughts on them. Some of the comments felt it helped but mighta just been the placebo affect.


----------



## whitedragem

Ufanco said:


> So much great advice, spent the evening reading and watching you tube videos about the Ares ii. I even watched some videos of tweaking tips for the ares ii.
> Figure I’ll post them here for all to enjoy, I’m only the messenger and just kinda curious to hear your thoughts on them. Some of the comments felt it helped but mighta just been the placebo affect.



Yep;; but that second video is an huge cost in time and money… (!) (vs the first video)

_just do it… _

certainly good tricks to employ.. 
Nice when people share knowledge..

A lot of the ‘more premium’ hifi parts I have come to love have sub chassis and ‘exotic materials’ (sub chassis).. and copper screws etc.
I think if you want to tunethe sound more towards the high end and remove some sibilance, you need use a silver washer.. 
jokes aside; good tips.
The feed back given in the first video could be, and most likely is, from break in (warm up) of the parts involved.. But it is true that these sorts of tricks make a difference.
IS why centrally mounted drive units in disc spinners (like the oppo behind Mike in the first video)..
Also why quite a few threads on head-fi talk about dampening tapes to put on top of caps inside their gear… 

Good finds.. cheers. and kudos for sharing.. good people (the both of you!)


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## sajunky (Jun 27, 2022)

whitedragem said:


> Anyone insisting that USB is ‘the way’ based on science/logical thinking (I understand about USB Async, is in part why I have a Grace m903), and then goes to a lot of effort/spending to improve it… ‘sound logic’. (there are a lot of devices that can aid digital transmission - iFi audio have quite a few, I have a few of their USB regen parts, and have always wanted their SPDIF reclocker…)


Well, USB is based on science, but when you are trying to improve it, you do break a science. A science is in asynchronous data delivery. Watch out to not break it!

You mention mouse movements generating noise, just on a side note. This is an example when USB port is not working in asynchronous mode. Even more, it is a sign of a serious problem in your PC. And additionally it is an indication that your player is using system mixer. All are critical faults.

Assuming your system is configured properly, a newer PC's have simplified USB architecture, having only one USB root hub. There are faster hubs 3.0+, but everything goes through a single pipe, one misbehaving port can interrupt data stream. Now you say "I have gaming PC", 1200W power supply, 16 core CPU. Well, it makes even worse, as power rails generate so much noise that such computer radiate so much EMI in your entire room that it is impossible to get rid of.

Much better for audio use is an old laptop, based on Core2 Duo with non-UEFI BIOS and integrated graphics. From the new PC's Intel mini PC, HP Probook Mini or similar HTTP constructions of other brands are much better for audio purpose. They have dedicated short power rails, not half meter long multiple lose cables. Or get a dedicated network streamer where power related noise is kept low and stop complaining on USB.

USB is not designed for audio purpose, true. A main problem is that it use DC signaling, so it is difficult to implement galvanic barrier. You mentioned reclockers. Jitterburgs, reclockers only cause problems and do not serve purpose. Do we have asynchronous data delivery, right? But audiophiles buy everything. 

The best way to implement galvanic barrier is to convert USB to I2S or S/PDIF. Problem is that Ares do not have I2S port. S/PDIF Coax gives some protection from ground loops, but SQ depends on the clock purity of a source clock (not a clock inside DAC). And this clock is exposed to the source noise, right? This is a problem, it is why we have a DDC. Asynchronous data delivery is broken in the place where conversion is made. If such conversion with galvanic isolation were made inside DAC, it would be possible to extend asynchronous data delivery directly to R2R ladder, using the high quality internal clock. Science is not bad, but breaks easily. And when it happen, we have multiple solutions, most of them do not work.


----------



## whitedragem

@sajunky ‘yes’ (glad you are raising awareness of what is involved with USB, and I would say you speak with rosey coloured glasses, and WANT USB to be ‘all that’..)

For me, happy to not debate the things I have learned along the way, I use a nice simple FiiO M11+ as a transport.
It easily bested a dedicated Cambridge CD transport, it has COAX *& *USB outputs (we can BOTH be happy!) and the clock chips are great/have power isolation/circuit board isolation (and a design intent for the total product to do these tasks well), shielding and short path layouts etc.. 
It improved DACs at the Ares II quality level (vs their internal clocks, even ‘nice ones‘ with femtosecond precision) and the COAX sounds vastly superior (into nice DACs).. even if using cheap adaptors on an ‘average’ COAX cable.

The time to implement one of these in a system? (!priceless)

They can stream/they can remote play/they run apple music (or any app); I like (onkyo) HF Player and doing ‘on the fly DSD‘ conversion (at high quality 5.6mhz (or 6mhz)) and the Ares II laps this up.. (over COAX!) 
(or you can use USB)
as I have already said; probably worth letting end users test their own systems to see (/‘hear’) what works best.
The COAX input is the best I could want.. from a cheaper chain (don’t need to use super nice USB cables to get ‘close to equal’ digital tranmission quality) (but that is leaving the elephant in the room out of the discussion- clearly you believe that ANY USB cable is ‘good enough’?!)

For a budget DAC, I am ‘all for USB’ (if it sounds better).. but for a nice DAC, I’d certainly encourage testing.. (the feedback I get via PM is ’thankyou’ (COAX was a massive upgrade))
I have no horse in this race.. I can do both and happily do the one that works best (for me)

In the limited testing I have done. the Ares II was exceptional via COAX input, and the TOSLINK was noticeably inferior, but then the TOSLINK cable wasn’t three times the cost of the COAX cable, in my experience, generally needed for roughly equal sound. The owner of the DAC didn’t want the USB connected. (take from that what you will)


----------



## roderickvd

aroldan said:


> The TOPPING is a must for the Ares or is it required only when there's actually an audible distortion/noise problem?


No, it is not a must. I understand it might have come across when I said “problem solved” but it is necessary only when you have a ground loop.

I had no ground loop, but bought one to satisfy my audiophile curiosity. Measurements show that there is a good 20 dB of noise attenuation and harmonics even in the absence of a ground loop. Though measurable, I admit that I cannot hear it — only logical since the Ares’ own noise has been measured well below the threshold of human hearing. 


whitedragem said:


> Anyone insisting that USB is ‘the way’ based on science/logical thinking (I understand about USB Async, is in part why I have a Grace m903), and then goes to a lot of effort/spending to improve it… ‘sound logic’.


Expectation bias is with everyone. 


whitedragem said:


> The semantics are that most digital transmission methods have issues,..


I would say the semantics are that all transmission methods have issues. Which is where I find the beauty in the audio hobby: it’s all about compromises. 


whitedragem said:


> Depending on any given piece of hardwares’ design, any given input method may sound better (test your own setup, PLEASE!)


This is sound advice (no pun intended). Implementations differ and so do personal preferences. As always, I just try to contribute by sharing engineering knowledge, then to each to pass his or her own judgement. 


whitedragem said:


> but given most work on some silly fallacy that digital is transmitted digitally (over USB it is a wavelength, with peaks and trowels that have to align accurately in order to be interpreted as digital ‘on/off’ (one/zero), and is why USB cable quality VERY MUCH MATTERS (qualifier being: into setups with enough capability to resolve the differences).. those high/low points, “eyelets” of info can easily get ‘out of sync’ becoming misread, where zero becomes a one or vice versa… sure error correction can make up some of it, but absolute audio information is easily lost (bass note definition, transient timings, the microdetails that give a stage its depth etc)


You are right on the voltage levels to make it ones or zeros, but otherwise USB works differently from what you describe. There is no sort of lossy error correction. USB packets contain a CRC (a “check” value calculated from the actual payload, to see if the packet was received correctly). The USB client sends the host a confirmation when a packet was received successfully with a matching CRC. In the absence of such an acknowledgement, the host retransmits the package. If the cable or connection is poor, and too many packets are dropped, you will hear skipping. Packets are either received with full integrity, or they are not, they are not mutated. 


whitedragem said:


> I have ‘nice‘ USB cables, and regen units and am happy ‘doing the dance‘ of bouncing USB through multiple links (if need be), but I also run USB direct from battery isolated DAPs that internally have much consideration and design given to power isolation into particular circuits


Indeed battery powered devices are by nature free from ground and mains noise so they are perfect in that regard. Of course like you say always test your system, because switching circuitry in them can and will still inject noise on connections (particularly ICs). But less so than noisy PCs and such, that’s for sure!


whitedragem said:


> It will never be I2S over a dedicated cable method designed for digital audio etc..


Although I don’t find much in the argument that USB audio cannot or will never be good because USB was not invented for it — we could make a list of the greatest inventions that were intended for a different purpose — I am totally with you that I2S with a great master clock really is the best you can get. Unfortunately all Denafrips DACs reclock I2S signals too and so are limited by the quality of their own clock. 


Ufanco said:


> Figure I’ll post them here for all to enjoy, I’m only the messenger and just kinda curious to hear your thoughts on them. Some of the comments felt it helped but mighta just been the placebo affect.



I’m usually more diplomatic but let me say that this is nonsense. I will go out on a limb and say that electronics can be microphonic in the presence of loudspeakers, which is the basis for all matters anti-vibration, but tuning a chassis is just nonsense. 


whitedragem said:


> @sajunky ‘yes’ (glad you are raising awareness of what is involved with USB, and I would say you speak with rosey coloured glasses, and WANT USB to be ‘all that’..)


I think that @sajunky provided a good factual description of how things work. And again everyone looks through the glasses of their own choosing.


whitedragem said:


> from a cheaper chain (don’t need to use super nice USB cables to get ‘close to equal’ digital tranmission quality) (but that is leaving the elephant in the room out of the discussion- clearly you believe that ANY USB cable is ‘good enough’?!)


Almost any: at least those with good shielding, preferably with ferrite beads, and good fitting of connectors. This guarantees high noise rejection.


whitedragem said:


> For a budget DAC, I am ‘all for USB’ (if it sounds better).. but for a nice DAC, I’d certainly encourage testing.. (the feedback I get via PM is ’thankyou’ (COAX was a massive upgrade))
> I have no horse in this race.. I can do both and happily do the one that works best (for me)


As do I. I hold no grudges against coax or Toslink, and encourage anyone to choose what they love the music with most. Just want to be transparent on what’s the deal with USB.


----------



## Ufanco

whitedragem said:


> Yep;; but that second video is an huge cost in time and money… (!) (vs the first video)
> 
> _just do it… _
> 
> ...


The tweak videos kinda made sense in that sometimes things can be over tighten and could put stress on the board. The whole tapping lid was a bit over the top. Figure it would fun to share. I liked your comment on using a silver washer it’s been a rough day and I got a good laugh outa that. 
Have 2 other options that I been considering, one is a DVD player that has coax output it also is wi fi and can install Tidal and other apps I think I can do screen mirror with the iPad. 
The other is a Xbox think between these I can figure out something temporary well I research a better streamer option.


----------



## szore (Jun 27, 2022)

roderickvd said:


> I feed my Ares II from an iPhone through a Camera Connection Kit. I like to use a USB cable with good screening and ferrite beads for noise rejection, preferably on both sides.
> 
> Not to start a cable discussion but just to present a different view, this is the USB cable that I'm using. Only downside I find is that it isn't gold plated:  https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32295185591.html
> 
> ...


Just plugged my Ares into a Matrix Element H usb...I'm not a tech guy, but it sounds much better... I also have the external ipowerX for the Element. The overall sound is richer and the cymbals against the blacker background is really transformed....the soundstage is more spacious as well...bass is richer as well...deeper...more robust


----------



## Ufanco

The Ares ii is in the house. Have it hooked up to the iPad Air 4, and started the break in period.I’m listening to Tidal and it’s sounding much better than the Shanling M6 pro 21. Looking forward to hearing it once it has more hours on it.

Using the ares ii with the Mest mk ii is amazing. The mest really scales well to this upgrade. The usb cable I have might not be the best choice in this setup. I bought it as a match to a iem cable. It‘s a 8 strand mix of 4 pure silver strands and 4 gold plated copper strands.

Was planning on using a dvd with coax out. Just realized I need a hdmi cable to set it up since need to see a tv screen for setting up screen mirror. It be a project for later I might just use it to play cd till then.

I also want to thank Vinshine Audio they where excellent to deal with. Took less than a week from time I order to receiving item.


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## szore

Ufanco said:


> The Ares ii is in the house. Have it hooked up to the iPad Air 4, and started the break in period.I’m listening to Tidal and it’s sounding much better than the Shanling M6 pro 21. Looking forward to hearing it once it has more hours on it.
> 
> Using the ares ii with the Mest mk ii is amazing. The mest really scales well to this upgrade. The usb cable I have might not be the best choice in this setup. I bought it as a match to a iem cable. It‘s a 8 strand mix of 4 pure silver strands and 4 gold plated copper strands.
> 
> ...


Welcome to the club!


----------



## Thaddy

Does the Ares II have jumpers or another method that allow you to change the output impedance?  I'm considering this DAC to replacement Benchmark DAC-3.


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## roderickvd

No. You would need a preamp to do anything with the impedance.


----------



## Ufanco

Going on a week with power on and noticing small details Improving in sound quililty Really liking the improvements. Realized I need to pick up a surge protector so been shoping around. Debating something like the trip brand. Like everything else hi fi there’s a ton of pros and con.
I wonder what you guys use for your system and hoping to get some suggestion. Here is a inexpensive one, that would work from amazon but welcome recommendations or thoughts.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/cart/view.html?ref_=nav_cart


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## Narcissus

Anyone using the Ares II with the following mentioned below, if yes please give your views it will be very helpful.

1.Uptone Audio USB ISOregen+Lps 1.2.
2.Rpi with Picore Player 

Tia


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## sajunky (Jul 7, 2022)

Narcissus said:


> Anyone using the Ares II with the following mentioned below, if yes please give your views it will be very helpful.
> 
> 1.Uptone Audio USB ISOregen+Lps 1.2.
> 2.Rpi with Picore Player
> ...


Don't use USB regenerators. It can only break asynchronous data delivery, Ares like many modern DACs denefit from. The ordinary USB 2.0 hub also regenerate USB signal and it is only needed when cable lenght exceed few meters.

You only need a ground loop redirector. Once again an ordinary self-powered USB 2.0 hub do it when combined with a quality power supply. Ifi Defender can be used as well, much cheaper than regenerators and do nor interfere with USB protocol. Just don't forget to order with power supply and lay down cables properly to limit ground loops surface area.

RPi produce less noise than PC, but you need RPi4 to get USB host with better UAC 2.0 support. An alternative approach to get rid of ground loops is to use sort of "poorman DDC" with low jitter clocks and external power supply like Douk Audio U2Pro. Use S/PDIF output to feed Ares. If you have Pontus, you can use I2S output of U2Pro, but then you can afford a real DDC.


----------



## Thaddy

roderickvd said:


> No. You would need a preamp to do anything with the impedance.


Thank you.  I've had my DAC3 B for a while and it's very difficult to find comparisons between these two DAC's.


----------



## Ufanco

roderickvd said:


> I feed my Ares II from an iPhone through a Camera Connection Kit. I like to use a USB cable with good screening and ferrite beads for noise rejection, preferably on both sides.
> 
> Not to start a cable discussion but just to present a different view, this is the USB cable that I'm using. Only downside I find is that it isn't gold plated:  https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32295185591.html
> 
> ...


Hi just wondering what the benefits are by using the camera adapter, I tried the my iPhone 12 mini and worked fine without the camera connection kit. Is it just to be able to power the phone while listening to music?
I decide to go with the usb chroma cables. They aren’t to expensive and have the ferrite beads on both end. The reviews seem good and seems to sounds a tad better than previous cable. 
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B083QMZ9L3?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details


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## roderickvd (Jul 8, 2022)

I have an iPhone with a lightning port so need the CCK to make USB out of it. Charging at the same time is a nice plus.

Edit: might this be the stupidest thing I said? I’m not at home now but will test what a normal lightning to USB cable will do.


----------



## iFi audio

sajunky said:


> Ifi Defender can be used as well, much cheaper than regenerators and do nor interfere with USB protocol.



Although iDefender with an eternal PSU is a nice starting point, something like nano iUSB3.0 would still make a more noticeable difference


----------



## TrumpOrMonkey

I currently have a Bifrost 2, and I love the soundstage depth and weight/thickness to the sound compared to my Modius, but I feel like its a bit too forward and dynamic for my tastes. I came from the Modius, where I like the more laid back, less forward, wider presentation with a clearer background but after hearing the Bifrost 2 I really do appreciate what it brings. I found the Bifrost 2 has a very similar tonality to the Schiit amplifiers, but in my case I found it a bit too much of a good thing for the synergy I was hoping at getting.

I'm thinking of getting the Ares II, what I'm hoping for is that its not quite as forward and dynamic as the Bifrost 2 (softer and more laid back sounding), but still maintains that depth and weight to the sound - while having a more accentuated and wider soundstage. A bonus of course if it can maintain some treble air and background clarity. Would I be looking in the right direction with this DAC?


----------



## szore

TrumpOrMonkey said:


> I currently have a Bifrost 2, and I love the soundstage depth and weight/thickness to the sound compared to my Modius, but I feel like its a bit too forward and dynamic for my tastes. I came from the Modius, where I like the more laid back, less forward, wider presentation with a clearer background but after hearing the Bifrost 2 I really do appreciate what it brings. I found the Bifrost 2 has a very similar tonality to the Schiit amplifiers, but in my case I found it a bit too much of a good thing for the synergy I was hoping at getting.
> 
> I'm thinking of getting the Ares II, what I'm hoping for is that its not quite as forward and dynamic as the Bifrost 2 (softer and more laid back sounding), but still maintains that depth and weight to the sound - while having a more accentuated and wider soundstage. A bonus of course if it can maintain some treble air and background clarity. Would I be looking in the right direction with this DAC?


I have not heard the bitfrost but I think the Ares will be what you are looking for.


----------



## Ufanco (Jul 11, 2022)

TrumpOrMonkey said:


> I currently have a Bifrost 2, and I love the soundstage depth and weight/thickness to the sound compared to my Modius, but I feel like its a bit too forward and dynamic for my tastes. I came from the Modius, where I like the more laid back, less forward, wider presentation with a clearer background but after hearing the Bifrost 2 I really do appreciate what it brings. I found the Bifrost 2 has a very similar tonality to the Schiit amplifiers, but in my case I found it a bit too much of a good thing for the synergy I was hoping at getting.
> 
> I'm thinking of getting the Ares II, what I'm hoping for is that its not quite as forward and dynamic as the Bifrost 2 (softer and more laid back sounding), but still maintains that depth and weight to the sound - while having a more accentuated and wider soundstage. A bonus of course if it can maintain some treble air and background clarity. Would I be looking in the right direction with this DAC?




I read a lot of different reviews and forum posting comparing these 2 before choosing a Ares ii. From what I understand there is a difference in sound signature btw Ares ii and Bitfrost 2. I think the ares ii might be more what you are seeking sound wise.
 Just not sure if it be a huge upgrade to buy a Ares ii if you already have the Bitfrost 2. You might do better off looking at upgrading amp or another part of the system depending on what the rest of system is.  
If you decide to go the Ares ii route the good thing is it’s a hot seller on the used market and you would recoup most of the cost if you decide it’s not for you.
There are a lot of reviews and comparisons btw these 2 units online. But in the end it really comes down to a personal choice on which one sounds better to you. Honestly the only real way to tell is by comparing them in your system. If I was in your position I would order the ares ii and compare them. Worse case you loss a little when you sell the one you least like. 

Personally I rather loss a few bucks and enjoy what sound the best to me. I love the sound of Ares ii so feel no need to test out the Bitfrost 2. In your case it sounds like the Bitfrost 2 isn’t supply the sound you are seeking.


----------



## TrumpOrMonkey (Jul 11, 2022)

Ufanco said:


> I read a lot of different reviews and forum posting comparing these 2 before choosing a Ares ii. From what I understand there is a difference in sound signature btw Ares ii and Bitfrost 2. I think the ares ii might be more what you are seeking sound wise.
> Just not sure if it be a huge upgrade to buy a Ares ii if you already have the Bitfrost 2. You might do better off looking at upgrading amp or another part of the system depending on what the rest of system is.
> If you decide to go the Ares ii route the good thing is it’s a hot seller on the used market and you would recoup most of the cost if you decide it’s not for you.
> There are a lot of reviews and comparisons btw these 2 units online. But in the end it really comes down to a personal choice on which one sounds better to you. Honestly the only real way to tell is by comparing them in your system. If I was in your position I would order the ares ii and compare them. Worse case you loss a little when you sell the one you least like.
> ...



I hear you on that when it comes to upgrading amp or other things first, I'm currently using a Jotunheim 2 and Lyr 3 for amp duties at the moment which I enjoy a lot. I had spent some time exploring and comparing quite a few different amps to find the ones I like now. I had considered looking into the 1k USD~ used price range of amps but since I'm from Australia there doesn't tend to be as many options as over in the US at this price, and usually the options I'm either not too interested in (iCan Pro, Burson Soloist 3xp) or are physically too large to fit in my current setup (Bryston BHA-1, Mjolnir 2 etc) and all of which (apart from the Soloist 3xp) are closer to 1.4k USD so quite a lot more expensive. There seems to be quite a gulf between the 400 to 700 AUD options to the 2k + options I found.

For headphones I'm running Arya V2, HE6SEv2, LCD2F, HD800S - as well as a Stax SRM-212 running SR202 and SR404 on the side. So I feel like I'm pretty dialed in when it comes to headphones too. There's very little I feel like trying out or upgrading to, maybe an LCD3F or consider getting a SR007 - but no strong urge to do it yet. So at the moment I'm just trying to dial in my setup and optimize it as much as I can.

At the moment I'm seeing the Modius as the weak link in my system that should be easiest to upgrade. I wouldn't say that I'm significantly dissatisfied by how it sounds, but its more of a curiosity to see if I can get more by stepping up to a higher end DAC.

DACs have been more difficult than anything else in this hobby to get reviews that seem to instill confidence in being able to conceptualise how they will sound in my experience. I've seen reviews for the Ares II which say the stage is collapsed compared to D/S DACs around the same price, and then I've heard reviews which have said the soundstage is much more expansive. I've seen reviews which have said its warmer than the Bifrost 2, then reviews which have said that its more neutral than the Bifrost 2. So I'm really not sure what to expect at this moment. This is not something I experienced with researching headphones or amps - at times my own findings would differ, but generally reviews felt more in agreement with each other.

All that I know is that the only way for certain is to try it, but ultimately I'm trying to not lose too much cash on it so waiting patiently for a used one to come up in my local headphone market, then we'll see!

Thanks for your advice, appreciate it


----------



## Ufanco (Jul 15, 2022)

TrumpOrMonkey said:


> I hear you on that when it comes to upgrading amp or other things first, I'm currently using a Jotunheim 2 and Lyr 3 for amp duties at the moment which I enjoy a lot. I had spent some time exploring and comparing quite a few different amps to find the ones I like now. I had considered looking into the 1k USD~ used price range of amps but since I'm from Australia there doesn't tend to be as many options as over in the US at this price, and usually the options I'm either not too interested in (iCan Pro, Burson Soloist 3xp) or are physically too large to fit in my current setup (Bryston BHA-1, Mjolnir 2 etc) and all of which (apart from the Soloist 3xp) are closer to 1.4k USD so quite a lot more expensive. There seems to be quite a gulf between the 400 to 700 AUD options to the 2k + options I found.
> 
> For headphones I'm running Arya V2, HE6SEv2, LCD2F, HD800S - as well as a Stax SRM-212 running SR202 and SR404 on the side. So I feel like I'm pretty dialed in when it comes to headphones too. There's very little I feel like trying out or upgrading to, maybe an LCD3F or consider getting a SR007 - but no strong urge to do it yet. So at the moment I'm just trying to dial in my setup and optimize it as much as I can.
> 
> ...



 No problem the amps you have are great guess missed seeing that in your signature. I hear what your saying on reviews of these two dac’s. In my case I decided to go with the ares ii for a couple of reasons.

First was all the r2r reviews I read to seemed to compare it to the ares ii. I also tend to like a more warm nature sound and seemed the ares ii fits this bill better. There also seemed to be more service issue mentioned with the Bitfrost 2.  

When contacted both companies with question I got very different vibes with the responses I received back. If you can’t be bothered to answer question before sales, it doesn’t make me comfortable on how you you handle services after the sale. Alvin at VH Audio was super helpful and friendly in response. This difference wasn’t the hugest part of my decision on purchase, but it did play a roll on it.

Just passed the burn in stage and have no buyers remorse at all. The sound I’m hearing has exceeded my expectations and I highly recommend this Dac. If you buy used try find a original buy who can transfer warranty to you.


----------



## BlueSundays

For those of you who own this DAC, Ive read some reviews that the USB input useage is somewhat sub-par. Just wondering if anyone here had the same trouble or degration of sound quality using the USB input.


----------



## godmax

BlueSundays said:


> For those of you who own this DAC, Ive read some reviews that the USB input useage is somewhat sub-par. Just wondering if anyone here had the same trouble or degration of sound quality using the USB input.


USB on the Ares II is perfectly fine - even above average in stability and reliability, but its not galvanic isolated so you might get subject of ground loop noise (same as coax) like any other unisolated DAC. The digital data from coax, optical and USB will all be routed to the same FIFO buffer before getting processed - so if there is no bit-flip happening before that - they are all the same no matter what input you will use.
There was a minor glitch on the Ares II internal buffer handling that created randomly noise on rare conditions, but that has been fixed now with the latest firmware.


----------



## sajunky

BlueSundays said:


> For those of you who own this DAC, Ive read some reviews that the USB input useage is somewhat sub-par. Just wondering if anyone here had the same trouble or degration of sound quality using the USB input.


USB can sound good or very bad, a reason is pointed out by @godmax. Coax is less sensitive to the specific configuration assuming there are transformer coupled as it should. Transformer coupling cannot be used on USB lines, so isolation of the USB port is a tricky job. Ares has no USB isolation, it is why i.e. for some users Bifrost 2 sounds better, but it is only because BF2 has USB isolator. It will perform more consistent in various systems. For Ares you should try ground loop redirectors like ifi Defender, converters to S/PDIF, then at a higher price level network streamers that are designed to generate less noise than ordinary PC/laptop.


----------



## szore (Jul 17, 2022)

BlueSundays said:


> For those of you who own this DAC, Ive read some reviews that the USB input useage is somewhat sub-par. Just wondering if anyone here had the same trouble or degration of sound quality using the USB input.


I have a Black Dragon USB out of the Ares and an Element H USB card with power supply, and I'm very happy with the sound...


----------



## dougms3

BlueSundays said:


> For those of you who own this DAC, Ive read some reviews that the USB input useage is somewhat sub-par. Just wondering if anyone here had the same trouble or degration of sound quality using the USB input.


I just recently got the Audio-gd DI-20HE DDC and switched to spdif.  

Chain is PC > linear ps - Jcat femto > usb > DI20he > spdif > ares ii 

What is surprising is that the spdif is limited to 24/192 but sounds better than the DSD512 upsampling via usb to ares ii.  

So it could be possible that the usb interface on the ares ii is not all that great but I'm also using an audioquest carbon spdif cable so theres that, I would need an aq carbon usb to sure about the usb interface lol.


----------



## BlueSundays

Awesome replies. Thanks a bunch everyone. Im tempted to go with the Pontus or Gumby, but at that point my DAC would be more $$$ than anything else in my chain. It be a buy once, cry once solution. Probably not messed with at LEAST for 5 years or most likely even longer.


----------



## whitedragem

TrumpOrMonkey said:


> I hear you on that when it comes to upgrading amp or other things first, I'm currently using a Jotunheim 2 and Lyr 3 for amp duties at the moment which I enjoy a lot. I had spent some time exploring and comparing quite a few different amps to find the ones I like now. I had considered looking into the 1k USD~ used price range of amps but since I'm from Australia there doesn't tend to be as many options as over in the US at this price, and usually the options I'm either not too interested in (iCan Pro, Burson Soloist 3xp) or are physically too large to fit in my current setup (Bryston BHA-1, Mjolnir 2 etc) and all of which (apart from the Soloist 3xp) are closer to 1.4k USD so quite a lot more expensive. There seems to be quite a gulf between the 400 to 700 AUD options to the 2k + options I found.
> 
> For headphones I'm running Arya V2, HE6SEv2, LCD2F, HD800S - as well as a Stax SRM-212 running SR202 and SR404 on the side. So I feel like I'm pretty dialed in when it comes to headphones too. There's very little I feel like trying out or upgrading to, maybe an LCD3F or consider getting a SR007 - but no strong urge to do it yet. So at the moment I'm just trying to dial in my setup and optimize it as much as I can.
> 
> ...


but ‘more so’ following on from the earlier post…..


TrumpOrMonkey said:


> I currently have a Bifrost 2, and I love the soundstage depth and weight/thickness to the sound compared to my Modius, but I feel like its a bit too forward and dynamic for my tastes. I came from the Modius, where I like the more laid back, less forward, wider presentation with a clearer background but after hearing the Bifrost 2 I really do appreciate what it brings. I found the Bifrost 2 has a very similar tonality to the Schiit amplifiers, but in my case I found it a bit too much of a good thing for the synergy I was hoping at getting.
> 
> I'm thinking of getting the Ares II, what I'm hoping for is that its not quite as forward and dynamic as the Bifrost 2 (softer and more laid back sounding), but still maintains that depth and weight to the sound - while having a more accentuated and wider soundstage. A bonus of course if it can maintain some treble air and background clarity. Would I be looking in the right direction with this DAC?


I believe the Ares II is the best gateway (certainly by price point) for the factors you are seeking.
My experience was all the things you are seeking were the areas it had exceptional performance (vs a range of well curated DACs)..
Its only weakness (vs higher priced units) was a few genres didn’t hold up as well vs super specc’d Delta Sigma (and ‘multibit’) DACs, such as electronica, due to D/S and budget DACs generally nailing bass responce (overemphasising this aspect perhaps).. 

The few serious review on the Ares II (that knew what they were talking about and didn’t have glaring issues with aspects of the chain that led to their ‘unusual‘ findings), place it as most of what the ‘above’ models offer, but the big improvements, musically speaking was in the bass response (more suitable for specific genres /‘listeners’).

If your music catalogue is all electronica and the absolute most bass response and drive is called for, then, perhaps, that would be the only point against it when comparing vs other models you may be considering.
That being said, the system I auditioned in had zero care towards power supply/noise isolation and ran ‘no sub’, and using some B&W studio monitors well placed in the room, the ‘low bass note’ reach and drive was a MASSIVE STEP UP vs every other DAC auditioned, and I couldn’t imagine wanting more.
The quality of the bass was fantastic, and very natural, with plenty of resolve and push… with the proper texture that bass frequencies should have (that WILL NOT BE FOUND in the units that ‘out bass resolve’ at this price point, using ‘budget’ designs).

Given what you listed were you ‘wants’ this is the checklist item that should be at the top of your shortlist I’d warrant.
I cannot believe these DACs haven’t suffered a price increase or ‘redesign’ to _save cost_ given the last couple of years of retail hardship.

Bargains….


----------



## George Hincapie

I was just about to pull the trigger on this, then realised it has no AES in. How annoying! The Pontus has it, but so much more expensive. Oh well, back to the drawing board...


----------



## George Hincapie

whitedragem said:


> I cannot believe these DACs haven’t suffered a price increase or ‘redesign’ to _save cost_ given the last couple of years of retail hardship.
> 
> Bargains….



Just means the margin in them, like most things in this hobby, is insane.


----------



## sajunky (Jul 27, 2022)

George Hincapie said:


> I was just about to pull the trigger on this, then realised it has no AES in. How annoying! The Pontus has it, but so much more expensive. Oh well, back to the drawing board...


Audio GD R-1 has, also I2S and its outputs can be driven simultaneously, $900.

Oh, forgotten... It is a true balaned design, two ladder decoders per channel, not a single one.


----------



## roderickvd (Jul 28, 2022)

Having double the arrays is a good thing. So is I2S (hopefully without reclocking so better external clocks on DDCs are actually meaningful?)

Still, I can’t get excited from these measurements: https://alpha-audio.net/review/multitest-the-best-dac-for-1000-euros/2. Distortion is mainly on uneven harmonics, dynamic range is around 14 bit and the roll-off on the NOS doesn’t look right. There is aliasing but  with some very steep dips and not how NOS should roll off both in theory and practice.

You may not care if this is a great sounding DAC but without having heard it this is what raises a bit of an eyebrow with me.


----------



## dougms3

roderickvd said:


> Having double the arrays is a good thing. So is I2S (hopefully without te clocking so better external clocks on DDCs are actually meaningful?)
> 
> Still, I can’t get excited from these measurements: https://alpha-audio.net/review/multitest-the-best-dac-for-1000-euros/2. Distortion is mainly on uneven harmonics, dynamic range is around 24 bit and the roll-off on the NOS doesn’t look right. There is aliasing but  with some very steep dips and not how NOS should roll off both in theory and practice.
> 
> You may not care if this is a great sounding DAC but without having heard it this is what raises a bit of an eyebrow with me.


It seems like its becoming a trend.  People think they can predict if something is good based on biased measurements instead of listening.

Everyone wants to be an expert and all it takes is a measurement rig apparently.


----------



## roderickvd

I remember reading something by Ti Kan of AMB fame. Not sure if it’s his quote but it’s where I got I first. Paraphrasing: if it measures poorly then it is likely to sound bad, if it measures well then that is not yet a guarantee that it will sound great.

I like that.


----------



## sajunky (Jul 28, 2022)

roderickvd said:


> Having double the arrays is a good thing. So is I2S (hopefully without reclocking so better external clocks on DDCs are actually meaningful?)
> 
> Still, I can’t get excited from these measurements: https://alpha-audio.net/review/multitest-the-best-dac-for-1000-euros/2. Distortion is mainly on uneven harmonics, dynamic range is around 14 bit and the roll-off on the NOS doesn’t look right. There is aliasing but  with some very steep dips and not how NOS should roll off both in theory and practice.
> 
> You may not care if this is a great sounding DAC but without having heard it this is what raises a bit of an eyebrow with me.


I can't comment on these measurements, having trouble reading parameters from these screenshots and a missing description. I think I saw the same article 4 years ago. Audio GD definitely has NOS roll-off conforming to the theoretical sample-hold figure, I have seen it on other tests. In practice you can't hear this drop, as high-frequency images (do not mistake images with aliasing) stimulate our ear receptors. It is my own explanation. My ears are old, with my 12kHz limit I don't notice any drop on my R2R-11, but I should.

Other than that, comparing measurements of Delta-Sigma DAC with R2R type is pointless, as spectrum analysers take averaged results, our ears pickup things that happen during transients. The author says about blackness present in other DACs, I agree with. This is effect of having a dominant tone exposed on the expense of everything what happen in the background, but he mention it in connection to the 'precision' which I think he use a wrong term. In fact a timing precision is much better in R2R DAC. Our ears are more sensitive to the timing than amplitude errors. It translate to the coherent harmonics across all frequencies, together with unsuppressed timbre and texture it makes a music. Audio GD website compares R2R sound to the oil painting, I think there is no better comparison.

In other words, comparing R2R sound to the DS type is like comparing apples to oranges. There are more subtle differences when comparing Denafrips sound to Audio GD. Both sound very good, but I think the author would prefer a laid-back character of Denafrips sound. Especially in NOS mode, as Denafrips use a different decoding method, not true NOS. In OS mode Audio GD sound is more similar, but still R-1 is more dynamic and putting into a chair.

You must hear R2R DAC first, listen to the music at least for two weeks, then connect DS type and you will immediately notice you are missing a lot.

Regarding I2S, you are right, it doesn't require reclocking, but the best results can be achieved when both DDC and DAC are referenced from the same external clock. This is a TOTL solution. R-1 do not have external clock port, don't look for such port in Pontus and Venus. The cheapest model with external clock support is R-8Mk2.


----------



## roderickvd

No doubts there I am a R2R guy myself. I compare with measurements from the Ares II, not analytical sounding DS ones. Even then these graphs don’t give the full picture, I agree. 

The NOS roll off as always pictures only starts beyond 10 kHz but in practice colors two octaves down and that is what you and I probably hear and love. Still, that NOS graph on the linked site is definitely off. May be a wrong measurement or visualization too, I don’t know.


----------



## sajunky

@roderickvd. Which figure you are refering to? I will look at later on PC, currently on mobile.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

If you want better connectivity and true NOS + OS modes, spend the extra money for the R8 Mk2. It's shockingly good.


----------



## roderickvd

This one:


----------



## gimmeheadroom

The vertical scale seems uselessly gigantic in the audible range.


----------



## sajunky (Jul 28, 2022)

roderickvd said:


> This one:


Oh, it looks completely different to any other tests. It is because a frequency scale (X-axis) is linear, not logarytmic as usual. On this graph it would be also difficult to get exact numbers, as a vertical scale is to large as @gimmeheadroom said.


----------



## George Hincapie

dougms3 said:


> It seems like its becoming a trend.  People think they can predict if something is good based on biased measurements instead of listening.
> 
> Everyone wants to be an expert and all it takes is a measurement rig apparently.



How are measurements biased? They are what they are.


----------



## roderickvd

sajunky said:


> Oh, it looks completely different to any other tests. It is because a frequency scale (X-axis) is linear, not logarytmic as usual.


Good catch.


----------



## sajunky

George Hincapie said:


> How are measurements biased? They are what they are.


These are static tests, averaged and subject to DSP filtering. They are insensitive to dynamic changes. A different type of ears I would say in a human language.


----------



## szore

sajunky said:


> USB can sound good or very bad, a reason is pointed out by @godmax. Coax is less sensitive to the specific configuration assuming there are transformer coupled as it should. Transformer coupling cannot be used on USB lines, so isolation of the USB port is a tricky job. Ares has no USB isolation, it is why i.e. for some users Bifrost 2 sounds better, but it is only because BF2 has USB isolator. It will perform more consistent in various systems. For Ares you should try ground loop redirectors like ifi Defender, converters to S/PDIF, then at a higher price level network streamers that are designed to generate less noise than ordinary PC/laptop.


Try the Matrix H usb card.

https://www.moon-audio.com/matrix-audio-element-h.html


----------



## dougms3

George Hincapie said:


> How are measurements biased? They are what they are.


Even though they are all dacs, they don't measure the same.  Its not a one way to measure all devices.

Might as well do something stupid like judge the sound quality by looking at the measurements and never listen it.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

dougms3 said:


> Might as well do something stupid like judge the sound quality by looking at the measurements and never listen it.



This is exactly what they do. I remember in the 1970s when they did that with cars it was called "Armchair racing."

So, time moves on, technology improves, and nothing has changed


----------



## George Hincapie

dougms3 said:


> Even though they are all dacs, they don't measure the same.  Its not a one way to measure all devices.
> 
> Might as well do something stupid like judge the sound quality by looking at the measurements and never listen it.



ASR do it right IMHO. The same approach is applied to everything. People just get tetchy because they realise they have been had. Are you one of those people? Don't be sore if you are.

Not all expensive equipment measures poorly. The Mola Mola DAC is one of the best measuring converters around and is stupidly expensive. Are Ares II measured well also.

So while you can argue that you'd prefer to see X, Y or Z measurement used, as long as the same measurements are being taken consistently of every applicable device that's tested then you have an accurate frame for comparison.

Or if you can't deal with that then just ignore ASR altogether. Personally I like that they are around.


----------



## sajunky (Jul 28, 2022)

George Hincapie said:


> ASR do it right IMHO. The same approach is applied to everything.


ASR don't. There is a definitive bias towards sponsored brands like Topping who invest heavy in marketing. These brands send selected units for testing, but people get something inferior to a tested one. An example is D30 test equipped with low jitter SiTime oscilators and premium capacitors. My unit was the same that people reported of having inferior components comparing to the photos of a tested unit. Despite of number of calls to re-test off the shelf unit, it never was done, but D30 was still on the top of the best measuring list. My D30 has probably also fake opamps, as there is no other reason it would sound worse than a Realtek codec chip inside laptop.

It goes even worse. For those brands that do not send free samples or other benefits, he collect a broken equipment from all over US and test it even the unit is partially operational. An example is R2R-11 which I am very hapy from. It triggered reset every 20 second. Despite an evident fault seen on the beginning, a dick-geisha-head continued with testing. There are many other examples of a mischievous behaviour.

And finally the guy is an amateur. He doesn't understand ground loops problem. In result, many his tests are screwed up. An example is a TotalDAC Six test. Read comments to this test, you will see that he is completely ignorant on this issue. A tip, search for sajunky.


----------



## dougms3

Alot of his "faithful" cult of measurements are congregated in the Port Authority / anus of this forum.  Just like scientology and ASR, it has nothing to do with science.


----------



## szore

My AresII just hit the "30 day plugged in" mark and it's sounding miggghhty sweet....


----------



## simon740

I miss my Ares II. I shouldn't sell it.


----------



## dougms3

simon740 said:


> I miss my Ares II. I shouldn't sell it.


What did you replace it with?


----------



## Ufanco

George Hincapie said:


> ASR do it right IMHO. The same approach is applied to everything. People just get tetchy because they realise they have been had. Are you one of those people? Don't be sore if you are.
> 
> Not all expensive equipment measures poorly. The Mola Mola DAC is one of the best measuring converters around and is stupidly expensive. Are Ares II measured well also.
> 
> ...



I fall into the camp that audio measuring does not give a complete picture. Measuring a sound wave is not the same as the way we hear music as an event. If you read up on human hearing and how it works you find it’s complex and scientific equipment isn’t advanced enough to give a complete understanding of the hearing process.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5819010/


----------



## Ufanco

With the ares ii would adding the iris ddc improve the sound quality?


----------



## dougms3

Ufanco said:


> With the ares ii would adding the iris ddc improve the sound quality?


Maybe @msing539 can provide some insight, I think he has iris.


----------



## roderickvd

If you use coax or optical as input, then yes. If USB then still yes but only for the galvanic isolation and much cheaper to get just an isolator like the TOPPING HS-01. The clocks won’t do a thing in that case.


----------



## sajunky (Aug 1, 2022)

You need DDC that gives isolation on USB port but no reclocking for the best results. It means that DDC clock becomes a master clock for USB transfers and there is no reclocking afterwards. Not every DDC is designed such way. On the other side, technically it is not the best place for USB isolator on the external device. If done properly, the cost approaches a DDC. It is easier to place isolator on the external converter to I2S, but Ares do not have I2S port.


----------



## Ufanco

So sounds like it be at least a small sound improvement. Just wondering what next would be the best sound improvement for my system listed in signature.


----------



## szore

simon740 said:


> I miss my Ares II. I shouldn't sell it.


I sold it then bought it again...


----------



## szore

dougms3 said:


> Alot of his "faithful" cult of measurements are congregated in the Port Authority / anus of this forum.  Just like scientology and ASR, it has nothing to do with science.


Ouch. But I agree.

lol, Port Authority...


----------



## 314Rye

roderickvd said:


> If you use coax or optical as input, then yes. If USB then still yes but only for the galvanic isolation and much cheaper to get just an isolator like the TOPPING HS-01.


Acquired Topping HS-01 isolator last week, after that no problems related to cracking of sound. So I can recommend this relatively cheap device to people suffering similar problems with their Aress II.


----------



## alvin1118

Good news for Windows PC users! 

*DENAFRIPS Thesycon v5.45.0 USB Driver *is available now.

https://www.vinshineaudio.com/post/thesycon-v5-45-0-usb-driver-windows


----------



## George Hincapie

Have any of you added the Iris to your Ares? What difference did it make? Do you feel the improvement justified the expense?


----------



## Chodi

George Hincapie said:


> Have any of you added the Iris to your Ares? What difference did it make? Do you feel the improvement justified the expense?


I added the latest driver on my Windows 11 system and found no difference.


----------



## sajunky

Chodi said:


> I added the latest driver on my Windows 11 system and found no difference.


Driver makes a difference when someone experience problems. It just facilitate data transfer: no problems, it is bit perfect. So a new driver is also bit-perfect, no difference.


----------



## George Hincapie (Sep 22, 2022)

My new Iris and Ares II arrived today. Everything's connected and working, and I'm listening to some music on my Arya.

I have to say that initial impressions are not positive. Music just sounds flat, not visceral or real. There's no weight to the image.

I've read so many reviews about this DAC and was expecting it to blow me away, but it isn't.

Disappointing.

Is there a preferred filter for this? Mine is using whatever the stock one is.


----------



## whitedragem

George Hincapie said:


> My new Iris and Ares II arrived today. Everything's connected and working, and I'm listening to some music on my Arya.
> 
> I have to say that initial impressions are not positive. Music just sounds flat, not visceral or real. There's no weight to the image.
> 
> ...


re: filter, NOS vs '1x' mode seems to be the considerations, yes? some reviewers prefer one or the other (or 'based on genre'/disk),.. I have seen in action that 'various medias' preferred one or the other,.. (please play)
Regarding new/'out of box' sound quality- noooooooooooo

Leave something engaging the DAC (eg a set top box feeding an audio signal) for a week or two.

WORLD OF DIFFERENCE.

Chip based DACs don't have much to have to break in..
An Ares II has a lot of capacitors and 'parts' that need to 'warm up' a little (settling).
Many manufacturers will inform a user, via the users manual, that after a week or two a part will sound better (be it an amp or a speaker etc...) 
A friend with a great critical ear/brain and a studio setup said the Denefrips just kept getting better (even at the one month mark).
I was witness to the first four hours of playback and the soundstage just kept improving.. (by the two and a half hour mark it was noticably better than 'out of box'...)

Once done, its' done.
You don't have to leave it on all the time, nor run it for a week if it was left 'off' for three months.
That being said, thirty minutes warm up if it was disconnected from power might sweeten the breathing space and air characteristics a bit.. etc etc etc.

(TL : DR - Denefrips Ares II has a lot of parts that need to be broken in and settle together; give it a week or two being left on and decoding something...)


----------



## Chodi

George Hincapie said:


> My new Iris and Ares II arrived today. Everything's connected and working, and I'm listening to some music on my Arya.
> 
> I have to say that initial impressions are not positive. Music just sounds flat, not visceral or real. There's no weight to the image.
> 
> ...


I have the Ares II but not the Iris. My suggestion would be to hook up the Ares II to your computer without the Iris and start there. Get used to the settings and the sound before you add the Iris. I know nothing about the sound of the Iris but I do know that your complaint about the Ares II is not my experience. I would also suggest you download a free tail of HQPlayer and give that a try with the Ares II as I find that it is essential for my listening (make sure the Ares II is in NOS mode for that test). If you still are not happy then you may move onto something more to your liking.


----------



## George Hincapie

whitedragem said:


> re: filter, NOS vs '1x' mode seems to be the considerations, yes? some reviewers prefer one or the other (or 'based on genre'/disk),.. I have seen in action that 'various medias' preferred one or the other,.. (please play)
> Regarding new/'out of box' sound quality- noooooooooooo
> 
> Leave something engaging the DAC (eg a set top box feeding an audio signal) for a week or two.
> ...


I appreciate the effort that went into that, thanks.

I can leave Roon running. Do I need my HPA switched on as well, or just the stream to the DAC is sufficient?


----------



## szore

George Hincapie said:


> My new Iris and Ares II arrived today. Everything's connected and working, and I'm listening to some music on my Arya.
> 
> I have to say that initial impressions are not positive. Music just sounds flat, not visceral or real. There's no weight to the image.
> 
> ...


It needs to be plugged I think 12 days before critical listening. Does not fully settle until 1 month plugged in. Welcome to audiophile!


----------



## Coztomba

My Ares II never gets turned off.


----------



## sajunky

George Hincapie said:


> I can leave Roon running. Do I need my HPA switched on as well, or just the stream to the DAC is sufficient?


Yes, the later. But, Iris also need burning, so leave it on too. What is your hpa? .


----------



## henriks




----------



## George Hincapie

sajunky said:


> Yes, the later. But, Iris also need burning, so leave it on too. What is your hpa? .


THX AAA 789 with LTA MZ3 ordered abd being built as we speak.


----------



## sajunky (Sep 23, 2022)

George Hincapie said:


> THX AAA 789 with LTA MZ3 ordered abd being built as we speak.


Tube amp will be a great addition to Denafrips DAC, it will reveal musicality in R2R sound. For now THX is not able to do it, good choice, looking forward for comparison.


----------



## whitedragem

Mid-Fi guy took viewers (chewyoube) through a comparison of various headphone amps paired with various DAC (topologies).
His verdict was that the clinical detail retrival focused 'thx' amp was a great pairing with the Denefrips (and that Valve took the R2R 'too far' down the 'relaxed' pathway).


----------



## szore

I think my Jot2 is a good balance


----------



## George Hincapie (Sep 23, 2022)

I've been watching the Denafrips YT videos and have changed from OS Fast to OS Slow. I can't believe I am listening to the same DAC; the improvement in SQ is significant. Most of what was missing initially is now there. 

Now, more listening to do...


----------



## szore

George Hincapie said:


> I've been watching the Denafrips YT videos and have changed from OS Fast to OS Slow. I can't believe I am listening to the same DAC; the improvement in SQ is incredible. Eveything that was missing initially is now there. Amazing! 😊
> 
> Now, more listening to do...


I hear no difference between any of those settings but I keep it on NOS fast


----------



## George Hincapie

szore said:


> I hear no difference between any of those settings but I keep it on NOS fast


The filters are only active in OS mode.


----------



## Lolito2

Coztomba said:


> My Ares II never gets turned off.


same here, although with the mac, it needs a reset from time to time.


----------



## szore

George Hincapie said:


> The filters are only active in OS mode.


Yeah its just random! I just changed it again and I hear no difference, but I'm burning in power cables and some fuses so my system probably doesnt have the resolution yet.


----------



## George Hincapie

szore said:


> Yeah its just random! I just changed it again and I hear no difference, but I'm burning in power cables and some fuses so my system probably doesnt have the resolution yet.


The change is significant for me. Sharp sounds thin, undefined etc.

Slow is much better. It doesn't sound as good as my Metrum Adagio, but it's not bad. Will leave it running in another 8 days then reassess.


----------



## whitedragem (Sep 23, 2022)

George Hincapie said:


> The change is significant for me. Sharp sounds thin, undefined etc.
> 
> Slow is much better. It doesn't sound as good as my Metrum Adagio, but it's not bad. Will leave it running in another 8 days then reassess.


I've seen a couple of reviewers now, reflect that with the Ares II; their 'typical filter preference' (as used on other DACs), being Slow, seem to prefer the Fast filter(s) on the Ares II..

Again it seem to be with descriptions along the lines that 'too much of a good thing' (-that the Denefrips already doesn't do 'sharp digital', and the 'Slow' goes too far..

This of course can be media dependant, and like I find with DAC testing fast A/B switching: sometimes appears to 'make no difference', and then in a different passage on any given track/disc, something really obvious may stand out...

No doubt it does help to identify that the filters are *NOT* operational in NOS mode (thankyou @George Hincapie )


----------



## Lolito2

George Hincapie said:


> The change is significant for me. Sharp sounds thin, undefined etc.
> 
> Slow is much better. It doesn't sound as good as my Metrum Adagio, but it's not bad. Will leave it running in another 8 days then reassess.


How is your life after cycling? still visit france with the family often?


----------



## George Hincapie

Lolito2 said:


> How is your life after cycling? still visit france with the family often?


No relation, sorry.


----------



## Ufanco

sajunky said:


> Tube amp will be a great addition to Denafrips DAC, it will reveal musicality in R2R sound. For now THX is not able to do it, good choice, looking forward for comparison.


I have the ares ii running into a Xduoo ta20 tube Amp and love how it sounds. Find it is a great match with the Ares ii that doesn’t cost an arm and leg. The Xduoo can run 12bh7 tubes and they add to the sound quality of the amp.


----------



## MacMan31

Halam said:


> I pair Ares II with Felix Audio Echo OTL tube headphone amp and ZMF Atticus and sound is fantastic, full and engaging, but this is what I want from my system, just enjoy music and forget about audiphilia



That stack looks awesome! I've long considered an Ares II to replace my Bifrost 2. But I've heard people say they sound very similar. I have the Echo Mk2 myself with the ZMF Aeolus. I'm looking at and Atticus right now for $1,200 used (Canadian). What tubes/risers are you using in that photo and what is the headphone cable?


----------



## George Hincapie

I now have 10 days of burn in on my Ares II and Iris and it just isn't doing it for me. Back to the drawing board 😔


----------



## blackdragon87

Looks like a Forza cable 

 BTW, I am looking for a ares 2 and can trade a eufonika hf 5 milflex for one


----------



## Thetaburn (Oct 2, 2022)

Going to bring up an old topic but new to me as I stumbled onto it on Youtube.



Tried it and I am not sure if it is placebo, seems the soundstage did increase in width a bit......strange that loosening the back screws can have any effect on sound.
Will need to spend some time listening to my favorite tracks to confirm.


----------



## kumar402

MacMan31 said:


> That stack looks awesome! I've long considered an Ares II to replace my Bifrost 2. But I've heard people say they sound very similar. I have the Echo Mk2 myself with the ZMF Aeolus. I'm looking at and Atticus right now for $1,200 used (Canadian). What tubes/risers are you using in that photo and what is the headphone cable?


That's forza audio cable


----------



## Baten

Yup  very recognizable


----------



## Thetaburn

Anyone's know what's the latest firmware for the Ares 2?


----------



## roderickvd

It’s on the Denafrips website.


----------



## JaquesGelee

Thetaburn said:


> Anyone's know what's the latest firmware for the Ares 2?


3.12 as far as i know.


----------



## dermott

Enyo rebadge? Assuming change is cosmetic only


----------



## roderickvd

That’s weird. Why change a vested,
well regarded name?


----------



## JaquesGelee (Nov 1, 2022)

Could you please explain!? I didn't get it. 🤔😅

Aunt Edit:
Ok, i got it after i've visit the website.

*_Enyo. (Greek mythology) Goddess of violent war, acting as a counterpart and companion to the war god Ares._

🤷🏼‍♂️ Either renamed or even a refresh.

Only @alvin1118 could tell us more.


----------



## Tubewin (Nov 10, 2022)

shafat777 said:


> What's the verdict on NOS vs OS mode? I just received my ARES 2 and so far I am loving the OS mode. With nos, the vocals sound magnificent with wife sojndtage but the low end sounds muddy and veiled. Is this right? Or am I missing something? This is my first foray into the world of R2R dacs so I could use some suggestion as to how to optimally set it up


You're not wrong. The highs are muddy and the lower midrange seems exaggerated. Been doing my best to give the Ares II a chance, but the integrated dac from my laptop sounds more dynamic, images better, and produces the highs better. I don't get the hype on the Ares II. Got the unit a few days ago and there is no return for denafrips stuff... The thing I feel I'm missing the most when listening to the Ares II is dynamics and I think that's because of the veiled highs. I agree completely with your assessment on NOS vocals. Vocals sound better on NOS than on OS, but I don't know if that's enough to redeem it. Overall I'm pretty disappointed. The hype on this thing is/was crazy.

Edit: It sounds much better after a xlr change and a few days of burn in. I really like the way the Ares sounds.


----------



## DeckHiFi

Tubewin said:


> You're not wrong. The highs are muddy and the lower midrange seems exaggerated. Been doing my best to give the Ares II a chance, but the integrated dac from my laptop sounds more dynamic, images better, and produces the highs better. I don't get the hype on the Ares II. Got the unit a few days ago and there is no return for denafrips stuff... The thing I feel I'm missing the most when listening to the Ares II is dynamics and I think that's because of the veiled highs. I agree completely with your assessment on NOS vocals. Vocals sound better on NOS than on OS, but I don't know if that's enough to redeem it. Overall I'm pretty disappointed. The hype on this thing is/was crazy.


It seems like I get a jist online from reviews that the ares II blows people away with speakers more than headphones. But you’re right, the hype for it was insane. But people like passion for sound prefer the Bifrost over the ares II for headphones which is maybe what you’re realizing.


----------



## Tubewin

DeckHiFi said:


> It seems like I get a jist online from reviews that the ares II blows people away with speakers more than headphones. But you’re right, the hype for it was insane. But people like passion for sound prefer the Bifrost over the ares II for headphones which is maybe what you’re realizing.


I'm using it with KEF 104.2 speakers... and a mcintosh amplifier. With occ copper power cords and interconnects.


----------



## DeckHiFi

Tubewin said:


> I'm using it with KEF 104.2 speakers... and a mcintosh amplifier. With occ copper power cords and interconnects.


Ah well I tried. The things people pointed to (I don't have it so I'm just going off watching a lot of reviews) is the sound felt natural or like you were really in the room with instruments. So I don't know why it got that much hype if you aren't noticing that. Maybe it needs synergy or perhaps you're used to a more dynamic sound and this is going for more natural and laid back? You might need to adjust to it or want to love that type of sound for it to work.


----------



## Tubewin (Nov 10, 2022)

DeckHiFi said:


> Ah well I tried. The things people pointed to (I don't have it so I'm just going off watching a lot of reviews) is the sound felt natural or like you were really in the room with instruments. So I don't know why it got that much hype if you aren't noticing that. Maybe it needs synergy or perhaps you're used to a more dynamic sound and this is going for more natural and laid back? You might need to adjust to it or want to love that type of sound for it to work.


Vocals do sound natural on NOS mode but the "Ares" sound is coated in a singular haze which hurts the highs and hurts dynamics. Husky female vocals sound even more masculine and the air and highs are lacking. But yeah, I can see if someone's system is extremely resolving and analytical, that the ares II could be something to consider. In my case, I thought it would have been an upgrade from a integrated dac from a generic laptop...

Edit: It sounds much better after a xlr change and a few days of burn in. I really like the way the Ares sounds.


----------



## Thetaburn

Tubewin said:


> Vocals do sound natural on NOS mode but the "Ares" sound is coated in a singular haze which hurts the highs and hurts dynamics. Husky female vocals sound even more masculine and the air and highs are lacking. But yeah, I can see if someone's system is extremely resolving and analytical, that the ares II could be something to consider. In my case, I thought it would have been an upgrade from a integrated dac from a generic laptop...


I had the 'haze' issue.
My solution was to plug the ares2 I to an electrical outlet that was directly wired into the main panel.
The haze was caused by electrical interference from my PC or some other electrical equipment.

Try plugging the Ares 2 into a seperate electrical outlet, on the same power strip or directly into the outlet to see if that makes a difference.


----------



## George Hincapie

Tubewin said:


> You're not wrong. The highs are muddy and the lower midrange seems exaggerated. Been doing my best to give the Ares II a chance, but the integrated dac from my laptop sounds more dynamic, images better, and produces the highs better. I don't get the hype on the Ares II. Got the unit a few days ago and there is no return for denafrips stuff... The thing I feel I'm missing the most when listening to the Ares II is dynamics and I think that's because of the veiled highs. I agree completely with your assessment on NOS vocals. Vocals sound better on NOS than on OS, but I don't know if that's enough to redeem it. Overall I'm pretty disappointed. The hype on this thing is/was crazy.



Honestly, bear with it. My Ares II and Iris DDC sounded absolute crap out of the box. I left them running a Roon stream 24/7 and by the two week mark they started to actually sound quite nice. Four or so weeks on and they offer a really engaging listening experience. Not the last word in detail, but for the price actually a steal IMHO.

And OS Slow is the best filter IME.


----------



## szore

Tubewin said:


> You're not wrong. The highs are muddy and the lower midrange seems exaggerated. Been doing my best to give the Ares II a chance, but the integrated dac from my laptop sounds more dynamic, images better, and produces the highs better. I don't get the hype on the Ares II. Got the unit a few days ago and there is no return for denafrips stuff... The thing I feel I'm missing the most when listening to the Ares II is dynamics and I think that's because of the veiled highs. I agree completely with your assessment on NOS vocals. Vocals sound better on NOS than on OS, but I don't know if that's enough to redeem it. Overall I'm pretty disappointed. The hype on this thing is/was crazy.


Gotta let it burn in for 1 month, 14 days min


----------



## Tubewin (Nov 10, 2022)

deleted


----------



## DeckHiFi

Tubewin said:


> If true, they should put that on their website. I'll give it 2 weeks... I mean, there isn't a return so, nothing more I can do.
> 
> 
> I tried OS but it sounds more "digital" and still not much better in the resolution department compared to NOS. NOS definitely sounds more organic albeit more veiled in the top end and exaggerated in the lower mids. Hopefully it will improve over time. Weirdly enough, I've been talking with a Denafrips rep and no one on that end suggested that burn in would improve the sound on the Ares II.


That’s interesting just from a simple sales perspective. Audio sales have a perfect reason for people to need to hold onto their product. It could sound better weeks later! Ha. Even if true. I don’t think we know yet if we just adjust to what we have so most high quality things sound good over time.


----------



## dougms3

All dacs and amps need some amount of burn in before the sound settles in.  

R2R dacs take quite a long time because they have alot of resistors, the ares also has many, many rows of caps.  

Since there is no return, might as well just give it time to burn in.  Leave it on and just run a signal through it with the amp off while you're sleeping and at work. 

I like to use this for burn in.


----------



## szore

Tubewin said:


> If true, they should put that on their website. I'll give it 2 weeks... I mean, there isn't a return so, nothing more I can do.
> 
> 
> I tried OS but it sounds more "digital" and still not much better in the resolution department compared to NOS. NOS definitely sounds more organic albeit more veiled in the top end and exaggerated in the lower mids. Hopefully it will improve over time. Weirdly enough, I've been talking with a Denafrips rep and no one on that end suggested that burn in would improve the sound on the Ares II.


Alvin says somewhere give it 14 days before critical listening.


----------



## sajunky

DeckHiFi said:


> But people like passion for sound prefer the Bifrost over the ares II for headphones which is maybe what you’re realizing.


For dynamics of BF2, but better synergy of harmonics you need Rockna (according to reviews, I didn't hear) or Audio GD.

For NOS, you need Audio GD. You can start from R2R-11 with quite good HPA/preamp. I do own, highly recommended is option with Crystek fem-to-second oscilators and galvanic protection which bring a cost close to $700.


----------



## sajunky

szore said:


> Alvin says somewhere give it 14 days before critical listening.


This is true for any discrete ladder DAC. Ares has standard oscilators, so two weeks is enough, but ultra low jitter oscilators are burning long time. When I upgraded to Crystek oscilators, it took 500 hours to get optimal performance.


----------



## Tubewin

DeckHiFi said:


> That’s interesting just from a simple sales perspective. Audio sales have a perfect reason for people to need to hold onto their product. It could sound better weeks later! Ha. Even if true. I don’t think we know yet if we just adjust to what we have so most high quality things sound good over time.


They don't have a return policy, so they have no incentive to tell you to "burn it in longer". But I'll burn it in for 2 weeks and see if it changes at all.


----------



## George Hincapie

Tubewin said:


> They don't have a return policy, so they have no incentive to tell you to "burn it in longer". But I'll burn it in for 2 weeks and see if it changes at all.


You have been given advice. It's real. Just accept it and stop fighting 😊


----------



## Tubewin (Nov 10, 2022)

George Hincapie said:


> You have been given advice. It's real. Just accept it and stop fighting 😊


Apologies, it is a great sounding dac.


----------



## George Hincapie (Nov 5, 2022)

Tubewin said:


> Woah, where did that come from. Was I fighting other people's advice? Are you an idiot?



Sometimes. Like when trying to help you for example. I won't bother again. Do what you want.


----------



## Tubewin (Nov 10, 2022)

George Hincapie said:


> Sometimes. Like when trying to help you for example. I won't bother again. Do what you want.


I wasn't fighting... I was listening and heeding the advice of others. They said two weeks, so I plan on burning it in for two weeks... I'm just disappointed in the initial sound. Most reviewers have said nothing about burning in the Ares II and if burn in made a substantial difference in the Ares. I believe in burn in, interconnects, power cords, clean power, etc. I believe everything matters, I was just disappointed that it didn't live up to the hype in the first 5 days of listening. I want to like the ares, so you can be the first to tell me, "I told you so" if my impression changes. No one is fighting, we're all in this hobby trying to get the most out of it. I might have taken, "You have been given advice. It's real. Just accept it and stop fighting 😊", out of context. If I did take it out of context, I'm sorry.

Edit: It sounds much better after a xlr change and a few days of burn in. I really like the way the Ares sounds.


----------



## sajunky

Tubewin said:


> Most reviewers have said nothing about burning in the Ares II and if burn in made a substantial difference in the Ares. I believe in burn in,[...]


Reviewers get a fully burned samples, so they forget to mention it. R2R ladder needs burning, it is not questionable. Difference is hudge, suddenly sounds open with a quality which is different to DS DACs. Also our ears need a time to accomodate to the unprocessed sound (or less processed), you will experience it on yourself, I promise.


----------



## roderickvd

I thought that Vinshine burned in all units 100 hours before shipping already. 

I can’t say I heard a difference on mine after some weeks. 

If you find the sound muddy, might it be the nature of R2R you don’t like or have you had other R2Rs to your liking?


----------



## Tubewin

sajunky said:


> Reviewers get a fully burned samples, so they forget to mention it. R2R ladder needs burning, it is not questionable. Difference is hudge, suddenly sounds open with a quality which is different to DS DACs. Also our ears need a time to accomodate to the unprocessed sound (or less processed), you will experience it on yourself, I promise.


My last two dacs have been r2r ladder dacs, so I am already accustomed/climatized "to the unprocessed sound (or less processed)". But you maybe right, it might be too early to have impressions so I'll wait.


----------



## dougms3

roderickvd said:


> I thought that Vinshine burned in all units 100 hours before shipping already.
> 
> I can’t say I heard a difference on mine after some weeks.
> 
> If you find the sound muddy, might it be the nature of R2R you don’t like or have you had other R2Rs to your liking?


I highly doubt that they would spend the time to burn in the device before shipping but either way its not enough.

Considering how the resistors receive electrical signals in various sequences to achieve a specific number, it will take quite a long time for those resistors to see enough current to fully burn in.  Its not like they're receiving constant current at each resistor.


----------



## Tubewin

roderickvd said:


> I thought that Vinshine burned in all units 100 hours before shipping already.
> 
> I can’t say I heard a difference on mine after some weeks.
> 
> If you find the sound muddy, might it be the nature of R2R you don’t like or have you had other R2Rs to your liking?


I have also heard that they burn in their dacs for 100 hours before shipping.
I hope there will be a difference as time goes on.
I loved the sound of all of my R2R dac's that I've listened to. I will not list them here, because that would seem inappropriate on a Denafrips thread with my less than favorable initial impressions.


----------



## Tubewin

dougms3 said:


> I highly doubt that they would spend the time to burn in the device before shipping but either way its not enough.
> 
> Considering how the resistors receive electrical signals in various sequences to achieve a specific number, it will take quite a long time for those resistors to see enough current to fully burn in.  Its not like they're receiving constant current at each resistor.


Fair enough, 100 hours may not be enough for a r2r ladder dac.


----------



## szore

dougms3 said:


> I highly doubt that they would spend the time to burn in the device before shipping but either way its not enough.
> 
> Considering how the resistors receive electrical signals in various sequences to achieve a specific number, it will take quite a long time for those resistors to see enough current to fully burn in.  Its not like they're receiving constant current at each resistor.


Hi, so they do burn the ares in at the factory it is in one of their youtube videos. Also burn in is just having it 'on' and at least in standby for 2 weeks, it does not have to process signal.


----------



## dougms3

szore said:


> Hi, so they do burn the ares in at the factory it is in one of their youtube videos. Also burn in is just having it 'on' and at least in standby for 2 weeks, it does not have to process signal.


All of the resistors highlighted in the red box need to see electrical current for a certain amount of time.  With the device only on standby and no audio signal, it won't see any current as it needs an audio signal to process the sound.

They light up in various combinations to achieve a specific number to process the sound.

If they are only leaving it on standby its only burning in the power supply and not the r2r ladder dac resistors.


----------



## NehPets

dougms3 said:


> All of the resistors highlighted in the red box need to see electrical current for a certain amount of time.  With the device only on standby and no audio signal, it won't see any current as it needs an audio signal to process the sound.
> 
> They light up in various combinations to achieve a specific number to process the sound.
> 
> If they are only leaving it on standby its only burning in the power supply and not the r2r ladder dac resistors.


So what actually happens to a resistor during burn-in?


----------



## dougms3

NehPets said:


> So what actually happens to a resistor during burn-in?


Stuff that changes sound lol.

I don't know exactly, there are alot of theories but i imagine the molecules need to settle into a more fixed condition.  And that is achieved with electrical current.

All i know is that the sound changes once it its burned in.  I don't have a definitive answer as to why.


----------



## Tubewin (Nov 10, 2022)

Hmm, swapped out the Audio Quest Coffee usb cable for a standard usb cable and it sounds more incisive, more delineated, and the highs more pronounced. The AQ Coffee may not be a good pairing with the Ares. I have a AQ diamond in my reference setup and do not have the issues the AQ Coffee brings in that setup. I have a Singxer SU6 DDC lying around somewhere and a dedicated linear power supply(uptone audio JS-2) to go with it and a Revelation i2s cable. Might be a good idea to see if I can clean up the signal from the usb. Tempted to just purchase a second AQ Diamond usb cable but the cable would almost cost the same amount as the DAC, and for a work area system that might be overkill... decisions... Anyone try a ddc with the Ares II? Improvements?

Edit: it was the xlr's causing the issues. I like it much better now.


----------



## dougms3

Tubewin said:


> Hmm, swapped out the Audio Quest Coffee usb cable for a standard usb cable and it sounds more incisive, more delineated, and the highs more pronounced. The AQ Coffee may not be a good pairing with the Ares. I have a AQ diamond in my reference setup and do not have the issues the AQ Coffee brings in that setup. I have a Singxer SU6 DDC lying around somewhere and a dedicated linear power supply(uptone audio JS-2) to go with it and a Revelation i2s cable. Might be a good idea to see if I can clean up the signal from the usb. Tempted to just purchase a second AQ Diamond usb cable but the cable would almost cost the same amount as the DAC, and for a work area system that might be overkill... decisions... Anyone try a ddc with the Ares II? Improvements?


I have the audio-gd di20he.  Currently, its connected via coax.  

It improves the capabilities of the ares ii but I think the ares ii might be the limiting factor between the two.  The gains are there but I feel like it would be more with a higher end dac.


----------



## Kiats

Tubewin said:


> My last two dacs have been r2r ladder dacs, so I am already accustomed/climatized "to the unprocessed sound (or less processed)". But you maybe right, it might be too early to have impressions so I'll wait.


Yeah… give it a chance to burn in and open up. And see if Denafrips suits you. At the end of the day, it’s what you enjoy and that is all that matters.


----------



## NehPets

Tubewin said:


> Hmm, swapped out the Audio Quest Coffee usb cable for a standard usb cable and it sounds more incisive, more delineated, and the highs more pronounced. The AQ Coffee may not be a good pairing with the Ares. I have a AQ diamond in my reference setup and do not have the issues the AQ Coffee brings in that setup. I have a Singxer SU6 DDC lying around somewhere and a dedicated linear power supply(uptone audio JS-2) to go with it and a Revelation i2s cable. Might be a good idea to see if I can clean up the signal from the usb. Tempted to just purchase a second AQ Diamond usb cable but the cable would almost cost the same amount as the DAC, and for a work area system that might be overkill... decisions... Anyone try a ddc with the Ares II? Improvements?


I've seen a few reviews of Ares II + Iris that claim the addition of the Iris brings improvements.
I use a xDuoo X10T II, via USB (AQ Forest) or S/PDIF, with my Ares II and I'd be interested to know whether the addition of a DDC would yield any meaningful benefits.


----------



## halo26

I have this dac and i like it.  But if like to do a real A/B test against another dac. I have a Schiit SYS to A/B two dacs, so i can put that after the dac output.  The music source is usb.  What I am asking is how do i get the usb music source to go to both dacs simultaneously so that i can then do instantaneous a/b testing.


----------



## Tubewin (Nov 6, 2022)

Decided to swap some cables around, it's starting to come around. I didn't realize the neotech xlr cables (NEI-3001 III) I had were silver plated, and not even upocc silver. I just put in a pair of world's best mogami xlr's and it starting to sound good. I've told my audio dealer multiple times not to sell me anything with silver... guess I need to re-evaluate things with my dealer. The Ares II is growing on me.


----------



## ssmith3046

I bought a pair of Amazon Basics cables that are copper for $9 and like them better than the Kimber Silver Streaks I unloaded. Just my personal opinion of course.


----------



## Tubewin

ssmith3046 said:


> I bought a pair of Amazon Basics cables that are copper for $9 and like them better than the Kimber Silver Streaks I unloaded. Just my personal opinion of course.


I agree with your assessment on silver, it's a waste of money, unless you go full upocc non plated silver and even then it's about preference. Copper > silver for most situations. I highly dislike silver plated copper hybrid cables.


----------



## dougms3

ssmith3046 said:


> I bought a pair of Amazon Basics cables that are copper for $9 and like them better than the Kimber Silver Streaks I unloaded. Just my personal opinion of course.


Lol pic?


----------



## Tubewin (Nov 6, 2022)

dougms3 said:


> Lol pic?


I never had luck with hybrid silver cables. I had a pair of silver dragon xlr's that I've used for years, and swapping to a pair of mogami copper xlr's was a huge leap forward in my case. And then there was this situation where I swapped out those silver plated neotech cables with mogami copper xlr's and it was also an improvement to my ears. Pure copper is the safer bet imo.


----------



## dougms3

Tubewin said:


> I never had luck with hybrid silver cables. I had a pair of silver dragon xlr's that I've used for years, and swapping to a pair of mogami copper xlr's was a huge leap forward in my case. And then there was this situation where I swapped out those silver plated neotech cables with mogami copper xlr's and it was also an improvement to my ears. Copper is the safer bet imo.


Depends on the system, sometimes copper is better, sometimes silver, depending on what you're trying to achieve.  

I don't like using any plated wiring for interconnects.  I find its better to use an alloy or pure single metals.  I think for power cables SPC is ok but I remember reading a few articles regarding the effect of time smear with plated wiring and I think it becomes a negative factor with interconnects.


----------



## Tubewin

dougms3 said:


> Depends on the system, sometimes copper is better, sometimes silver, depending on what you're trying to achieve.
> 
> I don't like using any plated wiring for interconnects.  I find its better to use an alloy or pure single metals.  I think for power cables SPC is ok but I remember reading a few articles regarding the effect of time smear with plated wiring and I think it becomes a negative factor with interconnects.


Yeah agreed, interconnects/power cords are definitely subjective to the person's system. But moving up the upgrade path I've noticed silver in general bottle necked my system more than copper ever did. I was considering the neotech amazon cables which are non plated pure upocc silver. But don't want to spend 1500.00 to find out if that silver cable could be the exception.


----------



## keenerz

looks like the ares 12th is the new version now.


----------



## Baten

keenerz said:


> looks like the ares 12th is the new version now.


Interesting~


----------



## keenerz (Nov 7, 2022)

not ashamed to say i pulled the trigger on one lol… i have an regular ares II (Enyo) i really wanted the I2S and wasn’t really willing to go up to a Pontus II yet as i have an Iris as well

edit: I also realize now looking at my desk that I do not have the space for a Pontus II as well (sad haha)


----------



## ssmith3046

dougms3 said:


> Lol pic?


----------



## PopZeus

12th anniversary edition looks interesting. I wonder how much it's changed from the v2 in terms of sound quality, and how it compares to the Musician Pegasus...


----------



## Ufanco

keenerz said:


> not ashamed to say i pulled the trigger on one lol… i have an regular ares II (Enyo) i really wanted the I2S and wasn’t really willing to go up to a Pontus II yet as i have an Iris as well
> 
> edit: I also realize now looking at my desk that I do not have the space for a Pontus II as well (sad haha)


Debating buying it but money is tight after buying new amp. Waiting here back if only difference is new I²S input. Have a feeling this drive the price of used ares 2 down a bit. Plus if buy the 12 anniversary would motivate me to buy a iris. 
Between buying the mest indigos and the wells dragon amp already over spent on gear this year.


----------



## keenerz

keenerz said:


> not ashamed to say i pulled the trigger on one lol… i have an regular ares II (Enyo) i really wanted the I2S and wasn’t really willing to go up to a Pontus II yet as i have an Iris as well
> 
> edit: I also realize now looking at my desk that I do not have the space for a Pontus II as well (sad haha)


so..... after thinking about it. I decided to upgrade to a pontus II haha.  I still dont have the space but I'll have to find a way I suppose.


----------



## Tubewin

That's hilarious, purchased the ares II and they release the 12th edition a week later? Their rep didn't say a word. Awesome stuff.


----------



## dougms3

Tubewin said:


> That's hilarious, purchased the ares II and they release the 12th edition a week later? Their rep didn't say a word. Awesome stuff.


Damn that sucks.

Not a good way to earn repeat business.


----------



## Tubewin

Well, I asked if they could take it back since it's literally been a week since it arrived to me, if I could pay the difference and return the Ares II for a 12th. Lets see how they handle this.


----------



## keenerz

let us know how that goes, I'm wondering myself how they're gonna handle it since they're policy is no returns.


----------



## Tubewin (Nov 10, 2022)

They should give at least two weeks (probably longer) notice of a product launch that would be replacing an existing model... what a way to start a relationship.

Edit: Alvin resolved the issue. Will be returning Ares II for the 12th.


----------



## George Hincapie

keenerz said:


> so..... after thinking about it. I decided to upgrade to a pontus II haha.  I still dont have the space but I'll have to find a way I suppose.


I'm waiting. I would like a Pontus II, but don't want to buy one just for Denafrips to release Pontus II 12th Anniversary Edition 🤣


----------



## George Hincapie

Tubewin said:


> They should give at least two weeks (probably longer) notice of a product launch that would be replacing an existing model... what a way to start a relationship.


I just spent the best part of US $4000 on a new HPA, just for the company to announce a 15% discount across their entire range. Some days you're the hammer and some days you're the nail...


----------



## keenerz

George Hincapie said:


> I'm waiting. I would like a Pontus II, but don't want to buy one just for Denafrips to release Pontus II 12th Anniversary Edition 🤣


Gonna be honest I just emailed Denafrips themselves to ask lol. I guess I'll see what their answer is


----------



## Tubewin (Nov 10, 2022)

George Hincapie said:


> I just spent the best part of US $4000 on a new HPA, just for the company to announce a 15% discount across their entire range. Some days you're the hammer and some days you're the nail...


Yeah. But a week though. A WEEK. They didn't have the courtesy to announce a product replacement? That is low. What amp did you get if you don't mind me asking.

Edit: Alvin resolved the issue. Will be returning Ares II for the 12th.


----------



## George Hincapie

keenerz said:


> Gonna be honest I just emailed Denafrips themselves to ask lol. I guess I'll see what their answer is


Please tell me 😊


----------



## George Hincapie

Tubewin said:


> Yeah. But a week though. A WEEK. They didn't have the courtesy to announce a product replacement? That is low. What amp did you get if you don't mind me asking.


Linear Tube Audio MZ3.


----------



## roderickvd

Did you buy from Vinshine? In the past Alvin sent out new versions even if you ordered a new one. And was very lenient with trading in for higher-end models.

Unaware of this new development, I am somewhat glad I sold my Ares II last month. Surely this will drop the prices of second-hand Ares II units.

Had I known about this anniversary edition, I might have gone for it. I2S and true NOS are great features. The USB looks upgraded too, on a separate board now? I wonder if I2S is still reclocked -- hopefully not.


----------



## Tubewin

George Hincapie said:


> Linear Tube Audio MZ3.


Snazzy looking amp, I must say.


----------



## Tubewin (Nov 10, 2022)

roderickvd said:


> Did you buy from Vinshine? In the past Alvin sent out new versions even if you ordered a new one. And was very lenient with trading in for higher-end models.
> 
> Unaware of this new development, I am somewhat glad I sold my Ares II last month. Surely this will drop the prices of second-hand Ares II units.
> 
> Had I known about this anniversary edition, I might have gone for it. I2S and true NOS are great features. The USB looks upgraded too, on a separate board now? I wonder if I2S is still reclocked -- hopefully not.


I bought DIRECTLY from Vinshine.... They haven't said a word.

Edit: Alvin resolved the issue. Will be returning Ares II for the 12th.


----------



## George Hincapie

roderickvd said:


> Did you buy from Vinshine? In the past Alvin sent out new versions even if you ordered a new one. And was very lenient with trading in for higher-end models.
> 
> Unaware of this new development, I am somewhat glad I sold my Ares II last month. Surely this will drop the prices of second-hand Ares II units.
> 
> Had I known about this anniversary edition, I might have gone for it. I2S and true NOS are great features. The USB looks upgraded too, on a separate board now? I wonder if I2S is still reclocked -- hopefully not.


I was surprised to see that on the spec. How exactly is the Ares II now true NOS? What have they changed?


----------



## keenerz

I think the confusing part will be that this would technically be a product they still sell as the "enyo" and the Ares 12th is like a new line. So I guess you will need to see what Alvin says specifically about if he will be allowing you to get the 12th.


----------



## George Hincapie

Tubewin said:


> Snazzy looking amp, I must say.



Thank you. My first tube based HPA.


----------



## Tubewin

George Hincapie said:


> Thank you. My first tube based HPA.


Clean. Makes me want to buy better shelving for my setup.


----------



## PopZeus

I need to know more about NOS on other Denafrips DACs after some sleuths uncovered that NOS on the Ares 2 is faked. If the 12A edition is true NOS, that would change things for me.


----------



## sajunky

The


PopZeus said:


> I need to know more about NOS on other Denafrips DACs after some sleuths uncovered that NOS on the Ares 2 is faked. If the 12A edition is true NOS, that would change things for me.


The guy also claimed that there is some sound processing, another reason for Ares being not a real NOS, but couldn't give any details of this claim, not to mention a proof. Send him a note, he will be happy to investigate. His primary objective was to prove that Holo Audio was a real NOS, but at least he will be wiling to uncover details in a new design.


----------



## Thetaburn

For the Ares 12th - can you have the XLR and RCA output plugged at the same time?


----------



## George Hincapie (Nov 8, 2022)

Thetaburn said:


> For the Ares 12th - can you have the XLR and RCA output plugged at the same time?



Physically, yes of course. Electronically it is not advised. So no.


----------



## dougms3

Thetaburn said:


> For the Ares 12th - can you have the XLR and RCA output plugged at the same time?


Both outputs are active all the time, if you plug in more than one output, you will get distortion out of both outputs.


----------



## keenerz

yeah i dont think that part has changed bout the ares II.


----------



## tmac17 (Nov 8, 2022)

Tubewin said:


> I'm using it with KEF 104.2 speakers... and a mcintosh amplifier. With occ copper power cords and interconnects.


...


----------



## Tubewin

tmac17 said:


> ...


???


----------



## XERO1 (Nov 8, 2022)

2 steps forward, 2 steps back. 

Love the addition of the I2S input and the dedicated OS/NOS button, but _*hate*_ the loss of _TWO_ digital inputs (coaxial and optical). 

It would have been fine if it was just a loss of one optical input to make room for the I2S, but not the second coax input as well.

And why no dedicated Filter button? They should get rid of that stupid Mute function (that no one ever uses) and use the button for switching the filter instead. 

Gonna pass on this one.


----------



## Tubewin

XERO1 said:


> 2 steps forward, 2 steps back.
> 
> Love the addition of the I2S input and the dedicated OS/NOS button, but _*hate*_ the loss of _TWO_ digital inputs (coaxial and optical).
> 
> ...


The addition of i2s is enough to get me interested.


----------



## George Hincapie (Nov 8, 2022)

XERO1 said:


> 2 steps forward, 2 steps back.
> 
> Love the addition of the I2S input and the dedicated OS/NOS button, but _*hate*_ the loss of _TWO_ digital inputs (coaxial and optical).
> 
> ...


I think you're being a bit of a Drama Queen TBH. It's an £800 DAC, what more do you want?!

Buy an Yggy if you want to run multiple outputs at the same time.


----------



## George Hincapie

Tubewin said:


> The addition of i2s is enough to get me interested.


Me too.


----------



## XERO1

George Hincapie said:


> I think you're being a bit of a Drama Queen TBH. It's an £800 DAC, what more do you want?!


----------



## shogo33

sajunky said:


> The
> 
> The guy also claimed that there is some sound processing, another reason for Ares being not a real NOS, but couldn't give any details of this claim, not to mention a proof. Send him a note, he will be happy to investigate. His primary objective was to prove that Holo Audio was a real NOS, but at least he will be wiling to uncover details in a new design.


My gut seems to think the NOS option on the 12th anniv edition may still not be 'true' NOS.  But lets see what Denafrips say.  
The omission of the AC filter is perplexing to me as one would think this is necessary?


----------



## sajunky

shogo33 said:


> The omission of the AC filter is perplexing to me as one would think this is necessary?


AC filter is not required for the analogue power supply. I actually prefer no AC filter, as it helps distributing switching noise from rectifiers out of the equipment. A better place for such filter is outside of the enclosure.

If our jubilee has still auto voltage switching facility, there is a small SMPS and I am sure this circuit have a filter, either inside the module or outside.


----------



## George Hincapie (Nov 9, 2022)

See response from Alvin re: Ares 12th NOS.


----------



## XERO1 (Nov 9, 2022)

George Hincapie said:


> See response from Alvin re: Ares NOS.



It'll be *very interesting* to see what GoldenSound discovers when he eventually gets one to test.


----------



## George Hincapie

XERO1 said:


> It'll be *very interesting* to see what GoldenSound discovers when he eventually gets one to test.


Do you think he will re-test?


----------



## roderickvd

That already was the case, nothing new then. It does not mean that it is not oversampling or reclocked.


----------



## Baten

George Hincapie said:


> See response from Alvin re: Ares 12th NOS.


I wonder if this proofs/admits some kind of DSP processing in non-NOS mode. As some people suspected I.e. Goldensound


----------



## PopZeus

There's just a LOT of competition in the ~$1K R-2R DAC space now, and ideally the 12A edition would be more on par with some of the rival makers.


----------



## Tubewin

PopZeus said:


> There's just a LOT of competition in the ~$1K R-2R DAC space now, and ideally the 12A edition would be more on par with some of the rival makers.


Good news everyone! So I spoke with Alvin, and he has agreed to take back the Ares II so I can put it towards the Ares 12th.


----------



## Tubewin

He also said he was following the discussion on this head-fi thread, so he is paying attention to our concerns.


----------



## whitedragem

True NOS like the rest of the product line is the only reason that would make me jump onboard, otherwise- saving coin and getting an ‘older model’ might not rest so well with my mind (theorhetically mode NOS=OS’ing), but probably will sound at least 90%+ (+++) like this one… 

If the revised AC setup allows electrical switching noises an easier pathway OUT of the unit, then ‘yay’; even though the photo’s (+1 heatsink/-1 ‘filter’) don’t lead me ‘either way’ when making a decision… 
The redone capacitor bank does “Look COOL”; like some genius has had a lot of product feedback and testing to know who to revise this section towards lower maintenance costs/improved (potential) performance etc…

Must admit my main/only reason for having not bought one of these sooner was the inevitable refresh I might be able to pickup if I patiently waited- whilst at the same time knowing that every manufacturer on the planet is looking at ways to cut costs and increase profits (just to stay afloat), my interest at most hifi is towards part designed and built ‘pre covid’.
Having been waiting for many months for the ‘Enyo’ to pick up a price rise; am ‘very happy’ with Denafrips methodology of refresh and charge a token amount for raising the bar of sound quality in their lowest tiered DAC offerering.

As mentioned above, making that ‘Mute’ button (on the front panel) a ‘Filter Select’ (direct), even via a firmware update as an ‘optional’ setup (the button will say ‘Mute’, but would actually select filters, something only the owner would care to know anyway…) would improve usability..

As someone who has been the ‘gopher’ in the room when A/B testing /‘listening testing’, and having some sort of secret handshake to perform each time I opened the hifi cabinet, did make me chuckle- like the Ares was built to sound great and ‘who cares’ about installation.

Few posts above asking about whether you can hook up to both outputs simultaneously- I love the prospective users demographic differences- On a Topping D90 DAC forum everyone 	RAVES about it having multiple hookup terminals, and whilst acknowledging ‘doesn’t sound as good if they are both hooked up’ (serious users’, chasing ultimate sound quality output (from a D90) deactivate everything they can and stream line the product down to a very simplified use), but the notion that the ‘spec sheet buyers’ who KNOW audio is simply a few measured points on a white doc, will simultaneously ‘talk up’ their ‘ultimate’ DAC and just run with whatever ACTUAL sound quality it renders.

I find a D90 horrible as a DAC. (yes I have owned quite a few R2R DACs over the decades)..
From a room away, it does an ‘acceptible job’ of making the recording playback a range of frequencies at very specific volume variabilities… a ‘sense’ of music playing nearby, if you will…
If I hook up the line level output from a Astell and Kern DAP, tuned for ‘audio’ and not ‘spec sheets’ - the lowly transport/DAC (SA700) sounds ‘pretty good’.. (and can make the D90 sound better than a few other DAPs/transports fed into it, if using the SA700 as a transport only..),.. 
When benchmarking the D90 vs an iFi Diablo, the Diablo, whilst having very obvious ‘digital traits’ generally undetectable unless intensely listening and comparing against other ‘entry level’ (hifi) DACs, the D90 can take a few wins if using it just to inspect the full detail present from a digital source.. 
but, in terms of musicality, the iFi Diablo (considered their best DAC in similar pricepoint to a Denafrips Ares), smashes the Topping product, and certainly is my pick of ‘budget chip DACs’ (it certainly isn’t THAT budget, to many many head-fiers)..
The Diablo can be revealed as being hyper ‘digital’, but the requisite stereo kit and speakers/headphones to reveal this/‘make this obvious’ are well beyond a ‘system synergy’ pricepoint, and hopefully not all that common a setup. 
The Denafrips is of course the best obvious step to most head-fiers for going to the next tier of sound quality. (for those who want to avoid Chord DACs method of ‘colouring’ the sound (which sounds great but isn’t technically honest to the recording, and therefore isn’t my goto DAC topology 100% of the time (eg pin point locational information whilst ‘gaming’ is heavily compromised via Chord methods’ for ‘filtering’)..

So, is a <20% price hike for an ??%> in quality output ‘great news’?

ABSOLUTELY

Glad to see that the Enyo didn’t just become the 12th with a price hike and ‘little else’.
The18bit structure of the last product (OS even in NOS mode or whatever its’ “deficiency” was from entire range of other Denafrips product line (ie the baby of the product line) has just grown up a little…
Like some chin hair has sprouted and no reviewers have yet pointed out the product has matured (and is time to buy a shaver)..

Looking forward to hear some feedback re: the improved power flow and digital handling now capable from the ‘wee bubba’ Denafrips DAC.
Cheers /glad to know Vinshine are following head-fi (and delivering top tier customer service- accepting a middleground for not announcing ‘new product’, and letting people caught in the rotating door ‘get out’ whereever makes them happiest…); we love your ‘work’- hope that ‘long cough’ settles shortly (well wishes with’ good guv’na)

I’d certainly install ANY Denafrips DAC into the home hifi rig, and simply sit back knowing my audio journey is (that part) done…

Listening to Eric Clapton play an intimate Church hall, having the ‘band’ playout in the airspace of the room obviously sitting in front of each other (or in ‘a perfect circle’) is fantastic, and not something digital gets right (in sub $1000 DACs isn’t really ‘a thing’), but having heard exactly this (from an Ares II) and even having the joy of hearing that DAC ‘break-in’ the soundstage/soundfield and ‘natural’ musical playback (that is enjoyable to be in the room or elsewhere, listening with ones heart cause we are engaged with something that doesn’t just remind us of what music sounds like (eg Topping DAC tuned for spec sheet), but recreates music as natural soundwaves that are not harshly recreated/output sounding very ‘screeching opamp’ (Topping D90).. 
The Denafrips seem to have the best of volume sales (lowish pricepoint for an R2R ladder), and enough science behind them (computer and hand matched parts etc) to really make something worth remembering, or always feeling great when seeing one.. (basically you are in a friends home of someone who puts ‘ears first’ when selecting hifi).

apols for longish post, morning coffee break ends when I hit print (send)
grins…


----------



## sajunky

Ares is now close to Pegasus in terms of features and price, but what about unusual long and variable latency that was preventing instalation in home video systems? At least USB connection should be free from such delays.

Any change from the relaxed (reduced dynamic) signature of Denafrips? Musician users claim that sound is more dynamic, still not so punchy and alive like in Audio GD or Rockna DACs. At least NOS mode (if really a real NOS) should bring some similarities.


----------



## soundfr (Nov 10, 2022)

I have decided to order the denafrips Ares 12th as an early adoption . The fact the denafrips 2 doesn’t have any IIS, AES, BNC inputs was a NOGO for me.
The addition of IIS to ARES convince me to make the jump. I am not about convinced about these clone Chinese DACs : topping, SMSL, gustard, Singxer….  I am not comfortable either to buy a dac the same price as my decware zen triode UFO SE84UFO2.1.

The other DAC I could consider (RME, Schiit) lack AES/IIS input,  the Okto dac8 has AEA input but doesn’t have unbalanced output (RCA)

So ares 12th looks the perfect match for 1k€ DAC.

But, after deeper analysis, it looks like that in the ARES 12th denafrips remove the AC filter, put less capicator but bigger one (73 against 20 for Ares II). I hope this 2 major changes are not  cost cutting oriented but designed oriented. Less capacitor mean to me less workload / expense to not solder 73 capacitors.

My Hifi chain is like this

PI2AES --IIS out--> Ares 12th --xlr out --> decware UFO SE84UFO2.1   --> tekton lore reference

I’ll share my modest assessment, music wise when I got the ARES 12th and the  burning properly done.


----------



## Getafix

Considering inflation and all kinds of component troubles, cost cutting is inevitable.


----------



## DeckHiFi

Getafix said:


> Considering inflation and all kinds of component troubles, cost cutting is inevitable.


Nah. Not inevitable. You still have to deliver the standard people are expecting. If you need to raise your price $100 like Schiit has been doing recently, then people will understand. Even more impressive if you have to raise it $100 but you add extra features too. That’s great customer service. You could just cut things. But I like a certain approach way more.


----------



## Baten

soundfr said:


> The other DAC I could consider (RME, Schiit) lack AES/IIS input


The RME doesn't have AES in?


----------



## soundfr

RME ADI-2 does not have any AES, IIS inputs

Let me share my dac matrix comparison if can help any one here.
*X meaning, the feature exist*


*Input**Input**Input* *Output**Output**Output**SINAD*NotesAESIISBNCXLRRCAHeadphone*Denafrips ARES *900€ TTCXX103*Okto dac8   *       1680€ TTCXXX122*RME ADI-2.     *            1110€ TTCXXX115*Topping D90SE   * 990€ TT XXXX123*Gustard X26 Pro   *  1500€ TTC XXXXX120Bass*Gustard x18   *      760€ TTCXXXX123*Schiit Gungnir.  *  1249€ TTCXX X*Schiit bifrost 2. 799€ TTC*XX*Singxer SDA6 *Pro 1289€TTCxxxxX*PONTUS II     *1750€ TTCxxxxx


----------



## sajunky

soundfr said:


> RME ADI-2 does not have any AES, IIS inputs
> 
> Let me share my dac matrix comparison if can help any one here.
> *X meaning, the feature exist*
> ...


Audio GD R-8Mk2 (in the price range of Pontus) has all required connections, the cheaper R-1 the same. All outputs can be used simultaneously. Better DACs feature galvanic isolation on all ports, including USB, R-8Mk2 does, R-1 do not. Don't forget this feature.

If a headphone output is on your purchase list, then R-28 and R-27 are here. Quite good amps. You pay the same price for the amp alone.


----------



## roderickvd

Nice, this could be the start for a great wiki or database.

I own a SDA-6 PRO and used to own an Ares II. The SINAD of the SDA-6 PRO is specified as 118 dB and measured by L7Audio as 120 dB.

Not sure what you mean with "notes"? There is more than enough to note for each DAC


----------



## soundfr

roderickvd said:


> Nice, this could be the start for a great wiki or database.
> 
> I own a SDA-6 PRO and used to own an Ares II. The SINAD of the SDA-6 PRO is specified as 118 dB and measured by L7Audio as 120 dB.
> 
> Not sure what you mean with "notes"? There is more than enough to note for each DAC


I was eying the SDA-6 Pro also but I choose to  go to a R2R Dacs.
How it’s compare to the Ares II from your experience ?
Notes it’s one word to describe the sound characteristics of the DAC : bright, warm, transparent, mid range, bass…


----------



## soundfr

sajunky said:


> Audio GD R-8Mk2 (in the price range of Pontus) has all required connections, the cheaper R-1 the same. All outputs can be used simultaneously. Better DACs feature galvanic isolation on all ports, including USB, R-8Mk2 does, R-1 do not. Don't forget this feature.
> 
> If a headphone output is on your purchase list, then R-28 and R-27 are here. Quite good amps. You pay the same price for the amp alone.


Yes definitely. Personally I am not convinced about USB as a value input for HIFI sound quality purpose (jitter, clocks issue, noises…)
I consider it a nice to have.
Audio GD is definitely a good brand, I like their design philosophy : one product for one specific need, no multi purpose Swiss knife stuff like topping. 
My first mandatory requirement is that a DAC should not cost more then my amp.


----------



## sajunky (Nov 10, 2022)

soundfr said:


> Yes definitely. Personally I am not convinced about USB as a value input for HIFI sound quality purpose (jitter, clocks issue, noises…)


USB if properly designed do not introduce any jitter to the datastream and isolated port protects from ground loop noise. If you are limiting yourself to the digital S/PDIF connection jitter cannot be avoided, unless... unless... both source and a DAC have an input for the external clock (which R-8Mk2 has, BTW), but otherwise this feature is only seen in high-end equipment.


----------



## Chodi

I own the Ares II and think it is a remarkable value.  There are over 3000 posts in this thread so I want to point out something that may have been lost in all the posts. The output impedance in balanced out of the Ares II is unusally high at 1250 Ohms. This is something that can effect the performance of this dac dramatically when paired with amps that have low input values. Although it is not an issue with many amps it is (as in my case) an issue with some. The rca ouput impedance is much lower and will safely pair with almost any amp. I recently purchaced a Cayin IHA-6 SS amp to put in one of my systems. I could not uunderstand at first why balanced output was not nearly as it should be ( the output of this amp is rated at less than 1 ohm). I quickly realized that using the rca output of my Ares II brought dramatically better results. Turns out the input impedance of this particular solid state amp was not compatable with the high output impedance of the balanced output on the Ares II. I used the rca connection and problem solved. Just thought I would point this out to Ares II owners as it can have a dramatic effect on performance depending on what amp you may be using.


----------



## roderickvd

soundfr said:


> I was eying the SDA-6 Pro also but I choose to  go to a R2R Dacs.
> How it’s compare to the Ares II from your experience ?
> Notes it’s one word to describe the sound characteristics of the DAC : bright, warm, transparent, mid range, bass…


Comparatively, the SDA-6 is not as warm (though still far from analytical!) and has a wider soundstage.


----------



## sajunky

Chodi said:


> The rca ouput impedance is much lower and will safely pair with almost any amp.


Ares RCA output impeedance is twice lower than a balanced. Requirements for the input impedance is also twice rated: 47k Ohms for SE and 95k Ohms for balanced. If your amp meet these figures, there is no problem, except the fact that both outputs of Ares cannot be connected in the same time. 

In practice a lower input impedance can be used, frequently is suggested a minimum factor 10:1. So for RCA it is around 12k Ohms, balanced 25k Ohms. This is necessary to protect linear response of the ladder (meaning not getting increased distortions). There can be another problem, a high frequency roll-off due to the influence on the input low pass filter cut off frequency. This issue must be examined individually, it can't be predicted not knowing exact filter details. 

If you use the amp with a standard input impedance, there is no need to worry about these technical issues.


----------



## simon740

My Exposure 3010S2D has 17k Ohm input impedance. When I had the Ares II connected to this amp there were no problems at all. Everything sounded great.


----------



## Ufanco (Nov 11, 2022)

Been using the new test audio for the ares 12 and a bit confused over the phase test. Any suggesting on how to use it be great.

2 post up there a discussion of amp input impedance, mine is 25k does that mean I have nothing to worry about? Sorry bit confused today chemo brain or pain pills messing with my though process.


----------



## whitedragem

sajunky said:


> …what about unusual long and variable latency that was preventing instalation in home video systems? At least USB connection should be free from such delays.



Cannot talk with regards to USB (and video), but with regards to other digital inputs and ‘delay’, I am not sure if this is an overhyped ‘thing’ or perhaps removed from ACTUAL context?
Sure in the installation where I checked out an Ares II (first I had seen), we played with the delay/sync feature from the Bluray player (~50-100ms), eventually settling on a midpoint between these ‘mild’ adjustments… 

Many (/most?) users would have this delay in their loungerooms with most/all media.
When the delay gets to 200-250ms, many people will ‘get upset’.

The Denafrips certainly wasn’t anywhere near any such numbers,.. and the ‘slight’ adjustment we tinkered onto it simply felt right to match its’ accuracy of the playback.. (air space in the recording could make the soundstage many many times larger than the physical room, so when a sound felt like it was coming from 300 metres away was also ‘slightly delayed’ it put me on edge (most of my audio media is sans video footage), and whilst the owner never noticed it, I adjusted the delay by the time we hit the second source DVD/bluray…

Next time I visited the owner had tweaked my ‘initial estimate’ back by 20ms (which did feel better/‘more accurate’).
We are talking a range that was practically standard from many (good) TVs when processing their video..
Probably an issue more of users finally buying approx 20 milli second response time sets that have started making it to market in the higher end sets (gaming/auto VLLM/HDMI 2.1 high Hz), so for the first time in twenty years, ‘is “a thing”.’..  (Cathode Ray Tube TVs had zero latency / <2msec)

The Denafrips delay, again ‘haven’t tested USB’ (for Video), was so insignificant that the only reason I touched it was the notion that the hifi rig I was auditioning was ‘done’!
(It was a polite way to approve/‘nod the head’, to say ‘seal of goodness’-yeehar!!)


----------



## Tubewin

Just got notification from Vinshine that the Ares 12th is on the way! That was extremely fast considering that the return package hasn't even arrived to them yet!


----------



## XERO1 (Nov 11, 2022)

Ufanco said:


> Been using the new test audio for the ares 12 and a bit confused over the phase test. Any suggesting on how to use it be great.



It is impossible to determine by ear if your system is in positive or negative polarity or 'absolute phase'.

With speakers, you can visually check to see if your bass drivers move out (positive polarity) or in (negative polarity) with a specific type of test signal. But with headphones, it's difficult or impossible to visually see the driver to do this test, so it requires a test signal and a recording device.

There are apps for cellphones like PhaseChecker for iPhone or Polarity Checker for Andriod that should enable you to properly test for this.


----------



## soundfr

Chodi said:


> The output impedance in balanced out of the Ares II is unusally high at 1250 Ohms.


The output impedance is definitely a pain point. It limites the amp/pre amp choice.
For example the Topping Pre90 has only 2KΩ XLR input impedance and therefore can’t drive the ARES II for volume control.
There’s other preamp affordable clone preamp   choice out here like Gustard, SMSL

I want to stick to this rule, price wise
Preamp price < DAC price < Amp price

Anyone has a good preamp under 1K€ to share ?


----------



## sajunky

soundfr said:


> I want to stick to this rule, price wise
> Preamp price < DAC price < Amp price
> 
> Anyone has a good preamp under 1K€ to share ?


Why not AIO? Audio GD R-28. You pay a price for the amp alone or a DAC alone, not to mention a preamp. Because you are saving on two, you can afford a higher model, like R-27 or R27HE.


----------



## soundfr

sajunky said:


> Why not AIO? Audio GD R-28. You pay a price for the amp alone or a DAC alone, not to mention a preamp. Because you are saving on two, you can afford a higher model, like R-27 or R27HE.


it’s all in one multi purpose device. I am wondering how much design compromise they made to have all these capabilities working well.
Compare to denafrips the measurement of AGD look terrible.


----------



## sajunky

soundfr said:


> it’s all in one multi purpose device. I am wondering how much design compromise they made to have all these capabilities working well.
> Compare to denafrips the measurement of AGD look terrible.


You didn't see how Denafrips measurements look terribly against Holo Audio DACs, why you don't chose Springs? And why you don't chose Topping D10/D30 Delta-Sigma $100 that measure even better? Even dongle DACs measure better than Denafrips. Chose a $10 dongle.  

These Audio GD combos lose very little in quality to the plain DAC: i.e. R-28 to R-1. The amp section is equivalent to the standalone NFB-1AMP. The amp section in R-27 is equivalent to Master 19. Even the amp in my R2R-11 (which was selling for $350) is a decent quality. No complains when pairing with HD600, works with sensitive headphones too. All these amps are discrete no feedback design, there are no cost cuts on electronics.
.


----------



## Tubewin (Nov 12, 2022)

.


----------



## dougms3

Tubewin said:


> Not everyone is going to like Audio GD Sajunky. You are pushing too hard for Audio GD on a Denafrips thread. You were doing the same thing on the Holo threads...  maybe you will get more people to like Audio GD if you didn't mention them so frequently, especially on threads that have nothing to do with Audio GD as a company.


Theres a reason why the people who have audio-gd products praise it so highly.

I have several audio-gd products and my personal opinion is that everything they make is overengineered and performs at a much higher price point.  The only down side of audio-gd gear is the size.  Unfortunately, its just the nature of the beast when using high quality r core transformers and complex discrete designs, it just tends to cause a large footprint.  It can be built vertically but that tends to introduce noise.

Don't believe the hate on ASR regarding audio-gd stuff, I suspect that he doesn't provide amir or anyone else with free "samples" like the chi-fi manufacturers popular on that site so he decided to trash his products.  I guess he's not getting as rich as he wants by demanding "donations" from forum members.


----------



## soundfr (Nov 12, 2022)

sajunky said:


> You didn't see how Denafrips measurements look terribly against Holo Audio DACs, why you don't chose Springs? And why you don't chose Topping D10/D30 Delta-Sigma $100 that measure even better? Even dongle DACs measure better than Denafrips. Chose a $10 dongle.
> 
> These Audio GD combos lose very little in quality to the plain DAC: i.e. R-28 to R-1. The amp section is equivalent to the standalone NFB-1AMP. The amp section in R-27 is equivalent to Master 19. Even the amp in my R2R-11 (which was selling for $350) is a decent quality. No complains when pairing with HD600, works with sensitive headphones too. All these amps are discrete no feedback design, there are no cost cuts on electronics.
> .


It make non sense comparing Delta sigma and R2R Dacs. A delta sigma chip cost like 40$ and you have company selling delta sigma dacs over 1k$. They’re putting way too much components in the signal path, I can’t not call these stuff Hifi.
Delta sigma chi-fi clones make non sense to me, they all rely on high sinad to break headlines on ASR.
R2R are design engineering product, that’s match my hifi philosophy.
For the price AGD suceeded to put a dac, pre amp , HP amp and a lots of inputs (IIS, AES, coax, SPDIF, BNC, USB) whereas other R2R OEMs only bring a dac on the table for the same price. I am wondering how? For me, something is not adding up here.


----------



## Tubewin (Nov 12, 2022)

.


----------



## NehPets

soundfr said:


> The output impedance is definitely a pain point. It limites the amp/pre amp choice.
> For example the Topping Pre90 has only 2KΩ XLR input impedance and therefore can’t drive the ARES II for volume control.
> There’s other preamp affordable clone preamp   choice out here like Gustard, SMSL
> 
> ...


Khozmo Acoustic passive starts at under €500 for a unit with XLR inputs & remote volume control - beautifully put together.


----------



## Tubewin (Nov 15, 2022)

It's here and I'm happy to say the first impressions are favorable. Have not tried NOS yet, but the OS is good. Have not had the ares II long enough to compare thoroughly, but I do prefer the sound signature of the 12th over the Enyo(Ares II). Happy listening everyone.

It definitely has more weight and punch to the sound. Definitely more "analogue" sounding. I love it! Exactly what I was looking for.


----------



## soundfr

Tubewin said:


> It's here and I'm happy to say the first impressions are favorable. Have not tried NOS yet, but the OS is good. Have not had the ares II long enough to compare thoroughly, but I do prefer the sound signature of the 12th over the Enyo(Ares II). Happy listening everyone.


Enjoy!
What ddc are you using ?
This test cd can help in the burning process 
Dr.Z's Test CD


----------



## Tubewin

soundfr said:


> Enjoy!
> What ddc are you using ?
> This test cd can help in the burning process
> Dr.Z's Test CD


Using Singxer SU6, unfortunately my fuse blew on my js-2 linear power supply so I have to wait for another sr orange fuse to arrive, but it sounds amazing directly from usb.


----------



## George Hincapie

sajunky said:


> You didn't see how Denafrips measurements look terribly against Holo Audio DACs, why you don't chose Springs? And why you don't chose Topping D10/D30 Delta-Sigma $100 that measure even better? Even dongle DACs measure better than Denafrips. Chose a $10 dongle.
> 
> These Audio GD combos lose very little in quality to the plain DAC: i.e. R-28 to R-1. The amp section is equivalent to the standalone NFB-1AMP. The amp section in R-27 is equivalent to Master 19. Even the amp in my R2R-11 (which was selling for $350) is a decent quality. No complains when pairing with HD600, works with sensitive headphones too. All these amps are discrete no feedback design, there are no cost cuts on electronics.
> .


That is untrue. The Ares II was measured by ASR and it actually measures well.


----------



## George Hincapie

Tubewin said:


> It's here and I'm happy to say the first impressions are favorable. Have not tried NOS yet, but the OS is good. Have not had the ares II long enough to compare thoroughly, but I do prefer the sound signature of the 12th over the Enyo(Ares II). Happy listening everyone.
> 
> It definitely has more weight and punch to the sound. Definitely more "analogue" sounding. I love it! Exactly what I was looking for.


Give it time.

I never believed in burn in before I bought the Ares II. Mine sounded like 💩 for the first 2 weeks. I left it streaming Roon 24/7, just dropping in to check progress from time to time. After a couple of months it sounds really good.

Patience grasshopper!


----------



## sajunky

George Hincapie said:


> That is untrue. The Ares II was measured by ASR and it actually measures well.


What is untrue, you must be more specific. Or read it twice before posting? Better.


----------



## Tubewin

George Hincapie said:


> Give it time.
> 
> I never believed in burn in before I bought the Ares II. Mine sounded like 💩 for the first 2 weeks. I left it streaming Roon 24/7, just dropping in to check progress from time to time. After a couple of months it sounds really good.
> 
> Patience grasshopper!


There was an immediate difference though. The Ares II didn't have the punch the 12th does. Maybe it's the larger capacitors.


----------



## Ufanco (Nov 16, 2022)

Tubewin said:


> There was an immediate difference though. The Ares II didn't have the punch the 12th does. Maybe it's the larger capacitors.


Interesting I ask Alvin his thoughts on the Arres 12 along with some phase information. Being my ares sounds great not sure if worth $1000.00 to upgrade. 
Below is Alvins response.


> I am still evaluating the Ares 12th. It does sound a little more transparent and detailed compared to the Ares II. But overall, it is close to the Ares II, still a gap to the Pontus II.
> 
> If you already own the Ares II, I'd recommend the Pontus II as a real upgrade.
> 
> The phase button changes the output phase 0/180 degree. I leave mine on (LED on - positive). Some amplifiers invert the output phnase. You may trial and error to check which setting sounds best in your system.


----------



## George Hincapie

Tubewin said:


> There was an immediate difference though. The Ares II didn't have the punch the 12th does. Maybe it's the larger capacitors.


That's really interesting. Nice to know - enjoy!


----------



## George Hincapie (Nov 16, 2022)

sajunky said:


> What is untrue, you must be more specific. Or read it twice before posting? Better.


I read your post, I just think you are wrong. You say Ares II measures poorly, and ASR measurements prove it measures well.


----------



## Tubewin

It sounds better to me in phase mode activated (led light on) as well.


----------



## George Hincapie

Tubewin said:


> It sounds better to me in phase mode activated (led light on) as well.


You recieved your 12th. Happy with it?


----------



## Tubewin

George Hincapie said:


> You recieved your 12th. Happy with it?


Yes, I like it a lot. Did you think I was talking about the Ares II? I posted a picture of the 12th. I'm very happy with the Ares 12th. To be honest I like this budget system with the ares 12th so much I'm beginning to question why spend more on components when you can get this level of sound for so much cheaper (comparatively speaking).


----------



## George Hincapie

Tubewin said:


> Yes, I like it a lot. Did you think I was talking about the Ares II? I posted a picture of the 12th. I'm very happy with the Ares 12th. To be honest I like this budget system with the ares 12th so much I'm beginning to question why spend more on components when you can get this level of sound for so much cheaper (comparatively speaking).


I agree. The Ares is such an over achiever. Crazy really. I have compared it to my £5000 Metrum Acoustics Adagio, and the performance delta is far less than it ought to be.


----------



## sajunky (Nov 16, 2022)

George Hincapie said:


> I read your post, I just think you are wrong. You say Ares II measures poorly, and ASR measurements prove it measures well.


Better read it again. Highlighted area will help you easier pickup a context.


> You didn't see how Denafrips measurements look terribly *against Holo Audio DACs*, why you don't chose Springs?


----------



## George Hincapie

sajunky said:


> Better read it again. Highlighted area will help you easier pickup a context.


Got you. Fair enough.


----------



## Tubewin

With Alvin's blessing we'll be moving discussions of the ares 12th to a separate thread from the original Ares.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/denafrips-ares-12th-speculation-discussion-impressions.965720/


----------



## Gandah

New to this thread and am kinda in the market for a new DAC heard so many good things about the Denafrips Ares ll, however, one thing I did hear which would be a deal breaker is the DSP has a slight delay "lip-sync doesn't correspond to video playback" is this true?


----------



## 314Rye

Tubewin said:


> It's here and I'm happy to say the first impressions are favorable. Have not tried NOS yet, but the OS is good. Have not had the ares II long enough to compare thoroughly, but I do prefer the sound signature of the 12th over the Enyo(Ares II). Happy listening everyone.
> 
> It definitely has more weight and punch to the sound. Definitely more "analogue" sounding. I love it! Exactly what I was looking for.


So if you do not need any more weight and punch to the sound you should be fine with the Enyo version? I think my ears could not handle any more punch to the sound, at least when using the Meze Empyrean headphones.


----------



## Baten

Gandah said:


> New to this thread and am kinda in the market for a new DAC heard so many good things about the Denafrips Ares ll, however, one thing I did hear which would be a deal breaker is the DSP has a slight delay "lip-sync doesn't correspond to video playback" is this true?


The microprocessor inside these DACs adds a noticeable delay, yes.


----------



## sajunky

Variable delay, it means it cannot be compensated.


----------



## keenerz (Nov 18, 2022)

yeah its due to the adaptive FIFO buffer they use, in my experience I haven't had that bad of a time with it, playing fps's and watching videos never really irritated me. However if I had to do video editing it would probably be annoying. Also I have almost always used a W4S Recovery in the chain and Iris DDC between my 2  computers


----------



## szore

Gandah said:


> New to this thread and am kinda in the market for a new DAC heard so many good things about the Denafrips Ares ll, however, one thing I did hear which would be a deal breaker is the DSP has a slight delay "lip-sync doesn't correspond to video playback" is this true?


I never noticed any kind of a delay at all.


----------



## Tubewin

314Rye said:


> So if you do not need any more weight and punch to the sound you should be fine with the Enyo version? I think my ears could not handle any more punch to the sound, at least when using the Meze Empyrean headphones.


if you don't need i2s, I'd stick with enyo.


----------



## simon740

Hello,

anyone try Topping M50 or S.M.S.L S-9 with Ares II?

regards,
Simon


----------



## NehPets

simon740 said:


> Hello,
> 
> anyone try Topping M50 or S.M.S.L S-9 with Ares II?
> 
> ...


I had the SMSL SD-9, which worked well with my Ares II, but I couldn't live with the user interface; the xDuoo X10T II has proven to be a better option for me.


----------



## szore

Just put the copper washer mod on...better clarity and dynamics!


----------



## George Hincapie

szore said:


> Just put the copper washer mod on...better clarity and dynamics!


I'm honestly not trying to be rude, but what? How does that even make a difference?


----------



## szore

George Hincapie said:


> I'm honestly not trying to be rude, but what? How does that even make a difference?


No one knows.


----------



## George Hincapie

szore said:


> No one knows.


But it works? Is it a noticable difference? And just a copper washer on the ground screw?


----------



## szore

George Hincapie said:


> But it works? Is it a noticable difference? And just a copper washer on the ground screw?


Well, I also instaled a copper spade on the end of my grounding tube, that's attatched to the ground pole on my balanced transformer... So those 2 things were instaled at same time.


----------



## keenerz

George Hincapie said:


> I'm honestly not trying to be rude, but what? How does that even make a difference?



According to a video I watched about such things the reason is the resonance of the cover and such. I never tried it but who knows.


----------



## George Hincapie

keenerz said:


> According to a video I watched about such things the reason is the resonance of the cover and such. I never tried it but who knows.


Interesting stuff! Thanks.


----------



## keenerz

Also, the reason I've never done that, in particular, is cause I do that Darko thing and put a barely fancy doorstopper on that kind of stuff, right now its on the Iris DDC lol.


----------



## dougms3

George Hincapie said:


> But it works? Is it a noticable difference? And just a copper washer on the ground screw?


Simple tweak thats really cheap.  

I've noticed that the ares is very sensitive to well everything.  If you put anything on top of it, it affects the sound, if you put anything too close to it, it affects the sound, if you don't compliment how nice it's hair looks today, it affects the sound.  

This is the guy that came up with it.  Just have to make sure you don't tighten it too much but enough so that theres some tension.  Makes it sound more open.


----------



## Baten

dougms3 said:


> I've noticed that the ares is very sensitive to well everything.  If you put anything on top of it, it affects the sound, if you put anything too close to it, it affects the sound, if you don't compliment how nice it's hair looks today, it affects the sound.


Be careful, people might take you serious


----------



## simon740 (Nov 22, 2022)

This dac worth every penny


----------



## borkenarrou (Nov 26, 2022)

How does the Ares II pairs with the Violectric amps like V280 or V550, both are said to be slightly warm neutral, does this smooth the sound bit too much.


----------



## simon740 (Nov 26, 2022)

borkenarrou said:


> How does the Ares II pairs with the Violectric amps like V280 or V550, both are said to be slightly warm neutral, does this smooth the sound bit too much.


To me Ares II is not too smooth. Depending on the system. With my Exposure integrated amp and Graham Audio speakers...the sound is neutral with a hint of warmth. A great combination.


----------



## Baten

simon740 said:


> To me Ares II is *not smooth.* Depending on the system. With my Exposure integrated amp and Graham Audio speakers...the sound is *neutral with a hint of warmth.*



So..... smooth?


----------



## simon740

Baten said:


> So..... smooth?


too smooth


----------



## Halam (Nov 27, 2022)

MacMan31 said:


> That stack looks awesome! I've long considered an Ares II to replace my Bifrost 2. But I've heard people say they sound very similar. I have the Echo Mk2 myself with the ZMF Aeolus. I'm looking at and Atticus right now for $1,200 used (Canadian). What tubes/risers are you using in that photo and what is the headphone cable?


Sorry for late reply, I was out of this forum for a while.
Rizer: simple Chinese Gold plated 5670 6n3 WE396A instead ECC88 6922 6DJ8 tube adapter from eBay 
Tube: 5670 RCA COMMAND SERIES NOS "O" getter halo 1968. 5670 family is good alternative to expensive 6922.
Headphone cable: Noir Hybrid HPC. Good quality inexpensive cables from Poland.


----------



## MacMan31

Halam said:


> Sorry for late reply, I was out of this forum for a while.
> Rizer: simple Chinese Gold plated 5670 6n3 WE396A instead ECC88 6922 6DJ8 tube adapter from eBay
> Tube: 5670 RCA COMMAND SERIES NOS "O" getter halo 1968. 5670 family is good alternative to expensive 6922.
> Headphone cable: Noir Hybrid HPC. Good quality inexpensive cables from Poland.



This headphone cable? https://forzaaudioworks.com/en/product.php?id_product=72 Seems those tubes can be found on eBay though I've never bought from there as I don't have PayPal.


----------



## Halam

MacMan31 said:


> This headphone cable? https://forzaaudioworks.com/en/product.php?id_product=72 Seems those tubes can be found on eBay though I've never bought from there as I don't have PayPal.


Exactly, good-looking, flexible and good sounding cable. There is a nice thread here on head-fi about forza cables.
I purchased these tubes In tubeworldexpress.


----------



## MacMan31

Halam said:


> Exactly, good-looking, flexible and good sounding cable. There is a nice thread here on head-fi about forza cables.
> I purchased these tubes In tubeworldexpress.



Thanks. I'm checking out that website now. I don't see the exact tubes you are using though.


----------



## Halam

MacMan31 said:


> Thanks. I'm checking out that website now. I don't see the exact tubes you are using though.


Yes, this 5670 6n3 WE396A tube family definitely worth the attention. They need adapters, but sound amazing.


----------



## MacMan31

Halam said:


> Yes, this 5670 6n3 WE396A tube family definitely worth the attention. They need adapters, but sound amazing.



So which one is it? https://tubeworldexpress.com/search?q=5670+6N3


----------



## Halam

MacMan31 said:


> So which one is it? https://tubeworldexpress.com/search?q=5670+6N3


Probably the older the better, matched and having good measurements)) There's thread here:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/5670-w396a-2c51-6n3p-tube-thread.680910/


----------



## George Hincapie

Halam said:


> Probably the older the better, matched and having good measurements)) There's thread here:
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/5670-w396a-2c51-6n3p-tube-thread.680910/



Forgive the newbie question, but how exactly are the tubes matched?


----------



## Halam

George Hincapie said:


> Forgive the newbie question, but how exactly are the tubes matched?


No problem, I'm newbie myself)) Measurements between 2 tubes must be as close as possible to have similar sounding..


----------



## George Hincapie

Halam said:


> No problem, I'm newbie myself)) Measurements between 2 tubes must be as close as possible to have similar sounding..


I wondered if that's how it's done. What is it they are measuring, do you know?


----------



## Halam

George Hincapie said:


> I wondered if that's how it's done. What is it they are measuring, do you know?


From tubeworldexpress:
Audio power tubes are tested for: good idle current, linear and evenly spaced plate curve traces, *transconductance (Gm) within specifications*, gas, shorts, leakages, and instabilities
Preamp tubes are tested for; (Gm) Transconductance, shorts, gas, leakages and manufacturers defects.


----------



## George Hincapie

Halam said:


> From tubeworldexpress:
> Audio power tubes are tested for: good idle current, linear and evenly spaced plate curve traces, *transconductance (Gm) within specifications*, gas, shorts, leakages, and instabilities
> Preamp tubes are tested for; (Gm) Transconductance, shorts, gas, leakages and manufacturers defects.



It's a completely new rabbit hole isn't it? Thanks very much.


----------



## keenerz

i highly recommend those WE396 JW 2C51 tubes. Currently my favorites


----------



## wickitom

Finally was able to get a good deal on the Ares II. What is a good headphone amp no more than $150? Eventually I will get something better. I will be using AKG K702 headphones. Thank you!


----------



## borkenarrou

I recently bought the Xduoo MT-604, its a tube hybrid so works well with both planar and dynamic headphones, but it's only balanced XLR in/out, below that there is the MT-602 which does have unbalanced out but it has less power.


----------



## Lolito2

roderickvd said:


> Did you buy from Vinshine? In the past Alvin sent out new versions even if you ordered a new one. And was very lenient with trading in for higher-end models.
> 
> Unaware of this new development, I am somewhat glad I sold my Ares II last month. Surely this will drop the prices of second-hand Ares II units.
> 
> Had I known about this anniversary edition, I might have gone for it. I2S and true NOS are great features. The USB looks upgraded too, on a separate board now? I wonder if I2S is still reclocked -- hopefully not.


true NOS? where did you got that info? are you sure? isn't it just a dedicated NOS/OS button?


----------



## MacMan31

So apparently this is now called the Enyo. https://www.denafrips.com/enyo


----------



## szore

Lolito2 said:


> true NOS? where did you got that info? are you sure? isn't it just a dedicated NOS/OS button?


I read somewhere its 'true' NOS now...


----------



## alvin1118

MacMan31 said:


> So apparently this is now called the Enyo. https://www.denafrips.com/enyo








Confused? We are here to help 

*Enyo VS Ares II*

Ares II is renamed to Enyo
They are identical inside-out

*Read more here: *link


----------



## Deleeh

alvin1118 said:


> Confused? We are here to help
> 
> *Enyo VS Ares II*
> 
> ...


Hello Alvin,

I've been watching your video.
I like that it has the same name with a slight change.

Technically it has also been well explained where the differences are.
And whether it is helpful with a DDC.

Most people are probably wondering if both units are the same sound-wise or if the 12 th is different from the Enyo?

On the subject of DDC, I also have a question: is it possible to connect other DDCs than the in-house DDC?
Singxer, Matrix Audio, Holo, for example, would be such candidates.

Some may also lack an explanation why the Ares Enyo as well as 12 th should remain on power (standby) when not in use.
Somehow there are also wild speculations about this.
Others worry that switching on/off could damage the Ares over time, etc...
It would be nice if you could shed some light on this.


----------



## sajunky (Dec 10, 2022)

alvin1118 said:


> *Enyo VS Ares II*
> 
> Ares II is renamed to Enyo
> They are identical inside-out


I thought it would be replaced. Any DAC in the price range above $500 should have I2S port, including the closest competitor, Audio GD R2R-11 Mk2.


----------



## Lolito2 (Dec 10, 2022)

sajunky said:


> I thought it would be replaced. Any DAC in the price range above $500 should have I2S port, including the closest competitor, Audio GD R2R-11 Mk2.


and/or even better, have some kind of DDC integrated, from usb. or a really good usb integration.


----------



## sajunky (Dec 11, 2022)

Lolito2 said:


> and/or even better, have some kind of DDC integrated, from usb. or a really good usb integration.


If you mean galvanic isolation on USB port, you are right. It reduce a need for a DDC. Ares 2 do not have, Ares 12 neither. R2R-11 do have optionally, it brings price to $690, but it is not the way is done in more expensive R-8Mk2 ($1700). Still DI-20 bring improvements. Dealing with ground loops is not easy task.

Without galvanic isolation on USB when your source is leaky (like a PC - most cases), it is a lottery. It may sound good, but in most cases it require further attention. In the end it cost more than adding galvanic isolator inside a DAC and is not so effective.


----------



## simon740

Lolito2 said:


> and/or even better, have some kind of DDC integrated, from usb. or a really good usb integration.


And what's wrong with Ares' usb implementation? It sounds great to me through the usb input.


----------



## Lolito2 (Dec 11, 2022)

simon740 said:


> And what's wrong with Ares' usb implementation? It sounds great to me through the usb input.


Well, it really depends on what "wrong" is considered. In my experience for example, if used a usb 3.0 cable on a usb 3.0 connection, it really sounds worse than following Sajunky advice of using a usb 2.0 hub, and connect the AresII there, using an old usb 2.0 cable. 

A DDC would solve that. Seems to me quite awkward that after spending a bit under 1000€ on a DAC, you still have to be doing all those perks, so i have to connect my dac to my usb 2.0 keyboard to make it sounds as good as it can sound. The difference is quite noticeable, much cleaner doing the usb 2.0 trick. Desk is full of stuff like that. I would therefore would like to have some kind of DDAC instead, like a whole integrated thing from a simple usb connection. I know this is asking too much, but sometimes I wonder if it would not be kind of the same to use a cheap decent delta sigma akm dac, with a cheap linear power supply, and then filter it all by a valve preamp or buffer or... My understanding is that Schiit for example, maybe their multibit dacs not as good as this, and almost the same price, but, they have a better usb implementation. Some people in this forum even recommended to cascade ddc's (LOL!!!), not sure if that was trolling (very probably) or not. These people advised to use a ddc, connected to another ddc and then connect that to the dac, for the best sound possible, LOL.

Just trying to look for improvements, very happy with it since they updated the firmware and works now flawlessly with my mac, before it was huge headaches which every reboot of the computer, or just every time the standby button was pressed or it got stuck the whole system. Quite a headache. Not anymore since they updated the firmware a lot.


----------



## simon740

Lolito2 said:


> Well, it really depends on what "wrong" is considered. In my experience for example, if used a usb 3.0 cable on a usb 3.0 connection, it really sounds worse than following Sajunky advice of using a usb 2.0 hub, and connect the AresII there, using an old usb 2.0 cable.
> 
> A DDC would solve that. Seems to me quite awkward that after spending a bit under 1000€ on a DAC, you still have to be doing all those perks, so i have to connect my dac to my usb 2.0 keyboard to make it sounds as good as it can sound. The difference is quite noticeable, much cleaner doing the usb 2.0 trick. Desk is full of stuff like that. I would therefore would like to have some kind of DDAC instead, like a whole integrated thing from a simple usb connection. I know this is asking too much, but sometimes I wonder if it would not be kind of the same to use a cheap decent delta sigma akm dac, with a cheap linear power supply, and then filter it all by a valve preamp or buffer or... My understanding is that Schiit for example, maybe their multibit dacs not as good as this, and almost the same price, but, they have a better usb implementation. Some people in this forum even recommended to cascade ddc's (LOL!!!), not sure if that was trolling (very probably) or not. These people advised to use a ddc, connected to another ddc and then connect that to the dac, for the best sound possible, LOL.
> 
> Just trying to look for improvements, very happy with it since they updated the firmware and works now flawlessly with my mac, before it was huge headaches which every reboot of the computer, or just every time the standby button was pressed or it got stuck the whole system. Quite a headache. Not anymore since they updated the firmware a lot.


If you have a good transport, than you don’t need DDC for Ares II.


----------



## Thetaburn

Lolito2 said:


> Well, it really depends on what "wrong" is considered. In my experience for example, if used a usb 3.0 cable on a usb 3.0 connection, it really sounds worse than following Sajunky advice of using a usb 2.0 hub, and connect the AresII there, using an old usb 2.0 cable.
> 
> A DDC would solve that. Seems to me quite awkward that after spending a bit under 1000€ on a DAC, you still have to be doing all those perks, so i have to connect my dac to my usb 2.0 keyboard to make it sounds as good as it can sound. The difference is quite noticeable, much cleaner doing the usb 2.0 trick. Desk is full of stuff like that. I would therefore would like to have some kind of DDAC instead, like a whole integrated thing from a simple usb connection. I know this is asking too much, but sometimes I wonder if it would not be kind of the same to use a cheap decent delta sigma akm dac, with a cheap linear power supply, and then filter it all by a valve preamp or buffer or... My understanding is that Schiit for example, maybe their multibit dacs not as good as this, and almost the same price, but, they have a better usb implementation. Some people in this forum even recommended to cascade ddc's (LOL!!!), not sure if that was trolling (very probably) or not. These people advised to use a ddc, connected to another ddc and then connect that to the dac, for the best sound possible, LOL.
> 
> Just trying to look for improvements, very happy with it since they updated the firmware and works now flawlessly with my mac, before it was huge headaches which every reboot of the computer, or just every time the standby button was pressed or it got stuck the whole system. Quite a headache. Not anymore since they updated the firmware a lot.


That's news to me.
So ideally the Ares 2 should be plugged into a USB 2.0 hub using a usb2.0 cable instead of directly into the PC?

I would need to purchase a usb 2.0 hub to test this out.....

Can you link the discussion thread on this topic?


----------



## YungOmbat

didnt know this came out so early


----------



## sajunky

Thetaburn said:


> That's news to me.
> So ideally the Ares 2 should be plugged into a USB 2.0 hub using a usb2.0 cable instead of directly into the PC?
> 
> I would need to purchase a usb 2.0 hub to test this out.....


To save searching, there are details. 

Yes, it is a common issue, not only related to Ares. A DAC use high speed USB 2.0 transfers. Super speed transfers use a separate pair of wires which is unused and floating (unterminated) on the receiver side. It cause interference and under certain condition can disturb transfers. 

Cable issue was Lolito's own discovery, for me it was to obvious. I just recommended to use USB 2.0 root port on the PC (if present), and/or USB 2.0 hub. 2.0 port is less noisy, 2.0 hub do not generate 3.0 frequency noise as well. BTW, it does reclocking (but not reclocking in audio means - it is buffering each frame and preparing a new frame for sending, based on its own clock,  called Transaction Translator). Only important on longer cable runs.

If a hub is attached to the external power supply, it perform additional function, ground loops redirection (the same as iDefender).

An additional comment on using 2.0 hub. From the ground loops redirection perspective the best is to use a DAC as the only one device on the hub. If other devices are attached, it has to be a hub with MTT (Multi Transaction Translator) feature. It prevents slower devices (like keyboard or mouse) from degrading uplink to a full speed or even to low speed. It also prevents from enumeration errors. If you remember how USB 1.1 required to load drivers separately when plugging to a different port, you know what I mean.


----------



## sajunky (Dec 12, 2022)

Duplicated


----------



## Lolito2

simon740 said:


> If you have a good transport, than you don’t need DDC for Ares II.


my transport is a 27" iMac with a 5k display, Audirvana 3.5, and quite a few of other devices connected. I do bot want to use a separate streamer or transport, I use my phone with the Audirvana app. Sounds great like this, only complaint is the whole usb cable to keyboard then to computer... would prefer a cleaner desktop.


----------



## Thetaburn

sajunky said:


> To save searching, there are details.
> 
> Yes, it is a common issue, not only related to Ares. A DAC use high speed USB 2.0 transfers. Super speed transfers use a separate pair of wires which is unused and floating (unterminated) on the receiver side. It cause interference and under certain condition can disturb transfers.
> 
> ...


If I use a IFI iDefender with the Ares 2, does the iDefender need external power to work properly?


----------



## sajunky

Thetaburn said:


> If I use a IFI iDefender with the Ares 2, does the iDefender need external power to work properly?


Yip. Defender is the most effective when connected to the external power supply. In most cases... so be prepared for additional expense. Some smart users defeat purpose by plugging idefender power cable to another port on PC, iFi warns against. 

Ground loop redirector must be wired properly. If it is a self powered 2.0 hub, a cable between PC and a hub must be short, using thick wires (not a thick plastic). It must be, a plain cable (sans moulded ferrites or ferrite clamps). Idefender will be plugged directly to a PC port. Power supply is plugged on the extension box close to the PC and a monitor.

A cable from redirector to a DAC can use thin wires (even better), but must have good shielding and should have ferrite chokes. 

In such arrangement ground loops from PC will find easier way, closing loop on the redirector's power supply. This is a purpose, no magic.


----------



## Thetaburn

sajunky said:


> Yip. Defender is the most effective when connected to the external power supply. In most cases... so be prepared for additional expense. Some smart users defeat purpose by plugging idefender power cable to another port on PC, iFi warns against.
> 
> Ground loop redirector must be wired properly. If it is a self powered 2.0 hub, a cable between PC and a hub must be short, using thick wires (not a thick plastic). It must be, a plain cable (sans moulded ferrites or ferrite clamps). Idefender will be plugged directly to a PC port. Power supply is plugged on the extension box close to the PC and a monitor.
> 
> ...


This should be in a FAQ or sticky section.

I had the Ares 2 plugged into the back of the PC into a usb 2.0 port. The sound was alright. Tried the usb 3.0 and 3.1 port, sound was about the same.

Today, plugged it into my keyboards usb 2.0 with a IFI idefender with an external power ( 5v 2a phone charger ) on the same power outlet as the Ares 2 dac.

Noticable improvement in sound seperation.

Thanks for the advice.

Since I am using a USB input, should I still be interested in getting a Douk Audio U2 pro as mentioned in this forum?


----------



## Lolito2

how is the improvement with the douk u2? can it be connected to regular usb 3.0 hub with hard drives and stuff?? thanks!!


----------



## killthrash

Anyone have experience with the Ares II and gaming? I heard you can't really use it because of the R2R latency?


----------



## The Hawk

killthrash said:


> Anyone have experience with the Ares II and gaming? I heard you can't really use it because of the R2R latency?


Can’t speak to experience but I’ve read it numerous times from various users that gaming and the Ares II don’t jive well as it has a latency that can vary between 40-90ms.


----------



## killthrash

The Hawk said:


> Can’t speak to experience but I’ve read it numerous times from various users that gaming and the Ares II don’t jive well as it has a latency that can vary between 40-90ms.


I've heard that as well.


----------



## PopZeus

Not all R-2R DACs have poor latency. Just a quirk with Denafrips.


----------



## killthrash

PopZeus said:


> Not all R-2R DACs have poor latency. Just a quirk with Denafrips.


That's the info I was looking for! Appreciate it. Would love to try a decent R2R dac, but would be using it for movies and games as well.


----------



## Terozzzz

Just adjust the latency to 2.1ms or something like that. Also use 16bit 44.1hz output. Not some 24 384lhz.


----------



## keenerz

The latency has nothing to do with their R2R ladder its just their FPGA FIFO Buffer implementation. It nice that reduces the effects of Jitter and stuff but adds a very little bit of delay to everything that comes into it. tbh I never really had a big issue with it but if you're sensitive to that type of thing it will by irritating.


----------



## killthrash

keenerz said:


> The latency has nothing to do with their R2R ladder its just their FPGA FIFO Buffer implementation. It nice that reduces the effects of Jitter and stuff but adds a very little bit of delay to everything that comes into it. tbh I never really had a big issue with it but if you're sensitive to that type of thing it will by irritating.


Appreciate the info. Is this specific to the Ares II or would a higher-end Denafrips model have the same latency?


----------



## keenerz

killthrash said:


> Appreciate the info. Is this specific to the Ares II or would a higher-end Denafrips model have the same latency?



From what I know the Pontus II does have a similar issue, I'm not sure about any of the other higher-up models, however, but if their FIFO buffer implementation is the same its possible. Probably a question Alvin on Vinshine could answer if you wanted to really know.


----------



## sajunky (Dec 16, 2022)

killthrash said:


> Appreciate the info. Is this specific to the Ares II or would a higher-end Denafrips model have the same latency?


Overheard the same about higher models. Latency is variable due to use circular buffer, so it cannot be compensated for watching movies.

A minimum latency will be with R2R-11 from Audio GD. No FPGA, no digital processing, so latency is as low as it reguire to assembly data stream from USB transfers. But similar is achieved with higher models like R-1, R-8 or R-7 when playing in NOS mode, as there is no processing and only a small buffer is deployed on the Amanero receiver, like in R2R-11.


----------



## szore

sajunky said:


> Overheard the same avout higher models. Latency is variable due to use circular buffer, so it cannot be compensated for watching movies.
> 
> A minimum latency will be with R2R-11 from Audio GD. No FPGA, no digital processing, so latency is as low as it reguire to assembly data stream from USB transfers. But similar is achieved with higher models like R-1, R-8 or R-7 when playing in NOS mode, as there is no processing and only a small buffer is deployed on the Amanero receiver, like in R2R-11.


I never had any latency issues at all.... gaming, movies or anything else...I think it's just people spinning their wheels...


----------



## keenerz

I dunno I know some people in home theater space who are super sensitive to like audio sync enough to like measure it out to check that the latency from where they are sitting from the speakers is timed out perfectly. So feel like anythings possible haha.


----------



## szore

keenerz said:


> I dunno I know some people in home theater space who are super sensitive to like audio sync enough to like measure it out to check that the latency from where they are sitting from the speakers is timed out perfectly. So feel like anythings possible haha.


I'm not a freak with a $200,000 home system measuring latency with high tech apparatus. I'm saying when I watch movies or play America's Army I'm fine.


----------



## keenerz

szore said:


> I'm not a freak with a $200,000 home system measuring latency with high tech apparatus. I'm saying when I watch movies or play America's Army I'm fine.


oh I agree with you, I honestly never had an issue personally but everyone's different so for people who know they are that sensitive should beware is all


----------



## Thetaburn

killthrash said:


> Anyone have experience with the Ares II and gaming? I heard you can't really use it because of the R2R latency?


As a causal gamer ( CoD mw2 ).
Using 24 bit, 44.1k, there isnt noticable lag that would break immersion or be a dealbreaker. 
Movies and YouTube are fine as well.

I am not super nit picky though.


----------



## Terozzzz

keenerz said:


> The latency has nothing to do with their R2R ladder its just their FPGA FIFO Buffer implementation. It nice that reduces the effects of Jitter and stuff but adds a very little bit of delay to everything that comes into it. tbh I never really had a big issue with it but if you're sensitive to that type of thing it will by irritating.


It definetly has. If you got latency at normal it has a lot of lag in sound and specially if you got 24bit 192khz its even worse. Just try it before come here guns blazing.


----------



## szore

keenerz said:


> oh I agree with you, I honestly never had an issue personally but everyone's different so for people who know they are that sensitive should beware is all


Yeah, I'm just being grumpy!


----------



## szore

IDK, I love my Ares II. I'm thinking of upgrading to the PontiusII but I'm cash light.


----------



## George Hincapie

szore said:


> IDK, I love my Ares II. I'm thinking of upgrading to the PontiusII but I'm cash light.


I have just done exactly that. Being absolutely honest, the Pontus II *is* better than the Ares II, but it is *not* a night and day difference. The Ares is just ridiculously good for the money. I should have gone for the Venus or T+.


----------



## szore

George Hincapie said:


> I have just done exactly that. Being absolutely honest, the Pontus II *is* better than the Ares II, but it is *not* a night and day difference. The Ares is just ridiculously good for the money. I should have gone for the Venus or T+.


Cool, maybe I'll stay put then...


----------



## George Hincapie

szore said:


> Cool, maybe I'll stay put then...


Where you are is a good place Brother.


----------



## szore

George Hincapie said:


> Where you are is a good place Brother.


Honestly I'm shocked at how good this EQ is...I've been vehemently anti EQ for 35 years, I got the Lokius as a goof and I'm in love with this thing!


----------



## George Hincapie

szore said:


> Honestly I'm shocked at how good this EQ is...I've been vehemently anti EQ for 35 years, I got the Lokius as a goof and I'm in love with this thing!


How do you know how to set it? EQ is a mystery to me 🤣


----------



## szore (Dec 15, 2022)

George Hincapie said:


> How do you know how to set it? EQ is a mystery to me 🤣


That's the beauty of it, just twist knobs till it sounds good! easy peasy! it's only +/- 6dB (12dB total) so it's rather mild and it sounds terrific. Plus it can always be shunted by flicking a switch.


----------



## sajunky

Terozzzz said:


> It definetly has. If you got latency at normal it has a lot of lag in sound and specially if you got 24bit 192khz its even worse. Just try it before come here guns blazing.


I agree latency is critical issue for gaming, but @keenerz suggests it might be due to R2R decoding. It is not, it is a feature of Denafrips implementation.

I understand why Denafrips use very long buffers, but why these buffers are not switched off on the USB connection, it is a complete mystery. I would say, it is a negligence. During USB asynchronous transfer, data sending is coordinated by the receiver, synchronised by a local clock. With a buffer for only few frames data can be converted to the continuous stream without any added jitter or serious interruptions. That amount for a latency no more than one or two milisecond. If you get more, it is wrong.


----------



## keenerz (Dec 16, 2022)

sajunky said:


> I agree latency is critical issue for gaming, but @keenerz suggests it might be due to R2R decoding. It is not, it is a feature of Denafrips implementation.
> 
> I understand why Denafrips use very long buffers, but why these buffers are not switched off on the USB connection, it is a complete mystery. I would say, it is a negligence. During USB asynchronous transfer, data sending is coordinated by the receiver, synchronised by a local clock. With a buffer for only few frames data can be converted to the continuous stream without any added jitter or serious interruptions. That amount for a latency no more than one or two milisecond. If you get more, it is wrong.



I pretty much said it was the digital fifo buffer i don’t know why people are interpreting that i said it was the R2R ladder. either y'all are misreading what I wrote or willfully misunderstanding just to argue for sake of arguing.



Terozzzz said:


> It definetly has. If you got latency at normal it has a lot of lag in sound and specially if you got 24bit 192khz its even worse. Just try it before come here guns blazing.


lol this confuses me cause I said it has latency due to the FIFO buffer not the r2r ladder. So I'm not sure if I'm coming in "guns blazing" I'm literally just stating the fact.


----------



## simon740

Hello,

How do you feel about DSD music on the Ares II? I think PCM suits me better.

regards,
Simon


----------



## Chodi

simon740 said:


> Hello,
> 
> How do you feel about DSD music on the Ares II? I think PCM suits me better.
> 
> ...


Depends on the software you are using, the musical genre you like and your personal preference.


----------



## simon740

Chodi said:


> Depends on the software you are using, the musical genre you like and your personal preference.


Im using UAPP on my Phone and usb out to Ares II. Jazz, Blues, acoustical music...


----------



## Lolito2

simon740 said:


> Hello,
> 
> How do you feel about DSD music on the Ares II? I think PCM suits me better.
> 
> ...


DSD sounds great on it. it is properly mastered and not just a blown up recording from a cd... That being said, dsd allows for NO digital eq, so for many setups which need digital eq, it can not be done. just a dsd problem, not related to the ares2 at all. But there is my 2 cents. great transients with dsd, but doesnt allow digital eq for say audeze cans profile, or your speaker eq profile, or required room eq... for say depeche mode dsd from sacd, it sounds amazing, or for brother in arms latest remaster or...


----------



## sajunky

simon740 said:


> Hello,
> 
> How do you feel about DSD music on the Ares II? I think PCM suits me better.
> 
> ...


More similar on DSD to other R2R DACs than when playing PCM, i.e. Audio GD PCM sound is very dynamic, punchy, involving, putting in chair. DSD has some properties what you like on Ares: more laid back, smooth, relaxed.


----------



## ku1185

szore said:


> I never had any latency issues at all.... gaming, movies or anything else...I think it's just people spinning their wheels...



I thought gaming could be disorienting, and video could be annoying at times. Not impossible to use, particularly since the lag comes and goes randomly, but it was noticeable and it bothered me.


----------



## Lolito2

There is certainly a lip sync delay when watching a conversation video, or movie. Certainly not a good tool for editing video, but it's very minimal, I don't mind it. Some video players have video delay adjustment option. For video games, not the best for 1st person shooters via lan, I guess.


----------



## NehPets

Does the Ares II sound significantly better in a speaker system than it does in a headphone system?


----------



## szore

Lolito2 said:


> There is certainly a lip sync delay when watching a conversation video, or movie. Certainly not a good tool for editing video, but it's very minimal, I don't mind it. Some video players have video delay adjustment option. For video games, not the best for 1st person shooters via lan, I guess.


Not for me😎


----------



## ku1185 (Dec 23, 2022)

Lolito2 said:


> There is certainly a lip sync delay when watching a conversation video, or movie. Certainly not a good tool for editing video, but it's very minimal, I don't mind it. Some video players have video delay adjustment option. For video games, not the best for 1st person shooters via lan, I guess.



The problem with using video delay is that the latency on Ares II comes and goes. Sometimes just pausing/playing, sometimes changing tracks, or even flipping between the filters on the Ares II. Sometimes the latency is not noticeable, sometimes barely noticeable, sometimes very noticeable.

Most of my insights into the latency was by connecting Ares II and another DAC (el dac ii and r2r-11mk2) both to Soloist 3xp. Both dacs fed via DDC outputting simultaneously. I fliped between the DACs by switching between inputs using 3xp's remote. I would notice that sometimes there would be no break in the music and other times it would sound like it's stuttering/skipping.

As much as I love the Ares II's sound, I didn't think it was ideal for my desktop. Certainly tolerable if I was just watching random youtube videos, but for gaming or movies, it often resulted in a less-than-ideal experience.


----------



## Nada

NehPets said:


> Does the Ares II sound significantly better in a speaker system than it does in a headphone system?


Depends on the system. It has a rich timbre and good imaging. Its suitable for speakers and headphones with systems where its timbrel colour is appreciated. Its one of the best value DACs around new, let alone used.  Being nuanced, its a DAC that can keep giving.

Its an idiosyncratic DAC and 
- not for NOS lovers
- should only have one output active
- arguably best with high impedance pre/amps
- perhaps best run via  USB with an Intona or otherwise a  cheap powered USB 2.0 hub running on a 5V battery at x32 upsampling in its "NOS" (which is 32x upsampling) setting


----------



## ku1185 (Dec 23, 2022)

Nada said:


> Depends on the system. It has a rich timbre and good imaging. Its suitable for speakers and headphones with systems where its timbrel colour is appreciated. Its one of the best value DACs around new, let alone used.  Being nuanced, its a DAC that can keep giving.
> 
> Its an idiosyncratic DAC and
> - not for NOS lovers
> ...



👍

I also liked it best via USB over coax or optical. I only had 1 other NOS DAC but Ares II doesn't sound quite as full bodied or have quite that "presence" as the r2r-11mk2.
But it is indeed a _beautifully_ detailed and musical DAC. Brings out this captivating sense of realism in a lot of music. Dynamics can feel a little bit lightweight at times and the staging occasionally felt a little strange or uncanny to me ears, but if I were to try to strip my personal preferences and look at it objectively, it is the best sounding DAC I've owned by a fair margin.


----------



## Nada

ku1185 said:


> Ares II doesn't sound quite as full bodied or have quite that "presence" as the r2r-11mk


I see that Audio-gd is both an R2R DAC and headamp http://www.audio-gd.com/R2R/R11MK2/R11mk2EN_Specs.htm  so it looks like great value compared to even the Ares.

I havent heard it so wonder if you can fill me in on in compared to the Ares that many of us know.

Did you try the Audio-gd just as a DAC output (without the headamp) to compare it with the Ares?

What did you think of the headamp out of the R2R-11 mk2?  Thanks!


----------



## szore

AresII and Jotunheim2...all you need! 😎


----------



## whitedragem

JerryLeeds said:


> All I know is that I’m enjoying the sound from my 2 channel setup .. it is sounding great with the Ares 12th … though I have a Schiit lokius with the two lower frequency dials on the plus side…
> 
> I don’t qualify as an audiophile… I just want to enjoy my music
> 
> ...


When I wanted to start playing with upsampling, having seen a Note20 phone on clearance at a local Office Supplies store (at 1/3rd its New cost), I thought I’d TRY an experiment that had been on my mind for awhile.
My motivations were towards upsampling to DSD (from redbook PCM), depending on the DAC to be used, there are benefits to doing this (Denafrips doesn’t demand this at all), but the same process I was using ALSO allows upsampling to high sampling rate PCM…
So I installed from the android store (Play store) some software called (Onkyo) HF Player.
The licensed version of HF Player allows upsampling to high quality DSD (5.6Mhz) (as well as 768khz PCM I believe); and I knew that pushing the ‘higher conversion rate’ DSD would hit the processor- the whole point of the test was to see if low powered ARM CPUs had ‘enough grunt’ to do the trick and IF THEY WOULD COOK THEMSELVES doing so (No- runs cool, and has ‘long’ battery life); so - CPUs have evolved enough that a recent ARM CPU as found in modern phones, can do ‘on the fly’ conversion/upscaling…

Now- to be fair- that Android phone was a nightmare to configure to get it to sound ‘equal’ to a basic DAP (Digital Audio Player -aka ‘dedicated’ audio device)- if I tweaked approaching 30 settings in the Android OS, I could strip the phone back to being a basic ‘dedicated’ computer, that did an ‘acceptible’ job as a digital transport.. 
but- 
for my testing it was enough- showed me that a modern CPU could do the transform function ‘easily’, and I invested into a FiiO M11+ music player (mostly due to the the dual ‘femto second clocks’ and super clever dedicated power optmisation and ‘shiedling’/isolation etc.
The FiiO M11+ (DAP) smokes a flagship phone as a dedicated transport, but many would argue that ‘all transports are equal’, so lets just accept that some android software (Onkyo) HF Player, can ‘do a trick’, and that this trick might be worth implementing..
(I only had to buy the software once and I use on a huge range of devices)

So, a phone has ‘no fans’ (runs quiet) and CAN DO upsampling trickery.
I did find that locking the upsampling to ‘a neat multiple’ of the source sampling rate, sounded akin to not upsampled audio source (ie it was doing the trick right, and ‘somewhat cleanly’)
The Android phone test was enough for me to check that I could find improvements in my audio when coming from different sources (ie Apple Music from the FiiO M11+ is perfect and vastly better than Apple Music (software) interfaces via webpages (recommended from Windows PCs as I think it allows a higher quality AAC stream (gives another khz or so in the upper frequencies vs AAC files from ‘regular’ Apple Music software on PC?), and the webbrowser version ‘sips power’ whilst giving access to ‘lossless’ etc..
Anyhow as great as having nice electronics do dedicated tricks, some ‘software’ can go _a long way_.
(if you use a crappy D/S DAC that favours DSD (ie ‘cheap PCM filters’), then DSD upconversion is ‘a thing’ you may wish to consider in the interim (until ye find a nice R2R!?))

Onkyo HF Player is android software that does ‘on the fly’ DSD conversion AND high sampling rate PCM.. It may allow some testing for readers here…(?)



NehPets said:


> Does the Ares II sound significantly better in a speaker system than it does in a headphone system?



Depends on systems (great rhetorical question though)..

Sure it can open up a system held back ,and it scales with better associated equipment.
Mostly a headphone rig costs a small portion of the money required by an ‘equivalent sound quality’ hifi (speakers) rig.

Having heard a Denafrips on a reference hifi rig, I’d say, many headphone listeners might not know just how great these DACs are.
Whilst I have some flagship headphones that have detail for miles, and proper kit to feed them, some traits I am looking for, when doing upstream/front end testing, is not easily revealed on headphones, and ‘a few moments’ of hearing said kit on ‘the nice DEN setup’ is hyper revealing.

In fact when I was trying to figure the sonic benefits (if any) of an iFi Diablo over a Chord Hugo, I had given a week/ten days of ‘critical/focused’ headphone listening that ‘less than 30 seconds’ on the Den hifi rig, the child had made observations in ‘30 seconds’ that had taken me ‘well over a week’ to discern ‘via headphones’ (>3k pricepoint headphones too)

Everything can be simplified if we consider ‘pricepoints’ (and assume well integrated systems/‘synergy’), and ‘yes’ some top tier kit (either headphones or hifi) can reveal nuances that ‘lesser kit’ may miss.. but that kit will resolve more on better setups.
Whether YOUR hifi setup is better than the equivalency of your ‘head-fi’ rig; only you would know…
I find ‘by modern world pricepoints’ I can not afford great (modern) two channel kit. 
But if I am willing to build a two channel HiFi rig using SOME second hand parts, for $5k-$10 I can build a ‘reference’ rig that would hold its own’ nicely against ‘higher pricepoints’ (not THE BEST in the world, sure,. but can suggest, or ‘approximate’ to what SOME PEOPLE achieve with infinite budgets..- albeit with a much lower WAF (Wife Acceptance Factor) as the aesthetics of a ‘hodge podge’ setup might not always match (I have champagne gold coloured power amp in an ‘all black’ surround rig, or a Proceed AVP2 doesn’t look like anything else that might go in the ‘dedicated’ two channel setup..)
Forgoing looks, I can get a lot of bang/buck in the second hand market, sure…

Buying new.. I think it would be hard to beat a $5k headphone rig with a hifi rig costing south of $20k
In a small environment (not needing much power), I suppose some Dynaudio bookshelf speakers (on sale) might allow a ‘high quality’ two channel rig that comes in well under $15k total, but would be hard for a $10k hifi rig to equal ‘great’ headfi stacks.

Hence ‘Head-fi’ being such a great hobby.
We don’t have to burden housemates and family with our (loud) music, and we get the best ROI (return on investment) for bang/buck ratio.

TL: DR Denafrips DAC scales ‘very well’ into great hifi rigs. (and great HiFi rigs easily reveal (with some recordings) why a decent ladder DAC is worth owning…


----------



## neyurt

Ares II doesn't get a good reivew on ASR.  Is it because R2R usually doesn't measure well comparing to chip-based DAC?


----------



## neyurt

Nice pics of the unit. Love the way that transformer look.


----------



## ku1185 (Dec 23, 2022)

Nada said:


> I see that Audio-gd is both an R2R DAC and headamp http://www.audio-gd.com/R2R/R11MK2/R11mk2EN_Specs.htm  so it looks like great value compared to even the Ares.
> 
> I havent heard it so wonder if you can fill me in on in compared to the Ares that many of us know.
> 
> ...



I got it because I was curious what NOS sounded like after trying the filter on Ares II and preferring it over the OS filters. Also thought it might be a good opportunity to downsize by getting dac/amp combo, as I was ready to move on from the Soloist 3xp (sounds great, but user experience left me wanting).

Everything on the r2r-11mk2 sounds a little more forward and "present" compared to the more laid-back presentation on the Ares II. r2r-11mk2, while "darker," sounds more neutral to my ears than the Ares II which felt like a "flavor" DAC in my mind. There's a fuller, weightier, smoother tone, and more authoritative. IMO, the dynamics stand out to me the most as it just feel more "right" to me which I can't say about my experiences with the Ares II (too soft) or BF2 (too much). However, it's lacking in detail and stage compared to Ares II . Doesn't sound blatantly bad, just feels a little vague and can start feeling a little "stuffy" at times, leaving me wanting for some more airiness or something. Ares II is far more resolving and brings more spatial sounds, like reverberations, resonances, room sounds, microdynamics, etc. Still, I find it to be very musical and perhaps better suited for casual listening at my desk. Overall, it kinda reminds me a bit of OG AKM Topping E30, but actually enjoyable and very much so  .

Another negative of the r2r-11mk2 is that I find it to quickly sounding somewhat unpleasant at louder volumes (~85db+), whereas I thought the Ares II just sounded better the louder it got (at least to the point I could tolerate for a little while).

The headamp, I'm more mixed on. Vaguely reminds me of the slightly "in your face" presentation of Jot2's balanced output in that it tends to push things forward and flatten things out just a little bit. Never feels congested but does feel a little... cozy? cramped? think separation and stage depth suffers a little bit compared to Piety, El Amp II, and Soloist 3xp, but it also doesn't sound as edgy or sharp as I remember the Jot2 sounding (might just be the DAC part though). Again, dynamics shine on this amp methinks. I really like it driving the HD660s, DT770s, but would prefer another amp for the LCD-X 2021.



neyurt said:


> Ares II doesn't get a good reivew on ASR.  Is it because R2R usually doesn't measure well comparing to chip-based DAC?



I think it's because you're not allowed to use ears over there. But in all seriousness, probably because it doesn't measure as well as some of the less expensive D/S DACs.


----------



## neyurt

The folks over at ASR definitely are more on the critical side of things, but it's hard to argue against using measurements to justify a product's worth.


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## ku1185 (Dec 23, 2022)

neyurt said:


> The folks over at ASR definitely are more on the critical side of things, but it's hard to argue against using measurements to justify a product's worth.


I prefer to evaluate gear based on my enjoyment of its use as intended. I've found (rather painfully) that measurements and my enjoyment don't always correlate.


----------



## neyurt

ku1185 said:


> I prefer to evaluate gear based on my enjoyment of its use as intended. I've found measurements and my enjoyment don't always correlate. (e.g., THX 789, Topping L30/E30I


I don't disagree with this sentiment tbh. Gears that are clinical are often fatique to listen to.  Warmed added by analog distortion (small amount) are often pleasant to the ears, which obviously disagree with "measurements".


----------



## whitedragem (Dec 23, 2022)

neyurt said:


> Ares II doesn't get a good reivew on ASR.  Is it because R2R usually doesn't measure well comparing to chip-based DAC?


It is a multifaceted problem where the issue is simply ‘educate the consumer’.
Amir noted going back about eight years ago, when the first example of ‘tuned for spec sheet’ equipment floated across his workbench, that ‘ASR may have created a ‘monster’.

heck camera industry made the error of heavily mentioning ‘megapixel’ when launching new models, and _made it look like megapixel mattered MOST_ (not true at all, lens and processing are equally important, and ‘with regards to megapixel’, a 4mp fovean sensor is ~ 16mp xtrans sensor ~ 24mp CMOS sensor equivalent- naturally the market is filled with high number CMOS sensors as ‘the numbers LOOK more impressive’ and “yellow belt consumers can READ a spec sheet”..)
The camera industry soon realised they had made a beast that would take them down.. (the electronic companies started to make ‘technically capable’ (yet aesthetically useless) cameras).
many folded knowing that consumers would be ‘too hard to educate’.

That is what has happened with hifi.
We can read spec sheets, so ‘spec sheet warefare’ allows us to feel we are using our education to aid in making a purchase (helps makes us feel good in the process)
the problem is the same as Amir identified nearly a decade ago-
once manufacturers learn to tailor for the ‘tests’, they can build parts that look impressive on paper but may not be..
The best ‘easy’ example that comes to mind in a parallel field (so we don’t all get our knickers in a twist defending our recent ‘hifi’ purchases) is Samsung Solid State drives.
For years they would beat Intel drives ‘at the spec sheet level’ (tailored to perform the technical tests better), and yet in the ‘real world’ the Intel drives, that were optimised for situations users would actually find themselves in, would easily trump the ‘better spec’d’ Samsung parts.
Samsung are one of those ‘masters of spec sheet manipulation’ companies.. (they made this apart of their business model years ago)

With regards to Amirs’ recognition of ‘a manufacturer having realised his testing process’, could ‘tailor a product’ to suit. In that ‘first’ recognition of a piece of kit on his test bench that was objectively worse for targetting specs’ that didn’t necessarily make it a better product, he, and the thread that followed made quips about how their webpage may have been responsible for ‘shaping the market’.

Spin on a decade and ‘just about all amplification stages’ are feedback designs (better benchmark results) etc.. (yet may impact audio negatively)

When a manufacturer tailors for ‘audio’ reproduction, they typically give up ‘absolute’ benchmarking status.
Sadly the nature that is Ladder DACs, a lot of electronics can get in the way of ‘perfect benchmarking’, and so on the ‘spec sheet’ level of warefare, they are ‘not very good’.
The good news is that our head and hearts doesn’t actually net much from the numbers, so much as we DO GET from the reality of ‘the product as a whole’.

A denefrips Ares Enyo/12th _smokes_ the equivalent pricepoint multibit and D/S offerings, typically.. especially when up against ‘fly by night products’ that exist for spec sheet warefare.
Sabre chips are a great example of DAC chips that were tailor made from the ground up to ‘do well with benchmarking’, and yet when we look at how difficult it was to implement the early designs and get great results from them (they were interference prone beasts that could easily be ‘tripped up’), but for all their difficulty to implement (and cost), they DID yield some great numbers. (and most buying them are not Conductors with ear training who know that not all recreated soundwaves are ‘equal’)
I have recently posted on headfi, referring to a six moons interview with a Burson engineer, who informed of why they chose the Sabre chip over a Wolfson 8741 (the other ‘most expensive’ single chip option), and they found the eight channel ESS9018 benchmarked better in channels paired mode (the typical implementation coming to market by a few hifi companies), but that even though it benchmarked worse as a two channel (non dual diff config) DAC (I am guessing this leaves parts of the chip not engaged), the actual audio quality output was ‘more musical’.

Whether a device is built from ground up to benchmark well (ie a Topping D90), or perform well (musical DACs) is a decision that the designer/engineer makes.
If you are an average hifi company (or SSD maker or camera maker)- you target spec sheet absolutes and let uninformed consumers THINK their spec sheet sales data is ‘all that’.. 
If you have the chops to stand on your own two feet, and let your skill and talents ‘sell’; then you can forgo spec sheet warfare and ‘let people enjoy’ a nice product.

Sadly the world has many more spec sheet researchers (as Amir noted) that will be misled by ‘better benchmarking’ and there is no short/easy answer.

Teach a man to fish?
Sure- educate the consumer.. 
Science has helped audio- sure… but I wouldn’t let a spec sheet determine my next hifi purchase (or generate my ‘short list’)
Every time I have upgraded my hifi to ‘lesser spec sheet’ capability (but from higher price points/‘equipment tiers’) I have netted vastly more _musical_ results.

Having a Denafrips Ares is ‘the top of shortlist’ for ‘budget DACs’ -
it is near equal priced to a Topping D90
The Topping D90 is probably the worst (dedicated) DAC in my house.. (certainly NOT by the spec sheet, which indicates it is ‘the best’)
Fast switching vs an iFi Diablo (Diablo wins), or a Burson V2+ (easily), the D90 often doesn’t reveal anything empirically worse.. (sometimes a collapsed soundstage depth makes a recording sound ‘funny’ vs EVERY OTHER DAC I have ever heard)..
but on great recordings…

hmmm

Amusingly- I am running my (Denafrips owning’) mates old DAC, an Audio-Gd nfb 3.1 (possibly AudioGds WORST EVER DAC) (I put internal photos up a couple of days ago here on headfi; https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/audio-gd-nfb-2-and-nfb-3.13105/reviews )

interestingly the NFB in the DAC parts product name (NFB 3.1) stands for ‘non feedback’ design- it has many rails of class A and outputs ‘proper’ audio… (dynamically so, and ‘very revealing’)(with actual soundstage depth too)… 

Would I choose a ten year old DAC using outdated topology over a ‘flavour of the moment’ piece of ‘fad-fi’?

Yes.
Absolutely.
IIS, and balanced and … all these things that become ‘flavour of the moment’ to push us ‘ever forwards’ (generally finding synergy with other equally designed/ similarly built parts) do not help anyone except ‘second hand market’ dwellers who can score high quality parts for peanuts.

I’d judge equipment, against my scientific mind, by pricepoint and weight, and then brand, and then listening output/spec sheet.. 
giving least weight in my comparison to ‘spec sheet’ (and more weighing to ‘weight’).

Re: a Denafrips benchmarking poorly- that is the nature of the beast for components in a R2R design.
is it an issue.. Not at all. (nor is it something you’d be able to notice)

edited to add a hyperlink to ‘photos’


----------



## Lolito2

NehPets said:


> Does the Ares II sound significantly better in a speaker system than it does in a headphone system?


no


----------



## szore

neyurt said:


> The folks over at ASR definitely are more on the critical side of things, but it's hard to argue against using measurements to justify a product's worth.


o nonsense. measurements mean dik.


----------



## Lolito2

neyurt said:


> The folks over at ASR definitely are more on the critical side of things, but it's hard to argue against using measurements to justify a product's worth.


they are a secta, like flatlanders but using science, that's the funny part


----------



## sajunky (Dec 25, 2022)

ku1185 said:


> I got it because I was curious what NOS sounded like after trying the filter on Ares II and preferring it over the OS filters. Also thought it might be a good opportunity to downsize by getting dac/amp combo, as I was ready to move on from the Soloist 3xp (sounds great, but user experience left me wanting).
> 
> Everything on the r2r-11mk2 sounds a little more forward and "present" compared to the more laid-back presentation on the Ares II. r2r-11mk2, while "darker," sounds more neutral to my ears than the Ares II which felt like a "flavor" DAC in my mind. There's a fuller, weightier, smoother tone, and more authoritative. IMO, the dynamics stand out to me the most as it just feel more "right" to me which I can't say about my experiences with the Ares II (too soft) or BF2 (too much). However, it's lacking in detail and stage compared to Ares II . Doesn't sound blatantly bad, just feels a little vague and can start feeling a little "stuffy" at times, leaving me wanting for some more airiness or something. Ares II is far more resolving and brings more spatial sounds, like reverberations, resonances, room sounds, microdynamics, etc. Still, I find it to be very musical and perhaps better suited for casual listening at my desk. Overall, it kinda reminds me a bit of OG AKM Topping E30, but actually enjoyable and very much so  .
> 
> ...


Great comparison, perhaps the best so far. Almost every word is matching my experience. A difference is probably related to jitter on the USB connection, yes, jitter. On this model galvanic isolation brings some jitter, only higher models have fully asynchronous clock passing across the isolator, this one doesn't. If you have purchased option with galvanic isolator, I bet it is the case

Ares II was my pick, before I got a deal for
early model R2R-11. Ares was more resolving, but it was not a big difference. Reverbations as a part of room acoustic (in this sense) are close related. When talking about reverbations on a decay of individual instruments like gong or piano (there are very strong, more represent macrodynamics), it was better rendered on R2R-11. Ares 12th should fix this issue, I am convinced it is pure NOS, despite of the theories about 'simulated' ZOH presented in other threads. I never heard of such term, while regularly reading scientific literature in the past, it was a part of my profession. So I warn you to not believe what a homegrown scientist spreads around.

I am not audiophile type, while is is nice to have a good recording, I focus on the performance. My comments can be wrongly pronounced, but I have to say what is important. While Ares sound had virtually no digital glare, was not fatiguing, its smoothness was little unnatural. In a live performance sound is much more violent. R2R-11 had a trully high end sound when listening to acoustic trios. A sound signature is exactly the same as in higher Audio GD range, but something happens on a complex sound... a magic almost disappears. In other words R2R-11 user is getting a taste and a desire to spend more money on the upper product, it is addictive, my second warning.

I managed to rise complex music trigger level by upgrading DIY Amanero module with Crystek ultra low noise oscilators. This, I can estimate, should bring resolving to the Ares level.

There is a dilemma whether the option with galvanic isolation is the best. Judging from this post, it is better to order a standard version and go my way. With an option, R2R-11Mk2 will perform predictable, but average. Without isolator it can sound very good or bad, so care has to be taken on redirecting USB noise.

I made an experiment adding Crystek ultra low jitter oscilators on the Douk Audio U2Pro and feeding R2R-11 with coax. A low noise S/PDIF source brings the same level of performance as my upgraded USB module with an added bonus, there is more resistance to ground loops. If you have option with isolator, S/PDIF source is a way to get peak performance out of the r2r-11mk2.

Have a joyful Christmas
(or Holidays, depends)


----------



## PopZeus

neyurt said:


> The folks over at ASR definitely are more on the critical side of things, but it's hard to argue against using measurements to justify a product's worth.


Sure, some high end gear might measure better than the entry-level stuff, but I’ve found it quite easy to enjoy and value poorly measuring gear over stuff that measures well but sounds lifeless or flat. So it doesn’t really work the way you say it does, at least to me and a lot of others who actively dislike what ASR does for the community.


----------



## NehPets

ku1185 said:


> 👍
> 
> I also liked it best via USB over coax or optical. I only had 1 other NOS DAC but Ares II doesn't sound quite as full bodied or have quite that "presence" as the r2r-11mk2.
> But it is indeed a _beautifully_ detailed and musical DAC. Brings out this captivating sense of realism in a lot of music. Dynamics can feel a little bit lightweight at times and the staging occasionally felt a little strange or uncanny to me ears, but if I were to try to strip my personal preferences and look at it objectively, it is the best sounding DAC I've owned by a fair margin.


Realism, by virtue of the "strange" staging, is my main issue; it's no worse that any other DAC I own, or have heard and inverting the phase helps; it just fails to meet expectations raised my so many glowing reviews, the majority of which seem to be based on speaker systems, hence the question.


----------



## szore

NehPets said:


> Realism, by virtue of the "strange" staging, is my main issue; it's no worse that any other DAC I own, or have heard and inverting the phase helps; it just fails to meet expectations raised my so many glowing reviews, the majority of which seem to be based on speaker systems, hence the question.


I'm curious; what is strange about the AresII staging?


----------



## ku1185 (Dec 25, 2022)

szore said:


> I'm curious; what is strange about the AresII staging?



I thought the image of vocals or instruments feel unnaturally large, like it's stretched out to fill more space. Combined with all of the low level details it brings out like resonance, reverberations, etc., I thought the stage got saturated quite quickly. I'd say this is a positive most of the time, but can feel a little unusual and was noticeable to me on certain tracks, maybe even feeling a little congested at times. Also, due to the "laid back" presentation of the Ares II, it created this strange perception of things _sounding_ very close or intimate (due to low level details) but _feeling _a bit distant.

I hope people don't take this as me poopooing the Ares II. Just giving my impressions of it, quirks and all. At the end of the day, this was one of the most enjoyable DACs I've listened too.


----------



## szore

ku1185 said:


> I thought the image of vocals or instruments feel unnaturally large, like it's stretched out to fill more space. Combined with all of the low level details it brings out like resonance, reverberations, etc., I thought the stage got saturated quite quickly. I'd say this is a positive most of the time, but can feel a little unusual and was noticeable to me on certain tracks, maybe even feeling a little congested at times. Also, due to the "laid back" presentation of the Ares II, it created this strange perception of things _sounding_ very close or intimate (due to low level details) but _feeling _a bit distant.
> 
> I hope people don't take this as me poopooing the Ares II. Just giving my impressions of it, quirks and all. At the end of the day, this was one of the most enjoyable DACs I've listened too.


hmmm...interesting...I am listening while I read that and I guess I can imagine what you are saying...my perception is one of a very natural presentation with geography and depth to the sound.  My Odin 2 power cables really open up the stage and adds great clarity and depth...


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## Nada

Lolito2 said:


> they are a secta, like flatlanders but using science, that's the funny part


  Peudoscience is the new dogma. The latest religion of superiority and intolerance. Its very anti-scientific


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## Nada

ku1185 said:


> it created this strange perception of things _sounding_ very close or intimate (due to low level details) but _feeling _a bit distant.


you sound stoned out of your mind


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## ku1185 (Dec 25, 2022)

Nada said:


> you sound stoned out of your mind


Is there a better way to enjoy music?


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## sajunky (Dec 25, 2022)

Nada said:


> Peudoscience is the new dogma. The latest religion of superiority and intolerance. Its very anti-scientific


Read 'scientology'. Has nothing to do with science.


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## roderickvd

sajunky said:


> Ares 12th should fix this issue, I am convinced it is pure NOS, despite of the theories about 'simulated' ZOH presented in other threads.


Out of interest, what convinces you that Ares 12th fixed this from the Ares II / Enyo?


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## roderickvd

ku1185 said:


> I thought the image of vocals or instruments feel unnaturally large, like it's stretched out to fill more space. Combined with all of the low level details it brings out like resonance, reverberations, etc., I thought the stage got saturated quite quickly. I'd say this is a positive most of the time, but can feel a little unusual and was noticeable to me on certain tracks, maybe even feeling a little congested at times. Also, due to the "laid back" presentation of the Ares II, it created this strange perception of things _sounding_ very close or intimate (due to low level details) but _feeling _a bit distant.


I second this. For pop, funk and jazz, I thought that matched very well. For complex passages in progressive metal not so much. The congestion there made it clear to me that I had not come close to reaching my end game. I loved my Ares for what it was, but found myself looking for alternatives not long after the honeymoon was over.


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## sajunky (Dec 26, 2022)

roderickvd said:


> Out of interest, what convinces you that Ares 12th fixed this from the Ares II / Enyo?


Measurements as presented to us to prove the otherwise. It is not linear interpolation anymore, but sample&hold. Sample&hold decoding was admitted. Output follows test signal precisely at 44.1/48kHz sampling intervals (respectively) with no ringing at all. It imply no brick wall filtering to remove harmonics of 1kHz test signal. Two condition for NOS (no oversampling and no digital filtering) are preserved.

While there is a missing description at which A/D sampling rate test was taken, I am sure it was tested at a lower (Stereophile's limit 200kHz) as well, given the intention. So there is no significant ultrasonic energy close to the Nyquist (100kHz), which otherwise would cause ringing that demontrated clearly on the Holo Audio DACs in the same test condition (both Stereophile and Goldensound tests).


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## roderickvd

Do you mean the measurement taken from the Vinshine marketing? Or have there been more measurements since?

Not trying to question you, just to understand.


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## sajunky (Dec 25, 2022)

roderickvd said:


> Do you mean the measurement taken from the Vinshine marketing? Or have there been more measurements since?
> 
> Not trying to question you, just to understand.


This post, you are welcome.


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## Nada

roderickvd said:


> Or have there been more measurements since?


Please be aware that some posters on this forum may be:
1. commercially biased ie shills/marketers/ etc out to increase sales
2. technically incompetent
3. enjoy creating mayhem

That poster you replied to is an interesting case.  If you look at the history the posts are usually defending a particular brand no matter the facts, technically incompetent despite using big words and personally denigrating if challenged.

In terms of NOS there is no doubt from independent measurements, using industry standard analyser's, that Denafrips has blatantly lied. Again.


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## Ufanco

Hi just added a streamer to my system and only have a choice of optical or coax input. Has anyone notice a difference between the two with the ares 2?


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## keenerz

I preferred the sound of coax over optical. Optical is better if you have interference and ground loop issues however.


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## mrjayviper

I was looking at various denafrips DAC models and I noticed:


ares2 has 2 banks of "DAC circuit"
Venus has 4 banks of "DAC circuit"
does it mean the Ares2 is not fully balanced and it's using some sort of "trickery" to convert the single-ended stereo signal to balanced?


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## JerryLeeds

The number of banks in this case does not matter … the Ares is balanced and the Venus is also balanced but it is doubling up on the decoding when converting to analog


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## Baten

JerryLeeds said:


> The number of banks in this case does not matter … the Ares is balanced and the Venus is also balanced but it is doubling up on the decoding when converting to analog


Sorry, what


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## JaquesGelee (Monday at 4:25 AM)

JerryLeeds said:


> The number of banks in this case does not matter … the Ares is balanced and the Venus is also balanced but it is doubling up on the decoding when converting to analog


Nothing is doubled here, aside the number of "banks" does matter (the whole circuit). Try again.


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## Nada

mrjayviper said:


> does it mean the Ares2 is not fully balanced and it's using some sort of "trickery" to convert the single-ended stereo signal to balanced?



The Ares is clearly natively balanced off the ladders. It has two ladders per channel and two channels. This is both visible and measurements back it up.
If you have a choice run it off the XLR. If you use RCA you only run off half the ladders. Whatever you do don't plug in RCA and XLR at the same time. One ladder will have a different output impedance and the XLR will be unbalanced.

The Venus just doubles the ladders. That's always been a way to improve the SNR in DACs, but it's of limited benefit.


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## mrjayviper

I mistakenly assume 1 "bank" = 1 channel.

Thanks everyone.


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## hifitoaster

Any Ares II owners here use it with an Iris DDC?
When I use the Iris with the Ares II I get a digital artifact sound every few minutes. I've tried it connected via optical and coaxial cables. I've tried USB streamer (rpi4) and my iMac. I've tried 3.12 and 3.14 firmware.

Sample rate of music doesn't seem to be a factor. 44k vs 48K vs higher. All the same issue. I've tried Roon, Audirvana, Spotify, Qobuz.

I've tried a few different USB cables.

None of those variables change the random sound I get every few mins. If I use the Iris with RME ADI-2, no artifact. I'm confused. I've contacted Denafrips, they're working through troubleshooting steps, no solution yet.


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## JaquesGelee

hifitoaster said:


> Any Ares II owners here use it with an Iris DDC?
> When I use the Iris with the Ares II I get a digital artifact sound every few minutes. I've tried it connected via optical and coaxial cables. I've tried USB streamer (rpi4) and my iMac. I've tried 3.12 and 3.14 firmware.
> 
> Sample rate of music doesn't seem to be a factor. 44k vs 48K vs higher. All the same issue. I've tried Roon, Audirvana, Spotify, Qobuz.
> ...


Got it too until the latest firmware.

@alvin1118 could maybe help here!?


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