# Grover UR8 Released



## Audio Addict

I just received my UR8 from Grover. I will get it installed tonight and start the breakend. 

 I tried to upload a picture but I could not get a photo to upload to Head_fi photo.


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## Welly Wu

l


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## rlmacklin

I received 2 pr. 1-m Grover UR-8s this afternoon, will go in system this evening - replacing Grover UR-7s on front left/right channels from source to preamp and preamp to amp for break in.
 Grover referred to these as a leap beyond any of his previous creations.
 I look forward to hearing them...


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## jpr703

Wow, Grover's at it again! Looking forward to seeing the impressions.


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## yo2tup2

keep us updated!


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## yellafella321

where does one go about ordering a pair of these?


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## jp11801

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rlmacklin* 
_I received 2 pr. 1-m Grover UR-8s this afternoon, will go in system this evening - replacing Grover UR-7s on front left/right channels from source to preamp and preamp to amp for break in.
 Grover referred to these as a leap beyond any of his previous creations.
 I look forward to hearing them..._

 

funny when I bought the UR5s they were a leap beyond previous cables as well and that was less than a year ago. I like grovers cables I just wish he would get to a recipe and stick with it rather than be in beta test forever.


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## greenhorn

What exactly is upgraded in those cables?

 What exactly CAN be upgraded in a cable? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Don't flame me, I am just looking for the information.


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## jeffreyj900

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yellafella321* 
_where does one go about ordering a pair of these?_

 

You can PM userid grover, and he will give you pricing. Get ready for the upgrade train 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I started with UR2, later upgraded to the UR6, and now there is the UR8 which is better than the rest..... At least it is only $50 plus shipping to upgrade 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Jeff


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## Akathriel

Quote:


 What exactly is upgraded in those cables?

 What exactly CAN be upgraded in a cable?

 Don't flame me, I am just looking for the information. 
 

Lots of things like dielectic, wires, connectors, shield etc...but the biggest change one can make is to the geometry. Grover probably tweaks all these variables until he finds a sound which he feels is superior to the previous rendition.


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## greenhorn

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Akathriel* 
_Lots of things like dielectic, wires, connectors, shield etc...but the biggest change one can make is to the geometry. Grover probably tweaks all these variables until he finds a sound which he feels is superior to the previous rendition._

 

*This sounds to me more like REPLACING the cable, not UPGRADING it.* 

 I am able to understand replacing the cable with another one but I am still confused about upgrading the cable.

 An amp can be upgraded by replacing some components by better quality ones. However, once you have changed the schematics, it's not an upgraded amp, but it's simply another amp.

 Let's say that somebody has bought a pair of UR1s and has sent the cable back to Grover each and every time when an upgrade opportunity was announced.

 How much of the original cable does that person still have?


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## Akathriel

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *greenhorn* 
_*This sounds to me more like REPLACING the cable, not UPGRADING it.* 

 I am able to understand replacing the cable with another one but I am still confused about upgrading the cable.

 An amp can be upgraded by replacing some components by better quality ones. However, once you have changed the schematics, it's not an upgraded amp, but it's simply another amp.

 Let's say that somebody has bought a pair of UR1s and has sent the cable back to Grover each and every time when an upgrade opportunity was announced.

 How much of the original cable does that person still have?_

 

"upgrade" is also used when moving up a tier, even if its a different item. I would assume that the cable is pretty much completely replaced (though I don't know) and the term upgrade is used because you get a significant discount if you trade in your old one as well. I would say you are pretty much correct when you say that its difficult to "upgrade" a cable.


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## Thaddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *greenhorn* 
_*This sounds to me more like REPLACING the cable, not UPGRADING it.* 

 I am able to understand replacing the cable with another one but I am still confused about upgrading the cable.

 An amp can be upgraded by replacing some components by better quality ones. However, once you have changed the schematics, it's not an upgraded amp, but it's simply another amp.

 Let's say that somebody has bought a pair of UR1s and has sent the cable back to Grover each and every time when an upgrade opportunity was announced.

 How much of the original cable does that person still have?_

 

I'm sort of in agreement here. There have been so many revisions to these cables, it almost makes me wonder how good the original UR1's could have been
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Or, maybe I'm way off and the original UR1's were spectacular, and many sidesteps have been made since then. I've never heard his cables though, so just scroll past this post.

 I will say though, that they look quite sexy


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## Wmcmanus

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rlmacklin* 
_Grover referred to these as a leap beyond any of his previous creations._

 

As he did with each of his previous creations...


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## Thaddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Wmcmanus* 
_As he did with each of his previous creations..._

 

Wayne summed it up in 9 words and three periods


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## DigiPete

Saw Grover last night at a mini-meet in So Cal.

 He gave me a pair of 1M R8 RCAs, and 1M UR8 XLRs to replace my UR6. rca and UR7 XLRs

 He indicated the difference was that the UR8s should be a bit warmer
 than the UR7s


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## yo2tup2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DigiPete* 
_Saw Grover last night at a mini-meet in So Cal.

 He gave me a pair of 1M R8 RCAs, and 1M UR8 XLRs to replace my UR6. rca and UR7 XLRs

 He indicated the difference was that the UR8s should be a bit warmer
 than the UR7s_

 

and are they? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 do you observe them as a noticable step up from your UR6.?


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## euclid

hopefully the ur8 keep the transparency of the ur7 but add some body from the UR6, ive had the ur7 about a month and there is definately a sacrifice in overal musicality when compared to the ur6, the ur7 disappear better though and keep a tighter stage which is appreciated.

 EDIT 2: the UR7 continue to get better with burn-in, i am noticing them less and less. it will be nice if they acheive the same synegistic "rightness" the UR6 did so well. ive also noted that the UR6 seem to have lost some magic after sitting dormant for a few weeks, i think this makes a very relevant difference when comparing cables.


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## PATB

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DigiPete* 
_Saw Grover last night at a mini-meet in So Cal.

 He gave me a pair of 1M R8 RCAs, and 1M UR8 XLRs to replace my UR6. rca and UR7 XLRs

 He indicated the difference was that the UR8s should be a bit warmer
 than the UR7s_

 

What kind of connectors does he use for the XLR these days? The previous connectors look too big and bulky. I just wished he would use neutrik or something nicer looking


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## sbulack

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Thaddy* 
_I'm sort of in agreement here. There have been so many revisions to these cables, it almost makes me wonder how good the original UR1's could have been..._

 

I bought one of the original UR's (before they had grown numbers), and kept it for a year - NOT trading it in for the UR2,3,4,5. A year later, I bought a second UR cable, a UR6. Being able to listen to the UR and the UR6, the differences I notice are: a little of the warmth of the UR is lost in the UR6, and, in its place, is a more coherent soundstage and a more solid, present, palpable sonic image. Both cables are, to my ears, very transparent - enabling the portrayal and illumination of the sonic events in the music with seeming effortlessness and the lowest level of background not contained within the music itself that I'd ever (not) heard before. With both cables, I am left alone with the music, which seems like it is just there - effortlessly presenting itself in its own ontology, (offering the desirable illusion that the music is an existing, even living, entity on its own and is definitely NOT being generated by mechanisms outside of itself) suspended only on whatever the music itself provides for its own structure and support. (I wonder what the laws of Musical Structural Engineering are... or what kind of a permit must be obtained to instantiate a vast soundstage...) With the UR6, a bit of the warmth of the UR is given up (not really noticed on its own without comparison to the UR) for a noticeably more "present" and "palpable" sonic image. How good could the original UR have been? I've moved it to my work rig where I'm daily enjoying the daylights out of it. I don't have to wait until I come home now to enjoy the captivating transparency and ontological effortlessness of the sound presented at the amp by the Grover. How much of an improvement is the UR6? On my home rig, which competently portrays soundstage and sonic imaging, definitely noticeable and very much appreciated and enjoyed.


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## euclid

its seems like throughout all the revisions the overall aim is for cleaner transparancy and stage position, for the most part they all have the same tone with only slight tweaks in the bass pressence and treble clarity. it makes for good system matching thats for sure. 

 the ur7 is by far the cleanest sound so far. most transparent with the closest most imediate presentation, it still can sound alittle lean or disjointed or something.


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## DigiPete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PATB* 
_What kind of connectors does he use for the XLR these days? The previous connectors look too big and bulky. I just wished he would use neutrik or something nicer looking 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

They are the switchcraft w/(hollow silver pins). Grover indicated he likes them better than the neutriks.


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## yellafella321

pics of the grovers please!


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## DigiPete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yellafella321* 
_pics of the grovers please!_

 

coming right up!! 56K Warning!

 Hmm.... head-fi photo gallery not uploading photo for some reason... ok giving up on head-fi photo gallery, trying imageshack


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## DigiPete

It worked!


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## rlmacklin

Grover UR-8s and synergy w/Black Sand Cable Violet Z1 power cords, etc. - 

 I have previously posted comments in the "Power Cord Shootout" thread on the results of placing two 6-foot Black Sand Cable Violet Z1 power cords on my Denon DVD-3910 source and Modwright SWL 9.0SE (w/ Bendix 6900 tubes) linestage (I received them 6/21) and I subsequently ordered a 12-foot Violet Z1 for my power amp. 
 All 2-channel signal path ICs were Grover UR-7.

 I received the 12-foot Violet on Monday 7/3 and placed it on Odyssey Stratos HT-3 (w/ capacitance upgrades). When I powered the amp back up there was initial brightness/brittleness in the highs but it settled down completely in a few hours, so I think it was the amp having had the power off. John at Black Sand had "cooked" this 12-foot Violet for at least 40 hours after making it, so it was somewhat burned-in to start with. The Violet replaced an Element Cable ElementCord (10 gauge) and the Violet is 12 gauge.

 I listened to a lot of 2-channel music over the 4th of July holiday and rest of that week, and found I like my 2-channel system sonics even better with 3 Violet power cords on the source, preamp, and power amp. 
 The 12-foot Violet seemed all the way burned-in at about 150-200 hours.

 The upper end of the dynamic range may not have increased that much over the previous 10-gauge ElementCord (at the same volume setting), but the highest impacts are cleaner and clearer. The 12-foot Violet did "expand" the "dynamic range" in the sense that lower level details are heard and microdynamics are cleaner/clearer with the further lowered noise floor (again at the same volume setting). 

 With the additional Violet on the power amp, the definition of the tone and timbre for each note, instrument, and voice was noticeably improved, and the soundstage was deeper.

 Received *Grover UR-8 ICs *on 7/8 and placed these on all signal paths of 2-channel system, and burned-in over weekend.
*Grover UR-8 is even more detailed/lower noise floor and 
 larger soundstage compared to broken-in UR-7 and carries more of the emotion/feeling in the music to my ears.*

 I tried my usual first test - Bob Marley "Songs of Freedom" set
 CDs 3 and 4 and found more previously unheard musical detail/lower noise floor and "huge" 3-D soundstage.

 The UR-8s on top of the Violets now seems to "do justice" to the new Moody Blues SACDs.

 What really hooked me re using the UR-8s with the Violets was listening to the DG re-master CD of the mature Nathan Milstein doing J.S. Bach Partita 2 for Solo Violin - the *Grover UR-8s (in combination with the Violet power cords) capture not just a "fuller" sound, but the instrument/music now sounds "complete" in some sense in carrying the feeling and emotion in the music better than UR-7 and Violets.*

*The immediacy/presence is stunning *





 .

 I find the Violet power cords "dead neutral," very clear/transparent, and musical on all components on which I have placed them. 

 I find the Grover UR-8s very neutral, highly transparent and musical as well.

 Grover UR-8 ICs/Violet power cords combo is "synergistic" in my 2-channel system, where I now have UR-8 ICs on all signal paths and Violet power cords on all components. 
 .
 I ordered more UR-8s to cover all additional signal paths for the center and surround channels. 
 I will order more Violet Z1 power cords for the center and surround channels preamps and amp.

 My ears are very happy!


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## yellafella321

what are the RCA's used on the grovers?


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## BrianS

mine i think are noname or custom, they look silver (not shiny) for grover 7's


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## imported_Matt_Carter

These U8’s are GENERATIONS above the previous U7s. So much has changed.. and IMO all for the best.
 First thing I noticed was how much wider the horizontal stage has become, and how the characters being imaged with-in; have become more focused and tight knit, while at the same time having a much wider presentation. 
 It’s weird… they still use the same method of shrinking the characters to add space and separation, like with the u7’s, yet there’s, like an added decay and resonance that spreads evenly left to right of the characters, creating the effect of width, which can overlay and even dominate other images while still maintaining defined focal points. 
 Finally imaging that I’ve previously only dreamed of!!

 In real life, passing objects don’t pass ear to ear with the same type of narrow field that plagued every piece of acoustic reproduction I’ve previously heard…

 These U8’s have by far the most accurate, natural imaging I’ve ever experienced, magical in more ways then one.


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## euclid

i received the UR8 too, im pretty accustomed to the UR7 now and i will post some UR8 initial impressions after the weekend.


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## greenhorn

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Matt_Carter* 
_These U8’s are GENERATIONS above the previous U7s. So much has changed.. and IMO all for the best.
 First thing I noticed was how much wider the horizontal stage has become, and how the characters being imaged with-in; have become more focused and tight knit, while still being segregated, and at the same time having a much wider presentation. 
 It’s weird… they still use the same method of shrinking the characters to add space and separation, like with the u7’s, yet there’s, like, an added decay and resonance that spreads evenly left to right from the characters, creating the effect of width while still maintaining a defined focal point. 
 Finally imaging that I’ve previously only dreamed of!!
 In real life, passing objects don’t pass ear to ear with the same type of narrow field that plagued every piece of acoustic reproduction I’ve previously heard…

 These U8’s have by far the most accurate, natural imaging I’ve ever experienced, magical in more ways then one. 

 GTG.. but will be back to cover the rest.
 Dam ADD’s kicking in._

 

I guess I have to get rid of my outdated UR6 as fast as I can... 

 .. if it' not already much too late to find a buyer.


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## imported_Matt_Carter

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yellafella321* 
_what are the RCA's used on the grovers?_

 

SwitchCraft on my U8s.


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## yellafella321

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Matt_Carter* 
_SwitchCraft on my U8s._

 

Gold Plated? Regular? Black body?


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## imported_Matt_Carter

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yellafella321* 
_Gold Plated? Regular? Black body?_

 

Regular I guess.. Could be wrong but they look silver plated copper, same as the U7s.


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## euclid

i think the switchcraft minis are nickel plated, i may be wrong


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## imported_Matt_Carter

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *euclid* 
_i think the switchcraft minis are nickel plated, i may be wrong_

 

Would make sence, they do have a nickel sound too them.


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## euclid

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Matt_Carter* 
_Would make sence, they do have a nickel sound too them._

 

has anyone tried different connectors on the Grovers? i wonder what difference it would make... maybe some bullet plugs or Profi. 

 the Oritek also use a switchcraft but in full size with gold contact,


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## grover

Hi everyone the connectors are heavy silver-plated custom switchcraft connectors. There is no nickel. I searched for a long time to find the best sounding RCA's. After much listening within my beta circle, the custom Silver Switchcraft sounded overall superior to all the leading hi-fi connectors. If anyone is interested in how a certain connector sounds in comparison they can PM me. The secret is the Low Mass, that results in a wonderful broadband signal transfer that is quick and clean. The connectors being silver tarnish with time, however this doesn't affect the sound. The use of these connectors also allows me to keep the price reasonable. The best of all worlds. The only connectors I didn't listen to were the expensive connectors machined from solid silver. However I believe they wouldn't add to the sound quality in any meaningful way. I did compare the the silver switchcraft to the silver platinum WBT next gens, and prefered the sound of the silver Switchcraft. I can assure everyone that there were no compromises made with the selection of these fine connectors.


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## PsychoZX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *grover* 
_Hi everyone the connectors are heavy silver-plated custom switchcraft connectors. There is no nickel. I searched for a long time to find the best sounding RCA's. After much listening within my beta circle, the custom Silver Switchcraft sounded overall superior to all the leading hi-fi connectors. If anyone is interested in how a certain connector sounds in comparison they can PM me. The secret is the Low Mass, that results in a wonderful broadband signal transfer that is quick and clean. The connectors being silver tarnish with time, however this doesn't affect the sound. The use of these connectors also allows me to keep the price reasonable. The best of all worlds. The only connectors I didn't listen to were the expensive connectors machined from solid silver. However I believe they wouldn't add to the sound quality in any meaningful way. I did compare the the silver switchcraft to the silver platinum WBT next gens, and prefered the sound of the silver Switchcraft. I can assure everyone that there were no compromises made with the selection of these fine connectors._

 

Have you tried the eichmann silver bullet plugs? I have a pair of UR6 reterminated with those and I found it to be a huge improvement over the rcas that came with it.


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## grover

Psycho, I did try the eichmann silver bullet and copper bullet. I thought they were very clean with great high frequency detail. But not so great in the bass. They need a much larger return contact. IMHO


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## PATB

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *grover* 
_Psycho, I did try the eichmann silver bullet and copper bullet. I thought they were very clean with great high frequency detail. But not so great in the bass. They need a much larger return contact. IMHO_

 

What about for the XLR? Have you tried the Neutrik's? The switchcrafts just seem so big and bulky -- but I guess if they are the best sounding....


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## Vic

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *euclid* 
_has anyone tried different connectors on the Grovers? i wonder what difference it would make... maybe some bullet plugs or Profi. 

 the Oritek also use a switchcraft but in full size with gold contact,_

 

Euclid,
 have you had a chance to try the Oritek (X1, or even better X2)?
 In this case, would you mind to compare them to the Grover?


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## euclid

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Vic* 
_Euclid,
 have you had a chance to try the Oritek (X1, or even better X2)?
 In this case, would you mind to compare them to the Grover?_

 

LOL, man you must be new here 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 here is the link
http://www6.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=152260 

 the comparisons were in regards to the UR5 and UR6, the UR6 ended up serving me VERY nicely for over 6 months. in the meantime i upgraded my amp to Ray Samuels HR-2 with amazing results, the source has always been a Meridian 596. i also have a Headamp GS-1 that im using for my computer but do cycle through my main system occasionally.

 ive now upgraded to the UR7 which gained alot of transparency and imediacy but admittedly sacrificed some low-end texture and integration the UR6 did so well(after some burn-in they become very natural sounding)... but i recently recieved the UR8 and i am happy to find that Grover has brought the percussion back, my first instinct is they sound like a cleaner, more transparent, better focused UR6 with possibly more articulated(UR5-ish) bass, and they still need alot more burn-in which does make a difference on these cables. i will consider starting a new thread in a few weeks after the UR8 have become more familiar.

 i dont want to suggest dismissing the Oritek X1 completely, there is a pair on the for sale forum now that im tempted to pick-up myself... but if you are going to buy the Oritek then also have Grover send you a pair of his UR- series to see which sound you prefer. i have not heard the X-2, it is out my price range


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## eyeteeth

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *euclid* 
_i have not heard the X-2, it is out my price range_

 

I've heard them and to quote PF's Larry Cox "These have a slightly more relaxed sound, with a less lit-up bottom end and none of the ever-so-slight crunch I heard on the top end of the X-1s. The X-2s had a very seductive warmth and moved a bit toward loveliness without getting syrupy."

 I thought they were a little nicer than the X1 but didn't come near expectations, which were built up too high. Ori disagreed strongly with my "little nicer" thinking the X2 were better than Nordost Valhallas. This is a common theme whether Oritek, Grover or some other DIY cable, they're always better than the Valhalla. I was going to ask my granny to try making a cable so that I could have something better than the Valhalla. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 On the subject of money, I was under the mistaken idea for the longest time that the Grover upgrades were free. When I found out upgrades were like $50 a pop, I was dismayed by the frequency of the upgrades and thought it verged on being criminal. Your UR8 could be like $500 with multiple shippings if you went for each upgrade. But Grover is too nice a person and I can't believe he could charged anyone each and everytime. Both gentlemen use the Switchcraft connectors which they say sound better than the WBT Nextgen but I think it's more about that they sound OK and are like fifteen cents. Putting $50-$100 connectors on would screw with the profit thing. I bought a used Nordost Frey with nextgen for $500 and it's better than what I heard from either Oritek or Grover. Sure I haven't heard the X3 or UR12 yet. I'm sure each will be a huge leap beyond the previous versions. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 In my humble opinion it is the small magnitude of difference, compared with other audio components, between $50 and $5,000 cables that has a lesser cable capable in claim or reality to challenge a very expensive one. They aren't that important and they're all way overpriced including Nordost. At least with my Nordost's translucent jacket it's very obvious no one put this together in their living-room. Cut open your cable and see what in there.

 Buy an Oritek or Grover in confidence as each is good for the money and on an absolute scale. Or get something else.


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## DarkAngel

DA is back in the cable merry go round..........have *Grover U8s* cooking on Fry Kleaner now, in a few days will do my comparisons. No need to post new pix, exterior of cable looks exactly like U7 except for label that says U8.

 In case you are new to Grover threads here is Pix that compares U6/U7:






*ET*
 The $50 upgrade offered by Grover is unheard of in audio business and a great service to existing customers.......just ask Nordost any other cable manufacturer for thier low upgrade deal, ha ha
 I don't see how you can say Grover is doing anything but offering great service to loyal customers, no one is forcing anyone to upgrade and at $50 Grover not making any big profits for sure. 

 Of course there are better cables than Grover (or Oritek) for a price, but as you say for that much money often better results are had with equipment upgrades instead......or mods!

 I have been on big "mod" campaign using RAM (reference audio mods) to do all Dacs, CDPs, Transports.......you can really get very high end sound for reasonable money with well done mods, this seems to be biggest bang for buck as far as money spent on to improve sound for me.

*rlmacklin*
 What cables have you used prior to Grover U7/U8? 
 (just want some perspective on your impressions)


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## euclid

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *eyeteeth* 
_I've heard them and to quote PF's Larry Cox "These have a slightly more relaxed sound, with a less lit-up bottom end and none of the ever-so-slight crunch I heard on the top end of the X-1s. The X-2s had a very seductive warmth and moved a bit toward loveliness without getting syrupy."

 I thought they were a little nicer than the X1 but didn't come near expectations, which were built up too high. Ori disagreed strongly with my "little nicer" thinking the X2 were better than Nordost Valhallas. This is a common theme whether Oritek, Grover or some other DIY cable, they're always better than the Valhalla. I was going to ask my granny to try making a cable so that I could have something better than the Valhalla. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




_

 

thats so typical, those were the EXACT problems i originally observed with the X-1. straight from the horses mouth "it wasnt the cables its my system... or hearing(paraphrased 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)" after that whole fiasco went down i really didnt care how good the X-2 were, i wasnt going to pay for them. 

 eyeteeth i mean no direct disrespect to you, but to clarify your post Grover himself has never made a claim that i am aware of (either public or personal) that ever suggested his cables are superior to anyone elses. i have no doubt there are better cables available but for the money i am satisfied and dont feel the need to spend in multiples to find something better.

 likewise i hope if there are "reasonably priced" cables around that can compare then we catch wind of them on this forum. i'm looking to extract the most from my system, at the very least competetion leads to advancement. wheres the X-1 mkII?


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## eyeteeth

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DarkAngel* 
_DA is back in the cable merry go round..........have *Grover U8s* cooking on Fry Kleaner now, in a few days will do my comparisons._

 

Just copy/paste what you said the last eight times. Better this and better that. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





  Quote:


 *ET*
 The $50 upgrade offered by Grover is unheard of in audio business and a great service to existing customers.......just ask Nordost any other cable manufacturer for thier low upgrade deal, ha ha 
 

Basically they drastically dropped the price of monofilament...ho ho.

  Quote:


 I don't see how you can say Grover is doing anything but offering great service to loyal customers, no one is forcing anyone to upgrade and at $50 Grover not making any big profits for sure. 
 

 Sometimes I think the general atmosphere of cynicism that exists towards cable guys is fairly deserved. I always assumed your Grovers were for free? You paid for each of the seven upgrades?


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## eyeteeth

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *euclid* 
_ after that whole fiasco went down i really didnt care how good the X-2 were, i wasnt going to pay for them. 

 eyeteeth i mean no direct disrespect to you, but to clarify your post Grover himself has never made a claim that i am aware of (either public or personal) that ever suggested his cables are superior to anyone elses. 


 wheres the X-1 mkII?_

 

You're right euclid it's a turn-off. 

 And I think you're right again. I can't remember Grover saying anything like that either. I think it was Ori who thought his cables were the world's best.

 X-1 mkII? China?


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## Audio Addict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *eyeteeth* 
_ Sometimes I think the general atmosphere of cynicism that exists towards cable guys is fairly deserved. I always assumed your Grovers were for free? You paid for each of the seven upgrades?_

 

Why would you think they are free? No one has to upgrade, that's an individual decision. If you wanted to try something different, it would cost you a lot more than the cost of Grover's upgrade's. 

 As some have said, they are very content with their current version and don't feel the need to upgrade. Others like to try different things and the price is very reasonable when you even consider the time Grover has involved.


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## eyeteeth

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Audio Addict* 
_Why would you think they are free?_

 

Mine were always free. There's nothing wrong with being a fan of something, which is what darkangel is, but he's also the main man of steady promotions and I doubt he has to pay for his upgrades. All I was saying was that it's easy to call $50 nothing if you don't have to actually cough it up. If I'm wrong then I apologize in advance. 
 Like I said Quote:


 Buy an Oritek or Grover in confidence as each is good for the money and on an absolute scale.


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## grover

My cable philosophy is to make the best cables that can be made period. If there are better cables I want to hear them. I'm dismayed that the price I charge leads people to believe that they are not competitive to a $5000 cable, I believe they are and better them. I have always cherished Eyeteeth as he provided a huge incentive to improve my cables. I like him and am glad he's here. I only want the most honest evaluation of my work. Dark Angel has always been honest and that is why he's in my beta group. My many revisions are of course a drag, but improving cables is taken a step at a time. I cannot sell cables I myself do not use, therefore the changes. I am totally driven to make the best cable period, and to keep the price in the range where normal music lovers can enjoy. When I upgrade a cable especially now at the UR8 level, the cable is completely disassembled, new conductors and silver connectors installed and the finishing cosmetic touches completed. So the upgraded cable is a totally new cable. I maybe wrong but I think I'm the only one that offers this service or can. I believe that the UR8 is at a level where the UR9 is a long ways off.


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## rlmacklin

Dark Angel,

 In reply to your query to me at bottom of a post above...

 I did some digging and found/edited my post of 1-18-06 (see below) which details some of my Grover ICs. I ordered new originally and have "upgraded" since. 
 [Edit for clarification in light of some stuff in various posts above] I have always paid the $50 upgrade fee except for the UR-6 upgrade of UR-5, which Grover offered to everyone for free. 
 Grover did offer and send two pairs Ur-6. shortly after UR-6 (see dates below), but I paid the upgrade fee for those as well.

 Prior to getting Grover UR-1 (based on Head-Fi and Steve Hoffman Forum members' reviews), I had Element Cable Twisted Pair II ICs and then some Audiogeek Nitrogens (based on Head-Fi review). Some of my system components at that time were different and 2 Nitrogens in series gave way too much volume attentuation and even 1 was not quite tenable, so I took Eric's (eric343) offer to replace with Audiogeek Tube Nitros. Those gave less volume attenuation and I thought the sonics were very good but definitely still slightly warm, full, "copper" sounding, so I looked into silver ICs and went with Grover's URs and also got Grover UR speaker cables. Later I had Grover make a custom SDA interconnect cable (from the UR speaker cable) for my Polk SDA-1s.

 I can't afford Stealth Indra, Nordost Valhalla, or other ICs in the "stratospheric" price range.

 I have since gotten the Modwright linestage and the Odyssey Stratos HT-3 w/capacitance upgrades for my 2-channel system and previous PS Audio PCA-2/HCA-2 preamp/amp are curently used for the surround channels. An earlier Sunfire Symphonic Ref preamp is now on center channel feeding 3rd channel of the Odyssey amp. 

 Some of my impressions of Grover's various incarnations are included in the earlier (edited) post below. Mostly they seemed all improvements over previous versions, except UR-5 (see below).

 I find the UR-8s w/RCAs to be Grover's best yet - and not just by a tiny increment over UR-7s. 

 I think Matt Carter's post captured another way of saying part of what I am hearing re UR-8 having more musical "completeness" / conveying the sound and feeling of the music better. I think it is that UR-8 has improved capture of the "sustain" and "decay" phases of notes compared to UR-7.

 There is a pair of balanced UR-8 w/XLRs among my next batch which should arrive later this week. I ordered these as upgrades. Grover said he applied theoretic insight from his single-ended UR-8 design to create the balanced version UR-8, but does not himself run balanced, so he is not sure how it compares to balanced UR-7. He asked me to "compare closely the two" and let him know my impressions, which I will post here also. That testing will come after all UR-8s are burned-in. (Also burning-in some more Violet Z1 power cords, which came a couple days back, on the center and surround components). 


 *************************************
 01-18-2006, 04:04 PM #464 
 rlmacklin 

 I have had Grover's UR-1, UR-3, UR-5, early UR-6, and now a later revision UR-6 which comes with a label indicating "Grover U6." (with a dot or period after the U6)

 I considered the UR-5 to be a step mostly "sideways" (in markl's terminology) as it may have gained more bass "weight" but in some way negatively affected the Grover "highs" in my opinion. Whether Grover agreed or just had made further improvement in design, he offered all UR-5 owners free upgrades to UR-6. 

 I received 2 pairs single-ended ICs labeled "Grover U6" around 12/20/05 and began burn-in. After 3 or 4 days, I did listening tests and found improved clarity, detail and soundstage especially in the mids and the highs. They seemed a little "leaner" with less "weight" in the bass, but the UR-6s were clearly superior to UR-5 with good bass and the Grover "highs" were back, correcting what I heard as UR-5 deficiencies in my system.

 On 12/26/05 Grover informed me of a later revision to UR-6 and offered to send a pair. I requested two pairs so I would have a complete set for my 2-channel set-up of the time: source (stock Denon DVD-3910) to Sunfire Symphonic Reference preamp and for Sunfire to PS Audio HCA-2 power amp [with 15-foot Grover UR speaker cables to Polk SDA-1 speakers (running without their interconnecting cable)].

 Bottom line: The later revision (UR-6. ) is to my ears a completely different "beast" (than the earlier UR-6 which was reviewed by markl), which I think is deserving of its own level number. 
 UR-6. clearly outperforms earlier UR-6 with two pairs in chain. 
 Reported below are some highlights edited from my e-mails to Grover:

 1/04/06
 The 2 pairs one meter ICs with labeling "Grover U6. " arrived and went into my system. I took out the earlier Grover UR-6s [labeled "Grover U6" (with no period or dot after the 6)] from source left and right front channels to preamp to front channel power amp and put in the "Grover U6."s. 
 I started by listening to 2-channel stereo Discs 3 and 4 of Bob Marley CD set which I use as references to see what "new" I hear... I have found these are especially rich in layered midrange sounds and quickly reveal when I am hearing something new. 

 First thing I noticed was a blacker background/lower noise floor and it seemed I had to turn the volume knob up a little more to achieve same sound level.
 Noticed much improved "coherence" – something seemed vastly improved in the lower half of the frequency spectrum - in terms of increased "texture" and "focus" - the bass notes/instruments have "directionality" and are much more precisely spatially located - noticeably better than my earlier revision UR-6. Similar "coherence" in upper mids and highs, but not so great a noticeable improvement to me (over earlier UR-6s) as compared to the lower frequencies.
 Some instruments which seemed to come in briefly or intermittently with previous URs - well it now seems I can follow a more complete or entire run of that line through the music.
 There seems to be increased detail and air around instruments/notes at all frequencies, and expanded wider/deeper soundstage.


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## eyeteeth

We have two fundamentally opposing views, much as one on the far left and one on the far right will see the same issue very differently. 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DarkAngel* 
_I don't see how you can say Grover is doing anything but offering great service to loyal customers, no one is forcing anyone to upgrade and at $50 Grover not making any big profits for sure._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *grover* 
_My cable philosophy is to make the best cables that can be made period._

 

That's one way of looking at it. I see it differently.This isn't some high crime or anything of real importance, just questionable practices on a small scale and poor customer service.

 Think of the guy for whom $150 is a substantial amount to spend or he who paid an additional $200 for four upgrades. A few weeks or months go by and suddenly there are posts about the very latest upgrade. No one is forcing them to upgrade true enough but the message is quite clear that if they don't they're missing out on a whole hell of a lot as this version is
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rlmacklin* 
_a leap beyond any of his previous creations._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Matt_Carter* 
_These U8’s are GENERATIONS above the previous U7s. So much has changed.. and IMO all for the best._

 

Putting aside the credibility of the claims, how is having these guys' recently purchased cables regularly and routinely made to seem obsolete a "great service to loyal customers"? It looks like they're being screwed to me. I see it all as buyer beware because you're buying into a costly program of constant maintenance that will eventually greatly multiply the original layout.

 Well I don't know what else to say, we see it differently.
 Good luck, hopefully negative perceptions will find cause to change in the future.


----------



## PATB

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *eyeteeth* 
_Putting aside the credibility of the claims, how is having these guys' recently purchased cables regularly and routinely made to seem obsolete a "great service to loyal customers"? It looks like they're being screwed to me. I see it all as buyer beware because you're buying into a costly program of constant maintenance that will eventually greatly multiply the original layout._

 

Well, you have a point there. Even considering that no one is forced to continually pay for "maintenance," the value of the old cables just goes down the drain with every new upgrade. The fact of the matter is that buyers want to buy the latest, so the older versions must depreciate like crazy.

 However, please consider that some of us are very satisfied with the cables and do not need continual upgrades. I have had my single-ended UR for quite some time that I forgot its version number 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Frankly, I don't care because they sound good (open and detailed) for a fraction of the price I paid for my Cardas Neutral reference (I am not sure of the Valhalla claims though 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ) 

 I did eventually sell my Grover XLR (don't know the version number) not because it is outdated, but because I thought it is ugly as sin (sorry Grover!), and I am shallow that way! The Grover RCA's, on the other hand, look decent and sound excellent to boot -- so I am keeping them. I have no need for the "maintenance."


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## rlmacklin

Just to set the record straight:

 originally posted by eyeteeth
 Quote:
 Originally Posted by rlmacklin
 a leap beyond any of his previous creations. 

 eyeteeth left out the part of my post that clearly stated [emphasis added]
 "*Grover said *... a leap beyond any of his previous creations."


 In my earlier post today, I said:
 "I find the UR-8s w/RCAs to be Grover's best yet - and not just by a tiny increment over UR-7s. "

 My additional UR-8s arrived this afternoon and are starting burn-in.


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## grover

Now remember Eyeteeth you really don't know what you’re talking about since you have been out of the loop a long time now. You have no idea what the UR8 sounds like or if it's worth $50 to upgrade your UR6, I assure you it is and you should go for the upgrade. I gave you those cables hoping to help you enjoy music my mistake. The UR8 really is a wonder cable and well worth the $150 I charge for it. I figure that you can upgrade a couple times and still come in way under the median price of good cables. Yes maybe it's a poor business practice but I want music lovers to have the best cables possible within a price range they can afford. My cables have been compared to cables costing 5 times, 10 times, 20 times more expensive. Now that leaves a lot of room for upgrades. You Eyeteeth sound like sour grapes to me. The fact I give people the path to better cables for $50 really gets under your skin. Well I'm glad to see that you agree or otherwise how could the previous cables be considered obsolete. The magic of sound is always worth the effort. I'm going to be around for a long time Eyeteeth and look forward to your barbs.


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## Fleschler

I am upgrading all my UR 4s through 7s with UR8. My wife has exceptionally fine hearing/discernment in sonic differences from my high end system, found the latest cables to be scary (good). She noticed the sonic differences Grover made in changes in wire type, gauge, insulation, number of wires, connectors, etc. The UR8 brings everything Grover has learned in 10 years of wire manufacturing together. The sound is there, whatever equipment we use, it sounds better. I have used it on inexpensive Sherwood 7100 & Dynaco 30s to custom made tube electronics to E.A.R. 864 pre-amp & 890 amp. All benefit very substantially from the UR8 over the 6s and 7s. She was always finding something not quite to her liking (highs, mids, bass, width, etc). Now, there is nothing but a full bodied, fleshed out sound to our opera, heavy metal, jazz, folk, classical, etc. records and CDs (and as Steve Hoffman has said to me, I have more records than anyone should need). 

 Notice that the UR8 was invented in April and has been sold without change. No changes are projected by Grover (although a minor tweak may occur in six months or a year, who knows). 

 Grover is not gouging the public like so many high end cable manufacturers. If you read the patents like he did and found out how crappy some of the competitors cables are (the midrangy Kubala Sosna feels heavy/leaden for a reason-it has a heavy leaded shield, no surprise there) which sell for 15, 20, 30 times UR8s, you would think you've been had buying them.

 Grover's upgrades are unique and low priced. I had expensive Cardas, Magnan, Hovland, Audioquest, Kimber and Audio Research cables in the 80's and 90's. Although I got back 1/3 of my money I paid (new), I didn't feel I got the benefit of my money listening to them. Guess what their upgrade policy was/is- NONE. Tough luck if something better comes along. Well, it is true there that the audiophile community generally pays a premium for used high end gear regardless of its quality based on name recognition. Grover's cable doesn't carry that cache (yet), probably due to his very reasonable pricing.

 Grover heard dozens of high end connectors. Some were quite good and many bettered the stock Switchcraft. What he discovered is that low mass connectors were conceptually closer to no connector at all (more like hard wiring components together-a reason why so many integrated amps sound superior to separates). He determined that he could manufacture superior sounding connectors and that they could be low cost. The highly modified Switchcraft have been chemically stripped (the ground has tin coated steel)and then multi-coated with more audiophile like materials (copper, silver, etc.). They are not cheap and make excellent connections. 

 As to the wire upgrades, Grover remanufactures your cables for $50, not a cheap labor job (these are made in the U.S., not with slave wage Chinese laborers). I owe Eyeteeth nothing and consider him the equivalent of a unpaid spammer. He is just like spammers of great companies in the Yahoo Finance message boards. Please go away. However, as a typical spammer/curmudgeon, he probably won't. "Eyeteeth" moniker in an audio Head-Fi forum, how contradictory. 

 I've had several systems using Grover's speaker wire. No change in that design in quite a few years. He designed it as well as any high end manufacturer has but the cost is higher than his interconnects due to the high silver content (at $10 to $15 an ounce in 2006). 

 The so called "filaments" are individually manufactured, minimizing skin effect by maintaining small gauges, increasing gauges devoted to the bass and balancing the positive and negative (supply and return) sides. This balancing has evolved to the present UR8 at $150 a meter pair. THIS IS A BARGAIN! 
 I bet that even Krell equipment will sound more musical.


----------



## Fleschler

I am upgrading all my UR 4s through 7s with UR8. My wife has exceptionally fine hearing/discernment in sonic differences from my high end system, found the latest cables to be scary (good). She noticed the sonic differences Grover made in changes in wire type, gauge, insulation, number of wires, connectors, etc. The UR8 brings everything Grover has learned in 10 years of wire manufacturing together. The sound is there, whatever equipment we use, it sounds better. I have used it on inexpensive Sherwood 7100 & Dynaco 30s to custom made tube electronics to E.A.R. 864 pre-amp & 890 amp. All benefit very substantially from the UR8 over the 6s and 7s. She was always finding something not quite to her liking (highs, mids, bass, width, etc). Now, there is nothing but a full bodied, fleshed out sound to our opera, heavy metal, jazz, folk, classical, etc. records and CDs (and as Steve Hoffman has said to me, I have more records than anyone should need). 

 Notice that the UR8 was invented in April and has been sold without change. No changes are projected by Grover (although a minor tweak may occur in six months or a year, who knows). 

 Grover is not gouging the public like so many high end cable manufacturers. If you read the patents like he did and found out how crappy some of the competitors cables are (the midrangy Kubala Sosna feels heavy/leaden for a reason-it has a heavy leaded shield, no surprise there) which sell for 15, 20, 30 times UR8s, you would think you've been had buying them.

 Grover's upgrades are unique and low priced. I had expensive Cardas, Magnan, Hovland, Audioquest, Kimber and Audio Research cables in the 80's and 90's. Although I got back 1/3 of my money I paid (new), I didn't feel I got the benefit of my money listening to them. Guess what their upgrade policy was/is- NONE. Tough luck if something better comes along. Well, it is true there that the audiophile community generally pays a premium for used high end gear regardless of its quality based on name recognition. Grover's cable doesn't carry that cache (yet), probably due to his very reasonable pricing.

 Grover heard dozens of high end connectors. Some were quite good and many bettered the stock Switchcraft. What he discovered is that low mass connectors were conceptually closer to no connector at all (more like hard wiring components together-a reason why so many integrated amps sound superior to separates). He determined that he could manufacture superior sounding connectors and that they could be low cost. The highly modified Switchcraft have been chemically stripped (the ground has tin coated steel)and then multi-coated with more audiophile like materials (copper, silver, etc.). They are not cheap and make excellent connections. 

 As to the wire upgrades, Grover remanufactures your cables for $50, not a cheap labor job (these are made in the U.S., not with slave wage Chinese laborers). I owe Eyeteeth nothing and consider him the equivalent of a unpaid spammer. He is just like spammers of great companies in the Yahoo Finance message boards. Please go away. However, as a typical spammer/curmudgeon, he probably won't. "Eyeteeth" moniker in an audio Head-Fi forum, how contradictory. 

 I've had several systems using Grover's speaker wire. No change in that design in quite a few years. He designed it as well as any high end manufacturer has but the cost is higher than his interconnects due to the high silver content (at $10 to $15 an ounce in 2006). 

 The so called "filaments" are individually manufactured, minimizing skin effect by maintaining small gauges, increasing gauges devoted to the bass and balancing the positive and negative (supply and return) sides. This balancing has evolved to the present UR8 at $150 a meter pair. THIS IS A BARGAIN! 
 I bet that even Krell equipment will sound more musical.


----------



## 909

I’ve been scanning this thread off and on; and I do consider Grover a friend. 

 Yet I think everyone is entitled to share their opinions be it wrong or right (perception you know), but some of the statements made against “Eyeteeth” are really unnecessarily harsh and verge on being uncalled for, IMO. 

 When people want to shut someone up it is very telling and then labeling them too based on a single comment, post or even a few posts makes me very suspicious as to why. Is what he has posted so detrimental to Grover’s cable business? I don’t think so. 

 In the heat of the moment things happen and I am not beyond reproach either. But it doesn’t do anyone any good such as if someone said another "s" word about a pro Grover post to flip the coin. There’s a saying you can’t please all of the people all of the time.


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## Mastergill

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Fleschler* 
_Notice that the UR8 was invented in April and has been sold without change. No changes are projected by Grover (although a minor tweak may occur in six months or a year, who knows)._

 

Yeah, who knows...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


 I owe Eyeteeth nothing and consider him the equivalent of a unpaid spammer. He is just like spammers of great companies in the Yahoo Finance message boards. Please go away. However, as a typical spammer/curmudgeon, he probably won't. "Eyeteeth" moniker in an audio Head-Fi forum, how contradictory. 
 

And a dude with 3 posts and nothing in his profile who came to defend a questionable business practice that's not a spammer!?


----------



## tom hankins

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Mastergill* 
_And a dude with 3 posts and nothing in his profile who came to defend a questionable business practice that's not a spammer!?_

 

I guess since your post implies that the amount of posts and the amount of gear in ones profile have something to do with there opinion being legitimate...My opinion must rate much higher than yours.
 My opinion is that neither (post count, or profile) has anything to do with ones personal feelings about gear or other people. Since I have more posts and (according to our profiles) more gear.......My post must carry more wieght than yours. 
 IMO, there is nothing questionable about offering an upgrade path to a better product from the same company. Quite the oppisite.


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## 909

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tom hankins* 
_I guess since your post implies that the amount of posts and the amount of gear in ones profile have something to do with there opinion being legitimate...My opinion must rate much higher than yours.
 My opinion is that neither (post count, or profile) has anything to do with ones personal feelings about gear or other people. Since I have more posts and (according to our profiles) more gear.......My post must carry more wieght than yours. 
 IMO, there is nothing questionable about offering an upgrade path to a better product from the same company. Quite the oppisite._

 

I do concur with your point, but I assume you are just being silly with the more weight thing in relativity to post count.


 Grover you've exceeded your stored private messages quota and can't accept further messages until you clear some space.


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## 909

I would just like to note that I also think Eyeteeth's comments about Grover and his cables were highly inappropriate and uncalled for as well.


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## rlmacklin

With Grover's UR series ICs I have always had the choice to upgrade or not. I typically, as a start have ordered two pairs w/RCAs as "upgrades" to use in all signal paths of 2-channel system for considered evaluation. If I did not feel they were worth the $50 upgrade fee per pair I could/would have returned them. On the occasion when I evaluated the UR-5 version and found these to be a "sideways" step (rather than forward), Grover came out with what he said was a better design UR-6 and he sent those out promptly for evaluation. 
 I have kept the prior version on center and surround channels on some occasions, but I have found UR-8s enough superior to UR-7, that I now have UR-8s on all signal paths for entire multi-channel system.

 IMHO, I find Grover's practice re "upgrades" - *particularly in not continuing to make what he feels to be inferior versions of his ICs - and only selling what he feels to be his best ICs and the ones he currently uses himself *- to be at the heart of a concept called "*integrity*."


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## 909

I agree, but consumers’ desire consistency with the products they buy too. It’s a fine line between what one would perceive is a finished product and a work in progress. If Grover believes (as do others) he is making improvements with his cables I think consumers and customers should benefit for the upgrade program offered. I see nothing wrong with a manufacturer wanting to provide his best product in the market place. I do wonder as to the 8 different UR versions if we were able to conduct a blind back-to-back comparison, which version (if any) would come out on top?


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## Mastergill

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tom hankins* 
_I guess since your post implies that the amount of posts and the amount of gear in ones profile have something to do with there opinion being legitimate...My opinion must rate much higher than yours.
 My opinion is that neither (post count, or profile) has anything to do with ones personal feelings about gear or other people. Since I have more posts and (according to our profiles) more gear.......My post must carry more wieght than yours. 
 IMO, there is nothing questionable about offering an upgrade path to a better product from the same company. Quite the oppisite._

 

Don't read too much into my words, i did not meant that. Fleschler was looking like a spammer here IMO, like he could be some manufacturer's friend with low post count coming here just for this occasion, even if i guess and hope he's not...

 Oh boy i don't care about these cables, i just found this UR saga quite amusing and myself i like better when my favorite manufacturers don't upgrade every 4 months.


----------



## euclid

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Mastergill* 
_Oh boy i don't care about these cables, i just found this UR saga quite amusing and myself i like better when my favorite manufacturers don't upgrade every 4 months. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

yeah im sure we would all be much happier with the UR1 just knowing its still on the bleeding edge after all this time, Grover is such a selfish prick for forcing upgrades on us unsuspecting and vulnerable sheep 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 im really scared, my system sounds good now but it may sound even better in a few months... what a cruel world


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## grover

Well whether or not my business practices are suspect or not, my goal is to offer the finest cables. That necessitates when through constant research and development I make in my evaluation a major improvement, such that I can no longer return to listening to the previous cable, I must replace the product. Not willing to sell a product I do not enjoy. That is also why I offer only one product and not several at various price points that are so common in today’s market. I do believe for what it's worth that the UR8 is at a level that it will be a stable product. I was over at Steve Hoffman's house the other day and was able to listen to it compared to many very expensive cables I was very pleased with the UR8. I believe my loyal customers enjoy being able to receive the better performing cables at the IMO reasonable expense.


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## rlmacklin

If we "unsuspecting and vulnerable sheep" (and others) were able to conduct a blind back-to-back comparison of the 8 different UR versions, per 909's question, I strongly _suspect_ (guess that's knocks me out of being "unsuspecting" 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ) the UR-8 would separate itself from the rest - assuming that the single-blind or double-blind sheep have their ears/hearing intact. 
 If any one thinks Grover was just after our "golden fleece," I hope they get a chance to hear the UR-8s we got in return!
 If any one thinks Grover has "shorn" his upgrade customers, well, 
 this would make it all the more difficult to "pull the wool over our eyes!" 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I notice a clear decrease in soundstage dimensions on my 2-channel system when changing UR-8 back to UR-7 on all signal paths. 

 (Needless to say, I enjoyed euclid's humor.)


----------



## eyeteeth

Hopefully I can get some time in the next days to take part in this thread some more. I did want to mention that I'd be back and as I'm here now will briefly add something.
 I'm suprised that no one has yet seen that the two positions can both be true. What doesn't get examined close enough as individuals hurridly scramble to their side of the street and take a stand, is how behaviour affects appearance and motivations are made unclear. Your actions may appear crooked but you're not a crook. Two may look like shills but only one might be.

 Anyway it is enjoyable watching the goings on surrounding the most messianic of audio elements, the cable.


----------



## euclid

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *eyeteeth* 
_Hopefully I can get some time in the next days to take part in this thread some more. I did want to mention that I'd be back and as I'm here now will briefly add something.
 I'm suprised that no one has yet seen that the two positions can both be true. What doesn't get examined close enough as individuals hurridly scramble to their side of the street and take a stand, is how behaviour affects appearance and motivations are made unclear. Your actions may appear crooked but you're not a crook. Two may look like shills but only one might be.

 Anyway it is enjoyable watching the goings on surrounding the most messianic of audio elements, the cable._

 


 just look at the situation as a whole. Originally Grover designs a UR series which uses a specific type of wire and construction process. after he brings the cable to market he continually improves on the design(maybe even for his own enjoyment in his own system) and finds a new combination that clearly sounds better than the original.

 so now the dilemma, does he keep it to himself and continue to offer the infereior cables to new buyers, offer another line at a higher price, or replace the originals so new buyers will get the best and the original owners have the ability to upgrade? 

 so now assume you are an original buyer and you want the new revision. that involves sending the cables back to Grover, which he has to inspect, dismatle, upgrade, reassemble, repackage, reship... multiply that by ALOT of potential user upgrades. it would be foolish for him to do it for free.

 we should be gratefull he is allowing us to pay him only for labor and consequenlty he can recycle some of the materials, rather than forcing us to keep the originals and buying a whole new cable, maybe at an even higher price point than the $150 "inferior" original cable. plus selling the originals as used we could potentially lose more than $50 right there.

 im not sure what your position is... except continue to offer the upgrades, but do it for free? we'd never see new revisions.


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## imported_Matt_Carter

Dam you guys are bitter. 
 You should all be so honored. 
 I feel indebt to the guy. 
 He's obviously passionate about his craft and just trying to share his world class efforts with those who can truly appreciate them. I'm sure $50 barley covers the cost of the things. 

 Seriously, smarten UP!


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## DarkAngel

Well enough of this sideshow about $50 upgrades..........UR8s are done cooking on Fry Kleaner

 Got some time in on new UR8 cables, they do have a different tonal sound than UR7 being richer more full bodied, plus seem to be better at all the important things especially low end authority.

 The UR8 sounds like a better more refined UR6 tonally, very balanced natural sound with plenty of smooth body and relaxed detail in the sound. The UR7 by comparison has more treble energy balance and perhaps leaner overall presentation and lacking some low end extension. The UR8 has greater bass and lower midrange authority, punch and detail giving it a richer more full bodied sound and added dynamic range. The UR8 also keeps all the extra detail the UR7 was able present while giving us the added body and richness throughout the tonal range. I definitely prefer the UR8 vs UR7 because of the added body and refinement which gives the music a nicely relaxed natural sound that is still highly detailed.

 The bass authority of UR8 can be pretty easily heard, not sure how Grover did this. You get more low end punch but still very fast and detailed, gives you a more exciting sound with expanded dynamic range, lots of fun with your rock CDs that now have more low end kick. Classical music has a more viscerial impact with added bass extension and detail.

 Soundstage and midrange detail all slightly improved over UR7, again while giving a richer more relaxed presentation. Music sounds more natural and flowing while uncovering more fine details from deep in the soundstage, I do all listening on 2 channel stereo and soundstage is biggest I have heard from any Grover cable to date, very impressive. Overall the UR8 is the most balanced, refined and natural sounding cable Grover has produced and has exposed some weakness in UR7 I was unaware of till now.

 I have said this before........what I really like about UR8 and other Grover cables is that they make all music, even average rock/alt CDs, sound as good as possible without magnifying thier flaws, seems like a paradox but Grover cables pull this off better than any other cables I have heard......very important feature for me since I have huge numbers of just average sound quality CDs I listen to.


----------



## DarkAngel

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *euclid* 
_hopefully the ur8 keep the transparency of the ur7 but add some body from the UR6, ive had the ur7 about a month and there is definately a sacrifice in overal musicality when compared to the ur6, the ur7 disappear better though and keep a tighter stage which is appreciated.

 EDIT 2: the UR7 continue to get better with burn-in, i am noticing them less and less. it will be nice if they acheive the same synegistic "rightness" the UR6 did so well. ive also noted that the UR6 seem to have lost some magic after sitting dormant for a few weeks, i think this makes a very relevant difference when comparing cables._

 

Read my impressions above and what you seek is pretty much what UR8 has acheived, it is a better more refined UR6 without sacrificing any improvements of UR7.

 Just to give some idea of relative improvement, I would say UR8 is the biggest step up in all the previous UR versions and has the greatest incremental improvement. I have owned all previous UR versions plus Grover cables before UR series.


----------



## imported_Matt_Carter

Aw Yeess the Bass,
 No longer can anyone say Grovers lack it.

 It's sophisticated with the ability to be just plain silly and fun. How it knows when you want a flat neutral response, and when you want some serious shell shock..? I have, no idea. 

 Just, another sprinkle of magic.


----------



## euclid

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DarkAngel* 
_Read my impressions above and what you seek is pretty much what UR8 has acheived, it is a better more refined UR6 without sacrificing any improvements of UR7.

 Just to give some idea of relative improvement, I would say UR8 is the biggest step up in all the previous UR versions and has the greatest incremental improvement. I have owned all previous UR versions plus Grover cables before UR series._

 

thanks, my impressions are in agreement, i still have not decided which is better in ultimate transparency, with the UR7 sound comes out of seemingly dead space, completley transparant to me, like the X-1 was. the UR8 is off the bat better at basically everything else, after i get used to the UR8 more i should be able to back to back with the UR7 more. 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *euclid* 
_ ive now upgraded to the UR7 which gained alot of transparency and imediacy but admittedly sacrificed some low-end texture and integration the UR6 did so well(after some burn-in they become very natural sounding)... but i recently recieved the UR8 and i am happy to find that Grover has brought the percussion back, my first instinct is they sound like a cleaner, more transparent, better focused UR6 with possibly more articulated(UR5-ish) bass, and they still need alot more burn-in which does make a difference on these cables. i will consider starting a new thread in a few weeks after the UR8 have become more familiar._


----------



## DigiPete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Matt_Carter* 
_Dam you guys are bitter. 
 You should all be so honored. 
 I feel indebt to the guy. 
 He's obviously passionate about his craft and just trying to share his world class efforts with those who can truly appreciate them. I'm sure $50 barley covers the cost of the things. 

 Seriously, smarten UP!_

 

Here Here!! 

 Grover delivers a super value in today's audiophile cable market.

 Here cares passionately about audio, and truly takes care of his customers.

 A very rare trait in today's world.

 Thanks Grover!!

 PS I'll keep the UR8 XLRs


----------



## DarkAngel

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *euclid* 
_thanks, my impressions are in agreement, i still have not decided which is better in ultimate transparency, with the UR7 sound comes out of seemingly dead space, completley transparant to me, like the X-1 was. the UR8 is off the bat better at basically everything else, after i get used to the UR8 more i should be able to back to back with the UR7 more._

 

You may initally think the UR7 is more detailed with its greater treble energy balance..........but listen more closely over time and I believe you will find UR8 is actually more detailed but also more relaxed and naturally balanced which makes it less immediately obvious.


----------



## HumanMedia

Firstly I would like to say that the constant effort for improvement and the low upgrade fee is fantastic and an example of someone doing things right.

 Ive read a few threads on the Grover ICs and have not yet taken the plunge (but want to)

 *I would love to know how people would describe the sonic characteristics compared to say VH Audio Pulsars (which I am famiiar with) or even lowly Blue Cables IC's?

 *And how the sound of the balanced version of the Grover IC compares to the single ended version? (and what xlrs are used)


----------



## euclid

i wrote a comparison of the Pulsars and Grovers, the Pulsars are not detailed enough for me, the Blue Jeans cables are pretty good as far as nuetrality but lack air, soundstage and transparancy, they are a good value at $30 but i dont think they would upstage a basic Radio Shack Gold Series IC at half the price. although the pair that i have are in 9ft length so that may be a factor. i have to send a few cables back to Blue Jeans to get length/connector modified, i'm planning on a 3ft pair or two also so if those impressions change ill post about it too. it will be a few weeks though 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HumanMedia* 
_Firstly I would like to say that the constant effort for improvement and the low upgrade fee is fantastic and an example of someone doing things right.

 Ive read a few threads on the Grover ICs and have not yet taken the plunge (but want to)

 *I would love to know how people would describe the sonic characteristics compared to say VH Audio Pulsars (which I am famiiar with) or even lowly Blue Cables IC's?

 *And how the sound of the balanced version of the Grover IC compares to the single ended version? (and what xlrs are used)_


----------



## HumanMedia

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *euclid* 
_i wrote a comparison of the Pulsars and Grovers, the Pulsars are not detailed enough for me, the Blue Jeans cables are pretty good as far as nuetrality but lack air, soundstage and transparancy, they are a good value at $30 but i dont think they would upstage a basic Radio Shack Gold Series IC at half the price. although the pair that i have are in 9ft length so that may be a factor. i have to send a few cables back to Blue Jeans to get length/connector modified, i'm planning on a 3ft pair or two also so if those impressions change ill post about it too. it will be a few weeks though_

 


 Thanks, reading your post now.

 Can anyone comment on the balanced XLR version, its overall merits, and how it compares to the RCA version?


----------



## eyeteeth

So anyone who points out the possible stupidity of something is suffering from sour grapes or is bitter? My opinion isn't really very harsh at all. It's uncomfortable but not untrue and might be shared by the silent majority who can’t be bothered to post. 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *grover* 
_Now remember Eyeteeth you really don't know what you’re talking about since you have been out of the loop a long time now. You have no idea what the UR8 sounds like_

 

Sure I do. It's generations behind UR9. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Fleschler* 
_I owe Eyeteeth nothing and consider him the equivalent of a unpaid spammer. He is just like spammers of great companies in the Yahoo Finance message boards. Please go away. However, as a typical spammer/curmudgeon, he probably won't. "Eyeteeth" moniker in an audio Head-Fi forum, how contradictory._

 








 It's better to be a paid spammer? 
 Of course you're not being paid, you're just helping out a friend who called for assistance. There’s nothing wrong with that as long as your bias is understood. Hey man, I can't hear the forum; I can only see written words, lay-off my crazy name. There are easier targets of greater cornball-ness here in the land of ultimate references. 


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *euclid* 
_im not sure what your position is... except continue to offer the upgrades, but do it for free? we'd never see new revisions._

 

My position is that seven upgrades in eighteen months is insane. The defenders are focusing on the $50 but that's misleading as it minimizes the appearance of the true cost. If any buyer had been unwise enough to follow the recommendation of the manufacturer and his promoters and upgraded each time, they'd have invested more than $700 into the cable. Make no mistake, each newer version is recommended with glowing over-the-top reports that make the previous incarnation seem inadequate and unacceptable. Imagine buying a $3,000 preamp that undergoes seven upgrades in eighteen months at $1000 each, ridiculous.

 Offer the upgrades for free? Of course not. Just employ some self control. Just because you think you've improved the product doesn't mean it must be made available right away. Improve it as many times as you want over the course of a year but offer it to your buyers only on an annual basis. $75 for the annual upgrade seems fair. Did anyone go for each upgrade? The public clamor for a Grover of a year ago seems much diminished now for whatever reason so it seems unlikely that too many went for the too many upgrades.


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tom hankins* 
_I guess since your post implies that the amount of posts and the amount of gear in ones profile have something to do with there opinion being legitimate..._

 

Yeah post count means nothing but previously unknown persons who appear for the sole purpose of heaping praise on a product can't be taken seriously. With someone we know much better like darkangel it would be the case of brand loyalty with a deeper association than is usual. Witness the complete gothic persona to get an idea of the depth of identity with something outside ones self. This persona and these audio associations are compensation for the mundane. Nothing too unusual about it as we all compensate. 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DarkAngel* 
_I have said this before........what I really like about UR8 and other Grover cables is that they make all music, even average rock/alt CDs, sound as good as possible without magnifying thier flaws, seems like a paradox_

 



  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Matt_Carter* 
_Aw Yeess the Bass,
 No longer can anyone say Grovers lack it.

 It's sophisticated with the ability to be just plain silly and fun. How it knows when you want a flat neutral response, and when you want some serious shell shock..? I have, no idea. 

 Just, another sprinkle of magic._

 

People said the previous grovers lacked bass? I don't remember that. I thought they were perfect in every way? So what will UR9 reveal that was lacking in UR8? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *eyeteeth* 
_it is enjoyable watching the goings on surrounding the most messianic of audio elements, the cable._

 

I just find it personally fascinating from a psychological angle how arguably the least important item in the audio system can get so many attributes assigned to it and so much credit applied. It is the messianic element as we mentally invest it with abilities beyond its capabilities; investing it with redemptive properties in the hope of transformation of our audio systems. Like Matt said, it is "magic". 


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Mastergill* 
_Oh boy i don't care about these cables, i just found this UR saga quite amusing and myself i like better when my favorite manufacturers don't upgrade every 4 months. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

It’s 2.5 months. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I don't care about the cable it's self either but the ongoing saga has a fair amount of entertainment value. Its core supporters don’t seem to realize that it’s not a meanness that has uncomfortable questions asked but the story that invites comment. It’s interesting from a psychological viewpoint but also boring as the script seems destined to be unchanged and the characters are repetitious and predictable. 

 Maybe it's rude to interrupt their play and better to sit back and be entertained.


----------



## daba

To put this to rest, why doesn't grover send eyeteeth revisions of his cables? Or anyone who hasn't owned a pair of grovers, that is. Say, grover UR6, UR7, and UR8.

 If grover and his supporters are confident about the cables increasing in quality per revision, then there really should be no opposition to this proposal. What do you say, grover, or anyone else who owns a few revisions of grover cable?


----------



## eyeteeth

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *daba* 
_To put this to rest, why doesn't grover send eyeteeth revisions of his cables?_

 





 Thanks but no thanks. 
 Been there done that.

 Besides, I think I've wasted enough time on cables.
 Hey you guys knock yourself out and have a good time.
 Good luck and enjoy.


----------



## rlmacklin

In answer to query of Human Media:

 from my post on page 3 of this thread

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rlmacklin* 
_There is a pair of balanced UR-8 w/XLRs among my next batch which should arrive later this week. I ordered these as upgrades. Grover said he applied theoretic insight from his single-ended UR-8 design to create the balanced version UR-8, but does not himself run balanced, so he is not sure how it compares to balanced UR-7. He asked me to "compare closely the two" and let him know my impressions, which I will post here also. That testing will come after all UR-8s are burned-in. (Also burning-in some more Violet Z1 power cords, which came a couple days back, on the center and surround components)._

 

I received my next batch of UR-8s including one pair balanced UR-8 w/XLRs and these are currently burning in.


----------



## russdog

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *eyeteeth* 
_




 Thanks but no thanks. 
 Been there done that.

 Besides, I think I've wasted enough time on cables.
 Hey you guys knock yourself out and have a good time.
 Good luck and enjoy. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

So, what are your personal recommendations about the best value in cables?


----------



## Gopher

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *russdog* 
_So, what are your personal recommendations about the best value in cables?_

 

uh oh! Here comes the random 60's black and white photos arranged in no particularly sensical manner, along with similes I either lack the mental capacity or posess too much to comprehend...






 [size=x-small]just teasing[/size]


----------



## euclid

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Gopher* 
_uh oh! Here comes the random 60's black and white photos arranged in no particularly sensical manner, along with similes I either lack the mental capacity or posess too much to comprehend...






 [size=x-small]just teasing[/size]_

 


 LOL

 eyeteeth does have a good point about the frequency for upgrades in general, although there was about a 6-7 month span between the UR6-7 .


----------



## digihead

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *euclid* 
_LOL

 eyeteeth does have a good point about the frequency for upgrades in general, although there was about a 6-7 month span between the UR6-7 ._

 

If you include the UR5-UR7 and include the UR6 to UR6i, then the amount of time between upgrades is miniscule. I like Grovers cables a lot. Have always had a great experience with him and his products. I do think he needs to slow down his upgrades a bit. Once a year perhaps. All that being said, I think the initial listen with the UR8 is the best of the Grovers I have owned so far. I had the UR3, UR5, and UR7. Loved the UR3, the UR5 was too dark, and the UR7 seemed to miss the mark a bit. The UR8 so far is on the money. Burning in right now. Hopefully the cable will settle in to a bit more of a refined sound. If it does then I'll be very happy.


----------



## imported_Matt_Carter

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *eyeteeth* 
_I just find it personally fascinating from a psychological angle how arguably the least important item in the audio system can get so many attributes assigned to it and so much credit applied. It is the messianic element as we mentally invest it with abilities beyond its capabilities; investing it with redemptive properties in the hope of transformation of our audio systems. Like Matt said, it is "magic"._

 

I hope to god this is a joke.





 First,
 Your Ferrari’s only as fast as the road it's driving on.

 Second,
 Such a mind numbing comment puts only your practices into question. 
 Stealing in general, is one thing. Stealing from the generosity of the honest and hard working is another.

 Third,
 You're an idiot


----------



## Thaddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *eyeteeth* 
_I just find it personally fascinating from a psychological angle how arguably the least important item in the audio system can get so many attributes assigned to it and so much credit applied. It is the messianic element as we mentally invest it with abilities beyond its capabilities; investing it with redemptive properties in the hope of transformation of our audio systems. Like Matt said, it is "magic"._

 

I wonder about the same thing every night. Mind-boggling, eh?


----------



## eyeteeth

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *russdog* 
_So, what are your personal recommendations about the best value in cables?_

 

Nothing especially comes to mind. There's a recent thread about favorite El Cheapo cables. Value is a long discussion.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *euclid* 
_eyeteeth does have a good point about the frequency for upgrades in general, although there was about a 6-7 month span between the UR6-7 ._

 

I think you're right. I just divided by 18. Don't pick on Grover as he's a "nice guy". And also, please keep in mind that with Mr. Hoffman's endorsement, he could have added another zero to his cable price and no one would have blinked! He didn't do it. Even if he did it wouldn't have been a criminal act. 







  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Matt_Carter* 
_Third,
 You're an idiot_

 

Matt...don't be too mad. What choice did I have but to quote when confronted by a fella who thinks his cable Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Matt_Carter* 
_knows when you want a flat neutral response_

 













  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Matt_Carter* 
_Stealing in general, is one thing. Stealing from the generosity of the honest and hard working is another._

 

I like it. I can't put my finger on why and I don't quite get it, but I like it. A few more weeks of summer left; good luck in September.


----------



## nelamvr6

I have been using my UR8's for a couple of months now and I am very pleased. I replaced cables that were more than 3 times as expensive as the Grovers and noticed an improvement right away. And they even improved a little over time, though I did cook them in with a FryKleaner. They achieved a steady state after about a week, and have been providing great sound ever since.

 Criticizing Grover for his upgrades seems just dumb to me.

 No one is forcing you to upgrade your cables, but Grover is very generous to offer such an inexpensive upgrade program.

 Does Kimber Kable offer the same sort of upgrades? Audience? Nordost? No. And I definitely consider Grover's cables to be comparable with those cables.

 If you don't want to upgrade, then don't. Just quityerbitchin.


----------



## Spareribs

I'm going to try these UR8 interconnects. Sounds interesting, figuratively that is.


----------



## imported_Matt_Carter

Quote:


 I like it. I can't put my finger on why and I don't quite get it, but I like it. A few more weeks of summer left; good luck in September. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 

K then, let me ask you... Why did Grover send you his IC's free of charge?


----------



## yo2tup2

I got my UR8's yesterday. I have both the UR6.'s with 400+ hours on them and the UR8's with 2 hours on them right now. The UR8's sound noticabley better. Compared to the UR6.'s the UR8's sound exactly as everyone has described...so i'm not going to get into detail since I'd just be repeating what everyone has already said. Well worth the upgrade price for sure. Well worth the $150 price for new.

 I have them burning in right now. Is there much of a change with these cables after burn-in? What did you hear after burnin?


----------



## nelamvr6

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yo2tup2* 
_I got my UR8's yesterday. I have both the UR6.'s with 400+ hours on them and the UR8's with 2 hours on them right now. The UR8's sound noticabley better. Compared to the UR6.'s the UR8's sound exactly as everyone has described...so I'm not going to get into detail since I'd just be repeating what everyone has already said. Well worth the upgrade price for sure. Well worth the $150 price for new.

 I have them burning in right now. Is there much of a change with these cables after burn-in? What did you hear after burnin?_

 

I never listened to mine until after they had spent 24 hours on a FryKleaner. But they did change a little (very little) after I put them in. For the most part the they stabilized after about a week, but I wasn't listening 24/7 so they probably stopped after a few hours.

 The change to me seemed to be mostly in the clarity in the treble range, not that they were muddy, they just seemed to get a little better. The soundstage seemed to acquire just slightly more focus.

 The changes were pretty subtle, but I could detect them. I would say that mine were absolutely excellent as soon as I put them into my system.


----------



## euclid

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nelamvr6* 
_I never listened to mine until after they had spent 24 hours on a FryKleaner. But they did change a little (very little) after I put them in. For the most part the they stabilized after about a week, but I wasn't listening 24/7 so they probably stopped after a few hours.

 The change to me seemed to be mostly in the clarity in the treble range, not that they were muddy, they just seemed to get a little better. The soundstage seemed to acquire just slightly more focus.

 The changes were pretty subtle, but I could detect them. I would say that mine were absolutely excellent as soon as I put them into my system._

 


 i really havnt devoted enough time as i'd like to listening to my UR8 so i still consider them fairly "virgin" i am hoping these specific areas improve alittle so its good to hear your experience. thanks for posting.


----------



## grover

In my experience cables are not the least important part in the sound but the most important. The signature imposed by the cables is present no matter the electronics. This fact is obvious the better the electronics, and the listening environment. This includes all cables phono, line, and speaker. The differences just between speaker cables are amazing. I could go through all the UR revisions and describe the changes but I'll list the improvements of the UR8 over the UR7. First, the largest change is in the soundstage; the UR8 has at least a 100% larger and more open stage. The focus of the instruments and placement is so much better. Secondly, the bass as Matt and others have commented is just vastly superior. Thirdly, the midrange is more accurate and so much more real compared to the UR7. Voices take on a realism that is so much more satisfying. And fourthly, the high frequencies are linear placing the instruments in their proper place among the lower frequency instruments. The reflection on all this is that it is very difficult to make a truly satisfying cable. The UR series has gone through incredible changes both in gauge and selection of materials. I am very pleased to have the flexibility to be able to change my cable to seek the perfection I so desire. My patent pending design is unique and revolutionary, and soon I will be able to provide the Patent Number so all who are interested will be able to see and read all about my design. Yes, I know, too many changes. I could have just listed all as UR with out the number but wouldn’t that be dishonest. It would leave so many without the best cable, and without the option of upgrading. Happy listening.


----------



## Nospam

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *euclid* 
_i wrote a comparison of the Pulsars and Grovers, the Pulsars are not detailed enough for me, the Blue Jeans cables are pretty good as far as nuetrality but lack air, soundstage and transparancy, they are a good value at $30 but i dont think they would upstage a basic Radio Shack Gold Series IC at half the price. although the pair that i have are in 9ft length so that may be a factor..._

 

So Blue Jeans cables aren't any better than Rat Shack cables?

 It's quite interesting how different people can have such different opinions about cables.

 When a friend and I conducted a casual listening session last year (sorry, not a scientific any-blind test what-so-ever), we both preferred the Blue Jeans cables over the Grover cables by a very slight margin. 

 Source was ALAC files over Airport Express to DAC-1, eventually ending in some very expensive JBL speakers (can't recall the model).

 I think this just points out the futility of trying to determine which is the "BEST" cable. Despite all these exaggerated claims of "significantly better" sound, the reality is that the differences are usually very subtle.

 If people want to spend $50 or $500 for that, more power to them. It's their money. Newcomers just need to be aware that they may be hard pressed to hear this "significant improvement" from one cable to another (although placebo effect is quite powerful).


----------



## HumanMedia

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rlmacklin* 
_I received my next batch of UR-8s including one pair balanced UR-8 w/XLRs and these are currently burning in._

 


 Any update on how these sound, generally and in comparison to the single ended UR-8s?


----------



## rlmacklin

Was out of state to a family reunion for most of a week and disconnected the audio system from power for that period. Back now, so that batch of UR-8s including the balanced are in use again and finishing burn-in. No further changes in sonics noticed, so they may be "done."
 Hope to get to the balanced UR-8 vs. balanced UR-7 testing, as requested by Grover, over this weekend.
 A balanced UR-7 which was in my system for some months (before receiving balanced UR-8) will be used for the testing/comparison.
 Denon DVD-3910 source is single-ended. Intend to use UR-8s w/RCAs out of the Denon 3910 to feed front left and right channel signals to PS Audio PCA-2 (fully balanced preamp) throughout the testing and alternate use of the UR-8 and UR-7 balanced cables between that preamp and PS Audio HCA-2 (fully balanced) power amp.


----------



## daba

rlmacklin: Do you plan on doing the test yourself, or having someone aide you in a blind test?


----------



## rlmacklin

I plan to use tape of some sort to connect each pair together at the normal separation distance and then cover the "grover u7" and "grover u8" labels.

 I will have someone else give a letter or other designation of their choice to each pair, so that I will not know which is which through visual means.

 Likely I will be changing the pairs in and out myself for the testing however.

 I am open to forum sugestions...


----------



## rlmacklin

Comparison listening between balanced UR-7 and balanced UR-8, etc.

 In preparation I had to remove SDA interconnect cable from between Polk Audio SDA-1 loudspeakers and then move amplifier ends of Grover UR speaker cables from Odyssey (common ground amp) to PS Audio HCA-2 (balanced, non-common ground amp).

 I used single-ended Grover UR-8 ICs w/RCAs from front left and right channel outs of Denon DVD-3910 to inputs of PS Audio PCA-2 fully balanced preamp, then either balanced Grover UR-7s or balanced Grover UR-8s w/XLRs to PS Audio HCA-2, with Grover UR speaker cables to Polk Audio SDA-1 loudspeakers with SDA interconnect cable removed. (This is necessary as Polk SDA-1s can only run both the stereo and dimensional driver arrays in the speakers when using the SDA interconnect cable and with a common ground amplifier. The balanced PS Audio HCA-2 is a non-common ground amplifier. 
 So each loudspeaker was running one array of two midbass drivers and one tweeter and a 12" "passsive radiator." (The unused-for-this-testing additional driver array in each speaker would provide "crosstalk cancellation." )

 All components involved in this testing were using Black Sand Cable Violet Z1 power cords.

 Each balanced cable pair was taped together at center at a normal separation distance and then the Grover U7 and Grover U8 labels were covered. I took the cables in this condition and had a friend designate a symbol for each cable pair. The symbols chosen were " O " and " X " which were marked on inside of a folded label affixed on the center tape (so I could not see them without opening the folded portion).

 When either balanced cable pair was placed between preamp and amp, the covered Grover label was at the amp end as this was always the burn-in and use orientation for both balanced pairs prior to this testing.

 Denon 3910 was set to stereo layer of SACDs, its digital/video/display circuits were turned off and I also set "source direct" output configuration to eliminate any possibility of DSD conversion to PCM, to ensure best possible analog signal quality.

 I have earlier reported clear preference for single ended UR-8 over single-ended UR-7, so I chose to use single-ended Grover UR-8s from source to preamp for testing, again for best possible analog signal into the balanced preamp and the balanced cables from preamp to amp.

 Music included tracks or full compositions from: 
 Bob Marley "Songs of Freedom" CD #3 and #4
 Jimi Hendrix "Blues" CD
 Dave Matthews and Tim Reynolds "Live at Luther College" CD
 Bela Fleck and Flecktones "Left of Cool" and "Hidden Land" CDs
 Bela Fleck "Tales From the Acoustic Planet vol. 2" DVD-A
 Alison Krauss and Union Station "Live" SACD
 Nickel Creek "Nickel Creek" SACD
 Yo-Yo Ma, Edgar Meyer, Mark O'Connor "Appalachian Journey" SACD
 Bach: Unaccompanied Cello Suites Performed on Double Bass CD 
 - Edgar Meyer
 Moody Blues SACDs
 Mike Oldfield "Tubular Bells" SACD
 Mozart "4 Horn Concertos" - Civil/Marriner SACD
 Bach Sonatas and Partitas for Violin
 - Grumiaux remastered CD
 - Milstein (mature) CD
 - Julia Fisher SACD
 Beethoven Symphony 7 - Carlos Kleiber SACD
 Mahler Symphony 6 - Ivan Fischer SACD
 Dvorak Symphony 9 ("New World") - Jarvi SACD

 I sometimes alternated the pairs of balanced cables after a particular song or work; sometimes I selected one pair at random and listened at length over several hours before switching to the other pair.


Results
 Bottom line:
 The balanced UR-8 does have noticeable improvement over the balanced UR-7, but it is less obviously apparent than that between the single-ended RCA versions (which is more "in your face").

 With a single-ended UR-8 signal path up to the fully balanced preamp, balanced UR-7 ICs into the fully balanced amp produce dynamics, frequency extension, and imaging I would describe as very good. Replacing balanced UR-7 with balanced UR-8 results in somewhat increased soundstage dimensions, particularly depth. I noticed better low frequency extension and tighter low frequencies. The midrange and treble also seem somewhat cleaner and clearer and more realistic sounding. I hear the tonal balance of the balanced UR-8 as more neutral and accurate, wheras the balanced UR-7s seem to have slightly higher percentage of musical energy in the treble range. I think the balanced Grover UR-8 captures the sustain and decay phases of notes more completely than balanced UR-7 and does convey the feeling and emotion of the music better.

 I did not notice any particular instances of "I never heard that before" between the balanced Grover versions, whereas this occurred more than several times between the single-ended versions in testing some months ago.
 My conjecture is that the common mode noise elimination in the fully balanced components and in the single run of balanced version Grover ICs connecting them is responsible for lessening the difference between the balanced Grover IC versions as compared to the more readily obvious improvement between the single-ended IC versions.


 I briefly tried running full signal path (single-ended and balanced) UR-7s vs. full signal path UR-8s and this was "no contest" with UR-8s the clear winners.

 I also tried a configuration with:
 [single-ended UR-8 from source to Modwright preamp w/Bendix 6900 tubes and single-ended UR-8s to the balanced PS Audio HCA-2 amp] versus [single-ended UR-8 from source to balanced PS Audio PCA-2 preamp and balanced UR-8 to balanced PS Audio HCA-2 amp].
 Here I could alternate using the mute buttons of both preamps' remote controls to alternate between these setups.
 I found the Modwright preamp w/Bendix 6900 tubes and single-ended Grover UR-8s into PS Audio HCA-2 to have more "holographic" imaging, a slightly larger, deeper and better focused soundstage, and more natural tonality, but the combo with the two balanced PS Audio components and balanced Grover UR-8 was very good (and closer to the tubed Modwright setup than I might have expected).


----------



## BrianS

thanks for your impressions


----------



## DarkAngel

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rlmacklin* 
_Comparison listening between balanced UR-7 and balanced UR-8, etc.

 I have earlier reported clear preference for single ended UR-8 over single-ended UR-7, so I chose to use single-ended Grover UR-8s from source to preamp for testing, again for best possible analog signal into the balanced preamp and the balanced cables from preamp to amp.

 With a single-ended UR-8 signal path up to the fully balanced preamp, balanced UR-7 ICs into the fully balanced amp produce dynamics, frequency extension, and imaging I would describe as very good. Replacing balanced UR-7 with balanced UR-8 results in somewhat increased soundstage dimensions, particularly depth. I noticed better low frequency extension and tighter low frequencies. The midrange and treble also seem somewhat cleaner and clearer and more realistic sounding. I hear the tonal balance of the balanced UR-8 as more neutral and accurate, wheras the balanced UR-7s seem to have slightly higher percentage of musical energy in the treble range. I think the balanced Grover UR-8 captures the sustain and decay phases of notes more completely than balanced UR-7 and does convey the feeling and emotion of the music better.

 I did not notice any particular instances of "I never heard that before" between the balanced Grover versions, whereas this occurred more than several times between the single-ended versions in testing some months ago.
 My conjecture is that the common mode noise elimination in the fully balanced components and in the single run of balanced version Grover ICs connecting them is responsible for lessening the difference between the balanced Grover IC versions as compared to the more readily obvious improvement between the single-ended IC versions.

 I briefly tried running full signal path (single-ended and balanced) UR-7s vs. full signal path UR-8s and this was "no contest" with UR-8s the clear winners._

 

The single most obvious improvement or UR8 for me is the bass extension, authority. drive in the low end. Really expands dynamic range of sound and adds excitement and drama, music comes to life like someone secretly added subwoofer to system to fill in low end.


----------



## HumanMedia

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rlmacklin* 
_Comparison listening between balanced UR-7 and balanced UR-8, etc._

 


* rlmacklin* Thank you. Great job and most informative.


----------



## Mastergill

A few weeks/months ago Grover offered me to try his new cable, UR8. I said no problem it can be fun and instructive for me as i've always wondered how these "DIY" cables that are often discussed and praised on Head-Fi compare against established "big names" like Cardas or Nordost.

 So, i received last week a 0.5 meter interconnnect with RCA to replace my Cardas Golden Reference between source and pre/headamp. I had the idea to keep the cable from the start in the setup and try to live with it for 3 to 4 weeks straight and then switch back to the Cardas to be sure about my impressions.

 Oh boy, i missed the Cardas after only a couple of hours listening with UR8s. These are absolutely not in the same league, i'm sorry.
 No amount of "break-in" will change a huge gap like that but for the sake of the 'break-in mafia' i decided to keep listening to the cable the whole week, 1 hour with the UR8, then 2 hours with GR per session because i'm listening first for my pleasure and with UR8 i was missing too much the GR's immaculate musicality.

 Conclusion: the Grover UR8 is a good cable, well balanced with no particular emphasis, it's not bright, quite neutral but realistically it's in the same league than a Cardas Quadlink or something like that.

 What Cardas GR brings to the table that UR8 can only dream of is ultimate transparency, real 3D feeling, perfect separation between different source sound (focus), tonal accuracy, air, textures, much deeper bass, harmonics decay...I mean, the comparison is not fair. Cardas GR can annihilate the notion of cables, the music flow without restriction, rich and full. The Grover UR8 is a good cable, but much much less refined and quite congested compared to the GR.

 I'm sorry Grover, having exchanged a few PMs with you i'm sure you're a cool guy and i want to thank you again for your offer but you have to understand that 'one man business operation' like yours and many others who pop up like mushroom thank to the internet cannot compete with established company like Cardas. Cut and dissect a Golden Ref. interconnect and you'll see what i mean. But i'm sure you know that.

 And i still maintain that these constant upgrades are a very questionable business practice, i've calculated $490 total cost if you're following the 'upgrade path' since the beginning. You can get a used Cardas Golden Ref. for this price and be happy for the next 15 years if not more.


----------



## grover

Master Gill, It was very nice of you to listen to my UR8's. I haven't heard the Cardas GR's and am looking forward to listening to them. My UR8's have been found overall cleaner in comparisons to the Cardas Neutral References. Posted is an email from our beloved 909. 

 From : <909> 
 Sent : Thursday, August 17, 2006 11:53 PM 
 To : "grover huffman" <groverhuffman@hotmail.com> 
 Subject : UR8 

 Inbox 


 Hi Grover:

 Hope all is well. I would like to thank you again for your generosity and thoughtfulness for donating to the meet raffle. It was greatly appreciated.

 Believe it or not, I won your RCA interconnects for the second time. I've been using them primarily since the meet and comparing them against my Cardas Neutral Reference cables and I must admit that I am very impressed and pleased. On initial impressions, I find them to be superior with better clarity, detail, and separation. The Neutral References seem slightly fuzzy in comparison, yet they do have a fuller and warmer sonic character. I think you've hit pay dirt with your latest offering. I mentioned my impressions in the meet thread too. If you haven't seen the thread, you should check it out. 

 On a side note, I've been toying with the idea of making my first attempt at constructing a cable, possibly a mini RCA.

 Again, thank you. 

 Kind regards,
 David


*POST EDITED BY MODERATOR TO DELETE PERSONAL INFORMATION*


----------



## nelamvr6

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Mastergill* 
_A few weeks/months ago Grover offered me to try his new cable, UR8. I said no problem it can be fun and instructive for me as i've always wondered how these "DIY" cables that are often discussed and praised on Head-Fi compare against established "big names" like Cardas or Nordost.

 So, i received last week a 0.5 meter interconnnect with RCA to replace my Cardas Golden Reference between source and pre/headamp. I had the idea to keep the cable from the start in the setup and try to live with it for 3 to 4 weeks straight and then switch back to the Cardas to be sure about my impressions.

 Oh boy, i missed the Cardas after only a couple of hours listening with UR8s. These are absolutely not in the same league, i'm sorry.
 No amount of "break-in" will change a huge gap like that but for the sake of the 'break-in mafia' i decided to keep listening to the cable the whole week, 1 hour with the UR8, then 2 hours with GR per session because i'm listening first for my pleasure and with UR8 i was missing too much the GR's immaculate musicality.

 Conclusion: the Grover UR8 is a good cable, well balanced with no particular emphasis, it's not bright, quite neutral but realistically it's in the same league than a Cardas Quadlink or something like that.

 What Cardas GR brings to the table that UR8 can only dream of is ultimate transparency, real 3D feeling, perfect separation between different source sound (focus), tonal accuracy, air, textures, much deeper bass, harmonics decay...I mean, the comparison is not fair. Cardas GR can annihilate the notion of cables, the music flow without restriction, rich and full. The Grover UR8 is a good cable, but much much less refined and quite congested compared to the GR.

 I'm sorry Grover, having exchanged a few PMs with you i'm sure you're a cool guy and i want to thank you again for your offer but you have to understand that 'one man business operation' like yours and many others who pop up like mushroom thank to the internet cannot compete with established company like Cardas. Cut and dissect a Golden Ref. interconnect and you'll see what i mean. But i'm sure you know that.

 And i still maintain that these constant upgrades are a very questionable business practice, i've calculated $490 total cost if you're following the 'upgrade path' since the beginning. You can get a used Cardas Golden Ref. for this price and be happy for the next 15 years if not more._

 


 Hmmmm..... This doesn't jibe with my experience of the Grovers. Especially since you specifically mentioned transparency.

 But I haven't compared them to the particular cable you mentioned. 

 I did notice that you state in your profile "Only Cardas since 1988". I trust you're setting aside your preconceptions for this comparison?

 I suppose it would be impossible to please everyone. If you're happy with your Cardas and I'm happy with my Grovers, well, I guess we're both happy!


----------



## Mastergill

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nelamvr6* 
_I did notice that you state in your profile "Only Cardas since 1988". I trust you're setting aside your preconceptions for this comparison?_

 

When you appreciate a product since many many years it's true that you're inevitably a bit biased at the end but it doesn't mean also that you cannot keep an open mind. I wasted enough money with competitors and i'm so glad i discovered Cardas Audio a long time ago.


 I don't want to sound elitist you know, but Golden Ref. (and N.R.) cables are made to be used with the very best components money can buy. Your cable will only be as good as the signal it's fed with. People should not spend lot of money into expensive cables before everything else is top-notch. Too many guys around have overkill cabling IMO. And so it can be easy to criticize an expensive cable: think about it, the cable can be underused.


----------



## 909

I haven't really spent any serious time comparing the UR8s to the Cardas NR cables. I did find the UR8s to be more to my liking than any other previous UR verison. I suspose within the next few weeks I'll A/B these cables to see if my initial impressions haven't changed.


----------



## sberger

you guys are kidding, right? the cardas gr 's are what, almost 3 times more than the grover's. geez, i hope they sound better. 

 fwiw, i love grover's stuff. i do agree that the constant upgrading is probably not the best business practice, but i know he offers trade in and on the whole i find him a very good and honest guy.


----------



## DarkAngel

Cardas makes great cables, not at all surprised some would prefer them in thier system..........matter of personal taste and system synergy.

 I used to use Cardas cables up until @2000 when I began switching to Acoustic Zen cable products, still using AZ Hologram II speaker cables. Recently have been very impressed and own Grover UR ICs and also like Bogdan gold/silver Spirit ICs for certain applications......at much lower prices than before, life is good! 
 (I would like some AZ Silver Reference II ICs to try, but cost too much now for my tastes)

  Quote:


 you guys are kidding, right? the cardas gr 's are what, almost 3 times more than the grover's. geez, i hope they sound better. 
 

Cardas Golden Reference 1M RCA pair - $1200
 Grover UR8 1M RCA pair - $150


----------



## sberger

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DarkAngel* 
_Cardas Golden Reference 1M RCA pair - $1200
 Grover UR8 1M RCA pair - $150_

 

heh heh heh...i didn't realize they were THAT MUCH 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 i checked a'gon and saw the used prices. figured folks were selling for close to the retail. boy, was i wrong.

 'nuff said on the comparison...geez.


----------



## DarkAngel

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DarkAngel* 
_Cardas Golden Reference 1M RCA pair - $1200
 Grover UR8 1M RCA pair - $150_

 

*Price correction:*
 Cardas GR 1M RCA pair - $950

 ($1200 is for 1.5M pair)


----------



## NotoriousBIG_PJ

I found v2 of grovers orginal cables to sound more realistic, transparent and neutral than cardas neutral refs. His later versions only got better.

 Biggie.


----------



## Mastergill

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sberger* 
_ you guys are kidding, right? the cardas gr 's are what, almost 3 times more than the grover's. geez, i hope they sound better._

 

Yeah, some are really kidding man. Nothing better than trying for yourself and going back to what has been posted in this thread.
 BTW, unfortunately with hi-fi stuff price means almost nothing especially with cables.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *NotoriousBIG_PJ* 
_I found v2 of grovers orginal cables to sound more realistic, transparent and neutral than cardas neutral refs. His later versions only got better._

 

Hey Biggie, which cables you didn't find better than NR? At least Monster i hope.


----------



## NotoriousBIG_PJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Mastergill* 
_
 Hey Biggie, which cables you didn't find better than NR? At least Monster i hope. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

VD audition, a pair of diy cables I made, homegrown silver lace, magnet wire interconnects, stock interconnects, educational research ic's

 Biggie.


----------



## sbulack

I (as usual, fashionably late) just wrote to Grover to arrange an upgrade of a UR6 RCA pair that I bought back in March to a UR8 pair, and Grover responded that he has just released the new "Grover S" cables, which he describes as "a new design that outperforms the UR8". So, I placed an order for BOTH the originally intended UR6->UR8 upgrade PLUS a new Grover S pair. I'm finally able to get in on a new Grover release on the early end of things, and I couldn't be happier or more expectant.


----------



## yo2tup2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sbulack* 
_I (as usual, fashionably late) just wrote to Grover to arrange an upgrade of a UR6 RCA pair that I bought back in March to a UR8 pair, and Grover responded that he has just released the new "Grover S" cables, which he describes as "a new design that outperforms the UR8". So, I placed an order for BOTH the originally intended UR6->UR8 upgrade PLUS a new Grover S pair. I'm finally able to get in on a new Grover release on the early end of things, and I couldn't be happier or more expectant._

 

another new grover release! i'm guessing the UR's can't be upgraded to the new S?

 I've been happy with all the grover revisions i've had/have (currently using the UR8). All these revisions/new releases are great since the cable is getting better, but also a little annoying current owners! well for me at least. My next ic upgrade will probably be to something other than the Grovers, I can't take all these new releases any more


----------



## sberger

I asked about upgrades, and according to Grover, old IC's can be upgraded to "close to the S's".


----------



## digihead

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yo2tup2* 
_





 another new grover release! i'm guessing the UR's can't be upgraded to the new S?

 I've been happy with all the grover revisions i've had/have (currently using the UR8). All these revisions/new releases are great since the cable is getting better, but also a little annoying current owners! well for me at least. My next ic upgrade will probably be to something other than the Grovers, I can't take all these new releases any more_

 

Precisely the reason I moved away from the Grovers...always an upgrade, each upgrade is one that 'blows the previous versions away', until the next upgrade comes along two months later. $50 here, $50 there it all adds up. They are great ICs for the price, but not when you consider frequent upgrades. The other issue is that unless you have multiple pairs, you're without your ICs until they return from being upgraded. Just got to be too much after a while.


----------



## sbulack

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yo2tup2* 
_... I can't take all these new releases any more ..._

 

There's another way to manage all the releases other than to change to another make of IC (if, that is, you're basically happy with the sound through the Grover IC). For the past few years, I've done only an annual purchase or upgrade (even though I've read about EVERY release and all of the improvements offered by each - a LOT of fun, BTW). So, if taking ALL of the new releases is too much, choose to take them at a rate at which you can be happy to get them. Think of each release as an opportunity, not an obligation. Given the history of the Grover IC's, the substantive improvements seem to remain over time, with the features unique to each release being less substantive flavor variations. So, skipping a number of releases between upgrades is not likely to result in missing out on an important improvement. If, on the other hand, you're curious about what your rig could sound like with other makes of IC's - well, scratching those itches is a LOT of what makes this hobby of ours worth the exploration. I, for one, am kept amazed at the quality and innovation that Grover is willing to make available to us, and at his generosity to us which is expressed in the low prices for which he is willing to do it.


----------



## grover

I knew you guys would be mad, but when you hear the S's you will be more forgiving. I'm petty sure that this will be the cable for some time (know I've said this before). I can't undo what's gone before but I can offer this incredible cable to those that wish to get it, and make it very reasonable. What can I say, I can still make the UR8 but why, I have to believe in my product and will only sell the cable I use. Not that the UR8 is not a great cable, the S is just better. For my customers that have stood by me I'll offer this cable for $75 a 1-meter RCA pair. If some one is extremely annoyed with me email me and maybe I can make it right. If there's nothing I can do to make it right, my sincere apologies, but it is my hope I can.


----------



## grover

guy's here is the first email I have received about the S cables, does this help. 

 From : Greg <> 
 Sent : Monday, November 6, 2006 8:38 PM 
 To : groverhuffman@hotmail.com 
 CC : 
 Subject : wow 

 | | | Inbox 


 Grover, Are you kidding me? I have never heard anything like this in my 30yrs of listening. I think the jaded cynic in me didn't want to believe that one could get this quality at this low of a price. However, your cable is in fact replacing one that is $1200, and the bitch of it is that it isn't even close. I am going to resist the urge to shower you with superlatives and just say that I need to place a larger order. Please email prices for all of your cables incl. spkr per foot and rca i/c's as well, not to mention phono cable (your last email abt your phono cable is really resonating now!) and power cords if you've ventured there. .Thank you, your work is truly special. Greg


----------



## BrianS

that is generous grover, i will consider you for my next IC.

 Brian


----------



## nelamvr6

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *digihead* 
_Precisely the reason I moved away from the Grovers...always an upgrade, each upgrade is one that 'blows the previous versions away', until the next upgrade comes along two months later. $50 here, $50 there it all adds up. They are great ICs for the price, but not when you consider frequent upgrades. The other issue is that unless you have multiple pairs, you're without your ICs until they return from being upgraded. Just got to be too much after a while._

 


 I simply cannot understand this mindset.

 You are not obliged to update every time Grover improves his product. He is very generous to offer an upgrade program.

 I am very happy with the sound of my UR-8's, I have no plans to upgrade anytime soon. But I won't be criticizing Grover for striving to better his offerings.

 Are you this critical of other things in your life? Do you get mad if the maker of your car offers an improved version every year? How about the maker of your TV set? Do you feel some sort of obligation every time the maker of your computer releases a new and better model? Do you move to a brand that doesn't strive to improve it's product as much?


----------



## sbulack

I'll repeat Greg's question: have you ventured into the area of Power Cords? If so, I'd be mighty interested to try one of your Power Cord offerings. I've never read any reviews or impressions of a Grover Power Cord, so I've just taken it that you don't offer Power Cords for sale. But, I've never asked, so, what about Power Cords, Grover? I'd be very interested to know your thoughts and intentions about them if you are inclined to share those with us.


----------



## digihead

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nelamvr6* 
_I simply cannot understand this mindset.

 You are not obliged to update every time Grover improves his product. He is very generous to offer an upgrade program.

 I am very happy with the sound of my UR-8's, I have no plans to upgrade anytime soon. But I won't be criticizing Grover for striving to better his offerings.

 Are you this critical of other things in your life? Do you get mad if the maker of your car offers an improved version every year? How about the maker of your TV set? Do you feel some sort of obligation every time the maker of your computer releases a new and better model? Do you move to a brand that doesn't strive to improve it's product as much?_

 

First of all, I am not mad about anything. I did not intend my comments as an attack and after re-reading them, it seems you are the one on the offensive. 

 Are you this critical of all the people in your life? Do you get mad if someone wants to change or upgrade other things in their life? 

 I believe that a company can and should improve their product. There is a MUCH bigger difference between the average time a company comes out with an upgrade and the timing that Grover comes out with his upgrades. Also, companies typically don't come out immediately with an upgraded product that 'blows away' the previous product from three months ago that 'blew away' the product from three months ago, etc. Take Cardas as an example. They recently came out with the Golden Presence IC. It was intended to fit between the Golden Reference and Neutral Reference cables. It has its place in the lineup and is not positioned to 'blow away' any of their other cables.

 Why did I upgrade? Why does anyone upgrade? Its audio, and if there is something that 'blows away' what I am currently hearing then I'd like to hear it. It just gets old when it happens over and over and over again. Is it my issue for upgrading - sure. Obviously this is a part of Grovers business model to have current owners upgrade. The upgrade price and program is fairly priced and I have no problem with Grover, his products, or my interactions with him on a business or personal level. He makes some great cables. He is however alienating some of his fans by pushing out constant upgrades that are always 'the best cable I have produced'. 

 Now you have the 'S' series that basically means the previous owners won't be able to continue the upgrade path unless they are deemed as an loyal follower unhappy with the upgrade path and eligible for the $75 price point. Is it nice of Grover to offer the $75 upgrade? Sure, very generous. 

 The sick part is, I actually want to hear the 'S' version and might actually see about the $75 deal. Basically all this goes to say is that Grover plays well into the hands of those with the audio sickness that always want to know how they can take their system to the next level.


----------



## sbulack

If the joy of listening to the music I love through a Grover IC is a sickness, then I don't wanna be well. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I know what you mean. I'm just havin' a little fun.


----------



## foo_me

Can't say I'm much of a believer in cables making much of a difference, but i must say...this is a huge difference! 
 Got a new wavelength cosine dac connecting to ES-1 to HE90...so i was originally going to try some silver interconnects. 
 But I had some old grover sr200s rca ICs and upgraded them to the new UR S cables. Unbelievable difference.
 Not very good at doing reviews, but all i can say is that there seemed to be a veil that was lifted after trying his new cables. soundstage opened up, highs much clearer...not sure about the bass yet. 

 Some caveats are that this is coming from a very old SR200 and my cable experience is very limited, but still...just listening to this setup without by itself and without even any burn-in...the cables made a huge difference. 

 Just want to thank grover for this upgrade...nice that he lives so close that I could get them so quickly


----------



## Gopher

Who else has taken advantage of the $75 S? I'm considering buying one right after finals (don't want to invite a distraction until then) and want some feedback!


----------



## sbulack

The Grover S cables I ordered just arrived today. What better way could there be to replace all of the fatigue and tensions of the week with renewed vitality and eager expectancy than to come home to find a new set of Grover cables? I haven't even got them installed in my rig yet, but I will very soon. As an extra treat, I sent back my U6 pair for upgrade to a U8 pair, which was packaged and shipped along with the S pair. What an end of week and weekend I'm going to have!!! These ought to be burned in nicely for the long holiday weekend coming up next week. Man, O' Man Alive!!!

 I'm guessing that the only reason DA hasn't posted about the S cables yet is that it's taking time for them to come back from deep cryo.


----------



## DeeJayBump

Is Grover offering the $75 upgrade for folks with earlier UR iterations, or is that offer only for those who have the most current UR version prior to the introduction of the S? Does anyone know?


----------



## Gopher

my impression is its available to all customers of the more recent cables. Maybe not so much the origional MK I/II/III but the SR/Empress/UR series... I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong though...


----------



## DeeJayBump

That's my question, really. What's considered more recent URs? I have UR6. cables--are these considered recent enough to qualify for the upgrade/replace to S version? Guess the only way to find out for sure is to contact Grover.

 EDIT: sent a PM to grover asking for clarification on which owners can take advantage of the S upgrade offer.


----------



## jp11801

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nelamvr6* 
_I simply cannot understand this mindset.

 You are not obliged to update every time Grover improves his product. He is very generous to offer an upgrade program.

 I am very happy with the sound of my UR-8's, I have no plans to upgrade anytime soon. But I won't be criticizing Grover for striving to better his offerings.

 Are you this critical of other things in your life? Do you get mad if the maker of your car offers an improved version every year? How about the maker of your TV set? Do you feel some sort of obligation every time the maker of your computer releases a new and better model? Do you move to a brand that doesn't strive to improve it's product as much?_

 

It might be nice if there were not 6 variations in a year or so 5, 5., 6, 7, 8 and S

 Car manufactures date cars yearly they release new versions every 3-5 years. Conusmer electronics are similar with many models lasting years. 

 While I have no issue with anyone striving for better I like a few folks have a cable that is about a year old and fairly worthless in a FS forum because I am now 5 releases in the dust.

 Grovers are great values but it would be great if he could beta test on his dime then release a product with some stability. So if I want to "upgrade" a $150 cable now costs me $225.


----------



## greenhorn

I imagine materials for an upgrade don't cost much, it should be mainly the work which is paid for a $50 upgrade.

 A possible solution (for not making those who paid once $150 and are then pushed to upgrade 5 times a year making the cable final cost $5-600) would be that new cables be sent to them without asking them to return the old ones.

 Maybe not for $50, but for $60 or $70 (because the manufacturer would not be able to reuse anything from the old cable, but he will have to buy some more parts instead).


----------



## sbulack

I've installed the Grover S cables into my main rig at home, and I've been running audio through them (and listening normally) for only about 8 hours at this point, and I've got enough experience with breaking in cables (and Grover cables, specifically) to know that I don't yet know the fullness of what this cable will deliver when its sound fully stabilizes with use. However, I also know that the first impressions with Grover's cables do NOT change - just that all the great characteristics heard up front get better. So, here are some things I CAN say at this point.

 I've been running the Grover UR6 and the Bogdan Gold Silver Spirit since March - and have been truly savoring the diaphanous sound of the Bogdan IC (which fills in at the center to deliver more solidity as it settles in) and the more earthy, visceral sound of the UR6 (which becomes airier at the edges to deliver more irridescence and shimmer as it settles in). Both amazing cables delivering downright generous value. In my rig it is very easy to switch between them when my ear craves what either does best.

 I was expecting the S cables to be another step in quality along the, to date, earthy, solid Grover sound - and it is, PLUS:
 The Grover S cable takes a very nice step toward one IC to do what my ear loves best from each of the previous Grover cables and the Bogdan GSS. My first real impression from the S cables is that they deliver the most delicious wash of temporal and harmonic structure from the sounds that I love that my ears have ever savored. For example, each note in a melody composed of skillfully coaxed electric guitar strings conveys the nuances, complexities and temporal development of a gently undulating, subtly shimmering sonic curtain. And all of the notes taken together form the most gorgeous harmonically and temporally rich sonic structure that my ears have savored, ever. This S cable, so far, has neither a fixed "earthy" nor a fixed "celestial" or "diaphanous" sound. Earthy sounds like unadorned human voice are quite palpable and viscerally present. Unearthy (or even other-worldly) sounds like transporting electronic constructions can be amazingly diaphanous - like the sonic version of laser holography through a vapor phase medium. One of my favorite tracks for the juxtaposition of the earthy and the unearthy is the Track "Eternal Odyssey" from the Delerium album "Chimera". It starts with the sounds of both faint electronic chimes coming from the distance, AND the sound of heavy raindrops falling languidly upon flagstones on a cool summer day. With the Grover S cables, at the same time that I'm locking onto the visceral sound of the raindrops (with the associated sensations of feeling the cool, moist air on my face and smelling the flagstones), the electronica is transporting me to faraway mythical mountaintops where mystical chime sounds waft from an unearthly monastery - one can only imagine the consciousness-altering disciplines practiced by its inhabitants - it's a mini travel vacaton in a track. Just an amazing experience - that the same cable can provide so much, simultaneously, of the combined listening experiences of my previously favorite TWO cables. I'm not comparing the sound qualities of the Grover S to the Bogdan at this point - since the S cables are so new to my rig - but I'm comparing my listening experiences with the two - since these are early impressions, very subjective and reflective of my listening idiosyncrasies, I'm sure. I have to say that, so far, I'm really impressed in ways that I was not expecting to be.


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## yo2tup2

Grovers offer was too good to refuse, so i've been playing with the Grover S's for a couple weeks now. These are a nice improvement from the UR8's. The difference isn't huge, but its there and its welcomed. Compared to the UR8's, I'm hearing tighter bass, a little more crisper highs (for lack of a better term), and better image separation. The Grover house sound is still there like the UR revisions, but overall i feel that these S cables take a small step into the "real" sounding direction making the UR8's sound more "hifi."


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## Audio Addict

I also just ordered the new "S" cable and look forward to comparing it with the UR8.


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## nelamvr6

You guys have fun, but I am more than satisfied with my UR-8's, I'm standing pat for the forseeable future, perhaps years.


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## DigiPete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sbulack* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So, here are some things I CAN say at this point.

 This S cable, so far, has neither a fixed "earthy" nor a fixed "celestial" or "diaphanous" sound. Earthy sounds like unadorned human voice are quite palpable and viscerally present. Unearthy (or even other-worldly) sounds like transporting electronic constructions can be amazingly diaphanous - like the sonic version of laser holography through a vapor phase medium. ._

 

LOL - interesting descriptions... were you on acid


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## greenhorn

Actually the poem has been upgra... I mean edited 2 days after its premiere.


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## sbulack

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DigiPete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_LOL - interesting descriptions... were you on acid
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I'm exploring farther reaches of the spaces of human creativity than that stuff allows. I'm riding the sound of my favorite music as it is presented through the Grover S cable. And O' what a journey it continues to be. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I've ordered a second set of Grover S cables. I've already decided that I'd like to savor the gorgeous wash of harmonic structure that this cable allows to be displayed in the sound in my work rig as well. It's my early Christmas present to myself. The gift that truly keeps giving all year round.


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## DeeJayBump

Heard back from Grover I can have my *UR6.* upgraded/exchanged for the new S. For those who've taken advantage of the upgrade with the new S cables, what was the turnaround? How long did it take to receive the new S after sending in your old cables? 

 Thanks.


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## sbulack

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DeeJayBump* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How long did it take to receive the new S after sending in your old cables? 
 Thanks._

 

In my case, Grover sent the new S cables in a few days, and the US Post Office took a week from their being shipped to get them to me (From West Coast to East Coast, USA). How long it would take Grover to send the new cables depends on his order queue, what he's got available, ..., so Your Mileage May Vary. I recently went from the UR6 to the S, and I can say that it's easily worth the wait.


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## DeeJayBump

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sbulack* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_In my case, Grover sent the new S cables in a few days...I recently went from the UR6 to the S, and I can say that it's easily worth the wait._

 

Cool. Thanks.

 I will have a new source in a few weeks (SACDmods 555ES) and I want to get the new S well broken in before it arrives. Then I can really compare how much of an upgrade the modded 555ES is over my stock 333ES. 

 Additionally, I will finally put together a two-channel speaker setup again right after the new year, so I will also get a chance to try Grovers speaker cables. I'm really looking forward to that. Now if we could get Grover to start making power cords, we could have an all-Grover-cabled setup.


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## jp11801

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nelamvr6* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You guys have fun, but I am more than satisfied with my UR-8's, I'm standing pat for the forseeable future, perhaps years._

 

I am going to hold out at least until he gets to the letter V seriessdo I shou;d be good untill easter


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## stressnot

I received Grover's new S cables about a week and a half ago, and have once again been amazed at the results. I had been using his UR7's, and was quite happy with the sound, but the S cables take things to a higher level. 

 The depth of detail is staggering, and at times the sounds are so real as to almost make me think there's a live concert in my room. The highs are sweet, the lows powerful, and the midrange gorgeous, with voices & strings that are to die for. . . Thank you, Grover. I thought you had already reached the ceiling as far as how good you could make my system sound, but with your S cables, you have burst right through it!


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