# Whats the deal with PCOCC?



## Elk

I was wondering what the deal was with PCOCC. Does it make better sounding cables? I'm mainly looking at interconnects and recabling headphones but any info would be helpful. I have found it in use in several companies cables for massive $$$ and on sale at other websites for 2 bucks a foot if you buy just the cable. Is this a poor mans silver?


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## bruceclay

Here is a nice little bit of info about your question.

furutech PCOCC process


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## meat01

If you are looking for silver cable at a reasonable cost, then Tweekgeek has some well built cables at a great price. If you wanted to know more about PCOCC, then Bruce gave you some information.

Pure silver audio video cables at TweekGeek.com


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## ixeo

PCOCC is only done on copper as far as i know. for the same gauge i can assure you silver would be the better conductor. for the same price though, the gauge of PCOCC would be way bigger than silver, and tramples the silver in conductivity.

 i use PCOCC RCA's in my car. 6.5ft each, 3 sets.. no noise or hiss, I am very happy with it. the equipment I use is regarded as fast and dynamic, and the PCOCC RCA in the signal chain surely didn't slow things down. if you can get it for 2 bucks a foot, I think its an OK price to pay. i guess its better than other copper in the same gauge, but noway in the league of silver (not considering the price that is).


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## meat01

Silver is ~7% more conductive than copper. Greater conductivity does not equal sound quality. With 6 foot runs, you could use 28 gauge and not hear a difference in sound quality.


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## ixeo

indeed, thus i never said anything about it sounding better (or worst for that matter) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 SQ is something we can't measure. 

 anyway, PCOCC, OFC or whatever copper it is, if you're buying RAW cables, try choosing tinned variants if possible, because copper do oxidize.


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## flipperds

I've recabled my SR225 with PCOCC. It took forever to break in but the wait was well worth it. I find PCOCC alot more neutral than silver.


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## vonedgar

There is not a comparation between copper and silver.
  Copper allow 86% light speed and silver  96%.
  But when we talk about SOUND, MUSIC, copper can give better sound than silver.
  The use of different % of metals can make the job of a "mechanical equalizer" to get the best sound someone like from the speakers.
   
  Copper allow better bass than silver, but silver flat too much bass.
  Silver "clean" some kind of distortion at the Mid range and upper Mid Range, copper do not.
  Changing the % of both metals, allow you to get almost the exact "timbre" you like.
  PCOCC is the more pure process to gets single crystal copper and make a huge difference in the sound or electrical transmition in a less expensive way tha silver
   
  Vondegar


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## vonedgar

*[size=medium][size=12pt]The Monocrystal™ Process:[/size][/size]*
  [size=medium][size=12pt]When copper slugs are forced through a small die hole to "draw" wire, known as copper extrusion, the copper undergoes a molecular change due to the stress and rapid cool down of the metal. Crystals are inadvertently formed in the copper, which act as an impediment to the natural flow of electrons in the wire. To counteract this obvious barrier to the delicate signal, Monocrystal™ Copper (and silver) is 'cast' as ONE unique crystal eliminating the crystal barriers. [/size][/size]
  [size=medium][size=12pt]At Ecosse we raised the bar when we introduced Monocrystal™ Silver as a primary conductor material. Silver speaker and interconnect cables are obviously much more expensive to manufacture than copper ones, but silver has some advantages. Although silver's conductivity is only slightly higher than that of copper, silver oxides are less of a problem for audio signals than are copper oxides. Silver conductors are made using the same drawing techniques used in making copper conductors and our Monocrystal™ Ag conductors exhibit the same superior sonic qualities over all-comers. [/size][/size]
  [size=medium][size=12pt]Since the stress of forcing the copper slug through the cold die creates the crystal barriers during the cool-down phase, the unique patented Monocrystal™ process involves slow casting the molten, purified copper through a special machine, which is preheated. The cool down of the single crystal filament is done in an environment of inert gas at a very slow rate, thus eliminating oxidization and the unwanted stress crystallization. [/size]This extrusion/annealing process produces 'Mono-crystal' wire. [/size]
  [size=medium]



[/size]
   
*[size=medium][size=12pt]SUPERMONOCRYSTAL™[/size][/size]*
  [size=medium][size=12pt]We began 2004 with the first real advance in copper wire casting and processing since the advent of single-crystal conductor material, two decades ago, and introduce the world's *ONLY Super-Monocrystal™ Cables*[/size] - you might say we have taken the single-crystal process to the Nth (sic) degree! [/size]
  [size=medium][size=12pt]Here, the multistrand cable on offer is SMS2.4-of rope-lay construction where each conductor has 2 bundles of differing cross-sectional area - to further improve linearity and phase coherence. The dielectric we use is high-grade polypropylene and the conductors are wound together in a precise helix.[/size][/size]
*[size=medium][size=12pt]The Super-Monocrystal™ Process (SMS):[/size][/size]*With continuous cast mono-crystal there are an absolute minimum of impurities in the grain boundary. Now, by heating and re-crystallising the metal, while absolutely maintaining its structure, and due to the physical stabilization of this ultra- pure material under stress-free conditions, we achieve an unsurpassed conductor of the delicate audio signal with quite exceptional linearity through the audio frequency band.
  [size=medium]N.B. Audiophiles please note that it is the purity of 'grain structure' (not to be confused with purity of copper or silver employed - often expressed as 99.99% or better - and merely signifying the purity of the copper ingot before smelting), which defines the major characteristics in the conductor's ability to transmit audiophile quality sound and video. For the record, Monocrystal™ is a minimum 5N's pure; SuperMonocrystal™ 7N! [/size]
  [size=medium]ESOTERIC is using 8N copper in the new PO1VU CD transport.[/size]


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## PSkeptic

How does one go about measuring the distortion induced by certain cables?  Every cable I've tried has looked the same on input as it did on output on my oscilloscope.


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## Steve Eddy

Quote: 





elk said:


> I was wondering what the deal was with PCOCC.


 

 One word: Marketing. Same as with OFC years earlier.
   
  se


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## PXSS

Sorry for reviving this thread months later but what would be the difference between PCOCC and UP-OCC wire?
  As far as I've been able to find out, they are the same but UP-OCC always costs twice/trice as much.
  Why is this?


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## scootermafia

PC-OCC is just Furutech's trade name for the Ohno continuous casting process.  They're one of the authorized manufacturers of this type of copper.  UP-OCC seems to be thrown around by everyone, it's the trade name that Neotech (another OCC manufacturer) uses.  It's the same thing - continuously cast copper or silver.  UP = ultra pure, PC = pure copper.  One shouldn't be more expensive than the other but Furutech stuff might be more expensive than Neotech or Oyaide or Acoustic Revive and vice versa, it depends on the cable in question, not whether it's UP or PC.  It isn't simply marketing, the copper is physically different and is made in a different way.  The metals purity depends on the manufacturer (as this relies on how good of a copper stock they bought prior to continuously casting it into wire) the heated casting process results in less crystals formed in the copper and fewer gas impurities.  What effect this has on audio is up to you, Head-fi.


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## PXSS

You pretty much answered all the questions I had related to the topic in one post! Kudos
  I understand now, thanks for clearing everything up, but just for the sake to be sure, it not only depends on the casting process but also on the purity of the metal before the process?
  That makes a lot more sense.
   
  Thanks for such a quick reply


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## scootermafia

Yep yep, the OCC part only covers the casting of the metal from bar stock into the wire, if the bar stock has, for example, high amounts of contamination and has 5% lead or something in it, that's going to carry through.  So usually places like Furutech or Acrolink will buy a high purity stock (in terms of not having metals impurities) from a place like Nikko or Mitsubishi, so they have a good starting point.  The OCC process does force out a lot of the oxygen because when you heat anything (like water, when heated, starts to deplete in oxygen - this is part of the way that we degas solutions and make them anaerobic in the lab I work in) oxygen is going to leave - and then if you do it in a nitrogen environment as is typical when working with metals that easily oxidize like copper - then you end up with a metal that has very little oxygen in it.  However, you of course could make an OCC copper that is not ultra pure, if you wanted to. Then, OCC also makes it so that the molten copper or silver crystallizes into 100m long crystals because that is how long these massive molds are, vs cold extrusion of the wire where the crystals are going to be there.  It does make the metal physically a bit stronger, this may be why there are industrial applications for OCC outside of audio, not an expert on that sort of thing though.  
   
  http://www.amazon.com/Solidification-Separation-Theory-Practical-Applications/dp/3540182330/ref=tmm_pap_title_0?ie=UTF8&qid=1311787626&sr=8-1
   
  I really need to read this book, although I'm not a materials engineer by any means.


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## IPodPJ

Quote: 





meat01 said:


> Silver is ~7% more conductive than copper.


 
   
  Not quite.  More like 4.8%.  Regular annealed copper is 100% of the IACS, and silver is at 105%.
  Silver is definitely the best conductor though, which is why people like using solid silver or silver plated copper conductors for audio.
   
  OCC copper can run between 100.6% and 101.2% of the IACS (if I remember correctly).  Not a very significant difference.
  If you're looking at it from a standpoint of conductivity, you can just use a slightly larger gauge wire to achieve the same effect.
 Proponents of OCC say it has other benefits, which I won't comment on one way or the other.


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## Steve Eddy

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> OCC copper can run between 100.6% and 101.2% (if I remember correctly).  Not a very significant difference.


 

 FYI, even plain Jane ETP copper made today is typically 101% IACS.
   
  Materials processing has come a way since the IACS standard was established 98 years ago. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  se


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## IPodPJ

Quote: 





steve eddy said:


> FYI, even plain Jane ETP copper made today is typically 101% IACS.
> 
> Materials processing has come a way since the IACS standard was established 98 years ago.
> 
> ...


 

 I know.  I was going to mention that but I didn't want to cause a stir.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  And OFC has approximately the same conductivity as OCC.


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## Steve Eddy

Quote: 





ipodpj said:


> I know.  I was going to mention that but I didn't want to cause a stir.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  OFC's also around 101% IACS.
   
  When processing ETP copper, very small, very precisely controlled amounts of oxygen are used to scavenge impurities, taking them out of solution and increasing conductivity. But because OFC can't contain any appreciable amount of copper, it has to be of a higher intrinsic purity in order to achieve the same conductivity as oxygenated ETP copper.
   
  se


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## scootermafia

Sweet, the circulation desk at my university's library got me in a copy of Dr. Ohno's book, I'll pick it up in a few days.  Wonder if it's comprehensible.  If anyone is curious about the process, I can get some technical information.


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## Steve Eddy

Quote: 





scootermafia said:


> Sweet, the circulation desk at my university's library got me in a copy of Dr. Ohno's book, I'll pick it up in a few days.  Wonder if it's comprehensible.  If anyone is curious about the process, I can get some technical information.


 

 Cool. Would be interesting to see what it has to say in the book as he makes no mention whatsoever in any of his patents regarding OCC's electrical properties.
   
  se


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## scootermafia

Yeah, when this process was being developed Mr. Ohno was probably not at all interested in building a neato stereo system.  After this wedding of mine this weekend I will get the info, very curious.  More than likely he was just advancing the field of metallurgy and any audio uses of OCC were spur of the moment.


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## PXSS

Awesome!
  Thanks for the info, was a very interesting read there and I did look up the book at my university's library but they didn't find it in the system.
  It'd be great to learn more about the process, it's a very interesting process.


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## Steve Eddy

Quote:  





> It'd be great to learn more about the process, it's a very interesting process.


 
   
  It's basically just continuous casting using a heated mold. Read the patents.
   
  Personally, with respect to regular wire, I'm still at a complete loss as to what advantages it offers over conventional continuous cast rod (which is then subsequently drawn into wire).
   
  se


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## PXSS

Quote: 





steve eddy said:


> It's basically just continuous casting using a heated mold. Read the patents.
> 
> Personally, with respect to regular wire, I'm still at a complete loss as to what advantages it offers over conventional continuous cast rod (which is then subsequently drawn into wire).
> 
> se


 


  This is not my field and I'm kind of new to the audiophile scene as a whole so what may seem as something conventional and old to you may be interesting and new to others.
  I'm an enthusiast DIYer so knowing more about this kind of things will help decide when choosing materials for mods and other projects.


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