# Apogee Groove Dac / Headphone Amp



## bugstone

http://www.apogeedigital.com/products/groove
  
 Bugstone


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## Mojo777

Looks promising. I am a huge fan of Apogee's Duet 2 
  

 
 
 
 



 
 
 



 
 
 
 Portable USB DAC and headphone amp for Mac and PC 
 The most trusted digital audio technology for music recording is now available for consumer hi-fi listening 
 
 
 
  
 
 
 
_Anaheim, California, January 22, 2015_ - Apogee Electronics, industry leader in digital audio recording technology since 1985, is pleased to introduce Apogee Groove™ – a new portable USB DAC and headphone amp for listening to music on your Mac or PC. Built upon Apogee’s 30-year history of award-winning digital audio technology for music creation, Groove unlocks the highest possible quality of any headphones or powered speakers you have, allowing you to listen to the music you love with incredible lifelike clarity. 

 Apogee’s digital audio technology has been trusted by professional recording artists, producers and engineers from around the world to create countless GRAMMY® and OSCAR® winning recordings since 1985. For the first time, Groove puts this same technology into a compact, durable, easy to use interface for consumers, providing a music listening experience of unparalleled quality, as it was originally captured in the recording studio.  

*Groove’s Unique Circuit Design*
*Constant Current Drive™*
 Groove’s Constant Current Drive output stage is a truly revolutionary approach to dealing with the wide impedance variations of headphones available on the market today. With Constant Current Drive topology, Groove’s output stage’s voltage is dynamically “molded” to the impedance variations of the connected headphones, thereby smoothing out frequency response non-linearity that occurs with traditional headphone outputs. 

*Quad Sum DAC™*
 Groove also features a Quad Sum DAC design which employs four digital-to-analog converters per channel to achieve the highest  dynamic range and lowest distortion (THD+N) of any device in its class.

*Limited edition Groove for Apogee’s 30-year Anniversary*




 To commemorate Apogee’s 30 years of digital audio excellence, a limited edition anniversary model of Groove will also be available. The Groove 30th Anniversary Edition will feature a custom machined aluminum body, performance enhancements and will be available in silver and gold.

 Apogee Groove and Groove 30th Anniversary Edition will be available Spring 2015. Visit apogeedigital.com for more info and sign up for product updates.  
   *Apogee Groove Highlights*


USB 2.0 connection to Mac and PC
Up to 24 bit / 192kHz audio
ESS Sabre DAC
Constant Current Drive™, Ultra-smooth frequency response for any headphone
Quad Sum DAC™, 4 DACs per channel for highest dynamic range and lowest distortion
Asynchronous clocking
Max output level: 225mW into 30 Ohm
Multi-color LEDs for status and level indication
Powered by USB
Top panel buttons for adjusting output level and muting
Compact and portable (95mm H x 30mm W x 16mm T)
Premium aluminum build quality
Built in the USA
 *Price*: TBA
*Availability*: Spring 2015


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## Ivabign

I signed up - saber DAC and adjusting output based on the impedance variations of the headphones that are plugged in? Since I have a number of multi-BA headphones - this could be something VERY interesting


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## laanis

Im getting bored waiting for this to surface...now im eye'ing up the Meridian Explorer 2, do you think the Apogee Groove is worth waiting for or will i be happy with the Explorer 2?
  
  
 TIA


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## jayban

Subbed. Seems like a good product as long as price won't be ridiculous!


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## gr8soundz

The 4 DACs per channel got my attention.


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## tumburu

It seems it will be released this month.


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## USHI

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1132315-REG
 300$. hope it's good and can run on android.


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## tumburu

AFAIK it won't run on mobile devices, only on computers. I'm very curious about the 'special/limited edition' version.


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## maikuirock

This is now out as of today http://www.apogeedigital.com/products/groove. I did audition it for a bit on HD800 at CanJam, and was very impressed as they seem to drive them fairly easy. I would've bought one there but, they weren't selling it yet. I have since purchased and am waiting on my CEntrance DACPort 1ohm. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Sorry Apogee...late to the game. unless you're up for a discount


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## Jeangenie

anyone know how this compares to a duet 2?


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## Tjinnitus

maikuirock said:


> This is now out as of today http://www.apogeedigital.com/products/groove. I did audition it for a bit on HD800 at CanJam, and was very impressed as they seem to drive them fairly easy. I would've bought one there but, they weren't selling it yet. I have since purchased and am waiting on my CEntrance DACPort 1ohm.  Sorry Apogee...late to the game. unless you're up for a discount



The special editions are not in the webbshop


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## Tjinnitus

How does it sound?
Digital?
Forward?
Distant?
Silent?


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## Tjinnitus

The S/N ratio should be the highest on the market!


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## hoshiyomi

Constant current output means VERY HIGH output impedance, unless there is some load sensing voodoo going on at the output stage, this is the last thing you would want connected to a multi-transducer iem.


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## Tjinnitus

hoshiyomi said:


> Constant current output means VERY HIGH output impedance, unless there is some load sensing voodoo going on at the output stage, this is the last thing you would want connected to a multi-transducer iem.



Can't see how constant current can be wrong, it's done within reasonable limits.


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## hifuguy

Greetings... As an electrical engineer (you can take it for what whatever you think that's worth), constant current drive in the context of a headphone amplifier can indeed be a very good thing. It is technically more challenging to implement than a conventional voltage drive. The basic idea of constant current drive, is to get the current (waveform) that is being driven into the transducer (headphone or IEM) to exactly match the voltage (waveform) from the driving source. A transducer (magnetism) works because of current flow! Voltage across the resistance of the transducer causes the current flow that makes the sound. If a transducer were to be purely resistive, there would be no difference between voltage drive and current drive! But in the real world, we have inductance and capacitance. In the case of a transducer, mainly inductance. Inductance is an electrical term that means the device tries to fight-back against changes in current. An audio waveform is always changing. This is why, in the case of a conventional voltage driven amplifier, you do want low output impedance, because it can fight though the inductance and overpower it quickly. In the case of a constant current amplifier, the output voltage will do anything to it's output voltage, up to the capability of the power supply and driver, to force the current in the transducer to equal the input drive. So from this introduction, I hope you can see that a correctly implemented constant current drive, can indeed be a very good thing, leaving behind the basic discussion of output impedance for an approach that is far more interesting. Reports of how it sounds with widely ranging headphones and IEMs will indeed be very interesting to watch. I just wish it worked with the iphone. I don't believe that it will due to over-limit current draw from the iPhone. I'm hoping and praying for a battery-powered version of the Goove. Apogee is a pro-audio company, that is beginning to break into our audiophile marketplace. They have a ton of engineering talent and very good ears. So please Apogee... how about a battery powered, iPhone compatible (via Camera Connection kit or Made-For-iPhone) Groove!!!


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## RedJohn456

How does the groove compare to the apogee one or duet? Is it just the dac/amp in a separate product? A lot of people bought the one or duet for its dac functionality alone, so I am wondering how the groove compares, performance wise.


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## tumburu

Groove has 4 converters (2 per channel), as well as the completely redesigned amp and it's compatible with PC, a first in Apogee products.
  
 In theory it should perform better then the Duet...


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## RedJohn456

tumburu said:


> Groove has 4 converters (2 per channel), as well as the completely redesigned amp and it's compatible with PC, a first in Apogee products.
> 
> In theory it should perform better then the Duet...


 

 Thanks bud   Thats good to know. I have been looking all over for decent reviews or comparisons but haven't found much as of yet. How come no buzz around this? Seems like a cool little combo for not too bad a price all things considering


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## tumburu

Sorry, it's 4 converters per channel, not 2. If the drivers are stable I'm sure it will be quite a successful product.


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## laanis

Noone tested or reviewed yet nothing on google im surprised?!!!?


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## Tjinnitus

3 happy owners on Amazon.com, so far.


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## maikuirock

According to the review on Engadget (i wouldn't take too seriously), it sounds like the Constant Current tech they use almost auto EQs to make up for headphones FR imbalances. Curious to hear the HD800s again http://www.engadget.com/2015/06/09/apogee-groove-irl/


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## maikuirock

i guess that's what their site says as well...
  
Constant Current Drive™ Make any Headphones Sound their Best Groove’s Constant Current Drive output stage dynamically compensates for the nonlinearities – acoustic, mechanical or electrical – of any connected headphones, resulting in lower distortion and a more linear frequency response. Whether listening through earbuds or “hi-fi” headphones, you’ll discover a new level of fidelity, clarity and detail.


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## Tjinnitus

maikuirock said:


> i guess that's what their site says as well...
> 
> Constant Current Drive™
> 
> ...



Could this DAC be connected to domestic amp instead, with favourable outcome?


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## macshooter

Listening to this now, just got it today.  Using M50x and ALAC files.  It is clearly (literally) on a different level than the FiiO E10K + E12a combo I have been using.  It also seems better than the converters in my Focusrite 18i20.  It's really damn good.  Can't wait to try my Shure SRH1540's and K702s.   It's a magnifying glass for critical listening, I just wish Apogee made USB audio interfaces.  But you can dial in your mix then render it and listen to it in itunes through this thing as a cross reference.   
  
  It integrates with the windows volume slider and fine adjustments are easier to make using the buttons on the DAC than using a mouse (or trackball) to move the slider, though I worry that doing that all the time will wear the symbols off the buttons. I'm used to listening at about 75db. With the M50x, a volume level of 06 or 07 (out of 100) on the windows mixer/volume slider seems to be about at 75db to my ear.  That means 6-7% of the available volume is my max safe listening level with the M50x.  This leads me to believe this thing will have no trouble driving much higher impedance cans with authority.  It's warm to the touch when in use.  
  
 The lights blink along with the volume and beat, which is pretty cool, and change colors when you adjust the volume.
  
 I don't see why you would ever want some big DAC/amp on your desk when something like this is available.
  
 -edit-
  
 As much volume as I get with the slider at next to nothing, I hesitate to plug my JH16s into this thing.  I think I might like to have the E12a in between my eardrums and this thing just as a safety precaution.  If you were to accidentally raise the volume to say 50%, I think you will damage your hearing very fast...
  
 Another thing you will notice is that it is absolutely DEAD QUIET.


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## Tjinnitus

Shoot out: Hugo DAC vs. Apogee Groove, is the outcome clear?


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## macshooter

With the SRH1540's I am hearing new things again in Amnesiac and Kid A.  I didn't think that was possible, but every time it happens I love it.  This is the clearest window on sound I have ever heard.  The most remarkable thing about this DAC is the sense that there is absolutely nothing but signal presented to it, is as clear and perfect detail as a your headphones are capable of producing.  The dead silence after a fade out is almost jarring.  You really get the impression you are hearing exactly what is there and absolutely nothing else.   This will be my go to device to check every mixdown I do from now on. 
  
 Not the slightest bit "clinical" "sterile" or harsh.  It's superbly musical to my ears.
  
 I find the volume set to 05 (Windows 7) with the SRH1540s to be about right. The buttons on the DAC adjust the vol at half increments of what the windows slider does.  I'll be using those.  I'm pretty much floored by this thing.  It's pricey.  But if you asked me if it's worth $300 I would have to say it definitely is.


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## macshooter

hifuguy said:


> Greetings... As an electrical engineer (you can take it for what whatever you think that's worth), constant current drive in the context of a headphone amplifier can indeed be a very good thing. It is technically more challenging to implement than a conventional voltage drive. The basic idea of constant current drive, is to get the current (waveform) that is being driven into the transducer (headphone or IEM) to exactly match the voltage (waveform) from the driving source. A transducer (magnetism) works because of current flow! Voltage across the resistance of the transducer causes the current flow that makes the sound. If a transducer were to be purely resistive, there would be no difference between voltage drive and current drive! But in the real world, we have inductance and capacitance. In the case of a transducer, mainly inductance. Inductance is an electrical term that means the device tries to fight-back against changes in current. An audio waveform is always changing. This is why, in the case of a conventional voltage driven amplifier, you do want low output impedance, because it can fight though the inductance and overpower it quickly. In the case of a constant current amplifier, the output voltage will do anything to it's output voltage, up to the capability of the power supply and driver, to force the current in the transducer to equal the input drive. So from this introduction, I hope you can see that a correctly implemented constant current drive, can indeed be a very good thing, leaving behind the basic discussion of output impedance for an approach that is far more interesting. Reports of how it sounds with widely ranging headphones and IEMs will indeed be very interesting to watch.* I just wish it worked with the iphone. I don't believe that it will due to over-limit current draw from the iPhone. I'm hoping and praying for a battery-powered version of the Goove. Apogee is a pro-audio company, that is beginning to break into our audiophile marketplace. They have a ton of engineering talent and very good ears. So please Apogee... how about a battery powered, iPhone compatible (via Camera Connection kit or Made-For-iPhone) Groove!!!*


 
 I too would VERY much like to see and Iphone version. That would be heaven when out and about.  I think the idea was for this to work with 600ohm cans, so maybe if they dialed the power back or cut it in half.   I can tell you that this thing produces a lot of heat.  It runs much warmer than my Iphone has ever been.  Not uncomfortable heat, to where it's hot, but warm enough for you to go, "wow" when you pick it up.  I don't think an iphone battery would produce this much heat for very long.


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## maikuirock

How is it with IEMs?


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## zenpunk

I should get mine tomorrow. I will try it with AKG 812 and my custom iem and will pitch it against my Pulse SFi....


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## jerryzm

macshooter said:


> I too would VERY much like to see and Iphone version. That would be heaven when out and about.  I think the idea was for this to work with 600ohm cans, so maybe if they dialed the power back or cut it in half.   I can tell you that this thing produces a lot of heat.  It runs much warmer than my Iphone has ever been.  Not uncomfortable heat, to where it's hot, but warm enough for you to go, "wow" when you pick it up.  I don't think an iphone battery would produce this much heat for very long.


 
  
 hifiguy528 actually made a video using the groove on an iphone 6 with a neat hack. It consists of an iphone 6, lightning to usb camera dongle, external battery, and a dual usb cable. Not sure if I would walk around with that though.


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## zenpunk

Only listened to the device briefly with few of my head gear and I am very impressed so far by this tiny device. Enjoying it right now through my AKG812.
 I tried my CIEM and earbuds and it seems to be extremely quiet. I couldn't detect any hiss or hum, even when pushing the volume to max.
 The volume control seem to be very well designed with fine and precise adjustments possible with all the iem/headphone I tried so far.
 Crappy pic...:


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## RedJohn456

Was talking to customer service on the apogee site and they are in the process of sending out review units to the likes of Jude and other well known reviewers on head fi. can't wait to see how it fares against established players in the arena


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## pearljam50000

Can u elaborate some more about the SQ?
Thanks.

Does anyone know what chip is inside?
It only says "ESS Sabre DAC"

Does anyone know how much this impacts sound? "Quad Sum DAC™, 4 DACs per channel"

And does anyone know if its possible to get a perfect line out?

Sorry for the many questions!
Thank you.


zenpunk said:


> Only listened to the device briefly with few of my head gear and I am very impressed so far by this tiny device. Enjoying it right now through my AKG812.
> I tried my CIEM and earbuds and it seems to be extremely quiet. I couldn't detect any hiss or hum, even when pushing the volume to max.
> The volume control seem to be very well designed with fine and precise adjustments possible with all the iem/headphone I tried so far.
> Crappy pic...:


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## zenpunk

To my surprise the Groove also work perfectly with Android Lollipop on my old and very basic Motorola Moto t1030 phone...


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## USHI

zenpunk said:


> To my surprise the Groove also work perfectly with Android Lollipop on my old and very basic Motorola Moto t1030 phone


 
 With or without external battery hack? And if without it, how is the battery life of your phone playing the groove?


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## zenpunk

Without battery pack, but yes, the battery appear to be going down rather quickly. Only tried  out of curiosity...


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## pearljam50000

Can you compare to other DAC's you have?
You seem to be the only one on head fi that has one lol.
Thanks.


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## macadmv

zenpunk said:


> Only listened to the device briefly with few of my head gear and I am very impressed so far by this tiny device. Enjoying it right now through my AKG812.
> I tried my CIEM and earbuds and it seems to be extremely quiet. I couldn't detect any hiss or hum, even when pushing the volume to max.
> The volume control seem to be very well designed with fine and precise adjustments possible with all the iem/headphone I tried so far.
> Crappy pic...:


 
 zenpunk...can you make a comparison with the Apogee Groove, Roland Mobile UA, and JDS Labs C5D?


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## Mike_TNT

macshooter said:


> I don't see why you would ever want some big DAC/amp on your desk when something like this is available.


 
 That's what I've been asking myself looking at my NAD d1050. I have been using the groove with my beoplay h6 and its pure sex. Have also tried it briefly with hd650, nad viso, grado sr325i, beats solo 2 and q701 and they all sounded great. Sorry I'm not going into details but i'm very sleep deprived thanks to the groove. lol


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## macshooter

maikuirock said:


> How is it with IEMs?


 

 I'm using JH16pros right now.  I find that the volume at 03 is about right (that's -47db in the Groove Control Panel)  You'll have no trouble with adjusting the volume using the buttons on the Groove, I would stay the hell away from the volume slider in windows with CIEMs. 
  
 On a side note, as much as I hate to say this, really, the SRH1540's kill the JH16s.   The JH16's have their place, like anytime you don't want some big goofy headphones on your head.  But damn, the SRH1540's are a real eye opener. Especially with this thing.
  
 -edit-
 I think to be fair I must say I have long ear canals.  I think this has an effect on the overall sound of the JH16s. So for me it may not the same as for someone else, like everyone is going to have a different experience with the exact same model/drivers, because our anatomies are all different.  I really don't like to talk bad of the JH16's they are spectacular for isolation and low profile mobile use.  But for critical listening like mixing and mastering, gotta go with some bigger high end cans.
  
 K702's sound smooth and lush


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## Tjinnitus

Hugo DAC vs Groove, anyone?


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## pearljam50000

Anyone tried the HD800 with the Groove?


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## hifuguy

Hi Guys,
  
 Just thinking out loud here and following in the trail-blazing path of the hifiguy528 video. I wonder if this cable would work for making the Groove work on an iPhone, along with a run-of-the-mill USB Battery pack and an Apple Camera Connection Kit?
  
 http://www.startech.com/Cables/USB-2.0/Micro/1foot-USB-Y-Cable-for-External-Hard-Drive-Dual-USB-A-to-Micro-B~USB2HAUBY1
  
 Best Regards!


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## gr8soundz

I was hoping for a balanced TRRS output (switchable to TRS like Hifiman) but see no mention of it.
  
 Can anyone confirm for certain that the Groove is TRS only?


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## derGabe

I am not sold on this thing. If you are an iPhone / iPod User, i would recommend the Oppo-HA2 since this one is working straight out of the box with iDevices and you don't need this clusterf*** of CCK and USB-Hubs and USB-Battery Packs and whatnot. And the soundquality is top notch.


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## Tjinnitus

8 reviews now on Amazon.com, no pro reviewer yet, neither in the States or in the UK, what is taking them so long?


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## pearljam50000

Anyone tried it with the HD800 as DAC\amp?


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## obsidyen

...


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## pearljam50000

Bump 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 I really don't understand why this thing is not a hit on head-fi.


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## Tjinnitus

pearljam50000 said:


> Bump
> I really don't understand why this thing is not a hit on head-fi.



Seems to matter more than one think that Apogee is a studio brand and not a HiFi brand.


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## TimSchirmer

tjinnitus said:


> Seems to matter more than one think that Apogee is a studio brand and not a HiFi brand.


 

 That fact alone makes me trust them more.


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## pearljam50000

Pro studio gear is much better than any Hi-Fi...


tjinnitus said:


> Seems to matter more than one think that Apogee is a studio brand and not a HiFi brand.


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## Monokrom

Hello beautiful people of Head Fi. I've been dealing with digital music technologies for the last 5 years or so; I'm still a newbie. One of the reasons I got myself a Sennheiser HD 700 when I'm a techno enthusiast. I've yet never had the chance of trying my new headphones with any audio interface or amp. I've asked the HD 700 discussion regarding possible amps that might give me what HD 700 has to offer and maybe a bit bass. Techno is a bass heavy genre and I need to hear my subs clearly and there has been complaints about HD 700's trebs piercing. It's hard for me to change headphones now. Tone for friendly user recommended me Digizoid amps and told me I could also EQ my headphones without distorting my sound; but I couldn't be sure if that'd give me the studio sound I wish to hear, clear and objective, or trick me into believing the naturality of the increased bass. So I'm asking anyone with amp and HD 700 experience if this would be a better choice for mixing down techno tracks. I don't want to hear an altered sound that's no longer mix friendly, nor do I want to lack any bass so that I'll boost my bass freqs up and it'll mud everything out when played at a club or so. Can anyone get me out of this dilemma?

On the side note: I have a Scarlett 2i4 I mainly purchased for DJing with my APC 40 since it allowed me to cue tracks. When I go back home, should I continue my mixdowns with the Groove or the 2i4? 

Thanks a lot!


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## HiFiGuy528

hifuguy said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> Just thinking out loud here and following in the trail-blazing path of the hifiguy528 video. I wonder if this cable would work for making the Groove work on an iPhone, along with a run-of-the-mill USB Battery pack and an Apple Camera Connection Kit?
> 
> ...


 
  
 You would need the Cube USB hub (white little box) to bypass Apple's Lightening restrictions.   Otherwise, iOS will pop up "device not supported".
  
 I'm enjoying Groove with Sennheiser IE-800 right now.  Great combo!


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## pearljam50000

hifiguy528 said:


> You would need the Cube USB hub (white little box) to bypass Apple's Lightening restrictions.   Otherwise, iOS will pop up "device not supported".
> 
> I'm enjoying Groove with Sennheiser IE-800 right now.  Great combo!


 

@HiFiGuy528
 Could you please try the Groove with the HD800 and tell me if it's a  any good?Of course i would like to know about the DAC, buy  i am mainly worried if the amp is powerful enough.
 Thanks!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 

 By the way i LOVE your videos! i watch each one of them.


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## sheldaze

Is there any other well-known or popular constant current output AMP? The sound from this is very interesting. I always like to find something to compare against for something that is new-to-me, so I can "bookmark" it in my mind and say - so that's what constant current output sounds like.


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## Mike_TNT

sheldaze said:


> Is there any other well-known or popular constant current output AMP? The sound from this is very interesting. I always like to find something to compare against for something that is new-to-me, so I can "bookmark" it in my mind and say - so that's what constant current output sounds like.


 

 I believe the Nuforce Ha-200 is one.


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## sheldaze

mike_tnt said:


> I believe the Nuforce Ha-200 is one.


 
 Thanks!
 I'll have to look that one up.


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## sheldaze

Is there a more detailed manual?
  
 I must say that it irks me a little that there are two ways to control volume - is it OCD of me to refuse to touch the physical volume buttons until I read in a manual exactly what effect they have? However I have also seen the top LED blink red. I have submitted a help ticket (because I did not find a manual) to try to understand the cause. Of course I know it means something was clipping:
  

Did it mean that my USB power source could not provide enough power, thus the AMP clipped?
Did it mean that the audio track being played had clipped data, a sign that someone was too aggressive during the audio mastering?
  
 My vote is for the second. But I could use some help from anyone here who knows, or can point me in the right direction.


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## sheldaze

My guess was correct. Tech response was that red LED was indicative of the audio. It may not specifically indicate clipping, but simply maximum volume in the playback for a continuous period of time.


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## tumburu

Take into account that if you're listening to mp3 files, those can have overs because of the encoding, it's a common thing. Nothing to be worried about though, if the original tracks don't distort.


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## sheldaze

tumburu said:


> Take into account that if you're listening to mp3 files, those can have overs because of the encoding, it's a common thing. Nothing to be worried about though, if the original tracks don't distort.


 
 Thanks!
  
 I'm only listening to RedBook (i.e. Tidal if I am streaming) or higher quality at the moment. I think it is just an unfortunate studio error to boost the sound relative to all the other popular music. I have had my suspicions for a while about the particular song, and this just confirms. I link to the song below:
  
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Like_a_Star
  
 The higher up the fidelity chain I move, the less I like this song - once one of my favorites


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## macshooter

So I upgraded the computer to a MacBook Pro.  This thing knocks me out.


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## drbluenewmexico

hifuguy said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> Just thinking out loud here and following in the trail-blazing path of the hifiguy528 video. I wonder if this cable would work for making the Groove work on an iPhone, along with a run-of-the-mill USB Battery pack and an Apple Camera Connection Kit?
> 
> ...


 

 I haven't found anyway to get the GROOVE to work out of my iPad.  i tried the GENESIS powered Y cable (a very expensive Y cable set up with AC filtered power to the
 power needs of the dac, and a non ac big battery charger pac, but no matter what i do the iPad gives me a  GROOVE REQUIRES TOO MUCH POWER error message,
 strange it recognizes its a GROOVEA  but won't play through it even though the groove is glowing with a blue power dot and getting its power from an external source.
 any other workarounds???


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## HiFiGuy528

drbluenewmexico said:


> I haven't found anyway to get the GROOVE to work out of my iPad.  i tried the GENESIS powered Y cable (a very expensive Y cable set up with AC filtered power to the
> power needs of the dac, and a non ac big battery charger pac, but no matter what i do the iPad gives me a  GROOVE REQUIRES TOO MUCH POWER error message,
> strange it recognizes its a GROOVEA  but won't play through it even though the groove is glowing with a blue power dot and getting its power from an external source.
> any other workarounds???


 
  
 You need this to bypass Apple's restrictions.  Note: Apogee Groove does not officially support iOS devices.  This is a hack.
  
 http://www.amazon.com/Cute-USB-2-Port-Splitter-White/dp/B00A81ISJ6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1437502859&sr=8-1&keywords=cute+usb+hub


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## tumburu

It was never advertised as an iOS device. A representative wrote on a forum that it requires too much power for that.


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## zenpunk

it works with my cheap and old Motorola Moto so power isn't an issue.


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## pearljam50000

Can it drive the HD800?


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## tumburu

zenpunk said:


> it works with my cheap and old Motorola Moto so power isn't an issue.


 
  
 I hope I remember correctly, but then, I have no idea what other reason they could have not to make it compatible with the phone/pad. Even their (portable) audio interfaces are.


----------



## gr8soundz

Trying the Apogee Groove now. Surprisingly, it actually drives the HD650 very well and sounds very good. Gets pretty hot but the full metal design seems to be working.
  
 Initial impression is it sounds smoother and has more low end compared to the iDSD Micro. The Micro clearly has a sharper roll-off and a bit more detail. Still doing A/B comparisons.
  
 Caution: wouldn't recommend the Groove if you only have Windows. It doesn't auto install to 96Khz like some other DACs and you MUST register to get the driver. Wouldn't be a giant issue if Apogee's site was secure but it's not ( I said screw that; register at your own risk). I'm driverless for the moment and using an old Hackintosh. The Groove may go back just for Apogee being jerks with their software.


----------



## kawaivpc1

Does this work with Samsung Note 4 and OTG cable?
Can anyone try this with Android??
I think it might work with HibyMusic App or UAPP.


----------



## kawaivpc1

zenpunk said:


> To my surprise the Groove also work perfectly with Android Lollipop on my old and very basic Motorola Moto t1030 phone...




Did you use UAPP?
I'm going to try this with my Samsung Note 4!!
What kind of OTG cable did you use? 
Can I use any Micro USB to Micro USB cable?


----------



## gr8soundz

kawaivpc1 said:


> Did you use UAPP?
> I'm going to try this with my Samsung Note 4!!
> What kind of OTG cable did you use?
> Can I use any Micro USB to Micro USB cable?


 

 I can try it with my Note 3 and UAPP later tonight.


----------



## kawaivpc1

gr8soundz said:


> I can try it with my Note 3 and UAPP later tonight.




Let me know how it goes. Please list name of your OTG cable. 
I will buy that setup. 
Groove DAC will be fantastic if it works with UAPP and Samsung Note 4.


----------



## zenpunk

I finally managed to get my Xperia Z3 repaired, and surprise!, the Groove doesn't work with it - I get a flashing blue light. 
 My two year old Moto G has no issues, with and without UAPP....
 But again the Groove was never designed to be compatible with Android, or to be used with smartphones.


----------



## kawaivpc1

zenpunk said:


> I finally managed to get my Xperia Z3 repaired, and surprise!, the Groove doesn't work with it - I get a flashing blue light.
> My two year old Moto G has no issues, with and without UAPP....
> But again the Groove was never designed to be compatible with Android, or to be used with smartphones.




If it works with moto lollipop, we have hopes for Note series....
What kind of OTG cable did you use?
This groove DAC will be an amazing addon to my Note 4 with 10,000mAh battery case.


----------



## gr8soundz

Tried the Groove with my Note 3 and......IT WORKED!
  
 Running Note 3 upgraded to stock 5.0 with UAPP (set to USB Tweak 2). Didn't run it for too long after battery dropped 2% after only a few minutes. 
  
 Used a 6in standard micro usb to usb A cable on the Groove's end and a micro usb otg adapter on the Note 3. It's the adapter from this kit (you can see the small otg piece in pics 5 and 6 from the top):
  
 http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00GQPVVV0?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_search_detailpage


----------



## kawaivpc1

gr8soundz said:


> Tried the Groove with my Note 3 and......IT WORKED!
> 
> Running Note 3 upgraded to stock 5.0 with UAPP (set to USB Tweak 2). Didn't run it for too long after battery dropped 2% after only a few minutes.
> 
> ...




Amazing...thanks for this info. 
I'm thinking about using micro USB to micro USB cable. 
Do you have anything like this?
This can be truly a one cable solution. 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00TQOEST0/ref=mp_s_a_1_2?qid=1437806813&sr=8-2&pi=AC_SX200_QL40&keywords=micro+usb+to+micro+usb&dpPl=1&dpID=31dr--9ePLL&ref=plSrch

It's an OTG cable and will fit both Note 4 and Groove... 
My Note 4 has 10,000mAh battery case so I don't worry about battery too much.

And how did the groove and note combo sound?
Is Groove DAC better than Geek Out, iBasso, Dragonfly, HA-02?


----------



## zenpunk

kawaivpc1 said:


> If it works with moto lollipop, we have hopes for Note series....
> What kind of OTG cable did you use?
> This groove DAC will be an amazing addon to my Note 4 with 10,000mAh battery case.


 

 I used a cheap OTG cable off eBay.
 Looking in to it I found out Sony removed their own USB audio DAC implementation, found in KitKat, and broke Lollipop function in their firmware.
 That 'squite sad as Sony had the best compatibility with USB DAC until the Lollipop upgrade.


----------



## gr8soundz

That cable should work since its otg and I imagine a big battery can only help.
  
 Groove and Note 3 sound good but not quite as good as my iBasso DX100. Haven't tried the Dragonfly and other you mentioned.


----------



## kawaivpc1

gr8soundz said:


> That cable should work since its otg and I imagine a big battery can only help.
> 
> Groove and Note 3 sound good but not quite as good as my iBasso DX100. Haven't tried the Dragonfly and other you mentioned.




I had DX100... Is it not better?
I sold mine because of DX100's short battery life and terrible firmware. 
How much is Groove DAC behind DX100?
DX100 sounds incredible. I agree.


----------



## gr8soundz

kawaivpc1 said:


> I had DX100... Is it not better?
> I sold mine because of DX100's short battery life and terrible firmware.
> How much is Groove DAC behind DX100?
> DX100 sounds incredible. I agree.


 
  
 Mine is the Japanese version called the R10. It has better firmware and longer battery life (still short compared to some players but worth it for the sound). The R10 also has a bit less power than the DX100 but still enough to drive power hungry headphones.
  
 http://www.hibino-intersound.co.jp/ibasso_audio/3289.html
  
 It's not a huge difference between the two. Soundstage is very similar but I think the R10 has a bit more detail.
  
 The Groove gets fairly hot though after minutes of playing while the R10 is only warm after about 45min. Of course the Groove is much, much smaller.


----------



## kawaivpc1

Mine was R10 too. Its firmware still sucks. Battery life is worse than that of Note 3, 4. Its touchscreen is bad too. 
But it sounded better than anything else I've heard. 
Is R10 better in nearly all songs?
I loved R10's sound stage. It's one of the widest I've heard. 
It's great that Groove DAC can match that.

Is Groove DAC good enough for professional usage such as mixing and mastering? Is it detailed enough?


----------



## gr8soundz

kawaivpc1 said:


> Mine was R10 too. Its firmware still sucks. Battery life isnworse than that of Note 3, 4. Its touchscreen is bad too.
> But it sounded better than anything else I've heard.
> Is R10 better in nearly all songs?
> I loved R10's sound stage. It's obe of the widest I've heard.
> ...


 
  
 I use firmware made by a Russian user (should be links to it in the R10 thread). Much faster UI and improved sound.
  
 Most songs sound better to my ears but the Groove does have a bit more low end than the R10.
  
 Also tried the Groove on my Chromebook and it works. So it seems to be plug-and play with everything except Windows (for which you'll need to jump on 1 leg to get the drivers).
  
 With my Note 3, there is some static (popping) when playing music through the Groove. The Groove doesn't get quite as hot when connected to the Note 3 vs. a computer so I'm betting it's a bit starved for power but it works. Static happens in UAPP and Pandora. No static in VLC when playing movies though but, strangely, static returns when playing music using VLC.


----------



## kawaivpc1

gr8soundz said:


> I use firmware made by a Russian user (should be links to it in the R10 thread). Much faster UI and improved sound.
> 
> Most songs sound better to my ears but the Groove does have a bit more low end than the R10.
> 
> ...




I will buy an R10 again then. 

Have you tried HibyMusic app? It's an app like UAPP but it's far more stable and compatible than UAPP.
Try this app and let me know how it sounds with Groove. HibyMusic is designed for DACs. 

I guess the less sound quality could be caused by lack of power. 
It may work better on my Note 4 with 10,000mAh battery case.


----------



## gr8soundz

Tried HibyMusic but got tired of the app restarting itself after I closed it. Had to keep shutting it down manually for some reason. Plan to try again at some point.


----------



## pete321

My groove hardly gets warm at all, I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing.
  
 It drives my HD650s fine, but have to crank it to 100 for most songs to be pretty loud.


----------



## gr8soundz

I only had the Groove stay at max volume once with the HD650. Happened for an old 80s song. Max vol is far too loud on newer or remastered tracks.
  
 The heat might be an indicator of how much power is available to it. Less heat, perhaps less power output.


----------



## pete321

I could have sworn when I first started using it, it used to get hot, but not anymore.
  
 From amazon and other places, it seems most people claim theirs gets hot so that's kind of weird.
  
 max volume is loud for me but not too much that I have to turn it down. I would prefer about 25% louder.
  
 I guess I'll email their tech support and see what they say.


----------



## pearljam50000

How is the bass, soundstage?


----------



## sheldaze

pearljam50000 said:


> How is the bass, soundstage?


 
 I'm not sure what you mean, because I tend to think of bass and soundstage as being an attribute of a speaker and not the AMP or DAC. But here's my interpretation.
  
 There are headphones I own that seem "thin" when driven by a weaker power source. The AKG Q701 comes to mind. I most recently "borrowed" a Sony MDR-V6 and found it behaved similarly, missing the bass when driven by a weak source. Both headphones, when driven by the Groove have plenty of accuracy and deep bass.
  
 On the opposite end of the spectrum, the Sennheiser HD650 can often sound veiled. It too sounds quite full and detailed when driven by the Groove amplifier. The Groove truly seems to push headphones, all that I have tried, to a more detailed sound signature.
  
 I'm not going to comment on soundstage, which I still think is an attribute of the headphone.


----------



## pearljam50000

Thanks!
That is exactly what i meant.


----------



## EleventyPlusOne

Has anyone had the chance to compare the Groove with other existing smaller amp/DACs?


----------



## sheldaze

eleventyplusone said:


> Has anyone had the chance to compare the Groove with other existing smaller amp/DACs?


 
 Do you have any specific ones in mind?
  
 I've made a small collection, because I feel there are many good values to be had. And it let's you play around with various amp/DAC options to hear the differences when paired with each headphone


----------



## EleventyPlusOne

sheldaze said:


> Do you have any specific ones in mind?
> 
> I've made a small collection, because I feel there are many good values to be had. And it let's you play around with various amp/DAC options to hear the differences when paired with each headphone


 

 I was looking at the Oppo HA-2, Dragonfly v1.2, and the Geek Out IEM dac/amp. I only have a Fiio E07K to run my 846s so any information you might have will definitely be helpful. Thanks!


----------



## pearljam50000

Explorer2 and magni 2 would also be cool


----------



## sheldaze

eleventyplusone said:


> I was looking at the Oppo HA-2, Dragonfly v1.2, and the Geek Out IEM dac/amp. I only have a Fiio E07K to run my 846s so any information you might have will definitely be helpful. Thanks!


 

 Have you checked out the Oppo HA-2 thread? I think that box is on an entirely different level from these other boxes. I have it in my queue to catch up with the reviews there, but have not found the time 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I've heard the Dragonfly version 1.2, and feel that it was once the premium DAC/AMP. Now it seems that there are many other options that are smoother, more detailed, more power, etc. I would recommend against the Dragonfly, simply due to the other options available today.


----------



## sheldaze

pearljam50000 said:


> Explorer2 and magni 2 would also be cool


 

 I will quite often connect my Explorer2 into my Magni 2 or Vali. It's a good match


----------



## EleventyPlusOne

sheldaze said:


> Have you checked out the Oppo HA-2 thread? I think that box is on an entirely different level from these other boxes. I have it in my queue to catch up with the reviews there, but have not found the time
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I have a bit, but the packaging and description of the Groove have me intrigued. I'm also not AS interested in devices with batteries since I have an irrational fear of them going bad, and the device I'm shopping for is to use primarily in my office and on planes with my MacBook Pro. Many thanks for your notes on the Dragonfly - looks like I will be ordering myself a Groove soon!


----------



## j-dawg

> Originally Posted by *sheldaze* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> ...
> 
> I'm not going to comment on soundstage, which I still think is an attribute of the headphone.


 
  
 My experience is, soundstage can vary noticeably from one dac to another, and one amp to another.  I notice this most with iem's, SE 535 in my case, and notice it much less if at all, with open back full size headphones.


----------



## sheldaze

j-dawg said:


> My experience is, soundstage can vary noticeably from one dac to another, and one amp to another.  I notice this most with iem's, SE 535 in my case, and notice it much less if at all, with open back full size headphones.


 

 I'll agree and disagree, and try to explain 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I'll agree because I've heard exactly what you're describing with my stereo speakers. I switched between two amplifiers, made by the same manufacturer mind you! The new amplifier was spec'd to 170 watts per channel, which was higher than the amplifier I had been using (probably 120 watts). The new amp was also in a more convenient package. But I listened and listened and started to lose my mind, until I realized that the sound had changed dramatically. Switching back to the original "lesser" amplifier, the soundstage returned. The same thing happened when switching from what I would call a "standard" DAC (i.e. Schiit Bifrost w/ Uber, Oppo BDP-105) to a Meridian Director. Think what you will of the proprietary processing that Meridian runs, with no options to turn off - the soundstage again grew wider, taller, deeper, whatever adjectives you would use to describe it.
  
 I too have heard soundstage when a specific DAC/AMP is paired with a specific headphone. But to my ears, it is not to say that because DAC/AMP model A works well with headphones B, that it will also work well with headphones A and C. It just doesn't sound that way to me. What created a vast, amazing stage for me with one headphone will often fall flat with the next headphone, despite IMHO the next headphone having a generally larger soundstage. So that's why I tend not to try to focus on soundstage when speaking of headphones and DAC/AMP products. It may be a magical pairing, or not 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Just my thoughts


----------



## j-dawg

sheldaze said:


> I'll agree and disagree, and try to explain
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Very well explained thank you!  I totally get it, and agree with your approach.  Thank you for the insight!


----------



## gr8soundz

As I mentioned earlier, compared to iFi's iDSD Micro, the Apogee couldn't quite match its soundstage.
  
 The Groove sounds great and has a good (but not immense) amount of soundstage (also depends on headphone being used and whether it is capable of exhibiting a very wide soundstage). I used both the HD598 and HD650 and a Fiio HS2 switcher to test. My other headphones are mostly closed and have a lower soundstage ceiling. To my ears, the 598 carries a wider soundstage than the 650 although the 650 beats it in many other areas.
  
 I could hear a distinct difference in soundstage between both dac/amps. The Groove sounded smooth and wide until I switched to the iDSD Micro and the width increased (by my ears) roughly 20% on most tracks. Both have full metal outer casings but the Micro does have an internal battery and dual dac chips (even though it's not balanced). The Groove, being much smaller, gets much hotter in comparison but it can still drive high-impedance headphones.
  
 That is the Groove's main advantage. Its small enough to fit on a keyring (even has a notched loop to attach a wrist strap) and still drive headphones like the hungry HD650 to ear splitting levels.
  
 FYI: Just ignore the Groove if you only have Windows......
  
 EDIT: for reference the iDSD Micro's dac section has been argued to be second (for portables) only to the Chord Hugo's. I used it to give a better picture of perhaps a TOTL soundstage. I also have a Fiio E17 but it's hard to compare only soundstage against it and the Groove. Imo, both have similar levels of soundstage but the Groove just sounds so much better all around. The E17 can be had for about half the Groove's price putting the Groove almost exactly between the E17 and Micro (in sound and price). Again, no battery in the Groove but certainly the most portable although the other 2 work much more stably with my Note 3.


----------



## RedJohn456

gr8soundz said:


> As I mentioned earlier, compared to iFi's iDSD Micro, the Apogee couldn't quite match its soundstage.
> 
> The Groove sounds great and has a good (but not immense) amount of soundstage (also depends on headphone being used and whether it is capable of exhibiting a very wide soundstage). I used both the HD598 and HD650 and a Fiio HS2 switcher to test. My other headphones are mostly closed and have a lower soundstage ceiling. To my ears, the 598 carries a wider soundstage than the 650 although the 650 beats it in many other areas.
> 
> ...


 

 I am currently in the market to get an amp and dac and I am currently using a Fiio E17 with my mac. Will the groove be a noticeable upgradE? 
  
 I am also considering the likes of Headstage Arrow 5TX and Leckerton UHA 6S MKII.


----------



## gr8soundz

redjohn456 said:


> I am currently in the market to get an amp and dac and I am currently using a Fiio E17 with my mac. Will the groove be a noticeable upgradE?
> 
> I am also considering the likes of Headstage Arrow 5TX and Leckerton UHA 6S MKII.


 
  
 I think it would. The Groove (as a dac and amp combined) sounded much better overall (bass quality, treble clarity; much smoother; soundstage and warmth, imo, about the same) than my E17. The E17 is no slouch but the Groove was that much better on my Mac and Chromebook (don't recommend it for Windows). Is it worth double the price? Only you can answer that after trying it for yourself.


----------



## HiFiGuy528

I was able to get Groove to work on Sony ZX2 Walkman that runs Android v. (old) and Sony A17 Walkman.


----------



## RedJohn456

hifiguy528 said:


> I was able to get Groove to work on Sony ZX2 Walkman that runs Android v. (old) and Sony A17 Walkman.


 

 how do they sound with the Z5? I am on the fence about it and I found a local store selling the groove for 367 canadian.


----------



## HiFiGuy528

redjohn456 said:


> how do they sound with the Z5? I am on the fence about it and I found a local store selling the groove for 367 canadian.


 
  
 Z5 is perhaps the BEST pairing with Groove.


----------



## RedJohn456

hifiguy528 said:


> Z5 is perhaps the BEST pairing with Groove.


 

 would it be as good as balanced out of the PHA-3? I am hoping to use the groove as my only amp/dac for a long time. So am hoping to have it future proof as well.


----------



## HiFiGuy528

redjohn456 said:


> would it be as good as balanced out of the PHA-3? I am hoping to use the groove as my only amp/dac for a long time. So am hoping to have it future proof as well.


 
 PHA-3 sounds better in that regards.
  
 Here's my little hack.


----------



## pearljam50000

@HiFiGuy528
 Can the Groove drive the HD800?
 Thanks!


----------



## HiFiGuy528

pearljam50000 said:


> @HiFiGuy528
> Can the Groove drive the HD800?
> Thanks!


 
  
 I'll give it a go today and report back.


----------



## pearljam50000

Thank you very much!
I really appreciate it.
Love your videos on youtube


----------



## glitchesnetwork

I ordered my groove and expect to receive it in 2 days. I don't have a usb power hub and I'm wondering if anyone connected one to it and did it provide anything? Thanks!


----------



## sheldaze

glitchesnetwork said:


> I ordered my groove and expect to receive it in 2 days. I don't have a usb power hub and I'm wondering if anyone connected one to it and did it provide anything? Thanks!


 
 I am happily running this straight from my MacBook laptop. No powered hub or other devices.
 It's a great question! Maybe someone else is?


----------



## HiFiGuy528

pearljam50000 said:


> @HiFiGuy528
> 
> Can the Groove drive the HD800?
> Thanks!




No problem. Sounds great!


----------



## pearljam50000

Thanks alot for your effort!


----------



## glitchesnetwork

Atlas, it's here!
  

  

  

  
 Personal review coming soon.


----------



## glitchesnetwork

Alright i'll try to keep this short and simple. I've gotten 15+ hours with my the groove and it's a noticeable change immediately.
  
  
 Test #1
  
 Equipment: Apogee Groove, Sennheiser momentum v2, Spotify
  
 Results: Freaking amazing! I just got these headphones 2 weeks ago and they were good. Now after receiving the apogee groove they are amazing! I've tested with modern electronic music, dnb, rock, down tempo, hip hop, and some very vocal stuff like lana del rey. Everything was excellent. The music felt very full and I was able to pick up a lot easier on lows that were brought to my attention. This made me appreciate my momentums in a whole new light.
  
  
 Test #2
  
 Equipment: Apogee Groove, Sennheiser HD 650, Spotify and FLAC
  
 Results: I must say I'm not very impressed. I was able to hear noise and certain music just sucked. It seemed like only certain music sounded good. To be fair, these were a pair of brand new HD 650s I had laying around in the box. I've never used them before and I don't have another amp to test them with. These are also considered reference headphones so maybe I'm enjoying the coloration of the momentums more? All I know is that the combo didn't sound very versatile. Great for acoustic like music but my playlist actually has a mixture of blends. I would probably reach out for my momentums more often that the 650s if thats saying anything.
  
  
 Summary:
  
 So anyways, I might've gotten a little derailed there with the test #2 but the groove is wonderful. My first test case was at work and my second was at home. The second test was really just for fun because I wanted to try out the HD 650s. Maybe they aren't to my liking but I would consider the noise an issue regardless. The point of the groove was to pair with headphones at work (momentums) and they added that spark to the momentums that they missing.
  
 If anyone cares, I just ordered a pair of Audeze LCD-3 and Audeze EL-8's. I will be testing with them soon when they arrive. Thanks!
  
  
*EDIT*
  
 I almost forgot a little piece of important information. I use a Macbook Pro Retina at both locations. Same exact model and specs but I did notice a USB problem with one. At my office computer I had to fiddle with the USB connection a little to get it to show up in my system preferences. I thought the groove was DOA for a while until I seen it blink once in my system preferences. I don't know what makes it do that and it's annoying but once I got it stable it works fine. On the other hand, when I took it home and connected it to my computer there it showed up just fine each time I plugged it in. Just something to know.


----------



## RedJohn456

I am really interested in the groove and I was wondering how it compares to the following in terms of sound quality?
  
 - Oppo HA2
 - iBasso D14
 - Headstage Arrow 5TX
 - Leckerton Audio 6S MKII
  
 Thanks in advance! @HiFiGuy528 I would love it if you could chime in, if you have any of these gear to compare with? I am just trying to see if the groove is giving me the best performance for the money.


----------



## glitchesnetwork

redjohn456 said:


> I am really interested in the groove and I was wondering how it compares to the following in terms of sound quality?
> 
> - Oppo HA2
> - iBasso D14
> ...


 
 Hello, I was looking into the Oppa HA2 as well. My research has shown that the Oppa HA2 is designed for mobility. I would use it with a phone. On the other hand, groove was designed for portability and connecting with a laptop.


----------



## HiFiGuy528

redjohn456 said:


> I am really interested in the groove and I was wondering how it compares to the following in terms of sound quality?
> 
> - Oppo HA2
> - iBasso D14
> ...


 
  
 I don't have any of those amps.  Sorry I can't be of any help.


----------



## Edwood

Any luck with the Apogee Groove and a Samsung Note 4 with KitKat 4.4.4?


----------



## pete321

Would a powered USB hub provide noticeably more power (volume) to a USB amp like the groove?
  
 My notebook is a bit old and seems to be only able to do 05.A (500mA) per port, but some of the charging ports on hubs can do 2.1A so that's 4x more.


----------



## glitchesnetwork

I've been using the Apogee Groove for a little over a week now and wanted to point an annoyance. It seems to have a problem making a stable connection when showing up on my system output preferences. I'm on a Macbook Pro Retina with an ethernet cable plugged into the other usb power via a mac usb adapter. In order to make a stable connection I unplug my ethernet first, plug in my groove, then my ethernet. Has anyone else have to unplug other devices first? Maybe I need a usb power hub?


----------



## sheldaze

glitchesnetwork said:


> I've been using the Apogee Groove for a little over a week now and wanted to point an annoyance. It seems to have a problem making a stable connection when showing up on my system output preferences. I'm on a Macbook Pro Retina with an ethernet cable plugged into the other usb power via a mac usb adapter. In order to make a stable connection I unplug my ethernet first, plug in my groove, then my ethernet. Has anyone else have to unplug other devices first? Maybe I need a usb power hub?


 

 Interesting! I have been using it only via playback software, which always takes exclusive rights over the DAC never letting any of the Mac background sounds play through. I'll have to try direct audio, such as for Tidal and YouTube in Chrome for music playback. I do not, however, have an Ethernet cable plugged into my MacBook. So I will not be testing other devices plugged in.


----------



## glitchesnetwork

sheldaze said:


> Interesting! I have been using it only via playback software, which always takes exclusive rights over the DAC never letting any of the Mac background sounds play through. I'll have to try direct audio, such as for Tidal and YouTube in Chrome for music playback. I do not, however, have an Ethernet cable plugged into my MacBook. So I will not be testing other devices plugged in.


 
 Before the software takes exclusive rights to your DAC, it must first show up in your system preferences sound output and in your midi controller right? That's the issue I'm having. I contacted Apogee and the conversation ended with them suggesting the groove I have might be slightly defected as I should not be having this issue. I'm in the process of exchanging this one now for a new one. (I hope it gets here before my new headphones do 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 )


----------



## sheldaze

glitchesnetwork said:


> Before the software takes exclusive rights to your DAC, it must first show up in your system preferences sound output and in your midi controller right? That's the issue I'm having. I contacted Apogee and the conversation ended with them suggesting the groove I have might be slightly defected as I should not be having this issue. I'm in the process of exchanging this one now for a new one. (I hope it gets here before my new headphones do
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Yes! I've not seen that issue. Sorry to hear that


----------



## HiFiGuy528

glitchesnetwork said:


> I've been using the Apogee Groove for a little over a week now and wanted to point an annoyance. It seems to have a problem making a stable connection when showing up on my system output preferences. I'm on a Macbook Pro Retina with an ethernet cable plugged into the other usb power via a mac usb adapter. In order to make a stable connection I unplug my ethernet first, plug in my groove, then my ethernet. Has anyone else have to unplug other devices first? Maybe I need a usb power hub?


 
  
 Zero issues with mine. I'm on MacBook Pro with Retina display.


----------



## audiobot

Will these sound good with the HD600 or HD650? I chickened out and canceled my order from adorama because I was unsure of the sound signature with this combo.


----------



## Vishwas Meti

I bit the offer and bought the one available on Adorama ( HD 650 and Apogee groove bundle ). I must say i am loving it  I badly needed a HD 650 anyways and this DAC / Amp really seems to be running my HD 650 fine. 
  
 I havent had an experience with other amps before ( Ran my HD 598 with the Fiio E6 ) only. So, i cant make a comparision like others , but i am satisfied , some songs put this huge smile on my face now 
  
 If you are not the one for Sennheiser, i believe the offer on Audio Technica ATH m70x at 329$ looks really awesome. This offer makes those headphones like 30$ in price. You cant beat that.


----------



## sheldaze

I was unaware of the deal, combo HD650 and Apogee Groove. They are a good pairing - other amps I have owned simply do not drive these headphones properly:
  

AudioQuest DragonFly version 1.2
HRT microStreamer
Meridian Explorer versions 1 and 2
Schiit Fulla
  
 I plan at some point in future to listen to and compare against CEntrance and Geek Out. But to my ears, the Groove sounds quite nice!
  
 Perhaps the Fulla is an option for those on a budget, but the sound is not at the same level as the Groove. And apparently you'd be on your own trying to find a good deal on the HD650.


----------



## audiobot

So its either: HD600 ($350) + Apogee Groove ($295) for *$399 *





                      HD650 ($450) + Apogee Groove ($295) for *$499*
*                     *M70X ($299) + Apogee Groove ($295) for* $329*
  
  
 I mainly listen to hiphop and rock (alternative, classic, indie). Which should I choose?


----------



## audiobot

Going to go with the 650+groove deal.


----------



## pearljam50000

sheldaze said:


> I was unaware of the deal, combo HD650 and Apogee Groove. They are a good pairing - other amps I have owned simply do not drive these headphones properly:
> 
> 
> AudioQuest DragonFly version 1.2
> ...


 
 Do you feel the amp is powerful enough for the HD650?


----------



## sheldaze

pearljam50000 said:


> Do you feel the amp is powerful enough for the HD650?


 
 Yes 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I'll give it another serious listen in the near future. From what I recall, it was more than just a synergy based on power. It was as-if the veil had been lifted. I personally found the AKG Q701 a little bright, but necessary to keep around because my HD650 was definitely on the dark and murky side. But when I mated the HD650 with the Apogee Groove, the sound had filled in quite nicely. Bottom line is my Q701 are now on sale, mostly because I found the HD650 quite satisfying when paired with the proper amp, such as the Apogee Groove.


----------



## Eggtuary

Has anyone compared the HD600 and HD650 through the Groove?
  
 Some of the earlier posts in this thread indicate that the Apogee Groove's constant current has the effect of flattening the frequency response curve.  This makes me think that it would therefore reduce differences between headphones that are already pretty similar.  If that's true, then would it make the Sennheiser HD600 and HD650 even more similar than through a normal amp?  I ask because Adorama is offering the Groove effectively free with either of these two great Senn headphones.  Many people have struggled over the years to hear a lot of difference between the HD600 and HD650, anyway, and question whether the HD650 is worth the extra $100.  But if the Groove levels the playing field that much more between these headphones, then maybe it makes more sense than ever to go with the HD600 over the 650?
  
 Unfortunately, I don't have a good audio store in my area where I can compare the HD600 and HD650.  But I've listened to the HD558 and HD598.  I liked them both, but wanted something that could deliver a fuller sound.  All the reviews I read indicate that the 600 and 650 would fit this role perfectly, and it really just comes down to relatively minor preferences when choosing between them.
  
 Thoughts?


----------



## monkey4054

I'm really close to buying the Groove, however I'm wondering how it stacks up to others like:
  
 Dragonfly, Explorer, HA-2, Dacport etc..
  
 I would be looking to use it on my Windows PC, with my Fidelio X2s. Would the Groove be worth it for me??
  
 Also, does anyone have any experience with the Audioquest Jitter Bug? Would it help to improve the sound of the Groove if I bought it too? Or is it pointless?


----------



## sheldaze

monkey4054 said:


> I'm really close to buying the Groove, however I'm wondering how it stacks up to others like:
> 
> Dragonfly, Explorer, HA-2, Dacport etc..
> 
> ...


 
 AudioQuest DragonFly version 1.2 was my first DAC/AMP. I loved it, but I do feel it has been surpassed in quality by everything that I have heard since. It's still a good solid amp, and you'll have many wonderful hours of pleasure listening to it. Try to find it used - it would be your cheapest option.
  
 Explorer - not sure if you're talking version 1 or 2. Version 1 was an improvement over the DragonFly, but it wasn't a vast improvement. Also note that it has a relatively high output impedance, which did not mate well with a lot of my headphones. Your Philips Fidelio X2 headphones have a relatively low input impedance, so I don't think it'll be a good match. I like the Explorer2, though I personally use it today more for its DAC capabilities than for its amplifier capabilities. Your ears and gear may vary - my closest headphone to your X2, in terms of being low impedance and relative ease to drive, is Denon AH-D2000. And for this, I prefer the sound of my HRT microStreamer more than Explorer2. But don't forget that Explorer2 and most other options on your list are around $300, about twice the street cost of the DragonFly.
  
 I've read good reviews of the Oppo HA-2. It is a lot of product for the money. Try going through their thread. The link below is a good starting point, where it is compared favorably with the LH Labs GeekOut:
  
http://www.head-fi.org/t/755879/oppo-ha-2-portable-headphone-amplifier-dac-discussion-thread/90#post_11354475
  
 I'm in the process of trying to acquire the other options on your list, but I've not heard any of these as yet:
  

AudioQuest JitterBug
CEntrance DacPort HD
LH Labs Geek Out V2 (possibly similar sound as the HA-2)
  
 I've told other people I really like the Apogee Grove - and I do! Only I prefer its sound when it's used to drive something that either takes a larger voltage swing due to a high input impedance (i.e. Sennheiser HD650) or something that takes a lot of current, such as a planar headphone. While I don't think it'll do any harm to your X2, I don't think it'll shine with them either. If you're planning to continue to try other headphones, you might consider the Groove. I don't have the X2 (or your ears 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) but for me with my easy to drive Denon, I preferred the microStreamer.


----------



## monkey4054

sheldaze said:


> AudioQuest DragonFly version 1.2 was my first DAC/AMP. I loved it, but I do feel it has been surpassed in quality by everything that I have heard since. It's still a good solid amp, and you'll have many wonderful hours of pleasure listening to it. Try to find it used - it would be your cheapest option.
> 
> Explorer - not sure if you're talking version 1 or 2. Version 1 was an improvement over the DragonFly, but it wasn't a vast improvement. Also note that it has a relatively high output impedance, which did not mate well with a lot of my headphones. Your Philips Fidelio X2 headphones have a relatively low input impedance, so I don't think it'll be a good match. I like the Explorer2, though I personally use it today more for its DAC capabilities than for its amplifier capabilities. Your ears and gear may vary - my closest headphone to your X2, in terms of being low impedance and relative ease to drive, is Denon AH-D2000. And for this, I prefer the sound of my HRT microStreamer more than Explorer2. But don't forget that Explorer2 and most other options on your list are around $300, about twice the street cost of the DragonFly.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi, thanks for your reply.
  
 If I did get the Groove it would definitely be an investment as I will continue to try different, harder to drive headphones in the future. How would you describe the sound of the Microstreamer compared to the Groove? Does it really sound better with easier to drive headphones? I've  been tossing up between the Groove, Microstreamer, Dragonfly and maybe and O2/ODAC.
  
 I've also heard really good things about the Jitter Bug, but I'm still not convinced of how much it will improve the sound. It costs $80 here in Aus and I'm not sure its worth it.


----------



## sheldaze

monkey4054 said:


> Hi, thanks for your reply.
> 
> If I did get the Groove it would definitely be an investment as I will continue to try different, harder to drive headphones in the future. How would you describe the sound of the Microstreamer compared to the Groove? Does it really sound better with easier to drive headphones? I've  been tossing up between the Groove, Microstreamer, Dragonfly and maybe and O2/ODAC.
> 
> I've also heard really good things about the Jitter Bug, but I'm still not convinced of how much it will improve the sound. It costs $80 here in Aus and I'm not sure its worth it.


 
 Well, if you're _not_ looking for portability, the O2/ODAC opens up a whole new power source - A/C 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Whereas I think (from my listening experiments) that I prefer one or another USB/DAC/AMP based on the headphones, once you have a good solid-state amp with A/C power, you can really play with many different headphones. This may be the way to go if you're trying to keep one box to be used to experiment. The O2/ODAC are still well-regarded - do these allow for an external source, such as an upgraded DAC or CD player? The new Schiit Uber stack (I have not heard the Magni 2 Uber or Modi 2 Uber) is also getting good reviews. I personally settled on a JDS Labs Element, from which I will drive any of my headphones regardless of how hard or easy they are to drive.There is still to me a significant difference between a desktop rig and a rig powered only by USB. But I'm not going to take my desktop rig into the sunroom or on a road trip to the beach


----------



## monkey4054

sheldaze said:


> Well, if you're _not_ looking for portability, the O2/ODAC opens up a whole new power source - A/C
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Nice! I was also considering buying The Element as well, but I wasn't sure I could justify it. If  I was only looking to buy something as a fixed, desk DAC/AMP, would you take something like the Element or the O2/ODAC over the Microstreamer/Groove/Explorer. Is there a difference in sound quality or is it just a case of different sound signatures and an increase in amping power?


----------



## sheldaze

monkey4054 said:


> Nice! I was also considering buying The Element as well, but I wasn't sure I could justify it. If  I was only looking to buy something as a fixed, desk DAC/AMP, would you take something like the Element or the O2/ODAC over the Microstreamer/Groove/Explorer. Is there a difference in sound quality or is it just a case of different sound signatures and an increase in amping power?


 
 Fixed, desktop, rig, whatever you call it is better on all measures than a portable 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I think the reason is you've got space for bigger, better components, and space allows for reduced electrical interference between the components and better shielding, and you just cannot beat the A/C power source. Perhaps there are a few portable rigs that rely on battery power, but you'd be paying more to have it done right. Some people have spoken highly of the CEntrance HiFI-M8. But even then, when they return to their high end desktop system...it's like when I listen to the Groove, my ears tell me this is really good. But then when I return to the desktop setup, it's just better. I haven't heard all the best USB options, as yet, but desktop still has the ones I've heard beat.


----------



## monkey4054

sheldaze said:


> Fixed, desktop, rig, whatever you call it is better on all measures than a portable
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Ok, great! Looks like I'll be going for something like the O2/ODAC or The Element. Have you heard both of these? Is the Element worth the price? If it is, then I'll definitely get it, it will be a future investment of course.


----------



## sheldaze

monkey4054 said:


> Ok, great! Looks like I'll be going for something like the O2/ODAC or The Element. Have you heard both of these? Is the Element worth the price? If it is, then I'll definitely get it, it will be a future investment of course.


 
 Nope - done a lot of lurking and reading, as I suspect you're doing 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I'm starting to listen to some planar magnetic headphones, with both low impedance (low relative to HD650) and high current requirements. Whereas my tubes were okay, I had to get a solid state amplifier to drive these new headphones. After my (Element) amp purchase, someone suggested I compare it to my existing (tube) amps, and whooo-boy! I still suspect the upgrades are more visual than anything - large knob on the top, and only the headphone jack on the front. It's just clean looking and a smooth large knob provides for easy volume control. I'm happy with the price, but it is a little expensive considering I don't use the internal DAC.


----------



## glitchesnetwork

glitchesnetwork said:


> Before the software takes exclusive rights to your DAC, it must first show up in your system preferences sound output and in your midi controller right? That's the issue I'm having. I contacted Apogee and the conversation ended with them suggesting the groove I have might be slightly defected as I should not be having this issue. I'm in the process of exchanging this one now for a new one. (I hope it gets here before my new headphones do
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
*Update:* Just received my replacement Apogee Groove and this one is making a stable connection each time I replug it back in. My last one was clearly defective. I didn't realize how much I really missed this little amp/dac because now my music sounds full again!


----------



## blse59

I just got my Groove and I have to say the sound is great! One question though - I'm running this on Windows 10 using the latest 3.0 drivers from Apogee's website. I installed the drivers and plugged in my Groove and that was it. Everything was left at default. Is this all I need for it to be capable to play back 24-bit/192kHz files or do I need to fiddle with something in the settings? I was hoping the LED would light a different color when playing hi-res files so I know it's working but it's still lighting green.


----------



## sheldaze

blse59 said:


> I just got my Groove and I have to say the sound is great! One question though - I'm running this on Windows 10 using the latest 3.0 drivers from Apogee's website. I installed the drivers and plugged in my Groove and that was it. Everything was left at default. Is this all I need for it to be capable to play back 24-bit/192kHz files or do I need to fiddle with something in the settings? I was hoping the LED would light a different color when playing hi-res files so I know it's working but it's still lighting green.


 

 That reminds me - I need to try out some DACs since my laptop "upgraded" itself to Windows10. Previously, I would recommend any user under Windows 7 use Foobar2000. It's a great interface to be sure you're spitting out the bits cleanly, and it gives you more details on exactly what audio you're feeding into your DAC. But I will need to go home and try this myself!
  
 I'll let you know!


----------



## blse59

sheldaze said:


> That reminds me - I need to try out some DACs since my laptop "upgraded" itself to Windows10. Previously, I would recommend any user under Windows 7 use Foobar2000. It's a great interface to be sure you're spitting out the bits cleanly, and it gives you more details on exactly what audio you're feeding into your DAC. But I will need to go home and try this myself!
> 
> I'll let you know!


 

 Windows 10 is great! As far as I know the audio subsystem is just as good as the one in Windows 8.1. Here's an article you might find interesting:
  
 http://archimago.blogspot.com/2015/08/measurements-audiophile-sound-and.html


----------



## sheldaze

blse59 said:


> Windows 10 is great! As far as I know the audio subsystem is just as good as the one in Windows 8.1.


 
 Glad to hear! I'm by default a Mac person, but I do on occasion test my stuff on Windows. Now I need to try out the Apogee drivers, make sure Foobar2000 still runs, etc. etc.


----------



## Edwood

Just got an Apogee Groove.  
  
 It works with my Samsung Note 4 (T-Mobile with Android 4.4.4) without a battery + usb cable splitter adapter.  
  
 The Groove's built in amp is pretty terrible, at least with IEM's like my JH Audio Layla.  The sound is heavily veiled, almost muffled sounding, with the soundstage and imaging really smeared.  It's basically like putting cotton balls in your ears.  Using the headphone out from the Groove to my Pico Power greatly improves the sound.   So perhaps the Groove does not play nice with multi balanced armatures like in custom IEM's.  
  
 I also dislike that Windows drivers are not available without registering.  I question the legality of such a maneuver, as it limits the functionality of their product; and (at least in California) registering a product is not required for full warranty coverage claims.  Not having a driver for a product is basically not delivering a complete product as advertised.  
 I don't see the point of them limiting the release of Windows drivers, other than to limit 2nd hand sales of their Groove.


----------



## Bananiq

blse59 said:


> Windows 10 is great! As far as I know the audio subsystem is just as good as the one in Windows 8.1. Here's an article you might find interesting:
> 
> http://archimago.blogspot.com/2015/08/measurements-audiophile-sound-and.html


 

 article states: "*I am unable to find evidence to say that OS changes will make any difference to analogue audio output from a modern asynchronous USB DAC" *
 that means to me that I stick to Windows 7


----------



## sheldaze

bananiq said:


> article states: "*I am unable to find evidence to say that OS changes will make any difference to analogue audio output from a modern asynchronous USB DAC" *
> that means to me that I stick to Windows 7


 

 Personally I would recommend staying at your current OS, not specifically due to any reported issues with the Apogee but:
  

Due to personal issues related to my own Windows 10 upgraded system. The OS seems to be a work in progress, and is getting better by the day as patches are added. But if it is your main system (I use a Mac as my main system), you might want to keep it stable for the moment.
Due to issues I have read reported by other DAC users and their drivers being incompatible or at least very difficult to install correctly in the Windows 10 environment.


----------



## canyondust

Picked a Groove up today for my mobile edit rig.. So far so good. Form factor is great, but the buttons are actually quite stiff..like you need to hold the unit in your hand when pressing the buttons or you shake the table it's sitting on. Maybe they'll loosen up with time, but because (at least on a mac) the Apogee driver slaves the system volume to the groove volume setting, I can use the normal volume up/down on my keyboard instead of the buttons on the Groove, which is fine by me. That will also allow me to put electrical tape over the LEDs so I don't have to look at them (personal preference). I haven't done any critical listening to it yet versus my Centrance DACMini, but so far I've listened for about 1 hour on my Audeze LCD-2r2s and there is plenty of drive power in the Groove. When editing quiet dialogue (my 'day job') I wish it had more power, but that's what the DACMini is for, and I cut on higher sensitivity cans when I'm on the mix stage (which is what I bought the Groove for anyway). Ran a Pro Tools session at 192Khz/32-bit with no issues at all, though I bet the last 8 bits are getting truncated at the converter, but at what... -130dbfs? I'll never hear it.
  
 So all in all it's doing exactly what I want/need it too, and it sounds pretty good to my ears right out of the gate. Lots of bass on the LCD-2s, maybe a bit more 'bloom' and less controlled than the DACmini, but I'll need more time to tell for sure. Mids seems more forward on the Groove too, and the top end a bit more grainy, less 'smooth', or perhaps 'more resolution?' again hard to tell on a quick listen.


----------



## RedJohn456

Thanks to Apogee I got a loaner groove unit today. It honestly surpassed all my expectations. It honestly everything sound much better. Not like a subtle difference but a large difference.
  
 Thanks again to  @HiFiGuy528 for recommending this. I have a feeling I might be picking up a unit of my own at the end of the loaner period  
  
 Makes the Sony Z5 bass sound so tight and controlled. Makes the VE Zen earbud sound like open backs and the VE Duke a DETAIL and CLARITY monster, so damn engaging!


----------



## Tjinnitus

4 out of 5 only in WHF, which is my highest rated magazine, concerning reviews. Tough luck.


----------



## sheldaze

tjinnitus said:


> 4 out of 5 only in WHF, which is my highest rated magazine, concerning reviews. Tough luck.


 

 Women's Health and Fitness 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 But seriously, I do not know what magazine you are referring to.


----------



## Tjinnitus

How can they not give it 5?


----------



## Tjinnitus

sheldaze said:


> Women's Health and Fitness
> 
> But seriously, I do not know what magazine you are referring to.



Close, but no cigar  What HiFi


----------



## tomjtx

Just got my Apogee Grove. It drives my AKG 701 with ease. Ditto my various IEMs. Zero complaints here. I only wish I had known about the Adorama bundle.


----------



## RichardSumilang

I've owned this dac/amp for about 2 months now. Loved it since the day I took it out of the box.


----------



## sheldaze

richardsumilang said:


> I've owned this dac/amp for about 2 months now. Loved it since the day I took it out of the box.


 
 I noticed your post in the LH Labs Geek Out thread.
  
 Here's the thing for me. I understand that when talking about a DAC sound, it all comes down to implementation. That is an ESS can sound identical to a PCM or TI chip. Even a well-implmented D-S can be indistinguishable from a good R2R. I get that, but I also have three implementations of a Sabre DAC, including the Geek Out V2. And I am immediately enamored with the detail and spaciousness of the Sabre sound.
  
 Then my ears grow tired of the Sabre sound about 3 days later (in 2 of the 3 implementations). So I have to conclude, it must have something to do with the chipset. In the case of the Geek Out V2 versus the Apogee Groove, I switched back to the Groove and liked what I heard. While it wasn't as detailed, it was more easy to listen to, particularly at a higher volume. In fact I switched to a couple of other USB AMP/DAC that I have collected. And none of them had the sound that tired my ears with the Sabre.
  
 I hope this is somewhere along the line of what you are asking? I don't personally see the Geek Out V2 as a 100% upgrade to the Groove. It has more detail and an amplifier that mates well with a wider variety of headphones. But it has a sound that my ears find fatiguing after a few days. As always, your mileage may vary greatly! There are many, many fans of the Sabre sound. And even admittedly, one of my three implementations sounds simply fantastic with it.


----------



## Pedro83

Is this Groove considered on the bright side? I'm looking at alternatives from the meridian explorer2, it seems well documented the groove is better than the explorer dac/hpa. I use Beyer T5p and my concern would be the sabre 9018 sounding too bright, or does the amp tame things down? 
  
 Any advice greatly welcomed. 
  
 Regards.
  
 Pedro


----------



## sheldaze

pedro83 said:


> Is this Groove considered on the bright side? I'm looking at alternatives from the meridian explorer2, it seems well documented the groove is better than the explorer dac/hpa. I use Beyer T5p and my concern would be the sabre 9018 sounding too bright, or does the amp tame things down?
> 
> Any advice greatly welcomed.
> 
> ...


 
 No! Not bright at all!
  
 The issues with the Groove are pairing it with a heavy-enough load. It loved the 300 ohm impedance of my HD650 headphones. It did not like the 24 ohm, and very easy to drive, Denon AH-D2000 headphones.  The Groove also pairs well with some of the more current-heavy loads. I would guess and AKG would sound nice. I was shocked when I borrowed a Sony VR-6 how much the sound improved through the Groove. And I like it on HiFiMan headphones.
  
 I've no clue what the chipset is in the Groove?
  
 EDIT: It says ESS, but there's no glare. I think it is an ES9006 Sabre.


----------



## tranceFusion

I'm looking at the HD650 + Groove combo for $499..
  
 I've been wanting to get the HD650. Is this a good DAC/Amp to drive them if I don't care about portability? Or are people only excited about the Groove because it is small and doesn't require AC power? Would I be better off with a Schiit combo?


----------



## RichardSumilang

trancefusion said:


> I'm looking at the HD650 + Groove combo for $499..
> 
> I've been wanting to get the HD650. Is this a good DAC/Amp to drive them if I don't care about portability? Or are people only excited about the Groove because it is small and doesn't require AC power? Would I be better off with a Schiit combo?


 
 I like it because I personally think it sounds great. It's one of my favorites. The portability part of it is cool too but not the reason why I bought it. A matter of fact it's always sitting just in one place for me


----------



## adg4

edwood said:


> Just got an Apogee Groove.
> 
> It works with my Samsung Note 4 (T-Mobile with Android 4.4.4) without a battery + usb cable splitter adapter.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I just ordered the HD650 + Groove combo from Adorama and plan to use the Groove with my existing HD650's and will sell the new pair of headphones. However, the second pair of headphones I'd like to use with the Groove are Shure SE535's. In anticipation of the Groove, I was doing some searching and discovered this article on the Apogee website:
  
 http://www.apogeedigital.com/knowledgebase/groove/multi-driver-balanced-armature-iems-with-groove/
  
 It says: "Apogee does not recommend the Apogee Groove for use with multi-driver balanced armature in-ear monitors. Due to the design of the balanced armature drivers and crossover networks used in this type of headphone, the Groove’s Constant Current Drive amplifier technology may result in uneven frequency response when used with certain models."
  
I'm wondering if that's the reason your IEMs didn't seem to work well with the Groove. Also, I know my SE535's have multiple drivers, but are they also balanced armature?


----------



## RedJohn456

adg4 said:


> I just ordered the HD650 + Groove combo from Adorama and plan to use the Groove with my existing HD650's and will sell the new pair of headphones. However, the second pair of headphones I'd like to use with the Groove are Shure SE535's. In anticipation of the Groove, I was doing some searching and discovered this article on the Apogee website:
> 
> http://www.apogeedigital.com/knowledgebase/groove/multi-driver-balanced-armature-iems-with-groove/
> 
> ...


 

 My Sony Z5 sounded weird for the same reason. Treble was extremely rolled off and it sounded veiled using with the groove. I have both the Groove and Geek Out V2 on hand, and if I were to only keep one, hands down it will be the V2. Sounds noticeably better, more consistent amp and I don't have to worry about low impedance headphones sounding weird on the V2 as compared to the groove.


----------



## zenpunk

I also agree that sadly the Groove doesn't sound very good with multi-drivers/BA. But it is unbelievable with my VE Zen and I am considering that combo as an end game for myself. You can check my profile to see I have tried quite some headphones/iems. I have sold all my full-size headphones, more for practical reasons to be frank, but I have little regrets and I don't feel like I am missing much.


----------



## RedJohn456

zenpunk said:


> I also agree that sadly the Groove doesn't sound very good with multi-drivers/BA. But it is unbelievable with my VE Zen and I am considering that combo as an end game for myself. You can check my profile to see I have tried quite some headphones/iems. I have sold all my full-size headphones, more for practical reasons to be frank, but I have little regrets and I don't feel like I am missing much.


 

 I have the Zen as well (along with the rest of the VE family), I know how you feel   They sound fantastic with the groove, but that is because its really high Z (320 ohms?). 
  
 PS If you think the Zen is good, you're in for a treat in the upcoming weeks 
  
 I wish the groove had a better dac and regular amp option. I am really looking forward to the inevitable groove 2 which should be fantastic with a few tweaks!


----------



## blse59

http://www.apogeedigital.com/knowledgebase/groove/windows-what-is-the-usb-device-streaming-latency-values/
  
 What effect would tweaking the latency settings have on the sound? For the Groove, the software defaults to "safe" or 16 ms.


----------



## tumburu

No effects on the sound itself, but lower latencies would tax the cpu more. If the computer can't handle very low latencies there will be drop-outs in sound.


----------



## studiom

Groove sounds great driving my LCD-XC's - very impressed.  However, my SE 846's sound plain wrong driven via the Groove.  Low end is horrid mids are non existent and top end is weird.  Definitely not designed for multi driver ear phones...


----------



## RedJohn456

studiom said:


> Groove sounds great driving my LCD-XC's - very impressed.  However, my SE 846's sound plain wrong driven via the Groove.  Low end is horrid mids are non existent and top end is weird.  Definitely not designed for multi driver ear phones...


 
  
http://www.apogeedigital.com/knowledgebase/groove/multi-driver-balanced-armature-iems-with-groove/
  
 Groove doesn't play nice with multi BA iems


----------



## emilsoft

I just ordered the Apogee Groove to use with my Focal Spirit Pro headphones. My expectations are quite high this being from Apogee, I was hoping for a giant killer but reading some of the posts here I'm not convinced - there's some mixed feelings. Currently I'm using the IFI nano iDSD, which is OK for the money, hopefully the groove will improve on it.  Maybe one day I will find a portable dac, reasonably priced, that can match my Lavry DA11.


----------



## Jeremy

emilsoft said:


> I just ordered the Apogee Groove to use with my Focal Spirit Pro headphones. My expectations are quite high this being from Apogee, I was hoping for a giant killer but reading some of the posts here I'm not convinced - there's some mixed feelings. Currently I'm using the IFI nano iDSD, which is OK for the money, hopefully the groove will improve on it.  Maybe one day I will find a portable dac, reasonably priced, that can match my Lavry DA11.


 

 I have the Lavry DA11 and love it. I also had the Apogee Grove but returned it. It's really good for a portable DAC/amp combo but does not match the DA11. If you're looking for a giant killer that could replace the Lavry DA11, you should try the Geek Out V2. It is significantly better than the Apogee Groove, but not as pretty, and may even surpass the Lavry DA11 as a DAC. I'm still undecided.


----------



## emilsoft

jeremy said:


> I have the Lavry DA11 and love it. I also had the Apogee Grove but returned it. It's really good for a portable DAC/amp combo but does not match the DA11. If you're looking for a giant killer that could replace the Lavry DA11, you should try the Geek Out V2. It is significantly better than the Apogee Groove, but not as pretty, and may even surpass the Lavry DA11 as a DAC. I'm still undecided.


 
 Thanks for your opinion. The Lavry DA11 in addition to having a reference dac (at it's best via coax in, not usb) has an excellent headphone amplifier which grips and dominates any headphone I tried, so if the Geek out v2 comes close to it then that is an amazing achievement. I will give the Groove a chance, perhaps it's a matter of a good headphone match with what seems it's picky headphone amplifier, and I've spotted Apogee themselves using Focal Spirit Pros when demoing it on some videos on youtube, so who knows. If that doesn't work out maybe I will try the Geek out v2 or Celsus Sound Companion One.


----------



## Anthony Lo

Hi All,
  
I am just got the Apogee Groove. WOW, My big cow buddy HIFIMAN-HE400 full of power after plug it in the tiny Monster !!! I LOVE IT !!! 
  
I am Listening "Muddy Water" now, oh my ... this is fantastic, so clear and loud!!!


----------



## RedJohn456

anthony lo said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I am just got the Apogee Groove. WOW, My big cow buddy HIFIMAN-HE400 full of power after plug it in the tiny Monster !!! I LOVE IT !!!
> 
> I am Listening "Muddy Water" now, oh my ... this is fantastic, so clear and loud!!!


 

 Great choice, the groove is perfect for driving Planars and such! And to top it off, it helps with any treble peaks if there are any! How does it sound?


----------



## Anthony Lo

When I play Emmanuel Pahud - Pavane from Spotify. The flute sound is stunning and clear enough. Will try FLAC format later !


----------



## emilsoft

What HIFI review is out now: http://www.whathifi.com/apogee/groove/review
  
 4 out of 5, I was expecting better...


----------



## sheldaze

Thanks!
  
 One thing that confuses me, with regard to many of the What-HiFi reviews, is their high regard for timing. They gave a bad review to this (well, not a terrible review, but simply not a 5-star) and based much of the point loss on timing. They also gave a bad review in comparison between an Arcam irDAC and a Meridian Director. Now having had both DAC in my system, I agree 100% that the Arcam irDAC is better than the Meridian Director. But I certainly would not use the word timing to describe the difference.
  
 I agree with the rest of the review though. It has plenty of energy, and is quite smooth and easy to listen to for hours. However it does not convey the sense of detail of some other DAC/AMP. To paraphrase, enough detail to be satisfying, but perhaps not as intimate as some of its competitors.
  
 I personally really like what it does for a few of my troublesome headphones. For example, it made a Sony MDR-V6 truly sing - highs were more detailed than I recall on other DAC/AMP, and the bass was plenty powerful without being boomy, as it can be from the Sony. But it is certainly hit-or-miss depending on the impedance of the headphones.


----------



## emilsoft

As long as I notice a reasonable improvement over my IFI Nano IDSD then I will be satisfied, if it appears to be more of the same then I will sell it... I should be receiving it next week, fingers crossed.


----------



## ThomasHK

adg4 said:


> I just ordered the HD650 + Groove combo from Adorama and plan to use the Groove with my existing HD650's and will sell the new pair of headphones. However, the second pair of headphones I'd like to use with the Groove are Shure SE535's. In anticipation of the Groove, I was doing some searching and discovered this article on the Apogee website:
> 
> http://www.apogeedigital.com/knowledgebase/groove/multi-driver-balanced-armature-iems-with-groove/
> 
> ...


 
  
 The Apogee Groove has a current drive, not voltage drive amp. Any headphone with strong impedance fluctuations will have their perceived frequency response altered. Multi-BA IEMs typically have quite strong impedance flux across the spectrum. Similarly though, all headphones have impedance peaks at their main resonances. If you have a headphone with a strong, undamped impedance peak at the main low frequency resonance, this DAC/AMP will result in a colored response.
  
 EDIT: to make this even more clear, read this http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/musings-headphone-amplifier-output-impedance#7lrqGF6BTp7agHRx.97
  
 And now imagine that the Apogee Groove has very high output impedance. Influence on the frequency response can be +/- 3 dB easily!!


----------



## blse59

emilsoft said:


> What HIFI review is out now: http://www.whathifi.com/apogee/groove/review
> 
> 4 out of 5, I was expecting better...


 

 This review didn't say much. It's almost worthless. It is worthless, actually. Lots of subjective BS. I don't believe a single word the reviewer said.
  
 I'd rather read reviews from knowledgeable and objective engineers like Archimago at archimago.blogspot.com, and the other guy who can't be named who disappeared from the web in 2012.


----------



## emilsoft

I agree, What HIFI reviews are not great, I read them with a pinch of salt. 
  
 On another note, I just got the new Chord Mojo so when the Groove arrives it'll be an interesting comparison..


----------



## xxphonz

I received my AG lastweek and love it! however it does get mighty warm to the point where I'm unplugging it from the USB port on my Win7 machine every evening (I use it at work) in case it spontaneously combusts!
  
 The other thing I've noticed is that it's picky with the USB cable and as yet have only made it work using the short cable that came with the unit...any one else have any luck with another longer cable?


----------



## Saad Abdul Aziz

anyone used this with the hd800 how do they sound compared to other amps/dacs thanks


----------



## TimSchirmer

sheldaze said:


> I was unaware of the deal, combo HD650 and Apogee Groove. They are a good pairing - other amps I have owned simply do not drive these headphones properly:
> 
> 
> AudioQuest DragonFly version 1.2
> ...


 

 The Meridian Explorer didn't even power my Grados sufficiently. It's a shame because the director is a GREAT dac for the money.


----------



## sheldaze

timschirmer said:


> The Meridian Explorer didn't even power my Grados sufficiently. It's a shame because the director is a GREAT dac for the money.


 
 +1
  
 Love their DACs. In fact, thus far I love all the DACs from Great Britain 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 I'm trying to write a larger summary of USB DAC/AMP options, but I think I'm going to sell the 6 flavors I've collected in favor of the Chord Mojo.


----------



## bubuca

Any sound comparison the Oppo Ha-2?


----------



## ptolemy2k6

I like mine alot. In fact, it's much smaller than micro idsd, so when I work on my laptop i use it. I don't have the best source/most hungry headphones, so it's hard for em to tell the difference between the two
  
 they are different beasts, but for my use on the go, both work well.
  
 I also was surprised that the only way to get software is to register, but not a huge deal


----------



## Apogee Don

Hi everyone! My name's Don, and I'm the US/Canada sales rep for Apogee Electronics products. At this point we've taken the Groove to several CanJam events but haven't actually had someone with a presence here on Head-Fi, so we figured it's about time. If anyone has any questions about the Groove (or any of our other products, or our company in general for that matter), I'll do my best to help!
  
 For now I'd like to share some news we just learned ourselves. We've had a lot of people asking if there's any way to use the Groove with portable devices like phones and tablets. The majority of the phones on the market today can't provide the Groove with the amount of power it requires to operate, but the latest Samsung phones (Galaxy S6 / S6 Edge / S6 Edge+) are able to supply the necessary power and are "plug and play" with a simple USB OTG cable.
 http://www.apogeedigital.com/blog/blog-how-to/improve-sound-quality-samsung-galaxy-s6
  
 Looking forward to being part of the Head-Fi community and a big "thank you" those of you who have been enjoying the Groove!


----------



## Anthony Lo

Looking forward can donit in iphone soon! Btw i love Groove ! Handy and powerful.


----------



## USHI

apogee don said:


> Hi everyone! My name's Don, and I'm the US/Canada sales rep for Apogee Electronics products. At this point we've taken the Groove to several CanJam events but haven't actually had someone with a presence here on Head-Fi, so we figured it's about time. If anyone has any questions about the Groove (or any of our other products, or our company in general for that matter), I'll do my best to help!
> 
> For now I'd like to share some news we just learned ourselves. We've had a lot of people asking if there's any way to use the Groove with portable devices like phones and tablets. The majority of the phones on the market today can't provide the Groove with the amount of power it requires to operate, but the latest Samsung phones (Galaxy S6 / S6 Edge / S6 Edge+) are able to supply the necessary power and are "plug and play" with a simple USB OTG cable.
> http://www.apogeedigital.com/blog/blog-how-to/improve-sound-quality-samsung-galaxy-s6
> ...


 
 Why not make a cable that can connect to both the portable devices and a portable battery at the same time for the groove? Or maybe an improved groove with built in battery


----------



## Apogee Don

ushi said:


> Why not make a cable that can connect to both the portable devices and a portable battery at the same time for the groove? Or maybe an improved groove with built in battery


 

 I can say that we are experimenting with some mobile power options, but I can't say for sure that they will end up as retail products. When we designed the Groove we were only intending it to work with the full-spec USB ports on Mac/PC computers for maximum power and fidelity. It just so happens that some of the latest phones and tablets (like the Samsung Galaxy S6 and Microsoft Surface 3) are implementing full-power USB right from their internal batteries. Hopefully that trend continues!


----------



## MarkF786

What do you guys think about using the Groove with low impedance headphones?  I tend to mostly use more portable, low impedance headphones, though I do have a couple pairs that are more high impedance which I occasionally use.  Here's the 'phones I'd be using it with:
  
 Sennheiser Amperior
 Sennheiser HD239
 Shure E4c
 Sennheiser PX-100
 Sennheiser HD580
 AKG K-240 (500 ohm version)
  
 I'm currently driving them with an Apogee One but I'm wondering if the Apogee Groove would provide an improved sound:


----------



## Apogee Don

markf786 said:


> What do you guys think about using the Groove with low impedance headphones?  I tend to mostly use more portable, low impedance headphones, though I do have a couple pairs that are more high impedance which I occasionally use.  Here's the 'phones I'd be using it with:
> 
> Sennheiser Amperior
> Sennheiser HD239
> ...


 

 Low impedance headphones are where the Groove is going to make the biggest difference compared to the Apogee ONE. The ONE/Duet/Quartet headphone amps are optimized to work at their best with higher-impedance studio headphones (250 ohm and up). Not only does the Groove have a better DAC than the ONE, but the main benefit of the "Constant Current Drive" is superior performance with a wide range of headphone impedances. In my personal experience, the low impedance sets are where you really hear the most dramatic improvement in bass response, noise floor, and detail with the Groove.


----------



## mtliu

apogee don said:


> Hi everyone! My name's Don, and I'm the US/Canada sales rep for Apogee Electronics products. At this point we've taken the Groove to several CanJam events but haven't actually had someone with a presence here on Head-Fi, so we figured it's about time. If anyone has any questions about the Groove (or any of our other products, or our company in general for that matter), I'll do my best to help!
> 
> For now I'd like to share some news we just learned ourselves. We've had a lot of people asking if there's any way to use the Groove with portable devices like phones and tablets. The majority of the phones on the market today can't provide the Groove with the amount of power it requires to operate, but the latest Samsung phones (Galaxy S6 / S6 Edge / S6 Edge+) are able to supply the necessary power and are "plug and play" with a simple USB OTG cable.
> http://www.apogeedigital.com/blog/blog-how-to/improve-sound-quality-samsung-galaxy-s6
> ...


 
 It works fine with my Moto X 2014 with a standard OTG cable , but it does suck a lot of power from the phone battery.


----------



## bflat

Question for owners or Apogee,
  
 When I listen to the Groove via a Mac, I am playing files of various sampling rates. Each time the next track with a different sampling rate than the preceding track plays, there is and audible "pop" between the transition of the 2 tracks. Is this normal? I know for my other desktop DACs they come with built in relays to mute the transition. Does Apogee not have such a mute built in?
  
 Thanks


----------



## sheldaze

bflat said:


> Question for owners or Apogee,
> 
> When I listen to the Groove via a Mac, I am playing files of various sampling rates. Each time the next track with a different sampling rate than the preceding track plays, there is and audible "pop" between the transition of the 2 tracks. Is this normal? I know for my other desktop DACs they come with built in relays to mute the transition. Does Apogee not have such a mute built in?
> 
> Thanks


 
 No pop that I recall. I have an Audirvana+ playlist of 5 tracks at these rates:
  

24/48
24/192
16/44.1
24/96
24/88.2
  
 I cannot re-test it until much, much later today (or perhaps tomorrow morning). I'll let you know if I hear any sort of pop sound.


----------



## bflat

sheldaze said:


> No pop that I recall. I have an Audirvana+ playlist of 5 tracks at these rates:
> 
> 
> 24/48
> ...


 

 Thanks! This was very helpful. It seems it only happens to me on Fidelia. On iTunes no problem switching between my ALAC files with different sampling rates.
  
 Update - I tried Audirvana and Bitfect and same issue -  any changes in sampling rate between songs get the pop. When I select "Match Song" for sampling rate is when I get the popping. If I set to a fixed rate, no popping. I also realize my iTunes comment was wrong since iTunes does not switch on the fly.
  
 Would be curious to know if you hear the same or if my unit is defective.


----------



## Apogee Don

bflat said:


> Question for owners or Apogee,
> 
> When I listen to the Groove via a Mac, I am playing files of various sampling rates. Each time the next track with a different sampling rate than the preceding track plays, there is and audible "pop" between the transition of the 2 tracks. Is this normal? I know for my other desktop DACs they come with built in relays to mute the transition. Does Apogee not have such a mute built in?
> 
> Thanks


 
  
 There are actually muting circuits in the Groove, but the muting is more like 90% than 100% for fidelity/quality reasons. So it wouldn't be out of the ordinary for you to hear a light pop when switching sampling rates, but not a big one. If it's doing something really different with one piece of software versus another, that's unusual - send me an email with the details and I can have someone check it out.
  
 EDIT: Whoops, I just saw that you already solved the iTunes thing - it must have been maintaining the sampling rate by doing SRC. So yes, if the sampling rate is actually changing there should be a soft pop as it switches over.


----------



## bflat

apogee don said:


> There are actually muting circuits in the Groove, but the muting is more like 90% than 100% for fidelity/quality reasons. So it wouldn't be out of the ordinary for you to hear a light pop when switching sampling rates, but not a big one. If it's doing something really different with one piece of software versus another, that's unusual - send me an email with the details and I can have someone check it out.
> 
> EDIT: Whoops, I just saw that you already solved the iTunes thing - it must have been maintaining the sampling rate by doing SRC. So yes, if the sampling rate is actually changing there should be a soft pop as it switches over.


 

 ok, yes it is a soft pop like a vinyl record pop. Thanks for confirming that's normal. I'll just fix the sampling rate at max. I'll probably do the same for my desktop DACs because I worry the mechanical relay will where out.


----------



## EinZweiDrei

how do you set the settings for high impedence phones like the k701 and hd600 on windows.
 sounds a bit undriven compared to my other amp.
 oh sure it definitely can pump out lots of volume to ear deafening levels but it doesn't sound as if its alive.
 maybe im not use to it yet so ill have to give it more time.
 is there a setting for higher impedence cans like some amps have?
 this thing is too simple that im starting to think its complicated.
 like how i dislike itunes and prefer to just drag and drop.


----------



## MarkF786

It's funny that Adorama currently has two bundle deals - the Shure SE535 & Apogee Groove for $550 or the Shure SE425 & Apogee Groove for $410 - but Apogee doesn't recommend using the Groove with multi-driver balanced armature in-ear monitors. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
  
 I just bought a pair of SE425's myself, which has lessened my interest in the Groove since I want to get a portable DAC/Amp that could be used with all my headphones.


----------



## studiom

markf786 said:


> It's funny that Adorama currently has two bundle deals - the Shure SE535 & Apogee Groove for $550 or the Shure SE425 & Apogee Groove for $410 - but Apogee doesn't recommend using the Groove with multi-driver balanced armature in-ear monitors.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Well, I think they can expect a bunch of returns... I can say my Shure 846's sound rubbish with the Groove.. it's like there's some crazy eq curve being applied.  When I first got it and tried it with my Shure's I sent Apogee and email asking them if there was some sort of eq going on.. Maybe the 535 or 425 will work better but I wouldn't recommend this with any of the multiple driver shure in ears.
  
 But.. it does work brilliantly with the Audeze LCD X and XC.


----------



## Apogee Don

einzweidrei said:


> how do you set the settings for high impedence phones like the k701 and hd600 on windows.
> sounds a bit undriven compared to my other amp.
> oh sure it definitely can pump out lots of volume to ear deafening levels but it doesn't sound as if its alive.
> maybe im not use to it yet so ill have to give it more time.
> ...


 
 There aren't any special adjustments or settings for high-impedance vs low-impedance headphones. That's one of the main benefits of the current-drive design; it adapts its performance depending on the headphones you plug in so that it works very well with headphones from low-impedance to high-impedance without having to futz with settings or run at a near-zero output impedance. Complicated design for us, simple operation for you. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 If it's putting out lots of level and sounding crisp and clear, then I'm guessing it is working correctly. The sound quality is very much "alive" to my ears, but as with anything, YMMV. Maybe try a few different headphones and see if you prefer it with one versus another.
  


markf786 said:


> It's funny that Adorama currently has two bundle deals - the Shure SE535 & Apogee Groove for $550 or the Shure SE425 & Apogee Groove for $410 - but Apogee doesn't recommend using the Groove with multi-driver balanced armature in-ear monitors.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hmm... yeah, that might be a little questionable. I should probably talk to them about that - thanks for pointing it out. I've never tried a Groove with those models specifically so I'm not sure how well it works in practice (maybe they have?), but like you said, with some models the frequency response can get a little skewed when the current-drive amp tries to compensate for multiple BA drivers and a crossover network. Sounds like that's what was happening with the SE846's that studiom mentioned above.


----------



## bflat

apogee don said:


> Hmm... yeah, that might be a little questionable. I should probably talk to them about that - thanks for pointing it out. I've never tried a Groove with those models specifically so I'm not sure how well it works in practice (maybe they have?), but like you said, with some models the frequency response can get a little skewed when the current-drive amp tries to compensate for multiple BA drivers and a crossover network. Sounds like that's what was happening with the SE846's that studiom mentioned above.


 
 No problems with JH16 Pro IEMs. Pretty damn good combo actually.


----------



## Apogee Don

bflat said:


> No problems with JH16 Pro IEMs. Pretty damn good combo actually.


 

 Yeah, then that's the tricky thing - with certain models it works really well! It depends on the design of the particular headphone, but since we (sadly) don't have access to all of the IEMs in the world, we decided to take the safe route and just say that we don't recommend that style because it's hard for us to predict how they will interact with the circuit. Good to know that it works well with the JH16!


----------



## blse59

For Windows users, I noticed an updated driver on the website. It's version 3.2.0 (previous one was 3.0.0).


----------



## wxyz31415

I currently have the Apogee One, and it is _amazing _as a headphone dac/amp.  I use it with a pair of Sennheiser HD-600 and listen mostly to chamber music and jazz.  Apologies if this has been addressed before, but does the Groove improve on the One enough to justify buying it?
  
 Also, for travel (airplane) purposes, what closed-back headphones work best (and sound similar to the HD-600) with the One/Groove?  I have the Denon D600, but it sounds a bit too lean/thin compared with the HD-600 to my ears. The HD-600 has a lush, satisfying sound, and at the same time, with the One, there is also a lot of detail that I can hear as well. Thanks!!


----------



## sheldaze

wxyz31415 said:


> I currently have the Apogee One, and it is _amazing _as a headphone dac/amp.  I use it with a pair of Sennheiser HD-600 and listen mostly to chamber music and jazz.  Apologies if this has been addressed before, but does the Groove improve on the One enough to justify buying it?
> 
> Also, for travel (airplane) purposes, what closed-back headphones work best (and sound similar to the HD-600) with the One/Groove?  I have the Denon D600, but it sounds a bit too lean/thin compared with the HD-600 to my ears. The HD-600 has a lush, satisfying sound, and at the same time, with the One, there is also a lot of detail that I can hear as well. Thanks!!


 
 Welcome to Head-Fi!
  
 Unfortunately I'm unfamiliar with the Apogee One.
  
 Per your second question, I think there are many, many person's who love the sound of the HD600/650 and are seeking an equivalent in a closed-form. I too am one of those persons. You'll find a lot of crazy opinions mixed with several reasonable options in some other threads:
  
http://www.head-fi.org/t/672743/comparisons-26-of-the-top-closed-portable-headphones-around
http://www.head-fi.org/t/770989/why-is-the-closed-back-market-so-bad
  
 The two links above are by no means encompassing - just some things I came across in my personal search. Good luck!


----------



## studiom

Hi,
  
 I I have the One iOS and the Groove is a better DAC/Heaphone amp.  It's a definite step up from the One.  Only issue is you can't power it from an iPhone or iPad.
  
 cheers


----------



## sheldaze

bflat said:


> ok, yes it is a soft pop like a vinyl record pop. Thanks for confirming that's normal. I'll just fix the sampling rate at max. I'll probably do the same for my desktop DACs because I worry the mechanical relay will where out.


 
 Listening to many different headphone (for a different exercise) and using the Apogee Groove as a baseline, I do finally hear the sound you're describing - only for my headphone with lower impedance around 30 ohms. For my headphone at 300 ohms, I did not notice.
  
 Seems to me you could trust Apogee. They know what they're doing for electronics, and would not allow any current flow that could damage drivers. Of course, if the sound is simply bothersome


----------



## MarkF786

I've been using an Apogee One for many years and just purchased a Groove, which arrived today.  I must admit I was a little skeptical that there would be a big difference in sound between the two, but I immediately heard the difference.  I first compared the two with Sennheiser HD580s, very similar to the HD600s, and also with HD558s.  The Groove drove the headphones with much more authority; it could go louder, but at the same volume it seemed to respond better to transients.  More importantly, I could hear much more detail in the music, which I first noticed in the definition within the bass, but then also in the midrange and treble where I could hear low-volume instruments or sounds that were otherwise imperceptible with the One.  I only listened to it for about 45 minutes, but I immediately knew it was worth the upgrade.
  
 BTW, another set of headphones I tried it with were Shure SE425s, which has dual balanced armature drivers.  I couldn't hear any imbalance in the frequency response, as possibly can happen with some BA IEMs and the Groove, and again I could hear much more detail apparent in the music using the Groove vs the One (or vs the built in Macbook Pro headphone out, which surprisingly sounds about as good as the One for low impedance headphones).
  
 Another minor thing worth noting is how small the Groove is; though I've seen hundreds of pictures, I was surprised by how actually small it is, not much bigger than a pack of gum.  Also, it's very solidly built, with an aluminum shell.
  
 I'm looking forward to trying it later with some other headphones I have.


----------



## Alec246

No BlackFriday deals on this one ;( I was looking forward to buying mine. It will have to wait until 2016.


----------



## Smokhee

Hi Apogee Don- I have a Samsung Note Edge...any idea if it can power the Groove?  If so, I am definitely in for buying one!  Thanks in advance.


----------



## MarkF786

alec246 said:


> No BlackFriday deals on this one ;( I was looking forward to buying mine. It will have to wait until 2016.


 

 Adorama has the Groove on sale for $234.99 (20% off).


----------



## Alec246

markf786 said:


> Adorama has the Groove on sale for $234.99 (20% off).




Not showing for me here. Maybe it sold out


----------



## MarkF786

It's still on sale: 

http://www.adorama.com/AEGROOVE.html?emailprice=t&hotlink=t&svfor=5m&utm_medium=Affiliate&utm_source=rflaid62905&cvosrc=affiliate.62905


----------



## Apogee Don

smokhee said:


> Hi Apogee Don- I have a Samsung Note Edge...any idea if it can power the Groove?  If so, I am definitely in for buying one!  Thanks in advance.


 

 Sorry, we don't have one of those to test it on! I'll let you know if we're able to test it in the future, though.


----------



## Alec246

markf786 said:


> It's still on sale:
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.adorama.com/AEGROOVE.html?emailprice=t&hotlink=t&svfor=5m&utm_medium=Affiliate&utm_source=rflaid62905&cvosrc=affiliate.62905



 


Thank you! But the HD600 deal at B&H got me. But the Apogee Groove is gonna be my next upgrade for sure! The HD600 deserves some proper Amp and DAC.


----------



## robb.

i've been thinking about upgrading to this from my nuforce uDAC-2, but between the comments on multi-BA performance and the what hi-fi review i'm a little less decided. my primary listening is with AKG K3003i, but i also use (in order of time) grado SR60, AKG IP2, AKG K272HD, and sony MDR-7506. the K3003i have two BA drivers for mids and highs and a dynamic bass driver and are very low impedance at 8Ohms. none are particularly high impedance.
  
 first, has anyone done any listening comparisons between the groove and the uDAC? what about the TEAC HA-P50 that what hi-fi seems to prefer?


----------



## EinZweiDrei

after some time with the apogee groove i've noticed that it has trouble with the AKG K7 series or Q701 headphones.
 the amp doesn't drive them well at all. the akg x7 series were always weird when it comes to amping.
 on the sennheiser hd650 and hd600 is isn't bad. hd650 and hd600 seem more reliant on the DAC than amp.


----------



## blse59

I'm using these with the Sony MDR-V6. What can I say? The sound is sublime. Crystal clear and eargasm inducing.


----------



## parnold

So, 

 I got one of these along with the HD650 bundle, and was planning on selling them (have an O2/ODAC on the way), but then got the itch to test it out while waiting for my O2/ODAC. After reading about it on innerfidelity and hearing about their engineering feat of dealing with constant-current & variable headphone impedance spikes such as those presented in HD800 & HD650, as pointed out by Tyll, and a post from an Apogee employee re: using HD800's as reference headphones while designing the groove, I had to try it out. 
  
 My brief review:
  
_Holy ****. _
  
*Build quality: *
 Extremely sturdy, feels solid and has a nice metal finish. Sticks to my desk wonderfully with the rubber pads underneath. This thing is perfect for traveling. 
  

*Sound Quality:*

*On a T20RP DBV #3:*
 Totally came alive. Not even funny the difference between non-amp (macbook-pro) and this. Lows - subbass - mids - highs, everything. It's a dead black source. It honestly feels like I haven't listened to my headphones before. Plenty of headroom, don't go over 50%
  
*On a Sennheiser HD650: *
 Fantastic, everywhere, low -> highs. 
  
 I can't wait to compare with my O2/ODAC revB


----------



## sheldaze

blse59 said:


> I'm using these with the Sony MDR-V6. What can I say? The sound is sublime. Crystal clear and eargasm inducing.


 
 I really liked this pairing too!
 Made it hard to me to give back the MDR-V6, which I bought for my Dad


----------



## sheldaze

parnold said:


> So,
> 
> I got one of these along with the HD650 bundle, and was planning on selling them (have an O2/ODAC on the way), but then got the itch to test it out while waiting for my O2/ODAC. After reading about it on innerfidelity and hearing about their engineering feat of dealing with constant-current & variable headphone impedance spikes such as those presented in HD800 & HD650, as pointed out by Tyll, and a post from an Apogee employee re: using HD800's as reference headphones while designing the groove, I had to try it out.
> 
> ...


 
 I think your O2/ODAC revB will be better in some ways, but I still find myself coming back to this simple setup. It is exactly as you described it, wonderful.
  
 BTW, I am using the O2/ODAC revB a little loosely, in that I'm actually comparing using JDS Labs The Element. It is indeed an ODAC revB, but a slightly different amplifier architecture. But I still like the Groove when I plug back into it.


----------



## _js_

I just ordered a Groove today and will recieve it tomorrow evening if all goes as planned.

I used to own a JDS C5D which has a battery and worked with my iPhone but I found it to just be too much of a pain. If I'm portable I want to be really portable and my ER-4S's and HD595's sounded plenty good enough out of the iPhone hpo. So I sold it.

But now I think I'm going to step up to the HD700's or similar at some point and wanted a convenient amp / dac for harder to drive cans and the Groove is really appealing because of how small it is. It looks to me like I would notice very little difference (ergonomically) between headphones straight out of my rMBP vs plugged into groove. The Groove doesn't seem like it would need its own table surface but could just hang or rest on the chair, etc.

And I'm very excited about the current controlled drive which has a number of advantages.

If anyone has paired the groove with the HD700's I'd love to hear your impressions!


----------



## GokceYLD

Hi,
  
 this is my first post to this forum and english is not my mother language..
  
 I received my groove previous day and I wanted to share my experience. 
  
 I have the HD650 and prior to Groove I had the dragonfly 1.2 ( still have ) which I felt it did not have enough power to drive the Sennheiser's. I usually had to turn the volume to maximum on some tracks for satisfactory levels.. I was also not satisfied with the low end punch and felt phones had much more potential then what this dac was able to drive. 
  
 I mainly listen to Spotify and Tidal.. and sometimes hi-res tracks I buy from hdtracks through VOX player in Mac. 
  
 So I was looking again at the portable and USB powered DACs with more power and better sound quality than the Dragonfly since I take my laptop with me around.. Groove caught my attention with better ESS chip and constant current drive feature which supposed to drive my Senn's better than Daragonfly. they also recommend the Senn's in their website so I was also carious if the sound signature would make the hd650's more live since they are on the warm side. Also in Turkey the company had a distributor so I would not have to deal with ordering online and pay plus VAT at the customs for other brands not available in Turkey..
  
 So after 2 days of constant listening sessions evenings, I feel like there are no enormous differences compared to dragonfly and even my macbook pro retina's output. Maybe I dont have an audiophile sensitive ears but let me share my experiences and I would like to have other's comments as well..
  
 Groove does have a bit more power than the Dragonfly.. Where as I sometimes need to turn the volume to max on the Dragonfly, the Groove starts to become loud after mid point.. I never needed to go full volume. The sub base also seems to be more evident compared to dragonfly if I listen carefully.  
  
 Groove and Dragonfly sound signatures do seem a bit different as well. I can not go in details to the frequency spectrum since I am not that experienced but as far as I can detect, groove has a "bit" more detail in representation then the Dragonfly and a bit more analytical perhaps.. I feel like Dragonfly is more "airy", more distance to instruments, more laid back.. like you sitting a bit further from the sound stage.. I can not decide which I prefer more. Some tracks I like dragonfly more.. Specially on Spotify.. I guess this airy sound makes dragonfly more smooth with compressed music and rock / pop genres.. But with hi-res music, groove's detail and more power is more satisfying to listen to. But again, I dont hear details with the groove that are not detectable on the dragonfly as some others tell in reviews. Just it is bit more clear, better separated. 
  
 However, the surprising thing for me was these differences is very small and needs very focused and careful listening to detect.. Even compared to my laptops output ! prior to my purchases I searched for forums for all the reviews I could find and I have seen people expressing enormous differences Groove to Dragonfly let alone the computer output.. Phrases like "amazing", "miracle" etc.. So my expectations from this devices were high when purchasing.. I was expecting them to change my listening pleasure to another level every time going from mac output to Dragonfly and then to Groove. Maybe I dont have the ears to hear this much differences but in my experience there is no "amazing" difference with both this dac's compared to my laptops output. They did not transform my laptops output to "another level" my Senn's deserve.. So I question if 500 usd in total I paid for both DAC's is logic or not for the minor differences I get in return..    
  
 I am afraid of spending more for USB powered alternatives. Maybe I should not expect much more from USB powered DAC/AMP's and step up to something like Schiit stacks or vs.. 
  
 I would like to hear others comments as well..


----------



## pete321

I also have the HD650 and groove combo, at first I was very impressed but not so much anymore. It's just ok.
  
 Needs more power for some songs, even the max won't cut it, has nice detail and separation but the sound stage is not wide enough.
  
 Overall I'm not complaining, it's my first DAC and good quality headphones, but I think the geekoutV2 and HD800 will be a dream setup. Maybe one day.


----------



## sheldaze

gokceyld said:


> Hi,
> 
> this is my first post to this forum and english is not my mother language..
> 
> ...


 
 Welcome to Head-Fi! Sorry for your wallet.
  
 I am sure you will hear this phrase from many people - sorry for your wallet. From your experience, upgrading from one device to the next, I think you have already begun to understand why people say this. I too had started with an AudioQuest DragonFly 1.2 - not too expensive. Consider simply two sets of products from Schiit, both which I currently own:
  

Schiit Fulla costs $79
Schiit Ragnarok and Yggdrasil combined cost $4000
  
 Does having the Schiit stack costing $4000 suddenly mean the Schiit Fulla sounds wrong? This will never be true. There will be more quality experience from the stack, but it will not be suddenly the best sound. This is a question you must ask yourself. And you must be truthful with yourself. If you are not happy with the new sound, try to return it. Other than a few caveats, such as making sure your system is setup correctly, there will not be much upgrade to sound beyond a certain point. The AudioQuest DragonFly 1.2 is a really good, quality starting point.
  
 I do recommend the Schiit stacks, such as:
  

Magni 2 Uber and Modi 2 Uber (combined cost around $300)
Lyr 2 and Bifrost (combined cost around $850)
Mjolnir 2 and Gungnir Multibit (combined cost around $2100)
  
 I actually use a Cavalli Audio Liquid Carbon and Gungnir Multibit (combined cost around $1850), and find I need no better sound than this. But I had to try each level for my own ears, to be sure.
  
 And as you try these, also try to remember, or keep around, your original sound - the DragonFly. If you are happy with the new sound, great! Otherwise, perhaps the DragonFly is plenty of sound for you. And then you are actually quite lucky


----------



## mtliu

gokceyld said:


> Hi,
> 
> this is my first post to this forum and english is not my mother language..
> 
> ...


 
 My upgrade to the Apogee came from a Fiio E07K+E09K dock combo. The Apogee costs a little bit more than the Fiio combo and the Apogee only sounds a little but better. This was my first impression, but over time, the subtle difference is not so subtle since the Fiio is now in my office driving some BOSE speakers and I use the Apogee almost all other times. 

 The differences are actually only apparent when I critically listen - concentrating only on the music and nothing else - which is not how I listen to music.

 The Fiios have loads more features and are more flexible than the Apogee - but the size of the Apogee is wonderful. But there are features of the Fiios that I miss on the Apogee sometimes: ability to use as an amp alone and tone controls (for less than ideal source material).

 The Apogee is priced right around. It sounds slightly better than a DAC that costs $100 less - I have quite a few in the lower price range besides the E07K. I can't comment on how the Apogee compares to a more expensive DAC.


----------



## mtliu

pete321 said:


> I also have the HD650 and groove combo, at first I was very impressed but not so much anymore. It's just ok.
> 
> Needs more power for some songs, even the max won't cut it, has nice detail and separation but the sound stage is not wide enough.
> 
> Overall I'm not complaining, it's my first DAC and good quality headphones, but I think the geekoutV2 and HD800 will be a dream setup. Maybe one day.


 
 It's a great first DAC. For me, it was a 6th DAC - and it's great for that.


----------



## _js_

OK.  Been auditioning the Apogee Groove for an hour or so now, and the first thing I have to say--which I already knew--is that the headphone out on the new 15" Retina MacBook Pro is really outstanding, given what it is!
  
 I've been switching back and forth between the groove and the rMBP hpo like crazy, trying to pinpoint the differences (if any).  And there definitely are differences, but they aren't glaring, and the rMBP fares pretty well, really, but, yes, the Groove is better to my ears, especially in the bass.  They definitely improve the bass in both my Sony MDR-7506's and my Senn HD595's.  At first I was thinking that the Groove was actually worse because I felt like the treble was better straight out of the rMBP, but as I tried to zero-in on exactly what was happening, I realized that what was really happening was that the bass was getting extended and tightened.  This was with the Senn's.  With the Sony's, it was obviously better sound out of the Groove.  Out of the Groove, the 7506's have less of the boomy-ness that occasionally bothers me.  Or maybe they have none.  I haven't listened for long enough to be sure.  But, they are better out of the Groove.  Not dramatically better.  But better.
  
 The volume control buttons on the unit and the volume control buttons on the Mac keyboard are both controlling the exact same volume.  It's not the case where there's the volume going into the DAC/Amp, and then there's the volume out of the unit itself.  This is the way it is with my bluetooth Jambox speaker or with the JDS C5D.  In both those cases, you want the digital volume on the iPhone (for instance) to be maxed out, and to control the volume via the Jambox or C5D.  I mean you _can_ lower the volume via the iPhone, and a little of that is OK.  But too much and what you're doing is providing a cut-down digital input which then needs to be over-amplified at the analog stage, and this can only hurt the sound quality.
  
 None of those issues here.  There's only the one volume.  And, in case some people reading don't know this trick, if you hold down the SHIFT and OPTION keys while you adjust the volume up or down, it goes in quarter steps, instead of the full steps, which for me are just too large a jump.  Pushing the buttons on the unit are exactly the same as using this shift-option trick.  It raises or lowers the volume in quarter steps.
  
 I find the buttons to be easy to use, but I am holding the unit in my hand while pushing them.  They are a little bit on the stiff side if you are pushing down on them while the unit is resting on a table or on your laptop.
  
 I also quite like the green/red LED's on the front, but I can see where others might find this annoying.  The red light doesn't indicate clipping, but instead 0 dBFS (zero dB Full Scale), and many recording are pushed up to the absolute loudest, and made loud by many other means as well.  And all bits turned on in a digital recording is the absolute loudest.  This doesn't mean clipping.  One bit of loudness more--that would be clipping.  But as long as the loudest peaks only hit the digital max, then, it's all good.  Except, it's still not a good idea.  Personally, I think there should still be just a little bit of room.  And, in fact, any track that was "Mastered for iTunes" is required to have at least a tenth of a dB room below 0 dBFS.
  
 And, for example, Taylor Swift's 1989 is mastered for iTunes, and I switched over to it while writing the above paragraph, and so far, I have seen no red led hold light.  So, I think I'm right about this.  And, I think it's also no problem if the red LED does light up.  It's pretty common for recordings to be pushed up to 0 dBFS during the mastering process.
  
 Anyway, the Groove also gets nice and toasty warm to the touch but not hot--or not so far for me.
  
 The main headline for me, though, is that this thing is POWERFUL.  I don't know what was happening to others who commented earlier that they need to raise the volume near to max, but I suspect that the digital level into the Groove was low, or the recording was quite low, or something along those lines.  Because I can't even raise this thing to one quarter volume on the 595's or 7506's.  And yes, I know the HD600's are a lot harder to drive, but, they're not THAT hard to drive!  And, by the specs, the Groove will put 225mW into 30 ohms and 40mW into 600 ohms.  That's 4.899 volts into 600 ohms and 2.598 volts into 30 ohms, so it will probably put 4 volts or so into 300 ohms, which is the impedance of the HD600's at 1kHZ.  At 1 volt, the SPL is freaking 102 dB.  Quadrupling the voltage means increasing the power by 16 times, which is an SPL of 118 dB.  So, if the input to the Groove really were close to full scale, you're talking about hearing damage.  So, color me skeptical that anyone couldn't reach sufficient volume with a properly configured groove + HD600 combo.  Either the unit was defective, or the source material wasn't full scale (or some Windows double volume issue type deal).  OR, possibly, if the USB port wasn't able to deliver the full 500mA of output current at 5V, that might cause the Groove to not function properly.
  
 I don't know.  Maybe I'm totally wrong here, but during development of the Groove, Apogee employees specifically tested it with the HD600, HD800, etc.
  
 Anyway, I'm impressed.  Solid piece of kit, and will enable me to step up to pretty much whatever can I want.  Plus, I'm it seems like this can also improve easy to drive headphones.  I may re-acquire some Grado RS-2e's and see how they sound out of the Groove!
  
 Just my first impressions, for what they're worth.  Will need to spend a lot more time to see how the Groove is with extended listening.


----------



## blse59

Yeah, on Windows and listening to pop/rock recordings, my volume is at 3% max. For classical and jazz I might go to 5-7%. So these get plenty loud.
  
 There is a huge improvement with the Groove over my laptop. But then again, I'm using a Windows laptop which means crappy onboard audio. Unlike with Apple. I'm not sure if I owned a fairly recent Apple laptop if I would have sprung for an external amp/dac. Most audio hardware on Apple products are excellent quality. I'm happy with the sound coming out of my 2011 era iPad 2. But at least with the Groove you know you're getting consistent sound of the highest quality.


----------



## _js_

Spent another perfectly delightful hour or two with my new Apogee Groove, and I'm really liking it. As I suspected, it's very convenient and takes almost no extra space. In fact it's more convenient than listening straight out of my laptop because I can more easily adjust the volume while I'm listening. And it's literally plug and play on OS X.

My previous Mac was a pre- unibody Macbook Pro and the hpo on that was just awful. Which is why I bought my Apogee Duet, actually. Still have it, still use it with a thunderbolt to FW adaptor. But it's way less convenient and not as powerful as the Groove. And it has 30 freaking ohms of output impedance! So the Senn 595's sound poor out of it and the Sony 7506's sound ok but not great. My Grado's sounded awesome out of it, but the FR changes there were obviously to my liking in that case.

With the Groove's current regulated drive, output impedance is a complete non-issue and it will also reduce ringing and overshoot to the extent that it is able.

And it's so small it will fit right in one of the pockets in my laptop case.

But it is not, however, light. It's a pretty dense and hefty piece of equipment, which lends it a solid and quality feel.

It's a keeper!


----------



## GokceYLD

_js_ said:


> I've been switching back and forth between the groove and the rMBP hpo like crazy, trying to pinpoint the differences (if any).  And there definitely are differences, but they aren't glaring, and the rMBP fares pretty well, really, but, yes, the Groove is better to my ears, especially in the bass.


 
  
 This is just what I exactly observed as well..


----------



## _js_

Two quick things:

1. I should have said above that _sonically_ the output impedance of the Groove is a complete non-issue. Since it's current controlled it will adjust the output voltage accordingly to compensate for the voltage drop across the output impedance. You do still lose power to the output impedance, though.

2. The Groove is more powerful than the JDS Labs C5D, which is really awesome. The C5D will put 4.186 and 1.182 volts into 600 and 32 ohms respectively. Compare that to the specs I posted above and you can see that the Groove is more than twice as powerful when driving 32 ohm cans and 20 percent more powerful into 600 ohm cans.

And it's quite a bit smaller and more convenient than the C5D. So, for those using a laptop as their music library / file-stoarge device, the Groove has significant advantages.

On the other hand, it has no battery and so is really not suited to a portable rig, and I think it's crazy to try to make it serve in this capacity! 500 mA at 5V is 2.5 WATTS of power draw. Even the most impressive smart phone batteries can't keep that up for long!


----------



## mtliu

blse59 said:


> Yeah, on Windows and listening to pop/rock recordings, my volume is at 3% max. For classical and jazz I might go to 5-7%. So these get plenty loud.
> 
> There is a huge improvement with the Groove over my laptop. But then again, I'm using a Windows laptop which means crappy onboard audio. Unlike with Apple. I'm not sure if I owned a fairly recent Apple laptop if I would have sprung for an external amp/dac. Most audio hardware on Apple products are excellent quality. I'm happy with the sound coming out of my 2011 era iPad 2. But at least with the Groove you know you're getting consistent sound of the highest quality.


 
 The groove is definately WAY loud and clear. It is the first DAC that will overload the input of my DENON receiver. How do I know this? Because there is an input overload LED. I've never seen it blink before - I've hooked line out from the my other Amp/DACs (Fiio E17K and Fiio E09K) and ave not had this happen. With everything wide open on my Windows laptop, generally I don't turn the Groove over 15/100. For use as a DAC feeding the PA system at the club, I can't turn the Groove above 55/100 without overloading the receiver (feeds aux speakers), which is consumer level. The PA, however, is professional line level.


----------



## _js_

mtliu said:


> blse59 said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, on Windows and listening to pop/rock recordings, my volume is at 3% max. For classical and jazz I might go to 5-7%. So these get plenty loud.
> ...




Inputs on something like a stereo receiver or PA system have very high impedance--typically 10kOhms--and so require very little driving _power_, and thus all that matters is the voltage in. Professional line level is 2V and consumer gear is looking for 1V. Since the Groove can put almost 5V into 600 ohms it will put just about 5V into 10k ohms. So it's providing about double what pro gear is looking for and about five times what consumer gear is looking for.

However, it's very easy to drive a line level input because it draws almost no current and thus takes almost no power. As long as you have the voltage it's looking for, all is well. And it's a purely resistive or non-reactive load.

Speakers and headphones on the other hand are reactive loads and have an impedance that varies with frequency and are much more challenging to drive.


----------



## _js_

My Apogee Groove went intermittent a couple times while I was listening today, and I wasn't moving and the cable and headphones were all securely and fully plugged in. Seems like what happened to another person in this thread, if I remember correctly!

In addition, I had been planning on giving the Senn HD700 a try, but have decided instead to give the Grado RS2e's another go. So I am returning my Apogee Groove for a refund, and that will get me more than halfway towards RS2e's which, unlike the HD700's, really don't need an amp.

Thus ends my Groove experience. But I'd still highly recommend it to anyone, and if I ever need a USB amp/dac for my laptop, that's definitely what I will buy again! And maybe even one of the special silver ones if they're still available at that point.


----------



## mtliu

_js_ said:


> My Apogee Groove went intermittent a couple times while I was listening today, and I wasn't moving and the cable and headphones were all securely and fully plugged in. Seems like what happened to another person in this thread, if I remember correctly!
> 
> In addition, I had been planning on giving the Senn HD700 a try, but have decided instead to give the Grado RS2e's another go. So I am returning my Apogee Groove for a refund, and that will get me more than halfway towards RS2e's which, unlike the HD700's, really don't need an amp.
> 
> Thus ends my Groove experience. But I'd still highly recommend it to anyone, and if I ever need a USB amp/dac for my laptop, that's definitely what I will buy again! And maybe even one of the special silver ones if they're still available at that point.


 
 That's too bad. I've had similar problems, but I determined it was all due to the cable. I have so many devices that use the micro-USB that I go through cables like crazy. It sounds like yours wasn't due to a cable though.


----------



## GokceYLD

_js_ said:


> My Apogee Groove went intermittent a couple times while I was listening today, and I wasn't moving and the cable and headphones were all securely and fully plugged in. Seems like what happened to another person in this thread, if I remember correctly!
> 
> In addition, I had been planning on giving the Senn HD700 a try, but have decided instead to give the Grado RS2e's another go. So I am returning my Apogee Groove for a refund, and that will get me more than halfway towards RS2e's which, unlike the HD700's, really don't need an amp.
> 
> Thus ends my Groove experience. But I'd still highly recommend it to anyone, and if I ever need a USB amp/dac for my laptop, that's definitely what I will buy again! And maybe even one of the special silver ones if they're still available at that point.


 
  
 Sorry to hear this. Yesterday I experienced similar thing while I was listening to Spotify. But I assumed maybe it was an internet connection or Spotify cache related thing and did not pay attention to it. Only happened once. Hope it is not Groove related and doesn't repeat since the more I use it the more I start to enjoy the Groove over dragonfly.


----------



## Smokhee

Good news for Samsung Note Edge owners!   Got the groove and an OTG from Amazon.  Nervously plugged the OTG then the groove....and the lights came on!  Works like a charm!  The great thing about the Note is that you can buy batteries for less than 10 dollars if you wanted a long session with the Apogee.  It was truly plug and play, didn't have to do anything...Spotify worked like a charm, and the sound was AWESOME.  
  
 BTW I have been reading reports of the rMBP output being nearly the equal of the Groove...with a Senn 650!!  My rMBP (15 inch late 2013) can barely drive my 650s.  The sound out of my Groove is much better, not even close.  I also have had experience with the Headstage arrow + USB DAC, and when my USB DAC cable (from Headstage) broke, I hooked up a very well reviewed amplifier (Cayin C5) to the headphone output of the rMBP.  I can say without a doubt that the Groove sounds the best of them all.  I guess I would describe the sound as "effortless" and "full"...just fantastic in my opinion.  
  
 So far I am pretty happy with the Groove as it is VERY portable, you don't have to worry about the amp being charged, or how many cycles of charging/uncharging you were putting your amp through, carrying an extra USB/DAC, etc.  The power draw is significant on the phone, so it is not a good solution for long sessions unless you have a plan for battery power.  Thanks for the heads up about this product and I hope I have provided a bit of info.  I can say that this is the best I have ever heard out of my Sennheiser HD650s.  I will test on some other headphones too and report back.  
  
 As with any product there are advantages/disadvantages depending on what you are looking for...for me, this tiny thing is exactly what I needed since I usually listen through my Macbook and don't need to have a powered amplifier.  I am undecided on the lights so far...


----------



## Smokhee

Update:  hooked up my Shure SRH940s to the Groove as well as directly to the rMBP (late 2013).  The SRH940 has relatively low impedance, and is made for monitoring in music studios.  It is very accurate but not the best for long term listening.  There was a clear difference with the Groove, especially in bass.  Much better separation.  Not surprised by this, but given that some people reported only small differences between the Groove and the Mac outputs, thought I would add another voice here.  
  
 Also hooked up my Shure SE535 in-ear phones as the Groove is not really designed for armature drivers.  I thought the sound was cleaner through the Groove rather than the headphone out of the macbook.  Any input on this from our Apogee rep?  Thanks!


----------



## TimSchirmer

Let me know what you think of the Mojo. I'm currently using a Grace M901 and am loving it despite the fact it's probably quote dated. I wasn't that impressed with the Hugo for the money, but I would really like to see if they have a good bang for your buck with the Mojo. Otherwise I'd probably just hold off and get the M903 when I save more $.


----------



## Smokhee

Well, after listening for a while I decided to return my Groove.  It is a great dac/amp for my HD650 but I like using my IEM's a lot, especially on the go...so I decided that I need something a bit more versatile.  And the phone battery draw was just too much to deal with.  So I decided to go for a Chord Mojo....this forum is dangerous for the wallet!


----------



## richsto

Anyone tried the groove out with HiFIMan HE-400? Am satisfied with my Dragonfly for the most part but wondering how ithe Groove drives them.....

Thanks.


----------



## Sorpanino

distant silent what???


----------



## Sorpanino

Wow navigating this tthread is hard, so many posts! haha


----------



## Apogee Don

Stereophile just posted their review for the Groove and it's one of the most comprehensive we've seen anywhere - worth reading if you have any remaining questions about the product!
Apogee Electronics Groove D/A headphone amplifier


----------



## MMXV

*Apogee Groove | HifiMan Edition X | Tidal *

Magnificent!


----------



## blse59

My setup is not as fancy but still extremely satisfied.


----------



## sheldaze

blse59 said:


> My setup is not as fancy but still extremely satisfied.


 
 ^^^This was one of the BEST pairings I ever heard!
  
 I brought it over to my brother, shoved it in his hands. He put it on his head, and I pressed play. He was amazed, and said in a "Finding Nemo" way, "Mine?" The Groove brings out things in the Sony that I did not know were there!


----------



## blse59

sheldaze said:


> ^^^This was one of the BEST pairings I ever heard!
> 
> I brought it over to my brother, shoved it in his hands. He put it on his head, and I pressed play. He was amazed, and said in a "Finding Nemo" way, "Mine?" The Groove brings out things in the Sony that I did not know were there!


 
  
 Great pairing. Rich, bold, and crystal clear are how I would describe it so far.


----------



## mtliu

I just discovered something unusual about the Groove. If I power up my Windows 10 computer with the Groove already connected vs connecting the Groove with the USB after it has powered up, the output level is much different. In the latter case, the PC powers up with the internal sound card, then switches over to the Groove - and the Groove volume is much louder than if I powered up the PC with the Groove already connected. The volume is so loud, that it is able to clip the line in of consumer grade equipment. In order to prevent clipping, I need to turn the level down to about 50/100. 

 However, powering up with the Groove already connected, and the volume is more in line with the default level of the internal sound card - and both can be run at 100/100 volume level without any clipping issues. I only know this because I have an input clip indicator on one of my amps - as well as line-level meters on a compressor which processes the signal. I was wondering why the sound was so compressed when I switched over to the Groove - but on days when I powered up with the Groove - no compression and cleaner sound (due to no compression).

 it just seems strange to me that the output level would be so different depending on if the PC was powered up with the Groove or if the Groove was attached after power up. Weird, but now that I know this, I will always power up with the Groove attached.

 The Groove is still my favorite DAC and it's been months since I've looked around for others. I use it primarily as a sound card to feed the sound system at a night club for karaoke. I'm still impressed with the distinctness of all the instruments - the sparkly treble - and clear bass. Granted, most of the patrons can't tell the difference. I'm also not taking full advantage of the current drive feature of the Groove since a line-in load is not as challenging as actual coils in cans. Driving my cans at the club is actually a Fiio E09K - without a docked E17K. And this is primarily so I can have a huge volume knob within a foot of the computer, rather than having to reach behind me and above my head to use the dedicated rack-mount headphone amp.


----------



## MMXV

LCD-X • Apogee • TidalHIFI 

Excellent Combo


----------



## Roy2001

Ordered one, hope it drives HD600 well.


----------



## MMXV

roy2001 said:


> Ordered one, hope it drives HD600 well.




Drives the HD 650 so there shouldn't be much difference. 

Headphones I've paired it with so far

- LCD 3
- LCD X
- Hifiman Edition X
- Sennheiser HD 650 
- NAD VISO HP 50
- OPPO PM-3 

All paired just fine.


----------



## blse59

New Windows driver at 3.23 (previous was 3.20). I have no idea what has been changed.


----------



## Roy2001

mmxv said:


> Drives the HD 650 so there shouldn't be much difference.
> 
> Headphones I've paired it with so far
> 
> ...


 
 Got the groove last night, what a surprise! It drives HD-600 effortlessly and sounds so good! HD-598 is also singing. I am surprised it is so powerful with just USB2.0 and no battery or extra power supply.
  
 I have been looking for a USB DAC/AMP solution for a long while for simpleness. I have a E17K which is pretty musical but not powerful enough to even drive the HD-598. I also have a Soundblaster E1 for travel. It is pretty powerful and sounds good for the price (I paid only 30 dollars) but not much more than that. I was looking at Soundblaster E5 but not sure if it sounds good enough. Now I am really glad I find the one I was looking for, the GROOVE. Now I would like o find ta easy way to play flac/wav files from NAS. A laptop is sometimes not so convenient when I am not working with a laptop.


----------



## Sam21

so which Sabre chip does it use ? the ES9018S or the ES9018K2M/C2M ?


----------



## Roy2001

I am thinking of a cheap DIY solution to use Groove with iphone and a battery. what I plan to do is go get 2 micro USB cables, I will cut both and make a micro-USB to micro-USB cable, at the same time, I will take the USB-A plug, and connect the 2 wires for 5V power supply to the micro to micro cable I just made. 
  
 In that way I have a Y cable, one micro goes to my lightning-microUSB adaptor on iphone, the other microUSB on Y side goes to Groove, and the USB-A goes to battery pack. What do you think?


----------



## mtliu

I've seen this solution on Youtube, and it works. It most ceertainly voids the warranty. I've also hooked to Groove directly to my Moto X 2104 with an OTG cable - and it also works - it just sucks the battery 3x faster. I've since switched phones (and carriers), but haven't tried it on my new phone.


----------



## sheldaze

roy2001 said:


> I am thinking of a cheap DIY solution to use Groove with iphone and a battery. what I plan to do is go get 2 micro USB cables, I will cut both and make a micro-USB to micro-USB cable, at the same time, I will take the USB-A plug, and connect the 2 wires for 5V power supply to the micro to micro cable I just made.
> 
> In that way I have a Y cable, one micro goes to my lightning-microUSB adaptor on iphone, the other microUSB on Y side goes to Groove, and the USB-A goes to battery pack. What do you think?


 

 I'm planning to try this instead:
  
http://www.apple.com/shop/product/MK0W2AM/A/lightning-to-usb-3-camera-adapter


----------



## Scrimstar

If I use this as an input DAC for an amp, will there be problems, like short circuiting? This is current flow, where amps are usually voltage increments. 

 Using HD600s and DT880 600OHM, Schitt Vali 2.


----------



## Apogee Don

scrimstar said:


> If I use this as an input DAC for an amp, will there be problems, like short circuiting? This is current flow, where amps are usually voltage increments.
> 
> Using HD600s and DT880 600OHM, Schitt Vali 2.


 

 No, it wouldn't short-circuit an amp - with the output plugged into an amplifier it's basically just acting as a line-output. For best results turn the volume on the Groove up as high as possible without overloading the amplifier's inputs.


----------



## zomvid

Can anyone comment how does the Groove handle BA IEMs?


----------



## sheldaze

zomvid said:


> Can anyone comment how does the Groove handle BA IEMs?


 

http://www.apogeedigital.com/knowledgebase/groove/multi-driver-balanced-armature-iems-with-groove/


----------



## zomvid

sheldaze said:


> http://www.apogeedigital.com/knowledgebase/groove/multi-driver-balanced-armature-iems-with-groove/


 
 Thanks.


----------



## FutureHegemon

I've had my Groove for about a week, and I don't think I could love it any more than I do. I primarily got it for my laptop at work because the HP out sounded awful. It's my first DAC or amp, and it really makes me love listening to music much more than I already did. I find that it's almost I ever want to do whenever I can. This little guy inspired my to get a new 1TB portable drive to bring ALAC files with me to work, as well to rehab my old macbook to use it as a listening machine at home. I even hooked it up to my AV receiver and streamed HQ Spotify and ALAC through my tower speakers, and it sounds awesome. 
  
 It sounds great with my B&W P7s. When I first listened to my ie80s with it, this little guy revealed the mid-bass hump that I'd read about but had never bothered me before. I guess the extra power left it with nowhere to hide, but the well-documented tape mod fixed that problem.
  
 I'm sure a lot of this just stems from my having only ever used the HP outs for all my listening previously, but I feel like this little machine has brought an enormous amount of joy into my life in our week together. The first time I listened to it, I literally got shivers all over my body. I felt like I got high from music. When I had a couple of questions about the unit, Apogee customer service blew me away also. 
  
 I know I'm gushing and probably sound ridiculous. I just freakin' love this thing!


----------



## Kerwin515

I've had my Groove for about two months now and I love it.  It's also my first DAC/Amp that I'm using to drive a set of LCD-XCs.  But now, I've been reading up on the Geek Out v2 and it's piqued my interest.
  
 Are there any here that own both?  I'd like to know your thoughts.


----------



## sheldaze

kerwin515 said:


> I've had my Groove for about two months now and I love it.  It's also my first DAC/Amp that I'm using to drive a set of LCD-XCs.  But now, I've been reading up on the Geek Out v2 and it's piqued my interest.
> 
> Are there any here that own both?  I'd like to know your thoughts.


 
 I had the Geek Out v2 - it was certainly more detailed, and quite good. But in my opinion, it was only good through the balanced output into a headphone capable of balanced input. I disliked vigorously the single-ended output of the Geek Out v2.
  
 And, I'm keeping the Groove - sold the Geek Out v2. Why? Groove does something unique, to my ears. While the Geek Out v2 is more like a desktop system, shrunk down, and it can be bested by a _real_ desktop system. So that's what I did - moved onto real desktop systems. I'll repeat though, there's something special about the drive mechanism used in the Groove. You can read about it on InnerFidelity.


----------



## Kerwin515

sheldaze said:


> I had the Geek Out v2 - it was certainly more detailed, and quite good. But in my opinion, it was only good through the balanced output into a headphone capable of balanced input. I disliked vigorously the single-ended output of the Geek Out v2.
> 
> And, I'm keeping the Groove - sold the Geek Out v2. Why? Groove does something unique, to my ears. While the Geek Out v2 is more like a desktop system, shrunk down, and it can be bested by a _real_ desktop system. So that's what I did - moved onto real desktop systems. I'll repeat though, there's something special about the drive mechanism used in the Groove. You can read about it on InnerFidelity.


 
  
 Thanks, for the input, sheldaze.  What exactly about the single-ended output of the Geek Out v2 was off-putting? How did it sound compared to to the Groove?


----------



## sheldaze

kerwin515 said:


> Thanks, for the input, sheldaze.  What exactly about the single-ended output of the Geek Out v2 was off-putting? How did it sound compared to to the Groove?


 
 It sounded rough to me - too much treble, etch, something just was not right.
  
 The thing is, read the reviews in the Geek Out v2 thread(s), and look for the statements about its sound when people finally hear the balanced. I might have one in that thread too, where I was kind of blown away by the sound from the balanced.
  
 I would just not bother to compare the sound from single-ended against the Groove, because I could not listen to the Geek Out v2 for very long in single-ended. It became tiresome quickly, and this was while listening on the non-fatiguing HD650 headphones.


----------



## jjheadphones

x


----------



## sheldaze

jjheadphones said:


> @sheldaze
> 
> Would you recommend the Groove over O2/ODAC, Schiit-stack for someone who is only going to be using it with the HD650? It's hard to find people who have compared all three with this particular headphone. I've read that it's particularly suited to the HD650s. I was hoping to get your opinion since you're one of the few people who have written about it. If it's an AC power issue, do you think a powered hub would change things?


 
 I haven't heard the O2/ODAC. There is a local member who much preferred the Schiit stack over it - less to do with sound quality and more to do with topology. In the Modi 2 Uber, he was able to bypass a power issue because the Modi is truly powered from A/C wall power. Only the USB chip is powered (or was powered - today it is also powered by A/C wall power) from USB, while the entire DAC is powered by USB in the ODAC. He similarly found he was able to run his headphones more cleanly via the Magni 2 Uber, which also has an upgraded power topology versus the original Magni or even the Magni 2.
  
 But regarding your specific case, I'll have to get back to a listen of the Apogee Groove. I'll compare my Magni/Modi stack a little tonight. It has been a long while, and I've heard much more high end product (and become much more discerning of recent). The convenience of the Groove is very appealing - I just do not recall its signature, so I'd like to refresh a little.


----------



## Sam21

Can someone tell me which DAC chip this unit uses ? 
  
 is it ES9018, ES9016, ES9010 or ES9023 ?


----------



## Aerotec

Just found out I won a HD650/Groove combo from Sennheiser UK at the recent CanJam event in London. Can't wait for it to arrive!


----------



## saintkrusher

If Groove manage to drive HD800s?


----------



## sheldaze

saintkrusher said:


> If Groove manage to drive HD800s?




Yes, it will.
But, I think you'll want to seriously start saving your pennies for the next setup, a desktop setup, after purchase of the Groove.


----------



## MarkF786

sheldaze said:


> Yes, it will.
> But, I think you'll want to seriously start saving your pennies for the next setup, a desktop setup, after purchase of the Groove.




Or save your pennies to buy a Chord Mojo which can drive the HD800s, is still portable, and sounds better than many more expensive desktop setups. 

My Groove has been unused since I got my Mojo. Between my Mojo and my DragonFly Black (for when I want something more portal to use with my iPhone), my desire for headphone DACs & amps is assuaged.


----------



## sheldaze

^ I agree, and note where it sits in my signature 

But I think it is beyond the budget of the person, today. He was looking to buy something immediately (he posted more information in a couple of other threads), so he can use his HD800S.


----------



## mark2410

how much interest would there be in me reviewing one of these?


----------



## TheEldestBoy

mark2410 said:


> how much interest would there be in me reviewing one of these?


 
  
  
 Interested.


----------



## Fruit Cake

Have been using the HD650 with the Groove for about 2-3 weeks.  Very happy however I don't have anything really to compare it to.  I just purchased the HD800S so I can do a direct comparison when the new headphones come in.  I will still keep the Apogee Groove however just for the fact that it is so small and portable and easy to use.  Honestly its a great little device that has the great simple "just works" feeling from an apple device, which I love.
  
 Great purchase and Im very happy.


----------



## MarkF786

One disappointment I've had is th lack of support for multi driver IEMs, which means you I needed to buy another DAC/amp.


----------



## saintkrusher

I have a HD800s to and i wonder if i should buy the Groove for them. Apogee assure me than it 100% drive HD800s. Are you agree with this opinion?


----------



## MarkF786

IMHO, get a Chord Mojo instead.


----------



## mark2410

markf786 said:


> One disappointment I've had is th lack of support for multi driver IEMs, which means you I needed to buy another DAC/amp.


 

 the what now?
  
 could you elaborate on what you mean exactly?


----------



## MarkF786

From Apogee's knowledge base:
  
"Apogee does not recommend the Apogee Groove for use with multi-driver balanced armature in-ear monitors. Due to the design of the balanced armature drivers and crossover networks used in this type of headphone, the Groove’s Constant Current Drive amplifier technology may result in uneven frequency response when used with certain models."
  
 I've tried it myself with SE425 and SE846 IEMs and indeed the frequency response is very uneven, with the drivers being driven at different levels.


----------



## mark2410

markf786 said:


> From Apogee's knowledge base:
> 
> "Apogee does not recommend the Apogee Groove for use with multi-driver balanced armature in-ear monitors. Due to the design of the balanced armature drivers and crossover networks used in this type of headphone, the Groove’s Constant Current Drive amplifier technology may result in uneven frequency response when used with certain models."
> 
> I've tried it myself with SE425 and SE846 IEMs and indeed the frequency response is very uneven, with the drivers being driven at different levels.


 

 ​hmmm curious.  to me that sounds like an impedance thing.  ive noticed that adding impedance is usually beneficial but to things with a crossover there can be wild sound changes.  still ive never before seen a company specifically say, don't use this product with IEM's with crossovers.


----------



## MarkF786

It's the nature of Constant Current Drive amplifiers.


----------



## Fruit Cake

Got my HD800S earlier today, can confirm that the Apogee Groove does indeed drive them fine.  They sound fantastic.  Im sure it is not a perfect pairing, but its a great portable solution.  I think the best part about the Groove is that its super sleek and compact (unlike the chord mojo), plug and play, and only has 2 buttons.  Simple and just works.  I love it.  Still my favorite HiFi purchase.


----------



## mark2410

fruit cake said:


> Got my HD800S earlier today, can confirm that the Apogee Groove does indeed drive them fine.  They sound fantastic.  Im sure it is not a perfect pairing, but its a great portable solution.  I think the best part about the Groove is that its super sleek and compact (unlike the chord mojo), plug and play, and only has 2 buttons.  Simple and just works.  I love it.  Still my favorite HiFi purchase.


 

 ​what is your protable set up, just I noticed they say it isn't usbotg compatable and I assume youre not carrying a laptop in your pocket?


----------



## Fruit Cake

mark2410 said:


> fruit cake said:
> 
> 
> > Got my HD800S earlier today, can confirm that the Apogee Groove does indeed drive them fine.  They sound fantastic.  Im sure it is not a perfect pairing, but its a great portable solution.  I think the best part about the Groove is that its super sleek and compact (unlike the chord mojo), plug and play, and only has 2 buttons.  Simple and just works.  I love it.  Still my favorite HiFi purchase.
> ...


 

 I think portable you really mean portable.  My portable setup is my macbook pro with the Apogee Groove.  I live in SoCal so I have never taken public transit before, if I'm traveling for business that is the setup I bring with me.  I guess I don't have a truly portable setup.


----------



## mark2410

fruit cake said:


> I think portable you really mean portable.  My portable setup is my macbook pro with the Apogee Groove.  I live in SoCal so I have never taken public transit before, if I'm traveling for business that is the setup I bring with me.  I guess I don't have a truly portable setup.


 

 ​ahhhh.  yeah I meant you using, while in motion.


----------



## Fruit Cake

Direct copy pasta from the HD650 thread of my impression of the Groove:
  
  Used the HD650 all afternoon with the stock tubes in the Gungnir/Mjolnir 2, they sound wonderful.  Directly comparing switching back and forth with Apogee Groove, they sound very close.  Surprisingly, the Apogee groove sounds better to me.  Mjolnir 2 with stock tubes vs Apogee Groove, Groove wins. 
  
 Treble is better, sound stage is a bit better, sounds bigger.  Base is a bit less, barely noticeable, very hard to tell apart the difference.  Mids are almost indistinguishable.  Both sound extremely amazing.  The Apogee Groove sounds like they "opened up" the headphones.
  
 This also makes sense, as Mjolnir 2 with stock tubes is...tube.  I think tube is just a smoother more relaxed sound while solid state is much more dynamic and punchy, but I don't need to tell you experts that.  Very interesting comparison.  Very hard to hear the difference, the thing that jumped out at me the most is how the treble sparkled much more with the Apogee Groove, but not harsh at all.  No wonder Sennheiser bundled it together.  Great combo!!!!
  
 Hates off to Apogee to make a device that can pretty much go toe to toe with the big boy Mjolnir 2.  Im impressed, and am very happy with both despite the Mjolnir 2 not sounding significantly better than the Groove, it can do things for the HD800S that the Groove cannot, but that requires a bit more listening and direct comparison.
  
 I am going to post this now so I have this opinion in text so I can refer to it.  If I find time, I will compare Apogee Groove vs Mjolnir 2 with the LISST tubes.


----------



## lugnut

Not trying to be a jerk or condescending, however in music low frequency is bass, not base. JFYI


----------



## Ling Vu

Have read almost every post  so I pulled the trigger to order the Black Friday combo HD650 + Apogee Groove from Sennheiser UK, it is supposed to be with me on this Tuesday. Hope they work fine to my ears then I do not have to return. What I really want to ask is whether anyone has used the Groove with the Apple Lightning to USB 3 camera adapter to stack with an iPhone yet?

http://www.apple.com/uk/shop/product/MK0W2ZM/A/lightning-to-usb-3-camera-adapter?afid=p238%7CsZZJKxuOm-dt_mtid_187079nc38483_pcrid_104154899041_&cid=aos-uk-kwgo-pla-btb-slid--product-MK0W2ZM/A-UK

This one is supposed to help the idevices to, at the same time, export data and get charged.

And has anyone paired this with Sony XBA Z5? If yes then how do they sound?

Would be more than happy if these are all fine. Thanks a bunch everyone.


----------



## sheldaze

ling vu said:


> Have read almost every post
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Yes.
 There is a thread dedicated to discussion on the Apple Lightning to USB 3 camera adapter. See post #58 where I confirmed success with Apogee Groove.


----------



## Hifihedgehog

Deleted.


----------



## Hifihedgehog

Deleted.


----------



## paulguru

Excuse me guys
  
 This device have only 3 levels of volume ?
 I saw 3 leds between the two volume buttons.


----------



## paulguru

Anyone can say me how can be this Groove as sound quality against a sound card Asus STX II ?


----------



## feinanng

This guy mentioned that Groove's dac is better than iFi Micro iDSD which I happen to own one right now. Do you think it is a worthy upgrade for HD650? 
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdDFE2LkjJ4


----------



## Ling Vu

feinanng said:


> This guy mentioned that Groove's dac is better than iFi Micro iDSD which I happen to own one right now. Do you think it is a worthy upgrade for HD650?
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdDFE2LkjJ4




I will audition the micro iDSD this weekend, will try to bring up some kind of indirect comparison if possible (Just sold the Groove recently so cannot A/B them). Just in case you can relate, the Groove falls a bit short to the HA2SE in punches and soundstage when I compared them directly using HD650. Cheers.


----------



## paulguru

paulguru said:


> Anyone can say me how can be this Groove as sound quality against a sound card Asus STX II ?


 
 help ?


----------



## geoffroyi

Would this make a worthwhile upgrade coming from an Apogee One (original edition) driving HD600s ?


----------



## Kerwin515

No there are more.  The volume LEDs have varying brighnesses too.  That being said, I never counded how many steps in brightness there are before the next LED lights up.  Also, when plugged into a computer, changing the the volume in your app or OS passes the commands to the Groove so it stays bit perfect.


----------



## geoffroyi

geoffroyi said:


> Would this make a worthwhile upgrade coming from an Apogee One (original edition) driving HD600s ?


 

 To answer my own question – it almost certainly does. I've returned the HD600s and so can't say for sure how much different they would have sounded connected to the Groove, but I switched to AKG702 in the meantime which already sounded superb when attached to the One. With the Groove, it's now in a whole other league. This little stick is soooo much fun, not because it boosts any particular frequency, but because it makes everything sound so damn real and smooth!


----------



## Matte82

Just received a groove today myself. And for those with multi-ba iems, don't count this little guy out. I actually hadn't seen their note about them before I ordered it. The constant current amp intrigued me. And I like the theory behind it. Plus Ive been looking for something small to use on the go. Mostly with my new Zeus XRA. So when I saw their note and then read some of the issues, I was a bit worried. However I plugged it in today and they work fine together. I also have some 64 audio I can try. So far I'm impressed. Can't say it makes a huge difference in my Zeus, but my over the ear cans are definitely punchier and more life like. I'll post more thoughts after some more time. I will try the 64's asap and report back. For those that may want to try that combo.


----------



## nicdub

I thought someone had posted about the Groove having silent upgrades internally, but I can't find any info.  Anyone else read about this, or have information on this?


----------



## damobananna

Hi

 Has anybody given this a go with the usb3 port on windows I have an ak jr and only usb3 ports (the akjr dac function does not support usb3 port function ), so Iam looking for another DAC


 cheers


----------



## Matte82

damobananna said:


> Hi
> 
> 
> Has anybody given this a go with the usb3 port on windows I have an ak jr and only usb3 ports (the akjr dac function does not support usb3 port function ), so Iam looking for another DAC
> ...




Mine is plugged into a USB 3.0 port on my Dell Precision 7510 running windows 10. It has worked flawlessly for me.


----------



## damobananna

Fkuc and just like that,,there goes another 200 buks

 Thanks :/


----------



## blse59

So Windows 10 Creators Update has built in support for USB Audio Class 2. Has anybody tried it? Any statements from Apogee? The Groove came with a driver because prior Windows version didn't have native support...


----------



## ra990

I posted something about this DAC on the HD800S thread, I'll copy here for those who are interested....

*Apogee Groove vs Audioquest Dragonfly Red:*

So far, I have tried the HD800S with two portable dac/amps, the Apogee Groove and the Dragonfly Red. I came away with the following conclusion after extensive A/B testing. The Dragonfly Red sounds more transparent and clear than the Apogee Groove, but it doesn't get loud enough for a lot of songs I tried. The Apogee Groove sounds pretty decent, but it's a tiny bit more tame with the sound stage and also a little less detailed than the Dragonfly Red. The Apogee Groove does drive the HD800S very well, with it getting louder than I need on any music I threw on. Bass feels stronger with the Apogee Groove. I think the "constant current drive" they are using in the Apogee Grove is working pretty well for the HD800S, but the DAC is better in the Dragonfly Red. The Apogee Groove uses a 28bit ESS Sabre DAC, the Dragonfly Red uses one of the newer 32bit ESS Sabre32 DACs with bit perfect volume control. Apogee also makes a Groove "Anniversary Edition" in gold or silver that uses the same 32bit DAC that the Dragonfly Red uses, so that would be the best of both worlds - but they charge a ridiculous $600 for it, double what the regular Groove costs. I would grab the anniversary edition in a heartbeat if I found it used for around $300. I have settled on the regular Apogee Grove as my portable solution to use with my android phone and the HD800S.

Anyone own the anniversary edition with the improved DAC? If so, how does it sound compared to the regular? Can't seem to find one of those used anywhere...


----------



## audioflaker

I just picked up an Apogee Groove (standard black one.) My overall impression is very warm and detailed! No issues with noise, hum, or interference with this unit. It works great with my iPad and my Android tablet or Mac computer. It drives my HD650's perfectly and works well as a source component with my tube amp. I turn down the volume 8 notches to get the output to be close to 2volts to match a standard CD player.


----------



## -Darkstar-

I've had my Groove since the first of the year and I enjoy it very much. I mainly use it with my T90's and 400i's. I've never been much of a believer in burn in, most of the equipment I've ever had has settled in within 100 hours, but up until about month and half ago, I wasn't impressed with the transparency of the Groove compared to my Dragonfly 1.2. I still don't think it's quite as transparent but it does everything else better. Much more drive, images are more rounded out and solid, and a greater sense of space.

It really changed the presentation of my T90's, even compared to my Icon. My T90's have a more balanced sound and not so treble forward. I highly recommend it to T90 owners.


----------



## clinkzclinkz

ra990 said:


> I posted something about this DAC on the HD800S thread, I'll copy here for those who are interested....
> 
> *Apogee Groove vs Audioquest Dragonfly Red:*
> 
> ...


You are wrong on the chips. Apogee is using 9016s which is the desktop level dac chip, total 8 channels while dfr is the mobile version of 9016, which only 2 channels totally.

9016s and 9016k2m/q2m are different things. One for desktop one for mobile, and it should be the one of the reasons apogee groove running hot as it put a desktop dac chip into a small body.


----------



## ra990 (Jul 30, 2017)

clinkzclinkz said:


> You are wrong on the chips. Apogee is using 9016s which is the desktop level dac chip, total 8 channels while dfr is the mobile version of 9016, which only 2 channels totally.
> 
> 9016s and 9016k2m/q2m are different things. One for desktop one for mobile, and it should be the one of the reasons apogee groove running hot as it put a desktop dac chip into a small body.


Research it, from what I understand only the anniversary edition uses that chip. The regular/black version uses a 28bit chip. There is a teardown picture showing the chip on the black one and a post somewhere in a forum where an Apogee employee mentions that only the anniversary edition uses the 9016 chip and their marketing fails to discern between the two editions.


----------



## clinkzclinkz

ra990 said:


> Research it, from what I understand only the anniversary edition uses that chip. The regular/black version uses a 28bit chip. There is a teardown picture showing the chip on the black one and a post somewhere in a forum where an Apogee employee mentions that only the anniversary edition uses the 9016 chip and their marketing fails to discern between the two editions.


That is not correct and please also research on apogee using the desktop level chip too. It basically means 1 dac in apogee groove = 4 dac chips in dragonfly red. the team in china opened up apogee not the annevesary edtion
http://mobile.soomal.com/doc/20200006852.htm


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## clinkzclinkz

ra990 said:


> Research it, from what I understand only the anniversary edition uses that chip. The regular/black version uses a 28bit chip. There is a teardown picture showing the chip on the black one and a post somewhere in a forum where an Apogee employee mentions that only the anniversary edition uses the 9016 chip and their marketing fails to discern between the two editions.


Also you want to see the 18.4% distortion at high volume from dragonfly red
https://www.reddit.com/r/headphones...ly_say_hi_to_184_thd/?st=J5QWX77V&sh=1c07ee56

https://m.seeko.co.kr/zboard4/zboar...&sc=off&select_arrange=headnum&desc=asc&no=69

Again, you don’t even know what is desktop version chip what is mobile version chip. please do the research on ess chip offical website and understand what is 8 channel dac chip and what is 2 channel version that is mainly used in the mobile phone.


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## ra990 (Jul 31, 2017)

clinkzclinkz said:


> That is not correct and please also research on apogee using the desktop level chip too. It basically means 1 dac in apogee groove = 4 dac chips in dragonfly red. the team in china opened up apogee not the annevesary edtion
> http://mobile.soomal.com/doc/20200006852.htm


So, this is the teardown I was referring to, thanks for linking it.

It shows that the Apogee Groove black is using the ESS ES9018S chip. It seems like you are really informed about this, so I will defer to you. I had just based my review on what I had researched and still can't figure out why there is so much confusion about the chip it uses. The picture shows it pretty clearly, but where are the specs for this chip? I found specs for the ES9018, but not the ES9018*S*.

There is a review about the anniversary edition using a better chip than the black, and they mention that it is the ES9016, which I believe is the same as the dragonfly red. I think you're saying that the Groove uses a desktop chip vs the DFR's mobile chip, which makes sense. But, the black would use a lesser quality chip than the anniversary edition, right? That doesn't make sense if the black is using the 9018 as seen in the teardown, since that would make it a better chip than the 9016? It's too bad Apogee doesn't just list the exact specs of the black vs. the anniversary edition. I'm very curious to find out the exact differences between the black and anniversary, so if you have any official info about that, please share!


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## clinkzclinkz

ra990 said:


> So, this is the teardown I was referring to, thanks for linking it.
> 
> It shows that the Apogee Groove black is using the ESS ES9018S chip. It seems like you are really informed about this, so I will defer to you. I had just based my review on what I had researched and still can't figure out why there is so much confusion about the chip it uses. The picture shows it pretty clearly, but where are the specs for this chip? I found specs for the ES9018, but not the ES9018*S*.
> 
> There is a review about the anniversary edition using a better chip than the black, and they mention that it is the ES9016, which I believe is the same as the dragonfly red. I think you're saying that the Groove uses a desktop chip vs the DFR's mobile chip, which makes sense. But, the black would use a lesser quality chip than the anniversary edition, right? That doesn't make sense if the black is using the 9018 as seen in the teardown, since that would make it a better chip than the 9016? It's too bad Apogee doesn't just list the exact specs of the black vs. the anniversary edition. I'm very curious to find out the exact differences between the black and anniversary, so if you have any official info about that, please share!


Hi, 9018s = 9018, apogee uses desktop 90xx series chip (8 channels, which you can clearly see from the official apogee website), while most of the other portable dac, use 90xx mobile version (2 channels). 
1 apogee groove 9016 chip = 4 dragonfly red 9016 chips.
http://www.esstech.com/index.php/en/products/sabre-digital-analog-converters/audiophile-dacs/ these are 8 channels chip
http://www.esstech.com/index.php/en/products/sabre-digital-analog-converters/sabre-hifi-mobile-dacs/ these are 2 channels chip

Let me explain why dragonfly red/black has wrong adversement that make you think it is similar as apogee's since they omit the "K2M", as you can see in the previous link, 9010 does not have 8 channels desktop chip only 9010K2M, but they didnt state, same for dfr, it is 9016K2M.


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## ra990

clinkzclinkz said:


> Hi, 9018s = 9018, apogee uses desktop 90xx series chip (8 channels, which you can clearly see from the official apogee website), while most of the other portable dac, use 90xx mobile version (2 channels).
> 1 apogee groove 9016 chip = 4 dragonfly red 9016 chips.
> http://www.esstech.com/index.php/en/products/sabre-digital-analog-converters/audiophile-dacs/ these are 8 channels chip
> http://www.esstech.com/index.php/en/products/sabre-digital-analog-converters/sabre-hifi-mobile-dacs/ these are 2 channels chip
> ...



I already understand the difference between the dragonfly products and the Apogee Groove (mobile vs desktop dac). I'm more interested in the differences between the Apogee Groove Black vs the Apogee Groove Anniversary Edition. Do you have any info about that?


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## clinkzclinkz

ra990 said:


> I already understand the difference between the dragonfly products and the Apogee Groove (mobile vs desktop dac). I'm more interested in the differences between the Apogee Groove Black vs the Apogee Groove Anniversary Edition. Do you have any info about that?


Sorry I didnt do much homework on the golden one and according to the spec which SNR only improves 2 db means almost no gap between them only for marketing.


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## ChillPill

The Website mentions the following in its Knowledge Base, does it mean It would NOT support my 1more Triple Drivers ?



> *Multi-driver Balanced Armature IEMs with Groove*
> 
> Apogee does not recommend the Apogee Groove for use with multi-driver balanced armature in-ear monitors. Due to the design of the balanced armature drivers and crossover networks used in this type of headphone, the Groove’s Constant Current Drive amplifier technology may result in uneven frequency response when used with certain models.



Could someone confirm this for me, as I have a friend picking an Apogee Groove from abroad in a couple of days for me.
I could stall my decision on getting it, if that is the case.


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## ra990

At this point, I would say there are better options - especially for these types of IEMs. I still use the Groove once in a while, but the DAC in it is very outdated now. The current drive amp on it is good, especially for planars. I wish they would work on an updated version with a 9028 or 9038 DAC and a more powerful amp, maybe battery powered instead of USB powered.


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## Josef Parran

clinkzclinkz said:


> 9018s = 9018


Can I ask where you got info to confirm this?


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## ra990

Anyone have any experience using the Groove's headphone output as a line out to an external amp?


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## LeonardS (Feb 17, 2018)

ra990 said:


> Anyone have any experience using the Groove's headphone output as a line out to an external amp?



You can look at post 261 in this thread, he uses it as a line out

and at post 244 and on there is more discussion of using this as a line out.

I know, old thread!


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## ra990

LeonardS said:


> You can look at post 261 in this thread, he uses it as a line out
> 
> and at post 244 and on there is more discussion of using this as a line out.
> 
> I know, old thread!


Thanks but I got the official response from Apogee support, which was that it puts out way more than line level at highest volume, so not really recommended for inputs requiring line level.


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## Earbones (Jun 27, 2019)

Just picked up a Groove. This is a frustratingly good DAC/Amp. I’ve never used such a superb-sounding, beautifully designed, solidly constructed device that also feels like it was rushed to market before a major deal-breaker issue was addressed.

Simply put, just sitting there and not even playing music, my Groove drew roughly 1% of my Macbook’s power supply every two minutes. That equals a total power drain in around 3 1/2 hours. For a device spec’d to play 12 hours of video on a charge. Again, the Groove was just sitting there, not even playing music. I can only imagine what playing music might draw.

Bottom line, this is a travel-size DAC/Amp that cannot travel. It just draws too much power to be of any use, unless your laptop is plugged into a power source... Which defeats the point of the tiny form-factor entirely. If I am somewhere where I can plug my laptop in, I’m most likely somewhere where a larger DAC/Amp can be used. The Apogee Groove’s minuscule form factor seems to promise flights, train trips, long Uber rides, etc... But it can’t realistically deliver those.

I just get the feeling that Apogee built the prototype, and someone said “man, this really needs a battery to be of any use to anyone”, and the rest of the designers were like “It’s 95% of the way there, let’s just call it good enough”. And you know, they were half right... It is 95% of the way there. But that last 5%, that battery-power redesign they decided to skip... That’s what makes it not good enough.

A damn shame. Apogee, if you ever decide to do the Groove right, I’ll be the first in line to get a battery-powered one. But for now, I must reluctantly return mine.

EDIT:

So after the initial two uses, battery drain has improved dramatically. The unit is also getting far less hot. I am at a loss to explain this... Perhaps it needed burn in? Not real-not-real audiophile burn-in, that always seems to inexplicably improve sound rather than degrade it, lol... But like actual burn-in... maybe a dot too much solder somewhere, and the power was being drawn excessively before it evened out? Much better now. 

So with that issue fixed, I can unhesitatingly recommend this DAC. This is a fantastic little device and well worth $199... I definitely prefer it to the Dragonfly Red. It has a tighter, less bassy presentation. Superb with the Campfire Atlas.


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## pmpmpm

Did anyone compare the Groove to the newer generation of Chi-Fi thumb-drive / dongle dacs? 

When I last listened to one about a year ago with a T90 it blew my mind. Now I own a HD800S and am looking for a DAC. Currently I feed it with an Apogee Duet but I wonder if the set-up can be improved. I'm not looking for a super sterile neutral representation but for a lively sound instead. Thoughts?


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## Moak

HiFiGuy528 said:


> PHA-3 sounds better in that regards.
> 
> Here's my little hack.


Could you tell me why it is not working? It is the same constellation like yours...


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## BobMonkhouse

I could be wrong by I believe your USB splitter cable is different. It seems your cable charges the phone using the battery bank while the Groove is using the phone data and power. The other one uses the battery bank to power the Groove directly while it uses just the data from the phone.


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## Moak

BobMonkhouse said:


> I could be wrong by I believe your USB splitter cable is different. It seems your cable charges the phone using the battery bank while the Groove is using the phone data and power. The other one uses the battery bank to power the Groove directly while it uses just the data from the phone.


Yes, that‘s exactly correct!!! That was the failure. I took the wrong cable. I bought another and it is working, now!
Thank you!


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## BobMonkhouse

Which cable worked for you? Rarely I use my Groove powered by my phone but would like to try it with a separate battery pack.


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## Moak

BobMonkhouse said:


> Which cable worked for you? Rarely I use my Groove powered by my phone but would like to try it with a separate battery pack.


This cable is working for me:
https://www.amazon.de/System-S-USB-...ms-s+usb+kabel+splitter&qid=1582560997&sr=8-3
in connection with this hub:
https://www.amazon.de/EasyULT-3-Por...Ñ&keywords=easy+usb+hub&qid=1582561215&sr=8-4


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## Toddy

Again, I apologize for resurrecting an ancient thread (and in case the question has already been answered)… But I got my Apogee Groove today and it is getting really warm/almost hot quite fast. I couldn't measure it, but I'd estimate at least 50°C/120°F — is that normal? Or a sign for a defective unit?


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## geoffroyi

Toddy said:


> Again, I apologize for resurrecting an ancient thread (and in case the question has already been answered)… But I got my Apogee Groove today and it is getting really warm/almost hot quite fast. I couldn't measure it, but I'd estimate at least 50°C/120°F — is that normal? Or a sign for a defective unit?


In my experience, that's  normal. It gets very hot in usage.


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## Toddy

geoffroyi said:


> In my experience, that's  normal. It gets very hot in usage.


Wow. So ist must use up quite some amount of power to produce that much heat. So much for planning to use it with my phone…


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## ra990

Yep, goes through batteries like the cookie monster goes through cookies. It's a big downside.


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## Earbones

Amazing DAC, particularly the special editions, which are actually reasonably priced now.

But yeah, it’s just not a mobile solution. I tried to make it work, but it will drain anything- iPhone, iPad, even a MacBook.

I wish they’d released a battery operated version. As it stands, it’s a nice solution if you want a super clean and spare desktop, and will be using it with a computer connected to power...


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## -Darkstar-

Works great with my laptop but wouldn't recommend with a phone. The high heat is normal.


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## Toddy

-Darkstar- said:


> Works great with my laptop but wouldn't recommend with a phone.


Too bad that's what I intended to use it with…


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## philslade

I use it with an iPad or iPhone, an Apple lightning to USB 3 camera adapter, a longer/stronger aftermarket USB cable, and either the iPad charger or an Anker USB PowerCore battery supply. It can drive HD 650s decently and is simply delightful with my ER4S. Basically, nice if you are seated/lounging at home. The sound is like a spa for the ears. It just changes with the source, makes it effortless to listen into details and causes zero fatigue.


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## Stuff Jones

Earbones said:


> Amazing DAC, particularly the special editions, which are actually reasonably priced now.
> 
> But yeah, it’s just not a mobile solution. I tried to make it work, but it will drain anything- iPhone, iPad, even a MacBook.
> 
> I wish they’d released a battery operated version. As it stands, it’s a nice solution if you want a super clean and spare desktop, and will be using it with a computer connected to power...



Do you mean the 30th anniversary editions? I can't find any for sale.

Also, how does this doe with IEMs. Any hiss with not especially sensitive ones?


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## ra990

Not good for IEMs. It has a high output impedance that makes it better for headphones with 150ohm or higher impedance.


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## Toddy

ra990 said:


> Not good for IEMs. It has a high output impedance that makes it better for headphones with 150ohm or higher impedance.



If I remember correctly, they were intended to be used with the Sennheiser HD 650 (300 Ohm). Some time ago Sennheiser even sold them bundled. I also found it to work very well with my Beyerdynamic DT1770 (250 Ohm).


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## tomi1976

So - I bought a preowned Apogee Groove. As new condition, paid in cash and now I read I need to register to be able to get the drivers and I can’t register without a proof of purchase?


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## ra990

tomi1976 said:


> So - I bought a preowned Apogee Groove. As new condition, paid in cash and now I read I need to register to be able to get the drivers and I can’t register without a proof of purchase?


That's ridiculous, are you sure about this? I remember it requiring a registration/account, but not a proof of purchase. It is a class compliant device, I think, so you might be able to use it with limited sample rates without the official driver.


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## drbluenewmexico

ra990 said:


> That's ridiculous, are you sure about this? I remember it requiring a registration/account, but not a proof of purchase. It is a class compliant device, I think, so you might be able to use it with limited sample rates without the official driver.


Write customer service at Apogee and they will send it to you!


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## Alino (Aug 12, 2022)

ra990 said:


> Not good for IEMs. It has a high output impedance that makes it better for headphones with 150ohm or higher impedance.



Still have to try it with headphones, but with these DD iems (FAudio DS,  Penon Serial) and a power Bank Groove works some worth magic.


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