# Poll...Do you hear a difference in cables?



## 883dave

Please give a list of the cables (power cord ~ interconnects ~ speaker ~ dock) you have tried.


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## JaZZ

HD 600/650 headphone cables
 Zu Mobius
 Silver Dragon (two generations)
 Equinox
 Headphile BlackSilver
 Oehlbach
 HD 600/650 stock cables
 lots of homegrown cables (copper + copper/silver hybrids)

Interconnects
 Zu Gede
 Silver Dragon
 Gessner cable
 Rudistor Titan
 noname silver coaxial cable
 various cheap noname cables
 lots of homegrown cables (copper + silver + aluminum + carbon... + hybrids)

Speaker cables
 Monitor Audio (...?)
 lots of homegrown cables (copper magnet wires)
.


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## markl

The problem with this poll is that many (notice I didn't say "all") cable nay-sayers have never even bothered to listen to any aftermarket cables. Their mind is made up already. You need another choice:

 "I've never listened to aftermarket cables, but I still don't hear a difference."


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## 883dave

markl...

 Very good point, wish I had of thought of it before I posted.


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## gsansite

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markl* 
_The problem with this poll is that many (notice I didn't say "all") cable nay-sayers have never even bothered to listen to any aftermarket cables. Their mind is made up already. You need another choice:_

 

The problem with this poll is it includes power cables, interconnects and speaker wire. While I believe the latter two make a difference (within reason), IMO power cables only make a difference if you have severe interference problems.


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## eyeteeth

My most recent boutique cables have been Nordost Frey interconnect ($900), Nordost Vishnu power cords x 3 ($650) and PS Audio speaker cables ($800). I switched the lot out for Belkin PureAV interconnect ($30), Volex x 3 ($10) and a Signal speaker cable ($109).

 Do I hear a difference? I don't know. I think the less expensive configuration sounds better. Is it just in my head? It must be. I know I went back and forth between the Frey and Belkin for hours over a few days (on and off) and I couldn't say if they sounded the same or not so subtle was the difference. I'm certain that if it were blind listening I'd wouldn't know.

Ever so slightly different maybe, but totally irrelevant for the enjoyment of music.

 A friend/HIFI shop electrician is terminating for me some inexpensive off the reel bulk Cardas interconnects and speaker cable and that'll be it for me, I'm definitely out of the cable game.


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## eyeteeth

I voted 'no' although that's not an accurate answer. I just think wire is far less important than it is believed to be.


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## nelamvr6

I definitely heard a difference between my Grovers and the stock cables I had before, and between the Grovers and the Audience cable I was using. I also heard a (big) difference when I upgraded my speaker cables.

 The difference between two good after market cables may be more subtle than the difference between crappy cables and good cables. But you'll never know unless you actually listen, and listen with an open mind.


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## sbulack

I started with stock power cords and $5 Belkin RCA or mini-to-RCA IC's.

 The power quality in my locale varies greatly based on day of week and time of day - resulting in a very noticeable SQ difference from my Amp. So, pretty soon, I picked up a Brick Wall Audio SurgeProtector/PowerFilter to plug all of my sources and amp into. I noticed a really nice improvement in noise floor and dynamics, spectral balance and timbral richness. Also, the filter greatly reduced the variability of audio performance I was getting at different times during the week. Well worth the $250 I paid for it. Not a cable, but my first experiment in power filtering and audio quality.

 Then came a succession of IC's over a several year period.
 First, the SignalCable Analog II in place of the $5 Belkin between my soundcard and amp. - WHOA!!! Striking improvements in noise floor and dynamics, the spatial properties of sounds and their spectral fullness and balance.

 Then, Headphile CPU cables in copper and silver - copper quickly turned out (and still is) my favorite for its spectral balance and spatial characteristics.

 Then, a sidestep into a MagWires Original mini-to-RCA from Jim Hess. This cable turned out to have synergy with a satellite listening station I was building from an opamp-rolled original Go-Vibe portable amp, a vintage portable CDP, and the AKG K240S. Prior to putting the MagWires IC from CDP to amp, the sound of this rig was "good" and "enjoyable", but that next step of quality where real "beauty" blossoms was not there. The installation of the MagWires IC provided a movingly beautiful listening experience, without loosing the "groovalizer" fun of the K240S.

 About a year or so later, I tried an original Grover UR (no numbers yet). I was floored by the improvements I heard - where I finally heard a sound that I could honestly describe as "transparent". The sound no longer had the feel of being "pumped out" to me, but of effortlessly just being there. Noise floor/dynamics, refinement AND impact, texture/timbre, spatial imaging and coherence, acoustic spectral balance and coherence all took big steps up.

 I was also putting together an inexpensive (but decent sounding) speaker rig with vintage receiver - and wanted some long IC's to provide some interconnection between my headphone rig and this speaker rig. The basic BlueJeans Cables RCA audio cables provided the level of quality I was looking for at the price I was willing to pay in the lengths I needed for convenience.

 A year later, I purchased another Grover UR (6 at this point) AND a Bogdan Audio (2006) Gold Silver Spirit IC. This IC conveys sound at a quality level at least as fine as the Grover IC, but with an interesting (and very complementary) difference. The BGSS gives more the very fast, diaphanous and sublime sound of a planar speaker while the Grover gives a more earthy and tangible feel to the sound. Both presentations of the sound are engaging and transporting in their own ways - and enable rather different (and nicely complementary) appreciations of the same music recordings.

 Somewhere between the original Grover UR and the Bogdan GSS, I came upon the recommendation of Volex 17604 power cords instead of stock IEC PC's. For the $7.50 price of each, I splurged, and purchased one for every computer I use as a digital audio source, and for every source and amp I own with an IEC AC jack. Based on my first results with the Brick Wall unit, I was expecting some improvements worth the $50-ish that I paid for all the Volex PC's. The most noticeable improvement came from the Behringer DEQ 2496 that I use BOTH for its digital EQ capabilities AND for its DAC to produce the actual analog audio I listen to from digital inputs. I could go through the sound quality scorecard line items that improved (which I won't), but the most striking improvement was that the Sennheiser "veil" which was over the sound of my HD580's evaporated - leaving the fine sound from those phones as clear and immediate as all of my other phones. WOW!!!

 After about six months or so, I wanted to try an Iron Lung Jellyfish. On the Behringer, the sound produced using the ILJ was definitely more refined, BUT, when the ILJ fully settled in, the Sennheiser "veil" was back. So, back to the Volex.
 My work rig, on the other hand, was having its sound quality diminished for me by highs that could vary from perfectly beautiful through fatiguiging all the way to downright unpleasantly harsh, depending on the recording. So, I tried the ILJ on the work computer that I use as my digital audio source (and to power my USB soundcard). Well, the refinement of sound that came out on my home rig as Sennheiser "veil", transformed the highs on my work rig into what I have described as "movingly beautiful". Getting the synergy right in the match between source and Power Cord made all the difference.

 Most recently, I've purchased a Black Sand Cable Violet Z1 PC for the Behringer in my home rig. It's gone through the recommended 150+ hours of use prior to critical listening. Overall, the kinds and amounts of SQ improvements in my rig since the introduction of the Violet Z1 has resulted in an enhanced intuitive listening experience for me. I'm more than hearing better sounds. I'm hearing more of the creative musical expressions of the PEOPLE behind the creation, performance and production of the music. One could say that, "I hear LIVE people." When the sum of the SQ improvements results in an enhanced and more meaningful perception (to me) of what I'm listening to, it raises the value (again, to me) of the pursuit of better sound to a new level.

 That's all the long way of me saying - "Yes, I hear a difference worth pursuing (to me) in the sound I get from my rigs when I use different cables."
 And, I've found that matching the right cable to each audio path (given the different components and performance profile of each audio path) can make a substantial and worthwhile difference.


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## mrarroyo

To me the biggest difference was when I used the Headphile Senn V2 in Black Silver on my HD600. I had tried other cables and did not notice a difference.


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## Kees

Yes, I hear a difference.
 I used more than I can remember. Some of those are:
*HD650 cable*:
 stock
 Equinox
 Rudistor

*IC*s
 vdHul (most models)
 Siltech (most models)
 XLO
 LAT
 DYI (copper)

*Speaker cable*
 vdHul Magnum
 Monster M1
 OCOS
 DIY utp-cat5

 I found no connection between price and _sound_ quality whatsoever.
 The best cable is only the best cable for a specific combination of components. 
 Very cheap cables can very well be the very best solution for your specific situation. Even in a very expensive setup.
 Very expensive cables can be very good too.


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## BrianS

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nelamvr6* 
_The difference between two good after market cables may be more subtle than the difference between crappy cables and good cables. But you'll never know unless you actually listen, and listen with an open mind._

 

I agree with this, but did not vote as the only comparison I have made is between stock hd650 cable and zu mobius. There is a difference, but it is subtle and not sure if it's worth it.


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## pabbi1

IC:
 RatShack generic
 Whatever came with the unit
 Silver litz braid - circa 1985 (mfg unknown)
 Moon Blue Dragon
 Grover UR3
 Grover UR4
 Eastsound Golden Raincoat (too lazy to look up what this really is)
 Grover UR6.
 Grover UR7
 Monster Optical 
 Custom OFC XLR -> XLR

 IC tweaks 
 Contact cleaner / QuickSilver

 Speaker
 Litz Braid Copper
 Monster something or other
 Newkonceptz KASA Kable Silver Plated 12AWG

 Senn
 Stock hd600
 Stock hd650
 Oehlbach
 Moon Blue Dragon
 Moon Silver dragon
 ApureSound OFC / Silver alloy 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






 But, I see no need to vote either - my experiences can most likely not help anyone in any way, since this is all a journey of self discovery...


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## Jasper994

I have observed differences in cables, but I'm very much against spending ludacris prices on cables. 

 In my home rig I'm perfectly happy with Mogami's offerings.


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## Asr

Anyone who can't hear a difference between cables is not a Head-Fier! 'Nuff said! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Damn straight I can hear the diff between my cables. I wouldn't say it's night and day but it's not subtle either - "marginal" might be a good word for it. My ears are trained enough so I can even hear the difference between Signal Cable's Silver Mini and Silver Resolution Analog - the cores are identical, but the Silver Mini is terminated with copper Eichmann bullets, whereas the other is terminated with silver Eichmann bullets. I can tell the two apart now, wouldn't have been able to a few months ago.


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## EFN

Listening is Believing

 Case closed.


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## Zorander

I can hear differences clearly, especially with headphone cables and, in decreasing degrees, interconnects, power cords & speaker cables.

 Now whether I find the 'difference' (which does not always necessarily mean 'better') worth the asking price of mid- to high-end cables is something else altogether.


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## Patrick82

The difference between Nordost Vishnu and Nordost Valhalla power cord is subtle when doing 5 second switching like skeptics recommend. But when doing the switching after 1-2 hours the difference is night and day! It doesn't take a genius to figure out the reason why all blind tests fail when they are done in a system other than your own. Your ears need time to adjust to a certain sound before you make the switch!

 When I replaced stock power cord with Vishnu the first thing I heard was that it was smoother, but it was very subtle. I had no idea it would make it smoother when I bought it, I just expected more detail and transparency. But there wasn't more detail, the edginess was just smoother.
 Both Vishnu and Valhalla sound silky smooth compared to the harsh stock power cords. Valhalla has a clear, transparent window to the music. Modify it to same size as Vishnu and the window opens up. Vishnu has something in front which is easy to hear in the long-term, it makes it very relaxing though. Stock cable compensates from the muddiness in the system by making it harsh and edgy.
 Stock, Vishnu and PS Audio xStream Statement power cables sound very different and are good in their own way, but all have weaknesses. I haven't heard anything wrong with my modded Valhalla.


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## Zenja

I didn't vote because I haven't really had any experience with cables with which to tell if I can tell a difference or not.


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## TKO

Head-Fiers,

 yes, but only between the stock RCA cables that come free with the equipment and properly engineered OFC Copper. 

 I have yet to be convinced that there is a difference, that can easily be identified, in a repeatable fashion, between any of the OFC cable/interconnects, regardless of the price or the physical engineering. 

 Cheers.


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## Jeff E

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *883dave* 
_Please give a list of the cables (power cord ~ interconnects ~ speaker ~ dock) you have tried._

 

For a long while I was a hardcore skeptic about the audible effects of wire in audio, thinking the claims were like selling snake oil. However, I have had two experiences that have convinced me of cable's audible effects.

 I A/B-ed two pairs of Senn HD650, one with a stock cable and one with a Moon Audio Silver Dragon. It was pretty clear that the SD sounded brighter and paired better with the 650s.

 Extended, careful listening to the three interconnects in Edwood's controversial, long-term experiment. At one point I inadvertently misidentified the cable and when I started to take notes, they didn't correspond to my previous notes. This contradiction alerted me to my identification mistake and confirmed (to me) that I was hearing a difference in the cables.

*Disclaimers:* this is just a hobby, 60 year-old ears, mid-fi equipment, easily distractible from audio analysis by the music, YMMV


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## Mr.PD

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *883dave* 
_Please give a list of the cables (power cord ~ interconnects ~ speaker ~ dock) you have tried._

 

I voted yes.

 Interconnects;
 Radio Shack Gold
 Monster 200, and 400
 Nordost Solar Wind 
 Audioquest Coral
 Audioquest Viper
 Zu Gede
 DiMarzio M Path

 Power cords
 Zu Bok
 Head Fi group buy

 Speaker cables
 Zu Julian
 Kimber Kable bulk

 Headphone cable
 Cardas 

 Several homemade portable cables


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## 883dave

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jeff E* 
_*Disclaimers:* this is just a hobby, 60 year-old ears, mid-fi equipment, easily distractible from audio analysis by the music, YMMV_

 


 EXCELLENT ANSWER (Disclaimer)


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## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jeff E* 
_For a long while I was a hardcore skeptic about the audible effects of wire in audio, thinking the claims were like selling snake oil. However, I have had two experiences that have convinced me of cable's audible effects.

 I A/B-ed two pairs of Senn HD650, one with stock cable and one with Moon Audio Silver Dragons. It was pretty clear that the SD sounded brighter and paired better with the 650s.

 Extended, careful listening to the three interconnects in Edwood's controversial, long-term experiment. At one point I inadvertently misidentified the cable and when I started to take notes, they didn't correspond to my previous notes. This contrdiction alerted me to my identification mistake and confirmed (to me) that I was hearing a difference in the cables._

 

Once I tweaked my system and replaced Valhalla with stock power cord for the computer so I could keep my server on. After a day of tweaking I turned on the system and was disappointed that it sounded so thin, edgy and harsh after my tweaks, so I went to look inside the closet and noticed that stock cable was plugged in instead of Valhalla! I put back the Valhalla and my tweaks had made an improvement.


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## Scrith

w/ relative (within category) ratings:

 Interconnects
 -------------
 **** DIYCable.com Exodus Quadfield
 **** Cardas Golden Reference
 *** Zu Varial
 * Kimber Silver Streak

 Digital Interconnects
 --------------------
 **** Zaolla Coax
 **** Zu Ash Coax
 **** Elco Audio UDC-S Coax
 **** Van den Hul Optocoupler toslink
 ** eBay toslink
 * Asus Motherboard toslink

 Headphone Cables
 -----------------
 **** Moon Audio Black Dragon w/ Qualia 010
 * Stock Qualia 010
 **** Zu Mobius w/ Sennheiser HD650
 *** Moon Audio Silver Dragon w/ Sennheiser HD650
 * Stock Sennheiser HD650

 Speaker Cables
 ---------------
 **** Cardas Golden Dragon
 *** Nordost Blue Heaven
 * Speltz Anti-Cable

 Power Cables
 -------------
 **** Black Sand Violet Z1 (I have four with various types of terminations)
 *** PS Audio Statement (old style)
 ** PS Audio Plus (old style)
 * Stock cables


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## buggers

59 peple hear difference.. wow. that is alot.


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## meat01

The poll question should be "Do I think I can hear differences?"

 ICs:

 Various Audioquest Cables
 Kimber Cable
 Monster Cable
 DIY cables made with Parts Express microphone cable
 DIY cables made with *paper clips soldered together and scotch tape*
 DIY braided 22 gauge wire
 Radio Shack Fusion
 Radio Shack
 Acoustic Research

 Speaker Cables:

 Audioquest Type 2 and Type 4
 Kimber 4TC
 Radio Shack bulk spool
 Various Monster Cables
 DIY Cat 5 cables

 Digital Cables

 Ebay Glass Cable
 MCM Glass Cable


 Power Cables:

 Quail


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## markl

As I expected, it goes to show that, despite all the constant arguments, it really is a very vocal (and seemingly bitter too, at least in their tone) minority who carry the anti-cable torch around here. It really is a non-issue for audiophiles that's been resolved eons ago.


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## 883dave

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *meat01* 
_The poll question should be "Do I think I can hear differences?"_

 

That is a question only you can answer.


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## Vul Kuolun

This poll is not about HEARING differences in cables. Assuming at least the supporters didn't do the three letter test (or at least two letters), it's about EXPERIENCING differences in sound through different cables, as the term "hearing" makes a clear statement on the used sense(s).

 Because of the nature of the forum, we can not make a statement on the substantiating reason for it, nor can we exclude reasons accounted in the test person; neither the believers nor the skeptics.

 And yet i know high inquisitor markl will not gonna like this, this isn't about pro's and con's of DBT. It's about limits, applied to both parties.

 As for the proportions: different forum, different proportion. Who wouldn't have guessed this result round here (in a DBT free forum)?


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## buggers

do y think big companies will discover secret of cables... like sony..


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## Sleestack

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *buggers* 
_do y think big companies will discover secret of cables... like sony.._

 

No... unless they venture into cryogenics. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Big companies... unless they are Bose, are unlikely to take the leap of faith required to market audiophile products without any scientifically verifiable proof. That being said, I'm not one to say that cables don't make a difference for everyone... similarly constructed cables just don't make a difference for me (assuming adherence to basic manufacturing parameters and technical specifications). I haven't voted either way b/c I can't say either is true for me w/o exception.


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## buggers

What music causes bigest difference..? Recommend Cds.


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## Vul Kuolun

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *buggers* 
_do y think big companies will discover secret of cables... like sony.._

 

Cannot exclude that one 100%. But if it happens, big company or small, it would be a major revolution changing known basics in acoustics and/or electronics. I find it rather unlikely that a few garage-type companies find the holy grail, and all they do is sell some overpriced cables. There is no proportion to it.

 This is not only about a "secret" in cables. If there was something physical to it, it would be a major affair. That's what makes it so implausible.

 And it's definetly something that would affect the big ones. Think about the internal signal routing in a modern 5.1 Receiver, how many solder joints the signal passes, etc. Imagine what resources that would be for the manufacturers?
 If it was an advantage to the competitors, bet your kidney they would use it. But that would of course destroy the wonderfull atmosphere of conspiracy and secret knowledge surrounding the accessory scene.


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## philodox

.


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## buggers

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *philodox* 
_._

 

phil. you are a troll?


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## markl

Quote:


 And yet i know high inquisitor markl will not gonna like this 
 

 That's Grand Inquisitor to you, bub.


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## Vul Kuolun

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *buggers* 
_phil. you are a troll?_

 

Are you?


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## Romanee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sbulack* 
_I started with stock power cords and $5 Belkin RCA or mini-to-RCA IC's.

 [..... lots of comments were here .....]

 One could say that, "I hear LIVE people." 
_

 

Seems you've had lots of rich and entertaining experiences. 

 I'm really glad you didn't say "I hear DEAD people"!


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## PhilS

We should have another poll. How about this one:

 "Do you feel it is necessary in the context of a simple poll asking about who hears differences in cables to get into semantical issues about whether people are really just "experiencing" differences, or whether people merely "think" they hear differences (as opposed to actually "hearing" them), or can you instead resist the effort to be argumentative?


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## Patu

I've heard (and in some cases owned) dozens of interconnects and three different headphone cables. Yes I can hear the difference between them. I haven't got into power cables yet and I hope I never will.


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## Vul Kuolun

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PhilS* 
_We should have another poll. How about this one:

 "Do you feel it is necessary in the context of a simple poll asking about who hears differences in cables to get into semantical issues about whether people are really just "experiencing" differences, or whether people merely "think" they hear differences (as opposed to actually "hearing" them), or can you instead resist the effort to be argumentative? 










_

 

How about this one:

 Do you hear differences in cables?

 a) Yes, if i peek

 b) Yes, if i peek


 Or this one:

 Are you interested in discussing the question if cables make an audible difference:

 a) No, i know anyway

 b) No, i know anyway


 Not too bad either:

 Do you want me to assure you you didn't throw your money out the window:

 a) Yes, please

 b) Yes, please


 etc., etc., rolling eyes and all that stuff


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## Riboge

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sleestack* 
_I haven't voted either way b/c I can't say either is true for me w/o exception._

 

But the question is do you hear a difference in cables, not do you always hear a difference and not do you hear a difference in all cables. And it also is not do you hear a differnce worth paying a lot for, which some have given as reason for abstention. If you ever hear a difference in any cables the correct answer is Yes! Refraining from voting for these pseudo-reasons is simply a refusal to own up to the fact of it for 'political' reasons.

 The stuff from others about thinking one can hear versus hearing or experiencing versus hearing is semantic mush thrown in disrespect at those who report what they've heard. First off, even from their hyper-skeptical perspective it would be thinking one DOES hear a difference, not CAN which can properly can be asserted even if one has never listened to or thru a single cable. Second, with matters of the senses and perception discussed in English, there is no meaningful difference between sensing and thinking you sense something--othewise you are talking about psychosis and sensory hallucinations not perceptions affected by other factors or (ugh)placebo-like effects.


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## 883dave

Such an easy question...

 If you hear a difference the answer would be YES 
 (no qualifications listed, nor asked for)

 If you don't hear a difference the answer would be NO 
 (no qualifications listed, nor asked for)


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## hYdrociTy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PhilS* 
_We should have another poll. How about this one:

 "Do you feel it is necessary in the context of a simple poll asking about who hears differences in cables to get into semantical issues about whether people are really just "experiencing" differences, or whether people merely "think" they hear differences (as opposed to actually "hearing" them), or can you instead resist the effort to be argumentative? 










_

 

Back to topic: I do hear a difference. Its subtle, but there is a difference. Especially my headphone recabling. Volume change is an understatement. It only SEEMS like a volume boost, but Ive been under the impression that clarity and extension at the low and highs can be confused for volume boost!

 [size=xx-small]See? A non arguement-inducing answer. How about a simple "i dont hear anything even after trying some cables?" instead of "do you think you hear stuff?" or " i dont hear crap even though I use stock everything and dont feel like exploring and trying other cables."[/size]


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## eyeteeth

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* 
_The difference between Nordost Vishnu and Nordost Valhalla power cord is subtle when doing 5 second switching like skeptics recommend. But when doing the switching after 1-2 hours the difference is night and day! It doesn't take a genius to figure out the reason why all blind tests fail when they are done in a system other than your own. Your ears need time to adjust to a certain sound before you make the switch!_

 

I dumped the Vishnu x 3 and Frey X 1 more than a week ago and I hear no difference. In fact when the music is on I completely forget that I downgraded. I'm maintaining my position that I've suffered no loss in fidelity and music is every bit as enjoyable as it ever was.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* 
_Stock, Vishnu and PS Audio xStream Statement power cables sound very different and are good in their own way, but all have weaknesses._

 

One thing that is beyond dispute is that certainties of identification and the confidence of knowing evaporate instantly without visual confirmation. What that may mean is for someone else, who cares more than I, to figure out. 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sleestack* 
_That being said, I'm not one to say that cables don't make a difference for everyone... similarly constructed cables just don't make a difference for me (assuming adherence to basic manufacturing parameters and technical specifications). I haven't voted either way b/c I can't say either is true for me w/o exception._

 

This is as close to my position as I've seen in this thread. I'm not one of the faithful anymore but I'm not a full fledged atheist either. I guess I'm an agnostic. The bottom line being that "cables just don't make a difference for me" anymore.

 To answer the original question again, the difference now seems so small that its existence is in question.


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## 883dave

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Vul Kuolun* 
_This poll is not about HEARING differences in cables. Assuming at least the supporters didn't do the three letter test (or at least two letters), it's about EXPERIENCING differences in sound through different cables, as the term "hearing" makes a clear statement on the used sense(s).

 Because of the nature of the forum, we can not make a statement on the substantiating reason for it, nor can we exclude reasons accounted in the test person; neither the believers nor the skeptics.

 And yet i know high inquisitor markl will not gonna like this, this isn't about pro's and con's of DBT. It's about limits, applied to both parties.

 As for the proportions: different forum, different proportion. Who wouldn't have guessed this result round here (in a DBT free forum)?_

 

Again with the drivel...

 Did you not understand the wording of the question?


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## Sleestack

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Riboge* 
_But the question is do you hear a difference in cables, not do you always hear a difference and not do you hear a difference in all cables. And it also is not do you hear a differnce worth paying a lot for, which some have given as reason for abstention. If you ever hear a difference in any cables the correct answer is Yes! Refraining from voting for these pseudo-reasons is simply a refusal to own up to the fact of it for 'political' reasons.

 ._

 


 Politics has nothing to do with it. Unlike many here, I have no emotional attachment to the issue and have made it clear when I don't hear a difference.

 My point is simply this... I hear a difference between an XLR cable and single ended cable. Is that what this poll really wants to know? If so, yes, I hear difference, as I would expect given that one is 75ohms and the other is 110 ohms. Do I hear a difference between similarly constructed cables? No. Nevertheless, I can't always assume I'm dealing with similarly constructed cables, nor do I take the time to try to capture elusive difference I can't readily indentify. 

 I believe my vote should be No, but that just wouldn't be true, would it? I could vote yes, but that certainly wouldn't reflect what I really think.


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## Vul Kuolun

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *883dave* 
_Such an easy question...

 If you hear a difference the answer would be YES 
 (no qualifications listed, nor asked for)

 If you don't hear a difference the answer would be NO 
 (no qualifications listed, nor asked for)_

 


 First, it's not an easy question, it's a naive leading question.It's trying to imply the hearing sense is the only sense involved in the listening process. As this is not true, the result is meaningless in making any declaration on the characteristics of different cables, which surely is the conclusion intended by the op.

 Second, i think we're agreed on the fact that the used testing method has, lets say, at least some impact on the result. Chances are voters voting "Yes" are talking about usual A/B-testing. Voters choosing "No" will most likely be talking about the illegal stuff.

 But maybe the op can tell us what the purpose of the poll is supposed to be.


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## Vul Kuolun

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *883dave* 
_Again with the drivel..._

 

You know, i'd say there are at least some posts on this forum that exceed the content of information in your "posts", too. Not talking bout mine here.


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## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *eyeteeth* 
_One thing that is beyond dispute is that certainties of identification and the confidence of knowing evaporate instantly without visual confirmation. What that may mean is for someone else, who cares more than I, to figure out. _

 

I don't look at my cables when listening. Either it sounds real life or it doesn't. Simple. If stock cable sounds like real life you bet I would use them, I have tried it so many times...
 Valhalla is worth much more than I paid for them because with Valhalla I'm listening to real life and I don't need to upgrade. Problem solved, millions saved in future upgrades. Think about it, how much would you pay for the cure of upgraditis? Modded Valhalla cabling is that cure.


----------



## 883dave

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Vul Kuolun* 
_First, it's not an easy question, it's a naive leading question.It's trying to imply the hearing sense is the only sense involved in the listening process. As this is not true, the result is meaningless in making any declaration on the characteristics of different cables, which surely is the conclusion intended by the op.

 Second, i think we're agreed on the fact that the used testing method has, lets say, at least some impact on the result. Chances are voters voting "Yes" are talking about usual A/B-testing. Voters choosing "No" will most likely be talking about the illegal stuff.

 But maybe the op can tell us what the purpose of the poll is supposed to be._

 

First point

 I will try and break it down thus

 No ~ meaning negative
 Yes~ meaning affirmative

 I ~ meaning you
 do not ~ meaning the opposite of "do"
 hear ~ a sound that enters your own two ears and is interpreted by your own brain. 
 a difference ~ meaning not the same.
 in cables ~ the wires that connect our audio gear

 I do not know how to make the question any simpler. 
 It is not a trick question. 
 There are no hidden words, it can only be read one way, there are no subliminal messages.

 It has nothing to with how a cable sounds, what color a cable is, what the cable smells like, how it lies on the floor, the price of a cable...or any thing else

 Second point

 From reading a few of your posts, I am certain we do not agree, so please do not presume.

 There was no mention of any testing in either question. 

 Let me repeat the question once again.

 N0...I do not hear a difference in cables

 Yes...I do hear a difference in cables

 (refer to the break down above for clarification of what the words in the question mean)

 Again this is not a trick question, there is no hidden meaning.

 The intention of this poll is...to count the number of people who hear a difference in cables, and the number that do not hear a difference in cables.

 Edit...There is no right or wrong answer in this poll


----------



## eyeteeth

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* 
_I don't look at my cables when listening. Either it sounds real life or it doesn't. Simple. If stock cable sounds like real life you bet I would use them, I have tried it so many times...
 Valhalla is worth much more than I paid for them because with Valhalla I'm listening to real life and I don't need to upgrade. Problem solved, millions saved in future upgrades. Think about it, how much would you pay for the cure of upgraditis? Modded Valhalla cabling is that cure._

 

I don't think even the very finest rig possible sounds like real life. It'll sound true to the recording. You're a headphone man (this is head-fi), I'm a speaker man. Valhalla or not, headphones are much less like life for me than speakers. I could go on but you know what I'm saying.

 I think I'm cured of upgraditis right now. I think I have an understanding of the limits of current audio reproduction technology (digital, analogue, amplification, cable, speaker, headphone), where diminishing returns set in seriously, my musical priorities and my budget. I listen to music at home and in hifi shops and I'm getting a major amount of what there is to get, musically. The greatest failings are in the software and there isn't anything I can do about that.

 I won't say not to love your Valhalla or not to credit it with all that you have. Live and let live (it's only music!) But I will suggest that it's possible I would be less convinced of its role were I the listener.


----------



## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *eyeteeth* 
_I don't think even the very finest rig possible sounds like real life. It'll sound true to the recording._

 

It sounds like real life with as crappy ears as mine! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Valhalla is good enough, anything better I wouldn't be able to hear, it sounds already transparent to me. I don't know if the sounds come from real life or the recording, I need to keep pausing music to find out! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'm lucky my ears are this bad. It saves me millions!


----------



## philodox

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *buggers* 
_phil. you are a troll?_

 






 No, I was calling _the troll_ a troll. You don't need to look to hard as there is only one in this thread.


----------



## smallmouth

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* 
_It sounds like real life with as crappy ears as mine! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Valhalla is good enough, anything better I wouldn't be able to hear, it sounds already transparent to me. I don't know if the sounds come from real life or the recording, I need to keep pausing music to find out! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'm lucky my ears are this bad. It saves me millions!_

 

If you were going to spend millions, you might as well hire a band to play live instead of listening to recordings.


----------



## EFN

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* 
_It sounds like real life with as crappy ears as mine! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Valhalla is good enough, anything better I wouldn't be able to hear, it sounds already transparent to me. I don't know if the sounds come from real life or the recording, I need to keep pausing music to find out! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'm lucky my ears are this bad. It saves me millions!_

 

You have our support Pat!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Only when one experience the difference will they believe


----------



## hYdrociTy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *EFN* 
_You have our support Pat!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Only when one experience the difference will they believe_

 

Yea dude seriously. The first time I listened after I recabled all my stuff was like whoa. I got that shudder down my back like something happened, just dont know what. Kind of like first time I was listening and someone far away turned on the crossfeed. I was like wth, they thought they were gonna talk to me so they turn the amp off but they flipped the xfeed.. Now theres no signs of stock cables anywhere. Very noticible difference in "lite" cans like the koss ones and the alo cable vs stock mini-mini when wearing iems.


----------



## eyeteeth

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* 
_It sounds like real life with as crappy ears as mine! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Valhalla is good enough, anything better I wouldn't be able to hear, it sounds already transparent to me. I don't know if the sounds come from real life or the recording, I need to keep pausing music to find out! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

What recordings are you listening to? pigeons, pedestrians and passing cars? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 When I've ventured deep into transparency I heard microphones and edits.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *EFN* 
_You have our support Pat!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Only when one experience the difference will they believe_

 

You have Valhalla? I see Canare in your sig. 


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *hYdrociTy* 
_Yea dude seriously. The first time I listened after I recabled all my stuff was like whoa._

 

This isn't directed at you hYdrociTy but your comment reminds me of something. For anyone who has fooled around with lots of cables, and listened critically many of those times, have you made the human error I have more than once of really appreciating the increased fidelity of a given cable only to realize later that you're listening to the wrong cable? D'oh! It's very humbling but an educational experience. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I guess that's less common in headphone rigs than preamp/amp rigs with multiple rca jacks.


----------



## EFN

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *eyeteeth* 
_You have Valhalla? I see Canare in your sig. _

 

Nope, never in my life I could afford anything near Valhalla price. The point is Patrick has been utterly convinced that Valhalla makes his K1000 all the more sweeter and with due respect any stereo junkie that believe in cables will support that notion.

 My cheapo Canare and CAT5 is enuff to convince me they makes good synergy with my rig because I have tested them over and over again. Placebo or no, what sounds good to me is bliss.


----------



## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *eyeteeth* 
_What recordings are you listening to? pigeons, pedestrians and passing cars? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 When I've ventured deep into transparency I heard microphones and edits._

 

All sounds from every trance album sound like they come from inside my room or from the outside, it's confusing to listen. I hear sound but I look at the spot with my eyes and nothing is there. I hear sound from outside and I go and look, nothing is there. Then I try reaching over with my hands, I can't feel anything but air.


----------



## sbulack

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Romanee* 
_Seems you've had lots of rich and entertaining experiences. I'm really glad you didn't say "I hear DEAD people"!_

 

Yes, LOTS of rich and entertaining listening experiences. From reading YOUR rich appreciations of the things you explore, I guess it takes one to know one. And, No, no "Sixth Sense" for me. I'm finding that what I can explore through the usual five is turning out to be more than I can do justice to in a lifetime. Even for those folks whose recordings have outlasted them, what I am hearing on my rig is a recording of the LIVE them. Are audio recordings amazing, or what, enabling a replay (albeit lossy) of the creative expressions of other people from their past? I find it to be really worth it (in terms of making my life richer and more meaningful) to explore affordable ways to get the most from listening to them.


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* 
_All sounds from every trance album sound like they come from inside my room or from the outside, it's confusing to listen. I hear sound but I look at the spot with my eyes and nothing is there. I hear sound from outside and I go and look, nothing is there. Then I try reaching over with my hands, I can't feel anything but air._

 

I bet if you try hard enough, you can smell sounds and hear colors.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## Vul Kuolun

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *883dave* 
_First point

 I will try and break it down thus

 No ~ meaning negative
 Yes~ meaning affirmative

 I ~ meaning you
 do not ~ meaning the opposite of "do"
 hear ~ a sound that enters your own two ears and is interpreted by your own brain. 
 a difference ~ meaning not the same.
 in cables ~ the wires that connect our audio gear

 I do not know how to make the question any simpler. 
 It is not a trick question. 
 There are no hidden words, it can only be read one way, there are no subliminal messages.

 It has nothing to with how a cable sounds, what color a cable is, what the cable smells like, how it lies on the floor, the price of a cable...or any thing else

 Second point

 From reading a few of your posts, I am certain we do not agree, so please do not presume.

 There was no mention of any testing in either question. 

 Let me repeat the question once again.

 N0...I do not hear a difference in cables

 Yes...I do hear a difference in cables

 (refer to the break down above for clarification of what the words in the question mean)

 Again this is not a trick question, there is no hidden meaning.

 The intention of this poll is...to count the number of people who hear a difference in cables, and the number that do not hear a difference in cables.

 Edit...There is no right or wrong answer in this poll_

 


 You are such a funny guy.

 Sadly, you're unable to understand the complexity of the subject which results in asking naive questions that do not not do in the slightest way meet any requirements to tell you a **** from the results. 
 Now i see, you did not even do it intentionally, which does cast a poor light on your understanding abilities, not mine.

 But if it still is of interest for you:

 No, i do not (no longer) sit in front of my rig, trying different cables and auto-suggest myself hearing dramatic differences.


----------



## Kees

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Vul Kuolun* 
_You are such a funny guy.

 Sadly, you're unable to understand the complexity of the subject which results in asking naive questions that do not not do in the slightest way meet any requirements to tell you a **** from the results. 
 Now i see, you did not even do it intentionally, which does cast a poor light on your understanding abilities, not mine.

 But if it still is of interest for you:

 No, i do not (no longer) sit in front of my rig, trying different cables and auto-suggest myself hearing dramatic differences._

 

You are such a funny guy.

 Sadly, you're unable to understand a simple question, which does cast a poor light on your understanding abilities.


----------



## gsansite

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Kees* 
_You are such a funny guy.

 Sadly, you're unable to understand a simple question, which does cast a poor light on your understanding abilities.




_

 

No, not really. It's a flawed question, anyone could tell you that. Of course these polls aren't supposed to be scientific so you can't use the results as evidence. It's a fair point.

 All these people agreeing with patrick just shows you how _crazy_ some believers are.


----------



## Riboge

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gsansite* 
_No, not really. It's a flawed question, anyone could tell you that. Of course these polls aren't supposed to be scientific so you can't use the results as evidence. It's a fair point.

 All these people agreeing with patrick just shows you how crazy some believers are._

 

Aside from addressing grammar, there is no meaning to "flawed question" except in relation to some stated use to which the answer will be put. There is none in this poll, in fact. But in the minds of those who on priniciple deny differences and wish to ignore any information to the contrary there is a tendeciously presumed end.

 The information so far is that a large majority of those answering hear differences. You would think this would be engaging and challenging to scientific minds to explain in a useful and respectful way how this can be when measurement techniques so far don't show or explain it. That is the end to which I would like to see the poll results put, but I didn't ask the question. Dismissing the phenomenom as placebo or auto-suggestion or the like is no such thing. It is close-minded and contemptuous and thus the opposite of good science or engineering. It is the easy way out of the effort and difficulty of productive investigation of what's prevelent among audiophiles.


----------



## JaZZ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gsansite* 
_No, not really. It's a flawed question, anyone could tell you that._

 

Really? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


 _Of course these polls aren't supposed to be scientific so you can't use the results as evidence. It's a fair point._ 
 

Evidence for what? You're right, there's nothing scientific about this and any other poll on Head-Fi. It's just a playful check of Head-Fi people's cable approach. 

  Quote:


 _All these people agreeing with patrick just shows you how crazy some believers are._ 
 

I can't speak for Patrick nor judge the crazyness of other Head-Fiers, but trusting your own senses is barely crazy and far from making you a «believer» -- which is how the nonbelievers like to name people without their own science-dressed-up ideologic bias.
.


----------



## gsansite

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Riboge* 
_Aside from addressing grammar, there is no meaning to "flawed question" except in relation to some stated use to which the answer will be put. There is none in this poll, in fact. But in the minds of those who on priniciple deny differences and wish to ignore any information to the contrary there is a tendeciously presumed end.

 The information so far is that a large majority of those answering hear differences. You would think this would be engaging and challenging to scientific minds to explain in a useful and respectful way how this can be when measurement techniques so far don't show or explain it. That is the end to which I would like to see the poll results put, but I didn't ask the question. Dismissing the phenomenom as placebo or auto-suggestion or the like is no such thing. It is close-minded and contemptuous and thus the opposite of good science or engineering. It is the easy way out of the effort and difficulty of productive investigation of what's prevelent among audiophiles._

 

Lets not get into grammar, this is a forum not a school.

 The poll is obviously a statement for believers vs. non-believers, the question is suitably vague that it has no real merit (beyond a bit of fun). All I was doing was pointing out that Vul Kuolun did indeed have a point, and it is undeniable. However, as I said, it is irrelevant as this poll is not intended to be scientific, this seems a far more sound basis for dismissing his post.

 If you read my earlier post you will know I am not a 'sceptic' as such, cables do make a difference, but my views are more in line with Sleestack's. I also feel he explained the problem with the question best.

 As to your last point, a lot of people 'think' they can hear a difference, when they start proving it scientific minds might start to enquire. 

 Is it a surprise the audio community is not taken seriously when people believe in brilliant pebbles and magic clocks?


----------



## Old Pa

I voted yes. On a slightly different associated topic (and to get away from the bickering): Anyone hearing differences in "wire" owes it to themselves to clean and condition all their electromechanical connections on a regular basis. CAIG makes DeOxit and ProGold products to clean and condition nonprecious and precious (respectively) metal contact surfaces throughout your audio system. I get mine from www.PartsExpress.com. Only when you have clean conditioned electromechanical connection surfaces (and clean ears, right Tyll? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) will you be able to hear everything else that you have going on with your audio system. And, no, I don't "hear" differences in contact cleaners; I hear the difference between oxidized/corroded/dirty electromechanical connections and clean ones with good contacts and no "microarc-ing". 

 The greatest testimony I know to this happened over five years ago when I had gone through my #1 system and completely cleaned all the electromechanical contacts, plugs and jacks, _without making any other changes._ I had been listening through the speakers to the clean and conditioned system for a while when SWMBO stormed into the room and accused me of spending a whole bunch on money on new equipment. _Even she could hear the difference in the other room!_ I rest my case.


----------



## Riboge

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gsansite* 
_As to your last point, a lot of people 'think' they can hear a difference, when they start proving it scientific minds might start to enquire. _

 

And you obviously didn't read my previous post on this pseudo-distinction. Semantically and conceptually there is just no difference between thinking you hear something and hearing it. When one says "I think I hear it." it properly expresses doubt about what is heard--the speaker's doubt not the listener's(skeptic's).

 Evidence of the senses reported is not subject to proof or disproof. If you hear it you hear it! What it means and what contributed to it is another thing altogether. That's what you should be enquiring about: the FACT that such a high proportion of audiophiles report hearing a difference in cables. That is not the case for pebbles or clocks. All these excuses for avoiding the hard work of meaningfully and at least plausibly explaining the fact!


----------



## gsansite

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Riboge* 
_And you obviously didn't read my previous post on this pseudo-distinction._

 

I read, but didn't agree.

_Edit for insult._

 I'll leave this thread for others to rehash the same arguments repeatedly 'till they find a new thread.


----------



## philodox

My personal proof is that with the stock cable I detest the HD650. With a good cable [cardas, etc] I find it passable with certain kinds of music. With a good cable and balanced I could almost like them.

 Now, to me, going from hatred of something to near acceptance to almost liking it shows a very large change. In addition, I was not expecting this change at all and as such I fail to see how could be chalked up to placebo.

 The confirmation for me is the huge changes that we heard while recabling aerius' K340's. We tried various cables and I got to hear them before and after. Again, a clear change. Of course this time I may have been expecting it. Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gsansite* 
_Clearly your pseudo-intellect outweighs mine, so I'll leave this thread for others to rehash the same arguments repeatedly 'till they find a new thread._

 

Now that is a novel idea!


----------



## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gsansite* 
_Is it a surprise the audio community is not taken seriously when people believe in brilliant pebbles and magic clocks?_

 

The difference is that Clever Little Clock is placebo which they admit on their website (it does nothing to the audio system). Most are having placebo from Brilliant Pebbles as well, but it still changes the sound in one way or another since it is touching the component, I don't think anyone has a system of high enough resolution to hear it.

 There are loads of audiophiles who get placebo when they upgrade their source or amp. But can they really hear a difference? They believe that the bigger the chassis is the bigger the improvement should be, and they would feel ashamed if they didn't hear it. That was never the case with me, I always got disappointed when upgrading amp or source, I expected much more. When I upgraded cables I expected a subtle improvement but instead I got much much more!
 The difference between Vishnu and Valhalla power cord is bigger than a 4 times more expensive source. DAC1 + Valhalla sounds better than Cary 303/300 + Vishnu.
 The same can be said from vibration isolation, the one with the best isolation sounded better.
 And now, the transport which has ERS Paper and Brilliant Pebbles inside sounds better.


----------



## Vul Kuolun

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Riboge* 
_ Dismissing the phenomenom as placebo or auto-suggestion or the like is no such thing. It is close-minded and contemptuous and thus the opposite of good science or engineering._

 

Not to take placebo and self-suggestion into consideration for such changes is arrogant and an absurd exaggeregation of oneselfs abilities. It's the opposite of good science or engineering and the reason why there is no serious research in that direction, although the results would be revolutionary if the effects would be found true.

 What efforts did you make, or could you imagine to preclude this effects?

 P.S.: This grammar-blabla is disgusting. It's an evidence of incapacity. A shame.


----------



## 883dave

This poll was meant to be FUN. 

 THE QUESTION WAS DO YOU OR DO YOU NOT.

 It was not for scientific purposes (and has none). 
 No scientific evidence was asked for. 
 It was not meant in any way to skirt the BDT free forum prerequisite. 
 There is not and will not be any interpretation of the data.
 It was not to debase anyone. 
 There were no hidden meanings or agenda's.
 There are no right and no wrong answers.
 It was not a leading question.
 This was a personal question about what YOU "YOUROWNSELF" hear, it was not about placeabo ~ pseudo (insert your word here) effects.



 It was NOT meant to be a stage for debate over what you may or may not hear, only a simple question ~ DO YOU or DO YOU NOT ~ there were no qualifiers (I did however, ask people to list cables they have tried), I did not ask what you hear, when you hear it, why you hear it, if you can see it or feel it, what it sounds like, why there was or was not a difference.


 What I have learned from this exercise.


 Head-Fiers reading and comprehension skills, generally suck !!!!
 (those that listed the cables they have tried excempt). 


 Some Head-Fiers must assert their own views and what they believe to be true upone others. (this is on both sides of the fence)

 Some Head-Fiers like to bicker and argue about meaningless things that have no importance in life. (I really don't give a "*%@$" about what you hear, as I am sure you don't give a "%@*$" what I hear)

 Some Head-Fiers believe that what they experience must be true for everyone, and must convert the other side. (again, this is on both sides of the fence)

 Some Head-Fiers are paranoid that someone must be trying to put something over on them, and that every question must have more meaning than it's face value.

 Did I miss any???



 Our Senses are uniquely personal. We can never know what the other person, hears, feels, smells, sees, tastes.

 ENJOY THE MUSIC


----------



## Riboge

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Vul Kuolun* 
_Not to take placebo and self-suggestion into consideration for such changes is arrogant and an absurd exaggeregation of oneselfs abilities. It's the opposite of good science or engineering and the reason why there is no serious research in that direction, although the results would be revolutionary if the effects would be found true.

 What efforts did you make, or could you imagine to preclude this effects?

 P.S.: This grammar-blabla is disgusting. It's an evidence of incapacity. A shame._

 

You misunderstand practically everything. I have written many comments on threads about this dispute about the meaning and role of placebo and suggestion and many other factors influencing what is heard. I take it into account much more meaningfully and thoroughly than you know how. But then I am not trying to defend any particular pre-determined position.

 You and others have completely misread what I wrote: "Aside from addressing grammar,..." That means or was meant to mean I was NOT addressing grammar and that using "flawed" to address a naked queston could only make sense when addressing the question's grammar. I am sorry if my wording was ambiguous.


----------



## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *883dave* 
_Head-Fiers reading and comprehension skills, generally suck !!!!
 (those that listed the cables they have tried excempt). _

 

Skeptics do the talking, believers do the listening.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *883dave* 
_Some Head-Fiers like to bicker and argue about meaningless things that have no importance in life. (I really don't give a "*%@$" about what you hear, as I am sure you don't give a "%@*$" what I hear)_

 

That's the sign of desperation and jealousy. They do anything to make themselves believe cables don't make a difference. Why else do they post here? They don't do it for trying to convert the other side, they do it for themselves. It makes them feel big and important. The more they post the stronger their belief becomes.
 The problem is they can't change their belief over night since they don't have cables to test with, they have made up their minds already.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *883dave* 
_Some Head-Fiers believe that what they experience must be true for everyone, and must convert the other side. (again, this is on both sides of the fence)_

 

Little fish, big pond. Skeptics are just scraping the surface and then they call it the truth. People still believe we never landed on the moon...


----------



## 883dave

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* 
_People still believe we never landed on the moon..._

 

Yeah right. 

 I suppose next you are going to tell me it was Louis Armstrong. 
 Saying something like "A small trumpet for me man. But giant trumpet music for all mankind."


----------



## philodox

Actually, there is quite a bit of conspiracy theory 'proof' that leads to the conclusion that the first moon landing was staged.


----------



## Sleestack

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* 
_
 That's the sign of desperation and jealousy. They do anything to make themselves believe cables don't make a difference. Why else do they post here? They don't do it for trying to convert the other side, they do it for themselves. It makes them feel big and important. The more they post the stronger their belief becomes.
 The problem is they can't change their belief over night since they don't have cables to test with, they have made up their minds already._

 

This isn't just about skeptics who have never tried different cables. There are also plenty of people who have gone through the paces with cables and simply didn't hear a difference. I think all parties post here b/c topics are raised and the issue of differences in cables is often discussed. In fact, this poll directly relates to the subject, so why wouldn't they post in this thread?

 If anybody feels their beliefs about cables makes them feel "big and important," it is you. You constantly post about you love of Valhalla even when it has no relevance and you constantly disparage those that don't share your beliefs. Furthermore, aren't you the one spreading your ERS wisdom on other boards like AVS forums? Much humor in that thread, but I do have to give it to you for sticking to your guns:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...6&page=1&pp=30

 Somewhere out there, someone is defintely building a short bus for you.... it uses braided Valhalla for brake lines and rides down a road paved with ERS paper.


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Riboge* 
_Semantically and conceptually there is just no difference between thinking you hear something and hearing it._

 

Aha! Solipsism rears its ugly head!

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *philodox* 
_My personal proof is that with the stock cable I detest the HD650. With a good cable [cardas, etc] I find it passable with certain kinds of music. With a good cable and balanced I could almost like them._

 

When I'm wearing a comfortable pair of pants and my underwear isn't cinching up, I find that I enjoy the company of other people more.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## philodox

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
_When I'm wearing a comfortable pair of pants and my underwear isn't cinching up, I find that I enjoy the company of other people more._

 

Okay... that was random.


----------



## hYdrociTy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *eyeteeth* 
_This isn't directed at you hYdrociTy but your comment reminds me of something. For anyone who has fooled around with lots of cables, and listened critically many of those times, have you made the human error I have more than once of really appreciating the increased fidelity of a given cable only to realize later that you're listening to the wrong cable? D'oh! It's very humbling but an educational experience. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I guess that's less common in headphone rigs than preamp/amp rigs with multiple rca jacks._

 

Yea i know what your getting at! Its very true too. I have no idea wth changed, and Im not sure its for the good or if its just addings sibilance or whatever, but then it indeed did show me that cables made differences/coloration and thats what i was happy about. I grew up hating cables and all that but then I can finally rest knowing I was wrong in that they dont do anything, but I was right that they dont make everything better. They just change it.

 Wow poor little 883dave.. we totally wrecked up his cute little poll. Heh back on track guys!

 Yes to me they do make a difference and these are the cables i've tried in order of prefernce:

 Headphone recables:
 SPC/teflon + nickel plug/cardas solder (sounds.. flavourfully colored)
 Cardas + cardas rhodium plug/cardas solders (tried with ksc35, very airy, no plug yet for senns)
 Rat shack stranded / "gold plug" (pretty transparent)
 Cat5 / "gold plug" (gave away)
 Cat5e stranded / "gold plug" (broke)

 Interconnectss:
 SPC/teflon interconnects + bullet plugs /cardas solder (delicate as hell)
 Zu Oxyfuel (stiff! yet to be burned in)
 Signal Cable Silver Res Digital(nice cable for price)
 Solid Core/teflon + bullet plugs/cardas solder (suprised they suck so bad)
 Monster IDL100(bad connector contact, otherwise ok)
 Monster thx interconnects(meh super tight connecters f'ed up my jacks)

 Powa:
 Tied since I hear nothing: volex/stock stuff


----------



## PhilS

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *philodox* 
_





 No, I was calling the troll a troll. You don't need to look to hard as there is only one in this thread. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Actually, there are at least two of them now -- the usual trolls who can't resist intruding on any thread of this type and bascially diverting the thread into a huge pissing contest.

 Riboge, nice try. As usual, your comments are spot on. But certain folks will not let anything interfere with their desire to advance a particular point of view in every thread that refers in any way to whether people hear differences in cable. You see, they do not care about exploring certain issues, or exchanging mere observations, so that the state of the knowledge of a particular subject might be advanced in some way. They just want to advance _their _point of view regarding the ultimate conclusion that everyone _must _draw, make fun of and insult others, attempt to show how smart they are, and generate another argument. We have seen it all before. Same old stuff; different day.

 The only practical solution it seems is to do what some have done in other threads on occasion, which is to ask a question, or set up a poll, and then state at the outset that the thread is not intended to provide another forum for skeptics or critics to advance their agenda regarding how cables don't make a difference, cables are nothing but snake oil, etc. On several occasions this has prevented the usual arguments and diversion of the thread. Too late for this thread though, as even if we asked that the remainder of this thread be confined merely to whether you hear differences, I am confident that this will not shut certain people up.


----------



## 883dave

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
_When I'm wearing a comfortable pair of pants and my underwear isn't cinching up, I find that I enjoy the company of other people more.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

Does that mean there isn't a big stinky in them?


----------



## philodox

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PhilS* 
_Actually, there are at least two of them now -- the usual trolls who can't resist intruding on any thread of this type and bascially diverting the thread into a huge pissing contest._

 

Damn it... they must be *black* trolls. You cut off one of their limbs and it grows into a seperate individual beast. This is going to be more difficult than I thought. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 EDIT: I just wanted to point out that this was not meant to be some sort of 'racist troll' coment or anything of that nature... just my geekiness showing through as I reference the 'black troll' from D&D.


----------



## Riboge

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sleestack* 
_This isn't just about skeptics who have never tried different cables. There are also plenty of people who have gone through the paces with cables and simply didn't hear a difference. I think all parties post here b/c topics are raised and the issue of differences in cables is often discussed. In fact, this poll directly relates to the subject, so why wouldn't they post in this thread?_

 

To those you refer to who have "gone thru their paces" and do not hear difference in cables and say so, both parts, I offer my thanks. You are providing us with valuable information, just as valuable as those who do their paces and vote Yes. I don't believe you are the ones causing the problem of the pointless contention any more than those who vote Yes after going thru paces--even though a good number in both these groups may be affected by suggestion or biasing motivations, be they positive or negative versions of these.


----------



## Hajime

In my opinion, the differences in cables come solely from the quality of the materials used. Nothing can beat a machine-manufactured cable that's been professionally soldered. Typically, you can find cables from pro-audio companies at around $15-20 that are better made then most audiophile cables.

 For a while, I made my own Sennheiser cables. This was a big mistake. Making a cable by hand, especially a long one with non-standard connectors, is a pain in the ass and a lot of work. It's better to let a company make them on the assembly line and get higher quality product. The sound will be better due to the higher quality workmanship involved. Beyond this, I don't believe there is any difference in cables except for a price tag.


----------



## Vul Kuolun

Riboge, sorry for beeing rude. I misunderstood the grammar thing as a side blow, as i remembered a similar situation in another thread.

 PhilS, you and some others keep constantly complaining about people with a skeptic attitude, calling everybody not stroking your ego a troll. You know, having a discussion assumes having different viewpoints. No different viewpoints, no discussion.
 This poll is about people who hear differences and people who don't. It's such a shame for you to feel so molested just because someone is posting things not backing up your (apparently quite sensible?) position.

 But the more we discuss here,the more i'm afraid for many subjectivists this forum is not supposed to be a discussion forum, but an opportunity for collective masturbation.

 As soon as somebody asks some critical questions, people like you start weeping about the bad, bad trolls. How about an interesting, cogently argument instead of complaining?

 After all, i've come to the conclusion that people like you and the op are just peeved because all you wanted to do was to show how small the community of skeptics here on HeadFi really is, and having a stiffy over it. Sorry i pissed in your soup.


----------



## JaZZ

To be skeptic is a good thing. Pretending to know the truth and making others look like dumbheads is something else.
.


----------



## 883dave

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Vul Kuolun* 
_In fact, i believe people like you and the op are just peeved because all you wanted to do was to show how small the community of skeptics here on HeadFi really is, and to slobber over it. Sorry i pissed in your soup._

 

Why do you keep trying to read between the lines looking for words that are not there?

 Do you ever accept anything at face value.

 I'm sure that you will read this post as..."83 to 23 ha ha ha ha ha I knew you were wrong"

 Quit always being the skeptic, somethings in life are really just as simple as they seem. No one is out to get you


----------



## philodox

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Vul Kuolun* 
_PhilS, you and some others keep constantly complaining about people with a skeptic attitude, calling everybody not stroking your ego a troll. You know, having a discussion assumes having different viewpoints. No different viewpoints, no discussion._

 

It is the way that you present your viewpoints and your general attitude that makes you a troll, not the fact that your belief differs.


----------



## meat01

Vul, The reason you are probably being called a troll, is because you have not voted yet nor have you posted the cables you have heard. The poll did not ask whether you are a skeptic or not and it did not ask how one interprets the poll. You have done everything except what the topic asked for.


----------



## Jeff E

Oh dear. This thread is on the road to lockdown, I fear. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I've got an idea. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Why don't we pretend that the reason we visit this forum is because of what we have in common: our love of music and our interest in the associated equipment used to enjoy it.

 Perhaps, if we ceased the ad hominem attacks and focused on the OP's intent it could be saved.


----------



## PhilS

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Vul Kuolun* 
_PhilS, you and some others keep constantly complaining about people with a skeptic attitude, calling everybody not stroking your ego a troll. You know, having a discussion assumes having different viewpoints. No different viewpoints, no discussion.
 This poll is about people who hear differences and people who don't. It's such a shame for you to feel so molested just because someone is posting things not backing up your (apparently quite sensible?) position.

 But the more we discuss here,the more i'm afraid for many subjectivists this forum is not supposed to be a discussion forum, but an opportunity for collective masturbation.

 As soon as somebody asks some critical questions, people like you start weeping about the bad, bad trolls. How about an interesting, cogently argument instead of complaining?

 After all, i've come to the conclusion that people like you and the op are just peeved because all you wanted to do was to show how small the community of skeptics here on HeadFi really is, and having a stiffy over it. Sorry i pissed in your soup._

 

You missed my point entirely, as you have missed other's before, because you don't care to listen what is really being said. You just repeat the same arguments over and over on this and other threads, to wit; (1) cables don't make a difference and anybody who thinks differently is foolish, (2), this point of view is appropriately expressed on any thread relating to cables, as even the mere suggestion that cables make a difference must be countered on every occasion, and (3) anybody who disagrees wtih the foregoing proposition is just interested in censoring discussion, doesn't want to hear an alternative point of view, or merely wants his ego stroked. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 You just don't get it (not regarding cable differences, as to which there are legitimate points of view on both sides, but on what is appropriate on certain threads), and you never will. No offense, but I won't waste my time with you any longer.


----------



## awptickes

I could not believe the difference when I built my own silver cables. At first there was very little bass, and they sounded narrow, but they broadened out after a few hours, and now the bass extends a bit more.

 Comparing them to copper, the silver sounds cleaner, like someone flipped the mud switch off. It's like wearing glasses and contacts, sure glasses work, but contacts are closer to correct. (Disclaimer: I wear neither glasses nor contacts, my brother does, and he has described them in depth to me)

 I would buy silver cables all over again. It makes me wonder what a difference it makes elsewhere.


----------



## ralphp@optonline

Well I read through most of this troublesome thread and it appears that it has become a rather perfect thread for Halloween in that it seems to be the old subjectivist versus objectivist debate in disguise. Funny how no one has mentioned that up to this point.

 I've always found the objectivists to be rather pushy and very easily offended within the world of audio. Perhaps it's because of all the wild claims and snake oil salemen out there trying to get rich quick with things like magic clocks, brilliant pebbles and other charms. Or maybe it's just a bit of jealousy, not being able to afford all those mega-buck components, speakers and cables. I don't know but their tone can be down right nasty at times.

 I try to take a more measured approach. I know from years of listening that I can't possibly hear everything there is to know about a piece of audio equipment in *any* kind of A/B test, be it blind or otherwise, after all, suppose you were listening to a recording of a string quartet but the equipment did not reproduce piano all that well? Or vice versa.

 And if you don't hear the differences in cable, amps, speakers, headphones, etc. GREAT, good for you - you've just saved yourself a ton of money, now go stand outside your local Mercedes Benz dealership and tell their customers to go and buy Chevys since a Chevy will get them from point A to B as well as a Benz will. Or tell Rolex wears that Timexes tell time as well as their Rolexes do. But whatever you do, just leave us audiophiles the heck alone.


----------



## 003

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markl* 
_The problem with this poll is that many (notice I didn't say "all") cable nay-sayers have never even bothered to listen to any aftermarket cables. Their mind is made up already. You need another choice:

 "I've never listened to aftermarket cables, but I still don't hear a difference." 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

While you have a very valid point there, I have in fact listened to very expensive interconnects and compared them to the cheapest, crappiest interconnects than come stock in "home theater" equipment from best buy. I hear absolutely zero difference.

 And no, it is not because my ears suck. I can successfully ABX FLAC and 320kbps CBR mp3s.

 And when you sit back and think about it, why should cables make a difference? After all, they are bottlenecked by hundreds of factors. Some of these include, the wiring inside amps, dacs, etc... The traces on the PCB inside amps, dacs, etc..., the wire connecting the driver of the headphone to the cable. There are many more. I just listed the major ones.


----------



## Vul Kuolun

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *meat01* 
_Vul, The reason you are probably being called a troll, is because you have not voted yet nor have you posted the cables you have heard. The poll did not ask whether you are a skeptic or not and it did not ask how one interprets the poll. You have done everything except what the topic asked for._

 


 IC:
 Straight wire Chorus
 Standard IC's
 Microphone cable i buy at a local store for maybe 4 or 5 $; I do the soldering myself most of the time. 

 Powerchord:
 Audio Agile, (was about 60$; today i know it's a standard cable made by a big german cablemanufacturer for industry and stuff. It sells for a fractional amount of what i payed for)
 Standard stuff

 Speakercables:
 Various DIY concepts: braided, "abused" industry type cable, standard speaker cable with 1,5 an 2,5mm2

 Power-strip:
 DIY- modified, power conditioner included (DIY)
 Standard, not too ugly type of thing


 I heard differences back in the days, when i wished to hear them. Today i don't.

 Today, i'm just glad i survived the suicidal DIY experiments with 220V and didn't burn the house down.




 You know, sometimes i think maybe one day patrick82 is coming back to HeadFi slipping in my clothes. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But first, i'm waiting on the guys to tell me unless a cable costs 100$, it isn't worth a thing. But the point is, i know how expectation can change the sound.
 How about you?

 BTW, i do definetly not wanna be perceived as a troll. As there were some serious points in the last posts, let me tell you it's not my goal to get on anybodys nerves. Doesn't change my views though.


----------



## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Vul Kuolun* 
_You know, sometimes i think maybe one day patrick82 is coming back to HeadFi slipping in my clothes. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Yes, when I'm deaf and 100+ years old I will come back and tell everyone I don't hear a difference anymore.


----------



## NightWoundsTime

Voted no. Been around here a decent amount of time, heard a decent amount of gear, and I've never actually heard a difference in wires. I've heard plenty of other people I trust proclaim differences in cables, so I believe they're there, I just don't have the patience or wish to really hear them. In the meantime I have *decent* cables installed in my system just for peace of mind that I'm not really missing anything. With that I'm pretty happy.


----------



## 883dave

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Vul Kuolun* 
_IC:
 Straight wire Chorus
 Standard IC's
 Microphone cable i buy at a local store for maybe 4 or 5 $; I do the soldering myself most of the time. 

 Powerchord:
 Audio Agile, (was about 60$; today i know it's a standard cable made by a big german cablemanufacturer for industry and stuff. It sells for a fractional amount of what i payed for)
 Standard stuff

 Speakercables:
 Various DIY concepts: braided, "abused" industry type cable, standard speaker cable with 1,5 an 2,5mm2

 Power-strip:
 DIY- modified, power conditioner included (DIY)
 Standard, not too ugly type of thing


 I heard differences back in the days, when i wished to hear them. Today i don't.

 Today, i'm just glad i survived the suicidal DIY experiments with 220V and didn't burn the house down.




 You know, sometimes i think maybe one day patrick82 is coming back to HeadFi slipping in my clothes. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But first, i'm waiting on the guys to tell me unless a cable costs 100$, it isn't worth a thing. But the point is, i know how expectation can change the sound.
 How about you?

 BTW, i do definetly not wanna be perceived as a troll. As there were some serious points in the last posts, let me tell you it's not my goal to get on anybodys nerves. Doesn't change my views though._

 

Thanks for the post

 I have tried lots of different cables in my system (mostly speaker rig, as I am fairly new to headphones) and have found differences in some cables, and price has had nothing to do with it. 

 Why would I only hear differences in some cables and not all?

 Could audible differences be due to pre-conceived notions??? 

 At this point in my experience I would have say it's an almost, absolutely, just about positive, quite certainly, maybe,..... no. 

 At one point I went to my dealers and came home with 3 cables, all relatively high priced, and did not hear a difference.
 I went back a few months later and brought back several more, in this batch there was one set of cables that made me smile, my listening enjoyment went up. I switched the cables in and out of the system over the next several weeks (also had my girlfriend switch them) and always enjoyed the sound of my system more with that cable in the loop.

 So today I have my entire system connected with these cables.
 Do they still make a difference today??? I have not tried switching them out since. All I know is that I fully enjoy sitting in my chair listening to my favorite music.

 I wonder if "synergy" has anything to do with it?

 I must say that cables were just about the last component in my system, and they have made the LEAST AMOUNT OF DIFFERENCE, they never changed things from night and day. The upgrade that has had the most audible improvement to me has been a phono cartridge.

 To me this is a strange hobby. I have a friend who is also an audiophile, we get into it on ocassion about different sounds in audio reproduction, we usually pull the trump card which is "I guess that you hear differently than I do"

 As for changing someones views....never....sharing experiences...you bet!!!!


----------



## Electro Point

I've listened with stock interconnections up to entry-level "audiophile" and I do hear a difference. Just is that there is a certain extent you should upgrade to and the cables will be transparent in your setup. Like my setup would not benefit anymore with $150 RCA interconnection then it would with a good solid $80 cable.

 Also other factors would concern the improvement with cables, such as if your upgrading to higher-end speaker wires you have to keep in mine if internally your speakers are wired with good cables or else won't make that much of a difference.


----------



## chrisco

Sennheiser 595s
 Sony NW-HD1
 Little Dot Micro +

 I listened with the supplied interconnect and enjoyed everything.

 I then bought and listened to the same equipement via an AudioLineOut solid silver mini to mini interconnect and the difference was STAGGERING!!!!!!

 It is like I have a far superior amp and headphones, everything and I do mean everything has imporved- bass, mids, highs the flippin works.

 Thanks again Ken Yippee!!


----------



## TKO

Head-Fiers,

 what I find most interesting about these discussions (before they degenerate into personal attacks, that is) is the lack of any scientific or experimental proofs into the phenomen. Surely, one would think that this would be easily measurable n'est-ce pas?  

 What science has demonstrated, unequivocally, is that when a person physically sees the source of the sound (e.g. based on blind speaker testing research conducted at the National Research Council of Canada's laboratory by the acclaimed Dr. Floyd Toole) there is a psychological reaction. E.g. in blind-versus-sighted tests. These results were presented to the Audio Engineering Society (in 1994) and the conclusion stated:  Quote:


 "when listeners knew what they were listening to, the opinions were dictated more by the product identity than by the sound... That an effect of this kind should be observed is not remarkable, nor is it unexpected. What is surprising is that the effect is so strong, and that it applies about equally to experienced and inexperienced listeners." 
 

 Google the National Research Council, Dr. Toole etc. and you might find some interesting articles on their experiments into psychoacoustics etc.

 The one key difference between speaker testing and headphone "testing" is that the headphone listener is not subjected to reflections and out-of-phase signals as occurs in a normal listening environment. 

 Perhaps some of you will find this interesting... Perhaps not.

 Cheers.


----------



## neilvg

They won't fix a system that is already mismatched to begin with. If you like the sound you are getting, cables can refine it.

 You can basically get 'technically perfect' cables for very cheap. Check out Belden for example. What high end cables do, as others have said, is color the sound. This can be good, especially if you value a highly Euphonic system, tailored to suit your tastes. 

_Also, you need a system that has sufficiently high enough resolution to really "hear" all the differences. I think a lot of people may be trying aftermarket cabling without first getting some things straight. BEFORE anyone should be changing any cables, first become VERY VERY certain of what the particular signature of your equipment is (in a sum total). If you play any CD, generally, you should be able to hear some artifact of what your system 'sounds' like. Even in the most resolving systems. The very lack of signature is also a signature._

 In my system, I can hear the difference between burning CD's on certain Media versus others (especially when using different burning modes, like the Yamaha CDR-F1 Mastering Burn (with wider divots) for example).

 Also, at some point you have to realize, while some people may just be 'psychologically' upgrading certain high-end cables, others truly do hear a difference. Not everyone has the same level and quality of hearing.

 Neil


----------



## chrisco

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *TKO* 
_Head-Fiers,

 what I find most interesting about these discussions (before they degenerate into personal attacks, that is) is the lack of any scientific or experimental proofs into the phenomen. Surely, one would think that this would be easily measurable n'est-ce pas?  

 What science has demonstrated, unequivocally, is that when a person physically sees the source of the sound (e.g. based on blind speaker testing research conducted at the National Research Council of Canada's laboratory by the acclaimed Dr. Floyd Toole) there is a psychological reaction. E.g. in blind-versus-sighted tests. These results were presented to the Audio Engineering Society (in 1994) and the conclusion stated: 
 Google the National Research Council, Dr. Toole etc. and you might find some interesting articles on their experiments into psychoacoustics etc.

 The one key difference between speaker testing and headphone "testing" is that the headphone listener is not subjected to reflections and out-of-phase signals as occurs in a normal listening environment. 

 Perhaps some of you will find this interesting... Perhaps not.

 Cheers._

 


 When people percieve a difference because they expect a difference that is a simple placebo effect.

 I can only speak for myself in regard to a simple change in interconnect in headphone and amp listening and people I have conducted a little test with. 

 I can say that I expected at most a small change in the sound quality and bought the interconnect because the one originally supplied was simply too long and twisted. Given I did not expect an improvement it is unlikely to be a placebo effect. Yet I was staggered by how much better my new interconnect was.

 I asked five people to listen to my set-up with the old interconnect and the new interconnect. I did not allow those people to view which interconnect was connected at any given listen and each person was asked to listen to identical music from an identical start point for 30 seconds. There were four listens per person two with each interconnect.

 Results

 The AudioLineOut Solid silver mini to mini was stated as being a better quality sound every single time by all five people.

 10-0 was the result on a blind test with five different people- one was someone with tin ears!!

 I do not think this was the placebo effect.

 Whether the set-up I have allows for such a difference that is far greater than that usually seen, whether it is something more prevalent with headphones with headphone amps etc I have no idea and cannot say.


----------



## dura

On a dutch board we had this fellow who was absolutely sure it was all imagination; he poisoned every cable treat with telling people they were imagining things, and challenged everyone for a double blind test. Finally some people agreed, negotiating that he would leave if they could distinguish between 3 interconnects.
 They could very significantly in a blind test.

 I've got two very different cables here; an audioquest coral, shielded, solid core copper, and a DIY with eichmann plug, braided, solid core silver with teflon. 
 If you would not hear the difference between these cables on your own gear you would be deaf or need new stuff.

 But different is not better, and more expensive is not better.


----------



## Black Stuart

I vote a definate YES and this from someone was a total skeptic until very recently.

 Dura - there is a nederlander who uses the handle KlausB and there is a thread on the Vinyl Engine about PCs and he says "I don't trust my own ears" - this is crazy. he buys on measurements - well who the hell is listening to the music - the measuring equipment.

 I have recently used a new i/c, which is commercial and not expensive and a homebrew PC, which I used to use connected to a PSU (for my CDP) but which now powers my new h/amp - BadaPH12.

 In both cases the difference was a shock, a very positive shock. On another thread (PCs') markl has pointed out what many have said that it is'nt always the most expensive which give the best result and of course there is that alchemist's word - synergy.

 Others have rightly said that it takes a certain level of quality of equipment before the cable differences become apparent.

 I normally make all my own i/cs and PCs' and would urge others to do the same. Let's face it all different types of materials can be purchased and this is much easier for those in North America.

 Without wishing to hijack this thread but I am about to order some bulk wires and would appreciate the opinions of others re. silver plated copper v copper.
 Who has experienced differences with these materials and what were they - or should I start a new thread - I think it's important.

 Stuart


----------



## Riboge

Duro and chrisco, thank you so much for reporting those convincing demonstrations of hearing differences made by cables serving the same function and all basically well-made. To any reasonable person, I say, those reports establish that there is a difference between at least some cables that can be discerned by at least some people in conditions that reduce or eliminate the role of motivation or suggestion. It only takes one person distinguishing blindly and repeatedly the difference between two cables to prove that cables CAN sound different. What you cited goes well beyond that.

 It doesn't prove that all cables differ or that all people can distinguish ones that are different, or that the difference is important or better or worth any particular amount of money. It just should end assertions that adequately constructed cables of different makes can not sound different and therefore one can say they do not sound different in any given case without even listening to them.


----------



## lini

I've mostly tried different rca/rca, rca/mini and mini/mini interconnects in the moderate price range - both ready made ones (from companies like Öhlbach, Vivanco, Goldkabel, Tech+Link, Monster, Cordial...) and diy constructions (using several different RG series and antenna coax cables...). To my ears, some make a slight difference. But it's really very small - especially compared to the differences one can hear between different loudspeakers, headphones, phono cartridges et cetera, but also compared to the fluctuations of my hearing ability over the day and my listening mood. And even if I hear (or believe to hear 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





) a difference, I often enough have a hard time to reach a verdict about the better & worse. And of course it also depends on the rest of the equipment - e.g. turntable & cdp owners might find that different ics from table to phono stage have a bigger impact than from cdp to amp...

 Greetings from Munich!

 Manfred / lini


----------



## chrisco

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Black Stuart* 
_I vote a definate YES and this from someone was a total skeptic until very recently.

 Dura - there is a nederlander who uses the handle KlausB and there is a thread on the Vinyl Engine about PCs and he says "I don't trust my own ears" - this is crazy. he buys on measurements - well who the hell is listening to the music - the measuring equipment._

 

Having not been to the toilet for a few hours I nearly pizzled myself when I read that….hilarious. You can’t trust your ears only equipment based measurements Haha

 Given that your ear is the end of the line in terms of dealing with amplified waves- or sounds Haha if he likes what he hears but the measurements don’t stack up does he say to himself that his ears are wrong and choose equipment that is more distasteful to his ears because COMPUTER SAYS- YES.

 Can we apply the same to taste?

 So if you don’t like the taste of Brandy but it is expensive and you prefer the taste of beer do you only give yourself Brandy?

 If you can’t individually choose your own taste, aural pleasure, preferences in literature/movies .women etc what is the point in having your own senses? Is beauty in the eye of the beholder? COMPUTER SAYS- NO Haha Amazing…

 What is the point in being who you are if you deny what it is that makes you that!

 I tell you what I don’t ****ing trust his judgment his intellect, his logical reasoning and perhaps his sanity. I must say if I had his senses I’d go off measurements as well- so come to think about it he is completely right. He should go and read off all the ****ing measurements and graphs that equate to all the pleasures and experiences in his life and snuff his own wick. 

 But Synergy Dura?

 Never heard of the theory, I hope you have a pie chart to back this up?


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Riboge* 
_Duro and chrisco, thank you so much for reporting those convincing demonstrations of hearing differences made by cables serving the same function and all basically well-made. To any reasonable person, I say, those reports establish that there is a difference between at least some cables that can be discerned by at least some people in conditions that reduce or eliminate the role of motivation or suggestion. It only takes one person distinguishing blindly and repeatedly the difference between two cables to prove that cables CAN sound different. What you cited goes well beyond that.

 It doesn't prove that all cables differ or that all people can distinguish ones that are different, or that the difference is important or better or worth any particular amount of money. It just should end assertions that adequately constructed cables of different makes can not sound different and therefore one can say they do not sound different in any given case without even listening to them._

 

I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realise that what you heard is not what I meant. Richard Nixon. Haha

 Kidding- things that are worded too precisely often sound almost beyond comprehension, IKEA furniture instructions, detailed directions etc.

 I agree with everything you have said.



 P.S

 I’m off to watch a TV program because the ratings are just peachy, who knows if gay becomes the statistical norm maybe I’ll just have to get into new equipment 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 worse still I might have to start actively listening to Kenny G and jiving in elevators if a decimal place shifts…..


----------



## bigshot

It's amazing that the results from DOCUMENTED double blind tests differ so greatly from these ANECDOTAL single blind ones. It's also amazing how fast certain posters will accept the results of these informally conducted, anecdotal tests when they coincide with their own belief, and vehemently reject differing results obtained from carefully controlled, documented testing. Why no complaints about testing parameters now?

 If I put an underline under the word "hoodoo" does it make it more self evident to reasonable people?

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## philodox

Wow man, when you talk in CAPS it really drives the point home. Doesn't make you sound like an ass at all! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I have yet to see a meaningfull well documented double blind test that relates to any cables which I have experience with. I'm sure you have a list of fun links hidden away in your Bookmarks. Care to share?

 It's amazing to me that people would blindly believe what someone else has written rather than actually trying something themselves and forming their own opinion. And I believe you are the gentleman that has never sampled a high end source, yet believes *sources* don't make a difference? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ...but perhaps we should save that for another thread.


----------



## bigshot

I've been working in audio recording and post production for over 20 years. I've worked with a wide variety of pro grade equipment. You must be thinking of someone else.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## 883dave

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *philodox* 
_It's amazing to me that people would blindly believe what someone else has written rather than actually trying something themselves and forming their own opinion. And I believe you are the gentleman that has never sampled a high end source, yet believes *sources* don't make a difference? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

No I think this is the man that believes one of the most important parts of picking a good CD player is the remote control.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
_Look VERY carefully at the remote control and try it out before you buy. Most CD players have remotes that are completely infuriating to use... one button will do seven different things depending on what "mode" you are in. Look particularly for remotes that have the buttons you use frequently (ie: play, pause, stop, scan forward/back) separate from the rest in a place where your fingers can find them in dim light. This is my prime consideration when buying a CD player any more.

 See ya
 Steve_


----------



## Vul Kuolun

I know of 2 veeery anal designed blind tests made at a german hifi forum, test-setups were made conjointly between believers and skeptics. Results were absolutely contrary to the ones posted above.

 Reading posts like "haha they don't trust their ears, do they choose their women after measurements haha" tell me the real trenchline lies in self assessment, and the value one admits to the fact that human perception is everything but objektive.

 I just can not understand the complete lack of self criticism showing in the majority of posts on the subject.

 Of course do i not trust my own ears, when doing a comparison. Do you think, if i made a test today (and there was a "real" difference), i would hear it? Even if i told you that i was really skeptic about my own belief that there is no difference?

 I don't know about you, but everytime i try new gear, or another speaker placing, EQ-setting, etc, i'm hoping it will make difference/ improvement. Otherwise, i (and you) wouldn't try it. Don't you find it hard sometimes to isolate real improvement from the desire to have an improvement? Do you really believe, that knowing about the effects of wishful thinking, placebo, whatever you wanna call it, does protect you from undergoing this effects?

 Are some here really naive enough to believe that beeing skeptic about something does prevent your brain from affecting your perception?

 BTW, i'm not at all as sure as you might think because of my previous postings that cables make no difference. I'm just wondering why there's so little skepticism at all in the believers camp, unless it realy goes into absurdity like brilliant pebbles. I mean, when we buy a new car, vacuum cleaner, or whatever, we look at was the seller has to say, and if it makes sense. If there's obviously no data to back the sellers revolutionary(!) statements up, we usually get very critical. Why is hifi and esp. cables such an exception? How many threads are here about relabeled standard cables?

 To come to an end, i think the discussion is totally missing something: The fact, that if it really is true that reasonably designed cables used in a reasonable surrounding (esp. input- and outputimpedances) sound different is either aREAL BIG DEAL in psycho- and/or electroacoustics. It tells nothing less than there is a real huge gap in what we know today about perception of sound and electricity. 

 The fact, that only sellers or people not familiar with the amount of knowledge already available in these territories devote themselfes to these phenomenons (and most of the time, heavily neglecting possible reasons acounted in the testperson itself) tells me more than any test, regardless of the results.


----------



## bigshot

The ergonomics of remote controls has gone downhill lately. Anyone with a recent electronic device that uses a remote will attest to the complete lack of logic of the placement of the buttons and the complexity and non-intuitiveness of menu options. I have remotes where the same button does three completly different things depending on what "mode" the remote is in. This lack of design can make a cd player irritating to use. I don't know what that has to do with the way wires sound, but it's certainly true.

 There seem to be three or four people whose egos give them problems with my posts. I'm simply stating opinions and giving supporting arguments to back them up. You should try to relax and not get so emotionally involved with discussions in internet chat boards.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Vul Kuolun* 
_I'm just wondering why there's so little skepticism at all in the believers camp, unless it realy goes into absurdity like brilliant pebbles._

 

The poll on Brilliant Pebbles is running 50-50, tied over whether they make a difference or not. That should tell you something about the folks who participate in these polls.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## PhilS

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
_The poll on Brilliant Pebbles is running 50-50, tied over whether they make a difference or not. That should tell you something about the folks who participate in these polls.
_

 

 That last statement doesn't make much sense to me. YOU participated in THIS poll, so what does it say about you? Also, many participants in this poll said they don't hear differences in cables, so what does the tally in the Brilliant Pebbles poll say about them? I can't really see the connection. Futhermore, even if you cahnge the focus of your comment to "affirmative respones" as opposed to "participation," I'm not sure what your basis would be for drawing a conclusion regarding affirmative responses in both polls, even if you could match up in some statisticallly signficant way the persons who provided the affirmative responses. Maybe I'm missing something, but you are frequently quite critical of what others say in terms of the logical bases for the statments they make, and yet you often make statements like the foregoing that seem to bear little relation to logic. But again, maybe I'm missing something, or maybe you just meant the comment as another gratuitous insult?


----------



## 883dave

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
_The ergonomics of remote controls has gone downhill lately. Anyone with a recent electronic device that uses a remote will attest to the complete lack of logic of the placement of the buttons and the complexity and non-intuitiveness of menu options. I have remotes where the same button does three completly different things depending on what "mode" the remote is in. This lack of design can make a cd player irritating to use. I don't know what that has to do with the way wires sound, but it's certainly true.

 There seem to be three or four people whose egos give them problems with my posts. I'm simply stating opinions and giving supporting arguments to back them up. You should try to relax and not get so emotionally involved with discussions in internet chat boards.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

Just letting people who could be influenced by these posts know the beliefs of people who make there opinions appear as fact

 Edit...P.S. How does a good ergonomic remote control sound?


----------



## Asr

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *TKO* 
_Head-Fiers,

 what I find most interesting about these discussions (before they degenerate into personal attacks, that is) is the lack of any scientific or experimental proofs into the phenomen. Surely, one would think that this would be easily measurable n'est-ce pas?  

 What science has demonstrated, unequivocally, is that when a person physically sees the source of the sound (e.g. based on blind speaker testing research conducted at the National Research Council of Canada's laboratory by the acclaimed Dr. Floyd Toole) there is a psychological reaction. E.g. in blind-versus-sighted tests. These results were presented to the Audio Engineering Society (in 1994) and the conclusion stated: 
 Google the National Research Council, Dr. Toole etc. and you might find some interesting articles on their experiments into psychoacoustics etc.

 The one key difference between speaker testing and headphone "testing" is that the headphone listener is not subjected to reflections and out-of-phase signals as occurs in a normal listening environment. 

 Perhaps some of you will find this interesting... Perhaps not.

 Cheers._

 

When I have my GS-1 back from HeadAmp, I plan to conduct a formal experiment on the differences between cables, and cable burn-in as well. The dual inputs will make testing easy to do. Since my Arcam has two pairs of analog outputs, I'll be able to hook one Radio Shack-grade IC on one and my Silver Resolution Analog (or altenately my Analog Two) to another, and with the GS-1 I'll be able to flip between them instantly. As for the burn-in test, well I recently got another Silver Resolution Analog, hasn't even been opened yet. My current one has over 300 hours on it. Looking forward to finding out if cable burn-in really exists... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I'm sure there are those who would criticize me for not running such a test as DBT, but believe me, I'm a skeptic through and through. Initially I never believed in burn-in, but I've come to accept it - I just need to hear a change with my own ears, however subtle it might be. I try to be very hard on my ears - there are times where I'm not sure what I'm listening to, so I listen to it again and again, and then again. As many times as I need to in order to make sure there's a difference, otherwise I don't believe there's a difference. I triple-check my own hearing at all times to make sure I'm not hearing placebo - I'm against the concept of placebo. I'm a very scientific kind of person and I always run self-tests on myself to really make sure that I'm hearing what I'm hearing. You could say that to an extent, I don't trust my ears. Definitely not the first time anyway. There's a balance of belief and doubt involved in hearing cables and burn-in that a lot of people seem to forget about. You can't completely believe it, because the brain tends to make real what it's believing. And you can't completely doubt something either, that would just be rejecting hard core evidence if there's hard core evidence to support an argument.


----------



## 883dave

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Vul Kuolun* 
_I know of 2 veeery anal designed blind tests made at a german hifi forum, test-setups were made conjointly between believers and skeptics. Results were absolutely contrary to the ones posted above.

 Reading posts like "haha they don't trust their ears, do they choose their women after measurements haha" tell me the real trenchline lies in self assessment, and the value one admits to the fact that human perception is everything but objektive.

 I just can not understand the complete lack of self criticism showing in the majority of posts on the subject.

 Of course do i not trust my own ears, when doing a comparison. Do you think, if i made a test today (and there was a "real" difference), i would hear it? Even if i told you that i was really skeptic about my own belief that there is no difference?

 I don't know about you, but everytime i try new gear, or another speaker placing, EQ-setting, etc, i'm hoping it will make difference/ improvement. Otherwise, i (and you) wouldn't try it. Don't you find it hard sometimes to isolate real improvement from the desire to have an improvement? Do you really believe, that knowing about the effects of wishful thinking, placebo, whatever you wanna call it, does protect you from undergoing this effects?

 Are some here really naive enough to believe that beeing skeptic about something does prevent your brain from affecting your perception?

 BTW, i'm not at all as sure as you might think because of my previous postings that cables make no difference. I'm just wondering why there's so little skepticism at all in the believers camp, unless it realy goes into absurdity like brilliant pebbles. I mean, when we buy a new car, vacuum cleaner, or whatever, we look at was the seller has to say, and if it makes sense. If there's obviously no data to back the sellers revolutionary(!) statements up, we usually get very critical. Why is hifi and esp. cables such an exception? How many threads are here about relabeled standard cables?

 To come to an end, i think the discussion is totally missing something: The fact, that if it really is true that reasonably designed cables used in a reasonable surrounding (esp. input- and outputimpedances) sound different is either aREAL BIG DEAL in psycho- and/or electroacoustics. It tells nothing less than there is a real huge gap in what we know today about perception of sound and electricity. 

 The fact, that only sellers or people not familiar with the amount of knowledge already available in these territories devote themselfes to these phenomenons (and most of the time, heavily neglecting possible reasons acounted in the testperson itself) tells me more than any test, regardless of the results._

 

Are you saying that even when you do note differences in things you do not trust it unless there is verifiable proof to back up the difference?

 And are you saying that you now just take everything in audio on face value, the sound that you hear is the best that it can be, any change that you may perceive is just your ears and brain playing tricks on you?

 Do you also believe that if I produced a great number of "tests" that people were able to pick out wires 99.99% of the time you would then believe?

 I have to wonder if you are here as an audiophile or just for the debate and arguments.


----------



## JaZZ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Vul Kuolun* 
_I just can not understand the complete lack of self criticism showing in the majority of posts on the subject._

 

That's just because you think self-criticism autmatically leads to the same attitude as yours. I consider myself very self-critical in terms of audio and perception, yet every time I listen critically to my various cables, I get the confirmation that I was right: they sound different, and they show a constant characteristic. No doubt about it.

  Quote:


 _...when we buy a new car, vacuum cleaner, or whatever, we look at what the seller has to say and if it makes sense. If there's obviously no data to back the seller's revolutionary(!) statements up, we usually get very critical. Why is hifi and esp. cables such an exception?_ 
 

They're just as little an exception as other audio gear, such as CDPs, DACs, amps, headphones and speakers. I don't think many people are that much interested in what the seller has to say. The main and often only criterion is how it sounds to their ears. If they don't have access to the gear they're interested in, they possibly rely on a few reviews from people who have heard it. Or they buy it with a money-back guarantee. 

  Quote:


 _To come to an end, i think the discussion is totally missing something: The fact, that if it really is true that reasonably designed cables used in a reasonable surrounding (esp. input and output impedances) sound different is either a REAL BIG DEAL in psycho- and/or electroacoustics. It tells nothing less than there is a real huge gap in what we know today about perception of sound and electricity._ 
 

Since many years people hear sonic differences with amps (and AFAIK you're one of them), although the differences can't be measured. And nobody has complained about the so-called gap so far, not even the skeptics. 

  Quote:


 _The fact, that only sellers or *people not familiar with the amount of knowledge* already available in these territories devote themselves to these phenomenons (...) tells me more than any test, regardless of the results._ 
 

That's a very bold statement. So either you know all people devoting themselves to the cable phenomenon or you conclude that a missing theory is binding to a «science believer» that he must not hear differences.

 I have successfully passed a cable blind test myself, so I trust the above statements. It's important to be familiar with the setup (and the acoustics in the case of speakers), a fact that's most likely not been respected in 99% of the «valid» (= failed) tests you have in mind. Futhermore, as Hirsch has stated in an earlier post, a chaotic pattern of samples is useless, since it doesn't represent a real-life condition and overstrains the brain -- and that's too often used.

 I wonder how a skeptic like you would evaluate a guitar or a piano. A normal human being would do it by using his own pair of ears. But I'm sure there are measuring criteria especially developed for skeptics who don't trust their own ears. Or maybe there are instrument shops with dark rooms for blind tests? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



.


----------



## philodox

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
_I've been working in audio recording and post production for over 20 years. I've worked with a wide variety of pro grade equipment. You must be thinking of someone else._

 

Strange, I distinctly remember having a discussion with you about this on here. I don't have the best memory though, so I may be wrong. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
_There seem to be three or four people whose egos give them problems with my posts. I'm simply stating opinions and giving supporting arguments to back them up._

 

Did you ever give thought to the possibility that it could be your ego that is the problem?


----------



## Vul Kuolun

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JaZZ* 
_That's just because you think self-criticism autmatically leads to the same attitude as yours. I consider myself very self-critical in terms of audio and perception, yet every time I listen critically to my various cables, I get the confirmation that I was right: they sound different, and they show a constant characteristic. No doubt about it._

 

That's what i call lack of self criticism.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JaZZ* 
_They're just as little an exception as other audio gear, such as CDPs, DACs, amps, headphones and speakers. I don't think many people are that much interested in what the seller has to say. The main and often only criterion is how it sounds to their ears. If they don't have access to the gear they're interested in, they possibly rely on a few reviews from people who have heard it. Or they buy it with a money-back guarantee._

 

To be more precise: It's about the seller tells you why you should pay him 200 Bucks instead if 20. This is what seperates the fair offer from the rip off.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JaZZ* 
_Since many years people hear sonic differences with amps (and AFAIK you're one of them), although the differences can't be measured. And nobody has complained about the so-called gap so far, not even the skeptics._

 

It's not about complaining. It's about estimating the importance of the phenomenon, and if the actual situation does leave the slightest hint of plausibility to it.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JaZZ* 
_That's a very bold statement. So either you know all people devoting themselves to the cable phenomenon or you conclude that a missing theory is binding to a «science believer» that he must not hear differences._

 

It's about the question where the research on the issue is, an how many *professionals* (Music-/ Soundpeople, EE´s, Scientists) work on the issue or bother at all with it. And no, i don't count the sellers/manufacturers in here.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JaZZ* 
_I have successfully passed a cable blind test myself, so I trust the above statements. It's important to be familiar with the setup (and the acoustics in the case of speakers), a fact that's most likely not been respected in 99% of the «valid» (= failed) tests you have in mind. Futhermore, as Hirsch has stated in an earlier post, a chaotic pattern of samples is useless, since it doesn't represent a real-life condition and overstrains the brain -- and that's too often used._

 

I find that one quite interesting, while it leaves the question open why there's such a huge gap in the estimation of the effects, showing in the fact that every slight bit of stress scares away the night and day differences. But the most important conclusion for me is: 

 The changes are evidently so small, they're far beyond a dimension worth discussing about. When a mood swing changes the result, oh well. For me, that is.
 I would like to read statements like this in the threads where the noob asks which cable he should use to make his 650 brighter.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JaZZ* 
_I wonder how a skeptic like you would evaluate a guitar or a piano. A normal human being would do it by using his own pair of ears. But I'm sure there are measuring criteria especially developed for skeptics who don't trust their own ears. Or maybe there are instrument shops with dark rooms for blind tests? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



._

 

That one is so poor. It definetly is beneath your dignity. And it isn't even funny.


----------



## PhilS

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Asr* 
_ There's a balance of belief and doubt involved in hearing cables and burn-in that a lot of people seem to forget about. You can't completely believe it, because the brain tends to make real what it's believing. And you can't completely doubt something either, that would just be rejecting hard core evidence if there's hard core evidence to support an argument._

 

 You make a very good point, which I would like to add to. I am a believer AND a skeptic, i.e., I don't believe it until I hear it, and even then, I am constantly reconsidering the issue, trying to eliminate the "placebo" factor, etc. And, like most "believers," I was a died in the wool skeptic who thought cables could not possibly make a difference -- but then I was converted when the differences I heard under certain circumstances were too hard to ignore. 

 I am also a skeptic in other ways. I don't believe that more expensive cables always sound better, as I have found in some instances that the less expensive cable sounds better. And sometimes, I don't hear differences between certain cables, or between certain types of cables in certain applications. I also think the "science" is worthy of serious consideration on this issue, and testing, if done properly, has value. But in the end, I must -- with the appropriate amount of skepticism -- trust what I hear. And I'm very confident that some cable differences are quite noticeable (e.g., the differences between the stock HD 650 cable and the Silver Dragon are quite noticeable to me.)

 In any event, what is rather remarkable is that all of us "believers" get portrayed as if we have been predisposed to "believe" the moment we came out of the womb (as if we have some genetic deficiency or lack of immunity to "snake oil" syndrome), or we are portrayed (implicitly if not explicitly) as if we have checked our reason at the door anytime we listen to a cable. There certainly may be some folks like that among the believer camp who may be willing to believe anything. But it's not fair to assume that all of "us" or even most of "us" are like that, anymore than it would be fair to assume that all skeptics are egotisitical dogmatists who just troll these threads to make insults, merely because there may one or two who do that.


----------



## JaZZ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Vul Kuolun* 
_That's what i call lack of self criticism._

 

I knew it!

  Quote:


 _To be more precise: It's about the seller tells you why you should pay him 200 Bucks instead if 20. This is what seperates the fair offer from the rip off._ 
 

I wouldn't pay 200 if it sounds like worth 20 to my ears, independent of the seller's comments or justifications. I'm an adult person.

  Quote:


 _It's not about complaining. It's about estimating the importance of the phenomenon, and if the actual situation does leave the slightest hint of plausibility to it._ 
 

I thought pausibility is dictated by psycho- and electroacoustics (= hard data), not device category. 

  Quote:


 _It's about the question where the research on the issue is, an how many *professionals* (Music-/Soundpeople, EEs, Scientists) work on the issue or bother at all with it. And no, i don't count the sellers/manufacturers in here._ 
 

You use an arbitrarily narrow definition. I'm sure many of the people who work in the cable business have a deep understanding of electroacoustics (and this certainly applies to many audiophiles). But since you exclude cable manufacturers from the «professionals», it's probably indeed a rare case to see professionals bother with audiophile cables -- they have other work to do. 

  Quote:


 _I find that one quite interesting, while it leaves the question open why there's such a huge gap in the estimation of the effects, showing in the fact that every slight bit of stress scares away the night and day differences._ 
 

Cables don't make night-and-day differences. Those are reserved to sound transducers (and room acoustics). And since these are the weakest link in the chain, they make it hard to notice the much finer upstream differences as long as you're not familiar with them. 

  Quote:


 _The changes are evidently so small, they're far beyond a dimension worth discussing about._ 
 

It's not up to you to decide that for other people. But it's alright if you personally don't care -- it's not necessary for enjoying music reproduction on a nevertheless high quality level.
.


----------



## Vul Kuolun

.


----------



## eyeteeth

Quote:


 I wonder how a skeptic like you would evaluate a guitar or a piano. A normal human being would do it by using his own pair of ears. But I'm sure there are measuring criteria especially developed for skeptics who don't trust their own ears. Or maybe there are instrument shops with dark rooms for blind tests? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 

 Quote:


 In any event, what is rather remarkable is that all of us "believers" get portrayed as if we have been predisposed to "believe" the moment we came out of the womb (as if we have some genetic deficiency or lack of immunity to "snake oil" syndrome), or we are portrayed (implicitly if not explicitly) as if we have checked our reason at the door anytime we listen to a cable. 
 

Is everyone offended yet? Offended and so defensive they can't think straight. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Bigshot says things that go against the grain of most members and he doesn't put it gently either (he's the Darth Vader of audiophilia?). I had a disagreement with him over the sonic differences of 16/44 vs 24/192 (post #38 The debate ending on page 3) but rather than exhaust myself in a war of words I hit the gear to learn if there was anything to learn. Nothing definitive was proven to me but I approached with an open mind and my position was much less confident. 


 Yeah it's an ego thing alright. I'm just glad I don't feel the need to be right and need for someone else to be wrong.


----------



## PhilS

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *eyeteeth* 
_Bigshot says things that go against the grain of most members and he doesn't put it gently either (he's the Darth Vader of audiophilia?)._

 

 As long as he doesn't turn to me one day and say: "No, Phil, _I_ am your father."


----------



## chrisco

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
_It's amazing that the results from DOCUMENTED double blind tests differ so greatly from these ANECDOTAL single blind ones. It's also amazing how fast certain posters will accept the results of these informally conducted, anecdotal tests when they coincide with their own belief, and vehemently reject differing results obtained from carefully controlled, documented testing. Why no complaints about testing parameters now?

 If I put an underline under the word "hoodoo" does it make it more self evident to reasonable people?

 See ya
 Steve_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *philodox* 
_Wow man, when you talk in CAPS it really drives the point home. Doesn't make you sound like an ass at all! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I have yet to see a meaningfull well documented double blind test that relates to any cables which I have experience with. I'm sure you have a list of fun links hidden away in your Bookmarks. Care to share?

 It's amazing to me that people would blindly believe what someone else has written rather than actually trying something themselves and forming their own opinion. And I believe you are the gentleman that has never sampled a high end source, yet believes *sources* don't make a difference? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ...but perhaps we should save that for another thread._

 

If either of you heard my equipment with a simply blind test with the two different interconnects you would be embarrassed as to how obvious the difference is. I am not talking for anyone else or any other equipment I am talking about the fact that with my equipment 5 people have via blind tests noticed the difference in SQ and identified which interconnect was which- post test……even someone with tin ears.

 Given how blatantly obvious this difference is you are either calling me a liar or you have to accept that perhaps you just haven’t heard the difference that can/some times can be heard on certain equipment. 

 There is no in-between option here.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
_I've been working in audio recording and post production for over 20 years. I've worked with a wide variety of pro grade equipment. You must be thinking of someone else.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

I don’t give a rats ass- you haven’t tested the same equipment as me.

 I tell you what I will list the equipment and let you big shots go and get it and test it for yourself…..OK?

 Sony Atrac player NW-HD1
 Little Dot Micro + (100 hours play) normal gain
 Sennheiser 595s (150 hours play)

 The interconnects are

 A) the one that comes with the Little Dot Micro plus from DavidZ

 And B) the solid Silver mini to mini line-out cable from AudioLineOut.

 All listening done via the Line-Out option.


 Now guys if you want to be big shots- buy the darned equipment and do the exact same blind testing before affectively saying I am wrong/a liar.

 Fair enough right?


 I am not saying that you MUST have heard a difference between interconnects, you are the ones trying force you BS by saying that I MUSTN'T have heard a difference with my equipment even though you have never heard it and I have…..that is arrogant crap!!!



  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Vul Kuolun* 
_I know of 2 veeery anal designed blind tests made at a german hifi forum, test-setups were made conjointly between believers and skeptics. Results were absolutely contrary to the ones posted above._

 

I am not interested.

 I am not trying to tell you, you are wrong. You are on the other hand trying to tell me I am wrong. But I have listened to my equipment and you haven’t. I invite you to take the same test and go and buy the same equipment and do the blind tests for yourself.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Vul Kuolun* 
_Reading posts like "haha they don't trust their ears, do they choose their women after measurements haha" tell me the real trenchline lies in self assessment, and the value one admits to the fact that human perception is everything but objektive._

 

I love the way that you haven’t even understood the nature of the criticism that I made. You have simply taken the criticism out of context. You have read the title of the thread and in a half baked manner half read my post/scanned it at speed. If you take the time and go back you will find that my criticism of that individual did not relate to the title of this thread but was in fact a far more general/side criticism.

 You talk about objective tests and the need for them. I was not referring in my criticism of the above individual about objective testing. I was criticizing someone who buys gear based upon measurements as opposed to his own listening preferences- end of story.

 So having corrected you on that I’ll move on to your point about objective blind testing and also my reasoning for buying the interconnect I have- because you haven’t properly read what I wrote.

 I stated that I bought the interconnect because;

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *chrisco* 
_the one originally supplied was simply too long and twisted. Given I did not expect an improvement it is unlikely to be a placebo effect. Yet I was staggered by how much better my new interconnect was._

 

Now you tried to say that I expected a big improvement in SQ hence my reason for buying the cable…..maybe you should read posts?

 Next regarding objective blind testing you say;

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Vul Kuolun* 
_I just can not understand the complete lack of self criticism showing in the majority of posts on the subject.

 Of course do i not trust my own ears, when doing a comparison. Do you think, if i made a test today (and there was a "real" difference), i would hear it? Even if i told you that i was really skeptic about my own belief that there is no difference?

 I don't know about you, but everytime i try new gear, or another speaker placing, EQ-setting, etc, i'm hoping it will make difference/ improvement. Otherwise, i (and you) wouldn't try it. Don't you find it hard sometimes to isolate real improvement from the desire to have an improvement? Do you really believe, that knowing about the effects of wishful thinking, placebo, whatever you wanna call it, does protect you from undergoing this effects?

 Are some here really naive enough to believe that beeing skeptic about something does prevent your brain from affecting your perception?

 BTW, i'm not at all as sure as you might think because of my previous postings that cables make no difference. I'm just wondering why there's so little skepticism at all in the believers camp, unless it realy goes into absurdity like brilliant pebbles. I mean, when we buy a new car, vacuum cleaner, or whatever, we look at was the seller has to say, and if it makes sense. If there's obviously no data to back the sellers revolutionary(!) statements up, we usually get very critical. Why is hifi and esp. cables such an exception? How many threads are here about relabeled standard cables?_

 

Firstly I have already explained that the criticism is a separate issue that you have taken out of context due to a poor reading of my post. But more importantly I said this;

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *chrisco* 
_I asked five people to listen to my set-up with the old interconnect and the new interconnect. I did not allow those people to view which interconnect was connected at any given listen and each person was asked to listen to identical music from an identical start point for 30 seconds. There were four listens per person two with each interconnect.

 Results

 The AudioLineOut Solid silver mini to mini was stated as being a better quality sound every single time by all five people.

 10-0 was the result on a blind test with five different people- one was someone with tin ears!!

 I do not think this was the placebo effect.

 Whether the set-up I have allows for such a difference that is far greater than that usually seen, whether it is something more prevalent with headphones with headphone amps etc I have no idea and cannot say._

 


 So objective blind testing has been done with this equipment and the results were so obvious, beyond coincidence and without possible error or prior knowledge that the results at least in this instant were conclusive.

 Now don’t lecture me about the need to be objective when I have been objective, don’t dredge up out of context criticisms because you are too lazy to read and don’t have the arrogance to tell me I am wrong when I have at the very least conducted objective blind tests with this equipment and you have never listened to it.

 Like I say I am not telli8ng you or other people that you must have heard differences in the set-ups you have had……do not tell me that I and the people I know could not hear a difference in objective blind testing without having purchased and conducted the same testing….

 Extend me the ****ing courteously of actually accepting what I say until such time as you have tested the same equipment in the same manner…..again fair enough right?


 OH and can anyone else who thinks they're a smart ass buy the same eqipement and do the same objective blind testing also before suggesting I am an R S Hat.....fair enough?


----------



## Davesrose

this poll seems a bit biased to me.....I'm one of those that float in the middle....for digital connections, I don't think there's a difference at all. For analogue connections, I would say that the cable need only be as expensive as to have proper shielding. So I voted yes for that. All this cold treated hooby jadoob....if you want to spend hundreds on that, suit yourself. That's where I think there's more difference in source equipment. Granted I haven't listened to those $900 interconnects, but I probably won't be listening to the equipment that could discern those differences in quite some time.....if ever!


----------



## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Asr* 
_I'm sure there are those who would criticize me for not running such a test as DBT, but believe me, I'm a skeptic through and through. Initially I never believed in burn-in, but I've come to accept it - I just need to hear a change with my own ears, however subtle it might be. I try to be very hard on my ears - there are times where I'm not sure what I'm listening to, so I listen to it again and again, and then again. As many times as I need to in order to make sure there's a difference, otherwise I don't believe there's a difference. I triple-check my own hearing at all times to make sure I'm not hearing placebo - I'm against the concept of placebo. I'm a very scientific kind of person and I always run self-tests on myself to really make sure that I'm hearing what I'm hearing. You could say that to an extent, I don't trust my ears. Definitely not the first time anyway. There's a balance of belief and doubt involved in hearing cables and burn-in that a lot of people seem to forget about. You can't completely believe it, because the brain tends to make real what it's believing. And you can't completely doubt something either, that would just be rejecting hard core evidence if there's hard core evidence to support an argument._

 

Same with me. If it was placebo it should have worn off by now. 
 After an upgrade I have never really been impressed on the first listen, I'm the most impressed after a week or two when I have listened to many albums and hear more detail in every album.


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Vul Kuolun* 
_I find that one quite interesting, while it leaves the question open why there's such a huge gap in the estimation of the effects, showing in the fact that every slight bit of stress scares away the night and day differences. But the most important conclusion for me is: 

 The changes are evidently so small, they're far beyond a dimension worth discussing about. When a mood swing changes the result, oh well. For me, that is._

 

Audiophilia is like a sport where you need to be consistent for music to sound the same every time you listen. You need the same sitting position, breathing, heart beat, clothes, food, ambient temperature etc. Everything needs to be the same. Since nobody is perfect you need to go through all the variables and it takes a few weeks to get used to an upgrade. It could be confused with burn-in since after a while you notice it sounds better. Speaker users need longer "mental burn-in" than headphone users since they don't sit in the sweet spot every time. 

 If you look at your cables everytime you listen then you will associate the sound with the image. Change the sound but keep the same cable and you wouldn't notice until a few days later. They made a test.
 The only way a blind test can be effective is if you always listen to your system blindfolded and critically while there's a tv camera recording everything you do. Audiophiles who enjoy music never do that.

 For a newbie the differences are so small that they most likely can't even hear it. I couldn't hear a difference with my first two purchases (source and amp). But I decided to keep on going instead of turn into a skeptic.


----------



## hciman77

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *chrisco* 
_So objective blind testing has been done with this equipment and the results were so obvious, beyond coincidence and without possible error or prior knowledge that the results at least in this instant were conclusive._

 

That would be good enough as long as the level matching was consistent and there was no significant difference in signal attenuation between cables as even a 1db difference is detectable and the tester gave no unconscious cues as to which was which. However that would consistitute a pretty good test.


----------



## chrisco

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Asr* 
_When I have my GS-1 back from HeadAmp, I plan to conduct a formal experiment on the differences between cables, and cable burn-in as well. The dual inputs will make testing easy to do. Since my Arcam has two pairs of analog outputs, I'll be able to hook one Radio Shack-grade IC on one and my Silver Resolution Analog (or altenately my Analog Two) to another, and with the GS-1 I'll be able to flip between them instantly. As for the burn-in test, well I recently got another Silver Resolution Analog, hasn't even been opened yet. My current one has over 300 hours on it. Looking forward to finding out if cable burn-in really exists... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I'm sure there are those who would criticize me for not running such a test as DBT, but believe me, I'm a skeptic through and through. Initially I never believed in burn-in, but I've come to accept it - I just need to hear a change with my own ears, however subtle it might be. I try to be very hard on my ears - there are times where I'm not sure what I'm listening to, so I listen to it again and again, and then again. As many times as I need to in order to make sure there's a difference, otherwise I don't believe there's a difference. I triple-check my own hearing at all times to make sure I'm not hearing placebo - I'm against the concept of placebo. I'm a very scientific kind of person and I always run self-tests on myself to really make sure that I'm hearing what I'm hearing. You could say that to an extent, I don't trust my ears. Definitely not the first time anyway. There's a balance of belief and doubt involved in hearing cables and burn-in that a lot of people seem to forget about. You can't completely believe it, because the brain tends to make real what it's believing. And you can't completely doubt something either, that would just be rejecting hard core evidence if there's hard core evidence to support an argument._

 

ASR

 My blind testing was very basic. I had the equipement in front of me and told people to close their eyes which they did and then I played one peice of music for 30 seconds and changed only the interconnect. I alternated which interconnect I used first and there was no change in amp level or anything else..

 All I asked people was, what is the better SQ.

 The result from the testing of five people twice tested with each interconnect was 10-0 in favour of one particular interconnect.

 If you couldn't hear the differences how was the result 10-0 from blind testing.....suggestion couldn't even have played a part as I was silent after initial instruction and between changes of interconnects and like I say what was connected first or second on differing occasions was alternated.

 The only way people could have come to this conclusive position would be through a VERY unlikely coincidence. I am SO certain that if I got another 100 people that blind testing would continue in this vein that I am saying to people.....go get the equipement and do the tests for yourself.....such is my confidence in such basic objective blind testing and the difference in SQ between these cables.

 I know you were not saying otherwise...I just though that this manner of testing might be of interest.


----------



## philodox

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *chrisco* 
_If either of you heard my equipment with a simply blind test with the two different interconnects you would be embarrassed as to how obvious the difference is._

 

I think you misunderstood my post, as I do think that some cables sound different.


----------



## chrisco

Well not being dogmatic I am willing to accept my faux pas and apologise. I wonder if other people in this thread are capable of such.


----------



## philodox

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
_I've been working in audio recording and post production for over 20 years. I've worked with a wide variety of pro grade equipment. You must be thinking of someone else._

 

I *knew* it was you.

 Please examine the following few posts: 
One | Two | Three | Four [I'm sure there are more, but I don't have _that_ much free time. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




]


----------



## eyeteeth

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PhilS* 
_As long as he doesn't turn to me one day and say: "No, Phil, I am your father." 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	








_

 

Then you find out he truly is evil; he's a high-end cable maker himself who is so confident in the unfailing fallibility of human nature that for perverse entertainment he contributes as a naysayer in cable threads! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 If I were a cable maker and knew that my $200, $500, $5000 cable consistently scored higher than lower priced ones in public listening tests, I'd be including those results in my advertising.

 I can only draw negative conclusions for consumers as to why cable manufacturers are unwilling to be more generous with information. (If this were of importance like medical equipment rather than audio there'd be an investigation). Why aren't they doing blind tests? Surely they'd rather I buy their $1000 model over their $200 model. Are they at home online right now laughing at us?

 From a practical viewpoint, I hope, I'll use external cabling of a similar quality as is used within my components. What do engineers of amplifiers think of the cable wars?


----------



## 883dave

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* 
_Speaker users need longer "mental burn-in" than headphone users since they don't sit in the sweet spot every time._

 

Patrick, 

 I have to disagree with this statement.

 Every audiophile that I know has a dedicated listening enviroment if not a room.

 Some of us (ok me 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ) are actually anal enough to put tape with graduations on the floor, not just for speaker placement but also for listening chair placement, so as the exact position can be monitored.


----------



## gsansite

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* 
_Audiophilia is like a sport where you need to be consistent for music to sound the same every time you listen. You need the same sitting position, breathing, heart beat, clothes, food, ambient temperature etc._

 

I know I said I wouldn't post in this thread, however this is hillarious.

 Patrick I think you may be alone on this one. I enjoy music, it's nothing like a sport for me.


----------



## PhilS

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *eyeteeth* 
_I can only draw negative conclusions for consumers as to why cable manufacturers are unwilling to be more generous with information. (If this were of importance like medical equipment rather than audio there'd be an investigation). Why aren't they doing blind tests? Surely they'd rather I buy their $1000 model over their $200 model. Are they at home online right now laughing at us?
_

 

There are many, many other instances where competitive products are not directly compared in advertisements. For example, there is no denying that golf balls play differently, yet you don't see lots of ads extolling blind tests of golf balls by golfers of varying abilities to measure distance, accuracy, feel, etc. Does that suggest that they all play the same and golfers are all being duped? If I think about it, I can probably come up with many other examples -- the golf ball analogy just popped into my head because that's one of the other things I like to do. 

 The fact is that it is fairly common for vendors not to directly compare their product to a competitive product, or to advertise tests versus competitive products in a test. I'm sure those with marketing experience could explain all of the many reasons for this. But the point is that the mere fact that cable vendors don't conduct and prepare blind tests and directly compare their products against the competition does not really say much, given that this is a common practice for many, many other industries. In fact, not making such direct comparisons is the norm, rather than the other way around.

 EDIT: Another example from the audio world is speaker manufacturers. Why don't they do blind tests to show their speaker sounds best?


----------



## hciman77

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *chrisco* 
_I asked five people to listen to my set-up with the old interconnect and the new interconnect. I did not allow those people to view which interconnect was connected at any given listen and each person was asked to listen to identical music from an identical start point for 30 seconds. There were four listens per person two with each interconnect._

 

The AudioLineOut cable is six inches long - how long is the original interconnect. Blind AB testing does show a big difference in performance for Video cables based solely on length, as the cable gets longer i.e 12 foot or more the perceived performance becomes clearly degraded. I dont know if that holds for audio cable, probably to a lesser extent due to the smaller bandwidth, though I notice a clear volume drop adding a headphone extension cable (12ft ).


----------



## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gsansite* 
_Patrick I think you may be alone on this one. I enjoy music, it's nothing like a sport for me._

 

In another sport I tweak my stick so I can stroke it smoother and more relaxed. I fine tune the thickness and weight for better stick and ball impact, the tip of my shaft is important too so I need to roughen it up. I also need to polish my stick for smoother stroking action, but after a while it gets too wet so I just use a towel now.
 In audio I tweak my system so I can hear it better. It's the same thing.


----------



## Vul Kuolun

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PhilS* 
_There are many, many other instances where competitive products are not directly compared in advertisements. For example, there is no denying that golf balls play differently, yet you don't see lots of ads extolling blind tests of golf balls by golfers of varying abilities to measure distance, accuracy, feel, etc. Does that suggest that they all play the same and golfers are all being duped? If I think about it, I can probably come up with many other examples -- the golf ball analogy just popped into my head because that's one of the other things I like to do. 

 The fact is that it is fairly common for vendors not to directly compare their product to a competitive product, or to advertise tests versus competitive products in a test. I'm sure those with marketing experience could explain all of the many reasons for this. But the point is that the mere fact that cable vendors don't conduct and prepare blind tests and directly compare their products against the competition does not really say much, given that this is a common practice for many, many other industries. In fact, not making such direct comparisons is the norm, rather than the other way around._

 

How much is the pricerange for golfballs? For Audiocables, i'd estimate maybe 1000%;

 If a cheap golfball is 1$, a better one is 2 or maybe 5$, what would you expect from a golfball for 200$ or 2000$? If the seller told you, that the 200$ Ball finds the hole itself, but there's no logical explanation and no proof to it, would you buy it? Would't you ask for a statistic to confirm the claim? Does that make you a skeptic?

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PhilS* 
_EDIT: Another example from the audio world is speaker manufacturers. Why don't they do blind tests to show their speaker sounds best?_

 

Do i tell you somehing new if i tell you that the discussion isn't about "which cable sounds best". ? That it's about if they change sound at all?

 But if you really like to know: Because it's almost childishly easy to measure differences between them, and to make correlations between the measurements and the perceived soundsignatures. This is, as far as i know, impossible until today for cables. That's what makes it come under suspect of beeing snake oil. And it's the reason why one should get critical when a vendor starts telling you imprecise pseudo technical mumbojumbo or tries to skip this discussion by offering "Why don't you just ty for yourself? Sure, you'll see..."


----------



## Elephas

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Davesrose* 
_this poll seems a bit biased to me.....I'm one of those that float in the middle....for digital connections, I don't think there's a difference at all. For analogue connections, I would say that the cable need only be as expensive as to have proper shielding. So I voted yes for that. All this cold treated hooby jadoob....if you want to spend hundreds on that, suit yourself. That's where I think there's more difference in source equipment. Granted I haven't listened to those $900 interconnects, but I probably won't be listening to the equipment that could discern those differences in quite some time.....if ever!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Biased? It's a simple question with a yes or no answer. What would be a less biased way of phrasing the question?

 I think cable differences can be as significant as source differences.

 I use $900 interconnects, and would rather I didn't. The money could've gone to other things such as a balanced amp, which I don't have. I would be happier if all cables sounded the same; no cable debate, less gear to spend money on and everyone would use basic generic cables.


----------



## PhilS

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Vul Kuolun* 
_How much is the pricerange for golfballs? For Audiocables, i'd estimate maybe 1000%;

 If a cheap golfball is 1$, a better one is 2 or maybe 5$, what would you expect from a golfball for 200$ or 2000$? If the seller told you, that the 200$ Ball finds the hole itself, but there's no logical explanation and no proof to it, would you buy it? Would't you ask for a statistic to confirm the claim? Does that make you a skeptic?



 Do i tell you somehing new if i tell you that the discussion isn't about "which cable sounds best". ? That it's about if they change sound at all?

 But if you really like to know: Because it's almost childishly easy to measure differences between them, and to make correlations between the measurements and the perceived soundsignatures. This is, as far as i know, impossible until today for cables. That's what makes it come under suspect of beeing snake oil. And it's the reason why one should get critical when a vendor starts telling you imprecise pseudo technical mumbojumbo or tries to skip this discussion by offering "Why don't you just ty for yourself? Sure, you'll see..."_

 

Once again, you're not really responding to the precise point under discussion. You are just changing the focus of the discussion, and using extreme examples to attempt to make the same old points you have made previously. It's really difficult to have any reasonably focused discussion with you.


----------



## Vul Kuolun

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PhilS* 
_Once again, you're not really responding to the precise point under discussion. You are just changing the focus of the discussion, and using extreme examples to attempt to make the same old points you have made previously. It's really difficult to have any reasonably focused discussion with you._

 

It's the same from my perspective. Did you expand on any of my questions? I wouldn't call your last post a reasonably focused one, too.

 So, where exactly do you find the examples to extreme? Replace "golfballs" with "one meter interconnect", and there you are in the beautiful world of hifi cables.

 P.S.: If your "speaker"-argument wasn't an awkward attempt on changing the subject, i don't know.

 P.P.S.: How much more precise would you wish the answer on your poor "speaker"-example to be?


----------



## gsansite

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* 
_In another sport I tweak my stick so I can stroke it smoother and more relaxed. I fine tune the thickness and weight for better stick and ball impact, the tip of my shaft is important too so I need to roughen it up. I also need to polish my stick for smoother stroking action, but after a while it gets too wet so I just use a towel now.._

 

I find kleenex works better than towels. No need to wash them after.


----------



## hYdrociTy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gsansite* 
_I find kleenex works better than towels. No need to wash them after.




_

 

How do you fine tune the weight and thickness? Pumps only seem to work temporarily!


----------



## hciman77

I have a few questions, these are genuine questions , I am trying to get a handle on the mechanics of cable differences.

 1) A cable cannot increase the signal it can only transmit it i.e it cannot amplify it in any way ?

 2) So a cable passes a signal through hopefully with minimal signal loss ?

 3) So differences must relate in some way to the amount of signal loss ?

 4) Can a cable attenuate some frequencies more than others ?, if so how does it do that ?


----------



## warnsey

Maybe it's placebo but i always recognise more bass with copper cables as opposed to silver.


----------



## clarke68

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *hciman77* 
_3) So differences must relate in some way to the amount of signal loss ?_

 

Yup...and psychoacoustically, the frequency spectrum is relative, so an attenuation of treble can sound the same a boost in the bass.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *hciman77* 
_4) Can a cable attenuate some frequencies more than others ?, if so how does it do that ?_

 

Same way a speaker crossover does...through inductance and capacitance.


----------



## Jon L

If the rig is decent enough, the sonic difference between say, a decent all-copper IC and a decent all-silver cables (even with similar geometry, etc) should be like a fly-swatter on a fruitfly... Thwackk!


----------



## chrisco

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *hciman77* 
_The AudioLineOut cable is six inches long - how long is the original interconnect. Blind AB testing does show a big difference in performance for Video cables based solely on length, as the cable gets longer i.e 12 foot or more the perceived performance becomes clearly degraded. I dont know if that holds for audio cable, probably to a lesser extent due to the smaller bandwidth, though I notice a clear volume drop adding a headphone extension cable (12ft )._

 

Hicman,

 Both interconnects are of comprable lengh- about 7 inches.

 I cannot explain from a technical point of view why there is a clear difference in SQ as evidenced by conclusive objective blind testing. I can't explain why from a technical point of view why one interconnect is so obviously better/a far more compelling sound. I can only say what I am experiencing.

 I have given people an exact list of equipement that they are welcome to buy and blind test for themselves that will conclusively show other people what I am talking about. 

 The differences are so apparent that prior highs were harsh enough to prevent listening over an hour or so and now they are not. The bass has much more impact, so much so it is like listening to differing headphones.

 I am either BSing people or I am telling the truth and if I am telling the truth it at least shows that cable can make a difference given certain equipement.

 To me saying this cannot happen when it is Soooo apparent because you can't trust your own ears is like saying I can't trust my own eyes....maybe I can't see the moniter maybe I just think I can......before anyone jumps on that I point again to the objective blind testing results..

 Hey hicman I get where you are coming from because you are trying to find out why? You are trying to find out why or how SQ could change due to differing cables. I am not interesting in how or why on this issue myself- I am being a little ignorant and just happy with what I have at present in terms of SQ.

 I do wonder if the fact that the little dot micro and sennheiser are supposed be very neutral sounding and less coloured and I am listening to atrac at 256kbs allows for the differences to be heard when comparing an extreme like....cheap thin copper cable to a solid silver cable? I don't have a clue....


----------



## Vul Kuolun

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *hciman77* 
_I have a few questions, these are genuine questions , I am trying to get a handle on the mechanics of cable differences.

 1) A cable cannot increase the signal it can only transmit it i.e it cannot amplify it in any way ?

 2) So a cable passes a signal through hopefully with minimal signal loss ?

 3) So differences must relate in some way to the amount of signal loss ?

 4) Can a cable attenuate some frequencies more than others ?, if so how does it do that ?_

 


 That's what i call strikingly logical. 

 For Point 4, i've seen people mathematical more blessed than me figuring out that with extreme parameters, under disadvantageus circumstances (meaning exreme input- and outputimpedances of the used gear, which are almost excluded with modern, well constructed gear. Suspicious for having this extreme parameters are rather very old devices or exotic constructions like minimalistic valve devices) a cable can actually cause a really slight (!) roll off in highest (!) treble regions. For what i've learned so far, that should be about it.


----------



## 883dave

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *hciman77* 
_I have a few questions, these are genuine questions , I am trying to get a handle on the mechanics of cable differences.

 1) A cable cannot increase the signal it can only transmit it i.e it cannot amplify it in any way ?

 2) So a cable passes a signal through hopefully with minimal signal loss ?

 3) So differences must relate in some way to the amount of signal loss ?

 4) Can a cable attenuate some frequencies more than others ?, if so how does it do that ?_

 

THis is what I understand (please take it with a grain of salt, as by no means is it TRUTH)

 1) A cable can not improve the sound quality, it can only degrade it.

 2) The signal loss in any cable should be minimal if it is made properly ie connectors tight, cable not fraded. If a cable looses signal I would think it should be repaired or tossed

 3) Any component in the audio chain, from source to transducer will have some amount of coloration, the theory is the better the component the less the coloration, the job of a good cable is to transmit the signal with as little added coloration as possible. Therefore I believe the better the cable is the more true it is to the original signal. Also blocks EMI and FMI

 4) I have read that different material can have an effect on attenuation of certain frequencies, I think that silver wire will accentuate the upper region and copper will affect the bass. I think that this has to do with the crystalline structure of the material OFC is better that regular copper due to the length of the crystals, as the signal does not have to "hop from crystal to crystal"

 A lot of what makes a cable expensive is the man power in the manufacturing process. By using different grades of wire, dielectrics, connectors, weaving patterns, etc

 Hope this helps, and is not too far off base


----------



## digitalmind

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* 
_In another sport I tweak my stick so I can stroke it smoother and more relaxed. I fine tune the thickness and weight for better stick and ball impact, the tip of my shaft is important too so I need to roughen it up. I also need to polish my stick for smoother stroking action, but after a while it gets too wet so I just use a towel now.
 In audio I tweak my system so I can hear it better. It's the same thing._

 

You're talking about pool right, not sex? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'm sorry for this little break here, please continue with the thread.


----------



## 883dave

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *chrisco* 
_Hicman,
 I am either BSing people or I am telling the truth and if I am telling the truth it at least shows that cable can make a difference given certain equipement.

 To me saying this cannot happen when it is Soooo apparent because you can't trust your own ears is like saying I can't trust my own eyes....maybe I can't see the moniter maybe I just think I can......before anyone jumps on that I point again to the objective blind testing results_

 

Seems to me that this is akin to arguing light peacock blue with a color blind person.

 To me if you hear a difference, how can I possibly diagree. If YOU like what you hear that is all that matters.


----------



## PhilS

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *883dave* 
_To me if you hear a difference, how can I possibly diagree. If YOU like what you hear that is all that matters._

 

 We should have another poll where we ask if people like what they hear when they change cables. Then we can wait for the reponses that say: "You only _think _you like what you hear."


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PhilS* 
_maybe I'm missing something, or maybe you just meant the comment as another gratuitous insult?_

 

You can't insult an inanimate object. My scorn is directed at hideously overpriced rocks and wires. Too bad some folks take negative comments about pebbles and wires so personally. It makes it difficult for them to remain civil.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *883dave* 
_Just letting people who could be influenced by these posts know the beliefs of people who make there opinions appear as fact (SIC)_

 

Spelling, grammar and punctuation reflects on one's education as well.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *883dave* 
_Edit...P.S. How does a good ergonomic remote control sound?_

 

That depends on whether you claim to have ears capable of hearing infra-red signals.

 (I still don't know what's wrong with pointing out that most remote controls are poorly designed...)

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *883dave* 
_Are you saying that even when you do note differences in things you do not trust it unless there is verifiable proof to back up the difference?_

 

Differences should be consistent and repeatable. If they appear random and sporadic, there may be a different cause for them than the one you expect.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## hciman77

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *chrisco* 
_I do wonder if the fact that the little dot micro and sennheiser are supposed be very neutral sounding and less coloured and I am listening to atrac at 256kbs allows for the differences to be heard when comparing an extreme like....cheap thin copper cable to a solid silver cable? I don't have a clue...._

 

If the copper cable was extremely thin then it might have a measurably higher resistance. As luck would have it I have just bought a cheap portable amp that had a cheap cable with it, this cable is the thinnest thing I have seen, it is about 1/2 of the width of the cable that came with my PA2V2. I will try comparing it with my Monster Cable mini to mini Interconnect that is made from two runs of thick speaker cable and is bloody enormous.


----------



## 883dave

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
_Spelling, grammar and punctuation reflects on one's education as well.



 That depends on whether you claim to have ears capable of hearing infra-red signals.

 (I still don't know what's wrong with pointing out that most remote controls are poorly designed...)

 See ya
 Steve_

 

Sorby ta afand ya buy mi lak of adumaction...we'll tri ta doe batter in da futre

 To state that the remote control is the most important part when picking out a CD player, is a little off base, do you not think?


----------



## 883dave

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
_Differences should be consistent and repeatable. If they appear random and sporadic, there may be a different cause for them than the one you expect.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

In one sentence you have just shot down the Chaos theory...good job


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *philodox* 
_Did you ever give thought to the possibility that it could be your ego that is the problem?_

 

I try to always argue calmly, on-point. If I make a point based on observation, experience and knowledge, I expect someone who is going to argue against it to do the same with even stronger supporting arguments. That doesn't always happen. Some people feel that they need to win a debate at any cost. They resort to ad-hominem attacks, irrelevant quotes taken out of context and deliberate baiting to try to get me angry. Those are the people with ego problems, not me.

 See ya
 Steve


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## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *chrisco* 
_If either of you heard my equipment with a simply blind test with the two different interconnects you would be embarrassed as to how obvious the difference is._

 

If you're in the Hollywood area, I'd be happy to stop by for a listen.

 See ya
 Steve


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## PhilS

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
_You can't insult an inanimate object. My scorn is directed at hideously overpriced rocks and wires. Too bad some folks take negative comments about pebbles and wires so personally. It makes it difficult for them to remain civil.
_

 

What on God's good, green earth are you talking about? You said: "That should tell you something about _the folks _who participate in these polls." (Emphasis added.) That's not a comment about an inanimate object.

 Dude, you just "dance a little sidestep" every time you are exposed. Quite amusing, and at this point pretty transparent to everyone given the frequency of its occurrence.


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## chrisco

I said;

 I am either BSing people or I am telling the truth and if I am telling the truth it at least shows that cable can make a difference given certain equipement.

 To me saying this cannot happen when it is Soooo apparent because you can't trust your own ears is like saying I can't trust my own eyes....maybe I can't see the moniter maybe I just think I can......before anyone jumps on that I point again to the objective blind testing results 

 To which you say;

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *883dave* 
_Seems to me that this is akin to arguing light peacock blue with a color blind person.

 To me if you hear a difference, how can I possibly diagree. If YOU like what you hear that is all that matters._

 

Your first point is FAR from clear, your second one is abundantly so. I will comment on your second point and allow you to clarify what is in that muddy analogy.

 I agree that you cannot say whether I can hear something or not and I agree that all that matters is whether or not you like the differences that you can hear in terms of the music. 

 I do like the differences 

 For the purpose of this debate me liking what I can hear is not what matters.

 From the objective blind testing I did between two interconnects;

 Five people picked what they thought was the better SQ from multiple testing and the result showed a 10-0 preference towards one interconnect.

 That tells me that people can tell the difference between cables at least with the equipment and interconnects I have. If your analogy relates to the contrary then I would like you to explain the results of my testing. I would also like you to explain to me how when there is such a significant difference in SQ- I am not talking a small difference hear I am talking of a HUGE difference- how it is that the highs are not so much more bearable that I am able to listen to my music for hours longer at a time?

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
_If you're in the Hollywood area, I'd be happy to stop by for a listen.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

I couldn’t disagree with you more on this issue…but if I lived in Hollywood area you would be welcome mate....i’m the other side of the Atlantic though….


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## hYdrociTy

wait crisco, whats the components in the setup you are so fascinated by? my setup doesnt reveal the cable colouration as much as I would like it to.

 [EDIT] oops lol i think we are using like the same stuff lol!


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## smartins

I can say that I hear a very big difference between the cables I have (see my signature). I never thought I would notice such differences but they are in fact present and color the music on their own way.

 I'm in the process of comparing all 4 of them to note down the differences I hear and post here so that I can share and gain some input from you guys.


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## 883dave

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *chrisco* 
_I said;

 I am either BSing people or I am telling the truth and if I am telling the truth it at least shows that cable can make a difference given certain equipement.

 To me saying this cannot happen when it is Soooo apparent because you can't trust your own ears is like saying I can't trust my own eyes....maybe I can't see the moniter maybe I just think I can......before anyone jumps on that I point again to the objective blind testing results 

 To which you say;



 Your first point is FAR from clear, your second one is abundantly so. I will comment on your second point and allow you to clarify what is in that muddy analogy.

 I agree that you cannot say whether I can hear something or not and I agree that all that matters is whether or not you like the differences that you can hear in terms of the music. 

 I do like the differences 

 For the purpose of this debate me liking what I can hear is not what matters.

 From the objective blind testing I did between two interconnects;

 Five people picked what they thought was the better SQ from multiple testing and the result showed a 10-0 preference towards one interconnect.

 That tells me that people can tell the difference between cables at least with the equipment and interconnects I have. If your analogy relates to the contrary then I would like you to explain the results of my testing. I would also like you to explain to me how when there is such a significant difference in SQ- I am not talking a small difference hear I am talking of a HUGE difference- how it is that the highs are not so much more bearable that I am able to listen to my music for hours longer at a time?_

 

Sorry the first part did not make sense. I was agreeing with you.

 You said "To me saying this cannot happen when it is Soooo apparent because you can't trust your own ears is like saying I can't trust my own eyes"

 I said "sort of akin to arguing light blue peacock (maybe I should have said just blue ~ the color) with a color blind person"

 ie. how can we argue with other people's personal experiences or lack of

 I am not here to debate tests (as this is a DBT free forum). I am here to find what sounds better

 Hope this clarifies it.


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## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PhilS* 
_You said: "That should tell you something about the folks who participate in these polls."_

 

To say that this poll is not necessarily an accurate reflection of the truth because another poll of the same people going on at the same time has obviously inaccurate responses isn't an insult to anyone. It's a statement of fact.

 Ignorance isn't a sin. "Everyone is ignorant... just on different subjects." -Mark Twain

 See ya
 Steve


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## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *883dave* 
_In one sentence you have just shot down the Chaos theory...good job_

 

Are you saying that high end cables operate the way they do because of chaos theory? I like that!

 See ya
 Steve


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## PhilS

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
_To say that this poll is not necessarily an accurate reflection of the truth because another poll of the same people going on at the same time has obviously inaccurate responses isn't an insult to anyone. It's a statement of fact.

 Ignorance isn't a sin. "Everyone is ignorant... just on different subjects." -Mark Twain
_

 

Unbelievable. Do you hear the words that are coming out of my mouth? Do you hear the words that are coming out of your mouth? How about I respond in kind: "To say this poll is not an accurate reflection of the truth does not mean that the Detroit Tigers are the best baseball team of all time."


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## 883dave

Steve...

 Vul Kuolun Said “Of course do i not trust my own ears, when doing a comparison. Do you think, if i made a test today (and there was a "real" difference), i would hear it? Even if i told you that i was really skeptic about my own belief that there is no difference?”

 To which I responded “Are you saying that even when you do note differences in things you do not trust it unless there is verifiable proof to back up the difference?”

 You responded “Differences should be consistent and repeatable. If they appear random and sporadic, there may be a different cause for them than the one you expect”

 To which I responded “In one sentence you have just shot down the Chaos theory...good job”

 Then the leap was made “Are you saying that high end cables operate the way they do because of chaos theory? I like that!”

 I must confess Steve I do not know what should come next. I'm having a tough time keeping up with your logic. (May have sumthang to do wit my edumication)

 My first thought was "I like cake". Second thought was "Earth to Steve"


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## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PhilS* 
_Unbelievable. Do you hear the words that are coming out of my mouth? Do you hear the words that are coming out of your mouth? How about I respond in kind: "To say this poll is not an accurate reflection of the truth does not mean that the Detroit Tigers are the best baseball team of all time." 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

I know nothing about baseball, so I'll take your word for it.

 See ya
 Steve


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## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *883dave* 
_My first thought was "I like cake". Second thought was "Earth to Steve"_

 

I thought the left turn was taken when the chaos theory was invoked. I was having fun with the silliness of it.

 See ya
 Steve


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## 883dave

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
_I thought the left turn was taken when the chaos theory was invoked. I was having fun with the silliness of it.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

So you are actually saying that you hear differences in all the cables you have tried. I knew it!


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## philodox

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
_Some people feel that they need to win a debate at any cost. They resort to ad-hominem attacks, irrelevant quotes taken out of context and deliberate baiting to try to get me angry. Those are the people with ego problems, not me._

 

Oh man, you are such a drama queen. Take my posts for what you will. I'm not going to allow you to work me into a frenzy again with your arrogant and condescending "calm, on-point observations". I guess your "experience and knowledge" are just too much for me.


----------



## chrisco

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *hYdrociTy* 
_wait crisco, whats the components in the setup you are so fascinated by? my setup doesnt reveal the cable colouration as much as I would like it to.

 [EDIT] oops lol i think we are using like the same stuff lol!_

 

Hi

 Yea my equipment is;

 NW-HD1 Atrac player- 256kps compression
 Little Micro Dot +
 Sennheiser 595’s

 The interconnects are A) the original mini to mini interconnect as supplied by Little Dot- thin copper and a solid silver AudioLineOut cable.

 The headphones and amp seem to have had enough time to burn-in.

 There is a very significant difference between the SQ from the two interconnects. 

 If someone plays 30 seconds of Black Dog or Rock N Roll by Led Zep I can tell you with my eyes shut which interconnect is which 9 times out of 10.

 It might be easier to tell the difference between these two interconnects because of the synergy of the equipment. The amp and headphone are known to be polite/neutral and the interconnects are very different from one another. 

 Given I do not know why there is significant SQ difference between the two, the above is nothing more than a possible/a theory…..speculation. 

 From your signature- our equipment is different, in fact the only thing I see that we have in common is the little dot micro+


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *philodox* 
_I'm not going to allow you to work me into a frenzy again_

 

Don't blame me for your own lack of composure.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## philodox

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
_Don't blame me for your own lack of composure._

 

I don't believe I was blaming you, merely saying that I won't allow you to put me in that state. I know that I have a short temper. Are you aware of your faults?

 EDIT: By the way, nice work using an "irrelevant quote taken out of context to deliberately bait me".


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## oicdn

I'm an ex-car audio nut, and I noticed the difference between cheap cable, Monster cable 400, to 300, to 200 series cable, to imported (from where, clueless) solid silver custom cabling done by my shop. Both varied interconnects and cabling. It's crap you do when the shop is slow, and you wanna see if there really is any difference.

 I have no idea how much of a difference there is in portable audio-which is why I have a thread asking about it, but I'm anxious. 

 I'm also not stupid. If I had to pay retail of ANY of the high-end cabling I had, there'd be no way in hell I'de pay for the uber cabling....well MAYBE, I'm anal about that kinda stuff though 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But strictly from a monetary standpoint, I think you can't go wrong with dece quality copper, as to me, it's not TOTALLY worth the difference in price.


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## buggers

best cable probbly is battery cables.. Good enough to stat car. Good for bass.


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