# I want the paradigm atoms...



## geestring

I want the atoms to be my music speakers.

 right now I have my laptop and an usb emu 0404. 

 Can that DAC power these bookshelf monitors?

 If not, can I find a really affordable receiver/amp?


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## Wodgy

That's a very good choice of speakers. Just make sure you get the most recent version of the Atoms (the ones with the waveguide tweeter and the white woofer) since they're a big improvement.

 You can't power them with your DAC. You need an amp. Pick up a used amp off of eBay... there are a ton of good deals on good old stuff there now that everyone wants home theatre receivers. If you need to buy new, see if you can find a Pioneer A-35R.


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## islewind

That Pioneer has gotten a lot of mention as a great budget choice, but I've never been able to find distortion specs for it, even on Pioneer's website. 

 From ebay, a used Rotel, NAD, or Cambrigde integrated would work well for you.


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## Wodgy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *islewind* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That Pioneer has gotten a lot of mention as a great budget choice, but I've never been able to find distortion specs for it, even on Pioneer's website. 

 From ebay, a used Rotel, NAD, or Cambrigde integrated would work well for you._

 

It's almost impossible to find proper distortion measurements for most amplifiers. THD+N is a meaningless figure because it doesn't weight the harmonics for audibility (see the work of Geddes, among many others) and doesn't reflect low power performance. Stereophile does publish a proper set of measurements but they rarely review budget gear.

 I can say that I owned the A-35R and the NAD C320BEE at the same time and the A-35R had superior sound. You can find full measurements for the NAD's bigger brother, the C370, online and the higher-order distortion performance is poor by my criteria, as are the measurements at low output levels. I have no doubt the C320BEE had similar issues, contributing to its audible inferiority.

 The A-35R incidentally uses the same circuit board layout as a lot of amps from the late-90s, suggesting that a lot of manufacturers got their class AB amps from the same OEM. These days I actually use a Yamaha RX-770 as my main speaker amp, and though it is a higher power design, you can tell the OEM/designer was the same one who did the A-35R just by comparing the boards. This is not a bad technical design. The output transistors are even mounted on separate heatsinks, preventing thermal crosstalk, unlike most NAD integrateds.

 Just because an amp is from an "audiophile" manufacturer (NAD, Rotel, Creek, Bryston, Cambridge, etc.) or has lower THD+N specs doesn't tell the whole story about sound quality. I still wouldn't hesitate to pick up a C370 off eBay for the right price, but buying new, especially on a budget, I would choose the Pioneer over whatever NAD and some others are selling on their low end. It's a nice, solid, good-sounding amp, provided you don't need gobs of power.


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## geestring

I don't know a lot about receiver and hi-fi audio....

 but how do I connect the DAC>receiver>monitors?

 do the receivers take the patch cables?

 I have my dad's old Sony receiver from the 70's... however all I saw were wires.


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## infinitesymphony

DAC to receiver will be with coaxial RCA-RCA cables:







 Receiver to speakers will be with speaker wire:






 I own the Pioneer Elite A-35R as well and it's an excellent amplifier for the money. I had to pay quite a bit more to exceed its performance.


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## geestring

ok, even the modern receivers connect to the speakers using the speaker wires? I assumed they just used rca cables or something.

 ill try and see what model the sony receiver is... I might use it to save money.
 arent all amps from the 70's decent quality?


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## infinitesymphony

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *geestring* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_arent all amps from the 70's decent quality?_

 

No. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 There was no generation of perfect amps, though it's true that consumer amps in the '70s tended to have higher wattage ratings, since that was one of the most-discussed specifications at the time.

 It might be in need of repair. You may want to open it up to check for leaky capacitors, bad solder joints, or to see if anything has fried.


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## classicalguy

Boy was there are lot of junk in the 70s. I remember all of those big silver panels with large number of knobs. Putting nostalgia aside, low end equipment is much better sounding today than it was in the 70s. I'm amazed at how much better a t-amp sounds than the junk I used to listen to.

 I've been very impressed with the Panasonic SA-XR55 receiver with two channel music through a digital source. It would be very interesting to compare it (an all digital receiver) with the recommended Pioneer A-35R. Or how about the Trends $100 version of the T-Amp? I'd love to hear the Trends through those Paradigm Atoms.


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## yotacowboy

I've been running a pair of the v.5 atoms powered with a Trends TA10.1, fed by an Oppo 980 as a second system/HT. Couldn't be happier for the money involved. Stacks up very nicely against my main rig, but ultimately loses out on bass extension and detail.


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## Pibborando

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Wodgy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just make sure you get the most recent version of the Atoms (the ones with the waveguide tweeter and the white woofer) since they're a big improvement._

 

Why do you say that? The new monitor series, to me, doesn't sound nearly as nice as the older generations. They're bright and harsh with muddy bass.


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## classicalguy

Did you read the latest issue of stereophile? They said the v5s are lightyears better than the old atoms. I think people are posting opinions here without comparing side-by-side. Something that sounds bright in a crummy store setup is not necessarily bright.


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## yotacowboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *classicalguy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Did you read the latest issue of stereophile? They said the v5s are lightyears better than the old atoms. I think people are posting opinions here without comparing side-by-side. Something that sounds bright in a crummy store setup is not necessarily bright._

 

I compared some v.2's to a pair of v.5's. Both broken in, powered by the Trends, as well as by a PrimaLuna Prologue 1, the v.5's had better bass extension as well as better detail. The v.5's bested the v.2's by a good bit, in my opinion.


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## spacemanspliff

yeah the v.5 is a much improved little speaker. are they driven well by such a t-amp amp?


 I did score a pioneer vsx 515 and some decent boston acoustics shielded monitors for $95 total. craigslist in canada?

 what about powered monitors? 

 you can run them straight out of the sound card output.

 swan m10 or m200


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## Austin 3:16

Pioneer (Elite or not) is NOT a good match with Paradigm IMHO.


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## rsaavedra

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *classicalguy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Did you read the latest issue of stereophile? They said the v5s are lightyears better than the old atoms._

 

Did they say so? I haven't read that assessment in Stereophile.

 Here´s the Stereophile article:
Stereophile: Paradigm Atom Monitor v.5 loudspeaker

 They do mention what's new in how they are built:
  Quote:


 Bob Reina reviewed the Atom v.3 in 2002, and concluded that "the Atom smashes the low-price barrier." The v.5 is similar in that it's still a stand-mounted, two-way speaker with a rear-ported, bass-reflex design, but its cabinet, drivers, and crossover are all improved. 
 

Yet, they never compare the sound of the new model with the older Atom (As far as I've read, maybe I missed some lines.) What Stereophile does compare the new Atom with is the PSB Alpha B1, on page 2 within the Stereophile article.

 Or maybe you are referring to a different Stereophile issue, a more recent month?


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## Austin 3:16

The previous Atoms weren't a part of the Monitor line.


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## rsaavedra

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Austin 3:16* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The previous Atoms weren't a part of the Monitor line._

 

This is true. The v5 weights almost twice what the older Atom did. Yet that's beside my point. I'm challenging the claim that Stereophile allegedly had assessed the new Atoms as "lightyears better" than the older Atoms. That claim seems unfounded to me, haven't read it anywhere. If someone could back up that claim I'd appreciate it.


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## Austin 3:16

My statement was just FYI.


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## geestring

i just found my dads old receiver. 

 its the Sony STR-VX33. I can't find much information online, however the sticker on the back does say 140watts.... which should be enough to power those atoms? Btw I was surprised by its weight.

 I have a question about connecting the rca audio cables to the EMU 0404usb. The only outputs that fit a rca tip are the S/PDIF on the front. Are those the right connections?


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## geestring

ok i hooked the Rca's tot he receivers CD/AUX inputs. I'm not getting anything.


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## Dzjudz

No, S/PDIF is digital, not analog.


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## classicalguy

rsaavedra: 

 I'm not talking about the article reviewing the speakers (linked above). There was a discussion in the current issue comparing the old with the new. Unfortunately I can't find my copy of this month's edition of Stereophile to quote it for you. I probably threw it out. Anyway, in the current issue that I got a week or so ago, there was a comparison with the earlier atoms, and they said, as I recall, that the new ones bested them in every way. That's not a quote, because I can't find it, but that was the conclusion. Unfortunately I can't PROVE it to you because I can't find it, but if you buy the current edition you will see what I'm talking about and can be more specific as to what they said.


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## classicalguy

Geestring: 

 The S/PDIF connector is indeed an RCA jack, but it's for a coax RCA cable to send digital data to a digital receiver. I don't know the Sony receiver you have - it may or may not have similar coax digital inputs. If you are trying to connect the analog outputs of the 0404 to the analog inputs of the Sony, then you need to find the correct analog outputs of the 0404. If you connect the 0404's digital outputs to the Sony's analog inputs, it won't work. There should be left and right analog outputs on the 0404 and and similar left and right inputs on the Sony. They are on the bottom left of this photo.

0404 USB

 The SPDIF outputs on the top photo are digital outputs. 

 I suspect if your Sony is older (or stereo as opposed to supporting dolby digital) it won't have digital inputs.

 Are we clear?


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## rsaavedra

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *classicalguy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_rsaavedra: 

 I'm not talking about the article reviewing the speakers (linked above). There was a discussion in the current issue comparing the old with the new. Unfortunately I can't find my copy of this month's edition of Stereophile to quote it for you. I probably threw it out. Anyway, in the current issue that I got a week or so ago, there was a comparison with the earlier atoms, and they said, as I recall, that the new ones bested them in every way. That's not a quote, because I can't find it, but that was the conclusion. Unfortunately I can't PROVE it to you because I can't find it, but if you buy the current edition you will see what I'm talking about and can be more specific as to what they said._

 

Ok no wonder, it's on another issue of the mag. I knew couldn't be the other one from September. Had read that article in fact checking whether they had comments on the sound compared to the original Atoms (which they had reviewed as well.) I was disappointed to find that they hadn't compared them. 

 Will check the most recent issues to find the comments you mention. Thanks!


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## geestring

yea i just got a rca to ministereo and plugged it into the back of the emu.

 its a cheap adapter from radioshack, will it affect the sound quality? I'm also using cheap rca cables...


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## infinitesymphony

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *geestring* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_yea i just got a rca to ministereo and plugged it into the back of the emu.

 its a cheap adapter from radioshack, will it affect the sound quality? I'm also using cheap rca cables..._

 

Yes, cables have the ability to affect sound quality. Using the 1/8" stereo jack isn't the best way to output due to its small contact area, etc.

 Your best method would be to purchase or have someone custom make some 1/4" TS to RCA cables. Blue Jeans Cable could do it, someone on the DIY forums could make one, or you could build them yourself. Another alternative is to use regular RCA cables with RCA to 1/4" TS adapters.


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## geestring

so the sony strvx33 says 140watts. Enough to power those atoms?

 I see under its specs it says "Suitable Amplifier Power Range 15 - 80 watts"


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## infinitesymphony

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *geestring* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_so the sony strvx33 says 140watts. Enough to power those atoms?

 I see under its specs it says "Suitable Amplifier Power Range 15 - 80 watts"_

 

140 watts @ 8 ohms should be more than enough to power most conventional 8 ohm speakers.


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## classicalguy

It's fine to use a mini RCA to RCA. Your receiver is not ultra-high end. A better cable may make a small difference in your system, but I strongly doubt it would make a substantial difference. Of course, knowing that you're using a cheap cable v. an expensive one might make you perceive a HUGE difference, but if you did a blind test I doubt you'd notice it. I'm sure others will disagree. You've got plenty of watts. It's a question of quality, not quantity. You should have a very good quality signal coming out of that 0404 - at some point you might want to buy a good stereo amp like the $100 Trends. That would probably make for a lovely system.


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## moseboy

Hello. I really hate to wake up this thread after it looks like it's been put to sleep, but I have some questions. I have been looking at buying a small, good-sounding system for my desk for a while now. The problem is I hardly knowing anything about speakers and amps. All I know about is earphones. I have a pair of Shure SE530's, and now I want to finally buy a set of speakers that can produce as good of sound quality as they can.

 First of all, the speakers I'm looking at are the following:

 1.) Athena Technologies AS-B1.2
 2.) Axiom Audio M2 v2
 3.) Paradigm Atom Monitor v.5

 Of course, I'm willing to look at others if any of you can recommend anything else. I just want a nice set of speakers that is going to sound like my earphones, or close to it (nice, laid-back sound, but clean and clear). I know I'm not going to get the bass from any of these speakers that I do from my in-ears, but I can live with that.

 The second thing, obviously, is I'm going to need an amp. For under $200, what are some good options? If possible, I'd want one that I could eventually hook up a sub to. Again, I'm very new to this world, so I apologize for my ignorance.


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## classicalguy

Well, I've only heard the Athenas, which are not that great. Axioms have a lot of hype and fanboys, but I doubt they are that great either. The paradigms have great reviews from the high-end press, so I suspect that they are very good. Out of the three, I'd get the paradigms.


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## moseboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *classicalguy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well, I've only heard the Athenas, which are not that great. Axioms have a lot of hype and fanboys, but I doubt they are that great either. The paradigms have great reviews from the high-end press, so I suspect that they are very good. Out of the three, I'd get the paradigms._

 

At this point, the Paradigms are the most appealing to me. However, I can't find them anywhere online, and I would really like to stay away from eBay if at all possible. Where should I be looking, and if I get them, what amps should I be looking at to power them?


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## moseboy

Has anyone actually heard the Axiom Audio M2 v2? How is it compared to the Paradigm? That's the only other one I have my eye on right now.


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## spacemanspliff

Used Totem Mites are stellar speakers for around $320-360.

 The Emotiva BPA-1 is my amp currently and I am very pleased with it.






 Just put it together so I am still a long way off from finishing.


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## soundboy

What's that the Totems are resting on?


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## geestring

im still deciding if I can afford these atoms.. I think I would have gotten them a long time ago if a store had them already in stock. That way I would have them in hand. 

 But the store says it takes a day to get them from paradigm, time for buyers remorse!


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## geestring

btw, this is for a small bedroom setup, I was think about speaker stands. But cost is an issue, and the stands that paradigm have I believe are $140.

 what about speaker mounts for the wall? any cheap deals? costco?


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## Ichinichi

where did you get the bpa-1?


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## Wodgy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *moseboy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Has anyone actually heard the Axiom Audio M2 v2? How is it compared to the Paradigm? That's the only other one I have my eye on right now._

 

Despite the price similarity, the Axioms are not in the same performance category as the latest Paradigm Atoms. I'd strongly suggest the latter.


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## soundboy

geestring,

 Paradigm doesn't authorize sales of its speakers over the internet, unless you want them without the factory warranty.

 As for stands, there are plenty of sites online that sell inexpensive speaker stands. I believe Audio Advisor is currently selling some Energy speaker stands for $30.00/pair. Thinking of getting a pair for my Energy C-3s.


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## geestring

I know, I'm buying it from a store here in Toronto. but they have to be specially ordered. Which shouldn't take long, considering they're manufactured here.


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## geestring

speakers stands aren't that high, say 5'?

 if i were to put them on mounts or even a little shelf high up say, 7', would it affect the sound quality? or does it matter?


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## geestring

also is it wrong that i would buy the atoms without first hearing them... i know they're going to be good


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## Rock&Roll Ninja

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *geestring* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_also is it wrong that i would buy the atoms without first hearing them... i know they're going to be good 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

As long as you don't have unrealistic expectations for an inexpensive, small bookshelf I don't think you'll be disappointed. They (Atoms.... an older series) offered 90% of the musical performance of my PSB Platinum M2s for 1/10th of the price. (Less bass response.... and they're downright ugly compared to the awesomeness that is the PSB).


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## classicalguy

You'll get very different views on the importance of listening to speakers before buying. I am of the opinion that listening to moderate priced equipment in most stores is worthless because of the poor setup. Most stores have speakers at all different angles and heights playing through switch boxes and mid-fi receivers. They play tricks by putting higher margin speakers up high and lower-margin down low, and say "see how much better that sounds"? Levels are not matched. So it's a crap shoot. 

 It's a different story on the high end where they set things up in a lovely room, and actually move the speakers into the same spot for comparison through the same equipment. But that's pretty rare with a $300 speaker. So, I think we have to put faith in the views of owners who have lived with the products (recognizing the problem of cognitive dissonance), and the views of professional reviewers who give great information but unfortunately say positive things about everything - no point in offending potential advertisers -- and generally don't provide much helpful comparison information. 

 I have never heard the paradigms v.5, but I think it's safe to conclude from what I've read that they are well designed and well priced speakers, and among the best in class. The competition would be speakers like the PSB Alpha B1, Acculine A-1s, Epos ELS-3, maybe AV-123 XLS. I would really like to read a careful comparison between paradigm, psb and acculine. I'd recommend staying away from the acculine if you don't have a sub. But with a sub, it's an interesting option.

 So, probably not much helpful information since I haven't heard very many of the speakers, and none of them side by side, but I have do doubt that the atoms are good quality speakers. 

 At $400 the Usher S-520, the Dana 630 and the Ascend 170se are in play. I've heard the Ascends, and they sound very good. I thought they were not pretty however.


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## moseboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Wodgy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Despite the price similarity, the Axioms are not in the same performance category as the latest Paradigm Atoms. I'd strongly suggest the latter._

 

I guess I just keep hearing how good the Axioms are, and then I hear this. What really is the difference between the Axiom M2 v2 and the Paradigm Atom v5? Clarity? Accuracy?

 Also, what amp would you recommend that is cheap but still has connections for a sub and still makes the Atoms sound great (or should I be looking for something else?)


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## spacemanspliff

Op Did you know Totem is also Canadian? Please do try and listen to them. You will be amazed.

 Mine are on some rubber matting I found. Lol it is pretty good actually.


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## geestring

still deciding whats a good position for speakers. I have a bedroom with a rather large glass table. should I just put them about 100cm apart with my comp in the middle. Sort of a normal pc speaker setup?

 Or let them sit on small wall shelves that I can get from ikea behind me as I work on the computer? So essentially I wouldn't be facing the music. Would it even matter?


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## rsaavedra

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *geestring* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Or let them sit on small wall shelves that I can get from ikea behind me as I work on the computer? So essentially I wouldn't be facing the music. Would it even matter?_

 

For playback of stereo recordings through speakers, ideally you want the speakers and your head to be at the vertices of an equilateral triangle, but with the speakers in front, not behind you. This applies to near-field monitoring as well as far-field (or point-source.) Near field is when your speakers are <8' from your ears; apparently your setup will be near-field.

 The further away from the monitors you are, the more the acoustics of the room play a bigger role (e.g. the more the room colors the sound.) With near field you can easily place your head within the so called "critical distance," so that the direct soud coming from the speakers is louder than the reverberant sound coming from all the influences of your room acoustics.

 Keeping the equilateral triangle (speakers in front of you) and staying within the critical distance are ideal to minimize room colorations, achieve the best possible stereo images, and enjoy the best sound reproduction accuracy your system is capable of.







 (<--- smiles and a little know-it-all sparkle shines in his teeth 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)


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## geestring

i finally got my atoms, im setting them up as i type this.
 i got a good deal, i think. 15% off.
 the guy said he used to design for paradigm, so thats an added bonus. Having knowledgeable advice.

 I'm excited.


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## moseboy

I was browsing around the net today and a couple other speakers caught my eye: Aperion's Intimus bookshelf speakers (the 532-LR and 632-LR). Has anyone heard either of these? How do they sound/compare to the Paradigm Atoms?


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## geestring

no clue.


 i'm enjoying my speakers... however I think my receiver is too bassy.
 I really shouldnt have to manually lower the bass dial away from 0 to the negatives? 

 is it possible to get a good amp for <$100...


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## classicalguy

I LOVE my t-amps. And I have the original cheap ones. You might be able to find a Trends amp for $100 (although new retail is a bit more than that). It's a high-end version of the t-amp with better components, great build quality and good connectors. But for less than $50 you can get the old t-amp and a decent power supply. I think you might be surprised at how good it sounds. Far better than my Marantz receiver.


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## geestring

when you say t-amp you mean the one made by sonic design?

 the one that can be powered by batteries? the one that has 15 watts per channel? is that enough to turn the atoms up loud?


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## moseboy

Is it possible to connect a sub to any of these amps, or would I have to get a receiver instead? What's your recommendations?


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## classicalguy

t-amp is made by sonic impact. I believe (never tried) that it's underpowered with AA batteries. With a 12v 3 amp ps, it plays loud with all of the bookshelf speakers I've tried, including acoustic suspension which are hungrier than bass reflex (all else equal). So I think it would be fine with the Atoms. It would be good to find someone with a t-amp to try before you buy. I've been very impressed with the sound quality (as have many others). Of course there are a bunch of people on here who disagree, saying "it's bright" or "it only puts out 3 watts," bla bla bla - I wonder whether they've owned the t-amp and spent much time with it using a proper power supply. The trends is superior if you have more money to spend.

 With respect to a sub, a t-amp is an integrated amp - it has a volume control knob on it. If you have a pre-amp, you could turn the volume all the way up and use it like an amp. Run the preamp --> sub in --> sub out --> T-amp. Then you use the sub to set the cross over. If you want true bass management, then you need an AV receiver.


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## alleyezon_d

you can also find a sub with high-level inputs/outputs (speaker type inputs and outputs) which means the chain would be:

 amp (speaker out) --> sub (speaker in) --> sub (speaker out) --> Speakers

 That means double the speaker wire, but that is better as speaker wire is usually cheaper than interconnects. Cross over controls + sub volume controls on the sub would be for sub management.

 I also highly recommend NSM Model 5 speakers, cheap for the quality of sound and construction. Totally blew my paradigm mini-monitors away. If you're complaining about too much bass from the paradigm speakers and not enough resolution+imaging, these are the speakers you want.


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## moseboy

As far as the NSM Model 5, $247.50 each is a little steep for me.

 Regarding amps, what are the advantages of an amp over a receiver? If I were to eventually get a sub, I just don't yet see why I would get an amp instead of a receiver.


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## classicalguy

Using the high-level inputs is "better" because the wire is cheaper? This is head-fi. Sound quality through high-level inputs is seriously impaired.

 moseboy: amps are cleaner. They don't have all that other stuff adding noise and distortion. But all amps and all receivers are not created equal. I've been very impressed with the Panasonic sa-xr55/57 true digital receiver. It has full bass management and sounds great using the digital inputs. Analog inputs are not so good. So it depends on your source. Most inexpensive receivers sound pretty bad.


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## moseboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *classicalguy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_moseboy: amps are cleaner. They don't have all that other stuff adding noise and distortion._

 

Alright, so for driving the Paradigm Atoms, something like the T-amp would be fine?


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## classicalguy

I think so moseboy, but I don't have atoms so I can't be positive.


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## alleyezon_d

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *classicalguy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Using the high-level inputs is "better" because the wire is cheaper? This is head-fi. Sound quality through high-level inputs is seriously impaired.

 moseboy: amps are cleaner. They don't have all that other stuff adding noise and distortion. But all amps and all receivers are not created equal. I've been very impressed with the Panasonic sa-xr55/57 true digital receiver. It has full bass management and sounds great using the digital inputs. Analog inputs are not so good. So it depends on your source. Most inexpensive receivers sound pretty bad._

 

Some subs, like my own employ a HF cutoff only when using the high level inputs, and with mini-monitors that's usually better because you take away the lower freqs from the monitors for which they struggle with. If I used the low level inputs there wouldn't be that 80hz cut off and with speakers like paradigm atoms you don't want them stressing to play below that. I've done some tests on my system which is fairly modest, and high level vs low level really has no detriment either way besides the fact that high level sounds better because of the HF filter. I could maybe see your point with a more expensive system, but we're talking paradigm atoms and a "inexpensive receiver" here aren't we? Just my 2 cents, not looking to argue.


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## moseboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *alleyezon_d* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_you can also find a sub with high-level inputs/outputs (speaker type inputs and outputs) which means the chain would be:

 amp (speaker out) --> sub (speaker in) --> sub (speaker out) --> Speakers_

 

So in this setup, is this assuming the speakers are daisy chained together?


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## alleyezon_d

I don't understand what you mean by daisy chain, sorry! basically its L and R out of amp to sub, to speakers. Not sure if that's clear, I'm sure I can find a diagram somewhere online, or usually it will come with the sub's manual if it supports that.


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## moseboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *alleyezon_d* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't understand what you mean by daisy chain, sorry! basically its L and R out of amp to sub, to speakers. Not sure if that's clear, I'm sure I can find a diagram somewhere online, or usually it will come with the sub's manual if it supports that._

 

Oh, yeah. Duh, I'm stupid. For some reason, I thought the sub had mono out. Sorry.

 So which sub do you have?


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## alleyezon_d

I own a Definitive Technology ProSub 80. It's not in production anymore I don't think, and I'm not sure what it was replaced with. But I find it very good, very musical. It uses a 8" driver which allows it to keep up and be fast and I'm also surprised at how far down it reaches while still sounding good.


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## alleyezon_d

moseboy, are you located in the USA? If so, take a look at onix's x-ls. Last I know they were $200 for a pair with money back guarantee. My friend has them, and they are stellar for their price, I would say they're as good as Paradigm mini-monitors I used to have (which are a few steps above the atom). Not sure how their prices have changed since then, but check them out. AV123.com - Home


----------



## classicalguy

I don't think you can use a t-amp through the high-level sub inputs. I don't understand the problem, but I believe there is one. Here is a product that enables the use of high-level speaker inputs and discusses the problem:

T-amp subwoofer connector


 As for high v. low level, you obviously need to have a proper cutoff. But the sub manufacturers and everyone I've ever heard from who knows speaker design says to avoid using high-level sub daisy chain because it messes with the signal. This box may avoid the problem by not daisy-chaining through the sub. It's really not an ideal solution. Tamp is not made for using a sub.


----------



## moseboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *classicalguy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Tamp is not made for using a sub._

 

I just don't know what my options are then if I don't want to spend more than ~$100 on an amp alone and still be able to eventually hook up a sub to it.


----------



## moseboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *alleyezon_d* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_moseboy, are you located in the USA? If so, take a look at onix's x-ls. Last I know they were $200 for a pair with money back guarantee. My friend has them, and they are stellar for their price, I would say they're as good as Paradigm mini-monitors I used to have (which are a few steps above the atom). Not sure how their prices have changed since then, but check them out. AV123.com - Home_

 

I am in the USA. I will check those out shortly and report back. Thanks.

 EDIT: AV123.com - x-ls encore Monitor Loudspeaker

 Apparently the price went up $100 since then, now costing $300. How are they better than the v.5 Atom?


----------



## alleyezon_d

I just read your initial post, and I have to say, you're not going to get the same quality of sound from these budget monitors as you do from your Shure SE530's. I myself own a pair of Audio Techinca A900's which retail for roughly $200, and they are close to my speaker/amp setup which costs almost 10X that. So if you're looking for speakers that cost less than your IEMs that sound as good, I'm afraid you're being too hopeful. At that price range you'll get a different presentation (sound infront of you instead of sound in your head), but it definitely won't sound as good. I think the NSM Model 5's + a decent amp like a NAD C325BEE might come close, but under that price range I can't say too much.


----------



## moseboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *alleyezon_d* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just read your initial post, and I have to say, you're not going to get the same quality of sound from these budget monitors as you do from your Shure SE530's._

 

That's understandable. However, keep in mind I use my SE530's straight out of my laptop: no amp, no external sound card, and I still think it sounds great. I guess my question is, knowing that, what will I be losing the most going from my SE530's to these budget monitors besides bass?


----------



## classicalguy

"I just don't know what my options are then if I don't want to spend more than ~$100 on an amp alone and still be able to eventually hook up a sub to it."

 The ONLY decent amps I know of under $100 are t-amps. If you want a good digital receiver with bass management for a sub then you'll have to pay more. You may be able to find a Panasonic sa-xr55 for $150 - great product with digital inputs. Maybe someday we'll get some high quality digital amps with bass management under $100, but to my knowledge there are none yet.

 As for the comment about budget speakers not giving the sound quality of headphones, I have to disagree. Headphones excel at some aspects of sound quality but are terrible at others: principally soundstage and long term comfort. Overall, I think the experience of listening to a quality but inexpensive speaker system properly set-up far surpasses the experience of headphone listening. I'm sure others will disagree, but at best it is a debatable point because both have tradeoffs.

 If I were you, I would get a t-amp with a proper powersupply and enjoy the speakers. If you later need a sub, you can decide between finding a sub that will work with a common ground, buying a box that fixes the common ground issue, getting a preamp and using low level passthrough, or getting a digital receiver or different amp. We're talking about a $50 or less purchase - no point in agonizing too much over it.


----------



## geestring

how much does a "proper" supply cost? 

 is the one that comes with the trends amp sufficient?


----------



## classicalguy

Yep, the trends and the PS it comes with should be great. That looks like a really beautiful amp.

 The old T-amp did not come with a PS. I bought cheap 3a ps's from BG Micro. They don't have the same one now, but I believe this would work:

<B>PWR1246</B><BR>12V/3.33A Regulated Power Supply - PWR1246

 If you get the trends, or even the new t-amp, it comes with a PS that should be fine.

 I also used an SLA battery, which was also good (although a lot more trouble). I didn't notice any significant difference in sound quality with the SLA.

 I have not heard the trends, but it looks like a really great amp. I'd love to hear it with Paradigm Atom V5s. I think they would make beautiful music together. With a good signal, I'm betting you'll be mighty impressed.

 I have an unused t-amp sitting in the garage that I'm thinking of using in lieu of the built-in amps of my Marantz receiver. The Marantz has RCA outputs for an external amp. The Marantz amps don't sound good at all. I just moved my Panasonic sa-xr55 downstairs for my BIG speakers (and it powers them as well as my old 300 watt Adcom, which needs to go back to the shop for repair), and moved the Marantz up. I really notice a serious drop in sound quality using the Marantz's built-in amp. Harshness, lack of detail, slow sounding. So I might try the t-amp today. I'll be using the t-amp with some small floor-standing Celestion speakers. One other thing I've been thinking about is splitting the rca outs of the Marantz and using two t-amps to bi-amp the Celestions. The Celestions are bi-ampable. Only problem is I'd need another t-amp.

 Let us know what you do.


----------



## classicalguy

Just to update my last post, I was motivated to install my remaining t-amp (I don't have a power supply, so I am using an SLA battery) using the front rca outs of my Marantz amp to power my little floor standing Celestion F20 speakers. Sound quality is great - far far better than with the Marantz built-in amps. Also, the Marantz provides bass management for a sub as long as I cross over at the fixed 100 hz point. I can easily switch between small/sub and full range by using the S-Direct button which eliminates bass management and tone controls. Even though my sub is no great shakes (old Parts Express 10"), it sounds better with the sub because the low end on the Celestions is pretty bad. Also, the original T-Amp supposedly had a problem with bass. Crossed over at 100hz, I get very lovely highes and mids through the t-amp, and adequate bass response through the sub. The t-amp is really a wonderful sounding amp, and it's got plenty of power for small speakers. Those of you using typical mid-fi receivers don't know what you're missing.


----------



## moseboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *classicalguy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The t-amp is really a wonderful sounding amp, and it's got plenty of power for small speakers. Those of you using typical mid-fi receivers don't know what you're missing._

 

As long as it can drive the Atoms and I can play them loud without damaging them, then the t-amp is probably what I'm looking for. Although, "loud" is such a subjective term. I mean, with my SE530's, I can set my laptop volume to 2/25 and it's loud enough for me (4/25 if it's a quiet song). So how "loud" can the t-amp drive the Atoms within reason? Just listening level, or can I still turn up the volume sometimes? How can I tell when I'm pushing them too hard/when I'm damaging them?

 EDIT: Also, which t-amp should I be looking at? I'm seeing quite a few t-amps out there made by different companies and I'm getting confused which one we're talking about....


----------



## geestring

If anything wouldn't the atoms be underpowered by a t-amp? isnt it only 10 watts?

 i can get a tamp for $50, and a trends for $150... I probably will go for the tamp.


----------



## moseboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *geestring* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If anything wouldn't the atoms be underpowered by a t-amp? isnt it only 10 watts?_

 

That's what I'm saying. I don't want the t-amp to be subjecting the Atoms to distorted power and ruining them.


----------



## geestring

aahh. i didnt know you could ruin speakers by under powering them...


----------



## classicalguy

Yes, you can blow your tweeters if you underpower and the amp clips. When an amp clips, it spiews out distortion that can blow the speakers. So a new amp should be turned up slowly to make sure it's not clipping. 

 I've never blown a speaker. A little care goes a long way. 

 Don't let people scare you about using a t-amp. You'd need to play really loud on inefficient speakers to blow them. Of course, if the amp clips, turn it down quickly and send the amp back for a refund.

 The paradigm atoms are efficient small bookshelves with stable impedance. As I've said 5 times, I don't think you're going to have any problem powering them at ample levels with a t-amp. I have driven larger less efficient speakers without any problem.

 Watts is WAY over-rated. Advent (circa 1979) made some very inefficient LARGE bookshelf speakers with large woofers, and designed a 15 watt amp to drive them. 15 good watts is a lot - to get double the output you'd need 100 watts. 50 watts is not 3 times as much as 15. It's just a little more. So try it. Turn up the volume slowly to make sure it's not clipping - clicking and distorting. I'm pretty sure that any of the t-amps with a proper power supply will run your paradigms a lot louder than you want to listen to them before clipping.

 There are a bunch of people posting tests of the t-amp's output, and saying it's less than 15 watts. Their methods may be accurate, but would cause ALL amp specs to be a lot lower. Personally, I take amp specs with a big grain of salt. Unlike speaker measurements, most of the stuff published about amps can't be heard and so is irrelevant. And what is relevant is often over-stated - kind of like gas mileage on a new car. Not all watts are created equal. Some amps have headroom for musical peaks, and others don't and clip easily. THD is a perfect example. Every crappy mid-fi receiver brags about low THD numbers (.0000000000001%), yet who cares. It's inaudible. Great sounding mega-buck tube equipment has high THD. There are many kinds of distortion in amps that aren't measured. I've concluded that you can't tell how an amp will sound by the published specs.

 Now, your last question is which one to get. The original sonic impact t-amp and the new v.2 are cheap, but use cheap connectors. The v2 comes with a power supply, the v1 didn't. I have 4 of the v1s that I use on computer desktop systems (and now one on my floorstanders). They all sound incredibly great. They have also been surprisingly reliable. I have had no problem with any of them, even though they are dirt cheap toy-build quality. I can't say the same for the two expensive amps I have. I have an Adcom 585 that cost over $1,000. They used defective capacators that leaked toxic juice and caused shorts. It cost me $125 to repair, and is still not working right. I have a Hafler DH-200 that needs to be serviced (and requires long warmup before sounding good). These chip amps have few parts to break, and they are much cheaper to run - they run cool. These chip amps are cleaner and quieter than any of the other amps I've used, and also sound very musical and natural.

 Sonic impact also makes a Super T with better parts and connectors, for double the price of the v2. I doubt the sound is significantly different, but may be slightly improved.

 The Trends is a really nice T-amp made in China with top quality parts and connectors. I'd get this one over the super T - it's improved and higher quality. I think they run about $150, so it's about 3x the price of the V2, and 5 x the price of the V1. It's worth it, but it's in a different class because of the cost.

 There are some other new amps using the transmeta chip, and more powerful versions of the chip, and some class D chip amps using other chips. Maybe the thing to do is get the cheap one and see what you think. In a couple of years there are going to be lots of improved choices, and you will have spent all of $50 to get great sound out of your speakers. I'm hoping you throw caution to the wind, spend the $50 and report back. I think you'll be as impressed as I have been with the sound. When you're ready to buy a sub, you can decide to buy a new amp and will likely have more choices. You can use your old t-amp for desktop duty or something else.


----------



## moseboy

Thank you so much for writing all of that, classicalguy. I agree with everything you said: I'll just buy a cheap, great-sounding amp for now and wait until I get more speakers. _Then_ I'll decide which amp/receiver to invest in that can drive them.

 At this point, these are the four amps I'm considering:

 1.) The Sonic Impact Class T Digital Amplifier Gen 2 (Sonic Impact Technologies - Class T Digital Amplifier Gen 2)
 2.) The Sonic Impact 5066 15-Watt Portable Class-T Digital Audio Amplifier (Amazon.com: Sonic Impact 5066 15-Watt Portable Class-T Digital Audio Amplifier: Electronics)
 3.) The Trends TA-10 Class-T Stereo Audio Amplifier (http://www.trendsaudio.com/EN/Product/TA-10_desc.htm)
 4.) The AudioSource Amp 100 2-Channel Power Amplifier (Amazon.com: AudioSource Amp 100 2-Channel Power Amplifier: Audiosource: Electronics)

 So looking at these (and others like it), which do you think sounds/performs the best?


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## classicalguy

The audiosource is not a chip amp. It's class ab and decidedly mid-fi. Scratch it off your list. I don't know if you can still get an old t-amp (no 3). Amazon doesn't have them anymore.

 You can get the gen 2 (no1) for $50 at Partsexpress.

Parts Express:Sonic Impact 5065 Gen 2 T-Amp with Power Supply

 No 3 is the best quality, but 3x the price. It's a question of how much you want to spend.


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## moseboy

Yeah, I can't even find where the Trends amp is sold right now much less how much it costs....

 How does the Gen 2 compare to the Trends? Is it even close? Is there another amp out there that I'm missing?


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## alleyezon_d

I haven't heard the AudioSource amp, but why should it be crossed off the list just because it's not a chip amp?


----------



## moseboy

I'm not sure, obviously I haven't heard it either. I assume it doesn't sound as good because I haven't heard much about it and didn't even know about it until yesterday, but I could be completely wrong.


----------



## moseboy

Haha.... I'm all concerned about which amp to get and I'm first going to the store to check out the Paradigm Atoms tomorrow.


----------



## geestring

my t-amp 2nd gen is coming in the mail tomorrow 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 so we'll see how it pairs up with the atoms.


----------



## moseboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *geestring* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_my t-amp 2nd gen is coming in the mail tomorrow 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 so we'll see how it pairs up with the atoms._

 

Please, _please_ share your findings 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.

 Do you have Atom v.5's?


----------



## classicalguy

"I haven't heard the AudioSource amp, but why should it be crossed off the list just because it's not a chip amp?"

 There are hundreds of options for cheap class a/b amps. Cheap class a/b amps don't sound good, but have been the only options until the recent introduction of great sounding chip amps. Chip amps are in the process of revolutionizing the industry, imo. They sound great - like (and in some ways better) than the best a-b amps, are more efficient with electricity, and are cheaper to build and buy. I would not buy a cheap class a/b amp when there are far better sounding chip amp alternatives. I have heard the audio source, and it sounds like a budget receiver, although the build quality may be a bit better. That's why I suggested crossing it off the list. I don't know what more to say about this.

 I am looking forward to a review of the paradigm atom v5s with the new t-amp v2. I suspect it will sound very good. 

 I'm interested in getting some new bookshelf speakers, and the Paradigms are on the list. There is competition in the category from PSB, AV123, Ascend, Usher, Celestion, Acculine and others. I find it hard to choose, because there are few direct comparisons being made by independent and capable people.


----------



## moseboy

Well, I went out and ordered my Paradigm Atoms in rosenut today. I was able to hear them in the store and I was very, very impressed. The bass was incredible. I seriously had to ask the guy showing them to me, "Is there a sub hooked up to this system?" and his response was "Haha.... Nope. We get asked that a lot when we demo this speaker." It didn't go down extremely deep, but as far as it did go down, it was so tight and clear that I didn't care about the frequencies I wasn't hearing. However, I don't think the amp in the Sony receiver he had it hooked up to was all that good. It just wasn't very revealing and I could clearly tell that the Atoms had much more potential than the amp was showing me.

 So those will be delivered next week, but I still need something to drive them once they arrive. geestring: No pressure, but I would really like to hear what you have to say about the T-amp Gen 2 paired with the Atoms before I make a final decision on which amplifier I will get. And if anyone else has experience with this amp or others combined with the Atoms, your comments would be greatly appreciated.

 Thanks


----------



## classicalguy

Great Moseboy. Hopefully we'll all hear from geestring shortly after the amp arrives.


----------



## geestring

hehe, i got it and ive been using it all day. If you couldn't tell before I'm new to hifi audio. Therefore you shouldnt base your decision on my impressions.

 It's definitely an improvement over my old sony receiver. What I like is the cleaner/toned down bass compared to the sony. 

 Depending on the track that is being played, I find the bass still somewhat distracting. Maybe it is the song? I can imagine it being even more irritating with the volume turned up... "bbbbbphhhhhhhh!" 

 It seems more detailed, but that could be attributed to the bass.

 I haven't turned it up extremely loud, however I got it to relatively loud levels without any noticeable power issues like clipping.

 Hopefully I can make a more accurate review as time passes and I am able to use other amps to compare.

 Overall I'm glad I purchased this amp. Price was right and it is aesthetically pleasing, especially compared to my sony tank that had to be put on the floor.


----------



## moseboy

First of all, what I'm about to say is not pointed towards anyone, especially you geestring. I really appreciate you posting your findings for us and I hope you will continue to do so as you discover more with passing time.

 But at this point, I'm at square 1. I've been reading reviews and comments about amps, especially the Sonic Impact T-amp Gen 2 all night (probably a mistake). I've come across everything:

 "It's nice, but why not just spend 20 dollars more and get twice the power?"
 "What a ripoff, just get the first generation version for half the price."
 "_BUY IT!!_ It's such a steal! It's so cheap and it sounds amazing!"
 "Don't even bother, just buy something refurbished."

_What??_

 Am I overreacting? Absolutely (kind of just how I am). But I hate throwing around money (I'm a college student and I love audio: Bad combination). I just spent nearly $300 on a pair of speakers: I researched them, I asked about them, I heard them in person and was impressed. I know this was a good purchase for me.

 And now I have to buy an amp and I just have no idea what to look for, and that's probably the worst part. Like I know earphones really, really well. But that's it. So I'm relying on the experience of others at this point.

 I'm probably just going to order the Gen 2 out of pure frustration and just hope it's a good decision, but if anyone has any better alternatives for me at this point, please let me know.


----------



## HiWire

Let us know how the combo works out... I thought about getting Paradigms and the T-Amp as well.


----------



## Wodgy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *moseboy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Am I overreacting? Absolutely (kind of just how I am). But I hate throwing around money (I'm a college student and I love audio: Bad combination). I just spent nearly $300 on a pair of speakers: I researched them, I asked about them, I heard them in person and was impressed. I know this was a good purchase for me._

 

Seriously, just get a credible used amp on eBay. That way you won't feel pressured into the T-Amp range because of your limited budget. There are plenty of excellent deals on older, conventional stereo amps these days... amps with very credible performance by any measure.


----------



## moseboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Wodgy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Seriously, just get a credible used amp on eBay. That way you won't feel pressured into the T-Amp range because of your limited budget. There are plenty of excellent deals on older, conventional stereo amps these days... amps with very credible performance by any measure._

 

I just wouldn't know what to start looking for or what a good deal would be, but I might take a look at it. I'm still sort of holding out on the fact that the Gen 2 and the Atoms could make a good pair. But I'll see. I would like to hear a little more from geestring first.


----------



## spacemanspliff

i just got a gen 2 and like it fine. no way you can get a better amp for $50 lol. it has a decent headphone amp too. detail is great and bass is ok if a bit rolled off down low.


----------



## classicalguy

There is no audio product that everyone agrees on. And unfortunately lower priced products tend to have fewer really professional reviews. 

 But some of the quotes you posted are obviously from people who don't know very much. For example, "why not just spend $20 more for twice the power." You're not buying potatoes by the pound. The watts offered by different amps don't sound the same. Buying amps by the published specs is simply uninformed. It's the same as saying "why send more than $2 for headphones, they all play th same music?" 

 "What a ripoff, just get the first generation version for half the price."

 Well, the 1st gen is no longer available and doesn't come with a power supply.

 "Don't even bother, just buy something refurbished."

 This is like Wodgy's comment. Buy what? And have you compared the sound?

 While I have never seen or heard the gen 2, it's only a little more expensive than the gen 1 after accounting for the power supply, the gen 1 is not available, and at $50 I don't think you will be able to find a cheaper integrated amp - even used on ebay, with all the risks and problems that entails. So I have no idea what Wodgy is talking about. The gen 2 does not have great build quality - cheap push pin connectors. But I think it's going to have the same high quality sound as the gen 1 - maybe even improved bass response.

 Geestring: what is it about the bass that's distracting? What source are you using? Speaker placement can have a big impact on bass response, and with small bookshelves you never get real low bass.

 Wodgy: have you spent any time with t-amps?


----------



## geestring

moseboy, you are in the same situation as I am. So you really have no other options if your on a budget. For me it was either the t-amp or my old sony.
 T-amp is very good.


----------



## moseboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *classicalguy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Geestring: what is it about the bass that's distracting? What source are you using? Speaker placement can have a big impact on bass response, and with small bookshelves you never get real low bass._

 

I actually have the same question as classicalguy at this point. Could you elaborate on the bass issue, geestring?


----------



## geestring

its probably placement , im basically sitting 2 feet away. and the speakers are a foot apart. im using emu0404usb....its not that bad... 

 moseboy just get it, dont stress over it. if you read the reviews it is apparent that almost everyone is pleased with it... I knew it was good when i bought it, I only had a concern with the power. But it turns out I can turn it up real loud(small room though)


----------



## moseboy

Yeah, I just went ahead and ordered it shortly after I last posted. I'm sure it will be fine.

 Now, I want to have this hooked up to my laptop. Can I go straight from my headphone jack to the amp, or do I _need_ something between them? How should I have the volume set on my laptop?

 Also, does anyone have any recommendations for speaker cable?


----------



## geestring

yea you can go from laptop 3.5mm speakers to the one on the amp... 

 however the laptop probably has an uninspired soundcard. Right now I'm using the recommended EMU 0404 usb. 

 macbook>emu 0404 usb>t-amp>atoms


----------



## moseboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *geestring* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_yea you can go from laptop 3.5mm speakers to the one on the amp... 

 however the laptop probably has an uninspired soundcard. Right now I'm using the recommended EMU 0404 usb. 

 macbook>emu 0404 usb>t-amp>atoms_

 

Actually, believe it or not, the sound straight out of my HP nw8240 is quite good. I haven't heard the MB/MBP but out of all the other laptops I've heard, including Dells, Gateways, and other HPs of similar models, the nw8240 is the best I've heard. It actually sounds really similar to the Sony A-810 series mp3 players if you've ever heard them....

 But anyway, relatively speaking, how high can I set my laptop volume without hurting either the amp or the speakers? Or what should I be listening for to prevent damage?


----------



## classicalguy

0404 usb --> tamp --> Atoms is going to be about as good as you can get in the price range. If the bass is overwhelming, I'd try a couple of things. First, if you can move the speakers away from the wall, that should help. Second, you might try decoupling from the desk - putting some foam padding under the speakers. Last, you might try putting a sock in the back port. I can't promise it will do any good, and it might do some bad, but it's worth a try.

 Sound out of laptop sound card doesn't sound like a great idea, but we all have to make do with what we've got. Try setting at different levels and see if you get any breakup. If you get breakup, turn it down.


----------



## moseboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *classicalguy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sound out of laptop sound card doesn't sound like a great idea, but we all have to make do with what we've got. Try setting at different levels and see if you get any breakup. If you get breakup, turn it down._

 

Sorry, what exactly do you mean by breakup?

 Also, as a side-question, what gauge wire would be sufficient for use with the SI Gen 2 -> Atoms?


----------



## classicalguy

You'll know it when you hear it. Crackling, noisy, etc.

 It's got pushpins. I've used 14 gauge, but 16 gauge might be easier. For short runs I don't think it's going to make any difference.


----------



## moseboy

Alright. Thanks so much for your time, especially you geestring and classicalguy. I think I know everything I need to know once my equipment arrives.


----------



## classicalguy

Just to show my solidarity, I ordered a gen 2 tamp. Actually, I want it for one of my desktop systems to see if the bass rolloff has been solved AND to try out the headphone amp. If the head amp is any good, this is one of the best bargains of all time. Can work as a battery powered portable headphone amp, plus a full blown speaker amp. Maybe I'm hoping for too much, but the potential with the tripath chp is huge. I can't find any real comparison of headphone amp quality on the web - too new I guess.

 So, that will leave me with one extra t-amp - old style. Here's my idea. I am using the pre-amp outs of my receiver into a t-amp to power my Celestion floor standing speakers. What if I split the left and right preamp outputs with rca 1 male to 2 female splitters, and then plugged a mini-jack to 2 RCA into each of the splitters? I could then run a separate t-amp for the left and right speakers. The speakers are bi-ampable, so I'd have a separate t-amp channel for each tweeter and mid/woofer. I could use two identical t-amps with identical power supplies. The question is whether it would sound any better?

 I suspect the atoms are not the best speakers for a desktop system because of the powerful bass. They are really designed to be used on stands away from walls. This might be one use in which the old t-amps with their rolloff would have sounded better. Spaceman, you might need to apply some eq.


----------



## moseboy

classicalguy: I'd like to hear your comparison between the original T-amp and the Gen 2. I was searching for info on the Gen 2 earlier today and found this thread:

diyAudio Forums Archive - Sonic Impact Gen 2 T-Amp ?

 At least the first half of it is people who haven't even heard the Gen 2 ripping on it, saying "It still has cheap components and it costs _more_ than the original?"

 Then, however, towards the bottom, you'll see a mini-review by Kensai:

 "I've got it, and its up and singing.

 Build quality is much better. Form factor really makes it take up alot less space. I love the popout volume control used for on/off, but using the knob for volume control is not at easy as I would like (its too small and smooth).

 The 2nd Gen is not a bass lightweight like the 1st Gen. In fact it has noticeably more power through the lower registers than my JVC Hybrid Feedback amp I have been using, which was significantly more powerful than the 1st Gen I had been using before it burnt out. It also seems somewhat more powerful, even though JVC rated their amp at 30wpc into 4ohm. Using Live Free or Die Hard DVD as a reference, the JVC, at maximum volume, provided what I would call reference level in my small space, theater level sound, distortion free, through explosions and whatnot. Using the 2nd Gen under the same conditions was louder, basically too loud to handle for any real period of time, even though it proved to be noticeably more clear and legible (more easily making out dialog against noise, including on example where I had not ever been able to make out a certain phrase at all using the JVC on speakers or my Grado SR-80 headphones)."

 You can read the rest on the thread. He then also adds this later in another post:

 "By spec, the JVC has more power, but judging by the max SPL generated by each, the 2nd Gen is the clear winner.

 I doubt that burn in will make the 2nd Gen worse . . . its already the clear winner over my JVC."

 Another person named djfake chimes in a few posts later with his findings as well:

 "Thanks for the reply. I've got both [T-amps] right here (used an Amazon gift cert from Xmas to Parts Express), with the same PSB Alpha B's and an old Rotel CD player (nothing special).

 I have to agree, the soundstage is definitely "fuller" - there's a very noticeable richness to the lower frequencies, and without a doubt, and improvement over the original T-Amp - which I'll promptly be listing on eBay!

 c"


 Quite promising if you ask me.


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## classicalguy

Yea, I read the thread before buying. There are a lot of people commenting who don't know ANYTHING. The reviews from people who are actually using and listening to it are all positive. The old t-amp sold generally for $35, and it cost $15 for the ps, so it was the same price as the new. And the new one comes with a better 3A not 2A ps. Obviously, you can't expect high quality cases, switches, wiring, connectors on a $50 amp. That's just unreasonable.

 In addition, it sounds like they solved the bass rolloff problem and they added a headphone circuit. So the people complaining about the price going up are just wrong. 

 There is really no information yet about the headphone amp. That's the big question mark. I will compare when it arrives. The only headphone amp I have is an old little headroom, but it cost more than the entire t-amp, and all it does is headphone amplification. You can't run it on batteries. While I don't think the headroom is s a great headphone amp, if the gen 2 matches the headphone quality of the headroom it will make the purchase even that much more compelling. Running off the T chip sounds very promising.


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## moseboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *classicalguy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There is really no information yet about the headphone amp. That's the big question mark. I will compare when it arrives. The only headphone amp I have is an old little headroom, but it cost more than the entire t-amp, and all it does is headphone amplification. You can't run it on batteries. While I don't think the headroom is s a great headphone amp, if the gen 2 matches the headphone quality of the headroom it will make the purchase even that much more compelling. Running off the T chip sounds very promising._

 

I concur. I can't wait to hear your conclusion when you get your Gen 2.


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## classicalguy

I received my t-amp gen 2 today, and spent a couple of hours doing comparisons. I've written up my review here: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f5/t-a...hp-amp-303555/

 I'm interested in what you think of the amp when you get it moseboy.


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## moseboy

Thanks for writing that review, classicalguy.

 So I guess the headphone out is neither amazing nor disappointing considering it's just an added plus to an already awesome little package. At least it for sure doesn't sound _worse_ than the original T-amp.

 I'm going home from college this weekend. My amp has already arrived there, and my Paradigm Atoms should be there by the end of the week. I will post what I find when I have played around with both for a little while.

 Just a quick question before then: Is there anything I should _really_ try not to do because it will quickly ruin either my speakers and/or amp? Or is it pretty hard to do so?


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## classicalguy

Other than shorting the speaker outputs, it's hard to think of something that is going to harm your equipment. Make sure the equipment is off when hooking it up. Start up at low volume and turn up slowly. That's about it. This stuff is pretty hard to break.


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## moseboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *classicalguy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Other than shorting the speaker outputs, it's hard to think of something that is going to harm your equipment. Make sure the equipment is off when hooking it up. Start up at low volume and turn up slowly. That's about it. This stuff is pretty hard to break._

 

Very, very good to hear. I'll let you know how I like my Gen 2 -> Atoms this weekend.

 EDIT: ...or not. Apparently, they're on special order from Paradigm because I chose the rosenut finish (
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I thought rosenut was the popular color and that they'd be able to ship them right out, but I guess not). The store I ordered them from is hoping (_hoping_) to have them shipped to my house by next week Friday.


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## spyderx

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *classicalguy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I suspect the atoms are not the best speakers for a desktop system because of the powerful bass. They are really designed to be used on stands away from walls. This might be one use in which the old t-amps with their rolloff would have sounded better. Spaceman, you might need to apply some eq._

 

I mostly agree with this. They are rear ported and if you get them too close to the wall you get a sorta nasty mid-bass bump. I have had these for about a month being driven by a 20w tube amp, imac to external DAC. 

 Anyway, I really like the speakers, but I think I'm going to audition some Usher 520's next week and maybe sell the Paradigms. The Ushers are front ported and can be placed on the wall.

 I don't know much about t-amps, but these Atoms are very efficient and my 20w tube has NO problem driving them loud, especially in near-field.


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## classicalguy

I'm interested in the comparison between usher and atom v5. Ushers are more expensive too, which is also a consideration. How far from the back wall do you need to move the atoms to avoid the mid-bass bump?


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## spyderx

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *classicalguy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm interested in the comparison between usher and atom v5. Ushers are more expensive too, which is also a consideration. How far from the back wall do you need to move the atoms to avoid the mid-bass bump?_

 

I'm not sure, actually. I really don't have much of a choice in this setup for placement. I have them mounted on small stands that I made about 6" off the top of the desk. My desk is right up against the wall, and I don't really want to pull them too far away. Right now the back is maybe 4" from the wall. 

 On about 90% of music is sounds OK in my setup. But in some acoustic music (like Iron & Wine's new album) it gets a little mid-bassy. I know this is placement. Room is about 10x12. It's my office.

 I'm going to play around with them later today. Will try plugging the port and measuring SPL with a meter on some test tones. 

 These really are great little speakers for around $275. I know the Ushers are more. I also looked at some other speakers that are quite a bit more expensive yesterday, but a little too large or rear-ported (Dynaudio, B&W, Focal). Really, I'm looking for something similar in size to the Paradigms, with a front port, and great sound. 

 I will probably bring the speakers with me this week when I audition a few others I have in mind to compare (including the Ushers).


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## geestring

so being rear ported definitely makes the bass muffled?
 mine are about 2" away from the wall.


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## Wodgy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *geestring* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_so being rear ported definitely makes the bass muffled?
 mine are about 2" away from the wall._

 

Being front or rear ported makes no difference at all, contrary to what people on a lot of forums say. The wavelength of bass frequencies causes them to wrap around the speaker.

 What does make a huge difference is being too close to the wall. You're going to get a 6 dB bass hump if the speakers are that close to a wall. These are "real" speakers in the sense that they're designed to be mounted on a stand at least a foot from each nearby wall, preferably 1.5 to two feet.

 If you need to mount speakers 2 inches from the wall, you'll get the most uniform bass by considering speakers designed for wall mounting, which don't compensate for boundary reinforcement.


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## geestring

do you recommend any wall mounted monitors that are equivalent to the atoms in quality and price?


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## moseboy

Do the Atoms not do it for you, geestring?


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## classicalguy

Interesting comment Wodgy. Is it true that it makes "no difference" whether front or rear ported. I mean, could the problem be amplified or greater with rear ported speakers? 

 One very interesting speaker that I've read about, but never heard in person, is the Acculine A-1, which uses a highly regarded b-g tweeter in a bookshelf apparently designed for near-wall mounting. It sounds thin if used as a stand mounted speaker (they have a new A-1R for stand mounting). Cost is $250 in cheap black vinyl wrap. It is rear ported, but it appears it can be used close to a back wall?

The Audio Insider - Home loudspeaker systems and reviews

 Has anyone actually heard this speaker? The more expensive and fancier cabinet B&G version was favorably reviewed in stereophile.


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## spyderx

I should clarify my comment on the rear port. The speakers sound FINE when pulled away from the wall, but my setup has the speakers too close to the wall. I have speakers that are front and rear ported, they all sound fine in correct placement. 

 In MY setup, the front ported speaker doesn't have the issues of being placed close to the wall.


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## classicalguy

Spyderx: Interesting. I suspect that rear porting is more sensive to being against the wall, although I can't prove it.

 Out of curiosity, what front and rear ported speakers have you tried?


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## spyderx

The bass port out the back so close to the wall amplifies the sound coming out of that port. Pull them away a foot or so, sound fine. But in my placement I need them closer.

 I measured the speakers with a DB meter and a series of test tones. HUGE bump in the mid-bass region. Moved the speakers, fine. Replaced with some front ported speakers, fine.

 I have some Usher s520 that I'm using now in my office, the Paradigm atoms sitting on my floor (not using), some B&W CM1 (not using) and some B&W 805 in living room.


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## classicalguy

spyderx: so what is the problem with the ushers in that setup - are they too big or something? I've never seen them in real life, but I thought they'd be similar in size to the atoms. Maybe not?

 You're got a great collection of small speakers. I wonder if the front ported Infinities Primus 142s or 152s might not do the trick. I suspect they are similar to the Atoms but front ported, as both were designed using similar parameters (Floyd Toole'ss measuring systems). I ordered some 142s, but they are not here yet.


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## soundboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *spyderx* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The bass port out the back so close to the wall amplifies the sound coming out of that port. Pull them away a foot or so, sound fine._

 

That's my impression as well. In my small listening area, the backs of my speakers are approximately 12 inches from the wall behind them. Rear-ported speakers, such as a pair of Paradigm Mini-Monitors, always had trouble with such a position. Bass is always amplified and muddy up the sound. Front-ported speakers, such as my current Energy Connoisseur C-3, or sealed (acoustic suspension) speakers, such as my sorely-missed NHT SuperOne, don't have such troubles. In my situation, if the speaker position can be pulled out more into the room, the Paradigm Mini-Minitors could've sounded excellent. However, my situation hasn't change.


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## spyderx

The Usher S520 are working great in my home office. Going to sell the Atoms. Not sure what I'm going to do with the CM1, bedroom maybe, or sell. I have a Jamo setup in there right now that I like. 

 I'd love to get some bigger speakers in my living room (B&W, larger Usher, Totem), but... such is space. And I will take living by the beach in a small house over inland and a big house any day.


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## moseboy

So I've been home from college for a day now. This is the first time I've been home since all my gear has arrived. I went out earlier today and bought some speaker cable and I just got it all set up and running, so I figured I'd post on here. First of all, _wow_ is the T-amp Gen 2 small. It sits right on top of my right Atom without hanging over the edge at _all_. Pretty amazing.... (Oh, and the Atoms in the rosenut finish are _*beautiful*_....)

 So initial impressions of the sound: It's pretty apparent that the Atoms need to be burned in. They sound good, but they sound a little... "choked" in the mids to the upper-mids, which I completely expected. Surprisingly, I'm not noticing the mid-bass hump that has bothered others. Hope it stays that way. The bass _obviously_ doesn't reach down as far as my Shure SE530's. They never will, and I don't expect them to. It still sounds very good for not having a sub. We'll see how the sound improves after some burn-in.

 So on to the amp. First of all, as for the headphone out, I will never be using it. Straight out of my laptop sounds light-years better, which is unfortunate, but I can't complain too much, considering they really didn't need to throw it in there in the first place. I didn't expect it to work very well anyway because my SE530's have an impedance of 36 ohms. I did find it strange though that when I tried listening with them through the T-amp, even if the volume was completely off, there was a faint hiss coming through the right channel.... Kind of odd, but oh well.

 Here is how I have it set up for use. First, I just have a 3.5mm to 3.5mm gold-plated cable going straight from my laptop's headphone out to the input on the T-amp, and then obviously my Paradigm Atoms are connected to the T-amp. _At this point,_ this is how I find it easiest to control: I have the T-amp's knob between 11:00 and 12:00 and I control volume from my laptop. Question: _*Is this bad to do??*_ I remember asking a question a while ago about what volume I should have on my laptop when plugged straight into the T-amp, and I was told (by classicalguy I believe) to listen for "breakup." The problem is, even if I turn up my laptop volume to max, _I still don't hear any breakup._ Maybe I'm not listening for the right thing. Now, I don't just have my laptop volume sitting at max: I have it around 1/4 right now (with the amp still around 12:00, or 1/2). But will I eventually ruin the amp or my speakers from using them this way, and how can I tell if I'm going to? It seems to work fine for right now, but what do you guys think?


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## jung

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *moseboy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_At this point, this is how I find it easiest to control: I have the T-amp's knob between 11:00 and 12:00 and I control volume from my laptop. Question: *Is this bad to do??* I remember asking a question a while ago about what volume I should have on my laptop when plugged straight into the T-amp, and I was told (by classicalguy I believe) to listen for "breakup." The problem is, even if I turn up my laptop volume to max, I still don't hear any breakup. Maybe I'm not listening for the right thing. Now, I don't just have my laptop volume sitting at max: I have it around 1/4 right now (with the amp still around 12:00, or 1/2)._

 

The amp's input impedance is much lower when its volume pot is turned up. So you can reduce the bass roll off, caused by the input coupling cap, by increasing the input impedance, by turning down the amp's volume pot, while setting the volumes on the computer to max.

 But if your computer sound output is overloaded at the max volumes, then you have to turn down the master volume a little bit. If you don't hear any problem, then max is OK.

 Another way is to set the computer master volume when you plug in your headphone. Then adjust the amp's volume pot when you listen through the speaker. This way you don't get nasty surprises when you switch from speaker to headphone, when you forget to turn down the computer master volume from max.

 BTW, the software player's volume and the wave volume control should be set to max, or 0 db, to avoid truncating bits.

 But if you use any DSP in the computer to change the sound signal, then you may need to turn down the digital preamp (before DSP) volume a little bit, to avoid clipping.


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## moseboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jung* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The amp's input impedance is much lower when its volume pot is turned up. So you can reduce the bass roll off, caused by the input coupling cap, by increasing the input impedance, by turning down the amp's volume pot, while setting the volumes on the computer to max.

 But if your computer sound output is overloaded at the max volumes, then you have to turn down the master volume a little bit. If you don't hear any problem, then max is OK._

 

Yeah, I just really don't hear anything wrong with the sound at max volume. It doesn't sound overloaded or anything. I just didn't know if I could theoretically ruin the amp (blow something internally) by throwing too much current to the input. I didn't know if it _required_ line-level or something, and every time I would turn up the volume on my laptop, I would constantly be checking the amp/speakers to see if they were hot. I actually ended up e-mailing Sonic Impact about it, and they responded to my questions (kind of lazily):


 "I recently purchased the Class T Digital Amplifier Gen 2, and so far it seems to be working great with my speakers. I have a few quick questions about the amp:

 1.) When I tried using the headphone out on the right side of the amp (Shure SE530's), the sound quality sounded quite poor and I was hearing some hiss out of just the right channel. What was the headphone out designed to work well with (headphone types impedance, etc.), and why was I getting that hiss out of the right channel? could be headphone most product tested with standard earbuds

 2.) Right now, as input for the amp, I have my laptop wired directly to it with a gold-plated 3.5mm to 3.5mm cable. Will turning the volume high on my laptop harm the amp, and how can I tell if I am doing damage to it? should not matter

 3.) Is there a burn-in period for the amp before it sounds like it is meant to sound? depends on listener some people think it sounds fine out of the box

 4.) About how far, relatively speaking, can I turn the knob on the amp before it starts delivering distorted power to my speakers? depends on speakers and recordings"


 So yeah, I guess as long as it sounds fine, all is good.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jung* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_BTW, the software player's volume and the wave volume control should be set to max, or 0 db, to avoid truncating bits._

 

Yes, I have my wave volume and my player's volume set to max.


 The only problem I have at this point is I think I may have to get the high-frequency driver replaced on one of my Atoms. For a certain range of frequencies at medium volume, it buzzes slightly when the other doesn't. But it's not that big of a deal right now and plan on taking care of it this summer.


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## classicalguy

Sounds like you should use max volume on your computer and coontrol level with the t-amp. You're not going to damage anything. 

 Headphone out of the t-amp is crap. It's not usable. I'm sure we'll hear from some knowledgable people eventually why this is the case.

 Your computer's sound card is likely not as good as you think it is. Upgrading to a better dac with line out should make for a significant improvement.


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## moseboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *classicalguy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Your computer's sound card is likely not as good as you think it is. Upgrading to a better dac with line out should make for a significant improvement._

 

Oh I _know_ it's not that good, but I _have_ heard much worse, so for right now, I'm alright. I just was worried about hurting the amp. What would your guess be as to why the headphone out on the amp would only hiss for the right channel? Does that say anything about my earphones or the rest of the amp?

 One thing I really have to get used to is how detailed these speakers are, even at really low volumes. While I'm impressed by the sound, at the same time I'm going "Man, I don't need to be constantly reminded how crappy the quality is for a lot of the songs in my playlist." Lol....

 By the way, has anyone else had one of their Atoms' high-frequency drivers buzz for a certain frequency range?


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## classicalguy

If you're getting buzzing you likely have a defective speaker and should report it to the seller right away. Sometimes the mounding screws are loose, and you can try tightening them. But probably you have a blown tweeter and you need to get it fixed.

 I don't have any idea why one channel doesn't work with the t-amps hp out, but I would say it doesn't matter because the HP out is so poor even when it's working. You may well have a defective amp, or defective HPs. I'd try the hps in another player, and try other HPs in the amp to isolate what is broken.

 Yes, bad recordings sound so much worse on good equipment.


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## moseboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *classicalguy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If you're getting buzzing you likely have a defective speaker and should report it to the seller right away. Sometimes the mounding screws are loose, and you can try tightening them. But probably you have a blown tweeter and you need to get it fixed.

 I don't have any idea why one channel doesn't work with the t-amps hp out, but I would say it doesn't matter because the HP out is so poor even when it's working. You may well have a defective amp, or defective HPs. I'd try the hps in another player, and try other HPs in the amp to isolate what is broken.

 Yes, bad recordings sound so much worse on good equipment._

 


 I only really notice the buzzing for frequencies between 1k and 2k and only if i turn the volume up a little. Otherwise it sounds alright most of the time, but sometimes that buzzing jumps out and it's kind of distracting. Oh well, I'll just take it in and see what they can do.

 It's not that one channel of the headphone out doesn't work at _all_. It works, but when music isn't playing, I can hear a little white noise out of the right channel, and that's only with my Shure's, and I can't _imagine_ them being defective. I use them _all_ the time, and I would've noticed something by now. If I use a standard pair of stock headphones I can't hear the white noise from the headphone out at all. I just didn't know if I should be alarmed enough to question whether or not my amp is defective.

 Is there a way I can test it?


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## classicalguy

moseboy: You're probably getting hiss because of an impedance mismatch between your shure HPs and the HP out of the t-amp. I don't know why it would only be in one channel though. Are you sure it's only in one channel? Anyway, I'd recommend not using the HP out of the t-amp. It stinks.

 Buzzing from the speakers means somethings broken. If you bought new speakers, you should make them fix/replace them.


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## moseboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *classicalguy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_moseboy: You're probably getting hiss because of an impedance mismatch between your shure HPs and the HP out of the t-amp. I don't know why it would only be in one channel though. Are you sure it's only in one channel? Anyway, I'd recommend not using the HP out of the t-amp. It stinks.

 Buzzing from the speakers means somethings broken. If you bought new speakers, you should make them fix/replace them._

 

Yeah, I'm not too worried about them fixing it. I just got an e-mail back from them saying all I have to do is bring it in and they'll order what they need to from Paradigm in order to fix it.

 As for the T-amp, yeah, I'm 100% sure it's only out of the right channel. It's really weird. It's not that I plan on using the headphone out _ever_. It's just that I'm wondering if there is actually something up with the rest of the amp. I may wake up another thread to see if anyone else has had the same experience.


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## classicalguy

Well, if it makes you feel any better, mine sounds equally bad in both channels through the HP out!


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## alleyezon_d

Hiss from a headphone amp could have nothing to do with the volume level. I had an old yamaha integrated that had a hiss with the volume off as well. It has to do I think with the signal to noise ratio, and the only way I was able to lower the noise was to use an attenuator. It could also just be from your onboard sound card if that's what you're using, with the T-amp's applied gain increasing the noise. My onboard soundcard is very noisy compared to my external DAC.


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## moseboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *alleyezon_d* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hiss from a headphone amp could have nothing to do with the volume level. I had an old yamaha integrated that had a hiss with the volume off as well. It has to do I think with the signal to noise ratio, and the only way I was able to lower the noise was to use an attenuator. It could also just be from your onboard sound card if that's what you're using, with the T-amp's applied gain increasing the noise. My onboard soundcard is very noisy compared to my external DAC._

 

I can totally see how that could be the case. However, I still don't see why it would only be through one channel. That's the million dollar question at this point.


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## jung

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *moseboy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I still don't see why it would only be through one channel._

 

Return and exchange the amp, and see if the new one is better.


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## moseboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jung* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Return and exchange the amp, and see if the new one is better._

 

If it did come down to that, does anyone know how Parts Express is about returns?


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## jung

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *classicalguy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm interested in getting some new bookshelf speakers, and the Paradigms are on the list. There is competition in the category from PSB, AV123, Ascend, Usher, Celestion, Acculine and others. I find it hard to choose, because there are few direct comparisons being made by independent and capable people._

 

Stereophile is a good start point. Paradigm Atom v.5 is rated as Class D. In Class C, they have Infinity Primus P162, Epos ELS-3, etc. 

 Comparisons:
Stereophile: Paradigm Atom Monitor v.5 loudspeaker
Stereophile: Paradigm Atom Monitor v.5 loudspeaker
Stereophile: Paradigm Atom v.3 loudspeaker
Stereophile: Audioengine 2 powered loudspeaker
Stereophile: Infinity Primus P162 loudspeaker
Stereophile: Wharfedale Diamond 9.1 loudspeaker
Stereophile: Infinity Primus 150 loudspeaker
Stereophile: Epos ELS-3 loudspeaker
Stereophile: Acarian Alón Li'l Rascal Mk.II loudspeaker
Stereophile: Polk Audio LSi7 loudspeaker
Stereophile: NHT SB-3 loudspeaker

 KEF iQ9 gets Class C rating despite too much bass. Without the bass problem, it might get Class B.
Stereophile: KEF iQ9 loudspeaker

 KEF iQ3 is the largest bookshelf using the same drivers, crossover, and cabinet design as iQ9, but without the excessive bass. Its street price can be below $400, not much more expensive than the above mentioned speakers.
http://stereo.50webs.com/
 If you must have smaller or less expensive, there is also iQ1 in the same series.

 Monitor Audio RS6 is rated as Class B. The bookshelf version RS1 can be under $500.
Stereophile: Monitor Audio Silver RS6 loudspeaker

 For myself, 6.5" woofer 2-way bookshelf is not too large. If I want something smaller, I'll be interested in single driver speaker, without tweeter and crossover.


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