# Bose Sues Beats for Patent Infringement



## jude

​  
  
 Bose is suing Beats for infringement of its patents pertaining to ANC/ANR (active noise cancellation/reduction). The causes of action are listed as: 
  
  

Count I – Infringement of U.S. Patent No. 6,717,537
Method and apparatus for minimizing latency in digital signal processing systems
Excerpt(s) from the patent:
"While widely used in the art, the conventional analog approach for reducing noise in a system is not without its problems. ANC systems are theoretically able to null the noise by generating a phase-inverted antinoise signal, however, as a practical concern, the various components of the system such as the input and output transducers will introduce certain undesirable delays. These delays may adversely affect the frequency range over which noise can be cancelled, the degree to which noise can be cancelled, and the stability of the noise-cancellation system. It is therefore desirable to be able to minimize the associated delays in the circuit. Likewise, it is also desirable to be able to adjust the circuit to compensate for component variation and manufacturing tolerances and for usage conditions to maximize the noise-cancellation frequency range and noise-cancellation ratio. Such adjustability is difficult to achieve using analog techniques. Another desirable function that can prove difficult in the analog domain is the equalization of the signal for frequency-dependent attenuation caused by subsequent processing functions."


  

Count II – Infringement of U.S. Patent No. 8,073,150
Dynamically configurable ANR signal processing topology

  

Count III – Infringement of U.S. Patent No. 8,073,151
Dynamically configurable ANR filter block topology

  

Count IV – Infringement of U.S. Patent No. 8,054,992
High frequency compensating

  

Count V – Infringement of U.S. Patent No. 8,345,888
Digital high frequency phase compensation

  
 The Beats products Bose specifically names are the Beats Studio and the Beats Studio Wireless. Though Bose makes mention in the suit of all of its ANR/ANC models (past and present), only its Bose QC20 is mentioned repeatedly, perhaps because _"The QC20 embodies at least one invention claimed by each of the Asserted Patents,"_ and it is their most recent active noise canceling model.
  
 By now, most of you probably know that Apple recently acquired Beats for around $3 billion, so some may find the timing of Bose's lawsuit interesting.
  
 This could be an intriguing lawsuit to pay attention to (assuming it isn't settled out first). Also, I have to imagine, given the scope of Bose's patents, that perhaps other companies making ANR/ANC headphones may similarly find themselves named as defendants in the future.


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## thatBeatsguy

Subbed.
  
 This is interesting, especially with Apple having already bought Beats.


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## AnakChan

thatbeatsguy said:


> Subbed.
> 
> This is interesting, especially with Apple having already bought Beats.


I'm sure the suit was timed accordingly.


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## TripBitShooter

Oooh interesting... btw does anyone know the result of the lawsuit in which beats sued yamaha for copying its headphone design?


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## invisiblekid

anakchan said:


> I'm sure the suit was timed accordingly.


 
 To get publicity sure, but while Beats had plenty of $$$ if I were Bose, I'd rather be up against them on their own rather than their brand new owners with more money than God.


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## RPGWiZaRD

Man, do I hate these U.S. patent laws. It hurts us costumers. Patenting things like that is madness.


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## audionewbi

Bose and Beats the two products head-fi could not care less about, let them fight, they both made enough money for little good reason. Truth be told bose on ear got me into this hobby which made me buy the ER4S and realise what treble was all about.


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## physib

I think the timing is stupid... Apple has so much experience/money with patent trolling I doubt it would go too well for Bose.


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## daerron

So why aren't they also suing other ANC headphone makers or do they have licensing agreements with Bose? Certainly will be interesting, especially taking the the timing of this into account.


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## MrLazyAnt

I would think that Bose might want to make their claim with a smaller company first so as to set precedent. Of course this could be partly a long term marketing ploy in which case suing a namebrand like Beats makes more sense


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## MrLazyAnt

Putting it to the public that bose has beats technlogy and even developed it


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## spook76

rpgwizard said:


> Man, do I hate these U.S. patent laws. It hurts us costumers. Patenting things like that is madness.




You have to be kidding me. Patent law exists to allow investors to reap monopoly rents for a statutory length of time. Without patent law why put in all of the effort, time and money developing new inventions, for the common good? Patent law is so important than it was specifically referenced in the US Constitution back in 1788 in Article I Section 8.


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## TripBitShooter

btw audionewbi Bose is not as bad as u think. their speaker systems (like the soundlink mini and Bose companion II 2.0 speaker system) are pretty good and their ANC headphones are decent (but are being beaten by much cheaper Creatives in terms of overall Sound Quality and ANC ability).


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## TripBitShooter

its also not good to overly hate or like a certain brand. of course if a brand like beats is too infamous for being overpriced then u can hate it but generally have an open mind. u can like or dislike a brand but dont let it cloud your judgement of the gear it sells. ne unbiased basically


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## RPGWiZaRD

spook76 said:


> You have to be kidding me. Patent law exists to allow investors to reap monopoly rents for a statutory length of time. Without patent law why put in all of the effort, time and money developing new inventions, for the common good? Patent law is so important than it was specifically referenced in the US Constitution back in 1788 in Article I Section 8.


 

 No, I'm not and I'm just stating my opinion of it and I hate it.

 The reason is it limits freedom of us customers and ruins competitiveness and leads to stale product development. Say what if ANC was patented. Person wants a ANC headphone but is picky about the sound quality. Then the person has to rely on that particular headphone company to get a good sounding headphone. Well we all know that is not an easy task, especially to fit into everyone's taste as we all have our different personal taste on how it should be. It could also cause the developer with the patent to become lazy and release half-assed attempts with little efforts as they are the only competitor with that feature. U.S. patent law is a competitiveness edginess dampening system and limit of freedom of choice to the customer. Yes it's good that it protects the development efforts of the developer but again to me, it's more of a harm than it does good. That companies have abused the system doesn't make it better.

 Luckily europe has released this. There has to exist some limit at which and how things are patented, in U.S. the bar seems set too low. Patenting certain technologies is just harm for customers in the world.


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## spook76

rpgwizard said:


> No, I'm not and I'm just stating my opinion of it and I hate it.
> 
> 
> The reason is it limits freedom of us customers and ruins competitiveness and leads to stale product development. Say what if ANC was patented. Person wants a ANC headphone but is picky about the sound quality. Then the person has to rely on that particular headphone company to get a good sounding headphone. Well we all know that is not an easy task, especially to fit into everyone's taste as we all have our different personal taste on how it should be. It could also cause the developer with the patent to become lazy and release half-assed attempts with little efforts as they are the only competitor with that feature. U.S. patent law is a competitiveness edginess dampening system and limit of freedom of choice to the customer. Yes it's good that it protects the development efforts of the developer but again to me, it's more of a harm than it does good. That companies have abused the system doesn't make it better.
> ...




If we followed your logic, there would be no ANC patent to steal. Why would Bose develop it knowing full well its competitors would simply copy it upon release? In your system, say goodbye to new inventions. 

While the EU may allow it (I have no expertise on EU law), thankfully US law precludes importation of patent infringing products.

You have a valid point about reducing competitiveness and that is why the length of the patent is set by statute.


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## davidsh

Patents are always a balance. Without patents nobody would want to put in massive amounts of money in research, with patents competitiveness takes a drop. That ain't rocket science. Of course finding a good balance is oth.


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## spook76

Exactly right!


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## RPGWiZaRD

I edited the last line a bit so posting it in case you missed it. 
  


> There has to exist some limit at which and how things are patented, in U.S. the bar seems set too low. Patenting certain technologies is just harm for customers in the world.


 

 My problem is the fact how easy and favorable for the company the patenting system is. Certain technologies like ANC for example I see more like a fundamental part of a headphone these days just as much as "closed" vs "open" headphone design can't be patented or patenting "headband design for headphone" would be equally silly. The youth is listening in very noisy environment these days in the cities that it's GOOD to bring the background noise down if possible so that they don't turn up the volume to excessive levels. Should be in the best interest to preserve the hearing of the population, hence why ANC patents is a bit silly to me, the more options the merrier here.

 This is what I had in mind but should have written it down perhaps, again my problem with it is how easy and how favorable the patenting system is to corporations and that the bar for what can be and cannot be is set very low. 

 I rest my case now, not going to discuss this anymore.


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## Thad-E-Ginathom

> Patents are always a balance. Without patents nobody would want to put in massive amounts of money in research, with patents competitiveness takes a drop. That ain't rocket science. Of course finding a good balance is oth.


 

 Patents on real engineering and process achievements are different to patents on rectangles with curved corners. The first ensure that the engineering was worth it; the second are an abuse of the ideal of the idea, the law, and the consumer.
  
 Bose v Beats? Perhaps we should know a little more about the basis for the suit before condemning it, or assuming that Apple's experience in this area will flatten them. On would hope that it has to do with more than the letter b! Bose may not be a Samsung, but they are no little guy with no experience of courts, surely?
  
 (Somehow the text of your quoted post disappeared: edited it in)
  
  
 ~


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## ForShure

Two of the worst audio companies fighting each other...I love it.


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## cb3723

I own but one Bose headphone the QuietComfort15 and I bought it largely for its awesome worlds best ANC - the only headphone that puts the world virtually on mute - I can see why Bose as a company would be resolute in defending any patent infringement on this technology as it's clearly gives their products that utilise this feature it's added value head and shoulders above their competition.

But maaan, the patent lawyers involved in this battle of the giants are going to be getting paid some serious fees, lol 

Maybe Apple will just try to buy Bose out and be done with it?


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## thatBeatsguy

forshure said:


> Two of the worst audio companies fighting each other...I love it.


 
 I'm eager to see this battle unfold just as much as you do. 





  


cb3723 said:


> I own but one Bose headphone the QuietComfort15 and I bought it largely for its awesome worlds best ANC - the only headphone that puts the world virtually on mute - I can see why Bose as a company would be resolute in defending any patent infringement on this technology as it's clearly gives their products that utilise this feature it's added value head and shoulders above their competition.
> 
> But maaan, the patent lawyers involved in this battle of the giants are going to be getting paid some serious fees, lol
> 
> ...


 
 I don't think Apple is going to be willing to buy out Bose, expecially now that they have Beats on their roster. 
  
 But one thing of note: Patent lawyers *always* get paid serious fees.
 I guess I should become one in the future.


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## uli87

Boseats


cb3723 said:


> I own but one Bose headphone the QuietComfort15 and I bought it largely for its awesome worlds best ANC - the only headphone that puts the world virtually on mute - I can see why Bose as a company would be resolute in defending any patent infringement on this technology as it's clearly gives their products that utilise this feature it's added value head and shoulders above their competition.
> 
> But maaan, the patent lawyers involved in this battle of the giants are going to be getting paid some serious fees, lol
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yeah.. then merge the two to create the most horrific thing known to audio enthusiasts - Boseats
  
 I thought the Bose Triports were all that back in the day. I took good care of them and still have them with me today. Pretty bad.


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## cb3723

uli87 said:


> Boseats
> 
> Yeah.. then merge the two to create the most horrific thing known to audio enthusiasts - Boseats
> 
> I thought the Bose Triports were all that back in the day. I took good care of them and still have them with me today. Pretty bad.


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## kimvictor

Intriguing. I always thought Bose had the best ANC technology ever(though Sony and few other manufacturers are getting much better nowadays). I honestly can see why Bose would defend their technology fiercely. It's one of their only major selling points. Though the timing is bit awkward to be honest. Apple is not going to be easy to fight against. Even other giant companies(ahm... Samsung perhaps) are having great difficulty fighting Apple in law suits.


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## macbob713

Bose has always inflamed the high end community, ever since Amar Bose challenged a very negative review published by Consumer Reports on the company's first loudspeaker, the Bose 901. The case went all the way to the US Supreme Court, which vindicated Bose. Back in the 1970's, the 901 was one of the hottest selling speakers in the US. Good reviews flowed from Stereo Review and other publications until Stereophile published a scathing review critiquing the speaker. The speaker went on as a big seller for decades and numerous improvements were made to it, all the way to the current version 6, which was upgraded again last year. It was the final project Dr Bose worked on prior to his death. 
Bose has always been an innovative and creative company. Bose himself taught electrical engineering at MIT, and recruited his top students to careers at Bose. When Dr Bose died, he left controlling interest in the company to MIT so the company would continue on as it did under his management. Bose has and continues to make very good audio products. They are designed for the mass market, and brilliantly marketed. Are they the finest name in sound, no, but they are the best known brand in the world.
I've owned the 901 in the past, and in the right room with good equipment sounds really good. I also used to have a lifestyle surround system, and that was great with movies but just ok with music. Still have my Quiet Comfort 15's, which I use for travel and for patio use, but that's it. For real headphone listening, I'm using the AKG K812 with the SPL Phonitor 2.


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## Armaegis

I feel like this is just a calculated publicity grab/bridging the gap for brand awareness. Now that beats has been around for long enough, all those "punks who don't know better" are growing up into "adults who don't know better", which is pretty much the Bose demographic.


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## davidsh

armaegis said:


> I feel like this is just a calculated publicity grab/bridging the gap for brand awareness. Now that beats has been around for long enough, all those "punks who don't know better" are growing up into "adults who don't know better", which is pretty much the Bose demographic.


 
 Haha, so well said!


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## Soundsgoodtome

Juicy stuff. 

+1 on beats suing Yamaha. What happened with that?


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## DisCHORDDubstep

Lol! Just a while back, beats sued a Windows Phone 8 App developer named Rudy Huyn for making an app named "6Studio" since there could have been some confusion with beats studio... Since... You know... A headphone called beats studio can totally be confused with an app on a phone called 6studio. No joke. Anyways, Bose suing beats? Seems legit, though I don't think they'll go after any audiophile companies. They target completely different markets and customers.


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## crashtest33

Awesome! Two brands that produce over-priced garbage sueing each other. I hope the both loose a ton of dosh on lawyers fees and go bust (one can hope)!


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## DisCHORDDubstep

tripbitshooter said:


> btw audionewbi Bose is not as bad as u think. their speaker systems (like the soundlink mini and Bose companion II 2.0 speaker system) are pretty good and their ANC headphones are decent (but are being beaten by much cheaper Creatives in terms of overall Sound Quality and ANC ability).


soundlink? I tried the Bose sounddock 10... I have speakers that came free with my computer 10 years ago that have more detail. The sounddock 10 had more bass than the solo hd's I tried a while back. (I actually liked the solo hd's.) and it wasn't very detailed either.


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## Eddie C




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## JWahl

I can understand both sides of the argument on the patent law.  I agree that it's good to have patent protection on genuinely novel engineering for a limited amount of time.  Then it should be publicly released for the common good.  To be honest, I'm not entirely sure what that length is here in the U.S.  I do know Bose's ANC tech has been out for what seems like forever and a day and I'm honestly surprised there are still any valid patents on it.  I think a year after utilizing a patent should be plenty of time to have that short monopoly.


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## cb3723

soundsgoodtome said:


> Juicy stuff.
> 
> +1 on beats suing Yamaha. What happened with that?




I think if it can't get settled in court dre and CEO of Yamaha America duked it out in the car park, fist to fist - as dre is former NWA and straight outta Compton he had the upper hand and opened a can of whoop ass on Yammy dude.

Dre's always gonna beats anyone in a fisty cuffs showdown


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## brassmonkey

But somehow I suspect Bose is not during Beats because they use or have ANC technology as so much as for the way Beats is accomplishing it. I'm sure there are plenty of ANC headphones that do not accomplish the task in the same manner as the Bose. You can have the finished outcome trough different processes. I don't think this lawsuit is a case of what they do as rather as how they so it.


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## jude

I have to largely agree with @macbob713 here, especially with my experience with two of Bose's later products, the *Bose QC15* and the *Bose QC20*.
  
 While I have noise-canceling over-ears with sound quality I prefer over the QC15, I still haven't heard a commercial over-ear actively cancel more noise than the QC15 (and the louder it gets around you, the better (comparatively) the QC15 sounds). The Bose QC20 actively cancels more noise than any other consumer active noise canceler I've yet used, period; and, again, because of this, the louder it gets around you, the better it can sound compared to most other options. That is, the louder the noise around you (especially, in my opinion, when a lot of that noise is low frequency noise, droning noise), the more dealing with that noise becomes perhaps the most important thing to contend with.
  
 The QC15 and QC20 are _very_ comfortable, too. Though the QC20 is an in-ear, its eartips are more like  shallow bowls that rest atop your ear canal--it's about the least invasive in-ear I've worn, and I can wear the QC20 all the way from Detroit to Tokyo without issue.
  
 Long story short, Bose makes some quality gear, especially with these two flagship travel headphones. (I've briefly heard one of their Bluetooth speaker models, and was also impressed by it.)
  


macbob713 said:


> Bose has always inflamed the high end community, ever since Amar Bose challenged a very negative review published by Consumer Reports on the company's first loudspeaker, the Bose 901. The case went all the way to the US Supreme Court, which vindicated Bose. Back in the 1970's, the 901 was one of the hottest selling speakers in the US. Good reviews flowed from Stereo Review and other publications until Stereophile published a scathing review critiquing the speaker. The speaker went on as a big seller for decades and numerous improvements were made to it, all the way to the current version 6, which was upgraded again last year. It was the final project Dr Bose worked on prior to his death.
> Bose has always been an innovative and creative company. Bose himself taught electrical engineering at MIT, and recruited his top students to careers at Bose. When Dr Bose died, he left controlling interest in the company to MIT so the company would continue on as it did under his management. Bose has and continues to make very good audio products. They are designed for the mass market, and brilliantly marketed. Are they the finest name in sound, no, but they are the best known brand in the world.
> I've owned the 901 in the past, and in the right room with good equipment sounds really good. I also used to have a lifestyle surround system, and that was great with movies but just ok with music. Still have my Quiet Comfort 15's, which I use for travel and for patio use, but that's it. For real headphone listening, I'm using the AKG K812 with the SPL Phonitor 2.


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## cb3723

brassmonkey said:


> But somehow I suspect Bose is not during Beats because they use or have ANC technology as so much as for the way Beats is accomplishing it. I'm sure there are plenty of ANC headphones that do not accomplish the task in the same manner as the Bose. You can have the finished outcome trough different processes. I don't think this lawsuit is a case of what they do as rather as how they so it.




Absolutely, I totally agree and own quietcomfort15 from Bose and original and new beats studio cans and the difference in the ANC between each brand is like chalk and cheese.

Tyll Hertsens did a comprehensive comparative review of ANC quality on a array of different headphones and concluded that Bose were way ahead of the competition in that department - he actually called Bose's ANC as "unbelievable".

But Bose's ANC isn't just significantly more effective than beats ANC alone, it significantly better than any other manufacturer that has this feature.

My guess is like yours - beats are looking to up their ANC feature and the way they are looking to achieve this is where the infringing on patents comes into play.

But the publicity isn't going to hurt either brand - positive or negative, as long as their names are been discussed, especially on a site like this - the marketing dudes from each brand rub their hands with glee.


[VIDEO]http://youtu.be/YDPVryZ773w[/VIDEO]​




Spoiler



















If you have never experienced just how über amazing Bose's ANC is - next time you pass your local Apple store, go check them out - they usually have a model out on display to check for yourself - don't play any music though just make sure the ANC is turned on and put them on and find the world on mute - its pretty cool and Bose rule the ANC school.


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## Makiah S

anakchan said:


> I'm sure the suit was timed accordingly.


 
  
  


tripbitshooter said:


> Oooh interesting... btw does anyone know the result of the lawsuit in which beats sued yamaha for copying its headphone design?


 
  
  


invisiblekid said:


> To get publicity sure, but while Beats had plenty of $$$ if I were Bose, I'd rather be up against them on their own rather than their brand new owners with more money than God.


 
 all good points 
  
 I'm kinda hoping though Apple Trashes em in court, I'm not a huge Apple fan, and neither am I a big Bose Fan. But more importantly Bose's timing really urks me, here's to a Victory for Apple!


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## Buddhahacker

rpgwizard said:


> No, I'm not and I'm just stating my opinion of it and I hate it.
> 
> The reason is it limits freedom of us customers and ruins competitiveness and leads to stale product development. Say what if ANC was patented. Person wants a ANC headphone but is picky about the sound quality. Then the person has to rely on that particular headphone company to get a good sounding headphone. Well we all know that is not an easy task, especially to fit into everyone's taste as we all have our different personal taste on how it should be. It could also cause the developer with the patent to become lazy and release half-assed attempts with little efforts as they are the only competitor with that feature. U.S. patent law is a competitiveness edginess dampening system and limit of freedom of choice to the customer. Yes it's good that it protects the development efforts of the developer but again to me, it's more of a harm than it does good. That companies have abused the system doesn't make it better.
> 
> Luckily europe has released this. There has to exist some limit at which and how things are patented, in U.S. the bar seems set too low. Patenting certain technologies is just harm for customers in the world.


 
 +1  Completely agree with you.  Patents have become a weapon and not a protection as they were originally envisioned.  I have been involved tangentially in a couple of patent lawsuits and in both cases the company bringing the case knew they would lose  but they used the lawsuit as a way to cause fear in the customers of the targeted company. That targeted companies were smaller than the suing companies and freezing customers along with the costs to fight the suits caused significant financial strain on the smaller companies.  They both won in the end but in both cases they lost about a years worth of revenue due to lost sales, delayed development and legal fees.


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## Bansaku

cb3723 said:


> I think if it can't get settled in court dre and CEO of Yamaha America duked it out in the car park, fist to fist - as dre is former NWA and straight outta Compton he had the upper hand and opened a can of whoop ass on Yammy dude.


 
  
  
 Are you insane? $10 says all top level Yamaha employees are required to attain a 5th level black-belt in their choice of any Japanese martial arts! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Anyway, this whole patent war is ridiculous. One thing that hasn't been said is the fact that technically Bose did not create 'active noise cancelling', they simply implemented the concept (first) in their headsets for commercial and military use. Simply put, noise cancelling is physics. You take the source's sound wave and inverse it, therefore the two waves cancel each other out. Theoretically speaking, virtually anyone with a microphone and speaker can create their own active noise cancelling device. Now if Beats actually pulled a China and literally copied Bose's ANC technology circuit for circuit, as opposed to using their in-house developed ANC technology, then, and only then can I see this being a viable patent case. Otherwise Bose is simply trying to pull off a convenient cash grab from the one of the world's richest company. That said, one simply has to listen to each companies' offering and realize that Beats DID NOT copy Bose's technology. And both still sound like poo to my ears!


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## StanD

I find it ironic that Apple is on the other side of a patent lawsuit. I'm sure that Bose can afford a patent attorney well versed.
 If the technical aspects line up well for Bose, Apple may be in for a rough ride. If the details of the claims hold up and Beats is held in violation, Apple will be paying up. In any case, the Lawyers always win.


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## billybob_jcv

Hmm, I think you guys are missing a major aspect to this lawsuit. Bose isn't suing over the concept of ANC - Bose doesn't own that - it's been around for ages. In fact, I worked with engineers back in the early 1980s at Lockheed that were using ANC to dampen the noise inside the P3 and S3 electronic warfare aircraft. According to Wikipedia, the first patent for ANC was filed in 1934.

Patent lawsuits aren't normally about big concepts like ANC - they are about tiny little details within the design, and that's what we're seeing here:


 Method and apparatus for minimizing latency in digital signal processing systems
 Dynamically configurable ANR signal processing topology
 Dynamically configurable ANR filter block topology
 High frequency compensating
 Digital high frequency phase compensation

The more specific the patent, the easier it is to claim an infringement, and the harder it is to defend the infringement claim. Beats has to show that their design is significantly (in a legal sense) different, or Beats has to show that they own their own patents that cover this infringement claim and that those patents predate the Bose patents. Just because a patent was issued to Bose doesn't mean they absolutely were the first - it just means that the patent lawyers were able to convince the patent office they were the first. Patents that were granted can also later be invalidated. Companies often purchase the earlier, broader patents from the patent owners in order to help defend their current, more specific patents. It helps to establish an unbroken chain of "prior knowledge" that makes it hard for the other company to defeat.


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## spook76

macbob713 said:


> Bose has always inflamed the high end community, ever since Amar Bose challenged a very negative review published by Consumer Reports on the company's first loudspeaker, the Bose 901. The case went all the way to the US Supreme Court, which vindicated Bose. Back in the 1970's, the 901 was one of the hottest selling speakers in the US. Good reviews flowed from Stereo Review and other publications until Stereophile published a scathing review critiquing the speaker. The speaker went on as a big seller for decades and numerous improvements were made to it, all the way to the current version 6, which was upgraded again last year. It was the final project Dr Bose worked on prior to his death.
> Bose has always been an innovative and creative company. Bose himself taught electrical engineering at MIT, and recruited his top students to careers at Bose. When Dr Bose died, he left controlling interest in the company to MIT so the company would continue on as it did under his management. Bose has and continues to make very good audio products. They are designed for the mass market, and brilliantly marketed. Are they the finest name in sound, no, but they are the best known brand in the world.
> I've owned the 901 in the past, and in the right room with good equipment sounds really good. I also used to have a lifestyle surround system, and that was great with movies but just ok with music. Still have my Quiet Comfort 15's, which I use for travel and for patio use, but that's it. For real headphone listening, I'm using the AKG K812 with the SPL Phonitor 2.




Unfortunately while I agree with then Justice Rehnquist's dissent, the US Supreme Court ruled 6-3 in favor of Consumer Reports. The Court stated that Bose needed to prove "actual malice" and they agreed with the US circuit court that Bose had failed to do so. 
See Bose Corp. v. Consumer Union, 466 U.S. 485 (1984).

Using a standard developed to encourage free speech about public figures (NY Times v. Sullivan) in a product disparagement case is as Justice Rehnquist stated a ludicrous outcome.


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## TripBitShooter

disCHORDdubstep, there is a soundlink mini. just search up reviews on it. it seems like a very good effort from bose.


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## Steve Eddy

macbob713 said:


> Bose has always inflamed the high end community, ever since Amar Bose challenged a very negative review published by Consumer Reports on the company's first loudspeaker, the Bose 901. The case went all the way to the US Supreme Court, which vindicated Bose.




Bose lost in the Supreme Court ruling 6-3.

se


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## cb3723

bansaku said:


> Are you insane? $10 says all top level Yamaha employees are required to attain a 5th level black-belt in their choice of any Japanese martial arts!
> 
> Anyway, this whole patent war is ridiculous. One thing that hasn't been said is the fact that technically Bose did not create 'active noise cancelling', they simply implemented the concept (first) in their headsets for commercial and military use. Simply put, noise cancelling is physics. You take the source's sound wave and inverse it, therefore the two waves cancel each other out. Theoretically speaking, virtually anyone with a microphone and speaker can create their own active noise cancelling device. Now if Beats actually pulled a China and literally copied Bose's ANC technology circuit for circuit, as opposed to using their in-house developed ANC technology, then, and only then can I see this being a viable patent case. Otherwise Bose is simply trying to pull off a convenient cash grab from the one of the world's richest company. That said, one simply has to listen to each companies' offering and realize that Beats DID NOT copy Bose's technology. And both still sound like poo to my ears!




LoL - you may have a point with Yamaha black belts.

But ANC sounds like poo to you?

Man that's some heavy schiit issue you got goin on there.

Bose's ANC sound like peace and quiet to me - no schiit


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## Bansaku

cb3723 said:


> But ANC sounds like poo to you?


 
  
 No no, just the Bose house sound and Beat's crap-sound, not Bose ANC, and especially not ANC in their aviators .


----------



## Bansaku

stand said:


> If the details of the claims hold up and Beats is held in violation, Apple will be paying up. In any case, the Lawyers always win.


 
  
 I dunno, I think Apple employs Mr. Burn's lawyers (or at least that's how I always viewed them).


----------



## cb3723

bansaku said:


> No no, just the Bose house sound and Beat's crap-sound, not Bose ANC, and especially not ANC in their aviators .




Oh I only wear my Bose when commuting - never in the house and I wear my beats just to look cool and get respect from my cooler peers


----------



## DisCHORDDubstep

An





cb3723 said:


> Oh I only wear my Bose when commuting - never in the house and I wear my beats just to look cool and get respect from my cooler peers


 and because the studio 2.0's and solo 2.0's are a great portable headphone with a decent amount of detail.


----------



## Toxic Cables

anakchan said:


> I'm sure the suit was timed accordingly.


 
 They  would have been better off before Apple took over, me thinks.


----------



## crashtest33

bansaku said:


> I dunno, I think Apple employs Mr. Burn's lawyers (or at least that's how I always viewed them).




Smithers, release the Hounds! Lol


----------



## StanD

Quote:
 Originally Posted by *StanD* 


  
  If the details of the claims hold up and Beats is held in violation, Apple will be paying up. In any case, the Lawyers always win.


bansaku said:


> I dunno, I think Apple employs Mr. Burn's lawyers (or at least that's how I always viewed them).


 
 I heard that Bart went to law school and has joined Apple's legal team.


----------



## Makiah S

toxic cables said:


> They  would have been better off before Apple took over, me thinks.


 
 Hmm that depends, I have a feeling undre Dr Dre, Bose might have had an eaiser case as I doubt he can defend the product as well as Apple can, but with Apple Bose stands grounds to... do something worthwhile. Attack Dr Dre would do nothing for Bose. Yea he's rich, he capitilzed on a market before any one else, I respect him for that. Techincally though he didn't do anything great or even worthwhile. From a marketing aspect the Beats headphones was a huge win, from a technical stand point... not much going on
  
 how ever, for Bose to sue Apple on the grounds of technical infirngements, they do stand to gain something, if they can de bunk apple they stand to gain a share of Apple's customers, I mean there are two things comsumers like, iPods and Beats Headphones
  
 Bose used to be super popular before beats came around, and it seems like Bose wants to get back into that market, what better way to build it's customer base than claim that the Beats Headphones Under Apple, are just imitations of previous Released Bose cans? Attacking and winning a legal battle again'st Apple seems to be a smarter move for them as far as building credibility goes or proving it's technical merits


----------



## macbob713

steve eddy said:


> Bose lost in the Supreme Court ruling 6-3.
> 
> se



Bose won in a lower court ruling when a Federal District Judge in Mass. found that Consumers Union changed the original draft of the review of the 901 speaker written by the author, who testified against Consumers Union at the trial. The case was appealed, and ultimately Bose lost when they could not prove intentional malice. The case took 14 years to reach its conclusion.


----------



## macbob713

Just to clarify, I agree with the Supreme Court ruling in the Bose case. It preserved our free speech rights. If Bose had won, it would have opened the door to a flood of lawsuits anytime a negative review was written about anything.


----------



## Makiah S

macbob713 said:


> Just to clarify, I agree with the Supreme Court ruling in the Bose case. It preserved our free speech rights. If Bose had won, it would have opened the door to a flood of lawsuits anytime a negative review was written about anything.


 
 another good point


----------



## TripBitShooter

like a dictatorship regime basically...


----------



## Aevum

So Bose is Suing Beats becuase they are trying to take their place in the "expensive headphones that sound like ass for people who know nothing about audio" market ?


----------



## Steve Eddy

macbob713 said:


> Bose won in a lower court ruling...




The lower court rulings are moot in light of the Supreme Court ruling. 

You said "The case went all the way to the US Supreme Court, which vindicated Bose." Anyone reading this would come to conclude that Bose prevailed in the Supreme Court. They did not. I just wanted to clarify that.

se


----------



## macbob713

steve eddy said:


> The lower court rulings are moot in light of the Supreme Court ruling.
> 
> You said "The case went all the way to the US Supreme Court, which vindicated Bose." Anyone reading this would come to conclude that Bose prevailed in the Supreme Court. They did not. I just wanted to clarify that.
> 
> se



If you read my previous 2 posts I did clarify that. Moot point indeed.


----------



## Pickaxe

aevum said:


> So Bose is Suing Beats becuase they are trying to take their place in the "expensive headphones that sound like ass for people who know nothing about audio" market ?


 

 What are you talking about? They're not suing Ultrasone.


----------



## DisCHORDDubstep

pickaxe said:


> What are you talking about? They're not suing Ultrasone.


lol. Ultrasone makes some decent stuff. The sig DJ's for example are very good. But I guess its opinion.


----------



## Blinxat

Looks like Bose finally reveals some product specifications otherwise never found on any box ever.


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

blinxat said:


> Looks like Bose finally reveals some product specifications otherwise never found on any box ever.


 
  
 LOL! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Well put, serves em right...


----------



## cb3723

aevum said:


> So Bose is Suing Beats becuase they are trying to take their place in the "expensive headphones that sound like ass for people who know nothing about audio" market ?




*Butt* what's your point? 

Hope you ain't trying to *rear end *this thread...




Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



[VIDEO]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kY84MRnxVzo[/VIDEO]



Ok, I'm done rear here


----------



## catspaw

jude said:


> ​
> 
> 
> By now, most of you probably know that Apple recently acquired Beats for around $3 billion, so some may find the timing of Bose's lawsuit *interesting*.


 
 Thats not the word Id use. Same thing happened when Oculus VR was purchased by Facebook, and a lawsuit landed by Zenimax if i Recall correctly. (Fun fact here, the guy who originally started the VR did so with kickstarter money, and then he sold it to FB for 3 billion along with his partners that invested in the project as well. You draw your own conclusions here).


----------



## Kdavis71

kimvictor said:


> Intriguing. I always thought Bose had the best ANC technology ever(though Sony and few other manufacturers are getting much better nowadays). I honestly can see why Bose would defend their technology fiercely. It's one of their only major selling points. Though the timing is bit awkward to be honest. Apple is not going to be easy to fight against. Even other giant companies(ahm... Samsung perhaps) are having great difficulty fighting Apple in law suits.


 
  
 Ya I agree. Also it is quite hard to fight Apple and it seems they are paying off the government too. I remember one of the suits between Samsung vs Apple was going on and Samsung actually won the suit but Obama overruled Apple's punishment.


----------



## Ixeling

uli87 said:


> Boseats
> 
> Yeah.. then merge the two to create the most horrific thing known to audio enthusiasts - Boseats
> 
> I thought the Bose Triports were all that back in the day. I took good care of them and still have them with me today. Pretty bad.



Beasts


----------



## thatBeatsguy

ixeling said:


> Beasts


 
 Boats could also work.


----------



## StanD

thatbeatsguy said:


> Boats could also work.


 
 I'm sure that Apple is busy trademarking all of these suggestions. Of course they will prefix each with an "i" to better distinguish their brand.


----------



## Failuyr

This doesn't sound like a patent-troll. ANC takes legitimate implementation to work properly, and if the design was copied (which I am not able to judge, but I'll give Bose the benefit of the doubt) then I can see this as a proper use of the patent system. The purpose of a patent is to give the creator(s) of a technology the rights, UNLESS its implemented differently. If Beats did copy Bose's patented implementation, I have no problem with the lawsuit.

 It's not like being sued for having rounded corners on a smartphone.


----------



## DisCHORDDubstep

failuyr said:


> This doesn't sound like a patent-troll. ANC takes legitimate implementation to work properly, and if the design was copied (which I am not able to judge, but I'll give Bose the benefit of the doubt) then I can see this as a proper use of the patent system. The purpose of a patent is to give the creator(s) of a technology the rights, UNLESS its implemented differently. If Beats did copy Bose's patented implementation, I have no problem with the lawsuit.
> 
> 
> It's not like being sued for having rounded corners on a smartphone.


----------



## cb3723

thatbeatsguy said:


> Boats could also work.







It's the future - just like garlic bread was once - now everybody's eating the stuff


[VIDEO]http://youtu.be/Im29hIq-WRw[/VIDEO]​


----------



## StanD

cb3723 said:


> It's the future - just like garlic bread was once - now everybody's eating the stuff
> ​


 
 If it doesn't work out, it'll be Apple gets Beat by Dre and the shareholders get mad as $3B would have made a nice dividend.


----------



## Armaegis

Bose by Dre?


----------



## cb3723

armaegis said:


> Bose by Dre?




This could be good material for your next lol stand up comedy video 

Do you have any more? - I could do with a good laugh - the one I've watched of you was hilarious - lol - see? I'm even lolling just thinking about it...lol (I can't stop )


----------



## catspaw

Beated by Dre, iBose.


----------



## GREQ

catspaw said:


> Beated by Dre, iBose.


 
 Not unless bose win's the lawsuit.
 Then it's Beaten by Bose...


----------



## cb3723

Is it just me & hifiguy528 who think these "mint" streak themed Bose cans look pretty cool? (get it - mint - cool? never mind)


http://youtu.be/strU7wsl-U8


----------



## GREQ

I don't like them... but this is coming from a guy who's been wearing an AKG K140 in public the past 2 days.


----------



## TripBitShooter

lol i wore an sennheiser HD 239 in public once. I do think the new bose soundtrue mint streaked cans look cool. If they really sound true (get it, get it?) then that is even better


----------



## JHern

Apple can probably cut a deal, after all they have been ripped off more than just about any other company in history. The benefit to them is to limit bad publicity and avoid the appearance of being hypocrites when it comes to honoring patents.


----------



## cb3723

Maybe Bose should licence their advanced *algorithm's they apparently use to such superior effect in their patented ANC technology?

*I got this offa Tyll Hertsens seminal classic YouTube video "A comparitive review of *High End* Noise Cancelling Headphones"

I call this video a "seminal classic" as Tyll gives dues to both Bose & Beats respectively 


[VIDEO]http://youtu.be/YDPVryZ773w[/VIDEO]​
Jump to 1min 7 secs in Tyll's video for his mention of algorithms used in the Bose QuietComfort 15's.

Also note that Beats Studio (the original model) are included in this "High End" review and Tyll even comments that the Studios hold their own and are pretty good - now that's decent praise from a headcan guru and much respected member of the head-fi and pro audio community at large 

But yeah, it seems to me that perhaps Bose are at the beginning of a wave of competing brands looking for ways to up their ANC game to Bose's sophistication, so why not just licence it out and cash in?

Maybe if Tyll picks up this thread, he could offer some of his own insight into this Bose Vs Beats law suit?

Tyll - you out there? 


*BOSE QuietComfort 15's as worn by Tyll Hertsens - "algorithms"*





*(Bose QC15's) "noise cancelling is UN-BELIEVABLE "
"and the sound is quite good"*
_Tyll Hertsens 2012_​


----------



## Tyll Hertsens

Yes, I'm here. I've got some Beats Studio 2 in-house. The noise canceling seems better than the old Studio but I find it not as good as Bose.
  
 It's also got some issues that I'll go into in the review that make me think they don't quite have their poop in a group on the noise canceling front.
  
 If there is patent infringement, it's likely a very complex argument on the details of the circuit and algorithm design.
  
 If the case does go to trial, we'll probably learn a lot about Bose headphones...though I suppose one could just go read all the patents.


----------



## cb3723

tyll hertsens said:


> Yes, I'm here. I've got some Beats Studio 2 in-house. The noise canceling seems better than the old Studio but I find it not as good as Bose.
> 
> It's also got some issues that I'll go into in the review that make me think they don't quite have their poop in a group on the noise canceling front.
> 
> ...




OMGosh! 

The King has entered the building! *RESPECT!*

*lets get my fanboying outta the way here*

Thanks man - for everything you do - much appreciated 

​
Yeah, I totally agree that beats ANC is nowhere near Bose's - by a large degree. 

But surely Bose keep their algorithm's under wraps and out of sight and a legal battle would be counter productive if they were brought out into the open for other brands to tweak a little here and there to circumvent Bose's patent protection?

I first heard Bose's ANC when in my local Apple store, they had a pair of QuietComfort 15's out on display to try, so I was intrigued to check them out after watching your comparative review video. They were turned on without any music playing through them, just the ANC function, which you will also know functions without plugging in the audio cable so can be used wireless if you just want silence no music, and as soon as I put them on I was blown away and as you said as closing remark on your video - they truly are "unbelievable" - like the world went into mute. I stood there like an idiot for about 10mins just putting them on and off amazed by how the world (or white noise of the store) just went silent like nothing I'd experienced before from a headphone, needless to say I bought a pair, probably to the relief of Apple store staff who probably thought I was going to do a runner out of the store with the QC15's at any minute due to how long I was checking them 

As for the beats Studio 2.0's ANC - I think that the natural seal of the earcups (passive noise isolation?) add to a generally lack lustre ANC, and they are no way near Bose's level of performance, but what other headphone does? But all in all the Studios do offer some ANC which is ok, and I appreciate their new and improved sound signature for sure 

But at the risk of going off topic here - Tyll, what's your honest opinion of beats new range if headphones such as the Studio 2.0's, the Studio wireless, beats mixr's, solo2's?

IMO, these cans rock and I just don't understand the schiit they receive - especially from v-moda 100 lovers and similar as that "fun" sound signature is well within the beats sound ball park, though I readily admit that beats are a tad overpriced, but they are the only headphone brand also regarded as a lifestyle brand.

Beats are what got me into this hobby and I still appreciate their sound signature but they continue to be the whipping boy here and a lot of other places, which I personally disagree with strongly and when getting into heated debate over, always get my ass kicked.

Believe me when I say, there are a lot more folks like me only keeping their mouths shut in fear of ridicule, which is a shame as this is a headphone and audio enthusiasts site where surely all brands should be allowed their place without prejudice?

I keep pimping this video but even that gets shot down  (you probably know "part time audiophile" guy - he's in the industry too as a audiophile journalist and also writes for http://audio360.org)


[VIDEO]http://youtu.be/FMcyEz13t1Q[/VIDEO]​
I don't oppose others opinions, but some of the beats criticism here and other places is so disproportionate it's crazy making.

Believe me when I say that I'm not trying to ambush you into a beats Vs the world scenario - just people who command the kind of respect that you do make people take note far more than the likes of I could ever do.

Many thanks for making reply to this Beats Vs Bose thread and I look forward to any further comments on it and any you make on the other points I raise.

RESPECT 




Thank you sir


----------



## Failuyr

cb3723 said:


> But surely Bose keep their algorithm's under wraps and out of sight and a legal battle would be counter productive if they were brought out into the open for other brands to tweak a little here and there to circumvent Bose's patent protection?


 
 I'm by no means a patent expert, but my understanding of the way the protection works is competitors have to find a new way to achieve the same results in order for it to not break a patent. I don't think small tweaks would pass as a new method. That's just my understanding, and it might not be actual.


----------



## cb3723

failuyr said:


> I'm by no means a patent expert, but my understanding of the way the protection works is competitors have to find a new way to achieve the same results in order for it to not break a patent. I don't think small tweaks would pass as a new method. That's just my understanding, and it might not be actual.




Yeah, maybe, I just remember some case years ago (my memory fails me to specifics) which ended up being thrown out of court as the company who had filed refused to divulge certain technical attributes to whatever it was they were looking to protect.

I know this is sketchy and very vague, but it's where my point came from - as you may have gathered I'm no lawyer either - lol 

edit: I wonder what/if the outcome of Beats Vs Yamaha was? Though IMO beats had a good case as the Yamaha Pro 500 were clearly modelled on the original beats Studio cans it is comical, though the Pro 500's are seriously superb bass canon headphones.

Maybe the fact that the Pro 500's are currently being sold off online at massive discounts is an indication that Yamaha lost the case?



Spoiler


































LOL ​


----------



## phara0hseye

Here, two companies for which I have neither affinity nor allegiance are thrust into a litigious situation over what? Two awful sounding technologies. Neither company makes anything worth what they charge. They should file,suits against each other for successfully lying to consumers about the efficacy of their products in the first place. This stokes my ire for both.


----------



## cb3723

phara0hseye said:


> Here, two companies for which I have neither affinity nor allegiance are thrust into a litigious situation over what? Two awful sounding technologies. Neither company makes anything worth what they charge. They should file,suits against each other for successfully lying to consumers about the efficacy of their products in the first place. This stokes my ire for both.




Have you checked Bose's ANC on headphones like their QuietComfort15's?

It's the best in the world, bar none - boom! - and the worlds on mute 

Once you've tried it and realise just how good it is, it makes sense that Bose would defend it's patents on their tech that produces such remarkable ANC, as it naturally gives them a massive competitive edge for consumers that are looking for this function specifically. (http://brandsaudit.wordpress.com/the-headphones-market/)

And if you didn't already know this :




Spoiler







lol  - only joking ​



http://brandsaudit.wordpress.com/bose-headphone/


----------



## phara0hseye (May 3, 2020)

Yes. And quite honestly, I'm not that impressed. Awful sounding audio, at a premium price, is the compromise and for me that makes it simply not worth their weight. A good pair of IEMs and the world disappears just as well, with steal clad sonic performance in tact. Bose can keep their whole line of mediocre products. Patents and all.


----------



## cb3723

phara0hseye said:


> Yes. And quite honestly, I'm not that impressed. Awful sounding audio, at a premium price, is the compromise and for me that makes it simply not worth the quiet. A good pair of IEMs and the world disappears just as well, with steal lad sonic performance in tact. Bose can keep their whole line of mediocre products. Patents and all.




What IEM's do you use personally or would recommend as an alternative to headphones with ANC if you don't mind me asking out of genuine interest? 

Maybe its a shame that Bose's SQ when playing music through their headcans isn't as sophisticated and level of quality as their ANC, however, I don't find the QC15's as having a particularly bad sound signature at all, maybe just a little bland.

But I know for sure that I purchased the QC15's on the strength of their ANC feature being so amazing, if faced with these headphones as just a stand alone headphone without their ANC feature, I wouldn't have bought them, so perhaps this is in line with just how protective Bose are in defending the tech that gives these headphones their unique selling point.

FWIW, I tend to agree with this review below as he describes the SQ of the Bose Sound True on ear headphones, which IMO, pretty much sums up Bose's headphones SQ in general , for me anyway. 


[VIDEO]http://youtu.be/qfnwUiUwiqs[/VIDEO]​
edit: this video appears to be subtitled, but why would anyone who is deaf want to watch a headphone review video? Meh...


----------



## MacedonianHero

tyll hertsens said:


> Yes, I'm here. I've got some Beats Studio 2 in-house. The noise canceling seems better than the old Studio but I find it not as good as Bose.
> 
> It's also got some issues that I'll go into in the review that make me think they don't quite have their poop in a group on the noise canceling front.
> 
> ...


 
  
 My take is a little more skeptical...basically Dr. Dre and Iovine have a lot of $$$ riding on the Apple sale and Bose knows this. So they're throwing this at them at this particular time to get a settlement. Bose likely has zero plans on taking this to court. Beats wants this to go away to allow the acquisition to continue normally. Basically a kind of patent-infringement blackmail. They're trying to get a cut of the billions that Apple is going to pay, nothing more, nothing less. Their timing is very "opportunistic".


----------



## cb3723

macedonianhero said:


> My take is a little more skeptical...basically Dr. Dre and Iovine have a lot of $$$ riding on the Apple sale and Bose knows this. So they're throwing this at them at this particular time to get a settlement. Bose likely has zero plans on taking this to court. Beats wants this to go away to allow the acquisition to continue normally. Basically a kind of patent-infringement blackmail. They're trying to get a cut of the billions that Apple is going to pay, nothing more, nothing less. Their timing is very "opportunistic".




But isn't the deal already done and dusted between beats and Apple?

One reason that I don't think anyone has mentioned yet regarding why Bose are actively bringing beats to court, is that beats already have history of aggressively pursuing Bose's core customer base, with the release of the beats executive.

The executive as name suggests is aimed at such and who travel in the course of their business. Bose appear to have had this market sewn up unchallenged, then beats make a lunge for a slice of the young to middle aged business sector, and now they may have infringed on Bose's ANC patents - no guessing which model of beats any improved ANC would be utilised into first.

Bose are under no ambiguity that beats have their sights aimed on business sector and key to this is quality ANC, which the current model of beats executive doesn't match up to Bose's standard by a long shot. No wonder Bose are looking to protect their ANC patents - if a company like beats now owned by Apple were left unchallenged, Bose could lose their ANC market overnight.


​
One advantage the beats executive headphone has over it's Bose counterpart is it's robustness. The executive has aluminium headband and arms and folds into a small neat convenient form in its travel/storage case.

The Bose QC15 are in comparison to the beats executive, fragile feeling when handled and require careful use. The Bose would almost certainly get damaged if thrown into a messenger bag without being put in its protective storage case which is larger than the beats executives, so less convenient.


----------



## MacedonianHero

cb3723 said:


> But isn't the deal already done and dusted between beats and Apple?
> 
> One reason that I don't think anyone has mentioned yet regarding why Bose are actively bringing beats to court, is that beats already have history of aggressively pursuing Bose's core customer base, with the release of the beats executive.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I don't think it's done...thus Bose's last second ditch effort. It was supposed to be completed by year's end. Someone, please correct me if I'm wrong.
  
 I'm fairly familiar with the Beats Executive and QC15s, you can read my thoughts on them here:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/672743/comparisons-19-of-the-top-closed-portable-headphones-around
  
 The Executives from last year had a horrible hiss that killed them right off the bat. Luckily, I've heard a few pair this year and I can confirm that this problem is fixed on newer models. And by looks alone, the Executive mop the floor with the pedestrian QC15s.


----------



## cb3723

macedonianhero said:


> I don't think it's done...thus Bose's last second ditch effort. It was supposed to be completed by year's end. Someone, please correct me if I'm wrong.
> 
> I'm fairly familiar with the Beats Executive and QC15s, you can read my thoughts on them here:
> 
> ...




M8! 

Your link to your review is most excellent indeed - I've just read up on your executive impressions and thoroughly enjoyed it 

A quick scroll down the page and you cover a host of portables that interest me such as the KEF M500, Martin Logan Mikros 90s and B&O HE6 to name but a few 

And - what a refreshing change to read a positive beats headphone review from someone who isn't afraid to tell it as it is (IMO)  - sorry to keep bleating on about that - lol 

Excellent stuff for sure - thanks for sharing - I'll be spending some time reading your portable can reviews for sure


----------



## MacedonianHero

cb3723 said:


> M8!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks man.


----------



## HiFiGuy528

cb3723 said:


> Is it just me & hifiguy528 who think these "mint" streak themed Bose cans look pretty cool? (get it - mint - cool? never mind)
> 
> 
> http://youtu.be/strU7wsl-U8


 
  
 Those are actually decent sounding headphones.  I'm using them right now on my Woo Audio WA6 tube amp.  LOL... #OverKill


----------



## Makiah S

aevum said:


> So Bose is Suing Beats becuase they are trying to take their place in the "expensive headphones that sound like ass for people who know nothing about audio" market ?


 
 and yea pretty much, lol I love your desciption of that market too 
  


pickaxe said:


> What are you talking about? They're not suing Ultrasone.


 
 Lawl good point


----------



## cb3723

mshenay said:


> and yea pretty much, lol I love your desciption of that market too
> 
> Lawl good point




What is this - brand bashing thread?

I own Bose beats & Ultrasone cans and am welling up trying to hold back my tears because of your hurtful comments *sob* 

But seriously dudes - brand bashing is just the ultimate DERP! 


​


----------



## Makiah S

cb3723 said:


> What is this - brand bashing thread?
> 
> I own Bose beats & Ultrasone cans and am welling up trying to hold back my tears because of your hurtful comments *sob*
> 
> ...


 
 Of course not, but to some extent yea
  
 Nothing agains't ultrasone, other than the price of thier cans has gotten silly here in the US, the pro 900 used to be about $300 USD New 2 years back, when the DT 990 Pro is still $150 New, and the PRo 900 is like $500 new... yea some bashing is in order imo
  
 as for Bose, they have some AWESOME ANC... 
  
 ehm how ever, It'll be nice to see how this law suit works out


----------



## cb3723

mshenay said:


> Of course not, but to some extent yea
> 
> Nothing agains't ultrasone, other than the price of thier cans has gotten silly here in the US, the pro 900 used to be about $300 USD New 2 years back, when the DT 990 Pro is still $150 New, and the PRo 900 is like $500 new... yea some bashing is in order imo
> 
> ...




I won't feel better unless you say something genuinely nice about beats without any sarcasm


----------



## Makiah S

cb3723 said:


> I won't feel better unless you say something genuinely nice about beats without any sarcasm


 
 Oh in all honestly, I liked the Beats Solo, the little 40mm cans. When I had my XB 700 back in teh day, I found the Solo to be on par with it, with the benifit of being smaller and a little better looking, ofc my XB 700 was uhh $80 new? The solos like $200, but the price of good looks and function seemed mandated


----------



## cb3723

mshenay said:


> Oh in all honestly, I liked the Beats Solo, the little 40mm cans. When I had my XB 700 back in teh day, I found the Solo to be on par with it, with the benifit of being smaller and a little better looking, ofc my XB 700 was uhh $80 new? The solos like $200, but the price of good looks and function seemed mandated






Brofist  awesome!​


----------



## GREQ

Don't do it, he's actually trying to get revenge by making you break your own computer screen.


----------



## cb3723

Is it true that Tyll lives in a place called Boseman in the States?

"Bose-man"

The Bose man, the man from Bose...

Is this coincidence or an omen or nothing?

He likes the QC15 a lot (mainly the ANC)

Maybe it's just a bump in the freakies response chart of life? lol 

He may not even live there, I thought he was Canadian as I'm sure he did a YTube review video wearing a maple leaf print shirt


----------



## ThePianoMan

It's actually Boze-man, their working on their very own ZQC-15 right now! X D


----------



## TripBitShooter

haha lol. i have been thinking actually, if such great ANC belonged to great headphone companies like Sennheiser, the result would probably be the best sounding ANC can ever


----------



## TripBitShooter

or maybe if the PSB M4U2 had bose's ANC technology??? It would be awesome don't u think


----------



## ThePianoMan

I thought the PSB ANC was alright. Sennheisers was decent too. But Bose is still the best. I really liked the Sennheisers though because passive noise isolation is great. Not that I ever have much use for ANC or even closed cans.


----------



## TripBitShooter

i love the PSB M4U1 for the price.


----------



## ThePianoMan

I thought the M4U1 was one of the best consumer oriented headphones at its price point. Looks good, sounds balanced, decent comfort. Good isolation for how soft the pads are. I've recommended it to more than a few people.


----------



## cb3723

thepianoman said:


> It's actually Boze-man, their working on their very own ZQC-15 right now! X D








tripbitshooter said:


> i love the PSB M4U1 for the price.







thepianoman said:


> I thought the M4U1 was one of the best consumer oriented headphones at its price point. Looks good, sounds balanced, decent comfort. Good isolation for how soft the pads are. I've recommended it to more than a few people.




I've never heard the PSB M4U1, but it seems to get glowing reviews.

I do have the excellent closed back NAD VISO HP50 which I believe originate from the same guy behind the M4U1's, Paul Barton?

The HP50's seem to benefit quite a bit with an amp, is this the case with the M4U1's too?


----------



## ThePianoMan

cb3723 said:


> I've never heard the PSB M4U1, but it seems to get glowing reviews.
> 
> I do have the excellent closed back NAD VISO HP50 which I believe originate from the same guy behind the M4U1's, Paul Barton?
> 
> The HP50's seem to benefit quite a bit with an amp, is this the case with the M4U1's too?


 
  
 The PSB is a more forward signature than the HP50. I'd say the NAD probably gets more out of an amp. They are both done by Paul Barton. Similar flavors, IMO, I can certainly see the hand of Paul Barton in both of them.
  
 The sound is quite nice, though closed, consumer-oriented headphones that sound "nice" with a fair tilt towards warmth and laid-back sig just don't do much for me anymore, after I discovered "audiophile" oriented cans. Nice stuff to be sure though. Easy to listen to.
  
 Happy Listening


----------



## TripBitShooter

lol i have both the PSB M4U1 an Nad Viso HP50. The Nad has a warmer, slightly richer tilt with still excellent mids and treble while the PSB M4U1 is more neutral. My HD 800 serve me well for audiophile purposes


----------



## TripBitShooter

to me all headphones sound better with an amp, only depends on how much. heck anything out of my fiio E18


----------



## TripBitShooter

same goes for sources


----------



## ThePianoMan

^ I agree with everything you just said.


----------



## Makiah S

thepianoman said:


> ^ I agree with everything you just said.


 
 me too, the reason everything sounds better from an amp for me, has to do with signal quality. 9/10 your E18 is going to be better than any consumer grade music player, now some of the Audio Phile Daps aren't too bad, but even then, like my hm801 the on board amp sounds like schiit, the on board Dac souds glorious, I feed taht epic dac signal into my balanced amp and it's heavenly
  
 so beacuse all in one units have to make comprises to have "more function" I usually find it's best to seperate the sound as best I can, seperate Dac, Amp fed into a can
  
 but this is talkinga bout portables
  
 I have a GIANT and stupid heavy Audio GD combo unit that sounds great, but it's like 35lbs or something stupid, and rather large. Pretty sure KingWa didn't scarfice to much during the build lol


----------



## ThePianoMan

Hahaha, agreed Mshenay. And the E18 putts a surprising amount of kick into cans. 320mw at 32 ohms or something like that?
  
 (btw, do you use an E18 with beyer DT880's? I'm thinking of that combo but haven't heard much about)
  
 An amp with 100 mw of clean, beautiful power is better than 5 Watts of class D, op-amp, oscillating, crummy voltage with interference any day.
  
 I'd love to try get an Audio-gd amp, even just a compass 2, but a dorm room and college budget just doesn't allow for it!
  
 Happy Listening


----------



## TripBitShooter

i hate class D amps for my speakers. i prefer digital ones.


----------



## davidsh

What do you mean by digital ones?


----------



## Bansaku

tripbitshooter said:


> i hate class D amps for my speakers. i prefer digital ones.


 
  
 Uhm, 'digital' ?  There is no such thing as a true digital amp (I know of Tripath's chip quite well). Class D/T are often (wrongly) called 'digital' because they can be digitally controlled. Some amps are just more digital than others.


----------



## DisCHORDDubstep

greq said:


> I don't like them... but this is coming from a guy who's been wearing an AKG K140 in public the past 2 days.


akg k240 everyday for me lol.


----------



## DisCHORDDubstep

cb3723 said:


> Brofist  awesome!​


----------



## DisCHORDDubstep

tripbitshooter said:


> haha lol. i have been thinking actually, if such great ANC belonged to great headphone companies like Sennheiser, the result would probably be the best sounding ANC can ever


I'd buy that... Also akg would be good. They seem to be aiming at consumers as of late, namely the K545 etc. Maybe sennheiser or some other company should spend some cash on a technology to "beats" Bose. (bad pun lol) anyways, I think a good idea would be to have some insane sound blocking materials on them that block vibrations, and use an ANC MIC configuration that Bose doesn't own... I say some sound absorbing materials on the inside of the cup to increase spectral decay, and come up with a design that allows it to have a big soundstage and maybe incorporate some of the tech on the hd800 into it, like how the hd800 has the sound waves hit your ears a short time apart, so it gives you a sense of depth and layering... I would buy that most definitely.


----------



## thatBeatsguy

dischorddubstep said:


> I'd buy that... Also akg would be good. They seem to be aiming at consumers as of late, namely the K545 etc. Maybe sennheiser or some other company should spend some cash on a technology to "beats" Bose. (bad pun lol) anyways, I think a good idea would be to have some insane sound blocking materials on them that block vibrations, and use an ANC MIC configuration that Bose doesn't own... I say some sound absorbing materials on the inside of the cup to increase spectral decay, and come up with a design that allows it to have a big soundstage and maybe incorporate some of the tech on the hd800 into it, like how the hd800 has the sound waves hit your ears a short time apart, so it gives you a sense of depth and layering... I would buy that most definitely.


 
 All that = Two. Kilobuck. Can.
  
 And I think you're gonna regret purchasing these babies over your beloved K812.


----------



## DisCHORDDubstep

thatbeatsguy said:


> All that = Two. Kilobuck. Can.
> 
> And I think you're gonna regret purchasing these babies over your beloved K812.


that's not a 2k$ can lol. Does it sound like the idea is 2000$? Nah. It would be about the same as a qc15. I mean, the only technology sennheiser would have to research is the material for blocking sound, (they just need to try different materials lol. Don't really need to invent any. Already a ton out there.) the material for absorbing sound and the texture they apply to the material to get the most out of it, the microphone configuration (wouldnt have to be super good. Just enough to get rid of noise that manages to get through.) and the drivers. Not as much work as researching an Orpheus or K1000 lol.


----------



## thatBeatsguy

dischorddubstep said:


> that's not a 2k$ can lol. Does it sound like the idea is 2000$? Nah. It would be about the same as a qc15. I mean, the only technology sennheiser would have to research is the material for blocking sound, (they just need to try different materials lol. Don't really need to invent any. Already a ton out there.) the material for absorbing sound and the texture they apply to the material to get the most out of it, the microphone configuration (wouldnt have to be super good. Just enough to get rid of noise that manages to get through.) and the drivers. Not as much work as researching an Orpheus or K1000 lol.


 
 Well, I assumed that when you said "incorporating some of the tech from the hd800" you also meant adding the drivers in, so that's pretty much a kilobuck at least.


----------



## Armaegis

bansaku said:


> Uhm, 'digital' ?  There is no such thing as a true digital amp (I know of Tripath's chip quite well). Class D/T are often (wrongly) called 'digital' because they can be digitally controlled. Some amps are just more digital than others.


 
  
 Maybe he means a "power dac"?


----------



## cb3723

tripbitshooter said:


> lol i have both the PSB M4U1 an Nad Viso HP50. The Nad has a warmer, slightly richer tilt with still excellent mids and treble while the PSB M4U1 is more neutral. My HD 800 serve me well for audiophile purposes




What do you use to drive your HD800's?

I use HFM EF-6 - does a pretty good job


----------



## macbob713

For a complete breakdown on the Bose lawsuit, check out the soundandvision.com home page, which breaks it all down and even conducted some real world tests on the 2 brands. There is also a link to the 5 patent infringes Bose has alledged constitutes patent infringement.
As a very frequent traveller, I haven't noticed many Beats headphones on the traveling public. But Bose QC15's are well represented on every flight.


----------



## TripBitShooter

Using FiiO E18 to drive HD 800 as well. Planning to get a proper amp soon. Digital amp is an amp that amplifies the digital signal, not the analogue one.


----------



## goodvibes

jude said:


> I have to largely agree with @macbob713 here, especially with my experience with two of Bose's later products, the *Bose QC15* and the *Bose QC20*.
> 
> While I have noise-canceling over-ears with sound quality I prefer over the QC15, I still haven't heard a commercial over-ear actively cancel more noise than the QC15 (and the louder it gets around you, the better (comparatively) the QC15 sounds). The Bose QC20 actively cancels more noise than any other consumer active noise canceler I've yet used, period; and, again, because of this, the louder it gets around you, the better it can sound compared to most other options. That is, the louder the noise around you (especially, in my opinion, when a lot of that noise is low frequency noise, droning noise), the more dealing with that noise becomes perhaps the most important thing to contend with.
> 
> ...


 

 While I'm not a Bose fan in general due to my view on the performance of their home audio products and somewhat deceiving marketing, I have always thought their noise cancelling headphones and certain sound reinforcement product good and extremely innovative.


----------



## cb3723

jude said:


> I have to largely agree with @macbob713
> here, especially with my experience with two of Bose's later products, the *Bose QC15* and the *Bose QC20*.
> 
> While I have noise-canceling over-ears with sound quality I prefer over the QC15, I still haven't heard a commercial over-ear actively cancel more noise than the QC15 (and the louder it gets around you, the better (comparatively) the QC15 sounds). The Bose QC20 actively cancels more noise than any other consumer active noise canceler I've yet used, period; and, again, because of this, the louder it gets around you, the better it can sound compared to most other options. That is, the louder the noise around you (especially, in my opinion, when a lot of that noise is low frequency noise, droning noise), the more dealing with that noise becomes perhaps the most important thing to contend with.
> ...




I've the QC15 over ear headphones and very impressed with their level of ANC, but not experienced the in ear QC20, so found your comment that these cancel more noise than the QC15.

Is this because the QC20 is in-ear, so by design it will have higher passive noise isolation in addition to its active noise cancellation tech at work, and by what level of degree do you estimate the variance of noise reduction/cancellation between the QC15 & QC20?

There's only one member review on head-fi and reviewer only gives the ANC feature a pretty low score of only 4/10 :confused_face_2:

http://www.head-fi.org/products/bose-quietcomfort-20i-acoustic-noise-cancelling-headphones

This review is of the Apple device compatible QC20 with an added "i" prefix attached, but I guess there wouldn't be any difference between Apple and Android versions of this earphone?


----------



## frix

recently got the QC20, the innerfidelity review is way more spot.
  
 Of course, sound quality is not high-end. But it's a well balanced sound signature
 which feels a little veiled and loses some seperaration when the music is getting very complex.
  
 Theri Noise canceling is impressive and filters out a lot of low freq noise and even voices sound more distant, but don't expect it to cancel out all noise below hearing threshold level.
 That's just not possible today.


----------



## Evshrug

spook76 said:


> You have to be kidding me. Patent law exists to allow investors to reap monopoly rents for a statutory length of time. Without patent law why put in all of the effort, time and money developing new inventions, for the common good? Patent law is so important than it was specifically referenced in the US Constitution back in 1788 in Article I Section 8.




It's hard to know a good solution. On one hand, there is what you say, protect the time and investment out into developing an idea or tech. But on the other hand, the system is often abused and companies make generalized patents on future possible ideas, and squat on the ideas, keeping them as sort of a "nuclear arsenal" to use against other companies (or more likely smaller entities who independently think up a similar idea and make a product without setting up a defense case about why it's different from existing patents) if ever they get too close to releasing a product (or if the squatter company just wants to cash in). I don't know who is in the wrong if great ideas simply never see the light of day.


----------



## Shawn71

audionewbi said:


> Bose and Beats the two products head-fi could not care less about, let them fight, they both made enough money for little good reason. Truth be told.-




+1.....


----------



## Byrnie

Hopefully they both drive each other into the ground.  Wishful thinking on my end


----------



## goropeza

byrnie said:


> Hopefully they both drive each other into the ground.  Wishful thinking on my end


 
 Yeah pretty much. Combined those 2 have enough money to use the Supreme Court as their own personal hotel for 10 years.


----------



## ThePianoMan

I actually hope that this ends quickly and cleanly for all involved. Firstly because it costs us, the taxpayers, money. 

Secondly, because Bose and Beats have done more for the current popularity of headphones (and I would argue loudspeakers) than any company in the last 1-2 decades. Beats started the current headphone renaissance. Whether we like it or not, that's a big part of the reason head-fi is as big as it is today. Now, I'm no fan of beats, BUT, I will say that I know dozens of kids who bought a pair of beats, and later strolled over to head-fi or best buys Magnus headphone section, and had their eyes opened. And the same people who then bought their first pair of Audioengines. Then Klipsch. Before you know it, they're looking at full blown loudspeakers and bookshelves, hanging around in high-end shops. 
I was introduced to headphones by skull candy (a gift from as relative) then progressed to B&W, and now I'm on Grados and Beyers. Of course, I was into loudspeakers before that, but you can see the progression. 
Getting headphone brands mainstream recognition is incredible, and I'm grateful for that. Beats newest headphones aren't half bad IMO. I wouldn't but them, and I still think they're overpriced, but they don't sound godawful like the older ones. Bosedoes not sound particularly good to my ears, but neither does it sound awful. And the ANC Bose has developed is truly above all other options. Again, I wouldn't buy it, and it's overpriced, but look what it's done for the industry. I don't know that we'd have things like the HD800, Audeze headphones, and He-6 without the headphone crazy introducing so many new members to head-fidom. And I seriously doubt we'd have the array of great value, mid-low-fi selections we currently have. 

So instead of bashing, and hating, let's hope there are more converts from this publicity, because that helps our side of the industry. 

Happy Listening!


----------



## DisCHORDDubstep

thepianoman said:


> I actually hope that this ends quickly and cleanly for all involved. Firstly because it costs us, the taxpayers, money.
> 
> Secondly, because Bose and Beats have done more for the current popularity of headphones (and I would argue loudspeakers) than any company in the last 1-2 decades. Beats started the current headphone renaissance. Whether we like it or not, that's a big part of the reason head-fi is as big as it is today. Now, I'm no fan of beats, BUT, I will say that I know dozens of kids who bought a pair of beats, and later strolled over to head-fi or best buys Magnus headphone section, and had their eyes opened. And the same people who then bought their first pair of Audioengines. Then Klipsch. Before you know it, they're looking at full blown loudspeakers and bookshelves, hanging around in high-end shops.
> I was introduced to headphones by skull candy (a gift from as relative) then progressed to B&W, and now I'm on Grados and Beyers. Of course, I was into loudspeakers before that, but you can see the progression.
> ...


that was beautiful man. Lol... So grado and Beyerdynamic? No AKG? People who like one of those three will usually like them all.


----------



## ThePianoMan

dischorddubstep said:


> that was beautiful man. Lol... So grado and Beyerdynamic? No AKG? People who like one of those three will usually like them all.




Thanks! 
I like AKGs as well, I thought the K701 was a beautiful sounding headphone when I tried it. But my budget is tight currently, so only 1 >$300 can at a time right now. 

Happy Listening!


----------



## Byrnie

thepianoman said:


> I actually hope that this ends quickly and cleanly for all involved. Firstly because it costs us, the taxpayers, money.
> 
> Secondly, because Bose and Beats have done more for the current popularity of headphones (and I would argue loudspeakers) than any company in the last 1-2 decades. Beats started the current headphone renaissance. Whether we like it or not, that's a big part of the reason head-fi is as big as it is today. Now, I'm no fan of beats, BUT, I will say that I know dozens of kids who bought a pair of beats, and later strolled over to head-fi or best buys Magnus headphone section, and had their eyes opened. And the same people who then bought their first pair of Audioengines. Then Klipsch. Before you know it, they're looking at full blown loudspeakers and bookshelves, hanging around in high-end shops.
> I was introduced to headphones by skull candy (a gift from as relative) then progressed to B&W, and now I'm on Grados and Beyers. Of course, I was into loudspeakers before that, but you can see the progression.
> ...


 
 I would give that credit to Apple's invention of the iPhone and I really don't like Apple but I gotta give credit where credit's due.  I, for one, hope Apple turns Beats into a solid headphone company.  Beats wasn't even big when the HD800s were released and I'm sure they were already in development years before but I get your point.  I'll admit Beats has brought a lot of attention to headphones but I still think Apple deserves most of the credit and then the rest of the smartphone industry.  I find it hard to celebrate a headphone company as Beats when they made a fortune selling crap headphones at high price (as does Bose with their products.  I disagree about Bose though, I don't think their contribution to ANC was as good as Sonys to my ears.  Just my .02.


----------



## DisCHORDDubstep

byrnie said:


> I would give that credit to Apple's invention of the iPhone and I really don't like Apple but I gotta give credit where credit's due.  I, for one, hope Apple turns Beats into a solid headphone company.  Beats wasn't even big when the HD800s were released and I'm sure they were already in development years before but I get your point.  I'll admit Beats has brought a lot of attention to headphones but I still think Apple deserves most of the credit and then the rest of the smartphone industry.  I find it hard to celebrate a headphone company as Beats when they made a fortune selling crap headphones at high price (as does Bose with their products.  I disagree about Bose though, I don't think their contribution to ANC was as good as Sonys to my ears.  Just my .02.


beats were huge when the hd800 was released in 2009... Beats came out in 2006, and its first headphone came out in late 2008. The hd800 would have come out either way, but i doubt it would have been as popular as it is... And no. Apple iPhone causing headphones to get popular? XD no. Sony Walkmans in the 80's-90's. Mp3 players in the early 2000's. Headphones have been popular ever since... Just not stuff at the 100$+ range. Apple just made a smartphone with a good marketplace, and got popular. They may have been a contributor to the headphone thing, but beats has by far made more audiophiles than apple. Apple made a phone. Back when the iPhone was released people used their Walkmans, mp3 players, and cd players. After the torrent of smartphones, people used those with the ear buds that came with the phone, or the Sony portable crap. Then 2008... Beats makes the first mainstream expensive audio product and boom! We have people thinking 150$ isn't that bad to spend on headphones.


----------



## davidsh

You got it all wrong, I am shure headphones are popular because of the Stax electrostats in the '70s and '80s xD
/jk


----------



## DisCHORDDubstep

davidsh said:


> You got it all wrong, I am shure headphones are popular because of the Stax electrostats in the '70s and '80s xD
> /jk


I know! You see those just EVERYWHERE.


----------



## Byrnie

dischorddubstep said:


> beats were huge when the hd800 was released in 2009... Beats came out in 2006, and its first headphone came out in late 2008. The hd800 would have come out either way, but i doubt it would have been as popular as it is... And no. Apple iPhone causing headphones to get popular? XD no. Sony Walkmans in the 80's-90's. Mp3 players in the early 2000's. Headphones have been popular ever since... Just not stuff at the 100$+ range. Apple just made a smartphone with a good marketplace, and got popular. They may have been a contributor to the headphone thing, but beats has by far made more audiophiles than apple. Apple made a phone. Back when the iPhone was released people used their Walkmans, mp3 players, and cd players. After the torrent of smartphones, people used those with the ear buds that came with the phone, or the Sony portable crap. Then 2008... Beats makes the first mainstream expensive audio product and boom! We have people thinking 150$ isn't that bad to spend on headphones.




The fact that Apple took the phone and combined it with a media player then added the capability of apps to be developed, making it the central hub for ones' portable needs then I yes I think they did make a much larger contribution. If the iPhone hadn't of been created I don't Beats would have been anywhere near as successful which is why I think Apple should given more credit than Beats amd definitely Bose. That's my oponion though.


----------



## GREQ

I'm amazed at how many people believe Apple created the smartphone. 
 All they did was build upon existing ideas that were produced by other companies, but with an improved system, better style and much higher price tag.
  
 All they've really done is dominate an existing market some of the best marketing the world has ever seen.


----------



## TripBitShooter

+1.


----------



## Byrnie

greq said:


> I'm amazed at how many people believe Apple created the smartphone.
> All they did was build upon existing ideas that were produced by other companies, but with an improved system, better style and much higher price tag.
> 
> All they've really done is dominate an existing market some of the best marketing the world has ever seen.



For the record, I know they didn't create the smartphone and if I implied otherwise, it was unintentional.


----------



## GREQ

The record has been amended. Let it be known henceforth that any mistakenly implied ignorance was unintentional and untrue.


----------



## DisCHORDDubstep

byrnie said:


> The fact that Apple took the phone and combined it with a media player then added the capability of apps to be developed, making it the central hub for ones' portable needs then I yes I think they did make a much larger contribution. If the iPhone hadn't of been created I don't Beats would have been anywhere near as successful which is why I think Apple should given more credit than Beats amd definitely Bose. That's my oponion though.


I still think the Sony Walkmans. All apple did was change what people listen to music on.


----------



## Byrnie

dischorddubstep said:


> All apple did was change what people listen to music on.


 
 Yup and I'm saying that had a huge impact on people who previously didn't want to carry multiple devices like a phone and an mp3 player.  Now people who didn't even own (or want to own) an mp3 player before can just use their phone.  Again just my opinion.


----------



## DisCHORDDubstep

byrnie said:


> Yup and I'm saying that had a huge impact on people who previously didn't want to carry multiple devices like a phone and an mp3 player.  Now people who didn't even own (or want to own) an mp3 player before can just use their phone.  Again just my opinion.


dude. Your phone would be a flip phone in your pocket in the early 2000's, and you probably wouldn't have one in the 80's-90's. Walkmans made music portable. IPhone didn't... My opinion too... Except the Walkmans making music portable. That's a true statement.


----------



## GREQ

dischorddubstep said:


> I still think the Sony Walkmans.* All apple did was change what people listen to music on.*


 
 Not at all.
 There were plenty of phones before iPhones that had simple mp3 players.
 All you had to do was upgrade the memory size. The software was already embedded in the OS.
  
 I used to use my Sony Ericsson K750 (2005) as an mp3 player.
 This was a year and a half before the first iPhone (2007), and my K750 certainly wasn't the first phone that could do this.


----------



## Byrnie

dischorddubstep said:


> dude. Your phone would be a flip phone in your pocket in the early 2000's, and you probably wouldn't have one in the 80's-90's. Walkmans made music portable. IPhone didn't... My opinion too... Except the Walkmans making music portable. That's a true statement.


 
 No where have I stated that the iPhone made music portable so I'm not sure where you're trying to take this argument.  In fact, the argument was Beats vs iPhone...  I'm also not sure why you are bringing up flip phones given you didn't explain why...


----------



## jude

greq said:


> I'm amazed at how many people believe Apple created the smartphone...


 
  
 This discussion is off-topic, I know, but I wanted to comment about this (and similar sentiments).
  
 The iPhone was not the first smartphone, agreed. To the best of my knowledge, it was, however, the first of its type, and it changed the direction smartphones were going in. *Who wasn't blown away* after seeing the iPhone press conference? It's easy in the years since to forget that day. The first iPhone was far from perfect (no copy-paste, slow connectivity, etc.), but it was amazing for its time.
  
 A friend of mine was able to buy the first-gen iPhone early on, and the first thing I did was ask him if I could do a pinch-in / pinch-out photo re-size, as I thought perhaps the smooth demo of that function that Jobs was showing in the press conference was a pre-rigged animation, and it turns out it was real. Big deal in a phone now? No. Big deal in a phone then? Yes, absolutely. The things we take for granted now--the _Minority-Report_-type swiping and pinching of windows, objects, and text--was smooth and impressively done with that very first iPhone, despite its other issues. Again, this was new stuff in a phone _then_, and pushed future phones from others to also move in that direction.
  


greq said:


> ...All they did was build upon existing ideas that were produced by other companies, but with an improved system, better style and much higher price tag.
> 
> All they've really done is dominate an existing market some of the best marketing the world has ever seen.


 
  
 There was certainly more than marketing that day. I don't know which companies' ideas they built on, but I do know there was no other phone like the iPhone that I'd ever seen before the day it was unveiled.
  
 My point is not to debate where phones have gone since, or argue what's better now, only to say that the iPhone was beyond merely novel on the day of its announcement.
  
 (I currently own and use an iPhone 5S, Samsung Galaxy S4, Samsung Galaxy Note 3, and iPads.)


----------



## GREQ

jude said:


> There was certainly more than marketing that day. *I don't know which companies' ideas they built on,*.....


 
 My point was more in reference to other existing technologies 
 The tech was there, other companies were already producing simple touch screens for cash registers etc... Apple took the ideas, made their own tech and bundled it with incredibly intuitive controls.
  
 But yeah, generally I agree with your points.
 But did Apple revolutionize portable music? No. Just another stepping stone across the decades.


----------



## cb3723

thepianoman said:


> I actually hope that this ends quickly and cleanly for all involved. Firstly because it costs us, the taxpayers, money.
> 
> Secondly, because Bose and Beats have done more for the current popularity of headphones (and I would argue loudspeakers) than any company in the last 1-2 decades. Beats started the current headphone renaissance. Whether we like it or not, that's a big part of the reason head-fi is as big as it is today. Now, I'm no fan of beats, BUT, I will say that I know dozens of kids who bought a pair of beats, and later strolled over to head-fi or best buys Magnus headphone section, and had their eyes opened. And the same people who then bought their first pair of Audioengines. Then Klipsch. Before you know it, they're looking at full blown loudspeakers and bookshelves, hanging around in high-end shops.
> I was introduced to headphones by skull candy (a gift from as relative) then progressed to B&W, and now I'm on Grados and Beyers. Of course, I was into loudspeakers before that, but you can see the progression.
> ...






News Flash: Beats sound good - same league as v-moda - only difference is perception bias due to perpetual beats bashing


----------



## DisCHORDDubstep

byrnie said:


> No where have I stated that the iPhone made music portable so I'm not sure where you're trying to take this argument.  In fact, the argument was Beats vs iPhone...  I'm also not sure why you are bringing up flip phones given you didn't explain why...


I mean you wouldn't be really using multiple devices. The flip phone stays in your pocket unless you need to make a call. And when they didn't have cell phones, they had the walkman as their only device to carry. I'm saying that the companies making portable tape players back in the 70's-90's made portable headphones a thing. Then beats changed the perception of the public on headphones by having expensive good looking headphones that you can use everyday, everywhere. That made it so that spending $$$ on headphones wasn't so odd in the publics view. Sorry lol for keeping it derailed... Back on topic shall we?


----------



## thatBeatsguy

cb3723 said:


> News Flash: Beats sound good - *same league as v-moda* - only difference is perception bias due to perpetual beats bashing


 
 Same league as V-Moda? Don't know about you, but Studio 2 *>* M-100, hands down.


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## TripBitShooter

i only like the V-moda XS as it is not as bassy as the other V-modas. However it only has mediocre isolation and treble is still lacking in extension despite an improvement over the M80


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## Byrnie

dischorddubstep said:


> I mean you wouldn't be really using multiple devices. The flip phone stays in your pocket unless you need to make a call. And when they didn't have cell phones, they had the walkman as their only device to carry. I'm saying that the companies making portable tape players back in the 70's-90's made portable headphones a thing. Then beats changed the perception of the public on headphones by having expensive good looking headphones that you can use everyday, everywhere. That made it so that spending $$$ on headphones wasn't so odd in the publics view. Sorry lol for keeping it derailed... Back on topic shall we?


 
 Sounds good 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.  We'll just agree to disagree and leave it at that


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## Byrnie

tripbitshooter said:


> i only like the V-moda XS as it is not as bassy as the other V-modas. However it only has mediocre isolation and treble is still lacking in extension despite an improvement over the M80


 
 I'm also of the same mindset with the M100s but I haven't heard the others.


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## TripBitShooter

the only bassy cans i have is the Nad Viso HP50 and the audio technica ATH-WS55X. I only like slight bass emphasis. Just that extra bit of richness. I still prefer neutral sound though


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## cb3723

schwarzchild radius





thatbeatsguy said:


> Same league as V-Moda? Don't know about you, but Studio 2 *>* M-100, hands down.




I own, use and abuse them both and TBH, I don't rate either over the other - it's like ice cream, one flavour from another 

But moving back to topic, maybe beats should counter sue Bose for blatantly copying their monochromatic colour range of cans - sheesh - what a flagrant copy cat move by Bose *edit* you can't patent colours or use to defend intellectual property rights, so Bose can breathe easy....


​
But make no mistake - beats introduced the full spectrum of colours to headphones from the usual black or grey hum drum affairs prior - and brands like Bose followed suit - just not a colour law suit 

GREQ jude

IMO Apple *re-invented* the smartphone with the iPhone in so many ways in form and function and that's why is set the world alight upon its release.

iPhones schwarzschild radius effect was/is ...er...very effective? 

Three common denominators between Beats, Bose & Apple - they all blew the world away in respective fields - Apple, where do you begin with their achievements? Well, start with the iPod which quickly became the worlds default mp3 playback device which paved the way for Beats to revolutionise the headphone world market as an essential item and Bose's ANC = very, very wow, 

With stakes so high all three (or now two) brands are going to highly defend any infringements they deem er...infringed upon - too much global revenue at stake for them not to be breaking a sweat over...:basshead:


[VIDEO]http://youtu.be/nOVJ4m0Q-Cg[/VIDEO​
IMO, APPLE/Beats & Bose all drip with their own respective forms of excellence - I embrace them all


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## prot

jude said:


> ​
> 
> Bose is suing Beats for ...




I was wondering how long it'll take for this to happen. Stoopid ppl always end up beating each other.
 If both those companies end up into lawyers pockets the world of audio should celebrate. Yes both were very good at advertising and bringing audio to masses but they were already handsomely paid for that. Enough is enough. Oh well, one could dream


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## Byrnie

prot said:


> I was wondering how long it'll take for this to happen. Stoopid ppl always end up beating each other.
> If both those companies end up into lawyers pockets the world of audio should celebrate. Yes both were very good at advertising and bringing audio to masses but they were already handsomely paid for that. Enough is enough. Oh well, one could dream


 
 I can definitely agree with that.


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## jazzflav

Yes you're right this is very interesting. It seems like reaching a plateau of success also means more lawsuits. Bose have a variety of infringements working on their side . Can't wait to see how this turns out


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## hession

cb3723 said:


> schwarzchild radius
> I own, use and abuse them both and TBH, I don't rate either over the other - it's like ice cream, one flavour from another
> 
> 
> ...


 

 ^ pretty much this, all of this


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## quluman

Apple is obviously very experienced in dealing with this kind of stuff..


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## singlasing

Backed by Apple, Beats won at the end of day.
  
 LOL
  
Apple reportedly removing Bose products from retail stores as NFL bans & Bose sues Beats  
 http://9to5mac.com/2014/10/10/apple-retail-removing-bose-beats/


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## StanD

singlasing said:


> Backed by Apple, Beats won at the end of day.
> 
> LOL
> 
> ...


 
 Gee, I just looked at Apple's website and they're still selling Bose. I understand that both parties have come to an agreement. They'll probably keep the results private.


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## singlasing

I see that removing Bose from Apple Store is a kind of revenge, or business move? LOL
  
 Apple is still the leader in the industry.
  
 Since it takes some time to remove the stock out of Apple Store, I guess we cannot see Bose in the store very soon..
  
 what a pity


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## StanD

singlasing said:


> I see that removing Bose from Apple Store is a kind of revenge, or business move? LOL
> 
> Apple is still the leader in the industry.
> 
> ...


 
 You can still see it there right now.


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## MedMan

Interesting to see what this will do to Apple


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## AnakChan

medman said:


> Interesting to see what this will do to Apple


 
  
 Maybe replace Bose with Alpine headphones in their stores??

 http://www.engadget.com/2014/10/17/alpines-headphones/


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## DisCHORDDubstep

anakchan said:


> Maybe replace Bose with Alpine headphones in their stores??
> 
> http://www.engadget.com/2014/10/17/alpines-headphones/


Awww... I was hoping they'd start stocking AKG K545's, Beyerdynamic T51p's, and Audio Technica ATH-ESW9's!... One can only dream.


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## Gilly87

Yeah but the settlement will be a lot bigger if they're suing Apple. Looks like it could be a slam dunk if they play their cards right.
  
 Quote:


invisiblekid said:


> To get publicity sure, but while Beats had plenty of $$$ if I were Bose, I'd rather be up against them on their own rather than their brand new owners with more money than God.


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## scansp7

What dont they just spend this time effort and money and put into R&D so they can bring a better product to the consumer...


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## DAMX

Over the years Bose has brought truly innovative products to the market while Beats just preyed on the mind of the masses for the sole purpose to make two dudes very very rich. So the only regret I have is that Apple will pay instead of those two ...that if Bose wins....


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## Gilly87

Maybe it will drive their already-overblown prices up enough to make regular people do their research and buy GOOD GEAR!!! XD
  
 Imagine that...
  
 Quote:


rpgwizard said:


> Man, do I hate these U.S. patent laws. It hurts us costumers. Patenting things like that is madness.


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## 007shark76

Bose is a sue happy company anyways. I can remember when they sued a non-profit organization that they were apart of, CEDIA, for using the word Lifestyle in marketing materials. Bose lost thankfully.
  
 I wouldn't mind if Bose went bankrupt tomorrow. No highs, no lows - must be Bose.


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