# Best efficient speakers?



## Asterix

I need really good, efficient speakers to pair with my Luxman 30 watt tube integrated amp. I am currently using Vandersteen 1C's, which produce excellent sound but I cannot turn them up loud enough (without clipping) to satisfy my ear. Any suggestions in the $1000-$1500 (or less) price range? Thanks.


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## Necros

IMO I would replace the amp, or add a poweramp...instead of replacing the speakers.

 If you really want to replace the speakers, checkout horns..JBL, Klipsch, Avant Garde etc. Horns design are usually much higher sensitivity (therefore at any given output from the amp it's louder than a speaker with lower sensivity)

 btw I have speakers between 86-91dB 1W @ 1M, and have no problems with 60W-100W poweramps (into 8ohm spec)


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## ooheadsoo

There aren't many good speakers (if you're looking for flat frequency response) that are efficient due to some inherent engineering challenges in speaker design. What is known as baffle step (a rise in spl caused by the baffle of the speaker that starts somewhere in the vicinity of the upperbass depending on the width of the baffle) requires the crossover to damp the response of the speaker down. Thus, without expensive engineering tricks, good speakers tend to be of medium efficiency or less. 

 Horns are efficient but a horn tweeter doesn't make that much sense to me (ala klipsch.) After all, the tweeter must be damped down to match the sensitivity of the woofer. The entire speaker needs to be in a horn to increase efficiency evenly. However, like a bullhorn, horns have their own problems in the frequency response and dispersion domains.

 That said, I don't think you need really efficient speakers, it's just that your vandersteens are a ridiculously difficult load. Some average or even slightly below average sensitivity speakers should suit your needs. I've got things I have my eye on if I had your budget...but they're not especially high efficiency.


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## tennisets

I don't think you really need high efficiency speakers. As ooheadsoo said, Vandersteens are just a very difficult load for an amplifier. With 30 watts you should be fine with speakers 87 dB efficient or above, provided their impedance/phase angle curves are relatively benign.

 If you still want to pursue high efficiency speakers, look at Omega speakers (www.omegaloudspeakers.com). They reportedly sound very good, and if there isn't a dealer in your area there is a 30 day trial period, so you don't have to worry about buying without auditioning. You can get their top model for less than $1500. Actually, Lou (the owner/operator/designer for Omega) is about to release the Minuet. It's a 1.5 way speakers that is supposed to sound VERY good, with about 90 dB efficiency.

 Also look at Audio Note speakers. I've heard them so I can vouch for their sound quality. You should give them a listen if you can, they're very, very good.

 As another alternative, if you really like your Vandersteens, you would have a much easier time keeping the sound signature you like by going to a different amp.

 As you can see, there are numerous possibilities available, most of them good.

 Good luck in your speaker/amplifier search!


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## ooheadsoo

Here's one I would consider: http://selahaudio.com/id46.html


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## Nak Man

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ooheadsoo* 
_Here's one I would consider: http://selahaudio.com/id46.html_

 

Thanks for the baffle step info, ooheadsoo. And that's a yummy looking ribbon monitor with *OMG* response ! Have you tried them ?


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## bundee1

I think you might do well with Triangle Comete speakers. Hi efficiency and detailed sound. I think they go for around $400.


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## ooheadsoo

Well, you should see the response of my diy speakers: http://murphyblaster.com/content.php?f=MBOW1.html

 However, their efficiency is a little below average, though the impedance is very unremarkable (good thing.) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Look at the reverse nulls of Dennis Murphy's designs. They are sheer beauty.

 There's lots of good stuff once you get into diy. IMO, much less bs than in the commercial audio world. Rick Craig's kits sell for barely more than the parts, which is the amazing thing. Really, it's just the price of the parts with the xover given away for close to nothing.

 I haven't tried the SA-1 personally, but Rick Craig, the designer, has a solid rep in the diy community. I came close to auditioning them. Rick sent the speakers to the local audiocircle group for auditioning, but it was a bit far for me and I couldn't make it.

 Here is my speaker prebuilt in museum quality cabinetry. http://www.salksound.com/MBOW1.html 
 Sensitivity is around 85-86db, however. 

 One other thing to keep in mind about the rated sensitivity of commercial speakers is that the companies _LIE THROUGH THEIR TEETH._


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## F1GTR

I have some vintage 70's Klipschorns and I can't get enough of them.

 104db @ 1 watt/ 1 meter


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## oymo

I would highly recommend any of the Omega speakers. I currently have the Super 3:

www.omegaloudspeakers.com

 Check out a review of it:

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/omega2/super3.html

 I drive mine with a pair of Quicksilver Mini Mites, only rated at 25 watts, in a 14x14 room, and they get plently loud. 

 At times I wish they had more bass, but they are flat to ~55Hz, and roll of to -13db at 31Hz according to the review above. I might get a sub to mate with them, but its definitely not necessary.

 For $549, its a steal.


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## Asterix

I talked to someone today who said I need 95db into 4 ohms sensitivity, preferably horns. Does this sound right for the Luxman LX-33 30 watt tube amp?


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## ooheadsoo

That sounds insane.


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## pne

wow. it depends on what music you listen to really. Check out Triangle, they're a french brand with most of their espirit lineup being 92db efficient. I run 100 watt 3 way zerius towers on a sonic t-amp (5 watts). It's got plenty of umpf to fill up my small listening room.


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## ooheadsoo

30 tube watts is a LOT of power. You should be able to drive near anything with it. That the vandersteens can't sing with them is a testament to vandersteen's problematic xover design. That or luxman is lying about the ouput of your amp.


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## CRESCENDOPOWER

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Asterix* 
_I need really good, efficient speakers to pair with my Luxman 30 watt tube integrated amp. I am currently using Vandersteen 1C's, which produce excellent sound but I cannot turn them up loud enough (without clipping) to satisfy my ear. Any suggestions in the $1000-$1500 (or less) price range? Thanks._

 

If you want a large, or significant increase in sound pressure level changing your loudspeakers for more sensitive ones is probably your best bet. The Omega loudspeakers that tennisets recommends looks like something you should look into. If you buy a pair of bookshelf speakers now maybe you can pick up a subwoofer later.


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## Asterix

I brought my 1C's over to my friends house and he hooked it up to his old Denon reciever and wow! it's great to hear the 1C's properly driven. 

 I am interested in the Omegas... the Grande 8 looks nice.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *CRESCENDOPOWER* 
_If you want a large, or significant increase in sound pressure level changing your loudspeakers for more sensitive ones is probably your best bet. The Omega loudspeakers that tennisets recommends looks like something you should look into. If you buy a pair of bookshelf speakers now maybe you can pick up a subwoofer later._


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## Necros

I really think you should just add a poweramp...if the amp is struggling with the speakers which you like, it'll most likely not sound that great with other speakers as it's generally weak in output and the amount of current.

 You know it's the amp not being able to drive them...and higher efficiency/higher impedance speakers are not always the best sounding. For some reason high end speakers are usually 4Ohm and/or low sensitivity.


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## Asterix

I'm sure it would work... but I'm not interested in adding any solid state amplification to my setup if I can avoid it (a tube power amp would be significantly more expensive, right?) I would rather have the full tube sound than anything else... even if I can only use headphones or very efficient speakers. The nuances in the sound and musicality that tubes can provide is hard to beat.

 What about getting efficient speakers and adding a powered sub? That might work well.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Necros* 
_I really think you should just add a poweramp...if the amp is struggling with the speakers which you like, it'll most likely not sound that great with other speakers as it's generally weak in output and the amount of current.

 You know it's the amp not being able to drive them...and higher efficiency/higher impedance speakers are not always the best sounding. For some reason high end speakers are usually 4Ohm and/or low sensitivity. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_


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## Necros

Quite a few people have tube pre-amps, with SS poweramps.. it'll still keep the tube sound, but with the SS amps will be able to drive a wider choice of speakers, due to higher output amps out there. I reckon if you get a NAD C272 it should keep the soft synergy sound of the tubes, and provide plenty of power/current to the speakers.

 You could add a subwoofer, however you'll probably want to do some bass filtering at line level, ie with a bass management (av amp/processor) or crossover cards/box so low bass is directed from L/R to subwoofer. But of course using BM is not "pure 2ch"

 Adding a subwoofer to your amp will not help with redirecting bass from the L/R channels. Your amp will still be driving the L/R full-range audio signal.

 I can understand if your speakers are POS, haven't heard yours myself but others rate them that highly. I was in the similar situation as you- NHT HDP-2 dipole sides (very low sensitivity) and distortion did occur at higher levels with a 50W Arcam. So I replaced with a 100W Audiolab- much better.. instead of buying more efficient side speakers.


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## macdane

I think folks who are pointing you toward a 95dB+ horn design are nuts. They may also just be big horn fans or have simply never bothered to try anything else.

 I have a pair of 2A3-based SET amps boasting a whopping 3.5 watts per channel. I use 89dB Fried C/3L speakers and have really enjoyed the amps with Meadowlark Kestrels and Shearwaters (also 89dB, IIRC). One of the keys is that these speakers all represent an essentially resistive, benign load that doesn't fluctuate wildly across the spectrum.

 You can easily find Shearwaters and Kestrels on Audiogon, or you might want to check out the (relatively) new Swift. Nice stuff, easy to drive.

 FWIW, I listen primarily in a smallish room, but my time with the Shearwaters was spent in a large L-shaped room. The "business" leg of the L is at least 20x30 feet and this pairing never broke a sweat at anything resembling reasonable levels. I wouldn't call it the ideal setup for AC/DC or Funkmaster Diggity Dog-types of ...sounds. But for good music reproduction you ought to give something like this a shot.

 macdane


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## pigmode

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Asterix* 
_I talked to someone today who said I need 95db into 4 ohms sensitivity, preferably horns. Does this sound right for the Luxman LX-33 30 watt tube amp?_

 

I didn't see that you mentioned the size of your room, whether or not there are openings to that room, and the average dB at which you listen.

 In terms of speakers, sensitivity is just one side of the picture, and its impedance curve is the other. A peaky or smooth impedance curve can negate or reinforce the performance you are looking for. 

 If you can get by with an 89dB to 91dB sensitivity the choices available to you will increase considerably.

 What is the output impedance of the Luxman's 30w? Many tube amps allow a choice of 2 or 3 output impedance settings.


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## tennisets

You definitely don't need anything more than 88dB or so, as long as the speakers don't present a particularly difficult load. I'm driving 89dB Mission bookshelves with 20 watts/ch. I have heard the same speakers driven adequately by 3 watts/ch. What you need with tubes is a speaker whose impedance (hopefully) does not drop below 4 ohms and does not present any nasty combinations of impedance and phase angle. 

 There are any number of speakers that would work great with your amp, and the only way you're going to find the ones that work for YOU is if you audition as many different speakers as possible (and that doesn't mean 5 minutes, it means at LEAST a couple hours of listening to each speaker, preferably at home). 

 The reason I reccommended Omegas is not because of their sensitivity but because they are supposed to sound very good. A little higher sensitivity will also give you a more dynamic performance, IME. Besides, you said you live like 20 minutes from Omega. I still say you should give them a serious listen.


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## Asterix

I live close to the Vandersteen dealer, not the Omega dealer (thats in CT.)

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tennisets* 
_You definitely don't need anything more than 88dB or so, as long as the speakers don't present a particularly difficult load. I'm driving 89dB Mission bookshelves with 20 watts/ch. I have heard the same speakers driven adequately by 3 watts/ch. What you need with tubes is a speaker whose impedance (hopefully) does not drop below 4 ohms and does not present any nasty combinations of impedance and phase angle. 

 There are any number of speakers that would work great with your amp, and the only way you're going to find the ones that work for YOU is if you audition as many different speakers as possible (and that doesn't mean 5 minutes, it means at LEAST a couple hours of listening to each speaker, preferably at home). 

 The reason I reccommended Omegas is not because of their sensitivity but because they are supposed to sound very good. A little higher sensitivity will also give you a more dynamic performance, IME. Besides, you said you live like 20 minutes from Omega. I still say you should give them a serious listen._


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## Asterix

My guess the room is no bigger than 15x15. I don't know the output setting of the Luxman.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pigmode* 
_I didn't see that you mentioned the size of your room, whether or not there are openings to that room, and the average dB at which you listen.

 In terms of speakers, sensitivity is just one side of the picture, and its impedance curve is the other. A peaky or smooth impedance curve can negate or reinforce the performance you are looking for. 

 If you can get by with an 89dB to 91dB sensitivity the choices available to you will increase considerably.

 What is the output impedance of the Luxman's 30w? Many tube amps allow a choice of 2 or 3 output impedance settings._


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## tennisets

Oh, sorry. I didn't look at your location, I just misunderstood your earlier post I guess.

 The rest of my advice still stands though 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




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## Eric1285

I know a lot of people on here don't like horn speakers, but I love my Klipsch RB-35's. They're way below your league though, and I haven't listened to anything in your price range. But when I bought these, I was just in love with the horn sound. Dunno why.


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## bcbcbc

I would second macdane's recommendation on Meadowlark.

 I have been very happy with my Swifts, which are within your budget.

 I have mine positioned for nearfield listening to either side of my computer. They have a wonderful sound stage and luscious imaging. Not overly bright. It took at least 100 hours for the base to fill in when I first got them. But now they are fine.


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## J@ck

How about something different?
 Try to get a pair of Adam ANF-10 for home test-runs.


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## ooheadsoo

Pro Audio monitors are pretty easy to demo if you have a local guitar center or what not. Worth a shot.


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## Asterix

As it turns out the amp is what was causing the distortion and the Vandys are probably fine. However they are now sold and the Minuets are on their way but if I don't like them, I'll return them and get a new pair of Vandy 1c's.


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## peter braun

Well I cannot personally attest to their sound having not heard a pair, the Klipsch heritage series is supposed to sound great with tubes. Both the Hersey and Cornwall models have a very high sensitivity into 8 ohms, and can be purchased on Audiogon or ebay for less than $1000.


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