# Creative Sound Blaster new series Z, Zx & ZxR



## Migou67

There are three new Sound Blaster : the ZXR ($ 250), the ZX ($ 150) and Z ($ 100). 
  

  
 The ZXR is offering: digital-analog converters (DAC) with an SNR of 127 dB, OP-AMPS replaceable, headset amplifier with a 600 ohm impedance supported. A control module including an headphone output.
  

  
 They deliver 80 mW with a 600 ohms headphone.
  
 Product page:
http://www.soundblaster.com/gaming/soundcards.aspx
  
 Creative Labs SoundBlaster ZXR Review:
http://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/soundblaster_zxr_review.html


----------



## PurpleAngel

Wonder if these new Creative sound cards will make the Asus Phoebus drop in price?


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

Nice, good to see they are stepping up the game, 127dB SNR sounds promissing. Wonder how ZX will be like specs wise tho, $250 is expensive for these kind of soundcard, $150 I'm still hoping it would be at least matching Titanium HD.


----------



## stv014

Quote: 





rpgwizard said:


> Nice, good to see they are stepping up the game, 127dB SNR sounds promissing.


 
   
  The 127 dB SNR most likely refers to the DAC chip only, not the entire card.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Well that would probably be the specification for the DAC chip.  Which is an ideal, perfect situation where it would possibly hit that mark.  The real world performance is usually a few dB difference and the Decibel scale is logarithmic so a difference of a few dB is quite a bit.
   
  My experience would suggest that in the real world, it would probably hit about 124dB, if the circuit used quality opamps and caps.  Which is similar to their TitanHD or the higher end Xonars.


----------



## Migou67

For a consumer audio card is nice to see a headphone amp delivering 80 mW under 600 ohms and a dedicated DAC. For me this card is a trade-off between the multimedia and the audio world.


----------



## PurpleAngel

Any new info on these sound cards?


----------



## Migou67

No, there are not available for the moment.


----------



## insound

The first pictures from inside the cards Z and ZxR
 http://personalaudio.ru/review/sound-cards/foto_kart_sound_blaster_z_i_zxr_iznutri/


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

Quote: 





insound said:


> The first pictures from inside the cards Z and ZxR
> http://personalaudio.ru/review/sound-cards/foto_kart_sound_blaster_z_i_zxr_iznutri/


 
   
  Interesting new site despite being in russian though, they posted the first review also on Sony 1R and Sony XB600 & XB800 headphones.


----------



## NamelessPFG

These cards could be quite promising in terms of analog audio quality...
   
  ...but if they rely on a software OpenAL device like the Recon3D USB does, then they will NEVER surpass the X-Fi line for gaming, not until Creative fixes the bugs in their software OpenAL implementation.


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> These cards could be quite promising in terms of analog audio quality...
> 
> ...but if they rely on a software OpenAL device like the Recon3D USB does, then they will NEVER surpass the X-Fi line for gaming, not until Creative fixes the bugs in their software OpenAL implementation.


 
   
   
  From what I've seen so far, it seems most hardware features have been stripped, with the core chip being a simple pre-programmed DSP, without a hardware MIDI synthesizer, no hardware accelerated gaming audio features whatsoever, but I still haven't checked out for ASIO support.
   
  The last true high quality Creative card is the X-Fi Titanium HD and the almost as good Auzentech variants.


----------



## insound

ASIO will be with update driver, they said in an interview (Russian)
 http://personalaudio.ru/review/sound-cards/intervyu_s_tekhnicheskim_spetsialistom_creative_na_prezentatsii_novykh_produktov_sound_blaster_z_zx_/


----------



## NamelessPFG

*puts the site through Google Translate*
   
  And they blatantly admitted that they're giving up on hardware sound acceleration in that interview...which wouldn't be so bad if Creative's software OpenAL renderer wasn't flawed compared to the hardware renderer used with their older cards.
   
  Something tells me they're not bringing back the MIDI synthesizer with customizable SoundFonts, either. That little feature can make 1990s games with MIDI music sound really nice, much more than the usual software Microsoft synth can do.
   
  *sighs* Someone needs to buy all of Creative's PC gaming audio tech from them, both their in-house EAX and everything they took from Aureal and Sensaura. They sure aren't doing much with it all.


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> *puts the site through Google Translate*
> 
> And they blatantly admitted that they're giving up on hardware sound acceleration in that interview...which wouldn't be so bad if Creative's software OpenAL renderer wasn't flawed compared to the hardware renderer used with their older cards.
> 
> ...


 
   
   
  What's more troubling is that they have no need to avoid providing hardware sound acceleration, they hold all the cards and it would always be an ace up their sleeve. Software OpenAL isn't that great, Creative's software OpenAL is a bit better, but hardware OpenAL is indeed the best route.
   
  Considering the way they were advertising the new cards, it would make sense to have a proper MIDI synthesizer.
   
  I wholeheartedly agree with that, but who could be someone that could be trusted with all of Creative's proprietary features?


----------



## ozz007

So with the information we have now, do you guys think this will be a better buy, comparing it against the Titanium HD card? 
   
  Thanks
   
  Ozz


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





ozz007 said:


> So with the information we have now, do you guys think this will be a better buy, comparing it against the Titanium HD card?


 
   
  If they're anything like the Recon3D products (which, being Sound Core3D based, they most likely are), absolutely *not.*
   
  No hardware OpenAL acceleration is the big issue, along with THX TruStudio Surround-er, SBX Pro Surround (probably the same thing, just rebranded) sounding worse than CMSS-3D Headphone, no ASIO support (though I've heard they're working on that), no hardware MIDI synthesizer with SoundFont support (hey, I like my 1990s DOS games with MIDI music!)...there's just too much that's missing.
   
  At this rate, the X-Fi Titanium HD could be Creative's last _good_ sound card for gaming. Those who need extra analog channels can go for an Auzentech X-Fi Prelude, Forte, or HomeTheater HD instead. (Maybe the Onkyo SE-300PCIE too, if it comes with the analog surround output header, but I'm not willing to pay the exorbitant price just to find out.)


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> If they're anything like the Recon3D products (which, being Sound Core3D based, they most likely are), absolutely *not.*
> 
> No hardware OpenAL acceleration is the big issue, along with THX TruStudio Surround-er, SBX Pro Surround (probably the same thing, just rebranded) sounding worse than CMSS-3D Headphone, no ASIO support (though I've heard they're working on that), no hardware MIDI synthesizer with SoundFont support (hey, I like my 1990s DOS games with MIDI music!)...there's just too much that's missing.
> 
> At this rate, the X-Fi Titanium HD could be Creative's last _good_ sound card for gaming. Those who need extra analog channels can go for an Auzentech X-Fi Prelude, Forte, or HomeTheater HD instead. (Maybe the Onkyo SE-300PCIE too, if it comes with the analog surround output header, but I'm not willing to pay the exorbitant price just to find out.)


 
   
  Keep in mind lack of hardware MIDI synthesizer also means audio production is impaired, but I sure do miss full DOS MIDI support too.
   
  I agree that from the looks of things, the X-Fi Titanium HD (and the souped up Onkyo SE-300PCIE) is the best Creative soundcard available. The X-Fi powered Auzentech cards are good too, and above regular X-Fi cards, excluding the Titanium HD and Elite Pro.


----------



## ozz007

I just purchase the Titanium HD, I was hoping that the zxr will be better since it comes with replaceable opamps and maybe will have the same support as the Titanium HD but It looks like it won't have the same hardware support as the HD.


----------



## genclaymore

The Titanium HD also has replaceable op-amps, you just have to remove the EMI shield to get to them.  The I/Vs take Two Dual channel op-amps and the  Two buffers  sockets take Two single channel op-amps. Don't place Two Dual channel op-amps into the X-FI Titanium HD buffers. YOu can use the default LME49710NA's thats in the buffer op-amp socket now and just change the JRcs out the I/V's socket.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Word of warning on opamp rolling with the Titanium HD: replacing the JRCs with LME49860NAs while leaving the LME49710NAs installed results in a horribly V-shaped frequency response. Really spiked bass and treble with recessed mids. I hated it.
   
  Other opamps may fare better, but I haven't bothered to experiment since it already sounds fine in stock configuration to me.


----------



## genclaymore

Yea when I had a Titanium HD I did try that combo, I wish I didn't and i removed it quickly too. I don't fully recall what i normally used in the TI-HD PCi-e I/V socket.


----------



## ozz007

quick question on the Titanium HD, if i use the optical out of the sound card to my external dac audio-gd NFB-12 does it still uses the card dac to process the sound? or do I have to connect to the RCA outs in order to use the sound cards DAC? 
   
  either way what will be the best way to get the best possible sound, 
   
   
  1. set  PC to Titanium to NFB-12 dac by Optical out from card.
   
  2.set PC-Titanium HD to NFB-12 dac by Optical out, then RCA out to Schiit Asgard amp and plugging the headphones to the asgard? 
   
  2. set PC-Titanium HD to Schiit Asgard amp by RCA out of SoundCard, Never use the NFB-12 at all. 
   
  Thanks for you guys input.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





ozz007 said:


> quick question on the Titanium HD, if i use the optical out of the sound card to my external dac audio-gd NFB-12 does it still uses the card dac to process the sound? or do I have to connect to the RCA outs in order to use the sound cards DAC?
> 
> either way what will be the best way to get the best possible sound,
> 
> ...


 
   
  The whole point of digital audio interfaces like S/PDIF is to transmit the audio signal to an outboard DAC.
   
  If you want to use the NFB-12 DAC, you can save yourself quite a bit of money by going with a refurb X-Fi Titanium for $40-45 on Newegg. Still has just about all of the gaming audio features, and the lesser analog output quality isn't an issue when you're using S/PDIF anyway.
   
  On the other hand, if you think you might sell the NFB-12 down the road, then the Titanium HD will be more than competent as a DAC.


----------



## genclaymore

I would say if you already have a NFB-12, and thinking about getting a titanium HD dont get it. Just use your motherboard optical out into the NFB-12. Now if you want the gaming features just get a cheap Xtreme gamer and use the optical from that. That way you have both worlds.  I know the Titanium HD is a great card I had one my self.  But in this case I would personally keep the NFB-12 if I was you, then do what I mention with a cheap X-FI Xtreme gamer.  Because CMSS3D headphone does work thru Digital as I tried it with the Xtreme Gamer optical out. Before some one ask why I have a DG into my NFB-12 and not my onboard. The VIA audio drivers has a glitch where Digital out outputs at 50% volume. Other wise I would be using onboard spdif out into it.
   
  But if you already have a Titanium HD i would suggest selling that instead, because it be a waste to use it thru optical with how much that card cost. Since it will be used  as a digital transport into the NFB-12.


----------



## ozz007

so is fared to say, use it with per say schiit Asgard, by using the RCA out of the card directly plug it to the asgard. will sound  better?


----------



## NamelessPFG

If you're using the Titanium HD as the DAC, then yes, you want to use the RCA-outs into a headphone amp. That's what I do with my Stax setup.


----------



## ozz007

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> If you're using the Titanium HD as the DAC, then yes, you want to use the RCA-outs into a headphone amp. That's what I do with my Stax setup.


 
  Ok that sounds like a plan, Unfortunately I bought the card, schiit asgard, the NFB-12 came in bundle with my HD800, I was looking for a good setup for my headset, I think you are right I will sell the NFB-12 and use the Titanium HD + Asgard amp as my setup, I do a lot of CPU gaming, Wolf of warcraft, Crysis, WarHammer 40K etc, so i do need the sound card.
   
  Since using the titanium by the optical makes the gaming part useless then I will use it with the RCA out to my Asgard when it gets here. It should sound good with my HD 800
   
  Thanks.


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





ozz007 said:


> Ok that sounds like a plan, Unfortunately I bought the card, Schiit Asgard, the NFB-12 came in bundle with my HD800, I was looking for a good setup for my headset, I think you are right I will sell the NFB-12 and use the Titanium HD + Asgard amp as my setup, I do a lot of CPU gaming, Wolf of warcraft, Crysis, WarHammer 40K etc, so i do need the sound card.
> 
> Since using the Titanium HD by the optical makes the gaming part useless then I will use it with the RCA out to my Asgard when it gets here. It should sound good with my HD 800


 
  You can plug the NFB-12 into the Titanium's S/PDIF optical port and try the NFB-12, as the Titanium HD supports gaming features (like headphone surround sound) thru S/PDIF output.
  You can then sell off the NFB-12 at anytime in the future.


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





ozz007 said:


> Ok that sounds like a plan, Unfortunately I bought the card, schiit asgard, the NFB-12 came in bundle with my HD800, I was looking for a good setup for my headset, I think you are right I will sell the NFB-12 and use the Titanium HD + Asgard amp as my setup, I do a lot of CPU gaming, Wolf of warcraft, Crysis, WarHammer 40K etc, so i do need the sound card.
> 
> Since using the titanium by the optical makes the gaming part useless then I will use it with the RCA out to my Asgard when it gets here. It should sound good with my HD 800
> 
> Thanks.


 
   
  The Titanium HD has a solid DAC, and you will enjoy its analog output through the RCAs to the Asgard.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





purpleangel said:


> You can plug the NFB-12 into the Titanium's S/PDIF optical port and try the NFB-12, as the Titanium HD supports gaming features (like headphone surround sound) thru S/PDIF output.
> You can then sell off the NFB-12 at anytime in the future.


 
   
  I was gonna say...all it takes is to check "Play Stereo Mix using Digital Output" in the Titanium HD's control panel. (The location varies depending on whether you use the Audio Control Panel or the Console Launcher.)


----------



## ozz007

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> I was gonna say...all it takes is to check "Play Stereo Mix using Digital Output" in the Titanium HD's control panel. (The location varies depending on whether you use the Audio Control Panel or the Console Launcher.)


 
  I'm happy to report, that after trying several configurations, the one that worked the best for me was.
   
  PC to TiHD spdif to NFB-12 then RCA out to Asgard, Headphones connected to asgard. it just sounds the awesome, also when i change mode to Game all games sounds sound amazing. 
   
  Happy with the setup. asgard gets pretty hot, compared to the NFB-12 which it gets warm. for what i heard the Dac on this NFB-12 is pretty decent. 
   
  thanks for the help guys.


----------



## genclaymore

I hope You do realize that the NFB-12 is also a Amp beside being a Dac. The Asgard isn't needed in the chain. Since the Amp inside the NFB-12 does a good job with powering headphones that need the power. Unless you just don't like the amp thats inside of the NFB-12 and rather just use it as a Dac. To me that just seem like a waste. Since the NFB-12 is both a dac and a hp amp.


----------



## ozz007

Quote: 





genclaymore said:


> I hope You do realize that the NFB-12 is also a Amp beside being a Dac. The Asgard isn't needed in the chain. Since the Amp inside the NFB-12 does a good job with powering headphones that need the power. Unless you just don't like the amp thats inside of the NFB-12 and rather just use it as a Dac. To me that just seem like a waste. Since the NFB-12 is both a dac and a hp amp.


 
  Yes i Know im testing both at this moment and see the difference between both, i think the asgard sounds a bit more warmer. Once i make my mind on what i would like to keep i will get rid of the rest.


----------



## Nielo TM

You guys do realize MS killed hardware audio acceleration back in 2006. There's no way to accelerate the audio without OpenAL and most of today's gamers are software driven. So there's no reason to use X-Fi or any hardware acceleration LSI.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





nielo tm said:


> You guys do realize MS killed hardware audio acceleration back in 2006. There's no way to accelerate the audio without OpenAL and most of today's gamers are software driven. So there's no reason to use X-Fi or any hardware acceleration LSI.


 
   
  I don't know about you, but I still play a lot of DirectSound3D-and-OpenAL-based games from years past, and ALchemy works pretty well for the former. I'm not giving up the best sound possible for those titles at any cost, especially when a lot of them play much better than most newer games anyway along with sounding much better.
   
  For that matter, I built a retrogaming PC not too long ago. It has THREE sound cards: a Creative Sound Blaster AWE64 Gold (to be replaced with an AWE32 when I have a case that can take its massive 14-inch length on the bottom-most slot, so I can have real OPL3 synth and QSound support) for DOS games, a Turtle Beach Montego II for Aureal A3D-based games, and an Auzentech X-Fi Prelude for everything DirectSound3D and OpenAL. I boot it into Win98SE for the first two cards (Aureal Vortex support is dreadful on NT-based Windows, and I need real DOS mode for the AWE cards), and anything that runs on WinXP uses the X-Fi.
   
  All I really need to add is a Roland LA synth like the MT-32 or CM-32L, and I'll have near-maximum PC game audio compatibility on that system, save for anything that sounds best on a Gravis Ultrasound or anything else really exotic that requires an extra ISA slot not present on that system's motherboard.
   
  Yes, that's just how seriously I take my gaming audio.


----------



## Nielo TM

I do occasionally play old titles providing my current hardware still support it (the old OpenGL libraries are no longer included with the latest driver so thats a bit of an issue). The fact of the matter is hardware audio acceleration has been dead for 6 years. It's now a novelty item for retro gamers but even that's on the verge of collapse since new motherboards only support XP partially. I certainly don't blame creative for ditching X-Fi in favor of DSPs. 

Anyway things have gotten much better since the elimination of hardware audio. No more audio driver related BSODs.


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





nielo tm said:


> I do occasionally play old titles providing my current hardware still support it (the old OpenGL libraries are no longer included with the latest driver so thats a bit of an issue). The fact of the matter is hardware audio acceleration has been dead for 6 years. It's now a novelty item for retro gamers but even that's on the verge of collapse since new motherboards only support XP partially. I certainly don't blame creative for ditching X-Fi in favor of DSPs.
> Anyway things have gotten much better since the elimination of hardware audio. No more audio driver related BSODs.


 
   
  Windows XP lack of support is of little consequence since hardware accelerated audio can be fully used on Windows Vista/7/8, and it's still quite superior to any of the non-accelerated software audio.
   
  The single point that can improve marginally is stability, as sonic performance is significantly inferior.


----------



## Nielo TM

Not via DirectSound (except in Win8 from what I gather) and you have to use OpenAL, which isn't exactly flawless. Anyway, PC gaming is dead or at least it's not what it used to be. The majority of releases are console ports based around ancient  console audio architecture.


----------



## Roller

Again, hardware accelerate audio is fully used, with OpenAL being an excellent audio renderer, even for hardware that only supports it through software.
   
  PC gaming audio certainly isn't what it used to be, being now limited to flat 2D sound maps with poor positional cue accuracy.
   
  I'm afraid it's not just audio that's being held back by console gaming.


----------



## Nielo TM

Tell me about it. These days it's not possible to scale any engine that can function on mobile spec consoles and desktop PC. It's one or the other and most (if not all) have opted for console.


----------



## Roller

What really bothers me about the whole console gaming having most of the development focus is that the piracy excuse is thrown around, trying to make the idea of PC piracy being rampant when compared to console piracy. The fact is that there is basically as much console piracy as PC piracy, but due to masses not being informed on that, such idea was been somewhat accepted.
   
  Now, I'm all up for cross platform development, as long as it doesn't limit the quality of the content that reaches the PC. From a technical standpoint, the PC is inevitably superior to consoles due to its dynamic hardware nature and precisely because of that, games should be developed first and foremost for that platform, being then cut down for consoles (stationary or handheld), according to each device's specs.


----------



## chewy4

Quote: 





roller said:


> What really bothers me about the whole console gaming having most of the development focus is that the piracy excuse is thrown around, trying to make the idea of PC piracy being rampant when compared to console piracy. The fact is that there is basically as much console piracy as PC piracy, but due to masses not being informed on that, such idea was been somewhat accepted.
> 
> Now, I'm all up for cross platform development, as long as it doesn't limit the quality of the content that reaches the PC. From a technical standpoint, the PC is inevitably superior to consoles due to its dynamic hardware nature and precisely because of that, games should be developed first and foremost for that platform, being then cut down for consoles (stationary or handheld), according to each device's specs.


 
  Yeah that's pretty annoying for PC games.
   
  Not to mention certain producers like Ubisoft and EA make you jump through so much hoops and DRM layers to play the legitimate copies that it makes the pirated versions the easier version to play.


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





chewy4 said:


> Yeah that's pretty annoying for PC games.
> 
> Not to mention certain producers like Ubisoft and EA make you jump through so much hoops and DRM layers to play the legitimate copies that it makes the pirated versions the easier version to play.


 
   
  True. Most DRM implementations go from annoying to intrusive, such as increasing medium wear and requiring a constant internet connection while running games. Even worse, some DRM actually breaks games, which was very controversial when that was discovered, as well as pirated versions being less buggy.
   
  Still, as consoles evolve from single purpose devices to multimedia machines, they are getting increasingly filled with bugs, and that poses quite some problems so users of such hardware since there is no community support whatsoever.


----------



## Nielo TM

Quote: 





roller said:


> Now, I'm all up for cross platform development, as long as it doesn't limit the quality of the content that reaches the PC. From a technical standpoint, the PC is inevitably superior to consoles due to its dynamic hardware nature and precisely because of that, games should be developed first and foremost for that platform, being then cut down for consoles (stationary or handheld), according to each device's specs.


 
  That is not easy and it can't be done if the gap is too wide, which is what we are facing atm. Since 2005, both GPUs and CPUs have undergone tremendous change. We can now run AI, physics, dynamic lighting etc on the GPU or on the GPU side of an APU via DirectCompute or OpenCL. Raw processing power has also vastly increased during the 7 year period. So it's not possible to develop games that take advantage of modern PC hardware and then trim down to fit the consoles (especially when PS3's architecture is so different to PC and 360). That's like developing a game for the HD7870 then trimming it down so it can run on the PowerVR SGX543MP4 found on the iPad 3 hence why developers have chosen a middle-ground but this means high-end PC hardware aren't being utilized or too busy running dirty code.


----------



## Nielo TM

I am actually very concerned about the next gen system. They may already be less powerful than current hardware and if that's the case, the gap will widen much faster and the cycle will repeat itself.


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





nielo tm said:


> That is not easy and it can't be done if the gap is too wide, which is what we are facing atm. Since 2005, both GPUs and CPUs have undergone tremendous change. We can now run AI, physics, dynamic lighting etc on the GPU or on the GPU side of an APU via DirectCompute or OpenCL. Raw processing power has also vastly increased during the 7 year period. So it's not possible to develop games that take advantage of modern PC hardware and then trim down to fit the consoles (especially when PS3's architecture is so different to PC and 360). That's like developing a game for the HD7870 then trimming it down so it can run on the PowerVR SGX543MP4 found on the iPad 3 hence why developers have chosen a middle-ground but this means high-end PC hardware aren't being utilized or too busy running dirty code.


 
   
  Modern engines are quite scalable, and their mid to low settings can run even on hardware as old as current gen (2006) console hardware.
   
  Hopefully, the rumors about APUs being used aren't true, as that kind of hardware is mainly suitable for HTPC usage, or non-interactive content. In any case, most developers agree that the main purpose of the next gen consoles is to bring 1080p running at 60fps, but it's all but certain that photorealistic textures and gobs of shaders are going to be used, saturate bandwidth and get back to struggling to even reach 30fps, just like the current gen does.


----------



## chewy4

Quote: 





nielo tm said:


> I am actually very concerned about the next gen system. They may already be less powerful than current hardware and if that's the case, the gap will widen much faster and the cycle will repeat itself.


 
   
  Hardware isn't getting better at as nearly as fast of a rate than it used to though.
  Quote: 





roller said:


> Modern engines are quite scalable, and their mid to low settings can run even on hardware as old as current gen (2006) console hardware.
> 
> Hopefully, the rumors about APUs being used aren't true, as that kind of hardware is mainly suitable for HTPC usage, or non-interactive content. In any case, most developers agree that the main purpose of the next gen consoles is to bring 1080p running at 60fps, but it's all but certain that photorealistic textures and gobs of shaders are going to be used, saturate bandwidth and get back to struggling to even reach 30fps, just like the current gen does.


 
  Yeah I don't see why they would use APUs... an APU seems like it's more optimized for non-gaming stuff.


----------



## Nielo TM

Quote: 





roller said:


> Modern engines are quite scalable, and their mid to low settings can run even on hardware as old as current gen (2006) console hardware.
> 
> Hopefully, the rumors about APUs being used aren't true, as that kind of hardware is mainly suitable for HTPC usage, or non-interactive content. In any case, most developers agree that the main purpose of the next gen consoles is to bring 1080p running at 60fps, but it's all but certain that photorealistic textures and gobs of shaders are going to be used, saturate bandwidth and get back to struggling to even reach 30fps, just like the current gen does.


 
  As I've said previously, games are developed with console in mind as a compromise, which means it can be scaled down but not scaled up to take advantage of modern hardware such as the HD7890.  Since Crysis, there hasn't been a single game that fully utilized the PC hardware. Metro 2033 uses a lot of DirectCompute for post-processing effects but it was poorly implemented.
   
  Current gen console have no problems rendering @ 1080p60. But say goodbye to rich visuals. Most likely next gen games will remain 720p30 or 720p60. Personally I prefer for the to put a very powerful GPU that can at least last for 5 years.


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





nielo tm said:


> As I've said previously, games are developed with console in mind as a compromise, which means it can be scaled down but not scaled up to take advantage of modern hardware such as the HD7890.  Since Crysis, there hasn't been a single game that fully utilized the PC hardware. Metro 2033 uses a lot of DirectCompute for post-processing effects but it was poorly implemented.
> 
> Current gen console have no problems rendering @ 1080p60. But say goodbye to rich visuals. Most likely next gen games will remain 720p30 or 720p60. Personally I prefer for the to put a very powerful GPU that can at least last for 5 years.


 
   
  Actually, Metro series is very similar to the first Crysis games, both are a code mess that required insane specs.
   
  Next gen consoles will be able to have the base of current gen's maxed out graphics running at 60fps, and that's the main point here. There is potential for some rather smart AA implementations, but that has seldom worked on current gen.
   
  In any case, some hardware might be weaker, but not the system as a whole, and having loadings taking up to and more than one minute is simply unacceptable by any conceivable measure.


----------



## Nielo TM

Quote: 





chewy4 said:


> Hardware isn't getting better at as nearly as fast of a rate than it used to though.
> Yeah I don't see why they would use APUs... an APU seems like it's more optimized for non-gaming stuff.


 

 Yes they are especially GP-GPUs (aka parallel computing). CPUs haven't broken moors law and GPUs are advancing faster CPUs due to high demand in the server/super computer sector.
   
  Don't forget, PS3's Cell is an APU and they pretty awesome. It's basically serial and parallel processing cores in one, which drastically speeds up over all processing. For an example, you can run decompression, AI, physics etc on the parallel side (GP-GPU side), and run serial tasks such as the OS and the engine on the serial core. The parallel processing core can also be used to aid vector rendering in order to boost visuals or number of frames.


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





nielo tm said:


> Yes they are especially GP-GPUs (aka parallel computing). CPUs haven't broken moors law and GPUs are advancing faster CPUs due to high demand in the server/super computer sector.
> 
> Don't forget, PS3's Cell is an APU and they pretty awesome. It's basically serial and parallel processing cores in one, which drastically speeds up over all processing. For an example, you can run decompression, AI, physics etc on the parallel side (GP-GPU side), and run serial tasks such as the OS and the engine on the serial core. The parallel processing core can also be used to aid vector rendering in order to boost visuals or number of frames.


 
   
  Not quite. PS3's Cell (not PC versions of it) is above all a custom CPU that ties itself to a custom Nvidia Geforce 7800GT that offloads specific tasks to Cell. I assembled a render horse at work with an expansion card packing a 3/4 sized Cell processor, and it performs quite nicely. If only it could be used to aid 3D gaming...
   
  On the subject of GPGPUs, I'm quite dismayed at how consumer GPUs and workstation GPUs keep having an increasing gap in terms of GPGPU performance, this having begun a couple hardware generations ago, and all for the sake of selling the more expensive, ECC supported, workstation GPUs.
   
  About consoles, I sincerely hope the next gen hardware won't go down the same path of newer hardware revisions being cut down in features, beside the obviously beneficial smaller manufacturing processes.


----------



## Nielo TM

Technically it is a an APU. One serial core surrounded by 7 (1 inactive) SPE (when combined forms a parallel core). But its vastly different to AMD's Fusion APU.


----------



## Nielo TM

Quote: 





roller said:


> On the subject of GPGPUs, I'm quite dismayed at how consumer GPUs and workstation GPUs keep having an increasing gap in terms of GPGPU performance, this having begun a couple hardware generations ago, and all for the sake of selling the more expensive, ECC supported, workstation GPUs.
> 
> About consoles, I sincerely hope the next gen hardware won't go down the same path of newer hardware revisions being cut down in features, beside the obviously beneficial smaller manufacturing processes.


 
  I don't follow
   
  Yes but we'll know for sure in few months


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





nielo tm said:


> Technically it is a an APU. One serial core surrounded by 7 (1 inactive) SPE (when combined forms a parallel core). But its vastly different to AMD's Fusion APU.


 
   
  Indeed.
   
  Quote: 





nielo tm said:


> I don't follow
> 
> Yes but we'll know for sure in few months


 
   
  I was talking about how each new PS3 form factor reduced features, from PS2 game compatibility, to the possibility of installing Linux distros, and I/O connectivity. However, Sony did a great job at actually reducing memory usage, which is exactly the opposite of what happened with the Xbox 360.
   
  Well, Sony did have a 5 year cycle between hardware generations, so it's already due, but I'm definitely curious to see what it will bring to the table.
   
  In any case, I'm still waiting for widespread cross platform multiplayer gaming.


----------



## Nielo TM

and the new form fact is the worst yet.
   
  I meant the following
   
  "On the subject of GPGPUs, I'm quite dismayed at how consumer GPUs and workstation GPUs keep having an increasing gap in terms of GPGPU performance, this having begun a couple hardware generations ago, and all for the sake of selling the more expensive, ECC supported, workstation GPUs."
   
  I don't understand what you mean.


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





nielo tm said:


> and the new form fact is the worst yet.
> 
> I meant the following
> 
> ...


 
   
  Seriously, what's the point of a 12GB console, when such drive can't hold more than 2 games? Sometimes even 2 games are too large.

 I was saying that GPGPU performance has had a troubled road on the last two generations of consumer GPUs, which is a clear separation for selling workstation GPUs.


----------



## Nielo TM

What kind of trouble?


PS: Sony made a right mess of things in terms of licensing. They sold the cell to Toshiba effectively killing any prospects of integrating it with the RSX, which means the PS3 can never be as slim as the PS2 and cant compete with the 360 (price wise) hence why MS haven't dropped the price (remember you need to two to tango). ideally both console should be retaling for £100 or less (less than 150 USD)


----------



## Roller

Single and double precision performance has been deliberately crippled on consumer GPUs, while workstation GPUs have full performance according to each architecture. When I say crippled performance, I'm talking about consumer GPUs having 1/4 of the performance workstation GPUs have, something that didn't happen on first generation GPGPU-capable hardware.
   
  Indeed. I got a new PS2 a couple years ago for less than 100€, which was a good price, but unfortunately it wasn't the model with the HDD bay.
   
  Overall, current gen consoles should've never put backwards compatibility aside, that would've been a major selling point.


----------



## Nielo TM

Was that confined to nVIDIA or did it spill over to AMD as well?
   
  PS4 won't be backwards compatible with PS3, but the next 360 will support all 360 games and DLCs. The Wii U is also backwards compatible with previous consoles.


----------



## Roller

Mainly Nvidia but also affected AMD.
   
  Xbox 360 and Xbox compatibility is terrible, only original PS3 versions supported PS2 games due to actually having the Emotion Engine hardware, although that's not much of an excuse since they have perfect software emulation that was never released to public.


----------



## Nielo TM

The first Xbox was a mass experiment and they also allowed certain developers full access to the hardware, hence why some games aren't BC and other have problems (e.g. HALO 1 and 2). This time around, all GPU communications have to be routed via DirectX API (no custom APIs allowed), which means they'll be able to run all 360 games and DLCs on future platforms either natively or via emulation.
   
  Sony on the other hand  gave developers full access to the hardware since day 1 so they could write directly to the metal with little overhead (which means better visuals and performance), but that kills any possibility of cost effective emulation.


----------



## Roller

While I have no love for Xbox hardware and software ecossystem, I have always found their CPU implementations interesting. But then again, so was PS3's implementation.
   
  The bouncing between radically different architectures sure makes for a nigh impossible accurate emulation process, that's a given.
   
  I still think consoles should have a hardware upgrade system, with the base console running most games at 30fps (excluding flagship games that run at 60fps), and an upgraded GPU pushing games to 60fps.


----------



## Heretic817

I am confused by this though. Why a 600 ohm output? Don't you want the smallest impedance output possible?


----------



## Roller

It's not output impedance, it's support for headphones up to 600 Ohm.


----------



## Heretic817

Quote: 





roller said:


> It's not output impedance, it's support for headphones up to 600 Ohm.


 
  That makes more sense. I read a thing about it twice that said 600 ohm output. I was like ??????


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





heretic817 said:


> That makes more sense. I read a thing about it twice that said 600 ohm output. I was like ??????


 
   
  Yeah, I can imagine  Headphones certainly wouldn't sound good with that high output impedance.


----------



## Migou67

Quote: 





heretic817 said:


> I am confused by this though. Why a 600 ohm output? Don't you want the smallest impedance output possible?


 
   
  I corrected the post. they deliver 80 mW with a 600 ohms headphone ! Sorry for the confusion.


----------



## Kel Ghu

No opamp experts opinion on the pictures we've seen?

----------------------------

OK, I spent some searching a bit. Comparing the pictures with information I gathered, the ZxR card has the exact same hardware as the Titanium HD for the most part it seems:
- Same Opamp (JRC2114D, LME49710NA: http://www.head-fi.org/t/634548/x-fi-titanium-hd-opamp-rolling)
- Same DAC ( Burr-Brown PCM1794: http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/pcm1794.pdf). Though they now claim 124dB vs 122dB for the Titanium HD.

Difference is the TPA6120A2 amp which is really specified at 80mW into 600 Ohm and SNR at 120dB (http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/tpa6120a2.pdf).

I'm not a techie, but it sounds like an update of the Recon3D with the "audiophile" hardware of the Titanium HD + a new powerful headphone amp. Is this going to be better than a STX?

Roller, I think you said the Z-serie only has partial gaming support. Why?


----------



## Armaegis

from the website: Holiday Sale - Dec 11-15 ONLY! Save 33% when you use coupon code 30GIFT4U at checkout. Enter code 30GIFT4U at checkout.  Here's how (restrictions apply)


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





kel ghu said:


> No opamp experts opinion on the pictures we've seen?  OK, I spent some searching a bit. Comparing the pictures with information I gathered, the ZxR card has the exact same hardware as the Titanium HD for the most part it seems:
> - Same Opamp (JRC2114D, LME49710NA: http://www.head-fi.org/t/634548/x-fi-titanium-hd-opamp-rolling)
> - Same DAC ( Burr-Brown PCM1794: http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/pcm1794.pdf). Though they now claim 124dB vs 122dB for the Titanium HD.
> Difference is the TPA6120A2 amp which is really specified at 80mW into 600 Ohm and SNR at 120dB (http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/tpa6120a2.pdf).
> ...


 
  I believe the situation is the ZxR uses the Sound Core 3D audio processor, which I guess one could say is a stripped down version of the audio processor that is in the Titanium HD.


----------



## Kel Ghu

Stripped down? I think it's a totally different processor. Titanium used to process everything on its audio processor, EAX, Crystalizer, CMS3D, etc etc... But now, everything has been moved to the CPU, only remains 4 specialized DSPs (CrystalVoice, THX TruStudio Pro, Smart Volume and Pro Bass).
But apparently, the version of the SoundCore 3D on ZxR doesn't make use of the embedded DAC. That task has been off-loaded to a real DAC, the PCM1794 which is amongst the best DAC according to Guru3D. That's why people say Titanium's DAC is better than STX's. So ZxR's SoundCore 3D is actually a stripped down version on Recon 3D's.
I don't mind that. It's doesn't make the sound worse as CPUs have more than enough power to process all that so one won't see any impact on speed. And the design actually makes the sound better as the DAC is way better than what we had on Recon3D's and Titanium HD's analog hardware is back.

It took them this long to take a Titanium HD, replace the audio processor with SoundCore3D and update the headphone amp... Anyway, it does really look to me that we have a winner here with the ZxR. My time waiting is soon arriving to an end... I really needed a audiophile gaming card.


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





kel ghu said:


> No opamp experts opinion on the pictures we've seen?  OK, I spent some searching a bit. Comparing the pictures with information I gathered, the ZxR card has the exact same hardware as the Titanium HD for the most part it seems:
> - Same Opamp (JRC2114D, LME49710NA: http://www.head-fi.org/t/634548/x-fi-titanium-hd-opamp-rolling)
> - Same DAC ( Burr-Brown PCM1794: http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/pcm1794.pdf). Though they now claim 124dB vs 122dB for the Titanium HD.
> Difference is the TPA6120A2 amp which is really specified at 80mW into 600 Ohm and SNR at 120dB (http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/tpa6120a2.pdf).
> ...


 
   
  You're right, a PCM1794 is used for the main channels, just like the Titanium HD, but curiously it seems that a second chip is used, the PCM1798 for the remaining channels, and that takes over when multichannel output is configured as the main output.
   
  A quick look indicates that the Titanium HD, the ZxR and the Essence STX all stand at the top of the consumer internal soundcard market, in terms of sound quality.
   
  The Z series have partial gaming audio support because they no longer have a dedicated processor for handling audio tasks, which by itself isn't a problem from a performance perspective, but that means no hardware accelerated audio is available, and games that do support hardware audio will either limit or disable advanced audio features altogether. Also, it doesn't have positional cue improvement algorithms that are found on the X-Fi chip (those algorithms aren't found on software based X-Fi cards like the XtremeAudio), and along with the lack of hardware OpenAL, makes for partial gaming audio support, that's still above Asus cards' gaming audio support, but clearly below X-Fi cards, notably the Titanium HD.
   
  Quote: 





kel ghu said:


> Stripped down? I think it's a totally different processor. Titanium used to process everything on its audio processor, EAX, Crystalizer, CMS3D, etc etc... But now, everything has been moved to the CPU, only remains 4 specialized DSPs (CrystalVoice, THX TruStudio Pro, Smart Volume and Pro Bass).
> But apparently, the version of the SoundCore 3D on ZxR doesn't make use of the embedded DAC. That task has been off-loaded to a real DAC, the PCM1794 which is amongst the best DAC according to Guru3D. That's why people say Titanium's DAC is better than STX's. So ZxR's SoundCore 3D is actually a stripped down version on Recon 3D's.
> I don't mind that. It's doesn't make the sound worse as CPUs have more than enough power to process all that so one won't see any impact on speed. And the design actually makes the sound better as the DAC is way better than what we had on Recon3D's and Titanium HD's analog hardware is back.
> It took them this long to take a Titanium HD, replace the audio processor with SoundCore3D and update the headphone amp... Anyway, it does really look to me that we have a winner here with the ZxR. My time waiting is soon arriving to an end... I really needed a audiophile gaming card.


 
   
  Spec wise, the Titanium HD's DAC chip (PCM1794) is superior to the Essence STX's DAC chip (PCM1792), but implementation plays a big part on this as well.
   
  First of all, I basically dismiss the entire Recon3D card series, as they're quite inferior to both the X-Fi series and the Z series, yet unfortunately they have high enough price tags that might mislead people into thinking they're actually worth getting.
   
  What Creative should've done was to update the Titanium HD's design, upgrading components, possibly adding a headphone amp that could be bypassed on command.
   
  Overall, if someone is looking for a high-end consumer internal soundcard and does light to medium gaming, the ZxR will fit the bill. For those who do little gaming but still some gaming, the Essence STX fits the bill. And for those who do medium to heavy gaming, the Titanium HD is the card to get.


----------



## Kel Ghu

Well the problem with Titanium was that hardware acceleration was a hassle to handle. Creative had to put too much effort in developing drivers and noone ever had a completely stable and reliable card. I can still read new threads about BSOD on Creative forum, which is not acceptable after all this time.

Just found out the headphone amp is the same one found on the ST/STX. So ZxR vs STX match-up (Line out/Headphone):
- DAC: ZxR wins (PCM1794 > PCM1792)
- Headphone Amp: Tie (Both TPA6120A2)
- OpAmp1: Tie ( Both JRC2114D)
- OpAmp2 : Electronically similar (LME49710NA vs LM4562, both are part of the LME49710 family, same size same specs).

It's funny how they are copying each other. Assuming implementation is the same, the ZxR can't be worse than the STX and the opamp difference is a matter of taste. I can't decide which card I want. ZxR doesn't have all the gaming things ans it is expensive. Titanium doesn't have the headphone amp and I don't want to risk having hardware problem, which I already have. And I'm on a budget, I can't buy an external amp.


----------



## Roller

Well, current drivers are very stable, unlike the first generation drivers available for the X-Fi family, with drivers now working flawlessly on Windows 7 and Windows 8.
   
  Getting a Titanium HD plus an entry-level amp like a PA2V2 isn't an expensive setup.
   
  What headphones are you using that require more than the headphone out (up to 330 Ohm) of the Titanium HD?


----------



## Kel Ghu

I sold everything, wanted to stop spending money on this stuff due to a baby. Kept an HD650 and K701 (not the easiest to drive), but I have no amp anymore. Wanted to keep my Benchmark DAC1, but I wouldn't be using the DAC and needed echo cancellation for conferencing, so I let it go. I still game and listen music from my desktop PC (headphones and speakers), but the onboard sound card just frustrates me. I need a audiophile gaming card and figured I would get the better headphone amp out there.

Titanium drivers may work for you. But from what I have seen on forums, it still has instabilities. So I don't know...


----------



## Roller

Ah, for those headphones I do recommend adding an amp.
   
  About the drivers, they work for basically every single person I've seen. Issues stem from poor driver installation procedures, which is why there are guidelines specified by the manufacturer.
   
  Bottomline is, if you do want proper gaming audio features, software based cards won't cut it. Getting a Titanium HD plus headphone amp will provide superior results to anything else available on the market.


----------



## Kel Ghu

The other problem I have is I always want the best. For sound cards, it's easy and fairly inexpensive... But for an external amp, I won't be satisfied by a cheap even good sounding device.


----------



## Roller

Then you have half your work cut out for you. For gaming purposes, the Titanium HD is the best card you can get. Amp wise, you can go as high as you want. Did you have a particular amp in mind?


----------



## Kel Ghu

No I don't. And I haven't thought about that really... And don't want to... It's going to be more money spending... My wife won't like that... 

But I think I made up my mind. After some more searching, I arrived to this conclusion. Hardware acceleration is bound to disappear. The most obvious exemple is Battlefield 3. FPS is the genre that needs sound processing the most. But developer DICE doesn't support any particular sound card for its game and, still, the sound effects are amazing I think. It probably has something to do with Microsoft ditching DirectSound HW acceleration support altogether since Vista. So based on that and the fact that I don't want to spend more money for an amp (for now), I'm going to go for that ZxR. It has the better DAC and headphone amp. Software-based sound processing will get better with time, I'm not to worried.

Thank you for your help Roller! Though... I'm still curious to know your amp suggestions...


----------



## Roller

Hehe, no one said being an audiophile was a cheap hobby 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  Given that you wanted an integrated unit with both DAC and amp for gaming, the ZxR is the better alternative. However, there are issues with having combo units, as the system gets less modular and limits upgrading. Also, Battlefield 3 is a good example of a game with a software audio renderer that still sounds better on the Titanium HD than on any other card because of the positional cue improvement algorithms that the X-Fi chip provides, and said algorithms work on all audio renderers. But, you've already made up your mind.
   
  Amp wise, the O2, the Schiit Asgard and the Matrix M-Stage are all worth looking into.
   
  In any case, I'm glad to help


----------



## Kel Ghu

I don't know what you mean by positional cues improvement. Do you mean CMSS-3D, THX TruStudio Pro and SBX Pro Studio?


----------



## Roller

None of that.
   
  People often mistake surround virtualization techs, like CMSS-3D, as the sole feature that can improve positional cues. Soundcards with a X-Fi chip have different modes to switch, one of which being Game Mode that has additional features related to gaming, including options to improve positional cue accuracy through the aforementioned algorithms, that can be used by themselves as well as along CMSS-3D. Those algorithms aren't present on any Creative cards older or newer than the X-Fi card series.


----------



## Kel Ghu

I can't find any mention of that anywhere. Game mode enables some additional EAX features, CMSS-3D... But nothing else I can find related to positional cues. And when I think about it, having 2 positional cues improvement processes running at the same time can't be good. What's is the name of the technology? Creative loves branding everything it makes.


----------



## Roller

Creative is known to have subpar marketing when it comes to advertising supported features on their cards, with something similar happening with the whole DTS support situation.
   
  Also, keep in mind that CMSS-3D is a surround virtualization tech, whose purpose is to add surround to the original signal and just happens to have positional cue improvements as a byproduct of the processing. Specific positional cue improvement algorithms work separated from that, and don't duplicate the improving of positional cues, they simply enhance them on their own.
   
  So, features that are related to gaming and exclusive to Creative X-Fi cards are:
  - Hardware EAX 5
  - Hardware OpenAL (cards with software OpenAL produce lower quality audio effects and have limited access to advanced game audio)
  - Hardware CMSS-3D (some software based cards also have CMSS-3D but done in software, the the processing quality isn't as good)
  - MacroFX
  - ElevationFilter
  - Audio pipeline offloading
   
  None of the above features are present on soundcards newer than the X-Fi series, nor on cards from other manufacturers.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





kel ghu said:


> But I think I made up my mind. After some more searching, I arrived to this conclusion. Hardware acceleration is bound to disappear. The most obvious exemple is Battlefield 3. FPS is the genre that needs sound processing the most. But developer DICE doesn't support any particular sound card for its game and, still, the sound effects are amazing I think. It probably has something to do with Microsoft ditching DirectSound HW acceleration support altogether since Vista. So based on that and the fact that I don't want to spend more money for an amp (for now), I'm going to go for that ZxR. It has the better DAC and headphone amp. Software-based sound processing will get better with time, I'm not to worried.
> Thank you for your help Roller! Though... I'm still curious to know your amp suggestions...


 
   
  I'd say that has more to do with the sound samples and overall sound design used. The positioning itself, if it's anything like Bad Company 2, is total crap, and the first four Battlefield games never had issues with positional audio. Why? DS3D (1942, Vietnam) and OAL (BF2, 2142). (And positional audio is just one of many complaints with the direction the series has taken after Bad Company 2, even 2142 to an extent...)
   
  Microsoft dropping DS3D definitely has a lot to do with it. I don't see any good reason for them to have done that. But even then, OpenAL remained unaffected, so why didn't game developers keep using that? It's quite baffling to me, and probably lies in all the politics surrounding PC game audio implementations that I don't particularly care for.
   
  Software audio may keep getting better, but as it stands, I'm still waiting for Microsoft, Firelight, and everyone else to just catch up to OpenAL + Rapture3D level, let alone surpass it. It probably won't happen unless the most unexpected thing happens and ambisonic audio formats become mainstream.


----------



## genclaymore

You might be waiting a long time from how it looks, since they sticking with either their own sound engine or some other forum of api which doesnt use openal. But I agree there no point trying to hold on to hardware acceration unless all the games you play are old ones which has H/W openAL. Because I haven't seen any new games use openA. It been mostly Xaudio2/Wwise or some other software api.


----------



## Roller

XAudio2 is just so... awful.
   
  Still, it should be noted that aside from being hardware accelerated, X-Fi cards still provide improved positional cue accuracy through their audio renderer agnostic algorithms. While the improvements aren't as large as running pure hardware audio renderers, still provides improvements over regular cards lacking said algorithms.
   
  There are quite some games using OpenAL, however Triple-A games aren't nearly as common as of late.


----------



## Kel Ghu

It's depressing to see developers abandoning OpenAL. No more true binaural 3D sound. Fortunately, only FPS is really affected... 




roller said:


> Also, keep in mind that CMSS-3D is a surround virtualization tech, whose purpose is to add surround to the original signal and just happens to have positional cue improvements as a byproduct of the processing. Specific positional cue improvement algorithms work separated from that, and don't duplicate the improving of positional cues, they simply enhance them on their own.




I don't agree here. Are you refering to CMSS-3D ability to use OpenAL and DS3D's 3D sound coordinates to create true binaural 3D sound instead of just plain flat virtualization from 7.1 source? Because I can't think of any better way to improve positional cues than using 3D coordinates. CMSS does not just have positional cues improvements as a byproduct of the processing, that's not right. It's the whole point of it. In DS3D and OpenAL games, CMSS uses the 3D sound APIs to render a 3D sonic scene then process it to create binaural 3D on headphone using head-related transfer function (once for each ear), the process is analog to 3D graphics rendering you would see in 3D with glasses (rendered once for each eye). (7.1 surround virtualization is probably rendered the same way, except the 3D coordinates are arbitrary, which are the 7+1 sources arbitrary distance from the listener, and everything is essentially on the same plane. It's binaural 3D on one horizontal plane.)
If that algorithm you are refering to doesn't make use of 3D coordinates which is only provided by 3D sound API, I can't see how it can improves positional sound cues other than doing some kind of in-house virtualization à la stereo to surround virtualization. Furthermore, if I understand it correctly, if one enables CMSS over the "positional cues improvement algorithm", it would mean the sound is processed twice for spatialization. That can't be good, the source for the 2nd processing would already be biased, unless CMSS takes it into account. It makes no sense to me to separate that algorithm from CMSS.
All this to say, I don't get your positional cue improvement thingy. Where did you get the information? I'm a scientist I can't just believe, sorry. 

With all this, I'm hesitating again... Maybe I should get a Titanium HD for older games and CMSS. CMSS's Binaural 3D sound really intrigues me. The 7.1 surround virtualisation sucks on paper compared to binaural. Damn you guys! 

But I have this question now, can THX TruStudio Pro or the new SBX ProStudio use DS3D and OpenAL 3D coordinates? Or should I say can they produce real binaural 3D sound?


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





kel ghu said:


> It's depressing to see developers abandoning OpenAL. No more true binaural 3D sound. Fortunately, only FPS is really affected...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Actually, positional cues are used on a lot more genres, not just FPS games. For instance, RTS games become much more immersive when better positional cues, as well as helping with competitive gaming by being able to easily pinpoint incoming units or even distinguish friends from foes.
   
  Again, you seem to fail to grasp the concept that CMSS-3D and the algorithms are entirely separate features that can work in tandem. Let me repeat it again, CMSS-3D and positional cue improvement algorithms aren't tied together, they can be used individually or combined, and there is no effect like "double amping". And no, it doesn't do any sort of virtualization, something that CMSS-3D does in the event a proper audio renderer isn't present, akin to what DH does on Asus cards.
   
  It might not make sense to you that CMSS-3D and positional cue improvement algorithms are separated, but that's just the way things are when the card mode is switched accordingly.
   
  It's quite simple, the Titanium HD is the absolute superior card for all gaming, legacy and modern, and there isn't a single card that can even match it, nevermind surpass it.
   
  THX TruStudio Pro has non-gaming features accelerated in hardware on PCIe based cards, with SBX Pro Studio sharing the same features. However, none of those packages have any sort of hardware acceleration for games, therefore no ability to use OpenAL and only basic DirectSound3D features.


----------



## genclaymore

Actually openAL does work in software, its is a open standard. It is not a hardware processing only feature.  Any sound card can use openAL thru software.  The only difference between hardware and software openAL is that in hardware the sound card processes the sound while software the cpu does.  Now for X-FI cards the Hardware acceleration was needed to use the X-FI EAX 3-5 or Audigy's EAX 3-4 features in windows vista/7/8 in OpenAL since there is not DS hal..  That is all moot now because some  years ago Creative killed off EAX in favor for EFX which can do all what EAX can do but is open source.  They're haven't been any new EAX5 games in a couple of years now. So there's no point getting a X-FI sound card just for hardware acceleration for the EAX features, Unless  you play alot of your older titles which uses EAX3-5. But For newer titles, Then any sound card is game just get one that has the features that you want.  The Unreal engine used to be OpenAL+EFX With UT3 being one of the games off the top of my head that did it, but after that. They started using Wwise and Xaudio2 in it place.
   
  Also today cpus are alot faster then they used to be, so they don't have problems handling the processing of sound like they used to, this isn't the 1990s where doing it on the cpu hurted your game performance. Sorry roller i disagree with you but only if you not playing older titles or older Direct 3D hal titles and games that came after wards that are using software API's or software engines. Because you can wish all you want for them to go back to EAX3-5+Openal. It isn't gonna happen as creative is pasted that. They only include there EAX features still on their sound cards for compatibility support, for people who still play the older titles that supported EAX3-5.
   
  Plus you should be going after a sound card that has the sound signature you want if it doesn't have op-amp sockets or you don't feel like op-amp rolling. Now of course openal it self isn't dead as it used in linux, It just more and more games are past openAl usage and using more of Xaudio2 which I dislike when they half arse it, or FmodEX+EFX or Rapture3D or  other software based engine they might use. I not bothered by it as long they do a good job with the sounds, making the games sound great and not half doing it *cough Serious Sam 3:BFE* . Now the only way I see openAL coming back in full force is if creative decides to start pushing EAX3-5 again. But they wont because they are pushing EFX instead. Yea I sure we still gonna see a random OpenAL game but remember that openAL game is using EFX and not EAX4/5 or that FMOD EX game is using EFX.
   
  But I disagree to see the as the only sound card you should buy if your a gamer X-FI  just because of the EAX3-5 compatibility,If that gamer doesn't play any old titles that with that function then it moot point and the EAX compatibility should be ignored when deciding on a sound card. the gamer should be looking at other features that matter to them, Not something that matter many years ago. The only thing that has really died is EAX and EFX took it place. Unlike EAX, EFX works with any sound card.


----------



## melmac

Hi, I read through this thread with interest, I have the creative Z since the end of October and I am more than happy with it. In fact I was shocked by how good it was. Now maybe I am influenced by the fact that loads of people said I was mad to buy a card without any reviews, that it was based on the recon3d chip and bound to be a lemon and that old chestnut whenever creative cards come up that their drivers are crap, their support is crap etc etc. So I was very relieved when the card came that the drivers worked perfectly, the card sounded awesome.
   
  Now, I am not an audiophile nor do I have much knowledge of DACs and stuff like that, but I am getting into the whole sound thing. Things like moving from headsets to good stereo headphones, the JVC HArX900's, not the greatest but good for a guy starting on the audio ladder. I have good external speakers and a pioneer sc-lx71 receiver, I think that's the sc-05 in the states. The speakers are from XTZ. 
   
  Ok, just giving you all a bit of background on me   before the Z I had the Xonar DG installed, but also have an X-fi Fatility. The reason why this thread interested me so much is that I am big time FPS player. CS:Source and lately CS:GO and there was a lot of talk about cards with the X-Fi chip been better for positional audio. But this has been the complete opposite of my findings after testing out both cards. In every game I tried from Doom 3 to the witcher 2 I got much better positional cues when using the Z. I know my testing isn't very scientific or objective but I know my X-Fi card inside out and know how to get the absolute best positional audio out of it.
   
  If I was going to a lan tournament tomorrow and had to pick between the Z and the X-fi,  I would pick the Z.


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





genclaymore said:


> Actually openAL does work in software, its is a open standard. It is not a hardware processing only feature.  Any sound card can use openAL thru software.  The only difference between hardware and software openAL is that in hardware the sound card processes the sound while software the cpu does.  Now for X-FI cards the Hardware acceleration was needed to use the X-FI EAX 3-5 or Audigy's EAX 3-4 features in windows vista/7/8 in OpenAL since there is not DS hal..  That is all moot now because some  years ago Creative killed off EAX in favor for EFX which can do all what EAX can do but is open source.  They're haven't been any new EAX5 games in a couple of years now. So there's no point getting a X-FI sound card just for hardware acceleration for the EAX features, Unless  you play alot of your older titles which uses EAX3-5. But For newer titles, Then any sound card is game just get one that has the features that you want.  The Unreal engine used to be OpenAL+EFX With UT3 being one of the games off the top of my head that did it, but after that. They started using Wwise and Xaudio2 in it place.
> 
> Also today cpus are alot faster then they used to be, so they don't have problems handling the processing of sound like they used to, this isn't the 1990s where doing it on the cpu hurted your game performance. Sorry roller i disagree with you but only if you not playing older titles or older Direct 3D hal titles and games that came after wards that are using software API's or software engines. Because you can wish all you want for them to go back to EAX3-5+Openal. It isn't gonna happen as creative is pasted that. They only include there EAX features still on their sound cards for compatibility support, for people who still play the older titles that supported EAX3-5.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Indeed, software OpenAL is available on all devices, while hardware OpenAL is limited to Creative Audigy and X-Fi cards. And due to being an open standard, it's used not only on Linux but also on mobile devices, even on walled gardens like iOS.
   
  About games that run on OpenAL with hardware support, you can be sure that sound effects simply aren't as good when running software OpenAL, with Race Driver Grid, Dirt Series, Battlefield Series and Bioshock as a couple excellent examples of that.
   
  Resource usage is relatively a moot point, precisely due to higher processing power of currently available CPUs, yet anyone who goes after absolute performance will want that minor performance hit to be inexistent.
   
  Also, let's not forget that X-Fi cards still have a minor but still present advantage due to their Game Mode providing positional cue improvement algorithms that are audio renderer agnostic, meaning even basic renderers (basic in the sense of sound maps) like XAudio2 benefit from it.
   
  Picking a soundcard based on signature is a sensible thing to do, but given that current flagship internal cards are already very close to neutral, that's less of a concern. Also, higher end cards like Auzentech cards, the Essence STX and the Titanium HD all have replacable opamps, allowing for as much rolling as one desires.
   
  Basically, modern games have improved sample quality quite a bit, but lost a lot in terms of positional cue accuracy, which certainly isn't a good trade-off, especially since there is actually no need at all for that, again due to more than enough system resources being available to process proper audio with little to no overhead. Do note that while being quite excellent, Rapture3D's higher quality modes to take a noticeable performance hit on modern systems (up to 15% on quad core CPUs), and while the sound quality improvements are worth it, that's a situation that would be eliminated by offloading the whole audio pipeline to the soundcard's processor.
   
  FModEX is a curious renderer that could do so much more than it does, mainly due to developers not putting enough work on hardware extensions. And yes, EFX is open and works on a wide range of audio hardware, yet it doesn't render in software when hardware accelerated audio hardware is present.
   
  Now, if X-Fi cards are the only option for gamers? Certainly not. It just happens to be the best option, with all other options (including Creative's own newer cards) aiming to match X-Fi cards, gaming audio support wise.
   
  EDIT: melmac, did you configure both CS:S and CS:GO to enable hardware audio? And yes, basically all Source based games have hardware audio support, just that newer games have either limited options or made it hard enough to the point where .ini files must be configured and/or commands do be added at game's shortcuts.


----------



## Kel Ghu

Originally Posted by *Roller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif


> Actually, positional cues are used on a lot more genres, not just FPS games. For instance, RTS games become much more immersive when better positional cues, as well as helping with competitive gaming by being able to easily pinpoint incoming units or even distinguish friends from foes.
> 
> Again, you seem to fail to grasp the concept that CMSS-3D and the algorithms are entirely separate features that can work in tandem. Let me repeat it again, CMSS-3D and positional cue improvement algorithms aren't tied together, they can be used individually or combined, and there is no effect like "double amping". And no, it doesn't do any sort of virtualization, something that CMSS-3D does in the event a proper audio renderer isn't present, akin to what DH does on Asus cards.
> 
> ...


 
  -------------------------------------------------------------------------- My quote thing is messed up 
   
   
  I play a lot of starcraft 2 and dota2, positional sound is very minor. I don't think it doesn't give you an edge unless you are distracted and can't plan according to metagame.
   
  That's true, I still don't understand that positional cue thing. I can't see where it fits in the sound process, nor how and why. What you tell me is all fuzzy and not backed up it with any factual proof of it like links to technical/developer stuff. I don't see any real improvement of positional cue without coordinates. It's arbitrary to me. It may sound better to people, but has no value in terms of accuracy to me.
   
  I also do fail to grasp the fact it can work together, because as an engineer I can't imagine CMSS or the Algorithm using a sound that has already been positionaly altered to improve it. Original sound + coordinate processing = OK but if you process it with something else over it = not OK unless it's an integrated process, which you tell is not. So it makes no sense to me. No use of coordinates = arbitrary positional improvement. You seems to not understand the scientific rigor I try to put into understanding it. I need a tech sheet, but can't find it.
   
  I really do not believe hardware acceleration is better in terms of sound if everything is done correctly. A DSP like SoundCore 3D better than a software? Can't be, a DSP is usually the physical implementation of a software, whereas all-purpose CPUs are not, but you run software on the latter. X-Fi has pseudo-all-purpose EMU Risc CPU + 4 DSPs, but that means software is run on the CPU. It's not hardwired processing. Sound cards nowaday don't need any DSP nor a CPU. Hardware acceleration was used to offloads work from the main CPU, that's the only purpose when computers were slow. But desktop CPUs are way too powerful now. Even the best games can't use all my four cores fully and the grand majority of games make only use of 2 cores. Everything can be done on the CPU, which would be better as it would not have to deal with drivers before all the sound processing is over. A card now just need DAC and all the non-digital stuff. Hence the path sound cards are taking now. SoundCore 3D and other DSP are just there to make the cards more expensive and have something to brand for marketability. I realize now that X-Fi already had the quartet of DSPs that are now rebranded to SoundCore3D and rebranded the functions, they just stripped away the risc processor.

  I see no reasons for software-based stuff not to catch-up. Calculations are done the same way, but on different processors. But processors always give the same results, there's in no approximation in processors unless their memory width is different. So it's on the software side that lies the problem. But I fail to understand how they could mess that up. Algorithms are already there. Oh well...
   
  THX or SBX don't need to be hardware accelerated to make use of OpenAL or DS3D advanced features. And as X-Fi processing is software running on the EMU CPU, I see no reason that can't be made to run on usual CPU, hence I can't understand why a software wouldn't be able to access to OpenAL advanced features, especially that OpenAl is a software layer. That makes no sense. That, advanced features have not been implemented on THX or SBX is possible, but it's not the same as saying it can't access to it because it's not hardware accelerated.


----------



## Roller

I'll just say the following (as pointed on the previous post), the currently highest quality OpenAL renderer uses up to 15% on a quad core CPU (which is far from negligible). 15% of CPU cycles is a rather significant performance hit, one that would be entirely avoided by offloading it to the audio processor. And yes, overhead is minimal enough to be imperceptible by both human eye as well as by numbers.
   
  OpenAL's advanced features are only available on hardware based cards. That's not a limitation of software based cards themselves, but rather how advanced audio features have always been implemented through OpenAL, but it doesn't need to be the case. Also, said features haven't been implemented on THX TruStudio Pro nor on SBX Pro Studio because those software packages aren't simple rebrands of the original X-Fi package, they only have a few features, with basically all ported features not being related to gaming.
   
  And an easy way for you to understand the difference between hardware and software processing on the exact same feature is to listen to CMSS-3D done by a software based card like a Creative X-Fi XtremeAudio (not a true X-Fi card due to the lack of the X-Fi chip), then listen to CMSS-3D done by a hardware based card like any Creative X-Fi Titanium card. The resulting output isn't nearly the same, and it's audibly different.
   
  And in the event you're wondering why sheets haven't been posted or linked, think of the events that started in 2008 and lasted some time, and the issues that surrounded a certain individual. That served as a warning for other people.
   
  About your quote features being messed up, try clearing the cache and forcing a refresh, that should sort it out.


----------



## halcy

I'm in a bit of a jam, maybe you guys can help out.  I have been using a Realtek ALC 892 onboard audio for awhile to drive my Sennheiser HD 580s, it seemed fine to me, no hum or hiss, decent volume, etc.  I recently bought a Dayton Audio DTA-100a to drive a pair of RBH MC-4C speakers on my desk, which now uses the output from the soundcard, and I planned to plug my headphones into the headphone socket on the DTA-100a and use it to drive them.  The amp seems to drive my speakers fine, but does a terrible job at the headphones: low volume levels and it introduced a background hiss.  I tried a different input from my phone and laptop, and using either of them as a source eliminated the hiss when the headphones are plugged into the Dayton.  So apparently I need a new soundcard with cleaner output, but unfortunately that will not eliminate the low volume problem on the amp.  I also want to avoid a solution that requires plugging/unplugging anything from behind my computer, as that is a major pain.  So I have a few questions:
   

 Is there a compact AMP available that can drive both my HD 580s AND my RBH speakers?
 Does an AMP exist that also can take a COAX digital input coming from my onboard Realtek audio?
 If the answer to both of the above is no, then one solution would be to get a Creative Z card and leave my headphones plugged in to it, and the line out to the Dayton for the RBH speakers.  Would the built in amp on a Z card be a significant step up from what I have been using (for headphone listening)?  And is there any reason for me to get the ZxR vs just the plain Z?
   
  Thanks!


----------



## turokrocks

Quote :
   
 Today, 12:04 PM#17​
  *Colin-CL*






*Administrator*

   Join Date  Jun 2008  Posts  50    


  Re: Creative ZxR - release date


> Hi people,
> 
> A new year begins and I have some good news to announce!
> 
> ...


----------



## turokrocks

Cut/paste from :
  http://personalaudio.ru/detail/foto_kart_sound_blaster_z_i_zxr_iznutri/
   
During the interview , we at Creative Presentations hyped cards removed covers that would make a picture of the internal map and see what's inside. Samples have not serial, prototypes, so the final form may be slightly different.The room was quite dark, the photos turned out this is not the best quality. 

[size=18px !important] Overview Sound Blaster ZxR[/size] Zx card was not possible to make out, as She was clinging to power for the interior lighting. As it turned out ZxR?Photos Sound Blaster ZxR in high resolution >> used as DAC PCM1794, as in Titanium HD! The remaining four channels serving two PCM1798. This confirms my assumption that ZxR rival the Titanium HD, Elite Pro and Asus Essenses STX / ST, and not only Phoebus , as suggested by some participants in the forums. However, after the release of the first line on the Recon3D can understand them quite pessimistic. Picture Sound Blaster ZxR inside in high resolution >> Sound Blaster ZxR photos in high resolution >> OU in the path of the linear output, two per channel as a JRC 2114 and LME 4971, to a first approximation suggests that the circuitry is similar to X-Fi Titanium HD. The changes were made ​​capacitors, now it's gold series from Nichicon «Fine Gold». All grown-up, according to Hi-End. remaining channels, rear and subwoofer to the center served through the PCM1798 and JRC 2114. In this perspective, Asus Essenses ST with H6 daughterboard on the PCM1796 and customizable OS is a bit better, but more expensive. Fee H6, by the way, got up and at least be a technical test. Headphone served with 6120A2, the same chip used in the Asus Essenses ST / STX. Daughter Board provides optical input and output, as well as line-level analog stereo input . as ADC is PCM 4220, as in the X-Fi Titanium HD. You can see that on the board so there is another Recon3D, making ZxR «dual-core." In practice, this means that the effects of the ADC hardware serves some Recon3D, a DAC is used for another. ZxR What superior Titanium HD? First of all its multi-channel output, for Titanium HD is the only stereokartoy as Asus Essenses STX. But for Asus Essenses ST ZxR direct competitor, as ST also can be extended to multi-channel output via a daughter card with DAC-rods on PCM 1796. The second advantage is the use of a large jack for headphones, as the Almost all the older models use a large headphones jack adapter and quality is not added. ZxR What surpasses Elite Pro? This ability to change the OS and using PCM1794.Although in fairness, it should be noted that the CS4398 also top-end and for the sound quality will be responsible only implementation. In terms of quantitative specifications PCM1794 better. ZxR What gives Elite Pro and Titanium HD? This is as good as the implementation of sound and Direct3D OpenAl, proposing instead an enhanced voice communications. headphone amplifier also performed on individual elements embedded in the Recon3D is not used. 
  






  






  











  






  






  






  

  











  






  






  






  






  




[size=18px !important] Overview Sound Blaster Z[/size]  At the moment, there are more *recent review Creative SoundBlaster Z*






Based on the specifications, Z did not expect to see anything of interest, however, was a pleasant surprise in the form of availability of CS4398, which is used in the X-Fi Elite Pro. Otherwise card is something special stands. Other channels apparently provides internal converters in Recon3D. Given the price and range of ASUS, will be in direct competition with Xonar D1 and Xonar DX. Novelties more than interesting, wait for them to remain a subjective test. More interesting information about the new line of sound cards Creative found in:


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





halcy said:


> I'm in a bit of a jam, maybe you guys can help out.  I have been using a Realtek ALC 892 onboard audio for awhile to drive my Sennheiser HD 580s, it seemed fine to me, no hum or hiss, decent volume, etc.  I recently bought a Dayton Audio DTA-100a to drive a pair of RBH MC-4C speakers on my desk, which now uses the output from the soundcard, and I planned to plug my headphones into the headphone socket on the DTA-100a and use it to drive them.  The amp seems to drive my speakers fine, but does a terrible job at the headphones: low volume levels and it introduced a background hiss.  I tried a different input from my phone and laptop, and using either of them as a source eliminated the hiss when the headphones are plugged into the Dayton.  So apparently I need a new soundcard with cleaner output, but unfortunately that will not eliminate the low volume problem on the amp.  I also want to avoid a solution that requires plugging/unplugging anything from behind my computer, as that is a major pain.  So I have a few questions:
> 
> 
> Is there a compact AMP available that can drive both my HD 580s AND my RBH speakers?
> ...


 
  I guess the Creative Z sound card is one way to solve your issue.
  Did you have a budget?


----------



## halcy

Quote: 





purpleangel said:


> I guess the Creative Z sound card is one way to solve your issue.
> Did you have a budget?


 
   
  Nothing set in stone, but I'd prefer to keep the final solution as affordable as possible. I considered some amps that contain DACs, but in addition to listening to music I also do some gaming on my PC so I'm not sure how well an external DAC would work with gaming.  One possibility without buying a new sound card would be using the digital out on my onboard sound and going in to something like a Maverick Audio D1 to run the headphones, then RCAs from it to the Dayton Audio to run the speakers.  But I think the ZxR is at a similar price point to the Maverick D1 and (please correct me if I am wrong) could perform the same headphone amping functionality and clean output to the Dayton Audio, do a better job in positional audio in games than my onboard sound, and save me from having something else on my desk taking up space and consuming power.
   
  One question that isn't clear in my mind, is if the ZxR is going to be worth the extra ~$150 premium over the Z?


----------



## turokrocks

Review of the ZXR: http://www.expertreviews.co.uk/gadgets/1296526/creative-sound-blaster-zxr


----------



## halcy

Hmmm no option for virtual surround sound on the headphone port is kind of troubling.


----------



## NamelessPFG

My two cents on the "software vs. hardware OpenAL" debate can be distilled to this:
   
  The software implementation can theoretically equal the hardware implementation if done properly, but the software implementation that Creative uses on the Recon3D devices (and the USB X-Fi devices, and anything else that isn't a proper Audigy or X-Fi with hardware acceleration) is flawed compared to their hardware implementation, such that some games sound a bit off or even refuse to work with it. (Thief 1 and 2 were notorious examples 'til those newdark patches suddenly showed up and added native OpenAL support. Battlefield 2 and 2142 in X-Fi mode can also be quite picky.)
   
  This is far from the first time that Creative has changed behavior in newer products that throws off games designed around their older hardware. The most glaring example would probably be the Sound Blaster Pro with dual OPL2s, later replaced by the Sound Blaster Pro 2.0 with a single OPL3 that the Sound Blaster 16 and AWE32 after it would continue to adopt. Games coded with the dual OPL2 card in mind for stereo music might come out sounding mono on a single OPL3 card. (And then there's the replacement of genuine OPL3 cores with CQM emulation that many find inferior, among other things...)
   
  Machine-translated reviews are a bit difficult for me to read, so I'll wait for some opinions from native English speakers. Better yet, I'd review the cards myself, but don't want to spend money to do so. (That's already cost me $70 with the Recon3D USB.)


----------



## genclaymore

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> My two cents on the "software vs. hardware OpenAL" debate can be distilled to this:
> 
> The software implementation can theoretically equal the hardware implementation if done properly, but the software implementation that Creative uses on the Recon3D devices (and the USB X-Fi devices, and anything else that isn't a proper Audigy or X-Fi with hardware acceleration) is flawed compared to their hardware implementation, such that some games sound a bit off or even refuse to work with it. (Thief 1 and 2 were notorious examples 'til those newdark patches suddenly showed up and added native OpenAL support. Battlefield 2 and 2142 in X-Fi mode can also be quite picky.)
> 
> ...


 
   
   
  I did own a external SB live 24bit usb and then  much later on a Auzentech bravura which is are software based creative chips devices, During the time with both, I haven't had any games that cause issues that where OpenAL. I was using the SB live 24bit USB around when Windows Vista came out. I don't remember if I played any of the thief series with them at the time. But I did play other games which did work just fine, That did not give me issues with them. I even played sacred 2 with the SB live 24bit usb, and the game was OpenAL based and didn't give me any issues at all.Other then it dropping to EAX4, Due to the SBlive 24bit usb not supporting EAX5 of course. But I remember cleary, that I didn't have a game that refused to start up with the SB live 24bit USB, nor the Bravura that I had much much later on.  The only time where I had a game not sounding right, was when I'm using a Asus Xonar sound card using the EAX5 emulation function which was trash.
   
  I saw your thread  at the time you was trying to sell your Recon3D usb, The only reason I didn't jump on your deal was because of it not having a optical out. That I needed at the time, to plug into my external dac, Since my VIA on-board audio had glitched drivers, With major volume issue, That VIA refused to do any thing about. Which is the only reason I  have a Recon3D PCI-E other then me grabbing a used one off amazon for like 45 dollars,Yea I know about the X-Fi Titanium PCI-E (NON HD) that was there,But I didn't care about hardware acceleration, As I have a fast computer any way,Besides not being effected by not having it,With the other sound cards I had before going external.. Because I surely wasn't about to get it new. Just to fix the Issue I was having with the on-board audio glitch. I would had prefer VIA did something, But they don't care. At-least I have settings that I find very useful on it that I use for my movie's and gaming which I turn all off with a profile when I go to listen to music.
   
  Quote: 





halcy said:


> Hmmm no option for virtual surround sound on the headphone port is kind of troubling.


 
   
  Actually there is, it under SBX Pro studio option, You config it the same exact way that you normally config it , when your doing CMSS3D headphone or Dolby headphone. In this case you set windows speakers to 5.1 or you can do it in the Z/Recon3D control panel, Then switch it to headphones it will still be set on 5.1 in windows speakers and Z/recon3D control panel. Then enable SBX pro Studio Virtual headphone setting or whatever it called and move the slider to the way you want it then enjoy.  It pretty much the same thing I do with the Recon3D PCI-E but with Thu studio pro instead of it being labelled SBX Pro. Which I been doing when ever I game,Yes it does work with optical as well. If you plugged in a external dac and have send signal thru optical in the adv tab.   You might have to play with the settings, til you get it the way you want when your gaming.


----------



## turokrocks




----------



## KetchupNinja

Did you decide on what card to get Kel Ghu?  I'm pretty much in the same situation as you.


----------



## BetaWolf

It's between the HT Omega Claro Halo and the Sound Blaster ZxR for me. It all depends on reviews for the ZxR. *Crosses fingers*


----------



## turokrocks

Quote: 





betawolf said:


> It's between the HT Omega Claro Halo and the Sound Blaster ZxR for me. It all depends on reviews for the ZxR. *Crosses fingers*


 
  A small Note, one is PCI, the other is PCI- Express.


----------



## BetaWolf

Quote: 





turokrocks said:


> A small Note, one is PCI, the other is PCI- Express.


 

 Yeah, I know, but that doesn't affect audio performance. A small note, Turok does indeed rock.


----------



## turokrocks

Quote: 





betawolf said:


> Yeah, I know, but that doesn't affect audio performance. A small note, Turok does indeed rock.


 
  LOL...Thanks, what I meant is that one should make sure that his MB supports PCI (non express) ,as I have the asus p8z77-v deluxe, which is missing a PCI port.


----------



## NamelessPFG

I still think it's important to note what interfaces are being used not necessarily for performance reasons, but because everyone's desktop configuration is different, often leading to cases where only one particular type of slot is free on the motherboard. Especially SLI/CrossFire setups where most of the slots are blocked off by graphics cards with double-slot (sometimes even triple-slot) HSFs.
   
  A small note: *CEREBRAL BORE!*


----------



## turokrocks

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> I still think it's important to note what interfaces are being used not necessarily for performance reasons, but because everyone's desktop configuration is different, often leading to cases where only one particular type of slot is free on the motherboard. Especially SLI/CrossFire setups where most of the slots are blocked off by graphics cards with double-slot (sometimes even triple-slot) HSFs.
> 
> A small note: *CEREBRAL BORE!*


 
  ..Also the ZXR comes as a dual card solution (but requires only one PCI express slot).
   
  A small note :


----------



## BetaWolf

The daughterboard is mainly for audio capture and recording though, right? Also, is the Claro Halo the best HT Omega card for headphones?
   
  A small note: Chronoscepter!


----------



## KetchupNinja

After doing a little research, I found that many Titanium HD owners are upgrading or plan to upgrade to the ZxR series card.  That being said, the Titanium HD can be had at a price lower than ~$100.  With the specs being almost similar, wouldn't it better just to get a used Titanium HD and an external amp?  I was thinking the Schiit Magni + the HD.


----------



## genclaymore

They might want the option to do analog 5.1 again, Instead of doing it over digital with the DD live or DTS encoders.


----------



## Kel Ghu

Quote: 





ketchupninja said:


> Did you decide on what card to get Kel Ghu?  I'm pretty much in the same situation as you.


 
   
1) Future games are not going to be using OpenAL or DS3D, so I see no point in getting the Titanium HD. Creative still has the best non-hardware accelerated gaming features for their cards, which sadly fits today's gaming.
  2) SQ-wise, ZxR has the best from both STX (Headamp) and TiHD (DAC).
   
  I'm going for the ZxR and probably try OpAmp rolling. I'm much more a computer poweruser than an audiophile. I don't want to spend too much money nor do I want to "clutter" my desktop. So the easiest way is to cut out external amplifiers for both the speakers and headphones. Active monitors is the first solution. ZxR's headamp is the second and will be reasonably enough for my needs.


----------



## KetchupNinja

Quote: 





kel ghu said:


> 1) Future games are not going to be using OpenAL or DS3D, so I see no point in getting the Titanium HD. Creative still has the best non-hardware accelerated gaming features for their cards, which sadly fits today's gaming.
> 2) SQ-wise, ZxR has the best from both STX (Headamp) and TiHD (DAC).
> 
> I'm going for the ZxR and probably try OpAmp rolling. I'm much more a computer poweruser than an audiophile. I don't want to spend too much money nor do I want to "clutter" my desktop. So the easiest way is to cut out external amplifiers for both the speakers and headphones. Active monitors is the first solution. ZxR's headamp is the second and will be reasonably enough for my needs.


 
   
  Hmm It seems they have brought back hardware audio acceleration in Windows 8.  Link here: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/hardware/br259116
   
  With that being brought back, do you guys think we will see a re-emergence in support for hardware accelerated features?  I'm a little skeptical about it TBH seeing how developers now a days would rather not have to spend more time to develop for the few of us with above average sound cards.


----------



## kinubic

Got my soundblaster z few days ago as thr zxr was still out of stock.
Came with nichicon gold caps as opposed to others
That use G-Luxon and Fujicon caps.


----------



## kinubic

Sorry double post. Please delete.

On phone.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





ketchupninja said:


> After doing a little research, I found that many Titanium HD owners are upgrading or plan to upgrade to the ZxR series card.  That being said, the Titanium HD can be had at a price lower than ~$100.  With the specs being almost similar, wouldn't it better just to get a used Titanium HD and an external amp?  I was thinking the Schiit Magni + the HD.


 
   
  I'm not one of them. This is the first I've heard of a mass Titanium HD -> ZxR exodus...should make for a nice influx of cheap second-hand Titanium HD cards, at least. And, hopefully, a few good reviews.
   
  I'm generally in favor of using external amps with sound cards. Doubly so in my case, because no sound card amp is capable of powering electrostatic headphones like my Stax SR-Lambda.
   
  Quote: 





kel ghu said:


> 1) Future games are not going to be using OpenAL or DS3D, so I see no point in getting the Titanium HD. Creative still has the best non-hardware accelerated gaming features for their cards, which sadly fits today's gaming.
> 2) SQ-wise, ZxR has the best from both STX (Headamp) and TiHD (DAC).


 
   
  Am I seriously the last person on Head-Fi who still plays older PC games? Just because future games don't use hardware acceleration doesn't mean it retroactively changes how those older games handle audio...but believe me, if there were any sort of software OpenAL implementation that could function as perfectly as a real X-Fi card could, I wouldn't be tying myself so tightly to the Titanium HD.
   
  Too bad Creative of all companies can't even get a software OpenAL implementation right.
   
  Quote: 





ketchupninja said:


> Hmm It seems they have brought back hardware audio acceleration in Windows 8.  Link here: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/hardware/br259116
> 
> With that being brought back, do you guys think we will see a re-emergence in support for hardware accelerated features?  I'm a little skeptical about it TBH seeing how developers now a days would rather not have to spend more time to develop for the few of us with above average sound cards.


 
   
  It means nothing if the DirectSound3D API is still deprecated, as that's what most older games used for 3D audio (when they weren't using Aureal A3D instead). If that isn't brought back, then we would still need OpenAL wrappers for DS3D-based games, and chances are the new API isn't designed like DS3D and OAL in the sense of being designed to facilitate hardware-accelerated 3D audio in particular.
   
  Most likely, this little change in Windows 8 will go unnoticed by game developers as they continue using XAudio2 + X3DAudio, or FMOD Ex. Besides, using an API limited to Windows 8 would significantly limit the number of people who could take advantage of it anyway, especially given the backlash Windows 8 has received (and rightfully so).


----------



## Kel Ghu

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> Am I seriously the last person on Head-Fi who still plays older PC games? Just because future games don't use hardware acceleration doesn't mean it retroactively changes how those older games handle audio...but believe me, if there were any sort of software OpenAL implementation that could function as perfectly as a real X-Fi card could, I wouldn't be tying myself so tightly to the Titanium HD.
> 
> Too bad Creative of all companies can't even get a software OpenAL implementation right.


 
   
  You are probably amongst the few that still play older games. To me, hardware acceleration really only matters in FPS, that's where sound processing can flex its muscles. But why play BF2 over BF3? Graphics and gameplay still prevail over sound. The last older games I've played in the past few years was Colonization and Day of the Tentacle. But here it was not hardware acceleration that I was missing, but a Roland MT-32! 
   
  I am pretty sure a proper OpenAL software implementation can be done. Games barely use the power of more than 2 full cores. With most gamers having quad, there's power left for sound processing. But that's not the problem. The problem is that devs don't support OpenAL anymore and no one really knows the reasons...

 Let's hope DirectSound3D will be making its way back with a new release of DirectX for Windows 8. It's our only hope. Or make OpenAL somehow attractive again.


----------



## Kel Ghu

I wish 3D sound for games was fully rendered the way 3D graphics is. I wouldn't then mind buying a 3D sound card for $400+.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





kel ghu said:


> You are probably amongst the few that still play older games. To me, hardware acceleration really only matters in FPS, that's where sound processing can flex its muscles. But why play BF2 over BF3? Graphics and gameplay still prevail over sound. The last older games I've played in the past few years was Colonization and Day of the Tentacle. But here it was not hardware acceleration that I was missing, but a Roland MT-32!
> 
> I am pretty sure a proper OpenAL software implementation can be done. Games barely use the power of more than 2 full cores. With most gamers having quad, there's power left for sound processing. But that's not the problem. The problem is that devs don't support OpenAL anymore and no one really knows the reasons...
> 
> Let's hope DirectSound3D will be making its way back with a new release of DirectX for Windows 8. It's our only hope. Or make OpenAL somehow attractive again.


 
   
  For that underlined part, gameplay IS the biggest reason. BF2 may have had a basic unlock system, but it was more of a nice extra, not made into the total grindfest that ruined the series since BF2142. (Which is a shame, as I liked the sci-fi setting of BF2142 and the Titan gametype.) There was no crazy overpowered M60 + Magnum Ammo crap that anyone without instantly became fragbait even a month from release. I hadn't seen a Battlefield game with that much weapon imbalance since Vietnam's infamous M60 + LAW kit!
   
  In the old days of FPSs, Battlefield included, every player pretty much had all the options available to them from the get-go (save a few unlockable primary weapons that weren't really all that game-breaking in BF2's case), which is how a competitive FPS should be. No being forced to grind through the game just to get the decent equipment on a game-wide scale, which is made harder when you're fighting against people who have said decent equipment and are thus dying all the time. It's just bad game design to me.
   
  They also still supported mods back then, something that stopped happening with Bad Company 2, along with users being able to run their own dedicated servers (they're really just renting servers from EA and DICE). The former point may not have been taken advantage of much, but remember that BF1942's Desert Combat mod was what paved the way for BF2.
   
  That latter point means that every post-BC2 Battlefield game on PC (maybe even 2142 as well due to its heavier dependence on a player account for unlocks compared to BF2, for which you could set up offline accounts and LAN play that could be tunneled) will eventually die out when EA pulls the master server plug, as they've been known to do in the past. They will never be able to do that for 1942, Vietnam, or BF2, and thus they'll survive for as long as the community keeps playing them...and believe me, there are still a fair number of people playing those games right now.
   
  Also, in terms of graphics, BF2 doesn't look like it's trying to give me eye cancer with overdone lens flare effects. BF3 seems like it's screaming "Hey, check out these fancy pixel shader effects we can do now!" without really considering whether it's actually a good stylistic choice or not.
   
  Finally...who thought having a Web site for a main menu was a good idea? Seriously, I want to slap the guy at EA or DICE who decided to do that crap for BF3.
   
  So, yes, I have a number of reasons for preferring older FPSs to newer ones in general, not just the Battlefield series in particular, and most of that actually does boil down to gameplay.
   
  Now that I've got all that off my chest, I do agree in that the central issue at hand with modern games, audio-wise, is that they aren't using OpenAL or at least using a software audio mixer with some sort of binaural HRTF headphone 3D surround mix option, and instead treating it as one-dimensional stereo. I'm not sure what it'll take to get the game developers to care at this point, but it'll probably take a robust, easy-to-use middleware like FMOD or Wwise to get their attention.


----------



## Kel Ghu

Hahaha! I agree with all you have said. Even though it's not really about the actual gameplay mechanics you are complaining, but rather game balance, user interface and a problem of convenience which is grinding (because we don't have time for that which is a consequence of not being 10 years old anymore. But the "great" idea now is paying for it.). Though, it doesn't make it worth enough for people to remain on older games on the long term. Community is, but it is often hindered by ******** kids. And no matter what we say, newer games will almost always steal the show. Photorealism is king in the mainstream market, which I understand. Gameplay comes 2nd. And sound realism, dead last...


----------



## chewy4

I really did hate the unlock system for BF3. Especially the vehicle part. I bought the game for PC for $10 and haven't really played it because of it. I wasn't a huge fan of having to grind to unlock simple stuff in the console version(it shouldn't take several hours just to unlock ground missles for a jet) and I don't want to do it over again.
   
  A lot of games are guilty of systems like this though. The worst is Mass Effect 3, where you can literally never unlock everything, but at least they use it as a means of funding DLC. It's like modern games are taking ideas from facebook games and just trying to make them addictive for completionists.


----------



## catspaw

http://www.creative.com/soundblaster/z/z/
   
  Specifications differ a bit  (SNR).


----------



## Kel Ghu

Quote: 





catspaw said:


> http://www.creative.com/soundblaster/z/z/
> 
> Specifications differ a bit  (SNR).


 
   
  Nothing new. They first annouced the SNR for the DACs which are 127dB and 120dB, for ZxR and Z/Zx respectively. Then the end-ouput, 120dB and 116dB.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

I thought id share my experience with this product which might help some out.

I recently purchased the Z about a week ago. I was using an essence STX for gaming primarily before this. Needless to say I wasn't impressed. Even though the DAC and amp were amazing for music, games had all sorts of audio glitches and problems. Crackling, popping, static. Also the lack of EAX and proper openal sucked. ASUS's implementation was mediocre at best.

So as much as I wanted the zxr I couldn't justify 250+ for a control module and daughter board of which I wouldn't use. Plus I can't find it for sale anywhere

So I bought the Z and I couldn't be happier. Honestly I don't notice a single difference in clarity or quality when using either my HD 598 or PC 350's (fpshero mod). The cards drivers are also amazing no hiccups at all and properly working EAX and openal (even though its software). The control panel is also easy to use and not.clunky like ASUS's. Surround hrtf is also superior to Dolby headphone in my opinion. 

So I have now committed to this card and will be selling my stx.

I rather have the zxr for the increased snr but if I don't notice a difference from my stx then why bother? 

Anyway if anyone has any questions I'd be happy to answer them.

Take care


----------



## kinubic

zxrs should be out around this week or so. been waiting for one. although i dont see the need to upgrade from  my z atm unless the zxr goes on sale for about 200


----------



## turokrocks

Quote: 





kinubic said:


> zxrs should be out around this week or so. been waiting for one. although i dont see the need to upgrade from  my z atm unless the zxr goes on sale for about 200


 
  Please update us when released, as I also need one.


----------



## BetaWolf

Quote: 





kel ghu said:


> I am pretty sure a proper OpenAL software implementation can be done. Games barely use the power of more than 2 full cores. With most gamers having quad, there's power left for sound processing. But that's not the problem. The problem is that devs don't support OpenAL anymore and no one really knows the reasons...


 
  Speaking about cores, the majority of major titles use 3 or 4 nowadays. I speak as someone who owned a Radeon HD 7850 and AMD Athlon II X2, and got subpar frames on low-mid settings until I upgraded my CPU.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

betawolf said:


> Speaking about cores, the majority of major titles use 3 or 4 nowadays. I speak as someone who owned a Radeon HD 7850 and AMD Athlon II X2, and got subpar frames on low-mid settings until I upgraded my CPU.




But those 4 cores are almost never fully loaded. There is plenty of overhead for sound processing in a modern quad core. And after proper optimization I don't.see why it wouldn't be a viable option.

The only reason why you see sub par performance from some games utilizing all cores is most likely a bad PC port from consoles. When companies get lazy they just offload majority of the game to the CPU(consoles do.this because their gpus are sub par).


----------



## Kel Ghu

Quote: 





betawolf said:


> Speaking about cores, the majority of major titles use 3 or 4 nowadays. I speak as someone who owned a Radeon HD 7850 and AMD Athlon II X2, and got subpar frames on low-mid settings until I upgraded my CPU.


 
   
  No. That's because the 2 main threads were running on low speed cores. After 2 threads, you get the well known diminishing returns because they have troubles loading multiple cores with calculations for graphics. It's far from being as easy as it sounds. For 1 core, your old CPU was much slower than you new CPU. Try disabling 2 cores, you will see the impact (or the non-impact should I say).


----------



## Kel Ghu

Quote: 





> Originally Posted in Creative's Forum by an Admin
> 
> Hi guys,
> 
> ...


 
   
  Sigh... I don't want to wait anymore...


----------



## BetaWolf

Quote: 





kel ghu said:


> No. That's because the 2 main threads were running on low speed cores. After 2 threads, you get the well known diminishing returns because they have troubles loading multiple cores with calculations for graphics. It's far from being as easy as it sounds. For 1 core, your old CPU was much slower than you new CPU. Try disabling 2 cores, you will see the impact (or the non-impact should I say).


 

 I know that the Athlon II X2 isn't the best dual core, but it was still powerful enough to run the Dolphin GameCube emulator at full speed, something very intensive that's only optimized for two cores. Mine was 3.2 GHz, essentially as fast as a Phenom II X2 without the L3 cache. On most PC titles, one core would be fully loaded, and the other would be more than halfway loaded. And I'd get a horrible framerate. While a Phenom II X2 or Core 2 Duo would have probably been "better", it wouldn't have been enough to pull my framerate completely out of the gutter.


----------



## Kel Ghu

Quote: 





betawolf said:


> I know that the Athlon II X2 isn't the best dual core, but it was still powerful enough to run the Dolphin GameCube emulator at full speed, something very intensive that's only optimized for two cores. Mine was 3.2 GHz, essentially as fast as a Phenom II X2 without the L3 cache. On most PC titles, one core would be fully loaded, and the other would be more than halfway loaded. And I'd get a horrible framerate. While a Phenom II X2 or Core 2 Duo would have probably been "better", it wouldn't have been enough to pull my framerate completely out of the gutter.


 
   
  What's the new CPU you've got? Still, go in the bios and disable 2 of your cores. I can't see any difference in BF3.


----------



## melterx12

Just got the sound blaster Z. I am using it with a pair of 2.1 speakers and mainly my ATH-M50 headphones. Immediatly after setting up I turned off all the post processing effects (they ruin the music IMO). I however noticed that music sounds a bit more clearer or has more "range" I would say when hooking up my headphones to the Front L/R main speaker jack rather than the headphone jack.
   
  Can anyone explain why this is? I am 100% sure I hear a difference but am not sure which jack is the correct one to use, meaning which one would give me the better audio experience?
   
  I am assuming the speaker jack does not use the headphone amp?


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





melterx12 said:


> Just got the sound blaster Z. I am using it with a pair of 2.1 speakers and mainly my ATH-M50 headphones. Immediatly after setting up I turned off all the post processing effects (they ruin the music IMO). I however noticed that music sounds a bit more clearer or has more "range" I would say when hooking up my headphones to the Front L/R main speaker jack rather than the headphone jack.
> 
> Can anyone explain why this is? I am 100% sure I hear a difference but am not sure which jack is the correct one to use, meaning which one would give me the better audio experience?
> 
> I am assuming the speaker jack does not use the headphone amp?


 
  Does the Sound Blaster Z have a gain setting for headphone output?


----------



## genclaymore

Maybe it uses a front panel design for the headphone amp, where you plug the front panel of your case into the sound card, To use the headphone amp unless it works both ways. Maybe it do it thru the level of the volume. Maybe like the more you raise the volume the more voltage it uses. Which it might be doing, tho If so i would figure they would have a headphone amp setting located some where in their software.


----------



## kinubic

You can plug in your front panel to the soundcard but as stated not sure if it uses the same.amp or its seperate


----------



## stv014

I may be wrong, but the specifications and some pictures of the Sound Blaster Z suggest that:
  - the headphone amplifier is a surface mount NJM4556, like on most other Sound Blaster products; it is not a TPA6120
  - it can output a maximum of about 2 Vrms, like the line outputs of most Xonar cards; so, it is not enough for everyone for 600 Ω headphones, but it just shows again that "ohm ratings" are rather meaningless, and it is real specifications (maximum voltage, output impedance, etc.) that matter
  - from the specs I estimate an output impedance of about 18 Ω. That is better than the 100 Ω impedance of an "unamplified" Xonar output, but still not great
  - I think the headphone output does not use the CS4398 DAC, because not only does it have much higher noise than the line output, but it does not support 192 kHz sample rate either
  - all analog inputs and outputs other than the (CS4398+NJM2114 based) front channel line out are apparently handled by an HD audio codec ?


----------



## Kel Ghu

Isn't it this way?
   
Speaker output: DAC > JRC2114D OpAmp > JRC4556A OpAmp > Speakers
  Headphone output: DAC > JRC2114D OpAmp > Maxim MAX97220A Headamp > Headphones
   
  Headamp specs: http://www.maximintegrated.com/datasheet/index.mvp/id/7138?ver=F&utm_expid=50713806-2


----------



## DJINFERNO806

stv014 said:


> I may be wrong, but the specifications and some pictures of the Sound Blaster Z suggest that:
> - the headphone amplifier is a surface mount NJM4556, like on most other Sound Blaster products; it is not a TPA6120
> - it can output a maximum of about 2 Vrms, like the line outputs of most Xonar cards; so, it is not enough for everyone for 600 Ω headphones, but it just shows again that "ohm ratings" are rather meaningless, and it is real specifications (maximum voltage, output impedance, etc.) that matter
> - from the specs I estimate an output impedance of about 18 Ω. That is better than the 100 Ω impedance of an "unamplified" Xonar output, but still not great
> ...




It was discussed on another forum(hard forums I think) where the creative rep explained that the headphone and line outs use the external dac and if you use the case front panel connector for headphones it will use the sound core 3d built in dac. Its a higher noise dac for sure. 

It would make sense since you have to switch outputs to either headphones or line outs. You can't use both.


----------



## melterx12

So bottom line would it be better to use the speaker jack or headphone jack (if both jacks are on the sound card itself)?


----------



## stv014

Quote: 





kel ghu said:


> Headphone output: DAC > JRC2114D OpAmp > Maxim MAX97220A Headamp > Headphones
> 
> Headamp specs: http://www.maximintegrated.com/datasheet/index.mvp/id/7138?ver=F&utm_expid=50713806-2


 
   
  That may be the case, I could not find out from the pictures what the small 16-pin chips are. I assumed that the NJM4556 is the headphone driver since it is also used on several other Creative products, and is reasonably well suited for this purpose (the DIP8 version that can handle higher power dissipation is used in a paralleled configuration in the O2). It is still odd that the headphone output is only specified to work at a maximum sample rate of 96 kHz, or does that apply only to the front panel ?


----------



## Kel Ghu

Quote: 





stv014 said:


> That may be the case, I could not find out from the pictures what the small 16-pin chips are. I assumed that the NJM4556 is the headphone driver since it is also used on several other Creative products, and is reasonably well suited for this purpose (the DIP8 version that can handle higher power dissipation is used in a paralleled configuration in the O2). It is still odd that the headphone output is only specified to work at a maximum sample rate of 96 kHz, or does that apply only to the front panel ?


 
   
  NJM4556 is the buffer stage of the speakers output (in place of the two LME49710 of ZxR), while JRC2114D is the I/V stage for both speakers and headphones.
  I guess the sample rates only applies to the front panel, as both speakers and headphones lines use CS DAC.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Quote: 





melterx12 said:


> So bottom line would it be better to use the speaker jack or headphone jack (if both jacks are on the sound card itself)?


 
  I would assume use the headphone jack especially if you are using higher than 32 Ohm impedence headphones.  I see no reason to use the line out.
   
   



kel ghu said:


> NJM4556 is the buffer stage of the speakers output (in place of the two LME49710 of ZxR), while JRC2114D is the I/V stage for both speakers and headphones.
> I guess the sample rates only applies to the front panel, as both speakers and headphones lines use CS DAC.


 

   
  That what I was thinking too.  Im pretty sure the specs on the creative site somehow refer to the front panel connections when speaking about the headphone jack.  
   
  It would make no sense for Creative to use a decent headphone amplifier just to have it use the soundcore3d dac which is pretty noisy compared to the CS dac.


----------



## kymira

Quote: 





melterx12 said:


> So bottom line would it be better to use the speaker jack or headphone jack (if both jacks are on the sound card itself)?


 
   
*melterx12*, did you end up figuring out which jack had the better SQ?
    
  Quote:


djinferno806 said:


> I would assume use the headphone jack especially if you are using higher than 32 Ohm impedence headphones.  I see no reason to use the line out.


 
   
*DJINFERNO806, *When you say "headphone Jack" Are you referring to the dedicated one in the rear or the front audio "headphone" jack?


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Quote: 





kymira said:


> *melterx12*, did you end up figuring out which jack had the better SQ?
> 
> *DJINFERNO806, *When you say "headphone Jack" Are you referring to the dedicated one in the rear or the front audio "headphone" jack?


 
  I'm referring to the dedicated headphone jack on the back, the amplified one.
   
   I don't ever use the front audio headphone jack, the PC ecosystem is a crap show of noise just waiting to interfere with that front audio port.  That and you would be putting the headphone amp to waste lol.


----------



## kymira

Quote: 





djinferno806 said:


> I'm referring to the dedicated headphone jack on the back, the amplified one.
> 
> I don't ever use the front audio headphone jack, the PC ecosystem is a crap show of noise just waiting to interfere with that front audio port.  That and you would be putting the headphone amp to waste lol.


 
   
  OK thanks I assumed you were. One of the very reasons why Im looking into the SB Z series is the convenience of having that dedicated headphone jack. My front audio has way too much noise to be tolerable and Im getting a bit tired of having to constantly switch and fish jacks between headphone & speakers in my narrow crapped space.


----------



## stv014

Quote: 





djinferno806 said:


> I would assume use the headphone jack *especially if you are using higher than 32 Ohm impedence headphones*.  I see no reason to use the line out.


 
   
  A line output is likely to work better (or less badly, depending on your point of view) with a high impedance load than with a low impedance one. A line input normally has an impedance of at least several kΩ, and that is what a line output is designed to handle best. In the particular case of the Sound Blaster Z, however, if the line output has the same maximum voltage (2 Vrms unloaded) as the line out, and is indeed driven by an NJM4556, it could in fact work decently with headphone loads, the only potential problem is high output impedance and/or capacitor coupling (both of which degrade the sound of _low_ impedance headphones more).


----------



## melterx12

What I'm saying is to me music sounds a little clearer or better and has more definition through my headphones when connected to the line out versus headphone jack (a little, but noticeably so). It is hard to explain since i am not an audiophile. If anyone else can test this with their headphoneS and report back that would be great


----------



## DJINFERNO806

stv014 said:


> A line output is likely to work better (or less badly, depending on your point of view) with a high impedance load than with a low impedance one. A line input normally has an impedance of at least several kΩ, and that is what a line output is designed to handle best. In the particular case of the Sound Blaster Z, however, if the line output has the same maximum voltage (2 Vrms unloaded) as the line out, and is indeed driven by an NJM4556, it could in fact work decently with headphone loads, the only potential problem is high output impedance and/or capacitor coupling (both of which degrade the sound of _low_ impedance headphones more).




Fair enough. I actually wasn't aware that's how it worked. 


*Melterx12* Are you sure you didn't change anything in the sbx pro studio. The speaker outputs and the headphone outputs might be storing different settings. Switch back and forth and see what settings differ.


----------



## melterx12

all the SBX settings are off. the only difference is using headphone jack the Speaker/Headphone configuration setting is forced to "headphone" while line out I use "Stereo" with Left and Right speakers "Full Range" box checked.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

melterx12 said:


> all the SBX settings are off. the only difference is using headphone jack the Speaker/Headphone configuration setting is forced to "headphone" while line out I use "Stereo" with Left and Right speakers "Full Range" box checked.




Maybe the full range changes the low frequency crossover and that accounts for the sound difference.


----------



## melterx12

EDIT: I tried playing music while turning full range setting on and off and do not notice any difference whatsoever, so I do not think it is that.


----------



## BetaWolf

Shame about the delay. Product page for the ZxR is up now though.
  http://us.store.creative.com/Creative-Sound-Blaster-ZxR-PCIe-Sound/M/B00AQ5PK6I.htm


----------



## Kel Ghu

Quote: 





betawolf said:


> Shame about the delay. Product page for the ZxR is up now though.


 
   
  It's been up for a little while now. Though, bad news... Release has been postponed to March: http://jp.creative.com/corporate/pressroom/releases/welcome.asp?pid=13305


----------



## xeizo

melterx12 said:


> EDIT: I tried playing music while turning full range setting on and off and do not notice any difference whatsoever, so I do not think it is that.




I would guess why the line output is a little more clear is because it is a more direct path straight from the JRC2114D, no heaphone amp, so the heaphone amp is apparently not transparent on this card. Good that your phones are so easily driven you can use that output. Personally I believe the most optimal solution would be to use a high class headphone amp connected to the line out, instead of the built in headphone amp. The potential for really high end sound seems to be there, as the aforementioned russian site could barely hear a difference between the Creative Z and a several times more expensive EMU 1616 using line out played back through high end gear. The same thing applies to Xonar ST/STX afaik, they sound better from their RCA-outputs than from their headphone amp even though the headphone amp is what got them highly acclaimed.

Anyway, I just received a Creative Z which I will put through it's paces in a few days. It's meant for my gaming box which is current high end hardware and Win 8, my box for music playback running Linux already has a Xonar ST so it will be easy to compare. I also have Xonar DX, Xonar DG, Audiophile 2496 and X-Fi XtremeGamer if I want to put my observations in perspective.

One interesting sidenote is that my sample of Creative Z also has Nichicon Fine Gold caps in all positions, the same as in Xonar ST, I suppose I'm lucky


----------



## Kel Ghu

Quote: 





xeizo said:


> Anyway, I just received a Creative Z which I will put through it's paces in a few days. It's meant for my gaming box which is current high end hardware and Win 8, my box for music playback running Linux already has a Xonar ST so it will be easy to compare. I also have Xonar DX, Xonar DG, Audiophile 2496 and X-Fi XtremeGamer if I want to put my observations in perspective.


 
   
  Can't wait to hear your conclusions.


----------



## Evshrug

xeizo said:


> I would guess why the line output is a little more clear is because it is a more direct path straight from the JRC2114D, no heaphone amp, so the heaphone amp is apparently not transparent on this card. Good that your phones are so easily driven you can use that output. Personally I believe the most optimal solution would be to use a high class headphone amp connected to the line out, instead of the built in headphone amp. The potential for really high end sound seems to be there, as the aforementioned russian site could barely hear a difference between the Creative Z and a several times more expensive EMU 1616 using line out played back through high end gear. The same thing applies to Xonar ST/STX afaik, they sound better from their RCA-outputs than from their headphone amp even though the headphone amp is what got them highly acclaimed.
> 
> Anyway, I just received a Creative Z which I will put through it's paces in a few days. It's meant for my gaming box which is current high end hardware and Win 8, my box for music playback running Linux already has a Xonar ST so it will be easy to compare. I also have Xonar DX, Xonar DG, Audiophile 2496 and X-Fi XtremeGamer if I want to put my observations in perspective.
> 
> One interesting sidenote is that my sample of Creative Z also has Nichicon Fine Gold caps in all positions, the same as in Xonar ST, I suppose I'm lucky


----------



## Anarion

I just switched from Forte to Zx. It definitely does sound different and in my opinion the ACM is a must or the volume output is just way too high. I'm using Sennheiser HD 595. I've also wondered whether or not it would be better to just use the lien out instead, I've tried to do testing between headphone out and line out but to be honest, I’m not sure if I can really tell the difference (there doesn't even seem to be volume difference), though line-out does seem to sound a bit cleaner and have higher dynamic range. I used to use line-out in Forte since it was too loud even at lowest setting without volume controller. Zx line out volume levels are more comparable to Forte’s headphone out than line out. First thing I did was to disable all SBX and stuff liek that. Windows audio panel is set to Stereo mode with full-range speakers ticked.
   
  By the way, the headphone amp in Zx and Z is Maxim MAX97220A so I do not know if that’s bottlenecking the quality. Someone with really hood ADC should do test but for now, I stick with line-out since it doesn't seem to have any issues driving my headphones. Now that I've done a bit longer comparison it does definitely feel like line-out is better when it comes to detail, sounds awesome. Forte line out was a bit sloppy sounding (for the lack of better word; especially for bass) and Zx definitely has better micro detail and more natural sound. If you have sensitive low inpedance headphones, I'd definitely use line-out.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Quote: 





anarion said:


> I just switched from Forte to Zx. It definitely does sound different and in my opinion the ACM is a must or the volume output is just way too high. I'm using Sennheiser HD 595. I've also wondered whether or not it would be better to just use the lien out instead, I've tried to do testing between headphone out and line out but to be honest, I’m not sure if I can really tell the difference (there doesn't even seem to be volume difference), though line-out does seem to sound a bit cleaner and have higher dynamic range. I used to use line-out in Forte since it was too loud even at lowest setting without volume controller. Zx line out volume levels are more comparable to Forte’s headphone out than line out. First thing I did was to disable all SBX and stuff liek that. Windows audio panel is set to Stereo mode with full-range speakers ticked.
> 
> By the way, the headphone amp in Zx and Z is Maxim MAX97220A so I do not know if that’s bottlenecking the quality. Someone with really hood ADC should do test but for now, I stick with line-out since it doesn't seem to have any issues driving my headphones. Now that I've done a bit longer comparison it does definitely feel like line-out is better when it comes to detail, sounds awesome. Forte line out was a bit sloppy sounding (for the lack of better word; especially for bass) and Zx definitely has better micro detail and more natural sound. If you have sensitive low inpedance headphones, I'd definitely use line-out.


 
  The maxim spec sheet says it operates at  112db SNR so when the sound leaves the Cirrus DAC(116db SNR) and goes to the headamp, I guess it gets a noisier.  Maybe this would account for the quality difference perhaps?  I know it has to travel through the buffer stages too and i guess it could get noisier along there as well?  My understanding of opamps and headamps isnt really high so im not sure.
   
  I honestly dont mind the difference in quality right now since the minute the ZXR is released im selling my Z and jumping on that.  The Z was just a temporary solution to my annoyances with the essence STX.  Last minute buy really.


----------



## Evshrug

What annoyed you about Asus' STX?


----------



## Anarion

Quote: 





djinferno806 said:


> The maxim spec sheet says it operates at  112db SNR so when the sound leaves the Cirrus DAC(116db SNR) and goes to the headamp, I guess it gets a noisier.  Maybe this would account for the quality difference perhaps?  I know it has to travel through the buffer stages too and i guess it could get noisier along there as well?  My understanding of opamps and headamps isnt really high so im not sure.
> 
> I honestly dont mind the difference in quality right now since the minute the ZXR is released im selling my Z and jumping on that.  The Z was just a temporary solution to my annoyances with the essence STX.  Last minute buy really.


 
  Cirrus DAC is actually rated 120dB SNR in their specs, 116dB is creative's real world value. But as far as I know, headphone amp chip definitely does not improve the signal since it will boost noise too.
   
  This probably explaisn the difference:
  http://www.abload.de/img/headvddsa.png


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> What annoyed you about Asus' STX?


 
  The disgusting out of date drivers to be honest and lack of support from ASUS.  Alot of games had sound issues and such.  It seemed dolby headphone sometimes would cause artifacts in the game sounds.  I confirmed this by turning it off and on.  The sound panel is so clunky and rediculous and the drivers had really high DPC latency so sound would pop a lot.  
   
  A lot of problems were alleviated by installing 3rd party "unified" drivers but not all of them were gone. 
   
  Music was fantastic though and thats where it would shine.  Really prestine sound quality from the DAC and headamp.  But I game a lot too and couldnt justify the STX just for music.
   
  In the end I bought the Z and all the problems were solved, in fact their HRTF seems much cleaner and higher quality than dolby headphone.  The ZXR was my goal but ill suck up slight loss in audio quality until it comes out.


----------



## Evshrug

Hmm, that's pretty cool you like the HRTF of SBX Pro Studio better than Dolby headphone, DJinferno. I already like THX TruStudio Pro better than DH because it seems more refined and the HRTF seems to place imaging cues more accurately for my ears. I really hope to play Borderlands 2 sometime with OpenAL enabled. I only have the Recon3D USB though, because I wanted one thing to work between all my devices (Xbox, Windows, Mac). I'll probably end up getting an internal sound card once my PC game library starts to fill out 

Is it hard to enable 3D surround in games? Was the Xonar card able to simulate full 3D surround using DH (height as well as front/back)? How do you like the beamforming mic? Thanks for sharing your experience!


----------



## Anarion

I'm pretty sure you don't have to enable SBX in order to get HRTF in OpenAL games, based on quick Mirror's Edge test. Also it works fine in stereo mode.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Enabling surround is easy enough in the control panel. Pretty similar to the thx trustudio panel.

Dolby headphone never had height positional cues. The Asus drivers never worked properly in openal anyways

The sound blaster z works pretty well with eax and openal. I haven't had any issues in older games at all. 

Not sure if openal enables hrtf by default or not. I'm going to test it in penumbra and stalker in a bit.


----------



## NamelessPFG

OpenAL by itself does not provide HRTF mixing, but it does provide the 3D positional coordinates to make a truly effective HRTF mix, if the OpenAL device used chooses to mix the sounds in that fashion.
   
  That's why you have CMSS-3D Headphone, THX TruStudio Surround, and SBX Pro Surround (assuming SBX isn't rebranded THX, anyway) in the first place, along with various HRTF mixing settings in software OpenAL implementations like Rapture3D, OpenAL Soft, and AeonWave.
   
  Still, there's a good possibility that even with such features off, Creative devices tend to fare better with OpenAL games because they have native OpenAL support, either in hardware (Audigy, X-Fi) or software (all Sound Core3D cards and USB devices).


----------



## Kel Ghu

djinferno806 said:


> Music was fantastic though and thats where it would shine. Really prestine sound quality from theBut I game a lot too and couldnt justify the STX just for music.




How's music quality of the Z compared to the STX?


----------



## DJINFERNO806

kel ghu said:


> How's music quality of the Z compared to the STX?




Its definitely not as rich or "full" I guess you could say. A bit muddier even. It is still really good but a slight degrade from the STX. 
 I'm sure the difference in the burr brown dac and TI headamp made up for that. 

I am by no means a hardcore audiophile so to me its still acceptable.


And yes the positional cues from openal games are tons better and clearer. Penumbra is now even scarier and Stalker is more immersive(mainly due to EAX as well)


----------



## Evshrug

I must admit, I played with the Recon3D settings once, found what settings I liked best with Starcraft II, and then... Only played StarCraft II and Xbox games with it (so far). I want to get a great game for PC to really give my system a run for it's money (So far I've been quite happy with a Sandy Bridge Core i3 and a NVIDIA GTS 250, runs the Crysis demo on high settings and looks amazing compared to Xbox). But I haven't much experience PC gaming overall (yet), and conversations with Roller & Nameless have led me to believe that enabling full surround capabilities is often an involved process that may even include editing .ini files... is that coding work? Bleh!

Here's a n00b question for ya, though it would be nice to know for sure: can headphone surround still be enabled when using RCA out? My fav headphone amp is RCA-in, I've been using a 3.5mm to RCA cable with my Recon3D USB but of course I would prefer to utilize a line-out connection with a possible future card. I may like to see 2nd hand Z or Zx soundcard prices once the ZxR comes out...


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> I must admit, I played with the Recon3D settings once, found what settings I liked best with Starcraft II, and then... Only played StarCraft II and Xbox games with it (so far). I want to get a great game for PC to really give my system a run for it's money (So far I've been quite happy with a Sandy Bridge Core i3 and a NVIDIA GTS 250, runs the Crysis demo on high settings and looks amazing compared to Xbox). But I haven't much experience PC gaming overall (yet), and conversations with Roller & Nameless have led me to believe that enabling full surround capabilities is often an involved process that may even include editing .ini files... is that coding work? Bleh!
> 
> Here's a n00b question for ya, though it would be nice to know for sure: can headphone surround still be enabled when using RCA out? My fav headphone amp is RCA-in, I've been using a 3.5mm to RCA cable with my Recon3D USB but of course I would prefer to utilize a line-out connection with a possible future card. I may like to see 2nd hand Z or Zx soundcard prices once the ZxR comes out...


 
   
  Editing .INI files is hardly coding. They're pretty much self-documented! It's just like flipping a switch.
   
  Reading through source code in any programming language, though? Bleh...makes my brain hurt.
   
  I don't know about the Z-series cards, but the X-Fi Titanium HD definitely does CMSS-3D Headphone through RCA-out, so I'd expect no less from the follow-up cards.


----------



## Anarion

Quote: 





djinferno806 said:


> Its definitely not as rich or "full" I guess you could say. A bit muddier even. It is still really good but a slight degrade from the STX.
> I'm sure the difference in the burr brown dac and TI headamp made up for that.
> 
> I am by no means a hardcore audiophile so to me its still acceptable.
> ...


 
  If you have SBX on and windows audio control panel set to 5.1 everything will sound like crap. Headphones default to 5.1. I had to manually select stereo speaker setup. I'm currently using the line-out with all crap disabled in stereo mode and the sound is really sharp. Out of the box settings are really crap for music (or pretty much everyhting to be honest).
   
  Zx does produce more detail than Forte but I think Forte had a bit wider stereo image. I'm not sure which is more true to the intended sound.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

evshrug said:


> I must admit, I played with the Recon3D settings once, found what settings I liked best with Starcraft II, and then... Only played StarCraft II and Xbox games with it (so far). I want to get a great game for PC to really give my system a run for it's money (So far I've been quite happy with a Sandy Bridge Core i3 and a NVIDIA GTS 250, runs the Crysis demo on high settings and looks amazing compared to Xbox). But I haven't much experience PC gaming overall (yet), and conversations with Roller & Nameless have led me to believe that enabling full surround capabilities is often an involved process that may even include editing .ini files... is that coding work? Bleh!
> 
> Here's a n00b question for ya, though it would be nice to know for sure: can headphone surround still be enabled when using RCA out? My fav headphone amp is RCA-in, I've been using a 3.5mm to RCA cable with my Recon3D USB but of course I would prefer to utilize a line-out connection with a possible future card. I may like to see 2nd hand Z or Zx soundcard prices once the ZxR comes out...




I've only ever had to edit 2 games' ini files ever in my life to enable surround and that's because openal and the stx didn't like each other. And these are older games. Every other game uses surround as long as the windows mixer setting is properly setup for 5.1/7.1 


With my new Z openal works beautifully and enables surround no problem. 

*Anarion*, I turn sbx off for music because surround makes it sound weird. Unfortunately I can't use line out with my pc350 since they are higher impedence and it doesn't power the cans fully. I need the amp. The solution will be to get the zxr.


----------



## Anarion

There's one thing that I don't quite like: sound stage. It sound rather in your head for some reason, almost monoish. Even Realtek ALC1200 has wider sound which is really weird and the difference to Forte is large. Hmm... Also the volume levels are insane.
   
  EDIT:
  I think I found the reason why. It seems to be that the speaker setup thingy was causing issues (speaker position setting to be precise). Reinstalled the driver without it. So if you use line-out for headphones, watch out... Now it sounds like it should. No wonder why my ears got tired, it was messed up. Cleaned registy too so that there shouldn't be any pre-reinstall settings left. It may have made difference to headphone out too.
   
  Oh I'd love to get simple option to disable every freakking thing and jsut get 100% pure audio without any "fixes" or adjustments.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Pure audio would be pretty easy on an X-Fi card. Audio Creation Mode, bit-matched playback, ASIO plugins...
   
  Unfortunately, it seems like the Sound Core3D cards dropped ASIO support entirely.


----------



## Anarion

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> Pure audio would be pretty easy on an X-Fi card. Audio Creation Mode, bit-matched playback, ASIO plugins...
> 
> Unfortunately, it seems like the Sound Core3D cards dropped ASIO support entirely.


 
  There's always WASAPI. Though I do miss the multi client ASIO support. Driver could use hifi mode. Who knows, maybe they improve drivers - ZxR would definitely benefit from something like that since I rather doubt that the target audience of that card keeps SBX on while listening music...


----------



## Evshrug

Oh, in the Newegg video where they interviewed Creative about the first two Z-series cards, I specifically remember them mentioning ASIO support was important to them and either it was supported or they were adding support. The really encouraging part is that Creative is still active with these cards, they're still working on them and pushing them. Egads, they have some incomplete marketing efforts though.


----------



## Anarion

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Oh, in the Newegg video where they interviewed Creative about the first two Z-series cards, I specifically remember them mentioning ASIO support was important to them and either it was supported or they were adding support. The really encouraging part is that Creative is still active with these cards, they're still working on them and pushing them. Egads, they have some incomplete marketing efforts though.


 
  I've watched that too. He mentioned ASIO support when he talked about ZxR. Maybe the current delays are software related. But if ZxR gets ASIO support, I don't see why ZxR wouldn't get it. Proper multi-client ASIO support would make using Cubase a bit more flexible, I could find use for it.
   
  Also talking about OpenAL and Alchemy... I wish that they would do some changes. For example if you use Alchemy in Oblivion, weapon sound will sound messed up (like hit sounds are coming inside your head). X-Fi had CMSS-3D setting that two different settings that could be either on, off or auto. I can't remember exactly what they were called but if one forced both on, you ended up with something that sounded really similar to Host OpenAL. It doesn't know when to enable certain things and thus end up with messed up sound (and there's no setting for that). Same goes to voices in Mass Effect 1 so I just stick with Generic Software. Mirror's Edge sound fine though (it really is game dependant).


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Quote: 





anarion said:


> I've watched that too. He mentioned ASIO support when he talked about ZxR. Maybe the current delays are software related. But if ZxR gets ASIO support, I don't see why ZxR wouldn't get it. Proper multi-client ASIO support would make using Cubase a bit more flexible, I could find use for it.
> 
> Also talking about OpenAL and Alchemy... I wish that they would do some changes. For example if you use Alchemy in Oblivion, weapon sound will sound messed up (like hit sounds are coming inside your head). X-Fi had CMSS-3D setting that two different settings that could be either on, off or auto. I can't remember exactly what they were called but if one forced both on, you ended up with something that sounded really similar to Host OpenAL. It doesn't know when to enable certain things and thus end up with messed up sound (and there's no setting for that). Same goes to voices in Mass Effect 1 so I just stick with Generic Software. Mirror's Edge sound fine though (it really is game dependant).


 
  I guess the directsound emulation has its limits most likely.  Its too bad because its a rather nice card really.  Its not a deal breaker but would be nice to have direct sound again. Thats more Microsofts fault anyway removing that api.  
   
  Honestly i dont mind if it never gets ASIO because wasapi does the same thing really and doesnt need specific drivers written by creative.  
   
  For example the wasapi output mode for XBMC is awesome and i would not use anything else ever again.  Bypassing the windows mixer is a treat for sure.


----------



## xeizo

I just barely inserted my Soundblaster Z in the box so I can't really say how it compares, but at least it works and sounds reasonably good. And gives a nice red glow inside the box 
   
  For now I'm running Foobar2000 1.2.2 under Windows 8 Pro x64, I've installed the latest driver from Creatives supportsite(dated 20121224), and nothing from the disc. I opted for choosing what components to install, and unchecked the speaker configuration component as it is said to mess upp any "HiFi" ambitions of the card from others experiences.
   
  I disabled ALL sound enhancements in the driver control panel, and choosed "direct sound". That leaves only two options for resolution in the Windows 8 control panel, 16/192 or 24/192. I opted for 24/192. So, I had to use the resampling plugin in Foobar2000 to get any sound at all with WASAPI and "Creative direct sound". That means I'm running resampling at 192000(put in manually) in Ultra Mode, and WASAPI(event) Speakers Soundblaster Z @ 24 bit. Exclusive mode. I've only listened to FLAC-files so far, and I've only used the line out(Front), connected to my PC soundrig, which consists of a Sony TA-FB940R integrated 2-channel amp and a 2.1 system(Proson SAT31SA.2 speakers and a Proson R-8.2 sub).
   
  The only soundcard I've compared just a wee little to is Xonar DG, which remains in the same box, there's no doubt that Soundblaster Z with the above settings sounds audibly more clear than the Xonar DG - which in turn sounds attractive and nice but a little muddy. Biggest difference is in the extremes of the frequency spectrum, Soundblaster Z have a really punchy bass and a crystal clear treble resolution the rest is harder to define. There is soundstage though, and the sound lifts from the speakers and is not "left inside the box". Someone complained about just that, but I guess he got lost in the Creative control panel. From what I remember, even though I haven't compared directly yet, the Soundblaster Z is no match for the Xonar ST. There's still a slight agressiveness to the sound in Soundblaster Z, which can be good for some music, like aggressive metal, whereas the Xonar ST is really silky smooth almost ethereal in all music over it's line out(I'm not comparing the headphone out sound, and I will not, as my Sony amplifier has a audibly better headphone output than even the Xonar ST -  hence I'm only interested in line out-quality ie DAC-quality).
   
  Anyway, no conclusions yet, but Soundblaster Z sounds good no doubt about it, And apparently it has a slightly different sound than Xonar ST, which also can be a good thing for matching some music. I still have to do more direct comparisons, and also to compare with the M-Audio Audiophile 2496 in the very same box(used for music production, I'm not missing ASIO in the Z as the 2496 has very good ASIO and is already comfortably anchored to my mixer). But Xonar ST seems sure to remain the exclusive choice for critical listening, sitting in it's Linux box, any other conclusion is unlikely from what I can hear but not impossible of course.
   
  It's good to have a high quality source in the Windows gaming box too, I use Windows only for gaming and running a DAW - everything else is done in Linux. The 2496 is a great working tool, but it's DAC-system is getting a little long in the tooth for pure HiFi-listening. And when it comes to gaming, the Soundblaster has a whole array of methods to enhance gaming sound, which no Xonar can match and certainly not the 2496. A nice stepup from the Xonar DG in that particular box. I'll be back when I'm more in the "know"   
   
  edit. Oh, and all the caps are yellow with Nichicon written on them  
   
  edit2. I switched to headphones and one thing is for sure, the really really deep deep bass is excellent with this soundcard. My Philips SHP-8900 cans shouldn't have such impact this deep ~20Hz from previous experience, but they have, I couldn't have guessed because the midbass sounds really tight on the lean side with the Soundblaster Z, not bassy. And the SHP-8900:s normally are slightly boomy. But, now they go deep, with energy while sounding slim. Mids-High are still slightly aggressive, compared to what I remember from Xonar ST, and the sound is on the dry side. But with very high res. It will be interesting to switch back to ST. Now I have tested some other players than Foobar2000, like Spotifys native client and Clementine, by necessity they can't use WASAPI but plays through the Windows 8 mixer and it works very well and sound good while still keeping the 24/192-setting in Windows control panel. The Windows 8 mixer aint that bad. Still using line out of course.


----------



## Evshrug

Cool review, xeizo!


----------



## xeizo

Thanks! As I said, I will be back later when real comparisons have been done but in the meantime I can just confirm that this really is an Audiophile card on a budget when using line out and it's "192kHz direct mode" to an external amplifier. I find myself digging through different types of music from old to new, to great enjoyment, and the SHP-8900:s really shine. The sound belongs to the analytical type of sound and may not be to everyones liking, or match every headphone, though. Personally I like "analytical" sound as long as it doesn't get harsh, I want to hear what everyone is playing/singing and the Soundblaster Z certainly reveals it all


----------



## Evshrug

I also do not mind an analytical bent to the sound, as long as it doesn't sound too bright or treble-hot. Revealing the music & musician's performance is certainly a noble goal! 
Don't be sad, be glad


----------



## xeizo

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> I also do not mind an analytical bent to the sound, as long as it doesn't sound too bright or treble-hot. Revealing the music & musician's performance is certainly a noble goal!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Yeah, typos are funny so I laugh 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (corrected)


----------



## Evshrug

It's good to laugh, but in general I just want to say I appreciate your input and experimentation.


----------



## xeizo

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> It's good to laugh, but in general I just want to say I appreciate your input and experimentation.


 
   
  That feels encouraging, however there's a whole lot left to do, and when I'm done there's still an ocean of cans out there to try


----------



## Evshrug

Isn't it fun to have more to do?
Also:


[VIDEO]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aRwm9jsAq8[/Video]


----------



## xeizo

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Isn't it fun to have more to do?
> Also:


 
   
  Anthem of the head-fiers!


----------



## melterx12

can someone enlighten me on what the difference between "Stereo" and "Stereo Direct" is on this sound card?


----------



## xeizo

melterx12 said:


> can someone enlighten me on what the difference between "Stereo" and "Stereo Direct" is on this sound card?




Stereo is just what it sounds like, 2 channel operation with everything working as usual. "Stereo Direct" feeds the signal directly to the Cirrus Logic DAC with 192kHz sampling frequency, no processing whatsoever done on the Core3D-chip, I guess that mode will not work on the headphone out.


----------



## melterx12

Quote: 





xeizo said:


> Stereo is just what it sounds like, 2 channel operation with everything working as usual. "Stereo Direct" feeds the signal directly to the Cirrus Logic DAC with 192kHz sampling frequency, no processing whatsoever done on the Core3D-chip, I guess that mode will not work on the headphone out.


 
  yeah, but using line out would it be better to use stereo or stereo direct? I assumed that stereo direct bypasses all the sound processing, but in the end is that good or bad?


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Quote: 





melterx12 said:


> yeah, but using line out would it be better to use stereo or stereo direct? I assumed that stereo direct bypasses all the sound processing, but in the end is that good or bad?


 
  For straight forward music playing that is as good as it gets. Pure unmolested sound out of a decent DAC.  For movies and games probably not so much since you might want to use the surround or crystal settings.


----------



## Kel Ghu

Quote: 





xeizo said:


> Stereo is just what it sounds like, 2 channel operation with everything working as usual. "Stereo Direct" feeds the signal directly to the Cirrus Logic DAC with 192kHz sampling frequency, no processing whatsoever done on the Core3D-chip, I guess that mode will not work on the headphone out.


 
   
  It should work with headphone out too. DAC comes after sound processing and shares the same I/V stage for both headphones and line out.


----------



## melterx12

The option is missing in headphone mode though


----------



## xeizo

melterx12 said:


> The option is missing in headphone mode though




Yes, the high-end CS4398-CZZ DAC is exclusive for the line out afaik, headphone out is served by the internal DAC:s of the Core3D-chip, which explains the not as good S/N-ratio for headphones 105dB vs 116dB on line out ... 

The Soundblaster Z is a mixed bag, line out is the same or above as Xonar DX almost Xonar STX-class while headphone out is Xonar DG/DGX-class but with higher gain. The driver seems better than for the Xonars, definetely a better control panel, except missing ASIO.

But, the "192kHz Stereo Direct"-option IS the killer feature for headofiles, bare naked digital metal to a low cost


----------



## Anarion

xeizo said:


> Yes, the high-end CS4398-CZZ DAC is exclusive for the line out afaik, headphone out is served by the internal DAC:s of the Core3D-chip, which explains the not as good S/N-ratio for headphones 105dB vs 116dB on line out ...
> 
> The Soundblaster Z is a mixed bag, line out is the same or above as Xonar DX almost Xonar STX-class while headphone out is Xonar DG/DGX-class but with higher gain. The driver seems better than for the Xonars, definetely a better control panel, except missing ASIO.
> 
> But, the "192kHz Stereo Direct"-option IS the killer feature for headofiles, bare naked digital metal to a low cost


That's not the case. Recon3D has SNR of 102 dB. Zx has >105 dB SNR for headphone out, if I remember correctly they have said that CS4398 handles both outputs. Maxim headphone amp chip probably bottlenecks the quality though. In any case, ZxR has the same limitation so the reason is somewhere else.


----------



## Evshrug

What about the current output, has anybody found out if the Z-series have the current to replace an amp like the FiiO E9? Apparently the STX does, but I'd rather have a Creative card while gaming, and not "needing" an external amp would be a great selling point for me.


----------



## xeizo

evshrug said:


> What about the current output, has anybody found out if the Z-series have the current to replace an amp like the FiiO E9? Apparently the STX does, but I'd rather have a Creative card while gaming, and not "needing" an external amp would be a great selling point for me.




I would guess, again, that a spec sheet on the Maxim amp chip would clarify that ...


----------



## xeizo

anarion said:


> That's not the case. Recon3D has SNR of 102 dB. Zx has >105 dB SNR for headphone out, if I remember correctly they have said that CS4398 handles both outputs. Maxim headphone amp chip probably bottlenecks the quality though. In any case, ZxR has the same limitation so the reason is somewhere else.




Well, I don't know, one interesting aspect to find out about


----------



## Anarion

evshrug said:


> What about the current output, has anybody found out if the Z-series have the current to replace an amp like the FiiO E9? Apparently the STX does, but I'd rather have a Creative card while gaming, and not "needing" an external amp would be a great selling point for me.




I can't really comment on that since my headphones are easy to drive I dont had Fiio E9 but these are the power related specs for the amp chip:


----------



## stv014

Quote: 





xeizo said:


> I would guess, again, that a spec sheet on the Maxim amp chip would clarify that ...


 
   
  The ZxR uses a TPA6120A2, and from the specs it looks like the power supply voltage is +/- 12 V, similarly to the Xonar Essence cards. So, with high impedance headphones, it would probably perform similarly. But the maximum current output and distortion when driving inefficient low impedance headphones depends on the implementation.
   
  Quote: 





xeizo said:


> I would guess, again, that a spec sheet on the Maxim amp chip would clarify that ...


 
   
http://datasheets.maximintegrated.com/en/ds/MAX97220A-MAX97220E.pdf


----------



## Evshrug

Anarion,
Thanks for that info, I think I could calculate current from that info. The problem is, I've spent the past hour since you posted that making my head spin, reading Wikipedia and info across the web to determine what, exactly, effect power has on audio reproduction. And I don't think I can make any solid conclusions, except that headphones typically have impedance vary as they produce different frequencies, so that while double-digit mW may be enough to generally power HE-400 headphones (for example) to listening volume, certain frequencies require more power.

For comparison, FiiO lists it's E09k as having Output Power > 900 mW@32Ω

But if it's loud enough, does it matter? Hantamanmdsknljfnnmsmdmsdnnnm....


----------



## Anarion

evshrug said:


> Anarion,
> Thanks for that info, I think I could calculate current from that info. The problem is, I've spent the past hour since you posted that making my head spin, reading Wikipedia and info across the web to determine what, exactly, effect power has on audio reproduction. And I don't think I can make any solid conclusions, except that headphones typically have impedance vary as they produce different frequencies, so that while double-digit mW may be enough to generally power HE-400 headphones (for example) to listening volume, certain frequencies require more power.
> 
> For comparison, FiiO lists it's E09k as having Output Power > 900 mW@32Ω
> ...


I don't claim to know anything really when it comes to amping headphones but Zx has the loudest line-out I've ever seen on soundcard. It's louder than the headphone amp out on Forte and there doesn't even seem to be much if any volume difference between headphone out and line-out with my headphones. Both would be unusable loud without ACM and line-out seems to power these without any issues what so ever. HD 595 is really sensitive though. Many say that it's not just about the volume but at least with HD 595s they do not sound any better when amped, it's the other way around if anything. It's too loud without amping already so giving more power.... doesn't sound like a good idea. 

But anyway, I'd assume that this shouldn't have too much difficulties powering "average" headphones.

Also a word of warning... Do not use WASAPI when you use stereo direct mode. I almost blow my head to kingdom come while testing that mode...


----------



## genclaymore

Quote: 





anarion said:


> I don't claim to know anything really when it comes to amping headphones but Zx has the loudest line-out I've ever seen on soundcard. It's louder than the headphone amp out on Forte and there doesn't even seem to be much if any volume difference between headphone out and line-out with my headphones. Both would be unusable loud without ACM and line-out seems to power these without any issues what so ever. HD 595 is really sensitive though. Many say that it's not just about the volume but at least with HD 595s they do not sound any better when amped, it's the other way around if anything. It's too loud without amping already so giving more power.... doesn't sound like a good idea.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 You prolly went flying out your chair when you hit play, only to be pull back down by the headphones. Yea, I did that once too when I had bit match playback enabled when I was plugged directly into a Xonar STX.


----------



## xeizo

Gosh, what a chock  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Glad I'm using an external amp, so I don't have to worry about that WASAPI issue 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  I switched back to Xonar ST in my Linuxbox, they do sound different but really at the same level of resolution, but ST is mabe more analogue and darker sounding and the Z is a little more analytical and with slightly more pronounced treble while not harsh. The ST has a wider soundstage, but the Z is not narrow. I'm still running stock OP on the ST but have 3 brand new 4562:s coming in the mail today, mabe they will push ST to best of both worlds ie a little less dark while overall the same. Both soundcards are very noise-free, I can have extremely high sound levels and it's still totally silent between songs.
   
  I was inspired by the "192kHz Stereo Direct"-mode on the Z so i made some extreme settings in /etc/pulse/daemon.conf:
   
  src-sinq-best-quality
  s24be
  192000
   
  Which should match the "Stereo Direct"-mode in the type of signal fed to the DAC, but the above settings have the disadvantage of doing the resampling/oversampling on the cpu however no big problem on a reasonably fast Quad-core. If one has a cpu one should use it! I had to spec a large bufffer in the above file, for the sound not to stutter while doing other cpu-intensive tasks, and it doesn't. The resulting sound is like I described it above, very good, but so are the Z-sound


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Quote: 





xeizo said:


> Gosh, what a chock
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
   
  Sorry to sound ignorant but you said you were able to adjust the buffer size?
   
  What program or where in windows would I be able to do this?
   
  Thanks in advance.


----------



## xeizo

No, that was in Linux, where you just change numbers in a conf-file. Under Windows it will be harder with Soundblaster Z as it doesn't support ASIO, in ASIO you can normally adjust the buffer with a slider. Of course that will only work in soundprograms that also support ASIO.
   
  But, if you use such programs one possible solution is to try ASIO4ALL which may work with Soundblaster Z and ASIO4ALL certainly has adjustable buffer size.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Oh ok.  That makes more sense since I was sure you couldnt adjust the internal windows mixer buffer size.
   
  I rather use wasapi anyways at least until a proper ASIO driver is realeased by creative which they have promised.  Fubar and XBMC seem to use it pretty well so no complaints here 
   
  Thanks.


----------



## Anarion

genclaymore said:


> You prolly went flying out your chair when you hit play, only to be pull back down by the headphones. Yea, I did that once too when I had bit match playback enabled when I was plugged directly into a Xonar STX.


Pretty much. xD


----------



## xeizo

Still at ST, I had to back off my "Creative Z stereo direct"-emulation under Linux. Eventually there was stutter, still using upsamling though:

src-sinc-best-quality
s24le
96000

and

4 buffer fragments of 25ms each, now the last stutter seems gone. And it still sounds extremely good, but so does the ST at default 44.1kHz too. Hard to say if anything really is better or even different. Linux upsampling is very resource hungry, it's clearly more efficient in Windows. The research goes on ...

edit. changed again, have to find optimal settings when comparing with The Z:

speex-float-10
s24ne
96000
8
20

Well, well :rolleyes:

edit2. Now I'm through with the settings for the ST to start the competition with the Z, the upsampling thing WAS a bad idea even if it works. After some serious listening I can confirm that there's no doubt ST sounds best WITHOUT upsampling. As was to expected from the start, but I was woed by Creatives "Stereo Direct"-setting. It may work with the Soundblaster Z and it's own drivers, depending on how the card is made, but it is futile with the ST. SO, final settings in Linux:

speex-float-10
s24ne
44100
8
20

Oh, and of course the cpu-load from sampling now is totally gone, 0% cpu-utilization for pulseaudio 

edit3. I bypassed pulseaudio completely:



> In most music players in the preferences
> you can change the default sink from Pulseaudio to Alsa.
> and to change the output device to hw:2,0.
> I use the wonderful, nostalgic, Clementine
> and there the two changes are made in Tools/Preferences/Playback.




NOW the ST can take on the Z


----------



## BetaWolf

Sorry if posted already, but Newegg preorders are up for ZxR.
  http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829102050


----------



## turokrocks

Quote: 





betawolf said:


> Sorry if posted already, but Newegg preorders are up for ZxR.
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829102050


 
  Thanks, please keep us posted for any updates and availability from other sellers....
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.


----------



## Kel Ghu

Newegg even released a video interview with Ryan from Creative. The guy got confused with all the technical components. It's quite funny listening to him not knowing what he was talking about: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzrvRkjaDNM&list=PLfxaMTbBYP5nMm7L-ZVZ6n3O-Y5ZHU7pE&feature=player_detailpage#t=787s


----------



## Kel Ghu

Here in Switzerland, there's a site that says 5-10 days:
  http://www.powerch.com/Others.1/Creative+Labs.727/70SB151000001/CREATIVE+Sound+Blaster+ZxR+PCI-Express+Sound+Card.844547.html
   
  Hope this is true...


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Quote: 





kel ghu said:


> Newegg even released a video interview with Ryan from Creative. The guy got confused with all the technical components. It's quite funny listening to him not knowing what he was talking about: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzrvRkjaDNM&list=PLfxaMTbBYP5nMm7L-ZVZ6n3O-Y5ZHU7pE&feature=player_detailpage#t=787s


 
  That was just embarrassing.  How can creative send this guy when he doesnt even know the difference between DACs and OPAMPs.


----------



## genclaymore

Yea all that really does is make creative look even worst. They could at least sent someone that had experience to do PR work for them.
   
   
  Quote: 





djinferno806 said:


> Oh ok.  That makes more sense since I was sure you couldnt adjust the internal windows mixer buffer size.
> 
> I rather use wasapi anyways at least until a proper ASIO driver is realeased by creative which they have promised.  Fubar and XBMC seem to use it pretty well so no complaints here
> 
> Thanks.


 
  You could use Asio4all unless that what you meant when you said you rather use wasapi, since asio4all is just wasapi with some kind of wrapper.


----------



## BetaWolf

Well, the typical Newegg shopper knows even less than that guy, so I doubt it'll matter that much.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

The ZXR is now in stock and available for sale from the creative website store.
   
  http://us.store.creative.com/Creative-Sound-Blaster-ZxR-PCIe-Sound/M/B00AQ5PK6I.htm


----------



## Anarion

By the way, if someone gets his hands on ZxR, could you upload the driver .iso somewhere?


----------



## Evshrug

djinferno806 said:


> That was just embarrassing.  How can creative send this guy when he doesnt even know the difference between DACs and OPAMPs.




Maybe I'm just sympathetic because this past Monday I was desperate for work, and during my Starbucks interview I was asked to share about myself... and I started babbling about my parents. Last time I have coffee anywhere near an interview. FYI I had an awesome interview today, if all goes well I'll know by Monday if I'll be making more money with competitive benefits than I would've at Starbucks anyway. Creative seems to be in a marketing rut right now, but I hope they get better.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

evshrug said:


> Maybe I'm just sympathetic because this past Monday I was desperate for work, and during my Starbucks interview I was asked to share about myself... and I started babbling about my parents. Last time I have coffee anywhere near an interview. FYI I had an awesome interview today, if all goes well I'll know by Monday if I'll be making more money with competitive benefits than I would've at Starbucks anyway. Creative seems to be in a marketing rut right now, but I hope they get better.




Lol I know people get flustered and make mistakes but when its your job to know these tthings and do your homework . There really shouldn't be an excuse. Hopefully he learns from his mistakes and gets better. Seems creative has learned from their driver mistakes at least. The z drivers seem stable as hell and easy to use. 

At the end of the day their marketing will be ignored by serious gamers and audiophiles anyways. We already know whats in it.


PS : good luck with the job.


----------



## BababooeyHTJ

Has anyone done a good review on the Sound Blaster Z? How does the sound quality compare to the Xonar DX?
   
  Quote:


namelesspfg said:


> I'd say that has more to do with the sound samples and overall sound design used. The positioning itself, if it's anything like Bad Company 2, is total crap, and the first four Battlefield games never had issues with positional audio. Why? DS3D (1942, Vietnam) and OAL (BF2, 2142). (And positional audio is just one of many complaints with the direction the series has taken after Bad Company 2, even 2142 to an extent...)
> 
> Microsoft dropping DS3D definitely has a lot to do with it. I don't see any good reason for them to have done that. But even then, OpenAL remained unaffected, so why didn't game developers keep using that? It's quite baffling to me, and probably lies in all the politics surrounding PC game audio implementations that I don't particularly care for.
> 
> Software audio may keep getting better, but as it stands, I'm still waiting for Microsoft, Firelight, and everyone else to just catch up to OpenAL + Rapture3D level, let alone surpass it. It probably won't happen unless the most unexpected thing happens and ambisonic audio formats become mainstream.


 

This is why Bohemia interactive claims that they dropped Open Al for future games like Arma 3.
   
  Blame Creative and their awful support.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Quote: 





bababooeyhtj said:


> Has anyone done a good review on the Sound Blaster Z? How does the sound quality compare to the Xonar DX?
> 
> This is why Bohemia interactive claims that they dropped Open Al for future games like Arma 3.
> 
> Blame Creative and their awful support.


 
  One of the members(djriful) over at overclock.net came from a xonar dx.  He has this to say:
   
*"Coming from an Asus Xonar DX, sound coming from the headphones are super clean and there are no more muffle sound. DX isn't bad but the software driver is outdated even a third party support (Uni-Xonar). The equalizer and option sounds are now simply terrible compare to SBX Pro Studio.*
  
 *What I am saying, I can get the exact sound setting I wanted in SBX Pro than Xonar DX driver. It is way less fatigue from now. Xonar DX setting sound are weird to me from the beginning, it is almost I never understand how is this sound good with these stupid preset."                                                                         *
  
  
  
  
 I came from an Essence STX and to say the least, it sounds pretty good still over a set of headphones.  Even better when using line out.  If you just play games then you will notice night and day difference from your DX for sure.*    *SBX Prostudio > Dolby Headphones by a longshot.  Especially with positioning.


----------



## BababooeyHTJ

Thats odd, I never noticed any muffle on the DX. In fact I noticed very little difference between the DX and STX with my HD598.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





bababooeyhtj said:


> This is why Bohemia interactive claims that they dropped Open Al for future games like Arma 3.
> 
> Blame Creative and their awful support.


 
   
  Yeah, I remember that thread. It's presumably also why Frictional Games decided to only officially support the "Generic Software" OpenAL devices for Amnesia: The Dark Descent, even though it sounds like crap compared to a native OpenAL implementation or Rapture3D.
   
  Someone really just needs to pry OpenAL, EAX, A3D, and all that other stuff out of Creative's iron grasp and use it all to create their own gaming audio middleware with a competent support team, something that can dethrone FMOD, while restoring 3D audio to older games, DirectSound3D and A3D titles included. I'd definitely pay up for software that can do that.


----------



## xeizo

bababooeyhtj said:


> Thats odd, I never noticed any muffle on the DX. In fact I noticed very little difference between the DX and STX with my HD598.




I guess he means when using the various effects of the driver/card, both Asus drivers and controlpanel are rather bad so I don't find his obeservation strange at all.

When it comes to pure stereo sound, without any effects, so is the DX almost as good as it gets so anyone stating Z/Zx being "much better" exaggerates. It may be slightly better though, because of the drivers. Personally I use DX and ST in Linux and only for stereo so I'm not affected by the Asus driver-issue. But I'm quite happy to have the Z and not a Asus in my primary Windows-box


----------



## Evshrug

Thanks DJINFERNO, I thought I'd have heard back today, but I'm not worried yet. Hope to find out very soon though.
Maybe some will ignore marketing, but marketing isn't all fluff and doesn't have to be a lie, good marketing can really help make clear just what a product can offer. It can also work with "public relations" and reach out to game developers, propagating more games that take advantage of a product's features. The newegg interview and Creative's current YouTube videos are not quality marketing.

BababooeyHTJ,
Creative's support could definitely make a difference, also see above, but isn't OpenAL an open-source library not owned by Creative?


----------



## DJINFERNO806

evshrug said:


> Thanks DJINFERNO, I thought I'd have heard back today, but I'm not worried yet. Hope to find out very soon though.
> Maybe some will ignore marketing, but marketing isn't all fluff and doesn't have to be a lie, good marketing can really help make clear just what a product can offer. It can also work with "public relations" and reach out to game developers, propagating more games that take advantage of a product's features. The newegg interview and Creative's current YouTube videos are not quality marketing.
> 
> BababooeyHTJ,
> Creative's support could definitely make a difference, also see above, but isn't OpenAL an open-source library not owned by Creative?




Not anymore, openal is now proprietary and maintained by creative. I think the older versions are still open though.


----------



## turokrocks

[size=1.4em] Creative Sound Blaster Z review[/size]


----------



## Evshrug

Thanks for the Infos 
(Still haven't heard back about the promised 2nd interview over the phone yet)


----------



## Kel Ghu

Creative is recalling ZxR cards?: http://forums.creative.com/showthread.php?t=699322


----------



## BetaWolf

Found the HardOCP thread. Ignore the idiot troll in there.
  http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1744947
   
  Odd for Creative to be this vigorous on QA, don't you think? Either way, if this is true, I'm going to be waiting until later in March for my upgrade.


----------



## Evshrug

Maybe it's so they can add ASIO support?

Trolls... They be ev'rywhaare h34r:

Edit: wow, just read that derailing garbage. Nice that someone slinging personal attacks and swear words about (and getting indignant about someone calling him tone deaf in return... Don't dish if you can't take?) has managed to attract moderator attention and lock an early source of info. In a way, the troll wins. Glad head-Fi is usually less abrasive.

Back on topic... Does anybody know if the Z-series cards can be used on a Mac? I ask, because my Recon3D USB had native drivers and a software suite for OS X.


----------



## genclaymore

Quote: 





betawolf said:


> Found the HardOCP thread. Ignore the idiot troll in there.
> http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1744947
> 
> Odd for Creative to be this vigorous on QA, don't you think? Either way, if this is true, I'm going to be waiting until later in March for my upgrade.


 

 Eh I see dragon rage still going at it, he was the sole reason why I left that forum 8 years ago.When he trolled me over op-amps.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

genclaymore said:


> Eh I see dragon rage still going at it, he was the sole reason why I left that forum 8 years ago.When he trolled me over op-amps.




Well according to him we all belong here since only idiots can hear difference between on board and add on sound.


----------



## BetaWolf

Also, here's the new thread. No new info.
  http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1745222


----------



## Kel Ghu

ZxR available in Europe: http://en.store.creative.com/sound-blaster/sound-blaster-zxr/1-21383.aspx?eventcategory=MHL&eventaction=homepage&eventlabel=SoundBlasterZxR
   
  Ordered mine


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

Exactly what's the difference between the Z and Zx. Are they using same DAC but the amping and the volume control is the difference? If so then I'd much rather get Z.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

rpgwizard said:


> Exactly what's the difference between the Z and Zx. Are they using same DAC but the amping and the volume control is the difference? If so then I'd much rather get Z.




There is NO difference. Same card. Just the zx has the addition of the ACM. 

There are some reports that the zx's have nichicon gold capacitors. However some of the newer z's have them as well. 

Sound quality wise no difference 100% guaranteed.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Double post


----------



## Evshrug

djinferno806 said:


> Well according to him we all belong here since only idiots can hear difference between on board and add on sound.




Maybe he's related to the pric0 guy that just showed up in Nameless' PC gaming guide WITH CAPS LOCK ON SOMETIMES SORRY and ****** language saying virtual surround is impossible? Anyway, dragon rage clearly has issues and paranoia about the intents of others, I don't think anyone would take him seriously. Trolls show up from time to time, but rarely do they sound, err, sound of mind and trustworthy, so I just ignore them, responding only if it seems others are being shepherded on the bandwagon.


----------



## nirvanalive

Just to share the ZxR is now available on Creative Singapore web and I'm expecting delivery very soon! Really hope it doesn't disappoint... Cheers!


----------



## Kel Ghu

ZxR in Europe went out of stock in a day.


----------



## Evshrug

Cheers nirvanalive!

Wow Kel Ghu, that was fast! It's still clear the could benefit from improved marketing though


----------



## Kenion

Quote: 





nirvanalive said:


> Just to share the ZxR is now available on Creative Singapore web and I'm expecting delivery very soon! Really hope it doesn't disappoint... Cheers!


 

 Glad to hear!
  Don't forget to share us your impressions after you spend some time with the card


----------



## Kel Ghu

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Wow Kel Ghu, that was fast! It's still clear the could benefit from improved marketing though


 
   
  They didn't even send us a notification email, for those of us who subscribed to it.


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

Well I hope to be able to buy the SoundBlaster Z soon in europe. It's my last hope to finally find something that I'm totally pleased with coming from onboard Realtek.
   
  - With Titanium HD I just don't like the driver interface.
  - With ASUS I don't like the very scaled down interface and very cheap not so great working EQ and the cards tend to have a slight tilt towards highs, very analytical & "digital" sound to it. "The random high volume output issue" also scares me a whole lot
  - I want a soundcard instead of USB DAC due to the added options such as EQ and 5.1 speaker support (I don't use my 5.1 speakers barely anymore but well it's good to have support at least and then I also use 5.1 speakermode with headphones for improved imaging, games & music)
   
  Hopefully this new Z-series will make me satisfied, I feel the ZxR is a little too expensive even if it has a better DAC which is attractive (I don't need the ACM module) but then again I read a lot of average joes noticing SQ improvement coming from their older X-Fi card or ASUS cards to the Z card already, so I'm thinking it should at least be a very big step-up from onboard.


----------



## Hugh Jundys

I have had the ZXR for a couple of days now.  Unfortunately it doesn't help you guys too much because I am in no way qualified to be talking about audio on this forum.  I am still running to the dictionary to figure out what you guys are talking about in some of the reviews.  The special language audio geeks use has not become mine yet. This will become obvious as I tell what little I can about this sound card
   
  I came from a Titanium non HD.  I almost always listen through ATH A-700 headphones and rarely through Logitech x620 speakers.  Not very impressive gear.  The only external amp I have is this tiny Fiio E5.  Most of the time I didn't use it but the last month or two I have.
   
  One of the differences I saw when comparing my Titanium to the ZXR was the capacitors.  The ZXR has Fine Gold caps.  They are physically much larger than the caps on the Titanium.  It seemed to me the smallest cap on the ZXR was larger than the biggest on the Titanium.  
   
  It was easy to install.  I had zero problems with the software.
   
  The ACM seems a little heavier than a half can of soda.  The knob moves smoothly.  It turns lightly, I wish it was a little heavier.  I have a sidewinder x6 keyboard the volume knobs feel similar just different size.  The cords coming from the module are stiff, wrapped in cloth, like the Audio Tech headphones, heavy, and in my opinion 3' too short.  It has a tacky bottom that keeps it in place the weight of the cords do not move the module.  I love having a volume knob it is why I am still using the sidewinder x6 keyboard.  The module is nice looking, I do like the color of the one that comes with the ZX better, I like red.
   
  The sound is improved for me through my headphones and through my speakers.  I do not have a sophisticated enough ear to tell you if that is because the parts in this card are superior to the parts in my old one or if it is simply because now I am using a better headphone amp, the card supplied Texas Instruments TPA6120.  In the SBX Pro Studio menu I have not decided what settings I like best.  I really like the sound with nothing turned on.  I also like just the bass checked.  I do not like having the Crystalizer on, it makes the music I listen to sound like the treble is up too high.  
   
  I remember when I first went away from onboard sound and sub $20 headphones to the X-fi and the Audio Technicas.  I HEARD THINGS in songs I never heard before.  You know what I'm talking about don't you?  I could hear the pick scrape on the string not just the note.  I heard the wind chimes on the Doobie Brother's "Black Water" as if they were outside my window.  Well, I had just such a moment using this card.  I'm one of those guys that can never figure out the lyrics to songs and end up making up some bizarre words of my own.  The first rock band I ever got into was the Police.  When I first heard the song Don't Stand so Close to Me it was being played on top 40 radio.  It has taken until yesterday for me to realize he says after the book marking line "this girl is half his age"  You don't want to know what I've been singing for the last two decades.
   
  I like to game.  I have and do play everything.  Lately I've been playing some Path of Exile, Skyrim, Shogun 2, and Saints Row 3.  The positional audio is at least as good as it was with my Titanium.  I can't tell if it is better yet but I definitely would have noticed a drop off and there has not been one.  In Shogun 2 the surround sound is improved with this card.  My left and right rear speakers play much louder than they did before.  With the Titanium they were so quite in 5.1 that the setting seemed useless.  No longer useless!  When I was using the old Titanium with Path of Exile I had been experiences some BSOD from time to time when another program played audio.  This problem has not resurfaced with the ZXR.  
   
  I'm glad I got this card.  It has been an improvement in my entertainment experience.  My music sounds better and my gaming still sounds awesome!


----------



## Kenion

Quote: 





hugh jundys said:


> Spoiler: Spoiler%20Box
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Thanks alot for your small but helpful review!
  Glad to hear you are enjoying your new toy 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  Fun to see, that you are playing the same games that I use to play too. 
   
  Cheers,


----------



## xeizo

Creatives new drivers seems to be a huge improvement over their older continuously bashed drivers, especially for those of us running Windows 8, as the driver is written for Windows 8 in the first place. Driver-wise so is Asus at the moment left far behind, their driver has an ugly childish interface and is written for Windows XP from the beginning, and then patched over and over again.

No ASIO is still a disappointment, but hopefully Creative will fix that in an upcoming driver. Anyway, this is consumer grade soundcards and most consumers don't need ASIO. For headophiles there's always WASAPI.

I run my Asus:es in Linux so I don't suffer from crappy drivers, but my Soundblaster Z runs in WIndows 8 and it feels like a perfect fit for that environment. Still sounds very good for a 60$ soundcard, perfectly happy with choosing it for my gaming box


----------



## Kenion

Quote: 





xeizo said:


> Creatives new drivers seems to be a huge improvement over their older continuously bashed drivers, especially for those of us running Windows 8, as the driver is written for Windows 8 in the first place. Driver-wise so is Asus at the moment left far behind, their driver has an ugly childish interface and is written for Windows XP from the beginning, and then patched over and over again.
> 
> No ASIO is still a disappointment, but hopefully Creative will fix that in an upcoming driver. Anyway, this is consumer grade soundcards and most consumers don't need ASIO. For headophiles there's always WASAPI.
> 
> I run my Asus:es in Linux so I don't suffer from crappy drivers, but my Soundblaster Z runs in WIndows 8 and it feels like a perfect fit for that environment. Still sounds very good for a 60$ soundcard, perfectly happy with choosing it for my gaming box


 

 No ASIO support is indeed quite sad, but I'm confident that they will patch it with a future update. They should implement it at least for the ZxR cards, as this is their so called "studio-grade" card.
   
  I agree with the drivers being fully optimized for Windows 8. As a Windows 8 users myself, this is one of the reasons why I would upgrade to a Z series card.


----------



## BababooeyHTJ

I waited for a sale on the ZX and I'm glad that I did. I really find the ACM handy. Its also very nice when you have a headphone with a coiled cable.
   
  I was also surprised to see that it drives a 250 ohm beyer to a decent volume.


----------



## Evshrug

Where are some good deals on any of the Z-series cards? I only saw them at MSRP prices.


----------



## Kel Ghu

I got my ZxR today. I'm pretty happy with it so far. Installation was smooth for both hardware and software. Software is a bit clunky, with redundant options. So far the sound quality is very good, way better than on-board sound. It's clean, transparent and soundstage a bit wider. It's an analytical sound.
   
I only tried listening with my headphones and got mixed results. K701 sounded really thin, distant and very cold overall. Bass was anemic. Even if I got more volume, K701 didn't really sound that much better at all. But my HD650 improved dramatically. Highs are crisp with good separation, mids are clearer and bass really sounds deeper, punchier and tighter. I am soon to use the card with Adam studio monitors (A7x or S1x). But I'll try Audioengine 5+ first tomorrow.


----------



## SoFGR

sooo, what's the verdict on creative software OpenAL ? 
   
  Many users say that  SBX pro studio is far superior to x-fi headphone cmss3d - dolby headphone and THX tru studio, it gives pretty sound positioning  without  messing up the audio clarity (atleast that's what they say  )
   
  But all these guys  probably tested this  "new generation" HRTF on games  with software sound engines  like L4D2  BF3 etc.
   
  I remember when i  played lurk 1.1 ( STALKER SoC realism mod ) on an very expensive setup, the audio chain was like  this :
   
  x-fi titanium -> toslink optical cable -> dac19mk3 -> artisan ultimate silver dream RCA -> C2C headamp -> AKG K601
   
  all i did software wise was switching to game mode, enable  x-fi cmss3d headphone  launch the game and enable EAX. 
   
  I could hear spetznatz shouting and firing through bushes in agropom  military camp, i could shoot back at them like i had some kind of x-ray vision, 360 degrees-like sound positioning including vertical cues thanks to macroFX and elevation filter,   it was really intense , better than  a proper 5.1 speaker setup  IMHO.
   
  So how do these new cards compare in games with hardware openAL support like  Stalker ?  Did they implement some  kind of elevation filter for software accelerated  audio engines ?  I really hate it when i hear a smoker coughing and can't tell if he's above or below my position


----------



## DJINFERNO806

sofgr said:


> sooo, what's the verdict on creative software OpenAL ?
> 
> Many users say that  SBX pro studio is far superior to x-fi headphone cmss3d - dolby headphone and THX tru studio, it gives pretty sound positioning  without  messing up the audio clarity (atleast that's what they say  )
> 
> ...




Openal and eax based games seem to be done well even in software. I have been playing stalker and the positional audio is fantastic and it does seem to retain some elevation as opposed to regular 5.1/7.1 games. 

My Stx didn't do surround in penumbra and so it wasn't very enjoyable audio wise. However the z supports the openal api and gives you fantastic positioning. 

The sbx hrtf is vastly superior to Dolby headphone in terms of sound not being reverbed or lowered in quality. I believe it also is better than cmss3d but that might be personal preference. 

Also if the game doesn't have eax or openal it still does a better job with a 5.1/7.1 signal than Dolby headphone. 

I feel like I "upgraded" coming from my stx which is sad since its a $200 card.

Still want the zxr once canadacomputers has it in stock.


----------



## Fegefeuer

Does anybody have a real good comparison between CMSS-3D and SBX? Especially on confirming SBX not being a THX TSP renaming?


----------



## Kenion

Quote: 





fegefeuer said:


> Does anybody have a real good comparison between CMSS-3D and SBX? Especially on confirming SBX not being a THX TSP renaming?


 

 Would love to see a comparision between the two. Did anyone upgrade from a X-Fi to a Z card and tell us if there is a diffrent in sound between them?


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

I'm very keen on SBX Pro Studio for gaming, people who tried it say it has much less sound impact than CMSS3D. For me CMSS3D was useless due to it impacting the SQ way too much, especially the highs became all grainy (think of 96 kbps mp3 + EQ boost to the highs, that's what CMSS3D sounds like IMO). I also prefer DH over CMSS3D for that reason, the DH has slight added reverb (well nothing noteworthy if using DH-2 mode really) + slight EQ tweak (can be corrected with EQing, it adds slight bass bump and slight treble range decrease, after correcting that it sounds nearly same as stock without DH while with CMSS3D no EQing will fix the SQ hit).
   
  I also hear good words on the cheaper Z card, seems like a good bang-for-buck option SQ wise among soundcards. Gonna get a "Z" card first to see if it will fit my needs, the ZxR seems to have a rather analytical sound to it (bright) and I tend to prefer rather slightly warm than slightly bright sound (think Titanium HD over ASUS D2/DX but ideally something in-between).


----------



## Evshrug

I vastly prefer THX TruStudio Pro over CMSS-3D, and even over the Dolby Headphone samples I've heard across the web. The only Rapture3D sample I head sounded horribly processed. Now, I haven't had DH or CMSS-3D installed in my setup, but when I started using my Recon3D my reaction was "FINALLY! This sounds like a natural way to hear 3D!" I used Silent Cinema on my receiver, which had much finer adjustment controls than the 3 "rooms" of Dolby Headphone, but whenever I reduced the reverb I always felt like I was losing surround directionality... THX just worked. If SBX sounds exactly the same, I'd still be happy  I'd just use the RCA outs with my tube amp... amping problems/dull sound solved.
   
  I haven't figured out how to tie it to video yet, but I'm tempted to just record an audio sample of some video commonly available on the web, JUST so people can sample the difference (since Creative seemingly won't do it, even though it would be for their own good).
   
  Haven't tried the Recon3D with an OpenAL game yet, though I intend to get the GOTY Borderlands 2 for PC when that comes out.


----------



## Kenion

The best video I could find showing THX Tru Studio, Dolby Headphone and CMSS-3D. Unfortunately, no SBX Pro.


----------



## BetaWolf

Quote: 





rpgwizard said:


> I also hear good words on the cheaper Z card, seems like a good bang-for-buck option SQ wise among soundcards. Gonna get a "Z" card first to see if it will fit my needs, the ZxR seems to have a rather analytical sound to it (bright) and I tend to prefer rather slightly warm than slightly bright sound (think Titanium HD over ASUS D2/DX but ideally something in-between).


 
  What do these terms mean in terms of audio? I'm a newbie when it comes to this stuff, so what do warm and bright mean?
   
  Also, will the Z or ZxR give me a good upgrade coming from a Fatal1ty Titanium Professional, on my K702? I read the other guy's post saying that there's not a huge difference on his Q601 going from a Titanium HD to a ZxR.


----------



## Evshrug

I saw that one, more of a distortion test than a surround test, because IIRC he didn't have his preferences set up correctly for surround for the different cards.
   
  Edit: Oh, that's actually a new one. Besides the fact that I generally don't feel BF3 has max positional audio potential, he MAY have set that video up correctly compared to a similar video made earlier.
   
  Edit 2: Watched the vid in full. CMSS-3D does sound best there, though I think the author of the video was too shy of the surround feature on the THX test (turned to 20%!). You turn the surround down... you get less surround... gosh, didn't expect that! Anyway, that niggle aside, one of the better audio comparisons I've seen (wish he'd started with a short stereo segment first, just to reference the viewer, but...).


----------



## Kenion

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> I saw that one, more of a distortion test than a surround test, because IIRC he didn't have his preferences set up correctly for surround for the different cards.
> 
> Edit: Oh, that's actually a new one. Besides the fact that I generally don't feel BF3 has max positional audio potential, he MAY have set that video up correctly compared to a similar video made earlier.


 

 Yea, I've seen his old video. This one should be the fixed audio version.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Those of you with Z-series cards, do me a favor and fire up Battlefield 2 or 2142 (specifically one of those two), then set the sound settings to X-Fi, Ultra High, basically everything maxed out.
   
  Then tell me if the menu doesn't have reverb and other unintended effects applied to the sound as a result of Creative's software OpenAL renderer, and if the game itself has decent audio positioning with SBX Pro Surround.
   
  While I'm still willing to review a Z-series card at some point just to find out if SBX Pro Surround is any different from the lousy THX TruStudio Surround, I'm still skeptical that it has anything on CMSS-3D Headphone in terms of positioning. The only binaural surround mixing technologies that even come close to CMSS-3D Headphone, in my experience, are Rapture3D's headphone HRTF mixing modes (which are only useful with OpenAL titles), Aureal A3D (defunct for over a decade), and Sensaura Virtual Ear (defunct for almost a decade). The latter two probably form the backbone for CMSS-3D Headphone anyway due to Creative buying out both Aureal and Sensaura years ago.


----------



## Evshrug

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> Those of you with Z-series cards, do me a favor and fire up Battlefield 2 or 2142 (specifically one of those two), then set the sound settings to X-Fi, Ultra High, basically everything maxed out.
> 
> Then tell me if the menu doesn't have reverb and other unintended effects applied to the sound as a result of Creative's software OpenAL renderer, and if the game itself has decent audio positioning with SBX Pro Surround.
> 
> While I'm still willing to review a Z-series card at some point just to find out if SBX Pro Surround is any different from the lousy THX TruStudio Surround, I'm still skeptical that it has anything on CMSS-3D Headphone in terms of positioning. The only binaural surround mixing technologies that even come close to CMSS-3D Headphone, in my experience, are Rapture3D's headphone HRTF mixing modes (which are only useful with OpenAL titles), Aureal A3D (defunct for over a decade), and Sensaura Virtual Ear (defunct for almost a decade). The latter two probably form the backbone for CMSS-3D Headphone anyway due to Creative buying out both Aureal and Sensaura years ago.


 
  The only Rapture3D sample I've heard was this one, and it sounds horribly distorted and veiled, though the 3D directional cues are good.


  ​ Edit: I found a "STALKER: Call of Pripyat" vid by the same guy, sounded better (game reminds me of Metro 2033, especially the music during the Bloodsucker sequence), but comments pointed out an "underwater" like sound effect, and I can hear what they mean.​


----------



## Anarion

I personally never liked how CMSS-3D sounded in headphone mode so I always used stereo mode with X-Fi. In stereo mode the sound is much more open and not in your head.

I recorded a sample few days before I got my Zx so that I have something to compare in the future.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GH5DsUJpY8
^^Mirror's Edge, had to use the What U Hear to record it (luckily you can record different source with FRAPS).


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

Quote: 





anarion said:


> I personally never liked how CMSS-3D sounded in headphone mode so I always used stereo mode with X-Fi. In stereo mode the sound is much more open and not in your head.
> 
> I recorded a sample few days before I got my Zx so that I have something to compare in the future.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GH5DsUJpY8
> ^^Mirror's Edge, had to use the What U Hear to record it (luckily you can record different source with FRAPS).


 
   
  Oh yea stereo speaker CMSS3D seems to sound much much better indeed. Very nice.


----------



## Evshrug

anarion said:


> I personally never liked how CMSS-3D sounded in headphone mode so I always used stereo mode with X-Fi. In stereo mode the sound is much more open and not in your head.
> 
> I recorded a sample few days before I got my Zx so that I have something to compare in the future.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GH5DsUJpY8
> ^^Mirror's Edge, had to use the What U Hear to record it (luckily you can record different source with FRAPS).



Hmmm, I really have to go check out FRAPS.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> The only Rapture3D sample I've heard was this one, and it sounds horribly distorted and veiled, though the 3D directional cues are good.
> 
> 
> 
> ​ Edit: I found a "STALKER: Call of Pripyat" vid by the same guy, sounded better (game reminds me of Metro 2033, especially the music during the Bloodsucker sequence), but comments pointed out an "underwater" like sound effect, and I can hear what they mean.​


 
   
  Something does sound a bit off about Rapture3D's Green HRTF quality wise (positioning is spot-on, as it should be), but here's what I want to see: a demonstration video that cycles through ALL of Rapture3D's HRTFs. There's six of them, and the default seems to be the "Amber" one.
   
  Remember that when I discuss binaural HRTF mixing tech, *positioning comes first and foremost* for me, and sound quality, while quite important, still remains secondary since game audio samples are rarely of the highest fidelity to begin with. For me, the priority is being able to shoot someone in the face through a wall just by listening to his footsteps. If there's something that can do it more clearly out there, I'm all for it, but I will not accept compromises in DS3D/OAL positioning and EAX compatibility as a trade-off.
   
  Quote: 





anarion said:


> I personally never liked how CMSS-3D sounded in headphone mode so I always used stereo mode with X-Fi. In stereo mode the sound is much more open and not in your head.
> 
> I recorded a sample few days before I got my Zx so that I have something to compare in the future.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GH5DsUJpY8
> ^^Mirror's Edge, had to use the What U Hear to record it (luckily you can record different source with FRAPS).


 
   
  Sounds alright in that rear cues are readily apparent and there's a slight semblance of height, but I would have liked a comparison with the usual CMSS-3D Headphone configuration in that same video.
   
  I still don't hear anything different at all between 2-speaker and headphone modes in the X-Fi control panel, other than that CMSS-3D Virtual obviously sounded much worse to my ears since it's meant for stereo speakers in front of my head. Might have worked better with a Stax Sigma, AKG K1000, or Sony PFR-V1, one of those "earspeaker" type of sets.
   
  That doesn't explain your video, though...did you mess with the speaker positioning in the THX setup panel to make their placement 90-degrees off from the head or something?
   
  Also note that I never feel like the sound's congested soundstage-wise with CMSS-3D Headphone set the usual way, but that could also be because of my headphones of choice (Stax SR-Lambda) outdoing even the famed Audio-Technica AD700 in sheer soundstage.


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> Something does sound a bit off about Rapture3D's Green HRTF quality wise (positioning is spot-on, as it should be), but here's what I want to see: a demonstration video that cycles through ALL of Rapture3D's HRTFs. There's six of them, and the default seems to be the "Amber" one.


 
   
  TBH, the non Rapture 3D has just as good positioning. UT3 has very good positional audio already when you set speakermode to 5.1 from my experience even with onboard sound and openal isn't even required! I've played this game over 5000hrs and during this time lots of times I've used the sound cues to my advantage. 
   
  I remember I was defending a node in warfare game mode, heard an incoming manta vehicle incoming from our own base-side and shoot an AVRIL-missile before he appeared around the corner so it would instantly kill him when he showed up around the corner. Of course the other player was like "HAX!! Wallhack noob" haha
   
  EDIT: Seems like the 5.1 vs stereo speaker config difference is also audible through that particular video. If you aren't a 5.1 speakermode user, at least give it a try for this video. The "generic software" will have good positional cues then too which can't be said when using stereo. The speaker config I usually use is (same options is obviously present through the control panel and speaker config when right clicking on the audio device):


----------



## Anarion

namelesspfg said:


> Something does sound a bit off about Rapture3D's Green HRTF quality wise (positioning is spot-on, as it should be), but here's what I want to see: a demonstration video that cycles through ALL of Rapture3D's HRTFs. There's six of them, and the default seems to be the "Amber" one.
> 
> Remember that when I discuss binaural HRTF mixing tech, *positioning comes first and foremost* for me, and sound quality, while quite important, still remains secondary since game audio samples are rarely of the highest fidelity to begin with. For me, the priority is being able to shoot someone in the face through a wall just by listening to his footsteps. If there's something that can do it more clearly out there, I'm all for it, but I will not accept compromises in DS3D/OAL positioning and EAX compatibility as a trade-off.
> 
> ...


Probably should have but I've never used that since I didn't like it so I guess that's why it didn't cross my mind... I can do same clips with Zx in stereo mode though: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0qL7BX_XcU&hd=1

All SBX Pro Studio stuff disabled, by the way.


----------



## lilVaratep

Quote: 





anarion said:


> Probably should have but I've never used that since I didn't like it so I guess that's why it didn't cross my mind... I can do same clips with Zx in stereo mode though: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0qL7BX_XcU&hd=1
> 
> All SBX Pro Studio stuff disabled, by the way.


 
  why no surround sound?


----------



## Fegefeuer

Anarion,
   
  can you do Mirror's Edge with CMSS-3D Headphone Macro On/Elevation On and 5.1/7.1 in Windows? 
  If you don't have your X-Fi card anymore. Can you do SBX with 5.1/7.1 in Windows?
   
  Make sure openal has been set correctly in
   
   
   
  Documents\EA Games\Mirror's Edge\TdGame\Config -> TDENGINE.INI
   
   
*[ALAudio.ALAudioDevice]*
_MaxChannels=128_
_UseEffectsProcessing=True_
_TimeBetweenHWUpdates=15_
_MinOggVorbisDurationGame=20_
_MinOggVorbisDurationEditor=4_
_DeviceName=SB X-Fi Audio [0001]_ <-- replace with corresponding device name, check with ALCapsViewer32 and ALCapsViewer64. 
_MinOggVorbisDuration=10_


----------



## Anarion

fegefeuer said:


> Anarion,
> 
> can you do Mirror's Edge with CMSS-3D Headphone Macro On/Elevation On and 5.1/7.1 in Windows?
> If you don't have your X-Fi card anymore. Can you do SBX with 5.1/7.1 in Windows?
> ...



I can't test CMSS-3D any more but when I did, it had macro and elevation set to auto (in which case they are on in Mirror's Edge, host OpenAL seems to use on all the tiem and that causes issues in some cases, like Oblivion).

I can do simulated 5.1 with Zx tomorrow though. And yeah, I do know how to set it up properly. I have been manually doing that since Vista and Audigy 2 ZS. By the way, enabling the SBX Pro Studio thingy is not needed for virtual 5.1 in OpenAL games (in fact, I think it makes it sound worse - that's likely not the case in non-OpenAL games though).


----------



## Fegefeuer

Mirror's Edge  (Open AL)
   
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JS2_SCTFLM&hd=1 TruStudio Pro
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHhwUT4BYMk&hd=1 CMSS-3D
   
  Now we need SBX and DHP


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

Quote: 





fegefeuer said:


> Mirror's Edge  (Open AL)
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JS2_SCTFLM&hd=1 TruStudio Pro
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHhwUT4BYMk&hd=1 CMSS-3D
> ...


 
   
  Unfortunately the CMSS3D has so much better positioning and much larger soundstage there, makes me a bit worried regarding SBX Pro Studio as it would need to be qutie a step-up from TruStudio Pro. CMSS3D seems to sound quite alright as long as you DON'T use "headphone" in creative driver interface.


----------



## Fegefeuer

I recorded this with CMSS-3D Headphone in the interface. We have to find out what SBX really does. THX TSP really sucks in comparison with CMSS-3D Headphone, though we have to consider that this is an Open AL Game, something extremely rare today unfortunately that gives CMSS-3D a rendering advantage (and consider that it still lacks EAX etc.). It reminds everyone what a sorry f....sorry state gaming audio is.
   
  If people want to I can record games that don't give an advantage to anyone (aka pure middleware) and just show which solution does the "simple" virtualization better. Until then we need someone doing "my" ME run with SBX on and the same INI settings. If SBX is a renamed THX then we can forget about getting these new cards.


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

Quote: 





fegefeuer said:


> If people want to I can record games that don't give an advantage to anyone (aka pure middleware) and just show which solution does the "simple" virtualization better. Until then we need someone doing "my" ME run with SBX on and the same INI settings. If SBX is a renamed THX then we can forget about getting these new cards.


 
   
  Ahh yea a simple virtualization comparision on audio rendering would be nice. What's a good candidate for such? What about the source engine (L4D, CS etc)?


----------



## Fegefeuer

Source can use DS3D -> Alchemy Wrapper and we have the advantage for CMSS-3D again.
   
  how about:
   
  Hitman: Absolution
  Ghost Recon Future Soldier
  Dead Space 3
  Crysis 3 (don't have that one)


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

Quote: 





fegefeuer said:


> Source can use DS3D -> Alchemy Wrapper and we have the advantage for CMSS-3D again.
> 
> how about:
> 
> ...


 
   
  Yea those could be cool, maybe dead space has suitable effects. Especially great are games with lots of effects like those in unreal tournament, even pickup has their own buzzing noise etc that is good for positional testing.


----------



## Kenion

Quote: 





rpgwizard said:


> Yea those could be cool, maybe dead space has suitable effects. Especially great are games with lots of effects like those in unreal tournament, even pickup has their own buzzing noise etc that is good for positional testing.


 
   
  I find that Battlefield 3 or Bad Company 2 have a really good channel-mixing and overall immersive sound.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





rpgwizard said:


> TBH, the non Rapture 3D has just as good positioning. UT3 has very good positional audio already when you set speakermode to 5.1 from my experience even with onboard sound and openal isn't even required! I've played this game over 5000hrs and during this time lots of times I've used the sound cues to my advantage.
> 
> I remember I was defending a node in warfare game mode, heard an incoming manta vehicle incoming from our own base-side and shoot an AVRIL-missile before he appeared around the corner so it would instantly kill him when he showed up around the corner. Of course the other player was like "HAX!! Wallhack noob" haha
> 
> EDIT: Seems like the 5.1 vs stereo speaker config difference is also audible through that particular video. If you aren't a 5.1 speakermode user, at least give it a try for this video. The "generic software" will have good positional cues then too which can't be said when using stereo. The speaker config I usually use is (same options is obviously present through the control panel and speaker config when right clicking on the audio device):


 
   
  Strange how our experiences differ so much...the "Generic Software" OpenAL device often yields less than desirable results for me, and it's not just me; just look at all these people jumping through a few hoops to get other OpenAL devices working with Amnesia: The Dark Descent, just because for some reason, Frictional Games doesn't officially support other OpenAL implementations this time! (Not sure what their problem is when they were more than happy to allow hardware OpenAL with the Penumbra series...)
   
  Then there's our somewhat opposing opinions on CMSS-3D Headphone vs. Dolby Headphone, but I chalk that up to "CMSS-3D reduces bass and adds a bit of treble, DH does the opposite, and you're a self-admitted basshead" as one possibility. There's probably more to it, though, like the general...what's that word to describe whether or not something sounds like there's some sort of texture or veil in the way of the sound itself that I notice with certain headphones?
   
  I can't be bothered to set up the Realtek ALC889A on my mobo again, though. Too much risk of potentially screwing something up with the X-Fi driver installation. I'll consider it whenever I have another hard drive to run a Windows test install on for experimental purposes like this, though.
   
  Quote: 





fegefeuer said:


> Mirror's Edge  (Open AL)
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JS2_SCTFLM&hd=1 TruStudio Pro
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHhwUT4BYMk&hd=1 CMSS-3D
> ...


 
   
  Good videos. Sure enough, my opinion remains unchanged on THX TruStudio Surround...this one's from the Titanium HD in Entertainment Mode as opposed to a Recon3D device, right?
   
  Quote: 





fegefeuer said:


> I recorded this with CMSS-3D Headphone in the interface. We have to find out what SBX really does. THX TSP really sucks in comparison with CMSS-3D Headphone, though we have to consider that this is an Open AL Game, something extremely rare today unfortunately that gives CMSS-3D a rendering advantage (and consider that it still lacks EAX etc.). It reminds everyone what a sorry f....sorry state gaming audio is.
> 
> If people want to I can record games that don't give an advantage to anyone (aka pure middleware) and just show which solution does the "simple" virtualization better. Until then we need someone doing "my" ME run with SBX on and the same INI settings. If SBX is a renamed THX then we can forget about getting these new cards.


 
   
  Do you mean software-mixed audio, where everything has to perform on the same virtual 5.1/7.1 level that Dolby Headphone does?
   
  In that case, a few games like Dead Island and PlanetSide 2 spring to mind as having decent positional audio cues. I'm also tempted to throw in Just Cause 2, but that's a game that seriously needs some vertical height cues whenever I'm in a helicopter and trying to find that other enemy helicopter to shoot down...
   
  Quote: 





kenion said:


> I find that Battlefield 3 or Bad Company 2 have a really good channel-mixing and overall immersive sound.


 
   
  And I find that their positional audio mixing is just...terrible, even by XAudio2 and FMOD Ex standards. Can't get any precise positional audio cues no matter how I tweak the sound settings, both in-game and with the sound card settings. It's strange how they're polarizing like this, as Mad Lust Envy's also outspoken on their poor positional audio mixing (meaning it's not just the PC version), yet a lot of other people don't seem to have any problem with it.
   
  I wouldn't mind seeing a mod that backports the sound effects to Battlefield 2, though. Now that's the series at its finest gameplay-wise (maybe except for BF1942), and with some of the best positional audio out there to boot, courtesy of OpenAL.


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> I can't be bothered to set up the Realtek ALC889A on my mobo again, though. Too much risk of potentially screwing something up with the X-Fi driver installation. I'll consider it whenever I have another hard drive to run a Windows test install on for experimental purposes like this, though.


 
   
  Well you can use the same settings on your X-Fi card, was just easier for me posting the Realtek driver interface than posting 3 pics as the options are on separate messageboxes in the windows control panel.
   
  With the X-Fi card you have to go set windows control panel speaker config and check those same boxes as in above pic. In the X-Fi driver software should then be set to either Headphone or Stereo, unsure what sounds better among them but shouldn't be a huge difference / if any noticeable difference at all. On my Realtek onboard the connected device is set to "headphones" at least.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





rpgwizard said:


> Well you can use the same settings on your X-Fi card, was just easier for me posting the Realtek driver interface than posting 3 pics as the options are on separate messageboxes in the windows control panel.
> 
> With the X-Fi card you have to go set windows control panel speaker config and check those same boxes as in above pic. In the X-Fi driver software should then be set to either Headphone or Stereo, unsure what sounds better among them but shouldn't be a huge difference / if any noticeable difference at all. On my Realtek onboard the connected device is set to "headphones" at least.


 
   
  Wait, you mean setting the Windows speaker setting to 5.1 or 7.1 while the sound device is configured for headphones or downmixed stereo output? That's standard advice, actually.
   
  You just have to be sure that the sound device in question knows to downmix the surround channels into the stereo signal properly so you're not missing anything coming from those surround channels. For X-Fi cards running on Vista or later, that requires Headphone mode in the X-Fi control panel, as the checkbox to set synchronization with Windows' own speaker setting is only present in XP for some reason. In other words, it enforces speaker setting synchronization both ways EXCEPT for when the X-Fi is set to Headphones.


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

OK, wonder what's the case with Z series as it's using a whole new driver interface.
   
  Anyway I just saw the lowest tier "Z" model card on amazon.co.uk for only £56.50 / 65 EUR / $85 USD with the free shipping (usually US is cheaper than europe due to the high VAT 18-25% here included in the pricing so that deal strikes me as particularly good for a new product)! Sounds like a deal to me, not much to lose giving it some try. 
   
  EDIT: Looks like it was OEM, ie no package and stuff, just the card, that would explain the price.
   
  I'm just getting desperate finding a soundcard I'm truly satisfied with it... it's usually either software or hardware issues... hopefully the Soundblaster Z series will do both for me.


----------



## Anarion

rpgwizard said:


> OK, wonder what's the case with Z series as it's using a whole new driver interface.
> 
> Anyway I just saw the lowest tier "Z" model card on amazon.co.uk for only £56.50 / 65 EUR / $85 USD with the free shipping (usually US is cheaper than europe due to the high VAT 18-25% here included in the pricing so that deal strikes me as particularly good for a new product)! Sounds like a deal to me, not much to lose giving it some try.
> 
> ...


OEM version doesn't have leds, probably does not have good caps and does not have that fancy shield. That probably does not make any real difference though.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

anarion said:


> OEM version doesn't have leds, probably does not have good caps and does not have that fancy shield. That probably does not make any real difference though.




I highly doubt they would use cheaper caps just because it is OEM. The last thing they want are the caps popping. OEM hardware is almost always identical on the inside except for packaging and visual differences. 

And the EMI shield does protect the analog parts from interference. However I think the benefit would be more apparent in higher grade DAC'S and headphone amps with higher snr's. Still every bit of clarity and lower noise is beneficial.


----------



## Anarion

djinferno806 said:


> I highly doubt they would use cheaper caps just because it is OEM. The last thing they want are the caps popping. OEM hardware is almost always identical on the inside except for packaging and visual differences.
> 
> And the EMI shield does protect the analog parts from interference. However I think the benefit would be more apparent in higher grade DAC'S and headphone amps with higher snr's. Still every bit of clarity and lower noise is beneficial.


I basically meant that they almost certainly are not the gold ones.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

I agree they wouldn't be nichicon fine gold caps. Only some z's do. Maybe the earlier batch perhaps? Either way the regular ones are fine. I personally think the fine gold are just bragging rights lol. Maybe the lifespan is longer. But I don't think 99% of us would even tell a difference in audio quality. There are a few out there that swear they can hear a difference.


----------



## xeizo

It doesn't really matter if those caps are better or not, the Soundblaster Z will still not be in the same league as the higher priced cards even if the brand of caps are the same. Other choices of components matters way more ....
   
  I have the Z and it sounds surprisingly good even as an audiophile card, but there IS coloration even if not much, mostly in the treble. A Xonar ST/STX sounds audibly more refined and transparent, as will the ZxR do. There's a reason for the 65$ price bracket, good value granted but not exceptional.


----------



## Kenion

Quote: 





djinferno806 said:


> I agree they wouldn't be nichicon fine gold caps. Only some z's do. Maybe the earlier batch perhaps? Either way the regular ones are fine. I personally think the fine gold are just bragging rights lol. Maybe the lifespan is longer. But I don't think 99% of us would even tell a difference in audio quality. There are a few out there that swear they can hear a difference.


 

 There are diffrences between gold- and non-gold capacitors. Here is a document that shows the technical diffrence between aluminum electrolytic caps and gold caps in graphs and detail.
  http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/components/pdf/goldcap_tech-guide_052505.pdf
   
  Companies state they differ in longlevity and an audible "deeper bass". However, since the Z series cards are targeted more for the "mid-fi" consumer with speaker systems from 50 $~ to 300$~, I don't think most people will care besides their look. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Quote: 





xeizo said:


> Other choices of components matters way more ....


 
  Yea, thats true.


----------



## BetaWolf

Quote: 





djinferno806 said:


> I highly doubt they would use cheaper caps just because it is OEM. The last thing they want are the caps popping. OEM hardware is almost always identical on the inside except for packaging and visual differences.
> 
> And the EMI shield does protect the analog parts from interference. However I think the benefit would be more apparent in higher grade DAC'S and headphone amps with higher snr's. Still every bit of clarity and lower noise is beneficial.


 
  I'm confused. I thought the TI Burr-Brown was supposed to be a really good 24-bit DAC, and support up to 123 dB. Any higher, and you're getting close to the threshhold of pain.


----------



## xeizo

Quote: 





betawolf said:


> I'm confused. I thought the TI Burr-Brown was supposed to be a really good 24-bit DAC, and support up to 123 dB. Any higher, and you're getting close to the threshhold of pain.


 
   
  You're mixing up the cards discussed; it's the ZxR which has Burr-Brown, which indeed is a good DAC, but the question is if it's not of more importance for the ZxR because of the integrated power supply section and voltage filtering on the ZxR vs the lesser Z and Zx and also the use of the National LM4562 OP-amp on the line out instead of the generic JRC2114D on the Z and Zx. Also, the decoupling caps are much beefier, even if by the same brand. As you see, there's reason to believe the lesser cards are indeed lesser. They have a good DAC too though, the Cirrus CS4398 at 120dB S/N, but it's not only the DAC but the implementation and it's way more serious on the ZxR(or the Xonar ST/STX).


----------



## Evshrug

betawolf said:


> I'm confused. I thought the TI Burr-Brown was supposed to be a really good 24-bit DAC, and support up to 123 dB. Any higher, and you're getting close to the threshhold of pain.



Just to add, because of your "threshold of pain" comment, the 123 dB spec you're quoting (I thought the ZxR was better than that even?) is the difference of the signal-to-noise ratio (also written as SNR, S/N, or S:N), NOT the decibels of volume "loudness" and sound pressure. Just means the noise floor is very low, not necessarily how loud the soundcard can go.


----------



## stv014

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Just to add, because of your "threshold of pain" comment, the 123 dB spec you're quoting (I thought the ZxR was better than that even?) is the difference of the signal-to-noise ratio (also written as SNR, S/N, or S:N), NOT the decibels of volume "loudness" and sound pressure. Just means the noise floor is very low, not necessarily how loud the soundcard can go.


 
   
  However, if the peak SPL is not high enough, the noise will be under the threshold of audibility. Also, unless you listen to silence with the volume turned all the way up, noise tends to be masked by the music and ambient noise. Other than providing extra dynamic range for digital volume control, SNR much higher than 100-110 dB is more marketing than something that is really useful in practice, assuming that it is really achieved (manufacturers may lie about the specs, or they are only valid under best case conditions, or the specs are copied from the datasheet of the DAC chip). Try comparing these files to get an idea what various levels of noise sound like (the 16-bit version has an A-weighted noise level of about -97.5 dB added, and each bit of reduced resolution makes it worse by an additional 6 dB). Of course, having some safety margin is useful, but you will be surprised how difficult it is to hear even noise that looks bad on paper.
  When using the built-in headphone amplifier of a sound card, the extra SNR can be useful if you have sensitive headphones, because the volume control is often digital (it is on the Xonar Essence cards, for example), and then much of the dynamic range is not used.


----------



## stv014

Quote: 





kenion said:


> There are diffrences between gold- and non-gold capacitors. Here is a document that shows the technical diffrence between aluminum electrolytic caps and gold caps in graphs and detail.
> http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/components/pdf/goldcap_tech-guide_052505.pdf


 
   
  It does not really show what the practical advantages of those gold capacitors are for audio applications in particular, though. Of course, a good design does not have many electrolytic capacitors in the audio signal path in the first place, regardless of whether they are gold or not.
Here and here there are some samples recorded from a Xonar D1 - which has a lowly CS4398 DAC, NJM5532 op amps, and generic non-gold capacitors - that can be compared against the original audio. Chances are that you would have difficulty hearing the difference without knowing which file is which.


----------



## xeizo

Quote: 





stv014 said:


> It does not really show what the practical advantages of those gold capacitors are for audio applications in particular, though. Of course, a good design does not have many electrolytic capacitors in the audio signal path in the first place, regardless of whether they are gold or not.
> Here and here there are some samples recorded from a Xonar D1 - which has a lowly CS4398 DAC, NJM5532 op amps, and generic non-gold capacitors - that can be compared against the original audio. Chances are that you would have difficulty hearing the difference without knowing which file is which.


 
   
  Yes, the implementation is everything, ie the sum of the parts rather than just the parts. I haven't finished my critical analyzis of the SQ of the Soundblaster Z, but as it looks right now so does the Xonar D1/DX indeed sound better than Soundblaster Z for pure stereo listening. As I said earlier the Soundblaster Z has a slight coloration to the sound, most easily detected in the treble. None of the sort to point my finger on detected from the Xonar DX. But the Soundblaster Z has other advantages, as better gaming support.
   
  The difference between the Xonar DX and the more expensive Xonar ST is a closer call, definetely no real verdict yet, but it _feels_ better to use the Xonar ST. Not very objective


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

What kind of coloration in the highs? I personally tested an ASUS D2 and disliked its overly thin/analytical/bright/sparkly tonality but enjoyed Titanium HD's gently warm sound.
   
  BTW, quoting from another forum:
   


> SBX is better than anything I have ever used for gaming sound. Not for music but for directional gaming sound, it does the best job ever of detail and distance. Things sound normal and natural in terms of where the bad guys are and how far away.
> 
> I would sell the triton and mixamp and buy a pair of headphones like mine. Sennheiser 558 or 598. Run them directly out of the Z and there you go.


----------



## xeizo

Quote: 





rpgwizard said:


> What kind of coloration in the highs? I personally tested an ASUS D2 and disliked its overly thin/analytical/bright/sparkly tonality but enjoyed Titanium HD's gently warm sound.
> 
> BTW, quoting from another forum:


 
   
  I guess you ran your headphones directly on the cards headphone output? Not strange the D2 wasn't to your liking then, as it doesn't even have a real headphone amplifier. It simply couldn't drive your headphones corrrect.
   
  However, if you use an external headphone amplifier for the different cards, as I do, you rule out their ability to drive cans and only hear the difference of their respective sound signature. That difference is much smaller than between their can-driving ability, much smaller, but there is a difference and the Xonar Essence ST is definetely - ever so little - but still more smooth than the Soundblaster Z. I expect the ZxR will edge out that small difference, at a price of course.
   
  Also, I'm talking about music quality, the aforementioned speaker was talking about gaming sound and afaik there's no real competition to Creative there so he's probably 100% right.


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

Quote: 





xeizo said:


> I guess you ran your headphones directly on the cards headphone output? Not strange the D2 wasn't to your liking then, as it doesn't even have a real headphone amplifier. It simply couldn't drive your headphones corrrect.
> 
> However, if you use an external headphone amplifier for the different cards, as I do, you rule out their ability to drive cans and only hear the difference of their respective sound signature. That difference is much smaller than between their can-driving ability, much smaller, but there is a difference and the Xonar Essence ST is definetely - ever so little - but still more smooth than the Soundblaster Z. I expect the ZxR will edge out that small difference, at a price of course.
> 
> Also, I'm talking about music quality, the aforementioned speaker was talking about gaming sound and afaik there's no real competition to Creative there so he's probably 100% right.


 
   
  It wasn't a case of not being able to drive correctly, I was testing with 32 - 40 ohm headphones and compared D2 vs Titanium HD vs Realtek ALC889A onboard and I found Realtek to have the most natural tonality among them back them and quite in-between D2 (slightly colder/brigher signature) and Titanium HD (slightly on the warm side of neutral) and the ALC889A quite in-between the two. Note, not talking quality but pure tonality/percieved frequency response balance.
   
  I strive for a neutral source/amp etc but between warm and bright signature and dry versus wet/reverby/liquidy or whatever you'd call it, I easily take warm/wet over cold/dry. My experiences with the D2 was overly cold & dry. I would probably have liked D2 more today when paired with a ZO amp which is definitely on the warm side of neutral (highs slightly pushed back even at the lowest bass countour level).


----------



## xeizo

The D2 would struggle even with 32 Ohm Cans, it just isn't a headphone driving card. In example so does my ALC892 and SoundMax 2000 drive headphones, any headphones, much better than what my Xonar DX does. Even my very old X-Fi XtremeGamer does so. But the Xonar DX delivers a much more pure line level signal which benefits external amplification. The Xonar D2 is good/bad in the exact same way as the DX. 
   
  But cards like Titanium HD, Soundblaster Z and Xonar ST have  built in amplification which surpasses onboard audio, even the cheap Xonar DG/DGX has so. D2X/D2 and DX/D1 doesn't.


----------



## Domux

[size=10pt]I have had the ZXR for a couple of days now and it sounds absolutely amazing with my Q701 Headphones. I never heard such amazing spellbinding music before, my entire world have transformed. I brought my headphones last week and changed to ZXR from X-fi music card without any amp.[/size]
   
[size=10pt]There is just a little problem, I can’t get the SBX function to work properly when using the ¼” headphones output. This is really frustrating when playing games, because you have no sense of enemy position. When connecting headphones to the L/R RCA output, the SBX 3d Surround is working perfectly fine, but with sacrifice of sound quality.[/size]
   
[size=10pt]This problem seems really odd and if someone else has a ZXR, could you please tell me if you have another experience with the headphone output?[/size]


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Quote: 





xeizo said:


> The D2 would struggle even with 32 Ohm Cans, it just isn't a headphone driving card. In example so does my ALC892 and SoundMax 2000 drive headphones, any headphones, much better than what my Xonar DX does. Even my very old X-Fi XtremeGamer does so. But the Xonar DX delivers a much more pure line level signal which benefits external amplification. The Xonar D2 is good/bad in the exact same way as the DX.
> 
> But cards like Titanium HD, Soundblaster Z and Xonar ST have  built in amplification which surpasses onboard audio, even the cheap Xonar DG/DGX has so. D2X/D2 and DX/D1 doesn't.


 
   
   
  The Titanium HD doesnt have a headamp.  Taken from another thread after ROBSCIX reviewed the card thoroughly. 
   
   



robscix said:


> No, while this card does have a dedicated headphones output, it does NOT have a dedicated amplifier circuit.


----------



## BetaWolf

If you guys need a good laugh, look at some of the Newegg reviews for the ZxR.
   
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829102050&SortField=0&SummaryType=0&PageSize=10&SelectedRating=-1&VideoOnlyMark=False&IsFeedbackTab=true#scrollFullInfo


----------



## xeizo

Quote: 





djinferno806 said:


> The Titanium HD doesnt have a headamp.  Taken from another thread after ROBSCIX reviewed the card thoroughly.


 
   
  Well, RobScix doesn't know everything he's talking about:
   
  Quote: 





> _Headphone output for audio listening up to 115dB 33 Ohms, and 117dB, 330 Ohms, at 24bit/96kHz _ Read more at http://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/3671/creative_labs_sound_blaster_x_fi_titanium_hd_sound_card/index3.html#zOLbVuoflrL4cUcP.99​


 
   
  The headphone output on Titanium HD is almost as good as on the Xonar STX, probably virtually indistinguishable, and way, way over the quality on the HP-out of Xonar D2. It may be though that it doesn't have a dedicated IC from Texas Instruments, like some other cards, but Creative has used _something _on the card for driving headphones effectively as the specs suggests(and your listening impressions - it does sound GOOD, doesn't it) ....


----------



## DJINFERNO806

xeizo said:


> Well, RobScix doesn't know everything he's talking about:
> 
> 
> The headphone output on Titanium HD is almost as good as on the Xonar STX, probably virtually indistinguishable, and way, way over the quality on the HP-out of Xonar D2. It may be though that it doesn't have a dedicated IC from Texas Instruments, like some other cards, but Creative has used _something_ on the card for driving headphones effectively as the specs suggests(and your listening impressions - it does sound GOOD, doesn't it) ....




That was my whole point, it doesn't have a dedicated headphone amp. I'm sure it does sound good but I just wanted to correct the point that there isn't a head amp dedicated circuit. I wonder what people with hi ohm headphones think of it. Anyways I don't want to hijack the thread I was just stating a correction I had read.



betawolf said:


> If you guys need a good laugh, look at some of the Newegg reviews for the ZxR.
> 
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829102050&SortField=0&SummaryType=0&PageSize=10&SelectedRating=-1&VideoOnlyMark=False&IsFeedbackTab=true#scrollFullInfo




LOL one guy thinks his PC is now a 6 core because his dual core plus the zxr added together.... wow.


----------



## xeizo

LoL, only _six_ while I have _1536_ streamprocessors in my gaming box


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





xeizo said:


> Well, RobScix doesn't know everything he's talking about:


 
  Nobody knows everything but you can be sure that I would have traced the circuits on the card and verified the feature set with the designers.
   
  I stand by my information.
   
  Feel free to correct me...
   
   
  True both cards are very similar for certain measurments you cannot just compare the head outs like that...also to point out a difference of say 113dB to 117dB for SNR..etc is quite alot as the scale is LOG, not linear.
 So when some see a measurment that looks similar in all actuality it is not close at all.
   
  They are both great cards.


----------



## ROBSCIX

> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Funny. Just some kids...
   
  On topic:
   
  Might have a Creative ZXR coming soon for testing.  Had quite a few people ask me for impressions, so I have to check it out and run it through some tests with my system.
  For those interested, I will keep you posted.


----------



## xeizo

Quote: 





robscix said:


> Nobody knows everything but you can be sure that I would have traced the circuits on the card and verified the feature set with the designers.
> 
> I stand by my information.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Well, the point was that some cards are similarly good sounding on both head out and line out, like Titanium HD or Xonar STX, but some cards have a inferior head out while they are fairly great using line out. Like Xonar D1/DX and Xonar D2/D2X.
   
  So, the poster stated that Xonars where bright sounding based on using the head out on a D2 which HAS a inferior head out, that doesn't mean the card will remain bright sounding when using line out. Like one does when using a external headamp. So, the "bad" D2 can be great with an external amp, while the Titanium HD or Xonar STX wont see as much of an improvement, regardless of which chip they happen to use. They are just specced to be able to drive most headphones, while the aforementioned Xonars are not.


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

I'm still pretty puzzled what card to get. I'm very interested in the better DAC + caps on ZxR but I don't care for the rest of the extras like the added card + ACM module so it feels quite lot extra to spend if I compare 86 EUR for the Z card vs 225 EUR for a DAC + cap upgrade on the ZxR and then I'm not perfectly sure the software side will keep me fully satisfied either with the ZxR too.
   
  I'm currently still using Realtek onboard ALC889A chip so the Z card already should bring a noticable upgrade one would think. What are your opinions, I really got trouble to decide, it maybe feels like I should check out the Z card first to get an idea if I even like the changed software.
   
  At the same time I also think that if I was to get the ZxR now it's probably something I'd end up using for years as I do want to have a soundcard as a PC enthusiast and doing all my listening from my computer only and occasionally do gaming as well and I like the added features of soundcards versus USB DACs.


----------



## stv014

Quote: 





djinferno806 said:


> That was my whole point, it doesn't have a dedicated headphone amp. I'm sure it does sound good but I just wanted to correct the point that there isn't a head amp dedicated circuit. I wonder what people with hi ohm headphones think of it.


 
   
  As far as I know, the Titanium HD uses an NJM4556 op amp (surface mount version) to drive the headphone output. The same chip is also in a number of other Creative/E-Mu products. It is actually fairly well suited for driving headphones, and is also used in the O2 (two DIP8 NJM4556's in parallel for increased current output and power handling). However, the Titanium HD does have a relatively high, ~35-36 Ω output impedance.
   
  It is a common belief that only "hi ohm headphones" can be difficult to drive, while low impedance ones can be safely plugged into anything with a 1/8" jack, but it is incorrect. In fact, other than the amount of voltage required for the same power, low impedance is harder to drive in every way, and line outputs are often not designed to handle it. A line input typically has at least several kΩ impedance, compared to that, a 32 Ω headphone is like a short circuit. It may still be driven to usable volume, but possibly with increased distortion and frequency response problems.


----------



## Sierra419

I took a look through a few pages and didn't see an answer to my question. 

Does the titanium xfi HD card provide enough power to properly drive a pair of dt990 pros or a q701?


----------



## stv014

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> True both cards are very similar for certain measurments you cannot just compare the head outs like that...also to point out a difference of say 113dB to 117dB for SNR..etc is quite alot as the scale is LOG, not linear.
> So when some see a measurment that looks similar in all actuality it is not close at all.


 
   
  -119 dB noise may be only half as much noise voltage as -113 dB, but if -113 dB is already inaudible, then the improvement is of little to no real practical value, but it looks good for marketing. Under normal listening conditions, people cannot even hear the noise floor of the 44.1 kHz/16-bit CD format, which is worse than -100 dB A-weighted. It should also be noted that when multiple uncorrelated noise sources are added, then it is the power that needs to be summed. So, for example, if there is 95 dB amplifier + ambient + source SNR (a figure that is even optimistic, a typical recording on a CD already has more noise than that), going from a DAC with -110 dB noise to another one with -120 dB only improves the overall SNR from -94.86 dB to -94.99 dB.
   
  Very low DAC noise can, however, be useful for digital volume control. That is in fact used on many sound cards to reduce costs. But with an external amplifier that controls the volume after the DAC (which can therefore be at or near 100% digital volume all the time), the dynamic range of the DAC does not need to be that high to be good enough.
   
  Of course, what is advertised by the manufacturer, might not always be achieved in reality. But it is not guaranteed that better advertised specs will translate to better real world performance, either. For example, the headphone output of the Xonar Essence STX is specified to have an SNR of 117 dB. That looks great on paper, and one would think that no one can hear that. However, the specs do not mention that the DAC is more noisy at 44.1 kHz (the sample rate used by well over 90% of available music), dropping the value to about 110-111 dB. Also, the card has fully digital volume and gain control, so it always outputs the maximum amount of noise, regardless of the volume or gain. Reducing the signal level from the maximum of 7 Vrms to something that is listenable with typical headphones will reduce the dynamic range accordingly, too. At 0.4 Vrms (which is plenty loud enough with efficient modern headphones), and 44.1 kHz sample rate, the headphone output has a less impressive dynamic range of 86 dB, or 14.3 bits. If the signal level is reduced further to 0.1 Vrms - for example for a sensitive IEM - then only 74 dB is left, and the hiss may actually become audible. The line output of a cheaper card combined with a low noise external amplifier, like the O2, will easily outperform those numbers.


----------



## xeizo

Quote: 





stv014 said:


> -119 dB noise may be only half as much noise voltage as -113 dB, but if -113 dB is already inaudible, then the improvement is of little to no real practical value, but it looks good for marketing. Under normal listening conditions, people cannot even hear the noise floor of the 44.1 kHz/16-bit CD format, which is worse than -100 dB A-weighted. It should also be noted that when multiple uncorrelated noise sources are added, then it is the power that needs to be summed. So, for example, if there is 95 dB amplifier + ambient + source SNR (a figure that is even optimistic, a typical recording on a CD already has more noise than that), going from a DAC with -110 dB noise to another one with -120 dB only improves the overall SNR from -94.86 dB to -94.99 dB.
> 
> Very low DAC noise can, however, be useful for digital volume control. That is in fact used on many sound cards to reduce costs. But with an external amplifier that controls the volume after the DAC (which can therefore be at or near 100% digital volume all the time), the dynamic range of the DAC does not need to be that high to be good enough.
> 
> Of course, what is advertised by the manufacturer, might not always be achieved in reality. But it is not guaranteed that better advertised specs will translate to better real world performance, either. For example, the headphone output of the Xonar Essence STX is specified to have an SNR of 117 dB. That looks great on paper, and one would think that no one can hear that. However, the specs do not mention that the DAC is more noisy at 44.1 kHz (the sample rate used by well over 90% of available music), dropping the value to about 110-111 dB. Also, the card has fully digital volume and gain control, so it always outputs the maximum amount of noise, regardless of the volume or gain. Reducing the signal level from the maximum of 7 Vrms to something that is listenable with typical headphones will reduce the dynamic range accordingly, too. At 0.4 Vrms (which is plenty loud enough with efficient modern headphones), and 44.1 kHz sample rate, the headphone output has a less impressive dynamic range of 86 dB, or 14.3 bits. If the signal level is reduced further to 0.1 Vrms - for example for a sensitive IEM - then only 74 dB is left, and the hiss may actually become audible. The line output of a cheaper card combined with a low noise external amplifier, like the O2, will easily outperform those numbers.


 
   
  Great post, I fully agree that an external amp is a superior choice, the most cost effective solution if one wants a "real" soundcard for it's features over an external DAC is ie the cheaper Xonar D1/DX or the Soundblaster Z AND an external amp. It will sound better than the top of the line cards using only their headphone out.
   
  Onboard sound is not quite there yet, even if it's getting closer with every iteration, there IS easily audible noice and colored sound with most onboard audio so a soundcard of some sort is still to a benefit for an audiophile. Many people use optical/spdif out to a receiver or a digital amp, or network streaming, and really don't need a soundcard at all.


----------



## Sierra419

xeizo said:


> Great post, I fully agree that an external amp is a superior choice, the most cost effective solution if one wants a "real" soundcard for it's features over an external DAC is ie the cheaper Xonar D1/DX or the Soundblaster Z AND an external amp. It will sound better than the top of the line cards using only their headphone out.
> 
> Onboard sound is not quite there yet, even if it's getting closer with every iteration, there IS easily audible noice and colored sound with most onboard audio so a soundcard of some sort is still to a benefit for an audiophile. Many people use optical/spdif out to a receiver or a digital amp, or network streaming, and really don't need a soundcard at all.




Hmm... So should I go with an external DAC and amp over a high end sound blaster card and amp?


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





xeizo said:


> Great post, I fully agree that an external amp is a superior choice, the most cost effective solution if one wants a "real" soundcard for it's features over an external DAC is ie the cheaper Xonar D1/DX or the Soundblaster Z AND an external amp. It will sound better than the top of the line cards using only their headphone out.
> 
> Onboard sound is not quite there yet, even if it's getting closer with every iteration, there IS easily audible noice and colored sound with most onboard audio so a soundcard of some sort is still to a benefit for an audiophile. Many people use optical/spdif out to a receiver or a digital amp, or network streaming, and really don't need a soundcard at all.


 
   
  Well price here is the point, if you look at the overall quality and components on a ST(X) it is a very goodpackage.
  I don't think anybody suggested the head amp could not be surpassed by an external unit...Issue here is you pay more money.
  Any product can be surpassed if you want to dig into your pocket.
   
  If you want to go that route, take an ST(X) oraTitanHD and use the line outputs to an external high quality amplifier and you will have a better package over a cheaper card withlower and DAC connected to an external amp.
   
  To note, Digital can be a downgrade in many situtations depending on the source quality.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





sierra419 said:


> Hmm... So should I go with an external DAC and amp over a high end sound blaster card and amp?


 
  Depends on your budget, what you want for features and what you need the system to do...


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





stv014 said:


> As far as I know, the Titanium HD uses an NJM4556 op amp (surface mount version) to drive the headphone output. The same chip is also in a number of other Creative/E-Mu products. It is actually fairly well suited for driving headphones, and is also used in the O2 (two DIP8 NJM4556's in parallel for increased current output and power handling). However, the Titanium HD does have a relatively high, ~35-36 Ω output impedance.
> 
> It is a common belief that only "hi ohm headphones" can be difficult to drive, while low impedance ones can be safely plugged into anything with a 1/8" jack, but it is incorrect. In fact, other than the amount of voltage required for the same power, low impedance is harder to drive in every way, and line outputs are often not designed to handle it. A line input typically has at least several kΩ impedance, compared to that, a 32 Ω headphone is like a short circuit. It may still be driven to usable volume, but possibly with increased distortion and frequency response problems.


 
  No, the Titanium HD does NOT have a headphone amplifier.  I verified this information with the actual designers of the card.  It has been awhile since Iooked at that PCB,
  IIRC, you may be mistaken the opamp for buffering the mic input for a head amplifier.


----------



## Sierra419

robscix said:


> Depends on your budget, what you want for features and what you need the system to do...



Well it's for surround sound gaming with a pair of dt990's or q701's. That's really it. Maybe blu rays every now and then or netflix but daily gaming. I'm just confused on what would be better, a nice sound blaster and fiio e9 amp, or a fiio e9 amp and fiio e17 dac? Is it any different? Would they sound the same?If I went with an external amp/ dac would I still get simulated surround sound audio like Dolby Headphone? How would that effect the soundstage of the phones? Or will it? I don't want to get these nice phones and an amp and a dac just to get plain old stereo sound while gaming.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

sierra419 said:


> Well it's for surround sound gaming with a pair of dt990's or q701's. That's really it. Maybe blu rays every now and then or netflix but daily gaming. I'm just confused on what would be better, a nice sound blaster and fiio e9 amp, or a fiio e9 amp and fiio e17 dac? Is it any different? Would they sound the same?




Well you are going to need a sound card then. No other way to get surround sound from your games to your headphones. Might as well get the zxr/z since they already have the head amps built in.


----------



## Sierra419

djinferno806 said:


> Well you are going to need a sound card then. No other way to get surround sound from your games to your headphones. Might as well get the zxr/z since they already have the head amps built in.




Ok awesome! You've been immensely helpful. Is the zxr the top of the line? I want something that's not going to get too old too fast and I want something with all the bells and whistles for awesome sound. Is the built in amp enough to power a q701 or dt990 pro 250ohm? Also, how do I check that?


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





sierra419 said:


> Hmm... So should I go with an external DAC and amp over a high end sound blaster card and amp?


 
   
  The first question is whether or not you're gaming.
   
  If you are, then audiophile DACs won't cut it due to their total lack of gaming features, simple as that. Sound cards are the way to go.
   
  If you aren't, then you can get something like the ODAC that's just plug-and-play convenience at its finest.


----------



## stv014

Quote: 





robscix said:


> No, the Titanium HD does NOT have a headphone amplifier.  I verified this information with the actual designers of the card.  It has been awhile since Iooked at that PCB,
> IIRC, you may be mistaken the opamp for buffering the mic input for a head amplifier.


 
   
  Maybe it is really on the microphone input, I assumed that it is used as a headphone driver, as that is what makes the most sense. The main advantage of the NJM4556 is that it can output high current, and can drive low impedance loads with low distortion. Those parameters are important for a headphone amplifier, but irrelevant for a microphone amplifier. For the latter purpose, there are better (less noisy etc.) chips at equal or lower price.
  It is pointless to debate whether the headphone output of the card is "amplified" or not, but if it has a separate buffer from the line output that is optimized for driving lower impedance loads, then it can be called a headphone amplifier, even if not necessarily a great one.


----------



## Sierra419

namelesspfg said:


> The first question is whether or not you're gaming.
> 
> If you are, then audiophile DACs won't cut it due to their total lack of gaming features, simple as that. Sound cards are the way to go.
> 
> If you aren't, then you can get something like the ODAC that's just plug-and-play convenience at its finest.




Thank you SO much!!! What sound blaster card would you prefer? The titanium xfi HD or the zxr? Not sure of the difference nor which is best.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





stv014 said:


> Maybe it is really on the microphone input, I assumed that it is used as a headphone driver, as that is what makes the most sense. The main advantage of the NJM4556 is that it can output high current, and can drive low impedance loads with low distortion. Those parameters are important for a headphone amplifier, but irrelevant for a microphone amplifier. For the latter purpose, there are better (less noisy etc.) chips at equal or lower price.
> It is pointless to debate whether the headphone output of the card is "amplified" or not, but if it has a separate buffer from the line output that is optimized for driving lower impedance loads, then it can be called a headphone amplifier, even if not necessarily a great one.


 
  Yes that is exactly what I thought at first!
  I don't think it is pointless to have the correct information around on if a headphone output is amplified or not, especially when the output is what is being discussed.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





sierra419 said:


> Thank you SO much!!! What sound blaster card would you prefer? The titanium xfi HD or the zxr? Not sure of the difference nor which is best.


 
  Depends on what features you are looking for.  Read over the information on both products and decide from there.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Quote: 





sierra419 said:


> Thank you SO much!!! What sound blaster card would you prefer? The titanium xfi HD or the zxr? Not sure of the difference nor which is best.


 
   
  Just for the fact alone that the ZXR is newer and their driver support will be best.  Their specs are up there with the highest consumer sound cards.  Both those sound cards have similiar specs however the ZXR will be able to drive your DT990's properly since it has a high quality TI headphone amp.  
   
  There is no point in getting a TiHD nowadays anymore unless you really still want proper hardware support for older games that use OpenAL or implement EAX.  However I will say that my Z does a fantastic job in software with older games that support those technologies.
   
  Just go with the ZXR, my Z has had fabulous driver stability and performance so far so there should be no difference wit the ZXR as they are the same chipset and features.  I am personally going to sell my Z as soon as the ZXR is available locally here in Canada.
   
*Note:  This is my personal opinion that i derived from MY logic, you should still make up your own mind and read about both cards.*


----------



## Heretic817

TiHD if you feel like you need the hardware support for surround sound in older titles. Get the ZXR if you only play newer games if for no other reason then Creative might keep up driver support for longer than the TiHD.
   
  External DAC will not give you surround sound unless you get a USB DAC that supports it though you might as well get a card to do that.
   
  As far as the headphone amp in the card goes. I don't know it's soooo hard to tell what amp can "properly" drive a headphone as neither the headphones, sound cards or the amps are fully documented.
   
  As such I bought an O2. At least I have one piece of equipment with proper specs.
   
  Just sayin' I wish we could get proper tech docs. so we can all make well informed choices. It's electronics not magic.


----------



## Sierra419

Sweet. Thanks guys, you really helped out a lot. With all that being said, does the sound card give my stereo headphones good "Dolby headphone" surround sound or does it just give me stereo? That's the part I'm really confused about mostly. If I have dt990 pros that are supposed to have a really large sound stage, does the sound card emulate the sound stage and positional audio or the headphones themselves? I just want to make sure thst I'm getting a Dolby headphone effect and not just stereo


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





sierra419 said:


> Sweet. Thanks guys, you really helped out a lot. With all that being said, does the sound card give my stereo headphones good "Dolby headphone" surround sound or does it just give me stereo? That's the part I'm really confused about mostly. If I have dt990 pros that are supposed to have a really large sound stage, does the sound card emulate the sound stage and positional audio or the headphones themselves? I just want to make sure thst I'm getting a Dolby headphone effect and not just stereo


 
  No, neither of those products offer "Dolby Headphone" but they offer similar types of imaging technology for headphones.  So, yes you can have a virtual surround feild for music, movies or gaming on either of those products.


----------



## melterx12

So after owning the Sound Blaster Z for about a month I decided to upgrade to the ZxR, and just got it today - here are my impressions:
   
  - Overall Audio Improvement over Sound Blaster Z is minor, but definitely noticable on my ATH-M50S headphones.
   
  - When connected to the headphone jack, the headphones do not sound muddier vs the Line out as they did on the Z (in fact they sound a bit better / clearer than on the Line Out now imo.
   
  - Also when connected to the headphone jack, the Sound Blaster Z control panel offers me to select the gain for the headphones for either Normal Gain (32 ohm) or High Gain (600 ohm). I am scared to try the 600 Ohm setting as the software warns me it may damage my headphones if they are not built for 600 ohm amplifiers (which the ATH-M50S is not). This option was definitely not present on the Sound Blaster Z.
   
  - I beleive the audio quality sounds better for some reason if the headphones are connected directly to the sound card instead of through the ACM. (If anyone can explain why that would be great.. I really wanted to use the ACM but I do not want to sacrifice audio quality, especially after b uying a $250 sound card)
   
  - The Headphone / Speaker software switch switches audio outputs MUCH faster than on the Sound Blaster Z. On the Z there would be a 3-4 second delay when switching, on the ZxR it is nearly instantaneous.
   
  - No red LED on the card! (was annoying to me on the Z)


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

Theoretically connecting to external devices and hooking up from one source to another will always worsen the result, in most cases and then matter how trained the ears are or how bad is the cables (high impedance would cause more changes) etc you may or may not pick up the difference. Then I have no idea what's inside the ACM module but yea I usually avoid using front panels for audio etc personally why I'm not interested in paying extra for the ACM module either.
   
  I wish there was a $199 version without the ACM module (and possibly the extra card) as I'm just interested in that higher SQ but 86 vs 225 EUR is a BIG difference...


----------



## DJINFERNO806

melterx12 said:


> So after owning the Sound Blaster Z for about a month I decided to upgrade to the ZxR, and just got it today - here are my impressions:
> 
> - Overall Audio Improvement over Sound Blaster Z is minor, but definitely noticable on my ATH-M50S headphones.
> 
> ...




How much of a difference are we talking here with the ACM? It seems weird creative would release the ACM and have it negatively impact the signal. Are you sure it'd not just the volume knob that needs to be fine tuned to the correct volume?

I hope the acm cable quality isn't the culprit for this


----------



## Sierra419

I'm curious as well. I'm thinking about the getting the Zx. Isn't the only difference between Zx and Zxr the second card?


----------



## Evshrug

sierra419 said:


> I'm curious as well. I'm thinking about the getting the Zx. Isn't the only difference between Zx and Zxr the second card?




No, the ZxR has upgraded internal components and noise shielding. Also, it's mostly black colored 

The daughter card is mostly inputs for audio creation, like musicians or podcasters I guess. I'm not the most knowledgeable about that.


----------



## melterx12

Quote: 





djinferno806 said:


> How much of a difference are we talking here with the ACM? It seems weird creative would release the ACM and have it negatively impact the signal. Are you sure it'd not just the volume knob that needs to be fine tuned to the correct volume?
> 
> I hope the acm cable quality isn't the culprit for this


 
  I have no way of scientifically measuring the difference so I cant exactly say "how much" it is just slightly less crisp sound. I compared the sound with the volume knob at max and having it on 25% volume in windows.


----------



## stv014

Quote: 





robscix said:


> I don't think it is pointless to have the correct information around on if a headphone output is amplified or not, especially when the output is what is being discussed.


 
   
  It is a pointless debate without having detailed specs or measurements of the headphone output, and without a clear definition of where the line is drawn between "amplified" and not.


----------



## Evshrug

melterx12 said:


> I have no way of scientifically measuring the difference so I cant exactly say "how much" it is just slightly less crisp sound. I compared the sound with the volume knob at max and having it on 25% volume in windows.



Someone else can correct me on this, but I would think you'd hear better SQ with windows close to max volume (and turning down the ACM).



stv014 said:


> It is a pointless debate without having detailed specs or measurements of the headphone output, and without a clear definition of where the line is drawn between "amplified" and not.



Kinda like the difference between hot and warm coffee.
Regardless, a signal must be amplified to be audible and controlled. Whether the manufacturer calls that amplification an amp or a buffer, the specs matter more than the name, no?


----------



## stv014

Quote: 





robscix said:


> Well price here is the point, if you look at the overall quality and components on a ST(X) it is a very goodpackage.
> I don't think anybody suggested the head amp could not be surpassed by an external unit...Issue here is you pay more money.
> Any product can be surpassed if you want to dig into your pocket.
> 
> If you want to go that route, take an ST(X) oraTitanHD and use the line outputs to an external high quality amplifier and you will have a better package over a cheaper card withlower and DAC connected to an external amp.


 
   
  The comparison was between STX with the built-in amplifier, and a cheaper card with an external amplifier, which does not even have to be that expensive. The latter can perform better with many commonly used headphones. I have already shown how under typical usage conditions the STX headphone output loses much of the dynamic range of the DAC, but compared to something like the O2, it will also have higher distortion, and - due to the higher output impedance - less flat frequency response. Even a "cheap" card like the Xonar D1 can already have a very good DAC, and the amplifier differences outweigh the small DAC differences. Although the EMI shielding on the "higher end" sound cards might be useful in some PCs.
   
  I do use the STX, and its built-in amplifier, however. But that is because I find the higher quality ADC useful (something that most people probably do not care about), and I have high impedance headphones which are not affected much by the disadvantages of the TPA6120 and the digital volume and gain control. It is also convenient to have an "all in one" internal package, rather than an external box powered by a wall wart (or worse yet, batteries).


----------



## Anarion

djinferno806 said:


> How much of a difference are we talking here with the ACM? It seems weird creative would release the ACM and have it negatively impact the signal. Are you sure it'd not just the volume knob that needs to be fine tuned to the correct volume?
> 
> I hope the acm cable quality isn't the culprit for this


I have not noticed any negative side effect by using ACM. I don't have really option though. I have to use it if I want to keep my hearing.


----------



## Evshrug

stv014 said:


> ... It is also convenient to have an "all in one" internal package, rather than an external box powered by a wall wart (or worse yet, batteries).



It is definitely a trick sometimes connecting my tube amp to a wall outlet to use headphones with my computer. I bought a Monster power strip (bundled free with my TV), but it introduces grounding noise in the background that I guess is due to the transformer or power-conditioner built into it, so all the computer bits (& my Xbox) are plugged into it and the tube amp's wire leading to it's wall-wart stretches across to the other power outlet on the other wall of my room. I usually use my FiiO Mont Blanc with my computer/Xbox instead, the battery power is a boon for fewer wires and usually comes with me to charge on my nightstand table next to my bed every night after I'm done with music anyway. I could see someone being frustrated if they often ran out of battery power, though.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Some users are reporting ASIO playback support now through a driver update however I cant seem to find this.
   
  Let me know if you guys can.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





anarion said:


> I have not noticed any negative side effect by using ACM. I don't have really option though. I have to use it if I want to keep my hearing.


 
   
  I am hoping to get one here this week to check out.


----------



## shredzy

I really cannot decide between the Zx and the ZxR....the price difference here is $130, I won't be using the daughter board. Play games and love listening to music (currently have a Essence STX and Denon 2K's).....it seems the price difference is due to the daughter board? Is the DAC on the ZxR that much better then the Zx? I'm willing to spend the extra but if its not worth it....then no thanks.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

In my opinion the DAC will be definitely better and you will notice it easily. Less colored for sure and with a nice set of cans you will appreciate the difference even more


----------



## Anarion

New drivers add ASIO support indeed.





It's proper multi-client ASIO driver like with X-Fi. This is truly strong product line now. I was using ASIO out in Foobar and Cubase 6 64-bit.


----------



## apav

Will I be able to hear the difference between my current ZX and the ZXR? I use Beyerdynamic DT 990 Pro 250 Ohm headphones. I might want to get a ZXR when they become available, but I have no need for the daughterboard and I'm not sure if it's worth the price difference.


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

Quote: 





anarion said:


> New drivers add ASIO support indeed.
> 
> It's proper multi-client ASIO driver like with X-Fi. This is truly strong product line now. I was using ASIO out in Foobar and Cubase 6 64-bit.


 
   
  Great move for once Creative, seems like they are really trying with this latest Z series.
   
  I've still got trouble to decide, ZxR vs Z? The price difference is so huge and I'm only interested in the higher quality DAC and caps and I don't even plan to use the ACM module and I don't think I will be using the additional outputs on the extra card. I do plan to use soundcard as my source for quite some time though and why not get among the better options while I am at it. Probably talking about a 3-5 year investment here so $250 may not be that bad instead of getting a lower tier option. 
   
  I do even master a lot of hardstyle tracks for newcomers so I guess I'd also do all those a favor in getting some slightly higher quality stuff. 
   
  Does any1 know anything about amping used on the ZxR card? How it holds up and what kind of sound signature etc.


----------



## apav

Quote: 





rpgwizard said:


> Great move for once Creative, seems like they are really trying with this latest Z series.
> 
> I've still got trouble to decide, ZxR vs Z? The price difference is so huge and I'm only interested in the higher quality DAC and caps and I don't even plan to use the ACM module and I don't think I will be using the additional outputs on the extra card. I do plan to use soundcard as my source for quite some time though and why not get among the better options while I am at it. Probably talking about a 3-5 year investment here so $250 may not be that bad instead of getting a lower tier option.
> 
> ...


 
  Well, I know that the the ZxR uses the TI TPA6120 just like the Asus Essence line does. So it will definitely drive my headphones better. I don't know if what I will hear (in terms of sound quality) will be better though. The difference has been already amazing coming from onboard audio.


----------



## Sierra419

What about for gaming? The Zxr vs Z? Or even the Zxr vs TiHD?


----------



## Anarion

sierra419 said:


> What about for gaming? The Zxr vs Z? Or even the Zxr vs TiHD?


All Z-series cards have identical gaming features.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Am I the only one here who doesn't seem to find this driver update?  I tried auto update and even checking the creative site
   
*EDIT:  Nevermind I found them on the site *


----------



## benbenkr

Quote: 





shredzy said:


> I really cannot decide between the Zx and the ZxR....the price difference here is $130, I won't be using the daughter board. Play games and love listening to music (currently have a Essence STX and Denon 2K's).....it seems the price difference is due to the daughter board? Is the DAC on the ZxR that much better then the Zx? I'm willing to spend the extra but if its not worth it....then no thanks.


 
  You already have a STX? Then why bother moving to a Zx (which will be a downgrade) or a ZxR which would be a sidegrade?
  You're not going to get better sound quality by going either Zx or ZxR, different sound yes (which you can just adjust to your preference with a good EQ)... but better? no. Not especially when you have to splurge $150/$250 for a new card. 
   
   
  Quote: 





apav said:


> Will I be able to hear the difference between my current ZX and the ZXR? I use Beyerdynamic DT 990 Pro 250 Ohm headphones. I might want to get a ZXR when they become available, but I have no need for the daughterboard and I'm not sure if it's worth the price difference.


 
   
  Yes you might be able to hear a difference, but is the difference worth a $100? No. Just stick with your Zx unless money isn't really a term to you.


----------



## shredzy

Quote: 





benbenkr said:


> You already have a STX? Then why bother moving to a Zx (which will be a downgrade) or a ZxR which would be a sidegrade?
> You're not going to get better sound quality by going either Zx or ZxR, different sound yes (which you can just adjust to your preference with a good EQ)... but better? no. Not especially when you have to splurge $150/$250 for a new card.
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Really only wanted to try something different because I do game competitively and the positional audio on the STX isn't to great. Something new to try after 2 years of having the STX anyways!


----------



## DJINFERNO806

benbenkr said:


> You already have a STX? Then why bother moving to a Zx (which will be a downgrade) or a ZxR which would be a sidegrade?
> You're not going to get better sound quality by going either Zx or ZxR, different sound yes (which you can just adjust to your preference with a good EQ)... but better? no. Not especially when you have to splurge $150/$250 for a new card.
> 
> 
> ...




I owned an stx and I sold it and bought a Z. Apart from a small difference in audio quality I'm glad I made the move. Gaming wise it just makes sense.


----------



## AMDCrazy

Quote: 





shredzy said:


> I really cannot decide between the Zx and the ZxR....the price difference here is $130, I won't be using the daughter board. Play games and love listening to music (currently have a Essence STX and Denon 2K's).....it seems the price difference is due to the daughter board? Is the DAC on the ZxR that much better then the Zx? I'm willing to spend the extra but if its not worth it....then no thanks.


 

 I suggest to move to a DAC device rather than purchasing the ZxR board. You can use DAC device with USB input (and other input sources) with multiple sources in your life (laptop, desktop, DAP...) while you have to limit the use of ZxR in your desktop with PCI-E slot. And I bet that the sound quality of Creative ZxR is much better than a DAC at this price range. In my opinion, unless you Creative-addict, shouldn't spend too much for Creative (losing reputation from years to years). I used their products since 1996 with a set of Soundblaster 16bit and am using SB Z now, but really disappointed at what they did to their famous Soundblater brand name through years.


----------



## xeizo

The choice of a Creative-card over a DAC is for those quite interested in gaming sound, for those who only listens to music there are other options.
   
  But these new Soundblasters sounds reasonably good on music too.


----------



## spacemanspliff

The Z is a card which you should get primarily for its ability to produce outstanding gaming sound. I will say that I have not heard better gaming sound ever. The directional sound and detail of this card is amazing.
   
  If all you are doing is listening to music, I would always suggest an external usb dac/amp.
   
  The Z does well enough for music but does not impress me as superior to like priced external units.


----------



## Evshrug

I like my current Recon3D external USB device (it's most often attached to my Xbox), I'm excited for my income to start tomorrow (first payday from new job) so I can buy more PC gaming titles. For some reason, an ODAC I borrowed from a friend wouldn't work with my computer, but the Creative product does... I think I managed to delete my (hack) Mac's generic sound drivers, so I have had more luck when given drivers by the manufacturer. 

I'd like to get a Sound Blaster Z sometime in the near future, although the Titanium HD is quite attractive too when it drops to $110 on sale sometimes. I've read mostly great things about the Titanium HD, but CMSS hasn't worked as believably for my ears in any YouTube video sample as THX TruStudio Pro on my games. YouTube videos are suspect and may not compare to the real thing of course, but I don't want to waste $110.


----------



## BetaWolf

I'm curious as to why there aren't any in-depth reviews on the ZxR yet. The thing has been out for months. Everything I see is on Z and Zx. All I can find on the ZxR is stuff about the hardware... nothing about how it affects positional audio, soundstage, frequency response, sound reproduction, etc.


----------



## xeizo

Quote: 





betawolf said:


> I'm curious as to why there aren't any in-depth reviews on the ZxR yet. The thing has been out for months. Everything I see is on Z and Zx. All I can find on the ZxR is stuff about the hardware... nothing about how it affects positional audio, soundstage, frequency response, sound reproduction, etc.


 
   
  Well, gaming wise I don't expect the ZxR to be any better than the Z or the Zx. In essence the ZxR is a Z with audiophile and cineast features bolted on, a combination of Creative, Xonar STX and Xonar HDAV ....


----------



## Evshrug

What is cineast?


----------



## benbenkr

Quote: 





betawolf said:


> I'm curious as to why there aren't any in-depth reviews on the ZxR yet. The thing has been out for months. Everything I see is on Z and Zx. All I can find on the ZxR is stuff about the hardware... nothing about how it affects positional audio, soundstage, frequency response, sound reproduction, etc.


 
   
  It's technically been out for a few months, but it hasn't really gone on sale in a mass production like the Z/Zx until just a few weeks ago.
  There are plenty of regions which are only getting the SBZ series launch this month in fact.


----------



## xeizo

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> What is cineast?


 
   
  Movie lover ...


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

Don't know if this has been posted or not but it pretty much covers everything about the card (except the software side)
   





   
   
  On a sidenote, I finally got around to place a ZxR order. I've been struggling to decide whether to go Z or ZxR or maybe not upgrade or whatever but yea then I saw in my homecountry the card for 191 EUR which is a steal in this country since that's even lower than amazon.co.uk sells it for example (209€ which is quite standard EU pricing when compared to $249 USD). TBH I'm heavily surprised on that pricing in Finland, must be that GBP(£) have gotten weak since last time I ordered something.


----------



## Anarion

(nothing)


----------



## Evshrug

RPGWizard,
Someone did link or at least mention that video a few weeks back, bashed Ryan from Creative pretty hard too because he mixed up which part numbers were for the DAC or Opamp components, but I agree that overall the video was informative and a good overview. I wonder if Newegg orders could include a LE mystical unicorn  Please post a review on the settings and effects, and your opinion on sound and analysis on who you would recommend the card to?


----------



## Mumbles37

Wanted to bump this thread up and post some quick impressions of the ZxR I received last week.
   
  To keep it simple:  sounds gooooood.
   
  I was replacing a FiiO E10, which served its purpose for nearly a year and which itself replaced a Xonar STX.  I use Denon D5000s, my personal favorite can.
   
  For a little background, I was loving the STX but decided to ditch it for a FiiO after so many people around Head-fi were saying that the STX doesn't play nice with low impedance headphones like the Denons.  Plus, I wanted a physical volume control because the software dial was a pain to use in the middle of a game, movie, or when listening to music.  Got the E10, was pleased with it overall yet noticed that my sound quality took a hit--compared to the STX it was muddy at some middle frequencies and there was less instrument separation.  A lot of detail and warmth was lost as well.  The most annoying part of the E10 was that half of my songs, which are all in FLAC and I deemed to be good quality when I was using the STX, began to sound dull, quiet, lifeless, and tinny.  I would have said that the E10 was more analytical than the STX, but since I lost so much detail as well as warmth, I can only say that the E10 is plain inferior.
   
  So finally, the ZxR comes out with its ACM and I think "bingo!"  Glad I went for it.
   
  First, just like the STX, the ZxR puts out excellent sound for a computer audio solution.  Great detail, a somewhat warm signature, but full--really brought out the best in my D5000s.  ALL my sound library sounds great again--there are no longer those songs that I have to skip just because they sound terrible and lifeless.  I use Coldplay's Princess of China to test clarity and detail because it has many complex and competing melodies and sounds as well as a lead male and female voice.  I was relieved that again each sound was its own and there was no more garbled mess in the middle like there was when I listened to the exact same file with the E10.  I even feel like the previously-garbled mids opened up Rihanna's voice and made it more lively and clear.
   
  The most interesting thing for me about this all, and that I hope saves others a bit of cash is the compatibility of the STX and ZxR (which has most of the same internals as the STX) with low impedance headphones like the D5000s.  Though there is one catch, I'm happy to say that they work wonderfully together.  Some have said that the (now old) Denon line, with a 25-ohm impedance, were a bad match with high minimum impedance sources; the STX (and presumably the ZxR) do 10-ohms.  Luckily this does not seem to matter for more stable headphones such as the D5000s.
   
  Cheaper headphones may exhibit encroaching lower mids or a muddier sound when paired with such a high impedance source but higher quality ones seem absolutely fine.  And in my experience, the D5000s (and also the D2000s) sound much, much better on an STX or ZxR than they do from cheaper but better-paper-matched sources like the E10.  Don't hesitate to get a ZxR if you're using better-quality low-impedance cans.
   
  Rock on, ZxR!


----------



## turokrocks

Quote: 





mumbles37 said:


> Wanted to bump this thread up and post some quick impressions of the ZxR I received last week.
> 
> To keep it simple:  sounds gooooood.
> 
> ...


 
  Thanks for the heads-up.


----------



## MrFujisawa

Hi, would it be an upgrade for me going from an x-fi fatal1ty titanium either the Z/Zx or ZxR? I primarliy game so I'm wondering if the lack of hardware processing would make things better or worse.
   
  Thanks


----------



## BetaWolf

Thanks, Mumbles37! That's just the kind of review I was looking for.


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

Man I wish I could get my card shipped soon, there's not even an ETA mentioned when they will be in stock where I ordered from (said 5-10 days earlier).  Cheap as I am couldn't resist the price, now I'm regretting it. >_<


----------



## tigerdx619

My Budget Is 170$ 
 Suggest One Of These : 
 Essence STX
 Zx
 TiHD

 Mainly For Music And Movies
 Headphones : Didn't Choose Yet But I Think It Would Be HD598
 Speakers : Creative T6200 5.1 ( Not Very Excellent Ones )

 Mainly Listening To Rock , Blues ,, And Some Symphonic Metal

 Can't Exceed The Budget In Any Way ...
  
  I Woul Really Appreciate It If Anyone Could Help Me
  
  P.S The Sound card Mustn't Have 5.1 Outpot .... I Could Use My Old X-fi For That


----------



## Evshrug

Thanks Mumbles37!

Tigerdx619,
Do you think you can have both your old X-Fi card and a new one installed at the same time without running into driver conflicts and glitches?


----------



## tigerdx619

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Thanks Mumbles37!
> 
> Tigerdx619,
> Do you think you can have both your old X-Fi card and a new one installed at the same time without running into driver conflicts and glitches?


 
  If I Were Sure ... I Would Go For The TiHD Or STX
 But I Could Change To Some Decent 2.1 Speakers  ,,, Would I Still Need To Change Cable Every Time I Switch, In The Case Of STX or TiHD


----------



## Sierra419

I'm wonde





mrfujisawa said:


> Hi, would it be an upgrade for me going from an x-fi fatal1ty titanium either the Z/Zx or ZxR? I primarliy game so I'm wondering if the lack of hardware processing would make things better or worse.
> 
> Thanks



I'm wondering the exact same thing, except with a titanium HD instead of the fatality.


----------



## MrFujisawa

Quote: 





sierra419 said:


> I'm wonde
> I'm wondering the exact same thing, except with a titanium HD instead of the fatality.


 
  It seems like most games don't use hardware processing nowadays and you get the benefits of better sound quality. I've certainly noticed noise when using headphones and I move the mouse (not all the time, but sometimes, in games) and the shielding of the zxr is meant to fix that (im just trying to convince myself to get it)


----------



## Evshrug

I've been having awful "swimming" static from my motherboard audio, clearly apparent from even my $50 Sony computer speakers (from many years ago)!


----------



## CoryGillmore

Just took the plunge on a ZXR from Newegg about 30 minutes ago. They were out of stock since I first checked a few days ago but I got an email notification telling me they were back in stock. I'm replacing an X-Fi Fatality Ti card I've had for over 2 years now. It's done well paired with my RSA SR-71a and DT880 and MD Tributes. I'm hoping and expecting the ZXR to be even better. I'm also hoping and expecting that Creative have finally got their driver woes in check with this new line of cards...It's been a nightmare battling the drivers on my current card these 2 years.


----------



## Kenion

Quote: 





corygillmore said:


> Just took the plunge on a ZXR from Newegg about 30 minutes ago. They were out of stock since I first checked a few days ago but I got an email notification telling me they were back in stock. I'm replacing an X-Fi Fatality Ti card I've had for over 2 years now. It's done well paired with my RSA SR-71a and DT880 and MD Tributes. I'm hoping and expecting the ZXR to be even better. I'm also hoping and expecting that Creative have finally got their driver woes in check with this new line of cards...It's been a nightmare battling the drivers on my current card these 2 years.


 

 Great to hear.
  Please share your first impressions when you have tested your ZxR!


----------



## CoryGillmore

Quote: 





mrfujisawa said:


> Hi, would it be an upgrade for me going from an x-fi fatal1ty titanium either the Z/Zx or ZxR? I primarliy game so I'm wondering if the lack of hardware processing would make things better or worse.
> 
> Thanks


 

 I went from the Ti Fatality as well and just got my ZxR today..Hell yes it's an upgrade. Well as far as plugging headphones straight into the headphone out and listening to music it blows the Ti Fat out of the water. I can't really say anything for gaming as I'll just output a digital signal to my 5.1 receiver for that application. But this card powers my 250ohm DT880 so well that I'm not even gonna worry with using my SR-71a to amp it. I mean I'll try it but this thing sounds fantastic all by itself and I don't need to turn the volume knob past halfway with no gain enabled.
   
  The last 2 Creative products I bought were hit and miss but with the ZxR, I'd say Creative is back on top of its' game.


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

It sucks, this ZxR card is nowhere to be found here in my country atm and there's no availability at any of the importers either according to the contact person at the place I put an order on it... guess these Z series cards doing exceptionally well, the demand seems to be huge.
   
  I want the card damn it! xD Already waited 2 weeks+.


----------



## CoryGillmore

Quote: 





rpgwizard said:


> It sucks, this ZxR card is nowhere to be found here in my country atm and there's no availability at any of the importers either according to the contact person at the place I put an order on it... guess these Z series cards doing exceptionally well, the demand seems to be huge.
> 
> I want the card damn it! xD Already waited 2 weeks+.


 

 That sucks man. I went to not even knowing the card existed to owning it in less than 3 days lol. I live in the same city as a Newegg warehouse so I get 1 day shipping for the price of 4-7 day shipping. It'd be even better if I could just walk in and buy stuff but it's not a shopping center.


----------



## genclaymore

You could try and run under the parking garage door before it close and bring a shopping buggy with you, tho of course they will grab you by the shirt and throw you back out the door, Along with the shopping cart.


----------



## MrFujisawa

Quote: 





corygillmore said:


> I went from the Ti Fatality as well and just got my ZxR today..Hell yes it's an upgrade. Well as far as plugging headphones straight into the headphone out and listening to music it blows the Ti Fat out of the water. I can't really say anything for gaming as I'll just output a digital signal to my 5.1 receiver for that application. But this card powers my 250ohm DT880 so well that I'm not even gonna worry with using my SR-71a to amp it. I mean I'll try it but this thing sounds fantastic all by itself and I don't need to turn the volume knob past halfway with no gain enabled.
> 
> The last 2 Creative products I bought were hit and miss but with the ZxR, I'd say Creative is back on top of its' game.


 
  Great to hear, my sennheiser hd-595s were ok on the fatality but I'm sure the high quality headphone amp will make them sound even better.


----------



## Anarion

mrfujisawa said:


> Great to hear, my sennheiser hd-595s were ok on the fatality but I'm sure the high quality headphone amp will make them sound even better.


No way... There's zero improvement between the headphone amp and line out on Zx (except line out might even be tiny bit better). Headphone amp doesn't seem to amp these at all, volume is comparable and totally unusable loud at least in my case without ACM volume controller knob. These don't need amp, source must be pretty damn weak if it can't drive these. I'm not using the headphone out with these.


----------



## MrFujisawa

Quote: 





anarion said:


> No way... There's zero improvement between the headphone amp and line out on Zx (except line out might even be tiny bit better). Headphone amp doesn't seem to amp these at all, volume is comparable and totally unusable loud at least in my case without ACM volume controller knob. These don't need amp, source must be pretty damn weak if it can't drive these. I'm not using the headphone out with these.


 
  zxr we're talking about


----------



## Salamndar

Good day all, I came across these fine forums today seeking information and gaudiness, lately I have been taking extra care to my usual regarding audio.[size=16pt][/size]
I currently use Auzentech Hometheater Xfi card _( not recommended)_ with *Astro A40+MixAmp*. I have purchased the new* Sound blaster ZXR* _( still did not receive it)_ and was wonder which headphones do you think are good enough to really enjoy it.[size=16pt][/size]
 
I am mostly a gamer but lately have been demanding better audio experience from HD Movies and music.[size=16pt][/size]
 
So can you help this Audio noob, which Headphone to use with the ZXR for 300$?!?[size=16pt][/size]


----------



## Anarion

mrfujisawa said:


> zxr we're talking about


Even more so in that case.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





salamndar said:


> Good day all, I came across these fine forums today seeking information and gaudiness, lately I have been taking extra care to my usual regarding audio.[size=16pt][/size]
> I currently use Auzentech Hometheater Xfi card _( not recommended)_ with *Astro A40+MixAmp*. I have purchased the new* Sound blaster ZXR* _( still did not receive it)_ and was wonder which headphones do you think are good enough to really enjoy it.[size=16pt][/size]
> I am mostly a gamer but lately have been demanding better audio experience from HD Movies and music.[size=16pt][/size]
> So can you help this Audio noob, which Headphone to use with the ZXR for 300$?!?[size=16pt][/size]


 
   
  Whoa, back up a minute. You have an X-Fi HomeTheater HD card? What's wrong with it? Software? Hardware?
   
  It's also somewhat odd that you'd then pair up such a card to an Astro Mixamp; I guess you really favor Dolby Headphone over CMSS-3D Headphone to the point of using Dolby Digital Live output over S/PDIF (which still wouldn't justify such an expensive card), but if that were the case, you'd probably opt for a Xonar, Claro Halo, or some other C-Media card instead of the ZxR.
   
  As for what headphones to recommend...the issue with that question is that people are looking for different things in sound presentation. A lot of people crave bass and treble emphasis, while I don't want anything getting in the way of midrange, and especially vocals.
   
  Sure, there are several headphones with the soundstage and imaging needed for gaming, but the rest of the sound presentation runs the gamut between models, and the only way to be sure of what you want is to start auditioning. I mean, I didn't know I was such a vocalhead 'til I started comparing my Stax SR-Lambda to the later Stax SR-202 and HiFiMan HE-400 and realized what I was really looking for in a headphone. (And, no, you probably can't afford any of those without a budget increase.)


----------



## oqvist

Nice to see a real highend card from Creative. I use the X-fi Elite Pro since many years. I had the Asus Essence ST but felt the Elite Pro was the better DAC. 
  If my Elite Pro ever dies on me hopefully this is a worthy successor.


----------



## Salamndar

The reason why I hate the Auzentech Hometheater is because it makes the audio screwed up with cracks, pops, echo and noise at least once a day and requires rebooting the PC to work properly, but lately it has been doing so 4 or 5 times a day which kills any fun I am having with the PC.
   
  Regarding headphones, I can increase price to 400$, I can not audition headphones cause  I do not live in the USA nor europe, where I live there are limited resource regarding audio, maybe Sony, Yamaha, Sennheiser and few others but with limited range to chose from and 4 times the price!


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





salamndar said:


> The reason why I hate the Auzentech Hometheater is because it makes the audio screwed up with cracks, pops, echo and noise at least once a day and requires rebooting the PC to work properly, but lately it has been doing so 4 or 5 times a day which kills any fun I am having with the PC.
> 
> Regarding headphones, I can increase price to 400$, I can not audition headphones cause  I do not live in the USA nor europe, where I live there are limited resource regarding audio, maybe Sony, Yamaha, Sennheiser and few others but with limited range to chose from and 4 times the price!


 
   
  Seems like the usual driver quirks that never affect me for some reason...but have you tried this driver package? Works pretty well for my non-Titanium HD X-Fi cards.
   
  If you're not in the US or Europe, though, that does complicate things significantly in that I don't know the usual pricing for headphones in your area. In other words, something relatively low-end like the HD598 might saturate your budget for all I know. (And I'd get reamed on shipping and customs if I offered to buy that X-Fi HomeTheater HD...)


----------



## CoryGillmore

Quote: 





salamndar said:


> The reason why I hate the Auzentech Hometheater is because it makes the audio screwed up with cracks, pops, echo and noise at least once a day and requires rebooting the PC to work properly, but lately it has been doing so 4 or 5 times a day which kills any fun I am having with the PC.
> 
> Regarding headphones, I can increase price to 400$, I can not audition headphones cause  I do not live in the USA nor europe, where I live there are limited resource regarding audio, maybe Sony, Yamaha, Sennheiser and few others but with limited range to chose from and 4 times the price!


 

 I feel for you on the cracking and popping. Have you looked into DPC Latency? My computer just all of a sudden having latency issues last week and I couldn't for the life of me get it figured out.I finally got it narrowed down to my ethernet driver. But after using Wifi for a while and still getting the problems (although not quite as bad as ethernet) and updating every driver I could. But then I discovered completely by chance that it was Malwarebytes' website blocking feature. So stopped using Malwarebytes website blocking and have been happy ever since


----------



## Salamndar

Yes I have tried all drivers available including PAX drivers and no luck, I will be ordering online, so no problem on purchasing, but the problem is testing headphones that's why I need the advise of you guys 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.
   
  Regarding DPC latency, every thing is fine, I have no issue there.


----------



## Salamndar

Hmm Guys, what do you think about the HE-400?
   
  I mean 60% of the time on PC I will be gaming, 25% Movies " HD movies" and 15% Music.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





salamndar said:


> Hmm Guys, what do you think about the HE-400?
> 
> I mean 60% of the time on PC I will be gaming, 25% Movies " HD movies" and 15% Music.


 
   
  Great headphone if you want a "cinematic" experience in your games, with subwoofer-like bass when it's called for...but ONLY when it's called for.
   
  The midrange is a tad recessed in that vocals are a bit behind the bass and treble notes in music, but weirdly enough, the vocals don't totally suffer for it. It's actually quite versatile in terms of music that sounds good on it.
   
  I would recommend picking up the velour pads; they're what I auditioned them with (Mad Lust Envy's pretty outspoken on the preference for velour and how they improve the sound signature in the HE-400's case), and pretty comfortable to boot. And speaking of comfort, weight isn't a problem at all to me; it's reasonably comfortable to wear for long periods.


----------



## Evshrug

salamndar said:


> Hmm Guys, what do you think about the HE-400?
> 
> I mean 60% of the time on PC I will be gaming, 25% Movies " HD movies" and 15% Music.



It was a reasonably good headphone, I also tried it with velours. The bass was of good quality, detail and "sparkle" were there, but compared to the Q701 I am used to I felt like the midrange was sucked out, a Janis Joplin track I listened to didn't present her vocals well. It's a small thing though, and it might be a great headphone for you. Do you know what a "fun" V-shaped frequency response sounds like? The HE-400 were basically the best example of that sound that I've ever heard. But yeah, I prefer my AKG Q701, and I really hope to try a Beyerdynamic DT880 some day.

Still waffling on what card I want for myself, a Z-series card or X-Fi Titanium HD on sale. LoL


----------



## Salamndar

Hmm, so you prefer the AKG q701 over the HE-400! 
   
  How are they in Games? can they handle virtual 5.1 positioning? How is the Bass in them?
   
  They are much cheaper than the HE-400 so if they are as good then I'll get them.
   
  So it is HE-400 vs AKG Q701 on the ZXr, by the way how is the Amp on the ZXr?


----------



## Povell42

Just to chime in to express my disappointment with the Zx model's ACM.
   
  THE ACM DEGRADES THE SOUND QUALITY!
   
  I tested the sound coming out of the ACM versus plugging my headphones directly into the sound card and the difference is major. I actually used the sound card without the ACM for a week or so. As soon as I decided to use the ACM, I could immediately hear that it was worse...especially while using the surround sound feature.  It sound weaker and tinny.  With out the ACM things are much clearer and precise.  I had to play with the volume higher using the ACM as it seems to weaken the amps power. 
   
  Testing it while playing Black Ops 2...it was like night and day.  Without the AMC my gun shoots sound loud, fast and punchy.  Playing through the AMC the gun shoots are very much recessed and weak. 
   
  I actually thought my ACM was defective and Amazon sent me a replacement...just to be disappointed that the same issue existed with the new AMC.  I placed the replacement sound card in as well and even reinstalled all software and drivers......SAME ISSUE.
   
  I highly recommend the sound card itself (if you are plugging directly in to the sound card) but stick with the cheaper Z model that does not include the ACM. 
   
  Here is a link to my amazon review:
   
  http://www.amazon.com/Creative-Blaster-Gaming-Control-SB1506/product-reviews/B009XDWUCQ/ref=cm_cr_dp_qt_hist_three?ie=UTF8&filterBy=addThreeStar&showViewpoints=0


----------



## Povell42

Quote: 





povell42 said:


> Just to chime in to express my disappointment with the Zx model's ACM.
> 
> THE ACM DEGRADES THE SOUND QUALITY!
> 
> ...


 

 If you own the ACM and can test this for yourself, please let me know if you have the same issue. 
   
  It may be that I happened to get 2 defective AMCs in a row....and in that case....I would still stay away from the Zx models and save the $50 with the Z.


----------



## Salamndar

Really, the ACM is that bad ?!?!
   
  What about the ACM with the ZXr is it the same as the ZX model but with black color rather red?!?


----------



## CoryGillmore

Quote: 





salamndar said:


> Really, the ACM is that bad ?!?!
> 
> What about the ACM with the ZXr is it the same as the ZX model but with black color rather red?!?


 

 I have a ZxR and no issues here with the ACM. I find it quite handy actually lol


----------



## Povell42

Quote: 





salamndar said:


> Really, the ACM is that bad ?!?!
> 
> What about the ACM with the ZXr is it the same as the ZX model but with black color rather red?!?


 
   
  Yes, it is that bad....and I do not consider myself an audiophile really. Just someone looking for great sound. And I was shocked at the difference. I first played music that I had listened to many times without the ACM. I was not really looking for differences as I did not think there would be any. Immediately I was confused as to why my music sound funny.  I though maybe I had the EQ mixed up or something.  Like I said the surround sound feature suffers the most.  I usually do not listen to music with it on, but one particular song benefited from it and it sound pretty bad through the ACM.  I then plugged the headphone into the card and the problem was solved. 
   
  There is an extreme difference in audio quality while playing Black Ops 2.  Again Surround sound feature was turned on.
   
  I seriously thought it was defective.  Kinda shocked the second one was the same....as my first thoughts were.."how has no one else complained out this"  I searched the web and forums and could not find anyone else complaining out it.
   
  I can not speak for the ZXr version.


----------



## Povell42

Quote: 





corygillmore said:


> I have a ZxR and no issues here with the ACM. I find it quite handy actually lol


 
   
  So, have you tested it by plugging it into the back of the card and comparing during games/music?
   
  Do you have the surround sound feature on....as that was where I could tell the main difference in audio quality.
   
  If you own an FPS test it out and listen to your gun fire. It is night and day.


----------



## Salamndar

Quote: 





povell42 said:


> So, have you tested it by plugging it into the back of the card and comparing during games/music?
> 
> Do you have the surround sound feature on....as that was where I could tell the main difference in audio quality.
> 
> If you own an FPS test it out and listen to your gun fire. It is night and day.


 
  Valid Logic in this question, eager for an answer myself!


----------



## Evshrug

salamndar said:


> Hmm, so you prefer the AKG q701 over the HE-400!
> 
> How are they in Games? can they handle virtual 5.1 positioning? How is the Bass in them?
> 
> ...




The Q701s fare very well with the forms of virtual surround I've used (haven't tried a Z-series card yet), because it's detailed and has a wide soundstage. The soundstage of AKG's flagships are well-known to be some of the best, though sometimes I feel with virtual surround that the sides extend more than front/back cues. The depth of surround seems to improve with a better amp tho... No necessarily more powerful (tho that may contribute), but a high-quality amp. I think the tone of my tube amp emphasizes the soundstage and seems to even out the soundstage "shape." Definitely better soundstage than the HE-400. The bass isn't boosted (much), but it has pretty fair extension into sub-bass ranges, while the treble is also extended and very detailed. Mids are, indeed, pretty great IMO, especially with the liquid quality from my tube amp. Where sometimes my older AD700 would sound "thin" or airy of body, there is a more solid sense to each note with the Q701, and I find them very involving with the music. The thing I didn't like about the Q701, though, was the headband bumps are firmer than expected and would kinda "dent" and irritate my scalp after 30-40 minutes, but I wrapped the headband in a baby seatbelt cover and now I often wear my headphones for gaming and music for 5 hours at a time.

Even before I got a dedicated amp though, I had moments where I'd put music on to critically analyze the sound character of the headphones, but then I'd notice my feet were tapping, and after a while I'd give up and just let the songs play out in full. The Q701's fit "my" taste very well, even though I thought they cost more than I needed to spend. YMMV, but there are many other opinions & reviews on the Q701 out there 


Povell42,
I haven't tried the ACM, but I assumed it would have a small negative effect. It's not an amp, just a thing (like what I believe is called an L-Pad?) that adds resistance and cuts down the gain as you adjust volume. For some, the convenience will have a much larger impact than sound degradation. I'm sorry, I'd planned on using an external amp for volume control anyway, rarely do I get a chance to chat with someone on a computer, so I don't think I would use an ACM much anyway. Do you have the computer's volume all the way up, and just try to cut the volume by turning down the module?


----------



## Povell42

Evshrug:  I did have the volume on the PC all the way up.  I could tell that the ACM was effecting volume levels because without it i could not turn the volume all the way up without without killing my ears....never made it to 100%. 
   
  But, with the ACM I could.  PC and AMC volume 100%.  I was loud, but doable .


----------



## Evshrug

Povell,
Wish I could make more suggestions and just know the scientific explanation, but alas I lack the knowledge. Thanks for sharing your info though! Hopefully you figure it out one day? Hoppy Easter, btw :3


----------



## Povell42

Quote: 





salamndar said:


> Hmm, so you prefer the AKG q701 over the HE-400!
> 
> How are they in Games? can they handle virtual 5.1 positioning? How is the Bass in them?
> 
> ...


 
   
  I have used both the Q701 and Dt990 pro with the Zx for gaming virtual surround.  They both sound very good. I decided to test them with a bargain buy - the Superlux HD668b.
   
  To be honest, I returned both the Dt990 and the Q701 because I could not justify the price difference. The superlux was almost a combination of the two. (sound wise)
   
  Q701 - after listening to both the DT990 pro and Superlux, I wished the Q701 had a bit more bass and it would have won.  As far as sound stage and positional ques (in gaming) it was very good! mids and highs is where it shines.  (not as large of a sound stage as the AD700 which I have tested as well - even less bass the Q701)
   
  DT990 pro - Had the bass I like for gaming but is more V shaped and recessed the mids - compared to the Q701.  It is a very popular gaming headphone and pleases the crowds. 
   
  Superlux -  A little less bass then the Dt990 but had a little stronger mids and kept the bright, clear highs.   Slightly less V shaped compared to the DT990  (by V shaped I mean the frequency response is V shaped)
   
  Now this is only in regards to sound quality.  The Superlux suprised me.  While the more expensive headphones did better than the Superlux in their strenghths....the superlux combined the two well. And for $50 - I was like so long more expensive headphones.    
   
  Build Quality and Comfort wise the Superlux came in last.


----------



## Salamndar

Quote: 





povell42 said:


> I have used both the Q701 and Dt990 pro with the Zx for gaming virtual surround.  They both sound very good. I decided to test them with a bargain buy - the Superlux HD668b.
> 
> To be honest, I returned both the Dt990 and the Q701 because I could not justify the price difference. The superlux was almost a combination of the two. (sound wise)
> 
> ...


 
  Awesome experience you have there m8, alas build quality and comfort are important to me since I will be using them over long long sessions and abuse them.


----------



## Povell42

Quote: 





salamndar said:


> Awesome experience you have there m8, alas build quality and comfort are important to me since I will be using them over long long sessions and abuse them.


 
   

 In that case, I would probably be tempted to go for the HE-400.  Mad Lust Envy's Gaming Guide forum praised them for a very fun with great natural bass, but kept the positional ques for competitive gaming.   
   
  Link:    http://www.head-fi.org/t/534479/mad-lust-envys-headphone-gaming-guide-updated-3-11-13-lcd2-entry-updated
   
  I did like the Q701 a lot....and if i was going for a music headphone to fit my music style, I would have kept them....but for gaming I really wanted more bass for an immersive and fun factor.   When I first started looking for a gaming headphone, I though I wanted something more balanced and natural.  But I have been discovering that while I get good clean sound in gaming, I want something a little more exaggerated and fun. 
   
  I have actually done many hours of research on the web....and I have just purchased the Ultrasone Pro 900 and will get them on Tuesday.
   
  But if you think you want a more natural and balanced sound in gaming - the Q701 definitely fits that build.  The bass is still present and tight, just not as strong as  I wanted it.  And the Sound blaster Z card can drive them great IMO. 
   
  I have read on forums here that the AKG K702 anniversary edition has a little more bass than the Q701.  So, something to consider instead of the Q701.
   
  I just got so sick of searching forums and doing research one day...I just said, "screw it, I'm just going to buy all of them and see which one wins my money".
   
  Although I like the HD668b....they are not my perfect gaming hp.  I am still looking for that - hence the purchase of the Pro 900.


----------



## Kenion

The ACM is another piece in the analog signal chain. It will degrade the soundquality but I didn't expected to be so significant.
  It has it's own volume control that doesn't affect the source signal which can "dampen" the actual raw volume that is comming from the card.
   
  I would either plug the headphones into the card directly or (if the ACM is needed), turn the volume up to 100% in the ACM and just use it as a cable extension (+ the ability of having a mic built in).


----------



## uluaz

anyone have any experience/feedback on the ZxR driving the HE-400's? I currently own a ZxR and a pair of DT990 Pros, but plan on upgrading to the HE400's. just looking for feeback on if this sound card will sufficiently drive them


----------



## Evshrug

The HE-400 are easy to drive, easier than your DT990 Pros.


----------



## uluaz

good to know! I'm really loving the sound card so far. 

regarding the ACM, i have noticed no decrease in sound quality whatsoever with my beyeres by plugging them into the ACM as opposed to plugging them directly into the card.

also for those of you that are curious, here is a pic of the ZxR installed in my build - there is also a picture on my profile. Note that I do not use the daughterboard, because I currently have no need for it (if I ever do I can throw it right in) and I as stupid as it may sound, having it in slighly diminshes the aesthetics that I am going for - primarily because the flat cable is butt ugly. 

http://i.imgur.com/vlqJZHX.jpg


----------



## Kenion

Quote: 





uluaz said:


> good to know! I'm really loving the sound card so far.
> 
> regarding the ACM, i have noticed no decrease in sound quality whatsoever with my beyeres by plugging them into the ACM as opposed to plugging them directly into the card.
> 
> ...


 

 That all black-carbon fiber design looks really slick!
  Thanks for sharing that picture!


----------



## CoryGillmore

Quote: 





povell42 said:


> So, have you tested it by plugging it into the back of the card and comparing during games/music?
> 
> Do you have the surround sound feature on....as that was where I could tell the main difference in audio quality.
> 
> If you own an FPS test it out and listen to your gun fire. It is night and day.


 

 Ok I've done some more testing. Maybe it does degrade a bit. Not as much as you're experiencing though. There has to be a problem with your setup somewhere. Using the ACM and with the software volume turned to 100 (in the Creative control panel), I can't handle turning the volume on the ACM past about 40%.
   
  Although after testing without the ACM, I've decided to ditch it anyway (except for still using the mic, it's pretty sweet), because it's easier for me to adjust the volume with my keyboard since it's always in my lap. Now I can still use my keyboard to adjust volume while using the ACM too, but it takes longer as the increments aren't as big as with the keyboard alone. Plus it does make sense that the ACM would have a bit of a negative effect on SQ as it is more wires and more electronics in between the audio source and your ears. But I do believe you're having other issues of some sort cause like I said, I honestly can't hear much of a difference if any.


----------



## spacemanspliff

Quote: 





mrfujisawa said:


> Hi, would it be an upgrade for me going from an x-fi fatal1ty titanium either the Z/Zx or ZxR? I primarliy game so I'm wondering if the lack of hardware processing would make things better or worse.
> 
> Thanks


 
  That would be a yes. I had your sound card and even my simple Z model is better much less the ZxR. More of an improvement in gaming and movie sound than for music.


----------



## Povell42

Quote: 





corygillmore said:


> Ok I've done some more testing. Maybe it does degrade a bit. Not as much as you're experiencing though. There has to be a problem with your setup somewhere. Using the ACM and with the software volume turned to 100 (in the Creative control panel), I can't handle turning the volume on the ACM past about 40%.
> 
> Although after testing without the ACM, I've decided to ditch it anyway (except for still using the mic, it's pretty sweet), because it's easier for me to adjust the volume with my keyboard since it's always in my lap. Now I can still use my keyboard to adjust volume while using the ACM too, but it takes longer as the increments aren't as big as with the keyboard alone. Plus it does make sense that the ACM would have a bit of a negative effect on SQ as it is more wires and more electronics in between the audio source and your ears. But I do believe you're having other issues of some sort cause like I said, I honestly can't hear much of a difference if any.


 
   
  It could be something with my setup. But I have no issues with anything else and love the Sound Card itself with the Headphones plugged directly into the back.  I am currently using the Superlux HD668b headphone with it.  I am actually getting the Ultrasone Pro 900 in the mail tomorrow so I will test it with those, just to see if certain headphones emphasize the issue. 
   
  I am kinda frustrated that I seem to be the only one that is experiencing a more dramatic change in audio quality through the ACM -  and I have tested 2 of them with the same result.  I will test it further and check out more games as well just to make sure that it is not just black ops 2 that suffers from it so dramatically. But to me it seem like the surround sound effect is somehow affected by the ACM.
   
  I will agree that the mic is pretty good on it though.  It seems to be much better than the mic that came with the Z model.  I am definitely using it as a table top mic and a mic plug-in extension.


----------



## Evshrug

Well, the mic being good is something, at least. So far though, you've only experienced this with Black Ops 2? I don't know why that would be, though I wasn't planning on getting that game anyway


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





spacemanspliff said:


> That would be a yes. I had your sound card and even my simple Z model is better much less the ZxR. More of an improvement in gaming and movie sound than for music.


 
   
  I still have my doubts on that compared to the X-Fi line, to be honest...then again, you were never much of a fan of CMSS-3D Headphone, or even Game Mode on X-Fi cards in general.
   
  You even played BF2 in Audio Creation Mode, from what I recall, and that of all games is one I'd insist on running in Game Mode. (On top of that, BF2's maxed-out audio settings don't sound right on the Recon3D USB, as is plainly obvious with the added reverb to menu sounds, so I don't hold much hope for the Z-series with the same Sound Core3D architecture that uses the same software OpenAL renderer with its flaws.)
   
  Word is that Creative at least got their act together with the headphone amp section of the Z-series cards. That helps the value proposition for a lot of people.


----------



## Povell42

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Well, the mic being good is something, at least. So far though, you've only experienced this with Black Ops 2? I don't know why that would be, though I wasn't planning on getting that game anyway


 
   
  I first noticed it with my music, then I tested Black ops 2...and the difference was so dramatic. So I compared it again with music I had no question that the ACM was defective (or so I thought). So I stopped using it. Then when the replacement came i retested it with the same music and game because I had already heard it with the other ACM to see if it had the same issue. When it did, I was kinda frustrated and just stopped using it again.
   
  I am pretty confident that the sound quality will be degraded in any game...
   
  But up till this point, I just have stopped using the ACM.  I am unable to test it out with other games tonight. But I will most likely tomorrow.  I am getting the Ultrasone Pro 900 delivered to me and I am interested to see if they emphasize the audio change as much as my HD668b.  It may be that my Superlux HD668b is extra sensitive to the audio difference due to frequency response?  I do not know yet.   I will let you know when I come to a conclusion and further investigate the issue.


----------



## Anarion

corygillmore said:


> Ok I've done some more testing. Maybe it does degrade a bit. Not as much as you're experiencing though. There has to be a problem with your setup somewhere. Using the ACM and with the software volume turned to 100 (in the Creative control panel), I can't handle turning the volume on the ACM past about 40%.
> 
> Although after testing without the ACM, I've decided to ditch it anyway (except for still using the mic, it's pretty sweet), because it's easier for me to adjust the volume with my keyboard since it's always in my lap. Now I can still use my keyboard to adjust volume while using the ACM too, but it takes longer as the increments aren't as big as with the keyboard alone. Plus it does make sense that the ACM would have a bit of a negative effect on SQ as it is more wires and more electronics in between the audio source and your ears. But I do believe you're having other issues of some sort cause like I said, I honestly can't hear much of a difference if any.


I have to turn the volume to 10% and then keep the knob around the letter e in volume (so around 2/3) if I want to keep my hearing - that's with using line-out. Plugging it directly to the card is, well, unusable to me (just too loud; also I can't spot any degrade in audio quality when using ACM).

I'm not that impressed about the mic to be honest. Sound is unclear and it tends to amplify computer fan noise x10. Also I need to speak really loud. I could be just Steam though...


----------



## Povell42

Quote: 





anarion said:


> I have to turn the volume to 10% and then keep the knob around the letter e in volume (so around 2/3) if I want to keep my hearing - that's with using line-out. Plugging it directly to the card is, well, unusable to me (just too loud; also I can't spot any degrade in audio quality when using ACM).
> 
> I'm not that impressed about the mic to be honest. Sound is unclear and it tends to amplify computer fan noise x10. Also I need to speak really loud. I could be just Steam though...


 

 Every headphone will act different to the volume level.  The reason I even brought up volume level was for a comparison of volume difference between the ACM and directly  plugging headphones into the sound card.  I did not mean that turning it up all the way was not loud....it was very loud and above normal listening levels. But it had less volume plugged into the ACM versus the card directly.
   
  I was just giving evidence that the ACM dampens the amps power a little bit.
   
  That was not my main concern with the ACM though. The sound degradation is what shocked me.


----------



## Kenion

Quote: 





povell42 said:


> I first noticed it with my music, then I tested Black ops 2...and the difference was so dramatic. So I compared it again with music I had no question that the ACM was defective (or so I thought). So I stopped using it. Then when the replacement came i retested it with the same music and game because I had already heard it with the other ACM to see if it had the same issue. When it did, I was kinda frustrated and just stopped using it again.
> 
> I am pretty confident that the sound quality will be degraded in any game...
> 
> But up till this point, I just have stopped using the ACM.  I am unable to test it out with other games tonight. But I will most likely tomorrow.  I am getting the Ultrasone Pro 900 delivered to me and I am interested to see if they emphasize the audio change as much as my HD668b.  It may be that my Superlux HD668b is extra sensitive to the audio difference due to frequency response?  I do not know yet.   I will let you know when I come to a conclusion and further investigate the issue.


 

 The Ultrasone Pro 900 is a great headphone! I'm sure you will be having a lot of fun with it =)


----------



## Anarion

povell42 said:


> Every headphone will act different to the volume level.  The reason I even brought up volume level was for a comparison of volume difference between the ACM and directly  plugging headphones into the sound card.  I did not mean that turning it up all the way was not loud....it was very loud and above normal listening levels. But it had less volume plugged into the ACM versus the card directly.
> 
> I was just giving evidence that the ACM dampens the amps power a little bit.
> 
> That was not my main concern with the ACM though. The sound degradation is what shocked me.


Of course and it makes me hope that I had less sensitive headphones. I have not noticed degradation but if it somehow lowers the power, then I guess it's quite possible for headphones that really need it.


----------



## BetaWolf

Lowers the power? Unless the potentiometer doesn't go full scale, you should get exactly the same amount of volume from having it turned to max as you would having your cans plugged directly into the sound card. The ACM leads will only add impedance in the milliohms or low single digit ohms.


----------



## CoryGillmore

Can someone please explain to me how to connect my RSA SR-71a portable amplifier to my ZxR using a 3.5mm cable? Cause I can't get it to work..Worked fine on my X-Fi Fatality Ti. Not that I need it on the ZxR but I'd still like to try it out, ya know?
   
  EDIT: Nevermind I think I got it. I'm using the RCA to 3.5 adapter to connect the card to the amp. Then instead of the headphone setting in the Creative control panel , I set it to speakers and stereo. That gets audio to the amp. Although after testing, I don't see (hear) a need for it with my 250ohm DT880.


----------



## turokrocks

What a nice package....directly from Japan....best seller ever!


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

I lost count how many days I've waited for my card to get shipped, probably around 3 weeks. waaaaaaahh T_T


----------



## Kenion

Quote: 





turokrocks said:


> What a nice package....directly from Japan....best seller ever!


 
   
  Congrats on your ZxR my friend! hehe!
  Don't forget to share your impressions


----------



## turokrocks

Quote: 





kenion said:


> Congrats on your ZxR my friend! hehe!
> Don't forget to share your impressions


 
  Got to find time to install it tonight.....Thanks...


----------



## turokrocks

What is the best configuration to connect the ZXR to my ASUS xonar one?
   
  ZXR->Asus (using Toslink, can I connect it using COA and is it better? edit: No there is no COA in the ZXR)
   
  Jriver18 =Wasapi-event style->spdif->source bit & # channels .
   
  Do you think there are better options?
   
  P.S : kept the ACM in the box...


----------



## turokrocks

RIP my XFI Platinum, you have been wonderful.
  but you will live in my 3Dfx voodoo P4 pc

   
   
  A side note.
   
  I just thru my working Recon sound card in the trash...I do not know why I got it in the first place.
  Worst sound card ever...

   
  The ZXR blew both, the clarity and cleanness of the sound is like nothing...the bass is much more prominent but controlled.


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

I can't wait to get the hold of my card, I think this will finally be "THE" soundcard for me (I need a soundcard for various reasons).


----------



## turokrocks

Is this a limitation from the ZXR or Asus Xonar one?
   
   

  My settings:


----------



## Kenion

Quote: 





turokrocks said:


> Is this a limitation from the ZXR or Asus Xonar one?
> 
> 
> 
> My settings:


 

 It is because the digital output of the soundcard "only" supports a sample rate up to 96khz. Thats normal, my X-Fi works the same way.
  What I want to try to do, as soon as I get my ZxR, I will connect the ZxR through toslink to my E1 and then back to the RCA-IN into the card using the RCA-OUT from the E1 and connect the headphones to the ZXR directly. Just for a test. I really want to know if there is any noticable delay and noise using this method.
   
  Because, actually your card is doing nothing when using SPDIF through the digital out. All the processing is done by the E1. But you'll get the advantage of the cards DSP (effects,EQ and so on).
  Thats also how I got my setup right now.


----------



## turokrocks

Quote: 





kenion said:


> It is because the digital output of the soundcard "only" supports a sample rate up to 96khz. Thats normal, my X-Fi works the same way.
> What I want to try to do, as soon as I get my ZxR, I will connect the ZxR through toslink to my E1 and then back to the RCA-IN into the card using the RCA-OUT from the E1 and connect the headphones to the ZXR directly. Just for a test. I really want to know if there is any noticable delay and noise using this method.
> 
> Because, actually your card is doing nothing when using SPDIF through the digital out. All the processing is done by the E1. But you'll get the advantage of the cards DSP (effects,EQ and so on).
> Thats also how I got my setup right now.


 
  OK, now I see, thank you.
  I will also test your "method"" today (just for curiosity sake).


----------



## Radical_53

I still don't really get why one would get a (really expensive) card only for its DSP effects? 
   
  I might have missed this earlier but has anyone played around with opamps already? Some of the new features sound interesting and nice but I wouldn't want to risk getting "worse" hardware than what I have now (Titanium HD with discrete opamps).


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





turokrocks said:


> RIP my XFI Platinum, you have been wonderful.
> but you will live in my 3Dfx voodoo P4 pc


 
   
  You imported that ZxR from Japan? Didn't think people would go to such lengths here...though if I had to import a sound card from Japan and cost wasn't an issue, I'd consider it for the Onkyo SE-300PCIE.
   
  X-Fi hardware seems like overkill for a 3dfx-based build, though. The OS I'd generally run for a 3dfx-based system is Windows 98 SE, and I'd most likely run some kind of Aureal Vortex2 card in that case. Also, Win9x drivers don't exist for the X-Fi line, to my knowledge.
   
  If running XP, then Win9x-era games start having issues, and most titles had moved away from Glide on to Direct3D and OpenGL by that point, in no small part because 3dfx had already been bought out by NVIDIA then.
   
  Quote: 





kenion said:


> Because, actually your card is doing nothing when using SPDIF through the digital out. All the processing is done by the E1. But you'll get the advantage of the cards DSP (effects,EQ and so on).
> Thats also how I got my setup right now.


 
   
  To phrase it more clearly, when using S/PDIF, the sound card's DAC is being bypassed, and the external DAC that you've connected it to does the digital-to-analog dirty work...but the source signal has still been pre-processed by any DSP effects enabled by the sound card itself.


----------



## turokrocks

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> You imported that ZxR from Japan? Didn't think people would go to such lengths here...though if I had to import a sound card from Japan and cost wasn't an issue, I'd consider it for the Onkyo SE-300PCIE.
> 
> X-Fi hardware seems like overkill for a 3dfx-based build, though. The OS I'd generally run for a 3dfx-based system is Windows 98 SE, and I'd most likely run some kind of Aureal Vortex2 card in that case. Also, Win9x drivers don't exist for the X-Fi line, to my knowledge.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Thank you for the reply...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  Why do you think the Onkyo 300PCIE is a better option than the ZXR? I have been doing some research and did no like what I read about it (drivers)!
   
   I know RPGWiZaRD have been eyeing the Onkyo for some time also, why did you prefer the ZXR over it?
   
   
  I am still hoping that I might get it working on windows 98se (I was able to run it as SB16 on Virtual W98se, by downloading a driver sbw9xup.exe)...
   
  The Onkyo is a nice card but believe me when Is say buying my stuff from Japan or US (including the shipping charges) will still be cheaper than buying from here (and that if they ever get it!), and I could not wait a single day living with the Recon....
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
   
  Please keep your posts coming.
   
  Edit : I might get the Onkyo (same seller got it also)...for my Brother's coming birthday, and sure will ask him to test it for him...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...ZXR VS Onkyo


----------



## phrozenspite

I just got my ZXR in the mail, I can confirm what some others have said here.  I'm sorry I can't give a good description in audiophile terms but, the sound quality is definitely degraded by the little module.  The music was lacking any liveliness when i plugged into the ACM, but from the back of the sound card it's quite vibrant(I'm listening on HFI 780s, to various types of black, death, power and doom metal)


----------



## turokrocks

Quote: 





phrozenspite said:


> I just got my ZXR in the mail, I can confirm what some others have said here.  I'm sorry I can't give a good description in audiophile terms but, the sound quality is definitely degraded by the little module.  The music was lacking any liveliness when i plugged into the ACM, but from the back of the sound card it's quite vibrant(I'm listening on HFI 780s, to various types of black, death, power and doom metal)


 
   
  I confirm that the ACM do degrade the sound (muddy & less airy...) that is why I returned it back to the box.
   
  I am wondering why this is happening?
   
  Wish Creative would clarify this!
   
  Any theories guys?


----------



## CoryGillmore

I dunno I kinda think the ACM degradation is being heavily exaggerated...I kinda thought it made a difference myself but that coulda been me thinking it should make a difference and then me hearing a difference because of that mindset.


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

Quote: 





turokrocks said:


> I confirm that the ACM do degrade the sound (muddy & less airy...) that is why I returned it back to the box.
> 
> I am wondering why this is happening?
> 
> ...


 
   
  Sounds like an impedance increase from the volume pot is my best guess. I hear similar things comparing M-Audio Q40's crappy stock cable versus a FiiO bundled short stereo cable. To a much less extent but yea similar observations and the Q40 stock cable has noticably higher impedance than the FiiO one.


----------



## Povell42

Quote: 





turokrocks said:


> I confirm that the ACM do degrade the sound (muddy & less airy...) that is why I returned it back to the box.
> 
> I am wondering why this is happening?
> 
> ...


 
   
  Quote: 





phrozenspite said:


> I just got my ZXR in the mail, I can confirm what some others have said here.  I'm sorry I can't give a good description in audiophile terms but, the sound quality is definitely degraded by the little module.  The music was lacking any liveliness when i plugged into the ACM, but from the back of the sound card it's quite vibrant(I'm listening on HFI 780s, to various types of black, death, power and doom metal)


 
  Thank goodness Im not the only one that feel like this.  I searched all over and could not find anyone mention this problem.  I was hoping to bring this topic to light and for a minute there I thought I was crazy since no one else seemed to think the sound degradation was significant.  I can still tell a very significant difference.  Like I said in earlier posts...I thought my ACM was defective and was shocked when the second one sounded the exact same.   Thank you for posting these and keeping this problem in the light.  I really think Creative needs to address this issue.


----------



## SoFGR

how's the intergrated headamp guys ?  has any1 of you tried it with a really demanding pair yet? A friend of mine didn't like his  AKG K601 + xonar STX combo much, he said that he prefered using an external amplifier instead


----------



## turokrocks

Quote: 





sofgr said:


> how's the intergrated headamp guys ?  has any1 of you tried it with a really demanding pair yet? A friend of mine didn't like his  AKG K601 + xonar STX combo much, he said that he prefered using an external amplifier instead


 
  Hold tight...update coming tonight soon.....for the below with the ZXR:
   
  JH16pro
 JVC HA-FXZ 200
 Hifiman HE-500
 Beyerdynamic 770 pro LE
 Sennheiser 598
Sennheiser 25 originals
 Beyerdynamic DT 1350


----------



## CoryGillmore

turokrocks said:


> Hold tight...update coming tonight soon.....for the below with the ZXR:
> 
> JH16pro
> 
> ...




Looking forward to your impressions! I was really impressed with it paired with my DT880. But what do I really know...read my sig lol


----------



## Kenion

Quote: 





turokrocks said:


> OK, now I see, thank you.
> I will also test your "method"" today (just for curiosity sake).


 

 Let me know what you found out


----------



## neopac

Hi folks,
   
  ..needed my Musiland02 as an usb->spdif transport for my Livingroom, so i bought the zxr for my desktop rig. So far so good... i can chip in some first impressions..
   

 doesn´t include 3,5mm --> 6,3mm adapter, so if you plan to connect your headset directly, you should be prepared
 I´m pretty happy my zXr doesn´t glow red as i thought it would
  --

 Fresh out of the box, the sound is very unpleasing... takes about 30 minutes burn-in to settle, till it starts to shine
 Amp is very powerful, drives the Sennheiser PC360 with 25% of it´s power and also manages to amp the K701 adequate
 Surround and Crystalizer work very well ... i´m actually stunned about how good it works, even with HD-music
 Bass-Boost Option on the opposite is a piece of garbage --> degrades alot
 Mic sounds great, but as soon you try to use one of the echo/noise things you hear, that the used algorithms, are way to aggressive
  --

 If i need to describe the sound in a short sentence.. bloats shy notes to a big sounding Orchestra, without degrading it in any (recognizable) way
 Compared to the musiland02 it´s definitly an upgrade in clarity and soundstage
  --

 Played some rounds of BF3 and i´ve got to say that the positional audio is better than what i remember from the SB Recon USB .. i still need to tweak the settings because minor changes can turn it from "great" into a "joke".
 gonna play some other games on weekend, cause i feel like BF3 is not "state-of-the-art" in 3D positional cues.
   
  So far so good, after ~4-5 hours of usage i´m very happy with it.. i´ll go deeper on weekend and start opamp rolling ( got a full set of AD797brz (Dual/mono) waiting ) and try to do a comparison of the integrated amp with my biased Matrix M-Stage.


----------



## SoFGR

afaik there only 2  gain  settings on the ZxR control panel
   
  32ohm and 600ohm, you guys used mostly the second setting during your  test sessions i presume   
   
   
  Has any1 tried this card  on some good old  CoD2 yet ? 
   
  That  should really test both ALchemy and sbx pro studio surround functionality 
   
  Despite BF2's  being one of the very first games where i learned to  locate people by sound, cod2  SnD is still the most enjoyable way of doing it, especially when i was running win XP with x-fi cmss3d headphone enabled


----------



## turokrocks

Update:
   
  All I can say about the ZXR after 60-90 hours of play time, I am impressed (its not Asus one Muses, but Creative has made a wonderful card)
   (Jriver+Asio) +Beyerdynamic 770 pro LE=  ZXR was able to drive it (32ohm) with ease, but with many songs it sounded over Bass emphasized, which I did not like, and with others a bit flat....
   

   

  Hifiman HE-500= with 32ohm setting sounded good ...much better than I was expecting.
  It just had the natural sound of the 500 that I liked with added bass emphasis which made it sound better.
  But compared to the Assus E1, there are details missing. It sounded good, but not very good.
  Asus muses have the ability to make it sound moist and much more enjoyable to listen to (you just want to keep on listing  for hours) , compared to the ZXR which sounded "DRY".
  To put it simply, I will never use it for my Headphones , as long as I have the Asus muses!
   
  I can say (not to conclude), that as a dedicated Headphone dac/amp , there are better external options (similar in price) to the ZXR.
  It can drive Headphones, but how they sound is another story.
   
  To be continued......


----------



## neopac

Quote: 





turokrocks said:


> (Jriver+Asio) +Beyerdynamic 770 pro LE=  ZXR


 
   
  How did you get Asio running? ... tried to add the asio component to foobar but it didn`t show up in the output options... same thing with Asio4ALL... a short google told me that it´s not supported by the z-series.. is there some workaround i should know?
   
  cheers


----------



## turokrocks

Quote: 





neopac said:


> How did you get Asio running? ... tried to add the asio component to foobar but it didn`t show up in the output options... same thing with Asio4ALL... a short google told me that it´s not supported by the z-series.. is there some workaround i should know?
> 
> cheers


 
   
   
  Weird, All what I did after installing the driver (My ZXR is made on 03/2013 so I got the latest driver with it ) is choosing the asio from the menu:


----------



## neopac

Quote: 





turokrocks said:


> Weird, All what I did after installing the driver (My ZXR is made on 03/2013 so I got the latest driver with it ) is choosing the asio from the menu:


 
   
  indeed.. tried JRiver and it works like you said, still no option in foobar
  thanks for your input
   
  cheers


----------



## turokrocks

New review:
   
http://www.custompcreview.com/reviews/creative-sound-blaster-zxr-review/17756/


----------



## turokrocks

New Driver:
  Dated 12/04/2013


----------



## neopac

got some spare time today, listened to different amp settings and started opamp rolling... let me share my experience...
  honeymoon is over but i´m still very pleased with my purchase... i was very wavering if i should buy the TitaniumHD at 50% of the zXrs Price or if I should get me the brand new Toy... i´ve never heard the TiHD, but from what i´ve read it´s also a first class card.. obvious, that the TiHD would be the smarter buy.
   
  well, looks like i´m not this smart...

   
  there was a time when i bought pretty much every audio opamp i could get my greedy hands on because it thought i would build THE diy amp, so i guess it would be a crime not to try them in the new card.. since installed opamps are generic as generic could be...
   

   
  the zXr uses JRC 2114D for the L/R and LME 49710NA for I/V ... i swapped them for AD797B (L/R) and AD797A (I/V) ... they are among ( if not THE ) my favorite opamps for pretty every audio application... i had these lying around, so i cramed them into the card.. 
   

   
  the effect was, as expected, very refining... but the first thing i´ve noticed, was that the stock setting produces allot more power then the 797 setup.. for the Senn PC360, i reached pleasant (loud) levels with 25% power stock, now i need to put the zXr slider to about 60% (32/300Ohm setting) to reach the "same" level. On the beneficial perspective, it took away alot of the harshness in the highs and gave more body to the lows. imo the 797 got a nice balance of detail and liquidity... there was a tiny bit of fatigue... that´s now gone. The improved detail combined with my critical attitude spoiled the soundblaster effects for me.. once you get used to the unaltered sound of this card, the effects get kind of of poor (still the bomb in games).
   
  before i bring in the "big guns" i tried to compare the integrated amp with something more similar in nature.. my beloved ibasso which amps mostly my ipad ( LT1028CN8 I/V / BUF634 / AudioGD Earth ). It produces more volume than the zXr but is on the same level in authority concerns (K701). AudioGD Earth matches beautifuly with the Ultrasone Pro900 ( less low, more high ) when connected to the ipads lineout but i soon feel a tad of fatigue when connected to the zXr. to much detail i guess, i prefer the more mellow sound of the soundcard at this point... though i liked both, that´s for sure...
   

   
  When i connected my Matrix M-Stage ( 627 Class A ) to the soundcard, i started with the AKG K701 and knew what would happen... every note i´ve heard several times before this day, sounded more refined and complete. The zXr handles the PC360 / Pro900 / IEMs so well, that i wouldn´t declare an external amp as necessary... but you would need one if you plan to use phones known for requiring a *real* amp.
   

   
  in a nutshell... i think that the zXr is exactly what i´ve wanted... i play alot of games to cool down and wanted that my computer sounds just as neat as my other stuff, without to much effort and external things ( i like it clean and tidy )... The opamp swap is definitely (positive) audible but not a must have because it sounds great stock... combined with the Sennheiser PC360 i´m very happy connected directly to the card.
   
  so happy it doesn´t glow..

   
  cheers


----------



## Kenion

Quote: 





neopac said:


> got some spare time today, listened to different amp settings and started opamp rolling... let me share my experience...
> honeymoon is over but i´m still very pleased with my purchase... i was very wavering if i should buy the TitaniumHD at 50% of the zXrs Price or if I should get me the brand new Toy... i´ve never heard the TiHD, but from what i´ve read it´s also i first class card.. obvious, that the TiHD would be the smarter buy.
> 
> well, looks like i´m not this smart...
> ...


 
   
   
  Thanks a lot for your review neopac!
  Glad to see you have also tried some opamp rolling on these.
  I think this might help some people with their decision.
   
  Awesome pictures as well and nice rig you got there too!


----------



## turokrocks

@*neopac*
   
  Thank you for sharing.
  What is your PC case?


----------



## Anarion

turokrocks said:


> New Driver:
> Dated 12/04/2013


Going to install.


----------



## Anarion

Hmmm.... I think there's some kind of issue with the headphone out in this driver. If I use headphone out, flash content (for some very weird reason) is incredibly loud, unusable. If I use html5 youtube, sound level is fine. Line out is fine in flash too. Can anyone else confirm this issue? Latest drivers, Windows 8, Zx + HD 595.

Also I'm getting quite a bit of time outs when seeking or switching track in Foobar when using ASIO (though this I had before too).


----------



## Kenion

Quote: 





turokrocks said:


> @*neopac*
> 
> Thank you for sharing.
> What is your PC case?


 

 Should be a Corsair Graphite 600T if I'm not mistaken.


----------



## kupco

Hey guys a quick question. 
  I'm currently running my DT990's out of the Soundblaster Z via the dedicated headphone out so that they're amped. I'm trying to figure out if a dedicated amp would add to the sound quality. So my question is: if I connect the headphones through the Line Out 1 jack (Front L/R) on the soundcard to a dedicated amp will I be able to use the virtual surround (SBX studio pro) features? When connecting the headphones via the Line Out jack the only way to get sound is to switch to speakers in the soundcard settings. I'm reading in the manual that:
   


> Stereo Direct is an option for direct playback to stereo speaker channel sampled at 192kHz. The
> following features will not be applied to this playback:
> - SBX Pro Studio suite of audio enhancements
> - DTS Connect
> ...


 
  I'm worried that what I'm about to do would qualify as Stereo Direct and I would loose the virtual surround for gaming and music. 
  Does anyone know how this works?
  Thanks.


----------



## neopac

Quote: 





kupco said:


> So my question is: if I connect the headphones through the Line Out 1 jack (Front L/R) on the soundcard to a dedicated amp will I be able to use the virtual surround (SBX studio pro) features? When connecting the headphones via the Line Out jack the only way to get sound is to switch to speakers in the soundcard settings. I'm reading in the manual that:
> 
> I'm worried that what I'm about to do would qualify as Stereo Direct and I would loose the virtual surround for gaming and music.


 
   
  mhmm.. don´t you have two settings? "stereo" and "stereo direct".. first one includes the SBX and the second bypasses it..
   
  cheers


----------



## neopac

Quote: 





kenion said:


> Should be a Corsair Graphite 600T if I'm not mistaken.


 
   
  correct.


----------



## kupco

Quote: 





neopac said:


> mhmm.. don´t you have two settings? "stereo" and "stereo direct".. first one includes the SBX and the second bypasses it..
> 
> cheers


 
  Ha, did not see that. Will  have to check out when I'm home. Thanks for the info.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Sorry for the belated reply...it's been a while since I frequented Head-Fi!
   
  Quote: 





turokrocks said:


> Thank you for the reply...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  The SE-300PCIE has an actual X-Fi EMU20k2 in it, not the Sound Core3D. My preference for true X-Fi hardware and CMSS-3D Headphone, for a number of reasons, is well-known by this point, and the SE-300PCIE could possibly be the X-Fi card to rule them all...if I could just get my hands on it!
   
  In the meantime, I can live with my Titanium HD, which is already a very competent card that I don't expect any significant improvement from. Maybe I'm just hoping that the SE-300PCIE has its analog output quality or better, while also having an extension card for analog 7.1 output if necessary.
   
  As for RPGWiZaRD, I recall that he has a distaste for CMSS-3D Headphone, presumably because he's a self-admitted basshead and CMSS-3D Headphone does dial down the bass a little (while Dolby Headphone boosts it a little, and he prefers DH by comparison), along with the general effect it has on the sound. He might like THX/SBX Pro Surround better. What I do know is that he liked his ol' Audigy 2 with the kX Project drivers best due to the kX Surrounder plugin, though I don't recall what happened with that setup to get him to stop using it.
   
  Of course, it would be better for him to post directly and clarify all of that instead of me trying to relay what I recall from his past posts in prior conversations...


----------



## ahm12

hi guys,
  I have beyerdynamics dt 990 (250 ohm)..
   
  right now i am using on board audio .. sound sucks . no bass etc..
  all i care about is music quality.. i have 100$ right now should i buy sound blaster z or save up more for the zxr ??
   
  i just want a card  that  can drive my dt 990 pro (music , bass pretty much)
   
  Thanks


----------



## CoryGillmore

ahm12 said:


> hi guys,
> I have beyerdynamics dt 990 (250 ohm)..
> 
> Someone here will probably tell you to get a cheaper card and an amp but I have the 250ohm DT880 and the ZxR drives it very well. I'd say save for a ZxR and be done.
> ...


----------



## genclaymore

Quote: 





ahm12 said:


> hi guys,
> I have beyerdynamics dt 990 (250 ohm)..
> 
> right now i am using on board audio .. sound sucks . no bass etc..
> ...


 
  You can get the Sound blaster Z off amazon for 80ish used Like new,.


----------



## ahm12

i bought the Z sound card.. made huge difference in sound..
   
  i am a bit dissapointed from the BASS response of dt-990pro(250ohm)
   
  i was hoping for better bass response. 
  i dont have any other over the ear headphone for comparison, the only other headphones i have is V-MODA vibe(in ear).. i was hoping for much better bass response compared to vibe but no.. DT 990 have  better bass but i was expecting the difference just like their price $40 vs $190.. 
   
  Dont get me wrong dt-990 pro sound much better than vibe's (over all quality) but its the bass thats a little dissapointing.


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

The SoundBlaster cards comes with a very nice EQ, I'd use that to boost bass to your needs (if it's the quantity that is the issue).


----------



## Povell42

Quote: 





kupco said:


> Hey guys a quick question.
> I'm currently running my DT990's out of the Soundblaster Z via the dedicated headphone out so that they're amped. I'm trying to figure out if a dedicated amp would add to the sound quality. So my question is: if I connect the headphones through the Line Out 1 jack (Front L/R) on the soundcard to a dedicated amp will I be able to use the virtual surround (SBX studio pro) features? When connecting the headphones via the Line Out jack the only way to get sound is to switch to speakers in the soundcard settings. I'm reading in the manual that:
> 
> I'm worried that what I'm about to do would qualify as Stereo Direct and I would loose the virtual surround for gaming and music.
> ...


 
   
  I think you will lose the surround sound effect and it will be in stereo.  But I guess I am not 100% sure.  Have you tested it out yet? Let me know if it works out as I have thought about getting an external amp but did not because I just assumed I would lose the virtual surround.


----------



## ahm12

In this video at 40 seconds, one can see it lets you select normal gain or high gain headphones, i dont see that option , is there any advance setting i am missing?? i cant find it ??


----------



## kupco

povell42 said:


> I think you will lose the surround sound effect and it will be in stereo.  But I guess I am not 100% sure.  Have you tested it out yet? Let me know if it works out as I have thought about getting an external amp but did not because I just assumed I would lose the virtual surround.




Actually it looks like you still have the option to use virtual surround after switching to speakers and connecting the headphones via line out. My Schiit Magni is coming on Monday, so I will test it then. You can test it yourself though simply by connecting your headphones via line out and enabling the virtual surround...

//edit: so I have just tested hooking up my DT990's to the line out and enabling the virtual surround. Unfortunately I have to say that the surround is no way as good as when the headphones are connected via the headphone out. I actually quite hated it. I'll see if I can hook up my Magni via the headphone out (not sure how double amping will work), but for gaming the virtual surround via headphone out is clearly superior to the one from line out.

//edit2: just read in this thread that you should not install speaker positional options when installing drivers to have line out sound best for virtual surround. Will try to reinstall my drivers tomorrow to see if there is any change...


----------



## Povell42

Quote: 





kupco said:


> //edit2: just read in this thread that you should not install speaker positional options when installing drivers to have line out sound best for virtual surround. Will try to reinstall my drivers tomorrow to see if there is any change...


 

 Nice. Let us know what you think.


----------



## naseemckhan

Hi guys I'm new here. I am considering getting soundblaster zx, theres something about the optical input i wanna know, i hope those who own the cards can help me out, is it possible to input the sound from my tv into the card and output to my speakers?


----------



## pmc64

Does the zxr use hardware openal or eax at all? How does it work?


----------



## turokrocks

Quote: 





naseemckhan said:


> Hi guys I'm new here. I am considering getting soundblaster zx, theres something about the optical input i wanna know, i hope those who own the cards can help me out, is it possible to input the sound from my tv into the card and output to my speakers?


 
  It should be an easy/straightforward process, as the ZXR (sister board) got in/out Toslink, so this should work.
  I see no reason for this not to work.


----------



## Povell42

Quote: 





naseemckhan said:


> Hi guys I'm new here. I am considering getting soundblaster zx, theres something about the optical input i wanna know, i hope those who own the cards can help me out, is it possible to input the sound from my tv into the card and output to my speakers?


 
   
  Yes. I have done this myself. I actually had my xbox hooked to my TV via HDMI and then used the optical out on my TV to connect to the Sound Blaster optical-in.
   
  You have to make sure that the audio going into the the sound card from you TV is in stereo.  It will not recognize Dolby Digital.  So for me I had to go into my xbox settings and disable the 5.1 sound option so it would send a stereo signal.  So whatever audio source you are using just make sure it is sending out stereo.
   
  You can use the the SBX software's surround sound option along with all the other adjustments such as bass boost and the equalizer. 
   
  I would suggest getting the Sound Blaster Z instead of the Zx. It is the exact same sound card. The only difference is the Audio Control Module (ACM) and the ACM degrades audio quality.  The Zx has a little better microphone built into the ACM....but it is not $50 worth for the price difference. 
   
  For more detail on the Zx model - I wrote a review on amazon.  Here is a link:  http://www.amazon.com/Creative-Blaster-Gaming-Control-SB1506/product-reviews/B009XDWUCQ/ref=cm_cr_dp_qt_hist_three?ie=UTF8&filterBy=addThreeStar&showViewpoints=0
   
  My user name is Povell42 on amazon as well.


----------



## turokrocks

Quote: 





povell42 said:


> Yes. I have done this myself. I actually had my xbox hooked to my TV via HDMI and then used the optical out on my TV to connect to the Sound Blaster optical-in.
> 
> You have to make sure that the audio going into the the sound card from you TV is in stereo.  It will not recognize Dolby Digital.  So for me I had to go into my xbox settings and disable the 5.1 sound option so it would send a stereo signal.  So whatever audio source you are using just make sure it is sending out stereo.
> 
> You can use the the SBX software's surround sound option along with all the other adjustments such as bass boost and the equalizer.


 
  So Dolby Digital is not supported by the ZXR , as stream?
   
  I understood that it is supported!!
   
   
  edit : http://www.dolby.com/us/en/consumer/technology/home-theater/dolby-digital-live.html
          http://www.soundblaster.com/products/sound-blaster-zxr.aspx#specs


----------



## Povell42

Quote: 





turokrocks said:


> So Dolby Digital is not supported by the ZXR , as stream?
> 
> I understood that it is supported!!


 
   
  It will output an encode Dolby Digital via optical-out. But if you hook up your TV....or any other source via optical-in to the sound card - it must be stereo.
   
  Simplified:
                         Optical input - only stereo is recognized
   
                         Optical output - you can tell it to either be stereo or encode it as Dobly digital. (this                  would be used to plug into a Dolby Digital 5.1 receiver which your speakers are hooked up to)
   
  So if you are plugging you TV into the sound card via the optical input - it needs to be in stereo and then you use the software for the sound card to make it surround sound.  (this is not dolby digital)
   
  If you take that signal via the optical output from the card, the card can encode that signal out as Dolby Digital.   This is useful for plugging it into a home audio receiver for Dolby Digital 5.1
   
  Does that make sense?


----------



## Povell42

Here is a link form creative about it.
   
  http://support.creative.com/kb/ShowArticle.aspx?sid=107680
   
   
  QUOTE:
   
  "The PCIe Sound Blaster Optical-In takes in only PCM audio and not the surround encoded signals like Dolby Digital and DTS. Please note that the sound card's drivers do not have the built-in decoder to decode signals coming from Dolby Digital and DTS. "
   
  "For gaming console such as the Xbox 360 and PlayStation3 connected to the Optical-In of the sound card, the audio settings have to be configured to run PCM Audio."
   
   
      So, the card can not *DECODE* the Dolby or DTS.   BUT,  it will *ENCODE* Dolby and DTS via optical output.


----------



## turokrocks

Quote: 





povell42 said:


> It will output an encode Dolby Digital via optical-out. But if you hook up your TV....or any other source via optical-in to the sound card - it must be stereo.
> 
> Simplified:
> Optical input - only stereo is recognized
> ...


 
  Thank you for explaining, so I need a card that "Decode (not encode only as per the ZXR) Dolby Digital", to get the optical input to recognize 5.1?


----------



## Povell42

Just to make it clear. This sound card processes its own 5.1 surround sound. Just like Dolby Digital and DTS are two different types of surround processing. So you will get 5.1 surround sound from you computer speakers. Just like it takes computer games and makes it 5.1 surround sound.
   
  The card does a very nice job in processing its own surround sound - heck, maybe even better then Dolby Digital.  Dolby Digital is not all that great......but it is the standard we have all come to know.
   
  The reason the sound card encodes Dolby Digital and DTS is so you can take your PC sound and plug it into a home theater receiver - and home theater receiver usually only understand and process those types of surround sound
   
  This sound card has its own processing power and has the software to set up a 5.1 system with speaker position as well and individual channel levels.
   
  This is the exact same for all Creatives sound cards including the ZxR model.
   
  This is a great sound card and I recommend it to you....even for the purpose you are using it for.  
   
  I do not know for sure but I am unaware of a PC input card that will read and recognize (decode) a Dolby or  DTS signal. 
   
   
  Does that make sense to you?


----------



## kupco

Ok, so after thoroughly testing the headphone out and line out on my Soundblaster Z, I can safely say, that the virtual surround via headphone out is clearly superior to the one from line out. When using the line out virtual surround I'm unable to distinguish between front and back sound and the sound feels a little bit like stereo (sound switching from right to left and the transition when turning around a sound source is not smooth). None of this is present via headphone out - sound source direction is easily identified and the sound truly feels like it's all around you.

Now I just wish Crewative wouldn't be stupid and enable the headphone setting also via line out, which is said to have superior sound quality in stereo and is unnamped (for those who have an external headphone amp). This is how it worked on my old Xtreme Gamer Fatality. I don't want to go back though as I feel the virtual surround on the Z is vastly superior to the cmss-3d to the Extreme Gamer Fatality.

Now next week I'll be testing how hooking up the Schiit Magni to the amped headphone out will sound with my DT990's and with the HD650's I'll hopefully buy on Monday. Will post back with my experiences...


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Quote: 





kupco said:


> Ok, so after thoroughly testing the headphone out and line out on my Soundblaster Z, I can safely say, that the virtual surround via headphone out is clearly superior to the one from line out. When using the line out virtual surround I'm unable to distinguish between front and back sound and the sound feels a little bit like stereo (sound switching from right to left and the transition when turning around a sound source is not smooth). None of this is present via headphone out - sound source direction is easily identified and the sound truly feels like it's all around you.
> 
> Now I just wish Crewative wouldn't be stupid and enable the headphone setting also via line out, which is said to have superior sound quality in stereo and is unnamped (for those who have an external headphone amp). This is how it worked on my old Xtreme Gamer Fatality. I don't want to go back though as I feel the virtual surround on the Z is vastly superior to the cmss-3d to the Extreme Gamer Fatality.
> 
> Now next week I'll be testing how hooking up the Schiit Magni to the amped headphone out will sound with my DT990's and with the HD650's I'll hopefully buy on Monday. Will post back with my experiences...


 
   
  Ofcourse the virtual surround through headphone out is superior.  It was made with HRTF as its primary function.  The line out is made to virtualize surround with external speakers in front of you.  Completely different audio cues and timing.


----------



## Anarion

ahm12 said:


> In this video at 40 seconds, one can see it lets you select normal gain or high gain headphones, i dont see that option , is there any advance setting i am missing?? i cant find it ??



That's only available for ZxR, AFAIK Z and Zx does it automatically (if not at all).



povell42 said:


> Yes. I have done this myself. I actually had my xbox hooked to my TV via HDMI and then used the optical out on my TV to connect to the Sound Blaster optical-in.
> 
> You have to make sure that the audio going into the the sound card from you TV is in stereo. It will not recognize Dolby Digital. So for me I had to go into my xbox settings and disable the 5.1 sound option so it would send a stereo signal. So whatever audio source you are using just make sure it is sending out stereo.
> 
> ...



I haven't heard any noticeable difference in audio quality when using ACM. If people plan to use this with sensitive headphones, be warned: HD 595's for example are pretty much unusable without ACM. But sure, if you can use it without it then by all means don't (no point using it). At least that way you eliminate one possible bottleneck.


----------



## Evshrug

turokrocks said:


> Thank you for explaining, so I need a card that "Decode (not encode only as per the ZXR) Dolby Digital", to get the optical input to recognize 5.1?



Just to add my own research on this issue... It's not a hardware limitation that keeps a soundcard from accepting a surround signal, it's actually a licensing thing. Turtle Beach's website has a FAQ describing the issue with their (now discontinued) sound cards. As far as I'm aware, NO PC soundcard can decode DDL input, except my Recon3D USB external surround processor could play surround from my Xbox and PC at the same time... But I think that was a (beneficial) glitch.

The Recon3D USB is meant to be used to process surround with either PC or with a console, so to work with consoles it has to decode DDL over Optical. You are meant to use a switch on the side to switch between Xbox (optical input), PS3 (optical input + USB mic), and PC modes (USB), but I forgot to switch modes once but Xbox audio still worked... I actually played Starcraft on my Mac with a friend and used my Xbox to chat with him and another friend at the same time (my voice chat is piped through "speakers"). Caveat: I think it sounded great, also THX surround processing worked great and had a greater sense if 3D imaging realism than Dolby Headphone has so far (I'm testing now), the signal was pretty noise-free for plugging straight into my AD700 or double amping with my Q701, *BUT it doesn't have as good Signal:Noise as a dedicated sound card, and I suspect the cards can improve on the audio quality in other ways as well.* I would not recommend the regular, internal Recon3D soundcards.

I thought I would upgrade and get a soundcard, but financially I haven't made that purchase yet, and I miss having it. I might ask NamelessPFG if I could buy his spare one.


----------



## pmc64

Quote: 





pmc64 said:


> Does the zxr use hardware openal or eax at all? How does it work?


 
  Anyone got an answer to this?


----------



## Evshrug

It does use OpenAL, but I think the SoundCore3D does it and EAX through "software." Uses ALchemy (get it?) to restore functionality in the new Operating Systems, and games with OpenAL support like Borderlands 2 (though it's a little hidden in that game) and I think Dishonored (because it's an Unreal Engine game).


----------



## pmc64

I didn't know it worked on borderlands 2. I just changed it. Dishonored uses Wwise. Most UE games seem to use that or xaudio2 now a days.


----------



## DWolff

Sorry if this has been covered in this thread (or another); I debated starting another thread on this question:
   
  Has anyone had any first-hand experience driving high-Ohm headphones with the SB ZX-R? Creative claims the card's amp capable of driving 600-Ohm cans but I wonder how well it does this and how it actually sounds.
   
  Thanks in advance.


----------



## Povell42

Quote: 





anarion said:


> I haven't heard any noticeable difference in audio quality when using ACM. If people plan to use this with sensitive headphones, be warned: HD 595's for example are pretty much unusable without ACM. But sure, if you can use it without it then by all means don't (no point using it). At least that way you eliminate one possible bottleneck.


 
   
  One thing to point out.....the ACM seems to degrade(or mess with) the Surround sound effect mostly.  So if you have tested this out while listening to it in stereo, than you may not hear as much difference.


----------



## Evshrug

Povell42,
Getting optimal virtual surround sure is finicky. With my Recon3D, I spent _hours_ adjusting Creative's control panel to get the best surround effect with the least "piercing sound" (after listening to anything for 45 minutes or so, my ears get really sensitive to anything harsh), adjusting things like Crystalizer down and down till eventually I realized I liked it best off. Any compression or extra processing throws off the delicate balance of good headphone surround. And yet, the THX surround has (so far) done a better job of creating a sense of place and placement than the Silent Cinema and Dolby Headphone devices I own and have been testing (I need to give DH another chance by using it with my tube amp), and it "works" better for me than the YouTube videos I've seen with CMSS-3D baked-in (though I bet those would sound better live, uncompressed, with a sound card plus external amp that emphasizes soundstage, like my tube amp).

I think even the differences between people's ears makes a significant difference, NamelessPFG and Mad Lust Envy have each shown me "the best case" examples of their favourite surround processing, yet I still prefer THX, Nameless prefers CMSS-3D, and Mad's best one is Dolby Headphone.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Quote: 





pmc64 said:


> I didn't know it worked on borderlands 2. I just changed it. Dishonored uses Wwise. Most UE games seem to use that or xaudio2 now a days.


 
   
   
  Ya borderlands has a clear sound advantage with openal running instead of through its own engine.  Much better surround positioning.  And to answer your other question, even though it does the openal and EAX through software, most games still sound terrific.  The penumbra series and the STALKER series use EAX really well still and the openal API.  
   
  Its a huge improvement over the Essence STX I was using previously.  And I only have the Z.  I cant wait to get the ZXR and really hear the difference.


----------



## Povell42

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Povell42,
> Getting optimal virtual surround sure is finicky. With my Recon3D, I spent _hours_ adjusting Creative's control panel to get the best surround effect with the least "piercing sound" (after listening to anything for 45 minutes or so, my ears get really sensitive to anything harsh), adjusting things like Crystalizer down and down till eventually I realized I liked it best off. Any compression or extra processing throws off the delicate balance of good headphone surround. And yet, the THX surround has (so far) done a better job of creating a sense of place and placement than the Silent Cinema and Dolby Headphone devices I own and have been testing (I need to give DH another chance by using it with my tube amp), and it "works" better for me than the YouTube videos I've seen with CMSS-3D baked-in (though I bet those would sound better live, uncompressed, with a sound card plus external amp that emphasizes soundstage, like my tube amp).
> 
> I think even the differences between people's ears makes a significant difference, NamelessPFG and Mad Lust Envy have each shown me "the best case" examples of their favourite surround processing, yet I still prefer THX, Nameless prefers CMSS-3D, and Mad's best one is Dolby Headphone.


 

 I agree with what you are saying,  but just to point out - I was talking about the difference in the surround sound with and with-out the ACM on the Sound Blaster Zx model.  For some reason it messes with it and makes the balance off and makes it more tinny sounding.  It also made playing Black Ops 2 sound significantly worse. 
   
  I actually really like the surround sound processing on this sound card (minus the ACM). I personally think that Dolby headphone is too echoy.  I liked silent cinema more that DH from my testing.


----------



## Evshrug

The point I was making is almost anything can throw off the balance required for surround  I only add this so you know I am listening and following you 

Good to hear you like the processing though, that gives me hope as I haven't really been able to audition SBX yet. I haven't tried SC and DH side-by-side yet, but I find them both kinda echo-y. I might find SC to be better, but it's been a while since I tested it. I was disappointed how flat DH sounded last night, but I'm going to try it again connected to a proper headphone amp. I think I will just eventually need a computer soundcard, I was just testing out DH through a turtle beach DSS to hold me over until I get an apartment and set up my Yamaha receiver permanently. Sad 'ceiver sits in a basement box currently 

Surround in MW3 was disappointing compared to CoD4: MW, I've heard the same story continues with BO2. Audio design has taken a step back. One concrete example: At least on consoles, MW3's center-channel is dialogue-only, which puts a hole in 5.1-to-headphone surround processing.


----------



## Povell42

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> The point I was making is almost anything can throw off the balance required for surround
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  I actually tested out an Astro Mixamp (2012 model), Turtle Beach DSS & DSS2 side by side.  I found that the DSS2 sounded the best to me.  It was the least echoy and I really liked it as an external option for virtual surround.  Surprisingly, I liked the Astro Mixamp *LEAST*. 
   
  I personally have found the SBX surround to be the best by far.  No echo at all really (unless you listen to it through the ACM).  It is very clear and precise.  Before I got the SBZx sound-card and my headphone, I was using the Tritton AX PRO. That had horrible sound compared to SBX paired with almost any decent headphone.


----------



## Evshrug

Well, of those three console gaming processors you mentioned, the DSS2 is actually the only one NOT based on Dolby Headphone processing! IIRC it uses something developed by Cirrus Logic... There was a guy who knew more but I haven't seen him online in a while (I95NORTH).

I thought the DSS lacked frontal depth and imaging definition, but I hooked it up to my tube amplifier tonight and things got better. Rear cues seem particularly good, and the software environmental effects in Halo: Reach helped to better define distance and what kind of room the sounds were coming from, but I'm still not blown away compared to the same setup I had with the Creative device. I use Q701 headphones.

I look forward to trying SBX someday, maybe CMSS-3D too just to round out the experience.


----------



## Povell42

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Well, of those three console gaming processors you mentioned, the DSS2 is actually the only one NOT based on Dolby Headphone processing! IIRC it uses something developed by Cirrus Logic.


 
   
  That would explain why I liked the DSS2 the most. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  I guess it is official....I do not like Dolby Headphone.


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

As far Dolby Headphone goes, only DH2 mode should be used, this one is the least echoy and doesn't add any significant amount reverb at all (I use it with my foobar2000 listening even), obviously you can't pick which mode to be used with those devices but in case of soundcards, one should stick to DH-2 mode.
   
  In terms of amount reverb & unnaturalness it goes like:
   
  DH-3 > DH-1 > DH-2


----------



## SoFGR

Quote: 





> I don't want to go back though as I feel the virtual surround on the Z is vastly superior to the cmss-3d to the Extreme Gamer Fatality.


 
  games and settings ??


----------



## Anarion

povell42 said:


> One thing to point out.....the ACM seems to degrade(or mess with) the Surround sound effect mostly.  So if you have tested this out while listening to it in stereo, than you may not hear as much difference.


If you have maxed out Windows volume level and the turn the ACM all the way down, then balance issues are really likely to happen. I use Windows volume level at 10% and turn ACM down to around letter e in volume, no balance issues and the surround sound better and more accurate than it did on Forte. I think the ACM is meant for fine tuning the volume instead of replacing the global OS volume control.

Anyway, I highly prefer stereo mode in OpenAL over virtual surround (in other words, using line out since headphone mode will change how OpenAL sounds quite dramatically, like with X-Fi before). It gives much wider soudn stage yet you still hear things behind you and even above or below you. It sound pretty much identical as with X-Fi Forte with elevation filter and the other thing ticked in stereo mode, X-Fi sounds little bit more piercing but positioning is maybe a little bit less accurate in that mode.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Quote: 





povell42 said:


> That would explain why I liked the DSS2 the most.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  The DSS2 isnt even a proper 5.1 channel mixer.  It takes the dolby signal and converts it to a 4.0 mix.  2 front speakers and 2 surround.  They lost the dolby headphone license and then went on to secure a different HRTF process.  A lot of people dont like it since it lacks the centre channel however I have never used it.  But I will say that DH sucks compared to SBX on my essence stx.  Too much reverb and hollow sounding.


----------



## Evshrug

rpgwizard said:


> As far Dolby Headphone goes, only DH2 mode should be used, this one is the least echoy and doesn't add any significant amount reverb at all (I use it with my foobar2000 listening even), obviously you can't pick which mode to be used with those devices but in case of soundcards, one should stick to DH-2 mode.
> 
> In terms of amount reverb & unnaturalness it goes like:
> 
> DH-3 > DH-1 > DH-2



The Astro Mixamps, Turtle Beach DSS, and Tritton base stations use DH-2. It's not bad, but mine needed help from amping, and it's not the best my ears have heard.



djinferno806 said:


> The DSS2 isnt even a proper 5.1 channel mixer.  It takes the dolby signal and converts it to a 4.0 mix.  2 front speakers and 2 surround.  They lost the dolby headphone license and then went on to secure a different HRTF process.  A lot of people dont like it since it lacks the centre channel however I have never used it.  But I will say that DH sucks compared to SBX on my essence stx.  Too much reverb and hollow sounding.



See, I'm not even sure the popular notion about the DSS2 being only 4 channel surround is true. I read the Amazon post about it, and FWIR the tech support didn't know for sure how it worked, and the user assumed it only used 4 channels because the demo-video only showed 4 speakers. Thing is, it still is fed by a Dolby Digital Live 5.1 signal, which it converts to virtual surround for just two channels. Now, some GAMES only put surround cues in just the four corner surround channels, like Mw3 which only puts dialogue audio on the centre channel... but if the DSS2 didn't use the center channel, then there would be no dialogue while playing that game. I could be wrong, but my analysis makes sense to me...
Still, if SBX is an evolution and hopefully not a step back from THX TruStudio Pro, then that's what I'm most interested in trying. The DSS is basically with me for testing purposes, and to hold me over till I find a good deal on a soundcard.


----------



## Povell42

Quote: 





djinferno806 said:


> The DSS2 isnt even a proper 5.1 channel mixer.  It takes the dolby signal and converts it to a 4.0 mix.  2 front speakers and 2 surround.  They lost the dolby headphone license and then went on to secure a different HRTF process.  A lot of people dont like it since it lacks the centre channel however I have never used it.  But I will say that DH sucks compared to SBX on my essence stx.  Too much reverb and hollow sounding.


 

 Yeah, The whole "DSS2 is only 4.0" is a huge rumor.  It actually started because in the manual that comes with it, it shows an illustration of only four speakers around a head.  I read through it thoroughly and in no way did I get the impression that it did not simulate 5.1.  
   
  The illustration was on the page that describes the different speaker position presets and in that case the center channel would not move so it did not illustrate it since it is a stationary channel. 
   
  I can tell you as someone who spent several hours testing it and comparing in to other "5.1" simulators it sounded like it had a virtual center channel.   Like I said it was actually my favorite external processor that I tested for virtual surround.   And "YES" it does accept Dolby Digital Live encoded signals.


----------



## CoryGillmore

Gonna touch again on ACM audio degradation. It seems the 1/8 inch jack on my ACM is faulty. I mean I plugged my MD Trumpets into it and was mortified. Now using my DT880 and the 1/4 inch jack on the ACM is fine. But I'm actually extremely pleased with using the included RCA to 1/8 inch adapter from the soundcard to my RSA SR-71a. Sounds great. Better than using my iPod Video 5.5G, $200 ALO LOD and the SR-71a. I posted this earlier but it took me a while to figure out that in order to use the RCA to 1/8 inch adapter and amp I had to set the card to speaker mode in the Creative control panel and set it to stereo.


----------



## Povell42

Quote: 





corygillmore said:


> Gonna touch again on ACM audio degradation. It seems the 1/8 inch jack on my ACM is faulty. I mean I plugged my MD Trumpets into it and was mortified. Now using my DT880 and the 1/4 inch jack on the ACM is fine. But I'm actually extremely pleased with using the included RCA to 1/8 inch adapter from the soundcard to my RSA SR-71a. Sounds great. Better than using my iPod Video 5.5G, $200 ALO LOD and the SR-71a. I posted this earlier but it took me a while to figure out that in order to use the RCA to 1/8 inch adapter and amp I had to set the card to speaker mode in the Creative control panel and set it to stereo.


 
   
  Yeah I have read that if you want to listen in stereo, the best sound is achieved that way. By connecting an external amp to the line out (R/L) port on the back (not headphone out) and then use your amps functions.   But then again, I would assume that hooking it up this way to any sound card - even on-board sound - will be greatly improved. (depending on the quality of your amp)


----------



## DJINFERNO806

povell42 said:


> Yeah, The whole "DSS2 is only 4.0" is a huge rumor.  It actually started because in the manual that comes with it, it shows an illustration of only four speakers around a head.  I read through it thoroughly and in no way did I get the impression that it did not simulate 5.1.
> 
> The illustration was on the page that describes the different speaker position presets and in that case the center channel would not move so it did not illustrate it since it is a stationary channel.
> 
> I can tell you as someone who spent several hours testing it and comparing in to other "5.1" simulators it sounded like it had a virtual center channel.   Like I said it was actually my favorite external processor that I tested for virtual surround.   And "YES" it does accept Dolby Digital Live encoded signals.


 

   
   
   
  So do you believe the DSS2 is superior to the mixamp?  It seems a lot of people say there is more hissing from the DSS2.  If it is indeed proper 5.1 HRTF then it would be a decent surround processor.
   
   
   
  Quote:


povell42 said:


> Yeah I have read that if you want to listen in stereo, the best sound is achieved that way. By connecting an external amp to the line out (R/L) port on the back (not headphone out) and then use your amps functions.   But then again, I would assume that hooking it up this way to any sound card - even on-board sound - will be greatly improved. (depending on the quality of your amp)


 
  Not necessarily since most of the onboard and generic sound cards have such a low SNR.  Usually around 100 dB if i remember.  Wouldn't that basically be a "bottleneck" when the signal gets to the amp?


----------



## Anarion

^^Yes it would, you would be amping the noise too. Looping it through external amp will degrade the snr even more than. It will never get better, only worse. If the source can't give enough power for headphones then it's another matter but the snr will degrade in any case.


----------



## Axaion

Alright then, read the entire thread and i didnt see this mentioned, if it was there i must have missed it.
In any case, i just got the SB Z 2 days ago, no issues with it at all, even got one of the new ones with gold caps on, but it seems that when i use the headphone port, and set it to headphones in creative control panel, it forces windows to 5.1, which.. kinda sucks for my HD555's compared to stereo, so i set it to stereo, and viola!, stero, but when i reboot, it resets to 5.1 >>

Anyone else have this problem?, id prefer to use the headphone port over line-out


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

Quote: 





axaion said:


> Alright then, read the entire thread and i didnt see this mentioned, if it was there i must have missed it.
> In any case, i just got the SB Z 2 days ago, no issues with it at all, even got one of the new ones with gold caps on, but it seems that when i use the headphone port, and set it to headphones in creative control panel, it forces windows to 5.1, which.. kinda sucks for my HD555's compared to stereo, so i set it to stereo, and viola!, stero, but when i reboot, it resets to 5.1 >>
> 
> Anyone else have this problem?, id prefer to use the headphone port over line-out


 
   
  Really? That's the recommended way of setting up the speakers.  I'd personally set it that straight away when I get the card if it didn't do it automaticly, it's a well known thing that with Creative cards (well I use it with Realtek onboard too) that windows speaker config should be set to 5.1 and "plugged in" / device in use to headphones in the sound card interface. This gives you a soundstage / positioning advantage, for gaming it's a big difference, for music listening not so, there's a small difference.
   
  Basically I think Creative forced it themselves to put it up that way due to all the fuss over the internet about it and noticed it gives better results. I'd say why you think it sounds worse is that you're just used to the "stereo" sound and it's in your head that it sounds worse because "5.1 speakers" obviously must be wrong config for headphone use so in your mind it automaticly has decided it must be worse... just a guess. (psychology plays a big role in how we enjoy/hear things)


----------



## Axaion

rpgwizard said:


> Really? That's the recommended way of setting up the speakers.  I'd personally set it that straight away when I get the card if it didn't do it automaticly, it's a well known thing that with Creative cards (well I use it with Realtek onboard too) that windows speaker config should be set to 5.1 and "plugged in" / device in use to headphones in the sound card interface. This gives you a soundstage / positioning advantage, for gaming it's a big difference, for music listening not so, there's a small difference.
> 
> Basically I think Creative forced it themselves to put it up that way due to all the fuss over the internet about it and noticed it gives better results. I'd say why you think it sounds worse is that you're just used to the "stereo" sound and it's in your head that it sounds worse because "5.1 speakers" obviously must be wrong config for headphone use so in your mind it automaticly has decided it must be worse... just a guess. (psychology plays a big role in how we enjoy/hear things)



well my issue is that it forced itself to 5.1 when im using headphones, it kinda messes up music and movies a bit, stuff feels like its more around me than "right/left" even if its a 2ch song or movie, binaural dosent work obviously, since thats stereo only aswell


----------



## kupco

I believe that if you want to use the card for listening to music only, you should hook it up to the line out and use a dedicated headphone amp. The line out has superior s/n ratio and you can switch to Stereo Direct and have best possible sound for music out of the Soundblaster Z. 
  For headphone out you have to switch to stereo in the windows settings manually every time unfortunately.


----------



## Axaion

Well thats just plain annoying, since i game, listen to music and watch movies almost equally -.-


----------



## Anarion

Mine most certainly does not revert to 5.1 mode when I select it. However, I run Windows 8 and do not have speaker setup thingy installed. It was messing around audio when I used line out with headphones, mixed it in some weird way.

Also stereo direct isn't necessarily best option. You can only get bit-perfect playback with it if you use 24-bit and 192kHz source. Last time I checked you had to enable resampler in Foobar if you used WASAPI because it only allows 24-bit and 192kHz in that mode.


----------



## Axaion

Ah, but does it revert when using the headphone plug?, if not.. could be a win7 bug


----------



## genclaymore

You could try going into sleep mode once to see if it sticks when you reboot. I know The X-FI settings did that to me. All I had to do is go into sleep mode after I set the settings. Then after I come out of it, the settings would stick even after reboot, when normally it would reset.


----------



## kupco

But since you game, listen to music and watch movies equally, doesn't that mean you'll be forced to go into that setting and change it all the time anyway? For movies and gaming the 5.1 speaker setup is better than plain stereo, especially if you enable the virtual surround in the Soundblaster settings.

I understand that if you always want to start in stereo and switch to 5.1 when needed, it is annoying. Let me check if it reverts back to the 5.1 setting after reboot if I set it to stereo for me too. Will write back with my findings.

//edit: so my settings also always revert to the 5.1 configuration. Can't test the sleep workaround as my computer hangs after returning from sleep...


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

I always preferred 5.1 for everything, much more exciting to listen with music surrounding you than coming from a certain direction.


----------



## Axaion

Just tried putting it into sleep after setting to stereo, then resume reboot, didnt stick here 
I'm going to have to get used to it then, I guess apart from that one thing the card is alot better than my old DX (mainly because of drivers, yes, i used UNi Xonar drivers there  )


----------



## Anarion

axaion said:


> Ah, but does it revert when using the headphone plug?, if not.. could be a win7 bug


It stays at 2.0, it also stays 2.0 on my brother's Windows 7 machine.

I still prefer stereo over virtual 5.1, especially when using OpenAL or Alchemy. Sound stage is much, much wider yet you still get HRTF (obviously not in stereo software audio games, like pretty much every game these days but older games sound nice).


----------



## Axaion

anarion said:


> It stays at 2.0, it also stays 2.0 on my brother's Windows 7 machine.
> 
> I still prefer stereo over virtual 5.1, especially when using OpenAL or Alchemy. Sound stage is much, much wider yet you still get HRTF (obviously not in stereo software audio games, like pretty much every game these days but older games sound nice).



Thanks, must be an issue on my end then, if all fails, i guess ill reinstall windows =)
edit; it sticks after reinstall and i kept the speaker config stuff, im going to assume you get the "pop" when you reboot aswell?


----------



## SoFGR

Quote: 





anarion said:


> I still prefer stereo over virtual 5.1, especially when using OpenAL or Alchemy. Sound stage is much, much wider yet you still get HRTF (obviously not in stereo software audio games, like pretty much every game these days but older games sound nice).


 
  that is with  sbx pro studio  ON ?


----------



## Anarion

sofgr said:


> that is with  sbx pro studio  ON ?


Disabled, headphone mode disabled and using line out. This is how it sounds: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0qL7BX_XcU


----------



## kupco

Yes, on line out the Windows settings default at 2.0 stereo. But when using the headphone out it automatically always reverts to 5.1 surround after reboot.


----------



## Axaion

kupco said:


> Yes, on line out the Windows settings default at 2.0 stereo. But when using the headphone out it automatically always reverts to 5.1 surround after reboot.



reinstall drivers and keep the speaker placement thing, it wont reset then, using the headphone port


----------



## Anarion

kupco said:


> Yes, on line out the Windows settings default at 2.0 stereo. But when using the headphone out it automatically always reverts to 5.1 surround after reboot.


No it does not, it shouldn't. If it does, something is wrong or the new drivers are buggy. My brother uses the headphone out and it does not revert to anything. It didn't when I used it (had to stop using because for some very weird reason audio from flash player in Firefox and IE10 sound crazy loud in Windows 8, new bug caused by the driver or recent flash updates).


----------



## neopac

edit: missed the posts inbetween
   
  Quote:


djinferno806 said:


> Ofcourse the virtual surround through headphone out is superior.  It was made with HRTF as its primary function.  The line out is made to virtualize surround with external speakers in front of you.  Completely different audio cues and timing.


 
   
  speaking about line-out doesn´t necessary mean you´d use speakers. Someone could headphone-amp this line-out and use it with cans (and that´s what i read from his post).
  though i don´t see why this would be the case with the z-series ... this would only make sense, if the line-out connected amp is (way!) inferior to the integrated amp.
   
  cheers


----------



## kupco

I wanted to use the line out to get unamped sound to my Schiit Magni (headphone amp) as I was worried double amping would cause sound distortion and/or high level of noise. I had to scratch the idea as the virtual surround via line out sounds really bad when using headphones. 
  However, right now I'm using the headphone out to my Magni where I hook up my Beyers to and I can say that to my ears there is no sound distortion nor noise. I'm happy with this setup. 
   
  As for the 5.1 surround setup on startup - I'll have to try to reinstall my drivers and leave the speakers set up option on (I did not install that) to see if the 2.0 speaker settings do stick after reboot after that.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Quote: 





neopac said:


> speaking about line-out doesn´t necessary mean you´d use speakers. Someone could headphone-amp this line-out and use it with cans (and that´s what i read from his post).
> though i don´t see why this would be the case with the z-series ... this would only make sense, if the line-out connected amp is (way!) inferior to the integrated amp.
> 
> cheers


 
  Yes but HRTF algorithms for headphones are what is being using for headphone out and for line out they have a different one intended for speakers.  Creative assumes your setup will be this way.


----------



## ahm12

who hear thinks the Bass sound strange since the driver update few days ago ??


----------



## Axaion

..few days ago?, last one was the 12th last month


----------



## turokrocks

Quote: 





ahm12 said:


> who hear thinks the Bass sound strange since the driver update few days ago ??


 
  The new driver caused lots of pops while booting....I kept the old driver.


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

Funnily, my experience with Audigy cards were that with the drivers on the CD, like really old drivers, it sounded best to my ears.


----------



## ahm12

Quote: 





turokrocks said:


> The new driver caused lots of pops while booting....I kept the old driver.


 
  i had no problems. 
  but the i m hating the Bass right now...
   
  this sound blaster z already sucked at driving my dt990
  and now the bass is kind of strange..
  i dont even know how to explain it..


----------



## Anarion

No difference here, other than Flash audio in Firefox and IE10 blasts my ears if I use headphone out.


----------



## ozz007

So if you have the HD-Titanium, would the ZXR be an upgrade? 
   
  is it worth the price upgrade? 
   
  Thanks.


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

These cards have been out of stock in Finland for over a month! I guess demand really must be huge. :O
   
  I've waited for my ZxR card probably 5 weeks now lol. Strange thing is, they are cheaper in Finland than germany for example, I don't know why finnish retailers doesn't simply up the price as the demand is so huge anyway, not that I complain, I just find it weird.


----------



## CoryGillmore

I should mention that I have experienced a pretty nasty bug with the latest drivers (about a month old) on my ZxR. About a day after installing them I went in to the Creative control panel and noticed that the entire control panel was blank. Meaning I couldn't change any options in it. Pretty system breaking bug for me as I switch between DTS encoding and no encoding quite frequently. Uninstalling and reinstalling the driver did not fix the problem. I actually had to to a full Windows restore to before I installed the latest drivers to fix it.


----------



## turokrocks

Quote: 





corygillmore said:


> I should mention that I have experienced a pretty nasty bug with the latest drivers (about a month old) on my ZxR. About a day after installing them I went in to the Creative control panel and noticed that the entire control panel was blank. Meaning I couldn't change any options in it. Pretty system breaking bug for me as I switch between DTS encoding and no encoding quite frequently. Uninstalling and reinstalling the driver did not fix the problem. I actually had to to a full Windows restore to before I installed the latest drivers to fix it.


 
  My advice, change the  ZXR PCi-E location, as this happened even with a full system reset with the "OLD Recon" later after 4-5 days of the reset, and only this stopped it from ever happening again.
   
  I advise against using the latest drivers..


----------



## CoryGillmore

turokrocks said:


> My advice, change the  ZXR
> PCi-E
> location
> , as this happened even with a full system reset with the "OLD Recon" later after 4-5 days of the reset, and only this stopped it from ever happening again.
> ...




Unfortunately my SLI GPU setup won't allow me the luxury of using another slot. If it happens again I'll just take my computer for a swim. Yeah that'll show it.


----------



## turokrocks

Quote: 





corygillmore said:


> Unfortunately my SLI GPU setup won't allow me the luxury of using another slot. If it happens again I'll just take my computer for a swim. Yeah that'll show it.


 
  No more....
   
   
 Select ASRock Motherboards Will Feature Waterproof Coating


----------



## kazaakas

Hey people, I'm just wondering how exactly this card differs from the Titanium HD.
   
  I've searched through the thread a little and I found out that:
   
  - It's newer and will have "better support"
  - it has a second card with some extra connections
  - The SNR is 124dB instead of 122dB
   
  ...But what else is there?
   
  Does it actually have an headphone amp or is it just a high powered jack like the TiHD? Does it still support CMSS-3D and ALchemy and all of that good stuff?
   
  I'm a TiHD user with an external headphone amp and I love the card for it's insane versitality: Superb sound quality in bit matched Audio Creation mode for music listening and great positioning in Gaming mode with CMSS-3D headphone with ALchemy for games (I play a lot of source games which are DS3D based).
   
  Should I feel bad for having a TiHD now this card is out?


----------



## genclaymore

One of the main differences between the two is the  Z has a headphone amp, while the Titanium HD has op-amp sockets which the Z doesn't


----------



## turokrocks

The ZXR do:
   
http://support.creative.com/kb/ShowArticle.aspx?sid=112623
   
   
   
   

  Replacing Op-Amps on Sound Blaster ZxR
 [size=xx-small]*Keywords / Key Phrases: opamp, op-amps, operational amplifier, op-amp replacement guide, zxr, sound blaster zxr*

 
  Summary:  
 *Applicable To:* Sound Blaster ZxR
 This article provides information on changeable op-amps in Sound Blaster ZxR card.
 

The Sound Blaster ZxR comes with 4 op-amps that is customizable to your sound preferences. The front set of op-amps (SET A) uses the Single DIP (LME49710) type. The rear set of op-amps (SET B) uses the Dual DIP (NJM2411D) type. The card currently has the most optimum setting for the 4 op-amps.
If you find that one of your op-amps is faulty and it needs a replacement, follow the steps below:
1.You will need a flat head screw driver to remove the op-amp for replacement. Pry and alternate between both ends of the op-amp carefully in order to remove it completely from the op-amp socket.
2.To insert an op-amp, please ensure that the pins are not bent and check that they are positioned in the correct orientation. Once the pins are properly aligned to the socket, press the op-amp gently but firmly into the op-amp socket. Ensure that all the pins are inserted fully into the socket.


 Click to enlarge




 









[/size]


----------



## genclaymore

Quote: 





turokrocks said:


> The ZXR do:
> 
> http://support.creative.com/kb/ShowArticle.aspx?sid=112623
> 
> ...


 
   
   
  Quote: 





turokrocks said:


> The ZXR do:
> 
> http://support.creative.com/kb/ShowArticle.aspx?sid=112623
> 
> ...


 

 Yea I know the ZXR has op-amp sockets, But I was talking about the Z which he was asking about.


----------



## turokrocks

Quote: 





genclaymore said:


> Yea I know the ZXR has op-amp sockets, But I was talking about the Z which he was asking about.


 





...Cheers.


----------



## ozz007

So if you have the TiHD and only using the SPIF is it worth the upgrade? I have it connected to a outside dac and an AMP. for my headphones. I only use the digital out.


----------



## Radical_53

Does ist do anything at all then? I always thought I paid a premium price for the DAC, good analogue components and maybe the headphone amplifier.
   
  Is there anything substantial not considered an upgrade when coming from the Titanium HD?


----------



## genclaymore

Quote: 





ozz007 said:


> So if you have the TiHD and only using the SPIF is it worth the upgrade? I have it connected to a outside dac and an AMP. for my headphones. I only use the digital out.


 
  Since all you use is digital then no it wouldn't be worth it. Only if you use the analog outputs.


----------



## kazaakas

Quote: 





genclaymore said:


> Yea I know the ZXR has op-amp sockets, But I was talking about the Z which he was asking about.


 
   
  Thanks for the response, I actually meant the ZxR lol..
  But since I use an external amp I should be fine I guess?
   
  I don't really care about the 122dB vs 124dB sensitivity
  Wait let me rephrashe that:
  I really don't care about the 122dB vs 124dB sensitivity


----------



## genclaymore

Yea you would be also when using the line out you will be using both I/V and buffer op-amps.


----------



## kazaakas

As a matter of fact that's exactly how I've been using the card all the time


----------



## Jehmimah

I have this card, and honestly it's fine. The software audio processing isn't as noticeable and as bad as one might think. Creative did a good job with it IMO.


----------



## kenammo

Bought the ZXR today. Installation was a breeze and the driver/software loaded easily with no issues. Fresh out of the box it sounded tinny, with excessive echo and bass. I opened the SB Control Panel and noticed that SBX Pro Studio was activated and the Surround, Crystalizer and Bass settings were way too high for headphones. I adjusted these to taste, unchecked Surround and now it sounds incredible.
   
  The ZXR mates well with my J River MC 18. The ACM is awesome and there is no degradation in SQ or volume when using it. My Denons are powered with ease and I seldom go past 1 o' clock on the volume control.
   
  I'm very satisfied with my ZXR. A definite keeper.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





ozz007 said:


> So if you have the HD-Titanium, would the ZXR be an upgrade?
> 
> is it worth the price upgrade?
> 
> Thanks.


 
   
  It's very likely to be a *downgrade* if you prefer CMSS-3D Headphone to SBX Pro Surround, or like to play old DOS games with MIDI soundtracks running on the X-Fi's hardware MIDI synthesizer, complete with SoundFont support that lets you tweak the sound to your liking.
   
  Analog output quality probably wouldn't vary that much, certainly not at this price point. If you're hoping to get a headphone amp out of the deal, why buy a new sound card instead of just putting that money toward something like a Schiit Magni or Objective2?
   
  If the Titanium HD works for you, just keep it. The Z-series is more enticing to people who DON'T own Titanium HD-class cards already, because there's an actual value proposition there. But in your case, it just sounds like you want to buy new hardware because it's new, when what you've got works just fine, possibly even better in some ways.
   
  Quote: 





kazaakas said:


> Hey people, I'm just wondering how exactly this card differs from the Titanium HD.
> 
> I've searched through the thread a little and I found out that:
> 
> ...


 
   
  They say it has a proper headphone amp IC now, which demanding dynamic/ortho owners on a budget might like...on the other hand, brief testing of the HE-400 out of the Titanium HD's headphone jack yielded no apparent flaws. The difference would probably be more obvious if I tested something like an AKG K/Q701. (And you already use an external amp anyway, so it's effectively pointless for you, just as any headphone amp not designed for electrostatics is useless to me.)
   
  CMSS-3D Headphone is NOT available on any Sound Core3D device, Z-series included. If your preference is with THX/SBX Pro Surround, you won't have a problem with it, but if not, the only way to roll back is to go back to X-Fi hardware.
   
  ALchemy is supported, but it's being routed to a software OpenAL device now, not a hardware one. This may or may not cause issues with certain games; the first two Thief games were notorious offenders 'til that newdark patch implemented native OpenAL support. Even with OpenAL-native games, you can have quirks; Battlefield 2 on X-Fi, Ultra High sound settings starts having reverb in the menu that shouldn't be present, and in general, it just doesn't sound right. The differences may only be obvious if you've actually heard the same game on a system with a real X-Fi card, though.
   
  No, you shouldn't feel bad for having an X-Fi Titanium HD at all. The Z-series is meant to appeal to newer users who don't already have a top-tier sound card, and they seem to be doing an admirable job of that, but it's not really an upgrade for us X-Fi owners.
   
  Quote: 





ozz007 said:


> So if you have the TiHD and only using the SPIF is it worth the upgrade? I have it connected to a outside dac and an AMP. for my headphones. I only use the digital out.


 
   
  Wait, you're ONLY using S/PDIF-out?
   
  In that case, even the X-Fi Titanium HD is overkill over a cheaper X-Fi Titanium (non-HD)! You're just using the sound card as a glorified DSP, bypassing the DAC altogether.


----------



## Radical_53

Some might consider it an upgrade as positional audio, according to reviews, is said to be better on the ZXR. Any further info on this would certainly be welcome though 
  Apart from that sound quality should be about the same and some features differ between X-Fi and ZXR, so that depends on what you're looking for.


----------



## kazaakas

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *NamelessPFG* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> They say it has a proper headphone amp IC now, which demanding dynamic/ortho owners on a budget might like...on the other hand, brief testing of the HE-400 out of the Titanium HD's headphone jack yielded no apparent flaws. The difference would probably be more obvious if I tested something like an AKG K/Q701. (And you already use an external amp anyway, so it's effectively pointless for you, just as any headphone amp not designed for electrostatics is useless to me.)
> 
> ...


 
  Hah, thats great news, thank you for this extensive explaination, much appreciated.
  I indeed prefer CMSS-3D over THX Trustudio Pro especially since it makes use of OpenAL so well, so I'm actually far better off with the TiHD then! 
   
  Although I don't think I can tell if I prefer CMSS-3D over THX Trustudio, with my card I haven't found a way to enable Trustudio together with ALchemy, since TruStudio is only available in entertainment mode and ALchemy only in gaming mode. So I'd be heaviy biased towards CMSS-3D.


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the THX something on Z-series cards different to the Titanium HD one and is said to work wonderfully by those who has tested it. So if that's the case you can't compare THX on TiHD vs Z-series THX.
   
  Personally I dislike CMSS3D because it affects too much on the SQ, I rather have sound quality intact and more subtle positional audio. I can't get over how the highs gets unnaturally crispy with CMSS3D and feels a bit like drawing nails on a chalkboard, not pleasant.
   
  OT, I want my ZxR card damnit! I probably waited 6 weeks now! Still no idea about the availability.


----------



## kazaakas

I wouldn't know really, there isn't much chance of a definitive answer to this either, but I don't think they completely overhauled the algorithm to be honest.
  The settings in the THX menu are also the same, except that bass is called speaker but it does pretty much the same thing.
   
  About DSP effects reducing gaming sound quality, competitively I use...
  - CMSS-3D
  - Some EQ'ing to drown out some treble to make gunshots less harsh so I can turn my volume up louder to hear stuff other than gunshots louder in comparison
  - SVM to hear footsteps and other more quiet stuff relatively louder when the environment is quiet.
   
  Now I'm looking at it, the EQ settings I use for CS are -3db@2k, -6dB@4k, -9dB@8k and -4.5dB@16k. Pretty insane, isn't it? I sure as hell wouldn't ever listen to music like that.
   
  So by using all this stuff that's bad for your sound quality you could say that I don't care about sound quality when gaming competitively, but then again I use these settings to hear everything as clear and as accurate as possible, which is actually something you could classify as sound quality again... bit of a paradox, ain't it? To me in gaming sound quality isn't about sensationalism or realism anymore but it's more about how I can tweak my sound to gain as much of an advantage as possible.


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

Well the THX info I base on another respectable forum user's experience which have tried all the different cards and technologies for surround sound and was very positively suprised by the ZxR's THX and thought it was the best he had used so far... just cuz the settings are the same doesn't mean under the cover is going on the same thing. So I'm still of the opinion, don't judge THX of Z-series unless having tried it. I mean there has to be a reason CMSS3D was ditched alltogether and I think it's due to the THX is actually catching up now. I would gladly comment on it myself if I could only get my card shipped to me!
   
  A few testimonials I found from a quick search:
   


> Quote:
> 
> 
> [size=10pt]  Originally Posted by *xoleras*
> ...


 
   
   


> Quote:
> 
> 
> [size=10pt]  Originally Posted by *xoleras*
> ...


 
   
   


> I feel the same way. I came from an x-fi titanium HD, and my intention is to get a ZxR when it's available. I am beyond impressed with this card - the 3d doesn't interfere with music quality as it did on the x-fi series of cards. The HD was great -- don't get me wrong -- but the 3d effect could, at times, affect music quality so i'd always enable it for games and movies only. With ZX, music is crisp and clear, and even enabling surround doesn't affect the fidelity. Music quality is pretty amazing IMO. The HD was a great card, but the ZX far surpassed my expectations. This card is staying, at least until I get a ZxR.
> 
> The 3D is also far better than what the Recon3D had. So far i'd put it on par with the titanium HD, although I haven't done a direct headphone comparison between CMSS3D vs SBX surround. SBX surround is definitely better than the THX surround used on the recon3d line, though.....
> 
> The other features are pretty great as well, especially the mic echo cancellation and headphone amp/audio control module.. Really enjoying the card, so far.


----------



## Shingyboy

I have a question about the Creative Sound Blaster ZxR, can it drive the AKG Q701 and Sennheiser 650HD?


----------



## kenammo

Quote: 





shingyboy said:


> I have a question about the Creative Sound Blaster ZxR, can it drive the AKG Q701 and Sennheiser 650HD?


 
   
  I'm not familiar with the impedence requirements of the AKG or the Senn, but the gain output of the ZXR is switchable through the Soundblaster Pro Studio Audio Control Panel:


----------



## Evshrug

kenammo said:


> I'm not familiar with the impedence requirements of the AKG or the Senn, but the gain output of the ZXR is switchable through the Soundblaster Pro Studio Audio Control Panel:




The AKG Q701 has (only) a 62 Ohm impedance, but a relatively low sensitivity. Seems most sources can drive them loud enough (some need near max for normal listening volume), but they are so detailed that they really make apparent and reward more refined amps and DACs.


----------



## Nielo TM

*[Update regarding Nichicon vs G-Luxon caps] *

 I bought a second SBZ to act as DAC and luckily it was fitted with Nichicon caps, which meant I could finally compare and see if I missed out.  I was initially going for the Fiio E17, but the SBZ seemed much better (and cheaper). Anyway,  upon listing to both cards simultaneously via PFE-112, I couldn't hear any noticeable differences apart from slight gap in the volume, which could've been caused by number of things. Soundstage, lows, mids and highs all seemed identical. So all in all, the caps don't seem to affect the over-all quality. I guess that was to be expected.


----------



## Shingyboy

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> The AKG Q701 has (only) a 62 Ohm impedance, but a relatively low sensitivity. Seems most sources can drive them loud enough (some need near max for normal listening volume), but they are so detailed that they really make apparent and reward more refined amps and DACs.


 

 Oh I see, if you were to pair up headphones with this sound card for general usage from gaming, music and movies what would you pick?


----------



## turokrocks

Quote: 





shingyboy said:


> Oh I see, if you were to pair up headphones with this sound card for general usage from gaming, music and movies what would you pick?


 
  Price range?


----------



## Evshrug

shingyboy said:


> Oh I see, if you were to pair up headphones with this sound card for general usage from gaming, music and movies what would you pick?



Oh I picked the Q701, I expect they'll do fine with the SB Z when I pick one up. These are great all-rounder headphones, and I am currently of the opinion that most amps can power it fine, but the quality of the amp and DAC makes a more significant difference in the sound quality than power output. If I was looking at a cheaper headphone, I'd probably get an Audio Technica AD900x; I love the comfort of the AD headphones personally, they respond really well to surround processing, and the AD700 I had before was pretty forgiving of the components in my audio chain (though I liked boosting the sub-bass up for that model). Even cheaper I really enjoyed the tone of JVC's HA-RX900 (with the TopPop mods), but it wasn't as refined or able to make each instrument sound as distinct as the more expensive headphones I've owned. I think the Q701 *looks* the best, LMAO!


----------



## Shingyboy

Quote: 





turokrocks said:


> Price range?


 

 If I were to say around £200 perhaps a bit more if it is worth spending the money on them, what would you say?
   
  Quick edit: Okay so the sound card arrived today anyway, I plan to buy some decent headphones later on in the month but right now I can't get sound to work in anything but 5.1 surround in the pro blaster menu, can someone tell me what I am doing wrong, I am quite new to this.


----------



## kenammo

Quote: 





shingyboy said:


> If I were to say around £200 perhaps a bit more if it is worth spending the money on them, what would you say?
> 
> Quick edit: Okay so the sound card arrived today anyway, I plan to buy some decent headphones later on in the month but right now I can't get sound to work in anything but 5.1 surround in the pro blaster menu, can someone tell me what I am doing wrong, I am quite new to this.


 
   
  Shingy,
   
  Check all the settings and buttons on your menu that I've highlighted in yellow:
   

   
  Good luck!


----------



## Shingyboy

Quote: 





kenammo said:


> Shingy,
> 
> Check all the settings and buttons on your menu that I've highlighted in yellow:
> 
> ...


 

 Thanks for your help, I read the manual too, I feel so stupid lol, ah well I got there in the end.
   
  I already can tell a difference on my sub par headset though wow it is quite nice, I can't wait to get a nice pair of headphones now!


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





rpgwizard said:


> Well the THX info I base on another respectable forum user's experience which have tried all the different cards and technologies for surround sound and was very positively suprised by the ZxR's THX and thought it was the best he had used so far... just cuz the settings are the same doesn't mean under the cover is going on the same thing. So I'm still of the opinion, don't judge THX of Z-series unless having tried it. I mean there has to be a reason CMSS3D was ditched alltogether and I think it's due to the THX is actually catching up now. I would gladly comment on it myself if I could only get my card shipped to me!
> 
> A few testimonials I found from a quick search:
> 
> *snipped*


 
   
  I'm somewhat intrigued...but still VERY skeptical. If I find the Z-series cards displaying any of the flaws and shortcomings I encountered with the Recon3D USB regarding its OpenAL implementation and general surround mixing, then I'm still going to recommend cards with the X-Fi EMU20k1/20k2.
   
  I still don't think change is inherently for the better; Creative changed up their cards like you wouldn't believe back in the ISA days, and people still heavily debate which revisions are worth buying and which totally suck. There are already two very different Sound Blaster Pro models regarding the FM synth implementation (dual OPL2 vs. single OPL3), and even just saying "Sound Blaster 16" or "AWE32" isn't specific enough because of all the various little revisions Creative made with different chips and feature sets and whatnot. In other words, Creative dropping features is hardly a new thing.
   
  Then there's the game industry's move away from OpenAL to software-mixed audio that sounds noticeably inferior from a positioning standpoint to me. All the way from Aureal A3D to that in a decade...yes, I'm still bitter!
   
  Still, as much as I want to review one of these cards, I'm not paying for the review hardware since I have the worst luck reselling things. *points to Recon3D USB that nobody wants*


----------



## turokrocks

Quote: 





shingyboy said:


> If I were to say around perhaps a bit more if it is worth spending the money on them, what would you say?
> 
> Quick edit: Okay so the sound card arrived today anyway, I plan to buy some decent headphones later on in the month but right now I can't get sound to work in anything but 5.1 surround in the pro blaster menu, can someone tell me what I am doing wrong, I am quite new to this.


 
   
  I would go with the Beyerdynamic DT-1350, as it sounds wonderful with almost everything  , but its not a "Bass" headphone.
  And you can use it for outside.
   
  Maybe the Sen. 650 or the wonderful HE-400......yeah, I think you should go for it.


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

I ordered my ZxR card March 8th and tomorrow they FIIIIINNAALLY will be able to ship it to me. O_o Can you say high demand? Finland has been like almost fully out of stock of these cards for that long time, none of the suppliers had them and they weren't even able to tell any dates of when they'd get them...


----------



## Radical_53

Over here even Amazon doesn't have it in stock. It seems like they either didn't produce a lot of units or there's a really high demand.


----------



## turokrocks

Quote: 





rpgwizard said:


> I ordered my ZxR card March 8th and tomorrow they FIIIIINNAALLY will be able to ship it to me. O_o Can you say high demand? Finland has been like almost fully out of stock of these cards for that long time, none of the suppliers had them and they weren't even able to tell any dates of when they'd get them...


 
  But this still means more waiting....
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.
  Hope you get it soon, and give us your impression.


----------



## Anarion

rpgwizard said:


> I ordered my ZxR card March 8th and tomorrow they FIIIIINNAALLY will be able to ship it to me. O_o Can you say high demand? Finland has been like almost fully out of stock of these cards for that long time, none of the suppliers had them and they weren't even able to tell any dates of when they'd get them...


I dunno... According to Jimm's PC store site, waiting time is 2-5 days and that supplier has ****loads of 'em. Same waiting time for Verkkokauppa.com too.


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

Quote: 





anarion said:


> I dunno... According to Jimm's PC store site, waiting time is 2-5 days and that supplier has ****loads of 'em. Same waiting time for Verkkokauppa.com too.


 
   
  Yes that changed now as the suppliers started getting them now.


----------



## Evshrug

namelesspfg said:


> I'm somewhat intrigued...but still VERY skeptical. If I find the Z-series cards displaying any of the flaws and shortcomings I encountered with the Recon3D USB regarding its OpenAL implementation and general surround mixing, then I'm still going to recommend cards with the X-Fi EMU20k1/20k2.
> 
> I still don't think change is inherently for the better; Creative changed up their cards like you wouldn't believe back in the ISA days, and people still heavily debate which revisions are worth buying and which totally suck. There are already two very different Sound Blaster Pro models regarding the FM synth implementation (dual OPL2 vs. single OPL3), and even just saying "Sound Blaster 16" or "AWE32" isn't specific enough because of all the various little revisions Creative made with different chips and feature sets and whatnot. In other words, Creative dropping features is hardly a new thing.
> 
> ...



 *points back at you*
The Recon3D USB has downsides, but you shoot yourself in the foot. It may not be able to fully support as many old games as your X-Fi Titanium, and probably neither does this Z-series, but it has as good or better support as the Xonar cards (5.1 surround conversion at least) AND has the strong selling point of working for PC, Mac, and consoles, with minimal reconfiguration. I was able to sell mine even though I wasn't sure I wanted to part with it, I even referred the other interested buyers to you, but you'll never sell yours if you constantly say "Nobody wants it." It's not luck, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

That advice off my chest (have I said it before?), I'm very interested in the new Z-series cards, but if I don't get one *"I"* may offer to buy it off you, just so that I don't have to open my computer case and unscrew/unplug the card from the PCI slot just so I can boot into Mac OSX. I wish Creative would make Mac drivers for these Z cards, but that's really Apple's fault for never offering an affordable PC tower and only begrudgingly allowing game support as long as they don't have to do extra work for it (Aspyr is a saint for making working ports, but unfortunately their business suffers from time and labor costs).





rpgwizard said:


> I ordered my ZxR card March 8th and tomorrow they FIIIIINNAALLY will be able to ship it to me. O_o Can you say high demand? Finland has been like almost fully out of stock of these cards for that long time, none of the suppliers had them and they weren't even able to tell any dates of when they'd get them...




Not to rub it in, but I walked into my local suburban Best Buy, confused the employees by saying "I'm going to look at the soundcards," and saw a few Sound Blaster Z cards on the shelf. I could probably get the ZxR online, but it was cool to see it in person.
Maybe some day I'll move to California. They have almost everything there, though also a higher cost of living.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> *points back at you*
> The Recon3D USB has downsides, but you shoot yourself in the foot. It may not be able to fully support as many old games as your X-Fi Titanium, and probably neither does this Z-series, but it has as good or better support as the Xonar cards (5.1 surround conversion at least) AND has the strong selling point of working for PC, Mac, and consoles, with minimal reconfiguration. I was able to sell mine even though I wasn't sure I wanted to part with it, I even referred the other interested buyers to you, but you'll never sell yours if you constantly say "Nobody wants it." It's not luck, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy.
> 
> That advice off my chest (have I said it before?), I'm very interested in the new Z-series cards, but if I don't get one *"I"* may offer to buy it off you, just so that I don't have to open my computer case and unscrew/unplug the card from the PCI slot just so I can boot into Mac OSX. I wish Creative would make Mac drivers for these Z cards, but that's really Apple's fault for never offering an affordable PC tower and only begrudgingly allowing game support as long as they don't have to do extra work for it (Aspyr is a saint for making working ports, but unfortunately their business suffers from time and labor costs).


 
   
  I suppose you have a point...still, even when I sell things I know other people want and I wouldn't want to part with if not for other concerns, it's impossible for me to do so without cutting my own throat on the price because nobody shows interest. It's not just the Recon3D USB - it's a long, long history of this sort of thing regardless of what I sell.
   
  All of that aside, I'm one of the toughest customers to please in any market. I will absolutely scrutinize a product for the slightest imperfections, and if I notice, it just never, ever stops bugging me until I find a way to fix or replace it. And while the X-Fi cards do have their issues, everything else I've tried is even more glaringly imperfect for what I do...
   
  I also almost forgot about that Mac OS X support. Seeing as I'm a Windows guy who occasionally dabbles in Linux and neither feel like Hackintoshing nor paying up for a Mac Pro, it generally doesn't cross my mind all that often.


----------



## Evshrug

And gaming consoles.

I'm not saying the Recon3D USB isn't without faults... The amping isn't very powerful, which affects the soundstage (much improved with double-amping), and THX surround mode really isn't intended for speakers (just sounds like stereo), only one output port, doesn't use the X-Fi ALchemy and EAX hardware that some games used to look for, BUT it is what it is and has a few unique benefits.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> And gaming consoles.
> 
> I'm not saying the Recon3D USB isn't without faults... The amping isn't very powerful, which affects the soundstage (much improved with double-amping), and THX surround mode really isn't intended for speakers (just sounds like stereo), only one output port, doesn't use the X-Fi ALchemy and EAX hardware that some games used to look for, BUT it is what it is and has a few unique benefits.


 
   
  Ah, yes, consoles too...for which I have the SU-DH1, which has the bonus of also decoding DTS and Dolby Pro Logic II.
   
  I suppose that's my problem; it's an all-in-one device for whose purposes I have more specialized and suitable devices to use, but not everybody has the extra hardware I'm using.


----------



## Evshrug

Given that the SU-HD1 is discontinued and hard to find, it's not an option for most people.

I'm actually annoyed with my friends... Borderlands 2 is only $13.59 USD on Steam right now, but my friends all say "Ehhh, I want it for Xbox, and I'm going to wait for the GOTY version." Ok, I understand that you get a great bundle price with patience, BUT, the GOTY will likely be around $30 or more upon release, and hold for a fair while. The other part is, we have so many games these days, who's to say you won't want to move on to something else by the time you get through the main game?

I'm ready for PC graphics & upgradability, and I'm ready to stop paying for LIVE, but my closest buddies aren't ready to give up on the college/highschool arrangement of laptop and console. It's not a bad arrangement, one I've stuck to for many years (before they even bought/were gifted computers for personal use), but in today's landscape it's extra expensive for a less rich experience. A very portable smartphone/tablet is much more mobile, and I'd like a powerful PC setup.

Uh...
Uhh...
And I'd like a sound card like the one in this thread for games & music


----------



## genclaymore

Tell them to plug a xbox 360 controller into there PC's and play the game.  since the xbox 360 controller is comparability with a windows PC.


----------



## Evshrug

IKR??!?
That's how I was playing Star Wars: Force Unleashed (in Mac OS X), and Dishonored (Win8 Pro).


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

Got the card finally after having waited since March 8th when I ordered it. xD Fired straight up some music and my 1st reaction was, What why do the highs sounds so bad and worse than my Realtek onboard? Then I checked the software and seems by default like every audio processing like THX and Crystallizer was turned on so then after I turned off all the processing I was like DDD
   
  However upon further listen I may have one problem coming from my old Realtek ALC889A, the soundstage might be tiny bit smaller/closed in is my initial impressions. Funnily, this was one of those things I noticed with the Titanium HD card as well. With Realtek I permanently used 5.1 speakers in windows control panel and the soundstage really opens up bigtime and it's less stereo and more free "360 soundstage" that is my preferred way of listen, not a big fan of pure stereo sound. With 5.1 speakers with the ZxR it doesn't seem to make a big of a difference, I believe it's creative doing some slight processing of the "Headphone" config in the software, I also preferred using "Speakers/Stereo" with Titanium HD over Headphones as the soundstage seemed less cavernous and less forced "stereo". Too bad you can't seem to use "speakers" in Z-series software when using headphones. I like the sound of it otherwise, it's a nicely balanced source with a very slight emphasis on the lows, the mids & highs feels perfectly balanced but this is surely among the bassiest sources I've tested, it really gives a lot fullness to the bass, had to turn down digiZoid ZO amp like 2 steps to get it on similar level as with Realtek onboard chip.

 I tested also for example Unreal Tournament 3 which is among those few games left with very good audio processing and well with OpenAL disabled when it's a good comparision of how well the "5.1 virtual" processing that is taking place if using 5.1 speaker config with this game (huge huge difference from using "stereo" speaker config in windows) I also felt the soundstage was smaller than I was used to, the positioning was there like I was used to but the soundstage seemed smaller.

 Besides the letdown soundstage wise I like it but I feel I have to make more comparisions soundstage wise against the Realtek onboard to better determine whether there's the difference I think I'm hearing or not as there's a chance Creative's software implemented speaker config may just not work well for me.


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

The soundstage seems better with the onboard Realtek ALC889A unfortunately, otherwise sounds a bit better for sure but it's difficult to accept the smaller soundstage, really liking the open natural soundstage of this ALC889A chip if using 5.1 speaker config. I also tried out of curiosity using stereo->RCA converter to plug the headphones on the ZxR card into the speaker ports and it was easy to tell it wasn't amped like the headphone port as the sound was much more muffled and the output volume lower and the soundstage still didn't sound quite ideal no matter how I put the speaker config from stereo or 5.1 and with all kinds of the speaker options enabled/disabled. Possibly tiny bit more open than compared to the headphone port (probably down to the Creative software side speaker processing again and headphone and speakers may not be exactly the same) but the difference surely wasn't worth it to bypass the amping.
   
  So I'm a bit on the fence here, not sure what to to think.


----------



## xeizo

Interesting, Realtek do have a rather mature solution by now - the ALC892 in one of my boxes sounds quite ok, if not esoteric. Best integrated I've had was the SoundMax 2000. But choosing the ZxR seems like a massive overkill if you're mostly/only into virtual surround. You should have opted for the much cheaper Z instead, if you were just curious over Creatives implementation of surround. It has the exact same surround features. All the extra efforts on the ZxR have been spent on improving pure stereo-sound, which seems to be of no particular use in your case.
   
  Best surround I've had was with the very cheap Xonar DG and Dolby Digital, when I had it optimally configured it was spooky - the headphones totally disappeared. Sadly, there was extreme regression in later drivers for the card and I don't remember which driver set it was that worked the best ...
   
  For myself, I consider music reproduction being the most important factor, I would probably have appreciated the ZxR more than you


----------



## Fegefeuer

I'm interested in trying out the Z series. 
   
  Since I have an excellent DAC already: Does the Z series have the ability to output everything over SPDIF like the X-Fi cards?


----------



## genclaymore

It should have the output Stereo mix thru SPDIF in it's control panel, like the Recon3D does. That option will do just that.


----------



## Fegefeuer

Yeah, bit-tech review states the same.
   
  I want to try it vs. my HD, unfortunately the installation of the Z will possibly overwrite the OpenAL settings unless the files come with different names.
   
  WIth the Essence STX it was pretty easy, I just installed UNI Xonar without GSX support (no open AL for Asus then) and could test Dolby Headphone vs. CMSS-3D without any sort of installation. With regular Asus drivers OpenAL/Alchemy wouldn't work with the Titanium HD.


----------



## Anarion

genclaymore said:


> It should have the output Stereo mix thru SPDIF in it's control panel, like the Recon3D does. That option will do just that.


Or basically you just set it as default sound device and that's it (like with other outputs), everything plays through it. It's a standard windows feature. But yeah, that option in CP should do the job too (and in that case analogue out ports should keep working too).


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

Quote: 





xeizo said:


> Interesting, Realtek do have a rather mature solution by now - the ALC892 in one of my boxes sounds quite ok, if not esoteric. Best integrated I've had was the SoundMax 2000. But choosing the ZxR seems like a massive overkill if you're mostly/only into virtual surround. You should have opted for the much cheaper Z instead, if you were just curious over Creatives implementation of surround. It has the exact same surround features. All the extra efforts on the ZxR have been spent on improving pure stereo-sound, which seems to be of no particular use in your case.
> 
> Best surround I've had was with the very cheap Xonar DG and Dolby Digital, when I had it optimally configured it was spooky - the headphones totally disappeared. Sadly, there was extreme regression in later drivers for the card and I don't remember which driver set it was that worked the best ...
> 
> For myself, I consider music reproduction being the most important factor, I would probably have appreciated the ZxR more than you


 
   
  Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the "hifi" sound of the ZxR, the instruments and everything has more body to them, the highs are slightly clearer etc, I'm just a little disappointed that I can't get the nice open soundstage of the Realtek onboard as long as I use 5.1 speakers there. 5.1 speakers with headphones is a common practice, it gives better positioning/soundstaging so why not? This goes for both gaming and music listening. However with the Creative driver software it seems to not work as nicely as with Realtek. If you could only hear how natural the soundstage is on the Realtek when using 5.1 speakers ("Front left and right" and "Surround speakers" checked, rest like center, subwoofer etc boxed unticked). While testing with UT3 it's like a perfectly working virtual surround sound where I can even locate and position enemies based on the gunfights from very far away with lots of walls in-between. I can pretty well both estimate distance as well as direction the sound comes from and even if it comes a bit below or a bit above, it's extremely accurate and the positioning turns extremely smoothly as I turn the character in 360 degrees so it sounds very natural.

 With music it also gives a larger soundstage with more space in-between the instruments and positioning is very good. So going to the ZxR I really enjoy how the invidual instruments, vocals etc sounds like but the whole presentation sounds slightly dull and closed-in compared to the Realtek. I tried with all possible software speaker configs in ZxR series but it doesn't quite seem to work the same as with Realtek.
   
  I said I don't like stereo sound because I don't want sound focused on two sides but I want to feel I'm in middle of the music with everything else surrounding me so it's like a 3D field or that it doesn't sound like music is coming from a certain direction but that it sounds like I'm in the same room with the band. The SBX on ZxR didn't work too well for me either and it certainly has a slight SQ impact too. The 5.1 surround config on Realtek onboard however is 100% SQ-impactless so it actually increase SQ as the surround sound is greatly enhanced.


----------



## Radical_53

Maybe I'm overlooking something but you are using multichannel music, like live concerts and such? 
  I never used the upmix these cards offer but the downmix has always suited me reasonably well.


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

Quote: 





radical_53 said:


> Maybe I'm overlooking something but you are using multichannel music, like live concerts and such?
> I never used the upmix these cards offer but the downmix has always suited me reasonably well.


 
   
  Nah not multichannel music, just normally recorded stereo music that I also prefer how it sounds if using 5.1 speakers (With Realtek onboard, with the Creative card 5.1 speaker config doesn't do much difference at all for the music compared to using stereo).


----------



## Radical_53

As far as I know it should sound just the same, at least if it's "stereo" music. I don't think there's any upsampling being done, unless you're using something in addition to do that (I think there's a Foobar plugin for example). 
  It would do that if you had 5.1 speakers plugged into the card but not otherwise (maybe I'm missing the obvious here?).


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

Quote: 





radical_53 said:


> As far as I know it should sound just the same, at least if it's "stereo" music. I don't think there's any upsampling being done, unless you're using something in addition to do that (I think there's a Foobar plugin for example).
> It would do that if you had 5.1 speakers plugged into the card but not otherwise (maybe I'm missing the obvious here?).


 
   
  I don't know what everything is happening with the signal but I know it doesn't sound the same, well on the Creative card it does but my experience with Creative cards is that their software side "speaker config" always worked a bit different compared to other manufacturer's offerings. There is for example this channel test in both Realtek software and Creative and with the Creative rear & front speakers sounded the same when set to 5.1 but with Realtek it's like there is some kind of HRTF tweaks, there you can actually tell very clearly that the front speakers sounds like coming from in front of you while the rear speakers really do sound like coming from behind you. The same thing can be heard compared with stereo music too when comparing stereo vs 5.1 speaker config on the Realtek, with 5.1 there is more surround processing going on, music surrounds you better, the soundstage is more open / "free-roaming" and I really like this, so much that I'm not sure that I'm even gonna keep the ZxR card even if the instrument and all do sound fantastic, it's just so hard to overlook the soundstage differences as I'm a fan of listening to music with more surround-like experience.


----------



## Radical_53

I think I know what you mean as I've experienced that front/back problem also. In the worst case it even sounded like the singer was standing behind me... 
  To get rid of it I swapped out some of the opamps I was using and it helped to get positioning back to where I thought it should be.
  The Realtek effect you're talking about is quite nice thouh. I like to use that on my laptops.


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

Well I will soon upgrade computer as Intel Haswell CPUs get launched so I will probably hunt for the latest & best Realtek chip featured mobo I can get a hold of in case this surround sound is something exclusive to Realtek driver software. I saw there's now a new ALC1150 chip with 115dB SNR, which is pretty damn good spec for onboard (probably not accurate but yea).
   
http://www.bit-tech.net/news/hardware/2013/05/03/asrock-purity-sound/1 (supports up to 600 ohm xD)


----------



## Fegefeuer

First short Soundblaster ZxR impressions:
   
  SBX is *NOT* a relabel of THX Tru Studio Pro. It is much better, especially in Soundstage (both depth and width) and by the fact that it renders much more accurately while being very truthful to the source compared to other solutions, especially CMSS-3D. You'll appreciate this a lot. 
   
*One important thing I found out is that if you use OpenAL in any form, if "naturally" or through Alchemy, SBX is turned off* and you don't get 7.1/5.1 downmix but a "standard" 2.0 headphone mix. *Maybe it doesn't happen to you* but it does in my case. I tested it with Mirror's Edge, Prey, Guild Wars, Bioshock. After getting suspicious during my testing I went ALT+TAB onto the desktop and opening the SBX panel I found out that SBX was turned off. I turned it on again, switched back to the game and voilá, Everything working wonderfully and actually quite good.
   
  I am positively surprised by this new card and while I haven't studied older games enough to make a final overall conclusion (regarding OpenAL) I advise everyone in search for a new gaming card to get a Z-series card before anything else, depending on the amplifier needs.


----------



## alphawolff

I recently bought the normal Z to replace my aging xonar DG to use with my HD 598's.
   
  Problem is, inside the control panel there is supposed to be a 32ohm and 600hm setting. ---> http://i.imgur.com/Jf4Soc3.jpg
   
  But mine doesn't give me the option.  ---> http://i.imgur.com/HCTm5vB.png
   
  Does anyone have an idea why? The question was asked earlier in this thread, but it never got resolved.


----------



## kenammo

Quote: 





alphawolff said:


> I recently bought the normal Z to replace my aging xonar DG to use with my HD 598's.
> 
> Problem is, inside the control panel there is supposed to be a 32ohm and 600hm setting. ---> http://i.imgur.com/Jf4Soc3.jpg
> 
> ...


 

 Hi alpha,
   
  I believe this option is only available on the ZXR Control Panel, as discussed in this thread:
   
http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=18476297


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

A little update on SBX

 SBX seems to work way better as long as "stereo" speakers are set in windows control panel. Obviously needs "enable audio enhancements" in the Advanced tab to work but worth pointing out. Stereo speaker config + headphones and it works very well for me. The ideal Surround value for me is 91%, it sounds most natural with the positioning and the most suitable width. Even music sounds very good with it for my taste (again only with the ideal surround-% value set) and there's no noteworthy sound quality impact worth pointing out unless using a weird surround value, it gets a little louder so you have to take that into account if trying to A/B the differences. With 5.1 speakers set in windows control panel it had a noticeable sound quality impact and didn't work as good with the positioning.
   
  I would even go as far as to say the SBX when using stereo speakers + headphones + ideal surround value reminds me a lot of my carefully tweaked Dolby Headphone foobar2000 config, it also greatly enhances surround sound + expands the soundstage a bit without taking any noteworthy SQ hit due to counter EQ adjustments + carefully tweaked channel mixer settings.
   
  I'm still unsure about the soundstage differences comparing Realtek with 5.1 speakers but the ZxR has like a very big noticeable difference sound quality wise and the biggest difference is probably in the lower mids with the Q40 headphones, with the Realtek chip it sounds as if there's a slight lower-mid recession and instruments and mids can sound somewhat "skinny" unless using ZO2.1 amp which adds some weight to the lower-mids as well while with the ZxR it becomes almost too forward there getting on the border of muddy as a result, muddy is obviously an overexaggeration but it's just to express there's a very big difference there, all instruments as a result tend to sound much heavier on the ZxR card.


----------



## Oubadah (Dec 22, 2019)

.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





fegefeuer said:


> First short Soundblaster ZxR impressions:
> 
> SBX is *NOT* a relabel of THX Tru Studio Pro. It is much better, especially in Soundstage (both depth and width) and by the fact that it renders much more accurately while being very truthful to the source compared to other solutions, especially CMSS-3D. You'll appreciate this a lot.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Now I'm really intrigued, especially since THX was a grave disappointment to me...but SBX surround shutting off every time I fire up anything that uses OpenAL would get very annoying, very quickly. X-Fi cards may have their quirks like resetting volume, but CMSS-3D Headphone switching on or off without me explicitly setting it was never one of them.
   
  Can you test it with Battlefield 2? X-Fi, Ultra High, EAX on in the sound settings, of course. I'm hoping they fixed it up so that EAX functions like it's supposed to instead of reverbing things that wouldn't be reverberated on a real X-Fi card in Game Mode.
   
  Oh, and if it's a 7.1 downmix in OpenAL, then it's doing it wrong. OpenAL games (and DirectSound3D games wrapped with ALchemy) should NEVER sound like a mere emulated 7.1 speaker system, but more like a direct binaural HRTF mix, true 3D sound.


----------



## Anarion

fegefeuer said:


> *One important thing I found out is that if you use OpenAL in any form, if "naturally" or through Alchemy, SBX is turned off* and you don't get 7.1/5.1 downmix but a "standard" 2.0 headphone mix. *Maybe it doesn't happen to you* but it does in my case.



Makes sense. At least to my ears, they use HRTF in OpenAL (and obviously if you use Alchemy) when "hardware acceleration" (when using Creative's implementation instead of Generic Software) is enabled regardless of what settings you use. It also sound like elevation filter and macrofx (or what every they were called in X-Fi drivers) are enabled because Oblivion sound as buggy as with X-Fi when those two are enabled but you can hear things above and below you in Mirror's Edge.

The sound also changes if you use headphone mode or line out, I prefer lien out because the sound stage is much better. It's a shame that you can't use standard stereo mode when using headphone out and in that case you're stuck with headphone settings (which makes Mirror's Edge sound worse in my opinion).


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

Quote: 





anarion said:


> The sound also changes if you use headphone mode or line out, I prefer lien out because the sound stage is much better. It's a shame that you can't use standard stereo mode when using headphone out and in that case you're stuck with headphone settings (which makes Mirror's Edge sound worse in my opinion).


 
   
  Yay finally some1 who agrees with me on that. ^^ I always found Creative's headphone setting to have less than ideal soundstage/positioning. Why can't they leave it alone and don't do any processing and have headphone sounding as "stereo" speaker setting which I believe is "untweaked/untouched" from the windows own audio handling system. If I was to criticize the Z-series it would be the inability to pick speaker settings when using headphone out.
   
  Still unsure if I will keep the ZxR or not, the soundstaging doesn't work out as nicely as I'd want it to be, it doesn't stand up against Realtek using 5.1 speaker setting which for me works brilliant with pretty much any game I play.


----------



## alphawolff

kenammo said:


> Hi alpha,
> 
> I believe this option is only available on the ZXR Control Panel, as discussed in this thread:
> 
> http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=18476297




Ah, that stinks.


With the HD 598's sitting between 50-80 ohms or I just wanted to make sure it wasn't on the 600ohm setting, guess it doesn't matter though.


Thanks for the link, appeciate it.


----------



## Fegefeuer

namelesspfg said:


> Now I'm really intrigued, especially since THX was a grave disappointment to me...but SBX surround shutting off every time I fire up anything that uses OpenAL would get very annoying, very quickly. X-Fi cards may have their quirks like resetting volume, but CMSS-3D Headphone switching on or off without me explicitly setting it was never one of them.
> 
> Can you test it with Battlefield 2? X-Fi, Ultra High, EAX on in the sound settings, of course. I'm hoping they fixed it up so that EAX functions like it's supposed to instead of reverbing things that wouldn't be reverberated on a real X-Fi card in Game Mode.
> 
> Oh, and if it's a 7.1 downmix in OpenAL, then it's doing it wrong. OpenAL games (and DirectSound3D games wrapped with ALchemy) should NEVER sound like a mere emulated 7.1 speaker system, but more like a direct binaural HRTF mix, true 3D sound.


 
   
  Hi,
   
  downmix was the wrong but more the lazy word. Of course CMSS-3D is able to render and position each of 128 voices seperately into the soundspace and not just emulating virtual speakers.
   
  I think I found out the issue with SBX. My OpenAL Installation was messed up due to the X-Fi not removing everything with its uninstall procedure, especially OpenAL library references. Even worse was how I couldn't update the drivers because the older update manager was still active. Now with cleaning everything by hand (dlls, folders, reg) and doing a new install my problem seems to have gone. The problem I had was unsmooth panning in OpenAL/DS3D games where turning the camera by 360° infront of a sound location (like a bonfire in Guild Wars e.g.) would have a stereo effect, meaning that the "ear" away from the fire would be like deaf within a rather unrealistic angle.
   
  Unfortunately I don't have Battlefield 2. I'll keep an eye out for a Amazon.com deal sometime. Until then I only have Mirror's Edge, Guild Wars 1, Medieval Total War 2, FEAR 1 to test. Maybe we could find a sequence or level/chapter to check X-Fi vs. Z(xR) if you have one of these games.
   
  Since CMSS-3D lowers the bass department by a noticable amount I equalized the card down to similar levels to see if the bass masks details or if the rendering is generally not accurate, and it helped with the pinpoint accuracy or positioning. This is however nothing new. People buy the AD700 sometimes just for sound whoring due to its weak bass. Then there's the factor of the signal suffering much more under CMSS-3D...


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





fegefeuer said:


> downmix was the wrong but more the lazy word. Of course CMSS-3D is able to render and position each of 128 voices seperately into the soundspace and not just emulating virtual speakers.
> 
> I think I found out the issue with SBX. My OpenAL Installation was messed up due to the X-Fi not removing everything with its uninstall procedure, especially OpenAL library references. Even worse was how I couldn't update the drivers because the older update manager was still active. Now with cleaning everything by hand (dlls, folders, reg) and doing a new install my problem seems to have gone. The problem I had was unsmooth panning in OpenAL/DS3D games where turning the camera by 360° infront of a sound location (like a bonfire in Guild Wars e.g.) would have a stereo effect, meaning that the "ear" away from the fire would be like deaf within a rather unrealistic angle.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Creative drivers can be such a mess...thank goodness for driver cleaners!
   
  You don't have BF2? That's a surprise, given that it was pretty much one of THE multiplayer FPSs to have back around 2004/2005...but it should be pretty cheap these days, like "$5 with expansions" cheap.
   
  I do have Mirror's Edge, however. We could probably work out a test with that. No Total War, Guild Wars, or F.E.A.R. in my library, though...
   
  How about some Unreal Tournament on the game testing list, then? 1999 (with Old Unreal multimedia patch that adds an OpenAL renderer), 2004, UT3, take your pick.


----------



## Fegefeuer

I used to have it many years ago and then I gave it away, playing Guild Wars 1 solely for quite a long time. I don't keep games for long (except mandatorily on steam) and I don't buy oldies back since I prefer to remember them how great they were in their days and with 2 consoles on the side there's a lot to play and I would be lucky if I could finish one game in a month. 
   
  Unfortunately I "missed" the BF2 deal on amazon.com. 20 Dollars is a bit too much just to test the audio. 
  I have UT3 though in Steam, I'll try to set it up later tonight.


----------



## SoFGR

Quote: 





fegefeuer said:


> I used to have it many years ago and then I gave it away, playing Guild Wars 1 solely for quite a long time. I don't keep games for long (except mandatorily on steam) and I don't buy oldies back since I prefer to remember them how great they were in their days and with 2 consoles on the side there's a lot to play and I would be lucky if I could finish one game in a month.
> 
> Unfortunately I "missed" the BF2 deal on amazon.com. 20 Dollars is a bit too much just to test the audio.
> I have UT3 though in Steam, I'll try to set it up later tonight.


 
   
  get this one, same engine and full openAL support  
   
http://www.amazon.com/Battlefield-2142-DVD-ROM-Pc/dp/B000GPXS9O/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1369659105&sr=8-2&keywords=battlefield+2142
   
  go to the  audio options, tick  "ultra-high" quality and  "creative x-fi"  audio renderer, i hope that these options will not appear greyed out or anything  
   
  You needed a real x-fi back in the day for BF2/BF2142 set  to "game mode", or else the ulta high quality setting  was locked.
   
  If you manage to get it working don't forget to test for SCP ( sparke crackle popping )  before uninstalling the game, x-fi users always complained about SCP when they were  near an orbital strike / badly damaged Titan.
   
  Oh and about  UT3, don't forget to enable "hardware openAL" and play like   2 full hours or 3 so  you can test for stability, the game used to crash  very often when it was  running  on x-fi powered systems


----------



## Anarion

rpgwizard said:


> Yay finally some1 who agrees with me on that. ^^ I always found Creative's headphone setting to have less than ideal soundstage/positioning. Why can't they leave it alone and don't do any processing and have headphone sounding as "stereo" speaker setting which I believe is "untweaked/untouched" from the windows own audio handling system. If I was to criticize the Z-series it would be the inability to pick speaker settings when using headphone out.


Yeah, for that very reason I never used headphone mode with Forte (and Titanium). Windows set to stereo and speakers and stereo speakers from Creative CP sounded the best. Really annoying that I can't use the headphone out without messing the sound in OpenAL games.


----------



## Axaion

Went away from headphone port, it was nice to have an amp, but the forced 5.1 annoyed me to hell.
Got HD598's so its not like theres a difference in volume, and it seems to drive them just fine on the line-out.. which can do stereo by default <3


----------



## Radical_53

Quote: 





anarion said:


> Yeah, for that very reason I never used headphone mode with Forte (and Titanium). Windows set to stereo and speakers and stereo speakers from Creative CP sounded the best. Really annoying that I can't use the headphone out without messing the sound in OpenAL games.


 
  But you aren't using any of the surround simulation modes then, correct? If the game has a nice headphone/stereo mode on its own that might even be an interesting thing to try.


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

Quote: 





axaion said:


> Went away from headphone port, it was nice to have an amp, but the forced 5.1 annoyed me to hell.
> Got HD598's so its not like theres a difference in volume, and it seems to drive them just fine on the line-out.. which can do stereo by default <3


 
   
  I thought it sounded pretty bad out of the line-out (we're speaking the RCA outputs right?) Much more muffled with much less treble presence sounding compared to the headphone port. Granted you got better soundstaging/positioning but it didn't seem worth the SQ hit to me. But yea if you got a nice external amp that's probably better anyway.
   
  I'm pretty sure I won't end up using this ZxR card, for the price paid it doesn't fully satisfy my needs, why should I pay nearly 200 EUR if I'm not fully satisfied with the source and possibly pretty equally satisfied with the Realtek onboard (don't get me wrong I can hear the ZxR sounds significantly higher quality but it doesn't work as nicely when it comes to soundstage so it's like you win some and lose some so more like a sidegrade)


----------



## Anarion

radical_53 said:


> But you aren't using any of the surround simulation modes then, correct? If the game has a nice headphone/stereo mode on its own that might even be an interesting thing to try.


CMSS-3D works in stereo mode too, it sounds different much more open. With Zx, you get HRTF in standard stereo mode too in OpenAL/Alchemy games (difference to headphone and stereo mode is pretty much the same as with X-Fi too).

This is how CMSS-3D sounds in stereo mode (no headphone mode):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GH5DsUJpY8&hd=1
You can clearly hear things that are behind you. If you'd use headphone mode, everything would sound like it's happening in your head.


----------



## Axaion

Sorry, should have specified that i got the regular Z, not the ZxR


----------



## Anarion

rpgwizard said:


> I thought it sounded pretty bad out of the line-out (we're speaking the RCA outputs right?) Much more muffled with much less treble presence sounding compared to the headphone port. Granted you got better soundstaging/positioning but it didn't seem worth the SQ hit to me. But yea if you got a nice external amp that's probably better anyway.
> 
> I'm pretty sure I won't end up using this ZxR card, for the price paid it doesn't fully satisfy my needs, why should I pay nearly 200 EUR if I'm not fully satisfied with the source and possibly pretty equally satisfied with the Realtek onboard (don't get me wrong I can hear the ZxR sounds significantly higher quality but it doesn't work as nicely when it comes to soundstage so it's like you win some and lose some so more like a sidegrade)



I highly recommend that you do not install the speaker setup thingy and double check that you have stereo speakers selected from windows audo control panel. Speaker setup thing totally messed up soundstage when I used line out with headphones.


----------



## Radical_53

While I'm still using a Titanium HD I must say that, even thouh audio creation mode does sound better, a stereo source being played through CMSS-3D doesn't sound any different than without the feature.
  I'm not talking about the CMSS feature in entertainment mode but the one in gaming mode.
  It shouldn't sound any different as the feature itself shouldn't add anything in that particular situation. Should


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

Quote: 





anarion said:


> I highly recommend that you do not install the speaker setup thingy and double check that you have stereo speakers selected from windows audo control panel. Speaker setup thing totally messed up soundstage when I used line out with headphones.


 
   
  Is that an option during setup? You got me curious. With Realtek there's no separate "software speaker config" and they are simply using the Windows control panel settings inside the Realtek software configuration panel. So if I don't have to install that Creative speaker config thing I'd probably be able to get that nicely working soundstage with this card too I reckon.


----------



## Anarion

rpgwizard said:


> Is that an option during setup? You got me curious. With Realtek there's no separate "software speaker config" and they are simply using the Windows control panel settings. So if I don't have to install that Creative speaker config thing I'd probably be able to get that nicely working soundstage with this card too I reckon.



Yeah, during installation. It made difference at least in my case. I removed the driver completely before reinstalling it without that speaker setup.



radical_53 said:


> While I'm still using a Titanium HD I must say that, even thouh audio creation mode does sound better, a stereo source being played through CMSS-3D doesn't sound any different than without the feature.
> I'm not talking about the CMSS feature in entertainment mode but the one in gaming mode.
> It shouldn't sound any different as the feature itself shouldn't add anything in that particular situation. Should


I'm not talking about just any stereo source, I'm talking about gaming mode and OpenAL (and Alchemy) games when cmss-3d is enabled in Creative CP. Music is obviously pure stereo without any mixing to mess it up.


----------



## Radical_53

Oh ok, my mistake. It has been a while since I played the last game that used "real" hardware acceleration (guess that was CoD 2, looks great with 3D and ambient occlusion btw  ).


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

Quote: 





anarion said:


> Yeah, during installation. It made difference at least in my case. I removed the driver completely before reinstalling it without that speaker setup.


 
   
  OK, will try when I get home.  I hope to be able to get nice results also with the headphone out though because only using that output would make the purchase worth it/make any sense to my ears.
   
  TBH, I remember at least one person commenting on Newegg comments that he thought it sounded best without the driver package installed, perhaps that was the same case for that person.


----------



## Axaion

as for the fix to it resetting to 5.1.. just reinstalled windows and now it dosent work for me anymore
God damnit creative.


----------



## Maker

Quote: 





anarion said:


> I highly recommend that you do not install the speaker setup thingy and double check that you have stereo speakers selected from windows audo control panel. Speaker setup thing totally messed up soundstage when I used line out with headphones.


 

 So without the "speaker setup thing" the headphones out is totally ok? No reduced soundstage anymore?


----------



## SoFGR

i like the positioning much better in the first  part of the comparison,  am i deaf or what ?   
   
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HHKHJmTytQ


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

Quote: 





sofgr said:


> i like the positioning much better in the first  part of the comparison,  am i deaf or what ?
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HHKHJmTytQ


 
   
  I think in TF2 it is a bit better but in L4D2 SBX wins. Would be nice to know exact settings used though, for example installing the "speaker setup" or whatever it's called during installation results in worse positioning/soundstaging, also it depens how the speakers are set in windows control panel.... too many variables for me to trust any1 but myself when it comes to this kind of testing.  I'm the kind of guy that don't assume anything to work like it says, I try and verify all possible configs no matter what it says in the instructions etc.

 I decided to put up my ZxR card for sale though as I wasn't still 100% convinced on soundstage no matter how I set it up.


----------



## Anarion

maker said:


> So without the "speaker setup thing" the headphones out is totally ok? No reduced soundstage anymore?



I guess it shouldn't make difference if you're using headphone out but if you use line out, it makes difference (to my ears). The reason why is the speaker position correction thingy, it will obviously mess up headphone sound image pretty badly. One should note that when connecting it to external source too using line out (not sure if it does the adjustments for digital out too, I assume it does). If you use headphones be sure to set windows to stereo mode too if you want pure stereo.


----------



## SoFGR

Quote: 





rpgwizard said:


> I think in TF2 it is a bit better but in L4D2 SBX wins. Would be nice to know exact settings used though, for example installing the "speaker setup" or whatever it's called during installation results in worse positioning/soundstaging, also it depens how the speakers are set in windows control panel.... too many variables for me to trust any1 but myself when it comes to this kind of testing.  I'm the kind of guy that don't assume anything to work like it says, I try and verify all possible configs no matter what it says in the instructions etc.
> 
> I decided to put up my ZxR card for sale though as I wasn't still 100% convinced on soundstage no matter how I set it up.


 
   
  the uploader said that you should NOT use SBX surround, just the game+windows to 5.1 while using the creative panel "headphones" setting 
   
  I liked cmss3d better in both games, there's no way i could have played competitevely with that kind of a soundstage in l4d2, we need a better comparison vid, Fegefeuer where are you ?


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

Quote: 





sofgr said:


> the uploader said that you should NOT use SBX surround, just the game+windows to 5.1 while using the creative panel "headphones" setting
> 
> I liked cmss3d better in both games, there's no way i could have played competitevely with that kind of a soundstage in l4d2, we need a better comparison vid, Fegefeuer where are you ?


 
   
  I got the best result using Stereo in windows control panel + headphones + SBX surround set to 91%. At least the surround worked _A LOT_ better if using stereo speakers. Also "enable enhancements" should be checked or else it won't work. If not using the "Surround" setting then 5.1 speakers are better to use but yea gaming wise I got slightly better results with stereo speakers (cpanel) + headphones (creative) + surround set to 91% (very picky about value set, for me 91% clearly sounded the best, the stage seemed best positioned and natural sounding for me then).


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





sofgr said:


> i like the positioning much better in the first  part of the comparison,  am i deaf or what ?
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HHKHJmTytQ


 
   
  The TF2 segment definitely sounds more positionally accurate with CMSS-3D, though it's more of a toss-up in the L4D2 segments.
   
  SBX is noticeably bassier, though. Nothing I can't correct for with a little bass boost/EQ.


----------



## SoFGR

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> The TF2 segment definitely sounds more positionally accurate with CMSS-3D, though it's more of a toss-up in the L4D2 segments.
> 
> SBX is noticeably bassier, though. Nothing I can't correct for with a little bass boost/EQ.


 
  look @ the  comments, i think that he just  set games/windows to 5.1 + his  card to "headphones", SBX  surround was disabled on purpose :S
   
  edit : just saw your own comment, I've tried the ALchemy tweak myself several times in l4d2, positioning was similar to the usual configuration ( 5.1 game 5.1 windows  headphone cmss3d enabled ) but i had to set the game audio to "headphones" instead of "5.1", sounds were a bit funny too, very muffled and "different"  especially the gun shots, maybe they scrapped legacy surround  support  on  puprpose :S


----------



## Fegefeuer

"SBX Surround off" with TF2 as in the YT video is ok/normal during "legacy surround 1" due to OpenAL/DS3D (automatically), I am not sure if the uploader did everything right during setup. In any other game you would get stereo if you'd disable SBX. Like BF3 for instance. Just testing loudspeaker signals in the windows audio panel (5.1) is enough to notice that of course.
   
  SBX is bassier than CMSS-3D where the bass is noticably toned down, not surprising. With the Z(xR) panel you can correct this perfectly for your taste. I wouldn't touch it for Singleplayer, I understand it for competitive gameplay.
   
SBX Is superior to Dolby Headphone. It trumps it in every department plus it gives legacy support which no DHP card does right. If you're on PC then SBX is the way to go. That's not 100% of the truth however:
   
  CMSS-3D is old and outdated for modern times, it affects SQ and tonality negatively. "Tin can" is one of the best fitting terms. It gets worse the better your setup is. I am using the HD 800, the more forgiving (and funnier) Signature DJ and the PC360. The effect on the SQ is noticable on every decent headphone. SBX is much better in this regard. It's quite a difference.
   
  CMSS-3D however has hardware acceleration that Creative is lazy to do for the Core3D since it only affects older titles. Dissapointing. Nvidia has a very nice PDF regarding GPU accelerated audio. We don't know what the future brings. I suspect with PS4 and Xbox One definitely having hardware audio some change is bound to happen on PC later.
   
  Anyway, I suspect the X-Fi cards to be better in older titles but I want to clarify this once and for all, meaning WE should do a roundup of tests. 
   
  First we need a games list and a testing/evaluation method, like timedemos or gameplay/missions/levels that are at least decent in reproducing. I love the escape scene in MEdge with the helicopter shooting bullets behind me, over me, left, right and before me but the helicopter gunner is not reliable in his shooting. You need a few runs to have him shoot around you.
   
  The tests should include EQ since CMSS-3D equalizes very differently and we should not get fooled by either card/solution. I suggest turning down bass for the SBX and up highs less aggressively. I can't compare EQ with the Titanium HD as I had enough o a creative mess already.
   
  We could test the following games:
   
Bioshock 1
  Mirror's Edge 
  Counterstrike GO
  Unreal Tournament 3
  Medieval Total War 2 has great sound but SBX is using elevation/macro FX both ALWAS ON, killing the experience. X-Fi with both on was the same horrendous experience.
  Battlefield 2 only if I can get a cheap origin download.
   
  Nameless?


----------



## SoFGR

Quote: 





fegefeuer said:


> "SBX Surround off" with TF2 as in the YT video is ok/normal during "legacy surround 1" due to OpenAL/DS3D (automatically), I am not sure if the uploader did everything right during setup. In any other game you would get stereo if you'd disable SBX. Like BF3 for instance. Just testing loudspeaker signals in the windows audio panel (5.1) is enough to notice that of course.
> 
> SBX is bassier than CMSS-3D where the bass is noticably toned down, not surprising. With the Z(xR) panel you can correct this perfectly for your taste. I wouldn't touch it for Singleplayer, I understand it for competitive gameplay.
> 
> ...


 
  do you mind sharing your exact sbx pro studio settings plz ?


----------



## Maker

Quote: 





fegefeuer said:


> SBX Is superior to Dolby Headphone. It trumps it in every department plus it gives legacy support which no DHP card does right. If you're on PC then SBX is the way to go. That's not 100% of the truth however:


 
   
  Is SBX superior even in soundstage? People are reporting that Z serie makes the soundstage much smaller on headphone output. I am trying to figure out whether I should pick Xonar or SB Z. Due to the soundstage issue I think Xonar with Dolby headphones is better, isnt it?


----------



## genclaymore

Depends on the person, I don't like Tru Studio pro that much, I found Dolby Headphone config correctly while using DH1 Ref mode working better for me. Then SBX and CMSS3D headphone.But I found it depends on the headphones I was using.  When I had the AKG 702's I liked Dobly headphone alot more then CMSS3D headphone, Where when I had DT880 pro-250 I liked CMSS3D headphone more then DH. Tru Studio pro seem to be too echoly for me but then It could be the settings, as i still trying out the difference settings.


----------



## Axaion

genclaymore said:


> Depends on the person, I don't like Tru Studio pro that much, I found Dolby Headphone config correctly while using DH1 Ref mode working better for me. Then SBX and CMSS3D headphone.But I found it depends on the headphones I was using.  When I had the AKG 702's I liked Dobly headphone alot more then CMSS3D headphone, Where when I had DT880 pro-250 I liked CMSS3D headphone more then DH. Tru Studio pro seem to be too echoly for me but then It could be the settings, as i still trying out the difference settings.



Thru studio is not the same as SBX Surround apparently, so it cant really be compared like that
@maker, As far as i know, its just the line out being ruined by speaker setup, the headphone port is fine, if you like 5.1, its annoying if you dont, as it resets on reboot and sleep to 5.1, but stereo on it is almost as good as line-out stereo (or better if you dont have a dedicated amp, and your phones need a bit of amp)


----------



## watsaname

I just picked up my sound blaster Z on Saturday and so far I am enjoying it, I think. When I use SBX surround, I don't know really what to think. I feel that it "liven" up everything I am listening to except for VOIP, it kind of makes it sound bad. 
   
  What exactly is the use of scout mode. I read the description of it and it just says it makes footsteps sound louder for when you are playing games. When I use it it just seems to turn everything up to very loud levels. Also when you turn it on, it seems to turn off SBX. Are they basically the same thing, just that Scout Mode are specific setting or what? If that is the case why are there profiles for different types of games?
   
  I am using a pair of AD700s btw.


----------



## genclaymore

Quote: 





axaion said:


> Thru studio is not the same as SBX Surround apparently, so it cant really be compared like that
> @maker, As far as i know, its just the line out being ruined by speaker setup, the headphone port is fine, if you like 5.1, its annoying if you dont, as it resets on reboot and sleep to 5.1, but stereo on it is almost as good as line-out stereo (or better if you dont have a dedicated amp, and your phones need a bit of amp)


 
   
  I wasn't talking about the 3rd party app that onboards has  the option of using that is limited, I was talking about the Tru Studio pro that is on the Recon 3D card's which is the same exact thing the Creative Z series cards has. The only different is the Z cards has it label as SBX Pro instead of Tru studio pro. I uploaded a pic to show you what i mean. The Z XBX pro can't be that much different then the Recon3D settings for it.


----------



## Axaion

genclaymore said:


> I wasn't talking about the 3rd party app that onboards has  the option of using that is limited, I was talking about the Tru Studio pro that is on the Recon 3D card's which is the same exact thing the Creative Z series cards has. The only different is the Z cards has it label as SBX Pro instead of Tru studio pro. I uploaded a pic to show you what i mean. The Z XBX pro can't be that much different then the Recon3D settings for it.



from all comments ive seen of people who tried both, it is not the same, despite the UI being the same but with different colors


----------



## Maker

Quote: 





axaion said:


> @maker, As far as i know, its just the line out being ruined by speaker setup, the headphone port is fine, if you like 5.1, its annoying if you dont, as it resets on reboot and sleep to 5.1, but stereo on it is almost as good as line-out stereo (or better if you dont have a dedicated amp, and your phones need a bit of amp)


 
   
  from what I understand you can not set he headphones out to stereo. You are forced to use 5.1 which lacks soundstage. Am I wrong?


----------



## Axaion

maker said:


> from what I understand you can not set he headphones out to stereo. You are forced to use 5.1 which lacks soundstage. Am I wrong?



yes, youre wrong, you can set it to stereo/2.0 in windows sound, but it resets back to 5.1 when you reboot or wake from sleep (for 90% or so of users.)


----------



## kenammo

If I understand some of the postings above correctly, some of you are having problems "locking in" your speakers/headphones setting as a default. After reboot, your settings revert to something else. In my ZXR Control Panel, I use the "tools" button (yellow highlight) to open another menu:
   

   
  I then choose my default configuration accordingly. It stays locked in after reboots, etc:
   

   
  Hope this helps anyone who might be stuck. Cheers!


----------



## Axaion

kenammo said:


> If I understand some of the postings above correctly, some of you are having problems "locking in" your speakers/headphones setting as a default. After reboot, your settings revert to something else. In my ZXR Control Panel, I use the "tools" button (yellow highlight) to open another menu:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And after all that if you go into Windows Sound, and right click your main output device (for me it just says speakers on Sound Blaster Z) and hit configure, its on 5.1 and not 2.0/stereo, thats the issue were having, you can set it to to 2.0/stereo, but once you reboot/wave from sleep, it defaults back to 5.1 with the headphone port


----------



## Maker

Quote: 





axaion said:


> yes, youre wrong, you can set it to stereo/2.0 in windows sound, but it resets back to 5.1 when you reboot or wake from sleep (for 90% or so of users.)


 
   
  Ok, I was wrong with this. But even if you set the 2.0, the sound still is not a pure stereo from what I understand. More people stated it really lacks soundstage --->
   
   
  Quote: 





anarion said:


> The sound also changes if you use headphone mode or line out, I prefer lien out because the sound stage is much better. It's a shame that you can't use standard stereo mode when using headphone out and in that case you're stuck with headphone settings (which makes Mirror's Edge sound worse in my opinion).


 
   
   and
  Quote: 





rpgwizard said:


> Yay finally some1 who agrees with me on that. ^^ I always found Creative's headphone setting to have less than ideal soundstage/positioning. Why can't they leave it alone and don't do any processing and have headphone sounding as "stereo" speaker setting which I believe is "untweaked/untouched" from the windows own audio handling system. If I was to criticize the Z-series it would be the inability to pick speaker settings when using headphone out.


----------



## Axaion

maker said:


> Ok, I was wrong with this. But even if you set the 2.0, the sound still is not a pure stereo from what I understand. More people stated it really lacks soundstage --->
> 
> 
> 
> and



I think they used the 5.1(default) option with the headphone port, althought the line-out has slightly better overall quality, so if you have an amp.. no reason to use headphone port at all


----------



## Anarion

axaion said:


> yes, youre wrong, you can set it to stereo/2.0 in windows sound, but it resets back to 5.1 when you reboot or wake from sleep (for 90% or so of users.)



Me and my brother belong in the happy 10% then. 

@Maker
It's the same difference as in X-Fi cards too. I prefer the stereo mode to headphone mode. The annoying thins is that if you use headphone out, you get the headphone mode in OpenAL games (or when you use Alchemy). Line out doesn't to that but the speaker setup messes up the sound if you use it with headphones (do not install speaker setup and it's fine).


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

Quote: 





axaion said:


> I think they used the 5.1(default) option with the headphone port, althought the line-out has slightly better overall quality, so if you have an amp.. no reason to use headphone port at all


 
   
  No, but I actually USUALLY use 5.1 in windows cpanel with all soundcards (but I tested all possible configs ofc to see which works best). The problem here for me personally is unability to pick stereo speakers in the creative config panel with headphone port. With X-Fi and Titanium HD I thought it sounded better using stereo speakers in the driver panel (this is comparable to how Realtek onboard and other soundcards also sounds soundstage wise. Creative's driver-side "headphone" setting to my ears have some kind of signal processing to it and have always hurt soundstage, it becomes a more "pure stereo" and smaller soundstage sound, more closed in sounding (compare open vs closed headphones).
   
  The line-out didn't work well for me, the digiZoid ZO is more a "signal strengthening" device rather than pure amping to my ears so if source is non-amped it won't either sound nice running out of a line-out port and certainly it was the case here so to me line-out port wouldn't work and it sounded quite bad, much worse than if I plugged ZO to the headphone port, like night and day (ZO works well double-amped, confirmed by lots of people). So using line-out I clearly don't get anywhere $200+ worth source quality, more like $20.
   
  So unability to use stereo speakers when using headphone out is what makes me wanna sell the card pretty much unless there's is a hack to fix this.


----------



## NamelessPFG

I don't know about the Z-series just yet, but in my experience with X-Fi cards, I hear NO difference between stereo speaker and headphone modes (X-Fi control panel side) when listening to music. No degradation in sound or anything.
   
  In games, on the other hand, everything starts sounding one-dimensional, with no depth, no distinction of front and rear. DS3D/OAL positioning in particular gets really thrown off.
   
  Funny how anecdotal experiences work out...


----------



## kenammo

Quote: 





axaion said:


> And after all that if you go into Windows Sound, and right click your main output device (for me it just says speakers on Sound Blaster Z) and hit configure, its on 5.1 and not 2.0/stereo, thats the issue were having, you can set it to to 2.0/stereo, but once you reboot/wave from sleep, it defaults back to 5.1 with the headphone port


 

 That is interesting. I never noticed that before. I get the same configuration display in my Windows.
   
  However, since I bypass Windows Audio completely in my configuration via WASAPI Event Style (using J River 18), I get Headphone Stereo 2.0 through my ZXR, no matter what Windows says.


----------



## Axaion

new betas got out the 3rd, gonna try them later.. creative gets an F in patch notes. >>


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

Quote: 





axaion said:


> new betas got out the 3rd, gonna try them later.. creative gets an F in patch notes. >>


 
   
  Where does one find beta drivers? Any changelog?


----------



## xeizo

Quote: 





rpgwizard said:


> Where does one find beta drivers? Any changelog?


 
   
  http://support.creative.com/downloads/welcome.aspx?nDriverType=11#type_11
   
   
  Quote: 





> File Name : SBZ_CD_L13_1_00_20_BETA.exe
> This download contains the beta software(s) and application(s) for Sound Blaster® Z-Series. For more details, read the rest of this Web release note.
> 
> _Take note of the following:_
> ...


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

Quote: 





xeizo said:


> http://support.creative.com/downloads/welcome.aspx?nDriverType=11#type_11


 
   
  The problem seems to be it's not available for all regions yet, it takes me to the finnish creative site and it doesn't have that file yet...
  
  Oh wait, it says for Z and Zx only?


----------



## turokrocks

I appreciate any help .
   
  I have the Asus P8Z77-V Deluxe with i7+16GB ram.....and 680GTX with creative ZXR.
  All was perfect , until I got a new 680 for sli, and had to change the place of the creative zxr from pciexp1_3 to PCIex1 blue1_1 (the other remaining PCIE1 blue remaing is between the sli cards)
  SO now @ random power on just befor the UEFI or the boot logo appears an irritating hiss like sound comes from the speakers connected to the ZXR, and when windows load, I can only see (in the device manager)sound blaster audio controller +sound blaster zxr dbpro , what is missing is the "sound blaster zxr" that used to show when there is no hiss .
  I changed the place of the ZXR to the PCIe1_3 between the sli cards, and after many attempts no hiss came, even tried the PCIe16_3 (the black one)and the his came back .
  The only fix was to place the card between the sli card which gave me 7 degrees increase in temp in the GPU1.
  I removed the 2nd 680gtx card and kept one and tested to see if the problem was from the sli, and the problem stayed, so I concluded that my ZXR only liked the PCIE1_3! any logic?
   This his is not"Sound/os/bit-rate related" as I mentioned the hiss starts just before the boot screen, and I have a corsair AX850 .
  The problem is strange, when the Hiss/static sound starts the Sound blaster ZXR is not in the devise manager as with the above picture only Audio controller and dbpro are there.
  So I can not chose the card as a default player as its not being "fully detected" hence no sound will be played except the hiss/static like sound.
  The card will work without the hiss sound sometimes and sometimes not! in the PCIEX_1.
  The only position where this issue is absent is between the GPU cards in PCIEX_3...I know this makes no sense but I tried every imaginable scenario, and yesterday updated to bios 2003, thinking maybe ....unfortunately, nope!
  I left the PC off for 6 hours and then turned it on and the hiss is still there , so the thermal issue is not the case.
  The only other fix , if there is hiss, is to turn it off and on again and the hiss is gone??!!


----------



## Anarion

You could try updating UEFI. No idea what's causing it.

I have P8Z77-V and Zx in top slot:






No hiss or static at all. Zero interference as far as I can tell.


----------



## turokrocks

Quote: 





anarion said:


> You could try updating UEFI. No idea what's causing it.
> 
> I have P8Z77-V and Zx in top slot:
> 
> ...


 
  How do I update the UEFI? you mean latest bios? Yesterday I updated to the latest bios 2003.
  Downgarde?


----------



## Anarion

2003 is the latest so that's all about it then... I'm using 1908 myself. But if you had the issue before upgrading, I wouldn't downgrade. These boards have UEFI so calling it BIOS for whatever reason seems pointless these days.


----------



## Axaion

Still reverts back to 5.1 with the Headphone port for me.. sigh


----------



## genclaymore

For me the Recon3D stop doing it when I put it in sleep mode once and came out of it. I doubt that will fix it for you like it has for me.


----------



## Axaion

genclaymore said:


> For me the Recon3D stop doing it when I put it in sleep mode once and came out of it. I doubt that will fix it for you like it has for me.



Aye, me too since i tried that several times

Tried this; uninstall drivers - >clean ->reboot ->clean ->reboot -Install new drivers -> reboot -> set to stereo in windows using the headphone port (set to headphones in creative control panel) -> Sleep -> wake -> it resets to 5.1
Tried that about 8 times Also tried to just set it to sleep before the first reboot after install and it made no difference
What compoments are you guys keeping?, i only have the driver and control panel installed, removed the rest, W7 x64 SP1 fully updated


----------



## turokrocks

Quote: 





anarion said:


> 2003 is the latest so that's all about it then... I'm using 1908 myself. But if you had the issue before upgrading, I wouldn't downgrade. These boards have UEFI so calling it BIOS for whatever reason seems pointless these days.


 
   
  I removed everything from my motherboard except a single 8GB module with the vertex 4 ssd, and used the on board vga, and still had the hiss issue with all the PCIEX slots except slot 1_3 & 1_4.
   
  Strangely slot 1_2 (which was off as I am using the Sata 6g E12 and this turns the slot off as they share resources) when enabled (hence disabling sata 6g E12) will only show : 

   
   
  Where the unknown audio deviceshould be sound blaster zxr! and the card will not work (no sound).
   
  may I ask you to test this slot 1_2 after enabling it from bios and see what happens.


----------



## Anarion

P8Z77-V has a bit different slot layout.


I'm not sure if the bottom slot (x16_3) even works since I have the second sata controller in use too.

By the way, it looks like I have the speaker issue too after updating the drivers. xD


----------



## turokrocks

Quote: 





anarion said:


> P8Z77-V has a bit different slot layout.
> 
> 
> I'm not sure if the bottom slot (x16_3) even works since I have the second sata controller in use too.
> ...


 
  Please can you elaborate?


----------



## Anarion

The point is, I can't use x1_2 slot because it's blocked by main GPU. PCIEX16_3 slot shares bandwidth with PCI-E 1x slots and ASMedia SATA controller (which I use at the moment). PCIEX16_3 slot is blocked pretty badly by cables and other crap so I can't really fit anything there. I also have esata & usb panel there (the slot is not in use).

I too have the issue that windows reverts to 5.1 when using headphone port. I don't think that it will do hurt anything if you do not use the SBX stuff though. In stereo mode it doesn't revert to 5.1. By the way, for headphone mode this might be working workaround:

and then select full range speakers form the next page. I haven't tested but I think those settings won't revert.


----------



## Axaion

anarion said:


> The point is, I can't use x1_2 slot because it's blocked by main GPU. PCIEX16_3 slot shares bandwidth with PCI-E 1x slots and ASMedia SATA controller (which I use at the moment). PCIEX16_3 slot is blocked pretty badly by cables and other crap so I can't really fit anything there. I also have esata & usb panel there (the slot is not in use).
> 
> I too have the issue that windows reverts to 5.1 when using headphone port. I don't think that it will do hurt anything if you do not use the SBX stuff though. In stereo mode it doesn't revert to 5.1. By the way, for headphone mode this might be working workaround:
> 
> and then select full range speakers form the next page. I haven't tested but I think those settings won't revert.



tried that, you dont get vocals in movies most of the time :\


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

Quote: 





axaion said:


> tried that, you dont get vocals in movies most of the time :\


 
   
  I've yet to hear any missing sounds in movies, gaming or music listening when using 5.1 speakers, try ticking center and rear channels then. Just to see what happens in case the movie processes the vocals for those channels.


----------



## Axaion

rpgwizard said:


> I've yet to hear any missing sounds in movies, gaming or music listening when using 5.1 speakers, try ticking center and rear channels then. Just to see what happens in case the movie processes the vocals for those channels.



Seems it does, god damn it, lol.
Edit; If i disable everything in SB control panel, it has sounds, but oh god the massive bass, if i enable the bass there, nobass 
Edit2; Its still massive surround when you disable everything though.. so no dice there
Which compoments do you keep when installing the drivers though?, all of em?


----------



## Anarion

You have surround processing stuff always on? Weird... I'd try removing everything. Uninstall all creative related and then delete the leftover folders.


----------



## Axaion

anarion said:


> You have surround processing stuff always on? Weird... I'd try removing everything. Uninstall all creative related and then delete the leftover folders.



Actually i never have that on.. ever


----------



## SoFGR

ok guys, plz give  these settings a shot and post back !  they're supposed give very good positioning, ever better  than this  video 
   
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yu4MPJ08w1k&src_vid=3HHKHJmTytQ&feature=iv&annotation_id=annotation_75563
   
   
  game  "5.1" 
  windows "5.1"
  creative control panel "headphones"
  cinematic -> dts -> dts neo pc -> cinema mode ( http://postimg.org/image/mdb8nud1p/ )


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

Quote: 





sofgr said:


> ok guys, plz give  these settings a shot and post back !  they're supposed give very good positioning, ever better  than this  video
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yu4MPJ08w1k&src_vid=3HHKHJmTytQ&feature=iv&annotation_id=annotation_75563
> 
> ...


 
   
  Hmm... I guess it's worth a try possibly as there seems to be no european customers around to buy my ZxR so might give it a 2nd shot. I hope it works for headphone port too and not just spdif.
   
  Where did you read? Just curious for more info/feedback.

 EDIT: Seems Neo DTSC converts stereo sources up to 5.1 or 7.1.. sounds interesting if Creative's speaker config then manages to make use of it as "headphones" output. The interesting thing is what happens between that upmixing -> Creative cpanel "headphone" speaker processing, the signal is tweaked to virtual upmix but then back into stereo.


----------



## SoFGR

Quote: 





rpgwizard said:


> Hmm... I guess it's worth a try possibly as there seems to be no european customers around to buy my ZxR so might give it a 2nd shot. I hope it works for headphone port too and not just spdif.
> 
> Where did you read? Just curious for more info/feedback.
> 
> EDIT: Seems Neo DTSC converts stereo sources up to 5.1 or 7.1.. sounds interesting if Creative's speaker config then manages to make use of it as "headphones" output. The interesting thing is what happens between that upmixing -> Creative cpanel "headphone" speaker processing, the signal is tweaked to virtual upmix but then back into stereo.


 
  well i got a steam friend with a  sound blaster Z, so i use him as my guinea pig   I tell him to try different settings, watch videos  etc  
   
  I know that dts neo pc  upmixes your sound source instead of  downmixing it, but he told  that his sound positioning was "cheat-like" when he tried this setting  on top of the usual  "5.1-to-headphones"  trick , he tried sbx surround 50% as well but he didn't like it  ALL !


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

Quote: 





sofgr said:


> well i got a steam friend with a  sound blaster Z, so i use him as my guinea pig   I tell him to try different settings, watch videos  etc
> 
> I know that dts neo pc  upmixes your sound source instead of  downmixing it, but he told  that his sound positioning was "cheat-like" when he tried this setting  on top of the usual  "5.1-to-headphones"  trick , he tried sbx surround 50% as well but he didn't like it  ALL !


 
   
  OK, I quite enjoyed SBX surround with windows control panel set to *stereo*, do note with stereo only. It worked much less great with 5.1 set there and the ideal surround setting with 5.1 was the standard value (67% or something like that, don't remember) but even then sounded not quite ideal. So you can tell him to try stereo speakers in cpanel and Surround for me sounded best at exactly *91%*, 90 or 92% was worse already, 91% setting for me was perfect.
   
  I'm sure it doesn't beat the DTS config though but it should be noticeably better than using 5.1. It's great in the sense it barely affects SQ whatsoever, even music sounded quite nice with it. Since I prefer a solution where 5.1 speakers is used because I'm too lazy to start swapping around config when not playing certain games that demand 5.1 to sound properly I will definitely check out the DTS stuff but I hope it also sounds okay with music though. I'm still angry that I cannot select speakers in creative console when using headphone port :<


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

OK I've played around with the DTS setting and I'm glad I decided to give it a retry as this DTS thing works pretty good. I actually prefer the music mode for both gaming AND music listening, it sounds good with music as well (very subtle change and gives you a more "surround" experience but without any typically added SQ hits at all!). The best width setting when using music mode for me is 2nd highest step to the right of the slider (narrow).
   
  However the claustrophobic sound still remains no matter how I set it up from speakers to headphone to everything disabled to all kinds of surround settings enabled etc  it feels so weird playing games like UT3 like I've played like over 3000 hrs and now how it sounds on the ALC889A when using 5.1 speakers which just sounds way more open and the positioning is excellent too.


----------



## xnor

I have some questions about the Z model. Sorry if this has been answered before.
   
  1) How is the driver stability with Windows 7, 64 bit? What about Windows 8?
  2) Is the front panel hp/mic the same as the rear hp/mic (in terms of amplification, output impedance)?
  3) Output impedance of the Z is  about 20 Ohm, ZxR about 40 Ohm, what about the Zx (is this basically a Z with the little desktop controller?)?
   
   
  edit: 3) the Zx card is said to be identical to the Z card.


----------



## kenammo

Bump.
   
  Still enjoying my ZXR immensely. Rock-solid performance and perfectly stable in my Win 8 64 system.


----------



## Evshrug

Does anybody know, if I put this in my Mac Pro, will the computer still boot and run this card with generic drivers?


----------



## watsaname

Quote: 





xnor said:


> I have some questions about the Z model. Sorry if this has been answered before.
> 
> 1) How is the driver stability with Windows 7, 64 bit? What about Windows 8?
> 2) Is the front panel hp/mic the same as the rear hp/mic (in terms of amplification, output impedance)?
> ...


 
  1) Driver stablility is pretty great. I am running it on my Windows 7 machine without much of a hitch. The only thing is that sometimes the sound blaster control panel refuses to open for a while like 10 minutes. It is weird and if I don't have that kind of patience I will restart and it will open completely fine. I have a feeling that it is due to some application taking control of it and not wanting to let go of it or something like that.
   
  2)As far as I am aware, the front panel is not the same in terms of amplification. The back headphone port has an actual headphone amp that is hardwired into it.


----------



## watsaname

Quote: 





sofgr said:


> ok guys, plz give  these settings a shot and post back !  they're supposed give very good positioning, ever better  than this  video
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yu4MPJ08w1k&src_vid=3HHKHJmTytQ&feature=iv&annotation_id=annotation_75563
> 
> ...


 
   
   
  Quote: 





rpgwizard said:


> OK I've played around with the DTS setting and I'm glad I decided to give it a retry as this DTS thing works pretty good. I actually prefer the music mode for both gaming AND music listening, it sounds good with music as well (very subtle change and gives you a more "surround" experience but without any typically added SQ hits at all!). The best width setting when using music mode for me is 2nd highest step to the right of the slider (narrow).
> 
> However the claustrophobic sound still remains no matter how I set it up from speakers to headphone to everything disabled to all kinds of surround settings enabled etc  it feels so weird playing games like UT3 like I've played like over 3000 hrs and now how it sounds on the ALC889A when using 5.1 speakers which just sounds way more open and the positioning is excellent too.


 
  I might be missing something, but after reading the note for the "cinematic" tab isn't the two DSPs only supposed to work for SPDIF Out? I might be missing something here or my reading comprehension is bad. I did get sound to come out of my headphones after enabling one of the DSPs, but I don't know if it working as intended.


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

Quote: 





watsaname said:


> I might be missing something, but after reading the note for the "cinematic" tab isn't the two DSPs only supposed to work for SPDIF Out? I might be missing something here or my reading comprehension is bad. I did get sound to come out of my headphones after enabling one of the DSPs, but I don't know if it working as intended.


 
   
  I was worried about that too but I always use my ears to verify and disregard what it says. My ears says it works, maybe not in the intended way? But it does SOMETHING with the signal and that something works pretty good.


----------



## watsaname

Quote: 





rpgwizard said:


> I was worried about that too but I always use my ears to verify and disregard what it says. My ears says it works, maybe not in the intended way? But it does SOMETHING with the signal and that something works pretty good.


 
  Yeah, I feel that same way, there is a difference, but if it is the "intended" effect? I don't know.
   
  Using it for BF3/CSS, I feel like the positional audio is much better than using something like SBX which I am not too fond of because of the echoey effect it adds.


----------



## Radical_53

Where the heck did you guys find a "cinematic" tab?


----------



## watsaname

Quote: 





radical_53 said:


> Where the heck did you guys find a "cinematic" tab?


 
  It is the 5th tab down from the first one. Right underneath Speakers/Headphones and right above mixer.


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

Needs the addon card installed too for that cinema tab to appear . Seems like it streams between the devices to be able to use DTS like that via headphone-out, something like how VAC would work. I wouldn't be suprised if this was hacked in some way to be able to exploit it for even more uses, like no need for VAC, just use the DB Pro card as substitute.


----------



## Radical_53

Thanks a lot! I don't have the add-on card installed so that would be the reason I'm not seeing it. I didn't think I could use it for anything so I simply left it in the box, just like the ACM.
  Interesting to hear, no I'll have a reason to take them out and give them a try


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

Quote: 





radical_53 said:


> Thanks a lot! I don't have the add-on card installed so that would be the reason I'm not seeing it. I didn't think I could use it for anything so I simply left it in the box, just like the ACM.
> Interesting to hear, no I'll have a reason to take them out and give them a try


 
   
  Yea I didn't have the 2nd one installed either so was wondering the same thing as you so had to google it. I think this is probably why the DTS works "universally" on anything you playback as it probably streams the signal between these 2 cards so that automaticly every signal gets the DTS processing applied no matter what sound is played, at least this is theoretically the only possibility how I could assume it would work and why it needs that 2nd card installed for the cinematic tab to appear too. It's very similiar to runing VAC (virtual audio cable) and then running a VST host with some VST plugins so that the VST plugin is applied to every audio that is being playbacked.
   
  I'm still gonna sell my ZxR card if I can even find any buyers (people say you can always sell on the forums if you're not satisfied with your purchase, a bit more difficult if you're from Finland though where shipping to US isn't a viable option due to expensive shipping costs)


----------



## Axaion

Dosent have anything to do with the add-on card, you just need to have the Extras installed (DTS and Dolby), else they dont show up ofcourse  I have the tab aswell with my regular Z, which obviously does not have a the DBPro card


----------



## Anarion

rpgwizard said:


> Yea I didn't have the 2nd one installed either so was wondering the same thing as you so had to google it. I think this is probably why the DTS works "universally" on anything you playback as it probably streams the signal between these 2 cards so that automaticly every signal gets the DTS processing applied no matter what sound is played, at least this is theoretically the only possibility how I could assume it would work and why it needs that 2nd card installed for the cinematic tab to appear too. It's very similiar to runing VAC (virtual audio cable) and then running a VST host with some VST plugins so that the VST plugin is applied to every audio that is being playbacked.
> 
> I'm still gonna sell my ZxR card if I can even find any buyers (people say you can always sell on the forums if you're not satisfied with your purchase, a bit more difficult if you're from Finland though where shipping to US isn't a viable option due to expensive shipping costs)


I'd suggest MuroBBS myydään osio.


----------



## Radical_53

Quote: 





axaion said:


> Dosent have anything to do with the add-on card, you just need to have the Extras installed (DTS and Dolby), else they dont show up ofcourse  I have the tab aswell with my regular Z, which obviously does not have a the DBPro card


 
   
  Well, no. I do have all the additional software still installed and there's no tab. Maybe that's one difference in the drivers between the two cards (why would there be two sets otherwise).


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

Quote: 





radical_53 said:


> Well, no. I do have all the additional software still installed and there's no tab. Maybe that's one difference in the drivers between the two cards (why would there be two sets otherwise).


 
   
  I think it maybe works differently for the different cards. This just a guess but it may be a software emulation with Zx and Z cards and done by the hardware with ZxR... just a pure guess. But yea I DID have DTS installed with my ZxR card and it wasn't shown, only until I connected the DBPro card like I read online it would show up...
   
   


anarion said:


> I'd suggest MuroBBS myydään osio.


   


  Yea I've sold and bought stuff here in the past but I got less interested in the place after I got fooled. Also the ppl there are extra greedy, I won't sell this card for less than 180€ but I bet ppl will be like "150€!,  another: ok 155€, k 160€ and I pick it up! And then Z series cards are like cheaper in finland than rest of the europe, usually goes for like 225€ in germany or UK but in Finland Datava (absolutely horrible customer service, won't buy from those ever again no matter price, was fooled to pay like 18€ extra to get from another stock/importer and well it still took like 2½ months before I had the card and probably got it from the usual stock and never got that money back yet, might have to bitch with them some more as they didn't respond to my last email even) sells for 190€, anyway 180€ or I won't sell... it's only less than 15 hrs used in total.


----------



## Radical_53

Yes, it's like 250€ in Germany and close to 200€ in UK (both Amazon). Curious why Germans have to pay extra again...
   
  I'll give the daughter board a go tomorrow. It seems to be interesting to try at least and if it really sounds even better that'd be totally worth the effort and extra space


----------



## turokrocks

Creative Sound Blaster Z-Series Beta Software 

File Name : SBZxR_CD_LD_1_00_20_BETA.exe


----------



## rocketron1

hi everyone,
   
  I just got this ZxR sound card and use it with a set of MMX 300 cans, im not that impressed with it gaming atm, I feel like the surround is not great..
   
  I have read the whole thread.
   
  I do not use any speakers just use my headset.
   
  what are the ideal settings, I think iv played with all the sbx studio settings and still cant find the right spot.
   
  @ RPGwizzard,
   
  so what would you recommend are the ideal settings for games?
   
  windows cp set to stereo, sbx disabled and dts set in cinematic, eq disabled? would this be your recommendation for gaming, I play games like bf3 and Arma 2/3
   
  thanks


----------



## watsaname

Quote: 





rocketron1 said:


> hi everyone,
> 
> I just got this ZxR sound card and use it with a set of MMX 300 cans, im not that impressed with it gaming atm, I feel like the surround is not great..
> 
> ...


 
  I need to do further testing with my setup, hard to do a/b testing when you have to exit game and change setting and all that.
   
  For me, I think the best set-up so far is 5.1(Windows settings), Dolby Digital Live(set to headphones), and whatever settings need to be changed in the game.
   
  For Battlefield 3, use Home Cinema and turn off Enhanced Stereo mode. I had enhanced stereo mode on and at first didn't care for the surround. When I turned it off, it was like playing a whole new game. Just an FYI.
   
  I am using Audio Technica AD700, so YMMV. As I said I need to do further testing as well as find a way to a/b compare better.


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

I had better results with "Music Mode" with the DTS setting than movie and the slider set 2nd furthermost to the right side (narrow). With it set to wide you loose positional accuracy/surround cues to my ears. This is tested while being windowed mode in UT3 and listened critically while testing different settings back n forth.
   
  But I was also unsure whether just having DTS enabled but leaving DTS Neo disabled if that was better or not. For sure it messes less with the audio if DTS NeoPC is disabled and volume levels seem more "appropriate" and doesn't vary as much and will work fine with music (everything) too.
   
  Windows cpanel I thought 5.1 worked best (I usually have best results if then selecting only the "Full-range speakers" -> "Left and right" and "surround speakers" and the rest like center, rear etc speakers unticked). But if using SBX surround then stereo speakers worked a lot better and the surround value 91% was clearly ideal for me. Can't really say which setting worked best but my top-3 contenders:
   
  - Windows cpanel 5.1 -> DTS NeoPC Music mode with slider set 2nd furthest to the right (narrow), yes exactly that setting, I tested it very carefully
  - Windows cpanel 5.1 -> DTS enabled but NeoPC disabled
  - Windows cpanel stereo speakers -> SBX Surround enabled and set to 91%

 In the end I wasn't still 100% satisfied with the soundstaging no matter how I set it up, I swapped back to Realtek ALC889A and was more satisfied with the soundstaging (only need to use 5.1 speakers and you're set for wonderful positional sound and NATURAL soundstage). I think the Creative software side speaker config must be messing with the signal somehow as it seems to be an additional layer added to the signal processing before it goes to the headphones, it's something I've disliked for a long time with Creative how it sounded very different depending what speaker mode was selected in Creative's driver panel since Audigy days. I wish it was possible to bypass that crap altogether so it simply 100% follows Microsoft standards when it comes to speaker config and doesn't do anything additionally.
   
  It's a shame about the soundstaging as I really like how the mids sounds on it, I'd say that's the best range on the cards, has a lot of meat and presence and a bit of a fullbodied analog warm sound to them. The highs are pretty natural sounding, no artificial boosting, maybe tiny bit "roughness" but only the faintest kind. Bass seems for my personal taste even sliiiiiiightly bloated down very low, it's as if it got extra current feed to bring up the <50Hz one notch and well it works good with less bassy or especially open headphones which rolls off a bit but for my bassy closed headphones it gets sliiiiiightly too much. At least it's the bassiest source I've tried when comparing its stock state without any adjustments on EQ or anything. Overall a pretty "analog" sound signature, quite similar to that of Titanium HD I also tried but I really think the mids sound one step better on this card from my memory.


----------



## watsaname

rpgwizard said:


> I had better results with "Music Mode" with the DTS setting than movie and the slider set 2nd furthermost to the right side (narrow). With it set to wide you loose positional accuracy/surround cues to my ears. This is tested while being windowed mode in UT3 and listened critically while testing different settings back n forth.
> 
> But I was also unsure whether just having DTS enabled but leaving DTS Neo disabled if that was better or not. For sure it messes less with the audio if DTS NeoPC is disabled and volume levels seem more "appropriate" and doesn't vary as much and will work fine with music (everything) too.
> 
> ...




It sucks that the one of the things holding you back from liking the card is the inferior soundstage. I don't want to send you on a wild goose chas, but do you think if you swap out the op amps in the card it will help bring out some of the soundstage that you really miss?

I tried your config your the config with it set to music and it sounds pretty great!


----------



## Radical_53

I may have mentioned it here before but I had a pair of OPA2228s lying around that really helped me with the soundstage. It's just an idea of course, one likes rolling while others hate it.


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

I really don't think the soundstaging is a hardware-side specific problem but driver implementation problem. I used to use "speakers" in the Creative control panel instead of headphone with previous Creative offerings as "headphone" made soundstage more closed-in. With Z-series however it's impossible to select other than "Headphone" if using headphone jack as it automaticly disables the headphone port if selecting speakers and activates the speaker outputs instead.
   
  The speaker outputs then again sounds really bad to my ears, it's not worth paying 200 EUR for a card (the Burr-brown DAC isn't worth that much) if you end up using the speaker outputs for your headphones that aren't amped, you may just go for the cheaper "Z" card then if you're ending up using that just to be able to take advantage of its software capabilities and use your own amp with it. As a comparision the speaker RCA outputs provide even less volume than a Realtek ALC889A.  I think I had to use like 18% windows volume versus 14% on Realtek ALC889A for comparable volume levels so speaker outputs on the card has absolutely no extra amping to it than what the DAC provides.
   
  So unless there's a hack to bring back speaker config usability with headphone jack I don't think Z-series will be finding my home again.


----------



## SDub

So I picked up a Creative Sound Blaster Z this weekend. As someone who's never owned a sound card, the installation was kind of a mess (not to mention the 1.5 day stall during the process because of an electrical outage). I'm talking repeat BSODs, boot looping; the whole nine yards. In the end I did get it to work, however, I have a few comments:
   
  1. For someone who appreciates good sounding music (I wouldn't consider myself an audiophile as this is my first soundcard and I am using a "headset"), some of the preset EQs (without adjusting any other settings) definitely CHANGE the sound as opposed to my onboard audio but I'm not entirely sure if it's better or worse. I'm seeing a lot of interesting set ups here for good gaming set ups, but I was wondering if anyone had any insight to a good mix for say, metal, or pop, or blue grass, or jazz, or anything other than country (haha). Now I'm not talking strictly EQ. I am talking changing any of the settings in the Creative software. 
   
  2. For an avid gamer, I jumped straight into Crysis 3 multiplayer to test out the audio queues in 3D space and I was certainly not impressed. Couple things to note, however: 
  - I was trying very hard to be guided by strictly audio and not spawn locations, map locations, ally locations or anything else. I was putting all the work on the sound and I was sucking wretchedly. I did the same test with my onboard and sucked just as much. 
  - Crysis 3 uses FMOD Ex middleware.
  - I own Sennheiser PC360s 
  - I was using the "Scout" preset. 
   
  I feel like if someone advertises their product as great for gaming should at least have a good standard preset that we can use without too much finagling. Also, after changing all the settings in the creative software, the control panel, etc. is this still going to sound good for music? Changing back and forth between non-preset settings sounds incredibly tedious.


----------



## Radical_53

Two ideas to try out:

- do not use the Scout mode...
- play around with the SBX surround slider and keep Windows set to surround speakers (5.1 full range) to get a nice effect

On a side note: I never really liked the sound of the PC360. A friend of mine came over with a pair once and I was happy to take them off again.


----------



## SDub

Quote: 





radical_53 said:


> Two ideas to try out:
> 
> - do not use the Scout mode...
> - play around with the SBX surround slider and keep Windows set to surround speakers (5.1 full range) to get a nice effect
> ...


 
  Yeah, no kidding! Sorry for the ignorance, but it's my first card so the set up process was something unknown to me. I will give it a try and report back when I am home from work.


----------



## dare2die

I just joined today to rant about this... The ACM of my Creative Zx really sounds like it is deteriorating the signal, clarity is noticeably lost.
   
  I read that a few others on this thread noticed it as well. I'm feeling extremely irritated as I purposely bought the Zx (before reading those comments) to use the ACM as a volume control for my KRK Rokit studio monitors (no convenient stereo volume control) when plugged into PC. Any ideas what I should do now? Is there anyway I can complain directly to Creative about this?
   
  We Asians have smaller incomes compared to Westerners, can't blow off cash testing all the soundcards/amps to see which isn't perfect... *sob*
   
  P.s Sorry for interrupting the conversation above me...


----------



## SDub

Quote: 





sdub said:


> Yeah, no kidding! Sorry for the ignorance, but it's my first card so the set up process was something unknown to me. I will give it a try and report back when I am home from work.


 
  Reporting back...
   
  ..With the new settings I had to drop the bass a bit because footsteps would trigger a really bassy tone which wasn't necessary and frankly would make my brain explode if I listened to it for several hours due to epic vibrations. However, it was MUCH better than anything I had played with before. I still have the dilemna of not knowing what good music sounds like. I know it's subjective, and I know that the audio from my Realtek onboard and from the Creative Sound Blaster Z is different when it comes to music but I don't know which is better.


----------



## Evshrug

Just an FYI drop for USA people,
Newegg has the Zx and ZxR on sale. The ZxR is 30% off.


----------



## dare2die

Quote: 





corygillmore said:


> Gonna touch again on ACM audio degradation. It seems the 1/8 inch jack on my ACM is faulty. I mean I plugged my MD Trumpets into it and was mortified. Now using my DT880 and the 1/4 inch jack on the ACM is fine. But I'm actually extremely pleased with using the included RCA to 1/8 inch adapter from the soundcard to my RSA SR-71a. Sounds great. Better than using my iPod Video 5.5G, $200 ALO LOD and the SR-71a. I posted this earlier but it took me a while to figure out that in order to use the RCA to 1/8 inch adapter and amp I had to set the card to speaker mode in the Creative control panel and set it to stereo.


 
   
  Excuse me, but I'd like to ask you if the ACM audio degradation problem completely goes away if using the 1/4 inch output? I'd like to know before I go hunting for a gold-plated 1/8" to 1/4" adapter (not easy to find here). Thanks beforehand for your reply.


----------



## watsaname

Quote: 





sdub said:


> Reporting back...
> 
> ..With the new settings I had to drop the bass a bit because footsteps would trigger a really bassy tone which wasn't necessary and frankly would make my brain explode if I listened to it for several hours due to epic vibrations. However, it was MUCH better than anything I had played with before. I still have the dilemna of not knowing what good music sounds like. I know it's subjective, and I know that the audio from my Realtek onboard and from the Creative Sound Blaster Z is different when it comes to music but I don't know which is better.


 
  Yeah, same here! When I first installed the card and listening to music I wasn't sure if I liked the new sound or not. After a while, I just decided to turn the SBX Pro Studio off all together because I didn't like all the stuff it added to music. I have been to lazy to actually check which I like the most in terms of different settings, but I think you should turn off the SBX Pro Studio off all together and see if the music sounds good to you.  
   
  RPGWizard says that he likes setting windows to Stereo and have everything else off. He also mentioned that he liked using DTS Connect>DTS NeoC>Music Mode. Just some different things to check out.


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

Quote: 





watsaname said:


> RPGWizard says that he likes setting windows to Stereo and have everything else off. He also mentioned that he liked using DTS Connect>DTS NeoC>Music Mode. Just some different things to check out.


 
   
  I only think it worked great with stereo speakers in windows if using SBX Surround, if using DTS connect then 5.1 should be used.


----------



## ozz007

Sounds like, I'm going to keep my Titanium HD for quite a while.


----------



## kenammo

Quote: 





watsaname said:


> Yeah, same here! When I first installed the card and listening to music I wasn't sure if I liked the new sound or not. After a while, I just decided to turn the SBX Pro Studio off all together because I didn't like all the stuff it added to music. I have been to lazy to actually check which I like the most in terms of different settings, but I think you should turn off the SBX Pro Studio off all together and see if the music sounds good to you.
> 
> RPGWizard says that he likes setting windows to Stereo and have everything else off. He also mentioned that he liked using DTS Connect>DTS NeoC>Music Mode. Just some different things to check out.


 

 Same experience here with my ZXR. Everything sounded too artificial with the default settings. I immediately turned off the SBX Pro Studio completely. Instead, I use my J River 18 to tweak my bass, treble, mid, etc. Much better sound for me.


----------



## rocketron1

Quote: 





rpgwizard said:


> I had better results with "Music Mode" with the DTS setting than movie and the slider set 2nd furthermost to the right side (narrow). With it set to wide you loose positional accuracy/surround cues to my ears. This is tested while being windowed mode in UT3 and listened critically while testing different settings back n forth.
> 
> But I was also unsure whether just having DTS enabled but leaving DTS Neo disabled if that was better or not. For sure it messes less with the audio if DTS NeoPC is disabled and volume levels seem more "appropriate" and doesn't vary as much and will work fine with music (everything) too.
> 
> ...


 
  Hello m8,
   
  sorry for delay in getting back,
   
  I have tried your settings of just sbx enabled and surround at 91% and windows cp = stereo, much much better! thank you,
   
  I have not had a chance to test the other method of the dolby live, as I do not have the daughter card installed, I was always under the assumption that that was only used if your using speakers etc and not headphones..
   
  Cheers
  Ronan


----------



## rocketron1

also can I plug the headphones into the volume control box with dolby live?


----------



## Radical_53

I like the comfort of the ACM but indeed music seems to sound a little nicer when I'm using line out.
The problem with line out though, at least for me, is that it's limited to the "speakers" option. While it sounds great for music, "pure", it starts to get quite weird once SBX surround is turned on. Positioning was quite weird for me with that setting. It didn't sound all wrong but many things were out-of-balance apparently.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Yes, it would be nice if you could get some modded drivers that allowed the feature set of the headphones to be avaialable on the line outs.


----------



## Axaion

robscix said:


> Yes, it would be nice if you could get some modded drivers that allowed the feature set of the headphones to be avaialable on the line outs.



 
 Or the line-out's to be available on the headphone port  (like stereo that dosent revert to 5.1 all the time )


----------



## genclaymore

Now all you need is a driver modder who is up to the task who think it worth it to even do it.


----------



## NAWilson9

So I read through the last five or six pages of this thread and it seems like people aren't having anything but problems with these cards. Is that the general consensus?


----------



## SDub

Quote: 





nawilson9 said:


> So I read through the last five or six pages of this thread and it seems like people aren't having anything but problems with these cards. Is that the general consensus?


 
  My experience wasn't that at all. I had to get the settings right, but after that it was a glorious experience (I came from onboard audio).


----------



## kenammo

Quote: 





nawilson9 said:


> So I read through the last five or six pages of this thread and it seems like people aren't having anything but problems with these cards. Is that the general consensus?


 

 My overall experience has been great! I just had to change some settings from out of the box to get it to my liking. Now it's all bliss!


----------



## Radical_53

It's quite typical for Creative to have some "weird" default settings, especially as they like to showcase what the card may have to offer. It's nothing unusual to have to set this up when you first get your gear.


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

Quote: 





radical_53 said:


> It's quite typical for Creative to have some "weird" default settings, especially as they like to showcase what the card may have to offer. It's nothing unusual to have to set this up when you first get your gear.


 
   
  Yea I was wondering if the card was broken or something as the onboard sounded better when ZxR was at stock settings, Crystallizer and SBX Surround was enabled by default :/


----------



## ROBSCIX

Spent the day building some new opamps modules for use on the ZXR.  I will snap some pics when I have a chance...For those that are into modding their cards.
  I am also considering pulling the SOIC on the Cent/Sub and adding in a socket -somehow


----------



## SDub

Quote: 





robscix said:


> Spent the day building some new opamps modules for use on the ZXR.  I will snap some pics when I have a chance...For those that are into modding their cards.
> I am also considering pulling the SOIC on the Cent/Sub and adding in a socket -somehow


 
  Being a CE major that just finished up Analog Circuits, what type of op amp design did you use for a sound card?


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





nawilson9 said:


> So I read through the last five or six pages of this thread and it seems like people aren't having anything but problems with these cards. Is that the general consensus?


 
  I think the cards runs great and have seen no issues.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





sdub said:


> Being a CE major that just finished up Analog Circuits, what type of op amp design did you use for a sound card?


 
  When I mean modules, I just mean opamps put onto adapters PCB's for use in this soundcard.
  Although I am considering designing an add on PCB, so I can use opamps for the other channels that are SOIC's.


----------



## SoFGR

Quote: 





sofgr said:


> do you mind sharing your exact sbx pro studio settings plz ?


 
   
  Quote: 





fegefeuer said:


> "SBX Surround off" with TF2 as in the YT video is ok/normal during "legacy surround 1" due to OpenAL/DS3D (automatically), I am not sure if the uploader did everything right during setup. In any other game you would get stereo if you'd disable SBX. Like BF3 for instance. Just testing loudspeaker signals in the windows audio panel (5.1) is enough to notice that of course.
> 
> SBX is bassier than CMSS-3D where the bass is noticably toned down, not surprising. With the Z(xR) panel you can correct this perfectly for your taste. I wouldn't touch it for Singleplayer, I understand it for competitive gameplay.
> 
> ...


 
   
   
  Quote: 





sofgr said:


> do you mind sharing your exact sbx pro studio settings plz ?


 
   
   
  BUMP !!!!


----------



## DJINFERNO806

So I finally upgraded and bought a pair of DT770's pro 250 ohm to match with my sbz. I was worried they would be underpowered but to my delight that was far from true. The clarity and response is amazing. There is no overpowering of any frequency to another, although that is why I bought the 250 ohm version. 

I still plan on buying the zxr once I sell my z. Just wondering if anyone here has these headphones paired with the zxr. What are your opinions?


----------



## turokrocks

I will swap all the opamps on my ZXR to Muses01.
http://semicon.njr.co.jp/eng/MUSES/MUSES01.html
   
  They should work , right?


----------



## Anarion

New drivers.

ZxR:
http://support.creative.com/downloads/download.aspx?nDownloadId=12829

Zx/Z:
http://support.creative.com/downloads/download.aspx?nDownloadId=12828

It looks like ASIO is more stable, no more timeouts (so far).


----------



## genclaymore

Quote: 





turokrocks said:


> I will swap all the opamps on my ZXR to Muses01.
> http://semicon.njr.co.jp/eng/MUSES/MUSES01.html
> 
> They should work , right?


 
  I could be wrong but i think it depends on how much voltage the card's voltage caps or regulator's can supply to the op-amps if they work well or not.  Prolly best to wait for some one who tried the muse on a sound card or some other sound device that doesn't have the voltage caps and components like the Asus E1. So you can make sure so you don't get stuck with something you cant use. I sure they would prolly either get hot or don't work that well if it cant.


----------



## jincuteguy

So why are all ppl all on the SoundBlaster ZxR card? I thought the HT Omega Claro Halo is the best sounding card on the market? regardless of the old PCI connector.
I'm looking for a new sound card in the $200+ range. So any suggestion is appreciated. I have the Beyerdyanmic DT 990 Pro headphones, so I'm not using speakers.


----------



## Evshrug

They're on this card because it has (FWIR) record-breaking SNR for a sound card and the first strong new effort in several years, plus the headphone surround has (opinion) improved positional effects.


----------



## jincuteguy

What is FWIR? Is SNR really that important? I mean higher is better, but most of the time it doenst do anything. Doens't the HT Omega Claro Halo has surround Dolby headphone too? I Know the ZxR has improved the surround, but how does it compare to the Halo? Because I don't see how the ZxR is better than the Halo.


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

Quote: 





jincuteguy said:


> What is FWIR? Is SNR really that important? I mean higher is better, but most of the time it doenst do anything. Doens't the HT Omega Claro Halo has surround Dolby headphone too? I Know the ZxR has improved the surround, but how does it compare to the Halo? Because I don't see how the ZxR is better than the Halo.


 
   
  Thanks for pointing it out, this is maybe the last option I might still have to give a try, neither ASUS or Creative cards seem to work out too well for me, otherwise I will just be using Realtek ALC1150 (115dB SNR, quite high for onboard) on the new Intel Z87 chipset mobo that arrives today. In fact if some1 had a Halo lying around I'd swap it for the ZxR.
   
  EDIT: Is the Halo stereo only? I'd want a card that at least internally is able to process 5.1 signals (doesn't need the analog outputs). Some of the games I regularly play require speaker config set to 5.1 speakers for the positional sound to work nice.


----------



## turokrocks

Quote: 





genclaymore said:


> I could be wrong but i think it depends on how much voltage the card's voltage caps or regulator's can supply to the op-amps if they work well or not.  Prolly best to wait for some one who tried the muse on a sound card or some other sound device that doesn't have the voltage caps and components like the Asus E1. So you can make sure so you don't get stuck with something you cant use. I sure they would prolly either get hot or don't work that well if it cant.


 
  Thank you for replying.


----------



## DaWiLd

Hi,
   
  I just bought a Creative ZxR + a PC360 (planning on Q701 soon) and I can't find the correct settings on gaming... I'm playing mainly FPS, and i need to boost the footsteps, reloading from ennemies (pinpoint accuracy).... but not sacrifying others sounds... and have a nice surround effects and soundstage.  I'm new in audiophile area, and i dont know the differents terms etc.... I need some help please! Thanks !


----------



## Marsson

Yesterday I bought this fine sounding card, but when I plug in my Little Dot MK III in the RCA outs on the card and then plug my HD 650 into the amp it won't let me use the headphone settings nor will it enable the fake surround. When watching movies and playing games it's pure stereo.

Have anyone else noticed this? I'm doing a straight A > B with the card and the headphones right now to be able to use the surround function. I'm really at my wits end here.


----------



## genclaymore

That because when your using the speakers setting it is outputting thru the RCA and line outs, when you switch to headphone it cuts off the RCAs and line outs and only output sound thru the headphone out. THats how it was design. You have to use the speaker settings to use the RCA outs on the card.


----------



## Marsson

genclaymore said:


> That because when your using the speakers setting it is outputting thru the RCA and line outs, when you switch to headphone it cuts off the RCAs and line outs and only output sound thru the headphone out. THats how it was design. You have to use the speaker settings to use the RCA outs on the card.




I gathered as much after fiddling around with the settings, but it's still weird that the virtual surround is practically non-existant when using the RCA out...


----------



## genclaymore

You could use that  Razer surround software, sure its not CMSS3D headphone but atleast it will do it.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

dawild said:


> Hi,
> 
> I just bought a Creative ZxR + a PC360 (planning on Q701 soon) and I can't find the correct settings on gaming... I'm playing mainly FPS, and i need to boost the footsteps, reloading from ennemies (pinpoint accuracy).... but not sacrifying others sounds... and have a nice surround effects and soundstage.  I'm new in audiophile area, and i dont know the differents terms etc.... I need some help please! Thanks !




Well your PC360 already has a great sound stage so you shouldnt have issues with accuracy. Just leave SBX surround at its default slider setting and make sure your windows speaker setting is 5.1 without full range speakers. You could try scout mode which is supposed to help with making footsteps clearer but I heard its more of a gimmick. Also make sure your in game settings have 5.1 enabled. Only other setting that should be enabled should be crystalizer which will help with footsteps although I am not a personal fan. 

Leave your EQ flat or if your headphone produce more low end, then bring that down to hopefully bring some more clarity to the finer details.




marsson said:


> I gathered as much after fiddling around with the settings, but it's still weird that the virtual surround is practically non-existant when using the RCA out...




It's not weird at all. RCA out uses a different surround virtualization/space calculations that are meant for speakers in front of you. Not headphones on your ears. If you want HRTF the way its meant to be then you have to plug your headphones into the Headphone out port.


----------



## watsaname

Quote: 





marsson said:


> I gathered as much after fiddling around with the settings, but it's still weird that the virtual surround is practically non-existant when using the RCA out...


 
  Yeah, this card only supports most of its "effects" through its headphone out rather than the other ports on the card. You can always have a DAC that uses SPDIF and have the headphone mix carried to digital out, but that kind of makes the point of buying the card almost pointless.


----------



## Radical_53

Speakers make use of the SBX mode too but, at least sometimes, Windows will default back to stereo speakers if you switch your card from headphones to speakers. 
Always make sure Windows is set to 5.1.
The SBX mode does work nicely with speakers and it works wonderfully with headphones. It does sound weird though if you're connecting headphones to the RCA port.

Raising footsteps should be one of the things Scout mode does but I must admit that I haven't used it yet. With closed cans everything can be heard and its volumes, relative to each other, are ok too. Some games, like Black Ops 2 or Battlefield 3, simply have very quiet footsteps or no footsteps at all so you shouldn't try raising something that isn't really there


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

Nevermind, still trying to find a satisfying config, testing with my new motherboard just in case I had some issues on the previous board, nope still not the soundstage I was used to with Realtek onboard...


----------



## jincuteguy

So what's the best settings for in game surround? Is it Headphone in Window control panel (not ZxR control panel) and 5.1 in game? Or what?


----------



## Radical_53

From my point of view: Windows 5.1, game 5.1, ZXR set to headphones and SBX set to 100%.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

jincuteguy said:


> So what's the best settings for in game surround? Is it Headphone in Window control panel (not ZxR control panel) and 5.1 in game? Or what?




Windows has to be set to 5.1 for the in game engine to properly send out a 5.1 signal. Then when SBX surround is used, it mixes the 5.1 channels into the hrtf signal to your headphones.

I don't recommend setting surround past the 67% mark as it tends to add too much of a weird effect to the sound. I can't explain it, sound almost gets hollow maybe? Try the difference for yourself and see.


----------



## Radical_53

Guess that also depends on the cans you're using. Open cans might sound better with a lower value.


----------



## DaWiLd

Quote: 





djinferno806 said:


> Well your PC360 already has a great sound stage so you shouldnt have issues with accuracy. Just leave SBX surround at its default slider setting and make sure your windows speaker setting is 5.1 without full range speakers. You could try scout mode which is supposed to help with making footsteps clearer but I heard its more of a gimmick. Also make sure your in game settings have 5.1 enabled. Only other setting that should be enabled should be crystalizer which will help with footsteps although I am not a personal fan.
> 
> Leave your EQ flat or if your headphone produce more low end, then bring that down to hopefully bring some more clarity to the finer details.
> It's not weird at all. RCA out uses a different surround virtualization/space calculations that are meant for speakers in front of you. Not headphones on your ears. If you want HRTF the way its meant to be then you have to plug your headphones into the Headphone out port.


 
  OK thanks for your fast reply DJInferno. I have a question, sorry for my ignorance on this : What you mean "Without full range speaker" My Windows sound is set to 5.1, but i cant find this option.. thanks for your help!


----------



## jincuteguy

Did anyone try using the built in microphone on the Module Control Unit? I wonder how's the voice quality, cause if it's good, then there's no point getting a separate mic like the Zal man clip on mic.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

When you go through the speaker setting wizard(right click on sound blaster z and hit "configure speakers") in the sound settings for windows, the last step is to decide whether your speakers are full range or not. This is shown by small speaker vs bigger ones on the little picture.

It generally affects the crossover for lfe or the 0.1 in the 5.1 setup. (The subwoofer speaker). I remember reading that a creative rep had said this is the better setting for headphones with sbx.


I think the mic built in is awesome. It seems to be pretty accurate in its pickup pattern or "cone". I don't have any background noise being picked up. To be honest its the only good part about the ACM.


----------



## DaWiLd

Quote: 





djinferno806 said:


> When you go through the speaker setting wizard(right click on sound blaster z and hit "configure speakers") in the sound settings for windows, the last step is to decide whether your speakers are full range or not. This is shown by small speaker vs bigger ones on the little picture.
> 
> It generally affects the crossover for lfe or the 0.1 in the 5.1 setup. (The subwoofer speaker). I remember reading that a creative rep had said this is the better setting for headphones with sbx.
> 
> ...


 
  Ok so if i got it right, i uncheck everything there, left/right speaker and surround speaker uncheked? that's it ?


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Yes sir!! That should be it for 5.1 settings!


----------



## jincuteguy

dawild said:


> Ok so if i got it right, i uncheck everything there, left/right speaker and surround speaker uncheked? that's it ?




If you unchecked everything, you are only left with 2 speakers which is not surround . I think u're doing it wrong?


----------



## DJINFERNO806

I'm pretty sure he meant unchecking everything in the full range speakers portion of the setup. Not the number of speakers step.


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

I don't know what's the case with the Z-series and I've already given up on it after testing all possible settings and to me it didn't seem to matter on the ZxR but with Realtek onboard when checking Fullrange speaker options the "Left and right" and "Surround speakers" and leaving the speaker options on that previous page all disabled worked best for games at least. But yea it didn't work equally well with the ZxR card though why I didn't end up using it, somehow it doesn't process the 5.1 signals equally good as Realtek drivers do with it. I wish I could invite some1 for testing this specific thing with both cards next to each other. I'm sure people will be noticing the same thing as me, the ZxR doesn't sound as open and clear positional wise with that 5.1 speaker thing as Realtek onboard do. Now I can't comment what's the case with ASUS cards, I did test an ASUS Xonar D2 briefly but it didn't fit my needs (picked wrong model) so didn't end up testing it a whole lot for surround sound etc. I'd be _VERY_ curious if this nicely working 5.1 surround speaker sound is something that only applies to Realtek's way of handling it or if it's just Z-series which doesn't work equally good in this regard or what. Also music sounds nice soundstage-wise with that config, it's really a difference versus using stereo speakers, with ZxR it doesn't do anything. (well one could argue it SHOULDN'T sound different either and I agree as music is processed as stereo but tell that to the Realtek audio developers which somehow have managed to get a nice "virtual 5.1" sound going on with a stereo/headphone setup if using 5.1 speaker config.  A bit like using DTS NeoPC but with zero drop in sound quality, in fact it just boosts it (better soundstaging).

I really do not want to be using onboard audio forever but I'm getting tired of testing all possible soundcards and end up returning them for one reason or another. Point is using ZxR I get constantly reminded that I'm using a closed headphone due to how closed in the soundstage sounds like but if using Realtek with that 5.1 setting it sounds pretty nice n open.


----------



## jincuteguy

It is because of the SBX Surround, it affects the sound man. If you turned of th eSBX surround, u will hear them more clearly and crisp.


----------



## apav

Hey guys,
   
  Love my ZX paired with my DT 990's 250 ohms but at higher volumes the sound does get a little distorted, and that scratchy "blown speaker sound." My guess is that the ZX isn't powerful enough to drive 250 ohms, so I'm upgrading to the ZXR (rather than buying an external amp, I'll get the better card with a better DAC and amp together). However, after reading this disconcerting thread I am starting to have second thoughts. 
   
http://forums.creative.com/showthread.php?t=699412
   
  It's advertised to put out 80mW of power for headphones, but apparently doesn't even put out 50mW. And since even my 250 ohm headphones are rated at 100mW, I don't know how much an improvement the ZXR will make. 
   
  I know the ZXR will drive my headphones better than the ZX currently does (it definitely has a better amp). The question is by how much? 
   
   
  Also, this is kind of unrelated, but I do have an external amp. It's a CAD HA4, I got it for free when I bought the headphones.
http://www.cadaudio.com/H4A.php
   
  But since it's kind of a low end amp (also rated at 50mW), I'm not sure how much it will help with the sound card. I tried it with my ZX, and it definitely makes it louder, but it also creates a lot static/hiss in the background even when the volume is no that high.
   
  Thanks for the help!


----------



## xnor

Short answer: by +8 dB. (+10 dB is perceived as about twice as loud)
   
  If you hear distortion it is likely the headphone, since 250 ohms really is not a hard load.
   
  The difference between Z/Zx and ZxR is that it will get you 8 dB higher *max *volume.


----------



## apav

Quote: 





xnor said:


> Short answer: by +8 dB. (+10 dB is perceived as about twice as loud)
> 
> If you hear distortion it is likely the headphone, since 250 ohms really is not a hard load.
> 
> The difference between Z/Zx and ZxR is that it will get you 8 dB higher *max *volume.


 
  Thanks, so likely only half of that is distortion free. (Since sound starts to get distorted when I turn the ACM volume up to 50%)
   
  So you think the DT 990s should be no problem for a ZXR?


----------



## xnor

Have you connected the ACM to the back of the card?
   
  Anyway, you might want to connect your headphones directly to the back of your card for best sound quality.


----------



## apav

Quote: 





xnor said:


> Have you connected the ACM to the back of the card?
> 
> Anyway, you might want to connect your headphones directly to the back of your card for best sound quality.


 
   Yes, it's plugged into the back. I've tried plugging my headphones into the ACM and then into back of the card, and I hear no difference. Maybe a minuscule amount with the bass, if anything. HD audio disabled in BIOS as well. Updated to latest ZX drivers.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

The difference is not the volume only. My DT 770 250 ohm on my z sounded totally different and anemic compared to when I bought my zxr. The zxr can definitely power 250 ohm cans sufficiently. 

And the zxr does 50 mW into 600 ohm not 250 ohm. At 250 ohm it will deliver enough power for your DT 990. I wouldn't worry. The headphone amp in the z/zx can't put out the same power however I never had the distortion problem, that typically is a driver issue. The maxim headphone amp in the z only puts out 125 mW at 32 ohms so at 250 ohm it would definitely be below what's needed.

Best bet is to try your headphones on a different amp and see .


----------



## xnor

Quote: 





djinferno806 said:


> The difference is not the volume only. My DT 770 250 ohm on my z sounded totally different and anemic compared to when I bought my zxr. The zxr can definitely power 250 ohm cans sufficiently.


 
  That's most likely because the output impedance of the ZxR is about 2.3 times higher than that of the Z/Zx resulting in a lower damping factor.
   
  Quote: 





> And the zxr does 50 mW into 600 ohm not 250 ohm. At 250 ohm it will deliver enough power for your DT 990. I wouldn't worry. The headphone amp in the z/zx can't put out the same power however I never had the distortion problem, that typically is a driver issue. The maxim headphone amp in the z only puts out 125 mW at 32 ohms so at 250 ohm it would definitely be below what's needed.
> 
> Best bet is to try your headphones on a different amp and see .


 
  Most headphones reach ear-splitting levels with just 1 mW, the DT series is no exception.
   
  Even if the ZxR manages to theoretically output 5 times the power into 250 ohms at max volume,
  a) that's just +7 dB more volume
  b) doesn't mean it will produce less clean sound at lower volumes (which measurements with load confirm, but ignoring the damping factor)
   
   
  Besides connecting directly to the back of the card I'd also suggest to disable all processing in the control panel, your music player etc. temporarily to see if that causes the distortion problem.


----------



## Magictm

Quote: 





apav said:


> Thanks, so likely only half of that is distortion free. (Since sound starts to get distorted when I turn the ACM volume up to 50%)
> 
> So you think the DT 990s should be no problem for a ZXR?


 
  Dear Apav, 
   
  I have the DR 990 PROs and the ZxR. First of, at least from what i can hear the ZxR has no problem driving the DT990s even in normal gain setting (32-300 ohm) and there are also reviews which tested the DT 990s 600 ohm and they stated the ZxR had no problem driving them well in high gain (600 ohm) setting. In your other post you quoted that the DT990 Pros are rated 100mW, just as posted in the Creative thread's pdf. I maybe wrong here, but I do believe there is a misunderstanding here. If you look into the DT990s  PDF in the Creative thread, all DT990s (32-600 ohm) have a max capacity of 100mV, which to me means its their max before they get damaged not how much the need to drive.
   
  Further the author in the Creative thread stats that the ZxR can only output 50mV while the Xonar can do the full 80mV. I looked into the reviews he referred to at the russian siteand the max output for the ZxR was nearly identical to the Xonar ST, with the ST actual weaker by a hair. At 600ohm The ZxR has 5.4v (rms) the Xonar ST 4.8v (rms) (Sorry cannot post pictures yet it seems). Given that the amps are very similar it makes a lot more sense. I have seen multiple statements here that the Xonar can drive the DT990 even with 600ohm. 
http://personalaudio.ru/detail/creative_soundblaster_zxr/
http://personalaudio.ru/detail/asus_xonar_essence_st_/
   
   
  To me I think that the facts in that Creative thread are not clear at all. To me I actually drive the 250 ohm in the normal gain settings on the ZxR and they do not sound under-powered compared the Fiio E17.


----------



## stv014

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *Magictm* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> At 600ohm The ZxR has 5.4v (rms) the Xonar ST 4.8v (rms) (Sorry cannot post pictures yet it seems).


 
   
  That does not look right. I do not have the ST, but on the STX - which is mostly the same card, but with a PCIe interface instead of PCI - I measured a maximum output voltage of about 7 Vrms that is consistent with the measurements available at Stereophile,  and also with what one would expect for a TPA6120 based amplifier with a +/- 12 V power supply. Also, at the maximum output level (0 dBFS sine at high gain and 100% volume), the card still does not clip, but it is close to clipping (0.003% THD at full volume, but it drops significantly if the volume is reduced by just 0.5 dB). Note that for other amplifiers the maximum output is usually specified at 1% THD, which is already clipping.


----------



## apav

Quote: 





magictm said:


> Dear Apav,
> 
> I have the DR 990 PROs and the ZxR. First of, at least from what i can hear the ZxR has no problem driving the DT990s even in normal gain setting (32-300 ohm) and there are also reviews which tested the DT 990s 600 ohm and they stated the ZxR had no problem driving them well in high gain (600 ohm) setting. In your other post you quoted that the DT990 Pros are rated 100mW, just as posted in the Creative thread's pdf. I maybe wrong here, but I do believe there is a misunderstanding here. If you look into the DT990s  PDF in the Creative thread, all DT990s (32-600 ohm) have a max capacity of 100mV, which to me means its their max before they get damaged not how much the need to drive.
> 
> ...


 
  Thank you so much, that definitely cleared my suspicions. I felt like something wasn't right in that thread. I'm happy to have found another person with the same headphones and soundcard (I will be getting) as me. If you say that it can drive them sufficiently, that's all I need. But I have to ask, do you feel that it's worth the upgrade from the ZX?


----------



## stv014

Quote: 





magictm said:


> the Xonar ST 4.8v (rms)


 
   
  Having a look at the articles, it looks like they tested the ST with a -3 dBFS signal, so it is not the actual maximum output. Once it is adjusted by +3 dB, the unloaded output voltage increases to the correct value of about 7 Vrms.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Well the stx has a seperate molex connector that feeds the headamp. The zxr does not. Would that not make a difference in power delivery amount or is that just there to encourage cleaner seperate/cleaner 12v source.


----------



## Radical_53

The card is allowed to take 25W from the slot, much more than any normal amp would use. The PCIe slot is more than sufficient to power both the card and the amp it holds.


----------



## turokrocks

Creative Labs SoundBlaster ZXR Review   
*          Guru3d*


----------



## jincuteguy

djinferno806 said:


> The difference is not the volume only. My DT 770 250 ohm on my z sounded totally different and anemic compared to when I bought my zxr. The zxr can definitely power 250 ohm cans sufficiently.
> 
> And the zxr does 50 mW into 600 ohm not 250 ohm. At 250 ohm it will deliver enough power for your DT 990. I wouldn't worry. The headphone amp in the z/zx can't put out the same power however I never had the distortion problem, that typically is a driver issue. The maxim headphone amp in the z only puts out 125 mW at 32 ohms so at 250 ohm it would definitely be below what's needed.
> 
> Best bet is to try your headphones on a different amp and see .




Why did you return the ZxR and went with the Z?


----------



## DJINFERNO806

jincuteguy said:


> Why did you return the ZxR and went with the Z?





I didnt, I sold my Z and bought the ZXR. I initially wanted the ZXR but it was not available near me so I went with the Z to see if I liked the software studio and support for older games. Once the ZXR was available, I jumped on it.


----------



## jincuteguy

djinferno806 said:


> I didnt, I sold my Z and bought the ZXR. I initially wanted the ZXR but it was not available near me so I went with the Z to see if I liked the software studio and support for older games. Once the ZXR was available, I jumped on it.




So how is the ZxR compare to the Z? I bought the ZxR to try it out like last week. And I already returned it. And I want to try out the Z to see if the difference is huge or not much. If it's not too much, then I would keep the Z.
But since you already tried out the Z and now u been using the ZxR. Do you think there is a "huge" difference in sound quality (bass, treble, mid, clarity, ) between the two? Cause $100 difference is kinda a lot between these 2 cards. 
 I don't really need the ACM from the ZxR.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

I noticed a huge difference with the zxr. Its a lot cleaner, less bloated bass and the highs don't Peirce my ears like with the z , they are smoother I guess I would say. I feel like its a more neutral sound in comparison. The z seemed warmer. Also it seems to power my DT 770's much better especially since they are 250 ohm. 

But for sure the clarity was a difference. If you compare the line outs then it might be less of a difference but the headphone out on the z isn't as high in snr. 

If you aren't using high quality headphones then the would be fine I guess. At the end of the day its all how u perceive the sound. 

Part of me also has this ocd where I have to have the best.


----------



## jincuteguy

What sound card did you have before you got the ZxR? Asus Xonar Essence STX? or? Also, what headphone are u using?


----------



## DJINFERNO806

I had the Stx, and as I mentioned before I'm using DT 770 250 ohm


----------



## sor1n

Quote: 





djinferno806 said:


> I had the Stx, and as I mentioned before I'm using DT 770 250 ohm


 
  Awesome, thanks for your input. I also had the stx so im looking closely at this new card.


----------



## apav

Quote: 





djinferno806 said:


> I noticed a huge difference with the zxr. Its a lot cleaner, less bloated bass and the highs don't Peirce my ears like with the z , they are smoother I guess I would say. I feel like its a more neutral sound in comparison. The z seemed warmer. Also it seems to power my DT 770's much better especially since they are 250 ohm.
> 
> But for sure the clarity was a difference. If you compare the line outs then it might be less of a difference but the headphone out on the z isn't as high in snr.
> 
> ...


 
  So in your opinion is the ZXR or just keeping the ZX and getting an external amp like the Magni the better upgrade? I would think ZXR because you get the improved DAC, among other things, while with the Magni it's just an amp.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

I would definitely say zxr because at this price range will never find a better DAC/Headamp combo.  However if price is not a problem then there are way better amp, dac's out there especially if you want to build your own or mix and match.  
   
  And if you want the gaming features and surround then zxr is really your only option right now.  Plus its 1 device neatly in your PC and you dont have to have a chain of devices or sources lying around.


----------



## jincuteguy

djinferno806 said:


> I would definitely say zxr because at this price range will never find a better DAC/Headamp combo.  However if price is not a problem then there are way better amp, dac's out there especially if you want to build your own or mix and match.
> 
> And if you want the gaming features and surround then zxr is really your only option right now.  Plus its 1 device neatly in your PC and you dont have to have a chain of devices or sources lying around.




What DAC / Amp combo that is better than the ZxR?


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Take your pick, there are dac's and amps on this site reviewed that I have seen that ran into the thousands of dollars.


----------



## Anarion

Guys and gals, I really want to know something. If you have HD 595 or HD 598 (or something comparable when it comes to sensitivity), what is the volume level you use in windows (through headphone amp and line out)? There are few who think their cards are way too loud (including me). But since so few complain it, I want to find out if there's an issue.


----------



## xnor

According to the theory (http://www.head-fi.org/t/668238/headphones-sensitivity-impedance-required-v-i-p-amplifier-gain) it should be around -35 dB to -20 dB depending on what music you listen to. For ZxR you should have to subtract another 10 dB with high gain.
   
  In Vista/7 you can open the Windows Sound control panel -> properties of your playback device -> level -> right click the slider and select decibel instead of percent.


----------



## Anarion

xnor said:


> According to the theory (http://www.head-fi.org/t/668238/headphones-sensitivity-impedance-required-v-i-p-amplifier-gain) it should be around -35 dB to -20 dB depending on what music you listen to. For ZxR you should have to subtract another 10 dB with high gain.
> 
> In Vista/7 you can open the Windows Sound control panel -> properties of your playback device -> level -> right click the slider and select decibel instead of percent.


I'm at -34,6 dB (10%), yet I have to use ACM to lower it much farther because without it set to around 50%-66%, it would blast my ears to kingdom come. ACM even at 100% still lowers the volume a bit. Without ACM, I'd have to use -45 dB to -50 dB (< ~5%). When using it through line out that is.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Quote: 





xnor said:


> According to the theory (http://www.head-fi.org/t/668238/headphones-sensitivity-impedance-required-v-i-p-amplifier-gain) it should be around -35 dB to -20 dB depending on what music you listen to. For ZxR you should have to subtract another 10 dB with high gain.
> 
> In Vista/7 you can open the Windows Sound control panel -> properties of your playback device -> level -> right click the slider and select decibel instead of percent.


 
  Im a bit confused by this.  For headphones out, wouldnt the only way to control the audio level be through windows? (not including the ACM which has already been shown to cause unwanted degradation in signal for a lot of people).  So wouldnt the windows volume depend on your own listening levels and fatigue?  
   
  And for line out, why not just leave it at 100% and then control the volume through the speakers volume knob?
   
   
*EDIT: * Nvm, *Aarion* I just read your newer post about you having the windows volume set at 10%.  Thats pretty insane how loud your headphones are driven, but then again they are 50 ohm right?  So i guess pretty easy to drive by the headamp.
   
  My DT 770 250 ohm are usually at 30-50% depending on what game or music is playing.


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

With the ZO2.1 amp I'm using I would also have to be at like 9-10% if amp volume is maxed on the ZxR with the 64 ohm Q40 headphones. Kind of scary how loud it would be at max vol (amp + source) xD


----------



## xnor

Yeah, with a 2V source _many _headphones (as in the thread posted above) need negative gain, i.e. less than unity,  to reach dangerous levels especially with compressed (electronica, pop, metal ...) music.


----------



## Axaion

Ive got the HD598's and i use 23% windows volume, although, my foobar is at 20% on top of that.


----------



## Anarion

^^How about if you do not limit the volume in Foobar? From my own experience HD 598's are tiny bit less sensitive but quite close.



djinferno806 said:


> Im a bit confused by this.  For headphones out, wouldnt the only way to control the audio level be through windows? (not including the ACM which has already been shown to cause unwanted degradation in signal for a lot of people).  So wouldnt the windows volume depend on your own listening levels and fatigue?
> 
> And for line out, why not just leave it at 100% and then control the volume through the speakers volume knob?
> 
> ...



If I use the built in amp, 8% would be max and on top of that I'd have to set ACM to ~50%. Yeah, these are 50 ohm but the 112 dB SPL is probably the main issue. Makes me want to buy headphones that are nowhere near as sensitive. Why on earth they don't put an option to adjust the analogue gain down? I mean, this card defaults to 66% if I remember correctly. Even LOTR soundtrack will destroy your ears at that level.


----------



## Radical_53

What I don't get, especially when looking at that chart, is how I can use my Ultrasones at 50% for gaming or 25% for music (Foobar at 100%), all without the ACM. 
 They're rated 116dB SPL, 40 ohms (though I remember 35 from somewhere else) and no, I'm not deaf


----------



## xnor

Do you have the HFI 580 or 780?


----------



## Radical_53

780s.


----------



## xnor

Ok, do you have the Z/Zx or the ZxR and have you plugged the headphone in the rear hp-out, not line-out?
   
  Because you should have to set the volume even lower than Anarion...


----------



## DJINFERNO806

I will say this, the Z's headamp doesnt put out anywhere near the power as the ZXR(I had the Z before buying ZXR).  My DT 770 had to be at 70% with the Z to power games and music properly.  With the ZXR, I have to have it at 20-30% or I will blow my Ears to hell.
   
  Im assuming he has the ZXR.


----------



## Radical_53

Yes, I'm using the ZXR. I tried both the line-out and the headphone out and stayed with the latter due to positional audio in combination with SBX (felt off when using line outs).


----------



## Anarion

radical_53 said:


> What I don't get, especially when looking at that chart, is how I can use my Ultrasones at 50% for gaming or 25% for music (Foobar at 100%), all without the ACM.
> 
> They're rated 116dB SPL, 40 ohms (though I remember 35 from somewhere else) and no, I'm not deaf



O_O I guess there's something else too than just ohm rating and SPL. At 25% I could use these as speakers (through line out unamped), even with ACM (set to 100% though).


----------



## xnor

I'm speechless as well. Something's completely off.


----------



## SkipPP

How many of you have this  series of sound card and like (or hate) it? I have an HT Omega Claro, and it has served me well, but I am getting the itch to upgrade. Are you happy with your Z series Creative card?


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

Quote: 





skippp said:


> How many of you have this  series of sound card and like (or hate) it? I have an HT Omega Claro, and it has served me well, but I am getting the itch to upgrade. Are you happy with your Z series Creative card?


 
   
  Is it the PCI or PCI-E (pci-express) version? My motherboard has no PCI slots, could swap my ZxR card possibly for one, it's the last manufacturer I haven't tried then lol. HT Omega doesn't seem to be sold in europe either.


----------



## Radical_53

I can only tell you what I hear and yes, of course it's "loud" for gaming. A room full of sound. But it's nothing like ear-piercing loud, or painfully loud, or unbelievably loud. 
  On the other hand I always found these headphones to be very "thankful" for amping. The sound got much richer and fuller with the right amp.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Quote: 





skippp said:


> How many of you have this  series of sound card and like (or hate) it? I have an HT Omega Claro, and it has served me well, but I am getting the itch to upgrade. Are you happy with your Z series Creative card?


 
  I love my ZXR.  No flaws that I can see whattsoever, has just as much if not more power than my old STX to drive headphones.  However its the audio suite that really makes me happy.  SBX studio is a step up from STX control panel especially for gaming.  SBX surround is just better than Dolby Headphoens and CMSS3d in my opinion.   It doesnt add stupid reverb like your in a hall like DH and it doesnt destroy the eq like CMSS 3d.  And it seems to be more accurate than those 2 as well.
   
  All this coupled with the fact that you can use alchemy for older Directsound games is awesome.  There are people on here belly aching about no hardware support for EAX or directsound, but let me tell you alchemy and EAX emulation through software has worked wonders for me.  I just bought a bunch of older games through the steam summer sale and most of them support EAX.  Splinter Cell Chaos Theory, Doom 3 and Prince of Persia series are all working amazing with EAX and/or direct sound on.
   
  So if you are a big gamer then this is really your only option at this time.  The Asus Phoebus is a joke and shouldnt even be considered by real gamers or audio enthusiasts.


----------



## genclaymore

Dolby headphone adds the echo when you are using Mode 2 and Mode 3, Mode 1 do not add any echo or reverb. I used mode 1 all the time when I had a Xonar card.  Most people that says Dolby headphone sound like reverb is usually using Mode 2 or 3. Instead of Mode 1 which is Ref.


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

Quote: 





genclaymore said:


> Dolby headphone adds the echo when you are using Mode 2 and Mode 3, Mode 1 do not add any echo or reverb. I used mode 1 all the time when I had a Xonar card.  Most people that says Dolby headphone sound like reverb is usually using Mode 2 or 3. Instead of Mode 1 which is Ref.


 
   
  Actually mode 2 "Living Room" has the least amount of echo, I use it therefore for my custom foobar2000 config. I used to use DH-1 at first but noticed DH-2 had less and provided better quality without masking fine details.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Regardless of how much echo each mode has, they all have it.  That was my first impression when using DH, is "why does it sound like im in a hallway?".  
   
  But for sure Mode 2 was the better of the 3.  Mode 1 wasnt as accurate with position and mode 3 had too much reverb effect.


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

Well in my experience you need some reverb to simulate room effects, reverb can help to bring large soundstaging, it's very hard to do so without added reverb. To my ears there's barely any added reverb with my foobar2000 config but I haven't tested the ASUS cards enough to tell what's the case using it on those.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Fair enough and if sbx has any its negligible because I can't tell. The biggest difference is it doesn't muck up the eq as bad and it seems to have better accuracy.

But hey to each their own right?


----------



## genclaymore

Quote: 





rpgwizard said:


> Actually mode 2 "Living Room" has the least amount of echo, I use it therefore for my custom foobar2000 config. I used to use DH-1 at first but noticed DH-2 had less and provided better quality without masking fine details.


 

 I tried both mode 1 and 2 and for me on the Xonar STX I found mode 1 to not have any reverb, while mode 2 to have alot of it. Maybe it was the way the Xonar STX did Dolby headphone, But I know I gotten the best results with mode 1 in games, using a pair of AKG 702 I had at the time. But like you said you did a custom config for foobar2k, maybe the foobar2k plugin has the settings different for each modes. Over what the STX had.


----------



## lwhitit

Purchased the ZXR two weeks ago and have loved it so far. Huge improvement over my previous setup and the surround sound effects work really well. I couldn't hear any difference connecting my HD650s to the ACM vs direct to the card but I am not an audiophile by any means going to try and a modi - magni stack next to see how it compares.


----------



## Anarion

I'm quite surprised that you have to keep the volume that low even with HD 650 - I assume you use the high gain option?


----------



## lwhitit

anarion said:


> I'm quite surprised that you have to keep the volume that low even with HD 650 - I assume you use the high gain option?


   


   
  Nope just using the low gain option. The warning labels on the high gain option deterred me from trying it out, should i try that out? The sound is great so i am not complaining, I just made the comment since others have mentioned it in the thread.


----------



## Blid

Hello you know where I can be downloading some profiles configured for zrx?


----------



## Anarion

lwhitit said:


> Nope just using the low gain option. The warning labels on the high gain option deterred me from trying it out, should i try that out? The sound is great so i am not complaining, I just made the comment since others have mentioned it in the thread.


Well, at those volume levels I wouldn't.


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

Been testing the ZxR again a little, it definitely seems to ignore windows control panel speaker settings in favor for Z-Series Control Panel (Skyrim that has broken positioning unless using 5.1 speakers didn't sound right until I turned on 5.1 speakers in Creative cpanel). For me my preferred setting is RCA outputs -> 5.1 Speakers in Creative control panel and only "Full Range" speaker options ("front left and right" and "surround speakers)  both enabled and everything like SBX etc disabled. This gets me closest to onboard soundstaging. With onboard I then also used to turn "Front" volume level in "Levels" tab in windows control panel to 97-98% down from 100% (it's like an additional volume slider of some sort but doesn't work quite like it) which do affect how the soundstage is processed (less in-your-face, more widespread and deeper) and this lead to even more natural and better soundstaging when using 5.1 speakers. With the Creative card there's no such volume slider so I don't get to adjust the soundstage in a similar way. The Creative card remains therefore a bit worse soundstage wise. I hate this....

 Went from ASRock Extreme6 to ASUS Z87 ROG Maximus VI Gene only because the ASRock onboard chip had very noticeable EMI noise bleed. Well the ASUS Gene motherboard then again has NO EMI noise issues whatsoever but the config doesn't sound as good as the Extreme6 sound quality wise (too bassy, lack of mids and highs, muffled sounding). The Extreme6 does sound actually suprisingly close to ZxR sound quality wise (and balance-wise, very slightly less bass but mids and highs are suprisingly great) if using the amped front panel jack output (rear panel is definitely much worse sounding) but the EMI is a bit much on that board. MAAAAAAAAAN, do I hate this stuff.... seems like it's meant to be that I won't be able to find that ideal sound of mine.
   
  X_x


----------



## Anarion

If you really want the best audio quality when listening to standard stereo sources (when using headphone), uninstall speaker setup (especially important when using line out or the speaker position compensation will likely mess the sound stage, it totally destroyed it in my case), select 2.0 full range from windows CP, select stereo from creative CP and disable SBX.

When gaming, select 5.1 from windows (it's probably best to untick the full range option or it seems to boost bass), select headphone mode in creative cp and use headphone out and enable sbx if you want proper mixing (i.e. sounds behind you will sound different).


----------



## DJINFERNO806

I would leave the full range option on to be honest.  Let the Z/ZXR and your headphones figure out the LFE cutoff instead of letting windows do it for you.  I dont trust the windows mixer with anything to be honest lol.  Especially if it thinks you have a sub, it would seem you would lose some of the LFE signal or it would just never make it to your headphones.  If I could WASAPI/ ASIO my entire computer I would.
   
  Would the speaker setup still mess up the sound stage even if you never ran it once?  There really isnt an option to uninstall it seperatly for me.


----------



## Cullen Hoag

Quote: 





rpgwizard said:


> Been testing the ZxR again a little, it definitely seems to ignore windows control panel speaker settings in favor for Z-Series Control Panel (Skyrim that has broken positioning unless using 5.1 speakers didn't sound right until I turned on 5.1 speakers in Creative cpanel). For me my preferred setting is RCA outputs -> 5.1 Speakers in Creative control panel and only "Full Range" speaker options ("front left and right" and "surround speakers)  both enabled and everything like SBX etc disabled. This gets me closest to onboard soundstaging. With onboard I then also used to turn "Front" volume level in "Levels" tab in windows control panel to 97-98% down from 100% (it's like an additional volume slider of some sort but doesn't work quite like it) which do affect how the soundstage is processed (less in-your-face, more widespread and deeper) and this lead to even more natural and better soundstaging when using 5.1 speakers. With the Creative card there's no such volume slider so I don't get to adjust the soundstage in a similar way. The Creative card remains therefore a bit worse soundstage wise. I hate this....
> 
> Went from ASRock Extreme6 to ASUS Z87 ROG Maximus VI Gene only because the ASRock onboard chip had very noticeable EMI noise bleed. Well the ASUS Gene motherboard then again has NO EMI noise issues whatsoever but the config doesn't sound as good as the Extreme6 sound quality wise (too bassy, lack of mids and highs, muffled sounding). The Extreme6 does sound actually suprisingly close to ZxR sound quality wise (and balance-wise, very slightly less bass but mids and highs are suprisingly great) if using the amped front panel jack output (rear panel is definitely much worse sounding) but the EMI is a bit much on that board. MAAAAAAAAAN, do I hate this stuff.... seems like it's meant to be that I won't be able to find that ideal sound of mine.
> 
> X_x


 
  The mixer setting allowed me to change the 'slider' as you call it.  I have a recon3d and it is the same interface from what I have seen.  What do you have in the mixer tab of the creative control panel?


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

Quote: 





cullen hoag said:


> The mixer setting allowed me to change the 'slider' as you call it.  I have a recon3d and it is the same interface from what I have seen.  What do you have in the mixer tab of the creative control panel?


 
   
  No, they look the same but in Realtek there's a slider that's separate from windows volume control. Maybe have to retry an ASUS card, I believe C-Media is behind Realtek driver software too? There is a "Wave" slider apart from "left" and "right" with ASUS cards which probably is the same as "Front" slider in Realtek drivers. EDIT: Screw that, Wave is just part of win xp.
   
  That "Front"-volume slider in Realtek I just happen to stumble upon as I needed finer adjustment of volume levels. When moving windows volume 1% did slightly too much when you were using in conjunction with headphone amp, I wanted like 0.5% increase. The Front audio slider had much finer precision but then I also started noticing, hey why do the music suddenly sound wider and deeper....


----------



## icynrvna

Hi, What would be the best settings for a 2.1 speaker system? Previously i had this setup:

Windows Sound Panel: Stereo
Sound Blaster Settings: Stereo + SBX ON

Now i have it setup to this:

Windows Sound Panel: 5.1 (rear, sides, sub disabled)
Sound Blaster Settings: 5.1 (rear, sides, sub disabled) + SBX ON
   
Im using a Edifier HCS2330 2.1 system. Also should i enable Full Range Settings for all channels using this speaker? Thanks alot


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Quote: 





icynrvna said:


> Hi, What would be the best settings for a 2.1 speaker system? Previously i had this setup:
> 
> Windows Sound Panel: Stereo
> Sound Blaster Settings: Stereo + SBX ON
> ...


 
   
  Dont disable any speakers in windows control panel because you will be missing channel information from the windows mixer.  That is if you want virtual surround from SBX.
   
  In Sound Blaster, list your speaker setting as 2.1, left and right and sub.  Then enable SBX.  
   
  You are messing up your sound with your current settings and losing channels/information.  If you dont want virtual surround from SBX, then just 2.1 in windows and 2.1 in Sound blaster with no SBX.  
   
  The full range option depends on if your subwoofer/control box for your speakers has a crossover/LFE filter?  If it does then just enable full range in both windows and sound blaster and let it decide, thats what I do for my receiver to my speakers.  However if it cant filter LFE then enable full range in windows but not in Sound blaster and let it decide before going to speakers.
   
  Do your speakers take a 2.1 signal or is it just a line out left and right?


----------



## icynrvna

The left and right satellite speakers connect to the sub using rca plugs and then the sub connects to the computer using a 3.5mm plug. But since im using a ZXR, i have a 3.5mm to dual rca connection.
   
  heres the product info on my speakers:
   
http://www.edifier-international.com/products/edifier-multimedia/hcs2330


----------



## DJINFERNO806

So then leave full range on in both windows and sound blaster panel.  Let your amp and sub decide how to handle crossover.
   
  In my audio experience it is always best to let the hardware handle the crossover as it will know what the speakers will reproduce and wont.  The difference would be if you had a cheap set of 2.0 speakers then i would let sound blaster zxr decide before sending signal out.
   
  For my headphone listening, I have windows at full range and then I let the ZXR decide how to send out the signal via SBX hrtf.
   
  For my hdmi out to my Denon receiver, I have it set at full range too and then let the receiver handle the crossover as I have set my crossover in my denon to what I want and is optimal.


----------



## Fegefeuer

Does your Z(xR) also revert back from full range after restart when using headphones (speakers are fine)? Someone here (or official forums) mentioned a creative rep stating this is intended for SBX (not to use full range on headphones).


----------



## Radical_53

Yes, mine does it too. Any idea where you saw that quote, or what the intention behind this may have been?


----------



## Fegefeuer

I wish I could find it. I'll be mailing Creative about this.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Ya mine reverts as well I just noticed it.  oh well.
   
  I do remember reading that on the official creative forums that they said you shouldnt use full range.   And I think it was me who mentioned it here some months ago.
   
  For the life of me I cant see why you should use this but w.e 
   
  I assume they know best.


----------



## Anarion

djinferno806 said:


> Ya mine reverts as well I just noticed it.  oh well.
> 
> I do remember reading that on the official creative forums that they said you shouldnt use full range.   And I think it was me who mentioned it here some months ago.
> 
> ...


To me it sound like it will boost the bass oddly if you select everything as full range (when I tested it that way).

I noticed that HRTF stuff works even when using line out. If you select stereo full range speakers from sound blaster CP and the the standard 5.1 form windows CP and then enable SBX it will mix the 5.1 to stereo. Sounds kinda acceptable when SBX is at 10%. I'll do that every time I play Skyrim for now on.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

The hrtf will work just not as effective as the headphone out. Remember its trying to place a surround image from in front of you as though you have speakers. And I'm sure the effectiveness of this depends on the speaker position settings in that setup program. 

I didn't want the hassle and downsides of all this just for a cleaner signal from the line outs, so I just got the zxr and added benefit of a really goof headamp .


----------



## Anarion

I have uninstalled speaker setup thingy because it messed up sound stage through line out when using headphones. Without it all is fine. Since I will use SBX only in Skyrim, this works well enough (and I use only line out). I highly prefer how OpenAL games sound through line out vs. headphone out (even in stereo mode with SBX disabled - it adds proper HRTF anyway in OpenAL). Spacious yet still accurate, great positioning behind too vs. all in your head muddy.


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

Quote: 





anarion said:


> I have uninstalled speaker setup thingy because it messed up sound stage through line out when using headphones. Without it all is fine. Since I will use SBX only in Skyrim, this works well enough (and I use only line out). I highly prefer how OpenAL games sound through line out vs. headphone out (even in stereo mode with SBX disabled - it adds proper HRTF anyway in OpenAL). Spacious yet still accurate, great positioning behind too vs. all in your head muddy.


 
   
  I too preferred line-out HRTF wise with speaker setup thing not installed, headphone jack just sounds too much in-your-head. It sounded pretty decent like that.  (still I returned in the end to the audio solution on ALC1150 which just sounds suprisingly good on the ASRock Extreme6 mobo, you'd be suprised, it's more of a analytical/detail sound than "fun", all my headphones plugged in sounds waaaaaaaaay better than last onboard chip, almost like night and day difference). For the suprisingly small difference SQ-wise and even better marginally better "out-of-your-head" soundstage experience with onboard, I just have a hardtime to justify the cost of ZxR in my case.

 So how does ASRock Extreme6's ALC1150 with onboard TI NE5532 opamps sound in comparision to ZxR;

 ALC1150 has:
  - Tiiiny bit less bass
  - Mids are very slightly less "thick" / fullbodied / warm, the ALC1150 still has very nice mids though
  - Highs are slightly less "raspy/rough". There's a very tiiiiny bit excess of roughness to the highs to my ears on ZxR but it only shows up here and there, most of the time it's just fine. The onboard solution on the ASRock mobo has pretty much equal presence overall, it's just that tiny bit less roughness, never coming out as too rough in the texture.
  - If using certain settings, the soundstage can be sliiightly more expansive on the onboard (blame it on the Creative software / drivers)
   
  For me and my headphones I prefer the bass, highs and soundstage of onboard but the mids of ZxR. I've also briefly tested an ASUS VI Gene which also features ALC1150 but different caps + opamp but it cannot compare to the ASRock one, seems like they've used too many caps or the opamp doesn't work too well. The caps are actually marketed as "filtering out some high frequency peaks in order to optimize bass". Well guess they went a bit overboard with that as Gene is veeeeeeerryyy bassy, even more so than ZxR and lacks mids and highs detail & presence, the ASRock sounds so much more "pure" in comparison, more unmodified along the way so don't expect all ALC1150 solutions to sound great because the ASUS one didn't come near enough to the ASRock or ZxR, it was the quite typical "muffled" onboard sound, weird! In measurements I've seen so far the ASRock also seem to have the highest dynamic range between ALC1150 equipped mobos but it does have some slight issues with noise that it's not properly excluded/shielded but for me the sound quality makes up for it (turning down the amp volume slightly removes it).

 This is probably the last post about onboard vs ZxR but I just find it so fascinating that I sell a 200 EUR flagship Creative card in favor for onboard. I don't mind paying for a decent source but what to do if paying for it doesn't grant you satisfaction?


----------



## Fegefeuer

djinferno806 said:


> Ya mine reverts as well I just noticed it.  oh well.
> 
> I do remember reading that on the official creative forums that they said you shouldnt use full range.   And I think it was me who mentioned it here some months ago.
> 
> ...


 
   
  A proper Audyssey setup has all the speakers defined as small speakers with a crossover at 80Hz or below, so that the complex filtes and algorithms of Audyssey handle the LFE part, which they do very very good. All good measurement systems do this, it's just that receiver manufacturers often do it wrong or don't care in their software. Like older Denons. Mine for instance (from 2010) does full range by default. 
   
  SBX does this as well, abiding by that standard, both virtual and physical 5.1 (they replied to me on Facebook). 
    

Remember that SBX is more complex than Dolby Headphone, it can do more (like proper HRTF) than just put virtual speakers around you and let them play. Even the latter it does much better without any reverb and with even front/rear/left/right etc. balance/depth. EQ SBX and see how CMSS_3D sense of air (in comparison) is much more about elevated highs and reduced bass than algorithms.
   
  I use full range with my 2.0 speaker setup. If people use 5.1 they should let their LFE handle everything below 80Hz (assuming the rest can go as low as 80Hz), though I don't believe you can have quality 5.1 on a desk.


----------



## Anarion

rpgwizard said:


> I too preferred line-out HRTF wise with speaker setup thing not installed, headphone jack just sounds too much in-your-head. It sounded pretty decent like that.  (still I returned in the end to the audio solution on ALC1150 which just sounds suprisingly good on the ASRock Extreme6 mobo, you'd be suprised, it's more of a analytical/detail sound than "fun", all my headphones plugged in sounds waaaaaaaaay better than last onboard chip, almost like night and day difference). For the suprisingly small difference SQ-wise and even better marginally better "out-of-your-head" soundstage experience with onboard, I just have a hardtime to justify the cost of ZxR in my case.
> 
> 
> So how does ASRock Extreme6's ALC1150 with onboard TI NE5532 opamps sound in comparision to ZxR;
> ...



My mobo has ALC892 which, well, sucks and the specs prove it. ALC1150 is way better, assuming that the motherboard can protect the audio part from interference it should be quite nice.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Quote: 





fegefeuer said:


> A proper Audyssey setup has all the speakers defined as small speakers with a crossover at 80Hz or below, so that the complex filtes and algorithms of Audyssey handle the LFE part, which they do very very good. All good measurement systems do this, it's just that receiver manufacturers often do it wrong or don't care in their software. Like older Denons. Mine for instance (from 2010) does full range by default.
> 
> SBX does this as well, abiding by that standard, both virtual and physical 5.1 (they replied to me on Facebook).
> 
> ...


 
   
   
  This is why I leave my HDMI out to my receiver from my GTX 680 as full range, I let my DENON's audyssey do the LFE crossover because its been tuned to properly handle it.  It doesnt make sense to filter crossover once on the PC and then AGAIN on my DENON.  
   
  But it does make sense that SBX handles the LFE itself, I can understand its vital to the proper reproduction of HRTF.
   
   
   
  Speaking on the ALC1150, the biggest flaw I still see is the lack of an AMP to power more audiophile class headphones.  That and I think losing out on what SBX surround can offer is a huge point too.  However for the masses who are using RAZER and STEELSERIES headsets, the ALC 1150 should be fine.  But I thought it is worth mentioning since this is Head fi after all.
   
  Also what is the output impedence of the ALC 1150's headphone port as that would play a huge part in how your headphones will sound.


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

Quote: 





djinferno806 said:


> Speaking on the ALC1150, the biggest flaw I still see is the lack of an AMP to power more audiophile class headphones.  That and I think losing out on what SBX surround can offer is a huge point too.  However for the masses who are using RAZER and STEELSERIES headsets, the ALC 1150 should be fine.  But I thought it is worth mentioning since this is Head fi after all.
> 
> Also what is the output impedence of the ALC 1150's headphone port as that would play a huge part in how your headphones will sound.


 
   
  It's rated to handle up to 600 ohm headphones with onboard opamps, while maybe not with ideal quality, the loudness is certainly there =) Stop speaking bad about a product you haven't even tested. I've used bunch of Audigy cards in the past, then tested ASUS Xonar D2, Titanium HD and ZxR. Seriously the onboard chips are also getting better. I couldn't stand Realtek chips like 6 years ago for more than a min or two, today I'm really satisfied with what's available on ASRock Z87 Extreme6 (if using 5.1 speaker config to open up the soundstaging, since that's what Realtek do well, Stereo is so-so on the other hand).  Getting tired of this constant dissing of products people aren't up-to-date with.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

I think you need to relax and not jump down my throat.

Where did I diss your beloved product? I'm pretty sure my post still remained objective and I listed 1 possible downside and 1 personall downside to me when compared to the zxr.... I even asked a legitimate question about the output impedance...

You really pissed me off now because I've done nothing but provide usuefull info and help those out in this thread.

If your mad about those dissing your product then go talk to them... Your post was unnecessary.


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

Quote: 





djinferno806 said:


> However for the masses who are using RAZER and STEELSERIES headsets, the ALC 1150 should be fine.  But I thought it is worth mentioning since this is Head fi after all.


 
   
  I found this very offensive, that's passively indicating my ears are **** and doesn't hear what HQ is about that it's only good for low quality products....


----------



## DJINFERNO806

The general gaming public uses headsets that are designated gaming because they are marketed that way and they are easier to drive and don't need amping. This was my whole point, THEY DONT NEED AMPING and are generally designed around that.

Those brands were just an example, but I could list off others.


----------



## genclaymore

Yea the whole "gaming" marketing works on the general public, heck it even worked on me before I got into this hobby, as I used to have all types of gaming marketed headsets, Forcefeedback headphones and 3 5.1 headset's which the last one I had being a Razer Barracuda HP1 witht he AC1 sound card, that was many years ago. Even tho there are dozen of headphones that you can attach a mic to using the mod mic or some clip on mic. That doesn't need to be used with a amp. Because lets get real, not ever high quailty headphones need to be used with a amp to sound good. Look at the A900X(A900)A700x(A700),DT770 32ohm ,Superlux 668b/681b and many more. All the easy to driven HQ headphones needs is a decent source and that's it.  I could run my A900X from my onboard audio if I wanted to,but I wont as I have better audio source.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Seems the asrock extreme 4 actually has a TI headamp attached to the alc 1150 and emi shielding for the analog parts. Does sound promising. I could see it being on par with the z minus the sbx studio features.

My fault for not doing more research on it.


----------



## Anarion

djinferno806 said:


> Seems the asrock extreme 4 actually has a TI headamp attached to the alc 1150 and emi shielding for the analog parts. Does sound promising. I could see it being on par with the z minus the sbx studio features.
> 
> My fault for not doing more research on it.


That can be fixed... http://www.creative.com/oem/products/software/x-fimb3.asp Some manufacturers include that software.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Did some more testing with sbx surround slider. Also took into account what users are reporting.

This is for headphone out.

The conclusion seems to always be that 67% default is the best all around setting. When you go higher it seems to increase positional accuracy but prematurely muffle sounds based on distance. If you go lower you start to lose surround presence and has less impact or "punch". 

Of course your preference might differ and whatever sounds best to you is the right choice but at least now you have something to help make a decision.


----------



## Anarion

When using SBX, 20% is my favourite at the moment at least (when using line out).


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Ya sorry forgot to say that was for headphone out not line out.


----------



## Fegefeuer

I'll record some games with 67% vs. 100% SBX Headphone this week.


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

For me it was 67% if windows control panel set to 5.1 speakers and 91% if speaker config set to "stereo" (windows control panel). SBX worked better with stereo speakers + 91% than 5.1 with 67% though to my ears but I'm unsure whether for most games simply using 5.1 speakers with SBX disabled vs stereo speakers + 91% SBX -- like which truly was better.
   
  With 5.1 speakers it sounded most natural at 67%, moving to either ends just seemed to get more unnatural positioning of things. When using Stereo speaker config again the sound/staging with SBX becomes quite different (more natural sounding over headphones at least) and I really felt SBX worked better with stereo only with slightly less impact on SQ too. It's a bit shame though because a large amount of games I play sound best with 5.1 speakers so that SBX works less good if using 5.1 was a bit dissappointment for me. I need virtual processing configs that ideally should also be optimized for 5.1 speaker config use because I use that a whole lot of time and I don't want to constantly keep swapping around configs depending what I'm doing.
   
  To test whether which setting worked best for surround I simply used Windowed mode with UT3 with hardware openal disabled so that I can better test software processing and kept running around for a little while and tested different values until I got something which seemed most accurate for me.
   
*NOTE: *Unreal Tournament 3 is probably among the ideal testing scenarios because it allows you to record "demos" at which you will be "playbacking" the exact same scene with the exact same things happening on the screen, perfect for making comparisons with different software sound processing settings.
   
  Check this video I once made between Audigy 2 ZS (with 3rd party kX Audio drivers) vs Titanium HD:


----------



## Radical_53

5.1 speakers in Windows with SBX disabled would lead to lots of sounds missing normally, at least if I'm not missing the obvious here (like someone not using headphones or physical stereo speakers for example).
  67% SBX with 5.1 set in Windows and headphones chosen within the ZXR control panel sounds very nice indeed. I had it at 100% before but this seems to be more natural.


----------



## yjtflI

Does anyone know if these cards will support Dolby DTS Headphone X when it's released?
   

   
  Also, I'm new to head-fi, but aren't headphone amps supposed to be like 1/10th the headphone's ohm rating?   600 ohms seems like a lot.  Is it different with sound cards?
   
  Can you adjust the ohm output in drivers or something?


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

Quote: 





radical_53 said:


> 5.1 speakers in Windows with SBX disabled would lead to lots of sounds missing normally, at least if I'm not missing the obvious here (like someone not using headphones or physical stereo speakers for example).


 
   
  No you aren't, it's a common setting used especially among gamers, there's been threads about it in various forums for many years...

 It processes the signal internally as 5.1 but in the end gets downmixed to stereo and it won't sound the same as if using stereo to begin with. But for SBX try stereo speakers, it works great with that, some1 also besides me said 91% worked well when using stereo speakers (chances are we might different settings though as "HRTF" tweaks are always a bit invidual).


----------



## DJINFERNO806

yjtfli said:


> Does anyone know if these cards will support Dolby DTS Headphone X when it's released?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




If I'm not.mistaken your confusing the output impedence of the card with the supported headphone impedance(or the ability to power the headphone at that stated impedance). The z apparently has 18 ohm output impedence according to someone on here.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong. I'm not an expert on impedance either lol.


In terms of dts headphone X I highly doubt it. Why would creative compete with their own sbx technology.


----------



## Radical_53

Quote: 





rpgwizard said:


> No you aren't, it's a common setting used especially among gamers, there's been threads about it in various forums for many years...
> 
> It processes the signal internally as 5.1 but in the end gets downmixed to stereo and it won't sound the same as if using stereo to begin with.


 
   
  Yes, well: What you're describing is what happens when you have Windows set to 5.1, the card to stereo/headphones and the surround emulation ticked (CMSS-3D or now SBX). You'd end up with stereo though if that option isn't enabled. No center, no rears, no LFE channel.
  At least that's how I remember it and that's one of the main reasons I always had those options enabled.
   
  Using Windows set to stereo SBX would be kind of "upsampling" and guessing some of the audio, which in theory isn't a good idea to me. I'd always want the "downsampled" result from true 5.1 (or 7.1) audio stream to be processed by the card and I always believed SBX (or CMSS-3D before) was necessary to get that.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Rpgwizard is correct in his point though. 5.1 signal will always be converted to a 2.0 signal at the card driver level. You don't lose the surround channels and lfe. They just get down sampled and incorporated into the stereo mix. You don't lose any channel data. You can listen to a 5.1 voice test track and turn sbx off. You'll hear all the speakers albeit only from the left or right. ( or both for the center)

And in terms of the stereo with sbx enabled it isn't adding or guessing channels or data. It just takes the 2 speakers and places them in a virtual field in front of you. Instead of inside your head. It tries to recreate the natural setup as if you would be in front of 2 speakers. The surround virtual speakers are just not present beacaue you aren't sending a 5.1 signal.


----------



## Radical_53

I didn't mean lose data but simply don't hear anything at all from that particular channel, at least unless SBX or CMSS-3D is activated. That's how I always knew this yet it may be wrong of course.
  The last time I tried this I think I had my speakers hooked up (stereo) and didn't hear anything from the Windows speaker test apart from the obvious front left and right, unless I had SBX enabled. Then every channel within the test application worked as intended.


----------



## yjtflI

Quote: 





djinferno806 said:


> If I'm not.mistaken your confusing the output impedence of the card with the supported headphone impedance(or the ability to power the headphone at that stated impedance). The z apparently has 18 ohm output impedence according to someone on here.
> 
> Someone correct me if I'm wrong. I'm not an expert on impedance either lol.
> 
> ...


 

 here are the specs i can find for SB Z
   
*Output Level (Full Scale)*

 Front Channel Out : 2Vrms
 Headphone (33 ohms): 1.3Vrms
 Headphone (600 ohms): 2Vrms

*Maximum DAC Resolution*

 Front Channel Out : 24-bit, 192kHz
 Headphone (33 ohms): 24-bit, 96kHz
 Headphone (600 ohms): 24-bit, 96kHz

*SNR (20kHz Low-pass filter, A-Wgt), @ 24-bit, 96kHz*

 Front Channel Out : 116dB
 Headphone (33 ohms): >105dB
 Headphone (600 ohms): >105dB

*Frequency Response @ 96kHz*

 Front Channel Out : 10Hz to 45kHz
 Rear Channel Out : 15Hz to 45kHz
 Center Out : 10Hz to 45kHz
 Headphone (33 ohms): 10Hz to 45kHz
   
  Does that help any?
   
  I have a SB Z and am trying to figure out a good set of headphones to use.  I already have some ATH700s and while they're as light as a feather and full of sparkle they have very little boom.  I was thinking about Q701s but the bumps on the headband bother me.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Yup, can still hear all speakers play with sbx off. All working like it should!

Remember windows thinks its outputting sound to a 5.1 capable device, it has no reason to cut any channels. The z does the rest.


----------



## Anarion

djinferno806 said:


> Yup, can still hear all speakers play with sbx off.



Only when using headphone out. If you use line out, that's not the case when you disable SBX (obviously since this card supports 5.1 analogue output).


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Ya I can't speak for line out I don't use it. Just assume I mean headout all the time lol.


----------



## yjtflI

What headphones have you guys tried with the Z or ZX? Did it drive them well enough on it's own?


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Before I traded up to the zxr, I was running my DT 770 250 ohm on the my z. It powered them just fine. 

According to the spec sheet the maxim headphone amp can supply 2V RMS at 600 ohms. If anyone wants to convert that to watts then be my guest. I'm too tired and lazy lol.


----------



## Evshrug

What, again, did you gain by upgrading to the higher spec model? And who do you think would be better served by the Z, or ZxR? Why?


----------



## watsaname

I think by upgrading to the higher tier model  you get better components, more doodads, and the ability to power 600ohm headphones well. Apparently the Z/Zx can't power a 600ohm headphone really well.


----------



## dcx4610

I'm curious as to if anyone can answer this before I pull the trigger on the ZXR.
   
  Right now I have the Creative Z (just regular) and a pair of Sennheiser 590s. They are currently connected to the headphone jack on the Z which supposedly has a decent headphone amp built in. I was looking at a few setups and noticed people were still using DACs despite the headphone amp.
   
  My question is...
   
  1. Should I go with a DAC and connect it with my current Z or is the headphone amp built into the sound card good enough?
   
  or
   
  2. Buy the ZXR. Does the ZXR offer a better DAC? Would a DAC not be needed with the ZXR? Does the little external module function as a headphone amp or do you still use the input on the back of the sound card?
   
  Thanks


----------



## DJINFERNO806

For headphone use, the zxr was a huge upgrade in clarity. It was discussed on here already how the z/zx's head out isn't as good as the line out due to the headamp being a bottleneck in snr. I didnt want to use the line out since I needed the amp and the sbx surround is probably tailored for speakers. That and my z seemed to create a warmer sound with my dt 770 which I've heard is a byproduct of the maxim headamp.

The ZXR's DAC and Headamp are definitely higher quality compared to the z. You wouldn't need an external DAC with it for sure and at this price point I don't think you will get a better DAC to be honest.

The little external module(ACM) is just a volume control module with the beam forming mic built in. The headphone amp is built into the card and you just plug the headphones/acm in the back. Some people including myself notice a slight sound degredation with the ACM so we don't use it.


----------



## dcx4610

Quote: 





djinferno806 said:


> For headphone use, the zxr was a huge upgrade in clarity. It was discussed on here already how the z/zx's head out isn't as good as the line out due to the headamp being a bottleneck in snr. I didnt want to use the line out since I needed the amp and the sbx surround is probably tailored for speakers. That and my z seemed to create a warmer sound with my dt 770 which I've heard is a byproduct of the maxim headamp.
> 
> The ZXR's DAC and Headamp are definitely higher quality compared to the z. You wouldn't need an external DAC with it for sure and at this price point I don't think you will get a better DAC to be honest.
> 
> The little external module(ACM) is just a volume control module with the beam forming mic built in. The headphone amp is built into the card and you just plug the headphones/acm in the back. Some people including myself notice a slight sound degredation with the ACM so we don't use it.


 

 Thanks for the reply. I guess my next question would be with the control module, it has a headphone jack on it. If I used that jack, is it not using the headphone amp? Do you have to use the headphone input on the card itself?


----------



## DJINFERNO806

No its still using the amp. Its just like an extender, the signal is just being sent over another line before getting to your headphones.


----------



## Evshrug

Quote: 





watsaname said:


> I think by upgrading to the higher tier model  you get better components, more doodads, and the ability to power 600ohm headphones well. Apparently the Z/Zx can't power a 600ohm headphone really well.


 
  I have a 62 Ohm AKG Q701 that I am happy to stick with for a long while. Components and foo-dads are too esoteric to assign a benefit to me, just by naming them. Don't want to overspend if I don't have to, may wait for more products to be released.
   
  DJinferno,
  thanks for the extra info.
   
  dcx4610,
  the ACM is just something that can turn down the max volume output from the sound card. Convenience, not an amp.


----------



## registradus

Is the SoundBlaster Z worth the upgrade over a Asus Zonar DG?


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Just alone in the software suite and the SBX studio is a huge upgrade over ANY asus product.  Broken drivers which need community unified support is ridiculous.  The increased sound quality is also a huge difference.
   
  I sold my STX and got a Z just due to the stability of the driver and SBX features.
   
  But its up to you if you have the money.


----------



## Anarion

Here's the link again to the Z/Zx headphone amp specs: http://datasheets.maximintegrated.com/en/ds/MAX97220A-MAX97220E.pdf


----------



## DJINFERNO806

There are reports over at overclock.net that when the windows is set to 5.1 and sbx is off you can't get proper binaural or even stereo to sound normal with the headphone out. But then when setting to 2.0 in windows its fine.

Here is the quote from one of the members;
*
" Yeah, binarual dosent work at all when using 5.1 on the headphone port, or line-out. The barber shop where he goes left and right at around 2:15, it just sounds like its in the middle behind you, where as with stereo selected, its left and right.

I do not have SBX enabled, since i think it sounds horrible, and in any case that just makes it worse.

In any case, this leads me to belive that the drivers are up-sampling the 2.0 source to 5.1 even if it means itll mess it up so bad that it breaks the entire point of it being binaural, i dont even want to know what id miss out on in games because of this.

Is no one else noticing this?, Binaural does not work at all with 5.1 on either line out or headphone out, i have no idea how youre not hearing the massive difference -.-

Maybe its drivers?, im on the newest beta's SBZ_CD_L13_1_00_22 Windows 7 x64"*


So how many of you are getting this issue. Can you check the virtual barbershop video on YouTube and let me know please? I'm curious if it's a driver issue or by design. My zxr doesn't do this.


This demo is even better for binaural effect. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u163wC6mP2A&feature=youtube_gdata_player


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

Could be related to the soundstaging issues I've been experiencing possibly, that's the only reason I don't like the ZxR, if soundstaging would be better I'd love it though.  At least I feel Creative has done _something_ in the Z-series drivers related to speaker config and I don't like this "something", the card otherwise sounds very nice. It's a shame Creative just can't properly optimize sound quality the hardware is capable of, the software is always slightly limiting the potential of the product.
   
  I just wish it was possible to completely BYPASS anything related to Creative software side speaker config tweaks so it just follows standard Windows specs. The reason is that Creative driver panel side seems to control the setting, I wish it simply was possible to get a Windows speaker config + Creative driver panel side 1:1 linked config so Creative does nothing on its own so if you select 5.1 in windows control panel it would also be 5.1 automaticly in Creative panel. It's like getting a "colored soundstage", I just want the pure signal, what's the point of bypassing all effects if the signal isn't unprocessed to begin with.


----------



## Fegefeuer

Quote: 





djinferno806 said:


> There are reports over at overclock.net that when the windows is set to 5.1 and sbx is off you can't get proper binaural or even stereo to sound normal with the headphone out. But then when setting to 2.0 in windows its fine.
> 
> Here is the quote from one of the members;
> 
> ...


 
   
  Just tested both clips. I don't have this issue on my ZxR.


----------



## Axaion

Im the one who made that post, it just downright baffles me that they just have to mess with the signal like that, for speakers, yeah sure, some people want sound in all their speakers even if the source is 2.0, but its a freaking headphone port, if it gets a stereo signal, why would it ever up sample it to 5.1 and then downsample it to 2.0 again for the headphones, best part?.
   
  I cant even post onthe creative forums about this, because they wont activate my account. - not like they would listen anyway, feels kinda bad to go from a Xonar DX to a regluar Z (with gold caps, so its not a recon3d being rebranded thats for sure)
   
  Reason i went away from the xonar was that i wanted a stable card, and the Z is better when its on stereo for me, no sbx or anything enabled, but damn, whats the point when you have to use line-out, those massive clicks when it initializes dont really make me go "yeah, thats totally good for my headphones" :\
   
  its weird fegfuer dosent have the issue, which driver are you on, and OS?


----------



## Anarion

djinferno806 said:


> There are reports over at overclock.net that when the windows is set to 5.1 and sbx is off you can't get proper binaural or even stereo to sound normal with the headphone out. But then when setting to 2.0 in windows its fine.
> 
> Here is the quote from one of the members;
> *
> ...



From my experience, if you use headphone out and select 5.1 is will make it so that the left rear plays as left front etc. but obviously you do not get HRTF processing when SBX is off. In OpenAL games you get proper HRTF everything set to stereo. 5.1 from windows and SBX are only needed for games that do no support vendor openal (i.e. only use generic software) or do not use openAL at all (majority of new games). It's also not needed if you use alchemy for older games. With SBX on, stereo imaging takes rather large hit once you turn it above 20% in my opinion.

Also, if you listen to 2.0 source, you should ALWAYS disable SBX. It only messes up things.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Quote: 





rpgwizard said:


> Could be related to the soundstaging issues I've been experiencing possibly, that's the only reason I don't like the ZxR, if soundstaging would be better I'd love it though.  At least I feel Creative has done _something_ in the Z-series drivers related to speaker config and I don't like this "something", the card otherwise sounds very nice. It's a shame Creative just can't properly optimize sound quality the hardware is capable of, the software is always slightly limiting the potential of the product.
> 
> I just wish it was possible to completely BYPASS anything related to Creative software side speaker config tweaks so it just follows standard Windows specs. The reason is that Creative driver panel side seems to control the setting, I wish it simply was possible to get a Windows speaker config + Creative driver panel side 1:1 linked config so Creative does nothing on its own so if you select 5.1 in windows control panel it would also be 5.1 automaticly in Creative panel. It's like getting a "colored soundstage", I just want the pure signal, what's the point of bypassing all effects if the signal isn't unprocessed to begin with.


 
  You probably mentioned it before but what soundstaging issues are you having exactly?


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

Quote: 





djinferno806 said:


> You probably mentioned it before but what soundstaging issues are you having exactly?


 
   
  Everything just sounds too much "in-your-face" and closed-in from the headphone port especially (I'm missing more around/out of head kind of experience), the line-out is better in this regard but it feels a bit waste of cash to not utilize the headphone amp even if the dac alone is of very high quality too. The same could be said about games, I didn't get that sense of deep soundstage where I could tell enemies are far into the background that I can with onboard (when using 5.1 speakers).


----------



## Anarion

djinferno806 said:


> You probably mentioned it before but what soundstaging issues are you having exactly?


I'd actually like to know that too. There's nothing wrong with the soundstage if you disable all the crap. In this case it means getting rid of speaker setup when using line out, and making sure all SBX stuff is disabled and that everything is set to stereo (from Creative CP and Windows).

@RPGWiZaRD
If you listen to music, it's obviously going to sound crap if you use gaming SBX settings with it. It's going to sound even more in your head if you use SBX close to 100%. It's not quite as bad as CMSS-3D when it comes to messing sound stage but still. If you want it to sound wide, I wouldn't go above 20%.

If you like to experiment with different methods, this is one alternative: http://www.razerzone.com/surround


----------



## DJINFERNO806

For me its the opposite, without SBX it sounds in your head and not natural as it would if you heard a sound in real life.  However SBX for music muddies up the track so I keep it off.  The one thing I will say is it helps listeners fatigue which stereo tends to do to me after a few hours with sounds "in your head".
   
  Ive never experienced sound stage issues, with both my PC350 or DT 770 it is pretty wide.  However those headphones are known for wide sound stages.
   
*RPGwizard,  *maybe the combination of your headphones and the amp or DAC isnt very favourable.  Have you tried other headphones.


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

Quote: 





anarion said:


> I'd actually like to know that too. There's nothing wrong with the soundstage if you disable all the crap. In this case it means getting rid of speaker setup when using line out, and making sure all SBX stuff is disabled and that everything is set to stereo (from Creative CP and Windows).
> 
> @RPGWiZaRD
> If you listen to music, it's obviously going to sound crap if you use gaming SBX settings with it. It's going to sound even more in your head if you use SBX close to 100%. It's not quite as bad as CMSS-3D when it comes to messing sound stage but still. If you want it to sound wide, I wouldn't go above 20%.
> ...


 
   
  Wow for a quick test even without calibration, this worked suprisingly well with not any direct very obvious quality loss (turning off bass boost, normalization etc and just leaving surround on). Gotta play around with this when I get home today


----------



## Fegefeuer

Quote: 





anarion said:


> From my experience, if you use headphone out and select 5.1 is will make it so that the left rear plays as left front etc. but obviously you do not get HRTF processing when SBX is off. In OpenAL games you get proper HRTF everything set to stereo. 5.1 from windows and SBX are only needed for games that do no support vendor openal (i.e. only use generic software) or do not use openAL at all (majority of new games). It's also not needed if you use alchemy for older games. With SBX on, stereo imaging takes rather large hit once you turn it above 20% in my opinion.
> 
> Also, if you listen to 2.0 source, you should ALWAYS disable SBX. It only messes up things.


 
   
  You mean setting 2.0 in the windows panel is needed for every OpenAL game? Shouldn't OpenAL ignore the speaker setting and just send coordinates, distance etc. to the Z(xR)?


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





fegefeuer said:


> You mean setting 2.0 in the windows panel is needed for every OpenAL game? Shouldn't OpenAL ignore the speaker setting and just send coordinates, distance etc. to the Z(xR)?


 
   
  You would think, but the other half of DS3D/OpenAL configuration is setting up the speaker/headphone configuration on the sound card driver side of things so that it knows how to mix things properly.
   
  Keep in mind that Anarion is firmly in the "stereo speaker mode sounds way better than headphone mode" camp, while I'm in the "stereo speaker and headphone modes sound exactly alike with virtual surround off, except in games where not using headphone mode = screwed-up positional audio cues because they're meant for speakers" camp.
   
  Sound Core3D drivers might also handle things differently from X-Fi drivers in ways I can't foresee, especially if the PCIe cards behave quite a bit differently from the Recon3D USB.
   
  All I can say is to experiment and find out what works best for you. The rest of us can give you ideas and tips that have worked for us, but we don't have your ears and sense of hearing now, do we?


----------



## Radical_53

I got around the "in your head" problem by switching out the opamps, at least that's the impression I got after doing so.
  If anyone wants to try, the OPA2228 helped me out here.


----------



## Fegefeuer

I don't get any "in your head" feeling but I am mostly gaming with the HD 800. The Sig DJ isn't in my head either though. 
   
  Quote:


namelesspfg said:


> You would think, but the other half of DS3D/OpenAL configuration is setting up the speaker/headphone configuration on the sound card driver side of things so that it knows how to mix things properly.
> 
> Keep in mind that Anarion is firmly in the "stereo speaker mode sounds way better than headphone mode" camp, while I'm in the "stereo speaker and headphone modes sound exactly alike with virtual surround off, except in games where not using headphone mode = screwed-up positional audio cues because they're meant for speakers" camp.
> 
> ...


 
   
  It was just a question regarding his config. For me both are the same as well.
   
  Anyway, there's a *new Alchemy release (dsound.dll especially)* out that is a year newer than the current one. 
   
  http://fichiers.touslesdrivers.com/38499/Creative_alchemy_1.44.00.zip


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> You would think, but the other half of DS3D/OpenAL configuration is setting up the speaker/headphone configuration on the sound card driver side of things so that it knows how to mix things properly.
> 
> Keep in mind that Anarion is firmly in the "stereo speaker mode sounds way better than headphone mode" camp, while I'm in the "stereo speaker and headphone modes sound exactly alike with virtual surround off, except in games where not using headphone mode = screwed-up positional audio cues because they're meant for speakers" camp.
> 
> ...


 
  Im pretty sure 2.0 isnt necessary since it works both ways in openal games.  You get the hrtf effect with accurate direction either way.
   
  But ya it seems no matter what you set in the creative panel in terms of SBX doesnt matter because it gets turned off as soon as the game launches.  You can witness this if you have it up, the SBX surround button will grey out.  Same with DS3D games when using alchemy.  For the most part the software emulation of these seem to work decently.  Only a few games may need a special registry tweak here and there since alchemy isn't perfect.
   
   
  @Fegefeur
   
  Do you mean that openal is newer than the one included with the Z/ZXR drivers?


----------



## Anarion

fegefeuer said:


> You mean setting 2.0 in the windows panel is needed for every OpenAL game? Shouldn't OpenAL ignore the speaker setting and just send coordinates, distance etc. to the Z(xR)?


Well, it's not needed but since it's OpenAL games, the card knows exactly where the sound is coming so there's no need for 5.1 emulation at all. I'd turn off everything that could possible mess up the sound. You can test it out yourself in Mirror's Edge for example (be sure that it uses the Creative's implementation instead of generic software). The sound is quite a bit different if in headphone mode and stereo mode (from Creative CP), it's the same thing with older cards too (X-Fi, Audigy).


----------



## Fegefeuer

Quote: 





djinferno806 said:


> Im pretty sure 2.0 isnt necessary since it works both ways in openal games.  You get the hrtf effect with accurate direction either way.
> 
> But ya it seems no matter what you set in the creative panel in terms of SBX doesnt matter because it gets turned off as soon as the game launches.  You can witness this if you have it up, the SBX surround button will grey out.  Same with DS3D games when using alchemy.  For the most part the software emulation of these seem to work decently.  Only a few games may need a special registry tweak here and there since alchemy isn't perfect.
> 
> ...


 
   
   I have to correct myself. This is actually the alchemy package and it's the dsound.dll that is newer. sorry for the misinfo. At least it's still something important. 
   
  @Anarion: What I meant is not SBX emu but the 5.1 setting in windows. There are people that say that OpenAL ignores the windows setting because it doesn't need the speaker settings and those that say that OpenAL still needs the 5.1 speaker setting so that the game sends as much info as it can. I am in the latter camp. It makes a difference.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

I have to believe that openal can't ignore the windows settings. After vista all audio engines have to go through the windows mixer unless asio or wasapi plugins are used. However perhaps creatives driver intercepts audio calls because 2.0 and 5.1 don't make a difference to my ears for openal hrtf mix. 

But then again this is through headphome out on thr zxr... Not sure if line outs are different.


----------



## Fegefeuer

Do you have Gears of War?
   
  I remember it making a difference but that was 2007 with Windows XP. Those "shrieking" guys sound more distant and positioned in the space while at 2.0 they sound like they are in your head screaming your ears to death.


----------



## SoFGR

Quote: 





djinferno806 said:


> But ya it seems no matter what you set in the creative panel in terms of SBX doesnt matter because it gets turned off as soon as the game launches.  You can witness this if you have it up, the SBX surround button will grey out.  Same with DS3D games when using alchemy.  For the most part the software emulation of these seem to work decently.  Only a few games may need a special registry tweak here and there since alchemy isn't perfect.


 
  Greyed out ?  I thought you could just alt+tab to re-enable SBX surround  
   
http://forums.creative.com/showthread.php?t=699581
   
  btw has anybody tried SBX surround + ALchemy in a source game  yet ? I miss wallbanging boomers  so  much


----------



## DJINFERNO806

I have never tried re-enabling it by alt tabbing but I don't see why you would. Like I have said before sbx surround is for prebaked 5.1 signals. Openal has its own hrtf signal. Those 2 would most likely interfere which is why it becomes disabled. 

That thread you posted is funny. People don't even seem to know what alchemy actually is or what eax is. Eax has nothing to do with positional sound. That's openal or ds3d api's job. Eax was an environmental and occlusion filter for sound in games that would give it a realistic behaviour. 

And alchemy is made to get back direct sound support in windows vista+ by transcoding ds3d to an openal stream realtime. This in turn brings back the hrtf signal and eax.


 I haven't tried any source games except tf2 with my zxr and that doesn't use openal or ds3d at all. I'm assuming hl2 does and I kind of want to try it.


----------



## Fegefeuer

All source games do. For HL2/Episodes for instance you'll need to make sure the game audio starts in legacy mode by changing the config or creating an autoexec.cfg that includes: [size=small]snd_legacy_surround 1[/size]
   
  Remember to setup Alchemy accordingly, the default values do not work properly, iirc correctly it is buffers=5 and duration=10


----------



## SoFGR

x-fi cmss3d headphone worked along with  hardware openAL just fine ( UT2k4 - UT3 - stalker - serious sam 3  - BF2142  etc) ALchemy games like RO1 - Killing Floor (  native openAL caused BSODs  )  and Painkiller  seemed to work fine as well 
   
  They only time that i had trouble with  ALchemy + cmss3d was in l4d2, it just sounded "off", especially the in-game  "5.1" setting, oddly enough "headphones"  was better, but still muffled compared to "5.1" + snd_legacy_surround "0"


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Doesn't cmss3d work a little different to sbx though? If I remember correctly it actually takes the coordinates from openal or direct sound and does its own calculations? But it can also use pre baked 5.1 to virtualized surround. Whereas sbx can't use coordinates.

@fegefeuer




Nice tip! I actually wasn't aware of that for hl2.

For alchemy I go to the alchemy database and use the values they have there for specific games plus the registry paths. Most of the time though it auto detects the game and adds its own setting. I was under the impression that if a game isn't added in the list then it won't work with alchemy.

Do you use those values all the time for every game?


----------



## Fegefeuer

Don't rely on Alchemy detections. Sometimes my alchemy doesn't detect my games so I add the games manually with the right values (there's a list online). If you check the dsound-logfile next to the dsound.dll into the folder you can extract the info about the success of Alchemy/OpenAL.
   
  You can actually just copy dsound.ini + dsound.dll into the folder where the game's exe resides, and just edit those 2 values inside dsound.ini if needed. No need to use Alchemy at all, it just needs to be installed of course.


----------



## SoFGR

Quote: 





fegefeuer said:


> Don't rely on Alchemy detections. Sometimes my alchemy doesn't detect my games so I add the games manually with the right values (there's a list online). If you check the dsound-logfile next to the dsound.dll into the folder you can extract the info about the success of Alchemy/OpenAL.
> 
> You can actually just copy dsound.ini + dsound.dll into the folder where the game's exe resides, and just edit those 2 values inside dsound.ini if needed. No need to use Alchemy at all, it just needs to be installed of course.


 
  can you use ALchemy along with 5.1 settings +  SBX surround 67% ?  What does it sound like in source ?


----------



## Fegefeuer

Quote: 





sofgr said:


> can you use ALchemy along with 5.1 settings +  SBX surround 67% ?  What does it sound like in source ?


 
   
  SBX is not active during OpenAL/DS3D (automatically) and doesn't need to be either as the legacy path gives direct positional info of the 3D space. The good old times.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

I found this description of cmss3d headphone mode if any of you are interested.

"*CMSS-3D Headphone: When the Creative Control Panel is set to Headphones, this setting creates virtual 3D positional audio via synthesized binaural cues (see Sound localization and Head-related transfer function). If the application generating the audio uses a hardware-accelerated 3D audio API (i.e. DirectSound3D or OpenAL), the input for the binaural synthesis algorithms consists of up to 128 sound sources positioned arbitrarily in 3D space, this is the most accurate utilisation of CMSS-3D. If the application instead generates multi-channel sound directly (e.g. a media player app or a game with software-based audio processing), the input for the binaural synthesis algorithms consist of the 4 to 7 positional sound sources associated with the application's selected speaker configuration. Such applications may use the Speakers settings defined by Windows in which case it is possible to set the Windows Speakers configuration to a multichannel set-up, e.g 5.1, so that the application will output multi channel audio."*


This I found the most relevant to our discussions on 5.1 or 2.0 in windows control panel.

*
"CMSS-3D Surround: When the Creative Control Panel is set to 4/4.1, 5.1, 6.1, or 7.1 speakers, this setting will upmix stereo sources to multiple channels. Note that both CMSS-3DSurround and CMSS-3DVirtual can be enabled when using 4/4.1 speakers. As above hardware-accelerated 3D audio will be translated to the number of channels specified."*

So back then enabling 5.1 in windows still would not upmix stereo sound UNLESS cmss3d surround mode was enabled. Seems logical that the same happens now with the z and sbx. Difference is sbx just puts 2 channels in a virtual space.


----------



## dcx4610

I'll be getting my ZXR today which I'll be pairing with Sennheiser 650s. I had seen that someone said there is an optional volume setting to use to get the most out of the headphone amp. Can anyone shed some light?

 I've heard Windows set to 25% while your player set to 100%.


----------



## Anarion

fegefeuer said:


> @Anarion: What I meant is not SBX emu but the 5.1 setting in windows. There are people that say that OpenAL ignores the windows setting because it doesn't need the speaker settings and those that say that OpenAL still needs the 5.1 speaker setting so that the game sends as much info as it can. I am in the latter camp. It makes a difference.


It probably does ignore it but if you do not use generic software but the creative's implementation, the game does not actually do the mixing. You see, the openal implementation middleware/hardware knows exactly where the sound comes from (under, above, behind...) and then mixes it to stereo and applies HRTF effects, elevation filter etc. Here's one example again (youtube ruins the audio a bit): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0qL7BX_XcU&hd=1 SBX is disable. I made sure that it used creative's openal implementation instead of generic software. Stereo and 2.0 speakers selected from windows, line out. You can clearly hear things that are above, below, front or behind you. This is the X-Fi Forte setting with comparable settings: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GH5DsUJpY8&hd=1 If it wouldn't ignore 5.1 windows setting, it would seriously mess up the sound.



djinferno806 said:


> Whereas sbx can't use coordinates.


No card can if the game doesn't support hardware/vendor OpenAL or if the game is not old direct sound game with alchemy.



dcx4610 said:


> I'll be getting my ZXR today which I'll be pairing with Sennheiser 650s. I had seen that someone said there is an optional volume setting to use to get the most out of the headphone amp. Can anyone shed some light?
> 
> 
> I've heard Windows set to 25% while your player set to 100%.



There's high gain option. I'd test first with normal gain and keep the volume down to 10% and then start upping it. At least that way you do not blow your ears.


----------



## zoulas

Hello, I am new to the group. This is a real nice thread. Question for you guys. I bought two SB ZX card for two different systems. One drives Logitech Z5500 5.1 speakers and the other Corsair SP2500 2.1 speakers. I don't use headphones and my primary interest is music. My Z5500 system sound out of this world. Its real loud, the dynamic range is perfect. On the SP2500 system the sound is lacking in some way that I cannot pin point.I went through all the Creative settings and I have improved it some but still there seems to be a lack of bass. When I put my hand to the port on the 2500's I feel the air pumping out but there still seems to be a lack of substantial bass that these speakers should be able to produce. Are there any other settings I should be looking at ? I read that the SP2500 need some sound card tweaking to get them perfect. Any feedback would be appreciated.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

That's strange as the corsairs are definitely higher quality and capable of way more dynamic range.

I know the corsairs have an audio control box where you can change the sound signature or something. Have u tried tweaking that first?
Also in windows sound panel do you have full range checked or no?


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





fegefeuer said:


> It was just a question regarding his config. For me both are the same as well.
> 
> Anyway, there's a *new Alchemy release (dsound.dll especially)* out that is a year newer than the current one.
> 
> http://fichiers.touslesdrivers.com/38499/Creative_alchemy_1.44.00.zip


 
   
  Oh, didn't notice that particular point to your post...asking what setup he's using vs. directing what setup to use seems to be a nuance that's not always easy for me to detect in a forum conversation.
   
  Thanks for the heads-up on this ALchemy release; I'll give it a shot soon! Not that I expect dramatic differences, but maybe it'll get a few of the games that were problematic before to work better.
   
  Also, you're gaming with the HD800? I'm gonna have to audition that thing one of these days...everybody who's heard it always mentions the soundstage. Always.
   
  Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *Anarion* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> It probably does ignore it but if you do not use generic software but the creative's implementation, the game does not actually do the mixing. You see, the openal implementation middleware/hardware knows exactly where the sound comes from (under, above, behind...) and then mixes it to stereo and applies HRTF effects, elevation filter etc.
> 
> Here's one example again (youtube ruins the audio a bit): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0qL7BX_XcU&hd=1 SBX is disabled. I made sure that it used creative's openal implementation instead of generic software. Stereo and 2.0 speakers selected from windows, line out. You can clearly hear things that are above, below, front or behind you.
> ...


 
   
  What in the...did Creative just get their act together with the default OpenAL mix on Sound Core3D hardware or something?
   
  Going between the two, it's like the positioning is still there, but there's a distinct veil on one of them...and it's not the Zx.
   
  We're gonna have to take this further and test out more games. Got Unreal Tournament or one of the earlier Battlefield games?


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Lol thats what I've been saying for a while now. OpenAl running on the z/zxr is pretty decent. A lot of x-fi elitists are talking crap but in fact I haven't had any huge issues so far.

I will say though that in STALKER I had pops and clicks until I took the openal file in the windows folder and replaced that into the stalker folder. I'm assuming since it was a newer file in the windows folder it solved the issues.

Perhaps the difference in the two videos comes from cmss3d affecting the eq like it always has. My x-fi always made my games "tinnier" or less bassy when I used cmss3D.

I would recomend using the z/zxr and playing penumbra/doom3 with eax enabled. Pretty badass.


----------



## registradus

djinferno806 said:


> Just alone in the software suite and the SBX studio is a huge upgrade over ANY asus product.  Broken drivers which need community unified support is ridiculous.  The increased sound quality is also a huge difference.
> 
> I sold my STX and got a Z just due to the stability of the driver and SBX features.
> 
> But its up to you if you have the money.




Thanks, I was just reading a few reviews that said the SoundBlaster drivers/software was also pretty bad


----------



## Anarion

namelesspfg said:


> Oh, didn't notice that particular point to your post...asking what setup he's using vs. directing what setup to use seems to be a nuance that's not always easy for me to detect in a forum conversation.
> 
> Thanks for the heads-up on this ALchemy release; I'll give it a shot soon! Not that I expect dramatic differences, but maybe it'll get a few of the games that were problematic before to work better.
> 
> ...



I'm uploading Command & Conquer: Renegade Aureal3D sample (using Alchemy, again everything at stereo without SBX). It's a shame what happened to Aureal... Their stuff was superior to EAX back then.

EDIT:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pocrsgHm2nM&hd=1
Listen second time with eyes closed.


----------



## genclaymore

Quote: 





djinferno806 said:


> Lol thats what I've been saying for a while now. OpenAl running on the z/zxr is pretty decent. A lot of x-fi elitists are talking crap but in fact I haven't had any huge issues so far.
> 
> I will say though that in STALKER I had pops and clicks until I took the openal file in the windows folder and replaced that into the stalker folder. I'm assuming since it was a newer file in the windows folder it solved the issues.
> 
> ...


 

 When I had a recon3D it was doing good in openal as well, but i think The lot of X-Fi elitists are just doing that, because they see there beloved X-FI chip no longer used as well hardware accelerated audio, They also can take the changes in gaming audio and where it is going. I don't like Xaudio2 being used but there nothing i can do about it. So I accepted and moved on. The sad thing is when they keep acting like its either X-Fi or go home, time has changed, it no longer a must for gaming even with EAX+openAL games.  I have used both a X-FI Xtreme gamer and the Recon3D at the same time in EAX+openal based games, they sound exactly the sound re-guardless of the recon3d being software host openAL and X-fi hardware openAL  A few games that had working openAL in the code I switched from Xaudio2 to openAL in the game engine.ini as well setting the channels to 128 that didn't give me any issues either with the recon3d.  In fact I never had any issues with gaming on a Recon3d.  I think some of those guys are stuck in the past and so used to using the X-FI for gaming and can't let go of it, when it no longer the only card with the needed/wanted gaming features. I have owned other X-Fi based cards in the past but mainly for there op-amp rolling usage when I was into that.
   
  For me CMSS3D headphone worked depending on the headphones I was using it with, Where one pair of headphones it worked good and another pair of headphones it did badl but mainly it added bass which i didn't like which cause bass to static at times..  I liked Tru Studio pro it did ok with my A900X's when it was config very well, The only time I liked Dolby Headphone Mode 1 is back when i had a pair of AKG 702 and a STX which worked very good with. Currently I use The Razer Surround software which I liked very well, because I can use it with my external dac amp thru usb.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

@registradus
   
  I cant speak for others but I have found the Z/ZXR drivers vastly more superior stable compared to ASUS'.  Never had any problems to date.  
   
  @Anarion
   
  Oh the good old Aureal3D!  It still makes me mad how Creative treated them and their technology.  Creative were the Apple of the 90's suing for just about anything.  The video does show off some impressive positioning for sure.  Its too bad creative didnt keep A3D and just canibalized its features into EAX 5.0.
   
   
   
  Heres a question I was thinking of.
   
  So with the X-fi cards, in order for HRTF to work, youd have to enable CMSS3d right?  Thats as far as I could remember.
   
  Now with the Z/ZXR you dont have to enable anything, in fact SBX surround even switches off, so whats mixing the HRTF signal and sending it to the card?  Is creative's software openAL doing it for us with the Z/ZXR?


----------



## watsaname

Those of you who got TF2 to work with ALchemy, can you post a your setting for it? I tried setting it up by looking at a tutorial from 4 years ago which involved using a registry path, a sub install into the tf2 directory, and then changing buffer to 5 and duration to 10. I put the "[size=small]nd_legacy_surround 1" in the launch options area for TF2 in steam.[/size]
   
  Upon starting up the game I don't get any sort of sound. No music, no voices, no anything.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

I can't get alchemy to work with hl2 either. Don't know what's wrong. It says in the dsoundlog that it started but I only get stereo sound and no voices unless I'm pointed at the subject.


----------



## Anarion

djinferno806 said:


> @registradus
> 
> I cant speak for others but I have found the Z/ZXR drivers vastly more superior stable compared to ASUS'.  Never had any problems to date.
> 
> ...


Yeah, BUT when you enabled CMSS-3D in stereo mode, it worked only in OpenAL & Alchemy games so it didn't touch 2.0 sources at all so it's actually almost the same thing as Z/Zx/ZxR in stereo mode. If you did not select headphones.





The annoying thing now is the lack of MacroFX and ElevationFilter settings. That means some games like TES: Oblivion sounds bugged (weapon hit sounds), Mass Effect 1 sounds bugged too. They are now always forced to be on and as far as I know there's no way to change that.


----------



## Fegefeuer

Medieval Total War 2 is affected too and that game is a showcase of awesome EAX and surround. I asked the Creative Support to offer the ability to integrate a toggle for the macrofx and elevation. No reply yet.


----------



## dcx4610

One annoyance on the ZXR I'm running into is the Creative AutoUpdate software. It keeps detecting a software update for the card but when you download and install it, it acts like the update has already been installed. If you try repair or reinstall, the next time you go back in to AutoUpdate, it's still there.
   
  Other than that, I'm really digging the card. It was a pretty big upgrade from the X-Fi and I love the new software interface.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Correct me if Im wrong but the MacroFx and Elevationfilter settings were part of EAX but only controllable through CMSS3D right?  They are not customizable with just EAX alone as far as I can remember.
   
  It has been a long time so maybe this wasnt the case.  Its the only thing that makes sense though.


----------



## Anarion

djinferno806 said:


> Correct me if Im wrong but the MacroFx and Elevationfilter settings were part of EAX but only controllable through CMSS3D right?  They are not customizable with just EAX alone as far as I can remember.
> 
> It has been a long time so maybe this wasnt the case.  Its the only thing that makes sense though.


AFAIK that's the case.


----------



## Fegefeuer

Yes, only via the CMSS-3D subpanel. They would have to revise the SBX panel for this, but I don't think they will. Our old games just aren't important anymore and new(er) games are very well handled by SBX.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Ya it blows they dont care about older games anymore.  To be honest im thankful for the support we have now so i hate to complain.


----------



## Anarion

I wish they would, I fancy some older games and would appreciate better sound.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Now imagine openal /ds3d quality sound with crysis 3 visuals in modern games. I'd pay a buttload for that. But oh well!


----------



## Anarion

Aye... It's so weird. Game audio has been taking steps back.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Ya... Quite sad. To this day I could never figure out why Microsoft removed hardware sound layer from windows mixer in vista... What did they accomplish except piss off gamers? 

Its back now in windows 8 or should I say partially anyway. But good luck with that. Creative won't jump on hardware accelerated audio because devs have relied on fmod or xaudio for stupid console games.


----------



## Fegefeuer

It's both a matter of Creative's ancient proprietary arrogance in not offering their tech to MS for a new API and MS taking matters in their own hands for easiest portability. 
And it's consoles where sound hasn't gone backwards, albeit only with exclusive titles like Killzone 2/3 for instance. 
   
No PC developer is forced to use FMOD or WWise. OpenAL is free,


----------



## DJINFERNO806

But there's no incentive to use it. Plus I'm sure it isn't just straight forward. There's still programming for that specific api. And I'm sure licensing agreements or contractual obligations with fmod or xaudio don't help.

I'm sure the big publishers put pressure to use those instead. 

Can't think of any other reasons they don't use openal.

Consoles haven't gone backward because they have stayed the same since 10 years ago. There really isn't anywhere they can go. Closed systems can't support much more than standard audio. PC has the option but devs and tech companies won't.


----------



## Fegefeuer

SPU-based hardware audio in the PS3 is actually going further than any PC tech released until today. Sure it's a matter of dev interest and focus but "closed" isn't a strong argument here when there's power to utilize.
   
  I was talking about PC only titles. Any other big title is mostly multiplatform and the Middleware license covers all supported platforms. Any OpenAL adventure would be a glorious extra. However not even a "glorious" dev like Valve actually bothers.
   
There isn't any strong base for hardware audio on the PC anyway. Many X-Fis got replaced by Xonars or died out, people often rely on onboard audio of their fully packed motherboards and many gamers often even just use USB-Headsets with Dolby Headphone. 
   
  If we want hardware audio back we'd need a hardware base first. There's no information about the Core3D's hardware capabilities. And then we'd need a new API....who's going to provide it? OpenAL kinda failed...so Microsoft? Shouldn't they have announced it by then? I mean the Xbone One has a powerful dedicated audio chip for a good reason. Not only Kinect but also because devs got annoyed with certain X360 titles using a full core for audio.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Do you have any info on the ps3s hardware audio? I'm kind of curious what it is because I was under the impression consoles just down mixed from fmod to lpcm or encoded to Dolby/DTS and called it a day. In which case if thats what they need an spu for then fair enough.

Well with Xbox one and ps4 hardware audio chips plus windows 8 hardware layer... Maybe something is on its way in the form of an api. Microsoft taking sweet time maybe.


----------



## Fegefeuer

Yes, you are right, that's mostly the case. Only a few games got the real audio treat. Even if we have all the bling it's up to the designer to do it right.
   
  There was a slide of Guerilla Games that covers it, especially wave tracing, but I could only found a later more superficial one. :[ Hardware Audio on the PS3 is basically using its SPUs, there's no dedicated hardware audio chip like the EMU20k2 but those SPUs are quite powerful (and more flexible) but sadly hard to program for. 
   
  Killzone Shadow Fall is using the whole RAM of an XBOX 360 just for audio and it will sound glorious again.
   
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-inside-killzone-shadow-fall
   
   
  On another note: Did you (and others) notice how many games today make use of prebaked audio? Latest Splinter Cell for instance has ambience sounds that never change the direction.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Way too many games do that nowadays its sad. Lazy devs in my opinion who cater to console gamers and most still just use TV speakers. Hopefully that changes.


----------



## Fegefeuer

Well, in over 17 years of my experience the same thing applies to PC. Hercules or Logitech Desktop speakers mostly and high end SLI gamers playing with razer headsets. Remember that not every game that had DS3D was also good sounding. Most standouts were games were Creative actively sent devs to the studios with sample cards. They haven't done that since the Bioshock 1 days. :[
   
  The enormous headphone craze should arrive at the minds of the devs sooner or later. Sony's PULSE is playing with tactile feedback for instance. Something has to happen. 
   
  I am wondering if DATASAT actually built a middleware. Tyll, obviously not being quite the gamer, had an audition over there with a movie and a shooter game. Of course there's more the wish than any actual facts that were provided but with binaural information stored in upcoming DTS-HD tracks they somehow must have thought about the same for games and go there with tech that is beyond virtualization as well. 
   
  Man I'm desperate.


----------



## Radical_53

Changes? Kids that grow up listening to mp3 with earbuds, or even their cell's speakers, and watching Youtube videos all day long? It can only change to the worse with such a starting point.

 It's like going back to the old C64 or Amiga days and start all over again.


----------



## Anarion

fegefeuer said:


> Well, in over 17 years of my experience the same thing applies to PC. Hercules or Logitech Desktop speakers mostly and *high end SLI gamers* playing with razer headsets. Remember that not every game that had DS3D was also good sounding.



Well, even though I have 2x GTX 680 in SLI, I have quite decent sound gear too.  I've always had decent audio card ever since Sound Blaster Live! Value (before that I just had to be happy for what I had). I did neglect speaker/headphone department before for money reasons but that has not been the case in years.

OpenAL is dead. Can anyone find documentation for it?

Xbone audio processor:

Not sure if it can do any audio effect processing or if it's only for decoding/encoding.


----------



## genclaymore

Maybe MS will release a new xaudio spec and done a better job this time around.


----------



## Anarion

genclaymore said:


> Maybe MS will release a new xaudio spec and done a better job this time around.


I sure hope so. I mean, it shouldn't be impossible to make it hardware accelerateable and more importantly make it so that cards don't have to work with already mixed output.


----------



## NamelessPFG

I'm not so much worried about the hardware-vs.-software processing aspect of things. Hell, one of my crazier thoughts in years past was to leverage modern GPGPU designs for sound calculations, like wavetracing and all that which took a big CPU hit back during Aureal's prime with A3D 2.0.
   
  On that note, I have a feeling we'd be a LOT better off today had Aureal survived. I remember an article just before bankruptcy that was about them talking about how A3D 3.0 was becoming less of a proprietary API for Vortex chipset cards and more of a general-purpose audio middleware for games in much the same way FMOD and Wwise are now.
   
  My real concern is that they're still treating us headphone users as second-class and thinking that a 5.1/7.1 speaker system is the best way to mix audio positionally when we all know that it could be far better than that, having experienced 3D audio over headphones done right. If they're smart, they'll take note of the increase in popularity of gaming headsets and particular audiophile cans used for gaming like the AD700, and make their headphone mixes something more than a one-dimensional left/right pan.
   
  And on that note, I have the feeling that older PC games that used A3D, DirectSound3D, OpenAL, etc. weren't developed with headphone users in mind; the audio APIs they used just happened to enable proper headphone surround sound by circumstance, if the sound card were to support it. Besides, back in the late 1990s, Aureal was the only one really trying with binaural sound in gaming, shortly followed by Sensaura and their Virtual Ear; Creative took the surround speaker approach back then and didn't even bother with headphone surround until the introduction of the X-Fi series and CMSS-3D Headphone around 2004 or 2005.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

I couldn't care less about the hardware accelerated aspect nowadays. Modern CPUs can do so much via software and not even sweat. This isn't the p4 /athlon days anymore. I feel only x-fi elitists are the ones still on this and so condemn any other sound cards or any os other than xp. Time to move on.


But your right too much emphasis is put on premixed signals. Apparently everyone has a home theatre. Much better immersion with headphones.


----------



## SEALBoy

So... just wondering since I don't have the time to read 63 pages...
  
 What's the general opinion on the Sound Blaster Z? Better than the Titanium HD? It sure is cheaper.


----------



## Anarion

sealboy said:


> So... just wondering since I don't have the time to read 63 pages...
> 
> What's the general opinion on the Sound Blaster Z? Better than the Titanium HD? It sure is cheaper.


Define better. In what way better?


----------



## SEALBoy

anarion said:


> Define better. In what way better?


 
 In terms of sound quality, and its handling of surround sound in games. How well does the virtual surround sound of the Z work with headphones?


----------



## Anarion

sealboy said:


> In terms of sound quality, and its handling of surround sound in games. How well does the virtual surround sound of the Z work with headphones?


In terms of DAC quality, Titanium HD has better DAC and ADC (Z/Zx have headphone amp option though). Some like SBX better, some prefer CMSS. I prefer SBX over CMSS. ZxR has better hardware than Titanium HD and it would be the most logical choice from Titanium HD.


----------



## Monir

Recently purchased this card to slim down on equipment, amp, DAC etc. And boy was that a bad move. I haven't been this disappointed since I bought Xonar Phoebus.
  
 The features and DAC section is totally fine, which is one of the reasons I bought the card. But the amplifier is just on par with my $20 Xonar DGX. I have to use MAX volume to get the same effect I got when using Xonar Essence STX @ 40% volume. And the volume controller is rendered useless as well. The mic is ten times worse than my clip-on mic from a very old Siberia headphone, and on lowest volume you can still hear sound - ie you can not mute the sound entirely, only reduce it to a certain extent. I guess this soundcard has very low output power, lower than a portable FiiO. Or maybe it's only designed for high impedance headphones (that is, only 600ohm), my 300ohm Sennheisers had higher volume than my 40ohm Fidelio X1 and IE-80, but still unable to mute the sound via the external volume controller.
  
 I really hope this is a defect of sorts, but I really doubt it. I'll try and return this product tomorrow if they allow it. If I can't get the money back and just get it replaced, in which case the new one works - which I really doubt - I'll edit this post. But as for now, I'm really disappointed with Sound Blaster.


----------



## Radical_53

Which card did you get? The mic is very bad, yes. I tried it out once, for Teamspeak, but got convinced that I should put it back into the box right away


----------



## Monir

radical_53 said:


> Which card did you get? The mic is very bad, yes. I tried it out once, for Teamspeak, but got convinced that I should put it back into the box right away


 
  
 ZxR


----------



## Radical_53

Oh ok. It shouldn't have issues driving headphones, neither high nor low impedance. I'm running a fairly high volume setting with my cans too, on the low impedance setting of the card, but apparently many other people actually had issues that the card had too much volume (running their cans at 4-6% or so).
 Did you try the line out also?


----------



## Skipshrike

I recall the ZXR's control panel having an option to switch between low or high impedance headphones. I know my Z doesn't have that. Maybe that will help?


----------



## Monir

skipshrike said:


> I recall the ZXR's control panel having an option to switch between low or high impedance headphones. I know my Z doesn't have that. Maybe that will help?


 
  
 Thats one of the first things I tried, the difference in volume is marginal and still doesnt remedy the issue with not being able to mute all sound at minimum volume via the external controller


----------



## Radical_53

I didn't use the ACM for long but I can't recall such an issue. Does the card "click" when you turn on your PC?


----------



## Anarion

Something is clearly wrong there. Are you sure that nothing is messing the volume level? Like this:


This can cause issues unless you do not select the do nothing option.

Just by the way, I have to use 3% windows volume when using line out (and when using ACM at 100%, which reduces the volume a bit even at 100%).

It could be faulty card too. In terms of hardware it annihilates DG in every possible way.


----------



## Monir

I've had 'Do nothing' option on since forever since it messes with Skype calls and so forth. So yeah, hopefully faulty card, but I honestly still doubt it. A soundcard that doesn't use external power via a molex (like Phoebus and STX) is liable to have insufficient output power for headphones.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Ya this isn't a video card. It doesn't require external power other than the pcie lanes can provide... I believe up to 75 watts for a full height card. 

I highly doubt it uses even more than 25w. You need to remember you are sending power in the milliwatts(1/1000 of a watt) to headphone drivers. Not even 1 watt. So the amp shouldn't require that much power plus whatever the card itself needs to power the DAC,opamps and the spu plus its circuits. Even if we factor the impedence it still shouldn't equal more than a few watts I'm sure just for the amp.

I think the whole extra molex to the Asus cards was to fortify the whole "cleanest power possible " theme they were going for. But not needed with modern motherboards or power supplies. I also think originally the essence stx was a PCI card(st) and maybe power draw from those connectors was limited perhaps? Meh who knows. That famous Russian site measured the stx and zxr power output and the zxr just barely measured higher if I remember correctly.

Lol any who point being I think you card is just faulty. Especially if gain settings dont make a difference. Like one of the other members suggested do you hear the relay click when ur PC boots into windows? A bad driver install could impede the amp from engaging or something along those lines.

My DT 770 250 ohm is definitely not easy to drive yet on the 32-300 ohm gain setting I have to have it on 25-30 % volume or it'll blow my ears lol.

A member on the overckock.net forums had the same problem as you with the zxr. So not the first time. Before you return it try to clean yours drivers up or an os install. You never know.


----------



## Anarion

^^Yep, also trying it on another computer would be good thing. If that's not possible, I'd try different slots.



monir said:


> I've had 'Do nothing' option on since forever since it messes with Skype calls and so forth. So yeah, hopefully faulty card, but I honestly still doubt it. A soundcard that doesn't use external power via a molex (like Phoebus and STX) is liable to have insufficient output power for headphones.


PCI-E x1 can give 25 W (at least if I read it right). That should be enough. These are PCI-E native stuff, Xonars are really power inefficient with their PLX chips and all.


----------



## Radical_53

Absolutely, a card doesn't need an additonal molex. It can draw plenty of power from the slot. If you've measured the power draw of a regular amp before you'll know the juice provided by the slot is more than enough.


----------



## Monir

djinferno806 said:


> Ya this isn't a video card. It doesn't require external power other than the pcie lanes can provide... I believe up to 75 watts for a full height card.
> 
> I highly doubt it uses even more than 25w. You need to remember you are sending power in the milliwatts(1/1000 of a watt) to headphone drivers. Not even 1 watt. So the amp shouldn't require that much power plus whatever the card itself needs to power the DAC,opamps and the spu plus its circuits. Even if we factor the impedence it still shouldn't equal more than a few watts I'm sure just for the amp.
> 
> ...


 
  
 If that's the case I'll try a roll back in driver first and see if I notice any difference.
  
 Last time I checked I didn't hear any clicking noise during start-up.


----------



## Radical_53

It should be a pretty distinctive click, like a relay clicking. If that's not the cause the amp section of the card may be defective. It should also click when you switch between speakers and headphones.


----------



## Monir

radical_53 said:


> It should be a pretty distinctive click, like a relay clicking. If that's not the cause the amp section of the card may be defective. It should also click when you switch between speakers and headphones.


 
  
 It doesn't click on start-up. It does click when I switch between speaker and headphones
  
 Rollbacking drivers did not working, going to return it tomorrow for a new one


----------



## Monir

Reinstalled latest drivers and got a clicking sound on start-up now (or maybe I didnt hear it properly before). Still issues with volume though.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

I noticed the relay won't click at windows startup untill the driver was fully installed properly and windows restarded... At least for me.

*Edit: never mind I saw it didn't help you.

Perhaps a hardware issue after all*


----------



## Monir

But does any of you experience sound when external volume controller is on minimum volume (given that the soundcards/computer level is at 100%).


----------



## Anarion

monir said:


> But does any of you experience sound when external volume controller is on minimum volume (given that the soundcards/computer level is at 100%).


That external volume controller has nothing to do with the card, it's just cable extension. It's just meant to fine tune the volume and no, you can't mute the source with it. When set to 100% it will sound quieter than without it, when set to 0% it will not mute the source so you will still hear something through it. Why does that even matter?


----------



## Monir

I'm not expecting it to mute the _source_, some ext volume controllers I've used before had no sound leakage when dial is turned to minimum. It's kind of annoying when you don't want to hear anything at all; makes it more convenient to use an external DAC/Amp.


----------



## Radical_53

It's weird though that you still get sound from it, at 0%, but it not being loud enough at 100% at the same time. Were you still wearing youe headphones when you turned them to 0% or how does this fit together?


----------



## Anarion

^^Yep, weird. If one can hear it at 0%, it should be blasting at 100%.


monir said:


> I'm not expecting it to mute the _source_, some ext volume controllers I've used before had no sound leakage when dial is turned to minimum. It's kind of annoying when you don't want to hear anything at all; makes it more convenient to use an external DAC/Amp.


Most keyboard have mute/unmute button so at least for me it's not a big deal (or you can map it to any combo you want... http://www.technixupdate.com/desktop-shortcut-keyboard-hotkey-to-mute-sound/). You can always unplug it from the ACM too. In my case though it is basically muted when I turn it down because I can only use up to 10% in Windows if I want nice range (still means that I can't go above ~66% in ACM though).


----------



## Evshrug

Holy crap!
My old Recon3D USB paired with my Q701, I had to run the USB unit almost at max for adequate volume. With my new Recon3D USB and new K712, I had to turn down PC volume to 20% when the headphone was plugged in directly (no double-amping). I barely used the old Recon3D and Q701 without an amp on PC before, mostly on Xbox 360, but USB is USB, it should have sounded just as loud before, right?!


----------



## DJINFERNO806

The k712 use a completely new driver though. I guess its easier to power than the q701 was.


----------



## Skipshrike

It's a much better pairing to SBX than the X1, and the X1 sounded great. In L4D2 I'm staring at walls because I hear things behind them perfectly.


----------



## Evshrug

Lol I had the same experience Skipshrike.
DJINFERNO, maybe the sensitivity is higher? I believe the Ohms have stayed the same 62, though now it behaves more like I'd expect a 62 ohm headphone to be like. Was listening straight out from my iPod Video (2005) last night, only needed like 45-47% volume setting.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Lol ya I was implying the sensitivity too. Not just the ohms. This headphone line is notorious for being picky with equipment. I know they went ahead and tuned the new drivers to be 3db more sensitive or something I believe. Perhaps that's it.


----------



## Skipshrike

It does not sound as great through the Astro Mixamp. The positioning is alright (DDL), but it just felt so sterile and analytical. I heard everything, but it didn't wow me with musical quality. Unlike on PC where getting absolutely murdered in BF3 (haven't played in some weeks) never sounded so good!
  
 The Sound Blaster Z lives up to a review I read: The Z is more than enough for gaming and is great for music as a secondary function.


----------



## SoFGR

skipshrike said:


> It's a much better pairing to SBX than the X1, and the X1 sounded great. In L4D2 I'm staring at walls because I hear things behind them perfectly.


 
  
 SBX surround ?  plz try ALchemy and post back  
http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2620152


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Agreed^ 

Ds3d and openal games should always be played with the original api's 3d sound instead of premixed surround.

At which point sbx surround should disable itself anyways.

 how I miss the old days...

*Update:*

Skipshrike, take a look at my sound blaster z surround guide I posted on over clock.net a while back. Should help u setup certain things properly a little better. Sorry didn't mention it in the pm.

http://www.overclock.net/t/1337761/creative-sound-blaster-z-zx-zxr-series/570#post_20621001

Also forget the part about the disabling "give applications exclusive mode..." Option. Its a requirement for some programs to run in wasapi exclusive.


----------



## Skipshrike

Hmm, I'll see what I can figure out with it.


----------



## Evshrug

djinferno806 said:


> Lol ya I was implying the sensitivity too. Not just the ohms. This headphone line is notorious for being picky with equipment. I know they went ahead and tuned the new drivers to be 3db more sensitive or something I believe. Perhaps that's it.



I'll compare specs, and I won't even have to use the internets: still got both boxes. Oh, and you heard right, but extra details are that it was the bass boosted by +3 dB.


----------



## SoFGR

Here's an even cheaper way to try out SBX surround, coming to stores in October   
  
http://en.europe.creative.com/p/sound-blaster/sound-blaster-audigy-fx


----------



## Evshrug

evshrug said:


> I'll compare specs, and I won't even have to use the internets: still got both boxes. Oh, and you heard right, but extra details are that it was the bass boosted by +3 dB.



Just fyi, I checked my AKG boxes, the K712 and Q701 have the same impedance and sensitivity ratings. So... I dunno. Gonna have to try some Xbox with the Recon3D and the headphones plugged straight in.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Do you usually use it straight recon3d with no amp?

How they perform?


----------



## balancebox

how does this card compare with xonar stx?


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Which one?

Zxr has pretty much same components. Difference being the dsps used. Sound quality would be the same but I'm not sure if the sound signature is the same as they might have used different op amps.

Z is slightly lower components however they are by no means bad. Still really good DAC and an ok headamp for the price.

Same software features.


You might also consider the virtual surround used. Dolby Headphones vs SBX surround.


----------



## hohosharen

i think so,they posted the first review also on Sony 1R and Sony XB600 & XB800 headphones.thanks


----------



## raul219

I'm thinking of getting the Sound Blaster Z but I have read some people saying that low impedance headphones are just too loud, even at very low volume settings in windows. I am about to get a Sony MA900, which has a very low impedance (12 ohm). Is this a good soundcard/headphone combo? Also, I would like to know if there's any difference on suing the sound card's headphone jack or my case's front panel jack using the HD Audio connection.


----------



## SaLX

Here's mention of the ZxR though it's got a superior headphone amplifier (forgive me if you've seen this):
  
http://www.head-fi.org/t/663121/sony-mdr-ma900-appreciation-thread
  
http://www.head-fi.org/t/663121/sony-mdr-ma900-appreciation-thread/120#post_9734362


----------



## raul219

I did saw it. but no problem ....my doubt is more in the fact that you cannot change the gain in the Z like you can in the ZxR. Actually I think I'm going to get the Fidelio X1s instead of the Sony, so even though the still have a low impedance (30 ohm), it's not the 12 ohm of the ma900s. It could still be a problem but maybe not as bad as before.


----------



## Anarion

Its sensitivity is 104 dB/mW so you probably* will not have issues with the volume.

*since I have no idea how it will actually sound but that's quite a bit less than HD 595.


----------



## keane1024

I used to own the old creative sound card, and I kinda look forward to this


----------



## watsaname

If any of you guys are playing Battlefield 4, what are you current setting for SBX surround? I am using Home Cinema Mode and Surround. Is that the "correct" settings to use? I remember that in Battlefield 3 you would use Home Cinema and turn off the advanced stereo mode or w/e it was.


----------



## Steven Seagal

Hey guys,
 I can't decide between Titanium HD and Sound Blaster Z (CMSS 3D vs SBX).
 Currently I'm using Xonar DGX with Dolby Headphone and I don't want it anymore after I've listened to SBX and CMSS 3D.
 I don't care about old games support, so what's better supported by new games and Win 8 x64?
 Does the Sound Blaster Z stlll provide me with SBX, when I hook up an Objective O2 amp?
 The Titanium HD will provide via line out, though. However the Sound Blaster doesn't have any line out, just front speakers out?
 What's the difference between THX Pro and SBX?
 There are different opinions about this topic, whether it's just a rebrand or not.
 Can I use all the Creative surround also for movies like Dolby Headphone?
 I don't care about hooking up some speakers or something, I need the card just as a DAC and surround sound provider.
  
 I will be using the soundcard for 50% gaming (BF 3/4, some RTS games), 40% music (Foobar with ASIO) and 10% movies.
  
 Thanks for reading ^^


----------



## DJINFERNO806

I can't speak for the tiHD I'm windows 8 or newer games. But the z works flawlessly. At least it did for me.

The L/R speaker out is a line out as far as I know. Just because they are included in the same jack the naming is different(correct me if I'm wrong). This will send SBX surround to your amp fine. The sbx surround might sound different using headphones out of this port as they are meant for speakers. Users report different surround staging/imaging through this one. The headphone out would be your best bet but its inferior to the sq in the line outs. Myself and many users can confirm this(I have my suspicions of the headamp bottlenecking the sq after the DAC). The tiHD would beat it there. But it is more pricey generally unless you find a good deal or used.

SBX surround is not a rebrand of thx, there is a difference and sbx is superior and most people will agree with this.
However I cannot speak for the other features.

 You can use sbx surround or cmss3d for movies without issues.

Listen to demos for both and see which one you prefer better though. Its subjective.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BxO9cd-sYA


----------



## Fegefeuer

Titanium HD has the usual line out (all features of the headphone section work over line out, like CMSS-3D) which can be used for any active speaker, amp or whatever, in your case the O2 amp. It will work in Windows 8 as well. I had no problems. 
  
 SBX is NOT THX rebranded. Apart proven from a lot users you can't just rebrand licensed stuff and get away with it. There's also a reason why Creative calls it OEM on their webseite and THX is still listing it. 
  
 What you lose with SBX is perfect legacy, what you gain is much better signal quality, in general through all virtualized channels, especially noticable with voices and music. You can for instance enjoy the soundtrack of a game much better. 
  
 Try to see SBX like a hybrid of CMSS-3D (imaging, depth, soundstage) with THX (tonality, sq), excep that CMSS-3D can be more accurate due to it's different EQ (which you can replicate with your SBX though) and superior in older games, though not by much anymore.
  
 Today's games however won't ever go the old route again and it's pointless to have any hope in that regard. Let's see what "True Audio" by AMD brings to the table as it's supported by actual games.


----------



## benbenkr

I actually feel that SBX Surround is more akin to the marriage between CMSS-3D and Dolby Headphones.
  
 At 60% SBX, there's the directionality of CMSS-3D but also some of DH's reverb on DH-1 mode, along with the wider soundstage.
  
 Also, I must stress that different virtual surround tech sounds different on different headphones. What may work nice on a closed pair of headphones may actually sound weird/bad  on an open headphone alternative, same goes the other way around.


----------



## Skipshrike

I've been running my Z with 91% SBX for Dead Space 3 and BF4.
  
 Creative did a very good job with this series. The control panel is easy to use and, AND it updated without any problems or driver shenanigans. Sound cards may have been using user profiles for a while, but this is a new feature for me. The ability to save tweaks for swapping between gaming and music has saved me so much time.
  
 While playing co-op DS3, the horror!, I had to guard my friend while he fumbled around with a puzzle. There were four points where necromorphs could spawn from and I could easily tell which of the four they were coming from by sound. 
  
 BF4... I've been using HiFI with the surround option (SBX counts as a surround setup, right?) and you feel very immersed. Oddly, I don't feel that audio cues help me as much as using the minimap/brain. However, you can easily pick out the direction where everyone is shooting from.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Try using home cinema instead of HiFi. HiFi lacks the same amount of dynamic range and low frequency effects as home cinema. From my understanding its meant for computer speakers setup not full 5.1 using a receiver. 

Also I don't remember ( haven't played bf in a while) but isn't HiFi also meant for 2.1 setups?


----------



## Skipshrike

That would make more sense given the windows sound settings being 5.1. I remember when settings were described accurately in manuals. Haha, I feel old.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Ya I remember those days... I don't understand what devs can't just describe settings properly. 

I use home cinema with sbx surround, its the best combo in my opinion.


----------



## Skipshrike

Do you use BF4's surround option as well?
  
 I had forgotten there was a headphone option, but given that the Z funnels everything from a 5.1 to headphones there probably isn't a point to it for us.


----------



## SaLX

Anecdotal comparisons between the STX and ZxR are _very few and far between on the internet_, especially from posters who have owned (or own) both. I would like to hear a broader, more detailed and definitive analysis (from a lot more people) that they are indeed both in the same league. Yet I never read about people praising the god-like music qualities of the ZxR compared to reviews of the ST(X) (and they are legion for the Xonar). There isn't even a review of the ZxR on Head-FI Head Gear reviews section; nor any Op-Amp switching guide: Why is this?
  
 They both have the same components almost, but the design and engineering of how they all interplay surely must play a big role. I would like to hear more: somebody to say for sure that although the ZxR is of course better for gaming (definitely FPS's) - does it hold a candle to the STX for music?
  
 I ask this because SBZ Surround is increasingly looking like the goto for gaming, with Dolby Headphone trailing a fair bit.
  
 *Edit: if anybody can post up some good links please it'd be appreciated too*


----------



## DJINFERNO806

I think one of the reasons is the ST/STX has been around a lot longer, and it was never advertised as a gaming oriented card.  It was always promoted as a music lovers card.  But given they have almost the exact type of components I dont see why there would be a huge difference.  Where the slight differences may come from is perhaps the signature of the sound itself, do the ZXR and STX use different OP AMPS in their sockets?  That would make more sense.  I cant see there being too many ways to interconnect the circuits on a PCI-E card to the point that it would differ in sound quality.  I know the ZXR is a native PCI-E card whereas the STX has to use a PLX chip to bridge its circuits and sound processor as they were initially made for PCI.  But surely this would be only on the digital side of the card and have no bearing on the analogue components half?  That's my understanding anyway.
  
 I also think the amount of people that own the ST/STX are probably greater than those that own the ZXR.  The ZXR is a little more expensive and depending on whether you need the ACM or not, its a terrible value.  The ACM alone shows that creative is trying appeal to the masses by including it instead of letting users use the headphone out directly which everyone knows an extension will always have some degree of sq loss(whether it be small or not).  The ST/STX also included the audio tests document to show that everything was being don't to give you the best sound.
  
 But going from the STX to the ZXR, I can say I didn't notice any difference in sound quality.  However I was never able to compare them side by side by swapping in and out.  Perhaps someone else can speak on that.
  


skipshrike said:


> Do you use BF4's surround option as well?
> 
> I had forgotten there was a headphone option, but given that the Z funnels everything from a 5.1 to headphones there probably isn't a point to it for us.


 
  
 I haven't played BF4 yet, don't think I will until its released, not usually into BETAs.  Whats this surround option for?


----------



## SaLX

> But going from the STX to the ZXR, I can say I didn't notice any difference in sound quality


 
  
 That's _exactly_ what I want to hear.. a definitive and anecdotal comparison. Any others out there want to add to that?
  
 DJ (you're a damned good poster thanks) - however you didn't completely answer my question:_ the ZxR is better at gaming, we know that - but for music reproduction, played in stereo with zero dsp/enhancements, is it *as good *as the STX? _
  
 The world is watching  !!  Many thanks for your reply DJ. I think a lot of people want to know this so please forgive.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

With the all the SBX enhacements and EQ off and using WASAPI exclusive mode in FUBAR2000, I didn't notice any degrade in sound quality for music or change in sound stage.   I even changed the windows sound settings  from 2.0 to 5.1 and back to make sure there was no upmixing to 5.1 via stereo surround or anything like that(a bug the STX had with the default drivers).
  
 Sorry I should have been more specific, that's how I usually do my sq testing/comparisons.


----------



## SaLX

Many thanks DJI. **Edit** hate to say it mate, but you being so good at writing stuff  - maybe you should stick up a review about the ZxR on the Head Gear frontpage reviews 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Having read all your comments, sure it would be a summation of everything you and others have written. One thing though - In all the mainstream freebie laden reviews, not one of them has criticised/mentioned the ACM's performance and the fact that plugging in your phones messes with the SQ. Only reading the forums do we know what it's like. For some it's golden and with no issues; for others, it's a "stick back in the box item".
  
 Also mainstream reviewers are reticent about comparing Asus v Creative? When did this happen? AMD v Nvidia benchmarks are all over the place. Is this a follow the money thing? (Sorry I'm Scottish - money has to do right).


----------



## DJINFERNO806

It sad to say but I feel that most mainstream review sites don't known good audio if it bit them in the arse. Not much analytical review of the sound quality itself in comparison to other top end sound cards. That's always helpful.

I just don't think many review sites find sound card review and comparisons important anymore. Unfortunate.

I was thinking of writing a review of the zxr but to be honest I'm still a noob in audiophile territory and I don't think id do the site justice since I don't have those "golden ears" lol. I could certainly review the hell out of everything else on the card. I also don't have an endless supply of headphones either to do multiple tests.


----------



## ShrikeT

How do these new cards work with Alchemy/older DirectSound games? Can you use Alchemy + SBX Surround to get >7 channel positional audio with older DirectSound games like with CMSS-3D?


----------



## DJINFERNO806

I'm assuming you mean directsound3d. 

Ds3d gives spatial audio coordinates that are then turned into 3d audio 2 channel mix. When using alchemy to transcode this into an openal stream, SBX surround is turned off. 

But you will still get 3D surround as it was intended.


----------



## ShrikeT

Yeah, DirectSound3D. So wait, what you're saying is that even with my current X-fi card, it's unnecessary to turn on CMSS-3D to get headphone (binaural) surround sound when using Alchemy with a DirectSound3D game?


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Ya see this is something I've actually been wondering. I know with my x-fi I always used cmss3d for directsound3d and openal games. 

But with my zxr obviously I don't have cmss3d but still get 3d sound. It's actually obvious its working when I play STALKER and Jedi Outcast and Chaos Theory. 

 The only thing I can think of is the z series grabs the coordinates and turns them into 7.1 signals at which point sbx is automatically turned on and so the slider turns off so as not to mess with the mix and sound stage. 

Perplexing right?

Funny lol this question has never come up this whole time...


----------



## ShrikeT

Haha yeah, it's definitely typical of Creative products though. Thanks a lot for the info. At the very least it sounds I won't lose much going from am X-Fi to Z series card, which was my main concern.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

OK so an update. I scoured some info on cmss3d headphone and found some interesting points.

So if you have a 5.1 setup, cmss3d does not create a binaural hrtf signal from dsd3d or openal sources. Instead ds3d or openal will just send 7.1 signal(derived from the 3d coordinates) to the card provided it is a supported piece of hardware(creative branded).

This is different from cmss3d using those coordinates and building a 3d binaural signal directly into 2 channels. 

So I guess our z cards just use those surround speaker streams and downmix to hrtf. But doesn't allow you to use sbx to adjust the slider. Downside is no height cues apparently.

Cmss3d, no downmixing necessary, 3d cues right to stereo signal.

Makes sense to me .

Even still, this method blasts traditional premixed 5.1 out of the water. Play penumbra with the z series and wow it sounds so good, panning is so smooth in transition and scarily accurate.


----------



## Skipshrike

djinferno806 said:


> Even still, this method blasts traditional premixed 5.1 out of the water. Play penumbra with the z series and wow it sounds so good, panning is so smooth in transition and scarily accurate.


 
  
 Have you tweaked your settings any from what you normally run for that?


----------



## SaLX

djinferno806 said:


> It sad to say but I feel that most mainstream review sites don't known good audio if it bit them in the arse. Not much analytical review of the sound quality itself in comparison to other top end sound cards. That's always helpful.
> 
> I just don't think many review sites find sound card review and comparisons important anymore. Unfortunate.
> 
> I was thinking of writing a review of the ZxR but to be honest I'm still a noob in audiophile territory and I don't think id do the site justice since I don't have those "golden ears" lol. I could certainly review the hell out of everything else on the card. I also don't have an endless supply of headphones either to do multiple tests.


 
 Er.. I think you could easily do it DJI. Yes, you are qualified to speak. Without you knowing it, you have written more qualified answers with regard to the ZxR than anybody else that I've ever read, anywhere.
  
 Sorry, but I think it's important: The new SBZ cards offer probably/arguably the best surround sound out there (for games), somewhat eclipsing Dolby Headphone on the STX. Creative's flagship model the ZxR (practically as good as the Asus Xonar Essence STX) is in need of validation from the gaming community (and music lovers as well). Pity it's got an addon card (most of us don't need) and a ACM thing (50/50 it won't work).


----------



## Evshrug

djinferno806 said:


> Do you usually use it straight recon3d with no amp?
> 
> How they perform?




Dang, sorry, just saw this. You may have to click on your quote to see the context.

I usually plugged my Q701 into my tube amp, but since I got the K712 I've not been enjoying the installed tube much (microphonics cause a ringing sound which might never completely fade much just past perceptible, plus it doesn't enhance the soundstage, both attributes which were addressed with the previous tube I had in which made me love my amp in the first place), so I've probably gotten about 50/50 time unamped and with the tube amp.

There is WAAAAAY more volume (and gain?) available when plugged into the PC than the Xbox, which I don't really understand. I have to turn windows down to 20%, but with the Xbox I'm just a few steps down from the max setting. Regardless, the K712 performs well either way, with good spacial cues, detail, separation, and comfortable volume (and wearing comfort!). The AKGs still scale with good amping, but the K712 doesn't sound as harsh as the Q701 when not bi-amped so it's easier to live with, and it seems less picky about amping in general. Unfortunately for some, I really enjoyed the AKG K712 + FiiO E12 amp combo.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

skipshrike said:


> Have you tweaked your settings any from what you normally run for that?


 
 No apart from SBX surround, i dont use any other form of enhancements or settings. 
  
 So SBX surround gets turned off and the rest is stock.  Windows at 5.1 ofcourse lol.
  


salx said:


> Er.. I think you could easily do it DJI. Yes, you are qualified to speak. Without you knowing it, you have written more qualified answers with regard to the ZxR than anybody else that I've ever read, anywhere.
> 
> Perhaps draught some thing up and run it by to stv014 or Purple or nameless or benbenkr etc to see what they think if you're not too sure?
> 
> Sorry, but I think it's important: The new SBZ cards offer probably/arguably the best surround sound out there (for games), somewhat eclipsing Dolby Headphone on the STX. Creative's flagship model the ZxR (practically as good as the Asus Xonar Essence STX) is in need of validation from the gaming community. Pity it's got an addon card (most of us don't need) and a ACM thing (50/50 won't work).


 
  
 I just have to play around more with the daughter board first and maybe I will begin to write something up. 
  


evshrug said:


> Dang, sorry, just saw this. You may have to click on your quote to see the context.
> 
> I usually plugged my Q701 into my tube amp, but since I got the K712 I've not been enjoying the installed tube much (microphonics cause a ringing sound which might never completely fade much just past perceptible, plus it doesn't enhance the soundstage, both attributes which were addressed with the previous tube I had in which made me love my amp in the first place), so I've probably gotten about 50/50 time unamped and with the tube amp.
> 
> There is WAAAAAY more volume (and gain?) available when plugged into the PC than the Xbox, which I don't really understand. I have to turn windows down to 20%, but with the Xbox I'm just a few steps down from the max setting. Regardless, the K712 performs well either way, with good spacial cues, detail, separation, and comfortable volume (and wearing comfort!). The AKGs still scale with good amping, but the K712 doesn't sound as harsh as the Q701 when not bi-amped so it's easier to live with, and it seems less picky about amping in general. Unfortunately for some, I really enjoyed the AKG K712 + FiiO E12 amp combo.


 
  
 So it seems pretty useable without double amping eh?  At least for your cans.  Hows the clarity in the sound, is the noise floor as bad as some say?(on its own)


----------



## Anarion

djinferno806 said:


> OK so an update. I scoured some info on cmss3d headphone and found some interesting points.
> 
> So if you have a 5.1 setup, cmss3d does not create a binaural hrtf signal from dsd3d or openal sources. Instead ds3d or openal will just send 7.1 signal(derived from the 3d coordinates) to the card provided it is a supported piece of hardware(creative branded).
> 
> ...



I'm almost certain that the OpenAL implementation and the binaural processing is exactly the same as with previous software Creative only cards. This time without any restrictions (i.e. EAX5 and 128 voices). It's a bit misleading that Creative called that CMSS-3D and the 5.1/7.1 to 2.0 conversion CMSS-3D too when they aren't really the same thing.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Well there are 3 types of cmss3d. Headphone is the hrtf one. The other 2 are virtual and surround I believe.

But one thing I don't get is why would you need cmss3d for openal then if its mixing it in hrtf on its own. Doesn't make sense to me. That why I went looking and found the above info from the creative forums. That's the only explanation I can think of.


----------



## jerry216216

my emu 1616m broken, will this be a good replacement ?


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Depends what you want a soundcard for?


----------



## Anarion

djinferno806 said:


> Well there are 3 types of cmss3d. Headphone is the hrtf one. The other 2 are virtual and surround I believe.
> 
> But one thing I don't get is why would you need cmss3d for openal then if its mixing it in hrtf on its own. Doesn't make sense to me. That why I went looking and found the above info from the creative forums. That's the only explanation I can think of.



If I remember correctly, without CMSS-3D you lacked MacroFX and Elevation Filter and probably HRTF too. That being said I always used stereo mode not headphone mode because I like 2.0 mode more. It probably is a bit different situation if one is using headphone or 2.0 stereo mode.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Well then it stands to be asked, what's creating hrtf on the z series when using openal games. One of the modes of cmss3d created 5.1 channels from 3d coordinates instead of hrtf. We might be getting that, then down mixed back to hrtf via sbx.


----------



## SaLX

If the STX and ZxR are 'similar' in design, why does the STX have three replaceable OP-AMPs and the ZxR four? The STX uses all dual's whereas according to the link below, the ZxR uses a mix of duals and singles.
  
http://support.creative.com/kb/ShowArticle.aspx?sid=112623
  
 From the The Xonar Essence STX Q/A, tweaking, impressions thread:
  


> *Q: What's the deal with interchangeable opamps?*
> A: The card has 3 swappable 8-pin dual opamps. The two matched I/V opamps impact the headphone out alone, while the 3rd "buffer" opamp impacts the RCA out. If you are only using the headphone out you only have to worry about the 2 I/V opamps. They can be removed and replaced using your fingers, a small flathead screwdriver, needle nose pliers, etc.


 
  
 Wish there was a thread similar to this for the Soundblaster ZxR. Would just using the examples for the STX suffice?


----------



## watsaname

Hows it going everyone?
  
 I am thinking about buying a pair of Sennheiser HD600/650s and I was thinking that my soundblaster Z might not actually be able to power them well. So I have come to the conclusion that I might need to ditch the soundblaster, wish I wouldn't HAVE to. I was thinking about whether or not if I hooked up a Fiio D03K or a D07 I would be able to keep the soundblaster z in the loop for SBX surround?
  
 I first contacted Creative, but they were just trying to convince me that the amp on the card will be able to pretty much drive any headphone up to 600 ohms, which you guys have pretty much proven to be fluff.


----------



## Evshrug

djinferno806 said:


> So it seems pretty useable without double amping eh?  At least for your cans.  Hows the clarity in the sound, is the noise floor as bad as some say?(on its own)



Well, the two headphones I'm mainly using now, the Q701 and K712, have fairly lower sensitivity and manage to dampen background noise to something more like an impression than something you actually hear, but I've also used it with ATH-AD700, MDR MA900, and V-MODA M-100, and background noise wasn't apparent. Mixamps (especially the new ones) and the Tritton decoder box have audible background hiss. The Recon3D USB is a bit shy on current for the AKGs to provide optimal separation and prevent distortion which takes the form of occasionally fatiguing glare (seems like this is less of an issue with the K712), but it works in a pinch/case of laziness, and does a fine job when you double-amp the headphone out.

To anyone "afraid" to connect an amp to the headphone out of a Creative product... don't knock it till you've tried it.

I like and use the Recon3D USB because it works with my Xbox, Windows, and Mac. Creative was hinting that they were working on a replacement device to fulfill these needs, but I'm disappointed that there hasn't been anything else to serve these sources.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

salx said:


> If the STX and ZxR are 'similar' in design, why does the STX have three replaceable OP-AMPs and the ZxR four? The STX uses all dual's whereas according to the link below, the ZxR uses a mix of duals and singles.
> 
> http://support.creative.com/kb/ShowArticle.aspx?sid=112623
> 
> ...




Well I know using singles is considered better due to less crosstalk and/or being able to use separate power supplies to each. But I know that modern duals are manufactured really well now(separate from each other) so that its hard to even hear a difference anymore. This is from my understanding anyway.

But I'm confused about a few things.

Why do you need 2 dual I/v opamps for headphones? Clearly these wouldn't be in series because both channel's currents would already be converted to voltage after the first op amp no?

And why wouldn't the rca need an I/V op amp?

If somebody could clear this up I'd much appreciate it.


----------



## Fegefeuer

Does anyone in here have the time to upload the ISO of the SB Z(xr) installation CD? I can't finde mine somehow.


----------



## Bloodflowerz

Hello All
  
 I currently have the Xonar STX and was thinking of going the Creative route for gaming.
  
 Now, I'm going to be buying a separate DAC so all I really need the Creative for is the surround sound processing.
  
 I'm not convinced with the STX drivers and the've not been updated for couple of years.
  
 Are the creative drivers that much better and would it be worth my time going to Creative Z series for gaming sound? I guess I could buy the cheapest Z card since all I need is the audio processing?


----------



## DJINFERNO806

So I assume you just want to output optical to your DAC/amp?

Go with the z then the cheapest since you won't need any of the analogue high end components from the zxr.

IMHO z drivers and surround are way better than xonar lineup. Look around the web, almost all are pleased with sbx surround. I've yet to read anything negative on that end.


----------



## Bloodflowerz

djinferno806 said:


> So I assume you just want to output optical to your DAC/amp?
> 
> Go with the z then the cheapest since you won't need any of the analogue high end components from the zxr.
> 
> IMHO z drivers and surround are way better than xonar lineup. Look around the web, almost all are pleased with sbx surround. I've yet to read anything negative on that end.


 

 Thanks for the reply.
  
 Yes, I want to connect the Xbox to this card, and then connect my PC and xbox (via the Creative Z) to my external DAC.
  
 Can the optical output 5.1 sound including all the Creative effects? I cannot find any mention of this in the manual.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

well according to users here and over on other forums, it can output SBX effects over optical out.
  
 5.1 output wont be an issue as the card can encode using dolby live or dts connect.  But I will mention some users are having audio delay issues when doing this.  I haven't tried my daughter board yet so I cant really say.


----------



## watsaname

So some people have reported SBX effects work over optical out? That is good I hope that I wouldn't have to get rid of the soundblaster from my loop. Do you by chance know/remember any of the dacs that they said does work with it? I was looking at the D03k because it is the pretty much the cheapest spdif dac you can try without breaking the bank.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

If it does indeed output sbx effects through optical then any DAC will work. Its just 2 channel audio going to it, nothing special.

But if your sending encoded Dolby 5.1 then it probably won't work since most DACs cant decode Dolby. But you only need Dolby if you want to send 5.1, not needed for headphones.

@Bloodflowerz, sorry I should have mentioned that you would need to send 2 channel sound to your DAC unless it supports Dolby decoding.


----------



## watsaname

Hmm, that is good then. Creative support was trying to tell me that because optical out only carries pcm signals that you couldn't use the SBX surround effects, which didn't make too much sense since I thought the sbx effects would technically be pcm as it was converting 5.1 to 2.0 basically. I guess I will try and do some more research on the whole thing then.
  
 If someone is looking for a spdif DACthat supports Dolby and DTS, the Fiio D07 supports all that.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

^ that's awesome.. I didn't know the fiio line supported Dolby. Good to know.

Regardless of whether it can only carry pcm(Dolby and DTS also) I don't what that has to do with sbx. Lol. As far as I know, after the sbz is done processing everything and mixing it together, doesn't it go to the DAC as pcm anyway?

Correct me if I'm wrong. Although I don't trust creative customer reps who barely know the inner workings of a sandwich let alone a sound card lol.

Also just so you guys know if you are outputting optical with the sole reason of using headphones then you don't need to encode anything, optical supports full stereo pcm.


----------



## watsaname

Yeah that is what I was thinking too, that what is sent to the internal dac was pcm signal as well. It makes a lot of sense.
  
 Yeah, those customer reps aren't the greatest. It seems like they just took a gander at the box and told me what they read off of it. It is like,  "I didn't ask you to read me the box, I am asking you to use your "internal" knowledge of the products to see if you can give me a some sort of reasonable answer."
  
 Yeah I was really going to use it for my headphones, but I was looking at the Asgard 2 which has the line out for power monitors or stereo amplifiers.


----------



## Evshrug

bloodflowerz said:


> Thanks for the reply.
> 
> Yes, I want to connect the Xbox to this card, and then connect my PC and xbox (via the Creative Z) to my external DAC.
> 
> Can the optical output 5.1 sound including all the Creative effects? I cannot find any mention of this in the manual.




I think you may have gotten confused with what creative was telling you. The card can output SBX mixed stereo, the problem is (because of licensing) the sound card cannot decode Dolby Digital Live 5.1 surround from your Xbox, only 2 channel PCM. That's why I have the Recon3D USB... the only device I know of that can process computer surround (through USB) *or* console surround (optical DDL5.1).

The Recon3D USB does *not* have an optical output, but I've had good results connecting an amp to the headphone out port.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

I was reading my ZXR Manual for some info on this and I came across this that will answer this once and for all.
  

  
  
 So you can send PCM with all the sbx goodies to a DAC from optical out.
  
 BUT now my question is, what type of SBX surround HRTF algorithm will it use?  What I mean by this is, HRTF for headphones and speakers has to be calculated differently.(Speakers have to have cross talk cancellation and need to make up for the fact that sound reaches your ears regardless of what speaker, etc etc)  Up until now I have noticed a difference in how this is done and I figured the Z would switch what type it uses based on whether you select STEREO or HEADPHONES in the z panel.
  
 But what does it use for this?   Some testing is needed and I want to break out my optical to my av receiver but im so lazy lol.


----------



## SaLX

I've looking into this option as well:
  
 SBZ (OEM) > SPDIF (2ch virtualised 3D) > external DAC/AMP (Maverick Audio TubeMagic DAC or an Audio-GD 15.32 etc - any that accept SPDIF in) > Stereo headphones.
  
 One thing though - and I'd appreciate some help - in the new SBZ control panel when outputting via SPDIF, can you select 'Headphones' as opposed to Speakers in the Creative CP? I know that you've got to select Stereo Mix as well.
  


Spoiler: Creative Control Panel



  
  


 
 If you can only use Speakers (in stereo - pretending they are headphones), then this is brick wall. Although the X-Fi's could output stereo CMSS-3D Headphone and work well via SPDIF, I worry that new SBZ Studio would mess up the HRTF for gaming* if you are forced to use the speaker option.
  
 *This is when using the lineouts to an external amp, not using headphone out. (and sorry Ethan if you're reading this! - just want to get it right)
  
 @EDIT* DJI - you beat me to it  Also - the image you posted when it says "select speaker in playback device".. doesn't that refer to the default device in windows sound control panel, where many would make the mistake of selecting the SPDIF out, not "Speakers"?


----------



## Evshrug

I wonder why Bloodflowerz and watsaname are looking for really complicated extra DAC setups, when really it sounds like what they're trying to improve is the amping section? Just connect an appropriate power amp to the line-outs or (le gasp!) the headphone out.

The Z has a better DAC than the FiiO D03k... And I've only read specifically that the E07k can *NOT* process DDL or DTS signals, else Mad Lust Envy or NamelessPFG would be ALL over that.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

^ lol true story. Lol I didn't think about the why, just gave them advice based on what they wanted.

Ya the DAC on the z is amazing for what you pay. 

Anywho, I did some more testing with sbx surround using rca to my headphones...

Gaming was terrible, direction is borked. If an object is to the left it plays out of both sides albeit one is louder but not by much. Same goes for vice versa. Also rear sounds play beside your head and center just plays out of both sides equally and loud. I'm not gonna lie it gave me a headache and I wanted to throw up, I swear, not exagerating.

Using 5.1/7.1 test files also confirmed this.

I guess my theory was correct. Sbx surround has different modes based on what is used for output. Similar to cmss3d modes except you can't change these ones. What a shame for people who external amps that game.

This is for those of you using line outs for headphones, you may want to think twice if you game with sbx surround.


----------



## Evshrug

^ well...
Then I'd go back to recommending hooking up a "power" amp to the headphone jack then, just considering the soundcard to be a DAC+PreAmp.

Sorry to hear about your nausea


----------



## DJINFERNO806

^ lol yup I guess thats the only option.

Thanks, my heads still piercing lol


@ salX,

I'm not sure about that option I never use digital out. I assume windows? When I had my z, that option was always available and I had speakers set in windows as default.


----------



## benbenkr

evshrug said:


> I wonder why Bloodflowerz and watsaname are looking for really complicated extra DAC setups, when really it sounds like what they're trying to improve is the amping section? Just connect an appropriate power amp to the line-outs or (le gasp!) the headphone out.
> 
> The Z has a better DAC than the FiiO D03k... And I've only read specifically that the E07k can *NOT* process DDL or DTS signals, else Mad Lust Envy or NamelessPFG would be ALL over that.


 
  
 No, it isn't the E07k Evshrug.
 It's the D07 - http://fiio.com.cn/products/index.aspx?ID=100000039443512
  
 The D07 *does decode* DTS and DD.


----------



## Bloodflowerz

djinferno806 said:


> ^ lol true story. Lol I didn't think about the why, just gave them advice based on what they wanted.
> 
> Ya the DAC on the z is amazing for what you pay.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hey all
  
 Thanks very much for all the hard work, investigating and contribution to this thread! Many thanks from me!
  
 The idea was, I want a separate (external) DAC and AMP for my Music. However, as I am a gamer, I also want to Downmix 5.1 sound into stereo surround from both my Xbox and PC. So, for this reason, wanted to throw the SB Z into the mix to process these effects as and when I require it, and disabling it for my music reproduction.
  
 There are other options, such as the Beyer Headzone (too damn expensive), Xonar with Dolby Headphone (crappy drivers and surround effects), and the Mix Amp, which does not have optical out.
  
 So, the solution is to amplify the headphone amp section of the SB-Z to get the right effects?


----------



## Evshrug

Benbenkr,
That's pretty interesting. I don't have *need* for it, but I'll look into it because it could be nice for others. I wonder what/how it decodes surround into stereo... there's no mention on their page of a DSP, or virtual surround. Hopefully it doesn't just use front R/L channels, or mash all back, front, and side channels down into just sounding like side channels.




bloodflowerz said:


> Hey all
> 
> Thanks very much for all the hard work, investigating and contribution to this thread! Many thanks from me!
> 
> So, the solution is to amplify the headphone amp section of the SB-Z to get the right effects?




Yes. You may even find the SB-Z's DAC to satisfy you.


----------



## watsaname

Yeah the thing about using the line out of the z is that it completely borks the sound stage when doing pretty much anything. I tried all the different options under the speakers section and it kept giving me screwed up sound stage. It sounded everything is coming from in front of me, sort of like speakers. rather than giving the proper surround feeling. 
  
 I want to avoid the headphone out as much as possible, because I think it doesn't sound that great. I don't know if it is the built in amp, dac, or maybe just the screwed up impedance(using ad700s currently), but the sound stage is very claustrophobic to me. It sort of has this feeling of iems where everything sounds like it is inside your head rather than coming from outside your head. Depending on the what I am listening to voices are unbearable, it sounds like with they are drilling into your head with every word they speak. This phenomenon is most noticeable to me in Adele's album - 19 and listening to any of Totalbiscuit's videos on youtube.
  
 Yeah I realize that the d07 probably isn't the best and was looking at the audio gd 15.32.


----------



## Evshrug

I used to run AD700! <3

What you're hearing is more likely due to impedance mismatch... Fact check me, but I think the SB-Z has a 22 Ohm output impedance, while the AD700 only has 32 ohms impedance. You'll have a better experience with low output impedance and higher current. 

Even something like a FiiO E5, which has like 0.5 output impedance, ought to help some of that glaring sound and spread apart different voices. The helicopter guns in CoD4 really bother me without a low output-impedance amp. You don't really need the extra wattage of a FiiO E11, but the sub-bass boost may also help the AD700 sound fuller, it's reviewed as doing a very good job supporting soundstage depth, and you'll have a bit more power on tap in case you later on buy more power-hungry cans. Any amp more expensive would be overkill, and you probably wouldn't be able to tell a difference with your AD700.

I forget which amp you were considering, but E11 + AD700 will probably net you the most spacious soundstage you will hear from headphones... If you like soundstage, your upgrade path will probably look something like AD700 (which I had for 3 years), Sony MA900, AKG Q701 or K712 + a tube amp, and then... well this is where I'm at now, feelin very happy, but next would probably be a Sennheiser HD800 or AKG K812, if I could ever justify their cost.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Ya I have also read a lot of users complaining about the Z's headphone out sounding too small of a sound stage and things seem to mashed together.  But personally I have never had that issues. 
  
 I never thought of it at the time but I guess my old PC350's(150 ohm) or my current DT770/250 ohm would be the reason.  I wasn't experiencing impedance mismatch i guess.  Lol ya I know I have a thing for high impedance cans.  But to be fair, I couldnt justify having the ZXR and not taking advantage of its decent power output and the 250 ohm have a much smoother and flatter response.  I like bass a lot but when I listened to the 80 ohm, it was ridiculous.  If I could describe it, it sounded like when I tried the Razer Tiamat 2.2(albeit a lot clearer) a long time ago.  They literally have 2 extra drivers just for low frequencies.  Everything just gets swepped away under the low frequencies.  What a headache.  The 250 ohm was so nice and it still gives deep bass when needed.  During some scenes from Act of Valor, the drivers would vibrate my head, but never compromise the mids or highs. Anywho, end rant lol.
  
 Oh and another thing, you guys are right about the headphone out not being as good as the line outs.  I mentioned it before but it seems the maxim headphone amp seems to "bottleneck" the sq.  It is rated at significantly lower SNR than the DAC.  I know SNR doesnt always mean much but in this case you have to admit its pretty obvious when you hear the two.  If its not the SNR then its something else, but logic dictates that the only difference in the audio path being the headamp, it must be the reason.


----------



## Evshrug

SNR (or as I like to write it, as a former math and science geek, S:R) is more about hearing background noise, at least for consumers/listening. There is a point where you don't actually hear background hiss anymore, but you still get a sense that the background isn't entirely "black." And past that point, it simply doesn't make a difference.

I'm no audio engineer. I would guess that higher S:R is more important when you have really sensitive equipment... but S:R is not directly related to driving a headphone with adequate voltage and current. It's also not related to output impedance, which is where I think watsinaname is having his issue. The ZxR headphone out is like 10 ohms, and the Z like 22? I don't remember exactly, but Wat needs simply to address the ohms. Recommended rule of thumb (there are exceptions) is an output impedance 1/8th of the headphone's impedance will sound best.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Ya i cant explain the difference in the line outs or headphone out.  Its not noisy by any means, like the mixamp <2012(havent tried the 2013 version) or DSS.
  
 But its almost like the headphone out is muddier and not as clear?  My noob explanations are no match for head fi I know lol.


----------



## Evshrug

Hey, at least you're trying. Even if you can't explain why (all unknown things are "magic," till we work to understand them and they become science. For example, people used to think frogs were spawned by rain, but I think metamorphosis is way cooler), some people will give greater credence to your observations because you haven't been prebiased to look for something. So, there's that.


----------



## SaLX

Basically (theory crafting):
  
 1. Any headphone below 50-70 Ohms using the headphone out on the SBZ will run into problems (though not necessarily on the ZxR). The AD700 (the gamers cheap top headphone for positional audio) is 32 Ohms. Not good. _Thing is I've read posts where people have been happy with the SBZ/AD700 ???? _
  
 2. Using the RCA's/ Line out to an external amp in Speaker Mode with a very low output impedance headphone amp would alleviate the problem (for stereo anyway and this'd be perfect). Caveat being: it destroys any _virtualised 3D audio for gaming and maybe movies if you want to use SBZ Pro using stereo headphones _because you _have_ to select Stereo Speakers and mimic headphones badly. This is also my question for SPDIF out.. can you select either Speaker and Headphone output or just Speakers to avoid this crap?
  
 3. All that's left is double bloody amping the headphone out. Lob a very low gain amp on it (I've read that people have done it on the SBZ with no distortion, ie the Magni or 1x gain 02. Even a dirt cheap FiiO E5 could do it maybe??). That means you get an amp with 1 Ohm or less impedance so low impedance cans will work without distortion. Caveat is - _it may distort the SQ because of double bloody amping._
  
 Groan................ Anyway.. the SBZ plus an $100-140 amp means I might as well get a ZxR, or a SBZ OEM> Spdif > DAC/AMP (see the end of question 2). The ZxR/STX both seem to power low impedance cans well anyway, especially the Fidelio X1 which I want, even though there's a slight hiss with nothing playing at high volumes. Just worried about the above poster who's getting **** audio through a supposedly decent (and presumably common) setup.


----------



## Evshrug

^
Consistent with what I've learned. To your point #1, there are exceptions... Sony's MA900 has an impedance compensator built-in. And yeah, a dirt cheap FiiO E5 is a fine pairing with AD700s; the amp doesn't provide a lot of volume for high-ohm headphones (I guess you could plug those straight into the Z card though), but it is clean and without the EQ boost on doesn't add much distortion.

And to your point 3 caveat... Define distortion, and how much a negative effect it creates? Typical hifi speaker systems with separates have a dedicated preamp and power amp, you're effectively doing the same here with the headphones. And from personal experience, it doesn't magnify flaws of the first amp component, and sometimes I LIKE to change/distort the original signal... that's basically what my tube amp does, and it's my honest favorite way to listen with all the headphones I've tried it with.


----------



## SaLX

Evshrug.. the only way I can 'define distortion' is solely from what I've read here I'm afraid. Double amping is seen as an ultra no-no - I asked what the difference was between double amping and pre-amping (thought it the same tbh as long as it was balanced), but I guess I didn't quite understand the answers. But as I said, some people have been absolutely fine double amping, and I appreciate that none of you here would ever want to guarantee X works with Y.
  
 Have a FiiO E5.. whatever card I get (SBZ or ZXR) with the X1, I'll check it out and see how it runs out of both the Line/RCA outs and the headphone out too.. just to see. If it works I will get something better as I will have some cash to burn soon. I'd like to get an O2 amp anyway.


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

watsaname said:


> Yeah the thing about using the line out of the z is that it completely borks the sound stage when doing pretty much anything. I tried all the different options under the speakers section and it kept giving me screwed up sound stage. It sounded everything is coming from in front of me, sort of like speakers. rather than giving the proper surround feeling.
> 
> I want to avoid the headphone out as much as possible, because I think it doesn't sound that great. I don't know if it is the built in amp, dac, or maybe just the screwed up impedance(using ad700s currently), but the sound stage is very claustrophobic to me. It sort of has this feeling of iems where everything sounds like it is inside your head rather than coming from outside your head. Depending on the what I am listening to voices are unbearable, it sounds like with they are drilling into your head with every word they speak. This phenomenon is most noticeable to me in Adele's album - 19 and listening to any of Totalbiscuit's videos on youtube.
> 
> Yeah I realize that the d07 probably isn't the best and was looking at the audio gd 15.32.


 

 Well you're not alone but I have a ZxR instead (sitting in the drawer though) and I also get a borked / claustrophobic soundstage with headphone out jack when I'm looking for a more surround ("around me" experience). I don't think it's the hardware but the software, more specifically Creative's HRTF tweaks for "Headphone" speaker mode (if selected through Creative driver panel). Using RCA / lineout plugs and stereo for example to me brought a bit better soundstage but I didn't like the sound out of that as I've only got a ZO amp which isn't very good on relying to do the amping job, so it sounded a bit too "murky".
  
 It saddens me to say that I get better soundstage with onboard Realtek ALC1150 (what I'm using). :/ Creative should really bring back the possibility to use any speaker config out of any port or maybe simply do "hi-fi" mode with any HRTF tweaks disabled and just following Windows audio standards. I don't like all these "dumbing-down" and slipstreaming of functions when you should let advanced users try every possible config for themselves to decide what they think sounds best.


----------



## SaLX

RPG - see that you're using closed back headphones in the main. Think a pair of open backed headphones would open up the soundstage for you? Have read all your other posts.


----------



## benbenkr

salx said:


> Evshrug.. the only way I can 'define distortion' is solely from what I've read here I'm afraid. Double amping is seen as an ultra no-no - I asked what the difference was between double amping and pre-amping (thought it the same tbh as long as it was balanced), but I guess I didn't quite understand the answers. But as I said, some people have been absolutely fine double amping, and I appreciate that none of you here would ever want to guarantee X works with Y.
> 
> Have a FiiO E5.. whatever card I get (SBZ or ZXR) with the X1, I'll check it out and see how it runs out of both the Line/RCA outs and the headphone out too.. just to see. If it works I will get something better as I will have some cash to burn soon. I'd like to get an O2 amp anyway.


 
  
 Well... while double amping is "bad", it is just general rule that people follow — similar concept to 1/8th of an output impedance.
  
 From my experience, double amping only shows its ugly side when both signals are riddled with high THD to begin with. If the soundcard line-out (or in the Z's case, the headphone out) isn't clean, then double amping it with another external amp will just highlight the distortion. Where if you connect your headphones directly into the soundcard, chances are you wouldn't be noticing much of a distortion issue.
  
 It goes on a case by case basis I believe. So to answer the question if the SBZ is fine being double amped or not, well... mostly yes. I say mostly because you WILL have to feed the Z off a very clean amp, something like a FiiO E12. The Maxim MAX97220A is stupid for having such a high output impedance in the first place, but at least it is rather clean.


----------



## Fegefeuer

Pardon my lazyness of not having read everything but does the SBZ not behave like the X-Fis (TiHD in my experience) as in going from lineout -> Amp will still give you every headphone feature if you set to headphones?
  
 I'm running mine to my DAC/AMP and do notice differences between speakers vs. headphone during gaming. When using headphones the speaker option is of no real use at all and sounds weird.


----------



## benbenkr

^
 It doesn't behave like the X-Fi cards.
  
 Headphone out is headphone out on the Z, line-out is line-out. There's no mixing and matching, which is really a step backwards.
 Perhaps Creative is making it as simple as possible to understand for the masses, headphones to the headphone out and speakers to the line-outs. People don't have to mess with the software or do tweaks or something in between.
  
 Unfortunately for those who wants more control... they lose out.


----------



## SaLX

Thing is BenB - it wouldn't even occur to your average user to buy an external amp. At least with the X-Fi's and with a bit of poking around here and on other forums some people would appreciate the benefits of buying amplifier. At least back then they had a choice.
  
 Agreed - this sucks. Do you think though that this could be changed in a future patch - it isn't a hardware feature at all is it?


----------



## benbenkr

I'm pretty sure as of right now, it is just an issue with the different HRTF algorithms on the headphone out and line-out. I doubt Creative will ever make a change in it because if they really are just making it simple for the masses, doing this would complicate matters.
  
 Perhaps a driver mod in the future may fix this. But taking a look at the Creative Z drivers, it isn't as open-ended as it was with the X-Fi drivers back then. A lot of limitations all around.


----------



## Bloodflowerz

This is just getting more complicated by the hour.
  
 So now, not only being stuck with using the headphone out of the SBz to get all the surround effects at it's best, we also have issues with the built-in headphone amp and impedance?
  
 Do all the SB-z series (Zxr, Zx and Z) use the same Texas Instruments headphone amp?


----------



## DJINFERNO806

No only the ZXR uses the TI headamp, the Z/Zx use the Maxim headamp.
  
 To summarize again, ZXR - roughly 10 ohms output impedence
                                Z/Zx - roughly 22 ohms output impedence.


----------



## Bloodflowerz

djinferno806 said:


> No only the ZXR uses the TI headamp, the Z/Zx use the Maxim headamp.
> 
> To summarize again, ZXR - roughly 10 ohms output impedence
> Z/Zx - roughly 22 ohms output impedence.


 

 Thanks DJINFERNO806!
  
 So, would my Beyer T5p @ 32ohms have issues with any of these?


----------



## DJINFERNO806

^ well according to the 1/8th guideline, it probably wouldn't be the best match.
  
 I really dont get why Creative was ok with such high output impedences?  Did they assume everyone would use 100+ ohm headphones?  Thats pretty ridiculous.  
  
 Quote:


fegefeuer said:


> Pardon my lazyness of not having read everything but does the SBZ not behave like the X-Fis (TiHD in my experience) as in going from lineout -> Amp will still give you every headphone feature if you set to headphones?
> 
> I'm running mine to my DAC/AMP and do notice differences between speakers vs. headphone during gaming. When using headphones the speaker option is of no real use at all and sounds weird.


 
  
 No what I found was while sbx surround does behave like CMSS3D's different modes, they are not selectable by the user or from which output they operate.
  
 ya check my last few posts on why speaker sbx surround differs from headphone sbx.  It works the same as CMSS3D Virtual and Headphone.


----------



## Bloodflowerz

djinferno806 said:


> ^ well according to the 1/8th guideline, it probably wouldn't be the best match.
> 
> I really dont get why Creative was ok with such high output impedences?  Did they assume everyone would use 100+ ohm headphones?  Thats pretty ridiculous.


 
  
 This makes me a sad Panda.....


----------



## domoaligato

I have the soundblaster Zx with the external ACM and I am using AD700's with the Zx.
 I also own a mixamp 2013 edition. would I get better sound with the mixamp 2013 hooked up to the spdif output then connecting my ad700's directly to the headphone out on the ACM ?


----------



## Evshrug

salx said:


> Evshrug.. the only way I can 'define distortion' is solely from what I've read here I'm afraid.
> 
> Have a FiiO E5.. whatever card I get (SBZ or ZXR) with the X1, I'll check it out and see how it runs out of both the Line/RCA outs and the headphone out too.. just to see. If it works I will get something better as I will have some cash to burn soon. I'd like to get an O2 amp anyway.




Just to be clear... "Define distortion" was more of a rhetorical question, intended to get you thinking about what distortion can be. For example, EQ could technically be considered a distortion of the original signal.

Basically however, benbenkr already did a great job summing up the deal, where you would prefer using a clean-sounding amp if possible with low THD (pretty common in the regularly recommended hi-fi amps). A noisy amp plus a noisy amp would obviously result in an even noisier final signal, but it has seemed to me to be an additive issue rather than multiplicative. I'm only speaking from experience though, I've had no noise increase problems with FiiO E5, E12, my Yamaha receiver, and my hand-made tube amp, I suppose other amps could have problems but I haven't heard any significant ones from my broad-ish testing.

-----
-----

To those lamenting the loss of headphone HRTF through line-outs: are we sure we can't? If not, it may be tied to the added ability to have both headphones and speakers plugged in at the same time, and switch outputs in-software. That was a requested feature lacking from the Ti HD. Even if you truly can't repurpose the outputs, and even if somehow I've been lucky to hear the only amps that have low distortion themselves and therefore work well double-amping, I would still say double amping the headphone-out is a non-issue because you can go anywhere from cheap amp good with low-impedance cans (the FiiO E5) to a more expensive amp for more advanced configurations (powerful portable, receiver, "exotic" tube amp). Easy problem to overcome the 22 Ohm output of the SB-Z.


----------



## Evshrug

domoaligato said:


> I have the soundblaster Zx with the external ACM and I am using AD700's with the Zx.
> I also own a mixamp 2013 edition. would I get better sound with the mixamp 2013 hooked up to the spdif output then connecting my ad700's directly to the headphone out on the ACM ?



Nope.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

^ yup that's a big negative. The z's DAC/amp is superior to the mixamp from my understanding.

The mixamp apparently also has background hiss from reports.


----------



## Evshrug

Very obvious hiss. Measure DAT S:R...


----------



## DJINFERNO806

evshrug said:


> Just to be clear... "Define distortion" was more of a rhetorical question, intended to get you thinking about what distortion can be. For example, EQ could technically be considered a distortion of the original signal.
> 
> Basically however, benbenkr already did a great job summing up the deal, where you would prefer using a clean-sounding amp if possible with low THD (pretty common in the regularly recommended hi-fi amps). A noisy amp plus a noisy amp would obviously result in an even noisier final signal, but it has seemed to me to be an additive issue rather than multiplicative. I'm only speaking from experience though, I've had no noise increase problems with FiiO E5, E12, my Yamaha receiver, and my hand-made tube amp, I suppose other amps could have problems but I haven't heard any significant ones from my broad-ish testing.
> To those lamenting the loss of headphone HRTF through line-outs: are we sure we can't? If not, it may be tied to the added ability to have both headphones and speakers plugged in at the same time, and switch outputs in-software. That was a requested feature lacking from the Ti HD. Even if you truly can't repurpose the outputs, and even if somehow I've been lucky to hear the only amps that have low distortion themselves and therefore work well double-amping, I would still say double amping the headphone-out is a non-issue because you can go anywhere from cheap amp good with low-impedance cans (the FiiO E5) to a more expensive amp for more advanced configurations (powerful portable, receiver, "exotic" tube amp). Easy problem to overcome the 22 Ohm output of the SB-Z.


 
  
  
 Well there isn't any toggle or option in the control panel to switch to a different hrtf method.  And with everything being streamlined, there really is nowhere to look for extra features lol.
  
 I posted my experience and what i heard however you guys are can always do your own listening tests and see what you think.  
 IF(I stress IF because new drivers are closed source apparently) custom drivers ever come out for the Z series, I guarantee the option will be available, its jus software really.
  
 I wonder if anyone has ever hooked up an Asgard2 or Valhalla to the Z/ZXR's headphone out.
  
  


evshrug said:


> Very obvious hiss. Measure DAT S:R...


  
  
 DAT there sound quality? lol


----------



## SaLX

@Evshrug - Good point on the loss of headphone HRTF through line-outs. As far as SPDIF output goes....
  
 I understand that with the SBZ line you were given the option to install the "speaker setup package" along with all the rest. If people don't have speakers, this is something they'd be inclined to not select:
  
  


Spoiler: Console



  


  
 Speaker configuration for 5.1, 2.1. 2ch and headphones. Does this come with the SBZ? Would it sort it?


----------



## domoaligato

salx said:


> Basically (theory crafting):
> 
> 1. Any headphone below 50-70 Ohms using the headphone out on the SBZ will run into problems (though not necessarily on the ZxR). The AD700 (the gamers cheap top headphone for positional audio) is 32 Ohms. Not good. _Thing is I've read posts where people have been happy with the SBZ/AD700 ???? _
> 
> ...




I guess this is what bothered me. Does this mean I should ditch my new ad700's? 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk


----------



## DJINFERNO806

salx said:


> @Evshrug - Good point on the loss of headphone HRTF through line-outs.
> 
> I understand that with the SBZ line you were given the option to install the "speaker setup package" along with all the rest. If people don't have speakers, this is something they'd be inclined to not select:
> 
> ...




From my understanding the speaker config is for adjusting distances and positions for the line outs. Most guys stopped installing it because it would mess up sound stage.


----------



## SaLX

@domoa and watsaname ... I've done a quick google (Sound Blaster Z AD700) and _plenty_ of people are using them without any complaints. The old X-Fi's and Xonars (I think) all had the same output impedance of 20ish or more. No way would that headphone ever have got so popular if it didn't plain work sticking into your standard gamer's soundcard.


----------



## domoaligato

salx said:


> @domoa and watsaname ... I've done a quick google (Sound Blaster Z AD700) and _plenty_ of people are using them without any complaints. The old X-Fi's and Xonars (I think) all had the same output impedance of 20ish. No way would that headphone ever have got so popular if it didn't plain work sticking into your standard gamer's soundcard.


 
 Thanks! 
 Basically I came to this thread on the endless search about scout mode. I have read in a few places that better results can be achieved adjusting the software eq.
 I was curious what your opinions are on the eq and how to best adjust it for CS:GO


----------



## Evshrug

domoaligato said:


> I guess this is what bothered me. Does this mean I should ditch my new ad700's?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk



I wouldn't if I was you. Just add a FiiO E5 or E11 between the headphones and sound card. Feel free to report that my guess on the issue was wrong, and really the SBX processing doesn't work for you.

If you do decide to return your new Ad700 (which would be a shame), a more expensive option offering what you're looking for could be Sony's MA900. It's also 32 ohms and pretty sensitive (easy to drive), but it has an impedance compensator built-in, and also amazing soundstage with surround processing. It costs more though.... #1suggestion is just buy a FiiO or something.


----------



## watsaname

salx said:


> @domoa and watsaname ... I've done a quick google (Sound Blaster Z AD700) and _plenty_ of people are using them without any complaints. The old X-Fi's and Xonars (I think) all had the same output impedance of 20ish or more. No way would that headphone ever have got so popular if it didn't plain work sticking into your standard gamer's soundcard.


 
 Well it is a very personal problem, some people probably never heard the 'phones with proper output impedance and just find what they are listening to as normal. I have experience with more then just the Sound Blaster Z, not that any of it is hard-core audiophiles stuff, but I know there is definitely something wrong with the sound of the ad700s when using the headphone out on the back of the Z card.
  
 I am currently using the front panel connectors and it sound fine now, none of the head-drilling voices. Also I don't get any feedback from the electronics from within the case, so that is cool. Whether or not it is still using the good soundcard dac is up to debate though. More testing needs to be done, but I can't exactly do a/b testing without some extra amp to use. 
  
 To get them to allow "Headphone-Mode" from the line out maybe we should start flooding their inboxes with requests or a petition or something. Depending on how they coded everything, it would not seem too hard for them to have a "Headphone - Line Out" tab in the drop down for speakers.


----------



## domoaligato

thanks. e11 it is then. Moar Powa!


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

It's funny... you guys would want headphone mode for lineout, I'm the opposite that wants stereo speakers/5.1 for headphone jack (because I always found the soundstage better since Audigy days in the Creative drivers if using stereo vs headphones). xD Is really only me noticing better soundstage using lineout vs headphone jack? Don't you prefer a more surround experience or do you like a more claustrophobic stereo image of headphone mode? Just curious, I'm a surround enthusiast that prefers music surrounding me and putting me in center of it so everything can swirl around me, the headphone HRTF is more like listening to two speakers coming slightly in front of you and I just don't like that.


----------



## watsaname

rpgwizard said:


> It's funny... you guys would want headphone mode for lineout, I'm the opposite that wants stereo speakers/5.1 for headphone jack (because I always found the soundstage better since Audigy days in the Creative drivers if using stereo vs headphones). xD Is really only me noticing better soundstage using lineout vs headphone jack? Don't you prefer a more surround experience or do you like a more claustrophobic stereo image of headphone mode? Just curious, I'm a surround enthusiast that prefers music surrounding me and putting me in center of it so everything can swirl around me, the headphone HRTF is more like listening to two speakers coming slightly in front of you.


 
 Mmm, well for me I get the claustrophobic feeling from the headphone, most likely output impedance trickery. After plugging my headphones into the front panel of my computer, it feels like it solved the claustrophobic feeling though. I am thinking the front panel connector has a lower output impedance. Or it could all just be beautiful placebo, not too sure yet.
  
 The line out/speaker out is just screwed up sound-stage where like everything is only coming from in front of you. It makes it feel like your headphones are mimicking a 2.0 speaker set up rather then being actual headphones. But I just think that is just cause the speaker out is using an algorithm to make sure you can only the stuff in front of you only from in front of you.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

I dont see why it creative couldnt do it.  Instead of using HRTF method 1, use method 2.  Done. lol.  
  
 The X-FI did this.  Different cmss3d modes.  Headphone & Virtual.
  
 They tried to do a one size fits all audio card to fit the masses.  They probably figured it would intrigue all the regular PC joes who never gave a thought to PC audio. But in the process they forgot about the hardcore guys like us who like tinkering and options.
  


watsaname said:


> *But I just think that is just cause the speaker out is using an algorithm to make sure you can only the stuff in front of you only from in front of you. *


 
 Thats what ive been saying since the beginning when people started saying it sounded different.  By design it has to.


----------



## watsaname

Yeah, I agree they made it very straightforward and user friendly, no real tinkering required. Which is unfortunate for those of us who want to have more control over things.
  
 If they are afraid of making the GUI too complicated for new users, they can do something similar to what MSI Afterburner does. To access everything like voltage control and higher overclocking, you have to go into the user.ini and add a line of text.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

rpgwizard said:


> It's funny... you guys would want headphone mode for lineout, I'm the opposite that wants stereo speakers/5.1 for headphone jack (because I always found the soundstage better since Audigy days in the Creative drivers if using stereo vs headphones). xD Is really only me noticing better soundstage using lineout vs headphone jack? Don't you prefer a more surround experience or do you like a more claustrophobic stereo image of headphone mode? Just curious, I'm a surround enthusiast that prefers music surrounding me and putting me in center of it so everything can swirl around me, the headphone HRTF is more like listening to two speakers coming slightly in front of you and I just don't like that.


 
  
 No what most of these guys want is the headphone HRTF mode from the line outs so they can amp those externally without having to use the headphone out's amp and then the external amp.
  
 The headphone HRTF is made to exactly do that, mimic 2 speakers that would come from in front of you.  You want to be enveloped with surround stereo im assuming?  So what you want is what SBX surround does when you select 5.1 speakers and have a 2.0 music source playing.  Upmixing of 2 channel sound into stereo surround or maybe even more what pro logic would do?  Basically what CMSS3D Surround would do.
  
 I was thinking about what you were saying that perhaps the problems with the claustrophobic sound stage is software.  Why dont you use stereo direct with your headphones and let me know what that sounds like.  That bypasses all creative processing and sends the pcm stream right to the DAC.  This in theory should give you an idea if your theory is correct.
  
 Just an idea


----------



## benbenkr

I took a look again at the driver configs for the SBZ/Zx and apparently all users can do now is edit a few .ini settings (bass boost, crystalizer, treble control, those sorta things you can already do through the control panel), most of which has no adjustment to alter the software.
 Back on X-Fi drivers, users could alter what needs to be disabled or enabled, changed and what not, right down to dealing with registries.
  
 Pretty much confirms Creative's way of trying to reach out to the masses. It's going to take some clever tinkering to even come up with a proper modded Z driver.
  
 The ZxR has a different set of drivers btw.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

I will take a look at the ZXR ini's when I get home, but im doutbful it will be any different.


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

djinferno806 said:


> No what most of these guys want is the headphone HRTF mode from the line outs so they can amp those externally without having to use the headphone out's amp and then the external amp.
> 
> The headphone HRTF is made to exactly do that, mimic 2 speakers that would come from in front of you.  You want to be enveloped with surround stereo im assuming?  So what you want is what SBX surround does when you select 5.1 speakers and have a 2.0 music source playing.  Upmixing of 2 channel sound into stereo surround or maybe even more what pro logic would do?  Basically what CMSS3D Surround would do.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I don't have the card installed but I remember Stereo direct sounding quite the same as "stereo" which to me sounds better than using headphone mode. But yea my preferences are like I don't want to hear a direction from where music comes from, I want myself to be center and everything else surrounding me, then I get the ideal listening experience. Yes I quite enjoyed how music sounded with SBX but it did hurt sound quality a little bit so therefore I wasn't fully satisfied using it like that.

 I think it's a conjunction of high output impedance + the way Creative does the headphone HRTF that makes me dislike the ZxR, that I get even more satisfaction with an onboard Realtek (in this case with the best of the best when it comes to Realtek, ALC1150 + TI NE5532 opamps). With Realtek I'm using 5.1 speakers with certain speaker options + "Front" volume which affects overall volume besides the main volume slider set to 98%, yes lowering this from 100% to 98% affects soundstage slightly from being everything pushed more in-your-face/in-your-head leaving very little depth presence at 100% to still pretty up-front sounding at 98% but much more depth. This config makes for my taste a much more engaging soundstaging.
  
 The Realtek also had better synergy with my headphones and amp, now it sounds perfectly balanced in the mids and highs versus ZxR with this same config being a bit too murky sounding, lack of highs sparkliness and overhelming bass (not overly tight either). The Realtek has tighter bass (but still very plentiful, big difference versus older chips) and a more analytical neutral sound (I pictured ZxR slightly towards a warm "analog" sound, I loved the mids and that's where ZxR's keystrength lies but both the highs and bass I'd give to the Realtek with this particular amp+headphone config. The ZO has same signature as ZxR so it got too much of the "good" so to speak, while with the Realtek config which is quite analytical sounding with those opamps seems to have perfect synergy with the ZO amp and I'm guessing the impedance must be a lot lower too).
  
 ZxR is a good card but it just doesn't work for me, the way I want to hear music + the equipment I got.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

^ that's fair to be honest. at the end of the day whatever sounds best to you.

I don't know if its my ears that are fubar'd but I don't get that small soundstage or clusterphobic sound. My zxr sounds fantastic to me. More so than similarly priced schiit or fiio DACs/amps.

Lol weird...


----------



## Fegefeuer

I don't have all these problems either but then I am using the digital out (yeah, with the ZxR =D)


----------



## SaLX

Fegefeuer - see you're using digital out. If your using headphones is there any chance you could tell us if you can select Headphones as well as Speakers in the Speakers/Headphones tab in the Creative CP? This is of great interest to me. Also check out DJInferno's post over at http://www.overclock.net/t/1337761/creative-sound-blaster-z-zx-zxr-series/1130
  
 Many thanks.


----------



## Fegefeuer

yes, you can switch between headphones and speakers (which I regularly do) and yes the SBX modes are different. Easy test with Guild Wars Login Screen with the campfire. With Headphone mode you get all the coherence with headphones on, with speaker mode it's too wide and dependant on L/R.
  
 Since the campfire starts at the left side of the screen (background pans through the scenery) the speaker mode is very focused on the left ear and is weird/flat, with headphone mode everything gets space and does not have this extreme sided effect.
  
 The good thing about Guild Wars is that it supports EAX (GW2 does not, played it for 5-6 hours max anyway) so I tested everything again with Alchemy on (SBX is turned off automatically as known) and it's the same difference. The Creative software indeed uses different algorithms depending on which mode you select.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

^ do you mean you can switch between modes and it affects the optical out sound? 

Pardon my ignorance, I don't use digital out.


----------



## Fegefeuer

yes


----------



## SaLX

Further confirmation that Speakers mode (unlike the previous X-FI's) is not in any way compatible for surround headphone use if you're using the lineouts to an amp; or if you're using SPDIF/Optical out either. Speaker mode is totally for Speakers and that's it.
  
 Fegefeuer, thanks for replying - I take it that you can at least switch to clean 2 channel audio, using 'stereo direct' for the very best stereo audio in Headphone mode? Does it do it at 192Khz? One thing though.. you said that you "switch all the time" - why'd you do that if the sound is all fluffed up?
  
 **EDIT** 





> Now that Feg (thank you.. at last somebody here is using optical) has confirmed that headphone mode works via SPDIF (*EDIT* new article from Creative supports this http://support.creative.com/kb/ShowArticle.aspx?sid=121466.), it looks likely I'll be going for a cheap $65 OEM *Soundblaster Z *and an *Audio-GD DAC/AMP* version 11 or 15 via SPDIF out. You could do the same setup with a cheap Xonar too I'm sure.
> 
> This option is almost half as much again as getting a ZxR/STX, but ***k it... The ACM and daughterboard are extraneous unneeded junk to me as far as Creative's offering goes. The STX has Dolby Headphone: but after comparing the two surround technologies in RL, I far prefer SBZ Pro Studio. DH sounds lush though; bit messy but great. (Only heard through the DG v an SBZ).
> 
> ...


----------



## Fegefeuer

I only switch to speakers when using my Neumann Monitors so whenever I don't want to use headphones. 
  
 I don't listen to music via the ZxR or let's say I transport the music over the USB of my D2 and use the ZxR for games and movies only.
  
 Stereo direct goes into speaker mode and in my case it sets the optical out to default playback device. You can set 192khz.


----------



## SaLX

@Fegefeuer > so basically stereo direct in SPDIF mode from your Sound Blaster @192 kHz can't be used by headphones? So no use then?


----------



## Fegefeuer

if you set the option "Stereo Direct" then the panel switches to speakers and sets the card to 192/24.
 If you try to switch back to headphones then "stereo direct" will get removed and you're back with headphones but that is not an issue if you want your pure stereo signal.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Since stereo direct is a direct pathway from the windows mixer to the z's DAC, I wouldn't think it would have an effect on the optical out.


----------



## Fegefeuer

Hey DJ,
  
 did you experiment with the SBX slider? What did you like between 67% default and 100%?


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Well I use 67% default. The reason is I find its the best compromise of accuracy and surround immersion.

The higher I go towards 100% the less accurate the sound stage begins to be. Let me try and explain.

So if I sound came from my rear right at lets say coordinates (10,10). At 67% I can hear that its at (10,10) but at 100% I can only tell its in between my rear right and my absolute right, or (5 to 10, 5 to 10). 

Another explanation is the channels start to bleed together. Lower than 67% you lose immersion and the channels start to close off and you begin to get a straight stereo effect without any hrtf.

Hope that makes sense.

For me accuracy is more important so that's why I pick this. Also I felt like it muffled or exaggerated sounds at distances when set towards 100%. Hard to explain this one but maybe it messes with the volume and eq of some sounds. 

67% seems best at emulating a properly calibrated and eq'd 5.1 home theatre(I use mine in comparison). Seems reasonable that creative would use this as default.

As always whatever sounds best to you is the best choice.


----------



## Fegefeuer

I agree with your findings 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 There's something I forgot to mention in all these weeks!
  
*A WARNING*:
  
*If you previously had an X-Fi card in your system and didn't do a fresh install for the SB-Z(xR) you might risk getting wrong settings for ALL your OpenAL/Alchemy "settings"*. I remember someone in the OC forums talk about a certain stereo effect (I also call it dead ear effect) during OpenAL/EAX games and I had the same experience. I even deleted every piece of Creative file or folder manually (when I got this card) after using tools I normally not recommend (Driver Cleaner) but it never worked so I blamed "Software OpenAL" for not being that good compared to Hardware acc.  What really happened was classic oldschool Creative software bullcrap. 
  
 Anyway, after a fresh install everything works much better now, the effect is gone. There's no weird panning now in OpenAL/DS3D games, UT3 is fantastic to play (or to test as I just fool around since I stopped playing these kind of games ages go - also explains how bad I am ).
  
 Guild Wars works with all effects and does not have the dead ear effect. Not sure what other problems arose for other users but Creative software fragments causing erratical behaviour is still a threat in 2013, even though I didn't have a single problem with my X-Fis (since I didn't change to something else like in this case).
  
 So yes, be warned, really try a fresh windows install.
  
 So let me narrow people's decision once again:
  
 The only case where you could prefer a Titanium HD or any other X-Fi is when you need the Elevation/MacroFX Filters to be at AUTO (Software OpenAL is default ON) or selectable. AUTO is safe, ON causes problems in games like Medieval 2 with squealing units when flying over them with the camera. Note sure about other games. 
  
 Other than that there's no reason to get an older card anymore.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

^ hmmm that's interesting because a lot of guys over in the overclock.net forums were blaming the z and generic software openal for this effect. And I always thought it strange because I had perfect openal hrtf.

I think you should post this over there in their z thread. It would help a lot of guys I imagine.

Great find bro!! 

+1


----------



## Anarion

fegefeuer said:


> I agree with your findings
> 
> There's something I forgot to mention in all these weeks!
> 
> ...


It would be so great if they added the Elevation Filters and MacroFX auto/on/off setting. I have quit many games that do not sound right when those are forced on (which is what it currently does). Other than that it works great.


----------



## Bloodflowerz

Wow.....thanks Fegefeuer for confirming that Headphone mode works over optical. I'll now ditch my STX and too purchase a SB-Z.
  
 I too will be buying an external DAC and connecting this via USB to my computer @ 192/24 for Music reproduction and using the optical from the SB-z for games and movies.
  
 I'm no longer a sad Panda


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Ya it seems a lot more people will be buying the cheaper z and just going optical out to DAC/amp. Especially now its been confirmed.

Even I'm contemplating selling my zxr and going that route..... Oh dear...


----------



## Fegefeuer

A dac/amp is more flexible but it needs to be really good. I wouldn't touch a DAC/AMP that gives a hum/hiss or noise with very sensitive inears or headphones.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Ya I know that's definitely a concern. 

I was looking at an asgard2 or Valhalla coupled with a Loki or bifrost... Need to read some more reviews.


----------



## watsaname

I was looking at the Audio GD 15.32 or the Tubemagic D1, but it seems more people recommend or only have the Audio GD when looking at the HD600 thread.


----------



## Skipshrike

djinferno806 said:


> Ya I know that's definitely a concern.
> 
> I was looking at an asgard2 or Valhalla coupled with a Loki or bifrost... Need to read some more reviews.


 
 I recall that the Loki complements a DAC and provides DSD for it.
  
 I had a good chuckle because I was looking at a Lyr and Bifrost myself.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

LOL. Just saw that, didn't notice it was an addon. Thanks for that tip haha.

Well definitely don't need DSD.


----------



## Skipshrike

No problem. I've been looking into getting some Schitt gear for a while for USB or stereo direct through the optical out.


----------



## SaLX

domoaligato said:


> Thanks!
> Basically I came to this thread on the endless search about scout mode. I have read in a few places that better results can be achieved adjusting the software eq.
> I was curious what your opinions are on the eq and how to best adjust it for CS:GO


 
 Domo:
  
 You'll know full well that Scout Mode is enabled via a keyboard toggle. Why would you want to _match_ the EQ of Scout mode (with probably 100% crystalizer being used too), when you can just toggle it on or off when needed? Any game would sound awful EQ'd this way by trying to match "Scout Mode On" all the time. I presume the bass in scout-mode is dropped to nothing with the mids and highs being boosted way way up. Use the toggle keyboard shortcut.
  
 As far as CS goes.. check out this very good review of the Z:


----------



## domoaligato

salx said:


> Domo:
> 
> You'll know full well that Scout Mode is enabled via a keyboard toggle. Why would you want to _match_ the EQ of Scout mode (with probably 100% crystalizer being used too), when you can just toggle it on or off when needed? Any game would sound awful EQ'd this way by trying to match "Scout Mode On" all the time. I presume the bass in scout-mode is dropped to nothing with the mids and highs being boosted way way up. Use the toggle keyboard shortcut.
> 
> As far as CS goes.. check out this very good review of the Z:


 
  
 I am sorry you misunderstood what I was asking about, but your video is great and I am going to try the settings you suggest in the video.
  
 thanks.
  
 p.s. ever been on geekhack.org? I <3 mechanicalkeyboards.
  
 p.s.s. my modmic 3.0 works great with my Z


----------



## SaLX

Not my vid Domo  And yeah looking to get a modmic.. hopefully version 4 but there are other options out there.


----------



## domoaligato

salx said:


> Not my vid Domo


 
 either way I liked his detailed description of the surround mode and crystalizer functions.
 basically every since I bought the card I have been running around in csgo with scoutmode on all the time. thanks for trying to help.


----------



## SaLX

Lol Domo - I used to be consistently at the top of the leaderboards in just about every FPS shooter I played. I can easily say situational awareness,_ knowing the map_, intuition, blind luck, reflexes and a certain amount of testosterone came into it. 3D sound/CMSS-3D helped a lot back then, but it's just one aspect of being competitive.
  
 I'm getting on now (47), so my synapses are _no way as good _- might as well enjoy myself with a good book...... or take up gardening or something. Still though, like to game and I won't go to my grave without a fight (but it'll be using SBZ Pro Studio though this time lol 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 )
  
 Scout mode I'm sure, is invaluable when you're in a room and some guy is sneaking around outside:  is the screw*cker going to the left door? Right door? Oh I can hear him....... lol he's at the window --- BAM. Otherwise, toggle it off. It's a great addition to the software suite though.


----------



## domoaligato

I am 32 and no noob to all the things you mentioned. I have played the cs series since 1.3 beta and am just trying to find the best tuning for the source engine. Trial and error I guess.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk


----------



## SaLX

Forgotten really.. but EAX + Alchemy should work these days for CS via the SBZ suite....and be better than the games that are out just now. Do a search here or in Nameless's thread.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Good luck trying to get ds3d to work with the source engine again... 

None of my alchemy settings worked. And when they did it sounded like games were under water. Even after setting legacy sound engine in source console.

If someone else has good settings let me know.


----------



## SoFGR

djinferno806 said:


> Good luck trying to get ds3d to work with the source engine again...
> 
> None of my alchemy settings worked. And when they did it sounded like games were under water. Even after setting legacy sound engine in source console.
> 
> If someone else has good settings let me know.


 
 DAMN ! even these ones didn't work ?   -> http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2608992 
  
 currently using  astro mixamp 2011 (USB) -> razer surround -> AKG K601, like it very much in unreal engine games like RO2 but in source engine the 7.1 downmix sounds kinda weird  AND inaccurate, surround OFF and source's own headphone mode sounds much better when sound whoring n00bs at L4D !   guess i'll have to try SBX surround 67% + 5.1  when i get my hands on the  audigy FX + creative aurvana live! (had those AKGs for 4 years and a half now, feel like they're about to fall apart lol )


----------



## Radical_53

Wasn't L4D supposed to be a cooperative game? How could you sound-whore someone there?


----------



## Fegefeuer

djinferno806 said:


> Good luck trying to get ds3d to work with the source engine again...
> 
> None of my alchemy settings worked. And when they did it sounded like games were under water. Even after setting legacy sound engine in source console.
> 
> If someone else has good settings let me know.


 
  
 Did you get the latest alchemy? It's 1.44. I don't think it's official either but its dsound.dll is almost a year newer. 
  
 http://fichiers.touslesdrivers.com/38499/Creative_alchemy_1.44.00.zip
  
  
 Another thing:
  
http://forums.creative.com/showthread.php?t=699943
  
 Can anybody with an account (Creative doesn't unlock mine since forever) tell this guy to reset his drivers or do a complete fresh install since
  


> Surround left is a lot louder than surround right speaker


 
  
 very familiar. He probably had an older card in his system before and this can happen, both with 5.1 and with virtualized 5.1 (headphones)


----------



## SoFGR

radical_53 said:


> Wasn't L4D supposed to be a cooperative game? How could you sound-whore someone there?


 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BG5st3fk9_s
  
 haven't touched the coop mode in years


----------



## SaLX

Tried to post Feg - I'm in the same boat posting wise there (grrrr). Hopefully somebody else can help this poor guy. Hopefully somebody can design better forums for Creative too... they haven't changed in years, you can't search for anything with any accuracy, it looks terrible. _Basically Creative's Forum is crap._


----------



## domoaligato

I could not post on creative either so I sent him/her a pm on there boards and refered him here and told him/her to uninstall and reinstall the drivers.


----------



## Fegefeuer

Yeah, or even fresh install (as it was the only solution in my case).
  
 Anyway, for all interested in DACs. Did you check out the news about Asus new DAC/AMP?
  
http://www.techpowerup.com/192647/asus-launches-essence-iii-preamplifier-usb-dac-and-headphone-amplifier.html
  
 I had the Essence One for a time and it was quite good for its price.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Ya they also apparently are launching the new Essence STU which is pretty much based on their STX but as an external unit.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7441/asus-launches-xonar-essence-stu-usb-dac

I had thought the essence III was more promising until I realized it was probably going to be around the same price as the essence one, $1000?

The STU will be roughly $400 however I do understand they are aimed at different customers so its hard to compare the 2 solely on each other. Its also hard to justify $400 as well when you realize they are using similar components(albeit a better power delivery method) to the STX but for double the price. Something about using $5 headphone amps(at least thats what price I could find online) and charging that much doesn't sit right with me. It will probably still be limited in its power for headphones since it uses the same headamp and still have the same higher than desired output impedence.

.....$1000 eh?... lol


----------



## watsaname

Just tried getting Alchemy to work with Black Mesa, didn't really seem to improve anything IF it did anything. Might be doing it wrong, but I added it the way the guy who did the Portal 2 tutorial. I tried both the actual path for Black Mesa, then I tried the path for source mod 2007.


----------



## SaLX

The whole question about being able to use Headphone mode was answered all along in this rather cryptic FAQ from Creative:
  
http://support.creative.com/kb/ShowArticle.aspx?sid=76771.
  
 If I'm reading it right that is. Got an another email back from Creative after a long pause which totally bewildered me....
  


> Me: (abridged) SBZ (Headphone Mode not Stereo Mode) > Optical/SPDIF > external DAC/AMP > Stereo headphones with surround?
> 
> Creative: Yes you can select headphone as output, However please note that headphone option will only work if your headset is connected to the Line in/ Mic in port.


 
 ???


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Lol wut? Another amazing response from creative reps?

Even the FAQ was a little strange. Enabling spdif as default results in no signal out if encoding is used? What? Is this real life? Chart B....

Even after reading the whole thing I still couldn't get the answer we needed. It just said which ports are disabled.


----------



## RPGWiZaRD




----------



## watsaname

Yeah, I don't know who they hired for their support team. It seems like they just have their customer support read the back of the box and just tell the customer w/e they read from the box.


----------



## SaLX

FYI - This is the preceding email I got from them last week:


> Thank you for getting back to us.
> 
> Yes the setup is possible, However please take note of the following:
> 
> ...


 
  
 Well, I wanted official confirmation from them that's all.  Don't know if any of you want to try and ask them for a laugh (tip.. make it as simple a question as possible).
  
http://uk.creative.com/contactus/ (select product enquiry dropdown) or if you own one (use the tech support enquiry) - think you'll need the serial.


----------



## Bloodflowerz

salx said:


> The whole question about being able to use Headphone mode was answered all along in this rather cryptic FAQ from Creative:
> 
> http://support.creative.com/kb/ShowArticle.aspx?sid=76771.
> 
> ...


 
  
 The link is down, they must be getting too many requests for this particular page, more than their bandwidth can handle lol


----------



## SaLX

This seems to work. http://us.creative.com/contactus But actually DON'T get in touch with them... it's not worth your sanity.
  
 Also found this over at HardForum (posted by Farkle):
  


> I also agree with InnervateD that the Recon3D is probably the biggest disappointment since the Audigy LS. But if you do toslink out from the Recon3D, to a well implemented budget DAC that exceeds the performance levels of the ZxR (ESS Sabre32 and AD based DAC come to mind) you're going to be under the ZxR's asking price, with the same gaming features from the Recon3D and Z at your fingertips (with the exception of having to constantly change the bit-rate in the playback device properties in Windows, to match the stereo mix to your output which could be solved with a driver update.) That at least covers the 2.1 stereo and headphone crowd for positional DSP.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Did the recon3d get updated to sbx pro studio now and no more thx?


I though we already confirmed that headphone hrtf works with digital out?

Its quite easy to tell via listening tests in games or surround files... They will sound completely different in positioning.


----------



## Fegefeuer

It's like the Titanium HD where I hooked it up via optical as well for CMSS-3D (games) and THX (Movies).


----------



## SaLX

> I though we already confirmed that headphone hrtf works with digital out?


 
 Sorry DJ, got spooked by Creative's response.....


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Lol no need to apologize, I was just confused as to why you guys were trying to get it out of creative. I guess more confirmation from others is needed too.

Lol and to be honest I don't think you ever will... Unless you get one of the actual software engineers talking.

Can more people test this out and post their results.


----------



## domoaligato

bloodflowerz said:


> The link is down, they must be getting too many requests for this particular page, more than their bandwidth can handle lol


 
 support.creative.com is down. not just that link. /facepalm.


----------



## Fegefeuer

Guys. I just tested it again for you but with a youtube-video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpIddQyhpSo&hd=1
  
 headphone stereo=speaker stereo. With SBX off it's the same. 
  
 SBX headphone (windows 5.1) is NOT like SBX speaker stereo
 SBX headphhne (windows 2.0 to have the same channel as the speakers) is also NOT like SBX speaker stereo.
  
 In both SBX cases it's about the total loss of an attempt to create a phantom center when you listen to SBX speakers on your headphones. Everything's on the extreme left and right. That's how SBX speaker is actually supposed to work.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Thats digital out feg?


----------



## Fegefeuer

always


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Lol awesome. Thanks for the testing and helping everyone out.


----------



## Skipshrike

I'm a bit confused. So it was proven that SBX through speakers does not sound like SBX through headphones?


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Yes, both from the analog outs and digital out too.

Go back a few pages you'll see my findings on the analog out differences and why its like that.

Its what I've said for a while now, you can't have the same hrtf for headphones and speakers. Technologically its not possible.


----------



## Skipshrike

I was confused because I thought that something designed for headphones wouldn't work out the same for speakers.

I don't mean to sound rude. Apologies if a reader sees my comment as such.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Lol I don't think you came off rude. Just actually confused.

But ya, you have the general idea down right. And like feg tested and confirmed, when you use digital out the behaviour is: 

1)If you select headphone mode, you get sbx headphone surround through digital

Or

2) if you select speaker mode, you get speaker sbx surround through digital

Feg, correct me if I'm wrong in my interpretation of your results.


----------



## Fegefeuer

yes, just like the older cards.


----------



## SaLX

*EDIT* Thanks all Feg and DJ (it was both questions I was wanting official confirmation from Creative about: headphone mode via optical, and speakers mode via optical - both with working SBZ surround) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Creative's 'support' site team can _go and stuff themselves. _Again, I only wanted official confirmation from Creative so please forgive.
  
 Eyeing up the Yulong D100 MKII < Optical < OEM SBZ. Head-Fi inflation.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Hey Sal,

You get any emi noise when using headphones/line out on your OEM z? 

Just curious how prone these analog components are to noise without a shield.


----------



## SaLX

Don't have one yet DJ!
  
 The OEM Z - It'll be hit or miss I imagine, especially if your system is overclocked (like mine's is). By how much, or if any I cannot speculate. Mind you my old X-Fi Xtreme Gamer Fatal1ty Pro (no EMI either) sat in my ridiculously overclocked rig 4-5 years ago and no problems. From what I've heard though (as you'll very likely know).. a clean PSU and good MB helps. SSD too.
  
 Sorry I can't help - only looking for ideas for my next setup - and there's a ****tone of them here.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Oh OK fair enough... Some guys over at overclock.net had reports of this especially when their CPU or motherboard vrms would scale up and down in frequency.

So I was just wondering.


----------



## Bloodflowerz

Sorry for the dumb question but where are you acquiring OEM SB-z from? I've only ever seen retail boxed versions for sale in the UK and Germany?


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

skipshrike said:


> I'm a bit confused. So it was proven that SBX through speakers does not sound like SBX through headphones?


 

 Yes, you could have asked me about that too, I thought it was clearly audible for every1. Speakers / 5.1 speakers won't sound the same as headphone HRTF with SBX, headphone HRTF sounds much more accurate positioning wise if using headphones.

 You can simply run the demo SBX clip with both configs to verify, it's not that hard to notice the difference... 

 With 5.1 speakers the default 67% worked best (still not as good as using headphone) but with Headphone for me personally, 91% surround works best (tested mainly with UT3 while running windowed mode, tweaking in realtime).

 So yea if you are using SBX with headphones, then headphone speaker type should definitely be used.


----------



## SaLX

bloodflowerz said:


> Sorry for the dumb question but where are you acquiring OEM SB-z from? I've only ever seen retail boxed versions for sale in the UK and Germany?


 
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Creative-PCI-E-Sound-Blaster-Soundcard/dp/B009S1NTUU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1382602060&sr=8-1&keywords=sound+blaster+z+oem
  
 and Scan.co.uk no doubt.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

If you are in the US, Newegg.com has a few oem models.
  
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829102054
  
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829102053
  
 Imho its not worth the $20 difference for there not to be support from creative and no EMI shield.. If the card was outside the PC, maybe the EMI shield wouldn't make a difference but inside with multiple video cards and OC'd components, dont like the chances.
  
  


rpgwizard said:


> Yes, you could have asked me about that too, I thought it was clearly audible for every1. Speakers / 5.1 speakers won't sound the same as headphone HRTF with SBX, headphone HRTF sounds much more accurate positioning wise if using headphones.
> 
> You can simply run the demo SBX clip with both configs to verify, it's not that hard to notice the difference...
> 
> ...


 
  
 Also to add to this,
  
 If you select 5.1 speakers in Z control panel and you select SBX surround, it will upmix/matrix stereo sound into surround.  This is based on creative's feature list wording, user reports and also what CMSS3D surround used to do with 5.1 setups.
  
 I dont have 5.1 PC speakers so I cant test this out personally, but if somebody else could please?  Also test out what happens when you send 5.1 signal to the Z and then use sbx surround with 5.1 speakers... I'm kind of confused what it would do, if anything.


----------



## Fegefeuer

I don't understand the 5.1 music thing over the Z. Any decent 5.1 setup is able to copy it's stereo channels to the rears or include the center decently. My decade old Creative inspire did this. 
  
 I don't understand either why you would listen to 5.1 music on a desk. Any decent nearfield monitor will destroy those little ones.


----------



## Skipshrike

Well I always considered SBX to be exclusively for headphones, in its design. This made me wonder, "Why are we trying for speakers while playing music?" Anyway, I usually have SBX off for music.

I've recently become addicted to the Z's profile feature. It's fantastic for testing EQ settings.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Well there are those that like music engulfing them. I am not one of those. Unless its recorded that way. Like I said before I think creative is catering to as many as possible with these features. 

And we get screwed due to simplification. No control over sbx modes.


----------



## Anarion

rpgwizard said:


> Yes, you could have asked me about that too, I thought it was clearly audible for every1. Speakers / 5.1 speakers won't sound the same as headphone HRTF with SBX, headphone HRTF sounds much more accurate positioning wise if using headphones.
> 
> 
> You can simply run the demo SBX clip with both configs to verify, it's not that hard to notice the difference...
> ...


By the way, you aren't using Generic Software device in UT3, right (it sounds like you are though)? SBX should get disabled in that game if you are configured it properly. If you are using SBX in it, you are seriously reducing the processing there. You should manually put correct device name in config file.

I like speaker SBX mode than headphone SBX because the speaker mode has much wider sound stage. I can trade some accuracy for sound stage (and IMO better sound overall - although the main reason is that headphone out is just so damn loud). I keep the SBX slider at 15% and I only use SBX in Skyrim because it is bugged in standard stereo mode.


----------



## SaLX

Dj check this out re your question: http://forums.creative.com/showthread.php?t=699845


----------



## DJINFERNO806

anarion said:


> By the way, you aren't using Generic Software device in UT3, right? SBX should get disabled in that game if you are configured it properly. If you are using SBX in it, you are seriously reducing the processing there. You should manually put correct device name in config file.
> 
> I like speaker SBX mode than headphone SBX because the speaker mode has much wider sound stage. I can trade some accuracy for sound stage (and IMO better sound overall - although the main reason is that headphone out is just so damn loud). I keep the SBX slider at 15% and I only use SBX in Skyrim because it is bugged in standard stereo mode.




Ya from what I remember, if you don't use hardware openal, you can't get surround(aka premixed 5.1). You need to use openal's own hrtf. 

Rpgwizard, are you sure your not getting stereo and then using sbx surround?

@Sal,

Well looks like the only way to get stereo surround is through your amp and speakers control.


----------



## Fegefeuer

Or plugins that copy those channels.


----------



## SaLX

Not meaning to be in anyway contentious, but Creative sent me this just now:
  


> Dear Jamie,
> 
> Thank you for getting back to us.
> 
> ...


 
 Should I mail them back and tell them that they are wrong?


----------



## DJINFERNO806

^ I'm still trying to decipher what the hell he is talking about?

Line in/mic in what?


----------



## SaLX

_'Line In / Microphone In jack: Connects to line-level sources (for example, MP3 players) or microphones with a 3.5mm (1/8-inch) __plug'._
  
 Basically Creative are saying that you won't get to use Headphone Mode unless you have a microphone or an MP3 player in the Line In (What); and no mention of Headphone Out or the Line Outs either, which actually do use Headphone Mode.
  
 Is Asus support like this?????
  
 screw it. In terms of Headphone Mode/SPDIF question we know it works, even though Creative do not. _*Edit* I only ask this because Feg confirmed that it works on the ZxR;  but the ZxR (unlike the Z) has it's digital out on a separate daughterboard._ Is there a difference - again, I just want it confirmed?
  
 Don't want to order up gear and find it dead on expectations (aka DOE).


----------



## watsaname

Didn't Asus drop support for their Xonar cards, basically making everyone rely on 3rd party drivers for it to function well?


----------



## Axaion

watsaname said:


> Didn't Asus drop support for their Xonar cards, basically making everyone rely on 3rd party drivers for it to function well?


 
 Cant drop support on something you never supported!


----------



## DJINFERNO806

salx said:


> _'Line In / Microphone In jack: Connects to line-level sources (for example, MP3 players) or microphones with a 3.5mm (1/8-inch)_ _plug'._
> 
> Basically Creative are saying that you won't get to use Headphone Mode unless you have a microphone or an MP3 player in the Line In (What); and no mention of Headphone Out or the Line Outs either which actually do use Headphone Mode.
> 
> ...





The digital out should behave in the same manner on the z. At least in the way you want. I think the daughter board mostly just focuses on recording and supporting room that the ADC needs with the opamps. I'm sure it wouldn't have room on the zxr. Not without sacrificing separation of components at least.



I'm more curious as to how the daughter boards separate processor handles encoding of digital out. Is it faster to where there is no lag that z users are noticing? It would make sense since you aren't sharing processing power with other card effects.


----------



## SaLX

Unofficial new modded PAX drivers for both the Z, Zx and the ZxR.
  
 SBZ, SBZx:
http://www.hardwareheaven.com/pax-drivers/223162-pax_sbz_cd_l13_1_00_22_2013_v1-00-official-live.html#post1493103
  
 SB ZxR:
http://www.hardwareheaven.com/pax-drivers/223163-pax_sbzxr_cd_ld_1_00_22_2013_v1-00-official-live-driver-does-work-now.html#post1493104


----------



## Anarion

Don't as what I think about his so called modified drivers....


----------



## SaLX

What's wrong with them Anarion?


----------



## benbenkr

salx said:


> Unofficial new modded PAX drivers for both the Z, Zx and the ZxR.
> 
> SBZ, SBZx:
> http://www.hardwareheaven.com/pax-drivers/223162-pax_sbz_cd_l13_1_00_22_2013_v1-00-official-live.html#post1493103
> ...


 
  
 All he does is actually tweak the .ini files, of which you can do on your own.
 He doesn't even own an SBZ/ZxR to begin with, IINM he said so in one of his other topics.
  
 He's got a reputation of weird sounding drivers since the X-Fi days. Credit to him of course because he was the only one besides Daniel_K which fixed the horrendous, system-breaking Creative X-Fi drivers in the older days.
  
 Then he has all these weird fancy way of naming his tweaks... Pure Tweak, Smooth Tweak, Softer tweak, DeepBass, SharpMids, CleanMids, clean this clean that... wth, I don't even...


----------



## DJINFERNO806

LOL^ this!
  
 This is why I never recommended them on here.  They will not fix stability or big issues from the sock drivers as they are just ini tweaks.
  
 I even said in the overclock forums that I dont recommend them since the author doesnt even own the hardware and sais there are probably bugs.  yaa...nooo..
  
 Gone are the days of full x-fi custom drivers.  Creative hasn't released(and probably never will) the source code for the z drivers.  Without it, there's not much more you can do except eq tweaks and profile changes.  Robert was always known to be a basshead so his drivers will reflect that taste in their tweaks.  Personally I dont like my sound being messed with unless I DO IT.


----------



## Evshrug

salx said:


> Not meaning to be in anyway contentious, but Creative sent me this just now:
> 
> Should I mail them back and tell them that they are wrong; screw up even?




Misleading and confusing email reply, but even if the guy doesn't know what he's saying, at least he's not cussing.


----------



## SaLX

Evshrug - yes of course you are right. Apologies.
  
 Don't think we should let them off the hook though. _Truly_ appalling advice. I wanted a definitive answer as to headphone mode/digital out officially from Creative. FYI and BTW all employees at Creative are called 'John'. Like _all_ of them.
  


> Actually no John. I believe you have made a number of mistakes that are
> misleading. No offence mate (you've been very helpful) but if you could
> kindly respond to these questions from your previous email:
> 
> ...


 
 ***EDIT*** Am suitably chastised - shouldn't have been so rude


----------



## Evshrug

^ I mean, I'm not trying to police you or anything. I'm in tech support, so... I immediately think about how some days can feel like hell, especially when a customer starts to get upset. That said, he gave bad support, and hopefully he takes your feedback as an opportunity to improve.

We know why they're all named "John," it's usually because we'd have a hard time pronouncing their real name from India... unless they're just trying to stay anonymous so they don't have individual accountability. I always tell people my name.

Makes me think about the other way we use the nickname "Johns"...


----------



## watsaname

I don't know if anyone really cares about Alchemy with Source games, but I am currently testing it out in Black Mesa. I am not sure if it is working as intended. It seems like the audio is grabbed by Alchemy as SBX surround is turned off upon entering the game, and turned back on as soon as quitting the game. The issue I am having with it is that any directional audio outside of a ~30 degree cone front of you is almost muted and directional audio is not great. When I turn alchemy off via the command "snd_legacy_surround 0" I go into my creative control panel and turn on the SBX surround and it sounds much better volume and direction.
  
Black Mesa with ALchemy working.
  
Black Mesa with SBX Surround.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Sal, 

I'll try to get my daughter board hooked in this weekend and run some tests if you'd like to add to feg's confirmation about optical out and hrtf modes.


----------



## SaLX

DJ - I feel mean, especially after your comments about support staff. He was only trying to help and although I was courteous to him during our exchanges, pointing out his errors like that was pretty rough of me.
  
 If you've the time to drop in your DB then that would be great - thanks


----------



## Evshrug

^ SaLX,
What did DJ say?
IMO, you didn't actually cuss at HIM, so you respected him as a human being, but tech support knowledge is/was his job and he is supposed to represent a reliable source of info. If he didn't know, he had several avenues at his disposal to find out, theoretically more than you.

Specifying that his help wasn't helpful/clear and seemed irrelevant to the issue was actually helpful of you, although the funny part is that actually specifying a person's shortcomings can make that person feel worse than you getting frustrating and using "rubber stamp" cussing. But it's part of his job, he'll either get over it and better himself because of it, or honestly he might be weary and just ignore it. Support is a very wearying job.

[delete personal story about a friend who cussed in video games] I found that people listen to you and more when you include the positive benefit to a critique, for example "I was asking about outputting headphone surround processing from the SB-Z, I don't see how mic input on the SB-Z could be a solution. I do appreciate you spending time to find ways to help me, maybe we could find a solution in less time if you consult a peer, superior, database; meanwhile I'll ask the community on Head-Fi and test my gear, and I'll let you know for future reference if I find an answer for myself."

It's easier to guide someone the right way than to list off all the wrong ways.


----------



## Radical_53

They may not even know any better, or may not even have better reference material. Companies are trying to cut costs at every corner so they'll be fine with customer reps who can answer 90% of the questions. Stuff that is written in the manual, for example. Quite often it's down to the individual rep, and his interest in his job, to find those "hidden" answers. It's nothing he'd get from any of his company trainings.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Lol I said what?

I'm confused :s


----------



## Anarion

djinferno806 said:


> LOL^ this!
> 
> This is why I never recommended them on here.  They will not fix stability or big issues from the sock drivers as they are just ini tweaks.
> 
> ...


Yep. He basically messes with EQ and claims that is offers better sound quality (and some OMG BASSS!!!1111 people get fooled). I think he even claims better performance too. As far as I know he has never done anything other than tweaked the ini a bit and copied some newer DLL's from new drivers for older cards if they worked. By the looks of it "Rob's drivers" are more like fix and break something that doesn't need fixing. Also yeah, I don't think he even own Z/Zx/ZxR cards.

Daniel_K actually fixes stuff that are broken. While those are usually ini and registry fixes too mixed with new dll's from new drivers, he doesn't speak nonsense about them.


----------



## PurpleAngel

watsaname said:


> Didn't Asus drop support for their Xonar cards, basically making everyone rely on 3rd party drivers for it to function well?


 

 On Asus's website there are sound card drivers updates that are less then a month old, so can't see how anyone could say Asus stopped supporting their sound cards.
 But I myself do prefer to use the third drivers "Unified Xonar Drivers".


----------



## benbenkr

anarion said:


> Yep. He basically messes with EQ and claims that is offers better sound quality (and some OMG BASSS!!!1111 people get fooled). I think he even claims better performance too. As far as I know he has never done anything other than tweaked the ini a bit and copied some newer DLL's from new drivers for older cards if they worked. By the looks of it "Rob's drivers" are more like fix and break something that doesn't need fixing. Also yeah, I don't think he even own Z/Zx/ZxR cards.
> 
> Daniel_K actually fixes stuff that are broken. While those are usually ini and registry fixes too mixed with new dll's from new drivers, he doesn't speak nonsense about them.


 
  
 And you know the funny part is that people actually seem to "hear" better quality from each driver version to the next, akin to that of extra performance from a old GPU driver to a newer one... whatever, as long as this Rob guy doesn't go around charging for his drivers and making himself entitled to be Creative's saving grace.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

benbenkr said:


> And you know the funny part is that people actually seem to "hear" better quality from each driver version to the next, akin to that of extra performance from a old GPU driver to a newer one... whatever, as long as this Rob guy doesn't go around charging for his drivers and making himself entitled to be Creative's saving grace.


----------



## Fegefeuer

You know, I once installed a PAX driver to a X-Fi Fatality with the big i/o module attached to it because I thought it would maybe clear the driver resets. I didn't know by then that PAX was just about EQing but it was more annoyance and desperation (I hate complete new installations). You don't wanna know what terrifying dangerous thing happened during installation.....
  
 Good to careful and not have headphones on during any sound card driver install that checks outputs, gain etc.... Sounds ridiculous but it proved to be pretty clever.


----------



## SaLX

Sorry for banging on about this but I'd not seen this before (has anybody? Did I miss it somehow? Is it new?):
  
http://support.creative.com/kb/ShowArticle.aspx?sid=121466
  
 This could've answered a lot of questions that have been asked here previously. The one thing it specifically doesn't answer (and I'm thinking about your average Joe looking on Creative's Knowledgebase for answers) is, as we now know, the user you can _then_ go on to select to output in "headphone mode" via Toslink. An extra screen illustrating this would've been good.
  
 Until a few days a go, I never realised that in the speaker drop down box you could select headphones as well, or "Kopfhorers" 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 . When people say yes it works in headphone mode, I hope they've not been meaning this? Not that you want to by all accounts, seeing as Speakers mode doesn't do HRTF well - but why put it in? (Image taken from the Recon3D CP):
  

  
 And thanks all for putting up with me.


----------



## Anarion

You can select it but guess what happens to the headphone/speaker switch (and line out sound) then?


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Ya the drop down is the same thing as that quick switch on top. The quick switch just switches from headphone mode to your last known "speaker" mode whether that was 5.1 or stereo or stereo direct. Just a more convenient way instead of going through a list.


----------



## SaLX

Ahhhhhhhhhh. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Many thanks Anarion and DJ!


----------



## rjjasick

I was just about to pick up one of the Z series so I can drive my newly acquired DT990 Pros. I was reading on another site about a bunch of driver issues with the Z's. Do any of you guys have that issue? My PC will primarily be for gaming and currently have an older X-Fi Titanium Fatality.


----------



## Axaion

only issue i have is that the headphone port, when set to headphones, is 5.1, and will upmix stereo to 5.1 even if its not supposed to.. other than that, rock solid.
  
 however, dont even try to use linux with them - from what i heard.


----------



## benbenkr

rjjasick said:


> I was just about to pick up one of the Z series so I can drive my newly acquired DT990 Pros. I was reading on another site about a bunch of driver issues with the Z's. Do any of you guys have that issue? My PC will primarily be for gaming and currently have an older X-Fi Titanium Fatality.


 
  
 You know, as bad as Creative was with the X-fi drivers... their Z drivers like on an entirely different level. Sure the Z drivers aren't really fail-proof either but it is mostly stable for the most part. Get it.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Ya I don't read many driver issues with the z series. Of course there are always those guys over on the creative forums crying about instabity and its just their PC that's fubar'd...

Axaion has that upmixing bug that won't go away. Others might have it too without noticing it. Its odd.


----------



## Axaion

Yeap, cept that damn bug its pretty much perfect, specially coming from a Xonar DX.


----------



## Evshrug

I bought an upgrade version of Win8 Pro after downloading the preview version last year, installed it once then a clean install again when shockingly all 3 of my hard drives got corrupted and needed refirmatted. Only problem, I put win8 preview on an IDE drive I salvaged and adapted to a SATA port, and I haven't been able to put it on my SSD drive that would be much faster and (it seems) less likely to develop a glitch.
Anybody know if an upgrade version of Win8 (which I can confirm is able to perform a full install from blank) can install on a different harddrive? Or is it locked to install only on one drive, like it can only be registered to work with one motherboard?

Thanks, this is about the only thing holding me back from purchasing a SB-Z: a speedy and reliable system.


----------



## rjjasick

Well I bought a Z. Sadly I won't be able to see how the new cans sound with the Z compared to the old setup with a Razer Tiamet 7.1 until Sunday evening.


----------



## SaLX

Got an official reply back from Creative re: headphone mode via Optical/TosLink (not that I doubted any of you by any means - official confirmation is always a _good thing_, especially for people looking for a quick answer here on Head-Fi). Wasn't expecting anything back from them but here you go:
  


> I am sorry to hear that there seems to be a lot of confusions here.  From your first email, the way I understand your statement is simple and answer is straight-forward. Even if you plug your  headphone over your DAC connected from the soundcard via optical, our software control panel still allows you to toggle between Speakers and Headphone.  In other words, you are not stuck between these modes. There is no such limitation as far as operation is concerned in the software.
> 
> The only interesting factor with this soundcard is the ability to play simultaneous from two sources, your analog and digital, and  that option is located within the SBX Pro Studio software.  Audio is processed using "Play Stereo-Mix." which you also mentioned.
> Best Regards,
> ...


 
  
 When I get the readies (grr.. damned bills), I'll be ordering up an Audio-GD 11.32 or 15.32 with an OEM SBZ. (Purple -when are you going to write up a mini review of your 15?? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 )


----------



## watsaname

So I take it that they are saying Headphone Mode will work over Optical. I don't get his second paragraph though. He is saying that you can use the line in and the optical in at the same time? You couldn't do that before?


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Ya still a bit of a confusing answer.

But regardless I'm glad that people can buy a cheap sbz and use optical out to some serious hardware


----------



## SaLX

Watsaname - yeah this is official confirmation.
  
 The second paragraph is, I'm pretty sure, referring to the old X-FI's isn't it? Didn't want to ask any more questions of them. No way.
  
http://support.creative.com/kb/ShowArticle.aspx?sid=107538 ??


----------



## watsaname

I see, so that means that you will basically HAVE to have "Play Stereo-Mix" enabled when going through spdif for it to work. It scares me that it says that there maybe latency when going through spdif, which could mean gaming and movie watching will be a butchered experience.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Ya if you dont enable "Play Stereo Mix", it wont send the 2 channel pcm with effects over digital.  Instead it will default to using an encoder for 5.1(upmixed or not).
  
 I think the latency issues were only seen on z's that used an encoder am I right?  Because that's the only other situation wihere the soundcore would have to do more work.  Otherwise whatever PCM stream it was going to send to the DAC, can just be split and sent to the optical out too.


----------



## Fegefeuer

I told you guys how it works.


----------



## Solarium

Will the SB-Z OEM version (without the EMI protecting outer shell) be much of a degrade from the retail version? How likely am I to hear static noise?
  
 Also, I'm currently using a configuration of X-Fi Titanium (non-HD) Fatal1ty --> Fiio E11 --> Sennheiser HD-598. I'm thinking of upgrading to either the SB-Z and return the E11, or upgrading the amp to Schiit Magni. Which of the 3 configurations would offer better SQ, or would it be pretty much similar? BTW, the HD598's are only 50ohm headphones so should be easy to drive.
  
 1. X-Fi Titanium (non-HD) Fatal1ty --> Fiio E11 --> Sennheiser HD-598
 2. Sound Blaster Z --> (no additional external amp) --> Sennheiser HD-598
 3. X-Fi Titanium (non-HD) Fatal1ty --> Schiit Magni --> Sennheiser HD-598


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Your first point, some report static with the oem card, others dont. I guess it all depends on how much emi your PC has going on inside. 

Question is why do you want the sbz? Sq will be better as it uses a newer DAC when compared to the titanium.

But the x-fi will offer better support for older games. 

Which amp to use depends on how much power you need or will need. The magni would be my choice over the e11. 

But for budgets sake, just get the z and use the 598's directly with it. Then down the road add the magni


----------



## Solarium

Main reason I want to upgrade from E11, is that I want a more permanent desktop PC solution, without using something that's portable and requires charging.
  
 I don't play much older games, mainly newer ones like CSGO, bioshock inifinity, battlefield 3/4 mainstream ones, so as long as SBZ has good driver support it should be fine.
  
 Why do you think I still would need the Magni after I upgrade to SBZ? I thought the SBZ can drive up to 600 ohm so the 50 ohm from HD598 should be no problem right? Does the Magni offer any further SQ improvements if the headphones are already driven properly by the SBZ amp?


----------



## DJINFERNO806

The sbz is marketed to power 600 ohm headphones but that means nothing.

In reality the headphone amp can barely power most 250ohm cans. You need to look at the spec sheets to figure out the power delivery. I think its like 120 ish milliwatts into 250 ohms. I dont remember.The magni will improve this issue tremendously if you ever want to venture into higher end headphones that require more power.

The other reason is impedance mismatching. The 1/8th rule. Look it up. The sbz has a 22 ohm output impedance, that's pretty high to use with low impedance headphones. Even yours right now. So its reported that that would give you all kinds of distortions. Add the magni to the headphone out and this would alleviate that issue if you wanted. Its output impedence is less than 0.1 ohms I believe.

Anyway this is all suggestion, if it sounds good to you then be happy.


----------



## Solarium

The thing is, would spending $200 more right now to upgrade to both the SBZ and the Magni make much of a difference from my current Titanium + E11? I don't plan on upgrading to any better headphones in the next 5 years btw, as I use my heaphones mainly at night when my neighbors are more vigilant in issuing noise complaints


----------



## DJINFERNO806

The z alone should be fine for you then with your headphones. The impedence mismatch is just something a lot of people seem to notice. However all my headphones are in the 150+ ohm range so I didnt have any issues directly that I could explain.

Maybe some of the members can chime in on how the 558's or other lower impedance headphones sound on the z. Is the mismatch that bad?


----------



## benbenkr

Some headphones are not affected by impedance mismatch. But till a point, yes the HD558/598 doesn't sound that nice directly out of the SBZ.
 One may feel that the extra bloat in bass is actually a good thing for the rather bass shy HD558/598, but problem is that when the mid-bass hits hard then distortion occurs. Not ear-tearing distortions obviously, but enough to annoy IMO.
  
 On the other hand, the 32ohm Fidelio X1 doesn't suffer any distortion but made a lot of the details way too bloaty. Mids were quite blanketed.
 Again, some people may like it as it gives the illusion of a deeper bass presentation but I personally don't. I like my bass clean and refined, with energy and impact.
  
 One last thing (though it isn't a huge issue), adding an external amp through the headphone out of the SBZ means double amping. So if you are going that route, make sure to get an amp with as low as possible on THD and as clean as a signal accross the frequency range.


----------



## Solarium

This impedance mismatch thing with the HD598's kind of steers me into getting a Asus Xonar instead. Anyone know if they also have the impedance mismatch with the HD598's. Also will the Xonar's CMSS-3D software emulation sound as good as Creative's hardware version? I'm also assuming that the Xonar's can drive the 50 ohm headphones without any issues correct?


----------



## DJINFERNO806

From what I remember the xonar stx has a 10 ohm output impedance, same as zxr.

Dgx has about a 10 ohm output according to most people on here.

And the dsx and dx have about a 100 ohm output impedance apparently.

Asus cards aren't going to make it better if your worried about impedance mismatch.


----------



## Solarium

I know it's kind of out of my price range, but how does the Xonar STX compare to the SBZ? I like the idea of having both the headphone output as well as the line-out so I don't have unplug my headphones every time I want to listen to my speakers. But the idea of EAX 5.0 software emulation bothers me and I'm not sure if it supports a lot of recent games given its 2009 release date.
  
 Also, I heard somewhere that the Titanium HD has better sound quality than SBZ. Anyone can comment on this?


----------



## benbenkr

Asus Xonar's Audio GDX thingy which simulates EAX doesn't.... work. At least, it never did for me since I was using the Uni Xonar drivers. The stock official Asus drivers were just too unstable to even care about using anything.
  
 As for virtual surround, Dolby Headphones is fine... I like it as much as SBX. I can freely switch between the both anytime and wouldn't have an issue with it.
  
 Anyways yeah, going to a Xonar STX isn't going to help with the impedance mismatching either though it certainly wouldn't be as bad. I had a HD558 connected directly to a FiiO E09k previously which also had 10ohm output impedance (which actually has the same headphone amp as the Xonar STX) and it wasn't bad. For one, there weren't distortions and although the bass did feel a little uncontrolled, it at least didn't cloud the mids of my HD558.


----------



## PurpleAngel

solarium said:


> This impedance mismatch thing with the HD598's kind of steers me into getting a Asus Xonar instead. Anyone know if they also have the impedance mismatch with the HD598's. Also will the Xonar's CMSS-3D software emulation sound as good as Creative's hardware version? I'm also assuming that the Xonar's can drive the 50 ohm headphones without any issues correct?


 

 Looking at getting the Asus Xonar Essence STX?
 You could get the Asus Xonar DX or D1 (used $60) and the Schiit Magni headphone amplifier (new $99).
 The Magni has a headphone output impedance of less then 1-Ohm 
 So you can plug the Magni into the DX/D1 Front Speaker/headphone jack and get Headphone Surround Sound, thru the Magni.
 The Xonar's GX software emulation of EAX 5.0 seems to be hit and miss (from what I've heard).
 The Xonar DX, D1 and STX (& ST) all use the same C-Media CMI8788 audio processor.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

^This.
  
 DX + Magni = Great combo that will run you cheaper than an STX/ZXR. 
  
*But may god have mercy on your soul if you don't at least use the unified drivers...*
  
 serious....


----------



## Solarium

purpleangel said:


> Looking at getting the Asus Xonar Essence STX?
> You could get the Asus Xonar DX or D1 (used $60) and the Schiit Magni headphone amplifier (new $99).
> The Magni has a headphone output impedance of less then 1-Ohm
> So you can plug the Magni into the DX/D1 Front Speaker/headphone jack and get Headphone Surround Sound, thru the Magni.
> ...


 
 The STX is actually only $170 on amazon, while as the DX is $80 and Magni is $100. The STX also have 1 plug for headphones and 1 plug for my speakers so I don't have to switch the plugs on the back every time, which would be a huge bonus. The main reason that I want to upgrade my sound card is to not having to use a headphone amp.
  
 What about the ZXR, would that have lower impedance than the STX? Even with STX's 10-ohm impedance would it really still degrade the 50-ohm headphone SQ that much?


----------



## stv014

The ZxR has an output impedance of 40 Ω according to this test.


----------



## SaLX

stv014 said:


> The ZxR has an output impedance of 40 Ω according to this test.


 
 Whoa!

 This is weird... they didn't do the same test with the STX for comparison, but for their Asus ROG Phoebus review they did (here), they got a result of 10 Ω which is more like it.
  


> _The output impedance of the average in the range of 40 Hz to 15 kHz Ohm: 40.9Ω (ZxR) (compared to 10.7Ω Phoebus sic)._


 
  
 I really don't know if this has any bearing on this: the ZxR results were based on a _Frequency response from 40 Hz to 15 kHz dB_ compared to the Phoebus being based on a _Frequency response range of 20 Hz to 20 kHz dB_. Somebody with a larger brain please explain these values!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  I'm sure that this result is skewed in some form or another.
  
 Also here's stv's posts here on the subject.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Ya that's the first I am hearing about the ZXR having higher than 10 ohm output impedance.
  
 The headphone amplification stage is exactly the same as the STX, so I don't understand why it wouldn't have the same amount of impedance.


----------



## stv014

> The headphone amplification stage is exactly the same as the STX, so I don't understand why it wouldn't have the same amount of impedance.


 
  
 Both cards use a TPA6120A2 based headphone amplifier, however, the resistors that determine the output impedance are not part of the TPA chip. While 10 Ω is common (since it is the minimum recommended by the manufacturer), Creative might have chosen to increase the impedance for whatever reason. In any case, I cannot test it myself, since I do not have the ZxR, but on the Russian page the voltage drop with different loads consistently shows a ~40 Ω output impedance.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Ya I did see on the headphone amp specs page TI recommends 10 ohms. But I don't get what purpose there would be to add more than a 10 ohm resistor. 

Why would you want to decrease the damping factor? Or alienate customers with sub 320 ohm headphones.

Now I'm not very impressed if this is true as even my 250 ohm DT 770s may be subject to distortion. .....


----------



## Fegefeuer

Get an external DAC/AMP with <0,5 Ohm output and be done with it. It's the best setup to avoid any technical shortcomings and it makes your chain universal.


----------



## stv014

djinferno806 said:


> Ya I did see on the headphone amp specs page TI recommends 10 ohms. But I don't get what purpose there would be to add more than a 10 ohm resistor.


 
  
 TI recommends that as the minimum, but also notes that it can be increased up to 100 Ω if necessary. If Creative did use 40 Ω, then it might have been because of some shortcoming of their implementation. However, it seems manufacturers often simply do not care much about output impedance, and it does not have too much marketing value to the casual consumer either (it is usually not shown in the specs, and is not tested in most reviews that use a simple RMAA loopback). E-Mu (basically the same company as Creative) "pro audio" devices typically have an output impedance of a few tens of Ω, as does the previous flagship SB card, the Titanium HD.
  


djinferno806 said:


> Now I'm not very impressed if this is true as even my 250 ohm DT 770s may be subject to distortion. .....


 
  
 I ran some tests on the DT880 Pro (250 Ω) recently, which, while not the same headphone, does use more or less the same drivers. I compared 10 Ω vs. 110 Ω output impedance, and the latter caused frequency response deviations of 0.5 dB, and a distortion increase of up to 2 dB. With 40 Ω, the effect would probably be reduced accordingly by a factor of slightly more than 2. So, it would not be major. By the way, if you have a splitter, you could also test the output impedance of the ZxR just to be sure.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Ya that would be nice but I'm still going to need a z for its features.

Hmm I guess selling the zxr for an OEM z and magni modi combo would be the best option....

But my question now is how much better sounding is the burr brown DAC compared to the modi? Thats my main concern.

EDIT: nvm, the modi doesn't have optical in, not a viable option for using a z with.


----------



## Fegefeuer

They won't do much of a difference imo. Purely on the output impedance ok, but SQ and drive isn't really far away. I'd get something from Asus, Yulong, Matrix, Anedio and have something for 10 years+. Gaming on PC over ten years is quite a difference in terms of money if you compare.


----------



## stv014

Regarding the measurement of the output impedance, the basic idea is to measure the output voltage of the device unloaded, and then (without changing anything else) with a known load connected. From the reduction of voltage with the load, the output impedance can be calculated as Rload * ((Vnoload / Vload) - 1). Therefore, you need:
  
 - a splitter (1 female and 2 male 1/8" jacks) or other suitable cable to be able to drive some load and measure the voltage at the same time
 - some kind of test load; ideally, a resistor, but even a headphone can be suitable, if tested at a frequency where it has mostly resistive impedance (like ~2 kHz for most full size dynamic headphones)
 - something to measure the voltage with. It can be a cheap digital multimeter (note that some of these only work reliably over a limited frequency range), or a sound card line input, which you should already have. It is not necessary to be able to measure absolute levels accurately, since only a ratio of voltages will be needed
  
 In case you only have the splitter, and no resistors or DMM, connect the two male jacks to the headphone output of the card to be tested, and the line input of the card used for recording. Make sure that the mixer settings are correct for loopback recording, and that you can play a test tone at a reasonable (not very low or high) volume. Generate a sine wave at 2 kHz with some suitable software, and create a loopback recording of it, with and without the headphones connected to the female jack of the splitter. Use any audio editor of your choice to measure the RMS levels of the recorded tones. You can then calculate the output impedance with the above formula (Rload = the impedance of your headphones).


----------



## Solarium

Won't using Modi's DAC bypass the Z's DAC, so you won't get any of Creative EAX/3D 5.0 effects?
  
 What determines the impedance output, the DAC or amplifier?


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Stv014, thanks for the info on how to do this, its invaluable buddy. I probably most likely wont go through all the trouble of testing it to that extent but I'm going to see if I can borrow an amp to hook up to the zxr and listen for differences. 

 But most likely I'll be selling the zxr anyway in favour of an external solution since it will work for console gaming too. I just need to find a reasonably priced DAC with optical in. The ones you suggested or a bit pricey. I need to make an investment in long term I guess lol.

@Solarium

Ya the modi doesn't have optical that's why its not an option for me anymore. Its USB audio device. The bifrost has optical but its also $350 instead of $99...

And the output impedance is determined by the last part of the audio loop before headphones in this case the headphone amp.


----------



## SaLX

@DJ: I've been looking around for something that bit better than an ZxR or STX with optical input: _It's just that I can't source a better setup anywhere for an equivalent price._ Maybe.. hate to say it, but hang on to your ZxR unless you have cash to burn.
  
 Basically: OEM SBZ > *SPDIF/Toslink *> DAC/AMP .. having a hard time finding any decent DAC/AMP which would offer better performance than the two soundcards listed above, especially when you consider the price (volume marketing from Creative/Asus). Feg helpfully suggested some seriously expensive kit like the Yulong (probably he means the D100 MKII - Sabre32), but it has way too many features which I'd never use, no matter how attractive it is - also it's way too expensive to import to the UK.
  
 The Sabre32 DAC seems to be the very best route for a decent and in your face upgrade over the STX/ZxR whilst keeping the Sound Blaster OEM ($60) for the EQ/Surround/Microphone options. One thing though - it's a significant jump in price. I'm circling the NFB Sabre32 DAC 11.32. Also there's the Audio-GD Wolfson 15.32 which is cheaper but warmer. Both are roughly a 3rd or more expensive than these two soundcards. Both are, by all accounts a huge bang for buck purchase when compared to far more expensive gear._ BTW Feg.. the new models don't suffer the treble grain you mentioned_. _Any chance you can comment on this?? _Sorry.. know this is veering way off topic. Anyway.
  


> _*Another option is this:*_
> 
> Buy the SBZ OEM for games.
> Buy an extra USB DAC/AMP of your choice for everything else if you want to go for _really_ good music. This will just involve moving your headphone cables' jack around when you want to switch. You'd have to also swap your output in Windows Sound Control Panel, but this is uber easy.
> ...


 
  
 The above is completely and utterly useless to anybody wanting a soundcard to go with their headset and be done with it. If any of you have read through this thread you will have seen why some of us are getting tangled up and hitting brick walls when looking at these options for the new SBZ's.


----------



## benbenkr

djinferno806 said:


> Stv014, thanks for the info on how to do this, its invaluable buddy. I probably most likely wont go through all the trouble of testing it to that extent but I'm going to see if I can borrow an amp to hook up to the zxr and listen for differences.
> 
> But most likely I'll be selling the zxr anyway in favour of an external solution since it will work for console gaming too. I just need to find a reasonably priced DAC with optical in. The ones you suggested or a bit pricey. I need to make an investment in long term I guess lol.
> 
> ...


 
  
 FiiO E17 + E09k, doesn't even come close to $350. Settles all issue between console and PC usage, it's what I'm using now and I think it's the most reasonable setup without breaking the bank.


----------



## Solarium

How about SBZ OEM + E11 amp, will that provide low impedance output with the HD598?
  
 Honestly I don't know why ppl keep recommending Magni over E11, I don't care about having more power to drive higher ohm headphones, since I will unlikely to upgrade my headphones in the next 5 years.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

First off thanks Ben and Sal for the opinions and suggestions.

I figure a magni/bifrost would be a decent side grade from zxr. I get a pretty good DAC with USB and optical and enough power from the amp if I ever want to get higher impedance headphones. But this is my assumption by looking at the DAC specs. 

Maybe someone else has a more educated opinion on the bifrost.

I didn't want to go with a fiio combo as it wouldn't give me enough power for my beyers at 250 ohms. Also I couldn't find enough info on what DAC IC is inside the e17.

I know its difficult to find an external solution for same price as zxr and I'm OK with spending max $500 for a decent combo. Just don't have experience with many external units. And I definitely need a z at least since I want sbx surround for gaming.

@solarium,

Yup it only has a 0.3 ohm output impedance. Should be fine. Not sure how the double amping will affect the signal though.


----------



## benbenkr

djinferno806 said:


> First off thanks Ben and Sal for the opinions and suggestions.
> 
> I figure a magni/bifrost would be a decent side grade from zxr. I get a pretty good DAC with USB and optical and enough power from the amp if I ever want to get higher impedance headphones. But this is my assumption by looking at the DAC specs.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Well the thing is, if you were to go for the Bifrost, you may be able to use SBX with it but not (I'm assuming) with a console in which I think you would wanna use DH then? Neither Mixamp nor TB DSS has optical out. So the Bifrost DAC is then mitigated.
  
 The E17 uses a WM8740, which is comparable to the Xonar STX's TI PCM1792A. I understand your dillema though, because just recently I was trying to decide between a FiiO E09k + E17 combo or a Schiit M&M, or even an Aune T1. At the end I just stuck with the FiiO though, which I think is enough power for many cans up to 250ohms even.
  
  


solarium said:


> How about SBZ OEM + E11 amp, will that provide low impedance output with the HD598?
> 
> Honestly I don't know why ppl keep recommending Magni over E11, I don't care about having more power to drive higher ohm headphones, since I will unlikely to upgrade my headphones in the next 5 years.


 
  
 That isn't bad for a budget line up to be quite honest. Many people recommend the Magni over the E11 is because well, the Magni is a better amp in the long run.
 The E11 was quite an unrefined portable amp from FiiO, was one of their first forray into powerful portable amps. If you have the money, the E12 would do you better though as it nearly rivals the E09k in power and in turn, the Magni as well.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Ya see the e17 would be fine for me since it has optical in BUT my biggest quirk with it is the battery power if you don't use it with the e09k which I don't want.

Initially I didn't want the e09k because I had read somewhere that it barely gave out enough power for 300 ish ohm headphones. But now it seems it can supply 80mw at 600 ohm from further research. Seeing as it uses same TI headamp as stx/zxr, this seems plausible.

However the other reason I don't want to use it is because of the same 10 ohm output impedence as the stx. So this is half the reason for me to rather get the magni.

And I wouldn't care about not having hrtf too much for consoles because that's only 5-10% of gaming for me. The rest is in PC. But using my headphones with my avr is painful and disgusting... Plus I could actually watch beautiful blurays with headphones at night with lossless sound not being borked by my avr's abyssmal headphone port.

Thanks for the info though. 

I was also looking at the DAC magic 100 as its currently $200 locally. Reviews seem iffy though.


----------



## Solarium

benbenkr said:


> That isn't bad for a budget line up to be quite honest. Many people recommend the Magni over the E11 is because well, the Magni is a better amp in the long run.
> The E11 was quite an unrefined portable amp from FiiO, was one of their first forray into powerful portable amps. If you have the money, the E12 would do you better though as it nearly rivals the E09k in power and in turn, the Magni as well.


 
  
 If I connect an amp (like Magni or E11) to a sound card already with a built in amp (like SBZ), would double amping somehow degrade the sound quality, or interfere with the different output impedance?
  
 Would it be more preferable to get a sound card without an amp (I'm thinking the Titanium-HD) with good 3D gaming capabilities and a decent DAC, THEN connect it to a Magni?


----------



## NamelessPFG

solarium said:


> If I connect an amp (like Magni or E11) to a sound card already with a built in amp (like SBZ), would double amping somehow degrade the sound quality, or interfere with the different output impedance?
> Would it be more preferable to get a sound card without an amp (I'm thinking the Titanium-HD) with good 3D gaming capabilities and a decent DAC, THEN connect it to a Magni?


 
  
 Let me put it this way: even when you connect something to a line-out, you're already "double-amping". EVERY analog output is amplified to some extent. The question is whether the analog signal is clean, with a high SNR.
  
 When you feed an analog signal into an amplifier, the amp more or less filters out the audio signal from everything else, then amplifies that signal. That's why you don't have to worry about output impedance for anything other than the last device in the chain.
  
 Personally, I prefer discrete components for everything; the more that's integrated, the more you have to replace when you want to upgrade. However, if you plan on getting a dedicated external DAC, then you don't really need a card on the level of the X-Fi Titanium HD or ZxR; you can just get a cheap X-Fi Titanium and run S/PDIF to the external DAC with no quality loss, since you're bypassing the sound card's own DAC anyway, and the more expensive cards' primary improvements are in the DAC and amp sections.


----------



## Solarium

namelesspfg said:


> Let me put it this way: even when you connect something to a line-out, you're already "double-amping". EVERY analog output is amplified to some extent. The question is whether the analog signal is clean, with a high SNR.
> 
> When you feed an analog signal into an amplifier, the amp more or less filters out the audio signal from everything else, then amplifies that signal. That's why you don't have to worry about output impedance for anything other than the last device in the chain.
> 
> Personally, I prefer discrete components for everything; the more that's integrated, the more you have to replace when you want to upgrade. However, if you plan on getting a dedicated external DAC, then you don't really need a card on the level of the X-Fi Titanium HD or ZxR; you can just get a cheap X-Fi Titanium and run S/PDIF to the external DAC with no quality loss, since you're bypassing the sound card's own DAC anyway, and the more expensive cards' primary improvements are in the DAC and amp sections.


 
 I don't plan on getting another DAC besides the sound card. Plus doesn't using an external DAC bypass the sound card's 3D positioning? I plan to do one of the following:
  
 (Sound card/DAC --> external amp --> headphones)
  
 1. Sound Blaster Z OEM --> E11 or Magni --> HD 598
 2. Titanium-HD --> E11 or Magni --> HD 598
 3. Xonar DX --> E11 or Magni --> HD 598
  
 Now just to choose a good valued sound card for 3D audio and DAC, and an amp that's sufficient for 50-ohm headphones with low output impedance, both with a budget of approx $100-150.


----------



## watsaname

solarium said:


> I don't plan on getting another DAC besides the sound card. Plus doesn't using an external DAC bypass the sound card's 3D positioning? I plan to do one of the following:
> 
> (Sound card/DAC --> external amp --> headphones)
> 
> ...


 
 It is understood by from this thread, that if you get a DAC that has optical in, you can still use the Z's SBX headphone surround for 5.1 audio->2.0 pcm.


----------



## SaLX

From NwAvGuy:
  
_"Sadly the E11 cannot operate while external power is connected via the USB jack. That means it’s impossible to use it as a regular desktop amp as the battery will end up dead and you can’t listen to it while it’s charging"._


----------



## DJINFERNO806

solarium said:


> I don't plan on getting another DAC besides the sound card. Plus doesn't using an external DAC bypass the sound card's 3D positioning? I plan to do one of the following:
> 
> (Sound card/DAC --> external amp --> headphones)
> 
> ...


 
 Yup whatsaname is correct,
  
 It was confirmed on here multiple times that through optical out, you still get SBX surround.  Which SBX surround mode is decided when you select speaker/headphone in the z control panel.  So select headphone mode and then select mix 2 channel/stereo audio option(not sure whats its called, i forgot) from one of the tabs.  Optical will send out the same PCM stereo signal that goes to the DAC.  Free of dolby or dts encoding and upmixing.
  
  
 In reference to your options above;
  
 TiHD out is your best option for SQ due to the DAC.  I would say the Z is not too far behind but the headphone amp imho is a bottleneck to the that really good DAC.  Most z users will tell you it sounds better from line out like night and day.  Now I am not sure if thats due to the impedence mismatch or the lower SNR of the amp(109db) or just some other factors.  Maybe both, but either way that's something to keep in mind.
  
 DG is your cheapest but also worst SQ of the options.  
  
 So at the end of the day ask yourself, you want the best SQ or the Z's SBX surround or you want to go the cheapest route with the DG?


----------



## Solarium

djinferno806 said:


> Yup whatsaname is correct,
> 
> It was confirmed on here multiple times that through optical out, you still get SBX surround.  Which SBX surround mode is decided when you select speaker/headphone in the z control panel.  So select headphone mode and then select mix 2 channel/stereo audio option(not sure whats its called, i forgot) from one of the tabs.  Optical will send out the same PCM stereo signal that goes to the DAC.  Free of dolby or dts encoding and upmixing.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I thought the Z has a better DAC than the TiHD. I'm not sure why is the TiHD so expensive right now, it's $150 on amazon for a new one and on ebay they're selling old ones for all over $130's some even $200's. At that price I may just get a SBZ OEM for $50 when it goes on sale again.
  
 The thing is, is there even an appreciable difference in SQ upgrading from my Titanium Fatal1ty Pro (with 109 dB playback) to the Z's 116 dB. The whole point of me upgrading in the first place is to NOT having to use a separate headphone amp (and possibly connect my speakers AND headphones to the sound card at the same time).
  
 Having to spend $177 on my headphones already, thinking it as a pretty big investment for something I use only at night, and now realizing that I will have to shell out more for a new sound card and amp, makes me kind of hesitant unless I'm getting a lot of bang for the buck here. I just got into reading bunch of different ways of enhancing my SQ though sound cards, amps, DAC's, all of which are relatively new concepts for me. I'm not totally crazy about having the absolute best SQ on my headphones, especially when I use my speakers almost exclusive before 8PM.
  
 That being said, I'm still looking for new ideas to enhance my SQ, I just bought a ZXR to "try out" from amazon to see whether it really makes a huge difference and worth spending more money than my headphones for something to improve the headphones itself. I do realize having a nice sound card also enhance the SQ on my speakers too though (I'm using Klipsch iFi 2.1's).


----------



## DJINFERNO806

No the zxr and tihd use the same burr brown dac, pcm1794. The z uses the cirrus logic cs4398. 

So if your not crazy about sq for headphones, just use the z and call it a day. And if you find the impedance mismatch an issue add an amp in the future.


----------



## willgobiqu

very inter ,Something tells me they're not bringing back the MIDI synthesizer with customizable SoundFonts, either. That little feature can make 1990s games with MIDI music sound really nice, much more than the usual software Microsoft synth can do.thanks for your sharing.


----------



## Solarium

Do the line-out and headphone out plugs on the ZXR use different DAC's? I'm assuming both use the burr brown DAC?
  
 Also, if the output impedance on the headphone out is higher than I want, couldn't I just plug the headphones (via the external amp) through the line-out instead? Why is there different SNR dB's on the line-out vs the headphone out?
  
 Also, is there also a line-out vs an "amped" headphone out on the SBZ OEM?


----------



## DJINFERNO806

There is only 1 DAC in a card.

Both line outs and headphone outs use it. But for the headphone out, there's also the amp after the DAC which has a different snr.(wouldn't worry too much about this number in the case of zxr)

Anyway yes you can use line outs but like its been mentioned numerous times here, you won't get headphone surround through it.

And yes the z has line out as well in the form of the l/r speaker ports beside headphone port.


----------



## SaLX

The ZxR has extras most of us don't need.
  
 I wonder if I got a SBZ OEM and an external DAC/Amp (or combo, and IT MUST BE connected via SPDIF/Toslink/Optical): Are there any products out there that, _at the very least _are considered to be a sidegrade to the ZxR -  for roughly the equivalent amount of cash? I'm struggling to find anything bar some obscure Chinese imports.
  
 The E17 is not as good a DAC/Amp to kick off with as far as reports here go.
  
 Any suggestions??.


----------



## Solarium

Got my ZXR today, quite impressed with all the extras, though I really have no need sans the ACM to control the headphone volume if I don't have an amp. After turning all the stupid SBX pro studio effects, I can definitely appreciate an improvement of SQ over my old Titanium non-HD. The Burr-Brown DAC has amazing clarity.
  
 I'm not sure how the headphone output supposed to sound like with low impedance headphones, but vs an E11 additional amp, connecting to the ACM directly with my headphones yielded a more muffled sound.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

salx said:


> The ZxR has extras most of us don't need.
> 
> I wonder if I got a SBZ OEM and an external DAC/Amp (or combo, and IT MUST BE connected via SPDIF/Toslink/Optical): Are there any products out there that, _at the very least _are considered to be a sidegrade to the ZxR -  for roughly the equivalent amount of cash? I'm struggling to find anything bar some obscure Chinese imports.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Ya I am pulling my hair out trying to figure this out too.  It seems that the only way to make a decent side grade from the zxr would be to drop $500 minimum on a DAC and amp.
  


solarium said:


> Got my ZXR today, quite impressed with all the extras, though I really have no need sans the ACM to control the headphone volume if I don't have an amp. After turning all the stupid SBX pro studio effects, I can definitely appreciate an improvement of SQ over my old Titanium non-HD. The Burr-Brown DAC has amazing clarity.
> 
> I'm not sure how the headphone output supposed to sound like with low impedance headphones, but vs an E11 additional amp, connecting to the ACM directly with my headphones yielded a more muffled sound.


 
  
 So from the zxr to acm and to headphone it was muffled compared to using the zxr to acm to e11 then to headphone?


----------



## SaLX

Unusual way to do it plugging in your external amp into the ACM. Try plugging your amp into the soundcard directly???


----------



## SaLX

General question - The Creative forums (ok they're crap)...... I've been registered there for over a month and I still can't post. I can't even look at my own profile as I "lack the permissions"????? What hoops am I missing here?. It must be incredibly frustrating for someone who has a problem and goes there expecting to post and finds that he or she can't.


----------



## Solarium

djinferno806 said:


> Ya I am pulling my hair out trying to figure this out too.  It seems that the only way to make a decent side grade from the zxr would be to drop $500 minimum on a DAC and amp.
> 
> 
> So from the zxr to acm and to headphone it was muffled compared to using the zxr to acm to e11 then to headphone?




Yea, it sounded not as clear and heavy on bass when I have my headphones plugged directly into the ACM. When I had ACM --> E11 --> HD598 it sounded much better.

Is there a cheaper alternative than the ZXR to get the Burr-Brown DAC on a sound card? I think currently the most budget way is to get the same sound quality is to get a used/refurb Titanium-HD then attach an external amp to it like the E11 or even Magni.

Btw, is using the Pro Studio the only way to get surround on the headphones using ZXR?


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Do us a favor and ditch the ACM and THEN do the above tests again please Solarium? Let us known what you find?


No the only other cards with that pcm1792/94 dac is the tiHD and st/stx. And trust me you won't get anywhere near the same sound quality using optical to a magni and e11. External quality similar will have to run you into the $400-500+ category most likely.

Yes pro studio is the only way.


----------



## Solarium

Connecting the HD598 via the line-out directly, with the speaker setting under stereo and any SBX Pro Studio effects off, is DEFINITELY better sounding than the headphone out. In fact it's even better sounding than headphone out --> E11 --> HD598. When listening to Norah Jones' "Come Away With Me" album it's by far the best sounding experience I've ever had (I use this album to test out different headphones and amps). I'm not even sure if these headphones need any amplification since I'm using the line-out and at 30/100 windows volume it's sufficient loud enough for me that I wouldn't go higher.
  
 Edit: Just tested line-out --> E11 --> HD598, compared to directly via the line-out without amp, the addition of the E11 makes very little appreciable difference. I can hear a bit more clarity, but it makes the music more "grainy" and "dry"... I'm not sure how to describe it better, but without the amp the music sounds more smooth like flowing water, while with the E11 it feels more dry and grainy. I prefer the HD598 directly out of the line-out more than via the E11 as well. Of course, I'm sure maybe the E11 isn't as good as an amp paired with the Burr-Brown DAC, and you need something better like the Magni.
  
 BTW, does anyone have any experience connecting headphones directly to the Titanium-HD's headphone out vs line-out? Does the TiHD headphone out (without the built-in amp) sound better than the ZXR's with low-ohm headphones like the HD598's? Also, how is the 3D processing of the TiHD different than the Z series, and which is the generally preferred one?


----------



## Radical_53

In combination with my headphones line-out always gave me a weird soundstage, positioning wasn't accurate. This might also have to do with my opamps, OPA2228, that improved positioning/soundstage while using headphone out, but line-out certainly didn't sound right in my case.
  
 I'm having huge issues with disconnects at boot lately though. I've been using the same mainboard for quite a while now, one that has UEFI, just as Windows 8. The issue does seem to get worse though.
 Is it plausible to think the soundcard needs a certain amount of time to "get ready" during boot? I'm not using any of the "super fast boot" options of Win8, as my SSD isn't formatted to use it, but booting still doesn't take very long (to say the least).


----------



## DJINFERNO806

solarium said:


> Connecting the HD598 via the line-out directly, with the speaker setting under stereo and any SBX Pro Studio effects off, is DEFINITELY better sounding than the headphone out. In fact it's even better sounding than headphone out --> E11 --> HD598. When listening to Norah Jones' "Come Away With Me" album it's by far the best sounding experience I've ever had (I use this album to test out different headphones and amps). I'm not even sure if these headphones need any amplification since I'm using the line-out and at 30/100 windows volume it's sufficient loud enough for me that I wouldn't go higher.
> 
> Edit: Just tested line-out --> E11 --> HD598, compared to directly via the line-out without amp, the addition of the E11 makes very little appreciable difference. I can hear a bit more clarity, but it makes the music more "grainy" and "dry"... I'm not sure how to describe it better, but without the amp the music sounds more smooth like flowing water, while with the E11 it feels more dry and grainy. I prefer the HD598 directly out of the line-out more than via the E11 as well. Of course, I'm sure maybe the E11 isn't as good as an amp paired with the Burr-Brown DAC, and you need something better like the Magni.
> 
> BTW, does anyone have any experience connecting headphones directly to the Titanium-HD's headphone out vs line-out? Does the TiHD headphone out (without the built-in amp) sound better than the ZXR's with low-ohm headphones like the HD598's? Also, how is the 3D processing of the TiHD different than the Z series, and which is the generally preferred one?






The tihd doesn't have a headphone amp. But its headphone stage does usually have enough power to drive decent headphones without amping.

The z uses sbx surround, the tihd uses cmss3d. You should Google the 2 and you will get some info.

Im surprised you find it better sounding, the line out on my zxr destroys the sound with rediculous distortion and my bass basically takes a holiday and my highs go for a climb... Literally. Pierced my ears I almost blacked out lol... It was bad. And considering its got a minimum output impedance of 100 ohms, it makes sense.


----------



## stv014

djinferno806 said:


> The tihd doesn't have a headphone amp. But its headphone stage does usually have enough power to drive decent headphones without amping.


 
   
If it has a separate headphone stage, then it does have a headphone amp, even if not necessarily a great one.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Ya what I mean was it doesn't have a separate IC that's acts as an amp similar to the z or stx for example.

There was a thread on here somewhere that robscix pointed that out.


----------



## stv014

So, is it driven directly by the same LME49710's as the line output ?


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Well if there is a separate headphone stage then I would assume not. Most likely run off 2 different mono op amps or a dual?

Lol but I take it you already know the answer.... 

So I guess that would be considered as the "headphone amp" then?


----------



## stv014

djinferno806 said:


> Lol but I take it you already know the answer....


 
  
 Unfortunately I cannot know for sure, since I do not have the Titanium HD, so the only information I have about it is whatever I can find on forums and in reviews, and pictures of the PCB.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Oh I thought you were actually just asking me when you knew the answer lol.

Ya the only info on the amp section is what robscix said in that thread. Other than that, not much info is known except for it doesn't use any known headphone amp IC.


----------



## stv014

djinferno806 said:


> Oh I thought you were actually just asking me when you knew the answer lol.


 
  
 Actually, I do not know, that is why I was asking. I could find it out easily if I had the card, but I do not. I am not sure which thread you are referring to, but I only found claims that the card does not have a dedicated headphone amplifier, but nothing concrete about exactly what is driving the headphone jack. I did find the output impedance (~36 Ω) at goldenears.net, though.


----------



## Solarium

I just connected the headphones directly to the sound card's headphone jack, without using the ACM, and noticed that it sounds less muddy/bass heavy.
  
 Maybe the ACM somehow degrades the SQ?


----------



## DJINFERNO806

^ that's been the general consensus since the beginning of this thread.


----------



## stv014

solarium said:


> I just connected the headphones directly to the sound card's headphone jack, without using the ACM, and noticed that it sounds less muddy/bass heavy.
> 
> Maybe the ACM somehow degrades the SQ?


 
  
 If the ACM includes a volume control, then it is probably a simple passive attenuator, which increases the source impedance seen by the headphone drivers. The HD5x8 are quite responsive to changes in the output impedance of the amplifier. A higher impedance increases bass resonance at about 90 Hz (see "electrical impedance and phase" here), and it also increases bass distortion.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

^ This is the best explanation of why the ACM could distort and ruin the sound quality. Thanks for the info.

I know there would be some resistance as the volume control, however I wasn't sure how that would affect the signal along the path even at full strength, max volume.


----------



## stv014

The volume control ideally should not affect the sound at 100% setting, but it could under certain circumstances, depending on exactly how it is implemented. For example, the potentiometer may still add some serial resistance at the maximum level, or, if used as a voltage divider, it may present an extra parallel load (dropping the level somewhat due to the output impedance) to the headphone amplifier of the sound card.


----------



## Anarion

Whether or not it degrades the sound quality I can't use this card without ACM, too loud and no room for control.


----------



## Solarium

djinferno806 said:


> ^ that's been the general consensus since the beginning of this thread.




Looks like it's TiHD or STX for me. What's the consensus between those?


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Why not just keep the zxr but not use the ACM? I know its not the best value for your money, but its an option.

Those two will offer similar sound quality albeit very different features. The tihd won't have the same amping power as the stx though. The stx using the same TI amp as the zxr of course. Your best bet is to look up some reviews of the cards.


----------



## Solarium

djinferno806 said:


> Why not just keep the zxr but not use the ACM? I know its not the best value for your money, but its an option.
> 
> Those two will offer similar sound quality albeit very different features. The tihd won't have the same amping power as the stx though. The stx using the same TI amp as the zxr of course. Your best bet is to look up some reviews of the cards.




Since I'll be using an external amp anyway, looks like I'll be getting the TiHD. The refurb one is going for $100 at newegg right now, and I'm going to try to use my HD598 without an amp and even if I need an external amp it would sound better than the internal amp used with STX or ZXR. Even if I get a Magni along with the TiHD, it would still be cheaper.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

So I have decided to sell my ZXR and go the external route with an Audio GD 15.32.  This would be the best option as I want to also use headphones with my console games too which right now I cannot.  Probably going to pick up a Z oem to use as optical out for PC gaming still though as I want SBX surround still.
  
 Anyway I posted it over in the For Sale forums,
  
http://www.head-fi.org/t/690001/sound-blaster-zxr-no-acm


----------



## Bloodflowerz

djinferno806 said:


> So I have decided to sell my ZXR and go the external route with an Audio GD 15.32.  This would be the best option as I want to also use headphones with my console games too which right now I cannot.  Probably going to pick up a Z oem to use as optical out for PC gaming still though as I want SBX surround still.
> 
> Anyway I posted it over in the For Sale forums,
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/690001/sound-blaster-zxr-no-acm


 
  
 Will you be connecting the DAC/amp via USB at some point?


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Nah probably not, unless I take the amp to another PC here and there. But mainly will be optical out


----------



## Bloodflowerz

djinferno806 said:


> Nah probably not, unless I take the amp to another PC here and there. But mainly will be optical out


 
  
 Okay. Just bear in mind that you should be looking to get a dac with an isolated USB if you would ever consider using the USB port. I'm currently stuck with a noisy, non isolated 400 GBP irDac whereby I can hear my mouse scrolling in my headphones when I move it. Damn annoying.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Ya that's one thing I was definitely looking out for.

Over on the audio gd thread, nobody has complained about that using USB so I feel confident it should be OK.

Apparently the USB was confirmed to have it own separate voltage, not shared with the optical in. But I'll inquire when I email the guys.


----------



## Bloodflowerz

djinferno806 said:


> Ya that's one thing I was definitely looking out for.
> 
> Over on the audio gd thread, nobody has complained about that using USB so I feel confident it should be OK.
> 
> Apparently the USB was confirmed to have it own separate voltage, not shared with the optical in. But I'll inquire when I email the guys.


 
  
 What it should have is an *galvanic isolated USB input. *
  
 As you said, you'll be using optical so no worries there however it's always nice to know exactly what you are buying; you never know when your situation might change and you may want to use USB instead.


----------



## SoFGR

usb has less jitter than  optical mind you 
  
 also, I think that it's much more practical to switch your dac over to "USB" input everytime you want to listen some music  on foobar with WASAPI  and then switch back to optical when you want to play some games with SBX surround on 
  
 I used to switch DAC inputs all the time  when i had  x-fi for games and  modded hiface  for music, there was no need to fiddle with software / OS  settings.


----------



## Bloodflowerz

sofgr said:


> usb has less jitter than  optical mind you
> 
> also, I think that it's much more practical to switch your dac over to "USB" input everytime you want to listen some music  on foobar with WASAPI  and then switch back to optical when you want to play some games with SBX surround on
> 
> I used to switch DAC inputs all the time  when i had  x-fi for games and  modded hiface  for music, there was no need to fiddle with software / OS  settings.


 
  
 Yes, this is exactly my setup. I have the irDac connected via USB for music and optical for games. No switching required. Just a damn pity they did not implement an isolated USB.


----------



## stv014

sofgr said:


> usb has less jitter than  optical mind you


 
  
 Jitter should not be audible with any competent DAC implementation, regardless of whether it uses USB or S/PDIF input. On the other hand, ground loops can easily cause audible and annoying noise, like posted above. Although this is a problem mostly when the DAC and amplifier are in separate devices that are both grounded, such as a sound card in a PC and an external amplifier.


----------



## Bloodflowerz

stv014 said:


> Jitter should not be audible with any competent DAC implementation, regardless of whether it uses USB or S/PDIF input. On the other hand, ground loops can easily cause audible and annoying noise, like posted above. Although this is a problem mostly when the DAC and amplifier are in separate devices that are both grounded, such as a sound card in a PC and an external amplifier.


 
  
 Yep, and so a ground loop occurs, which is my problem........


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Ya i read a lot into jitter when I first started looking into external units and it seems most sources will tell you that on modern DAC IC's,what little jitter may occur while using optical is usually in the inaudible range.
  
 However I dont have much experience using optical to begin with.  I run audio from my GPU via HDMI to my AVR for movis and my ZXR curently handles the headphone audio for gaming.  I never really had a reason to use optical especially with superior HDMI around.


----------



## Solarium

Got my TiHD today, apparently its output impedance is 36, worst than either ZXR (22) or STX (10). Does it get measured from the headphone jack or the RCA jack (does the RCA even have an output impedance)? If I plug my headphones via the RCA jack will it sound better?
  
 Also, what's the consensus for external amps to be used with TiHD/ZXR/STX, I'm thinking Magni or E9/E09K. Is there anything that allows me to plug both my speakers and headphones through the amp, and the amp to be connected with the RCA out?


----------



## SaLX

> Does it get measured from the headphone jack or the RCA jack (does the RCA even have an output impedance)? If I plug my headphones via the RCA jack will it sound better?


 
  
 1. Headphone jack is the 36 Ohm measurement (lol)
  
 2. The RCA's - you'd need to output to an external amp - thought you had one or were getting one? This is the preferred route with an amp.


----------



## Solarium

salx said:


> 1. Headphone jack is the 36 Ohm measurement (lol)
> 
> 2. The RCA's - you'd need to output to an external amp - thought you had one or were getting one? This is the preferred route with an amp.


 
 Why is it the preferred route with an amp, because of not double amping?
  
 I returned my E11... not sure if I need any amp with my HD598's since listening from the RCA jack from my ZXR sounds great. Are there any amps that allows you to plug both the speakers (to bypass it) and the headphones in, and a switch to tune in to either one?


----------



## SaLX

Er.. not owned one, but with the TiHD apparently the RCA out is the better internal signal to use. Connect to the external amp. Set for headphones and you're good to go. You'd have to use an amp though - just sticking the headphones into those ports would sound crap. Get an ultra cheap FiiO E5 or E6 for starters.
  
 Read up the last 15 pages or so to find in more detail why you shouldn't use the speaker outputs for headphones (for surround). Basically you're making your headphones pretend they're speakers in front of you and not all around. Not optimal. Scratching my head as to why your Rca outs /ZxR with the 598 plugged in sounds so good unamped.
  
 Lots of amps have that ability to output to speakers. There's loads!  But the ZxR could've done it in software for you. With your new TiHD you'll have to crawl under your desk to swap then change the settings in SW as you can't have both headphones and speakers plugged in at the same time apparently (somebody correct me if I'm wrong on this).


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Output impedencr of the zxr is apparently 40 ohm, 22 is the z.

Its measured from the headphonr jack. Line out jacks usually have an impedence of 100 ohms or more.


Also the TiHD is able to output cmss3d headphone through line outs apparently. The z/zxr seems to have that feature removed for some reason.

Also what is the reason why you want an amp to connect to the zxr?


----------



## Evshrug

Finally, just bought a SB-Z. PCPartsPicker.com alerted me that Newegg and Amazon are having a sale today, I picked Amazon because recently Newegg screwed me over with my last two orders and they charge YOU to fix it (not to mention time). $65 shipped from a reliable vendor, with a $25 gift card from my credit card, it was an impulse buy. Sorry DJINFERNO, I saw your sale just now, the Z was too easy to choose.

Anyways I'll happily be joining the ranks! Thought it was cool that others — who I'd been reading and trying to understand the settings options of this series of cards — asked me for tips on other threads, well thanks guys but now it comes back to you! I'll share my experiences next week.

For certain, you CAN'T get headphone surround out from the line-outs? My external amp has RCA inputs, and while 3.5mm-to-RCA cables have worked well for me so far, an OCD part of me would like to use the matching connectors and line-level output...


----------



## Evshrug

OMG! You guys need to read this!
AMD's positional audio processing... more accurate than Binaural... that will be built-in to Radeon Graphics cards and the Sony PS4! 
"...it’s an earnest revival of advanced gaming audio, and it sounds bloody wonderful."
http://www.maximumpc.com/everything_you_wanted_know_about_amd’s_new_trueaudio_technology_2013?page=0,1


----------



## SaLX

What's your take on the SBZ Omni guys? It's really cheap(ish) @ $80. Not exactly pretty. Why is there no option though to mix stereo out like on the normal Z's for stereo uncompressed PCM with it's Toslink out? Not included by the looks of it.
  

  
 Eve - glad you got a SBZ!!


----------



## Evshrug

^Yosh! Me too... Long time waiting, to be honest.
I was anticipating the Omni, thought it would be a Recon3D USB replacement, but unlike that (unique) device the Omni doesn't have an optical input option for consoles. It does look like a good PC option, though, and in particular I'm stoked that Creative has continued to make a Mac option with their current generation of products. Optical output is also awesome... The Omni basically looks like an external SoundBlaster Z. I think the Omni looks pretty cool... red's my fav color though


----------



## SaLX

Saw some poor Mac owner got burned (Amazon US) by not looking at the small print _Dolby Digital Live delivers 5.1, note For windows only. _Basically then - optical output is completely useless for Macs. (Bet that was lawyers / men in suits did that 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





)


----------



## Skipshrike

I wonder if that amp in the Omni is freakishly loud like my Z's.


----------



## SaLX

skipshrike said:


> I wonder if that amp in the Omni is freakishly loud like my Z's.


 
 Windows has always messed around for no apparent reason by very occasionally playing with volume. One minute you've got to crank it up to 50% and you're fine, then for no reason you're on 5% volume or it's too loud. I don't think this is a Creative issue, I really don't; it does however happen to a lot of people. I've never sussed out what caused it.... always seemed to go away when you fiddled a bit.
  
 How's your K712 Pros Skipshrike? They're the same price as the K702 Annies here in the UK. Do they work well with the SBZ and how do they compare to the X1's?


----------



## Skipshrike

salx said:


> Windows has always messed around for no apparent reason by very occasionally playing with volume. One minute you've got to crank it up to 50% and you're fine, then for no reason you're on 5% volume or it's too loud. I don't think this is a Creative issue, I really don't; it does however happen to a lot of people. I've never sussed out what caused it.... always seemed to go away when you fiddled a bit.
> 
> How's your K712 Pros Skipshrike? They're the same price as the K702 Annies here in the UK. Do they work well with the SBZ and how do they compare to the X1's?


 
  
 I've been fiddling. It's slightly maddening because the line-out jack doesn't have this problem. A USB headset also had this same problem because it's in-line volume control controlled the windows volume.
  
 The X1's and K712's work great with the SBZ. Both headphones are enjoyable for gaming. The X1's have more bass and are great for single-player (in the BF4 beta I would use them whenever I played support and used an LMG...boomy noises as intended!). I prefer the K712's for gaming, however, since I am mostly playing BF4 and COD: Ghosts and they help minimize distracting noises.  Granted I still get knifed in the back in Ghosts a lot because I'm trying to focus on the map, radar, what's around me and miss the guy sneaking up behind me.

 I've kept both because I prefer one over the other for certain music....and the X1 works way much better with my Astro Mixamp.


----------



## Solarium

Wow the SBZ currently $65 at newegg for me, I just got the TiHD refurb for $89, wonder if I should get the Z at this price


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Solarium, you need to sit down and figure out what it is you want from a sound card. You are all over the place man. Lol.

@evshrug

Yes 120% you can not get headphone hrtf from line outs. At least not until someone makes a custom driver or creative adds a switch in software for this.


----------



## Axaion

evshrug said:


> OMG! You guys need to read this!
> AMD's positional audio processing... more accurate than Binaural... that will be built-in to Radeon Graphics cards and the Sony PS4!
> "...it’s an earnest revival of advanced gaming audio, and it sounds bloody wonderful."
> http://www.maximumpc.com/everything_you_wanted_know_about_amd’s_new_trueaudio_technology_2013?page=0,1


 
 More accurate than binaural? - lol no, binaural is how it would sound in real life if its done correctly, id like to see them do it more accurate than that


----------



## Evshrug

axaion said:


> More accurate than binaural? - lol no, binaural is how it would sound in real life if its done correctly, id like to see them do it more accurate than that



Did you read the article? Binaural HRTFs are algorithms based on two mics placed inside a dummy head... but nobody's ears and head are shaped just like this generalized dummy's head. That's why we often vary in processing preference and percentage. Supposedly, this should be an HRBF, whatever that stands for, and the algorithms are based on starting with how the brain interprets distance, degrees, and elevation.

Obviously I have no idea how well it'll work in practice, but more developments in this field are a good thing for everybody!


----------



## Solarium

djinferno806 said:


> Solarium, you need to sit down and figure out what it is you want from a sound card. You are all over the place man. Lol.
> 
> @evshrug
> 
> Yes 120% you can not get headphone hrtf from line outs. At least not until someone makes a custom driver or creative adds a switch in software for this.




Basically the best sound quality for the best price, good 3D positional audio, ability to switch between the headphones and speakers easily, and included headphone amp (with low output impedance). The SBZ has the advantage of plugging both headphones and speakers in at the cost of not having as nice of DAC, while as the TiHD you pretty much need to unplug the speakers to listen to headphones and vice versa everytime.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Then sounds like the z is your choice and at $65 on newegg, its a no brainer!

Now if newegg.com shipped to Canada I'd grab one right now! Arghhh


----------



## Solarium

djinferno806 said:


> Then sounds like the z is your choice and at $65 on newegg, its a no brainer!
> 
> Now if newegg.com shipped to Canada I'd grab one right now! Arghhh




Gonna test them both to see if there's a big difference in the DAC's


----------



## DJINFERNO806

The biggest difference will.come from the z's headphone out isn't as clean as the line outs. The headphone amp on the z is mediocre at best so the sound is so so from there in comparison.


----------



## Axaion

evshrug said:


> Did you read the article? Binaural HRTFs are algorithms based on two mics placed inside a dummy head... but nobody's ears and head are shaped just like this generalized dummy's head. That's why we often vary in processing preference and percentage. Supposedly, this should be an HRBF, whatever that stands for, and the algorithms are based on starting with how the brain interprets distance, degrees, and elevation.
> 
> Obviously I have no idea how well it'll work in practice, but more developments in this field are a good thing for everybody!


 
 You only linked page 2, and my browser didnt show page 1 (noscript D, so no i i hadent.
  
 However, if this is staying AMD only, its not going to get far i fear


----------



## Solarium

djinferno806 said:


> The biggest difference will.come from the z's headphone out isn't as clean as the line outs. The headphone amp on the z is mediocre at best so the sound is so so from there in comparison.


 
  
 So I'll be using the line-outs for both SBZ and TiHD... which kind of makes TiHD more appealing.
  
 Btw, if TiHD, ZXR and STX all use the Burr-Brown DAC, do they all sound identical using the line-out (with all post-processing effects off)?


----------



## xnor

All of these cards are clean down to below -100 dB on the line-outs so I don't see how they would sound different. Using similar or even the same chips won't make audible differences more likely...
  
 Main difference when driving headphones are caused by two things:
 a) different output impedance
 b) different noise floor
  
 that is with no funky processing going on.


----------



## Solarium

So I'm trying 50% ACM volume on the ZXR with windows volume 50/100, versus 100% ACM volume (to bypass any degrade of AQ from ACM) with windows volume 20% to simulate similar overall volume. Listening to dance/house music, I notice that the lower beats around 50hz to be overly loud, kind of drowning all the other sounds making the overall sound "muffled" sounding. I wouldn't get this when I put the ACM to 100% volume and lower windows volume to whatever I'm comfortable with.
  
 By the way, I'm not sure why it's not recommended to plug in the headphones directly to the ZXR's line-out RCA jacks. Don't the RCA jacks have ?no output impedance therefore result in much better AQ than the headphone jack's 36-ohm output impedance?


----------



## DJINFERNO806

I mentioned already in a previous post that line outs have typical output impedence of 100 ohms +.

Not sure why you'd want to plug headphones into a line out, especially with the headphone out being as good as it is.


----------



## xnor

Indeed. Since the ACM seems to be a simple potentiometer it will increase the output impedance if you turn the volume down.
  
 It could easily be a 10,000 ohm pot, so the increase in output impedance could be enormous. Btw Z has about half the output impedance of the ZxR.


----------



## Solarium

djinferno806 said:


> I mentioned already in a previous post that line outs have typical output impedence of 100 ohms +.
> 
> Not sure why you'd want to plug headphones into a line out, especially with the headphone out being as good as it is.




Why is it recommended to connect the external amp on the line-outs instead of the headphone jack then? Had no idea the output impedance is so high on the line out.

What do you mean by headphone out being as good as it is? It has pretty high output impedance too


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Yes there is impedence mismatch on the headphone out ports if you use lower impedence headphones.  But are you unhappy with the sound? Do you hear distortions to the point where it actually sounds terrible? Trust me it wont be better with the line outs, I will tell you that.  Also you wont get headphone surround through the line outs, so there goes one of the biggest features of the card itself.
  
 It is recommended to connect the amp to the line outs because of some people are scared of double amping.  But I would test the amp on both ports and see what it sounds like to you with YOUR headphones.
  
 Lastly if you are adding an amp to the ZXR, then output impedence is irrelevant as you only have to worry about the output impedence of the last source device in the audio chain's impedence.  This case you amp, not the ZXR.


----------



## stv014

solarium said:


> Why is it recommended to connect the external amp on the line-outs instead of the headphone jack then? Had no idea the output impedance is so high on the line out.


 
  
 The output impedance of the line out is not an issue when it is driving a line input (which is its intended purpose), since those typically have resistive impedance at least in the kΩ range. Connecting an external amplifier to the headphone jack instead is not necessarily audibly worse, but it does usually have worse measured performance (like higher noise level), and setting the optimal volume level is also not as obvious - a line output is normally expected to be usable at 100% volume, while a headphone output may have excess gain and clip at that level, or just output higher voltage than what the external amplifier can handle.


----------



## stv014

solarium said:


> Gonna test them both to see if there's a big difference in the DAC's


 
  
 There should not be with a reasonable implementation. I have listening tests on the Sound Science forum (like the one in my signature, but there are a few more as well), some of which include audio recorded from a CS4398 DAC. You can try these to see if you can tell the output of the "low quality" DAC apart from the original. The quality of the headphone outputs is usually more problematic on sound cards (common issues include high output impedance, capacitor coupled outputs, using a chip not well suited for this purpose as a "headphone amplifier", audible noise with sensitive headphones due to digital volume and gain control, and sometimes simply not enough power). Another frequent problem is ground loops with grounded external amplifiers.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Ya I think the biggest drawback with the z isn't the DAC itself either. That headphone amp seems to bottleneck or really hinder the DAC quality. You can tell when you hook up a decent amp to the line outs. Right away there is more detail and bass is controlled more. At least that was for me. Borrowed a friends magni to test long ago on the z, also an e09k which I returned to the store.

In fact the e09k was the closer sounding amp to the zxr's headphone out. Not surprising since they use the same TI amp.

But anyway, I know SNR isn't always a valid way to judge amps and dac's but its hard to not note the 109 db in z amp vs 120+ in zxr amp.


----------



## xnor

The main difference is going to be due to different output impedance (ZxR has about double) and not properly level matching. More power doesn't mean better but sadly slightly louder is often perceived as better.
  
 Did you really hear hiss with the Z?


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Not at all whatsoever. It's just more "muffled" and more bloating bass that seems to want to destroy mids and highs. But then the highs also pierce your brain sometimes like they don't know where their limit is lol.


----------



## xnor

Both are flat (+/- 0.1 dB from 20 Hz to 20 kHz) with a load. Both have distortion lower than any headphone, and noise floor below that of CDs. The only large difference is output impedance and volume.
  
 Piercing highs usually come from the recording and headphones. :-S Just my random thoughts.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

I don't known it's been a while since I had the z. But that's the only way I could explain the difference going to the zxr. Wish I had them side by side to do a better comparison.


----------



## Evshrug

^All I know is, treble glare hurts while playing CoD4 if I don't add an amp in-line with low output impedance. The FiiO E12 isn't exactly the same opamp as in the ZxR or E09k, but it sounds markedly different/better than the E5, which I later sold in a starter bundle. I'll probably double-amp from the Z's headphone out.


----------



## watsaname

When you amp the headphone out, do you notice any sort of sound quality hits. I was thinking about getting a O2 amp from Mayflower, but I don't want the sound quality to go down or blemishes from the on-board amp to be amplified or become more evident.


----------



## SaLX

watsaname said:


> When you amp the headphone out, do you notice any sort of sound quality hits. I was thinking about getting a O2 amp from Mayflower, but I don't want the sound quality to go down or blemishes from the on-board amp to be amplified or become more evident.


 
 I've heard very few people who have _actually_ used this method... theory is (from the kind posters here - do a search in this thread): a very clean amp with as little gain as possible. The O2 has an internal jumper setting for 1x gain, and I'm sure you could get it ordered that way. This would work best with a low impedance/sensitive headphone because any higher and it would presumably be too quiet. Always plusses and drawbacks.
  
 A guy on the Fidelio X1 thread used a Magni on of his SBZ headphone out and reported it to work perfectly. I don't think there's any jumper settings in that thing.


----------



## Skipshrike

If I decrease the level on the EQ then I get 4% more volume before it starts to become uncomfortable.  This super loud sound card is going to make me start using the line out.
  
 Definitely not a driver issue because I did a complete reinstall of my system.


----------



## SaLX

Full install?? This is weird. You could try this: http://support.microsoft.com/mats/AudioPlayback/.
  
 Try farting around with sample rates in Windows Sound CP.. usually did it for me with my old X-Fi.


----------



## Skipshrike

salx said:


> Full install?? This is weird. You could try this: http://support.microsoft.com/mats/AudioPlayback/.
> 
> Try farting around with sample rates in Windows Sound CP.. usually did it for me with my old X-Fi.


 
 Changing sample rates didn't seem to do anything to the volume level.


----------



## SaLX

Did you at least try the link? Fixit has helped me before when stumped Windows wise. When I googled the audio problem you have, there's a huge amount of people in the same situation. Somebody, _somewhere_ will have come up with a solution. Try buying a $5 **** soundcard or USB soundcard from your local PC store and see what happens.


----------



## SaLX

Wondering whether those ZxR users out there who find their ACM's substandard might just find this of interest (if you've got the cash that is):
  

  
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/401007/review-sm-pro-inano-passive-volume-control
 http://www.thomann.de/gb/sm_pro_audio_nano_patch.htm#bewertunghttp://www.dv247.com/studio-equipment/sm-pro-nano-patchplus--passive-stereo-volume-controller-black--76498
  
 Any opinions if this might actually work?


----------



## xnor

These passive controllers are not made for headphones but to connect active studio monitors with an integrated amplifier.
  
 It would work like the ACM...


----------



## SaLX

It states a built in headphone amp??? Thought this may have done the trick but hey ho. Saw a thread elsewhere where this was suggested.
 http://www.dv247.com/studio-equipment/sm-pro-m-patch-2-passive-volume-attenuator--51232


----------



## xnor

Now you're mixing up 2 different products: Nano Patch and M-Patch (about twice as expensive).


----------



## watsaname

salx said:


> I've heard very few people who have _actually_ used this method... theory is (from the kind posters here - do a search in this thread): a very clean amp with as little gain as possible. The O2 has an internal jumper setting for 1x gain, and I'm sure you could get it ordered that way. This would work best with a low impedance/sensitive headphone because any higher and it would presumably be too quiet. Always plusses and drawbacks.
> 
> A guy on the Fidelio X1 thread used a Magni on of his SBZ headphone out and reported it to work perfectly. I don't think there's any jumper settings in that thing.


 
 That would be quite unfortunate if it needed to be low sensitivity as I have switched to the AKG Q701s. My understanding is that it they are pretty insensitive.


----------



## SaLX

Oopz - my bad! 
  
 Watsaname - you'd have to research what gain settings are best on any particular amp. AKG's are 62 Ohms aren't they?


----------



## watsaname

salx said:


> Oopz - my bad!
> 
> Watsaname - you'd have to research what gain settings are best on any particular amp. AKG's are 62 Ohms aren't they?


 
 Yeah they are 62ohms so they don't require TOO much power, have the Z/Windows Audio Panel hovering around 40% most of the time. But a lot of people on the Q701 appreciation thread always make fun of the sensitivity of them and howthey require a power plant for them to be driven well.


----------



## xnor

> [...] how they require a power plant for them to be driven well.


 
 That's typical audiophile nonsense. For a comparison with other headphones see this table. There are a lot of other headphones, some with much higher impedance, that need more power.
 If you listen to compressed music you need like 6 milliwatts _max_ for a loud average 85 dB SPL.
  
 watsaname, can you go to the Sound control panel, properties of the Sound Blaster Z, Level, right click the slider and select decibel. How many - dB are 40%?


----------



## SaLX

Excuse me xnor, but I've consistently heard that AKG's require a_ decent_ amount of juice to get them sounding their best - as opposed to what you can get away with.This thread however isn't the place for this discussion -  so let's leave it be please.


----------



## xnor

Extra power does not improve sound, but can cause the opposite, and when you have to turn the volume all the way down all the extra power is not being used at all. I always ask this: why don't you drive your headphones with two 1000 W monoblocks? I guess a $99 headphone amp with fixed 5x gain that is well-known around here with sensitive headphones is bad enough. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Alright, I'm leaving it be now.


----------



## Skipshrike

Apologies SaLX. I did try the fixit and it recommended to increase the volume.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

^LOL typical Microsoft answers.

Volume too loud? OK then increase the volume!

*claps*


----------



## SaLX

Aaargh no xnor!!! I apologise for saying that - wrong context please. Wrong end of stick and willl look into it I promise!!!
  
 Shrip.. it said to _recommended to increase the volume_ ... oh dear???? Last time I ran that program (or collection of regfixes), it truly worked for some file access error or something. I've had that same problem on and off years - I now want to solve it so the next time it happens I'd know exactly what to do.


----------



## thePhysicist8

I have a question.

The specs on Creative's site say that the SBZ only supports 5.1 surround sound. Does this mean that it can only output in 5.1 surround sound, or that it doesn't support it at all? I plan on using it for gaming with a sterio headset, so I don't mind that it only outputs 5.1. Does it accept 7.1 input?


----------



## DJINFERNO806

thephysicist8 said:


> I have a question.
> 
> The specs on Creative's site say that the SBZ only supports 5.1 surround sound. Does this mean that it can only output in 5.1 surround sound, or that it doesn't support it at all? I plan on using it for gaming with a sterio headset, so I don't mind that it only outputs 5.1. Does it accept 7.1 input?




The z can output stereo or 5.1 via 3.5 mm connections.

The card does not accept 7.1. At least not directly. 7.1 signals are down mixed to 5.1 in the windows mixer before hitting the z.


----------



## Evshrug

Got mine in today!
Haven't plugged it in yet, but I made an unboxing video (not long) for YouTube and eventually my head-fi journal. I'm going to set it up while I wait for it to upload... Any suggestions on uninstalling the Recon3D USB drivers?
-----

*DJINFERNO,*
technically... the 3.5 mm jack always outputs stereo, it's just optionally that stereo has been processed to "sound" surround. If you plugged a 5.1 speaker surround setup into the 3.5mm feed, it wouldn't play through the correct speakers, BUT the optical out can send a 5.1 (or 7.1) signal in Dolby or DTS format to a home-theater receiver or something. Also, the sound card supports 5.1 (or 7.1, or OpenAL) channels of input sound from a DVD or game or web-thing, but the optical input from what I read doesn't decode DDL from external sources like a PS3.
-----

*watsaname,*
The Q701 is relatively low-sensitivity for it's impedance, but it is still relatively easy to get enough volume. I've found that it's better to look for low-distortion, low output impedance amps, and then implementation matters too though it's hard to know what something will sound like without hearing it.

Over-loud amps do put listening volume below the sweet spot on the potentiometer/volume control, but vice-versa something underpowered can put listening volume where the amp starts to distort. There is also lot of talk about voltage vs current, and how much a certain headphone requires what... Off and on I do research on this, but it's important to keep in mind other factors that may be affecting the final sound.

In the end, I can only say I like the different amps I've heard, and they each have affected the sound differently in minute ways.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

What? I think your confused in what he was asking and what I was saying.

The z supports full 5.1 out through its three line out 3.5mm ports. FL/FR, RL/RR, C/SUB

And like I said the card can output 5.1 only via analogue or optical with encoding.

The card only accepts 5.1 as evident from the windows mixer settings. 7.1 is down mixed.

If you are using openal, its coordinate based as opposed to discrete channels so it mixes its own hrtf anyway. At least to headphones. So 5.1/7.1 is irrelevant.

I'd you use openal with 5.1 speakers out, then it will map coordinates into discrete channels. Similar to how one of the cmss3d modes does. That's from what I remember anyway.


----------



## Evshrug

No I wasn't confused... Though I forgot that the Z uses multiple 3.5mm outputs if you want a 5.1 surround setup, I was just trying to clarify that you can't plug a home theatre into the one 3.5mm jack and expect 5.1 to work properly on six speakers.

You CAN choose the headphone jack to play stereo or virtual surround, and you CAN output DDL 5.1 from the optical out to connect to a home theater, you CAN connect multiple speakers to the multiple 3.5 jacks and get a desktop 5.1 speaker setup, but you CANNOT connect a game console to the card and get 5.1 input... with a console, you can only input stereo, for licensing reasons.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Ya that's why I said 3.5mm connection(s). 

Whomever thinks you can get more than 2 channels from one port worries me.

I don't call virtual surround out of headphone ports or line outs 5.1. Thats an hrtf signal that juat happens to derived from 5.1 to create a sound field. 5.1 is only through optical or analogue. In the zxr's case, its only optical
You can blame gaming headsets and stupid marketing for interchanging terms whenever they want.


----------



## Evshrug

My computer is stuck uninstalling the Recon3D software 
I did manage to "uninstall" the Recon3D from the computer devices manager, but the actual software suite is still on the drive. At this moment, the windows uninstaller program is stuck 3/4 of the way uninstalling the main suite...

Meh, this is why I prefer Mac, I have to spend over 30 minutes on windows to erase different components and update weekly drivers, rather than just USING the computer. No wonder so many people are using tablets and smartphones instead, just to keep things simple.


----------



## SaLX

Evs - Try this solution (if indeed this is the USB Recon3D): http://www.petri.co.il/removing-old-drivers-from-vista-and-windows7.htm# I've done this before when having problems with unruly drivers that I though had been uninstalled but were still there. Possibly this is why the actual suite isn't uninstalling properly.
  
 Try using Driver Sweeper too (maybe 1st): http://www.guru3d.com/content_page/guru3d_driver_sweeper.html. Also try to uninstall the suite in Safe Mode. Worth a shot.


----------



## Evshrug

Thanks SaLX,
I think I was letting frustration get the better of me there. The software finished uninstalling from the Programs and Features window, so after that and the prior uninstall of the device from computer>device manager, I should be good.

Just got done physically plugging the card in, I wanted to plug it in to a PCI Express 2 slots under my videocard so I could see the red light, but for some reason the back panel wouldn't fit properly between motherboard and case. Got it in above the card now... Guess I don't HAVE to see inside my computer :/

Let's see if this puppy works, but I've only got a few minutes before I have to get ready for work...


----------



## Evshrug

Got it working, no time to play, SBX control panel audio sounded good at about 34% volume to my K712


----------



## SaLX

Good news - looking forward to hear how you like it.


----------



## spooky655

Anyone paired this with Sony MDR-MA900s?


----------



## SaLX

Dunno if you've seen this: http://www.head-fi.org/t/663121/sony-mdr-ma900-appreciation-thread/120#post_9734152. Some guy's have problems with the volume being too loud but that could be just a WIndows problem. The MA900's have an impedance compensator which negates the need to worry about impedance mismatch.
  
 Hopefully somebody can answer this directly.


----------



## Solarium

Any preference on amps to use with this particular DAC (ZXR, TiHD, STX), I'm debating between:
  
 1. Schiit Magni
 2. Fiio E09K
  
 Btw, so far between SBX surround vs CMSS-3D, I thought the latter has better 3D positioning and SBX has a slight overall SQ preservation (both kinda ruins the SQ but SBX less so).


----------



## Evshrug

salx said:


> Good news - looking forward to hear how you like it.



Thanks! Installing the card and software actually was smooth and brief, it's just the other Windows stuff about removing old things and making way. Just got done eating after work, I think I'll try some... thing... Hmm. Just beat tomb raider, not really feeling like Battlefield 3 right now, what to play? I've got DOTA2... Oh WAIT! I've not started Skyrim yet!

*promptly looses job*




solarium said:


> Any preference on amps to use with this particular DAC (ZXR, TiHD, STX), I'm debating between:
> 
> 1. Schiit Magni
> 2. Fiio E09K
> ...



I think those are both good amps. Though I haven't heard either, I've read that generally people find the Magni to be cleaner and sharper, while the E9 is warmer and more forgiving. I personally own an E12, which to me sounds like a nice middle ground between warm and clear.


----------



## SaLX

Solarium -- _you don't need an amp_. And to be honest, out of the three above only the TiHD will be safe with further amping (via it's line outs). The other two are gimped if you want to add an amp to their line outs = no or crap headphone surround. Get a ZxR and whack your phones into the headphone out mate.
  
 Read this post by benbenkr: http://www.overclock.net/t/1392877/a-couple-questions-about-cmss-3d-dolby-headphone-and-similar-technologies. It is excellent. SBX pro is kind of the king atm - interesting too about open/closed headphones.


----------



## PurpleAngel

solarium said:


> Any preference on amps to use with this particular DAC (ZXR, TiHD, STX), I'm debating between:
> 
> 1. Schiit Magni
> 2. Fiio E09K
> ...


 

 Do you own all three? Sound Blaster ZxR, Titanium-HD & Essence STX.
 Or are you planning on buying one of the sound cards, then getting an external headphone amplifier to go with the sound card?


----------



## Solarium

salx said:


> Solarium -- _you don't need an amp_. And to be honest, out of the three above only the TiHD will be safe with further amping (via it's line outs). The other two are gimped if you want to add an amp to their line outs = no or crap headphone surround. Get a ZxR and whack your phones into the headphone out mate.
> 
> Read this post by benbenkr: http://www.overclock.net/t/1392877/a-couple-questions-about-cmss-3d-dolby-headphone-and-similar-technologies. It is excellent. SBX pro is kind of the king atm - interesting too about open/closed headphones.


 
  
 I have both the ZXR and TiHD, but planning to return the ZXR because I got it for $229 while the TiHD refurb for $79. Even with TiHD"s headphone out of 37 ohm output impedance would you say it's worth amping?
  


purpleangel said:


> Do you own all three? Sound Blaster ZxR, Titanium-HD & Essence STX.
> Or are you planning on buying one of the sound cards, then getting an external headphone amplifier to go with the sound card?


 
  
 Yea, since the TiHD is so much cheaper than ZXR, I could use the extra cash to get an amp. I'm enjoying the ZXR right now, but I don't think it can justify the $229. The TiHD at $79 is just much more price/performance.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

solarium said:


> Any preference on amps to use with this particular DAC (ZXR, TiHD, STX), I'm debating between:
> 
> 1. Schiit Magni
> 2. Fiio E09K
> ...




For what reason do you want an amp? The zxr is capable of enough power for almost all cans minus 600 ohm monsters.

If its an impedance thing, then the e09k has 10 ohms still at which point don't even bother. Might as well get magni.


----------



## PurpleAngel

solarium said:


> I have both the ZXR and TiHD, but planning to return the ZXR because I got it for $229 while the TiHD refurb for $79. Even with TiHD"s headphone out of 37 ohm output impedance would you say it's worth amping?
> 
> Yea, since the TiHD is so much cheaper than ZXR, I could use the extra cash to get an amp. I'm enjoying the ZXR right now, but I don't think it can justify the $229. The TiHD at $79 is just much more price/performance.


 
 I would rather use a Magni or O2 external head amp, then any head amp built into any current sound card (ZxR or STX).
 The ZxR, STX & E09K all use the same TI 6120A2 headphone amplifier chip
 So get a Magni (new or used) and plug it into the T-HD's (Titanium-HD) RCA output jack, as the T-HD can output CMSS-3D Headphone surround sound thru it's RCA outputs.


----------



## Ikarios

I just picked up an SBZ from the recent $65 sale and was doing some research before I installed the thing. Am I going crazy or are some people talking about "Line Out" on the SBZ like it's a separate thing from the headphone out? Is there a way to bypass the headphone amp portion on the SBZ while keeping the DAC portion intact (i.e. without going through optical out)? I went back some pages and didn't find anything, so it might just be people talking about the ZXR and not mentioning the model or something.


----------



## SaLX

@Ikarios: For both the SBZ and the SB ZxR in 2 channel mode / stereo headphones,
  
*Headphone Out:* For headphones. Amplified. Uses the DAC (as you'll know!)
  
*Line Out:* For speakers. Uses the DAC. Not amplified. _You can use it for headphones, but you'd require an amp as the output impedance is too high for any headphone. _Not recommended for headphone surround as DJInferno stated - it's a mess for the HRTF's needed. This method of connection is solely for speaker users or weirdo's with v-shaped heads.
  
*Toslink out: *Does not use the DAC as you know. In the SB control panel you can send surround info to your external DAC/Receiver in either 2 channel or Dolby/DTS.
  


> Is there a way to bypass the headphone amp portion on the SBZ while keeping the DAC portion intact (i.e. without going through optical out)?


 
 Er.. yes but you wouldn't want to...... Read further back in this thread 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





:  Put a low gain and low THD amp _into the headphone out_. This has been confirmed to work (a Magni user said 10/10 I saw). An O2 on 1x gain I've read works too. The lineouts are a forbidden zone with headphones for virtual surround gaming; unlike past SB's where you at least had the choice of switching between speakers and HP's.
  
 Hope this helps. Basically they've dumbed down the latest Creative line. Sad.


----------



## Evshrug

I got one as well. You may well be right... The Z doesn't have any RCA outs (which is the line-out on the ZxR). Maybe the L/R front jack serves as a volume-independent line-out? Haven't had the chance to try out that part.

SaLX,
You could send headphone-processed surround through the line-outs in the old X-Fi Titanium HD, but you couldn't have both speakers and headphones plugged in at the same time and had to manually plug/unplug your speakers and headphones to switch between outputs. Now, you can select which output to use in-software, so you win some and lose some.

My SB Z: 
Initial impressions were good, although the only FPS I had was BF3. I actually think the K712 sounds good straight out from the 3.5mm jack, thought BF3 just has crazy sharp pops and explosions it's hard to relax and concentrate. When I install Portal 2 and Skyrim (and buy Borderlands 2), the real test will begin.


----------



## SaLX

As you point out_ all_ the old X-Fi's could use the line out/RCA out(s) as they pleased for HP or stereo: just like the current Xonars (but tragically not the ST/STX). Who are these people!!!!!!
  
 I used to share a flat with a PHD engineer - a genius, but he couldn't even boil an egg.


----------



## Evshrug

Lolz
I'm plugging my little desktop monitors into the front R/L's
For the life of me, I thought the card I'd just bought and had in my hand had RCA jacks. I even started writing that to Ikarios! But then I thought "Gee, I'd sure sound stupid if I was wrong," so I got out my setup paper (my computer was tucked back away).

I wonder if I could get my computer's front panel audio jacks working. I tried hooking it up to my motherboard ages ago, but I never got it working and assumed it was faulty.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

^Keep in mind that if you use the front panel audio jack, you still have to be in headphone mode, meaning no line out functionality at the same time.  As well as you are most likely bypassing your the Maxim amp and Cirrus DAC(from the lead arrangement coming from these chips, doesn't seem like its possible to loop back to the front panel connector).  Since the Soundcore3D has its own DAC built in, it would end up using that one.
  
 Most users have already commented that the front panel out(apart from all the extra noise) just sounds totally different sound stage wise too.


----------



## Evshrug

^ Good thing to keep in mind, plus exposure to EMI right? But still... Part of me wants to do it, "just because it's there."

Another part of me is yelling "Why didn't you just get an Omni, to use with all your computer setups?"

Sometimes, it gets very noisy in here...


----------



## Radical_53

You can try it out but front panel has always been very noisy for me. With the phones plugged in I don't want to hear the faintest noise, nothing, unless music is playing. Background noise should be zero.
 I typically mute everything I don't use, like the two mic-ins, to get rid of their intereference too. Especially with closed cans, where you can actually hear every detail and every bit of background noise, you don't want anything "on top" to ruin your experience.


----------



## muksuluuri

Where to download the drivers for SBZ? Creative's server is apparently running on a Celeron 300A and a 56kbps modem. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  I'm getting max 30kbps dl speeds and it's driving me nuts, having to wait for hours for a puny 162 MB file.


----------



## Solarium

For some reason, after installing the TiHD, I think the speaker playback is somehow better than the ZXR's.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

^I highly doubt there is a perceivable difference in audio quality considering it uses the same DAC, pretty much same Op-amps.  Probably a placebo effect.  Its really hard for you to remember how the ZXR sounded exactly since you didnt really use it for so long.
  
  
 You sure you didnt have EQ or DSP effects active in either card?  Also are you using speaker positioning software with either?


----------



## Solarium

djinferno806 said:


> ^I highly doubt there is a perceivable difference in audio quality considering it uses the same DAC, pretty much same Op-amps.  Probably a placebo effect.  Its really hard for you to remember how the ZXR sounded exactly since you didnt really use it for so long.
> 
> 
> You sure you didnt have EQ or DSP effects active in either card?  Also are you using speaker positioning software with either?


 
 Comparing both cards with all the EQ/DSP effects off... There may be no appreciable difference between the two, but the TiHD is *definitely* louder at the same volumes (not sure why either).


----------



## xnor

Even if both cards had the same gain, volume control, max output voltage the TiHD would give you a tad higher voltage (volume) into headphones because of the *slightly* lower output impedance. A slightly higher volume is commonly perceived as better sound.


----------



## SaLX

Ah xnor - he's talking about speaker output 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 As for that headphone impedance figure of 40 Ohms - I'd _really_ like to pin this down. Remember that ZxR's were reported to have a substandard headamp to the STX (the identical one) and was proven to be totally wrong?
  
 The 40Ω figure was based off of one Russian site... I've no doubt that they are serious reviewers (for a change), however I'm a bit concerned as to their methodology ie: was it exactly the same test between the two examples below? I've seen many posts from people using headphones under 40Ω and they say they work well with the ZxR; and quite a few of them seem damned well informed about audio. By the normal 1/8 rule, that ratio would make their ZxR/low impedance headphones sound like a huge pile of steaming crape.
  
  
 Best use Chrome for the translation:
  
http://personalaudio.ru/detail/creative_soundblaster_z_/
  

 (Ignore the Recon bit).
  
http://personalaudio.ru/detail/creative_soundblaster_zxr/
  

  
 Could any technically minded Head-Fi'ers (stv??) comment on this. Many thanks all.


----------



## xnor

salx said:


> Ah xnor - he's talking about speaker output
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 You mean line-outs?
  
 No, a high output impedance doesn't make low impedance headphones sound bad.
 The biggest difference is going to be
 a) lower output voltage (volume) into low impedance headphones
  - 250 ohm headphone => 86% (-1.3 dB)
  - 32 ohm headphone => 44% (-7 dB)
  - 16 ohm headphone => 29% (-10.9 dB)
  
 b) frequency response deviations from flat (using a voltage source = 0 ohm output impedance) depending on the impedance of the headphone
  - take a headphone with 16 ohm at 1 kHz but 32 ohm at 100 Hz, look at the numbers above, effectively you get a bass boost of about +4 dB
  
 c) slightly measurable increase in harmonic distortion, especially in the bass, but with a good headphone the increase shouldn't be noticeable


----------



## stv014

> Originally Posted by *SaLX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> The 40Ω figure was based off of one Russian site... I've no doubt that they are serious reviewers (for a change), however I'm a bit concerned as to their methodology ie: was it exactly the same test between the two examples below. I've seen many posts from people using headphones under 40Ω and they say they work well with the ZxR; and quite a few of them seem damned well informed about audio. By the normal 1/8 rule, that ratio would make their ZxR/low impedance headphones sound like a huge pile of steaming crape.


 
  
 The measurements at the Russian site consistently show ~40 Ω output impedance for the ZxR. But someone who has the card and a simple splitter could measure it to be sure.
  
 Exceeding 1/8th of the headphone impedance does not necessarily have a major effect on the sound with many of the commonly used full size headphones. It usually adds some bass boost/resonance (which some people actually prefer), and slightly increases the distortion of the drivers. Also, not all headphones are equally affected. So, 0 Ω output impedance is ideal in theory, but in practice often even the headphone jack of a receiver with 680 Ω output impedance might sound good to many.


----------



## SaLX

@Xnor/stv
  
 Yes - Solarium would've have been using the line-outs.
  
 Thank you both _very_ much for your posts. I'm really surprised though - so the 1/8th rule can easily be circumvented as long as the headphone is of good quality - so you get a bit of bloat in the bass, but it's not really anything to worry about in the long run.
  
 Again thank you both - funny that that hard and fast rule is quoted incessantly on Head-Fi. We usually discuss decent quality headphones that would seem to be less prone to distortion, not crappy one's that some gamers would use. Still though.. lower impedance is always something to aim for across the board.


----------



## xnor

Some headphones, especially planar magnetic ones, have a pretty flat impedance across 20 Hz - 20 kHz so you will not even get frequency response deviation.
  
 The 1/8th rule of thumb minimizes that deviation for dynamic headphones with an impedance peak (quite common) in the bass.
  
 Btw, some IEMs with multiple drivers and crossovers have crazy impedance curves, so the frequency response can change a *lot*. There can be large boosts and cuts across the whole frequency range.
  
  
 edit:


salx said:


> Again thank you both - funny that that hard and fast rule is quoted incessantly on Head-Fi. We usually discuss decent quality headphones that would seem to be less prone to distortion, not crappy one's that some gamers would use. Still though.. lower impedance is always something to aim for across the board.


 
 Yeah, Z or DX + O2 amp for example gets you a powerful and clean system with low output impedance.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

No I think he literally meant speakers. Not headphones. Which is why I said there shouldn't be a difference. The amp in the speakers would make more of a difference in this case, which is the same for both.


----------



## SaLX

Xonars - why isn't there an active thread on Head-Fi? The STX modding thread here gets love, but I guess you can find all the info you need on the net by now.
  
 Particularly note the _complete_ lack of any love for the Xonar Phoebus (anywhere). The ROG forums are filled with posts from despondent/dead eyed gamers who wished they had purchased something.. anything ......... The actual card looks good but the driver roll out was (and still is) pretty damned poor. 2 years ago and more that was Creative and look at them now.


----------



## Evshrug

stv014 said:


> The measurements at the Russian site consistently show ~40 Ω output impedance for the ZxR. But someone who has the card and a simple splitter could measure it to be sure.
> 
> Exceeding 1/8th of the headphone impedance does not necessarily have a major effect on the sound with many of the commonly used full size headphones. It usually adds some bass boost/resonance (which some people actually prefer), and slightly increases the distortion of the drivers. Also, not all headphones are equally affected. So, 0 Ω output impedance is ideal in theory, but in practice often even the headphone jack of a receiver with 680 Ω output impedance might sound good to many.



I've had someone else tell me similar months ago. There was a certain someone who made the 1/8th "rule" popular a while ago, before releasing the O2 amp. I still cite impedance as something that matters sometimes, but I don't especially ascribe to the 1/8th figure, seems more of a guideline. I HAVE heard better quality sound by hooking up a "nicer" amp, but output impedance may only be part of the story. Generally though, my experience benefits from lowering odd-harmonic distortion however possible, and I've tried several amps that seem to reduce pain from treble without making a headphone sound dark.

Could I quote your post (*and xnor's*) in my journal thread? I'm trying to gather good knowledge about a wide variety of topics, and I think if I had several posts by different people explaining both sides, it might encourage Head-Fi people to take a harder look and settle possible myths. I can PM you after I post if you'd like to add anything. I can also remove names if you want to be anonymous.

Thanks!



salx said:


> Xonars - why isn't there an active thread on Head-Fi? The STX modding thread here gets love, but I guess you can find all the info you need on the net by now.



Driver support is generally neglected in the Xonar line. I wouldn't want to fudge with something where owners recommend using 3rd party drivers hacked by the community to get the card working well. And then, the big one, I just am not very impressed by Dolby Headphone.


----------



## SaLX

Evs (+1 on your post): I was thinking more on the lines of a general thread like this one _for Xonar users _- a thread where we could ask questions, answer stuff and tear out our hair.


----------



## xnor

Sure, you can quote my posts. Make sure to check by the Sound Science forum if you have any technical questions, like regarding how much power is enough, impedances etc.
  
 The 1/8th rule is just a rough guideline, a rule of thumb.
  
 I'd really love to see new sound cards / audio interfaces with low output impedance.. Most are 20+ ohm so not the best match for those common 32 ohm dynamic headphones and headsets.


----------



## stv014

evshrug said:


> Could I quote your post (*and xnor's*) in my journal thread?


 
  
 Yes. Some other posts that might be relevant:
Measurements of the effects of high output impedance on a dynamic headphone
How to measure output impedance (for more advanced impedance measurement - creating a plot vs. frequency - I also have utilities not discussed at this link)


----------



## SaLX

Got to ask this - both the STX and ZxR share the exact same headphone amp - why the huge discrepancy in their impedance values? Why add more impedance when we know less is better?


----------



## PurpleAngel

salx said:


> Got to ask this - both the STX and ZxR share the exact same headphone amp - why the huge discrepancy in their impedance values? Why add more impedance when we know less is better?


 

 The Essence STX (& ST) and FiiO E9/E09K and ZxR use the same TI 6120A2 chip, both the STX and E9/E09K are 10-Ohms.
 So it would be very surprising if the ZxR was not also 10-Ohms.
 The SB-Z & SB-Zx use what I'm assuming is a lower costing chip then the TI 6120A2, the SB-Z & SB-Zx are 22-Ohms.
 So the claimed 40-Ohms for the ZxR just does not really make sense.


----------



## SaLX

@  DJ - yeah - that kind of makes sense by what he wrote - but now that the 1/8th rule is so prevalent (and let's face it - we've been pushing it here on Head-Fi), why would Creative effectively lie about this?


----------



## stv014

salx said:


> @  DJ - yeah - that kind of makes sense by what he wrote - but now that the 1/8th rule is so prevalent (and let's face it - we've been pushing it here on Head-Fi), why would Creative effectively lie about this?


 
  
 I do not think the specs released by Creative include the output impedance. If I recall correctly, they do not even include the maximum power, only that the TPA chip is theoretically capable of 80 mW into 600 Ω, but not that this is necessarily also true of Creative's implementation.
  


salx said:


> Got to ask this - both the STX and ZxR share the exact same headphone amp - why the huge discrepancy in their impedance values? Why add more impedance when we know less is better?


 
  
 The TPA6120 datasheet recommends 10 Ω output resistors as the minimum for stability, but also notes that this can be increased to up to 100 Ω if necessary. There are several possible reasons why Creative could have increased the output impedance to 40 Ω, for example:
 - the TPA chip does not have sufficient cooling and/or the power supply on the ZxR cannot handle high currents, so they added the resistors as a simple protection to limit the maximum output current
 - the higher impedance is actually needed to make their particular implementation (which is more complex than the one on the STX because of the addition of a real analog gain switch) stable
 - the resistors are used to attenuate output into sensitive low impedance headphones (the STX can have audible hiss with some of those)
 - high output impedance usually boosts the bass on full size dynamic headphones, which the casual consumer might actually prefer


----------



## NCSUZoSo

I have a question for anyone who may know, on the Creative ZXR which slot is which channel.  They are labeled J1-J4 and I assumed J3 is Center/Sub (I know J1 and J2 are front for sure based on their location) and from what I have listened to I think I was right.  However to get some confirmation would tell me if I am getting a placebo effect or not on J3 vs. J4 being center/sub or rears.
  
 http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/13877554/img/Computers/ZXR-Op-Amps.jpg


----------



## chilko

I have Audigy 2 ZS and just got Marantz PM6004 to which i plan to connect it.
 I wonder is it worth it to upgrade to SB Z in terms of sound quality?


----------



## lukas026

hello there guys
  
 I am new owner of the Creative ZxR and Sennheiser 360 headset and I would like know info about it.
  
 I am not completly sure which "Headphone Gain setting" in control panel should I use with my set (I dont want to destroy it). 32/300ohm or the 600ohm setting ?
  
 Also what other settings should I change in creative control panel to get the best experience for games and movies ?
  
 Thanks


----------



## Evshrug

Chilko,
I just don't know... Don't know anything about your current equip so I can't compare.


Lukas026,
With the PC360, I think those are 32 Ohm headphones, so you would want to use the lower gain settings to keep it from sounding too loud.

I generally use SBX mode on with just surround effect activated (I spent several hours one day comparing different % of surround, ended up liking 100% the best but you may prefer 67%, I feel like I need 100% for good rear cues), everything else off while gaming. During movies, I like to turn on the dialogue plus and bass options, with the bass "crossover" turned low to boost the ambient bass (lot of fun). Make sure windows is set to select the sound card, and your games set to output surround. NamelessPFG has a setup guide thread on HeadFi, look for that


----------



## SaLX

@Stiv - great write-up. Makes perfect sense.
  
  
  


chilko said:


> I have Audigy 2 ZS and just got Marantz PM6004 to which i plan to connect it.
> I wonder is it worth it to upgrade to SB Z in terms of sound quality?


 

 For speakers > yes perhaps upgrade for the new features, mind you that is a very good card even though it was released almost 10 years ago .. for headphones no (does your stereo amplifier have a headphone out?? - even then no for headphone surround gaming with the current Sound Blasters).
  
 Maybe consider the ZxR as it's top of the line as was the Audigy back in the day.


----------



## Solarium

I'm debating to whether keep my TiHD or to switch to the SBZ that I bought recently on sale for $65. I'm planning to upgrade to windows 8.1 soon, and I hear that creative drivers for TiHD would not work for it? Can anyone confirm this, if so I may in fact need to switch to SBZ even if it will cause me some degrade in SQ due to the lesser DAC.


----------



## Anarion

salx said:


> For speakers > yes perhaps upgrade for the new features, mind you that is a very good card even though it was released almost 10 years ago .. for headphones no (does your stereo amplifier have a headphone out?? - even then no for headphone surround gaming with the current Sound Blasters).
> 
> Maybe consider the ZxR as it's top of the line as was the Audigy back in the day.


Audigy 2 ZS is is miles behind any Z series cards. Not only is ZS driver support pretty much gone but the DAC in it is way worse and it lack headphone amp. option. And then there's the 48 kHz thing too...


----------



## PurpleAngel

solarium said:


> I'm debating to whether keep my TiHD or to switch to the SBZ that I bought recently on sale for $65. I'm planning to upgrade to windows 8.1 soon, and I hear that creative drivers for TiHD would not work for it? Can anyone confirm this, if so I may in fact need to switch to SBZ even if it will cause me some degrade in SQ due to the lesser DAC.


 
 Are you using an external headphone amplifier with the Ti-HD?
 What headphones do you have?
 What speakers do you have?
  
 The CD4398 DAC chip used in the SB-Z is considered a fairly good DAC chip.
 I doubt you would hear a noticeable difference in audio quality, for gaming, between the SB-Z and Ti-HD.
 Might be a noticeable difference for music?


----------



## chilko

salx said:


> For speakers > yes perhaps upgrade for the new features, mind you that is a very good card even though it was released almost 10 years ago .. for headphones no (does your stereo amplifier have a headphone out?? - even then no for headphone surround gaming with the current Sound Blasters).
> 
> Maybe consider the ZxR as it's top of the line as was the Audigy back in the day.


 
  
 yes, i intend to listen through speakers.
 ZxR is over my budget so maybe i should look for budget usb dac.


----------



## Solarium

purpleangel said:


> Are you using an external headphone amplifier with the Ti-HD?
> What headphones do you have?
> What speakers do you have?
> 
> ...


 
 Not currently using an amp, but will get the Schiit Magni one of these days (hard to justify spending $100 on amp when the HP cost like $180, and not sure if it makes a huge difference for the headphones I'm using). Also using Klipsch iFi 2.1 speakers and HD598 (as we discussed earlier on the forums).
  
 A plus of the SB-Z is that I can have both of my speaker and headphones plugged in at the same time, downside is that the amp isn't really that good with high output impedance. But I want longevity of the sound card too, and if creative is going to stop producing drivers for the TiHD with future Windows OS releases, that may be a huge problem.


----------



## watsaname

solarium said:


> Not currently using an amp, but will get the Schiit Magni one of these days (hard to justify spending $100 on amp when the HP cost like $180, and not sure if it makes a huge difference for the headphones I'm using). Also using Klipsch iFi 2.1 speakers and HD598 (as we discussed earlier on the forums).
> 
> A plus of the SB-Z is that I can have both of my speaker and headphones plugged in at the same time, downside is that the amp isn't really that good with high output impedance. But I want longevity of the sound card too, and if creative is going to stop producing drivers for the TiHD with future Windows OS releases, that may be a huge problem.


 
 I would say be careful with your choice of cables. I have monoprice premium cables and they will NOT  both be able fit into the card at the same time. I have to go behind my computer and switch between my 3.5 for my speakers and 3.5 for my headphones. But at least it automatically switches from headphones to speakers and vice versa in the software.


----------



## Solarium

The E12 and E17 on sale for $90... Decisions decisions, how is the E12 vs the Magni?


----------



## Skipshrike

Has anyone else had odd experiences while playing Call of Duty Ghosts with SBX? It sounds like every explosion is right on top of me. When I use DDL out of the card it sounds normal. Rather odd.

Haha so now I'm back to DDL out of the optical and through my mixamp to the X1's. Saves me from switching me settings around when moving to Ghosts after BF4.


----------



## muksuluuri

skipshrike said:


> Has anyone else had odd experiences while playing Call of Duty Ghosts with SBX? It sounds like every explosion is right on top of me. When I use DDL out of the card it sounds normal. Rather odd.


 
  
 How are your settings in the SBX Pro Studio?
 I'm also having troubles, namely the volume going very low from time to time for no apparent reason; it's no "going deaf" effect after being hit by a flashbang or anything like that, the master level just seems to drop for a few seconds and after that it gets back to normal.


----------



## PurpleAngel

solarium said:


> Not currently using an amp, but will get the Schiit Magni one of these days (hard to justify spending $100 on amp when the HP cost like $180, and not sure if it makes a huge difference for the headphones I'm using). Also using Klipsch iFi 2.1 speakers and HD598 (as we discussed earlier on the forums).
> 
> A plus of the SB-Z is that I can have both of my speaker and headphones plugged in at the same time, downside is that the amp isn't really that good with high output impedance. But I want longevity of the sound card too, and if creative is going to stop producing drivers for the TiHD with future Windows OS releases, that may be a huge problem.


 
 If you install the SB-Z, I guess you would not need to buy an external headphone amplifier, in the future.
 Guess you could sell off the Ti-HD.
 Also if Creative stops supporting the Ti-HD with software updates, they may not tell anyone, at least for awhile.
 I would assume Creative is going to put most of their resources in driver support for the Z series.


----------



## Solarium

purpleangel said:


> If you install the SB-Z, I guess you would not need to buy an external headphone amplifier, in the future.
> Guess you could sell off the Ti-HD.
> Also if Creative stops supporting the Ti-HD with software updates, they may not tell anyone, at least for awhile.
> I would assume Creative is going to put most of their resources in driver support for the Z series.


 
 Looks like they're still supporting it for 8.1, with a release of new drivers early Jan, 2014:
  
http://support.creative.com/kb/showarticle.aspx?sid=61105
  
 Gonna stick with the TiHD's and test out a Magni from Amazon with it, at least with the new prime shipping option I can return it free of cost.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

muksuluuri said:


> How are your settings in the SBX Pro Studio?
> I'm also having troubles, namely the volume going very low from time to time for no apparent reason; it's no "going deaf" effect after being hit by a flashbang or anything like that, the master level just seems to drop for a few seconds and after that it gets back to normal. :basshead:





It sounds like you may have smart volume on. You described what it does almost exactly. 

Also this may be useful for those of you using sbx surround, I did some testing with its values a while back and posting my findings on overclock.net, but here they are,

*
"So I did some more analytical testing with the sbx surround slider. I have come to one conclusion and setting to rule them all lol, 67%.

The reason is I find its the best compromise of accuracy and surround immersion.

The higher I go towards 100% the less accurate the sound stage begins to be. Let me try and explain.

So if a sound came from my rear right at lets say coordinates (10,10). At 67% I can hear that its at (10,10) but at 100% I can only tell its in between my rear right and my absolute right, or (5 to 10, 5 to 10).

Another explanation is the channels start to bleed together. Lower than 67% you lose immersion and the channels start to close off and you begin to get a straight stereo effect without any hrtf.

Hope that makes sense.

For me accuracy is more important so that's why I pick this. Also I felt like it muffled or exaggerated sounds at distances when set towards 100%(as has been mentioned by xshollywood as well before) Hard to explain this one but maybe it messes with the volume and eq of some sounds.

67% seems best at emulating a properly calibrated and eq'd 5.1 home theatre(I use mine in comparison). Seems reasonable that creative would use this as default.

As always whatever sounds best to you is the best choice."*


----------



## muksuluuri

djinferno806 said:


> It sounds like you may have smart volume on. You described what it does almost exactly.


 
  
 Blimey, I think you might be on to something. Will check it later but thanks in advance!
  
 Regarding the settings,I'll try 67% as well. How about crystalizer, is it generally advisable to have it off or on? What does it even do? SBX Bass is more self-explanatory and I think mine is set to around 30%.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Crystalizer is one of those settings that I loath and always rip on for being misleading.

It's supposed to re-master music and bring back the lost details due to compression and make bad mp3s sound good again. Bring back the original dynamic range to 24 bit blah blah.

But in reality it is nothing more than a dynamic set of equalizers that actually decreases dynamic range to compensate for lower end hardware(giving it the illusion of "better"). Only reason it needs 24 bit is to nullify the rounding errors that accumulate during calculations apparently.

So whether you should leave it on or off, my opionion is turn that garbage off. If you feel like you enjoy what it does for you then by all means have fun. But with some decent hardware, you should not have any reason for it. Even with lowly "poverty" mp3s at 192k lol.


----------



## muksuluuri

Guess I'll leave it off then as I have Windows sound settings at gaming-grade 16bit 48KHz anyway.


----------



## SoFGR

skipshrike said:


> Has anyone else had odd experiences while playing Call of Duty Ghosts with SBX? It sounds like every explosion is right on top of me. When I use DDL out of the card it sounds normal. Rather odd.
> 
> Haha so now I'm back to DDL out of the optical and through my mixamp to the X1's. Saves me from switching me settings around when moving to Ghosts after BF4.


 
 please do a comparison between SBX surround 67% and  DDL out + mixamp  combo.
  
 Last time i tried the DDL out of a titanium x-fi it  left me unimpressed, bf3 sounded dull and "mono" lol, there was no sound positioning whatsoever, please share your settings


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Probably should mention that the call of duty games feature some of the worst sound positioning to begin with.  The channel separation for certain sounds is just a joke.
  
 and dont get me started on the audio assets...


----------



## Skipshrike

Like I said, Ghosts is terrible with SBX since explosions far away sound right on top of you. Given how many stun grenades are thrown around in a match... well, you can get the idea of how annoying that got. It was a bad combination with my existing volume problems as I had to have the sound down low to be bearable only to get slammed by those explosion/chopper noises every 30 seconds (slight exaggeration in regards to frequency). This was at 67% and...maybe around 30%? I forget if I tried a lower SBX percentage.  Oddly, footsteps aren't that loud in DDL--even with the perk to make them louder--but that might be my EQ setting.
  
 I agree that COD sounds (guns, some positioning) is terrible. I'm also concerned that their audio tab has only a volume slider.  The PC version is an obvious port, but that might cater to DDL as most gaming headsets a console user will listen to employ DDL.
  
 DDL has freaked me out a couple times in Ghosts because I'll hear a noise I've never heard before and then realize it's a fire, or something like that, near me. I never heard that with SBX.
  
 I'm going to switch back to SBX on BF4 in a few days for a comparison. If I'm gaming against human opponents I am not looking for a vibrant, theater-experience since there are enough distractions. BF4 is getting less playtime due to the color separation bug which starts to give me a headache after a while. I cannot un-see it.
  
 We should probably start a thread, just listing, EQ's that work for us in gaming.


----------



## SaLX

For all of you having volume too low or too loud problems. Check out this post over at OC by Asha10 where he/she(?) has linked to another post about USB, but this actually works for Sound Blasters (and presumably any sound device): http://www.overclock.net/t/1337761/official-creative-sound-blaster-z-zx-zxr-series-club/1480
  
 Try it out - it does actually work - and is very easy to use and live updates the gain as you enter/save the values in dB.


----------



## xnor

Sure will work but keep in mind that it's software gain.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Who cares whether it's software or not. The point is it works for those people who can't turn their volume past 8% without their ear drums being blown. And even then increments in 1% are too big...

That's really the only reason its needed.


----------



## Skipshrike

salx said:


> For all of you having volume too low or too loud problems. Check out this post over at OC by Asha10 where he/she(?) has linked to another post about USB, but this actually works for Sound Blasters (and presumably any sound device): http://www.overclock.net/t/1337761/official-creative-sound-blaster-z-zx-zxr-series-club/1480
> 
> Try it out - it does actually work - and is very easy to use and live updates the gain as you enter/save the values in dB.


 
 Confirmed as working solution. It seems to be the same thing as the 'Level' option in the SBZ EQ, but it allows you to go lower than -12dB.
  
 Thank you very much for finding this!!!
  
 Now I just need to figure out what amp to use through the line-out's stereo direct option for music (only).


----------



## SaLX

It is a sweet solution - the ability to change the gain up/down on the fly is great and I'm glad it's worked for you SkipShrike - that 'bug' would've driven me to distraction or worse. Be nice to have a simple GUI for it. Might PM the guy who made it. Somewhere Windows has changed the default gain for you and many others - this tiny program seems to normalise it.
  
 @xnor - could you explain why software gain is bad in this case, given that when using external amps you'd ideally set Windows volume to 100%? I realise the relationship with internal soundcards may differ.


----------



## xnor

I've written a simple script:
  
 You need AutoHotkey for it: http://www.autohotkey.com/
  
AutoHotkey.ahk - download this, place in your user - my documents directory, run it. Now use your media keys (volume up / down, mute) or Windows + up, down, end.
  
 You can right click the AHK tray icon - edit this script - to change volume step size (default = 0.5%) or stop displaying the volume bar etc..
  
  
 edit: I'm not sure if it works .. cannot test all drivers and sound cards.


----------



## SaLX

Thanks loads for this xnor 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 - will check it out tomorrow !! _*Edit . .tried and failed.. am a bit sconed right now*._


----------



## Evshrug

Sconed... Lol

So, Black Friday is tempting me to return my Z internal and get an external Omni for $80... Minus 30%. Keeping in mind all my music and many movies are in my (now separate) Mac computer as well as several games, what are your guys thoughts?

And the new Schiit Vali... looks cool


----------



## lukas026

just a quick question for all of you - did I do these steps "right" when I was setting windows control sound panel for my SB ZxR and Sennheiser 360 headset:
  
 right click on ZxR device --> configure speakers --> select 5.1 surround --> tick all speakers (front + rear + cen. / subwoofer) --> NOT tick full range speakers --> finish
  
 is this right or should I do something else ?
  
 thanks


----------



## Anarion

lukas026 said:


> just a quick question for all of you - did I do these steps "right" when I was setting windows control sound panel for my SB ZxR and Sennheiser 360 headset:
> 
> right click on ZxR device --> configure speakers --> select 5.1 surround --> tick all speakers (front + rear + cen. / subwoofer) --> NOT tick full range speakers --> finish
> 
> ...



Enable SBX from Creative control panel.


----------



## lukas026

anarion said:


> Enable SBX from Creative control panel.


 

 yeah thats what I did right after that, my point was if there is some special catch when setting up the windows control audio panel...were my steps right ?


----------



## Anarion

No, there isn't anything else. Setting windows audio cp to 5.1 is enough.


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

For me SBX worked best with stereo speaker config and surround set to 91%. If using 5.1 it sounded quite different and Surround set to 67% was best then but Stereo speakers + 91% surround beat it to my ears. However personally I don't know which I would prefer between SBX disabled + 5.1 speakers set in the control panel vs SBX enabled + stereo speakers & surround 91%, it depended a bit on the game. With some games all you need is having speaker config set to 5.1 in control panel and everything else disabled to get a good surround experience.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

But if you set stereo in sound control panel, you won't get 5.1 channels feeding sbx. So all your doing is virtualizng stereo in front of you by using sbx...

And by not enabling any hrtf and just having 5.1 sent to the your sound card, it will downmix to stereo. You aren't getting surround. Which in turn makes it not surround at all.

Not debating the stereo vs virtual surround thing since that's all preference. But virtual surround ends the minute you untick sbx, cmss, dh etc.

Also doesn't your sound control panel reset to 5.1 upon windows restart anyway? That's the behavior that most people get. I began to assume creative had the registry do that as a default fool proof setup.


----------



## lukas026

hmm can you write some more about this please, becouse now I am confused 
  
 is there difference between these two settings:
  
 5.1 surround set in windows control panel + SBX enabled
  
 and
  
 stereo set in windows control panel + SBX enabled
  
 ?
  
 thanks
  
 PS: mind that I am using headphones all the time
  
 EDIT: nvm I just read your post you send 20 seconds before me


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

djinferno806 said:


> But if you set stereo in sound control panel, you won't get 5.1 channels feeding sbx. So all your doing is virtualizng stereo in front of you by using sbx...
> 
> And by not enabling any hrtf and just having 5.1 sent to the your sound card, it will downmix to stereo. You aren't getting surround. Which in turn makes it not surround at all.
> 
> ...


 

 Dude, try playing games in stereo speaker mode and try using 5.1, I could even record some proof with fraps that it won't sound the same. But I don't have the time right now. I'm not speaking about preferences here, I'm a virtual surround enthusiast as much as you are and just speaking what my ears experience with the different settings.

 How do you know for example that Creative doesn't have a check that if stereo speakers enabled + SBX = it upmixes into virtual surround. Personally I wouldn't know for sure unless I spoke face to face with Creative software engineers, until then I trust my ears.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Hey I'm not saying its not different from complete stereo, there is less "absolute" right and left sounds. But IMHO still not good enough to be considered virtual surround. Its very difficult to discern the rears or the front from the rear. That was my whole point. You can even run a 5.1 test file from Lynn audio and you will see the rears and fronts are almost impossible to tell apart. Of course this is with a DT 770 250 so maybe open back cans would make things better but I can't see it increase the accuracy that much. 

Do you find its easy to pinpoint sounds this way? 

Your second point.

I have always made my thoughts clear on how I'm 99% sure sbx is just like cmss3d in which it has different modes. You can see this when using line out vs head out. Different hrtf algorythm due to speaker crosstalk cancelation methods etc...

And creative does advertise sbx as being able to matrix/stereo envelope 2 channel sounds into 5 speakers or virtual surround.

However with that being said, if you set your windows cp as stereo then that is that. The global mixer, puts all your windows streams together and mixes then with the bitrate/freq/channels you set and sends the PCM stream to your endpoint(sbz). So even if you enable sbx it doesn't have any 5.1 information to make proper virtual surround. It would probably matrix into surround similar to DTS neo or Dolby pro logic?

That's my best guess.


----------



## Evshrug

RPG,
If the guy is trying to use his sound card and he wants to hear SBX with 5.1 positional audio, then let him do that. If after he hears that, he is interested in hearing up mixed stereo (like Dolby Pro Logic) from a motherboard built-in audio, THEN tell him how to do that. Maybe make a separate thread about that separate topic. Meanwhile, you're just confusing the issue, which is disingenuous to Lukas.

If you HAVE to tell people about the stereo effect you like, it would probably go over better if you told him "this is how you set up 5.1 surround mixed for headphones like you asked, blah blah blah. Another option you might like to try, which I prefer, is these stereo settings, blah blah blah. I'd be curious to know what you think, thanks for giving it a try. My ZxR sits in a drawer because I found I prefer this processed-stereo method over the 5.1-processed method offered by SBX." I think that's a much more fair way to answer Lukas' question than saying something like "You want a relaxing day of fishing? Ok, first you're going to put down the fishing rod, you need to go old school with a spear and..."


----------



## SaLX

evshrug said:


> So, Black Friday is tempting me to return my Z internal and get an external Omni for $80... Minus 30%. Keeping in mind all my music and many movies are in my (now separate) Mac computer as well as several games, what are your guys thoughts?
> 
> And the new Schiit Vali... looks cool


 
 For: 600 ohm headphone amplifier - pretty sure I read that it was the same one as the ZxR which will would help your K712's (will try and find the article), (was bollocks), plus no noise being external.
 Against: The Omni doesn't do Dolby Digital Live optical out to Macs.
  
 Review here (practically none out yet) with nice pics: http://www.hw-journal.de/index.php/testberichte/audio/938-test-creative-sound-blaster-omni-5-1?start=2


----------



## Radical_53

djinferno806 said:


> Probably should mention that the call of duty games feature some of the worst sound positioning to begin with.  The channel separation for certain sounds is just a joke.
> 
> and dont get me started on the audio assets...


 
  
 Which game would have better positioning? With SBX I was always able to tell the direction, distance and height of a target in those games. The newest iteration may be different, as it runs very poorly and doesn't sound good at all, but the previous games were very good.
 Other games, like Battlefield for example, have much better (quality) sound but, to me, very poor positioning.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

To me I feel like its the opposite. Whether it was virtual surround or my 5.1 system, the cod games didn't feel like they had the best positioning. Sure the footsteps were easy enough to tell but all other sound effects forget it.

With bf4 I can tell where everything is. Helis and tanks and explosions and gunfire.


----------



## Solarium

evshrug said:


> Sconed... Lol
> 
> So, Black Friday is tempting me to return my Z internal and get an external Omni for $80... Minus 30%. Keeping in mind all my music and many movies are in my (now separate) Mac computer as well as several games, what are your guys thoughts?
> 
> And the new Schiit Vali... looks cool


 
 The Vali looks interesting, I just ordered the Magni too... Gonna read up more about it to see if worth returning the Magni for the Vali.


----------



## Skipshrike

I'm thinking Magni, Vali, or Asgard 2. For the music quality I listen to the SBZ DAC is more than enough. I have a feeling tubes will be more of an annoyance, especially with the vibration induced ringing of the Vali, so maybe it's just two choices?

Btw, Startraff 2 and Diablo 3 had surprisingly good positioning with the SBZ. I could hear things around where I was looking so precisely that I didn't use my radar sometimes. (If the noise was close enough). An RTS with sound like that threw me for a loop.


----------



## Radical_53

djinferno806 said:


> To me I feel like its the opposite. Whether it was virtual surround or my 5.1 system, the cod games didn't feel like they had the best positioning. Sure the footsteps were easy enough to tell but all other sound effects forget it.
> 
> With bf4 I can tell where everything is. Helis and tanks and explosions and gunfire.


 
 I tried both, speakers with "pure" 5.1 surround and headphones with virtual surround. MW1, MW2, MW3, World at War, Black Ops 1, Black Ops 2. All had great positional audio. On some maps it was even easy enough to spot where exactly someone was, for example behind an obstacle or inside a building.
 In Battlefield the "chaos" seems to be realistic, to some extent, but it makes it really hard to play. There's no clear information, to me, where a shooter is hiding as the sound feels "all-around". More immersive, for sure, but also much more diffuse.


----------



## Evshrug

About the current CoD positional debate, my 2 cents:
Sometimes near-X-ray abilities granted, especially in CoD4 and now ghosts, but on consoles no height info and occasionally you get used to predicting the other side of a wall that you get confused since elevation sounds the same. CoD2 used to have OpenAL, full 3D positional audio support, but consoles so far just don't.



salx said:


> For: 600 ohm headphone amplifier - pretty sure I read that it was the same one as the ZxR which will would help your K712's (will try and find the article), (was bollocks), plus no noise being external.
> Against: The Omni doesn't do Dolby Digital Live optical out to Macs.
> 
> Review here (practically none out yet) with nice pics: http://www.hw-journal.de/index.php/testberichte/audio/938-test-creative-sound-blaster-omni-5-1?start=2




Well, I'm pretty sure the built-in optical out on macs can send 5.1, but with HDMI as an option it just doesn't matter to me. Wish the Omni had an optical INPUT like the Recon3D USB does, but not a huge deal.


----------



## 77Pat

Just ordered a ZXR from TigerDirect during the v.me promotion. Will be used to drive the Senn HD580, hopefully worth it.  Replacing an E-Mu 0404 usb (tired of the beta drivers).


----------



## SaLX

@Evs - meant _input_.. was  slightly hung-over and clearly saw those photos in the above link showing Optical Out (don't usually drink Whisky even though am Scottish). The Omni does look good solely cos it'll be noise free.
  
 @77Pat . .tell us how you get on once it arrives. Switch off / down all the default settings cos most people say the ZxR is OTT using out of the box settings..


----------



## Evshrug

SaLX,
Bleeeeeeell... It is wiskeh.
My dad used to drink whiskey often, even though his friends told him it was an old man's drink, he just liked the taste. Then one day, a man sat down next to him at the bar, probably only 10-15 years older than Dad, but his face looked like melting wax and had a nasty color and his eyes were all bloodshot... and he ordered the same whiskey Dad was drinking. Seeing a glimpse of the future, my dad stopped drinking whiskey and less alcohol in general (more water).

"600 ohm amp" the Omni may have, but ZxR level indeed bollocks. I use external amps anyway.


----------



## SaLX

A Drunk in Bar.............
  
 BTW Evs .. I've a memory like a sieve - have you connected any external amps to the headphone out of the SBZ? Distortion, noise?


----------



## Evshrug

Um.
The one time I played 2 levels of BF3 campaign, I did not plug in my tube amp because I just had 15 mins and didn't want to wait for it to warm up. So no, I haven't tried yet.

However, I used my FiiO E12 or tube amp all the time with the headphone out on my Recon3D USB. The E12 actually seemed to dampen background hiss when using my more sensitive V-MODA M-100 with the headphone-out on my Turtle Beach DSS.

I swear, someday I'll have/make time to use my purchased goodies. That's why I like versatile items... More opportunity to use them.

Damn, I think I just talked myself out of selling my E12 again.


----------



## SaLX

TY for info Evs.
  
 Everybody: out of interest.. how much better SQ wise is the ZxR for gaming? Any increase in soundstage (know RPG didn't) and overall 'zang' compared to the vanilla Z? Still planning on getting an external DAC/AMP soon to pair with my Z, but was just wondering...........
  
 Zang .. a new word for the sound lexicon.. or maybe not.


----------



## Evshrug

Speculation:
The ZxR has a better and more powerful amp. It is known that more powerful amps with low distortion create better instrument/sound source separation, as well as more voltage swing headroom to prevent distortion from clipping (which doesn't seem to be a problem with the Z either) and the power to keep bass tighter with more impact. So, I would guess that, as long as the opamp was well-implemented, then it would have improved soundstaging AND more "Zang" by more effortlessly having the muscle to do the sonic equivalent of lifting a school bus. EUUUUURaaawgh!

The other thing they tell me is better DACs = better resolution, so that would be like putting on a nice pair of glasses.


----------



## framos917

migou67 said:


> There are three new Sound Blaster : the ZXR ($ 250), the ZX ($ 150) and Z ($ 100).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Do all 3 cards have the 80mW , 600 ohms headphone amp, or just the zxr model. I have a great interest in the Z card.


----------



## xnor

In the real world (non marketing BS) the ZxR does about 50 mW into 600 ohms at max and the Z(x) does about 9 mW. The difference is less than 7.5 dB. (10 dB is perceived as twice as loud.)
  
 Due to the slightly higher output impedance the ZxR is ever so slightly worse than the Z(x) when driving low-impedance headphones. I don't think those differences are audible.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

No only the zxr has the TI headphone amp you are referring to.

The z/zx has a maxim amp capable of 125 MW into 32 ohms. So we would assume quite anaemic at 250+ ohm load.

@ Evshrug and Salx

Going from the z to the zxr was quite a difference in sound overall. The headphone port in the z was too closed off sound stage wise and the bass seemed to be less controlled and just bloated. The highs were also too piercing and not controlled either. Part of me assumes perhaps it couldn't power the DT 770 250 ohms like I had originally thought it could. 

Those are the immediate differences I noticed.

@xnor

There was a site that reviewed the zxr and measured it at 80 MW even slightly higher than the stx. Then there is a site that measured 50 MW...

Who are we to believe? 

At the end of the day who cares, you shouldn't be using 600 ohm headphones with a straight PC audio card anyway. Those who didn't do their research have themselves to blame.


----------



## SaLX

TY for the replies guys.
  
 FYI: for all you Windows 8.1 users there's a patch due at the end of January: http://support.creative.com/KB/showarticle.aspx?sid=61105&h=13 Also a Titanium HD driver too. No idea if this is a general update for the Z line as a whole - they may just be working solely on the fix for 8.1.


----------



## Solarium

Finally got my Schiit Magni to test out with the TiHD... I can't believe how much difference it makes. I'm still waiting for my Vali so I can test them both with the HD598. I never knew amps make so much difference until I heard the Magni... and this is on a low ohm headphone. Pure audio ecstasy, everything is just so much more smooth. Not sure if this the amp's effect of having a 0.01 ohm output impedance vs TiHD's 36 ohm


----------



## SaLX

Whatever it is it works - glad you're happy Sol. Report back to us when you get your other amp. BTW.. why do you need 2 amps??


----------



## stv014

djinferno806 said:


> The z/zx has a maxim amp capable of 125 MW into 32 ohms. So we would assume quite anaemic at 250+ ohm load.


 
  
 Not necessarily. Maximum power by itself only affects the maximum possible loudness without distortion. Although insufficient loudness sounds "anemic" for psycho-acoustical reasons. How much power is enough depends greatly (I mean by a factor of up to 100 for 20 dB difference) on the person and the source material (compressed pop music vs. classical vs. movies, etc.).
  


djinferno806 said:


> There was a site that reviewed the zxr and measured it at 80 MW even slightly higher than the stx. Then there is a site that measured 50 MW...


 
   
If you mean this site, they measured 5.79 Vrms maximum unloaded voltage for the ZxR, and 40 Ω output impedance. That translates to 49 mW into a 600 Ω load. They did not measure the maximum output of the Essence STX correctly, because the test signal had a level of -3 dBFS, and the headphone amplifier on that card has no excess gain (it is set up so that it is exactly below the clipping level at 100% volume and the highest gain); therefore, they only show half of the real power. Stereophile tested the STX with professional equipment, and I can also confirm their results; that card definitely has ~7 Vrms maximum unloaded output voltage and about 10 Ω output impedance.


----------



## SaLX

Interesting stuff. DJ - have you got that link to the site where they measured 80 MW?


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Nvm,I was thinking of the stx the entire time when it came to this subject. I remember now that one website said there wasn't 80 MW into 600 ohms but then another website proved them wrong. I just assumed with the same amp IC, it would be the same, however I hadn't initially realized the output impedance was a lot higher on the zxr...

Adding cheap resisitors to the TI amp chip(safety for lower impedence cans) to cut costs instead of focusing more resources on the power delivery. They didnt want to spend more on active current limiting hardware or protection from shorts. That's only thing I can think of.

If the stx was $199 at launch, then it stands that to include an ACM and a daughter board and extra 5.1 output stage, costs had to be cut somewhere to make it to $249.99. I guess they figured most gamers wouldn't notice the added impedence. As much as I hate Asus xonar line, it seems they cared about their stx quite a bit.

But here's another question, wouldn't the gain settings in the zxr affect total vrms? Or affect output impedance as with other audio sources. If so what's the need to add a crude resistor to the amp?


----------



## SaLX

No worries DJ - yeah, as you point out, with all the extra gubbins the ZxR comes with I'm not surprised they had to make some cutbacks. We know about the ACM module being a bit crap, but it's utility is there. The options for music creators I could do without, as would most of us. Having 5.1 is ofc very useful - but as you said... cutbacks indeed. A paired-down one card solution, with no extra bits would be a winner.
  
 Good tech points btw - hopefully somebody can answer them.


----------



## Evshrug

So, just a report, been having fun with my Z + K712 listening to "Armchair Apocrypha" by Andrew Bird (great guitar, violin, and vocals), and I was having fun. Noticed a slight improvement when I added my tube amp to the mix, not sure what is better from adding the amp or being able to pump up windows volume setting to max (though I have it at 96%).

I'm about to join AxelCloris and play Borderlands 2 for the first time (also first game with PhysX for me, will also set up OpenAL later!), this should be AWESOME!!!!


----------



## SaLX

Whoa - totally forgot about Borderlands 2!! I want to grab Penumbra as DJ said too... grr.. is their a demo???  LOL - you and Axel -sweet!!


----------



## vincedea

so i have the hd 598 and i also have monitor speakers hooke dup to my desktop which sound card would be best for me?
  
 iv been looking at the zxr and the asusxonar st or stx.


----------



## SaLX

Vince - either or really - they're both practically the same for stereo bar the price - same sound quality. If you're a dedicated gamer, then perhaps swing with the ZxR as it's drivers are better (yes you read that right) and it has better software features including nice microphone support. With the Xonar you will kind of need to DL 3rd party drivers as the propriety Asus drivers suck balls. Both are great cards.
  
 Your headphones will be driven easily by both as will your speakers. Tell us how you get on.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

salx said:


> Whoa - totally forgot about Borderlands 2!! I want to grab Penumbra as DJ said too... grr.. is their a demo???  LOL - you and Axel -sweet!!




Ya what a difference openal made in borderlands 2. Just awesome.

I really recommend penumbra or amnesia series because the atmosphere will have you creeped out for nights, especially with full 3d sound. Just one of the benefits I love about going from Asus to creative, proper openal support.


----------



## Evshrug

I don't think I can handle amnesia games... I am a little girl. That said, there is something about watching YouTube personalities suffering through the games and watching their faces as they freak out ^__^

And yep, borderlands Tee Dubba-Yew Ooooooooh-yeah was a great time, I laughed like a nutjob, and Axel is a pretty chill dude, enjoying the jokes with me even though he's heard them before. Good times.


----------



## Skipshrike

Is there an OpenAL starter-guide for dummies? Some of my friends just picked up Borderlands 2 so this sound technology interests me.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

http://forums.gearboxsoftware.com/showthread.php?t=149923

That's how you switch to openal in borderlands 2. 

Generally most games don't need this much tweaking for openal, usually in the options for the game you can choose your audio device. Chose the sbz not generic software as audio and openal should be good to go.

You'll know it works as the sbz panel will turn off sbx Surround when you launch the game.


----------



## vincedea

salx said:


> Vince - either or really - they're both practically the same for stereo bar the price - same sound quality. If you're a dedicated gamer, then perhaps swing with the ZxR as it's drivers are better (yes you read that right) and it has better software features including nice microphone support. With the Xonar you will kind of need to DL 3rd party drivers as the propriety Asus drivers suck balls. Both are great cards.
> 
> Your headphones will be driven easily by both as will your speakers. Tell us how you get on.




Thanks salx. Would you happen to know if you can connect the computer front audio ports to the zxr? I hate that I always have to hook up my mic through the back right now


----------



## vincedea

O and I think I will be going with the zxr, but not sure if I would use the ACM or the daughter board


----------



## DJINFERNO806

vincedea said:


> Thanks salx. Would you happen to know if you can connect the computer front audio ports to the zxr? I hate that I always have to hook up my mic through the back right now




No you can't use the front ports with the zxr, that's why they include the ACM so you don't have to. And to be honest you wouldn't want to. All the extra noise and quality drop from using the front ports kind of negates the benefit of having such a high end card.

And I believe the front port doesn't use the zxrs amp or DAC either but rather the lower quality built in ones of the sound core.

Why don't you just use the ACM for this then?


----------



## NamelessPFG

If you read through the thread, everyone's saying that the ACM destroys audio quality, making it effectively worthless.

That said, I am extremely surprised that Creative no longer offers a 9-pin front panel audio header on the ZxR. The entire X-Fi Titanium line had one!

Maybe I shouldn't be, for Creative neglected to put AC'97 front-panel audio headers on their later PCI cards, perhaps to sell more front-panel audio bays.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

namelesspfg said:


> If you read through the thread, everyone's saying that the ACM destroys audio quality, making it effectively worthless.
> 
> That said, I am extremely surprised that Creative no longer offers a 9-pin front panel audio header on the ZxR. The entire X-Fi Titanium line had one!
> 
> Maybe I shouldn't be, for Creative neglected to put AC'97 front-panel audio headers on their later PCI cards, perhaps to sell more front-panel audio bays.




Considering I am the biggest advocate of not using an ACM due to the sq loss(I have posted this in this thread and others countless times), trust me, I am aware more than most.

However if you are willing to use front panel outs which is rediculously worse and you still need an extension, lesser of two evils. 

And once again why would creative need to add a front audio header when it includes the ACM which does just that with extra flexibility in volume control and its also a mic. Regardless of how crap it is, still miles better than a noisy front panel connector where there is a good chance that it doesn't even use the DAC or amp. 

Just my two cents.


----------



## SaLX

I think vince only mentioned that he wanted his microphone on the front - surely that'd be OK?


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Ya i dont think that should be an issue lol unless he is using a yeti or something high grade.  For most mics I think the front/ACM should be fine.
  
 I have never used the mic port on my ACM before I sold it so Im not quite sure how it behaved.


----------



## SaLX

Soon will be buying my external DAC/Amp to go with my SBZ OEM > there's a fair few options out there for instance the Aune X1: http://www.head-fi.org/t/623013/new-philips-fidelio-x1/2955#post_9884210 and other reasonably cheap alternatives. I think though I'll be sticking with the Audio-GD's. Whether they are as good as either the Z, or the ZxR in SQ soundstage etc etc (depending on price), it is _incredibly_ difficult to tell. As long as my choice is on par.
  
 Suck it and see; though when you look at all the HP's, Dacs and Amps that people here on Head-Fi inevitably recycle, sell, discard and upgrade from, it makes you wonder.


----------



## SaLX

Oh and another thing..  regarding the 40 Ohm ZxR and low impedance headphones.. ie the Philips X1 and other 32 Ohm headphones.... the owner's in the know have said that the bass may have gotten to be a bit sloppy on their phones - they were however perfectly happy and didn't throw them out of the pram at all, but read into that what you will.


----------



## NamelessPFG

djinferno806 said:


> Considering I am the biggest advocate of not using an ACM due to the sq loss(I have posted this in this thread and others countless times), trust me, I am aware more than most.
> 
> However if you are willing to use front panel outs which is rediculously worse and you still need an extension, lesser of two evils.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Gah, I'm blind at times...Head-Fi often moves way too fast for me to keep up, even when I only monitor a few threads at most.
  
 One thing I noticed about front-panel audio jacks is that they surprisingly turned out to suck a lot less than I thought they would have when connected to my sound cards, and the real problem in one case was in my old Gigabyte GA-P35-DS3P's Realtek codec headphone mode implementation, which is noisy even directly from the rear outputs. Switch it to speaker mode, and it sounds much cleaner.
  
 Still, I do wish there was a case manufacturer that took the front-panel audio wiring more seriously...though come to think of it, the highest-end case manufacturers like Caselabs don't even offer built-in front-panel I/O. (There's no need for them to do so, either, considering all the 5.25" bay devices that add front-panel ports.)
  
 I still think people should have the option to choose, making Creative's omission there a bit baffling.


----------



## Radical_53

salx said:


> Oh and another thing..  regarding the 40 Ohm ZxR and low impedance headphones.. ie the Philips X1 and other 32 Ohm headphones.... the owner's in the know have said that the bass may have gotten to be a bit sloppy on their phones - they were however perfectly happy and didn't throw them out of the pram at all, but read into that what you will.


 
  
 Where did you read about this? I haven't had any (obvious) issues with my Ultrasones and they're 35 Ohm too.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

We have been talking about the zxr's quite high output impedance for some time now on here.

Taking from one of the review sites testing phase.


----------



## Radical_53

Yes, I know the talk about the high output impedance. I hadn't seen a single sentence mentioning anything about bad bass response on low impedance headphones.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

radical_53 said:


> Yes, I know the talk about the high output impedance. I hadn't seen a single sentence mentioning anything about bad bass response on low impedance headphones.




Someone did mention on here a while back about what high impedence could do. Makes sense that the handling of low frequencies could be changed due to the impedence. This seems to fit the theory of impedence mismatch.

But I think some people have not heard their headphones with a different source so they don't know what that difference would be.


----------



## SaLX

Radical - don't sweat it seriously - what we've gleaned is that it really isn't anything to worry about especially if you have good headphones. However the effect, though marginal does seem to exist. Any chance you could check out your 'sones with your smartphone at the same volume and see how they do?? May not be at all noticeable in your case.


----------



## Radical_53

I can try that, sure, although I have no idea how its headphone out is specced. On earlier cards I used to have desktop amps to help me with my phones and, while the difference wasn't huge (as in "jumps in your face right away"), it was very easy to spot in comparison. The sound got flatter, less "volumetric", and especially the bass had far less detail and contrast.
 I'll give it another shot though as volume has never been an issue with this impedance.


----------



## SaLX

Yeah - maybe it's an unfair test seeing as your SB is amped. As I say don't worry about it!!!


----------



## Evshrug

djinferno806 said:


> Someone did mention on here a while back about what high impedence could do. Makes sense that the handling of low frequencies could be changed due to the impedence. This seems to fit the theory of impedence mismatch.
> 
> But I think some people have not heard their headphones with a different source so they don't know what that difference would be.




It depends on the impedance curve of the particular headphone being used... that one objectivist guy who got banned wrote a long article about the effect of impedance, but he assumed most headphones would be like the Sennheiser HD650 — which HAS a rather large spike in the bass range of it's impedance curve. InnerFidelity and Headroom have a rather large catalogue of impedance curve charts. I was surprised to realize that almost all my headphones have very very level impedance curves, nothing like what a lot of the Sennheiser's have. That doesn't make Senns bad, just a little more picky.

The other thing to note... If you connect an "an amp to help out," it has a dampening factor like plugging in a headphone with impedance in the thousands. And then the amp's output impedance becomes the only ohms affecting a headphone.


----------



## SoFGR

Is sbx surround "100%" that bad or is it just me ? 
  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BxO9cd-sYA


----------



## DJINFERNO806

During the water fountain test, i found sbx at 100% to be fine, but not the best..  At 30% im not quite sure why anyone who wants virtual surround would even use that as it has barely any good direction and you might as well use stereo more accurately lol.  The uploader only used the most extremes of SBX surround and in doing so does an injustice by not representing what it is capable of.  Its possible they were intent on being biased from the get go, who knows.
  
 100%, while broadening the soundstage the most, it also lessens the accuracy of the soundstage.  I already posted my findings and what I mean by this, I will post it again. But in short, 67% is the all around clear winner in my opinion and the reason why its the default.
  
 I posted this here and on overclock.net a few times already,
  
Quote:


> *"So I did some more analytical testing with the sbx surround slider. I have come to one conclusion and setting to rule them all lol, 67%.
> 
> The reason is I find its the best compromise of accuracy and surround immersion.
> 
> ...


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

sofgr said:


> Is sbx surround "100%" that bad or is it just me ?
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BxO9cd-sYA


 

 Jesus, this vid almost make me wanna retry a Titanium HD. xD Especially impressive at the incoming airstrike part at 15 min, that sounded very realistic with CMSS3D.


----------



## Evshrug

I just figured out how to make good recordings of gameplay using NVIDIA Shadowplay, I'm going to try and make some demos of my own, at different settings so people can make their own opinions. I have so far been trying the default 67% in order to "burn-in my brain" to the default setting as a baseline, but from my experience with the Recon3D and it's similar THX processing, Personally, I feel that 67% isn't enough and rear cues sound behind me but "inside my head." That's the beauty of adjustable sliders though, everyone's ears are slightly different and we have the option to tune it to taste.

Dunno exactly when I'll have time to set up and edit/upload the demos, but probably soon.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Ya some bad news for you with shadowplay, it won't record the z effects as in surround and such. It will only record the basic stereo or downmixed 5.1 sound(essentially stereo in this case).

I assume it grabs the audio from the windows mixer right before the endpoint in order to improve latency and not take up so many CPU resources. Hence your left without any z enhancements.

It also won't record your mic input either which reinforces my theory.

Sucks really.


----------



## Evshrug

Actually you can have it include mic input. Like I said, I think I just need a little time to sit down with it and mess around.

Possible work-around with What U Hear or even mic input... Mostly I just care about the sound.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Ya considering shadow play doesn't really have options for sound, only an on and off option. I don't think there's much you can do. 

Trust me I've tried a bunch of times.

If you make any headway though let us know.


----------



## Evshrug

There are settings... I'll be able to show you. It is entirely possible that it won't record the sound right, but it's worth trying. Would be simplest solution, meanwhile Mad is learning DXToy.


----------



## Tony6225

Looking for a decent soundcard that is under $100, has drivers for Windows 8.1, and works with Foobar2000 WASAPI. Seems like I'm stuck with the Soundblaster Z but it only does 96khz compared to my onboard 192khz sample rate. Will that affect overall SQ? Are there better options? Any help is appreciated.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

tony6225 said:


> Looking for a decent soundcard that is under $100, has drivers for Windows 8.1, and works with Foobar2000 WASAPI. Seems like I'm stuck with the Soundblaster Z but it only does 96khz compared to my onboard 192khz sample rate. Will that affect overall SQ? Are there better options? Any help is appreciated.




Unless you run media that's encoded with a 192 kHz sampling frequency, in highly doubt you'll notice a positive difference. The thing is when you run wasapi exclusive mode in foobar, the frequency you get is what the song is encoded in.

Do you run an upsampling dsp in foobar?


----------



## SaLX

Pretty sure it does the full 192 kHz in stereo direct mode. Not at my desktop PC atm.. can anybody confirm?


----------



## DJINFERNO806

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1rXcJuEsy0&feature=c4-overview&list=UUNovoA9w0KnxyDP5bGrOYzg
  
 I am curious to see what you guys think of this video.


----------



## SaLX

Whoa! So basically get an ODAC and Hi-Fi Mans/Mad Dogs because the stereo sound quality will negate the effects of any surround DSP's. Pretteh expensive.... and even then, just plain wrong.
  
 Maybe one day onboard (itself subject to internal noise) will be better than a soundcard (some of them are very good), but it'll be a cold day in hell that I would want to use the Realtek control panel.
  
 Can't say I agree with this in the main, however they do make a couple of good points. Also -- when they said check out the Barbershop vid.. that's already been encoded with binaural sound information.. it's not just plain stereo. That's a fail. Also fail on the shielding - having openings doesn't been they have magically become unshielded. Sigh. 
  
 Yeah DJ - just been reading your comments on the YouTube page -completely agree.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

haha ya apparently EMI is basically like sound and air and once you see the openings, it can get in and shielding does nothing!  Also they dont seem to understand there are multiple PCB layers that are made to stop EMI from underneath. smh.

So if I was to cover 90% of my cellphone from Radio signals, it doesnt matter because the 10% opening will allow full unhindered Radio waves to get in like air or in their words "like sound".

To be fair I am still selling my ZXR and going for the Audio GD since i want a universal AMP/DAC for wherever I am.  And then I will use an oem Z for the features.  Only reason I didnt already buy the 02 and ODAC is because it doesnt have optical for console gaming.  But if it did, seeing this video would definitely make me buy the o2 from someone other than Mayflower.


----------



## SaLX

Also got to take issue about "missing bass" because of impedance mismatch - a mismatch would cause bass to become sloppier not disappear into thin air. 
  
 yeah DJ.. you are proposing using OEM Z and not!! the Realtek drivers to control an external DAC.


----------



## SaLX

skipshrike said:


> The X1's and K712's work great with the SBZ. Both headphones are enjoyable for gaming. The X1's have more bass and are great for single-player (in the BF4 beta I would use them whenever I played support and used an LMG...boomy noises as intended!). I prefer the K712's for gaming, however, since I am mostly playing BF4 and COD: Ghosts and they help minimize distracting noises.  Granted I still get knifed in the back in Ghosts a lot because I'm trying to focus on the map, radar, what's around me and miss the guy sneaking up behind me.
> 
> I've kept both because I prefer one over the other for certain music....and the X1 works way much better with my Astro Mixamp.


 
 Skip .. hope you don't mind me asking, but why did you prefer the Mixamp over the SBZ with the X1? Or are you saying that, as the AKG needs a lot of power, it simply doesn't work well out of the Mixamp (kind of assuming that is what you meant)? Thanks.


----------



## Skipshrike

salx said:


> Skip .. hope you don't mind me asking, but why did you prefer the Mixamp over the SBZ with the X1? Or are you saying that, as the AKG needs a lot of power, it simply doesn't work well out of the Mixamp (kind of assuming that is what you meant)? Thanks.




I found that that K712 sounded thinner through the mixamp than the X1. The listening experience was bland. The SBZ headphone amp seems to correct this for me.

I have yet to try an amp to boost the mixamp. MLE's tread mentioned that Amos helped the Annies when used with the mixamp. The K712's are close enough to have the same benefit I believe.


----------



## Evshrug

Yeah, I use an amp with my K712's from my DSS, Recon3D USB, and from my SB Z card. Definitely imparts better control and refinement, although the SB Z was the closest without an extra amp to the amped quality target, and I was happy enough plugging it straight into the sound card for gaming (with a slight treble EQ-down).


----------



## SaLX

From what I've read the K series really scale up superbly with a powerful amp.. maybe the SBZ is sufficient, but again from what I hear they like MOAR juice!! Even the ZxR may not provide enough in the end.


----------



## Evshrug

They do scale up indeed... That's why my preferred amp uses a tube in a class-a amp configuration for plenty of voltage and that tube-character goodness, hybridized with high-quality solid-state transistors to provide plenty of current. I've realized that while it's easy to get enough voltage to make the 62 ohm AKG flagships loud (maybe too easy), more current (and lower amp distortion, THD) allows for better control and refinement, which can sometimes be just enough to reveal the separation of soundstage depth.

I don't like things TOO dampened down and controlled though, especially with digital recordings, because it can make the sound too "hard" and get an edge that fatigues me. That's why I like the tubes, it's all personal preference but you need balance.


----------



## SaLX

TY Evs - yeah.. am reading through so many posts that point out that sound engineers DO NOT record for the select few that use neutral DAC's and amps. The majority of up to date DACS (found in smartphones, DVD players and TV's etc etc) use some variant of the Wolfson DAC along with budget amps. It's a complete falsehood when people say neutral is best when you consider that the most important thing - the actual music - is produced to the mass market. Maybe on some niche recordings sure, like modern Jazz, but congested over-produced crap like Miley Cyrus twerking on the iPhone... mmm  (mmm..as in not good, ie not in any sexual way).
  
 Evs.. pls do me a favour - double amp your tube amp with your headphone out on the SBZ.... I know tube amps don't have a ultra low harmonic distortion and so it may not be great. I don't think anything will explode. I only ask this because the new Sound Blaster range as you know simply does not cater to the aftermarket crew who want to add an external amp. As DJ pointed out, the HRTF is designed solely for speakers.. and _I think_ it was stv who clocked that it was a dumbing down measure.


----------



## Evshrug

SaLX,
That IS what I do, hook up my amp to the headphone jack. And it works very very well. I don't have any audible background hiss, it supplies the power to hit difficult notes without distorting, AND I can go from having windows volume set _from_ around 24% to get listening volume with K712 plugged directly in compared _to_ windows set to 85% and my amp's knob turned to the 9:30 position (7 O'Clock is off).

The E12 works well plugged into the headphone jack, too.

Side note: other common DACs today are new models from Cirrus and Sabre. And good DACs with good resolution are being made less expensive than ever before.


----------



## SaLX

*Double amping* (in case anybody actually does a search in this thread)
  
 Wow.. thanks Evs. I've seen _extremely_ few verifiable posts that have actually stated that an external amp (low gain/low THD) can actually be used with the headphone out on the SBZ. The Magni works I'm told; and you would in turn have to assume the 02 does too. Many thanks.... was about to buy a Compass 2, but now.... Project Starlight may well be the answer with my SBZ.
  
 Nice one Evs


----------



## Evshrug

Hey, glad to help bud 

My tube amp was custom-built so I have no idea what the specification/measurements on it are, other than the output impedance ought to be less than 10 Ohms, but the FiiO E12 is a pretty well-known quantity and indeed of quality. Could've sworn I mentioned earlier that I double-amped with my Recon3D USB and Turtle Beach DSS with good results, and would be using the SB Z in the same way without expecting trouble. If you look back, I was trying to say on this page that SB Z + amp (to the headphone jack) helps improve the sound reproduction... I wouldn't have bought the SB Z if I didn't intend to make use of the virtual surround! When the Omni arrives (so I can dual-boot to Mac again without unplugging my soundcard from inside), I intend to dual amp that too.

 Seriously, a good amp doesn't make for double amping problems. In the world of speakers, the soundcard would be considered to be on pre-amp duty, while the external amp is on power amp duty. Usually power amps are REALLY powerful to drive those big speaker drivers, but conceptually it's the same audio path.


Funny thing: the Rock & Glass is absolutely my favourite amp so far (and Zigis has since upgraded it from the prototype I have), but it's possible it doesn't measure objectively "perfect." Don't knock double-amping till you've tried it. Is that Project Starlight a new effort from that garage guy who started out by improving on the Bravo and Indeed tube hybrid amps?


----------



## DrunkenTiger

Well I bought a Siberia Elite and not impressed, will return it and start my upgrade from an old Logitech G35 from scratch...
 So, apparently the new Creative cards here are the best all around option with good software support and features, and SBX provides a good surround option for gaming.
 From what I've read in this thread and linked threads, is that the Zx external amp thing isn't good, the Z is better than the Zx, and that the ZxR is the best, the problem is, I don't want to pay 200+$ for the ZxR since I don't need the daughter board, I do want the main card and the external module.
  
 How is the Omni external thing? I'm not sure how that works and what it is compared to the Z line of cards.
 Finally, what headphones would be good to get for under 250$, SBX apparently works well on most, I was looking at the Sony MDR1, or the MK2 of it when that comes out for cheaper. I need it to be closed unfortunately, I'm really overwhelmed by different opinions on headphones here O: Seems impossible to find something comfortable, good sound, no weird build quality quirks. Help much needed, I'm here with an open and humble mind!


----------



## Evshrug

I am satisfied with the quality of the Z. I'm only getting the Omni because I need something that I can use with Mac OS X. The Omni is in the same product line as the Z-series soundcards, it's just an external thing that plugs in via USB.

The ACM external module that comes with the Zx and ZxR is more of a volume limiter... and it kind of masks the ultimate quality you can get from a soundcard. If you need external volume control, I recommend investing in an Amp instead, although the built-in amp on the Z is pretty good and to beat it you'd need to spend around $100. I found that it wasn't a big inconvenience to leave my headphone cable plugged in directly to the card, though I use AKG headphones with detachable cables so I could unplug the cable from the headphone and use a different cable to hook up to my Xbox.

Of course, the most convenient setup I've yet found was a Creative Recon3D USB, with the optical cable going to the Xbox and the USB going to my PC (which serves power to USB even when turned off). To switch sources, I just had to flip a switch on the Recon3D USB before booting the source.


----------



## DrunkenTiger

Ok, so the Omni and Z are the same price, both have the beamforming mic which is good. Though the Omni is through USB and has the volume control right there on your desk, which is rather convenient. Would the Z have better sound quality given it's through PCIe? The bonus for the Omni is that it's all one unit, and it doesn't have to go into my dusty and unstable PC build!


----------



## lysergix

Hey guys hoping to recieve some advice on a couple things.. i just bought a Aune t1 and currently have He400's but am now in the market for an audio interface and quality monitors.
   
 Im wondering if i should replace the Aune and get a better dac i can use the monitors with aswell and also whether running the pc>audio interface>dac/amp is possible and worth it ?
  
 Ive also got a sbz an am hoping to run the virtual surround through them if possible too. Thanks for any advice.


----------



## DrunkenTiger

So any people have experience with the SoundBlaster Omni? It's only 55$ on Amazon with the 30% discount, I'm thinking that and a JVC S680 (70$ amazon) would be a killer combination, the one thing I did notice is that the Omni doesn't have EAX 5.0, I'm assuming it still has SBX surround?


----------



## Acextreme

povell42 said:


> It could be something with my setup. But I have no issues with anything else and love the Sound Card itself with the Headphones plugged directly into the back.  I am currently using the Superlux HD668b headphone with it.  I am actually getting the Ultrasone Pro 900 in the mail tomorrow so I will test it with those, just to see if certain headphones emphasize the issue.
> 
> I am kinda frustrated that I seem to be the only one that is experiencing a more dramatic change in audio quality through the ACM -  and I have tested 2 of them with the same result.  I will test it further and check out more games as well just to make sure that it is not just black ops 2 that suffers from it so dramatically. But to me it seem like the surround sound effect is somehow affected by the ACM.
> 
> I will agree that the mic is pretty good on it though.  It seems to be much better than the mic that came with the Z model.  I am definitely using it as a table top mic and a mic plug-in extension.


 
 In your post, you mentioned that the ACM's mic is better than the Z's mic but in your Amazon's review, you mentioned it's not worth US$50 for that. I just needed to know how much better is it relative to the Z's?
  
 Is it better in terms of clarity, sound cancellation, sensitivity to pick up voice, or its ability to do its job of beamforming? Maybe some subjective percentages could help me understand how much better you felt it was over the Z? Also, if you have any experience with boom mics of headsets like the Sennheiser PC360 or something similar, could you comment whether the mic from the Z model is comparable in performance?
  
 Reason why I ask is that over here is this part of the world, the difference between the Zx and Z is about US$30 and that I would like to buy the Q701 over the PC360 if I could use the Sound Blaster's mic. The omni-direction and lack of noise cancellation of the Zalman mic that you mentioned in your Amazon review is something I don't think I can live with. So would you reckon it's worth getting the Zx just for the better mic on the ACM over the Z if the difference is now US$30?
  
 Thanks for your help.


----------



## Skipshrike

salx said:


> *Double amping* (in case anybody actually does a search in this thread)
> 
> Wow.. thanks Evs. I've seen _extremely_ few verifiable posts that have actually stated that an external amp (low gain/low THD) can actually be used with the headphone out on the SBZ. The Magni works I'm told; and you would in turn have to assume the 02 does too. Many thanks.... was about to buy a Compass 2, but now.... Project Starlight may well be the answer with my SBZ.
> 
> Nice one Evs


 
 I use a Magni and I like it. Great little amp for music and gaming.


----------



## Radical_53

acextreme said:


> In your post, you mentioned that the ACM's mic is better than the Z's mic but in your Amazon's review, you mentioned it's not worth US$50 for that. I just needed to know how much better is it relative to the Z's?
> 
> Is it better in terms of clarity, sound cancellation, sensitivity to pick up voice, or its ability to do its job of beamforming? Maybe some subjective percentages could help me understand how much better you felt it was over the Z? Also, if you have any experience with boom mics of headsets like the Sennheiser PC360 or something similar, could you comment whether the mic from the Z model is comparable in performance?
> 
> ...


 
  
 I would not pay any money for the mic, at least not the mic alone. When I tested it, while using the ACM, the quality of the mic was bad enough that some of my friends noticed right away that I wasn't using my normal microphone, a Logitech desktop USB mic. As I was only using TeamSpeak at that day, the quality difference may have even been higher in other applications.
 The mic is stereo, saves space on the desk and doesn't need an extra cable. That's as far as the advantages go as far as I'm concerned.


----------



## DrunkenTiger

Just bought the SoundBlaster Omni off of Amazon for 55$ grand total, now to see if the G4ME ZERO from seinheiser is worth 280$...


----------



## SaLX

Just got me some Philips Fidelio X1's..... paired with the SBZ. My brain is reconfiguring and I'm tapping my feet which annoys me... grr. Will be getting my amp soon hopefully (Compass 2... great deal due to the poor Euro.. couldn't resist it) -lol-  it will without doubt do the job .. but I want the AKG 712's really plus a pair of closeds.
  
 Evs and Skip.. have to ask you... the headamp on the SBZ doesn't quite cut it.. even for an easy pair of cans like these.


----------



## SaLX

Drunken tiger -- the PC360 is the same headset mate minus the wank gamer colour scheme. Best to grab a pair of the original black grey versions if there are any left. I want a pair - solely for the mic. Either or, they are great headsets (listened to the original in a fps game with a TiTHD soundcard and they are really good)


----------



## SaLX

The annoying thing is though that using surround, crystalizzer and a bit of bass makes the X1 sound better. Brain/burn in. Get back to you on the games dept .. however I'll be exclusively playing DayZ:SA from now on.


----------



## SaLX

Take it back.......... it a fully back.. peskie burn/brain in.


----------



## Coppermonkey

For those of you using the Sound Blaster ZxR, is it necessary to plug in the daughter board for the main card to function properly? Having trouble figuring out a spot where I can possibly fit the daughter card without ruining aesthetics or blocking air flow.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

coppermonkey said:


> For those of you using the Sound Blaster ZxR, is it necessary to plug in the daughter board for the main card to function properly? Having trouble figuring out a spot where I can possibly fit the daughter card without ruining aesthetics or blocking air flow.




Nope! Mine sits in the box waisting away. Ughh.. Thanks for reminding me how useless it and the ACM were to a $250 purchase.


----------



## Coppermonkey

djinferno806 said:


> Nope! Mine sits in the box waisting away. Ughh.. Thanks for reminding me how useless it and the ACM were to a $250 purchase.


 
  
 Hm do you think the ZxR is worth the purchase besides the wasted daughter card and ACM? I'm having trouble deciding between a FiiO E17 and a Z series card.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Unless you have money to drop, probably not. Also unless you really are set in the op amp swapping capabilities or surround capabilities.

You could just go with the z and optical out to the e17.


----------



## SaLX

I was in the exact same boat. Match the DAC and amp on the ZxR whilst using the vanilla Z? Not that easy. Will update this once my Compass 2 comes.


----------



## Coppermonkey

djinferno806 said:


> Unless you have money to drop, probably not. Also unless you really are set in the op amp swapping capabilities or surround capabilities.
> 
> You could just go with the z and optical out to the e17.


 
  
 No money wise it would either be getting a Zx or an E17, not both sadly as I didn't budget too much towards audio. I do almost exclusive gaming and could care less about my other audio.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

coppermonkey said:


> No money wise it would either be getting a Zx or an E17, not both sadly as I didn't budget too much towards audio. I do almost exclusive gaming and could care less about my other audio.




Pm'd


----------



## Evshrug

salx said:


> Evs and Skip.. have to ask you... the headamp on the SBZ doesn't quite cut it.. even for an easy pair of cans like these.



What were you asking? What was the question? I said I usually use an amp with my AKGs, though the Z amp is okay.


----------



## SaLX

Evs - I can't turn up the headphone to 6... ..........7,8.9,10 are out. I'm not even asking for 11. All I want is more volume, just like the opposite problem Skip had. The gain trick that was posted previously does work... but it distorts a little bit. My new amp will cure it... hopefully.


----------



## Evshrug

Huh. I don't understand the variance in these things. Last night, I had to turn my E12 WAAAY up for my Q701's (it could handle it, only turned volume up to like 60%) from my Recon3D USB plugged into my Xbox, but sometimes when it turns on the recon3D provides much more power. It's weird.

My SB Z is one with the smaller gray and black capacitors, rather than the Gold Nichion Caps.


----------



## Fegefeuer

Did you guys get Borderlands 2 working with OpenAL? 
  
 BF2 is working, SBX is auto-unchecked.
  
 Borderlands doesn't do anything.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Yup I can confirm mine worked. Just follow the instructions on how to switch the audio engine in the config file.

Sometimes sbx surround wouldn't turn off right away but upon entering the actual game itself, past cutscenes and menus it would turn off. It was the same situation with Jedi outcast.


----------



## SoFGR

that's nice to hear about BF2, finally just got my own Z  
  
 sbx surround 67% + 5.1 in games/windows seems to work just  fine in l4d ! 
  
 VERY loud card, i've currently set the master volume to 10% since my CALs are known to be pretty sensitive lol.
  Is there any way to make both outputs (headphone out + rca)  work at the same time ?


----------



## DJINFERNO806

No the DAC can only output to one pathway either headphone or line out.


----------



## Fegefeuer

djinferno806 said:


> Yup I can confirm mine worked. Just follow the instructions on how to switch the audio engine in the config file.
> 
> Sometimes sbx surround wouldn't turn off right away but upon entering the actual game itself, past cutscenes and menus it would turn off. It was the same situation with Jedi outcast.


 
  
 Did all the changes in the INI, there seemed to be a conflicted between the launcher ini and the "regular" ini (both under "my documents"). Weird for a UE-game to create 2. 
  
 Anyway, this is not really new, I did ini changes on the very first unreal games that supported ALAUDIO with replacing those lines. On some newer games it doesn't work. Like Bioshock 2 or Deadlight. Sadly.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

fegefeuer said:


> Did all the changes in the INI, there seemed to be a conflicted between the launcher ini and the "regular" ini (both under "my documents"). Weird for a UE-game to create 2.
> 
> Anyway, this is not really new, I did ini changes on the very first unreal games that supported ALAUDIO with replacing those lines. On some newer games it doesn't work. Like Bioshock 2 or Deadlight. Sadly.




Actually a lot of UE3 Games will make 2 or 3 engine.INI files. Usually there is at least one generic UEengine.INI and one game specific engine.ini.

Make sure you are changing the willow engine.INI instead of the others. 

I would also change the ini's in the steam game folder instead of my documents. Then delete the my documents ones and let them rebuild after entering the game. I have always had better luck with that 

I was changing the wrong one myself in the begining lol


----------



## Evshrug

You just use the notes app, err program, right?


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Yup just stock windows notepad.


----------



## Fegefeuer

Devil May Cry (UE3) 9,99 at greenmangaming. INI editing for OpenAL included.


----------



## LoliPopAudio

Hey guys, long time lurker. First time poster.
  
 I am considering buying the Essence STX or the ZxR.
  
 I will be using the headphones and audio out of course, but also, I have a external TV BOX called a freebox. It has optical out, and I want to be able to put the sound through the card and listen to it with my usual speakers.
  
 Is this possible ?
  
 It's like a bluray player, you connect it to your TV With hdmi, but direct the sound to the optical cable and plug that into the sound card.
  
 Will that work with headphones and speakers ?
  
 can you enable both at the same time ? (speakers and headphones) for playback at the same time ?
  
 The reason I ask is because my grandma doesn't hear sound very well, and we put the sound in the headphones and pump it way loud so she can hear like the rest of us.
  
 cheers !


----------



## NamelessPFG

lolipopaudio said:


> Hey guys, long time lurker. First time poster.
> 
> I am considering buying the Essence STX or the ZxR.
> 
> ...


 
  
 If it's outputting Dolby Digital or DTS? No. Sound cards generally cannot decode those codecs with their S/PDIF inputs; Dolby and DTS don't seem to take kindly to that functionality. All you'll get is silence.
  
 If it's outputting PCM, you'll get a signal on the S/PDIF input, but all you get is two-channel stereo since S/PDIF lacks the bandwidth for anything more than that uncompressed.
  
 Once you get that signal, it should be an easy process to set the mixer to play back that input through your main output.


----------



## LoliPopAudio

namelesspfg said:


> If it's outputting Dolby Digital or DTS? No. Sound cards generally cannot decode those codecs with their S/PDIF inputs; Dolby and DTS don't seem to take kindly to that functionality. All you'll get is silence.
> 
> If it's outputting PCM, you'll get a signal on the S/PDIF input, but all you get is two-channel stereo since S/PDIF lacks the bandwidth for anything more than that uncompressed.
> 
> Once you get that signal, it should be an easy process to set the mixer to play back that input through your main output.


 
  
 First of all, thanks for your answer.
  
 My main setup will be 2.0 stereo active monitor speakers. So yes, it will be for 2.0 only. All analogue from the soundcard.
  
 Can't the sound be decoded with software before getting sent to the speakers ? That's why i love XBMC, it decodes everything.
  
 cheers


----------



## DJINFERNO806

lolipopaudio said:


> First of all, thanks for your answer.
> 
> My main setup will be 2.0 stereo active monitor speakers. So yes, it will be for 2.0 only. All analogue from the soundcard.
> 
> ...




Ya just decode in xbmc using wasapi exclusive so you can avoid resampling nonsense in the windows mixer.

Just select "sound blaster zxr wasapi event" under the audio output options. And make sure you unselect Dolby and DTS support so it decodes in xbmc. 

This is what I do.


----------



## SoFGR

thoughts so far : 
  
 ALchemy works in fear 1 very good  ! eax 2.0 + hardware mixing make the game sound almost  like a binaural recording ! 
  
 Killing Floor is  playable again ! when i was using  the x-fi i could not use hardware openAL (system driver off + H/W 3D enabled )  without getting a BSOD every 20 minutes 
  
 Doom3 sounds also pretty nice ! ( s_useopenAL 1 - EAX 4.0 enabled ) 
  
 sbx surround 67% works pretty well in every software accelerated game i have tried so far, especially the rear channels in  l4d2 and contagion ! much more reliable and "cleaner"  than razer surround i have to say ! 
  
 I have an old philips mini HIFI, connected to the front RCA jack with a  RCA-to-3.5mm pair of cables, if i have someone over then i just put the plug to my the  front audio panel so that he can hear what i hear,  headphones and speakers  play audio simultaneously this way ! 
  
 headphone output is really LOUD, besides the really sensitive CALs, i think that it can  also drive  250ohm headphones like the DT150  with little trouble too !  definately a better solution for pc gaming  than a usb astro mixamp


----------



## SaLX

Merry Christmas all!!!
  
 SoFGR -- there was a couple of fixes posted up a while ago for your volume problem: http://www.head-fi.org/t/623079/creative-sound-blaster-new-s-rie-z/1410#post_10022159


----------



## PurpleAngel

What is the latest verdict on Titanium-HD vs SB-ZxR?
 Is one clearly better then the other or do they each have their own positives?


----------



## DJINFERNO806

I think the zxr vs tiHD is going to be more about features,software and legacy game support than audio quality.

I would not make this decision based on DAC or amp parts alone. 

I think the hardware openal will benefit gamers with the old school bug whereas the zxr will be great for gamers will care only about recent and new games.

Although the zxr's openal support has been amazing so far.

Also the fact that you can output headphone effects through the line outs to an amp is a plus for the tihd.

But with that said I can't stand cmss3d's sound so sbx is for me.


----------



## motorwayne

I want to know this too from a gaming perspective. From what I've read so far on various threads and what I've seen on various Youtube vids, it appears that the THD still offers a better FPS experience according to those who have both when comparing SBZ and CMSS - 3D.
  
 Don't mind which way it flys, would like to get peoples experience though if there are any here who have had the chance at both.
  
 Cheers


----------



## DJINFERNO806

In games with premixed 5.1 which is the standard lately, I didn't find cmss3d headphone offered any advantage in terms of fps positioning or accuracy. I even eq'd the tihd so that cmss3d's tinny sound would go away but it didn't really change the accuracy too much. I figured sbx's default bassier eq would be a disadvantage but it wasn't surprisingly. Strange right.

Sbx was at 67%.

Games like COD4, BF3 or even cs source(without ds3d legacy enabled) is what I tested.

I used a friends tihd vs my z(before I traded in for zxr).

Obviously in ds3d or openal games, cmss3d will always give you superior mixing of the coordinate based 3d sound. 

That's just my experience using a pc 350 and 360 a while back.


----------



## SaLX

Read this > it's very good: http://www.overclock.net/t/1392877/a-couple-questions-about-cmss-3d-dolby-headphone-and-similar-technologies.  I don't know how good your AKG 240's are with games


----------



## motorwayne

Yeah, read that, its good. I grabbed the 240's b/c they feel so nice to wear even if you've had them on for 5 hours and sound great for cheap studio hp's  I had some PC 360 but the clamp was just too strong for me, even after 30 mins. and didn't see any way of fixing it.
  
 I'm really interested to see how this THD will sound, and either way, I'm going to get a new set of HP's...for me, sound is as or more important than visuals for immersion. 
  
 Re an additional AMP to help drive things, what would be a good match for either the THD or the ZXR,
  
 Cheers


----------



## SaLX

If you're in the _big search _for the right / best sound, then you'll have to experiment.. also your brain and ears aren't the same as mine or anybody else's here... it's a pain in the titz, but there you go. Tell us how you get on please with your setup.
  
 As far as an amp goes -- I think either Magni or 02 vendors offer a return policy. Use it and see. Get your AKG's 1st though - then work out what it needs - not the other way round..


----------



## motorwayne

salx said:


> The annoying thing is though that using surround, crystalizzer and a bit of bass makes the X1 sound better. Brain/burn in. Get back to you on the games dept .. however I'll be exclusively playing DayZ:SA from now on.


 
 DayZ SA! Like it!
  
 I'm using a ZXR too and think the sound in game is quite good. Tried scout mode but it is too harsh. I'm not convinced the software in either case is that accurate in terms of distance, I find on both Scout and SBX the distance ques are either too short or too long...what do you think?
  
 I'm running AGK 240 MKII's, maybe these need to be replaced for something else?
  
 Cheers


----------



## Migou67

@motorwayne The AKG K240 remind me a lot of memories, I used them for years !
  
 I have replaced it by the HD-650 without regrets, the difference is really remarkable


----------



## Radical_53

motorwayne said:


> I want to know this too from a gaming perspective. From what I've read so far on various threads and what I've seen on various Youtube vids, it appears that the THD still offers a better FPS experience according to those who have both when comparing SBZ and CMSS - 3D.
> 
> Don't mind which way it flys, would like to get peoples experience though if there are any here who have had the chance at both.
> 
> Cheers


 
  
 Various?
  
 The consent from this thread, as far as I know, was that the Z/X/R had the better surround simulation. To me this was the main reason to ditch my TiHD and try the ZXR. In combination with my headphones, and games, it has been a great upgrade as both positioning and soundstage have gotten much more refined.


----------



## NamelessPFG

radical_53 said:


> Various?
> 
> The consent from this thread, as far as I know, was that the Z/X/R had the better surround simulation. To me this was the main reason to ditch my TiHD and try the ZXR. In combination with my headphones, and games, it has been a great upgrade as both positioning and soundstage have gotten much more refined.


 
  
 Going by the YouTube videos I've heard, linked here and elsewhere, I respectfully disagree.
  
 At least to my ears, SBX has a bassier sound and seems to muck with quality less, but CMSS-3D Headphone's positioning is far more pinpoint and precise.
  
 The anomaly I don't get, though...native DS3D/OpenAL handled through Creative's software 3D renderer as usual, where it'll shut off SBX Pro Surround...and the default headphone mix provided in Mirror's Edge in that one video actually didn't suck. Directionality was pretty clear. That usually doesn't happen with said software 3D renderer under X-Fi MB or their various USB audio devices.
  
 I'd like to see someone test that out with Battlefield 2 this time...


----------



## SoFGR

Forget the videos, SBX surround is here to stay


----------



## Radical_53

@namelessPFG: You're comparing 2nd hand Youtube videos to 1st hand experience? Well, to each his own I'd say.
  
 Honestly, the best advise I can give is to try it out yourself. The difference was massive. Surround sound simulation was the only reason I swapped my TiHD for the ZXR and sold it to a friend afterwards.
 I think I've said this before, in this thread, but I'll do it again:
  
 With the TiHD I got a pretty precise idea of the angle an opponent/sound was coming from. With the ZXR I also got an idea of the distance and height in relation to my own position.
 The difference was like going from 2D to 3D, literally.
 Quality-wise it's hard for me to say as I always used either CMSS-3D or SBX for my games, so I may not put a finger on "SBX changes this" or "CMSS-3D changes that". When I compared music on both cards they were about the same.


----------



## SoFGR

listened to about 15-20 tracks yesterday, the headphone output seem to be suficient for driving the DT150 250ohm but  the AKG K601s were a  whole different story   
  
 Wonder what happens if connect a dedicated headamp to my case's front panel  green jack, set the card's volume to 100% and adjust accordingly with the amp's volume knob ....
  
 beamforming mic along with the crystal voice enchancements was a very nice bonus, finally got rid of my zalman clip on mic  
 '


----------



## DJINFERNO806

sofgr said:


> listened to about 15-20 tracks yesterday, the headphone output seem to be suficient for driving the DT150 250ohm but  the AKG K601s were a  whole different story
> 
> Wonder what happens if connect a dedicated headamp to my case's front panel  green jack, set the card's volume to 100% and adjust accordingly with the amp's volume knob ....
> 
> ...




I would advise strongly against using the front panel output. Not sure why you would want to. Why don't you connect it to the headphone out.

Most worries about double amping were dispelled as some users have already done this with no degrade in quality or issues.

The front out in the z bypasses the DAC anyway I believe and uses the soundcore 3d internal DAC. More testing with this is needed.


----------



## SoFGR

when the card is in  "headphone mode" you can only get sound from  the headphone out and the front panel. 
  
 i think the headphone out is too loud for double amping. 
  
 should i set  the card's  main volume to 50% when double amping ?


----------



## SaLX

Ideally you should be setting Windows volume (which is linked to the SBZ) at 100% then using the volume on your external amp to control everything. That's the Head-Fi "optimum setup" - just use common sense though.
  
 I've got to admit... Windows is playing cat and mouse with the volume (up and down) for me... I'd hate it when I get my Compass 2 and forget to zero the volume dial on a restart = headphones/brain explosion .
  
 Use that trick I linked to earlier..... I'd dearly like to suss out what's causing it..... and I've seen the same thing happening on and off since Win 95.


----------



## Acextreme

sofgr said:


> thoughts so far :
> 
> ALchemy works in fear 1 very good  ! eax 2.0 + hardware mixing make the game sound almost  like a binaural recording !
> 
> ...


 

 What headphones or headsets are you using for the SBX surround to work well enough for you to distinguish the rear channels in l4d2?


----------



## Acextreme

sofgr said:


> listened to about 15-20 tracks yesterday, the headphone output seem to be suficient for driving the DT150 250ohm but  the AKG K601s were a  whole different story
> 
> Wonder what happens if connect a dedicated headamp to my case's front panel  green jack, set the card's volume to 100% and adjust accordingly with the amp's volume knob ....
> 
> ...


 

 I don't know whether it's due to doing my settings wrongly but the beamforming mic is picking up voice from all directions as well as echos even though I set the wedge at 20 degrees and echo reduction! I am using it in a bedroom, and it still picks up sound from across the room to the point that it might induce me to ditch the new plan of getting a Q701 while use the beamforming mic and get a PC360. Is yours performing well enough?


----------



## NamelessPFG

radical_53 said:


> @namelessPFG: You're comparing 2nd hand Youtube videos to 1st hand experience? Well, to each his own I'd say.
> 
> Honestly, the best advise I can give is to try it out yourself. The difference was massive. Surround sound simulation was the only reason I swapped my TiHD for the ZXR and sold it to a friend afterwards.
> I think I've said this before, in this thread, but I'll do it again:
> ...


 
  
 Believe me, I'd like to compare 1st-hand experience both ways since I am extremely thorough with my testing and tend to test old niche games that really put ALchemy through its paces for compatibility...
  
 ...but I'm not going to run out and buy a ZxR solely for review's sake, only to have to resell one of my cards at a great loss. These things aren't cheap. (Or I could just cram the card I don't like as much back into my Q6600 box, if my wallet can take the hit...)
  
 I think the main differences between the cards definitely hinge on the drivers and virtual surround tech. DAC-wise, I probably wouldn't notice much, if any, sound quality difference between the TiHD and ZxR.


----------



## Radical_53

Exactly. That's the difference basically, surround sound and a fresh/different driver branch. Some may like the additional features, like stuff the daughter board offers, but I guess most of us would simply leave it in its box.
  
 Back when I got my card I was curious enough, due to the overwhelming reviews it got, to buy it and try it out myself. It has been sold for great prices during the Christmas season and I've never had any issues returning something to Amazon that I didn't want / like. If you want to be sure, get something like a warehouse deal. 
 Of course it will cost you something once you're sure you want to keep the new card but hey, that's life. You can either stay curious for a while or see yourself right away. The "old" cards are only going to drop further, price-wise.
  
 You'll need to know what you want to achieve. I only test things that are interesting to me and, as time turns out to be rare, I limit myself to things that are practical. It used to be different but then I'll have to admit that I used to have more spare time years ago.


----------



## motorwayne

I can't wait to try both out of my cards side by side.
  
 As an aside: I'm at my father and Mothers for Xmas with the wife and kids, so today I put his system (Onboard realtek) into 7.1 and 5.1 to see what difference it made to the DayZ standalone he's been playing. (he's 75 btw...rock on dad!). Previously he had been using headphone to headphone settings and relying on bi-directional sound, which by the way works well enough because the landscape he's playing in is large open fields a lot of the time.
  
 Straight away there is a sense of aroundness to his sounds but less definite than his normal settings. When switching to 3rd person view, his foot steps sounded like they were coming from his behind left side, in 1st person view they sounded awesome. We switched back to headphone to headphone settings because for some reason a zombie was able to get up behind him without him hearing it, which isn't usually the case, you can hear them.
  
 Anybody else get odd sounds in 3rd person in their games as opposed to 1st person view?
  
 Cheers
 BTW: I owned a Pheobus before the ZX-R...like night and day it was.


----------



## SaLX

3rd person in a 1st person shooter/simulation suks balls. I always play in 1st person in the Arma series. Will check out 3rd person sound. 10/10 on your old man playing it.
  
 Using the SBZ and X1, I have won a few bouts against axe wielding morons/Russians/children - knew they were coming in that door = shot in the face. Quick teabag, and I'm out of there.


----------



## SoFGR

@NamelessPFG
  
 buy an audigy FX to test alchemy - hostopenAL - SBX surround, it's only 40 euros ! 
  
 Quote:


acextreme said:


> I don't know whether it's due to doing my settings wrongly but the beamforming mic is picking up voice from all directions as well as echos even though I set the wedge at 20 degrees and echo reduction! I am using it in a bedroom, and it still picks up sound from across the room to the point that it might induce me to ditch the new plan of getting a Q701 while use the beamforming mic and get a PC360. Is yours performing well enough?


 
  
 I just put it on top of my monitor, no problems so far 
  
 https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Jv0Px9Q89NA/Ur6PX6ZvJvI/AAAAAAAAAKA/OgM60l5k_c4/w1112-h834-no/13+-+1
  
 Here are my settings http://i.imgur.com/0G34ztb.png
  


acextreme said:


> What headphones or headsets are you using for the SBX surround to work well enough for you to distinguish the rear channels in l4d2?


 
  
  
 creative aurvana live!


----------



## Anarion

djinferno806 said:


> I would advise strongly against using the front panel output. Not sure why you would want to. Why don't you connect it to the headphone out.
> 
> Most worries about double amping were dispelled as some users have already done this with no degrade in quality or issues.
> 
> The front out in the z bypasses the DAC anyway I believe and uses the soundcore 3d internal DAC. More testing with this is needed.


It's beyond me why Creative does not add headphone mode for line out. If they add that and macrofx & elevation filter for openal, things would be great.

Apparently there's new driver available for ZxR now (though it looks suspiciously similar to old driver...).


----------



## NamelessPFG

sofgr said:


> buy an audigy FX to test alchemy - hostopenAL - SBX surround, it's only 40 euros !


 
  
 I wouldn't waste money on a card like that. I'd rather go X-Fi MB3 on the cheaper end of things, or SB Z next time they're selling for $65. Both of those would result in host-based OpenAL and SBX Pro Surround anyway.
  
 I'm still wondering why Creative just suddenly resurrected the Audigy brand, though. The Audigy RX is an interesting card; it's PCI-Express, but it has the same DSP as the old Audigy 4 from the PCI days, just before they introduced the X-Fi line, alongside some of their current E-MU professional cards.
  
 This does mean I wouldn't exchange it for an X-Fi where gaming is concerned (it's a generation older)...but it might just work with the kX Project drivers, giving fans of that third-party driver package a modern PCI-Express option to use.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

namelesspfg said:


> I wouldn't waste money on a card like that. I'd rather go X-Fi MB3 on the cheaper end of things, or SB Z next time they're selling for $65. Both of those would result in host-based OpenAL and SBX Pro Surround anyway.
> 
> I'm still wondering why Creative just suddenly resurrected the Audigy brand, though. The Audigy RX is an interesting card; it's PCI-Express, but it has the same DSP as the old Audigy 4 from the PCI days, just before they introduced the X-Fi line, alongside some of their current E-MU professional cards.
> 
> This does mean I wouldn't exchange it for an X-Fi where gaming is concerned (it's a generation older)...but it might just work with the kX Project drivers, giving fans of that third-party driver package a modern PCI-Express option to use.




Its completely possible that Creative had extra stacks of those older E-MU chips laying around and putting them into lower budget value oriented sound cards was a step in the right direction for them.

If you think about it, Creative has been losing ground in the sub $60 retail sound card market to ASUS.

Perhaps the cost to manufacture and implement the sound core 3D in lower budget cards is at too high a loss for them so the older audigy chipset would make sense.

Add in modern drivers with sbx studio, headphone amp and Voala! Competitors to the DGX and other value cards.

Just my thinking of all this


----------



## Evshrug

namelesspfg said:


> Going by the YouTube videos I've heard, linked here and elsewhere, I respectfully disagree.
> 
> At least to my ears, SBX has a bassier sound and seems to muck with quality less, but CMSS-3D Headphone's positioning is far more pinpoint and precise.
> 
> ...




I lost track of those Mirror's Edge videos, if you know their link (some reason they weren't showing up on my searches) I think they would be great to make my guide more complete.
I feel comfortable discounting the SBX test videos from Battlefield, that Freke guy crippled the surround settings for the newer Creative DSPs.

I am getting quite good positioning with my SB Z, even with surround at 67%. DJ, haven't changed it yet, BUT after pretty extensive testing I found *with my ears* that I preferred boosting the surround setting with THX TSP to get a more out-of-head experience, particularly with rear cues. I think that once I've given 67% a fair chance in SBX, I'll boost it up again. Nameless, I am going to send the SB Z back to Amazon soon since I have the Omni, but if you'd alternatively like to buy it from me, I'd ship it to you instead... Either way though I just bought CS:GO and I'm trying the SB Z with that before sending the card away.


----------



## Evshrug

sofgr said:


> when the card is in  "headphone mode" you can only get sound from  the headphone out and the front panel.
> 
> i think the headphone out is too loud for double amping.
> 
> should i set  the card's  main volume to 50% when double amping ?




I've found that double-amping doesn't simply just add volume.
When my AKG K712 was plugged into the SB Z's headphone jack directly, I had to put the windows/card's volume at around 20% to not be too loud. Now I have my tube amp plugged into the headphone jack, the amp's potentiometer turned up to the sweet spot on the dial, and windows volume set at 83%. I think it would be a similar story with the FiiO E12 amp on low gain.




acextreme said:


> I don't know whether it's due to doing my settings wrongly but the beamforming mic is picking up voice from all directions as well as echos even though I set the wedge at 20 degrees and echo reduction! I am using it in a bedroom, and it still picks up sound from across the room to the point that it might induce me to ditch the new plan of getting a Q701 while use the beamforming mic and get a PC360. Is yours performing well enough?



Yeah I'm not quite sure what's going on: with both the SB Z and Recon3D USB, when I had headphones on (so no feedback from speakers to the mic) and turned _on_ the echo reduction feature it actually started creating echos for me. With the echo reduction filter turned off though, I've had several good gaming sessions with another Head-Fi'er while playing Borderlands 2, so the Beamforming mic works fine for me in my bedroom. I haven't yet tried echo cancellation with the stereo mics built into the Omni yet though (that's still in it's box waiting for me to finish with the SB Z).


----------



## NamelessPFG

evshrug said:


> I lost track of those Mirror's Edge videos, if you know their link (some reason they weren't showing up on my searches) I think they would be great to make my guide more complete.
> I feel comfortable discounting the SBX test videos from Battlefield, that Freke guy crippled the surround settings for the newer Creative DSPs.
> 
> I am getting quite good positioning with my SB Z, even with surround at 67%. DJ, haven't changed it yet, BUT after pretty extensive testing I found *with my ears* that I preferred boosting the surround setting with THX TSP to get a more out-of-head experience, particularly with rear cues. I think that once I've given 67% a fair chance in SBX, I'll boost it up again. Nameless, I am going to send the SB Z back to Amazon soon since I have the Omni, but if you'd alternatively like to buy it from me, I'd ship it to you instead... Either way though I just bought CS:GO and I'm trying the SB Z with that before sending the card away.


 
  
 I gotta dig up those video links again myself...
  
 As for the SB Z offer, I appreciate it, but I nearly emptied my bank account scoring a second-hand deal on one of these babies. That metal gimbal assembly...I'm expecting it to have smoothness where my HOTAS Warthog stick has stiction, and I also like the capabilities of its controller board. Should be adequate for my uses, and easy to mod as well.
  
 Yeah, I guess I'm just far more of a controller enthusiast than an audiophile, and my wallet hates me for it.


----------



## Anarion

evshrug said:


> I lost track of those Mirror's Edge videos, if you know their link (some reason they weren't showing up on my searches) I think they would be great to make my guide more complete.
> I feel comfortable discounting the SBX test videos from Battlefield, that Freke guy crippled the surround settings for the newer Creative DSPs.
> 
> I am getting quite good positioning with my SB Z, even with surround at 67%. DJ, haven't changed it yet, BUT after pretty extensive testing I found *with my ears* that I preferred boosting the surround setting with THX TSP to get a more out-of-head experience, particularly with rear cues. I think that once I've given 67% a fair chance in SBX, I'll boost it up again. Nameless, I am going to send the SB Z back to Amazon soon since I have the Omni, but if you'd alternatively like to buy it from me, I'd ship it to you instead... Either way though I just bought CS:GO and I'm trying the SB Z with that before sending the card away.



Here's my Mirror's Edge videos. Since it's OpenAL game (and I'm using the correct device id), SBX doesn't do anything in it though and CMSS just enables HRTF in X-Fi case. Both are tested in stereo mode, not headphone mode. In my opinion, in OpenAL games X-Fi sounds sharper.

Zx:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0qL7BX_XcU&hd=1

X-Fi:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GH5DsUJpY8&hd=1


----------



## DJINFERNO806

namelesspfg said:


> I gotta dig up those video links again myself...
> 
> As for the SB Z offer, I appreciate it, but I nearly emptied my bank account scoring a second-hand deal on one of these babies. That metal gimbal assembly...I'm expecting it to have smoothness where my HOTAS Warthog stick has stiction, and I also like the capabilities of its controller board. Should be adequate for my uses, and easy to mod as well.
> 
> Yeah, I guess I'm just far more of a controller enthusiast than an audiophile, and my wallet hates me for it.




If you don't mind me asking, what are you using the joystick for? 

I highly doubt you are spending cheddar on that so you can just fly a chopper with some loud mouth kids in BF4 LOL.

And the age of amazing Jane's simulators are over too


----------



## motorwayne

anarion said:


> Here's my Mirror's Edge videos. Since it's OpenAL game (and I'm using the correct device id), SBX doesn't do anything in it though and CMSS just enables HRTF in X-Fi case. Both are tested in stereo mode, not headphone mode. In my opinion, in OpenAL games X-Fi sounds sharper.
> 
> Zx:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0qL7BX_XcU&hd=1
> ...


 
 Agreed, golly, the X-Fi slaughters the Zx in that video, I even noticed the cop cars in the back ground properly whereas the Zx was a lot more mushy. Interesting.
  
 Cheers


----------



## NamelessPFG

anarion said:


> Here's my Mirror's Edge videos. Since it's OpenAL game (and I'm using the correct device id), SBX doesn't do anything in it though and CMSS just enables HRTF in X-Fi case. Both are tested in stereo mode, not headphone mode. In my opinion, in OpenAL games X-Fi sounds sharper.
> 
> Zx:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0qL7BX_XcU&hd=1
> ...


 
  
 Just the videos I'm looking for, thanks!
  


djinferno806 said:


> If you don't mind me asking, what are you using the joystick for?
> 
> I highly doubt you are spending cheddar on that so you can just fly a chopper with some loud mouth kids in BF4 LOL.
> 
> And the age of amazing Jane's simulators are over too


 
  
 Rise of Flight, IL-2 Sturmovik, DCS World, Falcon BMS, that sort of thing. Hardcore flight sims are still around, just off the main radar compared to the MicroProse/Jane's golden age.
  
 Battlefield aircraft are too simplistic to justify something like that, even back in 1942 and Vietnam when not flying one with a joystick was a great way to get killed, arcade flight model or not. Now I hear they're pretty much "aim-to-fly" in BF3, even MORE simplified than the classic games' Ace Combat-esque physics.


----------



## Fegefeuer

http://www28.zippyshare.com/v/72259362/file.html
  
 Latest Alchemy Release 1.44.02 with latest dsound.dll


----------



## Acextreme

evshrug said:


> I've found that double-amping doesn't simply just add volume.
> When my AKG K712 was plugged into the SB Z's headphone jack directly, I had to put the windows/card's volume at around 20% to not be too loud. Now I have my tube amp plugged into the headphone jack, the amp's potentiometer turned up to the sweet spot on the dial, and windows volume set at 83%. I think it would be a similar story with the FiiO E12 amp on low gain.


 

 Are you saying that having another amp connected actually reduces the overall loudness level than when just using the headphone jack alone?


----------



## xnor

If connecting an amp to the headphone jack _reduces _volume then something is very wrong, or the amp has actually less than unity gain (less than 1x or 0 dB).
  
 (Or the amp's potentiometer at the position you're using attenuates the signal a lot more than you think.)


----------



## Solarium

So I found out that splitting the TiHD's RCA outs to the headphone amp as well as the speakers have no detectable loss in SQ. Now since I do this, it's so much more convenient not having to unplug the speakers everytime I want to listen to the headphones. I usually leave the windows volume at 100%, and here lies the problem:
  
 When I have the windows volume on at 100%, which is the recommended setting using a headphone amp, my speakers clip even at very low volumes with certain games. If I play music via spotify (320 bitrate) or FLAC files using winamp, there will be no clipping, but when I play games the bass is very distorted and results in clipping. This goes away when I lower the windows volume to 50%.
  
 Why does it happen?


----------



## Wraithy

Hello everyone! After reading information in this topic,  I'm thinking of buying Z or ZxR model. I now have an old SB Audigy 2 ZS 7.1 (I use denniel K drivers) and Sennheiser PC 363D but I don't use its USB sound card because I don't like the positional audio of this soundcard, so I just plug my headphones directly to the soundcard in my PC. Mostly I play FPS games and use virtual surround 7.1 sound in my headphones and sometimes I listen to music in foobar with WASAPI plugin. So I have some questions:
  
 - is sound blaster Z way better for gaming than SB Audigy 2 ZS 7.1 when using virtual surround in headphones?
  
 - is there any sense of buying ZxR instead of Z if I mostly play FPS games other than listen to music? Does ZxR sound much better in games than Z when using virtual surround sound in headphones?
  
 - does 7.1 virtual surround in headphones sound better than 5.1 or they are almost the same? Because as I understand Z/ZxR don't support virtual 7.1 sound, do they?
  
 - and do I need to change any settings in windows sound control panel or SB Z drivers when switching from games to music or youtube video? I explain how it works now on my SB Audigy 2 ZS: So I just set "headphones"  and "optimize 3D effects when using headphones" in SB Audigy control panel and then I set 7.1 sound in windows control panel and it works fine everywhere. So, when I play FPS I just set 7.1 sound in audio options and it sounds great and when I exit the game and start watching video in youtube it automatically plays in in stereo mode, the same rhing for music, so it's very handy for me. Does the same work in SB Z/ZxR?
  
 Thank you very much in advance!


----------



## SaLX

*SB Audigy 2 ZS 7.1?*  That's an old card you have there. Lose it.
  

*ZxR instead of Z?* If you read a few pages back, you'll see that question answered in detail. If anything, it ought to increase the soundstage and give a bit more punch to everything. The directional cues may be better..depends on the sound engine. Music is where you'll see the most improvement. ....but if you're using ****ty sub $100 headphones/sets/speakers, then go with the Z. Your headset is very good if you avoid the USB soundcard - same as the PC360 I believe.
  

*"does 7.1 virtual surround in headphones sound better than 5.1 or they are almost the same"* groan.. that's the PR guys waving strobe lamps in your bunny eyes (well.. they like to think that). 2.1, 5.1 and 7.1 _are terms to describe speakers._ Using stereo headsets, terms like 5/7.1 are soley meant to suggest the surround effect the source outputs: ie the soundcard. They expand stereo to successfully reproduce a 2D, almost 3D soundscape, but in essence they are still stereo; if you had one of those pish headsets with 8 itty bitty speakers in it, then yes.. you truly could call that a 7.1 headset.
  

On the new SBZ range, all that stuff is done for you - on intallation and reboot it'll always revert to 7.1 in the windows sound control panel - and that's a good thing. Just leave the windows sound panel alone. **** yeah ... you change everything in the SBZ control panel / quick flick between surround/stereo on/off.....   there's a good profile save option too****


----------



## PurpleAngel

wraithy said:


> Hello everyone! After reading information in this topic,  I'm thinking of buying Z or ZxR model. I now have an old SB Audigy 2 ZS 7.1 (I use denniel K drivers) and Sennheiser PC 363D but I don't use its USB sound card because I don't like the positional audio of this sound card, so I just plug my headphones directly to the sound card in my PC. Mostly I play FPS games and use virtual surround 7.1 sound in my headphones and sometimes I listen to music in foobar with WASAPI plugin. So I have some questions:
> - is sound blaster Z way better for gaming than SB Audigy 2 ZS 7.1 when using virtual surround in headphones?
> - is there any sense of buying ZxR instead of Z if I mostly play FPS games other than listen to music? Does ZxR sound much better in games than Z when using virtual surround sound in headphones?


 
 Hopefully you disabled the motherboard's on-board audio? in the BIOS
  
 My personal opinion is to replace the Audigy 2 Zs with a Sound Blaster Z, $60-$90
 The Z, Zx, ZxR use the same SoundCore3D audio processor.
 The Z's CS4398 DAC chip should be a fair bit better then the Audigy's DAC chip.
 I'm guessing the ZxR's does not justify paying three times the price of the Z.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

purpleangel said:


> Hopefully you disabled the motherboard's on-board audio? in the BIOS
> 
> My personal opinion is to replace the Audigy 2 Zs with a Sound Blaster Z, $60-$90
> The Z, Zx, ZxR use the same SoundCore3D audio processor.
> ...




After having both the z and zxr, I don't think its justified by the price. Unless you really will use the ACM and daughter board with the high quality ADC for recording. Otherwise its a waste of money. My ACM and daughter board sat in the boxing wasting away.

Now don't get me wrong, it is a fantastic piece of audio equipment and the main card is as high quality as you will get for a consumer level sound card. If it was $180ish without the extras then I'd say go ahead. Assuming it will be the only DAC you'd use for a long time. You'd be hard pressed to find an external unit with this DAC and decent amount of power for this price, let alone with the sbx features.

With that said, I would get the z to start with. See how you like it. It really is a great card for the price. Especially If you dont mind the OEM without the EMI shield(make your own if you hear static and electrical noises). $70 is a no brainer.

Then down the road you can always just grab another amp and use that, a lot of users here are doing that with great results. Or if you ever just wanted an external DAC or amp then just use optical out to retain the features like surround and Crystalizer etc.


----------



## Wraithy

Well, thank you very much for reply! Yes, ZxR is quite expensive but if it's really much better in games I would buy it though. But as I understand they are almost the same in games and ZxR is much better than Z predominantly in music which I listen to not very often and also my PC363D (or I can call it PC360 without usb sound card) are not really made for music though they sound pretty good in music for me. 
DJINFERNO806 from your personal practice of using Z and ZxR with headphones virtual surround in games, did you really find ZxR sound better than Z or good headphones (better than PC360) are needed to notice the difference? Most of all I play L4D2 and all I need is to hear the precise movements of infected. I've used razer megaladon for a long, the postional clues were quite good but the general audio quality was very poor + this headset was too buggy and often turned off while playing. Then I'v got my PC363D which are very good in many games but its usb sound card sounds terrible in L4D2, after megaladon I just can't determine positions of enemies it just confuses me. So finally I plugged my PC363D directly to SB Audigy 2 ZS, set to 7.1 virtual surround and for me it sounds much better than USB sound card. Good positioning sounds in L4D2 almost everytime but sometimes again confusing, I never experinced that with megaladons though their sound quality was very poor. So that's why I decided to buy new soundcard. I hope Z/ZxR have better in game positional audio and it will work just fine with my PC360.
 I'm sorry if I'm asking questions you have already answered in this thread but it takes a lot of time to read everypage. And sorry for my english, it's not my native language


----------



## DJINFERNO806

For your 360, I would just go with the Z. It would be more than enough and sound really nice. 

Unless you need the extra amp power down the road or want to do op amp swapping.

The zxr won't make a difference in virtual surround over the z at least not that you would notice very much. Music is where you'll find the difference. But I would get the z and upgrade your headphones down the road first instead.

Like I said before I would get the z and then if you find you need more power, add an external amp down the road. 

The 360 and the z should be a great combo as that's what I had first, well the 350 and 360. I'd swap em now and then. Some of the best sound stage and sq in a headset.


----------



## Wraithy

Well, thank you very much for your help, I'm going to buy Z, I hope I'll enjoy it.


----------



## Evshrug

anarion said:


> Here's my Mirror's Edge videos. Since it's OpenAL game (and I'm using the correct device id), SBX doesn't do anything in it though and CMSS just enables HRTF in X-Fi case. Both are tested in stereo mode, not headphone mode. In my opinion, in OpenAL games X-Fi sounds sharper.
> 
> Zx:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0qL7BX_XcU&hd=1
> ...



Thanks Anarion. I'm not 100% sure these are the same vids Fegefeur showed me before, but these sound good. Thanks for uploading them.

Any reason you tested in Stereo mode instead of Headphone mode? I'm not even sure what you mean here, Speaker vs Headphone out on the SBX control panel?



xnor said:


> If connecting an amp to the headphone jack _reduces_ volume then something is very wrong, or the amp has actually less than unity gain (less than 1x or 0 dB).
> 
> (Or the amp's potentiometer at the position you're using attenuates the signal a lot more than you think.)




Could be either, or something else entirely. Played again two nights ago (Minecraft this time), I had to turn Windows volume way down back to about 23%. Too many variables to account for, could be in-game volume settings or driver weirdness.


----------



## SaLX

Got my new Audio-Gd Compass 2. Love it.
  
 Evs - when connected via USB I could _easily_ explode my headphones if I dialled it up enough, however via optical to my SBZ it's much quieter - it still get's loud (louder than just from the SBZ headamp) but the pot is almost all the way up. Basically there's something wrong: I always thought it was Windows, but I'm now veering towards the SoundBlaster drivers. Also remember they have an army of greasy lawyers perhaps insisting that their product not cause us hearing damage. Who knows....
  
 I could do the 'gain trick' which was posted up a few pages back... but if I forget about it.... and switch to USB ------> hearing aids here I come.
  
 ** I have to switch the gain to the on position on the amp to get the same volume with the SBZ/optical as opposed to the off (0dB) gain on the Compass ** Hopefully DJ won't have the same problem.. though I've got to note there is zero distortion on high gain (I'd bloody well hope not). BTW .. soundstage I'm finding is wider on this after playing a bit of DayZ:SA.


----------



## Evshrug

SaLX,
does your new Audio-GD amp have a volume knob? Get in the habit of turning it all the way down as part of your shut-off routine... once your hearing is damaged, you won't get it all back. Be careful man... But enjoy the extended freq range of your youth 


(I'm assuming you're a little younger than me, and that your hearing extends better than mine, which is about average for someone 1O years older than me  )


----------



## ezone2kil

Hi everyone I recently bought the SB ZXR for my new pc and am now looking for a headphone to go with it. I am considering either the HD800 or K712 but I am wondering if the soundcard will be good enough for these headphones or will I have to get an external amp?


----------



## SaLX

@Evs - yes it has a knob .. and yes I'll zero it _every time_........ Also I'm a 40+ coffin dodger you young whippersnapper! Bizarre thing is 2 reboots later it's settled down.. the SBZ I mean... grrrr.
  
 @ezone... honestly have a good read and search through these forums. Take your time as it'll be worth it. I would recommended heartily the Philips X1 for an all round gamingheadphone + V-Moda boom pro microphone. Other contenders are open AKG's, Beyer 770, 880, 990's and the AD700.. plus a lot more. Senn PC360's I've heard, and they are superb for FPS - if you play in a team then go for these. HD800 is hugely expensive. K712 I would buy in a heartbeat for gaming and everything. Your ZxR will be make them all sound good I'm sure.
  
 Checkout Mad Lust's megathread in the video games forum for the most comprehensive roundup on the planet.


----------



## Evshrug

ezone2kil said:


> Hi everyone I recently bought the SB ZXR for my new pc and am now looking for a headphone to go with it. I am considering either the HD800 or K712 but I am wondering if the soundcard will be good enough for these headphones or will I have to get an external amp?



The HD800 is great but overkill for the sound quality in games... other than the character of the headphone, you probably wouldn't notice actual improvement over one of the classic "trio" (AKG K701, Beyerdynamic DT880, and Sennheiser HD600). The quality of audio files in games is the limiting factor, you may notice a bigger improvement with music and HD tracks.

I have a K712, and I like it very much. However, it doesn't blow me away compared to the Q701 I've been rockin for a year and a half... mostly still a great engaging sound, the K712 just seems a bit more refined and comfortable to wear (headband). Both are driven adequately from my Sound Blaster Z card, though I generally prefer tube amps for their pleasing coloration... plugging my headphone straight into the Z doesn't seem any worse than amping with my FiiO E12.

Recommendation from my experience: Sound Blaster Z + Q701, and later, just for fun, buy a Schiit Vali or Garage1214 Starlight or Sunrise III tube hybrid amp to emphasize the soundstage and make the midrange more lush  GREAT setup for gaming and music that made me fall in love.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Ya my 15.32 already blew my hearing once because I forgot it was on high gain at 12 o clock.... Good bye tympanic membrane...

Its weird having a volume knob now as opposed to controlling windows volume. That's one thing I liked about the zxr.


----------



## PurpleAngel

Anyone on this thread try using a AKG Q701 plugged directly into a Sound Blaster Z (or Zx)?
 Does the combo work well together?


----------



## SoFGR

I tried AKG K601s last night, gaming wise (rising storm - l4d2 - insurgency )  it was PERFECT ! CALs are already very good for soundwhoring  but if was about to join  a tournament  i would use the AKGs since they're  super comfortable and the soundstage is more defined + bigger  ! 
 I had to use to raise the volume substastianlly ( 56-60 vs 16-20 % on 32ohm headphones ) and sound was kind of "harsh", it was actually a bit painfull


----------



## Anarion

evshrug said:


> Thanks Anarion. I'm not 100% sure these are the same vids Fegefeur showed me before, but these sound good. Thanks for uploading them.
> 
> Any reason you tested in Stereo mode instead of Headphone mode? I'm not even sure what you mean here, Speaker vs Headphone out on the SBX control panel?



Mostly, because, well, headphone out is unusable loud with these headphones. Headphone mode also has this "in your head" kind of HRTF. While it might be more accurate, it _*sounds*_ worse in my opinion. SBX wouldn't be enabled in that game anyway since it's OpenAL game and I did not use generic software mode. Headphone out and line out have different HRTF in OpenAL games and if you have SBX enabled. Same situation with X-Fi. It is kinda annoying that you can't enable headphone mode when using line out since the headphone out can be unusable with headphones. Even with line out, ACM is a must.


----------



## chicolom

Anyone have experience using the Sound Blaster's ASIO drivers for applications where ASIO drivers REALLY count, meaning low-latency music production/live software instrument playing? 
  
 I use midi controllers to trigger sample libraries (pianos, EPs, organs, etc.) and getting the latency/buffer as low as possible is important as every _millisecond _counts when your playing.
 I've always had to fall back to ASIO4ALL drivers to get the latency down.  I'm pleased to see that I'll have some "native" ASIO support with the SB Z.


----------



## Migou67

As I read before when I was evaluating the card, the latency time with the native ASIO driver is about 1ms or 2ms, if someone here can confirm that it will be a realy good latency for the musicians, for me the higher acceptable value is no more than 8ms


----------



## Evshrug

anarion said:


> Mostly, because, well, headphone out is unusable loud with these headphones. Headphone mode also has this "in your head" kind of HRTF. While it might be more accurate, it _*sounds*_ worse in my opinion. SBX wouldn't be enabled in that game anyway since it's OpenAL game and I did not use generic software mode. Headphone out and line out have different HRTF in OpenAL games and if you have SBX enabled. Same situation with X-Fi. It is kinda annoying that you can't enable headphone mode when using line out since the headphone out can be unusable with headphones. Even with line out, ACM is a must.




I see... Can you confirm that Mirror's Edge in OpenAL mode sounds _exactly_ the same in either Headphone or Speaker mode, or better yet, post another video with same settings except in headphone mode? I think you understand that the trade-off between headphone and speaker mode HRTFs will be largely decided by individual taste, earshape, and headphone. Plus it's harder to fairly represent SBX in comparison to other surround DSPs if most people are going to naturally choose the default headphone mode. If you don't want to, just tell me how you recorded it and I'll make a Borderlands 2 sample.


----------



## Fegefeuer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHhwUT4BYMk&hd=1
  
 My Mirror's Edge CMSS-3D Headphone Mode


----------



## Anarion

evshrug said:


> I see... Can you confirm that Mirror's Edge in OpenAL mode sounds _exactly_ the same in either Headphone or Speaker mode, or better yet, post another video with same settings except in headphone mode? I think you understand that the trade-off between headphone and speaker mode HRTFs will be largely decided by individual taste, earshape, and headphone. Plus it's harder to fairly represent SBX in comparison to other surround DSPs if most people are going to naturally choose the default headphone mode. If you don't want to, just tell me how you recorded it and I'll make a Borderlands 2 sample.



Here (still processing so HD options will take some time to show up): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXhqJbVUePQ&hd=1
SBX is irrelevant in this test since it gets disabled because this is OpenAL game and I'm not using generic software.

Funny... I think it sounds different now than last time. Sharper than than the stereo mode and, to be honest, it's nowhere near "in your head" like. :blink: Well, drivers have changed but kinda weird...


----------



## chicolom

fegefeuer said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHhwUT4BYMk&hd=1
> 
> My Mirror's Edge CMSS-3D Headphone Mode


 
  
 I LOLed at the very end.


----------



## Fegefeuer

anarion said:


> Here (still processing so HD options will take some time to show up): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXhqJbVUePQ&hd=1
> SBX is irrelevant in this test since it gets disabled because this is OpenAL game and I'm not using generic software.
> 
> Funny... I think it sounds different now than last time. Sharper than than the stereo mode and, to be honest, it's nowhere near "in your head" like.
> ...


 
  
 Did you have a clean Windows installation when installing our Z-series card? I had a few problems with conflicts that weren't very clear and logical after I uninstalled my X-Fi and installed the ZxR. 
  
 One nasty problem is either rear right or rear left to be louder (test it with the speaker panel of Windows) and another is OpenAL to not pan smooth. Creative's driver remains are the worst of all time. OF ALL TIME
  


chicolom said:


> I LOLed at the very end.


 
  




  
 Mirror's Edge is such a beautiful game. One of my all-time favorites. That powerful ambience created by Solar Fields with a fantastic minimalistic world to run and jump through. It's like a dream. I hope they keep the formula for ME2 but I doubt it. It'll probably get a UI, questlog and blinking idiots/video calls that appear on the screen because they have something to say.
  
 That disconnect between life below in the streets and the other world above that rebels against the system is a important part of this game. It should be kept.


----------



## Anarion

^^It's impossible that there was some kind of issue. I've upgraded to Windows 8.1 though technically that was upgrade installation (or Zx has now issues in 8.1 that make headphone mode sound better than what it was ).


----------



## SaLX

I've occasionally read claims here and there that Windows 8 has a cleaner sound (less processing??) than W7. I completely dismissed the very idea.....


----------



## EarwaxDAC

I finally ordered a ZxR for the price I wanted. Online it went from 179 to 224 after the new year, but today it dropped to 189-199 and one retailer is also offering a $30 MIR, which puts the final price at $159. That works for me.
  
 Maybe by the time it arrives creaf will have their Windows 8.1 driver posted?


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Just picked up my Z retail on sale(oem was actually more expensive lol) and connected it to optical in on my NFB 15.32.  Amazing  No issues whatsoever. Just have to tape those damn led's or I might actually cut them off I dont know yet.
  
 Sal,  I didn't have to adjust the volume higher or switch to hi gain on my 15.32.  The windows digital volume was set at 100% and I only had to use the knob on my 15.32 at rought 12 o clock(50%) at low gain.  Same as the USB input.  BF4 was the only game that I needed to increase it to roughly 2 o clock or 65%.
  
 So seems optical out works just fine, no driver issues on my end. 
  
 Almost destroyed my ears though when I plugged my xbox 360 into the amp.  Forgot I had set Dolby digital in the audio options and so it was a garbled mess.  Kind of a shame since I would have to switch from stereo PCM to Dolby whenever I want to use my AVR.  Oh well. lol


----------



## SaLX

Nice one DJ - glad the SBZ works flawlessly with the 15.32 for you 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Basically, we now have (sort of) supercharged Z's (lol.. exaggeration). I'd like to think that this setup at least matches, if not exceeds the ZxR. Silly thing to say.. of course it will. The amp alone says it all. Hoping for your feedback/comparison for games/movies when you're ready, but you did indicate in an earlier post that it's better for music for now.
  
 I actually returned my OEM a while back and got a Z retail in exchange because it was a lower price than the OEM.  Now I have to deal with that damned LED too. Why didn't Creative stick with the blue colour scheme? Also I think the CP would look more professional. The sound volume problem I was having has magically sorted it out... I'll always be zeroing the volume on the Audio_gd just in case.
  
 I haven't played around much with USB, but TBH optical works perfectly via the SBZ and really who plays 32bit audio files all the time?


----------



## Anarion

Something has definitely happened... Virtual surround in non-openal situation (i.e. SBX, headphone mode) is MUCH, MUCH better now that what it was before. I have no idea what caused this... It's incredible accurate and not even remotely in your head. I can only guess that old X-Fi driver things were messing up the sound somehow (even though I tried to get rid of them). Huh... Skyrim sounds totally different now.


----------



## chicolom

fegefeuer said:


> Mirror's Edge is such a beautiful game. One of my all-time favorites. That powerful ambience created by Solar Fields with a fantastic minimalistic world to run and jump through. It's like a dream. I hope they keep the formula for ME2 but I doubt it. It'll probably get a UI, questlog and blinking idiots/video calls that appear on the screen because they have something to say.
> 
> That disconnect between life below in the streets and the other world above that rebels against the system is a important part of this game. It should be kept.


 
  
  
 Yes.
  
 All of those things are what made it special. 
 After playing it I went out and added a bunch of Solar Fields (and similar ambient music) to my music library.


----------



## SaLX

Anarion.. are you tempted to perhaps post up some new revised vids??
  
 **Note to self: I have to try Mirror's Edge**


----------



## Anarion

salx said:


> Anarion.. are you tempted to perhaps post up some new revised vids??
> 
> **Note to self: I have to try Mirror's Edge**



I can't test X-Fi in headphone mode any more but the past test was accurate for stereo (speaker) mode for both cards and the new Mirror's Edge video is accurate for headphone mode.

However... SBX on/off testing would be doable now in non-OpenaL game.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

salx said:


> Nice one DJ - glad the SBZ works flawlesslyp with the 15.32 for you    Basically, we now have (sort of) supercharged Z's (lol.. exaggeration). I'd like to think that this setup at least matches, if not exceeds the ZxR. Silly thing to say.. of course it will. The amp alone says it all. Hoping for your feedback/comparison for games/movies when you're ready, but you did indicate in an earlier post that it's better for music for now.
> 
> I actually returned my OEM a while back and got a Z retail in exchange because it was a lower price than the OEM.  Now I have to deal with that damned LED too. Why didn't Creative stick with the blue colour scheme? Also I think the CP would look more professional. The sound volume problem I was having has magically sorted it out... I'll always be zeroing the volume on the Audio_gd just in case.
> 
> I haven't played around much with USB, but TBH optical works perfectly via the SBZ and really who plays 32bit audio files all the time?




Ya I think this setup is the way to go for sure in place of the zxr if you want external unit with sbx surround.

Lol 32 bit? I keep the windows mixer settings at 16 bit. I only ever do 24 bit through wasapi exclusive or asio in foobar. 

I do think I will be happy with this setup for a really long time so I am glad there is that future proof element.

I do find the sound to be a little warmer and a little more emphasis on the lows which sbx already gives a tad. But its nothing crazy. Its actually pleasing since my dt770s can be pretty flat and I like bass. More fun during gameplay for explosions and the low cracks of sniper rifles in bf4 is insane. Doesn't detract from details at all either.

I was in audio hell these last 2 weeks with regular stereo for gaming lol.

@Anarion

Finally you can hear sbx surround like the rest of us lol. I knew something had to be wrong from the first time you described the reason for your dislike. It seemed like you were hearing a broken stereo enveloped effect.

How do you find sbx over cmss3d in premixed 5.1 games?


----------



## SaLX

Well, I'm _immensely pleased _with my audio right now. I only came here on head-Fi to find out what to snap buy in terms of a decent setup, but I got to asking a few questions and you were all ultra helpful. I won't gush and give a roll call to all who helped, but TY the lot of you.
  
 @DJ: 48 bit is the New Black btw.. we will _never keep up_. Nice to see your Wolfson amp doing it's thing on your DT's, and if and when you get your K712's, you'll be in shooter heaven (or something) with the SBZ+15.32.
  
 We've got a SBX convert hopefully in Brother Anarion


----------



## Anarion

djinferno806 said:


> @Anarion
> 
> Finally you can hear sbx surround like the rest of us lol. I knew something had to be wrong from the first time you described the reason for your dislike. It seemed like you were hearing a broken stereo enveloped effect.
> 
> How do you find sbx over cmss3d in premixed 5.1 games?



It's definitely better in my opinion, it sounds more natural.

I have small issue with headphone out though... Flash audio & video is incredibly loud.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

That's a common complaint with the z and flash content. I thought they had fixed it.


----------



## Anarion

Crystalizer doesn't seem to be that bad if SBX is on.

I do think that these headphones sound better through line out though. It's a shame that it's not possible to select headphone mode for line out.


----------



## motorwayne

I am waiting for a new pair of X1's to arrive so that I can test the Titanium HD and ZxR out. I'm sort of suspicious the TiHD is more pinpoint accurate.
  
 When I switched between SBX and Scout mode on the ZxR, Scout Mode seemed too loud in terms of range to target, so it (Gun fire) sounded closer than it actually was and the SBX felt better in terms of volume to target, but sort of mushy vague.
  
 Clear as mud, it's going to be interesting.
  
  
  
 Wayne


----------



## bizkid

I bought the Soundblaster Z today, great little card for 60$. Headphone output sounds surprisingly good so far with my Audio-Technicas. I will use the SBZ as a source for the Vali.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

bizkid said:


> I bought the Soundblaster Z today, great little card for 60$. Headphone output sounds surprisingly good so far with my Audio-Technicas. I will use the SBZ as a source for the Vali.




Let us know how the headphone out to vali chain sounds. I'm curious as to how loud it gets.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

So I did some in depth testing with optical out to my reciever.

These conclusions are valid for both the z and zxr as I owned both.

Some info for some of you first.

Dolby live only supports 16/48 max and DTS connect supports 24/48 max.

So setting it higher(in both speaker or spdif devices) may result in the sbz downmixing to DTS or DD specs anyways when it sends the bitstream.

This is where I did my testing. My reciever displays the stream frequency and bit rate on my TV as an OSD.

As it turns out, when in DD or DTS encoding mode, the frequency and bitrate in windows don't matter. The
Encoder specifies its own max rates and frequencies as per the dolby and DTS max specs I listed above. So as long as your receiver supports DTS or DD, it should receive the signal and it gets decoded as usual. 

The frequency and rate on windows only matters in stereo regular mode. Meaning without encoding on. When using either the speaker or spdif devices.

What also matters is whether you set headphone or 5.1 speaker mode. To get all 5 channels you need to set 5.1 speaker mode in the sbz panel. This one seems obvious however you wouldn't believe the amount of people I hear complain and then it turns out this was the reason.

Also there is quite a bit of delay for both encoding methods. I estimate roughly 100ms of delay which is bad for gaming and very unimmersive. Effectively making the z terrible for 5.1 gaming through optical to speakers.

Basically unusable. Stereo with sbx surround on is the only way to go realistically.


----------



## SaLX

TY for doing that test DJ. That's pretty disappointing. Did you conduct the same test with your old ZxR?


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Ya exact same testing with the same results.

Only thing is I wanted to wait to put these results out until I had both. But i wasn't expecting a change in results since they both use the same DSP chip.

From what I am hearing DD live and DTS algorithms are responsible for the delay and no matter what spu you have it will be the same delay. Creative reps confirmed this over on their support forums years ago apparently.

I would like to hear from x-fi owners too if they get a delay as well? It seems 50/50 of owners experience this. Might just be some people aren't very perceptive to this delay similar to them not noticing above 60 fps. Lag can be subjective depending on how your brain processes what it sees and hears.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Double post.


----------



## Anarion

djinferno806 said:


> That's a common complaint with the z and flash content. I thought they had fixed it.



I ended up reinstalling windows 8.1 pro from scratch directly from 8.1 pro iso, I don't have that issue any more (I had corrupted W8 pro install before upgrading to W8.1 pro thanks to faulty memory so it was about time to do the reinstall).


----------



## DJINFERNO806

anarion said:


> I ended up reinstalling windows 8.1 pro from scratch directly from 8.1 pro iso, I don't have that issue any more.




I never did however a lot of people did apparently.

Glad your z is behaving itself now.


----------



## SaLX

Ooops.. wasn't wearing my spectacles - you mentioned the ZxR as well - sorry.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

salx said:


> Ooops.. wasn't wearing my spectacles - you mentioned the ZxR as well - sorry.




Lol no no I edited that later because you mentioned it. I figured that it would be best to mention that lol.

Your eyesight is still fine


----------



## bizkid

After more time with my headphones i can only recommend the SBZ. It's headphone output is punchy with strong bass and lively. Very nice for the price.


----------



## SaLX

@DJ - do Xonar's exhibit the same kind of delay?


----------



## DJINFERNO806

No idea. Never tried optical on my STX.

I mean I want to believe its the nature of the encoding itself but the consoles do it fine without the delay. And their DSPs are nothing to write home about either.


----------



## EarwaxDAC

I have acquired a ZxR for evaluation. (edit: Just to be clear, I bought one, am having some problems with it, and if they don't get resolved it will be returned. Everything else is just experimentation as a hobbyist.)
  
 Since I am mainly playing CSGO I have to ask, does anyone else have a Z series with CSGO they could test and confirm some of the results I am getting?


----------



## GrowAPear

I'm not sure how good I am at testing audio, but I mainly play CSGO with Soundblaster Z SBX so if you need a second opinion I could give it a shot.


----------



## SaLX

Earwax.. what problems are you having with it? I do not own the game, however I'm interested in what you've got to say about it.


----------



## blazer78

Just got the SBZ, luckily mine came with Nichicon Gold Caps 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I do have a question though, the optical out port seems to be offset on the rear bracket, and hence my audioquest optical cables don't exactly "click" into the optical port (it works though, just not fully connected). I was wondering if anyone knew whether there were any slim adapters that could help protrude the optical port?


----------



## EarwaxDAC

Problem description: Friends ask, "Why does it sound like there's a groaning pig in the background of your mic? You need to record yourself and hear this. It doesn't sound better than your Realtek, it sounds worse."
  
 For the most part, the pig sound only happens when I'm in CSGO. I believe it is EMI noise from components inside my case. I can recreate some noise when doing other intensive things like running 3DMark, but nothing compared to CSGO.
  
 I've taken a large number of recordings to test everything out.
  
 If you care to know those details, they are:


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



Motherboard: Asus P8Z77-V LK
 CPU: Intel i5-3570k
 GPU: Asus GTX670-DC2-2GD5
 OS: Windows 8.1
  
 Test Microphones:
 Rosetta Stone VoIP Headset Mic
 Creative Labs ACM Mic (used only with ZxR)
 Clip-on Lapel Mic
  
 Sound Cards and ports:
 Creative Labs ZxR ACM Mic Port
 Realtek ACM887 Front Panel HD Audio Mic Port
 Realtek ACM887 Back Mic Port
  
 Recording Software: Audacity 2.0.5 Link
 Reference Wav: First 14 seconds of this public domain wav Link
 Player: Nexus4 on 100% volume with X-Mini speaker at 50% volume.
  
 Methods used to obtain recordings:
 I used the reference wav because I hate the sound of my own voice. It is public domain so long as I name the source, and the particular segment of the recording is conveniently self-cited.
  
 I noted the bitrate and sample rate configured in Windows and matched this in Audacity quality settings.
 Gain settings ('mic boost') were also tested and noted.
  
 In most recordings, my lapel mic was 8 inches away from my speaker. Other positions are noted as such.
 Creative ACM recordings had the speaker held in front of my mouth at a natural distance from the ACM.
 Rosetta Stone headset recordings had the speaker held near my mouth at a natural distance from the directional boom mic.
 The final performance had the lapel mic clipped to my shirt in a natural position with the speaker held at my mouth.
  
*Total recordings:* 19
  
 Results:
 I've yet to really compare them or do any blind tests on subjects to determine what the 'best' hardware and configuration is in comparison to the reference wav.


  
 The Final Performance is the main problem I am having. In this test you can hear me:

Start the recording in Audacity
Open CSGO
Connect to my local LAN server
Type-in the rcon_password and issue a bot_kick command
Click my mouse shooting a pistol
Play the reference sound
Alt-Tab out of CSGO (the noise stops here, which coincides with the GPU going to a lower utilization %)
Stop the recording
  
 Characteristics: ZxR Lapel Mic via ACM, 90% mic volume, no effects, no alchemy, normal sounds settings in CSGO.
  
*Here is that file: *Link 
 (This 16mb file will be replaced by an mp3 at some point) 
  
  
 Edit:
 I did some more tests while recording inside of CSGO.
 ACM alone: No noise
  
 My lapel mic is 1/8" mono. I get pig noise when its plugged into the 1/8 mic input on the ACM.
 Remove mic. Add a 1/8" to 1/4" adapter to 1/4 mic socket, no noise.
 Plug 1/8 mono lapel mic into 1/8<>1/4 adapter, pig noise returns
  
 Remove ACM 1/4" jack from back of ZxR, silent (of course)
 Plug 1/8<>1/4 adapter into 1/4 mic jack on back of ZxR, low level white noise
 Plug 1/8 mono lapel mic into 1/8<>1/4 adapter which is in 1/4 mic jack on back of ZxR, pig noise returns
  
 I can't shake the it. Two different mics, it seems the only thing that can give me a clear recording is the ACM.
  
 The only difference is these mics are mono. The ACM is stereo. Perhaps the ZxR has some non-optional circuitry to remove noise from a stereo mic? The 'noise reduction' is OFF in the driver. All of CrystalVoice is off. 
  
 Is the mono mic jack perhaps leaving a channel open on the ZxR input thus resulting in the amp circuit picking up all this EMI noise? Edit: No, I plugged plain stereo headphones into the 1/8" mic input on the ACM and got them recording as a very bad stereo mic, and the pig noise returned upon alt-tab into CSGO.


----------



## SaLX

Practically the same specs as me bar Windows 8 (I have just the vanilla Z). Straight off the bat I would point the finger at software (assuming everything is firmly plugged in). You sure everything is all sorted in that dept. ie all boxes ticked in exclusive mode, microphone boost at default, listen to this device unchecked (Windows sound CP)? Maybe play around with different sample rates for both playback and record.
  
 What PCIe slot are you using btw?? Are you using the top slot nearest the motherboard? There isn't any other sound capture software enabled even. Maybe it's directx? This _is_ a head scratcher. Push comes to shove you can use a USB mic.
  
 I have occasionally heard of games giving weird feedback noise - but you say running 3Dmark gives the same if a lesser effect. (again perhaps software - DirectX??)  If it was me I'd barebones the PC, reinstall Windows then install the soundcard. You do have a good PSU btw?
  
 Seems like there's a lot of sound problems with CS:GO http://steamcommunity.com/app/730/discussions/search/?q=sound+problem


----------



## Anarion

My bro started having weird noise issues with the mic too. Either it suddenly got damaged or there's some kind of interference. Actually... His PSU crapped out recently and at the same time did his GPU (coincidence... or not). I'm starting to wonder....

By the way, regarding the headphone mode for line out: http://forums.creative.com/showthread.php?t=700607


----------



## NCSUZoSo

Here is my ZXR with upgraded Opamps which are as follows:
  
 (Black): MUSES01
 (Greens): 2x AD8597
 (Blue): 2x ADA4627-1BRZs converted to a dual op amp-DIP8
  
 Overall I'm extremely happy with this setup, I tried OPA627s for the fronts, but the 8597s are more neutral and transparent.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

So I actually opened up the Z mic to use with games. My previous experience was limited to a few minutes and it wasn't enough.

 Started playing dead island with a friend and let me tell you, its a really good mic.

With noise reduction and wedge angle at a minimum, it doesn't pick up any noise except my voice. And my basement is stupid loud with the HVAC units next to me. 

My friends report that its really good sounding. 

I did notice I have to make sure it's pointing in relatively decent angle to my mouth though(vertically angled) or it won't pick up my voice well enough. I assume its to do with the wedge angle perhaps. Or maybe that only affects the sound pickup horizontally... Have to do more testing.

Seems this mic is solid, not sure why a lot of people are complainging about especially on the creative forums. No issues for me so far. Maybe people are setting it too high on their monitors and not setting g wedge angles large enough?

One thing I've come to notice is that a mic and closed headphones don't mix well. Talking is awkward and loud lol. I use the "listen to this device" option in windows settings but its not perfect. It lags so I find myself speaking slower. I sound like I have a speech problem lol. Also that option is always on so I have to turn it on and off every time I game (just annoying really).

My question is, is there a better option for gaming with closed headphones and a mic?


----------



## Anarion

I need to retest stuff but in my case it seems to pick my keyboard typing noise quite badly. Noise cancellation seems to muffle the sound quite a bit.


----------



## roob

I'm looking to exchange my current USB DAC iBasso D3 for something that's a little more suited for gaming and I'm currently thinking about buying one of the Creative cards. For headphones I use the AKG K701 with the Matrix M-Stage for amplification. Therefore, *I think *(given the nature of the K701), I'm not at all interested in the built-in amp of the Creative cards. The RCA output on the ZxR and the microphone go on the plus-side though.
  
 Are any of these cards worth purchasing or am I better off looking elsewhere?


----------



## motorwayne

ncsuzoso said:


> Here is my ZXR with upgraded Opamps which are as follows:
> 
> (Black): MUSES01
> (Greens): 2x AD8597
> ...


 
 Why did you change them and what do you use the card for mainly? I'm a gamer.
  
 Cheers
  
 Motorwayne


----------



## DJINFERNO806

roob said:


> I'm looking to exchange my current USB DAC iBasso D3 for something that's a little more suited for gaming and I'm currently thinking about buying one of the Creative cards. For headphones I use the AKG K701 with the Matrix M-Stage for amplification. Therefore, *I think* (given the nature of the K701), I'm not at all interested in the built-in amp of the Creative cards. The RCA output on the ZxR and the microphone go on the plus-side though.
> 
> Are any of these cards worth purchasing or am I better off looking elsewhere?




The rca and line outs on these cards don't have headphone surround. Only speaker surround so you can't use them with a headphone amp and expect that.

Unless you are willing to double amp the z with your matrix. 

You could also buy an external DAC with optical in with the z and your m stage.


----------



## EarwaxDAC

salx said:


> Practically the same specs as me bar Windows 8 (I have just the vanilla Z).
> 
> What PCIe slot are you using btw?? If it was me I'd barebones the PC, reinstall Windows then install the soundcard. You do have a good PSU btw?




The PSU is a Seasonic X650 Gold. It draws around 250 watts (as measured with a Kill-a-Watt P4400) with both the CPU and GPU at 100% utilization. At this load it operates in silent mode (no psu fan spinning). The rest of the system runs very low rpm fans because of low ambient temps. Overall the rig is silent.

However, I could barebones it as you suggest. The fans and GPU could be introducing noise, and that would be the only way to reasonably question the motherboard. I am using the second 16x PCIe 2.0 slot. It is really only 8x. Asus reports this does not share bandwidth with the primary 16x PCIe 3 slot. The x1 slot is wedged between my GPU and my NH-D14 HSF. If I remove the GPU I could probably test with the x1, but the fit is awkward.


----------



## benbenkr

I read that Evshrug has gotten the SB Omni, how is it doing thus far?
  
 Been thinking about it for a while now and considering I might switch to a full ITX/M-ATX PC build soon... the Omni doesn't seem like such a bad option.


----------



## NCSUZoSo

motorwayne said:


> Why did you change them and what do you use the card for mainly? I'm a gamer.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Motorwayne


 

 I changed them to find a better sound signature than stock and I definitely found it.
  
 I have better sound separation and clarity/transparency with the setup I am running now along with the bass being tamed more now (tighter instead of louder).  The 2 main (LME 49710NA) left/right aren't bad, but the JRC 2114Ds are definitely not the greatest.  Also if you did like I did you can use two mono chips converted to Dual DIP8 for better separation.  I threw the MUSES01 in there just to see if it was really as great as everyone has said and it definitely didn't disappoint, so I decided to leave it.
  
 I use my card for a variety of things from movies to audio creation and music, gaming, movie editing, etc.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Did some more testing with the sbz and the mic.

Clicking the "listen to this device", option under the mixer tab in the sbz panel has only a portion of the delay from when you speak to when you hear it in your headphones. Half the delay in comparison to clicking on that option I'm the windows sound panel. 

I'd say windows option is about a 300ms + delay and the sbz option is roughly 100ms delay. Definitely much better and less annoying. Easier to speak at a fluent speed. So it seems to me that the sbz option uses the soundcore3D to process the mic effects. As advertised. This is good news. While the windows option just does it in software using the windows audio stack. Efficient for cpu cycles but slow.

The other interesting thing is, when I disable crystal voice, there is no delay at all. My voice is heard instantaneously in my headphones. Seems that any processing adds some delay even if it is small. Much better than windows for sure.


----------



## MaxKohler

Can someone who has experience with the Zx or ZXR say whether the beam mic on the ACM can be set to not pickup my fairly loud mechanical keyboard noise? The mic placement of the Z (on top the monitor) actually seems preferable to trying to find a place for the ACM on my desk somewhere that won't get in my way and can still be aimed to pick up my voice only.
  
 How picky is the ACM as far as placement and beam adjustment?


----------



## Radical_53

There isn't much you could do I'd say. It's a fairly loud noise, it's not constant and it's not somewhere in the background. That's why I love my Logitech desktop mic, it has a button  
  
 I never liked the quality of the ACMs mic anyhow. In comparison the quality was much worse and, due to its positioning, it picked up far more noise.


----------



## MaxKohler

radical_53 said:


> There isn't much you could do I'd say. It's a fairly loud noise, it's not constant and it's not somewhere in the background. That's why I love my Logitech desktop mic, it has a button
> 
> I never liked the quality of the ACMs mic anyhow. In comparison the quality was much worse and, due to its positioning, it picked up far more noise.


 

 But according to this it sounds like you should be able to set up the beam forming mic to only pick up your voice.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Ya regardless of what mic you use its not going to matter if the mic is always on. But I will say it depends on which game or program you are using. Meaning if they have the chat feature activated automatically with your voice, depends on how sensitive they make it to activate. BF4 i dont get any key sounds when I speak. And Dead Island Riptide, when I press the voice key, and I move around, I still cant hear my WASD being pressed or mouse clicking. With noise cancelation on and the mic pointed at my face upwards and wedge angle at a minimum, my cherry reds are not that obvious. I actually have my mic on my keyboard.

And to be fair, the z mic and therefore the zx and zxr(they are the same mics just in a housing) are decent mics. It just seems people tend to place them in the worst spots or not play with the settings enough. Or they expect yeti performance from a $10 mic.

The ACM is at a disadvantage since it can't be angled at all. So it probably suffers the most and explains why people say its worse.

Trust me I was going to buy a separate clip on until I started using this one. 

I'm still thinking of picking up the thermaltake Chao clip on to make comparisons.


This is how my mic is placed. Funny enough being on the keyboard helped with not picking up the keys. The wedge angle is so narrow and its to the right of the main keys, it actually misses a huge amount of the sound.



*@maxkohler*, there are limits to how much noise gets omitted. Also I think Creative overhyped that a bit.


----------



## Radical_53

As you said, the ACM can't be pointed anywhere. It just sits there. In my example the ACM was on my left hand side (as my mouse is on the right), right above the keyboard. I'm always using voice activation as additional key presses, during gaming, just don't work for me. This worked fine for gaming, even with the ACM, but it can't work for typing while chatting. It's just too much noise.
  
 The overall quality of the mic is something else. I can't say too much about this, as I only heard what people told me, but they noticed immediately when I wasn't using my Logitech and said the quality was much worse. It might be better than some other "cheap" mics but it wasn't great either, not in my case.


----------



## SoFGR

omni has no  host open / ALchemy mind you 
  
  
 dat  mic position is freaking  genius  btw !!  
  
 djinferno do you mind posting a screenshot of your crystal voice settings ?


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Here you are.
  
  

  
  
 The position is so perfect.  its directly looking at my head and in line with it.  So I can set the wedge angle really narrow and only capture my voice and light typing.  But for gaming, I don't hear my mouse or keys at all.


----------



## SaLX

earwaxdac said:


> The x1 slot is wedged between my GPU and my NH-D14 HSF. If I remove the GPU I could probably test with the x1, but the fit is awkward.


 
 Surprised you can't fit it into the x1 slot without removing the GPU, mind you that Noctua is a big person.
  
http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2703676)?  Saw some guy turned off multicore rendering in the game options and I is not having the sound problem anymore (FPS hit). What's it like over TS or Skype whilst running 3Dmark but _before _you run CS? Seems like that game farts around with windows settings.
  
 Got to ask though, (you'd be surprised) - your onboard audio _is_ disabled in the BIOS?


----------



## EarwaxDAC

If this fellow with the Omni could report back I'd love to hear about it.
  
 Quote:


salx said:


> Surprised you can't fit it into the x1 slot without removing the GPU, mind you that Noctua is a big person.
> 
> http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2703676)?  Saw some guy turned off multicore rendering in the game options and I is not having the sound problem anymore (FPS hit). What's it like over TS or Skype whilst running 3Dmark but _before _you run CS? Seems like that game farts around with windows settings.
> 
> Got to ask though, (you'd be surprised) - your onboard audio _is_ disabled in the BIOS?


 
 I think in terms of absolute clearance the x1 will work, it's just awkward and will require me to remove the GPU. The open and obvious first choice was the second x16... it always seems I get myself into trouble when I take the path of least resistance though.  
  
 That forums link is about volume control within csgo, not sure what happened there.
  
 I don't think disabling onboard audio should make any bit of difference. Were this a PCIe NIC refusing to link I would not expect to have to disable the onboard NIC as part of the troubleshooting process.
  
 That said, since I am trying to identify the source of EMI noise it would make sense to disable any unused things in the BIOS as part of the bare-bones'ing process. To that list I will add the SuperIO chip and things like that. 
  
 Due to social obligations my next available opportunity to work on this wont be until Saturday. I'll test with a different game, perhaps test with CPUburn and GPU stress test as well, barebones the system down, and report back.


----------



## SaLX

Disable onboard audio always if you've got a soundcard. A USB headset or soundcard is OK, but not a soundcard. Catch you next week!


----------



## MaxKohler

Dang it!! This is such a hard decision.....
  
 I want the better quality (SNR, DAC, amp, headphone jack) of the ZXR, but I won't use the ACM or daughter card, and I really want the Z's mic!!!
  
 I really want to use voice detection for ventrilo/mumble and I'm pretty sure that the Z's beam forming mic would allow me to do so (I'm only barely unable to do so currently). Currently I'm using my webcam's mice, which is good quality but it picks up everything at equal volume .__.


----------



## GrowAPear

If you want to run a test with my Z's mic on mumble, let me know. I actually haven't used it yet.


----------



## MaxKohler

growapear said:


> If you want to run a test with my Z's mic on mumble, let me know. I actually haven't used it yet.


 
 You mean go in a mumble with you to test it? Sure, I'm down. Do you have a server handy? I'm trying to find an empty public server.
  
 EDIT: We tested it and confirmed that the Z's mic won't pick up loud keyboard (blue mechanical switches) noise when using automatic voice detection (no push to talk key) in mumble!
  
 If someone would be willing to test the ACM's ability to do the same thing that would be swell!


----------



## GrowAPear

maxkohler said:


> You mean go in a mumble with you to test it? Sure, I'm down. Do you have a server handy? I'm trying to find an empty public server.


 
 Sent you a PM


----------



## SaLX

I have this (not used it with my SBZ) http://www.amazon.com/Andrea-Array-2S-Superbeam-Microphone/dp/B00DOGRUYG/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1390003283&sr=8-2&keywords=superbeam. When I used it last year I was told it was very clear though.


----------



## MaxKohler

salx said:


> I have this (not used it with my SBZ) http://www.amazon.com/Andrea-Array-2S-Superbeam-Microphone/dp/B00DOGRUYG/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1390003283&sr=8-2&keywords=superbeam. When I used it last year I was told it was very clear though.


 

 Why haven't you used it with your SBZ? Do you just use the ACM? Have you tested the ACM to see if you can put it on various parts of your desk and still customize it to only pick your voice and not keyboard noise without a push to talk key?


----------



## DJINFERNO806

http://www.coldzero.eu/sound-cards-misc/1564-coldzero-backplate-sound-blaster-z-1.html

Backplates for the z. Good for those of us with case windows. Lol. Now if only the z didn't have that ugly red shield.


----------



## SaLX

> Originally Posted by *MaxKohler* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Why haven't you used it with your SBZ? Do you just use the ACM?


 
 The vanilla Z doesn't come with the ACM Max.
  
 @DJ - great idea those backplates.... they've even got them for graphics cards. Is there any real reason why the 'front' of PCI/e components all face down?? Too late now to change.


----------



## EarwaxDAC

maxkohler said:


> If someone would be willing to test the ACM's ability to do the same thing that would be swell!


 
  
 I have access to a mumburu server and will give ZxR+ACM + Mumble+Vox a test tonight. What is your preference on crystalvoice configuration options?


----------



## chicolom

Wow. 
  
 Downloading SB Z drivers from Creative's website is _incredibly_ slow.  A 162mb package and it's going at 25-50 kb/sec - basically dial-up speeds.   ETA is over an hour.  Is this normal?
  
 Talk about slow servers.  Creative, I am disappoint.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Ya creative servers are garbage for some reason. Always have been.


----------



## NCSUZoSo

I'm getting 225 KB/s right now


----------



## MaxKohler

earwaxdac said:


> I have access to a mumburu server and will give ZxR+ACM + Mumble+Vox a test tonight. What is your preference on crystalvoice configuration options?


 
 Hmm, I don't have a preference per se since I don't own a Z series card yet. But which ever settings that would allow the mic to only pick up your voice from various areas on your desk would be ideal! These ones seem pretty good: http://cdn.head-fi.org/a/a9/a989fb18_crystalsettings.jpeg
  


salx said:


> The vanilla Z doesn't come with the ACM Max.


 
 Oh, oops, misread your card. So you choose the Z's beam mic over the Andrea 2S Superbeam Array Mic?


----------



## SaLX

No Max.. only using the one that came with the Z... in tests with myself it's very good. The Superbeam I haven't tried yet... I would assume it's at least as good, and is nice to have even as a backup in case the Z's mic goes **** up. Does anybody know if there's one or two mics inside the SBZ one?
  
 I like DJ's solution on the keyboard, but ontop of the monitor seems to work well too.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Ya all the z and zxr mics are exactly the same according to the creative reps. It's also been opened up and confirmed.

They are all stereo mics. Just the zx and zxr are built into the ACM.


----------



## SaLX

K DJ.. never realised it was the same model of microphone in the ACM's and the Z's. Just to point out: the Superbeam is almost twice the width/size of the Z's mic (and is no looker tbh). I'll conduct a few tests and get back to you all - it may just work well with the SBZ CP. (I'm in no way saying the stock one needs replaced.. solely doing this out of interest). Most advice on this forum is to get headphones over a headset and get a Zalman clip on mic (crap TBH). I would like to think that the Creative tech used in their recording software would and could offer a decent alternative when using a beam forming microphone.
  
 Mind you, Creative's microphone settings are meant to pair well with boom mics off of headsets as well. I've never heard of any reports from these users and how well they work together. Then again, a uni-directional mic on a boom has an easier time of it and doesn't need the extras from Creative to do it's job really.
  
 Any headset users out there care to share please?


----------



## EarwaxDAC

maxkohler said:


> Hmm, I don't have a preference per se since I don't own a Z series card yet. But which ever settings that would allow the mic to only pick up your voice from various areas on your desk would be ideal! These ones seem pretty good: http://cdn.head-fi.org/a/a9/a989fb18_crystalsettings.jpeg
> 
> Oh, oops, misread your card. So you choose the Z's beam mic over the Andrea 2S Superbeam Array Mic?


 
  
 Let me just say, that in our guild, push-to-talk is required. It is the worst thing ever to hear some guildmate's kids/wife/dog in the background, or worse yet bodily functions and mouth breathing. So please for the sake of everyone else who plays with you, assign a key to push to talk (I use the 4 key on my naga hex). (I don't mean to pull a 180 on you, I tested it, but I remembered this fact of life just now)
  
 That said, the ACM mic is very clear and provides excellent sound in mumble. It is _extremely _sensitive, even with noise reduction, and I have a hard time balancing mumble's SNR/raw amplitude thresholds properly. For example, while I don't talk, it doesn't key the mic. However if I make any noise whatsoever (drag my mouse across the desk, type on my keyboard) mumble keys the mic. If you are going to have an open mic it might be best to get it up on your monitor and up off of the desk. If you intend to use PTT I think the ACM is great.


----------



## EarwaxDAC

earwaxdac said:


> However, I could barebones it as you suggest. The fans and GPU could be introducing noise, and that would be the only way to reasonably question the motherboard.


 
  
 Confirm it is the GPU.
 Turning up chassis+CPU fans to max did not introduce noise.
 Turning up GPU fan to max did not introduce noise.
 Running Prime95 to run the CPU at 100% did not introduce noise.
 Running Video Card Stability Test (link) brings the noise.
 Turning on Noise Reduction does remove it, however this reduces the quality of my recorded voice as the noise is in the same range as my voice.
  
 Now the question is can I mitigate it by changing slots? I'll shut down and find out now.
  
 Edit: No, the noise still persists even with the x1 slot.
  
 I'm out of options for this sound card. It's an incredible product but for me it doesn't look like an internal card is going to be an option for this build. Perhaps I will have to suffer using an Omni (SB1560) or Xonar U7.


----------



## EarwaxDAC

salx said:


> Surprised you can't fit it into the x1 slot without removing the GPU, mind you that Noctua is a big person.


 
 It fits. The retention clip of the NF-P14 fan on the NH-D14 does rest up against the back of the PCB, and considering how hot it gets between these two components I don't think this is an ideal location.
  
 Here are the pics to prove that the x1 slot on a Asus P8Z77-V LX motherboard can be used with a NH-D14 HSF:

  
 VVV- I would agree 100% if this were a software issue.


----------



## SaLX

Standard mantra would be: uninstall all video (and sound) card drivers > run driver sweeper freeware . Also CCleaner too > reseat the GPU and soundcard (and disable motherboard audio, also check bios etc updates) > install both the GPU and Sound Blaster Drivers, plus DirectX. Win.... hopefully.
  
 Where is HAL 9000 when you want the person.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

earwaxdac said:


> Let me just say, that in our guild, push-to-talk is required. It is the worst thing ever to hear some guildmate's kids/wife/dog in the background, or worse yet bodily functions and mouth breathing. So please for the sake of everyone else who plays with you, assign a key to push to talk (I use the 4 key on my naga hex). (I don't mean to pull a 180 on you, I tested it, but I remembered this fact of life just now)
> 
> That said, the ACM mic is very clear and provides excellent sound in mumble. It is _extremely _sensitive, even with noise reduction, and I have a hard time balancing mumble's SNR/raw amplitude thresholds properly. For example, while I don't talk, it doesn't key the mic. However if I make any noise whatsoever (drag my mouse across the desk, type on my keyboard) mumble keys the mic. If you are going to have an open mic it might be best to get it up on your monitor and up off of the desk. If you intend to use PTT I think the ACM is great.




With the settings I posted for crystal voice, games that don't support push to talk are fine and don't activate just from mouse or keyboard.


----------



## MaxKohler

djinferno806 said:


> With the settings I posted for crystal voice, games that don't support push to talk are fine and don't activate just from mouse or keyboard.


 
 But don't you have the Z's mic, not the ACM?


----------



## SaLX

Couple of posts up, and it's confirmed that they are the same stereo microphone, but in a different housing.


----------



## EarwaxDAC

It didn't seem to make much of a difference when I used those sliders, it might just be that mumble's vox just sucks (which would explain why my guild prohibits it).


----------



## MaxKohler

salx said:


> Couple of posts up, and it's confirmed that they are the same stereo microphone, but in a different housing.


 

 Yes, but the Z's mic is much more versatile when it comes to placement & angling.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

maxkohler said:


> Yes, but the Z's mic is much more versatile when it comes to placement & angling.




Ya and I think that's where most of the talk about the ACM mic sounding different comes from. People just can't position it as well to suit their situations.


----------



## atoff

Just received my SBZ today... so very disappointed.  I bought it to get surround through headphones for movies, running XBMC.  It just sounds... mediocre at best.  Using AKG K712's.  It's plenty loud, in fact too loud... I have the volume completely down and it's still too loud, all the while sounding narrow and odd.  I'm having a hard time explaining the sound.  Kind of like having a bucket over my head.  Muffled and bland.  I had a much better impression of surround using Foobar > Mixer > Dolby, unfortunately this won't work under XBMC.  
  
 And yes, I have it set up correctly.


----------



## SaLX

You in headphone mode in the CCP?


----------



## atoff

salx said:


> You in headphone mode in the CCP?


 
  
 Yes, headphone mode is on, as is surround, I've tried just about every setting and up and down on the amount of surround.  Here's the odd bit.  It's incredibly incredibly loud.  I mean, I have it turned almost all the way down if plugged into the stereo jack of the SBZ... now, when I plug my Schiit Vali into the stereo jack, effectively double amping, the volume reduces significantly.  In fact, I can then turn the volume up quite high before it's at an acceptable level.  However, both methods just sound bad.   Muffled / bad, with very weak surround affect.   I've tried playing all sorts of media, from 5.1 to stereo.  Tried through XBMC, Media Player, Media Player Classic, Foobar, J-River.
  
 Very narrow sounding as well.  It feels very claustrophobic.


----------



## SaLX

As for volume try this fix: http://www.overclock.net/t/1337761/official-creative-sound-blaster-z-zx-zxr-series-club/1480. What are other people's thought on movie playback? Personally I favour DH for movies, but in no way do I think that SBX pro is bad.
  
 I think you may have something wrong in the chain. I watched Avatar Blu-Ray the other day and it was superb. (please note: neither myself, nor the other regular posters in this thread are fanboys by any means).


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Ya I've watched 5.1 movies in xbmc before with sbx on and they sound fantastic. 

DH was a very close second. It was very well imaged too.

You sure that xbmc is set to direct sound right? Not wasapi exclusive? Because that would bypass the z and its driver.

Have you played any games to test?

Also is windows sound settings, is the z set for 5.1?


----------



## Meduseld

Hi 
  
 I have a question.
  
 For gaming and mostly music, I'd like to know which is better between Soundblaster ZXR; Asus Essence One and Cambridge dacmagic.
  
 Thanks


----------



## chicolom

meduseld said:


> Hi
> 
> I have a question.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Doesn't the DACmagic have an optical input? 
  
 If your willing to spend that much, I would just get a good external amp/DAC combo WITH an optical DAC, and then pick up a cheaper soundblaster Z.  Then you could run the optical out from the soundblaster into the external device (such as the DACmagic) for your gaming with surround sound, and just use the external device by itself for everything else (music).


----------



## Evshrug

benbenkr said:


> I read that Evshrug has gotten the SB Omni, how is it doing thus far?
> 
> Been thinking about it for a while now and considering I might switch to a full ITX/M-ATX PC build soon... the Omni doesn't seem like such a bad option.



Don't be mad, but... I haven't gotten around to setting it up yet. Feel kinda bad that (I think) I missed the return window for the SBZ.

One thing though, I do believe the Omni actually does have ALchemy... I remember reading it on the box, I'll confirm tonight.



chicolom said:


> Wow.
> 
> Downloading SB Z drivers from Creative's website is _incredibly_ slow.  A 162mb package and it's going at 25-50 kb/sec - basically dial-up speeds.   ETA is over an hour.  Is this normal?
> 
> Talk about slow servers.  Creative, I am disappoint.




Well, they are based in Singapore.
Steam downloads really slow for me, for some reason.


----------



## Meduseld

chicolom said:


> Doesn't the DACmagic have an optical input?
> 
> If your willing to spend that much, I would just get a good external amp/DAC combo WITH an optical DAC, and then pick up a cheaper soundblaster Z.  Then you could run the optical out from the soundblaster into the external device (such as the DACmagic) for your gaming with surround sound, and just use the external device by itself for everything else (music).


 
 thank you 
 So you suggest me to connect my dac on the sound card to get the creatives software? 
 At first I wanted to plug in usb but if what you propose is better ok.


----------



## chicolom

meduseld said:


> thank you
> So you suggest me to connect my dac on the sound card to get the creatives software?
> At first I wanted to plug in usb but if what you propose is better ok.


 
  
  
 Basically.
  
 If you already have external amp and optical DAC hardware, you don't need to pay twice for more DAC/amp hardware in the soundcard when you won't be using it.  If you have an external optical DAC, you only need the soundcard for it's surround processing.  The soundcard is able to output the surround-sound-processed stereo signal digitally over it's optical ouput.  So you send that to your external optical DAC/amp and it does the converting to analog and driving of the headphones.  So with this setup you can get by with the cheaper soundcards such as the regular Sound Blaster Z as it does the surround processing exactly the same as the ZxR, but without the added cost from the improved internal DAC and amp (which, like I said, you don't need if you have external ones).
  
 USB DACs won't work with surround sound though, as they need to be the first audio device in the chain.  So if you use a USB DAC, you will completely bypass the internal soundcard and thus lose any surround sound processing.  This is fine for music, but obviously it's not great for gaming since you will only be able to play in basic stereo.


----------



## EarwaxDAC

evshrug said:


> Don't be mad, but... I haven't gotten around to setting it up yet. Feel kinda bad that (I think) I missed the return window for the SBZ.
> 
> One thing though, I do believe the Omni actually does have ALchemy... I remember reading it on the box, I'll confirm tonight.
> Well, they are based in Singapore.
> Steam downloads really slow for me, for some reason.


 
  
 ccftp.creative.com resolves as 209.147.125.252, which according to Geo-IP is in Washington state. 14 hops from my ISP (Comcast) through level3 to them. I was able to download a 50mb file in under 3 minutes just now.
  
 I'd be interested to hear your opinion of the omni. I'd be even more interested to see some pictures of the inside, if you were the type to tear things open. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 There doesn't seem to be any such photos on google image search.


----------



## atoff

salx said:


> As for volume try this fix: http://www.overclock.net/t/1337761/official-creative-sound-blaster-z-zx-zxr-series-club/1480. What are other people's thought on movie playback? Personally I favour DH for movies, but in no way do I think that SBX pro is bad.
> 
> I think you may have something wrong in the chain. I watched Avatar Blu-Ray the other day and it was superb. (please note: neither myself, nor the other regular posters in this thread are fanboys by any means).


 
  
 Thanks, that did seem to fix the volume (gain) issue.  Though it still sounds awful... very congested. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I did many back and forth comparisons with SBX and Channel Mixer + Dolby Headphone (Foobar), and much preferred the CM+DH, it sounds much more natural, with a great sense of the surround.  Nice and spacious too.  Unfortunately, there's no way for me to get that CM+DH to work with XBMC, which is why I picked up the SBZ in the first place.
  


djinferno806 said:


> Ya I've watched 5.1 movies in xbmc before with sbx on and they sound fantastic.
> 
> DH was a very close second. It was very well imaged too.
> 
> ...


 
  
 A matter of taste perhaps, but it sounds very narrow / claustrophobic / congested to me, not to mention the unnecessary presence of reverb.
  
 But yes, everything is set up correctly.  I used to be a musician, I've done much work in Cubase / Nuendo / Pro Tools / etc, so have no trouble setting up audio.  
 Wasapi works fine, it doesn't bypass the SBZ.  Onboard is disabled, so the choice for Wasapi SBZ is there.  But I did try both Directsound and Wasapi to compare. 
  
 I don't intend to play any games, so nope, haven't tested a game.  My sole intention is to watch movies in surround.  
  
 And yes, it's set for 5.1 in Windows, in fact, this was done automatically when I installed the SBZ.


----------



## Anarion

djinferno806 said:


> Ya I've watched 5.1 movies in xbmc before with sbx on and they sound fantastic.
> 
> DH was a very close second. It was very well imaged too.
> 
> ...


Actually... WASAPI exclusive does not bypass Creative VP settings. It only seems to force exclusive mode so that it can playback bit perfect mode and select the correct bit depth and sample rate. Also volume control works fine (inc. all SBX settings and Creative CP equaliser). It does not actually bypas the driver (or card). One has to still watch out that CP settings don't mess with sound.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

anarion said:


> Actually... WASAPI exclusive does not bypass Creative VP settings. It only seems to force exclusive mode so that it can playback bit perfect mode and select the correct bit depth and sample rate. Also volume control works fine (inc. all SBX settings and Creative CP equaliser). It does not actually bypas the driver (or card). One has to still watch out that CP settings don't mess with sound.


 
 Ya I worded that wrong.  I was tired and ended up confusing myself with ASIO.  I should of said it bypasses the windows mixer and straight to the endpoint device driver.  So ya Creative panel does work for the DSP settings. My bad.
  
 Anyway due to the mixer being bypassed, it does not allow system volume control however.  Only if the application has its own volume.  You can try it out yourself.  No program that uses wasapi exclusive can just by its design alone.  System volume is applied during the Global Mixer portion, which is not part of the chain in Wasapi Exclusive, only in shared or regular mode.


----------



## Anarion

djinferno806 said:


> Ya I worded that wrong.  I was tired and ended up confusing myself with ASIO.  I should of said it bypasses the windows mixer and straight to the endpoint device driver.  So ya Creative panel does work for the DSP settings. My bad.
> 
> Anyway due to the mixer being bypassed, it does not allow system volume control however.  Only if the application has its own volume.  You can try it out yourself.  No program that uses wasapi exclusive can just by its design alone.  System volume is applied during the Global Mixer portion, which is not part of the chain in Wasapi Exclusive, only in shared or regular mode.


Well, ASIO works exactly the same as WASAPI exclusive with Creative cards. xD It bypasses Windows mixer but card/driver does what it wants with the audio (WASAPI exclusive takes exclusive control and mutes other sources that would use windows mixer though). Well, in my case every application that has WASAPI exclusive obeys Windows volume control percentage (even though windows mixer shows that no audio is being played and no, I'm not using the software volume control in the player, Foobar in this case).

After all, the sound comes from the card. It can do whatever it wants in hardware to it. FYI, I can use ASIO bypasses Windows mixer completely but it does not take exclusive control of card. For example I can use Cubase or Foobar with ASIO out but I could still play sound with WMP. You could force quit audiodg.exe but the ASIO would keep on playing (and Creative equalizer, SBX and volume control would work). The driver just reads the windows volume setting and uses it in ASIO (and WASAPI exclusive mode) too. Kinda makes sense (less angry people posting how their ears got busted). AFAIK Xonars work differently though.

Creative ASIO driver is multi-client. I can for example play stuff though Foobar and FL studio at the same time using ASIO (and Windows mixer would not notice any activity). My X-Fi Forte worked exactly like this too. Handy while gaming because the music volume stays constant (unlike if you use DS and game has loud explosions for example). Stereo direct is only option that doesn't obey volume control (but you can't playback normal CD quality stuff though it without upsampling).

Earlier W8.1 upgrade broke ASIO multi client support on my system but now since fresh install it works again. EDIT: It looks like it's just dodgy in W8.1, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Same goes to earlier paragraph.


----------



## SaLX

Anarion .. saw your post over on the Creative forums http://forums.creative.com/showthread.php?t=700607 asking about the line outs > amp > HP's but adding a 'headphone' mode when configured that way. I dearly hope they hope they notice.


----------



## Anarion

Yeah. I hope so too. It should be really simple thing to do.


----------



## chicolom

Whhyyyyy!?!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
_EDIT: Reinstalled SB Z drivers and it's gone.  For now...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_


----------



## SaLX

When the driver installs, does the entry Signal enhancements 'enable audio enhancements' default to off? I leave it off myself, although I'm not sure exactly what it does. The only thing I could find was it had something to do with the CPU and balancing, but nothing on signal processing ie Windows messing with the actual sound.
  
 My DAC, on the installation of it's driver, had it set to 'on' and I just left it there. Anybody know what it means?


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Ya I can't figure out what that does.

In generic or box audio drivers, the windows mixer audio enhancements have their own tab and you can disable it there. These use extra CPU resources by way of the audiodg process in yiurbtaak list. Albeit probably nothing noticeable with a modern cpu. But the z has its own audio enhancements independent of windows and that are run on the soundcore3d in hardware. And none of these seem to be affected when unchecking the option.

Strange really. I just leave it on since that's the default when the driver installs.

I'm going to do some testing.

*
EDIT:*

So I tested music playing in Foobar2000 in regular WASAPI shared(aka Directsound) and WASAPI exclusive modes with this feature on and off. I had a hypothesis this might influence certain DSP effects in exclusive mode. I did not stop the music during any of the changes to see if the playback would stop for even a fraction of a second as that would indicate the stream was stopped to accommodate a new option and resample etc etc. When hitting the "apply" button with the feature on and off, there was no pause or even windows windows saying that the stream might be stopped. There was no sound difference whatsoever. This was with ALL SBX options enabled in order to get the 
"weirdest" sound vs stock as to be able to notice it easier.

So I am still at a loss for what this would do as it seems the educated answer is *Nothing...*


----------



## chicolom

salx said:


> When the driver installs, does the entry Signal enhancements 'enable audio enhancements' default to off? I leave it off myself, although I'm not sure exactly what it does. The only thing I could find was it had something to do with the CPU and balancing, but nothing on signal processing ie Windows messing with the actual sound.
> 
> My DAC, on the installation of it's driver, had it set to 'on' and I just left it there. Anybody know what it means?


 
  
 It is checked ON by default for me.  Normally I uncheck it with DACs, as I don't want weird processing going on behind my back.  I left it on for the SB Z though, as that's one device that _does_ have extra processing going on.


----------



## SaLX

rpgwizard said:


> (This thread)
> SBX seems to work way better as long as "stereo" speakers are set in windows control panel. Obviously needs "enable audio enhancements" in the Advanced tab to work but worth pointing out. Stereo speaker config + headphones and it works very well for me.


 
  
 I've just gone and closed the external link to where I saw that it was for disabling 3D sound ??? RPG's post above seems to support this even idea though it's not the normal way to do things.
  


> Originally Posted by *xand1x*
> 
> I just built a new system and I have a bit perfect ENVY24MT sound card (Onkyo SE-90) and on board audio output via optical only. I am getting HDCD (red light on my dac goes on) to be passed through via Direct Sound. The key to getting things "bit perfect" for me via direct sound was to go to the advanced tab in windows sound and change 2 things. 1) Set it to output 2 channel, 24 bit, 44100Hz 2) Uncheck the box that says "Enable audio enhancements". The results above imply that you can get bit perfect output via direct sound but it would be nice to find another method to verify if I am on the right track. Any suggestions?


 
  


> Originally Posted by *somestranger26*
> 
> If "Audio Enhancements" are enabled, you're guaranteed not to be getting bitperfect audio. Frequency settings matter a significant amount, you should always match the output frequency with the source material's frequency when possible (usually 44.1kHz, what CDs use). Bit settings matter not, if you play 16-bit content and have it set for 24-bit it doesn't modify the sound, it just adds 0s.


 
  
 Maybe opening a support ticket to Creative might help as I'd really like to know. I can't find much of anything on Head-Fi (surprising at it is setting USB DAC users will have to be aware of). Will have a trawl later.
  
 *Edit* Have contacted Creative about this and asked for an immediate escalation sent to their top-drawer tech guy (or girl). No matter the gender, he'll be called 'Dave' .. again.


----------



## SoFGR

what if "audio enchancements" are enabled but you still use  foobar2000 with the WASAPI plugin ?  i can toggle sbx efects during playback just fine btw


----------



## ilGaspa

anarion said:


> Mostly, because, well, headphone out is unusable loud with these headphones. Headphone mode also has this "in your head" kind of HRTF. While it might be more accurate, it _*sounds*_ worse in my opinion. SBX wouldn't be enabled in that game anyway since it's OpenAL game and I did not use generic software mode. Headphone out and line out have different HRTF in OpenAL games and if you have SBX enabled. Same situation with X-Fi. It is kinda annoying that you can't enable headphone mode when using line out since the headphone out can be unusable with headphones. Even with line out, ACM is a must.


 


evshrug said:


> I see...  (...)


 
  
 Evshroug, if I may, have you had time to play a little with the Omni?  
  
 I was looking at it for my laptop but I'm concerned it might show the same "problem" Anarion mentioned.. *Incredibly high gain *on the headphone out.
 This shouldn't be a problem with high impedance headphones but should I use "smaller" earbuds when travelling and forget to turn down the volume when connecting them.. well, this summed to the fact that the Omni only remebers one sound level setting (My Creative ZxR makes no distinction between headphones connected or not, the Omni does the same from what I read on the net), equals to a pair of earbuds popped like pop-corn -.-'
  
 By chance would you kindly check if at least it remembers different sound levels when headphones connected and not? Or if the volume is acceptable when using smaller low impedance earbuds?


----------



## DJINFERNO806

sofgr said:


> what if "audio enchancements" are enabled but you still use  foobar2000 with the WASAPI plugin ?  i can toggle sbx efects during playback just fine btw


 
 read my post on the last page.  I covered this in detail. that setting is still a mystery and seems to do nothing at all.


----------



## atoff

So, I've been testing the SBZ a whole lot more, trying to improve the subpar sound quality and surround effect.  I've tried everything I can, and notice I much prefer the sound of the Ear Force DSS (5.1 surround) when connected to the SBZ optical after enabling Dolby Digital Live in Cinematics and settings the SBZ to 5.1 speakers, rather than headphones.   The surround is much improved, though the sound quality is decent, it's still underwhelming.  Considering my new Schiit Modi / Vali stack is going unused, would it be better for me to get rid of the SBZ in favor of the TiHD (or is there a better card yet?), since the TiHD has dobly headphone?  That way I could connect the Vali at least to the TiHD's analog out to get the better audio quality and still benefit from the preferred Dolby 5.1.   Anyone spare some advice?  I only have a couple of days left until I could return the SBZ.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Well no x-fi card has DH first of all.

It only has Dolby home theatre however and while it does have some virtual surround mode, it is not DH. The licensing of DH from Dolby is a separate product and requires it to be such. I'm quite sure we would have seen the logo displayed as every other device. Also it would have been mentioned as part of Dolby home theater's technologies.



With that said, it seems you are not a fan of sbx. Which is fair as I am not a fan of DH lol. Different people with different ears/auditory brain preferences have their favorite. No biggie.

So at this time, your best route would be to grab a xonar STX and use that with your amp through line out? Not sure if you can use DH with line out though. If not your only option is buy a cheap dgx and use optical out to get DH to a DAC and amp. But your DAC doesn't have optical in so that's a problem too.

In terms of your z being sub par in sound quality, perhaps that's subjective but I don't think you will find anyone that will not say z and its headphone out is way better than the dss. Especially in background noise.


----------



## atoff

Yeah, I should probably reiterate, because I think I made it sound like the DSS has better sound quality.  I prefer the DSS surround experience (as well as the Foobar DH plugin) to the SBX surround.  The SBX surround tends to muddy thing up quite a bit.  As for the SQ of the SBZ, I think I was spoiled by my experience with the Modi / Vali combo.  It creates a nice, clear sound, and the soundstage is nice and wide... with the SBZ it feels really confined... whether SBX is on or off.  
  
 I've been looking into the Xonar STX, not sure if it does provide DH through line out, but I'll have to do some more research.  
  
 But thanks, I was under the impression that the TiHD did DH... unfortunate that it doesn't.


----------



## SaLX

Just checking that you don't have 'full range speakers' selected. Use the Creative Diagnostic Tool to reset everything to default.
  
 I would never ever say that SBX is subpar SQ wise, or for positional accuracy, but then again maybe you like a lot of reverb? If that's the way you swing, then yes get a Xonar, however I think DJ forgot that you won't get DH from the line-outs on the STX (why Asus, why?). The cheaper Xonars yes. Get the DX instead. Or sell the stack and get a STX.. choices choices.
  
 One thing SBX isn't as good as DH is for watching 2ch movies upmixed to surround. And that's it.


----------



## SoFGR

atoff said:


> So, I've been testing the SBZ a whole lot more, trying to improve the subpar sound quality and surround effect.  I've tried everything I can, and notice I much prefer the sound of the Ear Force DSS (5.1 surround) when connected to the SBZ optical after enabling Dolby Digital Live in Cinematics and settings the SBZ to 5.1 speakers, rather than headphones.   The surround is much improved, though the sound quality is decent, it's still underwhelming.  Considering my new Schiit Modi / Vali stack is going unused, would it be better for me to get rid of the SBZ in favor of the TiHD (or is there a better card yet?), since the TiHD has dobly headphone?  That way I could connect the Vali at least to the TiHD's analog out to get the better audio quality and still benefit from the preferred Dolby 5.1.   Anyone spare some advice?  I only have a couple of days left until I could return the SBZ.


 
 mind sharing your exact settings ? tried DDL with astro mixamp and it sounded very loud and distorted even when i turned the spdif-out down to 50% (100% default ), "play stereo mix to digital output" + SBX surround 67% seemed to work much better for console-style gaming on the couch


----------



## atoff

salx said:


> Just checking that you don't have 'full range speakers' selected. Use the Creative Diagnostic Tool to reset everything to default.
> 
> I would never ever say that SBX is subpar SQ wise, or for positional accuracy, but then again maybe you like a lot of reverb? If that's the way you swing, then yes get a Xonar, however I think DJ forgot that you won't get DH from the line-outs on the STX (why Asus, why?). The cheaper Xonars yes. Get the DX instead. Or sell the stack and get a STX.. choices choices.
> 
> One thing SBX isn't as good as DH is for watching 2ch movies upmixed to surround. And that's it.


 
  
 Nope, I don't have full range speakers selected, though I did test it when testing the DSS through optical.  I've gone through and played with all of the settings.   Not a fan of reverb, that's actually PART of what annoys me about SBX, it adds a bit of reverb, whereas I get a much more natural sound through Foobar with Mixer + DH.  I don't play PC games, so it's all about movies for me.  Most of my collection consists of Dolby 5.1 or DTS 5.1-7.1.   
  
 Choices, choices is right.  I'm breaking the bank testing all this stuff, since I can't return most it.  i.e. Modi / Vali (didn't see the fine print about 15% restocking fee, since the LARGE banner "Money back guarantee" was plastered on every page - gave me a false impression that I could return it worry free).


----------



## SaLX

If you don't play games a soundcard isn't really a prerequisite for watching movies. Hopefully your motherboard has a good chip on it to connect up to your stack. You could get a Xonar U3 external for DH.
  
 Try using KMPlayer for movies..... I like the surround movie playback with it, but if you're getting mileage from Foobar then all is good isn't it?


----------



## atoff

sofgr said:


> mind sharing your exact settings ? tried DDL with astro mixamp and it sounded very loud and distorted even when i turned the spdif-out down to 50% (100% default ), "play stereo mix to digital output" + SBX surround 67% seemed to work much better for console-style gaming on the couch


 
  
 Sure... settings:
  

  

  

  
 I have SBX turned off, as well as Stereo to Digital in Advanced Features turned off, though I didn't notice a difference with it on.


----------



## atoff

salx said:


> If you don't play games a soundcard isn't really a prerequisite for watching movies. Hopefully your motherboard has a good chip on it to connect up to your stack. You could get a Xonar U3 external for DH.
> 
> Try using KMPlayer for movies..... I like the surround movie playback with it, but if you're getting mileage from Foobar then all is good isn't it?


 
  
 Ah, no, I know a soundcard wouldn't have been necessary if I wanted to watch movies through a player like J-River or KMPlayer... but I use, and much prefer to use XBMC.   Otherwise, I'd have just used my Schiit stack with J-River where I could enable DSP effects.  J-River sounds pretty good too with TB Isone, though not as good as Mixer + DH to my ears... but the whole point of getting a soundcard with surround features was to be able to experience surround using XBMC. 
  
 Also, Foobar doesn't support video files... but I do like how audio files sound using Foobar.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

atoff said:


> Sure... settings:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Ya the stereo to digital option is for sending the stereo PCM mixed with all the effects out through your optical port into an external DAC. It won't matter for you using headphone out.

Also the headphone out on the z having a confined soundstage is a common complaint. Must be the headphone amp IC since the line out doesn't feel that way.

Another option for you is what genclaymore,salx and myself do.

We use our z's through optical out to our audio gd DAC/amps. All for around $300. Pretty good deal.

The 11.32 and 15.32 are gonna be the best value for that. Depends on what DAC you want.

Personally I don't think sbx muddies anything at all. There is an eq shift which is necessary but its not as bad as cmss3d IMHO.

Razer surround on the other hand muddies... And destroys audio quality. Garbage IMO. 

But like I said different ears like different sounds.


----------



## MaxKohler

djinferno806 said:


> Another option for you is what genclaymore,salx and myself do.
> 
> We use our z's through optical out to our audio gd DAC/amps. All for around $300. Pretty good deal.
> 
> The 11.32 and 15.32 are gonna be the best value for that. Depends on what DAC you want.


 
 I thought I read that using optical out bypasses the processing that the sound card does?


----------



## DJINFERNO806

maxkohler said:


> I thought I read that using optical out bypasses the processing that the sound card does?




That's never been said here.

In fact its the opposite. Otherwise we wouldn't need the z at all would we?

The z processes everything on the soundcore3d chip and then sends the digital PCM stream to either the onboard DAC for conversion to analogue and/or sends it out through optical to an external DAC.

So basically the stream is the exact same as the one going to the onboard DAC, it just gets split into another duplicate stream to go through optical. This way its simple, efficient and does not require any extra calculations on the sound processor. But this second duplicate stream only gets sent to optical port if the *"play stereo mix to digital output"* option is enabled in the control panel of the Z.


----------



## SaLX

@Atoff.... you're never ever ever (repeat to fade...) going to get a good sound on headphones with that setup. You've got 5.1 speakers selected..... the only time you would even dream of doing that is if you had a surround sound headset (like the Razers) which has multiple jacks and speakers in them. I was a bit pissed the other night and was farting around with the settings; next day tried a game, and immediately clocked something was wrong as I had selected 5.1 speakers instead of 2 speaker headphones.
  
 Go back and try headphone out only please. I agree with you about movies (2ch), but not movies encoded in surround.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Wait? I thought he was using the headphone out? It wouldn't even work with headphone port on 5.1 speakers. Wasn't it headphone out to the vali?

And if he's using optical out to the DSS. 5.1 needs to be selected to properly get 5.1 channels encoded with did live and then decided by the DSS and then turned into DH signal.

Ughh lol

Atoff, it seems your a little all over the place.

What is your current headphone setup from the z? 

And are u using optical out at all or only to the DSS?


----------



## MaxKohler

So are you getting better gaming sound (positional accuracy) than the ZXR with that setup (external DAC & AMP), or is it mainly for music?


----------



## SaLX

Better as in degrees, not in _huge_ gains. I'm happy I went with the Z > External DAC/Amp. Don't worry about these things really.. the more you read on these forums the more you want. The headphone itself is the huge No.1 decider here. 
  
 The ZxR is a great, if overpriced card. If Creative had released a paired down version of the ZxR to compete on the same terms as the STX (in terms of price) then it would be gold purchase.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

For me the soundstage opened up a bit which for dt770s which are closed so any bit more soundstage is a huge deal lol.

The rest of the major reasons were using it with any PC, console or media player that has optical. As well as plenty of power and an amazing DAC section. 

Like Sal said, positional accuracy is going to be mainly headphones then after that which surround technology.


----------



## atoff

salx said:


> @Atoff.... you're never ever ever (repeat to fade...) going to get a good sound on headphones with that setup. You've got 5.1 speakers selected..... the only time you would even dream of doing that is if you had a surround sound headset (like the Razers) which has multiple jacks and speakers in them. I was a bit pissed the other night and was farting around with the settings; next day tried a game, and immediately clocked something was wrong as I had selected 5.1 speakers instead of 2 speaker headphones.
> 
> Go back and try headphone out only please. I agree with you about movies (2ch), but not movies encoded in surround.


 
  
 I think you're confused about what I've done.
  
 Of course I've been using it with Headphones set through the stereo out.  The settings I have pictured are for use with the DSS.
  
 This produces a much better surround positioning for me.  The sounds actually sound like they're coming from the directions they're intended to.
 Setting 5.1 speakers, then settings Dolby Live and running the DSS through optical, allowing the DSS to decode the 5.1 using Dolby. SQ is still subpar though, doesn't change the degradation, it just sounds wider and more immersive. 
  






 I'm new to "gaming / surround" sound cards, not new to audio or settings.  
  
@DJINFERNO806 Thanks for the tip, I'll have a look into that DAC/AMP you mention.


----------



## atoff

djinferno806 said:


> Wait? I thought he was using the headphone out? It wouldn't even work with headphone port on 5.1 speakers. Wasn't it headphone out to the vali?
> 
> And if he's using optical out to the DSS. 5.1 needs to be selected to properly get 5.1 channels encoded with did live and then decided by the DSS and then turned into DH signal.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yes, I am using optical out, to the DSS.  When using stereo out, I switch the settings of course.  I'm not all over the place, I think SaLX was just confused.  
  
 Testing the SBZ directly through headphones - Headphone settings, 5.1 in windows... testing the DSS through optical - SBZ set to Speakers (5.1) with Dolby Live enabled... that way it sends the encoded Dolby to DSS where DSS decodes the Dolby.


----------



## chicolom

atoff said:


> testing the DSS through optical -* SBZ set to Speakers (5.1) with Dolby Live enabled*... that way it sends the encoded Dolby to DSS where DSS decodes the Dolby.


 
  
  
 I don't _think _you even need to set the SBZ to Speakers (5.1) for using DD live encoding.
  
 That speakers 5.1 setting ^ is for the _analog_ outs, while the DD live setting is for the optical out.  So I think you can set the output to "Headphones" and you will still get DD live when setting it to encode it, as those settings affect two different parts of the card (analog out, spdif out) and are unrelated to each other when using DDL.
  
_"The audio device 'SPIDF-OUT (Sound Blaster Z)' will be used *exclusively *for Dolby Digital Live and DTS that no other software (such as media player applciations and games) can play directly to the audio device."_


----------



## atoff

chicolom said:


> atoff said:
> 
> 
> > testing the DSS through optical -* SBZ set to Speakers (5.1) with Dolby Live enabled*... that way it sends the encoded Dolby to DSS where DSS decodes the Dolby.
> ...




There was a reason I switched it from headphone to speaker 5.1 for the DSS... Can't recall the reasoning, but I did have it set for Headphones, but I believe I had better results with it set to Speakers... Though I'll have to test again to see why it was I did that.


----------



## oqvist

Has there been any comparison between the Soundblister X-Fi elite Pro and the zXR. Elite pro for me was a better soundcard then the Essence ST but have no PCI slot in my new PC build.


----------



## PurpleAngel

oqvist said:


> Has there been any comparison between the Sound Blaster X-Fi elite Pro and the ZxR. Elite pro for me was a better sound card then the Essence ST but have no PCI slot in my new PC build.


 
 The ZxR's PCM1794 DAC chip should be better then the SB-Elite-Pro's CS4382 DAC chip.
 I would also assume(?) the ZxR' op-amps are better then the SB-Elite-Pro's.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

chicolom said:


> I don't _think_ you even need to set the SBZ to Speakers (5.1) for using DD live encoding.
> 
> That speakers 5.1 setting ^ is for the _analog_ outs, while the DD live setting is for the optical out.  So I think you can set the output to "Headphones" and you will still get DD live when setting it to encode it, as those settings affect two different parts of the card (analog out, spdif out) and are unrelated to each other when using DDL.
> 
> _"The audio device 'SPIDF-OUT (Sound Blaster Z)' will be used *exclusively* for Dolby Digital Live and DTS that no other software (such as media player applciations and games) can play directly to the audio device."_




If only it were that easy with the z series. The digital out is affected by any DSP or setting you make to the control panel. I've tested this. 

However would the DD live or DTS encoding matter it were 5.1 or headphones? More testing is needed as for all we know there might be a weird downmixing happening. What I will say is that when you enable any encoder, the Z panel auto enables 5.1 speakers instead of heapdbones.

I'll test this out when I get home later on my avr...


----------



## SoFGR

tried to play some spec ops the line with DDL and  mixamp's dolby headphone 2, plenty of distortion when i set "spidf-out" down to 50%, positional audio was not that good either !  so i ditched the toslink cable and used the RCA input, (  headphone output of my case -------> astromixamp RCA input  ) there's a little hum but the sound positioning is much  more defined thanks to SBX surround !


----------



## chicolom

djinferno806 said:


> If only it were that easy with the z series. The digital out is affected by any DSP or setting you make to the control panel. I've tested this.
> 
> However would the DD live or DTS encoding matter it were 5.1 or headphones? More testing is needed as for all we know there might be a weird downmixing happening. What I will say is that when you enable any encoder, the Z panel auto enables 5.1 speakers instead of heapdbones.
> 
> I'll test this out when I get home later on my avr...


 
  
  
 I see.  
  
 Well that certainly makes things a bit more confusing, where DD encoding is affected when making adjustments in the control panel.   
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I'm not sure what you're asking here:
_"However would the DD live or DTS encoding matter it were 5.1 or headphones?"_
  
 The reason he was trying to get DD live was to feed his DSS.
  
  


sofgr said:


> tried to play some spec ops the line with DDL and  mixamp's dolby headphone 2, plenty of distortion when i set "spidf-out" down to 50%, positional audio was not that good either !  so i ditched the toslink cable and used the RCA input, (  headphone output of my case -------> astromixamp RCA input  ) there's a little hum but the sound positioning is much  more defined thanks to SBX surround !


 
  
 Is there any particular reason you're using your mixamp_ in conjunction_ with the SB Z, if your simply using analog outputs from the SB Z and using it's own SBX Pro surround?  Wouldn't it be simpler to plug directly in the SB Z?


----------



## DJINFERNO806

chicolom said:


> I see.
> 
> Well that certainly makes things a bit more confusing, where DD encoding is affected when making adjustments in the control panel.   :confused_face:
> 
> ...




I mean, would the way the z processes certain effects before encoding it matter based on whether headphones or 5.1 speakers were selected in z panel.

This needs more testing. As the way this card does certain things isn't always transparent to us. Just look at all the stuff we have found out ourselves about this cards functionality so far. Creative needs to stop dumbing down or "streamlining" settings. They think the average Joe gamer is too dumb to play around with sound card settings.


----------



## chicolom

I've noticed that (with the DSS hooked up via optical and the SB Z set to encode DDL), that the sound changes when you toggle between 5.1 and Headphones in the SB control panel.  Maybe it's toggling between DD 5.1 channel and DD 2-channel digital stereo. 
  
 I'll have to test it more, but I though toggling SBX Pro ON/OFF _also_ affected the DDL encode...


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Well even without encoding. Sbx affects everything even with 5.1 speakers selected in z panel. It upmizes 2 channel sounds to surround. 

And if all DSP effects get encoded, it would stand to reason that sbx should be no different.


----------



## chicolom

I assumed that when DDL encoding was enabled, it would bypass all other SB Z processing and just go directly from the source (game's multi-channel audio) to Dolby Digital with no stops or processing in between.
  
 So I assumed that when DDL was enabled, nothing you could do in the SB Z control panel would affect it, but it turns out most things affect it.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

If you weren't able to encode all the effects on the z, it wouldn't really have it stand apart from say a motherboard that can encode as well. Creative has to offer more to justify the price.

I haven't tried yet but when encoding is enabled, does the z still output from analogue as well?


----------



## chicolom

It still does analog out when DDL is encoding on optical.


----------



## SaLX

Got a reply from Creative about the enhancements setting.
  
 Me: 





> I have a question regarding a particular setting in Windows (7 or 8) for the Soundblaster Z, Zx and ZxR, and whether it is appropriate to select it or not: In Windows Mixer (or Sound Control Panel) there is an entry under Advanced Properties for ***_Signal enhancements_***. Does Creative recommend ticking the _"enable audio enhancements"_ box or not? I am scratching my head as to what that exact setting does. Any ideas?


 

   Creative:


> I was advised by the relevant department that we have no technical information about the audio enhancement feature as this is implemented by Microsoft on how they look at our soundcards. I suggest to contact Microsoft for more information.
> 
> Please note that we rely on our own software for audio enhancements, normally audio enhancement in active, however if you encounter any issues with our soundcard we recommend to disable the feature as it may also cause an issue with our software. If you have further questions, please do not hesitate to get back to us.
> 
> ...


----------



## Anarion

Lol?! What a response...


----------



## Meduseld

Hi !
  
 To gaming, you prefer Stereo or Surround with SBX ? 
  
  
 ty


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Most of us on this thread prefer sbx surround as that's the primary reason we bought the card. With that said, nothing wrong with stereo.


----------



## Meduseld

Ty
  
  
 Surround must be used on any type of game ? Only FPS ?


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Surround can be used in all kinds of games for more immersion. Its not limited to fps. Its all depending on your taste and style.


----------



## GrayRaven

If i hook up a console to the card via optical in, would i benefit from the dac, amp and SBX surround?
  
 If only they put a line/mic out too


----------



## chicolom

grayraven said:


> If i hook up a console to the card via optical in, would i benefit from the dac, amp and SBX surround?
> 
> If only they put a line/mic out too


 
  
 I believe the optical IN only accepts 2 channel audio (not DD 5.1), so it would be upscaled/interpolated surround - not worth doing IMO.


----------



## Fegefeuer

Yeah, kinda sad. Those few bucks for the lincensing fee. Creative cheapened out again.
  
 I remember watching movies with the X-Fi Xtreme Music by letting the media player send the ac3 via passthrough to the spdif out (nothing connected there). 
 That's where the hardware decoder of the X-Fi came in and grabbed the stream to decode it to my headphones.


----------



## GrayRaven

chicolom said:


> I believe the optical IN only accepts 2 channel audio (not DD 5.1), so it would be upscaled/interpolated surround - not worth doing IMO.


 
  
 I see what creative did there. thanks.


----------



## SaLX

Is it worth upgrading to Windows 8 (or 8.1) now for any discernible improvement over Windows 7 with the SB Z line of cards; or even any more general improvements audio wise?
  
 Thanks for any replies.


----------



## Evshrug

grayraven said:


> I see what creative did there. thanks.



Yeah, the ONLY creative product I know of that accepts DDL input and produces headphone surround output was the Recon3D USB.

 I...
I...
I was going to say something else, but after getting this far during my break and now being ready to go home, I have no idea what else I was going to say. Cuz you all needed to know. SOUND BLASTER BWAAAP BWAAAP BWAAAP!!!!


----------



## chicolom

salx said:


> Is it worth upgrading to Windows 8 (or 8.1) now for any discernible improvement over Windows 7 with the SB Z line of cards; or even any more general improvements audio wise?
> 
> Thanks for any replies.


 
  
 Not sure, as I've only used it on Windows 8.1.  If your reformatting anyways though, it would make sense to put Windows 8.1 on just to be up-to-date.


----------



## PurpleAngel

salx said:


> Is it worth upgrading to Windows 8 (or 8.1) now for any discernible improvement over Windows 7 with the SB Z line of cards; or even any more general improvements audio wise?
> 
> Thanks for any replies.


 
 I've been using Win 8.1 with a SB-Z.
 I use the program Classic Shell to make my Win 8.1 look like Win 7, so I can't really see a good reason for upgrading to Win 8.1.
 As a matter of fact, I might need to replace my motherboard, might go back to Win 7 at the same time.


----------



## SaLX

I read 'somewhere' that Windows 8 handles audio in a different manner..... would that be correct .. or is it just a fresh coat of paint?


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Windows 8 audio stack was slightly rewritten to include audio hardware acceleration again.  The wasapi module is now able to offload streams directly to a hardware layer and bypass the software mixer.  Nothing I have heard of or seen has used this yet though so its interesting to see how it will play out.
  
  
  
*WINDOWS 7 Audio Stack*
  




  
*WINDOWS 8 AUDIO STACK*
  




  
  
  
  
 But just in general there were quite a few changes to 8 and 8.1 on the kernel side of things and optimizations to the memory management system.  I noticed it did run a bit faster in certain situations in the desktop environment especially with SSD's.  Also gaming wise there was a few fps difference in some of the titles but few and far between.  BF4 had a big benefit in that it was more stable and ran faster in WIN 8.  Not sure if it was due to its DX11.2 optimization that the devs were touting or not.
  
 But just in general its a quicker OS that uses less resources and has better latency across different hardware.  And like Chicolom said, there is no point not to have 8.1 if you are reformatting.  Contrary to popular belief and Gaben fanboys(ughh...) Windows 8 is a good OS if you overlook the metro UI and install classic start.  8,1 brought back the start button somewhat although classic start is still the better alternative as its more robust.


----------



## SaLX

+1 and many thanks for that comprehensive response DJ. How about the windows volume mixer? Is it still as scatty as Win 7: I'm having a hell of a time even after a complete reinstall - still getting bizarre clipping trying to balance it all..... and that's on the SBZ alone, optical out to my DAC, the onboard audio AND another USB headset... grrr.  I'm using the DPC latency checker and that checks out. Anyway.. don't want to bang on about it and this isn't the place.
  
 On a plus note I'm about to get BF4 soon so why the hell not - moar FPS is always good.
  

  
 OK, this is another soundcard.. but I get this from my SBZ (on it's own). I know all,_ like all _the things that have been suggested to correct the weird volume crap with Windows. At this setting (fresh install)  it's at medium volume, but it's all compressed, clipped and not right at all. Any body else having this problem?


----------



## DJINFERNO806

The volume mixer hasn't changed in the wasapi shared state as far as I know. But then again I've never really had any issues with it even in 7 so I can't really be of much help there.

Usually I'd look at the high pass filter settings(full or limited range speaker settings) for clipping problems or latency issues for popping and crackling. Other than that its hard to tell.

Might as well do a full format and install 8.1 and see if that helps. I am running 8.1 without issues currently. And that's with the latest driver.

Ohhh bf4... My time has been wasted on that lately lmao.


----------



## Fegefeuer

Gaben Fanboys. Nice. Almost every NeoGAF PC thread is full of that annoying worship. 
  
 Anyway, what will Creative do? So far they have nothing to offer against True Audio or anything else. They just don't care enough, not even the slightest Middleware support. No, nothing.
  
 Well, they are shrinking anyway...


----------



## SaLX

Full range speakers.. on or off for the SBZ range? I've seen posts from various contributors who have offered up contrary opinions on the matter, and I know at least it's to do with compression, but what _does it do_ _exactly ? _
  
 You'd think enabling it would be the thing to do... any consensus here???


----------



## DJINFERNO806

From my knowledge of the windows audio stack(taken from ms documents and audio stack engineer videos), its a simple high pass software filter. I don't remember reading anywhere about any dynamic range compression filter though. 

I know that a lot of speakers and subs will use a hardware dynamic range compression filter on top of high pass filter and crossover to help out the frequency response from feeling anaemic or hollow I guess the term would be.

I don't know if the z's high pass filter includes compression either. Its not stated anywhere. But its possible. It would benefit owners of low end speakers that would normally sound unimpressive in the high and low end of the response curve.

@feg

Neogaf in general is a fanboy hotspot and needs to be shut down. Many a flame war have been started there. But then again so is ign and ganetrailers lol. Oh well what can you do.


----------



## NCSUZoSo

Is there something similar to WASPI for Windows in general instead of plugins for specific applications like Foobar?


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Wasapi exclusive shouldn't require any plugins. Its available as a system resource in most programs.

Your only other option is asio but that's a plugin usually and a separate driver.


----------



## SaLX

J River works very well with the SBZ, Prefer it to Foobar for no other reason than it's easier to use. Some nice filters come as default, although I'm sure Foobar will do the same thing.


----------



## chicolom

salx said:


> Full range speakers.. on or off for the SBZ range? I've seen posts from various contributors who have offered up contrary opinions on the matter, and I know at least it's to do with compression, but what _does it do_ _exactly ? _
> 
> You'd think enabling it would be the thing to do... any consensus here???


 
  
 Do full range.  Headphones are full range after all.
  
 If you want your bass to route to your a subwoofer instead of your 2.1 satellite speakers, than you can un-check it.
  


salx said:


> J River works very well with the SBZ, Prefer it to Foobar for no other reason than it's easier to use. Some nice filters come as default, although I'm sure Foobar will do the same thing.


 
  
 Foobar is ugly as hell at stock and also a bit of a pain to use.
  
 My favorite music player by far is *MusicBee*.  Tons of features, easy to use, and perfectly layed out out-of-the-box.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

The z driver defaults windows to not have full range checked and will change back on reboot if you try full. I'm gonna go ahead and assume theirs a reason to do with the way 5.1 channels are sent to the z. 

The real settings for full range on the z I assume are controlled in its own panel.


----------



## chicolom

djinferno806 said:


> The z driver defaults windows to not have full range checked and will change back on reboot if you try full. I'm gonna go ahead and assume theirs a reason to do with the way 5.1 channels are sent to the z.
> 
> The real settings for full range on the z I assume are controlled in its own panel.


 
  
  
 Oh, I thought you guys were talking about the "_stereo_" configuration, not the "5.1".  In stereo, full range is checked, but in 5.1 full range it is NOT checked.  With 5.1 I imagine the Z is doing it's own mixing of the bass/subwoofer back into the output so you probably don't need full-range checked. 
  
 I would probably make all your sound adjustments in the SB Z control panel, as it looks like changing settings there also changes them in the windows audio control panel anyways (and resetting it to default from the Z panel also resets them in the windows panel).  Interestingly though, changing settings in the windows panel doesn't seem to affect the Z's control panel.


----------



## Evshrug

Just an FYI update for those interested, I just today uninstalled and removed my SB Z, so I am ready to install the Omni tomorrow night. I may not post impressions right away, but if I do it'll be later at night.


----------



## m00s3

I just got my zxr installed it's nice when it's working properly. I'm having an issue where the channels are being swapped seemingly at random. I skimmed through the post and I didn't see if anyone else mentioned having the issue. Any help is greatly appreciated


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Apparently this is a common issue with botched driver installs and/or a dated OS install. 

Uninstall, driver sweeper and reinstall. 

Also if you are using Windows 8.1 there might be an issue with certain sampling frequencies above 48 kHz causing this. But I haven't had that issue. But I also have a clean OS install days old.


----------



## SaLX

Chico.... will have a look at Musicbee - actually looks really very very good, however I paid for J River so I guess I'll stick with it.
  
 Thanks all for the insights on fullrange speakers etc.. well I was stoopid really asking about it. Creative automatically setting up it's paramaters on boot is a 'good thing' - no doubt about that.
  
 @Eve.. you're Omni _should_ perform exactly like your old SBZ.. I'd be surprised if it didn't.. but then computerland throws up weird **** all the time and I'm sure we're all of us looking forward to your impressions.


----------



## Evshrug

SaLX,
I'm... Well, I'm a guy, so eve doesn't really got  Would be awesome to get some perspective from the fairer sex of course ;D

And yeah, the Omni ought to be near-identical to the Z (with a few bucks lower price tag, and digital volume knob), but I want to also see how the K712 performs plugged directly in to the unit.

I unboxed and installed my Omni, but I didn't have time for testing before a coworker's party at the Saloon. So happy 23rd to him, you guys gotta wait just a bit longer 


I uninstalled the SB Z drivers using the windows Control Panel, so it'll also be a test to see if Creative's suggested procedure breaks the drivers. Been lucky so far, except that my second Recon3D USB seems to sound flatter than my old one (before it was an easy preference over DH from the turtle beach DSS, the new recon3D seems to have a harder time creating a believable virtual soundstage).


----------



## SaLX

Lol sorry Eve"s" .. damn ..made that mistake before so apologies. OK call me SheSal from now on..... I'll smear on the lippy, wiggle into a cheap dress and we can call it quits. _(where is this going lol).. _


----------



## germanium

Just bought the ZXR today. Did not care for the sound. Was lifeless & closed in compared to my modified X-Fi Titanium HD. Did the same mods to the ZXR& back to heaven. Same sound characteristics only slightly even better that Titanium HD that was modified after modification of the ZXR


----------



## Radical_53

Which mods did it receive? The sound of the two cards was/is very close (if not the same) in their original state, definitely.


----------



## germanium

radical_53 said:


> Which mods did it receive? The sound of the two cards was/is very close (if not the same) in their original state, definitely.


 
 Direct coupling the I/V amps to the buffers & bypassing select power supply caps with large value (12uf which is a large value for a metalized film cap) metalized film cap. The Titanium HD was somewhat livelier sounding stock than the ZXR was to my ears but then again I'm going by memory concerning the stock Titanium HD sound. Treble also seemed a bit harsher stock as well on the Titanium HD but it was somewhat more open sounding than the ZXR stock


----------



## x7007

Is it worth to replace my Xonar Phoebus for ZXR ? Mainly I want the Headphones Surround, SBX and such. I have DT990 600ohms so I'm interested  on high quality.
  
 I noticed too that the Frequency Response is 10-45 kHz, my headphones is doing 5-35 kHz, is the 5 no important ? So is the xonar doing the same Frequency Response.


----------



## germanium

x7007 said:


> Is it worth to replace my Xonar Phoebus for ZXR ? Mainly I want the Headphones Surround, SBX and such. I have DT990 600ohms so I'm interested  on high quality.
> 
> I noticed too that the Frequency Response is 10-45 kHz, my headphones is doing 5-35 kHz, is the 5 no important ? So is the xonar doing the same Frequency Response.


 
 If I remember correctly the Xonar Phoebus is very close to the ZXR in hardware, just one step down in the chosen DAC but I doubt you would hear the difference of the DAC choice as they both are very high performing Burr Brown DAC's.
  
 It is highly unlikely you would here any difference between 5Hz & 10Hz extension as both are well below what the human ear can hear. I direct couple everything in order to have the flattest response with the least phase shift in the audio band & for the simple reason that it sounds more lively with much better sound stage. Bass sound tighter & just as extended but without any excess prominence that I hear from the stock ZXR. Highs are more extended sounding as well as smoother with my mods.


----------



## x7007

germanium said:


> If I remember correctly the Xonar Phoebus is very close to the ZXR in hardware, just one step down in the chosen DAC but I doubt you would hear the difference of the DAC choice as they both are very high performing Burr Brown DAC's.
> 
> It is highly unlikely you would here any difference between 5Hz & 10Hz extension as both are well below what the human ear can hear. I direct couple everything in order to have the flattest response with the least phase shift in the audio band & for the simple reason that it sounds more lively with much better sound stage. Bass sound tighter & just as extended but without any excess prominence that I hear from the stock ZXR.


 
 So if it was your choice, would you recommend to skip the  SBX surround and to use the Razer surround ?
  
 I'm really liking the surround option cause I played so much with the SteelSeries 5CHv2 it was really immersion  with the CMSS-3D.
  
 Of course I'm now trying to go for Hi-Fi and to keep the surround, if you compare, is SBX surround better than Razer Surround ?


----------



## SaLX

I'm sure DJ will weigh in on here about your Beyer 600ohms... do what we did, and get a vanilla Z and an external DAC/AMP connected optically. @germanium - You know your stuff really well obviously, but I'd make the same plunge too 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
  
 Razer Surround isn't that great really.. if you like it then that's great. The consensus is though that the SQ falters, though your mileage may vary.


----------



## germanium

x7007 said:


> So if it was your choice, would you recommend to skip the  SBX surround and to use the Razer surround ?
> 
> I'm really liking the surround option cause I played so much with the SteelSeries 5CHv2 it was really immersion  with the CMSS-3D.
> 
> Of course I'm now trying to go for Hi-Fi and to keep the surround, if you compare, is SBX surround better than Razer Surround ?


 
 I don't do surround on headphones or speakers so I can't answer that question. A top notch setup does not need those effects really. Very few surround effects processors for headphones don't affect the signal in negative ways. Creative's CMSS-3D was about the best I've heard as it didn't mess with sound such as adding a ton of reverb as Dolby headphone surround does for example.


----------



## SoFGR

x-fi  headphone  cmss3d actually makes  200$ cans sound like  10$ ones, sbx surround is much better  than razer (for my setup and ears that is )  especially in l4d2 !
  
 Btw i like to play console-ish games on the couch, but my gaming PC is in the bedroom, that's why i use a 5M toslink cable and an astro mixamp, did some further testing in spec ops : the line yesterday, DH2 vs SBX surround,  dolby headphone is not  bad  immersion wise but compared to SBX surround (67%) everything sounds  distant.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Just a word of advice. Do some more research into the zxr before you buy it. A lot of users report it doesn't properly power the DT series 600 ohm versions. 

Also just for sbx surround, unless you get a really good price for the Phoebus, I wouldn't upgrade to the zxr. Financially it makes no sense just for the surround tech. Doesn't the Phoebus come with Dolby headphones? Its pretty good too. You may like it.


----------



## Radical_53

Thanks a lot! Sounds quite interesting, sadly also too complicated for a plug&play upgrader like me


----------



## x7007

djinferno806 said:


> Just a word of advice. Do some more research into the zxr before you buy it. A lot of users report it doesn't properly power the DT series 600 ohm versions.
> 
> Also just for sbx surround, unless you get a really good price for the Phoebus, I wouldn't upgrade to the zxr. Financially it makes no sense just for the surround tech. Doesn't the Phoebus come with Dolby headphones? Its pretty good too. You may like it.


 
 Phoebus dolby surround is crap, it only upmix stereo so you hear the same noise from behind and front, you won't the extra sound like virtual surround Razer or SBX.
  
 Razer surround makes "real" 7.1
 SBX surround makes "real" 5.1
 Xonar Phoebus dolby surround upmix stereo to x2 stereo
 Xonar Phoebus Xear has virtual 7.1 but it sound so crappy with 100% Echo and Revereb.


----------



## germanium

germanium said:


> I don't do surround on headphones or speakers so I can't answer that question. A top notch setup does not need those effects really. Very few surround effects processors for headphones don't affect the signal in negative ways. Creative's CMSS-3D was about the best I've heard as it didn't mess with sound such as adding a ton of reverb as Dolby headphone surround does for example.




By not needing the effects engines to generate convincing surround sound field is I have some recordings that image well beyond the speakers without any added effects at least at my end. I have heard on my system some recordings done with blumliem microphone setups ( crossed figure eight mikes)  that are extremely convincing as the sound completely surrounds you in spite just having direct feed from 2 microphones. Here I'm talking of listening to them across my speakers not headphones


----------



## x7007

Why the Phoebus can power the DT990 600ohms and the ZXR can't if on paper they are the same and ZXR has better SNR power ratio.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Because regardless of what headphone amp chip is in both, they are implemented differently. Hence why the zxr has an output impedance of 40 ohm vs the Phoebus' 10 ohm.

The voltage regulation stage most likely was designed a little differently.


----------



## x7007

So ZXR has higher output impedance,, isn't that better than 10 ohm only ? I just want to see the big picture.


----------



## germanium

x7007 said:


> So ZXR has higher output impedance,, isn't that better than 10 ohm only ? I just want to see the big picture.


 
 Lower output impedance usually better but not in all situations. Example some single driver balanced armature earphones are designed to work with higher  output impedances. Some earphones output impedance does not matter & others demand very low output impedance so it all depends on the phone but most will do better with low output impedance.
  
 There are other equally important factors relating to sound quality from earphone amplifiers that can make them sound bloated in bass such as coupling capacitor quality especially those going to ground from the negative feedback loop as these control the gain of the amplifier & as such the quality of this cap or lack thereof is amplified by the gain of the amp. A poor quality cap here can & will make the sound bloated as if lacking control even if the output impedance of the amp is low.
  
 Power supply of the amp is also important though may not be noticeable with low quality coupling caps. Replace or get rid of coupling caps & you will start to hear the difference that power supply caps make. These are smaller but equally important differences.
  
 The mods I did to the ZXR addresses these issues with the cards analog output section as it sounded somewhat bloated stock to my ears


----------



## bizkid

I recently compared the SB Z to the Focusrite 2i2 USB Interface using my active speakers. For me the SBZ came out as the winnner. It's sound is lively with punchy bass, the Focusrite sounds flat in comparison. The Focusrite had better and more natural sounding mids but the differenece was small. Too bad i sold my SBZ to get the Focusrite, now i have to buy one again


----------



## germanium

bizkid said:


> I recently compared the SB Z to the Focusrite 2i2 USB Interface using my active speakers. For me the SBZ came out as the winnner. It's sound is lively with punchy bass, the Focusrite sounds flat in comparison. The Focusrite had better and more natural sounding mids but the differenece was small. Too bad i sold my SBZ to get the Focusrite, now i have to buy one again




While I did find the bass punchy the bass was too prominent & slightly bloated. Back ground instruments were not clear & sound stage was flattened considerably compared to what the basic hardware was in fact capable of. Imaging was OK but just ok, nothing special on the ZXR card stock.


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

germanium said:


> While I did find the bass punchy the bass was too prominent & slightly bloated. Back ground instruments were not clear & sound stage was flattened considerably compared to what the basic hardware was in fact capable of. Imaging was OK but just ok, nothing special on the ZXR card stock.


 

 Fully agreed, wasn't particularly impressed with ZxR's stock sound, like you said, the bass is too bloated and it's a bit overly warm and the soundstage is very claustrophobic (but that can easily be down to Creative driver's fault on how they handle "speaker config" processing as they've had their own way of doing that since Audigy days which could easily ruin spatial cues if attempt to modify cues with extra software/hardware processing). Nothing to complain about mids though, vocals and piano in particular with a hint of analogueness to it, fullbodied, well-weighted. The ZxR do mids beautifully but that's the only thing I was truly impressed about.


----------



## NCSUZoSo

Change the opamps on the ZXR and you open up an entire new sound stage.
  
 Lol, I have a spare MUSES01 because I rolled so many opamps to find the right sound.


----------



## germanium

ncsuzoso said:


> Change the opamps on the ZXR and you open up an entire new sound stage.
> 
> Lol, I have a spare MUSES01 because I rolled so many opamps to find the right sound.


 

 Found my own sound without rolling opamps though it did take a little work. Direct coupling  & power supply cap bypasses with large value metalized films did the trick. Sound is perfect, Huge soundstage, articulate midrange that still is warm & musical & more harmonically complete, imaging that goes well beyond the edges of the speakers on a regular basis. Smoother & yet more detailed treble. sibilants that don't feel like you ears are getting laser drilled & yet contain more detail that make the sibilants sound natural. Bass though still strong does not take center stage anymore in terms of dominating the sound, the clean & very articulate midrange does which is how it is supposed to be. Sounds nothing like the stock ZXR card at all, yet all the main active hardware is stock, only capacitor modifications. Speakers disappear into the sound field which is what stereo is supposed to do when done properly


----------



## yoyo711

SBz or headphone amp fiio e9k

Please let me know

Thanks


----------



## Evshrug

Omni first impressions:

Using a Q701 out of familiarity (and cuz I know on some sound systems the treble can seem to have an edge).

The control panel is a little different than the SB Z and Recon3D USB, by default it was set for 5.1 surround instead of headphones, and interestingly the surround default setting was 40%. I turned the surround up to 65% (and left on crystalizer, turned down to like 15%, turned on Smart Dialogue to about 33%).

Oddly, my external volume control does nothing. It feels nice, with some soft detents and a feeling of momentum when you turn it, and you can click it, but it wasn't changing volume for me. No biggie, my keyboard has volume controls. Also, the red glow along the center ridge and around the volume is cool!

When I put on Borderlands 2, I was impressed, even with the Q701s plugged straight in. First, I was concerned because I heard an odd, regular clicking noise, but that went away about a minute after I got past the borderlands 2 menus. In-Game, the 1st thing I noticed was what a surreally believable (ironic, I know) soundstage of surround positioning the Omni (and SBX ProStudio) created. Even without stopping in front of a fire or something making constant sound and spinning around, I loaded with Ellie in front of me and talking, and it was instantly apparent that she was positioned in-front of me. Second, it felt like the volume clearly had a lot of headroom at listenable levels, I felt no need to reach for my E12 amp to double-up. I also didn't detect the raised treble harshness that the Q701 exhibits with some amps and DAPs... It was very clear and detailed, perhaps bright, but very controlled and I didn't get fatigued (didn't notice I had played for 5 hours straight, either).

I expect that my volume dial issue is due to driver wonkiness, but ladies and gentlemen... the Omni is at least equal sounding to the SB Z, without any compromises I could detect. Win!


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

evshrug said:


> Omni first impressions:
> 
> Using a Q701 out of familiarity (and cuz I know on some sound systems the treble can seem to have an edge).
> 
> ...


 

 Quick question, can you select "speakers" as speakertype in the Creative interface when using headphones with the Omni? I've always been under the impression (At least Audigy - Titanium HD) that "speakers" as opposed to "headphones" selected in Creative driverpanel while 5.1 speakers is set in windows control panel produces better stereo imaging/better soundstaging and since I'm forced to use "headphones" if I want to use amped headphone port on ZxR I'm not happy. From my experience headphone makes it more closed-in sounding with less clear imaging compared to speakers.


----------



## Anarion

Yes you can. Though doing that through line out makes difference too (since OpenAL games seem to only care about headphone or speaker mode). In Borderlands 2 one should enable OpenAL (and use correct device name) in which case SBX setting doesn't matter at all.


----------



## x7007

Compare to SBX, how to use the Dolby Surround on the Xonar phoebus ?
 Do I need to select Hi-Fi and surround in-game for example BF4 ? or do I need to select something else.
  
 For example Need for speed Rivals, how will I know I'm getting 7.1 from there and many other games, cause with Creative you saw you have 5.1 speakers from the windows speakers settings.
  
 With xonar if I'm not using Xear 7.1 then it shows only 2 channels.
  
 I don't know how to get 5.1 or 7.1 with the dolby headphones surround, So are in movies, Do I need to select in PotPlayer Same as input for DTS-MA 5.1/7.1 movies ?  and so on in PowerDVD13 and Arcsoft Theater. they have their own Dolby processing, I don't know if I need the DHTv4 and the settings in the player.


----------



## germanium

rpgwizard said:


> Fully agreed, wasn't particularly impressed with ZxR's stock sound, like you said, the bass is too bloated and it's a bit overly warm and the soundstage is very claustrophobic (but that can easily be down to Creative driver's fault on how they handle "speaker config" processing as they've had their own way of doing that since Audigy days which could easily ruin spatial cues if attempt to modify cues with extra software/hardware processing). Nothing to complain about mids though, vocals and piano in particular with a hint of analogueness to it, fullbodied, well-weighted. The ZxR do mids beautifully but that's the only thing I was truly impressed about.


 

 Midrange is much improved with my mods. One does not realize what they are missing until it is heard with a top notch system. I found the midrange when stock though pleasant lacked in articulation to a very large degree. Especially noticeable on background instruments which were clouded over as if one stuffed their ears with cotton, not very clear at all. Instruments sound much more harmonically complete when modified in the fashion that I did. Back ground instruments & voices are very much clearer than before while having a much improved sense of depth & location in the sound field. Sound does retain a certain warmth all the while sounding much more revealing. One could call this warmth in the sound as sounding musical yet it is not in any way over done. The sound to me at least once my modifications were done is perfect to my ears with this card. Though much more articulate the sound is far from cold & sterile.


----------



## bizkid

rpgwizard said:


> Fully agreed, wasn't particularly impressed with ZxR's stock sound, like you said, the bass is too bloated and it's a bit overly warm and the soundstage is very claustrophobic


 
  
 I get none of that on the SB Z


----------



## Fegefeuer

anarion said:


> Yes you can. Though doing that through line out makes difference too (since OpenAL games seem to only care about headphone or speaker mode). In Borderlands 2 one should enable OpenAL (and use correct device name) in which case SBX setting doesn't matter at all.


 
  
 This still doesn't work for me, no matter what I do. Works with Gears of War, Bioshock, Mirror's Edge etc...very fine, just not here. SBX doesn't tick off.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

I couldn't get BioShock working after tinkering for 4 hours with openal settings. EAX was lit up so I assumed it was using openal but it just didn't sound good enough. I dunno.

Borderlands 2 needed the sound blaster z name as the device specifically.


----------



## Evshrug

*RPG*,
On the Omni, there are three output settings (and, I assume, different processing options tied to each):
Headphones
Speakers
5.1 Surround

Speakers mode uses a different HTRF than headphone mode; unlike with the X-Fi models, you cannot choose to send headphone surround out through the line-outputs. It seems too easy that your distaste for the ZxR might've come from trying to use it like you used your old soundcard, that you didn't realize that using the line outs also uses a more diffuse HRTF, and I think from what you just posted says that you tried using headphone mode and headphone jack, but since your card hasn't sold in half a year... anything might be worth reconsidering? Maybe talk with Anarion about how he got his working better, cuz your impressions are far away from what I've heard on two lower-end (mid-Fi?) products.


*Anarion and Fegefeuer*,
I confess, I haven't set up borderlands for OpenAL yet. A bit intimidated with editing the code, and I don't want to spend time undoing something if I mess it up. Will get around to it one day though.

*x7007,*
I use DH mode 2 on my Turtle Beach DSS... unfortunately I cannot help with Asus sound card settings as I've never owned one. There are other threads though... and there's probably a Xonar U3 thread, it's a pretty popular product.


*Germanium*,
I'd love to modify my Recon3D USB like you did... but my only experience with soldering was in creating metal sculptures, not electronics, and I don't have a soldering iron. The recon3D USB is pretty much a "spare unit" right now though, do you have any suggestions?


----------



## SaLX

yoyo711 said:


> SBz or headphone amp fiio e9k


 
 SBZ for Games/Movies with surround sound (plus you get a nice control panel with a lot of nice options). Get an external amp if you're just into music.
  


x7007 said:


> Compare to SBX, how to use the Dolby Surround on the Xonar phoebus ?


 
 Best to ask here x7 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





: http://rog.asus.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?136-Xonar-Phoebus-Series-Sound-Cards
  
 @Evshrug .. great writeup.
  
 @Geranium - fantastic what you managed to achieve with your modded ZxR.


----------



## Fegefeuer

djinferno806 said:


> I couldn't get BioShock working after tinkering for 4 hours with openal settings. EAX was lit up so I assumed it was using openal but it just didn't sound good enough. I dunno.
> 
> Borderlands 2 needed the sound blaster z name as the device specifically.


 
  
 Bioshock unfortunately isn't very impressive without a real X-Fi. I play Medieval TW 2a lot because it has the best mods out of all total war games and sometimes I really wish I had a X-Fi again just for this game (it really sounds awesome despite aged samples). Unfortunately CMSS-3D just gets uglier the better your headphone is. With the HD 800 it was unbearable at times.


----------



## SaLX

@Feg.. long time lover of the Total War games and yup Medieval was brilliant (have bought Rome II but I'm scared to play it in case it's as crap..... will try the DEI mod first though).
  
 I've never heard anybody expressing their experience with CMSS-3D as scaling poorly with top of the line headphones (which you have - lucky b*stard).


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

evshrug said:


> *RPG*,
> On the Omni, there are three output settings (and, I assume, different processing options tied to each):
> Headphones
> Speakers
> ...


 

 What do you mean with the bolded part? What I'm wondering is if you can with the Omni select either each of those 3 options, speakers, headphones or 5.1 surround when headphone is plugged to the headphone jack. Also are the windows control panel speaker settings and the Creative control panel software (driver) side speaker mode settings linked or unlinked (separate) options? For me I'd actually hope it was just sharing Windows control panel config to avoid the Creative side speaker config, to my ears it just doesn't seem to work well, I'd rather have the standard way of doing it like for example Realtek onboard does where there's no such extra processing and simply uses the Windows control panel speaker config.

 Believe me I've tried every possible config with the ZxR and hoped it would be something I've missed, I've 3-4 times took it out of the box and did some tests only to come to the same conclusions as last time, no matter how I config it I can't get satisfied with the soundstaging, it's too closed in and too diffuze imaging. I'm willing to give maybe Omni a try in hope for that it has a better configured "HRTF"/speaker mode processing for me.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

rpgwizard said:


> What do you mean with the bolded part? And what I'm wondering is if you can with the Omni select either each of those 3 options, speakers, headphones or 5.1 surround when headphone is plugged to the headphone jack.
> 
> 
> Believe me I've tried every possible config with the ZxR and hoped it would be something I've missed, I've 3-4 times took it out of the box and did some tests only to come to the same conclusions as last time, no matter how I config it I can't get satisfied with the soundstaging, it's too closed in and too diffuze imaging. I'm willing to give maybe Omni a try in hope for that it has a better configured "HRTF"/speaker mode processing.




The bolded part answers your question that you just asked.

The z series and omni do not allow headphone hrtf to be sent through the linE outs. The device automatically choses which surround algorithm to use based on what ports you chose.

Switching to stereo/5.1 enables line out and switching to headphones enables headphone out. 

I think your distaste with the imaging may be attributed with the headamp IC itself? As you said the line outs sound good to you no? The only difference in stereo and headphones selected is the port it comes out of and the type of surround. So the hardware must account for the sound difference.

I'd you really want to test that theory out, run some music in asio for both line outs and headphone out. The asio will use its own driver and bypass the z driver and in turn its DSP effects or any "software imaging" you may be hearing.


----------



## ihaveworms

djinferno806 said:


> The bolded part answers your question that you just asked.
> 
> The z series and omni do not allow headphone hrtf to be sent through the linE outs. The device automatically choses which surround algorithm to use based on what ports you chose.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I have question in regards to this. I have a sound blaster Z and am having a set of DT 990 250ohm premiums delivered today. I have seen some say an amp isn't necessary and the built in one will be just fine while others say an amp really helps. My concern is losing the headphone HRTF when I use a amp via lineout. Is it worth losing the HRTF for an amp? I using my computer for gaming, listening to music, and the occasional movie.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Whether losing the hrtf is worth it depends how much gaming you do. And how much you need virtual surround to game. 

Personally I need surround so I use optical out of the z to an amp/DAC combo. My z alone did not power my DT 770 properly. Switching to the zxr right away alleviated that. I also did some quick estimated math on the power output of the z and If remember it was like 20-30ish mW into 250 ohms. But that's in my case as I listen to my cans loud.

Also most users have reported double amping with the headphone out to sound good still. So there's that.


----------



## Sorrows End

I just picked up a set of hd650's and am currently using a ZXR for a soundcard.
  
 Any recommendations of better oamps to use with the current card or should I invest in a good external headphone amp?
  
 The headphones sound much better than my hd595's though the ZXR but they seem to capable of so much more.


----------



## ihaveworms

djinferno806 said:


> Also most users have reported double amping with the headphone out to sound good still. So there's that.


 
 Ah I thought that would have caused a problem like propagating noise or something. 
  
 I will play with the HRTF and see if I can live with/without it. Would a FiiO E09K be a good choice for DT990 250ohm?


----------



## DJINFERNO806

ihaveworms said:


> Ah I thought that would have caused a problem like propagating noise or something.




Apparently as long as the amp has a low noise floor, that shouldn't be an issue.


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

djinferno806 said:


> Apparently as long as the amp has a low noise floor, that shouldn't be an issue.


 

 I can confirm this, even with ZO2.1 that was discontinued quickly due to high noise floor (unability to use with many IEMs as a result), it's pretty much dead silent with ZxR until you go to dangeously high volume levels (to the point I wouldn't dare klick play anymore).


----------



## SaLX

djinferno806 said:


> Apparently as long as the amp has a low noise floor, that shouldn't be an issue.


 
 Yeah Ihaveworms (eek!) the goto amps like the O2 or Magni do the trick.


----------



## ihaveworms

rpgwizard said:


> I can confirm this, even with ZO2.1 that was discontinued quickly due to high noise floor (unability to use with many IEMs as a result), it's pretty much dead silent with ZxR.


 
 Excuse my ignorance, but are you saying the SB-Z has a low noise floor and therefore should be ok to be double amped? 
  


salx said:


> Yeah Ihaveworms (eek!) the goto amps like the O2 or Magni do the trick.


 
  
 Ah ok thanks! Given the o2, Magni, or FiiO E09K, what would be the best choice?


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

ihaveworms said:


> Excuse my ignorance, but are you saying the SB-Z has a low noise floor and therefore should be ok to be double amped?


 

 Oh, not sure about the Z, the ZxR has very low noise floor though.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Ya the z has a really low noise floor from my experience. Trust me I crank my games and music up loud.

I'd go with the magni ihavewormss(seriously every time I read your name I laugh to myself). Its got the lowest output impedance, most power and great price.

I'd take the sound of the magni over the e09k any day. However I've never heard the O2 but apparently its pretty transparent.


----------



## ihaveworms

Alright thanks guys, I ordered the magni


----------



## Anarion

fegefeuer said:


> This still doesn't work for me, no matter what I do. Works with Gears of War, Bioshock, Mirror's Edge etc...very fine, just not here. SBX doesn't tick off.


Select stereo speakers from Creative CP, then select 5.1 speakers from Windows CP and tick SBX. If you want to use SBX speaker HRTF that is. If SBX stays on in OpenAL games like Mirror's Edge, it means that you are using Generic Software (which 99% sure is the case unless you have manually edited the config file).


----------



## yoyo711

salx said:


> SBZ for Games/Movies with surround sound (plus you get a nice control panel with a lot of nice options). Get an external amp if you're just into music.


 
  
 Thanks for the reply
  
 I just order Neweggs on SBZ it was on sale $57.99 free shipping
 I'll try SBZ on my HD650 300ohm and computer speaker on Movies, music and games.
  
 Thanks again


----------



## germanium

Evshrug said:
			
		

> *Germanium*,
> I'd love to modify my Recon3D USB like you did... but my only experience with soldering was in creating metal sculptures, not electronics, and I don't have a soldering iron. The recon3D USB is pretty much a "spare unit" right now though, do you have any suggestions?


 
  
 Not much you can do with that as it is very small& some of my mods take a fair amount of room, a full expansion slot above the ZXR card is used for the metalized film capacitors as they are definitely not small by any stretch of the imagination. I suspect you usb soundcard is bus powered & has only one power supply rail for the analog out & as such can not even be direct coupled as you need 2 power supply rails going to the opamps in order to direct couple. Otherwise you would have at least 1volt if not 2.5 volts at the output. This voltage would cause problems for any amp that does not have an input capacitor.


----------



## SaLX

@Germanium.. post up a guide please with photos. Your mods sound extraordinary, and I'm sure we'd all love to see how you achieved it. Many thanks.


----------



## germanium

salx said:


> @Geranium.. post up a guide please with photos. Your mods sound extraordinary, and I'm sure we'd all love to see how you achieved it. Many thanks.


 
 this next week end I'll try to do this


----------



## Evshrug

germanium said:


> Not much you can do with that as it is very small& some of my mods take a fair amount of room, a full expansion slot above the ZXR card is used for the metalized film capacitors as they are definitely not small by any stretch of the imagination. I suspect you usb soundcard is bus powered & has only one power supply rail for the analog out & as such can not even be direct coupled as you need 2 power supply rails going to the opamps in order to direct couple. Otherwise you would have at least 1volt if not 2.5 volts at the output. This voltage would cause problems for any amp that does not have an input capacitor.



I've seen some mods done to the Indeed and Bravo amps that add similar components. I would not mind using my Recon3D USB "unshelled" if it sounded capable... honestly I think this one performs lower than my first one.

Pretty sure some USB ports can use 2.5 volts... like an iPad charger, and my Gigabyte motherboard is advertised as having more juice on hand.

It may not be possible... but I'm confident it could at least be made better.


----------



## germanium

evshrug said:


> I've seen some mods done to the Indeed and Bravo amps that add similar components. I would not mind using my Recon3D USB "unshelled" if it sounded capable... honestly I think this one performs lower than my first one.
> 
> Pretty sure some USB ports can use 2.5 volts... like an iPad charger, and my Gigabyte motherboard is advertised as having more juice on hand.
> 
> It may not be possible... but I'm confident it could at least be made better.


 

 The 2.5 volts D.C. I'm talking of would likely damage any direct coupled amp not to mention any headphone connected to the output. I do not have your unit to be able to look over the circuit & right now can't afford to go buy one just to do that.


----------



## Fegefeuer

anarion said:


> Select stereo speakers from Creative CP, then select 5.1 speakers from Windows CP and tick SBX. If you want to use SBX speaker HRTF that is. If SBX stays on in OpenAL games like Mirror's Edge, it means that you are using Generic Software (which 99% sure is the case unless you have manually edited the config file).


 
  
 No, everything's perfect with setting up the Creative card's ID under device, ALAUDIO etc...just not in Borderlands 2.


----------



## Evshrug

germanium said:


> The 2.5 volts D.C. I'm talking of would likely damage any direct coupled amp not to mention any headphone connected to the output. I do not have your unit to be able to look over the circuit & right now can't afford to go buy one just to do that.




You might be right 
Still, as I said it's kind of a redundant/spare device right now, I wouldn't mind mailing it to you if you were curious about enhancing a device that can do virtual surround for PCs AND consoles...


----------



## maxpoz

hello
 i've a new suondblaster zx and syberia v2
  
 I should be set it for call of duty.
 which is the optimal setting?
  
 tnx


----------



## Anarion

There is no optimal solution that works for everyone. You have to do it yourself. Basically if you use the headphone out, I'd start with disabling every SBX Pro Studio feature and then enable Surround and adjust the slider until you are happy with the surround sound (though 67% is usually quite good compromise and also default setting). Crystalizer and other things are really personal, you have to test those out yourself. Crystalizer is essentially v-shaped equaliser.



fegefeuer said:


> No, everything's perfect with setting up the Creative card's ID under device, ALAUDIO etc...just not in Borderlands 2.



You have made this change under
[WinDrv.WindowsClient]
AudioDeviceClass=*ALAudio.ALAudioDevice*
?

For those that do not know, you need to change this too:
[ALAudio.ALAudioDevice]
MaxChannels=128
CommonAudioPoolSize=0
MinCompressedDurationGame=5
MinCompressedDurationEditor=4
LowPassFilterResonance=0.9
UseEffectsProcessing=True
DeviceName=*Sennheiser HD 595 (Sound Blaster Z)*

If you don't have the ALCapsViewer it's still easy to figure out the correct device name.





Sennheiser HD 595 (Sound Blaster Z)

However, this only applies to Z series cards. Non-Host base X-Fi cards have rather meaningless device name.


----------



## Radical_53

Set Windows to 5.1, leave the card at its default of 67% for surround. All the other SBX effects are more or less a matter of taste, normally I keep them disabled.


----------



## maxpoz

how do I set 5.1 in win7? sorry for nabbs


----------



## NCSUZoSo

I'm also interested in seeing germanium's guide.


----------



## NamelessPFG

1Sale - Sound Blaster Z, $54.99 shipped
  
 Why didn't anyone mention this earlier? It's going to expire in a little over three hours, or to be more precise, 12:00am EST.
  
 I have to resist the urge...still quite a bit of money to spend just to review something and probably resell it later...


----------



## ihaveworms

How many of you guys use the surround effect in the sound blaster control panel? I have tried it out a few times and I just found that makes the audio sound weird to me.


----------



## chicolom

ihaveworms said:


> How many of you guys use the surround effect in the sound blaster control panel? I have tried it out a few times and I just found that makes the audio sound weird to me.


 
  
 SBX Pro is sort of the whole reason for buying it.  It won't sound good for stereo, only 5.1 sources like games where it provides virtual surround via HRTF processing.


----------



## Evshrug

ihaveworms said:


> How many of you guys use the surround effect in the sound blaster control panel? I have tried it out a few times and I just found that makes the audio sound weird to me.







chicolom said:


> SBX Pro is sort of the whole reason for buying it.  It won't sound good for stereo, only 5.1 sources like games where it provides virtual surround via HRTF processing.




To clarify... no, I don't use the surround feature while listening to music (because I don't like extra processing on stereo audio), but I DO use surround while gaming.


----------



## maxpoz

yesterday i've attached my syberia v2 headset to the ACM
 but in chat my voice is very low and my friend told me the sound became low and high when my voice start to keep.
  
 sorry for my english


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Play with the mic and crystal voice settings. Maybe smart volume is on?


----------



## NCSUZoSo

ihaveworms said:


> How many of you guys use the surround effect in the sound blaster control panel? I have tried it out a few times and I just found that makes the audio sound weird to me.


 
  
 I use a 5.1 Setup (see my Sig) and I've noticed the SBX Surround basically brings the sound to the center channel and you really need to dial it back from the default position in order to get a good surround effect.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Why are you using sbx with 5.1 speakers? You should already have a perfectly imaged surround effect.

The only thing you might want sbx for would be to upmix your stereo sources to surround or surround stereo. If that's your thing.

Speakers and sbx get really borked if you install speaker setup tool. You need to install drivers without it as it tends to screw up crosstalk and volumes.


----------



## NCSUZoSo

With a 2.0 Source..


----------



## illuminatus

Hi I have now astro mixamp 2011 for surround sound and thinking to change to new soundcard. There are Z ,ZX ,ZXR and xonar essence stx in my mind .Wich one is the best for battlefield 4 and if I change card , it will make  big difference ? My favorite is zxr but is it good idea pay more or lower z model will be ok too ?


----------



## yoyo711

Just instill SBZ.
 WoW Nice sound speaker and Headphone.
 Guys Please let me best setting on Headphone and speaker 2.1 setup
  
 Thanks


----------



## BetaWolf

I'm curious, does anyone here use Crystalizer? The icon it has seems to imply giving your cans a more u-shaped curve, but does it cause any negative effects?


----------



## m00s3

I was having the issue with the channels randomly swapping.
  
 I tried creating a fresh Windows 8.1 x64 install - same thing happened.
  
 I tried using the 16 drivers as opposed to the 22. And this helped some, the issue occurred less frequently -- but I noticed that there was something funny going on with the SBX surround. Sounded muddy, sounded like I was getting surround effects even when SBX was off.
  
 I had seen that some users had their issue resolved by placing their card in a pcie 1x slot.
  
 On my motherboard (Gigabyte P67a-ud7-b3) the lone PCIe 1x slot had a gigantic heat sink behind it covering the NF200, not allowing any card longer than the pcie 1x slot.
  
 So I broke the heatpipes on each side and removed the top part of that heat sink so just the base is on.
  
 That NF200 is getting pretty hot... but it's totally screw*n worth it now. This ZXR is the t*ts! My gawd... I can't believe I was just going to be satisfied with the channels coming out of the right driver. This card has blown me away.
  
 And I was able to go back to my old image so I didn't have to go through and reload all the programs.
  
 I ordered a higher end low profile heat sink. Hopefully it gets here before my board melts


----------



## NoOneLt

Hi, just got ZxR an trying to play with set-up. One thing i noticed that 192KHz is only working in Stereo Direct mode and i usually use headphones, why would they limit it to one mode only? Or is there technical things about it? Also why ASIO support only up-to 96KHz, not 192 like even cheaper ASUS do? It is strange that hardware seems to be able to support this modes, as ASUS do use similar chips but they cutting things down?


----------



## germanium

noonelt said:


> Hi, just got ZxR an trying to play with set-up. One thing i noticed that 192KHz is only working in Stereo Direct mode and i usually use headphones, why would they limit it to one mode only? Or is there technical things about it? Also why ASIO support only up-to 96KHz, not 192 like even cheaper ASUS do? It is strange that hardware seems to be able to support this modes, as ASUS do use similar chips but they cutting things down?





192 KHz is only supported in stereo in commercial releases as well so it is no great loss. While the ADC does support 192 kHz recording Creative's chips et or driver does not. There is no useful information up there anyway. Virtually all digital audio chips et perform better at 96KHz than 192KHz as well. The only thing you will likely see above the 96KHz sample rate cut off is aliasing products. That is all I have seen come from the essence STX card that I had.


----------



## SoFGR

illuminatus said:


> Hi I have now astro mixamp 2011 for surround sound and thinking to change to new soundcard. There are Z ,ZX ,ZXR and xonar essence stx in my mind .Wich one is the best for battlefield 4 and if I change card , it will make  big difference ? My favorite is zxr but is it good idea pay more or lower z model will be ok too ?


 
 get the Z,Zx / ZxR are overpriced, sbx surround is superior to dolby headphone, i own a  2011 mixamp as well, check out my profile pics


----------



## DJINFERNO806

I wouldn't even spend the money on the zx either. Waste the ACM is in my opinion. I would rather control volume digitally through windows by keyboard shortcuts or hot keys. And the mic in the z is more flexible in its position .


On another note I finally got around to taking off the god awful leds on my z that were ruining my case UV glow. I just wiggled them enough and they popped right off easily enough.


----------



## illuminatus

On uk amazon SB Z  OEM is for 48.50 , boxed SB Z is 69.99 , SB ZX 89.99 and ZXR 168 pounds. IF I buy now oem sb z I will have same surround sound like zxr? I read nearly  all reviews and tests for z and zxr .Everywere zxr has top awards and great surround sound but in Z reviews they write that is good but not great. Is this surround sound is same everywere then?
 I use beyerdynamic dt990 pro 250ohm and only them will be connected to this card.
 One more thing about oem card - on the amazon picture they show card with golden capacitors and on z reviews they have black cheaper ones.Is this mean sbz oem is a zx model without cover ,box and acm?


----------



## NoOneLt

ZxR is a different story, it has better DAC, components and headphone amp. than Z. But other than this it is the same, so for gaming result will be more or less the same. Go ZxR if You care for top quality for music as example.


----------



## SaLX

I got my SBZ (non oem with gold caps) new for £48 pounds (from Amazon). Use this and keep your fingers crossed: http://uk.camelcamelcamel.com/search?sq=sound+blaster+z. Don't worry about the gold caps. It's a great card on it's own and I don't think you'll be disappointed.
  
 As NoOneLt says .. the ZxR will sound better for music, but be about the same for games in surround.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Funny thing when I took my z shield off, only one of the caps were nichicon gold, the others were g luxon. Not that I care as I highly doubt you would hear a difference. And g luxon aren't going to blow up on you randomly.

Just thought it was weird.


----------



## SaLX

@DJ .... that's still a _highly sneaky_ thing to do on Creative's part, given that the vast majority of users will never remove the shield


----------



## SoFGR

buy sb Z  OEM, spend the rest on a headphone amp, something with an optical input like DAC+AMP box would be really nice !


----------



## NCSUZoSo

Is user germanium still working on the capacitor mod guide for the ZXR?


----------



## illuminatus

Can I use sb z with astro mixamp or I must buy  different amp ?


----------



## chicolom

illuminatus said:


> Can I use sb z with astro mixamp or I must buy  different amp ?


 
  
 Why would you want to use it with the Astro mixamp?  The amp in the mixamp isn't all that great...


----------



## germanium

ncsuzoso said:


> Is user germanium still working on the capacitor mod guide for the ZXR?


 
 I got delayed as my work sent me on a long trip  where I got stuck in a snow storm & couldn't make it back home in the allotted time so I had to do 10 hours of sleeper berth in the truck. DOT laws for commercial trucks make you have to rest for 10 hours after 14 hours on duty. I could have completed the trip in the time allotted if there wasn't a snow storm. will work on it later tonight & tomorrow.


----------



## illuminatus

chicolom said:


> Why would you want to use it with the Astro mixamp?  The amp in the mixamp isn't all that great...


 

 I have astro mixamp and I was thinking to connect optical from SBZ to astro and then to  headphones.There will be then volume control .Meaybe I am wrong but thats why I come here  Why I need amp  if there is one on card?


----------



## chicolom

illuminatus said:


> I have astro mixamp and I was thinking to connect optical from SBZ to astro and then to  headphones.There will be then volume control .Meaybe I am wrong but thats why I come here  Why I need amp  if there is one on card?


 
  
 The astro mixamp's amp and DAC probably aren't better than the ones on the SB Z (they may even be worse).  Personally I wouldn't hook them up to the SB Z. 
  
 The reason you may need an amp is if you have hard to drive headhpones or you want a better quality amp than the one that came on the SB Z.  In that case, I would just get a decent desktop amp.  If you want to bypass the Z's DAC you will need an external optical DAC.


----------



## germanium

The caps in the red box get shorted or removed & wire put in their place. I only shorted them underneath the board as this electrically removes them as electricity takes the path of least resistance
  
 The caps in the green box get bypassed with 2-12uf metalized film caps each These caps are quite large physically you will need at least 1 expansion space above the card free.
  
 The caps in the purple box get 1-12uf metalized film cap each. Same thing applies to these caps needing space. 
  
 The caps in the blue box only need shorting if you plan on using surround sound speakers & amps


----------



## Evshrug

Even a cheap FiiO amp is better than the amp inside the Mixamp, and the SBZ has a better DAC than the Mixamp. This is just going off of specifications. The effect would just be to muddy and weaken the signal coming out of the Soundblaster.


----------



## chicolom

germanium said:


>


 
  
  
 Oh my.


----------



## germanium

chicolom said:


> Oh my.


 

 I know not the best looking. But believe me extremely effective. I had a hard time getting solder to stick to this board & all the capacitors are used capacitors. I was trying to do something rather quickly & I it shows. will redo sometime later when I can buy all new caps & do a better job soldering them but in the mean time this does work quite well.


----------



## NoOneLt

@germanium Hey, can You explain in few words what it gives to ZxR? Thanks!


----------



## germanium

noonelt said:


> @germanium Hey, can You explain in few words what it gives to ZxR? Thanks!


 
  
  
 Sound is perfect, Huge soundstage, articulate midrange that still is warm & musical & more harmonically complete, imaging that goes well beyond the edges of the speakers on a regular basis. Smoother & yet more detailed treble. sibilants that don't feel like you ears are getting laser drilled & yet contain more detail that make the sibilants sound natural. Bass though still strong does not take center stage anymore in terms of dominating the sound, the clean & very articulate midrange does which is how it is supposed to be. Sounds nothing like the stock ZXR card at all, yet all the main active hardware is stock, only capacitor modifications. Speakers disappear into the sound field which is what stereo is supposed to do when done properly


----------



## NCSUZoSo

germanium, thanks for the guide!
  
 I want to ask you a few questions though;
  
 1) Are you using the sound card primarily with headphones (does this even benefit running 5.1 speaker setup (see my sig))
 2) How much of a difference does this mod make?
 3) Are you running stock opamps?
 4) Did you come up with this by yourself?


----------



## germanium

ncsuzoso said:


> germanium, thanks for the guide!
> 
> I want to ask you a few questions though;
> 
> ...


 
  
 1.I do use headphones but not as my main listening device. For that I use my modified M-Audio BX5's which are modified & modified Tannoy TS10 subwoofer in a similar fashion & are extremely high resolution. Can be beneficial for 5.1 surround sound as well if you short the caps in the blue box. Should be no need to add more bypasses as I found through experimentation that it really doesn't seem to matter where they are placed so much in the power supply circuit as much as just being present at all. previous experiments on other equipment suggest they can be placed even before regulated power supplies & still do the trick. The placement on this card is more for convenience than for sound but in this case it works oh so well.
  
 2.It is a huge difference. Only positive that to me the stock card had was it's strong bass that went very deep. Low level midrange sounds were clouded before & this affected the soundstage in a negative way making it sound claustrophobic stock. Once modified the soundstage is huge with lots of depth, low level background sounds are now very clear, not clouded like before modification. High frequencies are also much clearer & sweeter, stock the cymbals & sibilance was harsh but not very revealing at the same time, now the harshness is gone & there is actually more detail & it sounds very sweet. The strong incredibly deep bass remains but no longer is the strongest point of this card, the incredible sounding midrange & sweet detailed top end is the crowning jewel of this card.
  
 3. Yes stock opamps.
  
 4. Idea of using bypasses not my original idea but using very large bypasses is my original idea & came about through experimentation, I found it very helpful in obtaining a consistent &  highly detailed sound signature. While I can't say that shorting the coupling caps is my original idea I did come about this independently & was doing this long before coming on headfi.


----------



## NoOneLt

@germanium Hey, is seems You are using speakers, not headphones, and will this make difference in headphone mode?
  
 Edit: oh, i get it.. You modify both speaker both headphone AMP. So if one use only headphones it is enough to put 4-12uf caps on green marked ones? Do You hear same improvements in both modes?


----------



## germanium

noonelt said:


> @germanium Hey, is seems You are using speakers, not headphones, and will this make difference in headphone mode?
> 
> Edit: oh, i get it.. You modify both speaker both headphone AMP. So if one use only headphones it is enough to put 4-12uf caps on green marked ones? Do You hear same improvements in both modes?


 

 The power supply caps near the headphone amp is common to all the opamps as well so no other bypasses are needed in this area but you still need the bypasses on the power supply for the DAC which is the caps in the purple box.
  
 Same benefits on headphones. I do use headphones just not as my main listening device.


----------



## atoff

I wonder if the SBZ would benefit from such a mod.


----------



## germanium

atoff said:


> I wonder if the SBZ would benefit from such a mod.


 
 Yes, this has worked on every card I have tried


----------



## NCSUZoSo

So if I only use my ZXR for Surround Sound what would my inventory sheet look like for the mylars?


----------



## germanium

ncsuzoso said:


> So if I only use my ZXR for Surround Sound what would my inventory sheet look like for the mylars?


 

 Same as above except shorting the coupling caps need to be done at the surround sound section. Blue box in photo.


----------



## NCSUZoSo

I plan on desoldering the cap rather than shorting them, so I need to remove all of the caps in all of the colored boxes?  Even if I don't give a damn about headphone section?  (I have an Aune T1 for my SoundMAGIC HP100s)


----------



## SoFGR

ALchemy noob question 
  
 say, i want to play an old directsound3d game like farcry1, should i choose  "stereo" "headphones"  "surround" or "dolby 5.1"  ?


----------



## germanium

ncsuzoso said:


> I plan on desoldering the cap rather than shorting them, so I need to remove all of the caps in all of the colored boxes?  Even if I don't give a damn about headphone section?  (I have an Aune T1 for my SoundMAGIC HP100s)


 
 Short or remove & put wire only the ones in the red box for stereo & all in the red & blue box for analog surround out if also using surround speakers. All others are power supply & if you short those you will blow your card & possibly damage your motherboard as power comes from you motherboard on this card. Removing caps brings the danger of damaging the traces on the multilayer circuit board which is why I only short them as this takes them electrically out of the circuit & there is no difference in sound. I have done those experiments in the past already & no difference.


----------



## NCSUZoSo

I understand shorting and desoldering are equal, but I am a pretty skilled in soldering (10+ years) and an Electrical Engineering student (Jr.) and I thought I might be able to fit 2 of the smaller mylars in the card casing with the caps gone.


----------



## atoff

ncsuzoso said:


> I understand shorting and desoldering are equal, but I am a pretty skilled in soldering (10+ years) and an Electrical Engineering student (Jr.) and I thought I might be able to fit 2 of the smaller mylars in the card casing with the caps gone.


 
  
 How is shorting and desoldering equal?  Desoldering is removal of solder... no short / bridge.  Shorting would mean bridging the 2 points, i.e. shorting them out.


----------



## germanium

ncsuzoso said:


> I understand shorting and desoldering are equal, but I am a pretty skilled in soldering (10+ years) and an Electrical Engineering student (Jr.) and I thought I might be able to fit 2 of the smaller mylars in the card casing with the caps gone.


 

  Any mylar cap small enough to fit under the EMI shield will likely result in an inconsistent sound signature that is very open & sweet at the top end but leave the midrange still lacking and sounding claustrophobic. That is why I use such huge bypasses, to get a consistent sound signature. That is what my experiments have shown in the past.


----------



## germanium

atoff said:


> How is shorting and desoldering equal?  Desoldering is removal of solder... no short / bridge.  Shorting would mean bridging the 2 points, i.e. shorting them out.


 

 Sonically they are in fact equal as I have done it both ways found no difference. your way does in fact look better but looking better & sounding better are 2 different things.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

sofgr said:


> ALchemy noob question
> 
> say, i want to play an old directsound3d game like farcry1, should i choose  "stereo" "headphones"  "surround" or "dolby 5.1"  ?




Well forget dolby. Never understood the need for that in a game engine on PC with analogue out.

I would say surround since headphone would most likely be a stereo mix with a bit of tweaking to direction and dynamic range like all other game headphones modes.

Be sure to use these settings,
http://web.archive.org/web/20130602090134/http://connect.creativelabs.com/alchemy/Lists/Games/AllItems.aspx

Also check this page for anything that might be relevant to sound tweaking.
http://www.tweakguides.com/Farcry_6.html


----------



## NCSUZoSo

atoff said:


> How is shorting and desoldering equal?  Desoldering is removal of solder... no short / bridge.  Shorting would mean bridging the 2 points, i.e. shorting them out.


 
  
 Obviously you didn't read germanium's reply to me...  I was simply agreeing with him that there was no sonic difference in the two options.  That is what I meant when I said equal, meaning equal sonic outcome.


----------



## atoff

ncsuzoso said:


> Obviously you didn't read germanium's reply to me...  I was simply agreeing with him that there was no sonic difference in the two options.  That is what I meant when I said equal, meaning equal sonic outcome.


 
  
 Ah, gotcha... I was confused. 
  
 I'll have to try this with the SBZ, 12uF caps are a bit difficult to find for a decent price.  I doubt I have anything I could salvage them from.


----------



## NCSUZoSo

For people looking for Mylar caps, this is really the only place I've found carrying them at a decent price: http://www.erseaudio.com/Products/PEx250v/12uF-250-volt-Metallized-Polyester-Mylar-Film-Capacitor
  
 They do have an upgraded version too:http://www.erseaudio.com/Products/PulseX630v/MPX63-03-12-0
  
 They are shorter and fatter than the standards in the first link.  (Dimensions are shown in the ad)
  
 Their 250V's are sold out (http://www.erseaudio.com/Products/PulseX250v/MPX25-03-12-00)  If you wanted to get the upgraded ones, I would wait until they come back in stock, those 630V are huge.
  
  
  
 germanium, what voltage did you go with?  Hell the upgraded cap is rated at 630V and I know we are nothing even close to that, lol.
  
  
 Just to verify, we need 6 of these right germanium?


----------



## atoff

ncsuzoso said:


> For people looking for Mylar caps, this is really the only place I've found carrying them at a decent price: http://www.erseaudio.com/Products/PEx250v/12uF-250-volt-Metallized-Polyester-Mylar-Film-Capacitor
> 
> They do have an upgraded version too:http://www.erseaudio.com/Products/PulseX630v/MPX63-03-12-0
> 
> ...


 
  
 Nice price!  Thanks for the link.  $2.50 shipping for me makes it even better.   Looks like he's using 100V caps.


----------



## NCSUZoSo

Shipping for me came out to $12!!! How did you get it for $2.50??  Where are you located?


----------



## atoff

ncsuzoso said:


> Shipping for me came out to $12!!! How did you get it for $2.50??  Where are you located?


 
  
 Actually, it came to $2.30. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  I'm in California... it was $12 before I clicked on Estimated Shipping, and entered my zip.


----------



## germanium

ncsuzoso said:


> For people looking for Mylar caps, this is really the only place I've found carrying them at a decent price: http://www.erseaudio.com/Products/PEx250v/12uF-250-volt-Metallized-Polyester-Mylar-Film-Capacitor
> 
> They do have an upgraded version too:http://www.erseaudio.com/Products/PulseX630v/MPX63-03-12-0
> 
> ...


 
  


atoff said:


> Nice price!  Thanks for the link.  $2.50 shipping for me makes it even better.   Looks like he's using 100V caps.


 
  Yes 6 is correct. Yes I'm using 100volt caps Voltage doesn't matter except how it affects size higher voltage requires thicker insulation & lowers the capacitance per square inch so more turns are needed with higher voltage caps resulting in huge capacitors.


----------



## NoOneLt

@germanium Would't You like to open a new thread like "ZxR modding" or something  I think it would be popular and useful 
  
 I would like to ask few more noob questions.
  
 1. Can i use "An axial capacitor with metallised polypropylene dielectric", 10 µF, and voltage 110 VAC. as i can not find "Metallized Polyester" in my country.
 2. Also i can not find 12µF would 10 make a huge difference?
 3. About shortening caps on board seems to be clear, it is enough to shorten them with wire between caps. legs
 4. And by bypassing on-board caps, You mean connect new caps legs to same points of old cap? And old cap stays in place?


----------



## germanium

noonelt said:


> @germanium Would't You like to open a new thread like "ZxR modding" or something  I think it would be popular and useful
> 
> I would like to ask few more noob questions.
> 
> ...


 

 1.Yes, 10uf polypropylene ok. Polypropylenes caps are considered to be even better quality than mylar caps.
  
 2. Would not be huge maybe not even audible.
  
 3. Correct
  
 4. Correct. As you can see in my photo all stock caps are in place


----------



## NCSUZoSo

germanium I plan to do a detailed guide once I do the mod, but if you open a new thread be sure to add the link in here.
  
  
 these are some nice 12uF poly caps, but you are talking about $60 roughly total for the mod in caps: http://www.ebay.com/itm/MKP-Hifi-Crossover-Capacitor-12uf-250V-Polypropylene-top-quality-/330633133246?pt=UK_Sound_Vision_Speaker_Parts&hash=item4cfb453cbe


----------



## NoOneLt

ncsuzoso said:


> these are some nice 12uF poly caps, but you are talking about $60 roughly total for the mod in caps: http://www.ebay.com/itm/MKP-Hifi-Crossover-Capacitor-12uf-250V-Polypropylene-top-quality-/330633133246?pt=UK_Sound_Vision_Speaker_Parts&hash=item4cfb453cbe


 
 Same here in my country, about 6,2 USD per unit, here is the datasheet.


----------



## NCSUZoSo

yea, but why pay that when you can get the moly caps I linked to for $2.97 each?


----------



## NoOneLt

Can't find any of them nearby and + shipping + customs + other will cost same..


----------



## NoOneLt

My firs impressions about ZxR itself: so far i'am happy, though some time need to pass to check it in different modes and situations, listen to more music. What i found first is that You can turn up volume and it don't hurt ears as it was before (X-Fi Titanium). Headphones feels bit more alive.
  
 What i liked: SBX surround in games, real step over CMSS-3D i used with my X-Fi Titanium.
  
 What i disliked: ACM microphone, it still catches all the noises, if TV is on my friend hears it better then ever.. Beam forming and stuff not working at all. So still waiting for Modmic 4.0, seems there is no better solution. Can't tell for sure if ACM degrades sound, made few quick tests and din't noticed difference, maybe will do some more tests.
  
 Can't talk about sound quality, i like it, but i haven't  heard lot of stuff to compare, and i'am not a huge specialists


----------



## AUserName501

I made some comparison audio of SBX Pro Studio to CMSS-3D 5.1 and Dolby Headphone 5.1 DH1, 2 and 3.
  
The FLAC links are here. The difference between all of them is quite large.


----------



## NoOneLt

ausername501 said:


> The FLAC links are here. The difference between all of them is quite large.


 
 Nice job keep it up! Will check this at home, have few questions, write it here, as don't want to register there  Maybe You should make new thread here?
  
 1. Your opinion, witch sound the best/accurate? I only heard SBX and CMSS-3D and SBX seems to be more fun.
 2. I noticed all recordings has "Full Range Speakers Off" i don't know why but i always tick it (windows speakers configuration is 5.1) i use headphones. Should i try to turn it OFF?
 3. SBX Surround - i came to setting it to something like 45% as with default 67% it seems to make a mess, i mean it feels like it is too much of surround effect 
 4. Bass - i also keep it Off, in headphone it seems to ruin sound.


----------



## Anarion

noonelt said:


> My firs impressions about ZxR itself: so far i'am happy, though some time need to pass to check it in different modes and situations, listen to more music. What i found first is that You can turn up volume and it don't hurt ears as it was before (X-Fi Titanium). Headphones feels bit more alive.
> 
> What i liked: SBX surround in games, real step over CMSS-3D i used with my X-Fi Titanium.
> 
> ...



Yep. The mic in ACM sucks big time. It seems to pick computer fan noises and amplify them to ^10. Yet, when I talk I have to shout or the other person doesn't hear me. It's also muddy sounding. Somehow I think that the mic that comes with Z is better (because this is feking bääääd).


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

Fullrange should theoretically be ticked in case you use 5.1 speakers and headphones as the listening device to make sure it simply outputs down to 0Hz. But I only think it truly matters if crossover frequency is used, then the bass would be cut at the given crossover frequency if the setting isn't ticked for the headphones/satellite speakers (as the bass below crossover frequency limit would be redirected to the sub channel). So this option exists to determine wheter or not it should cut out that bass for the "satellite" speakers (headphones in this case) as those may not necessarily work so well with very deep bass and it would be better to exclusively let the sub handle down to 0Hz frequencies.


----------



## NoOneLt

Well that was the idea to tick Full range speakers, i wanted windows put give "pure" sound to sound card and then it decides what to do with it. (Still i don't use any bass management in ZxR, it don't sound for me). But i thought maybe there is better reason to un-tick it.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

The reason why creative's driver defaults to limited range speakers in windows was given back in this thread somewhere. Like a year ago or so I think. A creative rep had some reason for it to do with the way virtual surround needs to be processed. 

No sound is getting cut as the info for the low frequencies still reside in that sub channel or the .1 channel. The z just rebuilds that all into stereo for headphones or when your using an hrtf.

@Anarion

Ya the mic on its own picks up a lot of noise seeing as its a stereo mic. But once I enabled noise cancelation, it didn't pick up anything that wasn't in the cone I set.


----------



## DarkWolf

I saw that the basic Z OEM is on sale at newegg for $60 right now. Naturally, I came straight here. My one and only interest for this card would be using SBX Surround in games, with S/PDIF out to the rig in my signature. 
  
 Right now, I have an Auzentech Prelude 7.1 going completely to waste. I never use any analogue out any more and the Auzentech card does not expose any "stereo mix to digital out" option(s). That said, I find CMSS-3D unusable because it destroys the sound quality. I'm not sure I really found the positioning to be any better than using whatever the game defaults to without it. I tried the Razer Surround a while back but did not end up going with it. I can't remember for sure now, but I think I couldn't get it working right. It might have something to do with my card's limited "mix to digital" functionality. I've also tried working around by setting "what you hear" to listen via digital, but it reduces sound quality and clips sometimes. 
  
 I had watched some demonstration videos people made and posted on youtube, showing basic sound, CMSS, SBX and Razer, back to back in various games. CMSS of course sounded bad to me, but SBX seemed to sound pretty good.
  
 Basically, if any other gamers with higher end gear, using digital out, will tell me what they think of SBX, that's what I'm after! I will spend more time searching and seeing what audio comparisons I can find when I get home from work. Also, is it backwards compatible with most or all games, or do specific games have to recognize it? I play a lot of the Mass Effect series, for example.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

darkwolf said:


> I saw that the basic Z OEM is on sale at newegg for $60 right now. Naturally, I came straight here. My one and only interest for this card would be using SBX Surround in games, with S/PDIF out to the rig in my signature.
> 
> Right now, I have an Auzentech Prelude 7.1 going completely to waste. I never use any analogue out any more and the Auzentech card does not expose any "stereo mix to digital out" option(s). That said, I find CMSS-3D unusable because it destroys the sound quality. I'm not sure I really found the positioning to be any better than using whatever the game defaults to without it. I tried the Razer Surround a while back but did not end up going with it. I can't remember for sure now, but I think I couldn't get it working right. It might have something to do with my card's limited "mix to digital" functionality. I've also tried working around by setting "what you hear" to listen via digital, but it reduces sound quality and clips sometimes.
> 
> ...




You came to the right place bud!

Currently Salx, genclaymore and I all use our z's optical out to our headphone amps/DACs. 

Not sure what else I could say except it worked flawlessly when sending stereo mixed PCM with all the effects out.

Never had any issues so far.

SBX surround will work with any game, movie, music that has multichannel audio.


----------



## DarkWolf

Cool! So the question is then; How many of us audiophile gamers _actually_ _like_ SBX Surround?


----------



## SoFGR

/raises hand


----------



## DJINFERNO806

I second that. I prefer it over everything else.


----------



## Fegefeuer

Though I seriously miss the flexibility of a X-Fi, SBX is so much better with high end headphones than CMSS-3D and thus worth the loss of full legacy compatibility. They are both better than Dolby Headphone already so all in all SBX is the best solution right now.


----------



## SaLX

Yup .. me too. Not a fanboy, just want the best that's currently available. New things may well be happening this year though.


----------



## DarkWolf

Just listening to Dreyka's recordings now. The raw 5.1 audio seems both very small, but also, much more quiet a recording? That said the SBX seems quite impressive. Not at all like CMSS-3D's surround sound in a can.


----------



## atoff

It's too bad there's no way to increase "distance" with SBX.  Though the surround and sound quality are OKAY after EQ'ing, it's just drilling a hole in my head.  I'd like the audio to surround me, rather than pound me in the head.  I've experience that surround with distance from having played with software based HRTF, but the sound quality is usually pretty awful.   I think I'd be happy with SBX if I could just position the sound further out, it would sound much more natural.


----------



## BetaWolf

djinferno806 said:


> You came to the right place bud!
> 
> Currently Salx, genclaymore and I all use our z's optical out to our headphone amps/DACs.
> 
> ...


 
 Wait, so it DOES send SBX positional audio out through optical? I am probably good with the SBX provided by my motherboard, then. Good to know.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Ya just make sure your motherboard can send it through digital. There should be an option for stereo downmix somewhere.


----------



## SaLX

I think SBX sound great with open headphones...closed not as good no way. But then, open headphones excel at soundstage. SBX feels natural to me and just right too. Our individual mileage varies always.
  
 Edit: lousy spelling.


----------



## germanium

ncsuzoso said:


> germanium I plan to do a detailed guide once I do the mod, but if you open a new thread be sure to add the link in here.
> 
> 
> these are some nice 12uF poly caps, but you are talking about $60 roughly total for the mod in caps: http://www.ebay.com/itm/MKP-Hifi-Crossover-Capacitor-12uf-250V-Polypropylene-top-quality-/330633133246?pt=UK_Sound_Vision_Speaker_Parts&hash=item4cfb453cbe


 

 Here is my new thread on modding the ZXR
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/705284/germaniums-sound-blaster-zxr-mod-thread


----------



## Radical_53

salx said:


> I think SBX sound great with open headphones...closed not as good no way. But then, open headphones excel at soundstage. SBX feels natural to me and just right too. Our individual mileage vary always.


 
  
 It's no issue really with closed headphones. Thanks to the closed nature and the lack of reverb/extention from the room/surrounding the positioning is very exact and spot-on.
 If a game lacks "background noise" though it will sound weird and, in a way, dead of course. As long as the game has good audio it's a great pleasure though.


----------



## DarkWolf

salx said:


> I think SBX sound great with open headphones...closed not as good no way. But then, open headphones excel at soundstage. SBX feels natural to me and just right too. Our individual mileage vary always.


 
  
 I could see that. Having listened to some recordings and watching several comparisons on youtube, the SBX sound isn't as "distant" as it is with Dolby Headphone. But the Dolby sounds off to me. So does Razer's app. I still think that the basic Realtek sound is the most natural and the positioning isn't bad, it just not a large sound stage. With the naturally wide stage of my current setup, the SBX seems to expand out pretty well. I think I'm going to be brave and give this thing a shot.


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

atoff said:


> It's too bad there's no way to increase "distance" with SBX.  Though the surround and sound quality are OKAY after EQ'ing, it's just drilling a hole in my head.  I'd like the audio to surround me, rather than pound me in the head.  I've experience that surround with distance from having played with software based HRTF, but the sound quality is usually pretty awful.   I think I'd be happy with SBX if I could just position the sound further out, it would sound much more natural.


 

 That's also my prob with SBX, it's too close. On the Realtek motherboard I can slightly increase the "distance" to things, by decreasing "front" volume slider when running 5.1 speakers. It's a shame it doesn't exist with Creative cards to get it slightly less "in-your-face" for much more realistic experience.

 For me in general I prefer the custom 5.1 speaker config on Realtek (all speakers unticked in speaker config but "fullrange speakers" and "Surround Speakers" ticked and the Front volume slider from 100% -> 97%). This generally provides the most realistic distances for me.

 SBX has a natural tone though and doesn't change EQ balance much but I think CMSS3D if using 5.1 or 7.1 speakers still provide the most clear positioning though but changes the sound more than SBX does so it's a bit tie for me.


----------



## DarkWolf

Yes, CMSS-3D might be good for a competitive gamer who just wants to win.. But like I said before, surround sound in a can. They should trade mark the slogan.. Anyway, I placed the order with newegg this morning, maybe I'll have it by the end of the week.


----------



## DarkWolf

I got the card yesterday and spent some time with Battlefield 4. So far so good. I'm still not sure if SBX is helping positional cues or not, but it does make the sound feel bigger and a little farther outside the phones, which is cool. BF4 has it's own confusing sound options, and I'm not sure about the game's sound in general. My benchmark will be Mass Effect 3 multiplayer.
  
 Do you guys have any tips for setting everything up? Based on what I've read so far, I have the creative controls set to headphone, windows set to 5.1 speakers, and BF4 set to "surround."


----------



## helmutcheese

Guys I need some input and before the 19th as that is final day I can return this ZxR to Amazon.
  
 I have never kept an item this long to then return (normally DSA is 7days) and am not in habit of retuning unless not working.
  
 I read/watched reviews for weeks and every post here and on OC.net but over there 1 guy got called a Troll for not liking his card and they claimed he did not even own it.
  
 So I come here and I know there is not going to be some magic setting but something must be wrong.
  
 Seems a bit of mess as I paste it here and try to space it out as way it pasted in its 1 block of text.
  
 You could be saving me a waste of my time (3+ weeks now) and £200.
  
 Copy/pasted From Creative forums where I made a thread and added to a few (zero replies).
  
  
  
 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  
  
 A little history 1st: I have never heard as good a sound on a PC as I had in 2001 with a SB Live 5.1 and Cambridge SoundWorks Desktop Theater 5.1 DTT2200 Speakers.
  
 Audigy 2 was close.
  
 Audigy 2ZS was a buggy POS.
  
 X-Fi Platinum Fatal1ty Champion was just ok.
  
 X-Fi Titanium Fatal1ty was just ok and only bought it due to I had to as no longer having PCI slots in new Mobo.
  
 Now my dilemma, I have removed my ZxR, I tested for a couple of weeks with different 2.0/2.1/5/1 speakers, even bought Corsairs SP2500's.
 I am not happy with the sound be it audio, movies or games.
 Its lacking something I cannot explain but see a few others have same issues on the WWW but 99% think its great.
 The gaming profile for FPS is really low volume so I have to tweak it for each game instead of a simple game mode like X-Fi's have which sounds fine in all games.
  
 Also I am not sure if I have became a artificial sound junkie but I prefer CMSS-3D and EAX to upmix stereo to 5.1 but after 2+weeks I should be over it.
 I spent months reading this forum on the Z Series and a few other sites including some HIFI sites and went against my better judgment in buying a Z Series after saying I would not last year (never say never).
  
 I assumed the software would be up to scratch by now but its poor and rehashed old drivers are a joke. I wonder if it is the software side letting the card down as nearly every EQ sounds nearly the same apart from the good Classical EQ (picked up by more than 1 review site). I want to like the card and expected it to blow me away sound wise even if not the best speakers in the world at my end but enough to make me buy better ones but those Corsairs get great reviews. I wonder if I am making a mistake and better drivers will come out but I cannot see Creative making a better software package.
  
  
 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  
  
 I have a 7.1 set and 2x 5.1 sets, so Creative make cards and speakers that we buy then they made the speakers redundant by going back to 5.1 card even though competitors make 7.1 cards (Asus etc).
 And yes even HDMI out and Onboard audio all do 7.1 today. I am on the verge of returning this ZxR, not due to no 7.1 as I knew that when I went back on my word and bought it but due to performances is poor IMO.
 The support is poor and quality of sound is nowhere near as good as reviews etc. claim to my ears and IMO I have a good ear for music and always have had.
  
 The rehashed old driver repacked as new a few weeks back was also a nail in the coffin for me.
 I have had Creative cards since 2001 and was on this forum back then but left due to lack of support around Audigy 2ZS time and the Nazi attitude of a certain female Mod who banned anyone who spoke out about Creative's support (thank God she is not longer active).
 I remember you from that other thread BTW, you at least held out unlike myself.
  
  
 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  
  
 I knew about the X-Fi Modes, just wondered if some wonder settings you could share would make me like my ZxR.
 I always left it on Xpand due to me liking the centre channel esp. for movies but I may try audio with the other mode.
  
 Edit: It does sound a bit more deeper in Surround but I still get Centre Speaker so may keep it on this.
 I said in my other thread I have never had really good sound since the SB Live 5.1, all Audigy's and X-FI have gotten worse each build.
 I had hope for this Z series after all glowing reviews and its been out long enough to mature.
  
 Why were the early ZxR's recalled? Wonder if I somehow got one that slipped trough the cracks.
 You can see my thread has zero replies and I mean official from Creative, no doubt it will be going back to Amazon.
  
 http://software.store.creative.com/s...106-21569.aspx < Wonder fi that would work on our cards, looks better than crap we got with premium cards and has EAX effects.
  
  
 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  
  
 EAX works with Vista not just XP, only Win 7 removed the Hardware Sound and its back in Win 8 but not supported by these cards.
 I have no clue why peeps claim EAX in newer OS did not work as it does using Alchemy for some games.
  
 My post would show up by clicking my username, if you have some insight leave it here please as I want to show Creative up for what they are with zero reply from support.
 I am 99% sure the ZxR is going back, one more swap to it tomorrow to try again but I doubt it will sound any better as there is a lack of drivers and I doubt a proper new one could improve it.
  
 http://forums.creative.com/showthread.php?t=701157 I am not into headphones and that is why I probably have good hearing and not deaf like some peeps I know from loud music from the Sony Walkman (tape) days till now in there ears (can hear it across a road).
 Also not wanting large HIFI speakers around PC as if I wanted that I would listen to my HIFI which I have not since 2001 due to the PC sound back in 2001 being so good and its handier.
  
 I was willing to spend a few hundred on them and the Corsairs were not cheap.
 Those Corsairs were about the max size for PC area and if you read reviews they get highly rated and even though name states Gaming/Audio if you look at the Corsair Reps review on YT he does state "peeps listening to music on their PC's" was main concern.
 A poor card with great speakers is not going to sound good and vice versa.
 It is a PC at the end of the day and there is a limit to cost and quality or I again would use my HIFI.
  
  
 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  
 Thanks in advanced if anyone can share any input.


----------



## helmutcheese

Just waiting on my 1st post being moderate due to link in it so why try give you a little help though for speakers.
  
 BF3/4 have a Audio Setting "WarTapes", it sound great at 1st but you cannot work out where the sounds are coming from so not good IMO and many others if you Google on it.


----------



## NamelessPFG

darkwolf said:


> So the question is then; How many of us audiophile gamers _actually_ _like_ SBX Surround?


 
  
 Going by YouTube videos, it doesn't cut out the bass or screw with the tonality the way CMSS-3D Headphone does...
  
 ...but in the end, I still find it worse for actually pinpointing sounds than CMSS-3D Headphone in those L4D2 videos, so SBX Pro Surround still loses.
  
 It would be easier for me to test some things out if I had a Z-series card for myself, though. Mostly some theories about EQing the bass and how that might affect perceived positioning, since that's the biggest difference people are likely to notice when comparing the two, but also testing it out with games that most people here wouldn't think to test with. UT, BF2/2142, etc...wait a minute, SBX disables itself when running native OpenAL anyway.
  


helmutcheese said:


> EAX works with Vista not just XP, only Win 7 removed the Hardware Sound and its back in Win 8 but not supported by these cards.
> I have no clue why peeps claim EAX in newer OS did not work as it does using Alchemy for some games.


 
  
 Actually, Vista DID remove DirectSound3D from its audio stack, and Windows 7 only carried that change forward. That's why ALchemy exists.
  
 People talk about Windows 8 bringing back hardware-accelerated audio, but the simple fact is that it's not DirectSound3D and thus isn't pertinent to old games that used DirectSound3D for hardware acceleration. Thankfully, ALchemy does a decent job wrapping it all into OpenAL.
  
 A lot of the EAX confusion stems from how it's a feature done through DirectSound3D and OpenAL, but not really a native feature of either. Notice that I said OpenAL as well; this is why you don't need ALchemy to enable EAX under BF2 and BF2142, for instance. (I can only wonder why they didn't use EFX instead, which isn't confined to Creative hardware like EAX 3/4/5.)


----------



## helmutcheese

I could not remember 100% what OS removed it after XP.
  
 What about my main concern before I waste £200?


----------



## DarkWolf

You're giving us a lot to read and not much info. What speakers are you using? Which cards have you used with the same speakers? What aspect of the sound is not to your liking, the over all quality, or the DSP features? (SBX, crystalizer, etc.)
  
 If you're using the card with the same set of speakers that you've used with other cards and you just don't like it, then it seems like you should return it.


----------



## helmutcheese

I get that and appreciate any help  but I did try with 3 different sets of speakers and buy those high end PC speakers (Corsair SP2500) for the ZxR expecting a decent set of speakers to bring it to life.
  
 I tried all settings and think its sounded flat/lacking, the EQ's all sound near the same and low volume apart from the Classical (brought up by a few reviewers), the FPS mode for gaming is quiet so you need mess with EQ every new song/album/game or movie and it still IMO sounds poor.
  
 I have heard it sound muddy mid song and played it back again and its fine, I can at times hear the change in quality, nothing can be messing with it like PCI-E lanes etc. as the other X-FI is fine.
  
 My GPU used the CPU slots bandwidth and the soundcard in the Mobos Chipsets Slot so not related to each other IRQ wise and no other cards fitted.
  
 I tried 2.0/2.1/5.1 set ups, without the Smart Volume set to Loud its very low volume and before I would never use this on my X-Fi's (SVM) as it spoiled the sound and was not even needed.
  
 The Corsairs up full were not loud even for my old age (I am past very loud music) and lacking any bass never mind basshead type bass.
  
 On these old Cambridge Soundworks 5.1 the volume is through the roof with its wired remote down lo and the bass is there even turned down low on Sub but again the overall sound is flat/lacking.
  
 They are good speakers but I doubt very high/expensive end and only mono cone speakers with no tweeters so lack a bit of mids.
  
 It was hard to find reviews on them as so old now but I linked to Amazon.uk and I think it was 3 peeps had reviewed them and one commented as recent as Dec 2013 saying he dug these out from his loft or such and they sounded better than any PC speakers he had bought/heard to date.
  
 I cannot be one of the few on here who think its has flat/lacking sound surely when all others including reviews give it glowing reports.
  
 I really wanted to be blown away and love music on this card as I know the past few cards its been ok but not as good as the sound I had back in 2001 that blew all my family/friends away when then came around.
  
 I cannot say I had anywhere near even acceptable PC sound quality from the ZxR.
  
 If buying a £300 set of speakers was the answer I would but I highly doubt it and the footprint is too large for PC area.
  
 There is only a few drivers and the latest one is same old one rehashed/packed and the software is poor for a high end card.
  
 We all know the support sucks.
  
 I am not sure if its even worth trying it again or leaving it in the box to go back on Monday because nothing has changed and I have mixed and matched all the speakers I own and did own (the SP2500's) for a short time.
  
 I have for the 1st time in a long time now got decent sound with the X-Fi and Cambridge speakers (lacking a little mid) but I bought a £200 card to get the best.


----------



## NoOneLt

Hey @helmutcheese How it come You believe Corsair is a "high-end" speaker? Anyway, how You connected it to ZxR, You used RCA cables out ZxR and same RCA to SUB? Try to set output to stereo first (not stereo direct) then tun OFF ALL enchacements, EQ, SBX, scout mode. It should give normal sounding sound.


----------



## helmutcheese

I never said it was  high end HIFI speaker but PC speaker system and not cheap for 2.1 PC speakers and I knew someone would try and blame the speakers or cables.
  
 If you read my posts fully you will see I did not only try 1 set of speakers.
  
 If you look at them on the Corsair site you will see how they are wired, they have PSU type connections so not easy to swap but the cables are thick/good quality.
  
 The Corsair cable that connects the soundcard to Sub is not as thick/good quality so I replaced it with good quality RCA to RCA and then also tried  a RCA to stereo in the other Subs input and tried 2.0 Stereo and Stereo direct and sound was poor.
  
 Sound volume is already low enough with all enhancements on never mind off and sounds worse as it needs some shaping.
  
 I am here as a last ditch effort to keep the card and know how to wire it up it, does come with instructions so does any speakers.


----------



## DarkWolf

It sounds to me like you are pretty sure the card isn't to your liking. If you have all the wacky enhancements turned off and the speakers are setup right and none of the speakers you have and are familiar with sound good with the new card, then I don't think there's much else to do. Maybe try one of the ASUS cards? I haven't heard them, but they are very popular here. Also, Ausentech makes Creative based cards with higher quality output circuitry. I don't know if they have anything based on the Z now, last time I looked, it was all X-Fi. I had their Prelude 7.1 and it was good. The DAC doesn't stand up to my NFB-10SE, but that's in a different class.


----------



## helmutcheese

Save myself £200+more for speakers by keeping my X-Fi and old Speakers from 2001 as sound is acceptable for a PC.
  
 Just read all the raves about how good the Z series was after Creative being crap for years but IMO it sounds crap.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Something must have been seriously wrong with your setup as the DAC and line out objectively should sound the same at least(being conservative here) if not much better.

Perhaps you just got used to the sound signature of your old card and that's what you prefer. Happens all the time really.


----------



## helmutcheese

I did mention I was worried I had become used (or a junkie) to substandard artificial audio due to not so good sound for a long time on more recent Creative cards on my PC after that great set up in 2001.
  
 Surely 3+week would get me detoxed?
  
  
 Movies and game sound the most lacking on the ZxR without messing with all setting each time but I really primary wanted good music playback (though I am a gamer) because the Audigy/X-Fi cards do ok in movies and games.


----------



## SaLX

@helmetcheese: something's gone wrong, somewhere. The Z on it's own sounds great. Do a complete reinstall, seeing as you've got old legacy drivers lurking in your OS.
  
 Bizarre.


----------



## helmutcheese

That is not the issue, Windows 8.1 was installed to a brand new SSD the week the ZxR arrived and I did so with no sound card/onboard installed and did without sound for a few days while I read reviews, ordered and my card arrived.
  
 I then popped card in and installed the latest driver and then found unlike reviews and 99% of owners claim you do need the daughter board to use it fully or you are missing 2 sections in the control panel (Googling confirms this).
  
 I do know how to get rid of old drivers anyhow and I think I have wasted enough time/money and did all that is possible, Creative sure as hell are not supporting it with repacked old drivers.
  
 The card gives no errors just sounds crap IMO, I would still like to know what the early batches of ZxR were recalled for.
  
 I really was excited (1st time with hardware in a long time) to order the card and was disappointed with it on day 1 but tried many different set ups to give it a chance.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Just to clarify you don't need the daughter board to fully utilize the zxr for analogue out functions. The only missing options are related to the digital in and out and line in.

I don't think anyone has ever stated the opposite that I have ever seen. I myself used my zxr without a daughterboard the entire time. This thread is also full of this same fact.


----------



## helmutcheese

No Dolby or DTS settings without it.
  
 I messed about with those to try get better sound, esp. in Movies.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Like I said. Digital out options.


----------



## helmutcheese

I connected using analogue and still got to mess with the different sounds with both Dolby and the DTS Neo modes.


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

Yea DTS Neo is also missing if the daughter board isn't connected which isn't only for "digital out" but another simulation of surround for stereo material and affects every sound played also out of the headphone jack.


----------



## germanium

Helmutcheese.
  
 My soundcard preferences for cards that have the best sound out of box for music is the Asus Xonar D2/PM or D2X. After that & following very very closely is the Asus Xonar Essense STX/ ST. The ZXR  card is below these stock All creative branded X-Fi cards fall below these cards in music sound quality.
  
 For cards that I have modified the order changes to ZXR > Essense STX > X-Fi Titanium HD > All other creative branded true X-Fi cards.
  
 I have modified all variants of these cards except the Asus Xonar D2/PM or D2X which is difficult to modify but sounded acceptable out of the box to me, mind you not as good as the top 3 cards once modified. The only problem with the D2/PM & D2X is they have no headphone amp & the lineout output impedance is quite high for driving headphones but acceptably low for driving a line out to powered/active speakers or amplifiers as cable capacitance should not affect sound quality with these cards.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

rpgwizard said:


> Yea DTS Neo is also missing if the daughter board isn't connected which isn't only for "digital out" but another simulation of surround for stereo material and affects every sound played also out of the headphone jack.




Didn't realize DTS neo worked through analogues too. Never tried this.


----------



## Fegefeuer

New Alchemy Version with dsound.dll from Dec 12th, 2013
  
 https://mega.co.nz/#!VFADDS5C!tpP349WvoLe_v-bYATDwENEigvstKVhAPtLK8Opjhoo


----------



## germanium

Helmutcheese
  
 Here is a link to review of the D2X from when it first came out.
  
 http://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/asus_xonar_d2x_sound_card_review,9.html


----------



## helmutcheese

I would not touch an Asus card.
  
 I use them for Mobos (all high end Rogs) and have done for past 13 years but their support sucks worst than Creative and that is saying something.
  
 The 3rd party drivers do not seem to be supported by whoever made them as well as Creative's PAX.
  
 I will go back my old X-Fi if need be.
  
 I spent all day Sunday right to early Monday morning messing about and will do the same today.
  
 I have made a few of my own discoveries and confirmed other peeps niggles.
  
 I can tell you the new repacked driver (22) is worst sound and is the cause of my sound cutting out for 1 sec randomly or at times when I click a open Browser tabs on my taskbar that has been sitting idle, does not happen on (16).
  
 Once I decide by Tuesday I will post some of my finding if you are interested but everything I am seeing can be backed up by at least a few others peeps posts with same issues that I have read on the card over the past weeks/months.
  
 This is Creative not Nvidia so its not like we can say the hardware good but its need mature Drivers/Software as they are slow to release them and probably will never fix it 100%.
  
 IMO a commitment to driver support and rewrite a proper Software Package like that standalone MB3 kit and it would be a good start, its lacking as it is.
  
  
 http://software.store.creative.com/software.aspx


----------



## NoOneLt

helmutcheese ZxR quality without any mods way over X-Fi. 
  
 You "I would not touch an Asus card." though people telling You that their SQ is top out of the box... Both ZxR and ASUS is better out of the box then any X-Fi. Everyone's support sucks as You say.. Maybe there is something in Your set-up to blame? 
  
 Try to RMA ZxR if it sound so awful, it can sound "awful" only if it is broken. Of course it is not perfect, but not awful.


----------



## helmutcheese

I am not alone with my issues of sound quality, but I have no bugs or stuff like drivers not finding device some got so assume its working.
  
 Remember I game also and Creative do that better but this ZxR lacks in games so far IMO.
  
 I am not going to mess with every settings for each game I play, the default FPS profile is poor, Scout Mode sounds weird and its for MP play and gives you an advantage but I play mostly SP (campaigns).
  
 TBH I can save £200 and a lot of time/hassle by keeping my "OK sounding" X-Fi.
  
 Many prefer the X-Fi due to and positioning of CMSS-3D and EAX.
  
 I have adjusted the rear speakers db using the other App so its now more surround as before the fronts were stealing from the rear and the centre was stealing from the fronts.
  
 I seem to have a balance now where its like the X-Fi's better Stereo Surround/Xpand Modes.
  
 Sound is very subjective but I cannot work out how this card gets great reviews by 99% of users, go to Creative forums and see its not the same story there.


----------



## Radical_53

As long as the card isn't defective, and set up right, it should sound very good. It might sound too "honest" in comparison to what you were using before but normally that's how the game works.
  
 I'm using my card both with speakers (RCA outs) and headphones (headphone out), with Windows always being set to 5.1 speakers, and only SBX surround turned on (default value of 67%). No EQ, no other settings to mess with the sound.
  
 What I must admit though is that I haven't tried surround speakers, in combination with my PC, for years. I connected it to my home theater setup once but, as I was using a HDMI connection, the sound card didn't play any role there.
 Surround "simulation" is very good, especially very precise, and has been much better for me in comparison to the former CMSS-3D.


----------



## NoOneLt

helmutcheese 
  
 For games:
 SBX surround - should be used only for headphones or stereo speakers.
 CMSS-3D vs. SBX surround - questionable, i prefer SBX @ 45% +/-
 SBX pro studio - all other than surround - off
 Scout mode - Should never be used
 Profiles - if You are too lazy to spend 5 min. setting own profiles, well...
 EQ - off
 EAX - ZxR do support EAX, any other modern game does not, so what is the use of EAX then?... - don't write thing You don't understand, You can mislead someone!
  
 In games this sound OK for most of people including me, but not for You.
  
 For music music: all Off, again sounds good for most of us, that's why it gets positive reviews.
  
 And noone told you to spend that £200, it seems like You blame people around here because You spent £200...
  
 Your post just spreads negativity on product but it seems that not the product here to blame. And again, if You feel that it is sounding wrong - RMA it, it can not sound worse than X-Fi.


----------



## helmutcheese

Ok I am lazy in your opinion, let me make a new profile for every game I have just to sound half decent, no thanks.
  
 I should not need to do as much work to get decent sound.
  
 You really are the 1st member here to talk BS towards me.
  
 When did I state the card cannot do EAX in games?
  
 I know its EAX 5.0 HD, it cannot do so in music for effects like Live/Audigy/X-Fi can so do not read what you do not understand you can mislead someone. < right back at you.
  
 I never blamed anyone so less of the lies, your input is zero help.
  
 Creative have enough negativity without me needing to help, are you a fanboy of sort and cannot see by them?
  
 There is no way I can tell if card is faulty unlike a Mobo or GPU, it works so that may be a waste of RMA.
  
 Again sound is subjective and many do prefer the X-fi, so you need to learn to accept others do not have same view as you.


----------



## NoOneLt

Now i start to believe You are not lazy but just don't get it at all... One profile for all games and one profile for music, maybe one more for movies. If setting this is too hard, and ZxR still sound worse than X-Fi than just go back to X-Fi and stop telling people that ZxR is sooo sooo baaad...


----------



## helmutcheese

Why do you not crawl back under your rock as all you are doing is trolling and stop telling others what they can and cannot be happy with.
  
 I came here for some real input and 2 or 3 peeps have given it but you add nothing so just ignore me.
  
 I have not given up yet and messing with the card right now.
  
 You are a liar as everything I have said is my own opinion (though can be backed up by reading other peeps input all over WWW), I do not talk for others.
  
 I have blocked you (talk all the crap you like now I will never see it) and I ideally do not want to be the new guy causing trouble but you have not been here long either and have only talked BS towards me so far.
  
 Sorry to the 2-3 who have helped me a little so far, I am still on the case.
  
 Just listened to a album I ripped years ago (Tears For Fears -Tears Roll Down - Greatest Hits), wow every song sounded good and even though its only 192Kb, strange as most of my other albums including higher bitrate and CD's sound ok for some tracks and poor for others.
  
 I need to get past the music and on to movies/games as that will determine my keeping card or not also, movies being less important out of the 3.


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

People will be very defensive on head-fi in general trying to defend their purchases if you come off particularly aggressive/negative towards a product, that I've seen happen often. I met quite a bit resistance too when I said I prefer the sound of the onboard solution on the latest Intel series ASRock Extreme6 Z87 motherboard with Realtek ALC1150 + TI NE5532 opamps. I'm mostly following the thread in hope for a miracle config/hack/3rd party driver which may make me like the card again as long as I got the card on my bookshelf.


----------



## NoOneLt

I just leave this quotes here, if IMO means that one can talk everything after writing IMO, so IMO someone is lying telling multiple times all over the place that ZxR is crap. I do not have some golden ears but it is definately not a crap. And i do not defend Creative about any other product, their support or something else, had X-Fi Titanium, and now i have ZxR, IMO ZxR is better, and at every point it SHOULD sound better if it is not faulty.
  
 Quote:


helmutcheese said:


> The card gives no errors just sounds crap IMO, I would still like to know what the early batches of ZxR were recalled for.
> 
> I really was excited (1st time with hardware in a long time) to order the card and was disappointed with it on day 1 but tried many different set ups to give it a chance.


 
  


helmutcheese said:


> Just read all the raves about how good the Z series was after Creative being crap for years but IMO it sounds crap.


 
  
 @RPGWiZaRD One can really say "that sound better", "this sound better" but not "this is a crap". Same was with my ATH-A900X, i hoped wonder's from it, but then just got DT-990 Prem. and found it sounds better, but i just know that this headphones sounds different (it is different headphones, even different types), not better or worse, and i don't go to ATH-A900X thread to tell it is crap


----------



## helmutcheese

Thanks for input, yes I know it was a choice of here or OC.net where a guy who did not like his Z series was accused of not owning one and being a troll lol.
  
 I am open to suggestions and think I have sorted out some good movie settings for proper 5.1 and stereo sources upmixed.
  
 Ned to see how my weekly TV Aps sound though, then sort out same for games.
  
 I admitted at very start I was worried I had became some kind of junkie over the years with "just ok" artificial sound and I know the source matters so testing mainly with my own CD's (bought from 1986-present).
  
 I remember reading your post as I did read this thread fully and others on other sites, took weeks/months.
  
 Like myself you seem to expect it to sound better and want it to sound better ands are not here to simply wind others up with false BS.
  
 AFAIK my Asus Z87 Rog has same sound as your Mobo but I have never use onboard since 2001 for my own builds but do so for others as they will not buy a soundcard and are not that quality orientated.
  
 I stand by if Creative were Nvidia they could redo the software side and I bet it would be far better, I doubt the hardware is to blame especially on the ZxR.
  
 I can assume my buddy above is talking more BS/Trolling with his broken English posts, he needs to grasp the fact all I have said is my own opinion/findings but many of my issues are the same for others, a sad case IMO.


----------



## Radical_53

It's not even (necessarily) a defensive position but the question at hand should, and can't, be between "crap" and "great". The scale would be totally wrong then. It *has* to be a nuissance, a question about details, a matter of taste. 
 If the result is black & white though, simply put, there has to be something going on and something gone wrong in particular.


----------



## helmutcheese

How do I tell if a soundcard is not 100%, not like a GPU where it will black screen or simply not work period.
  
 I do not like returning an item for no reason even though some do it daily, I do not abuse the DSA (UK).
  
 You can obviously with any sound set up make sound crap to great by messing with settings.
  
 I can make my 20+year old HIFI sound crap by messing with all settings.


----------



## Radical_53

Well, by ruling things out. Apart from tryng the card with headphones I'd turn off all the features the card has and run the speakers ins stereo-mode. If they allow you to connect them digitally, I'd try that to get a comparison also. 
  
 I think the problem should have something to do with a setting or some messed-up install. From the experience I've had with home theater amps I know that a single setting can mess up your sound enough to make something sound like pure crap (mostly these options are called "enhancers"  ).


----------



## helmutcheese

The card was installed on a clean system with zero sound (new SSD), card arrived later that week and was fitted but now has been back to X-Fi and back to Z  again.
  
 I know how to get rid of old drivers etc.
  
 TBH the card sounded pretty good as soon as it booted up with no Creative drivers just Ms ones  installed but you lack features then.
  
 I stand by what others have found that the new (old repacked) driver is worst than the previous driver but I had to install the newer one after not getting the full set of feature to install with older one (again a common issue).
  
 Might be able to roll back driver now and keep the features that should have install initially.
  
 I mean if Creative were pumping out new drivers like a GPU vendor it would be great and any bad driver could be forgiven as short lived.
  
 I do not have any decent headphones and have never been into them and speakers are all analogue, I said in initial post many I know are deaf from Walkman days and I was one of the very few not to listen to headphones but preferred speakers.
  
 I think some peeps have them grafted on to their ears for eat/sleep ****ting.
  
 I can handle going to the shop without music for 5mins and in the home always had a good HIFI till I gave up using it in 2001 due to the PC set up being so good and handier due to mp3 etc.
  
 I could be temped by a good 2.0/2.1 set up but games would be lacking and again movies are my last concern as I can use my WD Box+TV.
  
 I wonder what you would think if you could walk in to my home and hear this set up now and then hear my "just ok" X-Fi set up, which one would you prefer.
  
 I can be bold enough to say my Live 5.1+Cambridge set up in 2001 would blow you away and you would be ranting to family/friends about it.


----------



## Radical_53

I've had two of those old Cambridge setups myself, back in the days, and I've always been very happy with them.
  
 What I do know though is that Creative's drivers can be quite a pain. For example there's always some residue in the "non p&p" area of the device manager, drivers that you can only remove manually.
 It has also helped me, more than once, to start installing a new Creative card with the supplied DVD, then upgrading this with the newest driver from the site. Somehow, this seems to be the most "complete" installation.
 To be sure, at least when using Win8/8.1, I do also use the "remove driver signature" flag, just as a precaution (it takes far less time to boot with the flag active than it takes to remove and re-install the driver).
  
 If the card sounded good without the drivers there's at least some light at the end of the tunnel


----------



## helmutcheese

Yea, I just wish it was a case of waiting on Creative getting mature drivers (should be by now) and then buying a high end set of 2.1/5.1 speakers.
  
 I have no clue why Asus and Creative have so poor support for Tier 1 outfits in their fields, they got big by being like this, or I guess a lot of OEM sales.
  
 Creative's optical side died a death (too expensive at time) when it should have boomed and GPU side also died, they need to get reorganised.


----------



## Radical_53

I can't speak of Win 8.1 yet but, apart from that, the drivers "seem" to be pretty good, both overall and especially to Creative's standards. What they do have though is a funky installation routine.
 Creative is one of the very, very few companies that I've had huge issues with "beta" drivers with, drivers that could easily trash your system's installation.
 Now, from a logical point of view, with all the different filters and EQs in place a borked installation could mess up the whole thing easily.
  
 The matter of choice is whether there's something you like about the card or not. Then it may be easier to simply get something else that works right away.
 I, for example, ran into detection issues at one place. It got really hard to boot up my pc and use the card "regularly". As I love the SBX system for my headphones, I wanted the card to work.
 My temporary fix is the DBpro card. As long as I have it connected to the main card, the two of them will always be detected, no matter if I cold-boot my machine or do a fast reboot. 
  
 Someone here said that the THX setup program, something I'd supposedly use if I was using speakers, messed up his sound. Maybe it's something like that? 
  
 Btw., fresh install, to me, includes the following steps:
  
 - uninstall the package, all Creative software
 - boot into safe mode
 - uninstall the "raw" card, maybe even with a driver cleaner software
 - uninstall the non p-n-p Creative devices
 - reboot into safe mode
 - delete all the remaining Creative folders
 - do a registry scan (I use CCleaner for this)
 - reboot into Windows using the "disable driver signature check" flag
 - re-install the drivers, starting with the CD


----------



## helmutcheese

I never had the issue with speakers getting mixed up due to the "Speaker Set Up" App (looks like the old TXH Console).
  
 I left it out this time but added it back in to adjust the speakers levels to get the sound more equal like I think I said above If not I will add later as I am getting somewhere buts its a lot of work unlike previous cards with decent default settings lol.
  
 P.S Win 8 onwards does not have PnP in the Device Manager.
  
 I know how to clear it out also manually or with a program called GhostBuster.
  
  
 1. Click Start
 2. Click Run
 3. Type cmd.exe in the textbox and click OK
 4. Type set devmgr_show_nonpresent_devices=1 and hit ENTER
 5. Type cd\windows\system32 and hit ENTER
 6. Type start devmgmt.msc and hit ENTER
 7. When the device manager opens, click the View menu
 8. Click Show Hidden Devices


----------



## Radical_53

Guess you're right about that. I've had to do this numerous times with my old X-Fi cards but the ZXR has been (apart from the issue mentioned) flawless for me.
 Channel swapping and so on are typical Creative problems, so to say.
  
 The way I understood it was that the speaker setup tool would mess up the sound quality, not just the channels.


----------



## helmutcheese

That is way I read into it also but I had no option as adjusting Balance Sliders to get sound equal messed up as soon as master volume was moved.
  
 I have not had channels swapping on this Z series or my PCI-E X-Fi but it did start to happen on my last PCI X-Fi (cannot remember models of top of my head), it would also randomly make a horrid screech sound that nearly blew my eardrums.
  
 Sound entries are now are up the top of Device Manager as well as the normal bottom entries.


----------



## verde57

Which has better DAC and line out, Asus STX or this Z type?
 should i discard my Asus ST and buy Creative?


----------



## NoOneLt

verde57 said:


> Which has better DAC and line out, Asus STX or this Z type?
> should i discard my Asus ST and buy Creative?


 
  
 Z and Zx have same hardware part, ant it is worse than ST/STX. ZxR hardware can be compared to ST/STX but some say that out of the box (not modded) Asus sounds better.
  
 I believe if You have ST upgrade won't give You a WOW effect. Of course depends what You up to? For games with headphones ASUS have Dolby Headphones and Creative have SBX surround, different tech. sound different, no one can tell witch is better, some prefer DH some SBX.
  
 I believe if question is only about SQ it is very questionable upgrade.


helmutcheese said:


> Did not think it matters much if going digital as card does not make the sound so even Mobo optical out would be same.


 
 Hmmm... Line out is not digital/optical. And question is about DAC/line out


----------



## Manel

Hi,
  
 I plan on buying the Sound Blaster ZxR, a pair of Senns HD598 and the Edifier S550 Encore speakers. I'll use this combo for movies, gaming and music. Is this a good choice? Or can I get better SQ for the same price range?
  
 I'm a little bit concerned about the lack of DDL and DTS decoding in the ZxR, because the speakers only have analog inputs. Is this really an issue in movies?


----------



## helmutcheese

The card does DDL if the speakers do not have digital connections that is not down to the card.
  
 DTS connect should be same end result as DTS as it converts any audio into 5.1 so I assume if its 5.1 to start with it be fine but it will upmix stereo to 5.1.
  
 I have never had digital speaker's so not tried. but you will be fine with analogue cables.
  
 Those speaker have been out a long time and cost a lot still today, not everywhere you can buy them.
  
 The bummer is the high end 2.1 set was upgraded to a digital set and they said it was to happen to the 5.1 set but never did.


----------



## NoOneLt

manel said:


> Hi,
> 
> I plan on buying the Sound Blaster ZxR, a pair of Senns HD598 and the Edifier S550 Encore speakers. I'll use this combo for movies, gaming and music. Is this a good choice? Or can I get better SQ for the same price range?
> 
> I'm a little bit concerned about the lack of DDL and DTS decoding in the ZxR, because the speakers only have analog inputs. Is this really an issue in movies?


 
 Hi,
  
 ZxR support DDL and DTS connect (http://www.soundblaster.com/products/sound-blaster-zx.aspx#specs) other than this will need software decoding by your movie player. Also check specs for output, it has Front/Back/Center 5.1 output, so no worries, but You won't need it if You plan to use headphones. And DDL, DTSC used to pass via digital out forward (not decode DD/DTS), so again with headphones You won't be using it.
  
 HD598 is nice in SQ but google "sennheiser crack" their design is not flawless and has a weak point. 
  
 For games i like my Beyerdynamic DT990, maybe for music something like AKG Q701 (they could lack of bass for games though, check MadLust thread) would sound better with music i believe, because DT990 sometimes have very sharp heights.
  
 My experience with ZxR is fine, listen to music and do games with SBX surround, like it more than CMSS-3D from creative ,though never tried DolbyHeadphone so can't compare.
  
 UPDATE: DDL meant to convert any 5.1 surround, from games as example and convert it live to AC3 then pass it to external receiver. So again, if no external speakers with decoder or receiver is used no use in it. And then You do not even need expansion card to be connected (it adds I/O and opens some advanced features in SBX soft, i found it useless if only headphones is in use), only the main one.
  
 UPDATE2: Missed the Edifier part, it only has "5.1 channel and 2 stereo input options for versatile connections" digital input is not mentioned anywhere on page. So You will have "plain" 5.1 from ZxR outputs not encoded.
 Also Keep in mind that it is better to connect headphones directly to ZxR than to Edifier. And then switch ZxR between headphones/speaker mode.
  
 UPDATE3: As addition about DTSC and DDL to update part, basically you can't call them decoders, they are encoders, DTL support doesn't mean card can decode DolbyDigital so don't be mistaken in any way. To decode DolbyDigital or True HD as example You still need a decoder, hardware one or software, TotalMedia Theater or Power DVD have DD/DDS software decoders. And encoder creates DD stream and can send it via digital outputs further to decoder.


----------



## yoyo711

creative sound blaster Z  what is best sound setting ?? headphone ?


----------



## MaxKohler

noonelt said:


> For games i like my Beyerdynamic DT990, maybe for music something like AKG Q701 (they could lack of bass for games though, check MadLust thread) would sound better with music i believe, because DT990 sometimes have very sharp heights.


 
 You prefer the DT990 over the Q701 for gaming?


----------



## MaxKohler

double post


----------



## NCSUZoSo

Here are some of my settings that I've saved:
  
  
 Polk Audio New
 11  16  19  18  18  15  18  19  20  14
  
 Polk Audio Primary
 09  12  13  09  08  12  14  17  17  15
  
 Polk Audio Primary 2
 14  11  15  12  10  11  14  20  21  17
  
 HP100 Music
 19  16  13  16  12  10  15  18  17  15
  
 HP100 First
 18  16  12  15  10  12  17  16  23  20
  
 HP100 Music Less Bass
 11  15  14  11  13  14  12  16  19  17


----------



## NoOneLt

maxkohler said:


> You prefer the DT990 over the Q701 for gaming?


 
 Couldn't say this, haven't heard Q701, chosen DT990 "blindly" by reading reviews and threads here, MadLust thread helped to go DT990 for games as i was afraid Q701 will lack bass in games (and ATH-A900X for my ears seems to have a bit dull bass) so i was afraid to get another headphones lacking bass, that was the main aspect. Of course i can't directly compare DT and ATH as one is opened other closed and sound is different. Also really can't tell i am a bass addict, but in games explosions and other stuff really can sound different with/without enough clear/bright bass.
  
 Again, only thing i din't get Q701 was the fear of weak bass, and this fear was only based on reviews. DT990 on the other hand seems sometimes to have harsh heights, but it depends on ears and in games it seems not to be a problem.
  
 Another question are you ok with open headphones, keep in mind that if You have a lot of background noise in room than they may sound strange.


----------



## benbenkr

noonelt said:


> Hi,
> 
> ZxR support DDL and DTS connect (http://www.soundblaster.com/products/sound-blaster-zx.aspx#specs) other than this will need software decoding by your movie player. Also check specs for output, it has Front/Back/Center 5.1 output, so no worries, but You won't need it if You plan to use headphones. And DDL, DTSC used to pass via digital out forward (not decode DD/DTS), so again with headphones You won't be using it.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Sigh.
  
 When will people stop with this mis-information? The cracking issue has been long, long, long fixed. Those cracking issues only happened for the first 2 batch models and has been fixed since late 2010/early 2011.
 There are no more cracking issues on the HD598 (and HD558 since we're on this topic).


----------



## NoOneLt

benbenkr said:


> Sigh.
> 
> When will people stop with this mis-information? The cracking issue has been long, long, long fixed. Those cracking issues only happened for the first 2 batch models and has been fixed since late 2010/early 2011.
> There are no more cracking issues on the HD598 (and HD558 since we're on this topic).


 
 Nice to hear, but about 6 month ago i asked seller about Senns as i wanted to get them and he said to google the crack problem, i did a quick search and there was posts from 12-13 year, so it seemed like people had problems until then.
  
 Anyway, good if it is fixed.


----------



## Anarion

Heh, my HD595's have that issue. There's large chunk missing but so far that has been visual issue.


----------



## imeem

do gaming sound cards games improve directional and distance audio in games? In FPS games, i can tell which direction the sound came from but i have no idea how far away it is. The game i'm referring to is BF 3.


----------



## NoOneLt

Decent sound is dead in games for a while (same BF3, You on the 1 floor, someone at the 2 as is still seems that his steps is near You, not above).. Basically if You use 5.1 speaker set-up as example it doesn't really matter what sound card you will use (if we are not taking into account SQ questions), game knows from windows that it should give 5.1 sound and gives that sound depending on what game sound engine capable of. And all games for about 5 years or something use no more hardware acceleration, no more effects like EAX and so on.
  
 If You use headphones for games than Creative gives you SBX surround, ASUS dolby headphone, this takes sound that games outputs and dowmixes it to stereo, giving  You virtual surround when in headphones, and now the feel of surround depends on both game engine and headphone surround technology. 
  
 So if we don't take sound quality into account, not a big advantage if You don't use headphones.


----------



## Manel

helmutcheese said:


> The card does DDL if the speakers do not have digital connections that is not down to the card.
> 
> DTS connect should be same end result as DTS as it converts any audio into 5.1 so I assume if its 5.1 to start with it be fine but it will upmix stereo to 5.1.
> 
> ...


 
  
 These are a new revision of the original S550 speakers, named S550 Encore (http://www.edifier-international.com/products/edifier-multimedia/s550-encore). Too bad Edifier chose not to include a digital circuit in the set. 
   
 Quote:


noonelt said:


> Hi,
> 
> ZxR support DDL and DTS connect (http://www.soundblaster.com/products/sound-blaster-zx.aspx#specs) other than this will need software decoding by your movie player. Also check specs for output, it has Front/Back/Center 5.1 output, so no worries, but You won't need it if You plan to use headphones. And DDL, DTSC used to pass via digital out forward (not decode DD/DTS), so again with headphones You won't be using it.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks for your answer. Most of the entries on Google about the cracking problem of some Sennheiser headphone models refer back to 2010/2011. I don't know if they got rid of this issue completely though, but I am very careful with my material.
  
 Regarding the DDL and DTS-Connect on ZxR part, suppose I have a 1080p Blu-Ray rip in mkv format with the audio track encoded in Dolby Digital 5.1. If the ZxR can't do the decoding and as the Encore S550s only have analog inputs, then what kind of 5.1 surround sound will I get? Only the one emulated by the card? Are the original surround sound effects lost in the process?
  
 I don't know if I'm misunderstanding things though. I can always download a player that does the decoding thing too, right? Is this an effective solution?
 Because of this I'm seriously considering buying an AVR and a pair of passive speakers instead of the Encore S550s.
  
 For games on PC, there doesn't seem to be a problem, because, as far as I know, the sound on most games comes pre-separated in the various channels.
  
 I also wanna hook up the speakers to my PS3 through the optical-in port in the ZxR daughter board, but then again, I won't be able to retain the "real" 5.1 surround sound of games too.     
   
 Quote:


benbenkr said:


> Sigh.
> 
> When will people stop with this mis-information? The cracking issue has been long, long, long fixed. Those cracking issues only happened for the first 2 batch models and has been fixed since late 2010/early 2011.
> There are no more cracking issues on the HD598 (and HD558 since we're on this topic).


 
  
 Good to hear that. I will buy the HD598.


----------



## NoOneLt

manel said:


> Regarding the DDL and DTS-Connect on ZxR part, suppose I have a 1080p Blu-Ray rip in mkv format with the audio track encoded in Dolby Digital 5.1. If the ZxR can't do the decoding and as the Encore S550s only have analog inputs, then what kind of 5.1 surround sound will I get? Only the one emulated by the card? Are the original surround sound effects lost in the process?
> 
> I don't know if I'm misunderstanding things though. I can always download a player that does the decoding thing too, right? Is this an effective solution?


 
 Hi, it is not a problem, player will do the decoding, You will need to turn off all effects on ZxR and then set player to output 5.1 to speakers, this should keep all effects in their place.
  
 Missed the idea of connecting PS3 to the daughterboard? You want to pass signal from PS3 to Encore through ZxR? Don't PS3 have some analog output? If it don't then it should be possible, though i never tried something like this, You should be able to use ZxR optical In, set "Listen To your device" in it's setup to ZxR speakers and hear Your PS3. I'am just not sure what sound format PS3 outputs, LPCM or Dolby, etc. So i'am just guessing. 
  
 But You can also consider buying AVR +2 speakers, and then get 3.1 after some time, after lot of years watching movies PC>TV i came up buying standalone player that can play from network, much more convenient.  Now it is like Player>AVR>TV, and headphones for gaming/music.


----------



## Manel

Ok, good, no problem in movies then.
  
 As to the PS3 issue, you can't get 5.1 analog out of the console, so my idea was to pass the signal through the optical-In port on the ZxR daughterboard. I think PS3 can output Dolby Digital Live or DTS 5.1 and 2.0 PCM. As the ZxR doesn't support real-time decoding, then I think I can only pass the signal in 2.0 PCM, losing the real 5.1. I wonder if I can emulate surround sound through the card, I think so, but it shouldn't be the same thing. One disadvantage though is that my computer will have to be on all the time, for me to hear sound from the console through the Encore S550s.
  
 I'm also considering buying an AVR (maybe a Pioneer, what you have in your sig or the 923) and a set of two front speakers for now, but then I think I'll be missing the high-quality DACs in the ZxR. I'm really in a dilemma here. Do I really need a 5.1 speaker setup for games (that will be the main task of my future PC)?


----------



## NoOneLt

Yeah, the problem is You wan't to mix many things  So You should decide what is the main thing You need from set-up. What could be acceptable as it seems to me:
  
 1. Get the AVR + 2 speakers, and again why would You need 7.2 receiver if You plan go 2 speakers? Something like 5.1 RX-V475 (just an example not recommendation) if You don't plan to go 7.2 in near future. Then You can connect both PC both PS3 to it, of course without 5.1 speakers it won't give You true surround so You need to live with 2.0 until You get additional speakers.
 2. If the main activity on PC is games i don't think You rally need ZxR, of course it has better hardware, maybe sound better with music, but only for games it could be overkill.. You can get Z/Zx they have same features in gaming, and even optical in for PS3 (here i believe it wont' work if PS3 outputs DD or DTS, PCM should be accepted but do You need such complicated set-up?).
  
 It would be easier if You would use headphones for gaming, then recommendation would be something like Astro Mixamp for PS3 and Z/Zx for PC.
  
 For movies of course AVR+5.1 is the best solution, all that PC speaker sets is not as good as they could seem to be


----------



## Manel

Thank you for your insight. You've made things much clearer for me.  I'm still getting a Xonar Essence STX or a ZxR though, because I'll use headphones for music too.

I heard that ZxR has an output impedance on the headphone jack of the order of 40 ohm, whereas STX has only a 10 ohm output impedance. Is this true? Can this potentially negatively affect SQ on low impedance cans like the HD598s? Will it cause sound distortion?


----------



## NoOneLt

Hi,
  
 From product spec:
 ZxR - "600 Ohm Amplified Headphone Output:80mw TI TPA6120"
 ASUS - "Built-in headphone amp drives every available headphone with <0.001% distortion"
  
ASUS not so specific but i think by saying "every available" they mean to say up to 600 Ohm. Lower impedance headphones are "easier to drive", sennheser have explanation here http://shop.sennheiserindia.com/blog/impedance-in-headphones/. This should not give You any SQ problems.


----------



## Manel

Yeah, I know that, but I'm talking about the relation between the output impedance of the sound card and the nominal impedance of the headphones. I read somewhere there's a rule that says the output impedance of the Amp should be less than 1/8th the headphone impedance. Otherwise, there can be sound distortion, and the headphones may sound differently than they were originally tuned. That's what I am referring to.
  
 As far as I know, some russian hardware reviews site measured the output impedance of the ZxR as being around 40 ohm. Even STX has 10 ohm output impedance. Maybe I should pick this up instead to drive the 598s.


----------



## NoOneLt

Hi again, if to dig into it deeper, STX amp TI TPA6120A2, ZxR - TI TPA6120 as written in their page, but at TI page a cannot find TPA6120, only A2 so i believe ZxR have same amp as STX. Some forums gives the same information.
  
 Here is the datasheet for amp: http://www.ti.com/product/tpa6120a2
  
 I am really not good in physics, and i can misunderstood something, but in datasheet there is "Output resistance Open Loop 13 Ω". Also ZxR can switch between <300 and 300-600 Ohm modes, so maybe measuring in second mode would give 40. And believe STX should have same option as amp hardware is the same.
  
 And if You would like to keep up with 1:8 rule then You should consider ~80Ohm headphones, but i believe You will be totally fine with 598, i don't think we could notice audible difference if there any in this case


----------



## germanium

noonelt said:


> Hi again, if to dig into it deeper, STX amp TI TPA6120A2, ZxR - TI TPA6120 as written in their page, but at TI page a cannot find TPA6120, only A2 so i believe ZxR have same amp as STX. Some forums gives the same information.
> 
> Here is the datasheet for amp: http://www.ti.com/product/tpa6120a2
> 
> ...


 

 Open loop refers to running without overall loop feedback which nobody would dare do with these amps. Output impedance is much lower with overall loop feedback, however 10 ohms resistor needs to be added to maintain stability of the amp & protect against shorts so you will almost always see at least 10ohms output impedance wherever these amp chips are used. This is not the output impedance of the amp itself though which is much lower.


----------



## NoOneLt

germanium said:


> Open loop refers to running without overall loop feedback which nobody would dare do with these amps. Output impedance is much lower with overall loop feedback, however 10 ohms resistor needs to be added to maintain stability of the amp & protect against shorts so you will almost always see at least 10ohms output impedance wherever these amp chips are used. This is not the output impedance of the amp itself though which is much lower.


 
  
 Hi, @germanium, maybe You can clear things out a bit about impedance of ZxR and SQ @manel is worried about, i am also confused, should it be the thing to worry about, ant that 1:8 rule?


----------



## germanium

noonelt said:


> Hi, @germanium
> , maybe You can clear things out a bit about impedance of ZxR and SQ @manel is worried about, i am also confused, should it be the thing to worry about, ant that 1:8 rule?




While output impedance can be an issue with some phones some phones have sufficient physical damping attached to the back side of the driver that output impedance of th amp is of very little consequence. 

 I'm not one of those people who say you must always have zero output impedance as it simply is not true. Back in the earlier days of my hobby I noticed that many receivers had very high output impedances of 400-500ohm & many of the phones sounded fine even at that high output impedance. It's not a one size fits all type situation as some people here assume needs to be the case. 10 ohms is sufficiently low output impedance for many though not all phones.

Note I have not measured the output impedance of the headphone amp nor have I tried to trace the output circuit. You can not simply measure it by put in an ohm meter on the output with the amp on as D.C. offset will throw off your measurement.


----------



## sicbud

Hello Everyone,
  
 First of all, I'm new to this whole audiophile thing (and god is it expensive and confusing).  I've read almost this entire thread (wow, what a read).  I'm looking at the best possible solution for music and games (but don't want to spend an arm and a leg).  
  
 I'm currently using a pair of HE-400's (35 Ohm impedance), and from what I gather reading this thread, the best solution would be to purchase a NFB-11.32/NFB-15.32 and a regular SBZ.  I'd then want to use the optical port on the SBZ to the optical-in port on the NFB.  Is this correct?
  
 Does anyone know the difference between the NFB-11.32 and the NFB-15.32?  The audio-gd website is kinda confusing in the way it is setup and the only difference I saw was that one has a Sabre ES9018 chip while the other one uses dual WM8741 Chips, but I honestly don't know the difference (like I said I a noob).
  
 Would I still be able to use the USB on the NFB devices (when I'm at a different computer that doesn't have the SBZ)?  I know I wouldn't get surround or anything, but someone earlier said that there is a big potential for interference or something.
  
 The audio-gd website does list an upgrade "There are two TCXO can for upgrade, one is the 12MHz for the USB interface, another is 80MHz for the ES9018"  I have no idea what that means, or what it would help, but is the upgrade worth it?
  
 I'm coming from an ASUS Xonar STX, but it won't be in the new computer due to it being PCI and the fact that I don't really like the drivers and the gaming features of the card.
  
 Any insight is appreciated.
  
 Thanks!


----------



## SEALBoy

sicbud said:


> Hello Everyone,
> 
> First of all, I'm new to this whole audiophile thing (and god is it expensive and confusing).  I've read almost this entire thread (wow, what a read).  I'm looking at the best possible solution for music and games (but don't want to spend an arm and a leg).
> 
> ...


 
 I know this is an audiophile forums, but honestly, you don't need to buy an external DAC/amp.
  
 I also have HE-400's that I use with a Sound Blaster Z for music and games. It sounds great. The SBZ does virtual surround for gaming which actually works pretty well with the HE-400.
  
 The amp on the SBZ is more than capable of driving the HE-400.
  
 If you have $300 to spend on a DAC/amp when you already have an SBZ, invest those in better headphones. Your greatest leap in quality will be in stepping up to an HE-500 or similar headphones, not a DAC/amp.


----------



## sicbud

Thanks for your reply.  One of the reasons for the DAC/amp was so that I could use it on other computers and would also be able to use it with consoles.  I could invest in a new pair of headphones, but I just purchased the HE-400's, seriously, like 2 weeks ago. Lol.


----------



## SaLX

> I'm currently using a pair of HE-400's (35 Ohm impedance), and from what I gather reading this thread, the best solution would be to purchase a NFB-11.32/NFB-15.32 and a regular SBZ.  I'd then want to use the optical port on the SBZ to the optical-in port on the NFB.  Is this correct?
> 
> *SBZ with optical out works perfectly with the Audio_gd's.*
> 
> ...


 
  
 As Sealboy says though.. you'll probably get away with using the SBZ with it's built in amp. The HE400 doesn't need a lot of juice. Also MLE pointed out in his review that a portable amp is all you need. I'd say, in the end, just get the SBZ and see how you feel about it, then add the Audio_gd later (like me) or initially get a moar expensive ZxR and be done with it.


----------



## SEALBoy

sicbud said:


> Thanks for your reply.  One of the reasons for the DAC/amp was so that I could use it on other computers and would also be able to use it with consoles.  I could invest in a new pair of headphones, but I just purchased the HE-400's, seriously, like 2 weeks ago. Lol.


 
 Unless your DAC can decode Dolby Digital/DTS and create virtual surround sound, you won't get surround sound through your SBZ optical out because it simply encodes the surround sound signal and passes it through. The SBZ is effectively removed from the equation (apart from its role as an encoder), so you might be better off just getting a USB DAC/amp instead of paying for one with an optical input.


----------



## SaLX

Oh dear SeaLBoy.. you are _completely_ wrong. You have given terrible advice there. My external DAC/Amp get's the premixed PCM signal that's been mixed by the SBZ that sends it via optical/SPDIF. What I hear is true surround, and I get to utilise fully all the aspects of the SBZ's control panel.
  
 **Edit** I'd ask this on Mad Lust Envy's thread regarding consoles and external DAC's.


----------



## SEALBoy

salx said:


> Oh dear SeaLBoy.. you are _completely_ wrong. You have given terrible advice there. My external DAC/Amp get's the premixed PCM signal that's been mixed by the SBZ that sends it via optical/SPDIF. What I hear is true surround, and I get to utilise fully all the aspects of the SBZ's control panel.
> 
> **Edit** I'd ask this on Mad Lust Envy's thread regarding consoles and external DAC's.


 
 Hmm, you might be right. In your case the virtual surround would be through SBX Pro Studio, not Dolby Digital/DTS.
  
 However, I still stand by my initial statement that he is wasting money on a DAC with optical input. He gains very little from outputting via optical vs. just using the onboard DAC, and getting a superior USB-only DAC/amp for his other computer.


----------



## sicbud

Thanks for both of your replies.  I think I'll go with the SBZ first as you suggested, SaLX and go from there.  I realize the HE's don't require a lot of power, but I can confirm they sound a lot better with the extra gain, at least that's the case with my STX.  When I set the gain to high, the headphones come alive, and sound even better when I set it to extra high gain.
  
 The other thing that worries me with just using the SBZ is that people here were complaining about issues with low impedance headphones which the HE-400's are.
  
 The issue with a USB DAC/amp is that it won't work with consoles (at least as far as I know).  I realize I wouldn't be getting surround sound on that, but stereo headphones would still be better than nothing.
  
 I guess the alternate would be to buy my buddies H-Wireless headset off him for $100 ($300 value) and use that for consoles.  That would work Consoles and would provide surround sound, but I can't image the quality of those headphones would be anywhere near the quality of the HE-400's.


----------



## NoOneLt

sicbud said:


> Thanks for both of your replies.  I think I'll go with the SBZ first as you suggested, SaLX and go from there.  I realize the HE's don't require a lot of power, but I can confirm they sound a lot better with the extra gain, at least that's the case with my STX.  When I set the gain to high, the headphones come alive, and sound even better when I set it to extra high gain.


 
 Hello,
  
 Have anyone tried setting 600Ohm output on ZxR using low impedance headphones (30-300)? Any sound difference/improvement? I'am afraid to damage headphones so always keep that setting <300 as warning says


----------



## germanium

noonelt said:


> Hello,
> 
> Have anyone tried setting 600Ohm output on ZxR using low impedance headphones (30-300)? Any sound difference/improvement? I'am afraid to damage headphones so always keep that setting <300 as warning says


 
 if you match the volumes between the 2 gain options there is little difference in quality. unlike the Asus STX the different gain levels do appear to be set in hardware as there is a click in the relay during gain changes. Current feedback amp are little affected by gain changes & there frequency response will be flat to oblivion no matter what gain you choose


----------



## MaxKohler

Wow, I just received my ZXR today and completely agree with the guy saying it's ****.
  
 I'm using CS 1.6 for testing because CSGO sound is awful. I've been playing 1.6 for 8+ years with an xfi extreme gamer, AD700's, Alchemy, 5.1 on windows, and headphones on SB control panel. I also turn the bass on windows to minimum and raise the treble a bit.
  
 I tried the ZXR at first with the same settings and "surround" checked under "SBX pro studio" tab and the sound was terrible. I have bass on 0%, Crossover Frequency on 700. Unchecking "Bass" is terrible (ridiculously strong bass). Smart Volume and Dialog Plus are unchecked. Scout mode off, EQ off.
  
 I tried setting windows to stereo instead of 5.1 but didn't see a difference. I unchecked "surround" and it sounded a bit better. I was about to uninstall and remove the card and figured I'd try without alchemy and with "surround" checked.
  
 I guess Alchemy is no longer needed with this card because without alchemy it sounds a lot better. But still this is definitely a downgrade from the now $50 extreme gamer card.
 Sound is more muffled rather than crisp (even with crystallizer on), distance is not as obvious, and front vs behind is even worse.
 With "SBX Pro Studio" power button deactivated, and with or without Alchemy, the sound is still bad. The bass is also so strong under this setting that it hurts my ears even when my volume is so low that I can only just hear other ingame sounds.
  
 I also tried moving the "Surround" slider back and forth, but anything other than default just sounds strange.
  
 The mic on the ACM can be set to not pickup loud noise (in mumble with voice activity – amplitude) from a keyboard (cherry brown) that is right next to it, but everyone tells me the quality is horrible. I have "noise reduction" checked because otherwise there is a loud static sound. "Acoustic echo cancelation", "FX", and "Smart Volume" are unchecked. "Focus" is set to minimum.
  
 I will keep the card in for a couple of days to see if anyone has any suggestions for me to try.
  
 Oh, I'm also using the driver that was on the CD. I didn't upgrade to the win8.1 driver as I'm on win7 x64.


----------



## NoOneLt

ACM mic is BS really  And if You connecting headphones to ACM You could try to connect it directly into card? And check SQ then? And how it sound in music to Your ears?
  
 Still You should try wipe out all drivers and use latest one from the support page. Also check headphone gain setting. And bass, with my set up i never felt too-much bass, maybe even bit lack of bass. Still drivers is the only option that could change something if You walked through set-up and nothing helped. 
  
 And maybe some cards are really broken? As it seems strange that some people have huge problem and other does not. And it is not like "i hoped it would sound better" but "horrible" it really seems that hardware could be the problem.


----------



## Radical_53

@max: Sounds like you've gotten used to crapty sound and now you want to reproduce it. Guess that doesn't work out. Just get rid of the card and use your old one.
  
 Why did you want to exchange it in the first place? And what's the trick behind using headphones with light bass *and* a very low bass setting in Windows? "Pro" gamer stuff?  Maybe scout mode is something for you then.


----------



## NCSUZoSo

One thing I have noticed from playing with SBX Surround on my 5.1 setup is that when you go between 38% and 42% there is a huge change in the speaker levels.  Once you pass 40% and further you are pulling a lot of the sound to the center channel and to me this make it useless even though I own a $400 center channel speaker I don't want it all out of the center.  So I run around 38% and I get good ambience from the center channel, but my stereo and surround are all still playing semi-equal roles.


----------



## MaxKohler

Gain is Normal/default (32/300 ohm). I have both my speakers and headphones connected directly to the card. I'm only using the mic on the ACM.
  
 On music/video I would agree with you that it seems to lack bass. The bass settings for this card seem really subpar. You cannot adjust bass & treble through the Windows 7 audio control panel, and the bass adjustments in the creative control panel don't get me near as good sounding bass as my xfi extremegamer card did with the addition of the Window's bass control.
  
 Music/video sounds just "ok". Even this was better on my xtremegamer though.
  
 It could possibly be a hardware issue but I don't know if I'd want to bother RMAing it when there are no errors or other signs of the card being defective besides subpar sound.
 I will try updating the driver I suppose.
  
  


> _Sounds like you've gotten used to crapty sound and now you want to reproduce it._


 
 I don't think that's the case. If something sounds better you should be able to tell. I played with onboard sound for a long time and could clearly tell that the xtremegamer soundcard was a huge upgrade.
  
  


> Why did you want to exchange it in the first place?


 
 Just upgrading my system. Xtremegamer is an old card so I figured this new one that costs 4x the price should be a decent upgrade. I'm also planning on upgrading from ad700's to the q701 and I read good stuff about the q701 & zxr combo.
 I was also interested in the crystal voice abilities to block out noise when using speakers as well as the beam forming setting to block out keyboard noise when using voice detection.
  
  


> And what's the trick behind using headphones with light bass *and* a very low bass setting in Windows? "Pro" gamer stuff?


 
 Yeah. If you're looking for immersion in a single player game I wouldn't lower the bass. But CS 1.6 is/was an esports game and footstep clarity is dampened when you leave the bass at default/medium.
 I actually noticed that in CSGO bass enhances the audio and doesn't seem to have as much of a detrimental effect to positional audio as it does in 1.6, so I'd actually put the bass back to medium for CSGO.


----------



## Radical_53

As I said, try out scout mode. Sounds like it's for you. Maybe you should even try the Crystalizer for music. Maybe you'll find the old card's signature there somewhere.
  
 I never change EQ or gamma to play competitively. More fun to play with "straight" sound, just like normal "rich" graphics.


----------



## Radical_53

A built-in amp is less hassle and, supposedly, the better bang for the buck. It also keeps you from upgrading your amp every now and then


----------



## MaxKohler

noonelt said:


> I am starting to think there are several trolls that show up under different nicks with no post history and blame ZxR for all sins in the world and being worse upgrade ever )


 
  
 https://www.youtube.com/user/IamMaximilianKohler
  
 This is me. I'm not a random "troll" account.
  
 Like I said, I'm leaving in the card for a few days in case anyone has any suggestions for me to try. But currently this card seems to be a major downgrade from my xfi extremegamer when it comes to surround sound in games when using headphones.


----------



## helmutcheese

You need to take time to mess with the card, I was unhappy with mines at start.
  
 Its different and not better in all respects than the X-Fi and EAX 3DSound etc.
  
 The way you have came across in your OP here and on about 4 other sites (exact same post) is the problem.
  
 And the guy who calls anyone who does not like the card a Troll above can be ignored as I have set him to.
  
 This site has a few helpful peeps but come across a bit better to be taken seriously.


----------



## SaLX

You are all welcome to this thread. I, for one am out. I've helped people and_ _that was because others had helped me, so in turn I did the same: _ please note that they were considerate, knowledgeable and helpful._ Please do the same. It's called quality control.
  
 Me? I'm uber happy with my gear. Torch is yours guys... don't fumble it. Cya cheesies.......Byeeeeeeeeeeee.
  
_**Edit** : Do a search .. everything you need to know is contained in this thread._


----------



## NoOneLt

maxkohler said:


> https://www.youtube.com/user/IamMaximilianKohler
> 
> This is me. I'm not a random "troll" account.
> 
> Like I said, I'm leaving in the card for a few days in case anyone has any suggestions for me to try. But currently this card seems to be a major downgrade from my xfi extremegamer when it comes to surround sound in games when using headphones.


 
 You should call it different, CMSS-3D in X-Fi and SBX surround is different techs. and different people like it different, same with DolbyHeadphone. It can't be compared directly as it can not be measured. 
  
 Check several pages back, there one guy have link to comparison of different surround modes.Try to listen to recordings.
  
 And what You can try with headphones:
 1. Latest drivers and wipe out old ones.
 2. CS seems not to use any EAX so don't bother with alchemy ans stuff.
 3. While in Pro Studio You have headphones, check windows settings, speaker should be set to 5.1 (check this in game too if there is option)
 4. Turn off every encasement then try to play with surround slider set to different values.
 5. You can also try to use scout mode in addition as it seems hardcore gaming is a goal.
 6. Then You can try to play with EQ not bass settings to get bass/treble the way You want.
  
 UPDATE: This will make no use according to posts below, as seems CS do not support surround sound, so no use of SBX surround then, as it brings multichannel from game/movie to headphones as stereo signal but makes it sound as virtual surround


----------



## SoFGR

^ 
  
 this 
  
 goldsrc has no EAX and quadraphonic  support for over a year now, they screwed up their own engine back in february 2013, where have you been man ??


----------



## NoOneLt

Hmm, googled some after @SoFGR post, found this http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3078555, i can't find exact information what sound output GoldSource can provide, but if it is stereo only then turning SBX surround will definately will make it sound worse.
 Don't know why they (in the link) write that with EAX quadraphonic is gone, as EAX don't do surround, only effects, but if in addition quadraphonic is gone so no true surround can be found here. Best You can try then is to turn off surround and turn on scout mode, it should bring footsteps sound in front of other if it works correctly (i don't use it, and believe same can be achieved wit EQ) but i'am mostly casual BF4 and other FPS player and turning surround to 50% and if game engine is capable of outputting 5.1 sound make headphone surround quiet good.


----------



## MaxKohler

Guys, to clarify:
  
 It sounds better with SBX surround on.
  
 With my xtremegamer the game sounds better with Alchemy enabled.
  
 With the ZXR it sounds better without Alchemy.
  
 There is noticeable improvement with the ZXR if I uncheck "bass", and use the EQ to reduce the bass instead.
  


> goldsrc has no EAX and quadraphonic  support for over a year now, they screwed up their own engine back in february 2013, where have you been man ??


 
 I followed those updates they did last year, but it didn't effect my sound at all. EAX was always buggy anyway and I didn't use it ingame.
  
  
*Hmm, my sound is just randomly dying till I restart my computer*... so maybe there is something wrong with my card. I'll try the new driver.


----------



## NoOneLt

> *Hmm, my sound is just randomly dying till I restart my computer*... so maybe there is something wrong with my card. I'll try the new driver.


 
 Had some weird situations, windows didn't detected card on start-up sometimes with card when inserted it into PCI-E X8 that is shared with PCI-E X16 for sli/crossfire, moved card to "normal" X1 slot and problems gone.
  


> Guys, to clarify:
> 
> It sounds better with SBX surround on.


 
 But then it can be not so accurate, because if game outputs only two channels what SBX do is just try to artificially virtualize them (this can ruin positioning game try to give you), like music, when you listen to music with surround it does sound different/weird.


----------



## germanium

noonelt said:


> Had some weird situations, windows didn't detected card on start-up sometimes with card when inserted it into PCI-E X8 that is shared with PCI-E X16 for sli/crossfire, moved card to "normal" X1 slot and problems gone.
> 
> But then it can be not so accurate, because if game outputs only two channels what SBX do is just try to artificially virtualize them (this can ruin positioning game try to give you), like music, when you listen to music with surround it does sound different/weird.


 

 What do you think of the sound so far stock?


----------



## MaxKohler

Holy ****. After updating the driver, instead of sound dying I just experienced a super loud metallic static noise that is still there even after muting sound via Windows icon. I hope it didn't cause permanent damage to my ears .__.
  
 I had it in a PCIe x1 slot already, but I uninstalled it and put it in another one because I think one of the little metal spokes on the backside of the card might have been touching or really close to the motherboard's heatsink.
  
 No improvements to audio though and it just cut out again, so I guess I'll RMA it. Anyone know whether Newegg or Creative pay return shipping like Amazon does?


----------



## Aussiejuggalo

How do you guys think these cards compare to the Xonar range?

I see a lot of you are having problems either with drivers or the cards themselves :eek:...


----------



## germanium

aussiejuggalo said:


> How do you guys think these cards compare to the Xonar range?
> 
> I see a lot of you are having problems either with drivers or the cards themselves
> 
> ...


 

 Stock slightly worse than the STX but with better potential with modification. Software for me lags a lot but does seem to work ok
  Asus software better in that regard.


----------



## NCSUZoSo

Software doesn't lag for me at all, but I do have it on a Samsung 840 Pro


----------



## Aussiejuggalo

germanium said:


> Stock slightly worse than the STX but with better potential with modification. Software for me lags a lot but does seem to work ok
> Asus software better in that regard.




Ah ok, suppose at least it has room for mods. Software lag shouldnt be an issue for me, full SSD in my rig 

Asus software kinda sucks... lol 

How do these new cards go for gaming as compared to the Titanium HD? hows the virtual surround, positioning etc?


----------



## NoOneLt

germanium said:


> Stock slightly worse than the STX but with better potential with modification. Software for me lags a lot but does seem to work ok
> Asus software better in that regard.


 
  
 Hi, software seems to run fine for me, i run Win 8.1 with SSD cached drive.


germanium said:


> What do you think of the sound so far stock?


 
 It is really hard to tell as  don't have much to compare to, but as my ears remember it sounds better than X-Fi titanium i had, easier to listen on higher volumes.


----------



## germanium

noonelt said:


> Hi, software seems to run fine for me, i run Win 8.1 with SSD cached drive.
> It is really hard to tell as  don't have much to compare to, but as my ears remember it sounds better than X-Fi titanium i had, easier to listen on higher volumes.


 
 I'm actually running 2 SSD's in raid 0, The lag I'm talking of is obviously due to built in timers. My computer is quite fast so it is just relative to everything else that it lags to me.


----------



## germanium

aussiejuggalo said:


> Ah ok, suppose at least it has room for mods. Software lag shouldnt be an issue for me, full SSD in my rig
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Sorry I don't do gaming myself so strictly for entertainment here. 2 SSD's in raid 0 here.


----------



## NoOneLt

germanium said:


> I'm actually running 2 SSD's in raid 0, The lag I'm talking of is obviously due to built in timers. My computer is quite fast so it is just relative to everything else that it lags to me.


 
 Maybe they intended to make it "smooth" or something like this, but it seems that all menu opens as should (without random slowdowns) maybe with some default delay.


----------



## NCSUZoSo

germanium, are you running the original drivers/software from when you got the card or the updated ones?


----------



## germanium

ncsuzoso said:


> germanium, are you running the original drivers/software from when you got the card or the updated ones?




Updated. Never installed original drivers from disc that came with card. I also noticed now that the lag only occurs when I open it for the fist time after reboot but not afterwards.


----------



## NCSUZoSo

Well yea I knew you probably didn't use the disk, but there was a big driver/software update from when I installed the drivers off Creative's site and now.
  
  
 BTW, I am still going to be doing the cap mod to the ZXR, I actually just ordered 6 of these (they got the upgraded caps back in stock, the PulseX in 250V instead of 400V).
  
 http://www.erseaudio.com/MPX25-03-12-00
  

  


> ERSE’s Pulse X caps are a premium audiophile grade capacitor designed for quick transient response and ultimate musical performance. Total harmonic and IMD distortion and phase distortion are virtually immeasurable, while all losses are near zero in every aspect. PulseX caps will allow your music to be accurate and uncolored in every way.


 
  
  
  
 _


----------



## NoOneLt

ncsuzoso said:


> BTW, I am still going to be doing the cap mod to the ZXR, I actually just ordered 6 of these (they got the upgraded caps back in stock, the PulseX in 250V instead of 400V).


 
 Hey, it would be nice You could share Your experience with upgrade here http://www.head-fi.org/t/705284/germaniums-sound-blaster-zxr-mod-thread I also want to mod ZxR but every-time something happens and keeps me off it.


----------



## hakka

Could someone who owns the ZXR measure the length for me please. Just trying to work out if it will block the fan on my graphics card.
  
 Thanks.


----------



## MaxKohler

hakka said:


> Could someone who owns the ZXR measure the length for me please. Just trying to work out if it will block the fan on my graphics card.
> 
> Thanks.


 
 16.5cm
 6 1/4th inch


----------



## hakka

Thanks Max.


----------



## MaxKohler

Ok, I agree that for music/videos the ZXR is noticeably better. The xtremegamer sounds more dull and ZXR more pronounced. But the surround sound in games seems to be much worse. It's not great in 1.6, and in CS:S it's even worse. People with crappy/no sound cards can tell where people are better than me (IE: planting lower rather than upper) while spectating me, so we were both getting the same sounds.
  
 This might be due to their SBX surround sound not being compatible with hardware acceleration that Alchemy provides. IE: with my xtremegamer I use both Alchemy & CMSS 3D. But like other people mentioned SBX surround sound gets automatically turned off when I use Alchemy with this card.
 If their idea was to build in the Alchemy hardware acceleration to the SBX surround sound so that you don't have to configure Alchemy for every game then that's really cool. But it's just not providing the same level of surround sound.
  
 RMA'd my card and still having the same problem with it randomly dying in CS 1.6 till I restart.
  
 Creative support's reply was:
 "_It is possible for the sound card to go dead if there is a driver conflict between the game and the sound card. We regret to inform you that Creative sound card cannot guarantee that our sound card will work with all games and software applications._"
  
 CS 1.6 is one of the most popular games of all time, and one of the most popular esports games till recently. Seems like that is their target demographic.
  
 But w/e. I'm not really impressed with the card as a whole anyway. There were times (not in games) where I took my headphones off to check if the sound was coming from my speakers because it was so realistic. But sadly that was a rare occasion and not a standard.
  
 Sucks that I'm going to have to keep digging around in the back of my computer every time I want to switch from headphones to speakers, until a new sound card gets released.


----------



## hakka

Just got my ZXR installed, also picked up a pair of Audio Technica ADG1s. Played a few rounds of BF4, positional audio is excellent, as is overall sound quality.
  
 After reading through this thread I'm not running the headphones through the ACM, but the mic is going through it for now because I'm short one 1/4 inch adapter. You'd think a $280 headset would include some adapters.
  
 I saw it mentioned a few times that the ACM works the same as the one in the Phoebus, just to clarify - the Phoebus volume control actually changes the windows volume setting, it has a third cable running between the ACM and the soundcard for this.


----------



## NCSUZoSo

I removed my ACM to fit my Aune T1, but I am pretty sure the ACM volume does nothing in Windows unless you have headphones hooked up.  I could be wrong on that though.


----------



## hakka

Just checked it, yep you're right - only works if there's HPs connected.


----------



## MaxKohler

You can unscrew the plug off the end of the ACM and screw it on to your mic.


----------



## TwoEars

Well... I just wanted to say that I just upgraded from the Titanium HD to ZXR.
  
 I was wondering a bit if it was worth it but damn... yes it was. Zero regrets.
  
 People can say what they want about sound cards not being needed for games anymore because EAX is a dead and what not.... whatever Creative is doing it's working!
  
 Hands down the best surround sound positioning audio I've ever heard in my games.
  
 I also had zero driver issues and the overall quality and packaging was very well done.
  
 Perhaps that serial cable between the cards isn't so fancy, couldn't they at least have made it a round cable? Oh well. It's a very minor niggle.
  
 Overall a happy camper


----------



## MaxKohler

TwoEars, what games do you play?


----------



## TwoEars

maxkohler said:


> TwoEars, what games do you play?


 
  
 Mostly RPG's. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I'm doing a lot of Skyrim modding right now... so many great mods at the nexus!!!


----------



## NCSUZoSo

Film Cap Mod:
  

  
 and I decided before I put capacitors on the back of the card that I should get a pic of my final op-amp setup.


----------



## Manel

Hi,
  
 Does the ZxR sound card keep up with the HD650s? Does someone in here have this combo? If so, how does it perform in music and games?
  
 I almost pulled the trigger on the HD598s for ~170€. Now I can get the HD650s used (bought from Amazon last December) for "only" 250€. 
  
 Cumps


----------



## TwoEars

manel said:


> Hi,
> 
> Does the ZxR sound card keep up with the HD650s? Does someone in here have this combo? If so, how does it perform in music and games?
> 
> ...


 
  
 You're in luck.
  
 The ZxR has zero problems driving the HD650's.
  
 It's a great combo, I would say go for it. Just remember that for music listening it's usually best to disable all the gaming features.


----------



## Manel

Thanks for your input.  Yeah, I don't want anything colouring the sound when listening to music, just the raw stereo sound, plain and simple.
  
 But can the SBX Pro Studio and the other gaming features on the card improve the quality of the HD650s in gaming, soundstage and directionality wise? I'm asking this because, according to Mad Lust Envy's thread, these are only decent at gaming.


----------



## alv4426

I never got to try my old HD650 with the zxr but my current HD580 is driven very easily by it and it sounds very good.
 I will say that 2 of the 3 "gaming features" (the surround sound and bass boost) buttons) sound not that great (surround sound) to terrible (bass boost) with open headphones Ive tried... Well the bass boost is horrible with everything Ive tried. That surround sound is actually very noticeable and a good feature with closed headphones Ive tried. I like the 3rd function which I forget the name of that boosts clarity or something like that. YMMV


----------



## Manel

Thanks.
 Yeah, I think I know what you're talking about there, but I also can't remember the name of it.


----------



## TwoEars

manel said:


> Thanks for your input.  Yeah, I don't want anything colouring the sound when listening to music, just the raw stereo sound, plain and simple.
> 
> But can the SBX Pro Studio and the other gaming features on the card improve the quality of the HD650s in gaming, soundstage and directionality wise? I'm asking this because, according to Mad Lust Envy's thread, these are only decent at gaming.


 
  
 They are fantastic at soundstage and direction!
  
 The only reason why anyone would write that they aren't is because in general you have an easier time pinpointing bright sounds than darker tones. So bright headphones tend to be labeled "good gaming headphones". Which is a gross oversimplification, and don't forget there's always EQ. Not that the HD650 needs it.
  
 Just buy them, you're not going to find anything better for music and gaming for that money.


----------



## Manel

Thanks again for your insight! 
  
 One more thing, that person who is selling me the HD650s also has the HD598s for sale for 125€ (bought from Amazon last October). I arranged an audition of the two headphones with him, and he says that if both end up pleasing my ears and I get both from him, he will make me a "nice discount", his words. By the way, both headphones come with aftermarket cables, don't know if they're better than the stock or not though. The one that comes with the HD650s is a 1.2m Furukawa.
  
 My question is: would I get any benefit from buying the HD598s too? I know they are technically inferior, but can they compensate for the laid back treble in the HD650s? Would their airier sound and larger soundstage (?) give me an advantage in gaming over the HD650s?
 Then there's the low impedance advantage. I could almost plug in the HD598s to anything, and they'd still sound pretty good, I guess.
  
 The HD600s also enter the equation, as I can get them from Amazon.fr new for about 270/280€.


----------



## TwoEars

manel said:


> Thanks again for your insight!
> 
> One more thing, that person who is selling me the HD650s also has the HD598s for sale for 125€ (bought from Amazon last October). I arranged an audition of the two headphones with him, and he says that if both end up pleasing my ears and I get both from him, he will make me a "nice discount", his words. By the way, both headphones come with aftermarket cables, don't know if they're better than the stock or not though. The one that comes with the HD650s is a 1.2m Furukawa.
> 
> ...


 
  
 They HD598's are really great and a fantastic entry level headphone, if you're only looking for positioning in your games I believe they should be more than enough really.
  
 However - if you're listening to music and also want a more immersive gaming experience the HD650 are a cut above. They have more bass and a fuller richer sound signature. So they are more enjoyable to me.
  
 The HD600 are also great and also a step above the 598s.
  
 People who like pop/rap/electronica tend to favor the HD650 while lovers of neutrality and classical usually go with HD600. But they both have a fuller more high-end hi-fi sound than the 598's.
  
 If you're only going to buy one pair of headphones and want a strong focus on gaming positioning audio the HD600 might be the one for you.


----------



## NCSUZoSo

Not because I am partial, but at that price range you can get the awesome SoundMAGIC HP100 or even HP200


----------



## Manel

@TwoEars
Well, I listen to a little bit of everything, from pop to rock, from metal to alternative, from blues to classical and choral.

So, if I go with the HD650s, there should be no point in getting the HD598s too according to you, right?


----------



## TwoEars

manel said:


> Well, I listen to a little bit of everything, from pop to rock, from metal to alternative, from blues to classical and choral.
> 
> So, if I go with the HD650s, there should be no point in getting the HD598s too according to you, right?


 
  
 Nope.


----------



## Manel

ncsuzoso said:


> Not because I am partial, but at that price range you can get the awesome SoundMAGIC HP100 or even HP200


 
 I didn't know about those. I think I'm gonna read some reviews about them. Are they in the same league as the HD650s? I see that they are closed, whereas the Senns are open. (mistake)
  


twoears said:


> Nope.


 
 Ok. Thanks.


----------



## vincedea

Has anyone had any issues with the ZxR not being detected? 

I just got the card and for a few weeks it has been working properly, then all of a sudden I have no sound. Creative auto update doesn't even detect the card at all and when I try to open the control panel I get a message says I don't have a supported device.

I have reinstalled the drivers and reseated the card a few times. I even went out to buy another ZxR just to see if I need to rma but it happened to that card also.

Does anyone have a fix for this? Thanks


----------



## TwoEars

vincedea said:


> Has anyone had any issues with the ZxR not being detected?
> 
> I just got the card and for a few weeks it has been working properly, then all of a sudden I have no sound. Creative auto update doesn't even detect the card at all and when I try to open the control panel I get a message says I don't have a supported device.
> 
> ...


 
  
 That sounds like a pain.
  
 Can you see if you can see the card in device manager? It should say something like soundblaster zxr.
  
 Try removing the card and do a full uninstallation of ALL drivers: http://nomoregoatsoup.wordpress.com/2007/09/12/how-to-fully-uninstall-creative-vista-drivers-solve-install-problems/
  
 It could also be a bios issue since the card is allocated a address which is stored in bios and kept for each restart. So if you're comfortable with you can try clearing the cmos and configuring the bios again. You can also simply try another pci-e slot if you have one free.


----------



## vincedea

twoears said:


> vincedea said:
> 
> 
> > Has anyone had any issues with the ZxR not being detected?
> ...




I have tried using the other slots to no avail. The card actually does not show up in device manager but I do have a sound blaster audio controller, a bunch of high def audio controllers. I have tried uninstalling those high def audio driver but it keeps on installing itself ( windows 7 issue?) 

I will try clearing CMOS and also try the fully uninstall drivers you showed me.

Anyone else have this issue? I'm using an ep45-ud3p motherboard.


----------



## TwoEars

vincedea said:


> I have tried using the other slots to no avail. The card actually does not show up in device manager but I do have a sound blaster audio controller, a bunch of high def audio controllers. I have tried uninstalling those high def audio driver but it keeps on installing itself ( windows 7 issue?)
> 
> I will try clearing CMOS and also try the fully uninstall drivers you showed me.
> 
> Anyone else have this issue? I'm using an ep45-ud3p motherboard.


 
  
 Yeah, try removing the card and then uninstalling absolutely everything audio related.
  
 While you're on the bios you can also disable the onboard audio. That should keep windows from finding and installing drivers for the motherboard audio chipset, not needed obviously.


----------



## NoOneLt

vincedea said:


> I have tried using the other slots to no avail. The card actually does not show up in device manager but I do have a sound blaster audio controller, a bunch of high def audio controllers. I have tried uninstalling those high def audio driver but it keeps on installing itself ( windows 7 issue?)
> 
> I will try clearing CMOS and also try the fully uninstall drivers you showed me.
> 
> Anyone else have this issue? I'm using an ep45-ud3p motherboard.


 
 Read here that someone had a success with connecting expansion board, even if You are not using it. But 2 faulty board seems too much, could be problem with system, try:
  
 1. Upgrade Your mobo BIOS to the latest version, don't forget to reset to factory defaults after update
 2. Disable on-boar audio, though it shouldn't be a problem
 3. Wipe all drivers. And update all system drives like Intel Chipset, video..
 4. Finally install card, use 2 PCI-E x 1 closest to CPU
  
 GL 
  
 UPD 1. Mobo BIOS not DRIVER


----------



## germanium

vincedea said:


> I have tried using the other slots to no avail. The card actually does not show up in device manager but I do have a sound blaster audio controller, a bunch of high def audio controllers. I have tried uninstalling those high def audio driver but it keeps on installing itself ( windows 7 issue?)
> 
> I will try clearing CMOS and also try the fully uninstall drivers you showed me.
> 
> Anyone else have this issue? I'm using an ep45-ud3p motherboard.


 

 I have no issues here though. I'm running Windows Seven & Windows Eight on an Asus P6T motherboard & Intel 920 processor with 24 gigabytes ram 2-80 gigabyte SSD's in hardware RAID & 2-1 Terabyte HDD's In software RAID. You are running an older setutup. You could try having your bios updated but if you have no experience with doing this have a tech do it for you. Sometimes newer bios revisions help with adding newer hardware.


----------



## IcyRhythms

What are you some good settings for this sound card coupled with the Sennheiser 598s? The equalizer has just about everything but hiphop/rap covered. That would be helpful if someone has found a good balance there. In particular with these headphones, gaming is huge for me. If someone has any suggestions other than to leave it at Flat for games I'd like to know.
  
 Also, I've read a couple of people saying NOT to upgrade to the latest drivers that released on the 22nd of January. Are they performing as poorly as some claim?


----------



## Gradius

Can Sound Blaster ZxR capture/recording 32kHz @ 24-bit using Toslink/SPDIF input ?


----------



## vincedea

noonelt said:


> Read here that someone had a success with connecting expansion board, even if You are not using it. But 2 faulty board seems too much, could be problem with system, try:
> 
> 1. Upgrade Your mobo BIOS to the latest version, don't forget to reset to factory defaults after update
> 2. Disable on-boar audio, though it shouldn't be a problem
> ...


 
  
 sigh i formatted my pc and everything was going great now im getting the same issue.  in my device manager i get a SB Recon3D PCIe and Sound Blaster Audio Controller, and everything else is the high definition audio device. i dont know why im getting this issue.  i will try the bios update next i suppose


----------



## NoOneLt

gradius said:


> Can Sound Blaster ZxR capture/recording 32kHz @ 24-bit using Toslink/SPDIF input ?


 

16-bit to 24-bit Recording Sample Rates: 8,11.025,16, 22.05, 24, 32, 44.1, 48, 96 (kHz)  
 
  
As specs. says


----------



## Fegefeuer

Audigy FX for 25€ with SBX Pro features seems to be the best entry for all those that use an external dac/amp. 
  
 The SBX Pro Studio panel looks a bit different though, check out the 3D/Stereo selection.
  

  
  
 http://www.hw-journal.de/index.php/testberichte/audio/1188-test-creative-sound-blaster-audigy-fx?start=1


----------



## Anarion

It uses Realtek ALC898 DAC/ADC. It's not necessarily a bad choice. It's likely quite a but better than Asus DG.


----------



## Fegefeuer

Yeah but with going optical out to the DAC/AMP it doesn't really matter and then it's all about the SBX Software. I'm prettys sure it's the same as our Z(xR).


----------



## Tachikoma

Question, can I use SBX processing for music listening? and if I can, how does it compare to this http://www.head-fi.org/t/555263/foobar2000-dolby-headphone-config-comment-discuss?


----------



## TwoEars

tachikoma said:


> Question, can I use SBX processing for music listening? and if I can, how does it compare to this http://www.head-fi.org/t/555263/foobar2000-dolby-headphone-config-comment-discuss?


 
  
 Yes you can and it works decent but I would recommend that dolby headphone instead, I think it works better.
  
 The way I have it setup is that I use the optical toslink out on the ZXR to my dac. So if I'm playing games I get all the soundblaster effects going out there.
  
 However - when I'm playing music I have foobar set to wasapi event and the toslink output so it bypasses all windows and sound blaster effects.
  
 It's great combo, best of both worlds without changing a single setting.


----------



## SoFGR

fegefeuer said:


> Yeah but with going optical out to the DAC/AMP it doesn't really matter and then it's all about the SBX Software. I'm prettys sure it's the same as our Z(xR).


 
 audigy FX has no optical out tho


----------



## Anarion

sofgr said:


> audigy FX has no optical out tho


Indeed.


----------



## Fegefeuer

doh, you're right. I automatically assumed it to have one. :|


----------



## Manel

I just got the HD650s and I haven't made up my mind yet regarding the amplification. I'm leaning towards ZxR as I said two pages before, but some folks keep telling me to go the external route. The problem is that I think I'll need those Sound Blaster effects for gaming and movies. Should I consider going external and get a cheap Sound Blaster Z instead to retain those gaming features?
  
 @TwoEars, you said earlier that ZxR and HD650s make a great combo and that the sound card has no problems driving the headphones. But will its Amp chip bring the HD650s closer to full potential? I see you have an external DAC connected to the card through Optical-out, so you are completely bypassing its own DAC chip and amplification.
  
 Another option I'm considering is getting now the ZxR card and later add to the chain a tube amp like Schiit Valhalla if I'm not 100% satisfied with the sound output.


----------



## Gradius

noonelt said:


> 16-bit to 24-bit Recording Sample Rates: 8,11.025,16, 22.05, 24, 32, 44.1, 48, 96 (kHz)
> 
> 
> As specs. says


 
  
 It won't says which input.  It could be just analogue, in which it would be 100% useless to me.
  
 It needs to be from Toslink or SPDIF.  The specs says nothing about it.


----------



## TwoEars

manel said:


> I just got the HD650s and I haven't made up my mind yet regarding the amplification. I'm leaning towards ZxR as I said two pages before, but some folks keep telling me to go the external route. The problem is that I think I'll need those Sound Blaster effects for gaming and movies. Should I consider going external and get a cheap Sound Blaster Z instead to retain those gaming features?
> 
> @TwoEars, you said earlier that ZxR and HD650s make a great combo and that the sound card has no problems driving the headphones. But will its Amp chip bring the HD650s closer to full potential? I see you have an external DAC connected to the card through Optical-out, so you are completely bypassing its own DAC chip and amplification.
> 
> Another option I'm considering is getting now the ZxR card and later add to the chain a tube amp like Schiit Valhalla if I'm not 100% satisfied with the sound output.


 
  
 "Full potential" is so subjective. You'll find people around here who's spent $5000 on dacs and amps who still are trying to bring out the full potential of their headphones....
  
 But yes. I've got the Anedio D1, that's at least a $800 DAC even on the second hand market. It'll take something like that to beat the ZXR, don't bother with less.
  
 But let me put it like this, if I was gaming and not listening to music I don't think I'd be able to tell if I was listening to the ZXR or my Anedio. So the ZXR and its amp is pretty damn good.
  
 Get the ZXR now and be happy is my advice, if you want you can always upgrade with a an external amp or dac later.
  
 Good choice on the HD650 btw.


----------



## Tachikoma

About the recording capabilities of the card, what's the SB Z's latency like with asio drivers? I'm looking to plug a guitar (preamp'ed) into the soundcard, and process that signal through Amplitube. If its really 1ms as advertised I think I'm getting it.


----------



## andyvandala

turokrocks said:


> I appreciate any help .
> 
> I have the Asus P8Z77-V Deluxe with i7+16GB ram.....and 680GTX with creative ZXR.
> All was perfect , until I got a new 680 for sli, and had to change the place of the creative zxr from pciexp1_3 to PCIex1 blue1_1 (the other remaining PCIE1 blue remaing is between the sli cards)
> ...


 
  
 Did you solve your problem with that irritating hiss and ZxR disconnecting?
 I have exactly the same problem on my old mobo Gygabyte G33M-S2.
 Don't know what to do. New drivers 1.0.0.22 didn't help. Creative Worldwide Customer Response can't help.
 The only issue is to completely turn off the AC Power Supply, but this can't solve the problem in general.


----------



## AUserName501

tachikoma said:


> Question, can I use SBX processing for music listening? and if I can, how does it compare to this http://www.head-fi.org/t/555263/foobar2000-dolby-headphone-config-comment-discuss?


 
http://www.head-fi.org/t/704775/a-comparison-of-different-virtual-surround-sound-on-the-same-audio-track
  
 Look at VSS applied to stereo music. Dolby Headphone sounds further away but it sounds odd at times.


----------



## NoOneLt

gradius said:


> It won't says which input.  It could be just analogue, in which it would be 100% useless to me.
> 
> It needs to be from Toslink or SPDIF.  The specs says nothing about it.


 
 If it is not specified it should be true for all input methods, also Toslink support all of mentioned formats.
  
 I do not have extension board connected so maybe someone who has can check what windows says about it in recording device settings, then You'll be 100% sure.


----------



## andyvandala

gradius said:


> Can Sound Blaster ZxR capture/recording 32kHz @ 24-bit using Toslink/SPDIF input ?


 
 I don't think so..
 http://ipic.su/9Y3A.jpg
 http://ipic.su/9Y3C.jpg


----------



## NoOneLt

andyvandala said:


> I don't think so..
> http://mar.imghost.us/S5cb.jpg
> http://mar.imghost.us/S5dL.jpg


 
 Links are broken.


----------



## germanium

One positive thing about the ZXR on my system at least is the very low DPC latency.  Seems to peak at about a paltry 140 microseconds & a low of 95 & stays tightly in that range. this is much lower than Asus's drivers allowed on my system which were pushing peaks of around 500 microseconds.


----------



## raymond555




----------



## Nitrius

With the ACM module for the ZXR, how do you control your volume level? Set windows to 100 and control the level with the ACM knob? Or set the ACM knob to full and control the audio in windows? Or some sort of mix?


----------



## raymond555

I dont use the ACM at all....


----------



## andyvandala

ACM module works only for Headphones volume controlling. It can't control Speakers volume.
 I put the volume on 33% in drivers and then use the ACM knob.


----------



## Anarion

It controls whatever you plug in ACM (it doesn't have to be headphones and you can plug the ACM in any audio out you want). I personally use 10% windows volume and turn the ACM knob to around 66%. I use line out, not the headphone amp out.


----------



## MaxKohler

Just to provide an update, all of the problems I was having with the ZXR I'm now having with my xtremegamer. So I guess the problem's coming from somewhere else...
  
 EDIT: if anyone has an idea about what could be wrong _(metallic static/distortion, sound dying till I restart computer - only in CS 1.6 - audio device not being detected on PC restart, then wouldn't boot into windows till I unplugged my headphones from the card)_, I'd appreciate it!


----------



## TwoEars

maxkohler said:


> Just to provide an update, all of the problems I was having with the ZXR I'm now having with my xtremegamer. So I guess the problem's coming from somewhere else...
> 
> EDIT: if anyone has an idea about what could be wrong _(metallic static/distortion, sound dying till I restart computer - only in CS 1.6 - audio device not being detected on PC restart, then wouldn't boot into windows till I unplugged my headphones from the card)_, I'd appreciate it!


 
  
 Try this:
  
 1. Unplugg the card and uninstall all drivers.
 2. clear cmos by unplugging the computer from the wall and removing motherboard battery for about 10 min.
 3. Install card again but pick another slot on the motherboard.
 4. put battery back, plug in power cable and power up.
 5. install drivers from cd if you have instead of the internet. but otherwise internet will do.


----------



## terrynfs

ncsuzoso said:


> Here are some of my settings that I've saved:
> 
> 
> Polk Audio New
> ...


 
 I register an account just want to say thank you, you saved my SBZ!
  
 I bought it to replace the 10+ years old audigy-plat, but i found the SQ from SBZ is like sxxt, cannot compare or even close to the audigy at all.
  
 I tried many different eq combinations, SQ gets improved somehow, but still far behind what I expected. I saw ur post when almost give up and plan to throw the card to the trash bin.
  
 I modify the
 HP100 First
 18 16 12 15 10 12 17 16 23 20
 a little bit to:
 6 4 0 3 -2 0 5 4 11 8 (all minus 12)
  
 This works perfectly for me! Now the crystal back again!
  
 Thanks a lot and hope more people can try out your settings.
  
 Before I forget, Im using G4me one.


----------



## utmelidze

Creative omni usb works with android smartphone through usb as external dac


----------



## DrunkenTiger

utmelidze said:


> Creative omni usb works with android smartphone through usb as external dac


 

 That's pretty cool! I have the Omni and I love it for the most part <3


----------



## andyvandala

Have anyone EQ settings for SB ZxR ?


----------



## Anarion

andyvandala said:


> Have anyone EQ settings for SB ZxR ?



One EQ setting does not fit for all. It's impossible to answer to your question, especially because you didn't say what headphones or speakers you use. On top of that it depends what kind of sound you are after.


----------



## Cesconeto

Hello, I am new to the forums, registered to ask for advice on these Z series cards.

 Next week I am upgrading my on-board ALC892 to one of these options:

 1: Sound Blaster Zxr.
  
 2: Sound Blaster Z + Schiit Vali.
  
 I will pair it with a Sennheiser HD600 that I already have. The use will be 50/50 on games/music. Price wise they are about the same and i have some doubts.
  
 What makes more of a difference? The better DAC on the Zxr or the better amp with the Vali?

 I'v read in this thread that when connected trough the line-out these cards dont have as good 3D sound for gaming as when connected on the HP out because of some HRTF issues. Is it true? Is there any way around it?

 I saw that the Z line-out is a 3.5mm jack. Will I be losing anything by connecting the Vali with a 3.5mm->RCA cable instead of a RCA->RCA connection?

 Thank you for your help.


----------



## kupco

I have Soundblaster Z connected via headphone out (through a 3.5mm->RCA cable) to a Schiit Magni to my Sennheiser HD650 and all works well. When I was trying to connect the Magni and headphones to a line out from the Z, but the surround was unusable (the soundcard defaults to speakers and it is impossible to have it think you have headphones connected, that works only through the headphone out). I was not able to figure out a different way than using the headphone out. 
  
 I'm getting a better amp to see if I can get a better sound out of the HD650, but that is a different topic.


----------



## Evshrug

Cesconeto,
DAC vs Amp is worthy of a debate, so I'd suggest reading about how improvements in each affect overall sound, and then decide which is more important to you. DAC and Amp can both be upgraded later anyway.

A *blind* guess from just reading your post, I'd suggest an SB Z plus a good amp with low output impedance, because the Sennheiser HD600 has an uneven impedance vs frequency curve (check headroom graphs on your headphone) it will actually increase bass (possibly to the point of bloating) if you plug the HD600 straight into the ZxR which has a relatively high output impedance (~40 ohms).

That's not to say the HD600 is flawed... I'm just saying you might get a sound different from what you expect. If you have a home theater receiver around, those usually have high output impedance (some up to 120 ohms) and you can get an idea of how it affects the sound. The last amp in the chain is the only one that can affect a headphone with output impedance, but honestly a lot of other headphones aren't noticeably affected by output impedance. You can always "upgrade" the DAC later by getting an external DAC with an optical input.

I've never had problems connecting an amp to a 3.5mm line out, as long as the jack wasn't defective.


----------



## Exodus121

Hi, 
  
 so I just got my zxr and plugged in my akg q701's.
  
 Now I'm not sure I should be doing this but I set the headphone ohms to 600?
 Currently going through mozart's concerto No. 5, piano guys albums and then heading off to do some dark souls 2.
  
 I'm also messing around with the EQ, usually from my old days I'm just used to setting to ye good ol U shape.
  
 What say you fellows?


----------



## mouzman

Hey,
  
 Can anyone make some EQ and overall settings for a sound blaster ZX and a pair of AKG 242? Right now it sounds very flat. 
  
 Thanks!


----------



## Evshrug

Exodus,
I just mess around too, though I like a little more mids. I recommend reducing the treble spike by a moderate cut to the 2kHz band

Mouzman,
I don't know what the K242 sounds like, but if you think it sounds flat maybe a good place to start is by turning on Crystalizer a little... Crystalizer is basically an EQ.

To find what I liked, back in the day, I used EQ presets and looked at what they changed, eventually combining the parts I liked about different presets. But eventually, I got a dedicated external amp, plugged it directly into the headphone port – that made the sound much more dynamic and lively, and I have barely bothered with any EQ since.


----------



## KamikazeIce

I've been lurking around for a bit now, but I've got a question.

  
 I picked up an Omni to replace my motherboard for sound duties. ASRock Z68 Extreme3 Gen3, Realtek ALC892 (that I've "unlocked" for Dolby Digital Live output).
 First, all my hardware being: AKG k712, Astro Mixamp 2013, Schiit Vali (console friendly, just now expanding into PC audio). I'll add a TL

  
 Now, I was going from onboard to my mixamp via DDL optical for Dolby Headphone, and while this is fantastic I need to try the other formats myself since it is different for everyone.

  
 Now, I figured I wouldn't need to use the mixamp, and just go from Omni to amp then mah ears.
 Only I don't quite understand the "correct" way to setup the Omni, so I just tried every thing. I'll touch on my experience with optical vs analog in a second, but it applies here too.


  
 Windows @ 5.1, Omni @ 5.1
 Windows @ 5.1, Omni @ headphones
 Windows @ 5.1, Omni @ 5.1 (extra speakers unchecked, so only front L/R)
 Windows @ 5.1 (extra speakers unchecked), Omni @ headphones
 Windows @ 5.1 (extra speakers unchecked), Omni @ 5.1 (extra speakers unchecked)
 I had SBX enabled (surround checked) on all of these, no other settings enabled, and set to 100 for a quick test.

  
 To me, Windows set to 5.1 and Omni set to headphones produced the best results.
 I tried using stereo instead of headphones, but changing in either the Omni or Windows setting for stereo vs headphones will appropriately change the other as well, so I clearly can't use this option as it won't let games output surround for SBX to process properly.

  
 Now, the above was all done with using the two RCA jacks on the Omni going straight to my amp, I was not using the headphone or line-out ports. Everything soundded great, positionally, except the quality was.... muffled, for lack of a better word, and bass was completely absent like I was hearing nothing but high mids. No ammound of playing with EQ settings would get it to sound right. 
 Now I connected the optical cable to my mixamp (not using DH button).

  
 First thing I did was go to the cinematic tab in the Omni control panel and check the box that routes all analog audio through spdif.
 Now we're talking, sound is back to sounding like it should, except I don't think SBX is working now.

  
 I didn't enable Dolby Digital Live, as I WANT 2.0 audio from the Omni; I want that SBX processed stereo track and not a compressed 5.1 to use with the mixamp's Dolby Headphone button (Which  does work this way but I don't want to use DH at the moment).
 Using The same setting I thought sounded the best for analog (Windows @ 5.1 and Omni set to headphones) and having the Omni send that signal through optical, does not have the same results. No matter which configuration of the above setups, and both with and without Dolby Digital Live output enabled, I cannot get any SBX processing.
 Sometimes I think I hear it, it is nothing like it was with analog.

  
 So could someone please walk this dummy by the hand, please? I remember reading somewhere that using the headphone out or line-out only gave you SBX processed 2 channel audio instead of SBX virtual surround (please bear with my wording, I'm terrible. Only trying to describe a difference between SBX virtual surround and SBX 2ch, which as much as I've read here and elsewhere is different).

  

  
 And I appreciate all the information here. It was fun experimenting with headphones before settling, thanks for all the comments for new people like myself.

  
 And for giggles I enabled 5.1 DDL and ran both SBX and DH. Makes voices sound like they're in my room but everything else is just silly.
  
  
 *Edit*
 Forgot to finish my last line there.
 Also, when using SBX with optical (Windows @ 5.1, Omni @headphones, SPDIF cloning, no DDL), sounds from anything except "front left/right" sound like someone is playing with a balance fader, they are CONSTANTLY moving back and forth. This is making me sick, it's exactly what one would hear if they were spinning around really really fast.


----------



## Marsson

I just ordered a Valhalla from Schiit to plug into my ZXR, and then use my HD 650 and the AKG Q701 that's on its way with it. Do you guys think the Valhalla is unnecessary, or will it improve the sound significantly? Also, since the surround sound effects doesn't work well with headphones through RCA, is it possible to plug the amp into the headphone jack, or will the double amping ruin the sound?


----------



## KamikazeIce

I don't think it would improve the sound much. My mixamp could play my K712 without much trouble but it had that little hiss once it was turned up past 60% or so.
 I double amp for my consoles (Consoles > Astro Mixamp 2013 > Schiit Vali > AKG K712). While the mixamp alone can play the K712 plenty loud, anything past ~60% or so creates an audible hiss. You can't hear it unless it's silent or playing at 100%. As long as you have no noise floor issues, I suspect multiple amps are not much of an issue unless you're recording (I doubt our ears could hear any difference this may or may not cause). I have no problems with it, and have no audible differences that I notice between my motherboard > amp vs motherboard > mixamp > amp when played at the same dBs.


  
 Also, while I don't have experience with alot of amps, I don't think the sound between them would sound noticably different; only changing some very fine details, adding flavor if you will to the sound signature.


  
 But this is all from someone who has trouble setting up a Sound Blaster Omni 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





. If you need a more weightful reply you will have to wait until someone else chimes in, sorry. (read: someone who has a post history you can read and get an idea of their grasp of such topics)


----------



## KamikazeIce

I have come to the conclusion that SPDIF out does not work properly with SBX. It's fine sending an unprocessed DDL-compressed signal, just not with higher quality 2 channel PCM.
 As I mentioned yesterday, 2ch optical was giving me some very bad results--with the exception of the left/right channels, I was hearing something I can only describe as someone playing with the L/R fader (each channel's SBX effects shifting back and forth between ears in an unintended manner).
 Motherboard audio enabled or disabled makes no difference on the results (and I manually specify output devices for testing).
 Full-range speakers, tried both yes and no, and combinations thereof while testing. Also, I find it made no audible difference (it did allow better control over bass via crossover or bass boost--neither of which will ever be used).
 To reiterate, here's my settings again:
 Windows settings for Omni Analog Device (in Playback Devices) is set to 5.1, full range,, and both analog and digital are set to output 24bit 48kHz.
 Omni Control Panel > Analog (RCA R/L speaker out) is set to "Headphones"
 Omni Control Panel > Cinematic (Settings for SPDIF output) has SPDIF cloning of Omni Analog Device enabled (Dolby Digital Live output mixing is DISABLED)

 Analog still sounds muffled (not because of missing channels, discrete channels from speaker tests with no HRTF processing play all channels on both consoles and on both onboard and Omni, only the quality is different).
 Optical still sounds bad (quality is good, but sound stage and imaging is bad enough to make me queasy from the fading left and right SBX effects)

  
 If you leave Windows alone, changing the speaker setting in the Omni Control Panel will only change how SBX processes the sound but there's a catch... The Windows setting will forcefully change if you select whichever one is different from Windows but only between stereo and 5.1. You can change between 5.1 and headphones without Windows forcefully changing, but if you go to Stereo and then Headphones your windows settings will be forced to stereo-only mode (no surround sound from games to process this way).
 I think changing between <matching windows setting> and "Headphone" changes the SBX processing. I'm not quite completely convinced yet, as changing between the two seems to only affect the analog output and not SPDIF via cloning. I hear no difference between them when using optical. Nor do I hear the sound card "switch" to the new setting (no short audio cut signifying the transfer is noticeable as it is when changing this setting for analog).

  
 The results from the headphone port is as I expected; works but sounds like I've got cotton in my ears.

  
 BUT there is something interesting I discovered while doing this test.

  

 I expected these results, except I found something interesting in the process.
 When listening via optical, as I stated above, I hear no difference between Headphone and 5.1 settings.
 Now, if I continue to listen via optical and insert something into the headphone jack (I used an extension/adapter plug, connected to my air guitar) the Control Panel will change the settings to "Headphone". When using "Headphone" setting this way, there is a clear difference is audio. A very good difference. I'm not quite sure yet, but I think this just fixed my problem; need more testing but man is this a huge, and positive, difference!
 This isn't the first time I've had to stick something into a headphone port to get audio working properly with optical (my old VIZIO needed it to mute the tv without muting optical output).

 Is this a known problem? Can someone else try this and give their thoughts on this?
 If SBX is finally doing proper HRTF, both 2ch and 5.1 DDL encoding sound very nice now and I can't decide which one is the better or more accurate option. To me, 2ch sounds very slightly muffled in comparison but has better audio panning, while 5.1 DDL encoding sounds a little more dynamic with slightly harder panning between the virtual channels.

  
 TL;DR summary:
 SBX processing is borked coming out of SPDIF (analog cloning, 2 channels only, Dolby Digital Live encoding DISABLED. Discrete and unprocessed audio is still fine).
 Changing between "Headphone" and "5.1 Surround" in the Omni Control Panel do not properly change processing modes. (Leave windows at 5.1)
 Sticking something in the "headphone" port to fix optical output processing (nothing needs to be connected, a simple plug adapter is enough) the Control Panel forces a working "headphone" mode.
 Yay it's working properly now!


----------



## Evshrug

Kami,
Great experimentation, I think you now know a little more than me! I haven't tried connecting an external DAC through optical yet... And generally, I've not found the headphone port to be a detriment to amping quality, I use a 3.5mm headphone to RCA cable to connect my SET tube amp and I'm hearing great SBX results... so I haven't yet messed with it more than that.

I may need to reinstall my drivers or something, when I switched from playing Borderlands 2 with my Z internal card to my external Omni, everything was good except when I enable the mic input (either the built-in Beamforming mic or my own external plugged into the mic port) I get a tick sound at regular intervals, which also plays through to my friends playing with me.


Marsson,
FWIR the HD650 almost always sounds like an HD650, but my Q701 scaled up a lot with my tube amp. I mean, changing headphones makes a bigger tonal difference, but an amp improvement gave the driver more authority and control over sound output, more body to bass impact and less brittleness to treble. Using an HD650 with an amp with very high output impedance might make bass rise to the point where it blooms a bit, but that shouldn't be a thing with the Valhalla. It's like a finishing touch, though I may say that about my incoming DAC upgrade if it ever gets here.


----------



## havok2022

Not sure if anyone has seen this or called this out yet, but the ZX is currently on Amazon for $89.99. Figured I would throw it out there. Looks like the ZxR is $199 as well.
  
 http://www.amazon.com/Creative-Blaster-Gaming-Control-SB1506/dp/B009XDWUCQ/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top


----------



## alv4426

I would wait, I paid a little less than $150 from newegg for my zxr not too far back


----------



## watsaname

Does anyone know if the EQ built into the SBZ suite works through optical? I always felt that there was something that I didn't like about the Q701 and actually somewhat preferred my old AD700 because it just felt a lot less fatiguing and enjoyable. Was reading the Q701 and they were talking about the treble spike at 2k, I EQ'd that down and I feel that I like these headphones a lot better now. I am using the USB trick right now, and was wondering if I should go for the optical switch sooner.


----------



## SaLX

Yes watsaname - the EQ, plus the surround and all the other effects work via optical (ie 2ch PCM). Works very well out to my Audio_gd.


----------



## KamikazeIce

evshrug said:


> Kami,
> Great experimentation, I think you now know a little more than me! I haven't tried connecting an external DAC through optical yet... And generally, I've not found the headphone port to be a detriment to amping quality, I use a 3.5mm headphone to RCA cable to connect my SET tube amp and I'm hearing great SBX results... so I haven't yet messed with it more than that.
> 
> I may need to reinstall my drivers or something, when I switched from playing Borderlands 2 with my Z internal card to my external Omni, everything was good except when I enable the mic input (either the built-in Beamforming mic or my own external plugged into the mic port) I get a tick sound at regular intervals, which also plays through to my friends playing with me.
> ...


 

 Please, I'm mearly acting like I know what I'm doing 
 Still, I don't trust myself one bit. I have a habbit of looking to into something and making flaws in something that are not signifigant enough, however my issue with the Omni is easily not such a case here. I've read about the mic issues, but for me it's a non-issue (I never use voice chat, typing for me is a million times more faster and more coherent than me trying to talk while doing something else at the same time. I hate you brain, so so much.).

  
 Have you tried, or plan to try, optical with your setup? I've been using digital audio for years now via HDMI, but I really don't remember there being the kind of difference I hear between my RCA-to-3.5mm adaptors (one I've made, two I've bought, one new because I wanted the cable sleeve and plugs to match my Denon 4520CI's Banana plugs on my 11.4-in-progress setup. SEOS speakers are so lovely, but this AKG K712 made me buy it and I don't regret it for my horror games! Sorry, getting sidetracked here...)... Where was I? Oh, yes. I don't remember such a difference between analog and digital audio when I first started futzing about with optical cables. But the difference I hear between my Omni's RCA/headphone outs and optical are sigifigant. I've got a friend who will lend me their Omni to see if it's a bad egg or not. I don't think so, and this is probbably just a driver problem which as I recall has always been a problem with Creative. If that quality difference wasn't such a drastic change, I wouldn't really be so worried about making optical work properly, I still have some issues with the Control Panel when making changes on-the-fly even with my headphone port work around.

  

  
 I read either in this thread,  Evshrug's "If I knew then what I know now" thread, or in Mad Lust Envy's Headphone Gaming Guide, that someone (sorry I don't remember who, and can't seem to find it again!) had a bad experience with some HRTF processing via computer/usb. If you read this, could you please try what I describe above (sticking something into the "headphone out" port when not using said port for audio--i.e. using optical out). I would love to know if this might be an improvement for you.
 And anyone else, feel free to try it and leave your results in the thread (positive, negative, no change, any and all are appreciated).
 I think I will make a quick post in MLE's thread as well, this technique may prove useful to someone and I sure wouldn't think to try it (even though I've had to do such a trick before, as I mentioned yesterday).


----------



## KamikazeIce

watsaname said:


> Does anyone know if the EQ built into the SBZ suite works through optical? I always felt that there was something that I didn't like about the Q701 and actually somewhat preferred my old AD700 because it just felt a lot less fatiguing and enjoyable. Was reading the Q701 and they were talking about the treble spike at 2k, I EQ'd that down and I feel that I like these headphones a lot better now. I am using the USB trick right now, and was wondering if I should go for the optical switch sooner.


 
  
  
 If you're lucky, you may beable to understand my previous posts covering the problems I've encountered with the Sound Blaster Omni (basically an external Z card.) If you can't, I don't blame you; I have trouble being coherent.
  
 I had no issues with using the EQ features over optical. All of my issues are, as far as I can tell, strictly tied to getting SBX processing to properly work with optical. Dolby Digital Live encoding (5.1 compressed 2ch audio) and stereo (2ch PCM) were not effected.
  
 And I've no clue what you refer to as a "USB trick", could you explain or point me somewhere that does? I'd like to see if it could help my issues.


----------



## watsaname

I can't remember their name correctly, I think it was SniperCzar. He discovered that if you go into your mic recording device there is a device called, "What U Hear"(You don't have to set it to default). If you go to its properties, there is an option that is called, "Listen to this Device". Check that, then point the sound to your usb DAC and you will be getting everything that the SBZ would get and process.
  
 This includes SBZ Processing and EAX. Make sure that you have SBZ sound card set to default in sound devices so that you will actually get audio.
  
 EDIT: About the optical issue. Do you have decent optical cables? In one of the Audio -GD subs people were saying that the actual cable made a difference. I personally don't believe that a 100 dollar optical cable will be superior to a ~5-10 dollar optical cable, but I can see how maybe a 10 dollar optical cable will be superior to the 30 cents optical cable that brand X put in the box along with their bargain bin blu-ray player.


----------



## SaLX

> EDIT: About the optical issue. Do you have decent optical cables? In one of the Audio -GD subs people were saying that the actual cable made a difference. I personally don't believe that a 100 dollar optical cable will be superior to a ~5-10 dollar optical cable, but I can see how maybe a 10 dollar optical cable will be superior to the 30 cents optical cable that brand X put in the box along with their bargain bin blu-ray player.


 
 Get a decent optical cable - $10-15 dollars with good reviews. They do make a difference apparently re: noise (or something). Won't hurt to spend a bit.


----------



## watsaname

Yeah, if I do decide to get the optical modi or optical HifiDiyMe dac I will most likely invest in one of the "premium" optical cables from monoprice. I have their premium rca and 3.5mm cables and really like them, supple and heavy duty.


----------



## KamikazeIce

watsaname said:


> I can't remember their name correctly, I think it was SniperCzar. He discovered that if you go into your mic recording device there is a device called, "What U Hear"(You don't have to set it to default). If you go to its properties, there is an option that is called, "Listen to this Device". Check that, then point the sound to your usb DAC and you will be getting everything that the SBZ would get and process.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I see. It's basically a "Stereo Mix" device. This appears to have the same purpose of the SPDIF's option to clone what gets output from the analog audio device.

  
 I gave it a shot today. My setup was as follows:
 Windows set to 5.1
 Realtek (motherboard audio) SPDIF device is unlocked (it outputs 5.1 Dolby Digital Live)
 "What U Hear" is set to playback through Realtek SPDIF device (listen to device is checked so it works)
 Omni analog device is primary device, Omni optical is cloning this signal.

  
 For ease of testing, both optical outs have seperate cables that I switch between, connecting to my Astro Mixamp 2013.

  
 5.1 set in Control Panel:
 Omni = optical 5.1 analog cloning (no DDL), discrete channels are downmixed.
 Stereo Mix/What U Hear = only two channels (left and right). no downmixing.

  
 Headphone set in Control Panel:
 Both, no SBX = basically the same. Straight from the Omni is cleaner vs using the Stereo Mix/What U Hear device (due to less devices in the signal path me thinks).
 Omni, SBX on = Same results as yesterday. SBX is not processing audio properly and doing the "fade" slider.  If you have Dark Souls 2, just listen to the start menu music. If you hear it constantly fading left/right you know your SBX is screwed up.
 Omni, SBX on with Headphone Port trick =  SBX properly working.
 Stereo Mix/What U Hear = Also working. Result matches the test directly above.

  
 Now, as I menioned, there is a quality difference between optical from the card vs going through Stereo Mix/What U Hear. I suspect the added device processing effects the sound the most, but it becomes more noticable if you play high quality audio. This was noticed using Foobar2000 to convert  some high fidelity tracks I had audio to 24 bit 48kHz, straight to the same device and never interupting the audio stream. This is why I chose the setup I did for comparing, to get a better A vs B comparison.

  
 To my ears, the difference between the two is easily noticable but without a large difference between them. However I find it obvious with high quality audio sources.

  
 The difference I describe between my Omni's RCA/Headphone out and optical out is far different, and I would have liked to have a way to test the quality of Stereo Mix/What U Hear to another analog out but I have none other than my motherboard (I already mentioned it is terrible for analog, and overclocking just makes the noise floor worse).

  
 Please note that I did NOT test analog out from my motherboard/Realtek, my analog out onboard is noticably fuzzy to anyone.
  
 *Edit:
 Oops, forgot to mention that my audio cables are not causing any unwanted or unexpected results. This is usually the first thing I try, and has never been an issue even for cables I make myself. But still, I check with multiple cables just to be sure. It is possible all of my cables are bad, but highly unlikely but I cannot rule it out until I try one that makes the others seem worse


----------



## watsaname

I might be missing something, but as I understand it you are using MOBO SPDIF>>OMNI>>HEADPHONES or MOBO SPDIF>>OMNI>>RCAs>>HEADPHONE AMP(?)>>HEADPHONES for scenario without "What U Hear". Then for "What U Hear" scenario you are doing MOBO USB>>What U Hear>>MOBO SPDIF>>MIXAMP>>HEADPHONES? Is that what you are doing or something else?


----------



## KamikazeIce

watsaname said:


> I might be missing something, but as I understand it you are using MOBO SPDIF>>OMNI>>HEADPHONES or MOBO SPDIF>>OMNI>>RCAs>>HEADPHONE AMP(?)>>HEADPHONES for scenario without "What U Hear". Then for "What U Hear" scenario you are doing MOBO USB>>What U Hear>>MOBO SPDIF>>MIXAMP>>HEADPHONES? Is that what you are doing or something else?


 
 I just now realized I could have set What U Hear to the Omni's own SPDIF out device.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 I feel stupid, lol. I totally overlooked this and assumed that using What U Hear was intended to be used as a passthrough to another device (motherboard, GPU via HDMI) but only for 2ch audio.
  
 I've done a quick little test comparing SPDIF clone option (checkbox in control panel) against using What U Hear. Both are quite different from eachother, unlike what I experienced when it was Omni optical vs Mobo+What U Hear. The soundstange and localization are what I notice being different, but slightly. This is 2ch optical btw, everything changes if you enable DDL encoding, which even changes the What U Hear in a signifigant way.
 I do think the audio is a bit more sharp/bright when using What U Hear right back to the Omni, but with how long it takes me to change between them this may be placebo. I still think the best of all setups I've tried is Optical + Headphone port plugged.
  
 I can't tell which I like more, mostly because I know my ears (and eyes) lie to my brain about information. If only I knew what the correct setup was, by the book. Hard to judge what is good when you don't know what is right. I feel that by using DDL encoding that the sound stage is greatly expanded, getting closer to how large Dolby Headphones is.
  
  

 I'll try to be a little more clear this time, but sorry if I still fail 
  
 First chain: Audio Source>Omni (analog)>What U Hear>Motherboard>Mixamp>Headphones
 Second chain: Audio Source>Omni (Analog)>Omni SPDIF cloning to Optical>Mixamp>Headphones
 There was no analog used, aside from the analog-version of the Omni device in windows playback devices.
 I was unable to test analog output, because my motherboard has very high noise from the 3.5mm ports and the difference between optical and RCA/headphone out of my Omni is drastically different. Analog RCA/3.5mm headphone out sounds greatly muffled in comparison and this is why I was asking if anyone could test this "headphone port" trick to see how it changes their Optical.


----------



## watsaname

Yeah, DDL/DTS does change the sound quite a bit, not sure if for the better or not SQ wise. I remember I had configured DTS a certain way, unfortunately can't remember the exact settings, that really increased pinpoint accuracy in games I felt like it really enhanced the sound of foot steps so much. It felt like you were wall hacking, like that was how good the accuracy was.
  
 EDIT: Although it seems that turning on DDL/DTS sets the audio to speaker mode, and switching back to headphone mode turns off the effect of DTS/DDL. At least for the SB Z sound card, it does.


----------



## Fegefeuer

ZxR (headphone mode, SBX) -> Optical -> D2 DAC, no fading L/R in Dark Souls 2 or anywhere else. 
  
 The only problem I ever had was when the driver installation was miserable and the right rear channel was louder.


----------



## Evshrug

Ugh. My Omni and new-ish optical DAC aren't playing well together. I can't figure out the settings to have the Omni process headphone surround and pipe it out through Optical. Only setting it for stereo works, and I can never hear the SBX control panel play through the DAC. And if I play stereo with Tomb Raider or Starcraft II (so far this is all I've tested), I get a digital fwiIIIIITZZ sound that rises up and subsides every 30 seconds. It's really, REALLY irritating. My Bifrost is able to play the windows 24-bit 96kHz test tone fine.

But just to try it, I played Pandora, and that's working perfectly. Stereo and compressed for the internet, but it's hiccup-less.


----------



## watsaname

Did you try KamikaziIce's method of plugging something into the headphones jack of the. Omni? 

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk


----------



## Evshrug

I did.

Then,
Troubleshot with Stillhart a bit. I had "play audio through SPDIF" unchecked because it's worded like it would use DDL. I still didn't hear anything when I select "speakers (Omni device" in playback devices (windows 8), but I didn't try again to plug something into the headphone jack. 

Before this post (and currently), I have my Bifrost plugged into the optical-out built into my motherboard. WOAH! DAC is doing things very nicely, definitely an upgrade but based on the amount of upgrade I'm pretty satisfied saying this is an endgame DAC for me. I gotta listen to some reference songs I know well, demo a K612 too, but I'll give the Omni another shot next time, with "speakers" selected in playback devices (and SBX panel set for "headphones" and "optical-out enabled," and try again the trick of having something plugged into the headphone jack.

Also, I suck so bad at Starcraft now


----------



## kman1211

evshrug said:


> I did.
> 
> Then,
> Troubleshot with Stillhart a bit. I had "play audio through SPDIF" unchecked because it's worded like it would use DDL. I still didn't hear anything when I select "speakers (Omni device" in playback devices (windows 8), but I didn't try again to plug something into the headphone jack.
> ...


 

 A high-end DAC is a real nice upgrade. Is it a bigger upgrade than you expected?
  
 Hopefully you figure out how to get the Omni working with the Bifrost.
  
 I haven't played Starcraft in ages, I probably really suck at it.


----------



## TwoEars

fegefeuer said:


> ZxR (headphone mode, SBX) -> Optical -> D2 DAC, no fading L/R in Dark Souls 2 or anywhere else.
> 
> The only problem I ever had was when the driver installation was miserable and the right rear channel was louder.


 
  
 You have exactly the same setup as me! Only that I still have the D1.
  
 It's great, for gaming I get all the gaming effects. And when I go to play music I have foobar2000 set to "event" and to pass directly to the optical port. Works perfect.


----------



## Fegefeuer

twoears said:


> You have exactly the same setup as me! Only that I still have the D1.
> 
> It's great, for gaming I get all the gaming effects. And when I go to play music I have foobar2000 set to "event" and to pass directly to the optical port. Works perfect.


 
  




  
 yeah, it's impressive. That DAC is the best "playback" device I ever bought. Even after more than 1,5 years I'm always amazed by its incredible soundstage, transparency, very very clean signal quality and dead silence. Drives the TH-900, HD 800 and multi BA IEMs very well.
  
 I have Foobar permanently set to USB out, Winamp to the ZxR device (for the case I want to play with my own music)


----------



## TwoEars

fegefeuer said:


> yeah, it's impressive. That DAC is the best "playback" device I ever bought. Even after more than 1,5 years I'm always amazed by its incredible soundstage, transparency, very very clean signal quality and dead silence. Drives the TH-900, HD 800 and multi BA IEMs very well.
> 
> I have Foobar permanently set to USB out, Winamp to the ZxR device (for the case I want to play with my own music)


 
  
 Ok, so you're using the spidf toslink for general media and the USB for Foobar?
  
 I guess you have to toggle the input selector on the front of the Anedio to change between USB and toslink then?
  
 Since I have the D1 which only does 16-bit over USB I just use the toslink for everything. That gives me 24-bit depth and also I don't have to change the setup on front of the Anedio.
  
 Notice any difference in quality between your toslink and your USB?

 I tested my 24-bit toslink vs the 16-bit USB and either there was no noticatble difference or the toslink was slightly better, so I just went with the toslink and never looked back.


----------



## benbenkr

Okay, so this may not exactly be related to the SB Z/Zx/ZxR/Omni, but I just replaced my motherboard with the MSI Z87 GD65 (as well as for other MSI Z87 boards) and it does come with Creative's SB software running off the Realtek ALC1150 DAC.
  
 The Creative SB software created for this motherboard has SBX surround (surprised to see it actually) and it basically works the exact same way as the Z/Zx/ZxR/Omni. There's almost no difference in the SBX quality, if not for the very laid back and recessed mids nature of the ALC1150. I'll hook it up to my Aune X1 Pro later on to see if optical out works for SBX or not, but if it does then I see picking up any of the MSI mobo for a small M-ATX build would be  nice.


----------



## SaLX

benbenkr said:


> Okay, so this may not exactly be related to the SB Z/Zx/ZxR/Omni, but I just replaced my motherboard with the MSI Z87 GD65 (as well as for other MSI Z87 boards) and it does come with Creative's SB software running off the Realtek ALC1150 DAC.
> 
> The Creative SB software created for this motherboard has SBX surround (surprised to see it actually) and it basically works the exact same way as the Z/Zx/ZxR/Omni. There's almost no difference in the SBX quality, if not for the very laid back and recessed mids nature of the ALC1150. I'll hook it up to my Aune X1 Pro later on to see if optical out works for SBX or not, but if it does then I see picking up any of the MSI mobo for a small M-ATX build would be  nice.


 
 Bloody hell benbenkr - I had no idea MSI had nabbed the SB software. So basically, as you're using optical out then you can effectively dump your SBZ. If somebody builds a new rig - if they got an MSI board they could forget about buying an SBZ. And as you point out it sounds practically the same. Weird business move on Creative's part.
  
 Look forward to hearing more about how you get on with it


----------



## watsaname

Dang, if the software works through optical on that motherboard, that would be really cool for those who want itx builds. I recently ordered a D03k to check out how optical works out with my SB Z sound card before I get my feet wet with more expensive optical dacs, got it for 16 bucks too.


----------



## TwoEars

Yes, if the optical out really works for the SBX effect you wouldn't need a card. Pretty cool I must admit.
  
 What I'd really want is to figure out is a way to get the SBX effects applied when using a USB DAC.... since it seems most high-end dacs are going to USB route these days. But that seems almost impossibe.
  
 Toslink is so far the only interface I know with which you can send SBX effects sent to an external DAC with.
  
 Maybe there is 1-2 SBX cards that have RCA Spdif, I'm not sure. But it's not better than toslink. It's the USB interface that would be interesting for use with high-end DACs.


----------



## watsaname

Don't know what soundcard you have whether it is the Z, ZxR, or omni, but on the Z there is an option in Windows Recording devices that allows you to actually push audio that is processed by the sound card to a usb dac. It is called "What U Hear" and all you have to do is "check" the "Listen to this device" box and choose it to output to your usb sound card. I do notice quite a bit of popping when using it, but for sort of a temporary solution or just gaming it isn't too bad.


----------



## TwoEars

watsaname said:


> Don't know what soundcard you have whether it is the Z, ZxR, or omni, but on the Z there is an option in Windows Recording devices that allows you to actually push audio that is processed by the sound card to a usb dac. It is called "What U Hear" and all you have to do is "check" the "Listen to this device" box and choose it to output to your usb sound card. I do notice quite a bit of popping when using it, but for sort of a temporary solution or just gaming it isn't too bad.


 
  
 I'll be damned! it works!
  

  
 I didn't get any crack or pops, but I did find that the noisefloor was slightly higher when using this compared to toslink. If I turn up the volume ALL the way up on my dac and plug in a pair of headphones directly I can hear a very faint hiss. Probably windows fault.
  
 On normal volume I didn't hear anything though and I did get all the SBX effects over the USB, I checked.
  
 I'll have to play around a bit with it.
 Very cool! I'm impressed you knew this!


----------



## watsaname

Yeah, it is what I have been doing for a while now, outputting to my e07k, comparatively I find the soundblaster z much brighter then the e07k. It wasn't my discovery. It was a guy in MLE's thread, goes by the name of SniperCzar I believe.


----------



## SaLX

@TwoEars yes.. optical out works absolutely flawlessly - it's a superb solution. An external amp is recognised as the best way to power your cans.. and this solution is pretty much perfect for a PC. A year back, a consensus was formed here on this subforum via discussions/cross posts from the solid posters here; namely DJInferno, genclaymore, Purple, Evs and others etc. Roll call.
  
 To reiterate (if you use headphones): the SBZ range _only_ does surround sound correctly_ using the headphone option in SW_. That's crappy, but there is a solution: As Evshrug has consistently pointed out - you absolutely can double amp via the headphone out as long as the external amp is good quality (O2, Schiit). Evs uses a tube amp, which ought not to do well (as it's more 'noisy'), but it does.
  
 I've got to say that the SBZ on it's own is pretty damned good, but adding an external DAC + Amp does add that extra something (or zing/dynamics). Depends on how much juice your headphones require though. I doubt that the MSI benK mentioned could fully drive a lot of the quality headphones out there (like AKG's), but I bet that it could do it for all gaming headsets.
  
 Maybe Creative is making the move from add-on cards into motherboard SW licensing. Makes sense. Any thoughts on this??


----------



## TwoEars

Yes, I've been using the optical out from the soundblaster card now for several years.
  
 And then foobar2000 event to the optical interface for music. I get gaming effects for gaming and straight through for music, it's a great solution. Works seamlessly and I don't have to change any settings at all.
  
 I just didn't know I could actually feed the SBX effects back into windows over the PCI-E bus and then out through USB again !!
  
 That was pretty cool to discover as above.
  
 I will probably revert back to toslink since it's good for computers and gives 100% ground isolation.
  
 But it's good to have options!
  
 I'm definitely happy to see soundblaster get added to the motherboard, for me it makes a lot of sense as long as you're either able to output it over usb or optical.
  
 I think creative's business idea is to tie their sbx software effects to hardware, and sell the hardware. Because if they were a software company only people would probably just pirate the soundblaster software and that'd be the end of that.
  
 But to have it on the motherboard makes a lot of sense. Especially since it seems maybe soon mATX form factor will take over, people don't need or want a big ATX case anymore. Just get a small mATX case, SBX on the motherboard, add a graphics card if you want to game, route the sound through external DAC/AMP if you're an audiophile. Makes a lot of sense to me. The Fulltower computer is already pretty much dead, I think in maybe 5 years it will be mATX all around.


----------



## Evshrug

salx said:


> @TwoEars
> yes.. optical out works absolutely flawlessly - it's a superb solution. An external amp is recognised as the best way to power your cans.. and this solution is pretty much perfect for a PC. A year back, a consensus was formed here on this subforum via discussions/cross posts from the solid posters here; namely DJInferno, genclaymore, Purple, Evs and others etc. Roll call.



Indeed, connecting a clean Solid State amp (like a FiiO E12) or a well-grounded and constructed tube amp to an RCA or headphone-out jack DOES do quite a fine job, and double-amping with a nice amp can actually improve audio compared to plugging headphones straight into a soundcard. Double-amping is just like using a pre-amp and a power amp in a high-end discrete sound system for speakers.

However... I haven't found the right settings yet to get optical output working with SBX processing, yet. I just got my first discrete DAC last Friday (shipped with popcorn packing material?), do I still get to keep my status as a solid poster? Lol. I haven't yet found the settings that make Omni + Bifrost (plus amp) work, but prior to this Omni + amp was working pretty well.

A firmware update from the end of January cleared some popping problems I was having with the mic, and I reinstalled the stable drivers so those are up to date... but I still don't get any sound when I check the "enable optical output" on the SBX control panel, only stereo sound when I select the Omni's optical output as default from Window's playback devices.



twoears said:


> Yes, I've been using the optical out from the soundblaster card now for several years.
> 
> I'm definitely happy to see soundblaster get added to the motherboard, for me it makes a lot of sense as long as you're either able to output it over usb or optical.
> 
> I think creative's business idea is to tie their sbx software effects to hardware, and sell the hardware. Because if they were a software company only people would probably just pirate the soundblaster software and that'd be the end of that.




Can you suggest the settings to get headphone surround output over optical? I have the Omni (returned my internal SB Z card), but the control panel is very similar.

Also, I agree about licensing SBX processing to motherboard hardware manufacturers. It's a good move in the long-term for Creative, goes with that old saying "If you can't beat them, join 'em!" As motherboard audio has improved over the years, Creative has struggled to make hardware that an average consumer perceives as a "need" like they used to when soundcards were the only way to get audio at all. Mad Lust Envy's laptop (which I think was a Dell Alienware) had SBX processing built-in as well, though some of the other hardware malfunctioned for him (video output).


----------



## TwoEars

Hi Evshrug,
  
 to get it to work:
  
 1. In windows control panel for windows sounds the default playback device should be "Speakers SB..... "
  
 2. In the creative console launcher (creative control panel) there should be an option "play stereo mix using digital output". Tick that box.
  
 Toslink with SBX effects should now be working. You can test by changing the bass or surround effects while playing something simply like a youtube clip and listening for the difference.
  
 In Foobar2000 you can then set the default output device to be "event... soundblaster optical out" or similar. That means it will bypass windows and soundblaster for music playing in foobar.
  
 Hope it works!


----------



## benbenkr

salx said:


> Bloody hell benbenkr - I had no idea MSI had nabbed the SB software. So basically, as you're using optical out then you can effectively dump your SBZ. If somebody builds a new rig - if they got an MSI board they could forget about buying an SBZ. And as you point out it sounds practically the same. Weird business move on Creative's part.
> 
> Look forward to hearing more about how you get on with it


 
  
 I've been suspsecting it for a while, but had no reason to try it but then my very old P35 (from the C2Q days) just died out. Turns out I'm right... at least, mostly. SBX surround indeed does work through optical out from the MSI Z87 GD65, though the software is very barebones in the likes of SB Cinema. No DDL or DTS Connect of course, which I found to be handy for me personally when I want to go back to Dolby Headphone through a DSS for whatever reason.
  
 I connected optical out from the mobo > Aune X1 Pro > headphones (Fidelio X1/AKG Annies/HD558).
  
 Playing with the sliders then going back and forth with the SBZ, I do find that the SBZ to have better rear cues at the same 67%. I had to adjust the MSI's onboard to 83% for it to sound almost similar to the SBZ on rear cues alone. Oddly then, the front cues takes a step back.
  
 Also, just for testing to see if MSI's claim of having a proper headphone amp on the motherboard is true or not, I connected the X1 Pro directly to the Line Out (there's no headphone port) port and unfortunately, it seems that they are just spewing water on this one. At 100% Windows volume, my X1 wasn't even as loud as 9 o' clock on my Aune. So much for the so called OPA1652 amp it has.... 
  
 I'll poke into the .ini config to see what Creative has done to change things around, but so far I'm pretty happy with SBX on a board (after all, we know it's all software implementation) which means I don't have to spend an extra $80-90 for an SBZ/Omni if I didn't already had them. Will continue to examine a little more over the weekend to see how it goes.
  
 BTW, Gigabyte has their upcoming Z97x G1 board which uses the same Cirrus Logic CS4398 DAC on the SBZ/Zx/Omni and a TI BurrBrown OPA2134 as an op-amp. Would also come with the full version of SBX Pro Studio.
  


watsaname said:


> Dang, if the software works through optical on that motherboard, that would be really cool for those who want itx builds. I recently ordered a D03k to check out how optical works out with my SB Z sound card before I get my feet wet with more expensive optical dacs, got it for 16 bucks too.


 
  
 Yup totally agree! Definitely great on ITX builds and an even cleaner setup.
 I like what mobo manufacturers are doing these days interms of audio quality, we'd probably get valve amps soon on them if the trend continues.


----------



## watsaname

Haha, it would be funny if they added up tube amps to the audio section of mobos. There will be so many threads like, "My case is really hot and I have no idea why! HELP!!!!"


----------



## benbenkr

Yeah and then the return of gigantic heatsinks.....
  

  
 Then manufacturers are going to pour more snake oil by offering watercooling on the tube amps (lol What).... Yeah.


----------



## TwoEars

A tube amp circuit on the motherboard would be funny as hell.
  
 Someone should do it just to confuse the competition.


----------



## SaLX

Great post benbenkr
  
 I think whether for good or ill, many PC users now accept the meme that onboard is as good as a physical addon card. Given that, it's entirely logical that Creative wants a piece of the action, so it's not such a weird move after all. I can only speculate (but I'm pretty sure), that sound card sales have been nosediving for many years now.
  
 Will keep my eye on the Gigabyte Z97x G1's.


----------



## Evshrug

Hmm, I think I got it working, with processing.



twoears said:


> Hi Evshrug,
> 
> to get it to work:
> 
> ...




I still didn't have sound with these settings, but I did get it working by enabling everything you said EXCEPT I changed windows default playback device to the Omni's Optical output. Played a little Metro: Last Light, and I definitely had surround, front and back is distinct so it's not 2 channel upsampling/guessing. The only downside is sounds originating at 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock directly at my sides seem louder than front, back (I'm standing in place and listening to a guy talk from a chair as I spin around), and also sometimes when audio has too much "energy" like a big explosion I hear a hint of clipping, but it only happened like 2 times. I do have the optical output set to use up to 24-bit, 96kHz output.

I haven't used foobar (always reminds me of the war term fubar), but right now I have music on my iPad and I can play it through iTunes, which works well enough for me.


----------



## TwoEars

evshrug said:


> Hmm, I think I got it working, with processing.
> I still didn't have sound with these settings, but I did get it working by enabling everything you said EXCEPT I changed windows default playback device to the Omni's Optical output. Played a little Metro: Last Light, and I definitely had surround, front and back is distinct so it's not 2 channel upsampling/guessing. The only downside is sounds originating at 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock directly at my sides seem louder than front, back (I'm standing in place and listening to a guy talk from a chair as I spin around), and also sometimes when audio has too much "energy" like a big explosion I hear a hint of clipping, but it only happened like 2 times. I do have the optical output set to use up to 24-bit, 96kHz output.
> 
> I haven't used foobar (always reminds me of the war term fubar), but right now I have music on my iPad and I can play it through iTunes, which works well enough for me.


 
  
 Really? Ok.
  
 You get some basic surround sound in games through the inbuilt game software surround. But it's bettered by SBX.
  
 If you really want to confirm it's working open up a youtube music video and adjust the creative bass boost or EQ. There should be a very clear and easy to hear difference.
  
 If you do hear a change it's working, but otherwise windows sounds is passing the audio through the optical port directly and not through the creative chip.
  
 Just test it like I suggested to be sure.


----------



## NamelessPFG

twoears said:


> A tube amp circuit on the motherboard would be funny as hell.
> 
> Someone should do it just to confuse the competition.



AOpen already did that back in 2002!


----------



## DJINFERNO806

benbenkr said:


> I've been suspsecting it for a while, but had no reason to try it but then my very old P35 (from the C2Q days) just died out. Turns out I'm right... at least, mostly. SBX surround indeed does work through optical out from the MSI Z87 GD65, though the software is very barebones in the likes of SB Cinema. No DDL or DTS Connect of course, which I found to be handy for me personally when I want to go back to Dolby Headphone through a DSS for whatever reason.
> 
> I connected optical out from the mobo > Aune X1 Pro > headphones (Fidelio X1/AKG Annies/HD558).
> 
> ...




Funny enough, I recently bought an MSI gs70 stealth pro 2 gaming notebook and it came with the sound blaster suite too. I compared it to my z on my main pc and came to the same conclusions you did. I will say though it seems to be done in software due to the lack of a soundcore chip. I actually uninstalled the suite as my audiogd process would be taking up anywhere from 4-10% with sbx surround enabled. I guess there's always downsides to software processing.


----------



## TwoEars

namelesspfg said:


> AOpen already did that back in 2002!


 
  
 Holy crap! That is so cool! Now I actually DO want one! Can I get one like that when Haswell-E comes out?


----------



## watsaname

Wow didn't even know that existed, then again I was like ~9 years old and didn't have an interest in computers back then other than my Dreamcast.


----------



## XIX47

Newbie question: I have recently purchased a desktop headphone amp and I am wondering which sets of cables I need to connect the amp to the SB Z. Is it either the 3.5mm-to-RCA cable or 3.5mm-to-3.5mm cable? Thanks.


----------



## benbenkr

So guys, bad news... somewhat.
  
 After poking around into the .ini configs and .dll files for the SB Cinema, I found out that enabling SBX Surround through optical on the mobo is different to that of doing through a SBZ soundcard. The settings are different and it's no wonder I get a step back in front audio cues and soundstage. There's no way to manually change the settings by just setting figures though, so that's a bummer.
 Not only that, I forgot about the fact there's no option to set Windows to 5.1 in the first place as well when using SB Cinema.
  
 Next I tried going from line out from the mobo to line-in on my amp, because there isn't actually a headphone mode on the SB Cinema, headphone mode is actually tied between standard 2.0/2.1 mode. My guess was partially correct, enabling SBX Surround at 67% sounds quite similar to the correct (67%) settings everyone has been using on their SBZ/Omni for a while now with the exception that because the Realtek ALC1150 is very laid back in its nature, mids tend to feel a little lifeless and dried out.
  
 So there you go, SBX Surround built into software form on motherboards indeed do work — but only properly through line-out. Optical out does not work entirely well.
  
 Consolation prize I guess but because I can't use an external DAC through line-out from the mobo, I'm going back to my SBZ then.


----------



## SaLX

Well, that's a slight bummer. I'm sure they'll get better in the long run.


----------



## TwoEars

Yes, that's a bit of a bummer. Did you try outputting it over USB as discussed above?


----------



## benbenkr

twoears said:


> Yes, that's a bit of a bummer. Did you try outputting it over USB as discussed above?


 
  
 Through "What U Hear"? Not yet. But I'll give it a go later on and see if it works fine.
  
  
 *EDIT*
 It doesn't work. That's because there's no "What U Hear" as SB Cinema is a software layer not a driver per se.


----------



## MaxKohler

Hi guys, I haven't been following this thread for a bit but I was thinking that the mixed reviews on this card are likely because some people are using Alchemy with xfi cards. In this setup CMSS3D runs on top of the Alchemy hardware acceleration. Whereas the ZXR's SBX can not run on top of Alchemy. If you use Alchemy it automatically disables SBX surround.
  
 So basically if you don't use Alchemy with a game then SBX will make it sound much better. But if you're already using Alchemy & an xfi card with CMSS3D, then going to the ZXR with SBX will be a downgrade.


----------



## NoOneLt

maxkohler said:


> Hi guys, I haven't been following this thread for a bit but I was thinking that the mixed reviews on this card are likely because some people are using Alchemy with xfi cards. In this setup CMSS3D runs on top of the Alchemy hardware acceleration. Whereas the ZXR's SBX can not run on top of Alchemy. If you use Alchemy it automatically disables SBX surround.
> 
> So basically if you don't use Alchemy with a game then SBX will make it sound much better. But if you're already using Alchemy & an xfi card with CMSS3D, then going to the ZXR with SBX will be a downgrade.


 
 Tell us please about what current game titles that needs Alchemy You are talking about? EAX is dead, no need in Alchemy because of this anymore, of course there is some GOG titles, but is it worth it, You will be playing GOG for the rest of life?
  
 ZxR is superior in SQ than any Creative product out there, SBX surround superior over CMSS3D for my ears at least. Alchemy/EAX not the topic to discuss in 2014.


----------



## MaxKohler

noonelt said:


> Tell us please about what current game titles that needs Alchemy You are talking about? EAX is dead, no need in Alchemy because of this anymore, of course there is some GOG titles, but is it worth it, You will be playing GOG for the rest of life?
> 
> ZxR is superior in SQ than any Creative product out there, SBX surround superior over CMSS3D for my ears at least. Alchemy/EAX not the topic to discuss in 2014.


 
 Counter-strike 1.6 & Counter-strike: source both benefit from Alchemy. CS 1.6 is still in the top 10 most played games on Steam. There is a massive list of other games that benefit from Alchemy: http://archive.today/5xpC - this list hasn't been updated recently though, so there's probably a lot more.
  
 I heard that Borderlands benefits from it, and that's a new game.
  
 EAX isn't even used in CS 1.6, yet the difference between Alchemy vs no Alchemy is very big.
  
 I only marginally know what GOG is. It's not something I use.


----------



## Meduseld

Is it true that surround sound bug in valve games ?


----------



## genclaymore

maxkohler said:


> Counter-strike 1.6 & Counter-strike: source both benefit from Alchemy. CS 1.6 is still in the top 10 most played games on Steam. There is a massive list of other games that benefit from Alchemy: http://archive.today/5xpC - this list hasn't been updated recently though, so there's probably a lot more.
> 
> I heard that Borderlands benefits from it, and that's a new game.
> 
> ...


 

 Borderlands 1 and 2 do not benefit from it, they both has the option to use OpenAL by changing the Xaudio2 device line in the engine.ini to ALAudio.ALAudioDevice and that will make both BL1 and 2 use OpenAL. There A bunch of UE3 games that can be changed as well to ALAudio.ALAudioDevice. Even Serious Sam BFE has the function to switch to OpenAL from Xaudio2.


----------



## MaxKohler

genclaymore said:


> Borderlands 1 and 2 do not benefit from it, they both has the option to use OpenAL by changing the Xaudio2 device line in the engine.ini to ALAudio.ALAudioDevice and that will make both BL1 and 2 use OpenAL. There A bunch of UE3 games that can be changed as well to ALAudio.ALAudioDevice. Even Serious Sam BFE has the function to switch to OpenAL from Xaudio2.


 

 Do you know why they would chose the worse option as default?


----------



## genclaymore

I have no idea, it would save me time if they use OpenAL by default or at-least have a option to select it from within the game. An long side the maxvoices setting.


----------



## Fegefeuer

meduseld said:


> Is it true that surround sound bug in valve games ?


 
  
 Which do you mean?
  
 A few games like L4D2 don't work properly via OpenAL. The distance is wrongly processed plus the sound tends to fade out quickly after a specific distance.


----------



## Meduseld

fegefeuer said:


> Which do you mean?
> 
> A few games like L4D2 don't work properly via OpenAL. The distance is wrongly processed plus the sound tends to fade out quickly after a specific distance.


 
  
 CS:GO 
  
 this video demonstrates the problem, and i talk about all surround softares. 
  
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjad_V8ZAHo&feature=youtu.be
  
 is what other valve games have this problem ?


----------



## watsaname

Is he using a virtual surround dsp? If he isn't, that is probably why there is that "deadzone"... I noticed that in some games when you have 5.1 sound on and no virtual surround on the sounds are oriented very left, right, front, and rear. There isn't necessarily a front-right or front-left. Another game I noticed this phenomenon in is Bioshock Infinite, specifically the Burial at Sea pt.1.


----------



## NamelessPFG

If the deadzone problem is rooted in the game engine's audio mixing, no virtual surround DSP is going to fix that. The sound driver won't receive any more sound from the game just because you ticked virtual surround on.

About all I can suggest is to try out the usual Source engine DirectSound3D + ALchemy trick. That will inherently cause CS:GO to mix the audio differently.


----------



## MaxKohler

namelesspfg said:


> If the deadzone problem is rooted in the game engine's audio mixing, no virtual surround DSP is going to fix that. The sound driver won't receive any more sound from the game just because you ticked virtual surround on.
> 
> About all I can suggest is to try out the usual Source engine DirectSound3D + ALchemy trick. That will inherently cause CS:GO to mix the audio differently.


 

 Are you sure CSGO uses DirectSound3D? When I tried to use Alchemy with it, it didn't work...
  
 I know there are changes in the engine from CS:S to CSGO.


----------



## Fegefeuer

did you setup "snd_legacy_surround 1" either via config or autoexec.cfg?


----------



## NamelessPFG

fegefeuer said:


> did you setup "snd_legacy_surround 1" either via config or autoexec.cfg?


 
  
 This is the important part. Without that, Source engine games use software audio mixing, no DS3D.
  
 Only with it enabled can ALchemy do its job right.


----------



## PurpleAngel

Tigerdirect has the SB-ZxR for $150, after rebates.
 Looks like the rebate expires Thursday night.


----------



## TwoEars

purpleangel said:


> Tigerdirect has the SB-ZxR for $150, after rebates.
> Looks like the rebate expires Thursday night.


 
  
 That's a steal. Great card.
  
 So much engineering and music for the money!


----------



## PoWn3d0704

I hate to be this guy, but I read through the thread a little bit and I need some advice.

 I'm a gamer, but I've suddenly realized how much marketing has been influencing me. I'm currently using an HT Omega Claro PCI card that I bought on Craigslist for $30. That is paired with a set of Razer Timat 7.1's and a Logitech 5.1 analog speaker set. 

 My mic died on the Timats, so I bought an AntLion ModMic. I expect to replace the headphone within the year, but my HT Omega card has been acting funny and needs to go I think. (Plus the PCI port is between my two monster GPUs, so the sound card has had a rough life.) Would love to move to PCI-E 1x.

 I'm not an audiophile, yet, but I want the best. Budget is like $250-$300 for a sound card. Though the headphones and speakers are surround, its not a necceity for me, esp if stereo sounds so much better.


----------



## EarwaxDAC

Welcome to the new marketing. You are trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist.


----------



## PoWn3d0704

earwaxdac said:


> Welcome to the new marketing. You are trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist.




I hear you. The real issue is that my sound card is dying and I need to replace it. I'm just looking for a sound card that would be an upgrade over current HT Omega Claro. 

Probably just going to get that high end sound blaster. The one that's $100 off right now on TD


----------



## EarwaxDAC

I'm a bit jaded, if you didn't determine that on your own. 
  
 I owned a TitaniumHD and returned it due to lack of mic amp. I also owned a ZxR and returned it due to EMI bus noise being introduced into my mic during high GPU load. In the end, for my purposes, a regular consumer onboard codec with comfortable headphones is all I really need.
  
 Both are really nice kit. The ZxR is one of the best I've seen for this market. Personally, I think the panacea of 3d sound most folks is after is long gone and years from coming back. Maybe someday AMD mantle will deliver. If you don't care about 3d I recommend you externalize the amp element and go with something else that you can easily move between builds.
  
 Just my $0.02


----------



## LeonFi

Hi,
  
 I have tried to read as much of this thread as I could, along with several others, and I will admit that I am unusually confused still. I'm building my own PC (most likely windows 8.1) that will be used for gaming (non-competitive) amongst other things. I really want to get as immersive experience as possible with headphones. I'll mostly be playing Arma 2 & 3 in the near future.
  
 This is roughly summary of what I have gathered, but it is hard to tell what information is now out of date, or just plain wrong:
 - Positional audio with headphones can be simulated by a number of ways? CMSS-3D Headphone may be the best for positioning, but affects the tonality and cuts the bass?
 - SBX? A newer version of CMSS-3D? Or something entirely different?
 - Dolby Headphone?
  
 I listened to examples of these online, but my current headphones are really crappy, so that is probably a major bottleneck in comparing these properly. I don't know how much difference I should be expecting. The CMSS-3D Headphone example definitely provided better positioning than the straight stereo, and the Dolby sounded weird. The SBX didn't sound much different from the CMSS on my headphones. Is CMSS-3D Headphone available on the Z, Zx & ZxR, or is is just for older cards (I have heard endless bad things about the drivers though)?
  
 My intended motherboard is the MSI Z87-G45 Gaming ATX LGA1150 (with Sound Blaster Cinema) I can see a screenshot of something with SBX PRO STUDIO on the MSI website for the motherboard. Is this going to provide a similar gaming experience to the Z, Zx or ZxR? Benbenkr said earlier that “SBX Surround built into software form on motherboards indeed do work — but only properly through line-out. Optical out does not work entirely well.”
  
So, can anyone help me understand what the current situation is? If I prefer the sound of CMSS-3D Headphone, what do I really need to get that to work on my PC? I gather I need to buy an X-Fi (any model?), that means a trip to ebay, which is fine by me, or should I be looking at of the Z/Zx/ZxR? Is that going to be a pain with windows 8.1?
  
If CMSS-3D Headphone is not available on the newer cards, is the SBX PRO thing a decent alternative, and is that available on those cards? Is it going to be much different from what is included with the MSI motherboard I mentioned? Is there anything else I've overlooked?
  
Thanks!
  
L


----------



## hittnswitches

Hey All, 

I've been experimenting using a 3rd party 20 band eq with my Z (disabling sbx eq) and have had significant success hearing out DS users in Ghosts. I can set the number of frequencies (1-20), the frequencies I want to adjust (5400, 8000 etc.) and Q factor, which is great. 

Although I can hear enemies better, the game doeasn't sound as immersive as when I used the sbx eq. I've had very limited time calibrating, so could be a factor. Doesn't matter that much to me though as long as I don't get snuck up on.

Has anyone else tried something similar?


----------



## benbenkr

hittnswitches said:


> Hey All,
> 
> I've been experimenting using a 3rd party 20 band eq with my Z (disabling sbx eq) and have had significant success hearing out DS users in Ghosts. I can set the number of frequencies (1-20), the frequencies I want to adjust (5400, 8000 etc.) and Q factor, which is great.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Well, this is the classic example of when a software EQ can only do so much before hitting a brickwall.
  
 You can't have everything in audio unfortunately. Either get a different headphone closest to the type of soung signature you like (in this case, it sounds like an AKG K612) or just deal with it.
  
 You could continue to tweak your EQ further, but I generally believe that software EQ can't do much before completely altering a headphone's flavor into something else, which at that point makes the headphone meaningless.


----------



## hittnswitches

benbenkr said:


> Well, this is the classic example of when a software EQ can only do so much before hitting a brickwall.
> 
> You can't have everything in audio unfortunately. Either get a different headphone closest to the type of soung signature you like (in this case, it sounds like an AKG K612) or just deal with it.
> 
> You could continue to tweak your EQ further, but I generally believe that software EQ can't do much before completely altering a headphone's flavor into something else, which at that point makes the headphone meaningless.



 


I have the AT AD700x headphones, which have a great soundstage and already pick up the sounds I want. My setup is strictly for gaming. You're right though, I'm trying to get every ounce of audio I can sweeze out of a software eq to pwn, which I know aren't as good as hardware eqs, and only go so far. If I go external, I lose the surround and other benefits of the SBZ software for gaming, so this is the best option as far as I know. 

If anyone else has a better suggestion, I'm all ears!


----------



## benbenkr

hittnswitches said:


> benbenkr said:
> 
> 
> > Well, this is the classic example of when a software EQ can only do so much before hitting a brickwall.
> ...


 
  
 You could always get an external DAC + amp (yes more money) that has an optical input to go along with your SBZ and not lose any features you're using. This is what many has been doing on this thread.
  
 Otherwise, the more logical step-up from the AD700x is the AGK K612 Pro. The soundstage is a slight step back although detail remains largely the same, but what you get is that fun immersive factor that you are trying to get from an EQ now.


----------



## hittnswitches

Ok, 2 questions:
  
  - These amp/dacs have eqs?
  - They are great for gaming?
  
 Thanks


----------



## NCSUZoSo

benbenkr said:


> You could always get an external DAC + amp (yes more money) that has an optical input to go along with your SBZ and not lose any features you're using. This is what many has been doing on this thread.
> 
> Otherwise, the more logical step-up from the AD700x is the AGK K612 Pro. The soundstage is a slight step back although detail remains largely the same, but what you get is that fun immersive factor that you are trying to get from an EQ now.


 

 lol, a lot of us don't even have the daughter card inside the PC.  I have been trying to figure out a way to box it externally outside of the PC, the pin pattern is simple so that wouldn't be an issue if I need to custom make a longer cable.  It just ruins the inside of a PC for those of us that do have windowed sides and do care about cable management to have that wide cable draping over (GPUs normally).  I don't know why Creative thought that was a good solution, I would have kept looking for another way.


----------



## benbenkr

hittnswitches said:


> Ok, 2 questions:
> 
> - These amp/dacs have eqs?
> - They are great for gaming?
> ...


 
  
 1) Depending on the DAC, some comes with EQ.
 2) Good audio is good audio, that's it. Can be great for anything. It's not rocket science.
  
  


ncsuzoso said:


> lol, a lot of us don't even have the daughter card inside the PC.  I have been trying to figure out a way to box it externally outside of the PC, the pin pattern is simple so that wouldn't be an issue if I need to custom make a longer cable.  It just ruins the inside of a PC for those of us that do have windowed sides and do care about cable management to have that wide cable draping over (GPUs normally).  I don't know why Creative thought that was a good solution, I would have kept looking for another way.


 
  
 Uh... I'm talking about the *Z*, not the ZxR....


----------



## hittnswitches

Cool, thanks ben.


----------



## MaxKohler

meduseld said:


> CS:GO
> 
> this video demonstrates the problem, and i talk about all surround softares.
> 
> ...


 
  
  


fegefeuer said:


> did you setup "snd_legacy_surround 1" either via config or autoexec.cfg?


 
 I just tested this and it happens with snd_legacy_surround 1 or 0, doesn't matter which. Switching between 1 or 0 does effect which angles it happens at though.
  
 Pretty sure this is unique to CSGO. I've used 5.1 in CSS for many years.


----------



## jiiteepee

Too much reading in this thread so ...
 Q: On another forum someone stated that there's disturbing hissing sound when card is set to work in 16-bit mode? One ZxR review stated that the hissing sound with low impedance headphones is improved. Any experiment in this 'issue' ?


----------



## benbenkr

Omni is $60 on Amazon right now. That's a rather good deal.


----------



## OnePotatoArmy

Guys, I am currently running a Philips X1 with a creative Z.
  
 Is there a logical upgrade, which I can do? I want to increase the audio quality


----------



## MaxKohler

onepotatoarmy said:


> Guys, I am currently running a Philips X1 with a creative Z.
> 
> Is there a logical upgrade, which I can do? I want to increase the audio quality


 
 Magni amp. http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00CICPMA6


----------



## OnePotatoArmy

maxkohler said:


> Magni amp. http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00CICPMA6


 
 They are not purchaseable in austira :/


----------



## MaxKohler

onepotatoarmy said:


> They are not purchaseable in austira :/


 

 From anywhere or just Amazon? You can purchase from amazon.co.uk or no?
  
 Have you seen these? http://www.head-fi.org/t/534479/mad-lust-envys-headphone-gaming-guide-update-4-17-2014-akg-k612-and-k712-pro-added-edits
  
 http://www.overclock.net/t/1014902/ocns-most-recommended-audio-products/0_50
  
 There are some other amps you can look into.


----------



## hittnswitches

So I'm thinking about an external amp for my SBZ. I have no problems with the card but I want to maximize the quality of audio when I game to hear footsteps etc. 

So, to get better audio quality, which of these options should I choose?:

1) DAC/AMP - Should I run an optical to a DAC/amp, bypassing the Z's dac and amped HP jack? I can still take advantage of the Zs surround and EQ, but will an external DAC/amp perform better than the Z's?

2) AMP only - run from the amped HP jack into another amp, perhaps a Behringer. I hear external amps actually improve sound quality, but the audio signal gets amped twice. Not sure of any implications there.

3) Stick with the Z as is because the first 2 options won't make any difference at all.

Any feedback would help a lot, thanks.


----------



## genclaymore

1 will work just enable stereo mix to optical in adv features. it will then send the card features to the exteral device.


----------



## ChrisKr

Being a long-time reader here, i finally felt the need to register to share my impressions of the ZxR 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.
  
 I previously owned an Xfi-Gamer and and Essence STX, Headphones have been upgraded in the time being, actually using Phillips Fidelio X1 (which i like quite a lot as a "better DT990" for games and movies...quite funny and bass-heavy, but still very clear sound).
  
 I always liked and used the surround virtualizations for games and movies and recently, reading an few opinions here and on other forums, i had the impression that SBX Surround might actually be better than Dolby HP on the STX.
 So i finally bought an ZxR...
  
 1.) Installation/Drivers: No Problems at all and in fact, i like the CP very much. Don´t have any crackles, pops or whatever and dpc latency is very low, no matter what i´m doing. Tbh, i never had any problems  in the past with X-Fi/STX drivers, but just wanted to mention it.
  
 2.) Stereo sound with music: Didn´t expect to really notice a difference to the STX, and i didn´t. Of course i didn´t have two PC´s with both cards installed available and i can only compare before (STX) vs. after (ZxR) and probably one might find some minor differences when listening to both card simultanously, but in all in all...both very good sounding cards for listening to music (as to expected).
  
 3.) Surround virtualization with headphones...now this is where i expected the ZxR to perform better than the STX...and it does, and then some more .
 When i first fired up some games with SBX Surround activated, i had do double-check its really on...not because i missed positional sounds, but because the sound quality was like was using the STX in stereo mode w/o Dolby HP.
 SBX Surround really manages to pull of very clear positional audio with an great feeling of immersion without sacrifing sound quality like CMSS-3D (tin-canned sound) or Dolby HP (reverb all over the place) do.
 For the last few days i´ve been listening again and again to my currently installed games (e.g. Borderlands 2, Outlast, Diablo III, Metro:LL, Skyrim, Dishonored, Shadow Warrior) and movies over and over again and (at least for my ears) SBX Surround is way ahead of any other surround virtualization in the sense of combining very good and natural sound with great positional clues and and overall feeling of immersion.
  
 tldr; even if you´re believing in "stereo all day long and all surround virtualisations are evil"..try out SBX Surround .


----------



## OnePotatoArmy

I also have the X1, would you recommend the ZxR  over the STX even when the price is higher?
  
 How does music sound on the headphones, what are you listening too?


----------



## ChrisKr

onepotatoarmy said:


> I also have the X1, would you recommend the ZxR  over the STX even when the price is higher?
> 
> How does music sound on the headphones, what are you listening too?


 
 Music...almost everything..from Pet Shop Boys to Slayer, except for classic music 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  
 As i said, i didn´t notice any difference between both cards regarding music in stereo. Maybe there is a very slight difference, but you probably would need two pc´s with both cards installed and switching over again and again to spot the difference.
 So...if you mainly use the card for music, you won´t gain anything by switching over to the ZxR.


----------



## NCSUZoSo

Anyone looking for more from a headphone Amp/DAC, this is what I went with.  I use it at night and my ZXR during the day (see my sig).
  
 http://www.amazon.com/AUNE-T1-Amplifier-Standard-Version/dp/B00CHIJYGE
  
 You just need to swap that tube. the stock EH Tube is awful when compared to mid-high range NOS tubes.


----------



## OnePotatoArmy

ncsuzoso said:


> Anyone looking for more from a headphone Amp/DAC, this is what I went with.  I use it at night and my ZXR during the day (see my sig).
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/AUNE-T1-Amplifier-Standard-Version/dp/B00CHIJYGE
> 
> You just need to swap that tube. the stock EH Tube is awful when compared to mid-high range NOS tubes.


 
 How is the aune compared to the zxr?
  
 I am looking for an upgrade to my creative z


----------



## NCSUZoSo

Sorry I never answered your question, but it's pretty much impossible and I think these two pictures will tell you why:


----------



## itsDanny

In terms of sound quality, does the ST/STX win anywhere in that regard?
  
 I'm panning up between the ST/STX and the ZXR as I have both the ST and the ZXR, one of which I will sell, but I'm not sure which to pick?
  
 Any comments?
  
 Thanks


----------



## germanium

itsdanny said:


> In terms of sound quality, does the ST/STX win anywhere in that regard?
> 
> I'm panning up between the ST/STX and the ZXR as I have both the ST and the ZXR, one of which I will sell, but I'm not sure which to pick?
> 
> ...


 

 The ST/STX is slightly better sounding out of the box but the ZXR has more easily obtained potential than the ST/STX series with only minor modification.


----------



## itsDanny

germanium said:


> The ST/STX is slightly better sounding out of the box but the ZXR has more easily obtained potential than the ST/STX series with only minor modification.


 
  
 Appreciate the prompt response.
  
 When you state 'minor modifications', are you referring physical modifications or modifications through the use of software?
 If the former, do you need to have significant experience or... is it just being prudent during the entire process?
  
 May I also ask why the ST/STX is slightly better sounding out of the box? Don't they use the same DAC as the ZXR? So may I ask what other specifications makes this so?


----------



## hung031086

hi i just bought a sound blaster z, i have a problem with it that i cant use the what u hear, when i turn it on, my headphone has no sound at all except a really loud echo, anyone know whats wrong is it ?


----------



## germanium

itsdanny said:


> Appreciate the prompt response.
> 
> When you state 'minor modifications', are you referring physical modifications or modifications through the use of software?
> If the former, do you need to have significant experience or... is it just being prudent during the entire process?
> ...


 
  
 Yes I am referring to physical modifications. Some soldering is required & also one needs space on the back side of the card to fit the much larger capacitors that I use.
  
 Even though these 2 cards are similar both spec wise & parts wise there are differences such as the placement of the coupling capacitors which by the way I eliminate electrically from the circuit.. there is also a difference in the placement of power supply caps around the DAC. On the ST/STX there seem to be only 2 caps connected to the VCC L & R pins & the ZXR there is most definitely 3 caps so that all VCC pins are taken up with power supply caps that are close to the DAC. There may be one last VCC power supply cap for the analog supply that is behind the DAC where all the digital power supply resides but was not sure due to the layout  on the ST/STX cards. Knowing where that third VCC analog power supply cap is critical to getting the best sound where on the ZXR due to placement it is very easy to find. This is the cap that once bypassed restores the warmth to the sound while retaining the incredible detail of the obtained with the other 2 cap bypasses. I bypass the VCC power supply caps with large value metalized film caps as well as the opamp power supplies with even more capacitors all on the back side of the card which is why you need room above the card inside the computer. I used a total of 7-12uf  metalized film caps for the modifications.


----------



## NCSUZoSo

lol just link him to the mod thread:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/705284/germaniums-sound-blaster-zxr-mod-thread


----------



## BrightCandle

I am using a modmic 1.0 and I get  a lot of noise on the line. I have to limit the boost to +20 just to keep the noise reasonable but it also means its a bit quiet. I am wondering if there is a reasonable solution, like can I use a microphone preamp to boost the mic signal so I don't use the soundblaster amplifier? If so what would people recommend?
  
 Is there another way to fix it perhaps? A circuit I can use to boost it or change the impendence etc so that it behaves better with the soundblaster Z. Not really sure how to go about solving it but I do want a solution as I used to have lovely mic input on my Xonar and while I prefer SBX pro its a shame the mic circuit seems so terrible.


----------



## domoaligato

brightcandle said:


> I am using a modmic 1.0 and I get  a lot of noise on the line. I have to limit the boost to +20 just to keep the noise reasonable but it also means its a bit quiet. I am wondering if there is a reasonable solution, like can I use a microphone preamp to boost the mic signal so I don't use the soundblaster amplifier? If so what would people recommend?
> 
> Is there another way to fix it perhaps? A circuit I can use to boost it or change the impendence etc so that it behaves better with the soundblaster Z. Not really sure how to go about solving it but I do want a solution as I used to have lovely mic input on my Xonar and while I prefer SBX pro its a shame the mic circuit seems so terrible.


 
  
  
 I have a modmic 2.0 and have not had this issue.
  
 try this please.
 open your start menu and type sound
 listed should be the control panel\sound icon choose that.
 click on microphone and then click properties
 choose the advanced tab
 clear both check box's for exclusive mode (allow applications to take exclusive control of this device and Give exclusive mode to applications priority)
 click apply and ok
 choose the Communications tab
 under When windows detect communications activity
 choose "do nothing"
  
 I would suggest also making the exclusive mode changes to your playback device under the playback tab as well to reduce crackling and popping sounds.


----------



## hittnswitches

Hey all,
  
 I just ordered a pair of LME49720HA opamps and picked up a few DIP8 adapters today. I'm new to modding, and wanted to know which of the (2) JRC or (2) LM swappable opamps on the ZXR affect the headphone out? I use the card 100% for gaming and wanted to see if the LME49720s improved sound clarity.
  
 Thanks.


----------



## BrightCandle

domoaligato said:


> I have a modmic 2.0 and have not had this issue.
> 
> try this please.
> open your start menu and type sound
> ...


 
  
 Alas my settings on this are identical to above, I have already messed around a lot with all the various settings I feel could impact this. From all the CrystalVoice settings, all the microphone boost and volume settings and everything under the sound tab. I have gone through pretty much everything I can think of from a software perspective, I seriously suspect its a hardware issue on the SBZ.


----------



## TsukiNick

Just sold my Sound Blaster Z, picked up a Asus Xonar DGX just as a cheap alternative.  The DGX has much better surround sound positioning, feels a lot more realistic than the Sound Blaster Z.  The microphone seems to have less static with the same amount of gain.  I'm really impressed with the DGX overall.  If you are debating between these two cards I really would learn to the DGX.  Even if these were the same price I'd pick the DGX.  The only thing is the Asus Software isn't as user friendly IMO.  But dolby headphone is a lot better than SBX


----------



## genclaymore

Different people prefer different surround solutions between the different card's, you might like Dolby headphone but some one else won't and there are people who like SBX surround or CMSS3D Headphone over it and the other way around too, There is no better option its all in the ear of the beholder.  All 3 of them work better when the windows speaker settings are set to 5.1 for Z series , 7.1 for Xonars and X-FI's. With the same being set in the game too as it wont work correctly if you keep it on 2 channel.
  
 The main reason why people grab the Z is for it analog output's and the headphone amp that better then the one that's on the DG/DGX. If you are using optical modi like I think you are, Then most people will not be using a external dac with the Z and the analog sound signature of the cards will come into play and they will pair different with different headphone's and people ear's. Unless they want the Z software suite then it be up to the person rather they like the software suite or not as people ears are different then each other.  I had a DGX my self and dolby headphone did do a good job but it did it with certain headphones and certain games same with CMSS3D headphone.


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

Exactly it will differ a lot with various people, this soundblaster Z series doesn't work well for me either, the soundstaging/surround/positioning in particular doesn't have me impressed at all, finally decided to pick up a STX II to hopefully have better results, otherwise back to onboard. xD

 Shame that there's so little players in gaming oriented soundcards, feels like there needs to be existing more options than ASUS or Creative. I know there's more brands but those cards are very outdated by now.

 I'm still lurking this thread from time to time hoping for a miracle 3rd party driver fixing my woes with SB Z series.


----------



## Radical_53

Maybe it's a subjective thing, maybe it depends on the headphones and/or the games that are being used. The Z, to me, has the best and most exact positioning I've heard to this date. It's very easy to pinpoint enemies in games.
  
 You're right about the low numbers though. It seems like many people are playing without sound, or while listening to music, or without any attention to sound sources & quality at all.


----------



## MaxKohler

radical_53 said:


> Maybe it's a subjective thing, maybe it depends on the headphones and/or the games that are being used. The Z, to me, has the best and most exact positioning I've heard to this date. It's very easy to pinpoint enemies in games.
> 
> You're right about the low numbers though. It seems like many people are playing without sound, or while listening to music, or without any attention to sound sources & quality at all.


 
 What games are you playing and what cards are you comparing with?
  
 For me, the ZXR's positioning was a downgrade from an xfi xtremegamer in CS 1.6 and CSS. However, the audio it produced for music/videos was fantastic. It made my $20 speakers sound better than my av40's do with an TiHD.
  
 @rpgwizard what games and cards are you comparing the Z's positioning with?


----------



## NCSUZoSo

I have owned a Creative Sound Blaster Live!, Creative Audigy2 Platinum Pro and Auzentech XFi Prelude and once you do the available upgrades (opamps) and do the mylar cap mod, there is no other sound card out there that can touch the high resolution sound and air openness that the ZXR can achieve.  It is an impressive card, but a little high on the price (the mods are going to be decently expensive based on which opamps you choose, the mylar mod only cost $30 or so from ERSE).  I wish they would sell just the main card on the ZXR by itself, I have never even used the daughter board, lol.  I am looking at running the daughter card externally.


----------



## Radical_53

maxkohler said:


> What games are you playing and what cards are you comparing with?


 
  
 Games are mostly first-person types, ranging from the typical Call of Duty & Battlefield games to things like Skyrim, Metro or Dishonored. The cards I've been using were mostly Creative-based. Among the last cards, before I got my ZXR, were the Titanium HD, Auzen X-Fi Home Theater HD, Forte 7.1 and Prelude.


----------



## LilDeE

Hi all, I have a Creative ZXR sound card which I've been using with a set of Altec Lansing ADA995 5.1 PC speakers. I've recently been offered a set of Monitor Audio V10 x 4 plus a Monitor Audio V20 center speaker. Would this be a worth while upgrade to my current set up replacing my existing satallites? Could I add a different sub (e.g. bk xxls400) to the system at a later date without having to buy an AV amp?
  
  
Tia


----------



## itsDanny

NVM
  
 EDIT:
 May I ask what different setting(s) do you guys have the Crystalizer on for various uses?


----------



## benbenkr

itsdanny said:


> NVM
> 
> EDIT:
> May I ask what different setting(s) do you guys have the Crystalizer on for various uses?


 
  
 Off.
 Yes, off. Just off.
  
 Crystalizer is stupid.


----------



## itsDanny

benbenkr said:


> Off.
> Yes, off. Just off.
> 
> Crystalizer is stupid.


 

 O-K, great thanks. I heard from certain reports that it's suggested to be enabled for certain movies (esp. those with an abundance of explosions) for a better viewing experience. But nonetheless thanks I'll keep it in mind.


----------



## Fegefeuer

No, ignore such suggestions. Crystallizer also messes with spatial information.


----------



## itsDanny

fegefeuer said:


> No, ignore such suggestions. Crystallizer also messes with spatial information.


 

 Great, thank you for that.
  
  
 Another query I had was with the Sound Blaster Control Panel, in the CrystalVoice pane, what other recording devices can you select apart from the one in the ACM?
  
 USB recording devices don't seem to work (they aren't available to select from)... (attempted with a USB headset mic and a AT2020 mic)
  
 Any ideas?


----------



## germanium

itsdanny said:


> Great, thank you for that.
> 
> 
> Another query I had was with the Sound Blaster Control Panel, in the CrystalVoice pane, what other recording devices can you select apart from the one in the ACM?
> ...




You will not be able to select any usb recording device or output device from the Creatives control panel as they aren't part of the sound card itself. You can do so though in the windows sound control panel as that controls all sound devices regardless of manufacturer.


----------



## PurpleAngel

Creative Sound Blaster ZxR Versus Onboard Audio  
 http://hothardware.com/Reviews/Creative-Sound-Blaster-ZxR-Versus-Onboard-Audio/?page=1#!bcUKv4


----------



## itsDanny

germanium said:


> You will not be able to select any usb recording device or output device from the Creatives control panel as they aren't part of the sound card itself. You can do so though in the windows sound control panel as that controls all sound devices regardless of manufacturer.


 
  
 I'm definitely aware of that. I just wanted to use it for its FX features, any ideas on how to use it with another mic option?


----------



## Nitrius

Is it normal with the ZXR card that the windows speaker setup defaults to 5.1 Surround when you have set the SB Control panel to Headphones?


----------



## MaxKohler

nitrius said:


> Is it normal with the ZXR card that the windows speaker setup defaults to 5.1 Surround when you have set the SB Control panel to Headphones?


 
 Yes, that's what you want for the best quality sound.


----------



## Nitrius

Care to





maxkohler said:


> Yes, that's what you want for the best quality sound.




Care to explain that a bit more? My headphones are only stereo.


----------



## MaxKohler

nitrius said:


> Care to
> Care to explain that a bit more? My headphones are only stereo.


 
 Creative takes the 5.1 channels from windows and uses it to create stereo surround sound which results in superior sound vs if you set windows to headphones.


----------



## SaLX

purpleangel said:


> Creative Sound Blaster ZxR Versus Onboard Audio
> http://hothardware.com/Reviews/Creative-Sound-Blaster-ZxR-Versus-Onboard-Audio/?page=1#!bcUKv4


 
 Nice review, thanks for the link Purple. The meme that onboard is as good as discrete get's slightly blown out of the water here, but I agree with the reviewer's verdict that the Z is all you need really. 
  
@RPGWiZaRD - you still not sold your ZxR yet!!


----------



## Nitrius

maxkohler said:


> Creative takes the 5.1 channels from windows and uses it to create stereo surround sound which results in superior sound vs if you set windows to headphones.




Hmm i see. What about when am listening to stereo music, i don't suppose the creative drivers color the music in anyway?


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

salx said:


> Nice review, thanks for the link Purple. The meme that onboard is as good as discrete get's slightly blown out of the water here, but I agree with the reviewer's verdict that the Z is all you need really.
> 
> @RPGWiZaRD - you still not sold your ZxR yet!!


 

 I've not, I've been too lazy to actively try to sell it, should instead try to sell it in a local forum but been too lazy to set up a thread for it.

 I've got a STX II now too and seems like I will return to the onboard. While the STX II sound-wise fits my tastes & setup a lot better the soundstaging *surprise surprise* isn't as good as my onboard when using my particular config I've found to be working best with the Realtek.

 I was using the STX II straight for like 5 days, listening to music, mastering tracks and gaming to get a good idea. Then switched back to onboard and what do ya know. the soundstaging did stand out as better quite immediatly. I don't really like Dolby headphone or the Z-series surround config etc as I prefer more natural sound and the onboard somehow provide a lot more realistic, deep, clear accurate positioning of sounds when all effects and stuff are disabled and you just rely on the 5.1/7.1 speaker setting. The only slight difference sound quality wise I notice is mostly the resolution in the mids, otherwise the bass + highs compare suprisingly well, I can definitely live with that but I have a hard time accepting worse soundstaging/positioning on the what is supposed to be highend gaming soundcards. The difference was clear when firing up for example Far Cry 3. I could clearly hear the cars coming from the distance and very well position all the firing and vehicles and voices, easily pinpointing to the right direction. When I played with the STX II, the positioning became a bit confused in a gunfight I thought and wasn't 100% clear on the directions. I've tried all possible configs on the ASUS & Creative card but it doesn't get equally good with any setting.

 Is it really too much asked to get a better audio solution than onboard!? Sometimes I hate my ability to having to test all possible settings/configs and listen to changes in sound in order to determine what _truly_ works best. I'm not the guy to read guides and stuff, I decide for myself. That gets me into trouble like this when I happen to find something working in a software way particularly well that unfortunately a product with better hardware doesn't do equally well in the software department.


----------



## lolwatpear

did creative ever add gain options to the sound blaster Z?  I sold my card awhile back, but I'm thinking of buying it again.  For some reason, this was the only card that didn't have gain options which caused me some issues.


----------



## MaxKohler

nitrius said:


> Hmm i see. What about when am listening to stereo music, i don't suppose the creative drivers color the music in anyway?


 
 I'm not sure. Someone more knowledgeable would have to comment on that. You could test to see if you can tell a difference. The difference in games is pretty noticeable.


----------



## NCSUZoSo

nitrius said:


> Hmm i see. What about when am listening to stereo music, i don't suppose the creative drivers color the music in anyway?


 
  
 Yes drivers can affect the sound signature depending on what changes from current to new in the drivers.  Many people with X-Fi cards run PAX drivers due to their improved sound quality.


----------



## Nitrius

I was thinking 





ncsuzoso said:


> Yes drivers can affect the sound signature depending on what changes from current to new in the drivers.  Many people with X-Fi cards run PAX drivers due to their improved sound quality.




I was thinking more in the direction of, when windows speaker setup says 5.1 surround, i doesn't try to upmix the music to 5.1 surround as well? If that's even possible.


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

nitrius said:


> I was thinking
> I was thinking more in the direction of, when windows speaker setup says 5.1 surround, i doesn't try to upmix the music to 5.1 surround as well? If that's even possible.


 

 On Z-series it won't sound much different the way Creative handles speaker config but on my onboard it brings a positive effect like bigger soundstaging / clearer imaging / more around/out of my head which I like and why my ZxR is sitting in the bookshelf.


----------



## NCSUZoSo

I have noticed something a little annoying about my setup listed in my profile.  The Yamaha RX-V863 has the center channel always active and if you aren't playing something in surround it just plays a low sound, but gets louder as you turn up obviously.  I know my SLI Volt-Modded 660 Ti's have something to do with it even though they are insanely efficient, because for example when playing ESO when I am loading into a new zone or loading the game on sign in I will hear that center increase in noise as soon the graphics hit vs. 2D loading screen.  I am assuming this is EMI interference, the weird part is Creative put a copper ground bar across the ZXR separating digital from analog.  Is there anything you can do about something like this?  Also does it matter the sound card has to be right on top of the primary GPU the only other option is to put it on the bottom and block part of the secondary card's cooling.  Anyone have any idea on this?


----------



## germanium

ncsuzoso said:


> I have noticed something a little annoying about my setup listed in my profile.  The Yamaha RX-V863 has the center channel always active and if you aren't playing something in surround it just plays a low sound, but gets louder as you turn up obviously.  I know my SLI Volt-Modded 660 Ti's have something to do with it even though they are insanely efficient, because for example when playing ESO when I am loading into a new zone or loading the game on sign in I will hear that center increase in noise as soon the graphics hit vs. 2D loading screen.  I am assuming this is EMI interference, the weird part is Creative put a copper ground bar across the ZXR separating digital from analog.  Is there anything you can do about something like this?  Also does it matter the sound card has to be right on top of the primary GPU the only other option is to put it on the bottom and block part of the secondary card's cooling.  Anyone have any idea on this?


 

 it's called a ground loop issue.


----------



## Orion1991

Which one of all three would be best for me ? I will use it with *5.1 speakers *and *headphone/mic* combo,
  
 My main usage is 40% gaming, 40% music and 20% movies.
  
 also some questions:
 -Do all of them come with a *headphone amp* ?
 -Do all of them come with a *Beamforming Microphone* ?​ -can I connect both my *speakers and headphone/ mic* at the same time ?
 -What does the *Audio Control Module *do exactly and is it useful?
 - Is there any options that are better with a *100$ budget *? (Like the *Xonar DX*)
  
 I am fairly new to soundcards and reading 150 pages to get the information sounds a bit hard for me haha, so excuse my laziness and my ignorance about soundcards, and I would love some feedback. Thank you 
  
 Notes : -I am using *Asus Xonar DS *and I am not happy with it.
            -*Sennheiser HD 558* headphones with *Labtec LVA-7330 Noise mic*
*              -Creative Inspire T6100 Speakers.*


----------



## MaxKohler

orion1991 said:


> Which one of all three would be best for me ? I will use it with *5.1 speakers *and *headphone/mic* combo,
> 
> My main usage is 40% gaming, 40% music and 20% movies.
> 
> ...


 

 ZX = Z with ACM.
 ZXR has a better DAC and AMP.
 The Z's mic is better than the one on the ACM.
 The control module lets you plug and unplug things right there on your desktop instead of going into the back of your computer. It also gives you a volume knob. In my opinion it is useless since it's not only been reported to degrade sound, but there is no need for it since you can plug both speakers and headphones and mic into the back at the same time and switch between them using the software.
  
 I opted to go for the Titanium HD instead because the ZXR's surround sound positioning is inferior (in mine and other's opinions).
  
 You'll want to consider whether your headphones need/benefit from an amp. Some people are buying the Z and using an amp with it.
  


> -can I connect both my *speakers and headphone/ mic* at the same time ?


 
 Yes.


----------



## Orion1991

maxkohler said:


> ZX = Z with ACM.
> ZXR has a better DAC and AMP.
> The Z's mic is better than the one on the ACM.
> The control module lets you plug and unplug things right there on your desktop instead of going into the back of your computer. It also gives you a volume knob. In my opinion it is useless since it's not only been reported to degrade sound, but there is no need for it since you can plug both speakers and headphones and mic into the back at the same time and switch between them using the software.
> ...


 
  
 First thank you for the answers, second the ZXR and the Titanium HD are a bit too expensive for me :/ and since the control module isn't exactly useful, you think my best guess is getting the sound blaster Z (around 100$) ? or maybe there is something better in the price range, also does the Z have Dolby technology to get surround sound in games ?
  
 also a friend told me to just get the Asus xonar DG with the headphone amp, a lot cheaper and not a big difference between that and the Z model, I honestly have no experience and would love some help.


----------



## MaxKohler

orion1991 said:


> First thank you for the answers, second the ZXR and the Titanium HD are a bit too expensive for me :/ and since the control module isn't exactly useful, you think my best guess is getting the sound blaster Z (around 100$) ? or maybe there is something better in the price range, also does the Z have Dolby technology to get surround sound in games ?
> 
> also a friend told me to just get the Asus xonar DG with the headphone amp, a lot cheaper and not a big difference between that and the Z model, I honestly have no experience and would love some help.


 

 I don't know much about the asus cards but I wouldn't recommend the Z because of the subpar positioning in FPS games for these series. I would say either listen to your friend or find an xfi xtremegamer on ebay for under $60.


----------



## Orion1991

maxkohler said:


> I don't know much about the asus cards but I wouldn't recommend the Z because of the subpar positioning in FPS games for these series. I would say either listen to your friend or find an xfi xtremegamer on ebay for under $60.


 
  
 I see, I dont get the hype for this sound card if the  positioning in FPS games is subpar...what do you guys think about USB sound cards btw, like  the Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi


----------



## genclaymore

maxkohler said:


> I don't know much about the asus cards but I wouldn't recommend the Z because of the subpar positioning in FPS games for these series. I would say either listen to your friend or find an xfi xtremegamer on ebay for under $60.


 

 But then the result is different for different people as one person might like CMSS3D and another Dolby headphone or SBX surround headphone. That what make it hard for alot of people to pick between the 3 as they wont know if they like it til they try it.


----------



## Orion1991

can I get more opinions on my situation please ?


----------



## Silverwind

maxkohler said:


> I don't know much about the asus cards but I wouldn't recommend the Z because of the subpar positioning in FPS games for these series. I would say either listen to your friend or find an xfi xtremegamer on ebay for under $60.




Why do you say subpar? I think SBX really helps with games that support 5.1. It makes the game more immersive. I use a soundblaster OMNI which is a usb version of the Z.


----------



## MaxKohler

silverwind said:


> Why do you say subpar? I think SBX really helps with games that support 5.1. It makes the game more immersive. I use a soundblaster OMNI which is a usb version of the Z.


 

 Because it's a $250 card that performs worse in surround sound positioning than a $60 xtremegamer.


----------



## Radical_53

That's down to personal taste, it seems.


----------



## Silverwind

maxkohler said:


> Because it's a $250 card that performs worse in surround sound positioning than a $60 xtremegamer.




I think you are confusing SBX (sound processing) with ZxR (sound card). My $60 usb OMNI does SBX processing, as well as the entire soundblaster z line.


----------



## MaxKohler

silverwind said:


> I think you are confusing SBX (sound processing) with ZxR (sound card). My $60 usb OMNI does SBX processing, as well as the entire soundblaster z line.


 
 That's not really relevant unless you could use both SBX and CMSS3d on the ZXR. But you can't. Therefore the ZXR's surround sound positioning is inferior to the xtremegamer because the ZXR uses SBX and the xtremegamer uses CMSS3d.


----------



## genclaymore

maxkohler said:


> That's not really relevant unless you could use both SBX and CMSS3d on the ZXR. But you can't. Therefore the ZXR's surround sound positioning is inferior to the xtremegamer because the ZXR uses SBX and the xtremegamer uses CMSS3d.


 

 But it all up to the person tho, as not ever one will share thet same results as you did with sbx and CMSS3D, Just because you don't like it, do not mean every one doesn't. Because that all it really matter's, is what sound good to the said person. As there many people that perfer one over another.  I used all 3, CMSS3D headphone, Dolby Headphone and SBX surround and I find my self preferring SBX over CMSS3D and of course I had it config correctly in windows control panel to 7.1 with X-Fi and games and 5.1 with SBX surround headphone. As I didn't like what CMSS3D headphone did to the bass as it made it had too much kick and for me SBX did a better job in FPS games that I tried, in fact I got done playing Xcom Fps game with it and with SBX surround on 67%, it did a great job thru my audio setup, which the X-FI XG CMSS3D didn't and this is my results,like i said every one results will be different because of the Source/amp and headphones that there using which will also effect thet way all 3 will perform, as for sound cards like ZXR and STX etc, the default op-amps sound signature will come into play too. My Bifrost uber and my little dot mK 2 2.0 with The tubes I using and my Headphones gave me results that different then yours if you get what I trying to say.


----------



## Orion1991

maxkohler said:


> Because it's a $250 card that performs worse in surround sound positioning than a $60 xtremegamer.


 
I was talking about the sound blaster Z which goes for 80$ ---> SBX technology
and the Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi XtremeGamer also goes 80$ ---> X-Fi CMSS-3D technology
  
Anyone care to compare these too because I googled a bit and I have no idea tbh I am not too good with these stuff lol.
  
it says in your profile you play cs 1.6, I also play cs:go so you probably know exactly what I want, bare in mind I listen to a lot of music so I don't want it only for gaming, also I plan to switch between my headphones and my 5.1 speakers.
  
  


silverwind said:


> Why do you say subpar? I think SBX really helps with games that support 5.1. It makes the game more immersive. I use a soundblaster OMNI which is a usb version of the Z.


 
  
 Can you comment more on the USB sound card, I was told that they are inferior in general to normal sound cards, also can I connect both my speakers and my headphones to the sound card.


----------



## genclaymore

the Z card let you plug in both 5.1 speakers and headphone's while the X-FI Gamer would make you unplug your speakers, unless you plug your headphone thru the case and that wouldn't be a good idea. The Z has benefits tho like it headphone amp in case you get headphones that benefit from being amp. If your in the USA, amazon and ebay usually have the Z for 45-49 used, Even the omni is around the same price used, which I got mine for.


----------



## Orion1991

so in my case the Z would be the better choice here ?


----------



## genclaymore

orion1991 said:


> so in my case the Z would be the better choice here ?


 

 yea since you mentioned you wanna plug in both your 5.1 speakers and your headphones at the same time.Without having to unplug one and another.


----------



## benbenkr

maxkohler said:


> That's not really relevant unless you could use both SBX and CMSS3d on the ZXR. But you can't. Therefore the ZXR's surround sound positioning is inferior to the xtremegamer because the ZXR uses SBX and the xtremegamer uses CMSS3d.


 
  
 It's relevant.
 Also, don't go around speaking as though CMSS3D > SBX = FACT. *It isn't*. That's your opinion and that's your taste, which is all cool and dandy but it *IS NOT* a fact.
  
 I'd personally say DH > CMSS3D too, but that's just because I like DH more and it doesn't mean DH is better.


----------



## SoFGR

meduseld said:


> CS:GO
> 
> this video demonstrates the problem, and i talk about all surround softares.
> 
> ...


 
  
17 JUL 2014 - 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





[OVERPASS]
 - Fixed the A box not having its clip brush enabled.
 - Fixed some unfair peek and boost spots around the map.
 - Added some clip brushes to smooth movement.
 - Fixed the sign decal on the bank.
 - Thanks AreUhungry.

[GAMEPLAY]
 Fixed a surround spatialization issue caused by not handling angle wraparound properly at 0/360. ( thanks derpylurker )

[MISC]
 - Fixed a networking regression with M4A1-S when fired by a player who is not the owner of original item.
 - Fixed M4A4 | Howl showing as the wrong quality in GOTV streams.
 - Fixed decay lerp on non-default crosshairs, crosshairstyle 5 now decays linearly and is now frame-rate independent.
 - Fixed equipped collectible items not networking correctly for other players.[/quote]

 

fixed !


----------



## XIX47

Hello, I own the SB Z version and you guys may be able to assist me with my dilemma:
  
 I have been having issues lately with some "crackling" or "popping noises" from listening to my FLAC tracks on Foobar2000. Here is my audio setup:
  
 Headphones: AKG K-712 Pro
 Headphone Amp: O2
 Soundcard: Soundblaster Z
 Speakers: Old Altec Lansings (barely use anymore).
  
 I have adjusted the db volume to -10 but it still occurs on certain parts of the certain tracks. This occurs even My old CD/DVD drive is partially broken, so I bought an external version and it works well so far. I have tested the tracks with my speakers and crackling/popping noises are still present, so that rules out the Headphones & AMP. The CDs were bought new in their original shrinkwrap, so it is doubtful they are the source of the crackling sounds.
  
 So, it appears it is the SB Z that is making these distortions. I have the O2 amp connected to the SB Z using the Headphone Out line.
  
 Is there any suggestions on why the SB Z is most likely making these sounds, and what changes are needed to fix this issue? Windows says I have the latest drivers for the SB Z, so I do not believe the drivers are at fault here.
  
 Thanks.


----------



## genclaymore

Don't use the headphone out when your using the O2 amp, plug the O2 amp into the Line out on the card. Because it sound like the issues is coming signal being double ampped.


----------



## itsDanny

A miscellaneous anomaly I found just now is that when playing audio from dictionary.com for a particular word or even Google, the sound is only being output to the left side of my headphones. However, with 'Speakers' selected in the 'Speakers/Headphones/ panel in the Control Panel, the sound is being output fine, it's just the headphones.
  
 Any ideas why this is occurring and how to remedy this?


----------



## genclaymore

Is one of the pins bent on the headphone cable, or is it in all in the headphones. or the connection on the sound card.


----------



## SaLX

genclaymore said:


> Don't use the headphone out when your using the O2 amp, plug the O2 amp into the Line out on the card. Because it sound like the issues is coming signal being double ampped.


 

 He won't get surround that way if I'm not mistaken genclaymore (you must've forgotten!) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





. Quite a few people have the O2 connected via the headphone out on their SBZ and I've never read of anybody having this same problem, even though they are double amping.
  
 Maybe it's a latency issue??


----------



## genclaymore

salx said:


> He won't get surround that way if I'm not mistaken genclaymore (you must've forgotten!)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I had double amping cause popping and crackle for me when I ran the DGX to my little dot MK 2 and I had to change it from headphone to stereo in the output to fix it so i figure it may be a reason why it doing it to him. But then I forgot the Z hp amp chip is dynamic and work differently then the cards with gain settings.  Yea I think I could be thinking of the Recon3D I had which did put sound out both headphone's and line out. Actually my sound blaster omni does send the audio signal out of both Line out and Headphone amp out besides the option to do it thru toslink as I just tried it,so maybe the Z will do it too. You could be right and It could be Latency issue , he might has to raise it or lower it but I also had it with the X-FI as well but only when I had it on asio but not when I had it on Wasapi.


----------



## NCSUZoSo

You definitely should not be double amping; if you read anywhere online you will see the same thing.  I think the only reason you do it is if the first amp is not strong enough to drive the headphones you are using.
  
 I just spent 3 days trying to fix my ZXR and come to find out it had nothing to do with it.  I had a bad cable driving the rear channels and it made me assume I had a driver issue.  I will say unless you have a damn good reason to upgrade your drivers on the ZXR, leave them alone.  The latest drivers froze on uninstall and I had to manually remove everything..  I put the drivers found on the CD back on the card and still had no rears, lol.  That is when I took a multi-meter to the output to check it and it was fine, that is what lead me to the cables since my Yamaha RX-V863 is showing 5.1 and it's in Pure Direct mode.
  
 Long story short, it's not always the software or even the card causing a problem.


----------



## XIX47

genclaymore said:


> Don't use the headphone out when your using the O2 amp, plug the O2 amp into the Line out on the card. Because it sound like the issues is coming signal being double ampped.


 
  
 I plugged the O2 amp into Line out and the crackling/static noises are still there, though I no longer have to adjust the DB on Foobar2000 any longer.
  
 I am not quite sure I understand what Latency is, or how I can fix it if it is indeed very high. Is there any software to detect the level of latency on my PC?


----------



## NCSUZoSo

Are you using something to bypass the windows audio stack in foobar2000?  For example the WASAPI plugin.  If so try all the possibilities (Push, Event, and normal Windows), if you aren't using something then try it.  It might not fix this, but when you do fix it you'll want it and who knows, maybe it will fix it out of chance.
  
  
  
*BTW, does anyone have this?*
  
 http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Pink-Floyd-The-Division-Bell-Blu-ray/104533/
  
*Can you PM me if you do, I'd like to talk about it in detail considering the cost.  I already have the two available Pink Floyd Immersion Sets and I know what to expect.  I want to find out if this lives up to the same type of quality. *


----------



## XIX47

ncsuzoso said:


> Are you using something to bypass the windows audio stack in foobar2000?  For example the WASAPI plugin.  If so try all the possibilities (Push, Event, and normal Windows), if you aren't using something then try it.  It might not fix this, but when you do fix it you'll want it and who knows, maybe it will fix it out of chance.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I did download the WASAPI add-on for Foobar2000, and I did not hear a difference unfortunately. The music I am listening to is classical from the Star Wars Trilogy & LOTR. I am not sure what else I can do; the crackling is frequently present in the SW tracks while it occurs maybe only in one LOTR track based on my limited testing. 
  
 I will say that with Genclaymore's advice of undoing the double amping, the SQ is improved for both gaming and music, especially with the bass. I can switch to Stereo sound for music, and 5.1 Surround for gaming. Thanks Gen.


----------



## AvroArrow

twoears said:


> Yes you can and it works decent but I would recommend that dolby headphone instead, I think it works better.
> The way I have it setup is that I use the optical toslink out on the ZXR to my dac. So if I'm playing games I get all the soundblaster effects going out there.
> However - when I'm playing music I have foobar set to wasapi event and the toslink output so it bypasses all windows and sound blaster effects.
> It's great combo, best of both worlds without changing a single setting.


 
  
 I apologize if this isn't quite the right thread since it's more of a SB Z thread but has anyone got that above setup working on a X-Fi Titanium (SB0880)?  I'm trying to get either WASAPI or ASIO drivers in foobar to work with the SPDIF output of my X-Fi Titanium and all I end up with is a completely frozen Win7x64 box (requires reset/power button to get out of).  I can get DirectSound over SPDIF or WASAPI over speakers (3.5mm output), but not WASAPI over SPDIF.  It freezes the same when I try WASAPI with MediaMonkey player so I don't think it's a foobar2000 problem.


----------



## HFCOBRA

I know this has been asked in this thread before but I like getting just one more answer to my question.  I already did a search, but I would like to ask anyway.  
  
  
 I have a Xonar Essence STX card right now.  I use it for both my HD650s and my PC360s depending if I am gaming or listening to music.  I have been thinking about getting the ZxR card so that I can try out their virtual surround sound in my games, but I would like to know that I am getting a little more for my money compared to the card that I already have.
  
 Does the ZxR have any other features over the STX?  I hear the quality for both is nearly identical.  How does the positional audio for games compare between the two?
  
 Has anyone here gone from an ST or STX to the ZxR?  Any impressions?


----------



## itsDanny

hfcobra said:


> I know this has been asked in this thread before but I like getting just one more answer to my question.  I already did a search, but I would like to ask anyway.
> 
> 
> I have a Xonar Essence STX card right now.  I use it for both my HD650s and my PC360s depending if I am gaming or listening to music.  I have been thinking about getting the ZxR card so that I can try out their virtual surround sound in my games, but I would like to know that I am getting a little more for my money compared to the card that I already have.
> ...


 
  
 I have come from the ST to the ZxR. Music is slightly better on the ST compared to the ZxR before any sort of tweaks. In regards to the virtual surround sound, it is great for me, but depending on your personal tastes, your experiences may vary...\
  
 Both of these cards beats my FiiO E17 though! Right now it's collecting dust...
  
 I'm listening through a pair of ATH-M50Xs btw.


----------



## Moomoomao

Hi guys,
  
 I am running Zx -> optical modi -> magni -> dt 880s. I wanted to have the schiit stack while preserving the SBX effects; however, I hear no changes when modifying settings in the control panel. When I press the play demo thing under SBX studio it also shows sound playing on speaker but not through optical.
  
 Any advice would be appreciated!


----------



## benbenkr

moomoomao said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I am running Zx -> optical modi -> magni -> dt 880s. I wanted to have the schiit stack while preserving the SBX effects; however, I hear no changes when modifying settings in the control panel. When I press the play demo thing under SBX studio it also shows sound playing on speaker but not through optical.
> 
> Any advice would be appreciated!


 
  
 Did you enable Play stereo mix to optical out under Advanced Features?


----------



## Moomoomao

I did :S


----------



## benbenkr

moomoomao said:


> I did :S


 
  
 And your default device? It needs to be Speakers/SBZ and NOT optical out.


----------



## Moomoomao

oh wow! I thought I had to set is as optical.
  
 Thanks a lot  its working now


----------



## ctwoe

I bought this card about a month ago, and I'm pretty satisfied with it. Great set of features and great SQ.

I have one issue though: it (Windows) reverts back to 5.1 (from Stereo) after each boot, so I have to manually change it every time I start my PC. 

I'm using headphones with the dedicated headphone output.

It's annoying and it baffles me that this is still an issue with Creative. I had similar issues with X-Fi, where no settings would stick at all.

Are there any known solutions or workarounds?

Thanks!


----------



## VeerK

If I wanted to get a replacement EMI shield for my ZxR, where should I look? Is it okay to run the Z series naked?


----------



## genclaymore

You could do make one your self if your handly with tool's, maybe you might find them on ebay. But I betting you might have to make one. Unless you can talk creative into sending you one.


----------



## Swordchan

Hello Guys. I'am having a hard time deciding which one I shall buy. It is between ZxR and Z. Money is not the problem.
I plan on buying high end headphones in a near future. Atm I got Sennheisser PC 360.
Is there a big difference between these two?
If I buy the zxr will I need to get 6.3mm cables to get the best possibly sound? Can I use 5.1 speakers with the zxr? Or only 7.1? Will the sound quality be worse If I plug the headset/headphones directly into the volume hub on the ZxR. Thanks. I hope someone can answer my questions:') //written on a phone.
And ofc... Is ZxR worth the extra $$?


----------



## genclaymore

the ZXR has connections for both .5.1 speakers and headphone's so you can plug in both at the same time.


----------



## Thaksis

Hello
  
 I've just bought ZxR(few days ago) and i'm using sennheissers PC360 for now. I don't know how much different they are from HD360 Swordchan, but i've tried them with hub and without - coudn't tell the difference, maybe on better cans there is more apparent effect...
  
 I've upgraded from onboard soundcard and can definitively say that sound quality have improved it's livelier, more rich it's really nice.
  
 I was slightly dissapointed with the two mics in the hub i read opinions that they work as intended and pick up sounds from the space before them... well... friends on voice comm heard dinner getting ready from kitchen two rooms away from mine so it didn't work quite good  I've played with the settings but to no avail. Also they complained about my voice getting slightly cut out and sounding different(and just plain bad) every time i spoke .  The only feature that worked (and really goood too) was noise cancellation. PC360 is a headset and the mic on it is VASTLY VASTLY better, i woudn't change it but the better cans i ordered don't have mic in a set so i was hoping for the solution provided by creative.
  
 And thus I have two questions:
 - Can anyone recommend good clip-on mic or desk one (for communication from room with other sound sources than my voice  )?
 - The headphones I ordered are 300Ohm HD800 and I know the first setting in soft is for 32 - 300 Ohm and the second is for up to 600Ohm cans, so I should use first one, but it's just on the egde of threshold, my question is - Is safe to check 600 Ohm settings with them just to see if it's worse/better  or would I risk frying them or sth?(my soul would shatter) Yeah i'm noob at this  Please if anyone could help with my concerns...


----------



## hittnswitches

The Z has a 600ohm amp with no lower ohm option, and lots of people use that with low ohm headphones with no frying issues. I have 38ohm headphones on a ZXR and I've tried both ohm settings with no probs. The 600 setting is louder, so turn your win volume down before you try it. Your headphones will be fine.


----------



## Swordchan

Thaksis. I wrote wrong hehe. I ment PC 360^^ looks like I'm going for the ZxR. And now while I'm on it.. Is the dt 880 600 ohm a good upgrade?

Or any other headphones for 200-400 dollars?


----------



## NCSUZoSo

veerk said:


> If I wanted to get a replacement EMI shield for my ZxR, where should I look? Is it okay to run the Z series naked?


 
  
 It is completely fine to run these cards "naked", look at how many sound cards before them (even high end (ie Auzentech)) had no plates on them.  Hell they even make back plates for these cards (or the ZXR at least) like a GPU has, lol.  It's all marketing with very little engineering even involved, sure it is possible the plate may protect the card from a little bit of interference, but if they REALLY wanted to do it right, there wouldn't be a hole in the damn thing to show us the Core3D chip (not like we can see it anyway once installed...)


----------



## VeerK

ncsuzoso said:


> It is completely fine to run these cards "naked", look at how many sound cards before them (even high end (ie Auzentech)) had no plates on them.  Hell they even make back plates for these cards (or the ZXR at least) like a GPU has, lol.  It's all marketing with very little engineering even involved, sure it is possible the plate may protect the card from a little bit of interference, but if they REALLY wanted to do it right, there wouldn't be a hole in the damn thing to show us the Core3D chip (not like we can see it anyway once installed...)


 
 Haha, true enough on the last point. My PSU is encased and grounded so I think I'll be fine there, and the motherboard and all else. I have my second 780 out for RMA, when it gets back I'll see if it makes any difference with or without EMI shield and if the USB cables nearby will cause any issue. You're most likely right, the reviews say it is useful and I'd rather it had the shield on in case I have to handle it for whatever reason. Maybe I will try to make my own, I'm not nearly as handy with metal as I am with wood.


----------



## x7007

Can someone suggest about SBX compare to DHTv4 ?  I have Xonar phoebus and I want a good surround , the SBX in FPS games sounds good as I heard from the youtube comparison.
  
 Please if someone could answer about this question. and is the ZXR really bad with all other surround CMSS3D and such ?


----------



## NCSUZoSo

The ZXR can't do CMSS3D, it was replaced.


----------



## x7007

ncsuzoso said:


> The ZXR can't do CMSS3D, it was replaced.


 
 ok that a short of an answer to what I wanted, because I need to know if it's worth for me to replace Xonar Phoebus with Creative ZXR Headphones Surround, the SBX seemed really good from the directional shooting and such.  Maybe it won't be good in movies and such cause it was meant for gaming, so what would be the other mode of headphone surround to use for movies ?


----------



## NCSUZoSo

The ZXR does better in directional movie audio than my Auzentech Prelude did, but I have no experience with ASUS sound cards.


----------



## x7007

So for the record, if I have DT990 600ohms which by it's own has soundstage in good quality and all the rest of bass, I like the xonar phoebus in MMG = movies/music/games ,  I heard people really like the quality of the phoebus but I don't know if they compare the quality of ZXR, like a lot of people said before about the differences in the SQ=Sound Quality.
  
 1. I am 1 inch close to order the ZXR, and I know I am suppose to connect directly to the Headphones Amp in the card and not the  Accessible Audio Control Module (ACM) cause it degrades the quality.
  
 2. Do you have a guide that someone did for best surround options , in the SBX I will only activate the SBX surround and not all the rest  ( Crystalizer , Bass , Dialog Plus , Smart Volume , cause using DT990 600ohms already is perfect with those, am I correct ?
  
 3. U choose Headphones in the control menu and 7.1 or only 5.1 is possible ?
  
  
 Is this all the things I need to do ?
  
 Asus said they are going to add  Sonic Radar II to the Xonar Phoebus , but god knows when, would it make it better surround to compare DHTv4 and SBX ? or it's just something bad.
  
 I would appreciate to get all answers so I could decide the final decision, meanwhile it seems close to buy.


----------



## Watchthemfall

Does anyone use AKG K612 with the headphone out on these cards? Is the amp good enough to drive them?
 Is there a huge difference in quality between what's built in and a dedicated amp? Any help is appreciated.


----------



## NCSUZoSo

I have to kind of step out of the convo when pure headphones are being discussed with the ZXR.  Although it sounds very impressive with all my mods, it still can't beat the Aune T1.  In other words I don't use headphones with the ZXR, only loud speakers.


----------



## x7007

ncsuzoso said:


> I have to kind of step out of the convo when pure headphones are being discussed with the ZXR.  Although it sounds very impressive with all my mods, it still can't beat the Aune T1.  In other words I don't use headphones with the ZXR, only loud speakers.


 
 Yes,, I remember now a lot of people said that ZXR can't handle DT990 600ohms well, but xonar phoebus does..
  
 I saw so many complaints about the Creative cards in Creative forums. 
  
 I want perfect Virtual surround and dolby doesn't give 100%..


----------



## unmeaty

Hello gentlemen (and ladies)
  
 I have a question that I can't seem to get a good answer to from Creative, and this looks like a great place to try my luck.
  
 I apologize if this has been answered in this thread already, I've looked through many of the pages but it's clocking in at 154 atm.
  
 I have the Sound Blaster ZxR that I recently installed in my desktop running 2 full range speakers and a sub out to an amp hooked to several transducers.
  
 I have a pair of JBL LSR2325P full range monitors hooked into the L/R RCA out and a Drayton Audio 100W amp running from the 3.5mm sub/center out via stereo to RCA adapter to power three small sub exciters.
  
 In applications using 5,1 natively everything works great. Games like Tomb Raider, Battlefield 4, etc. In stereo applications there is no signal sent to the sub. Things like music, YouTube, games with stereo sound, only go through the full range speakers, no signal is sent to the sub. I've tried all the settings I can find in Windows and Creative's software. I have the settings as 5.1 with two full range speakers and a sub with the center and rear speakers disabled.
  
 I'm using Windows 7 64 bit.
  
 Now here's the relevant part: I'd like to use my headphones (Audio-Technica ATH-M40FS) along with the sub woofer to power the exciters, but if I can't even get them to work with the two full range speakers in stereo I can't see that happening. Ideally I'd be able to use headphones with the Oculus Rift in Elite: dangerous and still have the exciters fire from the sub amp. Is this even possible?
  
 So here's what I'd like to know, if anyone has any insight:
  
 1) How do I get my sub to fire with Windows stereo applications since it's not a traditional 2.1 setup?
  
 and
  
 2) How do I use my sub alone with my headphones for gaming and music (to fire the bass exciters while still using headphones)?
  
 If you need any additional information I'd be happy to provide it, and thanks in advance for anyone who can help me out here.


----------



## NCSUZoSo

The Z Series is a little weird on the sub output vs. selecting full range speakers.
  
 I normally run Left/Right as full with surrounds as normal and use the bass redirect option in the Speakers/Headphones tab of Pro Studio (I would bet yours is unchecked).  If you want more sub you can hit the gain option or change crossover frequency.
  
 For some reason with the wrong combo of settings you will hear the bass fade in and out from the fronts back to the sub, this is normally with gain enabled on sub.


----------



## unmeaty

Thank you for the reply. I think I've tried that option, it's for fading the sub signal from the full range speakers to the subs using the crossover frequency, right? That whole setup confuses me, when you go into advanced options you can accomplish the same thing but the interface is just different. It's almost like they crammed two interfaces together into one software suite.
  
 So you have full range speakers and surround speakers in place? I ask because I'm about to add two rears / exciters to my haptic feedback chair.
  
 Can you get a sub signal from 2 channel stereo audio like music and movies? Or do they have to encoded with some sort of 5.1? I'm at work atm, I'll double check what you suggested when I get home. I appreciate the feedback.


----------



## NCSUZoSo

The only way I am aware of you can get a sub signal from a 2.0 source is by using bass redirection and whatever settings work best for frequency.


----------



## x7007

So some things in this forum don't get to be answered ? 
  
 So as far we concern what will be the different on the Phoebus that ZXR can't output the DT990 600ohms headphones ? Do I have better choice to go with instead of SBX and Dolby surround ? Will I be able to use external mixer with the Phoebus ?
  
 Thanks


----------



## PurpleAngel

x7007 said:


> So some things in this forum don't get to be answered ?
> 
> So as far we concern what will be the different on the Phoebus that ZxR can't output the DT990 600ohms headphones ? Do I have better choice to go with instead of SBX and Dolby surround ? Will I be able to use external mixer with the Phoebus ?
> 
> Thanks


 
  
 The Phoebus and ZxR use the same class of DAC chip (PCM179X) and the same headphone amplifier chip (TI 6120A2)
 So I would assume (?) they are roughly equal for driving headphones
  
 You might find some answers (Phoebus vs ZxR) on these threads
  
 Here is a forum/thread for the Phoebus
 http://rog.asus.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?136-Xonar-Phoebus-Sound-Cards
  
 Here is a forum/thread for Sound blaster.
 http://forums.creative.com/forumdisplay.php?f=6


----------



## x7007

purpleangel said:


> The Phoebus and ZxR use the same class of DAC chip (PCM179X) and the same headphone amplifier chip (TI 6120A2)
> So I would assume (?) they are roughly equal for driving headphones
> 
> You might find some answers (Phoebus vs ZxR) on these threads
> ...


 
 s
 Ok, so both of them can amp 600 ohms perfectly ? Anyone tried DT990 600 ohms specifically, or the  sennheiser 800 or 850 headphones .
  
 this is what I saw at Guru3d. - this is exactly what I wanted to remember and quote. 
  
  
   Quote:


 Originally Posted by *glfi* 


_I now own the Asus Phoebus sound card, I thought I change it to the Creative ZXR. Does it make sense? Will the audio quality improve? 

 I am afraid that Creative ZXR cannot drive Beyerdynamic T1 headphones properly because they are 600ohm headphones. I mainly play games and listen music (FLAC)._

 

 I wouldn't really do that, unless you can test the ZxR first and if you like it, get it without losing money. From what I understand, the ZxR struggles to drive 600ohm headphones properly, not sure if that's been fixed in newer revisions or not. But, if you can sell your phoebus for the same amount as the ZxR costs, and can return the ZxR if you don't like it, try it. But I highly doubt you'll get much more out of a ZxR.


----------



## x7007

No one here with DT990 600 ohm or sennheiser 800 with ZXR ?


----------



## PurpleAngel

x7007 said:


> No one here with DT990 600 ohm or Sennheiser 800 with ZXR ?


 
  
 Months ago I tried my DT990 600-Ohm on a Sound Blaster Z (not Zx or ZxR) and the DT990 600-Ohm was driven decently.
 So I would assume the ZxRs headphone amplifier would be better?
  
 Did you try asking on the Creative lab's own Sound Blaster thread?
http://forums.creative.com/forumdisplay.php?f=6


----------



## x7007

purpleangel said:


> Months ago I tried my DT990 600-Ohm on a Sound Blaster Z (not Zx or ZxR) and the DT990 600-Ohm was driven decently.
> So I would assume the ZxRs headphone amplifier would be better?
> 
> Did you try asking on the Creative lab's own Sound Blaster thread?
> http://forums.creative.com/forumdisplay.php?f=6


 
 I will but they might not have the best experience there, maybe not Hi-Fi headphones.
  
 How do you know  or compare a Sound Card (ZXR - Phoebus - STX II ) to  a dedicated AMP , in a words of "driven decently"  .  I mean what the differences you will hear ? that's the correct quesiton.


----------



## PurpleAngel

x7007 said:


> I will but they might not have the best experience there, maybe not Hi-Fi headphones.
> 
> How do you know  or compare a Sound Card (ZXR - Phoebus - STX II ) to  a dedicated AMP , in a words of "driven decently"  .  I mean what the differences you will hear ? that's the correct question.


 
  
 I like to use the word "decently" because it's a very generic description I can use when I can't really offer any better description.
 (my brain works best when it has a lot of time to think something over and come up with a "good" detailed answer)
 I do not own the ZxR, Phoebus or STX II (just original STX), so i can only loosely base my opinions on those cards because they really use the same headphone amplifier chip as my STX.
 I was fairly happy with my STX driving my DT880 600-Ohm and DT990 600-Ohm headphones
 The four sound cards come with the same class of PCM179X DAC chips, i do not think you truly best them until you spend $150 for an ODAC USB DAC (Sabre DAC chip)
 I consider my JDS O2 headphone amplifier a little better then my STX's amp, but the O2 costs $130 and offers a lots less features then a sound card.
 So that $280 (O2/ODAC) for getting hopefully better sound quality, more then you might be willing to budget, the Schiit Modi/Magni external DAC/amp seems to offer good sound quality for it's $200 price.
 When I wanted to improve over my STX, I spend $300 for a Audio-GD NFB-15.32 external DAC/amp
 (Technically I bought the NFB-15.32 for several minor improvements (like dual WM8741 DAC chips), over my STX).
 If you really want to drive headphone to their best, you need to be willing to spend the cash, external do offer better amplifiers, but it costs you.
 Another advantage of external is no "electrical noise" in the audio signal, so an external gives you a very "black' background.
 You can have "electrical noise" in your analog audio signal from an internal sound card, from being inside the computer case, but it might be just barely noticeable, if noticed at all, or never really notice the difference until you go external.
 To me a sound card is usually really good enough for the person who has a set budget, Creative and Asus try to offer the best they can, for a given cost to manufacture their cards.
 Creative and Asus have equal access to the sound card parts available in the world and they seem to share more parts with each other then they might admit, so maybe there is really only very minor differences between the cards.
 They do use difference main audio processors, SoundCore3D vs C-Media.


----------



## Swordchan

Just got the Q701 with the creative sound blaster z! I first tried with onboard soundcard. Damn the sound was so bad.
And arter that i installed the Sb Z. Damn! The difference is Huge from my sennheiser 360!


----------



## x7007

The big question is, is it possible to use the External DAC and have the SBX surround from a Creative Z series ?
  
 I understand what you say, but the big "Wanting" and "Money" is not a problem if it's not cost more than $1000 and if the quality will really have a difference.
  
 Again, I don't have any idea what DAC actually have in comon or what is different from each company, there are just too many, like cars.
  
 If you say 1 company or 1 model, I have only a choice to choose this, that's why I ask for recommendation.
  
 Thank you for the answers, but I still need a bit more information to really understand ^^


----------



## PurpleAngel

swordchan said:


> Just got the Q701 with the Creative Sound Blaster Z! I first tried with on-board sound card. Damn the sound was so bad.
> And after that I installed the SB-Z. Damn! The difference is Huge from my Sennheiser 360!


 
  
 Hopefully you disable on-board audio (in the BIOS), when you installed the SB-Z.


----------



## PurpleAngel

x7007 said:


> The big question is, is it possible to use the External DAC and have the SBX surround from a Creative Z series ?
> 
> I understand what you say, but the big "Wanting" and "Money" is not a problem if it's not cost more than $1000 and if the quality will really have a difference.
> 
> ...


 
  
 A Sound Blaster Z ($75-$85), connected (optically) to an Audio-GD NFB-11 external DAC/Amp ($355+shipping).
 Should provide you with really good headphone sound quality and gaming Win PC computer.
  
 http://www.amazon.com/Creative-Blaster-Beamforming-Microphone-SB1500/dp/B009ISU33E
 http://audio-gd.com/Pro/Headphoneamp/NFB112014/NFB112014EN.htm


----------



## Swordchan

purpleangel said:


> A Sound Blaster Z ($75-$85), connected (optically) to an Audio-GD NFB-11 external DAC/Amp ($355+shipping).
> Should provide you with really good headphone sound quality and gaming Win PC computer.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Creative-Blaster-Beamforming-Microphone-SB1500/dp/B009ISU33E
> http://audio-gd.com/Pro/Headphoneamp/NFB112014/NFB112014EN.htm


Will that increase the quality *alot*?


----------



## PurpleAngel

swordchan said:


> Will that increase the quality *alot*?


 
  
 Assuming you currently are using a Sound Blaster Z?
 There will be a noticeable improvement in audio quality.
 A few months ago I tried the SB-Z for a month.
 To me personally it's worth the improvement, I use the NFB-15.32, which is not considered to offer as much "audio detail" as the NFB-11.
 Might also depend on what headphones your currently using?


----------



## Swordchan

purpleangel said:


> Assuming you currently are using a Sound Blaster Z?
> There will be a noticeable improvement in audio quality.
> A few months ago I tried the SB-Z for a month.
> To me personally it's worth the improvement, I use the NFB-15.32, which is not considered to offer as much "audio detail" as the NFB-11.
> Might also depend on what headphones your currently using?



Yes the Z.
I recently got the Akg q701
So i can get a dag and plug it into my soundcard. I dont see how that work.
Will i still have all the sound blaster features like surround and so on. And gain better sound quality?


----------



## x7007

purpleangel said:


> A Sound Blaster Z ($75-$85), connected (optically) to an Audio-GD NFB-11 external DAC/Amp ($355+shipping).
> Should provide you with really good headphone sound quality and gaming Win PC computer.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Creative-Blaster-Beamforming-Microphone-SB1500/dp/B009ISU33E
> http://audio-gd.com/Pro/Headphoneamp/NFB112014/NFB112014EN.htm


 
 Ok, it's not seem expensive, I need to check if they deliver to Israel though :X , just 2 problems, after I connect like you say and I enable SBX, what should the options in the Creative control panel and the game, movie, music options should be ?
  
 If I use Pot Player I guess there should a hell of options to set before I could hear like I should.
  
 The settings is what confusing me, there are too many to think about, Lav Audio has it's own mixer , Pot Player has it's own Audio renderer options. 
  
 EDIT : yes they send to israel, how much tax did you pay ?  The big bloody problem is the tax 18% and the customs will reach to insane $450 minimum (over $375 there are customs charge ), I can't afford that much sadly, cause I could buy the ZXR with no tax and customs for $305.


----------



## PurpleAngel

x7007 said:


> Ok, it's not seem expensive, I need to check if they deliver to Israel though :X , just 2 problems, after I connect like you say and I enable SBX, what should the options in the Creative control panel and the game, movie, music options should be ?
> 
> If I use Pot Player I guess there should a hell of options to set before I could hear like I should.
> 
> ...


 
  
 When Audio-GD ships out the NFB-11, Audio-GD will claim a $100 value for the unit, with the shipper, so your import tax will be $18.
 As I live in the USA, there is zero import tax.
 I only tested the SB-Z for a short time, so I'm sure what to say about the settings.
 But whatever setting you would use for plugging the headphones into the SB-Zs headphone jack, would really be the same for optical output.


----------



## aer0pr0

hello everyone,
  
 i just bought a sound blaster z
  
 its really a big improvement over my onboard audio, no questions about that, both on maxvolume as well as for quality goes, and for gaming its also really good, sounds seems so much better now.. Im using it over headphones sennheiser hd518
  
 my question is, listening to music, i actually prefer turning the "sbx pro studio off", the music sounds more natural to me.. im no audiophile, not even close, and i dont know if turning this option off is really better or just my imagination. What config do you think is better for everyday use? i tried to tweak those sbx settings a little bit ( surround, crystalizer, crossover frequency) but still prefer turning it off


----------



## genclaymore

aer0pr0 said:


> hello everyone,
> 
> i just bought a sound blaster z
> 
> ...


 

 When it comes to music, it best to turn all of the SBX effects off, the good thing is you can make profiles for music and gaming so you dont gotta do the settings again.


----------



## NCSUZoSo

I only turn on SBX effects with music and turn them off on everything else (since most music is 2.0 or forced 2.1).
  
 There are no damn magic settings that anyone is going to post, try stuff and stay with what sounds best to you.


----------



## x7007

Did anyone figured the settings with SBX on in BF4 ? does it needed there, someone on hardforum said that it's best to play this game with SBX off.
  


> SBX isn't better than straight stereo in BF4. It might improve some games but so far I have not heard one that does.
> 
> Good stereo headphones + stereo source = best sound. The less steps you have in the chain the better.


 
  
 What I wrote there is 
  
ok, that's only in BF4 ? 

 But people usually choose Home Cinema + Stereo or Surround, I still don't understand if the Stereo is 2.1 and the Surround is 5.1/7.1 is it game processing engine or is it just the channel you for sound card.

 No one yet find the answer to this.

 If I go headphones SBX off and I want Stereo 2.1 from the game, do I set HomeCinema + Stereo, what will the surround do then ?

 If I choose with SBX On and I want surround, do I set HomeCinema + Surround, what will the stereo do ?

 It's bloody complicated


----------



## benbenkr

x7007 said:


> Did anyone figured the settings with SBX on in BF4 ? does it needed there, someone on hardforum said that it's best to play this game with SBX off.
> 
> 
> What I wrote there is
> ...


 
  
 Oh God.
  
 It's not complicated, you're just confusing yourself for no reason.
  
 Virtual surround is a subjective thing, so subjective that it is akin to preference of food. I can tell you that spicy food tastes amazing (assuming you don't like spicy food) and you MUST LOVE IT. You try it yourself, if you like it, you like it. End of story. Stop complicating things.
  
 How people play BF4 is their problem, not yours. There's no perfect setting. Just go with what sounds best to you, it's that simple.


----------



## x7007

I got the ZXR  , on the same volume 600 ohms it sounds weaker,, like there is almost no different between 32 ohms and 600 ohms, the Xonar phoebus did an awsome job with the headphone amp.
  
 I dunno, maybe because it's 32/300  - 600 , and the xonar has from 32 - 300 - 600 .
  
 Did anyone else felt that the ZXR is weaker on the volume ? I connected it to the ACM and it's louder than connected straight to the back of the card. it doesn't look like there is lesser quality, they might've fix that ?


----------



## Tugainuk

hey guys, im going to buy a pair of fidelio x1's, i currently own a soundblaster z and was wondering what is a good dac and amp to go with it so i can use the optical out of my soundblaster for the use of dolby virtual surround, not sure how it all works and how it all connects, any insight would be greatly apreciated


----------



## Swordchan

Like the guy above.
A good dac that i can plug into my Sb Z? That Will give an improvement in soundquality and all that buhbih.
I got a akg k712.


----------



## aer0pr0

isnt the internal  dac on the sbz already "good" enough?
  
 for sure an amp isnt needed, unless someone wants to get deaf, i think its dangerous listening so high volumes no?
  
 for me 60% already high enough on headphones


----------



## Swordchan

aer0pr0 said:


> isnt the internal  dac on the sbz already "good" enough?
> 
> for sure an amp isnt needed, unless someone wants to get deaf, i think its dangerous listening so high volumes no?
> 
> for me 60% already high enough on headphones



Allt of people are saying that an dac can imrove the quality


----------



## Tugainuk

thats right plus i want to be able to use dolby which i belive increses the virtual sound for games and music and i cant do that through the aped jack on my soundcards it has to go through optical, so im just wondering what would be a good dac/amp that will go well with my X1's and the other guy akg702's


----------



## benbenkr

Aune X1 Pro for the X1.
  
 Don't have a recommendation for the K702 though, as IMO the CS4398 on the SBZ/Zx/Omni actually fits quite well with the K702.
  
Also, one thing you guys have to understand is that a DAC isn't the biggest improvement to audio quality. If anything, you'd be hard pressed to hear a very significant difference anyways. More over, many games (especially multiplatform ones) aren't exactly recorded in the highest bitrates and in a proper studio either. You're not benifiting from a very high quality DAC.


----------



## Silverwind

tugainuk said:


> hey guys, im going to buy a pair of fidelio x1's, i currently own a soundblaster z and was wondering what is a good dac and amp to go with it so i can use the optical out of my soundblaster for the use of dolby virtual surround, not sure how it all works and how it all connects, any insight would be greatly apreciated




I would run off the soundblaster z amp and see how you like it. I am pretty happy with mine.


----------



## Tugainuk

silverwind said:


> I would run off the soundblaster z amp and see how you like it. I am pretty happy with mine.


 
 so you have jst the soundBZ on its own then ? if i may ask how are your settings ? like volume, sbx prostudio crystalize and all that


----------



## Silverwind

tugainuk said:


> so you have jst the soundBZ on its own then ? if i may ask how are your settings ? like volume, sbx prostudio crystalize and all that




I set SBX pro studio on when playing games, have it set at 35%. All other options like crystal voice or scout mode I leave off. You don't need the Dolby encoding unless you are sending 5.1 out the optical. Leave the Dolby encoding off. Note this is not the Dolby surround processing but Dolby digital 5.1 movie codec.


----------



## plath

How do I find out if I can use my case's front panel with my Sound Blaster Z? As I'd like to be able to have both my speakers and headset plugged in. Also I still have my Realtek onboard audio installed, should I remove it? I've already installed the Sound Blaster drivers.
  
 my case is a corsair carbide 200r.


----------



## PurpleAngel

plath said:


> How do I find out if I can use my case's front panel with my Sound Blaster Z? As I'd like to be able to have both my speakers and headset plugged in. Also I still have my Realtek on-board audio installed, should I remove it? I've already installed the Sound Blaster drivers.


 
  
 You computer case should come with a (front panel) cable inside it had can attach to the 10 pin (2X5) connector on the SB-Z card.
  
 As long as you disable the motherboard's on-board (Realtek) audio, in the BIOS, the Realtek should not interfere with the SB-Z.
 Guess you could always delete the Realtek software/drivers, just to be safe.


----------



## Tugainuk

oh ok didnt know about that dolby not being sorround then ... ty , well i have sorround at 65 atm and crystalizer at 55 and in my music it  sound so good, very happy with this headphones, compared to my sennheiser 598's they were dissapointing when it came to bass and overall the x1 are so much better ( to my tastes of course dont flame me  )  my soundblaster combos quite well with it i havent got refined ears i jst like my bass to ratle my brain and im happy, plus soundstage is very good in games


----------



## Evshrug

x7007 said:


> Did anyone else felt that the ZXR is weaker on the volume ? I connected it to the ACM and it's louder than connected straight to the back of the card. it doesn't look like there is lesser quality, they might've fix that ?



This is very curious, because the ACM doesn't have an amp of it's own... Basically, it works by taking the output of the soundcard and dialing down from that. I don't have a ZxR (I have the Omni), so maybe what is happening is the card detects the presence of the ACM (somehow), and instead of honoring the computer's volume setting is actually outputting the full Line-Out volume and you don't have the ACM turned down as low as the PC settings? That's my best guess without looking at your gear in person.




benbenkr said:


> Aune X1 Pro for the X1.
> 
> Don't have a recommendation for the K702 though, as IMO the [COLOR=545454]CS4398 on the SBZ/Zx/Omni actually fits quite well with the K702.[/COLOR]
> 
> [COLOR=545454]Also, one thing you guys have to understand is that a DAC isn't the biggest improvement to audio quality. If anything, you'd be hard pressed to hear a very significant difference anyways. More over, many games (especially multiplatform ones) aren't exactly recorded in the highest bitrates and in a proper studio either. You're not benifiting from a very high quality DAC.[/COLOR]



This^, especially about the DAC.

The DAC in the Z/Omni is already quite good, and the jump from low-cost built-into-the-computer-motherboard-DAC to a decent DAC like the soundblasters will be a bigger jump than any step up after that. You can do better, but you have to spend a significant amount of money to hear any significant change, and for the majority of GAMES you won't hardly hear any improvement.



silverwind said:


> I would run off the soundblaster z amp and see how you like it. I am pretty happy with mine.



And so am I with the very similar Omni. For longer gaming sessions (or even short sessions with Counter Strike) I like to EQ down 8-9 kHz band by a few decibels, but I find the Omni's amp to be a good sample of solid-state amping. Sometimes I plug a tube amp into the headphone jack, just because I like the coloration of tubes.




tugainuk said:


> so you have jst the soundBZ on its own then ? if i may ask how are your settings ? like volume, sbx prostudio crystalize and all that






tugainuk said:


> oh ok didnt know about that dolby not being sorround then ... ty , well i have sorround at 65 atm and crystalizer at 55 and in my music it  sound so good, very happy with this headphones, compared to my sennheiser 598's they were dissapointing when it came to bass and overall the x1 are so much better ( to my tastes of course dont flame me  )  my soundblaster combos quite well with it i havent got refined ears i jst like my bass to ratle my brain and im happy, plus soundstage is very good in games




I have my surround at 67% right now, but sometimes I like more. I find the Crystalizer makes sound "harder" and emphasizes treble, so I turn it off, fatiguing for me but maybe good for your ears and your Phillips X1. Sometimes I use a modest amount of Smart Dialogue because I like mids and sometimes the Frequency range of vocals get recessed behind other instruments, but that's a personal taste thing. When I had my Audio Technica AD700, I liked a bit of bass boost, but now with my AKG K712's I only (sometimes) use a bass boost at a very low crossover point, so it just boosts low low subbass. It's important for you to play around and find what you like best!

About Dolby surround... SBX makes headphone and speaker surround when those are plugged directly into the sound card, the Dolby Digital Live is only for outputting an encoded surround signal for a home theater receiver to power a 5.1 speaker setup. Nice feature but not the most common need for computer setups.


----------



## x7007

Hm, one thing I learned with headphone connection, does the volume change every time you unplug it and plug it ?
  
  
 Beacuse sometimes I have lower volume while settings and everything stays the same and only the physical contact. Maybe I didn't have it with the Xonar Phoebus because I didn't really unplug it much.
  
 Would it be better to use the 6.35mm Jack Plug Audio instead the 3.5mm, maybe this will make sure there won't be an issue ?
  
 http://www.amazon.co.uk/Adaptor-Premium-Quality-Headphone-Adapter/dp/B002JP6JEK/ref=pd_bxgy_MI_img_z
  
 I have the one that I got with the DT990 600 ohm, would there be any differences ?


----------



## NCSUZoSo

There should be no volume jump, the card should be at the same volume as the last time you used it (even when shutting down or restarting).


----------



## x7007

ncsuzoso said:


> There should be no volume jump, the card should be at the same volume as the last time you used it (even when shutting down or restarting).


 
 I wrote this on Overclock forum.
  
Hi,

I have a terrible urgent question because I don't know if something wrong or the ZXR is not as strong as Phoebus.

I bought the Xonar Phoebus , used it , and with 50% windows volume and set >600 ohm with DT990 600 ohm it was VERY LOUD, and I mean LOUD enough.

I bought ZXR now, because of SBX and such. but at 50% connected straight to the back of the card, or to ACM is very low compared. for example in NFS Rivals I barely hear the music/engine/nitros. With the Phoebus it was very loud.

Is something wrong here? or maybe it's because creative is 5.1 in window sound settings, and it makes the volume a bit weaker compared to just stereo ?
  
  
Do think that's the reason Phoebus felt louder ?


----------



## NCSUZoSo

Are you double checking windows volume (on the taskbar) to see if it is going as high as you think?
  
 That is one issue I have, for some reason Windows Volume (even when I turned it all the way up) is only actually at ~50% volume and I have to manually drag the volume bar back up to 100% and then I have the entire range again.
  
 Check that first.


----------



## x7007

ncsuzoso said:


> Are you double checking windows volume (on the taskbar) to see if it is going as high as you think?
> 
> That is one issue I have, for some reason Windows Volume (even when I turned it all the way up) is only actually at ~50% volume and I have to manually drag the volume bar back up to 100% and then I have the entire range again.
> 
> Check that first.


 
 Yes I did, I tried to play with the volume in all ways.
  
 When it's 100% it sound like the sound is far, not close to Xonar Phoebus. Phoebus and ZXR have too many different settings, it's hard to know what's causing it.
  
 The sound is harsh and muddy, did anyone felt it ? Did anyone moved from phoebus to Zxr ?


----------



## x7007

Ok from what I've found from all the threads are : Creative ZXR - DT990 600 ohm
  
*Connect ACM to the card headphones Input > Headphone to the ACM ( I didn't feel any quality degradation )*
  
*Use 24Bit 48000Hz --- Use 24Bit 96000Hz only if you want to use Crystalizer  for better up mix sampling *
  
*Set in windows to 5.1 > **Headphones Vol windows 67% ( Make sure Full-Range Speakers is always disabled at 5.1 and Stereo when using Headphones )*
  
*In Creative Control Panel  - Headphones - for me 600 ohm and Always set high gain box checked*
  
*SBX - 67% , people say less than <67% makes some sound disappear, higher than  >67% makes the precision/position hard to hear.*
*All other settings are disabled *
  
*Crystal Voice - I just enable ( smart volume default , noise redu, focus default )  and lowering the volume boost to 20% or 10%, keeping the microphone volume at >50%*
  
 The most important part in gaming ! the question
  
 Now what I wanted to ask is for example games that are 2.1 for some reason, NFS Rivals, because you don't have settings to change it and for some reason when using all the settings above. the nitros , engine and everything is just low/muffled and there is no positioning. That means in some games we'll need to use in windows speakers configuration to at Stereo ?


----------



## aer0pr0

i have a problem
  
 my sbz dont detect the headphones
  
 weather i have speakers or headphones plugged ( tested both rear and front panel), it only shows as "speakers" in windows 8.1
  
 i would like for the system to detect the headphones... i tried with different pairs of headphones and i have the latest sbz drivers...
  
 i think the sound would be better if headphones were able to be chosen in windows


----------



## x7007

aer0pr0 said:


> i have a problem
> 
> my sbz dont detect the headphones
> 
> ...


 
 What do you mean not detect ? in windows you don't see the headphones connection in Playback tab ? What does it say in the Creative Control Panel, just try to change stuff , does the speakers works ?


----------



## aer0pr0

yes they will both produce sound
  
 but, wether if i have the speakers plugged in the jack, or the headphones, windows will only show it as "speakers", and i heard the sound would be better if "headphones mode" was detected
  
 like this ,i took a print, this was taken when i unplugged speakers and plug headphones
  

  
 i cannot find an option for headphones anywhere..


----------



## NCSUZoSo

You are already on it, "Speakers" just means the sound card.  Now in Creative CP switch the headphone amp on.


----------



## x7007

aer0pr0 said:


> yes they will both produce sound
> 
> but, wether if i have the speakers plugged in the jack, or the headphones, windows will only show it as "speakers", and i heard the sound would be better if "headphones mode" was detected
> 
> ...


 
 This is OK, it's shown as Speakers for me too , don't worry about it.  just make sure you are connected to the Headphone Input in the Creative sound card. everything is fine.


----------



## untore

So i read in the thread there are problem with alchemy and csgo, I came here because side and back sounds have low to no sound volume at all, so there is no solution for proper surround sound with source games?
 Also is there a way to use scout mode with surround sound?


----------



## x7007

One thing I see about the SBX is for driving simulation, in the pre-set profiles they recommend SBX surround 20% and Dialog Plus is at 35%, maybe this will fix the sound issue I had with NFS Rivals ? 
  
Adventure and Action 55%  for example Splinter Cell , Rayman, Skyrim , Hitman , Fallout , Diablo , Sniper Elite
First person shooter 20%   Crysis , 
Real Time Strategy 32% SBX , Company of Heroes, Starcraft
  
Now First Person shooter is a hard call, cause there is Multi Player competition  in BF3-BF4-TF2 which anything they say could improve the actual positioning.  Scount maybe ? Smart Volume like fatality profile say ?  I mean the competition is the hard area.  In all profiles I disable EQ cause I don't have the nerves to try and set it correctly, eventually I could make things worse.
  
 And how much Surround for movies ? there is no profile for that.


So is it good guess to follow their recommended SBX settings ? the profile of course changes the EQ , Crsytlizer , Smart Volume too. I don't see my-self need to use crystlizer with DT990 600 ohm, so the important settings for specific games should be good EQ and SBX %.
Edited by x7007 - Today at 7:42 pm


----------



## Thetoroloco75

djinferno806 said:


> The difference is not the volume only. My DT 770 250 ohm on my z sounded totally different and anemic compared to when I bought my zxr. The zxr can definitely power 250 ohm cans sufficiently.
> 
> And the zxr does 50 mW into 600 ohm not 250 ohm. At 250 ohm it will deliver enough power for your DT 990. I wouldn't worry. The headphone amp in the z/zx can't put out the same power however I never had the distortion problem, that typically is a driver issue. The maxim headphone amp in the z only puts out 125 mW at 32 ohms so at 250 ohm it would definitely be below what's needed.
> 
> Best bet is to try your headphones on a different amp and see


 
 I happen to have a DT990 pro and my amp - dac is the audioquest dragonfly v1.2 with 125mW @ 32 ohm and it drives them perfectly, good to loud listening volume is reached with the volume half open...


----------



## NCSUZoSo

x7007 said:


> One thing I see about the SBX is for driving simulation, in the pre-set profiles they recommend SBX surround 20% and Dialog Plus is at 35%, maybe this will fix the sound issue I had with NFS Rivals ?
> 
> Adventure and Action 55%  for example Splinter Cell , Rayman, Skyrim , Hitman , Fallout , Diablo , Sniper Elite
> First person shooter 20%   Crysis ,
> ...


 
  
 Where did you get these numbers?  There is no way for anyone to know how all your equipment is going to sound together, like we keep saying in this thread over and over, there are no magic settings for anything.  There are definitely no "set game profiles" that are the golden ticket for everyone, that is the stupidest thing I have heard in this thread (nothing personal, I know you just read it and assumed they are correct).  You try multiple settings until you find the sound that is best to you, end of story.
  
 Also why would you turn on surround for movies?  Are your movies not in 5.1?  If not then I get it, but if they are it doesn't change anything when you turn on SBX Surround (literally nothing).


----------



## x7007

ye what i I meant is there are pre set profiles in creative control panel. they set it like that. hmm yes i am used to dolby surround for movies. but watching a 5.1 is not as a 5.1 game , wont I need it to keep it ?


----------



## NCSUZoSo

I need you to elaborate more on what you mean by "won't I need to keep it".


----------



## x7007

ncsuzoso said:


> I need you to elaborate more on what you mean by "won't I need to keep it".


 
 What I mean even if the Windows speakers is set to 5.1 I should still keep the SBX to be able to make positioning. Creative say it's good for movies and games, doesn't mean you need to disable it, what's Dolby Surround for if not for movies first and than games.


----------



## NCSUZoSo

So you are only running headphones, that is where I was confused.


----------



## icecool

Hi Im a noob audio guy here and i just wanna ask some questions
  
 I just bought an akg q701 and the creative omni but the omni doesnt seem to be giving the akgs enough power since most of the time I need to set the windows volume at 100% to have some good listening levels, so does that mean I would be better off buying an external amp?
  
 If I do need an amp, can I get an amp such as the O2 and connect the omni to the O2 and still get the surround effect?
  
 thank you!


----------



## genclaymore

icecool said:


> Hi Im a noob audio guy here and i just wanna ask some questions
> 
> I just bought an akg q701 and the creative omni but the omni doesnt seem to be giving the akgs enough power since most of the time I need to set the windows volume at 100% to have some good listening levels, so does that mean I would be better off buying an external amp?
> 
> ...


 

 Yes you can just plug the O2 amp into the rear of the omni into the RCA out. The omni sends the sound to all of the output's so you can still use the SBX effects.


----------



## icecool

genclaymore said:


> Yes you can just plug the O2 amp into the rear of the omni into the RCA out. The omni sends the sound to all of the output's so you can still use the SBX effects.


 
 So it will be pc> usb> omni> rca out (red and white) to 3.5mm input in the o2?


----------



## genclaymore

icecool said:


> So it will be pc> usb> omni> rca out (red and white) to 3.5mm input in the o2?


 
 Yea


----------



## quantum27

Hello,
  
 I'm looking to purchase a new sound card and my first "good" pair of headphones (Sony MDR-MA900). Does anyone have any experience with the Sound Blaster Z (not the Zx or ZxR) and these headphones?
  
 I searched both this thread and the MA900 thread and found a couple posts mentioning that because of the MA900s built in impedance control, the lack of impedance control in the Sound Blaster Z model isn't really an issue for the Sony headphones. I'm wondering if anyone has more information or personal experience with this. I'm not an audiophile by any means, but am looking for opinions if this is a sensible card to pair with these headphones. I'd rather not spring for the pricier ZxR if I really don't "have" to. (I'll be using this setup for equal parts gaming and music.)


----------



## PurpleAngel

quantum27 said:


> Hello,
> I'm looking to purchase a new sound card and my first "good" pair of headphones (Sony MDR-MA900). Does anyone have any experience with the Sound Blaster Z (not the Zx or ZxR) and these headphones?
> I searched both this thread and the MA900 thread and found a couple posts mentioning that because of the MA900s built in impedance control, the lack of impedance control in the Sound Blaster Z model isn't really an issue for the Sony headphones. I'm wondering if anyone has more information or personal experience with this. I'm not an audiophile by any means, but am looking for opinions if this is a sensible card to pair with these headphones. I'd rather not spring for the pricier ZxR if I really don't "have" to. (I'll be using this setup for equal parts gaming and music.)


 
  
 I plugged my 42-Ohm Audio Technica ATH-A900Xs into the SB-Z's headphone jack (22-Ohms) and to me the combo worked well enough.
 I've never heard of Audio Technica putting an "Impedance controller" in the A900X's headphones, so I would assume the MA900 would not have a noticeable issue with the SB-Z.
  
 You could up your budget a little and get an Asus Xonar DX sound card, used $60 and a FiiO E11K headphone amplifier, $60.
 The FiiO E11K's headphone output impedance is less then 1-Ohm


----------



## plath

Could someone please help me? I can't seem to get my 2.1 speakers to work with my Sound Blaster Z except in headphones configuration. Stereo, etc produce no sound. Using 8.1 and the latest Sound Blaster drivers. The speakers are just some old Harman Kardon HK395s

  
 oh and Thanks for the info PurpleAngel both the times before.


----------



## genclaymore

Did you plug your speakers into the line out and not the Headphone out.


----------



## gunxsword

I'm pretty new to low-mid tier audio and I bought meself a SBZ for gaming and Dragonfly 1.2 for music. It's quite inconvenient to switch between them until I found out about using 'What U Hear' /listen to this device function.
  
 I was wondering how the process is done. My primary concerns are:
 1. Unaltered audio playback when all SBZ effects are off (i.e. will PC -> SBZ -> USB DAC = PC -> USB DAC?)
  
 2. Will 5.1 channel VRS and all other Creative shenanigans (Crystlizer! Bass! Things!) performance improve/degrade when it's played back through a superior external DAC? (i.e. Schiit Modi/Bifrost or ODAC) using 'Listen to this Device'?
 (Does the audio chain become PC -> SBZ DSP [skips SBZ DAC]-> USB DAC?)
  
 3. My USB DAC is set to stereo 24 bit 44k playback. Do I set 'What U Hear' to 2 channel or 6 channel playback?
  
 I'm skeptical about the disadvantages of using such a setup. Surely there would be some kind of delay, lost quality or whatnot when audio is played back from a device through another device right?
 (A little bit of technical explanation behind what's happening would be great too)


----------



## quantum27

purpleangel said:


> I plugged my 42-Ohm Audio Technica ATH-A900Xs into the SB-Z's headphone jack (22-Ohms) and to me the combo worked well enough.
> I've never heard of Audio Technica putting an "Impedance controller" in the A900X's headphones, so I would assume the MA900 would not have a noticeable issue with the SB-Z.
> 
> You could up your budget a little and get an Asus Xonar DX sound card, used $60 and a FiiO E11K headphone amplifier, $60.
> The FiiO E11K's headphone output impedance is less then 1-Ohm



 


Thanks so much for the info. I decided to just go with the Sound Blaster Z and the Sony MA900 for now, and maybe look into amplifiers a little bit later. But that amp looks like a great value itself -- on my watch list.


----------



## plath

genclaymore said:


> Did you plug your speakers into the line out and not the Headphone out.


 

 It's in the headphone socket on the back panel.


----------



## x7007

Did anyone had weird high pitch noise when he talked ever on skype on random ? on Headphones connection straight to the card, while talking in skype in middle or at the very start. It makes all the sound go muddy,noisy,electric,pitchy. at the moment it happens people say they hear you weird, means its something on the whole card not just headphones amp. You hear them and everything else, music,sounds, very muddy and like really bad headphones, if you try to listen to music or something randomly there will be terrible non stop high pitch sound like really dead cat trying to sing but even worse.
  
 DT 990 600 ohm.
 It never happened with Xonar Phoebus
 Card is not sharing IRQ with anything
 It happened with non MSI mode and MSI enabled  
 Windows 7 x64 SP1
 DPC never went higher than 700 us and not even close when the noise happened
  
 I tried to change from 600 ohm to 32 ohm on the creative settings, it didn't change anything.
 I tried to change to Speakers and back to Headphones, it didn't change anything.
 Only Restart fix it.
  
 I don't know if it's something with the card, cause it's 2nd time it happened.
 I don't think it's bad card, cause it happens very randomly and always when Skype is opened or when I started a chat with someone. Never in Movies or games if I remember.
  
 Drivers or something else ?


----------



## quantum27

purpleangel said:


> I plugged my 42-Ohm Audio Technica ATH-A900Xs into the SB-Z's headphone jack (22-Ohms) and to me the combo worked well enough.
> I've never heard of Audio Technica putting an "Impedance controller" in the A900X's headphones, so I would assume the MA900 would not have a noticeable issue with the SB-Z.
> 
> You could up your budget a little and get an Asus Xonar DX sound card, used $60 and a FiiO E11K headphone amplifier, $60.
> The FiiO E11K's headphone output impedance is less then 1-Ohm



 


Hey PurpleAngel,

Would the FiiO E11K be a good choice with the Sound Blaster Z? I saw someone else recommend a Dragonfly 1.2 DAC but I like the fact that I could also use the FiiO with a portable device if I wanted. The reason for the Sound Blaster (instead of an Asus card) is I want the various effects for gaming.


----------



## Anarion

Something to consider: http://www.techpowerup.com/204717/creative-unveils-the-sound-blaster-e5-usb-dac-and-headphone-amplifier.html


----------



## NCSUZoSo

For that much money I would go with what I already have, the Aune T1.  Easy to modify and does an insane job for $200.  The most expensive part of the T1 is figuring out which tube you want to run


----------



## stvn758

I have an X-FI Titanium Champion series card in my PC, I was wondering if anyone uses the Optical S/PDIF In jack on their card for anything.  When you connect something, how do you hear it - I can't hear anything, the device I tried to connect is my TV Sky+ box which has a Toslink out. I have the Win7 Sound Settings and SoundBlaster, anything I need to switch on or configure, I'm stuck. 
  
 I can hear the sound when I connect it to my MDAC via a Toslink to Coax converter box, it cuts out every so often though. The two Toslink inputs on my MDAC are taken up by my CD players, so all I have is USB and two Coax.
  
 Thanks.


----------



## alv4426

You have to go into settings in the creative software (I forget the name) and click on input choose hear this or something like that. I know for sure it works though since I do use the optical input.
Edit:somehow missed the fact that you are not talking about a z series card that may be different on yours


----------



## x7007

Does anyone use Crossover Frequency when using headphones and 5.1 speakers ? I don't know how the bass should be . DT 990 600ohm / Logitech 5500
 Zxr . but it looks like using 120 hz makes some sound disappear so I guess 80 hz default should be selected.


----------



## Evshrug

^Crossover settings are for what frequencies to start sending audio to the subwoofer. If your sub has troubles producing higher frequency sounds, then yes you should lower the crossover point.

I use the crossover with headphones too, of course the headphones all just use one driver (no separate sub), but it lets me target the bass boost slider to just boost the low sub bass frequencies


----------



## stvn758

alv4426 said:


> You have to go into settings in the creative software (I forget the name) and click on input choose hear this or something like that. I know for sure it works though since I do use the optical input.
> Edit:somehow missed the fact that you are not talking about a z series card that may be different on yours


 
 Thanks, all the connections are the same I definitely have a what you hear box in the menu somewhere, assumed it was for a microphone. My instruction manual is very basic - even their latest cards make little mention of how to use it other than a diagram of a DAT player or PS4 plugged in to it.


----------



## benbenkr

I put my bass crossover frequency for my X1 at 20hz, simply because the X1 doesn't really extend that low (most of its bass derive from the 50-75hz region). That extra bit of sub-bass seriously makes the X1 sounds like a baby D7000, but with the wider soundstage advantage.


----------



## PurpleAngel

I just found out the Z series offers a software emulation of EAX 5.0.
Did the Z series always offer EAX 5.0 (software emulation) or was this something that Creative add sometime after the Z series come out?

I'm I right to assume the Z series EAX 5.0 is not intended for newer games, just for the older games?


----------



## AUserName501

purpleangel said:


> I just found out the Z series offers a software emulation of EAX 5.0.
> Did the Z series always offer EAX 5.0 (software emulation) or was this something that Creative add sometime after the Z series come out?
> 
> I'm I right to assume the Z series EAX 5.0 is not intended for newer games, just for the older games?


 
  
EAX has been dead for a long time and so is OpenAL.
  
 Sound processing hasn't been done on a sound card for a long time. It is all done on the CPU now.


----------



## goyetus

*----------------------------------------------------------------------------------*
*Help me please -  No PCM with spdif out ?¿?¿?*
*----------------------------------------------------------------------------------*
  
 I have a few questions about my Sound Blaster Z.   * I have readed all search for "PCM" in this thread*,  but I have not seen what im looking for.......
  
 Previous,  I was using a Asus D2 soundcard  connected with Optical Passthrought to a Pionner 819k Decoder.  All fine at this point......
 If I select "PCM" in asus panel,  the pionner displays "PCM 48"  or "PCM 96" ...........  and it remains displaying "PCM" all the time meanwhile im playing "music" or "sound"........
  
 Problem:
 In my new Sound Blaster Z ,   DTS works fine ,  it displays DTS in my external decoder.   Dolby great too......    but no way to send untouched PCM to my decoder  (For example,  a FLAC or Mp3) 
 I can only see "PCM" in my pionner  if  I test "48 khz , 96 khz" or similar  in  the Windows Speaker configuration   using the "TEST" button......
  
*Im not able to get PCM XXX in my pionner using  different software....*
*Tryed:*  FLAC  +  MPCH     FLAC+VLC    FLAC+FOOBAR   .......
*Tryed:*  Speaker out mode and Spdif mode 
 All the *SBX or effects are mutted* down also.
  
 I only want *"pure PCM" with spdif untouched by SoundBlaster Z"*   cause  im procesing it  with a external A/V 819k pionner decoder.......
  
 Any suggestions???????
  
 Thanks from the deep of my heart!!!


----------



## genclaymore

goyetus said:


> *----------------------------------------------------------------------------------*
> *Help me please -  No PCM with spdif out ?¿?¿?*
> *----------------------------------------------------------------------------------*
> 
> ...


 

 The option to send PCM stereo mix thru Spdif out is in the advance Features tab of the sound blaster Z panel.


----------



## goyetus

Thanks genclaymore  ,  I also tryed the stereo mix feature under the Sound Blaster Z  advanced options.......   no luck .
  
*My pionner only displays "PCM"  when testing sound  in "windows volume mixer >  SPDIF > Compatible Formats > Bitstream Speed > (44,1 , 48, 88,2 , 96) +   TEST BUTTON*
  
 The rest of the time,  I really dont know if im getting pure PCM unprocessed  like any normal  spdif passtrough.........
  
Also I have double checked all my pionner manual from start to end last 1,5 hours........   All is correct at Direct stream in  Optical channel 1 .......   (getting DTS, Dolby, DDL, etc  from Sound Blaster Z) .....  All is fine except for PCM......
  
Thanks for your help!   Im really anoyed about this. 





 
  
 EDIT:
  
 Tomorrow I will test  with more time  ASIO and WASAPI  with foobar  and other music software.......  this starts to angry me!!!    (I know It must be sending PCM ,  but,  why with xonar d2  it displays correct in my Pionner decoder,  and not with SBZ......  big treasure hunter)


----------



## benbenkr

Try this.
  
 Sound > Playback Devices > Set Digital Audio (SPDIF) SBZ to Default device.
  
 Select Digital Audio >  Properties > Supported Formats > Deselect everything in Encoded Format (usually DTS and DD are selected by default) > Enhancements Tab > Select 'Disable All Enhancements'.
  
 This is how I do it and I get PCM only playback and at anytime I want the SBX enhancements, I switch back to the Speaker output (line-out) with Stereo Mix option enabled.


----------



## goyetus

benbenkr said:


> Try this.
> 
> Sound > Playback Devices > Set Digital Audio (SPDIF) SBZ to Default device.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I tryed your suggestion,  no way,  still no "pcm" title in my display..... very rare.    
  
 I tested a few more options ,   for example,   if  I turn on "stereo direct"  ,  I see that a new device speaker appears on the Mixer.    It not have the same options as the normal "speaker" usually seen in the mixer.     You have to see the audio device window  when you set Stereo Direct  to  see how  Sound Blaster DELETE the old speaker device,   and  automatically  it setup a new Speaker device!   annoying!
  
 Im going to test ASIO and WASAPI to see if I get something     (This starts to remember me "lost" serie)
  
*THANKS benbenkr**!!!!*
  
  
*EDIT:*
  
Wasapi working perfect,  very high volume,  but no PCM on display 
ASIO 64 bits  not working.  Tryed in Foobar2000 ,   and I get no sound!   Driver seems to be loaded right,  ASIO Sound Blaster Control panel  is set to 20 ms.
  
Could someone test if ASIO is working for playing music in Windows 8.1?    
  
Drivers reinstalled ,  at least ASIO now works  (but only in Speakers mode,  not spdif mode.....)


----------



## Anarion

purpleangel said:


> [COLOR=333333]I just found out the Z series offers a software emulation of EAX 5.0.[/COLOR][COLOR=333333]
> [/COLOR][COLOR=333333]Did the Z series always offer EAX 5.0 (software emulation) or was this something that Creative add sometime after the Z series come out?[/COLOR][COLOR=333333]
> [/COLOR][COLOR=333333]
> [/COLOR][COLOR=333333]I'm I right to assume the Z series EAX 5.0 is not intended for newer games, just for the older games?[/COLOR]


It doesn't emulate anything, it's the real deal but done in software so no hardware offloading. Software EAX 5.0 support was added when Z series was released. X-Fi MB3 software supports EAX 5.0 now too.


----------



## RamGuy

Got the ZxR for my Sennheiser HD 650's today. What SBX Pro Studio settings are people using for optium audio in games?


----------



## genclaymore

ramguy said:


> Got the ZxR for my Sennheiser HD 650's today. What SBX Pro Studio settings are people using for optium audio in games?


 
 Setting windows speaker settings to 5.1 in the control panel and then setting the creative panel to headphones. I been using SBX Surround on 67% but you can give the default 46% a try and compare the two. The reason why you set windows audio panel to 5.1 but have the creative panel to headphone is so the SBX surround work correctly.  Also you have to set the game's in game audio output to 5.1 if it has it.


----------



## alv4426

I like the scout mode for gaming... unfair advantage but frak the competition.


----------



## RamGuy

genclaymore said:


> Setting windows speaker settings to 5.1 in the control panel and then setting the creative panel to headphones. I been using SBX Surround on 67% but you can give the default 46% a try and compare the two. The reason why you set windows audio panel to 5.1 but have the creative panel to headphone is so the SBX surround work correctly.  Also you have to set the game's in game audio output to 5.1 if it has it.


 
  
 Mine was set to 67% by default? What about Crystalizer, Bass, Smart Volume and Dialogue Plus?


----------



## Fegefeuer

67 is Default. Turn crystallizer, Bass, Smart Volume and Dialogue plus off.


----------



## genclaymore

I didn't know it was 67 by default on the Z's, for the omni it was 46 by default.


----------



## PurpleAngel

anarion said:


> It doesn't emulate anything, it's the real deal but done in software so no hardware offloading. Software EAX 5.0 support was added when Z series was released. X-Fi MB3 software supports EAX 5.0 now too.


 
  
 EAX 5.0 is hardware and software, as the hardware part of EAX is no longer there, the software is now doing an emulation of what the hardware did, it maybe just as good(?) as the hardware it replaced, but it's an emulation.
 Check Wikipedia


----------



## Mack-attack

ok I have a few quick questions...
 1) does the soundblaster z have an adjustable heaphone amp? If not will it be ok if im running 32 ohm headphones?
 2) can i plug in my 5.1 and heaphones in at the same time?
 3) how would the z compare to an asus dg?
  
 thanks guys !


----------



## RamGuy

I'm going to return my Creative ZxR.. It was going to replace my Asus Xoner Essence One + Creative Titanium HD (for DSP) solution and I find the headphone amp to actually be superior to the Essence One, it provides much wider and full audio compared to the Essence One and I suppose that has to do with the amp working better with my Sennheiser HD 650's.
  
 But sadly the DSP falls short to the Titanium HD any day of the week.. This new SBX Studio Pro is not comparable to Creative's previous CMSS:3D implementation, not by any stretch. The SBX Studio Pro seems to be a re-branded THX TruStudio which I never used on my Titanium HD because the surround virtualization doesn't compare at all.
  
  
 I guess I'm back to my Essence One + Titanium HD combo once again..  Not a bad combo, I just have to figure out what's causing the lacklustre gain as I suspect that has to be some setting or jumper of sorts. And I need to find a way to resolve that using toslink from Titanium HD to the Essence One makes audio notification getting lost in transmission at times, which is very annoying.


----------



## genclaymore

Did you set windows control panel to 5.1 along as games when you was using SBX on 46 or 67% with it set to headphones in the creative panel. I find if you don't do that when using SBX then it wont sound right.  Also it could be the op-amps that the E one is using in compare to the op-amps that installed on the ZXR which can effect the sound signature of the E one. Usually take a op-amp to realize that there was nothing wrong with the card just the op-amp it was using.
  
 I don't know its something on my end, but I had to plug the optical into my onboard optical out and use the omni's what u hear and send it out of my onboard optical just to get the correct volume, where plugging it directly to the omni and using the option had 50% volume. In fact I had that issue on my onboard too til i found newer drivers then what gigabyte showed on their site. Interesting thing is, The low Volume issue's didn't happen on a X-FI PCI or the DG/DGX, or on a Recon3D PCI-E. It just seem like it happens on any thing that just has a master Volume control and no Wave L&R mixer volume. I had it happen on a older motherboard but with ADI and a different external dac, its like I'am cursed. Because I don't see any one mention it any where.
  
 The sole reason I switched to the omni because I get bus noises when i use Both PCI and PCI-E sound cards. If I didn't want the creative SBX DSP and functions and working asio then I wouldn't even bother with it. But sadly I have a on-board audio that doesn't have any X-FI MB3 or SB cinema 2 support even tho the newest via VT2021 drivers mention it. Then on the top of it Flaky usb plugs, Make just wanna take this motherboard and throw it out the window.


----------



## Evshrug

Holy HOLY CRAP GUYS!!!!!!!
http://www.soundblaster.com/x7/





•PC/Mac/Console/Smartphone Host Mode compatible connectivity!
•Asychronous USB/Optical in&out/RCA in&out/Dual simultaneous Bluetooth connections/Stereo Speaker taps!
•Higher specs than the ZxR!
•Dolby Digital Live 5.1/7.1 digital decoding for consoles via Optical input!
•Swappable OpAmps!
•Built-in beamforming mics!

Just let that sink in a bit...


----------



## benbenkr

Horly sheeeeet!!!!!!!!!!
  
 Creative?! CREATIVE?! REALLY?! SERIOUSLY?! Console + PC?!


----------



## genclaymore

evshrug said:


> Holy HOLY CRAP GUYS!!!!!!!
> http://www.soundblaster.com/x7/
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Yea I saw that on guru3d, But it wont stop people from connecting dollar store speakers and headphones into it and it wont push them into getting more for their money. Now they should make another model which uses Vacuum Tube's  . Of course I wont be getting one, I already have the setup that i am happy with and instead of op-amp's, I have vacuum tube's.


----------



## x7007

If I have Logitech 5500, how exactly can I use X7 so it will do the digital surround and not the Logitech ?  I wonder how


----------



## genclaymore

Easy by plugging in the analog out on the X7 into the Z-5500 analog inputs.


----------



## Silverwind

I have to imagine a price similar to the zxr for this guy. Are these specs superior to the Zxr? I am using headphones on a pc.


----------



## x7007

genclaymore said:


> Easy by plugging in the analog out on the X7 into the Z-5500 analog inputs.


 
 Console analog ? ps3


----------



## genclaymore

x7007 said:


> Console analog ? ps3


 
 Connect the X7 5.1 analog output's to the Z-5500's 5.1 analog input's,This way you getting the benefit of the X7 components so it wouldn't go to waste.  Then plug the game console's optical into optical input's connection on the X7. The X7 will Decode the Dolby Digital or DTS signal and send it out into your speakers.For your computer usage you can use the USB input on the X7 and i sure there prolly a switch or a remote of something for changing the input's.


----------



## haejuk

I just ordered myself a refurbished ("re-certified") Z off Newegg for $45 (ends today if you are interested). 
  
 Anyway, is anyone else using the optical out to a modi/magni stack?  How does it sound compared to straight out of the card itself?  I will be using AD700 (will probably be fine straight out of the card), JH13 (probably won't be fine and the cable is too short), and possibly LCD-2 (though I might sell that along with my old amp, definitely would at least need an external amp for this).
  
 Also, it looks like that new SBX7 is going to retail for $399.99.


----------



## genclaymore

When you are using optical, all the sound card will be doing is sending it software and dsp functions to the modi which will then be doing all the work. the Z will just act as a Digital transport device into the modi optical. Which is useful if you want to use the gaming functions while still using the external dac.


----------



## haejuk

That was my original plan, which is why I got the Z instead of a higher end card.  I still wanted something good for music, but with the added DSP for gaming and movies.  I just didn't order the magi or modi yet.  I don't have really high hopes for the internal amp on the Z honestly, but at least leaving out the external DAC is a possibility.


----------



## alv4426

The Zxr has a pretty good amp in it. I am actually using it right now for my T1 and hd650 (temp while I find a "better" one) but I can live with this system just fine.


----------



## kiwikozo

So I have an Asus Maximus VII Hero z97 mobo. There is an issue with the onboard sound, it hisses when you try to record. I was forced into getting a soundcard, but was planning to anyway.
I own 1 x ATH-M50 and 1 x Sennheiser PC320 Gaming headset

I bought the Original Sound Blaster Z - £70 the red one, and when I recorded I heard static whenever I spoke. I disabled onboard sound in the mobo settings, nothing really fixed it so I sent it back.
I then bought the Sound Blaster Z from Amazon, the OEM one. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Creative-PCI-E-Sound-Blaster-Soundcard/dp/B009S1NTUU/

Now I saw somewhere that if it had gold caps on then it was higher quality and if it was black then it wasn't. What amazon shipped me is not as shown in the picture. They are black.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/pmuzkystno8fjnu/z%20sb.jpg?dl=0
This is not what was shown in the picture. I think I will return this because of it. As these are poor quality as to what is advertised.


Getting to the biggest issue:
When I use my Sennheiser PC320 headset, i just sound worse. Even with the smart volume, audio echo, mic boost... Sometimes It's okay, but then I start to hear static after every word when I record.

Another HUGE issue is all of a sudden things get distorted, so voices get very deep and sounds just go crazy! This happens mostly when I switch between the gaming headset and my ATH-M50s. This requires a restart and gives a splitting headache if I have headphones on.

The sound when I listen normally is fine, most of the time.

I had my old laptop with a creative sound blaster sound card, with the same settings and I tried it + I sound much much better. There is an issue with this sound card, not with my headset. Can this be fixed with some software tweaks or no?

So I'm in a massive dilemma, what can I do? I tried the Creative sound blaster 5.1 and that gave me horrid microphone quality. I need to fix this issue ASAP.

Please help me to achieve clear, crisp, loud microphone quality with no issues! What should I do? Eveything is updated to the latest driver. It's in PCIE slot 1, I've tried in different slots too and I've disabled the Realtek sound completely. I could get a USB headset, but I really like this headset. It's perfect and I just want it to work as well as it did with the creative sound card on my laptop!

OR Should I just go for an external sound card? I want perfect audio quality.. I listen to FLAC Music and have M50s. The Z gives me great sound quality, it's just the microphone quality is awful! If I get the original Z that will cost me £70, which is a lot and is the same price as the Asus U7 compact which seems like it will be better. http://www.amazon.co.uk/U7-Soundcard-Integrated-Headphone-Amplifier/dp/B00CP53ML2/

I don't have to have a pcie sound card but it's more convenient. I'm just so fed up with this right now, need it working. frown.gif

So what should I do, which sound card should I order? This Asus U7 compact or something else? Ideally my MAX budget would be £80. Spending less is welcome and I wouldn't exactly mind trying out Asus PCIE sound cards. I just don't know why I haven't been able to get decent microphone quality with these? Is the creative sound blaster Z generally terrible for recording audio?

Would the Asus Dx or even something like the DGX 5.1 make any difference for my use compared to the Asus U7? I don't plan on getting a 5.1 setup. Sticking with Stereo and just using my M50 for Music / Videos and then the PC320 for gaming.


Thanks in Advance.


----------



## genclaymore

You can find a sound blaster omni on ebay cheap if your lucky but i think amazon sent you a old stock of the Z because all of the ones i see people with are the one with the gold components.


----------



## kiwikozo

Thanks but that's not my question. Is the Asus U7 external Sound Card better than the Z? It certainly seems it from the reviews. And better than anything from creative sub £100. I can get the Asus U7 off Amazon for £70
  
 http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00F8VB0IW/ Omni is £60 on Amazon and the U7 is only £10 but seems quite a lot better.
  
 Or is the Creative X-Fi better http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00GMDWNJK/ and should I get this instead? If I get this sound card hopefully I will end up keeping it for more than 5 years.
  
 Or should I get this Creative one? http://www.amazon.co.uk/Creative-Sound-Blaster-Surround-External/dp/B00FJMQ4C2/
  
 I really don't know the difference between them.
  
 I will only be using this to power my ATH-M50 and PC320s, is this overkill and would a Asus DGX be a better card?


----------



## kiwikozo

Sorry to the Admin because I keep on editing my posts!
  
 I'll make it clearer. I think it might be an issue with static which is causing this noise when recording.
  
 I need to pick between these products, or if there are any other recommendations please suggest:
  
 http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00GMDWNJK/
 http://www.amazon.co.uk/Creative-Sound-Blaster-Surround-External/dp/B00FJMQ4C2/
 http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00F8VB0IW/
 http://www.amazon.co.uk/U7-Soundcard-Integrated-Headphone-Amplifier/dp/B00CP53ML2/
 http://www.amazon.co.uk/Express-Normalizer-Virtual-Speaker-Shifter/dp/B007RMMYFI/
  
 I don't know what to pick, and if spending a lot on an external one is overkill because I'll only be using my M50s and Pc320. No 5.1 only stereo.


----------



## genclaymore

It sounds like you loved the Sound blaster Z but didn't like the mic quality, did you disable the mic options in the panel or did you disable the mic boost which some times messes with the quality of your voice. I found with the omni that i had to disable The mic boost and other options before my voice came out clear, even when I had the omni on my desk away from my mouth, they was still able to hear me, but that was because I had the option on that allow you to talk softly and still be heard.  Also some of the voice changer options also can also cause issues too. Did you try another PCI-E socket? I have a friend which uses the Z as well and uses a mic and he doesn't have your issues as he turns off all of the voice effects and mic boost.
  
 As I found the DG/DGX to have muddy bass which was also boomy and you might not enjoy it since you loved the Z that much. I would suggest you try the suggestions I mention before shipping the Z back again. Going external might solve your issues as I have had similar issues but re-guards to noises in the audio which was gone when i switch to the omni. The major thing is the U7 has Dolby home theater V4 which is very poor software if your looking to use virtual headphone dsp. If you have no plans of ever using it, then that wont really matter.  But a Used omni that you linked is $49ish dollar's, The only thing with the omni is that it only supports 48khz and 96khz playback, meaning you might have to use a re-sample plugin if you use foobar 2k, tho you might not have to if you use the default Direct sound option in foobar.
  
 Edit: the sound blaster omni is the replacement for the X-FI HD Usb which was on the market. the Omni just has a better headphone amp over the X-Fi HD/pro Usb.


----------



## kiwikozo

genclaymore said:


> It sounds like you loved the Sound blaster Z but didn't like the mic quality, did you disable the mic options in the panel or did you disable the mic boost which some times messes with the quality of your voice. I found with the omni that i had to disable The mic boost and other options before my voice came out clear, even when I had the omni on my desk away from my mouth, they was still able to hear me, but that was because I had the option on that allow you to talk softly and still be heard.  Also some of the voice changer options also can also cause issues too. Did you try another PCI-E socket? I have a friend which uses the Z as well and uses a mic and he doesn't have your issues as he turns off all of the voice effects and mic boost.
> 
> As I found the DG/DGX to have muddy bass which was also boomy. I would suggest you try the suggestions I mention before shipping the Z back again. Going external might solve your issues as I have had similar issues but reguards to noises in the audio which was gone when i switch to the omni. The major thing is the U7 has Dolby home theater V4 which is very poor software if your looking to use virtual headphone dsp. If you have no plans of ever using it, then that wont really matter.  But a Used omni that you linked is $49ish dollar's, The only thing with the omni is that it only supports 48khz and 96khz playback, meaning you might have to use a re-sample plugin if you use foobar 2k, tho you might not have to if you use the default Direct sound option in foobar.
> 
> Edit: the sound blaster omni is the replacement for the X-FI HD Usb which was on the market. the Omni just has a better headphone amp over the X-Fi HD/pro Usb.


 
 Thank you, so, so much. You saved me a fair bit of hassle! What do you think about the X-Fi though?
  
 And I won't be using surround, just using stereo headphones. The thing I'm worrying about is that the U7 comes with a basic control panel, and I think that my microphone might be really fuzzy? Or does this make no difference?
 Will the U7 provide me with better sound for listening to music, videos etc with my M50s? I listen to FLAC music.
  
 I did try to change some of the settings and I found that the acoustic eco cancellation causes some fuzzy-ness and the microphone boost is what is causing the static after I say each word.
  
 However if I don't use Microphone boost it's so, so quiet and I can't be heard. The quality is fantastic but I can't be heard.
  
 I also tried another Pcie slot and that changed nothing.
  
 One strange thing is when I test my microphone in the Sound Blaster panel it is perfect, even when I use microphone boost. But when I record myself using the windows sound recorder or when I use programs like skype, teamspeak... it just turns crappy. 
  
 I find it weird how I HAVE to have the noise cancellation on else all I hear is noise. And my headset comes with a noise cancelling mic.
  
 Another thing I would like to add, I really don't care for any gaming features like scout mode and the likes. If I play fps games I'd rather just hear the regular sound. Same with any other game, no strange vitalization!


----------



## genclaymore

If you mean the X-FI HD Usb then there is no reason to grab it over the omni, as the omni is better then the X-FI HD Usb due to it having a better headphone amp.  Since you will not use any of the software features, then either one of the Asus U7 and omni will work and it just turn into getting the one thats the cheaper then the two or have the options that you need. Have you tried a different mic in-case its the sennheiser mic that gone bad, because if it is your headset mic then it wont matter any way which you use until the mic is fixed. But if it is the mic then that be a easy fix. Also did you raise the volume of the mic it self as it should have a separate volume in the mixer tab in the Z control panel, which is on 50% by default maxing that to 100% should fix your volume issues unless you already did that, Since that what I did on the omni, you could also give smart voice a try to see if that will work


----------



## kiwikozo

genclaymore said:


> If you mean the X-FI HD Usb then there is no reason to grab it over the omni, as the omni is better then the X-FI HD Usb due to it having a better headphone amp.  Since you will not use any of the software features, then either one of the Asus U7 and omni will work and it just turn into getting the one thats the cheaper then the two or have the options that you need. Have you tried a different mic in-case its the sennheiser mic that gone bad, because if it is your headset mic then it wont matter any way which you use until the mic is fixed. But if it is the mic then that be a easy fix. Also did you raise the volume of the mic it self as it should have a separate volume in the mixer tab in the Z control panel, which is on 50% by default maxing that to 100% should fix your volume issues unless you already did that, Since that what I did on the omni, you could also give smart voice a try to see if that will work


 
 Thanks again for the prompt response.
  
 You say the Onmi is better, but does it give me better sound through headphones even if I don't listen to music that loud? 
 And Surely the sound quality don't match for both the omni and the U7? The U7 is also much newer and similarly priced?
  
 I've tried the same headset/mic in my laptop which has a creative sound blaster sound card and it's perfect. I don't think the headset is the issue. With either of them I have to enable the noise reduction else I would get constant static.
  
 I did try the volume settings but that didn't do anything, I need the Boost for it to be loud, else it's quiet even if I don't touch the smart volume. And if I use the boost there's this static/crackle after every word/pause.
  
 Does the Omni have better sound quality than the sound blaster Z? And will they truly sound the same - the Omni / X-fi Pro / X-fi HD / U7 to me when I just use my M50s?
  
 I won't ever use anything other than headphones, so I don't exactly need dolby surround since I will be sticking with Stereo, but if sound cards like the U7 give me improved sound quality in general.
  
 Now I admit, I don't know an awful lot about sound cards, but I can hear differences quite well and I'm satisfied with my M50s with FLAC music files and Most recently the quality from the Sound Blaster Z.


----------



## genclaymore

I have not heard the Z so i don't know how the omni compares to it, But I heard people say that it suppose to be a external Z. But I found the omni my self to sound very good when I plugged my headphones directly to it as I was trying it out. I would say the sound was Neutral or close to it, I don't know how to really explain it in detail. The only thing I can think of that you could do is to buy both the U7 and the omni and try them both out and keep the one you like. But the problem with that is it take time and money.Be warn the U7 uses the same control panel that the phoebus uses which is also used by the diamond XS71 card which is glitchy, also the USB switch on the underside of the U7 will need to be put on usb 2.0 other wise there will be issues.


----------



## kiwikozo

So let me just get this straight. The Omni is the successor of the X-Fi 5.1 Pro. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Creative-Sound-Blaster-Surround-External/dp/B00FJMQ4C2/ ?
  
 And the HD is - http://www.amazon.co.uk/Creative-Sound-Blaster-System-Preamp/dp/B00GMDWNJK/ ?
  
 I'd rather stick with Creative than get the U7 from Asus but I'm unsure. Still have 3 days until I have to order.
  
 It doesn't really matter to me out of the 4 which one, price-wise since they're so close. If one is the best even by the slightest I'd rather just get that.
  
 Also like I said, the U7 is only £10 more than the Omni and the X-Fi pro, £10 more than that, but you stated that the sound quality will be very similar for stereo? 
  
 Am I buying a sound card at the wrong time? It seems like we're in such a slow phase with Sound Cards, there haven't been any new ones recently apart from the U7.
  
 I've tried fixing the problem with the Sound Blaster Z but no luck


----------



## genclaymore

kiwikozo said:


> So let me just get this straight. The Omni is the successor of the X-Fi 5.1 Pro. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Creative-Sound-Blaster-Surround-External/dp/B00FJMQ4C2/ ?
> 
> And the HD is - http://www.amazon.co.uk/Creative-Sound-Blaster-System-Preamp/dp/B00GMDWNJK/ ?
> 
> ...


 

 Yea the Omni is the Successor to the X-FI 5.1 pro and X-FI 5.1 HD. They both are similar to each other, other then the omni having a stronger headphone amp then the two and a bit smaller. I would say get a used omni if it still on amazon. Since you mentioned that you rather stick with creative any way. As I have the omni my self and other then doing some settings, I didn't have any mic issues and i used the built in mic of the omni to talk.


----------



## kiwikozo

genclaymore said:


> Yea the Omni is the Successor to the X-FI 5.1 pro and X-FI 5.1 HD. They both are similar to each other, other then the omni having a stronger headphone amp then the two and a bit smaller. I would say get a used omni if it still on amazon. Since you mentioned that you rather stick with creative any way. As I have the omni my self and other then doing some settings, I didn't have any mic issues and i used the built in mic of the omni to talk.


 
 After spending literally 1 hour reading through threads about the U7, X-fi HD, Sound Blaster Z, Omni....
  
 I've come to the conclusion that for stereo the Omni simply sounds better, especially for music since you get plenty of more tweaking options too. But in general music sounds better. And yes, the Omni is better than both of the other creative sound cards. The U7 has awful surround compared to the Omni so It's sort of a clear choice for me.
  
 External seems like a much better choice since it gives me the volume control, frees up space in my PC (won't cause any chaos if I want to go SLI by blocking one of the fans). Off topic, but I can't wait for the GTX970/980 coming out in a couple of weeks. Announcement is on the 18th!
  
 I'm just totally struggling to see the difference between the Omni vs Sound Blaster Z! Will try to do some more research but I'm pretty much ready to get the Omni. Thanks for your help, I was looking at the X-fi HD / U7 before. Luckily I didn't make that mistake!
  
 It's strange how they are so similarly priced, and Amazon made them all available at around the same time so it's hard to see which one is newer. To be honest the Omni doesn't look all that great (Red isn't exactly my thing, but it matches my mobo so hoorah). The Mic might come in handy, not sure. If I find anything about the Omni Vs Sound Blaster Z then I will let you know! And I'll let you know which one I end up getting / my thoughts.


----------



## genclaymore

kiwikozo said:


> After spending literally 1 hour reading through threads about the U7, X-fi HD, Sound Blaster Z, Omni....
> 
> I've come to the conclusion that for stereo the Omni simply sounds better, especially for music since you get plenty of more tweaking options too. But in general music sounds better. And yes, the Omni is better than both of the other creative sound cards. The U7 has awful surround compared to the Omni so It's sort of a clear choice for me.
> 
> ...


 

 You could always print the omni or use a bunch of color tape.


----------



## kiwikozo

genclaymore said:


> You could always print the omni or use a bunch of color tape.


 
 I guess, however there isn't too much red.
 I did more research and it seems that it has excellent sound quality, and performs just like the Sound Blaster Z. 
  
  
 I'll be very happy if my mic issues are resolved when It comes. And I'll purchase one / it will come maybe this weekend / early next week.


----------



## Evshrug

I had the Z, later on picked up the Omni when it came out because it was also Mac compatible and more convenient to get at the ports and controls. I honestly couldn't hear a difference, both were quite good and clean-sounding. The Z was in it's return period and the Omni was cheaper, so I went with the Omni.

For looks, it's a small black thing with a few red accents, and red LEDs that aren't too hard to completely forget about when the computer is in use (since they "point" up).


----------



## x7007

A little question, using the DT990 600 ohm , I find myself hard to hear any positioning using SBX.
  
 Is it because DT990 soundstage ?  Any recommendation for headphones with same quality but very good with SBX surround ?
  
 I remember using the SteelSeries 5vChv2 with XFI Xtreme set to 5.1 , and I really like the surround it gave, but moving on the Studio grade headphones it's impossible to use 5.1 headphones, need to make stereo to 5.1.


----------



## genclaymore

Do you have SBX set up correctly, meaning do you have windows audio panel settings set to 5.1 as well in games, do you have the creative audio panel set to headphone's if you don't do this then SBX wont sound right and also are you using SBX at atleast 67%.


----------



## x7007

genclaymore said:


> Do you have SBX set up correctly, meaning do you have windows audio panel settings set to 5.1 as well in games, do you have the creative audio panel set to headphone's if you don't do this then SBX wont sound right and also are you using SBX at atleast 67%.


 
 yes, windows set 5.1 and games ( If they have this option ) and SBX is at 67%, those things are the norm default.
  
 For example, the SBX control panel video test, do you hear the surround really clear or it just mix up and hardly heard ? cause I could barely hear difference in the SBX test.


----------



## genclaymore

x7007 said:


> yes, windows set 5.1 and games ( If they have this option ) and SBX is at 67%, those things are the norm default.
> 
> For example, the SBX control panel video test, do you hear the surround really clear or it just mix up and hardly heard ? cause I could barely hear difference in the SBX test.


 

 The test I didn't hear it but in games I did.


----------



## benbenkr

Don't use the built-in test on the SBX control panel, it's useless. It's just a .wmv file encoded in stereo, so even if you have windows/control panel set to 5.1 and SBX surround turned on, you're basically upmixing the stereo into 5.1. That's not correct.
  
 Test SBX surround in games instead.


----------



## kiwikozo

evshrug said:


> I had the Z, later on picked up the Omni when it came out because it was also Mac compatible and more convenient to get at the ports and controls. I honestly couldn't hear a difference, both were quite good and clean-sounding. The Z was in it's return period and the Omni was cheaper, so I went with the Omni.
> 
> For looks, it's a small black thing with a few red accents, and red LEDs that aren't too hard to completely forget about when the computer is in use (since they "point" up).


 
 Thanks for clarifying this up!


----------



## kiwikozo

Hi, so I just got my creative sound blaster Omni. I incredibly pleased with the sound quality and the remote which I wasn't aware it came with, but when I move the volume knob it makes a crackle and the same is when I switch songs with the remote, or pretty much do anything with the remote.
  
 Is this normal? It's quite irritating and not expected for £60.
  
 I tried different USB ports and the problem persists. I'm using the latest driver too, did a clean install.
  
 Just an update - as evshrug suggested below I ran the firmware update and it solved all my problems. Cancelled the Amazon replacement too. Very pleased.
  
 The Firmware update was 9 months ago so I didn't think I needed to do it and completely overlooked it. Mistakes happen!
  
 Thanks for the response.


----------



## genclaymore

That not normal the omni i have doesn't have that issue at all. I didn't get a remote with mine so maybe they did something different with the ones that do outside of the usa.


----------



## kiwikozo

Thanks and I don't think that's the issue. They all have the IR sensor and the remote is simply fantastic. Really really good for pausing and playing anything, it just works so well with music programs and even things like youtube. I think the sound card I got is faulty and Amazon have sent me a replacement which should be coming on Wednesday.


----------



## Silverwind

I have sb OMNI and do not get any pops when adjusting the volume. The only time I have heard any pompanos during certain wasapi modes when playing music. I think cause I set 44.1khz wasapi and OMNI is 48khz. Normally no pops.


----------



## wilflare

hey all I just bought the Philips Fidelio X1 + V-Mode BoomPro

I'm just trying to find a solution for my PC (and hopefully console)

firstly, should I get a
Sound Blaster Z, ZX or Omni? (was even considering the Recon3D)

can I plug my PS4 optical out to them and skip using an ASTRO Mixamp altogether?


----------



## genclaymore

You would have to plug your ps4 into them using the line in if you want to route the PS4 audio into the Sound blaster Z or omni.  Do not get the recon3D as the Sound blaster Z is it successor. Either omni or the sound blaster Z is a good choice and the ZX is not worth it as its the same card as the Z. The omni would make it easier for you to plug in every thing as the outputs is directly on it and you can set it on your desk, so you don't gotta reach around the rear of your computer or use your case front panel plugs.


----------



## wilflare

genclaymore said:


> You would have to plug your ps4 into them using the line in if you want to route the PS4 audio into the Sound blaster Z or omni.  Do not get the recon3D as the Sound blaster Z is it successor. Either omni or the sound blaster Z is a good choice and the ZX is not worth it as its the same card as the Z. The omni would make it easier for you to plug in every thing as the outputs is directly on it and you can set it on your desk, so you don't gotta reach around the rear of your computer or use your case front panel plugs.


 
 thanks for the reply man!
  
 hmm. I was wondering if I needed the Audio Control Module on the ZX so I don't have to go to the rear of my PC every single time I need to switch my headphones out to another device or something ><
  
 I wanted to get the Omni but it seems like it's missing some inputs
  
  
 the creative site lists ZX and Z having
 Optical Out : 1x TOSLINK
 Optical In : 1x TOSLINK
 http://us.creative.com/promos/SoundBlasterZseries/
  
 would that work?


----------



## genclaymore

I forgot the Z also had a optical input. yea that will work but be-warn the Z doesn't Decode the Dobly Digital or DTS on the input, you will have to use PCM settings on your ps4 otherwise you wont hear any thing.


----------



## wilflare

genclaymore said:


> I forgot the Z also had a optical input. yea that will work but be-warn the Z doesn't Decode the Dobly Digital or DTS on the input, you will have to use PCM settings on your ps4 otherwise you wont hear any thing.


 
  
 thanks for the update. that's a mega bummer..
 guess I still need to get Mixamp then :/
  
 or can the Z process the Virtual Surround...? would it be better than DD5.1 or DTS?
  
 is there any "hacks" to make our own Audio Control Module.. the convenience is appreciated


----------



## Evshrug

kiwikozo said:


> Thanks for clarifying this up!



Sure thing man!
Mine has an IR port but Also didn't come with a remote, seems like a cool feature. My Omni used to make regular popping noises to my game audio (even my friend heard it over the mic stream, so it infected all audio), I was going to exchange mine too but someone suggested that, in addition to making sure my PC drivers were up to date, I should also install the firmware update (which updates inside the Omni itself). The issue (as well as optical output) was resolved after the firmware update. Something to keep in mind.





wilflare said:


> thanks for the update. that's a mega bummer..
> guess I still need to get Mixamp then :/
> 
> or can the Z process the Virtual Surround...? would it be better than DD5.1 or DTS?
> ...



Like I said on Mad's guide, the Z can accept stereo optical input (and fake surround processing from that, but is more of a sound effect than accurate positioning), and of course you'd have to have both PC and console turned on. If you're looking at the Zx for convenience I'd honestly get the Omni instead.

The Recon3D USB has an optical input that can decode Dolby Digital Live surround input from consoles, or USB input from PC/Mac. A console's USB port can power the device, no computer required, and on PS3 & PS4 you get the bonus that the console recognizes the USB as a mic input. The mic gain switch works on the Playstations to make you louder. The Omni sounds better than the Recon3D USB, but the Recon3D USB sounds cleaner/clearer than a Mixamp. The recon3D USB also has a cable for connecting to an XBox 360 controller for chat audio. Reviewed in the link in my signature.

The Recon3D USB was the most convenient and versatile surround processor I've found, but these days I'm using an Omni on my PC and a Turtle Beach DSS + a Blue Snowball iCE USB mic on my PS4. I sold/gave my Recon3D USB to a friend, I simply had too many devices but I sorely missed it for how easy it made PS4 chat input. I may invest in creative's forthcoming X7 as a do-everything option, but it's a bit on the pricey side.


----------



## wilflare

thanks for the reply this is much appreciated.
  
 on Sound Blaster Z, ZX and Omni,
 I am actually lining towards Omni since the optical input on Z and ZX aren't that useful anymore.
 I really like the convenience on Omni... and the fact that I can use it with my MBP (if I were to do Steam In-House Streaming) helps... 
 but is this more of a price question? 
 I ask this because I may be able to get a ZX at rather good price... so in that case, would it still be recommended?
 (or should I really just cancel my Z or ZX order and go with Omni?)
  
 on Recon3D USB I tried looking up the prices.. woah... they are not cheap at all.
 but the fact that it sounds better and clearer than the Mixamp... makes me really tempted to find one :/
  
 other concerns/thoughts
 (1) Is it wise to keep plugging in and out my X1 + BoomPro to switch between the PS4 and PC?
 (2) I usually game with both my PC and console on (as in when my console is on, PC is usually on as well for Twitch/Streaming)
  
 thank you so much!


----------



## kiwikozo

evshrug said:


> Sure thing man!
> Mine has an IR port but Also didn't come with a remote, seems like a cool feature. My Omni used to make regular popping noises to my game audio (even my friend heard it over the mic stream, so it infected all audio), I was going to exchange mine too but someone suggested that, in addition to making sure my PC drivers were up to date, I should also install the firmware update (which updates inside the Omni itself). The issue (as well as optical output) was resolved after the firmware update. Something to keep in mind.
> Like I said on Mad's guide, the Z can accept stereo optical input (and fake surround processing from that, but is more of a sound effect than accurate positioning), and of course you'd have to have both PC and console turned on. If you're looking at the Zx for convenience I'd honestly get the Omni instead.


 
 I ran the firmware update and it solved all my problems. Cancelled the Amazon replacement too. Very pleased.
  
 The Firmware update was 9 months ago so I didn't think I needed to do it and completely overlooked it. Mistakes happen!
  
 Thanks for the response. Saved me quite a bit of hassle!


----------



## kiwikozo

Oh and just to add - for glenclaymore and evshrug. I ordered mine from Amazon http://www.amazon.co.uk/Creative-Performance-Headphone-Integrated-Microphone/dp/B00F8VB0IW/
  
 The remote is simply fantastic, (RM-820) and it uses a standard coin battery which I presume will last a while and it's very easy to replace. 
  
 http://st.market.rzn.info/i/goods/other/93902/899264.jpg
  
 For the omni every button works apart from the arrow / okay and the off/menu button. That's obviously because it doesn't support those features. But I've tried it on different music programs and even if you're browsing the web in the background it's nice to be able to change songs, or pause things you're watching or to also mute / change the volume. If you can get your hands on one I'd highly recommend it!
  
 edit - the up and down arrow keys also work


----------



## XIX47

I recently purchased a Stealth DC-1 DAC/Amp combo and a toslink cable to connect it to my Soundblaster Z. I intend to use this connection to carry the surround sound from the SBZ to the DAC. I selected SPDIF-Out as the default device in Control Panel --> Hardware & Sound.
  
 I have run into an i error where the SB Pro Studio states "The current selected audio device is disabled, not present, not supported by the application, or has unplugged jack connections. Do you want to select another audio device now?". So I am unable to use the features of Pro Studio.
  
 However, when testing the SPDIF-Out with windows, I can easily hear sound coming through my headphones. With "WASAPI (event): SPDIF-Out (Sound Blaster Z)" as my playback device in Foobar2000, I can hear the music coming through my headphones.
  
 So what am I doing wrong with my configuration?


----------



## haejuk

I actually plan to do something similar and I think that you need to check "play stereo mix to optical out" under Advanced Features tab on the SB control panel.  I am not sure if you should have windows sound settings to output through SPDIF or speakers.  I think if you have it set to 5.1 speakers and have have play stereo mix to optical out checked in the control panel then it should work.  I am still waiting for my DAC/amp to be delivered so I can't confirm if this works, but give it a try if you haven't.


----------



## Suckafish

Firstly, I just wanted to say that this thread has been very helpful in a lot of ways and thank you for all the information! 
  
 Recently I decided to upgrade my gaming sound experience and purchased a pair of Audio Technica ATH-AD700X with a Soundblaster Z.  I must say that this alone made a huge difference coming from integrated motherboard audio.  My primary use for this setup is strictly for gaming with headphones, which I do prefer the SBX features for this purpose.  I was so pleased with this that I started wondering if trading up my current Soundblaster Z for a ZxR would make a further improvement since the AD700X's have such a low impedance and the ZXR has the option to adjust this apparently.  In your experience, would the extra $100+ really be worth it with my AD700X's?  After reading a lot of pages in this forum I noticed that people have mentioned the impedance mismatch with my style of headphones and I am just curious if the ZxR would negate this difference and be a better pairing with the AD700X's? 
  
 Any information is appreciated!


----------



## genclaymore

The ZXR would only benefit you if you had headphone's that needed a stronger amp then what is on the Z,as well if you had a 5.1 setup that was good enough to take advance of the performance of the ZXR.  Also if you just using headphone's like the AD700x then the ZXR wouldn't be worth it, not even for the swappable op-amps, that 100 dollars can be used for something else instead. Then if you had headphones that would benefit from the ZXR stronger headphone amp then there would be better ways to do that, Same with wanting more audio performance.


----------



## XIX47

haejuk said:


> I actually plan to do something similar and I think that you need to check "play stereo mix to optical out" under Advanced Features tab on the SB control panel.  I am not sure if you should have windows sound settings to output through SPDIF or speakers.  I think if you have it set to 5.1 speakers and have have play stereo mix to optical out checked in the control panel then it should work.  I am still waiting for my DAC/amp to be delivered so I can't confirm if this works, but give it a try if you haven't.


 
  
 Thanks, SBX Pro Studio seems to work now after I have followed your advice.


----------



## RXShadow

Just a small question.
  
 I noticed in some screenshots that there's an option to choose low or high gain on the control panel. However, I use the Omni and I don't seem to have them. Is it because it's only for the PCI cards (Z, Zx, Zxr)? or am I updating my software/firmware incorrectly?


----------



## genclaymore

rxshadow said:


> Just a small question.
> 
> I noticed in some screenshots that there's an option to choose low or high gain on the control panel. However, I use the Omni and I don't seem to have them. Is it because it's only for the PCI cards (Z, Zx, Zxr)? or am I updating my software/firmware incorrectly?


 

 The option to change the headphone amp to low or high gain is only on the ZXR, as the ZXR uses a different headphone amp then whats in the omni and the Z/ZX. The headphone amp chip that is in the omni and Z cards is dynamic and supply it based on the amount of volume you use.


----------



## Suckafish

Thank you genclaymore.  That's pretty much what I was leaning towards.  In the off chance I decide to take that route with the ZxR, would you have any recommendations for headphones that pair well with it?  I'm not even sure if I really will go down that road as the Z with the AD700X's were already a vast improvement for me.  Again, this is primarily for gaming so really I'm still weighing if it's worth it in my situation to trade up my current setup for the ZxR and a different set of headphones.
  
 On another note.  I have been tweaking SBX and the equalizer settings in an attempt to get a little more/cleaner bass with my headphones.  Any recommendations for adjusting these to achieve this?  When adjusting the equalizer for more bass would it be better to uncheck the SBX Bass option and allow the equalizer to take full control, including the crossover frequency, or maybe have a little of both?


----------



## RXShadow

genclaymore said:


> The option to change the headphone amp to low or high gain is only on the ZXR, as the ZXR uses a different headphone amp then whats in the omni and the Z/ZX. The headphone amp chip that is in the omni and Z cards is dynamic and supply it based on the amount of volume you use.


 
  
 Gotcha. Thanks!


----------



## haejuk

If you were going to spend $100 more to improve the sound, I think it would be best to get an external amp as the output impedance on the headphone amps on all the Sound Blaster cards are very high.  The Sound Blaster Z has a 22 ohm output impedance which could be a bad match with lower impedance headphones, and the ZxR is better, but still high at 10 ohms.  Most people recommend that the output impedance of an amp should be about 1/8th of the impedance of your headphones.  It is actually more complicated than that and depends on changes in your headphone's impedance curve, but I don't want to get too deep into it.  You could get a decent external amp with a much lower output impedance for $100 or less I am sure.  I am currently using the AD700 (non-X) straight out of the SBZ and I am not disappointed at all.  It can get a little harsh at times, but I don't know if an external amp would solve that or not.


----------



## wilflare

haejuk said:


> If you were going to spend $100 more to improve the sound, I think it would be best to get an external amp as the output impedance on the headphone amps on all the Sound Blaster cards are very high.  The Sound Blaster Z has a 22 ohm output impedance which could be a bad match with lower impedance headphones, and the ZxR is better, but still high at 10 ohms.  Most people recommend that the output impedance of an amp should be about 1/8th of the impedance of your headphones.  It is actually more complicated than that and depends on changes in your headphone's impedance curve, but I don't want to get too deep into it.  You could get a decent external amp with a much lower output impedance for $100 or less I am sure.  I am currently using the AD700 (non-X) straight out of the SBZ and I am not disappointed at all.  It can get a little harsh at times, but I don't know if an external amp would solve that or not.


 
  
 what's a good amp to go along with this? man this sound business is getting more and more expensive (what did I expect).
  
 I'm probably getting a ZX (found a really good price)... was really tempted to go with the Omni (would I still need an amp?)
 or would my Fidelio X1 not require an amp at all
  
 (still unsure what to do with my Audinst HUD-MX1)


----------



## haejuk

It does get more and more expensive, and as it gets more expensive you get smaller jumps in audio quality.  If you just want an amp on your desk for volume adjustment and a convenient place to plug in your headphones you could go with the Schiit Magni.  It seems to have a good reputation for its price and the specs look good as well.  I ordered one this week and am waiting for it to come in, so I can't 100% say this works great and is a huge sound improvement.  I am not too familiar with amps in this price range, but Fiio also makes good quality low price amps.
  
 I haven't heard many good things about the ZX.  It is basically the same card as the Z, but you get that audio control module that some people reported ruins the sound.  I wouldn't tell you not to buy it straight out because I have no experience with it though.  Just what I have read (and that could be outdated).
  
 Based on a quick look at the Fidelio X1's impedance graph at inner fidelity I think that an amp with very low output impedance would suit this best.  Apparently the stock cable also doesn't help as it has an unusually high resistance.


----------



## Suckafish

haejuk said:


> If you were going to spend $100 more to improve the sound, I think it would be best to get an external amp as the output impedance on the headphone amps on all the Sound Blaster cards are very high.  The Sound Blaster Z has a 22 ohm output impedance which could be a bad match with lower impedance headphones, and the ZxR is better, but still high at 10 ohms.  Most people recommend that the output impedance of an amp should be about 1/8th of the impedance of your headphones.  It is actually more complicated than that and depends on changes in your headphone's impedance curve, but I don't want to get too deep into it.  You could get a decent external amp with a much lower output impedance for $100 or less I am sure.  I am currently using the AD700 (non-X) straight out of the SBZ and I am not disappointed at all.  It can get a little harsh at times, but I don't know if an external amp would solve that or not.


 

 What are your thoughts on the Sennheiser HD 598 or 558's vs the AD700's when they are used primarily for gaming?  A friend of mine recommended the HD-558/598's over the AD700's, but I personally have never heard the Sennheiser's when they are used for gaming.  Would it be a worth while investment over my current AD-700X's at all?  They are similar in price, but I am just curious which headphone would have the best fidelity for gaming.


----------



## haejuk

I am afraid that I have never heard any of those headphones before.  If I had to choose, I would head over to Mad Lust Envy's thread about gaming headphones over in the Video Games section:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/534479/mad-lust-envys-headphone-gaming-guide-update-7-9-2014-ultrasone-hfi-15g-added
  
 There are reviews on tons of headphones and how they perform for gaming there.  I see that the 598 is reviewed, but not the 558.  I am actually considering getting myself another headphone for gaming and plan to go through that thread to determine which one sounds best for me.  I am pretty sure that the author does most of his gaming on console, but as he is reviewing the headphones the information should translate well to PC gaming.


----------



## Suckafish

Don't get me wrong, I think the AD700X's I have are great for gaming, and with the rubber band mod they fit comfortably (I have a small head).  I just don't do any competitive gaming at all, mostly just single player, so I'm just asking around if the Sennheiser 558's would fit my needs better for a more immersive experience over the AD700X's.  Maybe other people would have an opinion on these two headphones simply for single player PC gaming as the primary purpose.....


----------



## haejuk

Yeah.  The thread I linked rates headphone on how it works competitively and how it works just for fun sererately.  I find the AD700 pretty fun just because of the soundstage, but I wouldn't mind having a can that people say is good for fun as well.


----------



## Suckafish

haejuk said:


> Yeah.  The thread I linked rates headphone on how it works competitively and how it works just for fun sererately.  I find the AD700 pretty fun just because of the soundstage, but I wouldn't mind having a can that people say is good for fun as well.


 

 I'm curious as to how you set up SBX Pro on your Z for the AD700X when gaming.  Currently I am only using the default settings (67% surround, 50% bass, crystalizer off).  I also enable the equalizer but keep it at flat except for the level, which is -2db.  Do you personally adjust anything else at all?


----------



## haejuk

I actually just use the default settings myself.  I tried tweaking some things around, but for me it sounds fine with the default settings.


----------



## wilflare

how are you guys working around "reaching to the rear" of the Sound Blaster Z whenever you need to change your headphones to another system
  
 EDIT: how does this card compare with the Asus STX? (I actually had them at one point before my Audinst HUD-MX1)


----------



## genclaymore

The sound blaster Z has a weaker headphone amp then the STX, the STX shares the same headphone amp as the ZXR, Also you can use What you hear in the windows audio control to route the sound directly to your Audist hud-MX1 usb to send audio over to it. So you can keep using your Audinst like you been doing. But other wise you would use the line out on the Z to connect to a headphone amp.


----------



## wilflare

genclaymore said:


> The sound blaster Z has a weaker headphone amp then the STX, the STX shares the same headphone amp as the ZXR, Also you can use What you hear in the windows audio control to route the sound directly to your Audist hud-MX1 usb to send audio over to it. So you can keep using your Audinst like you been doing. But other wise you would use the line out on the Z to connect to a headphone amp.




So by doing that toggle in PC, I would send the Sound processed by my Sound Blaster Z/ZX DSP to my Audinst to go thru its DAC and AMP again? 

hmm do you guys use extension cords so you don't have to keep reaching to the back of the PC?


----------



## genclaymore

wilflare said:


> So by doing that toggle in PC, I would send the Sound processed by my Sound Blaster Z/ZX DSP to my Audinst to go thru its DAC and AMP again?
> 
> hmm do you guys use extension cords so you don't have to keep reaching to the back of the PC?


 

 Yea that exactly what "What U hear" will do when you set it up in the recording tab to output to the USB input of the Audinst, it would use the dac of it Virtually, if you plugged the Z into the Audinist using the analog, it will not use the dac of the Audnist and the tube if i recall is in the dac part of the audinst.  I don't use any extension cables, I used the "what u hear" method with the omni and the X-FI PCI that I borrowed from my dad.


----------



## wilflare

genclaymore said:


> Yea that exactly what "What U hear" will do when you set it up in the recording tab to output to the USB input of the Audinst, it would use the dac of it Virtually, if you plugged the Z into the Audinist using the analog, it will not use the dac of the Audnist and the tube if i recall is in the dac part of the audinst.  I don't use any extension cables, I used the "what u hear" method with the omni and the X-FI PCI that I borrowed from my dad.




I see but by doing that. would I lose the DSP effects of the Sound? like virtual surround etc


----------



## genclaymore

wilflare said:


> I see but by doing that. would I lose the DSP effects of the Sound? like virtual surround etc


 
 No because when you do it that method, it sends DSP and all of that to it. You just gotta make sure you keep the Sound blaster Z speaker in  window's audio settings the default device otherwise it wont send it over.


----------



## wilflare

genclaymore said:


> No because when you do it that method, it sends DSP and all of that to it. You just gotta make sure you keep the Sound blaster Z speaker in  window's audio settings the default device otherwise it wont send it over.


 
  
 thanks! I'm still quite surprised by how simple it sounds
 guess I won't need the ACM unit after all.
  
 so let me get this right
  
 Source > Sound Blaster Z (adds in the Surround effects for Headphones > What U Hear > Audinst HUD-MX1 > Philips Fidelio X1
 where would I plug my mic then? V-MODA BoomPro
  
 on top of my headphones, I also have my AE AegoM speakers - where should they go?
  
 I'm kinda entertaining the idea of using my Sound Blaster Z purely as a DSP and then have the signal sent to Schiit Stack? will that work and keep the surround signals?


----------



## genclaymore

wilflare said:


> thanks! I'm still quite surprised by how simple it sounds
> guess I won't need the ACM unit after all.
> 
> so let me get this right
> ...


 

 You plug the mic directly into the sound card mic connection.  Also I got the aune T1 and the audinst confused with each other, tho the what u hear method will still work, It just your Audinst doesn't have optical input but an output. If the schiit stack something that you really want, then go for it. The Modi optical will make it easy for you, to plug the sound blaster Z into when you do make the move. Since all you would do is go into the advance Tab and select enable send stereo mix to optical box, which will send the Surround sound and every thing that you have enable directly into the modi, and you be all set.   I don't know why i mix up the aune T1 with your Audinst HuD.


----------



## wilflare

yea my Audinst HUD-MX1 does not have an Optical IN..
 so how does the computer actually send the signal over to the Audinst?
  
 thanks for your patience in answering all my questions really appreciate it!
 hmm the Schiit Stack would offer better sound quality that my Sound Blaster Z, Audinst HUD-MX1 (and even the Asus Xonar STX?)
  
 where would my desktop speakers the AE AegoM get connected to though? ^^


----------



## plath

Every once in a while the sound coming from my speakers/headphones will start to have a crackly static effect and then switch to a really loud continuous beep. Is it something to do with my sound card?
  
 I usually notice it happening when I start up CSGO. It goes away when I restart.


----------



## manningr83

kiwikozo,
  
 Thanks documenting the issues you were having with the Sound Blaster Z and its terrible microphone preamp.
  
 I am having the exact same issues as you and was wondering if the switch to the Omni has resulted in less mic static?
  
 I have been through the same sound card testing journey as you and my only solution so far is to use a Logitech USB sound card for mic duties and the SB Z headphone out for my Sennheiser headset.
  
 Really like the Z but tempted to sell it and get the Omni or the new E5.


----------



## genclaymore

I have used the mic built into the omni it self when i own it and it didn't give me any static issues at all. A friend was also able to hear me clearly but I had to do some config first to get the mic right.


----------



## manningr83

Thanks for the info on the Omni built in mics, hopefully they didn't cripple the mic input on the front. The Z mic input actually performs worse than the on board Realtek ALC889 so you cant really get away without using crystal voice causing a significant drop in capture quality.


----------



## x7007

plath said:


> Every once in a while the sound coming from my speakers/headphones will start to have a crackly static effect and then switch to a really loud continuous beep. Is it something to do with my sound card?
> 
> I usually notice it happening when I start up CSGO. It goes away when I restart.


 
 I had the problem too, didn't get answer from anyone, I think it fixed when I moved the card from the PCIE_2 x16 slot to PCIE_0 x1 slot and maybe including the side fans are disconnected all this long, I did not had the noise once. Usually it happened even when I changed from Speakers to Headphones straight away couple of times, now I can change over 9000 and it doesn't happen.


----------



## Fafner

Hi,
 sorry but a 166 pages thread is a bit on the long side to try to find what I'm looking for.
 This is a problem I've been having since I got the card (which is when it actually was released), it never really disappeared. Basically, my DBPro keeps disappearing and reappearing on a regular basis (let's say 2 or 3 days, depending on the amount of boots/reboots). There are times I boot into Windows and it's just not there, there are other times I boot into Windows and it's there again and fully working. Couldn't really find a scenario to constantly reproduce it.
  
 My PC is behaving just like if 2 devices were installed (not at the same time, it detects either one or the other one). The Creative control panel keeps cycling between a "2-SoundBlaster ZxR" (this is where the DBPro module works) and a "SoundBlaster ZxR" device (this is where the DBPro is nowhere to be seen and all relevant sliders and settings get hidden accordingly). Every "device" seems to retain its own settings (loudness, ...). Once I try to start the control panel, I'm often getting asked to choose another soundcard as the currently set one "isn't detected, not compatible with the current application or has no cables attached to its jacks". For example, if I'm on the "2-SoundBlaster ZxR" device which has been working fine for some days, I'm told it isn't detected anymore and I'm offered to select the "SoundBlaster ZxR" device. Then all stays like this for a couple of days without further prompts, then this happens again and I get offered to get back to the "2- SoundBlaster ZxR" device as the current isn't detected again, and so on and so on, cycling between the 2 devices! The problem is, one device works flawlessly, the other one is just a Zx as the DBPro module just isn't seen. The card itself works 100% fine, the DBPro module works fine as well when I'm on the "device" which detects it!
  
 Any hints on this?


----------



## VeerK

fafner said:


> Hi,
> sorry but a 166 pages thread is a bit on the long side to try to find what I'm looking for.
> This is a problem I've been having since I got the card (which is when it actually was released), it never really disappeared. Basically, my DBPro keeps disappearing and reappearing on a regular basis (let's say 2 or 3 days, depending on the amount of boots/reboots). There are times I boot into Windows and it's just not there, there are other times I boot into Windows and it's there again and fully working. Couldn't really find a scenario to constantly reproduce it.
> 
> ...


 
 Have you tried a different PCIe slot, driver reinstallation, etc?


----------



## SaLX

@Fafner Try a complete uninstall, remove the cards and then run this: http://treexy.com/products/driver-fusion to make sure every reference is gone from the PC. GL.


----------



## Fafner

veerk said:


> Have you tried a different PCIe slot, driver reinstallation, etc?


 
  
  
 Yep, tried pretty much everything long time ago. On the Creative forums I've seen others reporting a similar problem, but 0 replies from the Creative team.


----------



## wilflare

how do I go about using my Sound Blaster ZX purely as a DSP?
 do I just turn on "What U Hear" and have it playback over my USB DAC? (which serves as an excellent hardware audio knob)
 would that work?
  
 the thing is my USB DAC doesn't have SPDIF IN...
  
 EDIT: went back a page or two and found that my questions were answered.
  
 I'm curious though. how does "What U Hear" affect the sampling rate?
 and with that, I'm using the DAC of whatever playback device I'm using right? (and not the SBZ)?
  
 and one more question, how do I get the surround sound from my video files to my headphones in this setup?
 (e.g. Netflix, Anime, etc)


----------



## w1ntersold1er

fafner said:


> Yep, tried pretty much everything long time ago. On the Creative forums I've seen others reporting a similar problem, but 0 replies from the Creative team.


 
 I-ve found an alternative forum where some guy crafts upgraded drivers for Z series. MP me if interested maybe it fixes ur problems.


----------



## Fafner

w1ntersold1er said:


> I-ve found an alternative forum where some guy crafts upgraded drivers for Z series. MP me if interested maybe it fixes ur problems.


 
  
  
 Are you referring to the PAX drivers? I'll try them.
  
 Edit: installed them, took a while to figure out as the install routine wasn't automatically installing them (yeah, driver signing was off). At this moment everything seems ok, will need some days to check.


----------



## w1ntersold1er

Yeah I was referring to PAX Drivers. I'm glad it solved ur problems man  
  
 ¿Can you explain a little more how did u installed them? There is no explanation at all in the creator forum.


----------



## Fafner

w1ntersold1er said:


> Yeah I was referring to PAX Drivers. I'm glad it solved ur problems man
> 
> ¿Can you explain a little more how did u installed them? There is no explanation at all in the creator forum.


 
  
 Unfortunately it didn't solve my problem. Everything seemed fine until today. I booted my PC before lunch to check my emails and everything was ok. I didn't install, nor modify, nor remove anything. As I booted it again after lunch, the DBPro module was gone again. Guess it will be back later today or tomorrow, go figure :\
  
 As for installation, all I did was uninstall the Creative stuff, reboot the PC making sure to disable driver signing enforcement (google it, plenty of guides around), install the PAX package and manually install the unsigned drivers (you have to go to Device Manager, select the generic audio devices you see there and manually point to the inf file available in the PAX package ("Update driver", "Look for a driver in the PC", "Manually select a driver"...this latest step is very important, if you make it look for an updated driver instead, it will tell you it can't find one).


----------



## wilflare

is there a way to turn off that red LED yet? :/


----------



## genclaymore

nope you have to either cover it up with black tape, or manually remove it like some people have done. but removing it void your warranty.


----------



## A8ADY

i own a sound blaster z paired with akg q 701

but to take advantage of 5.1 and ddl i need to use optical. i tried using my astro mixamp and it did work great actually. what i know is only DACs has optical in, will the DAC affect the sound quality you know they are all sound cards. am asking because if i bought a cheap DAC just to benefit from the optical in will it affect the blaster z sound quality ? or is there a way/device that i can benefit of its optical port without affecting the blaster z's sound?


----------



## genclaymore

The sound blaster Z actually have SBX surround which you can use for headphone's if you plug it directly to the sound card headphone jack. That way you wont have to worry about using the astro mix amp any more just the sound card.  You can set it up using 5.1 in windows and games and headphone mode in the creative software and use the default SBX surround setting and it will work quite nice.


----------



## A8ADY

genclaymore said:


> The sound blaster Z actually have SBX surround which you can use for headphone's if you plug it directly to the sound card headphone jack. That way you wont have to worry about using the astro mix amp any more just the sound card.  You can set it up using 5.1 in windows and games and headphone mode in the creative software and use the default SBX surround setting and it will work quite nice.


 
 i liked the SBX but when i tried 5.1 + ddl it was better imo . thats why am asking if i got the cheapest dac ever just to benefit from the optical port will it affect the blaster's sound quality ?


----------



## genclaymore

a8ady said:


> i liked the SBX but when i tried 5.1 + ddl it was better imo . thats why am asking if i got the cheapest dac ever just to benefit from the optical port will it affect the blaster's sound quality ?


 
 No because when you are using optical, the sound card is just acting as a Digital Transport device sending over the sound card DSP features. You will only get the benefits of the sound blaster sound quality if you are using analog. What you heard was the work of the astro mix amp when you plugged the Z into it thru optical.


----------



## A8ADY

genclaymore said:


> No because when you are using optical, the sound card is just acting as a Digital Transport device sending over the sound card DSP features. You will only get the benefits of the sound blaster sound quality if you are using analog. What you heard was the work of the astro mix amp when you plugged the Z into it thru optical.s


 
  
 thanks so you mean if if i plugged the any DAC to my sound card it wont badly affect the sound quality !


----------



## genclaymore

a8ady said:


> thanks so you mean if if i plugged the any DAC to my sound card it wont badly affect the sound quality !



 

yea, as I did this all the time when I wanted to send the sound card features over to a dac thru Digital.


----------



## ThePwnie

EQ settings for Dt 990 250ohm? I mainly listen to EDM, deep house, house, etc. 
  
 Right now I'm using flat with -5 8k.


----------



## A8ADY

genclaymore said:


> a8ady said:
> 
> 
> > thanks so you mean if if i plugged the any DAC to my sound card it wont badly affect the sound quality !
> ...


 
  
 thats cool :d what do you recommend ?


----------



## genclaymore

a8ady said:


> thats cool :d what do you recommend ?


 
 Depends on your budget but the Schiit audio's Modni dac with optical input + Magni amp total's $199, but that price is close to the Audio-GD NFB15 2014 which is a dac and amp unit which is $239 Which has usb,Optical and coaxial for input's in-case you wanted to plug more then one devices into it. You might be able to find a older model NFB15.32 in the F/S section of the forum if you have luck on your side as it should be going for a good price, if you able to find one.


----------



## benbenkr

Alternatively, the Aune X1 Pro at $229 which is even more versatile than the Audio GD NFB15. Amp is slightly on the weak side, but will still handle Q701 without breaking a sweat. Also has DSD support if you are ever going to dive into all that new mumbo jumbo no-compromise format.


----------



## A8ADY

genclaymore said:


> Depends on your budget but the Schiit audio's Modni dac with optical input + Magni amp total's $199, but that price is close to the Audio-GD NFB15 2014 which is a dac and amp unit which is $239 Which has usb,Optical and coaxial for input's in-case you wanted to plug more then one devices into it. You might be able to find a older model NFB15.32 in the F/S section of the forum if you have luck on your side as it should be going for a good price, if you able to find one.


 
  
 wow i just want optical in thats it. i just want something to work as signal transfer as you said. i would go for the cheapest as long as it get the job without badly affecting the sound .


----------



## genclaymore

a8ady said:


> wow i just want optical in thats it. i just want something to work as signal transfer as you said. i would go for the cheapest as long as it get the job without badly affecting the sound .


 
 The way you worded it you had me thinking that you was gonna remove the astro mix amp from the chain and use a standalone headphone amp with the external dac or a all in one unit, while keeping the sound blaster Z in for gaming and connect that to the external dac thru digital. That's where my suggestions was coming from. If your gonna keep the astro then there no reason for a external dac at all especially if your gonna get a super cheap to use with your sound blaster Z, ince you will be better off using your Z analog out in that case. Unless your planning on removing your Z and using something like a Sabre U2 usb in it place which can be found cheap for $49 which has a combo analog/optical jack that you would use a 3.5 to tos-link adapter and connect it to your Astro mix amp.
  
 When you originally did try the Z to the astro using digital, did you make sure you had the option in the advance tab check for sending stereo mix to spdif out. Which is the only way the Z will send it DSP functions over optical. Also did you set windows and games to 5.1 and kept the creative Z panel to headphone mode when you was using SBX surround. If you don't do this then it won't work correctly. It has to be done this way so The function can  downmix the 5.1 to 2.0 for the headphone. Which why SBX surround work best set up this way, so it will greatly, which also applies to CMSS3D Headphone and Dolby headphone usage.  Do not set spdif out on the Z as the default playback device, if you do this then the card won't be sending any of it features to your mix amp thru Digital.


----------



## A8ADY

genclaymore said:


> The way you worded it you had me thinking that you was gonna remove the astro mix amp from the chain and use a standalone headphone amp with the external dac or a all in one unit, while keeping the sound blaster Z in for gaming and connect that to the external dac thru digital. That's where my suggestions was coming from. If your gonna keep the astro then there no reason for a external dac at all especially if your gonna get a super cheap to use with your sound blaster Z, ince you will be better off using your Z analog out in that case. Unless your planning on removing your Z and using something like a Sabre U2 usb in it place which can be found cheap for $49 which has a combo analog/optical jack that you would use a 3.5 to tos-link adapter and connect it to your Astro mix amp.
> 
> When you originally did try the Z to the astro using digital, did you make sure you had the option in the advance tab check for sending stereo mix to spdif out. Which is the only way the Z will send it DSP functions over optical. Also did you set windows and games to 5.1 and kept the creative Z panel to headphone mode when you was using SBX surround. If you don't do this then it won't work correctly. It has to be done this way so The function can  downmix the 5.1 to 2.0 for the headphone. Which why SBX surround work best set up this way, so it will greatly, which also applies to CMSS3D Headphone and Dolby headphone usage.  Do not set spdif out on the Z as the default playback device, if you do this then the card won't be sending any of it features to your mix amp thru Digital.


 
  
 i have a problem with my mixamp so thats why am asking about a new device to benefit its optical port. when i first tried it i remember i disable stereo mix ( there is no difference on/off ). when i used headphone port i set windows and games to 5.1 with headphones when using sbx . yea but it feels like 2 channels virtualized but the 5.1 with optical feels more natural surround. my pint is if i get a 20$ dac will it affect the sound quality ?


----------



## genclaymore

The cheapest one is the Fiio D3 and yes it will affect the sound quality as you are using analog as the D3 analog quality wont be as good as the Z's. Which why I mentioned you might as well just plug your Z analog out into your Astro RCA inputs. Because that would be better off then using the Fiio D3.


----------



## A8ADY

genclaymore said:


> The cheapest one is the Fiio D3 and yes it will affect the sound quality as you are using analog as the D3 analog quality wont be as good as the Z's. Which why I mentioned you might as well just plug your Z analog out into your Astro RCA inputs. Because that would be better off then using the Fiio D3.




Thats disappointing . From what you just said even the mixamp is affecting the Z . So what do you think ? I wanna use 5.1 + ddl what is cheapest dac that wont badly affect the quality.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## skildit

Hey guys. I've had the ZXR for a long time but have recently made the switch to linux. Creative doesn't support Linux, however, the operating system recognizes the device but doesn't play anything through it (speakers or headset). When I restart my computer into windows my sound works but my microphone does not. I can restart a hundred times, it won't help- I have to do a full shut down and then boot into windows for it to work. What I noticed was the Relay Click doesn't go off in Linux. Is there a way I can physically force it or something?


----------



## PurpleAngel

skildit said:


> Hey guys. I've had the ZXR for a long time but have recently made the switch to Linux. Creative doesn't support Linux, however, the operating system recognizes the device but doesn't play anything through it (speakers or headset). When I restart my computer into windows my sound works but my microphone does not. I can restart a hundred times, it won't help- I have to do a full shut down and then boot into windows for it to work. What I noticed was the Relay Click doesn't go off in Linux. Is there a way I can physically force it or something?


 
  
 Sell off the SB-ZxR and get something more Linux compatible.
 Is your (or was your) SB-ZxR for gaming or movies or music or all three?


----------



## skildit

Gaming and Music. I'll probably end up selling it for something else but was wondering if it's possible to force something on the card.


----------



## x7007

skildit said:


> Gaming and Music. I'll probably end up selling it for something else but was wondering if it's possible to force something on the card.


 
 I've found those forums... might help u.
  
 http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2147443
  
 https://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=55541#c101
  
 This is some good infomartion
  
 https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/alsa-driver/+bug/1166529
  
 Some settings in windows has a connection with linux , like volume
  
 Maybe this might help ?
  
 http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTMwODM
 http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTEwNTg


----------



## Amatsu

Hi. I'm thinking of buying the Z version since my X-Fi died this week, but I need someone to help me out with something.

It's about the SBX surround. I know that you can you can set you windows speakers to 5.1, then select headphones in the creative control panel, and activate the SBX Surround for headphones.
My question is if you can activate SBX Surround with 2 speakers selected in the creative control panel, while you have 5.1 speakers selected in the windows speakers. 

I'm asking because that's what I used with headphones on my X-Fi so I could use CMSS-3D Virtual instead of CMSS-3D Headphones (which made the sound a lot worse). CMSS3D virtual is intended for speakers but you can still get a good positional effect while not losing sound quality.

So basically what I'm asking is if there is a similar way to do that with the new Z series. Setting the windows speakers to 5.1, selecting 2 speakers on the creative control panel and then activating the surround option. 

Thank you.


----------



## x7007

amatsu said:


> Hi. I'm thinking of buying the Z version since my X-Fi died this week, but I need someone to help me out with something.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



 


Yes you can,


----------



## bcschmerker4

Thanks for posting this Discussion on, among other Creative Laboratories® products, the SB1510 Sound Blaster® ZxR®, which I have under consideration for what, as of November 2014, looks a system to run Microsoft® Windows® 10.0.14000 (MultiProcessor Kernel 6.5._b_) when released sometime in the next two years.  The Asus® XONAR® series (C-Media® CMI-8788-compatible DSP's) has been taken up by the Advanced LinUX Sound Architecture Project, with a dedicated driver snd-virtuoso; but no ALSA driver has been attempted as of November 2014 for the SoundCore3D®.
  
 From what I have read on other sites, the SoundCore3D® is engineered for integration into the Windows® audio stack on Kernels 6._n_._b_ (introduced with Windows Vista® 6.0.6000).  Extrapolating from experience with my current (as of 2014) Asus® CM1630-06 as upgraded with an EAH6850 DirectCU® video card and XONAR® Essence™ STX™ audio card (in adjacent slots due to a design issue with the CM1630's stock M4A78LT-M LE system board) plus a 750W Antec® PSU, the SB1510 appears the best available choice for a Win-centric audio card that may very well have a video card adjacent to it.


----------



## SoFGR

amatsu said:


> Hi. I'm thinking of buying the Z version since my X-Fi died this week, but I need someone to help me out with something.
> 
> It's about the SBX surround. I know that you can you can set you windows speakers to 5.1, then select headphones in the creative control panel, and activate the SBX Surround for headphones.
> My question is if you can activate SBX Surround with 2 speakers selected in the creative control panel, while you have 5.1 speakers selected in the windows speakers.
> ...


 
 windows 5.1 + headphones mode + SBX surround (atleast the default  67%) doesn't murder sound quality too much compared to x-fi cmss3d headphone DSP


----------



## Amatsu

Thank you both, that's good to know.


----------



## NCSUZoSo

Take a look at my ZXR/PC/Home Theater setup 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
  
 This is my ZXR with the "germanium" mylar cap mod for Direct Coupled IV.  You can find out more info on this mod here.  Obviously you will need soldering experience, but in all the mods I have done with soldering iron to hardware, this is by far the best I have ever "bothered" to do. 
  
  

  
 This shows you which caps you are shorting, picture provided by user germanium:
  
  

  
  
 Here is the backside of my card showing all the shorts I made to take out those capacitors.
  
  

  
  
 That is the op-amp setup I went with (all the specifics are in my signature)
  
  

  
  
 Now here is my Speaker/Receiver setup (details also in my signature):
  
  

  
  

  
  
 I also wanted to provide some pictures I got from Creative and some user made to possibly help users looking to upgrade their opamps down the road:
  
  
  
 Creative Support showing the path the signal takes for all channels, as you may notice only the front channels are affect by the opamps you can replace.
  

  
  
 Creative Support showing the type of op-amp you will need for each location (Single DIP or Dual DIP)
  
  
  

  
  
  
  
 This last picture shows you how you use DIP8 adapters and how they should be positioned in the op-amp socket.

  
  
  
 Hope you enjoy my heavily modded/upgraded ZXR and hopefully the pictures at the bottom will help someone.  If you have any questions feel free to ask me either in here or in the thread I linked above (http://www.head-fi.org/t/705284/lightbox/post/10262052/id/1061452)


----------



## cheeno50

hey guys what a good  bass crossover frequency settings for headphones? Default is 80hz. Does it make sense to set it to 20hz to get all frequencies?
  
 For the fidelio x1's


----------



## cdsa35000

Just listen what you like best setting!?
Download the measurement datasheet:
http://www.innerfidelity.com/headphone-data-sheet-downloads


----------



## rudyae86

cdsa35000 said:


> Just listen what you like best setting!?
> Download the measurement datasheet:
> http://www.innerfidelity.com/headphone-data-sheet-downloads


 
 Im still new to reading data sheets like these. Could you enlighten us a bit with what is going on here? also, i was also confused about the crossover. I had the bass boost on with crossover at 80hz, which is default. I just want to know what is this crossover?


----------



## NCSUZoSo

rudyae86 said:


> Im still new to reading data sheets like these. Could you enlighten us a bit with what is going on here? also, i was also confused about the crossover. I had the bass boost on with crossover at 80hz, which is default. I just want to know what is this crossover?


 
  
  
 All a crossover does is redirect the lower frequencies (like 80Hz if you set it to that) to a subwoofer.  In a headphone only rig it has no purpose at all, it will either kill all frequencies below what you select or it won't do anything.  I use an Aune T1 with my headphones, so I haven't bothered to test that.  If I was running headphones only with the ZXR (or any sound card) I wouldn't even have the crossover turned on.


----------



## cdsa35000

rudyae86 said:


> Im still new to reading data sheets like these. Could you enlighten us a bit with what is going on here? also, i was also confused about the crossover. I had the bass boost on with crossover at 80hz, which is default. I just want to know what is this crossover?



Use EQ to get a Flat Frequency Reponse:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphic_equalizer
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/1995_articles/mar95/eq.html
http://www.audio-production-tips.com/graphic-equalizer.html
http://www.presonus.com/community/Learn/Equalizer-Terms-and-Tips

The Reference point/calibration of reproduction/recording/processing of audiosignals is a flat frequency response at 0 dB from bandwidth 20Hz to 20kHz, means the audiofreq. is as close to the original LIVE signal without alternation.
Since that is not possible with reallife audio gears, they use the EQ to equalize/correction to reproduce the flat freq. response.

With the graphic Freq.Response data sheet of your headphone you can try to equalize to the closed corresponding EQ frequencies to apply the correction.
It's a logaritmic scale each line represent next decimals up: 10Hz 20Hz...90Hz 100Hz 200Hz...900Hz 1000Hz 2000Hz...etc. 
In theory supposed the presented graphic FR is from your actual headphone (in reallife they use feedback microphones/dummy head http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dummy_head_recording to get the graphic FR scale when playing the some bandwidth Freq. sweep tones through) and with the EQ you apply the correcting x dB to the tops and bottoms close to the ideal 0dB FR line.
Correction to the X1 FR would be: 31Hz +5dB, 62Hz +2dB, 125Hz +4dB, 250Hz +7dB, 500Hz +8dB, 1kHz +10dB, 2kHz +12dB, 4kHz +15dB, 8kHz +11dB, 16kHz +24dB.

Thats the theory, in practise year ears decides if you like it or not.
---
In theory the bass (subwoofer) booster LPF (Low Pass Filter) is for the subwoofer output but here you can use it as 1 band parametric booster with the cutoff Crossover Frequency adjustable from 10Hz to 1kHz.
For (your) headphones going lower than 62Hz-ish is useless because of high THD% Total Harmonic Distortion and eventually will blowup/damage the small headphone's drivers if volume is set too high!
But if you insist the Crossover freq. would be set to 15Hz with 10% to 50% but doesn't make sense and waste of energy and damage since you almost cant hear it and headphone drivers gets distorted! 

Bass Subwoofer Crossover Frequency:
http://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer-setup/setting-the-subwoofer-lfe-crossover-for-best-performance
http://www.ramsdellproaudio.com/support/sub_crossover_pt.htm
http://www.soundandvision.com/content/where-should-i-set-my-subwoofer-crossover

http://www.wikihow.com/Use-a-Parametric-Equalizer
---
As for THX surround setting, its just simulate virtually the global 5.1/7.1 speakers setup from a hometheater with adjustable surround 0-100% distance/volume between the speakers to your headphones/ears.
Suppose surround at 0% the speakers(or only FL/FR is active) are at maybe virtual 6 metres distance and at 100% would mean they are maybe 0.2 m closer.

Depends on variable contents and its effects, I'd set for Stereo source from 10% to 40%, for 5.1/7.1 movies from 40% to 60% and for 5.1/7.1 games from 40% up to 80%.
THX surround is much better than DH with its exaggerated reverberation.


----------



## Evshrug

^if you put a mic between the headphone earcups, how do you account for the drastic effects of an Earpad sealing against your head/ear, and the FreqResp changing effect of the shape of your ears/earcanals?

I'm Not saying neutrality and EQ are bad when carefully done, I'm just wondering if adjusting EQ by ear would be about as good as a mic adjustment without a head-dummy that has an audiologist impression of your ears. That said... I wouldn't be surprised if a forum member or two has a custom head dummy, lol!

I agree that THX (and pretty similar SBX) is subjectively nicer and objectively less distorted and environment-flexible (scene setting in a parking lot vs out in deep forest, all DH sounds like you're inside a room with lots of reverb), and find your surround % ranges interesting... Around here people strongly suggest the default 67% for surround content, but my tastes agree with your ranges and find that sometimes increasing the surround % helps improve the rear imaging.

Have you had the chance to experience AMD's TrueAudio?


----------



## cdsa35000

^Thats why he used the averages of five measurement points:
Frequency Response measurements:
Top - Compensated and Averaged
Bottom - Raw Data for Five Headphone Positions up, down, forward, back and centered
http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/headphone-measurement-proceedures-frequency-response
http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/headphone-measurment-proceedures-introduction-and-equipment

No by ear is just unreliable, I don't think human ear can make linear adjustments by hearing the white noise/pink noise that covers the whole audio freq. spectrum bandwidth.

It's normal for room calibration of hometheater systems like:




http://simplehomecinema.com/2014/10/09/yamaha-ypao-and-ypao-r-s-c-advanced-topic/
---
SBX is the exactly same as THX, they don't want to pay the THX license/certification anymore and btw THX is not the surround technique, it's just the Audio certification that the manufacturer follow his own standards/protocols just like factory ISO 9001. http://www.dtf-audio.cn/en/new_content.asp?id=88 
Yeah, THX/SBX surround is very dry wherelse DH is too wet, in terms of MIDI keyboard instruments, THX use more Chorus and minimal Reverb effects and DH use Chorus with too much Reverb.

btw I don't use other gimmicks Crystalizer/Bass/Smart Volume/Dialog Plus/EQ etc. since my headset sounds perfectly balanced/clear/audiophile to me, those gimmicks are for the lesser "audiophile" setups.
---
No, AMD TrueAudio is brandnew as builtin DSP in their newest videocards to unload CPU audio processing. Just another audio gimmick like PhysX graphics gimmick.
You won't hear too much difference for the average hometheater/game speakers quality/setups, just like uping the treble and bass has samey "improvements" besides the game run abit smoother due less CPU stress for audio processing.
Core3D do this trick already with any PC audio.


----------



## benbenkr

I do agree that setting the surround slider between 40-60% for surround movies though, having it at the default 67% (or higher) simply makes movies too reverb-y to listen to in dialog heavy scenes. It creates that tunnel effect and it sounds very unnatural. I find 52% to be a good sweetspot for movies IMO.


----------



## genclaymore

It also depends on the headphones you are using as different headphones have different results from the setting. So you may have to lower it or raise it based on that and your ears.  When I was running a omni thru my bifrost, I used 67% which was'nt the default setting for the SBX on the omni. But I made sure to set the windows speaker,games and program's to 5.1 so it worked correctly, because if you don't then it wont sound right.


----------



## benbenkr

^That's true.
  
 67% sounded a little too congested on games in my Soundmagic HP150 versus an open can like the K712 or X1. I felt 79% on the HP150 was more in-line with how the default 67% would be on a wide open headphone.
  
 It's also why not all headphones works best with a single virtual surround tech. I still believe that SBX has the best balance amongst others, at all fronts though.


----------



## StudioSound

I did a lot of testing/measurement when I got my card:

33% is the point at which the channels are most distinct with SBX Pro Studio Surround.
Higher than that starts to blend the channels together more to create a more cohesive ring of sound, reducing some of the directionality and increasing the reverb.
What you prefer probably depends on what you're using it for (music/movies/games) and the headphones you use. Even if you prefer to use something other than 33%, I wouldn't recommend going above 67%.

And if you're sending the audio to an external amp or DAC, keep the volume at or below 70%.
70% is the point at which you can send it 6 channels of 0 dBFS tones without the headphone mix clipping or being compressed.
I think it does some sort of dynamic range compression to prevent clipping, but I did not really investigate it.


----------



## genclaymore

studiosound said:


> I did a lot of testing/measurement when I got my card:
> 
> 33% is the point at which the channels are most distinct with SBX Pro Studio Surround.
> Higher than that starts to blend the channels together more to create a more cohesive ring of sound, reducing some of the directionality and increasing the reverb.
> ...


 

 I have owned 3 external dac's and I never gotten any Clipping or bering compressed issues when I ran a DG/DGX, XFI or Omni into them. I always ran them with 100% with out those problems you mention.As I would had notice if the omni was doing the compressing effect with SBX or with it.


----------



## benbenkr

studiosound said:


> I did a lot of testing/measurement when I got my card:
> 
> 33% is the point at which the channels are most distinct with SBX Pro Studio Surround.
> Higher than that starts to blend the channels together more to create a more cohesive ring of sound, reducing some of the directionality and increasing the reverb.
> ...


 
  
 I agree with 33%. But as for not going above 67%, I don't think I can agree on that anymore. I've had the ZxR for over a year now and I've always thought that going above 67% made no sense. It does when you have a closed headphone, there's no 2 roads about this. Numbers may show otherwise and obviously, not everyone will agree irregardless.
  
 Interesting on that point of not going above 70% on volume though. I do seem to remember clipping on a couple of headphones at some rather high volume, will have to re-investigate this again. But thanks for bringing this up as I've forgotten about this potential issue.


----------



## mccarver

Are these new Z* comparable with Asus Xonar or Soundblaster X-Fi? How do they compare with the X-Fi family?


----------



## Fegefeuer

@67% with the HD 800 the channels are noticably easy to distinguish with my DAC/AMP. I don't mind the "lesser" blending though compared to >67% and prefer that balance.


----------



## x7007

I found my self going crazy about the settings, I'm not sure what to use for gaming / movies / music

I have DT990 600 Ohms, I don't want EQ because we have Crystalizer which does the same just auto.

But I find myself stuck with the Surround and Crystalizer % , and should I or should I not enable Dialog Plus, cause it is auto enabled when using specific profiles, for example Driving simulation.



The other question

Do I need to change the Surround every time I play specific game , Driving , Action , Adventure ? Should I change it when watching Movie ?

Dialog Plus, Would it work well for games ? cause they suggest it with the Pre-Profile set.

It's funny , if you see the "help" when you move the mouse hover the specific option it says always about movies or movies and music. for example Crystalizer by creative is only for music and movies.
Surround is for music , movies , games. Dialog Plus - movies.


Last posts someone said Surround 33% is the best, and someone else said 60%, and someone else said 55%.

 everything seems to sound fine, but I can't find the pitch perfect to really enjoy the sound, I want to have "studio" surround like I get the sound from the headphones, if we can call it like that, hard to explain xD

I'm listening to Batman OST , specific tracks I like the most 

Batman Arkham City Soundtrack - 07 - I Think You Should Do A.mp3
Batman Arkham City Soundtrack - 09 - Wham. Gotcha_.mp3

And I remember how I heard them with the Xonar, it was the most enjoyable sound in-game I could experience. With some settings with the creative it really change the sound, and I don't want it to do that. EQ must be disabled, Crystalizer must be enabled cause for some reason I lose a lot of bass ( maybe because it's Mp3 and in-game was other compression sound or uncompressed ? )


----------



## StudioSound

genclaymore said:


> I have owned 3 external dac's and I never gotten any Clipping or bering compressed issues when I ran a DG/DGX, XFI or Omni into them. I always ran them with 100% with out those problems you mention.As I would had notice if the omni was doing the compressing effect with SBX or with it.



 
When you downmix a 5.1 signal to stereo, you have to attenuate the signal or else it might clip when all the channels are summed together.
As long as all the channels are below a certain volume, they will mix together without clipping.

What I tested was playing 6 channels of 0 dBFS tones (100% volume) to see how SBX Pro Studio Surround handled it.
It seems to be applying some sort of dynamic volume adjustment to prevent the signal clipping.

Reducing the volume of the 5.1 device (not the S/PDIF output) to 70% allows the channels to be mixed together without clipping or triggering this dynamic volume adjustment, even if all six channels reach 0 dBFS.



benbenkr said:


> I agree with 33%. But as for not going above 67%, I don't think I can agree on that anymore. I've had the ZxR for over a year now and I've always thought that going above 67% made no sense. It does when you have a closed headphone, there's no 2 roads about this. Numbers may show otherwise and obviously, not everyone will agree irregardless.
> 
> Interesting on that point of not going above 70% on volume though. I do seem to remember clipping on a couple of headphones at some rather high volume, will have to re-investigate this again. But thanks for bringing this up as I've forgotten about this potential issue.



 
My recommendation was to stay in the range of 33-67%, not to go above it. I generally leave it set to 33% for all content now.



x7007 said:


> I found my self going crazy about the settings, I'm not sure what to use for gaming / movies / music
> 
> I have DT990 600 Ohms, I don't want EQ because we have Crystalizer which does the same just auto.
> 
> ...



 
In the Speakers/Headphones tab, set the output to Headphones.
In the Windows Control Panel, check that the Sound Blaster device is set to 5.1 channels.
In the SBX Pro Studio tab, only enable Surround. Choose a setting between 33-67% that you like. 33% will be the most directional. Higher settings blend the channels together more and add more reverb. It's really just personal preference though.

I wouldn't use any of the other signal processing/EQ.


----------



## rudyae86

Im currently using 67% now. I use to do 100% but now that you made it out...100% isnt ideal. I love 67% so far. I assume that depending on your headphone, the settings or percentage will vary. Closed headphones should be able to use 67% well enough. Im using a PC350 SE for gaming for now, so i can vouche that it works well. I turn off all the enhancementa anyways, they dont really do much honestly, well much in making things better on good headphones or headsets.

When i get home im going to set it to 33% and then 44%, 55%, and see how much of a difference it will make in FPS games...

I will do the same for racing games (mainly GT6 on PS3) and see how that works out as well, especially since the new update makes the sound better and slightly more real, instead of vaccum sounds and whatnot lol


----------



## FrostByghte

I'm looking for help with recommended options hooking up the ZxR.  After reading through this thread...many...many times, I finally purchased the ZxR along with some Philips Fidelio X1.  Now I also have bass shakers hooked to this setup and really love them for gaming.  The positional audio is great through the headphones and the bass shakers add a punch that make it feel like a very large speaker setup.  This is great for when I'm bugging everyone in the house with my gaming...

 Now what I am after is the ability to connect a 2.1 system in with this mix while preserving the SBX positional for the headphones and the 2.1 system and allowing the bass shakers to work with all this.  Can anyone recommend some options?  Right now I just have a Y splitter running from the headphone out on the ZxR to the headphones and the amp for the shakers. So how can I get option #1: sound from headphones/shakers working and then be able to sometimes switch to option #2: desktop speakers/subwoofer/shakers working preserving the APPROPRIATE SBX for each set of speakers?  Thank you for any recommendations.
  
 If you are wondering, sometimes I just don't want to wear headphones or it isn't convenient to do so...and vice versa.


----------



## x7007

frostbyghte said:


> I'm looking for help with recommended options hooking up the ZxR.  After reading through this thread...many...many times, I finally purchased the ZxR along with some Philips Fidelio X1.  Now I also have bass shakers hooked to this setup and really love them for gaming.  The positional audio is great through the headphones and the bass shakers add a punch that make it feel like a very large speaker setup.  This is great for when I'm bugging everyone in the house with my gaming...
> 
> Now what I am after is the ability to connect a 2.1 system in with this mix while preserving the SBX positional for the headphones and the 2.1 system and allowing the bass shakers to work with all this.  Can anyone recommend some options?  Right now I just have a Y splitter running from the headphone out on the ZxR to the headphones and the amp for the shakers. So how can I get option #1: sound from headphones/shakers working and then be able to sometimes switch to option #2: desktop speakers/subwoofer/shakers working preserving the APPROPRIATE SBX for each set of speakers?  Thank you for any recommendations.
> 
> If you are wondering, sometimes I just don't want to wear headphones or it isn't convenient to do so...and vice versa.


 
 FrostByghte, the Bass Shaker looks interesting , I always wanted to buy one, but I didn't know which, I've found a site which give 5 different Bass Shakers and the differences , but I still need AMP for them, and I've no idea which one.


----------



## genclaymore

studiosound said:


> genclaymore said:
> 
> 
> > I have owned 3 external dac's and I never gotten any Clipping or bering compressed issues when I ran a DG/DGX, XFI or Omni into them. I always ran them with 100% with out those problems you mention.As I would had notice if the omni was doing the compressing effect with SBX or with it.
> ...


 
 As I said I did not have that issue with the sound clipping when your using 100% volume, and I know what sound clipping sound like. But I did not have it and i used 100% all the time when I sending sound card audio to a external dac using the send stereo mix to spdif option that creative sound cards have these days, Or if its a Xonar card then the pcm selection under Spdif.  Using "What u hear" to do it will cause sound clipping issues and that is the only time I used less then 70% but I don't like having to use "what U hear" so I try to avoid relying on that. As it tend to give me issues with muting the sound causing me to reboot or mess around to get it to work again.


----------



## StudioSound

genclaymore said:


> As I said I did not have that issue with the sound clipping when your using 100% volume, and I know what sound clipping sound like. But I did not have it and i used 100% all the time when I sending sound card audio to a external dac using the send stereo mix to spdif option that creative sound cards have these days, Or if its a Xonar card then the pcm selection under Spdif.  Using "What u hear" to do it will cause sound clipping issues and that is the only time I used less then 70% but I don't like having to use "what U hear" so I try to avoid relying on that. As it tend to give me issues with muting the sound causing me to reboot or mess around to get it to work again.



 
As I said, it uses a dynamic volume adjustment which mostly prevents clipping.
I did have some rare occasions where the LFE channel would start clipping in a movie though.
The recommendation is more about preserving the full dynamic range of the content than avoiding clipping.

With 6 channels of 0 dBFS tones played to the 5.1 device set to 70% volume, the downmix over the S/PDIF output is 0 dBFS. (just _very_ slightly below it, if I recall correctly)
If you reduce the volume below 70%, you see the S/PDIF output level being reduced as well.
If you raise the volume above 70% the S/PDIF output cannot get any louder, since it's already at 0 dBFS.
So a dynamic volume adjustment is used to prevent the output from clipping - which is effective at avoiding clipping most of the time, but does so by reducing your dynamic range.

Again, this is setting the 5.1 sound device to 70% volume, *not* the S/PDIF output (using "play stereo mix to digital output") and only when you're downmixing 5.1 to stereo using SBX Pro Studio Surround. (which, for me, is always)

You don't have to do it, but I'd recommend it if you're using the card to output a headphone mix to an Amp/DAC.


----------



## FrostByghte

x7007 said:


> FrostByghte, the Bass Shaker looks interesting , I always wanted to buy one, but I didn't know which, I've found a site which give 5 different Bass Shakers and the differences , but I still need AMP for them, and I've no idea which one.


 
 I use a Dayton Audio APA 150 with two AuraSound AST-2B-4 Pro Bass Shaker Tactile Transducers just attached to the bottom of my office chair. Go for mono with this setup, I  tried stereo but close placement of the transducers just cancels some things out in stereo. I love this setup for games.  Made Lichdom really come alive.  Looking forward to Elite Dangerous with it as well.  Might be good for movies as well, I haven't really watched any with it setup.  A lot of people seem to attach them to their couch.  
  
 From all my research the Clark Synthesis TST429 Platinum Transducer is supposed to be the holy grail (if money is no object).
  
 Now I just need to get this setup working a bit more seamlessly with what I want to do.  I've been considering just getting a receiver to switch between everything.  I want to add that I'm surprised more gamers don't jump on this type of setup.  It's a value add for me.


----------



## x7007

frostbyghte said:


> I use a Dayton Audio APA 150 with two AuraSound AST-2B-4 Pro Bass Shaker Tactile Transducers just attached to the bottom of my office chair. Go for mono with this setup, I  tried stereo but close placement of the transducers just cancels some things out in stereo. I love this setup for games.  Made Lichdom really come alive.  Looking forward to Elite Dangerous with it as well.  Might be good for movies as well, I haven't really watched any with it setup.  A lot of people seem to attach them to their couch.
> 
> From all my research the Clark Synthesis TST429 Platinum Transducer is supposed to be the holy grail (if money is no object).
> 
> Now I just need to get this setup working a bit more seamlessly with what I want to do.  I've been considering just getting a receiver to switch between everything.  I want to add that I'm surprised more gamers don't jump on this type of setup.  It's a value add for me.


 
 ye definitely Clark Synthesis TST429 Platinum  I go for the best one. the problem is ordering it from outside the country, the delivery cost will be insane, like total insane.
  
 can I mount it to this chair ?
  
 http://www.amazon.com/2xhome-Professional-Comfortable-Adjustable-Conference/dp/B00KK8MSMU/ref=sr_1_69?ie=UTF8&qid=1416578748&sr=8-69&keywords=office+chairs


----------



## FrostByghte

x7007 said:


> ye definitely Clark Synthesis TST429 Platinum  I go for the best one. the problem is ordering it from outside the country, the delivery cost will be insane, like total insane.
> 
> can I mount it to this chair ?
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/2xhome-Professional-Comfortable-Adjustable-Conference/dp/B00KK8MSMU/ref=sr_1_69?ie=UTF8&qid=1416578748&sr=8-69&keywords=office+chairs


 
 The Clark Synthesis might be better suited for something much larger.  I'd go with the much cheaper Dayton Audio APA 150 and I have a chair very much like that.  I have both mounted with screws to the underside of the chair.  It's quite the punch...lol


----------



## rudyae86

Okay, I am still confused about the sound blaster Z and the sound blaster omni.
  
 I want to buy one of them but which?
  
 Specs show that sound blaster Z has slightly better hardware and features compared to the Omni...
  
 but Price wise, is it worth it?
  
 Also, since the Omni is USB, is there any lag compared to the PCIe Sound Blaster Z?
  
 Omni is 50 bucks on Creative's website and Sound Blaster Z is at 65 bucks....
  
 dont know which to buy


----------



## cdsa35000

rudyae86 said:


> Okay, I am still confused about the sound blaster Z and the sound blaster omni.
> 
> I want to buy one of them but which?
> 
> ...



Are you kidding?
*Omni is just a simple USB DAC with SOFTWARE SBX (PROCESSING DONE WITH THE PC CPU) and Z has own HARDWARE CORE3D SBX.*

Yes it can have soundlag if PC CPU is weak and overloaded and USB weak power wont sound good as OMNI is noisier with S/N 100dB than Z has S/N 116dB with better sounding headamp.


----------



## rudyae86

cdsa35000 said:


> Are you kidding?
> *Omni is just a simple USB DAC with SOFTWARE SBX (PROCESSING DONE WITH THE PC CPU) and Z has own HARDWARE CORE3D SBX.*
> 
> Yes it can have soundlag if PC CPU is weak and overloaded and USB weak power wont sound good as OMNI is noisier with S/N 100dB than Z has S/N 116dB with better sounding headamp.


 
 I kind of had the feeling someone was going to say that lol. Im going with the PCIe Z card then lol Thanks for the info. I was really leaning to that card anyways. I like versatility but I figure, who games on their laptop most of the time? Not comfy anyways, my laptop can barely run bf4 anyways lol


----------



## cdsa35000

*SBX= THX!*
BUMP from page 67 misinfo:


djinferno806 said:


> I can't speak for the tiHD I'm windows 8 or newer games. But the z works flawlessly. At least it did for me.
> 
> The L/R speaker out is a line out as far as I know. Just because they are included in the same jack the naming is different(correct me if I'm wrong). This will send SBX surround to your amp fine. The sbx surround might sound different using headphones out of this port as they are meant for speakers. Users report different surround staging/imaging through this one. The headphone out would be your best bet but its inferior to the sq in the line outs. Myself and many users can confirm this(I have my suspicions of the headamp bottlenecking the sq after the DAC). The tiHD would beat it there. But it is more pricey generally unless you find a good deal or used.
> 
> ...







fegefeuer said:


> Titanium HD has the usual line out (all features of the headphone section work over line out, like CMSS-3D) which can be used for any active speaker, amp or whatever, in your case the O2 amp. It will work in Windows 8 as well. I had no problems.
> 
> SBX is NOT THX rebranded. Apart proven from a lot users you can't just rebrand licensed stuff and get away with it. There's also a reason why Creative calls it OEM on their webseite and THX is still listing it.
> 
> ...



*BUMP to clearify SBX is rebranded THX:*
http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1799986


> My question:
> 
> Quote:
> Hello, Does the 2013 revision of the Creative Sound Blaster Recon3D SBX USB sound card use the same hardware/processor as the older Recon3D THX USB sound card? I have seen news articles about the Recond3D line being revised but wanted to see if there was more specific details on the USB sound cards. Also, when will you have the Creative Sound Blaster Recon3D SBX USB back in stock? I can only find the THX version for sale online. Thanks in advance.
> ...


----------



## DJINFERNO806

cdsa35000 said:


> *SBX= THX!
> *


*


I think you are confusing yourself with your question to the rep and also his answer.

You asked him if the hardware was the same? Hardware meaning the SPU, the Soundcore3D. Which it is, the processor hasn't changed at all. And given creative R&D costs, it won't for a while, they will continue using it until its no longer useful or has paid for itself.

You did not ask him if the sound processing aka virtual surround HRTF algorithm was the same. But hr still answered it for you regardless by explaining the software is Noe proprietary to creative, aka the sound processing software, aka SBX.

But let me explain once again, it is most certainly not a rebrand. THX sounds nothing like SBX. Also Feg was right and you cannot just simply take THX licensed software and rename it to your own, that is illegal and zcreative knows better.


Lastly please do not say this is misinformation as we have done tons and on and off testing of both products before you even came along. I have tons more experience with the said products than most.

Also please do not continue reposting multiple times. It comes off silly and childish.*


----------



## cdsa35000

OK, then I will ask him/software programmer again if the surround algorithm is the same or not for the final conclusion.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

cdsa35000 said:


> Are you kidding?
> *Omni is just a simple USB DAC with SOFTWARE SBX (PROCESSING DONE WITH THE PC CPU) and Z has own HARDWARE CORE3D SBX.*
> 
> Yes it can have soundlag if PC CPU is weak and overloaded and USB weak power wont sound good as OMNI is noisier with S/N 100dB than Z has S/N 116dB with better sounding headamp.




This is also misinformation. Your cpu will hardly feel a difference regardless of where the processing is done. Windows audio session api handles the mixing and won't induce much overhead. Nothing a modern cpu won't do with just 1% usage.
Lastly, the S/N means nothing with the sbz because the headamp is actually rated lower at around 100dB as well. Its actually a bottleneck for the DAC itself on the card. This has been talked about many times in this thread by us. Simple search is simple.

Also where are you getting "USB weak power" from? This makes no sense. USB audio connection is the best way to get asynchronous audio to a DAC externally. Non jitter and also no EMI from an internal card.

Please do your research.


----------



## lauris3722

Could someone explain how ohm's work within the amp? Let's say this one delivers 80mW at 300ohm, can there be a math done to find out what it delivers at 24ohm? I have 3000mW 24ohm headphones, wondering if this card will be able to supply it.


----------



## rudyae86

djinferno806 said:


> This is also misinformation. Your cpu will hardly feel a difference regardless of where the processing is done. Windows audio session api handles the mixing and won't induce much overhead. Nothing a modern cpu won't do with just 1% usage.
> Lastly, the S/N means nothing with the sbz because the headamp is actually rated lower at around 100dB as well. Its actually a bottleneck for the DAC itself on the card. This has been talked about many times in this thread by us. Simple search is simple.
> 
> Also where are you getting "USB weak power" from? This makes no sense. USB audio connection is the best way to get asynchronous audio to a DAC externally. Non jitter and also no EMI from an internal card.
> ...


 
 So, would going with the Omni be a more vaible option compared to the Sound Blaster Z PCIe? Sound Blaster Z does at its highest 24bit/192khz stereo direct and the Omni has 24/96khz i think. Is there any sound/quality differences because of these numbers? Hardware wise, are they the same or is something better in the Z?


----------



## DJINFERNO806

In terms of specs, I wouldn't worry about them too much. I highly doubt you'll be using any audio sources that are even 24 bit or higher than 48khz especially if the omni is mostly for gaming. You also won't benefit from the extra bit rate and sampling frequency by just setting windows to that. Doesn't work that way.

Whether its more viable will depend on two things. One would be if you rather have an externel unit rather than an internal. Or do you need to take it to other PC's?

I personally think an internal Z is a much better and cleaner option but that's just me. I think the omni is ugly and looks like a toy.


----------



## Silverwind

I have not used the built in OMNI mic. What I am using is a vmoda boompro mic plugged into the mic input jack. Works like a champ!


----------



## genclaymore

I have used the omni mic and it worked good even when i had it right under my monitor also the omni it self didn't give me hardware issues at all, just some minor software suite settings being odd. I just didn't like using "what u Hear" to send the audio into my external dac. Since I read the info on the optical wrong when I first got it as i thought it had the "Send stereo mix to spdif" check box but it had Two settings for DD live which didn't make sense windows 8, while windows 7 had it as muiti channel mix thru spdif without the encoder..


----------



## Evshrug

rudyae86 said:


> So, would going with the Omni be a more vaible option compared to the Sound Blaster Z PCIe? Sound Blaster Z does at its highest 24bit/192khz stereo direct and the Omni has 24/96khz i think. Is there any sound/quality differences because of these numbers? Hardware wise, are they the same or is something better in the Z?



Think of it this way... CD is 16bit/44kHz. And very good. Diminishing returns range good. A higher bit rate is more important than the refresh. With the Omni you already have superior audio capabilities than you get on CD or DVD movies (unless you're talking about the flopped SACD or DVD-Audio formats), I'm telling you I had both side by side and I was hard -pressed to hear a difference between them. Really I'm confident that the major differences are price, that stereo optical input, and where you plug them in. If you'd rather have the Z, get that, but don't bother paying for rush shipment because you've already been patient about choosing one so far


----------



## rudyae86

evshrug said:


> Think of it this way... CD is 16bit/44kHz. And very good. Diminishing returns range good. A higher bit rate is more important than the refresh. With the Omni you already have superior audio capabilities than you get on CD or DVD movies (unless you're talking about the flopped SACD or DVD-Audio formats), I'm telling you I had both side by side and I was hard -pressed to hear a difference between them. Really I'm confident that the major differences are price, that stereo optical input, and where you plug them in. If you'd rather have the Z, get that, but don't bother paying for rush shipment because you've already been patient about choosing one so far


 
 I got amazon prime, so 2 day shipping is free


----------



## cdsa35000

djinferno806 said:


> I think you are confusing yourself with your question to the rep and also his answer.



To clear this off, new email confirms again:


> Thank you for contacting Creative.
> 
> Regarding your email, we inform you that the product is the same, only changed the name.
> 
> ...



You may excuse that he is misinformed too, but evidence is in the Recon3D rev.1 and rev.2 cards. 
If you want really test if there's actual difference between SBX and THX, then to do it with the Recon3D rev.1 /THX and Recon3D rev.2 /SBX cards.
Both versions shared the same Firmware and Software updates, when v2 is detected by same softwareinstall, it will install the v2 SBX controlpanel instead of the THX.


----------



## benbenkr

Sigh.
  
 THX is not SBX, end of story. If you're going to ask a PR from Creative, it's as good as asking a store janitor.
  
 Run the numbers if numbers exites you.
  
 But here I have a Recon3D USB and a SB ZxR, running on 2 computers. With the same game, with the same settings, there is CLEARLY a difference between THX and SBX. Don't try and argue with this, there is a difference between them. Don't argue, period.


----------



## Fegefeuer

They are different indeed. THX from TiHD vs SBX (ZxR) was quite a difference to me. Especially the hallway effect of thx Imaging/staging.


----------



## Evshrug

The Ti HD and ZxR are mostly comparable hardware quality too... but regardless the sound is pretty close and IMO both are the best virtual surround for general headshapes that we can get on a general consumer level. I kinda wish the Recon3D had an optical output so I could compare it and the Omni using an external DAC and amp system, but if the Recon3D USB HAD a processed, stereo, virtual surround optical out I wouldn't have bothered getting an omni.

They sound so close it's a waste of time to compare them vs enjoying them.


----------



## rudyae86

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B00EZT7RE4/ref=olp_tab_used?ie=UTF8&colid=1JRJCPI8NZD0Y&coliid=I2QTS53LLA8CT1&condition=used
  
 sometimes I feel like I want to jump on this but for some reason.....my gut tells me to wait until tomorrow or friday for the sound blaster z.......
  
 Hmmm.....
  
 Decisions


----------



## Evshrug

I mean, SoundBlaster already made their Black Friday deals online. If you want to save $10 buying used, possibly missing the remote or whatever, more power to you.


----------



## rudyae86

evshrug said:


> I mean, SoundBlaster already made their Black Friday deals online. If you want to save $10 buying used, possibly missing the remote or whatever, more power to you.


 
 their deals are effective tomorrow. And that link shows its open box but new. It also says it comes with everything. If it doesnt I can always return it but than again....


----------



## rudyae86

Nevermind
  
 SOUND BLASTER Z AND SOUND BLASTER OMNI ARE NOW IN BLACK FRIDAY MODE
  
 SOUND BLASTER Z IS $65
  
 AND
  
 SOUND BLASTER OMNI IS $50
  
 not including tax since people live in different states.
  
 This is currently how Creative website has the listed.
  
 I personally will just order from amazon.com and if they lower the price from here till cyber monday, you can always get a price match within a week.
  
 Sound Blaster Z
 http://www.amazon.com/dp/B009ISU33E/
  
 Sound Blaster Omni
 http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00EZT7RE4/


----------



## Koss02

rudyae86 said:


> Nevermind
> 
> SOUND BLASTER Z AND SOUND BLASTER OMNI ARE NOW IN BLACK FRIDAY MODE
> 
> ...


 
  
 I'm also considering the Sound Blaster Omni, I just want to find the type/version of the DAC that it has on board.


----------



## benbenkr

^Cirrus Logic CS4398.
  
 The same DAC on the SBZ/Zx.


----------



## rudyae86

is that good or bad? lol


----------



## Koss02

Ok thanks. It looks like they perform quite differently though, from SNR ratios to ohms these can drive to headphones. 

I'm also considering the Asus Xonar U7. Looking to drive a simple powered 2.0 speaker setup and casual headphone usage. 

I just want something that will make my speakers perform better without breaking the bank.


----------



## rudyae86

So i just got and installed my Sound Blaster Z and it sounds really good but I forgot to research something....
  
 Its only 5.1 compared to my recon3d which is 7.1..??
  
 I thought the recon3d was to be the lesser quality product compared to the sound blaster Z?
  
 Im surprised that the Z isnt 7.1.
  
 Either way, the sound quality is higher than the Recon3d for sure and I think I can notice the difference between 7.1 and 5.1.
  
 I want to say that the 7.1 does have a stage different thatn the 5.1....its hard to explain but whenever a helicopter goes above me, it sound more natural than on 5.1...
  
 Im still new to explaining things in what surround sound is but thats what it sounds like in 5.1. especially how the speakers are set up in 5.1 are differnt in 7.1......
  
 I usually play BF4 so yeah...
  
 What settings should i be using on SBX control panel?
  
 I love the sound quality but the 7.1 missing, has me a bit sad  lol. I guess thats a tradeoff for better sound quality?


----------



## Koss02

rudyae86 said:


> So i just got and installed my Sound Blaster Z and it sounds really good but I forgot to research something....
> 
> Its only 5.1 compared to my recon3d which is 7.1..??
> 
> ...


 
 Have you tried the Asus Xonar U7 ? 
  
 Or are you set on internal sound cards as opposed to USB?


----------



## Koss02

rudyae86 said:


> So i just got and installed my Sound Blaster Z and it sounds really good but I forgot to research something....
> 
> Its only 5.1 compared to my recon3d which is 7.1..??
> 
> ...


 
 With the Sound Blaster Z, can you achieve 5.1 surround sound from 2.1 speakers?  Or is the 5.1 only achievable via headphones?
  
 I'm slightly confused (clearly).


----------



## rudyae86

i have not tried the asus xonar u7. I dont really like Dolby headphone to start it off with. But i read some reviews on it and it seems like a good USB DAC/DSP but I think it falls short on somethings, not sure what or cant remember.
  
 SO far like SBX more than dolby headphone. Thats just me


----------



## Koss02

rudyae86 said:


> i have not tried the asus xonar u7. I dont really like Dolby headphone to start it off with. But i read some reviews on it and it seems like a good USB DAC/DSP but I think it falls short on somethings, not sure what or cant remember.
> 
> SO far like SBX more than dolby headphone. Thats just me


 
 Noted.
  
 I still don't understand the 5.1 sound card advantage.  Is this advantage only for headphones rated for 5.1 surround?  And for 5.1 speaker set-ups?
  
 OR could I achieve a simulated 5.1 surround on 2.0 speakers?


----------



## rudyae86

koss02 said:


> Noted.
> 
> I still don't understand the 5.1 sound card advantage.  Is this advantage only for headphones rated for 5.1 surround?  And for 5.1 speaker set-ups?
> 
> OR could I achieve a simulated 5.1 surround on 2.0 speakers?


 
 Well, I noticed a bit of a difference between 5.1 and 7.1 but nothing that the avarage user will actually notice while hearing.
  
 Now for 2.0 speakers set up, i was to say that it could work but not precisely, since most of the processing that is being made in the sound card, is actually meant for headphones....of course, using virtual surround sound. I dont think they build this card taking into consideration that users will use their 2.0 speakers to use simulated surround sound. CAn it work? It should work but it wont give you the best positional audio.
  
 I know dolby has some sort of technology for laptops where it mimics or give a virtual surround stage using its 2 little speakers. Sound like you had speakers in the back but quality and precision of objects sounds are weird.


----------



## Evshrug

koss02 said:


> With the Sound Blaster Z, can you achieve 5.1 surround sound from 2.1 speakers?  Or is the 5.1 only achievable via headphones?
> 
> I'm slightly confused (clearly).



Soundblaster has different surround processing for stereo speakers and stereo headphones, changes when you switch modes between speakers/headphones in the SBX control panel. Both the Creative's have outputs to connect a 5.1 powered speaker setup, if you are inclined. Creative even sells a 5.1 speaker package.





rudyae86 said:


> So i just got and installed my Sound Blaster Z and it sounds really good but I forgot to research something....
> 
> Its only 5.1 compared to my recon3d which is 7.1..??
> 
> ...



I'm Pretty Sure the Z can process 7.1, or in some cases even get the raw positional data BEFORE that is mushed into a 5.1 or 7.1 speaker-channel setup. You've just gotta make sure Windows and the games have the right settings.

You know that, in a Dolby stream, 7.1 is really 5.1 channels with two more rear channels "baked-in" or matrixed within the standard rear channels, right? Just make sure Windows and your game are set to output as many channels as possible, and the soundcard should handle the rest.


----------



## rudyae86

evshrug said:


> Soundblaster has different surround processing for stereo speakers and stereo headphones, changes when you switch modes between speakers/headphones in the SBX control panel. Both the Creative's have outputs to connect a 5.1 powered speaker setup, if you are inclined. Creative even sells a 5.1 speaker package.
> I'm Pretty Sure the Z can process 7.1, or in some cases even get the raw positional data BEFORE that is mushed into a 5.1 or 7.1 speaker-channel setup. You've just gotta make sure Windows and the games have the right settings.
> 
> You know that, in a Dolby stream, 7.1 is really 5.1 channels with two more rear channels "baked-in" or matrixed within the standard rear channels, right? Just make sure Windows and your game are set to output as many channels as possible, and the soundcard should handle the rest.




Huh, didnt know about that in dolby. And yes, its all been configured in windows and in games, so I guess I should be good thanks


But after playing a bit longer....

Im just surprised by the clarity and quality of the spund, i think I can hear more stuff now than before lol


----------



## cdsa35000

Z is a just true 5.1 card with 5.1 speakers actual outputs: 1) Front L/R 2) C/Sub 3)Rear L/R.
If have 7.1 surround= simulated Virtual 7.1 for Stereo headphones or Stereo speakers.

You'll need to find out which settings configuration/options can give you Virtual 7.1 headphones. 

Before any changes you need to exit SBZ control panel to reset it and then reopen.

 http://www.online-tech-tips.com/windows-7/setup-surround-sound-in-windows-7/

http://support.creative.com/kb/ShowArticle.aspx?sid=107597










1) It's possible that SBZ doesn't support virt 7.1 since there isn't any mention in the manual/info.
2) First disable any not used devices in windows Sound panel except Speakers Sound Blaster Z.
Disable: SPDIF-Out, Mic, Digital-In and What U Hear.

3) At windows Sound panel: Speakers SB Z Configuration: Is there the 7.1 Surround option besides the Stereo and 5.1 Surround?
If not have 7.1 then try Stereo, maybe that will trigger the 7.1 headphone option in SBZ panel.

4) At SBZ controlpanel Speakers/Headphones option: Headphones Configuration there should the 7.1 Test to test the virtual 7.1 positions.
http://www.hardwarezone.com.sg/review-creative-sound-blaster-evo-zx-headphones-every-feature-you-could-ask/features-108




http://www.overclock.net/t/1337761/official-creative-sound-blaster-z-zx-zxr-series-club/570

If not have that option than SBZ controls are different.

You'll need true 7.1 surround games or true 7.1 surround testfiles to test if there's virt 7.1 headphones:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/112-surround-music-formats/1504748-wanted-dolby-truehd-7-1-channel-test-file.html

5) Ask Creative Support if SBZ have virt. 7.1 Headphones and demand virt. 7.1 update! or return card.


----------



## genclaymore

The layout for the creative sound blaster z is different then the creative evo. For the Z you go into speaker tab and select 5.1 and then switch it to headphones in the same tab.  Then you go to the SBX tab and enable SBX surround. Also make sure the windows speaker settings it self is on 5.1, as well as games that has speaker settings. Then you all set, this also applies to the omni too as both has SBX options.


----------



## cdsa35000

The clue is does Z have *7.1 surround headphone* processing?
If not, you should complain to Creative for an update!


----------



## rudyae86

Well, I dont use speaker. Im only using headphones. So I did everything you guys did and there is only 5.1 and stereo. so i guess 7.1 isnt an option. Still sounds the same though honestly


----------



## StudioSound

cdsa35000 said:


> The clue is does Z have *7.1 surround headphone* processing?
> 
> If not, you should complain to Creative for an update!



 
It does not, but where are you seeing that the Recon3D supports 7.1? It's listed as 5.1 on Creative's website.


----------



## rudyae86

studiosound said:


> cdsa35000 said:
> 
> 
> > The clue is does Z have *7.1 surround headphone* processing?
> ...


 
 I have the recon3d usb. when i hook it up to my pc, and go to the sound control panel, i can set it to 7.1 or stereo


----------



## genclaymore

rudyae86 said:


> Well, I dont use speaker. Im only using headphones. So I did everything you guys did and there is only 5.1 and stereo. so i guess 7.1 isnt an option. Still sounds the same though honestly


 
 Whats important is you have the option to still do it rather its 5.1  and the sbx does work very well on the Z like it did on the omni i had. So no worries. You just have to config it correctly for it to work the way it should. Which why i mentioned the steps.


----------



## StudioSound

rudyae86 said:


> I have the recon3d usb. when i hook it up to my pc, and go to the sound control panel, i can set it to 7.1 or stereo



 
Perhaps the USB card does 7.1 then. I think the PCIe card is 5.1 like the Sound Blaster Z. I needed a PCIe device rather than USB.

Have you confirmed that you actually get different positional information for rear/side channels, rather than the driver simply accepting a 7.1 signal but mixing it to 5.1 before creating SBX/THX Surround mix?

The specs list Maximum Playback Quality as: 
5.1 : Up to 96kHz 
Stereo : Up to 48kHz


----------



## cdsa35000

studiosound said:


> rudyae86 said:
> 
> 
> > I have the recon3d usb. when i hook it up to my pc, and go to the sound control panel, i can set it to 7.1 or stereo
> ...




I've only the Recon3D USB and windows sound options are Stereo or 7.1 Surround.

With the game Wolvenstein 2009 you can select 5.1 and 7.1 and I can confirm that 7.1 is working distinctively better vs 5.1 with Recon3D Surround setting at 100%.

7.1 adds 2 extra side speakers SL and SR, example in game there's in front a damage steaming sissing pipeline and when panning (horizontally) around.
7.1 soundsfield is more fuller, broader, less sound gap and more seemless transition between the Front and Rear speakers.
---
I think for the pcie soundcardsTHX/SBX Surround does convert 7.1 into virt. 7.1 (adds virt. SL/SR surround) to 5.1 speakeroutputs or headphones, even they aren't specified.


> Creative description: SBX Pro Studio Pro Surround:
> SBX Pro Studio Pro Surround provides immersion control to enhance the natural sense of audio depth and spaciousness by creating virtual surround sound channels. Stereo content or multi-channel content played over stereo speakers and headphones will sound as if it were coming from all sides, while voices remain centered in front with the original balance and timbre preserved.



You'll need to find a game that have 5.1 and 7.1 surround to test/confirm you self.
If it doesn't do virt 7.1 surround, you complain the Creative for 7.1 software update, because virt. 7.1 Surround sounds more immersive and better!


----------



## StudioSound

If you are only able to set 7.1 or 2.0 in the Control Panel, setting a game like Wolfenstein to 5.1 means that it has to be upmixed before it gets processed by SBX.
It's no surprise that it would produce bad results.

You need to use 7,1 test signals to see whether you're actually getting discrete positioning for the rear/side channels or not.

And if surround is at 100% everything is getting blended together anyway. You should not set it above 67%.


----------



## cdsa35000

Yes, SBX will upmix any incoming channels into 7.1 but incase Wolfenstein 5.1, its just disable the SL/SR channels.
SBX 7.1 will fill-in the missing SL/SR by blending the audio (differences) between FL - RL= SL and FR - RR= SR.
These fake SL/SR are distinguishable with lacking sounddetails/directions and some volume decrease/soundgaps when compared with discrete 7.1.

http://www.eargamers.com/guides/how-to-test-surround-sound-headset/
http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/forum/124402-13-list-surround-sound-games

I can't find (ingame) 7.1 testsignals, so I'll trust my ears and Creative headphone controlpanel with the discrete 7.1 positions test audio, which automatically test it with Surround at 100% fixed.
I game with Surround between 40%-80% depending on game and mood.

Most ppl can't distinguish virt. 5.1/7.1 headphone sounds, so they and Creative dont care, hence the SBZ headphone controlpanel test only the Stereo position instead of 5.1/7.1 (if Im correct?)


----------



## genclaymore

cdsa35000 said:


> I've only the Recon3D USB and windows sound options are Stereo or 7.1 Surround.
> 
> With the game Wolvenstein 2009 you can select 5.1 and 7.1 and I can confirm that 7.1 is working distinctively better vs 5.1 with Recon3D Surround setting at 100%.
> 
> ...


 
 Well its a matter of opinion really, because differnet people will have different results including having different headphoness. CMSS3D headphone,Dobly Headphone and THX/SBX Pro results will variy on that factor too. As the different virtual headphone tech can either work good or bad depending on the headphones or total gear that is used. Also the way all of them handle it will be the first thing people notice when using it before they notice if they hear any additional upper or below sounds.
  
 Your EVO software also has a special setting for VR 7.1 , in fact that isn't the first time i seen that setting. Diamond had a sound card with a CM8828 chip i think which had the same exact option for headphones. I belive that setting that you have should be doing it in a slightly different way. Maybe for you, you find 7.1 to work better for 5.1. But people will have different results then you.
  
 Z/omni as well as C-media based card will upmixes if you have windows speaker settings set to stereo and the creative panel set to 5.1 or c-media panel, as the sound card then will try to upmix it the best it can. Tho some cards will have options to do it like DTS neo or if it is a X-fi then expand.
  
 The sound card will downmix when you have the windows speaker panel set to 5.1 with the creative panel set to 2.0 for speakers and Headphone mode for headphones. With this config SBX as well as both DH and CMSS3D Headphone will work the best set this way for headphones usage. If you set it to 2.0 and not headphone then it wont work good for headphones as it be config for speakers.
  
 For the headphone test i think it just a slight mistake on their part, as X-FI had headphone test worked to let you test to see if CMSS3D headphones was working correctly. the SBX test seem to be config to only see if your getting audio and nothing else.


----------



## cdsa35000

^^^Yes, you'll need a very sensitive/fast sounding headphone (i.e. with biocellulose/nano fibre drivers like SA3/5000, CD3000, Aurvana Live) and ext. headamp, to hear any significant differences/details in the small subtle soundnuances of virtual surround processing.
So when ppl can't hear the differences between 5.1 and 7.1 virt. surround, most likely their ears and/or headphones aren't sensitive or accurate enough.
The Surround intensity slider control are there to compensate any surround soundloss.

Because the (small reverberations) audiosignals involved to create the Virtual surroundfield for the stereo headphone L/R are derived from the mixing/processing of additions/substractions/phaseshftings/differentials between the interactions of the discrete multichannels 5.1/7.1 soundimage.


----------



## x7007

So not go go above SBX surround 67% or we can ?
  
 For example in BF4 Single player ( I don't know if there should be any different between single or multi ) I find it very hard to hear the shots location. it's like skyrim, when you are closer, everything comes from center headphones, there are no left or right, when you are close it's the same, when you are starting to go farther then you can do 180c  and start to hear from 3d surround from the location you are looking to the right side where it comes from.
  
 I'm using Home-Cinema + Surround + SBX 67% -  DD990 600ohms
  
 I can't decide if to use 33%-30% or 67% 
  
 I can't find the right game or test to check it what I like.


----------



## domoaligato

cdsa35000 said:


> If not, you should complain to Creative for an update!


 
  
 Why? If you read the specs it clearly says that it is 5.1
 http://www.soundblaster.com/products/sound-blaster-zxr.aspx#specs


----------



## StudioSound

x7007 said:


> So not go go above SBX surround 67% or we can ?
> 
> For example in BF4 Single player ( I don't know if there should be any different between single or multi ) I find it very hard to hear the shots location. it's like skyrim, when you are closer, everything comes from center headphones, there are no left or right, when you are close it's the same, when you are starting to go farther then you can do 180c and start to hear from 3d surround from the location you are looking to the right side where it comes from.
> 
> ...



 
I don't know what "Home Cinema" is but probably disable that. 
These settings will produce the most distinct directions:





Higher settings than 33% for Surround starts blending the channels together. Lower settings are not as effective.
If you don't like 33% I would use 67% or maybe 50%.

Check that the output is configured for headphones and not speakers:





Check that the device is configured to output 5.1 in the Control Panel:





When playing a game like Wolfenstein, I can easily track an enemy's position with my headphones when I'm behind cover and can't actually see them.


----------



## x7007

studiosound said:


> x7007 said:
> 
> 
> > So not go go above SBX surround 67% or we can ?
> ...


 
  
 Thanks, all the others settings I know, just can't find the best SBX surround %. it's hard to find the perfect point.
  
 The home cinema in BF4 is the Speakers config, you can choose Hi-Fi , Home Cinema , Headphones,  War Tapes. Home Cinema should have more/better Dynamic Range for studio headphones/5.1 speakers.   yes the 33% is better , but for some reason it leave the war sound, like flying chopper above, or distant vehicles and shoots. it feels like you are all alone. that's what I hear from the youtube videos that shows the different.


----------



## khb008

Hey Guys,
 I posted this on another forum but I think THIS is the correct place for it.  I really need your help with the Creative SB Zx card I just got, here is the problem i was having, I apologize for the lengthy post,  I ran into a few problems in terms of VoIP that I want to lay before you so that you can tell me whether I should return this or not.

Firstly, my setup is that: I'm running Windows 8.1 x64, Using ACM's BeamMic, Earbuds connected to the ACM and Speakers connected to Front Surround port in the rear. I was talking over Teamspeak and everything was going well. I was messing around with the settings until the person on the other end started to hear my computer audio along with my voice. (No, I did not activate "What you hear" input device). I tried to reset everything and made sure "Listen to this device" was not active. I even double and triple checked the input and output devices in TeamSpeak. I then decided to disconnect the speakers and the headphone, use windows sound recorder to record audio while playing music in iTunes. The recording captured the song playing in the background. I then disconnected the ACM and connected my old mic to the rear input and tried same thing again, and once again the sound recorder captures the audio playing even when no speakers or headphones are connected. The audio recorded is not of perfect quality but you can clearly make out the lyrics in the song that is playing.

After fidgeting for more than an hour, I've narrowed it down to the fact that IF I change the "Speaker Config" in Windows Playback devices section, then all of a sudden the Microphone starts to capture audio from my desktop. At least that is what I think triggers it, i'm not 100% sure. I've read several warnings to only set Windows settings once and never touch them again so fine, I can live with that. The next problem however is a lot more troublesome.

Second problem is that, even if I leave the Windows settings alone and reset the Pro Studio settings to default there is still SOME capture of the desktop's audio output. Its not as clear or as loud as with the other issue, BUT there is still something. I tried recording once again with speakers turned off and music playing with all the settings left to default. I ended up recording something that was soft and completely distorted audio. Can't even make out the lyrics of the song however you can clearly tell there is a beat and rhythm.

Unlike the other problem, I can't seem to figure out what is causing this. I've made a recording and uploaded it here for you to see. I was playing a song in the background The speakers are OFF and headphones are disconnected so it can't bee that the mic is picking up audio from those sources. I paused and played music several times to make sure that its not just random noise in the background. Here is the link:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/9706146/Example.wma
  
 Here is a screen shot of my "Default Devices" - Note that the Speakers are Turned OFF and the Headphones are Disconnected I'm playing music in iTunes that the Card is somehow picking up as input.
  
 https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/9706146/Default%20Devices%20with%20Music%20Playing.JPG

As you can imagine, this is really annoying for anyone talking to me over TeamSpeak since there this constantly in the background if I'm playing a game or listening to music. I'm really confused, is this a known issue with these cards? Can someone else test this for me? I.e. Play music while using sound recorder and having speakers turned off and volume turned UP.
  
Update:  Its crazy that while I was planning to buy this card, it had such great reviews (i.e. Best Seller on Amazon, Newegg, great reviews on Youtube) but I'm running into so many problems.  People are also saying that the ACM lowers sound quality and that the drivers have not seen support since almost a year, and are unlikely to be updated again.


----------



## rudyae86

Someone with more experience will hopefully help with you with this. Im still a noob with PCs, even though I read about them everyday lol
  
 But I have a feeling we wont see you again after your problem is fixed but thats common nowadays lol Good luck
  
 Your problem sounds almost like a driver issue but dont quote me on that.


----------



## khb008

Ahahah you misjudge me! I've been lurking on Head Fi for some time now trying to get into the Audiophile game.  Reading headphone reviews and what not.  I started on my journey with the sound card and due to which i'm running into pretty annoying problems.
  
 I should have clarified in the last post that my main use for this card would be Gaming as well as Music & Movies.   I do have some questions though pertaining to this card since i've been doing a lot of reading up on it maybe you or someone else can help with that?
  
 - My friend has a Creative card built into his mobo (Asus ROG series), I was really impressed with the 3D positional audio and other similar features which is why I bought this.  Are the Z-series really the best option for virtual surround gaming?  For some reason, he gets 7.1 virtual surround the Z-Series are capped at 5.1, since they are both virtual anyway, does it make a difference?
  
 - I've read that the ACM actually decreases audio quality of the headphones.  If this is the case, should I return it and just go for the Z? It will save me about $35 at this point
  
 - People are saying that since last driver update was 1 year ago and we are not likely to see driver updates again, the problems we have now are here to stay.  If this is the case then should I just return this for a refund and wait for a newer line of Sound Cards?  
  
 - I've also read that the new drivers basically remove the Stereo Mic capabilities of the beam mic and thus remove an essential feature that was advertised.  Whats up with that??
  
 I hope that you guys can help me figure this out.  As I mentioned, i'm just now getting into the audiophile niche and I really want to be here.  Another reason I wanted this card was that along with the gamer-friendly features, you also get a 600 ohm Amp which I was hoping to use to power a good set of headphones (e.g. HD598s or 558s w/ foam mod)


----------



## cdsa35000

khb008 said:


> Hey Guys,... (No, I did not activate "What you hear" input device). I tried to reset everything and made sure "Listen to this device" was not active. I even double and triple checked the input and output devices in TeamSpeak. ...



It's so simple just *Disable What U Hear *device, even marked as not active it's is active in background to capture/monitor any windows sound.
Think abit outside the "preassigned box" will help you DIY.


----------



## khb008

cdsa35000 said:


> It's so simple just *Disable What U Hear *device, even marked as not active it's is active in background to capture/monitor any windows sound.
> Think abit outside the "preassigned box" will help you DIY.


 
  
 Hi, thanks for replying.  I don't think that is the problem.  That is the first thing I tried as well, by disabling ALL but the default devices.  Right now, I just rechecked and made a recording, and even with "What U Hear" disabled, the input still picks up desktop audio.
  
 https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/9706146/WhatUHear%20Disabled.wma
  
 Secondly, its not that simple to be honest.  Of course the "What U Hear" device is picking up audio in the background, I showed that in the picture I posted in my last post.  However, by setting "Microphone" as my default, I shouldn't have to worry about what audio is running through which devices, right?


----------



## cdsa35000

^^^Then its audio crosstalk interference between inputs and outputs, try turn down the volumes to 0 and mute the inputs/speakers in the Z Mixer panel and windows Recording panel etc.
Try disable the mic and any recording devices and any not in use audio/optical in and out devices to find the culprit?

And as long the What U Hear device shows the green volume bar, it's still active.


----------



## khb008

Okay, I did as you said.  Muted the Inputs in Mixer Panel and turned system volume to 0.  The effect now disappears.  But what does this tell me?


----------



## khb008

If this is a matter of crosstalk within the connections and that means that this sound card is defective?  I've searched this thread and google for sound leaking into the input but haven't found much.  
  
 Should I return this card for a refund?  Is there any hope for the Sound Blaster Z series?
  
 I've been told to buy the Xonar of similar price but it seems from the tech specs of a similar priced zonar (e.g. DX) that the Sound Blaster is better in terms of Headphone Amp, SNR value, and bundled software.
  
 What do you guys think?


----------



## cheeno50

Hey, can someone give me a quick reply of the best (sbx pro studio) settings for cs go? Or to just turn them off altogether?
  
 Also do i select headphones or 5.1 speakers in-game (when i use actual headphones and have the headphone slider on)?


----------



## rudyae86

khb008 said:


> If this is a matter of crosstalk within the connections and that means that this sound card is defective?  I've searched this thread and google for sound leaking into the input but haven't found much.
> 
> Should I return this card for a refund?  Is there any hope for the Sound Blaster Z series?
> 
> ...


 
 I would say just return it. Thats it. Or if you want to try it again, get a replacement from them. Once you get a replacement, try it, if it still does the same. Return it, get full refund an thats it. No need to break your head trying to figure out something that you probably wont find the answer to. It seems the drivers are a hit or miss for alot of people depending on configuration set up of your pc and other drivers being involved. You might be that unlucky guy that has the wrong set up, in terms of drivers interfering with the sound blaster z drivers.
  
 Thats all I can suggest to you from here on out.


----------



## SoFGR

cheeno50 said:


> Hey, can someone give me a quick reply of the best (sbx pro studio) settings for cs go? Or to just turn them off altogether?
> 
> Also do i select headphones or 5.1 speakers in-game (when i use actual headphones and have the headphone slider on)?


 
 http://i.imgur.com/CgAx0u8.jpg
  
 this ^  + 5.1 in-game


----------



## cheeno50

Im late to this thread, But has it been determined if the ACM on the zxr diminishes the sound quality of headphones or not? Or is it better plugging right into the sound card?


----------



## cdsa35000

Why don't you test it yourself if you hear any differences?
Technically this extra passive link with volumepot and extra cable will degrade the audiosignals, but can also make it sound "better" to your ears of the extra "muffled" sounds like more warmer as "analog", only you can tell.


----------



## AvroArrow

So I finally got my SB Omni from the black friday sale.  Good: SBX works and is different than DH, ASIO and WASAPI playback in foobar2000 "kind of" works and doesn't completely freeze my PC when it can't handle it (like my old X-Fi Titanium).  Bad: It doesn't support 44.1kHz?!?! What?!?  I did a search through this thread and only 1 person kind of mentioned no 44.1kHz support in passing.
  
 Does nobody else use the SB Omni with ASIO/WASAPI playback with 16/44 files?  Without resorting to using an up-sampler I mean.  It only supports 48 or 96kHz.  foobar throws an error "sample rate of 44100Hz not supported by this device". 
  
 It seems that I naively assumed that any sound card that can do 24/96 could also do all the common sampling rates below, e.g. 44.1 & 48kHz.  95+% of my music collection is 16/44.  And no, I don't have room for the SB Z PCIe because I've got a pair of video cards in crossfire and no PCIe 1x slot above my top PCIe 16x slot.


----------



## genclaymore

If I recall I got it to do 44/16khz when i did Dsound in foorbar. I know it does it when the driver is not installed and using windows usb audio drivers.But i couldnt get it to do it with either asio or wasapi either without having to upsample.


----------



## x7007

Did anyone had this problem with his speakers/headphones ?
  
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hvxele5crc&list=UUgMXU4N4K-pyE8RHpKgAs9w
  
  
  
  
 http://www.overclock.net/t/1337761/official-creative-sound-blaster-z-zx-zxr-series-club/2980#post_23303566
  
 http://www.overclock.net/t/1337761/official-creative-sound-blaster-z-zx-zxr-series-club/2980#post_23305178
  
  
  
 Can someone post the issue to creative ? their stupid site doesn't work after you click submit and they want serial number + a receipt of buying.... pffff that's why I can't post this ****ty problem to them, I'm lazy to pull the card from the computer and find the receipt. 
 http://asia.creative.com/contactus/technicalassistance


----------



## ChristianM

Hi. need to know if sound blaster Z is good for my 18 ohms headphones Sennheiser Momentum over ear. the volume is very low in my PC which have realtek ALC1150. I'm gonna receive this card soon as a gift. I don't wanna open it and try it if it's not worth for my headphones. thanks


----------



## AUserName501

christianm said:


> Hi. need to know if sound blaster Z is good for my 18 ohms headphones Sennheiser Momentum over ear. the volume is very low in my PC which have realtek ALC1150. I'm gonna receive this card soon as a gift. I don't wanna open it and try it if it's not worth for my headphones. thanks


 
  
 The high output impedance of the Sound Blaster Z is going to cause problems with those low impedance dynamic headphones. I would get a Fiio E17 (not E17k) and run optical out from the soundcard to the E17 which has optical input. The E17 will power your momentums beautifully.


----------



## razorpakk

ausername501 said:


> The high output impedance of the Sound Blaster Z is going to cause problems with those low impedance dynamic headphones. I would get a Fiio E17 (not E17k) and run optical out from the soundcard to the E17 which has optical input. The E17 will power your momentums beautifully.


 
 I have a similar situation, with the same SBZ, Fidelio X2s and a Fiio E12A on the way.
 To have the best experience I should use the speaker output right?
 I'm asking because I've been trying switching between Headphone/Speaker out and the volume seems the same (probably just because of how easy to drive the X2s are).
  
 Any better alternative with this setup?


----------



## itsDanny

With such a huge soundstage with the AD700s, when gaming and positional cues are a focus, does setting the SBX Pro Studio Surround at a high % distort performance? i.e. would 33% be more optimal than 67%?


----------



## paulguru

I recently contact Creative for a problem of these products about the amplification gain setting not present.
 And Creative confirm it ! In the Z and ZX is not possible set the amplification gain for the headphone, then the card give always *permanent 600 ohm !!! *and Creative recommends to decreasing the volume from Windows.
  
  
*The questions are :*

*1 )* This situation still can give some problems so ? 
*2 )* If i plug a traditional headphone with 30-32 ohm the sound can be distorted or tampered than its original sound ?


----------



## AUserName501

Spoiler: Quote: paulguru



Originally Posted by *paulguru* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 





> I recently contact Creative for a problem of these products about the amplification gain setting not present.
> And Creative confirm it ! In the Z and ZX is not possible set the amplification gain for the headphone, then the card give always *permanent 600 ohm !!! *and Creative recommends to decreasing the volume from Windows.
> 
> 
> ...


 
  


  
 Use optical out to a DAC with optical input. I always recommend buying the cheapest sound card (Sound Blaster Z OEM) in their lineup for this reason. The higher output impedance of their soundcards and high power output mean that those soundcards are only really suited to high impedance, lower sensitivity headphones. I'll also have to get an X-Fi Surround 5.1 and see how well that works rather than having an internal soundcard.
  


Spoiler: Quote: razorpakk



Originally Posted by *razorpakk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 





> I have a similar situation, with the same SBZ, Fidelio X2s and a Fiio E12A on the way.
> To have the best experience I should use the speaker output right?
> I'm asking because I've been trying switching between Headphone/Speaker out and the volume seems the same (probably just because of how easy to drive the X2s are).
> 
> Any better alternative with this setup?


 
  


  
 Too much power going into E12A. I would buy the E17 (not E17K) and just use that because the X1/X2 is high sensitivity. Optical out on the soundcard to the optical input on the E17. Tick "play stereo mix to digital" in Creative control panel under Advanced Features. You could use a Modi 2 optical/Uber as the DAC if you want with the E12A but it's up to you. Returning the E12A and buying a used E17 would be cheaper.


----------



## paulguru

ausername501 said:


> Spoiler: Quote: paulguru
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 why u recomends optical input ? USB is not the same ?


----------



## AUserName501

Spoiler: Quote: paulguru



Quote: 





paulguru said:


> why u recomends optical input ? USB is not the same ?





 
  
 The soundcard only has Optical output. If you want to use SBX Pro Studio 5.1 Virtual Surround Sound without using the DAC/Amp inside the soundcard then you would use Optical out on the soundcard to a DAC with Optical input. The virtual surround sound processed audio (stereo) is then sent via Optical out from the soundcard to the external DAC. The reason you would do this is if you want to bypass the DAC/Amp in the soundcard which I would definitely want to do with high sensitivity, low impedance headphones and IEMs.


----------



## paulguru

ausername501 said:


> The soundcard only has Optical output. If you want to use SBX Pro Studio 5.1 Virtual Surround Sound without using the DAC/Amp inside the soundcard then you would use Optical out on the soundcard to a DAC with Optical input. The virtual surround sound processed audio (stereo) is then sent via Optical out from the soundcard to the external DAC. The reason you would do this is if you want to bypass the DAC/Amp in the soundcard which I would definitely want to do with high sensitivity, low impedance headphones and IEMs.


 
 i want use only 1 cable for output.


----------



## anthonyl

I have just installed a new Sound Blaster Zx sound card and am experiencing low voume with my new AKG K612 Pro headphones....
  
 Even when the volume is at 100% the sound I am hearing is very low...
  
 All volumes in Windows are on 100%
  
 Any clues tips please?


----------



## AUserName501

paulguru said:


> i want use only 1 cable for output.


 
  
 Can you tell me clearly what you want to do.
  


Spoiler: Quote: anthonyl



Originally Posted by *anthonyl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 





> I have just installed a new Sound Blaster Zx sound card and am experiencing low voume with my new AKG K612 Pro headphones....
> 
> Even when the volume is at 100% the sound I am hearing is very low...
> 
> ...


 
  


  
 Check your volume mixer to see if other applications are at a low volume.
  
 Have you plugged your headphones into the correct jack?


----------



## anthonyl

ausername501 said:


> Can you tell me clearly what you want to do.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 All other volume sliders are at 100% and headphone is connected to the correct jack.
  
 I have also plugged the headphones directly into the sound card to see if the break out unit was the problem but the volume was the same.
  
 I am getting terrible sound from this.... muffled sound...low volume...


----------



## paulguru

ausername501 said:


> Can you tell me clearly what you want to do.


 
 I want have less cables possible
 only 1 power cord for the wall and only 1 output cable from PC
  
 If i plug a low impedance headphone in the SB-Z ( with permanent and much highter impedance ) what happen ?
 Will be sufficient decreasing the volume or the sound will change ?


----------



## AUserName501

Spoiler: Quote: anthonyl



Originally Posted by *anthonyl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 





> All other volume sliders are at 100% and headphone is connected to the correct jack.
> 
> I have also plugged the headphones directly into the sound card to see if the break out unit was the problem but the volume was the same.
> 
> I am getting terrible sound from this.... muffled sound...low volume...


 
  


  
 I would try with another computer if you can but it sounds faulty to me.
  
  


Spoiler: Quote: paulguru



Originally Posted by *paulguru* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 





> I want have less cables possible
> only 1 power cord for the wall and only 1 output cable from PC
> 
> If i plug a low impedance headphone in the SB-Z ( with permanent and much highter impedance ) what happen ?
> Will be sufficient decreasing the volume or the sound will change ?





 
 What headphones are you using? I can give you an easy answer if you tell me what headphones you want to use.
  
 It depends on the sensitivity of the headphone. If the headphone is very high sensitivity then you will have to turn the volume slider in Windows down very low and you may not have much control over volume because each step of 1 in Windows volume control will make headphones much louder or quieter.
  
 The higher output impedance of the soundcard may make the bass softer and less tight but this depends on the impedance of the headphones.
  
 You can't use balanced armature driver IEMs because the high output impedance will drastically change the frequency response and affect the crossovers. IEMs are usually far too high sensitivity to be used with these soundcards anyway.
  
 To give an example. I was using Etymotic ER-4PT IEMs with SBX Pro Studio 6.1 VSS. I used Optical out on the Sound Blaster Z (OEM) to a Fiio E17. The Fiio E17 then did the digital to analogue conversion and was also the amplifier. The E17 has an output impedance of less than 1ohm and you can adjust volume easily without it becoming too loud or quiet. I had the benefits of SBX Pro Studio virtual surround sound while also being able to use my IEMs.


----------



## paulguru

ausername501 said:


> What headphones are you using? I can give you an easy answer if you tell me what headphones you want to use.
> 
> It depends on the sensitivity of the headphone. If the headphone is very high sensitivity then you will have to turn the volume slider in Windows down very low and you may not have much control over volume because each step of 1 in Windows volume control will make headphones much louder or quieter.
> 
> ...


 
 I will use Philips Fidelio X2


----------



## AUserName501

paulguru said:


> I will use Philips Fidelio X2


 

 Should be ok. Try it with the soundcard first. Bass will likely be softer due to the higher output impedance of the soundcard but the different isn't going to be huge.


----------



## paulguru

ausername501 said:


> Should be ok. Try it with the soundcard first. Bass will likely be softer due to the higher output impedance of the soundcard but the different isn't going to be huge.


 
 maybe its better to give up surround


----------



## razorpakk

ausername501 said:


> Spoiler: Quote: paulguru
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I will use the E12A also with other equipment, so I guess I'll keep things like this until I have money for the Shiit (by the way, any other Dac to pair up with the E12a that is sold in the UK? Between customs and the shipping cost it becomes quite pricy).
  
 P.S. What about the first Fiio D3?


----------



## AUserName501

paulguru said:


> maybe its better to give up surround


 
  
 Use Razer Surround then.


razorpakk said:


> I will use the E12A also with other equipment, so I guess I'll keep things like this until I have money for the Shiit (by the way, any other Dac to pair up with the E12a that is sold in the UK? Between customs and the shipping cost it becomes quite pricy).
> 
> P.S. What about the first Fiio D3?


 
  
 You could use the D3k. It's not the best DAC and rolls off in the very high frequency but it isn't terrible.


----------



## razorpakk

I think I'll save up for a few weeks for the E-DAC (British odac).


----------



## AUserName501

razorpakk said:


> I think I'll save up for a few weeks for the E-DAC (British odac).


 
  
 You'll only be able to use Razer Surround or New Audio Technology Spatial Sound Card. NAT SSC sounds pretty damn good with it's many room modes though it's quite expensive.


----------



## razorpakk

Oh I don't mind losing the SBX features, I've never used them!


----------



## bcschmerker4

paulguru said:


> I recently contact Creative for a problem of these products about the amplification gain setting not present.
> And Creative confirm it ! In the Z and ZX is not possible set the amplification gain for the headphone, then the card give always *permanent 600 ohm !!! *and Creative recommends to decreasing the volume from Windows.
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Sakes alive, does Creative Technology expect us to use the Pioneer® SE-700, or perhaps the TakeT® H2/TR2 kit, with the SB1500, SB1502 and/or SB1506?  I haven't had a chance to run my medium-Z auditions, as of 5 January 2015.


----------



## stalleyy

Hi, I have the sound blaster z card. I use headphones and when i select stereo direct i get no sound. Is stereo direct for speakers only?
 thanks


----------



## anthonyl

Took the Sound Blaster Zx back and got a full refund.. My Titanium Fatal1ty Pro sounds so much better than the Zx....so much better.


----------



## Evshrug

paulguru said:


> I recently contact Creative for a problem of these products about the amplification gain setting not present.
> And Creative confirm it ! In the Z and ZX is not possible set the amplification gain for the headphone, then the card give always *permanent 600 ohm !!!* and Creative recommends to decreasing the volume from Windows.
> 
> 
> ...




The 600 ohm setting means the GAIN is always the same (pretty high gain), not that the OUTPUT IMPEDANCE is that high. I think you mixed together those specifications by mistake.

High gain means the volume will be quite loud, I have my windows set for 24-bit/196kHz audio and then the volume dialed down to like 20-28% and it sounds fine.

Now, the Z and Zx have like 22* ohms output impedance... That's completely separate from what you asked creative. That output impedance makes bass levels higher in some headphones, possibly high enough to cause distortion, but not all headphones react the same. You should hear no effect if the headphones have a flat/mostly flat impedance response curve (see headroom or InnerFidelity for charts), your headphone is a planar magnetic type, or if your headphone has about 8x the impedance (~150 ohms or higher, close to 150 ohms will have minimal effect). Sometimes the effect is mild and people like it, people have used headphones plugged into home theater receivers for years and many of those have quite high output impedances.

Creative's newer top-of-the-line X7 has about a 2 Ohm output impedance, which is great for almost any headphone without dampening so much that the headphone sounds thin.


----------



## paulguru

evshrug said:


> The 600 ohm setting means the GAIN is always the same (pretty high gain), not that the OUTPUT IMPEDANCE is that high. I think you mixed together those specifications by mistake.
> 
> High gain means the volume will be quite loud, I have my windows set for 24-bit/196kHz audio and then the volume dialed down to like 20-28% and it sounds fine.
> 
> ...


 
 Z and Zx result have 22ohm in output
 not 10-14


----------



## Evshrug

paulguru said:


> Z and Zx result have 22ohm in output
> not 10-14



Okay, so substitute that info, and pretty much all the rest of my post still stands. Thanks for the accurate info.


----------



## paulguru

evshrug said:


> Okay, so substitute that info, and pretty much all the rest of my post still stands. Thanks for the accurate info.


 
 this means that SBZ is a false good sound card


----------



## Evshrug

paulguru said:


> this means that SBZ is a false good sound card



-_-
I mean, I wouldn't use an SBZ with an IEM, but it sounded great with my AKG's, "problem" solved. Lower output impedance on the sound card would be nice, but I think it's more relevant to find out if a headphone has an uneven impedance response... Saying a stereotype like "the SBZ is a bad sound card" is like a stereotype saying "French people smell bad," it's just ignorant thinking and not true in every case.


----------



## paulguru

evshrug said:


> -_-
> I mean, I wouldn't use an SBZ with an IEM, but it sounded great with my AKG's, "problem" solved. Lower output impedance on the sound card would be nice, but I think it's more relevant to find out if a headphone has an uneven impedance response... Saying a stereotype like "the SBZ is a bad sound card" is like a stereotype saying "French people smell bad," it's just ignorant thinking and not true in every case.


 
 ok but an hifi products is done for high fidelity sound, if you give and incorrect source the targets of this products are gone.
 I dont remember if you or another users here say me that an high output impedance alters the bass and mid-bass, then lose the original sound of headphone, right ?  
 around 70-80% of the headphone in the markets have low impedance, means SB-Z is not perfect for these.
  
 AKG are excellent studio monitors, if you change the sound, will no longer be precise.


----------



## Evshrug

*If* a headphone's impedance response is non-linear, *and* the headphone has it's own impedance less than about 8x the amp's output impedance (in this case the SB Z), *then* the original sound of the headphone is altered with boosted and looser bass (and sometimes "looser" treble too).

AKGs are indeed great studio monitors, but also the 700 series (K701, Q701, K712, and I think the K601 and K612 too) are examples of a headphone with a quite linear impedance response, so even though they have 62 ohms impedance they will have only a negligible change in their sound based alone on the output impedance of an amp.

From headroom' build-a-graph page, a word on impedance:


> Impedance
> The sum of both resistive and reactive impeding forces of a load. Headphone impedance commonly changes with frequency, and would become somewhat inductive or capacitive at different frequencies.





Examples:





The red line, a Sennheiser HD650, IS susceptible to being changed if it doesn't have the 8x impedance dampening... See the peaks and dips?
The other headphones are pretty popular, AKG Q701, Beyerdynamic DT880 (32 Ohm version), even the more "pop" VMODA M100. Flat impedance responses like these would work well with the SBZ. Headroom and InnerFidelity are great resources for this info. Now, a headphone that needs 8x impedance dampening is more common, BUT You might be surprised by how many headphones wouldn't have much affect from the output impedance of an amp.


----------



## paulguru

tank you so much for explain


----------



## anthonyl

I can only speak from my own experience with a Zx and AKG 612 Pro's.
  
 The Zx did not drive my AKG's very well at all. In fact the Zx didn't sound good AT ALL when compared to my Titanium Fatal1ty Pro.
  
 I kept my Titanium and purchased a cheapish headphone amp and boy what a difference that made. I will now be looking at beter amps / dac combos to enhance the experience even more.


----------



## Evshrug

anthonyl said:


> I can only speak from my own experience with a Zx and AKG 612 Pro's.




Right, your experience with a sample size unit of one, and your choice to return that unit instead of working with tech support to determine if your Zx unit was defective or if there was a computer software issue at play.

Your experience is completely valid and indeed dedicated amps will be a step-up in performance (I often use an external amp, too!), just keep in mind that your experience wasn't typical when you make suggestions to others. Defective units and software problems happen, to say that result will happen for everyone is inaccurate, especially since I already pointed out that my experience was a counter-example. To continue spreading around a wrong assumption in light of counter-examples and suggestions to help would be ...


----------



## anthonyl

I wasn't making suggestions to others...i was only pointing out the experience I had.
  
 As far as "working with tech support" ..your joking right. Have you been to the Creative "tech support forum"? People have been waiting months for replies to questions.
  
 I had a small window of opportunity to return the card and get a full refund or alternatively hope and pray that Creative tech support get back to me within the year to resolve my problem... I chose wisely.


----------



## rudyae86

evshrug said:


> Right, your experience with a sample size unit of one, and your choice to return that unit instead of working with tech support to determine if your Zx unit was defective or if there was a computer software issue at play.
> 
> Your experience is completely valid and indeed dedicated amps will be a step-up in performance (I often use an external amp, too!), just keep in mind that your experience wasn't typical when you make suggestions to others. Defective units and software problems happen, to say that result will happen for everyone is inaccurate, especially since I already pointed out that my experience was a counter-example. To continue spreading around a wrong assumption in light of counter-examples and suggestions to help would be ...


 
 I like you EVshrug 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 And I have to agree with you. Its part of electronics. Nothing is perfect. I even bet that something very small within his set up, may have been the culprit of his problems. I remember when I use to get BSODS after 2 months of building my PC. It gets frustrating, I know....its part of the PC Master Race... but after searching, having patience, trying to fix, etc, etc...the end result is rewarding. And what was my problem with those BSODs? A dam video card driver problem lol


----------



## Evshrug

I built a computer and it wouldn't boot or post, even after checking a few times in another system that each component worked... I fixed it, turns out the operating system I was using required the monitor to be connected to a DVI output the first time for setup.

And I do believe that people learn and change, I just also stand up for what I believe, even if it makes me look "hard" sometimes. Anthony was specifically going to different threads and saying the Zx is too quiet for the K612 (and sounds terrible). It's not that THE Zx can't amp the headphone loud enough, HIS Zx didn't. If I recall correctly, he also asked for advice and was considering the Zx, several people said getting the Z gives him the same card but costing less because it doesn't come with the control puck gimmik, it didn't even seem like he was listening/reading then either.

Anthony,
The forums aren't how you get support from Creative... They have an official page to request a support ticket. The link for the product you don't have anymore is here:
http://support.creative.com/warranty/obtainrma.aspx?pid=21384&cid=1&h=16

I found it by clicking the "customer support" of the creative main page, clicking technical support, then clicking sound blaster and Zx support, and listed among the quick links in the sidebar is an option that reads "how to obtain tech support" and also "submit a service request." If you registered your Fatality Recon soundcard, I believe the "link" you can click there doesn't care which product page it's coming from, you just type in the serial number of the device you need service for. That way, you can get support in the future instead of finding your way to the forums.

I used creative tech support for my Recon3D USB and my Omni, they emailed me back the next day and we started troubleshooting the issue. I learned in addition to fixing my issue. I don't remember ever going to the forums.


----------



## rudyae86

I always think of their forums as a place for people to complain lol


----------



## Evshrug

I mean, I was trying to help and annoyed from not being listened to, so I know I'm gonna get flack for putting my foot in it.


----------



## NCSUZoSo

Guys there is a Windows Update popping up for my ZXR.  Is this just a WHQL driver that has finally made its way to Windows Update or is this a low level driver that we should update?  Last time I tried to update my ZXR drivers I swore I'd never do it again unless there was a very good reason because it took me days to get it back to normal.  I had to try the card in probably 3 different slots and what happened was the driver install froze in the middle.  Trying to get that off and put the old one (that doesn't freeze) back on took far too long to bother with it unless we have a reason.  Basically is that just a Creative WHQL driver?


----------



## genclaymore

evshrug said:


> I mean, I was trying to help and annoyed from not being listened to, so I know I'm gonna get flack for putting my foot in it.


 

 Yea people over there is known to do that. You try to help them with something and they skip over you to another person suggestions. Tho I have had that happened to me on another forum but it does get annoying.


----------



## rudyae86

ncsuzoso said:


> Guys there is a Windows Update popping up for my ZXR.  Is this just a WHQL driver that has finally made its way to Windows Update or is this a low level driver that we should update?  Last time I tried to update my ZXR drivers I swore I'd never do it again unless there was a very good reason because it took me days to get it back to normal.  I had to try the card in probably 3 different slots and what happened was the driver install froze in the middle.  Trying to get that off and put the old one (that doesn't freeze) back on took far too long to bother with it unless we have a reason.  Basically is that just a Creative WHQL driver?


 

 I want to say that its the same whql driver thats posted on their website as well.
  
 I have downloaded but have not installed it.....mainly becuase I have no problems so far with my SB Z


----------



## Evshrug

genclaymore said:


> Yea people over there is known to do that. You try to help them with something and they skip over you to another person suggestions. Tho I have had that happened to me on another forum but it does get annoying.



It's just that he set a perspective for himself and kept his mind closed to changing that; okay, whatever, I see people like that every day, and I know they'll rarely consider changing their conclusions even if you try a few times. Where I put my foot down (for his action or when anyone else makes similar statements) is when people state a misconception on a highly trafficked place where people internationally stumble into looking for peer info. Put simply, his experience won't apply to almost anyone else. So, for the anonymous lurker looking for peer info, I felt I had to provide a counter-example and prevent the wrong impression... at least for a day, till new thread posts bury the whole thing. I've been here on head-fi about 6 years now, and I'll be here and interested in this hobby for a long time yet... others don't care about the community and just pop in like mayflies with their questions, then disappear soon as they feel their question is answered.

What surprised me was that someone gave me reputation on my post countering him!

Now, if he does come back, I'm not saying he doesn't have anything to contribute, so he might point out some awesome settings or a headphone review, I am just saying this time he wasn't telling the whole story and didn't even realize he doesn't know the whole story himself.


----------



## rudyae86

Well, lately we have been getting alot of junior headfiers just wanting the easy answer.....
  
 "whats the best headphone and amp for FPS gaming?"
  
 "Whats the best headphone?"
  
 "Best headphone?"
  
 "best?"
  
 or
  
 "Im thinking of getting the X2 or the K712, what do you guys recommend?" (And ends up buying some portable closed back headphone and says, "wow, these sound awesome!")
  
 And most of these people, I have not seen ever since......


----------



## anthonyl

Just for the record.
  
 I am not a fly by night teenager..I am 55 years old. Have been in the I.T and related industries for 30+ years.
  
 Have built more systems for more people than I care to remember on just about every continent... I also have 6 children living with me at home and to cut a long story short dont have time to fk around.
  
 The Zx in my mind was working (according to it's specifications) but when compared to the current soundcard that was and now still is installed in my PC (sound blaster Titanium Fatal1ty Pro) it sounded like an inferior product. To back this up I had 2 of my neighbours come in and (blind tested them) asked them which sound card sounded better when playing them the exact same song / sound / game. They both said the Titanium sounded better with better sound quality etc etc.
  
 I also believe that there was nothing anyone could have done to make the sounds sound any better from the Zx.
  
 I was fortunate enough to have a soundcard to evaluate the Zx against and it was not my ears alone that picked the better sounding card. And I wager than given the same opportunity many more people would agree.
  
 That's the story.


----------



## genclaymore

Was you using the extender box that came with the ZX. It known to effect the sound quality to the point that most people don't use it and toss it in the closet.


----------



## Evshrug

•Wasn't calling you young or old. I made the mayfly analogy because people do come and go, perhaps most, but of course I enjoy when people join the community – and this quibble will pass as water under the bridge regardless. On the bright side, I wouldn't have made any guesses to your age based on anything you said, so that's pretty good right?

•Your story doesn't account for the fact that 20-30% windows volume is the usable range for most people in this thread/with the same card. I'm confident your surprise that setting your Zx to 100% only produced meek results was justified surprise. With that result, no headphone would sound right with your unit. Of course you don't HAVE to know why it happened, but I feel someone ought to point out that we don't know everything... I know I don't know everything either!

•Contacting Creative support service =/= Creative Community support forum, hopefully now that resource will serve you if you need it for the card you're happy with.

•I genuinely hope this topic doesn't upset your sleep tonight, I'm not aiming for contention. I work in IT too (not in audio), and I hate it when people get me worked up and I can't sleep for hours. For third parties I still say the experience you had was not typical. Anything I say doesn't make you any less whole or good as a person, all I'm saying (in different ways) is since others including myself had a different experience then there is an unknown factor in your previous situation.


----------



## Evshrug

genclaymore said:


> Was you using the extender box that came with the ZX. It known to effect the sound quality to the point that most people don't use it and toss it in the closet.




No, he said he tried his K612 plugged straight into the card. He did a fair amount of self-diagnosis, and at that point his only remaining options were contacting external resources or returning the card for a refund, and he already opted for the latter.

Wasn't there one or two people on this thread around this time last year with the same issue? I missed if they posted their resolutions.


----------



## Nielo TM

Does anyone know how to get the best out of SoundBlaster Z? I'm using PFE 112 and it doesn't need to be amped. 
  
 Should I use OUTPUT 1 as opposed to headphone (assuming OUTPUT 1 is line-out)? If so, should I select Stereo or *Stereo Direct*? Does the Full Range Speaker settings make any difference?


----------



## genclaymore

Yea that case it sound like the K612 and the sound blaster ZX wasn't a good match together as their sound signature clash with each other. Things like that tend to happen a lot,usually people with another pair of headphones will different results with the same card. Kinda like how I tried out the omni to see how it headphone amp would do with the T90,When I was using it as a source for the little dot amp, Since it suppose to use the same one the Z/ZX uses. Which it did ok and would pass if one haven't used the T90 with a External amp. Of course in my cast it didn't since I was used to the T90 being ran from the Little dot MK2 I had at the time. But same meaning
  
 I think there was people with the same issue, I don't recall if they posted their fixes or not. But I would guess they either switch to the ZXR or another card or went external with or without the said card.


----------



## Evshrug

rudyae86 said:


> Well, lately we have been getting alot of junior headfiers just wanting the easy answer.....
> 
> "whats the best headphone and amp for FPS gaming?"
> "Whats the best headphone?"
> ...



Well, those junior/newbie head fi'ers are the mayflies I meant, and that's always existed (you just become more sensitive to it with time). You can't always predict when a junior head-fi'er will turn into a contributor though, or if you'll end up friends one day if you let it happen.

*scratches beard*
I'm not always (usually not) a stubborn jackass, but when I am... I drink Dos Equos (kidding).


----------



## rudyae86

Hmmmm Dos Equis sounds good right now....
  
 But I just got sick, throat hurts, head hurts, coughing......
  
 But I still enjoy my K7XX with my SB Z while Playing BF4 lol.
  
 Question though....
  
 You said that most users with a k712, when having it connected straight to the SB Z, run 20 to 30 percent volume in windows?
  
 Im running 100 percent in windows and about 70 percent in bf4......
  
 Im wondering if my K7XX are simply slightly harder to drive, defective SB Z or Im getting deaf lol


----------



## NCSUZoSo

I'm troubleshooting my Aune T1's amp PCB right now so I am using the ZXR to drive my HP150s.  I had no idea how loud the ZXR is at driving headphones and I used to do this before I had the T1.  On normal gain settings I can't even get past 25% volume before it is getting in the area of damaging volumes (to your ears).  Is everyone getting this type of volume level?  My mods to the card have nothing to do with volume level.  The upgraded op-amps I guess could be louder in theory, but that isn't something I've ever heard someone say in the op-amp thread.


----------



## Fegefeuer

That's normal. I couldn't get past 25-28 with the HD 800.


----------



## Evshrug

With my Q701, K712, K612, HD700, Stax SR-X mkIII and SoundBlaster Z, Omni, and X7, the volume has always been set around 20-30% with all combos, unless I connect to an external amp.


----------



## rudyae86

evshrug said:


> With my Q701, K712, K612, HD700, Stax SR-X mkIII and SoundBlaster Z, Omni, and X7, the volume has always been set around 20-30% with all combos, unless I connect to an external amp.


 
 So, is something wrong with my SB Z? I have it set to 100% in windows. Its loud, but with you guys saying that 20 to 30% percents its already loud...im concerned..


----------



## Evshrug

If it's loud enough, maybe you can just enjoy it, but if it sounds weird or becomes quiet then I'd recommend using the link I found earlier to contact Creative, see what they say. Doesn't seem to be a pressing issue from what you're saying, but I'd be curious what they'd say.

Who knows, maybe mine are the unusual ones for being unusually loud? or maybe there were two "revisions" of the soundcard? Idk


----------



## benbenkr

ncsuzoso said:


> Guys there is a Windows Update popping up for my ZXR.  Is this just a WHQL driver that has finally made its way to Windows Update or is this a low level driver that we should update?  Last time I tried to update my ZXR drivers I swore I'd never do it again unless there was a very good reason because it took me days to get it back to normal.  I had to try the card in probably 3 different slots and what happened was the driver install froze in the middle.  Trying to get that off and put the old one (that doesn't freeze) back on took far too long to bother with it unless we have a reason.  Basically is that just a Creative WHQL driver?


 
  
 Quite a late reply but if you have not updated then here's the low-down: *don't bother*.
  
 The WHQL driver is basically the _*EXACT SAME*_ driver that has been around since the ASIO fix for the ZxR. That means it's been nearly 2 years. Every "new" driver from Creative since then has just resulted in a change of the date.
  
 This has been proven many times on OCN and also by me. Creative finally got a WHQL stamp from MS, so that's why you're getting it on Windows Update.


----------



## rudyae86

evshrug said:


> If it's loud enough, maybe you can just enjoy it, but if it sounds weird or becomes quiet then I'd recommend using the link I found earlier to contact Creative, see what they say. Doesn't seem to be a pressing issue from what you're saying, but I'd be curious what they'd say.
> 
> Who knows, maybe mine are the unusual ones for being unusually loud? or maybe there were two "revisions" of the soundcard? Idk


 
 Well, its quite loud. I want to say my hearing is already suffering, especially ever since all those crazy loud parties and concerts I have been to since I was 18, as well as listening to high volume or max on my phone and headphones lol. Its still plenty loud at 100% in windows and and 70% in BF4. Where it gets really loud is when Im watching youtube videos. I actually have to keep it down to like 30 percent. Spotify I keep it around 70 as well.
  
 But when I play music thats in my PC, no streaming....its gets pretty loud as well.
  
 But I will give them a call next week or so and see what they have to say.


----------



## cdsa35000

rudyae86 said:


> Well, its quite loud. I want to say my hearing is already suffering, especially ever since all those crazy loud parties and concerts I have been to since I was 18, as well as listening to high volume or max on my phone and headphones lol. Its still plenty loud at 100% in windows and and 70% in BF4. Where it gets really loud is when Im watching youtube videos. I actually have to keep it down to like 30 percent. Spotify I keep it around 70 as well.
> 
> But when I play music thats in my PC, no streaming....its gets pretty loud as well.
> 
> But I will give them a call next week or so and see what they have to say.




I don't think the soundcard is the problem, the different volumelevels of the diverse audio sources is the problem.
i.e with (DVD) movies, besides setting the volume to100%, also to use some software volume booster and/or using the volume normalizer etc.

My recon3d stay mostly at 100% volume to headamp and only when something is too loud like some youtube vids, then I decrease the in-youtube's volume control or windows volume control abit.


----------



## stalleyy

rudyae86 said:


> Well, its quite loud. I want to say my hearing is already suffering, especially ever since all those crazy loud parties and concerts I have been to since I was 18, as well as listening to high volume or max on my phone and headphones lol. Its still plenty loud at 100% in windows and and 70% in BF4. Where it gets really loud is when Im watching youtube videos. I actually have to keep it down to like 30 percent. Spotify I keep it around 70 as well.
> 
> But when I play music thats in my PC, no streaming....its gets pretty loud as well.
> 
> But I will give them a call next week or so and see what they have to say


 
 I think somethings wrong with the card lol. I have the sound blaster Z and I can't pass at 35% for anything
 Edit: I've used hd598, crossfade LP, LP2, and shure 750dj. 35% is super loud for all of them


----------



## rudyae86

stalleyy said:


> I think somethings wrong with the card lol. I have the sound blaster Z and I can't pass at 35% for anything
> Edit: I've used hd598, crossfade LP, LP2, and shure 750dj. 35% is super loud for all of them





I'm using a K7XX so maybe that's why. When I use it with my M50....I can't go above 35 or I'll blow my ears out


----------



## cdsa35000

rudyae86 said:


> I'm using a K7XX so maybe that's why. When I use it with my M50....I can't go above 35 or I'll blow my ears out


----------



## rudyae86

cdsa35000 said:


>




?


----------



## cdsa35000

K7XX's impedance= 62 Ohms, M50's impd.= 38 Ohms.
Means K7XX impd. resistance is almost twice bigger, so the volume input-level needs also twice louder than M50 to give same volume output-level.


----------



## rudyae86

cdsa35000 said:


> K7XX's impedance= 62 Ohms, M50's impd.= 38 Ohms.
> Means K7XX impd. resistance is almost twice bigger, so the volume input-level needs also twice louder than M50 to give same volume output-level.




Yes, I seem to know that but Evshrug has AKG headphones with the same impedance and still has his volume at around 30-35. So, I guess I might have to call creative support and see what's up. 

Edit: Actually, what is the return window from when Black Friday? I somewhat recall them SAYING they were going to extend their return date up to January 15th.....anyone knows?


----------



## AUserName501

cdsa35000 said:


> K7XX's impedance= 62 Ohms, M50's impd.= 38 Ohms.
> Means K7XX impd. resistance is almost twice bigger, so the volume input-level needs also twice louder than M50 to give same volume output-level.


 
  
 Sensitivity is what matters not impedance. Look in the bottom right for the PDF documents linked below. K7xx sensitivity is the same as K712.
  
AKG K712 - 0.84mW/0.237 Vrms to reach 90dB SPL
  
Audio Technica M50x - 0.05mW/0.042 Vrms to reach 90dB SPL
  
 K712 needs 17 times more power to reach 90dB SPL than the M50x.


----------



## cdsa35000

^^^ You're Right, was too lazy to dig in the matter/specs/detail, good job you!


----------



## rudyae86

ausername501 said:


> Sensitivity is what matters not impedance. Look in the bottom right for the PDF documents linked below. K7xx sensitivity is the same as K712.
> 
> AKG K712 - 0.84mW/0.237 Vrms to reach 90dB SPL
> 
> ...




I understand that as well. But what I'm actually wondering is that why Evshrug's sets his volume in windows at 35 while using his K712 which is similar to the K7XX...?


----------



## Evshrug

Well, the source's volume level could be taken into account too. Cdsa35000 pointed out one example, some YouTube videos encoded with lower volume output, I know I have CD's that are louder/quieter than others (iTunes sound check helps a bit with that), etc.

But beyond that, I think the software sometimes gets mixed up between all the places you can set it. I had an experience two nights ago where I turned on my computer with the X7 off, windows volume was set to something like 80-90%. I turned on the X7 and saw the volume setting in the control panel wasn't linked to the same % setting, and I thought "oh, this is odd," I played some audio (a game, I think?) and volume was fine. Then, I thought "Well, if THAT's the case, then I want my window's volume high to preserve the bitrate integrity" and turned up the X7 control panel's volume a bit, and put on a song from iTunes and OMGOMGAAAHHH!!! Way loud! Immediately took off the headphones, then turned down the volume, and apparently I hadn't made myself deaf because I heard my roommate say "Woah." 
I said "ow" of course.
"You mean you didn't mean to do that?"
"No, of course not, that was WAY too loud!"

XD

But my ears weren't ringing, so I was lucky. Seems my computer linked the volume back with the control panel setting, so... I intermittently experienced a moment of what happened for those with problems. Everyone, please be careful! That never happened before I updated my computer to Win 8.1, and separate from the OS my computer's starting to have some random errors and I'll probably do a wipe and restore-as-new soon. DMC starts having framerate and lip sync issues after playing for an hour.


----------



## plath

plath said:


> Could someone please help me? I can't seem to get my 2.1 speakers to work with my Sound Blaster Z except in headphones configuration. Stereo, etc produce no sound. Using 8.1 and the latest Sound Blaster drivers. The speakers are just some old Harman Kardon HK395s
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Just got a new pair of speakers. Logitech Z623 2.1. They still won't work unless I put them under the "headphones" configuration, Stereo and Stereo direct don't work. Anyone have any ideas on what's going on? Duff card?


----------



## cdsa35000

plath said:


> Just got a new pair of speakers. Logitech Z623 2.1. They still won't work unless I put them under the "headphones" configuration, Stereo and Stereo direct don't work. Anyone have any ideas on what's going on? Duff card?



Did you connect the speakers to the SBZ Speakerouts Front L/R: [}-1.
From top the 3rd jack output:

And if you had try that many moons ago, than maybe card's defect?


plath said:


> post #2370 of 2677
> 8/29/14
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Evshrug

Wow cdsa35000, good find re: old post. I had forgotten that, basically when Plath didn't respond I assumed that he had tried the other jack, and then I promptly forgot. I wouldn't have thought to check his posting history!

@plath,
Like glenclaymore and cdsa were getting at, you ideally would want your headphones plugged into the headphone jack, speakers in the left/right front speaker jacks (pointed out in cdsa's picture and the user manual), and subwoofer in the center/subwoofer jack next to that. That way, you shouldn't have to re-wire anything, just flick settings from headphones to speakers. It could be the card, if you need to contact Creative I posted a link to contact their support team (not the forums) just a few pages back in this thread.


----------



## anthonyl

Glad I took my Zx back the next day for a full refund. Won't be going that route again in a hurry.


----------



## Evshrug

anthonyl said:


> Glad I took my Zx back the next day for a full refund. Won't be going that route again in a hurry.



Hi again.
One day, you say?


----------



## plath

cdsa35000 said:


> Did you connect the speakers to the SBZ Speakerouts Front L/R: [}-1.
> From top the 3rd jack output:


 Quote: 





evshrug said:


> @plath,
> Like glenclaymore and cdsa were getting at, you ideally would want your headphones plugged into the headphone jack, speakers in the left/right front speaker jacks (pointed out in cdsa's picture and the user manual), and subwoofer in the center/subwoofer jack next to that. That way, you shouldn't have to re-wire anything, just flick settings from headphones to speakers. It could be the card, if you need to contact Creative I posted a link to contact their support team (not the forums) just a few pages back in this thread.


 

  
 Cheers guys!


----------



## anthonyl

evshrug said:


> Hi again.
> One day, you say?


 
 I bought the Zx to replace (what I thought) was my ageing Titanium Fatal1ty Pro.... thinking it would power my new K612Pro's.... Well even at 100% volume the (Headphone amp) was still giving me a very soft volume.
  
 Apart from that, the sound quality coming from the card was no match for the quality coming from the Fatal1ty...verified by several friends whom I called over for a "blind test"... they all verified that the Titanium sounded better.
  
 Some people said that the card was faulty...i think not.


----------



## Evshrug

anthonyl said:


> I bought the Zx to replace (what I thought) was my ageing Titanium Fatal1ty Pro.... thinking it would power my new K612Pro's.... Well even at 100% volume the (Headphone amp) was still giving me a very soft volume.
> 
> Apart from that, the sound quality coming from the card was no match for the quality coming from the Fatal1ty...verified by several friends whom I called over for a "blind test"... they all verified that the Titanium sounded better.
> 
> Some people said that the card was faulty...i think not.




:rolleyes:
At least now you say "think." but you still don't seem open-minded to the efforts of the Head-Fi community of people who suggested help, and you ARE still pushing your weak vendetta to imply that the Zx is a junk product. Your vendetta is a wasting your time, can you please move on and start a topic we can share in as a community?

For example, how is that Presonus amp working out for you? I've never heard of that brand before! I DID use an external amp plugged into the headphone jack of my SB Z and Omni, though I had plenty of volume, the higher quality amp (a DIY tube amp I had someone in Lithuania kindly build for me) helped the sound be more robust, also smoothed out some sounds which were unnecessarily harsh. I paid more for the amp than I did for the sound card, but the improvement was noticable and very nice!

I got to talk to Howard from the EBay store Fred_Fred_2004, he's an amp maker (in Austrailia!) whom I respect and has had a few of his products appear with warm reviews here on Head-Fi. I've always wanted to try his larger desktop tube amp, and Howard was very nice to answer my tech questions on his ebay listing. I have no idea how it would compare to the Presonus you have now, but as a different type of technology, it might be interesting for you (as it was for me and my AKGs) to hear the complimentary sound of a tube amp.


----------



## skyhakuu

Hi.
 I have AKG Q701 and
 zxr on my desktop
 and fiio e09k on my notebook.
  
  
 The amp on fiio e09k its the very same on the zxr ? or if i plug the fiio on the zxr i get better results ?
 I dont know if the amp on zxr or fiio take 100% of the potential of my 701.
  
 thanks !


----------



## Evshrug

The two cards have (I believe) the same OpAmp chip, but the rest of the amp design is quite different. You're better situated to compare the sound of the Q701 plugged into the E09k or ZxR than I am, I'd be curious for your observations!


----------



## skyhakuu

Hmm.
 The sound on Fiio E09k its a litle more potent !  For music its a little more enjoyable.
 On ZXR with high Gain its OK its a good sound, but give that sensation of the 701 not working 100% of what he can do.
 But the sad part is that the fiio pluged on the zxr, we cant use SBX features, we can enable, but the sound gets diferent than pluged on the headphone plug.
  
 I think its more or less like this the sensation.
  
 Q701 + Zxr high gain = 80% of potential used
  
 Q701 + FiioE09k = 90-95% of the potential used on Q701.
  
  
 Sorry the bad english =D


----------



## cdsa35000

skyhakuu said:


> Hmm.
> The sound on Fiio E09k its a litle more potent !  For music its a little more enjoyable.
> On ZXR with high Gain its OK its a good sound, but give that sensation of the 701 not working 100% of what he can do.
> But the sad part is that the fiio pluged on the zxr, we cant use SBX features, we can enable, but the sound gets diferent than pluged on the headphone plug.
> ...



You can get SBX, just connect FiioE09k to ZXR headphone output and eventually set ZXR to Low Gain, just test it which best.


----------



## paulguru

skyhakuu said:


> Hmm.
> The sound on Fiio E09k its a litle more potent !  For music its a little more enjoyable.
> On ZXR with high Gain its OK its a good sound, but give that sensation of the 701 not working 100% of what he can do.
> But the sad part is that the fiio pluged on the zxr, we cant use SBX features, we can enable, but the sound gets diferent than pluged on the headphone plug.
> ...


 
 ZXR with high gain setting not use the potential of the AKG ??? Can you explain better ?
 AKG 701 is 64ohm, the sound blaster offers around 22ohm in output ( great also for 170-180ohm HP ).
  
 AKG need more gain or only easyer to drive with E9 ?


----------



## skyhakuu

cdsa35000 said:


> You can get SBX, just connect FiioE09k to ZXR headphone output and eventually set ZXR to Low Gain, just test it which best.


 
 not good, double amp the sound get distorcion wen u tune UP de knob !
 Even with the zxr on low gain and fiio on high gain, if i put both on low gain, the sound get very shabby and suk.
  


paulguru said:


> ZXR with high gain setting not use the potential of the AKG ??? Can you explain better ?
> AKG 701 is 64ohm, the sound blaster offers around 22ohm in output ( great also for 170-180ohm HP ).
> 
> AKG need more gain or only easyer to drive with E9 ?


 
 yeah the volume on zxr its very OK, but with fiio e09k the sound fell better, bass more present, more warm and rich, but no SBX =(,  i am a bit disapointed, thinkin in sell the 701 and fiio09k and get a more easy phone like HD598 that zxr fully drive easy.


----------



## cdsa35000

skyhakuu said:


> not good, double amp the sound get distorcion wen u tune UP de knob !
> Even with the zxr on low gain and fiio on high gain, if i put both on low gain, the sound get very shabby and suk.
> 
> yeah the volume on zxr its very OK, but with fiio e09k the sound fell better, [COLOR=333333]bass [/COLOR]more present, more warm and rich, but no SBX =(,  i am a bit disapointed, thinkin in sell the 701 and fiio09k and get a more easy phone like HD598 that zxr fully drive easy.



ZXR control panel must be set as Headphone output.
And what happens if both are set to High gain?

Use windows volume control to adjust?


----------



## paulguru

skyhakuu said:


> yeah the volume on zxr its very OK, but with fiio e09k the sound fell better, bass more present, more warm and rich, but no SBX =(,  i am a bit disapointed, thinkin in sell the 701 and fiio09k and get a more easy phone like HD598 that zxr fully drive easy.


 
 The difference between two is so noticeable ?


----------



## Hypophyse

Hello everyone, i own an AKG K712 with a soundblaster Z and I'm quite disappointed about the sound quality that I can get with it. The good point is the sound that I can get with my Logitech Z5500 with 3.5 jack connection but I'm definitely thinking about investing in a more expensive sound card. Do you think that the Asus Essence STX II 7.1 would be a good choice for both my headphone and the Z5500 or should I keep my Soundblaster Z? 
  
 Thanks in avance for your help!


----------



## paulguru

hypophyse said:


> Hello everyone, i own an AKG K712 with a soundblaster Z and I'm quite disappointed about the sound quality that I can get with it.


 
 why


----------



## Hypophyse

I find that the sound is quite distant and cold and I'm forced to put the sound volume at the minimum for protecting my ears.


----------



## bcschmerker4

hypophyse said:


> Hello everyone, i own an AKG K712 with a soundblaster Z and I'm quite disappointed about the sound quality that I can get with it. The good point is the sound that I can get with my Logitech Z5500 with 3.5 jack connection but I'm definitely thinking about investing in a more expensive sound card. Do you think that the Asus Essence STX II 7.1 would be a good choice for both my headphone and the Z5500 or should I keep my Soundblaster Z?
> 
> Thanks in avance for your help!


 

 That depends on the operating system and the hookup harness.  The Asus® XONAR® Essence™ STX II™ 7.1 two-card package, which is supported by multiple operating systems (for instance, the Advanced LinUX Sound Architecture Project has a Driver snd-virtuoso in Releases 1.0.26-up) uses multiple RCA jacks for analog output:  The STX II handles Front L-R; the H6 daughtercard, Side- and Rear-L/R, Front Center, and Subwoofer.  The Creative Laboratories® SB1502 and SB1506, which are to my knowledge only supported in Microsoft® Windows® 6-up, use multiple 3.5mm jacks for analog output, mostly four-conductor jacks signal-grounded on the second ring.  Be advised that the STX II, like my own STX, has specific software requirements for switching between the line-level analog outputs and the internal Texas Instruments® TP6120A2 headphone amplifier (6.3mm stereo jack).
  
 In Windows 6-up, the Maxed Tech® UNi™ XONAR® Audio Software™ Releases 1.50-up (current as of 18 January 2015:  Release 1.75, which packs C-Media® CMI-8788 Driver 8.18.03.1822) provide, as an alternative to the Asus® XONAR® Audio Center™, the C-Media® Audio Center DLL accessible from a Taskbar icon.


----------



## skyhakuu

cdsa35000 said:


> ZXR control panel must be set as Headphone output.
> And what happens if both are set to High gain?
> 
> Use windows volume control to adjust?


 
 yeah i know.
 if i put both on low gain, i got no distorcion, but the sound get sukz with low gain, very no life on bass etc,   Q701 need high gain to get some life and sound good.
 But if i put 1 low 1 high or 2 high and headphone output i get  the SBX on but the sound get distorcion.
  


paulguru said:


> The difference between two is so noticeable ?


 
 I dont think worth the R$ extra for the Fiio, but yes its noticiable better !
 I think shciit magni or O2 will give better results, But again, NO SBX sooo....  very bad =/


----------



## cdsa35000

skyhakuu said:


> yeah i know.
> if i put both on low gain, i got no distorcion, but the sound get sukz with low gain, very no life on bass etc,   Q701 need high gain to get some life and sound good.
> But if i put 1 low 1 high or 2 high and headphone output i get  the SBX on but the sound get distorcion.
> 
> ...



What kind of distortion? like scratching audio or clippings because of high volume input to FiiO*?
What happens if the ZXR windows volume is lowered? 

Isn't it normal SBX processing distortion? If SBX=OFF is no distortion and set SBX=10% is no or min. distortion then it's* normal SBX surround processing distortion*, any higher it will sound more like AM mono radio!
http://www.head-fi.org/t/748785/dolby-home-threater-v4-7-1-vs-sbx-pro-5-1

Probably best is ZXR=LOW Gain (*use ZXR windows volume to adjust) and FiiO= High Gain.


----------



## skyhakuu

cdsa35000 said:


> What kind of distortion? like scratching audio or clippings because of high volume input to FiiO*?
> What happens if the ZXR windows volume is lowered?
> 
> Isn't it normal SBX processing distortion? If SBX=OFF is no distortion and set SBX=10% is no or min. distortion then it's* normal SBX surround processing distortion*, any higher it will sound more like AM mono radio!
> ...


 
  
 No sbx dont give me distorcion.
  
 amp+amp give.
  
 its like the audio get deformed, weird, not clean.
 even config the windows bar.
 if i put fiio on headphone entry, both with low gain the sound get poor, on the headphone plug+ fiio any high gain will distorce the sound.
  
 Fiio only fell better than zxr amp on stereo plug, using him only to be the amp.
 for music its perfect.
 but for games we lose the 5.1 simulation effect on headphones.
 So i dont recomend to use an external amp for games that use 5.1, just for music its nice and an upgrade for shure.!
 its best to choose a headphone easy to drive, for combo with zxr, like HD 598 or fidelio X1.
 AKG 700x or any other hungry for power headphones will not be perfect utilized by zxr only, Its not BAD !!! but u not gona feel your headphone running 100%


----------



## cdsa35000

skyhakuu said:


> No sbx dont give me distorcion.
> 
> amp+amp give.
> 
> ...



Strange I use with Recon3Dusb amp+amp without any problems and many people doing double amping without problems.

*Did you disconnect the USB cable from FiiO? thats could give groundloop noise!*

Did you try connect FiiO to ZXR Line-out 1? Test with ZXR setting headphone/speakers and SBX which gives better sound!


----------



## Evshrug

I used my Recon3D USB, Z, and Omni with a desktop tube amp, made my Q701 and subsequent headphones sound much more lively and authoritative. Bass was more distinct, Mids were more liquid, treble was also more liquid and less fatiguing. Soundstage perception improved too, better separation of what layer of depth something was happening. Now, I own the X7, which has an amp with the same electrical current output as the ZxR and FiiO E09k, but the output impedance is lower (helps some headphones), and with that much current and low distortion I just use my headphones plugged straight into the X7. A little bit less liquid than I'm used to with the tube amp, but closer to the middle line between dry/liquid, has basically the same benefits as adding the discrete tube amp before.

Double-amping as been part of audio systems for decades, for example in high-end discrete-component speaker setups, you'll often find a pre-amp to control volume and a power amp after that. Having amps with low distortion on their own is key, but a lot of amps do well at budget prices.


----------



## Evshrug

bigbeard said:


> i know this is a bit off-topic, but a lot of you here know your stuff.
> 
> my question is, does the windows speaker configuration for 5.1 or stereo have any effect on sound that goes through optical out for to my Dac/Amp?
> 
> ...




I guess I'd say that whether you process the signal or not, it's stereo either way? Unless you checked the box for Dolby Digital Live output encoding. I could spend a month re-writing a user guide or changing the UI, if it was my job 

Stillhart has a cool method where his music player is set to output ASIO and bypass the SBX suite, so he can "leave" on the processing settings but music is played straight. I use iTunes (been using it for a long time, when the four options were ripping CDs manually, downloading illegally, or a subscription service where you have to keep paying to "rent" music, or iTunes) and a Sound Blaster X7, so I either switch on stereo-direct, or select my "music" preset.


----------



## Stillhart

evshrug said:


> I guess I'd say that whether you process the signal or not, it's stereo either way? Unless you checked the box for Dolby Digital Live output encoding. I could spend a month re-writing a user guide or changing the UI, if it was my job
> 
> @Stillhart has a cool method where his music player is set to output ASIO and bypass the SBX suite, so he can "leave" on the processing settings but music is played straight. I use iTunes (been using it for a long time, when the four options were ripping CDs manually, downloading illegally, or a subscription service where you have to keep paying to "rent" music, or iTunes) and a Sound Blaster X7, so I either switch on stereo-direct, or select my "music" preset.


 
  
 I use WASPI because I couldn't get the ASIO drivers working right, but it's the same idea.  Any time I play music from my music player, it bypasses all DSP from the sound card, including volume control.  That way, I can keep surround on all the time and don't really have to worry about remembering to turn it on or off.


----------



## rudyae86

So I chatted with customer service at Creative and I was told that my Sound Blaster Z is the same as the rest, that no changes were made in its entirety.
  
 My Sound Blaster Z is good. I guess...lol
  
 He said that the sound level each of use with out Sound Blaster Z is subjective, which I do believe is the case, some of us need a higher volume to listen better, could be going deaf, or other things.
  
 I hear no distortions either way. I just have to raise it up to 70% to 75%, which to me sounds good as it is, a bit loud....but my ears can handle it I think lol.
  
 I used a sound meter on my LG G2 to measure the dB and I get avarage 75 to 80dB with low 35 and peaks of 90dB...this is just an estimate since its not accurate completely, but gives me a general idea what I hear at 75% volume.
  
 Also, like some have said, low impedance high or high impedance headphones will give you different results as well.
  
 I guess Ill be keeping it for a while now.............
  
 That is until I get the X7 later this yearh 
  
 Just wanted to put out this info out there.....and Im loving my K7XX <3


----------



## Evshrug

^interesting.
The SPL meter would fascinate me... I also hope your ears can handle it!

There was something on Etymotic about safe listening levels before hearing damage (Etymotic made hearing aids before making some of the earliest IEMs), I'll look for it and share if I find it.

Edit: similar article from Inner Fidelity:
http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/ultimate-headphone-guide-articles-headphones-and-hearing-safety


----------



## rudyae86

evshrug said:


> ^interesting.
> The SPL meter would fascinate me... I also hope your ears can handle it!
> 
> There was something on Etymotic about safe listening levels before hearing damage (Etymotic made hearing aids before making some of the earliest IEMs), I'll look for it and share if I find it.
> ...




There is also a thread in here about this as well. When I get on my PC I'll post the link.

Etymotic makes some good ear protection. I wish I knew about them when I headed out to concerts and whatnot lol. But with their ear plugs, you can still hear the music but without damaging the ears.

Coffee also contributes to hearing loss along with other factors of which I don't remember right now. But thanks for the additional info.


----------



## Evshrug

Coffee!?!?


----------



## rudyae86

evshrug said:


> Coffee!?!?




Oh no Ev....you must love coffee so much that you would pass out with out it lol


----------



## razorpakk

After realizing that I can't stand the hassle of having an external dac I'll be upgrading from ZX to ZXR.
 I'll make some tests with the amp and my Fiio E12A via RCA>Jack. Who knows, maybe I'll get rid of the fiio as well.


----------



## rudyae86

http://www.head-fi.org/t/723464/hearing-safety-and-ear-health-thread-a-diary-of-a-ear-health-noob
  
 Here is the link for those interested about hearing at safe levels and all the bad stuff you should avoid.


----------



## razorpakk

Quick question (abouit ZXR): better to connect RCA>Fiio E12A>Headphones, or Headphone out>Fiio E12A>Headphones ?
  
 P.S. Talking about sound quality for music, not interested in SBX.


----------



## ChristianM

Hi everyone, I don't know if it's only me or someone also have experienced this, my Sound Blaster Z sound fantastic with Windows 7 than Windows 10 & 8.1. there is no decent bass, mids and treble. everything is just so harsh, very difficult to listen to music, it's just crap. I tried all the settings in iTunes 12, SBZ EQ etc. but........move back to Windows 7 just because of that crap sound, otherwise I love Windows 10. I only have over-ear headphones.


----------



## razorpakk

Did you try with Foobar and Wasapi?


----------



## oldmate

I have the Zx and every time I turn the volume up or down on the ACM Volume Knob I get static/noise. It's really starting to piss me off. Anybody else here have this issue and some sort of fix other than bypassing  it altogether??
  
 Cheers.


----------



## rudyae86

oldmate said:


> I have the Zx and every time I turn the volume up or down on the ACM Volume Knob I get static/noise. It's really starting to piss me off. Anybody else here have this issue and some sort of fix other than bypassing  it altogether??
> 
> Cheers.


 
 Ive seen this problem on amazon reviews. But to be honest, do you really need it? I know it makes things easier with the volume knob, kind of wish i had it but......is it possible for you to not use it at all? I just have the regular SB Z....


----------



## oldmate

rudyae86 said:


> Ive seen this problem on amazon reviews. But to be honest, do you really need it? I know it makes things easier with the volume knob, kind of wish i had it but......is it possible for you to not use it at all? I just have the regular SB Z....


 
 Thanks for your reply.
  
 The volume pot is indeed handy but me thinks this sound card is a over priced piece of crap and perhaps I'm better off a desktop dac/amp.
  
 My custom headphone cable is not long enough to plug into the back of the sound card although the stock cable that came with it is so I should just see how it goes this way. The volume pot was the main reason I went this way. Will give it a shot. Makes the ACM device obsolete and a pricey extra that I'm not going to use though. I may be able to offload it on eBay but then I'm just passing the issue onto somebody else.
  
 I'm about to upgrade my amp for my dap so I'm thinking that using my old iBasso D6 is the go. I know it won't be able to use those 3d effects for gaming but I really don't use them anyway.
  
 Anybody else with this issue and a possible fix ie repair or is this a trait of the pot on this ACM. Very disappointing considering the price.


----------



## ChristianM

I have tried following media players:
  
 iTunes (my fav and currently using it)
 Foobar
 JRiver
 AIMP
 JetAudio
 Cheery Player
 MusicBee
 MediaMonkey
  
 few more player which have good ratings at Download.com and softpedia but none worked well in Windows 10 (any build)


----------



## flomofo

Its probably just the friction introduced by a simple design? Like turning the plugs while connected to your cans etc.
  
 So it might not affect SQ after it is set, although any extra connection you add...
  
 Mine does the same thing but it is useful and its not a pricey high end setup I run so I doubt it does much to change the sound.


----------



## itsDanny

I posted something here: http://www.head-fi.org/t/753523/sound-card-audio-too-loud-can-it-also-influence-sound-quality
 and I was just wondering what volume (%) do you guys have set in the Sound Blaster Control Panel?
  
 Cheers


----------



## razorpakk

Do I have to download something to use Jriver in Asio mode with the ZXR?
 Right now it doesn't work, it keeps buffering. No issues with Asio4All and Wasapi.


----------



## transcendent12

recently put the Zx in...sounds great and all but i'm experiencing one bug quite frequently where it keeps switching AUTOMATICALLY and randomly between headphone/speaker output! Has anyone else experienced this or anyway to stop it/RMA? Running windows 7


----------



## no00wa

Just bought myself an ZxR after some consideration (after not having a sound card at all and now wanting to go for the best) for mostly a new headset and my Logitech z-5500 speakers. Coming from a Sennheiser 363D + USB soundcard, which i absolutely LOVED, i wanted to try if i could get some even better sound with the ZxR and a Sennheiser g4me Zero.
  
 Now trying this headset out for a day or two, connected directly to the sound card without ACM, and i'm not as impressed as i immediately was with the 363d's so far. The 363d's sounded simply amazing when i put the headset on for the first time, now using a ZxR and the g4me zero the sound is defintely pretty good but i'm hoping it can be quite a bit better.
  
 Does anyone happen to know what settings in the control panel (equalizer and the sorts) would best match the sound settings of a 363d with the USB card? Im not sure at the moment if the ZxR + headset just need some time to get loose or if the g4me one really would sound that much different, being the "succesor"of the 363ds without sound card.
  
 I would really like to keep these as i hope there is almost no difference between the one's and the zero when being driven properly.


----------



## germanium

no00wa said:


> Just bought myself an ZxR after some consideration (after not having a sound card at all and now wanting to go for the best) for mostly a new headset and my Logitech z-5500 speakers. Coming from a Sennheiser 363D + USB soundcard, which i absolutely LOVED, i wanted to try if i could get some even better sound with the ZxR and a Sennheiser g4me Zero.
> 
> Now trying this headset out for a day or two, connected directly to the sound card without ACM, and i'm not as impressed as i immediately was with the 363d's so far. The 363d's sounded simply amazing when i put the headset on for the first time, now using a ZxR and the g4me zero the sound is defintely pretty good but i'm hoping it can be quite a bit better.
> 
> ...


 

  While the ZXR is definitely a step up in quality compared to on board audio you need to upgrade your speaker to really be able to appreciate what this card is capable of.
  
 The headphone amp though not the best sounding out of the box can be drastically improved with the mods that I have done. Excess sharpness reduced & detail radically improved.
  
 Here is my mod thread http://www.head-fi.org/t/705284/germaniums-sound-blaster-zxr-mod-thread


----------



## xxToranachxx

Hello everyone, i own an AKG K712 with a soundblaster Z and I'm quite disappointed about the sound quality that I can get with it. The good point is the sound that I can get with my Logitech Z5500 with 3.5 jack connection but I'm definitely thinking about investing in a more expensive sound card. Do you think that the Asus Essence STX II 7.1 would be a good choice for both my headphone and the Z5500 or should I keep my Soundblaster Z? 
  
 Thanks in avance for your help!
  
 I have also noticed that the sound from the Soundblaster Z headphone jack is rather Anemic... I have the Z going out to a Denon 1705 receiver via Toslink. When I plug my cans directly into the Soundblaster it sounds like crap compared to just plugging them into the Denon.  I know the SNR is way better directly from the card but to my ears all of my headphones(sennhieser Momentums, Bose QC2, Sennheiser Cx-300, Beats in ear- free btw, wouldnt pay for beats) sound way way better through the receiver.  A friend of mine also got the ZX and hated the sound from the jack and the little module that comes with it.  Seems to be common.


----------



## xxToranachxx

Oops, forgot to put the top part of my last post in a quote. My bad everyone.


----------



## xxToranachxx

no00wa said:


> Just bought myself an ZxR after some consideration (after not having a sound card at all and now wanting to go for the best) for mostly a new headset and my Logitech z-5500 speakers. Coming from a Sennheiser 363D + USB soundcard, which i absolutely LOVED, i wanted to try if i could get some even better sound with the ZxR and a Sennheiser g4me Zero.
> 
> Now trying this headset out for a day or two, connected directly to the sound card without ACM, and i'm not as impressed as i immediately was with the 363d's so far. The 363d's sounded simply amazing when i put the headset on for the first time, now using a ZxR and the g4me zero the sound is defintely pretty good but i'm hoping it can be quite a bit better.
> 
> ...


 
 No00wa, a good friend of mine has the G4me Zero and had a one.  A warning with both of them.  There is very little bass with these.  He also has a Schiit Magni 2 with this setup and still no bass.  I think he is going to try and sell them.  Anyway, I though this might help. Good luck!


----------



## yoster

Hi all - first post here!
  
 I'll cut right to the chase.  I have an MSI Gaming motherboard with the built in soundblaster audo w/integrated 600ohm headphone amp.  While it was better than some other integrated units I've used, it lacked two major things: 1) an integrated EQ and 2) the headphone amp, despite being rated for 600ohm, just didn't cut the cheese (and I'm only pushing Sennheiser Momemtum's over-hear.)  The integrated amp just couldn't drive them hard enough - when turned up and listening to highly dynamic tracks (Dream Theater tracks for instance) it sounded like someone was sitting there turning the volume knob up and down, up and down.  I attributed this to either a week internal amp or the on-board caps were just being pushed too hard - not enough power on-tap.  In the short-term, I ran the stereo-out to RCA-in in my home receiver, and used my receiver as a headphone amp.  Took care of that strange sensation, but the EQ was still all off.
  
 Through reading various forum posts, I settled on the ZxR.  First impressions, the default 'flat' curve lacked the low-end bigtime.  Thankfully, the EQ fixed that.  
  
 Cranking up the music however (headphones in 32/300 mode in the software and plugged directly into the ZxR) - I got the somewhat similar, but also different sensation as the onboard audio.  Hard to describe but my headphones just couldn't keep up with the fast high-low transitions.  It's like when the hard notes hit (such as a hard bass drum) the card just runs out of steam.  It doesn't carry the OOMPH through the entire note.  Testing with my DT-770's revealed the same issues.
  
 Going from ZxR RCA-out to RCA-in on my receiver (with headphones plugged into receiver) converted the sound into pure awesome.  Just oozes good sound.  The notes hit hard and hold, just like I expect.  Now, if I don't feel like using my receiver, the 600ohm mode definitely helps the situation, but still doesn't solve it completely.
  
 I'd ultimately like to not rely on using my receiver.  So my question, and maybe germanium can answer this - will I be better served with a headphone amp upgrade, or a cap upgrade?  I read through your upgrade post but you upgraded the entire card/all channels - I am only interested in upgrading the headphone output side (my actual room speakers run through the receiver which has adequate caps within it - I keep the output volume on the ZxR low to not overdrive the built-in caps, and let the receiver boost from there.) 
  
 Appreciate any tips!
  
 [EDIT] - Ok rather than running through that ZxR rotary volume knob, I tried going straight in.  Ya.. sound is improved by quite a bit - the 'punch' is back.  Going to listen for a bit to see if completely resolved.
  
 [EDIT2] -- Ohh yeah baby, this is what I'm talking about.  That POT-style dial is going bye-bye.  I read online that the ZxR version was supposed to be better than the one that came with the Zx - Based on this I'd have to disagree - they both stink haha.  That in-line dial is robbing me of SQ.  Back in the box that piece goes!!  I don't even need to use 600ohm mode anymore - normal mode is slammin'


----------



## norsende

Does anyone else have a super slow Control Panel? Like a minute or more to start it up from Minimize, then 10+ seconds for opening each tab the first time. After opening everything once it gets quicker for X amount of time. Sorry if this has been asked but I didn't find anything with Google other than to reinstall, which didn't fix it.


----------



## yoster

I have zero delay within the software.


----------



## necropimp

stillhart said:


> I use WASPI because I couldn't get the ASIO drivers working right, but it's the same idea.  Any time I play music from my music player, it bypasses all DSP from the sound card, including volume control.  That way, I can keep surround on all the time and don't really have to worry about remembering to turn it on or off.




weird foobar using wasapi does not bypass the DSP at all here...


----------



## Stillhart

necropimp said:


> weird foobar using wasapi does not bypass the DSP at all here...



Have to use exclusive mode.


----------



## necropimp

as i understand it foobar's wasapi plugin only uses exclusive mode... yet turning the sbx features on/off or adjusting the volume slider will affect the sound


----------



## xeizo

I use Xonar Essence ST on my main  "music"-rig, which is Linux based, I am very happy about how it sounds.
  
 But I got surprisingly good results for enjoying music from my gaming-rig using Soundblaster Z on Windows 8.1. Here's how I use it for the occasional music when sitting by the gaming box:
  
 1. I use the line output and an external amplifier.
 2. Turn of ALL effects in SBZ control panel.
 3. Choose Speakers and "Stereo Direct" in the SBZ control panel(bypasses the Sound Core 3D-chip).
 4. Choose 24-bit 192kHz in the Windows sound applet.
  
 This generally sounds good, but the Windows-mixer is not the best even at max resolution as above. One can use the ASIO plugin in Foobar2000 to get to ASIO instead, which bypasses the WIndows mixer. But what is even better, or at least more convenient, is to be able to stream from Spotify Premium using ASIO. Enter "Fidelify": 
  
 http://fidelify.net/ 
  
 This of course requires a Spotify Premium account, but the big thing about the Fidelify-client is that it supports ASIO(and WASAPI too). Using ASIO makes a noticeable difference, the resulting sound is more fluid and effortless than from the default Spotify client. Some say it makes 320kbps from Spotify sound better than FLAC from Tidal/Wimp does(because of getting rid of the Windows mixer = more destructive than FLAC vs 320kbps).
  
 Another cool thing about the Fidelify-client is that it supports VST-plugins, one can use in example professional vintage tube studio gear plugins like Voxengo Tube Amp(there are many similar plugins out there) to get the rig to sound a little warmer and more sparkly, like a vintage tube amplifier. This is what famous music producers do on their albums all the time, but some music may need some extra of it or it can be used to get more synergy from a certain rig which sounds slightly cold. There's an infinite territory for experimenting here.
  
 "Warming up" by the use of a VST-plug works the best if you have very analytical speakers or cans, it can make them sound that much warmer and more full bodied while not sharp at full throttle. In my case this works excellent with AKG K612 Pro and makes them sound almost as warm as what the Sennheiser HD600 does by default(as long as your external amp is powerful enough for the AKG:s).
  
 Anyway, Soundblaster Z can sound superb using Fidelify on Windows and using the cards line out. It do have the Cirrus Logic flagship DAC-chip, CS4398, which has great potential. One just have to disable all the Creative/Windows-fluff.  Maybe not the last word in resolution but in the end the sound is pleasing. Good enough that I don't feel any panic to switch over to my music rig when just enjoying music. And SBZ is still great when being used as a gaming card on a gaming rig, which it is intended to be.


----------



## Zen00

Hey guys, I just bought a Zx from the Amazon sell yesterday ($85), so I was wondering if there's a list of things to do to get the best out of the card that you can. Windows 7, i7-860 CPU, DT 770 PRO 80 Ohm impedance http://www.amazon.com/Beyerdynamic-770-PRO-250-ohms/dp/B0006NL5SM
  
 Need any other information? I already know that the volume control knob thingy is apparently a crappy thing you shouldn't use.


----------



## paulguru

ZXR have enphasized bass ? bass is controlled ? is possible fix it using equalizer ?


----------



## glow9

In another thread someone had mentioned he wasn't sure nor am I if this card can properly power my headphones. I assume they could as it says it can power 600 Ohms but in terms of power delivery that might mean squat. So can someone tell me how adequate 80mW is? I have Beyerdynamic DT 990 pro 250 Ohms can this thing power these headphones or higher end headphones?


----------



## norsende

glow9 said:


> In another thread someone had mentioned he wasn't sure nor am I if this card can properly power my headphones. I assume they could as it says it can power 600 Ohms but in terms of power delivery that might mean squat. So can someone tell me how adequate 80mW is? I have Beyerdynamic DT 990 pro 250 Ohms can this thing power these headphones or higher end headphones?


 

 I have the DT 990 Pro 250 Ohms, and SBZ has no problem powering those.


----------



## glow9

norsende said:


> I have the DT 990 Pro 250 Ohms, and SBZ has no problem powering those.


 

 I'm still learning, so I looked up the DT990's and I see 96dB/_mW_ is that what I am looking for in terms of mW for a soundcard/ amp? So my card puts out 80mW so does that mean it can push my headphones to 83% of what they could be? Or am I totally wrong?


----------



## haejuk

glow9 said:


> I'm still learning, so I looked up the DT990's and I see 96dB/_mW_ is that what I am looking for in terms of mW for a soundcard/ amp? So my card puts out 80mW so does that mean it can push my headphones to 83% of what they could be? Or am I totally wrong?


 
  
 This is not correct.  The figure 96dB/mW means that you get 96dB of volume out of a single mW.  After this doubling the power only gives you about 3dB more each time the power output is doubled.  This means you should get around ~112dB with full volume at 80 mW.  I have seen a lot of people say that it is ideal to be able to get to 120 dB because of some tracks that have a lot of volume changes (a 30dB change between quiet sections and loud sections), but the vast majority of the time we listen at 1mW or less.  This is how I understand it, so anyone feel free to correct me if I am wrong; which is entirely possible.


----------



## Anarion

I wonder if Creative will have properly working Windows 10 drivers when it launches...


----------



## NoOneLt

glow9 said:


> I'm still learning, so I looked up the DT990's and I see 96dB/_mW_ is that what I am looking for in terms of mW for a soundcard/ amp? So my card puts out 80mW so does that mean it can push my headphones to 83% of what they could be? Or am I totally wrong?



http://shure.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/2991/~/understanding-earphone-/-headphone-specifications


----------



## gmaister22

anarion said:


> I wonder if Creative will have properly working Windows 10 drivers when it launches...


 
 Why not to work?


----------



## Anarion

gmaister22 said:


> Why not to work?


Because they didn't have one when Windows 8 launched.



itsdanny said:


> I posted something here: http://www.head-fi.org/t/753523/sound-card-audio-too-loud-can-it-also-influence-sound-quality
> and I was just wondering what volume (%) do you guys have set in the Sound Blaster Control Panel?
> 
> Cheers



10% when using line out and ACM at ~66%. Headphone out is unusable loud and line out is just usable with ACM.


----------



## DrunkenTiger

How does the SoundBlaster Omni hold up today? Any similarly priced options that are newer/better?


----------



## Anarion

drunkentiger said:


> How does the SoundBlaster Omni hold up today? Any similarly priced options that are newer/better?


I guess it's basically external Recon3D so the DAC is nothing special.


----------



## PurpleAngel

drunkentiger said:


> How does the Sound Blaster Omni hold up today? Any similarly priced options that are newer/better?


 
  
 As a external sound card, I would assume it's just as good as any other external sound card, for it's price range.
 For a few dollars more you could get the FiiO E10K or Schiit Fulla (both are USB/DAC/amps), they do not come with any sound card features, but should at least be a little better audio quality wise, then the Omni.


----------



## rudyae86

Sound Blaster Omni = Sound Blaster Z
  
 Recon3D is below them.
  
 Both Omni and the Z can send SBX through optical out. If you plan on getting a seperated DAC and AMP, get a DAC with Opt. In. Many have reported to work well.


----------



## Anarion

rudyae86 said:


> Sound Blaster Omni = Sound Blaster Z
> 
> Recon3D is below them.
> 
> Both Omni and the Z can send SBX through optical out. If you plan on getting a seperated DAC and AMP, get a DAC with Opt. In. Many have reported to work well.


AFAIK Omni uses Sound Core3D's DAC (they claim 100dB SNR) in other words it's equal to Recon3D (they claim 102dB for Recon3D). It's not equal to Z DAC wise.


----------



## rudyae86

anarion said:


> AFAIK Omni uses Sound Core3D's DAC (they claim 100dB SNR) in other words it's equal to Recon3D (they claim 102dB for Recon3D). It's not equal to Z DAC wise.


 
 Numbers dont always specify or mean that they are alike. I have read somewhere that the Recon3D is inferior to the SB Z and Omni.
  
 Plus I think the Omni has a better Amp compared to the Recon3D.
  
 Can someone else verify some of this info?


----------



## Evshrug

anarion said:


> I guess it's basically external Recon3D so the DAC is nothing special.




I had both at the same time (and an SB Z for a little while), the Omni was much closer to the Z and clearly better than the Recon3D USB, plus the Omni has more output options (so, if you wanted, you could output to an external DAC + Amp solution, which I did for awhile with a Bifrost Uber and a tube amp). Stillhart had both an optical Modi and an Omni, side by side they performed very close, and had to spend like double the Omni's cost (or more?) on a different DAC to hear a noticable improvement.


----------



## cheeno50

Hey guys, what is the sweet spot for SBX Studio  Surround % setting? I hear some say 67% and some 33%. Is there anything wrong with going 25?


----------



## NoOneLt

You should try it yourself, higher % means more sounds will be mixed into 2 channels it can be messy, also result depend on game. I personally use 30% for BF4


----------



## genclaymore

cheeno50 said:


> Hey guys, what is the sweet spot for SBX Studio  Surround % setting? I hear some say 67% and some 33%. Is there anything wrong with going 25?


 

 depends on your ears, I use two different settings for FPS and 3rd person Games. I use 40% for FPS and 67% for 3rd person but like it was already mention different games react differently with the settings.


----------



## kkaky37t




----------



## cheeno50

hey guys is it just me or does this sound card sound much better with sbx studio disabled all together?  I swear its way more natural and alive without the studio.
  
 creative zxr*


----------



## kenammo

Since I only listen to two-channel lossless/hi-rez music files, I much prefer the sound with SBX completely disabled. Gamers and those watching video with surround sound may report a different audio experience.
  
 In fact, when I installed mine out of the box all SBX settings were enabled by default. I thought the sound was horribly distorted, until I located the SBX button and turned it off. After that, musical bliss for me. LOL.


----------



## cheeno50

It wasn't distorted to me. But the sbx studio would emphasize sounds that should have been in the background (especially surround feature) . This would would make most of my music very fatiguing.
  
 It made my movies sound weird too.
  
  
 basically, with sbx off everything sounds way more natural and real


----------



## sabaw

Hey guys,
  
 Planning on buying either a Z or ZxR since i wanna use this for gaming.
 Im currently using fidelio X1s and a x-fi xtremegamer.
 Which of the 2 would your recommend? Would the ZxR be overkill for these "midfi" headphones?
  
 cheers!


----------



## NoOneLt

sabaw said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> Planning on buying either a Z or ZxR since i wanna use this for gaming.
> Im currently using fidelio X1s and a x-fi xtremegamer.
> ...


 
 X1 very well rated headphones, and will definately benefit from ZxR. In case you will use it only for gaming Z would be fine, ZxR gives more for music lovers.


----------



## rudyae86

honestly, the SB Z and ZxR have an output impedance of about 10ohm which will result in a sound signature change, especially for the X1 that has that good nice low end. Im still a noob at this but alot of people do let you know about this sort of thing in which the SBZ and ZxR are good with higher impedance headphone and its the opposite with lower impedance headphones.
  
 Research more buddy. Its not just about the 600ohm amp that it has but also about the amount of current it gives as well.


----------



## NoOneLt

rudyae86 said:


> honestly, the SB Z and ZxR have an output impedance of about 10ohm which will result in a sound signature change, especially for the X1 that has that good nice low end. Im still a noob at this but alot of people do let you know about this sort of thing in which the SBZ and ZxR are good with higher impedance headphone and its the opposite with lower impedance headphones.
> 
> Research more buddy. Its not just about the 600ohm amp that it has but also about the amount of current it gives as well.


 
 Good point here, never thought of this because it not a big deal for 250Ohm.
  
 X1 is only 30 Ohm, and 1/8 rule says: 
  
 ("*THE 1/8th RULE: *To minimize all three of the above problems, it’s only necessary to keep the output impedance less than 1/8th the headphone impedance. Or, put another way, just divide the headphone impedance by 8 to get the maximum output impedance without potential audible degradation.")
  
 So if keep it simple as that you better look for other option amping your X1 as Z is 22 and ZxR has 10 ohms.
  
 UPD: On the other hand i used ZxR with 42 Ohm ATH-A900x, not very long but while using them i didn't noticed any signature problems like "boominess"... Of course i'am a very very noob in head-fi.. but in this case they didn't sounded "wrong" to my ears.


----------



## sabaw

Ive been looking at other things like dacs and amps but they present me with a problem
 Theyre usually too expensive or will prevent me from using positional audio since i like that a lot in gaming.


----------



## genclaymore

If they have optical or coaxial input they wont prevent you from using positional audio since all you would need to do is plug in your existing sound blaster card optical, asus xonar Optical or your onboard audio if it supports X-FI MB3 or Cinema 2 into the units. Xonar and Z series cards has the option to route the gaming DSP's directly to the optical also with a setting in their panel which means you can send dolby headphone,SBX surround and CMSS3D Headphone to external dacs.
  
 There is a option when using the USB inputs which is using Razer surround software which works with external dac's. Which works decent enough, but of course Xonar and creative options i find do a better job, it just the razer software is free.
  
 There are different ones in all price ranges like a Fiio E10K  that i seen for $75 as well the one that monoprice sells for $83.  Then the Aune T1 MK2 which is $149ish as well  Audio-GD NFB15 which is $230 and both are all in one units.
  
 Schiit Modi 2 uber  dac has both Coaxial/optical units for $149 and $99 for just USB with the magni 2 amp being $99. of course there are more out there. You don't have to spend a whole lot of money for them as there are options.


----------



## cheeno50

IS the sbx studio stuff purely software enhancement or does it actually use the sound card in some way?


----------



## sabaw

I think it's software embedded into the drivers. 

I've tried the razer vs the cmss in the xtremegamer. I find the razed gives better positional but muffles the sound. The cmss gives a cleaner, almost tinny, sound but what's behind you sounds like it's behind and over the back of your head vs the razers where it seems it's a few or several hundred feet behind you, but again, muffled sound


----------



## genclaymore

The thing is if you don't config Dolby Headphone,CMSS3D Headphone and SBX surround correctly then they wont work right. As in Setting the Audio settings to 5.1 or 7.1 in windows and games and then setting the sound card to output Headphones. If you keep it on stereo instead then all 3 wont work that well or that good. Its important to make sure you config it so it works.  When configured correctly I find SBX surround to do a better job for me then CMSS3D Headphone. Where CMSS3D Headphone has some kind of bass added in that messes up the effect. While SBX surround doesn't.
  
 I didn't like razer surround that much but it worked for something to use for free.


----------



## Smrc42

hi guys,
  
 Really need some advise and help here. I am very new to these and i really need some advise from someone.
  
 I am currently using a Creative Sound Blaster ZX with my wonder HD595. Wanted to upgrade my Headphone to HD800. Kinda worried that the SB Zx is not good enough for the HD800.
  
 Do i need any AMP/DAC for HD800 even if i am using the SB Zx?
  
 Please kindly advise me. I am really lost after i read related info for SB Zx and HD800.


----------



## NoOneLt

smrc42 said:


> Do i need any AMP/DAC for HD800 even if i am using the SB Zx?
> 
> Please kindly advise me. I am really lost after i read related info for SB Zx and HD800.


 
 Hmm.. HD800 is in other league, and when you buy 1000USD cans i think you should carefully check what other components best pairs with it to get what you expect for this price. And if you aim mostly on gaming there is cheaper options for that. 
  
 I would definitely vote for high end dac + amp to pair with HD800.


----------



## Smrc42

noonelt said:


> Hmm.. HD800 is in other league, and when you buy 1000USD cans i think you should carefully check what other components best pairs with it to get what you expect for this price. And if you aim mostly on gaming there is cheaper options for that.
> 
> I would definitely vote for high end dac + amp to pair with HD800.




Thanks for the advise. I understand that it will be the best if I got some hardcore DAC /AMP to pair with it but it's just a short-term resolution using just my Sb zx with the headphone. Trying to learn more about dac /amp before I choose which one I should get. It's just so many things to look into. Getting confuse after reading more and more of different tread and post.


----------



## NoOneLt

It will work fine with Zx, but don,t expect much, i couldn't find full spec for Zx but by it is up to 600 ohm so will have some power for 300 ohm Hp.. And don't use volume knob, GL!


----------



## Smrc42

noonelt said:


> It will work fine with Zx, but don,t expect much, i couldn't find full spec for Zx but by it is up to 600 ohm so will have some power for 300 ohm Hp.. And don't use volume knob, GL!



Haha thanks for the GL. Now I am worried!


----------



## germanium

Been trying the SBX pro studio surround feature of the card on my DVD-Audios recordings with everything set for surround except the final output from my ZXR & it seems to work very well surround material. I tried it also with stereo recordings as well but did not like the extreme placements of the instruments given that the sound is for the most part supposed to stay in front of you with stereo. Yes there are some recordings that are recorded in stereo that are meant to have surround like effects but those already have the effect built into the recording either through electronic processing or through the use of Blumlien microphone techniques. With surround recordings such as most DVD-Audio recording the result is convincing as these recordings are meant to surround you with sound.
  
 The positive comments relate to the use of stereo speakers, not headphones, not that the it makes headphones sound bad because it doesn't but just that it is not in any way convincing to me compared to it's effects with speakers.


----------



## NoOneLt

smrc42 said:


> Haha thanks for the GL. Now I am worried!


 
 Don't worry, it will have enough power to run HD800, though i still can not find exact power details @300 Ohm for Z only for ZxR... 
  
 BTW 3,5 mm adapter is not included with HD800, so you either need one to plug directly into Z or you will need to use knob (though knob could degrade sound).
  
 Another BTW, saw some pretty negative reviews of Hd800 here, and every second says it is very sensitive to quality amp


----------



## NoOneLt

Hi to all headfiers, have a question about ZxR + Beyer T90, have anyone used it together? Did you had opportunity to compare it to any other amp? I am not fully happy how it sounds in some situations, so trying to find a solution.


----------



## NCSUZoSo

I don't think I shared this in the thread yet and I think they give great info, direct from Creative.
  

  
  

  
  
  
 Here is my Op-Amp Setup


----------



## CyberAthlete

zen00 said:


> Hey guys, I just bought a Zx from the Amazon sell yesterday ($85), so I was wondering if there's a list of things to do to get the best out of the card that you can. Windows 7, i7-860 CPU, DT 770 PRO 80 Ohm impedance http://www.amazon.com/Beyerdynamic-770-PRO-250-ohms/dp/B0006NL5SM
> 
> Need any other information? I already know that the volume control knob thingy is apparently a crappy thing you shouldn't use.


 
  
  
 I used to own the Sound Blaster Z sound card and it stated that in order to use the Headphone Amp I had to plug in my headphones directly into the sound card. Not in the front of the PC headphone connection.

 I am pretty sure that the headphone amp for Zx is built into the Sound Card and not the ACM which is why people are having this change in sound and power. It's the same amp as the Z version so I wouldn't be surprised.
  
 I purchased the ZxR recently and it states in the manual that the ACM is where the amp is located. It is also a different amp vs the Z/Zx. So you have to connect the AMC to the sound card and plug in your headphones directly into the ACM. That should help.


----------



## germanium

cyberathlete said:


> I used to own the Sound Blaster Z sound card and it stated that in order to use the Headphone Amp I had to plug in my headphones directly into the sound card. Not in the front of the PC headphone connection.
> 
> I am pretty sure that the headphone amp for Zx is built into the Sound Card and not the ACM which is why people are having this change in sound and power. It's the same amp as the Z version so I wouldn't be surprised.
> 
> I purchased the ZxR recently and it states in the manual that the ACM is where the amp is located. It is also a different amp vs the Z/Zx. So you have to connect the AMC to the sound card and plug in your headphones directly into the ACM. That should help.


 
 The ZXR headphone amp is not in the ACM. The ACM is just a passive device with a passive volume control. The ZXR headphone amp is on the main card & is a Texas Instruments chip that was originally designed for DSL line use & modified to drive headphones. It is a current feedback design giving it huge bandwidth of over 10MHz. Creative's implementation results in a rather high output impedance of 40 ohms. Typical designs using this chip have an output impedance of just 10 ohms which is the recommended output impedance specified by Texas Instruments.


----------



## CyberAthlete

Straight from the manual:
  
*Connecting Audio Control Module*
 The Sound Blaster ZxR comes with an external ACM that incorporates a 600 ohm headphone amplifier,
 built-in microphone array and mic/headphone I/O connections and a volume control knob.
  
  
 So the manual is incorrect then?


----------



## germanium

Who ever wrote the manual is wrong. The headphone amp is the large chip close to outside edge of the card itself. It has the numbers 120A2 on it. Can't read the prefix from the picture I have but here is the link to the post with a picture of it.
  
http://www.head-fi.org/t/705284/lightbox/post/10467931/id/1086849
  
 Yes that is my mod thread so I do know.


----------



## sabaw

Hey guys would it be worth it to shell about 300 bucks on a z and a magni modi stack or just get a sound blaster zxr? I've decided to stretch the budget but in still on the fence if it's worth spending 120 more for the schiit stack. Would the quality be a lot better? Again about 90 percent games 5 movies 5 music. 

Thanks again!


----------



## NoOneLt

cyberathlete said:


> I used to own the Sound Blaster Z sound card and it stated that in order to use the Headphone Amp I had to plug in my headphones directly into the sound card. Not in the front of the PC headphone connection.
> 
> I am pretty sure that the headphone amp for Zx is built into the Sound Card and not the ACM which is why people are having this change in sound and power. It's the same amp as the Z version so I wouldn't be surprised.
> 
> I purchased the ZxR recently and it states in the manual that the ACM is where the amp is located. It is also a different amp vs the Z/Zx. So you have to connect the AMC to the sound card and plug in your headphones directly into the ACM. That should help.


 
 Amp located directly on ZxR and closer to the amp you connect better quality you have.


----------



## DrunkenTiger

cheeno50 said:


> hey guys is it just me or does this sound card sound much better with sbx studio disabled all together?  I swear its way more natural and alive without the studio.
> 
> creative zxr*


 
 Holy **** I just disabled it and music sounds insanely different, much more forward O.O and more bass? like I feel more physical **** going on near my ears on my Sennheiser G4ME ZEROs
 Music does sound "cleaner/smoother" with it on 67% though, sounds like it pulls back the music a tad and cleans it up, obviously that's not necessarily good if it's mucking with the sound.
 Can't decide what I prefer, my Sennheisers are super analytical, good for gaming, so listening w/o the SBX def lets me hear pretty much every sound in the track haha hmmm...
 ...why is audio so conflicting :\


----------



## ezone2kil

Yeah with my omni feeding my DAC and amp whenever I turn on the Pro Studio features my HD800 gets better bass but loses a lot of soundstage width..now I just turn it on for gaming and off for music.


----------



## paulguru

genclaymore said:


> depends on your ears, I use two different settings for FPS and 3rd person Games. I use 40% for FPS and 67% for 3rd person but like it was already mention different games react differently with the settings.


 
  


noonelt said:


> You should try it yourself, higher % means more sounds will be mixed into 2 channels it can be messy, also result depend on game. I personally use 30% for BF4


 
 Excuse me but what happen increasing the % of SBK Pro ?
 I thinked its have any side effects.
  
*Compared with BF4 internal surroud feature is better ? *
 Better BF4 with its internal surroud or BF4 setted in stereo + SBX enable ?


----------



## NoOneLt

paulguru said:


> Excuse me but what happen increasing the % of SBK Pro ?
> I thinked its have any side effects.
> 
> *Compared with BF4 internal surroud feature is better ? *
> Better BF4 with its internal surroud or BF4 setted in stereo + SBX enable ?


 
 With the larger % it tries to push more sounds from 5.1 to 2, it actually gives you simple visualization in the SBX studio what it is doing.
  
 It is all matter of preference and trials and fails... ATM i use SBX off  and BF4 set to Speaker type - headphones and Configuration - surround, i believe it turns on BF4 "internal surround".
  
 To use with SBX you should set BF to home theater + surround and then do all settings in SBX.
  
 Then just compare what sounds most precise and best to your ears.. It is different to everyone and also depends on your gear.


----------



## paulguru

u use internal BF4 surround  + SBX together ?
  
 i thinked sbk should be used with internal game audio setted to stereo, its not so ?


----------



## paulguru

noonelt said:


> With the larger % it tries to push more sounds from 5.1 to 2, it actually gives you simple visualization in the SBX studio what it is doing.
> 
> It is all matter of preference and trials and fails...* ATM i use SBX off  and BF4 set to Speaker type - headphones and Configuration - surround, i believe it turns on BF4 "internal surround".*
> 
> ...


 
 Sorry i dont understand this part.
  
 With BF4 what are u using ?
 What you means with "ATM" ?


----------



## NoOneLt

paulguru said:


> Sorry i dont understand this part.
> 
> With BF4 what are u using ?
> What you means with "ATM" ?


 
 ATM means "At the moment" 
  
 Is i wrote i use SBX surround off and BF4 internal surround on, as i understand it is turned one when in-game settings is:
*Speaker type - headphones*
*Configuration - surround*
 Then BF tries to playback surround in stereo mode.
  
 And to use SBX instead of internal surround it should be:
*Speaker type - home theater*
*Configuration - surround*
 Then BF4 try to output 5.1 and SBX downmix to 2.0
  
 At least i believe it is working like this, maybe i'am wrong.


----------



## paulguru

So to enable SBX is sufficient set "home theater" in game options and automatically run ?
 Ok but between the two configuration what have the clearest surround effect ?
  
 i thinked SBX can be enable only if you check the feature in Creative Menù.


----------



## NoOneLt

FULLY EDITED:
  
 If my findings is right then to use native BF4 surround:
*Speaker type - headphones or any other as it seems only an EQ option*
*Configuration - stereo*
*SBX surround Off in Creative CPanel*
  
  
 To use SBX surround:
*Speaker type - home theater or any other (i prefer home theater with SBX)*
*Configuration - surround*
*SBX surround On in Creative CPanel*
  
 You will have to decide yourself what sounds best.. 
  
*But i can be totally wrong *as i never googled how exactly BF4 manages multichannel sound.. *O**nly thing i know for sure* is if game audio engine supports true 5.1 then SBX surround takes it and dowmixes to 2 channels to sound as *virtual surround in your headphone or stereo speakers*. That is what it is meant for.
  
 Sorry for so many "maybe" i hope someone can put their experience here.


----------



## paulguru

OMG
  
 i expected a noticeable difference between SBX and in-gameSurround


----------



## NoOneLt

Man, reread my post above, it is edited. And about the sound you will need to decide yourself what is best


----------



## paulguru

Ok but from what u writed seems that the SBX improvement is not so noticeable.


----------



## NCSUZoSo

If you are just talking about stereo sound this is pretty simple.  You either like the virtual surround effect or you prefer stereo, it's not complicated.  Try it and pick.


----------



## germanium

paulguru said:


> Ok but from what u writed seems that the SBX improvement is not so noticeable.


 
  
 Actually the SBX surround difference is vey noticeable. I prefer stereo for stereo files & SBX surround for 5.1 surround material. Otherwise something is missing on the 5.1 surround material without SBX (the 2 side channels at the very least).
  
 Activating SBX in surround with stereo recordings sounds a lot like Carvers Sonic Holography or Polk Audios SRS loud speakers. Everything is too big Pianos stretch from wall to wall as do drum sets with stereo material. With surround material it makes sense to turn on SBX surround as the intention of the producers is to surround you with music in a not necessarily realistic fashion.


----------



## cheeno50

1.
 When I turn off sbx studio do I still use the card's hardware to its full potential? Or do certain parts of it turn off/ not get used?
  
 2.
 I use 2.1 speakers. I have it set to 2.0/2.1 in sbz control panel and I noticed that windows changes to stereo mode from 5.1.   Will this affect how the surround effect works and games? (I used 5.1 headphones for games anyways. just curious about speakers)


----------



## NoOneLt

1. Yes you do use full hardware potential without SBX. It is only some " digital enhancements" witch i find not useful, except surround in some games.. But i believe it depends on headphones or speakers one uses.
 2. To get SBX surround windows settings must be 5.1 then SBX takes 5.1 signal and downmix it to cards HP or line-out witch is stereo. I didn't used speaker out though, but i believe it should work the same.


----------



## germanium

I have used SBX surround on speakers & headphones. The surround effect very convincing with speakers but so much on my headphones. Windows must be set to 5.1 surround in order to down mix all channels to stereo, otherwise you miss the sounds in the channels that are not in the front hemisphere. SBX also applies something similar to Carver's sonic holography to stereo recordings as well when SBX surround is turned on with stereo recordings


----------



## cheeno50

What settings do you guys use for 2.1 speakers? Mainly for music and movies.

I currently have the card setting set to 2.0/2.1 and Windows sets itself to stereo every time I change to speakers.


----------



## NoOneLt

Use 5.1 surround and turn-off additional speakers this will set 5.1 in Win set-up automatically. Or use stereo but then set 5.1 in win manually, turn on SBX surround for virtual surround, try playing with % scale for optimal result.
  
 Only stereo direct disables 5.1 but it enables 192 kHz playback.


----------



## cheeno50

If I set it to 5.1 and turn off additional speakers won't I lose sounds that get directed to speakers ? Like entire parts of movies


----------



## NCSUZoSo

The ZXR will play 24/192 in any mode, at least for me using foobar2000 and WASAPI.  I believe Stereo Direct is just supposed to give a higher fidelity stereo sound.


----------



## NoOneLt

ncsuzoso said:


> The ZXR will play 24/192 in any mode, at least for me using foobar2000 and WASAPI.  I believe Stereo Direct is just supposed to give a higher fidelity stereo sound.


 
 Hey, could be, but official spec. states:
  

Maximum Playback Quality:  
  
  
5.1 : Up to 96kHz 
 Stereo Direct: Up to 192kHz
 Maybe WASAPI overrides that somehow.. And in Windows sound settings i saw 192 only in stereo direct mode. And with foobar i use ASIO, i think it takes win bits and hZ's


----------



## kashim

hi guys i have a asus rog z97 maximus ranger vii with a good onboard audio...and have bought a soundblaster z for amp my akg k612 pro...is a worth buy or not?


----------



## kashim

hi guys i bought akg k612 pro + soundblaster z for gaming...now i play on cs go and i m so confused...i wanna have a larger soundstage possible with better positional audio possible...then this are my questions
 1)i need to put windows 5,1 or not?
 2)in game 5.1 or stereo?
 3)what effects i need to active in game?(sbx cristallizer)


----------



## NCSUZoSo

noonelt said:


> Hey, could be, but official spec. states:
> 
> 
> Maximum Playback Quality:
> ...


 
  
  
 I've never actually used the ASIO output option with the ZXR.  How does that sound compared to WASAPI?  Also do I need to do anything in foobar?  I don't see ASIO as an option the output device.


----------



## NoOneLt

Hey,
  
 If we try to dig deep then it seems that Z have 22 ohms output impedance and K612 PRO is 120 Ohms headphone, there is rule of 1/8 that means that Z will perform better on higher impedance headphones.. 22x8 Ohms. But you know that rules, you could never hear the difference. I think you will be OK 
  
 About in game surround. Turn on SBX surround and turn-OFF everything else in SBX. Set surround % to something like 30% for start. Windows should be set to 5.1 game also if it is possible. Try it out.'
  
 UPD: BTW CS as far as i know it doesn't have any surround after some version, so just keep it plain stereo for best performance. Maybe CS:GO different.. If it supports 5.1 then SBX willmake it virtual for you.


----------



## NoOneLt

ncsuzoso said:


> I've never actually used the ASIO output option with the ZXR.  How does that sound compared to WASAPI?  Also do I need to do anything in foobar?  I don't see ASIO as an option the output device.


 
 Really hard to tell if there any real difference and from what i know there should be any significant difference. To use ASIO you need foobar component http://www.foobar2000.org/components/view/foo_out_asio and ASIO driver, it should already be installed.
  
 One general thing about playing music on PC, you should use same hardware settings as recording have, example if recording is 16 bit 44.1 CD then it is best to keep your setting like this, you will avoid resampling if your settings is 24 bit 96kHz as example.. Again i personally do not have that great ears to hear most of difference people are talking about but it is just like some "best practice"


----------



## kashim

noonelt said:


> Hey,
> 
> If we try to dig deep then it seems that Z have 22 ohms output impedance and K612 PRO is 120 Ohms headphone, there is rule of 1/8 that means that Z will perform better on higher impedance headphones.. 22x8 Ohms. But you know that rules, you could never hear the difference. I think you will be OK
> 
> ...


 
 then for u sbz is worth or i sell and use onboard?i have found this 
 http://i.imgur.com/ytnbraE.png
 what do you think is better for gaming?i have tourned all effect off and sbx at 30% at moment ^^


----------



## CyberAthlete

Hmmm I have an interesting situation.
 I am using the SB ZxR and I have the Senn HD 700 (150 Ohm) and Shure SRH 1540 (46 Ohm).
  
 I am using the ACM to plug in my HP. Issue is that the HD 700 seems to be the louder headphone.
  
 I keep the PC volume at 100 and have to push the ACM to 80% volume to get a decent sound level with the Shure SRH1540. With the HD 700 I don't even have to be at 50% to enjoy music at med-high volume. But it's not the same with the Shure. It's really pissing me off since I upgraded to this sound card because of the ACM. And I thought the Any thoughts? Thanks!


----------



## NoOneLt

kashim said:


> then for u sbz is worth or i sell and use onboard?i have found this
> http://i.imgur.com/ytnbraE.png
> what do you think is better for gaming?i have tourned all effect off and sbx at 30% at moment ^^


 
 You see it is virtual surround not true 5.1, SBX won't help here and i think only make worse.., use headphone setting in-game and SBX surround OFF and see how the positioning looks like to you. Then you could try in game virtual 5.1 leaving SBX surround OFF.
  
 I think Z would still be better, it has headphone amp and not so bad DAC, you should have better overall experience even in games. And what i found my ZxR manages microphone much better than friends on-board. And you could use SBX surr. in other games in future or other SBX features you may like


----------



## NoOneLt

cyberathlete said:


> Hmmm I have an interesting situation.
> I am using the SB ZxR and I have the Senn HD 700 (150 Ohm) and Shure SRH 1540 (46 Ohm).
> 
> I am using the ACM to plug in my HP. Issue is that the HD 700 seems to be the louder headphone.
> ...


 
 Hey, this is where rule of 1/8 comes in, and ZxR has 10 or 40 ohms impedance according to various sources:
  
 "The greater the output impedance the greater the voltage drop with lower impedance loads. This drop can be large to enough to prevent driving low impedance headphones to sufficiently loud levels." ,
  
 And Shure is 99 dB/mW and Senn 105 so they goes louder easier. You could try ZxR in high gain (though lower always better) ZxR should not be able damage both your HP in high gain.
  
 Keep PC volume at 80 for best quality and use ACM, but ACM is one more point in chain so it can only make worse not better..


----------



## germanium

noonelt said:


> Hey, this is where rule of 1/8 comes in, and ZxR has 10 or 40 ohms impedance according to various sources:


 
  
 It is indeed 40ohms I found the resistors & measured them.
  
  At high gain the ZXR can damage low impedance headphones.


----------



## NoOneLt

germanium said:


> It is indeed 40ohms I found the resistors & measured them.


 
 Hey, thanks for the accurate info! As most sources pointed to 10, and 40 is pretty high so ZxR should be rather picky with various headphones.


----------



## CyberAthlete

High Gain mode works....I don't see how it will damage the headphones but the volume went considerably higher...thanks!


----------



## NCSUZoSo

To anyone else running a mid to high end 5.1 setup, have you found there is a sweet spot on the SBX Surround found around 39% for stereo sources into 5.1?


----------



## SoFGR

sbx surround is awesome for CSGO,  my sweet spot is 67% 
 stop spreading fud


----------



## NCSUZoSo

When you go past ~40% with stereo sources the center channel just takes over and the left/right speakers are drowned out.  CS:GO is in 5.1 already, do you use SBX Surround on top of it?
  
 BTW, I stopped using SBX's Crystalizer after a year or so because I found it makes my speakers sound sterile instead of their warm signature.


----------



## genclaymore

Pretty much just make sure your windows settings and games are set to 5.1, as you put the sound card control panel to headphones and then enable SBX and pick a %. SBX shouldn't be used as well neither of the settings when you are listening to music as they screw up the music.


----------



## CyberAthlete

So as long as the song sounds clear in High Gain mode, the headphones should be ok I presume? I am not hearing any distortion or bottoming out when I play both Senn HD 700 and Shure 1540 in High Gain mode...


----------



## cheeno50

I run on a 2.1 speaker setup. It defaults to stereo in windows. I don't really notice much difference with sbx surround on or off at 67%. I just leave it on anyways. Maybe the music becomes a bit more forward if anything.
  
  
 For my headphones. I have it default to 5.1 in windows and i turn off all sbx effects since they are higher end headphones. 
 My only question is am i getting the best quality at 5.1 in windows? (sbz default)


----------



## NoOneLt

cyberathlete said:


> So as long as the song sounds clear in High Gain mode, the headphones should be ok I presume? I am not hearing any distortion or bottoming out when I play both Senn HD 700 and Shure 1540 in High Gain mode...


 
 Both your headphones takes a lot of mW and ZxR seems to output this values witch are pretty low, so it won't damage your HP:
  
 Headphone Out (32/33 ohms) : 70mW(normal gain), 275mW(high gain)
 Headphone Out (300 ohms) : 32mW(normal gain), 112mW(high gain)
 Headphone Out (600 ohms) : 18mW(normal gain), 64mW(high gain)
  
 Values found here and i can't tell they are 100% correct but seems more or less legit.


----------



## germanium

noonelt said:


> Both your headphones takes a lot of mW and ZxR seems to output this values witch are pretty low, so it won't damage your HP:
> 
> Headphone Out (32/33 ohms) : 70mW(normal gain), 275mW(high gain)
> Headphone Out (300 ohms) : 32mW(normal gain), 112mW(high gain)
> ...


 

 While the ZXR MAY not be able to damage them power wise at high volume I can assure that they will damage some headphones with excessive long term excursion in the bass. I have damaged headphones that way. This I did to some Grado headphones which only lasted a few months under said treatment. These were open headphones which leaked a lot of bass out the ear pads so they had to make up for that by providing extra excursion. This excursion eventually breaks the fine wire leading to the voice coil. I fell asleep with them on & playing & during sleep they would come off & as such the driver would become unloaded which would raise the excursion even more. This was at comfortable listening volumes which is why I no longer buy Grado headphones. This happened with several Grado phones I have owned. 
  
 Bear in mind that power ratings of speakers & headphones are in no way saying that they can handle that kind of power continuously. Those are peak levels that they can handle with wide dynamic recordings such as classical & most jazz, not highly compressed rock recordings. Same goes for a car engine, they won't last very long if run continuously at max power, not even diesel truck engines will even though they can handle max power far longer than a car engine.


----------



## CyberAthlete

noonelt said:


> Both your headphones takes a lot of mW and ZxR seems to output this values witch are pretty low, so it won't damage your HP:
> 
> Headphone Out (32/33 ohms) : 70mW(normal gain), 275mW(high gain)
> 
> ...




Makes sense. I only got higher volumes at high gain. Should've tried it sooner. Wasn't sure what to expect. I've set my pc volume at 80% and the high gain drives the rest. Thx.


----------



## NoOneLt

germanium said:


> Bear in mind that power ratings of speakers & headphones are in no way saying that they can handle that kind of power continuously. Those are peak levels that they can handle with wide dynamic recordings such as classical & most jazz, not highly compressed rock recordings. Same goes for a car engine, they won't last very long if run continuously at max power, not even diesel truck engines will even though they can handle max power far longer than a car engine.


 
 Hi, could you clear thing a bit, HD700 says to be "Max. nominal long-term input power 500 mW " @150 Ohm, so as i understand ZxR could give them max ~240 mW? And they should be 100% safe with ZxR at any volume?
  
 And Shure SRH1540 says only about max. input 1000mW, here i believe is the case when they could live it for some ms at 1000 mW peaks? But @46 Ohm ZxR should also be ~240 mW max is there still possible damage here? Except ear bleeding? 
  
 Or in this case we should ask manufacturer for more details? I would like to understand this better.. Because if someone picks headphones to pair with something then it is good to know..


----------



## germanium

noonelt said:


> Hi, could you clear thing a bit, HD700 says to be "Max. nominal long-term input power 500 mW " @150 Ohm, so as i understand ZxR could give them max ~240 mW? And they should be 100% safe with ZxR at any volume?
> 
> And Shure SRH1540 says only about max. input 1000mW, here i believe is the case when they could live it for some ms at 1000 mW peaks? But @46 Ohm ZxR should also be ~240 mW max is there still possible damage here? Except ear bleeding?
> 
> Or in this case we should ask manufacturer for more details? I would like to understand this better.. Because if someone picks headphones to pair with something then it is good to know..


 

 It's not the power so much as the bass frequency excursion, especially on the low impedance phones. Mid band they could probably handle that much


----------



## bcschmerker4

noonelt said:


> Both your headphones takes a lot of mW and ZxR seems to output this values witch are pretty low, so it won't damage your HP:
> 
> Headphone Out (32/33 ohms) : 70mW(normal gain), 275mW(high gain)
> Headphone Out (300 ohms) : 32mW(normal gain), 112mW(high gain)
> ...


 

 In which case, anybody tested piezoelectric cans with these high-output Sound Blaster® cards?  I can't justify exposing dynamic headphones, even the 600+ ohm variety, to such power continuously; the transducer voice coils would burn out in no time under the abuse the Creative Laboratories® SB1500 and SB1506 would dish out at default headphone volume.


----------



## cheeno50

soooooo. whats the sweet spot settings for surround with high end headphones? For music obviously


----------



## NoOneLt

Obviously off.. for stereo recordings.


----------



## skyhakuu

Hi.
 I buy one krk generation 3 powered 5 and is working good on my zxr, by RCA.
 I want to buy a SUB now,  how i do that ?  i just plug the sub in the p2 on zxr ? or i need to buy one central speaker too ?
 thanks;


----------



## nicholascroth

Hey guys, I was wondering about my idea for a desktop setup. I have the Sound Blaster Zx, and I was wondering, if I were to purchase a Schiit Asgard 2 or Valhalla 2 to power a pair of Sennheiser HD 700s, would it be a bad idea to just plug the amp into my sound card? Would you recommend I purchase a separate DAC for the Senns? Basically, I'm asking if the DAC in the Zx is sufficient for the Sennheiser 700s.
  
 Thanks


----------



## skyhakuu

nicholascroth said:


> Hey guys, I was wondering about my idea for a desktop setup. I have the Sound Blaster Zx, and I was wondering, if I were to purchase a Schiit Asgard 2 or Valhalla 2 to power a pair of Sennheiser HD 700s, would it be a bad idea to just plug the amp into my sound card? Would you recommend I purchase a separate DAC for the Senns? Basically, I'm asking if the DAC in the Zx is sufficient for the Sennheiser 700s.
> 
> Thanks


 
  
  
 yah its OK, the DAC on zx its pretty decent one.


----------



## CZ Eddie

Folks,
 I have the *Sound Blaster Z* sound card outputting via 3.5mm audio to *Miccus TX4 APTx Bluetooth transmitter* to *Avantree Saturn APTx Bluetooth Receiver* to *FiiO E6 Headphone Amplifier* to *Yamaha PRO 500 Headphones*.
 My computer is a Dell XPS 8700 i7 (mid-hi end specs).  And I'm VERY unhappy with the audio quality.  At least, I'm unhappy whenever the computer volume is pushed past 25%.  The sound quality becomes heavily distorted.  If computer volume is set to 25% or lower, then audio sounds decent.
 Any suggestions on how to set this up to work better?
  
 I had the same issue with my last computer and last Win7x64 OS install.  
 All drivers are updated.
 I've used various media players like Zoom, Windows player, MCE-HC, etc.


----------



## germanium

cz eddie said:


> Folks,
> I have the *Sound Blaster Z* sound card outputting via 3.5mm audio to *Miccus TX4 APTx Bluetooth transmitter* to *Avantree Saturn APTx Bluetooth Receiver* to *FiiO E6 Headphone Amplifier* to *Yamaha PRO 500 Headphones*.
> My computer is a Dell XPS 8700 i7 (mid-hi end specs).  And I'm VERY unhappy with the audio quality.  At least, I'm unhappy whenever the computer volume is pushed past 25%.  The sound quality becomes heavily distorted.  If computer volume is set to 25% or lower, then audio sounds decent.
> Any suggestions on how to set this up to work better?
> ...


 
  
  
 Sounds like the Bluetooth device in question has a very low overload threshold. Sound like you are driving it from the analog output & the input of the blue tooth device is overloading @ less than 1 volt input. I would look at trying a different Bluetooth device. Looked up both Bluetooth devices & both give insufficient spec to determine anything about input sensitivity or max input.


----------



## gmaister22

the ZXR is worth purchasing? I'm thinking adding some Audioengine A2+ speakers to it and as for headphones, the sennheiser hd 588
  
  
 what do you guys think?


----------



## skyhakuu

the best sound card u can buy now.
 and its perfect for one 558


----------



## cheeno50

do you guys use the sbx surround for higher end headphones? Or does it ruin the sound?


----------



## cdsa35000

Yes, with SA5000 10% to 20% for movies, 20 to 60% for games is more than enough because modded SA5000 sounds spacious fx already with stereo. 
Just need the 5.1/7.1 downmixing to SBX hp stereo, the more SBX intensity the more sound artifacts like heliumish-hollowish-smaller soundstage hearable with hi-fi sensitive hp.
Lesser hp needs more SBX intensity to distinguish from changes in sound as they can't reproduce the finer transient timbre/reverb sound details.


----------



## Fegefeuer

cheeno50 said:


> do you guys use the sbx surround for higher end headphones? Or does it ruin the sound?


 
  
 SBX is the only affordable solution that sounds good with High End headphones. I always use it.


----------



## cheeno50

anyone find a good surround % for fidelio x2 or x1?


----------



## tfninja

This thread is too long to read through to find the conclusions, so can you tell me, is it worth upgrading from an xfi extreme music? 
 I just bought some new headphones (lindy hf-100), and wonder if the Z would be a good upgrade to get more from them.
  
 also, is the oem just as good as the retail? does the red casing of the retail have a significant effect in reducing interference or is it just for appearance-sake?
  
 thanks


----------



## SCHYNEYDER

It worth change from a Xonar D2X to a Creative ZxR ?
  
 I have a Sennheiser HD 598.


----------



## germanium

schyneyder said:


> It worth change from a Xonar D2X to a Creative ZxR ?
> 
> I have a Sennheiser HD 598.


 
  
 Both are actually very high performing cards. The ZXR is better but only with modification. The D2X sounds as good if not better when comparing stock cards. Here though I'm talking about the line-out of the 2 cards. The D2X come D.C. coupled from the factory, The ZXR is not, it used electrolytic coupling caps between the I/V converters & the buffer amps. I have never liked the sound of these type of coupling capacitors though they don't seem really horrible in the case of the ZXR, shorting them out does improve sound slightly. The ZXR does have higher output than the D2X though as well as somewhat lower output impedance. Note that the ZXR headphone amp may bypass those electrolytic coupling caps though not sure about that. The ZXR is definitely better for driving low sensitivity headphones due to it's higher output amp.


----------



## NoOneLt

schyneyder said:


> It worth change from a Xonar D2X to a Creative ZxR ?
> 
> I have a Sennheiser HD 598.


 
 Some report poor performance of ZxR with low impedance HP, it is possible related to high output impedance of it. I personally would not consider it as great upgrade over D2X.


----------



## germanium

noonelt said:


> Some report poor performance of ZxR with low impedance HP, it is possible related to high output impedance of it. I personally would not consider it as great upgrade over D2X.


 

 The D2X has even higher output impedance. 100 ohms as opposed to 40 ohms so the ZXR is still better in that regard. Stock driving another amp though the D2X is better but only very slightly. Modified the ZXR is better in every way.


----------



## Incognito73

Did anyone had OS detection problems with ZXR? Well, basically, completely on random basis after reboot or standby/resume card is not detected any more and just disappears from the device manager?! There is still some device named "Sound Blaster ZXR controller" or so but no trace from the main device. It's extremely irritating, so not sure if the card is faulty or it' a known problem?!
  
 Have this card on trial run for particular HTPC build ...


----------



## NoOneLt

It happened to me a lot of times, i don't know true reason but sometimes my cat jumps on PC and pushes power button, after shutdown ZxR is gone, so i had to disable power button action.. Sometimes it seemed to be random.
  
 Sometimes turning PC off and unplugging cord helps, sometimes i had to reinsert ZXR. So far about 3-4 weeks with no problems.
  
 But if you use HTPC with some AVR wouldn't HDMI would be enough?


----------



## Incognito73

Ah ... not alone then! It looks to me as it's not initalised on-time from the BIOS itself or simply put sound card PCIe controller is playing up. So no cure for this? It's a bit baffling that production version is suffering from this. I've bought the card recently (it was Amazon offer) so it must be from the latest batch.
  
 I don't use AVR, but active speakers and sub. Also, HTPC is in quite specific rack position  so can't use anything externally (DAC etc). ZXR was somewhat decent HiFi option and only single slot PCIe card with sub/rear ports (and HQ DAC chip for each).


----------



## NoOneLt

Maybe you could try to play with "Fast boot" settings in BIOS if it is on then try to turn it off? Also try to update to latest BIOS version, i have rather old mobo witch is not supported since 2013.


----------



## Radical_53

I did have that problem too. The daughterboard helped me to get rid of it though. The alternative seems to be a re-flash of the bios on some boards, it didn't help in my case.


----------



## Incognito73

Interesting. How did the daughterboard helped you out? I don't use it, so it's somewhat interesting to know. Also, any pointers about the bios re-flash are much appreciated.


----------



## NoOneLt

I believe he just used ZXR with doughterboard and it seems to help somehow, now i remember i have read something like this in this thread.
  
 And BIOS reflash IMO is just about your mobo BIOS update, check vendor page for new version. ZXR can't be reflashed in any way as far as i know.


----------



## Radical_53

I never used it either, as I don't need its functions. For whatever reason it helps the main card to be detected though. I've had this issue throughout several MSI mainboards (many generations) and between Win 8 and 8.1. With the daughterboard, I've never had an issue.
  
 Bios flash issue was something that came from Asus.


----------



## kashim

hi guys i have akg k612 pro with soundblaster z and play competitive game like cs go and battlefield and some single player...for bes t sorround sound i have set windows settings 5.1 in game headphone and put sorround like 50 for 5.1...but i need to use crystalizer,bass or other stuff?what kind of encoder i need to use?anything,dolby digital or dts?can i use it with my headphone?


----------



## YT-MrEleven1181

Hello everyone.

I'm basically looking for some advice on a good audiophile sound setup for PC. I'm just about to build my 1st gaming PC and don't know how the sound setups work, I've always been a console gamer in the past.

My current setup for console is astro mixamp pro as my DAC then schiit vali for my tube amp then Akg q701 for my headphones. So I'm looking for a good sound setup for PC now.

I also want to switch from Dolby surround sound to sbx true surround sound so looking at sound blaster products. Can I get a few opinions from use guys please ?


----------



## kashim

anyone help me


----------



## kashim

yt-mreleven1181 said:


> Hello everyone.
> 
> I'm basically looking for some advice on a good audiophile sound setup for PC. I'm just about to build my 1st gaming PC and don't know how the sound setups work, I've always been a console gamer in the past.
> 
> ...


 
 competitive gaming only
 k701/q701/ad700/k612 + sb z
  
 gaming comp and fun 
 dt990/k612/hd598 + sb z
  
 for music
 dt990/k612/q701 + sbzxr
  
 all for my preference


----------



## PurpleAngel

yt-mreleven1181 said:


> I'm basically looking for some advice on a good audiophile sound setup for PC. I'm just about to build my 1st gaming PC and don't know how the sound setups work, I've always been a console gamer in the past.
> My current setup for console is Astro Mix--amp pro as my DAC then Schiit Vali for my tube amp then AKG Q701 for my headphones. So I'm looking for a good sound setup for PC now.
> I also want to switch from Dolby surround sound to SBX true surround sound so looking at sound blaster products. Can I get a few opinions from use guys please ?


 
 The Astro Mix-amp is about equal to a $25 PC sound card, so best just to use it with gaming consoles.
  
 Get the Sound Blaster Z sound card and plug your AKG Q701s straight into the SB-Z's headphone jack, for gaming.
 For music, plug the Vali into the SB-Z's front speaker jack and set the SB-Z's control panel to "2-channel" and "Speaker" output, plug Q701's into Vali.


----------



## YT-MrEleven1181

purpleangel said:


> The Astro Mix-amp is about equal to a $25 PC sound card, so best just to use it with gaming consoles.
> 
> Get the Sound Blaster Z sound card and plug your AKG Q701s straight into the SB-Z's headphone jack, for gaming.
> For music, plug the Vali into the SB-Z's front speaker jack and set the SB-Z's control panel to "2-channel" and "Speaker" output, plug Q701's into Vali.




So will the sbz have enough power to drive my q701s on console double amping was a must for me ?


----------



## AlphaKiloCharli

Hey guys, been a lurker for a while but this is my first post. I bought the HD 558's about two weeks ago and I love them. I've been using my motherboards on board audio but decided I would like a sound card. I was originally going to get a dac/amp combo but I won't be using these headphones on anything but my PC and I like to game quite a bit. I was going to get the sound blaster Zx because of the better caps and for the control module. Does the ACM really degrade audio like many of you are saying? I thought it would be cool to be able adjust audio while in game without having to alt tab or use any other overlay programs. Thanks a lot, I really appreciate it!


----------



## PurpleAngel

yt-mreleven1181 said:


> So will the sbz have enough power to drive my q701s on console double amping was a must for me ?


 
  
 The SB-Z could easily drive my 250-Ohm Beyer headphones and the 62-Ohm Q701s are considered only slightly more power hungry.
 I would guess the Vali is a better headphone amplifier, then the one built into the SB-Z.
 You could even try connecting the SB-Z's headphone output to the input on the Vali, see how that sounds, with the Q701s
 Double amping is never really recommended, but sometimes it's still the best possible setup, for the given hardware.
 You can always get something like a Schiit Modi (optical), connect it between the SB-Z's optical output and the Vali amp.


----------



## nicholascroth

alphakilocharli said:


> Hey guys, been a lurker for a while but this is my first post. I bought the HD 558's about two weeks ago and I love them. I've been using my motherboards on board audio but decided I would like a sound card. I was originally going to get a dac/amp combo but I won't be using these headphones on anything but my PC and I like to game quite a bit. I was going to get the sound blaster Zx because of the better caps and for the control module. Does the ACM really degrade audio like many of you are saying? I thought it would be cool to be able adjust audio while in game without having to alt tab or use any other overlay programs. Thanks a lot, I really appreciate it!


 
 I have the SB Zx and was wondering the same thing when I purchased mine, as I had heard many complaints about the ACM. Like you, I wanted the ACM to easily change volume when I'm in the middle of things. I now listen frequently through the ACM with my Sennheiser HD 560 Ovation IIs. After I installed the card, I chose a song and compared the audio quality straight out the headphone jack, versus via the ACM. I could, and still cannot tell any difference in the quality of sound between the two. I have listened to those headphones through my B&K Stereo Receiver (which is ~$2.5k btw) and the level of clarity of the SB Zx via the audio control module is most certainly fulfilling, considering the price difference.I don't know if I just got lucky, but if I could guarantee your experience to be the same as mine, I'd tell you to go ahead and get the Sound Blaster Zx, I highly recommend it.


----------



## YT-MrEleven1181

purpleangel said:


> The SB-Z could easily drive my 250-Ohm Beyer headphones and the 62-Ohm Q701s are considered only slightly more power hungry.
> I would guess the Vali is a better headphone amplifier, then the one built into the SB-Z.
> You could even try connecting the SB-Z's headphone output to the input on the Vali, see how that sounds, with the Q701s
> Double amping is never really recommended, but sometimes it's still the best possible setup, for the given hardware.
> You can always get something like a Schiit Modi (optical), connect it between the SB-Z's optical output and the Vali amp.




PC sound is really confusing was on a lot of different forums last night and seen a lot of people saying completely differnt things.

So would I be better just getting the schiit modi DAC since I already have the vali and just using that only or just go with the sound blaster z vali combo.

I'll be playing fps games mostly so sound direction and footsteps are what I care about most.


----------



## AlphaKiloCharli

.


----------



## AlphaKiloCharli

nicholascroth said:


> I have the SB Zx and was wondering the same thing when I purchased mine, as I had heard many complaints about the ACM. Like you, I wanted the ACM to easily change volume when I'm in the middle of things. I now listen frequently through the ACM with my Sennheiser HD 560 Ovation IIs. After I installed the card, I chose a song and compared the audio quality straight out the headphone jack, versus via the ACM. I could, and still cannot tell any difference in the quality of sound between the two. I have listened to those headphones through my B&K Stereo Receiver (which is ~$2.5k btw) and the level of clarity of the SB Zx via the audio control module is most certainly fulfilling, considering the price difference.I don't know if I just got lucky, but if I could guarantee your experience to be the same as mine, I'd tell you to go ahead and get the Sound Blaster Zx, I highly recommend it.


 
 Thank you so much, went ahead and picked up the soundcard from Frys(Pricematched Amazon) and it sounds great with my HD 558. The ACM sounds pretty awesome too.


----------



## nicholascroth

Nice to hear you're satisfied. Did you install the SB Pro Studio software? Also, much did you pay for yours?


----------



## jincuteguy

So it's been over 2 years now, and they haven't released a new sound card yet? Just the same old stuff SBX and Dolby Headphone.


----------



## rudyae86

jincuteguy said:


> So it's been over 2 years now, and they haven't released a new sound card yet? Just the same old stuff SBX and Dolby Headphone.


 
 Creative released the X7 last year. But do you mean Hardware wise or software wise?


----------



## AlphaKiloCharli

Yup, installed it, still messing with the settings. And I got it for $110 + tax. Any settings you'd recommend for gaming or listening to music? Was planning on making multiple profiles but i don't know if it would help.


----------



## jincuteguy

rudyae86 said:


> Creative released the X7 last year. But do you mean Hardware wise or software wise?


 
  
 Yea but it has the same components as the ZXR which came out a long time ago.  They just made it to use with other p latforms and called it with a different name.
  
 I"m talking about hardware wise and a bit of software.


----------



## nicholascroth

I'm not sure what you want Creative Technology to do software-wise. The control panel is greatly improved over what it used to be, and the Dolby stuff as far as I know hasn't changed in quite a while for anything, whether it be home theater receivers, or PC sound cards. Hardware wise I think they pretty much have it covered, from under $100 to over $200. What do you want to see hardware-wise from Sound Blaster?


----------



## uziyourillusion

Cant believe how high the cost of the ZxR line has become. You use to be able to pick up the Z for $60 at Best Buy, what caused the price to shoot up so dramatically? Are they just really popular?


----------



## kenammo

alphakilocharli said:


> Thank you so much, went ahead and picked up the soundcard from Frys(Pricematched Amazon) and it sounds great with my HD 558. The ACM sounds pretty awesome too.


 
  
 +1 Like others, I've never experienced any issues or sound degradation when using my ZXR ACM. Sounds pretty awesome to my ears!


----------



## jincuteguy

So I have the Z card, and the E5 amp.  Is it better if I used the Optical cable from my Z soundcard to the E5? Or just use straight from the E5 usb cable (without the Z soundcard)?


----------



## rudyae86

uziyourillusion said:


> Cant believe how high the cost of the ZxR line has become. You use to be able to pick up the Z for $60 at Best Buy, what caused the price to shoot up so dramatically? Are they just really popular?




It drops to about 60 bucks on Black Friday. For the rst of the year, its mostly near the 100 dollar range. I maybe saw it once at 60 during late august or mid september last year.


----------



## switchride

Just got my ZxR and I'm loving the sound.  Debating if I want to sell off my tube amp and just go with the cards amp.  It would certainly save some money.


----------



## jincuteguy

So E5 vs ZXR, which one? Let put the features aside, just the sound quality.


----------



## genclaymore

For one the ZXR has op-amp swapping options, Two the ZXR Headphone amp is stronger then the E5. The only benefit the E5 has is portability. Basically you be able to change the sound signature of the ZXR with op-amps where you cant with the E5.


----------



## TsukiNick

They really went back a step with the new series of soundcards.  CMSS-3D is a lot better than what they put out.  They are really gimping EAX too.  I think I might buy a Titanium off ebay.  I had the Z but replaced it with the Asus Xonar DGX, I think the Xonar has much better sound processing, and it's nice that I can feed it to an Optical DAC like a FiiO D03K and still get Dolby Headphone to work.

 I wonder if they could make new soundcards that use Dolby's new Atmos to create a binaural output.  They really need to stop doing speaker simulation and move to object based sound.


----------



## TsukiNick

jincuteguy said:


> So I have the Z card, and the E5 amp.  Is it better if I used the Optical cable from my Z soundcard to the E5? Or just use straight from the E5 usb cable (without the Z soundcard)?


 

 Either way will sound roughly the same, but I prefer optical because you can get a non-galvanized connection.  Computers are noisy with electronics so optical can really help with getting a cleaner signal.


----------



## genclaymore

tsukinick said:


> They really went back a step with the new series of soundcards.  CMSS-3D is a lot better than what they put out.  They are really gimping EAX too.  I think I might buy a Titanium off ebay.  I had the Z but replaced it with the Asus Xonar DGX, I think the Xonar has much better sound processing, and it's nice that I can feed it to an Optical DAC like a FiiO D03K and still get Dolby Headphone to work.
> 
> I wonder if they could make new soundcards that use Dolby's new Atmos to create a binaural output.  They really need to stop doing speaker simulation and move to object based sound.


 
 It's in the eye of the beholder as some people like SBX surround over CMSS3D Headphone and vice verse. I like SBX surround as i don't like what CMSS3D headphone does to the sound when it add boomy bass and i find for me SBX surround work better. Where for some one else CMSS3D headphone works better. Also headphones will have a effect on  how well all 4 emulated headphone tech works good for the user.  But they all req the games to be config correctly and windows sound to 5.1 and headphone in their settings to work right any way.


----------



## Radical_53

Absolutely. I prefer the positioning of SBX too, at least together with my current headphones.


 Von meinem iPhone gesendet.


----------



## crv314

Hi razorpakk
  
 Try unchecking the hardware buffers option in device settings
  
 crv314


----------



## DJ XtAzY

Is it just me or whenever I plug my headphones/iems into the ACM the sound quality is crappier than when I plug into the soundcard itself? I sometimes use EQ to boost bass but it distorts with ACM. If i plugged directly to soundcard, no distortions.


----------



## genclaymore

It isn't you the ACM is known to mess with the sound quality, most people don't use it and just plug their headphones directly into the sound card. You could make your own if you have the skill.


----------



## jincuteguy

genclaymore said:


> It isn't you the ACM is known to mess with the sound quality, most people don't use it and just plug their headphones directly into the sound card. You could make your own if you have the skill.


 
  
 I thought the ACM is  just a passthrough and it doesn't do anything to the sound? so the sound should be untouched?


----------



## AlphaKiloCharli

jincuteguy said:


> I thought the ACM is  just a passthrough and it doesn't do anything to the sound? so the sound should be untouched?


 
  
 I like to use the ACM because its so convenient while gaming or even watching movies or listening to music. I didn't notice any change in sound quality. I tried switching back and forth and didn't notice any difference.


----------



## Radical_53

jincuteguy said:


> I thought the ACM is  just a passthrough and it doesn't do anything to the sound? so the sound should be untouched?


 
  
 Every new interconnect, every other piece of cable or part inside the signal path can possibly change the sound. It doesn't necessarily have to do this but it can change the sound, naturally to the worse.


----------



## jincuteguy

So how do you guys hook up your headphones straight to the soundcard without the ACM? Cause the Headphone outut of the ZxR has this 1/4" plug, and the 1/4" adapter that are included with the ZxR are the twisted one, so you need a 3.5mm jack that can twist into the 1/4" adapter, then plug it in the Headphone output of the ZxR.  So how do you guys do it? Do you have to buy a different 1/4" adapter where it doesn't twist, but the push in type?


----------



## genclaymore

You buy a 3.5mm to 1/4 adapter that plugs right onto the headphones, then you can plug the headphones into the plug on the ZXR. Monoprice has them for 41 cents.  Here http://www.monoprice.com/Product?c_id=104&cp_id=10429&cs_id=1042903&p_id=7139&seq=1&format=2 if you are in the USA.


----------



## jincuteguy

genclaymore said:


> You buy a 3.5mm to 1/4 adapter that plugs right onto the headphones, then you can plug the headphones into the plug on the ZXR. Monoprice has them for 41 cents.  Here http://www.monoprice.com/Product?c_id=104&cp_id=10429&cs_id=1042903&p_id=7139&seq=1&format=2 if you are in the USA.


 
 Thx man.  I am going to MicroCenter on Tuesday to pick up the X7 and the 1'4 adapter too.


----------



## AwakenedMachine

ZxR just dropped to $169 on Amazon.  Lowest price to date.  Was thinking about one of these but I think my new ASRock motherboard gives me the performance I want.
  
 http://www.amazon.com/Creative-Blaster-Audiophile-Performance-Headphone/dp/B00AQ5PK6I/ref=sr_1_1?s=pc&ie=UTF8&qid=1436234187&sr=1-1&keywords=zxr


----------



## paulguru

With ZXR can i drive good enought a Sennheiser HD6xx ?
 Someone say me my HD600 is not good with my sound card but ... im using it with HD600 and i cant keep the High gain mode because the volume is extremelly high ( windows mixer at 10% in normal gain  )


----------



## F900EX

Regarding the ZxR... does it make any sense to connect it to a receiver ?
  
 I have a Marantz NR1605 connected to Bose Speakers and just not getting the 5.1 sound I would like, currently I have it connected to HDMI on my GTX980


----------



## DangerClose

Any comparisons of the Sound Blaster Z or ZX (not ZXR) amp to things like the e10k?  I've seen a couple people say it powers DT880 or DT990 250 fine, but I've read more people say it can't. So I'm trying to figure out how it compares to a more known amp such as an e10k or similar.  
  
 I have a Xonar DG, and I think it'd be more powerful than that, but the question is how much more powerful.


----------



## paulguru

paulguru said:


> With ZXR can i drive good enought a Sennheiser HD6xx ?
> Someone say me my HD600 is not good with my sound card but ... im using it with HD600 and i cant keep the High gain mode because the volume is extremelly high ( windows mixer at 10% in normal gain  )


 
*HELP*


----------



## AlphaKiloCharli

dangerclose said:


> Any comparisons of the Sound Blaster Z or ZX (not ZXR) amp to things like the e10k?  I've seen a couple people say it powers DT880 or DT990 250 fine, but I've read more people say it can't. So I'm trying to figure out how it compares to a more known amp such as an e10k or similar.
> 
> I have a Xonar DG, and I think it'd be more powerful than that, but the question is how much more powerful.


 
 They are rated for 300 Ohms so they should. I'm only using a HD 558 though with my Zx so I can't give any anecdotal experience.


----------



## Luckbad

paulguru said:


> With ZXR can i drive good enought a Sennheiser HD6xx ?
> Someone say me my HD600 is not good with my sound card but ... im using it with HD600 and i cant keep the High gain mode because the volume is extremelly high ( windows mixer at 10% in normal gain  )


 
  
 Yep. Listening to the HD650 on it right now. It doesn't need high gain.


----------



## Luckbad

I've had the X-Fi Titanium HD for a long time, but I've had my eye on the ZxR for a while and have been waiting to pick it up until the price dropped. It dropped, so I grabbed it.

Sounds great. All the added benefits of the X-Fi are really slick, especially the control module and daughter board.

I was hoping it would sound about the same as the X-Fi Titanium HD, and it certainly does.

In fact, I have the hardware to test these things objectively, so I tested my Sony MDR-XB90EX on both the X-Fi Titanium HD and ZxR and thought I'd share a frequency response graph with folks here.

This curve was generated using a Dayton Audio EMM-6 Electret Measurement Microphone, Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 audio interface, and Room EQ Wizard. The mic calibration file was provided by Dayton Audio and I disabled the sound card calibration files since they are designed to compensate for sound card coloration, and I wanted to measure it rather than compensate for it here.


  
Anything below 20Hz is not 100% reliable for measurement, and that's pretty much the only place the frequency response differs.

The frequency response is, as near as makes no difference, identical. For me, that's a good thing.


----------



## Luckbad

Really enjoying the ZxR. Compared to Titanium HD:

ZxR is better for music to me. Its EQ implementation is better and is less likely to distort. It sounds the same. It supports 600Ohm impedance headphones. And for 5.1, it will actually sound better with discreet op-amps for surround channels.

The Titanium HD is a lot easier to set up for gaming. You can turn off elevation filter and macro fx, which you can't do on the ZxR. I'm still working on understanding how to get FPS gaming up to the level of the X-Fi on the ZxR.

If you use headphones, I highly advise against using the Bass effect on SBX. It's the worst thing ever. It actually completely destroys bass below the crossover frequency instead of boosting it. Maybe it works on a 5.1 system? With headphones it changes the skull-crushing bass on my Fostex TH-600 into the sound of a whoopie cushion with zero impact.


----------



## Hornet85

Hi everyone. I've finally gotten myself a SB ZxR card as an upgrade from my X-Fi Ti. Anyway I noticed on the main card, for the two capacitors that sit right above the sound core chip, they are green in color, as opposed to what I saw in other pictures of this card where all capacitors are gold. Is this something I should be concern about?
  
 Unfortunately my account can't seem to post an image, so here's a link to a picture of those capacitors:
http://i.imgur.com/XR6Fcs7.jpg
  
 Thanks


----------



## NoOneLt

Seems like Creative just revised the card. I don't think you have a lot to worry about, they seems to be using same Nichicon Muse caps, gold one is KW (or maybe FG) series and green is ES. I didn't dig deep into specs but dont' think it will make difference. And price of greens seems to be even higher, still i don't know exact specs looks like 22uF 10V (can't find exaxt match from KW or FG series)
  
 You could open up the card and check what else Creative revised  Would be interesting.
  
 Spec's don't say anything about capacitors, they don't have to be gold or something, so if you really upset you could say to your retailer that card as not as advertised in photographic images.


----------



## Hornet85

noonelt said:


> Seems like Creative just revised the card. I don't think you have a lot to worry about, they seems to be using same Nichicon Muse caps, gold one is KW (or maybe FG) series and green is ES. I didn't dig deep into specs but dont' think it will make difference. And price of greens seems to be even higher, still i don't know exact specs looks like 22uF 10V (can't find exaxt match from KW or FG series)
> 
> You could open up the card and check what else Creative revised  Would be interesting.
> 
> Spec's don't say anything about capacitors, they don't have to be gold or something, so if you really upset you could say to your retailer that card as not as advertised in photographic images.


 
 Thanks a lot for the explanation. I did open it up and from what I can tell, the rest looks similar to the previous version. Anyway I'm certainly not returning it as long as it works fine, I've waited long enough for this card to arrive, heh.


----------



## cheeno50

whats the best sbx surround percentage for gaming on headphones?


----------



## Luckbad

cheeno50 said:


> whats the best sbx surround percentage for gaming on headphones?




I actually like their default FPS profile for shooters after using it for a while. I just disable the EQ. I'm still getting acquainted with the card after years with the X-Fi Titanium HD. The default FPS setting sounds close to the standard 3D gaming setting on the X-Fi. Depending on the headphones, you might need to adjust the surround setting up or down.


----------



## Fegefeuer

cheeno50 said:


> whats the best sbx surround percentage for gaming on headphones?


 
  
 I agree with Luckbad. 67% is the best place to start. I personally never go below as the harder blending of the rear cues is easy enough to notice at 67% and going down further would "enhance" it.
  
 Try 67, 79, 91, 100 for a while, then decide. Why 79, 91? CUZ I'M SO RANDOM.


----------



## Riversound

Hello! I'm using ProTools 10 with the Creative ZxR sound card.
When I run protools. I get the following error. And protools closes.

*"Pro Tools hardware is not installed or in use by another program"*

With my old soundcard the Creative X-FI the Protools works perfect.
The protools it´s original. I run it in windows 8.1 pro 64bits.
All my drivers are updated.
What could be happening?


----------



## paulguru

ZXR driver for Windows 10 ????


----------



## NoOneLt

8.1 driver works fine


----------



## Radical_53

My card is working fine also (did the upgrade, no fresh installation).


----------



## SoFGR

switched back  to the AKG 601s  yesterday. 
  
  
  
 I use a short  RCA to minijack cable i can double-amp them with the astro thingie ( https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-bC614OCMM-Y/Vb8QlmZWQzI/AAAAAAAACgI/woixqcaCZrM/w1113-h835-no/15%2B-%2B1 ) and  have not experienced any kind of problems yet.  (minus the finicky 6.35mm adapter  ) 
  
 for FPSs, i just switch to the default "first person shooter" profile and then disable "smart volume",  so it's basically SBX surround 30% + that custom EQ preset, very good for Insurgency and csgo !
  
 tried the same settings that i used with  CALs ( sbx surround 67% + EQ disabled  )  but it just didn't sound  right, 
  
 I guess sbx surround % should be lowered when using  fully open sets with a spacious soundstage, will report back if i feel the need to tweak more


----------



## Soymilk

what's the current consensus on sound cards for fps gaming? my old x-fi elite pro just kicked the bucket a couple weeks ago (some visibly busted caps, tried replacing them but didnt work  ) and i'm looking for a replacement. through some quick searching i've been seeing some stuff about the titanium hd, but that seems to not be in production anymore?


----------



## genclaymore

The Titanium HD is not in production any more and because of that, it took a price hike and hard to find. So you might be paying alot just to get it. The other options you have is the Sound blaster Z or a used Sound blaster ZXR that i have seen go for 150-180 on ebay.


----------



## JamesBr

genclaymore said:


> The Titanium HD is not in production any more and because of that, it took a price hike and hard to find. So you might be paying alot just to get it. The other options you have is the Sound blaster Z or a used Sound blaster ZXR that i have seen go for 150-180 on ebay.


 
 It really sux for the Titanium HD, for me it was a deal breaker at that price. the ZXR is a good alternative and the price is reasonable!


----------



## Luckbad

jamesbr said:


> It really sux for the Titanium HD, for me it was a deal breaker at that price. the ZXR is a good alternative and the price is reasonable!


 
  
 I have both cards, and the ZxR performs as well as the Titanium HD. I might consider selling the Titanium HD if someone has a good offer, otherwise I'm just giving to a buddy of mine.


----------



## Soymilk

is there a fundamental difference between the z and zxr, or is it more of an incremental upgrade? for the price, the z is looking pretty good to me at its price, zxr is a bit steep. might just live off onboard sound for now until black friday rolls around and hope they go on sale


----------



## genclaymore

THe ZXR has op-amp sockets and a TPA6120A2 headphone amp which is stronger then the one that is on the Z, while the sound blaster z doesn't and just have the maximum hp amp chip which isn't adjustable.


----------



## Luckbad

soymilk said:


> is there a fundamental difference between the z and zxr, or is it more of an incremental upgrade? for the price, the z is looking pretty good to me at its price, zxr is a bit steep. might just live off onboard sound for now until black friday rolls around and hope they go on sale


 
  
 There are big enough differences that, if you're a gamer/audiophile, you'll want to wait for the ZxR to go on sale. I got mine for $170 on sale a while ago. If you mostly care about gaming, the Z will do fine, but music is going to sound better on the ZxR.


----------



## genclaymore

Usually ebay some times have deals on used ZXRs if your lucky and if you trust ebay, Some times amazon.


----------



## Soymilk

thanks for the feedback guys, i'll try and wait to see if there's a good enough sale that i can justify expanding my budget


----------



## alv4426

If you are willing to go used ill sell you mine.


----------



## jincuteguy

If you have more money, get the X7, it's way better than the ZxR, even though most ppl will tell you ZxR is just as good as X7.  
 I listened to both in my PC, and the X7 is the clear winner.
  
 Buy the ZxR if you are on a budget.
  
 And buy the Z if you just want to have sound.


----------



## paulguru

Excuse me can i change the gain value of my ZXR changing the op-amp ?
 my zxr gain is too strong for my HD598, how can i fix it ?


----------



## Luckbad

paulguru said:


> Excuse me can i change the gain value of my ZXR changing the op-amp ?
> my zxr gain is too strong for my HD598, how can i fix it ?


 
  
 Um... it shouldn't be. Turn your volume down on the computer and/or the volume control unit and make sure you have it set to Normal Gain. I have a 598 and it works great. I also have 16 Ohm headphones that are fine on it as well.


----------



## Luckbad

jincuteguy said:


> If you have more money, get the X7, it's way better than the ZxR, even though most ppl will tell you ZxR is just as good as X7.
> I listened to both in my PC, and the X7 is the clear winner.
> 
> Buy the ZxR if you are on a budget.
> ...


 
  
 I tried an X7 as well and it's better than the ZxR for music IF your computer creates noise or interferes with the ZxR in any way. I decided to get the ZxR for gaming and I have better amps for music than the X7.


----------



## kenammo

I finally got around to updating the ZXR driver that was released back in December 2014 (SBZxR_CD_L13_1_00_28). I was surprised to see the increase to 24/192 as an available configuration for 2.0 stereo sound:
  

  
 I also finally bought the Senn HD650s I've been lusting over. IMO, these cans are a perfect match for the ZXR. I was planning to get the X7 sometime this year, but I think I'll wait, as my current setup is quite awesome!


----------



## shagrathborgir

so,If I'll buy the zxr audio card,how will YOU use it with a Yamaha RX-A730 receiver and JBL 7.1 studio L sound system for music only??? audio output over digital optical cable,dts,or over analog rca cable (left,right)?
 I know that using the card optical out,you'll bypass the sound card's dac,from which you can benefit only using analog out,but what exactly happens in both cases,using a FLAC file...what happens with optical and analog,how does them work with the Yamaha receiver???
  
 digital means no soundcard dac and yamaha uses it's dac's and analog...uses soundcard dac"s,and then yamaha dac's too?


----------



## paulguru

luckbad said:


> Um... it shouldn't be. Turn your volume down on the computer and/or the volume control unit and make sure you have it set to Normal Gain. I have a 598 and it works great. I also have 16 Ohm headphones that are fine on it as well.


 
 i just setted it on Normal Gain and my Windows volume is around 6-8% ( 10% is too high )
 Are you using the external volume controller of Creative ?


----------



## Luckbad

I'm using the external volume controller and their software.


----------



## Luckbad

So I finally decided to sit down and a/b the ZxR (with and without external volume module) and Titanium HD.
  
 After messing with it for a couple of hours, I've determined that the audio quality is identical between the two without the volume module, and is slightly worse on the ZxR with it. The volume module adds a little bit of grain to the sound as well as a little bit of a metallic feeling to the sound. It doesn't measurably impact frequency response, but it does make it sound slightly less good.
  
 If listening to music on good headphones, you're better going directly from the card instead of the volume module. You won't notice any difference if you're playing games with it, though.


----------



## Luckbad

Hello! I am wondering if a particular connection type is possible. I have the Sound Blaster ZxR/DBpro installed in my machine. I also have an X-Fi Titanium HD if it will be necessary for this setup.
  
 I have an external DAC with various inputs (coax/optical in particular--it's the Audio-GD NOS-1704). It does not have an amplifier.
  
 I would like to use the ZxR (or Titanium HD) to output to the DAC, then I would like to send the DAC's output to the ZxR's headphone amplifier via RCA.
 Is this possible?
  
 I have an external amp and USB->SPDIF converter coming, it just won't be here for about a month. 
  
 Thanks!


----------



## AliveNoMore

I recently received my Sound Blaster Z and decided to review it for a local forum. However, the measurements I get are quite different from what various other websites have. I get these results (for 16bit/44.1 kHz): http://i.imgur.com/Jr8tHa0.png
  
 I know my test setup is not professional by any means but still... I even removed the EMI shieldon the SBZ to check if the components on my unit are the same as advertised (paranoia). They were.
  
 For a reference card I use a Xonar U7 (SBZ line out -> Xonar U7 line in). RMAA is the latest version. Both cards were using the latest drivers from the manufacturers' websites. Turned off all enhancements, DSPs, etc. 
 I even purchased a better 3.5 mm jack cable than the one I had, just to be sure it's OK.
  
 If anyone has experienced this or has suggestions on how to achieve more accurate measurements, please go ahead.


----------



## Luckbad

Basically, you just need better measurement equipment. I have a Scarlett 2i4 for headphone measurement and a DBpro that works much better for amps/dacs.
  
 I've tried measuring on standard sound cards before and it's never good.
  
 If you really care about measuring, you might consider returning the Z and getting the ZxR, because the DBpro is surprisingly good for measurements.


----------



## AliveNoMore

I would like better equipment but it doesn't grow on trees, does it now.
 In other words: 1) finding it would be very difficult where I live, 2) I cannot afford it and, probably most importantly, 3) I'm not a professional reviewer, I do this for fun in my spare time, I do not get paid for it. It wouldn't make sense for me to invest so much money into something that will use most likely once or twice ever.
  
 Well, when I measured the Xonar U7 (from its line out to its own line in) I got much better results, basically the same as various other sites/forums. However, for the Sound Blaster Z I seem to get much different ones. This is what bothers me.


----------



## Luckbad

It could just be that you're using two sound cards at once in your machine. Computers often don't like that.

Have you tried measuring the Asus with the Sound Blaster? Maybe play music with the Sound Blaster while measuring the Asus with itself.


----------



## AliveNoMore

Really? I did have the on-board card active but I wouldn't think more than one sound card would produce that much interference. And I don't see how there can be software conflicts that can cause the issue.
  
 Tonight I will disable it in UEFI and see if it makes a difference, although I very much doubt it.
  
 I'm not sure I understood your suggestion. Did you mean I should connect the speakers to the Sound Blaster Z and play music, and at the same time connect the U7's line out to its own line in and measure then? If that was your suggestion, what would it accomplish?


----------



## Luckbad

It might tell you if the measurements for the Asus are still good when another sound card is in use. Since it's external, it might not degrade.


----------



## kingy

Hi,
 Do you think ZXR DBpro card provides better dolby digital live sound quality maybe with less lag than the ordinary SB Z card?


----------



## Luckbad

The DBpro doesn't do dolby, it's a daughter card to the ZxR. And, yeah, probably. It has better hardware in it.


----------



## PurpleAngel

kingy said:


> Hi,
> Do you think ZXR DBpro card provides better Dolby Digital Live sound quality maybe with less lag than the ordinary SB Z card?


 
  
 I'm sure the answer to that is no.
 The SB-ZxR advantage over the SB-Z is the SB-ZxR offers better audio quality, which is from the time the audio hits the DAC chip and after (analog stuff)
 But they both use the same SoundCore3D audio processor, so the audio processing (digital) is the same, which is before the audio reaches the DAC chip.
 and DDL (Dolby Digital Live) is all digital, no analog involved.


----------



## kingy

Yeah, that's what I think. It's called DBpro board that has the optical out and a dedicated processor that exactly encodes the ddl.


----------



## kingy

purpleangel said:


> I'm sure the answer to that is no.
> The SB-ZxR advantage over the SB-Z is the SB-ZxR offers better audio quality, which is from the time the audio hits the DAC chip and after (analog stuff)
> But they both use the same SoundCore3D audio processor, so the audio processing (digital) is the same, which is before the audio reaches the DAC chip.
> and DDL (Dolby Digital Live) is all digital, no analog involved.


 
 Interesting. Thank you.


----------



## kingy

The fact the DBpro board is physically separated from the main board and pcie interface can it add up somehow to the quality of the output digital audio? LIke having less jitter because the board is so separated.


----------



## genme

those look outdated. just go with a good dac


----------



## kingy

I need DDL for my games.


----------



## PurpleAngel

kingy said:


> I need DDL for my games.


 
  
 DDL really has nothing to do with gaming.
 It's only real function is to compress up to 6-channels of digital audio, allowing it to pass thru S/PDIF (optical or coaxial).
 Whatever device the compressed audio is being sent to, thru S/PDIF, also needs to have DDL to un-compress the digital audio.


----------



## paulguru

excuse me, anyone know the ZXR output impedance ? Is really 40ohm ? 
 Someone says its around 10 like STX but the gain was extreme for all my headphones ( also for HD600 ).
  
 i just setted "normal gain" because with "high gain" mode was unusable.


----------



## kingy

purpleangel said:


> DDL really has nothing to do with gaming.
> It's only real function is to compress up to 6-channels of digital audio, allowing it to pass thru S/PDIF (optical or coaxial).
> Whatever device the compressed audio is being sent to, thru S/PDIF, also needs to have DDL to un-compress the digital audio.



I really hate to argue with you but you are not completely correct in your understanding in what DDL is.
DDL is a technique that encodes 5.1 PCM sound into DD standard and sends it to a receiver that decodes it.
PCM sound that pc games provide by default is no match to the DD sound.

I really would like to know people's opinion on does the DBpro help with jitter since it is not directly plugged into the pcie slot and isn't directly connected to any power source.
Or on the opposite - is it worse than a standalone sound card such as SB-Z. Since DBpro is connected with a cord with the main ZXR board and from what I understand that is coaxial connection which is so sensitive to the internal computer components "radio emissions" creating jitter.


----------



## PurpleAngel

paulguru said:


> Excuse me, anyone know the ZxR output impedance ? Is really 40ohm ?
> Someone says its around 10 like STX but the gain was extreme for all my headphones ( also for HD600 ).
> 
> I just settled "normal gain" because with "high gain" mode was unusable.


 
  
 To the best of my knowledge, the claim for the SB-ZxR headphone output having a 40-Ohm impedance is from a review on a Russian website.
 And it's only in Russian, so you have to use something like Google Translate to be able understand it (unless you happen to speak Russian, unlike that guy in Ironman 2).
 I would be nice if someone who speaks English and has good technically knowledge to try to double check the SB-ZxR's headphone output impedance.


----------



## obobskivich

paulguru said:


> excuse me, anyone know the ZXR output impedance ? Is really 40ohm ?
> Someone says its around 10 like STX but the gain was extreme for all my headphones ( also for HD600 ).
> 
> i just setted "normal gain" because with "high gain" mode was unusable.




Output impedance has nothing (directly) to do with output power or gain. That is, there's nothing that says it has to be lower because it is very high gain and gets very loud or vice versa. 




kingy said:


> I really hate to argue with you but you are not completely correct in your understanding in what DDL is.
> DDL is a technique that encodes 5.1 PCM sound into DD standard and sends it to a receiver that decodes it.
> PCM sound that pc games provide by default is no match to the DD sound.




PurpleAngel is correct; DDL encodes 6ch audio to AC-3 in real-time for compatibility with surround sound receivers. Theoretically there's no difference in terms of the content from the DDL encoder's output and the DDL encoder's input (that is, it's the same material going in as coming out), but the DD encoder is lossy and will perform (necessarily) the Dolby channel steering and frequency shaping to get 6ch into a relatively narrow bitstream. For most games this is likely not going to be noticeable, since they already draw from compressed/lossy audio samples, but it can be audible with lossless music. The DDL encoder can also apply Pro Logic to stereo sources. 

Games do not provide a "default PCM" audio signal - there is no static mix. The audio engine (e.g. FMOD) just draws from a bunch of (usually mono) samples and stitches the output together in real-time for whatever n-channel configuration is needed, in addition to any in-game music (which is usually stereo). This can be output as PCM, AC-3, DTS, analog, etc (in theory you could spit it out in DSD if you had an encoder that supported it, for example). 



> I really would like to know people's opinion on does the DBpro help with jitter since it is not directly plugged into the pcie slot and isn't directly connected to any power source.
> Or on the opposite - is it worse than a standalone sound card such as SB-Z. Since DBpro is connected with a cord with the main ZXR board and from what I understand that is coaxial connection which is so sensitive to the internal computer components "radio emissions" creating jitter.


 

It doesn't matter. Jitter has to be absolutely wretched to enter the discussion of audibility, and nothing modern is anywhere near being that bad. DBpro will be just as transparent as any other digital output. The internal wiring is not coaxial - it's a ribbon cable. Based on previous Creative products, it's also almost certainly a digital connection between the two boards - it won't be affected by RF interference like analog domain signals. Also, "radio emissions" aren't "creating jitter" - if they're significant enough to cause problems for digital transmission you just won't get a usable signal (digital is pretty much all or nothing). They can affect analog signals, but that's not what we're dealing with, and that having been said I've never observed a discrete soundcard to have issues with noise. 



purpleangel said:


> To the best of my knowledge, the claim for the SB-ZxR headphone output having a 40-Ohm impedance is from a review on a Russian website.




Why is there so much problem with it being Russian? I'm honestly starting to think this is a racist-motivated dismissal (since it keeps coming up again and again) along the lines of "Russians can't do anything right" or something like that, since the whole issue seems to be that it's in Russian (and produced by Russians) and that somehow invalidates it as a result, but if it were in English we could just blindly accept it because obviously English-speaking [whatever] is superior to Russian-speaking [whatever]. Now that may not be what's being said, but after hearing "well it doesn't count because it's in Russian" probably a dozen times, that's what I'm starting to get the impression of. And that seems incredibly wrong to me; it's numbers and math - the physics is the same in any language.


----------



## Luckbad

obobskivich said:


> Why is there so much problem with it being Russian?


 
  
 His comment could be restated as: It is on a Russian website and Google Translate might not be giving us an adequate translation. Nothing about the comment was negative toward Russians.
  
 As for the output impedance, I have no idea what it is, but I have no hiss on IEMs with the ZxR.


----------



## kingy

Interesting. Does it show that I am Russian? As I started posting you started talking about Russians. 

Yeah, and that "Russian website" is more reputable than your whathifi sellout or whatever hifi media. Your brainwashed perception instinctively refuses the real honest source of information, constantly picking up the flawed one. Your civilization is rotted and the best thing you can do unwillingly host the arabs refugees. 
 (I somehow felt this was not going to end well.)


----------



## PurpleAngel

obobskivich said:


> Why is there so much problem with it being Russian? I'm honestly starting to think this is a racist-motivated dismissal (since it keeps coming up again and again) along the lines of "Russians can't do anything right" or something like that, since the whole issue seems to be that it's in Russian and that somehow invalidates it as a result, but if it were in English we could just blindly accept it because obviously English-speaking [whatever] is superior to Russian-speaking [whatever]. Now that may not be what's being said, but after hearing "well it doesn't count because it's in Russian" probably a dozen times, that's what I'm starting to get the impression of. And that seems incredibly wrong to me.


 
  
 I never said anything negative about the Russians.
 They put the first satellite into orbit and invented the AK-47 and the T-34 tank 
 My issue is that because I have to read it using Google Translator and I'm sure the translation is not 100% perfect.
 So I might not understand well something important to me, in the review.


----------



## obobskivich

luckbad said:


> His comment could be restated as: It is on a Russian website and Google Translate might not be giving us an adequate translation. Nothing about the comment was negative toward Russians.




I wasn't really trying to "pick on" PurpleAngel or direct anything at PurpleAngel directly - it's more that I've seen some comments recently that seem to dismiss/disparage stuff coming from PersonalAudio.ru on the lines that it's Russian and somehow "it's Russian" is a reason to dismiss or disregard it. I completely get _your_ point, and I think that's probably PurpleAngel's point as well (his/her latest post confirms this; the "new post" thing showed it before I hit submit, but I'm not sure if I can quote it into this easily), but none of that should matter since all of the graphs are presented with numbers available, so it's just the commentary that's missing. 



> As for the output impedance, I have no idea what it is, but I have no hiss on IEMs with the ZxR.




After thinking about ZxR and the TPA6120 amp more deeply, I think this is probably *why* ZxR has 40 ohm output impedance. I've owned two other 6120 based amplifiers (both stand-alone units), and they both exhibited hiss with IEMs and very sensitive cans. I wouldn't be surprised if Creative threw a 30R resistor in there to "fix" that at the expense of some overall output power (the ZxR has less power available to cans than other 6120-based devices, which would comport with a resistor being in the circuit dissipating some power). 





kingy said:


> Interesting. Does it show that I am Russian? As I started posting you started talking about Russians.




No it doesn't show (at least to me) that you're Russian. And whether or not you're Russian would've had nothing to do with what I said; I'm specifically referencing comments against PersonalAudio.ru that I've seen in a few threads recently. 



> Yeah, and that "Russian website" is more reputable than your whathifi sellout or whatever hifi media.




Oh god, let's not compare PersonalAudio.ru and WhatHiFi - one takes measurements and publishes actual data, the other just shills for British-made equipment.


----------



## JamesBr

genme said:


> those look outdated. just go with a good dac


 
 I'm with you on this one!


----------



## genclaymore

He could send the functions of his sound card to a external dac if he needs the gaming functions of the sound card. But if he doesn't and just need something that has good performance, then he can just go to a external dac. But from the look of it  hes running a Receiver with 5.1 or so speakers, so a external dac wont help him if he isn't running stereo/headphones any way. Unless he plans to use headphones and if the ZXR hp amp isn't enough  or it doesn't do the said headphone justice , then he could move on to a external all in one unit.


----------



## paulguru

Creative ZXR output impedance :
  

  
 Around 40 ohm ! The biggest ever !!!


----------



## obobskivich

paulguru said:


> Creative ZXR output impedance :
> 
> 
> 
> Around 40 ohm ! The biggest ever !!!




"Biggest ever" relative to what? IEC standard is 120 ohms, and many full-size hi-fi components go into the many hundreds of ohms. Also, where'd you grab that chart from?


----------



## paulguru

Audio Technica AD*00X
 Fidelio series
 Sennheiser 5**
  
 The many hundreds ohm headphone are not fully driven with sound card.


----------



## obobskivich

paulguru said:


> Audio Technica AD*00X
> Fidelio series
> Sennheiser 5**
> 
> The many hundreds ohm headphone are not fully driven with sound card.




I don't understand what you mean - what's the list of headphones to do with the comment, and which sound card, etc? :confused_face_2:


----------



## Luckbad

You're reading things a bit incorrectly.

The ZxR can power anything from IEMs to 600 Ohm headphones.

I've used it for 16 Ohm IEMs with no noise on up to 300 Ohm Sennheiser HD650s, all with the low gain setting.

If you flip the switch to high gain, it powers 600 Ohm headphones.

There are many kinds of impedance with headphones, amps, etc. It gets confusing.

To me, is roughly the quality (for music) of an ODAC+O2, which I recently sold. Slightly warmer overall. It's also great for gaming.

That said, I have much more expensive amps/dacs for listening to music if I'm not gaming. The ZxR is the best gaming + audiophile sound card out there, but there's better if you just want to listen to music.


----------



## shagrathborgir

and what is the best sound card for music only???I'm not into gaming at all,and for movies I use media player connected to tv and jbl sound system with yamaha aventage receiver!


----------



## genclaymore

You could use the HDMI from your graphics card into your receiver, unless your receiver is a older one that doesn't have HDMI. Then it really depends on your budget as that will give people what to suggest you. if you don't list a budget people will suggest wide ranges of stuff that could be outside your budget.
  
 Edit: I saw that you have titanium HD just now i took too long typing out my post. The issue you having with the sound on your titanium HD is the op-amps that is used for the RCA output on the card. Which uses the Two JRCs in the I/Vs and the two LME49710NA's that is in the buffers. Changing I/V op-amps to something better will solve your issue. That commonly what people do if they have the know how and doesn't like the way the card sounds thru the RCA outputs, Its what I did when I had the Titanium HD. The only problem with op-amp other then wide range of different ones in the op-amp jungle, is installing them and removing them, if you do not have the know how or the tools it might be too hard for you. 
  
 The other only option i can think of for you besides HDMI is to go to a cheap external dac like a Modi2 which is $99 if your in the usa and since you mention you don't care about gaming just music and plug the RCA from there into your receiver's RCA which will give you what you want but only if your setup is a stereo based one, IF you use 5.1 then the modi2 wont benefit you as it is stereo, unless you switches back and forth from HDMI for 5.1 to RCA for stereo which would prolly be time consuming.  It what I have done when I had a Yamaha RX-V367 connected to my computer thru analog at one point with a bifrost uber using a RCA Y cable to the receiver and the hp amp.


----------



## shagrathborgir

yamaha aventage a730 is from the premium class!!!
 at the moment I have creative hi titanium hd
 I also have graphic card with hdmi!
 budget....does not matter!
 analog seems not that good,tried that with my actual card,but dts sound better,it has more power,more details in sound...this is the case/problem at the moment!


----------



## Luckbad

shagrathborgir said:


> and what is the best sound card for music only???I'm not into gaming at all,and for movies I use media player connected to tv and jbl sound system with yamaha aventage receiver!




If you're only into music, don't get a sound card. Take a look at the buying guide and get a dac/amp. Dacs work as an external sound card, usually via usb.


----------



## shagrathborgir

ok then,thank you.also tell me some models,brands...I don't know..something between 150-250 euros for new,and something not more than 500 for the in store price,I'll get it used or something,not new!
 so pc vis usb to dac/amp and then to yamaha a 730,you say it will worth the money than pc-creative titanium hd via optical to yamaha a 730?


----------



## Luckbad

shagrathborgir said:


> ok then,thank you.also tell me some models,brands...I don't know..something between 150-250 euros for new,and something not more than 500 for the in store price,I'll get it used or something,not new!
> so pc vis usb to dac/amp and then to yamaha a 730,you say it will worth the money than pc-creative titanium hd via optical to yamaha a 730?


 
  
 Err, nope. The Yamaha RX-A730 IS a dac/amp already. Going from optical with your sound card bypasses the DAC and AMP of the sound card.
  
 The only advantage you're going to get is experimenting with inputs on the Yamaha. The optical might not be the best option.
  
 I don't know enough details about that receiver to know if you can use a preamp with it, a dac with it, etc.


----------



## shagrathborgir

ok...I need help with a better sound card (titanium hd at the moment) or dac choice to use it with my yamaha a730 and jbl studiol L sound system!


----------



## PurpleAngel

shagrathborgir said:


> And what is the best sound card for music only???I'm not into gaming at all,and for movies I use media player connected to TV and JBL sound system with Yamaha Aventage receiver!


 
  
 For audio quality, your not going to find a sound card better then the Titanium-HD.
 (unless you go for one of those rare $400+ sound cards)
  
 Assuming the PC and Yamaha receiver are near each other?
 I would say to run a S/PDIF (optical or coaxial) cable from the Titanium-HD to the Yamaha receiver.
 And to also run an RCA to RCA  audio cable from the Titanium-HD to the inputs on the Yamaha.
 Try both connects and compare the audio quality, use which ever sounds better to your ears.
  
 For headphone use, you might consider getting an external headphone amplifier and connect it to the RCA jacks on the Titanium-HD.
 The Titanium-HD is decent for driving headphones, but a good external amplifier should be better.


----------



## PurpleAngel

shagrathborgir said:


> Yamaha Aventage A730 is from the premium class!!!
> at the moment I have creative hi Titanium-Hd
> I also have graphic card with HDMI!
> budget....does not matter!
> analog seems not that good,tried that with my actual card,but dts sound better,it has more power,more details in sound...this is the case/problem at the moment!


 
  
 By "analog", do you mean an analog connection from the Titanium-HD to the Yamaha?
 By "DTS" do you mean the DTS feature built into the Yamaha?
 DTS sound for music or DTS sound for Blu-ray movies?
 Is the graphics card connected to the Yamaha using HDMI?


----------



## PurpleAngel

shagrathborgir said:


> ok then,thank you.also tell me some models,brands...I don't know..something between 150-250 euros for new,and something not more than 500 for the in store price,I'll get it used or something,not new!
> so pc vis usb to dac/amp and then to yamaha a 730,you say it will worth the money than pc-creative titanium hd via optical to yamaha a 730?


 
  
 When you use S/PDIF(optical or coaxial) output from the Titanium-HD, your bypassing the DAC and op-amps built into the Titanium-HD.
 So you not really taking advantages of the Titanium-HD's audio features using S/PDIF.


----------



## shagrathborgir

yamaha is almost 2m away from pc.I've tried that...optical from creative to yamaha,and rca from pc to yamaha!the optical with dts sound is way better than rca,which sounds not so rich in detail and not so powerful..lack of bass also!
 I'm not interested in how headphones will sound,I don't listen to music at headphones in my house!


----------



## shagrathborgir

purpleangel said:


> When you use S/PDIF(optical or coaxial) output from the Titanium-HD, your bypassing the DAC and op-amps built into the Titanium-HD.
> So you not really taking advantages of the Titanium-HD's audio features using S/PDIF.


 
 YES,I know...but using the rca cable I don't get such a great audio quality...this is strange!
 optical is dts,rca is pcm....and dts sounds better,louder,more details,more bass...
 I'll test is again tomorrow,but still there is a big difference between these two!


----------



## PurpleAngel

shagrathborgir said:


> Yamaha is almost 2m away from PC.I've tried that...optical from creative to Yamaha,and RCA from PC to Yamaha !the optical with DTS sound is way better than RCA,which sounds not so rich in detail and not so powerful..lack of bass also!
> I'm not interested in how headphones will sound,I don't listen to music at headphones in my house!


 
  
 It seems like the optical connection is working fine for you.
 Have you tried removing the Titanium-HD from the computer and run optical from the motherboard to the Yamaha, see if it sounds the same (just as good)?
 For music, I like to use Foobar2000 (with WASAPI) on the PC and I also run optical from my PC.


----------



## shagrathborgir

purpleangel said:


> It seems like the optical connection is working fine for you.
> Have you tried removing the Titanium-HD from the computer and run optical from the motherboard to the Yamaha, see if it sounds the same (just as good)?
> For music, I like to use Foobar2000 (with WASAPI) on the PC and I also run optical from my PC.


 
 no,it's not the same sound from the motherboard.U use power dvd for listening to music!


----------



## PurpleAngel

shagrathborgir said:


> YES,I know...but using the rca cable I don't get such a great audio quality...this is strange!
> optical is DTS, RCA is PCM....and DTS sounds better,louder,more details,more bass...
> I'll test is again tomorrow,but still there is a big difference between these two!


 
  
 Both the optical cable and the RCA cable should be passing two channels of PCM (un-compressed) audio.
 Two-channels is all that is need for music
 The only use for DTS with optical is DTS-Connect, which can compress up to 6-channels of digital audio, for passing thru S/PDIF (optical/coaxial).
 I can see 6-channels of DTS audio, from a Blu-ray disc being able to pass thru S/PDIF
 So I'm try to under stand how DTS is effecting the music audio quality?


----------



## obobskivich

purpleangel said:


> Both the optical cable and the RCA cable should be passing two channels of PCM (un-compressed) audio.
> Two-channels is all that is need for music
> The only use for DTS with optical is DTS-Connect, which can compress up to 6-channels of digital audio, for passing thru S/PDIF (optical/coaxial).
> I can see 6-channels of DTS audio, from a Blu-ray disc being able to pass thru S/PDIF
> So I'm try to under stand how DTS is effecting the music audio quality?




+1. The analog outputs are just the result of the soundcard converting that 2ch PCM to analog; it can pass that ("pre-DAC") out via the optical connection as well. Same signal. DTS is a lossy 5.1 codec used for DVD and other movie formats (its the "core" for DTS-HD on Blu-ray; a lot of HD-DVDs use DTS, etc), as well as the output for DTS: Interactive's real-time 5.1 encoding. 

It may be, however, that the Yamaha is applying some additional processing to the DTS input vs the stereo analog input, and that's what you're hearing. AVRs are relatively complex devices, and not often the most intuitive. For example if your system has two speakers and a subwoofer, running stereo analog in may not be engaging that subwoofer, whereas DTS: Interactive mixing things into 5.1 will synthesize an LFE channel that will direct bass to the subwoofer. That would be a very noticeable difference. However there's probably some decoder option on the Yamaha to take 2ch analog and provide output to the subwoofer as well.


----------



## AliveNoMore

Just for the record, I tried disabling the Realtek card in UEFI and measured the SBZ again. No change. Still get the mediocre results. I doubt it's the driver. If I get the chance I will try and measure it on another PC but at the moment this isn't possible.
  
 I remain open to suggestions.


----------



## shagrathborgir

ok,I'm back,done some tests!so my sound card is crative titanium hd and yamaha receiver a730.in all tests,I got sound in all 7 speakers!
  
 using flac files on my pc:
  
 creative xfi titanium hd - optical cable and dts encoder selected from creative console - yamaha receiver display DTS as decoder
 in yamaha menu I got this:
 format: DTS
 channel: 5.1 (3/2/0.1)
 sampling: 48kHz
 bitrate: 1536kbps
 dualogue: 0db
  
  
 creative xfi titanium hd - optical cable and encoder off selected from creative console - yamaha receiver displays PCM as decoder
 in yamaha menu I got this:
 format: PCM
 channel: 2.0
 sampling: 96kHz
 bitrate:---
 dualogue:---
  
  
 creative titanium hd - rca cble (red and white) encoder off from creative console - yamaha receiver displays ANALOG
 in yamaha menu I got this:
 format: Analog
 channel: 2.0
 sampling: ---
 bitrate: ---
 dualogue: ---
  
 I turned off the subwoofer for the test!
  
 NOW,the PCM sound's a little bit worse than ANALOG,with almost no bass,no punch at all and the sound is sharp in both PCM and ANALOG,and it seems not so detailed.highs are to present,even the eq is turned off.ANALOG has more punch than PCM,but DTS sounds better than both...it is louder,punchier,almost no need for subwoofer but also more detailed..there is a sound which is almost not present with either PCM or ANALOG!
 In short...PCM and ANALOG almost sounds as my motherboard audio out,10 years ago...with such low volume
 With DTS I keep my yamaha at -30 and for PCM and ANALOG I have to go to -24 and thhen there's so much highs in sound and lack of bass and details!
  
 So,is this strange???
 I really thought that PCM should sound better!
  
 My questions:
 1.Why is sampling rate higher with PCM than with DTS
 2.If using optical out bypass the dac's sound card,that means it bypass with both DTS and PCM,and only ANALOG uses creative dacs?
 3.Can someone explain please,what actually happens with the flac file in all 3 ways?when and how it is converted and what does the yamaha amp really do in every case?
 4.Is there a reason to replace the creative titanium hd card with another pc card,is there something better ou there?


----------



## PurpleAngel

shagrathborgir said:


> ok,I'm back,done some tests!so my sound card is crative titanium hd and yamaha receiver a730.in all tests,I got sound in all 7 speakers!
> using flac files on my pc:
> creative xfi titanium hd - optical cable and dts encoder selected from creative console - yamaha receiver display DTS as decoder
> creative xfi titanium hd - optical cable and encoder off selected from creative console - yamaha receiver displays PCM as decoder
> ...


 
  
 I'm guess the difference might have to do with the program you are using to play your audio, PowerDVD.
 Try the free program Foobar2000.


----------



## lost&confused

does anyone notice a difference with  sound quality using windows 10 ...coming from windows 7
  
 I'm using a creative zxr soundcard with analogue outs to  amplifier and also using the sound cards built in amp
  
 with windows 10 it has a much lighter bass and a kinda U shape sound to it  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





    I have to use much more volume with windows 10  as well to get the same sound as I did with  windows 7  
  
 so I'm now back to windows 7 now and happy , I think windows 10 maybe had a better sound quality to it but I'm used to the windows 7 sound 
  
 I used the newest creative windows 10 driver r and the one from Microsoft updates both the same sound,
  
 the mid-range is also much better with windows 7 
  
 or yeah ? I  have golden ears 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  
  
 forgot to say
 I also used windows 7 drivers with windows 10 but still the same rubbish sound,  the windows 7 drivers worked fine with windows 10  for me


----------



## obobskivich

shagrathborgir said:


> So,is this strange???
> I really thought that PCM should sound better!
> 
> My questions:
> ...




No its actually starting to make sense. 

1) Because DTS is fixed at 48khz; PCM can be higher or lower. You probably have it set higher on your PC. 
2) Yes. 
3) With PCM or analog output (same thing, fundamentally - only difference is you're either having the X-Fi's DAC or the Yamaha's DAC do the final D/A) you're getting the flac decoded and output as a PCM bitstream. With the DTS output you're running that signal through the DTS encoder which is applying DTS' proprietary (as in not extremely well documented) noise shaping, EQing, including HF filtering (they knock off HF content over around 16k), compression, etc as a means of optimizing what can be done with the available bitpool (remember: they want to stick 6 discrete channels into the same bandwidth that CDDA uses for two). The Yamaha is then decoding this and playing it back. The differences in sound are likely due to the DTS encoder on the PC imposing the aforesaid features - it would explain the volume differences, the reduction in HF, the "increased detail" (compression -> lower level sounds become louder -> you hear them better), and so on. 
4) Not really, unless it is malfunctioning/not working anymore.


----------



## shagrathborgir

obobskivich said:


> No its actually starting to make sense.
> 
> 1) Because DTS is fixed at 48khz; PCM can be higher or lower. You probably have it set higher on your PC.
> 2) Yes.
> ...




And which is the "write" way to do it?I'm tempted to opt for the yamaha do be the final piece to make the conversion...I'm really lost here with the answer on nr 3!
When I use the creative dac,do I bypass the yamaha?


----------



## obobskivich

I'm assuming you mean "the 'right' way" - there isn't a single answer to that. All of your approaches are fine. Using the Creative DAC doesn't bypass the Yamaha because the Yamaha is still in the chain and must digitize inputs for its internal DSP to be of use. This is all done transparently ofc.


----------



## shagrathborgir

obobskivich said:


> I'm assuming you mean "the 'right' way" - there isn't a single answer to that. All of your approaches are fine. Using the Creative DAC doesn't bypass the Yamaha because the Yamaha is still in the chain and must digitize inputs for its internal DSP to be of use. This is all done transparently ofc.


 
 so,there isn't a right way to do this...the yamaha is not bypassed,but if I don't want to bypass the creative dac,I have only one option,and that is Analog.so nothing digital,dts or pcm,takes benefit of the creative sound card.still,the analog signal,coming from the creative card is not ok,really.I would not pay money for any kind of card,that delivers this kind of audio...is really bad.are you saying that from 10 sound cards with optical out,I'll get the same sound as with creative titanium hd???no point in getting the zxr if I'm using the optical...or will zxr sound better using it's dac's??
 or,is a 3-400 euro dac better way than a sound card??I see there are dac's with optical and analog also.
 I always thought that pcm will use the internal dac...I'm really lost!
 Another thing,it music is digital,why convert it to analog by a 200 euro sound card,and send the signal to yamaha (whici has far more better components) to do another job,when yahama can be the end of the line!still,that's they my point..I thought that PCM will be the better choice...since is digital,and only 2 ch like all recordings.
 if I get it right,in dts mode,from 2 ch audio...I send 5.1 to yamaha,then the yamaha makes 7.1...do I loose something on the way??so much money,and so many things,and I don't feel this is right,as I want pure music,just like it was recorded,with no loss of details!thank you for youre time


----------



## obobskivich

shagrathborgir said:


> so,there isn't a right way to do this...the yamaha is not bypassed,but if I don't want to bypass the creative dac,I have only one option,and that is Analog.so nothing digital,dts or pcm,takes benefit of the creative sound card.still,the analog signal,coming from the creative card is not ok,really.I would not pay money for any kind of card,that delivers this kind of audio...is really bad.are you saying that from 10 sound cards with optical out,I'll get the same sound as with creative titanium hd???no point in getting the zxr if I'm using the optical...or will zxr sound better using it's dac's??
> or,is a 3-400 euro dac better way than a sound card??I see there are dac's with optical and analog also.
> I always thought that pcm will use the internal dac...I'm really lost!
> Another thing,it music is digital,why convert it to analog by a 200 euro sound card,and send the signal to yamaha (whici has far more better components) to do another job,when yahama can be the end of the line!still,that's they my point..I thought that PCM will be the better choice...since is digital,and only 2 ch like all recordings.
> if I get it right,in dts mode,from 2 ch audio...I send 5.1 to yamaha,then the yamaha makes 7.1...do I loose something on the way??so much money,and so many things,and I don't feel this is right,as I want pure music,just like it was recorded,with no loss of details!thank you for youre time




No offense but this is insanely hard to read. Please use proper spacing with punctuation and don't rely so heavily on ellipses. 

My response to what I can divine you to be potentially saying: 

- No, there is no right or wrong way to do this in any sort of objective manner. There are many ways to connect these two components together. 

- The Yamaha cannot be fully bypassed unless you remove it from the equation - it will always have signal going into it, and coming back out of it. It cannot behave as a purely analog in-out device, because of the DSP functionality. You would need something much more basic to achieve that. 

- Using the analog outputs of the Creative card uses the Creative card's DAC. Using the digital outputs of the Creative card does not use the Creative card's DAC. The Creative card is still acting as a source device and audio interface when outputting via digital, so it's not reasonable to say it has "no benefit" - it's the only reason you're getting a DTS encoded output, for example. 

- The signal has to be converted to analog *somewhere* - where it's done is really dependent on the gear involved and what you're after. I wouldn't be so quick to jump on the "this costs more its always better no matter what because it costs more" bandwagon though - high end sound cards (like the Creative) have top-shelf DACs and output sections, and I would be surprised if it isn't using comparable or better components than the Yamaha. That said, differences between DACs tend to be extremely subtle (if even discernible in normal listening), so I wouldn't get too wrapped up in that either. 

- Running the DTS: Interactive package to convert stereo music to a 5.1 output, and then relying on the Yamaha's DSP to mix that up to 7.1 is certainly not likely to win anyone's favor as being "untouched" or "unadulterated" - a lot of processing is going on for that signal to be output on a 7.1 speaker system. That doesn't mean you can't like how it sounds, but it's certainly not native reproduction by any means. You shouldn't lose anything with either approach though - you're inputting the same signal, and just changing how it is being output at runtime.


----------



## shagrathborgir

obobskivich said:


> No offense but this is insanely hard to read. Please use proper spacing with punctuation and don't rely so heavily on ellipses.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 ok,sorry for my writing!
 you said,there are many ways to connect these two components,there are only the ways listed by me,plus dolby digital,but from what I know,dolby digital is even more compressed!
 is there a difference in titanium hd and zxr when speaking of dts and optical out???I have used 3 or 4 creative sound cards with optical out,and every one of them seem better than the previous,from what I can remember.
 from what I see,both of them are using Burr Brown dac's,but can't find the info on what Burr Brown model is used on the yamaha!still,the yamaha amp is more complex than a sound card!
 my goal is to send the purest audio signal to the yamaha whit the creative titanium hd,or with onother card,if there's something better out there.maybe changing the stock opamp's will bring me better audio quality!
 from what I remember,my first creative card had analog outputs,not rca,but 3x3.5 jack and my other amp had multi ch input.
 since you know more than I do,what would you do,and how would you use what I have,or what would you change?thank you!
 So,is there something better out there for optical (xonar,auzentech),than titanium hd?is there something better with analog out than titanium hd?


----------



## obobskivich

shagrathborgir said:


> you said,there are many ways to connect these two components,there are only the ways listed by me,plus dolby digital,




Hence, "many ways" - there isn't just a singular way to plug everything together.



> but from what I know,dolby digital is even more compressed!




Dolby Digital uses a somewhat smaller bitpool than DTS, but you can't compare Dolby and DTS bitrates to mp3 or similar bitrates, because the encoders are much more sophisticated in what they're doing. 



> is there a difference in titanium hd and zxr when speaking of dts and optical out???I have used 3 or 4 creative sound cards with optical out,and every one of them seem better than the previous,from what I can remember.




There should be no difference apart from the processing features that a given card can apply - the Titanium has CMSS with the X-Fi proprietary extensions (that almost nothing uses), while the ZxR has SBX. But both support the DTS: Interactive package. 



> from what I see,both of them are using Burr Brown dac's,but can't find the info on what Burr Brown model is used on the yamaha!still,the yamaha amp is more complex than a sound card!




Complexity doesn't necessarily mean quality. The Yamaha has a lot more "stuff" going on - this isn't to say it is bad, just that I wouldn't expect it to be across-the-board superior to a high end soundcard. The ZxR (and iirc Titanium HD) use TOTL DACs, the Yamaha may or may not - like you said, it's more complex, and they may have had to cut down some parts in order to get a certain price point or whatever other goal. 



> my goal is to send the purest audio signal to the yamaha whit the creative titanium hd,or with onother card,if there's something better out there.maybe changing the stock opamp's will bring me better audio quality!




Changing the opamps will do nothing for the digital out. If your goal is "purity" (which is, by itself, impossible to quantify) then the TOSlink connection sending out bitperfect (or as close as you can realistically get) PCM is probably the best choice. However this assumes the Yamaha is the best place for this signal to be decoded and processed - it may or may not be. 



> from what I remember,my first creative card had analog outputs,not rca,but 3x3.5 jack and my other amp had multi ch input.




The X-Fi should have multi-ch out as well, but I don't know if that specific Yamaha has multi-ch input. Multi-ch analog would be more ideal since there isn't an added compression process to get an AC-3 or DTS bitstream, but depending on the material you're playing back on the PC, that AC-3 or DTS bitstream may not be a problem at all (e.g. if you're playing a DVD that's equivalent to what the DVD already has - just bitstream the DVD's digital audio). 



> since you know more than I do,what would you do,and how would you use what I have,or what would you change?thank you!
> So,is there something better out there for optical (xonar,auzentech),than titanium hd?is there something better with analog out than titanium hd?




I would probably go with TOSlink - it will eliminate any potential ground loops between the PC and receiver (it doesn't sound like you have one but it never hurts to be safe), it can send out a high quality digital signal, and you can engage Dolby Digital Live or DTS: Interactive when you want 5.1 from a non-native source (e.g. for gaming) which analog stereo wouldn't allow. Replacing the card I'd only consider if it is malfunctioning - it's no slouch, as soundcards go, and sounds like its working. 

Side note: Auzentech is defunct and their products are not receiving driver updates as a result. I'd pass on them.


----------



## shagrathborgir

thank you!First of all,I use my sound card for music only,no gaming,no movies!70% of that is in flac format!The yamaha a730,cost 700 euros,it is aventage series and it has better components than the rx-v series.yamaha receivers are well known and every year awarded for the best receiver in this or that price range!my older yamaha receiver had milti ch input,but it seems that now,only the expensive ones have that.for example,the 830 does not have and the first one that have multi ch input is a1030,so the 3rd one on it's range.still,creative doesn't make multi ch out so we'll have to pass that!
 At the moment I'm using TOSlink with dts!
 "PCM is probably the best choice." well,pcm also bypass the sound card dac's and it was the worst audio in testing!
 I know that changing the opamps is only for analog,but I found this:
 http://www.guru3d.com/articles-pages/sound-blaster-x-fi-titanium-hd-review,11.html
 and when I'll have some money for this,maybe I'll try,just to see how analog,which uses the entire sound card,will sound with better components!
 So,for the moment,there's no better option than crative titanium hd and optical out!


----------



## Waro

Hello guys, I've read that the strong amplifier of the SoundBlaster Z can't be configured for low impedance headphones. My question is if it's possible to connect low impedance headphones to the output for active 2.1 sound systems to get an acceptable, not too loud volume out of the headphones?


----------



## PurpleAngel

waro said:


> Hello guys, I've read that the strong amplifier of the Sound Blaster Z can't be configured for low impedance headphones. My question is if it's possible to connect low impedance headphones to the output for active 2.1 sound systems to get an acceptable, not too loud volume out of the headphones?


 
  
 Chances are if you connect a low impedance headphone to the SB-Z's headphone jack, you might get a bloated (louder, less detailed) bass.
 I plugged my 40-Ohm ATH-A900X headphones into a SB-Z and the sound quality was still decent.
  
 Not sure how the active 2.1 speakers setup has anything to do with headphones?
 Do you mean connect the headphone directly to a 2.1 speaker setup's headphone jack and the 2.1 is connected to the SB-Z?
 Chances are the SB-Z's headphone jack is better to use, over the 2.1 setups headphone jack.
  
 The SB-Z's headphone jack has a 22-Ohm output impedance.
 Chances are the 2.1 computer speaker set has a headphone jack with an even higher output impedance.
  
 Hopefully you disabled the motherboard's on-board audio, in the BIOS, when you installed the SB-Z.


----------



## Waro

I thought one could maybe connect the headphone to the 3,5 mm jack next to the headphone jack, that's meant for active 2.1 systems. This output shouldn't get the massive 600 Ohm amplification.
  
 Is the external controller of the Zx able to control the volume independently from Windows, or does it change the Windows volume? That could be an additional way of lowering the volume for low impedance headphones.
  
 Quote:


purpleangel said:


> Hopefully you disabled the motherboard's on-board audio, in the BIOS, when you installed the SB-Z.


 
  
 I didn't buy it, but maybe will.
  
 I would use it with Sennheiser PC 360 or Sennheiser G4ME ONE, does anyone have experiences with it? Is it too loud?


----------



## paulguru

I bought AD700X
  
 plugged to 40ohm output ZXR was a disaster !!!
 4% volume on "normal gain" mode and sometimes its still too high


----------



## PurpleAngel

waro said:


> I thought one could maybe connect the headphone to the 3,5 mm jack next to the headphone jack, that's meant for active 2.1 systems. This output shouldn't get the massive 600 Ohm amplification.
> Is the external controller of the Zx able to control the volume independently from Windows, or does it change the Windows volume? That could be an additional way of lowering the volume for low impedance headphones.
> I didn't buy it, but maybe will.
> I would use it with Sennheiser PC 360 or Sennheiser G4ME ONE, does anyone have experiences with it? Is it too loud?


 
  
 The SB-Z's headphone jack does not just output "600-Ohm" amplification.
 The voltage output is that ever you set the volume controls to.
 I test the SB-Z with headphones from 32-Ohm to 600-Ohm, so using 50-Ohm Sennheiser headphones will not be a problem.
 So if you decide to set all the volume controls to max, using lower impedance (Ohm) headphones, chances are you would damage your ear drums, before damaging the diaphragms in the headphones.
  
 The Front Speaker Jack can connect to a 2.0 or 2.1 speaker setup and can somewhat drive headphones
 but it's still better to use the dedicated headphone jack, for headphones.
  
 The SB-Zx ACM module's volume knob is not directly tied to the Windows volume controls.
  
 The Sennheiser HD558 (& HD598) uses the same 50-Ohm driver as the PC360, PC363 & Game Zero headphones.
 I believe the G4ME One uses the 150-Ohm driver? (also used in the older HD555, HD595)
  
 You might consider buying a used HD558 and used SB-Z.
 Retail version of the SB-Z comes with a microphone.


----------



## Waro

Thanks for all the answes! 
  
 One last thing: Does it lower sound quality to lower the volume with the ACM? I've read that lowering the volume with external parts like this or for example a volume knob directly at the headphone (like the Sennheisers have) can affect sound quality?


----------



## PurpleAngel

waro said:


> Thanks for all the answes!
> 
> One last thing: Does it lower sound quality to lower the volume with the ACM? I've read that lowering the volume with external parts like this or for example a volume knob directly at the headphone (like the Sennheisers have) can affect sound quality?


 
  
 I've heard the same thing, the module's effect on sound quality might be minor and might only with certain headphones (maybe a given Ohm range??)
 I just think it's better to get the cheaper SB-Z, without the ACM module.


----------



## Luckbad

Regarding the ACM module, I measured into the DBpro with and without the ACM module, and the objective specs were slightly worse with the ACM than straight out the back. However, at max volume on the ACM, it was almost identical--it only seems to impact much if you reduce the volume.
  
 Objective Measurements: http://www.basshead.club/measurements/zxr/acm_comparison.html
  
 Additionally, for anyone who is interested in a Sound Blaster ZxR, I've had to put mine up for sale because some of my other gear isn't selling and I need to make rent next month.
  
 I'm going back to the X-Fi Titanium HD until I can afford a ZxR again.
  
 ... aaaaaaand the X-Fi Titanium HD is also up for grabs now. Anything that I can sell is going.


----------



## obobskivich

WRT low impedance cans on the Z and ZxR (and let me qualify: I don't have a Z, I have a Recon3D, which is essentially the same thing): I've had no problems with Grado, Audio-Technica, Fostex, Ultrasone, or even my 12-ohm Sony MDR-F1. It is not "too loud" on any of them - I have very usable range on the ACM's pot (at least up to 12 o'clock). The ZxR has a "low gain" mode, and I run the Windows/ZxR control panel (I have them linked) volume at around 65%, and then adjust on the ACM accordingly. On the Z you can't turn things up nearly that high (because the system/driver volume control is all you have). I've never noticed anything deleterious about the ACM (and while I really appreciate seeing RMAA numbers, they mostly confirm that - sure you can say "it affects the signal" but it's to such a miniscule amount), nor other passive volume controls that I've used (like the Sennheiser one, I forget the model # - it isn't horribly expensive and gives you independent L/R sliders). 

Some specific points I wanted to respond to: 



			
				PurpleAngel said:
			
		

> Chances are if you connect a low impedance headphone to the SB-Z's headphone jack, you might get a bloated (louder, less detailed) bass.




Based on what? 



			
				Waro said:
			
		

> I thought one could maybe connect the headphone to the 3,5 mm jack next to the headphone jack, that's meant for active 2.1 systems. This output shouldn't get the massive 600 Ohm amplification.




Yeah you should be able to do that with easy-to-drive headphones, but don't be surprised if it sounds thin with some cans either. With ATs or Grados I wouldn't expect problems. You will also give up the "Headphone" mode using the front L/R output - whether or not this has any impact on your listening is variable (it won't matter at all for music, it may matter for gaming). 



			
				Waro said:
			
		

> Is the external controller of the Zx able to control the volume independently from Windows, or does it change the Windows volume? That could be an additional way of lowering the volume for low impedance headphones.




No - it's a passive volume control. You will have the Windows volume control, the adjustments in the drivers, the adjustments in given applications, and then that outputs to the ACM. You can set everything in Windows at 100% and then adjust with the ACM, but IME that tends to leave too little room on the control for easy-to-drive cans (low impedance does not always mean easy to drive, just to point that out). 



			
				Luckbad said:
			
		

> Regarding the ACM module, I measured into the DBpro with and without the ACM module, and the objective specs were slightly worse with the ACM than straight out the back. However, at max volume on the ACM, it was almost identical--it only seems to impact much if you reduce the volume.




Can you provide more information about how you tested this? e.g. what volume/gain setting was the card set to, where on the dial was the ACM for the results you posted, etc

I'm not trying to dispute/refute/whatever your results - just want clarification. Thanks again for doing that - I'm not surprised to see a slight loss (it's just a passive pot), and it's nice to see the loss is slight at that.


----------



## Luckbad

The posted measurement was at -4dB in RMAA (not sure of the Windows volume setting) without ACM.
  
 It was also at -4dB in RMAA at 75% pot on the ACM, so the percentage in Windows increased.
  
 At 100% volume pot, the ACM measured almost exactly the same as without it.
  
 In both cases, almost all of the ratings were "Excellent." 2 were "Very Good" without the ACM, and 3 were "Very Good" with it (Noise Level got 10dB worse, but still at inaudible levels).
  
 It's actually pretty remarkable. I couldn't really tell a difference until the measurements injected placebo into my ears.


----------



## PurpleAngel

obobskivich said:


> :Based on what?


 
  
 The SB-Z's headphone jack has a 22-Ohm output impedance, so there is a slight chance any lower impedance headphone plugged into it, might get a bloated bass.
 I plugged a lot of low impedance headphones into a SB-Z and they sounded fine to me.
 So I like to warn people that there might be a slight chance of an impedance issue with using the SB-Z's headphone jack.
 I'm guessing people would not even notice or even have a bloating issue.
 Guess I'm just trying to cover myself when advising people about sound cards, cover any minor issue they might have.


----------



## obobskivich

luckbad said:


> The posted measurement was at -4dB in RMAA (not sure of the Windows volume setting) without ACM.
> 
> It was also at -4dB in RMAA at 75% pot on the ACM, so the percentage in Windows increased.
> 
> ...




Awesome. Thanks for the extra info. 



purpleangel said:


> The SB-Z's headphone jack has a 22-Ohm output impedance, so there is a slight chance any lower impedance headphone plugged into it, might get a bloated bass.
> I plugged a lot of low impedance headphones into a SB-Z and they sounded fine to me.
> So I like to warn people that there might be a slight chance of an impedance issue with using the SB-Z's headphone jack.
> I'm guessing people would not even notice or even have a bloating issue.
> Guess I'm just trying to cover myself when advising people about sound cards, cover any minor issue they might have.




Output impedance will have an interaction with a transducer's frequency response *if* the transducer is fairly reactive (this is true for both speakers and headphones). So if you take something like a Sennheiser HD 600, changing output impedance will change frequency response (and it impacts bass because that's where the roller-coaster is; on many IEMs it impacts the HF instead). This is true of any amplifier and Zout configuration - the HD 600 will always respond to that, and their sound will change (in some cases pretty dramatically) from amplifier to amplifier. However if you have something that's fairly non-reactive (the hyperbolic extreme is a PM, which looks like a resistor to the amplifier, but something like a Grado or AT is also pretty non-reactive) the FR change in response to changes in Zout will be very minimal (if at all). There isn't a clear-cut "right or wrong" to matching Zout to a load - the IEC specification is for 120ohms, but not everyone targets that (both amp makers and headphone makers). It can also have an arguable effect on the transducer's Q (and subsequent argument about "is that audible?"), but again there isn't a clear-cut "right or wrong" because different designers aim at different targets (so you have some headphones that really are designed on the assumption of being plugged into 120ohm output, and that's "as the designer intended" wrt their FR/voicing), and then after you sort that, arguments about how different people like their sound (in other words, there isn't some sort of "objective truth" of how the system should sound; there are variables that can interact with each other to influence the sound, but that doesn't tell us "this is better than that"). None of this adds up to "higher output impedance = a bloated bass" (and what exactly are we specifying as "bloated"?) though, especially because not all loads will respond in the same way. Nor does it mean "higher output impedance = can't be used with low nominal impedance"; that's (amplifier) marketing run amok. 

This isn't saying "it makes no difference" either - it *may* make a difference, and then the question of preference comes into play. Different people will interpret their experiences differently. So some people may like the result, some may not, and there's certainly a degree of external influence in that discussion where "it increased the bass [in a specific situation]" becomes "it makes the bass bloated everywhere" can start to make sense. But I think that's too broad of a generalization for all situations - it really depends on the specific equipment as to what can be expected, but ultimately the listener has to be the judge of whether or not the end-result sounds good or bad to them.

** I have edited this post a few times for clarity and to add information **


----------



## Waro

Thanks for all the additional information!
  
 Quote:


obobskivich said:


> You can set everything in Windows at 100% and then adjust with the ACM, but IME that tends to leave too little room on the control for easy-to-drive cans (low impedance does not always mean easy to drive, just to point that out).


 
 So if i would set Windows at 50% I'd have more room on the ACM for easy-to-drive cans, right?


----------



## Luckbad

waro said:


> So if i would set Windows at 50% I'd have more room on the ACM for easy-to-drive cans, right?


 
  
 Yep, for sure. I often set it to ~25% for IEMs. Some people will tell you never to set your Windows volume to anything other than 100%, or 99%, or 80%. I've found the claims about volume to be pretty much exaggerated through objective testing. The short version is that 100% volume appears to be better most of the time, and you'll lose a couple % of performance by reducing the volume (far less than you'll ever perceive).


----------



## obobskivich

waro said:


> So if i would set Windows at 50% I'd have more room on the ACM for easy-to-drive cans, right?




Yes. Even with my Grados and ATs I don't set it as low as 50%, but that would certainly work too. Having the ability to adjust both Windows/driver volume and the ACM gives you quite a bit of flexibility. Luckbad also raises some good points in his/her post.


----------



## Waro

Nice, thanks again!


----------



## raymond555

http://www.head-fi.org/t/728124/asus-stx-ii-vs-creative-zxr/75#post_11939172


----------



## Luckbad

raymond555 said:


> http://www.head-fi.org/t/728124/asus-stx-ii-vs-creative-zxr/75#post_11939172


 
  
 Nice!


----------



## paulguru

luckbad said:


> You're reading things a bit incorrectly.
> 
> The ZxR can power anything from IEMs to 600 Ohm headphones.
> 
> ...


 
 you can use 16 ohm IEM only with ACM. 
 And ...... if you use 16ohm with a 40ohm amplifier i think the sound should be compromized. I knew the amplifier output impedance shouldn't be greater than the IEM, but should be around 1/8 than IEM impedance for optimal sound.
  
 also me can use the 700x with ZXR around 4% volume but the amplifier outpunt is over the IEM.


----------



## amraam

Hi all,
  
 Before I spend £95 on the Zx, can I check it's a suitable move?  It's time to retire my XFi Fatal1ty PCI card. I'm currently on an SLI setup and the PCI soundcard is right next to the PCIE GPU causing it to overheat under load.  I don't have any high end equipment - my speakers are old Z5400THX 5.1 and cans are HD555s.  
  
 I use my PC for music, movies and games. 
  
 Cheers!


----------



## obobskivich

amraam said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Before I spend £95 on the Zx, can I check it's a suitable move?  It's time to retire my XFi Fatal1ty PCI card. I'm currently on an SLI setup and the PCI soundcard is right next to the PCIE GPU causing it to overheat under load.  I don't have any high end equipment - my speakers are old Z5400THX 5.1 and cans are HD555s.
> 
> ...




The Zx will probably be an improvement for the HD555 since it has a built-in headamp, where the original X-Fi PCI cards do not. For the speakers it will just be different more than anything else - it doesn't have exactly the same processing modes available, but still supports 5.1 and DS3DHW/EAX thru ALchemy (I suspect just as your X-Fi does, if you're using a newer version of Windows).


----------



## Jjc27

I have the z in my personal opinion it's a good purchase mostly for gaming the music is decent at best. I have the Dayton 652 speakers with a Dayton 10" subwoofer powered by a leppai amp. It sounds great. But I mostly just game on it and it sure as heck beats the onboard audio.


----------



## PurpleAngel

amraam said:


> Before I spend £95 on the Zx, can I check it's a suitable move?  It's time to retire my XFi Fatal1ty PCI card. I'm currently on an SLI setup and the PCI sound card is right next to the PCI-E GPU causing it to overheat under load.  I don't have any high end equipment - my speakers are old Z5400THX 5.1 and cans are HD555s.
> I use my PC for music, movies and games.
> Cheers!


 
  
 The SB-Zx (or SB-Z) has a better DAC chip then the Fatal1ty.
 Also the SB-Zx (& SB-Z) is better at driving headphones, then the Fatal1ly.


----------



## amraam

Thanks all. Ordered it last night, should be here today. I ordered it to my work and I've just been told it'll be here this evening :/  I finish at 3:30 and it could be any time before 9PM   
  
 The only reason I'm ordering a new card really, is because my only free PCI slot is directly beneath my PCIE GPU so it's causing it to massively overheat. I have a free PCIE mini port above the GPU.  This card will also negate the need for a hefty ribbon cable and front IO bay (which I'll actually miss!).
  
 If I get it tonight, I look forward to fitting it!


----------



## BrockSamson

Three questions for you guys...
  
 1: My current setup is an SB-Z, Windows and SB-Z control panel set to 5.1 speakers, "play stereo mix to digital output" enabled, and using optical output to my Modi 2 Uber / Magni 2 Uber stack. I get audio, but my currently played games don't really have 3D sound so I just wanted to confirm that I have everything configured correctly.
  
 2: When using this setup, the Bass toggle and bar in SBX Pro Studio is disabled. SBX Surround and that horrific Crystalizer still work but I'm kind of curious why bass get's disabled. Assume it has to do with optical out and the stereo mix, but is there any way to adjust bass short of using the EQ? The simple toggle and bar were really convenient when switching between games and music.
  
 3: Is there a way that I can enable the center/subwoofer output on the card itself without changing anything about how the headphones are working? I was thinking about picking up a Buttkicker Gamer 2 for my chair. Mixer/output settings somewhere? Perhaps something to do with that bass management/redirection option? Has somebody else has already done something similar and knows for sure? (I don't have any other audio devices to plug in right now so it will take a few days to borrow something and check myself)


----------



## PurpleAngel

brocksamson said:


> Three questions for you guys...
> 
> 1: My current setup is an SB-Z, Windows and SB-Z control panel set to 5.1 speakers, "play stereo mix to digital output" enabled, and using optical output to my Modi 2 Uber / Magni 2 Uber stack. I get audio, but my currently played games don't really have 3D sound so I just wanted to confirm that I have everything configured correctly.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Did you disable the motherboard's on-board audio, in the BIOS, when you installed the SB-Z?
  
 I'm not that knowledgeable about settings for the Sound Blaster Z, but something tells me the "Play Stereo Mix to Digital Output" is not part of the SBX Headphone surround sound feature?
  
 You might consider to also ask your Sound Blaster questions on this thread.
 http://forums.creative.com/forumdisplay.php?f=6


----------



## obobskivich

brocksamson said:


> Three questions for you guys...
> 
> 1: My current setup is an SB-Z, Windows and SB-Z control panel set to 5.1 speakers, "play stereo mix to digital output" enabled, and using optical output to my Modi 2 Uber / Magni 2 Uber stack. I get audio, but my currently played games don't really have 3D sound so I just wanted to confirm that I have everything configured correctly.


 

No this isn't entirely right - when SB-Z is set to "Headphones" it will do all the behind-the-scenes trickery for Windows to be "in 5.1" - you just set it to "Headphones" and that is taken care of behind the scenes. 

The "Stereo mix to digital output" is required to use an external DAC - that's correct to be set. With the card itself set to 5.1 you may only get the front L/R channels from some material though, as opposed to everything. Set the card to "Headphones" or "Stereo", leave the "stereo mix to digital" engaged, and you're set. IME I've not noticed any difference between "Headphones" and "Stereo" and I think all it's doing is setting relays on the card to enable either the front L/R analog or headphone analog outputs - if you're bypassing those it doesn't seem to make any difference IME. But if you want to be "extra certain" just leave it in "Headphones" mode and Windows will "believe" it is outputting to 5.1, and the Sound Blaster is downmixing to stereo. 



> 2: When using this setup, the Bass toggle and bar in SBX Pro Studio is disabled. SBX Surround and that horrific Crystalizer still work but I'm kind of curious why bass get's disabled. Assume it has to do with optical out and the stereo mix, but is there any way to adjust bass short of using the EQ? The simple toggle and bar were really convenient when switching between games and music.




Because you're in 5.1 - it wants to use the 5.1 crossover settings, which are accessed from Speaker Settings. Since you're only taking the L/R output those channels are unavailable for your playback equipment. Set the card to "Stereo" or "Headphones" and the Bass slider will become available again (and this works via analog or digital out). If your DAC could take DTS or AC-3 (it can't) you could alternately just send out the 5.1 digital signal (go into Encoder and its there) and then adjust bass via the Speaker Settings. 



> 3: Is there a way that I can enable the center/subwoofer output on the card itself without changing anything about how the headphones are working?




No. The card (no sound card, really) is capable of doing an active 2.1 output - you need to take a stereo signal out from the card and cross it over externally, the Buttkicker will provide this functionality on its own, and there are also some headphone amps (e.g. Fischer Amps) that have "shaker output" connections as well. If your DAC or pre-amp has multiple sets of outputs you could also go from there, but that won't be an active crossover (but honestly you don't explicitly need such with headphones and a TT shaker). 




> I was thinking about picking up a Buttkicker Gamer 2 for my chair. Mixer/output settings somewhere? Perhaps something to do with that bass management/redirection option? Has somebody else has already done something similar and knows for sure? (I don't have any other audio devices to plug in right now so it will take a few days to borrow something and check myself)




You'd want to hook up the line out from the DAC into the Gamer 2 and then feed the output from Gamer 2 into the headphone amp, and it will provide the crossover you need. See Buttkicker's quickstart guide for proper connections: http://www.thebuttkicker.com/downloads/manuals/BK-GR2_QSG-Outlines-Web.pdf 





purpleangel said:


> Did you disable the motherboard's on-board audio, in the BIOS, when you installed the SB-Z?




:rolleyes:



> I'm not that knowledgeable about settings for the Sound Blaster Z, but something tells me the "Play Stereo Mix to Digital Output" is not part of the SBX Headphone surround sound feature?




 "Play Stereo Mix to Digital Output" is Creative's workaround to device selection limits imposed in Vista - under Vista and later you can only have a single audio device selected as the output, and digital and analog outputs from a card are treated separately. In order to enable full DSP functionality, the Creative drivers will just pass the "analog mix" to the digital output, and you can get whatever DSP, EQ, etc features you want. If you didn't engage this, you have to enable the Z's digital output as the output device (in Windows), and some functionality will be unavailable. I don't know on the SoundCore parts if this mix is required for THX/SBX Surround, but on the X-Fi it is required for full CMSS and EAX functionality via digital output. 

Asus, Razer, Auzen, etc have implemented their own workarounds to this change in Windows Audio, which don't always mirror Creative's options or settings (e.g. my Razer AC-1 you just "enable digital output" in the drivers).


----------



## paulguru

using muses02 opamp the headphone amplifier gain will improve ?


----------



## BrockSamson

Thanks for the replies guys. I think I have it a little better now. I left Windows at 5.1 but changed the SBZ control panel to Headphones. I have the bass control back and it makes sense how it works, so I'm assuming I'll have better surround in games. I also did one other thing while trying to hack an audio output for the Buttkicker.
  
 I ENABLED my Realtek onboard. I went to the "What you hear" recording channel, selected "Listen to this device", and pointed it at the Realtek speaker channel. It works, with one caveat. There is a small but noticeable and annoying delay in the audio going to the 2.1 speakers. Maybe 1/4 to 1/3 second. Going to look into this more in case there is a way to reduce processing and speed it up a bit. Seems like there should be a better way to do this though, short of adding a splitting between my DAC and AMP, as I fear that feedback would greatly reduce the quality of the audio I spent so much time and money improving :/


----------



## obobskivich

brocksamson said:


> Thanks for the replies guys. I think I have it a little better now. I left Windows at 5.1 but changed the SBZ control panel to Headphones. I have the bass control back and it makes sense how it works, so I'm assuming I'll have better surround in games. I also did one other thing while trying to hack an audio output for the Buttkicker.
> 
> I ENABLED my Realtek onboard. I went to the "What you hear" recording channel, selected "Listen to this device", and pointed it at the Realtek speaker channel. It works, with one caveat. There is a small but noticeable and annoying delay in the audio going to the 2.1 speakers. Maybe 1/4 to 1/3 second. Going to look into this more in case there is a way to reduce processing and speed it up a bit. Seems like there should be a better way to do this though, short of adding a splitting between my DAC and AMP, as I fear that feedback would greatly reduce the quality of the audio I spent so much time and money improving :/




A splitter should not have any audible impact on the sound quality, I'd say try it - high quality splitters are only a few bucks, and if you really hate it (for whatever reason) then you can go back and futz about with the ganged audio cards.


----------



## Nikolasi

Hallo
  
 I have SBZ and I me looking ASUS STX II upgrade for music that is good or bad..maybe something better then STX II ?
  
 I have free only one PCIE slot: http://i.imgur.com/7PVA7Jm.jpg


----------



## BrockSamson

obobskivich said:


> A splitter should not have any audible impact on the sound quality, I'd say try it - high quality splitters are only a few bucks, and if you really hate it (for whatever reason) then you can go back and futz about with the ganged audio cards.


 
  
 The problem there is that I think the Buttkicker is a single channel. I could split just the left or right channel from the Modi but then I could get lopsided shaker response or headphone performance/quality. Alternatively if I split off both channels from the Modi, then used another splitter to combine that into a single shared mono channel for the shaker, Id essentially be crossing the left and right channels and ruining the headphone audio.
  
 I was thinking a better route may be an optical spitter and a Fiio D3, but that only goes to 20hz (whereas the shaker and the soundcard go to 10hz) and there could potentially be timing issues there as well. This is also assuming that the shaker can work with the line level output of the D3.
  
 I'm going to try a few more settings on my SBZ tonight as well. I was trying to use the 3rd center/subwoofer jack, but it may be possible that the front channel or headphone outputs still work with optical. I also heard that I can maybe set SBZ control panel to stereo speakers instead of headphones to get the same audio mix to my headphones, and this could potentially allow the other outputs to work. I'll find out tonight.


----------



## Nikolasi

I have SBZ and I'm looking for STX II or something better then STX II ?
  
 I have one free PCIE slot in my case


----------



## obobskivich

brocksamson said:


> The problem there is that I think the Buttkicker is a single channel. I could split just the left or right channel from the Modi but then I could get lopsided shaker response or headphone performance/quality. Alternatively if I split off both channels from the Modi, then used another splitter to combine that into a single shared mono channel for the shaker, Id essentially be crossing the left and right channels and ruining the headphone audio.
> 
> I was thinking a better route may be an optical spitter and a Fiio D3, but that only goes to 20hz (whereas the shaker and the soundcard go to 10hz) and there could potentially be timing issues there as well. This is also assuming that the shaker can work with the line level output of the D3.
> 
> I'm going to try a few more settings on my SBZ tonight as well. I was trying to use the 3rd center/subwoofer jack, but it may be possible that the front channel or headphone outputs still work with optical. I also heard that I can maybe set SBZ control panel to stereo speakers instead of headphones to get the same audio mix to my headphones, and this could potentially allow the other outputs to work. I'll find out tonight.




It is single channel, but that shouldn't be a problem - it's not like it will incur a delay for the audio into the headphones or anything. Your "use another splitter to combine" thing will not work (http://www.rane.com/note109.html), you would need a proper summer. You can throw an active xover in there, but there is unlikely to be a good idea as you probably don't want the headphones' response rolled off - you just want the TT re-enforcing low-end. Optical splitters, IME, are of dubious build quality - this isn't to say they hurt the signal, just that you may go through a round or two of returns to get one that's put together properly. 

WRT other stuff on the Z itself - you cannot have the front L/R output and the headphone jack active at once, but you can have either of those jacks (headphone or front L/R) active alongside optical - if the card is set to "speakers" it will output via front L/R + optical (with "play digital mix" enabled), if it is set to "headphones" it will output via headphone + optical (again with "play digital mix" enabled). The volume control for the system will impact the analog output in either case (to adjust digital level you go into the mixer and draw down the left/right for the digital output) - in theory you could connect the TT's amplifier to either the headphone or front L/R output directly from the Z, but if the TT only takes a monophonic input you will still need a summer if you absolutely must see both left/right connected to the TT. 

IME I have never noticed a difference in "the mix" switching between speakers and headphones, when using digital out - of course you can't directly compare that using the analog outputs of the card, because you're comparing its headphone amp to other devices. I don't know if this also applies with ALchemy in-use; I don't use ALchemy. It should make no difference either way for stereo music or software audio though. 

I wouldn't worry too much about the claims of 10 or 20 Hz response - it is unlikely that you will have any material encoded that low, played back that low, etc. 




nikolasi said:


> I have SBZ and I'm looking for STX II or something better then STX II ?
> 
> I have one free PCIE slot in my case




Isn't STX an Asus card?


----------



## Nikolasi

Yes.that is Asus card.


----------



## BrockSamson

nikolasi said:


> I have SBZ and I'm looking for STX II or something better then STX II ?
> 
> I have one free PCIE slot in my case


 
  
 Any reason in particular why you want the STX II?
  
 It's a new setup for me but so far I am very pleased with the Soundblaster Z -> 5.1 mixed to stereo over optical -> Modi 2 Uber -> Magni 2 Uber. Music sounds amazing and I can still get all the processing features for games or other purposes.


----------



## BrockSamson

obobskivich said:


> WRT other stuff on the Z itself - you cannot have the front L/R output and the headphone jack active at once, but you can have either of those jacks (headphone or front L/R) active alongside optical - if the card is set to "speakers" it will output via front L/R + optical (with "play digital mix" enabled), if it is set to "headphones" it will output via headphone + optical (again with "play digital mix" enabled). The volume control for the system will impact the analog output in either case (to adjust digital level you go into the mixer and draw down the left/right for the digital output) - in theory you could connect the TT's amplifier to either the headphone or front L/R output directly from the Z, but if the TT only takes a monophonic input you will still need a summer if you absolutely must see both left/right connected to the TT.


 
  
 Man, thanks a ton. I guess I assumed it was more complicated than it was after trying the center/subwoofer out and not getting anything. Sure enough, the headphone jack still works even when doing stereo mix to optical port and this is exactly what I need. Wish I figured this out before spending a few hours trying every other possible combination of connections but in the end what counts is that it will work. My wife would like you to know that she does not appreciate the fact that I can now justify $140 on what is essentially a chair vibrator. For anyone else finding this bit of the thread in the future...
  
 Windows set to 5.1 speakers, 100% volume, Soundblaster Z control panel set to headphones and enable "Play stereo mix to digital output"
  
*Optical out* -> Modi 2 Uber -> Magni 2 Uber -> Headphones
*Headphone out* -> optional volume control (if you don't want 100% volume) -> Buttkicker (or other consumer of analog stereo signal)


----------



## obobskivich

Glad to hear it worked out.


----------



## PurpleAngel

nikolasi said:


> I have SB-Z and I'm looking for STX II or something better then STX II ?
> 
> I have one free PCIE slot in my case


 
  
 I replaced my Essence STX (original) with an Audio-GD NFB-15, external DAC/amp, around $316 (total).
 http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/Headphoneamp/NFB1532/NFB15.32EN.htm
 You could connect it to the SB-Z's optical port.


----------



## genclaymore

nikolasi said:


> I have SBZ and I'm looking for STX II or something better then STX II ?
> 
> I have one free PCIE slot in my case


 
 You could keep that Sound blaster Z and get a external dac amp and connect the sound blaster Z optical into say a Audio-GD NFB11 and send the gaming functions of the SBZ thru optical using the send stereo mix thru optical check box in advance tab. Which will allow you to have the gaming functions of the Z and the audio performance of a external dac amp. It pretty much what I did when I got a cheap SBZ recently. It doesn't have to be a Audio-GD NFB 11, it could be a Schiit Modni 2 dac and a magni 2 hp amp.


----------



## Nikolasi

Well I have Presonus HD7 headphones and Takstar 2050 and Logitech Speaker System Z906.I need buy and speaker with very good audio qallity performance,becouse Logitech Speaker System Z906 is very low.


----------



## PurpleAngel

nikolasi said:


> Well I have Presonus HD7 headphones and Takstar 2050 and Logitech Speaker System Z906.I need buy and speaker with very good audio quality performance,because Logitech Speaker System Z906 is very low.


 
  
 What exactly do you have the Z906 connected to and how do you have them connected?


----------



## BrockSamson

Is it safe to use a splitter to combine the 3.5mm stereo headphone out (which is amplified) into a single mono RCA? Perhaps something like this 3.5mm Stereo to RCA jack adapter http://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=7147
  
 I'm forced to use the 3.5mm stereo headphone out on my soundcard to connect the Buttkicker Gamer 2, but it only has a single line level RCA input to be used with the center/sub channel in a speaker setup. It comes with a 3.5mm stereo to dual RCA adapter cable which I can use to connect either the L or R channel, which works and is how I have it set up now, but I would hate to be missing some of the bass that could potentially be on the other channel. In theory a splitter would connect them, but since the headphone out is amplified and I have Windows set to 100% volume I'm not sure if it would blow up the soundcard or something. What do you think?


----------



## NoOneLt

Hey BrockSamson, use something like 1 image, then plug your headphones into 1 of 3,5 and use other with image 2 to your ButtKicker. Headphone output of ZxR should be max 150mV and you will use line level input witch should be something around 1 to 5V, so HP out can even be not enough to run it..


 Be patient, maybe someone will have other opinion.


----------



## BrockSamson

noonelt said:


> Hey BrockSamson, use something like 1 image, then plug your headphones into 1 of 3,5 and use other with image 2 to your ButtKicker. Headphone output of ZxR should be max 150mV and you will use line level input witch should be something around 1 to 5V, so HP out can even be not enough to run it..
> 
> 
> Be patient, maybe someone will have other opinion.


 
  
 I'm not using the 3.5mm out for my headphones. I'm using optical out to a Schiit stack. However, for SBX Surround to sound correct in games I have the Soundblaster Z control panel set to Headphones mode. This disables all the 3.5mm outputs on the soundcard except for the headphone jack. I can use a 3.5mm stereo to dual RCA adapter cable to connect either the L or R channel RCA to the Buttkicker, which is how I have it set up now and it works, but I'm only able to connect the L or R cable since the Buttkicker has a single RCA input. In theory an RCA splitter will allow me to connect both the L and R RCA channels into the single RCA jack on the Buttkicker, but I don't know how combining the L and R channels could effect the Soundblaster Z or the amplifier that's running the headphone out jack.


----------



## obobskivich

brocksamson said:


> Is it safe to use a splitter to combine the 3.5mm stereo headphone out (which is amplified) into a single mono RCA?




NO. I already provided a link as to why this cannot be done (re-read my reply to you asking this question 4 days ago: http://www.head-fi.org/t/623079/creative-sound-blaster-new-series-z-zx-zxr/3015#post_11989873). You cannot use a passive splitter to combine signals - it is dangerous to all involved equipment. You would need an active crossover and/or summer (most active xovers have a summer built-in) if you're really adamant about getting "the other channel" but again, as I said previously, this will probably be for the worst for headphone audio because of the low-cut into the cans. IOW you will very likely want the full-range signal going into the cans, and then the TT is just an "effect" that re-enforces the low-end. Having it on a single channel shouldn't be too much of a problem, since it isn't actually reproducing anything audible, its just a TT. In theory you could run an active xover (with built-in summer) off the line output and then not connect the headphone amp to the main level out, so you're just using the xover as a low-pass filter, and then play with dialing it into whatever feels best.


----------



## BrockSamson

obobskivich said:


> NO. I already provided a link as to why this cannot be done (re-read my reply to you asking this question 4 days ago: http://www.head-fi.org/t/623079/creative-sound-blaster-new-series-z-zx-zxr/3015#post_11989873). You cannot use a passive splitter to combine signals - it is dangerous to all involved equipment. You would need an active crossover and/or summer (most active xovers have a summer built-in) if you're really adamant about getting "the other channel" but again, as I said previously, this will probably be for the worst for headphone audio because of the low-cut into the cans. IOW you will very likely want the full-range signal going into the cans, and then the TT is just an "effect" that re-enforces the low-end. Having it on a single channel shouldn't be too much of a problem, since it isn't actually reproducing anything audible, its just a TT. In theory you could run an active xover (with built-in summer) off the line output and then not connect the headphone amp to the main level out, so you're just using the xover as a low-pass filter, and then play with dialing it into whatever feels best.


 
 The headphones are running on an external dac/amp via the optical output so they will not be affected by any of this.
  
 Even if I tapped into that signal path I would still have the same problem: I need to convert L and R stereo channels into mono. Using only the L or R channel works but of course it's missing half the sound and it really does make a difference. Loading a youtube video for iRacing or any other game results in very obvious differences. A car hits the bumps on the left side and the chair rumbles surprisingly realistically. Hit the bumps on the right and there is no shaking at all since the R channel cable is dangling off the desk.
  
 I've started looking for active crossovers but they all seem far too expensive for what I want to do. I don't need any fancy EQ or other features, the Buttkicker has it's own high and low pass filters, so I just need to mix from stereo to mono. I don't really know what I'm looking for though, so maybe it's the wrong stuff. Is there a cheap device that will do this?


----------



## obobskivich

brocksamson said:


> The headphones are running on an external dac/amp via the optical output so they will not be affected by any of this.




That doesn't matter. You cannot use a y-splitter (keyword: splitter) to combine two signals. 



> Even if I tapped into that signal path I would still have the same problem: I need to convert L and R stereo channels into mono. Using only the L or R channel works but of course it's missing half the sound and it really does make a difference. Loading a youtube video for iRacing or any other game results in very obvious differences. A car hits the bumps on the left side and the chair rumbles surprisingly realistically. Hit the bumps on the right and there is no shaking at all since the R channel cable is dangling off the desk.
> 
> I've started looking for active crossovers but they all seem far too expensive for what I want to do. I don't need any fancy EQ or other features, the Buttkicker has it's own high and low pass filters, so I just need to mix from stereo to mono. I don't really know what I'm looking for though, so maybe it's the wrong stuff. Is there a cheap device that will do this?




You need a summer or a crossover - you cannot use a splitter. An active crossover will start around $40-50 in pricing, and really esoteric ones can go into the hundreds of dollars. Many AV preamps and receivers can also do bass management to varying extents.


----------



## BrockSamson

Would something like this BEHRINGER MICROMIX MX400 do it? http://www.amazon.com/Behringer-MX400-BEHRINGER-MICROMIX/dp/B000KGYAYQ
  
 Seems like I could input the L and R channels into 2 of the inputs, then have it mix to the single mono output. Or would they cancel out or do some other funkiness?


----------



## obobskivich

That would probably work, if I'm understanding their documentation right, but you'd have to dial the levels in to taste; not impossible but could be tedious. Bit cheaper than an active crossover too.


----------



## BrockSamson

Dialing it in should be easy. Equal parts L and R channel to give me a tactile response regardless of which side the bass is on. I might give it a shot.


----------



## obobskivich

brocksamson said:


> Dialing it in should be easy. Equal parts L and R channel to give me a tactile response regardless of which side the bass is on. I might give it a shot.




Well, if the faders are that perfectly matched, but yeah you have the idea.


----------



## Nikolasi

genclaymore said:


> You could keep that Sound blaster Z and get a external dac amp and connect the sound blaster Z optical into say a Audio-GD NFB11 and send the gaming functions of the SBZ thru optical using the send stereo mix thru optical check box in advance tab. Which will allow you to have the gaming functions of the Z and the audio performance of a external dac amp. It pretty much what I did when I got a cheap SBZ recently. It doesn't have to be a Audio-GD NFB 11, it could be a Schiit Modni 2 dac and a magni 2 hp amp.


 
 I see now.HI-FI people recommed to me Musical Fidelity V90 DAC* * & Musical Fidelity V90-HPA i see a lot people love Schiit Modni 2 and now i see experiance users got Audio-GD NFB.
 What is the best of those three dac/amps for gaming and music?


purpleangel said:


> What exactly do you have the Z906 connected to and how do you have them connected?


 
 I me conected  Z906 on 3.5 jacks for 5.1 from SBZ and also with optical *OUT* from SBZ for DD and dts only oprtical *IN* is free on SBZ.
 I have also free optical out on motherboard Asus Maxumus VII Hero by Realtek 1150.


----------



## genclaymore

First most it depends on the type of sound that your looking for, Two it also depends on your budget.  That's the two most important answer's.


----------



## Nikolasi

genclaymore said:


> First most it depends on the type of sound that your looking for, Two it also depends on your budget.  That's the two most important answer's.


 
 I'm looking for powerfull and sound quality such as a professional studio.


----------



## genclaymore

If you want something that all in one unit that wont take up much space then the Audio-GD unit's like the NFB11 would be a good choice for you. Besides the usb input's, it has the optical which you will need and then coaixal.  Then check the send stereo mix thru optical in the advance tab in the creative panel. It will then send the SBZ DSP effects and settings thru to the optical. That way you can have both gaming effects and improved audio. There are cheaper option's like finding a used Modni 1 optical, or getting a Modni2 uber which has optical and then pairing it with a magni2. Both of devices are smaller then the Audio-GD unit's.


----------



## Nikolasi

I me now uninstal Realtek 1150 codec and disable from bios and now I me got new sound from SBZ.This sound now is right sound.So what will be different if i put Schiit Modni 2 or any Audio-GD unit sound will be more poweful or something like hI-FI ?


----------



## Nikolasi

I mede test EAX 5.0 with Sound Blaster Z by Creative ALchemy.But sound is some...


----------



## Nikolasi

I was use wrong settings...Now it is possible to hear the difference sound:


----------



## dmbr

For the life of me I cannot get the SBZ to route audio to my external DAC via optical out.

Could someone please provide some instructions?


----------



## PurpleAngel

dmbr said:


> For the life of me I cannot get the SB-Z to route audio to my external DAC via optical out.
> Could someone please provide some instructions?


 
 Did you disable the motherboard's on-board audio, in the BIOS, when you installed the SB-Z?
  
 Is the SB-Z set for 2-channel output (speaker or headphone) and any Dolby setting not enabled.
 A normal external DAC only takes in a 2-channel PCM (uncompressed) digital audio signal.
 One of the features of Dolby is DDL (Dolby Digital Live), which can compress up to 6-channels of digital audio, which is one of the features the SB-Z software comes with.
 Compression is need to send up to 6-channel of audio thru S/PDIF (optical & coaxial), so if the SB-Z is sending a compressed digital signal, thru the optical, the external DAC will not be able to un-compress it, so the DAC can not read the digital audio signal.
 So make sure any Dolby setting in the SB-Z's control panel is set to off.


----------



## obobskivich

dmbr said:


> For the life of me I cannot get the SBZ to route audio to my external DAC via optical out.
> 
> Could someone please provide some instructions?




Go back a few pages - I've outlined this before. It has nothing to do with onboard audio, BIOS/UEFI settings, Dolby, etc - there's a tick-box for "Play stereo mix to digital out" that needs to be enabled in the drivers, *or* you need to set the digital out as the default output device within Windows. The former is the ideal, and there's no reason to do the later that I'm aware of (it will defeat/eliminate many of the card's features, but given that it's available as an option, I'm sure there's some specific scenario where it's useful).


----------



## ValantisMP

anyone bought an soundblaster omni recently? hows that compare to the Z?


----------



## genclaymore

I used to have a sound blaster omni but i have not compared it to the Z as i haven't had both at the same time but i still remember my time i spent with the omni when i had it to send it dsp to my dac thru "What u hear" which wasn't perfect of course, But I found it to work really well at the time. It doesn't have a couple of settings that the sound blaster Z has such as the Send Stereo mix through Optical*"that does what it actually says"*.
  
 I found the analog quality at the time to be all right when I tried the SB omni plugged into a little dot MK II 2.0  Tube amp. Of course it was no comparison to the dac I was using at the time which was the NFB15.32 as a dac The SB omni uses the same headphone amp IC that the Sound blaster Z uses. Of course it didn't do a good job with the beyerdynamic T90 in compared to my amp, but I expected that to happen. As the sound was off and bland when plugged directly into the headphone out on the omni. With the Little dot MK2 in the omni's RCa out's. It did all right as a source of course not perfect to what I was used to. Headphones that are easier to drive will work just fine on the sound blaster omni's headphone out. But nothing that needs some power to drive and of course not 600ohm headphones well perfectly anyhow, as the SB omni hp amp IC doesn't provide enough power @600 ohms to even do them justice,maybe for a temp until you get something that does.
  
 The only reason to get the omni now a days is if you need something that affordable thats external that has 5.1 connections when you either don't have room inside your computer, or using a laptop. Other wise the sound blaster Z would be the better choice as usually it can be found cheaper then the omni depending on which country you are in. Some times ebay and even amazon has good deals on the sound blaster Z. I also think the omni was EOL and replaced with a omni model that's for recording, not sure as I seen alot of that model then the actual standard omni model for a long time, before i start seeing the omni again. But lately if it just for headphone usage creative has other devices for external usage that would be more worth it then the omni that's in the same price range.
  
 The SB omni volume knob also mutes the audio when it is pressed down, and the omni is small i would say near the side of a PlayStation 3 controller if not a tad longer and wider. It will come with a RCA to 3.5 adapter to turn that RCA into 3.5 so you can use it with speakers. I didn't run into any other problems while using it, outside of the issue of it software, where it seems it was meant to have  send stereo mix to optical but instead had two DTS encoding settings one being labeled and the other being labeled like the SBZ send stereo mix to optical but really was the same DTS encoding setting. I doubt they got around to fixed it as i asked them about it, and they said it meant to be like that which I find to be silly to have the same setting twice but mislabeled.


----------



## PurpleAngel

valantismp said:


> Anyone bought an Sound Blaster Omni recently? hows that compare to the Z?


 
  
 The SB-Z comes with a nice CS4398 DAC chip 
 The Omni does not


----------



## genclaymore

The omni is really a souped up X-FI HD 5.1 usb with some changes like Software and the same headphone amp IC as the SBZ but other then that its the same as the X-FI HD 5.1 usb  which i forgot to mention in my post. Just tad smaller.


----------



## ValantisMP

Really helpfull answers guys thank you very much, 
  
 for now i will use it with m-audio av40 (monitor's) later i will buy headphones of course.
  
 1 more question recently bought gigabyte r9 380, and if i buy the SB-Z it will right under the GPU and will ''block'' the airflow from the 1st fan is that okay?


----------



## genclaymore

As long the gpu still getting air flow you be fine, as I had on many times had sound cards directly under the gpu blocking one of the fans and that didn't give me any problems. Other then the gpu being a tad hotter if any at all. Tho I usually had cases that had fans in the case doors.


----------



## Jazic

I have kind of advanced question... Hopefully I can get some info from this thread.. thanks in advance by the way!
  
  
 I have the ZxR but only use it via Optical/Digital Out into my Schiit stack.
  
 I was wondering if there was any difference between "Headphone" and "Stereo Direct" with sound quality.... 
  
  
 I understand I'm bypassing the onboard dac and amp by using an external dac/amp. I was just wondering if there was extra processing with "Headphone" mode that could be effecting quality at all vs the untouched "Stereo Direct" mode in a strictly digital sense.
  
 I'm thinking that with "Headphone" mode selected games will take advantage of the onboard sound processing but bypass it when out of a game listening to music the same as if I was using "Stereo Direct".
  
 The reason I ask is I want to be able to shift between gaming using Headphone mode with no effects (other than slight EQ) but still maintain 100% quality while listening to music as though I had Stereo Direct enabled. I hate switching back and forth because I'm lazy. 
  
 Hopefully this makes sense.
  
 Thanks!!!


----------



## obobskivich

jazic said:


> I have kind of advanced question... Hopefully I can get some info from this thread.. thanks in advance by the way!
> 
> 
> I have the ZxR but only use it via Optical/Digital Out into my Schiit stack.
> ...




Headphone mode disables the multi-ch analog outputs and enables the onboard headphone amp (you can hear it cycle the relays if your computer is fairly quiet); stereo direct disables multi-ch and locks the output to 24/192 (and 100% volume iirc) to the stereo output (via the RCAs - headphone out is disabled). I don't recall if stereo direct allows the digital output to function or not (I've rarely used it, truth be told). As far as any sort of "quality difference" or "processing difference" I've never heard, observed, etc any difference whatsoever on either ZxR or Recon3D switching between these modes, for music or gaming (believe it or not) - most games these days use software audio (so there is no "onboard processing" taking place as witch older hardware and systems) and the ZxR is just acting as an output device, unless you're using any of its post-processing (e.g. EQ).


----------



## Jazic

Awesome! Thanks for the reply. 

I've been fiddling with it for ages and can't hear a difference but was wondering. I only really care for the eq and sometimes the smart volume for movies and TV shows. 

Pretty much any mode of output you select will down mix to stereo optical out. Also any processing you select also outputs to digital out. 

I've been playing around with the options to try and get rid of the hard left and right channel shifts on games. The surround processing works but it often makes the audio sound like a tin can. 5.1 down mixed to stereo might work better but I'll have to mess around and see. 

I am using my Chord Hugo as a dac with my Lyr 2 and it has a channel crossover feature that blends the L/R channel by a small amount but its enough to shave off the hard pans in games. I'll have to disable it outside of games because it destroys soundstage depth and width with music but it does ethereal exact opposite in games. It makes it sound more realistic and wider.


----------



## obobskivich

jazic said:


> Awesome! Thanks for the reply.
> 
> I've been fiddling with it for ages and can't hear a difference but was wondering. I only really care for the eq and sometimes the smart volume for movies and TV shows.
> 
> Pretty much any mode of output you select will down mix to stereo optical out. Also any processing you select also outputs to digital out.




It will "downmix" to stereo when selected for stereo or "stereo mix to digital out" - it can send multi-channel via DTS or Dolby if your external decoder supports that, but I wouldn't suggest that with headphones unless it can do better 5.1 -> headphone processing than the card. 



> I've been playing around with the options to try and get rid of the hard left and right channel shifts on games. The surround processing works but it often makes the audio sound like a tin can. 5.1 down mixed to stereo might work better but I'll have to mess around and see.




The "Bass" and "Crystalizer" options may help with the "tin can" thing. Probably still won't be great for music, but may help with gaming.



> I am using my Chord Hugo as a dac with my Lyr 2 and it has a channel crossover feature that blends the L/R channel by a small amount but its enough to shave off the hard pans in games. I'll have to disable it outside of games because it destroys soundstage depth and width with music but it does ethereal exact opposite in games. It makes it sound more realistic and wider.




If any of your games have a "Headphone" mode I would encourage you enable that too.


----------



## paulguru

Anyone can say me if the bloated bass of zxr can fix with internal EQ ?


----------



## genclaymore

Paul you can swap out the op-amps to another pair if you don't like the way your ZXR sound to another pair of op-amps that has the type of sound that you want. It most likey the two JRC's that are in the I/V op-amp sockets on the ZXR if you are just using the headphone amp output on it. If your using the RCA then both the I/V and buffer is used and it could be in your case that you just don't like the jrc if that what the ZXR is using paired with the buffer op-amps.
  
 But  I will have to find a guide for you or maybe some one here can help you that have done it on their ZXR as I don't have a ZXR in front of me to see which op-amp is which, I did find a picture but I can't tell if it's JRC21140 or JRC2114D.


----------



## Zyker

I've got a quick question!
  
 I'm currently running an ASUS Xonar DS.  I know it's not the best card. Do you think I'd see gains if I switched to a Sound Blaster Z?  My current setup has be plugging my headphones (Audio Technica A900x) into the wired remote control for my 2.1 speakers (Creative I-TRIGUE L3800), which is hooked into the soundcard.  I'd love to hook my headphones directly to the soundcard, since there is sometimes some "interference" that can be heard when the sound is too quiet with the headphones.
  
 I mainly use my headphones and listen to various music genres and play games.
  
 Thanks!


----------



## Nikolasi

zyker said:


> I've got a quick question!
> 
> I'm currently running an ASUS Xonar DS.  I know it's not the best card. Do you think I'd see gains if I switched to a Sound Blaster Z?  My current setup has be plugging my headphones (Audio Technica A900x) into the wired remote control for my 2.1 speakers (Creative I-TRIGUE L3800), which is hooked into the soundcard.  I'd love to hook my headphones directly to the soundcard, since there is sometimes some "interference" that can be heard when the sound is too quiet with the headphones.
> 
> ...


 
 If you like in games bass and crystal sound get SBZ.
 SBZ is better for games then ASUS DS,DX,DG...but for music more bass....better look for any poverful external DAC/AMP.On SBZ only bass is powerful and that cant be nice for music.


----------



## PurpleAngel

paulguru said:


> Anyone can say me if the bloated bass of ZxR can fix with internal EQ ?


 
  
 What headphones are you using with the SB-ZxR?
 Did you disabled the motherboard's on-board audio, in the BIOS, before installing the SB-ZxR and Creative software?


----------



## Zyker

Wow.  I just got it installed a little while ago and the difference between the SBZ and the Xonar DS is _amazing_.  The sound is beautiful and clear. Thanks for your reply!


----------



## DangerClose

zyker said:


> Wow.  I just got it installed a little while ago and the difference between the SBZ and the Xonar DS is _amazing_.  The sound is beautiful and clear. Thanks for your reply!


 
  
 Interesting since I so often read SBZ sounds better in games but Xonars sound better for music, including the DS/DSX.  Are there any more comparisons you can make between their sound differences?
  
 Oh, your SBZ is more clear because you had your DS plugged into a wireless remote for speakers.  Yeah, that might make a difference for clarity. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 I was going to add that even headphones that "don't need an amp" can benefit from an amp, and the SBZ is a lot more powerful than the DS, so I thought that was going to be the reason for the sound difference.


----------



## PurpleAngel

dangerclose said:


> Interesting since I so often read SB-Z sounds better in games but Xonars sound better for music, including the DS/DSX.  Are there any more comparisons you can make between their sound differences?
> Oh, your SBZ is more clear because you had your DS plugged into a wireless remote for speakers.  Yeah, that might make a difference for clarity.
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 The SB-Z comes with a better DAC chip, then the Xonar DS.
 Also I'm fairly sure the SB-Z's dedicated headphone jack has a much lower output impedance 
 then the Xonar DS's line-output jack, that also pretends to be a headphone jack.


----------



## genclaymore

I own a asus xonar DSX my self that sits in my closet, I also have owned a DG and a DGX. The main thing that the DSX has over the SBZ is a op-amp socket which allows you to swap op-amps around changing the sound signature of the sound card to fit the type of sound that you want.The DS/DSX doesn't have a headphone amp but a headphone buffer. The Asus Xonar DG/DGX is the one that has a headphone amp in it. The DS/X Doesn't have dolby headphone which is useful in games, the DG/X does but doesn't have a op-amp socket. 
  
 I also own a sound blaster Z while I have used the analog output a couple of times, the SBZ wins over the DS/X due to it having a headphone amp thats decent enough and SBX surround which is very useful and work really well in games. When it comes to sound performance it depends on one thing,Are you going to roll op-amps on the DS/X. If not then the SBZ would be the better choice as it audio performance is better then the DS/X with the stock jrc op-amps installed. If you do think you will want to swap op-amp's then the DS/X will come out on top due to being able to take out the Jrc's and install op-amps such as the LT1469,LT1489 or even the LME48960's etc. If you need a headphone amp and the virtual headphone software then the sound blaster Z would be the better option but only if you planning to use headphones. Of course the sound blaster z will be better if your playing older games which are EAX which would do alot better then the asus emulation of eax. But both has trade offs.


----------



## Zyker

Yeah, my headphones were plugged into a wired controller that is for the speakers (because there was no dedicated headphone out on the DS, and I didn't want to be crawling to the back of my computer to be changing the plugs every time I wanted to use headphones).  When no sound was playing, I would notice a slight buzzing noise.  More annoying than anything, I suppose.  However, the speakers were hooked directly to the Xonar DS.
  
 Now, comparing the two, there's definitely a difference between the sound quality of the cards.  The clarity was the first difference I noted, right off the bat when the computer started.  I then switch the sound over to the headphones (yay for a dedicated jack!) and started listening to some music.  It was incredibly clear, with a much more defined bass and an overall "brighter" quality to it.  Put simply, it just sounds a LOT better and I absolutely love it.
  
 I have yet to play a game with this card but I'll do it tonight (Fallout 4) and can report back, if you're interested.


----------



## el-jorge

My Auzentech prelude is about to die. I probably going to replace it with the ZxR. I now have a Bose Companion 20 hooked to my soundcard. But I'm thinking of replacing those also. What is the best way to go with this soundcard? Some active studio speakers, computer speakers (like my current Bose), or something else, like an amplifier and some speakers?


----------



## obobskivich

el-jorge said:


> My Auzentech prelude is about to die. I probably going to replace it with the ZxR. I now have a Bose Companion 20 hooked to my soundcard. But I'm thinking of replacing those also. What is the best way to go with this soundcard? Some active studio speakers, computer speakers (like my current Bose), or something else, like an amplifier and some speakers?




Any of the above will work - it can provide analog or digital outputs, and from there you can hook-up whatever you want. The external control box only controls headphone volume (its a pot-in-a-box), so if you go active monitors that lack onboard volume controls you're either using the software volume controls (not necessiarily a bad thing) or you'll want to find a stand-alone passive preamp (e.g. Schiit SYS, Emotiva ControlFreak, CIA VPC3) to put in-between to give you volume control. If you keep the Bose or go with some other multimedia speaker they will likely have their own volume control, same as if you go with an outboard integrated amp (or similar) and passive speakers. It really would come down to your budget, preference, and how much room you have for gear as to what you should get; it's a really variable question.


----------



## dmbr

purpleangel said:


> Did you disable the motherboard's on-board audio, in the BIOS, when you installed the SB-Z?
> 
> Is the SB-Z set for 2-channel output (speaker or headphone) and any Dolby setting not enabled.
> A normal external DAC only takes in a 2-channel PCM (uncompressed) digital audio signal.
> ...


 Ugh.

I bought the damn card to utilize the card's surround sound features on my external DAC.

I'm screwed, then?

DH through optical to my DAC worked fine with my STX...I'm really puzzled here.


----------



## PurpleAngel

dmbr said:


> I bought the damn card to utilize the card's surround sound features on my external DAC.
> I'm screwed, then?
> DH through optical to my DAC worked fine with my STX...I'm really puzzled here.


 
  
 Just to make sure we are on the same page.
 The STX comes with Dolby Headphone, were as the SB-Z comes with SBX Headphone.
  
 I'm not an expert on then Sound Blaster stuff, more like just A know It All.
 So limited experience.
  
 Have you tried posting your Sound Blaster questions on this forum?
 http://forums.creative.com/forumdisplay.php?f=6


----------



## kazcou

dmbr said:


> Ugh.
> 
> I bought the damn card to utilize the card's surround sound features on my external DAC.
> 
> ...


 
  
 What you are using as external DAC ? So it will be more easy for us to tell you what it can handle.
  
 Also Dolby Headphones is a way to emulate surround sound with only 2 channels ! Is more a software emulation.
 On some software like PowerDVD, WinDVD, lavfilter, foobar200 there is a option or a plugin for active it.


----------



## dmbr

kazcou said:


> What you are using as external DAC ? So it will be more easy for us to tell you what it can handle.
> 
> Also Dolby Headphones is a way to emulate surround sound with only 2 channels ! Is more a software emulation.
> On some software like PowerDVD, WinDVD, lavfilter, foobar200 there is a option or a plugin for active it.


 I'm using a Xonar Essence One Muses Edition.

If I understand correctly, you're actually mistaken about DH--Dolby Virtual Home Theatre (I think it's called?) which is used in some of the newer Xonars does indeed just take stereo output and make it sound "surround sound-ish", but Dolby Headphone processes up to 6 (5.1) channels and outputs true "virtual surround" in stereo.


----------



## kazcou

dmbr said:


> I'm using a Xonar Essence One Muses Edition.
> 
> 
> 
> If I understand correctly, you're actually mistaken about DH--Dolby Virtual Home Theatre (I think it's called?) which is used in some of the newer Xonars does indeed just take stereo output and make it sound "surround sound-ish", but Dolby Headphone processes up to 6 (5.1) channels and outputs true "virtual surround" in stereo.



 


Your DAC is not compatible with a real 5.1 format like dolby digital or DTS.
I do not think I am mistaken. Since both use the same technologie : varying delays and phase-shifts between each channel. And that can be done with a software. Dolby Virtual Home Theatre is more for speakers and Dolby Headphone is for headphones.


----------



## obobskivich

dmbr said:


> I'm using a Xonar Essence One Muses Edition.
> 
> If I understand correctly, you're actually mistaken about DH--Dolby Virtual Home Theatre (I think it's called?) which is used in some of the newer Xonars does indeed just take stereo output and make it sound "surround sound-ish", but Dolby Headphone processes up to 6 (5.1) channels and outputs true "virtual surround" in stereo.




No he's right - Dolby Headphone is a simulacrum for "surround" on headphones. It can take 5.1 (or 7.1) input or it can take stereo input and uses Pro Logic II to generate your "true 5.1" output from stereo. The Sound Blaster doesn't use Dolby though - it uses SBX, which can accomplish the same end result. Either of these can be output as PCM that your stereo DAC will handle, neither will output a 5.1 bitstream. There is a comparison on YT between Dolby and SBX - they are slightly different sounding as they use different response filters and make different assumptions about the HRTF to generate the simulacrum. iirc that Xonar could also connect via USB and act as its own controller, and the Sound Blaster is redundant as a result.


----------



## el-jorge

obobskivich said:


> Any of the above will work - it can provide analog or digital outputs, and from there you can hook-up whatever you want. The external control box only controls headphone volume (its a pot-in-a-box), so if you go active monitors that lack onboard volume controls you're either using the software volume controls (not necessiarily a bad thing) or you'll want to find a stand-alone passive preamp (e.g. Schiit SYS, Emotiva ControlFreak, CIA VPC3) to put in-between to give you volume control. If you keep the Bose or go with some other multimedia speaker they will likely have their own volume control, same as if you go with an outboard integrated amp (or similar) and passive speakers. It really would come down to your budget, preference, and how much room you have for gear as to what you should get; it's a really variable question.


 
 Thanks for your answer. As a follow up question, how can I connect the Bose to the ZxR. The Bose has a minijack to connect to the pc. I see that the ZxR has standard RCA connectors for speakers?


----------



## genclaymore

the ZXR will come with a Dual RCA to 3.5 mm cable in the box.


----------



## obobskivich

genclaymore said:


> the ZXR will come with a Dual RCA to 3.5 mm cable in the box.




+1. That cable is more of an adapter if I remember right, but you could buy an RCA to TRS cable thats long enough to run to the Bose in one shot too (they're only a few bucks).


----------



## Sting3r

Is there any way to lower the gain of the SBz? It makes my 30 ohm headphones loud as ****...


----------



## genclaymore

The Z and ZX uses is dynamic hp amp ic and is design to work by lowering and raising the volume which raises and lower the power being sent to the card if I got that right. The only other options you  got is, you can either lower the volume,Swap headphones to ones that will work better with the card, or even swap cards or move external and use optical from the Z. 
  
 The only card in the sound blaster Z series that gives you the option to change the gain settings is the SB ZXR, They could had atleast used a hp amp IC on the Z basic model and not the same hp amp ic from the recon3D.


----------



## Sorpanino

SB ZXR is what i have and i like it!


----------



## PurpleAngel

sting3r said:


> Is there any way to lower the gain of the SBz? It makes my 30 ohm headphones loud as ****...


 
  
 The SB-Z does not come with a gain adjustment 
 But you could get a FiiO A3 (E11K) headphone amplifier, $60, and connect it to the SB-Z Front Speaker jack and the headphones to the A3.
 The SB-Z can not send it's SBX Headphone surround sound thru the Front Speaker jack, but with music you have no need for the surround sound feature.


----------



## Sorpanino

I am upgrading to schiit and a ice from my soundcard, byebye!


----------



## obobskivich

sting3r said:


> Is there any way to lower the gain of the SBz? It makes my 30 ohm headphones loud as ****...




It isn't likely because of their impedance - my Recon3D had no problems driving Grados, Audio-Technicas, etc quite well. Volume control when in headphone mode is direct volume adjustment to the IC amp (it uses the same Maxim IC as the Recon3D; the card itself, afaik, does not dynamically adjust its power draw on the system though - you're either adjusting digital volume control from the DSP or the IC has a volume control thats being adjusted via the software (I haven't looked that IC's datasheet in a while)). That said, I don't think you'll generally be going much over ~10% with more sensitive headphones. 

The ZxR uses a TI IC that has variable gain options, as well as the software volume control AND the external pot-in-a-box ACM unit (Zx has the ACM unit too) which can be used for additional attenuation. You could buy such an external volume control if you wanted; Koss and Sennheiser both make variations on the same idea.


----------



## Nikolasi

SBZxR have different sound signature "colour" then SBZ ?


----------



## kazcou

It is me or no 176400Hz sampling rate available ?


----------



## jincuteguy

Anyone knows if you can get Virtual Surround Sound out from the Optical Out of any of the Z / Zx / ZxR soundcard?


----------



## Nikolasi

jincuteguy said:


> Anyone knows if you can get Virtual Surround Sound out from the Optical Out of any of the Z / Zx / ZxR soundcard?



 
Yes you can turn on SBX via Optical Out ,but you cant control volume via windows but you can only on aplication what you use...set a volume


----------



## obobskivich

jincuteguy said:


> Anyone knows if you can get Virtual Surround Sound out from the Optical Out of any of the Z / Zx / ZxR soundcard?




Yes. Select "play stereo mix to digital out" and leave the Windows default to "Analog Out - Z/Zx/ZxR" - all functionality will work, including "Headphone Mode", SBX, EQ, ALchemy, volume control, etc. If you need discrete 5.1, go into the encoder settings and enable DTS or Dolby (they're largely similar, and the choice depends heavily on what your downline equipment can do), but this isn't "Dolby Headphone" or similar (although if you have a receiver/decoder that can do Dolby 5.1 -> Dolby Headphone, that could be used with the Sound Blaster's Dolby output; it will very likely come down to personal preference if you like that better than SBX).


----------



## PurpleAngel

jincuteguy said:


> Anyone knows if you can get Virtual Surround Sound out from the Optical Out of any of the Z / Zx / ZxR sound card?


 
  
 Yes, the Z/Zx/ZxR can send the Z series's SBX Headphone surround sound thru the optical port.


----------



## blinkstar

How would the Z card pair with my 32 ohm DT 990s?


----------



## PurpleAngel

blinkstar said:


> How would the Z card pair with my 32 ohm DT 990s?


 
  
 The SB-Z's headphone jack has an output impedance of 22.5-Ohms.
 Which would not really be normally recommended for 32-Ohm headphones, but I'm guessing the Beyer will still do well.


----------



## blinkstar

Thanks for responding, PurpleAngel!
  
 This brings me to my next question which I should really just make my own thread about but I'll ask here first:
  
 I currently have an Auzentech Prelude sound card. It's a nice card, never have any problems with it--the only thing it is missing is sbx surround sound for headphones, which I have heard and prefer to cms-3d or whatever the older vss mode is, which is what my Prelude has.
  
 I could buy the sbx software directly from creative and use it with my existing card, or
  
 I could buy the Soundblaster Z, used, off craigslist, which of course, gives me the card along with the software (hopefully).
  
 It would mean swapping out my Prelude for the Z of course.
  
 What advantages would I get going with the Z card over just the software? I have an external 02 amp already which is okay, not great but okay, if that makes any difference ...


----------



## PurpleAngel

blinkstar said:


> Thanks for responding, PurpleAngel!
> This brings me to my next question which I should really just make my own thread about but I'll ask here first:
> I currently have an Auzentech Prelude sound card. It's a nice card, never have any problems with it--the only thing it is missing is sbx surround sound for headphones, which I have heard and prefer to cms-3d or whatever the older vss mode is, which is what my Prelude has.
> I could buy the sbx software directly from creative and use it with my existing card, or
> ...


 
  
 I would say to go ahead and replace the Prelude with the SB-Z and plug the Beyers straight into the SB-Z's headphone jack.
 You would also have the option of plugging the O2 into the SB-Z's front speaker jack, would not get any surround sound, but might work well for music.


----------



## blinkstar

Do you mind telling me your reasoning? What advantages do you see with buying the Z card?


----------



## bcschmerker4

@PurpleAngel  Concerning the Creative Laboratories® SB1500, what's the _highest_-impedance headphone ye've run successfully this model?  Given its "unregulated" headphone drive, I have reason to doubt the survival of any headphone below 200Ω, such as my current Plantronics® GAMECOM® 380; the SB1500 seems to want at least a full-on ENG/EFP headphone such as would be used inline in a 600Ω television or radio station audio feed.


----------



## obobskivich

blinkstar said:


> Thanks for responding, PurpleAngel!
> 
> This brings me to my next question which I should really just make my own thread about but I'll ask here first:
> 
> ...




I'd probably go for the SB-Z. Here's my reasoning (I don't pretend to speak for someone else; he/she may have an entirely different line of reasoning):

- Auzentech no longer exists, and the Prelude hasn't received driver updates in quite a while. There are some features that were made available for X-Fi (and also on SoundCore (Recon and Z)) that the Prelude doesn't get, like the "Play Stereo Mix" loop for Vista/7 audio (and also IIRC the Prelude doesn't get Dolby + DTS in Vista/7; it only gets DTS because of Auzen's weird licencing arrangement). 
- The Z has a built-in headphone amplifier. I don't own a Z, but I own both a Recon3D and a ZxR, and the headphone amps on both are quite competent, and I have no complaints even with low impedance headphones (e.g. Audio-Technica, Grado, Fostex). 
- I personally despise the X-Fi "mode switching" thing and would prefer to have everything available all at once, as opposed to doing the "switch" which not infrequently will crash the drivers and require a restart. 
- The beam/array mic is a nice add-on.

Some caveats to the Z vs the Prelude:
- The Prelude does 7.1, which the newer cards don't (they only do 5.1). 
- The Prelude does both coaxial and TOSlink digital I/O, while the newer cards only do TOSlink (you can convert this to coax but that's additional hardware). 
- Prelude (and all X-Fi) have drivers that work in Windows XP; the SoundCore is (iirc) only officially supported in Windows 7 and above (I've gotten my Recon3D working in Windows Vista and 7 without problems). 


Other stuff to think about:
- Prelude is a PCI card; Z is a PCIe x1 card. A lot of newer motherboards don't have PCI slots at all, if you have Prelude installed you obviously have a PCI slot, but ensure you also have an x1 PCIe slot available to put the Z into.


----------



## RugbyPlayer

I just picked up this card, i was wanting to use it for gaming with my Maddog headphones, but the issue im having is when i plug my headphones into the ACM module, i get no headphone out, actually no audio out period, this is with switching it in the software to headphones, what gives?


----------



## PurpleAngel

blinkstar said:


> Do you mind telling me your reasoning? What advantages do you see with buying the Z card?


 
  
 The SB-Z card comes with SBX Headphone surround sound.
 So far I've never heard of the older Creative Lab's audio processor (X-Fi), used in the Prelude, supporting the newer SBX Headphone software.
 but i will check on that.


----------



## PurpleAngel

bcschmerker4 said:


> @PurpleAngel  Concerning the Creative Laboratories® SB1500, what's the _highest_-impedance headphone ye've run successfully this model?  Given its "unregulated" headphone drive, I have reason to doubt the survival of any headphone below 200Ω, such as my current Plantronics® GAMECOM® 380; the SB1500 seems to want at least a full-on ENG/EFP headphone such as would be used inline in a 600Ω television or radio station audio feed.


 
  
 I've plug headphones from 32-Ohms to 600-Ohms into the SB-Z card's headphone jack, this was well over a year ago that I tested the SB-Z for a short time.
 So headphones under 200-Ohms work fine with the SB-Z headphone output.
 I like recommending the SB-Z sound card and 50-Ohm Sennheiser HD558 headphones, good bang for the buck combo.
 Would not normally recommend using the SB-Z for driving 600-Ohm headphones, but it will work.
 Guess I'll have to reinstall the SB-Z and plug 600-Ohm headphone into it, because I can't remember how loud the 600-Ohm headphones could get.


----------



## teamrushpntball

Is there any benefit to getting the Zxr over the Z if I plan to solely use the card for sbx headphone via optical to an external dac/amp (magni+asgard)?

Assuming using the schiit stack, would I be better off using line out straight to the amp skipping the external dac and relying solely on the zxr dac?

Pretty much asking am I better off going z > modi > as gard or zxr > asgard? My headphone time is split 50% gaming, 20% movies and 30% music.


----------



## PurpleAngel

teamrushpntball said:


> Is there any benefit to getting the Zxr over the Z if I plan to solely use the card for sbx headphone via optical to an external dac/amp (magni+asgard)?
> 
> Assuming using the schiit stack, would I be better off using line out straight to the amp skipping the external dac and relying solely on the zxr dac?
> 
> Pretty much asking am I better off going z > modi > as gard or zxr > asgard? My headphone time is split 50% gaming, 20% movies and 30% music.


 
  
 For optical output, the ZxR or Zx, offer no advantages over the Z.
 What headphones are you going to be using?


----------



## teamrushpntball

Just placed an order for some he400i's through amazon but am also going to demo some audeze phones and senn hd650 tomorrow morning.

Recently sold my hd700's and akg k712 for being a bit even with a tube amp.

Thanks for the input on the soundcards, kinda what I suspected but wasn't sure.


----------



## obobskivich

rugbyplayer said:


> I just picked up this card, i was wanting to use it for gaming with my Maddog headphones, but the issue im having is when i plug my headphones into the ACM module, i get no headphone out, actually no audio out period, this is with switching it in the software to headphones, what gives?




Is the ACM plugged in correctly? And is the system volume set to a non-zero value? (You will have to set the system volume and then use the ACM's volume control as a fader; the ACM controller doesn't affect software levels).



purpleangel said:


> The SB-Z card comes with SBX Headphone surround sound.
> So far I've never heard of the older Creative Lab's audio processor (X-Fi), used in the Prelude, supporting the newer SBX Headphone software.
> but i will check on that.




Any HD-Audio audio interface (in theory) can run the Sound Blaster X-fi MB3 software package, which includes SBX. I don't know, however, if they have some sort of internal lock-out that prevents it from running on X-Fi or other soundcards (e.g. if it would refuse to run on a Xonar), but in principle it is a pretty versatile piece of software that could be run on a wide array of modern audio interfaces.


----------



## dmbr

obobskivich said:


> Is the ACM plugged in correctly? And is the system volume set to a non-zero value? (You will have to set the system volume and then use the ACM's volume control as a fader; the ACM controller doesn't affect software levels).
> Any HD-Audio audio interface (in theory) can run the Sound Blaster X-fi MB3 software package, which includes SBX. I don't know, however, if they have some sort of internal lock-out that prevents it from running on X-Fi or other soundcards (e.g. if it would refuse to run on a Xonar), but in principle it is a pretty versatile piece of software that could be run on a wide array of modern audio interfaces.


 As a matter of fact, I couldn't get MB3 to work properly on my Xonar Essence One


----------



## obobskivich

dmbr said:


> As a matter of fact, I couldn't get MB3 to work properly on my Xonar Essence One




Interesting, and good to know. I was wondering if it was really so versatile as Creative claimed ("any HD audio compliant device") since that'd also include a lot of their competitors' hardware, and potentially their own older hardware as well.


----------



## RamGuy

Has there been any updates to SBX and it's DSP? Or does it still sound very hallow compared to CMSS:3D?


----------



## Fegefeuer

What do you mean as in hollow? How is SBX hollow? What products did you try?


----------



## RamGuy

I purchased the Creative ZxR a while back to replace my Creative Titanium HD as it had on-board headphone amp to drive my Sennheiser HD 650 better than my Titanium HD. Ended up returning it after a week as the sound with SBX 3D / surround visualisation sounded horrible to my ears. Watching videos on YouTube felt like they talked through a tin-can and the audio while gaming felt really hollow compared to the CMSS:3D from the Titanium HD card.

Ended up with returning it and getting a Asus Xonar Essence One external DAC with amplifier instead, and now I'm using the Titanium HD for DSP (CMSS:3D) with optical to the Essence One for DAC and amplification.


EDIT:

I wonder if I might actually purchase that software package from Creative and run it on my Titanium HD, or the on-board audio card on my Rampage IV Extreme motherboard? Doesn't really matter if I use the Titanium HD or the on-board as I only use optical out so all the audio card is doing is offering DSP for 3D / surround visualisation in games and movies. That's purely software, but the only way to get CMSS:3D is through a X-Fi audio card so... But that software package should be able to offer the full SBX software suit of the newer Sound Blaster series if I'm not entirely mistaken but Creative does not list what kind of hardware that is supported so who knows what would actually work.


----------



## Fegefeuer

That software is not the real deal. Forget about it. Don't waste your money on SBX if you didn't like it. I personally and a few others find it to be the "truest" to the source of all VST, some say even at the expense of  a bit "immersion" but I personally only consider CMSS-3D/A3D the true (but forgotten) king of immersion. 
  
 With Oculus, Vive, PSVR, DTS:X, Atmos and their HP editions the future is pretty clearly moving away from speaker room HRTF. 
  
 Keep Titanium HD, use it for CMSS-3D to optical. Save up for a Bifrost Multibit and a Vali 2 or Bifrost MB + Valhalla 2 or even higher. That's where your HD 650 will rock your socks again.


----------



## RamGuy

Hmm.. I'm starting to wonder if CMSS:3D has ever worked over optical? I have never paid much attention to the Creative Console Launcher control panel and everything. But now that I'm trying to compare between my Titanium HD running optical to my Asus Essence One using CMSS:3D vs Creative X-Fi MB3 (SBX Pro Studio) vs Dolby Home Theater v4 (using modified drivers giving my on-board full support for HTv4) I've noticed something rather disturbing when running optical from my Titanium HD....
  
 I'm currently running optical from my Titanium HD into my Xonar Essence One and upon testing CMSS:3D within the Console Launcher it seems to work as the surround test is working. But when I try to utilise the EQ, X-Fi Crystalliser and every other option within the Creative Console Launcher it doesn't affect audio whatsoever. Playing back something on YouTube (Chrome), a video (MPC-HC), playing music (iTunes) the audio is not getting affected by anything I try to change within the launcher. And if I try to do the CMSS:3D test while playing back audio in iTunes, Chrome or whatever the test wont output any audio.
  
  
 If I do the same testing when running my headphones directly from the minijack of the Titanium HD everything gets affected by the settings. It might seem like I've been in placebo-land all along and none of the Titanium HD DSP has been actually working using optical? Even with the "play stereo mix using digital output" enabled?
  
  
  
 Using optical from the on-board audio and changing things through Dolby Home Theater v4 clearly affects all the audio. And same goes for using the X-Fi MB3 software. What's even more funny is the fact that the X-Fi MB3 software also works over optical from my Titanium HD while the Titanium HD's own software does not seem to do anything.


----------



## PurpleAngel

ramguy said:


> Hmm.. I'm starting to wonder if CMSS:3D has ever worked over optical? I have never paid much attention to the Creative Console Launcher control panel and everything. But now that I'm trying to compare between my Titanium HD running optical to my Asus Essence One using CMSS:3D vs Creative X-Fi MB3 (SBX Pro Studio) vs Dolby Home Theater v4 (using modified drivers giving my on-board full support for HTv4) I've noticed something rather disturbing when running optical from my Titanium HD....
> I'm currently running optical from my Titanium HD into my Xonar Essence One and upon testing CMSS:3D within the Console Launcher it seems to work as the surround test is working. But when I try to utilise the EQ, X-Fi Crystalliser and every other option within the Creative Console Launcher it doesn't affect audio whatsoever. Playing back something on YouTube (Chrome), a video (MPC-HC), playing music (iTunes) the audio is not getting affected by anything I try to change within the launcher. And if I try to do the CMSS:3D test while playing back audio in iTunes, Chrome or whatever the test wont output any audio.
> If I do the same testing when running my headphones directly from the minijack of the Titanium HD everything gets affected by the settings. It might seem like I've been in placebo-land all along and none of the Titanium HD DSP has been actually working using optical? Even with the "play stereo mix using digital output" enabled?
> Using optical from the on-board audio and changing things through Dolby Home Theater v4 clearly affects all the audio. And same goes for using the X-Fi MB3 software. What's even more funny is the fact that the X-Fi MB3 software also works over optical from my Titanium HD while the Titanium HD's own software does not seem to do anything.


 
  
 My two cents.
 Disable the motherboard's on-board audio, in the BIOS.
 Remove the X-FiMB3 software
 Remove the Dolby Home Theater V4 software.
 Return the Asus Essence One.
 Buy an external headphone amplifier and connect it to the RCA line-outputs on the Ti-HD (Titanium-HD).
 The Titanium-HD can send CMSS-3D Headphone surround sound thru it's RCA jacks.
 Read up and ask on this thread about headphone amplifiers for use with the HD650.
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/197776/sennheiser-hd650-impressions-thread
  
 To the best of my knowledge, the Ti-HD provides a fairly good DAC function.


----------



## Fegefeuer

worked over optical for me for many years and still does. Equalizer, Crystallizer, just everything, as it actually should.


----------



## obobskivich

fegefeuer said:


> worked over optical for me for many years and still does. Equalizer, Crystallizer, just everything, as it actually should.




+1. CMSS/SBX and all of the other processing features have never been a problem for me via digital out, and that's on Audigy 2 ZS, X-Fi, Recon3D, and ZxR.


----------



## NoOneLt

Hey guys, can someone explain how ZxR "stereo direct" mode works? I read somewhere that it bypasses "everything" and outputs 192 KHz through RCA's. Is that true? But then what about bit's, 24? And what about upsampling? If most music is 44,1KHz/16bit then do stereo direct involves unnecessary upsampling?
  
 In my situation i use Foobar and ASIO, if i play 44,1KHz/16bit in stereo direct, what exactly happens? Or if i play game?
  
 Though in windows set-up i set 44,1KHz/16bit, does stereo direct bypass this setup?
  
 Thanks in advance!


----------



## obobskivich

noonelt said:


> Hey guys, can someone explain how ZxR "stereo direct" mode works? I read somewhere that it bypasses "everything" and outputs 192 KHz through RCA's. Is that true? But then what about bit's, 24? And what about upsampling? If most music is 44,1KHz/16bit then do stereo direct involves unnecessary upsampling?
> 
> In my situation i use Foobar and ASIO, if i play 44,1KHz/16bit in stereo direct, what exactly happens? Or if i play game?
> 
> ...




My understanding is that it bypasses/defeats all of the various post-processing features on the card (e.g. SBX, Crystalizer, EQ, volume control, etc), but I'm not sure what it does to sample rate (e.g. if it fixes to 24/192 or fixes to whatever Windows is set to). That said, no matter what your system will have SRC taking place at some level (since not all of the audio on your machine, in various applications, etc is identical depth and sample rate), and generally modern soundcards do a good enough job as to be transparent at that task. I would think it safe to regard the feature as similar to many receivers' "direct" mode that bypasses all of their associated decoder features.


----------



## germanium

obobskivich said:


> My understanding is that it bypasses/defeats all of the various post-processing features on the card (e.g. SBX, Crystalizer, EQ, volume control, etc), but I'm not sure what it does to sample rate (e.g. if it fixes to 24/192 or fixes to whatever Windows is set to). That said, no matter what your system will have SRC taking place at some level (since not all of the audio on your machine, in various applications, etc is identical depth and sample rate), and generally modern soundcards do a good enough job as to be transparent at that task. I would think it safe to regard the feature as similar to many receivers' "direct" mode that bypasses all of their associated decoder features.


 
  Yes it is supposed to allow playback of 24 bit 192KHz content at full resolution & bypass all windows & driver processing other than volume control.


----------



## NoOneLt

germanium said:


> Yes it is supposed to allow playback of 24 bit 192KHz content at full resolution & bypass all windows & driver processing other than volume control.



And if i play 44.1/16 throug ASIO, it is upsampled or not?


----------



## germanium

noonelt said:


> And if i play 44.1/16 throug ASIO, it is upsampled or


 
 ASIO also bypasses the windows audio subsystem as well but in some cases as a result you can also lose volume control so in those cases you need to have an external volume control. Some applications that use ASIO will have their own volume control though which you can select to use. It generally is not the default setting though so you have to go into the application settings for the volume control & select the applications volume control rather than windows volume control in order to control the volume from the computer.


----------



## SkogKniv

Picked up the SB Zx on sale and a second hand pair of Sennheiser HD 280 Pro. My untrained ears are very happy with the improvement over onboard audio.


----------



## 422561

Can the SBX effects, in particular the headphone surround, be output via RCA on the ZxR to an amp? Would this be better than outputting via the line out on the Z?


----------



## Fegefeuer

reddfour said:


> Can the SBX effects, in particular the headphone surround, be output via RCA on the ZxR to an amp? Would this be better than outputting via the line out on the Z?


 
  
 No, that's not possible, however passing all that through optical works.
  
 SBZ -> optical -> DAC/AMP like Modi 2 Uber/Vali 2


----------



## 422561

I thought of that but couldn't find a cheap dac amp with optical in that also had an output impedance lower than 4 Ohm. The only one was the Fiio E17 but I don't really want one with a built in battery.


----------



## obobskivich

reddfour said:


> I thought of that but couldn't find a cheap dac amp with optical in that also had an output impedance lower than 4 Ohm. The only one was the Fiio E17 but I don't really want one with a built in battery.




Line output impedance should not be zero, and it also doesn't generally matter as long as it's not insanely high (e.g. higher than load) where you can get into slight issues. But Fegefeuer is right - you can't send SBX Headphone via the RCA output. You can send SBX for 2ch speakers via RCA out though, or use the built-in headphone amp (to get SBX Headphone), or use TOSlink output into a DAC (if you want SBX headphone into a line source).


----------



## NCSUZoSo

Just got my V5-OPA-D review samples in from Burson Audio!  The immediate difference I noticed was the clarity and I wasn't expecting much of anything since I am already running pretty nice op-amps.  I wish I had their V5-OPA-S so I could run their whole line at once.
  

  
 Will be posting a formal review on Head-Fi in about a week on these dual slot op-amps!


----------



## Jubijub

Hello everyone,
  
 I want to upgrade from my onboard audio to discrete card + DAC (I use win10)
  
 I play games so I want good positional audio, and from tests, it seems CMMS-3D and SBX are the best (to my taste at least).
  
 I was therefore thinking to take a Sound Blaster Z --> Optical SPDIF --> DAC/AMP, and use SBX for positional audio.
 My understanding is that I don't care about the ZxR as the upgraded DAC would be bypassed anyway since I output the sound via SPDIF.
  
 Is my logic correct ?
  
 Other question : is there any benefit in taking the SB Z vs using any card + the SBX Pro software ? Is it easier to setup SBX, or does it offer extra parameters in presence of the card ?


----------



## bcschmerker4

ncsuzoso said:


> Just got my V5-OPA-D review samples in from Burson Audio!  The immediate difference I noticed was the clarity and I wasn't expecting much of anything since I am already running pretty nice op-amps.  I wish I had their V5-OPA-S so I could run their whole line at once.
> 
> 
> 
> Will be posting a formal review on Head-Fi in about a week on these dual slot op-amps!


 
 Thanks for the installation photo; I'm curious about the fit for a full bag of Sparkos® SS3602 hybrid dual op amps (a lot more compact than these Bursons, so probably enough room for the stock RFI shield) on an SB1530 - I have four shortlisted for my own Asus® XONAR® STX' I-V's, along with two of some variation on the SE5532 for the line-level buffers.


----------



## 422561

Would I be right in saying that the Z would be a bad choice with 32 Ohm and 18 Ohm IEMs?


----------



## Alexandrus

Why would it ?


----------



## 422561

alexandrus said:


> Why would it ?


 
  
 Due to the output impedance of the Z being 22 Ohm officially but measured as being even higher than that by some users. For a 32 Ohm IEM you would want a max output impedance of 4 Ohm.


----------



## Alexandrus

Well, I have the Z as my sound card and I tried some IEMs, they worked fine.
 Though, to be honest, I have no idea if they sounded as good as they can, I have no idea how they SHOULD sound.


----------



## NCSUZoSo

bcschmerker4 said:


> Thanks for the installation photo; I'm curious about the fit for a full bag of Sparkos® SS3602 hybrid dual op amps (a lot more compact than these Bursons, so probably enough room for the stock RFI shield) on an SB1530 - I have four shortlisted for my own Asus® XONAR® STX' I-V's, along with two of some variation on the SE5532 for the line-level buffers.


 
  
 You have VERY little room to work with if you want to use the EMI shield.  Look at the link below in the next paragraph, shows a picture of my previous setup.  I tried many different types of op-amps and many would not fit under that shield.  However I finally landed on what you see in my profile which did all fit.  The issue is not only the height going up, but the room around the socket is extremely tight.  If you use anything that isn't the exact width of a DIP-8 socket it will most likely not fit unless you use an adapter to raise it above the caps (I did this for a few).
  
 As impressive as these Burson V5-OPA-D's are, they have yet to blow away my _4x ADA4627-1BRZ setup (keep in mind I am only talking about the two blue/rear sockets, there is another SOIC-8 on the underside).  However as I mentioned I am still running AD8597's along with them, so I am going to see if Burson Audio will send out their V5-OPA-S to run with these to get the full picture of what they are offering here.  Don't get me wrong, the Bursons are better, but being a student I am not sure if I can justify the cost difference vs my Analog Devices op-amps that are ~$50 for four of them + a dual DIP-8 adapter and I believe Burson is going to retail these around $100-$150.  _
  
_I will get a clearer picture when I start doing A/B testing though.  Also I just recently bought an oscilloscope (analog/digital hybrid Hitatchi V1065), so I can actually examine the output of the L/R channel and take measurements. _
  
_**Edit: just got an email from Burson Audio letting me know once I review the samples I am free to keep them  _


----------



## serman005

ncsuzoso said:


> You have VERY little room to work with if you want to use the EMI shield.  Look at the link below in the next paragraph, shows a picture of my previous setup.  I tried many different types of op-amps and many would not fit under that shield.  However I finally landed on what you see in my profile which did all fit.  The issue is not only the height going up, but the room around the socket is extremely tight.  If you use anything that isn't the exact width of a DIP-8 socket it will most likely not fit unless you use an adapter to raise it above the caps (I did this for a few).
> 
> As impressive as these Burson V5-OPA-D's are, they have yet to blow away my _4x ADA4627-1BRZ setup (keep in mind I am only talking about the two blue/rear sockets, there is another SOIC-8 on the underside).  However as I mentioned I am still running AD8597's along with them, so I am going to see if Burson Audio will send out their V5-OPA-S to run with these to get the full picture of what they are offering here.  Don't get me wrong, the Bursons are better, but being a student I am not sure if I can justify the cost difference vs my Analog Devices op-amps that are ~$50 for four of them + a dual DIP-8 adapter and I believe Burson is going to retail these around $100-$150.  _
> 
> ...


 

 That is a suh-weet photograph--thanks for that.


----------



## SCHYNEYDER

How much better the ZXR is compared to Asus Xonar D2X ?
  
 % better for music, gaming and movies/tv series ? 
  
 thanks


----------



## obobskivich

jubijub said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> I want to upgrade from my onboard audio to discrete card + DAC (I use win10)
> 
> ...




Yes your logic is correct; if you're just after digital out and don't care about the headphone amp, analog inputs/outputs, mic preamp, etc the Z will be equivalent as a digital source. Recon3D as well (they're all SoundCore 3D; the Recon3D has THX in lieu of SBX - I've never done any aggressive side-by-side comparisons (and currently my PC with Recon3D is not hooked up), but they don't sound as far as apart as say, CMSS-Headphone and SBX, or Dolby Headphone and SBX; they seem similar). 

I don't know about the SBX downloadable software vs the Z - if I remember right the downloadable software is limited by the capabilities of the device you use it on, so if that device isn't as full featured as the Z that might be a problem, and beyond that I have no idea as far as CPU usage, quality, performance, etc. Certainly the "big selling point" for the Sound Blaster cards is the hardware, so it may be quite similar if you already have a nice set of hardware and its drivers play nice with the SBX downloadable software. 



reddfour said:


> Would I be right in saying that the Z would be a bad choice with 32 Ohm and 18 Ohm IEMs?




Never tried it with IEMs, but both my Recon3D and ZxR do fine enough with my 12 ohm MDR-F1 and 25 ohm TH-900. You may get hiss if the IEMs are *super* sensitive, but I've never heard hiss (from either card) on any of my full-size cans (even ESW9). On the 12 ohm cans I find I'm putting the volume control to a significantly higher position, but there isn't audible distortion or clipping - I think its just a lack of significant gain into lower impedance. Again I'd expect the IEMs to be somewhat more sensitive than the F1 or TH-900, so you probably won't even notice needing to put the volume control higher (also that "put the control higher" is relative to my other cans, so if you're *just* using your single pair of IEMs, there's no comparison, so whatever it is, it is, and life is happy). 



reddfour said:


> Due to the output impedance of the Z being 22 Ohm officially but measured as being even higher than that by some users. For a 32 Ohm IEM you would want a max output impedance of 4 Ohm.




Says what? The whole "rule of 4" or "rule of 8" or whatever that nonsense is is total marketing dribble. That said, a lot of IEMs have pretty reactive impedance response, so you'll see some FR shift as you move from amplifier to amplifier ("but low impedance minimizes that" - no, its just one possible variation; whos to say what is "right" and what is "wrong" unless the manufacturer provides a specification, which few do, and even then, unless you're putting the equipment into a dangerous place (which you aren't) its a preference discussion: does it sound good to you? if yes, then it is what it is, and life is happy). 




schyneyder said:


> How much better the ZXR is compared to Asus Xonar D2X ?
> 
> % better for music, gaming and movies/tv series ?
> 
> thanks




FWIW:
I don't have the D2X, but I have a Razer card that is based on the same C-Media chipset and offers a lot of the same Dolby/DTS packages (however unlike the Asus, offers Razer's "ESP Surround" package as well) - honestly I'd rank it as comparable to the ZxR all things considered - both are good (and if you're just after a straight stereo/5.1 output, they're basically an even match, along with a whole slew of other nice soundcards). The ZxR has a dedicated headphone amplifier built-in, which my Razer lacks, but I know some of the Asus cards also have headphone amplifiers (and if I recall correctly, some of them even use the same TI chip the ZxR has; it sounds good on the ZxR imo). The biggest difference in gaming will be SBX vs Dolby Headphone - random comparo I found on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6ROujJ8Ae8

Honestly I think both SBX and DH do their job, but they do sound different. If you have an overwhelming preference for one or the other, buy whichever satisfies that, but otherwise I'd say the high-end C-Media platform is just as good, excepting any hardware differences (e.g. ZxR has dedicated headphone amp, includes the beam forming mic, etc).


----------



## PurpleAngel

schyneyder said:


> How much better the ZxR is compared to Asus Xonar D2X ?
> 
> % better for music, gaming and movies/tv series ?
> 
> thanks


 
  
 Should be roughly equal for music, maybe slight edge to the ZxR.
 The D2X comes with Dolby Headphone, the SB-ZxR comes with SBX Headphone
 The SB-ZxR has a dedicated headphone amplifier, the D2X has more like a line-output that also pretends to be a headphone jack
 So with the D2X, for headphones, your better off using an external headphone amplifier, with the D2X.
 The SB-ZxR was designed (launched) several years after the D2X first came out.


----------



## SyntaxInvalid

Posting here at the suggestion of PurpleAngel:
  
  
 Hello all,
  
 I have a Sound Blaster Z sound card in my PC that I've had for about a year and a half. I'm using the Toslink output to my Astro A50 headset. Ever since using Windows 10 (about a year now), and trying various manufacturer driver versions, I continue to have a specific problem. At random times at least once every 24-hours, the audio starts to become choppy as in, it cuts in and out quite frequently (every few seconds, for .5 - 2 seconds in duration) and I get popping noises in my headphone earcups. It affects the sound system-wide until I reboot. Then it's back to normal again until the next time it happens, always within 24-hours of the PC being on (which of course facilitates a reboot at least once per day). I have isolated the issue to the SB Z because when the problem occurs, I switch the optical cable to my on-board sound and it works fine (though it doesn't sound as good as the SB Z, since it's an ALC898). Switching back to the SB Z and I hear the problem again until a reboot. 
  
_Here is what I have set:_
  
*Sound Blaster Z Device:*
 -Default Format: 24 bit, 48.0 kHz (have tried down to 16 bit, 44.0 kHz)
 -Exclusive Mode enabled (have also tried disabled, no beneficial effect)
 -Signal Enhancements enabled (have tried disabled, no beneficial effect)
  
*SPDIF-Out Sound Blaster Z Device:*
 -Formats: Dolby Digital (my headset does 7.1 using Dolby Digital, doesn't support DTS)
 -Sample Rates: 48.0 kHz
 -Default Format: 2 channel, 24 bit, 48.0 kHz (tried the same as above)
 -Exclusive Mode enabled (tried the same as above)
  
*Sound Blaster Pro Studio Software*
 -SBX Pro Studio enabled, only Surround checked.
 -Crystal Voice disabled 
 -Scout Mode disabled
 -Speakers Config: 5.1 surround (center, subwoofer and rear l/r)
 -Cinematic: Dolby Digital Live
  
 I've also tried disabling via BIOS the on-board sound, no help. 
  
 I'm at a loss for next steps to try. I've already disabled/enabled virtually every setting on the software and sound devices when the issue happens, I have re-installed the drivers (multiple versions) at least 4 times (fully uninstalled/cleaned and a fresh install each time), and absolutely nothing helps resolve it (except for a reboot). It's isolated to the SB Z card as described above (headset and sound work fine if immediately plugged into the on-board sound device), so at this point I'm thinking it's either a driver issue that is unresolved with Creative and Windows 10, or a faulty card. 
  
 Any suggestions?


----------



## obobskivich

Sounds like Windows 10 strikes again. 

Some random thoughts/notes:

- Dolby Digital (and DTS) are not capable of 7.1 output. At absolute best you can get a matrix-encoded 6.1 stream via Dolby Digital EX, but that isn't what DDL outputs. The SoundCore parts also don't do 6.1 or 7.1. So there's some additional processing going on in the headset. Since it works with other sources I'm disinclined to believe that's at fault though. 

- Is "What U Hear" unmuted along with an input (e.g. mic/line-in or digital in) that's in use? That can lead to a "hall of mirrors" effect that is resolved by unticking "listen to this device" on the input (not on "What U Hear"), but that would be all or nothing because its double-monitoring of an input - so you can flip it on and off and go back and forth between problems and no problems (and the "hall of mirrors" would only impact whatever signal is coming in via that additional input, not the internal software audio). 

- Not surprising that BIOS settings had no effect - since Vista, Windows has handled multi-adaptor pretty cleanly as long as everyone's drivers are stable. That is of course until Windows 10 came along and took us back to the stone age in terms of compatibility and stability and so forth. 

If you can try with another, proven, operating system like Windows 7 or Windows 8, that'd give you a much better idea (and if this is a "oh my goodness things got bad after I got Windows 10" kind of thing, I think its fair to say we know where the problem is). I'd also probably upgrade to Windows 7/8 out of general principle, but that's just me (assuming your PC is "old" enough that Microsoft will give you that choice).


----------



## SyntaxInvalid

obobskivich said:


> Sounds like Windows 10 strikes again.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks for the reply!
  
 -The Astro A50 is converting the 5.1 audio from the SBZ to 7.1, so the SBZ is only set to output 5.1 of Dolby Digital Live (not DTS, as Astro doesn't support that yet). 
  
 -The Astro A50 microphone is not a separate plug-in, so it's all handled through their own mixamp receiver that sends and receives audio through the optical cable. In my testing, my microphone absolutely does not work without What U Hear being enabled (which I don't like because sometimes Skype will not detect the microphone and default to What U Hear, so if I'm listening to quiet music while on a conference call, I've had others say, "What's that music I hear?". To your question though, "Listen to this device" is disabled in both the What U Hear as well as the Astro A50 microphone. Mic always works fine when the described issue happens though. 
  
 -With Windows 8.1, this issue was not present. That's not to say that the issue is definitely not a hardware problem, since a dip/spike in voltage could cause similar reactions, but it's most likely not the issue. I have almost no doubt that the issue is either due to the driver integration with Windows 10, or a hardware problem with the card (I've tried other PCIe slots already). However, as a software developer that has been using Windows 10 since pre-alpha internal release (helps to have friends on the Windows team at MS), we have far different opinions of the OS  I'll simply leave it at that, and that there is no desire on my part to revert back to their less secure, and more resource intensive platforms. The SBZ works most of the time just fine on Windows 10, so I believe it's a driver issue (which is ultimately Creative's responsibility, especially this far after W10 release) where the driver is reaching some sort of resource deadlock or byte stream issue under some trigger circumstance (yet to be identified).
  
 On the Creative forum, one of their main guys just sent me a PM with a registry update to see if it helps. I looked at the registry values and it's simply adding a definition for a hardware level max byte size, where previously there was none. Due to the sporadic nature of this issue, and how even a youtube video has set it off once, I'm not sure this is a desirable "fix" but will probably lead to a better resolution down the road.  Will update this thread if beneficial results are experienced.


----------



## kashim

guys i m planning to buy a good microphone under 50 euro for gaming and twitch with good sound quality,noise cancellation and mute option if possible,some friends suggested me to look this 
 nw-800 (don t know if my soundblaster z can handle right or i need to buy an amp or some like it) , modmic v4...


----------



## obobskivich

syntaxinvalid said:


> Thanks for the reply!
> 
> -The Astro A50 is converting the 5.1 audio from the SBZ to 7.1, so the SBZ is only set to output 5.1 of Dolby Digital Live (not DTS, as Astro doesn't support that yet).




That's what I assumed was happening - if the issue was with that simulacrum it would exist constantly (it would be bound to the A50, or at least that's what would be reasonable to expect). There's nothing wrong with 5.1->7.1 simulacrum or anything of that manner. Just to throw it out there: the SoundCore, when in "Headphone" mode (digital output still functions here) will do automatic 5.1 -> headphone processing (it sends out a stereo PCM bitstream of this if you enable "Play stereo mix to digital output" in the driver); I'm not sure if the Astro takes in stereo PCM but it may be worth playing around with to see which works better given that the Z is capable of that kind of processing as well. If the DDL output sounds better ofc leave it there. 



> -The Astro A50 microphone is not a separate plug-in, so it's all handled through their own mixamp receiver that sends and receives audio through the optical cable. In my testing, my microphone absolutely does not work without What U Hear being enabled (which I don't like because sometimes Skype will not detect the microphone and default to What U Hear, so if I'm listening to quiet music while on a conference call, I've had others say, "What's that music I hear?". To your question though, "Listen to this device" is disabled in both the What U Hear as well as the Astro A50 microphone. Mic always works fine when the described issue happens though.




So you're bypassing the Z's microphone input and using the TOSlink in/out, and the Z is treating that as a digital in. "What U Hear" is basically Creative's workaround to Windows'...peculiarities...with audio input handling. Generally it should be set to "Listen to" and everything else not set to "Listen to" (or you can get the "hall of mirrors") but yes it can cause problems with applications that don't expect it (there are other, stand-alone, pro audio type apps that similarly spoof a device in order to workaround Windows that can be similarly problematic for things like Skype) - just tell those applications to look at the digital input where the Astro is (and tell Windows to use that digital input as the default device). If you disable "What U Hear" it will crush all output - more or less (on older Creative cards and in previous versions of Windows before they gutted MIDI and FM and such, you could still get sound via those avenues with "What U Hear" disabled because it drew from the wavetable sound; post-WASAPI things got more interesting when you want to deal with actual hardware sound). 



> -With Windows 8.1, this issue was not present.




Not to be rude but honestly this sounds like the winning solution - everything was working hunky-dory until you changed a variable (in this case downgraded from 8.1 to 10) and then things stopped working. Logical process of elimination. Fielding all sorts of borderline implausible and fantastic scenarios just to excuse calling a turd a turd won't change that (and let's not even go down the road of "its more secure" mkay). Now, that having been said, Creative has probably one of the worst track records when it comes to keeping up with Microsoft and driver quality, and at <1 year after release I'd honestly say feel lucky the thing works at well - they historically just do not play the early adoption game very well. Some questions that I'd throw out though:

- If the Astro thing accepts analog inputs, have you tried those via the Z?
- If you have integrated audio with digital out, have you tried that? (or tried analog out, if the Astro thing accepts analog inputs) 

If things are fixed with analog audio out via the Z, I'd say the issue is entirely on Creative's driver. If things are fixed with the integrated audio I'd say there's a good chance the issues is on Creative's driver, but since you want to introduce "hardware issues" into the equation I'll be fair and say there's an ever-so-slight chance of this being the case (you could always test the card in another system that runs Vista/7/8 and see if it works to confirm that), but again that doesn't seem to be a logical conclusion unless there's a plausible cause of a hardware issue ("it randomly just so happened to correlate with the exact moment I upgraded to Windows 10" is getting well into the realm of fantasy imho, now of course if its more like "my house suffered a direct lightning strike around the time I upgraded to Windows 10" that's an entirely different discussion); if the integrated audio causes similar problems, well...that leaves Windows 10...:rolleyes:

If you want to rule out the hardware bit, I'd say try the card elsewhere; trying another audio device in the Win10 PC would also get you another datapoint in troubleshooting (if, by some luck, you actually own a second, identical, SB Z, you could swap that - if it still doesn't work right, the hardware is likely not the problem; if it works great, sounds like its time to request an RMA on the bad one).


----------



## SyntaxInvalid

Thanks again for the reply. 
  
 I also don't mean to be rude, but your insistence on Windows 10 being a downgrade and an obvious negative comparison to prior versions is off-putting. I respect that you know audio extremely well, so please respect that I know software engineering and OS development very well too. I have my reasons, and I must say that Windows 10 is definitely not a downgrade from Windows 8.1. That would be like trading in a 2016 Honda Pilot for a 2011 Ford Explorer simply because the aftermarket radio doesn't work with one of the connectors without the proper harness (and the manufacturer knows about it, they just haven't made the harness yet).
  
 I cannot use analog audio as the Astro A50 requires optical for any audio signal conversion. No point in trying less. 
  
 So far so good on the registry update limiting the max bitrate from Creative. I've used the headphones roughly 8 hours today without a hiccup yet. Will report back later.
  
 As a final thought, I would encourage you to research the benefits of Windows 10 over prior versions. Whether it be software compatibility, driver compatibility, cross-device support, overall performance and up time, there are more reasons that I can count to make the upgrade. It's the most secure platform Windows has ever made for non enterprise use, and it blows the prior versions out of the water on straight performance benchmarks. But that's for another forum; I just think you're too closed minded about it without knowing the facts. If this registry tweak that Creative sent me works, it means that their SBZ simply can't handle the superior audio stream that Windows 10 is channeling through it. They need to add a limiter.
  
 EDIT: Drat, the issue occurred again this morning. At least I got a full day out of it yesterday. Quick reboot resolved the issue as expected.


----------



## obobskivich

syntaxinvalid said:


> I also don't mean to be rude, but your insistence on Windows 10 being a downgrade and an obvious negative comparison to prior versions is off-putting. I respect that you know audio extremely well, so please respect that I know software engineering and OS development very well too. I have my reasons, and I must say that Windows 10 is definitely not a downgrade from Windows 8.1. That would be like trading in a 2016 Honda Pilot for a 2011 Ford Explorer simply because the aftermarket radio doesn't work with one of the connectors without the proper harness (and the manufacturer knows about it, they just haven't made the harness yet).




I disagree with you - that doesn't mean you're right and I'm wrong (nor does it mean I have to stop talking because it doesn't comport with your world-view; I'm sorry that not everyone unanimously loves the product you love). I don't like car analogies when discussing non-automotive topics either, because they're generally always woefully inaccurate. 



> I cannot use analog audio as the Astro A50 requires optical for any audio signal conversion. No point in trying less.




Rats. Was thinking it may be a digital audio out issue that we could test for. If you have an ADC you could always try that, but there's no "SBX Headphone mix out" from the Z via the line-out (and don't go hooking that headphone amp up to something that expects a line level signal). 



> So far so good on the registry update limiting the max bitrate from Creative. I've used the headphones roughly 8 hours today without a hiccup yet. Will report back later.




Good to hear. 



> EDIT: Drat, the issue occurred again this morning. At least I got a full day out of it yesterday. Quick reboot resolved the issue as expected.




Bummer. 



> As a final thought, I would encourage you to research the benefits of Windows 10 over prior versions.





I've done my due diligence on this - I'd encourage you to just stop now lest you be accused of astoturfing for a product that you're (claiming to be) directly involved in the development/production of (which is a no-no on Head-Fi; its a massive conflict of interest when you're trying to promote something that you're directly economically/professionally involved with). Bottom line is that you, nor anyone else at Microsoft, has been able to conclusively address the wide-ranging data collection and phoning home (often over unencrypted channels), and that's a gigantic question mark in terms of security and privacy (and there's a reason many governments and NGOs won't touch it with a ten foot pole, but go ahead and tell me I'm "closed minded" and "ignorant" again and throw some more astoturf down). Additionally, the forced "updates" and "upgrades" are completely unwelcome "features," especially when they include system-bricking driver updates, and overrides to the previous lifecycle policies. There's also the whole bit about it having catalyzed issues with your hardware (which is a not uncommon problem with Windows 10 - in fairness this has been true of ALL new Microsoft OS releases, especially with Creative hardware), which seems to completely escape you as an avenue of troubleshooting ("I refuse to give up Windows 10 (even when its causing problems for me) because I need to tell the world how great it is" is roughly what I've gotten out of your replies, along with a healthy dose of personal attacks and attempts to inject all sorts of astoturfing for Windows 10 into the discussion - I didn't bring up the debate about whether or not its "good" I simply pointed out that it's likely the culprit due to its newness (sorry if my humor was lost on you - we only have text here), and from there you've steered the discussion into "well as a developer of Windows 10 (and therefore the only legitimate and reputable font of knowledge related to anything regarding software or Windows), its the greatest OS ever made, and anyone who disagrees is a closed-minded, ignorant fool!").


----------



## SyntaxInvalid

Oh boy, what a can of worms that is. I wasn't aware that you were the only one allowed to write your opinion and that anybody who contests it is lesser than you. I also wasn't aware that my statement that I have friends who work for Microsoft somehow puts me as a direct involvement in the project, which it does not. I'm dropping the entire Windows discussion as this is not the place nor the audience for it.
  
 For the record, TLDR.


----------



## obobskivich

syntaxinvalid said:


> Oh boy, what a can of worms that is. I wasn't aware that you were the only one allowed to write your opinion and that anybody who contests it is lesser than you. I also wasn't aware that my statement that I have friends who work for Microsoft somehow puts me as a direct involvement in the project, which it does not. I'm dropping the entire Windows discussion as this is not the place nor the audience for it.
> 
> For the record, TLDR.




Don't be so quick to run the for the moral high ground and hide behind smug dismissals - you're absolutely allowed to your own opinion, and nowhere have I said you're "lesser" or "inferior" to me for holding your views. I have, however, protested being called "closed minded" and "ignorant" simply because I feel differently about an issue than you do (and you'll notice I haven't made any personal attacks or comments about you as a person, and I'd appreciate the same courtesy in return). As far as reversing your tale on "no I'm not directly involved" - you first stated you were, as a professional OS developer, privy to pre-release pre-Alpha builds of the product from internal sources on the Windows development team and have worked with it/them, but now are backing off of that; I'm unsure what to think either way. You're also the one that raised the Windows 10 issue repeatedly - I made a joke (that apparently went over your head; this is nobody's fault) in response to your original question, and you continued to the revive the point (getting more insistent and more pushy about it each time); my only serious reason for bringing Windows 10 into the discussion was logical process of elimination (which I've stated multiple times). You seem chained to it as a platform, which limits your troubleshooting options, and instead of responding to other troubleshooting suggestions have continued down "the entire Windows discussion." Hopefully something pans out for a working solution for you in the future.


----------



## NCSUZoSo

syntaxinvalid said:


> Oh boy, what a can of worms that is. I wasn't aware that you were the only one allowed to write your opinion and that anybody who contests it is lesser than you. I also wasn't aware that my statement that I have friends who work for Microsoft somehow puts me as a direct involvement in the project, which it does not. I'm dropping the entire Windows discussion as this is not the place nor the audience for it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



 


Don't sweat it, this guy is blowing smoke and nobody but he cares what you wrote 

I agree with you though that W10 is much much better than W8.1 and this is coming from someone who worked for both the State Department and Lowe's HQ in IT Hardware who is now an Electrical Engineering student. This isn't even bringing up the fact W10 is free or the fact the audio stack was upgraded from W7.


----------



## mjmcmahon67

Did a brief search, but didn't find any applicable info: looking for suggestions on whether purchasing a headphone amp (i.e. Schiit Magni Uber or similar) would be of any value with the Soundblaster Z.  I'm currently using Philips SHP9500's, but may upgrade to Fidelio X2's.  Neither are hard to drive, but more power can't hurt, right?  The Magni would likely be hooked up to the standard output in the back of the card rather than the amplified headphone output.  Is the Output Impedence of 22 Ohms a concern with 32 Ohm or 35 Ohm cans like the SHP9500 or Fidelio?
  
 Thanks in advance,
  
 Mike


----------



## obobskivich

mjmcmahon67 said:


> Did a brief search, but didn't find any applicable info: looking for suggestions on whether purchasing a headphone amp (i.e. Schiit Magni Uber or similar) would be of any value with the Soundblaster Z.  I'm currently using Philips SHP9500's, but may upgrade to Fidelio X2's.  Neither are hard to drive, but more power can't hurt, right?  The Magni would likely be hooked up to the standard output in the back of the card rather than the amplified headphone output.  Is the Output Impedence of 22 Ohms a concern with 32 Ohm or 35 Ohm cans like the SHP9500 or Fidelio?
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> 
> Mike




With ZxR and Recon3D (the Z is more similar to the Recon3D) I've had no complaints with 32-64 ohm cans. An external amplifier may be more powerful, however; the internal amp on the Z (afaik) is the same Maxim IC that the Recon3D uses, which provides ~250mW/ch into 32R; the ZxR uses a TI that can do something like double that on the maximum gain setting. There are standalone headphone amplifiers that can easily get into the multi-watt range, however, and if you need (for whatever reason) that kind of power, that'd be a route to take (I don't think think there are, or I should say have not yet found/experienced there to be, any low impedance dynamic cans that really need that kind of power).


----------



## kashim

guys i have akg k612 pro and soundblaster z,cs go audio is so bugged with alchemy and 5.1 settings,sound like sbx is incompatible with it,then there is some soundcard with cmss3d or dolby with better positional audio then my sb z?like titanium hd or xonar essence?


----------



## sygnus21

mjmcmahon67 said:


> Did a brief search, but didn't find any applicable info: looking for suggestions on whether purchasing a headphone amp (i.e. Schiit Magni Uber or similar) would be of any value with the Soundblaster Z.  I'm currently using Philips SHP9500's, but may upgrade to Fidelio X2's.  Neither are hard to drive, but more power can't hurt, right?  The Magni would likely be hooked up to the standard output in the back of the card rather than the amplified headphone output.  Is the Output Impedence of 22 Ohms a concern with 32 Ohm or 35 Ohm cans like the SHP9500 or Fidelio?
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> 
> Mike


 
 Hi,
  
 I actually have the SoundBlaster ZXR card and did a quick review on it here. That said, I can't speak for the Z, but I thought the headphone amp of the ZXR was strong and powerful and certainly powerful enough to drive most headphones. It's certainly designed to push 600Ohm phones.   
  
 That said, I just upgraded to a high end DAC (Teac UD-503) to push my powered Audioengine A5+ powered speakers, and also purchasing a pair of Sennheiser HD700 Headphones. With that, even though the ZXR card can easily push my HD700's, they don't sound as good as they do on the 503's built in headamp. On the 503, the sound is cleaner, warmer, wider, and less "digital" sounding than the ZXR. Of note here is that the Teac UD-503 is a "USB" DAC, meaning it uses the PC's USB connection get it's input.  I'll also note that the UD-503 is also capable of taking a digital input via optical cable from the ZXR's daughter card (DBPro). And in my mind, the USB side sounds more natural than the digital input, but that's a debate that can be argued elsewhere.  
  
 Anyway what has that to do with your question??? - Well while the Z/ZXR may certainly have the headamp "power" to drive your headphones, it doesn't mean it's as clean as that provided by a dedicated headamp like the Schiit you're looking at. On the other hand you need to be aware that the quality of components and sound source also play a bit role here. As a friend of mine told me a long time ago, and my computer class professors remind us, garbage in = garbage out. 
  
 Oh, and there should be no issues with 22, 32, or 35 Ohm headphones as most portable devices are capable of driving these. In fact, these low ohm phones are made for portable devices like iPod's or Smartphones. When you start getting into 150 Ohm phones like the HD700's or the 300 Ohm HD800, or perhaps Audio Technica's 450 Ohm ATH-R70x headphones, then you can worry about having the power to drive them properly.  The key word being "properly" as not enough power can make high ohm headphones sound "thin".  That said, I can't speak for the Z, but the ZXR is certainly capable of driving the phones I mentioned above. The question is at what price... sound quality wise.
  
 In short, to answer your question, I think the Schiit Magni 2 Uber may be a better head amp than the Z (and maybe the ZXR) given Schiit's reputation for quality HA at affordable prices. Here's some Head-Fi reviews on it here: Schiit Modi 2 Uber Reviews.
  
 That said, you may want to look at some different headphones. And NO, you don't need to spend hundreds on them. Audio Technica's ATH M50(X), are one of the best rated headphones for less than $200 (actually less than $150, I paid $115 new at Amazon). Here's a YouTube review of them here: Audio Technica ATH-M50X Review - Holy Grail of Headphones Under $200?  I certainly agree with his review being I own a pair.
  
 Good luck.


----------



## obobskivich

kashim said:


> guys i have akg k612 pro and soundblaster z,cs go audio is so bugged with alchemy and 5.1 settings,sound like sbx is incompatible with it,then there is some soundcard with cmss3d or dolby with better positional audio then my sb z?like titanium hd or xonar essence?




Do you have a PCI slot? Razer AC-1 has Dolby Headphone and Razer ESP and (IME) is very compatible (but I haven't tried CSGO specifically - the machine that card is in currently couldn't touch that game), and functionally similar to the SoundCore parts. CSGO shouldn't be using ALchemy though - its Source based (and super duper new), and shouldn't be capable of DS3DHW, let alone needing emulation. 






sygnus21 said:


> That said, I just upgraded to a high end DAC (Teac UD-503) to push my powered Audioengine A5+ powered speakers, and also purchasing a pair of Sennheiser HD700 Headphones. With that, even though the ZXR card can easily push my HD700's, they don't sound as good as they do on the 503's built in headamp. On the 503, the sound is cleaner, warmer, wider, and less "digital" sounding than the ZXR. Of note here is that the Teac UD-503 is a "USB" DAC, meaning it uses the PC's USB connection get it's input.  I'll also note that the UD-503 is also capable of taking a digital input via optical cable from the ZXR's daughter card (DBPro). And in my mind, the USB side sounds more natural than the digital input, but that's a debate that can be argued elsewhere.
> 
> Anyway what has that to do with your question??? - Well while the Z/ZXR may certainly have the headamp "power" to drive your headphones, it doesn't mean it's as clean as that provided by a dedicated headamp like the Schiit you're looking at. On the other hand you need to be aware that the quality of components and sound source also play a bit role here. As a friend of mine told me a long time ago, and my computer class professors remind us, garbage in = garbage out.
> 
> ...




I don't know about the 503 specifically, but a lot of the TEAC parts have 120R IEC-compliant headphone outs, which will result in an FR shift on more reactive headphones (which most Sennheisers are); that could explain "its so much warmer sounding!" and it has little to do with "its more expensive and "higher end" and therefore "better"". This isn't at all an attack - I'm a happy TEAC owner myself (and wish more manufacturers would adhere to the IEC spec). 

I also wanted to respond specifically to this:


> Oh, and there should be no issues with 22, 32, or 35 Ohm headphones as most portable devices are capable of driving these. In fact, these low ohm phones are made for portable devices like iPod's or Smartphones. When you start getting into 150 Ohm phones like the HD700's or the 300 Ohm HD800, or perhaps Audio Technica's 450 Ohm ATH-R70x headphones, then you can worry about having the power to drive them properly. The key word being "properly" as not enough power can make high ohm headphones sound "thin". That said, I can't speak for the Z, but the ZXR is certainly capable of driving the phones I mentioned above. The question is at what price... sound quality wise.




Higher impedance ("higher ohm") headphones require more voltage swing, relatively speaking, than lower impedance headphones. This doesn't mean they require more power (power = voltage*current), however. A lot of portable/mobile/embedded/etc devices won't be able to provide the voltage that higher Z headphones need, even if they have decent output power in a broad sense, and this is often because they're limited by their power source (e.g. their internal batteries); a lot of desktop amplifiers output less power at 600R than they do at 32R as well, usually due to voltage limits. Whether or not the headphone sounds "thin" has to do with other factors as well, like how its interacting with the amplifier's output impedance (e.g. a very reactive headphone, like most Sennheisers, on a very low output impedance amplifier with low overall voltage output will probably sound "thin"). Lower impedance headphones are not universally designed or manufactured for mobile devices, however; there are many top-tier headphones that happen to be low impedance (Grado, Sony, Audio-Technica, Fostex, some AKGs, Ultrasone, and JVC/Victor all fit into this category, as examples), along with most planar magnetic headphones. This doesn't mean those "higher end" headphones need mythical amplification or anything, but they generally assume desktop use (a lot of them have companion amplifiers from their respective mfgrs), vs something like Beats Pro which is very low impedance, extremely high sensitivity, etc and will get VERY loud with very little input (and is squarely designed for mobile devices).


----------



## PurpleAngel

mjmcmahon67 said:


> Did a brief search, but didn't find any applicable info: looking for suggestions on whether purchasing a headphone amp (i.e. Schiit Magni Uber or similar) would be of any value with the Sound Blaster Z.  I'm currently using Philips SHP9500's, but may upgrade to Fidelio X2's.  Neither are hard to drive, but more power can't hurt, right?  The Magni would likely be hooked up to the standard output in the back of the card rather than the amplified headphone output Is the Output Impedance of 22 Ohms a concern with 32 Ohm or 35 Ohm cans like the SHP9500 or Fidelio?


 
  
 I've hooked 32-Ohm headphones to the SB-Z's (22-Ohm) headphone jack, still sounded good.
 I think your better off putting all your audio budget for better headphones.
  
 Just get some headphones with a higher impedance.
  
 Maybe try to win a bid on used Beyerdynamic T90 (250-Ohm) headphones.
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Beyerdynamic-T90-Open-back-Headphones-/291719101512?hash=item43ebd03c48:g:euAAAOSwmmxW2KaJ
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Beyerdynamic-T90-Open-back-Headphones-NIB-/291719103355?hash=item43ebd0437b:g:KzsAAOSwmmxW3EC3


----------



## PurpleAngel

mjmcmahon67 said:


> Did a brief search, but didn't find any applicable info: looking for suggestions on whether purchasing a headphone amp (i.e. Schiit Magni Uber or similar) would be of any value with the Soundblaster Z.  I'm currently using Philips SHP9500's, but may upgrade to Fidelio X2's.  Neither are hard to drive, but more power can't hurt, right?  The Magni would likely be hooked up to the standard output in the back of the card rather than the amplified headphone output.  Is the Output Impedence of 22 Ohms a concern with 32 Ohm or 35 Ohm cans like the SHP9500 or Fidelio?


 
  
 Massdrop is offering the 62-Ohm AKG K7XX again ($200).
 https://www.massdrop.com/buy/akg-k7xx-massdrop-first-edition-headphones


----------



## mjmcmahon67

I'm pretty sure you guys are psychic troublemaker psychic guys! A co-worker brought in some ATH-M50's and I made the mistake of listening to them. Shortly thereafter, I bought a bundle with the M50X's and a FIIO E12 from BuyDig. Price was great: 225 for the bundle shipped


----------



## sygnus21

obobskivich said:


>





> I don't know about the 503 specifically, but a lot of the TEAC parts have 120R IEC-compliant headphone outs, which will result in an FR shift on more reactive headphones (which most Sennheisers are); that could explain "its so much warmer sounding!" and it has little to do with "its more expensive and "higher end" and therefore "better"". This isn't at all an attack - I'm a happy TEAC owner myself (and wish more manufacturers would adhere to the IEC spec).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 First off, I never hinted that the more expensive a piece of equipment was, the better it sounded. I'm not really one for paying a ton of money for stereo equipment and paying for the UD-503 was a "loss my mind" moment. However, I'm glad I did as I like the DAC a lot.
  
 As for the higher ohm, thing, yeah, perhaps I should have said voltage, but being I'm no electronics engineer, I tried to keep things on a simple street term level. Sorry.
  
 Oh, BTW here's the "Official" specs and notes on the UD-503... which uses a new VERITA AK4490 chip instead of the old Burr-Brown chips?
  
 As for the HD700's, though they are an airy headphone by nature, it seems to me that the UD-503's head amp also produces a somewhat open airy sound as this is also noticed when using my Audio Technica ATH M50X's, or Bose QC 25 as well. BTW the way Teac also describes the VERITA AK4490 chip as having a "velvet sound"
  
 Lastly, there's a discussion thread on the Teac UD-503 where another user who actually uses tube amps describes the Teac sound as tube like - Teac UD 503 DAC (2015 New Release, DXD, DSD256) - Page 11 (post 160)
  
 At any rate I merely tried to describe to the OP that there is a sound difference between my ZXR card, and a dedicated DAC, and feel they will experience the same when moving to their DAC. Your view may be different.
  
 Thanks for the electronics lesson.
  
 Peace


----------



## obobskivich

sygnus21 said:


> First off, I never hinted that the more expensive a piece of equipment was, the better it sounded. I'm not really one for paying a ton of money for stereo equipment and paying for the UD-503 was a "loss my mind" moment. However, I'm glad I did as I like the DAC a lot.
> 
> As for the higher ohm, thing, yeah, perhaps I should have said voltage, but being I'm no electronics engineer, I tried to keep things on a simple street term level. Sorry.
> 
> ...




No idea why the hostile response - was simply trying to provide more information. 

The DAC chip used in the TEAC is not at all what I'm talking about though, but the headphone amp (and unfortunately TEAC's documentation is fairly sparse/incomplete for that). Many of their previous products (I think with the exception of the big 501 headphone amp) follow IEC output specifications, and that would comport with "tube like sound" in many cases too (as many tube amps have higher output impedance too). Sound differences between DACs are generally *very* minimal, but that isn't to say non-existent; more likely the differences are attributable to the headphone amplifier differences between the ZxR (and its TI solution) and whatever the TEAC has in there (which is unique to the 503 with its HCLD circuit).


----------



## sygnus21

The hostile response is your interpretation, not my intention. 
  
 And I'm not here to debate what electronics the Teac is using as it's beyond my field of expertise.  I simply replied with what I thought was pertinent info pertaining to the discussion here. Had I known I was going to get into an electronics debate I would have done my homework before posting 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 At any rate the "hostility" is perceived, not real 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Peace


----------



## mindbomb

obobskivich said:


> CSGO shouldn't be using ALchemy though - its Source based (and super duper new), and shouldn't be capable of DS3DHW, let alone needing emulation.


 
 source games can use directsound3d with console commands. snd_legacy_surround in combination with a surround sound setting. You would need alchemy or asus gx to get this to work properly, though I'm not sure what advantages there would really be. One assumes hardware acceleration would be superior somehow.


----------



## sygnus21

mjmcmahon67 said:


> I'm pretty sure you guys are psychic troublemaker psychic guys! A co-worker brought in some ATH-M50's and I made the mistake of listening to them. Shortly thereafter, I bought a bundle with the M50X's and a FIIO E12 from BuyDig. Price was great: 225 for the bundle shipped


 

 Yeah the M50X's are an excellent sounding headphone, especially at their price. They don't quite have the treble some other phones have, but they're also not a bass heavy bass phone either. What they are though is a well balanced phone for a wide variety of music. In fact when I'm listening to my electronica music I reach for the M50X over the Sennheiser HD700's. 
  
 For the price they really are a must have headphone.


----------



## dnLL

I read the last 3-4 pages of this thread but I'm confused now. Looking at some other threads, I read that low impedance headphones could be a problem with the SB-Z because I would have to put the volume at like 5% and wouldn't be able to find quite a good volume since 6% would be too loud already (this is an example). Is that fixed (with some settings in the software) or I still need to be careful on what headphones to use?

I currently have bad HyperX Cloud headset that I plan to upgrade either for some cheap M50x or some expansive MMX300 cans (I will see with my budget this summer) but could have a good deal on a SB-Z right now and just want to make sure I won't have any problem. Is that (usually) a good bang for the buck for a non-audiophile gamer?

Also I currently have a E10k but I really want an internal sound card for many reasons, should I expect any improvement (over time with better cans)?

Thank you!


----------



## PurpleAngel

dnll said:


> I read the last 3-4 pages of this thread but I'm confused now. Looking at some other threads, I read that low impedance headphones could be a problem with the SB-Z because I would have to put the volume at like 5% and wouldn't be able to find quite a good volume since 6% would be too loud already (this is an example). Is that fixed (with some settings in the software) or I still need to be careful on what headphones to use?
> I currently have bad HyperX Cloud headset that I plan to upgrade either for some cheap M50x or some expansive MMX300 cans (I will see with my budget this summer) but could have a good deal on a SB-Z right now and just want to make sure I won't have any problem. Is that (usually) a good bang for the buck for a non-audiophile gamer?
> Also I currently have a E10k but I really want an internal sound card for many reasons, should I expect any improvement (over time with better cans)?


 
  
 Going from the HyperX Cloud (Takstar Pro 80, Gemini HSR-1000) to the ATH-M50x might not really be an improvement, if any at all.
 I say to get the Soundmagic HP150 headphone and plug it straight into the SB-Z sound card. (best bang for the buck option).


----------



## kashim

sygnus21 said:


> Yeah the M50X's are an excellent sounding headphone, especially at their price. They don't quite have the treble some other phones have, but they're also not a bass heavy bass phone either. What they are though is a well balanced phone for a wide variety of music. In fact when I'm listening to my electronica music I reach for the M50X over the Sennheiser HD700's.
> 
> For the price they really are a must have headphone.


 
 then i need cs go on alchemy list + windows 5.1 + snd_legacysorround 1 + 2 speakers/ 5.1 in game?


----------



## dnLL

purpleangel said:


> dnll said:
> 
> 
> > I read the last 3-4 pages of this thread but I'm confused now. Looking at some other threads, I read that low impedance headphones could be a problem with the SB-Z because I would have to put the volume at like 5% and wouldn't be able to find quite a good volume since 6% would be too loud already (this is an example). Is that fixed (with some settings in the software) or I still need to be careful on what headphones to use?
> ...



Good to know, I didn't know the cheap Kingston gamer headset was that good lol. But that doesn't answer the rest of my post about my concerns with low impedance headphones and volume level.


----------



## mjmcmahon67

dnLL -
  
 I'm certainly no expert, but my Philips SHP9500's are 32R cans and I've had no issue with excessive volume on my Soundblaster Z.  They were not running excessively loud from the outset, but your mileage may vary.
  
 <edited to clarify answer>


----------



## sygnus21

purpleangel said:


> Going from the HyperX Cloud (Takstar Pro 80, Gemini HSR-1000) to the ATH-M50x might not really be an improvement, if any at all.
> I say to get the Soundmagic HP150 headphone and plug it straight into the SB-Z sound card. (best bang for the buck option).


 

 Have you actually heard the ATH M50/X?  
  
 Anyway it really comes down to what one is looking for in music, gaming, or both. Example - since I don't do multiplayer gaming I don't need headphones with a built in mic so any headphone in that category wouldn't interest me.  Also since I prioritize my headphones towards music more so than gaming that also influences my headphone decision. That said, I found the M50's to be very good for gaming since they also do an excellent job of blocking out outside noise. However, I found that the Sennheiser HD700's to be even better because of their wide soundstage and airy sound. This makes the game's environment sound more open and in-depth. They also pick up the smallest detail in sound which allows you to easily hear enemies creeping up behind you. And yes, they can also drop the bass notes for that explosive sound. That said, the HD700's are $500+, where the ATH M50's are currently less than $120 bucks.
  
 And yes, either of these phones can be plugged directly into the SB-Z/ZXR without issue of fear of damage.
  
 To me, the best bang for the buck is what your ear wants to hear and enjoy - whether a $50 pair of headphones or a $1000 dollar pair.
  
 My two cents.


----------



## PurpleAngel

dnll said:


> I read the last 3-4 pages of this thread but I'm confused now. Looking at some other threads, I read that low impedance headphones could be a problem with the SB-Z because I would have to put the volume at like 5% and wouldn't be able to find quite a good volume since 6% would be too loud already (this is an example). Is that fixed (with some settings in the software) or I still need to be careful on what headphones to use?


 
  
 I've plugged headphones from 32-Ohm up to 600-Ohm into the SB-Z's headphone jack.
 Never saw an issue with the volume controls that your describing.


----------



## sygnus21

dnll said:


> Good to know, I didn't know the cheap Kingston gamer headset was that good lol. But that doesn't answer the rest of my post about my concerns with low impedance headphones and volume level.


 

 You're not going to burn out low impedance headphones using them on your soundcard. If that were the case, quite a few headphones (as in most gaming headphones in which the card was designed to be used with) would be incompatible with the card. That said, if your soundcard has a setting that allows High Gain (600 Ohms) and you ran your 30 something Ohm phones in that mode, yeah, you could damage them. But you'd have to set the card to that mode for that to happen...
  

  
 If your card's software doesn't have that setting, you don't have a High Gain card.  And the 600 Ohm setting is simply to allow the card to efficiently drive those high impedance headphones. See Wiki link below.
  
 In short, you're worrying about nothing as most headphones fall into the 30 something Ohm range, including the Audio Technical ATH M50's, which is 36 Ohms. And depending who you ask "normal" can be somewhere between 16-100 or 200 and below... Wiki - Headphones (Impedance)
  
 BTW most (though not always true) "audiophile" headphones tend to fall into the high impedance range. Though the Sennheiser HD700's ($500+) are not necessarily "high impedance" they are in the 150 Ohm range. Contrast that with Audio Technica's ATH R70x ($349) which come in at a whopping 470 Ohms. 
  
 Again, you're worrying about nothing.
  
 Peace


----------



## dnLL

mjmcmahon67 said:


> dnLL -
> 
> I'm certainly no expert, but my Philips SHP9500's are 32R cans and I've had no issue with excessive volume on my Soundblaster Z.  They were not running excessively loud from the outset, but your mileage may vary.
> 
> <edited to clarify answer>


 
  


purpleangel said:


> dnll said:
> 
> 
> > I read the last 3-4 pages of this thread but I'm confused now. Looking at some other threads, I read that low impedance headphones could be a problem with the SB-Z because I would have to put the volume at like 5% and wouldn't be able to find quite a good volume since 6% would be too loud already (this is an example). Is that fixed (with some settings in the software) or I still need to be careful on what headphones to use?
> ...


 
  
 Thank you both.
  
  


sygnus21 said:


> dnll said:
> 
> 
> > Good to know, I didn't know the cheap Kingston gamer headset was that good lol. But that doesn't answer the rest of my post about my concerns with low impedance headphones and volume level.
> ...


 
  
 Does the Sound Blaster Z have that setting? Could it be because it didn't have that setting when it was released? That would explain some bad reviews on Newegg about the sound being too loud and not having a switch to change the impedance (that's what I read). Also, how do you feel overall about the SB-Z, is that a good card for a gamer like me? I don't listen to FLAC music on my computer, nor do I watch movies, I have different computers/peripherals to do those things, so it's really for gaming with background music when playing casually, also Teamspeak and friends obviously. I have an ASUS Rampage IV Formula X79 motherboard, which has from what I heard a good Realtek chipset. I also tried an external Fiio E10k which worked great but I want something internal just for a better cable management behind my PC, also I don't need the volume knob or any external module, and I still have a full ATX motherboard, I might as well use it. I obviously don't want any background noise (I had none with the E10k).


----------



## dnLL

alexandrus said:


> No, Sound Blaster Z and Zx do NOT have the gain setting. Only ZxR has it.
> Also, there is no such thing as a good Realtek chipset, not when compared to any dedicated quality sound card.


 
  
 People here still say they don't have problems with the Z... so I guess it's fine.
  
 Also... this:
  


> Creative Sound Core3D, used in the Recon3D, the upcoming Z-series cards, and newer Gigabyte G1-series motherboards. They're actually codec-based devices that handle all audio processing in software, just like X-Fi MB-based products, the XtremeAudio cards, etc., and have actually LOST functionality compared to proper X-Fi cards as a whole. I'd suggest steering clear of these, unless you want the Recon3D USB due to its support for consoles with Dolby Digital output while having some PC gaming support.


 
  
 That makes me a little nervous. Is there anything better that I could get in Canada under the 200$ pricetag? What does it mean exactly? I have a Core i7-3820 so it's not like if I was lacking any CPU ressources, but I would obviously prefer the audio processing being handled by the hardware...


----------



## dnLL

alexandrus said:


> Well, that's false about the Sound Core3D. The CPU/APU or whatever you want to call, the Sound Core3D chip that is, itself handles all the processing, in HARDWARE, obviously.
> The only things lost compared to the X-Fi series is the hardware support for EAX HD, EAX 5.0, whatever it's called, and X-RAM. But considering those haven't been used since before the PCI-e versions of the X-Fi were launched, it's not such a loss.



I found that here: http://www.head-fi.org/t/593050/the-nameless-guide-to-pc-gaming-audio-with-binaural-headphone-surround-sound (original post)

See, that's what I hate about forums, the above thread is linked in Mad Lust Envy's mega thread in his original post, and it has been updated, so I tend to trust that, now you say it's false. Can anyone else confirm who's right? Maybe Nameless's post could be updated if you are right, since this is purely misguiding people, and those threads get a lot of attention here and on search engines.


----------



## sygnus21

alexandrus said:


> No, Sound Blaster Z and Zx do NOT have the gain setting. Only ZxR has it.
> Also, there is no such thing as a good Realtek chipset, not when compared to any dedicated quality sound card.


 
  
  


dnll said:


> People here still say they don't have problems with the Z... so I guess it's fine.
> 
> Also... this:
> 
> ...


 

 I honestly think you're thinking way too deep into this. In keeping things simple and short the Z series cards are good cards and won't burn out your headphones or speakers. And yes, your audio will be handled by the hardware of the soundcard.  Please be careful when reading things online as you need to be able to filter fact from FUD. I think in this case you're mixing fact with FUD and confusing yourself.
  
 I think in your case you would do well to visit Creative's website and see for yourself what the cards are and do. I would also urge you to see this video clip.  And all Z-Series cards DO have the 600 Ohm amp; however there is no gain setting for the Z/Zx card as stated above - Software: Sound Blaster Z-Series Control Panel and Creative Alchemy.  That said, I'm not sure how the Z/Zx handles low impedance headphones. My "guess" would be it's probably internally controlled by the card itself. I can't imagine Creative letting this thing run full bore and burning out headphones so... Also I'm no expert here so I imagine someone will come in and correct me if I'm wrong and I'm comfortable with that. 
  
 Also I was obviously wrong when I said this.... "If your card's software doesn't have that setting (gain setting), you don't have a High Gain card."  As we clearly see both the Z and Zx DO have the 600 Ohm amp, but DON'T have that setting. My bad.   
  
 Peace


----------



## dnLL

sygnus21 said:


> alexandrus said:
> 
> 
> > No, Sound Blaster Z and Zx do NOT have the gain setting. Only ZxR has it.
> ...



Yea I'm thinking deep before investing money in a product I expect to keep for years, probably too deep but hey, I don't change my hardware too often. I'm also very careful when reading things online and this is why I added a link to the post in question, which as I said is another big mega thread with many hits here or on Google, so the information in that post should probably be edited since it's used as a reference on many other forums I visit.

I will buy the SB-Z (non-X since it has been reported that the ACM reduces the quality, and I just don't need the knob to be fair) and we will see how it goes, I have it for cheap right now anyway.


----------



## sygnus21

dnll said:


> Yea I'm thinking deep before investing money in a product I expect to keep for years, probably too deep but hey, I don't change my hardware too often. I'm also very careful when reading things online and this is why I added a link to the post in question, which as I said is another big mega thread with many hits here or on Google, so the information in that post should probably be edited since it's used as a reference on many other forums I visit.
> 
> I will buy the SB-Z (non-X since it has been reported that the ACM reduces the quality, and I just don't need the knob to be fair) and we will see how it goes, I have it for cheap right now anyway.


 

 I too don't buy anything without researching it, but I've also learned there's a lot of misinformation and FUD out there, and thus have learned to filter some of the BS out.  I think it would help if you learned to do the same by checking professional reviews and visiting the manufacture's website. People get emotional where professional reviews tend to be more objective. There's always exceptions to the rules, but... Anyway I think it would be in your best interest to be your own judge of things instead of letting everyone dictate them for you.
  
 Oh and my usage of the ZXR card and the ACM module I experienced NO signal degradation at all. That said I no longer use the module as I have a DAC for my headphone amp. I also don't need a mic as I don't do multiplayer gaming. I'm a huge gamer, I just don't do multiplayer. That said, if I did need it, I'd have no problems using it again.
  
 Good luck on whatever you decide to do.
  
 Peace


----------



## dnLL

sygnus21 said:


> dnll said:
> 
> 
> > Yea I'm thinking deep before investing money in a product I expect to keep for years, probably too deep but hey, I don't change my hardware too often. I'm also very careful when reading things online and this is why I added a link to the post in question, which as I said is another big mega thread with many hits here or on Google, so the information in that post should probably be edited since it's used as a reference on many other forums I visit.
> ...


 
  
 What cans are you using? I wonder, because you need a DAC over the integrated headphone amp (which is already way better than whatever is now integrated in any motherboard chipsets).


----------



## sygnus21

dnll said:


> What cans are you using? I wonder, because you need a DAC over the integrated headphone amp (which is already way better than whatever is now integrated in any motherboard chipsets).


 
  
 I've mentioned them several times, including replies to you - Sennheiser HD700, Audio Technica ATH M50X. I also have a pair of Bose QC 25's.
  
 And I'm running a DAC because music files running trough it sounds much better than a dedicated soundcard. It also has the ability to upsample music files as well as play DSD files. Here's my thoughts on the DAC's headphone amp with a photo of DAC and phones here, and my thoughts on the HD700's here.
  
 - Teac UD-503 discussion thread
 - My Amazon Review
  
 BTW I don't even need the ZXR, or any soundcard for that matter, since the DAC can be connected to the PC via USB cable. That said, I only use the ZXR card for decoding a game's sound effects since most DACs, including mine, don't do that. For music I don't even touch the ZXR.


----------



## dnLL

Good to know, thanks for the replies. Since my main desktop and my LANbox are really geared towards gaming, I guess I will stick to the Sound Blaster Z. I have an old JVC amp hooked to my HTPC for music/movies already, I might upgrade that whole audio system with a new receiver one day but it's not my priority right now. I'm using the old speakers that came with the receiver and Shure SHR440 headphones for my HTPC right now.


----------



## sygnus21

I think you'll be happy with the Z card as I still think the Creative Z series cards are good sounding cards. 
  
 Good luck.
  
 As a side note I can't believe the ZXR is going for $250 bucks. I bought mine new at $199 when it was first released; now it's 250!?!?! Wowser!


----------



## obobskivich

sygnus21 said:


> The hostile response is your interpretation, not my intention.
> 
> And I'm not here to debate what electronics the Teac is using as it's beyond my field of expertise.  I simply replied with what I thought was pertinent info pertaining to the discussion here. Had I known I was going to get into an electronics debate I would have done my homework before posting :bigsmile_face:
> 
> ...




Fair enough - we're good mate. 



mindbomb said:


> source games can use directsound3d with console commands. snd_legacy_surround in combination with a surround sound setting. You would need alchemy or asus gx to get this to work properly, though I'm not sure what advantages there would really be. One assumes hardware acceleration would be superior somehow.




To quote a great Ryan Reynolds bit - "but...WHY?" 

[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEZWYXPvmS8[/VIDEO]

Source games have touted their software audio since Half-Life 2 came out, and it works very well. Why force it into a legacy mode that isn't supported without shims in newer versions of Windows? Hardware acceleration was only ever a "thing" because of limited computational resources in older machines - in a way its similar to wanting an old MPEG card in your shiny new machine; its anachronistic. 



dnll said:


> I read the last 3-4 pages of this thread but I'm confused now. Looking at some other threads, I read that low impedance headphones could be a problem with the SB-Z because I would have to put the volume at like 5% and wouldn't be able to find quite a good volume since 6% would be too loud already (this is an example). Is that fixed (with some settings in the software) or I still need to be careful on what headphones to use?
> 
> I currently have bad HyperX Cloud headset that I plan to upgrade either for some cheap M50x or some expansive MMX300 cans (I will see with my budget this summer) but could have a good deal on a SB-Z right now and just want to make sure I won't have any problem. Is that (usually) a good bang for the buck for a non-audiophile gamer?
> 
> ...




No it won't damage anything, as multiple people have said. To add to the list of "low impedance stuff" that I've plugged into Recon3D and ZxR, go view my profile (everything in there that can be plugged into either of those cards, has been) - there's no problem. Now you won't be running at 100% volume, but either way you'll have usable volume control range even with very sensitive, low impedance cans (like the AT ESW9). 






sygnus21 said:


> Have you actually heard the ATH M50/X?
> 
> Anyway it really comes down to what one is looking for in music, gaming, or both. Example - since I don't do multiplayer gaming I don't need headphones with a built in mic so any headphone in that category wouldn't interest me.  Also since I prioritize my headphones towards music more so than gaming that also influences my headphone decision. That said, I found the M50's to be very good for gaming since they also do an excellent job of blocking out outside noise. However, I found that the Sennheiser HD700's to be even better because of their wide soundstage and airy sound. This makes the game's environment sound more open and in-depth. They also pick up the smallest detail in sound which allows you to easily hear enemies creeping up behind you. And yes, they can also drop the bass notes for that explosive sound. That said, the HD700's are $500+, where the ATH M50's are currently less than $120 bucks.
> 
> ...




I haven't heard the Kingston, but I've heard the original M50. I think they're over-hyped. They aren't bad or anything, but I think they're too often built into a giant; years ago when the AKG K701 were FOTM a poster made a comment along the lines of "these are often the first high-end headphone many listeners experience, and they get built into a giant because they sound great next to cheap junk; after folks have heard other high end cans, do they come back to the K701? That's more telling" 

And that's largely how I feel about the M50. There's nothing wrong at all if you like them, and there's nothing wrong at all with recommending them or anything of that sort, but I personally think they're over-hyped - they're boomy, clampy, have a narrow soundstage, and can sound congested and bloated with some material. Even in their price range there are other headphones I would personally prefer, but that's what it ultimately comes down to at this level of performance (and that extends all the way up to "exotic" headphones, like their big brothers, the ATH-W5000): what do you personally prefer? 

IME gaming headsets are usually of inferior build and sound quality, but I don't know if that's changed in recent years - "cheap headphones" certainly have improved in the last ten years, so why couldn't headsets have improved as well? 




sygnus21 said:


> In short, you're worrying about nothing as most headphones fall into the 30 something Ohm range, including the Audio Technical ATH M50's, which is 36 Ohms. And depending who you ask "normal" can be somewhere between 16-100 or 200 and below... Wiki - Headphones (Impedance)
> 
> BTW most (though not always true) "audiophile" headphones tend to fall into the high impedance range. Though the Sennheiser HD700's ($500+) are not necessarily "high impedance" they are in the 150 Ohm range. Contrast that with Audio Technica's ATH R70x ($349) which come in at a whopping 470 Ohms.
> 
> ...




The ZxR had gain issues with my 12 ohm Sonys; it certainly played them but I had to run the gain/volume up significantly higher (and I would assume the card itself was probably getting warmer). That isn't all that surprising though - 32 ohms is usually bottom-end in most devices' specs, some will say 16 ohms, and lower than 16 ohms is usually a gamble, especially if you aren't at >110dB/mW (which my Sonys aren't). 

Something else to point out on higher end headphones (and this is true of studio cans, "audiophile" cans, and even things like the Beats Pro (whatever genre you put those into): they can generally take A LOT of power before they blow up. Like 1-2W (that's 1000-2000mW). Your ears will go pop way before the headphones will, in that case. 




dnll said:


> People here still say they don't have problems with the Z... so I guess it's fine.
> 
> Also... this:
> 
> ...




There is no "hardware audio processing" since Windows Vista. There are shims that can provide legacy compatibility for DirectSound3D H/W (which is NOT the same as "all" DirectSound - only some games ever used it), but that's for old games. New stuff is all software top-to-bottom, because that's the modern paradigm. There is nothing at all wrong about this either - modern CPUs are more than up to the task. You also have to remember, every Sound Blaster DSP had some pretty significant quirks in how it handled audio (Creative has been incredibly tight-lipped on SoundCore, which leads to various theories that its just a codec, or that it is in fact a DSP, but if it were a DSP - what is it actually doing?), and also generally introduced another layer of compatibility and stability concerns into a system (like every hardware audio solution that came before them also did). Software solutions, if done right (and most games these days just buy a commercial solution that has undergone significant testing and compatibility assurance, like Xaudio, WWise, or Miles), can be "theoretically perfect" and the point of loss is downstream (e.g. the actual playback hardware) - just like with digital music playback. 

This is probably relevant:
http://satsun.org/audio/




alexandrus said:


> Well, that's false about the Sound Core3D. The CPU/APU or whatever you want to call, the Sound Core3D chip that is, itself handles all the processing, in HARDWARE, obviously.
> The only things lost compared to the X-Fi series is the hardware support for EAX HD, EAX 5.0, whatever it's called, and X-RAM. But considering those haven't been used since before the PCI-e versions of the X-Fi were launched, it's not such a loss.




Creative has never openly disclosed what the SoundCore does or does not do. Some speculate that it performs "hardware audio" but that leaves us asking "to what extent." Conversely, it could just be a codec, which handles audio I/O, but isn't doing DSP calculations - that would make more sense in a post-Vista world, especially since Creative has abandoned any sort of hardware audio API (they dumped OpenAL a few years ago). 

The SoundCore does support EAX5 through ALchemy, although only a very few games ever implemented EAX5 (it came out right before Vista, and EAX was depreciated with Vista and the removal of DS3DHW) - Battlefield 2142 is one of them, and there's like 3 or 4 others; they're all old though (like ten years or more at this point). It does not have X-RAM, but X-RAM is not a software feature - its just a marketing brand for X-Fi's on-board DRAM buffer. Nothing has to be coded specifically to "use" X-RAM, because its handled by the drivers. Whether or not it ever provided a significant performance increase is of dubious merit. 

"EAX HD" or "EAX Advanced HD" were alternative branding names for EAX 3 and 4, which came out with the Audigy series. Not a lot of games use either of them, but there are more titles there than EAX5. Note that EAX is not itself an API, its an API extension library for DS3D - ALchemy is able to support both EAX and DS3D, while non-Creative shims generally only support through EAX2 (and this has existed since before the Vista switch; a lot of C-Media designs, for example, will support EAX1/2), which was used by significantly more games. 

Wikipedia has a list:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_games_with_EAX_support

It looks like the total count for EAX5 is:
Battlefield 2142
Mass Effect
BioShock
Killing Floor 2
and with patches/config hacks:
Unreal Tournament 2004
Quake 4

Largely its a deprecated feature, and supporting it is primarily only of interest for running old games. Given the direction Microsoft has gone with newer operating systems, support for other DirectX API features (e.g. DirectDraw, DirectShow, DDI5-7, etc), along with NTVDM, have been removed incrementally (and this isn't "evil" - a lot of these things are ancient and nothing has used them in years), and newer versions of Windows will themselves run into compatibility problems far beyond not supporting DS3DHW, so if you're really after old games, an older version of Windows and older hardware (with older drivers) may be a worthwhile consideration. This is especially true if you're after games that primarily run (or expect to run) in a DOS or Win9x environment, and rely on vendor-specific APIs or libraries connected to vendor-specific h/w acceleration (and Creative has a place in this). If you're playing newer games (especially since ~2006), this is probably a side of computing or gaming you'll never see, and things should "just work" in many cases. 




sygnus21 said:


> Oh and my usage of the ZXR card and the ACM module I experienced NO signal degradation at all. That said I no longer use the module as I have a DAC for my headphone amp. I also don't need a mic as I don't do multiplayer gaming. I'm a huge gamer, I just don't do multiplayer. That said, if I did need it, I'd have no problems using it again.




The ACM was measured some pages back, and shown not to cause any significant/appreciable difference in signal quality.


----------



## bcschmerker4

Speaking of SBX, Creative Laboratories® has revived the E-MU 10k2 platform in the form of the SB1550 Sound Blaster® Audigy RX™ PCIe 3.0 x1 audio card, which uses an ASMedia PCIe-to-PCI bridge to wed the CA10300-IAT DSP/codec (introduced in the Audigy4 series) to the host system; it packs a built-in headphone amplifier of unconfirmed manufacture (probably the same one used in the PCIe-native SB1500 and SB1510 SoundCore3D cards) for the Front Audio headphone jack.  The SB1550 has two rear and one front stereo microphone inputs, one rear line-level stereo input, 7.1 output via one TRS (Front L/R) and two TRRS (Rear L/R plus Side R; Front Center plus Subwoofer plus Side L) jacks, and a rear TOSlink digital-audio output.  As of 31 March 2016 I can confirm that the SB1550 has similar basic audio effects to the original Audigy models under Microsoft® Windows® 6.1.7601, using the included software.  (One disadvantage I found in the included software is lack of direct access to the dual mix busses, a priority of the Advanced LinUX Sound Architecture Project but not of either Creative or Microsoft.)
  
 Anybody done a comparo of the SB1500 or SB1510 against the SB1550 yet?


----------



## obobskivich

alexandrus said:


> Well, it should be quite easy to discover if Sound Core3D CPU actually does the DSP in hardware or not.
> See the system CPU usage with the SBZ and it's software when using sound processing in any movie or such, with the SBX software, and then measure the CPU usage on the same system using the same DSP effects but with a different sound card, preferably the onboard crappy3D chip, using the Creative X-Fi MB3 software which is basically the SBX or Sound Blaster Z Control Panel software but for generic use.
> It's not rocket surgery




Except that the CPU load for software audio these days is so low as to not be a significant problem for modern systems - "CPU usage" as reported by Windows is a relative, not absolute, measure (and you're also only looking at per-process loading as an approximate snapshot). And that's assuming the Creative drivers aren't freaking out and dragging very heavily on the Windows audio services for no good reason (its a real thing, it happens sometimes). And even with all of THAT aside, ALchemy will incur a CPU load as it seeks to translate calls between a software application and the Creative drivers (and you aren't "on the hardware" with most of that "sound effect" stuff). And finally, what's to say that Creative doesn't cook things a little with their stand-alone application to make it perform worse than if it were running on their hardware? They certainly wouldn't be the first IHV to do that kind of stuff in drivers. My point is, this is all speculative, and without some sort of official explanation on Creative's part about SoundCore, it will remain speculative. 

Here's a professional review that says its all smoke and mirrors in drivers:
http://www.hardocp.com/article/2012/05/01/sound_blaster_recon3d_fatal1ty_card_review/3 (although, the review is wrong about the SoundCore introducing 24/192 to a Creative-branded product - that was an advertised feature of the Audigy 2 ZS and some X-Fi boards as well) 

Now, how much does this matter in the grand scheme of things? Not very much. Modern Windows doesn't support DS3DHW and the entire thing has been deprecated for a decade at this point. Game developers aren't using it, and the only people that it really impacts are those who want to run old games and need a compatibility layer. C-Media and Realtek have been implementing this for years (even when DS3DHW was still alive and kicking), and Creative has joined them in recent years with ALchemy. 




bcschmerker4 said:


> Speaking of SBX, Creative Laboratories® has revived the E-MU 10k2 platform in the form of the SB1550 Sound Blaster® Audigy RX™ PCIe 3.0 x1 audio card, which uses an ASMedia PCIe-to-PCI bridge to wed the CA10300-IAT DSP/codec (introduced in the Audigy4 series) to the host system; it packs a built-in headphone amplifier of unconfirmed manufacture (probably the same one used in the PCIe-native SB1500 and SB1510 SoundCore3D cards) for the Front Audio headphone jack.  The SB1550 has two rear and one front stereo microphone inputs, one rear line-level stereo input, 7.1 output via one TRS (Front L/R) and two TRRS (Rear L/R plus Side R; Front Center plus Subwoofer plus Side L) jacks, and a rear TOSlink digital-audio output.  As of 31 March 2016 I can confirm that the SB1550 has similar basic audio effects to the original Audigy models under Microsoft® Windows® 6.1.7601, using the included software.  (One disadvantage I found in the included software is lack of direct access to the dual mix busses, a priority of the Advanced LinUX Sound Architecture Project but not of either Creative or Microsoft.)
> 
> Anybody done a comparo of the SB1500 or SB1510 against the SB1550 yet?




No idea on sonics, but as I recall the "new" Audigy cards lack the DOS and 9x compatibility of the older PCI models. Its an interesting platform to be sure, since there's little real application for that DSP hardware acceleration in a contemporary Windows environment. Also worth pointing out, all Audigy DSPs have the SRC bug, but it isn't persistent in the 10k2.5 cards (anything that relies on the DSP will experience it though).


----------



## sygnus21

obobskivich said:


> "
> 
> I haven't heard the Kingston, but I've heard the original M50. I think they're over-hyped. They aren't bad or anything, but I think they're too often built into a giant; years ago when the AKG K701 were FOTM a poster made a comment along the lines of "these are often the first high-end headphone many listeners experience, and they get built into a giant because they sound great next to cheap junk; after folks have heard other high end cans, do they come back to the K701? That's more telling"
> 
> And that's largely how I feel about the M50. There's nothing wrong at all if you like them, and there's nothing wrong at all with recommending them or anything of that sort, but I personally think they're over-hyped - they're boomy, clampy, have a narrow soundstage, and can sound congested and bloated with some material. Even in their price range there are other headphones I would personally prefer, but that's what it ultimately comes down to at this level of performance (and that extends all the way up to "exotic" headphones, like their big brothers, the ATH-W5000): what do you personally prefer?


 
  
To be clear here, I'm not here to promote or defend the M50's. I simply stated what "I" have, and what "my" thoughts of them were.  If "you" feel they're "over-hyped" then they're over hyped to you, and that fine.  I like them, and that’s what matters to me.
  
That said, no, they’re certainly not the best, but I definitely wouldn’t call them “boomy” – they’re definitely nowhere near the Beats phones.  Yes, their soundstage is small and somewhat lacking, but they certainly aren’t “congested”.  And don’t forget these are classified as the monitor headphones which means their frequency response is supposed to be flat…. No heavy bass or excessive highs (treble). I think the M50X, nearly meets that criterial, and certainly at their price range.
  
That said, I certainly don’t think they’re the “best” headphone, and overall don’t think they sound better than my Sennheiser HD700’s. 
  
What they do though is provide a different option depending on what I’m listening to as very few headphones can truly meet the demands of ALL music. This is also why most people have more than one pair of headphones.  So for me, when I want to listen to Jazz I plug in my HD700, when I want listen to electronica I plug in my M50X.
  
BTW having both the original M50, and now the M50X, I think the M50X has a cleaner extended bass range than the M50. I also don’t think it’s as bass heavy as the M50… Not that the M50’s is bass heavy anyway.
  
At the end of the day all headphones aren’t for everyone. You just have to find what suits you.
  
I just wanted to clear up your new counter to my new post. 
  
Peace my brother


----------



## dnLL

So in the end, 1) it doesn't matter whether or not it has hardware or software audio processing and 2) people saying other people were wrong are finally the ones who were wrong. I love forums. 

Anyway, you seem to know your stuff obobskivich, so as far as positional audio goes for modern games, how good are MMX-300 hooked to a SB-Z?

I'm still thinking a bit about the ACM, if I plan to keep that thing for a long time, I probably might as well purchase it, I can't regret having it...


----------



## obobskivich

dnll said:


> So in the end, 1) it doesn't matter whether or not it has hardware or software audio processing and 2) people saying other people were wrong are finally the ones who were wrong. I love forums.








> Anyway, you seem to know your stuff obobskivich, so as far as positional audio goes for modern games, how good are MMX-300 hooked to a SB-Z?




I've never heard the MMX-300 and I'm not a huge fan of Beyerdynamic headphones (and yes I appreciate the irony of this after saying a few posts up that I like bright cans). I would imagine it would do fine though; the Recon3D and ZxR never had problems with my MV1 (which are also 250 ohm, like many Beyer cans), or any of my lower impedance cans (in that weird "low impedance" swing-range of anything from 12 to 100 ohms; I know Beyer has some 32 ohm offerings), and offers SBX.* I don't know how the mic input behaves without Creative's beam mic hooked up - I'd assume it works just fine but you probably don't get some of the noise cancelling/processing stuff that goes with the beam mic, but with a headset you probably don't need it. 

* This is all post-processing. Whether or not you like it depends on you. Modern games will run on software audio and many offer a "headphones" mode that should be selected when using headphones. For those that don't, the newer Sound Blaster drivers automate the old "set Windows to 5.1 and set the output to stereo and downmix it for better surround" trick when set to "Headphones" which is mostly just a time/effort saver (can't knock it though), but again the "mix" is coming from software, and SBX is just able to do stuff "on top of" it at playback. There's comparisons on YouTube between SBX, Dolby Headphone, CMSS, etc - some of them have probably been linked in this thread before, and they aren't hard to find (and I'd say go look on your own because there's enough of them out there now that you can probably find one using a game you actually play). 

The Z will also, like the rest of the SoundCore line, support ALchemy so you get legacy DirectSound support for older games that need it, but that's really nothing novel compared to other contemporary solutions. The only real bonus with ALchemy is that it will support EAX 3/4/5 properly, which afaik nobody else does/can (because EAX is proprietary to Creative), so if that's a factor its worth considering as well. But if you aren't married to EAX, the DirectSound support isn't unique to ALchemy, is basically my point. 



> I'm still thinking a bit about the ACM, if I plan to keep that thing for a long time, I probably might as well purchase it, I can't regret having it...




It doesn't hurt anything, and it includes the beam mic built-in. If you position it right, the beam mic itself is actually pretty usable. Shame they don't sell the ACM separately (I actually have emailed and asked) - I miss the days of them selling the "accessory upgrade module" (e.g. Live Drive, Fatal1ty Bay, etc) as separate upgrades for their cards. If you just want the volume-control-on-a-chain thing, there are stand-alone devices from Sennheiser and Koss (and probably others) that do the same thing, look for "in-line volume controls" or similar phrases.


----------



## Alexandrus

obobskivich said:


> Except that the CPU load for software audio these days is so low as to not be a significant problem for modern systems - "CPU usage" as reported by Windows is a relative, not absolute, measure (and you're also only looking at per-process loading as an approximate snapshot). And that's assuming the Creative drivers aren't freaking out and dragging very heavily on the Windows audio services for no good reason (its a real thing, it happens sometimes). And even with all of THAT aside, ALchemy will incur a CPU load as it seeks to translate calls between a software application and the Creative drivers (and you aren't "on the hardware" with most of that "sound effect" stuff). And finally, what's to say that Creative doesn't cook things a little with their stand-alone application to make it perform worse than if it were running on their hardware? They certainly wouldn't be the first IHV to do that kind of stuff in drivers. My point is, this is all speculative, and without some sort of official explanation on Creative's part about SoundCore, it will remain speculative.
> 
> Here's a professional review that says its all smoke and mirrors in drivers:
> http://www.hardocp.com/article/2012/05/01/sound_blaster_recon3d_fatal1ty_card_review/3 (although, the review is wrong about the SoundCore introducing 24/192 to a Creative-branded product - that was an advertised feature of the Audigy 2 ZS and some X-Fi boards as well)
> ...


 
 Are you serious ?
 I did not say it would be a problem load for the system CPU, but I said it's easy to determine if DSP is done in hardware or not. And it freaking is.
 What I was missing is that it doesn't even have to be that way, as it's already clear that all DSP is done in hardware.
 SounedCore3D has been renamed to Axx1, and all devices using Axx1 chip are doing the very same DSP effects even standalone, without being connected to a PC or other device.


----------



## obobskivich

alexandrus said:


> Are you serious ?
> I did not say it would be a problem load for the system CPU, but I said it's easy to determine if DSP is done in hardware or not. And it freaking is.
> What I was missing is that it doesn't even have to be that way, as it's already clear that all DSP is done in hardware.
> SounedCore3D has been renamed to Axx1, and all devices using Axx1 chip are doing the very same DSP effects even standalone, without being connected to a PC or other device.




Well, it may be "very freaking clear" to you, but numerous reviewers and other users don't seem to have such impeccable powers of clairvoyance, nor has Creative made any official statement one way or the other (apart from describing it as an "audio and voice" processor and listing SBX and CrystalVoice as its "novel features"). Most likely the chip is not doing "hardware accelerated audio" in the same vein as the Audigy of yesteryear, due to the significant changes in Windows' underlying audio stack (e.g. there is no DS3DHW), but it may be capable of performing more than just I/O routing (e.g. it reportedly has ADC and DAC functionality built-in, which the original Recon3D used (as far as I'm aware the Z and X series don't, however, use the built-in ADC/DAC)).

This is also largely an immaterial debate in the context of contemporary software, and especially for music or movie playback.


----------



## Alexandrus

Well, perhaps you can read my post again, especially the last phrase.
 If by clairvoyance you mean the ability to actually read a post and draw some logical conclusions, then yes, clearly some reviewers and users do not seem to have that ability


----------



## obobskivich

alexandrus said:


> Well, perhaps you can read my post again, especially the last phrase.
> If by clairvoyance you mean the ability to actually read a post and draw some logical conclusions, then yes, clearly some reviewers and users do not seem to have that ability




I'm not convinced that the SoundCore is the same chip as used in the X7 and other external products, however even if it is there are likely other components in those products to enable them to operate as free-standing devices. That having been said, there's a big distinction between hardware assisted or hardware based post-processing (e.g. SBX) and hardware-assisted or hardware-accelerated "rendering" of sound (e.g. DS3DHW) - a lot of AV receivers and preamps will also perform post-processing functions as part of their surround decoding package, but that doesn't mean they're capable of generating the audio signal from a game or similar, which (as I understood it) is where the real question over the SoundCore lies (and I'll admit to not understanding why its so important whether or not it does or doesn't have the ability to do this, not only because its irrelevant for modern software, but because even when hardware-accelerated audio was a "thing" the legitimate *need* for it died out years ago, as CPUs have become significantly faster). 

It is worth pointing out that the SoundCore does not support MIDI, or work in Windows 9x or XP, so the only way it would ever approach hardware-based audio is via OpenAL or ALchemy, if its even doing that in hardware. There are plenty of examples of non-Creative cards that rely entirely on sophisticated driver stacks to provide OpenAL, DS3D, EAX, etc functionality and do a great job at it, so overall its not a "killer app" like it may have been in the early 1990s. 

Finally, one avenue where a software-based solution likely has a consistent leg up is with SRC. All of Creative's cards prior to SoundCore were dogged by quirks or problems with their implementations of SRC (the X-Fi being the "least bad"), but I haven't heard any complaining about SoundCore cards and SRC, which leads me to believe it likely uses a highly-accurate software solution, like many other contemporary HD Audio configurations. 

None of this should really be viewed as a negative for the SoundCore - there's still a good case to be made for stand-alone soundcards even in 2016.


----------



## Alexandrus

obobskivich said:


> I'm not convinced that the SoundCore is the same chip as used in the X7 and other external products, however even if it is there are likely other components in those products to enable them to operate as free-standing devices. That having been said, there's a big distinction between hardware assisted or hardware based post-processing (e.g. SBX) and hardware-assisted or hardware-accelerated "rendering" of sound (e.g. DS3DHW) - a lot of AV receivers and preamps will also perform post-processing functions as part of their surround decoding package, but that doesn't mean they're capable of generating the audio signal from a game or similar, which (as I understood it) is where the real question over the SoundCore lies (and I'll admit to not understanding why its so important whether or not it does or doesn't have the ability to do this, not only because its irrelevant for modern software, but because even when hardware-accelerated audio was a "thing" the legitimate *need* for it died out years ago, as CPUs have become significantly faster).
> 
> It is worth pointing out that the SoundCore does not support MIDI, or work in Windows 9x or XP, so the only way it would ever approach hardware-based audio is via OpenAL or ALchemy, if its even doing that in hardware. There are plenty of examples of non-Creative cards that rely entirely on sophisticated driver stacks to provide OpenAL, DS3D, EAX, etc functionality and do a great job at it, so overall its not a "killer app" like it may have been in the early 1990s.
> 
> ...


 

 Do you EVER stay on topic or do you just like to talk about stuff ?
 Who the heck ever mentioned OpenAL, ALchemy, DS3DHW and so on ?
 I just said DSP, SBX is just that, DSP.
 As for you not being convinced, well, you're entitled to your opinion, although SoundCore3D having been rebranded SB Axx1 is simply a fact. I know, I am clairvoyant and I can read and so on, when and if you discover that gift in you I am sure you'll find the same conclusions as I did.


----------



## Brooko

[Mod Comment]
  
 We've just had to lock the thread while the mess was cleaned up. To the posters who were involved - and you know who you are - please refrain from the current vein of antagonism.  Next time we'll have to eject people from the thread, and no-one wants that.


----------



## darky_mtp

I succed using my SBz under Linux Ubuntu.
 I have to use a modified kernel.


----------



## NoOneLt

Anyone have problem that Foobar stops playing ASIO after some days/weeks when in Stereo Direct mode? Recently reinstalled Win 10 x64 + latest ZxR drivers, set to stereo direct in CP and ASIO in foobar, worked fine. One day i got message "Unrecoverable playback error: Could not query ASIO buffer sizes" tried to fix it somehow with no luck... Only full driver reinstall fixed this. Now after some time same thing happened... Though CP 2.0 mode works fine with ASIO..
  
 While playing with settings accidentally fixed this by setting CP to 2.0, starting playback in Foobar, then changed to Stereo Direct in CP and while CP is "not responding" started Foobar playback, got message but instantly started song again, and it worked... And noticeably louder than 2.0.
  
 Strange issue, anyone else came into this?


----------



## huspas

I have had Creative Zxr for 3 years. I can say it is very functional soundcard for daily uses but nothing more. It has background noise and headphone output is not powerful for planars especially for hifimans.


----------



## darky_mtp

You can ear noise from 124 dB SNR ?


----------



## Evshrug

There's different sources of noise... I'm no audio engineer, but with sensitive IEMs I get a little constant background hiss from my standard X7. There's quieter background on my E5, and the E1 is totally silent, but normal headphones don't pick up the hiss/noise and the E1 is too weak of an amp for low-sensitivity harder to drive headphones.


----------



## darky_mtp

I don't have IEM but I guess that ZxR with very sensitive devices like Shure E5 is a mismatch.
 ZxR is designed toward high impedance, hard to drive headphones.
 Using DT880/250 with a Z, I don't have background noise at all and plenty of power.


----------



## NoOneLt

huspas said:


> I have had Creative Zxr for 3 years. I can say it is very functional soundcard for daily uses but nothing more. It has background noise and headphone output is not powerful for planars especially for hifimans.




It can make you deaf, at least my can's say so, and what noise....?


----------



## genclaymore

Being louder and being correctly driven are two totally different things. Just because it get loud, it does not equal to property supplying the current that the HE-500 needs to sound the way that it should. All it really doing is making you hear the HE-500 very loud while performing very well on the sound blaster zxr's headphone amp. Those HE-500 would benefit greatly from an external headphone amp. I have personally used an HE-500 those headphone's and need a lot of current, I haven't seen an sound card that even supply at-least 1W for them or even 800-900mw for that matter.


----------



## NoOneLt

No one says someone should get ZxR to drive planars, getting ZxR exclusively for that would make no sense... also specifications of ZxR is not a secret, and it can normally drive regular phones with normal sensitivity up to 600 ohms to pretty loud levels. And with HE-500 maybe it has something to do with high ZxR output impedance and very low HE-500 sensitivity.. Though i did'n had any problems with ZxR + M50X, but of course  they are much more sensitive. 400i ann S sounds fine also.


----------



## genclaymore

I know no one was telling people to buy an Zxr to power the HE-500, I hope not as that would be an nightmare.The reason why the ZXR won't work that well with the HE-500, is due to the steep current that the headphone need at it's 38 ohm's impedance which I mentioned already. I learned the hard way with that, when I first got the HE-500, i had an little dot 2 MK at the time and I to go months until I got something that could feed them the power they needed. I never used the HE400i/s but i sure that's alot more easier to supply current to then the HE-500. Now I had used an DT880 premium 600 with an STX before in the past and it worked fine,but I don't recall the reason why I moved to an headphone amp from plugging it directly into the STX hp amp.
  
 Most people here know not to plug the HE-500's into an sound card, but I have seen couple of people else where that don't know and do it. Then they wonder why every thing is off and blame the headphone's, when its the sound card hp amp at fault, a couple of days ago I seen some one buying an asus strix soar just to power the HE-500 but then they thought the headphone was high imp and not an very low imp.


----------



## NoOneLt

genclaymore said:


> Now I had used an DT880 premium 600 with an STX before in the past and it worked fine,but I don't recall the reason why I moved to an headphone amp from plugging it directly into the STX hp


 
 Maybe it was just an itch for upgrade  
  
  


genclaymore said:


> I never used the HE400i/s but i sure that's alot more easier to supply current to then the HE-500.


 
 I just tried 400i with ZxR again, not an A/B but in 600 ohm mode it drives them pretty loud and i don't fell they sound bad, though with Vali 2 sound seems bit more pleasant, not day and night difference, i would forget the difference in 3 minutes, but with Vali 2 ZxR works in Stereo direct mode, maybe this also makes difference. 
  
 And i don't like loud, so what is loud for me could not be that loud for someone else.


----------



## Doomjoon

So, this thread has been dead for about a month, but it is kind of an official one, and I'll revive it with an experience/review of op-amps I have recently acquired for my ZxR. They definitely deserve it.
 Sparkos Lab's SS3602, they have been mentioned a few times on these forums, and when they were, people talked about their amazing performance, expensive price, and their rather hefty size. All of these are true, but they bring much better sound than many other op amps of the same price, as long as you can give them a proper shove in there.
  

 -"Mother, do you know what THESE are?"
 -"Uhh... toothpicks?"
 -"These are operational amplifiers. That cost almost 80$. Made in America."
  

  
 I've only used the I/V slots for SS3602's, I don't care about the buffers since I'll only use the headphone out. If you need buffers though, I've heard others recommend using SS3601's for that. Also notice that these are rather big, which produces two potential problems:
  
 -You won't be able to fit the EMI shield back, but the EMI shield really doesn't matter that much, especially in my case since I'm pretty sure that my GPU's backplate, which sits directly below my ZxR, acts as an EMI shield of it's own. Also I've heard people say that the EMI shield can actually cause problems, probably has something to do with grounding, I don't know. And last, if you really want the EMI shield, I've also heard that it might be possible to cut holes in the EMI shield for the amps to pop out.
 -This also makes the sound card take up considerable space in your actual case, in fact, it would be best if you could reserve 2x PCI slots for the card alone. If you can't, you might be able to squeeze it in there like I did, but you might cause damage to your card or whatever is blocking the card, as it will make the card sit diagonally. My system appears to be working fine though.
  
  
 Now, let's talk about actual sound performance:
  
 MUSIC: I'm definitely very satisfied with these. The amps produce a neutral signature, it doesn't favor anything, but at the same time it somehow makes everything shine. The bass is tight and punchy, which is precisely what my fanatically neutral DT880's need. The highs are absolutely brutal, in a good way, and the mids are pleasant and give great backbone to music, although I feel like they -MIGHT- be a little bit recessed. Could be wrong though. They give a greater sense of imaging and 3D space in music. Every note is detailed and has character, every harmony is layered and yet whole, and the harmonies are given a lot of depth and height (and I'm not talking about sound signature).
  
 The main reason why I am so self-surprisingly satisfied with these is a bit more subjective topic. I'm an avid listener of avant-garde music that focuses on atmosphere more than the actual "music". Various modern forms of metal, ambient, jazz, post-rock, things like that. And in this music crispy clear highs aren't always a good thing, and bloated bass isn't always a bad thing. It's atmospheric music, it chases atmosphere, not sound quality, and sometimes it has to sacrifice sound quality to bring more atmosphere. But the thing is, these op amps don't really ruin it. It's up to the musicians and producers to decide how something is supposed to sound like, and these op amps make whatever they made shine. I know it's a word I constantly use, but I have no other way of describing it. Still though, I'm not sure if I can really call it "better", but it is different, and I think that I'm gonna stick to it, as more often than not, I do like the difference.
  
 However if you don't listen to this type of music, then these op amps are no-brainer. At least as long as the aforementioned problems of price and size don't bother you.
  
 GAMING/MOVIES: Well, as you have probably already gathered, to use a crude image, the bassy impact of a sword hitting flesh, and the afterward treble of the sword slicing through it, cannot sound better than with these op amps. This is especially true with my DT880's, they complement each other so well. The killer highs of the DT880's are brought to an even greater glory, and the deep but neutral bass is made punchier. Everything from explosions, bullets whizzing around, and arms clashing, to dialogues, footsteps, and wind, is in an apex of sound. I really cannot imagine them being better.
  
 What else is there to say? They are amazing and well worth the cost.


----------



## bcschmerker4

Thanks, @Doomjoon, for the test results on the SS3602.  I already have 'em under consideration for the I-V of my ASUS® XONAR® STX™, and have a modified RFI shield under consideration, as both my 'puters put the PCIe x1 slot right next the PCIe x16, which is why I picked the STX in the first place.  The SS3602's just need some clearance, and I'm looking at the sort of jigs necessary to hammer appropriate-size bumps in a stock-replacement shield.  Similar mods would be needed for the Creative® SB1270, SB1356, and SB1510.


----------



## Doomjoon

Indeed, but as I said, EMI shields really don't seem to do all that much, especially if you have a quality power supply, and a GPU backplate also seems to act as an EMI shield, but I could be wrong on that. In any case, lot of problems attributed to EMI are usually not EMI at all. So yeah, the SS3602's are worth sacrificing the shield for. But of course, if you can make it work with a shield, all the better.
  
  
 EDIT: Although, I wonder, what would happen if I were to put the anti-static bag that the amps came in, or that my GPU came in, in between of my GPU and the ZxR. Probably a bad idea actually, since they are usually conductive on the outside.


----------



## bigbeard

I have a question about sbx pro studio.
  
 I have a sound blaster z, HD800, and DAC/AMP. I always gamed at 67% surround, and the sound was very clean and also distinct.
  
 However, I also have an X7 (don't use it on my pc), and in that thread, people recommend to use 100% surround for immersion. I tried this on my Z, and I feel like the sound is mixed together/muddled, lowering the sound quality. At the same time, I feel like its easier to pinpoint a sound. At 67%, I could clearly hear the direction of sound, but pinpointing it is more difficult.
  
 What do you guys have to say about this? What do you use? Also, does the x7 have better sound processing than the sound blaster z for surround? Should I just use that for my pc?


----------



## PurpleAngel

bigbeard said:


> I have a question about sbx pro studio.
> I have a sound blaster z, HD800, and DAC/AMP. I always gamed at 67% surround, and the sound was very clean and also distinct.
> However, I also have an X7 (don't use it on my pc), and in that thread, people recommend to use 100% surround for immersion. I tried this on my Z, and I feel like the sound is mixed together/muddled, lowering the sound quality. At the same time, I feel like its easier to pinpoint a sound. At 67%, I could clearly hear the direction of sound, but pinpointing it is more difficult.
> What do you guys have to say about this? What do you use? Also, does the x7 have better sound processing than the sound blaster z for surround? Should I just use that for my pc?


 
  
 I doubt the SB-X7 would offer better headphone surround sound, then the SB-Z
  
 Did you disable the motherboard's on-board audio, in the BIOS, when you installed the SB-Z card.
 There is a small chance active on-board might have a negative effect on an add-on internal sound card.
  
 If setting the volume to 67% works best, might as well just leave it that way,


----------



## bigbeard

Yeah I definitely have audio disabled on board.
  
 Maybe I am just used to the separation of 67% because I was using it for years. What do you use, and why?


----------



## jincuteguy

purpleangel said:


> I doubt the SB-X7 would offer better headphone surround sound, then the SB-Z
> 
> Did you disable the motherboard's on-board audio, in the BIOS, when you installed the SB-Z card.
> There is a small chance active on-board might have a negative effect on an add-on internal sound card.
> ...


 
  
 The X7 does in fact has better surround sound than the Z card.  I had both before and I can tell you that the X7 sounds a lot better and the surround sound is better.  At first I thought the surround sound would just be the same since they both have the same tech, but it does in fact sounds better on the X7.


----------



## PurpleAngel

jincuteguy said:


> The X7 does in fact has better surround sound than the Z card.  I had both before and I can tell you that the X7 sounds a lot better and the surround sound is better.  At first I thought the surround sound would just be the same since they both have the same tech, but it does in fact sounds better on the X7.


 
  
 I can easily understand the $400 X7 offering better audio quality, then the $80 SB-Z card.
 (the X7 having better DAC and op-amps)
 Can't understand how the X7 could offer better headphone surround sound?
 Not sure what hardware could be added to the X7, for improving surround sound?
 Or could the improved audio quality itself that make the surround sound noticeably better?


----------



## Fegefeuer

It's the analog part that makes all the difference (DAC/AMP), as should be expected. Both share the same SBX. So if anyone has a better DAC/AMP than the X7 then going out via optical from a SBZ is the better choice (unless you have consoles, then keeping the X7 could be wise). 
  
 If people want to improve on the X7 while keeping it then an amp is the easier choice as it's the weakest part. A Vali 2 is probably already better.


----------



## KamikazeIce

bigbeard said:


> I have a question about *sbx pro studio*.
> 
> I have a sound blaster z, HD800, and DAC/AMP. I always gamed at 67% surround, and the sound was very clean and also distinct.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Edited for emphasis.
 This is something I've been curious about as well but haven't really seen any discussion about it.
  
 Years ago I discovered binaural/HRTF, and thanks to this community learned the benefits of it to get further immersed in a game.
 I still have a few questions that remain unanswered... been to lazy to actually research my questions.
  
 Q) How exactly does this (SBX) work? I don't know how else to ask this, but I understand the basics and goal of the whole process.
 How and what does this do to the "source" signal, the "final" signal made by a game's engine which includes all positions and environmental processing?
 Since games output discrete channels (any exceptions?), how does SBX deal with games that output DOES NOT MATCH your configured channels (Game does not match Windows)?
 Some games partially "support" surround sound by adding silent channels, so how is this handled? Depending on how SBX mixes channels, this can be a big problem for sound source positioning in these games.
 How does the processing change/mix the discrete source channels as you increase or decrease the processing level?
  
 Are there really any differences in SBX between products besides hardware/DACs? I ask as I've seen people say that 67% is the default setting. I have an Omni and the default is 40%.

 There is a little red arrow marking the default setting below the slider grip. Is this arrow at 67% on other devices? If yes, I wonder if these different default settings are truly different or if it's visual only and both 40% and 67% really sound the same. I don't have any other SBX devices, so I can't really test this myself.
  
  
 Does anyone know of a way to test SBX (or others)? IMO we shouldn't be using standard test files, like for speaker configuration/phasing for Home Theatre. We need something that can do dynamic positioning in real time just like a game, but unlike a game we need to have some control over this. I wonder how processing soundstage really looks in the various HRTF methods. Is their soundstage a sphere, cone, cube, hallway? What I mean is, lets take a lightsaber sound and have it circle us and never changing distance. Let's just say we all think it sounds like it's 10 feet away. With SBX processing, does it maintain this distance? Does it stay circular, or change to another shape? Does it transition between angles smoothly and evenly or does it speed up and/or slow down only at specific angles?


----------



## thuNDa

bigbeard said:


> I have a question about sbx pro studio.
> 
> I have a sound blaster z, HD800, and DAC/AMP. I always gamed at 67% surround, and the sound was very clean and also distinct.
> 
> ...


 
 100% surround wouldn't be immersion for me, but confusion.
 As a former user from the X-Fi's CMSS-3D, ~30% works best for me:
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/623079/creative-sound-blaster-new-series-z-zx-zxr/2520#post_11059980


----------



## Kenjiwing

Guys I plan on reading the thread but wanted to ask this first.. I have a soundblaster z and a little dot mk 3 and want to hook my amp into my soundcard so that I have surrond with the card and the headphone amp.
  
 I took a single to rca cable into the headphone port of the soundblaster z then ran the white/red into my amp and then my headphones plug into the amp. Currently when I turn my amp off sound works just fine and if I turn the volume knob on my amp nothing happens its like my amp is being bypassed completely.. any idea how to fix this?


----------



## darky_mtp

Hello.
  
 When your amp is off, you ear sound from headphones ?


----------



## Kenjiwing

Yes when the amp is off sound is coming from the headphones and the soundcard I assume


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

purpleangel said:


> I can easily understand the $400 X7 offering better audio quality, then the $80 SB-Z card.
> (the X7 having better DAC and op-amps)
> Can't understand how the X7 could offer better headphone surround sound?
> Not sure what hardware could be added to the X7, for improving surround sound?
> Or could the improved audio quality itself that make the surround sound noticeably better?


 

 I know why, also the cheaper G5 (~$125) and E5 (189~$200) have better surround processing than the Z/Zx/ZxR cards and that's because the simple fact that Creative ****ed up virtual surround processing / multi channel speakers processing on the Z cards and it behaves as if it's a stereo signal when used with headphones meanwhile on G5/E5/X7 you are able to use 5.1/7.1 virtual surround speaker config at which the signal is processed as a multichannel sound signal and then downmixed into stereo. Z cards just handles it as a stereo from beginning so no downmixing or anything so no proper multichannel audio signal processing. Almost everyone more serious about gaming knows the trick to use 5.1 speaker setting in windows with headphones but with Z cards it doesn't work properly, it gives a plain "stereo" sound. Therefore I personally even preferred using Realtek ALC1150 /w onboard Texas NI5532 amps on my mobo versus ZxR as the Realtek does 5.1 channels to headphone/stereo conversion properly and it gives better surround processing when I compare everything disabled. 

 I've wanted to give E5 or G5 a try but I have some issues with both those, E5 not supporting 5.1 speaker (only 7.1 and from my experience 5.1 works slightly better than 7.1 with headphones and games generally have better support for 5.1 vs the rather unusual 7.1 setup). G5 again you can pick both 5.1 and 7.1 but it has bunch of red lights that cannot be shut off and it doesn't have support for bluetooth that I'd have gladly had that E5 does. X7 I think supported both 5.1 and 7.1 virtual surround but it's rather big in size versus E5/G5 and it's expensive and I don't have much faith in Creative for audio performance, I'd be suprised if you got more like than $150~200 worth performing audiophile brand USB DAC performance.


----------



## franzdom

I have the Z card and am thinking of getting into a DAC & HP amp. So my question is when you use the optical out of the Z card does it do anything for me or is it the same as using the optical out from my motherboard?
 I mean is the Creative optical output a bypass or is it proprocessed & equalized etc by the Creative software?


----------



## thuNDa

rpgwizard said:


> I know why, also the cheaper G5 (~$125) and E5 (189~$200) have better surround processing than the Z/Zx/ZxR cards and that's because the simple fact that Creative ****ed up virtual surround processing / multi channel speakers processing on the Z cards and it behaves as if it's a stereo signal when used with headphones meanwhile on G5/E5/X7 you are able to use 5.1/7.1 virtual surround speaker config at which the signal is processed as a multichannel sound signal and then downmixed into stereo. Z cards just handles it as a stereo from beginning so no downmixing or anything so no proper multichannel audio signal processing. Almost everyone more serious about gaming knows the trick to use 5.1 speaker setting in windows with headphones but with Z cards it doesn't work properly, it gives a plain "stereo" sound. Therefore I personally even preferred using Realtek ALC1150 /w onboard Texas NI5532 amps on my mobo versus ZxR as the Realtek does 5.1 channels to headphone/stereo conversion properly and it gives better surround processing when I compare everything disabled.


 
  





  
 This is tricky to encode, but i guess you want to say that the SB-Z cards are bad, because they don't process 5.1 to virtual surround when SBX-Surround is actually *OFF*.
 LOL, how dare you creative...


----------



## thuNDa

franzdom said:


> I have the Z card and am thinking of getting into a DAC & HP amp. So my question is when you use the optical out of the Z card does it do anything for me or is it the same as using the optical out from my motherboard?
> I mean is the Creative optical output a bypass or is it proprocessed & equalized etc by the Creative software?


 
  
 When using optical out on the SB-Z, you still get all the driver features like SBX Pro Studio.


----------



## franzdom

So would it be doing anything more for me if I had the ZxR? ... same conditions, optical out etc.


----------



## thuNDa

franzdom said:


> So would it be doing anything more for me if I had the ZxR? ... same conditions, optical out etc.


 

 no, if you want to go over optical out, the cheapest card of the line(your SB-Z) is as good as the ZxR.


----------



## franzdom

thunda said:


> no, if you want to go over optical out, the cheapest card of the line(your SB-Z) is as good as the ZxR.


 





 Thank you!


----------



## DangerClose

franzdom said:


> I have the Z card and am thinking of getting into a DAC & HP amp. So my question is when you use the optical out of the Z card does it do anything for me or is it the same as using the optical out from my motherboard?
> I mean is the Creative optical output a bypass or is it proprocessed & equalized etc by the Creative software?


 
  
 My SBZ sounds different through its SPDIF than through the mobo.  A bit less dynamic.  Less "full" sound, cymbals don't crash as strong, etc.


----------



## franzdom

I will try both when Bifrost arrives. I have optical out onboard the back of the motherboard, EVGA Z170 Classified K. This should be a fun comparison to the Soundblaster Z card's digital output and processing.


----------



## Radical_53

@RPGWiZaRD  Is what @thuNDa says correct? Was that how your post was meant to be understood? 

 I swapped my X-Fi Titanium HD for the ZXR and tested both of them head to head in different games. Positional audio in Black Ops 2 was done exceptionally well with the ZXR (with SBX on, of course).


----------



## Evshrug

bigbeard said:


> I have a question about sbx pro studio.
> 
> I have a sound blaster z, HD800, and DAC/AMP. I always gamed at 67% surround, and the sound was very clean and also distinct.
> 
> ...



Friend,
I'm a big believer that everybody's ears are different. I've seen the same sequence of a game processed with Dolby Headphone, CMSS-3D, and THX/SBX processing, and I preferred SBX while two friends preferred each of the other options. So, when I got my first Creative DSP (an external Recon3D USB), I played around with every setting and different portions of the slider (the triangle was under 67%, btw). The sense of a rear image actually being behind me got better as the % was raised, and eventually I wanted something that sounded as little like stereo as possible so "I" liked 100%. I've also seen people suggest 67%, 65%, 40%, 33%, 2%... Basically, play, and use whatever floats your boat! Every once in awhile I play at 67% or something, to get an idea of what some people like, but I keep coming back to my preference.

Z vs ZxR vs X7 vs E5/G5/Omni...
As far as I've understood, these all use the same mathematical algorithms for expressing directionality, by calculating time delay and occlusion. What makes them different is what you then do with the resultant 1's and 0's... The X7 has the best implementation of DAC and Amp yet, though the ZxR isn't far behind. Could be that, compared to the more entry level options, the sound output could just be clearer to reveal the subtle cues that trick our brain into hearing directions.



thunda said:


> 100% surround wouldn't be immersion for me, but confusion.
> As a former user from the X-Fi's CMSS-3D, ~30% works best for me:
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/623079/creative-sound-blaster-new-series-z-zx-zxr/2520#post_11059980



Yeah, see? Everyone's ear is different and will have their own preference. Yay for adjustability/customization!



thunda said:


> :confused_face_2:
> 
> This is tricky to encode, but i guess you want to say that the SB-Z cards are bad, because they don't process 5.1 to virtual surround when SBX-Surround is actually *OFF*.
> LOL, how dare you creative...



Yeah, there's a LOT going on with what he said. Statements that each device has different SBX processing as well as being recoignized by the computer differently. Wonder if he would second guess himself if Creative confirmed that the math used for SBX surround was identical? That said, the E5 did indeed used to only accept stereo input over USB, until a firmware update changed that, AND there's something odd about how the G5 surround sounds, which I am still (not actively) researching.

The Z card I used to have (before getting the Omni) did indeed take positional audio and output it in virtual headphone surround. Generally, I find Windows to be a complicated, tempermental, picky cluster-duck and probably the source of a lot of problems... which is why I usually stick to console gaming.


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

radical_53 said:


> @RPGWiZaRD  Is what @thuNDa says correct? Was that how your post was meant to be understood?
> 
> I swapped my X-Fi Titanium HD for the ZXR and tested both of them head to head in different games. Positional audio in Black Ops 2 was done exceptionally well with the ZXR (with SBX on, of course).


 
  
 Yes. I personally didn't like SBX that much because it affects the sound quite a bit, meanwhile 5.1 virtual sound processing doesn't affect the sound quality at all, in fact it just improves upon it due the improved sound staging. This even affects stereo music playback. When the audio signal is processed as a 5.1 channel audio and then downmixed to stereo it sounds slightly different than it does with just stereo<->stereo processing, it makes the music more "around you" than inside your head sounding. Why that is with stereo music, I don't know but I can hear the difference swapping back n forth. I guess it must be the default HRTF setting for 5.1 has the rear channels a bit delayed.
  
 On Z series cards you have to use "Headphone" setting in Creative control panel to get any sound output and it doesn't matter what speaker config you set in windows in those cards, the sound doesn't change so therefore the Creative drivers simply are coded so they disregard the Windows speaker setting option and uses just what the Creative panel's own speaker setting uses. The "Headphone" setting sounded too "in my head" for my tastes being used to this 5.1->stereo virtual sound processing from before. With E5/G5/X7 Creative finally changed this. Shame they never released a driver update for Z-series cards adressing this.


----------



## franzdom

I have given up on the Z, optical out from the MB sounds fine through my DAC & amp so...no need for the card that I can see.
  
 I really didn't like that when you switch outputs from stereo to headphones it wouldn't work and you usually had to restart your source program.


----------



## Radical_53

@RPGWiZaRD Makes sense. The "headphone" setting seems fine with pair of headphones. I never use any SBX when playing music, and I normally pick the stereo direct mode for my speakers. I'd second that it would be great if they allowed all the options in all the modes though.


----------



## wooo headphones

Thinking about getting the ZxR. I have HE-500 with Project Polaris amp from Garage1217.
  
 My main question is what does it mean when the sound card says that it "supports 600 ohm headphones" - does it come with a built in amp? Will that potentially play poorly with my setup? I got the Polaris specifically because the output impedance played well with my headphones. I'm sort of worried that this sound card will mess that up...??
  
 Should I just get the Zx? Maybe the ZxR is just overkill anyways?


----------



## Stealth3si

Does the audio sound fine when double amping the Z's headphone out using an external amp (like the O2) with a low impedance headphone (i.e., 25-ohms Denon AH-D7000)?
  
Thx!


----------



## DangerClose

wooo headphones said:


> Thinking about getting the ZxR. I have HE-500 with Project Polaris amp from Garage1217.
> 
> My main question is what does it mean when the sound card says that it "supports 600 ohm headphones" - does it come with a built in amp? Will that potentially play poorly with my setup? I got the Polaris specifically because the output impedance played well with my headphones. I'm sort of worried that this sound card will mess that up...??
> 
> Should I just get the Zx? Maybe the ZxR is just overkill anyways?


 
  
 Yes, it has an amp.  ZxR has a much stronger amp than Z and Zx.  Zx is the Z + the desk control attachment.  I was browsing HE-500 posts recently, and I don't think the ZxR was recommended.  That it sounds good, but still holds them back.  It's good power, but apparently the HE-500 needs even more, (needs more current).  That's just from what I recall.  
  
 Quote:


stealth3si said:


> Does the audio sound fine when double amping the Z's headphone out using an external amp (like the O2) with a low impedance headphone (i.e., 25-ohms Denon AH-D7000)?


 
  
 Is there a particular reason you want to do that?  You can use Line Out on the Z to bypass the amping.  I don't know if the Line Out can add game processing, but maybe that's why you want to do it.


----------



## Stealth3si

dangerclose said:


> Is there a particular reason you want to do that?  You can use Line Out on the Z to bypass the amping.  I don't know if the Line Out can add game processing, but maybe that's why you want to do it.


 
 Yes, for the game processing. The Line Out does not add it AFAIK.


----------



## Fegefeuer

No proper headphone surround on the Line Out for ALL Z cards
  
 Only X7, G5 do it. X-Fi cards for CMSS-3D, Dolby Headphone Line Out with Xonar cards.


----------



## sexpot

Hey guys, I have a ZxR and AKG 7XX. What gain setting do I set the ZxR to?
  
 Thanks


----------



## franzdom

Does the ZxR have any place in my soundstream with a Schiit Bimby DAC & Asgard HP amp?


----------



## thuNDa

franzdom said:


> Does the ZxR have any place in my soundstream with a DAC & HP amp?


 

 If you want the effects like virtual surround, and your DAC has optical-in, then it might have a place.
 But then one could also take the cheaper basic Z(non-xR), which will provide the same functionality when it comes to optical out.


----------



## Stealth3si

stealth3si said:


> Does the audio sound fine when double amping the Z's headphone out using an external amp (like the O2) with a low impedance headphone (i.e., 25-ohms Denon AH-D7000)?
> 
> Thx!


 
 To update my situation, I bought the Z card and double amped it np, just need to lower windows volume to 60%. I kept the O2 amp volume knob around 50%. otherwise ok!


----------



## shankly1985

Crossover frequency and Headphones Do anyone here set this? I using Philips X1 with a Frequency of 10 to 40,000 So by this I should be setting Bass to 10hz in the driver software?


----------



## olymind1

Hi!
  
 Are there any sound quality differences between different driver versions? if so, is there any recommended driver for SB Z?
  
 Thanks


----------



## Fegefeuer

Use the latest one. Also only use SBX for games and movies and ignore all other options like bass, crossover, crystallizer etc.. Set SBX off for music unless you like what the spatializer does.


----------



## barsh

Hi, i'm new here. Have a question. I currently have the STX and was wondering if the zrx was better for gaming. Thanks.


----------



## PurpleAngel

barsh said:


> Hi, I'm new here. Have a question. I currently have the STX and was wondering if the ZxR was better for gaming. Thanks.


 
  
 Might trying reading up and asking on this thread.
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/534479/mad-lust-envys-headphone-gaming-guide-3-18-2016-mrspeakers-ether-c-1-1-added/36345


----------



## ProfFalkin

barsh said:


> Hi, i'm new here. Have a question. I currently have the STX and was wondering if the zrx was better for gaming. Thanks.


 
 I just got the ZxR myself.   I can't stand how SBX surround / crystalizer / bass enhancement settings change the sound.  I use it for gaming to get that extra processing for headphone surround, but it really changes mids and treble into a gaudy misshapen monstrosity of crappy audio.  Overwatch goes from sounding good into an overly bright highs and muddy mids.  Bass is bloated and overpowering.  
  
 Right now the only SBX setting I have enabled is surround, and it's only at 10%.  That's all the changes I can stand without noticing bad audio.
  
 I'm thinking I should have gone Essence STX II and their Dolby Headphone settings for any kind of virtual surround via headphones.
  
 Edit:  Thought I'd mention which headphones I tried with this.  Tested with Fidelio X2, HD650, DT770, and T20RP Mk3.
  
 Edit 2: And more to your point - I found that it did not enhance surround effects dramatically.   I'll keep it a few more days.  If I stumble upon some magic formula to make all this sound good and work, I'll update this post.


----------



## Evshrug

barsh said:


> Hi, i'm new here. Have a question. I currently have the STX and was wondering if the zrx was better for gaming. Thanks.



They're almost evenly matched technically (the ZxR technically has better numbers but I haven't compared them side by side, they're both targeted for mid-fi performance), just different processing. I like the less processed, drier sound of SBX (which isn't as dry as CMSS-3D, an old processing algorithm) because it sounds more natural and versatile to me than the home-theater-in-a-room, more diffused sound of Dolby Headphone, but both are good and it comes down to personal taste.



purpleangel said:


> Might trying reading up and asking on this thread.
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/534479/mad-lust-envys-headphone-gaming-guide-3-18-2016-mrspeakers-ether-c-1-1-added/36345



I wouldn't. That thread is console-based and there are more people used to working with PCs in this thread and NamelessPFG's thread.


----------



## mtbfan101

^agree


----------



## herculanum

hi to all years first time forgiveness for my English. I question the zxr . I have a 32 ohm headphones . I wonder if the card output impedance will not damaged the sound of my helmet. I hesitate hugely with the asus stx2 actuelement .I have a fatality fps. when that exchange output , speaker headphones, keep preset ?


----------



## sleepingawake

I have Creative Xtreme Audio. It doesn't have an x-fi processor but it sounds ok. I use digital output->yamaha htr-6130 amplifier->harman kardon hkts/7 sub speakers+pioneer cs-777 hi-fi speakers.
  
 I need better clarity and warmer sound for music. Movies are fine but dolby digital live would be nice. So for this setup, if i buy Z, will it make any difference since i use digital output. They say it doesn't change, but i can clearly say that, motherboard realtek optical output vs. Xtreme audio, there is day and night difference.


----------



## PurpleAngel

sleepingawake said:


> I have Creative Xtreme Audio. It doesn't have an x-fi processor but it sounds ok. I use digital output->yamaha htr-6130 amplifier->harman kardon hkts/7 sub speakers+pioneer cs-777 hi-fi speakers.
> 
> I need better clarity and warmer sound for music. Movies are fine but dolby digital live would be nice. So for this setup, if i buy Z, will it make any difference since i use digital output. They say it doesn't change, but i can clearly say that, motherboard realtek optical output vs. Xtreme audio, there is day and night difference.


 
 Is your speakers a 2.1 or 5.1 or 7.1 setup.
  
 I doubt switching from the Xtreme Audio to the SB-Z, will make an improvement in music audio quality, when using the S/PDIF optical connection.
 Both cards will do 2-channels of PCM 24-bit/96Khz digital audio thru S/PDIF optical and most music is only 2-channels of 16-bit/44.1K digital audio.
 DDL (Dolby Digital live) or DTS-Connect, will allow you to send up to 6-channels of encoded/compressed 24-bit/48k digital audio thru S/PDIF (optical & coaxial).
 Which might help if your playing DVD or Blu-ray movies disks (if your speakers are 5.1 or 7.1), from your PC, thru the Yamaha.
  
 If you use Cyberlink PowerDVD for playing movies disk, it might(?) provide DDL or DTS-Connect.
 Or the disks might already have encoded Dolby or DTS audio, that can pass thru S/PDIF?
  
 Have you tried using Foobar2000 with WASAPI for play music audio?


----------



## sleepingawake

purpleangel said:


> Is your speakers a 2.1 or 5.1 or 7.1 setup.
> 
> I doubt switching from the Xtreme Audio to the SB-Z, will make an improvement in music audio quality, when using the S/PDIF optical connection.
> Both cards will do 2-channels of PCM 24-bit/96Khz digital audio thru S/PDIF optical and most music is only 2-channels of 16-bit/44.1K digital audio.
> ...


 
 For movies i use 5.1, for music i use 2.1
  
 Crystilazer  changes the sound and it sounds good when i use digital output but with speakers option. But x-fi crystilazer makes sound go up and down, maybe processor is bad.If i use digital output, soundcard doesn't change anything. 
  
 I use potplayer for movies, mediamonkey for music. I know about those stuff. Only i can't compare my sound with that soundcard.
  
 I tried once, but didn't get an improvement.
  
 So even if i buy Asus Essence Stx i won't get any improment for digital output, right? What about if i use analog output, will it be better than my amp's processing?


----------



## PurpleAngel

sleepingawake said:


> For movies i use 5.1, for music i use 2.1
> 
> Crystilazer  changes the sound and it sounds good when i use digital output but with speakers option. But x-fi crystilazer makes sound go up and down, maybe processor is bad.If i use digital output, sound card doesn't change anything.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Have you tried running HDMI, from the computer, to the Yamaha and then HDMI to the monitor?
  
 An older Asus Xonar D2X sound card using a 5.1 analog audio connection, to the Yamaha, might improve audio quality.
 The D2X also comes with Dolby, so you could compare the optical digital to the 5.1 analog connection.
  
 The Essence STX is only 2.0 channel analog output


----------



## Margou

I recently bought a ZXR and have a few questions. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 I have my Fidelio X2 plus V-Moda BoomPro mic combo connected to the ACM and that one connected to the headphone and mic jacks at the moment. I also have my subpar monitor speakers connected to the RCA line out jacks.
 Since I won't do any high quality recordings or use the digital connection, I'm wondering whether I actually need to install the DBPro daughter card in my PC as well or if I can just leave that one outside? Will I lose sound quality and are the DTS/DDL options, which will not be available anymore, relevant for my setup in any way or are they only ever used for digital connections?
  
 Btw, does the ACM degrade sound quality?
  
 Hopefully someone knows the answers, thanks.


----------



## PurpleAngel

margou said:


> I recently bought a ZXR and have a few questions.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Seems like you have no need for using the DB Pro daughter card.
  
 Try using the Philips plugged directly into the main card's headphone jack, then try using the ACM, see if you think the ACM degrades the audio quality.
 Guess your own ears are the best judge.


----------



## SupaAPE

Hello everyone. I've had a ZxR for a while now, but i've been wondering what's the best way to get the best sound quality out of it for headphones ? What's the best headphones to buy for 3d positional audio in games and for the best music quality ?  And yes I use the creative crystalizer, i've always used it on each and every creative card and for me it improves music quality.
  
 for external surround audio i'm using optical out with an onkyo reciever and some speakers (need better speakers though).
  
 edit: oh and should I remove and replace the default amps in the ZxR to higher quality ones for use with better headphones?


----------



## franzdom

supaape said:


> Hello everyone. I've had a ZxR for a while now, but i've been wondering what's the best way to get the best sound quality out of it for headphones ? What's the best headphones to buy for 3d positional audio in games and for the best music quality ?  And yes I use the creative crystalizer, i've always used it on each and every creative card and for me it improves music quality.
> 
> for external surround audio i'm using optical out with an onkyo reciever and some speakers (need better speakers though).
> 
> edit: oh and should I remove and replace the default amps in the ZxR to higher quality ones for use with better headphones?


 
  
 Need a better amp and a better DAC too. BEST? That is a HUGE ask!!!


----------



## PurpleAngel

supaape said:


> Hello everyone. I've had a ZxR for a while now, but I've been wondering what's the best way to get the best sound quality out of it for headphones ? What's the best headphones to buy for 3d positional audio in games and for the best music quality ?  And yes I use the creative crystalizer, i've always used it on each and every creative card and for me it improves music quality.
> 
> for external surround audio i'm using optical out with an Onkyo receiver and some speakers (need better speakers though).
> 
> edit: oh and should I remove and replace the default amps in the ZxR to higher quality ones for use with better headphones?


 
  
 Did you disable the motherboard's on-board audio, in the BIOS, when you installed the SB-ZxR?
 Small chance that active on-board might effect the add-on sound card (SB-ZxR),
  
 We can assume you have enabled DDL (Dolby Digital Live) in the sound card settings, so the sound card can send up to 6-channel (5.1) of digital audio to the Onkyo?
 (DDL limits digital audio to 24-bit/48K, which is still fairly good)
  
 Do you have an over all budget for your audio improvement/upgrade?
  
 Are open headphones OK, or do you need closed ones?


----------



## SupaAPE

What Amps do you recommend? I wont be changing DACs for now. 

I disabled onboard audio and i installed the latest ZxR drivers with the proper settings for optical out audio through the onkyo reciever. It's been a while since I've used the onkyo receiver and i really miss the sound quality.

Anyways i got about 600-900 dollars i guess i could spend on headphones. I am an audiophile even though others may disagree with me.

Sorry i didnt quote your posts im using my phone because i spilt bong water on my razer keyboard


----------



## PurpleAngel

supaape said:


> What Amps do you recommend? I wont be changing DACs for now.
> 
> I disabled on-board audio and i installed the latest ZxR drivers with the proper settings for optical out audio through the Onkyo receiver. It's been a while since I've used the Onkyo receiver and i really miss the sound quality.
> 
> ...


 
  
 If you used a vaporizer instead of a Bong, you would not be spilling water on your precious computer equipment
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Currently for music and movies, I like using my Beyerdynamic T90 headphone, new $470.
  
 For FPS gaming, make an offer on these used Audio Technica ATH-AD700X headphones ($90 or best offer).
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/122193451729?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
  
 A Darkvoice 336SE tube headphone amplifier ($213-$250), plugged into the SB-ZxR's Front Speaker jack, might improve audio quality for music.
 https://www.massdrop.com/buy/dark-voice-366se
 Using the Front Speaker jacks bypasses the SB-ZxR's SBX Heedphone surround sound feature, but SBX is not needed for music anyway.


----------



## SupaAPE

purpleangel said:


> If you used a vaporizer instead of a Bong, you would not be spilling water on your precious computer equipment
> 
> Currently for music and movies, I like using my Beyerdynamic T90 headphone, new $470.
> 
> ...




Vaporizers are the best. I had 2 volcanos but my last one got stolen. 

Ill check out your headphones man, thanks 4 the fast response


----------



## Omerovich

Am i going to get any benefits from the Op-Amps in Stereo Direct mode?I bought quite expensive Op-Amps and know this question is bothering me .Thanks!


----------



## thuNDa

omerovich said:


> Am i going to get any benefits from the Op-Amps in Stereo Direct mode?I bought quite expensive Op-Amps and know this question is bothering me .Thanks!


 

 Stereo direct = bypassing the soundprocessor, everything else is like before.


----------



## PurpleAngel

omerovich said:


> Am i going to get any benefits from the Op-Amps in Stereo Direct mode?I bought quite expensive Op-Amps and know this question is bothering me .Thanks!


 
  
 Assuming your outputting an analog audio signal thru the sound card's headphone jack or line-output jacks, you will benefit from the expensive op-amps.
 If the card is outputting digital audio thru the S/PDIF (optical or coaxial) output, then the op-amps are bypassed.


----------



## paresser

x7007
 Quote:


x7007 said:


> I found my self going crazy about the settings, I'm not sure what to use for gaming / movies / music



 Hi! I use the same combination - G5 + 990PRO. Did you find the optimal settings?


----------



## mindbomb

So, when you use the soundblaster z's main rear panel jack, are you always using the 4556 opamp? What is this talk of the maxim headphone amp? Is that built into the soundcore 3d chip? When is that used? The front panel connector? never?


----------



## thuNDa

mindbomb said:


> So, when you use the soundblaster z's main rear panel jack, are you always using the 4556 opamp? What is this talk of the maxim headphone amp? Is that built into the soundcore 3d chip? When is that used? The front panel connector? never?


 
 can't see a max97220 chip anywhere on the board, dunno who came up with that.
 https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91PlSB6GetL._SL1500_.jpg
  
 here u can see this chip(it's on my smsl sd-793II -  the chip close to the potentiometer)
 http://imgur.com/oRG8XXI


----------



## PurpleAngel

mindbomb said:


> So, when you use the soundblaster z's main rear panel jack, are you always using the 4556 op-amp? What is this talk of the maxim headphone amp? Is that built into the Soundcore 3D chip? When is that used? The front panel connector? never?


 
  
 The Maxim headphone amplifier chip is separate from the Creative Labs Soundcore3D audio processor


----------



## thuNDa

purpleangel said:


> The Maxim headphone amplifier chip is separate from the Creative Labs Soundcore3D audio processor


 

 It's nowhere to be seen tho.
 Would have been nice if they actually used this chip, because then the card could have an ~1 Ohm outputimpedance instead of 22 Ohms, and the output power would be higher aswell(and that from a 5V single supply).


----------



## mindbomb

I actually prefer if they didn't use it (which seems to be the case here). Then you would have lower distortion when using a separate external amplifier.


----------



## PurpleAngel

thunda said:


> It's nowhere to be seen tho.
> Would have been nice if they actually used this chip, because then the card could have an ~1 Ohm outputimpedance instead of 22 Ohms, and the output power would be higher aswell(and that from a 5V single supply).


 
  
 I would say the maxim chip on there somewhere, maybe it's just not well marked


----------



## thuNDa

mindbomb said:


> I actually prefer if they didn't use it (which seems to be the case here). Then you would have lower distortion when using a separate external amplifier.


 
 that's also a good point - so much for "double amping" when you connect an Amp to the HP-out. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 BTW:

  
 (recorded with my realtek line-in, because SB-Z ones got fried by me the other day 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)
  


purpleangel said:


> I would say the maxim chip on there somewhere, maybe it's just not well marked


 
  
 it's not there, the maxim chip is a 16pin one at the size of the opamps you actually see on the board.
 My guess is, that they use a ~2x gain with the JRC2114.


----------



## Albert King

Hi there

I got the ZXR yesterday but here comes an issue that i plug my own microphone directly to the card and it doesn`t work, i checked the control panle and no sound is received.

Instead，when i use the ACM with it bulti-in microphone, it works.

Do anyone know what to do? Can i use my own microphone without the ACM?


----------



## PurpleAngel

albert king said:


> I got the ZXR yesterday but here comes an issue that i plug my own microphone directly to the card and it doesn`t work, I checked the control panle and no sound is received.
> Instead，when i use the ACM with it bulti-in microphone, it works.
> Do anyone know what to do? Can i use my own microphone without the ACM?


 
 Did you disable the motherboard's on-board audio, in the BIOS, when you installed the SB-ZxR card.
 Very slight chance active on-board might effect an add-on internal sound card.
  
 Maybe the SB-ZxR has a setting for the line-input port, like it can be switched between mic-input and line-input.
 The line-input port might even have an autodetect for when the ACM is plugged in?


----------



## Albert King

purpleangel said:


> Did you disable the motherboard's on-board audio, in the BIOS, when you installed the SB-ZxR card.
> Very slight chance active on-board might effect an add-on internal sound card.
> 
> Maybe the SB-ZxR has a setting for the line-input port, like it can be switched between mic-input and line-input.
> The line-input port might even have an autodetect for when the ACM is plugged in?



Yes，the onboard sound is disable and i have unistall them in the device manager before the installing the zxr.

The acm works fine, i mean if i unplug the acm and plug another microphone directly to the sound card，the mic does not work.


----------



## tl13m

Here is my impression with V5i:

 (updated 11/11/16 for the ACM module)

  

 Out of the box, it make the ZxR sound more cleaner and fuller.

*For the music:* 

 I did a quick test between 2 setups (turn off all SBX of ZxR, iCan, iDSD enanchement features during test):

 Foobar ASIO

 ZxR > ifi iCan > HE 560

 ZxR > (toslink) ifi Micro iDSD (rca) > HDVD 800 > HE 560

  



  
  

 Stock opamp: iCan setup score 6/10 compare to iDSD setup.

 V5i opamp: iCan setup score 8/10 compare to iDSD setup.

  

*SBX Studio Pro *respond to V5i (test with iCan setup):


 Bass: the bass boost is less bloat compare to the stock opamp.

 Crystalizer: with stock opamp, only lossy format (MP3, Youtube…) is benefit from this feature, not with lossless (FLAC…). With V5i installed, the lossless also can benefit now.


  

*ACM module with V5i installed*

 - Earbud (Yuin PK1), iem (Flatsui 4, FX 850) sound very close to iCAN

 - Easy drive Can (Oppo PM3, Audio Technica ATH - M70X) also very close to iCAN, just slightly less airy

 - Hard drive Can (HE - 560): simply no match for iCAN.

  

 This is my first time opamp replacement, very nice improvement for music, gaming or movie. The result make me curiuos with how V5 (big one) and SS3601/2 would improve the sound.

  

 Full set V5i installed



  
 Those V5i slightly higher than those around caps

  
  
 The shield barely touch V5i, so I left it open

  
 Installed back to the pc.

  
  
Note for Windows 10 user:
 After you installed new opamp, the SBX Pro Studio might pop up warning message (see the picture below), thus you cant use SBX Pro for switching between mode (stereo, headphone...) and other features.
  

  
  
 It's really freak me out, I don't know what wrong during the replacement. After several remove, reinstall driver, software, check the sound card...
  
 Finally, I figured it out, not sure it is Windows 10 or SBX Pro bug. To fix this problems, just go to the menu in Pro Studio  --> Audio Device Selection --> Select the device to configure --> Sound Blaster ZxR.


----------



## tl13m

So good experience V5i on ZxR make me curious about the 2 top discrete op-amp: Sparko Labs SS3601/2 and V5. However, the V5 is clearly too tall and would take 2-3 additional slots in my pc. Thus I give the SL a shot 
  
 Size comparison of stock op-amp - V5i - SS3601/2

  
 Height comparison of V5i - SS3601 - SS3602

  
 The V5i can be installed directly to socket, but the SS is required additional DIP8 to rise it above around caps

  

  
  ZxR cant not install in the PCI x1 (above GPU), I cant use SLI 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  
 The sound is even better the V5i:
 - Stock op-amp: iCan setup score 6/10 compare to iDSD setup.

 - V5i: iCan setup score 8/10 compare to iDSD setup. Significant sound improvement for clarity and fuller sound compare to the stock op-amp. However, sound stage is slightly smaller and less airy compare to iDSD setup.

 - SS: iCan setup score 9/10 compare to iDSD setup. Further improvement upon V5i, sound stage is just very little smaller.

  

 In my opinion, the V5i is the best P/P upgrade for ZxR and the SS push ZxR to its limits but come with a cost of an additional PCI slot.


----------



## bcschmerker4

tl13m said:


> So good experience V5i on ZxR make me curious about the 2 top discrete op-amp: Sparko Labs SS3601/2 and V5. However, the V5 is clearly too tall and would take 2-3 additional slots in my pc. Thus I give the SL a shot
> 
> Size comparison of stock op-amp - V5i - SS3601/2
> 
> ...


 
*What system board your rig?*  I've the opposite situation with my ASUS® CM1630-06 and its M4A78LT-M; the PCIe x1 is closest the I/O shield.  Same goes for the Gigabyte® GA-MA78GM-S2HP in my hot rod LinUX box.  Many, but not all, of ASUSTeK's full-size ATX 'boards have a PCIe x1 on the inboard end as well.


----------



## tl13m

bcschmerker4 said:


> *What system board your rig?*  I've the opposite situation with my ASUS® CM1630-06 and its M4A78LT-M; the PCIe x1 is closest the I/O shield.  Same goes for the Gigabyte® GA-MA78GM-S2HP in my hot rod LinUX box.  Many, but not all, of ASUSTeK's full-size ATX 'boards have a PCIe x1 on the inboard end as well.


 
 My is *GA-Z87X-UD3H*
 http://www.gigabyte.com/products/product-page.aspx?pid=4481#ov


----------



## thuNDa

purpleangel said:


> I would say the maxim chip on there somewhere, maybe it's just not well marked


 
 alright, it's indeed there.
 It's that tiny chip which sits right before the headphone jack(as one would expect) with "AIF" on it. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 They also added another one supposedly for the frontpanel connection.
 https://www.google.de/search?q=max97220aete&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b&gfe_rd=cr&ei=dDQqWOCnD8Tj8wfK656wBg


----------



## tl13m

Just got V5 from local DIY shop, local distributor of Burson in my country (DIYshop.vn)
  
 It's required 2 additional DIP8 sockets for each op-amp (1 DIP8 socket is included)

  
 If you install V5 version, it will use 2.5 slots (Sparkos use 1.5 slot, V5i only use 1 slot)

  
 Out of the box, IMO the sound is definitely better V5i, it is more airy. Compare to the Sparkos, the only thing I can spot is its bass hit harder.


----------



## Omerovich

Sorry boss i didn't get that.The sound is better with V5 or V5i's?


----------



## tl13m

omerovich said:


> Sorry boss i didn't get that.The sound is better with V5 or V5i's?


 

 IMO,
 V5 vs V5i: V5 is more airy and wider
 V5 vs Sparkos: not sure which one is better because they both very clear, airy and wider V5i. Swapping them take too long to remember exact how they sound. But one thing different I can sure is V5's bass hit harder.
  
 BTW:
 - When you change op-amp of ZxR, make sure it sit tight on the socket, loosely install might cause cracking noise and overhead the op-amp.
 - V5 dual is heavy than V5 single, V5i and Sparkos, thus if your PC have a lot of fans (especially overclocking) V5 might slowly fallout. Make sure you check it regularly. I wish they make revert DIP8 socket, this will be no longer issue.


----------



## Riotstarterr

Hey guys, is ZxR a good choice? I mean, for the price.
  
 I also have E5 which I'm satisfied with, but I use E5 on the go and at work exclusively.


----------



## PurpleAngel

riotstarterr said:


> Hey guys, is ZxR a good choice? I mean, for the price.
> I also have E5 which I'm satisfied with, but I use E5 on the go and at work exclusively.


 
  
 What headphones or speakers will you be connecting to the SB-ZxR sound card?
 Any headphones or speakers you're planning on buying in the near future?
 Do you need sound card features like SBX Headphone surround sound?


----------



## Riotstarterr

Well, I have older, -used to be damn expensive- JVC stereo system. It's one of those old school hi-fi tower systems, but it sounds pretty neat, not like those new mediocre systems.
 I also use stereo headphones (Superlux, Sony MDR1, etc.)
  
 I have no surround system, I was thinking of buying some good one, but I can't get myself to get rid of the JVC since it sounds really great and those 200-400USD surround systems don't get any close to it (I have one Logitech at home and don't use it).
  
 From the SBX features on my Sound Blaster E5, I use Crystallizer on some MP3/Youtube tracks since it actually does improve sound and I really like it. SBX Bass options sounds really weird and I don't use that, EQ itself is nice but not really needed in my case, just sometimes I add a bit on the low end on some tracks or games, but I can more easily turn up the bass on my JVC system.
 Surround SBX option sounds really lame imo, the more you set it to, the more it sounds like from a can.
  
 Also I wanna know, if the ZxR WILL sound better than the E5...?


----------



## PurpleAngel

riotstarterr said:


> Well, I have older, -used to be damn expensive- JVC stereo system. It's one of those old school hi-fi tower systems, but it sounds pretty neat, not like those new mediocre systems.
> I also use stereo headphones (Superlux, Sony MDR1, etc.)
> 
> I have no surround system, I was thinking of buying some good one, but I can't get myself to get rid of the JVC since it sounds really great and those 200-400USD surround systems don't get any close to it (I have one Logitech at home and don't use it).
> ...


 
  
 Do you in any way use the JVC audio system with your computer?
  
 So far I'm not seeing enough reason to use a SB-ZxR, in place of the Creative Labs E5
 The SB-ZxR does have a better DAC chip and op-amps, then the E5,
 but the E5 is external (less change of computer electrical noise be picked up by sound card)
 and the E5's headphone amplifier has a much lower output impedance (helps with audio detail).


----------



## Riotstarterr

Yes, I use JVC system with my PC exclusively.


----------



## PurpleAngel

riotstarterr said:


> Yes, I use JVC system with my PC exclusively.


 
  
 How?


----------



## tl13m

riotstarterr said:


> Also I wanna know, if the ZxR WILL sound better than the E5...?


 

 I'm not sure about stock op-amp, but with Burson or Sparkos op-amp upgrade, I'm sure it will be significant better than E5. With ZxR you can have fun with op-amp rolling


----------



## Riotstarterr

purpleangel said:


> How?




What do you mean by how exactly? 

It is connected via RCA, I listen to music and play games, sometimes, but less than the other two, I watch some movies.


----------



## PurpleAngel

riotstarterr said:


> What do you mean by how exactly?
> It is connected via RCA, I listen to music and play games, sometimes, but less than the other two, I watch some movies.


 
  
 Your PC could be connected to the JVC by analog (RCA or 3.5mm) or optical or coaxial or HDMI or network
 Analog connection could be anywhere from 2-channel to 6-channel.
  
 When you say "Yes, I use JVC system with my PC exclusively" it does not really narrow down how the PC is connected to the JVC.
  
 Most Win PC's do not have RCA analog output jacks.
 So is the connection from the PC's front speaker jack (3.5mm) to the RCA input jacks on the JVC?
 We can assume you play PC games in stereo (2.0) audio?


----------



## Riotstarterr

Yes I wrote above it's connected via RCA (JVC).
 To be precise, it's RCA (JVC) to 3.5mm jack (PC).
 And yes, I have only stereo headphones and stereo system, so I use it as a stereo.


----------



## seamon

Anyone looking for a ZxR with Burson V5i op amps?


----------



## PurpleAngel

riotstarterr said:


> Yes I wrote above it's connected via RCA (JVC).
> To be precise, it's RCA (JVC) to 3.5mm jack (PC).
> And yes, I have only stereo headphones and stereo system, so I use it as a stereo.


 
  
 You might be able to improve audio quality, with the computer to JVC connection, if you bought a DAC or sound card.
 Asus Xonar DX or D1 sound card, used $40-$60
 Creative Labs Sound Blaster Z card, used $60?
 Hifimediy USB or optical DAC, $42-$70
 Schiit Modi USB DAC, $100


----------



## Riotstarterr

Thanks for the tips, however, could you comment on the ZxR please? Maybe even ZxR vs E5 as I wrote before - if you have some experience with those.
 Thanks.
  
 EDIT:
 Let me give you additional question:
 What if I just bought Sound BlasterX G5.
  
 I already have E5 and I expect G5 to be the same soundwise, except for the fact it does not have battery, BT and mic.
  
 What do you think?


----------



## Click

*All Creative products are 30% off with code THIRTYOFF*


----------



## tl13m

Anyone like Burson opamp upgrade, you should try their Cable +. My comparison post here:
  
http://www.head-fi.org/t/820915/burson-cable-active-voltage-raising-impedance-matching-cable/75


----------



## Forty6

purpleangel said:


> Do you in any way use the JVC audio system with your computer?
> 
> So far I'm not seeing enough reason to use a SB-ZxR, in place of the Creative Labs E5
> The SB-ZxR does have a better DAC chip and op-amps, then the E5,
> ...






I been using the E5 as purely for my daily OTG audio needs with my mobile through Bluetooth since July , and weeks ago inherited a 6 year old rig from one of my boys after he moved to a gaming laptop , 
Lately I been pairing up the E5 with the rig everyday when I reach home and has been enjoying movies , spotify audio , YouTube channel together with the 41ohms basshead iem aurisonics asg 2.5 , and was experiencing exceptional good quality from it . 
One of the biggest single noticeable difference is I get Absolute ZERO background hissing noise floor with the above mentioned combination with the 6 yr old rig . Where normally i would get noisy hissing when E5 pair up with my mobile .

As currently I'm making preparation to extensively revamp the 6 yr old rig with a Asus deluxe 2 edition X99 MB and all cooling system + PSU , GPU etc , the last thing which I had in mind for the rig while upgrading is the internal sound card ( If there's enough slot / space left ) for it.
If there's simply no slot / space , I wouldn't mind continuing using the E5 as a external option . 

So for the internal sound card , I had 2 particular ones in mind , which is the creative labs flagship ZXR , and the Asus flagship Xonar Essence STX II . 
My music genres are somewhat all across , listening to almost all types of music genres , but my preference to music is always bass come first , without sacrificing the mids . 

In your opinion , which are the 2 above mentioned suited best ? ZXR or Xonar E STX ? 
Or do you have other sound card you had in mind for the type of my preference to introduce ? 

Any inputs , help , advise is appreciated .




tl13m said:


> I'm not sure about stock op-amp, but with Burson or Sparkos op-amp upgrade, I'm sure it will be significant better than E5. With ZxR you can have fun with op-amp rolling




Hi , as to my questions above mentioned to purpleangle , what do you think and do u have anything suitable to introduce me ? 
Any inputs , help , recommendations will be greatly appreciated .


----------



## Riotstarterr

forty6 said:


>


 
  
  
 Now, let me tell you, how it went with me and how it ended up:

 First, I bought Sound Blaster Z, the cheapest, bulk version without EMI shield. It was kinda nice, but not that much satisfying as I expected, also, I wanted the external module control.
 So I went and bought Sound Blaster ZxR. Now, that was better, but I had issues with hiss/noise, especially when the GPU was working (playing game). No matter where I've put the ZxR card, above, or under the GPU, the noise was there and EMI shield didn't help at all. Also, I had issue (which I did not realize before) that I have also PS4 and it was kinda hard to have both PC and PS4 reasonably plugged into my sound system, also, PS4 was unable to benefit from the ZxR card obviously. And the last thing, I somewhat could not justify the price of ZxR, especially considering the (lack of) features and issues I had.
  
 Then, I returned the ZxR card too and bought Sound Blaster X7.
 And I kept it and could not be happier.
  
 It's really great, I have PC, PS4 and mobile phone connected at the same time to it, all benefit from X7 sound and features, all can actually play simultaneously at the same time - pretty unique feature! My headphones and speakers can stay connected all the time to it and I can just flip the switch in X7 software to switch between output. Not to mention that X7 looks pretty neat on my desk (I just wish they didn't replace red design elements with gold in the final retail version, but it's definitely not a dealbreaker).
 I bought X7 for just a bit more than the ZxR cost me, so it's a win win (I paid 250USD for brand new X7 with 2 year warranty).
  
 TLDR: X7 is basically external, significantly improved (more features) version of ZxR, that will not have issues with interference.
  
  
 Maybe my experience will help you.


----------



## seamon

riotstarterr said:


> Now, let me tell you, how it went with me and how it ended up:
> 
> First, I bought Sound Blaster Z, the cheapest, bulk version without EMI shield. It was kinda nice, but not that much satisfying as I expected, also, I wanted the external module control.
> So I went and bought Sound Blaster ZxR. Now, that was better, but I had issues with hiss/noise, especially when the GPU was working (playing game). No matter where I've put the ZxR card, above, or under the GPU, the noise was there and EMI shield didn't help at all. Also, I had issue (which I did not realize before) that I have also PS4 and it was kinda hard to have both PC and PS4 reasonably plugged into my sound system, also, PS4 was unable to benefit from the ZxR card obviously. And the last thing, I somewhat could not justify the price of ZxR, especially considering the (lack of) features and issues I had.
> ...


 
 If you got no noise with SB Z(no shield) and noise with ZxR(with shield) then definitely something is wrong. Most probably you got a dud. ZxR is one of the quietest internal sound cards.


----------



## Riotstarterr

Well, that is the thing. I cannot really say that I did not have noise issue with SB Z.
 First, maybe there was, but I really did not test it out properly and second, I do not remember at all.
  
 The noise on ZxR was especially pronounced when GPU was working, it was literally connected to the % of GPU usage, you could hear it like some bizzare GPU beepy/whizzy song if you cranked up the volume and put GPU to work.


----------



## seamon

riotstarterr said:


> Well, that is the thing. I cannot really say that I did not have noise issue with SB Z.
> First, maybe there was, but I really did not test it out properly and second, I do not remember at all.
> 
> The noise on ZxR was especially pronounced when GPU was working, it was literally connected to the % of GPU usage, you could hear it like some bizzare GPU beepy/whizzy song if you cranked up the volume and put GPU to work.


 
 I am guessing your PC is not grounded properly so the EMI shield is useless is this scenario. This is the only possible explanation other than the card being a dud. You should really ground your PC imo. Another possible explanation is that your case is entirely plastic so the card itself is not grounded. You need to ground it.
  
 I have a properly grounded metal case. My ZxR is sandwiched between 2 GTX 1080s. No noise. Not one bit.


----------



## Riotstarterr

What do you mean by "not grounded properly"? It's in a damn electric socket with ground pin. And yes, the case is metal.


----------



## seamon

riotstarterr said:


> What do you mean by "not grounded properly"? It's in a damn electric socket with ground pin. And yes, the case is metal.


 
 Just because the socket has a ground pin, doesn't mean that the house is automatically grounded


----------



## Riotstarterr

Well maybe not, but I don't have any idea how to go around and find out if it's really an issue and if it is, how to exactly solve it.


----------



## Forty6

riotstarterr said:


> Now, let me tell you, how it went with me and how it ended up:
> 
> 
> First, I bought Sound Blaster Z, the cheapest, bulk version without EMI shield. It was kinda nice, but not that much satisfying as I expected, also, I wanted the external module control.
> ...




Many thanks with the advice , and I will keep this written down on the notebook . I had read up Internal interference is one of those issues with regards to internal sound cards where some user has been experiencing and complaining about it .




seamon said:


> Just because the socket has a ground pin, doesn't mean that the house is automatically grounded




You too , many thanks , as stated in the pm , I first got to finalise the upgrade parts needed to be used for the case , and space / slot after SSD + possible SLI configuration . Until all that has been fully sorted out , and extra slot comes into play will then I choose the best suitable sound card optionfor the rig . 

And if you don't mind , it would definitely helps me in revamping the rig , can you elaborate more on the grounding for the case ? Which is the most appropriate ways to ground the case ? 

Many thanks


----------



## Omerovich

ZXR with Burson Op-Amps gives you the best sound ever.Much better than STX!I've tried everything.


----------



## Forty6

omerovich said:


> ZXR with Burson Op-Amps gives you the best sound ever.Much better than STX!I've tried everything.




Thanks , noted .


----------



## tl13m

omerovich said:


> ZXR with Burson Op-Amps gives you the best sound ever.Much better than STX!I've tried everything.


 
 You should try their Cable +, it will further upgrade your sound.
  
 BTW, I dont like to use 2 additional DIP8 sockets for each V5 because it might effect the signal and might pickup some noise. So I cut some plastic shell off and now I can install V5 directly on ZxR
  


  
Please note:
- Try this mod at your own risks and this will void your V5 warranty.
 - My PC have sufficient airflow so inside PC temperature stable around 40*C - 50*C. Therefore, the black compound inside V5 don't melt down.


----------



## DJ XtAzY

Going to order the Burson opamp soon. Very very curious how much they'll improve over the stock and how it'll sound with my Sony XBAZ5 iems.


----------



## Libertad

Ive used the Burson op amp V5s in my HT Omega Soundcard and noticed an imediate difference even over the V4s it wont dissapoint


----------



## Omerovich

The sound will be natural,neutral and detailed as possible.


----------



## Omerovich

The sound will be natural,neutral and detailed as possible.


----------



## Garzhad

PRecisely. Lots of older houses arn't grounded. However, line filters can help alot. All of my electronics are plugged into commercial-grade ESP surge protector/line filters originally intended for $50,000 commercial copiers which themselves usually retail for hundreds of dollars from my old job.


----------



## Garzhad

Also, just throwing this out there as a general question but, are there any good creative or asus external dacs that would perform similar to/better than their cards for around the same price point that also come with the surround sound software and other features(as in, SBX Pro Studio, EAX 5.0, ALchemy, SBX Surround; Dolby Headphone/Virtual Speaker/GX2.5 ect) again with exclusive focus on headphone gaming quality(i'll likely pair them with Sennheiser HD598's)


----------



## Forty6

```

```



garzhad said:


> Also, just throwing this out there as a general question but, are there any good creative or asus external dacs that would perform similar to/better than their cards for around the same price point that also come with the surround sound software and other features(as in, SBX Pro Studio, EAX 5.0, ALchemy, SBX Surround; Dolby Headphone/Virtual Speaker/GX2.5 ect) again with exclusive focus on headphone gaming quality(i'll likely pair them with Sennheiser HD598's)




Take a tour here , if you're looking something with a small footprint , the E5 or the G5 is what you might need.

http://us.creative.com/p/amplifiers

I'm using the E5 , and it drives well on my asg 2.5 .


----------



## DJ XtAzY

What's the best way to reach Burson Audio? I tried sending them an email to info@bursonaudio.com and a PM here and no replies for about a week. Just trying to see if they can include the 4 extra DIP8 sockets in one order with the head-fi special price.


----------



## PurpleAngel

garzhad said:


> Also, just throwing this out there as a general question but, are there any good creative or asus external dacs that would perform similar to/better than their cards for around the same price point that also come with the surround sound software and other features(as in, SBX Pro Studio, EAX 5.0, ALchemy, SBX Surround; Dolby Headphone/Virtual Speaker/GX2.5 ect) again with exclusive focus on headphone gaming quality(i'll likely pair them with Sennheiser HD598's)


 
  
 Assuming you mean Creative or Asus external sound cards, not Creative or Asus external DACs.
 Usually internal sound cards offer better bang for the buck, then external sound cards.
 But internal sound cards may come with features you have not need for (5.1 or 7.1 speaker outputs).
 I would guess Creative's newer external sound cards are around the best external sound cards available.
 EAX 5.0 and Alchemy are more for older sound cards and older Windows OS (?)
 So you really looking as deciding between Asus Dolby Headphone or Creative's SBX Headphone.
 But in general I think Creative's newer external sound cards are what would serve you best.


----------



## Garzhad

purpleangel said:


> Assuming you mean Creative or Asus external sound cards, not Creative or Asus external DACs.
> Usually internal sound cards offer better bang for the buck, then external sound cards.
> But internal sound cards may come with features you have not need for (5.1 or 7.1 speaker outputs).
> I would guess Creative's newer external sound cards are around the best external sound cards available.
> ...


 

 Well Creative calls it a DAC, but yeah their external sound card, like the SoundBlasterX G5 and E5 that Forty6 mentioned.
  
 And yeah, considering I prefer headphones speaker outputs are more or less completely useless to me.
  
 The G5 and E5 seem nearly identical, both externals and the ZxR use the same audio processor, with the built-in beam-forming microphones with Crystal Voice(which the ZxR also features) being the main reason the E5 is ~$4-50 more, along with that the E5 uses SBX Pro Studio while the G5 uses the (newer?) BlasterX Acoustic Engine. Seems like both do 7.1 Virtual Surround though, whereas the ZxR can only do 5.1(is that really much of a con?)? Some reviews have complained that the ACM module included with the Zx/ZxR impacts sound quality rather negatively as well compared to connecting directly to the outs on the card(anyone else noticed this?)
  
 I'm also somewhat concerned about the quality of the headphone amps in them. Some tech site reviews had reported that, despite their 600ohm ratings they had trouble driving high impedance headphones properly on the internal sound cards? Which considering I intend on getting a 150ohm set as soon as they're on a decent sale is somewhat disconcerting. Anyone else experienced this or maybe the reviewers just got a bad card? Do the external cards amps perform like they should? And has anyone compared sound quality between the external cards and the Z-series internal sound cards?
  
 Price comparisons included just for the heck of it
 E5: $170
 G5: $129
 ZxR: $210
 Zx: $90
 Z: $70


----------



## PurpleAngel

garzhad said:


> Well Creative calls it a DAC, but yeah their external sound card, like the SoundBlasterX G5 and E5 that Forty6 mentioned.
> 
> And yeah, considering I prefer headphones speaker outputs are more or less completely useless to me.
> 
> ...


 
 DAC or external sound card, guess each company decides on how they want to discribe their product.
  
 The is really no compelling reason for buying a 600-Ohm headphones, just because they are 600-Ohm.
 Some of my best sounding headphones are 32-Ohm and 40-Ohm.
 If your going to buy a 600-Ohm headphones, then you really should be investing in something like a nice tube headphone amplifier, to drive them.
  
 My guess is the way the Creative ACM manages volume control might effect the audio quality with certion headphones but i'm not the expert on that.


----------



## Garzhad

Wasn't getting 150ohm headsets specifically because of their impedance, but rather because they(SE HD598) were very highly rated around the price point I was looking at and many others near it are of similar impedance, so making sure these cards can actually DRIVE them would be kinda nice.
  
 As anyone who buys things in modern society knows companies often will fudge numbers for the sake of marketing and sales and was wondering if this was the case for the Z-series alleged 600ohm amps considering some reviews said they had trouble driving headphones that were only half that. Maybe they got a bad card. Maybe they were paid by Asus to poopoo some aspects of the card. I don't know. Which is why feedback from actual owners would be nice; at least they arn't being paid off. Hence me asking if any owners of Creatives latest sound cards, be they internal or external have had problems driving headphones around the level ill be getting.


----------



## PurpleAngel

garzhad said:


> Wasn't getting 150-Ohm headsets specifically because of their impedance, but rather because they (SE HD598) were very highly rated around the price point I was looking at and many others near it are of similar impedance, so making sure these cards can actually DRIVE them would be kinda nice.
> 
> As anyone who buys things in modern society knows companies often will fudge numbers for the sake of marketing and sales and was wondering if this was the case for the Z-series alleged 600-Ohm amps considering some reviews said they had trouble driving headphones that were only half that. Maybe they got a bad card. Maybe they were paid by Asus to poopoo some aspects of the card. I don't know. Which is why feedback from actual owners would be nice; at least they arn't being paid off. Hence me asking if any owners of Creatives latest sound cards, be they internal or external have had problems driving headphones around the level ill be getting.


 
  
 The Sennheiser HD598SE (Special Edition) is only 50-Ohm (not 150-Ohm).
 A $20 FiiO E6 headphone amplifier could drive the HD598SE.


----------



## bcschmerker4

purpleangel said:


> garzhad said:
> 
> 
> > Well Creative calls it a DAC, but yeah their external sound card, like the SoundBlasterX G5 and E5 that Forty6 mentioned.
> ...


 

 From some months of running a Creative Laboratories® SB1550 in my souped-up ASUS® CM1630, I found that some of these newer Sound Blasters, e.g. the SB1500 and SB1510, are _asking_ for headsets of at least better than 100 Ω - I had to set the Plantronics® GAMECOM® 380's on-harness Volume to minimum to keep the levels safe for my ears, as the SB1550's internal headphone amp is driven by the Front L/R signal going to the card-edge jack panel.  I'd like to read some audition results of the SB1500 through one of the 600 Ω engineering headsets previously reviewed via the Front Panel headphone jack through a 3.5mm-to-6.3mm TRS adapter (ENG 'sets use the 6.3mm plugs universally).


----------



## Garzhad

Is there no software-based control of the gain? I don't know about the sound cards but their external dac/soundcard/whatever both have a gain control switch in Lo(for 32-150Ω) and Hi(for 150-600Ω)


----------



## pr0g4m1ng

I have a question regarding the ZXR's SBX Pro Surround behavior when using a stereo source.
  
 Settings:
 SBX Pro Surround: ON (50% - read somewhere that 33% has the best localization and 67% has the smoothest transitions)
 Creative speaker setting: Headphones
 Windows speaker setting: 5.1 speakers
  
 When I have a 5.1 source sbx pro will somehow calculate a 2.0 signal out of it, so that I have a HRTF/5.1 hearing sensation although my headphones are 2.0. Got that!
  
 But *what does sbx pro studio do when I only have a 2.0 signal*? Does it have a negative effect when listening to "real" HRTF stereo material?
  
 e.g. When I watch the virtual barber shop demo it will both work with SBX Pro surround enabled and disabled equally even though I certainly hear a difference.


----------



## tl13m

pr0g4m1ng said:


> e.g. When I watch the virtual barber shop demo it will both work with SBX Pro surround enabled and disabled equally even though I certainly hear a difference.


 
  
 My guess, the Virtual barber shop demo is a binaural recording


----------



## pr0g4m1ng

Yes of course. That kinda was my question: Does sbx pro studio somehow interfere with binaural effects that are already there or does it leave them (=stereo information) alone?


----------



## PurpleAngel

pr0g4m1ng said:


> Yes of course. That kinda was my question: Does sbx pro studio somehow interfere with binaural effects that are already there or does it leave them (=stereo information) alone?


 
  
 I would guess it depends on what you set the Creative Audio control panel to.
 Dolby Pro Logic can do an Expanded Stereo (fake 7.1) with 2-channel audio, would assume(?) Creative's SBX can do the same.


----------



## pr0g4m1ng

There is no dedicated option for that sadly. After everything that I read I assume that it will upmix when I chose "5.1-Surround speakers" but won't upmix when I use "headphones". That's the only way that makes sense. But a little bit of confirmation would be nice. 
  
 I am asking because I use headphones and SBX Pro Studio and in most games that's the best way to get surround sound (HRTF). However, there are some games with built in HRTF engines and these games will give you a stereo signal to begin with. It would be kinda dumb if sbx pro studio messes with this already "ready" stereo signal somehow.


----------



## Blotto80

I'm in the market for a new sound card for gaming/music playback over optical to a DAC, I want to maintain the same level quality for two channel playback that I currently get over USB but add good quality virtual surround for gaming. I've been eyeballing the SB Z but as I don't need the better analog output would I lose anything going with a cheaper model like the Recon3D or one of the USB models?


----------



## Evshrug

Blotto,
Since you're outputting optical to another DAC, I would recommend whichever is cheaper between the SoundBlaster Z or the Omni 5.1. I personally went for the Omni.

The Omni has a slightly lower sample rate (96kHz max instead of 128 kHz), but otherwise the sound quality to an optical DAC will be identical. Plus, it's external and thus isolated from noisy power supplies and other internal PC components, plus it's transportable and laptop/Mac compatible (might not matter to you), plus I found the beam forming microphone to be better, and you get a physical volume knob on your desk to control PC system volume. And the convenience of access to all the ports.

The convenience and compatibility is what had me return the Z for the Omni, but pick based on your needs and research.


----------



## gug42

Hello,
  
 I have a dumb question :
   can I use the same op amp between xonar STX and creative ZxR (1 more needed) at the same position (buffers and I/IV) without problems ?
  
 Thank you in advance !


----------



## igytech

gug42 said:


> Hello,
> 
> I have a dumb question :
> can I use the same op amp between xonar STX and creative ZxR (1 more needed) at the same position (buffers and I/IV) without problems ?
> ...


 
 Yes and no.
  
 ZxR use 2 single channel opamps for buffers, and STX use one dual channel for buffer.
 Both use dual channel for I/V.
 So you can use same dual channel opamps in I/V such are muses8920, 01, 02 or LME49720... but you need to use single channel opamps for ZxR buffers.


----------



## gug42

Thx for your reply. 
  
 lol I have bought same ship for ZxR and STX so i must  buy some new one  
  
 Have you got some references for single channel  please ?
 - LME49990MA
 - AD797XX
  
 - Something like the muses8920 in single channel ?


----------



## igytech

gug42 said:


> Thx for your reply.
> 
> lol I have bought same ship for ZxR and STX so i must  buy some new one
> 
> ...


 
 Member Raymond (which tested much opamps) said that Signetics NE5534N sound very good on ZxR in combination with AD827SQ for I/Vs.
 I use OPA627AP which sound very good for me but they are much expensive (maybe not much better) then NE5534N.
 I don't know will LME49990 benefit over ZxR's LME49710 in buffer section.
  
 Muses8920 are dual channel opamps you can use it in both I/V's and in STX's buffer.
 I used muses8920 in ZxRs I/V but have to say that AD827SQ sound much better.
  
 See experience others in ZxR vs STX thread.


----------



## gug42

Thank you for your answer !
 Well sorry, I realize my cross-post 
  
 By the way, i haven't buy any muses8920, so well it's still  the time to choose between them (same price AD827SQ or muses8920)
 Moreover NE5534N are really cheap, good news 
  
 thx again


----------



## igytech

gug42 said:


> Thank you for your answer !
> Well sorry, I realize my cross-post
> 
> By the way, i haven't buy any muses8920, so well it's still  the time to choose between them (same price AD827SQ or muses8920)
> ...




Changing opamps on blind is expensive sport. I bought AD827SQ for 80$ for each and OPA627AP for 40$ each. That's about whole ZxR. Muses8920 bought for 16$ each.


----------



## gug42

Totaly agree !
  
 Well AD827SQ really sound much better than muses8920 ?  double the price at least 
  
 Regards,


----------



## igytech

gug42 said:


> Totaly agree !
> 
> Well AD827SQ really sound much better than muses8920 ?  double the price at least
> 
> Regards,


 
 More like a triple...
 Yes AD827SQ sound much much better....


----------



## gug42

Ok thx.
 Spending time and money, i take them at Mouser Electronics (hope for the best)
 I have take TI NE5534P from Mouser and Signetics NE5534N  on ebay.  producer really matter ?
  
  
 Regards,


----------



## igytech

gug42 said:


> Ok thx.
> Spending time and money, i take them at Mouser Electronics (hope for the best)
> I have take TI NE5534P from Mouser and Signetics NE5534N  on ebay.  producer really matter ?
> 
> ...




Why NE5534P? According Raymond Signetics NE5534N produced before 1990 sound better then new ones. But it is good start with NE5534N for buffers. Then maybe invest in AD827SQ for I/V's... You didn't say how much money you want to spend because there is Sparkos and Burson option also. That are the best opamps for ZxR according many ZxR users here...


----------



## gug42

I have ordered NE5534p (buffers ) and AD827SQ (I/V) from mouser electronics. And really chip NE5534N from ebay.
I ve take p version because only this version is available at mouser electronics ... and well for the price i want to be sure to have a pair of them with the AD827SQ 

I have seen burson and Sparkos but well, really expensive , out of my price scope, and cant get iem shield in place.

Thx again


----------



## NCSUZoSo

Check out my detailed review of Burson Audio's V5 series op-amps including oscilloscope raw output comparison!
  
 I plan to have a video review up by the end of the month once I get replacement parts in.

 http://www.head-fi.org/products/burson-audio-supreme-sound-opamp-v5/reviews/17827
  
 or on my website here: https://zosoncsu.com/reviews/​


  
  
  
 Also here is my illustration of the ZXR's signal path since I never saw a decent diagram from Creative. Not to say this is the most professional way to show it, haha.
  
  

  
 This is the video I am trying to expand on to create a video review. I would welcome any ideas on ways to use the written review + this type of analysis to make a full-length video review of an op-amp series.

 

 (All of the images/videos were taken & edited by me, please do not remove watermarks)


----------



## randir14

I've tried Googling the answer to my question but I found conflicting information. In order to retain the SBX features when connecting my Sound Blaster Z to an external amp with headphones, am I required to also have an external DAC connected to the card with an optical cable? Or can I simply use something like this to connect the SBZ to the amp: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B015PZ7QO2/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


----------



## PurpleAngel

randir14 said:


> I've tried Googling the answer to my question but I found conflicting information. In order to retain the SBX features when connecting my Sound Blaster Z to an external amp with headphones, am I required to also have an external DAC connected to the card with an optical cable? Or can I simply use something like this to connect the SBZ to the amp: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B015PZ7QO2/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


 
  
 The Creative Z series (Z, Zx, ZxR) can send their SBX Headphone surround sound out the S/PDIF (optical/coaxial) output.
 but not the line-output (RCA or 3.5mm) jacks.


----------



## randir14

purpleangel said:


> The Creative Z series (Z, Zx, ZxR) can send their SBX Headphone surround sound out the S/PDIF (optical/coaxial) output.
> but not the line-output (RCA or 3.5mm) jacks.


 
  
 Thanks. So do you think this would work to keep SBX:
  
 1. SBZ connected to Modi 2 Uber with optical cable
 2. Modi 2 Uber connected to Magni 2 with RCA cables
 3. Headphones plugged into Magni 2


----------



## PurpleAngel

randir14 said:


> Thanks. So do you think this would work to keep SBX:
> 
> 1. SBZ connected to Modi 2 Uber with optical cable
> 2. Modi 2 Uber connected to Magni 2 with RCA cables
> 3. Headphones plugged into Magni 2


 
  
 Yea, I like to push that combo, lower costing sound card, using S/PDIF (optical or coaxial) connected to an external DAC and amp.
 Later on you might even consider swapping the Magni 2 for a tube headphone amplifier.


----------



## randir14

purpleangel said:


> Yea, I like to push that combo, lower costing sound card, using S/PDIF (optical or coaxial) connected to an external DAC and amp.
> Later on you might even consider swapping the Magni 2 for a tube headphone amplifier.


 
  
 Cool, thanks for the help.


----------



## NCSUZoSo

randir14 said:


> Thanks. So do you think this would work to keep SBX:
> 
> 1. SBZ connected to Modi 2 Uber with optical cable
> 2. Modi 2 Uber connected to Magni 2 with RCA cables
> 3. Headphones plugged into Magni 2


 


 I own a highly modded ZXR, but I wanted to give a little input on this question since I own 3 different home setups for headphones, lol.
  
*Option 1:* If you run an optical cable from the SBZ you won't be getting the benefits of the SBZ's DAC (analog sound); you are sending an encoded (digital) signal to another DAC if you use optical. This is a good thing if your highest quality DAC isn't the SBZ, but if it is, see the 2nd option.
  
*Option 2:* If you run RCA cables from the SBZ to the Magni 2 you will be getting the *raw output from the SBZ* (already been through DAC on the SBZ) with all the features of the sound card. I run this setup sometimes when SPDIF won't work right in some software with my Aune T1. So I just run two RCA cables from my ZXR to my Little Bear P5-1 -> Magni 2 or E12.

*Option 3:* You can also run from the amplified headphone out to another amplifier of better quality, but I prefer not to double amp headphones when you can avoid it. This is due to risk of damage to the headphones if crap hits the fan (both volumes @ 100% w/ high gain). You will see people recommending this to maintain the headphone effects, but I recommend using the RCA (line out) method mentioned above over this unless there is something really special offered only out of the headphone jack. If so make sure you never turn your SBZ above say 50% volume, use your 2nd amp as the volume control. I still highly discourage doing this as hum and cross talk is a possibility.

 Most of this is related to information I know to be true on the ZXR and I believe it applies across the board for Z series, someone correct me if I am wrong.


----------



## randir14

ncsuzoso said:


> I own a highly modded ZXR, but I wanted to give a little input on this question since I own 3 different home setups for headphones, lol.
> 
> *Option 1:* If you run an optical cable from the SBZ you won't be getting the benefits of the SBZ's DAC (analog sound); you are sending an encoded (digital) signal to another DAC if you use optical. This is a good thing if your highest quality DAC isn't the SBZ, but if it is, see the 2nd option.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks a lot for the info. The Magni 2 was delivered today and SBX is working with the card connected with a 3.5>RCA cable. Once the Modi arrives it sounds like your first option will be the way to go.


----------



## overhaze

How would you say the Sound Blaster ZX compares to the Audioengine D1 in terms of pure audio quality? On paper the Sound Blaster has better specs. Higher frequency response, higher SNR.


----------



## PurpleAngel

overhaze said:


> How would you say the Sound Blaster ZX compares to the Audioengine D1 in terms of pure audio quality? On paper the Sound Blaster has better specs. Higher frequency response, higher SNR.


 
  
 I would get the Sound Blaster Z card,
 skip on the ACM module, get a headphone extension cable.


----------



## gug42

randir14 said:


> I've tried Googling the answer to my question but I found conflicting information. In order to retain the SBX features when connecting my Sound Blaster Z to an external amp with headphones, am I required to also have an external DAC connected to the card with an optical cable? Or can I simply use something like this to connect the SBZ to the amp: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B015PZ7QO2/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1





Hello 
Related question : can I use hardware effects and support (EAX, 3D surround, dd, dts, etc) with an external DAC (with integrated amp) connected through optical spdif ? 

Thx in advance


----------



## Blotto80

gug42 said:


> Hello
> Related question : can I use hardware effects and support (EAX, 3D surround, dd, dts, etc) with an external DAC (with integrated amp) connected through optical spdif ?
> 
> Thx in advance




Yes, I currently run optical from my SB:Z to my external DAC and then out to my amp. I get the full SBX surround functionality.


----------



## gug42

Thank you for your crystal clear answer


----------



## gug42

Hello,
  
 I have received and tested  my new op amp :
 - I/V : AD827SQ  DUal
 - Buffers : NE5534P Mono (build by TI ... i know, i'm waiting from signetics)
  
  
 And there's missing something ...  perhaps it's the impact ? or the dynamics ... . but i find the sound "bloated". Cleary I'm not "rocking" 
 By the way, good news, no sibilance in  high medium or trebbler.
 I was using a DT1770.
  
  
*Well maybe the probleme come from NE5534P By TI *
*raymond555* says "TI 5534 sounds like crap" so .... i will retry with the stock buffers op amp.
  
 Anothers questions :
 - With the headphone output all  op amp are used ? both buffers and I/V ?
 - Samething or not with RCA output ?
  
 Thank you in advance.
 Regards,


----------



## starfirepro

Just a quick question on the Titanium HD on behalf of a friend of mine - if he uses the optical out of the sound card to his external dac audio-gd NFB-12, does it still use the card dac to process the sound? Or do he have to connect to the RCA outs in order to use the sound card's DAC? 
  
 Either way what would be the best way to get the best possible sound:
  
  
 1. Set  PC to Titanium to NFB-12 dac by Optical out from card.
  
 2. Set PC-Titanium HD to NFB-12 dac by Optical out, then RCA out to a Schiit Asgard amp and plug the headphones to the Asgard? 
  
 2. Set PC-Titanium HD to Schiit Asgard amp by RCA out of soundcard, never use the NFB-12 at all.
  
  
 Cheers for your input in advance, guys.


----------



## kingy

Sound BlasterX G5 how is it in comparison to ZXR in sound quality?


----------



## NCSUZoSo

Upgrading the 1st stage SMD op-amps on the ZXR... I had about 6 of the traces lift off the PCB during desoldering which leaves me with somewhat of a challenge to bridge gaps to the new location for that trace connection (that I had to scratch off plastic to find).
  
 If anyone else thinks about doing this, practice a lot with an SMD learning kit before touching the ZXR. I have a decade of soldering experience, but only about a year of surface mount experience and you can see what happened.
  
*The issue is getting all the legs to heat up and stay molten when you remove them.* If I did it again I would go leg by leg with a standard iron and a tool to lift each leg. Using a hot air re-worker on this did not go well and I ended up using a Weller digital soldering station to remove them.

 Will post back once I finish the mod and will make a thread if it's worth all the trouble.


----------



## PurpleAngel

starfirepro said:


> Just a quick question on the Titanium HD on behalf of a friend of mine - if he uses the optical out of the sound card to his external dac audio-gd NFB-12, does it still use the card dac to process the sound? Or do he have to connect to the RCA outs in order to use the sound card's DAC?
> Either way what would be the best way to get the best possible sound:
> 1. Set  PC to Titanium to NFB-12 dac by Optical out from card.
> 2. Set PC-Titanium HD to NFB-12 dac by Optical out, then RCA out to a Schiit Asgard amp and plug the headphones to the Asgard?
> ...


 
 If he is running S/PDIF (optical or coaxial) from the Ti-HD (Titanium-HD), then he is bypassing the Ti-HD's DAC and using the the NFB-12's DAC (dual WM8741 chips).
 If he has no need for the Ti-HD's CMSS-3D's headphone surround sound, then he can sell off the Ti-HD and connect the NFB-12 straight to the computer (USB or optical).


----------



## starfirepro

Thank you, that sounds very practical and sensible. Will let him know as soon as I talk to him!


----------



## 3stun

I wonder if it has been confirmed that SBX Surround for Headphone is identical to THX Trusturio Pro in old Titanium X-Fi Creative cards.
 I could not find any direct comparisons on Youtube (THX vs SBX).
 Right now I'm picking a card mainly for Headphone HRTF, to output digital signal to external DAC and eventually to Headphone.
  
 From tests on Youtube I figured I prefer both SBX and THX to CMSS-3D (the latter makes sound too bright and weakens bass).
 Just can't choose between the two.


----------



## PurpleAngel

3stun said:


> I wonder if it has been confirmed that SBX Surround for Headphone is identical to THX Trustudio Pro in old Titanium X-Fi Creative cards.
> I could not find any direct comparisons on Youtube (THX vs SBX).
> Right now I'm picking a card mainly for Headphone HRTF, to output digital signal to external DAC and eventually to Headphone.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I'm not the expert......but
 I do not think the older Titanium series of internal sound cards (PCI & PCI-E) used THX Trustudio Pro?
 I believe THX TruStudio Pro came out when Creative launched the Recon3D cards, which used the newer SoundCore3D audio processor.
 The even newer Z series cards use the same SoundCore3D audio processor, but come with SBX software.
  
 My two cents is to get a Sound Blaster Z card and run optical to the external DAC.


----------



## gug42

Yes, dont spend money on ZxR and opamps .... I've done this and well it's "lost" money ...  better to by a schiit dac ....
  
 From my experience, for best combo at "good" price :
 Z => optical out => schiit mudi2 multibit => vala 2 or project ember
  
 Best budget :
 Z => optical out => xduoo xd-05


----------



## kurtextrem

Why optical out, why not just plug something in?


----------



## bigbeard

I use the sbz for surround processing when I game. I have it optical out going into my asgard 2 and bifrost uber.
  
 In the sbz control panel, make sure you go ot the advanced features tab and select "play stereo mix to digital output" so it sends the processed sound to your amp and dac.


----------



## gug42

Best choice ever


----------



## kurtextrem

But if I just plug in my random IEM without an extra DAC / AMP, the sound should be surround, or do I get it wrong?


----------



## 3stun

purpleangel said:


> I'm not the expert......but
> I do not think the older Titanium series of internal sound cards (PCI & PCI-E) used THX Trustudio Pro?
> I believe THX TruStudio Pro came out when Creative launched the Recon3D cards, which used the newer SoundCore3D audio processor.
> The even newer Z series cards use the same SoundCore3D audio processor, but come with SBX software.
> ...


 

Official site says Titanium series have THX...
 As far as I know, Titanium only exist with PCI-E.
 That is because Titanium are 2nd gen X-Fi cards, while the 1st gen (Xtreme Gamer, Fatal1ty series, Elite Pro) existed with PCI as well.
  
 Also check videos on Youtube comparing various HRTF, specifically Bioshock Infinite - it clearly says Titanium was used to record THX Trustudio sound.
  
 My choice is between Titanium (non-HD) and SBZ.
 Of course there is no point in getting higher-end versions if I only need their digital processing capabilities.


----------



## 3stun

kurtextrem said:


> But if I just plug in my random IEM without an extra DAC / AMP, the sound should be surround, or do I get it wrong?


 

 Yep, you do (if you turn it on in card settings, that is).
 External DAC / Amp just gives you an overall better sound quality, with no relation to surround.


----------



## PurpleAngel

3stun said:


> Official site says Titanium series have THX...
> As far as I know, Titanium only exist with PCI-E.
> That is because Titanium are 2nd gen X-Fi cards, while the 1st gen (Xtreme Gamer, Fatal1ty series, Elite Pro) existed with PCI as well.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Your original question was THX vs SBX, which I believe are two separate functions.
 SBX Headphone is for surround sound, while THX is for tweaking audio quality (like for music).
  
 Any Titanium series of sound card (PCI or PCI-E) that comes with THX, will still use CMSS-3D for headphone surround sound (and hardware EAX 5.0)
 The Titanium series of sound cards and older cards like the Xtreme Music, Xtreme Gamer, Fata1ly, Elite Pro, etc all used the same series of DSP chip.
 The Titanium series just used the latest tweaked version of that series of that DSP chip design.
  
 The part of Bioshock Infinite "Titanium was used to record THX Trustudio sound" seems more like a marketing advertisement, then a relevant fact for picking a sound card.


----------



## NCSUZoSo

*1st Stage Rear and Center/Sub SMD op-amps upgraded!* If I did this again I could do it without lifting pads/traces now that I have good desolder wick and MG Chemicals flux & solder paste. Grabbed some ChipQuick, just in case I need it for taking out something with 8+ connections.

This is by far the messiest soldering job I have posted to a forum but never had to repair half a dozen lifted pads/traces and not given up on it, haha. *To my knowledge, nobody has ever tried to replace the SMD op-amps on the ZXR*, I mean who the hell would? An Electrical Engineering student with an addiction to modding hardware! I have dozens of hours already invested into soldering this card doing the DC cap mod and rolling op-amps to find the perfect combo.

 I wasn't going to quit after a pad (connection point) lifted off the PCB with the stock op-amp (or 7 more) leaving me *bare plastic* in its place. Then you need to figure out where the connection comes from (what direction on the PCB), then scratch off some plastic at the nearest spot possible until you see copper and then bridge something between that and the op-amp leg! (Be careful, you can easily scratch off the copper or go too deep in a multi-layer PCB and hit a 2nd, incorrect copper trace)

_Note: 600F is about where the solder used on the ZXr flows easily, at least in dealing with the metal combos I had. Their solder goes molten around 475F but doesn't make solid connections till ~525F+._

 Will let you know my opinions later on if there is any noticeable change going from the stock JRC 2114s  to BB 2604AUs. 



  
  
 The 2nd op-amp from the bottom (in the pic below) had pad #7 pull up and this trace (connection line) actually runs underneath the op-amp itself. This means the leg I added to bridge the lifted pad is running under the op-amp. Try getting that to make a solid connection without bridging legs! Leg/pad #1 on the bottom op-amp is also like this, so this was definitely a learning experience for me, dealing with such close quarter connections/repairs.
  
  

  
  
*(had my lowest end op-amps in place during testing in case of a serious malfunction)*
  
  
 Leg/Pad #1 and Leg/Pad #7 are the outputs of the op-amp which explains why these are the only two traces seen leaving the op-amp. All other legs are inputs & Vcc/GND. Their traces all come from the sides, *so if you ever need to repair the traces on the SMD op-amps remember that. You can always get a trace going towards the outside of the original pads except for pads #1 and #7 (this is true of all dual-dip op-amps in this location on the ZXR, other cards/equipment may vary). For pads #1 and #7 you will need to piggyback onto the correct output trace;* hold a flashlight at the correct angle and you can see the traces (downward at a 45 degree, then straight down). This will usually result in a replacement pad/bridge laying under the op-amp itself which is the hardest way to repair a pulled pad. Avoid damaging these locations!! If nothing else make sure you got pads #1 and #7 off cleanly.
  

  
  


 A reminder, here is the signal chain:


  
 Some of my modding rig tools:
  
  

  
  
 Also, you can buy sockets for SMD to DIP-8, but you only have room for the 1st stage of SMD op-amps, the 2nd stage is surrounded by capacitors. I personally think $5 a piece is a little high for an adapter, but it is a pretty unique item: 


 http://www.ebay.com/itm/361490134147?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


----------



## 3stun

purpleangel said:


> Your original question was THX vs SBX, which I believe are two separate functions.
> SBX Headphone is for surround sound, while THX is for tweaking audio quality (like for music).
> 
> Any Titanium series of sound card (PCI or PCI-E) that comes with THX, will still use CMSS-3D for headphone surround sound (and hardware EAX 5.0)
> ...


 
  
 Well, isn't "surround sound" virtualisation another way of tweaking audio quality?
 You can use THX TruSturio Pro for music, video, gaming just as SBX Surround.
 You might want to read more about THX TruSturio Pro here. It is meant to do the same as SBX Surround. That is why I'm comparing them.
  
 Please take into account that I'm only talking about modern games, with no support for DS3D or OpenAL.
 So CMSS-3D or any other tech only does 7.1/5.1 -> Headphone.
  
 Titanium X-fi cards have CMSS-3D in Game Mode, and THX TruSturio in Entertainment Mode.
 They do their job very differently, which is proved by comparison videos on Youtube.
 BTW the Bioshock Infinite video I referred to is not a marketing one, it just shows how different surround techs do their job and lets you pick which you like best.
  
 Also I heard THX TruSturio could be software tech, calculated on CPU instead of X-Fi DSP. Yet to confirm it.


----------



## PurpleAngel

3stun said:


> Well, isn't "surround sound" virtualisation another way of tweaking audio quality?
> You can use THX TruSturio Pro for music, video, gaming just as SBX Surround.
> You might want to read more about THX TruSturio Pro here. It is meant to do the same as SBX Surround. That is why I'm comparing them.
> 
> ...


 
  
 As CPU processing power has increased over the years, I would expect more audio processing is switched over from the DSP audio processor to the main CPU.
 As Trustudio Pro will work off the DSP used in the Titanium cards and the newer Soundcore3D and Realtek audio processor, I would expect Trustudio Pro to off load a fair amount of it's workload off to the main CPU.
 I would expect Creative Labs to take a fair amount of the Trustudio Pro functions and add it to the newer Z series (Z, Zx, ZxR) cards and integrate with SBX.
  
 If your more into modern games, can't see any reason for buying an older Titanium card, over the newer Z series of cards.


----------



## Shark00n

Hi guys!
I'm about to purchase a SB ZXR for my desktop PC.
I considered some other soundcards but the ZXR looked as good as the Xonar Essence ones (for my needs) and it has the ACM which I love and use a lot for the great mic and easier connecting/disconnecting of audio devices.

My setup is:
-Beyerdynamic DT990 250ohm headphones
-Logitech Z623 2.1 200W speakers

I have a few question:

1) Can I connect my 250ohm headphones to the ACM without issues? Will they be correctly driven and sound pretty much as good as connected straight to the ZXR? Should I turn on the 'high-gain' switch on the software? Will this work thru the ACM?
2) Is there any way to make the software nicer to use? Or a replacement? Profile switching and set up is a pain. I'm no audiophile and just enjoy surround sound gaming with my headphones and ear-popping bassy music on my speakers. A way to quickly change from music to games, movies to spoken word would be awesome. (For instance I have Creative's XFi software on my laptop and it works wonders with it's profiles on the built in speakers)

Thanks!


----------



## 3stun

purpleangel said:


> *I would expect* Creative Labs to take a fair amount of the Trustudio Pro functions and add it to the newer Z series (Z, Zx, ZxR) cards and integrate with SBX.


 
 No offense, but I'm not interested in speculation here, just opinions of those who tested both technologies with their own ears.
 Or some solid info why one tech is better than the other (from strictly technical point of view).


----------



## NCSUZoSo

3stun said:


> No offense, but I'm not interested in speculation here, just opinions of those who tested both technologies with their own ears.
> Or some solid info why one tech is better than the other (from strictly technical point of view).


 
 Do you expect someone here to have insider knowledge of technology covered under NDA and if so, share it publicly?

 Creative doesn't usually leak much info and there isn't enough of a PC soundcard community anymore for them to even bother (unlike with GPU/CPU). I love dedicated PC sound cards, but it feels like audio hardware is moving more and more onto the motherboard (again) or through the GPU. I expect Creative and ASUS to continue making soundcards, but the days of companies like Auzentech (first co. allowed to license X-Fi DSP) are dead.
  
 Best bet is to just keep googling Creative/ASUS New Soundcard for the next 6 months to a year (guessing here).


----------



## PurpleAngel

3stun said:


> No offense, but I'm not interested in speculation here, just opinions of those who tested both technologies with their own ears.
> Or some solid info why one tech is better than the other (from strictly technical point of view).


 
  
 I think if you look at a companie's point of view, it's cheaper to just to rename a product to make it sound newer, then to spend time and money coming up with something new.
  
 Maybe try asking questins about Creative sound cards on this forum.
 http://forums.creative.com/forumdisplay.php?f=6


----------



## bcschmerker4

purpleangel said:


> 3stun said:
> 
> 
> > No offense, but I'm not interested in speculation here, just opinions of those who tested both technologies with their own ears.
> ...


 
 Which is how Creative Laboratories® came up with the SB1550 Audigy 5 and RX - basically a redesign of the SB0610 Audigy 4 for PCI-Express.  I'm still waiting for a shielded PCIe card based on the CA10200-IAT with a MIDI and S/P-DIF breakout harness but no game port (the joystick port being obsoleted in favor of USB), as I could use more independently-adjustable analog inputs.


----------



## thuNDa

3stun said:


> No offense, but I'm not interested in speculation here, just opinions of those who tested both technologies with their own ears.
> Or some solid info why one tech is better than the other (from strictly technical point of view).


 

 I have not compared the surround of the THX suite of the Recon3D/Titanium vs. the SBX-surround personally, but i have read enough posts which suggest that they are NOT the same, and that the majority clearly favours SBX-surround over THX-surround.


----------



## Forty6

I wonder if any kind souls here actually owned / user of the Asrock X79 Extreme9 ? 
This motherboard came with a sound card called Asrock Game blaster which is developed by creative labs . As pic shown below .
I need some honest listening review on this one of any one here happen to own this or had been experience it before .


----------



## PurpleAngel

forty6 said:


> I wonder if any kind souls here actually owned / user of the Asrock X79 Extreme9 ?
> This motherboard came with a sound card called Asrock Game blaster which is developed by creative labs . As pic shown below .
> I need some honest listening review on this one of any one here happen to own this or had been experience it before .


 
  
 My best guess is it's just a redesigned Creative Recon3D sound card.
 So it would use the Soundcore3D audio processor for all DAC functions.
 Where as a Sound Blaster Z or Zx, comes with an add-on CS4398 DAC chip, which provide a DAC function for the headphones and Front Speaker channels.
 So maybe you might consider watching eBay for a good deal on a used SB-Z card.
  
 Or if your willing to up the budget, watch eBay for a good deal on a used (optical input) Modi DAC and Magni amp.
 Plug the Modi into the Asrock Game Blaster card


----------



## gug42

Hello,
  
 Well I was thinking that i can use Equalizer and "SBX Pro Studio effects" throught the SPIDF to an external DAC ?
 And obviously doesn't work @home 
  
 Plz any advice ? Didnt find any switch/activaiton buttons ...
  
 Thx in advance !
  
 Regards,


----------



## Forty6

purpleangel said:


> My best guess is it's just a redesigned Creative Recon3D sound card.
> So it would use the Soundcore3D audio processor for all DAC functions.
> Where as a Sound Blaster Z or Zx, comes with an add-on CS4398 DAC chip, which provide a DAC function for the headphones and Front Speaker channels.
> So maybe you might consider watching eBay for a good deal on a used SB-Z card.
> ...




Thanks , I'll keep the idea on plugging in the modi into the Asrock Game blaster . Actually I already got a brand new in box extreme9 , it's just that I had yet install the mobo into the rig . Plenty of things not yet in place .


----------



## Shark00n

shark00n said:


> Hi guys!
> I'm about to purchase a SB ZXR for my desktop PC.
> I considered some other soundcards but the ZXR looked as good as the Xonar Essence ones (for my needs) and it has the ACM which I love and use a lot for the great mic and easier connecting/disconnecting of audio devices.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Well I got the ZXR and am pretty happy with it. I actually couldn't resist and sould my Beyers too, got a pair of HD650s I was eyeing for a while now.
 I talked with Creative's support about my question and yes, ACM has no influence on output power, no problem using headphones up to 600ohm with it.
  
 The software is what gets me, it's a mess. I have a few doubts which I have been researching but to no avail... Can you guys help me out?
  
 1) The HD650'sare 300ohm, so I should use them in 'Normal gain' mode supposedly. But I read on a few places that the HD650s scale well with power, along with some other headphones, is 600ohm the best option, or even safe to use?
  
 2) How the hell do I configure 5.1? I've read so many theories and different ways to do it. I have my headphones connected to the ACM, plus some 2.1 speakers connected to the ZXR. I should set Windows to 5.1 and in SB Control panel to headphones (or 2.1 speakers according to what I'm using at the time), but then music sounds like sh**. I need to be constantly fiddling with software everytime I just want to switch from headphones to speakers, turning on surround SBX effects on the headphones and turning windows to 2.1 and turning of surround effects everytime I use the speakers, and I switch a lot! Isn't there an easier way?
  
 Thanks!


----------



## thuNDa

shark00n said:


> Well I got the ZXR and am pretty happy with it. I actually couldn't resist and sould my Beyers too, got a pair of HD650s I was eyeing for a while now.
> I talked with Creative's support about my question and yes, ACM has no influence on output power, no problem using headphones up to 600ohm with it.
> 
> The software is what gets me, it's a mess. I have a few doubts which I have been researching but to no avail... Can you guys help me out?
> ...


 
  
 1) To get the power, you need to pull the power - in other words: when you turn the volume up, you pull more power.
 When you listen at 20% volume at normal gain, you won't pull more power when you then listen at the same loudness at high gain, with the respective lower volume setting.
  
 2) you can use "SBZ Switcher", which allows you to configure hotkey for these things.
 For example, i use "CTRL+pageup" to toggle between SBX-Surround, and "CTRL+pagedown" to toggle between speakers and headphones.
 You can also set a different default volume for HP's/Speakers.
 https://sourceforge.net/projects/sbzswitcher/


----------



## gug42

Anyone tried the  dual  opa1612   ? or dual OPA1642 ?
  
 Thank you in advance
  
 Regards,


----------



## NCSUZoSo

forty6 said:


> Thanks , I'll keep the idea on plugging in the modi into the Asrock Game blaster . Actually I already got a brand new in box extreme9 , it's just that I had yet install the mobo into the rig . Plenty of things not yet in place .


 


 I have owned an ASRock Z77 Extreme4, Extreme6 and now run an ASRock Z77 OC Formula.  You will love the Extreme9!


----------



## Forty6

ncsuzoso said:


> I have owned an ASRock Z77 Extreme4, Extreme6 and now run an ASRock Z77 OC Formula.  You will love the Extreme9!




Just managed to drop in the extreme9 into my G7750 with a P2 .
Ok the initial first start was not too well as it doesn't boot into the OS , apparently the mobo is picky with my 16G of trusty Gskill , sweating me out by pulling in n out slot by slot one by one till it accept all 4 and start playing altogether . 

Then another issue pop out , I wasn't know that game blaster was so nitpicking at the pcie slot . I installed that thing into the 3rd and last 16x slot as my intention was to create a bit of air circulation without having to sit just below of the gpu , but again no luck with those x16 slot , that thing lights up and lan appear to be working but the sound core wasn't working , not even able to begin the set-up and the installing of drivers . 
It simply did not detect the damm thing ! 

Without any choice left , I let that thing sit right below at the gpu on the X1 slot . Tada ! Now it's coming altogether ,it detect that damm thing and setup installation , drivers are a breeze .
But the woes doesn't end here . The mobo detect on and off on the LG blu ray drive , occasionally it would appear just fine as it should be , at times it wasn't there at all ! 
I rebooted countless times but to no avail . It did power up , and disc seems to be spinning inside but that's all , it doesn't show up in Windows , I suspect the issue lies with either the sata cable itself or the sata 3 port on the mobo , but I wasn't too sure , the only way to find out was to pull the gpu out , and re cable / change of port to test it out . 

Tonight is going to be a long night . And lastly , that game blaster sound core thing is a garbage nothing more . That thing sound horrible even my asg 2.5 wasn't able to get anything good out of it . 
It was a shame as no doubt is really a good looking card , but sound awful . It was a let down .
But it came with the $400 extreme9 , on hindsight I should have known not to expect too much of it .. it's just horrible and awfully sounds . A garbage .

Tonight I got more work to do , to wake the blu ray from the board .


----------



## igytech

For people that are interested Creative published new drivers for ZxR in january 2017.


----------



## freshmind

Hi guys, 
  
 I've done a lot of reading on output impedance subject and output impedance of SB ZXR. 
  
 Some says its 10 ohm, others say its measured 40 ohm. 
  
 So I'm using it with Fidelio X2, which has 30 ohm impedance. (Tyll says it is 35 ohm) 
  
 Everything sounds great... but I wonder if I am missing something or I could get more from my cans. 
  
 Bass responses, frequancy mismatching... could I spot this kind of issues by myself ? I wonder if someone used SB ZXR with Fidelio X2 and done measurements... 
  
 Fidelio X2 is my end line for this period of time(money issues and sound signature), so is ZXR. Because I do lot of gaming and only DSP that I found useful and enjoyable is the SBX, period.(I've tried countless DSP-VSS types) The connectivity is also a plus side for me. I even connected my PS4 to ZXR.  
  
 So, other than changing sound card or headphones, is there a way that I can lower the output impedence of ZXR. For example, a interconnection like cable+ from Burson.  (or do I even need to do something like that)
  
 I trust your words guys. Thanks in advance.


----------



## deusex3

freshmind said:


> SB ZXR.
> Some says its 10 ohm, others say its measured 40 ohm.
> 
> So, other than changing sound card or headphones, is there a way that I can lower the output impedence of ZXR. For example, a interconnection like cable+ from Burson.  (or do I even need to do something like that)


 
 You don't need in lowering output impedance of soundcard or cable, output resistor(39Ohm) needed for property work TPA6120 on capacitance load.

 If you want to increase the sound quality -> remove 4 Ceramic capacitors and replace JRC2114D with THS4062


----------



## germanium

deusex3 said:


> You don't need in lowering output impedance of soundcard or cable, output resistor(39Ohm) needed for property work TPA6120 on capacitance load.
> 
> 
> If you want to increase the sound quality -> remove 4 Ceramic capacitors and replace JRC2114D with THS4062




Texas instruments actually calls for a ten ohm resiter at output so yes output impedance can be lowered to ten ohms. Is it worthwhile to do that though? Really depends on headphone. Many headphone sound fine with the higher output impedance. Etymotic research actually makes a cable with about a 75 ohm resistance for thier ER4P earphones which is supposed make them more accurate.

There is much misinformation here regarding damping factor, mainly because the number given for it misrepresents how it works because of the way it is measured. The way it is measured gives the impression that damping would be more effective with high impedance drivers than low impedance drivers but the opposite is actually true because of the current that a low impedance driver can generate is much higher so a low impedance driver will stop moving quicker when the amp reaches a no signal point after a peak than a high impedance driver would. This is opposite what the damping factor measurement would indicate given that high impedance drivers compared to a low output impedance amp gives bigger numbers for damping factor than a low impedance driver would.

It is measured by the impedance of the driver divided by the ouput impedance of the amp. However a high impedance driver cannot source a lot of current compare to a low impedance driver & it is the current that the amp uses to damp the driver so the damping actually works better on low impedance drivers than it does for high impedance drivers.

That is why you will hear very little if any difference with high impedance driver headphones regardless of ouput impedance of amplifier


----------



## VORR

Hi. I bought Creative SB Z card. And I have one setting in drivers that makes me confused. It is called "distance to speakers". By default it is 0.7 m. You can not decrease the value, just increase it. What is this setting? Is it some sort of post-processing that is always on? When it is set to 0.7 m, does any of post processing take place? I would like to disable any post-processing, since I'm only interested in quality for listening to music.


----------



## blinkstar

If I had to guess, I would say that is supposed to the distance between your listening position, and the location of the speakers. It wouldn't involve post-processing, but it could involve a delay in the time it takes for a particular sound to be played in that speaker. But that is just a guess.


----------



## bluex

Would you please tell me, guys, if it's worth the upgrade from Zx to ZxR for gaming and music ?
 I'm using only the headphones, Shure SRH 1540
 Does the ZxR sounds better than Zx ?
 Thank you


----------



## PurpleAngel

bluex said:


> Would you please tell me, guys, if it's worth the upgrade from Zx to ZxR for gaming and music ?
> I'm using only the headphones, Shure SRH 1540
> Does the ZxR sounds better than Zx ?
> Thank you


 
  
 The Z and Zx and ZxR use the same Soundcore3D audio processor, so are equal when it comes to SBX Headphone surround sound.
  
 The ZxR does come with a better DAC chip and op-amps (operational amplifiers), then the Zx (& Z)
 How much practical improvement in audio quality, with the ZxR over the Zx, not something I can answer.


----------



## necropimp

vorr said:


> Hi. I bought Creative SB Z card. And I have one setting in drivers that makes me confused. It is called "distance to speakers". By default it is 0.7 m. You can not decrease the value, just increase it. What is this setting? Is it some sort of post-processing that is always on? When it is set to 0.7 m, does any of post processing take place? I would like to disable any post-processing, since I'm only interested in quality for listening to music.




it simply sets a delay for each channel so the sounds reach the listening position at the same time... mostly useful for surround sound setups since stereo configurations more often than not have the 2 speakers equal distance from the listener while surround setups are not as easy to keep all the speakers equal distance

for example at my desk my surround speakers are closer to my head than my front l/r and my center channel is actually farther from my head... now this example is one where the difference in distance is measured in a couple inches and makes no real difference some desk layouts may need a more drastic shift in the surround positioning where you are talking feet of difference so playing the sounds in the fronts a hair behind the surrounds balances it a little


----------



## Rayz

Can anybody here please give attention on my ZXR post?
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/840731/zxr-beating-the-hell-out-of-stx-ii


----------



## VORR

blinkstar said:


> It wouldn't involve post-processing, but it could involve a delay in the time it takes for a particular sound to be played in that speaker. But that is just a guess.


 
  


necropimp said:


> it simply sets a delay for each channel so the sounds reach the listening position at the same time...


 
  
 Thanks for respond!
  
 It turns out that only the difference in the distance to the left and right channel matters? For example, a distance of 2'4'' is now set for each speaker. If I set any EQUAL value, for example, 7'10 "(maximum) for each, nothing will change? And ONLY if values for left and right channel are different a stream to one of that channels (depending on which is further) will be sent with a delay. Right?


----------



## x7007

What options should I play games  when they have to choose 5.1/Surround ?  Home-Cinema ? Stereo ? HI-FI ? Headphones ?  usually choosing Headphones is not good because then it uses it's own HTRF  so it's not good.  but I saw people using this for Battlefield 1  Surround + Headphones with 7.1 GSX 1000 device.
  
 What should I choose when using the Creative ZXR  ?            
 What should I use when using the Asus Xonar Phoebus ?
  
 it is so confusing I'm not sure anymore.
  
 Anyway to check what it sound correctly ?
  
  
  
  
  


bcschmerker4 said:


> Which is how Creative Laboratories® came up with the SB1550 Audigy 5 and RX - basically a redesign of the SB0610 Audigy 4 for PCI-Express.  I'm still waiting for a shielded PCIe card based on the CA10200-IAT with a MIDI and S/P-DIF breakout harness but no game port (the joystick port being obsoleted in favor of USB), as I could use more independently-adjustable analog inputs.


 
 And how is the ,. is it any good compare to the ZXR ?     I liked the CMSS/3D  , but is it really better still ?


----------



## PurpleAngel

x7007 said:


> What options should I play games  when they have to choose 5.1/Surround ?  Home-Cinema ? Stereo ? HI-FI ? Headphones ?  usually choosing Headphones is not good because then it uses it's own HTRF  so it's not good.  but I saw people using this for Battlefield 1  Surround + Headphones with 7.1 GSX 1000 device.
> 
> What should I choose when using the Creative ZXR  ?
> What should I use when using the Asus Xonar Phoebus ?
> ...


 
  
 I believe "Home Cinema" setting will work well with a sound card that come with Dolby,
 sound cards with the C-Media audio processors, like a lot of the Asus sound cards that come with Dolby Headphone.


----------



## x7007

purpleangel said:


> I believe "Home Cinema" setting will work well with a sound card that come with Dolby,
> sound cards with the C-Media audio processors, like a lot of the Asus sound cards that come with Dolby Headphone.


 does it have the surround distance that you can hear something and know where it coming from ? I find it hard to hear using the sbx. some test someone did I barely heard the FPS footsteps . let's say someone talking on left so if you turn around you will start hearing him from all around depends on your location and distance from it low and high below and above ?


----------



## bigbeard

I have active speakers that have a line-level sub out. 
 I want to buy a powered sub.
  
 The system is used on my PC, and I have a SBZ.
  
 The problem is for movies, the speakers wont receive the .1 channel to send to the sub.
  
 The speakers are connect by usb now, and they have their built in amp/dac.
  
 If I am able to connect my speakers to the L/R line-out of the SBZ, and then connect the powered sub to the sub-out of SBZ, will this solve my issue of losing out the LFE?
  
 Will/Can I have to use SBZ to crossover the stereo channels to the subwoofer at 80hz?
  
 I was thinking of leaving windows and sbz as 5.1, then deselecting center, rear, and surround, and just leave front and subwoofer selected, and set the crossover, all from sbz pro studio.
  
 Should I select the speakers as full-range or not?


----------



## PurpleAngel

bigbeard said:


> I have active speakers that have a line-level sub out.
> I want to buy a powered sub.
> The system is used on my PC, and I have a SBZ.
> The problem is for movies, the speakers wont receive the .1 channel to send to the sub.
> ...


 
  
 What is the make and model of your powered (active) speakers?


----------



## bigbeard

purpleangel said:


> What is the make and model of your powered (active) speakers?


 

 ​KEF LS50 Wireless
 http://us.kef.com/ls50-wireless


----------



## PurpleAngel

bigbeard said:


> ​KEF LS50 Wireless
> http://us.kef.com/ls50-wireless


 
  
 Your KEF LS50 powered speakers are designed to work with a normal self-powered sub-woofer.
 So the LS50 take in a 2.0 signal (which is normal), then shoot off a copy of the lower frequency, thru the sub-woofer output jack (single RCA jack).
  
 A 2.0 signal will (normally) carry the part of the signal that goes to the sub-woofer.


----------



## bigbeard

Yes, that is true, and optimal, for music playback.

However, movies in 5.1 have a separate LFE channel sent to subwoofer...which in the normal scenario sub will miss out on.
This is why, for movies, i am asking will i be able to connect to the soundcard itself, so it can down mox and send out the LFE channel.


----------



## PurpleAngel

bigbeard said:


> Yes, that is true, and optimal, for music playback.
> 
> However, movies in 5.1 have a separate LFE channel sent to sub-woofer...which in the normal scenario sub will miss out on.
> This is why, for movies, i am asking will i be able to connect to the sound card itself, so it can down mix and send out the LFE channel.


 
  
 While i think it's great that your trying to be innovative with your audio 
 I think your trying to make things more complicated then needed.
  
 Your attempt to get a a fully separate sub-woofer channel might(?) make you lose out on some of the center and rear channel audio clarity.


----------



## bigbeard

I am not sure if you understand...watching a movie with missing lfe channel is actually quite bad


----------



## PurpleAngel

bigbeard said:


> I am not sure if you understand...watching a movie with missing lfe channel is actually quite bad


 
  
 Buy a sub-woofer and connect it to the LS50's sub-woofer output.
 Contact KEF's tech support, see what they have to say about what kind of signal the LS50's sub-woofer port feeds to a sub-woofer.
  
 And yes, select full range speakers in the computer's audio settings.


----------



## Casef

3stun said:


> I wonder if it has been confirmed that SBX Surround for Headphone is identical to THX Trusturio Pro in old Titanium X-Fi Creative cards.
> I could not find any direct comparisons on Youtube (THX vs SBX).
> Right now I'm picking a card mainly for Headphone HRTF, to output digital signal to external DAC and eventually to Headphone.
> 
> ...



I know I'm replying to a fairly old comment, but - I'm the guy who made the Bioshock Infinite virtual surround comparison video. I've been long planning a much more comprehensive comparison that would include SBX, as well as several other virtual surround technologies I was able to get my hands on (though I'm still missing quite a few, but it's unlikely I will be able to get the necessary hardware in the forseeable future), but still couldn't get to actually do it - amongst other reasons because I'd like it to be as complete as possible, covering as many of the available virtual surround solutions as possible, including different settings and modes. And that's not an easy thing to do, and, worse of all, a pretty expensive thing to do.

However, I can tell you absolutely certainly, that as far as THX TruStudio Surround on the Titanium HD and SBX Surround on SB Omni 5.1 are concerned, they definitely sound different (even through the same DAC). I haven't had a chance to compare SBX Surround on different hardware to confirm the way it sounds is independent on hardware, but on those two devices, there's definitely difference. THX (to me) sounds more "studio-like", with less reverb and affecting the original sound less, while SBX sounds a bit more "cinema-like". I also hear difference in positioning of the virtual channels and in how the slider affects the overall sound - THX (again, to me - YMMV) sounds a bit more "spherical" if you will, while SBX kinda sounds "stretched to the sides" a lot, there's a more emphasis on the left/right positioning while the front/back is deemphasized even further than it is with THX.

If I set the surround slider in THX at around 20 percent, I can get a sound that kinda sorta surrounds me, even though I'd like the rear cues to be more prominently placed in the back and less to the sides. With SBX, I pretty much can't find a setting I'd like - for me, it's either the front left and right channels sound way too separated for my tastes while the rear left and right cues are at least somewhat coming from the rear, or I can tweak the settings to make the front cues sound more natural, but then I'm pretty much not able to tell side left/right cues from rear left/right one's - they just sound like they're both coming from almost the same direction respectively, too much to the sides.

So as you can probably tell, I'm not overly thrilled by SBX. I still prefer THX Surround over the SBX one, and I much prefer Dolby Headphone over both of them, despite its reverb (which you can get used to, kinda) - not just because thanks to the virtual speaker shifter, I can position the virtual speakers EXACTLY where I want them, tweaking the surround experience precisely to my needs.


----------



## x7007

Casef said:


> I know I'm replying to a fairly old comment, but - I'm the guy who made the Bioshock Infinite virtual surround comparison video. I've been long planning a much more comprehensive comparison that would include SBX, as well as several other virtual surround technologies I was able to get my hands on (though I'm still missing quite a few, but it's unlikely I will be able to get the necessary hardware in the forseeable future), but still couldn't get to actually do it - amongst other reasons because I'd like it to be as complete as possible, covering as many of the available virtual surround solutions as possible, including different settings and modes. And that's not an easy thing to do, and, worse of all, a pretty expensive thing to do.
> 
> However, I can tell you absolutely certainly, that as far as THX TruStudio Surround on the Titanium HD and SBX Surround on SB Omni 5.1 are concerned, they definitely sound different (even through the same DAC). I haven't had a chance to compare SBX Surround on different hardware to confirm the way it sounds is independent on hardware, but on those two devices, there's definitely difference. THX (to me) sounds more "studio-like", with less reverb and affecting the original sound less, while SBX sounds a bit more "cinema-like". I also hear difference in positioning of the virtual channels and in how the slider affects the overall sound - THX (again, to me - YMMV) sounds a bit more "spherical" if you will, while SBX kinda sounds "stretched to the sides" a lot, there's a more emphasis on the left/right positioning while the front/back is deemphasized even further than it is with THX.
> 
> ...



Nice, I didn't like the SBX at all.    as I bought the Creative ZXR I really didn't enjoy games as before.
S
What can you say about the Asus Strix Raid DLX Virtual Surround ?  you can choose and shift the surround a bit there in the Strix Sonic Studio.


----------



## Casef (May 11, 2017)

x7007 said:


> Nice, I didn't like the SBX at all.    as I bought the Creative ZXR I really didn't enjoy games as before.
> S
> What can you say about the Asus Strix Raid DLX Virtual Surround ?  you can choose and shift the surround a bit there in the Strix Sonic Studio.



Sadly nothing as I had not had a chance to test it. It's a pretty expensive card (as are most soundcards nowadays). I'd love to get my hands on one, but it's not likely to happen any time soon.


----------



## bigbeard

Do you think it is beneficial to apply sbx to a speaker stereo setup when gaming, or is it only good for using it with headphones?


----------



## BrightCandle

bigbeard said:


> Do you think it is beneficial to apply sbx to a speaker stereo setup when gaming, or is it only good for using it with headphones?



I think so. It is applying some sense of directionality beyond basic stereo with natural crosstalk but its clearly not as good as the headphone mode especially for gaming.


----------



## Garzhad (May 23, 2017)

gug42 said:


> Yes, dont spend money on ZxR and opamps .... I've done this and well it's "lost" money ...  better to by a schiit dac ....
> 
> From my experience, for best combo at "good" price :
> Z => optical out => schiit mudi2 multibit => vala 2 or project ember
> ...


There's people in the zxr vs thread that would probably disagree with you. The v5i's are obviously pricey as hell but theres a 'budget' op-amp set for like 20 bucks or so.

This is the kind of thing i've worried about, though, whats the more cost effective solution. On a sale you can get the ZxR for under $200, and swap the op amps for an extra Jackson, and according to the vs thread they say it sounds better than a schitt stack(in this case, $518 for the Z card and schiit stack) . And for all intents and purposes it seems the ZxR uses higher quality DAC/AMP on it's board vs the schiit stack suggested. Just seems like everyone has their own opinion on whats better or not which ultimately Really doesn't help other people decide on a mid to high range audio solution.


----------



## Darch

Anyone hear anything about a new Sound Blaster card announced today?


----------



## Elocai (Jun 13, 2017)

Sound BlasterX AE-5, should be released in july ... it has RGB lighting but specs sound interesting

If this one has swappable op amps i'll probably buy it

I know Im perverted nerd if the first think I want to do with a new soundcard is to see her naked
http://images.idgesg.net/images/article/2017/06/soundblaster_ae5_y-100725528-orig.jpg

no swapable opams... such a turn off


----------



## genclaymore

It uses LME4562 op-amp for all of it channels, which is better then the common used JRC's that cards without op-amp sockets tend to use. I saw an twitter post mentioning that the RGB can be turned off by the software, It looks like it could work really well for an source.I am keeping an eye on it,I Also i emailed creative to see if it supported DSD, i hoping it does since the specs for the E9016K2M says the chip does, but just making sure. It be nice if it does so it gives me an second option in the same price range I can look at and decide on when the time is right.

All we need is reviews to get the idea of how the sound card sounds.


----------



## x7007 (Jun 13, 2017)

Elocai said:


> Sound BlasterX AE-5, should be released in july ... it has RGB lighting but specs sound interesting
> 
> If this one has swappable op amps i'll probably buy it
> 
> ...


I wouldn't even think about buying creative till they really support 7.1 and upgrade their VSS.  SBX is just not cut for it. it's good, but I think the Asus VSS is just better, because it is 7.1 .

I don't think 32bit DAC and 384 Khz will help with gaming, it will only supported for mastering, you just won't have any games support this, so I have no idea what this will give to gamers .. again, the ESS Sabre is awesome AMP  , one of the best , but you won't have any upgrade quality if you already have a good AMP + DAC . to compare the Asus Strix RAID DLX and the GSX 1000 ..

And who the hell need the LED .. it's been already a clown Case with all this , Motherboard,GPUs,Fans,Ram - RGB leds , also not forget Keyboards,Mouse .  Case it self and now SoundCards ... the hell with this really..   If you will want to sleep it will take you more than 5 min to turn of all the RGB lightning on all of the devices ... because there are so many.  or some people might like to feel in wonderland and really want to have colourful night ... LoL


----------



## igytech

It is primary gaming card, not hi-fi. That is a reason that don't have swappable opamps.


----------



## RitzyBusiness

*BlasterX Acoustic Engine
*
I am curious how it will compare to SBX, and if it will still be capable of using the optical out.  Only reason I buy these cards~

Though, at least from the specs they are definitely trying to compete for higher fidelity of audio despite being a gamer card.  It will never replace my dac, but raising the baseline for everyone is not a bad thing.  Granted Soundblaster  cards are pretty niche these days.


----------



## DW75 (Jun 17, 2017)

I am also a Creative ZXR owner. I ended up upgrading all 4 of the stock opamps on it. I replaced them all with the LME49710HA Metal Can opamps on adapters. For anyone who has not done this, I highly suggest it. Once you do this upgrade, the ZXR literally sounds like a different sound card. The bass becomes very fast, extended, and tight. The sounstage, and instrument separation completely opens up. Music offers far more width and depth, with much improved imaging. The treble extension, detail, and clarity vastly improves. It improves every element of the sound greatly.


----------



## x7007

DW75 said:


> I am also a Creative ZXR owner. I ended up upgrading all 4 of the stock opamps on it. I replaced them all with the LME49710HA Metal Can opamps on adapters. For anyone who has not done this, I highly suggest it. Once you do this upgrade, the ZXR literally sounds like a different sound card. The bass becomes very fast, extended, and tight. The sounstage, and instrument separation completely opens up. Music offers far more width and depth, with much improved imaging. The treble extension, detail, and clarity vastly improves. It improves every element of the sound greatly.



why not the  LME49990  ?

I would always prefer ESS over Texas


----------



## PurpleAngel

RitzyBusiness said:


> *BlasterX Acoustic Engine
> *
> I am curious how it will compare to SBX, and if it will still be capable of using the optical out.  Only reason I buy these cards~
> Though, at least from the specs they are definitely trying to compete for higher fidelity of audio despite being a gamer card.  It will never replace my DAC, but raising the baseline for everyone is not a bad thing.  Granted Sound Blaster  cards are pretty niche these days.


As the Z series and the AE-5 both use the same Soundcore3D audio processor, Creative's BlasterX Acoustic engine might just be Creative's SBX with the latest revisions (just guessing).


----------



## x7007

review of the AE-5


----------



## DW75

x7007 said:


> why not the  LME49990  ?
> 
> I would always prefer ESS over Texas



I actually have the LME49990 in my M-Stage HPA-2. Indeed, it is also very good. However, in testing, the LME49710HA Metal Can version is an even higher step up in sound quality.


----------



## SCTinkering

DW75 said:


> I am also a Creative ZXR owner. I ended up upgrading all 4 of the stock opamps on it. I replaced them all with the LME49710HA Metal Can opamps on adapters. For anyone who has not done this, I highly suggest it. Once you do this upgrade, the ZXR literally sounds like a different sound card. The bass becomes very fast, extended, and tight. The sounstage, and instrument separation completely opens up. Music offers far more width and depth, with much improved imaging. The treble extension, detail, and clarity vastly improves. It improves every element of the sound greatly.



I haven't been on the forum for a while, but I just KNOW this is sticky posted somewhere, the instructions/"how I did the actual swap" time to engage search over 229 pages!


----------



## DW75

I have no idea. I did not read the Creative ZXR thread. I just posted my opamp replacements I ended up doing. I got my card only a couple months ago.


----------



## umeng2002 (Jun 25, 2017)

Creative is claiming 7.1 Virtual Headphone for the new card. So I'm guessing they updated SBX Pro Studio. I would assume it presents 7.1 channels to Windows, and just down mixes it to 5.1 channels if you're using 5.1 analog output.

Really interested in the reviews. My SBz has had no issues... mainly because I only use the optical output... analog channel switching bugs and other bugs with these cards only seem to related to analog out.

---

I take that back, there is one bug with my SBz even when using optical output.

The "speakers" audio resolution and frequency won't respect the "shared mode" setting in Windows when a WASAPI program finishes taking over the SPDIF-Out device.

After the WASAPI session is over, say when listening to a CD in foobar, shared mode audio using the speakers is stuck on 44.1 kHz instead of going back to 48 kHz (my shared mode setting).

It obviously has something do with how Creative tunnels the "speakers" to the "SPDIF-Out" device when you select "Play stereo mix to digital output."

But that's not a big bug. I just play a 48 kHz file when done using 44.1 kHz audio... or just doing a 48 kHz test in the audio device settings will set the optical port back to 48 kHz.


----------



## x7007

umeng2002 said:


> Creative is claiming 7.1 Virtual Headphone for the new card. So I'm guessing they updated SBX Pro Studio. I would assume it presents 7.1 channels to Windows, and just down mixes it to 5.1 channels if you're using 5.1 analog output.
> 
> Really interested in the reviews. My SBz has had no issues... mainly because I only use the optical output... analog channel switching bugs and other bugs with these cards only seem to related to analog out.
> 
> ...



he says on the review 5.1 surround emulation ...


----------



## RPGWiZaRD (Jun 28, 2017)

Wouldn't suprise me if they just added the same thing that is present in G5 and E5 USB cards:






FYI, I have a Soundblaster G5 and Virtual surround 5.1 is prefferred IMO to 7.1, too many channels is only bad for headphones, too much "directions" to interpret and the steps get more narrower between them, meanwhile 5.1 the directions step out better as there's more space between making it easier to interpet that specific direction. Well that's how I'd sum it up anyway based on my own testing.


----------



## rudyae86 (Jun 28, 2017)

I honestly would wait to purchase this card....mainly because Windows has Dolby Atmos for headphones and Windows Sonic. That is not to say that those 2 don't have any problems, which they do but I am hoping that they will be fixing and implementing more features in the coming months. Still using our higher end gear would be best when used along the different types of VSS we have available.

EDIT: It is now for sale on their site. Amazon will have it on July 5th but you can order now

https://us.creative.com/p/sound-cards/sound-blasterx-ae-5

Hardware wise, I think it is worth it althought the price probably is given because of the whole RGB bling. Get rid of the RGB and I will purchase it for 100 no questions asked.


----------



## thrgk

I was wondering if the sound blaster z can be used with the dt990 600ohm? I know it states or can but wanted to ask around.


----------



## BrightCandle

thrgk said:


> I was wondering if the sound blaster z can be used with the dt990 600ohm? I know it states or can but wanted to ask around.



In my opinion no it can't. There was a clear and noticeable improvement going from the soundblaster Z to a Schiit Magni 2 for a pair of HD 598s which are some of the easiest to drive headphones you can find. I also ended up using a Modi on the optical out to bypass the DAC and got a reasonable improvement as well, so realistically the SBZ really IMO isn't suitable for high ohm headphones, its poor for low ohm ones.


----------



## thrgk

Ok but when I am using the headphone for computer only I do not  have many choices.

Just get the 250ohm I guess? HD598 arent great with gaming i saw so wanted dt990 pro


----------



## PurpleAngel

thrgk said:


> I was wondering if the sound blaster z can be used with the dt990 600ohm? I know it states or can but wanted to ask around.


I believe I tried my DT990 600-Ohm plugged into the SB-Z card, I guess it drove the DT990 decently, but the DT990 really needs to be used with a more powerful head amp.


----------



## mindbomb

RPGWiZaRD said:


> Wouldn't suprise me if they just added the same thing that is present in G5 and E5 USB cards:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Oh man, that headphone surround for line/optical out option is pretty sweet. Hopefully it is on the new cards.


----------



## pr0g4m1ng

AFAIK all cards since the X-Fi Titanium can "play stereo mix to digital output". http://support.creative.com/kb/ShowArticle.aspx?sid=107538


----------



## Anarion

BrightCandle said:


> In my opinion no it can't. There was a clear and noticeable improvement going from the soundblaster Z to a Schiit Magni 2 for a pair of HD 598s which are some of the easiest to drive headphones you can find. I also ended up using a Modi on the optical out to bypass the DAC and got a reasonable improvement as well, so realistically the SBZ really IMO isn't suitable for high ohm headphones, its poor for low ohm ones.


Just curious... My Zx is just plain and simple unusable if I plug my HD 595's directly into the headphone out in this card. It's so damn loud. Heck, even the line out is so loud that without the volume pot that came with the card I could only set Windows volume to 4% at max before my ears start to bleed. Unless by noticeable improvement you mean that those cans became usable, I don't buy it at all that Z/Zx isn't enough to get the max out of HD 598/595/599.


----------



## BrightCandle

Anarion said:


> Just curious... My Zx is just plain and simple unusable if I plug my HD 595's directly into the headphone out in this card. It's so damn loud. Heck, even the line out is so loud that without the volume pot that came with the card I could only set Windows volume to 4% at max before my ears start to bleed. Unless by noticeable improvement you mean that those cans became usable, I don't buy it at all that Z/Zx isn't enough to get the max out of HD 598/595/599.



There is no issue with the volume, but its not a clear controlled driving of the headphones and its very noticeable on a pair of 598s let alone something better.


----------



## Elocai

You're on Win10, they implented a new audio path, increasing volume insanely over Win7. But you can actually decrease the Volume by 15db so volume control is useful again.


----------



## igytech

Have to put in this thread as warning.
Creative Z series soundcards have working problem with Gigabyte AM4 motherboards. 
Problem can't be solved with todays UEFIs on first motherboard revisions.
Gigabayte and Creative know for this problem. Creative don't have solutions for this problems. Gigabyte support tell to wait UEFI update but also told some users that some motherboards have hardware issue. They still didn't provide any solution. So don't buy Gigabayte motherboards with first revisions or check did they fix problens if you want have working soundcards.


----------



## Onik

NCSUZoSo said:


> Sorry I never answered your question, but it's pretty much impossible and I think these two pictures will tell you why:


Is this mod better than Burson V5/V6 Op Amps??


----------



## gug42

Different, you can do it with or without burson : adding some mkp caps close to the AOP.  Mkp are usually better than chemical (faster reaction, less impedance, better sound).


----------



## gug42

About AOP can you give me some  other recommandation than muses8920, AD827SQ, Sigma NE5534NE and of course burson ? 
Any good stuff for buffers ?

Thank you in advance !


----------



## Shark00n

Hey guys! Few questions regarding the ACM on a ZXR:

- Does it hurt sound quality at all? What about with high impedance headphones?
- Will it work on a different sound card, like intended?

Thanks!


----------



## x7007 (Sep 28, 2017)

Shark00n said:


> Hey guys! Few questions regarding the ACM on a ZXR:
> 
> - Does it hurt sound quality at all? What about with high impedance headphones?
> - Will it work on a different sound card, like intended?
> ...



yes, the acm hurt the performance or sound, unlike the. asus ones.

I am using the Zxr Acm with asus strix dlx raid as micrphone, and it works perfect.

my headphones is connected to Mayflower electronics O2  amp with Gsx 1000


----------



## Shark00n

x7007 said:


> yes, the acm hurt the performance or sound, unlike the. asus ones.
> 
> I am using the Zxr Acm with asus strix dlx raid as micrphone, and it works perfect.
> 
> my headphones is connected to Mayflower electronics O2  amp with Gsx 1000



Too bad those don't have mics. I really like the mic on the ACM. What would be the best way to replace it? Keeping access to the headphone port on the desk, volume control and a boom mic?


----------



## x7007

Shark00n said:


> Too bad those don't have mics. I really like the mic on the ACM. What would be the best way to replace it? Keeping access to the headphone port on the desk, volume control and a boom mic?



Usually it would be special devices for that kind of things, but not that I know of, at least not from what I heard or experienced with.   I also have mic connector on the gsx1000, so I stil testing, because no need to use drivers for the gsx1000, so it's better.
Didn't see anyone recommend something that can do what u want, usually it's amplifier with usb mic or something.


----------



## KillSwitx

Hi there,
the first post on the forum so, hello to everyone from Portugal!
So, i want to upgrade my ZxR op-amps since i've had this card since 2014 and i thought to give it a little refresh!
I'm a little lost on what op-amps to get.
I've been looking at 2 different ones form Burson for different reasons.
a) V5i
b) V6 Vivid's
But this is just because i didn't spend more time searching what other options there are 
Although the budget is always something i take into account, i feel that i want to do this upgrade in order to get the most of the card. 
The only reason i'm not totally decided for the V6's its because i saw an install and seemed that the available space was not enough so some caps needed to be "bent". I didn't really like that but it's not a deal breaker.
The V5i is just because of the small footprint 
So, my questions to you guys is, what's the best upgrade path for the ZxR in terms of op-amps? ( you can add other op-amps then Burson's )
Thank you
Pedro S.


----------



## ROKUGAN

Hi Pedro,

I can´t give you a direct answer, because I´m actually in the same spot as you (not sure what upgrade path to take). But if you want to look here this forum as a bit more active and someone just installed the V6 Vivid's and posted some pics:

http://www.overclock.net/t/1337761/official-creative-sound-blaster-z-zx-zxr-series-club/5650


----------



## ROKUGAN

Ok, forget it...just found out that it was actually YOU the one who installed the V6!!!! XDDD

http://www.overclock.net/t/1337761/...aster-z-zx-zxr-series-club/5630#post_26496653

Come on man, give some feedback on how those sound!


----------



## Red Dragon (Jan 19, 2018)

I bought a ZxR.  To me it sounded like garbage. Then I installed Burson V5i op amps into it, and it started to sound amazing.

However, my volume control plans are not working out.  Before I bought the card, I thought that I'd be able to use the ACM to control the volume of my LSR30X (the Massdrop limited edition version of the 305s).  Then I learned it only works for headphone volumes.

So as an alternative, I tried plugging the ZxR into a Magni 3 as a preamp.  However, if I do that, then it adds a very noticeable hiss. I'm not sure if that is caused by my monoprice cables or the Magni 3 device, and I don't have other cables or amps to swap out for testing.  But anyway, I find the ACM's volume knob to be a lot more comfortable to use than the Magni 3's, so even if the cables are the issue, I'd rather get a new & better volume knob anyway.

So I was hoping someone could recommend me a good volume knob that I can connect to my ZxR in order to control my speakers' volume.  Ideally, I'd want this volume knob to meet these conditions:

1. As close in structure to the ACM as possible (i.e. a large knob set horizontally on a relatively small pedestal, as opposed to say, a large knob set on a bulky rectangular box).

2. Will not add hiss and/or degrade the sound quality in any way.

3. Does not interface with my PC via USB (prior to buying a ZxR, I tried using a Modi Multibit with the same PC and it sounded like garbage on my system, possibly because of its USB interface, so I'd rather avoid USB in case that is the reason).

4. Does not interface with my PC via the same connectors on the ZxR that are used to connect to the ACM (because I want to use the ACM simultaneously with the new volume knob, for the ACM's mic & headphone functions).

5. Does not have bumpy edges around the knob (i.e. is not like the Emotiva Control Freak).

...but I'd be willing to compromise on condition #1 if there is no good product that can meet all of the conditions.


----------



## legacy404

Hello fellow owners of SB ZXR,
just wondering if its worth it to upgrade op-amps vs adding an external amp?  For example, if you upgraded to burson V6 would you get near hifi sound from the ZXR as opposed to spending $200 on an external amp?  Or are there more cost-effective opamps out there?


----------



## CoryGillmore

legacy404 said:


> Hello fellow owners of SB ZXR,
> just wondering if its worth it to upgrade op-amps vs adding an external amp?  For example, if you upgraded to burson V6 would you get near hifi sound from the ZXR as opposed to spending $200 on an external amp?  Or are there more cost-effective opamps out there?


I just recently went from a stock ZxR to a Burson Audio Play external dac/ampand the difference was dramatic. Surely due to the large difference in power. I say go for a used Play


----------



## PurpleAngel

legacy404 said:


> Hello fellow owners of SB ZXR,
> just wondering if its worth it to upgrade op-amps vs adding an external amp?  For example, if you upgraded to Burson V6 would you get near hifi sound from the ZXR as opposed to spending $200 on an external amp?  Or are there more cost-effective op-amps out there?


By external headphone amplifier, I'm assuming you would connect the external head amp to the line-output (RCA) jacks on the SB-ZxR.
I would say replacing the stock op-amps, would be more of a benefit, then getting a $200 headphone amplifier.


----------



## legacy404

CoryGillmore said:


> I just recently went from a stock ZxR to a Burson Audio Play external dac/ampand the difference was dramatic. Surely due to the large difference in power. I say go for a used Play





PurpleAngel said:


> By external headphone amplifier, I'm assuming you would connect the external head amp to the line-output (RCA) jacks on the SB-ZxR.
> I would say replacing the stock op-amps, would be more of a benefit, then getting a $200 headphone amplifier.



That amp with the V5 opamps is like $300+ , if i can spend less than that on just the opamps alone and reuse my ZXR, I'd rather do that.  Is LME49710HA still worth getting?  Looks like they can be had pretty reasonably.


----------



## Ultrainferno

Today's full review - by popular request - is all about the Sound Blaster X3 DAC/AMP. A reader's choice and a recommended buy!

https://www.headfonia.com/creative-sound-blaster-x3-review/


----------



## Postmodum

So it's been a while i last posted here. I went and took my ZxR from the bottom of the drawer and want to use it on my kid's rig.

What's the best combo for the ZxR where we can keep the "metal plate" ? ( for singles and duals )

Thank you so much


----------

