# Cretative X-Fi Surround 5.1 modded for audiophile -- USB audio



## madwolf

This X-Fi surround was purchase for a friend to be used as a USB to SPDIF 
 solution for the Ibasso D10. But after the mod my friend thinks that this solution is good enough. The creative X-Fi implementation of the USB to audio is one of the best in the industries. Certainly better then the EMU 0404, Xital DG2, PCM2906 (used in the D10), PCM2702E (used in the predator). These are without ASIO and limited to 16bit/48Khz. 

 The USB interface on the X-Fi support USB2.0, ASIO with buffering and 24-Bit/96kHz. 
 The week link in the X_Fi lies in the DAC and the Audio amplifier. 
 The DAC section it uses the Cirrus Logic 4361, Which is still better than the PCM2702 (used in predator) but not as good as the WM8740 (used in D10). Comparing only the USB and DAC combination the X-fi would beat the Predator and the D10. 

 But the Amplifier section is really basic and horrible on the X-fi. So I applied the following modification. 





 A. Change the stock op-amp from TDA1308 to a OPA2365 (Only the LR is changed the rear, surround and bass is untouch)
 B. Added WIMA capacitors in parallel to the bypass cap from the DAC to the Amplifier. 
 C. Ceramic cap for Power Supply. 
 D. Nichicon Fine-Gold to replace the stock output decoupling cap. There are 2 no of Wima Cap on the underside of the PCB. 
 E. Sanyo OS-CON for the Power supply coupling for Audio Section, there is one more for the Digital section, not shown. 

 Because of the simplicity of the amplifier section this mod is only suitable for IEM and not for full size headphone. 
 The complete solution is less than SGD$100 or US$75. 

 As a complete solution for laptop -> USB -> DAC+AMP--> IEM, I would prefer this to a predator. 

 You need to install the drivers to make use of ASIO or to play with the different DSP x-fi feature otherwise it is optional. 
 I tested it will all DSP functionality of the X-fi off, and only in headphone mode.


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## ROBSCIX

Very cool. I am judging by your post that you like the sound quality.
 Modificatiosn is really what puts PC audio hardware in another category as you can improve it yourself!

 Great stuff.


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## vkvedam

Super stuff


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## Sabin0786

That's awesome


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## auD!o

Can I buy it ? LOL I need something for my hd 595 that I ordered :/


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## madwolf

I am sure you will like your HD595, I have it as well. 

 I suggest your get used to the sound of the HD595 first before deciding if you need something. The reason why I got the HD595 is because it goes well with almost anything. Even direct out from your laptop.


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## auD!o

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *madwolf* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am sure you will like your HD595, I have it as well. 

 I suggest your get used to the sound of the HD595 first before deciding if you need something. The reason why I got the HD595 is because it goes well with almost anything. Even direct out from your laptop._

 

Alright, thanks for an honest answer.


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## triptonez

thats cool dude 

 but i dont know how to open this box cashing LOL

 i thought all kinda audio systeme output was managed by driver ?


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## triptonez

do this mod can effecting virtual proses sound like VST fx and VST instrument and audio samples wave loops in multitrack while mixdown ?


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## Zaluss

I had this unit for awhile and I'm very pleased seeing this mod. When I'm brave enough maybe I'll open it up and try it myself.

 Or maybe just pay you to do it for me 

 Quick question: Do you use the creative software or just the native USB sound card drivers. For windows XP in this case.

 I've had popping issues with Vista/7 for the X-FI usb drivers.


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## madwolf

With the creative drivers there is no pop or click even with a USB hub in between with lots of devices connected to the hub. 

 With native windows drivers there are some click and pop. I am using XP have not tried Vista or 7


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## Infoseeker

Anyone know if the RCA on this thing is considered a clean line-out? Or a line-out at all?

 I have one of these and have been wondering forever.


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## shake

Very interesting hack. I've taken apart mine and tried to find things to mod, but I'm not very good at tracing these things. Could you post more pics of the mod if you have time? Also, do the 'D' caps affect the headphone out or the RCA outs? Or both?


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## powerarron

The same issue with madwolf, my speaker kept making popping sound lika mad even with creative drivers!! I've tried uninstalling, restarting, and re-installing the driver, bit none of them works for the popping issue!! my OS is win 7 64bit. Could anyone help? or I will do back to my Xonar...


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## pterodactilo

What mod could I do to use this same card with AKG K601 headphones? In another thread about modding  PCI x-fi cards the OP recommended LM4562 opamp. Can I use this one with the x-fi surround USB too?. Also is it feasible to unsolder the DAC and changing it by another better one one? It seems difficult as the DAC has quite more pins that the opamps.


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## Apocalypsee

Quote: 





shake said:


> Very interesting hack. I've taken apart mine and tried to find things to mod, but I'm not very good at tracing these things. Could you post more pics of the mod if you have time? Also, do the 'D' caps affect the headphone out or the RCA outs? Or both?


 
  It affect both, its a DC blocking caps


  
  Quote: 





pterodactilo said:


> What mod could I do to use this same card with AKG K601 headphones? In another thread about modding  PCI x-fi cards the OP recommended LM4562 opamp. Can I use this one with the x-fi surround USB too?. Also is it feasible to unsolder the DAC and changing it by another better one one? It seems difficult as the DAC has quite more pins that the opamps.


 
  No you cant change DAC as it pinout are different even though the number of pins are the same. I have modded mine and one caution, don't use LM4562. LT1364 is a better opamp


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## mikeaj

I have one of these and am wondering about it as well.  Although I have not tested this myself, I am pretty sure that op amp suggestions for the PCI/PCI-E X-Fi cards are not appropriate here because the USB X-Fi Surround 5.1 is powered by USB.  USB supplies only ground and +5 V, though the actual +5 V in practice may be a little lower.  PCI-E is +12 V and ground I think.  The 5 V difference is at the minimum end of the specified operating range for power supply rails for the LM4562 and similar op amps.  An op amp designed for low single-sided supply voltage should do much better.
   
  The line out I think is a true line out, or else these RMAA results would not be at this level: http://ixbtlabs.com/articles3/multimedia/creative-xfi-surround-51-p2.html.  Consider the price of the device and how the amplifier section is the weak link.
   
  Any thoughts?  Instead of modding it, I'm considering just using the RCA line out to feed a cheap amp.


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## Apocalypsee

I tested the RCA out and the headphone out, honestly I can't tell the difference.
   
  I done my own mod to this. CS4361 datasheet suggest that there is no need for any opamp on output stage because of two reason, one is its voltage out DAC and the 2nd one is its not fully differential output (means it single ended). I managed to bypass the opamp by removing C30 and C20 capacitor (big yellow ones labelled B on the first page) and direct couple it to RCA out by making my own circuit by following the datasheet suggested analog out. Also, remove the C37 and C33 caps near the RCA out or the output signal is too low or you could use that too, but you need to do some calculation on the final caps, depending on the load impedance
   
  But one thing I not so sure is is there any other caps or resistor before the C20 and C30 coupling caps (DC decoupling caps). It do sounds wonderful, much better than with opamp because no matter what opamp you put there it will be inadequate because of low supply voltage


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## McFrede

Could you write the exact values of the components you changed?


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## Apocalypsee

Quote: 





mcfrede said:


> Could you write the exact values of the components you changed?


 

 I'll post it this weekend with some pics to show what I did. Too much things to do on weekdays


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## Apocalypsee

Finally have some time to post it. Here is the pic of my mod:
   



   
  I bypass the opamp entirely and remove it along with SMD that relates to it. Mind you that the headphone out is totally unusable
   
  The new circuit is based on modification from the CS4361 analog out recommendation, what I did is remove the 470 ohm resistor because this reduces the volume way too much if I driving through headphones, and also using 10uF instead of 3.3uF to boost the bass as after removing the 470 ohm resistor, the bass reduces at the same time. The decoupling capacitor near the output is just a random value I used.
   
  I have contacted one of my friends who expert in electronics to help me with this and hopefully it'll improve further
   
  CS4361 datasheet: http://www.cirrus.com/en/pubs/proDatasheet/CS4361_F1.pdf


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## Galuwen

Hi man !!
   
  This modd is soooo cooool. THX for the GREAT INFO.
   
  I am also uusing this module (card?) and I am happy with it.
   
  QUESTION: What drivers do you use to get ASIO compatibility?
   
  I use ASIO4all, NOT the BEST solution but it's doing the trick.
   
  THX again.
   
  Alexander


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## Gele

ThanX.
  I`d be glad if someone could post here how to open the device without breaking it.
  Mine has a more important than the signal quality issue - it sends a spike to the power amplifier (very annoying). It happens everytime when the USB bus is reset - when I power on the PC or when i do a software usb reset (under Linux).
  I plan to fix it by slapping a really large capacitor somewhere (paralel to an output of a LDO regulator) to dampen the fronts of the impulse (if it`s caused by power on/off).
  If the cause is RESET signal on a digital input pin, I`ll need a more sophisticated solution...
   
  Regarding the quality of the DAC conversion - for me it`s important to check if the volume control is implemented by slicing bits from the samples (mul/div by 2/4/8/16/32/etc) or there is analog hardware potentiometers with digital control. Cheap usb devices do not have analog potentiometers. Software volume control reduces the samples resolution especially in 16-bit mode. If we want to prevent it, we need to set the volume to 100% on the software PCM and master controls and mount potentiometers in our homebrew amplifiers. Since the analog potentiometers are noisy things and for 5.1 one would need a lot (6) of them, a digitally controlled analog solution is needed. Something like MCP41010. But note - the digital potentiometers add harmonic distortions (~0.05%) and have capacitance.


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## NeX01

sorry to bump this but i am really interested in modding my USB sound card to have a line level output. Apocalypsee do you have any more pics or info on your mod? where are the points on the board where the audio comes in from the cirrus chip? and whats the state of the output to the surround sockets? are they line level only?
   
  thanks guys


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## NeX01

don't make me bump this every day of the week


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## NeX01

bump


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## Apocalypsee

Quote: 





nex01 said:


> sorry to bump this but i am really interested in modding my USB sound card to have a line level output. Apocalypsee do you have any more pics or info on your mod? where are the points on the board where the audio comes in from the cirrus chip? and whats the state of the output to the surround sockets? are they line level only?
> 
> thanks guys


 
  Sorry that I haven't replied for long time. Ever since the forum changes to new layout its been bugging me to no end. I have no more interest in audio, not that I'm quit but I get much more things in life than just listen to music.
   
  Back to your question, that is all the pics there is, the point where the lineout is C20 and C30 respectively. Remove the yellow caps and tap it to get lineout
   
  Its the same story on surround channel, the opamp acts as preamp before ending it out to rear jack, to get line out simply remove the opamp and retrace the opamp pinout to find the line out. But you need to build a new circuit following the datasheet or the line out have very low sound even when amplified


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## NeX01

hey there,
   
  that is great! thank you so much that is exactly what i wanted to know! i am going to have a go and see if i can build a circuit in the same way the datasheet says (i was thinking 10nf cap for the unlabled cap)
   
  thanks again


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## Sergedc

Hi Guys,
   
  All these mods seems very interting. 
  First a quick word about my setup : Tube amp (Yaquin MC10L - a wonder) - X-Fi USB used as a DAC and Flac music on the laptop. 
  I also have a X-fi  USB. I regretted buying it only after a few days when I realised that the optical out could only output 48khz and 96khz but NOT 44.1khz. Hence I can't get a bit perfect tranfer out of it.
   
  1. Would any of you know why this is? And is so, would there be any mod that could cancel the upsampling of my 44.1khz music to 48khz?
   
  2. I am considering to buy another divice. Ideally I would which to have USB 24/96 input (TE7022L seems great), an ok dac, RCA out and Optical out. I am donsidering the XiangSheng DA-04 (only on sales in China on Taobao). It has an external power but a small one (I guess this is a plus versus the X-FI). Also the DA-04 uses the TE7022L as USB chip and the  [size=100%][size=100%]WM8761[/size][/size] as the dac (which I understand is better than the one of the X-FI). Also it has a line out (RCA out).
  Do you think that this device is a definite upgrade versus the X-FI?
   
*http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=9172681059*
* *
  Also, could you explain how the RCA output of the X-FI is not a line out? Is it because the sound goes trough a preamp in the X-FI? That is what I hate about this X-Fi, it is such a black box.
   
  Thanks a lot,
  Serge


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## NeX01

Quote: 





sergedc said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> All these mods seems very interting.
> First a quick word about my setup : Tube amp (Yaquin MC10L - a wonder) - X-Fi USB used as a DAC and Flac music on the laptop.
> ...


 



 i cant help you with your first problem but as for the RCAs not being line level, yea it goes through an internal pre amp, so it is amplified from line level. the point of line level is that the sound is as pure as it can be and then you pass it through a decent amplifier without adding any distortion. the preamp is the bottle neck for sound quality on this board


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## Sergedc

What should be the voltage of a untouched clean line out? That device I mentionned is 2000mV. Is there any standard in there?
   
  The manual of my Tube amp mentions that the Input intensity is 300mV. Is the mismatch an issue?
   
  Thanks,
  Serge


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## Sergedc

Anyone?


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## NeX01

the voltage will vary with the volume, the difference is its DC, it doesn't have a negative value, and as a rough guess the voltage from a line level speaker could go as high as 2v


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## xciso

Hello.
  I'm working on a carpc and I have this soundcard (X-FI Surround 51. Pro SB1095).
   
  My carpc is from the start a netbook, so I must use usb soundcard.
  I want to use this card directly to my amps, but i dont know how much volt the soundcards puts out from all 6 channels.
  I need minimum 2 volt.
   
  My system are like this:
  Front mid speakers - To L/R Front at soundcard
  Front tweeters - To L/R Rear at soundcard
  Subwoofer - To Sub/Center at soundcard
   
  I would also like to mod my card so it sound better, but i dont know what types of components i should use..
  Please help!


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## grandmike

Hi Guys,
   
  I don't know if this will be relevant here but i'm gonna give it a go :
   
  Since I have upgraded to Windows 8 I have been encountering the following problem.
   

 The X-Fi Crystalizer will not work tough it can be activated via creative console and audio control . It has NO EFFECT on the sound.
 Same problem goes for the X-Fi CMSS 3D.
   
  Any advice will be highly appreciated.
   
  I have downloaded the latest driver that supports windows 8 on the site and checked in windows device manager that it is running that driver.
   
  Thank You.


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## alexdemaet

I just bought a stock Creative X-Fi 5.1 sound card. I don't know if the mod would be needed in my setup as I only use the sound card's ouptical output? 
My system: 
The Creative sound card is connected to the source Synology diskstation via Audioquest mini usb cable. 
An optical cable is connected to the Creative sound card and goes into Stello da220 mk2 DAC.


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