# Evshrug's "If I knew then what I know now" discussion journal.



## Evshrug (Aug 6, 2021)

*If I Knew Then What I Know Now...*
Table of Contents

In the time I've spend surfing around Head-Fi and the 'net, I've run across some interesting opinions, tips, links, "If I knew then what I know now" and insight. I spent so much time on research that I decided I just had to compile and share! Mainly I'll be exploring gaming and headphone setups, but I'll probably jump around a bit 

This is how this thread/journal will work: I'll post a topic or mini-guide that I found interesting, and I'd like any visitors to add extra info, ask questions, and basically "feed" more perspective. I'll update this first post with links to each of my "topic" posts as I write them, so that over time we'll build a sort of index of topics so the curious can jump to what interests them. We may get into a few debates here, but please keep in mind I don't claim to be a leading authority, so my opinions may change.

Also, self-congratulatory 1,000th post. Only took 4 years XD

*Guide and Discussion Topics*
•What is virtual headphone surround?
•Headphone Gaming Guide Pages
•How-To Connect Any Headphone to PS4 For Surround Sound
•Music Bit-Rate Comparison: Where can you no longer appreciate returns?
•How much sound leaks out from different headphones? A Demo
•Forcasting the future "hot feature" of gaming (and a little college advice)
•The Best way to grow the headphone surround market
•"Night and Day" and Finding the "Endgame Setup"
•Why Use Sidetone?
•Smyth Realiser A16 unboxing and first impressions with Call of Duty Modern Warfare (2019) gameplay
•Is Bluetooth as Good as Wired?

*Reviews*
•Creative's Recon3D USB External Surround Processor Review
•E12 Mont Blanc Portable Amp review
•AKG K712 Pro - Live First Impressions
•Oppo PM-2: The Libra Headphone!
•Creative Labs' Sound Blaster X7
•Creative Labs' Sound BlasterX G5
•Creative Labs' Sound Blaster E1
•Creative Labs' Sound Blaster E5
•ZMF Headphones' Vibro MkII
•Burson V5i OpAmps, as reviewed in the SoundBlaster X7
•Massdrop by Sennheiser PC37X Limited Edition
•Comparison: HD 6XX, HD 560S, and HD 58X Jubilee
•Comparison: PROTOTYPE HD 8xx from an HD 800 Owner’s Perspective

------

*Future Topics*
•Turtle Beach DSS2 Review
•How to "Design" a music system
•Amp output impedance - expecting a debate on this one, please keep cool!
•Tube amping: is it "for you?" and complation of tips for better quality.

*Note:* the links will take you to my "topic post" that should start discussion, but sometimes people add info a page or two after I start the topic. Rest assured, if I get enough new info that merits a summary, I'll make a "Part 2" post of the topic with a link in this "table of contents" type post.

Why am I posting this in the videogames thread? Well, a lot of the topics do have to do with gaming, but in general I just enjoy gaming and I feel comfortable here. Thank you for reading, I hope something has helped you!




Spoiler: Edit History (no longer updated)



Edit Feb 3, 2013: Added a list of virtual surround processing techniques to the Headphone Surround post.
Edit Feb 9, 2013: Added sound speculation.
Edit Feb 12, 2013: Added Mont Blanc review.
Edit Nov 20, 2013: Added DTS Headphone X sample and review, plus an update to the Headphone Surround guide with info about the new consoles, and a few links. Also found a TrueAudio demo.
Edit January 8th 2015: realized I forgot to log all 2014 edits, there is a new review and a few edits sprinkled about in the surround article, nice discussion following the X7 review.
Edit Nov 10th 2015: Added links to summer reviews, new article about general amping suggestions, speculation about the G5.
Edit March 2016: Link to Vibro MkII review
Edit January 2017: Added links to Burson OpAmp and PC37X headset reviews
Edit August 2018: Forgot to mention earlier updates, this one adds a thought on Sidetone.
Edit Sept 2019: Smyth Realiser unboxing & gameplay
Edit October 2019: Bluetooth article


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## Evshrug (Feb 27, 2020)

*What is Virtual Headphone Surround?*

There are already some great guides about how to use this, check out Mad Lust Envy's headphone reviews for console gaming with a Mixamp and NamelessPFG's Computer Gaming guide for info on PC gaming with sound cards. But what is this tech anyway, and are all types the same?

In short: No.

*Home Theater*
Let's start with the kind everyone is most familiar with, a 5.1 home theater surround setup. This is most like the experience you get at a movie theater, with speakers in a ring around you and a subwoofer (sometimes more than one) somewhere too (sub bass tends to not be "directional," so that's why one is standard). For the purposes of this guide, 5.1, 7.1, and theater setups are functionally the same idea: set up a bunch of speakers around you, so that a driver can literally fire a sound from a particular direction. Pros of this method are that the effect is quite believable and naturally works well for anyone not deaf (my apologies to those deaf or partially deaf  ), it's therefore immersive and instinctive. The cons, as are already familiar to Head-Fi'ers, speakers get very expensive especially compared to the bang-for-buck of headphones, setup and placement is fussy and odd-shaped rooms can mess things up, you've got wires everywhere, and then there's the thing most people don't even realize: _there's no accurate height cues._ I'll get into that more later.

*Headphones with multiple drivers*
These headphones basically take the 5.1 surround concept and stuff it into headphones. Usually, there are a pair of drivers each for rear, front, and sometimes sides (7.1). The "Center" channel from a home-theater setup is usually played in equal strength in both of the "Front" drivers. Seems logical that this would work well, right? Well, the surround effect usually is ok (still 2D), but having so many drivers in the same earcup produces problems. I think the problems are mainly down to resonance, interference, and just the fact that none of these drivers are particularly designed to sound great because your purchase price is split between the cost of them all. Overall, this type of headphone surround is IMO a novelty, and I'd recommend passing.

*Virtual Surround Processing*
This DOES work, very well. Considering most humans are only equipped with two ears, two headphone drivers just off the surface of those two ears _should_, with the proper tuning, be able to sound like it's coming from any direction. But don't just take my word for it, here's an excerpt from Tom's Hardware doing a round-up of headphones expressly made for gaming surround:


> I’ve never expected much from virtual surround solutions that rely on a single speaker in each can to create positional audio. During game testing, though, I actually did hear things behind me, and instinctively turned to face them based on the perceived source. That was a big surprise that, for me, helped validate the legitimacy of virtual surround sound. In fact, I have to say that it didn’t really make a difference whether the headset included four drivers in each ear or just one. In both cases, I was able to discern where sounds were coming from more effectively.



Source: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/surround-sound-headset-benchmark,3125.html

There are a number of different processing algorithms that can simulate the effect a certain direction has on a noise. A sound is affected by direction in a similar way as as sound is affected by being behind a door:



There are several different processing methods, but I'd split them into two groups: one common in home theater receivers that mixes 5.1 or 7.1 channel audio into headphone surround, the other only found in PCs that has *no* channels and can simulate direction from *any* angle.

*5.1/7.1 "Home Theater" Virtual Surround*
•Dolby Headphone (used in Astro Mixamp, the original Turtle Beach DSS, Marantz receivers, and all Asus' gaming soundcards), the most common
•DTS Headphone X (an emerging method, this processing offers up to 11 directions... 7.1 plus 4 height channels above, as of Nov20th one Turtle Beach wireless headphone has been released with support built-in)
•AMBEO (Sennheiser’s height-aware Processing, also Binaural Headphone recording)
•Cirrus Logic headphone surround (Used in the Turtle Beach DSS2, I might have the name wrong for now)
•Razer Surround (software based, runs in the background on your PC)
•Proprietary Headphone Virtual Surround DSPs (including Yamaha's branded "Silent Cinema" and others from Sony, Pioneer, Denon, etc)

*Headphone 3D surround*
•TrueAudio (Used in select AMD graphics cards and the PS4)
•Direct3Dsurround (Microsoft's brief-lived surround algorithm for Windows XP)
•OpenAL (formerly open-source before taken over by Creative, this forms the core of the 3D surround in Creative's sound cards, OpenAL is an available option in select PC titles)
•SBX Pro Studio (Used in Creative's Z series soundcards) 720p Sample
•THX TruStudio Pro (Used in Creative's Recon3D series soundcards, recently added to the Titanium HD)
•THX Spacial Surround (Sample)
•CMSS-3D (Used in Creative's X-Fi series soundcards)
•Rapture3D
•MyEars (Downloaded from the MyEars website, Reviewed)

*Note: these algorithms CAN process full 3D surround IF IT'S AVAILABLE IN THE GAME, else you hear 2D surround or stereo.


*3D vs 2D surround*
Gaming consoles like PS3 and Xbox 360 only use 5.1 or 7.1 surround sound (because the mfrs expect that people would only use them with speakers, in a home-theater setup). My receiver from Yamaha has Silent Cinema processing built-in, most other brands have their own surround processing. Though the feature is usually buried away in the manual, usually you just have to plug in your headphone and activate any DSP to get it working. Dolby Headphone processing is used in a few receivers as well (Marantz, some discontinued Harman Kardon), and even some stand-alone processing units made for gaming like the Astro Mixamp and Turtle Beach's original DSS. Here is an example video with Dolby Headphone already processed and baked-in — use headphones and try it out!



mad lust envy said:


> NOTE: At 1:08, this is pretty much how Dolby headphone sounds on the Mixamp. The 5.1 DH: On section at 0:54 sounds like a weaker version, which honestly doesn't sound like the Mixamp's DH, but it still showcases positional cues. Now, if you didn't believe in DH before, you probably will now. Remember: At 1:08-2:00 is pretty much how the Mixamp sounds.




Dolby Headphone was designed for movies, though some PC soundcards like those from Asus feature it too. If you really want to get the most accurate directionality though, PC-designed 3D audio processing like CMSS-3D, THX TruStudio Pro, SBX Pro Studio, and Rapture3D all can dynamically apply direction cues to any sound, no matter which direction it comes from. Here is a sample of CMSS-3D (originally shown to me by Fegefeuer):




Not only does it work (I enjoy it all the time), but "virtual" headphone surround has the potential to be MORE accurate than any of the "home theater" methods, because there are no directional "channels" to funnel directional cues into. So, virtual surround cues can smoothly emulate sound coming from any angle, including from above and below! Sure, sometimes a movie might have 7.1 audio set up so that two speakers can be slightly higher than your main fronts, but almost no console game takes advantage of this. Mere 5.1 is _usually_ adequate, but in terms of gaming and especially with console FPS like CoD, sometimes you'll think you're hearing someone behind a wall, but he's actually downstairs. Horror games also tend to have things skittering around all over the place, and flight-sims need no explanation.

So, I tend to think of the typical 5.1 surround setup as "2D surround," because the sound merely wraps around you in a circle, rather than a sphere. 90% of the time, 2D will still be impressive, but just... not... quite... realistic. Sadly, since consoles (so far) do not have the hardware and software to support 3D surround, and since the majority of gamers use consoles (and smartphones) these days, many games forget about 3D audio during the design phase and concentrate on a "home theater" (read: 5.1 channel audio) experience. *[UPDATE! Next gen consoles PS4 and Xbox One have dedicated audio processing hardware, read on!]* However, 3D surround *IS* still being used in some games on the PC platform... The most notable recent example I've heard about is OpenAL support in Borderlands 2. Watch out for Rakk!

*Next-gen consoles update!*
The new PS4 and Xbox One consoles have dedicated audio processing hardware, which brings the industry several new benefits! Across the board, this sets a new bar that new games can dedicate more resources to audio quality and processing (and with Blu-Ray being standard, audio won't need as much compression either).

The Xbox One is calling their hardware something like "Sphere" which I will expand upon as I learn more, so games will have dedicated hardware resources for audio, but the downsides of that console is it doesn't support Dolby surround through optical-out AND has a new proprietary connection for chat headsets, meaning previous-gen setups are unsupported. Since the One does support DTS-HD though, it's possible/likely that we will see new adapters with DTS Headphone X in the future. The "above" height channels are an improvement over previous 5.1/7.1 channel arrays, more 3D, but I still classify this as "Theater" surround as there is no "below" channels and, critically, this is still a system based on shunting sound through channels rather than mathematically angling the sound from any 3D direction.

I'm going to come out and say it... The PS4's audio capabilities have me really excited. Not only can the PS4 still bitstream Dolby out through optical so existing devices can still be used, but AMD's TrueAudio performs fully 3D audio positional calculations before being split into channels, and it can easily be incorporated by developers into new games because they can use existing plug-in tools like FMOD and Wwise seen in many games today... but obviously, *I'd* like to see it processed straight to a stereo headphone mix. The other big win is AMD got it into the PS4, not just their PC graphics cards (but those too), so developers know there will be a large base of users equipped with TrueAudio. They can really make their games stand out by leveraging TrueAudio, and I'm all for that!




*Most important: does it work for your ears?*

One last thing I've noticed: some people get the surround effect no matter what kind of processing is used, but others disagree on what sounds most believable, and still others can't intuitively feel the effect at all and prefer to stick with stereo. For me, THX TruStudio Pro works the most intuitively, with Dolby Headphone in second, Silent Cinema makes a round surround circle but relies on reverb which annoys me and doesn't pan well from behind-to-front, and CMSS-3D (from YouTube vids at least) only presents 3D imaging some of the time (though EAX and occlusion effects work very well). NamelessPFG, on the other hand, only has a full experience with CMSS-3D (on his very nice Stax headphones). And then Mad Lust Envy is a total champion of Dolby Headphone, and no other processing algorithm does rear cues well for him! Which of us is right? I don't think any of us, or more correctly, we're *all* right about which sounds best to our different ears.

So, dear reader, you owe it to yourself to take some time, listen to the samples posted above, and figure out where YOU'LL get the most mileage  Please reply what you think. Also, I would GREATLY appreciate someone posting a how-to or link about how I could record a video, using my Recon3D USB sound card, with the TruStudio Pro processing baked in, so I can provide a good example of that. The one video on YouTube in Battlefield 3 was set up wrong... Both methods of surround processing used were fed only stereo audio to guess at a surround mix, and BF3 (sadly) has good quality sound recordings but poor positional cues.

*Update:* I purchased a Creative Sound Blaster Z to check out SBX ProStudio for myself, but I still don't know how to capture a sample for you guys :/ It's a factor of time restraints and how I choose to spend my limited time off work. I'll still review it though.


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## NamelessPFG

I kind of like where you're going with this thread, sort of an open blog that invites discussion.
   
  I'm pretty sure everyone here knows my stance on the topic of virtual surround, especially you, but I'll re-iterate myself anyway: done right, it's like having an aural wallhack.
   
  I just wish proper 3D implementations instead of virtualized 5.1/7.1 were in more widespread use. It was so common during the late 1990s when Aureal burst onto the scene from the ashes of Media Vision and made 3D sound a must for any gaming computer. You couldn't have a Half-Life discussion without people talking about how much better it sounded with A3D back then.
   
  Now people tend to scoff at the thought of sound cards taking up space in gaming computers (us Head-Fi folk being the exception, obviously), and people seem to think that a virtual 5.1/7.1 speaker setup is "good enough", which it admittedly is most of the time, but why have "good" when you're perfectly capable of having better?


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## Evshrug

As I've told you before, there may be more potential in the near future with the overripe status of the current console generation. More people are coming back to PC gaming as it is simultaneously cheaper AND looks better. Major strides in convenience have come as well. I think that all it would take for 3D surround to take off (again) would be just someone hearing it. Conceptually, it sounds very appealing. And the more people like you and I buzz about it, and other people see the buzz, the more it will become in demand. Look at what Mad's done with his thread: people are reading it and almost instantly craving his new favorites, and people are going to great lengths just to get an immersive experience.

The Recon3D review will be an update on this issue, I want to write about that when I figure out how to record my own sample, put it side-by-side with CMSS-3D, Dolby Headphone (2), and Silent Cinema too if I can manage that. I really and truly feel different surround processing sounds works best for different people, and I'd like to make it easy for someone to test it. I have the links from you for CMSS-3D and from Mad for Dolby Headphone. I think the popular YouTube video comparing Dolby Headphone and CMSS-3D in Crysis 2 wasn't set up optimally: the description states that something was set for headphone mode, so the surround processors were trying to make surround from a stereo mix (at least for CMSS-3D). There aren't really any videos for THX TruStudio Pro, and Creative's own demo (though nice) for their new processing algorithm is an actual binaural recording instead of an actual test of in-game generated sound.

Dunno why Creative doesn't improve their marketing to attract new customers; those cell-phone speakers are going to financially back them into a small corner with too many existing competitors.


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## mgdunaway

I too like what you are doing with this thread.  
   
   
About 4 months ago I decided that I need to upgrade my 3 year old Turtle Beach PX21’s.  I was switching from PS3 over to XBOX because I finally was so fed up with the PlayStation Network. I started out by swapping the PS3 controller sticks in an Xbox controller (works flawlessly BTW and very easy to do if you have a spare PS3 controller). 
   
   
Anyway, I first started looking on Best Buy’s website and in store for deals on their “surround sound” headsets. I thought I wanted to go completely wireless, so I bought the Turtle Beach Tango’s.  At $249 it’s a very pricey headset but I felt I wasn’t getting the sound I thought I should.  Thus started my endeavor of scouring the ‘net for information on head’sets’. 
   
Low and behold I stumbled across Mad’s headphone guide. After days upon days of devouring that information I decided I was going to return my Tango’s and order the Astro Mixamp. This really appealed to me because it offered the best surround sound experience for consoles (all I play is COD), and I can plug in any headphone to the mixamp.  
   
When I received the mixamp, I was utterly disappointed because I had the same problems as many people… the sounds just shutting off. I took to the ‘net again and found it was a power cord issue. Swapping out the power cord with a PS3 controller charger cord fixed the problem and I haven’t had any issues since. 
   
My first headset I tried with the mixamp was the Razer Carcharias, simply because they were a semi-open headphone with an attached mic.  I chat with friends online every time I play so a mic was huge for me.  I really liked the soundstage the open headphones had but still felt like I could do better for the money, plus, my buddies were complaining about how I sounded on the mic. 
   
Fast forward to now, I took back the Carcharias and ordered some Samson SR850 Headphones off amazon after reading several positive reviews (plus they were only $50), and also ordered the Labtec LVA 7330 boom mic off Ebay, which is perfect!  I could not be happier with my current set up. The audio from the Mixamp to the Samson’s is truly amazing for a $50 headphone and my Mic is crystal clear I’m told. So for $189 ($130 Mixamp, $50 SR850, $9 Mic) I have one of the best set ups out there and am loving it.


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## Evshrug

Excellent mgdunway!
So besides the poor quality USB cable (must be a batch with electrical shorts, but at least it was an easy to remedy flaw!), you have been happy with your Mixamp? I first used Yamaha's proprietary headphone surround processing... It "worked," but I didn't find it compelling over regular stereo, despite using Audio Technica AD700. Maybe it was because of the AD700 that stereo was fine 

I was still on head-fi though, which is a powerful source of upgradeitis temptation, and also I messed up the onboard sound on my Mac to silence, so I started looking at Mac-compatible sound cards. There aren't many, let me tell you  One choice, though was the Recon3D, which seemed perfect because it was cheap (this was before Astro ran out of Mixamp stock for the last 4 months of last year), it would work with Mac AND my Xbox AND the fledgling Windows side of my PC, and as a bonus offered a different surround processing algorithm than I'd seen anyone else review yet. If the bonus didn't work, I would've been pretty happy just sticking to Stereo. But, the surround DID work, and provided better depth and difference from Stereo than anything I'd heard yet... I remembered watching the Halo: Reach intro where the helicopters wooshed from behind to front, and thinking "FINALLY! Now I'm hearing it!"

That's why I want to make a sample video with the sound processing baked-in. Few people know about headphone surround, fewer still are willing to risk trying anything but the most popular option, and I've read peoples' posts about trying one sample and giving up on further research. Once I figure out a process to record video with the sound-effect baked-in, I'll probably end up making comparative samples with THX TruStudio Pro, CMSS-3D, and Dolby Headphone, even if I have to take advantage of Amazon's return policy to do it. Although, if Nameless & I get copies of the same game, we could probably work out a good test and I could just have him record the CMSS-3D sample for me


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## Evshrug

*Bit-rate Comparison, & Headphone Testing Tools*

Many people, including myself, often point out that higher quality and better bit-rate music files are one of the most dramatic and obvious upgrades you can have for sound quality and immersion in your music. In fact, I say getting good quality files should be prioritized before spending a mint on nice headphones, source, or amps.

When I say that though, I assume some or most of your music collection is in 128 kbps MP3, perhaps converted from CD's, or perhaps... a torrent of rain and water just left them on your door front. But customers often see advertisements that "this compression is indistinguishable from CD policy!" or opposite efforts of golden ears audiophiles that swear by files larger than those on a Redbook CD or music from vinyl LP albums.

Settle those claims for yourself. I believe everyone has (and some songs have) a different point where diminishing returns reaches the point where improvements are beyond their hearing.

Here's a short, well set up blind test of two different compression bit-rates, I recommend you do it in a quiet environment:
http://mp3ornot.com/

How did that test go? Write in the comments if the results surprised you!

I also thought it would be good to share some audio tests that ought to help you evaluate the quality of the headphones you use:
http://www.audiocheck.net/soundtests_headphones.php

There are some other audio-related tests on that site you may like to revisit sometime. It's a cool little audio tool chest. One thing I ought to mention alongside these audio test: if you have a cold, that will temporarily affect your hearing for the worse. At the time of this writing (and partly why I have the time), I have a cold (almost better though!).

Lastly, though we all are interested in a little testing and (I guess) personal training, be careful not to lose sight of what the point of all this is: having fun with music! You can enjoy yourself even with low-quality stuff from non-legendary musicians. For fun, I'll finish this measurebating post with an episode of Devil May Cry, "Rock Queen." Warning: contains demon slaying action with lots of ketchupy blood. A little south from family friendly. Strawberry Sundaes!:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQ43komj5CY&list=ELGzrGI6nZgJM


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## chicolom

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> I also thought it would be good to share some audio tests that ought to help you evaluate the quality of the headphones you use:
> http://www.audiocheck.net/soundtests_headphones.php


 
   
   
  That sight has some nice stuff on it.
   
_*bookmarked_


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## Evshrug

Indeed it does, but bookmarking it and other useful stuff was kinda the point of this thread anyway. When my turn with the ODAC arrives, I'm going to use your technique to "find" the "line-out" volume level of all my stuff, and post about it here too. I have a feeling there might be more to it in some cases... but your idea was a good starting point for most cases anyway.

I mean to make this thread a resource, but not a "sound science" exclusive thread, nor as technical. There will be equipment & some form of gaming reviews, too. I'll probably reveal my ignorance sometimes, but by then I hope more people will be subscribed so I can ask questions & people will chime in answers. And one thing I learned while writing for Macworld: people love to correct an author's mistakes, LOL.


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## SoAmusing777

I'm gonna come back and read here in a bit, but according to the tests, I hear well below 20hz. It sounds awesome. I cannot, however, hear above 19khz. I don't know if it's due to my soundcard though. The files and headphones are not the weak link. Soundblaster Live 24-bit is the card.


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## Evshrug

Yeah well... The only step up from your $500 headphones (which you got on sale) would be summit-fi headphones, so...
What do you use for amping again? At least, with your computer? Straight out of that soundcard-I-am-not-familiar-with?

Those are pretty stellar responses and hearing range though, I don't think I can hear 20 Hz or above somewhere around 17 kHz. Then again, I'm sick right now, and we'll see what we see when I combine my E12 with an ODAC


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## SoAmusing777

Quote:


evshrug said:


> Yeah well... The only step up from your $500 headphones (which you got on sale) would be summit-fi headphones, so...
> What do you use for amping again? At least, with your computer? Straight out of that soundcard-I-am-not-familiar-with?
> 
> Those are pretty stellar responses and hearing range though, I don't think I can hear 20 Hz or above somewhere around 17 kHz. Then again, I'm sick right now, and we'll see what we see when I combine my E12 with an ODAC


 
   
  Step up? These are perfection. Ha, I am a thrifty shopper! I've never heard of those headphones though. Yup, I plug the headphones directly into the Creative Soundblaster Live! 24-bit. I did the hearing test with my brother (age 14) and I (20). We hear exactly around when the guy says 19k. It's either a split second before or after he says it, so I don't think it's my hearing. I do have ringing in my ears though, which started round-about a year ago, which I need to get checked. I should also have my ears cleaned out. There are a lot of things that contribute to hearing, so, I'm not gonna say I've lost anything just yet. Well, I hear well before the guy says 20hz. It sounds awesome on these phones. Yeah, I'd like to know how you "perform" then, lol.


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## chicolom

Quote: 





soamusing777 said:


> These are perfection. Ha, I am a thrifty shopper!
> 
> Well, I hear well before the guy says 20hz. It sounds awesome on these phones.


 
   
  There's nothing thrifty about $400+ headphones.  :\
   
  So, listening to 19khz tones '"sounds awesome"??  Do dog whistles also sound awesome?


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## NamelessPFG

I'm 22, and I can only hear just under 15 KHz on a flat EQ. That's a bit distressing, since I usually don't like loud noises and steer clear of most noisy environments.
   
  My ears are also a bit unbalanced at certain points across the frequency spectrum. Kept thinking it was an issue with my headphones 'til I noticed the exact same imbalances across ALL of my headphones...
   
  Ultimately, no matter how good my headphones of choice get, the ultimate bottleneck in the audio chain happens to be my own two ears.


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## Evshrug

SoAmusing77,
You might want to consider your next audio "purchase" to be a trip to an audiologist. I'm not sure how much that would cost, but assume like +$100. You only get one set of ears, and if they're pretty good now you ought to do your best to keep them that way!
Some say that ringing in your ears is a sign of a frequency dying out. I have no proof of that though.

Chicolom, Nameless,
I'm not exactly sure where my highs cut off tbh... 17kHz may be over exaggerating. I didn't purposefully abuse my hearing or hang out in noisy environments, but I noticed my first sign of hearing loss right around the time I started perusing Head-Fi. I had flown down to Florida for a big family reunion, and one of my cousins had this sound on her phone called "the most annoying sound in the world." I couldn't hear it at all... I demanded she play it again, I asked the three younger-than-I relatives present if they were fooling me or was something actually playing, played it again with the phone right next to my ear while I concentrated as hard as I could... Nada.

I reacted pretty strongly because that was the summer I'd thought I wouldn't be able to go back and finish college, but in retrospect the girls that could hear it WERE really annoyed by the sound. Maybe my loss is really somewhat of a gain? I sure do remember the annoying whine of a mosquito, and honestly I don't miss it  I was like 19 then, and I'm 26 now.


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## chicolom

Your missing out.  All the best music happens above 15khz.


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## SoAmusing777

Quote: 





chicolom said:


> There's nothing thrifty about $400+ headphones.  :\
> 
> So, listening to 19khz tones '"sounds awesome"??  Do dog whistles also sound awesome?


 
  There is when I saved $100 (on my car insurance by switching to Geico [sorry, had to]) on them, instead of paying $500, I paid $409 (with shipping). No, it's a ton for a pair of headphones, but you know, they are pretty much perfection to me. I love everything about them. They are well worth the money, even with my crappy soundcard.

 Mr., you're misquoting (no pun intended) me! Idk if I can hear dog whistles. I meant the 10hz below 20hz sounds awesome. 19KHZ isn't pleasurable.
  Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> I'm 22, and I can only hear just under 15 KHz on a flat EQ. That's a bit distressing, since I usually don't like loud noises and steer clear of most noisy environments.
> 
> My ears are also a bit unbalanced at certain points across the frequency spectrum. Kept thinking it was an issue with my headphones 'til I noticed the exact same imbalances across ALL of my headphones...
> 
> Ultimately, no matter how good my headphones of choice get, the ultimate bottleneck in the audio chain happens to be my own two ears.


 
  Oh wow. I always envisioned you being older. So intelligent for such a young age. Anyway, dang dude! Odd.

 How sad.
  Quote: 





evshrug said:


> SoAmusing77,
> You might want to consider your next audio "purchase" to be a trip to an audiologist. I'm not sure how much that would cost, but assume like +$100. You only get one set of ears, and if they're pretty good now you ought to do your best to keep them that way!
> Some say that ringing in your ears is a sign of a frequency dying out. I have no proof of that though.


 
  Yup, I'm gonna go very soon. Insurance will cover it. Yeah, I'd really like to keep my hearing, as my love for music is unrivaled!
 Yeah, that could be true. Ringing in the ears is never good.


----------



## Evshrug

chicolom said:


> You*'re* missing out.  All the best music happens above 15khz.  :basshead:



You*'re* kidding, right? How high do you*r* ears hear? Are those the sounds you*r* avatar is yelling about?


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> You*'re* kidding, right? How high do you*r* ears hear? Are those the sounds you*r* avatar is yelling about?


 
   
  How dare you correct my grammar! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Who do you think you'*re*?
   
  My avatar is a shot of me listening to the complete and total sonic bliss of music that only takes place above 15khz - which you'll never hear!


----------



## Evshrug

chicolom said:


> How dare you correct my grammar! :tongue_smile:   Who do you think you'*re*?
> 
> My avatar is a shot of me listening to the complete and total sonic bliss of music that only takes place above 15khz - which you'll never hear!  :evil:



@_@

@.@'`

ToT sorry!!!
... but aren't you*r* headphones the black ones?


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> ... but aren't you*r* headphones the black ones?


 
   
   
  ...


----------



## Evshrug (Aug 5, 2018)

<3
By the way, I changed my avatar a while back because you said it needed more explosions, but I never heard if it lived up to your expectations? I recommend looking at it big, the reflections on the wet asphalt are preeeetty.

Edit: avatar pic I was referring to, for posterity:


Photo I took at Disney World. Funny, the “Instant Replay” didn’t show the car actually engulfed in the flames, but ahead before the fireworks went off!


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> <3
> By the way, I changed my avatar a while back because you said it needed more explosions, but I never heard if it lived up to your expectations? I recommend looking at it big, the reflections on the wet asphalt are preeeetty.


 
   
  Yes, the explosions are nice, but they are too tiny.  Perhaps some cropping?


----------



## Fulch36

Okay, at Evshrug's request here is my comparison between MyEars 3D Audio and Dolby Headphone (DH):
   



Spoiler: MyEars%20vs%20Dolby%20Headphone



 
  I'd read conflicted comments on which was superior or if there was any real difference at all between the two, I tried MyEars out with the PC360 because my X1's had not shown up by the time I wanted to test it out - therefore I had a set of cans that are known for having a great soundstage and positional audio and have used Dolby Headphone from my Mixamp with them for several years.
   
  MyEars has a fairly lengthy set-up process that must be completed with each set of cans that you want to use with the software (it took me around 30 minutes though I rushed the latter half of it) and is only compatible with PC audio, whilst the creators did say they were going to get console audio working it seems that all development has ceased. Judging by their Facebook and Twitter feeds it looks like it never really took off so there was little reason for them to continue working on it.
   
  So, how did it sound once the set-up was complete? Superb, well in terms of positional audio at the very least. I allowed myself to get accustomed to MyEars for a while before I A/B'd between it and DH, I found that whilst DH is very clear on sounds that are coming from in front of you it isn't so great with rearward sounds (again, this could well just be with the PC360). MyEars was great at simulating a true 7.1 enviroment in terms of speaker placement but it fell flat on it's face when compared to the soundstage of DH.
   
  I don't know about other people but the moment I press that DH button on the Mixamp the soundstage grows immensely which I like very much and find that it's more pleasing to my ears during games compared to the more intimate presentation that stereo sound delivers. MyEars sounds like you are wearing some ridiculous contraption that has somehow allowed you to position seven speakers around your head, DH sounds like these speakers are spread out around the room as they would be in a real surround sound set-up.
   
  Initially I thought I would end up using MyEars for competitive play (which I don't do very often) and DH for everything else, that was until I noticed the distortion. MyEars seems to distort certain frequencies in the upper-mid to treble region for me (this isn't something I have seen others complain about) - this is most noticeable when characters are speaking, whilst I could have coped with a smaller soundstage this was the final nail in the coffin for MyEars. I am by no means disappointed by DH but I now know that it can be bettered for at least positional audio.


----------



## Evshrug

fulch36 said:


> I'll repost the comparison on your thread in just a bit, had a read through your first post and couldn't agree more with your comments regarding what works for each individual - it was that fact that drove me to really want to try MyEars, if everyone could come up with their own profile that works then it would be possible to have a baseline to work with in order to compare the other technologies with (ie if a custom MyEars profile is the best that surround sound can get for me then how does CMSS-3D compare for me, how does DH compare etc).
> 
> This would of meant that we got of put together some kinda MyEars profile repository for newcomers to try, they try each profile to find out which works best for them and then see what general surround sound tech worked best for the person who made that profile (so if MLE made one and a newcomer found that his profile worked best for them then they know that DH is the way to go). That way, someone who is new to the tech could pretty much gurantee it will work for them to at least some degree.
> 
> ...




Creative's X-Fi Titanium HD offers both CMSS-3D and THX, but THX is only in "entertainment mode" instead of incorporated into Game Mode as it is in the Recon3D models. SBX is incorporated into the main audio suite of the new Z-series models too, in fact the software is arranged almost exactly like the Recon3D models (though the Z-series cards are of higher-spec). I haven't heard the Ti HD implementation for myself to be sure, but I suspect that it's different, and people speculate that THAT Crysis 2 video is set up wrong anyway. Mad thinks DH sounds unusually echo-y in that vid. I don't know for sure, which is why I didn't include the video in my guide, would be AWESOME if Nameless would post a sample with his Ti HD setup.

Just to say, I found Silent Cinema to have a good 360 degree soundstage, but the way it works isn't particularly subtle and typically has a fair bit of reverb. It actually does a good job of creating an even, wide soundstage, but THX on my Recon3D USB just sounds more refined and natural. Samples WILL happen someday, just... Sometimes I procrastinate  Like right now, I want to type my next article, write a review for the E12 portable amp, make a YouTube video presentation of the AKG Q701, figure out how to record 3D surround samples, help an amp manufacturer with a project, apply at a Temp agency... But mostly I'm waiting to hear back from friends if I'll be included in a Superbowl party (US football/wussie-rugby championship).

When I/we do make good samples of surround tech, I'll make a fresh "article" in this thread so people can reference it easily. That's the whole point of this thread... Making useful discoveries (and discussions) easy to access & use as reference.


----------



## Fulch36

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Creative's X-Fi Titanium HD offers both CMSS-3D and THX, but THX is only in "entertainment mode" instead of incorporated into Game Mode as it is in the Recon3D models. SBX is incorporated into the main audio suite of the new Z-series models too, in fact the software is arranged almost exactly like the Recon3D models (though the Z-series cards are of higher-spec). I haven't heard the Ti HD implementation for myself to be sure, but I suspect that it's different, and people speculate that THAT Crysis 2 video is set up wrong anyway. Mad thinks DH sounds unusually echo-y in that vid. I don't know for sure, which is why I didn't include the video in my guide, would be AWESOME if Nameless would post a sample with his Ti HD setup.
> 
> Just to say, I found Silent Cinema to have a good 360 degree soundstage, but the way it works isn't particularly subtle and typically has a fair bit of reverb. It actually does a good job of creating an even, wide soundstage, but THX on my Recon3D USB just sounds more refined and natural. Samples WILL happen someday, just... Sometimes I procrastinate
> 
> ...


 

 Interesting, in all honesty I'm pretty much sold on the Titanium HD - as I said elsewhere I wanted a decent dac to go with the amp at some stage, the THD seems to be one of the few Creative cards I can find that features RCA outputs (would rather use my existing interconnects that rely on a 3.5mm to RCA cable) and the DAC is well regarded. It's also a fair bit cheaper than a dedicated external DAC and saves on desk space.
   
  Judging from Creative's site it does seem that SBX and THX are at the very least similar if not the exact same, I doubt SBX would offer any real improvement. As for Silent Cinema: I don't like the idea of a reverb filled sound but in all honesty it wouldn't be practical for me to get another reciever even if I find that I prefer it over the other solutions anyway.
   
  American Football is actually increasing in popularity quite a bit over here, I have a few friends who play for the University team that invited me to come round for the Superbowl earlier but I've got too much programming to do...


----------



## Evshrug

SBX and THX surround do seem *very* similar, don't they. I'm torn between the Ti HD and new SBX models myself, as I think it would be awesome to hear CMSS-3D in full glory (plus that soundcard has the widest game compatibility and broadest software feature set of any soundcard), but the new Z series have upgraded hardware and I really do like the THX surround. In the end, though, I can't afford new stuff just now.


----------



## benbenkr

SBX and THX is virtually... the same thing.
   
  Creative basically had enough of paying THX for their branding and decided to just rebadge their control panel as so to avoid un-needed charges.
  The other reason is also because more and more on-board audio solutions are starting to incorporate THX's control panel (and it looks cheap too), this does not do Creative any marketting favors at all.


----------



## whiskaz

I've been on a similar mission here of late. Years ago I owned a set of wireless Pioneer DIR-800cs with the Dolby Headphone processor. I loved them. I couldn't enjoy true 5.1 sound all of the time because I was in an apartment and these really hit the spot/filled the gap. I wore them out. They fell apart, as did the base unit (one too many drops maybe and I traveled with it too).

 I'll leave my reasons for this mission out but the bottom line is this: Sometimes I want to watch movies with headphones and I don't want to feel like I'm missing out on too much by not using my actual 5.1 setup.

 The mission has led me to audition 3 headphones thus far: HD-558s, DT990 Pros and the HE-400s. I won't go into details as that's been done but I've come away preferring the HE-400's sound even though they are exponentially heavier than the DT990s and not nearly as comfortable (and twice the price).

 As for headphone surround I have tried 2 "hardware" solutions and numerous software solutions (my primary device for movies is a home theater pc but I also have a 360 for netflix/games). Hardware-wise I have tried Silent Cinema and a Xonar DG w/ Dolby Headphone (which may well be considered software). Software wise... DH in foobar, the old Isone Surround plugin, J River's built-in downmix, etc.

 I was hoping to love Silent Cinema. For the most part, it's the ideal solution (everything pipes through the receiver and it decodes DTS/DD,etc). I've found the HE-400s are not driven well by my receiver alone and have thus acquired an E17 to audition (and soon, an Asgard). To enjoy SC though I need to effectively double amp. I get a pretty clean signal as far as I can tell but have found myself underwhelmed by SC - if I'm being picky...and I am. I have fiddled with all of the DSPs available and their parameters. I find that vocals are often muffled and I just don't think SC does a very good job of faking surround sound.

 I was hoping the Xonar's DH would impress me more- at least it would cover 90% of my needs, leaving only the 360, which I could use SC for if need be. I've tried all 3 rooms (I used to stick with room 2 on the Pioneers). Again, underwhelmed. Vocals were better but aside from that... it wasn't worth the hassle involved to use audio from the card itself. It sounded less muddled compared to SC but not enough to justify how inconvenient it is to use (because my HTPC is buried in a closet and I have to fiddle w/ software to make use of the secondary card).

 Right now I'm testing the original Isone Surround plugin (http://www.jeroenbreebaart.com/audio_vst_jb.htm) in J River Media Center. I dig it. I've tweaked it some and I'm using a couple of other J River DSP's to assist EQ (increasing center channel volume, etc). It's very immersive and all and all, I really, really like it. J River is not what I normally use for watching movies (MediaPortal) but it's the only one with out of the box VST support. I'm still using the trial so... we'll see.

 I also tried ripping the audio tracks from some sample movies and processing them with DH in foobar and then muxing them back in. It sounds good - primarily because I was able to use the channel mixer plugin in conjunction with DH but what a pain! Not a viable solution.

 Sorry this is long-winded but yea, it's been interesting so far. I can't believe there's not a better hardware solution between something like the MixAmp (the lack of DTS decoding hurts) and the BD Headzone that's > $1,000 ... or the Smyth Realizer.

 You've piqued my interests with the THX/X Fi card. I hate to spend anymore money to try it but...it's tempting, especially with the RCA outs. The Xonar only has SPDIF so should I settle on the Asgard, I wouldn't be able to use it without a DAC. Mo' money...

 DTS Headphone:X sounds interesting but all I've really read was fluff. Apparently it impressed the crowd at CES. I doubt we'll ever see it take off.


----------



## Fulch36

Quote: 





whiskaz said:


> Sorry this is long-winded but yea, it's been interesting so far. I can't believe there's not a better hardware solution between something like the MixAmp (the lack of DTS decoding hurts) and the BD Headzone that's > $1,000 ... or the Smyth Realizer.
> 
> You've piqued my interests with the THX/X Fi card. I hate to spend anymore money to try it but...it's tempting, especially with the RCA outs. The Xonar only has SPDIF so should I settle on the Asgard, I wouldn't be able to use it without a DAC. Mo' money...
> 
> DTS Headphone:X sounds interesting but all I've really read was fluff. Apparently it impressed the crowd at CES. I doubt we'll ever see it take off.


 
   
  I agree completely, if the Headzone was 1/5th of it's current price I'd be very tempted indeed but I managed to get a THD for £95 including delivery (no idea how that translates to US pricing for the thing but that's nearly half price over here) so I'll see how I get on with that.
   
  If I decide I prefer DH then I'll be doing something along the lines of: THD (Optical) > Mixamp > Headphone Amp for games/movies and THD (RCA) > Headphone Amp for music.
   
  I'm not interested in the least when it comes to the Realizer or DTSX because there is so much effort involved in setting them up, the room I use my headphones in would be incredibly awkward to set up 5.1 speakers in let alone 7.1 and I doubt that many others would have the patience to do it either - the majority of people I've spoken to scoffed at the idea of spending 30 minutes making a MyEars profile.


----------



## Evshrug

I also was a bit underwhelmed by Silent Cinema, I made a rather lengthy post in Mad Lust Envy's thread (buried now) chronicling some of my experimentation. I found two _pretty_ satisfactory settings, I think it's even possible to have SC active WITHOUT the environmental effects of the DSPs, but in the end I just prefer surround with my little Recon3D USB processor. It only has a 3.5mm output, but that was fine though my Yamaha receiver until I got a dedicated headphone amp (which necessitated a 3.5mm to RCA cable, I just borrowed one by Monster my mom has laying around, sounds great!).

THX TruStudio Pro from the Recon3D USB sounds great to me, my first test made me think "Finally! NOW It's working well!" I would NOT recommend buying a Recon3D soundcard, Creative cut some corners with that line and the X-Fi and Z series cards are much better internal soundcards, but the USB model I have is good: digital connection & processing for computers (Mac-specific drivers too!) AND consoles (somewhat unique in this respect, internal soundcards only accept 2 channel PCM from consoles), small and appropriate to transport like your Pioneer device, THX mode is tweakable and settings are carried over to console/optical connections, etc. The only thing I DON'T like about it, so far, is the built-in amp. The upshot is it doesn't produce background noise, but it was designed for 32 Ohm, easy to drive headphones; my Q701's sit at near max volume setting for listening volume, and it sounds flat with an odd eliptical soundstage. Turning the Recon3D USB's volume a bit down from max (to avoid clipping) and double amping actually does a good job and makes sound more punchy, full bodied, and the soundstage is much more rounded out and deep. Now, if only it could adjust chat mixing with the Xbox 360, it would be golden. Oh, I guess I should mention the Recon3D USB doesn't decode DTS over optical either, but since I don't have a Blu-Ray player (plus Mad figured out how to have the PS3 convert DTS using bit streaming) I haven't run into any problems. I bet you could get PC software to decode DTS movie soundtracks for you anyway, too.

If you don't game on PC much, the other option would be to replace your Yamaha receiver with a Marantz with Dolby Headphone. You get all the receiver setup convenience, though of course you lose the positional audio advantage available in PC gaming. Another thing to consider (for headphones) is getting a soundcard that has a powerful built-in amp (like the Asus STX, and the Creative Z-series cards are supposed to have powerful amps too) so you wouldn't need a second dedicated headphone amp. The Zx model in particular may be perfect for you, because it includes a module for volume control and plugging in headphones that can reach out from your closet to somewhere more convenient (does it get hot in there?). I happen to like headphone amps though, particularly my tube hybrid 

Since I like the THX TruStudio Pro processing for surround better than Silent Cinema and all the samples of Dolby Headphone and CMSS-3D I've heard, I'm very curious about Creative's newest Z series internal soundcards (yes, I've heard from many people that SBX = THX without the brand fee), but for now I'm happy with what I think is the IDEAL surround processor to use with all my devices, for the money. I'll probably end up getting an internal soundcard from Creative someday, though


----------



## whiskaz

I'll have to dig through that thread to find your SC settings. I don't believe SC is engaged when you set the receiver to "Straight" and it's definitely not engaged using Pure Direct. Straight sounds good - it has the clarity, but it's very, obviously stereo. Imaging is way off. 
   
  The Recon 3D looks interesting. Some of Mad's cons turned me off of it. I'm sure I could get around the DTS snag by outputting PCM as well. I know the Mix Amp has some issues with certain low frequencies. I'd rather just avoid any of those sorta shortcomings if possible. Nothing's perfect, I know, but there's got to be something close to it out there  
   
  I thought about going for a stand-alone receiver with DH but now that I've discovered other options (and was underwhelmed by DH on my Xonar), I'm not sure it's worth adding another bulky receiver to the mix (the Yamaha is really good at everything else). 
   
  Right now it looks like I might settle on J River and some combination of VSTs for movie watching. I'm hoping the Asgard takes everything to the next level and works well double-amped with the Yamaha. If not, then I'll try to find a way to run it out of a sound card. Though with the Yamaha, at least I can make some volume adjustments with a remote  
   
  I'd kind of like to figure out a way to get a signal to some bass shakers while the headphones are in use... that would probably round it all out nicely haha... I'll cross that bridge later though.


----------



## benbenkr

You might also want to wait a little bit, as with Creative historically... they WILL release a USB version of their current line of soundcards.
  Z series USB? I'm pretty sure it's in the works.
   
  If they can retain at least that Maxim MAX97220A headphone amp and half of the other goodies from the actual soundcard, then I think it would be quite a seller.


----------



## Vader2k

The thread is coming together nicely so far!  I think it'll be a great resource.
  Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Here's a short, well set up blind test of two different compression bit-rates, I recommend you do it in a quiet environment:
> http://mp3ornot.com/
> 
> How did that test go? Write in the comments if the results surprised you!


 
   
  That was fun.  Yay, I got it right!  The differences were subtle; biggest ones between the two seemed to be the soundstage and separation of elements.
   
  Quote: 





> I also thought it would be good to share some audio tests that ought to help you evaluate the quality of the headphones you use:
> http://www.audiocheck.net/soundtests_headphones.php


 
   
  Wow, a lot of cool tests in here.  Should I be worried that I couldn't hear above between 16kHz - 17kHz?


----------



## Evshrug

vader2k said:


> The thread is coming together nicely so far!  I think it'll be a great resource.
> 
> That was fun.  Yay, I got it right!  The differences were subtle; biggest ones between the two seemed to be the soundstage and separation of elements.
> 
> ...



My hearing range cuts off somewhere around there too. I wouldn't worry about it, from what I remember about those frequencies they sounded REALLY annoying. Why do you think dogs bark at dog whistles?


----------



## Vader2k

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> My hearing range cuts off somewhere around there too. I wouldn't worry about it, from what I remember about those frequencies they sounded REALLY annoying. Why do you think dogs bark at dog whistles?


 
   
  Cool.  The only reason I was concerned was because I thought it was perhaps too far away from 20kHz, despite the likelihood that few can actually hear all the way up there.  Yeah, I've heard about the higher frequencies that "young ears" can't stand while "seasoned ears" can't hear at all (I think you mentioned it earlier, but I know I've heard about it elsewhere too).  Perhaps I need to get a hold of that for when my kids get out of line.  Hmm... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  In regards to dog whistles, I was always under the impression that the frequency of the whistle was higher than 20kHz and that's why people couldn't hear it.  I realize I could be wrong about that, though.


----------



## Evshrug

No, dog whistles are typically beyond 20hz (unless you're just using some average whistle). And it might've been me... Annoying mosquito buzz? My cousins found a ringtone called "The Most Annoying Sound in the World" that I couldn't hear at all and made me first realize I'd "lost" some hearing, maybe you could use that for "pest control"


----------



## SoAmusing777

I came back here and read everything "properly" this time. Superb stuff  Anywho, the only was to get PCM/lossless on console is by way of receiver, yeah? I noticed you mentioned Marantz, but it's HDMI 1.1 =/ My monitor actually takes advantage of 1.3, and when OLED comes out, that Marantz 1.1 will not do at all.
   
  BTW!! Sleek-Audio FINALLY came out with the SA7's!! Best wireless headphone?


----------



## Evshrug

Thanks for the compliment! I hope to do even better!

Only way to get LPCM from a console is through HDMI, which results in needing a receiver. Still doubt it would make an audible difference for compressed console games as opposed to PCM over Optical. One way or another, console audio is compressed, it's like the difference between driving a Volkswagen Beatle on the highway or on the Le Mans track. I'm not trying to tell you to give up – well maybe a little, but only because I doubt you're gonna hear what you want to hear, and I think it's just as important you let go of worrying about max sound and just enjoy very good sound. I also think wireless headphones are inherently a compromise between sound and convenience, though I haven't read anything about those Sleek-Audio's except what you just wrote. Still expect it would be like trying to make a Beatle into an amphibious vehicle  Please do report if you discover the Holy Grail, though! I think the wireless laser mouse I bought like a decade ago was a holy grail of precise, ergonomic, wireless mouse 

Are all Marantz HDMI 1.1 spec? Anyway, you know I'm happy enough substituting THX tech for Dolby tech. 

I need you or someone to encourage me to wake up tomorrow and finish writing my FiiO Mont Blanc review, so I can post it and get this thread rolling again. I'm going to listen with the amp some more before I fall asleep tonight, hopefully I'll crystalize my thoughts on it.

BTW, Wendy's interview went AWESOME, I nailed it with super-composure (though my hands were slightly shaky once I was done), and I'll know by Monday if they want to immediately put me on management training 0_0


----------



## benbenkr

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Thanks for the compliment! I hope to do even better!
> 
> Only way to get LPCM from a console is through HDMI, which results in needing a receiver. Still doubt it would make an audible difference for compressed console games as opposed to PCM over Optical. One way or another, console audio is compressed, it's like the difference between driving a Volkswagen Beatle on the highway or on the Le Mans track. I'm not trying to tell you to give up – well maybe a little, but only because I doubt you're gonna hear what you want to hear, and I think it's just as important you let go of worrying about max sound and just enjoy very good sound. I also think wireless headphones are inherently a compromise between sound and convenience, though I haven't read anything about those Sleek-Audio's except what you just wrote. Still expect it would be like trying to make a Beatle into an amphibious vehicle
> 
> ...


 
   
  Audio on games are compressed... ON THE Xbox 360 (go thank the DVD route that Microsoft took).
  Many games on the PS3, particularly first party exclusives or AAA third-party exclusives do have generally uncompressed audio.
   
  Among the popular ones:
  MGS4 - very popular for its audio quality, amazing too because Kojima made a point to jam as much uncompressed audio as they can into a dual-layer Blu-ray.
  Uncharted series - again, uncompressed.
  God of War 3 - again, Sony said not to compromise on audio quality, just go bonkers and fill the entire disc up.
   
  There are many more, but I reaaaalllly do hope that come next-gen... console gamers aren't getting funny compressed audio over their games anymore.
   
  Maybe except for downloadable titles only to keep the file size restriction in place but yeah, retail releases shouldn't have audio compromises considering how much money and talent developers have to fill to get good music, sound design and voices in a game.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





benbenkr said:


> Audio on games are compressed... ON THE Xbox 360 (go thank the DVD route that Microsoft took).
> Many games on the PS3, particularly first party exclusives or AAA third-party exclusives do have generally uncompressed audio.
> 
> Among the popular ones:
> ...


 
   
  Compression isn't necessarily a bad thing...if it's lossless, like FLAC, Dolby TrueHD, or DTS Master Audio. All the quality at a fourth of the space!
   
  Problem is, I get the vibe that a lot of game developers don't really care, because a lot of their audience wouldn't notice the difference. Not just in terms of compression, but the actual audio production process/mastering, support for proper 3D audio over headphones, etc.


----------



## SoAmusing777

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Thanks for the compliment! I hope to do even better!





> *Why is it putting the lines again? Anyway, sure thing! You're doing wonderful as is, and I know it will only get better.*





> Only way to get LPCM from a console is through HDMI, which results in needing a receiver. Still doubt it would make an audible difference for compressed console games as opposed to PCM over Optical. One way or another, console audio is compressed, it's like the difference between driving a Volkswagen Beatle on the highway or on the Le Mans track. I'm not trying to tell you to give up – well maybe a little, but only because I doubt you're gonna hear what you want to hear, and I think it's just as important you let go of worrying about max sound and just enjoy very good sound. I also think wireless headphones are inherently a compromise between sound and convenience, though I haven't read anything about those Sleek-Audio's except what you just wrote. Still expect it would be like trying to make a Beatle into an amphibious vehicle
> 
> 
> 
> ...





> *That's what I thought. It may not, but I just like that the entire thing is integrated. I get an amp, dac, virtual surround processor, and what not, all rolled into one. I'll be benefiting on some games, as mentioned below. Nice analogy btw *
> 
> *Yes, but the thing is, I'm not looking for the best sound evarrr, in my wireless phones. I just love the convenience of them being wireless so I can do whatever I wanna do, namely exercise, without the worry of the cords or anything else. Go read about them then!  They talked about them heavily in 2010, a little in 2011, and I, as well as everyone else, thought they'd never come out, but they finally did! I just like the construction of them. If I'm going wireless, that means I'm gonna want something somewhat more rugged. *
> 
> ...


 
   
  Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> Compression isn't necessarily a bad thing...if it's lossless, like FLAC, Dolby TrueHD, or DTS Master Audio. All the quality at a fourth of the space!
> 
> Problem is, I get the vibe that a lot of game developers don't really care, because a lot of their audience wouldn't notice the difference. Not just in terms of compression, but the actual audio production process/mastering, support for proper 3D audio over headphones, etc.


 
   
  So those codecs *are *compressed then. It's PCM that's totally uncompressed, then it gets converted into FLAC or the like? Neat.
 Yes yes, it's sad. Maybe we here at Head-Fi can spur them to change! Lol.


----------



## Evshrug

*Forecasting the Next "Hot Feature" in Gaming (and a little advice on college)*

SoAmusing, I do have a Bachelor's degree, but I majored in Graphic Design. Though I took many business classes (Marketing, Management, HR, International Business, and independently have researched some great business moves and companies), I did not take the two Accounting courses required to complete a business minor. I would've had to have studied up for a test to prove I was up to speed to skip to taking accounting 2, which they would've let me do, but I would then have had to delay graduation another semester to take accounting 1 anyway despite it being a repeat of the content covered it he exemption test. My whole last year (of my 6.5 years in college) was spent taking level 1 graphic design classes I'd skipped before as it is, but we won't get into that. After a year of odd-jobs and freelancing since graduation, I've come to take even less for granted. Suffice to say, I was nervous, even for a Wendy's interview, because life had been teaching me that even if I'm decently smart, red tape could very well slow me down considerably. 

BTW, I *HIGHLY* recommend only paying for education at an institution with *MANY* networking and business connections – that definitely fits under the category of this thread's title.

I do have ideas about business though.

Consider the issue of 3D audio, especially in games. We have a lot of events converging right now, which make me excited for the near future:
+ Antiquated consoles < the PC experience
+ Steam: profitable and safe for game developers/publishers, inexpensive and mostly convenient for consumers
+ Upcoming "Steam Box," which I think will probably be the Piston.
+ New generation of consoles
+ Major growth in Headphone appreciation and sales (say what you will about bang-for-buck, but Thank You Monster Beats & Turtle Beach!)
+ The practicality and affordability of Headphone gaming for the biggest gamer market, highschool/college gamers living in small, almost public spaces
+ The gamer and Internet culture of chasing performance and immersion

Seems like the stage is set. Ya like HD Video? 3D Video (and 2 player fullscreenscreen)? High framerate? Lossless audio and award-winning game soundtracks and audio design? How about leveraging the instinctive, immersive experience of 3D, *full 3D*, conveniently within the confines of a dorm or bedroom! If marketed well, any system NOT including this feature will be publicly deemed inferior. I dunno about you guys, but I much more readily buy into the benefits of 3D audio vs 3D video in their respective states of development.

Little, relevant story: the story of Kodak imaging. Printing rolls of film used to be like printing money. They were THE absolute leader of film emulsion technology. Somewhere along the line, one of their scientists with the last name Beyer thought of a way to use the luminance sensitivity of CCD chips combined with a color filter array to create a kind of digital film. I think we all know about digital cameras today, but even well into the 2k years, Kodak higher ups were holding meetings about "How are we going to kill off this digital photography thing?" They made a few great early professional DSLR cameras, then degenerated into cheap and frankly unimpressive P&S models that lost out in their main selling point, convenience, to the cameraphone. And now, they've filed bankruptcy, cost hundreds/thousands of people their jobs, and skeletonized the majority of their former business.

Creative could be the next Kodak. Used to be a discrete sound card was the only way to get computer audio. Now, they whine about how their business is being cannibalized by built-in motherboard audio. They could die... Or, they could live up to their namesake, think beyond hardware, and pull a Microsoft, licensing their processing technology to other electronics manufacturer's like Dolby and DTS do. Imagine a Steam Box or the next Xbox offering a built-in Headphone port, with Sound Blaster 3D Audio processing. Wow. Sure strengthens the brand image in the public mind. They get a whole casual consumer segment, make money with a previous business competitor, and Creative could STILL offer the same hardware upgrade experiences in discrete soundcards that few people understand as of now. They also MUST get "creative" with better marketing. Demos, visible participation in MLG and eSports tournaments, maybe throw their own gaming event at colleges, reaching out to indie game developers, ... Whatever!

If Creative doesn't do it... someone else probably will. And then, we gamers might get in-game 3D surround audio anyway, when Turtle Beach or Skullcandy buys the tech from a bankrupt Kodak of the gaming world.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Creative could be the next Kodak. Used to be a discrete sound card was the only way to get computer audio. Now, they whine about how their business is being cannibalized by built-in motherboard audio. They could die... Or, they could live up to their namesake, think beyond hardware, and pull a Microsoft, licensing their processing technology to other electronics manufacturer's like Dolby and DTS do. Imagine a Steam Box or the next Xbox offering a built-in Headphone port, with Sound Blaster 3D Audio processing. Wow. Sure strengthens the brand image in the public mind. They get a whole casual consumer segment, make money with a previous business competitor, and Creative could STILL offer the same hardware upgrade experiences in discrete soundcards that few people understand as of now. They also MUST get "creative" with better marketing. Demos, visible participation in MLG and eSports tournaments, maybe throw their own gaming event at colleges, reaching out to indie game developers, ... Whatever!
> 
> If Creative doesn't do it... someone else probably will. And then, we gamers might get in-game 3D surround audio anyway, when Turtle Beach or Skullcandy buys the tech from a bankrupt Kodak of the gaming world.


 
   
  The funny thing is, this is more or less what I'm proposing that they do with their 3D gaming audio assets. Make them into an audio middleware for developers everywhere to use, maybe even displace FMOD in the market. If Creative themselves won't do it, someone who will should hopefully buy up all the tech they hold the rights to.
   
  Also, it's very, very likely that CMSS-3D Headphone itself wasn't entirely in-house, but instead borrows a lot from Aureal A3D and Sensaura Virtual Ear. (It's already been said that MacroFX was one of Sensaura's planned additions to their Virtual Ear binaural HRTF mixer, but Creative bought them out before they released it, just before the X-Fi line hit the market.)


----------



## whiskaz

Re: college. Did you go to the Art Institute there in Pittsburgh? Arts in general seem like a tough gig to break into. I wanted to go to film school (over a decade ago) but ended up going the boring route. I develop applications for the Treasury Department (primarily Java). In a lot of ways I lucked out. There's definitely something to be said about the luck angle. Even in high school when I was considering film school, I knew luck was going to play as a part of getting into the business as anything.

That and college is kind of overrated. You should be given an opportunity to prove your worth without a multi-thousand dollar piece of paper to back it up.


----------



## Evshrug

Wiskaz,
I actually went to college at a small liberal arts college in the city of Greensburg. I bet if I'd gone to to the Art Institute, which is basically like a vocational school, I'd actually have had more immediate opportunities upon graduation. My education was good, but the program was pretty small (there were only like 10 people that graduated in GD with me), and there weren't many internship opportunities in Greensburg (and none that had room for taking me on as an employee upon graduation). Time will tell if the degree (which doesn't look as nice as my high school diploma from a graphic design standpoint, lol!) will end up clearing some future glass ceilings for me. I plan to make a little money and take some more classes at the Art Institute anyway, maybe get a masters, but honestly I'd mostly be doing it for the networking connections and keeping abreast of new techniques.

Nameless,
It's like the classic example of "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em." There's probably a lot of kickback against such a move by the higher ups, you know, change is scary and not guaranteed. They may also not believe it would be possible to get their brand name on other manufacturer's electronics, perhaps even tried a few times and only received unfavorable deals. I think their biggest fear would be they could spread their assets out too thin if they farm out their software separate from their hardware... but then Asus' cards, and most computer DAC accessories, are hardware upgrades with other's software or very little software. But they gotta keep trying, and in the meantime they need better marketing for their business.


----------



## Rosbife

Hey, Evshrug  sorry I haven't said anything, but I was using my college mail for a while and Headfi mails that were redirected there were being filtered to spam.
   
  In regards to your second-to-last post on my thread, Undisclosed Desires is one of those songs that gets my eyes closed and just removes me from existence for a while. However, I must say I've never listened to it in any superior quality - I actually don't even remember the origin of my iPod version.
  As for any differences with the amp... I'm quite reluctant to say I did. There's a clear difference, my ears just aren't sharp enough to actually tell whether it's for better or for worse as far as pure quality (precision, depth, clarity, spatial, general timbre) goes. I can at most say I enjoy listening to music on it, and it's virtually always on at home. The high-gain is unnecessary for me, and the bass boost has had its moments in a couple songs/albums, but is always off as well, as manual EQing produces much better results. 
   
  As for your last post, she absolutely loved them. I don't know how it would have gone down with the Citiscapes instead, but she fell in love with these ones (I'm starting to realize I'm being responsible for quite a trend towards spending some more on headphones around here, as people try her headphones and frequently get blown away. Doesn't happen as frequently with my M50s actually!)

 I must add, though, we're not together anymore. ^^'...


----------



## Evshrug

Rosbife,
I'm sorry to hear that... But perhaps it was for the best? You never know where life will take you! I forgot which headphones you ended up choosing though XD

I'll tell you what, with a lot of amps, I wonder if I'm just imagining things regarding "improvement." I like a more gripping, engaging sound, but I hate when the sounds are so "hard" my ears get irritated. And then some sound almost exactly the same, especially between solid state amplifiers. I suspect the difference or improvement made by a more expensive DAC may not be detectable, but I've tried to keep an open mind about it. I actually got to borrow an ODAC, but I haven't been able to get the darn thing to work! I had another whole "article" planned out to open for discussion too.

Last thing I wanna say, it's OK you didn't reply straight away. You don't owe me anything, but I appreciate that you did reply. I like to think I have cyber friends out there.


----------



## Evshrug

Oh. My god.
Gonna go off topic for a sec guys, but I just drove a stick-shift for the first time. With a turbo, no less. And it wasn't just me and my dad's car or something, it was at a car dealership 35 minutes from home and "learning" from a dealer who, bless his patience, probably expected me to already be familiar with the process and feel.

It was like learning to drive for the first time all over again, for the first ten minutes I couldn't get into first gear and just stalled again and again. The salesman kept saying I needed to be gentler with the clutch release, but I realized that the real problem (cuz I was being as soft as I could easing the clutch back on) was that I wasn't using the gas almost at all. So, I had to be "brave" and use some gas (2000 rpm) before beginning to release the clutch, kinda just go for it to get it to work. When I finally got it for the first time (and not just a little "yay! We got past 11mph this time, it's a record!") I was very pleased – hello sense of accomplishment! – but I didn't realize that I would stall again at the end of the parking lot (an empty church where the dealer took me to "play" a little bit) when I stopped.

After about 20 minutes of an impromptu driving lesson, a couple times reaching 2nd, 3rd, and shifting down (starting into 1st gear is the hardest part!), and achieving like a 2:3 success rate, I was ready to drive back to the dealership for now. I almost made it back to the dealership, but I stalled again across the street at a stop sign. I traded driver's seats so I wouldn't roll backwards into the car behind me (she was actually pretty understanding, though grateful I was giving the wheel back to the dealer too, of course), and pretty much that was the end of my first stick driving. I felt a little better when the dealer stalled trying to reverse from the garage door (manuals are a lost art).

I don't know if I'll end up choosing the manual, because I'm torn. Of course I was a bit embarrassed after 10 years of getting better and better and smoother at driving (automatic), but my main worry is that I'll always be a bit stressed trying to drive (even once I "get the feel" and instinct of it). On the other hand, I think it's good to know how to drive stick and really keeps you aware of your car, and I also want to master the challenge. Damn though, it felt sporty! I do know I definitely need to thank the very patient salesman somehow, and he pretty much has my loyalty because of that.


----------



## HalidePisces

evshrug said:


> I don't know if I'll end up choosing the manual, because I'm torn. Of course I was a bit embarrassed after 10 years of getting better and better and smoother at driving (automatic), but my main worry is that I'll always be a bit stressed trying to drive (even once I "get the feel" and instinct of it). On the other hand, I think it's good to know how to drive stick and really keeps you aware of your car, and I also want to master the challenge. Damn though, it felt sporty! I do know I definitely need to thank the very patient salesman somehow, and he pretty much has my loyalty because of that.




The fun part about having a manual transmission in the US is that most people can't drive stick. That means your car is less likely to be stolen and your acquaintances aren't going to be asking to borrow your car (unless they also know how). And it'll probably come in handy should you ever have to drive in Europe.

A little bit back on topic, what's your opinion on EQ?


----------



## Evshrug

Regarding EQ:
I've had good experiences with moderate EQ, but over time I've learned that EQ applied to the analogue stage is much less destructive than EQ from software. That still wouldn't stop me from enjoying software/digital EQ, the bass EQ built into the Recon3D USB was pretty impressive, and with certain headphones I often turn on treble reducer on my iPod. Another rule of thumb, it's generally better to reduce frequencies via EQ to balance the overall tone rather than boost one, because you run the risk of pushing that freq into a point where you'll experience clipping.

Life experience: I got the FiiO E12 at the beginning of the year (limited first release), it has a very targeted bass boost which I really like. It's not a particularly narrow boost, but it's 6 dB peak is centered around 20hz and rolls off into flat before the mids get started. The boost reaches so low into the sub-sub bass, where headphones tend to roll off their response and could use a boost the most, and yet it doesn't bleed over into the rest of the sound and doesn't result in midbass bloat (by stacking up more bass where many headphones are already more "bass-boosted" than neutral). Frankly, I leave it on basically all the time, it doesn't hurt anything on a delicate classic track or song that isn't supposed to have a lot of bass, but the deeper a song digs, the more the amp backs it up. However, since all of us who were getting the first units talked about how we enjoyed it but noted that the effect wasn't very pronounced on most songs (cuz they don't have notes that low), there were a handful of people who didn't have the amp, read our reviews, and expressed that the bass boost wasn't enough, which caused FiiO to tweak the boost so that it peaks at a higher frequency and affects the midbass more, making the effect more noticeable on more songs. Head-Fi'ers started calling the revised model "V2," that's what you can buy today AFAIK. I haven't convinced myself to let my E12 go, because I think that it's analogue – stage EQ is unique.
------


I'm thinking about picking up an external DAC for music, I'm thinking a FiiO E07k, Schiit Modi, Audioengine D1, or a Creative SoundBlaster Z for my computer and games. The thing about the Z though, I mostly use Mac OS X, and since Creative hasn't made Mac-native drivers for the card I worry that the computer won't boot into Mac if I have the soundcard plugged in. If not for that issue, I would probably have a Z already. Anyone have thoughts?


----------



## HalidePisces

I've been playing with a digital 10-band EQ and it's been a good learning experience noticing changes on familiar songs. Definitely helps in identifying frequencies and other subtleties. Haven't tried EQ-ing in games yet. I doubt I'll be working with an analog 31-band equalizer anytime soon though. I'm looking to get the iFi iCan headphone amplifier once I have the money. According to the review by ClieOS, it has a two very nice levels of bass boost centered at a little under 20Hz (one is +6.5dB, the other is a whopping +10dB).

About the Sound Blaster Z, has Creative ever made Mac drivers for their PCI/PCI-e sound cards? The USB sound cards should work if this thread is any indication. Most Mac laptops have an optical out port and the safest bet would be to use that. By the way, don't you have a Recon3D USB? I think I remember you talking about it on MLE's thread. Or was that someone else?


----------



## Evshrug

Quote: 





halidepisces said:


> I've been playing with a digital 10-band EQ and it's been a good learning experience noticing changes on familiar songs. Definitely helps in identifying frequencies and other subtleties. Haven't tried EQ-ing in games yet. I doubt I'll be working with an analog 31-band equalizer anytime soon though. I'm looking to get the iFi iCan headphone amplifier once I have the money. According to the review by ClieOS, it has a two very nice levels of bass boost centered at a little under 20Hz (one is +6.5dB, the other is a whopping +10dB).
> 
> About the Sound Blaster Z, has Creative ever made Mac drivers for their PCI/PCI-e sound cards? The USB sound cards should work if this thread is any indication. Most Mac laptops have an optical out port and the safest bet would be to use that. By the way, don't you have a Recon3D USB? I think I remember you talking about it on MLE's thread. Or was that someone else?


 
  Hey HalidePisces,
  Sorry I didn't notice you had replied!
  That iCan amp sounds awesome!
   
  Short answer to your questions: No, Yes, And I Did and want it back.
  It is curious that Creative hasn't made Mac drivers for any Sound Blaster internal cards AFAIK, and that includes the Z series. That's the only barrier to entry keeping me from buying a Z for myself, since I would have to open my computer and disconnect the Z card anytime I wanted to boot into OS X, which is where I'm at 90% of the time. It is curious, since as you said the Recon3D USB DOES have native Mac drivers to install from a disc (and then you can connect to the mac via USB), and videogame options are expanding for the platform WHILE ALSO OS X has really been supporting OpenAL (and OpenGL) for a long time. I imagine Creative wouldn't have to start from scratch to get Z-series drivers for PCI. I'll probably get a Recon3D USB again, because it was simply a more modern (and better to my ears) virtual surround processing than Dolby Headphone, and I loved that I could use it for all my gaming situations (Mac, Windows, Xbox, even iPad if I wanted extrapolated surround from stereo). I've been reading great things about the new Z-series cards, and I would recommend them first for Windows gamers, but for Mac and consoles I recommend the Recon3D USB first. Watching movies on my Mac, with headphones, was great! I believe you can use some of Creative's other external sound cards connected via Optical, but I think that's only a Stereo option. Could be wrong on that one though.
   
  There were a few other people that have/had the Recon3D USB (like AxelCloris, NamelessPFG, and even MLE borrowed one and is using a Recon3Di software suite on his laptop now), but I was the main proponent. Mad prefers Dolby Headphone, but I've been using my Turtle Beach DSS for a few months now and I can't shake my annoyance with the echo/reverb effect, it just doesn't work as well for me as the Recon3D USB, and CMSS-3D is too treble-harsh from it's processing. Compressed demos of the new SBX processing on the Z-series cards on Youtube are impressive, but there just isn't a Mac (or console) compatible surround option for those. Yet?


----------



## Evshrug

New Headphone!
V-MODA M-100 (stealth, with extra Orange shields). Part 1 is up, I'll post part 2 this evening after work (and a date). I really shouldn't say "a *short* unboxing" because I get too excited about the details:
Part 1

Part 2


----------



## Evshrug

*AKG K712 Pro Headphones - Live First Impressions!*

Setting up gear and thread, warming up the tubes...
First listening will be with my standard (but maybe now outdated) "Quality Test" playlist:

Angel
Undisclosed Desires
Knights of Cydonia
Gold Digger
Journeyman
The Only Hand to Hold (feat Shara Worden)
Blow Out
Fake Plastic Trees
Dreamer
Patience
I Know It's Over
Tiger, My Friend
Fugue for Solo Guitar, BWV 1000 in A Minor
The Planets, Suite for Large Orchestra, Op. 32: IV. Jupiter, the Bringer of Jolity,
Adagio in G Minor for Strings and Organ


Some low-fi pictures:
   
K712 unpacked, with Q701 alongside to compare and contrast.

Physically: K712 earpads feel like the same velour as the Q701, though the pads are now less stiff (easier to compress). The inner part of the pad ring seems less rounded. Though the Q701 distinctly has a taller pad along the "back" side of the pad that goes behind your ears, these K712 pads appear virtually even (perhaps the rear side is stiffer? Doubtful, doesn't feel different). The headband bumps of the Q701 are not on these K712, immediately noticeable because I always tilted the headband in front of the "point" of my head (behind feels like it would slip off with either). The headband width that sits along your head (front to back) is thinner on the K712.

Current music setup: 2005 iPod Video > FiiO L11 Line-Out Dock connector > monster 3.5mm to RCA cable > Zigis' "Rock 'n Glass" class A tube amp with an Amperex 6DJ8 "Bugle Boy" (white letters) > AKG coil cable > AKG K712

-----
Angel - Massive Attack
Fades in smoothly.... Bass is a little looser than the Q, but still on the side of controlled. Nice energy, pleasurable. Texture, not just a boom but a buzz. Now mid musical accents come in, sounding liquid. In and out pressure feeling on some of the bass. VOCALS Ahhhh Andy Horace... Velvety almost feminine voice sounds nice, though bass is more forward (Horace doesn't sound recessed, just bass forward). You can hear the liquid on his tongue/lips. Guitar has a nice buzz. Cymbals maybe less sparkle than I'm used to, but the beat cymbals are distorted by the song engineer, the normal cymbals used for accents have a bit of sheen but are smoother yet perhaps less sparkly than the Q701 I'm used to. Dang! Good threat to the bass! Tempo just slowed a bit... The little nuances like hit power are well represented. Finishing bass sounds awesome, like two big marbles hitting eachother and vibrating rapidly, nice texture in the reproduction of many little hits, have a larger boom to them.


-----
Undisclosed Desires - Muse
Rhythm seems almost slow. Bass still hitting with nice texture, but I turned down the volume a tad, seem a little loud (not used to them yet of course). Violin plucks in background sound like they are plucked in a small room, but with a little delay (echo) added to the processing. The background buzz buzz has nice power and solidity, tho I'm still not sure if it's a bit much for my taste, slightly fatigued or will be? It's just strong for me. Vocals are good by the way, not usually the first thing I pay attention to just to be honest. Easy to hear the whisper accompanying the lead singing and all the effects. The cello vrmm answered by the sub-bass woooom @ the end is interesting still, but not new compared to Q701.


-----
Knights of Cydonia - Muse
Panning effect is interesting, moved around to my left ear with a bit of out front along the way. Another effect seemed to go behind just now, this is just a stereo recording right? Still lemon/oval shaped, but gives me high hopes for surround processing. Vocals seem pretty up front, backing voices sound like they're trying to be more distant but not so far. @ 3:20 reveals the part you play in Guitar Hero 3 pretty well, though vocals are more prevalent. Jamming out @ 4:12 (paused and rewound to that point, impact of pressing play YE-OW! Bam! Here's the music!) doesn't sound slow tempo because you can feel the speed of the drumming. Dump-pa-da-bump! While cymbals go Ching — Ching — Ching, in this song if you can't hear the drums well you end up just hearing the cymbal hits which slows the pace.


-----
Gold Digger - Kanye West
Still hate this song, still a good test to see if drivers can control the bass enough. Wow, actually this does a keep them controlled... It's actually listenable. This track was terribly mixed, I'm confused because the bass doesn't seem stronger, seems right. I guess the last time I listened to these was with the M-100, too much with those for me, hah. I basically only listen to this song when I'm testing headphones, and stop after the first drum things start. But I'm actually listening pretty far in this time (think I let it play with the Q701 too), and the kazoo-trumpet thingie that starts 2:40 actually sounds pretty nifty. Chico, I need your "Not Bad" pic inserted here, LOL!


-----
Journeyman - Amon Tobin
A weird collection of recorded sound samples with bass beats. This is a 256k file, but it some things sound plasticy or held back... Not sure how to pinpoint it. I think I'm going to have to get used to the sound signature of these headphones before I can turn them up, but the reason I have this song in the list is because some of the sounds feel holographic or really "present" in the room with me, not happening now with these headphones. Some interesting bits, but I haven't listened to this song much lately anyway because it's not really musical.


-----
The Only Hand to Hold - Prefuse 73
Love this song, let's pause and focus on the start... Watery, dreamy, floating... Not getting shivers but enjoying myself for sure. Vocals are a little dark and haunting, but nice. Static bursts have nice texture, like touching (except auditory) satin cloth and feeling it while occasionally getting shocks from static. Sounds like cloth with static rather than plastic with crinkles, very smooth presentation (no lack of detail, just different timbre). And I do like the timbre of this song on these headphones. Floating on water feel, though not the floating away on air feel you get with the Q701.


-----
Blow Out - Radiohead
Wow, sounds laid back, I guess I really turned down the volume earlier. Smooth smooth smooth, almost relaxing, relaxed concentration not sleepy. Touched the volume knob up a bit. Bit more. First jammin bit sounds flatter than I'm used to, little more wall-of-sound-y. Second jamming section seems a little better, almost lifting to the sky... As the guitar rises, seems to have a little sparkle  I think I'd usually call this very end part almost screechy, no problem here  good stuff!


-----
Fake Plastic Trees - Radiohead
First thought was "Thom's voice sounds nice." Maybe these headphones traded a little treble extremeness for smoother treble and a little more glaring bass? Or maybe... dare I say... the headphones need a little burned in? I mean, I need to get used to the bass, but some of the mids seem like they're holding back from vibrating freely, even though they are forward enough and loud enough. Almost like when you bang a drum with your hand or a chime with a stick, if you don't bounce your hand away just right you don't dampen the instrument from vibrating freely, the K712 show amazing detail but seem too often like you're not getting a good hit and playing freely. Could also be a compression thing though, I'm talking here about impressions from a few songs (while I'm playing this song for a 2nd time over) and a most of them are 256 Kbps. Plastic Trees was nice overall.


------
Dreamer - Elizaveta
Free iTunes single, I liked her vocals before, once I got the Q701 I noticed how much the sound engineers played with her voice and do weird tremulo things. Her timbre sounds nice, little hint of cello in the back is nice with the more audible piano and synth buzz. Piano timbre lower register sounds a little held back. LOL @ her "serendipitous en-count-uhs." So the K712 passes my female vocals, though not soaring sparkle.


------
Patience - Guns and Roses
Acoustic guitar, enjoying the timbre. Bit of a center image void apparent here. Vocals sound good/nice. These are really good and refined, got just enough buzz and stuff. Venue space seems too small though, kinda miss that about the Q701. 

-----
Interjection, I paused my music to think about this. My feelings at this point (remember, first listen), not sure if I want to spend more improving my Audio chain to improve it, or go back to Q701. Doesn't seem majorly "wow," nor much changed from the Q701 except headband comfort, I kinda want to see if a DAC would push it into that WOW which then makes me reflect "I had WOW with this setup and the Q701 the first time I heard it. My ears have changed now, but am I throwing more money at trying to recapture the magic of first listen?" I have heard these songs many times, some of them are favourites but I have listened to them many times over the years so there's little discovery left in them, and IIRC the first time I heard my Q701 (which was unamped) I heard the range improved a bit over the AD700 but I wasn't hugely impressed. When I went back to the AD700 though, it was enough of a difference that I preferred the Q701 more and enjoyed it more. Right now, I'm also enjoying the K712, but I'm again not hugely impressed with the difference. First time I heard the tube amp though, with the second tube (Sylvania JAN 6DJ8), I WAS very impressed and listening to these test tracks got my feet unconsciously jangling to the music. I think I'll switch back to that tube tomorrow, and keep listening to these K712, because I like what I'm hearing and I'm pretty confident it will grow on me.

I had a pretty long day at work, gonna take a dinner break
-----


----------



## Evshrug

I took about a 30 minute break, and got back to it... This time I'm laying down, and I switched out my amp for my FiiO E12.
WHAT? Am I going crazy?
I'm enjoying them more off the solid state amp! More even across the frequency range... The songs sound more like I expect. No blow-by blow this time, I'm typing now after listening to the rest of the playlist, which looped around and now I'm back all the way up to Journeyman. Seems like it's clearer and more holographic now. Was this a really fast case of brain burn-in Caused by sleepiness? Curious. OOOH, hang on guys, Only Hand to Hold just came on and sounds marvelous...


----------



## AxelCloris

I absolutely love the color on the K712. So gorgeous. I'd be picking those up if I weren't going to get the Alpha Dogs when the upgrade program is launched. Also, loving this play-by-play impressions idea.


----------



## Evshrug

Thanks! I actually have similar notes from when I first listened to the Q701, though I haven't published them. My final review will be where actual conclusions will be made though, after I've listened a lot more and gotten a general grasp of things. I'd also like to add, though I stopped giving a blow by blow while listening with the E12, that part of my listening was also very important because it was mostly smooth sailing, and because I almost got all the way through the playlist again without really noticing the passing of time. It's kinda funny: I guess treble highs really do make me feel high like a bird soaring, but the K712's combination of smoother treble, more liquid mids, and bass prominence (not overblown just the most forward presence) let me relax in a song and felt like drifting across a mirror lake, so smooth yet the bottom end grounded it.

Are you selling both your Q701 and Mad Dogs to get the Alpha Dogs? Seems like you wouldn't need both "dogs," but then I don't know if the signature is more different between them than I would expect.

Also, think I should post my Q701 blow-by-blow thoughts from a year ago?


----------



## AxelCloris

evshrug said:


> Thanks! I actually have similar notes from when I first listened to the Q701, though I haven't published them. My final review will be where actual conclusions will be made though, after I've listened a lot more and gotten a general grasp of things. I'd also like to add, though I stopped giving a blow by blow while listening with the E12, that part of my listening was also very important because it was mostly smooth sailing, and because I almost got all the way through the playlist again without really noticing the passing of time. It's kinda funny: I guess treble highs really do make me feel high like a bird soaring, but the K712's combination of smoother treble, more liquid mids, and bass prominence (not overblown just the most forward presence) let me relax in a song and felt like drifting across a mirror lake, so smooth yet the bottom end grounded it.
> 
> Are you selling both your Q701 and Mad Dogs to get the Alpha Dogs? Seems like you wouldn't need both "dogs," but then I don't know if the signature is more different between them than I would expect.
> 
> Also, think I should post my Q701 blow-by-blow thoughts from a year ago?


 
  
 The Mad Dogs will be shipped back to be used in Dan's upgrade program. $300 + Mad Dogs with alpha pads = Alpha Dog. Which works out well for me. I'm running an older mod version of the Mad Dogs, and they wouldn't sell for $300 themselves, so his program will actually save me a bit of money when I upgrade them. That's why I've been contemplating an open fun headphone as a compliment since they're reported to be very neutral without modifying the bass screw.
  
 I know I'd be interested in reading the blow-by-blow thoughts. It's an interesting insight since most of the reviews around here are polished and reviewed before posting. The method you used above is a more "human" review of the headphone. It's a nice change of pace, I like it.


----------



## Evshrug

Lol, and definitely not more polished. Thing is though, there was a little more magic that happened with the Q's, but that's not to say with the K712 I won't have that song hit me in that mood right when this draft of air brisks the back of my neck...
I'll add a good picture of the K712 too, it's a menacing but sharp looking little bugger. Maybe not so little, relative to headphones, heh.


----------



## pietcux

Did you already exchange the pads between the Q701 and the K712 to confirm that it is not only the pads and the color that changed? Some where suspecting that.


----------



## Evshrug

Oh. The pads are definitely different, but I haven't switched them yet. So many new things to "play" with...


----------



## Evshrug (Sep 27, 2019)

*Headphone Sound Leakage Demo*

Comparison of sound leakage out from a few different headphone styles (open/closed/etc):


----------



## AxelCloris

Hey, we have similar frame styles. I can now come to you easily whenever I have comfort questions!


----------



## Evshrug

axelcloris said:


> Hey, we have similar frame styles. I can now come to you easily whenever I have comfort questions!



Yeah, glad to help however!
Think that's at all related to why we like the creative recon3D? Naaaaah, too much of a stretch.
Wait, did you mean body frame or glasses frame?


----------



## AxelCloris

evshrug said:


> Yeah, glad to help however!
> Think that's at all related to why we like the creative recon3D? Naaaaah, too much of a stretch.
> Wait, did you mean body frame or glasses frame?


 
  
 Glasses frames. Obviously not the exact same style, but similar shape/form. I wear Oakley Calipers.


----------



## Evshrug (Sep 27, 2019)

*DTS headphone X*


DTS Headphone X looks promising, though it has to gain traction just as much as TrueAudio and OpenAL, etcetera. As long as a game has a DTS-HD track on it (like a Dolby 7.1 ProLogic IIz or Stereo track), DTS Headphone X can be remixed from that. I followed a few search links, there's a mobile app called Z+ that lets you demo a few Hans Zimmer movie soundtracks in DTS headphone X (plus the speaker placement demo in the linked vid). Gotta say... It works, but it feels like something Bose would design. Boomy bass and kind of a cave-like sound to the soundtrack compared to stereo, the app may be trying to highlight the difference by making the stereo mix leaner BUT the less apparent detail and overall _thickness_ of the DTS X mix make it sound like an entirely different performance. The overall FR mix of what's more and less prominent changes significantly, though I guess someone could argue that in a large, live venue like a grand concert hall, bass would indeed be more prominent as lower notes sustain their energy further over distance. Perhaps, for a grand, "cinema" experience, the "Man of Steel" DTS headphone X mix also had a "Large Venue" processing effect applied on top of the surround positional effect?


----------



## Evshrug

OOOH, Fegefeuer found a demo of Lichdom, with True Audio!
[Video]http://youtu.be/_6uUtf-lMQQ[/Video]


----------



## SaLX

This particular vid is a bit disingenuous by comparing Trueaudio with plain old stereo - I mean, we know what stereo sounds like
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  "Oh look, we've invented surround sound". They ought to have pitted it against DH for instance. Still though, it looks highly promising. Step forward from all the backward steps that gaming audio has taken in the last 10 years.


----------



## Evshrug

Yep, GenAudio and AMD certainly did not invent surround, BUT this is the first major push for not just surround but 3D surround in years. And to me, it sounds really believable and natural. It's not cavernous, it isn't plagued by reverb, it has height above and below the character, and one thing the stereo vs 3D surround is good for is gauging the SQ hit. Meanwhile, if you have an iOS or android device, download one of the DTS Headphone X apps featuring Hans Zimmer's soundtracks, and tell me you don't think much was changed or SQ wasn't lost switching between stereo and DTS HX.

Does it sound "surroundy" to you? It works really well for me.


----------



## SaLX

> and one thing the stereo vs 3D surround is good for is gauging the SQ hit....


 
 I didn't consider that. Rewatched the clip and you are perfectly correct about the SQ hit: there is practically none. Better HP's I'm sure will point out the flaws but still.
  
 Wish they'd released that app/demo for the PC/Mac.. my phone got crushed last week (think I'll just have to get a Nexus 5 then 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 so no worries).


----------



## Evshrug

Oh good, I started to get worried. No seriously, my job is fixing phones, I got worried!

The other thing about the video comparing TrueAudio to Stereo... Fortunately, you're in a thread where I've cherry-picked good examples of many different forms of surround, so if you look at the first page you can compare for yourself. 

Free to make your own conclusions, that's how I like it


----------



## Skipshrike

I'm glad to see that someone is finally trying to tackle the final frontier of ingame sounds: The vertical. It was very obvious the archer was behind/above. Nice!


----------



## Evshrug

Lol, like something outta Star Trek, eh? There were other companies that did 3D surround first, but developers making use of it withered away since the majority platform was consoles that only could support 5.1 theater surround.

If it starts catching on too, it'll be interesting to see how others compete with it.


----------



## Skipshrike

Well, I remember playing L4D and replaying a scene out of Aliens where we heard stuff right on top of us and didn't see it. Turns out they were a floor above us. Vertical sound is hard.
  
 I'm highly interested in a graphics card doing this. One less thing to install into the vortex of PC drivers Windows has to balance.


----------



## Evshrug

"Game over man, Game OHver!"
"Well, maybe we can gather up the wreckage and make a fire?"

Vertical sound IS hard. Same thing happened to me many times in CoD4, I pop around the corner with guns blazing, only to see nobody on my floor and I get sniped because I revealed my position on radar. Premature shotgunation, but I thought the way you told your story was funnier. Once you get used to surround and start to rely on it, you get confusing moments and realize the limitations of 7.1 or 5.1 surround.


----------



## SaLX

Found a rather good blog here: http://thewelltemperedcomputer.com/index.html. Pity he's not updated it recently, but it's very informative. Allways like learning new things me


----------



## Evshrug

Lol, you posted right after I made an update to the virtual surround post!
Nice source of info, but there was so much stuff that I gravitated to reading the "for fun" stuff like using coat-hangers as interconnect wires and "magic pebbles." It is cool to see someone else making "guides," but what my ideal is that this thread would be different because I invite discussion about my posts (for extra info, corrections, or debates). I don't pretend to know everything, just want stuff to be shared, particularly things that took me a while to figure out.


----------



## atoff

Not sure if you're aware, but the PS4 had an update a few days ago that enabled 7.1 surround.  Sony has also released a new 7.1 headset for the PS4 http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-9020_7-57618236-222/ps4-software-update-adds-support-for-sonys-wireless-7.1-virtual-surround-headsets/.  
  
 I'd prefer to stick with higher quality headphones and something like the DSS, but I'm still a bit curious how it sounds.


----------



## Evshrug

Yeah, we were talking about this on Mad's thread.

The PS4 already supported 5.1 and 7.1 surround through HDMI, or through optical using compression by Dolby Digital Live (used by the DSS or Mixamp) or DTS connect. The PS4 already features AMD's TrueAudio discrete DSP, and I think (Sony's page is light on specs, but a few game magazines confirmed) that the console also has the ability to work with GenAudio's AstoundSound for games that have it encoded (first game to feature AstoundSound will be Thief, we'll see if the PS4 version includes headphone surround as well as the PC version).

I think the firmware update is just so the console can recognize the Sony headset's transmitter dongle. Thanks for bringing it up though! Looks like virtual surround is more widely recognized as a feature now!!


----------



## Stillhart

How do you like the SBX vs the THX?  I was thinking of upgrading my PC to a Z or Omni so I can use optical out to a DAC/Amp.  The Z is one of the cheaper options out there, but you can still get cheap X-Fi's with CMSS-3D as well.  Not sure if it's even worth agonizing over, as I assume Creative got over licensing THX and just ripped it off and changed the name (see Cinemark and IMAX).  They're probably suspiciously similar.
  
 Side note:  know any good DAC/Amp combos in the $200 price range that have optical-in and work well with the Q701?


----------



## MichaelJames99

Do any of you use one of the following to watch movies with?
  
 ~~ ~~ Astro Mixamp Pro (2013 Edition)
 ~~Astro Mixamp Pro
 ~~Astro Mixamp 5.8
 ~~Beyerdynamic Headzone (Base only)
 ~~Creative Sound Blaster Recon3D USB ~
 ~Tritton AX 720 ~~Turtle Beach DSS (old version)
 ~~Victor SU-DH1 A
  
  
 I plan on getting a PS4 here shortly to watch Blu Ray from and I am using the Optical out from my Direct TV Genie system to watch 1080p On demand movies.  My thought is to go from the source thnn out to DAC (optional)  and then out to 2-channel amp (my current is Musical Fidelity X-Can v2 headphone amp..its a tube amp) then out to Grado RS1 (my current Open headphones) I can;t decide on the 5.1 decoder to try out or perhaps another solution I have not thought of to get a virtualized 5.1 system


----------



## Stillhart

I had tried when I first got my Recon3D but I was unimpressed.  I think partially this is because the Q701's I was using aren't great for movies.  I think the other reason is that I wasn't testing any really good source material. I don't know what the refrence movies are for testing good surround these days; any suggestions?


----------



## AxelCloris

stillhart said:


> I had tried when I first got my Recon3D but I was unimpressed.  I think partially this is because the Q701's I was using aren't great for movies.  I think the other reason is that I wasn't testing any really good source material. I don't know what the refrence movies are for testing good surround these days; any suggestions?


 
  
 There's a clip that I love to use when testing movies. It's the same clip I used when I was selling home Hi-Fi and cinemas. There's a sequence in Transformers where the autobots are falling from space down to earth. Play it from a quality Blu Ray source and listen for the finest details. Specifically little things like debris settling, the light crackle of flames as the ground burns, and even the footsteps over broken glass of the people running. You can also use this test to see if the bass overpowers anything else as there is a lot of thumping impacts and heavy steps from the autobots. I tend to stop the clip after Optimus' transformation sequence on screen. And listen to the people yelling and shouting back and forth; that's a good test to see if you'll lose the vocals to louder musical scores or ambient sounds.
  
 Note: This method isn't great for seeing how well headphones handle music playback. But it'll give you a great test for movies, television and sometimes gaming. These are almost 100% man made sound effects and are not true to music at all.


----------



## Stillhart

That's... really good detailed advice, thanks!  Unfortunately, I have this thing -- I loathe Michael Bay and Jerry Bruckheimer.  I can't bring myself to buy the Transformers movie, even to test the surround.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Maybe it's time to finally buy the Pacific Rim blu-ray.


----------



## AxelCloris

stillhart said:


> That's... really good detailed advice, thanks!  Unfortunately, I have this thing -- I loathe Michael Bay and Jerry Bruckheimer.  I can't bring myself to buy the Transformers movie, even to test the surround.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 It's certainly not the end-all be-all in demonstrations, but it was one that could really show off a nice pair of Vienna Acoustics or Martin Logan speakers and prove why they're worth 5x the price of Klipsch towers (non-ICON series). Another great clip for demonstrations/testing is the drum dance from Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon. Pop in the disc, turn on your DSP, hit play, and close your eyes.Keep playing beyond the dance into the assassination attempt.


----------



## Evshrug

SBX was an easy transition from THX. They do sound slightly different, maybe SBX is technically better but that also could be an improvement in DAC for the Z which is the one I tested more extensively side-by-side. I'd be fine with either, though I like the Mac compatibility of the Omni so I went with that.


----------



## Evshrug

Micheal James,
I got my PS4 last night, and I'll be testing it out extensively tonight!

One thing I want to make sure you understand, using one of these processors will be the DAC in your audio chain... none of them just process virtual surround and then pass the digital signal along to a separate DAC. The tube amp you mention sounds like a good one 

I have used the original DSS and Recon3D USB with movies, I also have a Mixamp 5.8 that I only recently acquired so I've only used that with gaming so far. I'm a little less picky about positioning with movies, it's nice but the DSS and Recon3D perform basically at equal quality.

That said, the Recon3D will let you tweak a few more sound characteristics. I actually really like a moderate amount of dialogue boost for movies, sometimes I bump up da bass  , and when I'm tired I like smart volume to compress the range of volume to not be too loud or quiet, but around the same predictable volume... however in gaming I mostly just use dialogue boost and minimize other options that can decrease the soundstage effect.

The DSS has fewer tweak options, just a sub-bass boost. However, you don't have to plug it into a computer to "reprogram" it, just turn a dial on the side of the box. That bass boost is pretty good, it is "aimed" at lower bass frequencies that add atmosphere and just sounds nice, and for gaming you can actually slightly reduce bass by turning the dial all the way down. It may seem like a small thing but I love that it has an on/off switch.

The Mixamp 5.8 has the same Dolby Headphone processing as the DSS, but it also has the added compromise feature of wireless (no wires between TV and couch, but soft soft hiss added in the background).



-----
Pacific Rim from the iTunes Store on an AppleTV (with optical out) sounds amazing!!! Too many great audio moments to count off the top of my head. I also can't wait to rewatch Inception on my new rig.


----------



## Stillhart

axelcloris said:


> It's certainly not the end-all be-all in demonstrations, but it was one that could really show off a nice pair of Vienna Acoustics or Martin Logan speakers and prove why they're worth 5x the price of Klipsch towers (non-ICON series). Another great clip for demonstrations/testing is the drum dance from Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon. Pop in the disc, turn on your DSP, hit play, and close your eyes.Keep playing beyond the dance into the assassination attempt.


 
  
 I'm pretty sure I have that on DVD somewhere.  I'll have to dig it out, thanks!
  
 I have a few great action flicks on Blu-Ray (Inception, Watchmen, Hell Boy 2, Dark Knight, Iron Man, etc) that should probably work well.  This should give me a good excuse to rewatch some.  :-D


----------



## MichaelJames99

EVshrug, thank you for giving me your opinion.  Its great to hear people using these for movies as well.
  
 Is there going to be any difference for me in my specific setup between the processors below?  The Beyerdynamic seems on paper to be closest to a movie intended piece but is obnoxiously expensive.  My Grado RS-1 and amp combo sound great together but I am not experiencing a 3d surround/audio environment.
  
  Have you tried the Astro mixAmp Pro or 2013 editions with movies?
  
 I actually have in my possession a Victor SU-DH1 with power supply.  I am waiting until tomorrow to get the adapter for the digital coax cable to try it out.  I got it probably 10 years ago and I remember a lot of hiss.
  
  
 ~~~~ ~~ Astro Mixamp Pro (2013 Edition)
 ~~Astro Mixamp Pro
 ~~Astro Mixamp 5.8
 ~~Beyerdynamic Headzone (Base only)
 ~~Creative Sound Blaster Recon3D USB ~
 ~Tritton AX 720 ~
 ~Turtle Beach DSS (old version) ~
 ~Victor SU-DH1 A
  
 Just trying to decide which processor to go to.....  I am not opposed to gong to new headphones but wondering if it is worth it for movies.


----------



## MichaelJames99

Let me know what you find out with the PS4 on movies and if anyone has an opinion on my question above regarding processors for movies.  Even if I use the PS4 for Blu Ray, most of my movies are off of Direct TV, so I still need a stand alone processor


----------



## Evshrug

As of now, the PS4 doesn't process virtual surround for headphones on it's own.
I believe I mentioned the advantages of each of the processors I've used, either in reply to you already or in the guide, but if hiss is your main worry then you probably would favor the Recon3D USB, maybe the Turtle Beach DSS. 

Keep in mind you have to set the console to bitstream Dolby, as the SU-DAC you have is the only non-AVR unit I've heard of that can decode DTS, and also keep in mind that the 32 Ohm and sensitive Grados are a little more prone to picking up hiss and provide less dampening than a 62 Ohm and less sensitive AKG or a higher Ohm Beyerdynamic or Sennheiser. I like my dad's Grado SR60 (that I bought for him as a gift), and you definitely will hear a difference with virtual surround processing so I'm not telling you that you should buy another headphone, but the greater soundstage of the other headphones, particularly the AKGs, really work hand-in-hand with virtual surround.


----------



## MichaelJames99

I have learned a lot and thank you.  One point of confusion..... the Direct TV genie client has an Coax Digital Out.  Thru the menu system, you can set Dolby Digital On or Off.  There is no choice for Bitstream or any other combo.
  
 So will this work with my Victor SU-DH1?
 will this output work with all the other units like the Recon 3D?


----------



## Evshrug

Think of Dolby and DTS as a language, like French and Japanese. Not many devices speak DTS. Dolby digital probably should be set to on, the Recon3D only works with regular stereo and Dolby Digital Live input from toslink optical. You may have to find an adapter for coax.


----------



## MichaelJames99

Its interesting.  I have listened to the clips at the beginning of this thread and Mad Lust's demos too.  CMS 3D vs. Dolby Heapdhone vs. THX Tru Studio vs. Razer off Mad Lust's (2nd clip down):
  
 At first I liked Tru Studio.  But then I closed my eyes and I thought that Dolby Headphone sounded the best (Xonar DX, DH2, Cinema, 8 channel 5.1 in Windows).  With the scene where the guy is getting the shoe shine and you pan in a 360 motion.  But then when I listen to the Dolby Headphone examples with the guns firing (2nd clip in this thread, below Ace Venture), I am hearing a hole in the back.. I hear back right and left but not directly in back of me.  DTS Headphone X sounds pretty good.  You hear positional points very well which is the intent of the test tones.
  
 Could it be the implementation of Dolby headphone being used that is confusing me?  Either because its a different version of the hardware being used or the way they wrote the software in the game?


----------



## Evshrug (Sep 27, 2019)

*How-To connect any standard headphone, with chat and surround, to PS4*

_Video demo of various setups, upcoming!!!
*EDIT FOR POSTERITY – The Video Guide Playlist*:_
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL4bc2SQk0h2QhBrVdL-Uxts2XvEo33oqy


Here is what you need: (What I used)

Headphones (K612)
Surround Processor (Turtle Beach DSS)
Mic (Generic Lapel Mic)
Optical Cable (came with DSS)
PC Headset 2 female 3.5mm to mobile phone male 3.5mm adapter
female 3.5mm to 2 male 3.5mm adapter
1/4 to 3.5mm adapter (if necessary)

So it gets a bit complicated, but here goes:

Headphones to 1/4 to 3.5mm adapter (if necessary)

3.5 mm adapter to female 3.5mm to 2 male 3.5mm adapter (Y-Splitter cable)

One male end of the 2 male 3.5mm adapter goes to the DSS
The other male end goes to the headphone female 3.5mm of the PC Headset adapter

DSS goes to PS4 via optical cable
PC Headset adapter goes to pS4 controller

Modmic goes to mic female 3.5mm of the PS4 controller.


----------



## MichaelJames99

Evshrug,
 Will any surround processor work?


----------



## Evshrug

Basically any stand-alone surround processor, yes. PC soundcards, like the Omni, don't work though.

Setup is a little different for a Recon3D USB because you use USB for chat audio, but you just simply follow the same directions for PS3 that came with it and you're set. You don't even need extra adapters, everything you need comes with the Recon3D USB.


----------



## MichaelJames99

What headphones and processor do you like the best on Blu-Ray / movies?  How did the PS4 sound?


----------



## Evshrug

Ps4 is a source and has very little influence on the "sound," other than it is capable of supplying less compressed audio from BluRay (and the associated high-def decoding), the rest is up to the DAC and amp used. I like the Recon3D USB best, though you have to set the PS4 to bitstream Dolby. That's just "One Manns' Opinion" though.


----------



## MichaelJames99

Evshrug, can the Recon3D be powered without using the USB?  I thinking about using this but I won't always have a USB to plug it into.  I don;t do any gaming right now.  Its all for watching movies from DirectTv.  I am going to use it in multiple rooms.
  
 Also, can you use any USB to power it?  For example, my DirectTV receiver has a USB on the back.  So do some of the TV's I have.


----------



## AxelCloris

michaeljames99 said:


> Evshrug, can the Recon3D be powered without using the USB?  I thinking about using this but I won't always have a USB to plug it into.  I don;t do any gaming right now.  Its all for watching movies from DirectTv.  I am going to use it in multiple rooms.
> 
> Also, can you use any USB to power it?  For example, my DirectTV receiver has a USB on the back.  So do some of the TV's I have.


 
  
 It requires the USB for power. As long as the DirecTV receiver can send power over the USB, and I don't see why it wouldn't, you can use that to power the Recon3D USB. You can also use a phone charger to get power for it from any wall socket.


----------



## MichaelJames99

Axel, what surround processor do you use for movies?


----------



## AxelCloris

michaeljames99 said:


> Axel, what surround processor do you use for movies?


 
  
 Currently I don't use anything for movies. When watching them on the TV I use my sound system and on the Mac I currently come straight out of the headphone jack. The Recon3D is used for gaming.


----------



## MichaelJames99

I am a little confused.  Since I am using this only for movies, I see the following products that look interesting:
  
 http://www.soundblaster.com/products/Sound-Blaster-X-Fi-HD.aspx
  
 http://www.soundblaster.com/gaming/soundcards.aspx#xfi
  
 http://us.creative.com/p/sound-blaster/sound-blaster-recon3d
  
  
 Which would be the right fit for me?


----------



## AxelCloris

michaeljames99 said:


> I am a little confused.  Since I am using this only for movies, I see the following products that look interesting:
> 
> http://www.soundblaster.com/products/Sound-Blaster-X-Fi-HD.aspx
> 
> ...


 
  
 I have no experience with the X-Fi or X-Fi HD, so I cannot speak to either product. I'll defer this to Evshrug when he's around.


----------



## Stillhart

If the X-fi will do optical-in, it should work the same as the Recond3D except it uses CMSS-3D instead of THX to process the virtual surround.
  
 Don't get hung up on the details of these for watching movies; perfect positional accuracy is much less important than in games.  Just find the cheapest one that works for what you need to do.


----------



## Evshrug

michaeljames99 said:


> Evshrug, can the Recon3D be powered without using the USB?  I thinking about using this but I won't always have a USB to plug it into.  I don;t do any gaming right now.  Its all for watching movies from DirectTv.  I am going to use it in multiple rooms.
> 
> Also, can you use any USB to power it?  For example, my DirectTV receiver has a USB on the back.  So do some of the TV's I have.



Any kind of USB power will work. I have sometimes had mine hooked up to a battery pack with USB, meant for charging phones while on the go.




stillhart said:


> If the X-fi will do optical-in, it should work the same as the Recond3D except it uses CMSS-3D instead of THX to process the virtual surround.
> 
> Don't get hung up on the details of these for watching movies; perfect positional accuracy is much less important than in games.  Just find the cheapest one that works for what you need to do.



The only problem is Michael James needs an optical input that can decode a surround signal. Those PC soundcards MJ listed cannot do that... I researched it a lot, but there is a licensing issue where Dolby won't let PC inputs process surround. It's an anti-piracy measure, I think. The Recon3D USB is special because it's the only in-production PC soundcard that can ALSO process Dolby surround input (DDL), and I think that's because the PC connection and Optical connection are kept completely separate (you have to actually flip a switch between PC and Playstation/Xbox mode). I don't think it's likely we'll see as versatile a unit as the Recon3D USB for a while after it gets discontinued


----------



## NamelessPFG

stillhart said:


> If the X-fi will do optical-in, it should work the same as the Recond3D except it uses CMSS-3D instead of THX to process the virtual surround.
> 
> Don't get hung up on the details of these for watching movies; perfect positional accuracy is much less important than in games.  Just find the cheapest one that works for what you need to do.



You would think...but the X-Fi's S/PDIF input CANNOT DECODE Dolby Digital or DTS (barring the original XtremeMusic/Platinum/Fatal1ty FPS/Elite Pro PCI card lineup with the Decoder tab). Feeding one of those signals into most sound cards results in silence.

The Recon3D USB's S/PDIF input is not a recording input in PC usage, either. I suspect that Dolby and DTS don't want people recording their encoded audio tracks.

But for movies, you don't really need a sound card to begin with. Both PowerDVD and WinDVD have software Dolby Headphone mixers that work with any audio device; the foobar2000 DH plugin just uses the same DolbyHph.dll they do.


----------



## Stillhart

namelesspfg said:


> You would think...but the X-Fi's S/PDIF input CANNOT DECODE Dolby Digital or DTS (barring the original XtremeMusic/Platinum/Fatal1ty FPS/Elite Pro PCI card lineup with the Decoder tab). Feeding one of those signals into most sound cards results in silence.
> 
> The Recon3D USB's S/PDIF input is not a recording input in PC usage, either. I suspect that Dolby and DTS don't want people recording their encoded audio tracks.
> 
> But for movies, you don't really need a sound card to begin with. Both PowerDVD and WinDVD have software Dolby Headphone mixers that work with any audio device; the foobar2000 DH plugin just uses the same DolbyHph.dll they do.


 
  
 Man, I better take good care of my Recons.  I supect they'll have decent resale value if they're one of few devices that can do what they do.
  
 But like you said, you don't even necessarily need one from the PC.  I wonder if there's an XBMC plugin for DH...


----------



## MichaelJames99

All,
 I am not using a PC in my configuration.  If I did, I could use Razor or some of the others.  What I am doing is going from a Direct TV Genie box into a surround processor, out to a headphone amplifier and then out to my headphones.
  
 I watch 90% of my movies from Direct TV,  I plan on getting a PS4 here this summer.  Then I will watch my Blu Rays thru it.


----------



## Stillhart

michaeljames99 said:


> All,
> I am not using a PC in my configuration.  If I did, I could use Razor or some of the others.  What I am doing is going from a Direct TV Genie box into a surround processor, out to a headphone amplifier and then out to my headphones.
> 
> I watch 90% of my movies from Direct TV,  I plan on getting a PS4 here this summer.  Then I will watch my Blu Rays thru it.


 
 Well based on what the experts have been saying, *assuming your DTV box can output Dolby surround over optical*, the Recon3D USB might be your only choice.  I'm sure they'll pipe in to correct me again if I'm wrong.  (To be clear, I'm all for being educated!)


----------



## NamelessPFG

stillhart said:


> Man, I better take good care of my Recons.  I supect they'll have decent resale value if they're one of few devices that can do what they do.
> 
> But like you said, you don't even necessarily need one from the PC.  I wonder if there's an XBMC plugin for DH...


 
  
 For the record, the PCIe Recon3D sound cards can't do it either.
  
 You have to realize that the Recon3D USB is more of an Astro Mixamp or Turtle Beach Ear Force DSS-style device meant for *console* gaming, except it's also one with PC drivers that makes it a better fit than those two as a USB audio device for PC gaming, sort of a bridge between two worlds, so to speak.
  
 My solution was simply to have separate devices for PC gaming and console gaming, but that may not work out for everyone.


----------



## Evshrug

michaeljames99 said:


> All,
> I am not using a PC in my configuration.  If I did, I could use Razor or some of the others.  What I am doing is going from a Direct TV Genie box into a surround processor, out to a headphone amplifier and then out to my headphones.
> 
> I watch 90% of my movies from Direct TV,  I plan on getting a PS4 here this summer.  Then I will watch my Blu Rays thru it.



Already gave my recommendation, a few times. Thanks for not continuing to PM me about it.


----------



## MichaelJames99

Thanks everyone.   I hope this works.. The Genie box is Coaxial Digital output only....  So I purchased a Coax Digital to Toslink converter and the REcon 3D off Amazon.  I assume there are no hardware differences between old REcon3D and new REcon3d's...Just firmware that needs upgraded.  I also assume this converter will work.
  
 http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0002J2MV4/ref=pe_385040_30332200_pe_309540_26725410_item
 http://www.amazon.com/dp/B005FKT70O/ref=pe_385040_30332200_pe_309540_26725410_item


----------



## MichaelJames99

So I got the Recon3D today:
 The right and left channels are reversed?  At least on the test movie thru the control panel.  Have not got to listen to a source yet.
 The volume control doesn't work on the control panel.
  
 Any ideas here?


----------



## MichaelJames99

I figured out part of this, my right and left were reversed going into my amp.
 The volume control still does not work.
  
 Also, question... if I make changes thru the PC interface..for example moving up the Surround levels, or increasing the bass level etc..does it write the changes directly to the Recon3D?  Or does it save it to the PC only?  I plan on using this without the PC using a cell phone adapter plug to USB to power it.  I hope the changes are saved to the unit itself


----------



## Evshrug

The THX panel settings are "saved" for non-PC mode when you go to the advanced tab and "export" them to the device. I don't think the equalizer settings can be saved for non-PC use, however.

Volume works for me when I press the + and - buttons on the Recon3D USB.


----------



## Stillhart

evshrug said:


> The THX panel settings are "saved" for non-PC mode when you go to the advanced tab and "export" them to the device. I don't think the equalizer settings can be saved for non-PC use, however.


 
  
 Really?  You mean I've been playing at 60% surround this whole time?  Man, I wonder how it's going to sound cranked up to 100% (and then saved)!


----------



## Evshrug

Lol!


----------



## Stillhart

evshrug said:


> Lol!


 
  
 100% surround + bass mod + Neewer clip on =


----------



## MichaelJames99

I find there is a lack of deeper bass.....  what have you done to compensate?  My headphones go down to 12 hz.
 What are you setting the Surround setting to?  I find a lack of rear channels on movies..
 Is there a way to tell it to use 7.1 vs. 5.1?  All I see is a selection for headphones and speakers.
 What other trickery should I be aware of?


----------



## Evshrug

Your audio source must be set to output 5.1 surround. If the content (such as a movie) has 7.1 surround, that will be coded into the 5.1 stream.

Just because a headphone's specs list that it reaches down to 12 hz (or lower) doesn't mean you'll hear it or say anything about what that bass will sound like. Unfortunately, most of the specs listed on headphones (except sensitivity and impedance, for the purpose of amping requirements) are throwaway items that are more marketing than practical. You may have headphones that don't make rumbly bass, or the amp doesn't have enough reserve power to drive the bass well. You might also have some improvement by increasing the bass booster slider in THX settings, I chose a low hz crossover point so the bass boost would be mostly sub bass and turned it up a little with good results, you might try that and export the settings to save it to the non-PC modes. You can also experiment with the surround slider bar.


----------



## Evshrug

stillhart said:


> 100% surround + bass mod + Neewer clip on = :atsmile:




I really like my Neewer clip-ons! But, since moving, I can't find them... Oh well, time to spend $5 for a few more I guess 

You might want to play with the bass settings on the Recon3D too... you can use the crossover point to really target a software bass boost, which can be nice in moderation!


----------



## Stillhart

evshrug said:


> I really like my Neewer clip-ons! But, since moving, I can't find them... Oh well, time to spend $5 for a few more I guess
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 So far, I'm not feeling like I need any more bass boost after the mod.  Is that placebo effect?  Someone in the Q701 thread just posted a comparison frequency response chart for the can before and after the mod.  I don't really know how to read those though...
  
 Anyhow, I love that it's there.  I don't know if I'll ever use it or not.  I may be getting a C5 amp to go with it, which has a hardware bass boost.  I hear hardware is better?


----------



## MichaelJames99

what mod are you referring to?


----------



## Stillhart

michaeljames99 said:


> what mod are you referring to?


 
  
 It's a mod for the AKG Q701 headphones where you remove a small sticker from the back of the drivers and it icnreases the bass.


----------



## MichaelJames99

I got everything working now.  To increase the volume, you have to tap the volume up.. you can't just hold it down to increase it.
 I was getting some cut out using the coaxial to optical converter.  I think it might have been the cable.  It did not say 75 ohm on it but had a yellow tip.  Will try that tonight.  I also had to turn the headphone amp way down.  At 50% volume it was too much volume for my Grado RS-1.  I am not getting a ton of rear channel simulation.  I have surround up to 100%.  Some of this may be the headphones too.  The Grado are probably not the right ones for movies.
  
 Overall, its a pretty good solution for $60 on Amazon.  The only problem is I need to set the volume at the beginning of the movie and then leave it, unless I want to get up and adjust the volume.  The optical connector is way too short.  And it looks like its proprietary connector end.  Any suggestions on this? 
  
 How about headphones?  Ideally headphones that can get a little sweaty as I watch (I watch movies while I am on the elliptical)


----------



## Evshrug

*We want headphone surround... What's the best way to get it?*

I have mentioned a few times in this blog some speculations about the future of headphone surround, including soundcards, external processors, or the hope that it could be built-in to the consoles themselves. I have played a few games where the game developer created their own HRTF headphones around processing, but I have yet to see anyone use the built-in hardware on the new consoles like TrueAudio on the PlayStation 4. I think that headphones around can really take off if the industry pursues one of two different possibilities: and upgraded all-in-one device like SoundBlaster X7, or an external dongle that just does DSP processing and then outputs the sound digitaly to any standard stereo DAC.

I just found the first review on the X7 here on PC world, basically it's a do-all everything-is-included machine that is pretty much the first upgrade beyond what we have first seen in first GEN devices with the Astro Mixamp and the turtle beach DSS and creative's recon3D USB. Some of the benefits of this method include great hardware, less cable mess, a price benefit of bundling components together, and for the manufacturer they get to make a little bit more money on each unit sold. Creative specifically is wanting to say they are more than just a software company, in fact they were mainly a hardware company in the past with their soundcards, and this way they have a better control over the final experience, because they made both the software and the hardware to work together and can use features from other devices in their product lineup ecosystem. Some of the cons of this method, however, are that a person might spend more money then they had wanted just to get the processing, you don't get to customize the quality level of each component (though the X7 can swap op-amps), and perhaps they just don't like the look of it or the size of it.

The other option, which hasn't really been explored yet, would be kind of like Microsoft: selling a device that just does headphone processing and then outputs it through optical... This will be more like a software product except it has a little bit of hardware to keep the DSP proprietary, but obviously there's less hardware money for the manufacture this way. The benefit of this method would be that such a product could be so cheap as to become a ubiquitous product and available to everyone, and then audiophiles can connect any optical DAC they want to make it sound as good as they want to spend, and a company that did this would not have to spend the overhead and money on researching great amplifiers and DACs. Who knows, the profit margins may even be higher. The cons of this product plan would be the cable and component setup mess, that it would cannibalize some sales from "all-in-one" audio solutions from some manufacturers, and a manufacturer would have less control over how good the final audio experience ends up being. Now, to that last point, I do feel that the current first GEN as I called it of devices don't have great amplifiers built into them, and great amplifiers made a huge difference to me when I wanted to actually hear depth in the surround soundstage with my headphones.

Personally, after hearing the DAC and amps included within gear I have reviewed and looked at in the past, I thought that they were pretty good, and the DACs were definitely serviceable, but the amplifiers pretty much all would've benefited from an upgrade. I was looking for a SoundBlaster Omni with an optical output, pretty much like what I described in the dongle option. The X7 actually does have an optical output, so I could do my original plan of connecting the processor to my Schiit Bifrost Uber DAC and my tube amp, but as it turns out, the X7 has a lot of other bonus great features... I pretty much can make use of all of them and replace a lot of separate gear in my setup. I have a pair of passive speakers, and I recently acquired of stacks headphone your speakers that requires speaker tabs to do power as well, my iPod classic has AAC and High-res files of all my music yet I've never had a DAC that could be wired to an iPod before, and I have a lot of Bluetooth smartdevices with no Bluetooth speaker of my own. So this actually fits me perfectly but I think the overall product is a niche that will have parts that are not necessary for every single person. In my situation, I would choose an X7 over a dongle at this point, now that I see what I can get, but I think that if a dongle came out it would definitely change the landscape of what gear is offered. I think that if a dongle DSP were released, there would still be a market and a demand for devices that already had DSP, DAC, amp, and controls all integrated in one unit for convenience sake, but I also know that there's plenty of us audiophiles are just gear junkies that would like to connect our own gear that may be from a different manufacturer.

Please comment, what do you think is the future of headphone surround?


----------



## conquerator2

There's no denying the X7 is the best DSP console compatible device we've seen so far. The only missed opportunities are the lack of any HDMI ports and no DTS support. As for the rest, the DAC is great, the amp is great, the ability to power speakers is also nice. Considering the components, I think the $400 asking price is adequate. DSP-less DAC/amp units of similar quality easily go for that and more.
 Now would a DSP-only unit be useful? Sure! It could be cheap and as someone who already owns a very good DAC and amp, I'd be set.
 That said, the X7 is still nice to have, thanks to its other features, and possibly offering different, unique audio experiences [such as using only the X7's 1794 DAC along with an external amp, etc.]
 The only persinal downside for me then is only the lack of DTS support.
 The Recon3D USB is a great little unit already, but it is still a bit hissy and it pales in comparison with the X7 still. The X7 should be a rather viable upgrade for anyone who's serious about gaming and audio.
 I am looking forward to the X7 and I hope it will set a standard for others to follow, or even, dare I say, something to further improve upon


----------



## Stillhart

All-in-one devices are generally not preferred by people with more than a cursory knowledge of the components.  While they can offer great value for the money, they have a few major drawbacks.  Notably:
  

Failure of any one piece, means everything has to be replaced.  (All-in-one router/wireless access point/modem has a bad WAP?  Sucks to be you.)
It's cost-prohibitive to upgrade any one part.  (Want to hear that tube amp sound?  Gonna need new everything!)
It can, at times, be more expensive than necessary simply because it includes bits that aren't useful to everyone all the time.  (Don't care about bluetooth on the X7?  You still gotta pay for it!)
  
 For the "average" consumer, an all-in-one device tends to be "good enough".  See the Astro A50 for a perfect example.  For many others, the freedom to pick and choose individual parts of the chain is really important.  Not only does it give you the freedom to customize your experience, but it can also save you money if you're smart about your choices.
  
 For all-in-one to be a viable solution, you need to have a variety of choice.  That variety is not feasible for any one company; it's too much of a risk.  So multiple companies would need to make similar products that aren't in direct competition because they're slightly different and targeted towards different folks.  As an example, we know that Astro has no intention of making another wireless Mixamp.  That leaves a gaping hole in the market that's ripe for exploitation.  Plenty of companies could jump in and not be in direct competition with the (presumed) market-leader.
  
 Unfortunately, there just aren't enough companies out there to make a good variety of devices.  Not enough to make the all-in-one solution be the one-and-only choice for consumers.  Given that, I think the dongle solution is really the way for new entrants to make a splash in the market.  As you said, it's a potentially low-cost device since the hardware will be minimal.  This keeps the risk low and the barrier to entry low.
  
 The other factor right now is that the market (the people reading this right now) is filled with folks who ARE knowledgable and picky about their devices.  Give us a way to build our own audio chain at whatever level of quality we want, and I think we'll embrace it enthusiastically.  There are many people who will just go buy an A50.  Everyone else does a quick Google search for "best gaming headset" and gets MLE's guide.  Those people are the target audience for both of these device options.  I strongly suspect that all-in-one will be the backup solution:  "if you are a person with these specific needs, just get the XXX, otherwise build your own chain using the YYY and the E17 (etc)."
  
 Now a question back at you:  what would be needed out of one of these devices to make it work with the Xbox One (or PS4 without using USB mic)?  USB power, optical input and optical output will get your audio to your DAC/Amp effectively.  But how do you chat and/or balance chat audio?


----------



## Stillhart

conquerator2 said:


> There's no denying the X7 is the best DSP console compatible device we've seen so far. The only missed opportunities are the lack of any HDMI ports and no DTS support. As for the rest, the DAC is great, the amp is great, the ability to power speakers is also nice. Considering the components, I think the $400 asking price is adequate. DSP-less DAC/amp units of similar quality easily go for that and more.
> Now would a DSP-only unit be useful? Sure! It could be cheap and as someone who already owns a very good DAC and amp, I'd be set.
> That said, the X7 is still nice to have, thanks to its other features, and possibly offering different, unique audio experiences [such as using only the X7's 1794 DAC along with an external amp, etc.]
> The only persinal downside for me then is only the lack of DTS support.
> ...


 
  
 I am still scratching my head over why people are so excited by the X7.  Does it have nice components?  You bet!  Plenty of connectivity?  Sure!  Do I need components that nice for gaming or all that connectivity?  No, not at all.  That makes it a really poor value for me.  Give me a Mixamp-type device with optical out for $100 and a Schiit Stack and I'd save $100 and have everything I need.  Considering that Mixamp-type device really doesn't need to cost $100 with no DAC and no Amp, I'll probably be saving even more.
  
 Too bad one doesn't exist.  It sucks that I'm stuck between ****ty Mixamp/Recon sound or overpriced X7 sound.  I'm glad that there is more out there and I hope the X7 at least does moderately well to show the demand for such devices, but I think the X7 itself is just very...niche.  Worse, it's for a niche (people who need tons of connectivity) of an already small niche (gamers who want surround and good sound).


----------



## Evshrug

*Conq2,*
Did you hear a Mixamp? Even more hissy than a Recon3D! I didn't test the Recon3D side-by-side with the DSS, but I overall feel comfortable saying the Recon3D had the least hiss of the first-gen devices for consoles... but still, room for improvement, and the DSS and Mixamp 5.8 definitely have more gain (max volume).
I also already have a pretty high-end DAC (not a $1,000,000 Light Harmonic DaVinci DAC, but still), and a tube amp that definitely will not be going anywhere, and technically I can use both of these with the X7... But I won't feel like I "have" to.


*Stillhart,*
I hear you. And I agree, the opening is still there for even a new company to come in and make a big splash with a DSP dongle, particularly one with HDMI and USB "universal" input and a digital output. What's ironic is that the X7 is the first console-compatible headphone DSP that will be able to pass the processed stereo result through optical... A very expensive DSP "dongle" but it's here nonetheless. So technically I COULD use it with my DAC and Amp separates, and it does have analogue line-outs if I want to use the X7 for the whole audio chain up until the amp part and connect my tube amp to the RCAs.

As for your question, it'll really have to wait till we get the product in-hand. I sort of side-mentioned to Creative's marketing person Susie that I can't tell how to do chat with an XBOX One, but she has yet to reply since November 19th. I can't imagine that a wire from controller to X7 would be all that practical (and that's Microsoft's design limitation for chat audio), but maybe they'll include a "combiner extension cable" like the ribbon cable that came with the Recon3D USB. Maybe there should be a petition for Microsoft to include Bluetooth chat audio support, so that the X7 could be recognized as a "headset" and thus be able to control any mixing in-software. I think this would easily be the most practical chat solution, all software/firmware upgrades... Does the Xbox One even support Bluetooth handsfree devices like the Xbox 360?

On the bright side, at least there is attention and a growing market. Demands and growth are sometimes a "chicken and the egg" scenario, headphone audio is growing in popularity but some gamers/movie watches may not realize they want headphone surround until a practical device and a really good, clear marketing campaign shows it to them. Again I see parallels to Apple/Microsoft vs IBM and the beginning of computers... I didn't know about virtual surround until I found Mad's thread, I was just searching for a way to connect headphones to my console for some privacy, and when you see marketing for Turtle Beach, Creative, Astro, etc, they seem to advertise that it's a headphone connection solution BUT emphasize the hardware features while just mentioning "oh and we checked the box for headphone surround too, as one more feature." I can easily skip a processor and just hook an optical DAC straight to my PS4, for gaming/movie devices they OUGHT to emphasize their competitive advantage in processing. So yeah, the X7 is a sign that gaming audio is getting attention, but still a product focusing purely on THE competitive advantage ought to change the way consumers think about multimedia audio. Someone should start a Dolby Headphone and DTS-X processor kickstarter.


----------



## conquerator2

stillhart said:


> I am still scratching my head over why people are so excited by the X7.  Does it have nice components?  You bet!  Plenty of connectivity?  Sure!  Do I need components that nice for gaming or all that connectivity?  No, not at all.  That makes it a really poor value for me.  Give me a Mixamp-type device with optical out for $100 and a Schiit Stack and I'd save $100 and have everything I need.  Considering that Mixamp-type device really doesn't need to cost $100 with no DAC and no Amp, I'll probably be saving even more.
> 
> Too bad one doesn't exist.  It sucks that I'm stuck between ****ty Mixamp/Recon sound or overpriced X7 sound.  I'm glad that there is more out there and I hope the X7 at least does moderately well to show the demand for such devices, but I think the X7 itself is just very...niche.  Worse, it's for a niche (people who need tons of connectivity) of an already small niche (gamers who want surround and good sound).


 
 I'll probably utilize just a few of the X7's abilities. I currently own no decent passive speakers, I have no interest in bluetooth connectivity or USB-hosting for Android/Apple devices. Nonetheless, the PCM1794 is a great DAC by all means, and expensive. the TPA6120 is an acclaimed and widely used component too. 
 Of course, there's no denying that the Magni/Modi Schiit stack is one, if not the best value currently out there.
 Still, I wouldn't go as far as to call the X7 overpriced. 400$ is certainly not cheap, but it does a lot of things and has the components to back it up IMO.
 The Audio-gd entry-level units for example are great devices, costing around 300$ to 400$ [NFB15 and NFB11 after PP and postage].
 They're feature packed audiophile products, considered great devices by many, just like the Schiit stack is.
 None of those devices have a DSP inside, or Bluetooth, or NFC...
 All this adds to the cost, undeniably. But in theory, the X7 can replace those devices, adding DSP capabilities to the mix.
 The Mixamp is 150$ + Schiit stack is 200$+, A-gd 300$+.
 So again, in theory, the X7 is a good value IMO, as should it hold up in practice too, it can be a device that would replace those units for us that already own them, or would normally have to won them along with a Mixamp to get us covered.
 In conclusion, I am not arguing that the X7 is the jack-of-all-trades device, but I think considering what it does and what it packs, it is not overpriced.
 Would a 50$ DSP-only device be nice? Sure! I'd buy that instead.
 But with the X7, I think Creative could have done much worse and other than the lack of DTS, at least from me, it gets good scores for ticking all the right marks, at a price that is not prohibitively expensive [the Headzone.... the Smith Realiser, anything 'premium' TB,... most gaming brands are just not a good deal, are they?]


----------



## conquerator2

evshrug said:


> *Conq2,*
> *Did you hear a Mixamp? Even more hissy than a Recon3D! I didn't test the Recon3D side-by-side with the DSS, but I overall feel comfortable saying the Recon3D had the least hiss of the first-gen devices for consoles... but still, room for improvement,* and the DSS and Mixamp 5.8 definitely have more gain (max volume).
> *I also already have a pretty high-end DAC (not a $1,000,000 Light Harmonic DaVinci DAC, but still), and a tube amp that definitely will not be going anywhere, and technically I can use both of these with the X7... But I won't feel like I "have" to.*
> 
> ...


 
 I have the TB transmitter DSP station... I imagine if the Mixamp is anything like that... That thing is just hissy - nothing else to add. Uber hissy compared to the Recon! The rest quoted for truth and what I've been saying. The X7 gives us choices on how to approach our gaming chain, while packing nice goodies inside. I reckon I'll really like the 1794 DAC [if it is anything like the 1793, which is supposedly detailed yet musical] and couple that with the SA31SE to make my gamey sessions that much better. I'll be sure to try them and compare [The NFB7 should not be disregarded for gaming, I guess], but I think I'll stick with this.
  
 I also agree that there's certainly room for a DSP standalone device, but I'd think that FiiO would be our only hope for such a device, if you disregard the X7, which as you said does that too... So, there'll be experimenting time!


----------



## Stillhart

conquerator2 said:


> I'll probably utilize just a few of the X7's abilities. I currently own no decent passive speakers, I have no interest in bluetooth connectivity or USB-hosting for Android/Apple devices. Nonetheless, the PCM1794 is a great DAC by all means, and expensive. the TPA6120 is an acclaimed and widely used component too.
> Of course, there's no denying that the Magni/Modi Schiit stack is one, if not the best value currently out there.
> Still, I wouldn't go as far as to call the X7 overpriced. 400$ is certainly not cheap, but it does a lot of things and has the components to back it up IMO.
> The Audio-gd entry-level units for example are great devices, costing around 300$ to 400$ [NFB15 and NFB11 after PP and postage].
> ...


 
  
 I see what you're saying but I have a problem with it because I would never use my $300+ NFB-15 for console gaming.  It's overkill.  That's why I think the X7 is overpriced.  It provides a lot of features that I don't want, but have to pay for.
  
 Here's an analogy:  when my wife and I bought our last car, we wanted to get a Satnav/GPS built in.  However, the ONLY option provided that included the GPS was $4000 because it also included all leather, a sunroof, etc.  These were things I didn't want and shouldn't have to pay for, so I ended up not getting GPS in the car (and I'm still annoyed about it).  Is leather and a sunroof worth the price?  Maybe.  Is it something some people want?  Sure.  But not me.  I refuse to pay $4k for a few-hundred dollars in relative value.
  
 I think of the X7 in the same way.  It has some great specs and lots of bells and whistles.  But if I just want a DSP with optical out, it's super overpriced.


----------



## conquerator2

stillhart said:


> *I see what you're saying but I have a problem with it because I would never use my $300+ NFB-15 for console gaming.  It's overkill.  That's why I think the X7 is overpriced.  It provides a lot of features that I don't want, but have to pay for.*
> 
> Here's an analogy:  when my wife and I bought our last car, we wanted to get a Satnav/GPS built in.  However, the ONLY option provided that included the GPS was $4000 because it also included all leather, a sunroof, etc.  These were things I didn't want and shouldn't have to pay for, so I ended up not getting GPS in the car (and I'm still annoyed about it).  Is leather and a sunroof worth the price?  Maybe.  Is it something some people want?  Sure.  But not me.  I refuse to pay $4k for a few-hundred dollars in relative value.
> 
> *I think of the X7 in the same way.  It has some great specs and lots of bells and whistles.  But if I just want a DSP with optical out, it's super overpriced. *


 
 I see your point [and the analogy about the car is a nice touch :}].
 I would never consider using just the Mixamp alone, because my headphones are relatively hard to drive [the K240, the HE-560 and possibly the K7XX 'wink' 'wink'] and there're tangible benefits [IMO] related to more power [if not cleaner power] for these.
 If you only want a digital DSP with a toslink out [a scenario that I'd likewise welcome and perhaps even prefer] then certainly the X7 is not a good value for you, while I, intending to use at least the DAC part of it, think it is a good device.
 It is certainly a better value deal than the shoddy mixamp/TB... Again, devices perfectly adequate for some, less so for others/us audiophiles.
 Again, that's speaking off theory. I find the sound  coming from the Recon-SA31SE decent, but certainly inferior to the NFB7-SA31SE. I HOPE the X7 or X7-SA31SE or X7-NFB7-SA31SE brings about tangible differences, as I hope it should.
 Again, I have no problems with convenience, because all my audio devices [DSP,amp, DAC, console, monitor] are stacked in the same place, next to each other, in the same room, so using them all at once/in tandem is not an issue for me. [I still game on a monitor, even though a TV is right next to it. Preference :]] I realize not everyone has the benefit of having things set up like this, in the same roon, on the same table.
 So, yeah. I definitely understand your reasons. The X7 is an overpriced DSP but a reasonably priced DAC/amp/DSP/multi-device if used that way


----------



## Evshrug

conquerator2 said:


> I have the TB transmitter DSP station... I imagine if the Mixamp is anything like that... That thing is just hissy - nothing else to add. Uber hissy compared to the Recon! The rest quoted for truth and what I've been saying. The X7 gives us choices on how to approach our gaming chain, while packing nice goodies inside. I reckon I'll really like the 1794 DAC [if it is anything like the 1793, which is supposedly detailed yet musical] and couple that with the SA31SE to make my gamey sessions that much better. I'll be sure to try them and compare [The NFB7 should not be disregarded for gaming, I guess], but I think I'll stick with this.
> 
> I also agree that there's certainly room for a DSP standalone device, but I'd think that FiiO would be our only hope for such a device, if you disregard the X7, which as you said does that too... So, there'll be experimenting time!



Thanks for backing me up!
Have you tried rolling opamps before? And, please help add to my info, is the Texas Instruments "amp" chip that the X7 shares with the FiiO E09k one of the swappable opamps, or are only buffers swappable? I assume the opamps work the same here as they did on the ZxR (which I haven't used).

Honestly I would be surprised to see FiiO enter the DSP business, as their current core competency is DAC and Amp hardware. They "could" license DSP algorithms from dolby and DTS, I just would expect a new company to try it first. I wonder if a "DSP Dongle" separate hasn't existed before because the current companies are afraid they wouldn't make money off of it or it would hurt the sales of their other devices. If the latter (and I could see it as that), I think that's a foolish stance because just because a company won't add it among their current lineup doesn't mean another company can't. I agree with Stillhart that the X7 by itself won't be a starting point for new audiophiles and grow the market segment, BUT it also does bring attention to the market segment and will get other companies thinking (as they always should) how they might compete.

Loading up a DAP, like my iPod Classic, with my full library/high-res files and being able to use a high-quality external DAC appeals to me for scenarios where the X7 may not be in the same place as a PC, I've always found the built-in music players of game consoles to react wonky when connected to a DAP and I had considered a NuForce iDo in the past (~$120-$100) for that purpose. So IF someday I separate my computer room and console, I'll still have my library even in the wifi dead-zone basement. I dunno, the only X7 feature I couldn't immediately take advantage of in my situation is NFC pairing, which is hella cheap anyway.


----------



## RRod

Here are my thoughts from the other thread.
  
 Honestly, though, we really shouldn't need anything other than a nice stereo DAC/amp for headphone surround. There is already a free library, on the PC side at least, that can do a pretty good job with HRTF: OpenAL. And it already supports a set of 51 different HRIRs. What the gaming world is missing are standards: standards for environmental processing (reverb, echo, occlusion, etc.) and standards for headphone delivery (HRTF). Instead there's this kind of propriety mix of stuff. Note that even OpenAL has proprietary HRTF software for Windows that sound even better than the built-in stuff.
  
 You really only need hardware for something like turning movies that are pre-encoded in DD/DTS into virtual surround for headphones. Software HRTFs for computer/console games can bypass the 5.1->headphone conversion entirely and apply HRTFs from the game data itself. What we need are some standards for this application, and a little box to handle the movies.


----------



## Evshrug

OpenAL and I orovements to that would be ideal... but developers have to include it in the game's resource libraries. Yes, it's free, but no, nobody has supported it for a few years (very sadly). It's great to know that mankind has figured out the technology, but consumers need to demand it, the demand has to grow till it's ubiquitous as HD video, or else the true 3D surround will probably not come back.


----------



## RRod

evshrug said:


> OpenAL and I orovements to that would be ideal... but developers have to include it in the game's resource libraries. Yes, it's free, but no, nobody has supported it for a few years (very sadly). It's great to know that mankind has figured out the technology, but consumers need to demand it, the demand has to grow till it's ubiquitous as HD video, or else the true 3D surround will probably not come back.


 
  
 Steam support for Linux and SteamOS itself might change the game a bit by pushing open-source. I just got Borderlands 2 on Steam (Ubuntu 14.04), and one of the first things I noticed was that annoying robot sounded like he was behind me when I turned away from him; sure enough I looked at the loaded libraries and saw libopenal. OpenAL doesn't even have to be the solution, it can be something entirely new, but ubiquity would probably mean that whatever comes out will need to be free or at least have a cheap license.


----------



## Army-Firedawg

Wish i found this thread sooner my friend, tis an interesting read. I haven't made it even some of the way through all the posts yet (starting from page 1 onwards) but has anyone talked about how having a really good headphone that has a magnificent soundstage. I'll use the ever talked about beyerdynamics and their huge soundstage i.e. Using these (T70p model) they out perform my Turtle Beach PX5's in 360 accuracy and detail. And that's just plugged straight into the ps4 controller. Sonfor those not wanting to spend a lot of money on many different parts nor want cords laying everywhere on the floor this route can ampily (spelling) suffice.


----------



## Evshrug

Oh, glad it was interesting 
I tried making the first post a sort of "topic table of contents" which you can click the links to go right to my topic post, and so far people have generally responded to the newest "topic" so it's sectioned nicely.

The T70p are portable on-ears, right? I think I said generally that headphones with the qualities of detail, a bit of mid/treble tilt, imaging, and instrument separation will usually enhance the virtual surround effect... So in a broader sense it was covered. I leave specific headphone reviews up to Mad and his incredible headphone binges... Though he's settled down in the past 6 months.

I personally found the Beyer DT880 to have great imaging and it sounded very clean, but top-of-the-line AKGs simply had more soundstage and a holographic sense that "something is -there-" Other headphones come close but have other strengths, I just personally loved mine.

I personally value the ability to describe what you mean more than spelling ability... Btw it's spelt "amply," but I totally got what you meant.

I think I'll review the Sound Blaster Omni within the next two weeks, but by then I'll have a special delivery!


----------



## conquerator2

evshrug said:


> Oh, glad it was interesting
> I tried making the first post a sort of "topic table of contents" which you can click the links to go right to my topic post, and so far people have generally responded to the newest "topic" so it's sectioned nicely.
> 
> The T70p are portable on-ears, right? I think I said generally that headphones with the qualities of detail, a bit of mid/treble tilt, imaging, and instrument separation will usually enhance the virtual surround effect... So in a broader sense it was covered. I leave specific headphone reviews up to Mad and his incredible headphone binges... Though he's settled down in the past 6 months.
> ...




I should probably pre-order


----------



## conquerator2

conquerator2 said:


> I should probably pre-order


 
 The X7 is available for pre-order in EU for 329 Pounds or 399 Euros, with the same release date [12/14/14].
 I should get mine by Christmas if I manage to pre-order soon


----------



## martin vegas

conquerator2 said:


> The X7 is available for pre-order in EU for 329 Pounds or 399 Euros, with the same release date [12/14/14].
> I should get mine by Christmas if I manage to pre-order soon


 

 Where is it available? I haven't seen it anywhere in the uk yet!


----------



## Stillhart

martin vegas said:


> Where is it available? I haven't seen it anywhere in the uk yet!


 
 I think they ordered directly from Creative.


----------



## conquerator2

stillhart said:


> I think they ordered directly from Creative.




Yup.
Not yet but I guess that's where I'll order from 
There are Creative websites for UK/EU, since the US one does not ship outside.


----------



## martin vegas

conquerator2 said:


> Yup.
> Not yet but I guess that's where I'll order from
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I can wait 'til after Christmas..i am getting a new asus monitor for my ps4 for Christmas the syncmaster bleaches the schiit out of games..when I get my X7 I will get the Q701, if I wait I will know what it sounds like with different headphones!


----------



## conquerator2

martin vegas said:


> I can wait 'til after Christmas..i am getting a new asus monitor for my ps4 for Christmas the syncmaster bleaches the schiit out of games..when I get my X7 I will get the Q701, if I wait I will know what it sounds like with different headphones!




Yeah, My current IPS Eizo FS2333 is night and day compared to my previous Syncmaster...
There's also 5 years warranty by Eizo, which doesn't hurt


----------



## martin vegas

conquerator2 said:


> Yeah, My current IPS Eizo FS2333 is night and day compared to my previous Syncmaster...
> There's also 5 years warranty by Eizo, which doesn't hurt


 

 I am getting a Asus monitor, it's the only one I can get in my local store were I can go in and pay..i have had a Trojan horse and don't put any bank details on my pc anymore!


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!


----------



## conquerator2

martin vegas said:


> I am getting a Asus monitor, it's the only one I can get in my local store were I can go in and pay..i have had a Trojan horse and don't put any bank details on my pc anymore!




Thats still an edge lit LED though... Either way, I hope you like it


----------



## conquerator2

conquerator2 said:


> Thats still an edge lit LED though... Either way, I hope you like it




Asus makes nice IPS too 
Quite cheap too, I believe.


----------



## Fegefeuer

I'd rather get the Eizo Foris FS2434-BK


----------



## martin vegas

fegefeuer said:


> I'd rather get the Eizo Foris FS2434-BK


 

 I dj in shibuya Tokyo every now and then and in the electronic shops they have loads of monitors with people playing games on them, i just wish it was like that in the uk!


----------



## Evshrug

That's awesome! I'd love to see more public gaming events... I know they exist everywhere, but I feel that, in the US, gaming is mostly an insular hobby unless you go to tournaments or live in Silicon Valley. In that sense I miss the death of arcades, we have a Dave and Buster's nearby but their newest games are iOS games on a big screen... Yup, gonna toss the quarters into a Temple Run with a glitchy ball controller, cut the rope, some ice climber-esque game, etc.

My monitor is an Asus VN248, it's an IPS display which has been doing well enough for dual-duty between PC and PS4 (Xbox is on the basement TV, doesn't get much internet love anymore).


----------



## Evshrug

X7 has arrived!


Just looking across my desk, some of us here on HeadFi might see a cornucopia of audio gear, wires, and adapters, but even among audiophiles and most regular folks will just see a big 'ol mess...


I've got an audio chain stack, different cable lengths, power cables, a few mics, tubes (more in a box down below the desk), screwdrivers-allenwrench-multimeter to properly adjust the tube amp, batteries, adapters, splitters, joiners, a Bluetooth keyboard (lol)... and I feel comfortably happy that a lot of it will be consolidated in one unit.

I'll be playing with it and testing, getting some sort of setup review and sound impressions written and posted by the end of Thursday, and the plan is to eventually post a playlist on YouTube of different headphone gaming setups, but for now... I'm just gonna listen to music with the X7 by my bed, and eventually sleep 

Hope you guys are excited about my review as I am to write it!


----------



## benbenkr

I'm looking forward to your X7 impressions.
  
 But may I ask, why is the E1 there?


----------



## Evshrug

*shrug*
When I asked creative if I could review the X7, they asked if I'd like to review the E1 too. I thought, why not? Might be nice with my M100 at work. So they sent me one. First time I've had a company send me something. I waffled about buying an E3 for myself anyway, I'll see what the little guy's got, but the E1 is a side-show compared to the X7 – though the E1 can work as a PC DAC, competition for FiiO's E7! Egads, these names might get confusing...


----------



## Stillhart

I admit, I'm more interested in the E1 than the X7...


----------



## Evshrug

Something for everyone then! Btw, I noticed that the diamond shaped sides aren't (just) for style, you can set the E1 on it's side and it rests on this angle and rear clip to angle the mic up towards the user.

So one thing I've noticed, Creative gives you 7 power cables, but doesn't include an optical cable, nor does the manual illustrate how to use the built-in mic with a Playstation or Xbox.


----------



## conquerator2

evshrug said:


> Something for everyone then! Btw, I noticed that the diamond shaped sides aren't (just) for style, you can set the E1 on it's side and it rests on this angle and rear clip to angle the mic up towards the user.
> 
> So one thing I've noticed, *Creative gives you 7 power cables*, but doesn't include an optical cable, nor does the manual illustrate how to use the built-in mic with a Playstation or Xbox.


 
 Awaiting your impressions 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Mine is on the way.
 A comparison to other, lesser DSPs SB Recon3D USB would be awesome :]
  
 Oh, and why do we have so many cables?! Do they all serve different purposes?


----------



## Stillhart

conquerator2 said:


> Awaiting your impressions
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 They have to validate that price tag somehow!


----------



## conquerator2

stillhart said:


> They have to validate that price tag somehow!


 
 They better be all like this then


----------



## martin vegas

stillhart said:


> I admit, I'm more interested in the E1 than the X7...


 


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!







 I think you can use the E1 with the ps4 controller..the mic could work over usb aswell..handy for late night gaming in bed if it works!


----------



## Stillhart

martin vegas said:


> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 Yeah, it looks like the line-in uses a 4-pole connection so you could use the E1 with the PS4 or Xbox One controllers and use the E1 as the mic.  It sounded like garbage in that video, but it's better than nothing.  Evs, you'll have to try it out!  I'm curious how the mic sounds when it's in your lap or clipped to your shirt or headphone cable.  This could be a great solution to using the AKG for gaming.


----------



## martin vegas

stillhart said:


> Yeah, it looks like the line-in uses a 4-pole connection so you could use the E1 with the PS4 or Xbox One controllers and use the E1 as the mic.  It sounded like garbage in that video, but it's better than nothing.  Evs, you'll have to try it out!  I'm curious how the mic sounds when it's in your lap or clipped to your shirt or headphone cable.  This could be a great solution to using the AKG for gaming.


 

 I just wonder if you will still get the sbx surround sound with the ps4 controller..sbx might only work with a pc but not 100% sure on that one..still worth taking a chance if it's only cheap!


----------



## Stillhart

martin vegas said:


> I just wonder if you will still get the sbx surround sound with the ps4 controller..sbx might only work with a pc but not 100% sure on that one..still worth taking a chance if it's only cheap!


 
 You definitely would not.  The E1 is just an amp, not a surround processor.  This would be for stereo gaming only.


----------



## martin vegas

stillhart said:


> You definitely would not.  The E1 is just an amp, not a surround processor.  This would be for stereo gaming only.


 
_The E1 has sbx pro studio aswell_
http://uk.creative.com/p/sound-blaster/sound-blaster-e1


----------



## Evshrug

stillhart said:


> You definitely would not.  The E1 is just an amp, not a surround processor.  This would be for stereo gaming only.



It has a DSP, but the only digital connection is USB. It's like an X-Fi Go combined with a FiiO E07k, easy recommendation on sale features-wise.

But yes, the E1 surprises me with capability, and could be a clever solution to gaming problems. It does have a TRRS connector (stereo with mic) and a play/pause control in addition to the expected volume, so you could easily turn headphones into headsets... At the sale price, it's more than an adequate replacement for Zombie_X's now defunct Jack adapters + BoomPro cable. You can use the E1's built-in mic or plug in another lapel mic.

I have to admit, I haven't gotten to listen to it yet.


----------



## Stillhart

evshrug said:


> It has a DSP, but the only digital connection is USB. It's like an X-Fi Go combined with a FiiO E07k, easy recommendation on sale features-wise.
> 
> But yes, the E1 surprises me with capability, and could be a clever solution to gaming problems. It does have a TRRS connector (stereo with mic) and a play/pause control in addition to the expected volume, so you could easily turn headphones into headsets... At the sale price, it's more than an adequate replacement for Zombie_X's now defunct Jack adapters + BoomPro cable. You can use the E1's built-in mic or plug in another lapel mic.
> 
> I have to admit, I haven't gotten to listen to it yet.


 
  
 Assuming I'm (we're) feeling up for it tonight, we should test the mic capabilities.  I'd be curious how you like it right out of the DS4.


----------



## martin vegas

evshrug said:


> It has a DSP, but the only digital connection is USB. It's like an X-Fi Go combined with a FiiO E07k, easy recommendation on sale features-wise.
> 
> But yes, the E1 surprises me with capability, and could be a clever solution to gaming problems. It does have a TRRS connector (stereo with mic) and a play/pause control in addition to the expected volume, so you could easily turn headphones into headsets... At the sale price, it's more than an adequate replacement for Zombie_X's now defunct Jack adapters + BoomPro cable. You can use the E1's built-in mic or plug in another lapel mic.
> 
> I have to admit, I haven't gotten to listen to it yet.


 

 When you get the chance try it straight out of the ps4s controller..i just want to know if you can get sbx surround with headphones with the controller..you might have to enable the sbx surround on the pc first then use it with the controller!


----------



## Stillhart

martin vegas said:


> When you get the chance try it straight out of the ps4s controller..i just want to know if you can get sbx surround with headphones with the controller..you might have to enable the sbx surround on the pc first then use it with the controller!


 
 That won't work.  You can't pass the surround data through an analog 3.5mm jack.  It has to come through a digital connection... i.e. the USB port.


----------



## Evshrug

First impressions of the X7 and E1...
I had a nice big bit written, but I lost the last 40 minutes I spent writing a "short" impression from my iPhone because I had my K712 plugged into it and that drained the battery really fast, there's a reason for that but I'll get to it later.

*The X7 immediately impressed.*
SBX, combined with a nice DAC, amp, and headphones, really makes for a great recipie for the console gaming I did tonight, an example of something greater than the sum of it's parts. I played CoD: Ghosts while streaming to Twitch. I'm retyping here, but here are some of the most salient "First Impression, subject to change" points:

•I often pointed out when I was picking out enemies by sound alone, well before we saw the opponent (and I blasted 'em).
•Even though I was like 3 months rusty from competitive FPS, I dominated because my awareness was so good. I actually showed the streamers how I tracked opponents through walls and anticipated when we would see them.

•HD700 and K712 seemed equally at home for power input, I easily prefer this Solid State amp (doesn't hurt that it has EQ controls) over my AV receiver and FiiO E12 portable amp...
•... even when I realized at one point that I had left both headphones plugged in! While wearing the HD700, I unplugged the K712 an heard no audible click or sudden increase in volume/sound quality, meaning it handled these two headphones without a sweat!

•The HD700 has a 1/4" larger headphone plug, and the K712 has the more common 1/8" headphone plug, there were native jacks for each, meaning I didn't need any adapters...
•... nor did I need the clutter of many interconnect cables, the headphone stand conveniently held the unused headphone, and the black of the X7 trapezoid was much cleaner than my wider silver Schiit Bifrost DAC and DIY black-and-wood tube amp with exposed tube sitting socket-flush with the top of my amp. Very much less "busy" setup.

•The smartphone app is awesome! Change settings on-the-fly while audio is playing live, a short pause after a change and abruptly you hear the contrast of the new setting applied (perfect for focusing on what changed). I might even learn to be able to sonically identify pitch by Hz number, just by listening while making changes to the EQ (works while gaming with consoles!).
•Think Astro's game/chat balance knob (which robs power from the maximum overall volume) in the Mixamp is cool? How about the Mixer panel in the X7 Control app, where you can adjust and simultaneously enable like 7 inputs and control their volume, all at once!
•My iPhone's sound effects played over Bluetooth and my headphones at the same time as the game, I suspect you can play as many sources simultaneously as you can hook up.
•Would SBX surround processing transmit to the potential two Bluetooth headphones? Forgeddabout the Astro Mixamp 5.8 or A50!!!

•I couldn't get the X7's microphone working with the PS4 via either USB connection or pairing with Bluetooth (connection timed out, apparently a common PS4 problem), but later on I noticed that by default the mic-in and beamforming mic were muted in the Mixer panel, so I'll be revisiting that.

-----


*At this time, I cannot recommend the E1,* at least till I see if I can find a way to overcome it's flaws. 
*UPDATE: My sample might be defective, so take these observations with that in mind while I wait to hear back from Creative. Creative told me that some of the review batch E1's have cable issues, they're sourcing a new cable for retail. If volume is an issue, make sure the plug is fully inserted, I had to press mine in VERY hard until it made a "snap" sound, it's a tight fit but slightly easier after the first time. This solves most people's issues (everyone's so far?).*

•I couldn't get the E1's mic to pick up my voice for the stream viewers; when I unplugged my Blue Snowball Microphone and connected the E1's via it's included TRRS cable to the PS4 controller, they all asked where I went and said they couldn't hear me.
•Audio Worked, but sounded terrible through the PS4's controller, which I chalked up to the controller being a bad transport, except...
•...after I was done streaming, I took the E1 with me for a sandwich and bed. I had my K712 plugged in and my iPhone playing higher-bitrate classical music, through the E1 (with stock TRRS cable interconnect and default E1 processor settings) the music sounded weak, noisy/grainy, wool over details, poor soundstage and separation, with low impact (at least it's not fatiguing!). It's bad enough for me to wonder if it's defective. *This was with stock settings before tweaking/updating firmware on a PC, and with the very flimsy E1 stock interconnect cable. New E1's have a different stock cable now.* E1 <<< plugging the K712 straight into the iPhone 5S. The iPhone had more detail, less grain to notes and between notes, an actual sense of the K712's characteristic soundstage and separation, better impact, and it could play louder.

I kept playing the K712 + iPhone combo while writing the post the first time, the current draw from my K712 drained my iPhone's battery very quickly, thus why I'm retyping this impression post (drat, another 40 minutes to type this far!). Which leads me to why the sound of the E1 out-of-the-box is a shame... The E1, on paper, is a nifty and useful device. With harder to drive headphones, the E1 buffers the phone, and prevents headphones from making a big current draw and draining the battery of a DAP.


----------



## conquerator2

evshrug said:


> First impressions of the X7 and E1...
> I had a nice big bit written, but I lost the last 40 minutes I spent writing a "short" impression from my iPhone because I had my K712 plugged into it and that drained the battery really fast, there's a reason for that but I'll get to it later.
> 
> *The X7 immediately impressed.*
> ...


 
 You tease 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
 Is it a marginal improvement over the Recon3D then?


----------



## draven5494

evshrug said:


> •I couldn't get the X7's microphone working with the PS4 via either USB connection or pairing with Bluetooth (connection timed out, apparently a common PS4 problem), but later on I noticed that by default the mic-in and beamforming mic were muted in the Mixer panel, so I'll be revisiting that.


 
 I am very interested to see if you get the mic working on your PS4.  I haven't had time to try this on my X7 but if you get it working I will make time.


----------



## martin vegas

evshrug said:


> First impressions of the X7 and E1...
> I had a nice big bit written, but I lost the last 40 minutes I spent writing a "short" impression from my iPhone because I had my K712 plugged into it and that drained the battery really fast, there's a reason for that but I'll get to it later.
> 
> *The X7 immediately impressed.*
> ...


 

 Try the E1 with your pc when you get the chance..you can use the SBX pro studio software, it might be ok for a lap top. p.s I will be get the X7 with Q701 when I can finally get one in my local store!


----------



## Evshrug

conquerator2 said:


> You tease :evil:
> Is it a marginal improvement over the Recon3D then?



Hard to classify what would be a standard unit of measure to say what's marginal to you, but while the Recon3D's amp was low-noise and the device was useful, the X7 in my mind makes a large improvement over the Recon3D because the DAC and Amp improvements are across-the board noticable: game and music are more "distinct" and in better focus (if you think about a camera lens having better focus/sharpness, it's like that), more/cleaner detail, the soundstage has more depth, less treble harshness on picky headphones (not because it's rolled off or dark, but because it doesn't struggle to make treble, cleanly), better bass impact and control, etc.

-----
I'm afraid I'm going to delay my full X7 review and setup article, I've got the opportunity coming up to interview Creative and ask a few questions. The in-depth review will be better/more complete after the interview, so for now my impressions will stand as the preview.


To keep your appetite whetted, I'll post an unboxing video to give an idea of scale and other physical properties.


----------



## conquerator2

evshrug said:


> Hard to classify what would be a standard unit of measure to say what's marginal to you, but while the Recon3D's amp was low-noise and the device was useful, the X7 in my mind makes a large improvement over the Recon3D because the DAC and Amp improvements are across-the board noticable: game and music are more "distinct" and in better focus (if you think about a camera lens having better focus/sharpness, it's like that), more/cleaner detail, the soundstage has more depth, less treble harshness on picky headphones (not because it's rolled off or dark, but because it doesn't struggle to make treble, cleanly), better bass impact and control, etc.
> 
> -----
> I'm afraid I'm going to delay my full X7 review and setup article, I've got the opportunity coming up to interview Creative and ask a few questions. The in-depth review will be better/more complete after the interview, so for now my impressions will stand as the preview.
> ...




Thanks Evs.
That's probably all the issues I had with the Recon 3D, solved 

I wonder what's the power output of the X7 into a 32/50/100/... Ohm load (headphones). Have not found it anywhere.


----------



## Evshrug

conquerator2 said:


> Thanks Evs.
> That's probably all the issues I had with the Recon 3D, solved
> 
> I wonder what's the power output of the X7 into a 32/50/100/... Ohm load (headphones). Have not found it anywhere.



I'll try asking, I want to make an in-depth review but I also don't want it to be too inaccessibly techie... I'll probably find the data, and after I say it I'll just repeat what I'm about to tell you: with my 150 ohm Sennheiser HD700, and my more current-hungry and widely considered picky 62 ohm AKG K712 headphones, I don't hear the flubby bass and brittle treble that identify for me when an amp has insufficient current output, and my volume setting (voltage/gain) is less than half with the HD700 so it has plenty of that spec too. As a digital stepped volume control, there are no channel imbalances at low volumes, though I'll dig out my IEMs (Etymotic ER•6i) and verify that and the current draw.


----------



## conquerator2

evshrug said:


> I'll try asking, I want to make an in-depth review but I also don't want it to be too inaccessibly techie... I'll probably find the data, and after I say it I'll just repeat what I'm about to tell you: with my 150 ohm Sennheiser HD700, and my more current-hungry and widely considered picky 62 ohm AKG K712 headphones, I don't hear the flubby bass and brittle treble that identify for me when an amp has insufficient current output, and my volume setting (voltage/gain) is less than half with the HD700 so it has plenty of that spec too. As a digital stepped volume control, there are no channel imbalances at low volumes, though I'll dig out my IEMs (Etymotic ER•6i) and verify that and the current draw.


 
 Yeah, I was more thinking about my HE-560


----------



## martin vegas

conquerator2 said:


> Yeah, I was more thinking about my HE-560


 

 Evshrugs taking his time perfecting his review so he can get himself a little number on Headphone.Guru!


----------



## Evshrug

conquerator2 said:


> Awaiting your impressions   Mine is on the way.
> A comparison to other, lesser DSPs SB Recon3D USB would be awesome :]
> 
> Oh, and why do we have so many cables?! Do they all serve different purposes?





benbenkr said:


> You know... they could have just gave a multi-adapter instead of 7 different power cables and not including a simple optical cable. I mean, the ZxR had a optical cable...




So, part of why I get to contact Creative is when I chatted with the sales team (the website's chat) asking about release dates and yadda yadda because I wanted to write a big fat review (and my writing background), the X7 I got is a review package model, and so "I" got all the extra power cables, but standard retail boxes will have just the local power cable and an optical cable.





martin vegas said:


> Evshrugs taking his time perfecting his review so he can get himself a little number on Headphone.Guru!



What — do they pay?
Mostly doing it because I wanted one, I've used most of the other console DSP options, and I want to make DSP reviews to compliment Mad's headphone reviews. A lot of people have questions about how to set them up, having a post to illustrate that which we can point to will be a nice resource.


----------



## benbenkr

You know... they could have just gave a multi-adapter instead of 7 different power cables and not including a simple optical cable. I mean, the ZxR had a optical cable...


----------



## Evshrug

conquerator2 said:


> Yeah, I was more thinking about my HE-560



Now, I've already seen some ways in which the X7's amp section improves on the E9, but did the E9 have enough power for the HE560? You also could modify the headphone cables to connect to the speaker taps, like some people are doing with home theater receivers now.


----------



## conquerator2

evshrug said:


> Now, I've already seen some ways in which the X7's amp section improves on the E9, but did the E9 have enough power for the HE560? You also could modify the headphone cables to connect to the speaker taps, like some people are doing with home theater receivers now.


 
 Yeah, I could use speaker taps. Used them in the past. But I already have a powerful headphone amp [SA31SE] that works great with them. Since they're all on the same desk, I'll just use an RCA interconnect to hook them up utilizing only the 1794 DAC [but I'll compare that to my desktop ES9018, but I wouldn't be surprised if the X7's DAC won here - the optical input is not the best input of the bunch on my DAC + The 1794 should be more musical, but we'll see].
 In terms of what I am really looking forward to, the improvement in T-H-E gaming experience is certainly on top 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Should have the X7 by Mon/Tue


----------



## sepansk4

Alright I literally just read every post in this thread start to finish, as I am currently jumping into the deep end of proper audio equipment.
  
 I have a few questions that I also posted in Mad's thread 
  
 I have decided on getting a set of AKG K712s for competitive gaming. For casual gaming and media watching I am still on the fence what I want to purchase.
  
 I have a PS4 and an Xbox One and an Ear Force DSS (this is the correct model I have) and would like to be able to jump from either system as seamless as possible without having to reconnect my headphone setup.
  
 Is the Ear Force DSS worthy of keeping or should I seek out something different?
 Would the X7 be the best set up (I don't necessarily like the cost but if it is the way to go then so be it?)
 Is there a better solution to allow for expansion into a proper home theater setup?
  
 Thank you a ton!


----------



## Evshrug

sepansk4 said:


> Alright I literally just read every post in this thread start to finish, as I am currently jumping into the deep end of proper audio equipment.
> 
> I have a few questions that I also posted in Mad's thread
> 
> I have decided on getting a set of AKG K712s for competitive gaming.




What, these?


Dude! They're awesome! Yeah for media and casual games too!

The DSS is a huge value. The volume/voltage is more than enough, though it doesn't have the current and clean smoothness of the X7 it's still the unit that least needs an extra amp (the K712 is also more forgiving of hot treble in this regard than the Q701). If you have a DSS now, well the X7 isn't a limited time deal, and your ears & brain literally take time to train what you get from higher-end gear. I'd call the X7 a level 2 (or final boss, on hard mode with the extended ending, but maybe not the final boss on nightmare mode with the same ending as hard mode, if you understand the metaphor) gear, unless you need the convenience features, you don't have to jump into the X7 right away to have a great gaming experience. At this price point, and if your two consoles are right next to eachother, I'd say leave the USB plugged into the PS4 and just switch which console the optical cable is plugged in.

Now, the thing about the X7 and DSS is that it only comes with one built-in optical port. No big deal if you don't care about surround for one of the consoles (there is so much game overlap for the two current gen consoles!), you can use a cheap optical-to-stereo-RCA DAC like FiiO's D03k or D5 and plug into the RCA line-in of the X7. If you want surround, optical connection for both, you might consider getting an optical switcher so you can leave both consoles plugged in.

Another option, near the same price but not as great for headphones in amping or headphone surround DSP, is a home theater receiver. Multiple HDMI inputs, remote, usually amping for 5.1 or 7.1 passive speaker setup, this would be a good choice if you have the space and intend to use speakers more than headphones. Like, you have a house rather than dorm, apartment, or condo. If that's your plan like 5 years down the road, well, by then receiver tech will have lots more doo-dads and functions. I live in a pretty decent-sized condo with three floors, and I have the receiver dedicated in the basement... and I almost never use it. YMMV.


----------



## pathfindercod

I love my 712 pros. People say casual gaming, what would be better than these bad boys for more serious gaming? These 712 pros already increased my k/d ratio tremendously. If somethibg is even better please tell me because I wanna try them. If love to compare the differences.


----------



## conquerator2

I wonder, do the op-amps in the X7 affect the DAC section in any way, or only the amp section?


----------



## ad idem

Evshrug,
  
 While I've been following any information available regarding the X7 since its announcement, there is a question I can't seem to find the answer to, and was wondering if you could (or perhaps already had a chance to) test out if there is specifically USB mic functionality with the X7. I know you had some issues with getting the mic to work with the PS4 as mentioned earlier. Needless to say, there is no rush on this query. From your posts, I understand you have a Blue Snowball mic that you use with your PS4. Do you still have to connect your mic directly to the console's USB and use the X7 for everything else? I only ask since I have a Blue Yeti, and thought it would be nice to use via the X7 and be able to control all audio in real time via the app (and perhaps use some of the mic features/effects as well). I'm assuming that it doesn't work the way I was wanting though, but thought it wouldn't hurt to ask. Especially since it's literally one of the very last things I wanted to find out prior to pulling the trigger on one.
  
 As someone that mostly spends time on forums reading (as opposed to posting) wanted to say I enjoy reading your posts. Generally even-keeled, and informative in nature, I've found them helpful during my continual learning process. Anyway, thank you in advance for your input, and I look forward to your review.


----------



## Evshrug

^ad idem,
Wow, thanks! I'd say that "generally" is a fair qualification (shrugging things off is my ideal, not necessary automatic every day), and the compliments you gave me in recoignition for what I try to do (help) makes me feel good to my core, a genuine thank you.

I was trying that mic setup and hoping that creative will add support, so far it seems like a no-go based on how the PS4 "sees" the X7. Bleh. So plug your Blue Microphone straight into the PS4, you'll be able to set your mic gain once and forget it, and control all the other audio from the X7. Creative know's we'd like this feature, and I suggested that when/if Sony adds support for Generic Bluetooth headsets like the PS3 did, perhaps the X7 could add mic support that way and Mixer together the audio... Should be physically possible with current hardware, but for now the X7 mic is for Bluetooth and PC (Mac/Win) only.


----------



## pietcux

Evshrug, is there any hint that the X7 will support Dolby Atmos?


----------



## Fegefeuer

The device doesn't even support HDMI (no True HD via optical).


----------



## conquerator2

I wonder, is the bluetooth always on on the X7 or can you choose to turn it off independently? Cheers


----------



## ad idem

evshrug said:


> ^ad idem,
> Wow, thanks! I'd say that "generally" is a fair qualification (shrugging things off is my ideal, not necessary automatic every day), and the compliments you gave me in recoignition for what I try to do (help) makes me feel good to my core, a genuine thank you.
> 
> I was trying that mic setup and hoping that creative will add support, so far it seems like a no-go based on how the PS4 "sees" the X7. Bleh. So plug your Blue Microphone straight into the PS4, you'll be able to set your mic gain once and forget it, and control all the other audio from the X7. Creative know's we'd like this feature, and I suggested that when/if Sony adds support for Generic Bluetooth headsets like the PS3 did, perhaps the X7 could add mic support that way and Mixer together the audio... Should be physically possible with current hardware, but for now the X7 mic is for Bluetooth and PC (Mac/Win) only.


 

 You're most welcome, and I'm glad it brightened your mood . I'm sure it can be taxing at times to try and help on forums (people not reading nor using search functions etc.). And also thank you for addressing my question. It's rather a shame that it doesn't work, since it would be pretty nice if the X7 literally could be the control unit for all my audio devices. But I guess it's not the end of the world using the analog mic jack on the front in lieu of USB connections. I mean that is if I really want to use a different mic just to have all audio control under the X7. But I must admit, that is a big allure for me, and goes a long way in justifying the purchase. Reduce clutter, retain/increase audio quality, centralize control to one location.
  
 Also does this statement here: "*...for now the X7 mic is for Bluetooth and PC (Mac/Win) only.*" mean you did get a chance to go further into the mixer panel and unmute things to find out that it (mic-in and beamforming options) doesn't work with your console? Because if so, me mentioning the backup plan of using the front mic jack becomes nonviable. Which in turn makes me a sad panda.


----------



## Evshrug

I really need to finish the review, I answer a lot of those questions in what I've writ so far...

The X7 supports Dolby Digital Live surround encoding and LPCM on optical, two simultaneous Bluetooth connections, a line in, a mic-in, and uncompressed USB input for PC (Mac and Windows), and a second usb input for USB Host Mode for iOS7+ devices and android devices that support OTG connection. With the PC control panel or the mobile app, you can mute or mix the volume from any connected source.

The X7 currently can only connect to consoles with the optical or analog line-in inputs, no microphone support because of how the consoles recoignize USB Devices. As I said above, I'm hoping Sony changes Bluetooth things because that would make a mic connection easy, theoretically.


----------



## conquerator2

evshrug said:


> I really need to finish the review, I answer a lot of those questions in what I've writ so far...
> 
> The X7 supports Dolby Digital Live surround encoding and LPCM on optical, two simultaneous Bluetooth connections, a line in, a mic-in, and uncompressed USB input for PC (Mac and Windows), and a second usb input for USB Host Mode for iOS7+ devices and android devices that support OTG connection. With the PC control panel or the mobile app, you can mute or mix the volume from any connected source.
> 
> The X7 currently can only connect to consoles with the optical or analog line-in inputs, no microphone support because of how the consoles recoignize USB Devices. As I said above, I'm hoping Sony changes Bluetooth things because that would make a mic connection easy, theoretically.


 
 Thanks 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 I'll be totally content with a yes or no to my previous question 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Pretty pleeeeeeeease 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Here a repost - 'I wonder, is the bluetooth always on on the X7 or can you choose to turn it off independently [when X7 is running]? Cheers 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Thank you 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




'


----------



## ad idem

I was almost going to mention being sorry for potentially taking time away from the review with my additional questions in my previous post, but opted not to, to avoid coming across too preemptively apologetic ha ha. Oh the irony .
  
 I very much appreciate the clarifications on your part. And I hope you get a chance to relax a bit and enjoy your holiday in spite of putting together this review (as well as other social obligations given the season). I'm sure it can't be easy considering those on the hype train for this device chomping at the bit to get more info from a credible source, like starved hyenas eying a fresh carcass. Also, here's to hoping Sony does actually make my audio dreams a reality in future firmware updates.


----------



## Evshrug

conquerator2 said:


> Thanks
> 
> I'll be totally content with a yes or no to my previous question
> Pretty pleeeeeeeease
> ...



Paragraph 2 was all about you baby!
TL;DR
I think the X7 always has Bluetooth on, but Bluetooth inputs are one of the things you can mute in the Mixer panel.



ad idem said:


> I was almost going to mention being sorry for potentially taking time away from the review with my additional questions in my previous post, but opted not to, to avoid coming across too preemptively apologetic ha ha. Oh the irony .
> 
> I very much appreciate the clarifications on your part. And I hope you get a chance to relax a bit and enjoy your holiday in spite of putting together this review (as well as other social obligations given the season). I'm sure it can't be easy considering those on the hype train for this device chomping at the bit to get more info from a credible source, like starved hyenas eying a fresh carcass. Also, here's to hoping Sony does actually make my audio dreams a reality in future firmware updates.



No Prob, I just wrote these replies during the 15 minute break at work, so it didn't take away from review time. I'm really excited people are excited to read!

Edit: I wrote that when I got home from work (tech support @ a retail support), now I'm in bed hoping to shut off my brain quickly so that I can write in the morning before work @ noon.


----------



## conquerator2

X7 is waiting for me at home. Big thanks to Fegefeuer/Arif for acting as a proxy! Really appreciate it.
The DI-V2014 is arriving later today too.
A great day today


----------



## conquerator2

Some pictures:


----------



## Fleat

ad idem said:


> Evshrug,
> 
> While I've been following any information available regarding the X7 since its announcement, there is a question I can't seem to find the answer to, and was wondering if you could (or perhaps already had a chance to) test out if there is specifically USB mic functionality with the X7. I know you had some issues with getting the mic to work with the PS4 as mentioned earlier. Needless to say, there is no rush on this query. From your posts, I understand you have a Blue Snowball mic that you use with your PS4. Do you still have to connect your mic directly to the console's USB and use the X7 for everything else? I only ask since I have a Blue Yeti, and thought it would be nice to use via the X7 and be able to control all audio in real time via the app (and perhaps use some of the mic features/effects as well). I'm assuming that it doesn't work the way I was wanting though, but thought it wouldn't hurt to ask. Especially since it's literally one of the very last things I wanted to find out prior to pulling the trigger on one.
> 
> As someone that mostly spends time on forums reading (as opposed to posting) wanted to say I enjoy reading your posts. Generally even-keeled, and informative in nature, I've found them helpful during my continual learning process. Anyway, thank you in advance for your input, and I look forward to your review.


 
 ad idem,
  
 This is just speculation, but I don't think you would be able to use your Blue Yeti with the PS4 anyways. Due to the audio monitoring (headphone out) port, it will see the device as a microphone and audio output device and send all the chat / party audio through that.
  
 You could always run the Blue Yeti's headphone monitoring port into the aux in on a Astro Mixamp or DSS2 if you wanted to add the audio back into the mix. I am not sure if this is possible for the X7 though. I actually have the Yeti and use this for my PC twitch casting. If I get a chance, I will test out the Yeti on the PS4 and attempt to confirm my suspicions.
  
 It is truly a shame to hear that the microphone in on the X7 isn't working on the PS4. Considering they are advertising it for use with consoles, I would think they would fix this via a firmware update or something.


----------



## conquerator2

I've briefly set everything up just to test whether everything works fine.
 The BT app is a great touch.
 I was expecting a bit more voltage from the line out though, it is about on par [in terms of volumeXvolume] when I used the Recon3D USB - HP out @about -2 from max. volume, into the same amplifier.
 Just FYI, I'll test the SQ later [and compare the 1794 DAC to an external ES9018 one]


----------



## benbenkr

@conquerator2
  
 Thanks for the pics on the op-amps. Uses the exact same ones as the ZxR, which I didn't like too much. Good thing they make it so easily replaceable though (easier than the ZxR that is).


----------



## conquerator2

Any recommendations for the op-amps?


----------



## benbenkr

conquerator2 said:


> Any recommendations for the op-amps?


 
  
 I always felt that the stock op-amps were a little too bloaty in the bass (a reason why the ZxR was never a great match with many warm headphones out of the box). I switched to LME49720HA and LME49710HA. Also messed around with MUSE01 but didn't exactly like it much either. I saw a thread long ago that a user was using MUSE02 in the I/V and something else as the buffer though I don't remember what they were.
  
But the LME49720 and 49710 did tighten the bloaty bass up noticeably, not significantly of course. But it's enough for what I wanted as I do hook my ZxR up to a pair of Swans M50w.
  
Also, since the X7 only allows access to the op-amps without voiding warranty, there's no other way to actually switch out the DIPs for further tweaking.


----------



## lenroot77

Really looking forward to your full blown X7 review Evs!

Great thread u have here!


----------



## conquerator2

Hey Evs,
Do you run the X7 at 69% Surround [SBX]?
Hope you had a great Eve


----------



## Evshrug

Ev had a great Eve, I saw what you did there! After a GF family dinner party, I stole time writing till 5 am to figure out what I wanted to say in the X7 review.

I think it's down to personal choice... I "calibrated" my brain with 67%, but I turned it up to 88% and it's easier to hear the surround directions for my ears.


----------



## conquerator2

evshrug said:


> Ev had a great Eve, I saw what you did there! After a GF family dinner party, I stole time writing till 5 am to figure out what I wanted to say in the X7 review.


 
 Aight 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I am waiting for your say. I am still tweaking the surround sound settings myself.


----------



## benbenkr

On my ZxR (I belive the ZxR co-relates to the X7, since they're almost identical hardware wise except for output impedance and some other very minor differences), I've always liked 72% on SBX for games and 61% for movies. 
  
 Always felt that 67% is slightly too anemic. Boosting this up to 72% gives it that subtle but noticeable air, it's more immersive IMO.


----------



## conquerator2

I am really liking the X7. More refined sound than the Recon3D, noticeably more bass [the stock op-amps work really well with my neutral headphones at 'flat' EQ].
 The X7 companion app is a godsend and the X7 automatically choosing inputs/outputs is even greater.
 I've been further testing the SBX and the difference from say 33 to 67 to 100 is really just in the overall size of the 'room'. With the room getting bigger, the sound does get a bit more processed, sounding very natural at 33 and less so at 100. Still, it is a matter of taste and I'll be further testing it. For now, I think 67 is the sweet spot but I might get swayed a bit over time.
I'll comment on the DAC section later and on the amp section when I receive the K7XX.
  
 So far though, this is a seriously impressive device! And a definite improvement in all aspects over the Recon3D, both in immersion and competitiveness 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
  
 Mini DAC comparison - OK, so the DACs in question are the X7's built in DAC [PCM1794] via a line out to the SA31SE amp and then my HE-560, using either PS4 via optical or PC via USB [through Wyrd] to the X7. This was exhibit A - PS4/PC[+Wyrd] - X7 RCA line out - RCA in on the SA31SE.
  
 Exhibit B was my main NFB-7 DAC [ES9018] paired with a DI-V2014, using the same sources. The chain then would be PS4/PC[+Wyrd] - X7 S-PDIF out - DI-V2014 - HDMI out - HDMI in - NFB-7.
 The settings are used on the X7 were identical for both on this test - SBX at 67%, everything else off, no bass boost, 'flat' EQ setting. The game I tested in question was Alan Wake, which I found to have great cues and sound [if not the best overall SQ that's out there].
  
 To begin with, I was expecting a mild difference. I've compared gear before and the differences were rarely night and day. I was expecting a bit more detail and analytic sound from the NFB7's ES9018 and a bit more warmth and musicality from the X7's PCM1794.
  
 Well, was I wrong! The difference in resulting sound was staggering. Keep in mind that the amplifier was identical for both. So the difference comes down to either a] the op-amps in the X7 [if they are being utilized in this setup?] b] drastic difference between the two DAC chips c] drastic difference in the implementations/parts or d] there's some extra processing going on that I cannot see/find.
  
 Let's get to the differences - first, the SBX Surround ['room' simulation] effect as a whole, is still very convincing with the X7 DAC, though I found it a bit echoey still and constrained/heavy in terms of separation, a bit hazy and more wide than deep [at 67]. The NFB-7 fixes this issue entirely. There's a virtual room, with similar L-R X Front - Rear proportion, noticeably improved rear cues [like, seriously] and superior pin-point accuracy . With better nuance and detail coverage all-round/ Granted, the resulting sound is definitely lighter and a bit less immersive, but things still sound very convincing [if not noticeably more so] while offering a superior 'audiphile' experience. With the X7, I feel a bit more immersed, but at the same time a bit more distracted [having to focus more on where the cues are coming from, what the noises are, etc.], while the NFB7 just shows all the cues, clearly separated and ready to follow. One could say the X7 leans towards bass and immersion and the NFB7 towards delicacy and perfection.
  
 Speaking of bass, the X7 has a definite boost there. There's more of it, everywhere, including non-bass related cues, like voices/vocals, giving them more body and oomph than need be. the NFB7 sounds just like it does with the music - neutral, but offers the benefits of the SBX. There's also a difference in vocals, but this difference is further pronounced at certain times - for example, during cutscenes in AW, the vocals get quieter/reduce in volume when using the X7 DAC, while they remain level on the NFB7, again suggesting there could be some sort of internal/external processing at play that I don't see, increasing the difference.
  
 I did not tick the 'direct mode' or 'S-PDIF direct' in the X7's settings while testing either DACs. I did not assume it would affect one without affecting the other, should it do anything. All other X7's 'enhancements' [Dialogue Plus, etc.] remained off.
  
 In conclusion, the X7's DAC sounded [as of now, with these settings] sounded noticeably warmer, more muffled and bloated [largely due to the bass boost] and projected a less convincing room effect, while the NFB7 sounded neutral, with easier discernable details/cues and a superior audio experience.
  
 Of course, the X7 is still a good performer! A worthwhile upgrade from the Recon3D. This is only to relation to a different [and arguably much more expensive] DAC, utilizing only the DSP processing of the X7. I am kinda starting to wish for a 'DSP' only device now 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But that's because I own the NFB7/SA31SE...
  
 I'll investigate further tomorrow whether there's anything I missed. As of now, I am certainly a bit buffled by the results. I was expecting the difference in both quality and signature to be there, but for it to be this drastic, that I did not expect.
  
 I hope someone else [Evs ] can test an external DAC like I did, to either verify or prove wrong my findings! Good night for now 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 [PS - Hope Evs doesn't mind me posting my little snippets in his thread. I am stll eagerly waiting for his take 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




]
  
 EDIT: 2-DACs comparison


----------



## benbenkr

^So from your impressions, it does seem to fit what I already know since I own a ZxR - The X7 is on the warmish tilt side of things, of which can be somewhat remedied towards the neutral side with different op-amps.


----------



## Fegefeuer

benbenkr said:


> ^So from your impressions, it does seem to fit what I already know since I own a ZxR - The X7 is on the warmish tilt side of things, of which can be somewhat remedied towards the neutral side with different op-amps.




I share the same experience with the stock ZxR. It's less controlled in the bass region and more tilted towards "excitement" in general while my D2 DAC is building the world noticably cleaner, more precise with better architectural finesse. (What a stupid description but you get the notion). 

Yet still the x7 will overshadow any other affordable solution immensely.


----------



## benbenkr

fegefeuer said:


> I share the same experience with the stock ZxR. It's less controlled in the bass region and more tilted towards "excitement" in general while my D2 DAC is building the world noticably cleaner, more precise with better architectural finesse. (What a stupid description but you get the notion).
> 
> Yet still the x7 will overshadow any other affordable solution immensely.


 
  
 Agreed. My cheap fix for the ZxR before swithching out the op-amps were to EQ the bass regions down several notches for most headphones and speakers that I paired it with. Never liked EQing but it does help somewhat in cases like this.
 Can EQing be done on the X7?


----------



## conquerator2

^ it can, very easily. 
Either through the PC X7 app, or the Android/iOS companion app. It offers a pretty good EQ, with lots to tweak


----------



## Evshrug (Mar 31, 2022)

*Creative Lab's Sound Blaster X7*

As gamers, it's part of our hobby to seek "the next level". We're always looking for new adventures, new ideas, new graphics, and new ways to push the competitive edge. In the past few years, there has been a growing awareness (or for the hardcore, a resurgence) of how virtual surround combined with great headphones provides an ideal gaming experience: private, immersive, no speaker placement issues, and high value. Creative Lab's new Sound Blaster X7 is the result of a growing consumer awareness of these benefits and Creative’s taking note that there is a market for upgraded component quality and convenience.




Here's as shortest way to describe what the X7 has to offer: it weaves the web of practically all your audio sources into an all-in-one high fidelity component and plays them back (almost) however you want. The X7 offers a surround DSP, desktop DAC, desktop headphone amp, passive speaker (!) amp, and beamforming microphone. The X7 can connect to optical, USB, analog RCA line-in, mic line-in, and up to two Bluetooth sources. Plus, it looks awesome with its pyramid/prism shape, uncluttered front,volume/mute knob at the apex, and wire headphone stand/home above it. Overall the X7 is a smaller unit than I expected and it rated an "Oh, that's a tidy little setup" from my girlfriend.

My desktop setup, Before/After



Those qualities were enough to make me jump at trying out the X7 as soon as it was released... but if you're reading this, I suspect you are trying to find out if it's worth its $400 MSRP price tag.


*The Specs & Sound*

I want to point out right away that the specifications are all listed on www.soundblaster.com/x7, and except for one minor addition to that list I just want to focus on how each of those numbers benefit the sound.

Right now, I'm keeping the writing juices flowing by listening to Daft Punk's newest Random Access Memories (featured in Stuff.tv's "30 Greatest Audiophile Albums" article), and that Burr Brown 127dB S:N DAC and Texas Instruments' headphone amp is easily revealing detailed minutia such as reverb and the decay of drums, with solid, tight bass, mesmerizing mids, and clean clean clean clear treble. With good headphones, I can hear most of these details with the built-in DAC in a typical 86dB motherboard or 98dB DAC built into previous console-gamer DSPs, such as an Astro Mixamp or Creative Recon3D. Often, however, I won't NOTICE these details until the X7 (or my other DAC, a Schiit Bifrost Uber) seems to pull the wool out of my ears and reveals the details. Playing "Hooked on a Feeling," I never before noticed the organ that begins playing at 25 seconds. The X7 is a very good DAC, so much so that since I don't lose any entertainment value compared to the $420 Schiit Bifrost Uber and I gain all the extra features, I'd easily recommend it for gamers over the Bifrost.

Another shortcoming with a motherboard or Mixamp, those "entry-level" devices have merely "entry-level" amps. With higher quality headphones, which generally feature higher impedance (Ω, or Ohms) and lower sensitivity, I had to double-amp with a dedicated headphone amp to hear the true level of dynamic and controlled quality the headphones were capable of. Nothing extra is needed in the X7, thanks to the Texas Instruments TPA6120A2 solid-state headphone amp chip "capable of driving high-end 600Ω headphones." It certainly doesn't seem to be straining to supply my 150Ω Sennheiser HD700, 62Ω AKG K712, or 32Ω VMODA M-100; "Spirit in the Sky" digs really dynamically into the artist-intended distorted guitar and sounds awesome (and yup, I have the Guardians of the Galaxy OST).



One last specification that is Head-Fi popular but rarely published by amp manufacturers is the headphone output impedance; I asked Creative and they told me it was 2.2Ω, which is a very nice and pretty universal measurement that will allow for all but the most difficult IEMs to drive nicely without distorting. Oh, and the speaker taps? They happen to play nice with my antique Stax headphones and their transformer:




Okay okay, that is great and all, but how does it sound while gaming? Creative’s proprietary SBX processing for headphone surround, combined with a nice DAC, amp, and headphones, really makes a great recipe for console gaming – an example of something greater than the sum of its parts. Sure, it plays great from PC like top of the line soundcards, but the X7 is the first Dolby Digital Live surround decoder with a headphone DSP that has high-end parts.

In testing, I played CoD: Ghosts while streaming to Twitch. I often pointed out for my viewers when I was picking out enemies by sound alone, well before we saw the opponent (and I blasted 'em). Even though I was about 3 months rusty from competitive FPS, I dominated because my awareness was so good! I actually showed the streamers how I tracked opponents through walls and anticipated when we would see them come around corners. Playing a single-player game like Metro: First Light, it's easy to get caught up in the atmosphere and spook when you hear a monster climbing up the pillar off the screen to your right. If you've never gamed with headphone surround before, it really sucks you in and immerses your senses, even more than 3D. SBX processing sounds cleaner and more realistic than the rare headphone surround DSP built into any home theater receiver. Plus, it's adjustable...


*Controls and Adjustments*

The X7 has the best controls I've ever seen in an audio component. The PC control panel is logically laid out with different sections and icons in a sidebar, AND every control is also accessible from a similar layout on the smartphone/tablet app. I have iOS devices, and the PC control panel is replicated on my iPad, while my iPhone 5S has icons on the main screen that correlate with the sidebar sections on other devices. The connection is Bluetooth and there is a one second delay between making a change and the X7 changing to reflect that, but that doesn't diminish how cool it is to mess with SBX and Equalizer settings while the game is playing live on the main screen.

The first screen of the Sound Blaster X7 mobile app on my iPhone allows me to switch between speaker and headphone output (don't have to unplug anything!), change volume, choose if I want my iPhone's sound to play through the X7 or something else, and choose between the 9 control categories. I'll focus on just three for the scope of this review: SBX Pro Studio, Mixer, and Profile (in the Cinematic panel, just set it to "full" and leave it there).


*SBX Pro Studio*

I covered a lot of these functions in my Recon3D USB review, and they function essentially the same here. The sample video/sound clip built-in to the PC control panel is useless, but you can just play a real game while making adjustments.

"Surround" and its strength slider allow the virtual headphone surround goodness. I prefer personally to have this setting pretty high while gaming (~80%-100%) but getting used to 67% at first is a good baseline.

"Crystalizer" is supposed to "restore" the liveliness of compressed audio, maybe this would be great with the Sony MA900 or HD650 to "wake them up," but the headphones I prefer are already pretty lively and this setting is fatiguing to me, so I switch it off.

I actually like Creative's "bass" setting here and find a little boost pleasurable, I believe it makes an EQ adjustment and perhaps a little volume compression, the "crossover frequency" sub-setting is a cutoff point for where the bass boost stops having effect, so I can keep the bass from bleeding over the detail of the mids.

"Smart Volume" is a volume compression to "minimize sudden volume changes" and make quiet sounds not so quiet compared to the loudest sounds. I know a lot of people will switch it off and I find it situational, but sometimes I find it really useful when a movie or especially TV show is quiet then suddenly booming, or if I'm writing a review article for 6 hours and I just want to listen at quiet volumes.

"Dialog Plus" enhances voices, again something I quite enjoy with movies and TV shows.

On the mobile app, the SBX panel is also where the 10-band EQ lives – sometimes the EQ seems to hide from me, but then I remember that it's in this SBX panel, at the top of the screen.


*Mixer*

Astro Gaming, eat your heart out. The Astro Mixamp has two dials, a master volume dial and a game-to-chat balance knob. If you use any "chat" then the Mixamp actually loses some maximum volume output. The X7 has no such volume issues because it's all digital, and you can rebalance the volume of your overall output, mic monitoring (hear yourself echo in your headphone), line-in, SPDIF-in, Bluetooth, USB Host, and SPDIF Out. Any of those could also be muted, or change the balance of left/right ear in case you have any hearing loss or one speaker just sounds "off."

Oh, I guess this is as good a time as any to point out that ALL these sources can be playing at once (only one bluetooth at a time, you an pair two but switch which is feeding audio), so you can have your PS4 going, your iPad playing some music, your friend on PC chatting with you, and hear your phone ring and quickly switch to just that connection. Since these play simultaneously, you can get creative with your console connections, which I'll get back to in the setup section.


*Profile*

Yay for controls and options! Boo-hiss for having to change all the settings per-headphone or for each type of media. Luckily, the X7 can save a set of settings into different profiles so you can switch everything quickly, or use one of Creative's preset ones.


*Connections and Microphone* 



Alright, I've already listed the types of connections on the X7, but I just wanted to go a bit more in-depth on a few things. First of all, the X7's built-in beamforming mic works on PC and bluetooth, but there isn't really a convenient way to use the X7's mic with a gaming console.

Second, when gaming on PC, my friends consistently preferred my dedicated Blue Snowball USB mic -- even my cheap HDE/Neewer clip-on mic I found on Amazon sounds a little cleaner. A big part of that quality can be attributed simply to the compromise of being further away from a mic and then the room acoustics come into play. But it must be said that I'm not compelled to use the x7's Beamforming mic much, and that hurts the "all-in-one" score a bit. On the bright side, I had my friend call my phone with bluetooth and it seamlessly changed the playback and mic audio to the call once I accepted, so that's a plus.

*Xbox* doesn’t support USB Audio at all, so you’ll need an optical connection to the X7 for game sound, and if you really want chat audio you’ll have to get fancy with the controller output, adapters, wires, and the X7’s mixing feature, or just use the Kinect mic.

Sony *PS4* supports USB Audio Class 1 devices, but for some reason it can’t “see” the X7 at all. Now, the X7 has so many complicated features that I’m sure “generic drivers” wouldn’t cut it, and we still have a workaround to use the Optical output with Dolby Bitstream output selected in the PS4’s settings, but what about the mic? It would be great if the PS4 at least recognized the X7 as an input/output for chat audio, but alas, no. HOWEVER, if you want a clean setup with full chat support, you can work around this by using a USB Bluetooth dongle (Creative makes a good one) and instructing the PS4 to Route everything to do with chat through the USB and the game sound to go out through optical, and then pair the Bluetooth to the X7. This also lets you use the mixer feature to balance the volume of game audio and chat audio!

In the end, right now it's simpler and sounds great to just use the X7 for game audio duty, and plugging in a desktop USB mic into a computer or PS4/3, if you're the type of person who likes to chat. You could also do what the console manufacturers want you to do, and use a Kinect or PS Camera as your mic, the mic quality on those are basically the same as the X7 (because they pick up your voice from distance and get some of the sound of the room). You could also get more complicated with a y-splitter, lapel mic or ModMic, and route chat audio from controller to the X7; the Xbox One additionally requires the headset chat adapter if you mean to use the controller-wired method. Personally that's too much wire mess and I'd stick with a USB mic or Kinect. Here's a picture of how the PS4 controller-wired-to-the-X7 setup looks like:




*Who Is This For?*

The X7 has proved it's worth to me, performing some impressive feats of Alchemy while also being rather future-proof, and I'd buy it again if I had to. That said, I realize that some of it's features may not be worth it to my dear readers, in which case I'd recommend something like a Turtle Beach DSS, which fits pretty much in the middle between the 1Dimensional stereo sound from a console controller/PC motherboard and the high-end sound of the X7. I'd recommend saving up for the X7 if some of these points make sense to you:

•College dorms, apartments and condos.
•Best DSP on the market besides Beyerdynamic Headzone and Smith Realizer - realistically the X7 gets the max quality out of games and can produce better-than-CD music.
•Make use of 3 or more features (DAC, amp, surround DSP, Audio Source mixing, etc).
•"Next Level" quality, for those seeking better than a Mixamp.

- Review by Everett, special thanks to Stillhart for editing and encouragement, and Ryan and Susie of Creative Labs for the extra information and helping me get my hands on one of the early units.
- Next up, a youtube video review!


----------



## conquerator2

Too short 
Great writing Evs.
I will be probably writing something myself, but I agree with what you said mostly and applaud the effort


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## lenroot77

Nice review! U should post this up on Amazon, as no one else has yet.


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## Evshrug

lenroot77 said:


> Nice review! U should post this up on Amazon, as no one else has yet.



Yup! Also making stand-alone review.



conquerator2 said:


> Too short
> Great writing Evs.
> I will be probably writing something myself, but I agree with what you said mostly and applaud the effort



I tested the physical unit pretty thoroughly, comparing and whatnot, kept editing parts.

I tried to point out the best points at the beginning, so that I already let the cat out of the bag that it's pretty boss right from the start. I legitimately feel that the only remaining worry for most will be the cost. The cost:value seems clearest to me when I found that the difference between the Schiit and Creative was mostly that the X7's DAC is a little warmer... The Bifrost Uber is $420, and all you get is a (well-regarded value) DAC.


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## pack21

Fantastic review!

Finally some light on X7. Can you explain how you hear the sound of party in your headphones when you use a USB mic? hear yourself, echo or none, game sound allows to listen participants in chat or vice versa?

Thanks


----------



## conquerator2

evshrug said:


> Yup! Also making stand-alone review.
> I tested the physical unit pretty thoroughly, comparing and whatnot, kept editing parts.
> 
> I tried to point out the best points at the beginning, so that I already let the cat out of the bag that it's pretty boss right from the start. I legitimately feel that the only remaining worry for most will be the cost. The cost:value seems clearest to me when I found that the difference between the Schiit and Creative was mostly that the X7's DAC is a little warmer... The Bifrost Uber is $420, and all you get is a (well-regarded value) DAC.



Have you experienced the same in regards to the X7's DAC?
I compared it to the NFB7 and found out the aforementioned things... Previous post for details (DAC comparison).
The X7 does do well via the RCA line oit, just curios about your opinion and/or whether you agree with my sound signature assesment 
Cheers and happy 2015


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## Evshrug

Oh yeah I read your comparison, I just didn't want to steal your thunder. I haven't heard an Audio GD product, but I do think the stock op-amps add a little warmth. Sounds good as-is, but I know it can be tweaked, just not something I've done.


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## Evshrug

pack21 said:


> Fantastic review!
> 
> Finally some light on X7. Can you explain how you hear the sound of party in your headphones when you use a USB mic? hear yourself, echo or none, game sound allows to listen participants in chat or vice versa?
> 
> Thanks



If you have a USB mic plugged into a PS4, chat audio automatically is just transported along with the rest of the game audio over the optical connection. On PC, you can turn on mic monitoring (where you can hear yourself after a slight delay) even if you're using a USB mic, but it makes me seriously distracted to hear myself. I did use it a bit just to hear the mic though, sounds a lot better locally before you compress it and send your voice over Steam chat or Battle.net

Oh, btw, I did use the speaker taps with great results. I'll go more into detail on that in the video review.


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## pack21

evshrug said:


> Oh yeah I read your comparison, I just didn't want to steal your thunder. I haven't heard an Audio GD product, but I do think the stock op-amps add a little warmth. Sounds good as-is, but I know it can be tweaked, just not something I've done.





Ok, so sound of chat + game goes by optical cable. 

I'm not near the PS4 to confirm, but i think there is one option bar to balance chat audio with game audio, can you balance this mix in PS4?


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## Evshrug

Well, PS4 allows game/chat audio balance if you're in a party. The other way is for you to increase mic gain, so you can sound louder.


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## martin vegas

Happy New year from England and thanks for the review Evshrug!


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!


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## bavinck

So, would something like a boompro mic work with the X7 and allow me to mix the chat/audio like the mixamp does?


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## conquerator2

evshrug said:


> Oh yeah I read your comparison, I just didn't want to steal your thunder. I haven't heard an Audio GD product, but I do think the stock op-amps add a little warmth. Sounds good as-is, but I know it can be tweaked, just not something I've done.




Meh, do what you'd like.
It was just something I gobbled out before sleep 
Funny thing though, if you find it just slightly warmer than Bifrost, I find it a lot warmer than the NFB7 (which is dead dead neutral IMO).
I would like to read your take on X7 vs Bifrost via Toslink/S-PDIF out of X7 to Bifrost.
I do have the DI-V2014 in between, and the Wyrd between my PC and X7, but the difference is not too substantial IMO.
That is where my comparison comes from.
Even at 67 surround, the spatial cues on the NFB7 sound a lot like pure X7 at 100, just still more natural and less processed...
Kind of a real surprise there.
I suspected at first that there is some additional DSP at play, but I doubt it now...
The difference is very obvious to say the least and I do prefer the NFB7 significantly right now.
A bit of a shocker honestly


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## Stillhart

It's shocking that your $1300 NFB-7 sounds way better than the X7 or that the X7 sounds close to the Bifrost?
  
 A lot of people say it's very difficult to hear the difference between the Modi and the Bifrost in a blind test.  The main advantages to the Bifrost are upgradability and connectivity.  Given my experiences with the Omni and the Modi, I don't find it surprising at all that the X7 and Bifrost are very close.


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## conquerator2

I was mainly talking about the tonality of NFB7 vs X7. Not so much the price or SQ difference.
I am a bit surprised by the Bifrost similarity.
That's why I wonder whether the Bifrost and NFB7 really are that different or if there is some additional effect or processing at play on my part of the X7-line out (RCA) testing 
I would expect the NFB7 to outperform them... Just the tonality is starkingly different, even to me.


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## Stillhart

conquerator2 said:


> I was mainly talking about the tonality of NFB7 vs X7. Not so much the price or SQ difference.
> I am a bit surprised by the Bifrost similarity.
> That's why I wonder whether the Bifrost and NFB7 really are that different or if there is some additional effect or processing at play on my pair of the X7-line out (RCA) testing


 
  
 Oh I see.  The best way to make sure you're bypassing all processing is to use WASPI.  That should answer your question pretty quickly.


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## pathfindercod

Excellent review, bravo! Thank you for taking the time to do this. 

Did you try scout mode during gaming and what was your thought compared to sbx surround mode in FPS games?


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## benbenkr

Good review Evs! 
  
 My suggestion next is to play around with op-amps. The stock ones are decent for bright or neutral-ish headphones, but often now a days headphones as you already know are tilting towards the warmish side of things. Considering that, I really did hope that Creative went for LME49720 as the op-amps instead. It would have kept things more neutral, in a way that it wouldn't already affect neutral-ish headphones but at the same time wouldn't make warm headphones even bloatier (omg is bloatier a word?!).
  
Btw for anyone reading, op-amps are _not_ significant flavour tweaks. Often times it can be quite subtle and just noticeable enough.


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## conquerator2

stillhart said:


> Oh I see.  The best way to make sure you're bypassing all processing is to use WASPI.  That should answer your question pretty quickly.




Will do, thanks


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## conquerator2

@Evshrug

Would you mind posting all your X7 settings used for testing?
Cheers


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## Evshrug

conquerator2 said:


> I was mainly talking about the tonality of NFB7 vs X7. Not so much the price or SQ difference.
> I am a bit surprised by the Bifrost similarity.
> That's why I wonder whether the Bifrost and NFB7 really are that different or if there is some additional effect or processing at play on my part of the X7-line out (RCA) testing
> I would expect the NFB7 to outperform them... Just the tonality is starkingly different, even to me.




I choose to mention the well-regarded Bifrost because
A.) I have good experience with it, and
B.) I also mentioned the effect that motherboards/entry level DACs (particularly console-compatible ones) have on audio, and I wanted to give a reference as to why the X7's DAC is worth it's price.


I also must point out that, if you're using RCA line-outs to the NFB7, then really you're comparing amps... But that wasn't the impression I got from your earlier post? But anyway, on first impression the X7's stands up very well against well-regarded DACs, and in a review about the X7, that's as far as I'd go in depth. Honestly, it's close enough that it's not interesting enough right now for me to set up a controlled A/B analysis. At least not till I do the other stuff on my plate.


I pretty much already put my settings in the review, and I didn't just test with one setting. I suggest people play around and fit their taste 

Edit: Oh, and the SB z series of headphones had virtual surround designed for speakers when you use the speaker outs... So the processing may be different with the X7


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## conquerator2

evshrug said:


> I choose to mention the well-regarded Bifrost because
> A.) I have good experience with it, and
> B.) I also mentioned the effect that motherboards/entry level DACs (particularly console-compatible ones) have on audio, and I wanted to give a reference as to why the X7's DAC is worth it's price.
> 
> ...


 
 Well, I was under the impression that RCA line out would only utilize the X7's DAC, bypassing its amp and leaving the amping entirely to the external SA31SE, while going the S/PDIF out would utilize only the external devices [essentially leaving the X7 in pure DSP mode].
 How else would I compare the two DACs, other than using the same external amplifier for both? [X7's HP out unused]


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## Evshrug

Yeah, the RCA line-out of the X7 would stop the signal chain after the DSP and DAC (mostly), I just got confused by your wording (and staying up late the past few nights probably didn't help). This is the first time you mentioned the SA31SE...

How much did your total setup cost (DAC/amp) compared to the X7? If opamps and EQ gave the X7 the same FR character as your high-end setup (I've usually found gear to have very minor differences in FR coloration, relative to the differences between headphones), would you still consider the X7 very good sounding even if it's not top-of-the-line?

I'm not saying that the X7 can't be bested in ultimate sound quality, but I would say it's solved most of the glaring problems of the other gaming DSPs made for consoles, and competes well against other setups in its price bracket. The ZxR is also a strong value, but it doesn't have all of the X7's features... and the console DDL decoding, flexible source inputs for portables etc, Mac compatibility, and yup even the speaker amp are all unique and desirable for me.


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## conquerator2

I am not questioning the X7's value.
It is certainly very good, as I stated multiple times  I think I also did mention the SA31 in my initial comparison but it would be easy to miss 
Heck, without it, I couldn't use my DAC at all with consoles


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## martin vegas

Anyone tried the X7 with 32ohm headphones?


----------



## Stillhart

evshrug said:


> Another shortcoming with a motherboard or Mixamp, those "entry-level" devices have merely "entry-level" amps. With higher quality headphones, which generally feature higher impedance (Ω, or Ohms) and lower sensitivity, I had to double-amp with a dedicated headphone amp to hear the true level of dynamic and controlled quality the headphones were capable of. Nothing extra is needed in the X7, thanks to the Texas Instruments TPA6120A2 solid-state headphone amp chip "capable of driving high-end 600Ω headphones." *It certainly doesn't seem to be straining to supply my 150Ω Sennheiser HD700, 62Ω AKG K712, or 32Ω VMODA M-100; "*Spirit in the Sky" digs really dynamically into the artist-intended distorted guitar and sounds awesome (and yup, I have the Guardians of the Galaxy OST).


 
  
  


martin vegas said:


> Anyone tried the X7 with 32ohm headphones?


 
  
 Looks like Evs did.


----------



## Evshrug

conquerator2 said:


> I am not questioning the X7's value.
> It is certainly very good, as I stated multiple times  I think I also did mention the SA31 in my initial comparison but it would be easy to miss
> Heck, without it, I couldn't use my DAC at all with consoles




Ooooooh, "way" back in your original DAC comparison, before my review!

I'll get around to it eventually  currently there's just the desire to stop analyzing and just have fun with games, music, and movies. But I'll try eventually!


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## Evshrug

Some people were asking about Creative's standalone processing suite of software... This is Windows only, and having good hardware to back it up makes a transformational experience, but here it is:

http://software.store.creative.com/software/sound-blaster-x-fi-mb3/106-21569.aspx


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## Fegefeuer

Does it have the exact same features like the cards? Especially real 5.1 to HP virtualization? SBX of the R3 for instance doesn't and only knows stereo.


----------



## Evshrug

I haven't bought it so I honestly don't know, but it looks like it does have the full suite of processing, including OpenAL and EAX legacy support, and specifically says it has SBX headphone surround. I'm happy getting hardware to do the DSP stuff, but if other people already have DACs and stuff (and don't mind the X-Fi MB3 software running on the computer's main CPU) then its good just knowing all your options.


----------



## martin vegas

evshrug said:


> I haven't bought it so I honestly don't know, but it looks like it does have the full suite of processing, including OpenAL and EAX legacy support, and specifically says it has SBX headphone surround. I'm happy getting hardware to do the DSP stuff, but if other people already have DACs and stuff (and don't mind the X-Fi MB3 software running on the computer's main CPU) then its good just knowing all your options.


 

 It would be nice if they brought it out for consoles!


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## Fegefeuer

Sony will never pay for additional licenses per PS4 that are far from the "norm" like Dolby/Datasat multichannel codecs.


----------



## benbenkr

evshrug said:


> Some people were asking about Creative's standalone processing suite of software... This is Windows only, and having good hardware to back it up makes a transformational experience, but here it is:
> 
> http://software.store.creative.com/software/sound-blaster-x-fi-mb3/106-21569.aspx


 
  
 I talked about this several months ago on the Z/Zx/ZxR thread. Where motherboards using Creative's software suite did indeed have SBX out of the box.
  
 As a matter of fact, I have a motherboard (my main rig) with Creative's software suite installed. I was testing it out to see if it's the same as what I have with the Z/ZxR prior. 
  
 Unfortunately, the Creative software suite has a different implementation of SBX than that on the Z/Zx/ZxR/X7. 67% on the motherboard is different to 67% on a Z/ZxR. The difference in DAC probably played a role, but it's different enough that the software suite implementation sounds wrong. You don't even need to concentrate to find the difference, it's just there.
  
 Creative _might_ have changed this with new driver revisions, but I seriously doubt it as all their track record shows all they ever did for the Z series of cards were to replace the dates and revision number, then call it a new driver.
  
 Anyways, the big blow for the software suite is that SBX only works properly through the line-out or as most motherboards now a days call it: "dedicated" headphone port. Using optical does not work, so that's the bummer if you want to use it with an external DAC. I confirm this as I have a MSI Z87 GD65 and a Gigabyte Gaming7 , both of which has the Creative software suite.


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## Evshrug

^ Good to know.
 As I said before, I don't personally own the software since I wanted/bought a decent Soundcard, with the DSP built-in, before I even heard about the software suite.


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## conquerator2

Been testing the X7 in stereo/direct mode, listening to some of my favorite tunes.
 Much more impressed


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## Evshrug

Been switching between two AKGs, a Sennheiser, and a Stax, all are quite good but it's interesting how different each sound (the HD700 sound the most different and Tonally "dense" while the others have lots of "air")


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## pathfindercod

evshrug said:


> Some people were asking about Creative's standalone processing suite of software... This is Windows only, and having good hardware to back it up makes a transformational experience, but here it is:
> 
> http://software.store.creative.com/software/sound-blaster-x-fi-mb3/106-21569.aspx


  

  

 This is the software that came on one of my Sager laptops, it helps a lot with gaming and boosting sound in general..


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## martin vegas

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



 



 I found this on what hifis website!http://whf.cm/1s4pi12


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## pack21

*X7 chat communication workaround:
*

People with X7, check this out and let us if it works. 

My friend with a yamanha optical receiver connect to PS4 + mic 3.5 connect to usb audio dongle works. 

http://www.head-fi.org/t/690663/ps4-with-3-5mm-x2-type-headset/345


""
I am using one of those USB audio devices plugged into my PS4 (that has 3.5mm mic and headphone ports) and it gets treated as a 'headset' by the PS4. However just by doing a really simple step, I have managed to reproduce this 100% every time to where it will output chat audio over HDMI/optical to an AV receiver or whatever audio device we want to use.

*Step 1:* Turn on PS4 and connect up one of these USB audio devices (I assume a USB mic will also work the same way, though I haven't tried one yet). Let the PS4 recognize it and assign it to your profile if it asks you.

*Step 2:* Plug in a pair of headphones to the controller (or any 3.5mm jack, even an empty adapter works, as long as it isn't the headset that comes with the PS4 or anything else that will get recognized as a mic).

*Step 3:* Unplug the headphones (or whatever 3.5mm connection you used) from the controller.

*Step 4:* Enjoy chat audio coming from your headphones while being able to use a mic off the USB!


----------



## esde84

pack21 said:


> *X7 chat communication workaround:*
> 
> 
> People with X7, check this out and let us if it works.
> ...


 
  
 If you were using this method, you could run a cable from the headphone port on the usb device to the line in on the X7 which would allow you to control the chat volume level separately to the game audio, instead of having both chat and game through the same input.


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## pack21

But 3.5 audio jack on usb dongle is ony stereo, and i want optical input for digital sound. I thought I can balance chat on PS4 settings. 

At least if works well with this chat workaround, i'm very happy.

I will buy my X7 on 1 February, to make my own tests.


----------



## Evshrug

You can balance chat on PS4 party settings... or if you find any way to connect chat audio to the X7's line-in, that ought to enable you to have more mixing flexibility/accuracy. I find that the majority of the chat/game balance slider on the PS4 is a minor change with bigger change near the extreme ends of the adjustment.

Would be great if we could have an XBone option too. I don't own one, so I haven't tested it, but the only method I can think up right now:
Optical to X7
TRRS splitter in XBO controller
Mic plugged into splitter mic Jack
Cable from splitter audio jack to X7 line-in or mic in.

That would theoretically give full audio and mixer control to the X7, the only caveat is the XBone only automatically selects whether to send all game audio or just chat audio through the controller. We'd need a way to trick the XBone to just do chat audio through the controller (or better yet, JUST mic to the controller and all audio to "speakers" like you can select with the XBox 360, that way you don't have to connect controller>X7).


----------



## salbando

evshrug said:


> You can balance chat on PS4 party settings... or if you find any way to connect chat audio to the X7's line-in, that ought to enable you to have more mixing flexibility/accuracy. I find that the majority of the chat/game balance slider on the PS4 is a minor change with bigger change near the extreme ends of the adjustment.
> 
> Would be great if we could have an XBone option too. I don't own one, so I haven't tested it, but the only method I can think up right now:
> Optical to X7
> ...


 
 I can confirm this to work as I have an Xbox one and this is the setup that I use.
  
 Here is the copy paste from another post I made.
 I use the X7 with my Xbox one and I am able to use Xbox live chat function on there. I have the Xbox one headset adapter that I plug a headset y adapter into. I take the headphone out of the y adapter going into the line in on the X7. I then plug my microphone into the microphone jack on the y adapter.


----------



## esde84

pack21 said:


> But 3.5 audio jack on usb dongle is ony stereo, and i want optical input for digital sound. I thought I can balance chat on PS4 settings.
> 
> At least if works well with this chat workaround, i'm very happy.
> 
> I will buy my X7 on 1 February, to make my own tests.


 

 Correct me if I am wrong. You can output chat only through the usb device. The game audio (digital surround) could still be sent through optical.
  
 I do not have an X7 (yet) as I cannot justify the price at the moment, but I assume from this thread you can have surround from the optical source while also having stereo sources mixed in (eg music from a phone or in this case chat audio).
  
  


salbando said:


> I can confirm this to work as I have an Xbox one and this is the setup that I use.
> 
> Here is the copy paste from another post I made.
> I use the X7 with my Xbox one and I am able to use Xbox live chat function on there. I have the Xbox one headset adapter that I plug a headset y adapter into. I take the headphone out of the y adapter going into the line in on the X7. I then plug my microphone into the microphone jack on the y adapter.


 

 I assume that this would also work for the PS4, using the controller headset connection. sending only chat sound through the controller.


----------



## salbando

esde84 said:


> Correct me if I am wrong. You can output chat only through the usb device. The game audio (digital surround) could still be sent through optical.
> 
> I do not have an X7 (yet) as I cannot justify the price at the moment, but I assume from this thread you can have surround from the optical source while also having stereo sources mixed in (eg music from a phone or in this case chat audio).
> 
> ...


 
 I was hoping to try this on my PS4 and see how it goes but since the Xbox one has been difficult to work with (and i have been working alot of overtime at my job) I haven't had the time to play with the PS4 with the X7 right now.


----------



## Evshrug

esde84 said:


> I assume that this would also work for the PS4, using the controller headset connection. sending only chat sound through the controller.



Oh yes, EASILY, since the PS4 allows you to manually set the controller to just output chat audio.
I added this picture to the review: 

When I started streaming, before I got my USB mic, I had my 3.5mm lapel mic plugged into a splitter in my controller so my viewers could hear me, but I didn't have a mixer at the time to combine back the chat with the game audio so I couldn't hear the other players in the lobby... dark times indeed when I actually wanted to chat with friends while playing, I had to play in stereo with the very cheap DAC + wireless sound from the controller for game audio. Not bad if you don't know better, but several steps worse than an iPod or something.
USB mic was nice because it untethered my controller (I don't much mind wires, really, it's how I grew up gaming), but also chat and game audio are all piped through the optical output of the PS4. Now, with the x7 and a few cables I already have, I could balance game/chat audio with the X7, but I haven't bothered because the people I regularly play with have boosted their mic gain in PS4 settings anyway.


----------



## bigbeard

mine came in today and i love it. on my pc i have the schiit asgard 2 and bifrost uber...stereo for music, and i use my SBz DSP for games and movies.
  
 for my ps4, i got the X7...freaking love it.


----------



## pack21

evshrug said:


> Oh yes, EASILY, since the PS4 allows you to manually set the controller to just output chat audio.
> I added this picture to the review:
> 
> When I started streaming, before I got my USB mic, I had my 3.5mm lapel mic plugged into a splitter in my controller so my viewers could hear me, but I didn't have a mixer at the time to combine back the chat with the game audio so I couldn't hear the other players in the lobby... dark times indeed when I actually wanted to chat with friends while playing, I had to play in stereo with the very cheap DAC + wireless sound from the controller for game audio. Not bad if you don't know better, but several steps worse than an iPod or something.
> USB mic was nice because it untethered my controller (I don't much mind wires, really, it's how I grew up gaming), but also chat and game audio are all piped through the optical output of the PS4. Now, with the x7 and a few cables I already have, I could balance game/chat audio with the X7, but I haven't bothered because the people I regularly play with have boosted their mic gain in PS4 settings anyway.


 
  
  
  
 Good to know, given my initial fears have begun to emerge solutions that work.
  
 okay, so the controller wired solution works, and how about this wiring schematic only by USB audio dongle connected to the PS4 (mic wire + chat audio wire line-in 3.5/RCA to X7) doing the trick to put on and take a 3.5 jack from controller. If it works i prefer not to have cables  in the controller.
  
  
 anyone can do tests and confirm?


----------



## Fleat

pack21 said:


> Good to know, given my initial fears have begun to emerge solutions that work.
> 
> okay, so the controller wired solution works, and how about this wiring schematic only by USB audio dongle connected to the PS4 (mic wire + chat audio wire line-in 3.5/RCA to X7) doing the trick to put on and take a 3.5 jack from controller. If it works i prefer not to have cables  in the controller.
> 
> ...


 
 This is how I used the DSS2, and it should work just fine. Personally, I can't tolerate having things dangling off my controller either so I would definitely opt for the USB solution if I got the X7.


----------



## pack21

fleat said:


> This is how I used the DSS2, and it should work just fine. Personally, I can't tolerate having things dangling off my controller either so I would definitely opt for the USB solution if I got the X7.




Did you plug USB Audio dongle directly in PS4 or DSS2? I know DSS2 has 2 USB ports, and if you are connecting the USB Audio dongle on DSS2 (passthrough), things can be different from X7.


----------



## Fleat

pack21 said:


> Did you plug USB Audio dongle directly in PS4 or DSS2? I know DSS2 has 2 USB ports, and if you are connecting the USB Audio dongle on DSS2 (passthrough), things can be different from X7.


 
 I plugged the USB audio dongle into the DSS2 USB Out. I also tested with the Astro MixAmp and the USB dongle plugged directly into the PS4 with the audio output plugged into the MP3 port (MixAmp's microphone is poor quality).
  
 I don't have the X7, but I am fairly confident you should be able to set it up with the USB dongle without using the controller. The PS4 just treats the adapter as an audio input / output device and you select "Chat Audio" instead of "All Audio". And you can just mix in that audio output with the X7 the same way EVShrug did from the controller.


----------



## Evshrug

Yup, I just use a USB mic plugged into the PS4, no settings needed. You can also use a USB dongle (like a Syba on Amazon) and set it for chat audio like Fleat said, and wire a 3.5mm mic into that and a 3.5mm plug Male to RCA Male cable into the X7 so you can hear the party chat.


----------



## bigbeard

when using the virtual surround of the X7, are we supposed to set the in-game settigns to 5.1 sound?


----------



## RRod

Anyone know how X7 Linux functionality is? Specifically, does it get recognized as a surround device and can you use something like the iPad interface to get around any lack of Linux drivers for things like ProStudio?


----------



## Stillhart

bigbeard said:


> when using the virtual surround of the X7, are we supposed to set the in-game settigns to 5.1 sound?


 
  
 Yes, absolutely.


----------



## Evshrug

rrod said:


> Anyone know how X7 Linux functionality is? Specifically, does it get recognized as a surround device and can you use something like the iPad interface to get around any lack of Linux drivers for things like ProStudio?



I don't know firsthand, but my impression of Linux is that a big part of the "power and flexibility" is community-made open source drivers, and I THINK the X7 needs a driver for USB recoignition as a surround-capable device and communications device (and SPDF passthrough) if you want to use it that way. Honestly, I installed the drivers before plugging in my X7, so I don't know how generic OS drivers "see" it.

Of course, you could always find a way to get Linux to output Dolby Digital Live 5.1 out through optical, then the X7 will work digitally that way.


----------



## RRod

evshrug said:


> I don't know firsthand, but my impression of Linux is that a big part of the "power and flexibility" is community-made open source drivers, and I THINK the X7 needs a driver for USB recoignition as a surround-capable device and communications device (and SPDF passthrough) if you want to use it that way. Honestly, I installed the drivers before plugging in my X7, so I don't know how generic OS drivers "see" it.
> 
> Of course, you could always find a way to get Linux to output Dolby Digital Live 5.1 out through optical, then the X7 will work digitally that way.


 
  
 You can output AC3, though the interfacing is far from perfect. I'll wait and see if anyone tries it on any of the Linux forums/posts. Should be soon enough. I still don't know why Creative didn't make this an HDMI product.


----------



## Evshrug

Dunno, but they would need an HDMI input and passthrough output, and people would be clamoring for an optical port too. It's already pretty crowded back there. Ultimately optical is a more flexible connection.


----------



## RRod

evshrug said:


> Dunno, but they would need an HDMI input and passthrough output, and people would be clamoring for an optical port too. It's already pretty crowded back there. Ultimately optical is a more flexible connection.


 
  
 If I only gamed I wouldn't care, but having lots of movies it would be nice to have something that handled the uncompressed multichannel formats.


----------



## cdsa35000

rrod said:


> If I only gamed I wouldn't care, but having lots of movies it would be nice to have something that handled the uncompressed multichannel formats.



nvm HDMI 1.3 for pc is able to pass-through HDMI HD Audio: http://www.asus.com/Sound_Cards_and_DigitaltoAnalog_Converters/Xonar_HDAV13_Deluxe/

Sony standalone hdmi HP can do it: http://www.amazon.com/Sony-MDR-DS7500-Wireless-Surround-Headphones/dp/B005LA53D8


HDMI Audio Decoder: http://www.gefen.com/kvm/gtv-auddec.jsp?prod_id=8202


----------



## RRod

cdsa35000 said:


> They won't ever add the HDMI MC Audio in PC (usb) soundcards.
> The reason is HDCP copy protection, they don't want you to be able to rip any pefect digital copy's.
> Thats why the windows HDMI digital audio output can't passtrhu any surround/MC Audio, there's the useless formats tab with options DTS/DD/WMA that doesn't work.(try the test)
> 
> Sony standalone hdmi HP can do it: http://www.amazon.com/Sony-MDR-DS7500-Wireless-Surround-Headphones/dp/B005LA53D8


 
  
 My understanding was that you could get TrueHD and DTS-HD working through ALSA on Linux, but not through pulseaudio. And I can already get files with those tracks on them using something like MakeMKV; playing them is another matter.


----------



## cdsa35000

nvm


----------



## Evshrug

cdsa35000 said:


> nvm







rrod said:


> If I only gamed I wouldn't care, but having lots of movies it would be nice to have something that handled the uncompressed multichannel formats.




RRoD seems to have answered your question... The games probably don't have uncompressed audio in the source files, true for most games.

And I was interested in the Sony you posted, and had hopes for it, but apparently the Sony headphone surround processing is reviewed as sub-par. So you gain uncompressed audio, but the surround processing throws away that advantage, not to mention the compromises of wireless audio (tiny DAC/amp built into headphones, weight and closed earcups, etc). On balance it will still appeal to some, but I wouldn't put much stock into how much benefit comes of the LPCM HDMI input.


----------



## cdsa35000

I agree with you about the wireless crap, but LPCM Uncomp. 24bit/192kHz 7.1 will benefit the sound better than with Compressed 16bit/48kHz DD5.1/DTS5.1 audio.*
It will be only interesting if they have actual headphone/line outputs for wired connection.

I will wait till they're expired to $100 or so, then hack/mod inside for some wired analog outputs.
There's also a 9.1 version, didn't knew Sony were foussing into these medium?
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00J0XR10A/ref=psdc_172541_t3_B005LA53D8
-I gettit DS7500 is the Japan (1st) version with few differences like 7.1 etc.

* So when using DDL/DTSC encoded (comp. audio) digitaloutputs for external decoding will thus degrade the SQ.
Using (usb) soundcards analog outputs is better sounding as they are not compressed audiostreams, independ of whether the source audio is actually (un)compressed.


----------



## Evshrug

Reading more into those Sony models you posted, they're on-average very highly reviewed on Amazon, and people are impressed by Sony's headphone processing of surround from the various sound inputs. Sony also is known for being able to make really good headphones when making the effort, so coming with good ones is definitely a positive point. It also has 3 HDMI inputs, an HDMI output, optical input, and analogue input.

The second one you mentioned only has about a 4 hour battery life though. And for both models, the headphone is also the remote, so you have to use the Sony headphone made for it and there's nothing for wiring other headphones. Lastly, it uses the same wireless 2.8 gHz band as wifi, so you have to juggle between wireless channels to prevent interference between the sound system and wifi, but it's doable and not too hard FWIR.

I think these might be newer than the ones I researched before, I can't remember the faults of the other ones off the top of my head but overall this is an interesting setup option. I'd still be using a USB mic for PS4 chat.

There are some interesting Pro's and cons vs the X7 setup, on paper the X7 has stronger PC and gaming features as well as music features, the sound quality of the DAC, amp (and integrated powered-speaker option) out to help push the sound reproduction quality ahead and be usable with any wired headphones, while these Sony setups seem to be designed first for home cinema and have more decoding and signal-type options (fewer source options but adds the versatile HDMI option), can only be used with Sony's (apparently good) closed-back wireless headphones, doesn't have the "3D sphere" directional potential of the Creative but in a practical sense it should convincingly recreate a many-speaker home theater setup. Cost could also be a concern, and setup woes, but both systems are strong for different reasons.

The Sony might edge out the win for movies, they are on equal footing for games but the headphone selection for the X7 might put that ahead, and the X7 will be a better option for music and PC use. Oh, and X7 wins for tablet/smartphone source connection and app controls.


----------



## cdsa35000

Exactly, Sony's intended for Home Theater uses.

Instead of that VHP might better to get these HMZ with the bonus of 3D oled displays.
I'll wait for a cheap expired HMZT2 or HMZT3W 3D Videoglasses, they have 7.1 surround HP wired output for your own HP use.
They will be amazing for the existing (3D) FPS PC/PS3 games.
http://store.sony.com/wearable-hdtv-2d-3d-virtual-7.1-surround-sound-zid27-HMZT3W/cat-27-catid-3D-Personal-Viewer


Brings back the nostalgia decade's ago.
The frontier "HMD gaming", I still have this FMD200.
http://www.olympus-global.com/en/news/2000a/nr000204fmd200e.jsp

It was backlit LCD (2D) 266x226 res., using the standard "crappy" composite video, thus due lo-res. having screendoor grid and typical CVBS video artifacts.
However I remembered the fun and immersion FPV I got with PS1 Ridge Racer Type 4, it was amazing "in game" feel, those good old times.

http://mygaming.co.za/news/columns/59080-happy-birthday-ridge-racer.html
Later they brought out PS2 versions.
http://www.olympus-global.com/en/news/2000b/nr001012fmd20pe.jsp


Then later I got this "most" advanced (2D vers.) hi-res HMD.
http://www.mindflux.com.au/products/daeyang/cy-visor.html


Because the hi-res 800x600 LCOS, there was no screendoor grid, but it use (slow) micro flipping mirrors with frontlit lighting, so color images were wash out. 
I remembered using it as PC monitor in the morning laying in bed for quickly surfing and email checking before work. haha good times.
http://www.stereo3d.com/hmd.htm
---
SONY will be back in the game with:
http://www.officialplaystationmagazine.co.uk/tag/ps4-oculus-rift-vr-headset/


----------



## becnel51

@Evshrug with the setup you are describing on the PS4 with the X7, are you achieving virtual surround sound on your headphones? Is the USB dongle required for full chat functionality on the PS4? Could you give me an updated breakdown or diagram / images of this setup?
  
@salbando same questions but for the Xbox one?
  
 Sorry, I'm new to all this audio stuff, and I'm trying to wrap my head around these setups, (especially how everything connects to each console and then how everything connects to the X7) before I spend the $$ on an X7. I just really want to make sure of the following:
 - I'm able to achieve full virtual surround sound on both consoles with headphones
 - I'm able to use full chat functionality on both consoles
 - I'm able to independently drive / control / adjust, the audio settings and chat volume settings
  
 I plan to use this X7 for the Xbox One and PS4, so any advice / tips / recommendations (in terms of equipment and proper setups) would be greatly appreciated.
 Thanks.


----------



## salbando

becnel51 said:


> @Evshrug with the setup you are describing on the PS4 with the X7, are you achieving virtual surround sound on your headphones? Is the USB dongle required for full chat functionality on the PS4? Could you give me an updated breakdown or diagram / images of this setup?
> 
> @salbando same questions but for the Xbox one?
> 
> ...


 
 Yes you have virtual surround sound on your headphones and it sounds great it comes from the optical out on the console and make sure you change your console settings. The USB dongle is one method of incorporating chat on the PS4 another method is to take the chat audio out of the controller but you have to plug things in a certain order to achieve it.
  
 For the Xbox One the only way to do it is you have to use the headset adapter (which is not a very good product). I will post some images later tonight or maybe Evshrugs can. or if this link works its from another forum that it was talked about in with a simple drawing on how to complete this
  
 <a href="http://www.head-fi.org/t/534479/lightbox/post/11204299/id/1275212"><img src="http://www.head-fi.org/image/id/6887688/width/400/flags/LL"></a>
  
 The X7 will allow you to achieve virtual surround sound.
  
 Chat is possible through these setups but it does use a few extra cables and adapters. (Some do not like that as this doesn't favor couch gaming its better suited as a desktop setup due to the amount of cables.) 
  
 The mixer on the X7 software allows you adjust the inputs of 5 different sources at once so it is really flexible.




  
 What equipment do you plan on using. It will help us to help you set it up.
 Headphones? + Microphone?
 or
 Headset?
 If your looking for recommendations what is your budget? Have you read Mad Lust Envy's headphone guide as it contains alot of information.


----------



## becnel51

@salbando, Thanks, that info really helps. How are you using the Mixer, via a PC, or the mobile app? I was wondering how quick the response time was on the mobile app?
  
*Total Budget = $600 - $800 *(I had to increase the budget if I get the X7, since that will take up about $400)
*(I don't mind spending extra $$ for good quality products, that work, last, and have good warranties)*
  
 **This headphone / headset will be used for console gaming. I guess I'm looking for a really immersive headphone / set for all-around gaming. I tend to play more shooters, (BF4, COD, Halo, Destiny) but at the end of the day, I'm a gamer, so eventually I play a little bit of everything.**
  
*Headphone / sets I've considered (in no particular order): *
 - Sennheiser G4ME One
 - Sennheiser PC 363D
 - Beyerdynamic (Several Versions, could use advice, which would be best)
 - Philips Fidelio X1 or X2
  
 I'm partial to the Sennheiser's because they come with a Mic, but I have no problem getting a mic for the other headphones. For an external mic, it seems many people recommend:
 - ModMic 4.0
  
 I'm open to any and all suggestions for a really good setup for console gaming (headphones / sets / mics and so on...)
  
 I feel like I might be the "odd man out" on this site, since I intend to use this setup for console gaming. Also, the X7 actually appeals more to me, than a traditional set up of:
"Source - Mixamp - Y cable (one end for chat, one for audio) - Mic on chat end, headphone Amp on the audio end - Headphone"
  
 If I'm understanding everything correctly, it seems like the X7, replaces the need for the Mixmap and the headphone amp. I've also read posts, where people also use a Rolls Mx22, in this setup, to achieve better control of game and mic audio. It seems the X7, would replace the need for this also.  I've read comments about the amount of wires and clutter the X7 would have, but it seems to me like it would be a more organized setup than the traditional way. I don't know, just my opinion (I don't really mine wires coming off my controller).
  
 Anyway, any and all feedback is appreciated. Thanks.


----------



## Evshrug

becnel51 said:


> @Evshrug
> with the setup you are describing on the PS4 with the X7, are you achieving virtual surround sound on your headphones? Is the USB dongle required for full chat functionality on the PS4? Could you give me an updated breakdown or diagram / images of this setup?
> 
> same questions but for the Xbox one?



Updated image? I mean, the whole setup is laid out plain in the pic with every part on display, another picture wouldn't reveal anything new. As far as using a USB to 3.5mm audio and 3.5 mic adapter as a means to pass chat info, that's just a theory which others have verified for me, since I have a solution (technically two, but I just use the USB mic) I haven't bothered buying another.

The Xbox one setups with X7 are already explained too, this thread's not deep (and I have "chapter" markers in the OP), I could draw a diagram but I don't plan on paying for an XBO system so I can't take pics of that... perhaps I could request an XBO user to post theirs here, but soon I'll be moving this thread to the next topic (so that answers don't get lost like they do in Mad's thread and people end up repeating the same questions every day).

Speaking of Mad's thread, that's where you'll want to read gaming headphone reviews, here I'm more talking about setups. I also mainly game on consoles so that I don't have to troubleshoot PCs alongside using them, though I do have some PC games.

I mentioned the response time to adjusting X7 settings with the mobile app, TLR but asking questions anyway: it's not an issue.

I agree that the X7 is an organized setup, and I can see the X7 transitioning to different roles depending on where I use it and if I move to a new home. It doesn't have every bleeding-edge feature, but it has a ton of features that make it very flexible and basically future-proof, it's Creative's flagship product. If I was PC games only, I would've just stuck with an Omni.


----------



## lenroot77

Anyone here have any experience with the Asgard 2? I've been thinking of upgrading my fiio e09k, Think the Asgard 2 is a significant upgrade? Something better in the price range? Would I be better off just getting the x7? Just curious on people's thoughts/opinions???

Just looking to upgrade my sound a bit. Usually roll with my dt990s or the k7xx's.

Thanks


----------



## Stillhart

lenroot77 said:


> Anyone here have any experience with the Asgard 2? I've been thinking of upgrading my fiio e09k, Think the Asgard 2 is a significant upgrade? Something better in the price range? Would I be better off just getting the x7? Just curious on people's thoughts/opinions???
> 
> Just looking to upgrade my sound a bit. Usually roll with my dt990s or the k7xx's.
> 
> Thanks


 
 You might try the Matrix M-stage.  It's often compared to the Asgard 2, but it's a bit warmer so it pairs better with bright cans like the 990 and the K7xx.


----------



## Evshrug

lenroot77 said:


> Anyone here have any experience with the Asgard 2? I've been thinking of upgrading my fiio e09k, Think the Asgard 2 is a significant upgrade? Something better in the price range? Would I be better off just getting the x7? Just curious on people's thoughts/opinions???
> 
> Just looking to upgrade my sound a bit. Usually roll with my dt990s or the k7xx's.
> 
> Thanks




Mmmmmmmmmrreh, you know what my personal choice was (which pleases me), but with you as an E09k user, I'd be much more curious how you felt the X7 compares to what you're used to as both are built around the same high-spec TI chip except the circuitry around it and implimentation are very different, the X7 improving on the manufacturer's reference amp design.

From a more practical standpoint, the X7 has more features and benefits (iOS DAC? Yes please!), but I also have never met an owner of the Matrix M-Stage who wasn't pleased with their amp... By the same token, I have seen many people own the Asgard 2 but not be really excited about it. I guess I'd recommend you read more amp reviews?


----------



## lenroot77

evshrug said:


> Mmmmmmmmmrreh, you know what my personal choice was (which pleases me), but with you as an E09k user, I'd be much more curious how you felt the X7 compares to what you're used to as both are built around the same high-spec TI chip except the circuitry around it and implimentation are very different, the X7 improving on the manufacturer's reference amp design.
> 
> From a more practical standpoint, the X7 has more features and benefits (iOS DAC? Yes please!), but I also have never met an owner of the Matrix M-Stage who wasn't pleased with their amp... By the same token, I have seen many people own the Asgard 2 but not be really excited about it. I guess I'd recommend you read more amp reviews?




Thanks Evs and Still... The matrix m stage does appear to be a hell of an amp. Im very curious about it, but the all in one x7 pack is very appealing also. After more reading yesterday the Asgard 2 is off my list.


----------



## Evshrug

*"Night and Day," and Musings About Finding the "Endgame."*

Just to post my own un-asked-for mental meanderings on "Night and Day Difference!"

Obviously many people say that coming from an emotional place... The same place where they might say "it's like a lightbulb turned on, Eurika!" and it sinks in that they are hearing hi-fi music rather than hearing it diluted by the equipment. If music is important to the person and they... just... NEED to express the feeling that it's the same song but hearing it this way wakes up something inside, then I feel it's appropriate and fun to read them trying to express what's causing that huge grin. Audio should be magical and fun!

From a more metaphorical/logical reason why "Night and Day" might be appropriate, picture your front yard in the night and day. At night, there's still all the same grass and trees and road and poles, all the different instruments that make up your landscape. And usually there will be some moonlight and maybe a streetlight and some neighbor's lights, so it's not like you can't see, but perhaps some things are in the spotlight. I've had audio setups where I didn't feel a lacking of details, but definitely parts of it in the spotlight. Nighttime is also pretty subdued, most people and animals sleeping and the feeling that time is frozen. In the daytime, now your whole landscape is lit up, you can more easily make out the dimension and little details of it all. Typically sunlight also makes us feel more awake and alert, and clinically proven to elate your mood. Daytime is also when you're more likely to see people and animals active, there's more movement and change that happens during the day.

Just to keep readers from misunderstanding... Upgrades usually are measurably minor. Maybe just a little more bass impact, a little sweeter treble, a background instrument becomes easier to pick out, or the tonal character seems the same except instruments seem to eminate from different layers of depth/distance away from you, the headphone is comfortable to wear for an extra hour; an upgrade may change just few or even one of these things. However, even a small tweak can change the mood of your listening experience, going from "it's okay" to "Wow, this makes me feel great!" Logically, if each upgrade (above "junk" level generic headphones, though there are some semi-precious jewels among the low-price stuff) results in a minor incriment, the goal woud be to just upgrade till you find that "Eureka!" Moment. Once you find a headphone that takes your breath away and makes you really happy, other headphones won't make you even MORE happy, just make you really happy again for a different reason. I think this is why everyone's idea of an endgame setup is different. However, if you get addicted to the hobby, then there really isn't an endgame (sorry about your wallet!), curiosity will cause you to seek different ways that audio can make you happy, or to just try the new thing, even if you've already found a favorite. Maybe that's not logically "efficient," but if it makes you happy (and you keep a healthy budget), then WHATEV!

So, beyond just hyperbole and a bit of a cliché, "Night and Day" is also a very fitting metaphor. So go ahead and set the stage, but after that please go into more detail and share what is making you smile... from ear to ear!


----------



## inseconds99

evshrug said:


> I choose to mention the well-regarded Bifrost because
> A.) I have good experience with it, and
> B.) I also mentioned the effect that motherboards/entry level DACs (particularly console-compatible ones) have on audio, and I wanted to give a reference as to why the X7's DAC is worth it's price.
> 
> ...




How does the x7 work with the HD 700, the x7 just went on sale on Amazon for 279 I am looking to use it for gaming and music. Does the x7 work well for music as well as it does for gaming? If not would you recommend me something else? Thanks.


----------



## lenroot77

inseconds99 said:


> How does the x7 work with the HD 700, the x7 just went on sale on Amazon for 279 I am looking to use it for gaming and music. Does the x7 work well for music as well as it does for gaming? If not would you recommend me something else? Thanks.





Oh snap! Time to make an order!


----------



## lenroot77

inseconds99 said:


> How does the x7 work with the HD 700, the x7 just went on sale on Amazon for 279 I am looking to use it for gaming and music. Does the x7 work well for music as well as it does for gaming? If not would you recommend me something else? Thanks.




Check out Evs full review on this thread or Amazon! By the sounds of it he was very impressed with it musically.


----------



## inseconds99

lenroot77 said:


> Check out Evs full review on this thread or Amazon! By the sounds of it he was very impressed with it musically.




Just ordered it as the price is too good to pass up. If I don't like it or change my mind I can always return it or cancel the order. I hope it's good as I just ordered it over a jds labs O2/odac for gaming with my HD 700's for.


----------



## lenroot77

Been messing with my new x7 the last hour. Sounds fab!!!!
My only complaint is the phone app is a bit slow.


----------



## Stillhart

lenroot77 said:


> Been messing with my new x7 the last hour. Sounds fab!!!!
> My only complaint is the phone app is a bit slow.


 
  
 That's pretty good if it's your only complaint.  Amusing too as no other DAC/Amp I know of has a phone application.  lol


----------



## inseconds99

lenroot77 said:


> Been messing with my new x7 the last hour. Sounds fab!!!!
> My only complaint is the phone app is a bit slow.


 
 I have been playing with my X7 for the better part of 3 hours and I find it to be very very good, only thing is that it doesn't seem to be driving my HD 700's well. I am at max volume and I feel like its loud but it should be much louder. Am I missing something?


----------



## lenroot77

inseconds99 said:


> I have been playing with my X7 for the better part of 3 hours and I find it to be very very good, only thing is that it doesn't seem to be driving my HD 700's well. I am at max volume and I feel like its loud but it should be much louder. Am I missing something?




Have checked your sliders on the mixer?


----------



## lenroot77

stillhart said:


> That's pretty good if it's your only complaint.  Amusing too as no other DAC/Amp I know of has a phone application.  lol




It's a definite improvement over the dss and mixamp and not having to double amp is nice too. Everything just sounds so clear. There are all these little nuances I'm noticing on destiny that I hadnt heard before.


----------



## inseconds99

lenroot77 said:


> Have checked your sliders on the mixer?


 
 Yes they are maxed.


----------



## Stillhart

inseconds99 said:


> Yes they are maxed.


 
 Make sure you check all your Windows sliders too.  Sometimes background ones get turned down somehow...


----------



## inseconds99

stillhart said:


> Make sure you check all your Windows sliders too.  Sometimes background ones get turned down somehow...


 
 All slider seem good, there is a button in the amp sections that says 600hm headphones but don't turn it on unless you have them as this might damage your headphones. It's set to 32/300ohm and I kinda want to try the 600ohm setting but I don't want to blow my headphones up.


----------



## Stillhart

inseconds99 said:


> All slider seem good, there is a button in the amp sections that says 600hm headphones but don't turn it on unless you have them as this might damage your headphones. It's set to 32/300ohm and I kinda want to try the 600ohm setting but I don't want to blow my headphones up.


 
  
 Relevant:


----------



## Evshrug

inseconds99 said:


> All slider seem good, there is a button in the amp sections that says 600hm headphones but don't turn it on unless you have them as this might damage your headphones. It's set to 32/300ohm and I kinda want to try the 600ohm setting but I don't want to blow my headphones up.



Before you blow your headphones up (and your ears), try connecting to another source. Optical, bluetooth (with iPhone or whatever turned up to max), analogue, WHATEV. Oh, and turn down the X7's volume. Then, with the headphones on e table, start playing some audio. Shouldn't be totally blasting, therefore put the headphones on. Raise the volume, see if other sources get louder.

My roommate was sitting across from me when Windows was weirdly not connecting it's volume setting to the X7, so I turned down the X7 control panel volume a bit, up the windows volume thinking everything would be fine, and then played some OMG MUSIC AAAAAAAH! Whipped the HD700 off! On the desk they sounded like some damn desktop speakers. Turned down the volume (which as since worked fine), apparently I didn't lose my hearing because I distincltly heard my roommate say "Did you mean to do that?"

In summary, the X7 has enough juice to deafen you with the HD700 (even on low gain), but Windows is a weird and temperamental beast, and sometimes Borks things up. If you need help, go on Creative's site and start a live chat, or go to the tech support page and submit a support service request.


----------



## inseconds99

evshrug said:


> Before you blow your headphones up (and your ears), try connecting to another source. Optical, bluetooth (with iPhone or whatever turned up to max), analogue, WHATEV. Oh, and turn down the X7's volume. Then, with the headphones on e table, start playing some audio. Shouldn't be totally blasting, therefore put the headphones on. Raise the volume, see if other sources get louder.
> 
> My roommate was sitting across from me when Windows was weirdly not connecting it's volume setting to the X7, so I turned down the X7 control panel volume a bit, up the windows volume thinking everything would be fine, and then played some OMG MUSIC AAAAAAAH! Whipped the HD700 off! On the desk they sounded like some damn desktop speakers. Turned down the volume (which as since worked fine), apparently I didn't lose my hearing because I distincltly heard my roommate say "Did you mean to do that?"
> 
> In summary, the X7 has enough juice to deafen you with the HD700 (even on low gain), but Windows is a weird and temperamental beast, and sometimes Borks things up. If you need help, go on Creative's site and start a live chat, or go to the tech support page and submit a support service request.


 
 See on mine the volume knob is the windows sound going up and down. There is no separate volume, when I turn up my volume my windows volume goes up and down. I tried reinstalling and everything. It def gets loud but I can full crank it and it is no louder then my onboard volume.


----------



## Evshrug

inseconds99 said:


> See on mine the volume knob is the windows sound going up and down. There is no separate volume, when I turn up my volume my windows volume goes up and down. I tried reinstalling and everything. It def gets loud but I can full crank it and it is no louder then my onboard volume.




Mine does too, except that one time I (accidentally) manually borked it, haven't been able to duplicate the issue since. Have you tried any other sources yet???


----------



## Evshrug

lenroot77 said:


> Been messing with my new x7 the last hour. Sounds fab!!!!
> My only complaint is the phone app is a bit slow.



It's a tad annoying to have to reconnect in settings each time I switch off Bluetooth in general on my iPhone (battery reasons), and it's a tad annoying to navigate between panels as it saves changes to the X7, BUT like Still said, having an app at all is unique and extremely useful, and I actually like the delay when adjusting the DSP/EQ; adjust a slider, just less than a second later the change suddenly takes effect, giving my mental focus time to get ready to contrast what changed. I also usually don't make adjustments once I find what I like and get into a session, so that's not a usability problem, AND once I find all the settings I like for a headphone or genre I've made a habit of saving that as a preset. Custom presets are just as nice as "MyModes" for DSLR cameras, and make everything fast.


----------



## lenroot77

evshrug said:


> It's a tad annoying to have to reconnect in settings each time I switch off Bluetooth in general on my iPhone (battery reasons), and it's a tad annoying to navigate between panels as it saves changes to the X7, BUT like Still said, having an app at all is unique and extremely useful, and I actually like the delay when adjusting the DSP/EQ; adjust a slider, just less than a second later the change suddenly takes effect, giving my mental focus time to get ready to contrast what changed. I also usually don't make adjustments once I find what I like and get into a session, so that's not a usability problem, AND once I find all the settings I like for a headphone or genre I've made a habit of saving that as a preset. Custom presets are just as nice as "MyModes" for DSLR cameras, and make everything fast.




I do appreciate the option to stream music over bluetooth. According to the inter webs this should not degrade the music. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

My k7xx's just sound amazing! Just really happy with this thing. Even at 400 dollars i would have been happy.


----------



## Evshrug

Well, if you have AAC files, the X7 doesn't require the audio file to be compressed further and converted to another format on the fly. If you have a device supporting AptX, then you could have AIFF or FLAC files (I assume ALAC too, except iOS devices don't support AptX at this time) and the audio is sent with less compression than AAC! So, that's a thing.

Of course, the Host-Mode USB on the side is wired, and is higher output so it can charge an iPad while playing or charge a phone really fast.


----------



## Fleat

Evshrug, I appreciate all your feedback on the X7 thus far. It more or less solidified my decision to purchase it if it went on sale again.
  
 Fast forward to me emptying my wallet some more (thanks head-fi) and I spent the weekend testing out the X7 which left me quite impressed. It certainly seems to make the X2 more lively and I love the input mixing. I have USB host to my main PC, optical in from the PS4, line in from the Syba USB audio adapter for PS4 chat, and my laptop & phone hooked up via Bluetooth. It allows live mixing between all of the inputs, and it works very well.
  
 I spent around 10 hours playing Iron Banner in Destiny and 4-5 hours listening to music and enjoying other media. Here is some feedback on my brief time spent and please keep in mind that these are my personal opinions.
  
*Pros*
 Excellent dac and amp
 Input mixing is useful and effective
 Software is solid on PC and Android
 Multiple headphone outputs
 Bluetooth audio quality is solid
 Works with a wide range of headphones (worked great with 600ohm DT-990's & many others)
 Changing the Game->Voice balance doesn't lower the power output
 No hissing or noise at any volume
 Built in headphone stand
 Philips Fidelio X2 + X7 is a blissful setup
  
*Cons*
 Expensive even at the "sale" price
 Messy setup for PS4 sound & chat (required Syba USB Audio adapter and included 3.5 to RCA cable)
 Using an app is less convenient than turning the knob on the MixAmp Pro for game / voice balance
 SBX Surround is less effective than Dolby Headphone (requires more testing with a larger variety of games)
 Somewhat unsightly and much larger physical footprint
 Reliant on Creative for firmware and software updates
  
  
 At this point, I think the pros outweigh the cons for me. I plan to do more in-depth testing of the surround sound implementation and compare it in more PS4 games to the Astro MixAmp Pro. I also plan to compare SBX Surround between the Sound Blaster Z and the Sound Blaster X7 for PC games. I am curious to see if those sound the same at the same levels.


----------



## Evshrug

When you say USB host mode to PC, are you using the rear Micro USB port or the full sized USB port on the left side of the X7? I didn't know the host-mode USB COULD connect to the PC!

Are you using the X7 on a desk? How often do you have to rebalance chat/game? I've been happy every time but once just using the default game/chat balance, the one time I wasn't was when a friend had his mic further away... I highly recommend trying a USB mic if one shows up on Massdrop or something. The more I use the X7, the more I forget about the mic... I just think of the X7 as mostly a source component with a nice amp and DSP. Which is why I was surprised last night when my GF called during a gaming session and the X7 switched to the call. Nice not to have to take off my headphones to pay attention to her (and I didn't stop playing, either XD ), not once did she mention the mic quality or anything about the call being different. So, that's cool I guess.

That lack of hiss and noise is what the 127 dB DAC (and clean, discrete, isolated amp) is all about, premium components are so clean that, with no music or game playing, you won't hear the difference between the amp being off or on besides the lights and click from inside the amp (a relay). With a lower noise floor, it seems like subtle nuances come forward in the audio. When you compare the X7 to the Z, your motherboard, or your mixamp, listen to a well-recorded live song... You may be able to sense the size of the room from how the performance bounces around off the walls. It's pretty cool!

Creative support and I have been communicating about the E1, we've come to the possibility that it might be a lemon. Possibly the first one with my particular issue (though everyone must press firmly till analog interconnect cables "click" into place, which is odd next to the more "normal" USB connection). We're going to exchange it.

Tomorrow starts my 2-day weekend, hopefully I'll start my YouTube playlist on different DSP headphone units, and hopefully get a lot of views


----------



## pack21

that sounds creamy to my ears. 

 I can't wait for Monday to ordering my X7. I've been waiting to sell my Mixamp but is done now.

 I hope here in Europe Creative has a quick delivery service.


----------



## Fleat

evshrug said:


> When you say USB host mode to PC, are you using the rear Micro USB port or the full sized USB port on the left side of the X7? I didn't know the host-mode USB COULD connect to the PC!
> 
> Are you using the X7 on a desk? How often do you have to rebalance chat/game? I've been happy every time but once just using the default game/chat balance, the one time I wasn't was when a friend had his mic further away... I highly recommend trying a USB mic if one shows up on Massdrop or something. The more I use the X7, the more I forget about the mic... I just think of the X7 as mostly a source component with a nice amp and DSP. Which is why I was surprised last night when my GF called during a gaming session and the X7 switched to the call. Nice not to have to take off my headphones to pay attention to her (and I didn't stop playing, either XD ), not once did she mention the mic quality or anything about the call being different. So, that's cool I guess.
> 
> ...


 
 Sorry, I should have clarified better. I am using the Micro USB port to the PC. I have not tested the USB Host feature yet.
  
 I am using the X7 on a desk setup where I have my PC, PS4, and Xbox One. I have HDMI runs to my LG 55" OLED on the other side of the office (which will eventually be in wall runs). I find myself having to balance things quite a bit because I play with 4-6 different people on a regular basis who all have very different microphone levels. A significant chunk of my time has also been in Destiny where the game gets ridiculously loud during specific encounters for end bosses etc (I am sure you are aware). I could remedy this by balancing heavily towards voice chat and it would solve this problem, but I like to have the game & voice levels comparable to each other.
  
 I definitely agree that it is nice having an all in one "source", and it is really the largest motivating factor in me keeping it. Having to swap my headphones between all of my different devices gets really tedious, and the mixing fits the bill perfectly for me. It allows me to hear the sound on a quick youtube video (from my phone or PC) without impacting the people I am in a chat party with on the PS4. Last night, I mixed the sound from Netflix on my laptop via bluetooth with the game sound from Destiny on the PS4.
  
 I have considered the USB microphone route, but my home is kind of hectic and I need a physical mute button. I did test out my Blue Yeti for fun on the PS4, and the recording quality was impressive but it sees it as an audio input & output device (and the dedicated mute button doesn't work). I am currently using the V-MODA BoomPro Mic, and it isn't nearly as sensitive with background or ambient noise as well which is nice. With that said, I may pick up a snowball if it popped up at the right price just to test out a setup similar to yours.
  
 I absolutely agree that the quality of the DAC and amp are excellent. I am going to try to get my hands on some other equipment to compare it to since what I have is easily bested by it. I would love to see where this fits in $->impression wise for my own ears. That is a shame about the E1, and hopefully Creative can get you a working one. I will be curious to see what your impression of the E1 will be like.


----------



## pack21

Hi* @Evshrug, ** *





  
  
  
  
 Why haven't you call my attention that i already have this adapter from my Etymotic ER-4PT? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 So, i assume that with this adapter i can safety use any Sensitive/low impedance IEM in X7 i just bought today, right? 
  
  




  
  


> Ingenious adapter converts the low-impedance Etymotic ER-4PT (or older 4P model) in-ears to same basic impedance as the 100-Ohm ER-4S model. Adapter restores some high frequency response normally delivered by ER-4S when used with a dedicated head-amp and allows for clearest musical detail. Like the ER-4S, the ER-4PT in tandem with this short adapter cable will definitely sound better with a headphone amp. So, a great way to own 'two' earphone options in the Etymotic ER-4 line of headphones!Etymotic ER-4~to~ER-4S adapter cable measures approx 3.5'-inches long with 'mini' 1/8' (3.5mm) jacks and a nifty curved plug design featuring gold-plated terminations. *Note: This adapter is also handy for any "ultra" sensitive/low impedance earphones when paired with a 'high output impedance' headphone amp to achieve proper impedance matching and damping factor.*
> 
> 
> Product Features:
> ...


 
  
 PS: kidding.


----------



## Evshrug

^ I mean, years ago I considered making one. I caught that you're kidding, but honestly I haven't tried using one. UE has something similar for like $10. The question is, does this really improve output dampening so a sensitive IEM "sees" a lower "output" impedance, or is it really just increasing the load on the amp (and the headphone "sees" now an 80-ohm output impedance)? Idk for sure.


----------



## conquerator2

I stand corrected. I've been using the X7 as a dedicated DAC with my SA31SE with both games in SBX and music without and I gotta say, it kicks some serious Schiit. Musical, dynamic but still has a fairly good amount of detail.
 Pretty good!
 [I am using it in absence of my sold NFB-7 while waiting for my Gungnir] This is actually a pretty good stand-up for the time being, indeed!


----------



## RRod

evshrug said:


> ^ I mean, years ago I considered making one. I caught that you're kidding, but honestly I haven't tried using one. UE has something similar for like $10. The question is, does this really improve output dampening so a sensitive IEM "sees" a lower "output" impedance, or is it really just increasing the load on the amp (and the headphone "sees" now an 80-ohm output impedance)? Idk for sure.


 
  
 From what I've read the location of the resistors in the ER-4P are such that putting an extra on the end is essentially the same as adding impedance to the IEMs and "turning them" into the 4S. This is harder when it comes to replicating the 4B due to the extra capacitor in the latter.
  
 http://rinchoi.blogspot.com/2012/08/p2b-adapter-for-etymotic-research-er-4p.html
  
 I have gotten alternative opinions that the adapter adds to the output impedance of the amp, which would seem to do the opposite of what people want. So I'm still just as confused as you are


----------



## Evshrug

We need access to scholarly documentssss!


----------



## bigbeard

Can the x7 decode dts? Seems like a poor decision, if it can not.


----------



## conquerator2

bigbeard said:


> Can the x7 decode dts? Seems like a poor decision, if it can not.


 
 It can't unfortunately.


----------



## bigbeard

Do some of you think it would be worth it if i buy a dts decoder for the ps4?

can i hook up a decoder to the ps4, then hook the decoder up to the x7, so sound goes through the high quality dac for sound fidelity?


----------



## Stillhart

bigbeard said:


> Do some of you think it would be worth it if i buy a dts decoder for the ps4?
> 
> can i hook up a decoder to the ps4, then hook the decoder up to the x7, so sound goes through the high quality dac for sound fidelity?


 
  
 At that point, why not just get an AVR?


----------



## conquerator2

stillhart said:


> At that point, why not just get an AVR?


 
 Isn't the DSP inferior most of the time? Apart from the few that support DH or other decent DSP implementations, but those aren't very common.


----------



## bigbeard

I already have an x7


----------



## Stillhart

conquerator2 said:


> Isn't the DSP inferior most of the time? Apart from the few that support DH or other decent DSP implementations, but those aren't very common.


 
  
 Inferior in that it doesn't give as good positional accuracy, perhaps.  But inferior SQ?  Don't know.  I'm still trying to figure out why you'd want to downmix DTS to stereo instead of using Dolby virtual surround, I just assumed it was for SQ.
  


bigbeard said:


> I already have an x7


 
  
 Good reason.  But if you just want good stereo sound, you can send already send stereo through the X7.  No need to add a separate device to downmix DTS.


----------



## bigbeard

I use my x7 solely for my ps4. I dont want just stereo sound, i want dts surround.


----------



## Stillhart

bigbeard said:


> I use my x7 solely for my ps4. I dont want just stereo sound, i want dts surround.


 
  
 So you want to hook up a device that converts DTS to Dolby and the hook that up to a device that decodes Dolby into SBX.  That doesn't seem like it would give better sound than just using Dolby in the first place.  But I'm all for your experimenting and letting us know!  It'd be pretty cool if it worked.


----------



## bigbeard

stillhart said:


> So you want to hook up a device that converts DTS to Dolby and the hook that up to a device that decodes Dolby into SBX.  That doesn't seem like it would give better sound than just using Dolby in the first place.  But I'm all for your experimenting and letting us know!  It'd be pretty cool if it worked.


 
 i don't understand. why would i convert DTS to dolby? The ps4 has an option to output either. Doesn't DTS send 5.1 audio just as dolby would? Am i wrong? I know for certain that DTS offers sound with less compression.


----------



## Stillhart

My understanding is that the X7 can process stereo or Dolby.  I'm unclear on what signal you plan on sending to the X7 if it's not one of those...


----------



## conquerator2

stillhart said:


> So you want to hook up a device that converts DTS to Dolby and the hook that up to a device that decodes Dolby into SBX.  That doesn't seem like it would give better sound than just using Dolby in the first place.  But I'm all for your experimenting and letting us know!  It'd be pretty cool if it worked.


 
 Can't you convert DTS to DH/SBX?
 Assuming there is one device that could do it, which there isn't... That'd be the killer we've all wanted with a HDMI pass-through even! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			






stillhart said:


> Inferior in that it doesn't give as good positional accuracy, perhaps.  But inferior SQ?  Don't know.  I'm still trying to figure out why you'd want to downmix DTS to stereo instead of using Dolby virtual surround, I just assumed it was for SQ.


 
  
 Yeah, I meant spatial cues only. SQ might very well be better as some AVR have decent or even beefy DACs/Amps.


----------



## Stillhart

I'm not trying to be difficult, I'm genuinely confused.  If you crosscode DTS to DH, you lose any benefit DTS was giving you in the first place, so what's the point?


----------



## Evshrug

bigbeard said:


> Do some of you think it would be worth it if i buy a dts decoder for the ps4?
> 
> can i hook up a decoder to the ps4, then hook the decoder up to the x7, so sound goes through the high quality dac for sound fidelity?



What kind of output would the "DTS decoder" have?
Or, perhaps the better question, which brand/product in particular are you thinking of?

I personally wouldn't bother. Most games' source files are already at a compressed file bitrate, so lossless output doesn't add anything to files that are already compressed. You're trying to find something that was trimmed out in the first place. For some reason, the anecdote that's sticking in my head is a redwood tree: if you stand near the base and look up, you can't see the top of a redwood tree. Game files already have the peak of the redwood tree chopped off. If you imagine the compression of DTS or Dolby as high tunnels, DTS is a tunnel higher than our topless redwood sound tree, but so is Dolby, so either way we're seeing as much of the tree from below as we can.

I also think that not equipping the X7 with DTS decoding is a missed opportunity, but I really doubt it will make a noticably difference anywhere except well-recorded BluRay movies.


----------



## conquerator2

For anyone interested, I tested the highlighted step in the X7's owner's guide and it works. For anyone who'd wish to disable Bluetooth for whatever reason. It is easily reversible, though slightly obnoxious. [EDIT: nevermind, holding the power button for a few seconds also resets it and so does holding the three buttons in sequence again. It's fairly easy then.]
 The BT related features still behave the same [holding the power/BT button still makes it blink blue, suggesting it's pairing, etc.] but the BT module is indeed off, so it's only a visual mishap, and is no longer detected by my phone.
 Just FYI...


----------



## hi2chris

For the workaround to get non usb mic to work with the ps4, did anyone find an adapter that worked and fit into the ps4 directly without the need for an extender?


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

Hi


----------



## Evshrug

Howdy!


----------



## Stillhart

Sup?


----------



## AxelCloris

Bonjour, I'm a French model.


----------



## Stillhart

axelcloris said:


> Bonjour, I'm a French model.


 
  
 "There, how do I look?"
 "Like a cheap French harlot!"
 "French?!?"


----------



## AxelCloris

stillhart said:


> "There, how do I look?"
> "Like a cheap French harlot!"
> "French?!?"


----------



## Varingjar

You guys are great! I have learned a lot the past few days going through the forums and ended up getting the X7. I had to start using a headset again and the Xbox One was killing me with the sound quality. My Windows 10 computer sits next to my Xbox One which allows me to connect the X7 to both. Using the Xbox Party App on the Windows 10 computer I have both game audio and chat audio working with no wires out of the controller!


----------



## Evshrug

*My SBX settings and exploration
Article writing/editing in-progress...*


One of the most major selling points of Creative products for me is the software and sound processing. It has a ton of features and some of them could use a little explaining, but FORTUNATELY the SBX and Crystalizer Voice sections (on those with Microphones) are basically the same across most of their devices. So, here's a general overview of each feature!

With SBX surround set to 67%, I couldn't really feel an immersive 3D effect very clearly at all. It's like the rear speakers are removed... Almost exactly like what the graphic shows when you have the slider lower. When you turn up the Surround effect, it REALLY makes A Big, NOT KIDDING YOU, difference. I would describe increasing the surround % as having the effect of either "rotating" the surround speakers from the position of being near your side (like a clock hour hand positioned at 3:30 and 8:30) to being more behind you (respectively, like 4:30 and 7:30) or emphasizing the volume and "distance away" of rear cues. If SBX is only being fed a stereo signal, there's no rear cues and a sound playing with equal balance between L/R speakers will have a greater sense of distance in front of you (instead of being positioned inside your head, right between your ears. The benefit of using less % is less reverb or processed sound, but for gaming I still think it sounds quite good at 100% (YMMV, but at least you can customize it the way you like). I usually don't use Surround for music other than pop, and even then I usually don't bother.

Crystalizer (compressed audio restoration) doesn't seem to help high-quality audio. The effect seems to be a bit of bass and treble emphasis to compensate for how low-bitrate files have poor extension to highest highs and lowest lows, and an effort to expand the volume dynamics between loud and soft, making the audio seem more lively and engaging. If you have good sound files, the effect is too much. I turned it off and soundstage improved (like another step from maxing surround), the Crystalizer seemed to create the harsh trebles I was hearing before while also smoothing out minute cues that expand the soundstage. Seems logical to me. Turning it low seems to help, but I'm liking it best turned off. Maybe this would be good with MP3's (as it's designed for), but in gaming, just uncheck it.

 Smart volume seems similar to Scout Mode. I think I'd prefer smart volume in the "night" setting over scout mode if running a late night marathon, so useful then, but generally it crushes the sound field together and I'd refrain from activating it for max quality. Definitely made menus wonky and background music... wrong.

Dialogue Plus: Actually, I had this on before defaulting and tweaking, as I tend to like a little help making out voices sometimes. Doesn't seem to hurt immersion much, but maybe the audio was slightly better without the effect? Hard to tell really, if you think it's a benefit try it for yourself.

Lastly, bass... Actually, I'm kinda feeling the ambiance created, just by turning... Ooh yeah this is fun  Where was I? Did I mention I'm listening while typing? Lol. But yeah, turning the bass setting "on" at the default position adds to the ambiance and SLAMMM! I like that you can aim the "cossover point" to emphasize a boost in the sub-bass range. To paraphrase Creative's description of the effect, it boosts harmonic frequencies that are an octave or so up from the bass, which tricks your brain into hearing stronger bass. Whatever, this feature works, and it works well without causing note bloom/mushiness. The body from this eez fun ^____^

Ok, so the graphic equalizer settings only worked on the Recon3D when in PC mode, and of course that applies for the Omni and internal sound cards too (which are PC only anyway), but the E-series portables and the X7 can apply EQ using the mobile app. There's only like 8-bands of adjustment, but if you have a headphone that is too colored then the EQ is very handy for broad corrections. It also does it very well, specially designed to prevent clipping. So if your headphones have recessed mids, too much bass, or shrill treble you just need to tame a bit, this will be useful to you.

Tested with my Q701 plugged directly into the Recon3D, playing "The Deal" cinematic from Starcraft 2 in full, each time I made a tweak. I listened for rear sounds (the fluid wires snapping off and waving behind you off screen was cool, also violins during title screen seem to come from behind) Starcraft2 is set to Recon3D as output device, speaker setup Surround (not 5.1 or 7.1), reverb is checked (taste thing), sound quality high. Live in-game surround testing will have to wait, too tired now.

My final and recommended settings, today, are with SBX mode on, Surround checked on and maxed, Crystalizer off, Bass checked on at default values, Smart Volume off, Dialogue Plus on at default (just kinda left it on, maybe it helps to keep balanced with Bass?). The Q701 scaled well with a little EQ, we'll see of I still like the bass on (or at a lower crossover point so only lowest bass is emphasized) once I play an FPS. Edit: I have enjoyed these settings for years with FPS games, though I prefer to set the bass boost "crossover" to like 60 Hz.


*CrystalVoice suite*
I consider the mic input panel a separate "suite" of adjustments from the SBX outputs. Most models offer effects, echo cancellation, and smart volume, but pickup focusing and background noise cancellation are only available when you have a stereo microphone.




FX is a bunch of voice effects... Pretty self explanatory, more for fun than utility. You could use this to make trolling YouTube videos, but nobody would believe most of these effects are anywhere near your real voice. I think kids could have a blast with this, but honestly... I've never used this.


----------



## conquerator2

Interesting. With the slider at 67% I don't find all that much difference compared to the max 100% setting. I usually find the 67% a bit more natural and less processed sounding and the 100% a bit better rear cues and more artificial sounding, though the difference being rather small. With headphones that image really well [My former HE-560 for example] I found the 67% more preferable by a slight margin, though the 100% had slightly more accurate rears. They were both serviceable enough as far as rear cues go though, and SQ wise, the 67% felt more realistic... So for me, with the aforementioned headphone it was anywhere from a toss-up to a slight preference for the 67%.
 I always leave all the other settings to off 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
 Thought a slight bass boost is... could be pleasing


----------



## Evshrug

Oh, I strongly feel that personal preference ultimately rules the day, and affect people differently. For me, 67% sounded almost flat with the Recon3D and Q701, but I've found it to work ok with my newer/nicer setups with good amping... but for me, 100% has always sounded better, always helped rear cues. Your mileage may vary.


----------



## Fegefeuer

I moved from 67% to 100% finally as pure immersion over slight loss of fidelity.


----------



## Evshrug

bavinck said:


> If it priced right, with good sound and dsp (noise floor in the mixamp sucks) and can handle chat properly for ps4 I am all in




•The E5 is $200 (though sometimes on sale), the G5 is adding at least one feature to this, so we'll see about price.
•If the G5 truly is based on the E5, then the noise floor is inaudible on 32 ohm and up headphones, so that'll be quite good, though the noise floor is audible on my IEMs. The E1 is silent with my IEMs and has a much longer battery life, buuuuuuut it doesn't do justice with harder to drive headphones, like the E5 can. Optimized gear selection! Btw the E1 is still stronger than the PS4 controller jack's amp 
•the E5's mic works flawlessly with the PS4, in fact with it's noise-canceling and smart volume it's actually more convenient than the Snowball USB mic I usually use.

Right now I usually use my X7 at my computer/console gaming station, but the E5 goes with me between bed and living room TV if I want to use headphones, and was a real boon when I took a vacation to RMAF in Denver. When the G5 comes out, I'll probably use that at my gaming station and put the X7 with the TV (tv shows beg for the smart-volume feature!), and, ah, maybe put the E5 up for a tour with thread regulars.


----------



## Evshrug

Forgot to mention, Creative E5 review is up!
http://www.head-fi.org/products/sound-blaster-e5-24-bit-192khz-high-resolution-usb-dac-portable-headphone-amplifier/reviews/14251

*Sound Blaster E5 to the Rescue!*
*One device to hook up your headphones to... Basically anything.*

In the 1980's, there was a Man. So manly was this Man, he could fix or fashion any tool from materials on hand, his name became a verb for finding unusual uses for paper clips, chewing gum, and battery acid, and earned a capital M in Man from me for being so clever and self-reliant. A combination of handyman and Sherlock. Most of you already know, I'm thinking about MacGyver. Now, Creative Labs have cooked up a pretty clever little portable product in the Sound Blaster E5 that is festooned with so many input and output options, and accomplished it in such a capable manner, that I can MacGyver myself into virtually any audio setup to complete the chain between audio and headphones, and I can feel just a little bit as cool as he.

Full disclosure, I knew about the E5 and wanted one, so I jumped at the opportunity when Creative posted on Head-Fi that they were looking for reviewers for this and a few of their other new items. I figured, I've tried so many other surround-processor devices and most of Creative's products of this type, I should apply and let you guys know how the E5 stacks up. Neither Creative or MacGyver have paid me for this review.




*Stats N'at*
Before MacGyver could deactivate the laser beam grid blocking his progress, he had to understand the constituent parts and nature of the gear he had on him or around him, so let's start with what you get with the E5 and it's various features and connections.

 ​

In the box, you get the E5 itself, which is a DSP, DAC (Cirrus Logic CS4398), dual headphone amp (Texas Instruments TI6120A2), and mic (with ADC), but also you get a bold red micro USB cable (the new ones like on android smartphones and Playstation 4 controllers), a 1m optical cable (yeah I used metric, and it's a Toslink to Mini-Toslink connector cable), a stout 45° angle stand and screw mount, some attachment rubber bands, a map of various setup/cable wiring options and instructions, two warranty papers, and something in Singaporean which I also assume is a warranty/thank you card.

The power aspects of the E5 are kinda balanced between a portable and desktop amp. Battery on the E5 lasts up to about 8 hours, basically I can use it for two or three days if away from power. That's not as great efficiency as an amp specifically made for sensitive portables, but it does have enough power for my AKG K612 to sound linear and full... Which, by the way, requires a higher volume setting than the 600 ohm DT880 for the same apparent loudness. Output impedance on the headphone jacks is between 2.2 and 2.4 ohms, pretty ideal for most headphones except the most sensitive IEMs. Speaking of IEMs, my Custom Art CIEMs and entry-level RHA IEMs pick up a little background hiss that is easy to ignore once the audio starts, with no hiss for my 32 ohm Oppo PM-3 or V-MODA M-100.

 

The ports really help to define what you can do with this magic black box. Looking at the pictures, I'd just like to clarify what some of the ports are/do. There's two headphone jacks by the protected volume dial, the side to the right of that has the power button which also can be held to activate Bluetooth pairing, then the SBX activation button which can answer Bluetooth calls, a gain switch. Design wise, the two buttons and switch are contained in a trapezoid-shaped flat panel, which fits neatly with the shape of one side of the desk stand. Then there's three LEDs indicating battery level. The next face around the right is the wide picture above. The two ports on the left are combination 3.5mm and mini-Toslink ports, though the input is a TRRS 3.5mm port and the output is a TRS 3.5mm. Then, the USB host port is for connecting to a smartphone or tablet source... I can plug in my iPhone 5S with just the charging cable that came with it and get digital sound output. No CCK required! It doesn't charge my iPhone, but it charges Androids for a bit... Greatly sacrificing the E5's battery life. The furthest right micro-USB port is for charging the E5 and PC/Mac connection. The E5 is pretty fat for a portable, but I was surprised how well it fit into my cargo shorts pocket and strapped to my iPhone without being as tall as my FiiO E12. I'd call it a "full-sized portable."

  


*Sound*
I played some high-rez FLACs of music using VLC (and some fun stuff from iTunes), with SBX and any EQ off the sound is pretty good: it's overall pretty clean, though maybe a slight upper mids emphasis which makes vocals and guitars sound a tad more romantic. This is all so slight and close to flat, that you have to be really used to your headphone on another amp to hear the difference; without A/B testing this will sound like a nice flat amp. Plugging in my headphones to the E5 wired to my iPhone 5S was an immediate improvement compared to iPhone alone; every note more crisp, nuances revealed so the playing stage is more transparent (and thus relative depth of a great recording is easier to sense). My next description will be familiar to most people who have owned a nice amp: audio is a bit more engaging, like as if you can feel the artist's emotion or the music is "full of life" rather than dull or a soda-gone-flat. Compared to Creative's older Sound Blaster Z or Recon3D USB, I prefer this E5, and I prefer it over gaming DSPs such as the Turtle Beach DSS (crisper and more powerful) and Astro Mixamp (crisper, smoother, more powerful, and less hissy).


*What Makes It Cool?*
How have I MacGyvered the E5 to my uses? Weeeeell, of course I played Battlefield 3 and Starcraft II on PC, and SBX was particularly awesome with Borderlands 2 with the OpenAL "Hack" to enable true 3D surround. I can use the PC/Mac software suite or the mobile app to tweak SBX and EQ. My Fiancé and I were watching a TV show off my AppleTV which had really bad volume jumps between music and dialogue, and SBX's smart volume feature saved me from having to change the volume all the time (and save my sanity). I took the E5 with me to RMAF, where it became PARTICULARLY cool and useful beyond just a portable DAC/Amp. I could A/B headphones of nearly the same sensitivity rapidly using the two headphone jacks... I couldn't plug in the HiFiman HE-1000 at the same time as the HiFiman Edition X, but high gain did quite good with the HE-1000 (that headphone has marble-like solid bass!), and then a quick flick of the gains switch to low and I could listen to the Ed X with the same song file, DAC, and Amp. Doing that made it really easy to set a baseline for comparing ALL the variety of headphones at RMAF (except the Stax... Heh). And if I wanted to test out an amp, I could use the E5's line-out, if I wanted to use a DAC I could just use the E5 as a transport to bridge the songs on my phone to the optical input of a DAC!


[COLOR=FF00AA]Hifiman Edition X, Sound Blaster E5, and my iPhone, playing a Mirror's Edge video with surround processing baked in.
And I look COOOOOL![/COLOR]


The E5 is pretty complete, in the sense that it can be a part of pretty much any audio setup. The only glaring omission is that it can only connect to game consoles with stereo audio. To do that, the E5 would have to be able to decode at least Dolby, but ideally would be able to decode Dolby Atmos or DTS X for surround with height channels. This is no problem with PC games because the surround isn't encoded over USB and some games even support full 3D surround with above and below cues. C'mon, surround gaming is where Creative shines (in my opinion), and yet the E5 can only play stereo with the largest user base of gamers (console)! Let's make this happen, but keep the ability to take the processed audio and pass it along digitally to another DAC like the E5 currently can on PC. Ironically, the E5 has the best microphone integration and easiest setup I've ever had on PS4... Just unplug the USB charge cable from my controller, plug that into the E5, and Voilá! You get (stereo) sound, dual microphones with noise canceling (I had to turn up the gain, but this was Creative's best sounding mic I've heard yet), and your volume dial right there. With nearly full gain, I could talk with a keyboard behind the E5 and CrystalVoice to focus the direction of mic pickup (part of the SBX features) and the mic silenced the key clicks. If you like stereo gaming, it's a killer setup.

*Conclusion*
 When Creative made the E5, they concentrated first on sound quality, then portable design with lots of connection options, and lastly tacked-on the existing SBX suite. The result is more audiophile than gamerphile. It has great sound, a thoughtful design that is very useful to the adroit, and full-featured for PC/Mac and mobile devices, but I really miss the accurate SBX surround while console gaming. If I really was MacGyver, I would kludge together Dolby or DTS decoding into the E5 to perfect it, but as-is I use the E5 everyday in all sorts of ways.


----------



## Evshrug

*Opinion: How Do I Pick The Parts of an Audio System?*
*Article writing/editing in-progress...*

When I first started using portable headphones (before finding Head-Fi), I used to think that all I needed was a headphone that sounded great right out of my iPod. That was it. I'd heard about amplifiers (had not heard about DACs), but I thought "These headphones I read about on Macworld magazine already can get too loud to listen to with my iPod... Why would I want something to make music even louder?" Flash forward to now – where I've got over 15 things with built-in or separate DSPs, DACs, and amps – and I have a decent handle on how all the gear upstream of a headphone can affect the sound and unlock far more potential of a headphone than just make it louder.

Here's how I'll break it down:

What is it (definition)?
What stage of audio reproduction is it used?
What effect would an upgrade to this component have?
At what point is something not worth listening to and at what point have you reached diminishing returns?
Closing opinions.

Pretty straight-forward. I haven't listened to nearly everything, so this will be mainly opinions based on the perspective of gaming-suitable (with music/movies on the side) which will hopefully guide your thinking as you read Head-Fi gear reviews.


*Source/File*
Ok, I'm stretching my breakdown categories a little bit, but this is where I/we should start. I'm talking about MP3 files here, FLAC, movie files, the audio resources in a game.

 This is the beginning of the audio chain, the recordings and samples that contain the sound info for reproduction. These days, it's usually digital unless you're using a vinyl record or a cassette tape, in which case the next step of the audio chain skips straight to the amplifier. Analogue sounds are expressed in chart-form by waves curving up and down and up and down, sine waves from school if you remember. Digital tries to recreate these wave shapes with something like a bar graph: at this moment the bar is this tall, next moment the bar graph would be a bit taller representing the wave going up, next bar a bit smaller, next bar smaller again, next bar a bit taller, and so on.

 Upgrading this with more bars closer together equalling more accuracy to the original analog and a file with a higher sampling rate, and finer steps the bars can be measured in equals a truer tone to the original analogue tone and higher bit-depth. At the end of the day, digital is always going to look like stair-steps instead of a smooth analogue line, but with high enough sampling rates and bit depth it can seem smooth like a curve illustrated on a high-def computer monitor.

 I'm pretty happy with 320kbps MP3s or 256 AAC, but I prefer 16/44.1kHz (that's bit-depth/sample-rate) CD quality or similar FLAC/Lossless quality when I can get it. I don't hear much difference beyond that, the biggest difference once you reach "lossless" and higher is how well a song is recorded or mastered. Anyhow, the audio source quality in games is usually compressed less than CD-quality anyway, so that will bottleneck the realism for gear down the line anyway.


*DSP*
Digital Signal Processor, something that processes the surround sound into a stereo mix for headphones that still sounds like it comes from surround directions. It can also do EQ, volume range compression, encoding and decoding sound channel mixes like Dolby and DTS, and other effects.

 This effect has to happen while the signal is digital, so this comes before a DAC. DSP processing can be done with software running on your computer or in an external sound card-esq device, which may also have a DAC and amp built-in.

 A system doesn't need to have a DSP to just make stereo sound, but it's really handy for gamers. So, the first upgrade is just having a DSP  Modern gaming consoles actually have a DSP built-in to take all the live gaming sound info, separate positional info to 5.1 or 7.1 channels for different speakers in a home theater, and finally compress that data so it can be sent over Optical (which really only has enough bandwidth for two lossless audio channels, Dolby and DTS are encoding algorithms to compress 6 or 8 separate audio streams/channels into a stereo-sized pipeline). If a signal is encoded, you need a DSP on the _other_ receiving end of the cable, to make it back into PCM digital audio. Now, I strongly feel that it's worth it for gamers to have a DSP to calculate what a surround setup would sound like once it reaches your two ears, and make headphones recreate that sensation. Check out my Virtual Surround article (2nd Post of this thread) if you don't already know about that.


*DAC*
Digital to Analogue Converter, turns digital 1's & 0's into the electric pulses that make headphones or speakers work. 

All digital systems (CD's, DVD's, games, mp3's, etc) require a DAC before an amp.

Nicer DACs resolve finer details and nuance. It can't bring back data missing from the original file, but accuracy in creating the analogue sine waves at this point is crucial. Going from a cheap DAC (like one built into a laptop, desktop motherboard, smartphone, or game controller) to a nice ($$$) stand-alone DAC can increase the perception of details distinct from each other (we call this separation), depth of soundstage, less bloom or metallic harshness in bass and treble. 

Feed it a good sound file, and a good DAC can amaze you by revealing more insight to songs you might've been listening to all your life. You don't need to buy a million dollar statement product by Light Harmonic to get this kind of experience, but I say there are garbage DACs that fatigue and bore the listener, then a bunch of DACs between $60 and $150 that are largely similar and side grades from each other, some mid-fi DACS about $250 and up to get a noticeable upgrade, and there are people that will spend $1k plus on a DAC because many feel that a DAC upgrade provides the second biggest benefit after all your gear is at least mid-fi.


*Amp*
Amplifier, drives analogue pulses to the appropriate strength and gain (volume) for headphones and speakers, also allows adjustment of volume. 

An amplifier comes after the DAC in an audio system, right before the headphone. Sometimes you'll have a unit that is both a DAC and a pre-amp, where you are intended to connect a "power" amp after that (double amping isn't bad so long as you don't have a low-quality component dragging down the whole audio chain).

Nicer ones aren't primarily about "louder," they are for better control to present tones more accurately and provide a solid feeling to bass (and bass extension to really really low notes) and treble, lowering distortion across the whole music spectrum.

 Best place to ask about "which amp" would be in the support & review threads about the headphone you have/want.

What is it (definition)?
What stage of audio reproduction is it used?
What effect would an upgrade to this component have?
At what point is something not worth listening to and at what point have you reached diminishing returns?
Closing opinions.


*Cables?*
What is it (definition)?
What stage of audio reproduction is it used?
What effect would an upgrade to this component have?
At what point is something not worth listening to and at what point have you reached diminishing returns?
Closing opinions.

*Cables?*

*Order of importance*
Stereophile musing on how to "design" a music system:
http://www.stereophile.com/asweseeit/system_building_rules151and_how_to_break_them/index.html


----------



## Evshrug

inseconds99 said:


> I am hoping that they buck that trend and offer the chat support because right now I have all of my gaming consoles hooked up to my BenQ gaming monitor which is also connected to my PC.
> *...snip...*
> 
> If the G5 works with chat on both consoles. I could use that directly and have no ******** rigged up setup to get chat working. I can eliminate the X7 (nothing wrong with it but it doesn't play well when processing sound from 2 sources simultaneously) use optical out from my onboard sound card which has SBX to dac/amp and have access to SBX while also having much improved equipment for music..




[insert colorful language] the XBone!
Seriously, I would like to finish the Halo series and play the new Tomb Raider without waiting, but there's less reason than ever before to own both systems, and I have no problem not supporting the Xbox division executives' choices to chop off features supported in the 360 and generally making it hard to have a good audio setup. It's like they think all their customers live in the suburbs, with a stereo or surround speaker system, and use either the Kinect mic or a Microsoft chat headset. Not in the city, because speakers would cause noise complaints. Ditto for university students. Speaking of students, they usually can't afford speakers anyway, except for PC desktop speakers. What are tournament players supposed to do? And people in rural environments, yeah they wouldn't have audio problems, but they have to get internet for a day1 console patch.
So overall, there ARE headphone chat solutions. You have to have an even more complicated setup if you want to use better-sounding headphones, or sacrifice quality and get something like the Astro A50 which is boomy and not so great (take sound quality budget, subtract Microsoft chat support tax, gaming brand tax, wireless components tax, integrated amp/DAC tax, and profit tax... Now how much budget is left for the headphone's audio quality?) or the slightly better Skullcandy wireless (I've read poor things about Turtle Beach's elite series, I'd have to hear them but I don't have too much faith). Literally the only thing that only the XBOne exclusively has to offer me is the controller and Halo.


----------



## Evshrug

canthearyou said:


> But the G5 can decode DTS and Dolby, correct?



It's supposed to decode Dolby.




mattkelly said:


> Speaking of the G5, I've been contacting Creative on Twitter and they finally got back to me. Super disappointed to hear that it's been pushed back from November to December.
> https://twitter.com/soundblaster/status/663598599515697152



Huh, trying to reach them through Twitter? I haven't tried that avenue. Makes me wonder what the best way to contact PR & marketing actually is... But regardless, sounds like they're following the X7 release schedule then. We'll see what features/polish the delay allows them to have.




grownasssman said:


> Finally some info but that "dec?" Has me kind of worried we won't see it till February



The X7 was slated for November but got pushed to the second week of December too. If you think Feburary, at least you won't be disappointed. I'm expecting it out sooner an Feburary 




bavinck said:


> Let them get it right. Better late and right.



+1




rudyae86 said:


> I agree. Nobody wants it on day one full of bugs and inconveniences cough*X7*cough....too obvious i think lol



Guilty till proven innocent, eh?
Lack of microphone use with consoles I noticed straight away, but I didn't notice any other issues till I started mucking about on PC. And sorry PC master race, but I assumed that most of those issues could have been PC issues at first. So beyond day-1 mic issues, I enjoyed it right away with my console. And since the G5 is an evolution of the existing E5 with only a little added complexity, I'm thinking it should work pretty great. The E5 has something about adjusting settings while on a Bluetooth call or something which I haven't really tested out yet (I rarely use Bluetooth), but other than that it's worked very well.




grownasssman said:


> I signed up for that 30% of coupon so I'll probably have it day one lol I'll chronicle the heartache on here. Hopefully it comes out before January 31st just in case it's good enough for me to return my mixamp.



Where'd you see the coupon? That's a pretty significant sale!


----------



## Fegefeuer

Can't we depart from AC3 only finally and be offered DTS as well. What a joke.

30% Coupon was offered through subscribing


----------



## Evshrug

Ah, thanks.

Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing raw 7.1 LPCM through HDMI, without any need for encoding(compression) at all.


----------



## fishyee

evshrug said:


> *Opinion: How Do I Pick The Parts of an Audio System?*
> *Article writing/editing in-progress...*
> 
> When I first started using portable headphones (before finding Head-Fi), I used to think that all I needed was a headphone that sounded great right out of my iPod. That was it. I'd heard about amplifiers (had not heard about DACs), but I thought "These headphones I read about on Macworld magazine already can get too loud to listen to with my iPod... Why would I want something to make music even louder?" Flash forward to now – where I've got over 15 things with built-in or separate DSPs, DACs, and amps – and I have a decent handle on how all the gear upstream of a headphone can affect the sound and unlock far more potential of a headphone than just make it louder.


 
  
 Ah, welcome to the journey towards audio nirvana.  If I follow your mantra of "if I knew then what I know now," I would do it all over again starting with two foundations: Psychology and Science.  Why? 
  
 1.  Humans are mentally flawed ...  just look at the insanity in Paris and around the world right now.  F'ing ISIS.
 2.  Because humans are flawed, Marketing works.  If a company can sell $1000 power cords and win awards doing it, man, does Marketing work.
 3.  Science taught us that the Earth is round when everyone thought it was flat.  We can use Science to bypass our flaws, see through the Marketing, and filter out the truth.
  
 Think of Psychology and Science as tools to sniff out the BS in this hobby.  It will save you a lot of money down the line.  A few references to get you started:
  
 A.  Know your biases
                - http://www.businessinsider.com/cognitive-biases-that-affect-decisions-2015-8
 B.  Dr. Toole is the man.  Read his book.
               - http://www.amazon.com/Sound-Reproduction-Psychoacoustics-Loudspeakers-Engineering/dp/0240520092
 C.  Read this book to see how you justify bad audio purchases - Mistakes Were Made (but Not by Me): Why We Justify Foolish Beliefs, Bad Decisions, and Hurtful Acts
                - http://www.amazon.com/Mistakes-Were-Made-but-Not/dp/0544574788/ref=mt_paperback?_encoding=UTF8&me=
 D.  Audio concepts simplified for us by Mr. Burnett
                - http://education.lenardaudio.com/en/
  
 Ok, off the soapbox for me!  Just my opinion, guys.  Hope it helps ..


----------



## Evshrug

Hey, I like positive opinions and constructive advice here! Thank you for the references!


----------



## mgsvr

Hello Evshrug,
  
 I'm not sure if you remember me, but I asked for your advice on the X7 and Apple TV in Mad Lust Envy's thread. Well, after waiting months for the G5 news, it is so disappointed that it does not support console decoding. I gave up. I bought the Creative X7 for $299 the other day. I did read your review on Amazon too!
  
 I can get the Mixamp Pro TR, but based on your review I went with the X7. The components and everything seem better the way you described it.
  
 The X7 will be used for my PS4 console gaming and watching movie through Apple TV's bluetooth connectivity
  
 Thank you!.


----------



## Evshrug

Congrats on catching the sale price! So, you got the new Apple TV with Bluetooth output? I'm jealous! When you got the X7 on sale, did you pick up the Bluetooth dongle or anything for chat?


----------



## mgsvr

evshrug said:


> Congrats on catching the sale price! So, you got the new Apple TV with Bluetooth output? I'm jealous! When you got the X7 on sale, did you pick up the Bluetooth dongle or anything for chat?


 
 I'm not sure of what you mean by the Bluetooth dongle. Do I need to get it for streaming?
  
 The new Apple TV (4th gen) has the built in bluetooth that can stream to bluetooth headphones. The X7 also has the built-in bluetooth to receive the stream. I thought I can just have the Apple TV stream to the X7. I have yet turn on the X7 yet so I cannot confirm. I only routed and connected the cables inside my entertainment cabinet last night . Tonight I will update to the latest firmware and then I will play around with it.
  
 No, I only play single player games so I don't get anything for chat.
  
 Also, can you please share the settings for SBX and Headphone configuration on the Creative Control Panel? I am not sure what is best since this is my first time into the headphone play ground. I notice from the other topic that you leave the SBX at 67%. I know I will turn off Crytalizer and Scout Mode..etc. I just don't know the settings for SBX to get a fully immerse surround with the PS4.
  
 Thanks Evshrug!


----------



## TenMoonsNorth

evshrug said:


> It's supposed to decode Dolby.
> Huh, trying to reach them through Twitter? I haven't tried that avenue. Makes me wonder what the best way to contact PR & marketing actually is... But regardless, sounds like they're following the X7 release schedule then. We'll see what features/polish the delay allows them to have.
> The X7 was slated for November but got pushed to the second week of December too. If you think Feburary, at least you won't be disappointed. I'm expecting it out sooner an Feburary
> 
> ...


 
  
 The coupon is BLASTG5 on the Creative Store and isn't user specific. G5 is now available for sale there.
  
 I don't think the G5 can decode Dolby Digital.


----------



## Evshrug

mgsvr said:


> I'm not sure of what you mean by the Bluetooth dongle. Do I need to get it for streaming?
> 
> The new Apple TV (4th gen) has the built in bluetooth that can stream to bluetooth headphones. The X7 also has the built-in bluetooth to receive the stream. I thought I can just have the Apple TV stream to the X7. I have yet turn on the X7 yet so I cannot confirm. I only routed and connected the cables inside my entertainment cabinet last night . Tonight I will update to the latest firmware and then I will play around with it.
> 
> ...



I definitely know the new Apple TV has Bluetooth output... I was just giving you a thumbs up, and a side dish of jealousy because I have the 3rd generation Apple TV without that feature!

If you don't chat, don't worry about the dongle. I usually play multiplayer with friends, and this generation of consoles has had it's own set of challenges to workaround.

Yup, you read my recommended settings for PS4 gaming! Those are the settings I keep coming back to, but you might find you like something else with your ears or headphones. I do like the fact that at least the X7 provides customization options.





tenmoonsnorth said:


> The coupon is BLASTG5 on the Creative Store and isn't user specific. G5 is now available for sale there.
> 
> I don't think the G5 can decode Dolby Digital.




Right, in the post you quoted from the beginning of November, the device was announced as a surround gaming device compatible with consoles, but it hadn't been released yet and I had no way of knowing they wouldn't support any console surround codec. Your post was from just about an hour ago, so of course you know what I didn't then.

As a surround fan, the best I can do is talk about how I'd like to see a G5-level headphone surround device for consoles to fill the gap between an X7 and other offerings like Astro's Mixamp.


----------



## mgsvr

evshrug said:


> I definitely know the new Apple TV has Bluetooth output... I was just giving you a thumbs up, and a side dish of jealousy because I have the 3rd generation Apple TV without that feature!
> 
> If you don't chat, don't worry about the dongle. I usually play multiplayer with friends, and this generation of consoles has had it's own set of challenges to workaround.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Evshrug,
  
 I read your E5's SBX settings a couple pages back. I started the X7 off with the Default preset, then I set my SBX:
  
 Surround to 90% (you said 100% is immersive but it's slightly processed sound vs pure of the lowered %),
 turned off Crystalizer,
 turned off Smart Volume,
 turned off Dialog
  
 Should I turn on Bass for PS4 gaming? At default it's 30%.
  
 My priority is to get the best of PS4 gaming (for all genre). For watching movie, should I pick the Movie preset instead of this custom preset?
  
 Thanks


----------



## Evshrug

Try the presets, see if you like it 
Again, customize it to how you like. Bass is fun, mids and treble with less bass is easier to soundwhore with, Crystalizer kicks up everything except mids, etc. Like they say in the Burger King adds, have it your way!


----------



## mgsvr

Evshrug,
  
 Have you experience with those annoying pop/crack noises from the X7? I updated to the latest firmware (September 2015), and once in a while there is the pop sound. I have disabled Mic/Line/USB Host input in the mixer as many people suggested in other forums, but it is still happen once in a while. Kind of annoying.


----------



## Fegefeuer

I had the same until I changed the brand of the optical cable. I have two of the "crackle pop" cables of the same brand/model and 2 others of another one and the former ones work flawlessly everywhere but with the X7. The latter work everywhere.


----------



## mgsvr

Do you mind telling me the brand that works flawlessly with the X7? I have a Monoprice brand currently. I'm think of the Mediabridge if I buy another cable...


----------



## Fegefeuer

sorry, mine are from Amazon Germany 

Hama PS4 for instance. 2,5metres


----------



## astroman55

I bought the creative X7 and am currently using them with audio technica adg1 and most likely upgrade to the Fidelio X2's but I am have a few problems and questions
  
 I assume I should be using the Normal Gain 32/300 ohm headphone option?
  
 I have the X7 connected to my PC via usb and PS4 via optical and both direct modes have no sound it just makes a click sound once when I check the box in the control software
  
 I am mainly using these for PS4 Call of duty black ops 3 in particular and tried the scout mode but the footsteps are very inconsistent as other sounds seem to drown them out
  
 Can someone post their settings or help me with what I am doing wrong 
  
 Thanks


----------



## Evshrug

Mgsvr,
I have a nicer, nylon wrapped fiber optic cable, and a super-generic no name optic cable that's quite thin. They both work, I don't remember or particularly care which I've got plugged in. 
It's possible the cable you got was broken, you probably just need another.


Astroman,
I think I know what is going on...
Direct mode circumvents the DSP chip that can decode multichannel audio like Dolby 5.1; if you have direct Mode turned on you can only feed the X7 stereo PCM. All the X7's work this way.

Scout mode tries to listen to the audio, not only making quiet sounds louder, but I think it also tries to amplify certain frequencies and make others quieter. Not particularly consistent between games... It's probably had it's frequency EQ designed for Counter Strike or something. Sometimes I use it when it's late and my ears are tired, but I don't count on it to give me a competitive edge.


----------



## astroman55

Any reason why on Volume of 2 it is quite loud using the creative x7? using optical its no where near as loud


----------



## Evshrug

Volume 2?
0_o

Maybe it's just because it's 3:15 am, but I don't know what you mean by volume 2


----------



## astroman55

evshrug said:


> Volume 2?
> 0_o
> 
> Maybe it's just because it's 3:15 am, but I don't know what you mean by volume 2


 
 On windows 2% via volume control


----------



## Evshrug

I'm pretty sure I mentioned my settings in my review. With most headphones, while connected to PC, my volume is set to ~20% (more for my harder to drive K612). And most of the time, I'm playing connected to my PS4.

Here's another user's settings:


mad lust envy said:


> Go to sound devices (the speaker icon on the taskbar).
> Right click.
> Playback Devices
> Right click on the Soundblaster X7
> ...


----------



## Evshrug

*ZMF Headphones Vibro MK II*
This Timber has Timbre!


How far can mods take a headphone's performance? That's the key question when looking at headphones like ZMF Headphones’ Vibro Mark II; but instead of answering the question, the Vibro has opened the door of awareness to whole new possibilities! Yes, ZMF has objectively improved the technical performance from the original, subjectively changed the flavor to amazing tonal richness, and re-forged the set to make a strong new impression. 


*Sound signature*
 I invited a music enthusiast friend over, let's call him "Tin Ears" to protect his freedom to blurt out his unfiltered mind and reflect his gear-noob status. On the way, he was very excited as we talked about different technical aspects of sound and songs that would really strike us in the feels, but I refused to tell him how the Vibro sounded to me or hype him other than to say he was in for a treat. He walked in, continuing the conversation, but I cut him off with "Here... Have some chocolate!"

"Woah the wood looks amazing! These pads are HUGE!!"

 He put them on. I started playing one of his favorites, The English Beat's "I Confess."

"Holy [nsfw] man. Holy *[NSFW]*!" Pause... "Damn, this is so good, it makes me want to... To punch a hole in the wall, hahaha!"

 The Vibro MkII is, on the frequency graphs, definitely colored and a "fun" headphone with a moderate V-shape (what I'd call a "u" shape). The response starts out with a few decibels bass boosted above neutral that smoothly curves down partway into the midrange, levels out, and starts lifting up a few decibels into the treble "hump" (smoother than your typical "spike") peaking at around 7kHz, beginning to roll back down around 9kHz, and coming back to level with the mids around 12-13kHz and continuing to smoothly roll off past the audible hearing range. So, yeah - energetic midbass and plenty of sub-bass extension (especially with a more-powerful-than-average amp and a DAC better than your phone), nicely balanced against the treble lift. To make a “fun” sound signature, the fundamental midrange needs to be relatively lower so that there is some excitement at the extremes. I specify "u" shape because the slope is gentle; still the mids have a nice presence.

Beyond the frequency range, the Vibro is also endowed with rich timbre, unforced detail, and low fatigue from the treble. I hear the thicker, richer timbre and I think of another headphone that tried to have similarly solid mids/midbass (introduced at $1k, now selling for half that) while also having good detail, soundstage, transparency... and this Vibro achieves that solid weightiness without the bloom, slower decay, nor sacrifice as much of inner detail as that other headphone. Note attack has a solid THUMP that can be felt on the surface of the ear. The Vibro doesn't decay as sharply as my Vintage Stax (what does?!), but coming from another mid-fi headphone like my AKG K612, the Vibro will raise the bar for resolution without sounding artificially enhanced or pressed into the spotlight. Since it doesn't try too hard to spotlight detail from etched or spiked treble, it's easier to listen to for longer times. As a closed headphone, it presents soundstage depth differently than an open headphone, but if you get used to it, the Vibro will show you a room inside your head and do a Hi-Fi job of strongly placing each instrument distinct from each other with only a little concentration. The headphone definitely encourages you to sink in and in and in, and then grooves you with some serious mojo.

What does this mean? I can listen to Margot sing "Walking After Midnight" (Cowboy Junkies, Trinity Session) and really enjoy the varying softness of the electric guitar plucks, hear the ambient decay from Margot's tapping foot inside the church with surprisingly good imaging from a closed headphone, and actually enjoy the spice from the harmonica's high notes. I LOVE the impact of the drums and great gritty texture of the bass guitar on "Heart of the Sunrise" by Yes. I can play an intense game of Call of Duty: Black Ops 3 or Destiny without the crack of guns or booms of grenades fatiguing me, yet still use virtual surround processing to predict right when an enemy will appear around the corner and that I'll have to escape that firefight coming up from behind. The thunder inside the Vault of Glass in Destiny sounds so cool and powerful. The Vibro sounds especially magic with Electronica, Alternative, Rock, Jazz, Pop... Not the last word in detail for large orchestral ensembles or recreating the sound of standing out in the rain, but the Vibro still plays with the intensity of the musicians. Go ahead and put anything on, you'll have a good time.


*Design*
Perhaps it shouldn't come as a surprise, but the carved wood earcups, super-plush pads, and planar magnetic drivers contribute a lot to the sound and ergonomics. Vibro Mk II's start their life as a Fostex TRP-series headphone (Fostex is an OEM Manufacturer). Vibro Labs lathes out the jointly-designed earcups out of "A solid block of premium forestry" as per ZMF's website; mine is carved out of a dense but sustainable Sapele wood, most are Cherry. Meanwhile, Zach tunes and rewires the drivers with premium OCC Litz copper, reassembles the headphone with some massively thick pads and the customer's choice of earcup and adjustment "arm" finish. The cables have a new mini-XLR detachable system that clicks into place smoothly and solidly; Zach (and his wife) make them out of 4-strand wire and terminate the cable with whatever plug the customer wants. I suggest 1/4" or XLR.

A factory-stock Fostex T50RP is pretty good, but a Vibro coaxes better sonic refinement and comfort (and aesthetics) out of what parts are reused. A Vibro is more comfortable due to the more deeply plush, malleable, and slightly breathable earpads and plush "pilot pad" headband. The wood and padding put the Vibro on the heavier side of headphones, plus they're pretty large, but I wore them while gaming for 5 hours with minor weight shifts, and I don't mind wearing them 1-2 hours without fussing with them (at room temperature). The Vibro MkII cups also have a cool cup mounting system, with wiggle room to pivot the cups a bit in any direction to sit flush against your ears and head. The earcups also have three tuning ports which add about +1 dB of midbass for each unplugged port; I most often listened with the default two-pegged-ports which is just slightly "fun" of neutral but still seems faithful of timbre, while all ports unplugged made my bassy V-Moda M-100 seem redundant. The bass tuning plugs are fun, but feel more like different flavors of one headphone rather than 4 different headphones. Go back to the T50RP, and the sound will be more etched in the treble and have more bloom in the midbass, with less pleasurable and believable timbre.

Part of the Vibro's impact and... vibrancy comes from the different-than-usual Planar Magnetic drivers. Most headphones use the Dynamic cone drivers like most home-theater speakers use, but Planar drivers use a super low-mass film that can change direction super fast from the electromagnets set on one or both sides of the film. The much flatter waves and speedy responsiveness from the film benefit the listener with less distortion and basically immunity to effects from an amplifier's output impedance. The downside is that the Vibro is the most power hungry headphone I have had in my house, yet. At work, I had to turn up my poor iPhone 5s to just two ticks shy of maximum volume to get my regular listening volume, and even max was less than what several coworkers wanted to set it. The darling O2 amp on 3x gain can reach adequate volume easily, but still sounds a bit dull and fails to articulate the bass and soundstage depth as well as my more transparent Cavalli Liquid Carbon (connected via XLR) and Theta Basic II DAC at home... The Vibro definitely scales up with a better system.

*Cool Factor*
Want a unique headphone? One with that hand-crafted feel, with natural wood grain (that you can still feel) in either nude "natural," "stained," or "burst" finish echoing acoustic guitars, one that is collectable and just perhaps as much an heirloom to an audiophile as a Gibson is to a musician? The Vibro delivers.

Secondly, or perhaps more importantly, you'll want to hold onto your custom Vibro because it sounds so addicting. I'm a firm believer that there is no single "best" headphone that will be everyone's favorite... but Tin Ears was just one among three friends, three family members, five coworkers, two GameStop workers ("Astros are best!"), and one random customer at GameStop who all wanted to listen to several songs, all heard something new, all came away impressed, and half softly spoke expletives. That makes the Vibro a pretty easy recommendation. Even if you one day get a technically better performing summit-fi headphone costing twice as much or more, the Vibro still earns its place as the non-fatiguing, toe-tapping alternative for when a harmonica sounds too shrill or a j-pop singer is too sibilant.


*Best Use Scenario*
The Vibro MKII is best kept near a desk at home or work where you can connect it to a brawny amp and set it down when you need to get up and walk somewhere. The pads and cups seal in the sound quite well with above-average closed headphone comfort. The Vibro serves well in an environment where you need to cut down ambient noise, but you can't wear IEMs, because you frequently need to hear a coworker or say hi to your Fiancé/Spouse (face the door!!). 


Overall, the Vibro is pretty close to ideal for what I would look for in a closed headphone. It is pretty much for home use, is a little heavy, and requires a desktop-class amp, but it has great strengths in addicting sound, extended-wear comfort, good sound seal and isolation, and frankly is a unique looking headphone with that "custom, handmade" feel. It satisfies on it's own against many hi-fi headphones in the sub-$1000 bracket, but also makes a great compliment to own alongside a very technical, transparent headphone that may stray too close to analytical for some songs. You might as well spring for the stain or "burst" finish if you like that look, and a stand or the case, because the Vibro will be just as much a conversation starter as a Swarvosky Crystal statuette. The slight cost will be amortized as the Vibros will be around for a loooooong time for you, for whenever you want to bring some magic to the most popular music genres on the planet.

-----

I'd like to give a big Thank You to Zach of ZMF Headphones for letting me borrow these Vibro's after I asked to review them. I also appreciated Zach's quick service when I had a shorting issue with one of the cables... it was well worth hearing the headphone on my best setup!


----------



## Evshrug

So, guys, I don't know if any of you saw the Newegg deal for a Turtle Beach DXL1 package for $21 free ship, and a $20 rebate, but I got one so I could try out the DSS2.

We didn't take the DSS2 seriously, but it's actually a pretty great device. First impressions:

The background noise is mostly independent from the signal, so when I tried it out double-amped to a Cavalli Liquid Carbon and an HD 800 (I know guys, I know!), I actually couldn't hear any background noise when I had the DSS2 set to max and the LC dialed in to normal listening volume on but the PS4 in sleep mode. I had to turn the LC up to about 1 O'Clock position before I began hearing a quiet whine... VERY GOOD PERFORMANCE! On a scale of 1-10, with the Mixamp 5.8 being 1 and 10 being silent at any volume, I'd rate the DSS2 at 8 — won't hear any noise till you get beyond deafening volume. I'll test this out again later with some CIEMs plugged straight into the DSS2. Keep in mind, the DSS2 "sees" the second amp like as if it was a headphone with the dampening power of a 1000 Ohm headphone, so that affects the background noise performance.

I liked surround mode 6, it has a pretty evenly spaced location of virtual speakers. What they don't (bother) to show in the surround mode illustrations is the center speaker... because it's always located front and center. Mode 1 might be better for movies that don't use the center speaker as a "location" (some movies and tv just use the center speaker as "Dat Dialogue Box"), mode 3 might be a good blend of options. The DSS2 takes Dolby input and processes out with a proprietary headphone surround algorithm, but it's super close to Dolby Headphone and has very clear front/rear cue difference, a tiny little bit of reverb on rear cues. USB Passthrough so I can use my Blue Microphone with my PS4 and have a spare USB port on the PS4 for... um... Charging a controller?

More to come after work.


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

Good to know. Maybe one day I'll give it a go. Don't have a pressing need right now.


----------



## Stillhart

I took advantage of the same deal.  Initial impressions are that it's probably the best of my three devices (Mixamp 5.8, Recon3D, DSS2) for pure SQ.  Because of the lack of background noise, I can double amp it to good volumes and things sound crisp and clear with a nice black background.  It's very enjoyable.
  
 I still need to spend some time experimenting with the different HRTF's to see how I like the surround processing.  It's definitely not bad but that's as far as I'm willing to go without putting more time into it.
  
 Functionally, the DSS2 itself doesn't have a chat/game balance function unless you're using it with the ****ty headphones it came with.  My Recon doesn't either so it's not a huge deal for me.  It also doesn't have an analogue mic input, only USB.  That means it almost certainly won't work on an Xbox One (though I haven't tested it to be sure).  The USB passthrough is a nice feature to save precious port space.


----------



## Evshrug

I'd like to fish out my Mixamp 5.8 again to compare DH and Cirrus' headphone HRTF. From memory, they should be pretty close to nigh indistinguishable.

With a headphone that images super-precise, a 6 O'Clock rear cue still sounds behind but like two rear speakers each playing a tone 50%/50%. So, mentally, it's easy to track as a sound plays at each position, but the spaces between speakers are a little more diffused and may seem like a "hole," though I wouldn't call it thus (as 6 O'Clock still is clearly centered behind you, distinct from 7 O'Clock and 5 O'clock).


----------



## Imperatore

Just wanted to say thanks for all your contributions here.  Along with MLE's guide you have kept me occupied for well over a month researching and trying new stuff.  Not that I've come to any final decisions yet but it's been fun none the less.


----------



## Evshrug

So... You're saying you had fun, learned something, AND all for free? Awesome!

Thank YOU for the compliment and motivation to continue!


----------



## Evshrug

*Sound Blaster X G5*
The Gaming device with everything* we asked for

​

*A Little Context*
The G5 is part of Creative's "Blaster X" gamer focused line, cued after the name of the X7. I loved the Sound Blaster X7 (reviewed here) and the more music-focused Sound Blaster E5 (also reviewed here). The X7 is my most–used piece of audio gear right now, but the $400 X7 is Creative's top of the line setup, and a lower-cost, upgraded replacement for the discontinued Recon3D USB (reviewed here) was still missing. For me, the Recon3D USB represented a headphone to console connection, with headphone surround processing and microphone input, for around $120.

When Creative hinted about an E5 variant they would call the G5, people on the X7 and Mad Lust Envy gaming threads were dreaming of an Astro Mixamp killer. It seems Creative was actually listening and filled an impressive number of our requests, but does the G5 succeed and absolutely slay the competition? Read on!

​

*Statistics/Design*
In the box, you get the G5 itself, which is a DSP, DAC (Cirrus Logic CS4398), dual headphone amp (Texas Instruments TI6120A2), and mic (with ADC), but also you get a bold red micro USB cable (the new ones like on android smartphones and Playstation 4 controllers), a 1m optical cable (yeah I used metric, and it's a Toslink to Mini-Toslink connector cable), a map of various setup/cable wiring options and instructions, two warranty papers, and something in Singaporean which I also assume is a warranty/thank you card. If you noticed that was mostly copy-pasted from my E5 review, that's because the G5 is mostly a gamer-focused adaptation of the E5, and that's a very good start! Plus, you know, I can plagiarize myself without fear of lawsuit 

The power aspects of the G5 are kinda balanced between a portable and desktop amp. Creative removed the E5's lithium battery, but as a hardcore gaming device it would be plugged in to USB on a PC or console anyway, so that's an acceptable cost savings measure to bring the price down. As an amp, it does have enough power for my AKG K612 to sound linear and full... Which, by the way, requires a higher volume setting than the 600 ohm DT880 for the same apparent loudness. Output impedance on the headphone jacks is between 2.2 and 2.4 ohms, pretty ideal for most headphones except the most sensitive IEMs. Speaking of IEMs, my Custom Art CIEMs and entry-level RHA IEMs pick up a little background hiss (less than the X7) that is easy to ignore once the audio starts, with no hiss for my 32 ohm Oppo PM-3 or V-MODA M-100. Unlike the Astro Mixamp or Creative's old Recon3D USB, it has plenty of volume headroom and has some nice density to the notes. From a pure value:sound quality perspective, this is pretty impressive at this price compared to the more commonly recommended signal chain gear, but more on competitive options in the conclusion.

  ​

The G5 contains a fair number of connectivity ports and buttons, same layout as the E5 but some have different functions. There's two 3.5mm jacks by the big but unobtrusive volume dial; the left jack is for headphones (TRS) and headsets (TRRS), the right is for microphones only. The digital volume dial and can be clicked to mute, and it is also backlit with a red LED that changes brightness with the volume setting, cool! Next side to the right of that has the Scout Mode button and the SBX activation, both with white indicator lights for "on," and a gain switch. You can hold the buttons to turn off processing for a "straight" audio signal. Then there's three LEDs indicating which of the three SBX profiles is active, those three plus Scout Mode total 4 sound profiles which can be customized with a computer. The next face around the right is the wide picture above. The two ports on the left are combination 3.5mm (TRS) and mini-Toslink ports. Then, the "USB–Device" port is for connecting to a keyboard, mouse (not on PS4), USB thumbdrive, and I can confirm that my PS4 recognizes my Blue Snowball USB microphone through this port. It doesn't work as a digital connection to smartphones or tablets. The furthest right micro-USB port is for charging the E5 and PC/Mac/PS4 connection (Just one cable! No rats' nest, yay!). The G5 CAN play from USB and the line-in at the same time, and you CAN output straight or processed audio through the line-out to another DAC or amp... So you can build a rats nest if you want!

​

*Sound*
I played some high-rez FLACs of music using VLC (and some fun stuff from iTunes), with SBX and any EQ off the sound is pretty good: it's overall pretty clean, though maybe a slight upper mids emphasis which makes vocals and guitars sound a tad more romantic. This is all so slight and close to flat, that you have to be really used to your headphone on another amp to hear the difference; without A/B testing this will sound like a nice flat amp. Plugging in my headphones to the G5 compared to my PC's Gygabyte more board was an immediate improvement; every note more crisp, nuances revealed so the playing stage is more transparent (and thus relative depth of a great recording is easier to sense). My next description will be familiar to most people who have owned a nice amp: audio is a bit more engaging, like as if you can feel the artist's emotion or the music is "full of life" rather than dull or a soda-gone-flat.

One more thing… Straight out of the box, the G5’s SBX processing was smeary and, frankly, bad. The G5 sounded good without processing, and a firmware update basically fixed the processing. I highly recommend installing the new Blaster X suite to your computer and updating the G5’s firmware right out of the box before judging the processing.


*What makes it cool?*
Let's cut to the chase here: this is a lower cost reconfiguration of Creative's E5, with fewer features but still retaining most of the things a gamer at home will like. As an audiophile, this is a great starter Amp/DAC. I would go as far as saying is pretty comparable to the well-known Schiit M&M stack or FiiO E09k (with less output impedance and hiss) and E17 stack for a pretty great price. It also includes a DSP that can be custom-tuned for a headphone (Hot treble? Anemic bass? EQ that!) or use (music engagement, tactical gaming, movies at night). That processing (including SBX Headphone) can be output to a crazy desktop super-setup or AV receiver (night mode + Netflix, anyone?). They also enabled Creative's excellent SBX Headphone Surround to take positional audio from PC/Mac and immerse players in 360° (2D) sonic environments. I feel trading things like the battery, built-in microphones, digital phone connections via USB or Bluetooth from the E5 in order to reach a lower price point is fair (though the loss of Bluetooth controls on a mobile app is a tiny bit annoying). The lower cost, LED volume indicator, easy mic setup, and processed output were all community requests for improvements after looking at the X7 and E5, and Creative brought that to market.

That leads me to the uncool part. The G5 cannot decode Dolby or DTS from a Playstation or Xbox, so consoles are a Stereo-Only affair. Good stereo, no problem for 2D games, but that means the G5 is not a true successor to the Recon3D USB, even if the sound quality is improved.

I can only speculate as to why the G5 wasn't enabled to decode Dolby while the Recon3D USB was for around the same price (less, when on sale). The existence of the Recon3D makes me doubt cost as the reason, though maybe it has to do with Dolby and post-processed digital outputs, or perhaps not enough gamers have been educated about the appeal of surround gaming.

​*Conclusion*
If you liked the Sound Blaster Omni but wanted to be able to connect to consoles as well as computers, then the G5 does that while being an amp upgrade. However, for PC-only gamers, the Omni is cheaper and you won't outgrow it because the Omni also has a line-out and post-processed optical output for upgrades. If you like the G5 but could make use of turning it from a transportable to a portable, with the extra features of Bluetooth, Microphones, phone and tablet USB support on the go, and a battery, then for $50 more you can buy the very versatile Creative E5. If you want headphone surround with a game console, then shop for an X7 or another brand. The G5 definitely takes a stab at all of Astro’s Mixamp line with a much more powerful Amp and crisper DAC for overall sound quality at almost the same price, but the Mixamp still has 360° surround audio for consoles and a physical knob for mixing chat and game audio. 

Purely based on sound quality, Schiit, FiiO, Fostex, and others should watch as the G5 sounds surprisingly close for less money. The G5 has it’s own implementation of the amping chip also used in the FiiO E09k, Fostex HP-A4, Asus STX, and Creative’s own ZxR, while sharing the same DAC chip as used in several of Astell & Kern’s DAPs and sounds nigh-indistinguishable in A/B tests with Schiit’s Modi DAC. Let that sink in for a little… The G5 is no gaming gimmick.

As it stands, the G5 is low–cost considering it's sound quality, and is a great *stereo* home-gaming device.


----------



## Imperatore

Thanks for this review. The omission of VSS for console use renders it pointless for me personally. I honestly cannot see a reason to change from my X7 anytime soon.


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## Evshrug

[Size = 5]*Intro to Surround Gaming Guide playlist is up!*[/Size]

[Video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8tWvX6G0yE[/Video]

New videos aimed at Tuesday's! Subscribe and follow me on Twitter @evshrug so I can make the channel grow! Thanks!
The playlist:,https://m.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL4bc2SQk0h2QhBrVdL-Uxts2XvEo33oqy


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## Vader2k

Ha, I LOVE the retro-styled motion graphics!  Very well done.


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## Evshrug

New video going up tonight (already did a DSS video).
A friend advised me to put the DSP videos in a new thread... Any thoughts?

Recon3D!
Spread the word!


[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=on85Zmcf7NU[/video]


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## Evshrug

I got to play the PS VR today! And two of my friends showed up!


My buddy Max... Just happened to show up!


The power and audio control pod:
​


I played a 3-D Tetris game, the space fighter simulation (EVE: Valkyrie), and a tank shooter (forget the name but it looks very tron-inspired). We all tried the space sim, one of my buddies tried the sea-diving demo (and the tank game), and my other buddy tried the Headmaster game (head butting soccer balls). We were at Best Buy and the Move-Controller enabled demo is apparently a GameStop Exclusive, so they couldn't show it.

It's ready. VR is ready, and almost here. I remember my first visit to Disney World, like almost 20 years ago, where Epcot had a sweet demonstration of someone watching a VR demo (on-rails ride) of some 3D Aladdin ride, with a big heavy-looking headset festooned with cables that snaked up into the ceiling, and thinking "OMG I want to try! They need to put this in arcades in the next year or two!" Obviously, that didn't happen, and arcades are a dying breed, but now we've got WAY more advanced and affordable options in 2016.

*Overall Personal Impressions:*
The PS VR has really smooth and accurate head-tracking, was quite well-thought-out and comfortable ergonomically, and the most impressive virtual 3D effect I've ever seen. 

And I mean COMPLETE virtual 3D... 3D audio, and the 3D visuals felt more like a room instead of like "a screen 4 inches from your face with like the appearance of something coming out or behind a flat plane by about a foot in either direction." Objects appeared to smoothly reach out and occupy a space instead of seeming like a bunch of depth layers, and the 3D audio was effectively used in several instances to direct the player where to look to see the main action. AMD's "TrueAudio" audio processor built-into every PS4 is finally getting to show its full potential without being limited to a ring of speakers in a room. Visually, there were a couple aliasing "jaggies" to slanted lines, and I didn't see any games as detailed as The Witcher 3 or Crysis 3, but I only noticed that while watching the TV while others played because I was so immersed while playing myself (and reading on-screen text was easy while playing).

*Comfort:*
The forehead and "halo" sections were comfortably padded and we agreed that the weight of the HMD unit + closed Sony headphones used in the demo = about the weight of a ZMF Vibro, so personally I would project a comfortable wearing time of 4-5 hours. I was pleased that the mostly-supraaural Sony headphones fit at the same time as the HMD unit, though a huge headphone like an HD800 would probably not fit (the PS VR will come with earbuds... I may choose to reinvest in some CIEMs, or the Audio Technica IM-07). There's an inline remote about mid-chest high on the HMD's cable for the power switch, volume, and 3.5mm jack for plugging in headphones; I liked this placement, and the jack sounded far better than a DS4 headphone jack (though still not as good as an X7).

*The Game Demos:*
My buddy who tried the ocean-diving game said he tried it much earlier on the Occulus Rift, and he liked it much better this time on the PS VR. I haven't tried the Rift myself, so I tried to tease out details of what he meant because the Occulus technically has slightly higher resolution and framerate... From what I gather, the demo had simply benefitted from more development time and more details in the environment, more fish at a time, and just more happening. I suppose that also means that psychologically the game content is more noticeable and matters more than the technical spec difference between the PS VR and the Occulus. My friend agreed with this, and said the PS VR did a better job tracking his movement in a 3D space, including when he stood up. I also noticed he looked up when the rocks overhead cracked, and he turned towards the shark, so audio was helping alert him to interesting things to turn towards. I dont think the game has too much replay value, but it's a cool indicator of possible virtual tourist experiences and effective tense/reaction moments. He didn't scream like a girl, and I was a smidge disappointed.

My other buddy (he's a Head-Fi'er! BunnyNamedFrank!) played the Headmaster game, and the PlayStation representative (Thanks Connie!) said he had the best score yet of everyone who tried the demo. There's an amusing announcer/narrator kinda like Job Simulator, and a weird setting kinda like a prison/concentration camp for training people to headbutt soccer balls. Your face is the controller (no DS4 needed), and my buddy seemed to do better when he pivoted from the hip instead of moving his neck. Again, audio was important to the 3D, as horns told him where the soccer balls would launch from, and the 3D depth effect was smooth enough for him to time his ball-hits pretty effectively. This game is also novel but not too much replay value in current form: play once to be amused at the tutorial and narration, play once or twice more if you feel determined to get the best score.

I played the 3D Tetris game. Spinning the cube to fit the hole in the wall rushing towards me was one of those chill/relaxing at the same time as focused experiences. It would be way harder to play the game in 2D if you couldn't sway around to see the puzzle from different sides at once, and the game did a cool thing where it tracks the real position of your DS4 controller and you see the controls when you look at the buttons. A simple but well-executed game, with about as much replay value as any other Tetris game or high-score arcade game.

Battletanks (IIRC the title) was the favorite demo of one of my buddies, and I quite liked it too. Of the games I played, it felt the most atmospheric, with all kinds of cool do-dads in the cockpit like a radar, gun status, news feed (for flavor), and decorations, while there was also a cool gearing-up I the hangar sequence that I quite enjoyed. The 3D effect really helped me feel badass as it made dodging and launching projectiles easier, and all the strafing and dodging didn't make me feel motion sick at all (possibly courteous of the 120hz refresh rate? Smooth 60 fps, seemed plenty). I would play the demo a few times at home just because it's quite fun and the combat moments are cool, but it cuts short suddenly and really feels like a demo, ultimately the objective is always the same so it doesn't have high replay-ability, but I'd buy a full-game version.

Last one I'm going to comment on is the space sim, EVE, which should probably also be the finalé demo saved for last for anyone who goes to a PS VR exhibition. This is the only demo marked "Heavy VR" on the list of demos available, with the fastest ship speed and lots of ships whizzing all around in an open area. It also has the more hardcore controls... I would have liked an in-game representation of the controller like in the 3D Tetris game to remind me which button was boost or rocket lock-on, and my one buddy had a hard time till he adjusted to inverted pitch controls (but inverted is the more realistic control!). I saw another guy give this game a try a bit before I left have a REALLY hard time steering, hit a capital ship and grind on it for awhile till his cockpit blew out and his character died, and eventually the guy said he couldn't take it anymore and basically ripped off the HMD as the attendent was trying to help him... He was fine with the ocean and Headmaster game, but I guess this one got to him. My whole family gets car-sick, but I didn't feel sick while playing this game... My eyes (with glasses) lost focus for a moment when the action first started (I played this demo first), but I adjusted quickly and soon was able to use the ability to follow my targets around till I brought my ship's crosshairs to bear to great advantage. The effects were cool, looking around gave a tactical advantage (and actually stabilized the frame for me to watch an enemy ship while I pulled off a crazy maneuver), and gave me the most realistic sense of piloting a plane I've ever had. This was overall the most fun demo to me, and showed off the benefit of new way to game the most instead of just being a gimmick or a little different. No matter how well you do, eventually the infinite baddies blow up a big ship, and there seems to be only two types of enemies, but I still think the repyability is high for a demo because each dogfight is different and twisting, cranking, and blasting around just feels so FRIGGING AWESOME!


*Final Thoughts:*
At this point, I think Sony's mostly waiting for games to finish development and building up stock to sell. The HMD itself is awesome and feels very well-thought-out, and things like the PS Camera sensing that the player stands up and changing your in-game height seem to be signs that Sony has thought ahead and has some systems in place for future improvements. Meanwhile, the demo graphics seemed like clean last-gen detailed that was totally adequate while conveying the new view and control experience that feels very fresh and exciting. The demos are fun and at many times show benefits beyond just mere gimmicks. For the price of a decent 42" TV, I predict the PS VR is gonna be a hot commodity and meet with a lot of success!


----------



## Evshrug

Here's a pretty cool article with a list of games (with trailers) for the PlayStation VR:
http://www.wareable.com/sony/best-playstation-vr-games-2016


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## Evshrug

vader2k said:


> Ha, I LOVE the retro-styled motion graphics!  Very well done.




Hey Vader, when I post my video of my Yamaha AVR, can I put a link to your guide to Marantz receivers?


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## Vader2k

evshrug said:


> Hey Vader, when I post my video of my Yamaha AVR, can I put a link to your guide to Marantz receivers?




Oh, by all means! Appreciate the mention.


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## pur3champ2

Hi @EvShrug in your review for the sbx g5 you said you updated the firmware and downloaded the latest sbx but I've tried looking on creatives site and googling but can't find any way to update the firmware. Can you please help?


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## Fegefeuer

I didn't need one either. 
  
 What are you expecting from a firmware update?


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## Evshrug

pur3champ2 said:


> Hi @EvShrug in your review for the sbx g5 you said you updated the firmware and downloaded the latest sbx but I've tried looking on creatives site and googling but can't find any way to update the firmware. Can you please help?




Pur3champ2,
My apologies, there was a software update for the G5, but mentally I was excited about a firmware update to the X7. I haven't checked if Creative has put out a firmware update to the G5 in the past month, but there was just an update to the driver software.

Thanks for pointing it out though. I've got some writing that must be done tonight, but I'll edit my reviews when I get the chance (unfortunately I posted it here, the G5 thread, and as a separate product review!).


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## Evshrug

*Burson Audio v5i OpAmp*
Elevate your amp!

*Intro*
One of the "problems" of the audio hobby is that, almost inevitably, upgraditis strikes! With a tube amp, or an amp with interchangeable operational amplifiers (OpAmps), upgraditis can be staved off with $50-$75 chips instead of buying a whole new amp. Familiar with a tube amp (and the pain of manually biasing voltage with a voltmeter, and dealing with EMI noise pickup), I wanted to try changing the OpAmps in my Sound Blaster X7 from Creative Labs. Would OpAmp rolling be enough to cure an upgrade fever, or is it better to spend a whole lot more on a whole new amp? Read on and find out!

*Sound signature*
Ok, so I've been gaming with my X7 since it came out, and six months ago I leaped to using a Sennheiser HD800 as my primary headphone. Besides the X7 with stock OpAmps, I also have a vintage Yamaha receiver amp, several FiiO portables, a simple SET tube amp, and a Cavalli Liquid Carbon. Upon recommendation from a friend, Supreme Sound offered to send me a pair of single and dual Burson v5i OpAmps in exchange for a review.

First, I swapped out the stock Singles, and I have to admit I didn't hear a change immediately. I was also hearing some initial static, had a technical problem with my X7 that took some troubleshooting and firmware updating to fix, and also was sick at the time and less trusting of my ears. Then, I put in the Duals; the sound was definitely better than stock, more refined, exciting, and mellifluous, but it was hard to put my finger on exactly why at first. Changing OpAmps did not color the frequency response, but as I kept listening I realized the changes touched all the little secondary attributes that are hard to find but define the "high-end" sound. I think I also experienced a bit of positive burn-in, because the static issues during the first 10 minutes of warm-up don't happen anymore, and the gulf between the new sound and the stock op-amps became more apparent with time.

Again, the bass, mids, and treble were all balanced the same, decibel-wise. There was perhaps better extension with less roll-off in the bass and more even (less dips and peaks) in the treble. The treble spike in my Sennheiser HD800 seems sweeter, not veiled but less fatiguing than before the OpAmp changes. Resolution, "plankton," micro-detail, all these different descriptions for the same thing have been dialed into better focus over the X7's stock LME OpAmps. Yup, the waters are clear, and even little sea creatures are evident. This leads into Soundstage size being more defined and more naturally porportioned, and imaging being crisper. Take all that – the size, position, and better focused details, all without resorting to boosting treble to highlight details and without the trade-offs that come from boosting treble – and you have a more "transparent" sound, one that feels more realistic and holographically 3D.



Spoiler: High End A/B Comparisons



Compared to high-end headphone amplifiers, the Burson v5i isn't quite as good but holds its own and comes to a performance midpoint between the stock X7 OpAmps and my Cavalli Liquid Carbon. Now, the Carbon simply is a much more powerful amp, with the balanced output much much more powerful, and can produce a bit more meaty bass response and generally seems more composed and less strained. No matter how good the Burson OpAmp is, it is just the icing on top of the Texas Instruments TPA6120A2 cake. However, they both feature that musical, audiophile tuning where they have a full-bodied satin-rich sound with unfatiguing treble, and they both don't cheat to get that sound by EQ-ing mid-bass up and treble down.

Another popular platform to compare to is the Chord Mojo, the portable DAC/amp. Keep in mind that a comparison between these setups also means we're comparing the Chord DAC and Creative's DAC in addition to the amp sections, and any contrasts must be taken with a grain of salt. That said, the amp's capacity for power is more similar for both of these amps, bit more power for the X7/v5i desktop setup and now it's the one with a little more composure. The Mojo by itself also seems to have a tiny bit more treble energy... highlighting detail and that greater DAC accuracy recreation of the original, and blacker background for details to emerge from, but sometimes the abruptness that notes burst forth is almost startling. The Mojo by itself may not be the most synergistic combo with the HD800 for longer listening sessions, and in that respect the v5i+X7 combo is still quite dynamic but better for extended listening.

Now, the combined strengths of a Mojo + Liquid Carbon clear away fuzz and grain and give me the most subjective enjoyment. But that costs $599 and $799 respectively, and a full set of the v5i singles and doubles ($100) on top of a system that accepts drop-in OpAmps (my X7 is usually $399, but often on sale for $299) isn't embarrassed in the comparison. Objectively, after doing an A/B comparison, it's easy to start rationalizing what else the $1000 price difference could be spent on... even nice cabling upgrades start to make sense for a complete high-performance system before jumping to summit-fi.



In the end, the v5i seems "worthy" of the HD800, good enough for me to be satisfied with the notoriously picky headphone powered straight out of the X7 for convenience while being less fatiguing than the stock Sound Blaster X7.



Spoiler: Some Listening Notes



Arcade Fire: "The Suburbs" is fun, not boring!
Massive Attack: "Angel" is a fantastic bass test track, one thing that stood out to me was at the Burson OpAmp upgraded X7 was able to fill the soundstage with a thick bassy atmosphere while still making the string instrument that starts playing at 20 seconds in have a sound very tight/taut in texture even among that heavy bass, uncomfortably close to what the Liquid Carbon achieves.
Pink Floyd: "Money" has drum and cymbal hits sharp enough to reverb and reveal the size of the recording room.
Cowboy Junkies: "Walking After Midnight" can be sibilant on the "s" sounds and especially on the first blast of the harmonica, with the Burson OpAmps these moments are less stressful while not giving up any of the smoldering magic of this song as Margo takes the listener for a slow, slow, late walk on a summer night.
Andrew Bird: "Imitosis (Four Tet Remix)" infects me with chin thrusts and leaves me addicted, this song thrives on its sense of rhythm and pacing. The v5i does not disappoint... The only measuring equipment I have is my own ears, but I swear that square wave measurements would show better leading edge and sustain that "square shape" better.
The Mars Volta - Televators. Really cool chittering of animals right at the start have a sense of a big indoor area like an aviary, and the stereo panning causes the image of the soundstage to swim around with a fascinating feeling of a room moving around you. The unforgivingly revealing nature of the HD800 shows its head too. At 10, 12, 17 seconds and on, there's an easy to reproduce whine that could be from recording equipment or feedback, but it's clearly in the recording.

I listened to a ton of songs and my "Test Playlist" is now twice as long!

Dominating in the The Call of Duty: Infinite Warfare beta was an exhilarating experience. Very conducive to a rushing, flanking, hipfire gameplay style that was a lot of fun and very competitive on smaller maps. SBX processing sounds less distorted with more convincing virtual surround than ever with the new OpAmps. The stock X7 made it easy to be aware of what was going on around the player without needing a UAV or radar, but the Burson's refinement and fuller body make playing more exciting and fun without giving up competitiveness.




*Tech/Benefits*
So, why does a set of small $40 and $70 chips make a significant difference when added to a whole (and complex $400) DAC/Amp system like the Sound Blaster X7? It's because they were designed with lower distortion, wider bandwidth, and they are a hybrid Integrated Component/Discrete design. The lower distortion and hybrid design are a big part of why the Bursons sound more transparent, and the wider bandwidth (the Burson website quotes that the high frequencies can reach 50MHz) means there is less struggle to reproduce sounds within our human hearing range, which helps explain why the not-veiled treble seems smoother and more liquid.

  

Public Service Announcement: the v5i fits inside the X7, but they are tall enough that you can't fit or bend the compartment lid back on. They don't extend past the enclosure, as you can see in the pictures, so it's not a problem at all, but worth pointing out. After hearing their performance, I'm kinda tempted to put my X7 up on stilts (vibration isolation cones?) so that I could fit the really tall discrete v5 OpAmps sticking out the bottom!

*Cool Factor*
The Sound Blaster X7 is marketed as "the" high-end virtual surround gaming device on the market, and immersive gaming is my primary motivation in audio. Virtual Surround is a bit of an estimation and "One size fits most" technology right now (unless you have a Smyth Realiser), but the v5i's transparency really helps to create the holographic 3D sense of sound positioning. The transparency and separation also helps keep busy or chaotic action from overwhelming each other and creating a muddy mess. Lastly, these kinds of improvements help immersion. When I first got my X7, sometimes I would just stop in awe and take in the environment and how many things were going on at once. It trained my ears, spoiled me against ever wanting to go back, and the Burson upgrade makes me notice again atmospheric rustles and twinkling sounds that I had started to take for granted. Now that I'm 30, I appreciate any enhancements to awareness that can compensate for my slower reaction times in competitive gaming. The other guy may have aim-bot like reflexes, but if I can hear you coming during the heat of battle and track the moment you appear, or if I can out-juke you so you're facing the wrong way, well... let's just say I still get top scores.

Musically, the sound is more dynamic, full of interesting details and atmosphere, while also easier to listen to, then the experience is more stimulating and engaging, filling the hearing sense and imagination, and more likely to be a fulfilling standalone pastime.

Take the above, and only spend between $40 (singles) to $100 (a pair each of singles and doubles in a set) instead of spending $500 or more on buying an additional amp good enough to outperform what is built-in to the stock X7, and that is a very practical kind of cool.

*Best Use Scenario*
I like to use this section as a conclusion, because this final analysis should be the point that lingers in the mind.

The v5i is NOT the best choice when a colored opamp or amp is REALLY desired to "season" your headphone's frequency signature, or if you just want a big new piece of gear to feel and see a pride of ownership. If you don't have an amp that supports OpAmp upgrades, then obviously the v5i chips won't help much.

The Burson/Supreme Sound v5i is a great budget upgrade for owners of the X7, high-end PCIe sound cards, and other amps that support drop-in OpAmp upgrades. Not only do the v5i's save money compared to a whole system replacement, audiophiles and gamers don't have to give up on the simplicity, connectivity options, and features of just using an X7. Most importantly, it SOUNDS like another level up.


----------



## Guest12345

Hi @ Evshrug
  
 A noob question here (I'm still quite new to the whole op amp upgrading idea)... I've just read your post above.
  
 With regards to your 'sound signature' section, my understanding is that your testing routine was:
     a - Replace LME49710 with v5i single channel, while retaining the NJM2114D
     b - Replace LME49710 with v5i single channel, and replacing NJM2114D with v5i dual channel.
  
 Is that how you did it? Or did you retain the LMP49710 single channels while replacing the dual channel NJM2114D in part b?
  
 Will all three combinations of putting v5i in single channel and/or dual channel work together?
  
 Cheers!


----------



## Evshrug

guest12345 said:


> Hi @ Evshrug
> 
> A noob question here (I'm still quite new to the whole op amp upgrading idea)... I've just read your post above.
> 
> ...



I tried retaining the stock Duals (off the top of my head I forget, but NJM211D sounds right) while using the Burson v5i singles... and I was expecting a difference in timbre like I heard with tube amps, but I didn't hear the difference I expected.

Then, I tried all Singles and Duals replaced with v5i OpAmps... still not a tube-like change, but it was more obvious what had changed once I had in the full set.

Unfortunately, I did not try using the Stock singles (the LME, probably the LME49710 you mentioned) with the Burson v5i Duals alone, because the pins on one of my stock LME singles got bent when I took it out the first time. I probably could bend it back... but I was enjoying myself. LOL!

So, I only tried two of the three possible combinations, but I would still say that the v5i Duals are worth the price difference, and the full set has good synergy.


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## Guest12345

Interesting, thanks for the reply  
  
 Definitely something for me to think about - mulling over whether I might want to spend some money to give my X7 a different sound signature. Cheers!


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## Evshrug

guest12345 said:


> Interesting, thanks for the reply
> 
> Definitely something for me to think about - mulling over whether I might want to spend some money to give my X7 a different sound signature. Cheers!




If you would start by only upgrading half of your OpAmps... I felt that the change of the Duals made a more significant gain/change. But really you should get the full set.

And if you read the review, I was expecting to hear a different sound Signature... but I didn't, I just heard a more refined version of the existing signature.


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## Nikorasu

Hello I have the Sound Blaster X7. I'm new to the op-amp upgrading thing and I'm curious which one you bought. On the Burson website they have the Dual and single. I seen in yours that you replaced all 4 stock amps with the Burson. Did you buy the Dual V5i x 2 and another Dual V5i x2 that way your have 4?


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## Evshrug

nikorasu said:


> Hello I have the Sound Blaster X7. I'm new to the op-amp upgrading thing and I'm curious which one you bought. On the Burson website they have the Dual and single. I seen in yours that you replaced all 4 stock amps with the Burson. Did you buy the Dual V5i x 2 and another Dual V5i x2 that way your have 4?


 I know you have the X7, and the HD800, I quoted you before because I was trying to help info get your way.

As stated in the review, to have your X7 set up like mine, you would need a pair of Duals and a pair of Singles. Did you see the pic of the X7 stacked on top of the Carbon? Size wise, the Carbon and amps of that size fit pretty tidily underneath the X7, but I too enjoy just using the X7 by itself. Putting the Bursons inside the X7 doesn't transform the whole amp section to be as good as the Carbon, but it does get closer!


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## Guest12345

evshrug said:


> If you would start by only upgrading half of your OpAmps... I felt that the change of the Duals made a more significant gain/change. But really you should get the full set.
> 
> And if you read the review, I was expecting to hear a different sound Signature... but I didn't, I just heard a more refined version of the existing signature.


 
  
 Yep, for sure! Thanks for the clarification, I'll have a closer read of your review in that case!


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## Evshrug

guest12345 said:


> Yep, for sure! Thanks for the clarification, I'll have a closer read of your review in that case!




"Changing OpAmps did not color the frequency response, but as I kept listening I realized the changes touched all the little secondary attributes that are hard to find but define the "high-end" sound."

If there was any technical change, it was a slight reduction (maybe within a dB) in treble that's easy not to notice. If you DO want a shift in the sound balance, I've found the EQ in the X7 to be very good!


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## Nikorasu

I just want to mention you might can fit the huge Burson V5 op-amp in the X7 if you disassemble the X7 and use a op-amp extension cable.


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## Evshrug (Jan 27, 2020)

*The Surround Gaming Review Guide*

Part 1: Intro, Headphone Surround samples, and a table of contents (of sorts)
Http://www.head-fi.org/a/mad-lust-envys-headphone-gaming-guide-1-14-2016-final-section-updated

Part 2: Chico's "Frequently Asked Questions" section, probably most people's questions could be referred here for great answers. And humor.
http://www.head-fi.org/a/mad-lust-envys-headphone-gaming-guide-page-2

Part 3: All of Mad Lust Envy's headphone reviews, sorted by price groups, wth lots of spoiler tags for quicker navigation (this took me awhile):
http://www.head-fi.org/a/mad-lust-envys-headphone-gaming-guide-page-3

Page 4: Will be the long-time "contributor's" reviews. I will use price ranges and spoiler tags like part 3 to make navigation quicker.

Credit to Mad Lust Envy for the reviews, chicolom for the FAQ (and NamelessPFG for the PC Soundcard thread), Hansotek for the "title" graphic, and Evshrug for reformatting, editing, and posting it.


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## Evshrug

*Smyth Research A16 Realiser: Impressions*

Putting this here for posterity.

Click HERE

Short version: most impressive stand-alone unit I've heard yet, high price seems justified because of it's potential to make 2-channel speaker guys sad or hold a grudge.


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## Evshrug

*Speaking of Impressions:*
Tips for Getting the Best CIEM Impressions

http://www.head-fi.org/t/578855/things-to-consider-before-getting-your-custom-iem-impressions-done-the-perfect-fit/0_30

I think CIEMs can be a good choice: in a lot of ways, an IEM is the ultimate headphone (portable, private), and a CIEM is like the ultimate IEM (comfort, sophisticated design). However, my CIEMs never seem to fit right and so I never use them. When I went to get my impressions made, I wish I had the above tips and suggestions beforehand.

I also wish I had my ears cleaned a week before going to the audiologist. I had wax all the way up against my eardrum, and I'm sure the cleaning process causes inflammation and a bad impression.


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## raband

Anything you've learnt in the last year that you wish you knew earlier?

Has becoming a rep/sponsor limited some stuff you can comment on?

You've always been (and still are) one of those I know I can trust and rely on for honest opinions and discussion. Are you still allowed to be critical of products, or is it "if you haven't got anything nice to say, don't say anything"?


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## Evshrug

Haha, I really appreciate your appraisal!

I actually had a good idea that takes some of the things from this thread and some other stuff I haven’t written yet, looking for a way to package it up with a pretty bow Figuratively speaking, of course... or am I?

The way I can post on Head-Fi definitely has changed since becoming a freelance member of the trade, and honestly some of it crept up on me as a surprise because there’s a lot of overlap between being a contributing member of the community and a member of the trade. I still buy stuff and explore around, but I’ve had to have a few posts taken down because some things I thought were neutral or observations apparently were not. It’s easier to say nothing... but that crushes the spirit of what has kept me on Head-Fi for all these years! I need to change a bit how I contribute... and as my resources grow, you’ll see me providing content in whole new ways!

One example... all those Sennheiser Q&A’s? I wrote those, trying to anticipate the questions people ask. I’ve got a final draft of another one I’m waiting for Sennheiser’s graphic design department to spiffy up. I got approval for another Sennheiser project that I’m VERY excited to announce on the Sponsor Announcements and Promotions forum soon... that should be cool , something for you to watch out for. I’m also attending more CanJams; I got to help Sennheiser at CanJam NYC this year (I wonder if that interview with Jana will ever surface, since she got that great promotion with Stereophile!), and either Dekoni or Sennheiser will be endorsing me to go to RMAF this year. In New York, I actually helped out some other companies pack up and move stuff after I finished packing up the Sennheiser booth, and it’s cool to hang out with friends and community at dinners and events around the CanJams. Dekoni wants to do some Polls and small giveaways, that should be fun to set up! Hopefully I’ll be exploding Dekoni’s instagram @DekoniAudio soon, as I learn more and more about how to do cool stuff on Instagram and Facebook, and get to use my camera some more.

Of course, there’s also some stuff I didn’t know then, but I can’t tell you now  Like the HD 660 S I got to hear at Sennheiser Headquarters when we had a “Charlie and the Headphone Factory” kind of tour and the focus group of guests also shared what mattered most to them in audio, or the HD 820 prototypes I heard back when they were yellow 3D printed stuff and glued together, I couldn’t talk about that before but now I can say those were super exciting moments!

I was also playing with the idea of doing a follow-up video to my headphone leak video on YouTube, but this time with all the Sennheiser headphones I have at my home office right now. I was surprised how many views I got to that video... it was intended to show one guy how quiet a particular headphone leaked, compared to normal speaking volume. I got a lot of feedback that people didn’t intentionally understand why I was talking throughout the video... If I did it again, I could explain that all headphones leak if you have a sensitive enough microphone and turn the volume high enough, so viewers should adjust their volume to make it sound like I was speaking at normal volume, and compare the leak to that. I could post that video here... think that’d be a good idea?


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## raband

Thanks heaps for the detailed reply.

Obviously a new line drawn that you have to work out the best way to traverse.

Definitely made me jealous as to some of the inside knowledge of upcoming product you get.

Looking forward to the upcoming releases.


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## Evshrug

Sorry to make you jealous!


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## Evshrug (Aug 4, 2018)

*Why Use Sidetone?*

Sidetone, or “Mic Montoring,” is a feature that allows the wearer of a headset or user of a standalone microphone hear a live feed of what the microphone is picking up. It is used by gamers, but also often by musicians, voice talent (voice actors, audiobook narrators, etc), and broadcasters.

Recently, I engaged in a debate on another thread with people that wanted to turn the feature off, and it got me wondering... what would the benefits be of always having it on, especially for gamers?


Bad Sidetone giving a Bad Rep
Have you ever tried testing your mic’s gain setting in Windows, buy turning on “monitoring” in the audio properties control panel? You say “Hi” and Windows says “Hi” back, like an echo in a cave or gym. That lag makes it VERY difficult (for me at least) to form longer sentences because it sounds like you are interrupting and talking over yourself.

Years ago, I had some option for mic monitoring while gaming, and the lag was so bad that teamspeak was like trying to sing in rounds with myself, and it was so distracting that I turned it off and wrote off the feature pretty much for good. I thought there always would be SOME audible lag, but now I’ve learned that hardware playback options (most soundcards and most gaming headphones with DSPs) really are able to have imperceptible lag, and the experience is much more like when you naturally hear yourself with open headphones or talking with no headphones at all.

After getting used to it, learning to appreciate and rely on mic monitoring, it’s actually difficult for me to think of any time you might use a mic where it isn’t important to consider what audio the mic is picking up – with one exception.


Why use it: the Social Contract

Kinect Mics. AAAAAH!

The microphone itself isn’t all that bad, obviously it is intelligible enough for voice commands, and visiting at a friends house it served in a pinch as a microphone when I moved it and sat it on the couch near my head. But any console gamer knows what the problem is: there’s often that one guy, who leaves his mic on, you can hear his fans, you can hear his parents fighting in the other room, and you can hear someone singing in the shower. Don’t be “that guy,” it drives everyone else nuts and eventually they mute him, even if the gamer is actually trying to talk in the game.

Many gaming microphones try to prevent all that background garbage by being short-range boom mics, uni-directional or beamforming, or even  active noise cancelling, and those things help, but even then the wearer doesn’t know if they’re breathing into the mic, picking up a buzz from some bad electrical grounding issue, or simply self-aware that they’re shouting into the mic.

If optimized microphones and sidetone were not optional, but the default option just like the Kinect was the default microphone for early adopters of the XBox One, imagine how much easier it would be for each person to engage in enjoyable teamspeak? It’s being socially responsible. Sidetone is like the sense of touch: it helps give you a feel for if you can be heard well, or if there’s a problem that needs fixing.


Why use it: Improving Performance & Clarity

When you go out to lunch with our friends, you hear your voice in two ways: through the air, and conducted through your jawbones. With closed headphones and headsets, you mostly hear your voice through bone conduction: a muffled, nasally, very resonant version of what you actually sound like. Our brains either try to overcompensate and we over enunciate everything, or the opposite and mush up the little nuances. It’s like being partially deaf.

Great musicians have great ears, listening to themselves helps to calculate adjustments to prevent from their sound from falling flat or sharp. People who rely on their speechcraft also sound more natural or dynamic when they can hear themselves, it affords them better control over their performance. And gamers... it can help us be mindful against shouting, or if we start breathing into the mic, or if we’re mumbling. Nice audio is more pleasant to listen to and makes it more likely that someone will listen.

Plus, with closed headphones, a sidetone can be more pleasant and natural sounding to the wearer than just hearing the honky muffled version of their voice.


The One Exception

Feel free to tell me something I don’t know (that’s KIND OF THE POINT of this thread!), but I can literally only think of one instance where a well implemented sidetone could be a detriment. That would be with an open headset, where the sound leaks so bad that the microphone picks it up and you start a feedback loop (BUZZZZ!!). Even then, I could argue that would not be a “well-implemented” sidetone, as turning the sidetone feature on (at full “++” volume) with my Sennheiser GSX 1000 USB sound processor and my Sennheiser PC37X headset, which is an open-backed set with a short-distance cardioid Mic on a boom arm, doesn’t cause me any feedback issues.

Thanks for reading!


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## Evshrug

@Vader2k, you’re the best!
I realized I was derailing the other thread, but there was something in it worth exploring, and general enough that I could write about it despite being a freelance “Industry Insider.” Thanks for reading/the like!


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## Vader2k

Evshrug said:


> @Vader2k, you’re the best!
> I realized I was derailing the other thread, but there was something in it worth exploring, and general enough that I could write about it despite being a freelance “Industry Insider.” Thanks for reading/the like!



Oh wow, you expanded since I saw it around... 2 AM, I think.  It's even better now! You're welcome, though. It's a solid topic and worth discussing the merits even if the feature can seem off-putting initially.

I love your guide here and think it's a great companion to MLE's thread, and a good touchstone for both newbies to the hobby and seasoned people who might just need a refresher on a specific aspect.

Happy to see you're still adding to it!


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## Evshrug

Vader2k said:


> Oh wow, you expanded since I saw it around... 2 AM, I think.  It's even better now! You're welcome, though. It's a solid topic and worth discussing the merits even if the feature can seem off-putting initially.
> 
> I love your guide here and think it's a great companion to MLE's thread, and a good touchstone for both newbies to the hobby and seasoned people who might just need a refresher on a specific aspect.
> 
> Happy to see you're still adding to it!



Thanks bud! Every once in awhile.
I had to finish typing the post out in my notes app, Head-Fi often does this thing where it doesn’t let me scroll when I type with my phone. And, for some reason, I don’t get writer’s block when I type on my phone, haha!


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## Evshrug (Sep 27, 2019)

Something special arrived in the mail, after a long, 3 year wait... I have a feeling it's going to be worth it though!
Unboxing video:
I probably won't be able to "review" it with opinions, but I might be able to still film setup and describe it's functions.

Gameplay in the 2019 Modern Warfare beta
Initial impressions about the game as I come to grips with the gameplay, and a highlight moment within the last 10 minutes!


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## Evshrug (Oct 16, 2019)

*Is Bluetooth as Good as a Wired Connection?*

Back when I visited CanJam NYC in 2016, I got to talking to the two founding members of Bluewave, and after some extended conversation and demo of their soon-to-release Bluetooth receiver/DAC/Amp, the GET. They argued that the quality of Bluetooth has reached a point where the internal components used had a bigger impact on the final sound quality than the fact that it was wireless, and their device would have better sound quality than the headphone jack in my smartphone. I thought this was an interesting challenge, and I had to research and rethink my perspective on Bluetooth audio.

You see, Bluetooth is a digital transmission, so it bypasses capacitance and EMI factors of headphone cables. Then, the Bluetooth receiver must then use a *DSP* (like a computer) to decode and decompress the transmission, a Digital to Analog Converter (*DAC*) and an *Amplifier* before outputting to the headphone transducer (speaker).  When you buy a Bluetooth receiver, you’re also buying a DAC and an amp! With a made-for-Audio Bluetooth receiver, all the components inside have the opportunity to be built to higher spec than what is included in a smartphone or laptop.

The current state of Bluetooth audio is different than most people realize, and better than the stigma. There are advantages and disadvantages, besides not having a cord coming from your pocket.

*Shortlist of +Pros and -Cons*
+High res Bluetooth codecs (aptX HD, LDAC, LHDC) don’t have to re-compress Spotify Premium streams and have little to no compression added to FLAC streams close to CD quality (TIDAL HiFi, Qobuz high res).
+Bluetooth can extend further than most wires included with headphones.
+Wires (especially longer wires) can affect the sound reproduction, but Bluetooth is transmitted digitally with error correction, and the BT receiver, DSP, DAC, Amp, and headphone transducer/speaker are either point-to-point soldered together or have very short signal paths.
+The DAC and Amp can also be tailored to match the headphone.

The downsides:
-Latency is reduced but still present.
-While Bluetooth range is pretty long, sometimes it can be blocked by walls or subject to interference when many Bluetooth signals are blasting nearby.
-Bluetooth headsets are limited by battery life, and the source (I.E. your phone) drains battery a little faster than a wired connection.
-A battery and other electronics in a headphone/headset mean more weight and bulk, which is often the reason behind neckbands or short battery life in True Wireless IEMs.
-Bluetooth audio can only be sent to one device, so no silent discos.

*Bluetooth 5 and 5.1*
Back when the Sony Xperia XZ Premium, iPhone 8/X, and Samsung Galaxy S8 were coming out with Bluetooth 5 in 2017, I got really excited about its increased power that could be used for range or data transmission rate. Figures like 2 Mbit/s burst transmission at short range or lowering the transmission rate to achieve over 300 feet of range boggled my mind, and had me thinking Bluetooth could become an alternative for WiFi in some cases. However, I later learned that those high figures were only possible with two “class 1” Bluetooth devices (both transmitter and receiver), and that in a more practical sense these Bluetooth codecs would mostly affect advertising and “Internet of Things” devices. Bluetooth audio would remain mostly the same as the 4.2 era, with about the same 30 foot range and the audio bitrate determined by the Bluetooth codec.

*Codec Conundrums*
Want to stream Spotify Premium, Apple Music, or a social service like YouTube and Facebook? Bluetooth that supports AAC or aptX will be enough to transmit the audio without further compression. Want to stream TIDAL or Qobuz Hi Res tiers of service? Qualcomm’s AptX HD, Sony’s LDAC, and Savitech’s LHDC can carry higher bitrates, and at short range in a good environment LDAC and LHDC can “carry” most of a CD-quality FLAC amount of data, but they’ll probably need to compress the data just a little. AptX Low Latency and similar codecs interest me the most for gaming, because lag is always our enemy!

*Wireless Options*
We’re seeing many releases now for Bluetooth. There are the traditional on-ear/over ear headphones, neckband IEMs, what I’ll call neck-wire IEMs, and True Wireless IEMs, as well as Bluetooth Receivers.

On/Over-ear headphones were the first type of Bluetooth Headphones, but these days some manufacturers are beginning to experiment with Hi-Res Bluetooth headphones that are meant for serious listening.

Accessory neckbands that add Bluetooth to existing IEM models or are hardwired to rereleases of earpiece capsules (for example, the IE 80S BT or the CX 7.00bt from Sennheiser) add flexibility, and put the weight of the battery, remote controls, and electronics on your neck instead of hanging on your ear, and they often use the extra space for larger batteries and sometimes dual microphones for noise cancellation. Neckbands are also an easy solution for how to share one Bluetooth connection between the left and right channels. Neck-Wire Bluetooth IEMs, such as the Sennheiser Momentum Free, have an in-line “pod” hanging from the ear with the electronics, a shorter battery life, but they are flexible and easier to fold up into a small pocket-sized case.

True Wireless IEMs deserve their own paragraph here! They may be the newest, hottest thing, but they’re tricky to do well. First thing people realize is the earpiece battery life is shorter than we’re used to, and almost all of these come with a “charging case” that is essentially a battery bank... but I only use IEMs for one or two hours at a time before needing a break, and I recommend thinking about how long a typical IEM session comfortably lasts. These are intended as everyday carry devices, so charging at night or after long-term storage is to be expected. Second, how to sync and share audio between the left and right ear pieces? I’ve had different engineers tell me that basically the best way to go is NFMI, or Near Field Magnetic Induction. Bluetooth has difficulty transmitting through water or dense materials – like our bodies – so magnetic induction is better because it can go through or around the head to keep the earpieces in sync. One earpiece has to be the “Master,” so that’s why usually there’s one earpiece that drains battery faster than the other side. Thirdly, they’re a bit heavier than wired IEMs.

Bluetooth Receiver devices are a new category, and shouldn’t be overlooked. You could also call them a wireless adapter, because what you do is plug regular wired headphones or IEMs into this (usually little) device, and the device does everything from streaming the audio to powering your headphones. That way, if you already have a headphone with a sound you like, you can have your favorite flavor and get it in Wireless too. There are also a number of Digital Audio Players (DAPs) that also have a 2-way Bluetooth function, so they can also act as wireless adapters in addition to being their own source of audio.

DLNA servers or Airplay over *WiFi* are still going to be our uncompressed digital wireless solutions for now, and RF Wireless is still going to be the lag-free solution that should appeal most to gamers, though RF options are fewer now than they once were.

*Wireless and Gamers*
Well, the biggest issue I’ve seen is lag. Bluetooth receivers have work to do before they can playback sound. Furthermore, if Chat with a microphone channel is meant to send audio back to the gaming device, that cuts into the total available bandwidth and only certain audio codecs support an audio return channel. Games like PUBG Mobile switch to audio codecs usually meant for phone calls, which leads to noticeable drops in the game audio quality. That’s why Turtle Beach, Astro, and other gaming headset makers have often made “headset and base” combo units, using RF instead of Bluetooth. Sennheiser’s new GSP 670 and GSP 370 use a USB dongle that acts as an 2.4 GHz RF transmitter instead of using a big base station, and the GSP 670 only has Bluetooth 5 as a secondary transmission option for mobile devices. Lastly, wireless bandwidth, whether Bluetooth or RF, is usually only enough for stereo playback... so if you want a true binaural “Surround Sound” mix, the processing has to be done before transmission, otherwise the two channels of information are only really suitable for emulating two speakers in front of you.

However, I see some hope! Again, AptX LL helps a lot with the latency issue. And I don’t know what codec is supported with Call of Duty Mobile on my iPad, but I have a certain Planar Magnetic Bluetooth Gaming headphone that performs much better in the new game than PUBG, essentially with playable latency and much better audio quality!

*Conclusion*
Personally, I’ve observed huge advancements in Bluetooth audio over the years. Much of the old stigmas have been addressed, and I’m excited to see where the future takes us. As always, feel free to comment, correct, or add to the info here


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## KING DRANZER

Is there any better recommendation around $200 than ASUS XONAR STRIX STX II for surround gaming as well as extremely neutral stereo audiophile experience.


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## Evshrug (Aug 29, 2020)

Oh! I just realized something!
Since Sennheiser spun off their entire gaming division and EPOS Audio is a whole different company (and their partnership has basically ended, amicably), I can finally talk about PC gaming soundcards and DSPs again!

*For 7.1 Surround*, easiest to “place” sounds and sometimes trick me into thinking something is happening IRL instead of the game, in my experience:
Yamaha’s “Silent Cinema” < NX Waves < Dolby Headphone <= CMSS3D <SBX <GSX1000 <Smyth Realiser’s default (uncalibrated) HRTF.

I honestly feel the GSX1000 makes a strong showing in surround realism, though YouTube videos sometimes sound weirder and echoey compared to in-game, and while it’s perfect with a Game One/PC37X (almost like its made for it, hmmmmm!) and great with an HD 599 or HD 58X Jubilee, a harder to drive headphone like the HD 650 or a T50RP is going to suffer from the limits of a USB powered device... but it’s a clean enough headphone output for double amping!

I would really like to try Creative’s new Super X-Fi stuff... one thing I’ve learned is that how close or far your head and ears are from the generic “head” used in most Spacial Audio DSPs can make or break the Spacial illusion, and Super X-Fi allows some degree of customization using photos and an app.


For *7.1 Surround with Headtracking*... that’s a different story! Seems to be a major boon for a “VR-like” experience without motion sickness, even looking at a stationary screen all the minute “trembles” of your head and natural inclination to cock your head occasionally really helps “recalibrate” your brain’s sense of position. Think about it... with speakers, there is a bit of a crossfeed effect to both of your ears (which any spacial processing provides), and your head occludes and filters the sound a bit (HRTF, also should be included in any spacial audio processing), but also we’re free to slouch and lean and shift our position in our seat, changing our relative position to the speakers, and head-tracking is one of the last major ingredients in recreating that “speaker like” sound.

I think the NX Waves starts to pull ahead of the static spacial audio solutions when it comes to placing a sound as coming from a certain direction... but it loses some points because it still is a bit smeared and distance is a bit less natural. NX Waves is DEFINITELY helped by entering your head width, and the headtracking of motion, but it just doesn’t quite have the same level of performance and clarity as the others.

Hands down, the Smyth Realiser is the treasure of my collection. Head tracking, accurate customization based on microphones listening inside your ears (only needed during setup... but setup is a pretty involved process), a powerful processor dedicated to running their sophisticated algorithm, compatible with pretty much any computer or game console with USB or HDMI... it was always the best of show and a must-demo when Smyth was at a CanJam or other trade show. It’s amazing not only because of the peerless positional imaging, but also because of its ability to transform extremely transparent headphones (like a Stax or HD 800) to sound indistinguishable from the speakers you calibrated from. Once you get used to it, the only difference from a perfect Dolby Atmos or Ambisonics speaker setup is the lack of air pressure against your chest and skin... but hook up a subwoofer, and you can be transported to the AIX Recording Studio in Los Angeles even if you are only in a small bedroom trying to pub-stomp people in the latest shooter 🤣 There are a few major caveats though: price and availability. I got in on the Kickstarter Early Bird, but last I read the retail price is $4000. I had to wait four years to get my unit after I paid them, and the last update I got from Smyth (now one year after launch) they have only shipped 255 of the backers orders so far. There are also some smaller caveats as well. The reliance on speaker-standard surround formats like 7.1 LPCM or Dolby Atmos does give it great compatibility, but ultimately it’s emulating a 7 or 16 speaker setup without pure a binaural ability for sound to come from any arbitrary angle. That’s a small complaint, I mean Atmos is pretty good, but it’s not quite as much freedom as 3D audio in VR (but VR audio doesn’t customize based on your head shape... ah well!). There is also competitive-breaking lag when gaming with Dolby bitstreaming – Smyth may be able to fix that some day, but since most games are limited to 7.1 anyway, I just use the LPCM setting from my PS4 Pro (and 7.1 over USB with my PC) and that works fine. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Redscape Audio’s solution seems to work better than NX Waves, and I enjoyed several auditions at two CanJams (before and after the show was open to the public! Not crowded or noisy!), however I couldn’t actually play games, just listen to music and play videos. The interaction from playing games, the control over direction, usually makes games sound way more “spacial” and “3D” to me than watching movies with a spacial DSP (not to mention most movies make hardly any use of rear channels anyway, because they want to focus your attention on the shot shown on screen, while games have constant ambient noise and freedom of perspective), but the headtracking helps somewhat to provide me some interaction with the media (including with some prerecorded gameplay). You can’t take measurements from real speakers, but I believe you could enter the width of your head. I think it has the potential to be almost as good as the Smyth Realiser A16, and far more affordable and obtainable. I don’t know how much performance the software borrows from your PC to run, but I’d gladly trade a bit of shadow quality and resolution for Sonic immersion.


*The Future of Spacial Audio* looks interesting, but it’s a little up in the air. We’re seeing a convergence of object oriented sound tech like Dolby Atmos and Windows Spacial Sound, as well as more devices supporting playback, but we’re still waiting on widespread developer adoption and mainstream user awareness and demand.

Both Xbox and PlayStation have announced headphone spacial audio support out of the box for their upcoming consoles... but they said that for the PS4 and XBox One as well, with TrueAudio (PS4/AMD) and Sphere Audio (Xbox One), but developers didn’t take advantage of it, and surround audio output was limited to (bottom of the barrel crappy) controller headphone outputs, optical (which got cut from Slim models), and HDMI. Full USB support with 7.1 surround was possible with both consoles, but DSP makers like Astro/Turtle Beach/Platronics and anyone else interested had to pay about a $37 license fee PER UNIT MANUFACTURED... that cost would be passed on to the consumer or taken out of the budget for sound quality, and I just can’t think of a single good product that took advantage of this, including PlayStation’s own Gold wireless headsets. Will next gen overcome these limitations??? Maybe... there’s slightly more manufacturer promotion and press coverage about it this time, but we’ll have to see if game devs actually use it and we get quality audio components to use with it. I don’t see myself selling my Realiser 😂

Another piece of the future of spacial Audio is in the VR space. By its nature, the audio HAS to be in 3D for VR. And headtracking is assumed. My VR experience is with the PSVR, and though it doesn’t allow for head shape customization, the algorithms aren’t as sophisticated as the Realiser, nor can you upgrade to an external DAC/amp, I still feel my PSVR provides a compelling sound (and visual) experience. I would rank it above the NX Waves with headtracking, even though the PSVR can’t calibrate based on head width. It really gives me hope that at least Sony has the chops to do spacial Audio well, and I imagine the experience with a Vive is even better because maybe you can use it with external DAC/Amp components (can you??). For anyone that can’t use VR due to motion sickness, have hope that headtracking spacial audio might be able to give you that immersion without the nausea!

Here’s to looking forward to the future, and enjoying the now!


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## KING DRANZER

Recently one of my friend was renewing his 5Yrs old Setup. With RTX3090 Coming Soon things are getting interesting. For Audio setup this is what I recommended.

Sennheiser HD660S
ASUS Supreme FX + Dolby Atmos For Headphones > Monolith THX AAA 788 [For Movies]
Sennheiser GSX1200Pro > Monolith THX AAA 788 [For Games]
Monolith THX AAA 788 [For Music]

For Movies Onboard Audio Chip-set with Dolby Atmos For Headphones connected through Rear 3.5mm Headphone port to Balanced XLR Input of Monolith AMP. 
For Gaming USB output connected to GSX1200Pro and its 3.5mm headphone output connected to RCA Input of Monolith AMP.
For Music USB output connected directly to Monolith DAC. 

Is there anything better that can be done.


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## Evshrug

There’s always a better setup, but what you listed is very good.

Two things to note though:
1.) the GSX1200 is exactly the same as the GSX1000, except the more expensive model has analog connections to daisy chain chat to another GSX1200 positioned at a computer right next to you. The GSX1200 is for LAN tournaments, if your friend is just playing at home he won’t use that and he would save money by just getting the GSX1000 (which is what I have).
2.) The GSX1200 (and GSX1000) don’t have a balanced output. In fact, connecting the single-ended output from the GSX to the balanced input of the Monolith might cause electrical damage, so don’t try to do that.


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## Evshrug

Mark Cerny does an incredible job of explaining 3D audio, and it's massive leap in quality in the upcoming PS5. Just a heads up: He uses "Locality" in a similar fashion to how we use "Imaging," though to be honest "locality" makes more intuitive sense and I might start using that from now on, haha. But yeah! The last thing I heard was that Headphone spacial audio was going to be available on the PS5 upon release, that either at release or soon after there will be 5 HRTF profiles to choose from (with the potential that they might in the future expand options with a photo or video submitted to Sony so they can use machine learning to match your ear with their 1000 HRTF profile database, or have the gamer play a little "mini game" to determine which profile "scores" closest to your ears), and spacial audio expanding the capabilities of stereo or surround speaker systems would be forthcoming over the next few years (it's harder to recreate spacial positions that come from places where your speakers aren't, whereas with headphones they can control exactly what your ear hears)


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## Evshrug (Jul 15, 2021)

HD 6XX, HD 58X, and HD 560S Compared​I‘ve seen many people ask which of these they should buy... which is kind of a hard question, because it depends on what is most important to each person! I have all three. So, I thought I’d compile a quick comparison of descriptions of each, so that hopefully people can read and decide what seems most appealing to them.


*The HD 6XX* has the highest technical performance out of all three, and has the best dampening and least distortion. It’s tuning came from the studio-monitor like HD 600 sound, but the treble was intentionally reduced a bit so that mixing professionals or music enthusiasts could listen for hours and hours with less fatigue, and there’s just a bit more midbass to sound more like a home speaker system. So it has less sensation of “air,” but the drivers are quite articulate and detailed, also most people’s brains acclimate to the sound quickly so it sounds “normal” and pros can make mixing decisions based off it. The HD 6XX is a visual variant of the HD 650, and overall it is one of the most common HiFi headphones ever and a good reference point that has been compared to pretty much everything else. If I could describe the HD 6XX in one word, it would be “beguiling.”

*The HD 560S* is close behind the HD 650 in technicalities, with almost as much detail, and very low distortion. The HD 560S’ slightly smaller driver is also more efficient than the 300 Ω HD 6XX and needs less power to sound good, however the 120 Ω impedance of the HD 560S is like a sweet spot that helps with some dampening and stability in amplifier operation. The longer, 1/4” terminated cable is great for listening to a TV or turntable while you sit in a comfy chair, but it also includes the best kind of 1/4” to 3.5mm adapter to prevent damage to your equipment. Things get interesting when you consider the HD 560S’ driver is set at a 9° angle, meant to interact with your outer ear more, and also the HD 560S has more treble “air” than the HD 6XX, so it’s easier to hear positional directions and recording venue acoustics... the HD 560S has better soundstage than the other two. Overall, the HD 560S is tuned closer to a studio monitor speaker, and maintains its deepest sub bass more than the other two, but has also the most “linear” sound like a studio monitor speaker.

*The HD 58X* has an enclosure and flat-angle like the HD 6XX, and a driver size and impedance like the HD 560S, but it is the most “fun” sounding of the three, also the least expensive. A short cable, efficient to drive, more bass and treble to excite you, the HD 58X is lively and ready to immediately bring you a lot of fun. In one word, I think the HD 58X is “Perky!”

YMMV, hopefully from my description you can decide which appeals to you the most. I know it’s tough since they’re all between $180 and $220. Personally, I’ve been using the HD 560S the most lately, but it’s also the newest, so... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Do you guys think I should do a video on this?


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## goodyfresh

Evshrug said:


> HD 6XX, HD 58X, and HD 560S Compared​I‘ve seen many people ask which of these they should buy... which is kind of a hard question, because it depends on what is most important to each person! I have all three. So, I thought I’d compile a quick comparison of descriptions of each, so that hopefully people can read and decide what seems most appealing to them.
> 
> 
> *The HD 6XX* has the highest technical performance out of all three, and has the best dampening and least distortion. It’s tuning came from the studio-monitor like HD 600 sound, but the treble was intentionally reduced a bit so that mixing professionals or music enthusiasts could listen for hours and hours with less fatigue, and there’s just a bit more midbass to sound more like a home speaker system. So it has less sensation of “air,” but the drivers are quite articulate and detailed, also most people’s brains acclimate to the sound quickly so it sounds “normal” and pros can make mixing decisions based off it. The HD 6XX is a visual variant of the HD 650, and overall it is one of the most common HiFi headphones ever and a good reference point that has been compared to pretty much everything else. If I could describe the HD 6XX in one word, it would be “beguiling.”
> ...



Fantastic write-up, thank you for your impressions! You've now lain to rest my worries about whether I made the right choice with my HD560s: Since I wanted an all-rounder for music AND movies and TV, it sounds like I made the right choice by sacrificing just a tad bit of detail for the sake of better soundstage and positional imaging!

I think a video on this would be great!


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## Evshrug (Aug 6, 2021)

Prototype HD 8XX: First Impressions from an HD 800 Owner​
Hi everyone, I guess it’s time for my Prototype HD 8XX impressions. Let’s introduce with why: I have never seen a better price, new, on the elite HD 800 series as the HD 8XX, which maintains the landmark soundstage, articulation, transparency, and free-ear ergonomics of the HD 800 and HD 800S, while being tuned with a bit more bass than before. However, the little touches in tuning are refinements of the familiar signature, and it is still not a warm headphone that would satisfy bassheads.

*Who I am is important too...* not that I’m a big deal, but it’s important to disclose that I do contract consulting work for various companies, and I started helping Sennheiser as a Community Manager in 2017. I am no salesman, and I am not getting any compensation or commission from Sennheiser or Drop to do this write up, so my goal is to describe the experience as best I can so you can decide for yourself if a headphone is something you would enjoy or if you might end up processing a return. Hopefully I can share some insider information along the way! Also, I used to write headphone reviews after I joined Head-Fi in 2009, got my first HiFi IEM in 2005, played violin in grade school, and consider myself a lifelong gamer 

So! *How does the HD 8XX sound?* Well, in the context of just a few days to take a turn with the production tuned model (I got lucky with four days), here are the first impressions from my listening notes. By itself, the HD 8XX is an airy sounding headphone, almost a “diffuse field target” headphone with a lean and very focused sound, also retaining a “speaker like” ability to portray in front location and a sense of depth that sounds 3D instead of “layers” of depth or recessed in the mids. Compared to other brands of headphones and speakers that boost treble to seem to sound more detailed, the HD 8XX may actually sound a bit softer and does not stab you in the ear... but the HD 8XX is not treble shy, and in fact has plenty of quantity and sparkle. Compared to more recent bass heavy hifi or resonant low-fi headphones, or a home theater subwoofer, the HD 8XX may not seem to have stand-out bass warmth either, but if a track has bass in it the HD 8XX will play it like a monitor speaker would. Connected to a high quality, low distortion audio signal chain (amps and DACS appropriate for a flagship headphone), the HD 8XX can sound startlingly realistic and sometimes cross the line between recorded sound and something you thought actually came from in the room with out or just outside. Considering that, first person or simulation-level gaming can be incredibly immersive.

*How does it compare to the HD 800 I bought in 2015?* Besides the navy accent ring, the HD 8XX has a Helmholtz resonator that the HD 800 does not, acting almost like an air “spring,” absorbing very specific frequencies in the treble range. This technique is more precisely targeted and repeatable compared to mods using organic dampening materials, so your HD 8XX will sound like the HD 8XX I heard, and there won’t be trade-offs in other regions. The objective-minded can easily see how the HD 8XX mostly matches the treble of the *HD 800S* model within measurement deviation (I appreciate the still relatively minor upper mids dip centered around 2.5 kHz, as it affects the fundamentals of many instrument’s higher notes), but in experience compared to my older HD 800 the change in the upper mids and treble is a bit more relaxed... still quite sparkly and raw sounding (a hot-miked harmonica recording in “Walking After Midnight” by Cowboy Junkies is still hot), but it’s a “safer” step back from the Tightrope balancing act of an HD 800. The HD 8XX sub bass also has the most linear extension (and thus the highest) of the whole series, a subtle change that is appreciable but won’t make every song bassy. Keen observers will also note low total harmonic distortion overall... this is especially noticeable while listening in the bass, which is both a positive and a negative that I’ll come back to discuss a bit more.

It should be noted that the ergonomics haven’t changed... which I feel is a good thing. There is a dimple in the headband padding’s center, where usually weight would be centered, and instead it is evenly distributed to the sides. The ear pads take a light touch for most people, but the cups are deep enough to leave most people’s ears free from contact. Metals were considered too resonant, so instead super hard plastics were used in most places besides the mesh and top adjustment plate, and the whole headphone is remarkably light for its size, and looking straight on in the mirror the earcups don’t protrude super wide from your head (though your non-audiophile friends may laugh when they see them from the side). This is highly subjective, but the HD 800 was the only headphone where I had moments where I found a seating sweet spot and could actually forget I was wearing them. Conversely, I’ve seen some other people comment that they felt extra pressure making their jaws sore.

*What sounds good on the HD 8XX?* One of the things that surprised me the most when I first heard the HD 800 was how rich the mids and upper bass were, and the HD 8XX improves on this without completely changing the flavor that draws people to the series. Things like baritone voices in "Diamonds on the Soles of her Shoes" by Paul Simon or Bass Guitar in "Another One Bites the Dust" by Queen sound very well represented and the texture detail is a delight... even some EDM like "The Great Divide - Seven Lions Remix" by Velvetine sounds amazing. The large ring radiator drivers displace a LOT of air, approaching an almost flat planar wave of air which interacts with the curves of your outer ear as much as traveling directly into your ear canal. I can even feel the air moving the hairs on the skin of my ears at times, but the divers are unusually tight and detailed, so we don't get the "WuB WuB" usually associated with "big bass." All of the above, by the way, I highly recommend as fun HD 8xx tracks as well 

However, I do feel like some songs benefit from more “warmth”and fuzziness, and the HD 8XX isn’t changed enough by default to “satisfy” in pop music that relies on the synthetic sub bass notes and bloomy bass, like "Demons" by Imagine Dragons (lots of bad artifacts in that song) and I was surprised to discover how many of Rihanna's songs rely on just vocals and a "bass gimmick." The HD 8XX bass is still too tight to gloss over the unpleasant artifacts, or wash over me to get me excited. The old bass-test standby, “Angel” by Massive Attack plays its deepest notes from the very beginning... I’m a bit torn on this track, because if the HD 8XX was your only headphone, it sounds good, and compared to the HD 800 the small difference makes all the difference in making the track feel mysterious and threatening, but honestly if most of your emotional enjoyment comes from “subwoofer like” bass, then I believe you will actually get more enjoyment out of a headphone described as “warm.”

My mind is most divided on songs like "Undisclosed Desires" by Muse... because I LOVE THIS SONG. It's actually mostly a very "active brain" song with many layers of different instruments, a sexy beat/rythmn, and the HD 8xx provides a very energetic and exciting insight into the song's groove - again everything from that funky bass guitar to the the brass high-hats are very well represented. At the very end of the track, there's a few seconds where there's just a cool string bass viol note which seems to call out, with a deep synth bass rumble in answer. On the HD 800, the synth bass is barely audible, and the HD 8xx improves on this to where both notes are clearly audible, but they don't wash over you and submerge you in a bass bath. Considering the whole of this song, the majority of it is an awesome experience, but those last 20 or so seconds are a “calming after the crescendo” rather than a thick highlight moment of the track. But on a track like “Limit to Your Love” by James Blake, any more bass would be too much for that song, IMO.

With that said, the HD 8XX does take to EQ pretty well, and it’s easier to add a slower decay, distortion, and “thickness” to a clean sounding driver than it is to try to clean up a warm headphone with resonance and masking issues. Some DSPs can actually go beyond increasing the loudness of certain frequencies, and I had success with both my Smyth Realiser A16 DSP and my HiBy R6 Pro portable DAP to add these colorations and add a wash of bass that will carry you away in the flow of music... but for most of my music, I don’t feel the need for EQ and there is plenty to delight. I’m also going to go ahead and say that the HD 8XX will reveal harshness if present in amps... I tested on an HDV 820, which is a great fit (of course), but I also didn’t experience glare or sibilance (unless it was in the recording) on my un-modded HD 800 with my Cavalli Liquid Carbon + Chord Mojo setup, or the iFi iDSD Neo when I got to borrow that (though I liked it even better when I used the Neo + HDV 820 for amp duties).

*For gaming*, I tried to use the HD 8XX to play Call of Duty and Hitman. Unfortunately, the PvP and Warzone modes released a big patch right when I moved my setup (HDV 820 as DAC/Amp, and then I unboxed the Realiser) into the basement where my PS4 Pro and TV are, and I didn’t have time to update them in time for testing. Gunfire and the chaos of the Havana level in the MW2 remastered campaign was punchy and visceral, and frontal locations were clear, but unfortunately campaign tends to spawn NPCs within a narrow space in front of the character and stay firing continuously in one place, so this wasn’t a great test of spacial audio. However, one thing about the HD 8XX’s separation quality was that the audio was a lot less “busy” than my LG’s built-in speakers and it was easier to have good awareness of everything that was going on. Switching to the relatively much calmer Hitman, now it was much easier to hear directional conversational clues which were triggered even if the player character was halfway past walking by. The birds and other ambient noises really sold the environment, immersing me as a player. I can tell you from experience with my HD 800, PvP in Warzone (I recommend NOT using the high dynamic range if you want an extra competitive advantage) or Destiny 2 will get you accusations of wall hacks, and you should only play Resident Evil 7 if you are in the mood to get stalked or startled by the sounds in that game, with the “Dad” busting through walls and the “Mom’s” buzzing bees being very... unnerving 😁

*So, let’s wrap things up.* What with the HD 800 discontinued and the HD 800S regularly at $1600 USD (and occasionally out of stock), the $1100 for the HD 8XX is lower than I’ve seen in past sales, plus $200 Drop store credit can go towards completing your setup. Those who already have an HD 800 or HD 800S or really want home-theater subwoofer bass, the HD 8XX probably won’t tempt you, but people who let an HD 800 go in the past, and miss it, may find the little differences in the HD 8XX juuust enough to make the difference. If precise imaging, clarity, separation, and immersion in realism are your holy grails of audio, that is why the HD 8XX should be considered.


HD 8XX Synergy playlist I made:
Tidal:
https://tidal.com/playlist/53372ca1-2047-4d94-a839-6a9a97a56cff

Spotify:

Older HD 800 Synergy Songs playlist that I borrowed from for review, but also just good songs:
Tidal:
https://tidal.com/playlist/532bcd52-2354-4a45-829c-041d36175f04

Spotify:


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## inmytaxi

Good to hear another great value is available. I'm happy with what I have but this would be tempting otherwise even though it's a bit out of my price range.


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## Evshrug

Seeking advice!!!

Currently, I pay for both TIDAL and Spotify Premium. I’m also paying both my house mortgage and my former apartment landlord is being nasty about letting us end out lease early so we’re also paying rent (June should be the last), so I’m trying to save money where I can. I think lots of Head-Fi’ers use TIDAL, and Spotify has a free tier so anyone can check out music playlists I make for that platform (which is really fun for me). My wife borrowed my Spotify account, but has basically taken it over for teaching fitness classes and driving around. Sometimes we steal playback from eachother too.

Now, Apple Music has entered the fray with their higher res offering. An  Music family plan would be cheaper if it replaced the other two, we would have our own libraries, suggestions, and playback permissions (also any future children). It might also bring back the 2001-2015 playlists I had made for my iPods and iTunes library, but ALL got removed when an extended trial ended... but that also gives me pause, because when that happened in 2015 it also deleted all my CD rips and purchased music from other stores at that time, like a virus. I think that happened because I turned on the Cloud Library feature, but it wasn’t well explained what that would do at the time.

Are there other caveats to Apple Music I should be aware of? Are there enough Apple Music listeners here on Head-Fi that they could listen to my playlists on that platform (copied to Spotify using an ad-supported tier account)? Does the Apple Music app work OK on android DAPs like my HiBy R6 Pro?

Thanks for reading and sharing thoughts!


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## Evshrug

Some links and resources that were shared with me on Discord, thanks to those who shared (you know who you are!):

What devices are supported?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.macrumors.com/guide/apple-music-lossless/amp/

Verge speculation:
https://www.theverge.com/2021/5/14/22436575/apple-music-android-lossless-audio-airpods-3

More updated article, specifically about Apple Music lossless on android:
https://appleinsider.com/articles/2...upport-lossless-but-not-dolby-atmos-at-launch


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## cgb3 (May 30, 2021)

Evshrug said:


> Seeking advice!!!
> 
> Currently, I pay for both TIDAL and Spotify Premium. I’m also paying both my house mortgage and my former apartment landlord is being nasty about letting us end out lease early so we’re also paying rent (June should be the last), so I’m trying to save money where I can. I think lots of Head-Fi’ers use TIDAL, and Spotify has a free tier so anyone can check out music playlists I make for that platform (which is really fun for me). My wife borrowed my Spotify account, but has basically taken it over for teaching fitness classes and driving around. Sometimes we steal playback from eachother too.
> 
> ...


An interesting video on TIDAl ().

I don't do Apple.

I hate many things about Amazon (and Bezos).

That said, they're competent in delivering the items I order. Anything wrong, they give me the benefit.

I use Prime Music Unlimited. Full HD or better, in FLAC. $84.33 per year, plus the yearly Prime membership of $119.

I've tried TIDAL (never again), Spotify, & Quboz. Amazon has by far the largest library of my music (Jazz, Blues, Classic Rock, Classical).

Amazon offers a 30 day trial. Check it out.


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## Evshrug

cgb3 said:


> An interesting video on TIDAl ().
> 
> I don't do Apple.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the video, I’m familiar with GoldenOne’s videos and research into MQA... but I don’t get MQA at my $10 level of Tidal anyway, and I don’t (think?) I have any MQA certified devices either.

Does Amazon offer a discount on a “family” membership, so my wife and I can both stream music at the same time and not mix together both of our song recommendations? She’s all show tunes, country, and pop, and I’m into alt rock, classic rock, EDM, and also I go on kicks where I sample just about anything (including weird stuff my wife doesn’t like).

I do appreciate the help... I do a lot of research and learn all the time, but I can’t keep up with everything 😅


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## cgb3

Evshrug said:


> Thanks for the video, I’m familiar with GoldenOne’s videos and research into MQA... but I don’t get MQA at my $10 level of Tidal anyway, and I don’t (think?) I have any MQA certified devices either.
> 
> Does Amazon offer a discount on a “family” membership, so my wife and I can both stream music at the same time and not mix together both of our song recommendations? She’s all show tunes, country, and pop, and I’m into alt rock, classic rock, EDM, and also I go on kicks where I sample just about anything (including weird stuff my wife doesn’t like).
> 
> I do appreciate the help... I do a lot of research and learn all the time, but I can’t keep up with everythingFamily memberships at Amazon, for 6 devices, are !#



Amazon family (6 devices) are $14.99 per month, or $149.00 per year. This is in addition to the Prime fees.


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## SeEnCreaTive

Evshrug said:


> *For gaming*, I tried to use the HD 8XX to play Call of Duty and Hitman. Unfortunately, the PvP and Warzone modes released a big patch right when I moved my setup (HDV 820 as DAC/Amp, and then I unboxed the Realiser) into the basement where my PS4 Pro and TV are, and I didn’t have time to update them in time for testing. Gunfire and the chaos of the Havana level in the MW2 remastered campaign was punchy and visceral, and frontal locations were clear, but unfortunately campaign tends to spawn NPCs within a narrow space in front of the character and stay firing continuously in one place, so this wasn’t a great test of spacial audio. However, one thing about the HD 8XX’s separation quality was that the audio was a lot less “busy” than my LG’s built-in speakers and it was easier to have good awareness of everything that was going on. Switching to the relatively much calmer Hitman, now it was much easier to hear directional conversational clues which were triggered even if the player character was halfway past walking by. The birds and other ambient noises really sold the environment, immersing me as a player. I can tell you from experience with my HD 800, PvP in Warzone (I recommend NOT using the high dynamic range if you want an extra competitive advantage) or Destiny 2 will get you accusations of wall hacks, and you should only play Resident Evil 7 if you are in the mood to get stalked or startled by the sounds in that game, with the “Dad” busting through walls and the “Mom’s” buzzing bees being very... unnerving 😁




My experience with using actual high end cans with gaming, is sometimes the imaging is actually too good for the games. My Ether CX of course, small sound stage but really precise imaging. You start to hear the difference between your visual FOV and a sort of "Audio FOV" lets call it. Borderlands 3 really shows this especially when you turn on the official spatial audio support in the game. If you leave the game at the default FOV, everything sounds spot on. Sounds are coming from exactly where you'd think they're coming from. But if you increase FOV, like most people do on PC, something on that is on screen, sounds like it's directly 90 degrees to your right. Hitman is fantastic, mostly because the fixed 3rd person view. 

I HIGHLY recommend playing Hellblade: Senua's Sacrifice if you have a set of cans with a big sound stage. It makes a good test game


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## Evshrug (Jun 1, 2021)

@SeEnCreaTive Yes! I played Hellblade roughy when it came out, happily paid full price!

Right now, I’m playing through Remedy’s 2019 Control (on PS5 with Tempest 3D audio and ray-tracing, wear headphones and you can hear it too!)


but soon as I beat that, my next game is going to be Returnal, which was made to fully support 3D audio from the ground up!


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## Evshrug

“Facts are stubborn things, but statistics are far more pliable.”
—Mark Twain


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## iFi audio

Evshrug said:


> Returnal



Aye, this ne is on my list as well and the first I'll get into after buying PS5. But first Hollow Knight, what an incredible game this is.


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## Evshrug

Hey Everyone! I published a preview video covering the Retail Drop + Sennheiser HD 8XX:


A written version is to follow, but I need to mail this along to the next person (and desperately need to catch up on some chores, hahah!).


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## iFi audio

Evshrug said:


> Hey Everyone! I published a preview video covering the Retail Drop + Sennheiser HD 8XX:
> 
> 
> A written version is to follow, but I need to mail this along to the next person (and desperately need to catch up on some chores, hahah!).




Great stuff, thank you


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