# Astell&Kern XB10 Extreme Bluetooth Adapter



## gr8soundz

*AK XB10*
  
 http://www.astellnkern.com/eng/htm/accessory/XB10.asp
  

  
  
 There are a few bluetooth adapters like this already on the market (like Noble's BTS) that allow use of wired headphones with a bluetooth connection but a few things about the XB10 stand out:
  
 1. Apt-X HD (24-bit/48Khz and, unlike regular bluetooth and non-HD apt-x, no downsampling to 16/44 before wireless transmission). Still not lossless and the wireless stream is still compressed but apt-x HD has almost double the data rate of standard bluetooth. Should be interesting to hear this with some apt-x HD headphones (once they become available).
  
 2. Balanced 2.5mm out (as well as 3.5mm unbalanced)
  
 3. Towards the end of the video below, they connect an HD800S (to the 2.5mm balanced out) and the audio coming from them is so loud they turned down the volume on the XB10. Specs show up to 1.8V rms from the balanced out so there is a little power here which explains the short 5hr max battery life.
  
  
 
Specification







General Specifications

  
Model
Body Color
Dimensions
Weight
Bluetooth Version
Bluetooth Profile
Frequency Band
Range
Operating Temperature
 

AK XB10
Black
1.97 ”(50 mm) [W] x 1.97 ”(50 mm) [H] x 0.48 ”(12.3 mm) [D]
0.81 oz (23 g)
Bluetooth 4.1, Class2
A2DP (multi), AVRCP, HFP, HSP
2.4 - 2.4835 GHz ISM Band
Maximum of 10 meters
-10°C ~ 45°C (23°F ~ 113°F)
 

Audio

  
Codec
Port
Output Level
 

SBC, AAC, aptX™, aptX™ HD
2.5mm Balanced / 3.5mm Unbalanced
2.5mm Balanced : 1.8Vrms / 3.5mm Unbalanced : 0.9Vrms
 

Battery

  
Battery Type
Hours of Operation
Standby Time
Charging Time
Charging Method
 

350mAh 3.7V lithium polymer rechargeable battery
Approximately 5 hours for music playing and phone calls
Up to 300 hours
Approximately 2 hours
Micro USB 5Pin (charging 5V 2A)


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## slackerpo

yeah the verge just posted about it... go figure.

it made me rethink my westone bluetooth cable buy... as this seems iems future proof, including aptx hd support (awesome).

the balance output looks great, as it should be able to handle full size cans, and 0.9v unbalanced seems pretty legit for most iems.

cant wait for the first review to hit the deck!


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## tuxbass

I need my AK320 do be able to do this.
I always wanted to be able to use my phone to control the playback (Tidal Offline), feeding wirelessly into a DAC.

Even if they made a stripped down version of this as a dongle that received music wirelessly from my Phone and connected to my AK320 - that would be a day 1 buy for me.
I am surprised no one else has such a need or there is no such device already.


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## LajostheHun

For headphones there should be a direct connection, not a wired one between the receiver and the cans,otherwise what's the point.There are some of that on the market, but they are not very high quality.


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## slackerpo

lajosthehun said:


> For headphones there should be a direct connection, not a wired one between the receiver and the cans,otherwise what's the point.There are some of that on the market, but they are not very high quality.




that's your opinion.

i totally need something like this.

as it has evidently more output power than my cellphone, for better the driving experience of my iems


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## cityle

At that point I just want a Bluetooth cable. Already have a dongle with my AT-PHA50BT but now I want to be even freer and have have only a cable that runs behind my head instead of a dongle with a too long cable. Unfortunately, Westone only make their cable with MMCX connectors and apparently the Lear's one is horrible (still i,m thinking maybe about getting the westone one and change the connectors..).


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## slackerpo

cityle said:


> At that point I just want a Bluetooth cable. Already have a dongle with my AT-PHA50BT but now I want to be even freer and have have only a cable that runs behind my head instead of a dongle with a too long cable. Unfortunately, Westone only make their cable with MMCX connectors and apparently the Lear's one is horrible (still i,m thinking maybe about getting the westone one and change the connectors..).




#iknowthatfeelbro

even though i own a pair of um 30 pro, i'm afraid that the output power from the westone bluetooth cable wont come close to the output of the a&k. i wouldn't mind to have a the clip in the back as long as i'm properly amped.

maybe the only way to truly find out is to get them both...

what will you do with your AT-PHA50BT if you go for some of the options?


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## cityle

Gonna probably sell it as I wouldn't have any use for it


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## k4syx

OK I am definetely interested in this as I've always used this kind of dac/amp when on the move.
  
 I had tested and used:
  
 Samsung HS3000
 Samsung Link Level
 Elecom LBT-PAR500AV
 SoundBlaster E3
 Audio Technica AT-PHA50BT - and this is the one I am using now with my Sennheiser IE800
  
 All of them are Apt-X capable, I've never even bothered with devices with A2DP or SBC only. I am also using Sony BM10 for my bedroom rig.
  
  
 Anyway: I am very curious about the SQ of this new toy as my current audio technica device is the number one for me. I am also aware of the Noble Audio bluetooth dac/amp but all the reviews are mentioning bass rolloff.
  
 One of the local audio shops says that they will have XB10 soon for testing purposes so I'll try to compare it to my AT-PHA50BT
  
 (in case you'd be wondering the device list is ordered by sq, the first one being the worst (but still really ok) and the last one being the best sounding one.
  
 Sorry for my english - I haven't slept much last night as of the drives in my raid5 failed and I've spent past ~30 hours moving everything to new set of HDD's.


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## slackerpo

k4syx said:


> One of the local audio shops says that they will have XB10 soon for testing purposes so I'll try to compare it to my AT-PHA50BT


 
  
 cant wait for your references


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## agrosash

k4syx said:


> OK I am definetely interested in this as I've always used this kind of dac/amp when on the move.
> 
> I had tested and used:
> 
> ...


 

 This thread is so relevant to my interests  I'm currently on an E3 but desperately want to try the Audio Technica — so hard to get one to ship to Germany. Might need to order it to my colleague in AZ to pick it up there in a couple weeks...
 EDIT: Oh and I'm getting some good hiss on the E3 with my UE18 Pro. Hoping for this to be better on the AT.


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## k4syx

@agrosash: use Amazon and just click and try on the sellers list to find one shipping to Europe. I've found two of them some time ago (I was buying another AT for my fiend two or three months ago).

Also, take a look at ebay, you can get it from Japanese stores for the same price or maybe even little cheaper.

For AT and Elecom with Sennheiser IE8i I had to use impedance adaptor (30 Ohm) to remove background hiss, as they are 16 Ohms AFAIR, IE800 are dead quiet and no additional resistance is needed (though they are 24 Ohms).

I was thinking about writing detailed info about my adventures with all of them, but I've never found enough time


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## haiku

tuxbass said:


> I need my AK320 do be able to do this.
> I always wanted to be able to use my phone to control the playback (Tidal Offline), feeding wirelessly into a DAC.
> 
> Even if they made a stripped down version of this as a dongle that received music wirelessly from my Phone and connected to my AK320 - that would be a day 1 buy for me.
> I am surprised no one else has such a need or there is no such device already.


 

 I contacted Alex An from AK, and he said the XB SQ is nowhere near the AK 3XX Daps. So think twice before you buy....


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## gr8soundz

haiku said:


> I contacted Alex An from AK, and he said the XB SQ is nowhere near the AK 3XX Daps. So think twice before you buy....


 
  
 Wouldn't expect it to be at the 300 / 320 / 380's level. Don't know yet what chips are in the XB10 but if it only has a Bluetooth DSP / Soc chip with a headphone amp then AK's full daps should definitely outperform it.
  
 However, I (and others) have noticed only subtle differences in sound quality between current dacs and daps no matter the price. A few could barely hear a difference between the AK Jr. and 380 so they all bought the Jr.


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## slackerpo

gr8soundz said:


> Wouldn't expect it to be at the 300 / 320 / 380's level. Don't know yet what chips are in the XB10 but if it only has a Bluetooth DSP / Soc chip with a headphone amp then AK's full daps should definitely outperform it.
> 
> However, I (and others) have noticed only subtle differences in sound quality between current dacs and daps no matter the price. A few could barely hear a difference between the AK Jr. and 380 so they all bought the Jr.


 
  
 as long as it sounds anything like a ak100 im cool.


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## ViperGeek

I apologize if this has been asked already, or obviously stated somewhere in the glossies (marketing material), but what's the official release date for the A&K XB10?
  
 I ordered an XB10 from the Astell&Kern US Online Shop on September 9, 2016, and am curious if/when I'll see UPS walking up the driveway with my new toy.
  
 Thanks!
  
 - Dave


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## cj3209

It's too bad my AK 120ii doesn't support apX. Damn you AK, I don't wanna buy another AK dap...


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## ViperGeek

cj3209 said:


> It's too bad my AK 120ii doesn't support apX. Damn you AK, I don't wanna buy another AK dap...


 
  
 iRiver has been doing amazing things with firmware updates, so you never know (unless, of course, aptX requires new hardware).
  
 In a related quandary, now that I *believe *the new AK70 supports aptX, is the XB10 I just pre-purchased completely redundant?
  
 - Dave


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## cj3209

AK support just emailed me and said while aptX is not supported by AK 120ii, it will still connect to it. What?


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## gr8soundz

It can still connect because apt-x devices can also use legacy bluetooth connections. Apt-x requires that both devices support it to work at that higher level (same for the new Apt-x HD that only 2-3 devices support so far).
  
 So, if the AK120ii doesn't have apt-x it should still connect to the XB10 using something like standard A2DP bluetooth. Won't sound quite as good as apt-x but it should work.


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## k4syx

Exactly. Apt-X is just a codec, if both devices are not supporting it then then connection falls back do SBC or A2DP (worst case scenario, tin can sound with no dynamic range).


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## k4syx

Anyone seen a review of XB10 yet?
  
 I've found (maybe it was linked already) just this DigitalAudioReview piece:
  
http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2016/09/sorry-for-your-loss-iphone-audio-life-after-3-5mm/
  
 The first part is about DragonFly and then XB10. Seems like Mr Darko liked XB10.


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## slackerpo

k4syx said:


> Anyone seen a review of XB10 yet?
> 
> I've found (maybe it was linked already) just this DigitalAudioReview piece:
> 
> ...


 
  
 thats the only one i've seen so far. there are a couple on youtube though, asians reviews.


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## Scott_Tarlow

If I'm using a iphone, it won't get aptx... so this will theoretically sound better with another device?


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## ViperGeek

vipergeek said:


> In a related quandary, now that I *believe *the new AK70 supports aptX, is the XB10 I just pre-purchased completely redundant?


 
  
 In case anyone else was as confused about Bluetooth master/slave and profiles, this reply from A&K clarifies the difference in Bluetooth functionality between the AK70 (and other DAPs) and the XB10:
  
 "The AK70 will connect to Bluetooth devices, but it cannot read or stream audio via Bluetooth from other devices. The AK70 also does not have aptX HD built in, as where the XB10 will."
  
 I finally get it.
  
 - Dave


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## Scott_Tarlow

September is almost over and they still haven't shipped =(


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## k4syx

Local distributor here says that they  _should _ be available somewhere in November, though there is no specific date yet. But I suppose that on the other hand, they also _should_ be available earlier than that in US - since it is way bigger and better market.
  
 I know - I'm not helping


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## Scott_Tarlow

k4syx said:


> Local distributor here says that they  _should _ be available somewhere in November, though there is no specific date yet. But I suppose that on the other hand, they also _should_ be available earlier than that in US - since it is way bigger and better market.
> 
> I know - I'm not helping


 
 AK said by end of sept.


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## slackerpo

k4syx said:


> Local distributor here says that they  _should _ be available somewhere in November, though there is no specific date yet. But I suppose that on the other hand, they also _should_ be available earlier than that in US - since it is way bigger and better market.
> 
> I know - I'm not helping




"bigger and better" than who?


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## cj3209

cj3209 said:


> AK support just emailed me and said while aptX is not supported by AK 120ii, it will still connect to it. What?




https://us.astellnkern.com/collections/portables/products/ak120-ii

Well, now the above A&K link says that the AK120ii does support the aptX codec. I'm confused...


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## lostman

It doesn't mention AptX here:
 http://www.astellnkern.com/eng/htm/ak120/ak120_2_feature01.asp
  
 Might be a new feature through firmware upgrade. The hardware is powerful enough to handle a number of different codecs so adding another one in software shouldn't be a big deal.
  
 Can't wait for XB10. I think I saw it available in the Korean store. Maybe there's a way to get it from there.


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## DaddyMojo

gr8sound, thank you for starting this thread.  I saw the XB10 on a review today and immediately jumped over to Head-fi to get any impressions.  It looks pretty impressive for that price point and I am always looking for good portable gear for me son and I to trade. 
  
 I look forward to hearing more.


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## gr8soundz

No problem. Glad I could post something useful for other Head-fiers.
  
 XB10 still isn't available yet though. I've been watching listings pop up on Amazon for weeks but they seem to be for pre-orders.
  
 I've gotten away from bluetooth the past couple years but may have to try this one. Not a fan of A&K's lackluster support but tempted to try this first (afaik) wireless adapter with a balanced output.


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## slackerpo

daddymojo said:


> gr8sound, thank you for starting this thread.  I saw the XB10 on a review today and immediately jumped over to Head-fi to get any impressions.  It looks pretty impressive for that price point and I am always looking for good portable gear for me son and I to trade
> 
> 
> .
> ...


 
  
 wich review? care to share?


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## gr8soundz

No reviews yet (afaik). Just (quietly) 'announced.'
  
 http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2016/09/sorry-for-your-loss-iphone-audio-life-after-3-5mm/


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## DaddyMojo

slackerpo said:


> wich review? care to share?




I probably should not have called it a review, it is more like a press release with a description of the product. Regardless, here it is : http://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2016/9/8/12850268/astell-kerns-bluetooth-dac-headphones-wireless


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## Scott_Tarlow

Ak just gave me shipping notice!


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## slackerpo

scott_tarlow said:


> Ak just gave me shipping notice!




great news! where did you order it?


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## Scott_Tarlow

slackerpo said:


> great news! where did you order it?




Direct


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## ViperGeek

scott_tarlow said:


> Ak just gave me shipping notice!


 
  
 I just got mine this morning too, via Facebook PM (way to embrace social networking).  It was later followed up with an (old-fashioned) e-mail.
  
 No USPS ETA yet, but still a good sign.
  
 - Dave


----------



## gr8soundz

Good to hear you guys will have your XB10s soon.
  
 We'll all be waiting for impressions but, if possible, can you guys connect it to a PC using a regular usb cable (power and data). I'd like to know if the XB10 shows up as a playback device which would indicate it can work as external sound card and dac
 .


----------



## Scott_Tarlow

gr8soundz said:


> Good to hear you guys will have your XB10s soon.
> 
> We'll all be waiting for impressions but, if possible, can you guys connect it to a PC using a regular usb cable (power and data). I'd like to know if the XB10 shows up as a playback device which would indicate it can work as external sound card and dac
> .


 
  
 I doubt that will be possible (or they will advertise it) but I will try.


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## gr8soundz

scott_tarlow said:


> I doubt that will be possible (or they will advertise it) but I will try.


 
  
 Sennheiser didn't advertise it either but I found that connecting the Momentum 2 Wireless' usb to a pc or android (with an otg cable) allowed it work as a usb dac. The M2s sounded even better in that mode than either wireless or using the 3.5mm cable. This unadvertised feature also worked on a few other wireless headphones.
  
 Different companies and different products, I know, but usb mixed with bluetooth can have some surprising results. These types of adapters are relatively new though; can't hurt to try. Worst that can happen is the XB10 will start charging.


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## 329161

I ordered one from Korea via eBay, it should arrive early October. Can't wait, and I'll give some impressions of course.


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## Forty6

Love these bluetooth aptx enabled devices . Go Wireless best .


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## 329161

forty6 said:


> Love these bluetooth aptx enabled devices . Go Wireless best .


Balanced output too


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## ViperGeek

forty6 said:


> Love these bluetooth aptx enabled devices . Go Wireless best .


 
  
 It's just too bad that aptX HD support is so rare:
  
 https://www.aptx.com/products?field_aptx_type_tid=483
  
 My Galaxy S7 Edge is "only" aptX, but I'm sure streamed Bluetooth audio to the XB10 will sounds the best the phone can offer.
  
 - Dave


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## Scott_Tarlow

vipergeek said:


> It's just too bad that aptX HD support is so rare:
> 
> https://www.aptx.com/products?field_aptx_type_tid=483
> 
> ...


 
  
 TBH, I don't hear much of a difference between my iPhone (aac) and aptX devices with my nobel audio bts. we will see if this device proves to be better.
  
 Anyway, I should be getting mine in tomorrow since it looks like the distribution center is about 1 hour from my house.


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## gr8soundz

We also need a way of knowing when/if apt-x is active.
  
 I've paired devices that both had apt-x and it's difficult to tell if it's active (other than reading through bluetooth logs on the phone) or if they're just using a standard bluetooth connection.
  
 Only ever heard of one wireless headphone (can't recall which) that had an led pattern confirming apt-x mode. Would be nice if manufacturers added some sort of indicator. Now with apt-x HD that's even more important. Assuming the phone also has apt-x HD, how will we know the pairing between it and the XB10 isn't regular apt-x or worse?


----------



## yacobx

scott_tarlow said:


> vipergeek said:
> 
> 
> > It's just too bad that aptX HD support is so rare:
> ...




Can't wait to hear your impressions


----------



## shigzeo

I've got one in, too, for review at headfonia. I've done only a few minutes of testing, but I get up to 12 metres (line of site) wireless distance here in rural Japan when connected to an iPhone. The AK70 gets up to a metre. Quite a bit of hiss but overall, pretty nice design, easy to use, and cool functionality.


----------



## slackerpo

shigzeo said:


> I've got one in, too, for review at headfonia. I've done only a few minutes of testing, but I get up to 12 metres (line of site) wireless distance here in rural Japan when connected to an iPhone. The AK70 gets up to a metre. Quite a bit of hiss but overall, pretty nice design, easy to use, and cool functionality.




when can we expect the review to be up on the site?


----------



## shigzeo

slackerpo said:


> when can we expect the review to be up on the site?


 

 In a couple of weeks for the full review. However, I will supply early impressions, RMAA reports, and a bit more tomorrow at ohm-image.net.


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## slackerpo

shigzeo said:


> In a couple of weeks for the full review. However, I will supply early impressions, RMAA reports, and a bit more tomorrow at ohm-image.net.




awesome! i'll tune in.


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## shigzeo

slackerpo said:


> awesome! i'll tune in.


 

 A few more words about it today at HFN, but only a picture and vague hints.


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## Scott_Tarlow

Not full impressions:
  
 -build quality is much better than nobel audio bts
 -pairing is much better than nobel audio bts
 -mic quality is much better than nobel audio bts
 -bass quality is much better than nobel  audio bts
 -much heavier and bigger  than nobel audio bts


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## yacobx

scott_tarlow said:


> Not full impressions:
> 
> -build quality is much better than nobel audio bts
> -pairing is much better than nobel audio bts
> ...




Can you explain what "much better" means?


----------



## slackerpo

scott_tarlow said:


> Not full impressions:
> 
> -build quality is much better than nobel audio bts
> -pairing is much better than nobel audio bts
> ...




tell me more


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## Scott_Tarlow

yacobx said:


> Can you explain what "much better" means?


 
  
  
 the deep bass rolloff present in the nobel bts vs wired isn't there with the AK. AK sounds very close to wired in terms of bass


----------



## yacobx

scott_tarlow said:


> yacobx said:
> 
> 
> > Can you explain what "much better" means?
> ...




That's good to hear, if I don't get the lg v20 I'm getting this


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## slackerpo

http://www.georgecramer.com/uncategorized/astell-kern-turns-iphones-into-wireless-high-fidelity-players/
  
 not the most indepth, but it is something.


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## cj3209

So far, AptX on my S6 Edge sounds better than regular BT from AK 120ii, iPad, and ZX2. Streaming from Spotify at highest setting. Not too shabby. Both phone and 'puck' heat up a bit.

CJ


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## cj3209

Very light and a bit plasticky.  Would have liked a bit more heft.  It connects pretty easily to my Galaxy S6.  Only had two very brief interruptions; otherwise, the connection is pretty good.


----------



## slackerpo

cj3209 said:


> So far, AptX on my S6 Edge sounds better than regular BT from AK 120ii, iPad, and ZX2. Streaming from Spotify at highest setting. Not too shabby. Both phone and 'puck' heat up a bit.
> 
> CJ


 
  
 i would you assess the portability factor? transmission issues while walking? where you use the phone, hand held or pocket?


----------



## cj3209

slackerpo said:


> i would you assess the portability factor? transmission issues while walking? where you use the phone, hand held or pocket?


 

 Very small, easily fits in any shirt/pant pocket.  No transmission issues while walking; had two interruptions while standing.  Phone was in left pant pocket, puck was in right pant pocket.  Puck via 3.5mm to Angies.
  
 Sound quality exceeded expectations; clearly better than regular BT.  Would love to hear what aptX HD sounds like but only the LG G5 phone has it.


----------



## slackerpo

cj3209 said:


> Very small, easily fits in any shirt/pant pocket.  No transmission issues while walking; had two interruptions while standing.  Phone was in left pant pocket, puck was in right pant pocket.  Puck via 3.5mm to Angies.
> 
> Sound quality exceeded expectations; clearly better than regular BT.  Would love to hear what aptX HD sounds like but only the LG G5 phone has it.


 
  
 that sounds very promising. yeah a cant wait for the new phones to come up with HD. too bad i gonna have to change my 6p, that doesn't even has regular aptx support.


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## shigzeo

Um, so I had a very long day away from the office and was unable to get my article up. I will publish it tomorrow at ohm-image.net. Sorry, and thanks for the patience.


----------



## slackerpo

shigzeo said:


> Um, so I had a very long day away from the office and was unable to get my article up. I will publish it tomorrow at ohm-image.net. Sorry, and thanks for the patience.


 
  
 cant wait


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## ViperGeek

gr8soundz said:


> Good to hear you guys will have your XB10s soon.
> 
> We'll all be waiting for impressions but, if possible, can you guys connect it to a PC using a regular usb cable (power and data). I'd like to know if the XB10 shows up as a playback device which would indicate it can work as external sound card and dac
> .


 
  
 No joy on using it as a USB DAC:
  

```
+++++++++++++++++ Device Information ++++++++++++++++++ Device Description : Unknown USB Device (Device Descriptor Request Failed) Device Path : \\.\USB#VID_0000&PID_0002#8&d4d7222&0&2#{a5dcbf10-6530-11d2-901f-00c04fb951ed} Device ID : USB\VID_0000&PID_0002\8&D4D7222&0&2 Driver KeyName : {36fc9e60-c465-11cf-8056-444553540000}\0026 (GUID_DEVCLASS_USB) Driver Inf : C:\windows\inf\usb.inf Legacy BusType : PNPBus Class : USB Service : Enumerator : USB Location Info : Port_#0002.Hub_#0009 Manufacturer Info : (Standard USB Host Controller) Capabilities : Removable, SilentInstall, RawDeviceOK Address : 2 Problem Code : 43 (CM_PROB_FAILED_POST_START) Power State : D3 (supported: D0, D2, D3, wake from D0, wake from D2)
```
  
  
 It states right in the (cute, tiny) manual that the port is "for recharging".
  
 BTW, it's currently driving my power-hungry LCD-4's balanced, and with surprising authority.  Plenty of bass and nice, clear presence in the midrange and highs.  Asked for higher volumes (again, these are LCD-4's) it does run out of headroom, but for what it is, I'm extremely impressed.
  
 How are they getting that much sound out of a unit no bigger than a stack of four (US) silver dollars?
  
 - Dave


----------



## ViperGeek

Quick pic of the diminutive little XB10 "puck", overshadowed by a pair of LCD's.
  

  

  
 - Dave


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## Scott_Tarlow

Still not ready to post my full impresions, but something I have noticed: You can't pair to two devices at the same time. This is something I found really useful with the nobel bts. For example, I would be listening to a podcast on my phone and then maybe want to watch a video my computer and it would automatically switch when i pressed play on my computer (and pause my phone's audio). The connectivity issues on the bts are still pretty annoying, I haven't reached for it since i got the xb10 on saturday. 
  
 EDIT: Just figured out how to do it. Once both devices have been paired individually they can switch back and forth. Works as well as nobel audio just isn't set up the same way (you can enter pairing mode without disconnecting on the BTS).


----------



## ViperGeek

scott_tarlow said:


> Still not ready to post my full impresions, but something I have noticed: You can't pair to two devices at the same time. This is something I found really useful with the nobel bts. For example, I would be listening to a podcast on my phone and then maybe want to watch a video my computer and it would automatically switch when i pressed play on my computer (and pause my phone's audio). The connectivity issues on the bts are still pretty annoying, I haven't reached for it since i got the xb10 on saturday.


 
  
 The font in the cute, tiny manual is microscopic, and there are no page numbers, but there's a section called "Multi pairing" that seems to imply up to two devices can be paired, and switched back & forth.  I haven't tried it yet.
  
 - Dave


----------



## Scott_Tarlow

vipergeek said:


> The font in the cute, tiny manual is microscopic, and there are no page numbers, but there's a section called "Multi pairing" that seems to imply up to two devices can be paired, and switched back & forth.  I haven't tried it yet.
> 
> - Dave


 
  
 I just figured out how to do it... I'll edit the post above. The real issue is the manual sucks haha.  Also, do you find it hard to remember which buttons do what? It hasn't been great for pressing while not looking, I think something that many users might want. Since I mostly wear mine on my collar (I have a custom short IEM cable), I cant look at the device when I'm using it.


----------



## gr8soundz

vipergeek said:


> No joy on using it as a USB DAC:
> 
> It states right in the (cute, tiny) manual that the port is "for recharging".


 
  
 Thanks so much for checking that.


----------



## ViperGeek

scott_tarlow said:


> Also, do you find it hard to remember which buttons do what? It hasn't been great for pressing while not looking, I think something that many users might want. Since I mostly wear mine on my collar (I have a custom short IEM cable), I cant look at the device when I'm using it.


 
  
 Absolutely!  I've yet to *not *change the volume while trying to skip tracks (for example).  And trying to figure out whether DCT (Distinctive Clear Technology) is enabled or disabled is a bit tricky ("Did the green light blink?").
  
 I suspect once we get used to the user interface, and mostly just let it play music, it'll be much better.
  
 - Dave


----------



## 329161

Yes, yes, yes, this is all very useful, and interesting information, but, how does it sound? ?


----------



## ViperGeek

vipergeek said:


> BTW, it's currently driving my power-hungry LCD-4's balanced, and with surprising authority.  Plenty of bass and nice, clear presence in the midrange and highs.  Asked for higher volumes (again, these are LCD-4's) it does run out of headroom, but for what it is, I'm extremely impressed.
> 
> How are they getting that much sound out of a unit no bigger than a stack of four (US) silver dollars?







dcfac73 said:


> Yes, yes, yes, this is all very useful, and interesting information, but, how does it sound? ?




I'm sure there will be complete and critical reviews posted soon, but from my point of view, the XB10 is able to drive every set of headphones I own, and provide the highest quality wireless audio I've ever heard. 

Highly recommended!

- Dave


----------



## k4syx

I just got the info that the device should be available in Poland by Thursday, I'll go and check it out head to head with my current champion (AudioTechnica AT-PHA50BT) on IE800. I'll have also my DragonFly Red and Mojo with me so though I do not expect XB10 to be anywhere near them I'll try to compare them so anyone that owns one of these devices could relate (or try to...)


----------



## slackerpo

im really liking how this thread is going


----------



## cj3209

k4syx said:


> I just got the info that the device should be available in Poland by Thursday, I'll go and check it out head to head with my current champion (AudioTechnica AT-PHA50BT) on IE800. I'll have also my DragonFly Red and Mojo with me so though I do not expect XB10 to be anywhere near them I'll try to compare them so anyone that owns one of these devices could relate (or try to...)


 

 I have the MoJo and it's in another league compared to the XB10 but then I didn't expect it to compete.  I got it for mobility and Spotify streaming while on the go ie., I can leave the phone on a table and do some stairs or go on the treadmill in the same room.  If I'm sitting down and not moving around, I'll go for my MoJo and/or ZX2. - thank you.
  
 The XB10 has good enough quality via aptX but I'm waiting for more aptX HD devices to further improve the sound.


----------



## slackerpo

cj3209 said:


> I have the MoJo and it's in another league compared to the XB10 but then I didn't expect it to compete.  I got it for mobility and Spotify streaming while on the go ie., I can leave the phone on a table and do some stairs or go on the treadmill in the same room.  If I'm sitting down and not moving around, I'll go for my MoJo and/or ZX2. - thank you.
> 
> The XB10 has good enough quality via aptX but I'm waiting for more aptX HD devices to further improve the sound.


 
  
 do you have non aptx devices to compare with? im still trying to reference how substantial is the difference.


----------



## cj3209

slackerpo said:


> do you have non aptx devices to compare with? im still trying to reference how substantial is the difference.



Yes, I did a quick comparison with my ZX2 and iPad Pro and the sound via the XB10 has more clarity and impact while the others seemed dull and lifeless; its not subtle.


----------



## shigzeo

I'm sorry for the many delays. Here is my performance report/essay.


----------



## k4syx

cj3209 said:


> I have the MoJo and it's in another league compared to the XB10 but then I didn't expect it to compete.




Yes, of course. My point was that I can try to compare sound "signatures" if they are somewhat similiar or different. For example to my ears DragonFly Red has similiar signature to Mojo, of course Mojo besting DragonFly.




slackerpo said:


> do you have non aptx devices to compare with? im still trying to reference how substantial is the difference.




Let me put it this way: A2DP and SBC are reasons why everyone hates "wireless" connections and main reason why if I say that I'm using bt amp with IE800 people look at me like I'm crazy (until they try and hear for themselves what difference Apt-X makes). There is a reason why Csr (Qualcomm now) is charging for the technology license.




shigzeo said:


> I'm sorry for the many delays. Here is my performance report/essay.




Thank you! I wonder if you ever had the opportunity to try AudioTechnica AT-PHA50BT. When I was using it with IE8i there was noticeable hissing - as you are writing about XB10 - always, everywhere. Thats why I was using 30Ohm impedance adaptor to lower the sensivity of the Sennheisers. Hissing was almost not audible. Right now I am using IE800 and impedance adaptor is not necessary, this setup is dead silent, no hiss whatsoever so this may be also the case with XB10.

Well I'll hear for myself on Thursday.


----------



## slackerpo

shigzeo said:


> I'm sorry for the many delays. Here is my performance report/essay.


 
  
 cant wait for the rest!


----------



## shigzeo

slackerpo said:


> cant wait for the rest!


 

 Yes, onto haptics, and use-case details. I need to do a whole suit of battery run down scenarios which will push the final review quite into the next few weeks.


----------



## lostman

Is it possible to get AptX HD from a laptop? I mainly use my Macbook Pro to listen to music but I'd really like to be untethered and have to freedom to move around. AptX should work... I hope HD will too.


----------



## shigzeo

I think you'll find, as with AK DAPs, that mac laptops will not give much freedom over bluetooth. The metal cases probably zap a lot of the signal. I get very poor connection from my iMac (2012) at distances up to 20cm, and perfect connection from my iPhone inside up to about 7 metres.


----------



## lostman

I get decent enough range with my bluetooth Bose headphones (the quality is just OK; they don't use AptX). But even if range isn't amazing, it's nice if you don't have to unplug just go step away for a second. Taking CIEMs out just to put them back in a moment later is a bit annoying!


----------



## shigzeo

lostman said:


> I get decent enough range with my bluetooth Bose headphones (the quality is just OK; they don't use AptX). But even if range isn't amazing, it's nice if you don't have to unplug just go step away for a second. Taking CIEMs out just to put them back in a moment later is a bit annoying!


 

 If you get decent distance with your bose, you should get similar distance with the XB10.


----------



## Sound Eq

interested
  
 which would be a better pairing an iphone 7 or galaxy note 7 for better sq


----------



## shigzeo

sound eq said:


> interested
> 
> which would be a better pairing an iphone 7 or galaxy note 7 for better sq


 

 SQ should be the same. The DAC and amp are 100% external.


----------



## Sound Eq

shigzeo said:


> SQ should be the same. The DAC and amp are 100% external.


 
 i thought maybe it has to do something that galaxy phones support aptx while i am not sure iphone 7 does


----------



## ViperGeek

sound eq said:


> shigzeo said:
> 
> 
> > SQ should be the same. The DAC and amp are 100% external.
> ...


 
  
 As far as I researched, I believe this is correct.  Apple supports the AAC Bluetooth codec over A2DP, which wouldn't take advantage of the audio compression improvements found in aptX or aptX HD.  _In theory_, a Galaxy S7 supporting aptX (or LG G5 supporting aptX HD) should sound better than an iPhone 7.
  
- Dave


----------



## Scott_Tarlow

vipergeek said:


> As far as I researched, I believe this is correct.  Apple supports the AAC Bluetooth codec over A2DP, which wouldn't take advantage of the audio compression improvements found in aptX or aptX HD.  _In theory_, a Galaxy S7 supporting aptX (or LG G5 supporting aptX HD) should sound better than an iPhone 7.
> 
> - Dave


 
  
 I'll be honest, I paired mine with my dad's samsung and didn't notice a huge different between that and my iphone. AAC does a pretty good job I think, but really what I think most of the fidelity comes from the xb10 hardware itself.


----------



## k4syx

AptX does make a huge difference in "depth" and dynamics of the sound, though discussion about particular brands is pointless. Apple in general (there was one MacBook pro as an exception) does not support AptX as they would have to cough up licence fees. Samsung top line phones (since S3 I think) do support AptX as well as number of other phone makers (including some Lumias).
AptX always needs to be licenced as this codec is prioprietary and that's why CSR (recently bought by Qualcomm) maintains a comprehensive list of all equipment with AptX support ever produced.

I know this because I was closely following the AptX progress since I bought Samsung HS3000 with this codec and was blown away with SQ when paired with my Note 2. In all these years since then I was buying or testing every small BT/headphone receiver that I could lay my hands on, including some not available outside Asia as this is incredibly handy device for commuting - listening to music or watching movies on the go.

The only notable exceptions that I've made were SoundBlaster E5 as it is so big that it's not really portable (try to pin it to your shirt's collar before you'll say I'm wrong ) and recently Noble BTS - as literally almost everyone who reviewed it was mentioning big bass roll off.

I was always wondering why there is so few devices of that type as the idea is brilliant. The only answer for me was that CSR requires licence fees, and devices without AptX were so piss poor that there was no point in using them (and I know as I've tried some including Sony and AudioTechnica branded)

My current king of the hill is AudioTechnica AT-PHA50BT with AAC and AptX and I'm really, really curious if XB10 can dethrone it.
We'll see tomorrow afternoon


----------



## Fiberoptix

shigzeo said:


> I'm sorry for the many delays. Here is my performance report/essay.


 
 Your tests are with an iPhone 6 and not utilising APTX - is that correct?
  
 So utilising APTX / APTX HD should improve performance?


----------



## slackerpo

i love this thread


----------



## shigzeo

fiberoptix said:


> Your tests are with an iPhone 6 and not utilising APTX - is that correct?
> 
> So utilising APTX / APTX HD should improve performance?


 

 I have no idea. I can't use APTX with the iPhone, and using APTX via the AK70 is useless as connection issues destroy every signal I've tried to measure.


----------



## shigzeo

vipergeek said:


> As far as I researched, I believe this is correct.  Apple supports the AAC Bluetooth codec over A2DP, which wouldn't take advantage of the audio compression improvements found in aptX or aptX HD.  _In theory_, a Galaxy S7 supporting aptX (or LG G5 supporting aptX HD) should sound better than an iPhone 7.
> 
> - Dave


 

 In theory.


----------



## lostman

shigzeo, where did you get XB10 in Japan?


----------



## k4syx

Ok I got it, after some testing I've decided to buy it - more info tomorrow.


----------



## shigzeo

lostman said:


> shigzeo, where did you get XB10 in Japan?


 

 It was sent to me by Astlel & Kern for review at Headfonia. I did not buy it.


----------



## lostman

Cool. There's a headphone festival organized by Fujiya Avic coming up in Tokyo. Maybe they'll have them there!


----------



## shigzeo

lostman said:


> Cool. There's a headphone festival organized by Fujiya Avic coming up in Tokyo. Maybe they'll have them there!


 

 I'm sure they will. AK are huge here. If not, and if I'm able to come, it will be my pleasure to meet you. I am quite sure I will bring only my iPhone 6 and XB10. The XB10 isn't perfect but it is THAT good.


----------



## k4syx

Here it goes.

Sources: LG G3, Samsung Galaxy S6 Edge + (both Apt-X capable) + Neutron Player, tracks: FLAC and MP3 320kbps, some 128kbps files and mkv movies in Archos.

Devices to compare:
AudioTechnica AT-PHA50BT, AudioQuest Dragonfly Red and Chord Mojo (last two just for fun).

Headphones: IE800.


Build quality vs AT
More or less the same, with slight edge for AudioTechnica - black and silver are looking more elegant. The clip on XB seems to be better but as I've found this morning its more or less as useless as one found in AT. Good clip should be working like the ones on Samsung devices (Link Level) or Soundblaster E3. Looks like I'll have to use some self adhesive velcro on the back of the XB10 same as I used on AudioTechnica. XB10 is a tad bit heavier - we'll see if that means better battery life.

Interface vs AT

As I've already found out the buttons placing is at least strange. IMHO the next/prev buttons should be placed on faceplate along with the volume controls. Placing them on the side and volumne on the front is not very handy. Also, volume control using buttons instead some rotary element is in my opinion not the best idea. In general, AT wins the interface part hands down, there is no way to press something by accident and if you intend to press something on purpose you can do this without looking at the device. I have big hands and I always have to look at the XB10 to see if I'm changing volume or pausing track. But if your fingers are smaller or I don't know, more "sensitive" - YMMV.

SQ 
Bass: deep bass going strong and smooth to the sub level, really enyojable with IE800. No muddy midbass here, everything is audible and hummmms! (I'm a kind of basshead myself)
Mids: clear but a little distant, nothing good or bad to write here. Which should be taken as a kind of compliment really as there is nothing wrong with them.
Treble: clear, strong but without siblance - just the way I like them
Dynamics: good range, everything sounds engaging - no flat, dull tracks with this device.
Soundstage: OK. Not congested, not very wide. If I'd be forced to choose I'd say it is a little bit on the small side. Acceptable for my taste but I think that just barely. Definetely wider than the soundstage of Soundblaster E3 which was way to small for me to enjoy my music.
Others: No hiss whatsoever with 24ohms IE800 (them being very sensitive). Clear, black and empty background. Maximum volume levels with IE800 are ok, the max value is over my tolerance level but I was expecting it to be even higher. I will do some more testing here because I'm surprised that though they surpass my comfort zone I think that they still should be louder.


SQ vs AT
Bass: XB goes a tad bit lower than AT. Small difference but noticeable if your headphones are up to it.
Mids: AT mids, vocals especially, are closer and a bit more engaging.
Treble: more or less the same with slight edge to XB10
Dynamics: XB10 has more foot tapping effect, AT sometimes can get lost in congested parts of the track.
Soundstage: this one goes to the AT. This device has very, very wide soundstage, almost as wide as DACs like DragonFly or even Mojo. A winner here.
Others: AT hisses, just barely noticeable, on IE800. On IE8 hissing had to be supressed by 30ohm impedance adaptor. AT is also louder than XB10. Display - AT has a nice one, though I've never really used it. More like a eye catcher for strangers when commuting.




What I did not test: 
balanced output, battery life (yet to be determined), BT range (as I wear the device on me when my phone is in my pocket), pairing with two devices (I dont expect any trouble here, as this is something that my 2009 mono HM1200 handles well)


Price:
AT-PHA50BT can be purchased on Amazon for ~100$ (new, unopened etc) while XB10 is available for 189$ (I will not comment on some amazon 240$ offers)
I think that if you already have AudioTechnica you may think twice about upgrading it as it has outstanding price to value ratio.
If you think about buying some portable headphone amp, consider Dragonfly Red - for almost the same price DragonFly's SQ is ubeatable, however, it is not wireless - but almost as portable as XB10. 

But if you - like me - see that this kind of device is a must have, just try before you buy because like me you may end up with one in your pocket 

I'm sure I forgot to write about a lot of things as this is my first try at a structured review - so feel free to ask me anything.


----------



## slackerpo

k4syx said:


> Here it goes.
> 
> Sources: LG G3, Samsung Galaxy S6 Edge + (both Apt-X capable) + Neutron Player, tracks: FLAC and MP3 320kbps, some 128kbps files and mkv movies in Archos.
> 
> ...




great one. how substancial is SQ diference between the dragonfly red and the xb10? could you cuantify it percentange wise or with some other parameter?

i would be really helpfull some input about the difference in performance between aptx and non aptx devices, if you could.


----------



## k4syx

DragonFly sound is more detailed and comes effortless. If I'd have to use scale, then for DragonFly being 10/10 XB10 would be like 6.5/10. 
But don't get me wrong - XB10 is the best Bluetooth amp I've ever heard and I heard or owned most of the devices from this class over the years. It is very, very good and leaves all phone outputs in the dust (maybe I should mention this clearly in the review).

The DragonFly Red is just also incredible device, easily worth twice the price or more so it's not really fair to compare them. 

As for the SQ without AptX I can do some more testing connecting XB10 to my HP Revolve which AFAIK does not support AptX codec (unfortunately).

All non-AptX devices that I've heard over the years (A2DP,SBC) - even highly praised ones like one of Sony units recommended here on head-fi - sounded lifeless. AptX brings real dynamic range and without it music over bt sounds dull and flat. No details, no oomph, no engagement - no fun at all...


----------



## cj3209

k4syx said:


> DragonFly sound is more detailed and comes effortless. If I'd have to use scale, then for DragonFly being 10/10 XB10 would be like 6.5/10.
> But don't get me wrong - XB10 is the best Bluetooth amp I've ever heard and I heard or owned most of the devices from this class over the years. It is very, very good and leaves all phone outputs in the dust (maybe I should mention this clearly in the review).
> 
> The DragonFly Red is just also incredible device, easily worth twice the price or more so it's not really fair to compare them.
> ...


 

 Wait till aptX HD comes out.  I expect significant improvement and competition to Dragonfly Red.
  
 I've been listening for a few days now.  After comparing to 'regular' BT, I can't listen to it anymore.  As k4syx stated above, it's 'no fun at all...'


----------



## lostman

Is Mac OS capable of streaming with AptX HD? I know it supports AptX


----------



## k4syx

Last night I had some time to pair XB10 with my HP EliteBook 810 with Windows 10 Pro and there is nothing to write home about, really. Without AptX XB10 sounds dull and similiar to cheap 10$ bt receivers, maybe with a tad bit of bass more.

If you're not going to use XB10 with AptX capable device (I had no opportunity to check AAC) then dont even think on buying it, just invest the money in better headphones.


----------



## ascl

I received mine (via ebay) a couple of days ago, but haven't had much chance to listen yet. A quick test (using an iPhone 7 and AAC source material) was quite good, it is a little bass heavy, and there is maybe some clarity loss, but it is pretty small. 
  
 It definitely sounds better than the elecom receiver I also have (but it is also twice the price).
  
 Overall I am a little surprised actually, I think it is going to be okay, especially considering I'd use this on the move, which is hardly an ideal listening situation anyway.


----------



## k4syx

Elecom AFAIR doesnt support AAC and XB10 does, this may explain the difference if it s big, but of course XB10 has better SQ than Elecom anyway even when both of them are using AptX.


----------



## ascl

The marketing paper suggests it does support AAC:
 http://www2.elecom.co.jp/avd/cellphone/headphone/lbt-php500av/
  
 The difference was not night and day, but it was noticeable.
  
 EDIT: The build quality is very different. The Elecom feels cheap and plastic-y, the XB10 looks and feels higher quality.


----------



## k4syx

Ah, ok - my bad. I dont have an iphone freely available right now, though comparision between AAC and AptX sounds like something I'd like to do someday. Just out of pure curiosity.


----------



## DDDYKI

Gonna sub to this thread with a quick question: would something like this, paired with a phone (Samsung Galaxy S7) defeat the purpose of buying a DAP, like the Shanling M1 or even a more expensive one like the Pioneer XDP-100R? I already use the Momentum 2 wireless, but something like this might be useful for my Momentum in-ears or the Westone W30s I'm looking to purchase.


----------



## ViperGeek

dddyki said:


> Gonna sub to this thread with a quick question: would something like this, paired with a phone (Samsung Galaxy S7) defeat the purpose of buying a DAP, like the Shanling M1 or even a more expensive one like the Pioneer XDP-100R? I already use the Momentum 2 wireless, but something like this might be useful for my Momentum in-ears or the Westone W30s I'm looking to purchase.


 
  
 That's probably a *very *controversial question, but I'm going give it a qualified "kinda".
  
 If the main purpose of considering a DAP is to drive challenging and/or balanced headphones, and the quality, quantity, and sources available on your GS7 is adequate, then one could consider front-ending your aptX-enabled smartphone with an XB10 as a "poor man's DAP" solution.  However, there are many more features and functionality in a DAP, and some might consider squeezing your high-res FLACs through a tight, lossy aptX wireless pipe as sacrilegious. 
  
 By means of an example, there's absolutely NO way my GS7 Edge can drive my LCD-4's, but the XB10 does an amazingly adequate job driving these challenging cans, and the sound via aptX Bluetooth is surprisingly satisfactory.
  
 Personally, I own/love the XB10, but the AK70 is still at the top of my Wish/Christmas List.
  
 - Dave


----------



## DDDYKI

vipergeek said:


> That's probably a *very *controversial question, but I'm going give it a qualified "kinda".
> 
> If the main purpose of considering a DAP is to drive challenging and/or balanced headphones, and the quality, quantity, and sources available on your GS7 is adequate, then one could consider front-ending your aptX-enabled smartphone with an XB10 as a "poor man's DAP" solution.  However, there are many more features and functionality in a DAP, and some might consider squeezing your high-res FLACs through a tight, lossy aptX wireless pipe as sacrilegious.
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks for answering. I mostly have 320 MP3s, so between that and the consumer nature of my headphones, I don't see much of a challenge in driving anything. I still buy CDs and listen to 80s hair metal...no way will I find any obscure hair bands on HDTracks or elsewhere. I do prefer to listen via Bluetooth and really like how the Momentum 2 Wireless sounds over BT. I mostly prefer Bluetooth anyway, so I don't get my cord caught in anything or get wrapped up in my coat or something. However, my S7 is a bit finicky with volume (I have to boost it almost all the way up, or use my Sound Blaster E1), and Bluetooth performance can be a bit spotty depending on where I am outside. I do think the base aptX is a noticeable improvement over the standard codec; once I ditched the iPhone, my VModa Crossfade Wireless cans (AAC only) took a huge hit in quality & I couldn't get rid of them fast enough. After I move on from the S7, my next phone must have aptX or (preferably) aptX-HD.
  
 I've been looking for DAPs with aptX Bluetooth, which led me to the aforementioned M1 and XDP-100R. The former is cheap, simple, and easy to carry, but not so flexible with UI (no touchscreen) and comes from a company without a US presence. The 100R is a few times more than the M1 and comes from a reputable brand, but offers features I'm not sure I would use much, if at all (Wi-Fi [at work]; balanced outputs; DSD; etc). The AK70 doesn't have aptX, I think. Nor does the AK Jr, which I was also looking at for a time.
  
 I was looking at Westone's Bluetooth cable, which has aptX and an unobtrusive design (no cable running from my ears down to my pocket), but the reviews are so-so. The XB10 offers more features at a higher price.


----------



## gr8soundz

Looks like apt-x HD is finally catching on.
  
 A&K is releasing firmware to update its AK70 and AK300 series players to apt-x HD bluetooth.
 per Jude's post here (scroll down a bit):
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/812343/tidal-is-coming-to-astell-kern-players/60#post_12931454
  
 Audio Technica will be releasing a pair of apt-x HD headphones soon.
 link posted by head-fier @ljnew in the LG V20 thread:
 http://www.pocket-lint.com/news/139156-ditching-the-dac-audio-technica-dsr9bt-bluetooth-headphones-go-all-digital-with-pure-digital-drive-tech
  
 EDIT:
 A&K are also working on a Beyerdynamic Tesla based wireless headphone:
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/821419/hd-bluetooth-tesla-headphones-from-ak-beyerdynamic-24-bit-aptx-hd-2016-ifa


----------



## slackerpo

dddyki said:


> Thanks for answering. I mostly have 320 MP3s, so between that and the consumer nature of my headphones, I don't see much of a challenge in driving anything. I still buy CDs and listen to 80s hair metal...no way will I find any obscure hair bands on HDTracks or elsewhere. I do prefer to listen via Bluetooth and really like how the Momentum 2 Wireless sounds over BT. I mostly prefer Bluetooth anyway, so I don't get my cord caught in anything or get wrapped up in my coat or something. However, my S7 is a bit finicky with volume (I have to boost it almost all the way up, or use my Sound Blaster E1), and Bluetooth performance can be a bit spotty depending on where I am outside. I do think the base aptX is a noticeable improvement over the standard codec; once I ditched the iPhone, my VModa Crossfade Wireless cans (AAC only) took a huge hit in quality & I couldn't get rid of them fast enough. After I move on from the S7, my next phone must have aptX or (preferably) aptX-HD.
> 
> I've been looking for DAPs with aptX Bluetooth, which led me to the aforementioned M1 and XDP-100R. The former is cheap, simple, and easy to carry, but not so flexible with UI (no touchscreen) and comes from a company without a US presence. The 100R is a few times more than the M1 and comes from a reputable brand, but offers features I'm not sure I would use much, if at all (Wi-Fi [at work]; balanced outputs; DSD; etc). The AK70 doesn't have aptX, I think. Nor does the AK Jr, which I was also looking at for a time.
> 
> I was looking at Westone's Bluetooth cable, which has aptX and an unobtrusive design (no cable running from my ears down to my pocket), but the reviews are so-so. The XB10 offers more features at a higher price.


 
  
 i think you should definitly consider the xb10. it seems like a great match for your wired iems.
  


gr8soundz said:


> Looks like apt-x HD is finally catching on.
> 
> A&K is releasing firmware to update its AK70 and AK300 series players to apt-x HD bluetooth.
> per Jude's post here (scroll down a bit):
> ...


 
  
 yeah a&k seem to really be on top of their game. ill check the audio technica scoop.


----------



## lostman

XB10 owners, if you have a Mac, can you check whether it streams AptX or AptX HD? I can't find any info on this. I know for sure that AptX is supported and has been for a long time (always found it strange that Macs have it but iPhones don't)


----------



## cj3209

lostman said:


> XB10 owners, if you have a Mac, can you check whether it streams AptX or AptX HD? I can't find any info on this. I know for sure that AptX is supported and has been for a long time (always found it strange that Macs have it but iPhones don't)


 

 How would you know if aptX HD is even on?  When I connect to my macbook pro, it just says 'XB10.'


----------



## cj3209

cj3209 said:


> How would you know if aptX HD is even on?  When I connect to my macbook pro, it just says 'XB10.'


 

 OK, I googled it and my macbook says it is 'aptX.'
  
 FYI.
  
 CJ


----------



## k4syx

All AptX supported devices are listed on CSR portal, this is licensed technology so if its not there, no AptX support.


----------



## cj3209

Astell & Kern just released firmware updates to their newer players and is, supposedly, releasing FW updates for the older 100ii, 120ii, and 240 models to add aptX HD streaming.  I think this means that we can stream aptX HD from the AK players to the XB10 and get better quality than aptX streaming.
  
 I'm stoked....so much for selling my AK 120ii.


----------



## ViperGeek

cj3209 said:


> Astell & Kern just released firmware updates to their newer players and is, supposedly, releasing FW updates for the older 100ii, 120ii, and 240 models to add aptX HD streaming.  I think this means that we can stream aptX HD from the AK players to the XB10 and get better quality than aptX streaming.
> 
> I'm stoked....so much for selling my AK 120ii.


 
  
 I saw that too, and think it's brilliant that A&K is going "all in" on aptX HD.
  
 I'm wondering, though, about the use cases for streaming an already portable high-res audio solution, through aptX HD Bluetooth, to a second portable headphone amp.  Wouldn't the already excellent electronics in the headphone amp of the A&K DAP meet or exceed the amp in the XB10?
  
 - Dave


----------



## cj3209

vipergeek said:


> I saw that too, and think it's brilliant that A&K is going "all in" on aptX HD.
> 
> I'm wondering, though, about the use cases for streaming an already portable high-res audio solution, through aptX HD Bluetooth, to a second portable headphone amp.  Wouldn't the already excellent electronics in the headphone amp of the A&K DAP meet or exceed the amp in the XB10?
> 
> - Dave




Yes it does but with the XB10, I'm not tethered to my AK 120ii; I have more mobility. For instance, I can tuck my AK 120ii in my pocket, hang my XB10 on my shirt and listen and fast forward songs all while moving around and still have use of my hands. That sounds a little weird, lol...


----------



## DJ The Rocket

Mine arrived via fedex early this morning! First impressions:

-The round packaging is an example of getting too cute with a design. I had to basically perform a c-section to get the thing out!
-SQ using the SE output is just okay. It's a noticeable step down from what I'm used to, but not so bad I would return it. I would be able to forget about it easily in real-world listening situations, and just enjoy the music. Fortunately though, this isn't what I got it for.
-SQ using the balanced output is excellent! It sounds great with my M50s, even better with my PSB M4U 1. I don't think it's quite as great as the balanced out from my Geek Out V2+, but it's close enough to not really matter  
-strangely, the volume control rocker doesn't seem to work with balanced output, only SE. Balanced, I'm stuck using the volume on the player.
-the control layout isn't anywhere near as bad as I feared. Clipping it to my belt, it will have the same orientation every time, allowing me to make adjustments without looking

Right now I'm connecting with my [aptx enabled] LG G3. Later today I intend to test the SQ using my iPod Nano 7's regular bluetooth. Also I haven't tried listening with my balanced HD800, which will be the REAL SQ test


----------



## ViperGeek

dj the rocket said:


> -strangely, the volume control rocker doesn't seem to work with balanced output, only SE. Balanced, I'm stuck using the volume on the player.


 
  
 When I test-drove these balanced, I found that the Volume+ button wasn't doing anything.  Listening carefully, I heard a "double beep" every time, so I repeated pressed Volume- and eventually the volume decreased.  In my case, I was hitting the max volume of the little hockey puck.  I'm not sure if you're experiencing the same phenomenon, but my volume control does work with the balanced out.
  
 I've also found that it helps to max out the Bluetooth volume on my GS7 Edge.  I don't think the old concern over having multiple attenuators in series applies, but so far it seems to allow for more dynamic range coming out of my phone.
  
 - Dave


----------



## DJ The Rocket

vipergeek said:


> When I test-drove these balanced, I found that the Volume+ button wasn't doing anything.  Listening carefully, I heard a "double beep" every time, so I repeated pressed Volume- and eventually the volume decreased.  In my case, I was hitting the max volume of the little hockey puck.  I'm not sure if you're experiencing the same phenomenon, but my volume control does work with the balanced out.
> 
> I've also found that it helps to max out the Bluetooth volume on my GS7 Edge.  I don't think the old concern over having multiple attenuators in series applies, but so far it seems to allow for more dynamic range coming out of my phone.
> 
> - Dave




Huh. I was preparing myself to feel silly if that was the case here, but it is not. There's no double beep with a + press, and hitting - repeatedly for awhile or even holding it down, the volume did not change even slightly. Weird. 

So that's 1 it works vs 1 it doesn't work. Can anyone else chime in with their experience?


----------



## cj3209

dj the rocket said:


> Huh. I was preparing myself to feel silly if that was the case here, but it is not. There's no double beep with a + press, and hitting - repeatedly for awhile or even holding it down, the volume did not change even slightly. Weird.
> 
> So that's 1 it works vs 1 it doesn't work. Can anyone else chime in with their experience?




My balanced volume works fine-didn't even notice anything...it just worked. Try rebooting and reconnecting.


----------



## DJ The Rocket

cj3209 said:


> My balanced volume works fine-didn't even notice anything...it just worked. Try rebooting and reconnecting.




Actually the problem was much simpler and stupider than that. See, apparently there's a "key lock" function on the power switch....


----------



## DJ The Rocket

Sound quality update:

First--using a 7th gen iPod Nano as the bluetooth source (BT 4.0, but no aptx) there is a hit to SQ. The balanced connection mitigates it somewhat, but to me, it's not enough. The SQ isn't_ bad_ exactly, it's more like an absence of good. That's disappointing, the iPod nano + hockey puck combo would be an attractively small mobile setup. But I'll add more thoughts about that below.

I currently have an HD800 hooked into the balanced port, and thus I've located the puck's limits. It sounds good, sure, but it's not a particularly exciting variety of good. It's not eargasm level good, while every other set I've tried [with a balanced connection]. This seems to be an issue with the amp as much as the source signal. I say this because I've noticed that cheap amps (like the Fiio E11, for an example) can make the HD800 borderline painful to listen to, after even short 15 min sessions at moderately loud levels. In contrast, the amp in my Geek Out V2+ can push them quite loud without me feeling any discomfort whatsoever! The XB10 is really somewhere in-between the two.

So far for me, the PSB M4U 1 is the ideal partner to get the most out of an aptx connected XB10. The M50 vibrates too much with the bass, and yes I realize what a wonderful problem that is to have, as far as problems go. I also must mention my vintage Pioneer SE L40, for being eargasm inducing even through theXB10's SE port!

After one day of ownership I am absolutely thrilled with this purchase. My biggest complaint is thatnif you accidentally sit on it while it's playing, there's a strong likelihood that you'll turn the volume all the way up and hurt something in your ear as a result!

I'm considering trying to pick up a small used Android phone (of nearly any make/model) to use as a portable digital transport. It would require aptx and full USB audio support, and will probably be much less expensive than my ipod, which I'm selling in order to support this notion. Which in a way brings me to the last thing I want to say, the best thing about the XB10:

As great as it can sound now, we still aren't at it's true limits yet, as I haven't even seen a review using aptx HD! The future is looking bright at the moment.


----------



## slackerpo

dj the rocket said:


> Sound quality update:
> 
> First--using a 7th gen iPod Nano as the bluetooth source (BT 4.0, but no aptx) there is a hit to SQ. The balanced connection mitigates it somewhat, but to me, it's not enough. The SQ isn't_ bad_ exactly, it's more like an absence of good. That's disappointing, the iPod nano + hockey puck combo would be an attractively small mobile setup. But I'll add more thoughts about that below.
> 
> ...


 
  
 thank you for the scoop. i wont be able to get it, until i get an aptx device. too bad cause my 6p has served me well.


----------



## shigzeo

My review is finally of the XB10 is up. I hope it is helpful to someone.


----------



## shigzeo

dj the rocket said:


> Sound quality update:
> 
> First--using a 7th gen iPod Nano as the bluetooth source (BT 4.0, but no aptx) there is a hit to SQ. The balanced connection mitigates it somewhat, but to me, it's not enough. The SQ isn't_ bad_ exactly, it's more like an absence of good. That's disappointing, the iPod nano + hockey puck combo would be an attractively small mobile setup. But I'll add more thoughts about that below.
> 
> ...


 
 By the way, you can put the hold button on and protect your ears. I also put it in my back pocket.


----------



## ballog

shigzeo said:


> My review is finally of the XB10 is up. I hope it is helpful to someone.


 
@shigzeo Great review bro. I have been looking forward to replace my iBasso DX50 with the XB10 connected to my smartphone. I find that the DX50 lacks sub-bass, dynamics and soundstage. In view that I don't mind some hiss and I don't care about Hi-res, do you think this setup would be an upgrade ( balanced ouput would definitely be plus) ? I almost exclusively listen to earbuds - Monk, Monk Plus, TY Hi-Z 32Ohm, Auglamour RX1 and soon some higher impedance buds.


----------



## k4syx

Nice review. Though I have to say that I cannot hear any hissing with IE800 (16Ohm). It's always good to check with your own headphones if the hiss is there or not - or is, but doesnt bother you.


----------



## shigzeo

ballog said:


> @shigzeo Great review bro. I have been looking forward to replace my iBasso DX50 with the XB10 connected to my smartphone. I find that the DX50 lacks sub-bass, dynamics and soundstage. In view that I don't mind some hiss and I don't care about Hi-res, do you think this setup would be an upgrade ( balanced ouput would definitely be plus) ? I almost exclusively listen to earbuds - Monk, Monk Plus, TY Hi-Z 32Ohm, Auglamour RX1 and soon some higher impedance buds.


 
  
 To be honest, I think you'll find no improvement over the DX50 apart from an untethered experience, which, for me at least, is reason #1 this thing rocks. That it performs well is icing on the cake.


k4syx said:


> Nice review. Though I have to say that I cannot hear any hissing with IE800 (16Ohm). It's always good to check with your own headphones if the hiss is there or not - or is, but doesnt bother you.


 
 It's about ear sensitivity as much as anything.


----------



## k4syx

shigzeo said:


> It's about ear sensitivity as much as anything.




Yes, of course, though I've heard hissing in almost every other amp that I've tried (except for DragonFly 1.2 and Red) or smartphone output. I had to use "dampening" impedance adaptor (30Ohms) with most of the sources to get black, empty background.

But it is possible that everything else hissed in lower freq than XB10 and I just cant hear it (I'm almost forty so yes, that's a valid possibility).


----------



## slackerpo

shigzeo said:


> My review is finally of the XB10 is up. I hope it is helpful to someone.


 
  
 great read!


----------



## lostman

Thanks for checking Aptx HD on Mac OS. I hope it'll get HD one day. I think all it would take is for Quallcomm to release updated bluetooth drivers?
  
 I've never considered buying AK players but now that they have Tidal and Aptx HD... I recall reading bluetooth is rather poor on AKs. Is that correct?


----------



## shigzeo

lostman said:


> Thanks for checking Aptx HD on Mac OS. I hope it'll get HD one day. I think all it would take is for Quallcomm to release updated bluetooth drivers?
> 
> I've never considered buying AK players but now that they have Tidal and Aptx HD... I recall reading bluetooth is rather poor on AKs. Is that correct?


 

 AptX HD is useless on AK players. Max 1 metre, with cutouts. 20cm with no signal cut outs, but only if you have no other wireless things around, and you don't move too much flesh around the device.


----------



## 329161

I think it would be more useful, and fair, to compare the xb10 with Bluetooth headphones rather than dedicated DAC/amps.


----------



## shigzeo

dcfac73 said:


> I think it would be more useful, and fair, to compare the xb10 with Bluetooth headphones rather than dedicated DAC/amps.


 

 I must disagree here. Surely, if one BT performs better than another, great. But the BT DAC/amp is to be used in substitute to the player's internal DAC/amp, and should first be compared to that which it replaces. If not, there is no base, and no possible standard against which to test/compare.


----------



## k4syx

dcfac73 said:


> I think it would be more useful, and fair, to compare the xb10 with Bluetooth headphones rather than dedicated DAC/amps.




Well I was basically comparing XB10 to other devices in this class, that is BT amp/dacs. Comparison to DragonFly and Mojo is aimed for someone who knows them and have never tried bt receivers but would like to get some vague reference point.

Comparing XB10 (or any oher device of this type) directly to bt headphones is problematic because the headphones themselves are very different beasts, so youd have to choose one as an universal reference point. But sure, if someone can compare xb10 + wired sennheisers momentums to wireless sennheiser momentums that would be interesting to read.


----------



## lostman

That's a shame. Maybe AK will release a player with decent bluetooth range in the future. I can easily see why BT range would be terrible: all that thick aluminum. No way the signal is getting through.


----------



## k4syx

IMHO using XB10 with AK DAPs (or any other dedicated DAP) is pointless - let me explain why:

If you're using DAP as a source for audio data stream to XB10 only, then you're not using DAC/AMP section of DAP at all. And thats where they are meant to shine. 
All that DAP is doing in such setup is decoding audio file (FLAC, DSD, MP3 - doesnt matter), maybe adding some EQ on top of it if you like it, and thats basically it. Everything is done as digital data stream that goes directely to bt audio codec (like AptX) and then is streamed (still digital data!) to XB10 which is responsible for DACing and analog headphone amp section.

This basically means that you can replace DAP in this chain with any reasonable phone (or tablet) with any reasonable app (UAPP/Neutron or even PowerAMP - I own all of them) and as long as your using the same audio codec (f.e. AptX) youll get exactly the same SQ (not counting EQ or resampling or anything else youd like to set up in digital processing domain). 

And for me this is the best solution because of couple of factors:

1. AK DAP price is higher than almost any flagship phone in any given year
2. I do have my phone on me all the time anyway
3. I can do other things with it
4. SQ stays the same
5. Interface and audio library management, general flexibility offered by apps leaves DAP interfaces and usability in dust.

And thats why I always try to get my hands (ears?) on any good bt DAC/AMP available on the market. 

Thats just my 2c, but YMMV


----------



## lostman

You can always unplug the headphones from XB10 and plug it to the DAP directly from time to time. So not so pointless


----------



## k4syx

I guess so


----------



## 329161

shigzeo said:


> I must disagree here. Surely, if one BT performs better than another, great. But the BT DAC/amp is to be used in substitute to the player's internal DAC/amp, and should first be compared to that which it replaces. If not, there is no base, and no possible standard against which to test/compare.







k4syx said:


> Well I was basically comparing XB10 to other devices in this class, that is BT amp/dacs. Comparison to DragonFly and Mojo is aimed for someone who knows them and have never tried bt receivers but would like to get some vague reference point.
> 
> Comparing XB10 (or any oher device of this type) directly to bt headphones is problematic because the headphones themselves are very different beasts, so youd have to choose one as an universal reference point. But sure, if someone can compare xb10 + wired sennheisers momentums to wireless sennheiser momentums that would be interesting to read.


I was coming from the point of view that the devices you used to compare all involve wired connections and not bluetooth, and so should be inherently superior.
My take on the purpose of the xb10 was to provide bt ability to all headphones. To be even more of a fair comparison is to use the recent Noble bt device as a comparison. Exact same purpose.


----------



## shigzeo

dcfac73 said:


> I was coming from the point of view that the devices you used to compare all involve wired connections and not bluetooth, and so should be inherently superior.
> My take on the purpose of the xb10 was to provide bt ability to all headphones. To be even more of a fair comparison is to use the recent Noble bt device as a comparison. Exact same purpose.


 

 I have already covered the BT. Writing about it on a site not my own in comparison to other devices isn't fair. I shoot Noble Audio's advertising photography. And it is the only other BT device I own. For your reference: Noble Audio BTS RMAA.


----------



## lostman

Don't quite understand what's going on here:
  
 http://www.e-earphone.jp/shopdetail/000000106840/
  
 Some sort of AK Softbank branding? And it comes with headphones?
  
 Will probably get my XB10 over the weekend at Headphone Festival in Tokyo. Can't wait!


----------



## shigzeo

lostman said:


> Don't quite understand what's going on here:
> 
> http://www.e-earphone.jp/shopdetail/000000106840/
> 
> ...


 

 See you there.


----------



## DJ The Rocket

More accurate & in-depth impressions after using it daily this week:

* The sound quality seriously benefits from giving the device circuitry time to warm up. I haven't tested any to find out how much time is needed, but I feel like 15 mins will get you most of the way there (~75%?), but it takes about an hour to get to 100%.

* While both outputs improve by about the same amount, it's most important in the SE connection, because cold it sounds quite a bit worse then the headphone jack on my phone (LG G3, so to ne fair it's well above average, as phonees go). After 15 or 20 mins however, the SE out on the XB10 is about on par with my phone, which is really as much as I can reasonably expect

* Battery life is pretty atrocious. I'm not sure I've gotten more than 4 hours on a charge. I use mostly full size cans though, I would assume primarily using IEMs could help. This isn't a huge issue for me because I already have a small battery wth a built-in microUSB cord. It's not enough to give my phone more than a small boost, but it at least doubles the XB10's life, and I think even more, but I haven't formally tested it. Using the larger (but still pocket size) portable battery I use for my phone, the XB10 doesn't even put a dent in it.

Still, it's so small I would be happier if it was bigger and heavier to accomidate a larger battery. Since I need to carry an extra battery anyway, it.would be less clumsy to just put it internally on the first place.

* While I'm not a fan of the button layout on the top, It works well enough, if barely. I don't need to look to adjust the volume, I do have to take an extra second to verify to myself I've got the right one. The controls around the circumference are impossible to find. Even looking at it ai have to rotate the thing more than 360° to find the power/hold switch. I know that doesn't even make sense, but it's still true! 

It seems like AK used some top engineers to design the XB10, had a good artist to make it look cool, but couldn't afford an ergonomics/usability expert after all that. Hopefully the next version will sound even better AND be more easily usable!

* The bottom line hasn't changed: if anyone knows of better way to take balanced sound on the go for anything like this price point, I haven't heard of it! Everything else costs what, three times as much? The least expensive competitors are maybe Fiio X7 + AM3? Maybe the Pono? I haven't tried either, so while I imagine they sound better, how much.better


----------



## DJ The Rocket

* Bluetooth range is excellent; I've had solid connections at 15-20 yards, with 2 or 3 interior walls inbetween.

* another's complaint about the hardware controls: it seems like at least once a day Ill sit in a position that presses the volume + button (its always the + somehow) and it gets way too loud long before ive figured out how to stop it, let alone lower the volume again. The hold switch is not a practical solution, as I wrote above, controls around the circumference are neigh inaccessible. I've also inadvertently skipped tracks, usually somewhere in the middle of a several hours long dj set. Trying to find my place again is frustrating.


----------



## DDDYKI

I was thinking that maybe a small battery would work well with this, I'll have to look at work. I would also have sacrificed a few mm to fit a larger battery. But what do I know, I would have done the same to keep the headphone jack on the iPhone 7.


----------



## shigzeo

dj the rocket said:


> * Bluetooth range is excellent; I've had solid connections at 15-20 yards, with 2 or 3 interior walls inbetween.
> 
> * another's complaint about the hardware controls: it seems like at least once a day Ill sit in a position that presses the volume + button (its always the + somehow) and it gets way too loud long before ive figured out how to stop it, let alone lower the volume again. The hold switch is not a practical solution, as I wrote above, controls around the circumference are neigh inaccessible. I've also inadvertently skipped tracks, usually somewhere in the middle of a several hours long dj set. Trying to find my place again is frustrating.


 

 What is impractical about the hold button?


----------



## 329161

Early impressions from an hours use- balanced connection is pretty noisy and bad. SE is not bad. About as good as your average smartphone, except that the Xb10 can go louder. About right for the money. My B&o h5 wireless iems are better at about the same money though.
To be honest, I was expecting better from the XB, but can't really complain because of the price. Certainly not up to the standard of their other products. Those used to high end dedicated daps like A&K's own, and Sony zx1/2 etc, will likely find the sound quality a noticeable step down.
Just my two cents.


----------



## cj3209

dcfac73 said:


> Early impressions from an hours use- balanced connection is pretty noisy and bad. SE is not bad. About as good as your average smartphone, except that the Xb10 can go louder. About right for the money. My B&o h5 wireless iems are better at about the same money though.
> To be honest, I was expecting better from the XB, but can't really complain because of the price. Certainly not up to the standard of their other products. Those used to high end dedicated daps like A&K's own, and Sony zx1/2 etc, will likely find the sound quality a noticeable step down.
> Just my two cents.


 

 Interesting.  Perhaps your expectations were much higher than mine.  I think the balanced out connected to my CIEM Angies sound very very decent on Spotify - this is via aptX and not 'regular' bluetooth.  Can't wait to try aptX HD.  I don't hear noise, honestly.  I don't think you should use 'regular' BT with the XB10.


----------



## dopeyzombie

Hi guys,
  
 I currently am using Iphone 6+ and Angie, but was wondering if getting the xb10 using balance out will experience the same "eargasm" as when I first started listen to music with IEM.
  
 Thanks for the feedback.


----------



## shigzeo

dopeyzombie said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I currently am using Iphone 6+ and Angie, but was wondering if getting the xb10 using balance out will experience the same "eargasm" as when I first started listen to music with IEM.
> 
> Thanks for the feedback.


 

 No.


----------



## cj3209

dopeyzombie said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I currently am using Iphone 6+ and Angie, but was wondering if getting the xb10 using balance out will experience the same "eargasm" as when I first started listen to music with IEM.
> 
> Thanks for the feedback.


 

 No, because the iPhone 6+ doesn't have aptX.  If it did, it would sound better with the XB10.


----------



## dopeyzombie

Thanks for the feedback, guess I'll wait for IPhone 8 hoping AptX HD will be included.


----------



## lostman

Doubt it 
  
 Apple head the "courage" to get rid of headphone jack but they didn't have the courage to pay for AptX/HD licensing fees. Or at least have their own high-def codec.
  
 I always wondered why Mac OS has AptX and iPhone doesn't. My best guess is that because Macbook has Qualcomm bluetooth chip and it's just something Qualcomm includes in the bluetooth drivers? It's all very murky and that's probably the reason why we don't have widely adopted high-def wireless yet.
  
 And Sony are pushing their own thing...


----------



## lostman

Interesting: Sony has a MMCX bluetooth cable that supports AptX (no HD) and their own LDAC:
 http://www.sony.jp/headphone/products/MUC-M2BT1/index.html
  
 There aren't any AptX HD transmitters yet but for LDAC one can at least get Sony's latest walkman.


----------



## slackerpo

lostman said:


> Interesting: Sony has a MMCX bluetooth cable that supports AptX (no HD) and their own LDAC:
> http://www.sony.jp/headphone/products/MUC-M2BT1/index.html
> 
> There aren't any AptX HD transmitters yet but for LDAC one can at least get Sony's latest walkman.


 
  
 thanks for the scoop


----------



## ViperGeek

Another DAP enters the aptX fray:
  
 https://www.headphone.com/blogs/news/the-footloose-and-wire-free-fiio-x1-ii-high-resolution-media-player-is-a-killer
  
 - Dave


----------



## DDDYKI

vipergeek said:


> Another DAP enters the aptX fray:
> 
> https://www.headphone.com/blogs/news/the-footloose-and-wire-free-fiio-x1-ii-high-resolution-media-player-is-a-killer
> 
> - Dave


 
 I don't believe it supports aptX. 
 http://www.fiio.net/en/products/57
 http://www.head-fi.org/newsearch/?search=aptX&resultSortingPreference=recency&byuser=&output=posts&sdate=0&newer=1&type=all&containingthread%5B0%5D=819817&advanced=1


----------



## MrOTL

Good for iphone 7 users... I think.


----------



## WAS55

Astell & Kern introduced a firmware upgrade for the AK3xx series units in October (included in the upgrade from 1.12 to 1.20 firmware for the AK320) that allows them to send aptX HD Bluetooth information to the XB10 and other devices that incorporate the Qualcom aptX HD chipset.  Only problem is the firmware upgrade did not contain an option switch to allow the AK3xx units to send either the older aptX Bluetooth codex info or the newer aptX HD info.   Receiving devices that do not have the aptX HD chipset will have issues talking to an AK3xx device.   In my case a Bose Soundtouch 30 III speaker worked fine with the 1.12 firmware that sent aptX info but does not work with the 1.20 firmware that supports aptX HD.   Seems like a shame to have to purchase a $189 item to use an older device when AK has the software for both options and could have included this in the firmware.   I have made AK USA support aware of the issue.  Will be interesting to see how they respond.
  
 WAS55


----------



## gr8soundz

That has to be an issue with AK's coding of the firmware. Apt-x HD requires a specific chipset (CSR8675) which is why most older apt-x only devices can't be upgraded. However, the HD chipset can certainly handle legacy bluetooth codecs unless something is wrong with the software controlling it. I too hope AK resolves this but, based on my experience with them, who knows.


----------



## WAS55

Yes, it is absolutely a firmware coding issue for the AK3xx series units.  With their latest firmware update AK has made the AK3xx series units unable to stream Bluetooth to any device that does not have aptX HD capability.  Which means almost every device out there except the XB10.  My solution was to revert to the 1.12 firmware on my AK320 until AK resolves the issue - but this is suboptimum as I lose things like Tidal that came with the 1.20 firmware.   I could update my AK320 firmware to 1.20, buy an XB10, hook the XB10 to the aux input on the Bose speaker and that would work - but at a cost of $189 for what should be in the AK320 firmware.   I have mentioned this issue on the AK320 thread as well.  Hopefully AK USA customer support will pass on the issue to the firmware guys at AK in Korea. 
  
 WAS55


----------



## Iron-Buddha

Got an XB10.  Like it more than the BTS.   2.5mm is a great option.  I don't have to switch cables on my IEM's anymore.  Basically, my iPhone, iPad and Mac use the XB10 and I listen to music via my AK320, 100% balanced all the time.
  
 It does feel plasticky though and is a fingerprint magnet.  But it does look a bit better than the BTS.  The BTS has this rubber flap thing that doesn't sit flush on my unit.  The audio cues on the BTS also sound very low quality.


----------



## k4syx

Just a quick update in three areas:

1. Battery

About 5 hours non-stop with IE800. Could be better (always, right?) but no complaints here (could be worse too).


2. AKG K7XX

Just got them. After burn in and two mods (bass reflex and service covers foam) I thought about trying them with XB10 and it is able to drive them nicely - nothing to complain about. So I can be a trend setter and use them as a mobile setup 

3. Volume levels.

Ive checked that and yes they could be better with both IE800 and K7XX. It is high enough for my needs but I'd really expect maximum value to be higher, especially with IE800.


----------



## shigzeo

lostman said:


> Interesting: Sony has a MMCX bluetooth cable that supports AptX (no HD) and their own LDAC:
> http://www.sony.jp/headphone/products/MUC-M2BT1/index.html
> 
> There aren't any AptX HD transmitters yet but for LDAC one can at least get Sony's latest walkman.


 

 Just ordered one of these for the team. Um, can I be part of the team?


----------



## slackerpo

k4syx said:


> 3. Volume levels.
> 
> Ive checked that and yes they could be better with both IE800 and K7XX. It is high enough for my needs but I'd really expect maximum value to be higher, especially with IE800.


 
  
 im guessing you are not using the balance output


----------



## k4syx

slackerpo said:


> im guessing you are not using the balance output




No, I am not - I should mention this in my post. Thanks


----------



## jonstatt

was55 said:


> Yes, it is absolutely a firmware coding issue for the AK3xx series units.  With their latest firmware update AK has made the AK3xx series units unable to stream Bluetooth to any device that does not have aptX HD capability.  Which means almost every device out there except the XB10.  My solution was to revert to the 1.12 firmware on my AK320 until AK resolves the issue - but this is suboptimum as I lose things like Tidal that came with the 1.20 firmware.   I could update my AK320 firmware to 1.20, buy an XB10, hook the XB10 to the aux input on the Bose speaker and that would work - but at a cost of $189 for what should be in the AK320 firmware.   I have mentioned this issue on the AK320 thread as well.  Hopefully AK USA customer support will pass on the issue to the firmware guys at AK in Korea.
> 
> WAS55


 
  
  
 Hmm....I have tried an AptX Sony headset, the MDR-1000X with the AK380 with 1.40 firmware and it's fine. On the AK380 screen aptX appears. I then try the XB10 and aptX HD appears on the AK380 screen.
  
 I also have no issues with range with the AK380 being on one side of the room and the XB10 on the other, 20 feet away...no break-ups.


----------



## WAS55

jonstatt said:


> Hmm....I have tried an AptX Sony headset, the MDR-1000X with the AK380 with 1.40 firmware and it's fine. On the AK380 screen aptX appears. I then try the XB10 and aptX HD appears on the AK380 screen.
> 
> I also have no issues with range with the AK380 being on one side of the room and the XB10 on the other, 20 feet away...no break-ups.


 

 Interesting - the 1.40 firmware in your AK380 seems to distinguish automatically if it connects to an aptX or aptX HD device - and tells you.   Can you post a photo of what you see on the screen?  The 1.20 firmware that added aptX HD support for the aK320 does not appear to have this functionality. 
  
 I sent AK's USA Support a second email on the issue and they replied as shown below:
  
_Dear Astell & Kern,_
  
_Further to my earlier note I have done further research on the aptX HD codec.  Apparently receiving devices need the Qualcom chipset to receive and decode aptX HD information.  Since the aptX HD chipset only came out in mid 2016 my Bose speaker (and almost every other Bluetooth device out there) does not have the capability to "read" the aptX HD Bluetooth information being sent by the AK320 using the 1.20 firmware.  Since Astell and Kern obviously have the firmware code for both aptX (1.12 firmware) and aptX HD (1.20 firmware) could I suggest that they consider offering a switch in the Bluetooth area of settings to allow switching between aptX and aptX HD to allow the AK320 to stream to older devices? _
  
_Regards,_
  
_Bill S_
 -------------------------------------
  
_Hi Bill,_
  
_Thanks very much for your feedback. We will relay it to our R&D team and hope to have the Bluetooth issues resolved in a future firmware update._
  
_*Regards,*_
  
_*Astell&Kern / iriver US Customer Service Center*_
 -------------------------------------
  
 Jonstatt - Based on your experience it would appear that AK included the aptX and aptX HD functionality suggested in my note to them in the AK380 1.40 firmware ....... but not in the AK320 1.20 firmware.   Hopefully they will fix the issue in the next firmware update for the AK320 as I would like to have Tidal access that came with the 1.20 firmware update.
  
 WAS55


----------



## cj3209

Listening to XB10 via balanced to Angies, source is LG V20 via aptX HD and Spotify at extreme streaming.

I'm impressed, mightily impressed.


----------



## Amacbrown

Just got mine yesterday, Iphone 7+.  I had been using a Mojo for commuting which was lovely but very cumbersome.  Changed that to a Dragonfly Red about a week ago and initially was super impressed, that was until the CCK Audio bug was noticed.  So annoying that there is no solution for this, AudioQuest suggested buying the USB3 cable but that thing is not neat and I would be embarrassed having it on view when traveling around London....I digress .... So far the XB10 is performing really well.  I had also tried the Creative E3 and Sony SBH54 both Bluetooth and they were noticeably worse than the DFR.  The XB10 is not noticeable as worse just yet, its shortcomings will present themselves I suspect but this is nothing compared to the incessant clicks you get from the DFR.  No one has so far mentioned the DCT filter option in the XB10 ?  There is a slight diff with it and perhaps this is aiding the naturalness of the XB10 vs the slightly unnaturalness of the E3 and SBH54.  I have IE800 and what annoyed me a bit was that the clip is orientated upside down, I had hoped to have a very tight solution clipped to the shirt and then to the IE800 directly via a short 2.5mm to 3.5mm.  The only cable I can find that will allow for this is 10cm on Amazon, 5cm would be perfect!.  On another note I had a quick test last night on the IMAC via forced APTX and then XB10 vs DFR (no clicks on IMAC) and Mojo was really quite close.  My choice of music undoubtedly had something to do with that, for me 90% is Apple music and so 256AAC playback quality is what is important and the XB10 does that very well!.  This weekend I will have more time to assess and firm up my view


----------



## cj3209

> No one has so far mentioned the DCT filter option in the XB10 ?


 
  
 What is this DCT filter option in the XB10?  It doesn't google...


----------



## Amacbrown

Radsone DCT (Distinctive Clear Technology™)

You can turn it on and off, it's something that LG also uses. The company is called Radstone


----------



## jonstatt

amacbrown said:


> Radsone DCT (Distinctive Clear Technology™)
> 
> You can turn it on and off, it's something that LG also uses. The company is called Radstone




I think that you overlooked the fact that most people had not read the impossibly small instruction book. This is a Korean originated technology, DCT that AK had already licensed some time ago but to my knowledge not used until now. This mode is enabled by holding down the play button on the XB10 for 5 seconds. The LED will show a green indication.


----------



## k4syx

Yes you're right about reading the manuals - thanks for the tip! 


Also, on a bit different subject but it maybe usefull to XB10 owners.

Recently I've tried XB10 with Windows10 notebook (as W10 is supposed to support AptX) and though the setup was working fine the sound was flat and lifeless. I was suspecting that there is no aptx codec in use and I was right. After some googling I've found that if you have Intel bluetooth card/solution/all-in-one in order to be able to use AptX you HAVE to use Intel provided bluetooth stack - basically you need to install Intel drivers from their site replacing Windows10 defaults.

The change is very real, now foobar2000 on my Revolve sounds exactly like Neutron on my S7Edge. Foot tapping factor: present


----------



## rptlead

cj3209 said:


> Listening to XB10 via balanced to Angies, source is LG V20 via aptX HD and Spotify at extreme streaming.
> 
> I'm impressed, mightily impressed.


 
 i bought the sony 1000x to pair it with my lgv20.. if this combo is that good with tidal, I am doing a 1 day shipping and returning the sony now and will try this with my layla and ether c 1.1. lol


----------



## cj3209

rptlead said:


> i bought the sony 1000x to pair it with my lgv20.. if this combo is that good with tidal, I am doing a 1 day shipping and returning the sony now and will try this with my layla and ether c 1.1. lol


 

 Does the 1000x have aptX HD?  I think it only has LDAC so you're only getting 'regular BT' with the V20  - which doesn't sound great.


----------



## jonstatt

cj3209 said:


> Does the 1000x have aptX HD?  I think it only has LDAC so you're only getting 'regular BT' with the V20  - which doesn't sound great.




It has aptX


----------



## cj3209

jonstatt said:


> It has aptX


 

 Very surprised.  I wish SONY would allow more companies to license their LDAC codec for BT but I forget this is sony.


----------



## Traveller

To start things on-topic I find it very interesting that many of you bought the XB10 to use to connect with your portable DAPs. Sure, I can imagine that being "tied to" a 23g puck is a lot easier than to a +300g AK380Cu 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 My personal quest is to connect any of my Headphones / IEMs to my "PC Tower" which is essentially my multimedia center. When I'm not gaming on that beast, I am watching a DVD/BluRay via 5.1 setup. However, on those occasional late nights when my lady falls asleep next to me and I want to watch something, I go BT. For now, I'm limited to my non-audiophile Phiaton PS210BTNCs; Works, but no where nearly as good as my audiophile gear. Then I thought about going with B&W's P7Ws... until the XB10 and tbh more importantly, AptX HD came on to the scene 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Granted, I'm not sure how necessary 24-bit connectivity is given the goal is DVD/BluRay but now my goal is to see if I can get my hands on an AptX HD capable BT dongle for my PC on one end and the XB10 in the other end. This will allow me to at least enjoy my HP/IEMs, selecting the ones which best fit the situation _(if she starts to snore, I'll have to go with more isolation, etc... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)_
 Ultimately, it will be a question of XB10's flexibility vs. [perhaps] a dedicated BT headphone with a better DAC (or even a pure digital solution).
  
 If anyone here (*cough* @Giogio *cough*) owns both the XB10 and a pair of "TOTL" BT headphones _(P7Ws, Senn Momentums, etc.)_ your comparison would be most insightful, even if it means 16bit AptX vs. 24bit AptX-HD pairings!




  
  
 Quote:


shigzeo said:


> My review is finally of the XB10 is up....


 
 Thanks for a very informative review. It could be coincidence but the timing of A&K's new AK3xx FW (with AptX HD support) is uncanny... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
OT:


shigzeo said:


> AptX HD is useless on AK players. Max 1 metre, with cutouts. 20cm with no signal cut outs, but only if you have no other wireless things around, and you don't move too much flesh around the device.


 
 Based on your review(s) as well as posts in this thread, it's clear that your AK70 has major issues with BT connectivity-quality. I have to say that either you're unlucky, or I'm the lucky one, because I have no trouble with BT connectivity and my AK320. Works as good as any other BT "source". 10M without an major issues, even through standard office walls (the "hollow" ones 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  


gr8soundz said:


> ...Apt-x HD requires a specific chipset (CSR8675) which is why most older apt-x only devices can't be upgraded...


 
@WAS55 mentioned your post in another thread which raised my interest in terms of the AK3xx / AK370's own BT chipset. I assumed that A&K had older chipsets but was surprised when they recently changed their website's specifications for these DAPs from "AptX" to "AptX HD". So I went to their FB site and simply asked if the AK3xxs have the 8675 chipset. They replied with a "yes". Due to the official release from Qualcomm and the release dates of the AK3xx's I found it hard to believe and I will take their confirmation with a grain of salt. The only way to confirm is listen for differences I guess. @jonstatt below showed that the new AK3xx FW "confirms" an AptX HD connection ...when A&K's own device (XB10) is connected. I'd like to see someone connect anything other than the XB10 to an AK3xx and also see it return an "AptX HD" confirmation. _That or if anyone wants to open up their AK3xx to confirm the chipset in use... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_
  
  


jonstatt said:


> was55 said:
> 
> 
> > ...With their latest firmware update AK has made the AK3xx series units unable to stream Bluetooth to any device that does not have aptX HD capability....
> ...


 
 Just to reiterate that along with WAS55 we managed to clarify on the 320 thread that this is not [always] the case as my really old BT 3.x AptX headset connects to my AK320 w/latest FW just fine:
  




  


k4syx said:


> ...Recently I've tried XB10 with Windows10 notebook (as W10 is supposed to support AptX) and though the setup was working fine the sound was flat and lifeless. I was suspecting that there is no aptx codec in use and I was right. After some googling I've found that if you have Intel bluetooth card/solution/all-in-one in order to be able to use AptX you HAVE to use Intel provided bluetooth stack - basically you need to install Intel drivers from their site replacing Windows10 defaults...


 
  
 So your post got me thinking ... _have I been working with AptX on my Android phone and W10 platforms..._





 [read ...CAN OF WORMS 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




]
 First thing I did was to check out my drivers and I have been indeed using Intel's drivers all along. I'm not sure what HW you have or how it is you were not using Intel's drivers... .
 Here are some screens _(although I updated the drivers to the latest 19.x.x after taking the shots, but with the same "results" as the older drivers)_. The 2nd screen is of my headset, as "defined" by W10. There's the A2DP entry - but this says little about the actual codec in use, which could be AptX or SBC... .
  




  




  
 Long-story-short, I simply connected my headset to my Notebook, my Android-based LG G4 and finally my AK320. Result... no [significant] sonic difference noted with all three giving decent* results for 16b44K material. I couldn't test any higher-res media because Foobar (in bit-perfect mode) "complained" when I tried to send anything higher, as expected.
_*Phiaton's PS210BTNC is quite good for its intended purpose but by no means qualifies as audiophile and hence not the best subject for such a test..._


----------



## k4syx

If you're unable to tell the difference then your PC is already using AptX 

I had no separate Intel drivers installed as all of internals of my Elitebook 810 G1 (Revolve) were autodetected by Windows 10 installer and I had no reason to look for any specific driver - everything was working fine.

The fine print was that default Windows 10 bluetooth stack was not using AptX for A2DP connections, the Intel one got it right.

Interesting thing is that windows driver was also identified as provided by Intel - I think it was just bare driver for the device while the one that can be downloaded from their support site installs complete stack.

On android you can check if aptx is in use by using logcat, on windows - I have no idea if it is possible in any way.

My old (now sold) AudioTechnica AT-PHA50BT unit (same type of device as XB10) was displaing an additional AptX splashscreen when connecting to AptX capable device.


----------



## gr8soundz

traveller said:


> gr8soundz said:
> 
> 
> > ...Apt-x HD requires a specific chipset (CSR8675) which is why most older apt-x only devices can't be upgraded...
> ...


 
  
 Afaik, the AK3xx devices are among the only portables that confirm whether apt-x (incl. HD) is active. Last time I tried confirming aptx activity on my phone it involved checking logs from the phone's bluetooth stack.
  
 Hopefully, when aptx HD headphones (not earphones) arrive they will have clear indicators of which bluetooth protocol is in use.
  
 If I go wireless again it may be with Sony LDAC devices. More proprietary than Qualcomm's codec but LDAC has almost twice the bandwidth of aptx hd (990kbps vs 576kbps).


----------



## Traveller

k4syx said:


> ...On android you can check if aptx is in use by using logcat...


 
 Downloading / Installing Logcat was easy; trying to give it root access is not - something about having to install SDK on my Notebook, running ADB, granting read_logs permission... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  


gr8soundz said:


> Afaik, the AK3xx devices are among the only portables that confirm whether apt-x (incl. HD) is active. Last time I tried confirming aptx activity on my phone it involved checking logs from the phone's bluetooth stack...


 
  
 what's this, everyone around here Android experts, Lol. BT-Stack logs... yikes. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






  
 It's all good and well that the AK3xx can "identify" a call from a AptX HD device, but this alone in no way guarantees that the AK3xx will actually operate in AptX HD mode... . As you (and many others on the Internet) pointed out, the CSR8675 is a requirement for AptX-HD support...


----------



## jonstatt

traveller said:


> It's all good and well that the AK3xx can "identify" a call from a AptX HD device, but this alone in no way guarantees that the AK3xx will actually operate in AptX HD mode... . As you (and many others on the Internet) pointed out, the CSR8675 is a requirement for AptX-HD support...


 
  
 Are you suggesting the AK380 displays AptX HD and then actually goes ahead and just uses AptX? Surely that would be illegal? OTOH Korean companies have done this kind of thing before.
  
 I agree that it seems very unlikely the CSR8675 can be in the AK380 unless they had early access to the chips which DOES happen in the industry. The only other possibility is that they used an FPGA in association with the Bluetooth chip that allowed them to still upgrade to AptX HD.


----------



## Traveller

jonstatt said:


> traveller said:
> 
> 
> > It's all good and well that the AK3xx can "identify" a call from a AptX HD device, but this alone in no way guarantees that the AK3xx will actually operate in AptX HD mode... . As you (and many others on the Internet) pointed out, the CSR8675 is a requirement for AptX-HD support...
> ...


 
  
 I'm only suggesting that _the timeline is against us_ but I do trust A&K _(as well as iRiver - manufacture of my first serious DAP - the iHP-120*)_. Enough that I recently parted with a lot of € for their AK320 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 The XB10 is an awesome product in that we can now use our favorite transducers with a source transport that is as much as 10M away... .!
  
 Having acknowledged that, I also sincerely hope that one day I can buy a pair of TOTL BT headphones which will work with my AK320 to provide 24bit precision and do so _completely wireless!_ This additional feature would add even more value to an already impressive DAP, not to mention provide the AK70/3xx owner with the satisfaction that their DAP won't feel "dated" so quickly...   
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 Fingers crossed 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
_*Would you believe... my 2001 iHP-120 is still in use. While people were shelling out for the non-MP3-friendly iPod 1G, I had a DAP that could not only play MP3s, but could record them as well... via coax or TOS-Link. It also made it easy to output my digital collection (via coax) to my home system... in fact, when my CD Player was getting fixed a few months back, it came in very handy  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_


----------



## gr8soundz

traveller said:


> I also sincerely hope that one day I can buy a pair of TOTL BT headphones which will work with my AK320 to provide 24bit precision and do so _completely wireless!_ This additional feature would add even more value to an already impressive DAP, not to mention provide the AK70/3xx owner with the satisfaction that their DAP won't feel "dated" so quickly...


 
  
 Like these:
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/821419/hd-bluetooth-tesla-headphones-from-ak-beyerdynamic-24-bit-aptx-hd-2016-ifa


----------



## ginster6

I got mine XB10 about 3 week ago.   and just came back from an international flight.  SFO to HND.   
 connection is iPhone 7Plus to XB10 to AK Angie2.
  
 I have to say it was great compare to the previous trip SFO to HKG.  Using   IP6+ to PHA3 to Z5/Z7  - (felt like 5 pound of gear, all the cables.)  sound great, but no fun.
  
 Battery life : use about 5-6 hour.  slept for the rest of flight time.  in first class.  had to use the lay flat seat..  
                   used for about another 45-60min trip from HND to hotel  and still had some little juiced left.
  
 Use wise :    This is where its a real winner to me.
                 -  Light weight.   
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



                 - I can leave my phone in pocket. or in this case the plane storage pocket and kept IP7 charged.
                 - volume and track control.
                 -no cable all over the place
  
 sound wise.:   The angie2 was still in the break-in phase.  but it had enough volume to blast my ear drum out.  and still learning the angie2.     Though I am running it though my ip7, no aptX HD.  only itunes downloads.  (sold my AK380 Copper) it sounded good, not great.  using PHA3 was better sound..   but for the dollar and propose.  I dont think you can go wrong for travel uses.
  
  
 Once I have more time with it...   I will chime in again.


----------



## Traveller

ginster6 said:


> I got mine XB10 about 3 week ago. ...(sold my AK380 Copper)...


 
 Thanks for the feedback 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 As I also have the Angies I am curious about your opinion once you've had a little more time with them. However, I hope you have access to other DACs / DAPs for testing as I don't have an iP7 and guess that just like my LG G4, it's a very nice "DAP" but there are better options for the Angies out there.
  
 Seeing as you sold your 380 maybe you have some remaining "fun-budget" for a Mojo*... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






  
_*Just be aware you need a CCK cable I believe to use with an iPhone... I have Android and use an OTG cable for it._


----------



## ginster6

traveller said:


> Thanks for the feedback
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 all my "fun-budget" went to 2017 CA. banned fun stuff.


----------



## Traveller

Just arrived


----------



## Amacbrown

On sale £119 from http://homeavdirect.co.uk/astell-kern-ak-xb10-extreme-bluetooth-aptx-hd-dac-headphone-amp  just nabbed one


----------



## Traveller

> Originally Posted by *Traveller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> 
> shigzeo said:
> ...


 
  
@shigzeo it looks like I was wrong regarding the AK3xx and its BT capabilities. As noted above, I can use it up to 10M away, but it really needs a relative line of sight with no "real" obstruction in the path. Since obtaining the XB10, I did some extensive testing and came to the realization that even the slightest obstacles (like my upper torso) will cause havoc with the signal - even if the 320 is 1M behind me...  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Back on topic, I'm pleased to report the XB10 is certainly not the the cause (or any part thereof), working perfectly with my LG G4 smartphone (A2DP + AptX). No drop-outs, etc. even with obstacles in the path. I have the opportunity to compare the BT quality connectivity-wise with my aging Phiaton PS 210BTNC; while it is oldskool BT3.0, it works with the same BT-profiles as the XB10 (A2DP, HSP, ...). Functionality is 1-1 with the exception of multi-pairing, DCT and of course, AptX HD.
  
 My modest concerns right now start with the fn2key assignment. I will use the fwd / back function more often than say, the "BT" key, yet I have to struggle to find those keys. I could also do without the beeping when changing volume. Although the XB10's battery has slightly more capacity than the PS 210, it only manages half the operating time and I can't figure out why that might be... .
  
 Just like @jonstatt, I verified that the AK320 displays the AptX HD logo when connected with the XB10. Unfortunately I don't have the same feedback from say, my Windows 10 devices or even my Android device. The audio quality pretty much guarantees AptX is in use, but actual confirmation would be comforting.  CSR's Harmony BT stack is all but obsolete and its the only (Windows) BT stack AFAIK which returns the "using AptX" logo message. One option that might have solved this dilemma is "voice feedback" - something the PS 210 has. For example when I press the pairing key on the PS 210 , I hear "Pairing Mode On", pwr on, "Power On", once connection's established, "Device Connected" and so on. A&K could have used this functionality to indicate the codec in use, like "Device connected using AptX".  Splitting hairs maybe, but I call it my wish-list for the XB20... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Audio quality is a whole other topic to be tackled once I have spent more time with the XB10


----------



## raypin

Mm..bought an XB10 yesterday. Not bad. SQ is barely acceptable and still some ways off before it can be good enough to replace or compare favorably with wired listening. Tried it on my iPhone 7 Plus, AKt8ie and Onkyo DPX1, balanced on the XB10. Had some problems with audio cut-off, which can be irritating....and surprising considering that cheap wireless earphones do not have this problem. AK needs to make the wireless connection more robust or reliable.


----------



## jonstatt

raypin said:


> Mm..bought an XB10 yesterday. Not bad. SQ is barely acceptable and still some ways off before it can be good enough to replace or compare favorably with wired listening. Tried it on my iPhone 7 Plus, AKt8ie and Onkyo DPX1, balanced on the XB10. Had some problems with audio cut-off, which can be irritating....and surprising considering that cheap wireless earphones do not have this problem. AK needs to make the wireless connection more robust or reliable.


 

 It's worth pointing out though that neither of those devices supports APT-X HD. The iPhone in particular only supporting AAC which while better than SBC is still some way off what APT-X is supposedly capable of. I haven't had any issues with audio cut-off at all.


----------



## raypin

Mm..what playback devices are you using? Because on my AK 240, I have not had a single track played back that wasn't cut-off by the XB 10. This is totally unexpected since I have a high regard for AK products. This feels like a beta version, not a finished product that meets my expectations from an AK product. There is no physical obstruction so I am stumped by the cause of this problem. Right now, the 240 is just inches away from the XB10.

Edit: bad bad connection with the ak240. Much better on my AK380 cu. Just one audio cut-off problem after playing a dozen HD tracks.. SQ is still just acceptable. It is just ok.


----------



## jonstatt

raypin said:


> Mm..what playback devices are you using? Because on my AK 240, I have not had a single track played back that wasn't cut-off by the XB 10. This is totally unexpected since I have a high regard for AK products. This feels like a beta version, not a finished product that meets my expectations from an AK product. There is no physical obstruction so I am stumped by the cause of this problem. Right now, the 240 is just inches away from the XB10.
> 
> Edit: bad bad connection with the ak240. Much better on my AK380 cu. Just one audio cut-off problem after playing a dozen HD tracks.. SQ is still just acceptable. It is just ok.





Yep, others have reported issues with the ak240. I guess it has a weak Bluetooth radio. As you found , that the AK380 is much better. I would never say we have reached a replacement for corded connections, I thought that this is the best Bluetooth quality I have heard to date. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Traveller

raypin said:


> Edit: bad bad connection with the ak240. Much better on my AK380 cu. Just one audio cut-off problem after playing a dozen HD tracks.. SQ is still just acceptable. It is just ok.


 


jonstatt said:


> Yep, others have reported issues with the ak240. I guess it has a weak Bluetooth radio. As you found , that the AK380 is much better. I would never say we have reached a replacement for corded connections, I thought that this is the best Bluetooth quality I have heard to date.


 
 the XB10 has very decent BT performance _(operating distance, drop-outs etc)_ and compared to my Phiatons, pretty much identical [BT] performance. The AK320, on the other hand, has terrible BT performance and the odds that the 380 has a different BT configuration _(chip-set, code)_ is pretty much nil.
  
 As for AptX HD... I'm still not sure how useful it is. Currently the 320 is the only source I own that presumably can take advantage of the codec_ (and I'm personally still not 100% convinced that is honestly the case)_. I also find it rather annoying that my Windows10-based Notebook installed the XB10 with a fixed value of 16b44K.1Hz. To the best of my knowledge, A&K doesn't offer Windows drivers either...


----------



## raypin

Mm..they should not have released this to market until the XB10 works flawlessly with ALL AK players. It is embarrassing. I had planned on using the XB10 with my AK 240 for days when I need a fuss-free, portable and wireless listening. Not happy.


----------



## Traveller

raypin said:


> Mm..they should not have released this to market until the XB10 works flawlessly with ALL AK players...


 
 As far as I read on the diverse AKxxx* threads as well as on this one, the DAPs have the BT issue, not the XB10. If the source signal is weak, there's not much the XB10 can do about it...
 When I use the XB10 with [any of] my Windows workstations as well as my Android-based LG G4, the XB10 functions just as good as any other BT headset I've used.
  
_*Let's be honest here; who would expect A&K to be overly-concerned about BT performance when designing their €1~3.5K [dual-] DAC equipped DAPs? It should be considered a crime to bypass that much € in DACs via BT, LOL 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_
_They obviously pulled out the XB10 out of their [magic] hat in anticipation of future iPhone 7 owners... . My advice? Don't buy an iPhone 7 _


----------



## jonstatt

traveller said:


> As far as I read on the diverse AKxxx* threads as well as on this one, the DAPs have the BT issue, not the XB10. If the source signal is weak, there's not much the XB10 can do about it...
> When I use the XB10 with [any of] my Windows workstations as well as my Android-based LG G4, the XB10 functions just as good as any other BT headset I've used.
> 
> _*Let's be honest here; who would expect A&K to be overly-concerned about BT performance when designing their €1~3.5K [dual-] DAC equipped DAPs? It should be considered a crime to bypass that much € in DACs via BT, LOL
> ...


 
  
 Yes, this is my understanding too. It's the DAPs with the issue, the AK380 being the best performing one. A&K primarily added bluetooth probably to support things like their remote control.
  
 There is a whole separate question about whether the AK DAPS are "really" outputting APT-X HD, considering that the Qualcomm chip that supports this came out over 6 months after the release of the AK380 and of course a whole lot longer with the AK240. The screen shows APT-X HD on the DAP when connecting with the XB10 but conspiracy theorists believe that is all it does by identifying the stream header, and then just transmits with APT-X (no HD) anyway  
  
 I did try and put the conspiracy to bed by contacting Qualcomm directly to ask if there were other ways of implementing APT-X HD without the newest BT radio chip (e.g. in an FPGA), and whether they planned to certify the AK DAPs........no response, unfortunately.


----------



## cj3209

raypin said:


> Mm..they should not have released this to market until the XB10 works flawlessly with ALL AK players. It is embarrassing. I had planned on using the XB10 with my AK 240 for days when I need a fuss-free, portable and wireless listening. Not happy.


 

 I don't think AK meant the XB10 to be used with the AK DAPs.  It works flawlessly with my LG V20 via aptX HD.  The sound is noticeably better than just aptX and I literally have to walk over 30 ft. away to get sound interruptions.  If I listen critically (ie., in a very quiet room), the sound is not as good as my wired connections but when mobile and not listening critically (ie., moving about), the sound is compared favorably with my wired AK120ii connection.  
  
 I think if they put the same DAC as in their portable players into the XB10, there would be no reason to get their DAPs.


----------



## shigzeo

raypin said:


> Mm..bought an XB10 yesterday. Not bad. SQ is barely acceptable and still some ways off before it can be good enough to replace or compare favorably with wired listening. Tried it on my iPhone 7 Plus, AKt8ie and Onkyo DPX1, balanced on the XB10. Had some problems with audio cut-off, which can be irritating....and surprising considering that cheap wireless earphones do not have this problem. AK needs to make the wireless connection more robust or reliable.


 

 The Sony MUC-M2BT1 is far, far better sounding than the XB1 and has longer battery life. But it isn't comfy to wear, and only works with mmcx.


----------



## raypin

Mm...even with non-Sony LDAC player? I have the ZX2 with LDAC. But used with, say, the DPX1 or others, is it just as good? Have the akt8ie and shure se846 mmcx terminated, so I'm curious to try. Also, have you tried the Noble BTS? The Lear is out of the question because of very short battery life.


----------



## shigzeo

I have tried all the BT units you have listed. In fact, I own each. I am probably going to do a 4-way shootout soon enough at ohm-image. But I often put up plans that later I shoot down. I hope I get it done. The Sony is the most unwieldy, but the best sounding. It is the only one that doesn't hiss like a snake.


----------



## Traveller

cj3209 said:


> ...It works flawlessly with my LG V20 via aptX HD.  *The sound is noticeably better than just aptX* and I literally have to walk over 30 ft. away to get sound interruptions....


 
 Hmm, _grain-of-salt mode on_ until I have an actual guaranteed* AptX HD source like you... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
_*As in listed by Qualcomm / CSR - which the AK players are not (they are listed under AptX only)._


----------



## Audiowood

order the AK XB10 for iphone 7..
  
 Quick question: isn't the data bandwidth of bluetooth 4 enough for lossless music files, why would an APTX be better than bluetooth 4 since the bandwidth is already enough? Also is there anyway to not send compress data since the bandwidth is already big enough for lossless?


----------



## Traveller

audiowood said:


> order the AK XB10 for iphone 7..
> 
> Quick question: isn't the data bandwidth of bluetooth 4 enough for lossless music files, why would an APTX be better than bluetooth 4 since the bandwidth is already enough? Also is there anyway to not send compress data since the bandwidth is already big enough for lossless?


 

 The data rate of BT 3.0 is 24 Mbps which is pretty impressive (BT 4.0 adds other functionality, but no additional bandwidth).
 AptX works with rates of 384Kbps, AptX HD at 576Kbps.
  
 AptX is an Audio Codec that uses BT 3.0, 4.x... a communication network interface to transmit audio data between two "paired" devices. To make things more complicated, you still need a BT "profile" such as A2DP to make it all work together.


----------



## Audiowood

traveller said:


> The data rate of BT 3.0 is 24 Mbps which is pretty impressive (BT 4.0 adds other functionality, but no additional bandwidth).
> AptX works with rates of 384Kbps, AptX HD at 576Kbps.
> 
> AptX is an Audio Codec that uses BT 3.0, 4.x... a communication network interface to transmit audio data between two "paired" devices. To make things more complicated, you still need a BT "profile" such as A2DP to make it all work together.


 
 Oh I see... thanks for the info, didn't know aptx is a codec, so does it means it convert AAC to APTX before transmitting?


----------



## Audiowood

I have the Nuforece BTR-100 for couple of years.. and at the back, there is an APTX and AAC logo sticker.. does this means that if the bluetooth device that does not have AAC logo, it cannot transmit AAC codec?


----------



## Audiowood

I also have the sony SBH50 for many years.. I just powered it today with my iphone 7 connected to SBH50 to KSE1500.. I then compare it to Audioquest Dragon fly red direct wire and notice there is not much differences between the 2 upon first few testing.. they were tonally identical except the direct wire is louder.. also a litttle more dynamic and sharper


----------



## faw88

Does this have Line-Out by any chance? Can we use it as a wireless streaming module/transport for the mojo?


----------



## Traveller

faw88 said:


> Does this have Line-Out by any chance? Can we use it as a wireless streaming module/transport for the mojo?


 

 No.


----------



## faw88

traveller said:


> No.


 
  
 Missed opportunity by A&K IMO, They could've made this the ultimate wireless transport by just adding a line-out. I would've preferred it over the much more expensive Poly streaming module, no questions asked.


----------



## cj3209

faw88 said:


> Missed opportunity by A&K IMO, They could've made this the ultimate wireless transport by just adding a line-out. I would've preferred it over the much more expensive Poly streaming module, no questions asked.


 

 Maybe, but that probably would have added another $100 to the cost (at least) - no thank you.  A better DAC would've been nice...IMHO...


----------



## Traveller

traveller said:


> jonstatt said:
> 
> 
> > traveller said:
> ...


 
  


jonstatt said:


> ...There is a whole separate question about whether the AK DAPS are "really" outputting APT-X HD, considering that the Qualcomm chip that supports this came out over 6 months after the release of the AK380 and of course a whole lot longer with the AK240. The screen shows APT-X HD on the DAP when connecting with the XB10 but conspiracy theorists believe that is all it does by identifying the stream header, and then just transmits with APT-X (no HD) anyway
> I did try and put the conspiracy to bed by contacting Qualcomm directly to ask if there were other ways of implementing APT-X HD without the newest BT radio chip (e.g. in an FPGA), and whether they planned to certify the AK DAPs........no response, unfortunately.


 
  


traveller said:


> ...As for the question of the 320's ability to use the AptX-HD codec, I have no way of verifying it. I would need an AptX-only headphone dongle so that I could plug in the same headphone / IEM into both BT-dongles. This would provide the means to properly compare 16-bit AptX against 24-bit AptX HD.


 
 While I still am without the ability to A/B, I was pleased to see Qualcomm add the AK3xx/AK70 to their AptX HD list!!!


----------



## jonstatt

traveller said:


> While I still am without the ability to A/B, I was pleased to see Qualcomm add the AK3xx/AK70 to their AptX HD list!!!


 
  
 So they have! Good you noticed that  I guess that puts the conspiracy theory to bed as I highly doubt that Qualcomm would simply add the models to their list without checking first!


----------



## adonissk

Is there such a thing as a bluetooth transport only?  I would really love to be able to untether the mojo from the phone. I.e. running a usb cable from the XB10 to the mojo and let the mojo do the decoding!


----------



## faw88

adonissk said:


> Is there such a thing as a bluetooth transport only?  I would really love to be able to untether the mojo from the phone. I.e. running a usb cable from the XB10 to the mojo and let the mojo do the decoding!


 

 I was also looking for such a thing. ended up getting the Shanling M1. It does pretty much all you want plus more. a lot of mojo owners are getting M1's as it fits really well.


----------



## k4syx

adonissk said:


> Is there such a thing as a bluetooth transport only?  I would really love to be able to untether the mojo from the phone. I.e. running a usb cable from the XB10 to the mojo and let the mojo do the decoding!




Bluetooth doesn't have enough bandwidth to do somethinglike that - that's why we need to use codecs that are able to compress data on the fly.
Unfortunately unless you're using AptX lossless capable devices that compression will be lossy.

I saw adverts of mojo add-on that makes it wireless. It's called mojo poly and I (as a proud mojo owner myself) was thinking about buying it - until I saw the price. It's almost same as for mojo alone (!)

So I'll stay a happy mobile XB10 user and happy desktop Mojo user.


----------



## adonissk

k4syx said:


> Bluetooth doesn't have enough bandwidth to do somethinglike that - that's why we need to use codecs that are able to compress data on the fly.
> Unfortunately unless you're using AptX lossless capable devices that compression will be lossy.
> 
> I saw adverts of mojo add-on that makes it wireless. It's called mojo poly and I (as a proud mojo owner myself) was thinking about buying it - until I saw the price. It's almost same as for mojo alone (!)
> ...


 
 I wasn't looking to transport uncompressed. For instance let's say I have an iphone and my bluetooth receiver supports aac. I can transfer the AAC untouched over bluetooth and the decode it using my own dac. Not the bluetooth receiver's dac. The poly is nice but it's so expensive and it only works with the mojo...


----------



## adonissk

faw88 said:


> I was also looking for such a thing. ended up getting the Shanling M1. It does pretty much all you want plus more. a lot of mojo owners are getting M1's as it fits really well.


 
  
 Thanks, I saw the Shanling before. I suppose I was hoping for something much smaller, without a screen and all those other features. Oh well, one can't have everything. Does Shanling support AAC?


----------



## faw88

adonissk said:


> Thanks, I saw the Shanling before. I suppose I was hoping for something much smaller, without a screen and all those other features. Oh well, one can't have everything. Does Shanling support AAC?


 

 Yes it does, and also DSD. The way I look at it, I can have all my HQ DSD FLAC music in the M1 on the memory card, and I can stream Spotify/tidal over bluetooth via aptx with minimum loss, It doesn't have aptx HD but I'm ok with aptx as well. Even aptx HD can't stream loss FLAC or DSD. so I don't see the utility, as aptx is fine for 320kbps Spotify streaming without any degradation. 
 I think the best option for you is the Poly, but the price/functionality ratio was just too steep for me hence I settled for an M1. Although I was really hoping the XB10 had line out or USB-out, but I'm afraid it doesn't. maybe AK can give these features in the next iteration, It'd be perfect. 
 That Being said, The XB-10 is a very very good device on its own to use with IEM's etc. just not a good transport.


----------



## k4syx

adonissk said:


> I wasn't looking to transport uncompressed. For instance let's say I have an iphone and my bluetooth receiver supports aac. I can transfer the AAC untouched over bluetooth and the decode it using my own dac. Not the bluetooth receiver's dac. The poly is nice but it's so expensive and it only works with the mojo...




Still, too narrow bandwidth. Unless you'd like to transfer file in advance, than play it and maybe transfer another one while the first one is still playing.
That would be an interesting idea, though I'm still not sure if it is possible to push typical size (~5mins) FLAC file less than 5 minutes.
Interesting idea though.


----------



## adonissk

k4syx said:


> Still, too narrow bandwidth. Unless you'd like to transfer file in advance, than play it and maybe transfer another one while the first one is still playing.
> That would be an interesting idea, though I'm still not sure if it is possible to push typical size (~5mins) FLAC file less than 5 minutes.
> Interesting idea though.


 
  
 Maybe I wasn't clear enough, I am not talking about lossless here, I am merely looking to transfer a compressed AAC stream. But the original one, that comes from apple music. If the receiver supports AAC over bluetooth, it should just receive that apple music stream without any processing from the phone (which I assume the XB10 does).
  
 Now, instead of decoding this stream on the XB10 DAC, I want to get it over USB from the SB10 and decode it on the Mojo.


----------



## faw88

adonissk said:


> Maybe I wasn't clear enough, I am not talking about lossless here, I am merely looking to transfer a compressed AAC stream. But the original one, that comes from apple music. If the receiver supports AAC over bluetooth, it should just receive that apple music stream without any processing from the phone (which I assume the XB10 does).
> 
> Now, instead of decoding this stream on the XB10 DAC, I want to get it over USB from the SB10 and decode it on the Mojo.


 

 Shanling m1 supports AAC format. it supports bluetooth receiving function. since all of mojo's inputs are digital, the only way to give mojo a signal is via unprocessed digital input. so when you connect the m1 to mojo via USB-C to micro-USB cable, It merely acts like a bluetooth receiver and transfers the digital unprocessed signal to mojo. the hidisz ap60 does the same
 I don't know if the XB-10 has a USB out function?


----------



## adonissk

faw88 said:


> Shanling m1 supports AAC format. it supports bluetooth receiving function. since all of mojo's inputs are digital, the only way to give mojo a signal is via unprocessed digital input. so when you connect the m1 to mojo via USB-C to micro-USB cable, It merely acts like a bluetooth receiver and transfers the digital unprocessed signal to mojo. the hidisz ap60 does the same
> I don't know if the XB-10 has a USB out function?


 
 No it doesn't unfortunately. If it did it would solve my problem!
 I guess I will give the Shanling a try then.


----------



## gr8soundz

adonissk said:


> Maybe I wasn't clear enough, I am not talking about lossless here, I am merely looking to transfer a compressed AAC stream. But the original one, that comes from apple music. If the receiver supports AAC over bluetooth, it should just receive that apple music stream without any processing from the phone (which I assume the XB10 does).
> 
> Now, instead of decoding this stream on the XB10 DAC, I want to get it over USB from the SB10 and decode it on the Mojo.


 
  
 Unfortunately, the XB10 only charges over usb. No usb audio or dac support (one of 1st questions I asked about it). Imo, it's best features are aptx-hd and the balanced output.
  
 The best bluetooth codec might be Sony's LDAC which has 2-3x higher data rate (990k) than even apt-x/hd. However, the only non-Sony device that supports it so far is the Mytek Clef.
  
 The Poly, despite the price, does sound like the best/simplest option for what you're describing. Not sure it'll support AAC; Chord's last bluetooth device (the Hugo) only specified a2dp and aptx.


----------



## adonissk

gr8soundz said:


> Unfortunately, the XB10 only charges over usb. No usb audio or dac support (one of 1st questions I asked about it). Imo, it's best features are aptx-hd and the balanced output.
> 
> The best bluetooth codec might be Sony's LDAC which has 2-3x higher data rate (990k) than even apt-x/hd. However, the only non-Sony device that supports it so far is the Mytek Clef.
> 
> The Poly, despite the price, does sound like the best/simplest option for what you're describing. Not sure it'll support AAC; Chord's last bluetooth device (the Hugo) only specified a2dp and aptx.


 

 I suppose with the Poly I won't need AAC, I'll be streaming Tidal lossless over wifi. But then again AAC would be nice as a lower power alternative for the phone. I'm pretty sure constant wifi streaming will kill the iPhone pretty fast.


----------



## The Walrus

Correct me if I'm wrong: I connect my WIRED headphones to this thing. ...and I need my source, like my A&K DAP or whatever, to be within my reach, because I will control what I'm listening to obviously.
 So why the hell do I need my headphone AMP/DAC to be wireless, bluetooth or otherwise?


----------



## Traveller

the walrus said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong: I connect my WIRED headphones to this thing. ...and I need my source, like my A&K DAP or whatever, to be within my reach, because I will control what I'm listening to obviously. So why the hell do I need my headphone AMP/DAC to be wireless, bluetooth or otherwise?


 
 1. Once I decide which playlist / genre I'm in the mood for and I load it, the only functions I need at the tip of my fingers is Fwd Rev Vol +/- and pause. All those functions are available on pretty much any BT device.
 2. The dongle is small and weighs ~50g vs. the typical DAP which is (relatively) big and closer to 250g+. You can stuff your DAP in your messenger bag and have the dongle in a pocket. Assuming your DAP is NOT an A&K (...) you can have your DAP in you backpack too...
 3. At the office, I can connect the XB10 to both my DAP and my workstation. Listening to music, a (conference) call comes in so I pause the DAP and ~3secs later I start the call.
 4. And so on


----------



## Iron-Buddha

the walrus said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong: I connect my WIRED headphones to this thing. ...and I need my source, like my A&K DAP or whatever, to be within my reach, because I will control what I'm listening to obviously.
> So why the hell do I need my headphone AMP/DAC to be wireless, bluetooth or otherwise?


 

 Are you asking what a bluetooth dongle (XB10 or Noble BTS or similar) is used for?   For me, I tend to use everything but my DAP with the XB10.   I use a 2.5 balanced connector for my IEM's, which don't plug directly into anything other than my AK320.   So I used to either (i) carry a separate 3.5/BT headphone, or (ii) swap cables whenever I switch devices.   Now, the XB10 acts as a bridge for my laptop, iPad, iPhone 7, etc. 
  
 While I swapped the BTS for the XB10 for the 2.5mm connector, aside from that, there is the benefit of getting your IEM's and BT dongle all cabled up neatly under your clothing and being free to move around and switch sources.   It's especially useful on a plane and at my office, where I use a standing desk and move around a lot.   
  
 On another note, not many high quality IEM's have a bluetooth option.   While there is are BT MMCX cables, if you want to use a cabled connection, you are back to connecting and disconnecting cables.   I find my Vega + XB10 still easier to work with than my BEOPLAY H8.  They sound better too.  
  
 For critical music listening, I still go direct to the AK320.


----------



## Traveller

iron-buddha said:


> ...I use a 2.5 balanced connector for my IEM's, which don't plug directly into anything other than my AK320.   So I used to either (i) carry a separate 3.5/BT headphone, or (ii) swap cables whenever I switch devices.   Now, the XB10 acts as a bridge for my laptop, iPad, iPhone 7, etc.


 
 ...lol, I read this post soon after having swapped out my Angie's balanced cable for SE because I wanted to use my Mojo...


----------



## agrosash

Alright, took the plunge. XB10 set to arrive tonight via Amazon.de Same-Day. I'm currently running my Ultimate Ears 18 Pro with the AT-PHA50BT, an iPhone 6s and a 2014 MacBook with Apt-X enabled — curious to see how I like the XB10 compared with the AT. I also still have the Noble BTS but that might get passed down soon


----------



## k4syx

agrosash said:


> curious to see how I like the XB10 compared with the AT




Well please do share your thoughts after comparing them, I am very curious if they will be similar to my comparision


----------



## agrosash

k4syx said:


> Well please do share your thoughts after comparing them, I am very curious if they will be similar to my comparision


 

 I will definitely do that


----------



## cj3209

The XB-10 outputs very very good sound via apt-X HD on my LG V20.  Being able to move around without being wire-connected to a DAP in my pocket is pretty revolutionary.  Maybe it's my phone but I have very good reception and the sound quality is almost on par with my old AK120ii (I use the balanced connector on the XB-10) and my Angies.  Since I don't do critical listening when I'm mobile, I don't think it gets that much better than this...
  
 my two cents...
  
 CJ


----------



## agrosash

*Edited with comparison between the AT-PHA50BT and AK XB10, see Edit 2.*
  
 Alright, got some time yesterday evening and this morning to do more listening. I must say, I'm mightily impressed by the sound quality and solidity of this thing. I haven't had the time to legitimately compare it to the AT-PHA50BT yet, but there's an immediately apparent foot-tapping effect that wasn't there in the recent weeks with the AT-PHA50BT, I'm sorry to say. A couple of things I've noticed:
  
 - With Apple Music files, AAC feels just a little better than even AptX (via MacBook Pro). I notice more oomph, better attack and slightly crispier highs with the AAC codec over even AptX — I suppose the transcoding to AptX takes away a bit of the SQ vs. direct transport via AAC. I had a suspicion this was the case when I've noticed the sound on my iPhone (AAC) compared to the Mac (AptX) yesterday evening. This was even more evident this morning once I've enabled AAC on my Mac (had an outdated version of Bluetooth Explorer without an "Enable AAC" setting, 4.3 – needed to update to 4.4 or 5.0 respectively). Extremely enjoyable music for my taste. Disclaimer: I'm saying "AAC feels" better, because I know these things can get _very subjective, could all be placebo — i don't really care._
  
 - Pairing with the MBP and an iPhone 6s Plus and switching between the two works effortlessly: pause playback on one device, start on the other. As I'm taking phone calls on my Mac when in the office, which pause or duck the iTunes sound, it's even more convenient. Mind you I'm using the internal mic of the MacBook as my input, not the XB10.
  
 - The haptic of the device and interfacing with it feels good, the sounds for powering on and off are at least not rubbish sounding beep tones 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. The buttons at the top feel a bit too clicky, nothing that annoys me, though. The puck form factor is a bit more handy and less techy looking than the AT-50PHABT, IMHO.
  
 - In my ~100 sqm flat, my office is pretty much in the middle, with the XB10 I can move around in the whole flat, only with some brief cutouts in the corners of the edge rooms. With the AT-PHA50BT the reception was a little worse — it was dropping after moving away 6-7 meters from the MacBook Pro.
  
  
*​Now you tell me*: do I need a balanced 2.5mm cable for my UE 18 Pro cIEMs? What can I expect SQ wise and where do I get one in Germany without paying Ultimate Ears 70 USD of shipping the cable they offer?
  
*Edit*: So i've inquired with UE and they promptly offered to send me a balanced cable, to Germany, for free, even not charging the shipping — as a gift. Really goes to show they care about keeping good customer relations. Super nice..!
  
*Edit 2*: Saturday morning: comparing the AT-PHA50BT vs. the AK XB10, slightly more clarity in the XB10 and a bit more headroom. Soundstage feels a tad wider on the XB10 with the SE output. Basses are similar in oomph, but the XB10 seems to be more precise in the low end. Also, with the UE18 Pro on SE output, there's certainly less hiss. With the better reception, better overall sound, ability to charge while using (!) and nicer form factor, I'm certainly keeping and will be using the XB10 from now on. I'm looking forward to hearing the balanced UE cable with this thing.


----------



## Traveller

I won't lie, it looks better in these pics than in real life...
_(...'cause it's basically a flat-matte plastic puck... )_
  





 
  





 
  





 
  





 
  





 
  
_and now to put it to proper use with true, 24b96k recorded material... _


----------



## Iron-Buddha

...but but....shadows...light....time.....geometry?!
  
 I agree.  It would have been nice for it to be made with some more heft.  It feels very plasticky.  I assume they were trying to keep the weight down.   At any rate, I think it's better built than the Noble BTS, which had one of those rubber flap things that never sat perfectly flush.


----------



## gavinfabl

I have had my XB10 for a few weeks now. It sounds quite good with both my Huawei Mate 9 and iPhone 7 Plus. Rather crazily, I got a LG G5 today which has the APT-X HD and am now using the XB10 with this streaming FLAC music. I really enjoying listening to it with my Oppo PM-3 and Sennheiser HD 598 SE & 598 cs headphones. 

Really impressed so far.


----------



## Ojisan

Any opinion or thoughts about XB10 compared to Westone BT cable for MMCX IEMs (I use SE846 or HA-FX1100)? I am most interested for use in long flights (and in between airport/transits) as well as for jog/hike. Is it light enough to clip to shirt collar or neck?


----------



## loephi

Hejj there i have a question about the xb10
  
 I am cosnidering a "bluetooth-Dac" to use my iphone 7.
  
 The reviewer 2 posts ago mentioned aac over iphone sounded great. I am a bit confused with the meaning of aac. Does this mean the actual music file has to be aac to sound this good? or does The iphone always send a aac file through bluetooth? 
  
 I am questioning, because i am mainly using spotify on the 320kbps setting on the go. Will this sound less good than for instance aac files played by apple music on the iphone directly?
  
 regards Phil


----------



## adonissk

loephi said:


> Hejj there i have a question about the xb10
> 
> I am cosnidering a "bluetooth-Dac" to use my iphone 7.
> 
> ...


 
 You will need to switch to apple music if you want the aac stream untouched and decoded by the xb10, though it is not confirmed that it's untouched. But still you will get aac traveling over the air, which is a superior codec to the alternative (sbc).  Spotify is mp3 so will be re-encoded using sbc, which is also an inferior audio codec to mp3.


----------



## loephi

hi adonissk
  
 I think i got it now. So basically my iPhone 7 with Spotify will be the worst possible combination für the xb10. Man im starting to hate the iPhone..... It seems like you are just screwed, if you want to Play hi res music with with this phone... theyre telling us to go wireless.... then build in apt x HD into it.


----------



## adonissk

loephi said:


> hi adonissk
> 
> I think i got it now. So basically my iPhone 7 with Spotify will be the worst possible combination für the xb10. Man im starting to hate the iPhone..... It seems like you are just screwed, if you want to Play hi res music with with this phone... theyre telling us to go wireless.... then build in apt x HD into it.


 
 I have not found any quality differences between aptX HD and AAC on the XB10. They sound different, if you are paying attention, but one doesn't necessarily sound better than the other. 
 I am happy with apple music AAC on the XB10 when on the go. For me AAC + XB10 + balanced Vega sounds great and is very portable. For an audible step up you will need to add significant bulk to your stack. 
 Now if you're doing critical listening that's another story.


----------



## loephi

That is good to hear.
  
 I am curios hound it will sound with sbc audio though? Because i definately am going to listen on spotify.


----------



## agrosash

Glad to hear your comparison of AptX HD Flac and AAC, adonissk. I gotta agree, AAC sounds mighty fine here.
  
 loephi, I've actually just downloaded Spotify again to test this for you. iPhone 6s+, XB10, UE18 Pro (Balanced Cable). Spotify (free tier, 'high' quality setting) doesn't sound as full as AAC Apple Music, but not bad, and nowhere near SBC. I'd like to challenge the statement that SBC is used altogether. It sounds like the Spotify OGG is transcoded to the AAC format in order to get transported via BT, but I'm in no way an expert on that stuff  If you have a chance to get the XB10 via Amazon I'd just order it and try it out. A lot of good is happening inside this device and it's hands down the best BT experience I've had (tried Noble BTS, AT-PHA50BT, Sennheiser MM550 and now the XB10).


----------



## loephi

Hi agrosash

Thank you very much for your investigation. It sounds like the xb10 could really work for me.I am definately going to try find a seller nearby to test them out. A Anstell and kern reseller is in reachable distance from where i live so i will contact him and ask for a hearing session.

Regatds Phil


----------



## The Walrus

What is the output level (in watts) of this device to 25 - 30 ohms and 80 - 85 ohms headphones?


----------



## Traveller

the walrus said:


> What is the output level (in watts) of this device to 25 - 30 ohms and 80 - 85 ohms headphones?


 

 I give up.
 Any chance to turn this into a multiple-choice question ... say, for half the credit?


----------



## Iron-Buddha

I'm no electrical engineer, but the spec sheet says:
  
 Balanced 1.8vrms/ Unbalanced 0.9vrms
  
 You would have to convert it to watts. 
  
 I used: http://www.analog.com/designtools/jp/toolbox/dbconvert
  
 DISCLAIMER: I HAVE NO IDEA IF THIS IS RIGHT, IF THE WEBSITE MAKES ANY SENSE OR IF I AM USING IT CORRECTLY.
  
 1.8 vrms converts into 108mwatts @ 30 ohms and 38mwatts @ 85 ohms.
  
 Not sure if this gets full credit or half credit, but I had the same problem recently trying to compare desktop amp power to my AK320.


----------



## The Walrus

iron-buddha said:


> I'm no electrical engineer, but the spec sheet says:
> 
> Balanced 1.8vrms/ Unbalanced 0.9vrms
> 
> ...


 
 That's strange. I haven't seen one headphone amp that doesn't have the output power in watts in its specs sheet. This makes me wonder; is it just a DAC without a proper amp section? (Like Cozoy)


----------



## Iron-Buddha

Astell and Kern quotes all their output in VRMS, including the add-on DAC for the AK3XX series, so I would assume it's a real amp.


----------



## gorman

The thread is very long, so I haven't read it all but... regarding the AAC "untouched" through iOS, I wonder. I used to be an iOS user but not anymore, so I can't test it. But I expect that the OS is capable of sending audio cues during music reproduction, for notifications, etc. If it does that, it means that the sound goes through the internal software mixer and *then* is recompressed to AAC for transmission.
  
 So I would be surprised if they manage to send straight AAC files from Apple Music, unless playing those back stops all other system sounds from reaching your headphones.


----------



## DJ The Rocket

sound eq said:


> interested
> 
> which would be a better pairing an iphone 7 or galaxy note 7 for better sq






shigzeo said:


> SQ should be the same. The DAC and amp are 100% external.




NO! Sorry Shigzeo, but this advice is objectively wrong. Sounds like you fired off an answer without pausing to think about the question first. The Samsung with aptx will sound a lot better, and I do mean a LOT, like it's not even close. 

Even better than the Samsung would be an LG G5, G6, or V20, which all have aptx hd and can push the XB10 to its limit. Hook up to the balanced jack, and you'll be able to feel every penny you spent working for you!


----------



## james444

dj the rocket said:


> NO! Sorry Shigzeo, but this advice is objectively wrong. Sounds like you fired off an answer without pausing to think about the question first. The Samsung with aptx will sound a lot better, and I do mean a LOT, like it's not even close.
> 
> Even better than the Samsung would be an LG G5, G6, or V20, which all have aptx hd and can push the XB10 to its limit. Hook up to the balanced jack, and you'll be able to feel every penny you spent working for you!




Actually, shigzeo's right, because the CSR / Qualcomm chip supports AAC as well, so iPhone 7 users should get similar SQ to aptX.


----------



## The Walrus

The purpose of this little device is convenience. If you are really interested in sound quality, you should know that you cannot achieve loseless streaming with bluetooth (At least not for now.) 
 If your priority is sq, then plug your headphone directly to the source or buy a wired dac/amp.(Unless you have an iPhone 7. Then again, if you want to listen to music on your phone; why did you buy iPhone 7 in the first place?)


----------



## DJ The Rocket

the walrus said:


> That's strange. I haven't seen one headphone amp that doesn't have the output power in watts in its specs sheet. This makes me wonder; is it just a DAC without a proper amp section? (Like Cozoy)




It's a real amp, and the calculated guesses above are implausibly law enforcement. This thing drives my 250 ohm DT880 okay SE, and drives them well in balanced. It drives full-size planars (LCD2, HE-400) well even on SE. IME it's sadly all too common for companies to fail to list output in watts; the power amp card for Hifiman DAPs is an example i came across yesterday.




james444 said:


> Actually, shigzeo's right, because the CSR / Qualcomm chip supports AAC as well, so iPhone 7 users should get similar SQ to aptX.




Well your subjective experience is wildly different than mine, then. I do wish I could be happy with just AAC though. To my ears aptx is much better, and I would love to try aptx HD.


----------



## DJ The Rocket

the walrus said:


> The purpose of this little device is convenience. If you are really interested in sound quality, you should know that you cannot achieve loseless streaming with bluetooth (At least not for now.)
> 
> If your priority is sq, then plug your headphone directly to the source or buy a wired dac/amp.(Unless you have an iPhone 7. Then again, if you want to listen to music on your phone; why did you buy iPhone 7 in the first place?)




This is a strange comment. You don't actually have an XB10, do you? 

You say "the purpose of this little device is convenience." That's pretty closed-minded, don't you think? Why is it impossible for its purpose be both quality AND convenience? And since when is lossless the standard for quality? I'm not convinced that anybody can consistently tell the difference between a 320kbps mp3 and a flac; indeed, 256kbps mp3s are transparent to the majority of listeners. Aptx HD claims to meet that standard, a claim i have no trouble believing, considering how close aptx already is. In fact, with the Audeze Sine (my portable headphone), the XB10s balanced signal already sounds better than a wired connection to the majority of smartphone headphone jacks.

Your attack on the iPhone 7 makes even less sense. You (along with me and nearly everyone with a head-fi account) aren't going to be happy with the standard headphone jack on almost any nonspecialist equipment, which means we're using an external DAC. What difference does it make if it gets the signal through a USB OTG cable or a lightning cable?


----------



## DJ The Rocket

Regarding sound quality of aptx vs AAC, here's what Darko has to say:



> "Bluetooth audio is still sent from iPhone 7 to Airpods, or any other Bluetooth headphone, using AAC – Apple’s ‘own’ lossy codec of choice. In theory and reality this diminishes the listening experience when directly compared to an aptX-piped Bluetooth pairing...For those toting a pair of Sennheiser Momentum Wireless headphones, an Astell&Kern XB10 Bluetooth amplifier or a Wyred 4 Sound bLINK, better sound quality will more-than-likely result from pairing with an aptX-equipped smartphone – i.e. not the iPhone 7."




And theheadphonelist:




> "For those concerned with audio quality, at least for the time being, aptX seems to be the solution to beat."




That said, while i was researching this, i found out that some people actually store music in .AAC files. I did not know anybody did that. So presumably, **IF YOUR MUSIC IS ALREADY SAVED IN AAC FORMAT** (and it was encoded from a lossless file to begin with), in this scenario, AAC will most likely sound the best, for the same reason that using the inexplicably shunned mp3 codec would sound best, if you had compatible hardware [that doesn't actually exist]. In all other scenarios, aptx will sound the best


----------



## The Walrus

dj the rocket said:


> This is a strange comment. You don't actually have an XB10, do you?
> 
> You say "the purpose of this little device is convenience." That's pretty closed-minded, don't you think? Why is it impossible for its purpose be both quality AND convenience? And since when is lossless the standard for quality? I'm not convinced that anybody can consistently tell the difference between a 320kbps mp3 and a flac; indeed, 256kbps mp3s are transparent to the majority of listeners. Aptx HD claims to meet that standard, a claim i have no trouble believing, considering how close aptx already is. In fact, with the Audeze Sine (my portable headphone), the XB10s balanced signal already sounds better than a wired connection to the majority of smartphone headphone jacks.
> 
> Your attack on the iPhone 7 makes even less sense. You (along with me and nearly everyone with a head-fi account) aren't going to be happy with the standard headphone jack on almost any nonspecialist equipment, which means we're using an external DAC. What difference does it make if it gets the signal through a USB OTG cable or a lightning cable?


 

 No, it's not close-minded at all. Of course you should go for SQ; that's what this whole forum is all about. But I think it is pointless to argue about the quality of Bluetooth protocols when there isn't really much difference to be honest. 
 I completely agree about your comment on mp3. However, if XB10 sounds better than a wired connection, that means that your source's H/O is inferior; it doesn't mean that APT-X HD or any bluetooth protocol is better than a wired connection. 

 My attack on iPhone 7 was half joke; but let me tell you this: I recently bought a Huawei Mate 9 (a 6" phablet) and the SQ is superb for a mobile device. It drives my DT 1350 efficiently and I'm quite happy with it. (Which was what Apple could have easily done, but they chose a different path.) 
 BUT, I don't use my phone for serious listening. I have a dedicated AMP/DAC and my T1 for that. My point is: If your FIRST worry is SQ, then wired is the obvious way to go. That doesn't mean forget about SQ when it comes to wireless.
 PS: mp3 is a well studied and documented lossy file format. With wireless, there is a on-the -go decoding going on which is a totally different thing. FLAC over bluetooth = 320kb/s mp3 is a claim that I cannot accept.


----------



## Fandesic

Hi,
 I have a question which needs your help : Why do you prefer the XB10 since you do write that the AT has a better wider soundstage ??? It is really not clear for me and I did read 2 times your review. Thank's in advance.


----------



## The Walrus

fandesic said:


> Hi,
> I have a question which needs your help : Why do you prefer the XB10 since you do write that the AT has a better wider soundstage ??? It is really not clear for me and I did read 2 times your review. Thank's in advance.


 
 Soundstage? Neither DACs nor AMPs has any effect on soundstage.


----------



## Fandesic

k4syx said:


> Here it goes.
> 
> Sources: LG G3, Samsung Galaxy S6 Edge + (both Apt-X capable) + Neutron Player, tracks: FLAC and MP3 320kbps, some 128kbps files and mkv movies in Archos.
> 
> ...


 

 Hi, K4syx,
 you say "Soundstage: this one goes to the AT. This device has very, very wide soundstage, almost as wide as DACs like DragonFly or even Mojo. A winner here." And after you say that you prefer the XB10. I Am lost! Can you explain why you prefer the XB10 over the AT please ?


----------



## gr8soundz

the walrus said:


> Soundstage? Neither DACs nor AMPs has any effect on soundstage.


 
  
 Why would you say this?
  
 Of course DACs and amps can affect soundstage. DACs maybe less so compared to amps but both certainly impact it.


----------



## k4syx

fandesic said:


> Hi,
> I have a question which needs your help : Why do you prefer the XB10 since you do write that the AT has a better wider soundstage ??? It is really not clear for me and I did read 2 times your review. Thank's in advance.




Though AT IMHO had a better soundstage, every other aspect is better with XB10. Which still had soundstage good enough to my ears and that means that overall for me this is a better sounding device.

I hope this answers your question.

What I've learned since my original review is that XB10 is able to power nicely my modded AKG K7XX and stock Beoplay H6 Gen2. While the latter is to be expected as H6's are easily powered and good scaling headphones, AKG's require a lot of power from the source to make them shine.

And they do shine with XB10. This is a really good pairing IMHO.


----------



## k4syx

the walrus said:


> The purpose of this little device is convenience. If you are really interested in sound quality, you should know that you cannot achieve loseless streaming with bluetooth (At least not for now.)
> 
> If your priority is sq, then plug your headphone directly to the source or buy a wired dac/amp.(Unless you have an iPhone 7. Then again, if you want to listen to music on your phone; why did you buy iPhone 7 in the first place?)




BTW since I am visiting the thread already 

It's not only about convenience. Of course, wired connection will be better sounding (at least for now, though technology tends to get better over time), but only if the device that your wired connection is made to has a quality headphone amp section. And this means that though Apt-X is lossy, XB10 with this codec sounds way, way above any direct phone output that I've heard.
And I've heard all noteworthy of them (since that is one of my criteria when choosing a new mobile) since my trusty Nokia 5510.
That's kinda of topic but the best ones till now were LG G3 and HTC One S. I've yet have to hear new LG devices and S8 but that's a bit ahead of me with my S7E.

The point is that while wired, dedicated DAC/AMP stuff like Mojo or Dragonfly are of course superior, XB10 sounds better than direct wired connection to any mobile/notebook that I've heard while keeping the cost in line.

Well, another long one


----------



## Fandesic

k4syx said:


> Though AT IMHO had a better soundstage, every other aspect is better with XB10. Which still had soundstage good enough to my ears and that means that overall for me this is a better sounding device.
> 
> I hope this answers your question.
> 
> ...


 

 Thanks, that does answer my question 
 Does any of you as compared the XB10 with the Arcam MiniBlink (as it can be used travelling with a usb battery attached!) ?


----------



## The Walrus

gr8soundz said:


> Why would you say this?
> 
> Of course DACs and amps can affect soundstage. DACs maybe less so compared to amps but both certainly impact it.


 


 Not to open a can of worms here, but for an amp, you have your THD+N which should be as low as possible, your S/N ratio, the FR graph and the output power and impedance which should be well matched with your headphones. I'm guessing it's the non-linearity of FR in these little devices that audiophiles perceive as soundstage or whatever. Plug your headphones to any amp transparent enough to be called Hi-Fi and they all sound the same. The same goes for DACs. 
 But, unfortunately 99% of the manufacturers will not disclose the accurate and complete specs of their products. Instead they rely on the subjective reviews in audiophile magazines, blogs, forums, etc. for marketing and advertising. This thing has deep bass that thing has wide soundstage mean nothing when you think about it. When you say deep bass, what frequency are you talking about and what dB?


----------



## gr8soundz

the walrus said:


> Plug your headphones to any amp transparent enough to be called Hi-Fi and they all sound the same. The same goes for DACs.


 
  
 Again, these types of incorrect statements make no sense?
  
 More likely, some can't hear the slightest differences between DACs and amps but, rather than admit that, they incorrectly assume there are no differences and that no one else can hear the differences either.


----------



## james444

the walrus said:


> Not to open a can of worms here, ...


 


gr8soundz said:


> Again, these types of incorrect statements make no sense


 
  
 Too late...


----------



## The Walrus

gr8soundz said:


> Again, these types of incorrect statements make no sense?
> 
> More likely, some can't hear the slightest differences between DACs and amps but, rather than admit that, they incorrectly assume there are no differences and that no one else can hear the differences either.


 
 Did I understand you correctly? Are you saying that your ears can hear what the instruments we have in the year 2017 cannot measure?


----------



## gr8soundz

This thread was supposed to be a discussion about the XB10 which can be described as a bluetooth dac/amp. If it's incapable of sounding any different from similar devices, why discuss it at all?
  
 It's irresponsible to suggest that *every* manufacturer lists incorrect specs or that *every* manufacturer is lying about their dacs/amps _not_ sounding exactly like everyone else's?
  
 Shopping only by numbers and insisting that all audible differences must be measurable is ridiculous when each of us has different hearing (or are you saying that is wrong too?).


----------



## The Walrus

gr8soundz said:


> This thread was supposed to be a discussion about the XB10 which can be described as a bluetooth dac/amp. If it's incapable of sounding any different from similar devices, why discuss it at all?
> 
> It's irresponsible to suggest that *every* manufacturer lists incorrect specs or that *every* manufacturer is lying about their dacs/amps _not_ sounding exactly like everyone else's?
> 
> Shopping only by numbers and insisting that all audible differences must be measurable is ridiculous when each of us has different hearing (or are you saying that is wrong too?).


 
 Look, I agree this thread is about XB10. But when I hear about soundstage associated with dac/amps over and over and over again, I go nuts! We know every parameter of electronics, we can measure them precisely. If you are plugging your headphone to two different devices that measure the same within 0.001% precision and you hear a difference, that is between your headphone and your ear, do not blame the electronic device or try to make up esoteric terms only discernible to audiophiles with  hyper-sensitive ears.
 If you say the earth is flat because my hawk-eyes can say so, there's no point arguing.


----------



## Traveller

The Walrus said:
			
		

> ...when I hear about soundstage associated with dac/amps over and over and over again, I go nuts! We know every parameter of electronics, we can measure them precisely. If you are plugging your headphone to two different devices that measure the same within 0.001% precision and you hear a difference...


 
 I'm sorry, but I don't follow your argumentation. If there is a thread in "Sound Science" that would support your argument please share it with us.
  
 I have several DACs and the sonic signature does vary between them. The AQ Dragonfly Red is very mid-forward sounding while with the Chord Mojo, vocals are more laid back. Thus _the location of the vocalist appears different_ based on which DAC I'm using. Heck, I am dying to get my hands on a Chord Hugo 2 if nothing else for the _filtering and cross-feed options_ it provides.
  
 Having said that I am more than happy to suggest that the transducer represents 70% or more of the difference in quality of a "system" and as you noted, given _half-decent_ DAC/Amp stages, the soundstage _(or any other sonic attribute for that matter)_ should not _dramatically_ change.


----------



## gr8soundz

the walrus said:


> Look, I agree this thread is about XB10. But when I hear about soundstage associated with dac/amps over and over and over again, I go nuts! We know every parameter of electronics, we can measure them precisely. If you are plugging your headphone to two different devices that measure the same within 0.001% precision and you hear a difference, that is between your headphone and your ear, do not blame the electronic device or try to make up esoteric terms only discernible to audiophiles with  hyper-sensitive ears.
> If you say the earth is flat because my hawk-eyes can say so, there's no point arguing.


 
  
 Have you actually done any volume matched, A/B comparisons between sources or amps using the same headphone?
  
 And why is 0.001 the cutoff? That's like saying two racing drivers and their cars are no different after crossing the line 0.001 seconds apart despite one being faster in certain sections of the track. No human can accurately clock either to 0.001 and making assumptions based solely a measurement ignores so much more.
  
 Some devices measure at less than 0.00001 which is why equipment like Audio Precision's 555 are now needed. But that doesn't automatically mean they sound great. Better (or same for that matter) is a subjective term. Some ears are certainly more sensitive and I don't understand why anyone would suggest otherwise.
  
 I applaud anyone trying to better quantify (or standardize) audio measurements. Those who've tried have thus far been praised and/or vilified for many of the reasons we're debating. There are far too many variables involved. For instance, silver has measurably less resistance than copper so everything should sound better with it but I know first-hand that isn't always true.
  
 The fact is, no spec sheet will ever be long enough to confirm what sounds better to me without actually hearing it. Among the dacs and amps I've tried there were countless audible differences (no matter how small, including soundstage) when using my same headphones.


----------



## The Walrus

gr8soundz said:


> Have you actually done any volume matched, A/B comparisons between sources or amps using the same headphone?
> 
> And why is 0.001 the cutoff? That's like saying two racing drivers and their cars are no different after crossing the line 0.001 seconds apart despite one being faster in certain sections of the track. No human can accurately clock either to 0.001 and making assumptions based solely a measurement ignores so much more.
> 
> ...


 
 So yeah, in short your argument is that your ears are more sensitive than any measuring equipment we have, and science hasn't caught up with your ears' capabilities yet!  Kudos. Lesser humans like me will rely on what audio engineers say.


----------



## k4syx

the walrus said:


> So yeah, in short your argument is that your ears are more sensitive than any measuring equipment we have, and science hasn't caught up with your ears' capabilities yet!  Kudos. Lesser humans like me will rely on what audio engineers say.




Well it started with me so here are my two cents:

Human ears perceive sound differently. That's a known fact. Moreover, imperfections in audio lane (like thd, crossover etc.) do affect what we perceive as sound. And yes, any two mathematically perfect amps (scaling the sound without any distortion) will sound perfectly the same. But they do not exist (yet?).
Anyway, some or most audio equipment manufacturers introduce some imperfections on purpose because human ears and brains are not perfect devices either and this slight imperfections affect what we describe as warm sounding, fast or slow, musical or soundstage. 
Thus I'll say it again: AT sounds (to my ears) wider, with a tad bit better separation than XB10. This may come from lower crossover, why not. The thing is that I do not have manufacturers info on crossover for these devices, not I have the equipment to measure it myself.
The only thing I can say for sure is that with the same source, same song, same volume level, same headphones AT sounds 'wider'.

I'm engineer and I know what I'm talking about here. It's been more than 20 years since I've been taught how to construct amplifier (and believe me, in precise electronic world any super hi fi amp is considered trash because of high distortion and narrow band) and how to build a DAC, starting with simple resistor only devices.

So my point is that as long as you are right in theory, in real life, real devices are build flawed on purpose because that's what defines them and our human hearing.

Howgh.


----------



## gavinfabl

It's been over a month now since I wrote my review of the XB10 and my opinion on the device has not changed much. I've been using it predominantly with my iPhone 7 Plus and with a selection of headphones. 

I will receive my LG G6 soon and so will test the APT-X HD with it as well. 

On the debate of using the AAC codec, I've been streaming classical from Apple Music to the XB10 with my Sennheiser HD598 connected to it. The result is fantastic. The XB10 is able to scale well too. 

For what it costs versus what it does, it great IMO.


----------



## MonsterHouse

Other then this product and Chords Mojo/Poly are there any other options out there for a portable Bluetooth DAC/AMP. DAC being the most important part of the two. Been researching and can't find anything similar to this to compare too. You have this and then the $1000 Chord option thats not even out yet. 
  
 I'll be using iPhone to Campfire Vega's. Love any advice people may have. 
  
 Thanks


----------



## james444

monsterhouse said:


> Other then this product and Chords Mojo/Poly are there any other options out there for a portable Bluetooth DAC/AMP. DAC being the most important part of the two. Been researching and can't find anything similar to this to compare too. You have this and then the $1000 Chord option thats not even out yet.
> 
> I'll be using iPhone to Campfire Vega's. Love any advice people may have.
> 
> Thanks


 
  
 Another option would be the Shanling H3A.
  
 Subjective experience, while it may sound a tad better, it gets quite hot during use and has less stable BT reception than the XB10. Nine times out of ten, I end up using the XB10.


----------



## Audiowood

james444 said:


> Another option would be the Shanling H3A.
> 
> Subjective experience, while it may sound a tad better, it gets quite hot during use and has less stable BT reception than the XB10. Nine times out of ten, I end up using the XB10.



 


What is your take on the balance output of XB10. 

I have used an adaptor from 2.5mm to 3.5mm and notice that the stereo imaging becomes very narrow. The unbalance seems to have a wider soundstage while balance is very narrow. Did you get a chance to hear the balance output? It seems to have tigher bass, louder but the soundstage is like collapse totally.. 

Do you think the problem lies with my adaptor or XB10 balance ?

I got the adaptor here

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01M9HK243/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1


----------



## cj3209

audiowood said:


> What is your take on the balance output of XB10.
> 
> I have used an adaptor from 2.5mm to 3.5mm and notice that the stereo imaging becomes very narrow. The unbalance seems to have a wider soundstage while balance is very narrow. Did you get a chance to hear the balance output? It seems to have tigher bass, louder but the soundstage is like collapse totally..
> 
> ...


 
  
 Not sure I understand why you would want to go from balanced to stereo unless you were testing balanced vs. stereo.


----------



## Audiowood

cj3209 said:


> Not sure I understand why you would want to go from balanced to stereo unless you were testing balanced vs. stereo.


 
  
 Sorry I am not sure I understand what you are trying to say? I am asking if anyone finds the balance output to have a small soundstage.


----------



## james444

audiowood said:


> Did you get a chance to hear the balance output? It seems to have tigher bass, louder but the soundstage is like collapse totally..


 
  
 I'm afraid, I just use the single ended 3.5mm output. Bass seems fine to my ears, actually.


----------



## Audiowood

james444 said:


> I'm afraid, I just use the single ended 3.5mm output. Bass seems fine to my ears, actually.


 

 ​Ok thanks buddy


----------



## Gu1b0 (Apr 29, 2017)

Bought today in Shibuya.

Impressed.

(edit)
AK70+WE40... uhm, i think AK70 has bad bluetooth... it keeps losing the signal


----------



## stemplar

Question. Can low / High / aux be exalted? Or does this automatically detect the resistance?
As it worked for the Lg V10 / 20. ..
The link shows the difference between the balanced and au unbalanced output volume ..


----------



## Csokis (May 11, 2017)

Inside. 

Cirrus Logic CS4350 DAC + CSR8675 BT chip






_Source!_


----------



## stemplar (May 13, 2017)

Astell & Kern XB10 arrived. Trying with Samsung Galaxy S8.

Awesome, but much more beautiful sound, more detailed than a wire through your own ( S8) amplifier! (This also shows that BT technology is developing)
Or that's not so good about the S8 sound electronics or the AK invented something.
Poweramp v3 beta for a player.


----------



## Devang Shah

Scanned some of the previous pages but did not see this. Any one compare this to the audio technica AT-PHA50BT. I use one of those for travel when I want to avoid cables hanging out. I use it with CIEM, but would be up for a SQ upgrade.


----------



## Traveller

Csokis said:


> ...Cirrus Logic CS4350 DAC + CSR8675 BT chip


T4S!


----------



## canonlp

How's this comparing to Noble BTS? Better SQ in general?


----------



## Saoshyant (Jun 7, 2017)

Decided to order this for my new phone, will hopefully enjoy it.

I went with an open box via eBay in S. Korea for $135, kind of laughing at the estimated delivery time as it should be handed over to Fedex today, and they're saying it should be delivered by 10am tomorrow.


----------



## Saoshyant (Jun 13, 2017)

Giving the XB10 an initial listen with HD700, and for BT it's quite good.  Only downside is I'm using an XLR to 2.5mm adapter, so the added weight isn't ideal, and I probably look a little silly.  I kind of wish that the phone and XB10 didn't have separate volumes, but it's a minor issue.  I really should go for a walk and see if I have any cutting out issues like other BT has.

This is a great little circle, absolutely great.


----------



## PianoBlack

I'm thinking of buying a replacement cable for my CIEMs with an integrated mic (conference calls would probably never sound better). If you are also using earphones with an integrated microphone, how does it work together with the microphone on the XB10 puck itself? 

For example, are there any interference between the two? Does the earphone's mic take precedence, or would you be transmitting through both mics?

Thanks in advance for answering these!


----------



## PianoBlack

Brief impressions - listening through CIEMs (Null Audio A3H v2) on Samsung S7 Edge, using the unbalanced 3.5mm output.

*Sound*:

Higher noise level than even my Mee Audio X7 Plus headset. (This gets fairly distracting on quieter songs)
Soundstage seems narrower than X7
Treble details clearer and more sparkling than X7
Mid less in your face than X7
Bass more focused & punchy, with overall less bass than X7
Reception cuts out at 8m (line-of-sight), or 75% range of the X7 (in same environment)
*Hardware*

Very light & plasticky - seems suitable for wearing in the gym
Strangely the Play/Pause button doesn't always execute upon clicking, despite not having the buttons locked -  e.g. still able to change volume
Overall, not super impressed with this USD 160 purchase, thus far - hoped for an upgrade on the X7, but the killer is the higher noise level and the shorter range.


----------



## chaturanga (Jul 4, 2017)

There is a Kickstarter project includes another aptX HD bluetooth receiver having similar features with XB10. The company is Radsone and the device is called EarStudio. They claim Astell Kern, LG and Audio Technica integrated Radsone's DCT technology to their latest products. Any idea about this company? Are they the first company implemented Qualcomm's aptX HD chipset really?

https://www.kickstarter.com/project...st-studio-quality-bluetooth-re?ref=nav_search

I just got mine XB10 and started to listening via LG V20 but I am curious to hear differences between XB10 vs EarStudio which has 1/3rd of XB10's price.


----------



## DannyBai

I could be wrong but I doubt any of those other units have the amp section of the AK.  I also trust the implementation of the AK over any of the other BT devices out there.  That's just me though.


----------



## KookaBurrra

I just bought it and it's very nice sound for weight and clutter: for summer is ideal!


----------



## Saoshyant

KookaBurrra said:


> I just bought it and it's very nice sound for weight and clutter: for summer is ideal!


Wonderful pairing with LG G6.  A little bit of weight to the bass giving music a fun tilt.


----------



## KookaBurrra

I use it with my Nexus 6P. Basic it is compatible neither with the aptx nor with the aptx HD, but thanks to android 8.0 "O", bingo!!


----------



## blargman

I know this doesn't really fit this forum, but what benefit would this give me in a car versus a cheaper bluetooth transceiver such as the Kinivo BTC 460?  Granted theoretically aptxHD would be better but my iphone 7 doesn't support aptxHD anyway.  Since it outputs line-level to the car input, I can't see how the better quality DAC would even come into play? Or perhaps I'm completely off here?


----------



## chaturanga

blargman said:


> I know this doesn't really fit this forum, but what benefit would this give me in a car versus a cheaper bluetooth transceiver such as the Kinivo BTC 460?  Granted theoretically aptxHD would be better but my iphone 7 doesn't support aptxHD anyway.  Since it outputs line-level to the car input, I can't see how the better quality DAC would even come into play? Or perhaps I'm completely off here?



If you don't have an aptX HD compatible source getting XB10 will be meaningless. Instead you can look another receiver with just apt X support. (Of course if iphone supports apt x)


----------



## Saoshyant

chaturanga said:


> If you don't have an aptX HD compatible source getting XB10 will be meaningless. Instead you can look another receiver with just apt X support. (Of course if iphone supports apt x)



Plus for the cost of the XB10, a new stereo for the car with BT built in most likely would be cheaper.


----------



## ballog

chaturanga said:


> There is a Kickstarter project includes another aptX HD bluetooth receiver having similar features with XB10. The company is Radsone and the device is called EarStudio. They claim Astell Kern, LG and Audio Technica integrated Radsone's DCT technology to their latest products. Any idea about this company? Are they the first company implemented Qualcomm's aptX HD chipset really?
> 
> https://www.kickstarter.com/project...st-studio-quality-bluetooth-re?ref=nav_search
> 
> I just got mine XB10 and started to listening via LG V20 but I am curious to hear differences between XB10 vs EarStudio which has 1/3rd of XB10's price.


http://www.techhive.com/article/320...reless-streaming-to-any-wired-headphones.html


----------



## rade363 (Jul 30, 2017)

How is the XB10 compared to the Creative SoundBlaster E3/E5?

I am using iPhone 7 with Apple Music AAC -> lightning to 3.5 mm jack adapter -> Westone W30/Creative Aurvana Live! and I've already tried the XB10 and was completely satisfied with its sound. Some time later I found out the existence of SoundBlaster E3/E5, but have not tried any of them yet.
E3 is almost twice cheaper than XB10, while E5 costs the same as XB10.
Both the E3/E5 have two output 3.5 mm jacks, which is great for me, because sometimes I listen music with my girlfriend using the 3.5 mm jack splitter and the sound quality is quite horrible that way.
Moreover, the E3/E5 can be used as desktop USB DAC, which gives me an alternative source of music at my job.

Thank you in advance for any feedback.


----------



## Ynot1

AAC, APTX, APTX HD, APTX LL, etc...

Shouldn't the question be who makes all the chips? Because there is only one bluetooth chip maker that suppprts APTX and AAC.


----------



## Ynot1

The Walrus said:


> So yeah, in short your argument is that your ears are more sensitive than any measuring equipment we have, and science hasn't caught up with your ears' capabilities yet!  Kudos. Lesser humans like me will rely on what audio engineers say.



Hearing uses ear drums and sensors that many like me don't understand, but like muscles can be made bigger and stronger through practice called exercise, headfi members know we humans are adaptive and practice makes perfect, need I say more.


----------



## rade363

I've tried the Creative Sound Blaster E3 several days ago. While listening to the default 256 kbps AAC, I could not find at least any sound quality downgrade compared to the lightning -> 3.5mm jack. 
Unfortunately, I had no time to compare the E3 with the XB10, because the store was getting closed, however I am still going to compare these cute devices face-to-face soon. 

So here are my pros and cons about each of these devices.

*Creative Sound Blaster E3*
+ 2 output 3.5 mm outputs, 1 3.5 mm input
+ USB DAC/amp
+ Larger battery (up to 8 hours)
+ Cheaper
- Battery is not displayed in iOS status bar (bluetooth connection icon)
- Bluetooth 2.1
- Bulkier, heavier - 44g

*Astell&Kern AK XB10*
+ Battery is displayed in iOS status bar in the (bluetooth connection icon)
+ Bluetooth 4.1 class 2
+ Lighter, smaller - 23g
- 1x unbalanced 3.5mm output, 1x balanced 2.5 output
- no USB DAC/amp capabilities
- smaller battery (up to 5 hours)
- pricier

The only thing that disappoints me on paper is that the E3 has Bluetooth 2.1 only, while the XB10 has the 4.1 class 2.

Probably a stupid question - is it possible to use both outputs on the AK XB10 at the same time?


----------



## Micha

This evening I just received my XB10 which I ordered from the UK and the first initial impression is just .... WOW !

I paired it with my Galaxy S8 Plus (playing Tidal), using the balanced out with my JH Rosies and actually to my ears it is way way better in SQ than going direct from the headphone jack of my S8 Plus.
To be honest for bluetooth ... unbelievable ... you see gentleman I am really excited (even though my impressions are only the very first after it arrived 2 hours before).

Well done A&K


----------



## slackerpo

Micha said:


> This evening I just received my XB10 which I ordered from the UK and the first initial impression is just .... WOW !
> 
> I paired it with my Galaxy S8 Plus (playing Tidal), using the balanced out with my JH Rosies and actually to my ears it is way way better in SQ than going direct from the headphone jack of my S8 Plus.
> To be honest for bluetooth ... unbelievable ... you see gentleman I am really excited (even though my impressions are only the very first after it arrived 2 hours before)
> Well done A&K



are you using aptx?


----------



## roddin

rade363 said:


> I've tried the Creative Sound Blaster E3 several days ago. While listening to the default 256 kbps AAC, I could not find at least any sound quality downgrade compared to the lightning -> 3.5mm jack.
> Unfortunately, I had no time to compare the E3 with the XB10, because the store was getting closed, however I am still going to compare these cute devices face-to-face soon.
> 
> So here are my pros and cons about each of these devices.
> ...



Nope, it doesn't work with both 3.5mm and 2.5mm plugged in.


----------



## roddin

slackerpo said:


> are you using aptx?



qualcomn powered phones comes equipped with aptX and will automatically activate when paired with the xb-10. not sure about the exynos powered phones though


----------



## rade363 (Sep 20, 2017)

roddin said:


> Nope, it doesn't work with both 3.5mm and 2.5mm plugged in.



Thank you! I couldn't find this information anywhere.


Meanwhile, I had a chance to compare the Sound Blaster E3 and AK XB10 face-to-face several weeks ago. At first I could certainly hear that XB10 had a wider sound stage and the overall sound quality seemed to be better, I was really impressed to be honest. However, a bit later I had figured out how to set up an approximate volume level on both devices and I could not tell any huge differences between them anymore. Either the quality of selected AAC tracks was low, or my ears were unable to tell any difference after a long listening session. 

In my area, the XB10 costs twice the price of E3 ($~212 vs $~110), so I guess I am going to select the cheaper one. I totally love the usability, aesthetics and sound quality of XB10, but at the same time I need the functionality of E3. If I had some more savings, I would probably get both of them for different use cases. If only the XB10 had two outputs able to work at the same time, it would be a totally different story.


----------



## Micha

slackerpo said:


> are you using aptx?



Yes, the Exynos S8 is using AptX as far as I know


----------



## Ynot1

I think samsung and the company who owns aptx have some arrangements, so I don't believe the aptx is a different thing.


----------



## roddin

all things considered, the XB-10 is a great bluetooth amp/dac. i can forget about using bulky 'portable' amps and enjoy music on the go easily.


----------



## Sythrix

I have tried and tried and I cannot for the life of me find anywhere a mention of output impedance... which is pretty important on a device that has a balanced output, as it's usually higher, even if the initial is low.

Does anyone know? Did Google and I just completely miss it somewhere? I would be grateful to anyone who could direct me to the answer.


----------



## raypin

Mm...currently using the XB 10 when I am using Apple TV (4th gen): with my CIEMs and the Audioquest Nightowl Carbon, for very late-night Netflix when everyone is asleep and I do not want to disturb them. Love it. Dialogue is much easier to understand.


----------



## westermac

Has anyone tried to use their XB10 while charging? I'm very curious because I would like to use it in my car as well as for headphones, and the battery life is kinda... short.


----------



## Sythrix

westermac said:


> Has anyone tried to use their XB10 while charging? I'm very curious because I would like to use it in my car as well as for headphones, and the battery life is kinda... short.



Just tried it. Works fine. It will flash intermittent blue in-between a constant red charging indication for the LED and still output music.


----------



## westermac

Sythrix said:


> Just tried it. Works fine. It will flash intermittent blue in-between a constant red charging indication for the LED and still output music.



Awesome, thanks for taking the time! I'll plan on ordering one then for my incoming Pixel 2 XL.


----------



## Sythrix

westermac said:


> Awesome, thanks for taking the time! I'll plan on ordering one then for my incoming Pixel 2 XL.



That's what I'm using mine for now that it came in. I was pleased when I hooked it up that by default it was using aptX HD. Sounds great.


----------



## trellus (Nov 5, 2017)

gorman said:


> The thread is very long, so I haven't read it all but... regarding the AAC "untouched" through iOS, I wonder. I used to be an iOS user but not anymore, so I can't test it. But I expect that the *OS is capable of sending audio cues during music reproduction, for notifications, etc. If it does that, it means that the sound goes through the internal software mixer and *then* is recompressed to AAC for transmission.*
> 
> So I would be surprised if they manage to send straight AAC files from Apple Music, unless playing those back stops all other system sounds from reaching your headphones.



I can verify that iOS does, in fact, send notification sounds while playing my AAC tracks directly from the Music app.  I am connected to my Sound Blaster E5 (which supports AAC) over Bluetooth from my iPhone 8 Plus, and I just now heard a notification sound play over my AAC track -- it lowered the volume of the track to play over it but the track was playing in the background, just at a lower volume -- then after the notification sound, the track volume went back to normal. 

I suppose it could very quickly swap from sending the untouched AAC stream to a mixer-ed version of it, and disguise the sleigh of hand since it's lowering the volume of the AAC track anyway while it's sending the mixed audio.  But I've also had this question and have yet to find a satisfactory answer as to whether an iOS device is _ever_ sending the raw AAC stream or recompressing it always in order to maintain that mixer function.


----------



## gorman

trellus said:


> I suppose it could very quickly swap from sending the untouched AAC stream to a mixer-ed version of it, and disguise the sleigh of hand since it's lowering the volume of the AAC track anyway while it's sending the mixed audio.  But I've also had this question and have yet to find a satisfactory answer as to whether an iOS device is _ever_ sending the raw AAC stream or recompressing it always in order to maintain that mixer function.


If it's doing this in a gapless/seamless way, my money is in recompression happening all the time.


----------



## james444

trellus said:


> But I've also had this question and have yet to find a satisfactory answer as to whether an iOS device is _ever_ sending the raw AAC stream or recompressing it always in order to maintain that mixer function.





gorman said:


> If it's doing this in a gapless/seamless way, my money is in recompression happening all the time.



AFAIK all bluetooth A2DP transmission is packet oriented. Since splitting and reassembling VBR files is no trivial task, I'd assume there's recompression happening all the time.


----------



## trellus

james444 said:


> AFAIK all bluetooth A2DP transmission is packet oriented. Since splitting and reassembling VBR files is no trivial task, I'd assume there's recompression happening all the time.



Thanks, that makes sense to me.  I was having difficulty believing the claims of people who were touting AAC codec over BT as somehow not lossy if the original files being streamed are AAC, e.g., from Apple Music or local AAC files on the iDevice, because of the experience I was hearing with notification sounds being clearly mixed in.


----------



## WAS55

WAS55 said:


> Astell & Kern introduced a firmware upgrade for the AK3xx series units in October (included in the upgrade from 1.12 to 1.20 firmware for the AK320) that allows them to send aptX HD Bluetooth information to the XB10 and other devices that incorporate the Qualcom aptX HD chipset.  Only problem is the firmware upgrade did not contain an option switch to allow the AK3xx units to send either the older aptX Bluetooth codex info or the newer aptX HD info.   Receiving devices that do not have the aptX HD chipset will have issues talking to an AK3xx device.   In my case a Bose Soundtouch 30 III speaker worked fine with the 1.12 firmware that sent aptX info but does not work with the 1.20 firmware that supports aptX HD.   Seems like a shame to have to purchase a $189 item to use an older device when AK has the software for both options and could have included this in the firmware.   I have made AK USA support aware of the issue.  Will be interesting to see how they respond.
> 
> WAS55


AK released the 1.21 firmware for the AK320 a few days ago.  Although not stated in the release notes, AK have fixed the bluetooth compatibility issue with Bose speakers that I wrote about almost exactly 1 year ago.  I installed the new firmware and my AK 320now streams perfectly to any of a Soundlink 30, a Soundlink 10 or a Soundlink Revolve.


----------



## tryzub

Anyone interested in picking up an XB10, they're $99 USD everywhere right now, including A&K's website. I almost pulled the trigger a couple of days ago on Amazon when it was sitting at $108 and change. Glad I waited.


----------



## Audiowood

Anyone notice that the balance has a smaller soundstage compare to non-balance jack?


----------



## sandy1010

So if I’m understanding this correctly, only the Apple Music app itself uses AAC for Bluetooth? What do Tidal & Spotify default to on IOS?


----------



## gorman

sandy1010 said:


> So if I’m understanding this correctly, only the Apple Music app itself uses AAC for Bluetooth? What do Tidal & Spotify default to on IOS?


As far as I know all services use either SBC or AAC on iOS products. Because it's independent from the service decision. Spotify streams Vorbis, IIRC, it gets decoded on your iOS device and then sent via Bluetooth using either SBC or AAC (with AAC being preferred by being the more advanced codec of the two).

As we've been discussing, all indicators point to AAC never being sent directly through. Even when music is originally encoded in AAC format (such is the case for Apple Music). This is because the device needs to mix in system sounds. But you can read about this above.


----------



## Baroninkjet

Has anyone ever seen any detailed tests with an aptX HD source? I just ordered on to try for my car audio with Pixel 2. Will report back once I get it.

p.s. WorldWide Stereo still has them at $99 Black Friday price.


----------



## westermac

Baroninkjet said:


> Has anyone ever seen any detailed tests with an aptX HD source? I just ordered on to try for my car audio with Pixel 2. Will report back once I get it.



I've been using mine in my car with a Pixel 2 XL for about a month and have been very happy with the sound quality on aptX-HD; it sounds as good as the CD player to me. My only minor quibble is that it doesn't auto power on with USB power since it wasn't specifically designed for car use, but the excellent audio is worth having to toggle it on and off.


----------



## tryzub

What's the use case for this device in a car?


----------



## Audiowood

tryzub said:


> What's the use case for this device in a car?



For IEM usage in a car double up as wireless earpiece since it can receive calls. You can talk wireless like a wireless Ibud.


----------



## Audiowood

SQ wise, its an OK device. I added an amp to power up my IEM. Make a lot of diff. Using Pico Slim. But round shape not good for attaching amps.


----------



## Baroninkjet

What I plan to do with it is to use it for BT music in car, while using car BT (which sounds awful) for typical phone calls. Android allows you to do separate BT channels at same time for calls/music.


----------



## tryzub

So source is car out to XB10 plugged into your headphones for music? How will you be able to hear the ambient noise around you?


----------



## Baroninkjet

1. Phone broadcasts aptX HD bluetooth
2. A&K receives it, does its thing, and then sends it to aux input of car stereo.


----------



## tryzub (Dec 5, 2017)

Ah, sending it through the aux cable makes sense. I haven't had a car with that in years. I just pair my phone to the BT in the car stereo. I suppose it's more applicable to aftermarket head units or older cars.

Seems like Audiowood is using IEM's in the car though.


----------



## Baroninkjet

tryzub said:


> Ah, sending it through the aux cable makes sense. I haven't had a car with that in years. I just pair my phone to the BT in the car stereo. I suppose it's more applicable to aftermarket head units or older cars.
> 
> Seems like Audiowood is using IEM's in the car though.



The head unit that came in my car is actually ok, but bluetooth audio is not. And its hard to make car phone controls work right after replacing the unit. So had to find another solution, with phone which has no headphone jack.


----------



## Audiowood

No problem with ambient sound as IEM for calls only on 1 side of ear 
and  Music runs through speaker.


----------



## rade363

rade363 said:


> Thank you! I couldn't find this information anywhere.
> 
> Meanwhile, I had a chance to compare the Sound Blaster E3 and AK XB10 face-to-face several weeks ago. At first I could certainly hear that XB10 had a wider sound stage and the overall sound quality seemed to be better, I was really impressed to be honest. However, a bit later I had figured out how to set up an approximate volume level on both devices and I could not tell any huge differences between them anymore. Either the quality of selected AAC tracks was low, or my ears were unable to tell any difference after a long listening session.
> 
> In my area, the XB10 costs twice the price of E3 ($~212 vs $~110), so I guess I am going to select the cheaper one. I totally love the usability, aesthetics and sound quality of XB10, but at the same time I need the functionality of E3. If I had some more savings, I would probably get both of them for different use cases. If only the XB10 had two outputs able to work at the same time, it would be a totally different story.



I got quite disappointed with Creative Sound Blaster E3 to be honest... I needed a mobile Bluetooth DAC that would work with my Westone W30 and iPhone 7 and the hiss is just awful. I did not pay enough attention to this issue when browsed the reviews and even when compared XB10 against the E3 face-to-face. Moreover, it produces some noise at very high frequencies, that can be solved somehow by plugging into the second 3.5mm output any 3.5mm jack (even not attached anywhere one). But still the sound quality is simply unpleasant to me, I prefer the built-in 3.5mm jack of my old iPhone 5 compared to the E3. Also, the battery on my iPhone 7 dies much much faster with the E3 connected over Bluetooth. 
Anyway, I got the E3 for a very decent price with a discount, so I may keep it as an external USB DAC (until I get a better one) / PC soundcard / Bluetooth receiver, use it as a mic or with my old AKG K171 Studio, where the hiss is unnoticeable.

So I steel need a portable DAC for my W30, so again I am considering the XB10 as the best solution. I've also checked out the new FiiO BTR1, but according to the reviews, there is noticeable hiss when used with low-impedance sensitive IEMs as well
Is there any noticeable hiss when AK XB10 is used with sensitive IEMs (~30 Ohm in my case)?


----------



## k4syx

Black, silent background with IE800 and Momentum M2 in-ears.

I'm sorry but there is no common ground to compare E3 and XB10 when using quality headphones. XB10 wins in all aspects hands down. I owned E3 (notice past tense). The only device that was close to XB10 in terms of sq was Audio Technica's neat little gizmo. But still, "was" is the important word here.


----------



## mellda

k4syx said:


> Black, silent background with IE800 and Momentum M2 in-ears.
> 
> I'm sorry but there is no common ground to compare E3 and XB10 when using quality headphones. XB10 wins in all aspects hands down. I owned E3 (notice past tense). The only device that was close to XB10 in terms of sq was Audio Technica's neat little gizmo. But still, "was" is the important word here.



What streaming device do you use? Or what codec? The aptX HD? Is there any difference when it comes to aptX? I mean the E3 and XB10.


----------



## k4syx

Apt-x with S8+, LG G3, and some W10 PCs.
Source: flacs streamed by neutron or foobar (depending on the device).


----------



## mellda

k4syx said:


> Apt-x with S8+, LG G3, and some W10 PCs.
> Source: flacs streamed by neutron or foobar (depending on the device).



So there is big SQ diffference between E3 and XB10 using apt-x. Do you know anything about FiiO BTR1? It has apt-X as well. I listen music only from spotify. Not sure if there is big difference as well. I have Shure 1540 headphones.


----------



## rade363

k4syx said:


> Black, silent background with IE800 and Momentum M2 in-ears.
> 
> I'm sorry but there is no common ground to compare E3 and XB10 when using quality headphones. XB10 wins in all aspects hands down. I owned E3 (notice past tense). The only device that was close to XB10 in terms of sq was Audio Technica's neat little gizmo. But still, "was" is the important word here.



Thank you for the response! I'm looking forward to purchasing the XB10 then.


----------



## k4syx

mellda said:


> So there is big SQ diffference between E3 and XB10 using apt-x. Do you know anything about FiiO BTR1? It has apt-X as well. I listen music only from spotify. Not sure if there is big difference as well. I have Shure 1540 headphones.



The difference comes not from the aptx itself - both devices have more or less the same implementation of the CSRs algorythms. But the analog audio path is completely different story - XB10 is leaps and bounds above E3, even with regular SBC. Just not in the same league.. 

Sorry, I have not used FiiO device myself so I cannot comment on that. 
As for the headphones, the nice thing about XB10 is that it scales well with them. It is even able to propoerly drive my AKG K7XX, though the battery lasts short in such scenario.





rade363 said:


> Thank you for the response! I'm looking forward to purchasing the XB10 then.



No problem, you're welcome.
one of the reasons that XB10 sits on top of my list is this lack of hissing and quiet, clean background. Literaly every other device that I had (and there was a time when I was buying ANYTHING mobile with AptX just to find the best one) hissed, and only solution to make hissing less audible was to use additional resistance between the plug and socket (you can order or build these easily).

XB10 is the first and (at least for now) last device for me: nor only it has superior SQ, but also there is no hissing present. Never ever.

Sorry for typos and other stuff - english is not my native language and my browser tries to help my by checking my spelling... so every single english word here is underlined in red


----------



## mellda

k4syx said:


> The difference comes not from the aptx itself - both devices have more or less the same implementation of the CSRs algorythms. But the analog audio path is completely different story - XB10 is leaps and bounds above E3, even with regular SBC. Just not in the same league..
> 
> Sorry, I have not used FiiO device myself so I cannot comment on that.
> As for the headphones, the nice thing about XB10 is that it scales well with them. It is even able to propoerly drive my AKG K7XX, though the battery lasts short in such scenario.



I read from more sources that there is not audiable difference between headphones connected directly to the iphone or using the BTR1. But I read that XB10 makes audiable difference. BTR1 doesn't have AAC in comparison to XB10 so I'm not sure if this is the reason. With BTR1 I think iPhone use only SBC. With XB10 I think iPhone use AAC. But I have Sony Z5, which has only apt-X. Still hasitating between cheap BTR1 or more expensive XB10. I have Shure 1540 with impedance 50 ohms both of them should be sufficient.


----------



## Audiowood

XB10 hiss a lot with Noble K10 CIEM, that the reason I attached a Pico Slim amp to it.


----------



## Audiowood

I also got the Centrance Blue DAC coming in next week, so I can do a quick comparison. Reason I upgrade is the superior DAC and AMP of BlueDac but then it cost 2.5X more.


----------



## Audiowood

ALso BlueDac cannot receive call or skip forward/back and is way larger than XB10.


----------



## tryzub

Audiowood said:


> No problem with ambient sound as IEM for calls only on 1 side of ear
> and  Music runs through speaker.



Hey, that works!


----------



## k4syx

mellda said:


> I read from more sources that there is not audiable difference between headphones connected directly to the iphone or using the BTR1. But I read that XB10 makes audiable difference. BTR1 doesn't have AAC in comparison to XB10 so I'm not sure if this is the reason. With BTR1 I think iPhone use only SBC. With XB10 I think iPhone use AAC. But I have Sony Z5, which has only apt-X. Still hasitating between cheap BTR1 or more expensive XB10. I have Shure 1540 with impedance 50 ohms both of them should be sufficient.



I can see no problem here  
There may be no difference between BTR1 and phone outputs, but trust me, there is a significant difference between phone output and XB10 output 
IMHO it all boils down to the fact that XB10 has a very good DAC/headphone amp combo, way better than things that are integrated in phone mainboards (though I have yet to hear and compare LG's new Quad DAC's, G3 has still one of the best SQ in mobile phones)



Audiowood said:


> XB10 hiss a lot with Noble K10 CIEM, that the reason I attached a Pico Slim amp to it.



What kind of sensitivity are we talking about here?
My IE800 are 125dB/16Ohms and they are dead quiet with XB10, no hissing here.


----------



## Audiowood

K10 is one of the most sensitive IEM out there. I can hardly find any source that does not hiss with it. Even the Pico slim still has a very slight hiss.


----------



## tryzub

k4syx said:


> Apt-x with S8+, LG G3, and some W10 PCs.
> Source: flacs streamed by neutron or foobar (depending on the device).



I, too, have the S8+. According to Samsung support, the S8(+) both support broadcasting in Apt-x and HD. My thought is, the XB10 is pulling in the HD signal. Someone correct me, if they know unequivocally different.


----------



## sandy1010 (Dec 7, 2017)

The volume this little thing can produce is insane. Drives my AEON’s pretty well. Wasn’t it’s intended purpose but very happy.

One negative, the latency for watching videos isn’t good. Ok for my laptop as you can adjust the audio delay, but not great for an iOS device. But this wasn’t really my main reason for purchasing.


----------



## Baroninkjet

Oh my goodness! I got mine today. I just don't know what to say. Listened for a few minutes that turned into a couple of hours on Spotify and Tidal HQ -- Pixel 2 + aptX HD + RE400 (3.5). Some things were not quite a clean and pure as a wire (and I am being very picky), but the overall presentation blows away any smartphone I have ever heard.This is not your momma's bluetooth!

I wonder if they might be near releasing a new model. I've noticed that they are the Black Friday price everywhere again now.


----------



## tryzub

sandy1010 said:


> One negative, the latency for watching videos isn’t good. Ok for my laptop as you can adjust the audio delay, but not great for an iOS device.



...or an Android. From all the research I've done, it appears to be an issue that was introduced in one of the Bluetooth stack's 4.x releases. It is supposed to be fixed in 5.0.


----------



## slackerpo

Baroninkjet said:


> Oh my goodness! I got mine today. I just don't know what to say. Listened for a few minutes that turned into a couple of hours on Spotify and Tidal HQ -- Pixel 2 + aptX HD + RE400 (3.5). Some things were not quite a clean and pure as a wire (and I am being very picky), but the overall presentation blows away any smartphone I have ever heard.This is not your momma's bluetooth!
> 
> I wonder if they might be near releasing a new model. I've noticed that they are the Black Friday price everywhere again now.



next gen receivers should come out in 2018 with bluetooth 5.0 by several brands


----------



## Baroninkjet

slackerpo said:


> next gen receivers should come out in 2018 with bluetooth 5.0 by several brands



Have you heard of any updates to aptX? Looking at A&K description of the codecs, it seemed that it might be possible to get a lossless CD quality given higher speeds. All the hype is on  higher resolutions, but lossless CD quality would be a more practical step forward.


----------



## slackerpo (Dec 8, 2017)

Baroninkjet said:


> Have you heard of any updates to aptX? Looking at A&K description of the codecs, it seemed that it might be possible to get a lossless CD quality given higher speeds. All the hype is on  higher resolutions, but lossless CD quality would be a more practical step forward.



even though having not tried out aptx hd, i think that codec serves pretty well. i remember trying out a bluetooth aptx by audioengine on its B1 model, and i couldnt tell it apart when comparing with 24bit hdmi audio from a marantz receiver.

its quite possible that 5.0 will just take further aptx hd to a more standard (maybe more mainstream) adoption.

although if im not mistaken, you can already output 16/44 or 16/48 with aptx (flac or wav), in my book thats as cd quality as you will get.

with aptx hd you can get 24bit wich will get you to the highres domain some of us crave for


----------



## lostman

I was wondering whether it would be possible to buy a custom cable that would be short enough so I could keep the adapter attached to the collar. While it might look a little bit weird it should be quite convenient. Any ideas who could make such cable?


----------



## k4syx

Try AliExpress, I always get my custom cables from several sellers there.
I used to make my own cables, until I've realized that buying them custom tailored is actually cheaper.


----------



## zolom

Looking for a short (60 cm) balanced cable (2.5 mm connector)

Please recommend

Thanks


----------



## Audiowood

Try headphone lounge from Ted. Amazing guy and reasonable price.


----------



## tryzub (Dec 11, 2017)

Audiowood said:


> Try headphone lounge from Ted. Amazing guy and reasonable price.


How would one see his inventory and past work, testimonials or feedback? I have no idea who Ted is.


----------



## mellda

How can I find out what codec is used when listening on Sony Xperia Z5 Dual (E6633) with A&K XB10? I have android 7 and the phone won't get android 8.


----------



## sandy1010

tryzub said:


> How would one see his inventory and past work, testimonials or feedback? I have no idea who Ted is.



I can vouch for him fwiw. I know I don’t post here much but he’s very reliable & does quality work

I’ve bought 2 cables off him & several adaptors.


----------



## Audiowood

tryzub said:


> How would one see his inventory and past work, testimonials or feedback? I have no idea who Ted is.



Below are his website and other links are all the reviews and commentary about his work. Ted is my personal “go to” person for all my customs cables needs. He can repair, change termination and built you any customs cable at a very resoanable cost. He is usually very busy building cable. I bough a few of his OCC silver LITZ cable. He has type 2 now. Awesome guy. 

https://headphonelounge.com/

https://www.head-fi.org/search/4325...o]=0&c[p][sonnb_xengallery_photo][aperture]=0


----------



## Baroninkjet (Dec 12, 2017)

I wonder if someone might be able to give me some guidance on BT pairing. I'm using mine with Pixel 2 and pairing works fine, just seems to take more steps that it should. I have yet to pair it without *both* 1) turning A&K off and on again, and then 2) initiating pairing from the phone. If the A&K is on and in standby mode (whatever they call it), shouldn't it be listening for the phone pairing? Otherwise what is it doing?

What am I missing here?


----------



## Audiowood

For me, it will initiate pairing automatically once the AK is turn on, no pairing needed on my IPhone X. It does so automatically.


----------



## Audiowood

Also IPhone X has bluetooth 5, which means I can connect multiple bluetooth device to the phone at the same time. I am not sure about Pixel2.


----------



## Audiowood

Audiowood said:


> Also IPhone X has bluetooth 5, which means I can connect multiple bluetooth device to the phone at the same time. I am not sure about Pixel2.




I heard there are some issues with Pixel 2 bluetooth.

https://www.androidcentral.com/some-pixel-2-users-are-reporting-bluetooth-connectivity-issues


----------



## Baroninkjet (Dec 12, 2017)

Audiowood said:


> I heard there are some issues with Pixel 2 bluetooth.
> 
> https://www.androidcentral.com/some-pixel-2-users-are-reporting-bluetooth-connectivity-issues



I don't have the car connectivity issues some have. Just interested in procedures specific to A&K.

I will experiment some more with just turning on the AK. Thanks!


----------



## Baroninkjet

Audiowood said:


> Also IPhone X has bluetooth 5, which means I can connect multiple bluetooth device to the phone at the same time. I am not sure about Pixel2.



FYI, that has nothing to do with BT 5. My Galaxy SIII did it years ago, as does current Pixel. iPhone is finally getting around to modernizing its BT, I guess.


----------



## Baroninkjet

I think I figured out what is going on. Might be a bug in Pixel's BT setup. I have phone connection disabled for A&K in Android. It won't connect automatically. If I enable the phone connection, it works as you would expect.


----------



## tryzub (Dec 12, 2017)

I think what he meant about connecting to multiple devices at the same time was outputting to more than one device at the same time. That's a BT 5 feature. The Galaxy S8/S8+ were the first smartphones with BT 5.0.


----------



## Baroninkjet (Dec 12, 2017)

tryzub said:


> I think what he meant about connecting to multiple devices at the same time was outputting to more than one device at the same time. That's a BT 5 feature. The Galaxy S8/S8+ were the first smartphones with BT 5.0.



I do that every day with my Pixel and it does not have BT 5 (car BT for phone + A&K for media).


----------



## tryzub

Baroninkjet said:


> Maybe that is what Apple said, but I do that every day with my Pixel and it does not have BT 5 (car BT for phone + A&K for media).


 
You're not outputting the media stream, one stream, from your Pixel to more than one BT device at a time. Phone and media are two, separate streams. Make sense now?


----------



## Baroninkjet

tryzub said:


> You're not outputting the media stream, one stream, from your Pixel to more than one BT device at a time. Phone and media are two, separate streams. Make sense now?



Oh, so like sending media to different speakers in different rooms... I see.


----------



## tryzub

Baroninkjet said:


> Oh, so like sending media to different speakers in different rooms... I see.



Exactly. I've read that the audio isn't exactly synced between the devices.

Another use case would be you and a friend or significant other listening to the same Bluetooth stream, but on your own BT headsets.


----------



## sandy1010

Couple of odd things with mine 

After turning it back on, it’ll typically beep every 10 seconds. If I then restart it it’ll go away. Only thing I can summise is that it starts beeping when it doesn’t receive an audio signal within X amount of time? But the problem is it keeps beeping when you play audio.

Secondly I notice the audio signal can really break up if it’s shaking about in your pocket.



Anyone else have similar?


----------



## tryzub

I wouldn't think the shaking is causing the bad connection, but rather something about the materials in the clothing, something else nearby causing interference or the distance from the phone to the XB10.

You can reset the device by holding the power to the right for more than 8 seconds. Then re-pair to your phone. See if that helps with the beeping.


----------



## slackerpo (Dec 17, 2017)

tryzub said:


> I wouldn't think the shaking is causing the bad connection, but rather something about the materials in the clothing, something else nearby causing interference or the distance from the phone to the XB10.
> 
> You can reset the device by holding the power to the right for more than 8 seconds. Then re-pair to your phone. See if that helps with the beeping.



did some testing today. lots of interference with my bt peripherals, switched them all off and it went flawless. some clipping during a walk, comparing with the fiio btr1 i think the latter is the most stable, might be a 4.2 stability thing.

great sq overall. i dont ever want to plug a inear to my phone ever again.


----------



## sandy1010

tryzub said:


> I wouldn't think the shaking is causing the bad connection, but rather something about the materials in the clothing, something else nearby causing interference or the distance from the phone to the XB10.
> 
> You can reset the device by holding the power to the right for more than 8 seconds. Then re-pair to your phone. See if that helps with the beeping.



Actually I think it was more a cable connection issue after doing some testing today. MMCX cable on a Shure SE535. Used some blu-tak to help secure it a bit better.

Will try the reset, thanks.


----------



## Cheaplad

I got XB10 yesterday at HK$489 (around US$65).  It makes my X5iii much much better!


----------



## rG-tom

Cheaplad said:


> I got XB10 yesterday at HK$489 (around US$65).  It makes my X5iii much much better!



Oh wow nice, Wan Chai market or mong kok?


----------



## Cheaplad

rG-tom said:


> Oh wow nice, Wan Chai market or mong kok?



My one comes from Mongkok.  But actually it is the current price across HK.


----------



## rG-tom

Cheaplad said:


> My one comes from Mongkok.  But actually it is the current price across HK.




Shame I can’t find any sellers willing to ship one for a nominal shipping fee at that price!


----------



## Audiowood

rG-tom said:


> Shame I can’t find any sellers willing to ship one for a nominal shipping fee at that price!



Where are you located? IF you are in US, I can sell you mine. I just upgraded to BlueDAc.


----------



## tim0chan

Any wired dac functionality?


----------



## rade363

tim0chan said:


> Any wired dac functionality?


As far as I know - no, only bluetooth.


----------



## rG-tom

Audiowood said:


> Where are you located? IF you are in US, I can sell you mine. I just upgraded to BlueDAc.



UK, I've managed to find a seller now though


----------



## tryzub

Audiowood said:


> I just upgraded to BlueDAc.



Is it an upgrade though? What makes it an upgrade to you - just that it costs more?


----------



## tim0chan

tryzub said:


> Is it an upgrade though? What makes it an upgrade to you - just that it costs more?


better dac?


----------



## Audiowood

VelvetSound™ series Dac ak4490.
AmpExtreme™ headphone amp. This is a class A amp that could power anything from the most sensitive iem to hard to drive headphones.
Li-Po battery plays for 20 hours without draining your phone's battery (wireless mode). 
No lag watching YouTube. The video sound sync very well with the sound. 
No hiss for sensitive iem like the k10 ciem. 
Can power my hard to drive headphones like hd650 etc.
Can use as an external dac with window/mac or direct connection with android and iPhone. 
No need to use usb dongle like the dragonfly, hence profile is slimmer.
Direct connection and Bluetooth SQ almost indistinguishable. 

SQ is the main thing. The amps deliver a powerful punch. The range is larger. Bass is deeper, punchier, mid has very good clarity and treble extension goes way higher. Soundstage way larger and deeper too.

I also recommend Fiio q5. They are coming out soon. 
Use dual ak4490 dac.
Can swap amps according to your phone. 


Both of these device were marketed as decoder rather than Bluetooth device. 

According to Fiio amp manager he said

Q5 is a comprehensive performance decoder product, not a product with Bluetooth as the main selling point. If you are only using Bluetooth, you can pay attention to our new product, BTR3, and support LDAC\APTX HD. Will be listed in June 2018.

So that is why I think it’s an upgrade beside costing more. I am getting a lot more.


----------



## Audiowood

If u are considering centrance bluedac, do rewire your iem to balance 2.5mm TRSS. The sound quality is way better than my previous ak240 and q1pr. Both of which are consider some of the best DAp out there. The balance delivers a very powerful bass, more surround and treble extend more. Vocal clarity is powerful, feels like a desktop amp yet sensitive enough for iem. 

Do not buy an balance 2.5mm adaptor to 3.5mm unbalance, it does not work like this well. Soundstage will collapse.


----------



## Audiowood

Folks don’t get me wrong, the ak10 is a fine product that I have been using before it even launched. It’s better than my iPhone quality even using its bluetooth. But if u need to drive headphones like the hd800, or LCD x, HIFIMAN ed x with authority. The amp section is too weak. The ak10 is not design for that. It’s for iem only.


----------



## tim0chan

So what i am reading is tgat the bluedac is.the all rounder but is less portable ehile the xb10 is more portable but sacrificing sound and battery life?


----------



## Audiowood

Sort of correct. 

But then, the bluedac cost $400. Its not a fair comparison anyway. I think, if I just has an IEM, I will just stay with AK10. The AK10 is really good enough even for SQ wise. I am not sure I will pay another $300 more to squeeze that 10-15% more SQ. That being said, I have lots of other headphones beside IEM, so that is why I go for the Bluedac. 

As for Batt life, I will get a Anker cigar shape battery attached to AK10 and that extend the batt beyond 20hrs.


----------



## tryzub

I read that the BlueDAC doesn't support HD. Seems odd to do so much, but come up short there. Can you confirm, @Audiowood?


----------



## Audiowood

As far as I know, there are no APT X HD or LDAC support for both Fiio Q5 and BlueDac. 

I am puzzle too.. If they can do it for BTR 3 or AK XB10, why can’t they do it for their flagship products? Hmmm..


----------



## Ynot1

Audiowood said:


> As far as I know, there are no APT X HD or LDAC support for both Fiio Q5 and BlueDac.
> 
> I am puzzle too.. If they can do it for BTR 3 or AK XB10, why can’t they do it for their flagship products? Hmmm..



Q5 may, but will not know until it is released. But BTR3 in June suppose to have LDAC.


----------



## imparanoic

just wondering, how good is this product, as aptx hd has been adopted on many phones, could be a very decent high res wireless solution


----------



## slackerpo

imparanoic said:


> just wondering, how good is this product, as aptx hd has been adopted on many phones, could be a very decent high res wireless solution



it sounds great


----------



## officerdibble

imparanoic said:


> just wondering, how good is this product, as aptx hd has been adopted on many phones, could be a very decent high res wireless solution



I really like it with my Pixel 2 > Q-Jays Reference IEMs.


----------



## imparanoic

slackerpo said:


> it sounds great



thanks, shame i don't have any aptx hd compatible equipment, they are only ldac compatible, but i am asking on behalf of a friend


----------



## Baroninkjet

imparanoic said:


> just wondering, how good is this product, as aptx hd has been adopted on many phones, could be a very decent high res wireless solution



I have used it with Pixel 2 w/aptX HD, and head and shoulders above any phone output I have ever heard. I tried first gen aptX and was very disappointed, but this is good. My guess is that A&K is a big part of it, but I have not tried any other aptX HD so far. Well worth $100.


----------



## slackerpo

Baroninkjet said:


> I have used it with Pixel 2 w/aptX HD, and head and shoulders above any phone output I have ever heard. I tried first gen aptX and was very disappointed, but this is good. My guess is that A&K is a big part of it, but I have not tried any other aptX HD so far. Well worth $100.



its very strange. ive tried the xb10 with standard bt 4.2 on windows and android with non aptx (nexus 6p) and aptx hd (v20) and everything sounds exactly the same in all devices to me, and to a colleague. which is awesome, cause in all devices the unit sounds fantastically the same.


----------



## tim0chan

slackerpo said:


> its very strange. ive tried the xb10 with standard bt 4.2 on windows and android with non aptx (nexus 6p) and aptx hd (v20) and everything sounds exactly the same in all devices to me, and to a colleague. which is awesome, cause in all devices the unit sounds fantastically the same.


What are u using to listen to?


----------



## slackerpo

im mostly using the xb10 for source, and amping it with the q1mkII with the IT03. it makes for a great combo.


----------



## Tanelorn

I am new to this topic..
so sorry if that question is stupid but..

does it need an additional DAC / AMP as the XB10 already delivers both?
Wouldnt that alter the sound quality too much?

I would suppose it to be reasonable to use Phone -> XB10 *OR *Phone -> DAC/AMP  (like Q1 MKII)



slackerpo said:


> im mostly using the xb10 for source, and amping it with the q1mkII with the IT03. it makes for a great combo.



Can you explain why you use this setup? (no critique, I just hope to understand this because I am quite unexperienced here)


----------



## Saoshyant

Tanelorn said:


> I am new to this topic..
> so sorry if that question is stupid but..
> 
> does it need an additional DAC / AMP as the XB10 already delivers both?
> ...



Honestly I don't quite understand it myself.  The XB10 has quite a bit of power for its size, and sounds quite decent.  Adding a Q1mk2 adds a bit of bulk, and I can't imagine the mentioned IEM is that difficult to drive either.  Perhaps the resulting sound goes along with their preferences as it would also add a bass switch.

The Q1mk2 runs into the battery draining to charge itself issue when connected to an android phone, as most otg cables will allow charging.  Because of this, it might be a setup that somewhat makes use of the purchase.


----------



## slackerpo

Saoshyant said:


> Perhaps the resulting sound goes along with their preferences as it would also add a bass switch.



indeed.

as you correctly presumed, the xb10 drives appropriately the it03, though the extra body and bass the q1mk2 delivers paird with the xb10 it is to much of treat to let it pass.

the extra bulk is not much of an issue as the q1mk2 is very portable. if the q1mk2 would it have had BT, it would have been the ultimate game changer. maybe mk3?


----------



## Saoshyant

slackerpo said:


> indeed.
> 
> as you correctly presumed, the xb10 drives appropriately the it03, though the extra body and bass the q1mk2 delivers paird with the xb10 it is to much of treat to let it pass.
> 
> the extra bulk is not much of an issue as the q1mk2 is very portable. if the q1mk2 would it have had BT, it would have been the ultimate game changer. maybe mk3?



Perhaps, but that would but into their BTR1 sales unless they raised mk3 prices.  I'm kind of considering the Q5 due to this.  Unless I'm misremembering that is.


----------



## tim0chan

Saoshyant said:


> Perhaps, but that would but into their BTR1 sales unless they raised mk3 prices.  I'm kind of considering the Q5 due to this.  Unless I'm misremembering that is.


Yep, qt is the right one. There is a review tour going on right now on the q5 thread


----------



## slackerpo

Saoshyant said:


> Perhaps, but that would but into their BTR1 sales unless they raised mk3 prices.  I'm kind of considering the Q5 due to this.  Unless I'm misremembering that is.



BTR1 seemed to me a first stage proof of concept torwardS BTR3. it should consolidate this format, or impact the bluetooth cable realm (cant really remember whats is the current iteration of BTR3 in the present day).

having q1mk2 and q5 as oposite sides of the spectrum format, it seems logical that mk3 will merge the best features of both, to meet the sweet spot in the middle.


----------



## salla45

Just received my XB10 bought as impulse buy from a local mail-order dealer who was advertising it for 99chf only. Had my eye on it for a while, but it was 50% more expensive previously. 

What a great little device. Sounds brilliant, pairs well, and I've not had a dropout yet.

I thought it wouldn't work with my LZA4 balanced IEMs (had read A&K used a different jack setup) but it works fine. Am I missing something here?

Also, to my great surprise, it drives my Beyerdynamic T1's pretty well. Shocker.

Great buy!!


----------



## rade363

Finally acquired the AK XB10... I'm very happy with it so far!

The sound is noticeably better than the default Apple's dongle "Lightning -> 3.5mm jack" provides.
Black background, no hissing with my Westone W30 (special thanks to k4syx for the recommendation).
Completely love the ergonomics of XB10, too.

Way better than Creative SoundBlaster E3 in all terms mentioned above.


----------



## tryzub

It sounds great with my Samsung S8+ and 64 Audio A6's. I'm using this all the time. Going to be getting rid of my Mojo and Black Label iDSD, too. Just no need to carry bulk when I have such a great BT option.


----------



## salla45

tryzub said:


> It sounds great with my Samsung S8+ and 64 Audio A6's. I'm using this all the time. Going to be getting rid of my Mojo and Black Label iDSD, too. Just no need to carry bulk when I have such a great BT option.



Wow. That's some serious recommendation. I have a mojo and idsd nano but use them for fixed setup use. Went for a long walk yesterday with the XB10+LZA4's fed by my Note 8 using Tidal only as source. It was brilliant. No problems and sounded sublime


----------



## tuckers

I got one from the Massdrop for $80.  Using it with Pixel 2 and iBasso IT01.  Sounds pretty nice.  I usually hate bluetooth sound, but this at least doesn't have any compression artifacts that I can hear.  I was listening to some flute and recorder sonatas today which have a lot of high frequency modulation that can really sound nasty with Mp3 or Bluetooth connections.  With the XB10 it sounded pretty clean, very clear and airy.  I'm very happy with it.  I haven't listened to much with my phone before,  I do my serious everyday listening with an iBasso DX200/Amp5 and various phones. While this is not in the same league, it really doesn't offend at all and is a great solution for my phone.  

I am getting better battery life than stated, I ran it for about 4 hours the other day and it was at 60%.  But the IT01 are super efficient phones.  

One question, the manual states that one of the buttons turns "DCT" on and off.  What is DCT?


----------



## rade363

tuckers said:


> One question, the manual states that one of the buttons turns "DCT" on and off.  What is DCT?



Some Distinctive Clear Technology that claims to remove digital noise and improve clarity. I can't say I hear any difference though.


----------



## junix

Picked up one of these for the current asking price (100ish USD more or less) and I’m quite impressed with this little gem.

Paired with SP1000Cu over Bt AptX HD it is quite splendid, didn’t think for 100$ you can have this level of staging, details and well the bass is just majestic.. and we’re talking Bluetooth here! It drives my U18t with ease, 2.5 balanced.

When I go minimalistic with the iPhone I still quite like what I hear, yes there is a serious degradation of everything, but that’s Apple’s fault. 

Only negative I can say is battery life, but for the size and weight (what weight?!) it is still quite acceptable.

Great job A&K, looking forward to Mk2!!


----------



## Anglomilian (Apr 18, 2018)

Can anyone confirm information that 2.5mm balanced output of XB10 gives better sound? I have thoughts to make balanced cable for my iems.


----------



## tuckers

Well I've got a lot of time on the XB10 with a few headphones and I really like the pairing of it with the iBasso IT01.  The battery life is better because they are very efficient, and the plentiful deep warmer bass of the phones complements the clean and slightly lean output of the XB10.  Plus the IT01s present amazing detail and treble which the XB10 is great with.  It's an amazing combo for about $200, I don't know where you would get better sound


----------



## imparanoic

if you are in Hong Kong and want a bargain, you can get brand new XB10 from the official recommended retailer from A&K distributor for bargain price of HK$499 (US$63) with receipt and warranty

Super AV King
*Address:*8th Floor, Yau Shing Commercial Centre, 51 Sai Yeung Choi Street, Mongkok, Kowloon, Hong Kong 8th Floor, Yau Shing Commercial Centre, 51 Sai Yeung Choi Street,Mong Kok, Kowloon.

you can google their number or pm for their whatsapp but i don't work for them, purchased 3 of them for my friends and brother


----------



## tim0chan

the king is dead, long live the king!
new products have come out snd dethroned the xb10. one to check out is the  radsone earstudio that supports ldac and can be had for around the same price at its release($99).
has dual dac, bal output and seems to be more powerful than the xb10, not to mention the excellent support from the brand


----------



## imparanoic

imparanoic said:


> if you are in Hong Kong and want a bargain, you can get brand new XB10 from the official recommended retailer from A&K distributor for bargain price of HK$499 (US$63) with receipt and warranty
> 
> Super AV King
> *Address:*8th Floor, Yau Shing Commercial Centre, 51 Sai Yeung Choi Street, Mongkok, Kowloon, Hong Kong 8th Floor, Yau Shing Commercial Centre, 51 Sai Yeung Choi Street,Mong Kok, Kowloon.
> ...




considering super av king accepts paypal, it's possible they may mail order overseas, best to contact them via email and ask

http://www.superking.com.hk/index2011.php


----------



## Will Chiu

There is a special package in Hong Kong that when you buy the ak70mkii, there is a ak xb10 included in the package. I just got mine last week
Also, there is a significant discount too. I got them with hkd3800 (~$480)


----------



## garchy

It's weird, I can not find the product and the email from that website, nor does it work


----------



## garchy

I'm interested in the product.
 you know if an update is next; another similar product?
Thank you


----------



## Sound Eq

will there be an updated xb10 released


----------



## dotashope

Hi all just a quick question. I recently got an open box xb10 and the 3.5mm jack keeps popping out slightly when I turn the device, and it cuts the audio out completely. Is this a common issue? And are there ways that I can fix it. Also does it apply to the 2.5mm jack? I dont have a 2.5mm cable to test it out yet. Thanks


----------



## imparanoic

dotashope said:


> Hi all just a quick question. I recently got an open box xb10 and the 3.5mm jack keeps popping out slightly when I turn the device, and it cuts the audio out completely. Is this a common issue? And are there ways that I can fix it. Also does it apply to the 2.5mm jack? I dont have a 2.5mm cable to test it out yet. Thanks


Get an adapter I recall very old iPhone has a similar issues
But I never experienced this problem though


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## dotashope

imparanoic said:


> Get an adapter I recall very old iPhone has a similar issues
> But I never experienced this problem though


You mean use the adapter to try the 2.5mm socket?


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## mthaynes

dotashope said:


> Hi all just a quick question. I recently got an open box xb10 and the 3.5mm jack keeps popping out slightly when I turn the device, and it cuts the audio out completely. Is this a common issue? And are there ways that I can fix it. Also does it apply to the 2.5mm jack? I dont have a 2.5mm cable to test it out yet. Thanks



I dont have this issue with mine


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## dotashope

mthaynes said:


> I dont have this issue with mine


I tried several 3.5mm cables and all of them popped out a bit after little twist. It cuts out the signal completely when it's in my pocket  hope the 2.5mm will not share the same problem


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## mthaynes

you may want to send it in for service.  should not have this issue.  even if you do get one to seat correctly the contact does not sound like it is very good and could compromise sound


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## dotashope

mthaynes said:


> you may want to send it in for service.  should not have this issue.  even if you do get one to seat correctly the contact does not sound like it is very good and could compromise sound


The thing is... I bought it from ebay openbox for half the price. I don't think I'm backed by anyone :/


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## mthaynes

dotashope said:


> The thing is... I bought it from ebay openbox for half the price. I don't think I'm backed by anyone :/


you may be able to return under the ebay guarantee.  chances are the headphone jack is recessed to far into the unit.  that I probably why it was an open box


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## Indeez

Hi,

Is it possible to mute built-in mic on XB10? While sitting on meetings I quite oftenly switch between mute and unmute. It would be perfect to have such option on XB10, while my phone is in pocket/bag.


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