# Ayre Acoustics "Codex" DAC/Headphone Amp



## BlackstoneJD

Check this thing out! Based on how good Pono sounds, this thing is going to be a giant killer! It actually has better paper specs than my $3,000+ Ayre QB-9 DSD DAC. 128 DSD and 32/384 playback. The product is expected to be under $2,000. I wonder if will actually sound better than my DAC.
  
 http://www.audiostream.com/content/ayre-codex


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## NA Blur

Looks interesting, but it does not look like a typical Ayre product.  I mean Ayre gear always looks extremely high quality and this thing, as it stands in the photo, appears to be a demo or prototype.


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## BlackstoneJD

na blur said:


> Looks interesting, but it does not look like a typical Ayre product.  I mean Ayre gear always looks extremely high quality and this thing, as it stand in the photo, appears to be a demo or prototype.


 
 It is a prototype. I would be shocked if this does not end up being the best sounding product in its price range.


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## hola

Looks good! Hope its output impedance is lower than Pono's.


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## Joeybgood

I've exchanged a few emails with Brent of Ayre Acoustics today  looking for some production updates. Here's what he had to say:
  
 "Right now it looks like we will begin shipping these in the second week of May. That is a little later than we hoped, but it is going to be spectacular!"
  
 "We are still on track for a price of $1495 and yes you are correct on the inputs and outputs. The front 1/8" can be configured to be two single-ended outs or a set of balanced outputs. There will also be single-ended and balanced outputs on the back of the Codex as well."
  
 "The outputs on the back will be for audio components. The Codex can be used as a stand alone DAC or a DAC / Digital Preamp as well as a headphone amp. We will be coming out with other products in this new Anthology line to go with the Codex to make small audio systems. All the Codex will be sold through dealers"


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## Frihed89

I know nothing about this amp, but if you are asking questions, ask about the power supply.  The Dac section, from what i've read, is pretty standard on new Dacs and that's OK.  I haven't heard any of their new products, but the ones from 5-10 years ago sounded warmish, and that's not a bad thing either, but it does depend on your taste.  I hesitate to characterize what's on the other end of warmish, but if you've ever heard one, the Cavelli Liquid Fire (?) is at that end.  I'll go ahead anyway - brain-cell destroyer.


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## Jodet

'We will be coming out with other products in this new Anthology line to go with the Codex to make small audio systems.'
  
 That's the most interesting thing said here, at least to me.  
  
 So, a dedicated headphone amp?   One with analog inputs maybe?   Let's hope so.


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## Joeybgood

agreed... Would have liked there to be more than just USB and Toslink available. This is the first I've heard mention of them releasing a "Anthology" line. Intriguing.


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## Joeybgood

A couple more tidbits from AA:
  
 "The Codex should have plenty of power to drive any headphones out there. The power listed is twice what the Pono player has and not only that, but the Codex has an amazingly strong power supply which lets it drive difficult loads.

 "If you live anywhere near LA we are going to have it available to listen to at the upcoming CanJam there. Otherwise it will start to show up in our dealers around the middle of May".
  
  
 "We will have the Codex at Expona. It will be at the Audio Consultants room. Definitely take your headphones and listen to it there".


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## Daeder

I'm very curious about the Codex 1 from Ayre. As I'm looking for a new amp at that price range of about $1,500, I'm curious how it would stack up against the Woo wa7 Fireflies with Wa7tp. As that is what I am currently eyeing but could see myself picking up the Codex if it reviews positively over the Wa7.


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## Jodet

daeder said:


> I'm very curious about the Codex 1 from Ayre. As I'm looking for a new amp at that price range of about $1,500, I'm curious how it would stack up against the Woo wa7 Fireflies with Wa7tp. As that is what I am currently eyeing but could see myself picking up the Codex if it reviews positively over the Wa7.


 
  
 We're talking about something that is not even out yet.   But guessing on my experience with the WA7 I'd say the WA7 might have a better amp but the Codex might have a better dac. 
  
 This is just a guess, obviously.  
  
 Wasn't the Codex supposed to be out in April?


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## Joeybgood

I've posted some info (see posts above) from Brent of Ayre. (Sounds like a British knight eh? Lol) he is saying middle May for a release. Haven't seen very many impressions about Codex from Headfiers that attended Can Jam . this was rather disappointing and I'm left kinda scratching my head.


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## Daeder

joeybgood said:


> I've posted some info (see posts above) from Brent of Ayre. (Sounds like a British knight eh? Lol) he is saying middle May for a release. Haven't seen very many impressions about Codex from Headfiers that attended Can Jam . this was rather disappointing and I'm left kinda scratching my head.


 
 Yeah. I was left scratching my head also trying to find anything about it regarding its sound. We will have to wait and see.


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## Joeybgood

daeder said:


> Yeah. I was left scratching my head also trying to find anything about it regarding its sound. We will have to wait and see.


 
 Yeah... I am kinda left thinking that perhaps it didn't leave a really GOOD impression nor really poor, but rather, somewhere inbetween or else folks would have given it more mention. Know what I mean?


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## Daeder

joeybgood said:


> Yeah... I am kinda left thinking that perhaps it didn't leave a really GOOD impression nor really poor, but rather, somewhere inbetween or else folks would have given it more mention. Know what I mean?


 
 Yeah.

 I just hope that's not the case as they the Codex seem really like a really promising amp/dac.


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## Joeybgood

daeder said:


> Yeah.
> 
> I just hope that's not the case as they the Codex seem really like a really promising amp/dac.


 
 exactly! I've had my sights set on this amp/dac for several months but will not likely have an opportunity to audition it. Just have to wait until it's release next month and see what folks have to say about it once they can give it a lengthy and thorough auditioning.


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## Daeder

LOL I just saw my post and it looks like I didn't even think when typing it out... typos like mad. I guess that's what I get for staying up all night trying to find a good amp and dac solution.


joeybgood said:


> exactly! I've had my sights set on this amp/dac for several months but will not likely have an opportunity to audition it. Just have to wait until it's release next month and see what folks have to say about it once they can give it a lengthy and thorough auditioning.


 
 It's either codex in a few months or the woo wa7 fireflies. I have been giving the Hifiman EF-6 some thought and wouldn't mind picking those up along with a nice dac. It just might be a superior setup but I still need to read more.

 But if the Codex amp/dac solution reviews are solid and positive, I will have my sights set on those.


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## Joeybgood

Did Ayre give up on the Codex? It's 2 months past their stated release date now. You'd think they'd at least throw an update out there for folks. Anyone hear anything?


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## Jodet

I talked to them last week, said they were shipping demo's to dealers and they should have them by the end of last week.
  
 So you SHOULD be able to go hear one now if you live close to an Ayre dealer. 
  
 Peachtree has a $1299 headphone amp/dac coming out soon that looks interesting.


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## Jodet

Just called.    Price was going to be $1500.   Now it's $1800.   That is NOT GOOD NEWS. 
  
 Last week they said it was shipping last week now they say it will be shipping 'in a few weeks'. 
  
 In other words, they don't really know. 
  
 Peachtree, you're up..... 
  
 EDIT:  Well, just called Peachtree.   Their dac/amp that was going to be out in June will now be out in (maybe) October.


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## sheldaze

jodet said:


> Just called.    Price was going to be $1500.   Now it's $1800.   That is *NOT GOOD NEWS*.
> 
> Last week they said it was shipping last week now they say it will be shipping 'in a few weeks'.
> 
> In other words, they don't really know.


 
 It is stretching further and further away from the original Pono project. Perhaps that is the intent, to keep its Pono origins far from the minds of people who may be interested in this? Perhaps for people with the funds for TOTL headphones, they will not mind paying a couple of extra dollars for a matching TOTL headphone amplifier?
  
 But I also wonder how different it would be to simply take the line out from a Pono player and connect it to a great headphone amplifier? Perhaps I'm thinking too much


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## badgerdms

It's in a few stores, I just spent a couple of hours with it and a pair of Audeze LCD-3s.  I may have to go back and buy it next week!  Price is $1,795.


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## Jodet

badgerdms said:


> It's in a few stores, I just spent a couple of hours with it and a pair of Audeze LCD-3s.  I may have to go back and buy it next week!  Price is $1,795.


 
  
 Well.    HOW WAS IT?   What did you compare it with?  How is it physically, the parts quality, the look and feel.  
  
 SPILL THE BEANS, PLEASE.


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## badgerdms

It's really nice.  Honestly, I wasn't really comparing it to anything today--was just surprised to see it at my local dealer, so I got to listen for quite a while.  I have been considering the Oppo HA-1 and the Woo Audio Fireflies, but this may move to the top of my list.  It's been a while since I heard the Woo stuff--I was thinking about waiting until the Capital Audiofest in August to go hear the latest from Woo Audio.  I remember really being impressed last time I sat in their room.  I may need to figure out how to see it sooner to do a better comparison.
  
 As far as look and feel, I found a picture and video online which is exactly how the final unit looks.
  
 http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/axpona-2015-ayre-acoustics-codex-headphone-ampdac#keFAdVh8fVUrf5E5.97


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## sheldaze

badgerdms said:


> It's really nice.  Honestly, I wasn't really comparing it to anything today--was just surprised to see it at my local dealer, so I got to listen for quite a while.  I have been considering the Oppo HA-1 and the Woo Audio Fireflies, but this may move to the top of my list.  It's been a while since I heard the Woo stuff--I was thinking about waiting until the Capital Audiofest in August to go hear the latest from Woo Audio.  I remember really being impressed last time I sat in their room.  I may need to figure out how to see it sooner to do a better comparison.
> 
> As far as look and feel, I found a picture and video online which is exactly how the final unit looks.
> 
> http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/axpona-2015-ayre-acoustics-codex-headphone-ampdac#keFAdVh8fVUrf5E5.97


 
 Capital Audiofest 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Which dealer? You must be in the area, and I want to listen too


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## badgerdms

sheldaze said:


> Capital Audiofest
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Gifted Listener in Centreville VA.


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## sheldaze

badgerdms said:


> Gifted Listener in Centreville VA.


 
 I have a friend who is inbound to visit the area for a few weeks. He is thinking about a new pair of closed headphones, and wanted to audition them in person. I made a short list of stores to go visit.  _That_ store was definitely on the short list, and has just been moved to the top!
  
 Thank you.


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## enkidu

I listened to the Codex driving a pair of HD800's through what looked like a custom cable at the recent Head-Fi meet. I admit I'm a headphone noob, but I heard things in "So What" (the opening track to Miles Davis' Kind of Blue), I'd never heard before, and I've listened that track at least a hundred times. Never knew the bass was sustaining that long. The pair is now my dream rig. EDIT: Oh, and I was quoted a price of $1795.


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## daniel_hokkaido

What makes me a bit curious about the price is that they openly said its a development of the PONO board and uses the same mobile version of the sabre dac chip but I guess better quality power rails and capacitors etc ... but $1795 is surprisingly steep ... 
  
 I'd love to know more about what's in this thing. Ayre are a high end company and I believe the PONO business model is to not make a huge margin on the player so I hope this isn't Ayre trying to recoup a little. (just a little cynical voice in my head) 
  
 Dan


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## sfoclt

Yeah, I'm interested, but not interested in a $1200 power supply.


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## badgerdms

enkidu said:


> I listened to the Codex driving a pair of HD800's through what looked like a custom cable at the recent Head-Fi meet. I admit I'm a headphone noob, but I heard things in "So What" (the opening track to Miles Davis' Kind of Blue), I'd never heard before, and I've listened that track at least a hundred times. Never knew the bass was sustaining that long. The pair is now my dream rig. EDIT: Oh, and I was quoted a price of $1795.


 
  
 Was it the Cardas balanced, two 1/8" stereo plugs?  I only got to hear it with a single ended cable, but Alex at Ayre swears the balanced cable makes a fairly remarkable difference.  They are supposedly going to start shipping at the end of the month.  Right now, there are only about ten units out there in select dealers hands.


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## badgerdms

sfoclt said:


> Yeah, I'm interested, but not interested in a $1200 power supply.


 
  
Yeah, I'm sure that's what it is.


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## enkidu

badgerdms said:


> Was it the Cardas balanced, two 1/8" stereo plugs?  I only got to hear it with a single ended cable, but Alex at Ayre swears the balanced cable makes a fairly remarkable difference.  They are supposedly going to start shipping at the end of the month.  Right now, there are only about ten units out there in select dealers hands.


 

 Yeah, two 1/8" stereo plugs in balanced mode; I'm assuming the cable is a custom job. I actually asked him to switch to single ended mode so I could check with my ATH-A900's to see if it was a different recording, and it was the same version that I am very familiar with. Amazing setup, and was the best one in that price range that I listened to at the meet.


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## badgerdms

enkidu said:


> Yeah, two 1/8" stereo plugs in balanced mode; I'm assuming the cable is a custom job. I actually asked him to switch to single ended mode so I could check with my ATH-A900's to see if it was a different recording, and it was the same version that I am very familiar with. Amazing setup, and was the best one in that price range that I listened to at the meet.


 
 It's custom in so much as Cardas changed the usual balanced connector to two 1/8" plugs.  Other than that it's the Cardas "Cross" headphone cable made for the HD-600 & 650s.  They will terminate it any way you need for the same price--at least that's what they told me when I asked.
  
 Link is here: http://www.cardas.com/headphone_cable.php


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## enkidu

badgerdms said:


> It's custom in so much as Cardas changed the usual balanced connector to two 1/8" plugs.  Other than that it's the Cardas "Cross" headphone cable made for the HD-600 & 650s.  They will terminate it any way you need for the same price--at least that's what they told me when I asked.
> 
> Link is here: http://www.cardas.com/headphone_cable.php


 

 Thanks! Now I just need to find a stack of thirty or so hundred dollar bills hiding in the closet. I'm sure there's one in there somewhere...


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## sfoclt

badgerdms said:


> Yeah, I'm sure that's what it is.


 
  
 "The Codex ($1795) is a DAC/headphone amp that uses the basic design of the Pono—ESS9018K2M DAC chip and discrete analog output circuit—but beefs it up with a much better analog power supply and superior components in many places.​"
  
 http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/axpona-2015-ayre-acoustics-codex-headphone-ampdac#jU8cmDOAZs6ffRAA.97
  
 Did you get input on what are the "superior components"?


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## badgerdms

sfoclt said:


> "The Codex ($1795) is a DAC/headphone amp that uses the basic design of the Pono—ESS9018K2M DAC chip and discrete analog output circuit—but beefs it up with a much better analog power supply and superior components in many places.​"
> 
> http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/axpona-2015-ayre-acoustics-codex-headphone-ampdac#jU8cmDOAZs6ffRAA.97
> 
> Did you get input on what are the "superior components"?


 
  
 Nope.  But I have heard it, rather than just making assumptions on the internet.


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## daniel_hokkaido

Im just trying to remember if I saw the Codex will have the mobile version of the sabre chip just like the PONO. I know the amp takes the most power benefits but seems odd to use the mobile chip in a desktop unit. Again, saving time and releasing earlier than if they had to implement the desktop sabre chip> I don't know, maybe the Mobile version isn't much different performance wise.


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## stthui

I have ordered the codex amp well over 6 weeks ago, unfortunately it is close to impossible to receive an update about the shipping status from ayre, I have not been able to receive any word at all, and this after several phone call ( there preferred method of comunication. 
 Is anyone out here who has some information about the release schedule?


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## badgerdms

Well, if you ordered six weeks ago you actually pre-ordered--the unit wasn't available yet.  I've had no problem getting hold of Alex at Ayre, they were supposed to start shipping last week but it wouldn't stun me if they are off by a couple of more weeks.  Charles likes to tinker right up until the release.


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## stthui

You are giving me some hope, I will try one more time to get in touch with Alex... and yes, tinkering sounds fine with me, can not wait to listen to the results!


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## scottsol

I had one at my store about 6 weeks ago for final testing. When they were ready to begin production a supplier was backordered on a part. Before the part finally came in Ayre had come up with some changes. Not sure yet if it was hardware, software or both.
  
 I got in the first finalized production unit  on Friday. I was very impressed with my original sample, but the new one is sick, even before being broken in. I don't generally listen to headphones at the store, but right now I am playing a CD rip of Modern Cool with the Audeze LCD3 and am hoping there are no customers or phone calls for the next hour or two.
  
 And, yes, balanced is much better.


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## stthui

Scott, this sounds really promising.
 I am happly to wait a bit in order to receive improved equipment. 
 I understand that Ayre has standards, and that the company will not realize an amp that is short of all the potentials.
 I own LCD3's myself, I really liked the pairing of the Codex and the phones in the store.
 Have you upgraded your cables?


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## scottsol

Just the standard cables. in fact the whole setup was done with no care as the intent was just to use it for breaking in the Codex.
  
 I'm using  my very slow work computer loaded with business apps playing AIFF CD Rips with Foobar. The USB cable is the generic version supplied with the Codex using the same buss as the keyboard and mouse. The Audeze cables are standard, using a $100 Transparent Audio adaptor to fit the 3.5mm  connections on on the Codex. All this is sitting on a glass display case with fluorescent lighting and no power conditioning.
  
 In the next few days we'll probably move it to one of our sound rooms and evaluate it just as a DAC.


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## badgerdms

Sounds great.  Mine shipped on Friday, so I should have it later this week.  I can't wait to hear the latest!


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## stthui

I had a taste of what the dac is capable of as a standalone at Berkeley Music Lovers.
 More than just convincing to my tired ears.... to my eyes, well, that is a whole other discussion. At least it is compact, a remarkable achievement for sure.


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## BlackstoneJD

How does it compare to the QB-9 DSD?


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## USAudio

I think I would prefer a 4-pin balanced XLR to the two 3.5mm mini jacks. Seems more fitting to an Ayre high-performance product.

Don't 3.5mm jacks have poor crosstalk characteristics?


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## KmanChu

So the Codex has finally started shipping? Anyone have any feedback? I have a QB-9DSD based headphone system and supposedly the Codex is within spitting distance of the QB-9 as a dac, and I would venture to say that their amp section should be pretty excellent. 
  
 Their spec sheet is a little werid though. The headphone output is listed as voltage output, the peak voltage is listed at 7 volts. For a 110ohm headphone (my LCD-3F) this is a not a particularly impressive spec of 450mW peak and 315mW rms. That said, if it can deliver the current instantaneously then it should realistically be just fine. Still though, it would be an $1800 dac/amp with a power-stage that appears a bit weak.


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## stthui

I received the codex and had about 5 hours of listening time  coupled with 16 hours of break in time.
 Obviously the following is my *first impression*, scratching the surface.
 However, the quality of the device is already apparent.
 Right out of the box the codex generates a convincing sound paired with the latest generation Audeze LCD3.
 My interim midrange  schiit dac and amps (meant to fire Grados's) and the Woo Audio WA7, a loner from a friend, are clearly inferior.
  
 Now, here are my specific (hopefully not too premature) observations exemplified by two recordings:
  
 Valery Gergiev's Shostakovich 9th:
  Wow... This was my best listening experience of Shostakovich to date, spare some live performances.
 The background's darkness and other gains added a lot of separation to the instruments.
 The added percussion's punch, the cello's debts and airy floating violins  brought me closer to this complex recording.
 Lastly, the soundstage seems right, far more open than that of the Schiit's and surpassingly more open to the Woo as well.
  

 Currentzis's recording of Mozart's figaro:
 This is possibly the brightest and most attacking Mozart recording I have listened too.
 The LCD3's natural and slightly amber sound architecture is not so apparent here once the violins and clarinets and wood winds rise at once. 
 The trebles were exhausting me a bit, surprisingly with some grain that seemed totally absent in all other passages and pieces. I could not replicate this effect with other recordings, yet I think that the Codex will make the listing experience more demanding, not sure if marathon listing session will be possible with such definition. (I have some inner ear issues... a little atypical in this regard). 
 Soundstage increased a great deal. The voices were immediate  and clear, heightening the already impressive mid ranges of my LCD3's.
  
  
 Bottom line so far:
 Impressive though all ranges, great match to the LCD3's.
 Compact and portable!! (neutral appearance, but not the best looking device)
 Like the fact that the dac can be a stand alone for other systems, supposly matching Ayres higher end amp's
  
 I am concerned that my custom aftermarket silver cables (yet to arrived but ordered) will brighten the trebles to far, would not surprise me if the cables and up for sale at the forum


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## IBPhoenix09

> Originally Posted by *stthui* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Bottom line so far:
> Impressive though all ranges, great match to the LCD3's.
> ...


 
 ^This^
  
 I've found the Codex pairs well with Audeze headphones in general. The shop where I work uses one to drive either LCD-2s or EL-8s (Closed) in balanced for our headphone demos. Fed by a Mac book with Audirvana. Great piece for the money. Love it as a preamp too.


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## KmanChu

Thanks for the updates, please keep them coming. I was a little concerned about the codex having the power to drive the LCD-3s convincingly, but it sounds like it is a good match. I am thinking of condensing my system and I think the Codex may be my choice. I just wish it had a standard 4-pin XLR on the front panel for balanced instead of the wonky 3.5mm jacks


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## stthui

kmanchu said:


> Thanks for the updates, please keep them coming. I was a little concerned about the codex having the power to drive the LCD-3s convincingly, but it sounds like it is a good match. I am thinking of condensing my system and I think the Codex may be my choice. I just wish it had a standard 4-pin XLR on the front panel for balanced instead of the wonky 3.5mm jacks


 

 With my knowledge, there is no drop in sound quality having the 3.5mm.
 I condensed my system, the size of the device allows me to travel with the setup.
 I can not imagine a more compact Dac/Amp?preamp in this class.


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## foreverzer0

This seems really similar to the lh labs pulse x doesn't it?


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## badf00d

Listened to one of these yesterday with LCD-2F and HD800. Sounded harsh/bright, but with good bass. Not at all what I hoped to hear - maybe it's the DAC section but for the price I was expecting to love it.


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## kazys

I had a Codex in my system for a week in September. As a result I have ordered one. I didn't audition the headphone amp side of it as I intended it to be part of a hi-fi system that would ultimately drive an amplifier connected to floorstanding speakers.
  
 I was very impressed by the performance of the Codex as a DAC which bested a Wyred 4 Sound DAC-2 DSD SE. An Ayre QB-9 DSD version is crisper but the Codex wound up more enjoyable, a tad warmer (Ayre can be a bit clinical sometimes).
  
 I expect to get my Codex sometime this week. It's taken about two months to go from order to shipping and I am very much looking forward to actually having this here.


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## yage

badf00d said:


> Listened to one of these yesterday with LCD-2F and HD800. Sounded harsh/bright, but with good bass. Not at all what I hoped to hear - maybe it's the DAC section but for the price I was expecting to love it.


 
  
 Not my experience at all. I listened to the Codex with the Sennheiser HD 600 (balanced), Etymotic ER-4S, and NAD Viso HP50. It had a very enchanting, pure midrange with good treble extension and well proportioned and tuneful bass. In no way was it harsh or bright. If so, I hope you told the dealer because it might be defective.


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## kbuzz

wonder how this will stack up to a hugo....


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## alpha421

Anyone for the Northwest (WA,OR) know who may be carrying this?  I really want to hear it before breaking the bank.  Thanks in advance.


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## alpha421

NVM. Local Definitive Audio has one. FYI for those wanting to audition one in the Seattle area; they have the usual suspects to listen with (HD800, LCD3, OPPO-PM1), but not in balanced configuration.


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## flatmap

alpha421 said:


> NVM. Local Definitive Audio has one. FYI for those wanting to audition one in the Seattle area; they have the usual suspects to listen with (HD800, LCD3, OPPO-PM1), but not in balanced configuration.


 

 Doesn't the Codex have the same kind of balanced connector scheme as the Pono player-- i.e., using a pair of  3.5 mm mini connectors?  I have my HD 650 wired up this way, so is very tempting to try them out with this..... but really should not be spending that much money before the approaching holiday season.


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## alpha421

Yes it does, I believe.  I plan to visit DA this weekend with my PONO balanced iems' and laptop. I'm looking for a desktop solution and the Codex seems to be a natural transition.  However, that Sony PHA-3 hasn't left my mind for consideration.
  
 I agree, Christmas is all about giving.  Perhaps, I'll wait until the new year before considering myself as a recipient from myself!


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## yage

flatmap said:


> Doesn't the Codex have the same kind of balanced connector scheme as the Pono player-- i.e., using a pair of  3.5 mm mini connectors?


 
  


alpha421 said:


> Yes it does, I believe.  I plan to visit DA this weekend with my PONO balanced iems' and laptop.


 
  
 Yes - twin 3.5 mm connectors. When you plug both of the jacks in the display will flash either 'Bal' or 'Shr'. If it's on 'Shr' just rotate it to 'Bal' and press the knob in once. The balanced LED should light up if everything's kosher. Don't leave anything plugged into the 1/4" jack when attempting to do this because it will stay in single-ended mode no matter what.


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## lramirez1959

Guys, Do you kniw when can I purchse the Cdex online? Having trouble finding one.


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## flatmap

lramirez1959 said:


> Guys, Do you kniw when can I purchse the Cdex online? Having trouble finding one.


 

 In the past I have had good luck simply contacting one of the official brick & mortar dealers by email or phone.  I purchase with a credit card, and they've shipped to my location.  Was no more expensive than a typical online purchase... and actually more enjoyable.


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## lramirez1959

flatmap said:


> lramirez1959 said:
> 
> 
> > Guys, Do you kniw when can I purchse the Cdex online? Having trouble finding one.
> ...


 
 Thanks for the advice, will wait for more reviews before making the decision.


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## flatmap

alpha421 said:


> Yes it does, I believe.  I plan to visit DA this weekend with my PONO balanced iems' and laptop. I'm looking for a desktop solution and the Codex seems to be a natural transition.  However, that Sony PHA-3 hasn't left my mind for consideration.
> 
> I agree, Christmas is all about giving.  Perhaps, I'll wait until the new year before considering myself as a recipient from myself!


 

 @alpha421, did you make it to Definitive Audio last weekend?  If so, any thoughts, positive or negative?


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## alpha421

Not yet.  Sick kids and wife have been my ball and chain.


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## eddprzz

Man I've had my codex for about 2 months now and all I can say is it's amazing it does sound a bit terrible when u get it out the box so I really suggest doing at least 50 hrs burn in time but it jus really sounds amazing I had the audeze lcd3 with razor for about a year now and when I finally got the chance to buy a norne audio cable with dual 3.5mm connectors for balanced listening I was amazed it bought life back to my system I decided about 2 days ago I would try single ended 1/4 connector for a day but I couldn't do it. Yes I understand my post is poorly written but I just had to say it I'm very pleased with the codex and I hope you guys put this piece of equipment high on your "list" because it's really good


----------



## flatmap

eddprzz said:


> Man I've had my codex for about 2 months now and all I can say is it's amazing it does sound a bit terrible when u get it out the box so I really suggest doing at least 50 hrs burn in time but it jus really sounds amazing I had the audeze lcd3 with razor for about a year now and when I finally got the chance to buy a norne audio cable with dual 3.5mm connectors for balanced listening I was amazed it bought life back to my system I decided about 2 days ago I would try single ended 1/4 connector for a day but I couldn't do it. Yes I understand my post is poorly written but I just had to say it I'm very pleased with the codex and I hope you guys put this piece of equipment high on your "list" because it's really good


 

 Thanks, eddprzz.  So it sounds like -- to really squeeze the magic out -- one had best go with balanced operation.  Am I reading you right?


----------



## eddprzz

flatmap said:


> Thanks, eddprzz.  So it sounds like -- to really squeeze the magic out -- one had best go with balanced operation.  Am I reading you right?


 You are completely right. In my opinion when you buy the codex it's the only way to run your headphones when you have the option to run it balanced it jus makes the difference.


----------



## kbuzz

I'd regally love to see a no holds bar throw down between the codex and Hugo


----------



## alpha421

So I was finally able to visit my local Definitive Audio(DF) toy land to test out the Codex.  I spent about an hour there. I brought my PONO for comparison and my two earphones (both PONO balanced - Aurisonics ASG1plus and Yuin PK1 earbuds).  I understand that the PONO design was ported over to some degree in the Codex but greatly enhanced in every conceivable way.  The Codex setup was connected to some Sonos server and the only track they had in queue that I was interested in listening to was the lossless Eagles track, "Hotel California."  The Codex does have a rather small footprint.  The chassis looks like a generic Hammond type case with the custom front plate, and the dial control was pretty intuitive.
  
 I listened to this track three times from start to finish.  Then swapped to my PONO player listening to the same track twice before going back to the Codex and listening to the same track again twice. You can probably guess that between the Codex and PONO, the two don't belong even remotely close in the same class. This can be said to pretty much any DAP and desktop amp/DAC combo. What I like about my PONO is its smooth yet detailed sound that is pleasingly analog to my ears but without sounding too warm. Despite sharing the same genes if you will, the Codex was exceptionally smooth and the biggest difference between the two is in spatial space and cues that contributed to very realistic and holographic sound experience.  If you ever listened to a track where all the sound sources (voices, instruments, audience..etc)  sounds like it's coming from the right position with the right depth and width in relation to each other and within the confined venue space, this is what the Codex brought to my ears.
  
 My PONO is my only experience with Ayre and from what I've read about them and their products, they do seem to have their own philosophical approach. I was told by the DF salesman that Ayre never discounts or goes on sale, and the Codex is the cheapest product they sell.  I must admit, I was tempted to pull out my credit card and suck up the $2K price tag (taxes included), but I'm not prepared nor willing to deal with my spouse's wrath.  In end, the Codex is definitely on my wish list and if two grand ever falls on my lap or finds its way to my bank account, my desktop end-game will finally come to an end (pun intended).


----------



## flatmap

alpha421 said:


> So I was finally able to visit my local Definitive Audio(DF) toy land to test out the Codex.  I spent about an hour there. I brought my PONO for comparison and my two earphones (both PONO balanced - Aurisonics ASG1plus and Yuin PK1 earbuds).  I understand that the PONO design was ported over to some degree in the Codex but greatly enhanced in every conceivable way.  The Codex setup was connected to some Sonos server and the only track they had in queue that I was interested in listening to was the lossless Eagles track, "Hotel California."  The Codex does have a rather small footprint.  The chassis looks like a generic Hammond type case with the custom front plate, and the dial control was pretty intuitive.
> 
> I listened to this track three times from start to finish.  Then swapped to my PONO player listening to the same track twice before going back to the Codex and listening to the same track again twice. You can probably guess that between the Codex and PONO, the two don't belong even remotely close in the same class. This can be said to pretty much any DAP and desktop amp/DAC combo. What I like about my PONO is its smooth yet detailed sound that is pleasingly analog to my ears but without sounding too warm. Despite sharing the same genes if you will, the Codex was exceptionally smooth and the biggest difference between the two is in spatial space and cues that contributed to very realistic and holographic sound experience.  If you ever listened to a track where all the sound sources (voices, instruments, audience..etc)  sounds like it's coming from the right position with the right depth and width in relation to each other and within the confined venue space, this is what the Codex brought to my ears.
> 
> My PONO is my only experience with Ayre and from what I've read about them and their products, they do seem to have their own philosophical approach. I was told by the DF salesman that Ayre never discounts or goes on sale, and the Codex is the cheapest product they sell.  I must admit, I was tempted to pull out my credit card and suck up the $2K price tag (taxes included), but I'm not prepared nor willing to deal with my spouse's wrath.  In end, the Codex is definitely on my wish list and if two grand ever falls on my lap or finds its way to my bank account, my desktop end-game will finally come to an end (pun intended).


 

 Thanks for writing up your experience, @alpha421.  It sounds like it passed the test!  
  
 If I go, I'll probably bring my balanced HD 650 to audition.  And I think I'll follow your lead and bring along the pono player.


----------



## alpha421

Have fun. I assume you'll visit the Definitive Audio on Roosevelt. If you plan to purchase one, I was told that they have an unopen unit.


----------



## flatmap

alpha421 said:


> Have fun. I assume you'll visit the Definitive Audio on Roosevelt. If you plan to purchase one, I was told that they have an unopen unit.


 
  
 Right, Roosevelt is the closer store for me.  I won't go until after the holidays... and probably after the harsh financial light of January has subsided.


----------



## jude

​
NOTE:  If you can't see the embedded video above, please *CLICK HERE* to see the video.​  
*Produced by Joseph Cwik and Jude Mansilla*​  
 In this episode of _Head-Fi TV_, Alex Brinkman from Ayre Acoustics visits Head-Fi HQ to talk about the Ayre Acoustics Codex, their new desktop balanced DAC/amp/digital preamp. Ayre Acoustics is the company behind the outstanding Ayre QB9 DSD DAC, and is also behind the engineering of the Pono Player. The Codex is Ayre's their first foray into our world of premium personal audio under the Ayre Acoustics flag.
  
  
 Products mentioned in the video:

  

*Ayre Acoustics Codex* desktop headphone DAC, amplifier, and pre-amplifier
*Ayre Acoustics QB9 DSD *desktop DAC
*Ayre Acoustics MX-R Twenty* mono amplifier
*Cavalli Audio Liquid Carbon* desktop amplifier
*HiFIMAN HE1000* open, planar magnetic, over-ear headphone
*Sennheiser HD 800* open, over-ear headphone
  

  

 We will occasionally post Q&A episodes of Head-Fi TV.  If you want to submit any questions (or comments), you can do so via email to *tv@head-fi.org*.


----------



## audionewbi

Time for them to get into portable amp.


----------



## bmichels

Too bad that this device* can't run on Batteries*    It will have been a vert potent "transportable" solution !
  
 And why 2 x 3,5 mm jack for Balanced instead of the standard 4 pins XLR !! (or mini-XLR) ??


----------



## yage

bmichels said:


> Too bad that this device* can't run on Batteries*    It will have been a vert potent "transportable" solution !


 
  
 Get a Pono and listen to it in balanced mode. You won't get the full-on Codex experience, but it will be quite good.


----------



## sheldaze

bmichels said:


> Too bad that this device* can't run on Batteries*    It will have been a vert potent "transportable" solution !
> 
> And why 2 x 3,5 mm jack for Balanced instead of the standard 4 pins XLR !! (or mini-XLR) ??


 


yage said:


> Get a Pono and listen to it in balanced mode. You won't get the full-on Codex experience, but it will be quite good.


 
 I was actually at a meet with @yage yesterday, listening to the Pono and Codex. I think there is a legitimate reason the Codex needs an electrical outlet.
  
 Also, the 4-pin XLR is just a cable easily bought. He had one with the Codex, and I have one for my Pono. Easy peasy...plugs into any standard 4-pin XLR headphone.
  
 Last, it's actually kinda big. It was bigger than the Meier Audio Corda Rock and Grace Design m9xx. People commented that the Grace was only semi-portable. No such comments were made regarding the Codex. It is a significant wall-powered upgrade over the Pono.


----------



## Makiah S

sheldaze said:


> I was actually at a meet with @yage yesterday, listening to the Pono and Codex. I think there is a legitimate reason the Codex needs an electrical outlet.
> 
> Also, the 4-pin XLR is just a cable easily bought. He had one with the Codex, and I have one for my Pono. Easy peasy...plugs into any standard 4-pin XLR headphone.


 
  


bmichels said:


> Too bad that this device* can't run on Batteries*    It will have been a vert potent "transportable" solution !
> 
> And why 2 x 3,5 mm jack for Balanced instead of the standard 4 pins XLR !! (or mini-XLR) ??


 
  
  
 Ugh I'm there too, I think this has to do with Sony's Launch of the MDR Z7 which used dual 3.5mm in put, they an others  may be trying to push for a some what "simpler" balanced output, as the 4pin XLR is a little alien to consumers who aren't farmillar with quality audio products, having a dual 3.5mm balanced may make more sense to them 

 Still though I'll be skipping over this unit as I don't have any dual 3.5mm plugs :/ an the market has plenty of other balanced amps using the 4pin XLR output, though hopefully we will see maybe a variant with the 4pin XLR out


----------



## ayreacoustics

Hi Head-Fi'ers,
 Alex Brinkman from Ayre Acoustics chiming in here just to let you all know you can ask us any questions you like when it comes to the Codex. We'll be checking in on this thread from time to time, with no regularity or frequency, but just enough for you guys to get your questions answered. Thanks so much for your feedback and astute comments with regard to the Codex. We very earnestly developed this product to specifically enter the headphone world knowing how serious, passionate, and enthusiastic you all are about music. Many of you have heard or heard _of _our QB-9. We are grateful that the community of Head-Fi'ers have generally felt as positive about it as we have, and we're excited to finally be able to add on to what the QB-9 did with the Codex. We're also really grateful to be able to provide all of you with a way to finally plug a set of headphones directly into one of our products! Many of us here, including Charlie and Ariel have been fans of headphones for a long time and are really happy to have all of you out there. Your existence makes it possible for us to pursue our passion and love for music, so we don't take you for granted. It's because of you that we exist, not the other way around! And the same goes for the Codex. Without the headphone community, we know well that there would have been no reason for us to develop the product. So you have yourselves to thank for its existence at all.
 We here at Ayre are attempting to create a relationship with the headphone community through the Codex, thanks in advance for the positive interactions here on Head-Fi, we look forward to growing with you and for you.
  
 Thank you all very much!
 -Alex


----------



## Latitude94941

ayreacoustics said:


> Hi Head-Fi'ers,
> Alex Brinkman from Ayre Acoustics chiming in here just to let you all know you can ask us any questions you like when it comes to the Codex. We'll be checking in on this thread from time to time, with no regularity or frequency, but just enough for you guys to get your questions answered. Thanks so much for your feedback and astute comments with regard to the Codex. We very earnestly developed this product to specifically enter the headphone world knowing how serious, passionate, and enthusiastic you all are about music. Many of you have heard or heard _of_ our QB-9. We are grateful that the community of Head-Fi'ers have generally felt as positive about it as we have, and we're excited to finally be able to add on to what the QB-9 did with the Codex. We're also really grateful to be able to provide all of you with a way to finally plug a set of headphones directly into one of our products! Many of us here, including Charlie and Ariel have been fans of headphones for a long time and are really happy to have all of you out there. Your existence makes it possible for us to pursue our passion and love for music, so we don't take you for granted. It's because of you that we exist, not the other way around! And the same goes for the Codex. Without the headphone community, we know well that there would have been no reason for us to develop the product. So you have yourselves to thank for its existence at all.
> We here at Ayre are attempting to create a relationship with the headphone community through the Codex, thanks in advance for the positive interactions here on Head-Fi, we look forward to growing with you and for you.
> 
> ...




Hi, Alex,

I'll be the first victim.

I've been extremely happy with the Codex. But due to the lack of a remote volume control, I need a dithered software volume control to use in combination with Roon.

Roon has recently integrated HQ Player, so I'm considering that option. Could you please ask Charlie and Ariel their opinion about the best digital filtering options and output settings in HQP to use with the Codex? How do they feel about applying digital filters in the computer before sending the file to the Codex? In terms of output settings with HQ Player, is there a "sweet spot" for the Codex (i.e. DSD 128 vs PCM 384)?

A short guide to HQP is here: http://soundgalleries.com/articles/hqplayer/

I realize that this may be like asking a chef how much salt or pepper they'd recommend adding to a dish they've just cooked, but would be very interested to get their opinion.

Thanks in advance.


----------



## occamsrazor

Audiostream review:

http://www.audiostream.com/content/ayre-acoustics-codex-usb-dac-headphone-amp-digital-preamp

Looks very nice. I'm interested in the Codex for use as a DAC/Pre. Wondering how this would compare to the Benchmark DAC2 HGC.....

@Alex from Ayre (or anyone with the device) - Could you possibly answer a couple technical questions?

- Do the balanced and single-ended outputs operate simultaneously?
- Does USB HID volume control work i.e. can you control the volume of the Codex from computer software such as iTunes, Audirvana, etc via USB?


----------



## bmoura

ayreacoustics said:


> Hi Head-Fi'ers,
> Alex Brinkman from Ayre Acoustics chiming in here just to let you all know you can ask us any questions you like when it comes to the Codex. We'll be checking in on this thread from time to time, with no regularity or frequency, but just enough for you guys to get your questions answered. Thanks so much for your feedback and astute comments with regard to the Codex. We very earnestly developed this product to specifically enter the headphone world knowing how serious, passionate, and enthusiastic you all are about music. Many of you have heard or heard _of _our QB-9. We are grateful that the community of Head-Fi'ers have generally felt as positive about it as we have, and we're excited to finally be able to add on to what the QB-9 did with the Codex. We're also really grateful to be able to provide all of you with a way to finally plug a set of headphones directly into one of our products! Many of us here, including Charlie and Ariel have been fans of headphones for a long time and are really happy to have all of you out there. Your existence makes it possible for us to pursue our passion and love for music, so we don't take you for granted. It's because of you that we exist, not the other way around! And the same goes for the Codex. Without the headphone community, we know well that there would have been no reason for us to develop the product. So you have yourselves to thank for its existence at all.
> We here at Ayre are attempting to create a relationship with the headphone community through the Codex, thanks in advance for the positive interactions here on Head-Fi, we look forward to growing with you and for you.
> 
> ...


 

 The Codex looks very interesting.  Any chance that DSD 256 playback would be added to the Codex as an upgrade?  Would like to have a unit that plays all of my DSD and FLAC files with headphones.


----------



## Matt-Helm

ayreacoustics said:


> Hi Head-Fi'ers,
> Alex Brinkman from Ayre Acoustics chiming in here just to let you all know you can ask us any questions you like when it comes to the Codex. We'll be checking in on this thread from time to time, with no regularity or frequency, but just enough for you guys to get your questions answered. Thanks so much for your feedback and astute comments with regard to the Codex. We very earnestly developed this product to specifically enter the headphone world knowing how serious, passionate, and enthusiastic you all are about music. Many of you have heard or heard _of _our QB-9. We are grateful that the community of Head-Fi'ers have generally felt as positive about it as we have, and we're excited to finally be able to add on to what the QB-9 did with the Codex. We're also really grateful to be able to provide all of you with a way to finally plug a set of headphones directly into one of our products! Many of us here, including Charlie and Ariel have been fans of headphones for a long time and are really happy to have all of you out there. Your existence makes it possible for us to pursue our passion and love for music, so we don't take you for granted. It's because of you that we exist, not the other way around! And the same goes for the Codex. Without the headphone community, we know well that there would have been no reason for us to develop the product. So you have yourselves to thank for its existence at all.
> We here at Ayre are attempting to create a relationship with the headphone community through the Codex, thanks in advance for the positive interactions here on Head-Fi, we look forward to growing with you and for you.
> 
> ...


 

  I just picked up a demo unit today! Not being able to control the volume from the USB driver control panel is a problem. Any work around?
  
 Thanks!


----------



## occamsrazor

matt-helm said:


> I just picked up a demo unit today! Not being able to control the volume from the USB driver control panel is a problem. Any work around?
> 
> Thanks!


 
  
 What OS and software are you using out of interest? If you can't control the volume from a computer via USB that would be a major downer for me....


----------



## Matt-Helm

occamsrazor said:


> What OS and software are you using out of interest? If you can't control the volume from a computer via USB that would be a major downer for me....


 

 ​I'm using Windows 10. JRiver Media Center 21.0.23
  
 Ayre has a Windows USB driver that you need to install. The driver was installed in Windows 7 compatibility mode. No Windows 10 native support.
  
 I've tried everything I can think of to control the volume via software. No luck.
  
 On the flip side.. The Codex really makes my HD800's come to life! I'm coming from a Marantz HD-DAC1 and i'm blown away by the difference.


----------



## Matt-Helm

There's a way to set JRiver to use "internal volume" to do it. So yes, there's a way to control the volume via software. It's odd because nothing in the Windows 10 volume mixer works... even setting the volume mixer to Speakers  (Ayre USB Interface Audio).


----------



## ayreacoustics

latitude94941 said:


> Hi, Alex,
> 
> I'll be the first victim.
> 
> ...


 

 Hi Latitude,
  
 I am so happy to hear you've been enjoying your Codex!
  
 First, I'd like to address your need for a volume control. I totally get that. When developing the Codex, we talked about the possibility of including remote functionality, but decided to save that money in the hopes of keeping the price as low as possible. We also mainly saw the Codex as a desktop product in the very literal sense, meaning that we envisioned you, the user sitting less than two feet from the knob, thinking that would keep you from needing a remote. But in the end, the Codex has become a far more versatile piece, and as such, its distance from the user is variable. Even Charlie just mentioned the other day that he would like a remote for his Codex at home, so future products may certainly include that function.
  
 I haven't actually tried HQPlayer yet, though we have used everything else under the sun, from BitPerfect, to Amarra, to Audirvana, JRiver, etc. What we always recommend for any software is that it present our DACs with the native rate and bit depth. We have developed some great digital filters, with which we are quite happy. When you hear an Ayre DAC and like it, our filters have a good bit to do with that. So to use your metaphor of salt on a chef's dish he's just presented to you at your table, I think it would be closer to the truth to say you walked into a restaurant with a can of pre-cooked chicken and handed it to the chef, hoping that he could use that as an ingredient for the entree instead of the farm-raised freshly butchered chicken he was planning on using in the first place. We'd rather use good chicken in our DACs , that way your music will taste a lot better, to thoroughly and badly mix the metaphor you so eloquently presented.
 In terms of the question you asked regarding the sweet spot, I would pay far more attention to the provenance and pedigree of the original recording than to the format. Be it PCM or DSD, typically the reason you enjoy the recording or not, has more to do with the talent and effort behind the recording process in the studio. So my answer is there is no sweet spot in the Codex, only in the recordings themselves. I think if you look through your music collection, you'll find this to be the case.
  
 Now, in terms of your need to use another volume control before the Codex, I would recommend against that, if it's practical. The reason for this is that we use a 32-bit digital volume control on the Codex. It's the first time we've ever used a digital volume control and the reason for this is that through out the range on the dial, even at its lowest setting, you will lose 8 bits, at most. This means you will always be getting at least 24 bits throughout your listening range. This will likely not be the case with the volume control on your computer. At a certain point losing bits may become audible and decrease the quality of playback. Again, you'd be getting bad chicken.
  
 I hope that answers your questions thoroughly enough. Again, thanks for having so much fun with the Codex!
 -Alex


----------



## ayreacoustics

occamsrazor said:


> Audiostream review:
> 
> http://www.audiostream.com/content/ayre-acoustics-codex-usb-dac-headphone-amp-digital-preamp
> 
> ...


 

 Hi Occamsrazor,
  
 First, thanks for posting the audiostream.com review, Steve Plaskin did a great job of writing about the Codex.
  
 The balanced and single-ended outputs on the back of the unit do work simultaneously, BUT if you have both plugged in and playing at the same time, the XLR outputs will no longer be operating in balanced mode. Performance will suffer slightly. So I'll leave that up to you in terms of whether you want to use both at the same time.
  
 You cannot control the Codex's volume from other software and you probably shouldn't since you'd be throwing bits away before your digital signal ever got to the Codex. I mentioned this in my response to Latitude's question on the same subject. Our digital volume control will be better in terms of performance since you want to get as much of the original stream into the Codex as possible.


----------



## ayreacoustics

bmoura said:


> The Codex looks very interesting.  Any chance that DSD 256 playback would be added to the Codex as an upgrade?  Would like to have a unit that plays all of my DSD and FLAC files with headphones.


 

 Hi bmoura,
 At this time (we have a very small engineering team), we don't currently have any plans to include DSD 256 for the Codex. We are in the middle of developing our next product right now and any time spent away from that would cost us dearly in terms of its release.
 That's not to say we'll never include that, but for now it's not on the calendar.
 Thanks for your interest in the Codex!
 -Alex


----------



## occamsrazor

> You cannot control the Codex's volume from other software and you probably shouldn't since you'd be throwing bits away before your digital signal ever got to the Codex. I mentioned this in my response to Latitude's question on the same subject. Our digital volume control will be better in terms of performance since you want to get as much of the original stream into the Codex as possible.


 
  
 Thanks for your reply, and a happy new year  Maybe I'm not using the right terminology, I wasn't suggesting the software itself produces variable volume. But rather the software controls the volume _of the DAC_. For example with my Audiolab MDAC, when using with Audirvana, the software sends full volume/unmodified to the DAC all the time, but altering the software volume control slider sends commands to the DAC over USB to change the variable output _of the DAC itself_ - as seen by the volume on the DAC display. Does that make sense? Does the Codex do this? I think it's something to do with USB HID protocol....


----------



## branislav

Hello Ayre
  
 I have Codex at home for trial and I have couple of questions.
  
 1. Even though mentioned as superior application with codex, I don't see balanced headphone jack. I see few holes for headphones in the front but nothing for balanced. In the back I see balanced analog outputs, but surely they are not for headphones, right?
  
 2. Right now sound is coming both from speakers and headphones. I may use Codex for both headphones and computer speakers and I wonder how much the performance suffer if I have sound coming from speakers (i can turn down the sound) and headphones. Should I just unplug the interconnects for better performance?
  
 3. The number that's lit up in the front...what is it?  I can see numbers change based on volume but then it changes to something else...right now it shows 384? What is it?
  
 4. In the front 1/R and 2/L for 3.5 mm jacks...what are those about?
  
 Thank you


----------



## yage

branislav said:


> Hello Ayre
> 
> I have Codex at home for trial and I have couple of questions.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Not an Ayre rep, but I can answer some of your questions.
  
 The 1/R and 2/L 3.5 mm jacks are the balanced connection - just like on the Pono. You'll probably need an adapter for your headphones in order to enable balanced operation.
  
 The number changes to sampling frequency after the volume level number disappears.
  
 Plugging in headphones automatically switches the Codex out of DAC mode (if selected) and enables the volume control. You should unplug your headphones if you want to drive your speaker-based setup. (See p.13 in the manual - https://www.ayre.com/manuals/Ayre_Codex_Manual.pdf)


----------



## Latitude94941

ayreacoustics said:


> Hi Latitude,
> 
> I am so happy to hear you've been enjoying your Codex!
> 
> ...




Hi, Alex,

Thanks for your thorough response. I appreciate the decision to not include remote volume control to keep the cost down--but now that I actually own the Codex I do need a method for remote volume control. 

Interesting to hear that Charlie himself is also wishing for remote volume functionality. The Codex really sounds too good to listen to at a desk--it deserves an Eames lounge chair and glass of vintage wine.

Re "losing bits" when using a software digital volume control: The whole point of a dithered digital volume control (and the reason I'm considering the use of HQ Player to get one that works in tandem with Roon) is that it does not throw away bits of resolution when listening to Redbook files--it only throws away bits of noise.

Re upsampling: I've never done it before (I've always subscribed to the bit perfect file dogma) but the designer of HQP recommends upsampling when using the dithered volume function so that there is someplace far out of the audible band to "park" the dither noise. So it would be great if Charlie and Ariel could answer this question: if a Codex owner insisted on upsampling Redbook files for the reasons above, what would be the (technically) optimum format for the Codex: DSD 128, 384 PCM... or something lower?

I've read Charlie's previous comments re DSD, so I'd be particularly interested in hearing his technical take on converting PCM to DSD. My understanding is that the reason for doing this is that it then requires less filtering by the DAC.

Thanks again,

Ken


----------



## occamsrazor

latitude94941 said:


> Re "losing bits" when using a software digital volume control: The whole point of a dithered digital volume control (and the reason I'm considering the use of HQ Player to get one that works in tandem with Roon) is that it does not throw away bits of resolution when listening to Redbook files--it only throws away bits of noise.


 
  
 My understanding was if it responds to USB HID volume control, there's nothing that's being "thrown away". All that happens is the DAC responds to instructions via USB to increase/decrease its own volume control, kind of like a USB remote control.


----------



## Latitude94941

occamsrazor said:


> My understanding was if it responds to USB HID volume control, there's nothing that's being "thrown away". All that happens is the DAC responds to instructions via USB to increase/decrease its own volume control, kind of like a USB remote control.




Hi, Occamsrazor,

We're really talking about two different issues here. You're talking about the DAC chip itself reducing volume based on instructions via USB from the computer (as you note, some chips, such as the SABRE chips allow for this capability).

My understanding from talking to Ayre is that the Codex does not allow for this capability--which is why I'm looking to remotely control volume digitally via software.


----------



## occamsrazor

latitude94941 said:


> We're really talking about two different issues here. You're talking about the DAC chip itself reducing volume based on instructions via USB from the computer (as you note, some chips, such as the SABRE chips allow for this capability).
> 
> My understanding from talking to Ayre is that the Codex does not allow for this capability--which is why I'm looking to remotely control volume digitally via software.


 
  
 You sum up the situation well, thanks. Yes we are indeed talking about different things, albeit both relate to remotely controlling volume. As for "reducing volume based on instructions via USB from the computer" (as you describe it well), I really hope the Codex does support this - if not, it would pretty much be a dealbreaker for me. I only have experience with one DAC, the Audiolab MDAC, which does this, and I had assumed until now that all DACs with a USB connection did this - is that _not_ the case? What would be the reason not to implement this functionality?


----------



## Latitude94941

occamsrazor said:


> You sum up the situation well, thanks. Yes we are indeed talking about different things, albeit both relate to remotely controlling volume. As for "reducing volume based on instructions via USB from the computer" (as you describe it well), I really hope the Codex does support this - if not, it would pretty much be a dealbreaker for me. I only have experience with one DAC, the Audiolab MDAC, which does this, and I had assumed until now that all DACs with a USB connection did this - is that _not_ the case? What would be the reason not to implement this functionality?




Hi, Occamsrazor,

I had spoken to an Ayre rep about this and they told me that the Codex will not allow the computer to change the volume on the DAC chip. As to the reason why, we'll have to let Alex answer that, but I suspect that it's due to the Codex's rotary volume control already making use of the chip's variable volume function.

I didn't let this stop me from purchasing the Codex, and would advise you not to let it stop you either--it's a superb sounding DAC and HP amp. You can control the volume remotely without losing resolution with Redbook files by using a properly designed dithered volume control such as found in Amarra, HQP, Audirvana, Bitperfect, etc.


----------



## occamsrazor

latitude94941 said:


> I had spoken to an Ayre rep about this and they told me that the Codex will not allow the computer to change the volume on the DAC chip. As to the reason why, we'll have to let Alex answer that, but I suspect that it's due to the Codex's rotary volume control already making use of the chip's variable volume function.
> 
> I didn't let this stop me from purchasing the Codex, and would advise you not to let it stop you either--it's a superb sounding DAC and HP amp. You can control the volume remotely without losing resolution with Redbook files by using a properly designed dithered volume control such as found in Amarra, HQP, Audirvana, Bitperfect, etc.


 
  
 Thanks for the confirmation, it's helpful. That's a shame though. As for the rotary volume control already using the variable volume function, this explanation sounds unlikely to me as my Audiolab MDAC also has a similar rotary control and has no probem receiving volume commands via USB. But I've no idea really, beyond that...
  
 I'll keep thinking about the Codex, though I do find this missing functionality a downside. Am glad you are happy with yours, can I ask what other gear you are using it with? And what other DACs you have used and might be able to make comparisons with?


----------



## KmanChu

I will be receiving a Codex sometime next week most likely. I do wish that it had some sort of remote volume control, mostly just to try it in my main system. I don't mind getting up to adjust volume but my wife would nix it. Ultimately this isn't how I intend to use it though, it will be on my desktop next to my computer as Ayre intended for it to be used.
  
 I doubt they will be able to introduce a USB software volume control. My understanding is that Ayre uses Gordon Randkin's streamlength USB drivers. This is still probably the best USB audio implementation and definitely simplifies it for the development team, but it also means they likely have limited capability to modify the software even if they wanted to.


----------



## occamsrazor

kmanchu said:


> I will be receiving a Codex sometime next week most likely. I do wish that it had some sort of remote volume control, mostly just to try it in my main system. I don't mind getting up to adjust volume but my wife would nix it. Ultimately this isn't how I intend to use it though, it will be on my desktop next to my computer as Ayre intended for it to be used.
> 
> I doubt they will be able to introduce a USB software volume control. My understanding is that Ayre uses Gordon Randkin's streamlength USB drivers. This is still probably the best USB audio implementation and definitely simplifies it for the development team, but it also means they likely have limited capability to modify the software even if they wanted to.


 
  
 For Windows maybe, but for Mac OSX I believe there are no additional 3rd party drivers used, USB 2.0 connections use system-native drivers.
 https://www.ayre.com/usb-dac-apple.htm


----------



## DoctaCosmos

are there any specifications available on the codex aside from what is shown on their website?  Frequency response, distortion, etc....
 im interested in this combo as i'm a big fan of Stereophile magazine and Ayre products always make their A+ recommended not only due to their measurements but musicality.  
 Im currently considering this or the Eddy Current Black Widow atm. also has anyone been in any meet threads which people


----------



## sheldaze

doctacosmos said:


> are there any specifications available on the codex aside from what is shown on their website?  Frequency response, distortion, etc....
> im interested in this combo as i'm a big fan of Stereophile magazine and Ayre products always make their A+ recommended not only due to their measurements but musicality.
> Im currently considering this or the Eddy Current Black Widow atm. also has anyone been in any meet threads which people


 
 Just wanted to be sure - you know that Codex is a DAC or AMP/DAC. The inputs are limited to USB and Optical. It cannot be operated as an amplifier-only because it has no RCA/XLR input.
  
 The Black Widow is an amplifier-only. It has RCA input.
  
 ::
  
 I know of no upcoming meets where you can audition these. We have had Ayre at our local meets, but only on Sundays (our next meet is on a Saturday, and the dealer keeps the Ayre at his shop). We are trying to get Black Widow, however it is not yet in production. (And looking more closely at the map, DC is over 5 hours away, so...even if we had these, it would be a heckuva drive.)


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## DoctaCosmos

im aware of exactly what the Codex is.  ATM i have a decent dac with a very low output impedance so should match well with the BW if i go that route. However it is not balanced and i'd really like to give that route a go if i could and the fact that it doubles as a pre-amp and dac that is more feature full than my dac is a big plus.  As well, Im sure theres some of that pairing magic going on in there that will be harder to get than with the BW.  Speaking of pairing magic, i  wouldn't mind someday (when im out of dept and old) going with some ayre power amps for my speakers.  
    As far as tastes goes, i'm a big fan of dynamic drivers. I appreciate the sound from planars but i generally don't like the way they present the music compared to a dynamic driver, done right anyways.  That being said, i'm looking for an endgame setup capable of playing the fluctuation game of  impedance vs frequency dynamics bring to the table. What i've read about the BW is that it has a solid state sound with a somewhat tube like midrange.  Sounds too good to be true and if it werent for Tyll's comment "just plain musical," when talking about the codex, i probably wouldn't be here right now. Hoping to pair this with an HD800 S eventually but i really do love headphones so i'm sure i'll have other phones to plug into.


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## DoctaCosmos

i see you have a liquid carbon!  so jealous.  i've been a huge fan of cavalli amps. My first taste was a liquid gold with lc3 non fazor, abyss and he-6.  i was blown away by the musicality.  since then i've heard the liquid crimson and liquid glass.  I know how good tubes can sound but i'm truly don't want to go there or i'd go with a liquid glass.  How's the liquid carbon with that hd800?


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## Latitude94941

doctacosmos said:


> However it is not balanced and i'd really like to give that route a go if i could and the fact that it doubles as a pre-amp and dac that is more feature full than my dac is a big plus.




Re the balanced aspect of the Codex: I was not sure about what to expect. I had been perfectly happy using the Codex in non-balanced mode with my Ultrasone Signature Pros, but had them converted for balanced operation. I just got them back the other day and am still breaking in the cable, but found a significant step forward in sound quality. I am now a balanced believer (at least with the the Codex).


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## DoctaCosmos

i bet that's an absolutely awesome combination! Not sure how resolving a headphone that ultrasone is but i bet that s-logic is pretty neat and balancing it probably makes it that much better.  Of all people who could truly appreciate that setup it'd be me.  I'm all about imaging. Obviously there's more to a headphone than that and there's plenty more i appreciate too but nice imaging is good stuff


----------



## yage

doctacosmos said:


> What i've read about the BW is that it has a solid state sound with a somewhat tube like midrange.  Sounds too good to be true and if it werent for Tyll's comment "just plain musical," when talking about the codex, i probably wouldn't be here right now. Hoping to pair this with an HD800 S eventually but i really do love headphones so i'm sure i'll have other phones to plug into.


 
  
 If a musical midrange is what you're after, I think the Codex fits the bill as an endgame solution. I've had two long auditions with the Codex and I was constantly amazed at how much information it could pull out of a recording and the stunning realism with which it portrayed vocals. It really is something special through the single-ended output, and especially so when listening to it balanced.
  
 I've not heard the Black Widow, but I'm interested in it too. However, when you consider that it already costs $1295 and pairing it with a DAC to match the performance you get out of the Codex might add more than $1k to the cost, I feel the Codex is a great value to boot.


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## austinpop

I am in the market for a DAC and amp to go between my Auralic Aries Mini streamer and my Sennheiser HD800, and I must say I am really intrigued by the Codex. I am expecting it to be a significant improvement over my current Benchmark DAC1 HDR.

Finding one to audition is another matter though! Plus, the field is really crowded. In an ideal world I'd be able to audition the Ayre Codex, the Mytek Brooklyn, Grace m920, Simaudio Moon 230HAD, Oppo HA-1, and the list goes on.

Other than spend mega bucks to buy all of these on 30-day trials, I'm going to rely on Head-if meets and hope to try these out.

The good news is that my current Benchmark setup is no slouch, and sounds very good, despite the scorn the DAC1 gets on head-fi.


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## DoctaCosmos

Well as I'm no audio producer, musical Surely fits my bill. One thing I might as well just get out in the open is that I'm hoping my setup with the hd800 will work good for electronic music too. I'm sure it can work but ideally, I'd want the sound to be a little thicker which in the video with jude, he says it does just that. So maybe, just maybe the hd800 S with the Codex might be a true all a rounder in my book.


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## sheldaze

doctacosmos said:


> i see you have a liquid carbon!  so jealous.  i've been a huge fan of cavalli amps. My first taste was a liquid gold with lc3 non fazor, abyss and he-6.  i was blown away by the musicality.  since then i've heard the liquid crimson and liquid glass.  I know how good tubes can sound but i'm truly don't want to go there or i'd go with a liquid glass.  How's the liquid carbon with that hd800?


 
 HD800 and Liquid Carbon is the best I've had at home. Until I hear MicroZOTL or Black Widow, that's my end game.
  
 However I'll 2nd @yage in that the Codex is something quite special. If you add the cost of my DAC with LC, you're at the Codex cost. You've exceeded it going to ZOTL or BW. I did not have my HD800 at the time I heard the Codex - wish I had. From what I could discern, it is something quite special.


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## DoctaCosmos

Well liquid carbon is unobtainium so unfortunately for me and my wallet, that's out of the question. I wouldn't even think twice about going that route. I would be able to get an he1000 on top of it because of the Lc price.


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## ejong7

doctacosmos said:


> Well liquid carbon is unobtainium so unfortunately for me and my wallet, that's out of the question. I wouldn't even think twice about going that route. I would be able to get an he1000 on top of it because of the Lc price.


 

 When he said LC I think he meant the Liquid Carbon not the Crimson? If I understood that incorrectly pardon me because I didnt really get it because I believe you meant that for the price of the LC you can get a pair of HE1000 which is true if you're referring to the Crimson. Carbon is unobtanium (fornow) anyways no further plans to produce a new batch (YET).
  
 Anyways sorry for going off topic.


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## DoctaCosmos

*edit


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## sheldaze

I concur with your dislike of planars, though my dislike is for the lower models - I do like the top of the line versions of them. Below that, I feel they're lacking something. While I like the less-than TOTL dynamic headphones (i.e. AKG and Grado are still interesting headphones at less than TOTL fidelity).
  
 I haven't heard the Asgard 2 - I'm still quite curious to hear it, based on how it compares favorably to amplifiers I've heard. But until one drops out the sky, I cannot justify the desire to just give it a listen.
  
 I was confused with regards to the HE1000 comment too - the Liquid Carbon are showing up for sale, though very rarely. Keep looking - good luck! Then tell me what you think of LC with your shiny new HE1K (sorry, I do that - I've been taught to spell out things at least once, then acronym soup). I'll tell you what I think of the HD800 and Codex, when I hear that pairing.


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## DoctaCosmos

.


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## DoctaCosmos

I've only heard the asgard on Planars and it dumps enough current to give them the body they need.


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## DoctaCosmos

So does anyone know the frequency response range for the combo? Is it the same for the dac/pre as the amplifier section


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## Latitude94941

One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet when comparing the Codex to DAC+Amp options is that you save money on an interconnect cable between DAC/Amp with the Codex. To get the sound quality of the Codex from separates, you'd need a high end interconnect. Also, there are obvious advantages to removing the extra interconnect cable and connectors from the signal chain.


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## yage

doctacosmos said:


> So does anyone know the frequency response range for the combo? Is it the same for the dac/pre as the amplifier section


 
  
 You'll probably have to wait for the Stereophile review if you want those types of specs.


----------



## yage

latitude94941 said:


> One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet when comparing the Codex to DAC+Amp options is that you save money on an interconnect cable between DAC/Amp with the Codex. To get the sound quality of the Codex from separates, you'd need a high end interconnect. Also, there are obvious advantages to removing the extra interconnect cable and connectors from the signal chain.


 
  
 This is true. If you compare to Schiit gear, you have the Mjolnir 2 and the Gungnir as your starting options for a fully balanced setup. That costs about $100 less than the Codex, though you have to add in the cost of the interconnect. If you move up to the Gungnir MB, then that exceeds the price of the Codex by a few hundred bucks. With all the talk of Schiit being a price / performance leader, especially for gear made in the USA, then I think Ayre has really hit a home run here. It's a fully balanced, no feedback, discrete design  with a linear power supply and made in the USA. The SE output is just as good as the balanced outs (something that would be hard to claim for the Liquid Carbon) and is slightly more versatile with the preamp functionality.
  
 I've got an all-Ayre system for my speaker setup (AX-5 Twenty + C-5xeMP) and I'm really trying to resist getting the Codex, but I'm losing more and more willpower as I type...


----------



## Latitude94941

yage said:


> This is true. If you compare to Schiit gear, you have the Mjolnir 2 and the Gungnir as your starting options for a fully balanced setup. That costs about $100 less than the Codex, though you have to add in the cost of the interconnect. If you move up to the Gungnir MB, then that exceeds the price of the Codex by a few hundred bucks. With all the talk of Schiit being a price / performance leader, especially for gear made in the USA, then I think Ayre has really hit a home run here. It's a fully balanced, no feedback, discrete design  with a linear power supply and made in the USA. The SE output is just as good as the balanced outs (something that would be hard to claim for the Liquid Carbon) and is slightly more versatile with the preamp functionality.
> 
> I've got an all-Ayre system for my speaker setup (AX-5 Twenty + C-5xeMP) and I'm really trying to resist getting the Codex, but I'm losing more and more willpower as I type...




Hi, Yage,

I'm not trying to further erode your willpower, but I have to say that the Codex is even better in balanced mode. I was skeptical going in, and was very happy with it in SE mode, but when I went to balanced mode sound quality took a significant step forward.


----------



## yage

latitude94941 said:


> Hi, Yage,
> 
> I'm not trying to further erode your willpower, but I have to say that the Codex is even better in balanced mode. I was skeptical going in, and was very happy with it in SE mode, but when I went to balanced mode sound quality took a significant step forward.


 

 Yes, I agree - I've listened to the Codex in balanced mode through my HD 600's. I was really bowled over by what I heard. Plugging in my ER-4S single-ended, though, was just as enjoyable. If I do get the Codex, I'm going to have to mod them to try the balanced output, but for now I'd be happy as-is.


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## DoctaCosmos

Mmmmmmm ax-5 twenty. Why would I have to waot for measurements from stereophile?
 Just lookimg for a basic frequency response range. Mainly and simply how low does it go. I won't even consider it if it only goes down to 20. I doubt thats the case but what if, ya know. Pretty much every amp ive ever looked into, the manufacturer posts these specs.


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## DoctaCosmos

As far as saving money on the interconnects goes, the balanced cable for whatever headphone is going to cost you ,
even more id bet.


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## Latitude94941

doctacosmos said:


> I won't even consider it if it only goes down to 20.




May I ask why?


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## DoctaCosmos

A reference system shouldn't only go down to only 20 imo.


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## jrfmd

my system: itunes uncompressed on macbook pro playing apple uncompressed cd copies through optical coupling to codex -->cardas balanced-->HD800
 I compare it to exact same CDs played through my regular system (which has  30" + 24"woofer)
  
 the headphone sings as good or better than my room system--most unexpected for me
 I get same impact from bass (to my head not my body) so 20 cycle response is a non-issue
 same SE triode sound (I will use the iTunes equalizer where necessary)(( btw I can't hear any degradation of sound quality using it))
 I probably can be trusted: I have been a high fi fanatic for 30 yrs and always had state of the art stuff
 I strongly recommend
  
 Jeffrey R Fischman


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## KmanChu

I am using a codex now. It replaced another Ayre dac, the QB-9DSD (a current product that retails over $3k.) The Codex sounds better to me than the previous product. I'd say it offers similar resolution but it seems more musical and more "fun". Right now I'm using it just as a dac into my headphone amp as I am awaiting an adapter to connect balanced to the dual 3.5 jacks. I haven't tried the SE jack but will tonight. The Codex is very impressive out of the gate, but I was told that it needs at least 600 hrs to fully play in which I haven't approached yet. So far I give it two thumbs way up and think it is worth its money just as a dac. If the headphone stage is good enough to make me give up my dedicated headphone amp (and I am suspicious it will) then it will be a phenomenal deal.


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## schneller

yage said:


> Yes, I agree - I've listened to the Codex in balanced mode through my HD 600's. I was really bowled over by what I heard. Plugging in my ER-4S single-ended, though, was just as enjoyable. If I do get the Codex, I'm going to have to mod them to try the balanced output, but for now I'd be happy as-is.


 
 Hi there Yage: any comments on Codex vs. Yiggy?


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## DoctaCosmos

@jrfmd do you use optical because the codex won't work with lightning connector? Also I read or heard so!ewjere that the best response from the codex was from utilizing the USBportion as the signal to noise rastio will be !umuch better this way . Also, I had a phone call with ayre representative on the phone and he said that the codex should go down to 5 hz. When you say same impact as your speakers to what frequencies is it you're listening to because nyou didn't really give a reference, just said same slam.
@kmanchu durimg the interview, alex brinkman said 300hours. However, from what ive read, is that he thinks its ridiculous people think dacs need burn in and has openly voiced his opinion on the matter and made some people mad at him. By him saying around the 300 hour mark you'll level up like on a video game, it was more of an inside joke to which he was burning his skeptics


----------



## yage

schneller said:


> Hi there Yage: any comments on Codex vs. Yiggy?


 

 Ha! That's a loaded question! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 I'll offer up this, though - the Gumby reminded me a lot of how the Codex sounds and the Yggy reminded me of my Ayre C-5xeMP. Of course, when you get both we can test drive them in my setup at home.


----------



## mink70

So can we now safely conclude that the Codex uses the Sabre ES9018, not the mobile version found in the Pono Player?


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## yage

The Codex uses the same DAC as in the PonoPlayer - ESS 9018K2M.
  
 http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/axpona-2015-ayre-acoustics-codex-headphone-ampdac#cu6FRA51khiIi0UK.97


----------



## mink70

yage said:


> The Codex uses the same DAC as in the PonoPlayer - ESS 9018K2M.
> 
> http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/axpona-2015-ayre-acoustics-codex-headphone-ampdac#cu6FRA51khiIi0UK.97


 
 Hmm yage, are you sure? That article is from April. 
  
 The Codex lit on the Ayre website says it's the ES9018: https://www.ayre.com/literature/Ayre_Codex_Lit.pdf
  
 So do the dealer ads. 
  
 Curious to find out.


----------



## yage

mink70 said:


> Hmm yage, are you sure? That article is from April.
> 
> The Codex lit on the Ayre website says it's the ES9018: https://www.ayre.com/literature/Ayre_Codex_Lit.pdf
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hey, you're right. I'd be curious too... Maybe Alex is monitoring the thread and will chime in.


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## mink70

yage said:


> Hey, you're right. I'd be curious too... Maybe Alex is monitoring the thread and will chime in.


 
 Hey Alex Brinkman, if you're watching, could you weigh in?


----------



## L8MDL

Curious as to why anyone questions Ayre literature. Surely they know what chip they used!


----------



## mink70

l8mdl said:


> Curious as to why anyone questions Ayre literature. Surely they know what chip they used!


 In this case, though, there's some legitimate confusion. Tyll, Darko and Alex Brinkman reported that the Codex uses the mobile chip in the Pono Player, so there's that. Of course it's not the end of the world either way, but as I own the Pono and am very close to buying a Codex, it seems a useful thing to know.


----------



## DoctaCosmos

So has anyone compared the codex to anything? Would it be considered a value against similar priced combos?


----------



## KmanChu

doctacosmos said:


> So has anyone compared the codex to anything? Would it be considered a value against similar priced combos?


 
 I haven't compared it directly, but I used to own a BMC PureDAC. Which I was using with my current amplifier and headphones. The PureDAC is a good dac, very neutral and clear, and it has a very good balanced headphone stage. I was using it with my current tube amp and direct from its balanced output. I ultimately sold that dac because I found it a bit sterile and clinical sounding, and it just wasn't doing it for me. When I did listen to it I found it far more enjoyable to listen with the tube amp than direct from the headphone output. The Codex is far more enjoyable for my taste. I am currently listening to the Codex balanced headphone outs and comparing to my tube amp and the character is far more similar. Ayre manages to voice their components in a way that has a lot of tube-ish character and this really shines through when listening to the Codex.  
  
 The only other dac in my house right now is my NAD M51. I will bring it over to the headphone rig and do some listening comparisons with it this weekend. My suspicion is that it's not going to be even close which I prefer.


----------



## mink70

Any more impressions from folks who have had a chance to spend some time with the Codex?


----------



## Matt-Helm

I went from a Marantz HD-DAC1 w/ Audioquest Nighthawks to the Codex + HD800 + Balanced cable. HUGE DIFFERENCE.
  
 Truly a pleasure to listen to.


----------



## mink70

matt-helm said:


> I went from a Marantz HD-DAC1 w/ Audioquest Nighthawks to the Codex + HD800 + Balanced cable. HUGE DIFFERENCE.
> 
> Truly a pleasure to listen to.


 
 Thanks. Can you say a little about the DAC section and the difference between the Marantz and the Codex?


----------



## jrfmd

I used the optical because the usb didn't work after 1 day (Ayre has it in for repair/replacement now)
  
 What i was listening to classical music, on all works but beethovens 9th, at the end of movement 4 ( where there is a huge drum used i am told is a 20/sec tone) there is no loss of tone (double basses are equal on both). With the 20 cycle drum I can feel the difference but that is a full body impact vs an ear-only impact. I can still "hear" the tone but the impact is different
  
 most music doesn't use an instrument with such a low primary frequency, I cant think of anything else that does.
  
 Jeff


----------



## mink70

Well, bought a Codex this weekend. Lots of warnings about 300 hour break in from the dealer. Sounded incredible after 10 hours, but a little wooly. After 25 hours or so, the sound became more clear but also more plasticky and glassy, i.e. more typically digital. So a step back for now. Can anyone comment on break in with the Codex?


----------



## austinpop

Very interesting. Please keep us posted about how the sonics change as you continue to break it in.
  
 Can you tell us the rest of the chain: source(s) and headphones?


----------



## DoctaCosmos

I heard the codex this w3weekend and left very disappointed. Before I go any further I have to say that it was only being ran single ended. I suggest to the guy who had beta test it that they should terminate a cable for it to run balanced. I figured for some one who glamours in the title "beta tester" he'd hold a little more respect for it and knowledge that it simply should have been running balanced. He told me that aside from the Orpheus, sennheiser was coming out with a replacement for the hd800 and that it wasn't in production anymore. I told him he was talking about the hd800S and that it had already been released and sennheiser still sells the original. He insisted it wasnt what he was talking about and that we wasnt going to waste his time terminating a cable ifmthe cable ends were goimg to chamge (what about an xlr to pono style adapter}He had the typical hifistore snob attitude and i wouldn't have put it past him to have his boyfriend come to the store and yell at me if I'd said what I wanted to say to him. This was after my testing and it in no way males sense to ccarry over a grudge from that situation onto what really matters, the sound of the codex.
First things first, it did rid the 800 of its pesky peaks and added some good weight to the bottom end. The sound was very soft and wooly throughoutjust as ssomeone just recently suggest. The soundstage for the 800 should not have been so weak and there was a noticeable lack of air for an 800.
Now i know that balanced would have helped it immensly but it could still tell that it just wasn't that musical. Admittedly, the day after I went to a meet and realized that I'm a hybrid tube kind of guy. Solid state, solid state, solid state solid state was all I'd heard at the beginning. Admittedly some of them were pretty good but it wasn't till id moved into gear with little glass thingys that I started feeling the music. Some of the really tubey signature stuff was pretty good but a bit too much for me. The hybrids seemed just right. 
One last thing is that I heard a pono sourcing a microztl amp that was powering an he1000 and it was wonderful. So I'm thinking the 800 is just very revealing of the 9018 chips attributes which seems kind of soft and then mixed with single ended power from a solid state foundation that I found isn't my thing anymore is what led to a bad experience. maybe runnimg it balanced as a source only wpuld be amazing woth the roght setup


----------



## DoctaCosmos

Edit* typo meant to put girlfriend . don't want it to seem like i was profiling someone


----------



## mink70

austinpop said:


> Very interesting. Please keep us posted about how the sonics change as you continue to break it in.
> 
> Can you tell us the rest of the chain: source(s) and headphones?


 
 I've been listening to the Codex through a Senn HD650 terminated with a Cardas 4-pin XLR balanced cable and Cardas XLR-to-Pono adapter. Also listening through speakers: Codex > Shindo Aurieges > Shindo Montille >  Tannoy Arden. Cables by Wireworld and Auditorium 23.


----------



## KmanChu

So I am 2 weeks in with a Codex now, to build further on my previous comments...
  
 1.) Purely as a dac it is better than the Qb-9DSD. This is a big statement, because the QB-9DSD is a very good dac. I preferred the QB-9DSD to the Auralic Vega, BMC PureDAC, and NAD M51. So take that for what it's worth, one dude's opinion. When you run SE RCAs out of the back in DAC mode the dac continues to run "Balanced" (the LED on the front next to the "Balanced" label stays lit) and the sound is really excellent into my hybrid tube amp (see next point for why this is significant.) 
  
 2.) There is a tremendous difference in driving headphones between balanced and SE mode, at least with LCD-3s. I wouldn't expect the difference to be quite so profound but it is almost like listening to two different setups. SE the sound was congested and quite disappointing. If you plug in an SE headphone the "Balanced" LED goes out and some functional changes are made to run in some highly compromised way. They obviously did this so that two separate sets of headphones could run from the dual 3.5mm jacks in shared mode. They would have been far better off to just run off of a single leg of the balanced configuration and not change whatever they changed. I can see someone listening with an SE headphone and being disappointed. 
  
 3.) I still like the sound of my tube amp better than the headphone stage. This is honestly what I expected, although I had hoped otherwise. My amp is a very good tube-hybrid amp that originally sold for the same price as the Codex. The Codex is very musical, but it still doesn't have the magic that tubes have. The tubes still have the liquid, immersive sound that is easier to get lost in. The Ayre's headphone output, however, might be more revealing of very low-level textures. In vocals fricatives stick out a bit more clearly with the Ayre's output. It is still really good and might be more accurate, but that doesn't mean I will like it better. Perhaps it is just the synergy of my amp with my headphones (the RWA balanced headphone stage was designed/voiced using Audeze headphones.) I have always been a sucker for tubes, so it could just be my preferences. I think my amp is a bit more dynamic and the bass is more filled out.
  
 My judgement (so far) is that the Codex was designed, first and foremost, to be a really good dac with a fully balanced signal path that took advantage of their diamond output configuration. It seems the design was centered around optimizing the "DAC" mode. From there, I think they decided to use the same hardware but run it with higher bias or with other compromises to drive headphones. It does this very well, but the hardware is ultimately in a compromised mode compared to dac mode. I really want to like the sound from the Codex headphone jacks well enough to let me part with my amp, but so far I don't think that will happen. Maybe by 300 hours...


----------



## jrfmd

I agree about the balanced output vs single ended--loss of dynamics in single ended removes the magic
 also cables and headsets obviously make a difference: (my findings were with the HD800, the usb they send with the codex, audioquest forest optical cable and cardas balanced cable to the earphones.
  
 it sounded good when I used the above setup at about 100 hours use
  
 wooly bass doesn't occur in my setup unless I increase the 30-120 area too much
  
 although I find it as engaging as my tube amp to loudspeakers setup, it doesn't mean you should agree with me--I believe it is a very personal aspect of the sound that changes from person to person and (speaking for myself) from time to time depending on my mood or whether I'm hungry or not
  
 Jeff


----------



## Chuckjones242

Have had my codex for close to two weeks now... here's some of my gripes (plenty of praise is out there right now).  I'm probably going to return it this week.
  
 Biggest.  For a system that's primarily focused on the DAC, the lack of inputs are just unforgivable.  I get that a large portion of the audiophile audience uses USB, but that seems to be all the Codex is geared towards.  With Optical being there so people with optical audio cards can also use it.  I don't / won't use a PC / Mac as the media player - the experience is awful for me, I like to lay down in the dark and zone out.  With the AK120 as my player, or maybe my iPad / Tidal / Spotify to find new music I might buy.
  
 I had assumed, and was told by the dealer that AK would of course work, optical is optical right?  Well no it's not.  To my chagrin the AK player will not work with it at all.  How can this be??  
  
 I called support and was told that they didn't know and would ask engineering.  After two days I've not gotten a return call yet, and since I've yet to get it to work, I'm going to assume I'm hosed.  
  
 And then I came to discover that the apple camera adapter that works with USB isn't compatible either.  "Not enough power".  Hosed again, so much for Discovr'ing music on my iPad.
  
 I've tried my Surface 3 and my Macbook to experiment with different layouts and see if I could get comfortable with it.  Nope.  I've been looking at different players, perhaps the iBasso or the new Fiios player.  But why the heck would I do it when I already have an overpriced $1700 player?
  
 The second difference is the audio quality.  It's pretty great.  But it's not that much better than my current Antelope Zodiac which is about the same price and maybe 3 years old?  So much for revolutionizing DACs.


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## DoctaCosmos

Admittedly, I shouldn't have researched this product anymore as I plan on using iPad to stream my music via tidal.


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## Chuckjones242

doctacosmos said:


> Admittedly, I shouldn't have researched this product anymore as I plan on using iPad to stream my music via tidal.


 
  
 I tried to research the compatibility with my iOS devices and the Astell&Kern player, but there is no information out there.  Not in the manual, the internet, the dealers, or customer service.  It's basically why I made the post, to help others that might be looking for that info too 
  
 It seems shortsighted for them to think people are going to stay strapped to computers, or their CD players.  It's old school IMO (and I'm old).
  
 Even despite the slight bump in quality - that slight bump was enough to consider keeping it otherwise.
  
 Sorry / glad I could help


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## Chuckjones242

To finalize this, got a call back from Ayre.  Confirms my suspicions. To paraphrase...
  
 "They're primary focus is on delivering the best performance.  To them, that's with a computer through USB.  They've not tested against DAPs to know of others that might work."
  
 They are aware of the AK compatibility, apparently they follow a non-standard optical protocol, they tried to work with them to solve, but weren't able to.  More shocking is that they hadn't tested iOS at all he said.  It's not like no one had an iphone in the building right?
  
 I told the support person they should probably work out a way to let people know of the known compatibilities since the only knock on the product so far is the lack of inputs, and that exacerbates the problem.  Better to know of them instead of buying the Codex and having to work it all out.  
  
 I get it's a small company in CO, its partly why I wanted to support them.  I get small businesses and their challenges, but I just have a bad taste in my mouth.


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## occamsrazor

chuckjones242 said:


> "They're primary focus is on delivering the best performance.  To them, that's with a computer through USB."


 
  
 In which case I find it surprising that they chose not to implement USB HID volume control...... which would make controlling volume from the computer much nicer.


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## Chuckjones242

occamsrazor said:


> In which case I find it surprising that they chose not to implement USB HID volume control...... which would make controlling volume from the computer much nicer.


 
  
 My takeaway is that they took some USB standards (clearly I don't know what that is, other than they exist) and didn't really put much thought in it beyond that... and spent all their time in the unit itself.  Of the three DAC's that I've owned (including the Schiit even), this is the only one that doesn't recognize everything I throw at the red light or USB port.  Blaming Astell&Kern tells me they don't know why it doesn't work.


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## KmanChu

chuckjones242 said:


> And then I came to discover that the apple camera adapter that works with USB isn't compatible either.  "Not enough power".  Hosed again, so much for Discovr'ing music on my iPad.


 
  
 Would using a USB hub make this work?


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## austinpop

Wow, this is really sobering news. I could have understood USB incompatibilities, but in every product I've bought in the last 10+ years, optical _just works._ Not that I particularly want to use optical, but still...
  
 I am scheduled to audition a Codex in the next couple of weeks. Given this news, I will definitely try it first in my own intended configuration before forming any judgements.
  
 My intent is to use the Codex (or other DAC/Amp) downstream of an Auralic Aries Mini streamer, pulling music from a NAS over the network. The connection from Aries to Codex could be either USB or S/PDIF. I checked with Auralic, and their opinion was it should work fine, except "_It will have compatibility problem if you use USB storage and Ayre USB DAC at the same time." _Since I plan to use DLNA to stream over my network from my NAS, this should be OK. But again - many people want to use the Aries Mini with a USB drive. Troubling.
  
I feel compelled to vent at this point at the high-end audio industry. They seem to enshrine a particular use case as the "golden path" and unapologetically ignore others. The idea that people only want use a DAC/Amp via USB from a laptop is ludicrous in this age of portable DAPs, streamers, tablets, phones, etc. The whole point is to embrace flexibility, rather than stifle it.
  
I hope Alex from Ayre, who was on this thread a while back can shed some more light on their plans to address these concerns.


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## austinpop

chuckjones242 said:


> I get it's a small company in CO, its partly why I wanted to support them.  I get small businesses and their challenges, but I just have a bad taste in my mouth.


 
  
 Ayre is a respected name in audio, with many iconic and expensive products in their stable.
  
 As such, I don't think they deserve a "pass" for something like this. I think we are justified in expecting exceptional products from them


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## Chuckjones242

I made the mistake of not bringing my AK DAP with me to the audio shop (or my LCD-X's). I have slightly different musical tastes to begin with so having a demo with chamber music through 20K speakers was pointless. Ayre talked to me as if I was a fool for using optical in the first place, maybe but for me it's better to have GBs of music in my palm, and to be able to read reviews in Pitchfork and find the tracks in Spotify and Tidal. These use cases are the future, as the FiiO X7 with android shows. Unfortunately that player is coaxial, so again, I'm hosed there too. 

Def bring your setup with you. I waited a month and drove 2 hours - and infuriated my spouse, i was expecting a new love.


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## yage

austinpop said:


> I checked with Auralic, and their opinion was it should work fine, except "_It will have compatibility problem if you use USB storage and Ayre USB DAC at the same time." _Since I plan to use DLNA to stream over my network from my NAS, this should be OK. But again - many people want to use the Aries Mini with a USB drive. Troubling.


 
  
 I think their point was that there would be a lot of data being transferred across USB if a storage drive and a DAC were connected to the same bus, possibly increasing latency and causing drop outs. 
   
 Quote:


chuckjones242 said:


> And then I came to discover that the apple camera adapter that works with USB isn't compatible either.  "Not enough power".  Hosed again, so much for Discovr'ing music on my iPad.


 
  
 Like another poster mentioned, you probably need a powered USB hub in between the Codex and the iPad. When I bought a Schiit Fulla for my brother-in-law, I believe it wouldn't work when connected directly to the smartphone.


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## Chuckjones242

I don't know about testing the hub theory - I haven't had one in a while. Will pick one up if it makes a difference for someone?


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## yage

chuckjones242 said:


> I don't know about testing the hub theory - I haven't had one in a while. Will pick one up if it makes a difference for someone?


 

 Well, it might mean you can use your iPad with the Codex. Just make sure the hub isn't trying to draw power from the device it's connected to - it should come with its own power adapter. The Schiit Wyrd is an example of an expensive powered "hub" (in quotations because it only has one output port). Any powered hub from Amazon should work - at least for testing purposes.


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## KmanChu

I just used an Android OTG cable and tested all the data rates I have from a Samsung Galaxy S4 while streaming from my NAS. All worked just fine including 192/24 and DSDx2. I didn't need a hub, it just workd. I don't have an Apple CCK to test it with my iPad. 
  
 Ayre uses Gordon Rankin's Streamlength USB interface which is the original asynchronous USB Audio. This absolutely conforms to the generic USB Audio 2.0 standard (which I suspect is part of why USB control of the _onboard_ volume control is not supported, as some have complained about.) 
  
 The Codex does not draw any power from the usb port, so theoretically the hub wouldn't help, but I suppose it would help ensure the iOS device looks more like a generic USB data stream. There have been multiple cases I have heard of, however, where a USB interface worked better with a hub in the middle. If you want to get fancy you could get a Wyred, or even take it up a notch to a REGEN. 
  
 However, the fact that Toslink doesn't work makes me wonder if perhaps your unit is somehow defective. Do you have any other device that you could test it with other than the AK?


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## yage

Here's the scoop from Apple about the camera adapter (https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202034)...
  


> If you see a power alert or your iOS device still doesn't detect your accessory, you might need to connect your USB device through a powered USB hub.


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## KmanChu

yage said:


> Here's the scoop from Apple about the camera adapter (https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202034)...


 
  
 And seeing as how the Codex doesn't draw any power from the USB port, and they have made significant efforts to ensure isolation, I'd bet the +5V pin on the Codex is not connected to anything at all.


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## yage

@Chuckjones242 - One other thing re: optical - you're using mini-Toslink to Toslink optical cable, like this one, right?


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## Chuckjones242

Yep it's that spdif toslink cable. I was able to use the same cable for my MacBook to confirm that the optical port does "work" to some degree. 

I'll try my AppleTV too now. 

I looked for a (powered hub) in the house and then went to my local staples when picking up dinner. No dice. Honestly I've not needed one since I connected a printer and a ZIP drive to a PC... The theory that they've not hooked up the 5v pin to anything makes sense!


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## KmanChu

chuckjones242 said:


> Yep it's that spdif toslink cable. I was able to use the same cable for my MacBook to confirm that the optical port does "work" to some degree.
> 
> I'll try my AppleTV too now.
> 
> I looked for a (powered hub) in the house and then went to my local staples when picking up dinner. No dice. Honestly I've not needed one since I connected a printer and a ZIP drive to a PC... The theory that they've not hooked up the 5v pin to anything makes sense!


 
 Dang, that is too bad. I have been meaning to buy a lightning to camera adapter anyway, so I pick one up on the way home and try it with my iPad tonight. Just to see if it will work with my unit.


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## KmanChu

Finally got the camera connection cable and the iPad Air does not work reliably with the Codex. When first connected the devices works fine together, then during a track change something will get muffed up and an error pops up saying something like Ayre USB interface is not supported. Bummer. My Android phone works flawlessly, so maybe it is something specific to iOS. If the Codex were intended portable use it would be unforgivable, for me this isn't a problem as this wasn't my intended use, but I can see it being a no-go for a lot of people.


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## Chuckjones242

I had to just give up and returned it Saturday. The only solve for me is to get a network streaming device of some sort... Alex at Ayre recommended a Melco (which my dealer carried) but that was another $2K. 

It was interesting - when I came in the dealer hooked up a Bluetooth player for the iOS devices. I have one already, familiar enough to know they're meh at best. 

We called Ayre and got some insight from them. They confirmed that they didn't implement the +5 pin you mentioned so you can expect the issues with iOS. They confirmed they didn't even test it honestly, the device is meant for USB computers and network streaming. 

With my A&K player they confirmed they were having issues supporting it and were working on trying to solve the problem since many audiophiles have them and they expect this to come up again. Said something akin to thanks for helping them test and that when they have a solve I would be the first person to receive an update if I stuck with them for a while. Very nice guys. 

They also wish they could supply balanced cables with the Codex because the quality of the sound is much more than subtle. 

But alas since I started this journey looking for a $1000 amp and not even a DAC, I am not in a position to buy a Melco on top of it - bringing my total to $4K. Had to just quit for now. 

Thanks for your help troubleshooting!


----------



## austinpop

I finally got a chance to audition a Codex at my local Ayre dealer. He had burned it in for about 250 hours before I listened to it.
  
*Source: *My own Auralic Aries Mini w/LPS, and with internal SSD containing a bunch of DSD and Hi Rez PCM music --> some fancy *USB *cable* *--> *Ayre Codex *-- single ended, no balanced cable on hand --> Sennheiser *HD800 *(Tyll's Anax mod)
  
*Sonic Impressions: *I was really floored by the Codex. Of course it helped that this guy had megabucks power cords, conditioners and interconnects in play. The net effect was definitely to make the Codex shine. The complete lack of noise created a palpably black background. And this was single ended! Tonal balance was very neutral, excellent bass, and a very smooth treble. The latter was particularly nice on the HD800, with its unforgiving nature on the higher frequencies. I detected a complete lack of harshness, glaze, or brightness that I have heard with lesser amps. The Codex DAC is definitely something special. Music had an effortlessness to it, with excellent PRAT.
  
*Comparison: *Unfortunately, I cannot compare the Codex to any of its competitors, since none were on hand. I would love to pit it against the NuPrime DAC-10H, the Mytek Brooklyn, or the Simaudio Moon 230HAD. All I had on hand was my trusty Benchmark DAC1 HDR, and it was severely outclassed. We fed the Codex audio output into the Benchmark, to compare the headphone stage of the Codex with the Benchmark. It was really no contest. The Benchmark sounded thin, and noticeably smeared. The same PRAT that had my feet tapping on the Codex was MIA on the Benchmark.
  
*Limitations: *The Codex lacks any analog inputs, nor does it have coax S/PDIF, both of which are important to me. Also, I worry about the power of the amp. I had to set the volume in the 85-90 range (on a 0-100 scale) with my HD800 for some of my classical music, which doesn't leave much more gain on hand. Of course, going balanced will give me +6dB, so perhaps this is not a huge issue.
  
*Issues: *Sadly, I did run into some operational glitches, having to do with the USB connection. Specifically:

We saw this strange issue where a track could be selected, and would successfully start playing, but the Auralic Lightning DS app would show no status or progress, and there was no way to pause or otherwise control the track.
The only way to control was to select another track in the app
First time selecting the track, it would get an error indicating no USB device was detected, but subsequent attempt to play would succeed.
 These all sound like USB handshaking issues, but since I'm already committed to the Aries Mini as my source, this does give me pause. I've alerted both Ayre and Auralic of this issue, and am waiting to hear their feedback.
  
 Clearly, as others have mentioned on this thread, the Ayre is targeted squarely at the user driving it from a Mac over USB. All other use cases are fraught with peril. 
  
 So all in all, a mixed bag.


----------



## jrfmd

If you used balanced wire to the earphones the volume level would be about 80 (I had same problem at first) and the sound quality would have been amazing.
 I don't think the usb problem is gone with a mac either. It seems you cant use any other usb device at the same time you use the codex and I find that too limiting.
 On the other hand if you use a 3 foot audioquest forest optical cable (or better?) the sound is indistinguishable (I a-b tested them) from the usb input..
 this seems the best way to use the codex and avoids all the usb problems
 Jeffrey R Fischman


----------



## mink70

Spoke to Alex Brinkman at Ayre this morning, who was funny and cool, and who confirmed that 1) the chip in the Codex is the ESS ES9018K2M, not the plain 9018, and that 2) it is perfectly normal that my Codex, which has about 180 hours on it currently, is still sounding steely, bright and way worse than my Pono Player's line out. He said that the unit sounds amazing out of the box and then begins sounding much worse, which mirrors my experience perfectly. He said 500 hours is required (and acknowledged how annoying this is.) Oy!
  
 So if you just got the Codex, settle in for few weeks and don't succumb to despair, like I was doing. And if you're a break-in doubter or think it matters only a little, prepare to be seriously surprised.


----------



## L8MDL

mink70 said:


> Spoke to Alex Brinkman at Ayre this morning, who was funny and cool, and who confirmed that 1) the chip in the Codex is the ESS ES9018K2M, not the plain 9018...




So the "literature" on the Ayre site is incorrect? It states ESS 9018, not the K2M. Seems like a rather big omission to me.

Source: https://www.ayre.com/codex_reviews.htm


----------



## yage

My guess is K2


l8mdl said:


> So the "literature" on the Ayre site is incorrect? It states ESS 9018, not the K2M. Seems like a rather big omission to me.
> 
> Source: https://www.ayre.com/codex_reviews.htm


 
  
 My guess is that K2M or not will matter very little once most people hear it... (after the 500 hr break-in period, of course)


----------



## austinpop

jrfmd said:


> If you used balanced wire to the earphones the volume level would be about 80 (I had same problem at first) and the sound quality would have been amazing.
> I don't think the usb problem is gone with a mac either. It seems you cant use any other usb device at the same time you use the codex and I find that too limiting.
> On the other hand if you use a 3 foot audioquest forest optical cable (or better?) the sound is indistinguishable (I a-b tested them) from the usb input..
> this seems the best way to use the codex and avoids all the usb problems
> Jeffrey R Fischman


 
  
 Good points, so let me address these in sequence.

*Balanced mode*: good to know, but hard to verify, unless you happen to have the right cables on hand.
*Other USB devices:* in my case, there were no other devices on the USB bus, other than the Aries Mini and the Codex.
*Optical:* I'm glad to hear that sound quality was good/indistinguishable from USB. However, I would still have two concerns:
Page 7 of the manual specifically says: _The USB input provides lower levels of jitter, and is the preferred connection if a source device has both USB and TosLink outputs. _So for me, using Toslink would leave me feeling I was using the product suboptimally. Not good for something you just paid $1795 for.
I cannot find anywhere exactly what formats are supported over Toslink? I need to stream both PCM high-res content up to 24/192, and DSD content up to DSD128. Most DACs limit Toslink to lower resolutions. Interestingly, the Codex manual on page 16 talks about supported _Audio Input Signals, _but does not mention which input supports these. An optimist could interpret to mean that these are supported on both USB and Toslink. I'm more of a pragmatist on this matter.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Maybe Ayre can chime in here and clarify.


----------



## austinpop

mink70 said:


> Spoke to Alex Brinkman at Ayre this morning, who was funny and cool, and who confirmed that 1) the chip in the Codex is the ESS ES9018K2M, not the plain 9018, and that 2) it is perfectly normal that my Codex, which has about 180 hours on it currently, is still sounding steely, bright and way worse than my Pono Player's line out. He said that the unit sounds amazing out of the box and then begins sounding much worse, which mirrors my experience perfectly. He said 500 hours is required (and acknowledged how annoying this is.) Oy!
> 
> So if you just got the Codex, settle in for few weeks and don't succumb to despair, like I was doing. And if you're a break-in doubter or think it matters only a little, prepare to be seriously surprised.


 
  
 How did you contact Alex Brinkman at Ayre? I tried to PM him, with no response.


----------



## foreverzer0

mink70 said:


> Spoke to Alex Brinkman at Ayre this morning, who was funny and cool, and who confirmed that 1) the chip in the Codex is the ESS ES9018K2M, not the plain 9018, and that 2) it is perfectly normal that my Codex, which has about 180 hours on it currently, is still sounding steely, bright and way worse than my Pono Player's line out. He said that the unit sounds amazing out of the box and then begins sounding much worse, which mirrors my experience perfectly. He said 500 hours is required (and acknowledged how annoying this is.) Oy!
> 
> So if you just got the Codex, settle in for few weeks and don't succumb to despair, like I was doing. And if you're a break-in doubter or think it matters only a little, prepare to be seriously surprised.


 
  
 I'd be upset if a manufacturer kept upping this burn-in timeframe, my Geek Pulse Infinity's recommended is at least 200 hours. I'd almost think they're telling me to keep listening until the return window is over!


----------



## austinpop

foreverzer0 said:


> I'd be upset if a manufacturer kept upping this burn-in timeframe, my Geek Pulse Infinity's recommended is at least 200 hours. I'd almost think they're telling me to keep listening until the return window is over!


 
 Yeah, they need to back up that 500 hour claim with a longer return window.
  
 Although to be fair, I don't know what an Ayre dealer will allow in terms of a return window.


----------



## yage

austinpop said:


> *Issues: *Sadly, I did run into some operational glitches, having to do with the USB connection. Specifically:
> 
> We saw this strange issue where a track could be selected, and would successfully start playing, but the Auralic Lightning DS app would show no status or progress, and there was no way to pause or otherwise control the track.
> The only way to control was to select another track in the app
> ...


 
  
 This is from the Auralic website (http://support.auralic.com/hc/en-us/articles/206602837):
  


> The USB DAC running on Wavelength USB firmware cannot use USB playback function due to a confirmed bug of Wavelength USB firmware under Linux. The known effected brands are: Ayre, Aesthetix, Berkeley Audio, Jeff Rowland and possibly others.


 
  
 I find this quite surprising, since I used Linux with the Codex quite successfully both at 16/44.1 and 24/192 (no DSD to test). EDIT: Also wanted to mention that I've used the DragonFly v1.2 DAC with Rankin's USB implementation on Linux and encountered no problems there either.


----------



## DoctaCosmos

Probably called. The ayre telephone promt has a direct line to him


----------



## jrfmd

the balanced cable improvement isnt subtle
 the a-b testing between usb and optilink was done at 16/44.1 (apple lossless) and I believe they are indistinguishable (using the short length and brand I indicated)--Higher speed would have to be tested by someone else -- I use cd quality sound for the headphones
 Jeff


----------



## mink70

austinpop said:


> How did you contact Alex Brinkman at Ayre? I tried to PM him, with no response.




I called.


----------



## austinpop

> *Issues: *Sadly, I did run into some operational glitches, having to do with the USB connection. Specifically:
> 
> We saw this strange issue where a track could be selected, and would successfully start playing, but the Auralic Lightning DS app would show no status or progress, and there was no way to pause or otherwise control the track.
> The only way to control was to select another track in the app
> ...


 
  
 Some positive news to report. Kudos to both Auralic and Ayre for being very responsive to my findings.
  
 I got a chance to redo the experiment in my house, using my (modern) router, and I'm happy to say that operation was flawless. I saw no issues with track control, as I had seen at the dealer's.
  
 The hypothesis that Auralic put forward was that this was a router issue, possibly around multicast support. Certainly in my setup, my router had UPnP and multicast enabled, and there were no issues.


----------



## jrfmd

I don't know if its of any general interest but I had to send my codex back because the usb wasn't working. They send me a new board (read "break in again") and the sound quality on the new board using the usb is now clearly better than the optical cable. (using audioquest carbon 5 footer usb cable) -- this is not in keeping with my previous post based on the original codex I received.
  
 btw I find the sound can be made very enjoyable before full break-in by equalizing. --   the first 24 hours are rough though.
  
 Jeff


----------



## mink70

jrfmd said:


> I don't know if its of any general interest but I had to send my codex back because the usb wasn't working. They send me a new board (read "break in again") and the sound quality on the new board using the usb is now clearly better than the optical cable. (using audioquest carbon 5 footer usb cable) -- this is not in keeping with my previous post based on the original codex I received.
> 
> btw I find the sound can be made very enjoyable before full break-in by equalizing. --   the first 24 hours are rough though.
> 
> Jeff


 
  
 What is your impression of the unit before break in? What frequencies are you equalizing?
  
 (I have found the first 200 hours pretty rough with my Codex, honestly.)


----------



## jrfmd

after the first day it sounds very good, it sounded like crap when I tried to use an optical cable longer than 1.5 feet and most music isn't very enjoyable without some equalizing
 this is the setting I use for a lot of light music/jazz. it has to be changed by trial and error for lots of songs (both bass and treble). The trick is to find a setting that works for some music so you can relax and then enjoy finding settings for other music at your leisure.
  
 these arent very expensive cables and Im sure others would work but generic or long cables really ruin the sound so you'd think the codex isn't working and not using balanced with the hd800 doesn't have any life in it. macbook pro itunes 16/44.1-> audioquest 2.5 foot forest optical cable/audioquest 5 foot carbon usb cable->codex->cardas balanced -> hd800
  


 good luck,
 jeff


----------



## jrfmd

thought I'd send another equalization in case the first one didn't work for you
 this is specific to emerson string quartet recordings (very hard to my ears)
 sounds great on my 48 hour burned in codex


 jeff


----------



## mink70

jrfmd said:


> thought I'd send another equalization in case the first one didn't work for you
> this is specific to emerson string quartet recordings (very hard to my ears)
> sounds great on my 48 hour burned in codex
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks Jeff. I'm finding that the sound keeps changing pretty dramatically over the first 250 hours.


----------



## music_man

not working here! first of all running windows 10 pro 64 bit. had to install driver in windows compatability mode. that is bad to begin with. then i open jriver. everything itry i just keep getting errors and no playback! it says it is tusbasiodriver. i hope someone can help! apparently also this does not upsample at all from the looks of it? all i read were the rave reviews now this. great. i would really appreciate if someone helps out here. i know my way around a windows machine and jriver but i am now stumped. thanks.


----------



## KmanChu

I am currently using Win10 64 Pro, but I originally installed in Win7 and upgraded just before the new year. If I recall correctly this is how I have it setup with JRiver 20.
  
 In the Windows sound manager the device shows up as "Speakers  Ayre USB Interface Audio". If it doesn't show up here then something is fundamentally wrong and the device isn't even recognized. If you see it, then It is a good idea to click Properties -> Advanced  then check both options in the Exclusive mode box. I set the default sound output device as something other than the Ayre so the Windows sound mixer doesn't try to muck with the stream.
  
 In JRiver
 Tools -> Options -> Audio -> Audio Devices -> TUSBAudio Audio Driver [ASIO]
  
     Click on Device Settings, the check the box that says "DSD bitstream in DoP format"
  
 Then 
 Tools -> Options -> Audio   -> Settings     Find Bitstreaming and set to " Yes(DSD) "
      
 I recall that when installing new dacs sometimes JRiver needs to be restarted (I have 6 different Windows ASIO drivers.) The Ayre driver works pretty simply and without much fuss for me. 
  
 There is also WASAPI mode, does that give the same type of behavior?


----------



## music_man

thanks. however it is broken in device manager. exclamation point with code 10 this device has failed to start. therefore not showing in audio devices of course. i'll try calling ayre tomorrow i guess. the driver has to be run in windows seven comparability mode to begin with however the driver installation does check for the device and find it to proceed with installation. just broken in device manager. not even listed as  a usb device as it shows it should on ayre's website.


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## music_man

got it working! apparently it will not play nice with the ifi ipurifier! perhaps that is not needed with this dac anyhow. i heard they did a lot about galvanic isolation nonetheless. it was worth working on it. in two minutes i realized this thing is fantastic. i am about to a/b it with dacs 30x the price and i am guessing it is going to come pretty close. you guys were not kidding about this one. it looks like in just a few minutes of listening they may very well have knocked one out of the park for a mere $1,700. i can tell you right now it is going to put most other 2 grand dacs to shame. wish it did not get so hot but must be class a i suppose. minor drawback. i just need to see if it powers the balanced and se at the same time. i hope so. other than that having to push the button to go to toslink for cd transport is another minor drawback but you do have to switch most dacs. just quibbles. thing appears to be very promising. mine has 600 hours on it as i requested. so it is ready to rock and roll. i do not give up easily! now 1:30am.


----------



## music_man

one other tiny niggle so far. when i turn off the computer it makes a tiny click through the speakers. i wonder what kind of voodoo is in that ipurifier though. still sounding great.


----------



## music_man

sorry to hijack this hread. ayre tech told me if i plug into the rear balanced and se at the same time i am ruining the sound on the balanced. i can't hear a difference. balanced is lit up with both. do you find this makes a difference? astonishingly the ayre tech told me this is really a budget product and not meant to be high end! he also said i do not need usb purification with this. seems strange. kmanchu, i hope you come back and comment on myposts. sorry for so many.
 thanks.


----------



## Chuckjones242

music_man said:


> astonishingly the ayre tech told me this is really a budget product and not meant to be high end!
> thanks.




Not surprising to hear he said that.... Was it Mike?


----------



## music_man

yes it was mike. he said they will be coming out with much higher end products soon too. i understand in the realm of audio this really is "budget". i have some very high end equipment here. like gryphon and msb. so yes in that regard it is budget. however to many people this is a lot of money for a dac. i understand that plenty. on the other hand it is not in his best interest to say that. they have something here i feel is better than the ps audio directstream, bryston bda-3, benchmark dac 2, nad m51 etc. so here you have a $1,800 dac which i did not even pay full and it is already beating $5-$6k dacs. of course it cannot beat the diamond dac v but it is surprising how close it gets. this is truely a product where diminishing returns will kick in very quickly.
  
 i got it working with the ipurifier in fact but not sure if i should be using that with this dac? as for him saying not to have the se connected i hear no difference and the balanced light is lit. i am sure he would know his product better than i have had 2 days though. also he does have a valid point to play files in their native format. that is honestly good common sense with any dac but i happen to like the sound of dsd. so that is just a preference. he is correct about that though. unless you just have a junk dac of course it will improve for anyone then. this is no junk dac.
  
 could you look at my post in high end please about the ax5 if you know anything about it? i am considering it strongly tomorrow but i am thinking there a lot of integrated amps in the only 8-10 grand range i might also consider. i am not sure how that is 15 grand. they may be in boulder but they certainly are not ps audio! not really an insult i just mean much higher end.
  
 it was very nice he answered the phone. i remember barrows at ps audio he was so nice. wonder what happened to him. i am just saying companies that answer the call go a long way with me. try to get some cheap chinese dac rep on the phone. interestingly i just encountered a mid end speaker rep that was so rude i could not beleive what he said. f-bomb directed at me. i take it this guy knows his stuff. i am so happy with this company i never tried before i guess the ax5 actually is worth the 15 grand. bet i take it home and do not bring it back! this is just in the upstairs of my bedroom. my main system is much higher end but i fully realize this is already a lot to a lot of people. i just felt kind of bad when he said it was not high end. one, it really sort of is and two there are much cheaper dacs.
  
 well anyways this was worth every penny i paid. i can't say what because i know people but regardless i am very surprised. i guess i plan to get the ax5 tomorrow because my lovely 30 year old amp is now putting out 80 watts of it's original 200 lol. this is currently hooked up to the new sf extremas and it is keeping up with them just fine other than my dying amp. i wish i had waited though for their flagship model coming. i wonder if that will in fact unseat the diamond dac v. well does not matter if it does ill get it anyways. what i really needed was more ins outs which this does not have but he said the forthcoming flagship dac will have so many ins outs i might not want to count them all!
  
 i never tried this brand but i am seriously pleased with the products and most certainly the cs. if you can comment on the ax5 that would be great. thanks


----------



## bmichels

A new higher-end version ! ))


----------



## music_man

bmi, what do you mean? i am smitten with this. it is good enough for the system it is in. it is end game unless i up the other components. we are talking about mark levinson and sonus faber extrema the new ones. there you have 70 grand of other stuff and this dac is good enough to me with that. call me crazy. if ayre makes a better one of course i will buy it. especially with more ins and outs. this is already serious business. at the store they had it going in a $300,000 system for their demo of it.
  
 only questions i have is why did he say not to connect the se or it will ruin the balanced sound? i hear no difference. balanced lamp is lit. also the heat is an issue. not sure how long this thing will live like that. never had a dac this hot.
  
 also i am now playing in native format. this dac does indeed work better at 44.1 than upsampling to dsd. most dacs i prefer to upsample to dsd.
  
 anyways this is a serious dac much better than directstream which is six grand imo. of course it is not as good as the gryphon or msb. it is not far off though which is simply amazing. perhaps why they were demoing it in a $300k system.  
  
 it's good stuff maynard.


----------



## KmanChu

I think you are right in that when in dac mode it runs in balanced only regardless of the connections in the back. I think it switches to SE mode only when running SE headphones. I still like the sound of the Codex running into my SE tube amp than through the Codex's own balanced output, but with burnin the codex has gotten better.
  
 Those a big words, I remember when the Directstream came out everyone was freaking out about how it was the greatest dac ever, it seems to have fallen out of favor.
  
 Ayre makes a $25k preamp and I don't even know how much the MX-R 20 monoblocks cost. They are a very committed high end company who have been very progressive on the USB-dac front. They will not put their name on a product it they don't believe in it. If I were building a top end system I would build it around Ayre and/or Audio Research. One very good combination I heard a few times was Audio Research LS-27 with the Ayre Vx-5 (more powerful, power amp only version of Ax-5.) The Ax-5 will blow you away though. I heard it with a pair of Aerial 7T. It is very, very good and very expensive. But if you are playing in this league then it offers good performance for the money. I don't know that I will ever spend that much on a component unless it is some kind of powered speakers/monitors which effectively replaces multiple components (right now I am salivating over the Kii Three.)


----------



## music_man

you may not be aware in another thread i posted i got the ax5 twenty yesterday. my old amp was very high end but dying now. it is powering the new sonus faber extremas in my bedroom via all crystal cable cables. i even used several usb noise reduction devices in series. of course it does not require those. this is just my compact bedroom system and the sound is so good it is obscene. i am very pleased with ayre. i had not even known about them a week ago. i enjoy high end audio but i am not an audiophile perse. i do not really keep on this stuff. just take what my salesman of 40 years recommends. he has neverlet me down and this was a very good decision on my part. well, his but i am the one listening to it. this stuff is off the chain. i cannot wait for their flagship dac. i will most certainly have it. here it stands a mere $1,800 dac is knocking the big boys out of the park. as you say they know what they are doing. very well done ayre.


----------



## music_man

i discovered the ayre ech was very correct. trying to upsample redbook to dsd on the codex sounds downright awful. using native resolution for a given file i maintain at this point is fantastic on this dac. it seems things only improve from upsampling on very cheap low quality dacs. although the teacs do benefit from that. they are cheap dacs but not at all junk. likewise with msb and gryphon stick to native resolution. it is odd to me that better dacs fall on their face when trying to upsample. or perhaps it is just that they are operating properly when not trying to create something that is not there. this was interesting. however, as usual i find in jriver using the dacs driver wrapped in the foo_asio proxy the sound does improve. just make sure the resolution is native to the file being used. that is not a surprise because i find this to be the case with all higher end dacs but not lower end ones. the lower end ones stand to sound better. the better dacs just let them do their thing. glad i took two minutes to try it on this one as well though. that is one mark of a better dac if it sounds better in native resolution of the file. even so dsd may well go the way of sacd that birthed it. redbook reigns supreme in my book.


----------



## coolmilo

I purchased a Codex about a month ago. I am running it for about 6 to 12 hours per day. I think I have about 150 on it hours now. The sound seemed to change after 100 hours. I always thought it sounded good, but it is much more musical sounding after 100 hours. I hope it improves even more after more hours. The biggest change in sound is the lower end, especially acoustic bass instruments. At first I thought I was going to need an EQ, but now the bass is not nearly as harsh and punchy as it was before 100 hours. It's very musical now throughout all ranges, acoustic guitar sounds awesome through the Codex.

Connecting to MAC is plug and play. I also switched to Roon and the combination is glorious. My simple setup is Mac > Codex > Audeze LCD-X (balanced), controlled by Roon. I really enjoy the big sound coming from such a small device.


----------



## KmanChu

coolmilo said:


> I purchased a Codex about a month ago. I am running it for about 6 to 12 hours per day. I think I have about 150 on it hours now. The sound seemed to change after 100 hours. I always thought it sounded good, but it is much more musical sounding after 100 hours. I hope it improves even more after more hours. The biggest change in sound is the lower end, especially acoustic bass instruments. At first I thought I was going to need an EQ, but now the bass is not nearly as harsh and punchy as it was before 100 hours. It's very musical now throughout all ranges, acoustic guitar sounds awesome through the Codex.
> 
> Connecting to MAC is plug and play. I also switched to Roon and the combination is glorious. My simple setup is Mac > Codex > Audeze LCD-X (balanced), controlled by Roon. I really enjoy the big sound coming from such a small device.


 

 I am using Roon with Windows and it has been very good, at least on par with JRiver. What balanced cable are you using with the Audezes?


----------



## bobmysterious

Soooo, I've got the Codex on my shortlist along with the Yggdra-thing and the Brooklyn. By any chance has anyone recently heard and compared the three? I know it might be kind of a long shot, but they seem to be some of the serious contenders in this price range (at least to me).


----------



## yage

I've heard the Codex and the Yggdrasil. I've also listened to a Mytek Stereo 192. (Just to be clear I don't own any of these components.) I've spent the most time with the Codex. I'd say if you're seaching for detail and vibrancy, go for the Yggy. If you seek an analytical approach, the Mytek might be the place to start. If you want to be emotionally engaged and place high value on musicality, then I'd try the Codex first.

Hope this helps!


----------



## bobmysterious

It definitely helps!  That kinda rules out the Brooklyn for me then.  The DAC is going in front of a Zana Deux Super and LCD-X's FWIW.  I listen to mostly rock, blues, some jazz, and no classical - so it sorta seems like the Codex might be a better choice.  I suppose I can't go wrong with either though.


----------



## coolmilo

The balanced cable is from WyWires. Which cable options are you looking at?


----------



## yage

bobmysterious said:


> The DAC is going in front of a Zana Deux Super and LCD-X's FWIW.  I listen to mostly rock, blues, some jazz, and no classical


 
  
 Given your musical preferences, the Gungnir Multibit might also be a good choice. It's a little warmer sounding than the Yggy, which I think would work well with rock, blues, and jazz - good boogie factor.


----------



## foreverzer0

yage said:


> Given your musical preferences, the Gungnir Multibit might also be a good choice. It's a little warmer sounding than the Yggy, which I think would work well with rock, blues, and jazz - good boogie factor.


 
 How would you compare the gumby to the codex? I also wonder how you would describe or fit the Pulse Infinity amongst these.


----------



## yage

foreverzer0 said:


> How would you compare the gumby to the codex? I also wonder how you would describe or fit the Pulse Infinity amongst these.


 

 It's hard for me to say since I haven't had time with them head-to-head. Although I certainly appreciate the Yggy, I actually preferred the Gumby when I had a chance to listen to both in the same system (not my own, however). I'd also rather have the Codex on my desk than the Yggy, so my feeling is that the Codex and Gumby are cut from similar cloth. I'm sure there are differences between the two that'll be uncovered in a direct A/B comparison.
  
 I've never heard the Pulse Infinity, so unfortunately can't provide any insight there.


----------



## foreverzer0

yage said:


> It's hard for me to say since I haven't had time with them head-to-head. Although I certainly appreciate the Yggy, I actually preferred the Gumby when I had a chance to listen to both in the same system (not my own, however). I'd also rather have the Codex on my desk than the Yggy, so my feeling is that the Codex and Gumby are cut from similar cloth. I'm sure there are differences between the two that'll be uncovered in a direct A/B comparison.
> 
> I've never heard the Pulse Infinity, so unfortunately can't provide any insight there.


 
 what about the differences between the Codex's DS and Gumby/Yggy's R2R? many here claim there's a consistent difference in the sound of R2R dac's..


----------



## bobmysterious

yage said:


> Given your musical preferences, the Gungnir Multibit might also be a good choice. It's a little warmer sounding than the Yggy, which I think would work well with rock, blues, and jazz - good boogie factor.




Thanks for the head's up, I'll do a little research on it.


----------



## yage

foreverzer0 said:


> what about the differences between the Codex's DS and Gumby/Yggy's R2R? many here claim there's a consistent difference in the sound of R2R dac's..


 
  
 With respect to the DS vs R2R debate, I take a somewhat contrarian stance that it matters and yet it doesn't matter. It matters in the sense that the DAC is responsible for a part of how the component sounds, and yet it doesn't matter because in the end, it's what the component sounds like taken as a whole that really counts. It kinda reminds me of the whole tube vs solid state "debate". I've heard tube amps that aren't very 'tubey' (like Schiit's Valhalla 2) and solid state that possesses midrange magic in spades (e.g. the Codex). It's mystifying how people can get really caught up in a singular dimension of a piece of kit, but it sure makes for entertaining reading.


----------



## KmanChu

coolmilo said:


> The balanced cable is from WyWires. Which cable options are you looking at?


 
  
 Right now I am just using the SurfCables Pono->XLR adapter along with my Van Damme blue studio cable. I am trying to decide if I should bite the bullet and get a big money cable. If I did I would maybe go with Silver Dragons. The only irritating part is the 3.5mm jacks on the codex vs the standard 4pin xlr that my amp uses.
  
 @bob mysterious   I have the Codex in front of a tube/hybrid amp. I often use the codex to drive the headphones just from the front ports. I do still prefer my tube amp but the integrated unit is very, very good and it gives you some flexibility for a bit different sound, or if you don't want to leave the big rig burning your tubes up for casual/intermittent listening. Is USB the only input that mattes to you? That is one irritation for me with the codex, that I can't run BNC or AES into it.


----------



## bobmysterious

USB is pretty much all I'm looking for, but I might put the optical to use some day.  I'd imagine that I would approach the Codex as an amp as well, but only have the stock Audeze cord currently.  I'm looking at Wywires sooner or later, I'd just need to have him make a 1/4" to dual 1/8" balanced adapter to go with it.


----------



## coolmilo

kmanchu said:


> Right now I am just using the SurfCables Pono->XLR adapter along with my Van Damme blue studio cable. I am trying to decide if I should bite the bullet and get a big money cable. If I did I would maybe go with Silver Dragons. The only irritating part is the 3.5mm jacks on the codex vs the standard 4pin xlr that my amp uses.
> 
> @bob mysterious   I have the Codex in front of a tube/hybrid amp. I often use the codex to drive the headphones just from the front ports. I do still prefer my tube amp but the integrated unit is very, very good and it gives you some flexibility for a bit different sound, or if you don't want to leave the big rig burning your tubes up for casual/intermittent listening. Is USB the only input that mattes to you? That is one irritation for me with the codex, that I can't run BNC or AES into it.




I have the SurfCables adaptor cable too. I think it is best to buy a new cable. I am very happy with WyWires, but I am sure the silver dragons would be a great solution too. I just felt the adaptor weighed me down. I have a Pono too. I love the sound, but I ultimately I went for the Codex because I have a good size library and wanted a computer audio solution again. I hope to find a new home for the Pono.

I was listening to Hector Zazou's In the House of Mirrors today and I was blown away by the sound quality through the Codex. The Codex must be getting close to 200 hours now.


----------



## music_man

I am really impressed with this. this could be end game for some people. i just need more connectivity options. i hope they make a full size one. probably even better by them which at that point should put it in the top 5 of all time. it really is that good. it is very surprising this is based off a portable music player. i can imagine what that thing sounds like. this may not have many connections or a fancy display but honestly they could sell it for twice it's price. i better shut up while i am ahead!


----------



## yage

music_man said:


> it is very surprising this is based off a portable music player. i can imagine what that thing sounds like.


 
  
 If you like the Codex, you should by all means try the Pono player - but only in balanced mode. It is incredibly good.


----------



## coolmilo

yage said:


> If you like the Codex, you should by all means try the Pono player - but only in balanced mode. It is incredibly good.


 

 I agree, but the tiny screen is so annoying and I always clicked the wrong thing. Neil Young should consider making a Pono 2 with Ayre electronics inside and Astell & Kern UI. That would make for a killer DAP.


----------



## austinpop

Quick question for Codex owners.
  
When running the Codex in DAC mode (i.e. no headphones attached), input being fed from USB, what appears at the output ports? What I'm really asking is - 
 
Are both the balanced and single-ended audio outputs on the back panel *simultaneously active? *Or is it only one or the other? How do you pick between the two if they are connected to separate amps?
  
 Thanks.


----------



## bobmysterious

^ And is there as significant of a sound quality difference on the rear outs as there are on the headphone outs?


----------



## KmanChu

The Codex runs "Balanced" in dac mode at all times as best I can tell. I use the Codex into my amp which has only single ended inputs and when RCAs are hooked up (no XLRs) it still runs with the "Balanced" light on. When you run in shared headphone mode the balanced light goes off and the sound becomes much less convincing. I used to have the Ayre QB-9DSD (which is current and more expensive) and the Codex sounds better into my tube amp than the Qb-9 did. I am 99% certain the Codex runs with the same configuration in DAC mode regardless of if RCAs or XLRs are plugged into the back, both are active. Only when driving single-ended headphones does it reconfigure how the output stage runs depending on balanced vs SE.


----------



## austinpop

kmanchu said:


> The Codex runs "Balanced" in dac mode at all times as best I can tell. I use the Codex into my amp which has only single ended inputs and when RCAs are hooked up (no XLRs) it still runs with the "Balanced" light on. When you run in shared headphone mode the balanced light goes off and the sound becomes much less convincing. I used to have the Ayre QB-9DSD (which is current and more expensive) and the Codex sounds better into my tube amp than the Qb-9 did. I am 99% certain the Codex runs with the same configuration in DAC mode regardless of if RCAs or XLRs are plugged into the back, both are active. Only when driving single-ended headphones does it reconfigure how the output stage runs depending on balanced vs SE.


 
 Hi @KmanChu
  
 That is very interesting, because I got a different answer from Alex @ayreacoustics via email. To quote him:
  
_The outputs will both default to single-ended mode, thereby defeating the improvements of bal. mode. But sound will still happen. I would recommend it as a way to make sound, not a way to have an optimized set-up. _
  
 Perhaps his scenario only happens if you use *both *RCAs *and *XLRs?
  
 Do you have any XLR cables where you can test this theory by connecting both?
  
 The reason I'm asking this question is because I am gearing up to do a comparo between the Codex, the HDVA 600, and the Neo 230HAD. I was lucky enough to get on TTVJ's 230HAD loaner program, I own an HDVA 600, and my local Ayre dealer is intrigued enough to lend me his demo Codex.
  
 One scenario is to run the Codex as the DAC, and run analog output to both the other amps - balanced to the HDVA 600, and unbalanced (SE) to the 230HAD, since it has no balanced inputs. This is where my question applies.


----------



## KmanChu

If ayre says it runs in the single ended mode when rcas are plugged in then it is not for me to argue. But it still keeps the balanced light on when used that way. When plugging in an se headphone into the 1/4 jack the balanced light goes off. I dont own any balanced devices i could run it with. 

Soundwise when driving headphones with the codex the balanced mode is definitely superior, but my headphone amp (plugged into the rca outs of the codex) is better than the codex driving the headphones ditectly in any configuration.


----------



## austinpop

kmanchu said:


> If ayre says it runs in the single ended mode when rcas are plugged in then it is not for me to argue. But it still keeps the balanced light on when used that way. When plugging in an se headphone into the 1/4 jack the balanced light goes off. I dont own any balanced devices i could run it with.
> 
> Soundwise when driving headphones with the codex the balanced mode is definitely superior, but my headphone amp (plugged into the rca outs of the codex) is better than the codex driving the headphones ditectly in any configuration.




Just curious. What amp are you using?


----------



## bmichels

kmanchu said:


> ... I used to have the Ayre QB-9DSD (which is current and more expensive) and the Codex sounds better into my tube amp than the Qb-9 did.




CODEX sound BETTER than a QB-9 !!! THIS is very Impressive ! 

Indeed the QB-9 is the DAC that Justin uses at all trade show to demonstrate his BHSE + STAX set-up !


----------



## yage

bmichels said:


> CODEX sound BETTER than a QB-9 !!! THIS is very Impressive !


 
  
 Hmm... interesting. I tried the Codex as a DAC in balanced mode vs my Ayre C-5xeMP and felt the Codex couldn't compete in terms of soundstage depth and width - but this was on a speaker system. It probably wouldn't be as apparent for headphones. I got a good deal on a used QB-9 DSD so will probably make this comparison myself in the near future.


----------



## music_man

i agree it is better than the qb-9. in fact it might be the best dac under 10 grand. it has beat the Manhattan i have here too. i only have one complaint about it. the back pc board is not very sturdy. put big heavy cables on there and you may be breaking out the soldering iron. i just reinforced mine with non conductive epoxy and zip ties. i could see the connectors being bent. the sound is plenty good though and i am just using 16/44.1. of course it falls short of diamond dac v which still reigns supreme to me. it is close though which is amazing and not exactly a fair comparison. it can hold it's own against gryphon though. that is honestly pretty darn good. i have nothing bad to say about this for the cost.  you look at things like dac2 and bda-3 there is no comparison. it smokes that competition. not sure why it runs so hot unless class a and just wish it was largerwith more ins/outs. i have it on a great isolation pad and total overkill usb filtering. part of the key to the sound is the asio wrapper i am using in jriver. everyone has their opinion but i think you can't touch this for the price.


----------



## KmanChu

@rajivarora
 Amp is now discontinued Red Wine Audio Cassabria, It is a hybrid tube/FET amp with battery power. I am using the balanced output with my LCD-3Fs. It has only SE in. And don't get me wrong, right now I am listening through the Codex's own front ports because I will only be here for a few minutes and don't want to burn up my tubes. It does sound quite excellent on its own. I was hoping that it would be good enough to let me get rid of the tube amp, but I doubt that is gonna happen (maybe I just like tubes?)
  
@yage
 Is the C-5xeMP  purely a disc player or does it have a USB input? If you are comparing USB to disc spinner then I am not surprised your player won if you were not taking a lot of care on the USB side. The C-5xeMP is a pretty superlative player and the transport section I am sure is super clean. Despite the "galvanic isolation" the data over USB from a computer is far from pristine in terms of timing and the electrical noise. I never wanted to believe it myself but I just noticed different computers sounded very different. Hence I still think the transport (computer/server) side of USB audio is still very important. So, your C-5xeMP may be quite a bit better, but it is not quite an apples to apples comparison because your player is transport and dac, the Codex is just a dac relying on the computer transport it is plugged into.


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## music_man

that is why i have four different types of filtering devices ahead of it. although i always do with any dac. computers are not audiophile components unfortunately.
  
 I made the latest usb driver work with it. however i cannot share it for obvious reasons. it is absurd it has a driver that must be run in compatibility with windows 10. please do not pm me for the driver i will not share it.


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## yage

kmanchu said:


> ... but it is not quite an apples to apples comparison because your player is transport and dac, the Codex is just a dac relying on the computer transport it is plugged into.


 
  
 That's true. I was wondering if I could possibly replace my C-5xeMP and gain a headphone amp in the process. I didn't have an optical cable on hand to use with my Oppo BDP-103, which might have evened things up a bit - I might have to look into that the next time the Codex makes it into my system.


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## music_man

having this a while i can safely say this could be end game for many people. unless they will need the latest formats. i am very surprised how good this is. i did not even know about this until i went into a store. i would really like to know what makes it tick but i do not want to take it apart now. if they make a full size version i will certainly get it. that is my only problem with it connectivity options. i have not tried the headphones. to me it is only a dac. i am sure i have much better head amps but i could be wrong too. i did have trouble with all the filtering in front of it but it is working fine. fine indeed.


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## REXNFX

music_man said:


> having this a while i can safely say this could be end game for many people. unless they will need the latest formats. i am very surprised how good this is. i did not even know about this until i went into a store. i would really like to know what makes it tick but i do not want to take it apart now. if they make a full size version i will certainly get it. that is my only problem with it connectivity options. i have not tried the headphones. to me it is only a dac. i am sure i have much better head amps but i could be wrong too. i did have trouble with all the filtering in front of it but it is working fine. fine indeed.


 
 Did you try the optical input yet? Wondered whether this would avoid the need for all the USB fixes...


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## jrfmd

I own two of them, the first I can't hear a difference between the usb and optical, the second is brand new (not burned in yet) but I hear a difference -- not sure which is better but will wait until its burned in
 Jeff


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## music_man

have not tried it. it is hooked up to a high end transport anyways. i hardly use that anymore. i doubt plugging it in the motherboard is very good but who knows. it does not "need" the usb fixes at all. i just like to implement them. i feel they change the sound. if it is for the better is up to you. many people have said these things wrecked the sound too. i am just the guy that thinks more duct tape or krazy glue equals better. it is in my mind so naturally it is better. i assure you this dac among many high end ones is isolated internally to begin with. yes, in this instance i am probably being an idiot about this. in general i try to give solid advice. i cannot honestly recommend you must have usb fixes to make this work right. that is not at all the case. i am sorry if i was misleading about it.


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## music_man

oh, i just saw this. it may very well be that it is not burned in. this thing goes through big changes. still, i do feel opitical is not as good as usb. so long as it is not running off +5v. which it is not.


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## austinpop

Just thought y'all may like to read my review of the Codex here:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/products/ayre-acoustics-codex-headphone-amplifier-dac-preamp/reviews/15502


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## yage

austinpop said:


> Just thought y'all may like to read my review of the Codex here:
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/products/ayre-acoustics-codex-headphone-amplifier-dac-preamp/reviews/15502


 
  
 Nice review. I agree with everything you wrote and clearly your wife is a lady with refinement and taste


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## austinpop

^^ No argument there!


----------



## Rudivanb

austinpop said:


> Just thought y'all may like to read my review of the Codex here:
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/products/ayre-acoustics-codex-headphone-amplifier-dac-preamp/reviews/15502


 
 Thank you also from me for your nice review and for also describing the cons. Your review was exactly what I was looking for, as I will be using the Codex with the HD800 as well, together with a Dragon cable, though with a Blue Dragon v3 version.
  
 I am looking forward to receiving the Codex, hopefully next week. After burn-in I will post my findings, exciting times


----------



## austinpop

rudivanb said:


> Thank you also from me for your nice review and for also describing the cons. Your review was exactly what I was looking for, as I will be using the Codex with the HD800 as well, together with a Dragon cable, though with a Blue Dragon v3 version.
> 
> I am looking forward to receiving the Codex, hopefully next week. After burn-in I will post my findings, exciting times


 
  
 Awesome! Please do post your findings. For some reason, the Codex is not seeing the same level of attention on head-fi as some other product lines.


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## music_man

Thats because ayre is really known as a loudspeaker product i imagine.


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## foreverzer0

I had the chance to listen to this comparing with my Pulse X Infinity today. I must say the headphone amp section beats my Pulse with that nice midrange. However, when hooked up to speakers using it in DAC mode, it didn't sound anything special and my Pulse sounded better to my and my fiancee's ears. The imaging and soundstage on the Codex on speakers weren't as great in comparison.


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## music_man

that's very strange. i find it to be an outstanding dac and an okay headamp. everyone hears differently. or there would only be one audio company.
  
 raj, your review is good.


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## music_man

you know i said this could be end game too. however i meant the dac not the headamp! raj, comes to the opposite conclusion. again, everyone hears differently. i find this is a highly competent dac and would take a lot to challange it. like over 10 grand price range. it punches way above the belt. i am using it solely as a dac in a loudspeaker system. what i find with all dacs that include a headamp a high end dedicated headamp will tear them apart. i find as a dac it is way up the food chain. this is very lucky given the price. however it is no surprise coming from ayre. they have a name to uphold and this certainly makes the cut.
  
 just wonder about seand balanced connected. ayre tech said don't do that but i do not hear a difference. if you are going to use serious cables i highly suggest you reinforce the back board. of course you just voided your warranty but also saved the connectors from pulling off of it. that i see is it's only fault. everything has some little issue. as a dac it is simply outstanding. i could really care less about the headamp. i have much better ones and hardly listen to headphones anymore anyways,. i hope they come out with a full size one that has more ns/outs. optical is not my first choice. although it does have it's merits. i certainly feel this outclasses the qb9. this time the pony(pon?) is leading the horse. others disagree but i think this thing is worth every penny and would be completely fairat 5 grand but i will shut my mouth about that.


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## yage

@music_man - I don't doubt that you feel the Codex can compete with DACs many times its price in your system. It just didn't 'wow' me the same way as a standalone DAC in my system. I think Ayre used it as a standalone DAC during CES with an AX-5 Twenty and Vandersteen Quatro CT's, so clearly they think the Codex is up to snuff.
  
 In any case, I'll be getting a QB-9 DSD soon so I'll be able to let my ears decide.
  
 I wonder if you noticed that in the latest Stereophile, there was an ad for the new Ayre 5-series DAC. Well, kinda - no real details in the ad copy or on the website to be had. Not sure when it's going to be released either, but it must be soon. Have a look yourself (warning - it's quite boring):
  
 http://www.ayre.com/5digital.htm


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## music_man

it says it is a "source". i am not looking for a preamp just more connectivity. like bnc and aes/ebu. do not need any analog but i am sure they will throw it in. some think the qb-9 is better. i do not. as i said looks to me like they let the pony outrun the horse. whatever you do do not think about prices. if you get that in your head the qb-9 has to be better. it will mess up your listening. i am sure you know that though. i am going pc/music server into codex via multiple usb filtering devices(just because i like to) and expensive cabling. the codex is balanced to the ax-5 twenty powering the new version of the sonus faber extrema's. so this is a very high end system and the codex fits right in imo. this is just my bedroom system but it gets the most use. you can look around here and see what is in my dedicated listening room. the codex is one thing but i love the volume control on the ax-5 twenty. in fact i love the whole little box. the only thing i find strange is ayre uses switch mode psu's. by golly it works though. that is usually an audiophile no no. another odd thing the codex gets much hotter than the ax-5 twenty even when i am pushing on it. the power output rms is not huge but it drives those hungry sf's well amazingly. everyone knows it is the current doing the work. which in this case is high. i am just concerned with the codex running so hot and no on/off about it's longevity. ayre know how to build stuff so i am confident. if not built right however that heat can kill caps etc. i have never seen one open but i imagine it is cramped in there. the teac ud-501 prompted me to mod the heck out f it. it is now very good. the codex leaves me wanting nothing. i will not be taking it apart except in the future in the unfortunate event it shall need repair. i have a very good power cord, equally good balanced cables. it is on it's side on still points. plus all the usb filtering it does not really require. care for it and feed it right it shall sing so says i. obviously burn it in 600 hours and do not use the power cord in the box with it duh. the most important thing i always say and cannot stress enough is everyone hears differently. whatever works best for you. I have much more expensive dacs here. the codex is currently in a six figure system and i feel it does itself justice in that regard. shucks my power cable on it costs 5x more than it does! well, i guess you can tell i am sold on it. the physical size of it is very nice as well i have no doubt they have something better in the works but i do not feel it is the existing qb-9. please provide your findings once you get it of course. i value everyone's opinion even though we all have different tastes. the codex is farm from hamburger any way you slice it though..


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## yage

music_man said:


> the only thing i find strange is ayre uses switch mode psu's.


 
  
 Ayre most definitely *does not* use a switching power supply in any of their gear - even in the Codex, the power supply is linear.
  


music_man said:


> i am just concerned with the codex running so hot and no on/off about it's longevity. ayre know how to build stuff so i am confident. if not built right however that heat can kill caps etc. i have never seen one open but i imagine it is cramped in there.


 
  
 That was definitely one of my concerns as well. The original diamond topology in the AX-5 (not Twenty) ran pretty hot. I guess only time will tell if their ventilation / heat sinking is adequate enough.


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## music_man

actually i totally forgot they are not switching. the ei core transformer threw me off. i know they feel it sound better. this thing is beyond warm. i could not hold my hand on it five minutes. i hope it has a long life too.
  
 i had to lop off the connector on a very expensive power cord to fit it with a square connector that is not nearly as good. it is tight in back of it. you cannot fit a full round iec plug with the balanced ports and toslink port populated. i hope they make a full featured one but i do not need a preamp. i also forgot it does have a switch but even the smaller power cord is blocking it. it would be a pain to reach behind there and always turn it off anyways. equipment should really stay on and warm ready to listen too imo. even though that is not very green of me.


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## cygnusx

Question for you guys. Do you keep your Codex on all the time? Alex at Ayre says it's fine to leave on all the time but the devices gets very warm...almost hot.


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## Matt-Helm

Yes I've had mine on for about 3 months straight now.
  
 How else would I keep my living room warm in the winter?


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## KmanChu

Once I got past the breakin period I started turning it off. somedays I may not get to listen and I just feel it is silly to leave it on all the time with 4 Class A output devices running all the time. I do let it "warm up" prior to serious use though.


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## cygnusx

It's a good point. Ayre told me leave it running for 500 hours to break it in. I'm about 120 hours in and I can't stand listening to it right now. I hope the sound improves soon. It's hard being patient. The first few hours sounded fantastic.


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## music_man

it gets bad then good. ayre confirms this. give it 600 hours and it should be swewt. i am impatient so i requested mine pre-broken in at an extra charge. worth it to me. it gets plenty hot. hotter than class a ss amp in fact. not sure what is in it. no pictures yet. it is too hard to get behind mine and turn it off. i just hope it lasts. if not at least ayre will fix it right in the us. getting chinese gear fixed is a pain. in fact i usually use non authorized local service center. if i did not mention it already i love the way the dac sounds lol. i do not use the headamp. although for balanced i wish they used 1/4". i understand the real estate issue with it though.


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## cygnusx

music_man said:


> it gets bad then good. ayre confirms this. give it 600 hours and it should be swewt. i am impatient so i requested mine pre-broken in at an extra charge. worth it to me. it gets plenty hot. hotter than class a ss amp in fact. not sure what is in it. no pictures yet. it is too hard to get behind mine and turn it off. i just hope it lasts. if not at least ayre will fix it right in the us. getting chinese gear fixed is a pain. in fact i usually use non authorized local service center. if i did not mention it already i love the way the dac sounds lol. i do not use the headamp. although for balanced i wish they used 1/4". i understand the real estate issue with it though.



Thanks for the insight. I have it running 24/7. I can't wait until the burn in is completed.


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## mink70

I can confirm that the Codex sounds great out of the box and then gets really bad. Don't be alarmed. It takes more patience than most, but it's a documented phenomenon.


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## cygnusx

Do you guys think here is any advantage in upgrading the power cord on the Codex? Thanks


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## Latitude94941

Not in my experience so far. Tried switching to a Shunyata Venom Digital and found that overall sound took a big step backward. Musicality suffered and there was a prescence/treble glare that wasn't there before. Went back to the stock cord and am happy again. I had a conversation with someone at Ayre who said the product listening tests were conducted with stock cord (as well as with Ayre power cord).


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## cygnusx

latitude94941 said:


> Not in my experience so far. Tried switching to a Shunyata Venom Digital and found that overall sound took a big step backward. Musicality suffered and there was a prescence/treble glare that wasn't there before. Went back to the stock cord and am happy again. I had a conversation with someone at Ayre who said the product listening tests were conducted with stock cord (as well as with Ayre power cord).



Cool..good to know. You saved me some coin.  Thx


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## music_man

i have a cord on it that costs much more than it does. i hope i am not ruining the sound lol. sounds great to me. it would honestly be a pita here to fit the stock cord. where the power regenerator is. wonder if that is in fact hurting the sound too. this was like benchmark dac1. magically worked best with all stock cables. i certainly cannot explain that. i just really like cables. it is a fetish. i honestly feel they change the sound little if any on anything. except very strange geometries can harm sound and you too!


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## music_man

i was wondering something guys. many said the whole package is very good but the dac is so-so. if only looking for a dac what else would you guys be looking at in the under $2,000 category? i have much cheaper dacs and much more expensive ones. i tend to really like this as just a dac but i was wondering what you guys would shop for at this price point. solely for the dac. this is in a very high end system right now and i am fine with it. that does not mean you guys would be though. i heard ayre had it set up in a big bucks system, too. so they must think it is worthy. i am very surprised people thought the dac was just okay. what would you get?


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## KmanChu

I very much like my Codex and think it is significantly better than my NAD M51 which listed at $2k. The elephant in the room around the $2k pricepoint is the Schiit Yggdrasil. It is PCM only, and is a true R2R dac. The guy designing the Schiit dacs is the same guy who was behind the super high-end Theta stuff years ago.


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## yage

kmanchu said:


> I very much like my Codex and think it is significantly better than my NAD M51 which listed at $2k. The elephant in the room around the $2k pricepoint is the Schiit Yggdrasil. It is PCM only, and is a true R2R dac. The guy designing the Schiit dacs is the same guy who was behind the super high-end Theta stuff years ago.


 
  
 I've heard the Yggy on several occasions, though never in my own system. It's a nice DAC, but when a local Head-Fi'er had a shootout in his speaker system a few months ago, I preferred the sound of the Gungnir Multibit (Gumby) to the Yggy. I'd actually like to know how the Codex stacks up to the Gumby as well as the QB-9 DSD (which just recently arrived).
  
 In other news, I compared the QB-9 DSD with my C-5xeMP on both my speaker setup (Ayre AX-5 Twenty / Vandersteen 3A Sigs) and my headphone setup (DNA Sonett 2 / LCD-XC, HD 600). They are *very* close in terms of performance - it's spooky. In some instances, when I wanted to switch out the source, I went to press 'stop' for the C-5 only to realize I was listening to the QB-9! I'm really itching to compare it to the Codex now, since I didn't quite have the same experience with the Codex vs. the C-5.


----------



## KmanChu

yage said:


> I've heard the Yggy on several occasions, though never in my own system. It's a nice DAC, but when a local Head-Fi'er had a shootout in his speaker system a few months ago, I preferred the sound of the Gungnir Multibit (Gumby) to the Yggy. I'd actually like to know how the Codex stacks up to the Gumby as well as the QB-9 DSD (which just recently arrived).
> 
> In other news, I compared the QB-9 DSD with my C-5xeMP on both my speaker setup (Ayre AX-5 Twenty / Vandersteen 3A Sigs) and my headphone setup (DNA Sonett 2 / LCD-XC, HD 600). They are *very* close in terms of performance - it's spooky. In some instances, when I wanted to switch out the source, I went to press 'stop' for the C-5 only to realize I was listening to the QB-9! I'm really itching to compare it to the Codex now, since I didn't quite have the same experience with the Codex vs. the C-5.


 
  
 That is a cool result that the two are that similar, in some ways it is reassuring. I had always heard the QB-9DSD had very good isolation of the USB input, but I still noticed different computers sounded different to me even when running identical software. I am kind of wondering if there is some significant production variability with the Codex that Ayre hasn't nailed down quite yet. People seem to think the Codex either blows things out of the water at its pricepoint or else is very mediocre. 
  
 I haven't heard an Yggy, I was at a meet last weekend and supposedly there was going to be one there but the guy wasn't able to make it. I just know what I have read, but I do have respect for the designer behind it, if he thinks it is his best effort then I would expect it to really kick ass.


----------



## austinpop

I would love to do an A/B comparison of the Codex DAC section with a QB-9 DSD. I'll see if my Ayre dealer will let me borrow the latter at some point. I asked him what proportion of his Codex customers plan to use it as a DAC only vs. a DAC/Amp, and he said it was 50-50 - but for a very small sample.
  
 There seem to be hints from Ayre that they regard the Codex DAC to be the equal of the QB-9 DSD.
  
 As for R2R DACs like the Yggy. I've heard the Yggy/Ragnarok combo at a meet, but it's hard to say critically. I will say I was not enamored of the Schiit house sound. A bit too bright and forward with my HD800. In contrast, I heard the Resolution (?) Cantata feeding a Cavalli Liquid Gold, which was a very sweet combo indeed.
  
 For me, R2R DACs are not practical because about 20% of my 1000+ album collection is DSD, so for me native DSD support (or DoP) is a must.
  
 Ultimately - I prefer not to be dogmatic about technology choices. For every Mike Moffat there is a Charlie Hansen. Rather, I let my ears be my guide. Isn't that what this is all about anyway?


----------



## yage

austinpop said:


> I've heard the Yggy/Ragnarok combo at a meet, but it's hard to say critically. I will say I was not enamored of the Schiit house sound. A bit too bright and forward with my HD800. In contrast, I heard the Resolution (?) Cantata feeding a Cavalli Liquid Gold, which was a very sweet combo indeed.


 
  
 Yeah at the last DC meet, I had a chance to listen to an HD 800 S on a Rag / Yggy setup. I found it less than ideal. The Schiit house sound (for the most part) is also not my cup of tea it seems.
  
  


austinpop said:


> Ultimately - I prefer not to be dogmatic about technology choices. For every Mike Moffat there is a Charlie Hansen. Rather, I let my ears be my guide. Isn't that what this is all about anyway?


 
  
 In complete agreement here.  I don't understand how anybody can dismiss a DAC out of hand simply because it uses delta-sigma rather than a resistor ladder to make the bits into music. Whatever floats your boat, I guess.


----------



## yage

kmanchu said:


> People seem to think the Codex either blows things out of the water at its pricepoint or else is very mediocre.


 
  
 Maybe Head-Fi'ers that heard it as mediocre listened at the wrong spot during the burn-in process...
  
  


kmanchu said:


> I had always heard the QB-9DSD had very good isolation of the USB input, but I still noticed different computers sounded different to me even when running identical software.


 
  
 I think there's definitely variability when it comes to quality of implementation of USB or any I/O interface for that matter. Case in point, I had *two* Meridian Explorer 2's die on me when used with my work computer. Both within months of receiving them brand-new. I've never experienced that before and I sincerely hope that PC won't be the death of the QB-9. I'd think, though, that Ayre's experience with the QB-9 would carry over to the Codex.
  
 One other interesting tidbit - I also bought an UpTone Audio USB REGEN to see if it improved the sound coming from the QB-9. I think it actually made it sound just a smidge *worse*. Swapping out the stock power cord for a homemade VenHaus design (flavor #1) actually made a positive difference here (a little more texture / low-level resolution).
  
 I think I'll have to talk with my dealer as well (like @austinpop) and see if he'll agree to loan me the Codex over the weekend for a head-to-head.


----------



## music_man

i have the ax5 twenty powering the new sf extrema's. i think it sounds incredible to me. i guess it is just each persons ears. there is no fit all equipment at any price. a r2r dac for 2 grand is impressive just on paper though. i hate to inform you i traded the qb-9 dsd for the codex. had both here. i felt the codex was a little better in some areas and lacking in none. i found on another forum a guy that concurs and i am not even on that forum. just google ayre qb-9 dsd vs. codex. i hate to bring you that news but honestly you may like the qb-9 better anyways. just cannot go wrong with ayre. this is seriously totl stuff. don't let the codex fool you. it punches way above it's belt. it is just stripped down to save cost. the ax5 twenty is certainly no slouch. my speakers could use more power but i only listen at like 50db ever. mj acoustics sub fills in nicely. it is just 10" + radiator but i do not believe it goes to 13hz as they claim. maybe 20 which is fine for me. very happy with this setup. plus i saw pro reviews that said the dac is the best they ever heard! i am very sure i will not return this.


----------



## cygnusx

music_man said:


> i have the ax5 twenty powering the new sf extrema's. i think it sounds incredible to me. i guess it is just each persons ears. there is no fit all equipment at any price. a r2r dac for 2 grand is impressive just on paper though. i hate to inform you i traded the qb-9 dsd for the codex. had both here. i felt the codex was a little better in some areas and lacking in none. i found on another forum a guy that concurs and i am not even on that forum. just google ayre qb-9 dsd vs. codex. i hate to bring you that news but honestly you may like the qb-9 better anyways. just cannot go wrong with ayre. this is seriously totl stuff. don't let the codex fool you. it punches way above it's belt. it is just stripped down to save cost. the ax5 twenty is certainly no slouch. my speakers could use more power but i only listen at like 50db ever. mj acoustics sub fills in nicely. it is just 10" + radiator but i do not believe it goes to 13hz as they claim. maybe 20 which is fine for me. very happy with this setup. plus i saw pro reviews that said the dac is the best they ever heard! i am very sure i will not return this.




I think a lot of the music has to do with ones music preference but in my opinion the Ayre Codex is a unique product at its price range. I've heard many DACs up to $5k in price but settled on the Codex. The sound to me is unbelievable with the right equipment. The other DACs just did not compare. I heard the QB-9 but on the same equipment setup and I could not tell the difference. Maybe my ears are not as well tuned as you guys but I'm super happy with my purchase and I feel like I got it at a bargain. Plus, it's like having an extra heater in the winter, it's a two in one product.


----------



## austinpop

cygnusx said:


> I think a lot of the music has to do with ones music preference but in my opinion the Ayre Codex is a unique product at its price range. I've heard many DACs up to $5k in price but settled on the Codex. The sound to me is unbelievable with the right equipment. The other DACs just did not compare. I heard the QB-9 but on the same equipment setup and I could not tell the difference. Maybe my ears are not as well tuned as you guys but I'm super happy with my purchase and I feel like I got it at a bargain. Plus, it's like having an extra heater in the winter, it's a two in one product.




I am really glad to hear these positive comparisons.

I now have my own Codex on order. My review that I referenced a few days ago was with a burned-in demo from my dealer, which I couldn't get him to sell me. Now I'll have to live with the whole 500 hour burn-in cycle.  First world problems!

My Codex will be doing initial duty as a DAC/Amp driving my HD800. But come fall, I hope to take delivery of a Cavalli Liquid Gold amp, with the Codex now serving as a pure DAC. I think that system will sound really amazing!


----------



## cygnusx

austinpop said:


> I am really glad to hear these positive comparisons.
> 
> I now have my own Codex on order. My review that I referenced a few days ago was with a burned-in demo from my dealer, which I couldn't get him to sell me. Now I'll have to live with the whole 500 hour burn-in cycle.  First world problems!
> 
> My Codex will be doing initial duty as a DAC/Amp driving my HD800. But come fall, I hope to take delivery of a Cavalli Liquid Gold amp, with the Codex now serving as a pure DAC. I think that system will sound really amazing!




I used tried using the HD650 for a few days, connected directly to the Codex. The headphones are pretty power hungry. So if the HD800 are similar, don't be surprised. I use my Codex as my main dac into my Cronus Magnum 2 amp. I'm still looking for the perfect headphones for use in balanced mode. I'm currently using a Grado GH1, love it but not great for critical listening, plus I want something that I can connect directly in balanced mode. Im going to try a re-wired for balanced Massdrop Fostex Th-00x next.


----------



## austinpop

cygnusx said:


> I used tried using the HD650 for a few days, connected directly to the Codex. The headphones are pretty power hungry. So if the HD800 are similar, don't be surprised. I use my Codex as my main dac into my Cronus Magnum 2 amp. I'm still looking for the perfect headphones for use in balanced mode. I'm currently using a Grado GH1, love it but not great for critical listening, plus I want something that I can connect directly in balanced mode. Im going to try a re-wired for balanced Massdrop Fostex Th-00x next.




See my review here: http://www.head-fi.org/products/ayre-acoustics-codex-headphone-amplifier-dac-preamp/reviews/15502

The Codex actually synergies very sweetly with the HD800. I ran it balanced. The only thing it lacks is prodigious power, but not much else. I was surprised how good of an amp it is. I always expected it to be an exceptional DAC.


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## cygnusx

austinpop said:


> See my review here: http://www.head-fi.org/products/ayre-acoustics-codex-headphone-amplifier-dac-preamp/reviews/15502
> 
> The Codex actually synergies very sweetly with the HD800. I ran it balanced. The only thing it lacks is prodigious power, but not much else. I was surprised how good of an amp it is. I always expected it to be an exceptional DAC.


Thanks...nice review. I considered the HD800 but it's bit out my price range especially with the premium cables. I've already spent way too much money this year on audio equipment. I did see the refurbished HD800s on crutchfield for $999. Honestly though...I didn't really like the HD650 sound and the HP felt very tight on my big head . Is the HD800 significantly better than the HD650 to justify the price? Maybe I'm just not be a Sennhesier house sound fan. Anybody try using an Audeze lcd with the Codex? Would love to hear your feedback. Thx


----------



## austinpop

I know both cans well, as I owned a HD650 for many years before selling it and moving up to the HD800. The two are very different. The HD650 has a dark, warm sound - the famous Sennheiser veil! The HD800 is quite the opposite. It has the best imaging, articulation, and resolution I've heard, at the expense of what many consider an excessive brightness - the famous 6kHz peak.
  
 In all fairness, really good amps (like the Codex and the Cavalli Liquid Gold) render this a a non-issue. Go read Tyll's reviews on Inner Fidelity on both the HD800 and some simple mods, as well as his review of the HD800S.
  
 I also was bothered by the excessive pressure of the HD650. The HD800 on the other hand is the most comfortable of high-end headphones in my opinion.
  
 If I were buying today, I would get the HD800S. Yes - it's more expensive at $1699. BUT - you get a Sennheiser balanced cable for free. If you want to upgrade later to a Cardas or Moon or Kimber, you can sell the Senn cable to recoup some of the cost, but this gets you balanced from the get go. If you're handy, want to save some bucks, and fancy a couple of easy mods, you could pick up a used HD800 and apply the mods. This is the path I took, since I already had an HD800 and didn't fancy the extra expense of selling the 800 and buying the 800S.
  
 Before you ask - I have the HD800 with the Anaxilus mod (trapezoid). I'm waiting on the Super Dupont mod also described on Inner Fidelity. My balanced cable is Moon Audio Black Dragon.


----------



## cygnusx

austinpop said:


> I know both cans well, as I owned a HD650 for many years before selling it and moving up to the HD800. The two are very different. The HD650 has a dark, warm sound - the famous Sennheiser veil! The HD800 is quite the opposite. It has the best imaging, articulation, and resolution I've heard, at the expense of what many consider an excessive brightness - the famous 6kHz peak.
> 
> In all fairness, really good amps (like the Codex and the Cavalli Liquid Gold) render this a a non-issue. Go read Tyll's reviews on Inner Fidelity on both the HD800 and some simple mods, as well as his review of the HD800S.
> 
> ...


Based on your comments, I think may need to audition a set. Thanks


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## KmanChu

I brought my Codex to a meet a few weeks ago and got to hear it with an HD800 but it was SE only. It sounded really nice though. It got loud enough for me at the meet with the SE output and there was a lot of ambient noise and I suspect I turned it up far louder than I normally would have. It left an impression, I am considering getting an HD800 to drive balanced direct.
  
 I use an LCD-3F with the Codex. The volume setting generally runs in the 60-80 range with most material. It sounds very nice and I use it this way quite a bit. However, I do prefer my tube-hybrid amp, which is quite a bit more powerful and does seem to drive the headphones with more authority.


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## austinpop

I don't want to oversell the HD800S, even though it's my favorite. In that $1k-2k range, there are some outstanding phones. 
  
 Consider:

Audeze LCD-_n_
Enigmacoustics Dharma
MrSpeakers Ether and Ether-C
HifiMan
Oppo PM-1
  
 to name a few.


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## cygnusx

austinpop said:


> I don't want to oversell the HD800S, even though it's my favorite. In that $1k-2k range, there are some outstanding phones.
> 
> Consider:
> 
> ...


 

 Thank you for the all the good insight guys.  Can you guys recommend a few in the $500-$1000 range that might be good to use in balanced mode with the Codex?


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## austinpop

I haven't tried it with the Codex, but I did like the Oppo PM-2. But keep in mind a good balanced cable will run you a few hundred $$ too.
  
 Hearing good things about the Audeze SINE. Not sure about the EL-8. And not sure either of those can do balanced.


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## music_man

you guys will probably find this odd but a select few agree. i find the grado ps1000e the most resolving headphones at any price. that is their forte. they don't do much else fantastic though. other departments are good to mediocre. it has the grado house sound but it is different than grados below it. if you have 2 grand to spend i would not leave out at least listening to it. most dealers have a demo of it. it is certainly not a headphone i would buy sight unseen. if you want otherworldly detail these do that imo. many disagree on that and just hate them overall. a few people think they are the absolute best. i have not tried them with the codex but i guess i can pull them out of the closet. they do have a custom balanced cable made by me but i will need to use 1/4 to 1/8 adapters i should have some furutechs on hand. also to be honest i cannot see powering 2+ grand headphones with the codes. i feel it is first and foremost a dac. a darn good one at that. for headphones t that level i would much prefer a proper amp. the headamp is probably not much of codex circuit topolgy but is good. similar to what benchmark did. a small board but pretty decent amp. on the other hand a 3+ grand amp should certainly be better than the codex. a $500 amp, depends on the amp i guess. as a dac i agree it is surprisingly good. besting 5 and even 10 grand dacs here. however it cannot compete with the diamond dac v. let's be fair though. i think the fact i feel it is better than the direct stream speaks volumes. also better than bryston and nad offerings imo. i was very surprised. should not have been though. ayre will not build something it is worthy of their name. it just so happens this is a "cheap" component from that brand. i do hope they make something full size. on that note once again i as well feel it is better than the qb-9 dsd. they kind of overstepped themselves there. if something new is introduced i expect it will be even better. it is like acura always introduces the tl/x before the rl/x. so for a few months the tl/x is actually a nicer car. most companies try to avoid that scenario but some embrace it. i figure ayre just wanted to get their baby to market asap. without a replacement for the qb-9 dsd yet. when it comes i have no doubt it bests the codex. does not matter because the codex aims way higher than it's price. still shreds some 10 grand dacs. there is only one pathetic thing suggesting they did race this to market. the drivers are for windows 7! you can run them up to windows10 in comparability i just think that part is bs though. thesycon has 3.34 drivers already and i do not think ayre will update it. i am using them but i will not distribute a reverse engineered driver. otherwise i think this is one fine dac fot twice the price. the headamp i would equate to some $500 dedicated headamp but not much better than that. still, it is a big package for the money. it has no problem with the ax5 twenty which is many times the codex price. no surprise there. it is the same company. ayre is high end regardless of it being a bargain.. .


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## cygnusx

At about 450 hours of burn-in, I'm happy to report that the Codex is performing beyond my expectation. I'm my opinion it's the best DAC hands down for less than $10k. I haven't listen to any DACs more expensive


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## sheldaze

cygnusx said:


> At about 450 hours of burn-in, I'm happy to report that the Codex is performing beyond my expectation. I'm my opinion it's the best DAC hands down for less than $10k. I haven't listen to any DACs more expensive


 
 The Ayre QB-9 DSD is alright - it's made by a pretty good company too


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## music_man

+1 sygnus. concur 100%. going to be hard to beat at under 10 grand. sort of like that teac is hard to beat under 2 grand. nice to see some companies really want to knock it out of the park. sorry to report the qb-9 dsd is not as good as the codex. a/b'd them many times in a row in fact blind but not double blind. i could easily tell the difference. got it right every time. others including the salesman that would have made more money selling me the qb-9 dsd fully agree. i am sure they will come out with a better one for more money don't worry. some usb filtering ahead of it improves it even more. according to ayre it should not but i feel it does. try it at 700 hours! this is really something. at this price point nothing else can even touch it imo. the other companies are going to need to up their game in the under 2 grand segment imo. i understand if someone owns the qb-9 dsd they are going to be unhappy about this but it is not my fault!


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## austinpop

I'm seeing some weird issues with files at 24-bit/252.8kHz.
  
Last night I was listening to some free music files I downloaded from here: http://www.2l.no/hires/. These files can be freely downloaded, as per the terms at the top of the page
 
I listened to various pieces of music at various encodings: DXD (24/352.8), as well as DSD64, DSD128 and MQA.
 
The Codex, while it will lock to and play the 24/352.8 files, the resulting audio out of the headphone jacks has a weird kind of static - almost like an input signal overload. I do not hear that with the other encodings.
 
I should also point out that these are not the dropouts or stuttering you hear when the upstream device - in my case, an Aries Mini streamer - encounters network bandwidth limitations. In fact, the network demands of both the DXD and DSD128 files are similar (~11Mb/s), and the DSD128 plays just fine.
 
Here are the specific files where I noticed this problem:
http://www.lindberg.no/hires/test/2L-109_stereo_352k_05.flac
http://www.lindberg.no/hires/test/2L-087_stereo-DXD_06.flac
http://www.lindberg.no/hires/test/2L-053_04_stereo-DXD.flac
 
Have any other Codex owners seen anything like this? Feel free to give it a try and report back on what you hear!
 
BTW - the samples on that 2L site are absolutely lovely! I don't know most of the pieces, and certainly not any of the performers, but the acoustics and sound quality are superb.


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## cygnusx

Are you sure, it's not your player feeding the Codex?  I just tried to play these files through my OPPO player and all the files failed to play.  It was like the songs were playing in super slow motion.  The Codex also kept showing 44.   When I tried to play the files using VLC player on my Mac, it also failed and crashed.  Mplayerx was able to play all three files.  I haven't tried BitPerfect via itunes.  Unfortunately, I can't connect my workstation mac to the Codex via USB to test.  Maybe it's the Aries Mini is not able to handle and play this file type.  You should call Ayre and ask them.  I would not be surprise if Dan who usually picks up the phone...tests the files himself.  A bunch of really nice guys over there at Ayre.


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## austinpop

I can't speak to the problems you're having. Since you can't feed any bitrates greater than 192 through optical, I am assuming you're using USB? I am feeding the 352.8kHz files through USB, and the Codex correctly displays the bit rate.
  
 I did hear back from Alex @ Ayre. It's not the Aries Mini. They think this is a known issue on the Codex from an earlier version of the firmware, which has since been fixed.
  
 Awaiting further details.


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## austinpop

BTW - I don't think the Oppo supports DXD, which may explain why you couldn't use it as a source.
  
 The Aries Mini explicitly supports up to 32/384.


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## cygnusx

Sorry. I got the names confused...That's right his name was Alex. Currently, I don't connect via USB. I'm looking at either getting an Aries or a Mac mini at some point. What version of the firmware are you using?


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## austinpop

The unit I have is a loaner from the dealer until my ordered one comes in.

The firmware version on this unit shows "r1.2". I don't yet know whether a) the hypothesized fix actually solves the problem, and b) whether it's reflected in a distinct firmware version.

What firmware do people have on their units?


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## cygnusx

I'm running "r1.2" on my mine.  FYI..They told me that it was the latest version.


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## eddprzz

cygnusx said:


> Thank you for the all the good insight guys.  Can you guys recommend a few in the $500-$1000 range that might be good to use in balanced mode with the Codex?


 I don't know If anyone has said this combo but the lcd-3 balanced on the codex is simply wonderful would recommend trying it using the lcd-2


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## KmanChu

eddprzz said:


> I don't know If anyone has said this combo but the lcd-3 balanced on the codex is simply wonderful would recommend trying it using the lcd-2


 
  
 I have been using a Codex with LCD-3F for about 2 months. I have a single ended input tube amp that I have generally preferred over using the balanced headphone out. But I think as the unit has more completely burned in that my preference is not so clear cut now. I had managed to get an alone day in the house to do some extended listening and my right channel cut out


----------



## eddprzz

kmanchu said:


> I have been using a Codex with LCD-3F for about 2 months. I have a single ended input tube amp that I have generally preferred over using the balanced headphone out. But I think as the unit has more completely burned in that my preference is not so clear cut now. I had managed to get an alone day in the house to do some extended listening and my right channel cut out


I completely agree with you I personally also use my microzotl tube amp with the lcd3 and it sounds so good


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## yage

kmanchu said:


> I had managed to get an alone day in the house to do some extended listening and my right channel cut out




Did the channel cut out on the Codex or the headphone? If the latter, I feel your pain - just sent in my pair of LCD-XC's to Audeze for defective right driver.


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## KmanChu

yage said:


> Did the channel cut out on the Codex or the headphone? If the latter, I feel your pain - just sent in my pair of LCD-XC's to Audeze for defective right driver.


 
 Not the Codex, switched the R and L cables at the Codex, same driver not playing on headphones. Switched cables at the headphone, same driver not playing on the headphones. It may not be a total driver failure though, it cuts back on momentarily if the wire gets pushed just the right way, seems like a bad solder joint. Normally I would fix this myself, but not willing to on a $2k headphone next to that driver while still under warranty.
  
 On another note, I got a chance to listen to an HD800 with the Codex at a meet a while back. After I get these back I may see if I can sell the LCD-3s to switch over to an HD800S. It was an obscenely good combo. As my Codex has continued to burn in my opinion of it as a headphone amp has skyrocketed. I am just about ready to sell my tube amp. I am getting suspicious that if the headphones are properly matched with the Codex, there may be nothing to gain by using just about any amp after it. I think the HD800/800S may just be that headphone. What I would like to do is have the HD800S and LCD-3 together for a few days and compare. I have really loved my LCD-3s, but having been struck by the seeming ubiquitous failures on the LCDs, I am starting to think about going to something else.


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## music_man

ayre told me the end user cannot change the firmware and if they manage to getting it somewhere else than from ayre it voids the warranty? still, i would at least like to check mine if not change it. where do i get this information? thanks


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## austinpop

music_man said:


> ayre told me the end user cannot change the firmware and if they manage to getting it somewhere else than from ayre it voids the warranty? still, i would at least like to check mine if not change it. where do i get this information? thanks


 
  
 That may well be. I'm still waiting to hear how they'll update the firmware.
  
 Are you asking how you tell what version your current firmware is? Just press and hold the knob until the display is flashing, then rotate it until you see something like "r1.2". That is the FW version.
  
 Documented here pages 12-14: https://www.ayre.com/manuals/Ayre_Codex_Manual.pdf


----------



## yage

kmanchu said:


> Not the Codex, switched the R and L cables at the Codex, same driver not playing on headphones. Switched cables at the headphone, same driver not playing on the headphones. It may not be a total driver failure though, it cuts back on momentarily if the wire gets pushed just the right way, seems like a bad solder joint. Normally I would fix this myself, but not willing to on a $2k headphone next to that driver while still under warranty.


 
  
 I went through the same troubleshooting steps on the XC's as well and the right driver was completely dead - no amount of fiddling with the cable would bring it back. I've no complaints about Audeze's customer service thus far, but you're right - it's frustrating nonetheless and gets expensive to keep sending headphones back for repair. I really need a nice set of sealed headphones and the XC's have been the best ones that fit the bill, so I'm kinda stuck at the moment.
  
 The Codex is simply phenomenal. I sometimes regret spending more money on my current setup (DNA Sonett 2 / QB-9 DSD). I still feel it edges out the Codex just a smidge, but the difference truly is miniscule and I have a hard time justifying the price differential, even after accounting for the fact that I bought both amp and DAC on the used market.


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## music_man

thank you austin.


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## music_man

i wish i knew why these are so hot. have not opened it. no pics on net. i can't even touch the thing. that is normal for it but i wonder what is in it. nonetheless the thing sounds sweet. i really like the sound of this one in 16/44.1 out the back xlr's to my speaker amp. i have not tried headphones with it because of mini jacks. it is lacking in connectivity as i have mentioned but this was built to a price from ayre. i imagine a flagship is forthcoming. in fact they have said so.


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## cygnusx

music_man said:


> i wish i knew why these are so hot. have not opened it. no pics on net. i can't even touch the thing. that is normal for it but i wonder what is in it. nonetheless the thing sounds sweet. i really like the sound of this one in 16/44.1 out the back xlr's to my speaker amp. i have not tried headphones with it because of mini jacks. it is lacking in connectivity as i have mentioned but this was built to a price from ayre. i imagine a flagship is forthcoming. in fact they have said so.


 If you look at Ayre's website and the FAQ provided, "perfectly normal. The heat comes from the Diamond output stage and pure analog power supply which we use in the Codex. This creates more heat, but it is a big part of the reason it sounds so good! ". I spoke to Alex about this over the phone because like you my unit wasn't just warm it was hot. He says its fine, enjoy the music. I ended it at that, I'm enjoying the music


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## KmanChu

music_man said:


> i it is lacking in connectivity as i have mentioned but this was built to a price from ayre. i imagine a flagship is forthcoming. in fact they have said so.


 
  
 This release about the coming Qx-5 Twenty:
  
 http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/ayre-acoustics-qx-5-twenty-%96-digital-hub-28422/


----------



## yage

kmanchu said:


> This release about the coming Qx-5 Twenty:
> 
> http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/ayre-acoustics-qx-5-twenty-%96-digital-hub-28422/


 
  
 Hmmm.... looks like I'll have to call up my dealer and ask some questions.


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## cygnusx

kmanchu said:


> This release about the coming Qx-5 Twenty:
> 
> http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/ayre-acoustics-qx-5-twenty-%96-digital-hub-28422/


 

 $9K is too rich for my blood   I'm pretty happy with the Codex.  On a different note, has anybody try changing the power cord on the Codex?  Does it help to improve the sound?


----------



## music_man

I am also not sure about 9 grand vs. the codex. the ess chip is probably about $30 to ayre. of course trhere is more that goes into it.alos has the wrong connectivity i am looking for i assume. it has a lot of connections for sure. wanted bnc aes/ebu and two or three balanced outs which i am doubting it has all that. it is geared toward streaming for 9 grand. strange. no doubt it will sound beter than the codex but for the price i would not really make us eof moist of it. not exactly the direction i hoped they were going in, nonetheless if it sounds outstanding i suppose i will get it anyw3ays. however i am sure that chip and it's accompanied oscillator will show up in much less expensive dacs. it says on ess site for "blu ray players" etc. i understand why the ayre is 9 grand but may or may not suit me. i will find out when it come sout. honestly though how good do we need our sound to be? i have the codes running in a six figure system and it sounds great. i just wanted more connections thats all. i think they may have put a lot but not what i am loking for unfortunately. audio is going in a completely different direction now. remember turntables? anyways, i figure if i like that chips sound i would probably just get a much less expensive dac that employs it. the diamond stage is noteworthy however. no doubt the ayre will sound better than a 2 grand device with the same chip but not sure it is worth it to me. i do have the diamond dac v and others so i am not shy about it but just not sure this went in the direction i wanted.


----------



## Rudivanb

cygnusx said:


> $9K is too rich for my blood   I'm pretty happy with the Codex.  On a different note, has anybody try changing the power cord on the Codex?  Does it help to improve the sound?


 

 Yes, in my set-up the Codex is letting me hear the differences between power cables. When I was comparing the stock power cord with a DIY version, which served me very well in the past, I preferred the stock.  An expensive cable might not sound better, you might end up perfectly happy with the stock cable 
  
 By the way, I have not posted my findings yet on the Codex' sound as I am still burning in with the balanced headphone output, about 300 hours now, 450 more to go, pfffhhh... However I am enjoying it a lot already.


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## music_man

very good cable anaconda hx did make a nice difference on it.


----------



## yage

cygnusx said:


> On a different note, has anybody try changing the power cord on the Codex?  Does it help to improve the sound?


 
  
 During a recent shoot-out between the QB-9 DSD and the Codex, I tried both with run-of-the-mill power cords and a DIY power cord ("flavor 1" from this website). I preferred the DIY cord to stock both times. I didn't A/B extensively, so I can't say what the differences were, just that I got the vague sense that something was slightly off with the stock cord.


----------



## KmanChu

One thing I know about Ayre stuff, is that it usually performs at a very high level for the price. Even the really expensive stuff, like the Ax-5 Twenty is a very good performer for the price (but I have a hard time describing something as a good "value" at $10k+.) The ethernet with RoonReady is a huge deal to a lot people as Roon already has a big and loyal following and is a brilliant interface with the tablet apps. This configuration allows you to get the computer out of the audio system. I am definitely not in the market for anything that expensive, however, maybe adding the newly available Sonore microRendu as an idealized USB source for the Codex just might get us a long way there.


----------



## yage

I think that if the QX-5 has a digital volume control, then it'd be an instant hit. That makes it much more versatile than the KX-5 for the same amount of money. If that were the case, I know I'd be sorely tempted to replace my AX-5 / C-5 setup with a QX-5 / VX-5. But just by looking at images of the front panel, I don't know if that will be the case. It does seem to have a built in headphone amp though, but that's not quite enough to get me to bite.


----------



## cygnusx

Can any of you guys tell me, if using the Codex as a DAC, if there is a big difference between the single ended outputs vs the balanced XLR outputs? (I connect the codex to my amp via RCAs) I know for sure that with HPs it makes a big difference. I'm starting to doubt the sound quality going into my main amp. I'm very content with the Pono HP outputs. Thanks


----------



## music_man

the balanced output as usual is a huge upgrade in sound quality. if you have a good balanced amp. however the rca's are very good on the codex. better than a lot of others. of course you are going to need good balanced cables too. i was told by alex at ayre that i should not have the se connected with the balanced as it wil ruin the sq. i hear no difference. it is sort of essential that i do. that is why i was looking for more connections. a bnc and aes/ebu would cetainly be welcome. although they might be lacking in the new flagship as wel. in favor of some new fangled connectivity. when i hear it though none of this may matter. ayre does tend to knock it out of the park even at high prices. the codex is just a breakthrough value right now. might be the cheapest thing ayre has ever made. don't know for sure.
  
 i do not have a problem with my fanless purpose built pc audio server. it is even on an isolation rack. my usb power is fully filtered and the codex does not even use usb power. i am fine with my pc. i do not feel i need some audiophile device to serve my music. not to mention it is probably not going to have my 36 terabytes of storage. all uncompressed rips to wav.
  
 i have the ax-5 twenty and i think it is a fantastic amp. i especially like the the volume control. i do not feel the new ayre dac has gone in the direction i wanted. not sure until i hear it. the diamond buffers go a long way for sound quality but i am guessing we will see that sabre dac chip in much less expensive devices i doubt they will sound as good but this dac just has a lot of connections i will not be using and the ones i would like do not seem to be going to be there. i am at no shortage of good dacs though so it doe snot really matter anyways.
  
 i will say the codex does beat the qb-9 dsd. that is exactly why they are coming out with a new dac i am sure. i am also sure they have upset a lot of people by doing that with the codex for less money.


----------



## yage

music_man said:


> a bnc and aes/ebu would cetainly be welcome.


 
  
 Not sure about BNC, but my guess is that it will have AES/EBU because that's how all their disc spinners output the bitstream from the transport.


----------



## music_man

i prefer spdif to toslink. the thing is rca cannot really properly carry that signal. that is why pro gear like benchmark(at least the dac1) has a bnc and aes/ebu. we don't need to debate the raca though okay? i am talking mainly about very high end stuff it matters. which to me 9 grand is. a rca on that would be at a loss to me. anyways i do not want the roon and everything or ethernet but i will just have to see how it sounds. knowing ayre it will obviously sound better than any $1,000 box that might employ the same sabre chip. so if it sounds good enough at the time it is released i may consider it anyhow. the thing is it is not even officially anounced yet let alone produced. honestly it seems not just ayre but all of this is not going in a direction that interests me. as i said i find my pc to be a great source but obviously my disc spinner is a better source. i mainly focus on my disc spinner. i am torn on the other end though. i have tens of thousands of lp's and a super high end vinyl spinner but i am just too old to bother with washing records, clamping them and such anymore. for me redbook cd's is all i am mainly interested in. in that regard right now even though i have better dacs the codex in my bedroom is a very fine dac. honestly it is an end game dac unless you are a very serious stickler. they really did something here for the price. of course the only downfall for me is i would have just loved more connections on it. that is exactly why it was built to a price though and does not have all that. on the other side of the coin i do not need half the stuff their forthcoming dac might have but it is the sound that will matter to me. get this, a few months ago i did not even know about ayre now i have the codex and an ax-5 twenty powering my little bedroom system. that amp does not put out gobs of power but it is fine for my needs. i turned out to be very impressed with my little bedroom setup.. well i am being an idiot anyways because i am talking about six figures of stuff but still using the codex in it and i find it fine. there is always room for improvement though. the big word here was compact however. in that regard besides it's sweet sound it fit's the bill. which is why i originally got it but turned out to be very impressed with it's sound to boot.


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## sheldaze

I've heard this several times, at meets and recently in a quiet, noise-free basement environment. There's just something different about owning and listening to this at home, with my own music and setup.
  
 It is nice!


----------



## BlackstoneJD

music_man said:


> the balanced output as usual is a huge upgrade in sound quality. if you have a good balanced amp. however the rca's are very good on the codex. better than a lot of others. of course you are going to need good balanced cables too. i was told by alex at ayre that i should not have the se connected with the balanced as it wil ruin the sq. i hear no difference. it is sort of essential that i do. that is why i was looking for more connections. a bnc and aes/ebu would cetainly be welcome. although they might be lacking in the new flagship as wel. in favor of some new fangled connectivity. when i hear it though none of this may matter. ayre does tend to knock it out of the park even at high prices. the codex is just a breakthrough value right now. might be the cheapest thing ayre has ever made. don't know for sure.
> 
> i do not have a problem with my fanless purpose built pc audio server. it is even on an isolation rack. my usb power is fully filtered and the codex does not even use usb power. i am fine with my pc. i do not feel i need some audiophile device to serve my music. not to mention it is probably not going to have my 36 terabytes of storage. all uncompressed rips to wav.
> 
> ...


 
 My dealer says the DAC portion alone beats the QB9-DSD but it does not beat the QB9 DSD with a dedicated headphone amp such as a Bryston BHA-1. In other words as a pure DAC it beats the QB9-DSD but it is not the best headphone amplifier.
  
 Now the new QX-5 Twenty...that could be a real beast but it is $9,000 I hear.


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## BlackstoneJD

Also regarding the value of QX-5 as discussed above, remember this is a reference DAC, headphone amplifier, digital preamplifier and media front end. It is doing the work of three or four components in a single chassis if I understand correctly. There is value there if you utilize all of those components.


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## yage

blackstonejd said:


> My dealer says the DAC portion alone beats the QB9-DSD but it does not beat the QB9 DSD with a dedicated headphone amp such as a Bryston BHA-1. In other words as a pure DAC it beats the QB9-DSD but it is not the best headphone amplifier.
> 
> Now the new QX-5 Twenty...that could be a real beast but it is $9,000 I hear.


 
  
 I've listened to both the Codex (in DAC only mode) and QB-9 DSD. I'd say that they're pretty much evenly matched, though I slightly, _very slightly_, preferred the QB-9 DSD. I honestly don't get why anyone would think the headphone amp section isn't up to snuff unless your dealer was trying to sell you a dedicated headphone amp as well (and why wouldn't he).
  
 I'm also very intrigued with the QX-5 Twenty and will be keeping my eyeballs peeled for more news, especially confirmation of digital preamp capability, as that opens up some intriguing possibilities for my speaker system.


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## music_man

for me this is near end game setup. i am not using the head amp and have not used it so i cannot say. when i listen to headphones i am sure i am using a much better amp than what is in it. not to be a snob. i am really a humble man seriously. i preferred  the codex as a dac on balanced much better than the qb-9. the ax-5 may be a different story. there is only one reason i am using the codex in my bedroom rather than the diamond dac v honestly. size. still, it is a great performer but obviously it is no the diamond dac v that is not fair. i like it fine. i would not doubt there are better stand alone head amps. they certainly put effort into the dac section though.here the size also matters so in both respects this was a nice find. i am using it with the ax-5 twenty as does ayre. so it must be up to snuff if they think that. notice they did not use the qb-9 in their demo now. to be fair it is just their new product but obviously they feel it is up there. look, i am sorry to qb-9 owners. technology progresses and gets cheaper. we all know that. as for the head amp mini jacks that are plastic i cannot even take it seriously. i have very high end headphones and amps but these days i only listen to ps1ke and ray samuels dark star with silver balanced cable mod. i am almost sure that is a better headphone amp but i have not even tried it. well, i did for like a minute with cheap phones i just wanted to check full functionality of the unit. i do not know about the head amp but right now i feel many people could stop at this dac. i think right now it is the best 2 grand dac and can knock some 5 grand dacs to their feet too.


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## BlackstoneJD

yage said:


> I've listened to both the Codex (in DAC only mode) and QB-9 DSD. I'd say that they're pretty much evenly matched, though I slightly, _very slightly_, preferred the QB-9 DSD. I honestly don't get why anyone would think the headphone amp section isn't up to snuff unless your dealer was trying to sell you a dedicated headphone amp as well (and why wouldn't he).
> 
> I'm also very intrigued with the QX-5 Twenty and will be keeping my eyeballs peeled for more news, especially confirmation of digital preamp capability, as that opens up some intriguing possibilities for my speaker system.


 
 Nobody said it was not up to snuff. They said it was not as good as my BHA-1 which I already own. That is a big beefy unit, however. The codex is rather small. I would not expect the Codex to beat a QB-9 and BHA-1 and apparently it doesn't. This new QX-5 Twenty is a beastly thing, however. I am curious whether the headphone amp on board is better than Codex or whether they just integrated a codex headphone amp in there. I mean generally all in one units are not masters at everything--separates are always better. I would not expect for example the QX-5 Twenty straight into a power amp to be as good as a QX-5 twenty into an AX-5 Twenty integrated.
  
 That is what is so interesting about the product. It is a dac, it is a preamp, it is a headphone amp, and it is a digital music front end which eliminates the need for a separate front end music player and even eliminates the need for PC. If it can take a USB thumb drive directly for example, that is tantamount to having a dedicated built for high end digital front end player. Bryston sells theirs BDP-2 music player (no dac, just handles the front end) for $3,000 alone.
  
 My dealer says a purpose built PC with software sounds better than an off the shelf PC as a music streamer for a USB dac.
  
 This could be a real monster sounding unit.


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## KmanChu

blackstonejd said:


> My dealer says the DAC portion alone beats the QB9-DSD but it does not beat the QB9 DSD with a dedicated headphone amp such as a Bryston BHA-1. In other words as a pure DAC it beats the QB9-DSD but it is not the best headphone amplifier.
> 
> Now the new QX-5 Twenty...that could be a real beast but it is $9,000 I hear.


 
  
 I think that statement would depend upon which headphones you are trying to power. I am pretty certain the headphone amp and the DAC output stage are the same output devices. The Codex does have a limitation on outright power, but with a headphone that does not require gobs of current such as the HD800, then I would bet you would have a hard time improving much with any other amp. (After plugging in some HD800's at a meet I am now looking for some. Even single-ended, I thought my codex outperformed any of the other setups at the meet with the HD800.) I found that as the Codex broke-in, it started to outperform my standalone tube amp. This could be, however, because my tube amp has only SE inputs and cannot run from the Codex's XLRs. But still, I think when matched properly with headphones, it would do very well in direct comparisons with just about any amp.


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## austinpop

kmanchu said:


> I think that statement would depend upon which headphones you are trying to power. I am pretty certain the headphone amp and the DAC output stage are the same output devices. The Codex does have a limitation on outright power, but with a headphone that does not require gobs of current such as the HD800, then I would bet you would have a hard time improving much with any other amp. (After plugging in some HD800's at a meet I am now looking for some. Even single-ended, I thought my codex outperformed any of the other setups at the meet with the HD800.) I found that as the Codex broke-in, it started to outperform my standalone tube amp. This could be, however, because my tube amp has only SE inputs and cannot run from the Codex's XLRs. But still, I think when matched properly with headphones, it would do very well in direct comparisons with just about any amp.


 
  
 Amen, brother!
  
 I've already said in my review of the Codex (see my sig below for a link) how impressed I was with the Codex as a headphone amp. For those of you reporting what you've heard, or what your dealer said about the Codex's head amp - go and listen for you yourself, and don't rely on anyone else's word. Keep in mind, Ayre dealers are typically on the high-end of the spectrum, and they don't necessarily know the head-amp space.
  
 I also use the Codex with the HD800. It's an amazing match, but there are some classical pieces in my DSD collection that require me to goose the volume up to almost 100. So yeah - it's finite power output is possibly the one down side.
  
@KmanChu The one amp I found that significantly outperforms the Codex with the HD800, for me, is the Cavalli Liquid Gold (LAu). Of course, we're talking a $4k amp. But I've got one on order, and can't wait to pair it with the Codex as a balanced DAC. My sincere expectation is that the Codex DAC feeding the Cavalli LAu driving the HD800 will be a truly end-game headphone solution.
  
 Until then, I'm more than happy with my Codex -> HD800 setup!


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## music_man

i think it is a better dac than qb-9 dsd and bha-1. don't know about the headphone amp but doubt it is as good as a high end amp. this is the usual dac with a headamp stuck on i imagine. as a dac it is plenty good out of the balanced outputs. the forthcoming offering from ayre is probably not exactly what i am looking for. i feel a dac should be just a dac. they want to stick in a headamp boartd fine. i personally am not interested in all that other stuff. to me a hifgh end pc music server does sound very good. how many wav files are you going to put on a thumb drive for instance? i have 36 terabytes on here. 2 terabytes i read into ssd.
  
 something interesting here. ayre claims this does not use +5v power. i am using a usb power supply. it provides it's own clean power. which is the problem with pc's. ton of noise on the +5v supply. so i accidentally unplugged the power to the usb psu tonight. jriver stopped with an error. i could not get the codex to function with no +5v power present. so good thing mine is clean. i figured that. it probably just uses it for handshake but it is present. not sure where it goes in the codex after that. if that is even the case but it definitely requires the +5v power. so much for that. i would not be plugging your usb cable into the back of a pc then. just my opinion.


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## jhljhl

I owned both but I preferred the qb-9 DSD since I mostly listen to classical. I thought as a DAC the codex was more fun sounding for rock. But for classical qb-9 was a little more refined. The codex is a very good 2 in 1 I wonder how it compares to the Brooklyn or Manhattan?


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## music_man

that might explain it. I listen to light rock/pop and progressive jazz. I can see how the qb-9 dsd may be more resolving at classical. codex has a newer chip but as we all know the chip hardly makes a dac. manhattan might be a stretch but I would not be entirely surprised if codex was up there. that is a very nice dac.


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## BlackstoneJD

I ordered a QX-5 Twenty so I should have it by July. Someone is going to end up with my QB-9 DSD cheap...
  
 Apparently the volume control on the QX-5 is 32 bits and quite a bit of thought has gone into the digital preamplifier functionality. Also the headphone amp is supposed to be world class. I will report back when I have it.


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## oneway23

Hello, my friends...question for all of you currently enjoying your Codex devices..
  
 I currently own a Pono and I absolutely adore it.  I run the Pono in balanced mode with my Mr. Speakers Ether.
  
 In terms of sound quality, for those who may own both, is the Codex essentially a desktop-based Pono?
  
 I'm pretty sure I expect the sound "signature" to be similar, for obvious reasons, but can I expect a significant improvement in sound quality by using a Codex in balanced mode mode running to my Focal CMS65s via XLR?
  
 If not, I already have the ability to run my Pono in balanced mode via my dual 3.5->to XLR cables, so it wouldn't make a great deal of sense, in that case.


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## sheldaze

Up front, I am not the best impartial customer. I own and like the Codex very much! I've been treating the Codex to the 300 hours recommended burn-in, and each day I listen to it, the harder it gets to discern the difference between it and my current favorite DAC, the Schiit Yggdrasil. I also recently completed a burn-in session on my Pono. But then I sold the headphones that I was using to baseline its sound, my HiFiMan HE-400i headphones.
  
 Are you a fan of HDtracks? Is there something free from one of their sampler discs, which I could load onto the Pono. I'll take a close listen between it and the same on the Codex, using one of my balanced headphones - you pick because I'm not familiar with the sonic quality of the Focal CMS65s or your musical taste. I have EL-8C, HD650, HD800, HD800S, and HE-1000, all with balanced cables. Using a song from your pick and headphones that most closely resemble, I'll listen to both Pono and Codex. And I'll tell you what I hear.
  
 But in my experiences, the Codex has been several tiers better than the Pono in every way possible. I've used single-ended headphone output, balanced headphone output, and single-ended DAC output (to compare Pono line output with unbalanced output from the Codex - and note that balanced DAC output is what I'm currently using from the Codex, which does not exist on Pono). In every test, the Codex was smoother and more resolving. I expect my experience with a track you are familiar to be no different.


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## yage

blackstonejd said:


> I ordered a QX-5 Twenty so I should have it by July. Someone is going to end up with my QB-9 DSD cheap...
> 
> Apparently the volume control on the QX-5 is 32 bits and quite a bit of thought has gone into the digital preamplifier functionality. Also the headphone amp is supposed to be world class. I will report back when I have it.


 
  
 Wow, even my dealer was on the fence about laying out the cash for a demo unit. I don't blame him since he also carries Linn which has its own line of streamers / digital preamps.
  
 I think whatever Ayre designs and manufactures has a lot of thought behind it. I know talk of a multi-input DAC has spanned several years now (I first read some rumblings over on, of all places, a DX-5 thread at AVSForum).
  
 Looking forward to the comparo between the QB-9 DSD and the QX-5 Twenty!


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## cygnusx

oneway23 said:


> Hello, my friends...question for all of you currently enjoying your Codex devices..
> 
> I currently own a Pono and I absolutely adore it.  I run the Pono in balanced mode with my Mr. Speakers Ether.
> 
> ...


 Dont forget that the Codex uses Ayre's Diamond output stage and pure analog power supply helping to give its great sound.


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## oneway23

sheldaze said:


> Up front, I am not the best impartial customer. I own and like the Codex very much! I've been treating the Codex to the 300 hours recommended burn-in, and each day I listen to it, the harder it gets to discern the difference between it and my current favorite DAC, the Schiit Yggdrasil. I also recently completed a burn-in session on my Pono. But then I sold the headphones that I was using to baseline its sound, my HiFiMan HE-400i headphones.
> 
> Are you a fan of HDtracks? Is there something free from one of their sampler discs, which I could load onto the Pono. I'll take a close listen between it and the same on the Codex, using one of my balanced headphones - you pick because I'm not familiar with the sonic quality of the Focal CMS65s or your musical taste. I have EL-8C, HD650, HD800, HD800S, and HE-1000, all with balanced cables. Using a song from your pick and headphones that most closely resemble, I'll listen to both Pono and Codex. And I'll tell you what I hear.
> 
> But in my experiences, the Codex has been several tiers better than the Pono in every way possible. I've used single-ended headphone output, balanced headphone output, and single-ended DAC output (to compare Pono line output with unbalanced output from the Codex - and note that balanced DAC output is what I'm currently using from the Codex, which does not exist on Pono). In every test, the Codex was smoother and more resolving. I expect my experience with a track you are familiar to be no different.


 
  
 Wow, Sheldaze, that's really great of you to offer...I appreciate that very much.  I absolutely love Schitt's products, and I am absolutely heartbroken that my out-of-warranty Bifrost Uber has recently passed into the great beyond.  I've been looking very seriously at the Gumby as a desktop replacement, so, to hear you state that the Codex, in your opinion, plays in a similar realm to the much vaunted Yggy is really encouraging!
  
 I am definitely a fan of HDTracks and I do, in fact, have their free sampler.  I'm a fan of such a diverse array of styles, but, in this case, how about either Steve Vai's "Louisiana Swamp Swank" (track 3) or Dave Davies "Come to the River (track 4)?
  
 My headphones are Mr. Speakers Ether, always run balanced out of the Pono...I _suppose _the HE-1000s would be a fair comparison?  The Ethers are pretty neutral, and the Focals are studio monitors, so they're also pretty flat as far as frequency response goes.  Thanks again!


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## oneway23

cygnusx said:


> Dont forget that the Codex uses Ayre's Diamond output stage and pure analog power supply helping to give its great sound.


 
  
 At the risk of sounding uninformed, I'm admittedly not sure how impressive that is or what it all means, unfortunately, but, Diamond output certainly sounds exciting! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 I love that there's always something new to learn!


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## cygnusx

oneway23 said:


> At the risk of sounding uninformed, I'm admittedly not sure how impressive that is or what it all means, unfortunately, but, Diamond output certainly sounds exciting!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 FYI...I read this post a while back. It very technical but interesting.  Posted by Charlie Hansen himself.  
 http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/amp/messages/18/185962.html


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## jhljhl

oneway23 said:


> At the risk of sounding uninformed, I'm admittedly not sure how impressive that is or what it all means, unfortunately, but, Diamond output certainly sounds exciting!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 Well, diamonds are forever...
  

  
  

 Found this too.
  
 Hope it helps.


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## oneway23

cygnusx said:


> FYI...I read this post a while back. It very technical but interesting.  Posted by Charlie Hansen himself.
> http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/amp/messages/18/185962.html


 
  
 This was intense....amazing, but intense...wow!...Thanks for posting this!
  
 I gave it the ol' college try...


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## music_man

I, and ayre feel the codex is much better than the pono.
 i wonder if linn has a competing product? there stuff has always been very simple and nice. i am sure it would be in at least the same price range so why is he afraid of laying out the cash?
 so does the ax-5 use a rotary encoder to a 32 bit dsp chip? many people prefer the fancy resistor ladders. the dsp chips are very advanced, honestly less problematic and more precise. if that is in fact what they are using. many companies later found dsp chips operated better. sure, they are cheap parts compared to resistor ladders but that means nothing. go get the resistor ladder full of 10 years of dust and animal dander. i may have put my foot in my mouth here because i am not even sure that is what they are using but how would a resistor ladder be "32 bits"?
 also is there anything after ax-5? i get this confused with the ax-5 twenty integrated amp. which i have and love. the proof for me will only be in the sound. however this seems to have a lot of stuff i will not use and some things i would use it is lacking. it will be interesting to compare the sound to the codex but it does have a newer dac chip. just as the codex has a newer dac chip than the qb-9 dsd and i feel overall the codex is somewhat better. iu could have taken either one after 3 hours of listening but choose the codex. that very well may not be the case with the ax-5. i certainly hope they concentrated on sq and not just the latest technology. don't worry, i have confidence in ayre. the fact they pullede off the codex for $1,800 is very nice in itself. it is imo a reference quality dac.


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## yage

Linn moved to digital streamers with digital volume control a long time ago. You can see them here - http://linn.co.uk/hifi-separates/network-music-players/.
  
 The AX-5 / Twenty is a special amp. It does use resistors to control the volume, but not by attenuating the input signal as is the case in most preamps / integrated amps. Rather, each 'click' you hear as you turn the volume knob swaps in resistors of different values from the pair of Shallco rotary switches at the back of the amp to control the gain of the entire amplifier. Below is a picture of them:
  

  
 There is no preamp gain stage; this is about as pure a signal path as you can make it. The design also has the unique distinction of lowering the noise floor the more you turn down the volume. In more typical circuit designs, maximum signal to noise ratio is only achieved when the volume is set to its maximum.
  
 You're right that a digital volume control is more reliable in the long run and has the potential to sound and measure better than a mechanical solution. Ivor Tiefenbrun (founder of Linn) said as much when I attended an event at my local dealer a few months ago. I'm sure whatever solution Ayre uses in the QX-5 Twenty is top notch. I think they use the built-in digital volume control of the ESS 9018K2M for the Codex.


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## music_man

yes, i know this about the ax-5 twenty. i have one right here. i meant their new digital flagship. do they call it qx-5 twenty? i was wondering if that piece will use a digital volume control. from what you just said i assume it will use the volume control in the dac chip. of course we will not know until it is released. honestly i prefer it. i really do not look forward to ever having to replace the control in the ax-5 twenty! plus we both agree digital controls measure scores better. indeed, they did that because it is the purist path. although perhaps there are some trade offs. i am sure they felt it was the best option and is what differentiates them from the competition. also part of what makes that amp costly. classe and i think simaudio use digital volume controls with rotary encoders. sure, the parts are cheap but they often provide good results if implemented properly. i am not bashing the ax-5 twenty but defending digital volume controls in general. people think they are cheap, well because they are cheap. they can do good and most high end brands are using them. just for a joke the cambridge 840a was a disaster. which is why with the 851 they went to a digital control. you certainly cannot build mechanical controls on the cheap and i guess cambridge for one learned that lesson. i am a big fan of shalco regardless. honestly they both have their place. i would say in a digital front end or digital player you are going to get better snr with the digital control where it might matter.


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## music_man

just an fyi. codex in fact does not use +5vusb power as i had thought. just as ayre says. i am not sure why jriver had crashed before. just removed and reapplied +5vusb several times with no issue.
 so my vaunix brick is a waste other than my cable is not long enough. not sure if the brick even has any derogatory affect on the sound then. i figure with the brick i should leave the powewr plugged in though as it has active circuitry.


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## BlackstoneJD

As I mentioned above, I ordered a QX-5. The QX-5 Twenty does have digital volume control. Dealer said the product is designed to be sent directly to a power amp. Also it should be noted that some reviews of Codex have lauded how good it sounds straight into an amp. Of course a really, really good line level pre would probably be a plus, but the expectation is this is going to be a killer DAC straight into the amp. Worse case scenario, it becomes their best DAC but you still need a pre or headphone amp. I doubt that will be the case, because I suspect that the preamp or headphone amplifier that would best it would be fantastically expensive.
  
 The question becomes, to the put the question in Ayre terms, if you have a QX-5 Twenty, does it make more sense to pair it with an AX-5 Twenty and use the DAC in DAC only mode, or does it make more sense to feed it directly into a VX-5 Twenty (Power Amp). It would be nice to have that choice, and there is a possibility that for owners of the QX-5 Twenty, the AX-5 Twenty becomes unnecessary and you only need a good power amp.  
  
 The QX-5 appears to implement an entirely new crystal oscillator for the clock. From my experience improvements to the clock or adding an external word clock can be a massive improvement in and of itself. They are also using an entirely new DAC chip. The ethernet functionality might also be a step up in sound quality from async USB. A lot of things might come together to make this unit really killer. Or, it could only end up being marginally better than QB-9 and Codex...but that is unlikely. 
  
 QX-5 will be an end game DAC for me because you probably need such good speakers, amps, headphones, cables and room treatments to get the most out of it that by the time I get the rest of the system up to par, I will be old and deaf.
  
 I find it hard to believe that they are going to put out anything with the "Twenty" moniker that is not going to sound stupendous. They seemed to obsessed with making stuff that sounds good.
  
 At that price it should perform on par or better with a dCS Debussy.
  
 I suppose it is possible they will replace QB-9 DSD with something new and improved at the $3,000 price point but perhaps not if the new paradigm includes multiple inputs and volume control.


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## yage

blackstonejd said:


> The question becomes, to the put the question in Ayre terms, if you have a QX-5 Twenty, does it make more sense to pair it with an AX-5 Twenty and use the DAC in DAC only mode, or does it make more sense to feed it directly into a VX-5 Twenty (Power Amp). It would be nice to have that choice, and there is a possibility that for owners of the QX-5 Twenty, the AX-5 Twenty becomes unnecessary and you only need a good power amp.


 
  
 I think it makes sense if your setup is pure digital to pair the QX-5 Twenty with the VX-5 Twenty. The only reason to have a line-level preamp, IMO, is to accommodate sources that don't have a digital output. Otherwise you're just adding unnecessary noise to the signal path and spending beaucoup bucks to do it.
  
 I'm definitely interested in a head-to-head between my C-5 and the QX-5. I know the C-5 is long in the tooth, but every time I listen to it, I can't really imagine a source sounding better. Of course, I said the same thing when I bought my AX-5 and then the Twenty update came out...


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## KmanChu

blackstonejd said:


> I suppose it is possible they will replace QB-9 DSD with something new and improved at the $3,000 price point but perhaps not if the new paradigm includes multiple inputs and volume control.


 
  
 My dealer said that his expectation was for the QB-9 to be discontinued and essentially replaced by the Codex at their lower end.


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## yage

I believe the words my dealer used were "the QB-9 is not long for this world."


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## BlackstoneJD

yage said:


> I believe the words my dealer used were "the QB-9 is not long for this world."


 
 It is true. The Codex, from everything I have heard is better. Sigh. That is called progress. I can't complain. If they can make an $1,800 dac with headphone amplifier that is better than the QB-9 DSD as a straight DAC, that is progress. That is a company that is not holding its technology for ransom. They learned a lot since QB-9 launched, obviously, and they incorporated it into the Codex. A used QB-9 is probably a great deal, but if you are in the market for a new DAC, Codex is where it is at. My dealer said it is more than a bit better than the QB-9 DSD, it is a lot better than QB-9 and basically Ayre said they wouldn't be selling a lot of QB-9s going forward. It might not make sense to upgrade from QB-9 DSD to Codex, but my understanding is that dealer's position and I think Ayre's position is that QB-9 DSD is not as good a DAC as Codex as as straight DAC.
  
 But you don't buy a DAC as an investment. DACs are not a good place to park your money. A DAC is about the most discretionary purchase you can imagine. The formats change, the inputs change, you can't anticipate it. The analog components, speakers and phones are more future proof. A good line level pre, power amp or headphone amp never really becomes obsolete.
  
 QB-9 DSD is GOOD, however. It has no vices. I can't say that there is ANY aspect of its performance whatsoever that I find lacking in any way. It absolutely meets expectations. It lacks some modern functionality but it is a wicked good sounding DAC. I think it is astoundingly good. It just does not reflect the current state of the art. I suspect Codex is underrated as a DAC.


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## jhljhl

blackstonejd said:


> It is true. The Codex, from everything I have heard is better. Sigh. That is called progress. I can't complain. If they can make an $1,800 dac with headphone amplifier that is better than the QB-9 DSD as a straight DAC, that is progress. That is a company that is not holding its technology for ransom. They learned a lot since QB-9 launched, obviously, and they incorporated it into the Codex. A used QB-9 is probably a great deal, but if you are in the market for a new DAC, Codex is where it is at. My dealer said it is more than a bit better than the QB-9 DSD, it is a lot better than QB-9 and basically Ayre said they wouldn't be selling a lot of QB-9s going forward. It might not make sense to upgrade from QB-9 DSD to Codex, but my understanding is that dealer's position and I think Ayre's position is that QB-9 DSD is not as good a DAC as Codex as as straight DAC.
> 
> But you don't buy a DAC as an investment. DACs are not a good place to park your money. A DAC is about the most discretionary purchase you can imagine. The formats change, the inputs change, you can't anticipate it. The analog components, speakers and phones are more future proof. A good line level pre, power amp or headphone amp never really becomes obsolete.
> 
> QB-9 DSD is GOOD, however. It has no vices. I can't say that there is ANY aspect of its performance whatsoever that I find lacking in any way. It absolutely meets expectations. It lacks some modern functionality but it is a wicked good sounding DAC. I think it is astoundingly good. It just does not reflect the current state of the art. I suspect Codex is underrated as a DAC.


 
  
 I think QB-9 dsd is good for classical. Codex is good for rock/pop music. Codex is more warm and has more PRAT for rock etc. But it is on par not sure if better just different. But Codex is better value overall costs almost half the QB-9 dsd.


----------



## music_man

jhi, I fully agree. I listen to easy listening/pop/progressive jazz. I hate to say their, the codex nails the qb-9 dsd. I am so glad they are not holding their technology for ransom like say apple or Samsung. they always release the best they have when they have it. on this alone I applaud ayre.
  
 I am not sure the voltage on the xlr is correct for going into a power amp? the nice thing about pro gear like the benchmark dac1 which we still use is you can adjust the xlr voltage. I honestly would find it a waste to put rca into an ayre power amp. however the voltage does not matter there. cables are very important to extract the best sound or to your liking. cables are like adjustments as you all know.
  
 I put my codex into the ax-5 twenty preamp in. I assume that is going into a preamp as the ax5-twenty is an integrated amplifier and not a power amp in.
  
 to the Debussy I don't know. I kind of doubt it beats the diamond dac v. that is not fair but if it does holy moly.
  
 I am not sure what their clock is but I am sure it is proprietary to them. otherwise a femto clock is tops.
  
 I have no qualms about the codex in this very high end but very compact system. the thing is I did not have room for something larger. this not only fit the bill for size but the sound is what I would consider a high end dac. I feel this easily beats the likes of the bda-3 etc. some may disagree but for my neds it is end game in this system until something vastly superior comes out also in a likewise form factor. that would be a tall order but come two years I do not doubt they pull it off.
  
 I just wish it had more in's out's. standard bnc aes/ebu extra set balanced extra set xlr. the qx did not go in the direction I required and it's form factor is too large for me. I do not need to play from a thumb drive, have Ethernet etc. I would be guesing it is a better dac than the codex however.
  
 I hardly listen to headphones anymore but I have 5 or so very high end headphone amps. so I would not even consider using the mini jacks on the codex. not just the mini jacks because my phones have 1/4 or din if planar but because I doubt it can compete. maybe I would be surprised. I am just lucky I already have the amps and do not even use them now.i would guess it is a great dac with a headphone amp tacked on. likewise with most dacs that have a headphone amp. unles they are first a headphone amp and second a dac like the sennheiser. I could be completely wrong though. I just picked up a pair of cheap phones with a 1/8" to make sure it was working. that was the extent of my listening to it. bottom line ib wil not be using it so that was not a selling point to me. at this level I do not think it should be to anyone.
  
 technology in this field certainly does increase. for $1,800 they built a dac that could be considered end game for some and it is better than the $3,000 qb-9. it is like computers. you just cannot feel ba dif you bought last years model unless you are planning on trading it in.
  
 it humors me that in the teac 503 thread everyone things it is amazing. not even close to the codex of course. I do understand people have budgets though. so I do not fault anyone for that. at least they are listending to music and honestly that thing is a lot og bang for the buck. the codex is pull no stops however. it is not really an entry level product save for the ayre name. they knocked it out of the park. in fact I doubt the qx slaughters it. with the better clock I am not sure though. clock is very important in a dac.
  
 it is interesting the qx has a digital volume control. well, not really. fully digital products should imo.i have a feeling in the future all their products will. a shalco has limited longevity is very expensive and doe snot measure as good., in fact with the digital controls out now they even have closer channel matching. classe, mark levinson,krell,sim,,bryston etc. al ditched their shalco's of yesteryear for digital. I think the qx is a start of a trend by ayre. could be wrong their too. still, I love the ax-5 twenty. the volume control is a sight to behold. even if digital controls fair better. it is funny cheap Cambridge called theirs "silicon gate" to differentiate themselves to the unknowing. after their fiasco with a cheap ladder relay made in china. that brings me to the ayre all of it is mad ein usa. for now. at least. my only qualm about the codex is how hot it gets. I know there is a reason for that. I would just worry about capacitors drying up and such. it is certainly in an "oven" lol. I keep mine on 24/7. oh. a remote would be welcome. the button to switch everything is a bit cumbersome too but they had to fit all this in a tiny package. I am not sure if the form factor is on purpose or just happened. worked perfect for me though. just happened to be exactly what I was looking for when I wa sin the market. agreed, a dac is not an investment. I figure this will stick around for a while though. right now it would be hard to top it without going to something like the diamond dc v which cannot even be a comparison due to price alone. it is honestly that good. if I switch to the diamond dac v I really have to listen to pick it out. simply amazing..not only did it fit it far surpassed my expectations for such a small box. oh, one last thing do yourselves a favor and put it on still points or at least sorbothane. made a nice difference than hard shelf. it is on it's side too. yes that little room.......well that's it for today. had  a lot to say a si am elated with this thing. sorry for such a long post.


----------



## yage

music_man said:


> I am not sure the voltage on the xlr is correct for going into a power amp?


 

 SoundStage Hi-Fi had some measurements done on the VX-5 (link here) and found a voltage gain of 17.5 / 24.9 dB for both balanced and unbalanced inputs. At 8 ohms, you'd need ~2.3 V rms from the preamp to achieve its full power output. At 4 ohms, the voltage level required drops to ~1.93 V rms. You can easily achieve that with the Codex in preamp mode, connected with either the balanced or single-ended outputs.


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## music_man

do you know what the output vrms is? I was just wondering. it would actually be nice if it is a little hot. since of course as people were wishing it would be an actual preamp.


----------



## mink70

oneway23 said:


> In terms of sound quality, for those who may own both, is the Codex essentially a desktop-based Pono?


 
  
 I, too, started with the Pono, which I continue to love. It's beguiling musicality is in my experience unique among portable devices. In general, I think one of the challenges in this hobby is making meaningful distinctions between sound and music, and one of the interesting things about Charlie Hansen is that he has thought a lot about making stuff that plays music, not just reproduces sound.
  
 Having said that, for me the Codex is just as engaging as the Pono, but offers a lot more sound quality, power, dynamics and detail. It is absolutely not a desktop Pono. As a DAC, it is really astonishingly good, and one of the outstanding values in audio right now. For me, at $1800 it was not a casual purchase, but I cannot imagine a better way to spend that money on enjoying music. Honestly, I cannot imagine a DAC sounding much better, and have been getting more mileage by focusing on the transport side of the equation—the computer, software, USB cable, USB filtering devices, etc.
  
 My record player is a Garrard 301/SME 3012/Ortofon SPU, and I own 3000 LPs, and this is the first time I'm listening to computer files as often as to my records. With the Codex, they sound nearly as engaging and fun.


----------



## yage

music_man said:


> do you know what the output vrms is? I was just wondering. it would actually be nice if it is a little hot. since of course as people were wishing it would be an actual preamp.


 
  
 These are numbers from Stereophile's latest issue (not available yet online): with volume set to 100 in preamp mode, output level is 7.14 V balanced and 3.545 V single-ended, both slightly hotter than specified by Ayre.


----------



## music_man

holy smokes! that is very hot. enough to cause distortion on anything I would think. I totally forgot it is variable. that is terrific. I would say most power amps like 2.0 to 2.7 for full output. 7.14 wow. the benchmark cannot come close to that with the front knob or the rear pots. I just always mention the benchmark dac1 because it is still a workhorse in our studios. we do not need cutting edge dacs to record music. some studios do but those are those $60 gold cd's. we still have a rack of 20 of them. just good for studio work but long surpassed in hifi.
  
 as was said a dac is not an investment. if you love yours so be it. the technology will keep going forward and in 3 years we will completely have forgotten the codex and qx. I bet on that. like old ml digital was 20 grand now it is 1,500 bucks. not even worth that imo. it is useless now.
  
 the codex is not a desktop pono! there is no comparison. the codex will blow away the pono. I still like the pono when out and about. like it better than hifiman or whatever. ayre is just a great company. so is ps audio. interestingly both located in the same city! the real reason I like them so much is not solely the sound. you can pick up the phone and speak with a design engineer. practically no other companies allow that.


----------



## oneway23

mink70 said:


> I, too, started with the Pono, which I continue to love. It's beguiling musicality is in my experience unique among portable devices. In general, I think one of the challenges in this hobby is making meaningful distinctions between sound and music, and one of the interesting things about Charlie Hansen is that he has thought a lot about making stuff that plays music, not just reproduces sound.
> 
> Having said that, for me the Codex is just as engaging as the Pono, but offers a lot more sound quality, power, dynamics and detail. It is absolutely not a desktop Pono. As a DAC, it is really astonishingly good, and one of the outstanding values in audio right now. For me, at $1800 it was not a casual purchase, but I cannot imagine a better way to spend that money on enjoying music. Honestly, I cannot imagine a DAC sounding much better, and have been getting more mileage by focusing on the transport side of the equation—the computer, software, USB cable, USB filtering devices, etc.
> 
> My record player is a Garrard 301/SME 3012/Ortofon SPU, and I own 3000 LPs, and this is the first time I'm listening to computer files as often as to my records. With the Codex, they sound nearly as engaging and fun.


 
  
 This is really fantastic input and I appreciate it very much, thank you...I'm still oscillating between the Codex and the Schiit Gungnir at the moment, but it sounds as though I'd be extremely fortunate in either case...Both are considered blow away in terms of their performance for the price, and neither one would be an insignificant expense for me...The multi-functional Codex certainly sounds like a great value proposition.


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## yage

oneway23 said:


> This is really fantastic input and I appreciate it very much, thank you...I'm still oscillating between the Codex and the Schiit Gungnir at the moment, but it sounds as though I'd be extremely fortunate in either case...Both are considered blow away in terms of their performance for the price, and neither one would be an insignificant expense for me...The multi-functional Codex certainly sounds like a great value proposition.


 
  
@sheldaze has both (Gungnir Multibit) so he can offer up his thoughts. When I first heard the Yggdrasil (Yggy) and the Gungnir Multibit (Gumby) side by side, I thought the Codex would match up well against the Gumby. After I heard the Codex and Gumby side by side in my own system, I think the more fair comparison is between the Codex and the Yggy.


----------



## oneway23

yage said:


> @sheldaze has both (Gungnir Multibit) so he can offer up his thoughts. When I first heard the Yggdrasil (Yggy) and the Gungnir Multibit (Gumby) side by side, I thought the Codex would match up well against the Gumby. After I heard the Codex and Gumby side by side in my own system, I think the more fair comparison is between the Codex and the Yggy.


 
  
 Funny you should mention that...I've been chatting with Shel over the past few days...Great person and a real help.  I'm pretty sure he comes down on the side of the Codex...I'm just a hyper-neurotic person who tends to over-research 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 I don't have much experience with the Yggy other than a few brief moments at the Long Island meet last year, but, that's a mighty fierce comparison, from what little I can recall.  It certainly makes the Codex look that much more impressive as a value proposition...


----------



## sheldaze

Not sure where I would stand as far as best DAC...
  
 But we all should know up front, we're talking about really, really small differences here. I brought the Ayre Codex with me (after its 300 hours of burn-in) and placed it alongside a R2R NOS. This was at the Atlanta meet this past weekend. If I had the person's attention long enough at my station, I would eventually let them know they had the option of listening to two DACs. It was interesting to watch their expressions as they realized this.
  
 It was particularly fascinating to watch people who swore off Sabre DACs, after they'd been listening to the Ayre Codex and its Sabre 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Anyways. They listened attentively now, switching from one to the other. Universally, everyone knew the Codex had the most detail, but there was also something musical to the sound of the NOS. Perhaps at meet conditions ears are tired and gravitate to the softer (remember, we're talking small deltas here) sound, but many a person thought that it would be their choice for an all day listening session.


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## music_man

there honestly small differences from the codec to anything else. until you get to the diamond dac v. that is like 5-10% difference then. so we are talking about a $72,000 dac to get slightly better sound. the codex is incredible.  I would not be saying this about another dac. some reasonably priced dacs compared to the diamond dac v there can be a 50% difference to me. I say to me because your ears are all different. ymmv as I always say. I personally am extremely impressed with the codex. feeling it easily beats the direct stream for instance which is twice it's price. if you pick dacs that are as good as the codex there will be small differences as was said. in it's class and even 5 notches above it really just depends what you like. I needed the codex because of the size, not expecting much. I was extremely surprised. this is a very competent dac. besting dacs several times it's price. if you choose the right one to compare though as I said there will be small differences. one will be better here one will be better there but it will be very slight. I highly recommend it but again as always ymmv. I doubt anyone would outright hate it though. I see no need for a different dac in a system that is well into six figures. I use the ax-5 twenty. ayre themselves demo the codex with the ax-5 twenty so I am guessing they think it is at that level. you would not put a trash dac on the ax-5 twenty if you were trying to market that. really it all depends what you like. I would certainly listen to it. plus it must have at least 500 hours on it when you hear it. strangely at some point in the break in it sounds like a $25 dac. to me the form factor was paramount. I did not really have a choice. lo and behold they packed a wallop into this thing. I would like to hear the qx with a better clock and perhaps it has another diamond buffer stage too. I am sure it is at least somewhat better but sadly I cannot fit it in here. plus as I said it has a lot of stuff I will not use and is lacking somethings I really could use. anyways ayre is high end equipment. $1,800 is cheap for them but it is not considered to be cheap by everybody. to a lot of people this is their max budget and I understand that. I personally do not think you can go wrong with it but you must be able to listen to anything you purchase. I would never buy something sight unseen.


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## Maelob

Has anybody compared the Codex to Geek Pulse XFI or Infinity?


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## music_man

speaking of lh "I" wonder how it will compare to the sire which is vaporware currently lol. seriously though I am not sure I would spend over a grand on things that are crowd funded. that is shameful honestly they have to crowd fund a $1,500+ dac because they specialize in $120,000 dacs. anyone can build a $1,500+ dac through regular avenues. that just does not appeal to me. plus 12vdc and cannot obtain the psu currently? I would never get a component that does not take an iec. having the psu separate is in fact a great idea to limit noise close to the chip but you cannot get the psu. so that is off for me. plus with the psu it is way more money than the codex. I honestly think if everything else is up to snuff the msb is worth it but lh baffles me. I do not even care for the Debussy. I did not hear them side by side but as I recall the Debussy is not terribly better than the codex! so what could I say about the geek pulse not even having heard heard it? from the looks of it not impressed though.
  
 I know I am coming off as a fan boy comparing the codex to dacs that are multiples of tens of thousands of dollars. yes, they are somewhat better. I will readily admit that. the thing is we are currently getting to the point of k9 hearing as it is. there are differences for sure. so it wil depend what sound you like. however I feel most people can stop at the codex and some of it's competition. however I have heard mere 10 grand dacs I did not like as much. of course that is just me. everyone hears different. what I prefer you may not. in fact some may hate the codex. I was just very lucky that it was about the only size I could make use of and I happened to really like it too. honestly I was not expecting much from it. as it is the thing is on it's side on top of two stillpoints. on that note I would recommend isolation under it and of course good cables. someone said the stock power cord was better. perhaps depending on what power cord. I feel the top shunyata made a nice difference but it is pulling the thing off the shelf lol. I am using the top crystal cable for both balanced and se and the audioquest diamond with two jitterbugs and iipurifier. it changes the sound but to my liking. I do feel the codex is at the level of cables that each cost several times it's price. to me it is just a fluke it happens to be $1,800. as I said they demo it with the ax-5 twenty which is what I am using here. so as I also said apparently they feel they created an albeit cheap beast of a dac. even though it's tiny size would not suggest so. I really want to see what is inside of it but I do not want to open mine. come on guys one of you must have snapped a pic? there are no pics on the net. I also wish this had a femto clock and an additional diamond buffer. of course price would go way up. perhaps then they would have one of the top dacs in existence in a tiny box. I really do not want to start modding it. although I have been very successful modding dacs before. I can no longer myself being mostly paralyzed now but I have people that can for me. I just don't really want to yet. I am pleased with it as it stands. I am not concerned about the warranty either. just don't really feel the need to do it. as I said if you like the sound we are getting to k9 hearing at this point. sure, you will hear differences but I doubt anyone can hear everything it can resolve. well, it paired great in this system. the speakers are the 2nd gen sonus faber extrema. maybe it mates well with those. I suppose so. I am not ashamed it is by far the cheapest piece in this system. also using older rel sub from when made by mr. lord. I do not really care for the post sumiko models. not china just like paper cones and class a/b amps better in a sub. all this class d stuff and fancy composite cones do not make for good subs to me. stick withn what they did for 30 years. or just get mj acoustics now. sorry to speak of subs in a dac thread but it is just the whole system jives good. ymmv. especially with what other components you have. as for the head amp I am sure there is much better. that is not what I got it for. first of all mini jacks puts me way off. I realize it was to fit the size probably. if you just want it as a desktop dac/headamp I am sure it is probably fine though.


----------



## mink70

music_man said:


> speaking of lh "I" wonder how it will compare to the sire which is vaporware currently lol. seriously though I am not sure I would spend over a grand on things that are crowd funded. that is shameful honestly they have to crowd fund a $1,500+ dac because they specialize in $120,000 dacs. anyone can build a $1,500+ dac through regular avenues. that just does not appeal to me. plus 12vdc and cannot obtain the psu currently? I would never get a component that does not take an iec. having the psu separate is in fact a great idea to limit noise close to the chip but you cannot get the psu. so that is off for me. plus with the psu it is way more money than the codex. I honestly think if everything else is up to snuff the msb is worth it but lh baffles me. I do not even care for the Debussy. I did not hear them side by side but as I recall the Debussy is not terribly better than the codex! so what could I say about the geek pulse not even having heard heard it? from the looks of it not impressed though.
> 
> I know I am coming off as a fan boy comparing the codex to dacs that are multiples of tens of thousands of dollars. yes, they are somewhat better. I will readily admit that. the thing is we are currently getting to the point of k9 hearing as it is. there are differences for sure. so it wil depend what sound you like. however I feel most people can stop at the codex and some of it's competition. however I have heard mere 10 grand dacs I did not like as much. of course that is just me. everyone hears different. what I prefer you may not. in fact some may hate the codex. I was just very lucky that it was about the only size I could make use of and I happened to really like it too. honestly I was not expecting much from it. as it is the thing is on it's side on top of two stillpoints. on that note I would recommend isolation under it and of course good cables. someone said the stock power cord was better. perhaps depending on what power cord. I feel the top shunyata made a nice difference but it is pulling the thing off the shelf lol. I am using the top crystal cable for both balanced and se and the audioquest diamond with two jitterbugs and iipurifier. it changes the sound but to my liking. I do feel the codex is at the level of cables that each cost several times it's price. to me it is just a fluke it happens to be $1,800. as I said they demo it with the ax-5 twenty which is what I am using here. so as I also said apparently they feel they created an albeit cheap beast of a dac. even though it's tiny size would not suggest so. I really want to see what is inside of it but I do not want to open mine. come on guys one of you must have snapped a pic? there are no pics on the net. I also wish this had a femto clock and an additional diamond buffer. of course price would go way up. perhaps then they would have one of the top dacs in existence in a tiny box. I really do not want to start modding it. although I have been very successful modding dacs before. I can no longer myself being mostly paralyzed now but I have people that can for me. I just don't really want to yet. I am pleased with it as it stands. I am not concerned about the warranty either. just don't really feel the need to do it. as I said if you like the sound we are getting to k9 hearing at this point. sure, you will hear differences but I doubt anyone can hear everything it can resolve. well, it paired great in this system. the speakers are the 2nd gen sonus faber extrema. maybe it mates well with those. I suppose so. I am not ashamed it is by far the cheapest piece in this system. also using older rel sub from when made by mr. lord. I do not really care for the post sumiko models. not china just like paper cones and class a/b amps better in a sub. all this class d stuff and fancy composite cones do not make for good subs to me. stick withn what they did for 30 years. or just get mj acoustics now. sorry to speak of subs in a dac thread but it is just the whole system jives good. ymmv. especially with what other components you have. as for the head amp I am sure there is much better. that is not what I got it for. first of all mini jacks puts me way off. I realize it was to fit the size probably. if you just want it as a desktop dac/headamp I am sure it is probably fine though.


 
 Man, with all due respect, can you please use capitalization, grammar and paragraph breaks, especially when writing at this length? You have a lot to say, and these are a bear to read.


----------



## music_man

i am really sorry. i am mostly paralyzed. could you please give me a break under those circumstances? i have one finger on one hand that works for typing and not muchg else anymore. i am in a wheelchair now. i am not asking for sympathy at all. i just hope you can recognize i am not doing that just to be lazy or an a hole. back in the day i typed 130wpm flawlessly.


----------



## mink70

music_man said:


> i am really sorry. i am mostly paralyzed. could you please give me a break under those circumstances? i have one finger on one hand that works for typing and not muchg else anymore. i am in a wheelchair now. i am not asking for sympathy at all. i just hope you can recognize i am not doing that just to be lazy or an a hole. back in the day i typed 130wpm flawlessly.


 
 Had no idea. Apologies.


----------



## jhljhl

music_man said:


> i am really sorry. i am mostly paralyzed. could you please give me a break under those circumstances? i have one finger on one hand that works for typing and not muchg else anymore. i am in a wheelchair now. i am not asking for sympathy at all. i just hope you can recognize i am not doing that just to be lazy or an a hole. back in the day i typed 130wpm flawlessly.


 
  


mink70 said:


> Had no idea. Apologies.


 
 I suppose you can't use dragon dictate either. I use it often. No worries.


----------



## music_man

yeah i could use it but i have to buy it and then figure out how to use it. if it is like my phone it is not going to work too good lol. i have a feeling it is a lot better though. well to be honest i just like the little ability i have left to use my beloved topre keyboard. i hope you guys don't mind.
  
 mink, no problems. it's all good. the main thing is even though my body no longer works i am still happy. the doctors are just amazed it is my body that went and not my brain. the illness usually  causes body damage to a point but then ultimately failure of the brain. well, i hope that does not occur. it is all good though. i really do not mind to be like this. got a nurse to take care of me but unfortunately he is a big man, not a 20 year old girl lol.
  
 i am also glad apparently many people value what i have to say. i base my knowledge on 40+ years as a recording and acoustic engineer. i was also highly certified in electronics repair but good luck with that now. i remember the first time i realized i no longer could use a soldering station. i was just like screw it and put it down. i was just never the type to get really upset about anything. life is what it is. it is in goid's hands and i fully accept that. even though i have not stepped foot in a church since the early 1960's! thats another story that is not appropriate to discuss here.
  
 hey, i am fine! well save for the fact i am 80% paralyzed lol. the most important thing to me is i can still listen to music. that, is very important to me.
  
 i apologize for off topic. i just did not want you guys to think i typed that way because i was a jerk or fool. i knew this was going to come up sooner or later. mink, don't feel bad though. you had no idea. for all you knew i was just a buffoon. no problems...


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## austinpop

@music_man
  
 Thank you for sharing your story. It is truly inspiring to hear how you have kept your positive attitude through a very difficult situation.
  
 I am so glad music is a part of your life, and we welcome your views on our common passion, formatting be damned!


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## cygnusx

austinpop said:


> @music_man
> 
> Thank you for sharing your story. It is truly inspiring to hear how you have kept your positive attitude through a very difficult situation.
> 
> I am so glad music is a part of your life, and we welcome your views on our common passion, formatting be damned!


 

 I agree with austinpop.  Wow @music_man....truly inspiring my friend.  It's a bit cheesy...but "Keep Calm and Keep Listening!" 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Btw, I agree...our Codex kicks major butt!!!


----------



## music_man

thanks guys. i appreciate it.


----------



## JoeDoe

If there are any Codex owners out there looking to sell, I may be interested! PM if you're moving to different gear!


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## eddprzz

Man I don't think anyone is willing to sell their codex it's just to daMN good. Imo only thing that bears the codex in dac only is the hugo, but as a whole the codex does win because the amp on it really works well with the hd800 and the s version.


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## cygnusx

eddprzz said:


> Man I don't think anyone is willing to sell their codex it's just to daMN good. Imo only thing that bears the codex in dac only is the hugo, but as a whole the codex does win because the amp on it really works well with the hd800 and the s version.


 Really you're putting the Hugo in the same league, in terms of sound!


----------



## sheldaze

eddprzz said:


> Man I don't think anyone is willing to sell their codex it's just to daMN good. Imo only thing that bears the codex in dac only is the hugo, but as a whole the codex does win because the amp on it really works well with the hd800 and the s version.


 
 I'll put that on my list to compare this weekend, as I've been listening to the Hugo completely separately from the Codex.
 The established DACs for me are the Gungnir Multibit and Yggdrasil, so I have been comparing the new DACs against those, and not against each other.


----------



## cygnusx

sheldaze said:


> I'll put that on my list to compare this weekend, as I've been listening to the Hugo completely separately from the Codex.
> The established DACs for me are the Gungnir Multibit and Yggdrasil, so I have been comparing the new DACs against those, and not against each other.


Be warned, you really need 500+ hours of burn-in for the Codex to shine. It takes patience, I almost returned it during the burn-in period. I'm glad I didn't.


----------



## sheldaze

cygnusx said:


> Be warned, you really need 500+ hours of burn-in for the Codex to shine. It takes patience, I almost returned it during the burn-in period. I'm glad I didn't.


 
 I put in 300 hours myself, and it is a used Codex. So the next 200 hours will be me listening to it


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## eddprzz

cygnusx said:


> Really you're putting the Hugo in the same league, in terms of sound!


 
 yes i am i'm ready for the flaming in the forums. every hugo fanboy is going to be in my ass but i really LOVE the codex it makes my music sound good not just playing back a file but listening to it and enjoying it not analyzing it, thats it bring on the hate.


----------



## scottsol

For those of eager to hear the QX-5 but don't want to wait for dealer displays to ship the North American debut of the QX-5 will be at Audio Consultants (I work there) in Evanston Illinois ( Chicago area ) on Saturday June 18 from 11 to 5. Alex Brinkman of Ayre will be there to demonstrate the unit and answer questions.

The QX-5 will make it's next appearance the following Saturday at Music Lovers in Berkeley California.


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## music_man

maybe if someone sold it for a profit loll..
  
 i cannot say it is the best dac in the world. i think i can safely say it is the best dac in the world it's size. which is exactly what i required.


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## music_man

assuming the codex has a 9018 or more than one the 9038 should not be audibly better. it is an incremental upgrade. except for dop processing if you require it. see, the issue is they have reached the current limit of technology and are beyond the limits of human hearing. of course they make a big introduction of a new product. this is like 5th gen intel vs 6th gen not like 2nd gen vs 6th gen. the qx-5, as i said has a lot of stuff i will not use. however i do not see what the dsd rate of the 9038 is anywhere. that would be of interest. i would be disappointed if it is not 512.
  
 the qx-5 is still extremely nice for people that will make use of it's feartures. i do wish to hear it though. it could be considerably better sounding for reasons other than the chip. in which case i would certainly own one. you can see why the codex is $1,800. it has a stripped down chassis compared to the qx-5 and other ayre products to begin with.
  
 i realized, diamond buffer in their dac implementation may be theiir answer to a femto clock? in an amp i would regard it is something completely different. they do like to toss around the term. just wondering if anyone knows if this means femto-like performance in their dacs?
  
 nonetheless i would not have the qx-5 in this system since it is physically to large. to put it in my large system and displace the diamond dac v it would really have to be up to snuff.
  
 i also wonder about boulders 2120($65,000). the joke is am guessing as a network player the qx-5 will surpass it but just a guess. i do not care for a network enabled dac. a music dedicated fanless pc running jriver is just going to be vastly superior to any onboard network ready dac in a box. look at the display for starters. i have 3 32 inch displays on this pc. do not use it for gaming but works great with jriver. i can run several instances of it. showing my library, settings etc at the same time. a dac in a box with ethernet cannot have the functionality of jriver. i am solely concerned with sound though. if the qx-5 sounds vastly better than the diamond dac v i will own it. i do not think that is fair. they concentrated more on connectivity i imagine. i am not going to compare it to the codex because for me the point is moot. i have nowhere to put it here without obstructing a loudspeaker. which of course would not be a good thing. i am simply out of room for components here. the furniture piece weighs 1,600 pounds of mahogany is 18 feet long and has components from end to end leaving one foot on each side before the speakers. then the speakers each take up about 14" of width. so the little codex can lay on it's side on isolation on top of the cd transport. i would not start stacking full size components with isolation on top of each other without a proper rack. downstairs i use several pagode. no room for that in here. the furniture was custom made to fit exactly between the bathroom door and closet door which is the front of the room  
  
 i am not going to audio consultants while there is a crowd. i will wait patiently for an home audition. which to their good customers aq is one of the last stores in chicagoland that will provide such a service.


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## scottsol

music_man said:


> i am not going to audio consultants while there is a crowd. i will wait patiently for an home audition. which to their good customers aq is one of the last stores in chicagoland that will provide such a service.


 
  
_Anyone_ who comes in to the store can borrow display models for home audition. However, every once in a while someone does this then buys the same item somewhere else thereby losing their "good customer" status and the home audition privilege.


----------



## yage

music_man said:


> assuming the codex has a 9018 or more than one the 9038 should not be audibly better. it is an incremental upgrade. except for dop processing if you require it.


 
  
 I wouldn't focus solely on the DAC chip that they use, though I'm sure it has some influence on the sound in the end. Since they've priced the QX-5 Twenty higher than the Codex, they'll be able to use better quality and / or more closely matched parts in addition to supporting a wider range of inputs and capabilities.
  
  


music_man said:


> i realized, diamond buffer in their dac implementation may be theiir answer to a femto clock? in an amp i would regard it is something completely different. they do like to toss around the term. just wondering if anyone knows if this means femto-like performance in their dacs?


 
  
 The diamond output circuit has no bearing on the clock. Ayre has developed their clock circuitry in the past (from this Stereophile review of the Ayre C-5xe):
  


> We designed our own clocks, which are as low-jitter as we can make 'em—we don't use any canned modules or off-the-shelf solutions, we make our own from scratch. Then we turn off the unused clock, so you don't get any interference, modulation, or crosstalk from the clock that's not being used. We just shut it off completely.


 
  
 To get the most benefit of the clock in the QX-5 Twenty with a disc-based source, you have to use a transport that accepts the DAC's clock as input. This is probably the chief reason why they output the word clock. You could also use an asynchronous transport mechanism like Ethernet or USB and reap the same reward, I'd imagine.


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## scottsol

One of the special parts in the QX-5 is a newly designed quartz crystal for the clock. The accuracy of the clock is of very little importance. Nobody cares if the music play back speed is off by .001% (less than .04 seconds an hour). What is important is that the precision be very good, that the clock rate is very constant. Perhaps the best way to evaluate this is called phase noise. 
  
 Here' s Ayre's discussion of the QX-5 clock from their press release.
  
Ayre has also partnered with Morion (www.morion.com.ru) to develop a new high-performance crystal oscillator that offers the lowest levels of phase noise in the industry. Morion has decades of experience supplying satellite-grade crystal oscillators, including those powering the guidance system of the International Space Station. A specially developed new doubly-rotated cut quartz crystal allows this high level of performance to be achieved without the need for expensive temperature-controlled ovens. Precision timing is at the heart of conversion between the digital and analog domains, and the ease and fluidity of analog is fully realized for the first time with the QX-5.


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## music_man

that is good to know about the clock. perhaps equal to or better than femto. the new clock sounds like overkill. they just keep upping the ante. i do need to hear this.
  
 scott, what prompted you to say that? i agree that would be a real jerk move. however if someone did that it is not exactly like they would notify you anyways. even worse would be if they "stole" the item which is why you take a credit card beforehand! back in the day you could trust "everyone". times long gone. i am at the age where i remember those times. when a real high end system was $500. well, i just gave away my age. seriously, to be honest i walked into your first store the week it opened. in fact i purchased a styli. i have not been there in person in several years since i got very sick. i just send someone on my behalf. to be honest i also have done business with md but i do not see that as unloyal. they have things you do not and you have things they do not. i am just thankful for the internet now, that i can still talk to people.


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## BlackstoneJD

music_man said:


> the new clock sounds like overkill. they just keep upping the ante.


 
  
 Agreed! Sold!


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## music_man

no kidding!


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## cygnusx

Finally listening to the codex with balanced headphones. Night and day difference...now I understand why people have been raving about the difference.


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## alpha421

Has anybody here used a Schitt Wyrd or iFi iUSB with the Codex or something similar? Just want to determine if the Codex benefits from it or not.  Thanks in advance.


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## yage

alpha421 said:


> Has anybody here used a Schitt Wyrd or iFi iUSB with the Codex or something similar? Just want to determine if the Codex benefits from it or not.  Thanks in advance.


 
  
 I tried an UpTone Audio USB REGEN and an AQ JitterBug on the Codex. No effect in either case.


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## alpha421

Thanks for that. Curious to know what USB and power chord you're using.


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## cygnusx

alpha421 said:


> Thanks for that. Curious to know what USB and power chord you're using.


FYI...tried a few different power cords and usb cables...for me the one that came with the codex was good enough. I didn't hear much of a difference to care too much. I spoke to Alex over at Ayre about power cords, he also recommended staying with the standard cord. Remember, replacing the power cords could change the signature of the sound, but it may not be for the best. I notice that with a lot of power cables, the sound may sound good at first but then you realize that the sound is no longer neutral. I don't play around with power cables that much anymore. I did notice that a lot CD players benefit from a better power cable. Just wanted to share my observation.


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## yage

I used a power cord based on Chris VenHaus' designs (link here) - the flavor 1. USB cable was a no-name generic - Xinya is printed on the sheath. Interconnects were Analysis Plus Pro Oval Studio. The rest of the system is in my profile, if you're curious.


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## KmanChu

alpha421 said:


> Has anybody here used a Schitt Wyrd or iFi iUSB with the Codex or something similar? Just want to determine if the Codex benefits from it or not.  Thanks in advance.


 
 The Uptone REGEN made a notable difference in my case. This might be because my computer is a totally non-optimized homebuild with no audiophile hardware tweaks. I am about to get a Sonore microRendu which may be a big improvement over the Regen.


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## mink70

I'm using a MacBook Pro with an SSD boot drive running the latest Audirvana + to send files to my Codex, and I found that both the Uptone Audio Regen and the AQ Jitterbug make huge differences to the sound. As does the choice of USB cables. Wish it weren't so, but it is.


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## alpha421

Thanks.  I may pick up a Regen.  Already have  Jitterbug being used on my other system.


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## cygnusx

I will be giving these a try as well. Thx


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## music_man

alex said the same to me. use stock cables. so i use a aq diamond in front of a isub,ipurifier and jitterbug. i use a anaconda hx power cord that nearly pulls the codex off the shelf lol. i use crystal cable xlr and se.
  
 the qx5 matters to me because of better clock, of course better sound i am sure, mainly two xlr,se and aes/ebu. i know the codex is budget for ayre but it is also too small to fit all that. the problem is i have no room for the qx5. i am not going to put it on the floor on it's side behind the door duh. i mean i could but that is plain stupid. i feel i built the finest system i could in a very limited amount of space and i do not really see what else i can do. i cannot put the qx5 right next to a loudspeaker either. i am not going to stack it on top of the 808 transport. not sure how i can fit it. i will certainly hear it at audio consultants but i will just feel bad then. it is odd to run out of space but not money. what a stinking predicament! j/k. well, if it is better than the msb diamond dac v i will get it for my main system. it will be very interesting if it is better. of course than i could be looking at media servers with nas storage with full oled displays and such. ahh ill figure it out i guess.
  
 anyways, i feel cables and signal purification make a difference on any component. if it appeals to you is a different story.
  
 edit: i just looked at the uptone. similar topology to the jitterbug for more money but i do not like that led on there. i mean known for noise. of course jitterbug does not claim to "generate a new signal" which is not exactly possible anyways and it seems i am looking at a very similar circuit layout. if you feel like bashing me it would be more helpful to point out if and why i am wrong about what i am looking at. of course i do not have a schematic but i have been around long enough to look at topology. also keep in mind the codex does not use +5v power. so you could stop at the jitterbug or ipurifier. i am only using the isub because i am running a very long cable. the isub 3.0 is something different but will not work with the codex due to connectivity.


----------



## BlackstoneJD

Good lord if you have an Ayre DAC slap a Transparent High Performance or Premium Powerlink on that puppy! I put the premium on my DAC and headphone amp it was a pretty significant improvement, although your mileage may vary. The power cord on the amp gave me better soundstage, while the power cord on the dac gave me more detail while also smoothing things out. In the end I got a deal on two cords and put one on each component and the combination was a big step up. One cord on the dac alone was not a huge improvement, but having good power cords on the entire chain had a synergistic effect. I have heard this happen before in other systems. It could all be in my head but I thought the difference was palpable. It takes some grain out but adds detail at the same time. Less noise, more music. Also adds a lot of punch. I do think if you are going to do power cords you have to do the whole system to really get the full benefit. The effect is cumulative.
  
 I do think the QB-9 did not change _as much_ as I had come to expect from other components, but it was still a pretty big change.
  
 Of course it could all just be in my head, but the types of changes I hard you can "feel" as well as hear.


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## yage

blackstonejd said:


> ... while the power cord on the dac gave me more detail while also smoothing things out.


 
  
 That was my experience as well when using my DIY power cord (12 AWG tinned copper, foil/braid shield) with the Codex. On an Arcam CD33T, that same power cord really kicked up the bass.
  
 Having said that, I'm slowly getting out of the cable game and moving back to stock power cords and Blue Jeans cabling. if anybody is interested in the Analysis Plus stuff in my profile, send me a PM.


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## austinpop

The whole "do cables improve the sound" debate tends to get people very excited and agitated. So I'm not going to make any broad claims one way or another, but just lay out my experience.
  
 I found that going from stock cables to modest audio-grade power cables made an appreciable improvement to the sound. By modest, I mean Pangea AC-9 SE MkII and AC-14  SE MkII cables in the $50-200 range. I will echo the advice to upgrade all the cables in the chain, though, rather than piecemeal.
  
 My Codex setup consists of the following:
  
 Wall power outlet -- Pangea AC-9 SE Mk II --> PS Audio Dectet Power Center -- AC-14 SE Mk II --> Ayre Codex
                                                                                                                              |
                                                                                                                              |--  AC-14 SE Mk II --> Auralic Linear Power Supply -- stock Auralic DC cable --> Auralic Aries Mini 
  
 When I placed the 3 Pangea cables in the system to replace the stock ones, I heard good things - a blacker background, improved bass, and an overall increase in "ease" and the music sounded more "relaxed."
  
 For the modest outlay of 2-300 bucks, I felt the improvement was very worth it. Would I spend more for esoteric cables? No, but it is very possible that more expensive cables will yield even more improvement, although I suspect the law of diminishing returns will kick in. 
  
 BTW - the other cables in my system are:

Cardas Clear USB cable from Mini to Codex
Moon Audio Black Dragon balanced headphone cable from Codex to HD800


----------



## music_man

blackstone, i assume you got those at audio consultants of course.


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## BlackstoneJD

music_man said:


> blackstone, i assume you got those at audio consultants of course.


 
 Yes, of course. They happened to have a pair in stock and I had thinking about it for a while. I just did it no audition. I didn't think the high performance link that I had borrowed in the past contributed that much but the premium really blew me away. I didn't over analyze it. When you do power cords and treatments I find the system just consistently sounds great. At this point with my headphone rig it is less a question of fixing problems or remedying things I don't like than just taking things up a notch. I think the thing I am looking forward to the most with the QX is the remote volume control!


----------



## yage

@austinpop - those Pangea power cords seem like a good value. You get a lot of copper for the money. I had to chuckle at the "DeathGrip" IEC, though. I hope you can unplug them when you need to.


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## austinpop

yage said:


> @austinpop - those Pangea power cords seem like a good value. You get a lot of copper for the money. I had to chuckle at the "DeathGrip" IEC, though. I hope you can unplug them when you need to.


 
  





 Nope no issues on that score.
  
 But be aware these cables are *thick! *The AC-9 is like a fire hose. Depending on how it's hanging off the back, it can actually hoist a Codex off it's feet due to the weight of the cable.
  
 That's why I stuck to the 14 gauge AC-14 for my components, and only used the 9-gauge between the wall outlet and the power conditioner. 
  
 Yes, overall, I'm quite impressed with the build quality. And the price is very reasonable.


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## music_man

the high performance is just a very high quality standard power cord thts probably why. step up the line and they most certainly get better.


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## scottsol

scottsol said:


> _Anyone_ who comes in to the store can borrow display models for home audition. However, every once in a while someone does this then buys the same item somewhere else thereby losing their "good customer" status and the home audition privilege.







music_man said:


> scott, what prompted you to say that? i agree that would be a real jerk move. however if someone did that it is not exactly like they would notify you anyways. even worse would be if they "stole" the item which is why you take a credit card beforehand! back in the day you could trust "everyone". times long gone. i am at the age where i remember those times. when a real high end system was $500. well, i just gave away my age. seriously, to be honest i walked into your first store the week it opened. in fact i purchased a styli. i have not been there in person in several years since i got very sick. i just send someone on my behalf. to be honest i also have done business with md but i do not see that as unloyal. they have things you do not and you have things they do not. i am just thankful for the internet now, that i can still talk to people.




I have no problem if someone borrows an item and decides to buy something else. The whole purpose of the home audition is to see if the unit is the right one. But taking advantage of our expertise, of our investment in displays, our willingness to have a customer come to to hear an item but not be able to because it is out for audition, and then purchase that same model elsewhere is wrong wrong wrong. Having done that once, why would I give someone the opportunity to do it again.


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## music_man

yeah no kidding. i am totally with you on that. that would be a real jerk move to do that. i highly value audio consultants expertise, honesty , kindness and patience. if you carry a product i want i would not consider buying it elsewhere. regardless of if i auditioned it or not. there is a far cry from you guys and big box stores in fact even abt and md. nowhere else will a sales person sit with someone for an hour and then not even twist ones arm to make a purchase. i am unable to come to the store anymore but i will often send someone to pick up something on my behalf. i vastly enjoyed visiting in person when i was healthy. every other store is either unknowlegable, inpatient or high pressure. you guys are none of those things and to me at least that is priceless. luckily you have built a loyal customer base. today the average person does not value these things so i can see why that occured. taking advantage is a very lousy thing to do. today many a peerson is simply lacking in cooth unfortunately. once things were different. i feel it started going down hill after the 70's. which has shaped the retail landscape we see today. even if i could still walk you would not catch me dead in a best buy store. of course i am not grouping you together i am saying this is a big part of the decline of our society. i only deal with establishments that have clients, not shoppers. of course this is getting harder to achieve. i know there are still people that feel likewise but the numbers seem to be dwindling every day.


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## BlackstoneJD

If your power cord is not hoisting your DAC off its feet you need to upgrade your power cord. Truth.


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## music_man

actually mine is pulling it off the shelf lol. the anaconda hx is like 2 inches in diameter.


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## austinpop

blackstonejd said:


> If your power cord is not hoisting your DAC off its feet you need to upgrade your power cord. Truth.


----------



## KmanChu

I received an HD800S review loaner this week and have been listening direct through the Codex using the balanced output. It works very, very well. It has been a while since I got to listen to an HD800 but the 800S does sound very different from what I remember, definitely a little warmer sounding. The detail is all there, but a tad less in your face.
  
 An interesting comparison, my LCD-3Fs just had the drivers replaced and so have the new-this-year drivers. The sound of HD800S and LCD-3 have moved closer together with the latest generations. I don't mean they are similar now, but the HD800 sounds warmer and LCD3 sounds quite a bit more detailed up top and the bottom end is a tighter/drier and less exaggerated. 
  
 Anyway, the Codex drives both of these headphones very well. I had heard some people have concerns about maximum gain and output level, I am using both of these with the volume in the 60-80s range. I haven't felt the need to go into the 90s with any type of music with either of these headphones.


----------



## austinpop

kmanchu said:


> I received an HD800S review loaner this week and have been listening direct through the Codex using the balanced output. It works very, very well. It has been a while since I got to listen to an HD800 but the 800S does sound very different from what I remember, definitely a little warmer sounding. The detail is all there, but a tad less in your face.
> 
> An interesting comparison, my LCD-3Fs just had the drivers replaced and so have the new-this-year drivers. The sound of HD800S and LCD-3 have moved closer together with the latest generations. I don't mean they are similar now, but the HD800 sounds warmer and LCD3 sounds quite a bit more detailed up top and the bottom end is a tighter/drier and less exaggerated.
> 
> Anyway, the Codex drives both of these headphones very well. I had heard some people have concerns about maximum gain and output level, I am using both of these with the volume in the 60-80s range. I haven't felt the need to go into the 90s with any type of music with either of these headphones.


 
  
 Too bad we're not closer geographically, else I'd have asked for a listen!
  
 I'm using my Codex with the HD800 (but modded with the Super Dupont Resonator mod described here) and I've been waiting to compare the modded HD800 with the HD800S with my Codex. I was too late to get on Todd's HD800S loaner program, but will eventually find a way to listen to the 800S, I'm sure.


----------



## BlackstoneJD

Here are my impressions of the QX-5 Twenty from today's listen.
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/811706/ayre-qx-5-twenty-digital-hub-dac-headphone-amp-first-listen


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## music_man

blackstone, i really appreciate that. it meant a lot to me. since as you probably know i could not go do to being severely disabled. i just wondering if you would say in a percent(%), how much better is it than the codex just for sound quality only. not features. i would appreciate that if you could. thank you and great review. btw, i would not say there are really higher end speakers than the 803 d3 until you get to like 20 grand. they are huge bang for the buck but i do not even own them. i also want to mention as i already have i love audio consultants even though i cannot go there anymore. the rear parking lot is almost impossible to use a chair and the front is out of the question. it would be nice if they were accessible but i understand a very small company has budget constraints which in fact is why they are exempt from ada. it is fine with me though.
  
 oh, they made your cable balanced there? that is not a small job on the ps1000.


----------



## BlackstoneJD

music_man said:


> blackstone, i really appreciate that. it meant a lot to me. since as you probably know i could not go do to being severely disabled. i just wondering if you would say in a percent(%), how much better is it than the codex just for sound quality only. not features. i would appreciate that if you could. thank you and great review. btw, i would not say there are really higher end speakers than the 803 d3 until you get to like 20 grand. they are huge bang for the buck but i do not even own them. i also want to mention as i already have i love audio consultants even though i cannot go there anymore. the rear parking lot is almost impossible to use a chair and the front is out of the question. it would be nice if they were accessible but i understand a very small company has budget constraints which in fact is why they are exempt from ada. it is fine with me though.
> 
> oh, they made your cable balanced there? that is not a small job on the ps1000.


 
  
 I can't comment on the Codex as I have a QB-9 DSD.


----------



## music_man

well i would not mind hearing your comments vs. the qb-9 dsd as i know that well too. the thing is you listened to a whole very high end system but i wonder how much influence it has if you swap out the codex for the qx-5. i honestly would not be surprised if it is night and day anyways. if only i had room for it. i would still like to know what i am missing. the thing is though as i have said too. it has a lot of features i will not use and a few i find sorely lacking on a lot of dacs. like multiple xlr out. aes/ebu is very welcome but honestly it is a dying standard relegated primarily these days to studio use as it was intended. usb can carry a lot of data and if it has usb 3.0 it carries more data there than aes anyhow. i am not sure it is something that would attract someone with solely a disc spinner obviously. still very nice to plug one in with aes even though current spdif transmitters and receivers have pretty much matched it. what is important is wordclock on higher end equipment imo.
  
 my codex has a little issue though. the toslink jack "key" does not work. i can jam in a cable any old way. of course all that matters is it secures the cable which it does.
  
 oh, i was wondering why you do not use asio?


----------



## BlackstoneJD

l really just can't make that comparison and I won't until I get the unit home. It is impossible because there are so many variables to account for. Everything in the demo room was better than my system including the Melco, power conditioning, cabling, everything. Even the volume control is a factor. When I get the unit and break it in it will be easy to compare. I am satisfied that QX-5 can and will replace my QB-9 and suspect it will replace the Bryston as well. If you stuck a QB-9 in there I suspect that also would sound very good as well. What I heard from my headphones there was quite a bit better than what I heard from my QB-9 when I got home. Much more refined. That is all I can say. I normally would audition at home before purchasing but there is so much functionality here that I need that I am not overly concerned with making the comparison. But it was as good as anything I have heard in recent memory.I suggest we keep QX-5 Discussion on the QX-5 threads. The QX-5 clearly is in a different line and price range than Codex and the Codex obviously has its own merits and is a very different product. They are clearly meant to coexist. I don't want to hijack the Codex thread. 

Then again, it is my thread. I have a long and storied history of starting threads about products I do not own. On one computer building site I started a thread about a cool new computer chassis in 2009 and it now has 1,572,646 views and 3,746 replies and I never got around to buying the chassis.


----------



## music_man

thats funny about the case. i know this is ot but what case was it? speaking of which i had asked why you do not use asio? computers is something i also really like. my music server has no fans. going from usb highly filtered i figure it is as actually more versatile than a dedicated non pc music server. you need to upgrade jriver too but now i would wait until 22.
  
 i know that demo was very high end but i hope you have good stuff if you are springing for the qx-5. i am sure less expensive dacs will come out with this chip and even more functionality but of course lower sq.
  
 you are correct though. the qx-5 was not what you heard in that demo. or very little of it. that system would still sound good if you swapped in a $1,000 dac. as i said ac do have better speakers on hand than the 803 d3 but those are already a lot of peoples dream speaker. they certainly qualify as high end. i really like them. my book shelf speakers are much better than the bw offering but they are still very impressive. $8,000 book shelf speakers are still a lot to most people. that whole system even with the bw speakers is big time.
  
 do you mainly want the qx-5 for the functionality or more for the sq? i did not even know it had a headphone jack. at that level i would get a separate amp though imo. i know you did not want to high jack your own thread but i feel a comparison is in order if and when you could do it. the codex imo is a little better sq than the qb-9 dsd. i am guessing with the new chip alone before you even factor the rest of the better circuit the qx-5 must sound better than the codex, but by how much i wonder. if it turns out to be better than the msb diamond dac v i would get it for my dedicated system then. just cannot fit it in this room which has me kicking myself. i will be rather surprised if it is better than the msb. there are a lot of dacs to choose from at the high end but the qx-5 brings a lot of functionality. all of which i would not use lol. what i would like to have on it unfortunately is not there but hardly any dac has it. like multiple xlr,aes,spdif on bnc and multiple toslink. a very big thing would be usb 3.1. i am not sure any dac has that yet. files are getting to the point where they are maxing out usb 2.0. like 10x dsd uncompressed. of course the qx-5 does not provide 10x anyhow. so it does not really matter on that. you also need a ton of storage for that. which is why i prefer pc music servers since you can swap a bunch of multi terabyte usb drives. i currently have 36 terabytes on this. 3 terabytes ssd which i play the files from. i feel properly done from memory sounds better than redbook or sacd.
  
 well anyways i can't wait to hear this. the joke is by the time i do they should already have better dacs out.
  
 when you said volume control did you mean the ax-5 twenty? that is what is powering my little bedroom system. these speakers could use more wattage but not really. the ax-5 twenty aims higher than the wattage specs would suggest. i could throw krell mono blocks at these but do not have the room of course. as it is my power conditioner is on the floor standing on it's side with still points 6 below it. i would love to get a pagode and stands in here but this furniture is not going anywhere. i would certainly not throw out the dresser in the name of sq and bringing it to the basement even with 4 men would be nearly impossible. i have in this room severely compromised a very high end system. it still sounds good to me though. interestingly the codex sounds fine in here. the qx-5 is a higher end piece but the codex is not low end by any means. even though it is low end for ayre. until there is something better this small it stays.
  
 oh, i see you have no loudspeakers. so this makes sense then. i thought you were going to pair the qx-5 with a lower end amp and speakers. i am sure without hearing it it is better than the bryston. are you going to listen right out of the qx-5? i have no idea how good the output is on any dac. i hardly listen to headphones anymore but when i did i always used amps and never even tried a dacs headamp. for all i know it may be outstanding. i still have multiple very high end cans but my favorite remains the ps1000. you have good taste then. that says a lot you will get the qx-5 to use with them. they are up to the task imo.
  
 i apologize for my long post in my grammar i explained myself though. not doing this on purpose.  for the same reason i cannot go to audio consultants anymore as i mentioned before but i will just buy it and have them ship it. i am over six hours from them anyways. i used to always get to chicago/evanston in my glory days. i worked downtown for over 30 years. i used to love to go in their store.


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## music_man

blackstone, it appears the qx-5 twenty does not playback dsd? the chip certainly does. if you noticed this could you please clarify it?
 or if scott is reading you can answer this too. thanks


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## BlackstoneJD

music_man said:


> thats funny about the case. i know this is ot but what case was it? speaking of which i had asked why you do not use asio? computers is something i also really like. my music server has no fans. going from usb highly filtered i figure it is as actually more versatile than a dedicated non pc music server. you need to upgrade jriver too but now i would wait until 22.
> 
> i know that demo was very high end but i hope you have good stuff if you are springing for the qx-5. i am sure less expensive dacs will come out with this chip and even more functionality but of course lower sq.
> 
> ...


 
  The case was a Silverstone FT02 which is a monster air cooling case. Not an audiophile product. My current case is an FT01. Not an audiophile product. I indulge in the occasional computer game (when I am not working) so I have two GTX 980 video cards in there. 850 watt power supply. Not an audiophile solution. Six core Haswell-E intel processor. The computer can heat my living room. Not an audiophile product!
  
 My stereo stuff is good enough to take advantage of a good measure of what the QX-5 Twenty has to offer, but not even close to all of what it offers. I have B&W N804 Speakers and a Bryston Amp. Older stuff. I also have a Threshold T2 Line Preamp that is for sale. I have been a headphone user for years because my living situation up to this point as my current apartment does not allow for speaker listening. The walls are too thin (neighbors) to really play music like that. Can't wait to get out of here. We are moving to a house in the burbs this year Looking at one today, actually. There will be a dedicated, but not custom designed, listening room for speakers.
  
 I am not saying I did not hear the DAC and only the system. The system is only as good as the weakest link. You can't fix a mediocre DAC by putting better stuff in front of or downstream from it. Garbage in, garbage out. You just can't zero in on the DAC in a test like that--the cabling alone has a significant impact. The speaker cable in there was like $25,000! Maybe more. So no it will not sound like that at home.
  
 They did have better speakers like the 802 and obviously you can see the mega Wilson's in the background, but the 803 was the one I was interested in, of course because the price is a little more attainable than the 802. I wanted to hear how good an 803 could be and it was impressive.
  
 I would not buy the QX-5 if I did not think it had better performance than QB-9. But I would not have bought a DAC this year at all if it wasn't for the unique feature set. Other parts of my system could use some attention but this unit will boost my system because I can use my best interconnect cable to feed my power amp instead of my headphone amp, use the onboard headphone amplifier fully balanced, put my two best power cords on the QX-5 and power amp instead of on DAC and headphone amp, use the onboard volume control instead of jriver's software volume control, switch between headphones and speakers from the remote control, use Ethernet and Roon, and the list goes on. It also will allow me to sell off one QB-9, one preamplifier, and possibly my headphone amplifier to offset the cost. So it will serve as (1) dac (2) headphone amp (3) preamplifier (4) Roon endpoint. That gives me a better and more useable system. It should be a BIG step up in all respects.
  
 Then when I have a better sounding room I can think about a good set of speakers and an amplifier, maybe some cable tweaks, and done.
  
 I just use WASAPI for no particular reason. I suppose I could try AISO.
   
 I really do not have nearly as much time for this stuff as I used to as I am a pretty busy attorney but once in a while I get sucked back in when a product launches!


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## austinpop

Just saw another favorable comparison of the Ayre Codex with a much more expensive product, in Stereophile.
  
 http://www.stereophile.com/content/pass-labs-hpa-1-headphone-amplifier
  
 In this case, John Atkinson compared the *amp section* of the Codex with the $3500 Pass HPA-1, and essentially found it a wash, although he _"ultimately preferred the sound of the Ayre's DAC feeding the HPA-1 via unbalanced interconnects and the Pass Labs driving single-ended headphones"_
  
 I know the Codex gets a lot of praise for its DAC, but I have always said it's headphone amp is something special too.


----------



## yage

blackstonejd said:


> You just can't zero in on the DAC in a test like that--the cabling alone has a significant impact. The speaker cable in there was like $25,000! Maybe more. So no it will not sound like that at home.


 
  
 I wouldn't be so sure, if it's Transparent speaker cabling that was used. Both my wife and I preferred straight up no-name wire to Transparent when I took her speaker shopping with me (this was on Vandersteen 2ce Sig II's). IMO their black boxes attached to their cables have the potential to do more harm than good.
  


austinpop said:


> I know the Codex gets a lot of praise for its DAC, but I have always said it's headphone amp is something special too.


 
  
 The amp section is incredible and I've always thought so. The Codex is a remarkable product and I think has set the bar very high for Ayre and other companies. I was also somewhat disappointed that the HPA-1 didn't use the super symmetry circuit design that's utilized in their loudspeaker amps.


----------



## KmanChu

austinpop said:


> Just saw another favorable comparison of the Ayre Codex with a much more expensive product, in Stereophile.
> 
> http://www.stereophile.com/content/pass-labs-hpa-1-headphone-amplifier
> 
> ...


 

 I read that. It was a weird conclusion to me as I think running from the RCAs is significantly inferior to running the Codex balanced either by the XLRs or the headphone out. I sold my Red Wine Audio Cassabria because it was only single ended input. The codex was better direct with the balanced connection, the RWA was better (vastly better)  than using the codex direct through SE output jack. I read his conclusion, he didn't say it was better, he said it was his preference. I think he was using LCD-4 for the review, so that is not an easy one to drive.


----------



## yage

kmanchu said:


> I read that. It was a weird conclusion to me as I think running from the RCAs is significantly inferior to running the Codex balanced either by the XLRs or the headphone out. I sold my Red Wine Audio Cassabria because it was only single ended input. The codex was better direct with the balanced connection, the RWA was better (vastly better)  than using the codex direct through SE output jack. I read his conclusion, he didn't say it was better, he said it was his preference. I think he was using LCD-4 for the review, so that is not an easy one to drive.


 

 Well, you can't very well expect JA to praise the balanced output of the Ayre and have him prefer it in the pages of a review about the Pass Labs HPA-1, can you? That would be suicide in a publication that relies on advertising dollars.
  
 I can see what he was _trying_ to do, which was take the DAC of the Codex out of the equation as a variable, though, as you point out, it sounds much better balanced end-to-end than with a single-ended connection in in the chain. I will also say that Ayre's single-ended output is no slouch either as I use that to connect my QB-9 DSD to a single-ended headphone amp and highly enjoy the results.


----------



## cygnusx

austinpop said:


> Just saw another favorable comparison of the Ayre Codex with a much more expensive product, in Stereophile.
> 
> http://www.stereophile.com/content/pass-labs-hpa-1-headphone-amplifier
> 
> ...


 Agreed. Ayre makes some fantastic sounding amps. They certainly have the technology to build great amps. I think we are seeing some of that tech in the Codex. If I had the budget I would sell my 3 months old Rogue Cronus and buy a used Ayre amp. I'm a huge Ayre fan now but to be fair the Cronus is special in its own right.


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## yage

Sometimes you'll find a used Ayre AX-7e for sale for around the same price as a Cronus new. It's a fine amp - my dealer lent one to me while my AX-5 was sent back to Ayre for the Twenty update. It powered through music and movies without skipping a beat. There were times when I thought that I should've saved some bucks and went with the AX-7e to begin with; it was that good.


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## cygnusx

On a different note,  has anybody tried using the Curious USB cable with the Codex?  Thx


----------



## music_man

nice case! certainly not audiophile friendly lol. i also have 5960x. i underclocked it way down so it is still a fast cpu but no fans! huge heatsink.  i see the "jd" at the end of your name which explains you are a lawyer lol. i am surprised you live in a cheap apartment but my dad was a miser too. he was a professor at the university of chicago. i went to northwestern undergrad and grad, depaul phd. yes, this is all ot lol! it is ironic now i am reduced to typing like this. i had a good life though and i am still happy.
  
 okay now on ot. someone please tell me this thing does at least 256 dsd? it looks like they omitted dsd. must be a good reason if i am correct. the chip certainly does it.i mean in regard to the qx-5 of course.
  
 nonetheless the codex hits high above the belt. i myself can compare the dac to the directstream for instance and feel it is better. so you all got your moneys worth. i am not sure if the qx-5 is markedly better sq but has many more features. don't kid myself though i am sure it sounds better but i am not sure how much. i am sure they will continue for now to produce both. they serve two different markets and i do not mean just budget. seeing as the codex is all i can fit physically i am very pleased with the sq. honestly i did not expect much but i stand corrected. it is certainly in the high end realm. besides the features what you do not get is the chassis. i do not mind though it fits the bill. literally!


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## BlackstoneJD

DSD 128 for sure. I think. It might be a firmware limitation per dealer, not hardware.


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## austinpop

cygnusx said:


> On a different note,  has anybody tried using the Curious USB cable with the Codex?  Thx


 
  
 Nope - although I too would be "curious."
  
 I got a great price on a Cardas Clear USB 1m cable, and found it gave me a very nice improvement over the cheap printer cable I had lying around.


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## cygnusx

austinpop said:


> Nope - although I too would be "curious."
> 
> I got a great price on a Cardas Clear USB 1m cable, and found it gave me a very nice improvement over the cheap printer cable I had lying around.


 
 Working on the Curious Cables  I got myself a nice father's day gift, with the family's blessing...I welcome a new device to the family, it's the Aurender N100H.  What an absolutely fantastic device, especially in combination with the Codex, even with the standard USB cable that came with the Codex and an AQ Jitterbug, the sound that I'm getting is wonderful.  Beats the pants off my OPPO CD Player transport easily.  Anybody try using the Wyred Recovery?  I've been hearing tons of good things about the Wyred Recovery, apparently it's better than the Uptone Regen.  A upgraded USB cable and either the Wyred or Uptone is next on my list.  The misery of an audiophile.  I think need a second job!!!!!


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## music_man

jitterbug and cardas clear are great. a good dac/pc/music server does beat the sq of a very high end cd transport imo. don't know why but i hear it. i have much better dacs too so i can certainly tell. plus the convenience.
  
 128 dsd "dealer" option? i do not understand what the dealer would have to do with that. i certainly hope they would enable it. that is strange i never heard of the dealer deciding that before.


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## austinpop

cygnusx said:


> Working on the Curious Cables  I got myself a nice father's day gift, with the family's blessing...I welcome a new device to the family, it's the Aurender N100H.  What an absolutely fantastic device, especially in combination with the Codex, even with the standard USB cable that came with the Codex and an AQ Jitterbug, the sound that I'm getting is wonderful.  Beats the pants off my OPPO CD Player transport easily.  Anybody try using the Wyred Recovery?  I've been hearing tons of good things about the Wyred Recovery, apparently it's better than the Uptone Regen.  A upgraded USB cable and either the Wyred or Uptone is next on my list.  The misery of an audiophile.  I think need a second job!!!!!


 
  
 Congrats! That N100H must be a sweet upgrade. Are you using it with its internal storage, or from a NAS via Ethernet?
  
 I'm also intrigued about these Jitterbug/Regen type devices in the USB chain. So what would the ultimate chain look like in your scenario?
  
 N100H (USB audio port) ---- AQ Jitterbug ---- Curious USB cable ---- Wyred Recovery ---- (USB port) Ayre Codex?
  
 If you do try this experiment, I'd be curious to know if the improvement you get are evenly distributed between the Jitterbug, the Curious cable, and the Recovery, or if they skew disproportionately in favor of any one of more of them.
  
 Get cracking on your homework, @cygnusx !


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## cygnusx

austinpop said:


> Congrats! That N100H must be a sweet upgrade. Are you using it with its internal storage, or from a NAS via Ethernet?
> 
> I'm also intrigued about these Jitterbug/Regen type devices in the USB chain. So what would the ultimate chain look like in your scenario?
> 
> ...


 Thanks. I'm using the internal storage. It's one of the reasons why I when with the Aurender. I was thinking about setting up a NAS but I didn't want to deal with more equipment. 2 TB is plenty for my needs. I have it also connected via Ethernet to an extended Apple AirPort Extreme. Works well, I can alway add a NAS later with this setup. I have to say, the quality is super impressive, its built like a tank. I feel like I got my money's worth. It maybe a while before I get the cable and usb conditioner but once I do I'll definitely take it through the wringer.


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## cygnusx

Btw, your diagram is how I would do it. The Aurender's USB implementation is very good out of the box. I can't hear too much of a difference with the AQ jitterbug in or out.


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## music_man

i am online with 36 terabytes lol. all my music is in wav. however i have only used 5 terabytes but i have not nearly ripped by whole collection and do not plan to. 5 tb in rotation is plenty to listen to even uncompressed. nas is great. my drive cabinet is 3 floors below where i am listening.
  
 i go dragontail into jitterbug into aq diamond into iusb power with ipowersupply out with gemini into ipurifier out with aq diamond to the codex. all my cables cost much more than the codex but i feel it is worthy of it. the codex just happens to be a real high end dac bargain. seeing as i cannot fit the qx-5 it shall suffice. more than suffice it sounds great.
  
 i feel jriver 21 will do much more than any hardware music server and this pc is fanless. it is dead quiet in here. i am over a mile from a road. triple pane windows can not hear the wolves and bears either.
  
 of course there will soon be a dac hopefully the size of the codex with better specs but that is just technology. ayre or no company are going to sit still. meanwhile the codex most certainly does the job.
  
 i do not even know what a curious usb cable is but i am curious haha.


----------



## KmanChu

cygnusx said:


> Btw, your diagram is how I would do it. The Aurender's USB implementation is very good out of the box. I can't hear too much of a difference with the AQ jitterbug in or out.


 
  
 The Aurender's USB output should be pretty superb, that is a big part of what you are paying for with it. I can't imagine any of the relatively inexpensive USB fixers like the Regen, Jitterbug, etc improving anything. I would think the Aurender probably has higher quality components than any of these cheap-ish deviecs.


----------



## cygnusx

kmanchu said:


> The Aurender's USB output should be pretty superb, that is a big part of what you are paying for with it. I can't imagine any of the relatively inexpensive USB fixers like the Regen, Jitterbug, etc improving anything. I would think the Aurender probably has higher quality components than any of these cheap-ish deviecs.


 

 Agreed.  The quality of the Aurender is second to none and the USB output is very good.  When I compared it to the Auralic Aries (second on my list), in terms of the quality, the Aurender is in a different league.  I've heard a few different Aurender based systems and there is room for improvement.  Maybe, I will try a quality UBS cable first, instead of the stock cable that come with the Codex as the first step.  I did hear from a few Aurender owners that the Regen type devices, specially the Wyred Recovery does make a noticeable difference.


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## music_man

if it is the w20, yes it is vastly superior to the el cheap-oh upgrades. the squeezebox is very good on a budget and should not need any further buffereing either but it is not a w20. still i feel a purpose built pc with jriver 21 is much nicer and you can upgrade it anytime. the pc here cost more than a w20 and also runs off battery. an online ups. it runs off the battery always. the battery is just trickle charged from the ac. the psu is is 80 plus but really 94. no fans anywhere. 128gb board ddr4 2 tb of ssd and 36 b of online storage. i just prefer a pc because the sky is the limit. something like the w20 you get what you get abnd cannnot upgrade. plus pc can play,decode, or convert any file possible. it does roon, pandora everything. music servers are limited to their feature set. i am just saying my personal preference is pc. however unless you are sinking 25+ grand i am not sure. a pc full of fans would probably suck in a listening room. my whole stereo is run off battery power too. better than any type of conditioning. again,it is going to be expensive to do that. i am not bragging at all i am just saying that this stuff costs more money than a music server and conditioning so it is not for everyone. i completely understand their are budget constraints. i suppose you could do a fanless laptop for much less though and serve the same purpose. i just prefer a pc because the possibilities are unlimited.of course you will need to buffer the usb then even on batteries. what things like the w20 do have going for them is much cleaner outputs.


----------



## cygnusx

music_man said:


> if it is the w20, yes it is vastly superior to the el cheap-oh upgrades. the squeezebox is very good on a budget and should not need any further buffereing either but it is not a w20. still i feel a purpose built pc with jriver 21 is much nicer and you can upgrade it anytime. the pc here cost more than a w20 and also runs off battery. an online ups. it runs off the battery always. the battery is just trickle charged from the ac. the psu is is 80 plus but really 94. no fans anywhere. 128gb board ddr4 2 tb of ssd and 36 b of online storage. i just prefer a pc because the sky is the limit. something like the w20 you get what you get abnd cannnot upgrade. plus pc can play,decode, or convert any file possible. it does roon, pandora everything. music servers are limited to their feature set. i am just saying my personal preference is pc. however unless you are sinking 25+ grand i am not sure. a pc full of fans would probably suck in a listening room. my whole stereo is run off battery power too. better than any type of conditioning. again,it is going to be expensive to do that. i am not bragging at all i am just saying that this stuff costs more money than a music server and conditioning so it is not for everyone. i completely understand their are budget constraints. i suppose you could do a fanless laptop for much less though and serve the same purpose. i just prefer a pc because the possibilities are unlimited.of course you will need to buffer the usb then even on batteries. what things like the w20 do have going for them is much cleaner outputs.


 
 It's a good point.  I was thinking about building a PC music server for a while, but after costing out what I wanted in a music server, LPS, audiophile usb output, the cost was getting pretty high (I was essentially following the CAPS server spec).   Plus, I really don't want to deal with so much hardware anymore.....I think I maybe getting older .   I bought my Aurender N100H used, at a great price.  I'm very happy with it.  I've heard the W20 a few times and although, it certainly bigger and heavier, I personally didn't think the sound quality was noticeably better as a reference source.  At this point of the game, the DAC, AMP and speakers seem to make a much bigger difference in the sound of a system.   I'll squeeze out as much as I can by trying a few different minor affordable adjustments like switching cables.   Btw, that's impressive that you have your entire system running off battery.  Talking about getting clean and consistent power.


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## cygnusx

@music_man, now you got me wondering.  Can you tell us or PM me, the details of you sound system?  pre-amp, amp, sources, speaker?


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## music_man

i have the computer setup i mentioned going into the codex into the ax-5 twenty into sonus faber extrema v2. the system is highly compromised by being on a shelf though. power is supplied by a large tripp lite online ups. various high end cables from crystal cable,aq and shunyata. stillpoints on everything. i also have the meridian 808 plugged in but i am not using it ever. i have a rs darkstar with balanced ps1000 sitting here too that i do not use. i have many high end headphones but am not using them now. then there is my dedicated listening room i hardly use anymore with too much to mention.
  
 cygnus you have a point too. the n100h will always work and without fuss. never a bsod or cannot connect to usb device. also, especially used in a completely different price range as you mentioned. it certainly serves it's purpose. no pun intended.


----------



## cygnusx

music_man said:


> i have the computer setup i mentioned going into the codex into the ax-5 twenty into sonus faber extrema v2. the system is highly compromised by being on a shelf though. power is supplied by a large tripp lite online ups. various high end cables from crystal cable,aq and shunyata. stillpoints on everything. i also have the meridian 808 plugged in but i am not using it ever. i have a rs darkstar with balanced ps1000 sitting here too that i do not use. i have many high end headphones but am not using them now. then there is my dedicated listening room i hardly use anymore with too much to mention.
> 
> cygnus you have a point too. the n100h will always work and without fuss. never a bsod or cannot connect to usb device. also, especially used in a completely different price range as you mentioned. it certainly serves it's purpose. no pun intended.


 Ax-5 twenty! Very nice, if I had the funds that is what I would get as an upgrade. Anybody hiring, I need a second job!!!


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## music_man

this is what is funny. when i first learned of this amp. i thought to myself it is like a cambridge 840a but not only does it work it sounds very good too lol.i mean in regard to the volume control.
 if cambridge could have gotten that right you could afford the amp!


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## cygnusx

I know we talked about power cables a few posts back but have any of you guys tired using other cables like ones made by Transparent or Wireworld (@music_man's pet python doesn't count )?   I was pretty dis-hearten by my experience with SignalCable cables so I vowed never to upgrade cables again , but.....recently I added an Audio Art Cable (1se), replacing the stock cable on my amp and it's been a pleasant improvement (expensive though).  Guest what? I'm upgrading all my cables now .  I just ordered two Pangea AC14se to replace the stock cables on the Codex and Aurender but wanted to get your views on more expensive cables.  I seen a few very high end power cables in the used market at decent prices.  I tried the Audio Art Cable on the Codex and it made a nice improvement but it wasn't earth shattering.  Here is what I'm thinking....$70 Pangae ac14se, $150 Shunyata Venom 3, $250 Wireworld Silver Electra 5 (used), $250 Transparent Powerlink Super MM (used). I'm currently set on keeping the Pangea cables and saving up for a PS Audio Power Station power conditioner or maybe even a VPI record cleaner  Thx


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## austinpop

Good luck with the hunt. Once you experience the reality that "cables do sound different" the hard part is deciding how much each improvement is worth. Nobody can answer that but yourself, sadly.
  
 Thanks for the pointer to the Audio Art 1se. I will soon be upgrading my amp to a Cavalli Liquid Gold, and I will be in the market for a balanced XLR interconnect in the under $400 price range. 
  
 Other than the Audio Art, what are other Codex owners using for XLR interconnects? Any recommendations?


----------



## cygnusx

austinpop said:


> Good luck with the hunt. Once you experience the reality that "cables do sound different" the hard part is deciding how much each improvement is worth. Nobody can answer that but yourself, sadly.
> 
> Thanks for the pointer to the Audio Art 1se. I will soon be upgrading my amp to a Cavalli Liquid Gold, and I will be in the market for a balanced XLR interconnect in the under $400 price range.
> 
> Other than the Audio Art, what are other Codex owners using for XLR interconnects? Any recommendations?


 Nice!! The Cavalli liquid amp looks awesome. I hope the sound is just as good.


----------



## KmanChu

Not to start a cable discussion but ...
  
 Power cable is the cable I have the hardest time accepting could be a significant player. The power coming through your wall is basic Romex. Furthermore, the Codex is a fairly low power device. What is the thinking with power cables given that coming from the transformer, through your switchbox the power cable makes up the last 0.1% of the distance from the transformer? Does it provide some kind of filtering due to massive capacitance associated with the huge windings? I am not meaning to come off as snarky, but power is the one I have the hardest time believing. I definitely believe various interconnects/cables could sound different, but power cable  seems to make the least sense to me with a low power device. 
  
 All that said, I am considering getting a microRendu to use with the Codex and maybe even a PS Audio power regenerator to take my source and Codex completely off the mains. Has anyone played with any AC power filters/devices in front of the Codex?


----------



## cygnusx

austinpop said:


> Good luck with the hunt. Once you experience the reality that "cables do sound different" the hard part is deciding how much each improvement is worth. Nobody can answer that but yourself, sadly.
> 
> Thanks for the pointer to the Audio Art 1se. I will soon be upgrading my amp to a Cavalli Liquid Gold, and I will be in the market for a balanced XLR interconnect in the under $400 price range.
> 
> Other than the Audio Art, what are other Codex owners using for XLR interconnects? Any recommendations?


 

 You should check out Audiogon...I usually see some decent deals on used cables.  For example, take a look at this Nordost cable -  https://www.audiogon.com/listings/digital-nordost-heimdall-2-digital-xlr-1-5-metre-digital-cable-2016-06-16-cables-v7p-1j2--2   You probably can get these cables for just around your budget.   

 All my equipment is single ended, so I don't have much experience with balanced XLR.  I would check out the usual suspects like AudioQuest, Wireworld.  I would also checkout Blue Jean Cables, I've used their RCA cables, which are decent.  Personally, I'm going to try some more Audio Art cables and replace my BJC RCAs.


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## yage

kmanchu said:


> All that said, I am considering getting a microRendu to use with the Codex and maybe even a PS Audio power regenerator to take my source and Codex completely off the mains. Has anyone played with any AC power filters/devices in front of the Codex?


 
  
 I use a Bryston BIT-15 with all my audio equipment. The Bryston is the equivalent of the Torus Power RM-15 and uses a Plitron transformer to isolate downstream equipment from mains power. It also has series mode surge suppression. I feel it makes a slight difference in the upper midrange / treble where it cleans up some 'hash'. This is especially noticeable on cymbal strikes where they sound cleaner. Otherwise I don't feel the BIT-15 limits either the speaker or the headphone setup in any way. Torus Power also makes smaller units (their TOT line) that is less pricey and breaks out the surge suppression module as an option. I've also plugged in some of my equipment into a ZeroSurge surge protector at the office and haven't felt it to detract or improve the sound - it just buys me peace of mind.


----------



## cygnusx

kmanchu said:


> Not to start a cable discussion but ...
> 
> Power cable is the cable I have the hardest time accepting could be a significant player. The power coming through your wall is basic Romex. Furthermore, the Codex is a fairly low power device. What is the thinking with power cables given that coming from the transformer, through your switchbox the power cable makes up the last 0.1% of the distance from the transformer? Does it provide some kind of filtering due to massive capacitance associated with the huge windings? I am not meaning to come off as snarky, but power is the one I have the hardest time believing. I definitely believe various interconnects/cables could sound different, but power cable  seems to make the least sense to me with a low power device.
> 
> All that said, I am considering getting a microRendu to use with the Codex and maybe even a PS Audio power regenerator to take my source and Codex completely off the mains. Has anyone played with any AC power filters/devices in front of the Codex?


 

 I agree with you on the most part, but I also think that my ears are telling some truth, the sound signature definitely improved.  Is it possible that the new power cable is sending more power to the amp, when required changing the quality of the sound?  I can tell you for sure that at different times of the day, depending on what using the same circuit, the sound of my amp varies slightly.  To your point though, I did start to play around with the interconnects.  I always felt that the Blue Jeans Cable RCAs were good enough, but I'm not so sure anymore.  I'm planning to replace my interconnects one by one and then upgrading the stock usb to the Codex with a silver usb cable.  I will probably throw in a Wyred Recovery with a Curious Cable at some point down the road.  Next year, I'll pickup a PS Audio Power Station.


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## music_man

i swear i said anaconda hx. i just looked. this is thing, the  gold mine you just discovered. in certain places used audio equipment is worth nothing. plus it is already broken in! however, i would try out music directs deal on the ps audio cables. that cannot be beat for a new cable of that quality. i honestly think the ac5 is fine for the codex but at those prices you could even maybe get an ac12. it is not the awg that matters at all. it is a lot of other stuff. cables just tend to be huge. that, might just be to show off.
  
 i could spring for new gear but always snag huge used deals. that might explain some of the stuff i have.  plus as i said broken in is a big deal to me having bad ocd.
 i got that power snake like six feet for i think $400!
  
 oh, about times of the day. yes indeed. that is why i run everything off an online ups. if you have a small system an online ups is not a lot of money. used is a gamble because the batteries are expensive. tripp lite seems to be the best value in a very good one. apc is much more money. the key is on line. it must say that. or it is doing nothing for you.


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## cygnusx

yage said:


> I use a Bryston BIT-15 with all my audio equipment. The Bryston is the equivalent of the Torus Power RM-15 and uses a Plitron transformer to isolate downstream equipment from mains power. It also has series mode surge suppression. I feel it makes a slight difference in the upper midrange / treble where it cleans up some 'hash'. This is especially noticeable on cymbal strikes where they sound cleaner. Otherwise I don't feel the BIT-15 limits either the speaker or the headphone setup in any way. Torus Power also makes smaller units (their TOT line) that is less pricey and breaks out the surge suppression module as an option. I've also plugged in some of my equipment into a ZeroSurge surge protector at the office and haven't felt it to detract or improve the sound - it just buys me peace of mind.


 

 Good to know.  Thanks for the post.


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## austinpop

cygnusx said:


> You should check out Audiogon...I usually see some decent deals on used cables.  For example, take a look at this Nordost cable -  https://www.audiogon.com/listings/digital-nordost-heimdall-2-digital-xlr-1-5-metre-digital-cable-2016-06-16-cables-v7p-1j2--2   You probably can get these cables for just around your budget.
> 
> All my equipment is single ended, so I don't have much experience with balanced XLR.  I would check out the usual suspects like AudioQuest, Wireworld.  I would also checkout Blue Jean Cables, I've used their RCA cables, which are decent.  Personally, I'm going to try some more Audio Art cables and replace my BJC RCAs.


 
  
  
 Yes indeed, that is one of the places I look. My dealer has a used Cardas Golden Reference in the right range too that I will be able to try. I might buy a couple more under the 30-day trial and do a shootout!


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## cygnusx

austinpop said:


> Yes indeed, that is one of the places I look. My dealer has a used Cardas Golden Reference in the right range too that I will be able to try. I might buy a couple more under the 30-day trial and do a shootout!


 

 Sounds like a plan.  Good luck!


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## austinpop

kmanchu said:


> Not to start a cable discussion but ...
> 
> Power cable is the cable I have the hardest time accepting could be a significant player. The power coming through your wall is basic Romex. Furthermore, the Codex is a fairly low power device. What is the thinking with power cables given that coming from the transformer, through your switchbox the power cable makes up the last 0.1% of the distance from the transformer? Does it provide some kind of filtering due to massive capacitance associated with the huge windings? I am not meaning to come off as snarky, but power is the one I have the hardest time believing. I definitely believe various interconnects/cables could sound different, but power cable  seems to make the least sense to me with a low power device.
> 
> All that said, I am considering getting a microRendu to use with the Codex and maybe even a PS Audio power regenerator to take my source and Codex completely off the mains. Has anyone played with any AC power filters/devices in front of the Codex?


 
  
 I sympathize with your point, as I can hear the difference, yet cannot rationally explain why. I think the shielding definitely helps, but so much is dependent on what else is in the path. That's why I am only willing to go as far as Pangea cables, whose cost I can justify through just build quality, plugs, shielding, etc.
  
 The idea of a power regenerator like the PS Audio does make a lot of sense. They do have the P10 on a massive discount right now, but even at $2999 it's a lot of money!


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## music_man

as an engineer it defies everything i know. i always have heard cables. it may be placebo i don't care though. your mind is what is letting you hear the sound in the first place! therefore, i do not care to do a dbt and perhaps ruin many years of enjoyment. that, i am sure is why that forum is dbt free. who cares how you hear it as long as you do. cardas,kimber,ps-audio,aqdioquest,straightwire,crystal the list goes on and on but i like them all. all you cable belong to me! lol.


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## cygnusx

Changed out the stock power cables in the codex and aurender with the Pangea ac14se and the rogue amp with a audio art cable power 1se. Good news is that the sound is still pretty neutral and balance sounding. The Pangea cables did not impact the sound in a negative way like the SignalCables. Not a huge advancement with the power cable upgrades. I think I may need a cleaner and better power into my sources. Changed the interconnects to the Audio Art cable IC-3SE with Xhadow Precision RCA plugs and that did make a noticeable difference. The blue jean cables were really good for the price but I feel like I'm getting a bit more depth, larger sound stage and more details with the upgraded cable. I also upgraded the USB cable to the Pangea USB-ag and that is worth every cent. For a cable that is about $50 I couldn't be happier. Great value. Honestly, I haven't tried any other high end USB cables but the difference between stock and this cable can be clearly heard. Even with all of these upgrades, the sad part part is that my turntable, playing records still sounds much better in every way.....but I feel like I'm getting closer with each change.


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## austinpop

cygnusx said:


> Changed out the stock power cables in the codex and aurender with the Pangea ac1se and the rogue amp with a audio art cable 1se. Good news is that the sound is still pretty neutral and balance sounding. The Pangea cables did not impact the sound in a negative way like the SignalCables. Not a huge advancement with the power cable upgrades. I think I may need a cleaner and better power into my sources. Changed the interconnects to the Audio Art cable IC-3AE Xhadow Precision RCAs and that did make a noticeable difference. The blue jean cables were really good for the price but I feel like I'm getting a bit more depth, larger sound stage and more details with the upgraded cable. I also upgraded the USB cable to the Pangea USB-ag and that is worth every cent. For a cable that is about $50 I couldn't be happier. Great value. Honestly, I haven't tried any other high end USB cables but the difference between stock and this cable can be clearly heard. Even with all of these upgrades, the sad part part is that my turntable, playing records still sounds much better in every way.....but I feel like I'm getting closer with each change.


 
  
 Good to hear! I never really considered the Pangea USB, so it's great to get your impressions.
  
 Do you have typos in your cable model numbers? Do you mean:

Pangea *AC-14SE MkII*
Audio Art *Power 1SE*
Audio Art *IC-3SE, with Xhadow Precision RCA plugs?*
  
 Regarding clean power, yeah there's the rub, isn't it. I still can't justify the cost of a PS Audio Power Plant. My solution is to use a PS Audio Dectet power center. I connect the Dectet to the wall outlet with Pangea AC-9SE MkII cable, and use Pangea AC-14SE MkII cables from the Dectet to my components.
  
 I'm pretty happy with it for now.


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## cygnusx

austinpop said:


> Good to hear! I never really considered the Pangea USB, so it's great to get your impressions.
> 
> Do you have typos in your cable model numbers? Do you mean:
> 
> ...


Yes, you're right those are the cables...I corrected the typos. I'm posting from my iPhone. Thx


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## music_man

cables of all kinds make differences. i have no idea why though. i fully understand science and science does not apply here. as i said you can run the whole rig off  a battery for less money than a power plant. it will also be much better. i swear to you guys you will not believe the difference running your equipment on batteries. as i also said a  used online ups is very cheap but it may need batteries which than negates the point of it being used. they are also very heavy. that being said, it must be an "online ups". any other kind of ups will do nothing for you. you can check out tripp lite and apc sites. they are the most reputable ones. but also minuteman and cyberpower are good but not as good. the thing is if you have less than 1,500 watts total( a standard ac circuit in your home) this is not a huge endeavor. if you need 20,000 watts uh you have a bit of an issue lol. my ax-5 twenty,codex,cd transport,pc,subwoofer and everything else do not draw more than 5.5 amps ever. at idle they all draw 2.7 amps. so a 1500 watt ups is more than enough. you can get one used for $300 but the batteries are going to run you another $600. i do not recommend questionable batteries but battery junction and batteries plus will save you some of that. you need to know how to reconnect them though. if you buy it used you have no warranty anyways. i swear though guys,cables make differences but until you hear a system on batteries you have not heard anything. the problem here is that most all residential ac sucks. especially for audio devices. it is ruining our sound! even if you do not have outages go but a recording meter on your ac for 24 hours. you will be amazed the harmonics you see.
  
 i am just trying to be helpful. most of you should not have a problem getting  a used ups and it will make so much difference you will want to come shake my hand.
 most audiophiles never consider this but as an engineer i know all about it. that is why you do not usually hear about it. i am telling you guys though you will simply be amazed. it will be like you just got a 5x higher end system. of course you do not put this on a $500 stereo but if you have at least $3,000 in it go for this. i am powering six figures of equipment with my tripp lite. the downstairs system is on a full battery array but that is a completely different matter.


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## yage

@music_man - the Tripp Lite you're referring to is an online double conversion UPS with true sine wave output, right?


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## music_man

correct. i am not currently sure the price. as i said you can get rhem used working for $300-$500 but count on the batteries being gone. if you get them at battery junction or batteries plusthey are like $600. you will need to wire in the batteries then because hey are not oem. there are two problems with that though. first it is very easy but if you don't know what you are doing and make a mistake it could prove instantly fatal! second there is a setting for the battery ah. if the new batteries have a different ah which they should not it will cause the ups to instantly permanently die. it is not much of a gamble though. they should be the same ah and wiring it is pretty straight forward. i am just warning you if you accidentally reverse the polarity it can explode with huge force probably killing someone.   the oem batteries make it pointless to buy a used one. they last 2-5 years but honestly i usually get 7 years. i do get non oem batteries but i know what i am doing. if it is a 1500 watt+ unit absolutely do not get higher ah batteries than what is in it. anyways as i said i am not sure what it costs now but if it is under $1,000 i would highly suggest buying it new. plus the oem batteries are always in your best interest. i am an expert at that stuff so i buy them from batteries plus where we have a corporate account and they are considerably less money. just please do not do that if you have no clue about what to do. actually if you bring it in a batteries plus store they should do it for you but the problem of it locking up is still a slight possibility. you have no waranty if you buy it used anyways. depending on the cost my best suggestion would be to buy it new and get the replacement batery program with it.
  
 now, as i said you will not even believe the transformation of your sound. so long as you have good components. if you have a codex or qx-5 i imagine you do. the whole problem is ac. really anywhere in he us or europe. even if you do not have blackouts or brown outs. if you think cables make a difference you would not imagine what this will do. anyways if you do not like it and buy a new one you can always return it. although shipping must be a lot. i imagine a 1500+ watt unti with the batteries installed weighs at least 90 pounds.
  
 here:https://www.amazon.com/TRIPP-SU2200XLCD-2200VA-1800W-Online/dp/B00CBQNBYI
  
 the only thing is this has a fan. i am pretty sure if you play over 70db it will have no effect on your listening. especially if you are using headphones. even fully open back. speakers will easily over power it at 70db. it will not interfer with the music at that decibel level which is not much. most people listen over 80db. i listen at only 60db and don't hear it. unless you really load it hard. the problem is ones without a fan from apc are over 4 grand.
  
 you see the description. it completely isolates your equipment form the line ac. this is a huge deal and will completely transform any good system. i mean i would not get it if i juts had  a sound bar lol. this is the one that is here right now running over six figures of equipment. downstairs there is an apc symetra but that is something completely different and serious money plus need three phase power. this is perfect for most systems which do not draw more than 7 amps. you would be surprised that 7 amps is a whole lot. with the ax-5 twenty and pc everything else i have never been above 6 amps even at 100db. which i do not regularly do anyways. that is very bad for your hearing. if you have 600 watt mono blocks this one is not for you. you need a bigger one which they certainly have but twice the price.
  
 i am just telling everyone you would be amazed what this does. forget all the audiophile power conditioning. this is the real deal. you cannot get better power into your equipment than this period. isolation transformers and such like ps audio and richard gray do not hold a candle to t his. anyways it is amazon. if you do not like it just return it. i think it is actually free to return it too. at this price i would not buy a used one. you should have at least 5 years on the batteries if you do not pul more than 6 amps.
  
 edit: this is less money probably okay but doe snot have the reputation of tripp lite. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000FEM34M?psc=1
  
 i have been to tripp lite many times and it is a top notch operation. they once replaced a 20 year old component for free because they deemed it unsafe.


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## yage

Yeah, I know the Tripp Lite SU series well - we've had the rackmount version in our server rooms for a few years now. Only one failure under warranty and they shipped out a replacement quickly. Great customer service.
  
 Do you have the tower version? Is the fan always on or does it only kick in when you have a black out?
  
 EDIT: Should've read your post more carefully - plus the online specs say noise is 45 dB @ 1 m as measured from the front panel for the tower version.


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## music_man

do you think 45db from the fan is too much? some people think it has a high pitch but i can hardly hear it even when the music is off plus it is in a corner due to 6 foot power cords. i really can't even hear it. it ramps up if you pull the plug but online it is hardly noticeable to me and if music is playing at 60db it vanishes. at 80db you would have no problem whatsoever imo. people think ambient noise has an effect but this is honestly so low it doe snot make any difference. most people probably have more nolise coming from outside their building. i can hear the birds more. of course there are ones without a fan but they are big money. you can look at the other one too but i doubt it has tripp lites reputation. i mean cyberpower is like $450 but that is not what i would use to power this system.


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## yage

I think it depends on how silent your listening environment is and how loudly you like to listen to music. My stereo is in the basement and if I turn off the HVAC completely, I can hear the AX-5 Twenty's and C-5xeMP's transformers hum from about 3' away. I can just barely hear it from my listening position. The Bryston BIT-15, even with its massive toroid, by comparison is completely silent.


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## music_man

geez your hearing is better than mine.. of course i used my ears professionally for years so they may be worn out.plus i am just an old man now. anyways i put my head on the ax-5 twenty and heard nothing. given that, i am sure you would hear the fan in the tripp lite ups. however i am not sure it would make a difference when the music is playing just as the ax-5 transformer does not. of course it is louder than that too but it really is not very loud. i will not turn off my hvac and it is loud. so it overcomes everything. the room downstairs is completely isolated though. it is plenty hot in there with all the equipment. i mainly listen to my new "little" system in the bedroom and at only 60db the hvac does not even bother me. i am not you though. you obviously have much better hearing than i do. i am not really sure if it would bother you or not.


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## cygnusx

I've really been enjoying the upgraded sound for the last few days with the upgrade cables but I did notice some funny business going on with my Codex when listening with headphones (tested with two different headphones in both balanced and single-end modes).  This is the first time, I've done extensive listening on headphones so I didn't really notice earlier.  I noticed that when I was flipping through a list of songs, I would hear either some crackling or a pop on either side of my headphones.  I thought maybe it was the Aurender at first, but even after changing the source to the OPPO (via optical) and connecting a USB drive, the same thing was happening when I was flipping through different songs on the OPPO.  I would hear a slight crackle or a loud pop.  Anybody experiencing anything similar?  Once the song starts playing, doesn't seem to impact the sound at all.  Thx


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## KmanChu

I have a click sometimes when the sample rate switches. Does that sound right? Especially when going into or out of DSD.


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## cygnusx

kmanchu said:


> I have a click sometimes when the sample rate switches. Does that sound right? Especially when going into or out of DSD.


 

 Exactly!  Is this normal?  It seem to happen with I flip through different sample rates per your comment.


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## KmanChu

Mine does it, usually nothing that makes me jump up and notice though. If yours is enough to be truely bothersome then I would check with Alex at Ayre. It shouldn't be enough to make you fear for your speakers or headphones.
  
 It is annoying though, it should seem like there should be a little bit of mute when switching rates to eliminate those noises. In Roon or JRiver there is a resych delay which plays some silence at the beginning of a track when a sample rate changes. It seems to reduce the problem for me.


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## cygnusx

Thanks.  I will check with Alex.  I'll have to see, if the Aurender has a resych option.


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## music_man

the thing is most aftermarket usb cables do not meet usb spec. i had some that would not even communicate. use a stock cable and i bet your problems are gone. small price to pay. i am sure this is the usb cable going on here. i got rid of the problem by using the ifi power supply which is odd because the codex doe snot use +5v but on  a long run i guess the cables do. which would not make any sense but it works. no more pops. i also ust the ipurfier and a jitterbug. overkill anyone?


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## cygnusx

music_man said:


> the thing is most aftermarket usb cables do not meet usb spec. i had some that would not even communicate. use a stock cable and i bet your problems are gone. small price to pay. i am sure this is the usb cable going on here. i got rid of the problem by using the ifi power supply which is odd because the codex doe snot use +5v but on  a long run i guess the cables do. which would not make any sense but it works. no more pops. i also ust the ipurfier and a jitterbug. overkill anyone?


I wonder if switching sampling rates introduces a electronic charge down the cable. I will need to test a little longer but when I put back the stock cable last night, it wasn't entirely clean. I heard some crackling and popping, maybe not as loud.


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## cygnusx

music_man I wonder if I would get the same benefit that you're getting with the ifi power supply, if I add in a Uptone Regen or Wyred Recovery. Any ideas? Thx


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## austinpop

What a coincidence that the discussion turned to pops and crackles on DSD!
  
 With the family out of town, I settled down to an uninterrupted listen to Mahler's 2nd Symphony, the Kaplan/Vienna version from DG (http://www.deutschegrammophon.com/us/cat/4743802). This is one of my all time favorite interpretations of the 2nd, but it also has some attributes that make it germane to the "pop" discusstion - i.e. it has 42 separate index points, which I had ripped into 42 distinct DSF files.
  
 As I was listening, I realized I was getting gapless playback, but the pop at each track boundary was quite audible. Note - this was on my Aries Mini -> Codex -> HD800 setup.
  
 Now - some history: based on this discussion (http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f11-software/sacd_extract-dsf-output-problem-18114/) and several others like it (google is your friend), there used to exist a problem in sacd_extract that created bad DSF files. However, that has been fixed, and there always existed an alternate method to avoid this by going ISO-to-DFF-to-DSF.
  
 I had previously ripped this album using the Sonore iso2dsd tool described here (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=129913.0). Based on my pop=filled listening session last night, I tried a few experiments today:

Ripped the ISO to DSF files using the latest version of Sonore's iso2dsd and sacd_extract.exe
Used the alternative method using the latest ISO2DSF tool that does ISO-DFF-DSF conversions
Ripped the ISO to a single DFF file with an associated CUE sheet.
  
 Bottom line - I am still hearing pops at track boundaries. What is most interesting is that *I hear them even with dff files!* The only time I have no pops is with the single DFF rip (DSDiff Edit Master), but that's not a solution for me, as my setup relies on a UPnP media server, and I'm not aware of any UPnP servers that support CUE - certainly, minimServer does not.
  
 Which brings me - finally - to the tie in with the Codex. I am *speculating *that even with the Aries Mini delivering a gapless stream, the track boundary is causing the Codex to switch momentarily from DSD to PCM and back, due to the use of the DoP protocol. I've sent Alex a note asking him to comment and/or check with the Ayre dev team.
  
 I also plan to post on the CA thread to see if people with other DACs that require DoP have this issue.
  
 Finally, I looked for a streamer setting on the Aries Mini that might improve buffering, thinking it could mitigate this. The Mini does have a DAC Output Delay setting that can be set from 1 to 5 seconds, but I found no impact from that change.


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## cygnusx

austinpopThanks for the write up. Considering that I was hearing the noise via the optical input as well, I wasn't convinced that the sounds were purely being caused by the USB. I'm curious to know what Alex says.


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## austinpop

I will.

Since you mention optical, I'm assuming you're hearing it on PCM when the next track is a different sample rate? Since you can't do DSD over the optical input.

I can't say I've heard any pops on PCM - only DSD - but I may just not have noticed.


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## cygnusx

I just did some more listening with the Oppo via optical and I heard the popping sounds again (with headphones). At this point I don't think it's DSD related. It seem more pronounced when moving from higher rates 192 down to 44 and then back up. I continue to hear the crackling between songs (loudness seems to vary). Now that I'm keep looking to hear the noise, I keep hearing it. It's actually annoying me now. Will test with speakers tomorrow. I don't recall hearing the pop and crackle while listening through the speakers. This maybe only with the headphone amp.


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## austinpop

I did hear back from Alex, who said he'd passed it on to the dev team. He promised to get back with an update when he has one.


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## music_man

no! I am was getting pops at 44.1/16 redbook! I introduced what i would just call a power supply that happens to be from ifi and it stopped. very strange. something with the cable apparently. i wonder if just a $10 usb hub would fix the issue but of course it probably would not sound as good as the ifi, regen or any other thing tailored to power supply.
  
 also it depends heavily on your source. i had to run the tusb through foo asio in jriver to completely alleviate the issue. this is very odd. i never had a dac pop like this. not even a $300 one. i wonder if there is an engineering flaw in their design. for $1,800 if that is the case they should offer to fix them. i bet they would too as ayre is a very reputable usa based company. of course i have no idea what they would do to remedy it but i am just guessing they are good people.
  
 i fixed it entirely but there is some issue apparently and this is a bummer. sure i have the diamond dac v and it is much more expensive but i do not consider $1,800 a cheap dac either.
  
 it figures there would be a fly in the ointment with this. since it is so good, shooting way higher than it's price tag. it is a real shame but you can work around it. if you are using an aurender or something i am not sure you can though. you can provide power to the cable which may fix it but you cannot chose your asio driver.
  
 i would go try a $10 usb hub and see what happens. i would be very interested in that. of course it would not sound as good but it would explain some issue with powering the cable. since the codex does not use +5v usb. that might in fact be the whole problem. there is no voltage reference. of course higher end dacs can pull that off but maybe not the codex. to tell the truth i am not sure what the issue is but it seems to be with powering the cable.
  
 on another note their drivers are for windows vista.. they really need to update them and perhaps that alone fixes the issue. in windows 10 you must use compatibility mode to install the drivers. if you are using something above windows vista the kernal is not designed for it. i am just pulling straws here because there is an issue but i am not sure what it is.
  
 this just figures.


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## cygnusx

@music_man , I'm starting to think that this is a design flaw since it's happening with both the USB and Optical inputs (Oppo + Aurender).  I'm going to rise the issue with Ayre.  I've heard $500 DACs that don't make this type of pop and crackle sound.  To your point and in my view a $1800 DAC should behavior better.


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## cygnusx

Tested the Codex with my stereo and speakers.  Although, I hear some noise between songs while I was flipping, I did not hear the type of popping or crackling that I heard using the headphones.  In fact, when I changed the Aurender setting to delay 1 second for the DAC to adjust to new sampling rates, I didn't anything and it was absolutely clean while flipping through songs.   When I tried the same delay setting using headphones, although the music would delay and start 1 second later matching the delay setting, the popping and crackling was still there, making a sound immediately after I click on a new song.  I reached out to Ayre, let's see what they say.


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## music_man

this is very unfortunate. i did not realize it happens with the optical as well. so then my idea about the usb cable must be wrong. i sincerely hope ayre stands behind it. i bet they will though. otherwise it is a very nice dac for the money.


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## BlackstoneJD

Did you power cycle the dac? Unplug power cord for like 30 seconds and then plug back in? If the issue is hardware related I am sure they will address it. I am wondering if when you added the power supply thing what really resolved it was power cycling the unit. Even the most expensive devices probably need a reboot from time to time.
  
 The driver they use is the Streamlength Driver which is used by a bunch of async USB devices and there is no newer version of that driver that I am aware of. I think Windows 10 handles it very well and considering how complicated my system is (two video cards, six core cpu, the works) and considering I run games that push the CPU and GPU into high utilization and feed the dac from the machine at the same time (both game audio sometimes and wasapi music audio over the game), I would say the driver is remarkably stable on Windows 10.
  
 Another source of potential issues is DPC latency on your computer if you are streaming in realtime via async USB or optical. It could be _another driver _causing DPC latency on your computer. That will certainly cause crackles and pops.  You can measure it. That is a computer side issue caused by drivers. I had DPC latency pop up once when I got a new video card setup. Pops and crackling. Then I got the DPC latency measuring tool and found out my computer was having serious latency issues and I was able to address it although I can't for the life of me remember how I tamed the latency. Disable anything you don't really use on your PC.
  
 There is an issue right now with NVIDIA's latest GTX 1080 graphics cards that cause DPC latency and they are addressing it. If you are feeding with a PC I would look into updating or rolling back or reinstalling video card drivers.
  
 Edit: Disregard everything I just said if you are not using a PC as source.


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## cygnusx

blackstonejd said:


> Did you power cycle the dac? Unplug power cord for like 30 seconds and then plug back in? If the issue is hardware related I am sure they will address it. I am wondering if when you added the power supply thing what really resolved it was power cycling the unit. Even the most expensive devices probably need a reboot from time to time.
> 
> The driver they use is the Streamlength Driver which is used by a bunch of async USB devices and there is no newer version of that driver that I am aware of. I think Windows 10 handles it very well and considering how complicated my system is (two video cards, six core cpu, the works) and considering I run games that push the CPU and GPU into high utilization and feed the dac from the machine at the same time (both game audio sometimes and wasapi music audio over the game), I would say the driver is remarkably stable on Windows 10.
> 
> ...


 
 Interesting point on the power cycle.  I'll try power cycling the DAC tonight (although, I think I already tried this....) and then I'll try putting back in the stock power cord.  Let's see how things goes.  I'll let you guys know.


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## cygnusx

Power cycling does not help. I also tried changing the power cable to stock and that doesn't help either. Honestly, I'm a bit upset because I put nice a big old scratch on the face of the Aurender switching out power cables by accident. I still have not heard back from Ayre.


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## music_man

This is interesting. I am running an evo 950 ssd m2 and it takes longer to boot than my platter based system. i see nothing on startup or any odd services running. i have no idea what could cause this. obviously some drivers are loading and that may be the issue. i don't know. it could also very well be hardware on the ayre. there is a windows 10 streamlength driver. it is ver. 3.34 ayre has not apopted but i feel they should. windows 10 has been out a while. regardless of it it works. i just do not know what this is. i need to fire up the cd transport and see what happens.


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## BlackstoneJD

YOur m2 drive should not take longer to boot than your spinner. That 950 m2 is like one of the fastest drives on the market. The Samsung Magician Utility has a function called rapid mode that tremendously increases the performance of their drives. Also it has performance optimization utilities. I would definitely give it a shot.  Your drive might need to be optimized.
  
 I am not sure if Music Man and Cygnusx are experiencing the same issue or not. If you can produce the issue with a disc player it logically is not a PC or driver related issue. It could be something that can be fixed with firmware or perhaps it is a hardware issue. For this type of thing you really need the support of your dealer and have them get it on their test bench.


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## austinpop

Hey y'all - sorry to hear your ongoing issues are unresolved. Can someone summarize succinctly the 2 issues - @music_man and @cygnusx - are experiencing?
  
 My issue - *pop/ticks at DSF/DFF track boundaries* - is, I think, a different one, which has not been resolved, but there are strong indications that it's an artifact of extraction tools like sacd-ripper (sacd_extract), and not the HW.
  
 I did a comparison of the same piece of music ripped from ISO vs purchased online (CDnow), and found no pops/ticks on the purchased version. See my post here: http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f11-software/sacd-iso-dsf-no-clicks-23588/index3.html#post562682
  
 It is still true that some DAC and/or streamers seem to handle this better than others. Still, Ayre's position, and I agree with them, is that they cannot devote resources to issues with the source, especially when it involves open-source tools used to extract content.
  
 I've decided I can live with the slight ticks. I have relatively few albums where tracks flow into each other - in my case, mostly Mahler symphonies! - so for these, I can rip the entire disc as a single DFF file, and convert to DSF manually to tag.
  
 Life on the bleeding edge, eh!


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## KmanChu

I doubt you are going to get much of a satisfactory answer from Ayre. It sounds like your noises may be a bit beyond what I am accustomed to hearing, but I think it may be related to the Streamlength USB driver software they are utilizing. I had a QB-9DSD and I got similar behavior with a slight click or skip sound when the dac changed sample rates.  They may require you to send it back for evaluation if you think it is beyond what is reasonable so perhaps it could be related to your particular unit. The clicks with my codex seems consistent with what I had with the QB-9DSD.
  
 The first dac I encountered this with was the iFi micro iDSD. There was a big fuss on the iFi thread about it and I think they eventually managed to address the issue through driver and/or firmware upgrades.The thing is, iFi/AMR use their own USB driver that they developed in house, so they had complete control and access, I am not so sure Ayre has this capability. The fact it exists in both products I have owned makes me think it is something baked into the hardware/software implementation. It was never hugely a problem for me, but I do notice it and think that it really shouldn't be there in a such an otherwise stellar product.


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## yage

I tested my QB-9 DSD a few days ago for this problem and don't get a click / pop when switching sampling rates. I'm using a generic USB cable from Blue Jeans and a stock power cord. It could be dependent on the USB port on the computer. Maybe the machine is shutting down the port or putting it in a suspend state when no data is being transmitted (e.g. when 'switching' tracks) which creates the noise when it powers the port back up.


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## BlackstoneJD

Note Jriver might have some features designed to avoid this. Like "play silence to avoid clicks/pops".


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## music_man

as i said i have a long usb cable. a "power supply" has fixed that. i used the cd transport and had no issues with discs. i think some of you have other issues than i did. however they could stand to update the streamlength driver nonetheless.
  
 a lot of this issues may be with the source and/or files though.


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## KmanChu

I've played with this issue of ticks and pops for quite a while with both Ayre products and finally just learned to accept it. Now that I think about it, I briefly owned another Sabre and Streamlength dac (BMC PureDAC) and it also had similar behavior when switching between sample rates or to and from DSD. I figured it was just part of the USB implementation or some sort of internal switching with the dac chip. Perhaps it is specific to my computer. It would be quite odd though because I have made sure that it is the only USB device on that controller. Sometimes the click doesn't happen at all, sometimes it is fairly soft and non-offensive, and very occassionally it is fairly hard and makes me think that shouldn't be like that. Right now I am using the stock usb cable that shipped with the Codex, although I have used others.
  
 I have JRiver and Roon set to run some silence of ahead of tracks to allow the software to synchronize. I had switched to Roon because of the excellent Tidal integration, but I now notice that JRiver is better behaved than Roon. However, some of the behavior persists, particularly switching from DSD to PCM. Looking at the sample rate display, it occurs exactly when the sample rate changes on the display.  I think it is related to the DoP implementation because it occurs at the end of DSD tracks when the display transitions from "64" to "176", when the DAC recognizes the DoP packets are no longer coming.


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## cygnusx

I've pretty much given up for now. Just waiting for Ayre to respond back. I've left both voice mail and email but no reply yet. Also, now the socket for the power in the back of the codex is lose...it wigglies back and forth a bit. I really want like to have this thing looked at. Let's see. The good news is that it still sounds great once it gets going.


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## music_man

i seem to have fixed my issues. i think the sabre will just do that switching sample rates but it can be eliminated mostly. as for the socket you mean the socket is loose in the metal chassis? if so that is bad and must be serviced. otherwise i have lots of power cables that will wiggle "in" the socket but that is really the fault of the cable. these things are very heavy often times. i hope everyone gets it sorted out, lives with it or moves on because otherwise it is a very good dac.
  
 i wonder how he qx-5 twenty will fair. it would be a shame if ayre is just having assembly issues all of the sudden.


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## cygnusx

I got a response back from Ayre.  According to Michael @ Ayre the engineers took a look and concluded that the Codex making a sound while switching between different bitrate songs (switching in the middle of songs) is normal.   According to Ayre, they could have designed the Codex to eliminate this sound completely, but choose not too.   Note, a faint sound can be heard even when the songs finish and play in order, but it's definitely less noticeable (Ayre says that this is normal as well).   At this point, Ayre does not have plans to address the crackling and popping sounds (apparently, there are technical limitations in the design).  I suspect this was a design trade off to keep the price low.  Who really knows, I got an answer back and I'll live with it.  For me the sound quality, for the price of the DAC, completely out weights the popping sound that I get when using headphones.  It's not the answer I wanted to hear especially if they are promoting the Codex as a headphone dac/amp, but I can live with it.  The sound quality is just too good to consider something else, unless I go significantly higher in price.


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## cygnusx

Lastly, the power socket chassis in the back of the Codex popping in and out slightly when replacing your power cable, apparently is normal as well.


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## music_man

the power cable can be normal with any iec. the standard spec is rather loose on the socket because they are not sure what all cable manufacturers will provide. some fit tighter than others. having the anaconda hx hanging out the back of it as i do would certainly not be fair to complain about. the cable weighs more than the codex. i understand this is not what you are doing but that you can trust is rather normal. even big brands like sony es the cable in the package is not always tight.
  
 my issue was cable length so i powered it. it could be your source, their drivers or a bad. unit. honestly i am not pleased with their answer. if you are that is good. i have heard $300 dac's with the chip that don't do that and neither does my codex. they cut cost but not quality imo. i actually think the codex is their product that is perhaps not overpriced. often beating dac's four times it's price to my ears. "twenty" products may have competition at lower price points. nonetheless both sound very good to me. this happens sometimes with anything. i am sorry it has to you. other than an outright failure many manufacturers will provide answers like that. i do not think they are correct because not everyone's codex exhibits this behavior afaik. there are too many factors involved which is probably why an answer like that was provided. however i think they just shot themselves in the foot to say it is inherit in the design. i am not convinced that it is.


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## austinpop

cygnusx said:


> I got a response back from Ayre.  According to Michael @ Ayre the engineers took a look and concluded that the Codex making a sound while switching between different bitrate songs (switching in the middle of songs) is normal.   According to Ayre, they could have designed the Codex to eliminate this sound completely, but choose not too.   Note, a faint sound can be heard even when the songs finish and play in order, but it's definitely less noticeable (Ayre says that this is normal as well).   At this point, Ayre does not have plans to address the crackling and popping sounds (apparently, there are technical limitations in the design).  I suspect this was a design trade off to keep the price low.  Who really knows, I got an answer back and I'll live with it.  For me the sound quality, for the price of the DAC, completely out weights the popping sound that I get when using headphones.  It's not the answer I wanted to hear especially if they are promoting the Codex as a headphone dac/amp, but I can live with it.  The sound quality is just too good to consider something else, unless I go significantly higher in price.


 
  
 Truly disappointing to hear the "oh, well" attitude of Ayre to this problem. I don't consider slight pop/ticks to be acceptable. $1900 may be a low price point for them, but it is high-end for many people, and no one wants to buy a product that they feel is compromised.
  
 I was hoping for many years of Codex enjoyment, but now I'm not so sure.


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## cygnusx

austinpop, btw did you hear back from Alex? Since I use it mainly as main DAC and the issue is primarily when I use headphones, it's not so bad. I feel for you guys using it as your main headphone amp and you hear it all the time.


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## austinpop

cygnusx said:


> @austinpop, btw did you hear back from Alex? Since I use it mainly as main DAC and the issue is primarily when I use headphones, it's not so bad. I feel for you guys using it as your main headphone amp and you hear it all the time.


 
  
 I did. I mentioned it back in post 493.
  
 Luckily I haven't really heard the pop/tick issue with sample rate changes on PCM files, since I don't really listen to music that way. I imagine if you have a playlist with tracks at different rate/resolutions, it would get annoying. I might try that experiment one of these days.
  
 No, my issue is on DSD, as I explained in that post.
  
 It sounds like the issue is just more noticeable when using headphones, not so much using the Codex as a headphone amp. I'm sure it would be just as audible if you used the Codex as a DAC feeding a separate headphone amp. I will find out more once my Liquid Gold arrives!


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## austinpop

Let me elaborate a bit on my previous post.
  
 I can accept Ayre's lack of motivation to fix my DSD problem, as it appears to be as much an issue with SACD extraction tools than anything else, so it's a rather narrow use case.
  
 The issue with pop/ticks when switching _*sample rate *_or _*resolution *_to me seems to be a more egregious issue, since the use case - playing back sequential tracks with differing sample rates in a playlist - can hardly be considered a corner case.
  
 While it is true that some upstream tools like JRiver can suppress these pop/ticks, I don't think Ayre should assume everyone uses such tools upstream. This should be a feature of their DAC.


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## music_man

austinpop, +1! pretty much what i said. $1,900 is end game to a lot of people. it is unfair of them imo. I am guessing but i bet they stand behind a "twenty" component better than the codex. which is completely unfair. they should not have made it if they felt it is not worthy of their time. i do not think it is budget at all. sure, budget for ayre but not by real world standards. the fact remains it is a huge bargain. regardless of ayre sees it that way. of course i cannot speak for ayre, just guessing.


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## cygnusx

austinpop, +2.   I agree with you guys, but not much we can do.  I will give Michael a follow up call.  Some times I wonder if these guys are actually in touch with real users.


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## austinpop

cygnusx said:


> austinpop, +2.   I agree with you guys, but not much we can do.  I will give Michael a follow up call.  Some times I wonder if these guys are actually in touch with real users.




Yup, all we can do is express our dissatisfaction, and ultimately depending on the level of dissatisfaction, vote with our checkbooks.

Personally, I'm still happy enough with the Codex, but I am watching the whole MQA and Tidal space. If MQA actually takes off - and that's a big if - I may be on the market again. But I've been around the block enough times with new tech to ignore the hype and wait and see.


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## yage

austinpop said:


> If MQA actually takes off - and that's a big if - I may be on the market again.


 
  
 I wouldn't hold my breath. In my opinion MQA is a lossy codec for 'high-resolution' audio that is primarily concerned with marketing and satisfying the insecurities of the recording industry (_i.e._ removing the ability to access the real goods without some sort of licensing structure).


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## austinpop

I never said I was holding my breath!
  
 As I *did* say: let's wait and see.


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## ToddRaymond

I heard the Codex briefly last week.  I heard the HE-560s through the pair of balanced outs, and was definitely impressed.  I didn't get a chance to hear it as a standalone DAC.  I could see with quieter music/music with a tremendous dynamic range, that it might not quite have enough juice for something like the HE-560s for some.  Nothing overly new here, since the same has been said about using it with the HD800s.  Considering many have figured it to be in the same ballpark as the QB-9 DSD, it's certainly a bargain.
  
 I wonder if anyone could comment on how it compares to a Schiit Mjolnir 2.  I imagine the latter would offer up the extra power I'd prefer for the aforementioned cans.  I'd also be curious to hear more comparisons between it and both Gungnir Multibit and Yggdrasil.  I realize this one's not a multibit DAC, so it will offer a different flavour.  In fact, one could argue that the Schiit DACs won't so much offer a flavour (vs. the Codex), as they're fully faithful to the original samples and such.  I had the 'Gumby' (which I was very much pleased with), and am currently saving up for the 'Yggy', but for this could do for now, especially considering it could take care of amp duties.  Hmm, I say....


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## KmanChu

Can't speak to the Schiit dacs, and I do know the Hifiman does require a lot of gain, so the Codex may not quite have the voltage swing for the HE-560, but I wouldn't know since I haven't tried it with them. What I can say is with the HD800S and the LCD-3, if you are running out of volume then you are listening too loud and risking damaging your hearing. I never have gone above the low 80's on the volume dial in balance mode with either of these headphones. The only scenario I can think of might be some of the old classical recordings which were very low level when transferred to digital.


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## music_man

the sciit i would bet has a better headphone amp. as for a dac i needed the codex due to a size requirement. as i previously stated i did not expect much. i am using it only as a dac for loudspeakers. i was extremely surprised. i am not for headphone amps in dacs though. if you can get an amp. i am betting the codex headphone amp is about a fiio. i don't know though so quite frankly i am just talking smack. now here is the real deal about ayre imo. it was so subtle i just noticed now. my shalco volume knob does not turn in a perfect circle. about .5 degree lopsided. yes, that is incredible nitpicking. the thing is a amp at that price should be as holy as the pope imo. especially given it's paltry specs. i don't mind at all because i really am not a nitpicker. i am just saying they are not perfect. nothing is. it is a shame for people that had issues with the codex but i find it unacceptable honestly. it simply should not do that. their stance may be as i said which is why they may seem to care less. there are too many variables for them that may not be the codex itself. source, program on source,settings in program, cables. if a dedicated like aurender it might just not jive. nothing is guaranteed to be comparable. even if it is analog we were talking about let alone digital. still, i feel your pain. they should at least be more helpful. yeah it sucks of them. my issue was with a longer cable than it liked but still under 16.33 feet usb spec. way under at 13 feet. however these audiophile cables often do not meet usb specification. so i can see their stance but they could at least offer to be helpful geez. i fixed it by powering it. which is no surprise since you will need to power cables beyond usb spec. the thing is mine is well under usb length. it may simply have too much resistance with a ton of thick silver. as far as the toslink i have no issues. i am using a cd transport that costs over 12x the price of the codex. if that is what you "require" for it then that would be complete bs. to be honest it should work fine with a $50 dvd player and a $10 3 foot toslink cable. just the fact that the ax-5 twenty is not absolutely flawless, even just cosmetically shows where they are coming from. i stated i needed a tiny dac that performs and alas, they showed me the codez. i thought it was great so i bought the amp the next week. amazingly beforehand i had never heard of ayre. to tell the truth if there is to be a "next time" i may very well look to another brand. the codex might be the only dac at it's price with sound like this. as for their "twenty" components i think one could do better for less money. again, here i had a height constraint so the ax-5 twenty fit the bill and seemed at the time better than the bryston etc. offering. i really have no issues with either even though some may. i am just baffled to hear about their customer service. i talked to alex and he was nice enough i guess. just going by what iothers say they experienced i think is completely unfair of them. i also think it is obscene the codex is not running on 3.34 streamlength drivers. it was built well after the driver it has. even just getting it to launch on windows 10 x64 pro is a chore. so, yeah i could see it might be flaky on some systems. i have no idea why the only driver is for windows vista/7. that in fact could be many a persons problem right there. the problem is there are just to many variables involved. for them to turn a cold shoulder is really shady though imo. i am just darn glad i do not have this issue. still the driver is bs. i am capable of reverse engineering the 3.34 driver. i do not feel i should have to, it is not legal and i certainly could not distribute it. in fact i have not even attempted it since it is a complete waste of my time since it is working here. i am very sorry about the whole thing to those that have had issues. ayre apparently is not perfect, but who is? if the dac were to be functioning as is mine i doubt you could do better often for 3x the price but the amp i am not sure. i am happy with both though. regardless of the stupid volume knob i guess i was pretty lucky. had i not been i would have used a stronger voice which i suggest those with issues do so. when working properly i think most people would be very pleased. perhaps not with the headphone output but as a dac. i would be hard pressed to find a dac at this price that performs as this one does and it just happened to fit my space. so i guess i was the lucky one here.


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## austinpop

I have not had the chance to spend much time with Schiit gear. Since the Schiit-heads (no malice, just enjoying the word play!) don't do DSD, and since I have a lot of DSD, their gear just doesn't fit my music.

FWIW - I have heard the Yggy-Ragnarok combo with my HD800 at a local meet. There's no denying the muscularity of the low end, and the prodigious power. I only spent about 10 minutes with it, but to my ears it wasn't a good match for the HD800. 

There's a sweetness and musicality in the Codex I don't remember hearing from the Schiit stack.

YMMV.


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## music_man

you have to hand it to them though. i mean their business model. how do they build all that in the usa for a fair price yet no one else can? the codex is ayre's cheapest piece and is at the end of schiits price range.
  
 also, i do not fully understand myself why the jokes are so funny to adults. i mean they make me laugh and i am as old as sand. other 3rd grade jokes do not make me laugh but somehow they do every single time lol.  actually they might be a lot smarter than we think. obviously everyone knows the name if not the products.
  
 they have their reasons for no dsd but if you have a lot so be it. it would not be for you then. agree. however getting into things like 10x dsd is honestly way above the limits of human hearing. 2x is fine. in fact you will find many an expensive dac does but 2x.
  
 i still am guessing the headphone amp might be better but have no idea really. i bet the codex is a much better dac.


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## yage

turdski said:


> I'd also be curious to hear more comparisons between it and both Gungnir Multibit and Yggdrasil.


 
  
 A fellow Head-Fi'er brought his Gumby over and I heard it very briefly in my system, where I usually listen to either an Ayre QB-9 DSD or C-5xeMP. The Gumby didn't seem to be as resolving as either Ayre source. It's pleasant sounding, but I didn't find it as engaging as I thought I would. I've also heard the Yggdrasil several times at meets. My educated guess is that the Codex is in the same league as the Yggy and a step above the Gumby.


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## ToddRaymond

Thanks for chimin' in everyone.  I should probably should just order and spend some time with it.  I very much doubt I'd me unhappy with it.  I'd like to upgrade the cables for my Hifimans, but am hesitant to get a cable that's terminated to the pair of 3.5 mm connectors if I'm just going to likely just wind up with a headphone amp that uses a 4-pin XLR.  Amp-wise, I think I could live with it for a while anyhow, and it'd be nice to be able to use my cans with my Pono Player.  Whether or not it would be a preferred DAC or not over the Yggdrasil would be up to someone who has spent a bit of time with both, but the Codex, especially considering its dealer markup, appears to represent a damn fine value considering its price.


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## austinpop

turdski said:


> Thanks for chimin' in everyone.  I should probably should just order and spend some time with it.  I very much doubt I'd me unhappy with it.  I'd like to upgrade the cables for my Hifimans, but am hesitant to get a cable that's terminated to the pair of 3.5 mm connectors if I'm just going to likely just wind up with a headphone amp that uses a 4-pin XLR.  Amp-wise, I think I could live with it for a while anyhow, and it'd be nice to be able to use my cans with my Pono Player.  Whether or not it would be a preferred DAC or not over the Yggdrasil would be up to someone who has spent a bit of time with both, but the Codex, especially considering its dealer markup, appears to represent a damn fine value considering its price.



 


Do you have a local Ayre dealer in Vancouver? You should check and see if they can lend you a broken-in unit to audition. My local guy was absolutely awesome, although the rest of the gear in his "store" was wayyy more expensive.

Regarding cables, I was in exactly that situation. I am using the Codex as the amp for the last few months, but will be upgrading my amp to a Cavalli Liquid Gold (LAu) in a couple of months. The LAu has 4-pin XLR balanced outputs. I can tell you what I did.

My solution was to get a balanced Moon Audio Black Dragon cable for my HD800, terminated with 4-pin XLR, and separately, an adapter with female XLR to dual 3.5mm plugs for the Codex - like this one: https://www.moon-audio.com/black-dragon-extension-adapter-cable-v2.html. I'm sure other cable manufacturers can offer something similar.

This arrangement really pays off if you have both a main head amp, and a Pono player.

I was a little concerned about the additional connectors in the path, but have heard no noise issues at all. The XLR terminators that Drew@Moon uses are extremely high quality and fit really well together.


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## music_man

i do not mean to start any trouble. my personal feeling is the codex is a little better overall than the qb-9 dsd. a few other people have felt that way too so i am not crazy. as for the qx-5 twenty, i would certainly hope that sounds better than the codex. who knows though. it is really a server and a dac. i take the codex as just a dac that happens to have a headphone output. i know there are way better headphone amps but dacs you really need to get into over 5 grand to blow away the codex. even then you must choose wisely. since it will in fact beat out some 5 grand dacs. perhaps ayre does not realize they created a monster. i think they feel this is just their cheapie offering. perhaps they should sit down and listen to it. seriously though i am sure the reason they are not gung ho on supporting it is due to it being their bottom product. that is a shame though. since for one thing it hits way higher than it's price point. i guess ayre could just not care. truthfully as i said though there are too many variables for them to begin to. i would not expect them to troubleshoot my pc or cable. the same goes for the qx-5 twenty quite frankly. although i bet they would offer more help with that. regardless, if it is working as mine is it is a very competent dac. i would say the dac is better than any schiit but as i also said i am not sure about the headamp. the head amp is probably just stuck on with an op amp. i doubt they have a 500va torroid powering bipolar jfets in there. as i dac, given it's size i am very well pleased. sure i have much better dacs but they are large and cost much more. i will say in this form factor i know of nothing better.


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## cygnusx

music_man said:


> i do not mean to start any trouble. my personal feeling is the codex is a little better overall than the qb-9 dsd. a few other people have felt that way too so i am not crazy. as for the qx-5 twenty, i would certainly hope that sounds better than the codex. who knows though. it is really a server and a dac. i take the codex as just a dac that happens to have a headphone output. i know there are way better headphone amps but dacs you really need to get into over 5 grand to blow away the codex. even then you must choose wisely. since it will in fact beat out some 5 grand dacs. perhaps ayre does not realize they created a monster. i think they feel this is just their cheapie offering. perhaps they should sit down and listen to it. seriously though i am sure the reason they are not gung ho on supporting it is due to it being their bottom product. that is a shame though. since for one thing it hits way higher than it's price point. i guess ayre could just not care. truthfully as i said though there are too many variables for them to begin to. i would not expect them to troubleshoot my pc or cable. the same goes for the qx-5 twenty quite frankly. although i bet they would offer more help with that. regardless, if it is working as mine is it is a very competent dac. i would say the dac is better than any schiit but as i also said i am not sure about the headamp. the head amp is probably just stuck on with an op amp. i doubt they have a 500va torroid powering bipolar jfets in there. as i dac, given it's size i am very well pleased. sure i have much better dacs but they are large and cost much more. i will say in this form factor i know of nothing better.


+1. The codex is not perfect but when It plays...the music sounds really good. So good that one can probably overlook any of its short comings.


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## KmanChu

music_man said:


> the sciit i would bet has a better headphone amp..... i am not for headphone amps in dacs though. if you can get an amp. i am betting the codex headphone amp is about a fiio. i don't know though so quite frankly i am just talking smack.


 
 Dude, you really are talking smack! The headphone outputs are coupled directly to the XLR outputs, which is why Ayre suggests unplugging the rear XLRs before listening to the headphone outs. This leads me to think the very same output devices are used for the headphone outs. Indeed, if you look the preamp voltage swing on the XLRs is the same as the headphone outs. At any rate, it is a discrete design utilizing Ayre's diamond output topology. See @austinpop 's review, he preferred the Codex direct from it's balanced outputs vs the Senn HDVA600 (which I haven't heard, but it's highly regarded.) If you haven't tried the headphone outs then you really should. It is really quite remarkable.


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## KmanChu

cygnusx said:


> +1. The codex is not perfect but when It plays...the music sounds really good. So good that one can probably overlook any of its short comings.


 
  
 Agreed. There is nothing even close right now. It is too bad though, they should figure out how to fix the clicking, I would think it could be done even with firmware.


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## music_man

kman, i had no idea honestly. i figured it was just a cheap headphone driver board stuck on. i stand corrected then.
  
 edit: if this thing sounds through headphones like it does into a loudspeaker setup then it really is like 10+ grand of components. maybe all don't agree but if you dig this sound you are set. this is imo worthy of an end game setup. of course it is not though because dac's are like cpu's. there is a way better technology every six months. still, you could keep this and be content. my cd's have not gotten any better, only the stuff that plays them back. that is questionable too. in the 60's you remember the equipment. it was robust to say the least. you can pry my old marantz and benjiman miracord from my cold dead hands.
  
 anyways this is utter bs about the pops and clicks. i suggest everyone in this thread call alex. that should get his attention. they have an otherwise super grade dac that has a huge fly in the ointment. to me it is inexcusable. i don't care one bit that it is their cheapest product. they should stand behind all their items.
  
 what they are missing or even perhaps miffed at is they created a monster. this is not like in the teac thread we say it is a $1k dac that can compete with $2k dacs(sometimes). i have had the codex steadily beat 10 grand dacs to my ears imo. this is in a serious business listening environment where i can instantly a/b. not my bedroom where it currently resides. so, this is worth preserving if not at least making to function properly.
  
 as i have said i have heard $300 dacs with the sabre that don't do that. they made some mistake and i guess they do not want to admit it.


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## eddprzz

Sorry guys I just have to add my two cents but I've been listening to the codex with the auralic taurus 2 amp all I can say is "******* amazing". This is clearly my end of the line. I use it with lcd3 with norne vanquish cable (balanced) and kaiser 10u and it makes both sound just perfect


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## music_man

i am just using the dac and to sound like a broken record this can paas for a dac 3+x it's price. i really want the qx-5 but i just want a plain dac. headphone is okay. i do not have room for it here anyways so forget it. i mentioned this is in the middle of six figures of equipment and sounds right at home. it is really something. i kind of imagine the qx-5 is beyond human hearing limits. so maybe don't even hear a difference that qualifies as superior. newer chip better crystals. heh who am i kidding. well, i guess only ayre themselves could make a better one.


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## Seth Warshavsky

How does it compare to the Hugo TT or the PS Audio Directstream?


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## music_man

i felt is squarely beat the directstream but of course ymmv. it works great in my system but maybe not as well in another. i also wonder if one is using headphones it depends on which ones. this stuff is very subjective. it is not like saying car a runs a faster quarter mile than car b. it is more like do you like a bmw interior better than a mercedes. nonetheless i heard a big difference from the directstream but that is me. the fact that i felt it beat it so solidly at it's price says a lot. to me at least. plus what it does in relation to it's size is really nice.
  
 ayre have a few key technologies that really work. it is much more than the dac chip at play. normally i would not want to see a good dac with an off the shelf chip. they obviously worked around that somehow. i have never opened it. i just don't want to. oddly there are no pictures of the guts i know of on the internet as of now. very surprised someone did not tear it open yet but it will not be me this time. i am too happy with it.
  
 of course directstream has 10x dsd to pcm but i honestly feel that technology is not working.
  
 i compared it to dave and it was different but held it's own. so hugo i have no doubt. that is really impressive quite frankly. i honestly hate to find out what the darn qx-5 twenty does because i cannot fit it.


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## BlackstoneJD

I posted on the QX-5. I heard it in what I think was a $60,000+ system. It was redonkulous good. It certainly was not beyond human hearing. Don't listen to it if you like what you have! The analog circuitry and proprietary digital filters make the Ayre magic happen.

Also the headphone output on QX-5 was definitely as good as the main output. It was uncanny how similar it sounded through my cans vs. $16,000 speakers!


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## music_man

i figured this. it is not that i cannot buy it. i have no room. that is why finding the codex was very lucky. if i feel it is better than the diamond dac v i guess i could replace that downstairs. i don't mean to be a jerk but $60,000 was not a large system for that store. you can spend obscene money there. the fact it sounded the same in your cans is impressive. most dacs need an outboard amp. i guess someone could just get that as a awesome headphone system then. you know what? i will make room in here screw it. just have to figure out how. the codex is by far the cheapest component here but it is still plenty good.


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## BlackstoneJD

I am just estimating on the price. Power conditioning and cabling was first rate I might be underestimating there. The speaker cable I think was $25k? They used the 803D3 because I wanted to hear that speaker. It is a totally new speaker and I was curious what it could do. The 802D3 is even better and of course eventually 800D3. But, I wanted to hear stuff in my price range. Right now I am very interested in the 802D3 and the AX-5 Twenty.

I am going to try and swing a pair of 802s next but wife will probably murder me!


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## music_man

see this stuff is so personal. that is why i always say one must listen. especially if it is expensive stuff. i don't like the b&w very much. i think the diamond tweeter is too bright. other people love them of course.
  
 oh, if the cables were 25 grand the system was way more than 60 grand i bet. especially if they played wilsons. that's another thing i don't like transparent but many people do as well.
  
 just depends what you like. i am sure we can all agree the qx-5 is great even if it is not someones sonic taste. same as i acknowledge the speakers. i don't prefer them but i know they are good.
  
 i can say the ax-5 twenty i love. i thought you wanted the qx-5 twenty though?
  
 well that would be a good system but i think the ax-5 twenty is a little under powered for those speakers. it will power them but not with the oomph. for me it is an integral part of the best compact system i could get. it would probably be very good with the 805d3 though. it is a great amp it is just not big on output rms. unless you heard it and were satisfied.
  
 i really have to hear the qx-5 twenty. i can't go there due to disability so hopefully i can get one sent here eventually. i have no clue where it would fit. the last thing i want to do is box in the speakers. i guess it could replace the cd transport.


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## bmichels

It Will be very interesting to hear a comparaison between the *qx-5 twenty and the DAVE*. Almost same price and booth including a good Headphone amp. (The qx-5 twenty being In additional ROON ready)


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## music_man

i compared the codex to dave. dave did not kill it! so i am guessing qx-5 twenty is going to smash dave. of course it is really anyone's opinion but we all know the men from the boys. of course i have not heard the qx-5 twenty but i can only imagine it is 10x the codex.


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## music_man

ayre must have shot themself in the foot and then tried to cover it up. although i feel their method of "covering it up" is unfair. since many people may now not see what they need.
  
 see, they removed the pc usb driver from all codex pages of theirs. they put a driver for the qx-5 twenty on it's page. lo-and-behold that driver works with the codex. not only that but the sound quality is vastly improved. over an already competent dac. closing the gap betwen the codex and qx-5. obviously they did not want this to happen so their effort was to make it tricky to find the driver. ymmv on this. the qx-5 is still a better dac than the codex no doubt but really only worth it if you require a digital media center/preamp. go try these drivers! uninstall yours first. reboot. if upon it says to unplug your dac please do so. it also upsets me ayre with this expensive gear were to cheap to buy the newest streamlength drivers. that is shameful honestly. the new one works splendid for me. the seperation and soundstage, prat all just tripled. this is obviously why they did not want people to find it. it is the same driver but the install methods are rewritten for higher efficiency. it is sad though that the $9,000 qx-5 is running on a 5 year old driver.
  
 alsi i am pretty sure the headphone output on both of them is from the ess dac chip not the rear output of the units. that would explain a similar sound through headphones. the 9018 is 8 years old but it is time tested. obviously the 9038 has better specs but specs do not mean everything.. stlil only supports 2x dsd which in a $9,000 dac would not sell me.
  
 anyways i heard it and the diamond dac v with power base is much better at much more money and it is just a dac. sems ayre is jumping on the apple bus. the codex on the other hand with these drivers is a great bargain. watch now they see this and remove the driver entirely. i would snag it while you can. ac has a used debussey which i feel would be a much better choice so long as you do not need an "entertainment center". that is what jriver is for and vastly superior at that. i am not bashing it it was just not the bargain to me the codex is(especially with these drivers) since all i care for is a "dac". it seems companies are forgetting that word. i could care less about headphone jacks, roon, tidal, volume control etc. that is just me though. the qx-5 may be right up someone elses alley. it is a top class dac don't get me wrong. just not my cup of tea. however the codex is and remains so. keep it simple stupid.
  
 feel free to disagree. this is my opinion it is fine if anyone elses is different. right now, imo the codex is the king bargain. easily beating many $5k plus dacs. throw in these drivers and i would say it literally doubles the performance.of an already competent dac.
  
  
 one thing if you do snag these drivers make sure to use them in wasapi exclusive mode. i would not say wasapi is better than asio it's a tossup but on these specific drivers it is a lot better imo.
  
 they just accidentally narrowed the margin and obviously realized it. of course this is only with usb usage. fancy crystals and such also require good software to drive them.
  
 also, of course there is science and voodoo. i do not need crystal oscillators from the moon. well, they just did not sell me on this one. the codex is most cetainly the sweet spot. you all should be happy since this a codex thread but i am sure i will get flamed. at least be sure to try out the drivers.


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## BlackstoneJD

Music Man have you heard the QX-5?


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## BlackstoneJD

Music Man what is the version number? of the Streamlength driver you are talking about?


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## BlackstoneJD

music_man said:


> ayre must have shot themself in the foot and then tried to cover it up. although i feel their method of "covering it up" is unfair. since many people may now not see what they need.
> 
> see, they removed the pc usb driver from all codex pages of theirs. they put a driver for the qx-5 twenty on it's page. lo-and-behold that driver works with the codex. not only that but the sound quality is vastly improved. over an already competent dac. closing the gap betwen the codex and qx-5. obviously they did not want this to happen so their effort was to make it tricky to find the driver. ymmv on this. the qx-5 is still a better dac than the codex no doubt but really only worth it if you require a digital media center/preamp. go try these drivers! uninstall yours first. reboot. if upon it says to unplug your dac please do so. it also upsets me ayre with this expensive gear were to cheap to buy the newest streamlength drivers. that is shameful honestly. the new one works splendid for me. the seperation and soundstage, prat all just tripled. this is obviously why they did not want people to find it. it is the same driver but the install methods are rewritten for higher efficiency. it is sad though that the $9,000 qx-5 is running on a 5 year old driver.
> 
> ...


 
  
 You need to identify specifically what drivers you are referring to before making claims like this. Also, what makes you think using this driver "closes the gap" between Codex and QX-5? Wouldn't the use of these drivers on QX-5 also improve its performance?
 Further, what you are describing regarding the placement of the drivers on the Ayre web site is not accurate as of today. First of all, the driver presently being offered under the Computer Audio section of the website is the same that has been on offer for years. It does not appear to be specific to QX-5. It is not even a Windows 10 driver. It dates all the back to Windows 8. That is version 1.26 of Streamlength. I have been using it for quite some time. It is also the same version Wavelength offers on their site. It is Gordon Rankin's driver. Further what you are suggesting is nonsensical because you _need_ the driver to run Codex in USB 2.0 mode, I believe, and run at bitrates higher than 96KHz. The way the site is set up now, I agree the driver is not readily accessible from the Codex page, which is a problem because it makes getting USB 2.0 support working at all harder than it should be for Codex users, but this is not a sufficient basis from which one can infer this was done to "cover up" some kind of mistake on the part of Ayre or to prevent Codex users from accessing the driver. Very frankly, I think you are spreading disinformation. Further, unless you have demo'd this unit you are not in position to dismiss the new word clock from Morion as some kind of gimmick. I am calling flame bait on your post and suggest it be dismissed as such. You are entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts. 
  
 I would say the Ayre site is in a state of disrepair at worst.


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## music_man

apparently ayre saw this. as of right now, computer audio is on the bottom of the front page. i do swear the driver under the qx5 page made a sonic difference in the codex. could be placebo i admit. i will have to disassemble the drivers to see if they are the same. they did take it off the codex page which is a fact.
  
 call it flame. i am just saying i would personally recommend the qx-5 if you need a preamp and music hub. yes, it is still better. i said closes the gap. i did not say as good. again, could be placebo. not sure yet. i would recommend the codex if you just need a dac. unless it is a very high end system than i would still get the qx-5 regardless. nonetheless i am fine with the codex in an otherwise six figure system. all i am going to say is i did not feel the qx-5 was as good as the diamond dac v. of course that is not entirely fair because the diamond dac v is 8x the price of the codex with the power base. look, there is always better., you can not dispute that. it depends what one has to spend and what they will spend pretty much.
  
 the qx-5 is very competent and indeed better than the codex. i never said the codex was better. i said i thought it improved with this driver i know nothing about. i swear it did but again could be placebo. for the record i have heard the qx-5 twenty side by side with the codex. there is no doubt it is better. that is not what i said. flame me if you wish. as you said these are solely my opinions. ymmv. i think that is fair. i never said my thoughts are factual or written in stone. just my personal observations. give me a break please it is just my personal feeling. you are most certainly entitled to your own. again, i never said the codex is under any circumstances as good or better than the qx-5 twenty. I thought snagging the drivers put it closer but i could be entirely wrong as i do not currently have the qx-5 here. i am trying to be honest. i am not just being a jerk here. people should know me better than that around here.


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## bmichels

At CanJam, I Liked a lot the AYRE QB-9 driving a BHSE electrostatic headphone Amp + Stax SR009. 

Now that I owe myself a BHSE + Stax SR009 I need a new DAC. 

but.... Since the Stax SR009 can sometime be on the bright side, I need to be sure that the DAC Is NOT bright ! In fact I look for a DAC with a signature close to the QB-9, but just... better. 

So my question is: is the QX-5´s sound signature In the QB-9 style (but better) or totaly different ? 

--> Is the QX-5 warmer or brighter than the QB-9 ? Warmer or brighter than the DAVE ? 

Thanks In advance for your advice for a very good DAC for my BHSE/SR009.


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## music_man

I just wanted to mention the 9038pro is the same thing as the 9018 with better noise specs. you really do not need a snr of 140. 120+ is plenty good. we like turntables and no turntable/preamp has even close to 120. they seem to have very nice crystal oscillators. they do not state what the jitter is. in fact they do not state most of the key specs just the features. they brag about the 9038pro. usually when a company is doing that it is because they are trying to detract attention from other things. you would think they would have bragged about ess on the codex not the qx-5 but no mention. 
  
 don't get me wrong they both sound good, with the qx-5 sounding better. i am just growing not to like ayre as a company. probably why i had never heard of them before. that is just personal though. furthermore the qx-5 is physically to large for my application. these are just personal isues and should have no bearing on anyone else's choice. i am going to look elsewhere now.
  
 furthermore, really great dacs do not use ess,akm or any off the shelf chips. they use proprietary "pics" or the likes. or r2r but does not do dsd of course. interestingly the directstream uses a custom chip and upsamples everything to dsd 10x then back to pcm. due to that conversion going on i found the codex better at 44.1khz. the qx-5 is obviously better as well.
  
 nothing wrong with the qx-5. just my personal issues. just not the right product for me. it does sound very good however, i wil give that. it is indeed better than the codex. i just do not want to see an ess chip in a $9000 dac but again, just personal feeling.
  
 even though the manhattan 2 has the same ess chip i am going to listen to it. it is a lot less money and smaller physically.
  
 i also wonder if they went to the trouble to improve the ess chip it is still at 2x dsd. anyways, soon we will be discussing a new and better dac. even from ayre. dacs rapidly progress. that is why i prefer one with a programmable "pic" for the engine.
  
 one other thing. apparently you can use none of these dacs at 32 bit in windows as it is limited to 24 bit. 32 bit would reduce noise more than going above 120+ snr. nonetheless the noise floor is already nill at 120+ snr.
  
 i stated the qx-5 may use the headphone amp on the ess chip. to be honest i do not know the answer to that. since, once again ayre is very lacking at providing specs. which i find interesting. reminds me of transparent cable voodoo. for people that know what they are hearing but are not interested in specs. we here tend to be interested in specs. if you ask ayre their reply is that they do not release that information. also very strange that there are no pictures of the inside of a codex or qx-5 on the internet. almost every other dac has pictures of the guts readily available.
  
 i am stressing that these are personally views. i will not defend them. feel free to have different feelings regarding these matters. i am entitled to my opinion. i do not think i have provided any misinformation. if i have i apologize. i am certainly not forcing my opinions on anyone. you are all welcome to do as you please. this is a public forum and i simply voiced my opinions. i certainly did mean to misrepresent anything. i have heard it. just not my cup of tea. just like many people have different opinions about the same gear in other areas. i do not stand to say that it does not sound very good. it in fact does. i just like to know more about what i am geting for $9,000. therein lies my motive. so i hope i have been transparent as to why i feel the way i do. everyone is perfectly welcome to feel as they please. please do not let my personal feelings sway you in any direction. i am solely voicing my own opinions.
  
 i am looking for a better dac than the codex currently but it must be very physically small and as you can guess it will not be from ayre. of course the qx-5 does not fit the bill anyways due to size and unneeded features. not at all to say the codex is a bad dac. just looking to upgrade. not sure what the options are in such a small form factor either. the qb-9 dsd is okay but quite frankly i find the codex as least as good. so that would really be a parallel move, not an outright upgrade. yes, it is from ayre as well but i do not have a vendetta against them. it is just that the qx-5 does not suit my needs. i did admit it sounds very good. on that note i am extremely happy with the ax-5 twenty. the codex as well. i am just looking to upgrade it now. that is all. in fact i may look into modding it at this point. as many of you may know i modded successfully a teac ud-501 into a serious contender. so there may be potential right under my nose. i will start by opening it and look what i see could be improved. i do not feel the need for the 9038 as the 9018 is plenty competent. so that will probably stay put.
  
 sorry for rant but if you take anything home from this it should be that i mean no ill intent and certainly not trolling. just voicing my opinion which i should be entitled to. if not i suppose the mods will just remove this. i don't think i have done anything wrong to state my feelings on a matter.


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## BlackstoneJD

music_man said:


> apparently ayre saw this. as of right now, computer audio is on the bottom of the front page. i do swear the driver under the qx5 page made a sonic difference in the codex. could be placebo i admit. i will have to disassemble the drivers to see if they are the same. they did take it off the codex page which is a fact.
> 
> call it flame. i am just saying i would personally recommend the qx-5 if you need a preamp and music hub. yes, it is still better. i said closes the gap. i did not say as good. again, could be placebo. not sure yet. i would recommend the codex if you just need a dac. unless it is a very high end system than i would still get the qx-5 regardless. nonetheless i am fine with the codex in an otherwise six figure system. all i am going to say is i did not feel the qx-5 was as good as the diamond dac v. of course that is not entirely fair because the diamond dac v is 8x the price of the codex with the power base. look, there is always better., you can not dispute that. it depends what one has to spend and what they will spend pretty much




It's all good.


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## eddprzz

Im still waiting for ayre to release driver for windows 10 for codex


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## robi20064

music_man,
  
 On the Arye driver part - out of curiosity - I was grabbing both from their site (listed under the Windows section) and from the Streamlenght site as well. The only difference are (both are 1.26 and rather old, dated back to 2013) vendor/device specific strings/IDs for obvious reasons, the rest are intact. I would not want to question your listening experience, but this shall not indicate any performance improvement at all for any of the listed devices.
  
 On the "hunt for a small footprint quality DAC" I'm interested in models what you are considering. Personally having a Zodiac at home - partly due to it's small footprint - and thinking of upgrading once I have a proper contender, both in terms of quality and footprint. Was thinking about the Codex, not so sure anymore.. No personal objections against it, but being more interested in FPGA based solutions (like some of the Chord and Metrum models). If you are demoing anything and feel you want to share your experience with us, please do so here.


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## music_man

I agree with you robi. i would rather have a fpga solution. the codex remains pretty decent though. you are actually correct it is just the 1.26 driver with an ayre device id init. well, so much for that. sorry guys. to be honest though i could not buy a $9,000 dac that only has windows 7 drivers. quite frankly that is shameful. again, my opinion but i bet many share it.
  
 i would like a reference quality dac say not bigger than the benchmark dac1/2.


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## acap13

I think Ayre is one of the best audio company around the world.they knew their stuffs and packed with technologies up their sleeves.besides just looking up at the ESS dac chips, digging up what Ayre could do to improve digital audio.

You could study the Ayre MP Series white paper. Ayre programmed FPGA based on their own on minimum phase filter. I believe this will be an interesting read when one is trying to weigh in and justify their future purchase.


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## music_man

You have to wonder about windows 7 drivers in 2016 then?


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## acap13

I understand bout that.it is quite unfortunate but i think Ayre must be working on it by now and will have the update later if not soon. I think.


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## BlackstoneJD

I don't understand the apprehension regarding drivers. The Streamlength driver works perfectly with Windows 10. I even game with it. The install process requires compatability mode but honestly I think Windows 10 has so much backwards compatibility it is a non issue. A new driver could very well be more problematic. New drivers are not always better.

I do hard core PC gaming and Streamlength is rock solid.


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## music_man

i get what you guys are saying. i just feel those purchasing a $9,000 dac(qx-5 twenty) for computer audio should not have to install in compatibility. true it makes no difference. the new drivers should have no affect on performance. to be honest i just feel it makes them look bad. i certainly hope they do release a new driver. they can design state of the art equipment with antiquated drivers. it just makes no sense to me. the truth is i think they do not want to pay for the driver but that is just a guess. nonetheless you guys are correct. it has no bearing on functionality. i just think it says something about such a high end companies image but that is just my feeling.
  
 for the record the qx-5 twenty is much better than the codex. however i feel the diamond dac v is better than the qx-5. it should be at 8x the price. either the codex or qx-5 are a whole lot of dac for the money respectively. i apologize that i was just in a bad mood a few days ago. either one of these in their respective categories are outstanding solutions. the codex will beart 5 grand dacs imo. the qx-5 could easily be end game. other than dac technology keeps moving forward. i really have nothing bad to say about either of them in the end.
  
 the driver can be flaky just due to ess but not due to the version of the driver. for instance it does not like some usb cables. or requires one to unplug the dac upon install. i have seen better drivers but that is not about the version. it is most likely just ess. a darn fiio has the same issues.
  
 i do take back what i said in a bad mood. these are both fine dacs. with the qx-5 being exceptionally good. at it's price the codex is a huge bargain as well. i am just looking for a reference dac in a tiny box but seems not to exist. to be honest though the codex sounds plenty good in an otherwise very high end system.  i just do not have room for the qx-5 or i would have it right now..


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## music_man

acap13, the mp white paper would lead one to believe that the codex does in fact incorporate the fpga based filter. it says "all our current digital products incorporate these filters". unless the filter is not on an fpga. if you or anyone else can, please explain this. it incorporates the custom filters but they are not on a programmable fpga? it would be much more expensive to make the filter chip on a non programmable device. so does the codex use a fpga or not? if, not how do they achieve the filter? unless the codex is excluded from all current products. the qx-5 certainly has the filter on a fpga i can see. just wondering what other way they would incorporate the filter if it exists in the codex. as any other way would actually add much more cost. i do not understand this. it obviously has a filter i know that. perhaps not ayre's custom filter. which in that case regarding the mp white paper would be misleading.
  
 i do like dacs that let one select filters. not the one the designer thinks is best. in that regard the teac ud-501/503 is also a great bargain but not quite at the level of the codex regardless.
  
 i would just like to know how they have implemented the filter on the codex. perhaps it is not the mp style filter but an off the shelf chip or ess built in filter. listening to it i would doubt that but i do not know. again, it would be misleading to say "all our current digital products". someone can hopefully explain this.
  
 also is the clock being used on the ess chip or is it ayre's design?
  
 edit: i see per the mp white paper that the qb-9 had this technology. many including myself feel the codex sounds better than the qb-9. so i have no idea how they implemented the filter and clock. obviously they must have used some method to reduce cost i would imagine. given the units price. what they have done i have no idea. i do remember some mention of an outboard crystal oscillator but have no idea what type of chip is holding the filter. unless again, this does not apply to the codex. as that was written before the codex. nonetheless i feel they somehow got it to sound better than the qb-9. as do many other individuals. hopefully someone can explain these two chips that lurk with in the codex.


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## ToddRaymond

music_man said:


> the *truth* is i think they do not want to pay for the driver but that is just *a guess*.




Hmm.


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## acap13

music_man said:


> acap13, the mp white paper would lead one to believe that the codex does in fact incorporate the fpga based filter. it says "all our current digital products incorporate these filters". unless the filter is not on an fpga. if you or anyone else can, please explain this. it incorporates the custom filters but they are not on a programmable fpga? it would be much more expensive to make the filter chip on a non programmable device. so does the codex use a fpga or not? if, not how do they achieve the filter? unless the codex is excluded from all current products. the qx-5 certainly has the filter on a fpga i can see. just wondering what other way they would incorporate the filter if it exists in the codex. as any other way would actually add much more cost. i do not understand this. it obviously has a filter i know that. perhaps not ayre's custom filter. which in that case regarding the mp white paper would be misleading.
> 
> i do like dacs that let one select filters. not the one the designer thinks is best. in that regard the teac ud-501/503 is also a great bargain but not quite at the level of the codex regardless.
> 
> ...




Great question though i cant really say am an expert on this.But before this, i have discussed with my brother about Pono player which the internal circuit was designed by Ayre team.they implemented ess9018k2m with minimum phase filter which i believe they repogramme them on the off the shelf dac used(i'm not really sure though) and supposedly to be the same with Codex except for more sophisticated headphone stage and others.

Different to Ayre's higher end which has 2 selections of filters 'measure' and 'listen' which 'measure' has the FPGA custom from Ayre. I surfed the Ayre website and compared Codex to QX-5 which stated Ayre minimum phase filter(with FPGA) on QX-5 and minimum phase filter only(as in Pono player) on Codex. On the other side,based on the white paper,FPGA was done outside of the DAC chip. I once saw the QB-9 DSD circuit and it was Xillinx Spartan chip as used in all Chord Dacs.so i guess this is answer of how they managed to implement FPGA as their custom filter.


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## music_man

how could they reprogram the ess chip? afaik that chip is not programable? i think they must have some outboard chip even if it is not an fpga. maybe it is just an eprom.


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## music_man

edit: i was wrong. the ess9018k2m does indeed have a programmable filter space. it is locked as the only filter on the codex which is their minimum phase. same as qx-5. it is not on an fpga but it is there which is all that matters to me. the clock is in fact an outboard chip. since the ess9018k2m does not run asynchronous. it is one crystal vs. two in the qx-5 and not from moran. less quality than the qx-5 but it is there. plus their entire host of innovative features. starting with the fully balanced zero feedback architecture. it beats most $5,000 dacs and comes pretty close to the dave but that is not surprising as i mentioned dave is very overpriced. it beats the directstream as i had stated. others agree. just read through head-fi. so, i am unlikely to find a better dac that is marginally larger. i guess i can rest assured that it will just have to do. it took hours to figure out this information but perhaps i am just stupid or inept at using google. so that's that. looks like the codex is staying put. with very good cables and associated equipment it sounds extremely good. i have no faults there. i figured i could get better and i could. for starters the qx-5. the only issue is i do not have room for it. so this shall suffice. not that is a slouch by any means. the prat,soundstage,placement,shimmer everything.... it is all there. better? sure but not in this size box. quite frankly i do not know how they did this. 
  
 also, if i am looking at $9,000+++ dacs I do not want one with an off the shelf chip regardless of how it sounds. if i were ayre i would not have the big ess logo there. yes, it sounds amazing but you can do even better with in house production. hence the diamond dac v or vivaldi for instance. of course those are much more money than the qx-5 but $9,000 is not cheap either. the codex remains a great value. easily beating many $5,000+ dacs. I know i have done my share of bashing the qx-5 but do not need a $15 chip in a $9,000 dac regardless of how it sounds. plus justifying that i have no room for it but anyways for that sound quality i would be looking elsewhere personally. i do have the diamond dac v downstairs in the dedicated listening room. you can put the whole thing on an fpga at that price point as far as i am concerned. i do not want closed ended at this price. i do not state that the qx-5 does not sound good. contrary. it sounds great. so if that is what anyone wants i see no reason not to get one besides my personal hangups. ie, the entire dac on an fpga. meanwhile the codex is a serious contender since it can hang with $5,000+ dacs in many cases putting it pretty high up there. not one of the best dacs in the world but neither is the qx-5 imo. if you need the features great. otherwise the codex is a much bigger bargain.


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## acap13

I know $9000 isnt by any mean cheap for a dac. but assuming qx-5 is a DAC duty only is not true.even Ayre doesnt market them as so. It is actually a digital hub with i.e Dacs,pre out,headphone stage(including balanced). Unless it is only a dac without volume knob,i would just care-less. The only dac(without volume knob and headphone stage) Ayre manufactured is qb-9dsd for about $3500.


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## acap13

Almost everything are in house designed by Ayre(MP filter,ayrelink,zero feedback , discrete componenet, etc.) except for Dac chips(but who cares right) when the implementation does matter overall.


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## music_man

for that money I would rather see programmable for future upgrades. that's the only reason. otherwise the 9038pro is one heck of a good chip.
  
 I also agree the qx-5 is a digital hub/preamp dac. Actually a good value quite frankly. I just need a dac and it must be very compact. I could fit dave sideways but honestly it is not so incredible for the price. the qx-5 is much better. this is not just me being a troll. many people feel dave can be beat by a lot of 2 grand dacs. the codex sounds different but not worse i would say. please let's not argue that though because plenty of people agree. if one of you does not you are certainly entitled to your opinion. so the qx-5 i would not be using half the features and it is too big physically for my shelf but i do admit it sounds awesome. it loks like the codex is the best there is in that form factor. i really do like it but better would always be welcome. just can't fit it.
  
 edit you know what? i am not entirely sure there is a field programmable filter slot on the 9018. it can be loaded at the factory. as i said i would guess ayre did not order enough to get this service. so comes to mind they may be using a sharc dsp chip to store the filter, ayre lock and other goodies. that would make sense as that chip is very cheap. many $1,000 dacs use this approach. some offer selectable filters via a front oled screen. however none are probably better than ayres filter so they require but one. their clock is obviously a seperate chip but without getting to fancy that is also very cheap. unless they have programmed that on the sharc(if that is what they are using) as well. most likely that is it. think of it as a baby fpga. only baby in the regard it does not have nearly as much memory or processing power. it would not be needed in this application though as there is a 9018 present. in fact with the 9038 present i do not see why they would ned a fpga either. a fpga is to custom program the entire dac. many good dacs use off the shelf converters though and so does the qx-5. the sq lies not solely in the dac chip of course. i am just trying to guess what is in this without opening it.
 anyways it sounds plenty good as i have said to my ears beating some $7,000 dacs. which some indecently are entirely fpga based. hugo,dave,direcstream. somehow they did it right at a good price to boot.


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## alpha421

Does anybody know if there's a external HDD stand/base that fits the thickness of the Codex?  If not, I'm thinking of 3D printing one, but not sure if it'll withstand the heat this little guy gives off.


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## music_man

the wd mybook? i am not sure about the heat though but codex on top maybe okay since heat rises.
  
 so this is it. the codex is beating much more expensive dacs.even ones with full fpga. sure the qx-5 is better but i cannot fit it and will not use most of the features. to sound like a broken record. the point is if the codex can hang with things like directstream and dave quite frankly it is in good enough company. the qx-5 is much more than just a dac too. i am happy with it. i figured better was in store but until there is a better one in this form factor this is it for me. done. I also compared it to the mytek Manhattan v1 and feel the codex is still better. ayre really pulled it off.
  
 i do apologize that i rambled on so much in this thread. if you own or are looking to buy a codex it is in fact a world class component. one thing i can tell you for sure is you will be hard pressed to do better under $6,000usd.


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## BlackstoneJD

Denial! You know you want a QX-5 Twenty Music Man. Stop trying to convince yourself otherwise. Get the dremel out and carve out some room! lol


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## cygnusx

Does the QX-5 come with a remote? Hang it down from the ceiling


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## music_man

yeah, no kidding guys,,,,,,


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## music_man

The price is alright. besides the fitment. I kind of wannted fpga for the high end dac. however ayre certainly does the ess right. so i don't know. obviously it is not the ess but the better electronics in the ax-5. you guys are right though i want the darn thing but nowhere reasonable to put it. to be honest though as i said and others agree..... the dave is a high end fpga dac and i would consider the codex it's peer. perhaps mytek manhattan ii in a smaller case has the 9038pro. doubt it is the ayre sound though. ayre is like a mechanic that tunes 50 more horsepower out of an engine with just a wrench. i am really stuch with the codex it looks like. no worries though it is a serious machine.
  
 i was trying to figure out where their clock,filter and other goodies. i am now reasonably sure they are using something like a sharc. which is sort of a mini fpga but not for the decoder itself. neither does the ax5, as you all know it has the 9038 pro. however on the ax-5 i think the other stuff is stored on an fpga but again not a custom decoder. does not matter because just goes to show about dave. 16 grand and it has trouble beating 2 grand dacs. this has ben said by many others. so fpga is not everything. let ess build them because that is their forte. apparently many that attempt to program an fpga, it is not.
  
 yes, i want the ax-5. i have no room for it. not sure what is that good in a box say 10"x14"x4" maximum. any ideas? of course i just need a plain dac. meanwhile the codex is no slouch at all. until the ax-5 came out my salesman thought it was the best dac period.


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## music_man

i think i figured this out. for the codex there is one programmable curve location so that is where ayre's is. the clock must be ess own regulator. however i do remember some mention of a crystal but not the double moran in the qx-5 of course. anyways, the codex sounds very good. hitting way higher than it's belt. beating some $7,000+ dacs. it will have to do for me. i just want to kick myself that my limitation is just space. i cannot block the speakers obviously. i am sorry i have made such a big deal out of this in public.
  
  
 edit: well, screw it i got the qx-5 twenty. i put it up high on a shelf mounted to the wall. not ideal but at least i have it. the sound is sublime. it is better than the codex obviously. i stil maintain it is not quite as good as the diamond dac v but close.
  
 another musing. ayre says correctly that the dac chip has little to do with a dacs sound it is the output circutry. therefore you would think the qb-9 dsd sounds much better than the codex. many people including myself fell the codex sounds better or equal at the least. i am really not sure what all is in the codex but it is certainly good. you do not need a lot of space to make a good dac. if you look at the inside of the dave it is a pretty small pcb. biggest part is the clock modual. the dcs stuff takes up much more real estate since each section is modular and in it's own case within the outer case. many other dacs are not very large but the codex has got to be the smallest one that is very good. i supose i will get around to opening it since there are no pictures on the internet which i find very odd. maybe too new since there are also no pictures of the innards of the qx-5 twenty but plenty of pics of the qb-9/dsd.
  
 anyways the qx-5 twenty is obviously better than the codex and i am listening to it now but it needs a lot more break in.
  
 the codex has issues with usb. probably the driver. if you turn off power to it as in a power loss you must unplug  the power and usb cables and reconnect. it also will sometimes lose signal plus the pops and clicks. i gather ayre did not really care about this product. being way below their average price point. it is a glorified pono imo. glad i have the qx-5 twenty which is what i expect from them. even though same drivers, no issues yet.


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## austinpop

Hey guys -
  
 Have any of you tried the Sbooster Vbus2 or equivalent to suppress the 5V Vbus line to the Codex? It's supposed to add another layer of isolation for self-powered DACs.
  
 I thought I read here that the Codex does not need the 5V input on the USB, but when I tried the Vbus2 in my setup, the Ayre was not recognized by the streamer upstream (Aries Mini).
  
 So my guess is the Codex needs that 5V after all.


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## austinpop

austinpop said:


> Hey guys -
> 
> Have any of you tried the Sbooster Vbus2 or equivalent to suppress the 5V Vbus line to the Codex? It's supposed to add another layer of isolation for self-powered DACs.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Well, this is very interesting, and somewhat surprising to me. Alex conveyed the following, direct from the developers (this is paraphrased):

The Codex, unlike the QB9, does not self-power the USB side of the device. The Codex USB section is bus powered, so it will always draw current, which will be slightly sample rate dependent.
The max current draw they've measured is about 300mA.


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## music_man

so it is not isolated. Lies from ayre originally and thing is just a total waste of money imo.It sounds good for it's price but it is finicky and has issues. i do not think ayre really cares about it as it is just their cheapio way to get more sales from a different market segment. i would really not be surprised if they are jobbing this out to china. don't doubt it until you have proof otherwise. quite frankly the qx-5 twenty sucks too at it's price point. i am done with ayre. just very overpriced stuff. that is my opinion. i am not flaming or trolling just my personal feeling. i think there is much better than ayre and even for less money. People should not have had problems with this thing and originally alex said it was not bus powered. i do not trust the company and not keen on any of their products. have also sold the ax-5 twenty. price is a joke for that output level. i am done with them but if anyone else loves them that is great. we are all entitled to our own opinions. personally, they put a bad taste in my mouth. just way overpriced imo.


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## MLGrado

music_man said:


> so it is not isolated. Lies from ayre originally and thing is just a total waste of money imo.It sounds good for it's price but it is finicky and has issues. i do not think ayre really cares about it as it is just their cheapio way to get more sales from a different market segment. i would really not be surprised if they are jobbing this out to china. don't doubt it until you have proof otherwise. quite frankly the qx-5 twenty sucks too at it's price point. i am done with ayre. just very overpriced stuff. that is my opinion. i am not flaming or trolling just my personal feeling. i think there is much better than ayre and even for less money. People should not have had problems with this thing and originally alex said it was not bus powered. i do not trust the company and not keen on any of their products. have also sold the ax-5 twenty. price is a joke for that output level. i am done with them but if anyone else loves them that is great. we are all entitled to our own opinions. personally, they put a bad taste in my mouth. just way overpriced imo.


 
  
 It is a funny thing how our emotions affect what we 'hear'.  
  
 Were you not earlier spewing accolades over how great the Codex sounds, and how it sounds way better than its price point? Better than DAC's costing upwards of 7 grand?  And now it and the other Ayre products are all over-priced crap?  
  
 I am confused here....


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## austinpop

Um yeah - I don't know what set him off, but it certainly wasn't my intent. I was not complaining at all.
  
 In fact, I wanted to convey some info that perhaps people were not aware of. I happen to love the sound of the Codex, and am frankly surprised they can achieve it with a bus-powered DAC section!
  
 It is also relevant in the context of some USB tweaking I'm doing, using Intona and W4S Recovery for isolation and reclocking. This fact about the Codex suggests another potential tweak, i.e. to feed a clean 5V from an external LPS using a split USB cable.
  
 I will be playing with that and report back.


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## music_man

I am just mad at the company to be honest. first of all the codex has some hardware issues that I do not think they care to address. beyond that they say one thing and later another. furthermore they like to avoid specs entirely claiming the "sound speaks for itself". that's great but it is nice to knoe what all exactly you are paying that much for. if they can make it sound great with $5 of components than they should sell it for $100. i do not dispute the sound. their corporate methodology has just really upset me. i am sorry i was so harsh i was just really upset. look, we all have bad days. i will remain with my feling that every piece of theirs sounds darn jolly. i am just upset with them on a personal level for not being forthright. they in essence are correct that all that matters is the sound but it makes me feel like they have something to hide. how they got the qx-5 twenty to sound like that with a 9038pro is beyond me. it sounds better than most r2r dacs but that does not dispell my now unfortunate distrust of them. yes, it is very unfortunate i do not trust them right now because it all in fact sounds extremely good. i do feel if you look very carefully you can get competing components for a little less money but it is just like grado. if you like the sound best there is nothing else. i do apologize that i went off on them. i should not have done that in public. i just got so fed up with them evading or reinventing their specs at every turn. again, it is just about specs not the sound! i most certainly do not dispute the sound. i got mad and in the heat of the moment i flew off the deep end. rest assured what i said about all their components remains true. they all sound great. really great. i guess in essence i got mad for no reason. they are sort of right that it is the sound that matters. it just made mad that they cannot get their facts straight. alex had told me it absolutely does not use bus power but i new long ago it did. then finally he provides the correct information. that was the final straw for me. it has nothing to do with the sound. i know i partially attacked the sound above but that on my part is not true. i was just furious. maybe for no real good reason. not sure. i just prefer companies that release specs. regardless of how it sounds. i do apologize that i went so far with my distaste however. i hope you guy's will give me a break for a bad day. the truth is i have not yet sold any of it but i am strongly thinking of doing so. i am being honest.i was not really at first. i was just very upset at that moment. i am sorry.
  
  
 oh, btw i was using a split linear powered high end usb supply all the time because i already knew this.


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## music_man

on a more positive note. i had asked a number of people to score the qb- dsd,codex and qx-5 twenty from 1-100 solely as dacs. no dbt because i feel the mind is what allowes us to hear what we do.
 16 people participated. the codex scored 7% better than the qb-9 dsd. the qx-5 twenty scored 21% better than the codex. if the qx-5 twenty was, say $3,000 that would be a worthy upgrade as a dac. it of course is much more than a dac but was measured solely as a dac. if one only wants a dac the codex appears to be the best value.I think honestly i will look into the mytek manhattan 2. it uses a 9038 pro and is very nice. since i only want a dac i really do not need to pay much more for features i do not use. i think the mytek might make it since the qx-5 is not a huge margin over the codex as a dac. it is certainly a better dac but not by leaps and bounds. the previous reviewer using terms such as "bonkers" does not mean anything to me but no offense to him. we all hear differently. of course some scored lower and higher but those are the averages. the codex is a great value. i do maintain it beat certain $5000+ dacs. I was just mad at ayre not their product and maybe it was unfounded. i did apologize for getting upset about specs and i still do apologize. it remains a terrific dac, even in a uber high end system.


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## BlackstoneJD

You are entitled to your opinion. No need to apologize. For that kind of money you should just love it. It is all subjective. A wise man once told me, if you can't hear the difference between two units get the cheaper one. There are days when it all seems like nonsense. Codex is positioned pretty well. I would have bought it but I wanted a remote control. I needed the inputs. End of story. 

I always get all theoretical on forums. It should do this, and it should do that. But then my ears tell me something different. You have to trust your ears.

I heard the $55,000 Sennheiser HE-1 yesterday. It was probably about as good as headphones are going to get, but still, it is not a holy grail or anything.


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## cygnusx

I completely understand Music_man's pain and using the codex has really been a love hate relationship for me as well. At this point, I'm at peace and accepted its flaws. At the end of the day, I'm not going to find a DAC this good at this price point. I do agree that the codex does seem like something Ayre slap together with no real support. That's too bad since there is a real opportunity for Ayre to do well in the HP amp/dac market.


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## music_man

I am glad you guys understand. i figured i was way off base here. it is just my feelings. i am mad at them because of those exact reasons, cygnusx. plus they don't want to supply specs on anything and when they do they often later correct themselves in a disappointing manner. laying on the statement it is how it sounds not the specs. for the big buck pieces i like to know what is in it. odd there are no internal pictures of the codex on the internet that i know of. i do actually think there is competition at nearly 2 grand depending on your own ears. AS you said it is a shame they semingly slapped it together and hardly support it. wrong market for them i guess. that is why i think there is competition in some places for around the same price. can't think of one right now as i am not really keeping up with this. i wonder if they will do another or abandon this. they discontinued the qb-9 dsd so i have no idea what they are thinking.
  
 so you heard the he-1? wow! i wish i could hear it. the thing is though it might be the best headphone but isn't it too expensive? i mean if it was like 15 grand for the best headphone that would be fair imo. if you say it is not a grail that means you could get similar for less i suppose. maybe sr009.
  
 as i said for the small system i might try the mytek manhattan 2. or something else don't know. as you do know codex pops and clicks, loses sync. qx-5 twenty i feel as just a dac is not incredibly beter than the codex. so too much money there.
  
 i am just glad you guys did not get furious with me because i feel i have valid points about it. i am sorry i went nuts about it though.


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## music_man

i figured since i went off maybe i could help some people here. since the device is in fact bus powered you can make a good improvement depending how much noise you have. probably a lot like most pc's. i like ifi's stuff but cannot recommend it due to their often untimely demise. so, what you can do. i will mention everywhere with the best prices on what you will need. there is no assembly it is plug and play. first go to abt and get the aqdioquest jitterbug and dragon tail. this will go into the usb port on your computer. try to use a usb port with nothing else on that controller. then go to cdw and get a startech usb hub with a type-a usb input. now go to music direct and get a .75 or 1.5 meter cardas clear usb cable. this will go from the jitter bug to the startech hubs input. now you will need a linear power supply to power the startech hub. either go to mouser and get one or better find an old radioshack regulated universal psu. if you do that set it at 4.5 volts. do not use any of the other ports on the hub. you will need to get a psu with the right size plug for the hub or correct adaptaplug if you go with the radioshack. now go back to musicdirect and depending on the sound signature of your system either get a cardas clear usb cable or an audioquest carbon in the length you need to reach your dac from the hub. i would try to suspend the hub so it is not on the ground or a table. otherwise put it on a cork drink coaster from walmart or a piece of foam rubber. plug the psu directly into a good surge strip or ups. i recommend an isobar from tripp lite. depending on how much noise you have this should make a subtle to a large improvement. The downside is depending on how long cables you need this is going to cost between $300 and $650. similar to what it would cost using the ifi equivalent but much less likely to quit working. if you have a lot of noise which you probably do this dac is in fact eating it and is is badly affecting your sound. so this should be a worthwhile investment. it is bs that they said originally that it was non bus powered. in that case you could forgo this additional investment.i would also put the codex on it's side and use the vibration isolation blocks i mentioned elsewhere available at lowes. however if you are not using balanced headphones or balanced outs in the rear you are not getting nearly what the codex is capable of anyways. if you are strictly using se this is not really worth the investment. with these improvements the codex easily beats many dacs costing 4-5X it's price but not all of them. of course also use good audio or headphone cables of your choosing.  i am just fed up with ayre as a company. it remains with these improvements the codex punches well above it's price point. it still has quirks and they do not care. if you are stuck with it and have yet to take these steps it will probably be very worthwhile to you. the thing is now it is not $1,700 it is at least $2,000. still, you will be hard pressed to get anything anywhere near this price that performs as it does.
  
 as for the qx-5 twenty to me it is too much money in retrospect because i use almost none of the additional features and simply use it as a dac. as i said it is better than the codex as a dac but not tremendously. you are mainly looking at a newer better chip. that is why i am considering the mytek manhattan 2. i will see how it stacks up to the qx-5 just as a dac. there of course will be other nice offerings with the 9038pro. if you cannot get out of the codex than these improvements may be worthwhile to you. i think with these improvements implemented it greatly closes the gap in sq between the codex and qx-5. not entirely though but solely as a dac i think there will be comparable offerings for less money. a big part of the ayre sound is their curve if you are keeping the codex for whatevewr reason, with these improvements it is still considered by myself to be at the higher end of the range of dacs. without all this it is of course still very good. you can most likely improve it quite a bit though. even with the quirks and lack of support it remains a top contender at it's price. even exceeding much more expensive offerings. i think you will also find there are less issues with ramped up usb power. so that is another plus of doing this. no, we should not have to do this and it is optional but unfortunately dacs like this tend to benefit from it a lot. plus it may well fix some of the issues. this just goes to more reason that i am mad at ayre as a company. they make good products but i am unhappy with their "policies". that is all.
  
 i do wonder if they will abandon this, continue it's development or offer a different product. now that they have discontinued the qb-9. time will tell. i do find the codex to sound a little better than the qb-9 as is. that happens with the evolution of the chipset. thus greatly in part why the qx-5 is better imo. i do not really think it is their other "magic" and there is not a huge gap between them as dacs. there is most certainly some gap though. which i mostly attribute to the 9038pro which others may disagree on. with the qx-5 you are paying for much more than simply a dac. it is a network streaming device among other things. i just want a dac and feel i can obtain one for less money. not to mention i am just fed up with ayre on a personal level. for one thing as with the codex the qx-5 uses the same vastly outdated drivers. i just feel as if they don't really care. that is just my opinion though everyone else is certainly entitled to their own.
  
 well, i hope i at least helped someone here with the suggested improvements.


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## mink70

deleted


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## yage

I think that Ayre will make a DAC only product at a lower price point eventually. The problem is that there's a huge price gap between the QX-5 and the Codex. I bet there are a lot of audiophiles in your situation (myself included) who don't particularly care for the streaming and headphone amp features. I know that Mr. Hansen was thinking of making a two box product (DAC + transport) initially.

On another note, I've listened to the Mytek Brooklyn at the CAF and did not find the sound that compelling. If that experience is indicative of the Mytek house sound, you might find the new Manhattan similarly lackluster. I currently have a DAC (Cayin iDAC-6) as part of a review tour that sounds remarkably close to my C-5xeMP, as far as initial impressions go. It lacks a smidge of clarity and imaging isn't as precise, but it nails instrumental and vocal timbres like an Ayre component. It might suit your bedroom system well as it's smaller than the QX-5, but it does throw off quite a bit of heat as it has a tube buffer output stage.


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## austinpop

Look guys, nothing's changed vis-a-vis the SQ of the Codex. Yes, it is not perfect.
  
 But - if you liked it so much a month ago, it's not like something significantly better has come along at this price point to displace it. You mentioned the Brooklyn, which is very interesting to hear. I have auditioned the Simaudio 230HAD, the Questyle CMA-600i, and the Sennheiser HDVD-800. None could beat out the Codex.
  
 For me, the way I look at, the Codex's limitations have to be weighed in context:

I've upgraded to a Cavalli Liquid Gold amp, so at this point, the amp in the Codex is redundant to me. Sure - I would love a DAC-only Ayre product at $2k,  but until that happens, I'm happy with the Codex.
I was surprised to learn the DAC section was bus-powered. Frankly, I'm even more impressed now that a bus-powered DAC can sound this good. But now I see it as an opportunity to improve the sound using a good LPS to power the USB. Hopefully, it'll make a great DAC sound even better.
Yes, I don't like the ticks and pops at track boundaries and sample rate changes. But I have workarounds, and it's just not a show stopper for me.
  
 So - a little perspective, is all I ask!


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## music_man

I was just mad. it was me. i should not have lashed out like that. the codex sounds outstanding for it's price. that does remain true. i was just mad with ayre on a personal level but not their products per se. i don't like some of their methodology but that does not really change the product any. it remains that the codex sounds very good and the qx-5 twenty sounds a good deal better still. i guess there stance on audio in general confuses me but they do know how to make good sounding products. they should make just a small dac for say $3k that is simply an outstanding dac. perhaps they will with the now absent qb-9 dsd. i am not mad anymore. i guess what set me off was the bus power because alex had told me it was not bus powered. that does not really even matter because it still sounds good. if you isolate the power to it it will sound even better. closing the gap to the qx-5 twenty. although it will never make it quite there with a 9018. plus the qx-5 twenty has a better output section. it is kind of a waste for me i did not touch those features on it once yet. not even headphones. i am just using the qx-5 twenty as a dac and it is haphazardly placed here. the sound cannot be disputed however. i wonder if the qx-5 twenty is bus powered but i do not think we ever get a straight story from ayre. that is what set me off but i sincerely apologize. i was just mad about communication with them not any of their products. i did bash the products because i flew off the rocker but that was completely unfounded on my part.
  
 mink70, i imagine you said something nasty to me and quite frankly i deserve it so that is okay if you did.


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## yage

It's easy to tell if the QX-5 is bus powered as an earlier poster alluded. Turn the DAC off and unplug it. Keep the USB input connected to the PC. If it still shows up as a connected device then the USB module is drawing power from the computer. The QB-9 disappears from my list of connected peripherals if I pull out the power cord. (There is no power switch.)


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## music_man

yeah. just tried it. it is not. that is crummy they did that with the codex. why i got so mad. it is cheap for ayre but not cheap. i have to pull out the codex and try it but i am sure it is.


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## music_man

the codex is indeed bus powered. did not dissapear but the qx-5 twenty did. they made a lower end piece here. it sounds good and is very small but not sure if there is something better nearly as compact. it is certainly reference quality and a+ rated but the qx-5 twenty is a good deal better. i just don't use any of the features. not sure about mytek either was just a guess. now my windows 10 is missing the audio control applet which is a bit of a problem. may have to reinstall. i bet from unplugging it too. if you just supply the codex with good power bus powered really makes no difference. i would recommend ifi but they have been dying on people. i also noticed on the codex a poor 44.1 source sounds better upsampled to 192,000. dsd sounds worse though. dsd sounds good if the file is dsd of course.


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## bugstone

I came across this positive mention of the Codex in this Stereophile review of the $3995
 T+A Elektroakustik DAC 8 DSD D/A processor.

  
_"I also did some headphone listening while the Codex was still here, and on this count I give a slight edge to the Ayre, but only in balanced mode. (The DAC 8 DSD has only an unbalanced headphone jack.) Soundstage depth was slightly more apparent, but through Audeze's LCD-X headphones with the levels matched and using both DACs unbalanced revealed no clear winner. With headphones, both the Ayre and the T+A bettered the Benchmark DAC2 HGC DAC, which sounded thinner than either."_
  
 http://www.stereophile.com/content/ta-elektroakustik-dac-8-dsd-da-processor-page-2#dq7uAbRq7e3jGiGE.97


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## music_man

It will beat some dacs 4-5x it's price. just depends on which ones. some that are 5-8 grand are obviously better though. I think the guy that auditioned the qx-5 twenty was in awe by the entire system. in a reference system the qx-5 is a good deal better but not by leaps and bounds. for starters 9038pro is better. than better clock, output stages. the codex fares well against all comers though. i just got fed up with the company cannot get their facts straight. in fact they try not to divulge any specs unles really mundane and really pushed about it. for this money i not only like to hear what i have i like to know what i have. they say specs don't matter the sound does. two diferent schools of thought. although for the record that is also grado's stance pretty much. they might not even measure anything they build. i am not sure.


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## yage

music_man said:


> in fact they try not to divulge any specs unles really mundane and really pushed about it. for this money i not only like to hear what i have i like to know what i have. they say specs don't matter the sound does. two diferent schools of thought. although for the record that is also grado's stance pretty much. they might not even measure anything they build. i am not sure.


 
  
 I'm sure that Charles Hansen / Ayre measure their gear. The Stereophile measurements of the Codex and AX-5 (along with numerous other Ayre equipment) bear this out. You can't design a good product without good engineering. It's also true that it's the sound you hear in the end that matters. Any audio company can slap a bunch of specs on their website to show off their supposed technical prowess. Some of them may be genuine and some of them may be fudged a little. Some of them may have no true bearing on sound quality. However, it's the audition - whether at the store or in your home - that really counts.


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## music_man

I completely agree. I am sure Hansen knows the specs. you talk to alex or others there and receive misinformation or simply we don't know and it does not matter. i think they just do not like releasing specs so the tech support do not have that information.
  
 did stereophile measure the qx-5? it would be interesting how it compares to the codex. the specs are already so good on the 9018. they do have the better clock buffer etc. i find the qx-5 certainly better but if one just wants a dac they are paying a lot for unused features. i will wait until hopefully a good $4,000 dac comes out with the 9038 and femto etc. or a fpga. meanwhile for it's size the codex is very hard to beat.easily taking out many $5,000 dacs. The qx-5 has more competition at that price as a dac. cleaning up the usb on the codex will render great results too.


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## music_man

Just heard the mha150. i like the codex better but that is just sound preference. don't really like the mcintosh sound and that thing is all analog like all their flagship stuff. i like the qx-5 twenty quite a bit better too. the mcintosh is warmer the ayre stuff is sharper and more detailed. soundstage was just different. using loudspeakers. the codex packs a big punch given it's price. it still does. i actually can't fault them for getting a good implementation of a bus powered usb receiver now that i think about it. they might have something with it is the sound not the specs.....


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## music_man

ayre does not even know what they are saying but apparently neither do i. when i unplugged it and it did not disappear from task manager i had external power on the cable so windows retained it seeing the voltage present. I now unplugged it straight from the pc. lo and behold it did disappear. i now have no idea if the xmos board is powered or not. if it is, they did an outstanding job of getting it to sound good. most powered usb buses are lacking in sq. it is honestly probably the best dac in the world currently for it's size. move into bigger dacs, sure you can do better. not always though i and others have felt this beat dacs 4-5x the price. it is hard to justify the qx-5 if you solely need a dac but it does sound great. so much for fpga as well. i feel both the codex and qx-5 are nicer than the chord dave. which is amazing considering the price of the codex. of course that is just my opinion. ymmv. It is probably bar none the best compact dac for it's price imo


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## cygnusx

I'm using a balanced headphone and the RCA out to my amp in DAC mode.   Here is my concern, when I do A/B comparison using headphones in balanced and unbalance modes, there is a night and day difference in the sound quality.  In balanced mode, the music is much more resolving at all volumes (especially higher volumes), with better imaging and sound staging across the highs and lows.  Initially, I thought the major difference was just the increase in volume but now, I don't believe that's the case.  Ayre's equipment in general really seem to be designed to be used in balanced system.  Can anybody confirm that in DAC mode, the XLR balanced outs sound noticeably better than the RCA outs like with the headphone outs?   I know the Codex still sounds really good via the RCAs but I'm wondering if there are other DACs in the market, in the same price range, that sounds better in a single-ended system.  With that said,  I have few different options, one I can move away from a single-end amp design and get an amp with balanced circuitry (would like to get AX-5 Twenty for it's out of my budget and AX-7e is not powerful enough for my speakers) or I can look into a getting a different DAC that works better in a single-ended system.   Let me know what you guys think.  Thx


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## music_man

the balanced outs make an enormous difference. that with good usb isolation has this thing killing most 5 grand dacs and even some 10 grand dacs. i absolutely would not use the rca's into an amp if i had a choice. as you said ayre is really aimed towards balanced operation. they said having the rca's plugged in at the same time would kill the sound but not so. that is why i was mad at ayre. they provide a lot of misinformation about their products. tech support does not really have any contact with the engineers i guess. i am certainly not displeased with their products. balanced with usb isolation and vibration isolation into the ax-5 twenty honestly the qx-5 twenty is only about 10% better and it is one of the finest dacs on the market. if you have a headphone amp or speakers i think you will be amazed to switch to balanced as you were with the headphones. if you do not already get good usb isolation. to make this to a cost they used a powered usb board. cleaning that up real good with the balanced outputs will put this into a reference quality category. however proper usb isolation is going to run you $500 with two cables and good balanced cables are going to run you another $500 minimum. it is 100% worth it. Think, you are still doing better than 5 grand and even some 10 grand dacs and have not even spent 3 grand. i guess it all depends if you want to spend that. i certainly would and did. i am actually running $4,000 xlr cables and not only the difference going to balanced but the better cables and then usb isolation transformed this thing into the real deal. of course ymmv. if you just get some mogami xlr cables at guitar center for $50 each i think you will already be amazed at the difference. it lights up balanced if you use the back plugs as well. i knew the rca at the same time had no bearing since balanced was still lit and the other device is killed from the mains. the thing is they are locking rca's so too much stress to keepr emoving those but it is fine. you can use both but not simultaneously. unplug the rca device while using the balanced but fine to have them connected. i would certainly not get another dac if you have the codex. you can look at good integrated amps that are much less than ayre. check out musicdirect nad,cambridge,marantz all fine on a budget. maybe only 50% of the sound of the ax-5 twenty but plenty good for many people. i fully understand many people cannot afford regular ayre gear. at least with the codex the opened up a whole new world and market for themselves. they demoed the ax-5 twenty with it until the qx-5 twenty came out so it is up to par. trust me ayre would hide it if it sucked. it far from sucks. in fact if you do everything i mentioned it is a serious contender within any reasonable price. people can flame me on the qx-5 twenty compariosn but do you have one and do you have the codex setup like i do? it is pretty darn close honestly. that is only if you take these steps. as is it is about 25% away from the qx-5 twenty. it is hard to give sound a percentage but i am guessing ballpark from hours of listening. of course ayre would not like to hear this but i am pissed off at them anyways. as a company not their products. their products are totl. including the codex.


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## cygnusx

I agree with what your saying. There aren't too many integrated amps that have true balance circuitry. Most integrated convert back into single ended once inside the amp. Separates are a completely different beast. I'm really looking for an amp to run in class A. If Ayre had an amp in between the ax5 and ax7, I would be all over it. Any suggestions for a balanced integrated amp in $5k range? Been thinking about selling the Codex and current amp and going with a Vinnie Rossi LIO. Very impressive integrated. I rather find something that works nice with the Codex. Thx


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## music_man

you could honestly spend a lot less. the cambridge audio 851a is outstanding. a bargain like the codex. real balanced. it is a hybrid between class a and ab. so it saves power too. it is class a for most of what you would use. even the ab is more class a. they call it class xd. you can read about it. if you really want to spend 5 grand you can look at moon from sim. i would seriously not sell the codex to run rca's. you will be going way backwards. keep the codex and get an amp you can afford. the cambridge is honestly equal to an ax7 almost. another option is to get a used classe cap-2100. it there seem to be a lot of them for about 2 grand. it was 6 grand new and compared to 15-20 grand amps at the time. it is a tank built in canada. just be sure it is working and it should continue to work for about 10 years at which time it may need need new power caps. they still service it and b&w group is very good. it also depends how good your speakers are. unless you have at least 10 grand speakers you do not need an ax-5. the cambridge is good for speakers up to about $2,500. the classe wil handle any speakers. there are other options. again check music direct. you can call them when you pick a few. they know their stuff.another great option is mid-fi marantz. made in japan. well ones over 2 grand are.i would seriously avoid any digital amps like the nad flagship. mosfets/jfets/bi-polar will walk all over those digital amps. i would just highly recommend against selling the codex. especially to go with rca's. all that is going to happen is you get a much lower quality dac. when you can get plenty of fine integrated amps for 2 grand or less. i would not even look at separates for 5 grand. anything good is more like 8 grand or more. however, again the cambridge. although i am not sure you need 400 watts or whatever those are. i think their integrated is 200 watts. of course that is not equal to the ax-5 at less wattage but it is in fact prety close to the ax-7. don't let that name fool you. the 800 series is pretty nice. although it is made in china. not a big deal though it is very well made. actually has three torroids.  as does the classe. with moon that is 15 grand. ayre does not even offer it because they believe in a different technology. also check out the sony a1es. this if you can spend 2 grand and keep the codex. below that the amps are mostly trash.


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## DoctaCosmos

@music_man, would it be wise to pair the codex with another "zero feedback" amp or would something like a parasound halo series amp be good?


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## DoctaCosmos

@music_man, would it be wise to pair the codex with another "zero feedback" amp or would something like a parasound halo series amp be good?


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## yage

cygnusx said:


> I agree with what your saying. There aren't too many integrated amps that have true balance circuitry. Most integrated convert back into single ended once inside the amp. Separates are a completely different beast. I'm really looking for an amp to run in class A. If Ayre had an amp in between the ax5 and ax7, I would be all over it. Any suggestions for a balanced integrated amp in $5k range? Been thinking about selling the Codex and current amp and going with a Vinnie Rossi LIO. Very impressive integrated. I rather find something that works nice with the Codex. Thx


 
  
 Why not use your Codex as a preamp and partner it with a (used) Ayre power amp? Used V-5xe / VX-5 Twenty's sometimes pop up on Audiogon or US Audio Mart. If you're interested, I know of a demo V-5xe that can be had for half off retail. PM me for details.


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## cygnusx

yage I thought about that but I also need a real preamp for the turntable. I'm pretty sure Ayre is working on an upgrade for the Ayre Ax7e. Something in between the ax-5 twenty and the ax7e. I'm wait for that. Maybe I'll try an output transformer from balance to unbalanced.


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## yage

cygnusx said:


> @yage I thought about that but I also need a real preamp for the turntable. I'm pretty sure Ayre is working on an upgrade for the Ayre Ax7e. Something in between the ax-5 twenty and the ax7e. I'm wait for that. Maybe I'll try an output transformer from balance to unbalanced.


 

 Yeah, Ayre makes an outboard phono preamp - the P-5xe, so the new integrated probably won't include a phono stage. There is a used one for sale now on USAM. My guess is that they're going to make an affordable power amp to pair with the Codex since it can function as a pre - at least with its limited digital inputs.
  
 I've gone the transformer box route as well and bought a Jensen PC-2XR to use between my Sonett 2 and the QB-9 DSD. It wasn't ideal. I think I read somewhere that Charles Hansen thinks the SE out is better than using a transformer to convert balanced to unbalanced. Note - you need a very short pair of unbalanced cables (< 15 in. I believe) to use with the transformer so that capacitance is kept at a minimum.


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## music_man

yeah, se is better than converting but bal is way better than either. especially on ayre stuff it seems they put all the effort into balanced. docta, either really it depends on the amp. the halo's are good but which one? see that is why i would not get the used ax-5. the used classe cap-2100 can have a phono board put in that is very good. you are unlikely to find one with it already but you put it in yourself. it is like a pci card. no big deal. honestly that amp might be better than the ax-5 but watch out they are old. there are a lot of choices for 2 grand depends what you like. not usually going to find zero feedback except used for that price. i have also considered running the codex with usb over ethernet. ethernet cables, even cheap ones are way higher quality than usb cables. as you probably know they make greart ic's,headphone cables and low amperage speaker wire. braid them exotic and they get even better. so i am currently thinking of trying that to see if it is better than providing external usb power. i won't know until i listen but it is not in the works right away. eventually. you have to realize at some point this dac is going to be old news. it will sound great but their wil eventually undoubtedly be better for the same money or less. in fact i change dacs often. the main thing about the codex for me is the size. don't get me wrong. if you clean up the usb and use good quality xlr cables it is reference class sound. in fact a few magazines rated it a+. I do not think stereophile has rated it but my guess with them would be a. with the qx-5 twenty being a+. for the size nothing can touch it. i have not taken it apart but i wonder whart all is stuffed in there. of course many full chassis dacs are just a little 6 inch board inside. i wonder if they will soon put the 9038 pro in it but doubt that. since it would start to step on the qx-5. you will see dacs over 5 grand with a 9018 though. it is funny i thought fpga was always a better way to go until i heard the qx-5 smash the dave for instance. even the codex can compete with dave imo. so it depends who does the fpga. of course that is ymmv as i always say. some people might say how dare i diss poor dave.
  
 anyways obviously 2 grand will go way further used but their are good new choices as well. actually that cambridge is zero feedback of sorts of all things. i really like that for the money. sure, there is way better. for way more money. it is a god value just like the codex is. if you can swallow made in china. not always a bad thing though for instance xindak is top of the line. it is like the chinese ayre.
  
 for the ax-5 twenty though i would also look at the moon 700i. more power pretty nice as well. there are so many choices at every price point all i can ever tell anyone is you must listen for yourself or have a return policy.


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## cygnusx

I may need to sacrifice my kids college fund  but I'm convinced I need to go all Ayre. I've listened to many amps both tubes and SS and I haven't heard anything more resolving and engaging than the combo of a Ayre 20 amp with either with a Codex or QB-9. I think it will be my end all equipment. I also love the Leben CS600, it's a fantastic integrated tube amp. May pick one those in the used market at some point. Not many come out into the used market a testament to the sound it produces. Thanks for all your comments guys.


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## yage

cygnusx said:


> I may need to sacrifice my kids college fund
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I have an AX-5 Twenty in my system and while it was back in Boulder getting the Twenty update, my dealer lent me his demo AX-7e. Let me tell you, that little amp can sing. It didn't throw as big or deep of a soundstage as the AX-5, but it really held its own in terms of dynamics and tone. This was on music and movies. I was very impressed.


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## music_man

i honestly think the codex is great with the ax-5 twenty. using it right now. depends on your speakers. of course some that get the ax-5 twenty may feel the qx-5 twenty is the complimentary component.only if you really need the streaming services but it is somewhat better than the codex. there is always better. to me size was a big factor.
  
 one bit of good advice. do not overextend yourself to buy these things. it is totally not worth ruining your life. honestly any material goods are of rather little importance in anyone's life. some can get it, some cannot. however those that cannot get it are no worse off.


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## cygnusx

@yage, if you don't mine me asking how much did you pay for the upgrade from AX-5 to the AX-5 Twenty?   Also, what would you guys say would be a good price for a new AX-5 Twenty.  

 Btw, don't worry @music_man, I was kidding about the college fund.  I'm taking out a second mortgage on the house.   Kidding a side, thanks for the advise, but if I couldn't afford it, I wouldn't even be playing around with Ayre equipment.  My thing is, I want a good deal and I'm ok with the used market.


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## yage

@cygnusx - I paid the difference in cost between the AX-5 Twenty and AX-5, which at the time was $3k.


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## music_man

new ayre equipment is the same price at every authorized dealer. used i have no idea.


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## ToddRaymond

Previously I had a K-3x and V-5xe, which I enjoyed immensely. Now I have a V-1xe, but haven't been able to afford a second hand K-1xe (or a new KX-5 Twenty, which would also do just fine). In the meantime I'm using a Lyr 2 with some good, overlooked Russian 6N3P-Es as a preamp. Anyhow, the used V-1xe cost me less than half of what a new VX-5 Twenty would have. Would be interesting to compare the two, but I'm sure I'll be content for a while.


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## music_man

the codex takes some "support" to really be killer but trust me it wil be worth it. it wil narrow the gap betwen it and dacs 4x it's price including the qx-5. it will never reach the qx-5 but it will get scary close. which to people that need compact is a huge deal. i can put any dac in here except for size. i have the msb diamond select here but i cannot use it in this system. wish i could because the rest of this system is very nice. on that note don't kid yourselves. the msb smokes both the codex and qx-5. the vivaldi interestingly is not so fantastic in my book and neither is the dave. i know these "should" be in a different stratosphere but really only the msb walks on all comers imo. still, i cannot fit it here so discussing it is pointless. in that regard due to it's size the codex is really something if you set it up right. i do highly recommend to use it with the ax-5 twenty. maybe you guys can get a used one. see this stuff is amazing. my speakers shall need much more power but it is fine. you can build a small reference class system.


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## music_man

I said this before but i find it very odd that there is no picture of the inside of the codex on the internet that i know of. it is understandable how they fit it though. most full size dacs have a lot of empty space inside. you figure take every bit of space out od dave or hugoi tt and it would fit in the codex case maybe. since the size is not too far off already. how hot it gets is a big issue if they did not adress it but i am sure they did. they need to have compensation circuitry. otherwise that heat will eventually throw it way out of spec. however dacs themselves do perform better hot. that is why some high end dacs have an "oven". perhaps they are so smart it hapens to be just the right temperature and they do not require compensation circuitry. i am not worried though. since by the time it dies there will be much better dac technology. dacs are like computers. well they pretty much are computers. so every six months, year there will be better technology. you could honestly have this be end game if you want though. i mean there is always better but this qualifies as reference quality imo. i just really want to see what is in it but i do not wish to take mine apart. i was fully capable but my health has severely degraded and i could easily break it. i would like to try to replace the xmos bus powered chip with a non powered one but i can no longer do it myself. if you use independent power from the pc it is fine though. that, actually makes a big difference as does balanced operation. with those two things in place you would be hard pressed to find anything under $5k-$8k that will absolutely beat it. the qx-5 beats it but not by even close to a mile. so long as it is set up as i say. i think it is easily better than the qb-9 dsd. which is why i really want to see the inside of it. obviously why ayre discontinued it. right now they would be hard pressed to make anything with an ess chip, even 9038pro that walks all over it. don't worry it will come shortly i am sure. the big problem is dumping noise into it but that is very easily overcome. if someone is looking at this and odes not have it already. if you are not going to run good balanced cables and provide external usb power i would honestly forget this dac. if you are going to do those things i do not think you can touch it at the price. just really want to see the inside. is anyone willing to open theirs?
  
 edit:
 well this is very interesting. i was only playing flac files from jriver in native format with no dsp. i just hooked up the meridian 808v6 with a nordost white lightning. the sound is considerably better than the computer! i totally did not expect that. the codex was solidly high end equipment. this proves there is no reason not to use this in a $$$ system if you have limited space or whatever. i mean the sound was actually approaching the msb select and perhaps even besting ayre's own qx-5 twenty. i figure they do not want this to be known if they even know. absolutely amazing! now, i downgraded to a sony 999es modwright which is no slouch and it was not as good. so what you put in is obviously what you get out. just as a totl dac should be. i was really floored at this. oh, i was also using a prime carbon fiber cd mat which i swear by with any mechanical transport. just like a turntable clamp is a must. jriver on a pc is much more convenient but now that i heard this i will have to labor lol. i imagine this may hold true not using the qx-5 as a music server and with a transport as well. i can test it. i was sure the computer was better than a transport but no way. this was very surprising indeed. i guess software is just no replacement for the sound quality of a dedicated redbook transport. obviously having thousands of titles at the press of a button is much nicer. i am torn what to do now. jriver sounded very good with it and had i not known about this i still would have maintained that the codex competes with some #5k-$8k dacs. now hearing this the gap has narrowed even between the best of the best. i am guessing the qx-5 will follow suit used in this manner but do not know yet as i have not tested it but i am about to. i have to brink it upstairs first. all i can say is ayre really has their circuitry down. the issue is with using software to render the music i guess and i really thought it would be the other way around.


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## BlackstoneJD

The difference in functionality between a disc spinner and a computer audio solution is so massive that to some extent it is irrelevant. I can't imagine ever going back to a spinner. it is simply unfathomable and probably is also unnecessary because of the dedicated server devices that have appeared on the market in recent years.

 it is really hard to find a reference point to use in figuring out what your PC-based solution should sound like. in my personal experience recently trying to re-create the sound of a reference system that included the QX5 in my own house, I have come to the conclusion that everything matters, including the USB cable that you use to connect the device to your computer and the software you are running. alternatively as far as the QX5 being a transport, my understanding is that The ethernet cable that you use and the quality of your network infrastructure, and how well suited it is for audio is also likely a factor. ironically when I recently changed cables from a good USB to a great USB the best way I can describe the change in the sound is to say that it made my PC sound more like a dedicated transport. It also made The sound more consistently good regardless of what the PC was doing. I think cabling and power conditioning is a big factor in getting a PC-based solution sounding up to par. but it is impossible to say whether a PC can ever sound as good as a transport because every single PC is different.

 theoretically and I say theoretically because I haven't had a chance to test it, the best solution is not a PC using JRiver, but rather a dedicated device like a Melco that was designed for audio reproduction with the same attention to detail as a dedicated CD.

 perhaps by switching to a dedicated CD transport what you are hearing is the codex simply sounding more like a reference system because it is more like a reference system or maybe you addressed some specific deficiency in your PC that the QX5 was better able to mitigate. or maybe you would find that the QX5 gets as much improvement from a dedicated device as the codex.

 The only thing I think you can safely conclude from your experiment is that you can get more performance out of the codex by improving your source. The fact that you seem to think that it makes it sound more like the QX5 suggests that whatever you did brought you closer to your ideal sound and probably was a step in the right direction.

 if you do happen to make a comparison between your PC and a dedicated CD transport or a dedicated server device pleased to report your findings because there are a lot of people out there I think, myself included, who are investigating making that investment in a dedicated source.


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## music_man

i completely agree with you. i am torn. jriver is way fancier than any disc spinner or even music server for that matter. to be honest i had also listened to the pc on the qx5 wiith flac files. still compressed if that even matters. i thought the built in stuff on the qx-5 uses compresion too? i could try an ethernet cable to it because ethernet is way higher quality for audio than usb. i have on my pc what i feel is the best usb cable. two in fact. one comes out of the pc via an aq jiterbug to a dedicated linear +5v usb psu then the other half goes to the dcodex. do not need to do that with the qx5.  my pc is powered strictly by battery via an "online" ups and the stereo by another online ups. i feel they are better than the finest power conditioners, the issue with them would be if you have 1000 watt mcintosh monobloks. i have an ax-5 twenty so it works. i really do not know. the sound went from impressing me for the price to like out of this world. like what i heard when i tried the qx-5 in the store with a spinner. yes, that was also with a spinner. when i got the qx-5 home initially it was much better than the codex i think but i had to run down 3 sets of stairs to a different system. i worked on what i was feeding the codex and it improved a lot. that must be the thing. the codex at least seems to be very icky about what you feed it. even when i went from a $15,000 spinner to a $5,000 spinner there was a big difference. i hope for our sake a dedicated music server will be as good as a spinner. i totally agree today a spinner is a pita. i think that is the thing though, the codex is very particular of the source. a pc is known to be a lousy source regardless of cable. i did not test all this with the qx-5 yet. to say the least though this was a really amazing exercise. also as i said ayre may not even be aware of this. i mean the sound of the pc to the meridian was night and day. i had actually been putting off bringing upstairs some spinners since i got the codex. it is unfortunate though because obviously i would much rather at least use jriver if not a dedicated music server. i will have to bring the aurender upstairs as well. the thing is these items have to temporarily go on the floor on an amp stand. that is why the qx-5 is not up here. i am very lucky for the codex because i have no more room on this table. for that matter this system is highly bastardized. if this system was set up properly it would be world class independent of the dac. the ax-5 is a little underpowered but fine these speakers are amongst the best "mini" speakers in the world. i did not try headphones but i could. i have a number of balanced headphones. including the hd800 and ps1k. of course you cannot plug the sr009 into it. i too hope more people do report. the thing is though you are probably going to need a darn high end spinner. which is what i think  made all the difference. it is just a better source than the pc. a $500 spinner may not even be as good as the pc. i don't know.
  
 oh, blackstone i am glad to see you got the qx-5. btw, are you an attorney? i just figured the "jd". don't worry i don't need an attorney lol.


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## BlackstoneJD

Yes I also have the QX-5 and AX-5. I am feeding 802D speakers which are not mini by any stretch of the imagination. It is heavenly sounding.
  
 My original demo of QX-5 was with 803D3 where the QX was fed by a Melco server via USB, all Transparent cabling, AX-5 Twenty, and I thought it was one of the best sounding systems ever heard period. 
  
 I got a LOT closer to that sound with room treatments (this turned out to be the biggest tweak of all), better Transparent USB cable.
  
 I have a big custom built PC with monster specs for gaming. Not good for audio, theoretically, but it works great. I will eventually, down the road, audition a Melco like device, but honestly there is no need at this stage it just sounds so good. Once I got the room under control, the need to upgrade quieted a bit and I can just enjoy the music. Having said that, at some point I will get bored and at that stage the Melco will get tested. I can't speak to how the Melco compares to the Aurender, but people whose opinions I value have told me that the Melco is the best _sounding_ solution. I would check it out if I were you.
  
 As for USB v. Ethernet, not even recent videos by Charles Hansen himself explaining all about the QX-5's development were enlightening on that point but people I know who have experimented have told me that you really want some device in between your network router and your dAC, and then a really good ethernet cable like a Transparent from that device to the DAC, but it is unclear _what_ exact device one would use. Lots of discussion on the subject on Computeraudiophile.com right now. The computer audio stuff is turning out to be a lot more interesting than I thought.


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## music_man

treatments make a huge difference. unfortunately in here the system is just a freaken mess. i took 85 grand speakers and put them to shame. might as well have bose. i just knew there was only one chance to get those so i figured i could do better later.so far nothing has changed. i do not know about filtering usb. i do know even a stock rj45 cable is better than many $600 usb cables. it is just a better "format". i thought the computer sounded good too. even with the codex. computers that are used for gaming are a rotten source. i just proved this with the spinner. the difference was night and day. that was just with the codex. i did not even try the qx-5 yet. the qx-5 is better than the codex at computer audio. you have to understand we cannot take monster gaming machines as audio servers for the best sound. it is good. however you, like myself are putting $$$ equipment to shame. i do not know about the malco or even aurender but the spinner was a difference that floored me. the other thing that was interesting was the difference between a $5,000 spinner and a $15,000 one. a system is only as good as it's source. unfortunately a general usage pc is a terrible source. the 802 and 803 are much bigger speakers than i have up here in size. i have totl wilsons downstairs. i use some transparent cables but honestly at the absolute high end i prefer brands such as crystal cable. anyways the point here which i just proved but is well known is that a pc is a rotten source. unless it is dedicated to audio usage. which takes modifications that only a skilled technician can apply. i do not know about an audio server yet. i would certainly run uncomprssed files. not even flac. we can argue that but my ears do not lie. i promise you i could pick all this out in a dbt. it is night and day. on another note i had the 805d3 before i went crazy with my speaker purchase in this room. the b&w are good enough speakers for almost anyone. I highly recommend them. of course everyone has different tastes.


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## BlackstoneJD

I don't doubt at all what you are saying about PC. I think relatively speaking there are probably much better sources but I would not call my PC a rotten source. It doesn't sound rotten. The Melco is probably a big step up. From what I have heard it beats even the most meticulously crafted audio purpose built PCs. It runs on an ARM processor--its the opposite of a monster gaming PC. And it can output USB or ethernet. I heard it with the Sennheiser HE-1 system when they demo'd it in Chicago (I got a great five minutes with those cans!) and a lot of QX5 demos use the Melco. It is like a server that is built like a spinner.

Also a few ASC tower traps did wonders to my room. Midbass absorbtion and midrange diffusion. One trap in the corner behind each speaker. It was a jaw dropping change.


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## music_man

treatment makes a big difference but my system in the bedroom is so compromised it hardly matters. it is like you said though. it still sounds very good. if you take b&w's with an ax-5 twenty or ps1k it is still going to sound very good no matter what. the issue is you may have no idea how much better they can get! as far as sources go a multi purpose pc really is at the bottom. i want to hear the he. have to call there and see if i can listen. they know what i will spend so i am sure they will. the thing is i am hard pressed to buy those but after i hear them you never know. i have the he90/hev90. when i was listening to those i actually used a custom amp though. i don't doubt, uncompressed the melco is as good or beter than a spinner. the issue is it still does not have all the functionality of jriver. like two way communication with my urc remote. to be honest i prefer a spinner anyways. then i got lazy after jriver. completely forgot vinyl now. i do not know what the melco costs but you can build something like it for about $1,000usd. well, maybe not. depends on the quality of their usb traces and stuff.  i completely understand why people would want music servers. i got interested too. the problem is it is a tossup between the functionality of jriver and the sound quality of a spinner. even the built in stuff on the qx-5 i thought did not sound nearly as good as just using it as a dac. the codex is certainly the better value but outright the qx-5 is better. if someone is not going to use the built in stuff i would say get the codex. you probably have no idea how good your system actually sounds though. for me i can accept everything being on a table because i have another system in a dedicated listening room. i just imagine what it could sound like. even with the way it is the expensive spinner made a huge difference over the pc. i could run the melco with a usb cable to the codex. i do not have room for the qx-5 in here. if i go there i am just guessing i will probably buy the melco but maybe not the he headphones.


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## BlackstoneJD

Don't get me wrong I use JRiver myself! Love it.


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## cygnusx

Those of you guys who have the Ayre AX-5 Twenty, any suggestions on a decent cheap phono pre-amp. Would like to buy the P5xe but I don't have the funds at the moment. Something under $500 to hold me off until later in the year. Thx


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## jrfmd

codex versus the "DAVE" 
 I had one hour today with my Codex, a dealer's DAVE, my Focal Utopia, and my macbook pro computer full of cd quality music
 the headset cable was the stock focal utopia's cord (unbalanced), the dave was fed the music via usb, the codex was fed via optical and all was done unbalanced
  
 my experience is strictly a music lover with a long history of high end audio (30+ years and mostly high end equipment) no experience as a critic of any type so this is all in my own private  opinion. just as I heard it today.
  
 my experience listening to classical music was that the Dave had a very "polite" sound. There were no shrill treble sounds (even when I believe the music had them present) and drums were missing visceral impact. The low bass notes seemed to be missing the ~30 cycle impact that the codex had in spades. String quartets were smoother and sweeter on the dave but more fun to listen to on the codex.
  
 On vocal tracks they were very close but again, the dave was not as engaging as the codex and it seemed to be less dynamic (remember I'm running the codex in unbalanced mode for this test)
  
 rock and roll, country, blues, etc --- it was a toss up: they both had very similar information but the bass and treble were different and the sound was different: close but I still preferred the codex.
  
 In conclusion (if a conclusion can be drawn from an hour's listening) for my source(apple lossless cd copies) and earphones(focal utopia with stock cables in unbalanced mode) the codex was a clear winner.
  
 Not what I expected.
  
 Jeff Fischman


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## cygnusx

Try it in balanced mode, the Codex will blow away any DAC under $6k maybe more in my opinion. I've changed my entire system to make it balanced.


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## jrfmd

I agree
 my new dragon black balanced is in the mail, I tried a balanced silver dragon with the utopia and codex but it down graded the music (too much treble)
 I am still looking for a new stock utopia cable converted to balanced (awaiting moon audios response to my query).-- this may be the best match (since the single ended cable sounds so good
 the dave is single ended so I believe it would have made a difference to my comparison of the dave to the codex
  
 Jeff
  
  
 .


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## music_man

dave is kind of a joke to me. the codex in balanced will make quick work of dave. now, to be fair compare dave to the qx-5 and the qx-5 will destroy dave. if that is your sound i would stop at hugo tt. however as i said the optical on the codex also seemed much better. nonetheless i feel it is better than dave in any respect. get isolated +5v and great balanced cables the codex can pretty much hang with anything at any price. rather amazing. i compared it to the msb select and the msb was quite a bit better but not incredibly better. if you are going to use the optical and do not have external +5v unplug the usb cable for sure. i think at that point the choice for the qx-5 is if you want the features. also if you are tight on space you can do no better period imo. ayre may have made the codex too good for their good lol. certainly not complaining about that! i feel it is much better than the qb9. some agree and some disagree on that though.
  
 for a phono pre save your money and just get the cambridge cp2 for now. not kidding. it is not the bargain the codex is but it is as good as most $500 phono pres. if you mod it then it is as good as 2 grand phono pres. i use a modded one in the studio to sample lp's. that is with a sl1200. if you have the ax-5 and a tt over 5 grand you are going to need to aim higher. if the tt is in the $1,000 range it is fine.


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## willywill

Quick question will the Codex work with this Rotel RB-1552MK II. I want a 2 channel system in my house but i also want good desktop headphone amp .Right now the dual 3.5mm balanced are dominating my headphones collection 
 http://crowneaudio.com/Rotel-RB-1552-MkII-Stereo-Power-Amplifier_p_98.html


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## cygnusx

I don't see why this wouldn't work if you use the Codex in preamp mode. Note, the Codex does not have a remote so you would need to change the volume manually.


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## music_man

i do not know if the codex has the right voltage to be a true preamp? also it is rather limited on inputs. no analog if you need that. i understand maybe you couldn't get the qx-5. it would be beter at that though i think. i am just recommending the codex and qx-5 because ayre is honestly knocking it out of the park right now. i am not a fanboy because i dislike the company on a personal level. however you cannot beat these dacs at their rspective prices. the ax-5 either. i know it does not have much output if you have big floorstanders but it is really a compact integrated. yeah, it's expensive but it might be one of the top few integrateds out right now. if there was a good way to run the analog wireless on the qx-5 i would put it in the closet. i would need another receiver for my urc and there is no true hi fi wireless option i know of. i mean it is certainly not like the odin 2 balanced i am using from the codex. yes, i know they cost 5x the codex but if you treat the codex right it will pay you back in spades. i do not hesitate to say given that, it is a reference level component. i stress the big thing is to use external +5v usb with it. oh, please do not buy the fake cables i am sure they suck and that is theft. not to be a jerk but it is not cool. unfortunately my aq little cable for the jitterbug ripped in half! i did not even abuse it. no big deal can get them for $25.


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## flatmap

music_man said:


> [...] i do not hesitate to say given that, it is a reference level component. i stress the big thing is to use external +5v usb with it. [...]


 
 Say, @music_man, do you provide this +5v simply by going through a powered USB hub?


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## music_man

yeas, more or less. i use a startech dot com usb port that accepts a usb "b" input. i power it with a linear supply from mouser which is the big deal here. i go out of the pc to a aq tiny cable, to a jitterrbug, from the jittter bug to the startech hub, from the other side of the star tech hub to the codex. unfortunately depending what cables this will be $500+. i am using aq diamond. however i would strongly recommend cardas clear if you cannot spend that much. the other thing is it really needs to be the startech hub and must have the linear supply. not only is the startech one of the few that accepts a full size plug but it seems to lend itself to musicality. combined with the jitterbug i cannot measure noise. i have access to state of the art test equipment. it is a flat line as low as high as it goes. absolutely do not plug anything else into this hub.
  
 you can get isub 3.0 which in theory should be even better but their gear has a propensity to meet an untimely death. plus i prefer the sound of the jitterbug and startech anyways, they also have metal startech hubs with bare wire contacts for the +5v usb. I found it easier to just get a linear supply with a plug that matched the jack. you can also find an old radioshack "regulated" supply. those are very good. i found this alone made a large difference in the codex. please do not ask me to find the supply as mousers site is not easy. you can get it somewhere but it must be regulated or linear. otherwise this is pointless. i highly recommend this be done for the codex. the qx-5 does not need it of course.
  
 it is also a must to use it balanced. either with phones or line out. use the best cables you can afford. use the isolation blocks i had recommended. not the coasters, the blocks. or ayre myrtle wood.
 once all of this is done the codex is, as i said truly a reference quality component. if you want to forego all this just get the qx-5. you will still need good cables. so you are comparing a minimum of about $2,500 to much more. i think with this, it is closing in on "any" dac.


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## flatmap

Thanks for the detailed explanation of your approach and glad to hear your experience is so positive
 with this configuration.  Very helpful.


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## austinpop

flatmap said:


> Thanks for the detailed explanation of your approach and glad to hear your experience is so positive
> with this configuration.  Very helpful.


 
  
 There is a whole host of optimizations you can do upstream of the Codex. I have applied a lot of these, and cannot stress how much better you can make the Codex sound with these tweaks, because the Codex scales so well.
  
 The general theme is isolation, and it applies in all these areas:

*AC power:* dedicated lines, regenerators, isolators
*DC power:* linear power supplies, but particularly, galvanically isolated ultra capacitor designs like the Uptone LPS-1, Vinnie Rossi Pure 4 Ever
*USB "decrapifiers":* Feeding clean 5V with an LPS on USB is just the tip of the iceberg. You have isolators like the Intona, and reclockers like the Wyred 4 Sound Recovery - but I would wait for the coming-soon Uptone Iso-Regen that combines both
*Network:* isolators like the Emosystem EN-70HD or the Etalon, and FMCs (fiber media converters) that "air-gap" the ethernet connection just upstream of your renderer.
  
 Feel free to explore this thread: http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f22-networking-networked-audio-and-streaming/overall-isolation-network-universal-serial-bus-industry-standard-cables-connectors-and-communications-protocols-between-computers-and-electronic-devices-and-power-29916/


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## austinpop

^^^
  
 If there is interest, I can post my current optimal audio topology (chain) here, so you can see how these tweaks come together.


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## flatmap

austinpop said:


> ^^^
> 
> If there is interest, I can post my current optimal audio topology (chain) here, so you can see how these tweaks come together.


 

 I'd say, bring it on.
  
 I looked through the posting at your link, but it would be nice to have the summary version.


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## austinpop

flatmap said:


> I'd say, bring it on.
> 
> I looked through the posting at your link, but it would be nice to have the summary version.


 
  
 Here you go.


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## cygnusx

Unacceptable, please post the color Visio diagram? Just kidding! Nice!


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## austinpop

cygnusx said:


> Unacceptable, please post the color Visio diagram? Just kidding! Nice!


 
  






 
  
 And I'm not kidding about the work in progress. Last night, I discovered a sweet little improvement in SQ by replacing the 2m Cardas Clear USB between my Intona and Recovery with a hard USB A-to-B adapter.


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## cygnusx

austinpop said:


> :rolleyes:
> 
> And I'm not kidding about the work in progress. Last night, I discovered a sweet little improvement in SQ by replacing the 2m Cardas Clear USB between my Intona and Recovery with a hard USB A-to-B adapter.


 Are you using a plain no brand adapter?


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## austinpop

cygnusx said:


> Are you using a plain no brand adapter?


 
  
 Yes, this one: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00PVAJTPG
  
 I also got an improvement from replacing the DC output cable from the LPS-1 with this barrel connector: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00B1JLN28
  
 Both of these were based on others having tried and recommended this. So I claim no ownership for these ideas. Also, these hard adapters only work if you can align the two components suitably. I used coasters and little wood blocks to do this.


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## music_man

Completely agree 100% austinpop! that is the thing, it scales so well. you can make the codex into a reference class component for extremely high end signal chains. in fact if space is a concern i would only get the qx-5 if you were going to use the features. you can bring the codex as a dac very close and that is world class. ayre probably knows this but figures most people won't. so they are safe to still sell much more expensive components. the qx-5 is much more than just a dac though. i would say if you just want a dac, make the improvements if you wish and you can achieve reference class starting under 3 grand. other dacs do not scale this well. they are what they are. to begin with, out of the box the codex is competing with many $5k dacs and you can improve upon it tremendously. i am running the pc and whole stereo off of two separate on line ups's which means they are always powered by batteries being converted to 120vac. if you had much bigger than the ax-5 this does become a problem. the codex is great as is but has the potential to hang with the big boys.
  
 Edit: one very important thing. I am using 3 feet of cat6 to a converter into 160' of fiber back to a converter and 3 feet of cat6. lot of noise in network. the computer is completely isolated form the codex anyways. both on the mains and the usb. you can also use a usb to cat5 converter which works very well as cat5 is better than the most expensive usb cables. just not when it is full of network noise in that application. the computer and stereo are even on opposite electrical phases. it is just a shame my speaker and equipment "stand". not much i can do about that but it still sounds very good. i find it is rather hard to ruin very high end equipment sound unless you face the speakers backwards against the wal or something lol. of course it could sound much better. i got it because i could but it is still a shame i could not place everything correctly after all of this. headphones would be no problem. however no headphone period is a match for the ax-5 and very high end loudspeakers.


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## cygnusx

I wasn't much of a believer in cable upgrades, but I just upgraded the Pangae AG USB cable that I was using with the Codex  with the Audioquest Coffee USB cable and all I have to say is wow.  There is absolutely a difference.  It's like a veil is was lifted.  I'm pleasantly surprised.


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## music_man

you should try the diamond lol! i just realized this usb hub works passive. so the computer can be polluting it. i do not know if it shuts off the incoming when powered. one of few hubs with a b port. the litle aq cable that goes to the jitterbug is unraveling so i will just cut the +5v there. there is a difference. it did not sound as good and then i looked down and the power was unplugged. there is nicer power but with the jitterbug ahead of it this gets close for much less money. i have tried the iusb 3.0 and not a lot of difference. plus their linear psu you really want is the topic of great debate. austins system is obviously nicer. as you saw a lot goes with cables though. i am using very high end cables. not just usb but everything. plus power conditioning or in my case online ups. the ups's probably account for a lot of the good sound here in a more simplified system. much better investment than hydra or something imo.


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## cygnusx

Hahaha....Diamond maybe next.  Just spend a ton of money upgrading my main components and new speakers.  Still waiting for my AX-5 Twenty upgrade to come back home.  Btw, I also ended buying the Ayre P5XE for the turntable.  Busy making everything fully balanced.  Has anybody try the AQ Colorado XLR cables? I just bought a few pairs that were on sale at Music Direct for half the price.  I've slowly realized that AQ indeed makes some fine cables.   

 According to Ayre and my dealer, with the AX-5 Twenty and Ayre's newer components, you really don't need to upgrade their stock power cables since these units have a RFI power conditioner built in.  Apparently, changing the cables makes only a very small difference.  I would imagine a consistent source of power on the hand could make an impact.   The AudioQuest Niagara 7000 seems very nice and better than the Hydra.  I'm not a fan of Shunyata.


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## yage

cygnusx said:


> According to Ayre and my dealer, with the AX-5 Twenty and Ayre's newer components, you really don't need to upgrade their stock power cables since these units have a RFI power conditioner built in.


 
  
 Yes, the "Ayre Conditioner". Note that the Codex doesn't have one, probably because of space reasons.
  
  
 If you haven't seen it already, Digital Audio Review did a short tour of Ayre's facilities and interviewed Charley Hansen about the new QX-5 Twenty. Link here.


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## cygnusx

yage said:


> Yes, the "Ayre Conditioner". Note that the Codex doesn't have one, probably because of space reasons.


 
 I agree not enough space in the Codex.  I've upgraded the power cable on the Codex and got some improvements.  I'm seeing more bang for buck improvements with interconnect cable upgrades than power cable upgrades.


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## music_man

I would use the best cables i could everywhere regardless. an online ups is better than any power conditioner/regenerator.  of course as usual that is my own opinion. the ax-5 twenty does not really have enough power for my speakers but it sounds good to me because it is quality power. i probably would not get their tt. i would get avid or something. or better yet trick out an old gerrard. it is strange how good that can be. Aq does make very good cables it is just the price of the top ones. more than you would expect. i mean like more than odin 2.


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## austinpop

I'm using Pangea AC-14 XL power cables with my Codex, and am happy with the result. These are on sale - no, really on sale, not the fake everyday sale - at Audio Advisor.

For interconnects, I found a great deal on a used pair of Ayre Signature XLR. These sound fantastic! They are apparently very close cousins of Cardas Golden Reference cables, and have a seductive warmth to them.


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## cygnusx

austinpop said:


> I'm using Pangea AC-14 XL power cables with my Codex, and am happy with the result. These are on sale - no, really on sale, not the fake everyday sale - at Audio Advisor.
> 
> For interconnects, I found a great deal on a used pair of Ayre Signature XLR. These sound fantastic! They are apparently very close cousins of Cardas Golden Reference cables, and have a seductive warmth to them.


Did you by any chance try the Pangea AC-14SE Mk2 before buying the XL? Thx


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## austinpop

cygnusx said:


> Did you by any chance try the Pangea AC-14SE Mk2 before buying the XL? Thx


 
  
 Yes I did. I needed a couple more cables so bought the XL, and moved the SE MkII's to other components. But I didn't really try to compare the SE MkII with the XL's. I suspect the difference will be modest.


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## music_man

the amazing thing about the codex is it is only a $1,800 component but there seems to be no limit to how it scales. using anaconda vx power cord. i had to move the codex all the way to the front of the table because the power snake will pull it off the table lol. i just have these cables. i would not buy them for the codex just because of cost. i swapped out to a $400 tara cable and the snake made a huge difference. i have the diamond usb and odin 2 xlr's. switch to lower cables and you hear the difference. most reasonably priced components hit a wall with cables. seemingly not the codex. i do think it would be stupid to buy those cables for the codex. get a better dac at that point. the thing is you can extract reference sound out of it which is at least interesting. i just need to figure out a better way to send it +5v usb. i will not buy ifi because their stuff has a bad habit of croaking.. any suggestions? i saw what austinpop has but i don't know what all of that stuff is or how to implement it.


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## austinpop

Just saw a new review of the Codex was posted on Hi-Fi+. It's positive, of course!
  
 http://www.hifiplus.com/articles/ayre-codex-dacheadphone-amplifier
  
 Quote:


music_man said:


> the amazing thing about the codex is it is only a $1,800 component but there seems to be no limit to how it scales. using anaconda vx power cord. i had to move the codex all the way to the front of the table because the power snake will pull it off the table lol. i just have these cables. i would not buy them for the codex just because of cost. i swapped out to a $400 tara cable and the snake made a huge difference. i have the diamond usb and odin 2 xlr's. switch to lower cables and you hear the difference. most reasonably priced components hit a wall with cables. seemingly not the codex. i do think it would be stupid to buy those cables for the codex. get a better dac at that point. the thing is you can extract reference sound out of it which is at least interesting. i just need to figure out a better way to send it +5v usb. i will not buy ifi because their stuff has a bad habit of croaking.. any suggestions? i saw what austinpop has but i don't know what all of that stuff is or how to implement it.


 
  
 I sympathize with you there, @music_man!
  
  I can certainly guide you, and the good news here is that better, simpler products are coming. Let me give you a very short intro, and you tell me what you'd like to dig into, if at all.
  
 The areas of optimization are AC power, DC power supplies, USB, ethernet, and mechanical. There are even more, of course.
  
 Diving into USB, yes feeding a clean 5V to the DAC is vital, but you also want to break ground leakage loops. John Swenson, who contributed to the design of the Regen, the LPS-1 ultra-cap PS, the Sonore microRendu, and many others, explains it far better than me here: https://uptoneaudio.com/pages/j-swenson-tech-corner
  
 If I were starting over, I would just wait for the upcoming Uptone ISO-Regen. I know it's not been announced, but word on the forums is that it is imminent. Combine that with an LPS-1 power supply, and you really should have 90% of everything for USB optimization. I leave 5% because there's always something better that comes along!
  
 The key things that you achieve "air gaps" of galvanic isolation: both on the USB path (by the ISO-R) and on the DC path (by the LPS-1).
  
 In summary, a really kickass list would be:

ISO-Regen - price unknown, but < $300
LPS-1 UltraCaps LPS supply - $395
USB hard A-B adapters, or _short _USB cables. I really like the 200mm Curious USB cable at $125ish, I think.
  
 Now I know $700+ seems laughable to spend on optimizing the USB chain to a $1800 DAC, but then this is the Codex we're talking about. You can, of course, shave the cost quite a bit, by reusing existing USB cables, going for a cheaper LPS, like the el Cheapo Chinese LPSes on eBay for ~$100. I can give recommendations.
  
 Final note, and bringing it back to your original question - using something like the chain above, you don't ALSO need to inject clean 5V to the Codex separately. Not that I haven't tried. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 It didn't make an incremental difference.
  
 I'll leave it there, and we can take it further only if there's interest.


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## music_man

thank you! I have the aq diamond. 2 actually. plus the jitterbug and dragontail. right now it is just going to a hub with a linear psu. however i think that hub does not break the ground. even when power is aplied. that is why i am looking for better. the other cables as are i stated. $700? not a problem lol. there is already $45,000 of cables! as i said i obtained these. i did not go buy them for the codex. however compared to even any $800 cables the higher you go with the codex the better it gets. i am very interested in better usb signal. so i will wait for what you mentioned. meanwhile just having serious cables and somewhat cleanner usb signal made a huge difference in it's sound. i first had it connected with much cheaper cables but i dug these out. lo and behold they actually make a big difference. as i said with most products ar a price point you will hit a wall with cables. not with the codex apparently. unfortunately i need 6 meters of usb. perhaps i should look into usb over ethernet? since good ethernet cables should be better than any usb cables. that alone might do the trick, just usb over ethernet. your thoughts on that?


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## austinpop

music_man said:


> thank you! I have the aq diamond. 2 actually. plus the jitterbug and dragontail. right now it is just going to a hub with a linear psu. however i think that hub does not break the ground. even when power is aplied. that is why i am looking for better. the other cables as are i stated. $700? not a problem lol. there is already $45,000 of cables! as i said i obtained these. i did not go buy them for the codex. however compared to even any $800 cables the higher you go with the codex the better it gets. i am very interested in better usb signal. so i will wait for what you mentioned. meanwhile just having serious cables and somewhat cleanner usb signal made a huge difference in it's sound. i first had it connected with much cheaper cables but i dug these out. lo and behold they actually make a big difference. as i said with most products ar a price point you will hit a wall with cables. not with the codex apparently. unfortunately i need 6 meters of usb. perhaps i should look into usb over ethernet? since good ethernet cables should be better than any usb cables. that alone might do the trick, just usb over ethernet. your thoughts on that?


 
  
 6m of USB is a real challenge. I have no personal experience with USB over Ethernet solutions. So I can't make recommendations. I've heard good things about PS Audio's LANRover product, but not experienced it myself.
  
 Any way you can reduce the USB length, and trade it off with a longer <something else>? For example, a longer balance XLR interconnect?


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## music_man

not really. I do not want to put the codex on the floor. it is on vibration isolation. usb over ethernet seems like a good option. i know 6m usb is a real problem. in fact if i kill the power often it will lose communication. so i know performance is degraded even though i have a linear psu on the +5v. i do know ethernet is superior to the best usb cables. so i guess worth a try. i will check out ps audio. i think wireless would be a very bad option. at least i have totl usb cables right now. aq diamond. in fact a basic belkin cable can not even establish communication. so i know the aq is at least better. the run is too long. i know this. not sure what the ultimate solution is but i wil figure it out i guess. usb over ethernet can run 150' so that says something about ethernet right there. usb max spec is actually 5m and even that is not good. you are correct longer xlr's is much better and i do have them but again i do not want it on the floor. i am just afraid currently this usb hub does not break the ground or +5v so even though it has a linear psu it may be being polluted. it is very easy to cut the two wires on the little dragon tail though. especially since the sheath is unraveling. i am almost positive it will still work. i just do not know if this hub cuts the connection from the pc when external power is supplied. i can easily figure that out with a multi meter though. then perhaps i do not have to bother cutting the cables. while i wait for the new product you mentioned. still, too long usb. so ethernet might be my best option. i will just se how it sounds. i can return it. it is a little pricey. a good set is like $250. they have cheap ones with cables attached for $35 but i am not messing with that. then of course i need to buy a 1 meter diamond. plus a good ethernet cable right there that is another $600. it's fine if it sounds good. in fact perhaps it is the best. i don't know yet but i suppose i will find out soon. should not need the regen with that. that would just be adding more to the signal chain that is not used in the ethernet spec i am prety sure. adding things to the signal chain just for the sake of it is not always going to sound better. that is why usb should be as short as possible and i am way too long here.
  
 edit: yes, i see the lanrover. interesting he mentions exactly what i have done. a hub and the jitterbug. may get close to the regen. i don't know. however you can get products like the lanrover and probably as good for $250. + a $250 1m cable and $100-$200 5m cat5-6 cable. i am sure he has no no monoply on this. sure, it is built for audio...... the industrial boxes are probably as least as good as they are for mission critical data labs. data is much more important than our music obviously. data is not for enjoyment but big money is involved if it cuts out. i am not entirely sure but i imagine a data level ethernet extender shall suffice. of course he cliams his idea is better than the regen but it is not at all a new idea. built for audio? perhaps. if it meets the spec it should be the same thing. i imagine. i do like ps audio but if you take that at $600 plus the cables now you are at a grand. i already had these very expensive cables as industry samples. it is not like i went and bought 45 grand of cables for the codex. so i really do not wish to spend a grand on it. $600 is enough and again, i am guessing simply transmitting the signal in data packets is what we are looking to achieve..of course i could be wrong. perhaps ps audio has something special. i kind of doubt that though. i do like many of their products but this is not audio hardware. it is computer hardware. still, just guessing. i find it interesting he threw out there exactly what i went and did for starters.
  
  
 edit again: nevermind ps audio does have a monopoly on this. the commercial units only have usb a plugs and the codex requires a usb b plug. ps audio has just that. not sure i want to spend that but might be my best option. sending the signal as data packets over ethernet should certainly be superior to anything usb period. at least as far as i can imagine from what i know.


----------



## austinpop

music_man said:


> not really. I do not want to put the codex on the floor. it is on vibration isolation. usb over ethernet seems like a good option. i know 6m usb is a real problem. in fact if i kill the power often it will lose communication. so i know performance is degraded even though i have a linear psu on the +5v. i do know ethernet is superior to the best usb cables. so i guess worth a try. i will check out ps audio. i think wireless would be a very bad option. at least i have totl usb cables right now. aq diamond. in fact a basic belkin cable can not even establish communication. so i know the aq is at least better. the run is too long. i know this. not sure what the ultimate solution is but i wil figure it out i guess. usb over ethernet can run 150' so that says something about ethernet right there. usb max spec is actually 5m and even that is not good. you are correct longer xlr's is much better and i do have them but again i do not want it on the floor. i am just afraid currently this usb hub does not break the ground or +5v so even though it has a linear psu it may be being polluted. it is very easy to cut the two wires on the little dragon tail though. especially since the sheath is unraveling. i am almost positive it will still work. i just do not know if this hub cuts the connection from the pc when external power is supplied. i can easily figure that out with a multi meter though. then perhaps i do not have to bother cutting the cables. while i wait for the new product you mentioned. still, too long usb. so ethernet might be my best option. i will just se how it sounds. i can return it. it is a little pricey. a good set is like $250. they have cheap ones with cables attached for $35 but i am not messing with that. then of course i need to buy a 1 meter diamond. plus a good ethernet cable right there that is another $600. it's fine if it sounds good. in fact perhaps it is the best. i don't know yet but i suppose i will find out soon. should not need the regen with that. that would just be adding more to the signal chain that is not used in the ethernet spec i am prety sure. adding things to the signal chain just for the sake of it is not always going to sound better. that is why usb should be as short as possible and i am way too long here.
> 
> edit: yes, i see the lanrover. interesting he mentions exactly what i have done. a hub and the jitterbug. may get close to the regen. i don't know. however you can get products like the lanrover and probably as good for $250. + a $250 1m cable and $100-$200 5m cat5-6 cable. i am sure he has no no monoply on this. sure, it is built for audio...... the industrial boxes are probably as least as good as they are for mission critical data labs. data is much more important than our music obviously. data is not for enjoyment but big money is involved if it cuts out. i am not entirely sure but i imagine a data level ethernet extender shall suffice. of course he cliams his idea is better than the regen but it is not at all a new idea. built for audio? perhaps. if it meets the spec it should be the same thing. i imagine. i do like ps audio but if you take that at $600 plus the cables now you are at a grand. i already had these very expensive cables as industry samples. it is not like i went and bought 45 grand of cables for the codex. so i really do not wish to spend a grand on it. $600 is enough and again, i am guessing simply transmitting the signal in data packets is what we are looking to achieve..of course i could be wrong. perhaps ps audio has something special. i kind of doubt that though. i do like many of their products but this is not audio hardware. it is computer hardware. still, just guessing. i find it interesting he threw out there exactly what i went and did for starters.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yeah, you have to pick your poison. Assuming your source is the "mountain" and the Codex is "Mohamed", you either:

bring the mountain to Mohamed, or
bring Mohamed to the mountain, or
buy a LANRover-like solution.
  
 Mixing metaphors.


----------



## music_man

lol. well said. i guess i am going to go with the lan rover. unless i can get an a-b adapter. i know you like the regen but trust me running over ethernet is going to be the ultimate. even if i do not employ the ps audio brand. as i said that is computing equipment not audio equipment. there is really no way you can make that "sound better". i fully believe in cables etc but this is a completely different animal. i have a feeling the way he cornered the market is simply with a b plug for $599. wait, i have an idea. i can take the a side with an a to a adapter. then b into the codex. that wil work. as i also said i hate putting more things in the signal chain but should not matter with ethernet. that is a completely different type of data than usb and far superior for anything that can employ it. that breaks the usb signal with no +5v usb at all except externally. simply because the device(codex) requires the power. there are pasive ones which are best but doubt they work with the codex. you could try it. it should be vastly superior. much more robust data transmission. otherwise i wil just get the ps audio. it shal be very interesting as to what improvement there is. you do not even need a fancy cat5 cable. a stock cat5 cable is better than the best audio usb cable. simply because of the type of data transmission. in fact there are no very expensive cat5 audio cables that i know of. it is every companies lower line afaik. i am running usb to long. out of spec in fact. even though i have great usb cables the length negates any benefit imo.either way i should realize a benefit simply due to my usb length. twisted pair used to go hundreds of miles before fiber. or i could just leave it since i am powering the cable anyways. i have 1.5 meter unpowered from the pc to 4.5 meters powered with a linear psu. still it is beyond usb spec any way i cut it. first i need to cut the +5v and ground and se if there is any improvement. i am not sure this hub cuts it when external power is present. in fact even a multimeter will not tell me. i suppose i will pick up the cat5 adapters and try it though. ps audio is built nicer but electronics should be the same. in this case better caps,resistors should have no bearing on sound. if they even use them. they may be charging that simply for a metal chassis. it could inexplicably sound better though. often as cables do with nothing one can measure. so i will not put it past it. simply going to cat5 should be an improvement either way in this situation.


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## austinpop

music_man said:


> lol. well said. i guess i am going to go with the lan rover. unless i can get an a-b adapter. i know you like the regen but trust me running over ethernet is going to be the ultimate. even if i do not employ the ps audio brand. as i said that is computing equipment not audio equipment. there is really no way you can make that "sound better". i fully believe in cables etc but this is a completely different animal. i have a feeling the way he cornered the market is simply with a b plug for $599. wait, i have an idea. i can take the a side with an a to a adapter. then b into the codex. that wil work. as i also said i hate putting more things in the signal chain but should not matter with ethernet. that is a completely different type of data than usb and far superior for anything that can employ it. that breaks the usb signal with no +5v usb at all except externally. simply because the device(codex) requires the power. there are pasive ones which are best but doubt they work with the codex. you could try it. it should be vastly superior. much more robust data transmission. otherwise i wil just get the ps audio. it shal be very interesting as to what improvement there is. you do not even need a fancy cat5 cable. a stock cat5 cable is better than the best audio usb cable. simply because of the type of data transmission. in fact there are no very expensive cat5 audio cables that i know of. it is every companies lower line afaik. i am running usb to long. out of spec in fact. even though i have great usb cables the length negates any benefit imo.either way i should realize a benefit simply due to my usb length. twisted pair used to go hundreds of miles before fiber. or i could just leave it since i am powering the cable anyways. i have 1.5 meter unpowered from the pc to 4.5 meters powered with a linear psu. still it is beyond usb spec any way i cut it. first i need to cut the +5v and ground and se if there is any improvement. i am not sure this hub cuts it when external power is present. in fact even a multimeter will not tell me. i suppose i will pick up the cat5 adapters and try it though. ps audio is built nicer but electronics should be the same. in this case better caps,resistors should have no bearing on sound. if they even use them. they may be charging that simply for a metal chassis. it could inexplicably sound better though. often as cables do with nothing one can measure. so i will not put it past it. simply going to cat5 should be an improvement either way in this situation.



 


Oh if only it were true that Ethernet really provided galvanic isolation, and that all ethernet cables sound the same! Then there would be no need for active (fiber media convertors) or passive (Emosystems EN-70HD) isolation in the path.

Can you recap your chain from source (music data files) to the Codex? I'm wondering if there's a simpler way to do this. Make sure to identify cables, and lengths too.


----------



## music_man

pc motherboard>6" aq dragontail>jitterbug>1.5 meter aq diamond>hub powered with linear supply>4.5m aq diamond>codex>3m odin 2xlr's>ax-5 twenty. anaconda vx on codex and ax-5 twenty. pc and codex+ax5 twenty are on separate online(battery power) ups's. completely isolated from building electrical.
  
 I really thought ethernet was all the same. i guess i was wrong. that figures. i should have known better.


----------



## austinpop

music_man said:


> pc motherboard>6" aq dragontail>jitterbug>1.5 meter aq diamond>hub powered with linear supply>4.5m aq diamond>codex>3m odin 2xlr's>ax-5 twenty. anaconda vx on codex and ax-5 twenty. pc and codex+ax5 twenty are on separate online(battery power) ups's. completely isolated from building electrical.
> 
> I really thought ethernet was all the same. i guess i was wrong. that figures. i should have known better.


 
  
 Yeah, it really looks like the least disruptive solution would be to replace this:

"6" aq dragontail>jitterbug>1.5 meter aq diamond>hub powered with linear supply>4.5m aq diamond"
 with this:

good 6" USB cable > LanRover Transmitter > 6+m of Blue Jeans Cat 6a Ethernet cable > LanRover Receiver > a good 6" USB cable > Codex
  
 Of course, then you can optimize more:

Replace LRover receiver power supply with a good LPS, or even better, a galvanically isolated Uptone UltraCaps LPS-1. Note - this only works if the LR receiver works at 7V or below, and 1.1 amps or less.
The LR Tx is powered by the +5V from the computer's USB bus. You can use an LPS or battery PS to power it instead, using something like the 2-headed Lightspeed 2G USB cable
Use an EmoSystems EN-70HD isolator on the Ethernet cable to provide even more noise isolation
  
 Each of the above steps would be a "try and see if it improves SQ" approach.
  
 Longer term, you may want to consider a streamed approach, using either UPnP or the new, hot thing, Roon. In all of these approaches, you place a small computer - called either a streamer/NAA/Endpoint - adjacent to the DAC, while the music server runs further away and drives the endpoint over the network. You can control everything either from the music server system as before, or on a separate control point - computer/table/smart phone.


----------



## music_man

i have a qx-5 twenty but it is downstairs as i have no room for it here. that would solve a big part of the problem. since i mainly use the msb downstairs anyways. not sure where i could put it. that is a lot to go through when there are already better dacs. the codex will scale nicely but what a pain!


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## cygnusx

I've been reading this thread and I'm thankful I don't have your ears.  For me it's not worth squeezing more out of the Codex going crazy upgrading everything. Instead of banging your head on the wall, maybe you should consider focusing on getting the QX5/20 to work in your space, which for the most part, would solve your problem. maybe you should consider moving your UPS batteries further away to make space or change the UPS to something smaller to make room for the QX5. Is it possible to put the QX5 in the next room or closet, if you have one, and pull both the Ethernet and xlr through the wall?


----------



## music_man

thanks. my ears and eyes actually work against me. i am not bragging but to understand what i mean i have grammy's. it might seem lucky to have great eyes and ears but often it is a pain. i am constantly nitpicking instead of enjoying. like i feel i must get up and toe in a speaker .5 more degrees. to put the qx5 in the closet is an idea. the thing is on the wall where the ax-5 is behind it is a high end shower. pipes everywhere. i can never drill into that wall. i even had to use my tv on a stand because of it. incidentally what is taking up a bid part of the real estate there. so, i could go under the floor into the basement and right back up 8" away with the xlr's. those are big holes though and i would like to keep this home worth something lol. plus the odin 2 i will have to wrap that through the holes. not risking wrecking those. see though, austinpop is suggesting more than necessary. sure it would be better. however anything is better than 6m of usb. i can go pc>dragontail>jitterbug>.5m usb>hub w/ linear psu>ethernet sender>ethernet cable>ether net receiver w/ female-female adapter>.5m usb>codex. sure there are differences in ethernet equipment. how long my usb run is any ethernet should be better. although i do not know this because it is the aq diamond usb. even though it is beyond spec for usb. i am powering it though so of course it works. i really do not know if ethernet would sound better. i do not wish to get the lan rover though. at that point i would take out the drill and get the qx-5 up here. yeah, ultimately it should sound better either way but what a pain. also, i take it austinpop  you do not consider the aq diamond a "good" cable? in my and stereophiles opinion it is class a+. there are other flavors to be had but it is in the top tier imo. i would gather certainly above blue jeans you mentioned. anyways i will figure this out. not a problem just work and i have to decide which direction i want to go. even if you put the codex to the wall with the  best of everything the qx-5 is still slightly better anyways. might just take out the drill. i am not like home improvment. i know what i am doing and take my time. it will be fine and probably worth it just time. first i will run the different variations on the floor to see what sounds best. i could even just put the xlr's from the qx-5 right under the door for now but i do not like shoddy jobs. i know all this is my own personal problem i was just sharing it with you guys. as i am not really sure what to do. max out the codex or just find a location for the qx-5. interestingly maxed out they are rather close and the qx-5 has much better electronics so that i find odd. hardly any one is going to go spend tens of thousands hooking up a codex though. it is still an interesting exercise. this thing seems to scale to whatever you throw at it. other equipment there is a point where the cabling exceeds the ability of the component. from what i have witnessed not the codex. it will make good use of whatever you care to give it with incremental improvements as far as one cares to go. sorry for so long winded.


----------



## austinpop

music_man said:


> thanks. my ears and eyes actually work against me. i am not bragging but to understand what i mean i have grammy's. it might seem lucky to have great eyes and ears but often it is a pain. i am constantly nitpicking instead of enjoying. like i feel i must get up and toe in a speaker .5 more degrees. to put the qx5 in the closet is an idea. the thing is on the wall where the ax-5 is behind it is a high end shower. pipes everywhere. i can never drill into that wall. i even had to use my tv on a stand because of it. incidentally what is taking up a bid part of the real estate there. so, i could go under the floor into the basement and right back up 8" away with the xlr's. those are big holes though and i would like to keep this home worth something lol. plus the odin 2 i will have to wrap that through the holes. not risking wrecking those. see though, austinpop is suggesting more than necessary. sure it would be better. however anything is better than 6m of usb. i can go pc>dragontail>jitterbug>.5m usb>hub w/ linear psu>ethernet sender>ethernet cable>ether net receiver w/ female-female adapter>.5m usb>codex. sure there are differences in ethernet equipment. how long my usb run is any ethernet should be better. although i do not know this because it is the aq diamond usb. even though it is beyond spec for usb. i am powering it though so of course it works. i really do not know if ethernet would sound better. i do not wish to get the lan rover though. at that point i would take out the drill and get the qx-5 up here. yeah, ultimately it should sound better either way but what a pain. also, i take it austinpop  you do not consider the aq diamond a "good" cable? in my and stereophiles opinion it is class a+. there are other flavors to be had but it is in the top tier imo. i would gather certainly above blue jeans you mentioned. anyways i will figure this out. not a problem just work and i have to decide which direction i want to go. even if you put the codex to the wall with the  best of everything the qx-5 is still slightly better anyways. might just take out the drill. i am not like home improvment. i know what i am doing and take my time. it will be fine and probably worth it just time. first i will run the different variations on the floor to see what sounds best. i could even just put the xlr's from the qx-5 right under the door for now but i do not like shoddy jobs. i know all this is my own personal problem i was just sharing it with you guys. as i am not really sure what to do. max out the codex or just find a location for the qx-5. interestingly maxed out they are rather close and the qx-5 has much better electronics so that i find odd. hardly any one is going to go spend tens of thousands hooking up a codex though. it is still an interesting exercise. this thing seems to scale to whatever you throw at it. other equipment there is a point where the cabling exceeds the ability of the component. from what i have witnessed not the codex. it will make good use of whatever you care to give it with incremental improvements as far as one cares to go. sorry for so long winded.


 
  
 LOL - I think all the cable you have are more than "good enough." People usually start with modest cables and then upgrade, but you're already past that point.
  
 The more I read about the LANRover, the more I'm intrigued. This had gone under my radar, but apparently getting good reviews. 
  
 Since you have champagne taste in cables, the Ethernet cable that gets a lot of acclaim, but at high cost is the AQ Vodka.
  
 Anything's possible - you just need to decide what you want to do.


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## music_man

yeah exactly i just need to decide. i mentioned i did not buy those cables lol. they are manufacturer samples for review that i got from other folks in the music industry. all i get is free magazines 
 i would be hard pressed to buy cables like that. i also really want the lanrover. tbh, a $15 ethernet cable is better than an aq diamond usb. just a better format for digital information transmission. it is data in that state. not music until it hits our ears. hence this being digital. heck i do not need to sell you, we are both sold on it. me especially due to the long run. i will bet that is better than roon. all this and the codex can actually get very close to the qx-5 with lesser electronics. i would say it is already within 15%. i am sure ayre would like to shut me up here! of course the average codex customer would not have those cables or battery power.
  
 remember i said i felt the codex was even better with toslink. again, scaling up to a $$$ disc spinner.  here is what i don't get. transparent is a ultra high end company but their only toslink is from a lower line. afaik it is fiber. it sounds better than the aq diamond with many strands of quartz! have not tried both on other dacs yet. i think it is because the transparent quite obviously has better connectors. the most important part of a toslink cable is the terminations not the type of fiber used. there is always something interesting in this hobby. let's be honest we enjoy to listen but we also love to tweak our gear.
  
 being better on toslink is fine with me. for any serious critical listening i would use the disc spinner anyways. a multi use pc just cannot match it. very likely a real music server can. i gather this because the thing about the meridian is it uses a dvd drive. it reads to memory with no error correction. so i am thinking it is the spinner equivalent of a music server. once again i have no room for the aurender up here either. certainly much more convenient than discs. i am not positive it sounds the same though.
  
 with the spinner the codex could be end game. except dac technology will continue to advance if one wants it. even with the lousy computer it is very nice. i think i can close that gap with the lanrover! there are much cheaper products but in that case a good usb cable is probably going to be better. i thought ps audio had a gimmick but it is seemingly the only device of it's kind. cheaper ones would still need a hub as not to run on the pc's power. adding more things to the signal chain is not always a good thing. i had already done what he said was the next best thing. it was interesting he knew this too. i think the lanrover is the best thing to improve pc audio. running over ethernet should be vastly superior.


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## austinpop

music_man said:


> yeah exactly i just need to decide. i mentioned i did not buy those cables lol. they are manufacturer samples for review that i got from other folks in the music industry. all i get is free magazines
> i would be hard pressed to buy cables like that. i also really want the lanrover. tbh, a $15 ethernet cable is better than an aq diamond usb. just a better format for digital information transmission. it is data in that state. not music until it hits our ears. hence this being digital. heck i do not need to sell you, we are both sold on it. me especially due to the long run. i will bet that is better than roon. all this and the codex can actually get very close to the qx-5 with lesser electronics. i would say it is already within 15%. i am sure ayre would like to shut me up here! of course the average codex customer would not have those cables or battery power.
> 
> remember i said i felt the codex was even better with toslink. again, scaling up to a $$$ disc spinner.  here is what i don't get. transparent is a ultra high end company but their only toslink is from a lower line. afaik it is fiber. it sounds better than the aq diamond with many strands of quartz! have not tried both on other dacs yet. i think it is because the transparent quite obviously has better connectors. the most important part of a toslink cable is the terminations not the type of fiber used. there is always something interesting in this hobby. let's be honest we enjoy to listen but we also love to tweak our gear.
> ...


 
  
 OK well - let us know what you do, and how it sounds.


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## ToddRaymond

austinpop said:


> For interconnects, I found a great deal on a used pair of Ayre Signature XLR. These sound fantastic! They are apparently very close cousins of Cardas Golden Reference cables, and have a seductive warmth to them.


 
  
 That's good to know.  I've been curious to try those XLRs myself.  I previously had a second hand pair of the Ayre Signature speaker cable, and I sort of regret replacing them with some Neotech OCC stuff.


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## austinpop

turdski said:


> That's good to know.  I've been curious to try those XLRs myself.  I previously had a second hand pair of the Ayre Signature speaker cable, and I sort of regret replacing them with some Neotech OCC stuff.




They're hard to find. 

But Cardas Golden reference is sold through a parts site at half MSRP. Google will take you there. They seem legit, based on my emails with them.


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## music_man

I am not entirely sure ayre manufactureers wire and accessory products in house. thar could be like rebranded cardas. just a guess. i just don't think ayre is big enough to be making wire. that requires big bucks equipment. i could be wrong though. most cardas does not have silver. silver is not better in my opinion. it just gives a brighter sound if you like that. for our purposes copper makes a plenty good connection. with occc and stuff the grain structure plays a role in audio but certainly not in like building wiring. it is not "better" it just sounds better.
  
 ethernet should be a superior transfer method to usb for all purposes. however us, going usually just a few feet it shall make litle difference. what will be of utmost importance is if he provides things like galvonic isolation and optoi-coupling in their product. as usual he is vague what it has. he is afraid people will clone it and they do to him. so we really do not know in our case if it is vastly superior to usb. usb is fine up to like 4 feet for our purpose. of course with external power. that is the key for us. my run is simply too long. so i must look at ethernet. on the otherhand less than 20 feet for ethernet is a huge waste. whatever sounds better of course. as for the regen, it is a high quality hub. with good external power. i have prety much provided the same thing. paul even cited that. the jiterbug as well. the combination may not be any worse than the regen. i do not know. for starters i will run catt5 and just build my own flavor of lanrover. what i build may in fact be better or it may not be. i do expect to hear a nice difference with isolated cat6 at that length. if i had less than 4 feet i would stick with usb and use the regen,iusb 3.0, or homebrew device. i can build as good as them. i have a doctorate from mit and a masters in broadcast. not bragging at all just saying i can build whatever anyone can, perhaps better because of a simple fact. if a component has $5 of parts it must sell for about $50. i will use the best parts there are. one thing i cannot make is wire. i can assemble wire, jackets, terminations but a furnace and everything is big bucks. that is why i am not sure ayre actually makes wire. i know they have a relationship with cardas. hence the myrtlewood blocks. that is fine though. if you like cardas it is top notch wire. i am just thinking about the cat6 transmission system i am going to build. i will not post the schematic for the same reason. my work is not free. many people do free work, even here but not my cup of tea. not to be a jerk either. i am sure you guys can understand that. what i am dying to find out is if it sounds better! as we agree the codex will scale to whatever you throw at it. that is very unusual. generally the cables should cost less than the device. what was interesting when i swapped a $500 spinner for the meridian the sound plummeted. any way you cut it a spinner or perhaps music server should be way better than a multi use pc. that is one reason i do not wish to throw a ton of money in my cat6 system. sure, i will use the diamond cable but the transmitter and receiver i better build for $250 which i am sure is easily doable. plus about 20 hours of my time. that is the kicker though because i am giving my time away to it. i could spend that listening for once. if it turns out to be much better i will be impressed. if not i will just kick myself  you have to understand a lot of digital audio technology is borrowed from industrial data transmission. so starting with usb, jitterbug, hub with linear psu is probably pretty comparable to commercial audio solutions. i am guessing. at my length usb must go though. it is solely the length here or it would be fine. i imagine usb can be as good as the lanrover at less than 4 feet. sorry for super long post again but i hope at least someone is getting ideas from this.


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## music_man

nevermind: i cut the +5v and ground. working fine on external linear power. data is cleaned via jitterbug. which actually filters data whereas regen does not afaik. plus to my amazement i took apart this industrial hub and looking me in the face is a lm317! i am not going to do any better with usb. already having the aq diamond cables as well. i just need to shorten it a bit. not really though because the longer end now has plenty of power. you can run usb as long as you wish so long as power is provided. for devices that require power such as the codex of course.
  
 i need to make sure i am providing external usb power for starters. should i cut the +5v and ground or just the +5v? I would think to cut the ground as it is certainly polluted but i am not sure anything will stil be working at that point. i only have one shot at this. i know i just said i know what i am doing. however i am not sure exactly what the codex requires for handshake. that is not a lack of my knowledge but obviously not having a schematic of the codex's xmos board. i do not wish to be the first person to open it or blow it either!


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## ToddRaymond

austinpop said:


> They're hard to find.
> 
> But Cardas Golden reference is sold through a parts site at half MSRP. Google will take you there. They seem legit, based on my emails with them.




Yeah, I know of the retailer you speak of (thanks for the heads up thoigh!). Not that I don't find my current speaker cables with their nice Furutech rhodium plated spades to sound really good, but the Ayre stuff did impart something a big magical (that warmth you mentioned perhaps). Could be a synergy thing.

@music_man Cardas manufactures their cables, and provides the wiring they use inside their gear.


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## music_man

turdski, i kind of figured it was cardas. that is great they use cardas inside their products too. good stuff.
  
 now......cutting the cables made a night and day difference! apparently the power connection and ground were still reaching the codex from the pc. now, it is completely isolated and i cannot believe the difference! this is not at all subtle. all this time i didn't do that. at this point this thing sounds like a $25,000 dac! it may be on par with the qx-5 twenty. i have to test that later. there whole xmos board is ruining the damn thing. do not know why they did that. dave is not so great and i do not have it here but it is over 15 grand and just from memory this will slaughter it. i mean i wish you guys could hear the before and after. it blew my socks off. it just makes me mad i did not do that long ago. plus that they even incorporate that since it is holding it way back apparently.


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## music_man

just an fyi. the uptone regen is pretty much a hub. it has a led which is not a good thing. led's can seriously pollute the signal with high frequency noise. the led is run off the main power branch.
 the ifi iusb3.0 is like an "expanded" aq jitterbug. ie, better. however caveat emptor ifi products have a habit of prematurely dying. made in china in factories amr does not own. their power pack is a must which incidentally has the worst habit of dying. they love to talk it up but do not address the failures. i would do exactly as i have and it made a huge difference. get a metal 12v input startech hub. they have a lm317 since they accept 12v. before it a aq jitterbug where you defeat the +5vusb and ground. then a linear psu from mouser or an old radioshack one on ebay. unlike ifi, lasts forever or so. use the jitterbug with it's dragontail. then cable of your choice out of the jitterbug to the hub. cable from the hub to the codex. try to stay as short as possible. i had this here all the time but did not realize the huge potential until i cut the power and ground. all these audiophile devices reallly are hubs. accept the jitterbug and ifi. i would go my route since you cannot count on the longevity of ifi products but it is in fact better. sourcing the linear psu is the only part that is not a piece of cake. you need to know the barrel diameter id,od and polarity of the hub you are powering. radioshack with adaptaplug is best but you will have to wait for one on ebay. that was a extremely good psu. modeled after their bench psu at the time. it has a transformer of course being linear. plus it is regulated. the ifi is not regulated and can be all over the place anyways. plus their xformer is 1/3rd the size of the one in the rs unit. much better than mouser as well if you can find it. granted i am running big bucks cables but i cannot see the codex sounding beter than this. at this point i felt it even edged out the qx-5 twenty! now it is truly a reference class component. the sound is sublime. in fact the usb is now superior to the toslink. if anyone wishes to and can manage to do this for $100 of parts they can take the codex into a different realm. one more thing. if you get the startech hub. open it and disconnect the led harness. just molex that unplugs. unlike uptone that is soldered to the board.this is all you need. no fancy audiophile solutions other than the jitterbug which is cheap. i think anyone will be amazed at the transformation. the codex is very good out of the box but do this and you are now competing with most dacs of any price. i honestly cannot believe the sound. the toslink is nowhere near it now. next i will do an audio only laptop with bare bones os and jriver. i feel it should be very superior to audio servers. all music will be on an ssd read to system memory as it is now. however this is currently a multi purpose pc so it stands to get even better. right now i would not trade the codex for an msb or dcs! the sound has floored me. it is a shame they used the xmos usb receiver though and we could avoid all this. that's all.


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## cygnusx

Lots of moving pieces. music_man, can you maybe summarize the materials needed and the steps required? It's a lot reading to piece together everything. Appreciate it. Thx


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## music_man

PC>aq dragontail with +5v and ground defeated>aq jitterbug>usb cable>startech hub with linear power supply(very important!)>usb cable>codex
  
 i see this: https://www.amazon.com/Pace-Universal-Adapter-Standard-Supply/dp/B005NDTAEQ
 it has the letters "lps" on it. I am not sure if it is a linear supply. does not look like it but seems to otherwise be very high quality.
 can anyone tell if this looks linear? if so it is your answer. i would certainly get the aq power cord for it as well if it is in fact linear.
 otherwise that old rs unit remains the one to get. or a unit from mouser you will have to terminate and know the specs.
  
  
  
 Linear?


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## music_man

the above psu is 12 volts! only for use with the startech metal hub that accepts 12v input and usb 3.0. if you use it with another hub you will kill your codex!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! otherwise look on ebay for a radioshack model 273-1667. that was the very good psu that i am currently using. set it to 4.5 volts only! more voltage and you will most certainly kill the codex! <<<< warning! I am waiting to find out if anyone knows anything about the above psu. i also asked in diy as they may beter know. did not mean to crosspost but this may get limited exposure in this thread. i do not know about the above psu other than it is 12v for the startech that accepts 12v. it looks good to me. i do not know how quiet it is. 273-1667 has inky blacks and great imaging. way quieter than the pc once the wires are cut. plus it plugs in directly but it is huge. the one above accepts a cord but the only audiophile cord is very low grade for $79. i just wanted to warm everyone do not put more than 5 volts into anything that is going into the codex unless you are using the startech hub that accepts 12 volts. it steps it down obviously. the plastic startech hub with the type b input also has the famed lm317. so it may accept more voltage but i certainly would not try it!


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## robi20064

If you are interested, there is a rather long discussion on using StarTech/Icron USB over LAN extenders (very similar to what the PS LANrover does) - to improve sq here:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/829639/usb-strikes-back-watch-out-aoip-usb-ethernet-chain-beats-all-at-least-for-me


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## austinpop

music_man said:


> just an fyi. the uptone regen is pretty much a hub.


 
  
 I am going to caution anyone considering this - go educate yourself over on Computer Audiophile. For links and suggestions, see my previous posts here -

http://www.head-fi.org/t/750809/ayre-acoustics-codex-dac-headphone-amp/615#post_13154690 , and here - 
http://www.head-fi.org/t/750809/ayre-acoustics-codex-dac-headphone-amp/645#post_13181957
  


> before it a aq jitterbug where you defeat the +5vusb and ground.


 
  
 Be careful about defeating ground. It's not just the pin on the connector, it's also the shield on the cable that has to be disconnected. And if you do that, you may break handshaking with the DAC. 
  


> but i cannot see the codex sounding beter than this. at this point i felt it even edged out the qx-5 twenty!


 






 I said that about 6 tweaks ago. I keep saying this after every tweak, and yet the improvements continue! Also, be careful about DAC comparisons. How do you know these same tweaks won't help the QX-5 Twenty too? The point is that just buying a good DAC is only the beginning. There are further improvements possible.


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## austinpop

robi20064 said:


> If you are interested, there is a rather long discussion on using StarTech/Icron USB over LAN extenders (very similar to what the PS LANrover does) - to improve sq here:
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/829639/usb-strikes-back-watch-out-aoip-usb-ethernet-chain-beats-all-at-least-for-me


 
  
 Interesting thread! Thanks for the heads-up.


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## robi20064

It isn't "only" dedicated to USB over LAN, but a lot of useful discussion regarding what LPS options are out there, the latest gen Xmos DDC options, how could one further improve his USB chain and so on. Jut don't blame it on me if you are getting sucked into it


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## music_man

as usual i agree austin. the only thing i can see that i can improve now is going to lan. the lanrover is the best option but don't want to spend $600 than a grand on a cable. i know you wil say but i have all these cables i can afford. i said they were engineering samples given to me by others in the music industry. i did not pay a cent for maybe i have 300 grand of cables lol. you aproached this with audiophile components. maybe better i don't know. often audiophile components can be found on the industrial side too. as for the qx-5 i plugged it in the same cable setup. it did not change at all because it does not use bus power. bus power imo is crippling the codex. if you remove it/clean it plus clean the data it will unleash it imo. the data also suffers on the codex. not on the qx-5. the qx-5 is at a price people will expect it to work without playing these games. it is no doubt a better product overall but the codex i feel is at least on par as a balanced dac at this point. which is astonishing because the codex has a older noiser dac and overall not as good electronics. it just sounds really good to me this way. i have a bit of a feeling yours sounds even better. remember though my whole system is powered by filtered batteries. online ups. the ax-5 is small enough to do that. some 1000 watt mcintosh mono's no way lol. as for the ground i broke it at the computer and it works fine. power up/down many cycles to test. break it after the power(hub) you have problems. obviously with dc you need + and - for a signal. it does not have to originate from the pc though. just as long as it gets power. i unplug the power to the hub, the music stops and the codex reads usb. so i know i broke the connection at the pc. well, i cut the wires so of course.
  
 i do not know about that psu above and if it would improve things or if the next step is to go lan. i think wireless is probably pretty bad but don't know. i will go cat6. as i also said a standard cat6 cable is probably better than the aq diamond usb. the aq diamond cat5 is probably the cats pajamas. usb is just not good at transferring data. this is in fact data not audio. improve the data transmission we improve the audio. i need to know about that psu before i go buy the rest of the parts to try it. not sure if it will get better. will be cheaper than lan. the old rs psu is very robust and super quiet. i measured it once dc to daylight and not a lot of noise anywhere we would be hearing it. just by memory it is better than the ifi wallwart. there are always some on ebay. i just pulled up a few. like $12-$18. i am saying startech because they are the only hubs with a full size b jack. not all of them. i am guessing the one that steps down from 12v is very quiet but i do not know about this psu brick. someone mentioned in diy somewhere wallwarts from a decade ago were mostly no good. mostly. that rs is from the 80's and is superb you can tell by the size for only 800ma it is not average. the codex only needs like 3ma to handshake. do not plug anything else in this hub or you will pollute it!
  
 austin, we had different approaches but it would be interesting for us to hear each others results. unfortunately i am guessing i am nowhere near you. middle of nowhere wisconsin. 1/2 hour car ride to first business of any kind. this was my dream after chicago for 40+ years. you can imagine why. i am sure you watch the news about chicago. lucky i lived quite frankly. .
  
 if anyone can tel me about that psu it would be much appreciated. want to try it but don't even know if it is any good. the old rs made a much quieter background. why did they have to use the xmos board? it is like a hog tie to this thing. i will go read that robi. perhaps next step is just lan. dang that cable is $$$.


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## music_man

robi, i see you cut ground and vbus as did i. i thought the codex has gi? why do the cheaper startech usb-cat5-6 extenders suck? at that price i would be hard pressed not to try the ps audio. unless i understand this correctly you are plugging usb sicks in the other ports? if so i do not see how that can transfer anything. i see you are using a bjc cable. not sure if usb with the aq diamond is as good. a stock cat6 cable should be better than any usb cable but the diamond cat5 should be far superior. you have a very nice setup. are you using a codex? i do not know what all the other stuff is. rex,lex etc. i figure just go pc>dragontail>aq jb with pins cut>1.5m diamond usb to startech extender>diamond cat5 to other extender>1.5m diamond usb to codex with linear psu's on the extenders? what is all this other stuff. sorry i have not been keeping up with this at all. plus isn't it best to add as little to the signal chain as possible? it seems you do know about psu's. could you please tell me about the one i have in mind? is it smps or linear, well built? I can use those to power all these little black boxes i am going to have. unless those old rs wallwarts(if you can cal them that) are better which is very possible. there were a few times long ago that rs made some very hq things. furthermore, could you please outline your entire usb signal chain to me if you do not mind?
  
 i see there are no cheaper usb over ethernet devices. i see one box deals. i assume that is to send usb to ethernet but not receive usb on the other end? plus they only use bus power which is exactly what we don't want. i have no doubt ehternet sounds better.
  
 soon i will go that route. should have to begin with. it should be no secret ethernet is better at transffering data. this is data after all. when the data is better the audio is better. that is pretty simple. i am sure some would dispute that but i will just write them off as not knowing  aheap of beans. austin, is this what you are doing as well or are you using usb for the full run?
  
 i cut the cables in the dragontail. cannot figure out how to open the jb,duh? then how actual;ly wil we provide gi?
  
 for right now all i can do is upgrade the usb hub. which would involve that psu i do not know the specs on. it will only make a difference if that psu is better than the old rs one. it says lps on it but i do not know if that means linear power supply. honestly that is all i can do at the moment. it is only worth it if that psu is indeed better.
  
 sorry for so many questions. this is like the first time here i am lost lol. right now i can do is looking at betering the hub revolving around the quality of that psu. if it is better, it should still make an incremental difference but not like going usb over ethernet. at this point i already have the usb better than the toslink. a couple of days ago i was floored how much better the toslink was! now all music will come from the pc. in fact the meridian $$$ spinner uses a dvd rom drive. read to memory makes a huge difference. pc will do the same. putting music on usb sticks is a great idea if i read that right. i just do not understand this entire signal chain. austin and robi you have very complex setups. i would honestly think less is more but apparently not in this case.


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## robi20064

I'm afraid it wasn't me but the other Rob (rb2013) in the uber-usb thread  He has done quite some mods on his current chain, feel free to PM him, he is a very friendly person.


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## music_man

oh i thought that was you lol. i figured it all out though. he went through several brands of usb extenders over ethernet. he is not using them all at the same time, duh. that is where it got confusing for me. i was like why does have all this redundant stuff. in fact he doe snot. like i said, add as little to the signal chain as possible. less is more. usb over ethernet is most certainly the way to go. as i keep saying the cheapest cat6 cable sis better than the best usb cable. obviously he figured this out as well. 15' vs. hundreds of feet should tell us something right there. much more intact signal without dropouts etc. it is sent a spackets which is the technology that is making the big deal for us. i just can't do it right now. i am wondering if going to the other hub with the psu will make any difference. i think honestly, i have gotten all i can out of usb at this point so quit there. the trick was cutting the vbus and ground. the diamond cables are very nice but i had to provide clean power tot he codex and not fill it full of pollution. that was the whole thing cutting the pc's power. it is stupid of ayure because many people would not think of/ do that. he cut it as well. it sounded good but that simple step was like night and day. like austin said it just keeps getting better. i am sure going to ethernet is another huge leap. i feel this can actually surpass it's big brother. in fact it already has a slight edge. with ethernet it might simply be beter but not sure because then the game changes. the qx-5 twenty has an ethernet port! so it can speak native ethernet without conversion going on. at the point the qx-5 may walk away from the codex again. it is fun to compare but i mean no insult or bragging. the qx-5 twenty remains the nicer device as it should. in it's own sake the codex just seems to scale higher and higher. i am not even at the point others like austin are at yet. with better cables i guess the sky is the limit. this thing does not seem to hit a brick wall where other sub 2 grand dacs quickly do. using only with ax-5 twenty no phones but i do have some balanced ones here. just cutting those wires offered a completely different and much more pleasing sound. pretty amazing. i have to poo poo ayre though for using the vbus xmos board. there was no reason for them to do that. yes, it was built to a price but only a few bucks more would have done it justice big time. i cannot wait to get ethernet.


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## robi20064

Yes, he has experience with almost all the known DDCs from the past years. After that he turned to AOIP than got back to USB with the mixture of ethernet using one of those StarTech USB over gigabit LAN extenders + LPS for all components + Singxer F-1 + storing music on a SLC type USB flash. He strongly beleives the result is very analog-ish for him. I admit it sounds a bit complicated, but the biggest leap is probably the StarTech in that chain.


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## music_man

i agree. ethernet is going to make a nice difference. as for the psu, that is switching and junk compared to the old rs linear regulated unit. high speed noise. strange it has the letters lps on it. it was not hard to research that. so i guess i have gone as far as i can go with usb. i will be looking forward to ethernet. for that price i will probably go with the ps audio. i am currently floored with the sound. getting better will put it somewhere i cannot even think of. already i will put this up against all comers. it is just a shame they did not make it this way out of the box. i am not being an idiot, it actually sounds that good. i imagine the diamond usb and anaconda VX, odin 2 ic's help a little


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## robi20064

Not about to convince you otherwise, but actually the LANrover is the most expensive out of the StarTech/Icron/PS Audio pack - and you cannot take advantage of storing music on additional USB due to having only one port.
  
 StarTech:
  
 https://www.ballicom.co.uk/usb2g4lext2-startech-com-4-port-usb-2-0-over-lan-.p1009343.html
  
 Icron:
  
 https://www.icronshop.com/icron-brand/icron-ranger-2304ge-lan
  
 Both are 4 port editions.


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## music_man

okay then, cdw has a good price on the startech. they should give me an even beter price as i am a good customer. i guess i will just get that. i do not understand how you access the thumb drives though?
  
 also i realized cutting the ground does in fact cause problems. just cut/tape the +5v. that is if anyone sticks with usb. ethernet is vastly superior. especially for my long run.
  
 Edit: that's it though? just run it over ethernet. they do not need to be special audiophile devices? perhaps not as this is data. data is the it world's forte. not audiophiles. so i imagine as you say it is as good or superior. just run it over ethernet and boom, the best sound you can obtain in that data format. i would supose that is true. plus the extra ports. i would probably power it with a good psu not the one that comes with the startech. not sure about that either though. do we need a audiophile cat6 cable? sure, there is the aq diamond but a stock ethernet cable should be better than any usb cable. i am repeating myself, sorryt. i imagine you can up the ante with the cable but the switch to ethernet should be pretty big as is.
  
 now i have a problem. just wrecked a dragontail and jitterbug. that thing is glued shut. my hub works without power applied. for now, how do i know it disconnects the pc's +5v when the external psu is connected and does not just boost it. there has to be some easier way to cut the +5v line. i tried tape but it moved upon insertion. any ideas how to do that without hacking a cable? or to figure out if the hub disconnects it? that is for right now. i will get ethernet soon. i will call cdw tomorrow. if my sales rep makes me a great deal i will just take it. right now i ned to disconnect the +5v without cutting anything with my fudge fingers. i shorted the darn thing. was working wonderfully up until them. the difference was huge. i can only imagine the leap to ethernet. i do not think one needs all this extra stuff though. jitterbug, startech set psu and cables. i figure that is it. as i also mentioned it is best to keep the signal chain as simple as possible imo. maybe not even use the jitterbug anymore. i can try cutting in the hub but rather not wreck that as well. i imagine the 12v hub is not connected but those high frequency smps suck. a good smps can be fine in fact but not those little boxes. just have to figure out how to break the connection while not breaking the whole thing!


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## cygnusx

Honestly, I have no other references to compare, but since my Aurender N100H, already has a very clean USB out with linear power, I feel like I'm not running into the same issues noted with PC based music servers.  Maybe, I'm already getting pretty clean sound of the Aurender, none of the isolators or AQ Jitterbug seems to improve the same sound for me.   So far, the best bang for buck as been replacing the USB cable itself with a higher grade cable.  Anybody have experience with using an Aurender to the Codex?


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## music_man

you are correct about that. have aurender too. get this. i have no idea how but the codex is currently running with no bus power! the cable is cut on the +5v and there is no external power of any sort. i was absolutely sure before it required bus power. maybe i did all this for nothing and cutting the cable was just placebo lol. i swear it sounds 100% better. i noticed this when i unplugged power from a hub that had the +5v cut. it kept running,stopped and started. did not lose sync. strange. it must be, the qb-9 did not need it neither does the qx-5. perhaps no departure there after all. i swore i did this before and it stopped, reading simply usb on the display instead of 44. got me.


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## austinpop

music_man said:


> you are correct about that. have aurender too. get this. i have no idea how but the codex is currently running with no bus power! the cable is cut on the +5v and there is no external power of any sort. i was absolutely sure before it required bus power. maybe i did all this for nothing and cutting the cable was just placebo lol. i swear it sounds 100% better. i noticed this when i unplugged power from a hub that had the +5v cut. it kept running,stopped and started. did not lose sync. strange. it must be, the qb-9 did not need it neither does the qx-5. perhaps no departure there after all. i swore i did this before and it stopped, reading simply usb on the display instead of 44. got me.




The Codex needs USB 5v and ground. I've verified it does not work without it. Alex and Ariel from Ayre - yes all Ayre employees have first names that begin with A  - have confirmed this for me.

Not sure what you experienced.


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## music_man

i know, alex did for me too. it did before. something is not right. i have no idea. that is why i was upset with ayre before because +5v was a let down. there is some reason it is working sans power if so but who knows. i am probably getting power somewhere and did not realize it. i am done fiddling with it tonight though. ill figure it out tomorrow. time to listen!


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## music_man

a bug was itching me and not a jitterbug lol. i got up and investigated. i was indeed powering it. it will not run without power as we all know. however i recommend to cut the +5vusb but not the ground. I had cut the ground in a jitterbug and the jitterbug ultimately fried. luckily not the codex. you could try cutting the ground on the cable but i am not. the ground is a good thing imo. it is a drain wire in the wrapping of the cable. the codex may require it even with external power. it is not a ground in the usual sense but a drain wire. at the least you may suffer interference with the codex if you cut it. now it is cut for sure. no power, no go. power, music. that rs psu is much better than a laptop high frequency smps. too heavy for socket on the ups. so i used a custom 8" extension cable i had. not an iec cable. all works fine.


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## music_man

I am not entirely sure aiop is beter. you are sending packet data rather than real time data. that is why it can run so far. great for people that want pc in another room. i am not sure it is an improvement for audio vs. usb. you can get these things for $20 to try. just not powered but hub can power. has anyone else used this besides rob in the other thread? i would honestly now after thinking about it think it sounds worse not better. you are chopping the data into slices rather than streaming it. that may or may not sound better i don't know. i am kind of guessing it sounds worse. gives you long range. if rob is satisfied great but i would like to hear from more people that they felt this sounded superior to a usb>usb run. i add that there is so much stuff in his signal chain it may be placebo. it is best to keep a signal chain as simple as possible. constantly adding more devices to "enhance" the sound shall in miost cases degrade it. i am going to try a very simple aoip but am not expecting much. i also do not expect the starttech rex/lex to sound any better. in it's simplest format i do not know how it wil sound yet. adding 20 things to the chain is really just rather tweak than listen. doubtfull all that sounds any better. not sure about aiop but will find out. however it will be a much simpler run. even if all that did in fact sound better i am not interested in all of that. i would like to hear from anyone else that is running aiop with an async dac. not calling the guy out. let him have his fun. perhaps what he is notcing is beter is the usb thumb drives. audio data outside the pc is better. it would be interesting if it is that and not the ethernet. i just do not see ethernet working wish a async dac. perhaps his is not either. if you are streaming live content only way outside a pc is a audioserver. which incidentally as mentoned here by someone else receives no benefits from usb tweaks. it is fine on usb. the culprit is the pc not really the transmission protocol. i am now having my doubts about aoip other then to put the pc in another room. packet data as opposed to real time are not realy interchangeable formats. the xmos receiver does not expect that. it handles it because it is changing it back to usb. there is also conversion going on right there. it is not native to the xmos board. still, i will try this. people just jumped on because of ps audio i imagine. there is so much audio voodoo to be had. you all know this. if you are one who subscribes to it all being improvements that is fine. i will judge for myself. again, the main benefit is very long runs. otherwise i see a detraction, not a benefit. furthermore now i se he does not even call this aoip anymore but rather usb over ethernet. if it sounds better to him great. i will be the judge as to whether it sounds better to myself. also of note is that ps audio includes a psu that is not at all fit for the job. of course does startech but it is not an audio product. how stupid to put the noisy powere right back on the line! i wonder if rob is using the stock startech psu. if so he is kidding himself.
  
 okay, i have tried usb over ethernet. cannot even get it to communicate with jriver at this point. requires drivers and does not work with everything. this was really meant for pc>pc communication, print servers and not all dacs will function with it. i do not know if rob was using a codex.
  
 wanted to ad: if you are cleaning the usb that is all you need to do. you do not need to clean any other part of the pc, including broadband which is a misnomer. much more noise is coming from psu,gpu,cpu and fans if any. laptops have very noisy psu's. try to run it on battery for audio. which ddly enough is the best power source. my entire pc and stereo run on batteries, online ups. broadband is not polluting my usb because i cut the +5v and have chokes on the data. cleaning anything else is just redundant. to each their own.
  
 ethernet would not work with codex. worked with msb go figure. has ethernet anyways. so could just cut out that middleman. on the msb i thought it sounded worse on the msb. think about it. converting usb to ethernet and back to usb. two incomparable formats. too much conversion going on. if rob likes it great. others did not like the ps audio unit. i got the startech. did anyone else actually try this and have it working with positive results on the codex?
 sorry for such long post. i edited as i went along as not to hijack the thread.
  
 one more thing. if it works with your dac. you can use a switch/router at the pc to a ethernet/usb adapter. much cheaper and imo nicer. alas, ethernet seems not to jive with the codex. changing data format back and forth. obviously does not like it.


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## robi20064

There is a very long thread on AOIP with multiple people using Focusrite Rednet devices and claiming there is a big difference compared to standard USB. This was Rob's previous approach before he went back to maximize on the StarTech/USB hybrid.
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/806827/audio-over-ip-rednet-3-16-review-aes67-sets-a-new-standard-for-computer-audio


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## music_man

i do not know about rednet. rob got mad at me for some reason. then today he says they replaced the startech with a new version. that does not always work. well, lo and be hold it did not work with the codex. the codex is actually rather finicky about usb signal. play with it enough and it will not handshake. just read "usb" on the display. for instance i have a dac here that can take a 20m non powered usb run. way out of usb spec. the codex will lose signal at just 18 feet. 16 some feet is the 5m spec. so it is not as tolerant as some others. the startech would not work and he got mad. depending on what aoip entails i will look into it. meanwhile i am telling you guys a very high quality usb chain, no ethernet just usb sounds incredible! the codex is not every dac. the usb i outlined is good enough for me. it sounds wonderful to me. i will put this up against any comers with a stock usb chain. sure, the msb is better but the qx-5 amazingly is not leaps and bounds better. no doubt, they come from the same house. the qx-5 is still somewhat better dac and has other features so i am by no means saying the codex replaces it. i was floored the difference ultra clean usb made. what really killed the codex is that xmos receiver you have to do all this.
  
 btw, sorry for other post i got carried away.


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## austinpop

Fellow Codex-heads,

Have any of you tried HQPlayer with your Codex? What did you find to be the optimal configuration?

The conventional wisdom appears to be to upsample to the highest supported rate (in the case of the Codex, DSD 128 or PCM 384), whereas my inclination is to trust that Ayre know what they're doing, and just pass through the native sample rate of the stream.

Just curious if any have tried HQPlayer *with the Codex?*

Please don't answer in abstract terms - there are entire threads debating HQPlayer. I specifically want to know how (or if) it improves the Codex *for you.*


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## mink70

austinpop said:


> Fellow Codex-heads,
> 
> Have any of you tried HQPlayer with your Codex? What did you find to be the optimal configuration?
> 
> ...


 
 Hey austinpop—
  
 I use HQPlayer with my Codex. I find that I prefer its sound—and not by a small margin—to Roon, Amarra and Audirvana+. Of course the UX is a bear to use and it's very processor intensive. To use Roon as a remote application for HQPlayer, you need either a very powerful computer (like a quad-core i7 with lots of RAM) or two computers. But, in my experience, the SQ justifies the hassle. 
  
 To answer your question, upsampling PCM files to DSD 128 sounds best to me. (On the other hand, I prefer DSD files without upsampling.) In fact, I'd say that the magic of HQPlayer really only comes out when you upsample. I should also say that I' haven't been a fan of upsampling before getting HQPlayer. Playing the file straight through always sounded best to me, and still does in Audirvana. But in HQPlayer, upsampled files sound unambiguously better to me—it's not a subtle difference. And of course there are various filters you can play with—my favorites are regular poly sinc for PCM and DSD7 for DSD. 
  
 Hope this helps,
 Alex


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## austinpop

mink70 said:


> Hey austinpop—
> 
> I use HQPlayer with my Codex. I find that I prefer its sound—and not by a small margin—to Roon, Amarra and Audirvana+. Of course the UX is a bear to use and it's very processor intensive. To use Roon as a remote application for HQPlayer, you need either a very powerful computer (like a quad-core i7 with lots of RAM) or two computers. But, in my experience, the SQ justifies the hassle.
> 
> ...




Thank you! That is exactly the kind of info I was looking for.

Now you have me intrigued.


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## austinpop

mink70 said:


> Hey austinpop—
> 
> I use HQPlayer with my Codex. I find that I prefer its sound—and not by a small margin—to Roon, Amarra and Audirvana+. Of course the UX is a bear to use and it's very processor intensive. To use Roon as a remote application for HQPlayer, you need either a very powerful computer (like a quad-core i7 with lots of RAM) or two computers. But, in my experience, the SQ justifies the hassle.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I have a machine available on which to try it. The specs are:
 
*Processor: *Core i7-4770 @ 3.4GHz, quad core
*Memory: *12GB RAM
*Graphics: *NViDIA GeForce GT 635, IGB
*Disk: *256GB Samsung Evo (system), 1TB 7200RPM for music
*OS: *Windows 10 Enterprise
  
 Hoping that's powerful enough for HQPlayer and Roon?


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## music_man

i cannot get hq player to work on two machines but these are with windows insider previews. that could be why. don't know. however i found the codex works best when files are played at their native format. charlie hansen agrees.for what it is worth. i would tend to trust him though since he designed it.
  
 i found  a clean usb chain makes a big difference. all kinds of tweaks i found simply degraded the sound. i would simply run jriver with no dsp and the files in their native format using wasapi.
 that is just me. everyone else is of course welcome to do as they please.


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## austinpop

mink70 said:


> Hey austinpop—
> 
> I use HQPlayer with my Codex. I find that I prefer its sound—and not by a small margin—to Roon, Amarra and Audirvana+. Of course the UX is a bear to use and it's very processor intensive. To use Roon as a remote application for HQPlayer, you need either a very powerful computer (like a quad-core i7 with lots of RAM) or two computers. But, in my experience, the SQ justifies the hassle.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi Alex, 
  
 Can we get down to brass tacks? Would you tell me exactly what settings you modify in HQP to achieve what you said in words? Here's what I have so far. This does no upsampling of PCM or DSD.
  

  
  
  

  
 Any info would be much appreciated!!


----------



## mink70

austinpop said:


> Hi Alex,
> 
> Can we get down to brass tacks? Would you tell me exactly what settings you modify in HQP to achieve what you said in words? Here's what I have so far. This does no upsampling of PCM or DSD.
> 
> ...


 
 Austinpop, the preferences look very much like mine. I believe upsampling is forced on the main screen, in the four drop-downs. I use, going from (left to right),  poly-sinc-2s/DSD7/5644800/SDM (DSD). This should force all PCM to be upsampled to DSD128. If you want DSD files to be played back without upsampling, which sounds best to me, go to the "file" menu at the top of the screen, choose "DSDIFF/DSD settings," and check the box that says "DirectSDM." That should do it. Please report back about what you hear.


----------



## austinpop

mink70 said:


> Austinpop, the preferences look very much like mine. I believe upsampling is forced on the main screen, in the four drop-downs. I use, going from (left to right),  poly-sinc-2s/DSD7/5644800/SDM (DSD). This should force all PCM to be upsampled to DSD128. If you want DSD files to be played back without upsampling, which sounds best to me, go to the "file" menu at the top of the screen, choose "DSDIFF/DSD settings," and check the box that says "DirectSDM." That should do it. Please report back about what you hear.


 
  
 OK thanks, I will.
  
 Oh, one other question. What about PCM at higher resolutions like 24/192, 24/352.8 and 24/384? Wouldn't converting those to DSD128 be more like downsampling?


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## mink70

austinpop said:


> OK thanks, I will.
> 
> Oh, one other question. What about PCM at higher resolutions like 24/192, 24/352.8 and 24/384? Wouldn't converting those to DSD128 be more like downsampling?


 
 I convert high-rez PCM to DSD as well. I find it works very well. My advice: don't worry so much about the theory and just give it a listen. It won't take you long to figure out what you prefer.


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## music_man

jplay,hq player, fidelizer al crash. perhaps jriver is blocking them. he hates those. tbh, jriver does all of that anyways. at least with a plugin or two. i would not go to crazy on usb even though i sort of did but stuck with solely usb. i do not change it into packets. i would not try to tweak an ordinary pc too much either. waste of time imo. you will do better with a dedicated music server. much better. at that point i would be looking at something like the qx-5 twenty anyways. which i also have. so you can use a native cat6 connection without any conversion. converting to packets and back to me sounds much worse. others as well. ymmv. i just do not know why all the "tweakers" crash here. as i said with ayre equipment i would play files in their native resolution. again, ymmv.


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## music_man

well i wanted to try microrendu and psa lanrover. could not get either of those to work either. that, may be very old streamlength drivers we have. don't know. i am unhappy hqplayer does not work. got fidelizer working though. i know no one can troubleshoot my pc in this thread nor would i ask them to. i have no idea why these things do not work. i am lucky i have sound at all i suppose. also beter gear is going to make more of a difference. i am happy with my sound. the weakspot of the codex is the usb board. you can put garbage right into it and it will output garbage. most pc's are full of garbage. so i tweaked the usb chain somewhat but did not go crazy. that is honestly very important with the codex. although a better amp,headphones,speakers etc isat that point going to make much more difference than tweaking software imo. i could be wrong though. i heard no difference with fidelizer. i think if your usb hardware chain is good enough these programs shall make little difference. i honestly do not know that for sure though. if hqplayer is better than fidelizer i would like to at least try it but alas, it does not work here. i wish i could get the microrendu to work but my understanding is it just does not suport jriver? jriver is my favorite app. just a personal preference. on a mac you could do better but on a pc roon etc. has more features but i do not think better sound. if anyone wants to help me to get these things to work i would really appreciate that. although i know it is a long shot. there are simply too many varibles in windows to troubleshot this in this thread afaik. just feel bad this stuff is not working for me. i will try anything. i am not against anything either. if something sounds better to me i will be the first to say so. although according to charlie hansen you should use the codex in native format. i agree from my experiments. if upsampling sounds better to anyone than by all means do it! i have a feeling the things i am playing with simply do not jive with jriver. i do not wish to switch programs though as i really like jriver. both the sound and ui. i am betting that is what my issue is. are you guys using hqplayer with jriver? than at least i will know it is something else.
  
 Never mind. I did not realize HQPlayer is a media player. Not a tweaking program like Fidelizer. No wonder it conflicts with JRiver installed. MicroRendu works by DLNA in JR but is badly crippled. Really need to run Roon. As far as not seeing USB output device with PSA LanRover I read a lot of people had this issue. Oh well. I am very happy with the sound here anyways. I am sorry I bothered you guys about all this. My bad.
  
 just one thing: for the codex and usb i am stopping at the uptone regen and js-2. i could drive myself crazy both shopping and figuring things out. i would just rather listen to it already. i think i am completely satisfied with the codex setup here going into the ax-5 twenty. i know there is even better sound. i have it downstairs. this is certainly within the realm of reference quality. i really am happy. the lanrover may be better but i could not get it to jive and i am done fiddling. usb is plug n play, ethernet is not. i don't have anything more to do. if i can help anyone with questions in this thread that i can answer i will gladly do so.


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## music_man

Co0dex all the sudden was putting out garbled audio. unplugged ac for 20 sec and all is fine. i hope this is not a sign of things to come.


----------



## ToddRaymond

music_man said:


> Co0dex all the sudden was putting out garbled audio. unplugged ac for 20 sec and all is fine. i hope this is not a sign of things to come.




Crap. Though the culprit may be something upstream....


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## music_man

I do not think It was because I immediately plugged in the qx-5 twenty sitting on the floor up here. i just happened to have it up here last night. it worked fine without shutting down the pc or anything. i really hope the codex is not going to die and that was just a one time thing. it was like complete distortion. i don't mean a little bit but like just digital noise. it is now out of warranty. i will be furious if it dies on me. if that happens i will either ask charlie for a personal favor or just get another dac. the problem is nothing has this performance in even twice the size. a benchmark, teac etc to me is a step way down. so long as you supply clean usb this thing is the cats whiskers for it''s size.


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## yage

How is your Codex out of warranty? The manual states North America customers receive five years.


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## music_man

wow! oh perfect. i thought for some reason it was 90 days. that is very good news. thank you


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## ToddRaymond

They just prefer you fill out and send in the warranty card within the first 30 days, in order register with them. Judging by the wording used in the manual, this is mandatory for the full five years to be valid, but I suspect they'd be willing to work with you to sort all that out.


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## music_man

I did do that so i am cool. i do not think it is even broken. it must have encountered some glitch or errata under very specific circumstances i may never repeat. this. happens with almost any microprocessor intel always states in fine print there may be errata and they are not responsible for it. ever get a bsod or mac stops responding and have no idea why. on a chip with trillions of transistors a lot more common than on one with just mere thousands lol. or i could be completely wrong and it could be a bad xformer,capacitor,diiode...... i really don't think so though. if that is the case it will be completely out of whack within 30 days if the first issue was a day ago. those components i mentioned go down fast. the ess chip with a glitch i might have hit may never happen again to me. especially since it was a stream. well, i hope so. since even though they take care of you, you have to send it in. i have nothing else that will fit there. i did manage to get the codex to what i would say is reference quality but obviously i would put a better dac if i had room. this was just what the doctor ordered at just the right time. the size is perfect for my needs in my bedroom's sitting room. really all the real estate is consumed by a 72" tv. that was stupid of me. i like tv but i love audio. i wish i could put the qx-5 twenty here. i am not even using it right now. i am sure you all feel real sorry for me lol. well, the good news is the codex can really be something. i would say stereophile a+. it all boils down to the usb. for the 100th time their use of that board was a lousy choice. the noise and data go in there and pollute the whole dac. of course it is 30x the price of the codex to fix this top tier. i did not pay for most of it though. just engineering samples given to me by other engineers. some people mind clutter haha. well, the bottom line is if that does not repeat itself within 30 days i can assume the codex is not broken. just have to wait. the whole way that occurred i bet it was data in the ess chip. it was not upstream because i plugged right in the qx-5 twenty and fine. then plugged back codex and still locked up. then unpowered codex 20 sec and fine .
  
 if any one wants to know the usb buffers,lps and cables i think i mentioned but happy to say. just realize if you have to buy it looking at 50 grand. if you can do that, i would say for sure just buy a better dac. i have no choice due to size limitations. i would rather the psu on an amp stand on the carpet with cats all over it than the dac. shaking a dac is not a good thing.
  
 meanwhile, happy it recovered. thank you guys.


----------



## music_man

i was in a stores high end room today. like over 100 grand of stuf. the dac was a codex! it is most certainly great so long as you supply a clean signal. they did not have this issue because they were using a totl aurender. as for my codex i think that was a one time thing. hit the wrong data i guess. just like a pc gets a bsod for no known reason.
 with super clean usb it is very close to the qx-5 twenty. yes, it has a beter chip and all around electronics but they come from the same house. to a lot of people $1,800 is not a cheap dac either. in reality it is but this thing is a little marvel if fed right.


----------



## omchompchomp

That's great to hear. I have a pono player and it sounds really sweet but didn't have enough power for some of my headphones balanced. I now have a Codex with over 500hrs and driving all my headphones balanced it sounds so musical.


----------



## music_man

there are two things about the codex. feed it clean usb and use it balanced. 500 hours is perfect. that is where mine saw no further improvement. the pono is also wonderful. i mean some players are much fancier looking now but cannot beat the sq. how they get that sq in something so small is beyond me and i am an engineer. ayre really knows how to design circuits. step into their full size equipment and the sky is the limit. still, the codex can be reference quality with the right usb signal and cables. you do not even have to go crazy with usb. you can just get an aurender. i know the aurender has a $10 smps but it seems to provide a usb signal like a pc with 5 components inbetween. i prefer using jriver. the screen on the aurender is just to small for me to navigate at my age. it is still a one box marvel so i have to hand it to them. i imagine other non pc music servers as well. getting a pc ready for serious audio is a pita. those that use it to play games are certainly not geting the best audio. fidelizer can fix some of that though.


----------



## ToddRaymond

music_man said:


> [...] silver is not better in my opinion. it just gives a brighter sound if you like that.


 

 I'm curious as to your thoughts on the Audioquest Diamond USB cable you've been using, since its conductors are made using pure silver.

 Also, been meaning to ask, which speakers are you using in your bedroom setup?  (The ones connected to your AX-5 Twenty.)  Thanks!

 I've been contemplating my upgrade path, as funds slowly but surely take shape.  I currently have a V-1xe, and a local guy is selling his K-1xe w/ phono stage.  I haven't heard the newer '5' series stuff since the Twenty upgrade.  It will cost me considerably more cash (and take a couple extra years to come up with the money) to acquire a KX-5 and VX-5 (Twenty), versus going the former flagship route.


----------



## cygnusx

Go listen to the Twenty components.  Ayre Twenty components sound amazing.  If you have the funds, it will be worth it.  I finally got my AX-5 Twenty setup and it's simply amazing.  I haven't tried the AQ Diamond, but I'm using the AQ Coffee from an Aurender to the Ayre Codex and it sounds awesome.  I have no itch to change to the AQ Diamond, then again, I don't have a "dirty" USB problem like @music_man with his PC as the source.


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## music_man

if you are using an aurender you don't really need the diamond. i really like the diamond usb cables. then aq jitterbug>regen powered by js2. i have odin speaker cables and anaconda vx power cords. it all evens out nicely between the copper and silver. if your system is very bright i would not use silver anything. if it is neutral i would mix copper and silver. if it is dark i would use silver speaker cables. plus i use isolation on all my components including floating turntable plinths on the speakers. i use acoustic treatment. the kind with the tall and short squares. the speakers are the sonus faber extrema 2. look on their site on the bottom right under products. under special editions. i have a old rel sub from the richard lord era. i feel the new rels made in china, company sold to investment firms 3 times are very lousy. the closest thing to the old rels is mj acoustics. real mosfet/jfet bipolar amps and pulp cones. none of that class d 1000 watt stuff. the system is completely bastardized by all being on a huge dresser but best i can do. speakers would sound 100% better properly placed on their stands. the stands are in the basement unfortunately. oh, i also have the rel blue cable. only good thing they make now lol. the ax-5 twenty is wonderful if you do not need much power. i especially like the volume control. however the best stereo is the one you can listen to now. not in three years. i understand i was very lucky to get this. i also understand many people have a budget. that is fine. a lot of the cables for one thing are engineering samples and not paid out of pocket.
  
 as i keep saying, feed the codex clean usb and use good balanced cables it will be a refere\nce class device. as i witnessed in a stores high end room. i thought i was crazy to feel this way but apparently not. it is a serious machine if you treat it right. out of the box it is still hi-fi and by no means mid-fi. given that the gap narrowly closed to the qx-5 twenty even though it has a better dac chip and over all (more) and better electronics. it really is along the same lines with more features. if you relish those features it is the one for you. still, the codex properly fed and output is less money in many instances. on a budget i would recommend the iusb3.0 with their upgrade wallwart. in fact that wallwart to the js-2 is a small upgrade by uptones own admission. which is amazing considering the difference in componentry. 
  
 one thing i want to say the speakers are very nice but i find the brake on the rear panel to be rather stupid. it works if for instance you put it too close to a wall but for best performance it should be on all the way. which makes me wonder why they added that on a speaker that is designed to be  a flagship. most people would properly position these. i do have them far enough from the wall to open it all the way at least. you see their measurements but in room in goes down to about 28hz -6db then the sub takes over down to 15hz -6db. their latest sub that can go that low is absolutely huge. another reason i prefer the rel's of yore or now mj acoustics.
  
 one other thing. if you are investing in an ax-5 twenty make sure it can power your speakers. it is an outstanding amp but it's limatation is it's wattage. i would still choose quality over quanty but you will not be playing loud if you have inefficient, demanding speakers.


----------



## latestyle

If anyone is contemplating selling off his/her Codex, pls PM me


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## cygnusx

Look on usaudiomart.com. I think I saw a few being sold.


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## music_man

i don't know who would sell one other than they need the money. 100% honest opinion you have to spend like 5 grand to get better. with high end usb and high end balanced cables maybe you have to spend like 15 grand. it is seriously that good. i can't compete it with the qx-5 twenty because that is much more than just a dac. plus a very big deal ethernet in. so i am by no means saying the codex is "as good". for sound quality you can get them close enough you would have to do a double blind.
 until there is some real upgrade from any manufacturer it is staying here. interestingly i have chord dave a/b right now and vastly prefer the codex. that is biased though because i do not like the chord sound. even mcintosh,bryston,nad,benchmark,mytek etc i will take the codex. if someone is selling one to "upgrade" i would be interested what they feel is an upgrade. of course that can just be personal though. some may hate the codex. in fact i could see how someone might prefer the teac ud-503 which is also right here.


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## latestyle

cygnusx said:


> Look on usaudiomart.com. I think I saw a few being sold.


 
 Thanks! Alas, I JUST missed out on it, was sold for $1150 which is a great deal.


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## latestyle

Codex cognoscenti - any recommendations on balanced headphone cable solution to use the Codex with Sony Z1R? I'm going to try using this combo at my office, where I spend a vast (too vast) amount of time. Thanks!


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## cygnusx

Btw, there is another Codex for sell on audiogon.com. You probably can negotiate the price down a bit. You should be able hear a difference with any decent cable balanced. The pono balanced out is a must. Good luck!


----------



## latestyle

cygnusx said:


> Btw, there is another Codex for sell on audiogon.com. You probably can negotiate the price down a bit. You should be able hear a difference with any decent cable balanced. The pono balanced out is a must. Good luck!


 
 Thanks! I made an offer to the seller, props to you for looking out for me!


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## omchompchomp

I have the Sony/kimber cable from Amazon Japan which has the best price. Yes they will ship to the US. 
https://www.amazon.co.jp/gp/aw/d/B00NW35HYQ/ref=mp_s_a_1_fkmr1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1487623708&sr=8-2-fkmr1&pi=SL75_QL70&keywords=Sony+balanced+cable+z7


latestyle said:


> Codex cognoscenti - any recommendations on balanced headphone cable solution to use the Codex with Sony Z1R? I'm going to try using this combo at my office, where I spend a vast (too vast) amount of time. Thanks!


----------



## latestyle

omchompchomp said:


> I have the Sony/kimber cable from Amazon Japan which has the best price. Yes they will ship to the US.
> https://www.amazon.co.jp/gp/aw/d/B00NW35HYQ/ref=mp_s_a_1_fkmr1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1487623708&sr=8-2-fkmr1&pi=SL75_QL70&keywords=Sony+balanced+cable+z7


 
 Thanks! So Z7 cables work on Z1R?


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## omchompchomp

Yes. I also have the z1r and the screw on 3.5mm are the same. It sounds very detailed yet musical and bassy out of the Codex . 





latestyle said:


> Thanks! So Z7 cables work on Z1R?


----------



## latestyle

omchompchomp said:


> Yes. I also have the z1r and the screw on 3.5mm are the same. It sounds very detailed yet musical and bassy out of the Codex .


 
 Nice, will be getting the cables, thx for the recommendation!


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## omchompchomp

latestyle said:


> Nice, will be getting the cables, thx for the recommendation!


I forgot one problem till I just looked at my system. The recess Codex plug doesn't allow the Sony cable to connect all the way in so I had to get a right angle adapter. So if this bothers you get another cable with smaller barrel. Wish Ayre didn't have those recessed plugs.


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## latestyle

omchompchomp said:


> I forgot one problem till I just looked at my system. The recess Codex plug doesn't allow the Sony cable to connect all the way in so I had to get a right angle adapter. So if this bothers you get another cable with smaller barrel. Wish Ayre didn't have those recessed plugs.


 
 Oh, man, how annoying! Any particular right angle adapter or any one of them will do?


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## omchompchomp

Any 3.5mm to 3.5mm will do. Yeah, I was bummed but I also use it with the Pono and the cable was a great price with the exchange rate so I'm OK with it.


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## music_man

some high end mini phono have like a raised metal part in front of the shell. so it will fit these with a recess. that way you can use a good one. i think oyaide(sp?) makes some. don't know if you want to spend that. i don't use headphones anymore much. never tried the codex or ax-5 twenty phones. luckily almost any balanced will fit in the back. maybe you can use the back with full size xlr? i think it is the same sound. don't know. anyways odin 2 is rather small. on the other hand the anaconda vx power pulls it off the table lol. nice their iec jack is tight. their toslink is a little loose which kind of sucks.


----------



## latestyle

Joined the Codex family, currently burning in with Z1Rs in the office.


----------



## music_man

congrats latestyle. i doubt you will be dissapointed. this is the only 2 grand-ish dac i would buy right now.
  
 what upsets me among other things with ayre is the codex and ax-5 twenty can both do 4x dsd but they have them locked to 2x. i do not expect them to ever offer firmware. for updates,support and press information ayre sucks. they build one heck of a product though. all of their components compete with components costing thousands more. so i can forgive them for their lack of communication.
  
 latestyle, you may want to feed that with a good hub, filter and lps plus good xlr cables. that will bring it from very good to true reference class. if i did that(which i have) and i worked for stereophile, under those circumstances i would rate it a+. they have not rated it afaik but other publications rated it a, just stock.
  
 i am thinking now to put in a 9038 pro. it is pin compatible i bet it does not make much difference though. the sound of a dac is really everything but the chip. in that regard ayre got it right..


----------



## latestyle

music_man said:


> ...
> 
> what upsets me among other things with ayre is the codex and ax-5 twenty can both do 4x dsd but they have them locked to 2x...
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks, music_man! I've been just burning in 24/7 but already it has this bloom to certain recordings that I find very attractive for the types of music I listen to.
  
 I don't have much DSD, mostly redbook and hi-rez PCMs from Linn Records, so not having 4x DSD is no deal killer for me.
  
 A couple questions - you recommend a good hub/filter/lps/XLR cables - can you explain and also recommend me your personal choices? I'm just connecting my work PC/laptop to Codex via Wireworld Starlight Platinum 7 USBs, then out to my Z1R cans (currently thinking of rewiring balanced by Wireworld, to keep things synergistic). Shall I add Regen to the mix? Also don't understand how XLR cable fits into this chain. Plus I thought Codex already has linear power supply built in, but does an outboard LPS make it better? Please let me know if you ever do swap in 9038 Pro and see if there's discernible difference. But I have a good feeling about this DAC/amp as it is; will take it home once it's broken in to compare vs. Yggy.
  
 Apologies for a ton of questions! =D


----------



## music_man

xlr is for using it with an amplifier. the problem is putting noise into the xmos usb receiver. the lps is for something like the regen, not the codex. you want to get clean usb data and power into it. if you search you will find all kinds of things i have written about this. you do not have to get the regen or rur. there are hubs that are very similar for a fraction of the price. add a lps to the hub and you are set. it is the lps that is important. otherwise you can inject the lps directly into the codex with something like aqvox but that does not address the data. an aq jitterbug plus a good hub with a lps will clean and reclock the signal. all hub chips replicate the data but some are more accurate than others. i mean in their timing, phase etc. that is for audio. for a printer or webcam it makes no difference. i would certainly get the cans wired balanced. it makes a huge difference.


----------



## music_man

tbh, a couple days ago i slid in dave on his side without his rack feet. i used stillpoints under him. i am using an aurender. that was the biggest thing i could fit here afaik and i had to stupid put it in on his side so i cannot see his display. anyways the big point here is he is a much different sound than the codex but i would not say he is outright better! now we are talking about like a 15 grand dac that the codex can can compete with! some will say well chord is not good. this is really all a matter of what sound you like. as i said the chip or fpga has very little to do with a dac's sound. so you can just say i like the codex better. not everyone would feel the same of course. ymmv. meanwhile i am not sure i will unplug it all right now. i am severely disabled, why i type no caps and it took me 2 hours to fit in the xlr's and usb. please don't feel bad though. i am just saying even though i would rather the codex back in not looking forward to it. it is very strange to think someone was unable to put a plug in a socket. even to me and i am living with it. anyways the only thing i clearly like better is the loaded select dac with mono power bases. either you guy's think i am nuts or deaf too i bet lol. no, really i just love that ayre sound. i have the qx-5 twenty but hardly use it because i would rather use a separate music server and dac. the ax-5 twenty imparts a lovely sound. i just like ayre like i like grado. matter of preference.  sometimes regardless of preference you can say something is clearly better but, no the codex seems to take all comers. to me at least. well, latestyle i think you made a good choice lol.


----------



## latestyle

Thanks, music_man, you're an inspiration to me, taking the initiative to optimize USB playback despite your ailments! Bravo.
  
 Poked around somewhat among the posts you had up. Seems that you'd recommend StarTech ST7300U3M hub / UpTone JS2 + AQ Jitterbug?


----------



## austinpop

latestyle said:


> Thanks, music_man! I've been just burning in 24/7 but already it has this bloom to certain recordings that I find very attractive for the types of music I listen to.
> 
> I don't have much DSD, mostly redbook and hi-rez PCMs from Linn Records, so not having 4x DSD is no deal killer for me.
> 
> ...


 
  
 You should wait a few days to see what Uptone announces. Alex Crespi (@Superdad) has indicated that he will unveil their new ISO-Regen product this week, which purportedly combines galvanic isolation with USB reclocking. That - powered - by an Uptone LPS-1 - will give you a heck of a combination to isolate yourself from both the noisy PC, but also from ground leakage loops.
  
 I currently use a combination of Intona and Wyred 4 Sound Recovery USB Reclocker to achieve the same, and it makes a huge difference in my system. The LPS-1 PSU in particular can be a game changer, IF it happens to root out a ground leakage loop at the location it's deployed.


----------



## latestyle

austinpop said:


> You should wait a few days to see what Uptone announces. Alex Crespi (@Superdad) has indicated that he will unveil their new ISO-Regen product this week, which purportedly combines galvanic isolation with USB reclocking. That - powered - by an Uptone LPS-1 - will give you a heck of a combination to isolate yourself from both the noisy PC, but also from ground leakage loops.
> 
> I currently use a combination of Intona and Wyred 4 Sound Recovery USB Reclocker to achieve the same, and it makes a huge difference in my system. The LPS-1 PSU in particular can be a game changer, IF it happens to root out a ground leakage loop at the location it's deployed.


 
 Thanks for the heads up! Will definitely wait for the announcement.


----------



## music_man

what is really doing it is the lps. if you can i highly recommend the js-2. i do not really like the rur but it is okay. i am very interested in the regen anouncement. they are going to differentiate these from hubs because right now people can go spend $50 if they know better. any hub chip reclocks but it has to have a good crystal. the 7 port startech i would not recommend as much as the 4 port. plus it is only $25. you then can disable vbus at the aq jb. that sounds very good. seriously though even my dedicated pc did not match the hardware music server with no usb conditioning! before you buy a js-2 you might want to just consider an aurender! i don't know.
  
 thank you for nice words that i had so much trouble. it it seems absurd but my hands don't work. no problem though.


----------



## latestyle

music_man said:


> .. before you buy a js-2 you might want to just consider an aurender! i don't know.


 
 At home, I have the Melco N1A feeding data to Schiit Yggy, but I did consider an Aurender before. I feel like I'm happy enough, used to be one of those hair-splitting audiophiles (especially on the vinyl side) but have since re-prioritized life


----------



## cygnusx

The Melco is more than good. Nice set up. You just need to replace the ****t  with a Codex! Oops did I spell that wrong.


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## latestyle

Haha, well, once run-in, will do a Pepsi Challenge: Codex v. Yggy. But even now, there's a great bloom to Codex playback I really like, and am not accustomed to via ESS Sabre chips. Color me impressed so far!


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## cygnusx

The Codex is best balanced. I noticed a huge difference single ended to balanced. Don't get me wrong it sounds real good single ended but it's at a different level balanced.


----------



## latestyle

Yeah, thanks for your input before on balanced headphone cables. Ordering balanced cables from Wireworld for the Z1Rs. If I ever do move the Codex to home, will go XLR into amp.


----------



## cygnusx

Also, give it a good burn in period 400-500 hours. Best of luck!


----------



## music_man

melco is fine. aurender, melco pretty similar. the yiggy is not even close to the codex. don't mean to be a jerk either. that might even be subjective to some but objective to most. it is like a camaro vs a corvette to be perfectly fair. to be less fair, like a mustang vs a corvette lol.


----------



## latestyle

Haha, I'll do the A-B and report back. There is something weirdly attractive about the density of midrange via Yggy. As you can see from my signature, I'm more of a vintage guy than modern hi-fi...so there's a certain quality of playback I prioritize way more than others (e.g., I can care less about soundstaging/imaging etc.) At any rate, can't wait to pit Yggy vs. Codex!


----------



## austinpop

latestyle said:


> Haha, I'll do the A-B and report back. There is something weirdly attractive about the density of midrange via Yggy. As you can see from my signature, I'm more of a vintage guy than modern hi-fi...so there's a certain quality of playback I prioritize way more than others (e.g., I can care less about soundstaging/imaging etc.) At any rate, can't wait to pit Yggy vs. Codex!


 
  
 Since you've got both, trust your own ears and ignore conjectures.
  
 I recently did this comparison at a friend's, where we pitted my Codex against his Yggy. You can read about it here: http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/anyone-compared-ayre-codex-schiit-yggdrasil-29378/#post633966 Read some of the earlier posts in the thread too.
  
 I cannot stress enough the points @cygnusx already mentioned, and some of my own:

Make sure you match volume levels to within 0.5dB. I know this is impossible to do, other than by ear, with headphones. In my experiment, we were using speakers, and we literally reversed our findings when we matched levels. I used a free app on my iPhone (Decibel 10th), but any SPL meter will work fine.
The Codex really really needs to burn in several hundred hours to sound its best
The Codex is at a whole different level when running balanced - so yes, XLR out to the amp is a must
  
 I know this is a spoiler, but to my ears, the differences between the Yggy and the Codex were extremely subtle. You could be equally happy with either. I think this is generally true with good DACs today. If you hold everything else equal, the DAC differences are rather small. I hear much bigger differences between amps, and of course headphones. For me, DSD is very important, so that ruled out the Yggy.
  
 YMMV.


----------



## latestyle

Nice report! YMMV indeed, it's what makes life and music fun (and worthwhile).


----------



## music_man

indeed, austin. however he might have a thing there. if i preferred vinyl and tubes i might prefer yiggy. even though it is not nearly as competent a dac imo. i feel digital should be digital. not analog by any means. of course there is good digital and bad digital. right now i have dave in place up here still. i swear the codex is just as good. sure, they sound different so if you prefer chord than so be it. signature aside i just feel the codex is at least as good if not better. come on folks, dave is a 15 grannd dac! either chord really messed up or codex is all that. this is not the first time i did this either. the only dac in my home that slaughters the codex is the msb select loaded with dual bases. i think that says an awful lot. i am not kidding around or trying to be a jerk. this is solely my opinion. yes, the msb kills it. but almost everything else including the vivaldi is not too far off. true, i am comparing the codex to six figure dacs. to me it is pretty darn amazing. right now my advice is if you like digital get the codex. provide real good usb power and high end balanced cables. my opinion is you can't beat this until you get into some serious cash. that is,  if you like the sound. even the qx-5 twenty when the codex is set up right is not much better as a dac. the qx-5 twenty offers much more though.


----------



## latestyle

The best digital sound I'd heard - given that I'm more of tubes/vinyl guy - was indeed a MSB system and an old Bow ZZ8 CDP. 

Getting back to the Codex - for some reason when I'm playing a 24/96 file, the Codex display still shows 44 as sample rate. What could I be doing wrong in terms of setting, etc.?


----------



## music_man

i know. if you play a 192 file from pc it reads 44. if you select 192 in your software it reads 192. perhaps it is downsampling it?
  
 also, the older cdps were much better. just like old turntables. both of these things had their heyday. everything is digital now. so with a motionless digital front end they are working on making very expensive music servers and pc's. that is where it is at now. i would be hard pressed to buy a new cdp. luckily dacs are still advancing. since they are a key part of where it is at now.
  
 i hope they introduce a new codex. it is getting a little long in the tooth. oh, it still sounds great but technology is marching on. they may not be looking to step on the qx-5 twenty though. it would be nice to see a 9038 already.
  
 funny, as we look back on vinyl and spinners one day we very well may look back at dacs. just as with the vinyl and spinners, blow the dust off the codex in 30 years and it shall still sound great. perhaps superior to what there is then. to me, things are moving in the wrong direction. away from sound quality and more toward convenience. the beautiful offshoot of this is you can buy lovely equipment used for zilch.
  
 to just keep the codex is fine too. i have said time and again it's sound quality is amazingly in the top tier. i know i have sounded like a broken record about this but i know a bargain when i see one. everyone, go get yourself a codex!


----------



## latestyle

music_man said:


> i know. if you play a 192 file from pc it reads 44. if you select 192 in your software it reads 192. perhaps it is downsampling it?


 
 Hmm, playing via Roon...


----------



## KmanChu

latestyle said:


> Hmm, playing via Roon...



That is strange. I use roon and it reads 192, 96, etc correctly. The only thing I can think of is the max sample rate setting in audio menu may be limiting it back down to 44. Also, it is sometimes good to set another device as the default system sound device just so the OS isn't trying to mess with it.


----------



## latestyle

kmanchu said:


> That is strange. I use roon and it reads 192, 96, etc correctly. The only thing I can think of is the max sample rate setting in audio menu may be limiting it back down to 44. Also, it is sometimes good to set another device as the default system sound device just so the OS isn't trying to mess with it.


 
 thanks KmanChu. I toggled Roon for Exclusive Mode and now it's outputing correctly to Codex.


----------



## music_man

i have asked this elsewhere with no answer. how can you output 32 bit audio to your dac in windows 10? it seems that it does not support it. you have to set windows sound to the highest which is 192/24 for exclusive access. however if you try to playback a file at 32 bits it will simply pop up with an error not supported. can windows 10 in fact support 32 bit audio and if so how?
  
 edit: that is with wasapi. asio will output the highest the dac can handle including 32 bit. however with our consumer asio drivers we cannot adjust the bit rate. say you want to listen to 16. i am used to proifesional daw equipment where you can adjust the bit depth of the asio output.
  
 i find it odd wasapi lets you adjust up to 24 but asio you take what you get. neither is perfect in that regard quite frankly. unless someone knows how you change the bit depth of asio other than in windows mixer. i find it odd windows will not do 32 natively. this is why we use asio for recording but our dac drivers are stripped down versions.


----------



## yage

music_man said:


> i have asked this elsewhere with no answer. how can you output 32 bit audio to your dac in windows 10?


 
  
 My guess is that WASAPI was primarily designed to handle consumer audio formats (which are integer based) and that Microsoft assumed pros would use ASIO for applications which can output floating polnt.


----------



## music_man

yes, asio output automatically plays at the highest bit depth the dac will accept but for consumer asio implementations no way to lower it. in pro applications you can adjust both the playback and recording per channel. however even wasapi will not allow 32 bit. windows does not support 32 bit. asio works around this. it is just a shame you cannot adjust it with consumer level drivers. sometimes i would want to listen to exact redbook quality.  there must be some aftermarket asio drivers that allow adjustment but i have yet to find them. the steinberg client interface will run but with very poor results through tusbasio. i guess they figure for the most part the highest is the best. which most often it is. it is a pain to see what asio drivers will run. i can strip them out of nuendo but they are unlikely to work properly. almost anything will play through tusbasio but most often with very poor results. it was not designed for this. which is mainly recording multi track audio. not playback. so it gets all messed up.


----------



## latestyle

I've a funny issue - either with Roon or jriver, the Codex plays Tidal fine, but as soon as I try to connect my external USB HD that contains my music files to my laptop, Codex stops playing music with "USB" in the display window. Wonder what's going on?


----------



## cygnusx

I'm not an expert but It sounds like something is happening with your USB bus in laptop when you connect multiple devices to the available ports. My suggestion is to try a reboot with all the device connected. If that doesn't work, try using a USB hub. What make and model laptop are you using? I would also check some of the other forums to see if your laptop has know issues with USB.


----------



## latestyle

cygnusx said:


> I'm not an expert but It sounds like something is happening with your USB bus in laptop when you connect multiple devices to the available ports. My suggestion is to try a reboot with all the device connected. If that doesn't work, try using a USB hub. What make and model laptop are you using? I would also check some of the other forums to see if your laptop has know issues with USB.


 
 I think you're right. I'm using Thinkpad X220, which is an older i5, with 16 GB RAM. I have one of those UltraBase stations to which I have the USB drive connected. Just tried rebooting to no avail. Ugh.


----------



## cygnusx

Have you tried connecting directly to the laptop without using the ultra base?


----------



## latestyle

cygnusx said:


> Have you tried connecting directly to the laptop without using the ultra base?


 
 Thanks, that solved it.


----------



## music_man

there is a bug in the asio driver. at least here. it will not take exclusive control. plus wasapi is a astounding difference. i would say not subjective but very easily noticeable. which is a shame because coming from the music industry i prefer asio. either is fine though. so since wasapi is working much better on this i do not feel bad. it is a shame they do not update the drivers though. nonetheless it still sounds as good as it ever did. probably better now that i switched it to wasapi. i do not know if it is my pc or a broken driver to be honest. i cannot see how it could be my pc. it should either work or not. not have a difference in sound and not take exclusive access. strange. anyone else have this issue? i have the same thing on the ax-5 twenty so it is the driver or the pc not the hardware at least.


----------



## frason

Waiting for my Codex to arrive, hopefully by the end of next week. I have a balanced Silver Dragon cable terminated with 2 xlr 3 pins. Can I just buy two generic xlr to 3.5 mm adaptors in order to use it with the balanced out of the Codex?


----------



## cygnusx

Getting two 3.5mm adapters should do the trick.  One word of advise, be patient with the break in time.  The Codex needs 300+ hours to break in.  It will be worth the wait.  Good luck


----------



## austinpop

frason said:


> Waiting for my Codex to arrive, hopefully by the end of next week. I have a balanced Silver Dragon cable terminated with 2 xlr 3 pins. Can I just buy two generic xlr to 3.5 mm adaptors in order to use it with the balanced out of the Codex?



Talk to Drew at Moon Audio. They can either  sell you an adapter, or you can send in your cable for retermination.


----------



## cygnusx

I haven't been active on head-fi for a while, but this new website is horrible.  I can't stand using it.  Very disappointing.


----------



## frason

austinpop said:


> Talk to Drew at Moon Audio. They can either  sell you an adapter, or you can send in your cable for retermination.



Thanks so much for the advice, don't really want to reterminate the cable because I'm using it with other amplifiers as well. Will keep looking for an adapter.


----------



## Restia

frason said:


> Waiting for my Codex to arrive, hopefully by the end of next week. I have a balanced Silver Dragon cable terminated with 2 xlr 3 pins. Can I just buy two generic xlr to 3.5 mm adaptors in order to use it with the balanced out of the Codex?


Could you write something about your experience with codex?


----------



## ChaseM

Hi all, new Codex owner here. Just thought i'd jump in and say hey and give a few impressions. 

My chain is MacBook running Roon -> Cardas Clear USB -> Ayre Codex -> Cardas Clear Interconnects -> Violectric V281 -> LCD-4's balanced with a silver dragon cable. 

I had a chance to audition a broken in unit at home against my 2qute. I was completely satisfied with the 2qute at that point and wasn't seriously in the market for a new dac. After comparing them against each other they aren't very comparable units. The sound of the 2qute is thick and musical but misses out on a lot of detail when compared to the codex. The codex is extraordinarily detailed, especially in the presence area of cymbals. Cymbals in particular are buried deep when you are listening to the 2qute, with the Codex they are present but in no way glaring or in front of the mix. They were somewhat comparable in the mids with the Codex seeming to sound a bit more realistic with male vocals, but really thats nitpicking. They are both great in that area. The bass is presented very differently, the 2qute has some emphasis placed on mid bass, with a nice bloom present. This is not the case with the Codex, it's all very natural and in no way exaggerated. Its just right for me. The Codex integrates perfectly in my system. 

I'm super happy with the Codex at this point. I just got my new unit home. Now for the long...long burn in process.


----------



## frason

Restia said:


> Could you write something about your experience with codex?



I wish I could! Apparently there has been some delay from Ayre...still waiting for mine to arrive...

Still wondering if I can use two not expensive XLR 3 pins female to 3.5mm male to convert my balanced cables terminated with dual xlr


----------



## ChaseM

frason said:


> I wish I could! Apparently there has been some delay from Ayre...still waiting for mine to arrive...
> 
> Still wondering if I can use two not expensive XLR 3 pins female to 3.5mm male to convert my balanced cables terminated with dual xlr



That should work just fine.


----------



## bmoregnr

Is anyone using this with a DAP as the source?  Something like a Fiio X5iii maybe. Everything I read seems to suggest maybe you need to use a computer with drivers so I was just curious if anyone had DAP experience with it.


----------



## ChaseM

bmoregnr said:


> Is anyone using this with a DAP as the source?  Something like a Fiio X5iii maybe. Everything I read seems to suggest maybe you need to use a computer with drivers so I was just curious if anyone had DAP experience with it.



I haven't tried it with a DAP as the source. But, i have tried hooking it to my iPhone with the camera connection kit and that won't work. So i'm guessing it won't work with a dap. But i'm not 100% sure.


----------



## jrfmd

frason said:


> Waiting for my Codex to arrive, hopefully by the end of next week. I have a balanced Silver Dragon cable terminated with 2 xlr 3 pins. Can I just buy two generic xlr to 3.5 mm adaptors in order to use it with the balanced out of the Codex?


you can use the xlr pins on the back of the codex by getting a female to female xlr adapter (I assume your cable has male xlr pins at the termination.
when you use the codex in preamp mode (volume control active) the circuits are the same (according to codex) but the cable is much more secure in the back than in the 3.5 mm sockets in the front and banging into one of the cables doesn't fool the codex into thinking you've changed your headphones and going into low volume mode to "protect your ears"
codex sounds much better balanced than single ended
Jeff


----------



## jrfmd

jrfmd said:


> you can use the xlr pins on the back of the codex by getting a female to female xlr adapter (I assume your cable has male xlr pins at the termination.
> when you use the codex in preamp mode (volume control active) the circuits are the same (according to codex) but the cable is much more secure in the back than in the 3.5 mm sockets in the front and banging into one of the cables doesn't fool the codex into thinking you've changed your headphones and going into low volume mode to "protect your ears"
> codex sounds much better balanced than single ended
> Jeff


btw--if you decide you like the back xlr outlets you should eliminate the adapter by reterminating the cables -- the adapters I tried could all be "heard" in the chain
jrf


----------



## music_man

what Ayre does not want you to know.  The codex actually has an akm chip that should blow away the qx-5 twenty. it can do dsd 2048 but i am not going to try to start reverse engineering the codex. it has a spartan fpga that holds ayre's filter curve since the akm chip is not programmable like the ess chips. the filter is actually what is important so consider this an fpga based dac in fact. it has an xmos usb receiver and it is galvanically isolated before the chip. all in all you are going to find this competing with just about anything at any price so long as you enjoy the sound. considering what they put into it, it is an absolute steal. in essence it should sound better than the qx-5 twenty and ayre certainly does not want us to know that. however the qx-5 twenty is much more than just a dac if you wish for such a device. i am feeding the totl aurender into the codex and feel it is better than the qx-5 twenty which i also own. you may be thinking this a troll post. see for yourself that i do not even know how they can sell this for less than $5000. you will see the picture but i did the electronic wizardry to figure out what is what as i just explained.


----------



## cygnusx

That's interesting since it was always my understanding that the Codex used the ESS ES9018K2M chipset. I thought I remember reading somewhere that they used the AKM in some early demo models but switch to ESS for production.


----------



## music_man

everyone just speculated it was a ess. actually for all practical purposes it is an fpga. anyways that akm is better than the 9018 or 9038pro even. that is an early unit but production. i kind of doubt they later changed to the 9018 since it would be a major rework of the pcb. you can plainly see the akm,fpga and xmos.


----------



## music_man (Jul 8, 2017)

edit: i really apologize. the akm is a spdif receiver. you can see the ess indeed. however the filter curve being on the fpga is still really making it fpga based as that is what is so special about ayre's sound signature. of course i am not entirely sure about that either but what else would the fpga be doing there? it is very expensive and they would not use it for no good reason. still, i could be entirely wrong about that as well. you guy's look for yourselves.

a newer unit.you can plainly see the akm and fpga. i do not know why ayre limits the dsd on their units. the qx-5 twenty is lower than the codex. perhaps because the akm can go considerably higher than the ess. i feel it is a better sounding chip than the 9038pro let alone the 9018k2m. i hope these pics are appreciated here and not viewed as spam.


----------



## cygnusx

Actually to correct myself in the audio stream article, they mention that Ayre was testing a Burr-Brown chipset.  https://www.audiostream.com/content/ayre-acoustics-codex-usb-dac-headphone-amp-digital-preamp.  Every other article reference the ESS chipset.  It funny that everybody got it that wrong.  I wondering why everybody was so wrong.  Even Stereophile's review says ESS.  https://www.stereophile.com/content/ayre-acoustics-codex-da-headphone-amplifier


----------



## music_man

no,no sorry i made a huge mistake read the edit at the top of all the pics. it is indeed a ess. the akm is a spdif receiver. what i do like is look at the usb setup. it basically has an intona built in. that looks pretty obvious. i can't believe i mistook the chips. i am sorry about that. still, the sound signature "should" be on the fpga and not so much the dac chip but that is still a good chip.the usb also has xmos so i would not worry about usb cleaning devices with this. they may change the sound to your liking but can only really degrade it. ayre did a knock out job with this. no wonder the case is so cheap, look what is inside! i am really sorry about the confusion regarding the dac chip. this is not exactly a simple circuit but still, my bad.


----------



## ChaseM

music_man said:


> no,no sorry i made a huge mistake read the edit at the top of all the pics. it is indeed a ess. the akm is a spdif receiver. what i do like is look at the usb setup. it basically has an intona built in. that looks pretty obvious. i can't believe i mistook the chips. i am sorry about that. still, the sound signature "should" be on the fpga and not so much the dac chip but that is still a good chip.the usb also has xmos so i would not worry about usb cleaning devices with this. they may change the sound to your liking but can only really degrade it. ayre did a knock out job with this. no wonder the case is so cheap, look what is inside! i am really sorry about the confusion regarding the dac chip. this is not exactly a simple circuit but still, my bad.



music_man, great post! Appreciate it. I'm liking my Codex more everyday.


----------



## music_man

It is the finest DAC it's size period. Even as good s much largr ones in the $10K range. They kind of stepped on their own feet but the QX-5 is really a different market so they know what they are doing. I am glad you like the post!

The latest version of Windows 10 has built in Ayre drivers that are far superor to the Streamlength but only Wasapi. Which is now what we should be using anyways. So if you get the latest windows 10 offline installer ISO, run all updates you will have even better sound than you do now. Mac I don't know anything about.

I am using a large amount of expensive USB decrapification. According to Ayre it only serves to degrade the sound. Which may very well be true but I like the sound. Although the past week I have been using the QX-5 in this room just to play with it. The difference in SQ is closer than you might think but of course YMMV.

I just realized this took 45 minutes to type because I decided to use punctuation. For those that do not know I have Parkinson's which is why I do not ordinarily do that. Don't worry though, I am good.


----------



## ChaseM

music_man said:


> It is the finest DAC it's size period. Even as good s much largr ones in the $10K range. They kind of stepped on their own feet but the QX-5 is really a different market so they know what they are doing. I am glad you like the post!
> 
> The latest version of Windows 10 has built in Ayre drivers that are far superor to the Streamlength but only Wasapi. Which is now what we should be using anyways. So if you get the latest windows 10 offline installer ISO, run all updates you will have even better sound than you do now. Mac I don't know anything about.
> 
> ...



I've been kind of curious about the QX-5, as the next step I want to make in my system is to add a server. I'm leaning towards an Antipodes right now though. Right now i'm running Roon on a MacBook Pro.

I've been running through a bunch of USB decrapification stuff as well. I just removed it all a couple days ago and I feel that the sound quality is better with a good quality USB cable running directly from my MacBook Pro to the Codex. YMMV.

Type however you need to. Knowledge is knowledge no matter how it is conveyed!

Chase


----------



## music_man

Ayre are very smart. I will give them that and a lot more. If they said to just use a good cable directly and you concur the same I must go try this. It has been so long but I should notice even better now. I figured they had all that stuff, why not throw it on. I am using the QX-5 right now. It is not vastly better than the Codex. It is somewhat different sounding and does other things of course. The Codex can infact "hang" with the QX-5. For it's size what you see in the pictures is nothing short of amazing. It is not a Pono at all. I do not Think the Antipodes DX is as good as the Codex. If you like the Codex, want a marginal upgrade(to my ears) and a host of other features get the QX_5. Especially if you like the Codex. The Antipodes is less than half the price of the QX-5 however. If you really want to be in a different world you are looking at MSB or DCS IMO. I understand the price might be an issue. If you can spend for the QX-5 I would get it coming from a Codex. Doesn't sound vastly better but it is indeed somewhat better plus offers a host of other features. You could keep the Codex and get an Aurender or Melco. The TOTL Aurender I have here into the QX-5 or anything really is much better than the PC.

Now I need some help please. The latest version of windows has codex drivers that are far superior to the terribly outdated streamlength. being windows it only has wasapi of course. which with windows should be better. it is. I just want to try the asio dll out of the streamlength package or foo or whatever but asio4all is not real asio. so I need to know where you put it in jriver 23 so it will recognize it. I cannot figure out where it is supposed to go but I remember I once knew this. anyone know?


----------



## music_man (Jul 20, 2017)

ayre are right about everything they say. they now their products. well, perhaps not the guy on the phone but he is getting his info from the engineers. so there is this thread I am sure you all know where they put 20 things in the usb chain. I do not know about their dacs but ayre was correct as usual. took a 3m cardas clear hs they recommended and nothing else. lo and behold the qx and the codex were both a good deal better. it is like people that put octane booster to make their car go faster but all it does is make the engine ping. I got the asio driver working. it was complex involving programming so I cannot explain it here. then, it turns out I prefer wasapi. if you are using the latest win10 I would refrain from installing the very dated 1.26 streamlength driver. it will just mess up your os. I can get many asio drivers but to use them with jriver takes some know how. I am not even bothering. wasapi and the cardas cable into the qx5 which is somewhat better than the outstanding codex sounds very nice for my bedroom system. you will have to spend a crazy amount to get better so long as this is your sound. don't feel bad if you can only get the codex. as a dac,imo it is 80% of the qx5. to me 20% is nitpicking for the price difference if it is going to bankrupt you. if not go for the qx-5. it is lovely. it is not the best dac in the world but it is up there. one thing I like about the qx5 is it does not need bus power full of noise but in the codex the usb is isolated just like an intona. look at the pics. the board is split. so I do not really hear anything bad from the codex and I am sure that is why. using decrapifiers will cause the sq to decline according to ayre and to me they are correct. ymmv.

edit, I just realized the same pics got posted like 5 times each. I do not know how that happened. my apologies for that. at least you all have the first pics of it's guts.

edit: I also wanted to add do not use any quality usb 2.0 dac with anything in the chain from usb 3.0,3.1. especially do not use a usb 3.0,3.1 port on the host. ifi's equipment will serve these no justice either, being usb 3.0. usb 3.0 has more noise in the audio spectrum due to the increased operating frequency and frequency of the clock. if you want to do anything get the sotm usb and the 5mhz clock. that could help as clocks on motherboards for 2.0 tend to be around 23-25mhz. this serves to lower the noise floor. I have it but have not tried it with ayre. that is the real improvement you can make perhaps. these decrapifiers just add unwanted sound for the most part. you do not need the bandwidth. 480mbps is faster than anything any dac supports currently. interesting that psa/icron lanrover is 1gb and can only handle dsd 128. ayre is locked at that anyways but for the future I see that as a waste of $600. I do not know why the qx5 is locked at dsd128. it can do 2048!


----------



## bmoregnr (Jul 23, 2017)

I am considering getting one of these with some Focal powered monitors.  I have not paid attention to xlr cables in a long time; the Focal are Pin 1-Ground, 2-Hot, 3-Cold.  I couldn't find any info on the Codex, but is that the same scheme?  I assume a standard cable would be that way as well?  The Focal says their XLR is +10k ohms with an input sensitivity of +4dbu; I am not sure what that means as far as connections but hope it is in the ballpark.

Is there anything else I should be watching out for?  I have a mac mini late 2014, USB 3 slots, and already have an Audioquest USB-A to B cable which I am pretty sure is USB 2; I can't think of any issues but then there always seems to be something I overlooked so figured some users could help point them out.


----------



## music_man

all that is industry standard. it is fine. I would spend at least $250 on a 1m cable. longer, minimum of $100 for each extra meter. as a rule of thumb. it will work fine with he focals. they are pretty good too.
mac I know nothing but it does work on mac for sure. I would not use iTunes. get a good player. I think some as low as $50.


----------



## bmoregnr

music_man said:


> all that is industry standard. it is fine. I would spend at least $250 on a 1m cable. longer, minimum of $100 for each extra meter. as a rule of thumb. it will work fine with he focals. they are pretty good too.
> mac I know nothing but it does work on mac for sure. I would not use iTunes. get a good player. I think some as low as $50.


Thanks very much.  I plan to use a better player in the short term but am thinking of getting into the whole microRendu thing to feed the Codex bypassing the computer, but first steps first.  I have always liked the Cardas cables I have had and I might go with their XLRs.


----------



## ChaseM

bmoregnr said:


> Thanks very much.  I plan to use a better player in the short term but am thinking of getting into the whole microRendu thing to feed the Codex bypassing the computer, but first steps first.  I have always liked the Cardas cables I have had and I might go with their XLRs.



I'm running a Cardas Clear USB and Cardas Clear Interconnects out of my Codex into a KGSSHV Carbon. I went through a few interconnects before settling on the Cardas. I highly recommend them.


----------



## bmoregnr

Odd question I know, but what is the stock power cord with the Codex. Is Linetek something?  Although from authorized dealer I just want to make sure I got the right one. That and a usb cable was it.


----------



## ChaseM

bmoregnr said:


> Odd question I know, but what is the stock power cord with the Codex. Is Linetek something?  Although from authorized dealer I just want to make sure I got the right one. That and a usb cable was it.



Not sure of the brand. I will check when I get home Monday. But it's just a generic power cord. Nothing special. Same with the USB. The box on the one I got was sealed in plastic. 

Also, make sure yours came with the warranty card to send in. Sending in that card is the only way to get the full 5 year warranty.


----------



## bmoregnr

I got up and running with the Codex and Focal Shape 50s and it is a nice match. That click at the sample rate change is no joke though, it makes quite the pop, and it seems mute can't stop it.


----------



## cygnusx

Congrats!   I spoke to Ayre a few years back about the popping sound when changing sampling rates and they basically told me that there was nothing that could be done. We just have to deal with it.  It's one the cons we have to live with. The good thing is that the overall sound and value is still worth it.


----------



## ChaseM (Aug 6, 2017)

cygnusx said:


> Congrats!   I spoke to Ayre a few years back about the popping sound when changing sampling rates and they basically told me that there was nothing that could be done. We just have to deal with it.  It's one the cons we have to live with. The good thing is that the overall sound and value is still worth it.



Is the popping noise limited to when the dac is used as an amp? I use mine as a dac and haven't had any popping when changing sampling rates. And I go through tons of playlists on Roon that switch sampling rates nearly every song.

Edit: just for clarity sake I'm running it MacBook running Roon > Cardas Clear USB > Codex > Cardas Clear Balanced Interconnects > KGSSHV Carbon


----------



## cygnusx

No it also happens when using it as a standalone DAC.  I experimented with both settings.   As long you don't keep flipping through songs in the middle of them, it's not too bad.  If you let it play through song lists, it's not too bad.


----------



## ChaseM

cygnusx said:


> No it also happens when using it as a standalone DAC.  I experimented with both settings.   As long you don't keep flipping through songs in the middle of them, it's not too bad.  If you let it play through song lists, it's not too bad.



Hmm, interesting. I'll have to do some critical listening to try to discern exactly what your talking about. I haven't specifically listened for it. But in the 3 months I've had the Codex I haven't noticed it.


----------



## cygnusx

If you listen to mainly PCM files, it seems to be pretty good.  If you start mixing PCM files with different rates with DSD files, then you may hear something.  Everybody's mileage seems to be different, I'm sure the source makes a difference as well.


----------



## cygnusx

bmoregnr said:


> Odd question I know, but what is the stock power cord with the Codex. Is Linetek something?  Although from authorized dealer I just want to make sure I got the right one. That and a usb cable was it.


I'm not sure about the usb cable but some users on computer audiophile were saying that Ayre uses volex power cables.


----------



## ChaseM

cygnusx said:


> If you listen to mainly PCM files, it seems to be pretty good.  If you start mixing PCM files with different rates with DSD files, then you may hear something.  Everybody's mileage seems to be different, I'm sure the source makes a difference as well.



I just spent a fairly good amount of time switching between sampling rates. This included going between DSD and PCM multiple times. I even pushed the volume up to listen for anything. I can't hear anything. No popping or strangeness at all. 

Weird, why would some units show symptoms and others not?


----------



## cygnusx

Curious...what revision version are you running? I'm running 1.3.  Good for you .  Honestly, as good as the Codex is I've upgraded to a discrete R2R ladder DAC and it's a significant improvement especially for pcm files.   I'm keeping the Codex as a headphone amp/DAC but  it's no longer in my main system.


----------



## ChaseM

cygnusx said:


> Curious...what revision version are you running? I'm running 1.3.  Good for you .  Honestly, as good as the Codex is I've upgraded to a discrete R2R ladder DAC and it's a significant improvement especially for pcm files.   I'm keeping the Codex as a headphone amp/DAC but  it's no longer in my main system.



I'm also running 1.3


----------



## cygnusx

I wouldn't sweat it.  Just enjoy it since you don't have this issue.  I suspect the Codex doesn't like my source feeding the music. In any case, I've wasted enough time on it.


----------



## bmoregnr

When you guys say 1.3 is that a Codex update?  I wasn't aware there was one. I was playing around with changing rates with the mac midi section as well as JRiver and sometimes it's silent and other times not; I'm thinking is is more a reaction with the powered monitors.


----------



## music_man

no popping if you add silence on track change. I also highly recommend cardas but the hs. the clear is ayre's reference. I would also get a nice power cord and conditioning with avr,balanced power or best battery. an online ups from tripp is not too expensive. dirt cheap used but you will probably need a battery. just make sure it is online, true sinewave. better than any power conditioner period imo. I have been running the qx5. there is only a minor upgrade in the dac sound regardless of what ayre says but I enjoy the other features. they have their equipment crippled. the chip in the qx5 can do dsd 2048. it is limited to 128. bs for a 14 grand unit. even so short of the msb select downstairs it is my favorite dac. I know 14 grand might be a lot but better than over 100 grand with power bases!


----------



## bmoregnr

bmoregnr said:


> I got up and running with the Codex and Focal Shape 50s and it is a nice match. That click at the sample rate change is no joke though, it makes quite the pop, and it seems mute can't stop it.


I wanted to report back since it probably seemed like I was jumping on this issue, that for USB I am now feeding the Codex with the SOTM sms-200 and it is playing much much nicer on the sample rate change front where I am getting just a faint click now; much as would be expected.  My output from the mac is via optical and it is also liking the sample rate changes better now with just a small click.  Everything is sounding great and I really love the Codex with hopefully more benefits ahead as everything settles in more over time.


----------



## alcarvalho

I have my Codex for almost 2 years and since a few weeks or months ago it stopped working when playing Tidal HiFi tunes as source with exclusive mode enabled, connected to my computer through USB. I have a MacBook Pro Retina 15", with latest Sierra 10.12.6 (16G29). I have tried connecting it directly to my computer or through an Apple Thunderbolt Display.

It works with Tidal Master songs, though. Inspecting the configuration options on Audio MIDI Setup, it's only allowing me to configure the sample rate but bit depth is fixed to 24-bit Integer.

Both of these things make me suspect that it's the lack of being able to select 16-bit depth that's causing the problems with Tidal HiFi tunes. I just hear noises when playing those.

Has anyone else had this problem?


----------



## ToddRaymond

RIP Charles Hansen


----------



## DoctaCosmos

Yes very unfortunate


----------



## moemoney

Turdski said:


> RIP Charles Hansen


----------



## Uri Cohen

Ordered the Codex on Friday, will take about 3-4 weeks for me to get it.  I demo the unit at home for three days (the unit was fully break-in).  Running Codex RCA out to the Woo Audio WA6-SE to Grado GS2000e was so musical that it made music that I don't like musical.  The Sing-End Amp of the Codex is good but not great.  Balanced will be best however I was planning to use my tube amp for my main amp.  If you are planning to get the Codex as DAC only RCA out, then you are still doing good.  Balance is preferred but don't feel back to use it DAC only via RCA out.


----------



## itsikhefez

Did anyone try upgrading the fuse inside the Codex? What rating is it ?


----------



## DoctaCosmos

Anyone use a codex and utopia?  Just a random though figured it’d be a great pairing


----------



## tufundra

Hey Docta Cosmos I am listening to that combo as I type. I think this is a excellent combo. I love Ayre Acoustics Codex with my k812’s also. I think the Codex is great in balanced mode with moderately efficient dynamic headphones. I have a a more expensive dac and headphone amp separates and don’t really here a advantage. The Codex always calls me back with it sound and pre amp capabilities with my def tech mythos stl’s also. I have tried many other dac amp combos that are supposed to sound better but still haven’t found one that as a package sounds better than my Codex, Chord Hugo TT, Questyle etc.


----------



## DoctaCosmos

I’ve heard both the codex and the Hugo TT and while different styles I can’t believe you find the codex to be better than your TT!  Not saying you’re wrong but would def like to hear it for longer session with more heapshones


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## tufundra

I don’t have a tt I just heard it at the audio store. I think for the price the Codex is more bang for the buck. I listened the hugo tt didn’t do anything to make me want to buy it.


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## DoctaCosmos

Listening using your utopias or other headphones?  The chord sound is a very distinct one however I’ve found some headphones dont morph themselves to it.  An example the Elear and the aeon flow plugged into a mojo make for a remarkable classic sound that while good isn’t the unorthodox visual scape the chord sound can deliver.  In fact I’d argue the mojo would be a better bag for buck compared to the codex.  However, scoot the mojo aside and bring in the Hugo2 and the aeon completely transforms to a different headphone with an ethereal visual presentation with absolutely magical microdynamics and details that only add to the musical Rembrandt portrayed.  The Elear on the other hand, still sounds almost exactly like it did with the mojo.   Now Im not saying the utopia is incapable of scaling up with equipment rather wondering if something In the similar design of the driver keeps it from opening up


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## Uri Cohen

Still waiting on my Codex to arrive to my local dealer.  I was thinking about running my headphones via four pin XLR to the Ayre dual-mono balance 3.5mm connectors.  Should be cheap to get this adapter made from Moon-Audio and use the standard XLR cables that I have.


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## austinpop

itsikhefez said:


> Did anyone try upgrading the fuse inside the Codex? What rating is it ?



Did you ever get an answer to this? Does the Codex even have a fuse inside? It would be interesting to replace it with a Synergistic Blue or some such.


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## music_man

I was very sorry about Charlie. I knew him. You never know when it is your last day so make the most of every one.

I find the codex better than my Dave. So there you go. The qx-5 slaughters the Dave. I would not set my sights as low as the Hugo. The codex will kill it imo. Forget the fuse. It is not in the audio path and upgrading it in those cases should do absolutely nothing.


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## music_man

replaced input transformer with r core, all new nwi caps and Vishay resisters, lundahl output transformers, oil/paper output caps musicap, output opamps replaced w/bipolar jfets, replaced crystals with piggyback femto, replaced oscillator, upgraded fuse, all occ silver wire, few other things. warranty over! it was anyways prompting me to do this. it was a very solid dac even in 2018 with 9038pro. now, it walks on the qx-5 twenty. I have them both right here. I have said many times that a chip dac the sound is not so much the dac chip but everything else. that is why you see dacs with the same chip for $ and $$$$$


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## austinpop

music_man said:


> replaced input transformer with r core, all new nwi caps and Vishay resisters, lundahl output transformers, oil/paper output caps musicap, output opamps replaced w/bipolar jfets, replaced crystals with piggyback femto, replaced oscillator, upgraded fuse, all occ silver wire, few other things. warranty over! it was anyways prompting me to do this. it was a very solid dac even in 2018 with 9038pro. now, it walks on the qx-5 twenty. I have them both right here. I have said many times that a chip dac the sound is not so much the dac chip but everything else. that is why you see dacs with the same chip for $ and $$$$$



I’m intrigued, @music_man.

Did you have someone do these mods for you? I’d be interested to find out more. How much did it cost?


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## cygnusx

@austinpop , I found some pictures...looks like there is a fuse inside. 
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/ayre-acoustics-codex-dac-headphone-amp.750809/page-53


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## music_man

I did in fact. I was a very good electronic/sound engineer got Parkinson's. buddy so charged me $650. He is not in the business of doing that just a big favor. I laid it all out, watched he soldered. I imagine if someone like modwright did this it could be over a grand. Unfortunately I did not have a camera. It really closed the gap on the QX-5 Twenty though. The dac chip is only like 15-20% of the sound and that can even be overcome at some point with better components everywhere else. That is why I hate when people compare "dacs" solely based on their converter. I really wish there was something like $6-$10k this size but short of that I will live with this. this has to break in all over again but not the 600 hours. I think 150-200h should do it. in fact I am already close on 24/7 playing.  it was a very good amp even for the $2,000 now obviously they had the balls to raise it this old. now, it is probably 3x as good as it was. it is no msb or dcs but be real it is still the best thing it's size period I would gather. even stock nothing is that size. amazingly there is plenty of room in there. now it is stuffed lol. which may not be good with the heat but used the highest temp caps except the musicaps at the back they do not make those high heat. it took 5 minutes to hear a big difference I am sure get to 200 hours it is nice. I just wish there was a great r2r this size. what we could not do was reprogram the curve and in ayre's case I doubt we would want to anyways. I could have put in a 9028 but not even worth it because of what I just said. oh, it most certainly has a fuse. ayre told me it is not in the audio path but it is indeed. tech support and engineers often do not talk. I don't think I can do better this size but if I ever can I certainly will. I mean this will kill a dac3 I have a lot of experience with. would not record with this though. you need something you can really predict good or bad does not even matter in recording. for control, not mastering I mean.


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## itsikhefez

Hey all, 
I have recently replaced my Bryston BHA-1 and BDA-2 with the Codex and I have to say I am quite happy. It does not have as much power as the BHA-1, but the sound is great in balanced mode.
I was wondering which headphones people here prefer with the Codex?
I'm currently using HD700 which I like overall, but am wondering if anything else pairs better?
I tried Grado SR-225e and didn't like them too much (with the Codex).. The HD700 are better in every way for me (they are also likely benefiting from being balanced).

In the past, I had an HD650, DT880 and DT990 but not with the Codex, and was thinking of giving the HD650's another try.


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## music_man

I never plug headphones into any dac. Since a good dedicated headamp is almost always much better. I understand price constraints however. This having balanced option is not bad. Still, the headamp in a dac is always an after thought pretty much. if you just got a $300 headamp I bet it is better. I did not touch the headamp because I use this as a dac, which is what it is. First and foremost. 

That being said, I was itching to try the directstream now that it is all grown up. I had one in like 2014-15.  I borrowed a friends this morning so it is broken in and I do not have to buy it for no reason. I can certainly say "my" codex sounds markedly better. I do not know if a stock codex does or if it was gutting the thing unfortunately. If it is better stock that is amazing. Well maybe because price went up to $2,000 and I previously thought it beat things like the bda-3 and dac3 among others. This proves my point 90% of the sound is not the converter. Did not even bother to pop in a 9028 pin compatible because I know there is little gain to be had. any dac built after 2011 if it is delta-sigma or anytime if it is nos,r2r will be as good as anything new in it's class mostly. If you go from a $200 dac to a $20,000 dac that is not a side grade but obviously an upgrade then. even a $20,000 dac from 1991 will beat a $200 dac from 2018 usually. It is just about everything other than the converter. especially if it is delta-sigma. the converters thd,snr has little bearing on the whole unit either. anyways over 105 it does not even matter and they are getting over 140 dynamic range now. like getting an intel i9.90% of people will use 5% of that cpu. I was just mentioning this because I wonder if it is better than the directstream stock. than who cares about the headamp, it is worth 2 grand all day. I never tried the amp tbh so I do not know how good it is. it is on the outputs and not opamps so it may indeed be quite good too. making this thing a further value. with everything else we did I mentioned we replaced the outputs with transformer coupled bipolar jfets and high end bigger caps. so I might want to listen to the amp now. even stock I imagine it is better than most but bet a $300 amp would beat it. could be wrong. 

grados take a lot more oomph than the hd700-800-s. dt-990 easy to drive too. it probably does not have enough power to drive grados good. I really like the z1r with the axios silver cable but that is about 5 grand. then you really want an amp and not a $300 one either. I find oddly those run better se. I like the 650's better than the 700 but that is just me.

I am tired of upgrading dacs and I have a handful of them. like new computer hardware every 8 months. it is a waste since it is hardly the converter at this point. be it a chip or software on a fpga. until there is some radical departure in architecture. you will notice a cheap Chinese dac with 2x 9038pro does not sound as the codex. my point.  I guess at some point be happy with what we have on hand or if not bankrupt it will drive us nuts. I would stop when you are satisfied with the sound. 

I would honestly get a little amp before new headphones but I may be wrong. having never even listened to it. balanced can make a big difference especially with sennheisers. lower end grados are not as picky as long as they have enough power. that is usually high end amps though. if I did that then get the ps2ke. sorry about your wallet


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## itsikhefez

Thanks for the input music_man.
I previously had a Creek OBH-11, Musical Fidelity V-CAN (which I modded quite a bit, new caps, op amp, volume pot) which sounded pretty good. I also had a Lehmann BCL and the Bryston BHA-1.
I didn't have them side-by-side with the Codex, but I don't find the Codex lacking vs. my previous Bryston setup (although maybe the DAC in the Codex is doing the heavy lifting).
Also, the Codex is connected to Genelec monitors via XLR, so if I were to add a separate head amp, I would need to use SE. I kind of like the idea of less cables and keeping everything balanced.

I had the HD650's with the Lehmann which I generally liked, but at the time I didn't find the setup exciting (I was using a PS Audio Nuwave DSD DAC). I had the DT-990 after that which I suited me better.
But now with the Codex, I'm thinking that maybe I'll like the HD650 better than before, especially as I've never tried them balanced.


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## Uri Cohen

The Single-Ended Headphone out of the Codex is in my opinion flat out horrible.  I was using the GS2000e, SR225es and my Fiio F9 SE IEM into the Single-Ended input.  For starters there weren't enough power to drive these headphones/IEM nicely.  It also wasn't dynamic and just dull.  

Now, running the headphones via Balanced Input into the Codex is a 180 degree turn.  A lot of power for my LCD2C and the Clears, very dynamic and musical.  If you are planning to use Single-Ended connection directly into the Codex, you are wasting your time.  However, if you only have Single-Ended headphones, you must get a separate headphone amp for that connection.  If you have headphones where you can easily swap cables, get audio cables from Surf Cables that works with the Codex Balanced Input.


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## music_man

I take it you do not observe Passover lol. That's okay the President didn't go to Seder either and half his family is Jewish HAHA. Well, I guess now I don't either. I do not want to give away who I am though as I am pretty well known. That is the beauty of the Internet, EH?

Man good choice Genelec. In the studio the DeFacto standard. By all means. I do not know why more Audiophiles have not embraced them. Benchmark Media worked there way in the door. In fact more Audiophiles know Benchmark from Dac1-2-3 than the Codex I assume. 

You are correct though. You want the Monitors on balanced. Do not even think of a switch box! That is where bigger dacs come in then and $$$. I bet the Modded Vcan would have beat it in SE for sure. Mine 5 people now agree it is noticeably nicer than the Directstream with bridge II. I wonder if it is stock or if it is what we did to it. If stock, man this thing is killer than. That is a 7 Grand DAC.

Yes because here, Bal. has twice the current not summed as output is stereo and it is on the output. Not an OP-Amp. That is exactly it cannot drive Grado's. Even my big amp I built can put out 35WPC and of course the Grado's take more gain than the Utopia's I just got. Or the Sony's. Anything Beyer should be easy on it. The thing is yes it is a pretty good amp but not competing with several Grand amps either. However I know stock the DAC will compete with the previous generation of 5 Grand units. Modding it perhaps brought it back to the forefront but did not even touch the ES9018K2m. Other than better regulation and clock. It is a good chip if you implement it better. Remember, this started out as a Pono. Accuphase currently uses the chip in a $27,000 DAC and it sounds great. Obviously!

This is a nice DAC but I dig it for it's size Vs. powerhouse performance. Having the QX-5 Twenty on the floor on it's side is stupidity on my part. So I decided to do something about a few days ago. It is still darn nice just the way it is.

I wish I could find a truly summit DAC that was not more than 10"x14"x4"(WxLxH). I know of nothing. Barring that as it stands Modded it is pretty good. Being by far the cheapest component up here. I can always play with stuff but not leave it on the floor on side Duh.

On that note I would currently take it stock over the BDA-3 even though more connectivity. So to ditch the BDA-2 was a no brainer. It is still selling good if they actually just raised the price. Some of these people think 2 grand will go further in some fancy pants Chinese import no name and not ever close.


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## itsikhefez

Uri Cohen said:


> The Single-Ended Headphone out of the Codex is in my opinion flat out horrible.  I was using the GS2000e, SR225es and my Fiio F9 SE IEM into the Single-Ended input.  For starters there weren't enough power to drive these headphones/IEM nicely.  It also wasn't dynamic and just dull.
> 
> Now, running the headphones via Balanced Input into the Codex is a 180 degree turn.  A lot of power for my LCD2C and the Clears, very dynamic and musical.  If you are planning to use Single-Ended connection directly into the Codex, you are wasting your time.  However, if you only have Single-Ended headphones, you must get a separate headphone amp for that connection.  If you have headphones where you can easily swap cables, get audio cables from Surf Cables that works with the Codex Balanced Input.



I tend to agree with this. My modded VCAN and also Lehmann BCL were much better than the codex on Single-Ended. I used the HD700 on both SE and balanced, and the balanced is significantly better. Although, I didn't expect it to be this underwhelming with the Grado's, thats why I gave them a try. Going forward, I only want to use the Codex in balanced mode, both to make the best use of it, and also to not have to add another amp.
For a while now, I have been soldering my own cables... I made a balanced cable for the HD700 with Eidolic plugs, and Furutech FHD-35 OCC cable. If I will give the HD650 another try, I will make it a balanced cable as well. (I have some Mogami 2534 left over)



music_man said:


> I take it you do not observe Passover lol. That's okay the President didn't go to Seder either and half his family is Jewish HAHA. Well, I guess now I don't either. I do not want to give away who I am though as I am pretty well known. That is the beauty of the Internet, EH?
> 
> Man good choice Genelec. In the studio the DeFacto standard. By all means. I do not know why more Audiophiles have not embraced them. Benchmark Media worked there way in the door. In fact more Audiophiles know Benchmark from Dac1-2-3 than the Codex I assume.
> 
> ...



My desktop setup was way overkill before the Genelecs. After going through the equipment carousel (lots of speakers, amps an dacs), I was finally happy with PMC DB1i, Exposure 2010S2D, and the PS Audio NuWave DSD DAC, with pre-outs to the Lehmann BCL for headphone use. Ultimately, this was just way too much gear for just a small desk setup. I ended up selling everything, and now only have the Genelecs and the Codex. The previous was more enjoyable at times, but I don't miss it too often. It was also greatly under utilized.
Back to the previous point of adding an amp, the problem will also be that I'm using the Codex in Preamp mode for the Genelecs. I will need to have it in DAC mode for an external amp, and it would be pretty much a hassle to switch all the time.


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## music_man

It really just can't power Grado's. trust me the Genelecs are better but I can't say because in the home that is subjective. In the studio is a different story. A tool to do a job not for enjoyment but I do like them. Maybe so used to them. My home systems are much different though anyways. I am not some crazy Audiophile constantly buying stuff. I just get the best and done with it. Plus we have a lot of room here. Shopping for audio upsets me. I was an Engineer for 42 years or so. Now have my own studio out back.My real views differ but I play along with it. Still, some high end gear is very nice to listen to IMO. Even though it is truly a complete bastardization of the recording. I do have much more than I need but I know what I want and send someone to get it or order online. HIFI sales folks don't impress me much. I am unusual that I have my profession but also enjoy home equipment to some degree. Not a lot of people here got the Codex. Their mistake. It will hang with $5k DACS but now mine is beating $7k DACS. I do like this piece. Unless you want everything under the hood and much more money I do not really see the QX-5 Twenty as simply a "DAC". I am not into Roon, Tidal,MQA ETC. I rip my CD's. What is nice is HDMI so you can decode SACD on a DAC. The Codex was built to a price point. Depending on the individual 2 grand is not cheap either. It is not some cheap Chinese import. I think I am going to try a NOS R2R again. Delta_Sigma is good too just different. One thing for sure I only use balanced throughout. Except the Z1R seems to prefer SE, Balanced is great, unshielded cables and get a better sound. Among many other reasons. I would not build balanced, shielded though. That is part of the beauty of balanced.


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## ww785612

Just got my codex today and took it apart, the fuse is of size small. The rating is 240V 250mA.


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## kid vic

Any reason why some owners prefer the Codex over the QB-9dsd? Is it simply because the codex has the headphone out or because of dollars for performance?


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## ToddRaymond

Disclaimer:  I have not heard the QB-9 DSD, but I've owned several Ayre products, have a Pono Player, and have auditioned the Codex.

The Codex has the 9018k2m chip, whereas the DSD uses the 9016S.  The Codex shares design features originally found in their R-series products, like the diamond output circuit and their "Equilock" gain stage.  I've read and heard a handful of people generally say that the Codex slightly/somewhat better sounding than the QB-9.  The built-in headphone amp is an added bonus, and while that aspect of it isn't too shabby, it really works best as a balanced DAC.  I gather their QX-5 Twenty is meant to be a proper step up from the QB-9.  The Codex (which really is an über Pono) is a better value alternative, limited to USB and toslink inputs only.


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## kid vic

Turdski said:


> Disclaimer:  I have not heard the QB-9 DSD, but I've owned several Ayre products, have a Pono Player, and have auditioned the Codex.
> 
> The Codex has the 9018k2m chip, whereas the DSD uses the 9016S.  The Codex shares design features originally found in their R-series products, like the diamond output circuit and their "Equilock" gain stage.  I've read and heard a handful of people generally say that the Codex slightly/somewhat better sounding than the QB-9.  The built-in headphone amp is an added bonus, and while that aspect of it isn't too shabby, it really works best as a balanced DAC.  I gather their QX-5 Twenty is meant to be a proper step up from the QB-9.  The Codex (which really is an über Pono) is a better value alternative, limited to USB and toslink inputs only.



Cool, thanks for your thoughts


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## asquare3376 (Jul 20, 2019)

Wake up folks! It's 7 months and no post here...
Does anyone here know how does the Codex compare with Sony TA-ZH1ES?
I am interested in the pre-amp section sound quality.
Oh, and by the way I already own the TA-ZH1ES and now looking to bring home the Codex to be used as a DAC/fixed out preamp in my 2 channel system.


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## asquare3376

Bought the Codex earlier today, 07/21/19.
Used unit for ~100 hrs at a very good price. 
Can't wait to hear this terrific thing *love is in the Ayre*


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## Xinlisupreme

asquare3376 said:


> Bought the Codex earlier today, 07/21/19.
> Used unit for ~100 hrs at a very good price.
> Can't wait to hear this terrific thing *love is in the Ayre*


 
@asquare3376
Could you tell us differences between Ayre and Sony


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## asquare3376

Xinlisupreme said:


> @asquare3376
> Could you tell us differences between Ayre and Sony


I wish, but I am using these for entirely different purposes and never bothered to swap places for comparisons. Using the Ayre as a DAC only in my 2 channel, I am more than satisfied. I wanted to use the Sony TA-ZH1ES there but due to its unbalanced-out only limitation, I had to quit the idea.
What I would say is this - If you primarily intend to use the equipment for headphones (private) listening, get the Sony. It supports variety of different connections while the Ayre maxes out in 3.5 or dual 3.5 only. And boy, Ayre runs super hot.


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## wanderingnomad

So I've been interested in getting the Codex to use for a desktop setup headphone amp + DAC to KEF LSX speakers. I've read the Codex's balanced outputs are the way to go, but is it worth it to use the DAC's non-balanced outputs to powered speakers? Also considering the Woo Audio WA8 headphone amp. Has anyone compared these products or can provide input/advice? Thanks!


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## ToddRaymond

Hello @wanderingnomad. Having owned an Ayre preamp, two Ayre power amps, and a pair of Pono Players (which is sort of a mini Codex), I can say that their designs are really built around that balanced topology.  They sound quite a bit better when going balanced.  I've only auditioned the Codex in balanced mode, but I've heard the Pono plenty both in single-ended and balanced mode.  Single-ended should still sound really good.


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## wanderingnomad

Turdski said:


> Hello @wanderingnomad. Having owned an Ayre preamp, two Ayre power amps, and a pair of Pono Players (which is sort of a mini Codex), I can say that their designs are really built around that balanced topology.  They sound quite a bit better when going balanced.  I've only auditioned the Codex in balanced mode, but I've heard the Pono plenty both in single-ended and balanced mode.  Single-ended should still sound really good.



Thanks! Maybe I'll try the WA8 instead for my setup.


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## Emisar

I see that this post is rather dorment, but I would just like to share that my Codex half-died a few days ago. Precisely the USB connection stopped working. Since everything is shut due to corona quarantine my electronics guy told me that it's most probably a small fuse located right after the USB port, most probably died due to static electricity, either that or the usb controller is dead and needs to be replaced. We will see and I will share when we analyze in detail. Over Toslink it works fine for now.


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## bmoregnr

I was in the room when a lighting strike hit and saw the codex display go wonky for a second.  The strike also fried my modem.  I lost USB as well although optical kept working.  I worked with I think Gary, maybe Greg Mulder, gmulder@ayre.com and he was great to work with, it was still under warranty and even despite letting them know it was a lightning strike they took care of me great.  For the life of me I can't find the email, but I believe yes it was a USB clock or controller as you say that needed to be replaced.  Good luck with it.


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## jrhill

I wonder if anyone is still interested in this product but I've found a rather unusual "thing" about them that might be of interest - I recently added one of those "audiolab dc block" devices to the mains supply (230v/50Hz in Australia) and the improvement in the clarity is rather surprising - this has now replaced the 'traditional' dc blocker circuit, as per Rod Elliot and others - most unexpected improvement.    It also works on my Ayre QB-9 DSD dac too.


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## greytomorrow

Hi there! 

I understand that this thread is nearly, but I’d be happy to receive a piece of advice… Is there any way use iPad Pro 12.9 2021 as a source for Codex via type-C to type-B cable?


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## Emisar

greytomorrow said:


> Hi there!
> 
> I understand that this thread is nearly, but I’d be happy to receive a piece of advice… Is there any way use iPad Pro 12.9 2021 as a source for Codex via type-C to type-B cable?


I'm not 100% sure for iPad but there should be no problem. For Android devices it works perfectly using an app called "USB Player", it also has an option to completely bypass the android audio core and directly transport data to DAC. I tried multiple DACs with the iPad Air 4, but never tried the Codex.


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## greytomorrow

Oh, I really hope that you’re right. I have a very good combo of Cowon Plenue L + Wireworld Supernova 7 for optical connection, but I also want to try to use 2tb of iPad too


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