# New, Burson Conductor 3 Reference: Dual 9038 DAC, 7.5Wpc Head Amp, Preamp, Changeable Opamps



## DarKu (Aug 22, 2019)

A new TOTL DAC and headphone amp / preamp from Burson Audio is incoming.
* Dual ESS9038 DAC chip.
* Class A headphone and preamp outputs.  Headphone outputting 7500mW@16ohm.
* Dual mono and fully symmetrical.
* Fully discrete signal path.
* Burson proprietary Max Current Power Supply (MCPS) which raises voltage frequency from 50Hz to 170kHz, pushing noise beyond human hearing.
* 5 sets of MCPS: Which means, Display/Functionality, DAC, analouge left and analouge right are all separately powered.
* 4 layers, high-density PCB, ensuring perfect separation and shielding of noise interference
* Bluetooth 5.0 input.
* Xmos USB receiver.  32bit / 786khz, DSD512 native streaming (custom developed driver by Thesycon, Germany)
* 7 selectable sound filters and two gain levels.
* Audiophile components throughout including TDK resistors, Elna caps.
* All-new "Cool Case" is a 300% more efficient heat-sink when compared to the Conductor 2 enclosure.
*1800USD inc shipping worldwide.

Dual DAC and dual mono design Yes please! So far I'm quite pumped and can't wait to have a listen to it.

Before you ask, I don't know what the "tetris button" does.

https://www.bursonaudio.com/products/conductor-3/


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## citraian

Wow, as a previous Conductor (V1) owner I am really interested about this one


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## escalibur (Aug 13, 2019)

I can already hear Burson saying 'no more Mr. Nice Guy'. 


'Tetris' button is probably related to the display in case you want to flip your Conductor.


ps. Dat design though..


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## Hooster

I like it.


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## DarKu

escalibur said:


> 'Tetris' button is probably related to the display in case you want to flip your Conductor.


Yep, makes sense buddy.

I should have a full size pic probably at the end of this week. I am curious myself how they managed to make it 300% more heat efficient.


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## karmazynowy

Finally an XLR hp output from Burson?


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## DarKu

I don't know but I really hope so myself


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## technobear

Another DAC/amp with no EQ and no Crossfeed? 

Good thing too as we have such a shortage of those... not.


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## DarKu (Aug 15, 2019)

It seems that Conductor 3 was just unveiled and here its official page: https://www.bursonaudio.com/products/conductor-3/
Retail price 1800USD inc shipping.
Pre-Order Promotional Price 1399 inc shipping.
Shipping from Mid September

Will update my original post once I get back from vacation.


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## Slim1970

I’m a big fan of Burson. They make amazing gear. I was hoping they would replace the V2/V2+. But I was hoping it would be something with balanced in’s and out’s. Nevertheless, the specs look outstanding.


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## KESM

I’m on the pre-order list for Headamp’s GSX mini but this has caught my attention


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## newtophones07

I am interested, as I like the burson sound.  They have to fix their amp impedance issues with low impedance cans/iems and the background hissing, especially at this price.

I have owned four burson device and their customer service is the best I have encountered.


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## alota

i have a playmate and i´m happy but my headphone deserves more. of course this new conductor on paper is awesome.


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## kaushama

I have a conductor V2+ with power amp Timekeeper. They are brilliant and I am quite excited about V3. Specially their new power supply design is very inspiring and intriguing!


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## alota

kaushama said:


> . Specially their new power supply design is very inspiring and intriguing!


agree. i hope quality control of pcb is better compared to playmate


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## peter123

Nice! I can't wait to see some comparisons to the V2+


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## DarKu

peter123 said:


> Nice! I can't wait to see some comparisons to the V2+


I think I can give you that pretty soon.


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## Bastianpp

Is bigger or smaller than cv2?


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## Gradius (Aug 17, 2019)

I was looking into TEAC UD-505 and now THIS.

However, lacking a Master Clock Generator (10MHz) input on Burson is somewhat disappoint (at least to me) specially at this price.

UD-505 sells for $1600, and the NeTwork version (NT-505) for $1800.


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## alota

Gradius said:


> However, lacking a Master Clock Generator (10MHz) input on Burson is somewhat disappoint (at least to me) specially at this price.


Probably. But how many people has a master clock generator?with new sabre and internal clock i think it is not necessary


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## EternalChampion

Conductor V2+ looks much prettier to me especially the silver version.  But this doesn't put me off either.  Something has to be really ugly for my taste to force me ignore the main show, its audio performance.

Now what's under the hood is very surprising.  I wonder how many dacs out there actually utilize two sabre chips...! I had the impression that this is a bad choice because of technical reasons.  What a treat. 

Stepping up the game without...delays!


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## up late (Aug 19, 2019)

Bastianpp said:


> Is bigger or smaller than cv2?


it's marginally smaller and significantly lighter in weight:
cv3 - 255mm x 270mm x 70mm  weight - app. 5kg
cv2+ - 265mm x 255mm x 80mm  weight - app. 7kg


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## alota

i saw the usb in the rear i presume is type c. my phone is type c too. exists some cable c to c otg?


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## raoultrifan

Gradius said:


> I was looking into TEAC UD-505 and now THIS.
> 
> However, lacking a Master Clock Generator (10MHz) input on Burson is somewhat disappoint (at least to me) specially at this price.
> 
> UD-505 sells for $1600, and the NeTwork version (NT-505) for $1800.



We're comparing a 0.5W/32Ohms with 5W/32Ohms combos here.

Looking further for Darku's review and the compare with CV2+.


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## alota

raoultrifan said:


> We're comparing a 0.5W/32Ohms with 5W/32Ohms combos here.
> 
> Looking further for Darku's review and the compare with CV2+.


in my opinion, despite better double dac chip, the most important is the 5 mcps section


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## kaushama

Yes. MCPS really interests me too.


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## raoultrifan (Aug 18, 2019)

MCPS is something patented by BURSON and, most likely, they're the first audio company that implemented boost-regulators on a "large scale" inside their Hi-Fi equipment. It's all about increasing power efficiency, shrinking the size and lowering the internal temperature, while audio quality gets better too; now that's indeed a progress.

BTW, have you guys seen the internal pics with capacity banks inside C3? I guess these are part of many low-pass and/or Pi filters from regulators output, to decrease the ripple and noise. Quite an impressive look and design, given the fact that more smaller caps means lower impedance for power supplies, instead of using 2...4 big caps.

I am in vacation to sea-side right now, my CV2+ is just too bulky to carry it on with me, so I got the Playmate instead, but maybe if I would have a C3 at home I might taking it with me in vacation, who knows. You can't argue with a fool man for sure. 

Being double-DAC is definitely an improvement in THD, SNR, channel separation (soundstage) and the final SINAD as well, but the 8 x TO220 powerful transistors inside are those that provide the output sound to the headphones; this is like the monitor for a computer, and audiophiles are like...Photoshopers: they need the best colorimetry possible. 

Given the published specs (5W/32Ohms), C3 can drive planars with ease, so the internal amplifier is what I always liked about any Conductor. I also see it's about 10% more powerful than CV2 and the output impedance decreased from 3Ohms to 0.5Ohms, so in my opinion the output power increase and internal impedance decrease is a real improvement over the audio part on C3.


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## alota

raoultrifan said:


> MCPS is something patented by BURSON and, most likely, they're the first audio company that implemented boost-regulators on a "large scale" inside their Hi-Fi equipment. It's all about increasing power efficiency, shrinking the size and lowering the internal temperature, while audio quality gets better too; now that's indeed a progress.


and another advantage is that you are completely independent from any variation of electricity network


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## raoultrifan

You are totally right @alota, the external power brick is a low noise SMPS that works perfectly across 100-250V (or so). Also, internal MCPS regulators care not about any DC-voltage or pulsatory-current that may appear on the mains (from LED lighting, poorly designed SMPSs, magnetron from microwave, vacuum cleaners or washing machines, photovoltaic panels, power generators, any kind of invertors etc).

Basically, MCPS design filters everything unwanted from mains and create its own power supplies internally. I would say that expensive power filters or "regenerators" might not be needed for C3. Of course, surge protectors or AVRs or UPSs might help when mains voltage gets completely out of limits (e.g.: when lightning occurs).


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## Reebonz

Anyone preordered?

2x 6.3mm headphone jacks on the left side?

This must be the most expensive DAC/AMP with dual ES9038Q2M...I wonder how big an audio upgrade is compared to the Burson Playmate?


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## karmazynowy

Reebonz said:


> 2x 6.3mm headphone jacks on the left side?



Official specs says

Outputs:1 x RCA Pre Amp, 1 x Headphone Jack

But looking at photos it must be a typo.


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## alota

Reebonz said:


> Anyone preordered?
> 
> 2x 6.3mm headphone jacks on the left side?
> 
> This must be the most expensive DAC/AMP with dual ES9038Q2M...I wonder how big an audio upgrade is compared to the Burson Playmate?


The dac is 8 channel version not mobile version


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## Reebonz

alota said:


> The dac is 8 channel version not mobile version



Where are you seeing this info?

If it's the PRO version than they should state it in the sales page to differentiate from the Playmate.


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## alota

Reebonz said:


> Where are you seeing this info?
> 
> If it's the PRO version than they should state it in the sales page to differentiate from the Playmate.


good point. probably you´re right. i assumed because v2 had pro version. in this case the situation is a little bit different


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## raoultrifan (Aug 19, 2019)

Even if it's the C2M or K2M version of 9038 chip it's still the same performance if used in stereo mode. There are so many devices that use es9038 pro in stereo mode and that is just a waste of money.

Example: Benchmark DAC3 is paralleling the 8 channels 4 by 4 to gain couple of dB in THD+N, while Sonica DAC is using only 2 channels out of 8 (same theoretical performance like the C2M version of 9038 chip), the other channels remaining unused/connected to ground.


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## alota

raoultrifan said:


> Even if it's the C2M or K2M version of 9038 chip it's still the same performance if used in stereo mode. There are so many devices that use es9038 pro in stereo mode and that is just a waste of money.
> 
> Example: Benchmark DAC3 is paralleling the 8 channels 4 by 4 to gain couple of dB in THD+N, while Sonica DAC is using only 2 channels out of 8 (same theoretical performance like the C2M version of 9038 chip), the other channels remaining unused/connected to ground.


True. 8 channel in parallel improves performance. But for this target price i think 9038 pro was better


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## karmazynowy

> The SABRE32/ESS9038 DAC and XMOS USB receiver chips are the *most advanced and expensive* in the industry.



Sounds like a PRO version to me.


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## raoultrifan

Well, it might be the Q2M/C2M/K2M version, I wouldn't care anyway because 2 separate DAC chips (2xQ2M) will offer a better channel separation than 1 DAC chip (1xPRO). Of course, by paralleling the channels on the PRO version the THD+N might get a bit improved, but still the final numbers are provided by the analog parts anyway.

I'm very confident that the pre-ordering price is very good indeed, especially that Burson's warranty and service was always top-class.


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## raoultrifan

https://www.bursonaudio.com/products/conductor-3/ has been updated, it's about couple of ES9038Q2M inside. Here're the specs: http://www.esstech.com/index.php/en...mobile-dacs/sabre-hifi-stereo-dacs/es9028q2m/, so we're speaking about 129dB DNR and 120dB THD+N. Worth mentioning that a DNR of 120dB is the max. theoretical limit of human hearing (https://whatis.techtarget.com/definition/dynamic-range), in my case I can't hear anything below 15dB and after 125dB I get almost depth for 5 to 10 minutes, so I think 110dB it's safe enough for my ears.

C3R seems to parallel two of ES9038Q2M chips, hence the DNR (dynamic range) and THD+N (distortions and background noise) will get 1-2dB lower, so I really don't think the DAC chips are an issue here.

For reference, here's a nice datasheet (http://www.esstech.com/files/4514/4095/4306/Application_Note_Component_Selection_and_PCB_Layout.pdf) where you can see when using LME49710/LME49720 in I/V stage you don't get any dB improvement on dual-chip DAC vs. the 8-ch. DAC (when paralleled), so again: the analog parts and the power supply provide the final DNT and THD.


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## horatiu (Aug 20, 2019)

A missed opportunity, in my opinion. You design all that analogue circuitry and then you throw in a chip (ok, two) designed for mobile phones.
Hopefully they'll release an updated Soloist. I have their first version and it's really good.


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## karmazynowy

horatiu said:


> A missed opportunity, in my opinion. You design all that analogue circuitry and then you throw in a chip (ok, two) designed for mobile phones.



I agree. This dosn't make any sense. They put mobile ESS into desktop units and PRO ESS into DAPs... ie. A&K Kann Cube, or A&K SE100 uses 9038 PRO, ibasso DX220 uses 9028 PRO...


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## alota (Aug 20, 2019)

Well agree too. My lg v30 has same chip
Edit: this price range is to have the top. Otherwise for now i keep my playmate


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## raoultrifan

horatiu said:


> ...
> Hopefully they'll release an updated Soloist. I have their first version and it's really good.



From my understanding FUN is the next level headamp. It has about the same analog parts and schematic inside, but is using MCPS instead toroid and linear PSU for increased efficiency, less mains hum and lower temps.

I see that C3-R has RCA in plugs, so the powerful headamp inside can be used with an external DAC. Worth mentioning that such amount of power can be achieved with 8-10 x LME49600 output buffers (4-5/ch.), so not easy to do such an amp with opamps only.


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## horatiu

I have the Playmate and the amp is nowhere near as good as the Soloist, in my opinion. At least not with LCD-3 and LCD-XC.


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## raoultrifan

If you can do an A/B test between FUN or PLAYMATE and Soloist it would be perfect. I bet FUN/PLAYMATE will sound more analytic and dry (pretty close to the studio sound), while Soloist sounds warmer (like sort of higher harmonics).


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## horatiu (Aug 20, 2019)

I've done that between a Conductor (which I don't have anymore, and which is essentially a Soloist in its amp section).
With LCD-3 and, to a lesser extent, LCD-XC, the Playmate sounds weak. Not in the sense that it's not loud enough, but it lacks energy, it's flat.
I haven't tried more efficient cans.


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## raoultrifan

I A/B tested CV2+ vs. Playmate Everest and I don't remember any weakness, and I used HE560 that are harder to drive than LCD-3. Maybe I'll A/B test it again next week, but worth mentioning that I do volume match either with o-scope, either with DMM.


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## escalibur

raoultrifan said:


> I A/B tested CV2+ vs. Playmate Everest and I don't remember any weakness


Can you describe the differences if there were any?


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## raoultrifan

Even if in my synthetic tests CV2+ was above PLAYMATE (in THD with few dB better, perfect square-waves reproduction etc.), I was unable to discern really  noticeable differences with HE560 and T50RPmk3...sorry, but worth mentioning the huge power reserve advantage CV2+ has it over the PLAYMATE. Well, for few times I perceived a tiny advantage of CV2+ in the details and soundstage, but only on extreme levels (>100dB peaks).

I was mostly listening to compressed music and with lot of trebles and bass, but I can re-do this test with more dynamic music like Jazz and Classics, maybe something will come up. I will include speakers too, just in case.


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## DarKu

Hey guys, it seems that the C3 Ref webpage is still updating, today they posted new pics.
Do I see them right on my monitor, is that a silver C3Ref?
Looking really nice in silver.


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## up late

that's space grey


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## raoultrifan

Very clever outer case, it's a huge heatsink made of aluminum with stripes, so the dissipation surface is much higher than it looks like due to the stripes.

BTW, in the above image it really looks nice this combo.


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## alota

i hope burson will keep the retail price of 1.394 dollars. for it´s more appropriate


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## Gradius

alota said:


> i hope burson will keep the retail price of 1.394 dollars. for it´s more appropriate



Pretty much impossible:
"Production of the Conductor 3 Reference is on schedule and we’ll start shipping in mid-September.  Pre-order will end a few days before then.  However, as we’ll be shipping in chronological order, (ie the earlier you place an order, the earlier you will receive it) therefore, please don’t wait until the last minute to capture this incredible pre-order. (Saving up to $400 USD from RRP) Please use the “SHOP” buttom on top to complete your order."


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## raoultrifan

Worst case scenario would be to grab Christmas or Easter promo, I'm sure that promo price will be OK.

Meanwhile, looking further for first reviews. I personally like the smaller size and the added wireless connectivity (streaming).


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## alota

raoultrifan said:


> Worst case scenario would be to grab Christmas or Easter promo, I'm sure that promo price will be OK.
> 
> Meanwhile, looking further for first reviews. I personally like the smaller size and the added wireless connectivity (streaming).


agree your post. about wireless connectivity, bluetooth has same quality compared to otg-usb connection?


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## up late

it's only five millimetres smaller than the cv2+ overall


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## raoultrifan

BT AptX transmission seems good enough, couldn't find many tests, but this one should do: http://www.sereneaudio.com/blog/how-good-is-bluetooth-audio-at-its-best

C-3 is 1cm lower than CV2 and 2 kg less weight, maybe seeing both side by side will help more.


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## up late (Aug 24, 2019)

as i posted earlier in this thread, the difference in overall size between the conductor 3 and the cv2+ is marginal at best. the conductor 3's 2kg weight reduction is significant, however. neither could be described as a compact desktop unit imo.


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## raoultrifan

Well, about 11% reduction in volume and 29% reduction in weight is still a decent down-sizing. Maybe Burson will build an even smaller Conductor in few years...who knows. 

BTW, found a good resource explaining AptX HD and many other codecs here: https://m.habr.com/en/post/456182/. Seems that AptX HD is a 24 bit/48 KHz codec having bitrates up to 576 Kbs. I guess an A/B test might tell us the true story.


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## kebcy

Raoultrifan!

What do you think, this new Conductor 3ref would be a big upgrade for a FUN plus SWING combo? Those two runs with V6Opamps(Vivid)

Any info about how many swapable opamps have the new Conductor 3ref?

Regards,
kebcy


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## raoultrifan

Hi Kebcy,

Conductor seems to be more into all-in-one combo with DAC + headamp + streaming capabilities, so definitely more versatile. Maybe C3 will sound and measure a bit better than SWING + FUN, but that doesn't necessarily means that you or me will hear the differences; well, maybe yes, but maybe not...can't tell now.

For sure C3 is more look-appealing and better looking on your living room or on your Hi-Fi desk. Also, if you intend to purchase hard to drive headphones, especially planars, then C3 is the way to go.

If the modest look of SWING/FUN is OK with you and 2x2W is enough for all your headphones, then it might be wiser to pass for the moment and wait until you will have more reasons to upgrade (maybe wait for first reviewer what have to say).

One thing that C3 can't do for sure: will never replace my PLAY + FUN from my desktop computer, mostly because C3 can't fit inside and I don't have space left on my desk.

Best,
Raul.


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## up late (Aug 24, 2019)

raoultrifan said:


> Well, about 11% reduction in volume and 29% reduction in weight is still a decent down-sizing. Maybe Burson will build an even smaller Conductor in few years...who knows.
> 
> BTW, found a good resource explaining AptX HD and many other codecs here: https://m.habr.com/en/post/456182/. Seems that AptX HD is a 24 bit/48 KHz codec having bitrates up to 576 Kbs. I guess an A/B test might tell us the true story.


it's an overall reduction in size of only 5mm, which i regard as minimal. while i agree that the 2kg weight reduction is significant, at 5kgs the conductor 3 is still a substantial piece of desktop audio hardware imo.


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## alota

Another strange choice for me is the implementantion of discrete op-amps in this product. Why not directly a discret configuration on the pcb? To save space???


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## raoultrifan

Actually SS opamps are semiconductors distributed vertically, so it's a space saving option, although I guess the ability of sound flavor change is the main reason for this.

When SS V7 will arise you will want to upgrade for sure.


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## andrewjamesdean

Are we likely to see any reviews before the preorder closes?


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## raoultrifan

Based on https://www.head-fi.org/threads/new...changeable-opamps.912911/page-2#post-15127631 this should happen in few weeks...hopefully.


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## kebcy

raoultrifan said:


> Hi Kebcy,
> 
> Conductor seems to be more into all-in-one combo with DAC + headamp + streaming capabilities, so definitely more versatile. Maybe C3 will sound and measure a bit better than SWING + FUN, but that doesn't necessarily means that you or me will hear the differences; well, maybe yes, but maybe not...can't tell now.
> 
> ...



Hey raoultrifan!

Thank you the detailed answer, so your opinion is to stick to my old SWING-FUN combo until the first reviews pops up here on Head-Fi, right? I talked with Alex from Burson and he said " the Conductor 3 Reference sounds superior to the Fun/Swing combo.  The C3R has 2 pieces of 9038 DAC chip which increases accuracy and lowers THD. The C3 also outputs 7.5watts whereas the Fun outputs 2 watts" also "There are 2 V6vivid dual and 2 V6vivid single opamps in the C3.  They are fully discrete opamps made from Dale resistors and Toshiba transistors. "

So I am still a bit confused, cause this Conductor V3REF looks absolutely amazing, but I am not sure the two dac will or WOULD improve any sound quality for my Beyerdynamic Amiron Home..


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## raoultrifan (Aug 27, 2019)

Conductor plays in a different league than SWING/FUN, that's for sure. C3-ref. has two paralleled DAC chips, so that means at least 2dB better THD+N and SNR; also, I can't help not saying again about the much powerful amplifier inside. It is also more versatile due to the wireless streaming capabilities, so probably one of the best combos ever, especially because of the 2 x 7.5W headphones amplifier inside.

Given the very high sensitivity of 102dB/mW of your Amiron Home headphones the C3-ref. will help in providing a darker background (much lower noise) and this should also bring some more micro-details into the scene. If you can sell your existing SWING + FUN for a good price, then I'm sure you can benefit from this good-looking C3-ref. combo.


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## Joong (Aug 27, 2019)

Sigma delta refers to average that is adding basically to improve SQ in number for sure. And the more power the more control for improving speaker motors.
For dac you find double, and for amp triple for signal quality in number.
Furthermore Burson's new toy MCPS will increase the dynamism that will add rythmical nature of you music.
They can improve from ground up.


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## Joong

It seems that Burson audio of the minimalist approach to build audio amplifiers of the first generation of soloist and conductor is now changed to usual design using feedback by adopting their own discrete opamps based on their expertise on amplifier design. My statement is true?


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## raoultrifan (Aug 28, 2019)

If you are referring to the negative feedback I guess all Burson amps had and have a bit of NFB, which is a good thing.

My guess would be that if someone (e.g.: BURSON) is able to build a very good output buffer and a high efficiency power supply, then changing the active components from I/V or LPF or Voltage-Gain by simply swapping few opamps is uber-awesome: discrete SS opamps for audiophiles and regular low-noise opamps for most Hi-Fi listeners; I can easily call this a win-win-win.

Few years back swapping opamps in ASUS soundcards was so much fun for everyone, but now I feel that BURSON took this to the next level: from fun + sound flavor changing to fun + new technology (which would be a combination of sound flavor and performance increase in the same time).


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## Joong

Nowadays of giga hz clock electronics culture, if you get rid of negative feedback  then you would find yourself living in stone-age.


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## Marutks

I preordered the C3-ref amp.   Does it sound better than the original Conductor amp?
I like the smaller size/weight.


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## raoultrifan

It should sound better, but nobody had it analyzed/reviewd yet. 

@DarKu made a promise few weeks ago.


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## DarKu

raoultrifan said:


> It should sound better, but nobody had it analyzed/reviewd yet.
> 
> @DarKu made a promise few weeks ago.



I still didn't get it, but I will soon together with my preliminary impressions, promise


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## Joong

Marutks said:


> I preordered the C3-ref amp.   Does it sound better than the original Conductor amp?
> I like the smaller size/weight.


I had original Conductor and Soloist, and now I have Swing and Fun with V6 on them which are basically considered as new version of both and better in control and in dynamic characters.
Old versions are smooth and too gentle to my ears, whereas newer ones do the same liquidity but with better control and extention in tonality.
I think it is possible with their new power supply that eliminates transformer and adds more dynamism via ample power upto 7watt.
I think C3 might be one of the best out there.


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## andrewjamesdean

I emailed the Burson guys, they confirmed that due to the timing of the release of the units, it was unlikely there would be any reviews before the pre-order finished. So it does require a leap of faith


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## Marutks

is the new conductor amp better than fiio k5 pro?

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/fii...os-xuf208-768k-32bit-and-dsd-decoding.913816/


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## raoultrifan

These combos are playing in totally different leagues, in respect with output power, versatility a.s.o.

However, a great review could be read here: https://soundnews.net/amplifiers/headphone-amps/fiio-k5-pro-review-student-fi/#targetText=K5 PRO has a perfect,it at home or not., also K5 headphone amplifier measurements here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...d-measurements-of-fiio-k5-headphone-amp.6824/, but C3-ref has way much more output power, so driving planars will be done with a better control; same applies when driving >300Ohms dynamic headphones (e.g.: Beyerdynamic DT880), where K5 seem to fall this area a bit.

Again: these combos play in different leagues and have different price range. If money is not a problem, then C3-ref. might server you better if driving low-sensitivity headphones (worth adding BT streaming too).


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## peter123

Yearh, this is like asking if the HD800S is better than Porta Pro. 

That being said the Porta Pro is better for running


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## selvakumar

im pre-ordering the conductor 3


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## raoultrifan (Sep 10, 2019)

I was having a look to Burson's video here: 
and seems that they were able to downsize this combo by lowering case overall volume while increasing heatsink surface area (it's about the rims or "fins" they added, like CPU heatsink works) and also getting rid of the "old school" linear PSU for the new digital regulators MCPS.

I've never seen an audiophile device with such kind of power regulators inside (from head to tail) and with such an innovative case, although I've seen some Alpine power amps for use with car subwoofers with similar shape and outer cases (of course, not so good looking; after all, these are hidden inside car's trunk).

From my understanding the PROs and CONs for *MCPS *would be:
PRO:
- lowering device size and its operating temperature;
- getting rid of EMI radiation from transformer and from any possible mains hum (50/60Hz) and it's higher harmonics (usually 3rd one is the most annoying one), that might be heard sometimes with sensitive headphones;
- no huge capacitors needed for instant current delivery (usually after 5-6 years these need swapped with new ones);
- around 90% power efficiency (about twice a linear PSU has), so less internal temperature and lower power consumption.
CON:
- having surface mount components (like most devices these days) it might be harder to diagnose and repair post-warranty, although the PCB looks very airy to me and traces are easy to visualize.

As for the newly designed *outer case*:
PRO:
- no more dust will ever get inside, as there are no holes for air movement;
- lower internal temperature, for both electronic components and the air;
- lower size and weight
CON:
- case temperature could be few degrees higher than a similar device with active cooling (fan inside)
- those who love shiny glossy cases might not love the new case

Again, looking further for first reviews!


----------



## escalibur

The design looks very mature and stylish. I really do hope that they apply this same design to all upcoming models regardless of their price range.


----------



## raoultrifan

That means to higher the lower prices from 299$ to 499$ or even higher. 

I don't know how much it takes to build such a case, but it will definitely increase the prices on new Basic PLAYMATE or FUN costs right now. I guess existing versions of PLAYMATE/FUN/BANG have a very good price/performance ratio and also fit perfectly inside a desktop computer, so not sure Burson will trade any of these aspects to completely change new coming versions of PLAYMATE/FUN/BANG, but let's see what future will bring up on our tables.


----------



## raoultrifan

selvakumar said:


> im pre-ordering the conductor 3


Of course, like always: looking further for your reviews, comments and pics.


----------



## AshUsername

The style change does mean a disconnect with the two Timekeeper products. Those with a Timekeeper are less likely to jump to a Conductor 3. 
Do we think a new generation of Timekeeper products will follow using MCPS? Or can MCPS not scale to higher watts needed for powering large speakers?


----------



## raoultrifan

Why would you say so? It's probably a different look for sure, but as long as RCA and XLR plugs and cables are still available on the market, we can pair different products anyway. 

Several companies developed AB-class and D-class amplifiers with switching supplies inside (similar with MCPS) instead of regular linear PSUs. I'm sure that Burson is able to do that for a future Timekeeper, but till then we do have BANG amplifier that is using MCPS inside.


----------



## escalibur

raoultrifan said:


> That means to higher the lower prices from 299$ to 499$ or even higher.
> 
> I don't know how much it takes to build such a case, but it will definitely increase the prices on new Basic PLAYMATE or FUN costs right now. I guess existing versions of PLAYMATE/FUN/BANG have a very good price/performance ratio and also fit perfectly inside a desktop computer, so not sure Burson will trade any of these aspects to completely change new coming versions of PLAYMATE/FUN/BANG, but let's see what future will bring up on our tables.


I don't think it has to be that expensive. I could easly see that with +$50-$100 extra cost per device it could be possible. It doesn't need to be exactly the same as with Conductor 3 but something similar in terms of design.

We can only wait and see.


----------



## Reebonz (Sep 11, 2019)

I got these images from a friend which show the Conductor 3 but with a different brand logo on it.

Brodmann seems to be a high-end piano and speakers maker so this is quite interesting.

The images were taken at the AKG booth from the GuangZhou Audio Show last weekend.

I'm just curious does Burson has a working relationship with Brodmann that allow them to rebrand the product?


----------



## up late (Sep 11, 2019)

it looks identical. very interesting development indeed.


----------



## andrewjamesdean

There’s nothing sinister here – Burson and Brodmann (an Austrian company which makes headphones) have a very close working relationship.

In this particular interest Brodmann asked Burson to provide an amp that could drive their headphones at the trade show, and Burson obliged by providing the C3-Ref. Out of respect for Brodmann, Burson decided to brand this particular unit with the Brodmann logo so as not to distract the listener from the main attractiong – the headphones!

Burson have done a similar thing in the past for both Audeze and AKG


----------



## raoultrifan

From what I know Broadman designs speakers, so like Audeze did with Matrix (HPA-3U became Deckard), and like Andrew said before, it's more likely that Burson could sell OEM devices to other companies.

BTW Andrew, did you happen to remember what devices were branded for Audeze and AKG, please? Than you!


----------



## up late

andrewjamesdean said:


> There’s nothing sinister here – Burson and Brodmann (an Austrian company which makes headphones) have a very close working relationship.
> 
> In this particular interest Brodmann asked Burson to provide an amp that could drive their headphones at the trade show, and Burson obliged by providing the C3-Ref. Out of respect for Brodmann, Burson decided to brand this particular unit with the Brodmann logo so as not to distract the listener from the main attractiong – the headphones!
> 
> Burson have done a similar thing in the past for both Audeze and AKG


thanks for the clarification


----------



## selvakumar

raoultrifan said:


> From what I know Broadman designs speakers, so like Audeze did with Matrix (HPA-3U became Deckard), and like Andrew said before, it's more likely that Burson could sell OEM devices to other companies.
> Right question at the right timd
> 
> BTW Andrew, did you happen to remember what devices were branded for Audeze and AKG, please? Than you!


Right question at the right moment


----------



## selvakumar

official thread will be opened soon


----------



## raoultrifan

Selva, isn't this one the official C3-Ref thread?


----------



## peter123

raoultrifan said:


> Selva, isn't this one the official C3-Ref thread?



I sure hope so. It would be very strange to make yet another thread on the same topic.....


----------



## DarKu (Sep 13, 2019)

Anyone considering pre-oreding the C3 Ref should do it in the next 42 hours, after that the price will go back to the MSRP price of $1799 or €1999 inc VAT


----------



## selvakumar

raoultrifan said:


> Selva, isn't this one the official C3-Ref thread?


its not official will be opened soon


----------



## DarKu

selvakumar said:


> its not official will be opened soon


You are a funny guy.


----------



## selvakumar

DarKu said:


> You are a funny guy.


ha ha any one preordered ?


----------



## raoultrifan

DarKu said:


> Anyone considering pre-oreding the C3 Ref should do it in the next 42 hours, after that the price will go back to the MSRP price of $1799 or €1999 inc VAT



DarKu's right, see below pic:




 ​However, still waiting for a review...or at least a pre-review.


----------



## EternalChampion

raoultrifan said:


> However, still waiting for a review...or at least a pre-review.



Well, hardcore fans of V2+ presentation might need a bit of time to adjust or might even get a bit disappointed because of the new power delivery system.   I'm almost certain that I'll fall in love with C3 but for various reasons I never pre-order.


----------



## raoultrifan

EternalChampion said:


> [...] I'm almost certain that I'll fall in love with C3 but for various reasons I never pre-order.



Christmas is coming soon...


----------



## EternalChampion

raoultrifan said:


> Christmas is coming soon...



Always unlucky since a kid.  Late December Santa, early January birthday.  Too close to be good...


----------



## selvakumar (Sep 13, 2019)

ill preorder and update the pic once received


----------



## alota

raoultrifan said:


> DarKu's right, see below pic:
> 
> ​However, still waiting for a review...or at least a pre-review.


these boards on top of each other do not inspire confidence...remembering my playmate


----------



## Audio Addict (Sep 14, 2019)

With tonight's cutoff,  I think for now I will wait as I have the Playmate and a Swing.  However, I did reach out to Alex at Burson Audio who said:

"The C3 Reference is many times better than the Playmate from sound performance, build quality and to functionality.  It has a more sophisticated power supply section.  Two pieces of ESS9038 to lower THD and improve dynamics.  It does work well with other opamps including our Classic but as it's named Reference, we have selected the Vivid opamps by default.  The case is easier to open up than the Playmate and we are absolutely encouraging customers to roll opamps."

This does make me second guess myself but I am also updating my listening space so something had to go on hold


----------



## alota

Audio Addict said:


> With tonight's cutoff,  I think for now I will wait as I have the Playmate and a Swing.  However, I did reach out to Alex at Burson Audio who said:
> 
> "The C3 Reference is many times better than the Playmate from sound performance, build quality and to functionality.  It has a more sophisticated power supply section.  Two pieces of ESS9038 to lower THD and improve dynamics.  It does work well with other opamps including our Classic but as it's named Reference, we have selected the Vivid opamps by default.  The case is easier to open up than the Playmate and we are absolutely encouraging customers to roll opamps."
> 
> This does make me second guess myself but I am also updating my listening space so something had to go on hold


yesterday i had a long listening session with playmate. how good sound this piece. i´m really surprised. in fact i suppose that conductor v3 sounds better compared to playmate. how much better? this my curiosity. another question: i hope a better quality control in v3


----------



## selvakumar

Reebonz said:


> Anyone preordered?
> 
> 2x 6.3mm headphone jacks on the left side?
> 
> This must be the most expensive DAC/AMP with dual ES9038Q2M...I wonder how big an audio upgrade is compared to the Burson Playmate?


yes i too have the same question and it doesnt have balanced output then why two 6.3mm jack


----------



## 519514

Is anyone privy to whether the two 1/4 inch jacks can run two pairs of stereo headphones concurrently, or can toggle between them (making it possible to keep two pairs plugged in, only switching the output)?


----------



## karmazynowy

jamieskella said:


> Is anyone privy to whether the two 1/4 inch jacks can run two pairs of stereo headphones concurrently, or can toggle between them (making it possible to keep two pairs plugged in, only switching the output)?



Two simultaneously.


----------



## 519514

karmazynowy said:


> Two simultaneously.



Without individual volume control for each, I assume?


----------



## karmazynowy

jamieskella said:


> Without individual volume control for each, I assume?



Not 100% sure but I suppose so.


----------



## alota

jamieskella said:


> Without individual volume control for each, I assume?


i think conductor has digital volume from dac if i´m right. so it´s complicated two indipendent volume


----------



## Compton

jamieskella said:


> Is anyone privy to whether the two 1/4 inch jacks can run two pairs of stereo headphones concurrently, or can toggle between them (making it possible to keep two pairs plugged in, only switching the output)?



You can connect two pairs of headphones at the same time and adjust the volume of both at the same time. There is only one knob


----------



## atmfrank

(infrequently active). FWIW: I just received notice that my V3 has been shipped! I jumped in on the pre-order offer without much hesitation, although I am usually not that impulse-driven when it comes to expensive audio gear. With Burson, it's different and I trust their fanatical approach to improve relevant issues in modern audio gear: power, pre-amp stages and...finally DAC performance. I had actually hoped for an ES9038 upgrade module for my V2+. But so be it since I also get a much nicer body, display, and multiple headphone jacks. 

I drive Audi. What most people forget, the inside of a car is where you spend 99% of your time with the car. So....the interior matters a lot, the design and controls have to match the performance and exterior, and so does the look and feel of audio gear. Although it's really the Audi driving performance that matters most in the end and combination of performance vs design. The new Conductor is no different.  

That said, I can't wait to unbox this baby, burn it in and take it for a proper spin with my trusted HD800s/RS2e...(without spinning the wheels too hard). My use case is exactly what Burson had in mind, a multi-purpose high-end audio machine. I actually use the V2+ more as a pre-amp to drive my secondary system (Audio-gd amp/Dynaudio Xcite 14), and I have nothing but praise for the combo. Totally transparent, highly dynamic, with a deep soundstage. 

I will set the V3 up right next to the already awesome V2+ with the ES9018 and be able to A/B compare them. And I anticipate a pleasant surprise. 

Cheers,   -atmfrank


----------



## 519514 (Sep 23, 2019)

I've spoken to Burson direct and as suggested above, the two headphone jacks will drive two headphones simultaneously, with the one volume knob effecting both outputs. They may build in a software switch to toggle active output between them, meaning you could have different headphones with different power requirements plugged into each, and then switch between them (rather than both playing from your source all of the time).


----------



## vault108

atmfrank said:


> (infrequently active). FWIW: I just received notice that my V3 has been shipped! I jumped in on the pre-order offer without much hesitation, although I am usually not that impulse-driven when it comes to expensive audio gear. With Burson, it's different and I trust their fanatical approach to improve relevant issues in modern audio gear: power, pre-amp stages and...finally DAC performance. I had actually hoped for an ES9038 upgrade module for my V2+. But so be it since I also get a much nicer body, display, and multiple headphone jacks.
> 
> I drive Audi. What most people forget, the inside of a car is where you spend 99% of your time with the car. So....the interior matters a lot, the design and controls have to match the performance and exterior, and so does the look and feel of audio gear. Although it's really the Audi driving performance that matters most in the end and combination of performance vs design. The new Conductor is no different.
> 
> ...


Can I ask when you pre-ordered your Conductor 3?


----------



## atmfrank

Aug 16th


----------



## vault108 (Sep 24, 2019)

atmfrank said:


> Aug 16th


I haven't receive any shipping notice and I pre-ordered on the 8th. 
Last time I ordered some opamps from them and they didn't even send me tracking.


----------



## Eiffel

DarKu said:


> I still didn't get it, but I will soon together with my preliminary impressions, promise


Just curious how this will be compared with the X-Sabre Pro from Matrix. I know you have one of this.
Because that one use 9038 Pro instead. And price is very close.

Honestly I really like how Conductor 3 looks, but the dual 9038 mobile chips for so much money...
I'll rather buy a Topping D50s with the same dual DAC's inside and connect it to a FUN. It's far more cheaper.


----------



## raoultrifan

D50s is really good indeed and it costs about 250-270 EUR with shipping, but you'll still need to add on top of it at least 500-600 EUR for a THX 789 AAA headamp (2 x 6 Watts) with Customs and shipping included (or eBay). Worth mentioning that the Massdrop 789 amp comes with no warranty in Europe, they might swap the unit with a new one, but that means additional shipping charges and Customs payment again (unless using the expensive DHL services).

How I see things, the main advantages of the Conductor 3 would be the one single unit instead of two with a really beefy headphones amplifier inside made with transistors instead of regular opamps. Burson has a R&D department that raises the bar from one year to another and struggles to improve the headamp inside Conductor units, so probably this comes up with additional costs.

I'm also looking further for a side-by-side compare between CV2+ and C3, but also with a side-by-side compare between C3 and X-Sabre Pro.


----------



## Eiffel

There are very few who really need 6W amplifier for headphones.


----------



## alota

Eiffel said:


> There are very few who really need 6W amplifier for headphones.


agree.despite some orthos


----------



## raoultrifan

Most likely, but I prefer the power reserve and the lower THD of an amp running at 25-50% from its max. power than an amp trying hard to keep up with the steps with power hungry planars.


----------



## atmfrank

Received a FedEx tracking number today with delivery date of 10/02. 

About the last comments, we should add that the differentiator between good and excellent audio gear is reflected in the amount of engineering effort. Yes, the extra power reserve may be overkill, and THD is important. For example, it is equally important to have the best possible and fastest power delivery to the circuits in order to retain the full dynamic range in the analog signal reproduction. In fact, there are so many aspects that an audio engineer/circuit designer has to consider. It means there is always a compromise. The higher the degree of engineering effort, the higher the ultimate cost. It depends on how much the consumer is willing to spend. 

Burson happens to project an image of fanatical professional tinkerers who specialize in headphone amp/pre-amp/DAC gear. The reason I like the V2/V3 so much is the added 2x line-in input stage to become a high-end audio utility. I used it as a headphone amp as much as a pre-amp in a proportionally priced (secondary) system. I consider making the V3 replace my main pre-amp. 

To me, the sum of the engineering effort, the use I get it out of it versus the cost represents an exceptional value. Opinions may vary. 

Cheers,


----------



## escalibur

raoultrifan said:


> D50s is really good indeed and it costs about 250-270 EUR with shipping, but you'll still need to add on top of it at least 500-600 EUR for a THX 789 AAA headamp (2 x 6 Watts) with Customs and shipping included (or eBay). Worth mentioning that the Massdrop 789 amp comes with no warranty in Europe, they might swap the unit with a new one, but that means additional shipping charges and Customs payment again (unless using the expensive DHL services).
> 
> How I see things, the main advantages of the Conductor 3 would be the one single unit instead of two with a really beefy headphones amplifier inside made with transistors instead of regular opamps. Burson has a R&D department that raises the bar from one year to another and struggles to improve the headamp inside Conductor units, so probably this comes up with additional costs.
> 
> I'm also looking further for a side-by-side compare between CV2+ and C3, but also with a side-by-side compare between C3 and X-Sabre Pro.


Also comparing separate DACs with separate AMPs has always some risks in terms of design especially if the brands weren't doing any collaboration. Which they rarely do. Burson definitely has an advantage regarding the design where same engineers are taking care of DAC and AMP part as well. This will most likely mean better optimization regarding the components and tunning the design to work on the optimal level.

This doesn't mean that others can't sound good but having the 'whole package' made by the same people can sometimes really have it's advantage as well.


----------



## up late

raoultrifan said:


> D50s is really good indeed and it costs about 250-270 EUR with shipping, but you'll still need to add on top of it at least 500-600 EUR for a THX 789 AAA headamp (2 x 6 Watts) with Customs and shipping included (or eBay). Worth mentioning that the Massdrop 789 amp comes with no warranty in Europe, they might swap the unit with a new one, but that means additional shipping charges and Customs payment again (unless using the expensive DHL services).
> 
> How I see things, the main advantages of the Conductor 3 would be the one single unit instead of two with a really beefy headphones amplifier inside made with transistors instead of regular opamps. Burson has a R&D department that raises the bar from one year to another and struggles to improve the headamp inside Conductor units, so probably this comes up with additional costs.
> 
> I'm also looking further for a side-by-side compare between CV2+ and C3, but also with a side-by-side compare between C3 and X-Sabre Pro.


you're enthusiastic about burson audio and its products, which is fine (i have the cv2+ myself), but there is a paucity of information about the company itself, let alone its "R&D department". are you privy to information about burson audio that i've been unable to find on the interwebs (and believe me i've looked). even the dealer that i purchased my unit from described burson audio as "the banksy of head-fi".


----------



## alota

up late said:


> even the dealer that i purchased my unit from described burson audio as "the banksy of head-fi".


or it´s a machine like terminator?


----------



## up late

alota said:


> or it´s a machine like terminator?


not really. he was referring to burson audio's anonymity.


----------



## raoultrifan

up late said:


> you're enthusiastic about burson audio and its products, which is fine (i have the cv2+ myself), but there is a paucity of information about the company itself, let alone its "R&D department". are you privy to information about burson audio that i've been unable to find on the interwebs (and believe me i've looked). even the dealer that i purchased my unit from described burson audio as "the banksy of head-fi".



Well, it was a reply in a thread (it was related to PLAY, if I remember well), when someone from Burson (Bhav or Alex, can't remember) explained that they simply don't want to pay a large amount of money on advertising, so probably this is the "paucity" you've been talking about. After all, what's written in https://www.bursonaudio.com/about-us/ seems pretty similar to what Schiit and many other companies are using on their About page, but feel free to ping them on their contact page and ask them to create a Head-Fi page dedicated to their team and work.

I am enthusiastic about all companies that are developing their own products, from the scratch, instead of copy-pasting PCB layout from the datasheet and using same component values and opamps. Burson is moving a step forward in R&D and lacking capacitors and opamps from audio path is usually an audiophile thing to do. Unfortunately, this means more money involved in both R&D,  PCB layout design, not mentioning about the Dale resistors and ELNA caps.


----------



## Joong

Eiffel said:


> There are very few who really need 6W amplifier for headphones.


I think the power means control of voice coil and hence more realism onto your music, for example rythmic narture or dynamism.
Simply with more power being too gentle presentation of your music might go away.
I like to listen to the new conductor with high power.


----------



## alota

Joong said:


> I think the power means control of voice coil and hence more realism onto your music, for example rythmic narture or dynamism.
> Simply with more power being too gentle presentation of your music might go away.
> I like to listen to the new conductor with high power.


i had same thinking in the past. i had a massive balanced beta-22 with chokes and double capacitors in the power section. a monster of power. but in the end, the story is not always so simple about a lot of watt


raoultrifan said:


> I am enthusiastic about all companies that are developing their own products, from the scratch, instead of copy-pasting PCB layout from the datasheet and using same component values and opamps. Burson is moving a step forward in R&D and lacking capacitors and opamps from audio path is usually an audiophile thing to do. Unfortunately, this means more money involved in both R&D,  PCB layout design, not mentioning about the Dale resistors and ELNA caps.


me too. i have simpaty for burson, audio-gd, chord...


----------



## Joong

Your past thought is still true when the implementation is correct.
The control requires always enough power without exception.
Control over the enough bandwidth and balanced functions over the devices are always true.


----------



## alota

Joong said:


> Your past thought is still true when the implementation is correct.
> The control requires always enough power without exception.
> Control over the enough bandwidth and balanced functions over the devices are always true.


ahahahah the implementation was correct. don´t worry


----------



## up late (Sep 27, 2019)

raoultrifan said:


> Well, it was a reply in a thread (it was related to PLAY, if I remember well), when someone from Burson (Bhav or Alex, can't remember) explained that they simply don't want to pay a large amount of money on advertising, so probably this is the "paucity" you've been talking about. After all, what's written in https://www.bursonaudio.com/about-us/ seems pretty similar to what Schiit and many other companies are using on their About page, but feel free to ping them on their contact page and ask them to create a Head-Fi page dedicated to their team and work.
> 
> I am enthusiastic about all companies that are developing their own products, from the scratch, instead of copy-pasting PCB layout from the datasheet and using same component values and opamps. Burson is moving a step forward in R&D and lacking capacitors and opamps from audio path is usually an audiophile thing to do. Unfortunately, this means more money involved in both R&D,  PCB layout design, not mentioning about the Dale resistors and ELNA caps.


i recall that post but that's not what i'm referring to. you mentioned schiit audio. if you visit the schiit audio website, you will find information about the company founders mike moffat and jason stoddard. if you go to the contact page, an email address, street address and telephone number is provided. burson audio doesn't provide any detailed information about the individuals behind the company name and it can only be contacted via email or its facebook page.

i did email burson audio some time ago enquiring about the company and where its products are made. i received a courteous reply from alex (surname not provided), but it wasn’t expansive. alex confirmed that burson audio is based in melbourne, australia and advised that while they import a lot of parts from overseas, they do all of the assembly work themselves. it appears that burson audio prefers to "fly under the radar".


----------



## alota

for me and i think it´s clear, production and shipment is from china


----------



## Joong

alota said:


> ahahahah the implementation was correct. don´t worry


There are far more complexities over the signal processing, for example dealing aliases of signals which requires filter design with good knowledge of signal and the system.
Way more than simply amplification with well defined power and ground rails.


----------



## alota

Joong said:


> There are far more complexities over the signal processing, for example dealing aliases of signals which requires filter design with good knowledge of signal and the system.
> Way more than simply amplification with well defined power and ground rails.


yes and agree. my point was that i tried many times amplifiers with a lot of power and performance was not always good with all headphones. so. today, for me the number of watts is not the most important point


----------



## up late

alota said:


> for me and i think it´s clear, production and shipment is from china


that's what i had assumed but alex advised that the assembly work is done in melbourne


----------



## alota (Sep 27, 2019)

up late said:


> that's what i had assumed but alex advised that the assembly work is done in melbourne


strange. so assembled in australia, after sent to warehouse in china?
another strange situation, sometimes he doesn't send the tracking


----------



## Eiffel

Joong said:


> I think the power means control of voice coil and hence more realism onto your music, for example rythmic narture or dynamism.
> Simply with more power being too gentle presentation of your music might go away.
> I like to listen to the new conductor with high power.


It only depends on your headphones and their efficiency.
Having a power reserve is very good, but having a HUGE power reserve it's a waste if you don't really need it.

For me even Play/Fun are too powerful as I have to keep the volume at only 5 maximum. I have no headphones who need more. And that's for 250 ohms headphones - DT1990Pro.

There are very few headphones on the market who will benefit from the 6w amplifier.


----------



## Eiffel

up late said:


> that's what i had assumed but alex advised that the assembly work is done in melbourne


Some of their top products were assembled in Australia in the past, so why not this one ?


----------



## raoultrifan

Eiffel said:


> It only depends on your headphones and their efficiency.
> Having a power reserve is very good, but having a HUGE power reserve it's a waste if you don't really need it.
> 
> For me even Play/Fun are too powerful as I have to keep the volume at only 5 maximum. I have no headphones who need more. And that's for 250 ohms headphones - DT1990Pro.
> ...



Well, C3-Ref outputs a bit over 13V RMS, that would be 280mW/600 Ohms cans, so not quite a huge power reserve, but will definitely drive high impedance cans. The fact that the output stage is able to sustain so much current makes this a powerful amplifier for low-impedance cans (>5W/32Ohms).


----------



## Mouseman

The mid-to-higher-end audio world is a very strange one. Just pick up a copy of Audiophile and it's evident that the even C3 could be considered  "affordable" compared to $3K turntable arms and $6K needles made out of unobtanium. So for me, if Burson wants to keep a low profile and keep churning out quality gear, it's OK. I'd rather they didn't spend all their money building and driving a hype train while releasing poor quality but well-advertised gear. I love my Playmate with the Everest combo of opamps, and I look forward to seeing the reviews of the C3 once people start receiving their units.


----------



## alota

Eiffel said:


> It only depends on your headphones and their efficiency.
> Having a power reserve is very good, but having a HUGE power reserve it's a waste if you don't really need it.
> 
> For me even Play/Fun are too powerful as I have to keep the volume at only 5 maximum. I have no headphones who need more. And that's for 250 ohms headphones - DT1990Pro.
> ...


in my playmate, with my phone, i´m aroud 50%


Mouseman said:


> I love my Playmate with the Everest combo of opamps, and I look forward to seeing the reviews of the C3 once people start receiving their units.


i have same playmate like you. soon i will buy a chord hugo tt. i´m really curious to listen differences between hugo and playmate


----------



## peter123

alota said:


> for me and i think it´s clear, production and shipment is from china



Based on what? 

I've never had a product from them shipped from any other place than Australia and I'm pretty sure that they ship to customers in the US from within the US (I'm sure they used to anyway).


----------



## alota

peter123 said:


> Based on what?
> 
> I've never had a product from them shipped from any other place than Australia and I'm pretty sure that they ship to customers in the US from within the US (I'm sure they used to anyway).


three orders received from china


----------



## up late

Eiffel said:


> Some of their top products were assembled in Australia in the past, so why not this one ?


 i'm not suggesting that it isn't


----------



## up late

alota said:


> strange. so assembled in australia, after sent to warehouse in china?
> another strange situation, sometimes he doesn't send the tracking


i wouldn't know about that. i'm just relaying what he told me.


----------



## raoultrifan

HK, I guessm r


alota said:


> three orders received from china



Most likely HK, not CH, but that's something that happens in all non-Asian companies when they're lunching a new product in several hundreds batches. This is due to the lack of PCB manufacturing and soldering automated machines in that specific continent, and not to the manufacturer/designer company.

I'm going to explain a short story here: there's this friend of mine that was working as a technical engineer for an European company, providing support for huge machines that were implementing integrated chips, PCBs, automated soldering etc.. After 10 years of travelling to Asia, because 100% of those machines were located in Asia, not in Europe, he left the company, mostly because of his family that was living in Europe. What I'm trying to say is that if you want to do several hundred of PCB's per day you simply don't find in your continent such a machine to help you out fast enough, so you'll need to externalize this. Not sure if that's the case of Burson Audio, but this might be the case. Maybe they build small batches inside Australia, from head to tail, but maybe for bigger batches they're using machines from Asia...who knows...I personally don't care as long as the final works looks absolutely neat and perfect.

In the end all it matters is the final warranty, and from what I've seen here on Head-Fi, Burson Audio seems to be the only company I've heard that is RMA'ing internal parts and power adapters without even requesting its customers to send back the defective product (not sure this applies to all RMAs, but for sure it applies to blown chips or evident PCB or electronics issue), really expensive for the customers, given that most are from different continents. I would love Google and others to learn from how Burson deals in resolving RMA, because my Chromecast died in the first minutes, just after the first firmware upgrade; sending it back to US makes no sense to me, because the 2-way shipping will cost me twice the product itself.


----------



## alota (Sep 28, 2019)

up late said:


> i wouldn't know about that. i'm just relaying what he told me.


I believe you
@raoultrifan  i believe in the past part of production in australia. I think new concept line like play family and conductor v3 are built in china. Otherwise it is impossible this level of prices


----------



## Anvahi

Hello,
I've been reading here in the forum for a while now and have registered, because there is not so much to read about the Conductor 3 Ref in German forums yet, respectively it's not discussed.
I got my C3 today and am happy to show you the first custom pictures, unfortunately only at my workplace.


----------



## raoultrifan

Welcome to Head-Fi and glad to see the first headfier owner of a C3-Ref. combo.

I know about the existence of http://www.hifi-forum.de/, but of course I don't know what they're talking about there. 

At your workplace you say? What do you mean? You should not sleep tonight and test this baby with all the headphones you have; entire Head-Fi community is waiting for your first thoughts. 

However, take your time and a big breath and let us know how it sound.

Thank you, 
Raul.


----------



## Anvahi (Sep 30, 2019)

Hello, Raoul,
of course I know the hifi-forum, but Burson isn't discussed so regularly here.

I am really a very happy person today.

My working day started with driving into my company's parking lot with the FedEx employee and knowing that my parcel was on its way, I had to get out of the car smiling. I've actually been waiting for the CV3 since the beginning of this year and imported a Playmate Everest to bridge the gap.

Since I only used a DIY headamp without DAC before the Playmate, I can only compare the CV3 with this one, even if the comparison here is a bit limp...

My first thoughts about the CV3:
I imagined the CV3 to be a bit smaller based on the pictures. Alex von Burson had given me the measurements and pictures in advance and put them in relation to the CV2, but since I don't own it, I was a bit surprised. The workmanship is flawless and the material appearance is very high quality. The new case scores very well due to its narrower lines. By this I mean both the less pronounced front, which is additionally rounded, and the fins of the case, which are used for better heat dissipation. The "industrial" look of the amplifier has once again increased its value and I like it very much, both on its own and on my desk.  I would be interested to know how it looks on a hifi rack, because here I personally see the look of the CV2 a bit ahead due to its clear and straight construction. Since I will use the amplifier exclusively on the computer, I am very happy about the new case.

My setup:
As I said, I operate the CV3 exclusively on the computer and therefore directly via USB.
As headphones I use an Audeze LCD-XC.

In general:
I'm certainly a very bad first owner, because I don't have a large selection of headphones to listen to, nor do I have a special taste in music. I started my studies with a self-made amp and a Bayerdynamic DT770 250Ohm (which was a lot of money for me about 10 years ago) and am very happy that I could improve my signal chain (LCD-XC already last year) bit by bit.

Sound impression:
It's positive that the CV3 doesn't have any background noise. Sometimes, like right now, I just wear my closed headphones so I can concentrate better when my girlfriend sees Tv in the same room.

Then it becomes obvious that the output power of the CV3 is a bit higher compared to the Playmate. When I heard Playmate at level 20 (Windows 100%), I had to lower the CV3 to level 10 and Windows 90%.

Also the CV3 doesn't get as warm on the case as the Playmate did. Here the optimized heat dissipation and the larger surface seem to work well.

I just listened to the test for a few hours. From Rapsongs over live Rap battles to Rock, Popsongs and Classic (Orchestra, Piano, etc.) everything was there.

In a direct comparison I would like to say that the CV3 sounds a whole step more dynamic and above all more powerful than the Playmate. The stage is outstanding!! Every single instrument is perfectly represented and can be assigned perfectly on stage. Just now I heard a rattle in the background and had to grin again...

Even if I am very satisfied, I am looking forward to further impressions and the first test reports.

If you have any questions, I will gladly try to answer them.

*edit:*
I still have a supplement.
The CV3 has two outputs, which have already been discussed here. Since I currently have a Mr Speaker Ether Flow closed 1.1 for rehearsal here, I was able to show my girlfriend perfectly that there are differences in headphones.
We plugged in both the headphones (LCD-XC and Mr Speaker Ether Flow 1.1) and the last song (Armin van Buuren - Blah Blah Blah) which I listened to as an A/B test alternating with both headphones.

Where the Mr. Speaker sounded completely lifeless, the LCD-XC could play its whole class and was much more present and took up much more space.

Certainly another topic but I had a positive experience with the second exit right on the first evening!


----------



## Marutks

Does it have USB-C port?


----------



## andrewjamesdean

From the pictures I can see the two RCA inputs, and the optical toslink (with the black plug in it), but what is the port above that? Looks like a digital coax, but that's not listed in the specs. And is the USB input a USB-C?


----------



## vault108

Mine is coming this Friday. The tracking from FedEx say it's shipped from Hong Kong.


----------



## raoultrifan

Marutks said:


> Does it have USB-C port?


It seems to be USB-C there on the backside, but I'm sure the other end of the cable is a full-size USB-A plug.



andrewjamesdean said:


> From the pictures I can see the two RCA inputs, and the optical toslink (with the black plug in it), but what is the port above that? Looks like a digital coax, but that's not listed in the specs. And is the USB input a USB-C?


It looks like optical and COAX for sure, good observation. Waiting for @Anvahi to double check and confirm.



Anvahi said:


> [...]
> Then it becomes obvious that the output power of the CV3 is a bit higher compared to the Playmate. When I heard Playmate at level 20 (Windows 100%), I had to lower the CV3 to level 10 and Windows 90%.
> [...]


Isn't there a gain adjust option within the menus?


----------



## Anvahi

raoultrifan said:


> It seems to be USB-C there on the backside, but I'm sure the other end of the cable is a full-size USB-A plug.


You're absolutely right.
Included in delivery is a USB C/A adapter with which you can connect the amplifier to the PC.



raoultrifan said:


> It looks like optical and COAX for sure, good observation.


Recognized again.



raoultrifan said:


> Isn't there a gain adjust option within the menus?


No, the setting options are kept to a minimum. It is the same menu as it was with the Playmate.

When I find some time later, I'll take some detail pictures.


----------



## raoultrifan

Playmate has gain-adjust option within the menu.


----------



## Anvahi

raoultrifan said:


> Playmate has gain-adjust option within the menu.



These are Playmates Menu Items which i think are the same on the CV3.
Do u mean HP Output? While testing i havent changed the settings so the default "high" was set for both Headphones.


----------



## Compton (Oct 1, 2019)

HP output means Gain.
In Playmate High Gain drives very well every king of headphones, no matter of their impedance.
There is more dynamic, speed and bass control.


----------



## karmazynowy (Oct 1, 2019)

You can change gain in settings
LOW/HIGH

But be carefull, make the volume down first as the change is drastic.


----------



## raoultrifan

Hey, @karmazynowy, good news, you got your CV3 too. Looking forward for your opinion.


----------



## nzvlam

Just got mine today


----------



## atmfrank

And another one has landed. The older brother is a bit worried about the new arrival. Started the burn-in, but my first and very pre-mature impressions: just a tad better right from the get-go! More immediate presence, mode detail, more depth. 

A little disappointed about the change from USB 2.0 type B, which most other gear has. And the power supply is a beefy switching brick made in China? What happened to the philosophy of designing the power feeds with first-grade high-density dual transformers as we have in the V2+? In time I like to get to the bottom of this. But for now, I am just enjoying the moment letting the music ooze out of my trusted 800s. 

Cheers,


----------



## raoultrifan

You lucky bastards! 

BTW, anyone care for some audio thoughts and perhaps an A/B test between CV2 and C3-Ref?

@atmfrank this has been discussed since over an year, it's about https://www.bursonaudio.com/about-us/max-current-power-supply/ and the replacement of the transformer and the big reservoir caps with instant current delivery boost-converters. This will reduce the final size of the audio equipment and eliminate mains hum (even if transformer is shielded) and lower the probability to get the big caps defective (there are no big caps anymore, because there're no needed).


----------



## atmfrank (Oct 2, 2019)

Yes, I realize that I have been asleep at the wheel. I read the Burson MCPS article a while ago, but somehow in my excitement forgot all about it. And actually, when I think about why I trusted them and bought the V3 unreviewed, the main reason is the Burson guys keep innovating and challenging the status quo. Thanks for the reminder. I enjoy the music even more now 

I am testing the various input options, while burning it in. All I can say is: better all around. I am using an RPI3/Kali/Piano2.1 combo on analog 1 and even that sounds better than on the V2+. But it's really too early to tell what "better"' specifically means to my ears. I now moved to COAX input using an Allo DigiOne as the source with LMS/Squeeze upsampled to 192k (-vLX of course). Music source is a 320K MP3 classic stream (yea I know...). Chamber music. That also sounds pretty amazing. I feel like sitting right in the first row. Very open soundstage, excellent detail.


----------



## andrewjamesdean

Burson has confirmed that all units have been undergone 100 hours of burn-in prior to shipping


----------



## atmfrank (Oct 2, 2019)

Burn-in as in what exactly? The box of my unit says "288", assuming I received unit #288 from Hongkong. I doubt that any serious burn-in can take place for all those units in the shipping dock, with the pressure of getting them out to eagerly waiting customers. Perhaps the power was turned up, but it needs high-db levels white/pink noise on all inputs and serious load on the output. 

While I am writing this...I am now having another great experience (Pat Metheney - The Road To You), using Bluetooth in APTX mode (LG V35/USB Audio Player Pro). I chose this because there are many silent passages, which allow some true testing on the quietness, details at the lowest levels while the recording has a good dynamic range. The results are just amazing!

To those who are still waiting for delivery, I dearly apologize for the bragging. But this thing is a little gem.

What I come away with so far, it's less the upgraded 9038 DAC, but the sum of all the engineering that went into the V3. The MCPS supply method must be the main contributor.


----------



## atmfrank (Oct 3, 2019)

Last post for tonight. Back to the USB input, which directly tests the ES9038. Source: Mac/Audirvana/IfiSilencer/Burson supplied USB-C cable (baahhh!), my standard V2+ settings: upsample/convert to DSD128/B7. Music: Ahmed Jamal - Marseille in 24/192 FLAC. A fine piano jazz recording. The music has a *very* noticeable increase in presence, an airy/open soundstage and a huge dynamic range. I feel like being right there in the studio....or being at an audio show auditioning $40k worth of equipment...which I definitely don't have.


----------



## Anvahi

andrewjamesdean said:


> Burson has confirmed that all units have been undergone 100 hours of burn-in prior to shipping



This is what Dennis (Burson) told me about the burn in process:
"Please remember to allow for at least 100 hours of burn-in. Because the QC burn-in process is different from the actual playback burn-in. So, you will notice the sound getting more mature and open after the burn-in time. "


----------



## atmfrank (Oct 5, 2019)

Before I reach out to Burson support on this...is anyone here familiar with Squeezeplayer configurations? The V3 SPDIF/Coax input appears to be limited to 96000 max sampling rate. I am unable to push anything higher, neither with upsample settings or high sample-rate source material. 24/192 tracks play only with re-sample settings turned on. Current flags are: -u vLX -r 96000 -D.

I also tried Volumio (latest release) which has the same issue.

Strangely, DSD 64 and 128 source material plays fine, but the input display indicator on the Burson V3 remains at PCM 96k. On the older V2+ I was able to push to 176000 re-sample settings for PCM.

Curious to hear if anyone else has similar issues using a digital transport. Mine is an Allo DigiOne.


----------



## selvakumar

raoultrifan said:


> Welcome to Head-Fi and glad to see the first headfier owner of a C3-Ref. combo.
> 
> I know about the existence of http://www.hifi-forum.de/, but of course I don't know what they're talking about there.
> 
> ...





Anvahi said:


> Hello,
> I've been reading here in the forum for a while now and have registered, because there is not so much to read about the Conductor 3 Ref in German forums yet, respectively it's not discussed.
> I got my C3 today and am happy to show you the first custom pictures, unfortunately only at my workplace.


tell your first impression we all are waiting for your response


----------



## Anvahi

selvakumar said:


> tell your first impression we all are waiting for your response



Hello,
i´ve allready wrote down my firt impressions in Post 157.


----------



## vault108

Some pictures of my Burson Conductor 3.
Back




Front




Extra sets of opamps




Accessories (power adapter/cable, USB-C to USB-A cable, opamps, extra fuse, remote, and hex key)




Inner (unscrew the 4 hex screws on the underside and lift top open)


----------



## atmfrank (Oct 7, 2019)

Six days into it, I clocked about 50 hrs. of active burn-in and listening sessions on USB, Coax/SPDIF, RCA line-in, Bluetooth. The latter only for a quick session. The overall experience is a major and very noticeable improvement in every category over the V2+. Primarily it is the level of detail, intimacy, separation of the instruments and spatial imaging. I can't get myself weaned off the V3 because of the addictive quality. Again, it is difficult to quantify the "how much better" question and whether it's worth the expense. All I can say, I have made up my mind without hesitation.

Source material:
USB: FLAC 16/44.1-24/192, DSD64/128, upsampled FLAC to DSD256, haven't tried DSD512 yet. Either local music files or streaming FLAC upsampled to DSD64 in Foobar2000.
SPDIF: FLAC 16/44.1-24/96 and DSD64/128

On the coax/SPDIF input, for some reason, I cannot push the PCM sample rate higher than 96kHz. Setup: Allo DigiOne/Logitech LMS/Squeezeplayer/Sox/foo_dsd etc.

DPLL(DSD): mid (loses lock when set to low)
DPLL(PCM): low

The RCA inputs also provide an upgraded experience. Both units have the same V6 opamps, but for whatever reason my outboard Allo Piano2.1 (w/ Kali) DAC sounds now a tad sweeter and full-bodied.
Overall, the Burson website description of the sound characteristics is spot-on and accurate. Nothing more to add other than "YES" to "reference-class".

A little oddity with the LED display: when the RCA input is selected, I see "PCM 192k" on the display.

Listening is done with HD800s.


----------



## vault108 (Oct 7, 2019)

My Foobar settings:
I use Super Audio CD Decoder to upsample playback to DSD256.
https://sourceforge.net/projects/sacddecoder/files/foo_input_sacd/





DSD: WASAPI (push): Speakers (BursonAudio USB Audio 2.0)




DSD Processor settings (I can't get DSD512 output to work, same with iFi Micro Black Label. If you got DSD512 to work, let me know?)





 Burson Conductor 3 has white noise (hiss) with Solaris (sensitive IEM, i.e.. Zeus, Andromeda) even on Low gain. That’s my main disappointment with the device. The other is I can’t upsample to DSD512. The sound is amazing out of my Mr. Speaker Ether 2. I haven’t test with my other headphones. The device do get slightly warm after long session.


----------



## raoultrifan

vault108 said:


> [...]
> Burson Conductor 3 has white noise (hiss) with Solaris (sensitive IEM, i.e.. Zeus, Andromeda) even on Low gain. That’s my main disappointment with the device. The other is I can’t upsample to DSD512. The sound is amazing out of my Mr. Speaker Ether 2. I haven’t test with my other headphones. The device do get slightly warm after long session.



Based on https://reference-audio-analyzer.pro/en/user-report.php?id=1350 these 16 Ohms IEMs are having a sensitivity of 121dB/mW, so it's impossible to use such a powerful amplifier like C3-Ref to drive these kind of headphones. After all, we're speaking about a 7.5W/channel amplifier driving IEMs that for only 1mW (125mV RMS) will deliver 121dB SPL, right? Then C3-Ref is putting a max. output power of 7.5W/16Ohms cans, that would be 11V RMS!!!

The internal gain of C3-Ref. is done via the built-in firmware and not with dedicated gain switches that commutes between different resistors values, so the output stage and gain stage will still be directly connected to your headphones at their max. internal gain, so the same output noise will be in your headphones no matter the gain chosen.


----------



## atmfrank (Oct 8, 2019)

I have no problems with DSD256, no glitches or lock problems. But DSD512 on Foobar doesn't work for me either. Not a show stopper, as I had the same experience with a Chord Mojo which is capable of 768k PCM. It shouldn't be an issue with your headphones.

Have you tried adjusting the DPLL settings for DSD/PCM?


----------



## atmfrank (Oct 8, 2019)

raoultrifan said:


> Based on https://reference-audio-analyzer.pro/en/user-report.php?id=1350 these 16 Ohms IEMs are having a sensitivity of 121dB/mW, so it's impossible to use such a powerful amplifier like C3-Ref to drive these kind of headphones. After all, we're speaking about a 7.5W/channel amplifier driving IEMs that for only 1mW (125mV RMS) will deliver 121dB SPL, right? Then C3-Ref is putting a max. output power of 7.5W/16Ohms cans, that would be 11V RMS!!!
> 
> The internal gain of C3-Ref. is done via the built-in firmware and not with dedicated gain switches that commutes between different resistors values, so the output stage and gain stage will still be directly connected to your headphones at their max. internal gain, so the same output noise will be in your headphones no matter the gain chosen.



Update: I now switched to my Grado RS2e with 32Ohm for testing and I now experience some drops in DSD256. Is there a correlation of low impedance headphones and DAC conversion performance?

I set DPLL(DSD) to Hi and was able to get a cleaner signal. Still hearing some glitches though.


----------



## andrewjamesdean

is this unit firmware updateable?


----------



## buson160man (Oct 9, 2019)

well I received my conductor3 today. first impressions were pretty well made.  Case not quite as heavy as in my old ha-160. surprised by the outboard power supply reminiscent of a lap top computer power supply. Did not see any fuse inputs or from pictures of the internals. On my old ha-160 I had uograded the fuse to a hifi tuning fuse which made a noticeable improvement in the sound also got a pretty substantial improvement when i upgraded the power cables to after market IEC cords. No possibility of that here on the new unit. I was using a project s2 dac pre . I had upgraded the power supply on that unit with projects outboard power supply which uses batteries. That made a huge improvement in the low level information and noise levels of that unit. it is a world beater at the combined 650 usd cost of the dac and power supply. It is going to be interesting to do a comparison between it and the new conductor 3 once I have some burn in time on it. I am hoping the burson will be an improvement over it . B ut I shall see. The project is a very high performance unit with the outboard battery power that project makes for it. I am using a yamaha cd 2100 as  transport feeding the dacs. I have a nordost mid level power cord on the yamaha cd player. The project dac smoked the dac section of this 3000 dollar cd player. For now I have to run the new dac in for awhile before I can make any judgements .


----------



## atmfrank

andrewjamesdean said:


> is this unit firmware updateable?



If past experience serves as a reference, then no. I have a question pending with Burson support about this for the V3. The response I received for the same question re: V2+ was no.


----------



## raoultrifan

vault108 said:


> Some pictures of my Burson Conductor 3.
> [...]



Wondering what those 7 chips from the middle are? LM317/337 linear regulators? Thank you!


----------



## vault108

raoultrifan said:


> Wondering what those 7 chips from the middle are? LM317/337 linear regulators? Thank you!


They’re LM337.


----------



## raoultrifan

Thanks @vault108, but I guess there're LM317 too, right?

However, it's very clever from BURSON to use linear regs as followers after the boost-converters. This will lower the probability of any possible oscillations (very unlikely) and lower the background noise even more. If the drop-voltage on the LM3x7 LDO's is less than 5V, then overall efficiency will not suffer.


----------



## vault108

raoultrifan said:


> Thanks @vault108, but I guess there're LM317 too, right?
> 
> However, it's very clever from BURSON to use linear regs as followers after the boost-converters. This will lower the probability of any possible oscillations (very unlikely) and lower the background noise even more. If the drop-voltage on the LM3x7 LDO's is less than 5V, then overall efficiency will not suffer.


There are three LM317, three LM337, and one 78M12 linear voltage regulators in the middle.


----------



## atmfrank

andrewjamesdean said:


> is this unit firmware updateable?



Alex from Burson responded and to my surprise, the answer is Yes to user-upgradable firmware (over the USB-C)


----------



## Joong (Oct 9, 2019)

raoultrifan said:


> Thanks @vault108, but I guess there're LM317 too, right?
> 
> However, it's very clever from BURSON to use linear regs as followers after the boost-converters. This will lower the probability of any possible oscillations (very unlikely) and lower the background noise even more. If the drop-voltage on the LM3x7 LDO's is less than 5V, then overall efficiency will not suffer.


They are following a state of arts in concerned industry.
All different rail requirement of active devices of their choices, requires those well behaviored LDOs.
Just after upconverter the voltage is ok only for power transisters with high volatge swing...
LDO is lossy as active resistive network, but having guaranteed stability with long history.

They realize they belong to general trend of the electric and electronic industry, where audio ones have no exception.
Often times some audio industry had taken its exreme end in the name of minimalist that often ignores linearity, and power.
Burson now stays away from those extremists who have no future.


----------



## a86709286

raoultrifan said:


> Based on https://reference-audio-analyzer.pro/en/user-report.php?id=1350 these 16 Ohms IEMs are having a sensitivity of 121dB/mW, so it's impossible to use such a powerful amplifier like C3-Ref to drive these kind of headphones. After all, we're speaking about a 7.5W/channel amplifier driving IEMs that for only 1mW (125mV RMS) will deliver 121dB SPL, right? Then C3-Ref is putting a max. output power of 7.5W/16Ohms cans, that would be 11V RMS!!!
> 
> The internal gain of C3-Ref. is done via the built-in firmware and not with dedicated gain switches that commutes between different resistors values, so the output stage and gain stage will still be directly connected to your headphones at their max. internal gain, so the same output noise will be in your headphones no matter the gain chosen.


So IEMs like Andromeda wouldn't work with C3? I'm having similar problem with white noise on my Andro paired with C3. The focal clear sounds amazing on it though


----------



## raoultrifan

Maybe they'll pair well with C3-Ref, but not sure why purchasing a 7500mW amplifier to drive few mW IEM headphones? It's overkill, at least from my perspective.

The huge advantage of the C3-Ref. is that it can easily drive hard-to-drive cans and regular cans as well. If it will work or not with sensitive IEMs that is a different story.


----------



## a86709286

raoultrifan said:


> Maybe they'll pair well with C3-Ref, but not sure why purchasing a 7500mW amplifier to drive few mW IEM headphones? It's overkill, at least from my perspective.
> 
> The huge advantage of the C3-Ref. is that it can easily drive hard-to-drive cans and regular cans as well. If it will work or not with sensitive IEMs that is a different story.


Yeah definitely agree, I'm just playing around with it at the moment. Thanks for the reply though. What cans are you pairing your C3 with if you don't me asking?


----------



## buson160man

well it is now day 3 since I powered the conductor 3 up. I have been listening to it and the unit is improving. It is very analogue like. the thing that I noticed is the subtleties of the sound bring produced. There is a refined quality to the sound. I am leaving the unit powered up to speed up the break in process. The unit does get pretty warm after extended listening Especially the bottom plate.


----------



## cubeover

What opamps does V3 come with?


----------



## alota

cubeover said:


> What opamps does V3 come with?


4 v6 vivid


----------



## raoultrifan

a86709286 said:


> [...]What cans are you pairing your C3 with if you don't me asking?


I don't have CV3, but I do have CV2+, about the same power, so same consideration and opinion about using sensitive IEMs.


----------



## alota (Oct 12, 2019)

@raoultrifan  agree with you about iem. Considering usual impedance of 16-32 ohm, the output power of c3 is too much(from 10 to 7 watt). For example, audio-gd in the site reports that the amplifiers are not suitable for iem.
In my opinion is a crazyness to drive iem in balanced mode with dap.
P.s. when i had my beta 22 i drove a grado ps1000 in balanced mode. So around 12 watt for a normal headphone. Was a completely absurd.


----------



## a86709286

vault108 said:


> My Foobar settings:
> I use Super Audio CD Decoder to upsample playback to DSD256.
> https://sourceforge.net/projects/sacddecoder/files/foo_input_sacd/
> 
> ...


I'm fairly new to this, what does each setting mean? Does it upscale 44.1 kHz file to DSD256? And why are you setting DSD512 input to DSD256 output? Sorry if it seems like a dumb question.


----------



## vault108

a86709286 said:


> I'm fairly new to this, what does each setting mean? Does it upscale 44.1 kHz file to DSD256? And why are you setting DSD512 input to DSD256 output? Sorry if it seems like a dumb question.


The settings are for upsampling audio to DSD256 since I can’t get DSD512 to work.


----------



## atmfrank

I posted this for my friends on FB, most of them unfamiliar with Burson Audio. I figured it belongs here too: 

A little story from the past and present. Those who know me a little bit over the years know that I have a few hobbies to account for. Some may say I have expensive hobbies. My current affliction and reason to write this goes back to my teenage years when I pondered things like frequency range, distortion rates (is 0.1% THD good or bad??) and DIN 45500 (the HIFI norm). I was so proud of my first ITT Schaub Lorenz Stereo receiver with UKW (Stereo FM) and Beyer Dynamik DT headphones, it opened up a whole and an otherwise unattainable virtual world (growing up in West-Berlin with a physical wall around…). I recall listening to Alan Bangs of the BFBS, Wolfman Jack on AFN, on the terrible AM band. Alan Bangs was mostly stoned, hosted a 2-hour radio show Saturday’s from 22:00 to midnight, with stream-of-thought poetry and cool progressive UK music (mum’s nightmare, if she only knew what I had playing on those headphones…) I recall listening to Pink Floyd - Umma Gumma dosing off late-night only to the get violently startled by the manic scream in “Careful with the Axe Eugene”. I realized I was getting high on MUSIC without any real drugs involved...and it happened so many times  A wonderful world and escape from reality.

Fast forward, nothing much has changed. Except my wallet is a little thicker with extra disposable income which makes it easier to feel less guilty about (occasionally) splurging on good HIFI gear. Nobody cares about DIN 4550 anymore and the term "HIFI" is old-fashioned, superseded by “Hi-Res” or “HD”. Everything is “HD” these days, but those basic norms back then would certainly not cut it anymore today.

And I am not talking about Sonos, Dr. Beat or Pepper or whatever other mass-consumer brand aims to take over the world. The story is about the “Banksy of Head-Fi”, as one blogger lovingly and recently described the company of which my latest affliction is all about: Burson Audio from Melbourne, AU, which specializes in headphone amps.

When was the last time you had shivers going down your back because something extraordinary pleasant or unexpected just happened? That was about the experience I had with the new version of the Conductor V3, which, unboxed and hastily connected to the laptop and Sennheiser headphones, provided that unexpected shiver down the spine. What may have caused it, I wondered. The level of detail in the reproduction, presentation and the dynamic presence made it happen. I felt like sitting in the first row of a Pat Metheney live concert, or in the studio of an Ahmed Jamal piano jazz recording, visualizing every instrument placed in the studio. A new meaning of “live” came to mind.

My ears have evolved and decayed over the years. Decayed for the high-frequency reception due to age, but evolved for the ability to “hear”, which is better than ever before. The Burson experience plays right into this, and it also felt a bit like a throw-back of the familiar HIFI experience back then, some 50 years ago now, but for different reasons.

Today it’s about the refinement of music, the live experience which can be equally satisfying depending on everyone’s personal taste. Sadly, most music productions in this day and age are crap, and I am sorry to be so blunt. You actually have to look for good recordings and well-produced music to appreciate the good ones. It takes dedication, patience and the willingness to step out into unchartered territory. Burson Audio has done this with their products, stepped out of the norm to develop something innovative and special. And while challenging the common Engineering approach, their gear remains affordable in part because they are not investing in big advertising budgets. The “Banksy of HIFI”.

Last year I bought their Conductor V2+ headphone DAC and pre-amp because I wanted to focus on good headphone reproduction. When they announced the new V3 this year, with the latest DAC technology and innovative power supply improvements, I pre-ordered one blindly. Usually, I wait, procrastinate and read endless reviews written by people who are 10 times more obsessed and equipped than myself, before making a purchase decision. Not so this time around. Instinct and blind trust took got the better of me.

And here it goes, the Conductor V3, or shall I say the “Herbert von Karajan” of headphone amps (Karajan was the most intense and brilliant conductor I have known - a German..) has arrived at my home, giving me shivers down the spine.

I can easily push DSD128/256 (upsampled) for all my digital music sources The RCA line-in inputs work well for vinyl and auxiliary sources (Raspberry Pi streamers). 0.0015% THD....the results are amazing.

Anyone interested in coming by for a sampling paired with some good Italian wine, I am more than happy to share some shivers with.


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## cubeover

alota said:


> 4 v6 vivid


Singles or Doubles?


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## karmazynowy

cubeover said:


> Singles or Doubles?



2 single
2 double


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## Gradius

atmfrank said:


> I can easily push DSD128/256 (upsampled) for all my digital music sources The RCA line-in inputs work well for vinyl and auxiliary sources (Raspberry Pi streamers). 0.0015% THD....the results are amazing.
> 
> Anyone interested in coming by for a sampling paired with some good Italian wine, I am more than happy to share some shivers with.



Hmm, your photos looks cute/better than those from official site.

Btw, Chilean's wine is better.


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## Gradius

Anyone compared this to the RME ADI-2 fs DAC ?


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## buson160man (Oct 18, 2019)

I have over one hundred and fifty hours on the conductor and it is sounding pretty settled in by now. I was wondering what the best options in the settings for the most resolution in reproduction. i am a cd guy and i listen to cds exclusively. i still have some listening to do to form an honest opinion of the sound that the new conductor reproduces. II have had experience with this dac chip with the project s2 dac/pre using the optional battery power supply that project makes for the  s2 line. At this point I am feeling that at least in my opinion at this time that the project s2 dac has an advantage in the noise area being completely isolated from the power grid. I hear more low level information with the project s2 dac but some of what I am hearing may be due to projects exclusive optimal transient filter that project offers on the s2 dac/pre. That is why I am asking anyone for their findings of the best settings to get the most resolution from the conductor 3. these findings are based on the projects 2 dac being used as just a dac. Obviously the headphone amp on offer in the burson is on an entirely different level. Offering the kind of power it does it definitely is superior to the afterthought basic headphone amp offering in the project s2 dac/pre. I was using my old burson ha160 to drive the output of the project s2 dac/pre. The old burson HA160 is still a pretty decent unit after all this time. The ha 160 benefits enormously when you upgrade the fuse to a premium audiophile fuse and upgrade the power cord to an audiophile type as well as using some good isolation feet under the ha 160 .So  I would appreciate any advice in getting the best resolution settings for the conductor 3.


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## cubeover (Oct 19, 2019)

It is interesting that you find resolution of Burson C3 lacking. I found it master of high-res.
What is your device source and its output format?
What resolution is your source material?
Note that in case of using a computer, you typically set a fixed format in the OS, that may or may not match your source material resolution. The mismatch is to be avoided, as then you would depend on Apple's or Microsoft's way of upsampling or downsampling your music, before it even reaches your DAC.


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## vault108

Anyone get USB Audio to work with Burson C3? I can’t audio from my Phone or DAP to output from USB-C to C3. I’ve tried several different cables, but no luck. Bluetooth audio work fine from my phone to C3.


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## buson160man

cubeover said:


> It is interesting that you find resolution of Burson C3 lacking. I found it master of high-res.
> What is your device source and its output format?
> What resolution is your source material?
> Note that in case of using a computer, you typically set a fixed format in the OS, that may or may not match your source material resolution. The mismatch is to be avoided, as then you would depend on Apple's or Microsoft's way of upsampling or downsampling your music, before it even reaches your DAC.


I mentioned that i
 am acd guy and That i spin cds.The comments i made were based on what I heard in my set up compared to the project  audio dac/pre s2 model with the optional battery power supply.Hooked up to a Burson HA-160 headphone amp.Which has the hi fi tuning supreme fuse in it and a audiophile IEC power cord. with the iso acoustics orea isolation feet. I commented the project s2 pre/dac had the optional battery power supply that they offer for s2 components. I feel that the battery power which is totally independent of the power mains has a definite advantage over the power supply burson uses on the conductor 3. I hear more extremely low level information on the project s2 dac that the burson conductor 3 misses. I attribute that it is the battery power supply which is quieter than the bursons mains supply.


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## atmfrank (Oct 20, 2019)

vault108 said:


> Anyone get USB Audio to work with Burson C3? I can’t audio from my Phone or DAP to output from USB-C to C3. I’ve tried several different cables, but no luck. Bluetooth audio work fine from my phone to C3.



Yes, no problem here. Ingredients: LG V30 Android with USB Pro software, USB-C adapter. Software settings are fairly advanced. Upsample to max-multiple/integer. Source is Audiophile Lounge streaming radio (MP3/320k - 16/44.1), but local music works also, MP3, FLAC, DSD. No special settings on the V3.

I should add that there are intermittent problems and getting sound is not reliable. 

If you have an iPhone, you might need to get special software as well. Best of luck.


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## vault108 (Oct 20, 2019)

atmfrank said:


> Yes, no problem here. Ingredients: LG V30 Android with USB Pro software, USB-C adapter. Software settings are fairly advanced. Upsample to max-multiple/integer. Source is Audiophile Lounge streaming radio (MP3/320k - 16/44.1), but local music works also, MP3, FLAC, DSD. No special settings on the V3.
> I should add that there are intermittent problems and getting sound is not reliable.
> If you have an iPhone, you might need to get special software as well. Best of luck.


All of my devices have USB-C output and I can't get any of them to output audio from USB to the C3.
I’ve tried DX220, LGPT, oneplus 3T, and oneplus 7Pro. I have USB Audio player and it doesn’t detect the C3.
The USB on my C3 work when connected to my PC. It's frustrating because I've test with more than a handful of USB-C cables.

UPDATE: I finally got USB Audio to work on my phone and DX220. I have so many cables, I don’t even remember if it’s the one that came with the C3. I had to use an USB-C adapter and reconfigure my USB Audio player. My USB Audio player didn’t like “No limit” sample rate with the C3.


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## atmfrank (Oct 20, 2019)

atmfrank said:


> Yes, no problem here. Ingredients: LG V30 Android with USB Pro software, USB-C adapter. Software settings are fairly advanced. Upsample to max-multiple/integer. Source is Audiophile Lounge streaming radio (MP3/320k - 16/44.1), but local music works also, MP3, FLAC, DSD. No special settings on the V3.
> 
> I should add that there are intermittent problems and getting sound is not reliable.
> 
> If you have an iPhone, you might need to get special software as well. Best of luck.




After a few more tries I have to agree, the Android USB interface to the V3 is not reliable. In fact, I am now unable to reproduce the earlier working setup. A couple of things bother me, the phone responds with "USB driver initialized", which is followed by "m_USBDevice !=null". That by itself may not be a problem, but the result is no sound. The USB settings of the phone is stuck in "Charging" mode, regardless of what I set the default to before the interface is initialized. Both of my LG phones have this issue. For good measure, I also tested the V2+ which (might) have the XMOS USB interface. Same problem.

Another observation, when I plug in the phone, the V3 responds with switching from PCM 44k -> DSD 22M even when I soft-limit the USB rate to 96k. When I play a stream, it switches to PCM 352k, which correctly matches my upsample settings, but not the USB rate settings. Something isn't working right with USB driver on phone.

In general, I stay away from portable USB DAC's for headphone use. I still have my trusted Dragon Fly, designed for problem-free operation. The V3 bluetooth interface is supporting the latest aptX HD standard and you can push high data rates reliably. The reason I have LG V30/35 phones is that the internal DAC makes a really great sound.


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## Marutks

Burson Conductor 3 has white noise (hiss) with Focal Stellia headphones.       Does it not happen with other low impedance cans?


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## raoultrifan

Based on manufacturer specs (https://www.focal.com/headphones/pdf/stellia_specification-sheet.pdf) I see that these beautiful headphpones are having a sensitivity of 106dB/1mW @1Khz, so with only 10mW of power you'll get peaks at 116dB which is about max. you can get for few seconds with your ears.

Hope I'm not wrong here, but I honestly don't think it's a wise thing to pair a 5000mW (@32...35Ohms) amplifier with 10mW headphones, after all the high internal gain of the amplifier will show its background noise, which is quite normal. BTW, what was the volume knob when you were doing auditioning with these cans?


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## Marutks (Oct 21, 2019)

raoultrifan said:


> BTW, what was the volume knob when you were doing auditioning with these cans?



Depends on recording, but around 7 on average.   On Low Gain setting.

C3 has no background noise with LCD-2s.  But I wouldn't recommend C3 if you want to use Focal Stellia cans.   I had no idea C3 wouldn't work with my headphones!   I would rather use Meridian Explorer  USB stick  LOL !!!

BTW  this amp (older model) has adjustable power output:   https://6moons.com/audioreviews/burson10/1.html
It might work better with Stellias.


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## alota

@vault108  you use otg adapter? i ask because in my playmate i used my phone without problems. the usb interface is the same xmos
@atmfrank like wrote to vault108, uapp needs a configuration depending every dac is connected. for example, in the first moment with playmate i had some problems, after resolved. with hugo tt i had a lot of problems.
i sent a mail to etreamsd. now i think i resolved my problems


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## omniweltall

Glad that Burson came out with an updated Conductor with 9038 chips. But I really really prefer the look of Conductor V2 to this V3. V2 looks much more posh and modern minimalist.


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## Marutks (Oct 22, 2019)

I tried my old burson amp  https://6moons.com/audioreviews/burson10/1.html     
It has no background noise with stellia headphones.  On both Low level  and  Medium level gain settings


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## up late

raoultrifan said:


> Based on manufacturer specs (https://www.focal.com/headphones/pdf/stellia_specification-sheet.pdf) I see that these beautiful headphpones are having a sensitivity of 106dB/1mW @1Khz, so with only 10mW of power you'll get peaks at 116dB which is about max. you can get for few seconds with your ears.
> 
> Hope I'm not wrong here, but I honestly don't think it's a wise thing to pair a 5000mW (@32...35Ohms) amplifier with 10mW headphones, after all the high internal gain of the amplifier will show its background noise, which is quite normal. BTW, what was the volume knob when you were doing auditioning with these cans?


i auditioned the stellia with the cv2+ which outputs 4000mw @32 ohms and didn't detect any background noise


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## up late

Marutks said:


> I tried my old burson amp  https://6moons.com/audioreviews/burson10/1.html
> It has no background noise with stellia headphones.  On both Low level  and  Medium level gain settings


i suggest that you inform burson audio of the problem that you're experiencing. i doubt that burson audio intended that the conductor 3's use be limited to high impedance headphones with low sensitivity. it is their reference integrated dac/head-amp/preamp after all.


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## atmfrank

up late said:


> i auditioned the stellia with the cv2+ which outputs 4000mw @32 ohms and didn't detect any background noise



FWIW, I tested 105db/mW 16Ohm IEM's (QKZ VK4) on the V3 without any noise. There was some in the beginning (burn-in time?). I am still not sure what triggered it, but it is gone now. Besides the fact the output is ridiculously hot (pre-amp gain=low/vol set to 15). The same IEM's produced some noticeable background noise on the V2+. 

I use these IEM's only for portable use on my LG V30 phone and are very enjoyable, neutral, detailed sounding.


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## up late (Oct 23, 2019)

atmfrank said:


> FWIW, I tested 105db/mW 16Ohm IEM's (QKZ VK4) on the V3 without any noise. There was some in the beginning (burn-in time?). I am still not sure what triggered it, but it is gone now. Besides the fact the output is ridiculously hot (pre-amp gain=low/vol set to 15). The same IEM's produced some noticeable background noise on the V2+.
> 
> I use these IEM's only for portable use on my LG V30 phone and are very enjoyable, neutral, detailed sounding.


the cv2+ is a desktop unit. i wouldn't use 16 ohm iems with it myself.

i do use the th900 with it, which has an impedance of 25 ohms and a sensitivity of 100db per mw so it's an efficient can, and I don't hear any extraneous noise.


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## raoultrifan

Marutks said:


> I tried my old burson amp  https://6moons.com/audioreviews/burson10/1.html
> It has no background noise with stellia headphones.  On both Low level  and  Medium level gain settings



The old CV1 used to have an analogue gain adjust, while CV2 and CV3 have digital gain adjust (built-into DAC), hence the lower noise on lower gains for the CV1.


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## raoultrifan

atmfrank said:


> FWIW, I tested 105db/mW 16Ohm IEM's (QKZ VK4) on the V3 without any noise. There was some in the beginning (burn-in time?). I am still not sure what triggered it, but it is gone now. Besides the fact the output is ridiculously hot (pre-amp gain=low/vol set to 15). The same IEM's produced some noticeable background noise on the V2+.
> 
> I use these IEM's only for portable use on my LG V30 phone and are very enjoyable, neutral, detailed sounding.



In the end, which one is the quietest one on these 105dB/mW IEMs: CV2 or CV3?

Thank you!


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## atmfrank (Oct 23, 2019)

raoultrifan said:


> In the end, which one is the quietest one on these 105dB/mW IEMs: CV2 or CV3?
> 
> Thank you!



I would have to lie in order to give a precise answer on the difference. But I can say this, the V3 is dead silent with the volume gain at max (pre-amp gain low or hi) and with any type of headphone. Which is to be expected for digital volume control.

I don't like to do too many tests where I have IEM's plugged directly into my ears and the amp gain on full throttle. I do like to preserve my eardrums for a little while longer.


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## raoultrifan (Oct 24, 2019)

atmfrank said:


> [...]Which is to be expected for digital volume control.[...]



There are several types of noises inside such a combo:
- DAC noise
- I/V noise
- LPF noise
- gain stage (Voltage Amplification Stage)
- output buffers noise
The most output noise is around I/V, LPF and VAS.

If the volume is digitally controlled then all the above noises are summing up and some very sensitive headphones might pick it up in a very quiet room.

Placing an analogue potentiometer somewhere between LPF and output buffer will lower the inner output noise when using low volume, so this scenario should be preferred by IEM lovers. However, in this scenario the thermal (Johnson) noise will get added by the analogue potentiometer and when volume knob will pass 12 o'clock this noise might get at least measurable...if not even audible. So, for regular sensitivity headphones this scenario might not be the best, while for low sensitivity headphones both scenarios will work like a charm.


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## Marutks

atmfrank said:


> the V3 is dead silent



dead silent?    My C3 isn't dead silent.   I tried HD 515 (50 ohm) headphones and they make the same noise when plugged into C3.
I think burson have sent me a faulty unit.


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## atmfrank

What can I say....I just had a friend over and we were cranking up Led Zepplin II - (the special reel-to-reel re-master), which placed us directly in the studio...or at least in the control room. It sounded phenomenally live and present. The Classic V6 has amazing musical texture but still enough micro detail and dynamic range preservation. I can hear the frets and picks on Jimmy Page's guitar, Jon Bonham's clapping on the garbage can on Ramble On. The drum solo on Moby Dick killed it. 

You really need a special DAC to capture the live nature of these sessions. Whole Lotta Love still gives me chills today, (almost) 50 years later. If you can find the reel-to-reel version of this classic, it's a must-have. The V3 + V6 Classic op-amp is the perfect combination for this type of music. 

Thanks Burson!


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## Marutks

they are going to send me replacement


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## up late

good. burson's customer service is exemplary imo. please let us know how the replacement unit turns out.


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## taiyoyuden

any information on the mic input? phantom power? balanced 1/8" trs?


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## raoultrifan

I don't see any 48V boost-converter chip on the motherboard, so definitely no Phantom Power inside the CV3 combo. I also don't think CV3 was designed with studio mics in mind, so all you get is most likely a regular 3.5mm mic for voice apps.


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## taiyoyuden

It's disappointing to see a cheap mic input on a high end DAC/Amp.


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## raoultrifan

Are you aware of an audiophile DAC/combo that even has a mic input? AFAIK Burson is the only manufacturer I know that has mic-input plug.
I am not speaking about about studio interfaces, but only about audiophile DACs or combos.

Who needs Phantom power or balanced TRS or XLR mic inputs can easily purchase a cheap studio interface, like Focusrite, Presonus etc.


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## taiyoyuden

Exactly, best to have no mic input at all when everyone can just use the one on their motherboard if it's going to be the same


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## raoultrifan (Oct 30, 2019)

I see your point now. 

This came first on PLAY, then moved further to FUN, PLAYMATE and now to the CV3. The initial idea of including a cheap ADC and a 3.5mm mic-jack was to cover the audiophile & gamers area with the ability to create the first audiophile DAC with headamp on USB and with external power in the world capable the fit inside a computer case. So, that was about PLAY, PLAYMATE, FUN (BANG as well, but no ADC inside this one).

Now, why Burson decided to keep the ADC and the mic-input inside the CV3 I do not know, but I can easily see this as a feature, even if for most of us might be not important, but I guess audiophile gamers should love it.


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## raoultrifan

Slim1970 said:


> I’m a big fan of Burson. They make amazing gear. I was hoping they would replace the V2/V2+. But I was hoping it would be something with balanced in’s and out’s. Nevertheless, the specs look outstanding.



Someone really listens to you: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/new...-3-75wpc-se-headamp-changeable-opamps.918232/.


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## Dogmatrix

SCOOP

*Introducing the Burson Conductor 3X Reference.*
*Burson Conductor 3X: Balanced DAC/Headamp/Preamp*
Fully balanced with one DAC chip per channel.  Top-quality components throughout including Neutrik XLR connectors, the C3X is the perfect command centre for any XLR audio systems.  

https://www.bursonaudio.com/products/conductor-3x/

Retail price $2,200 USD inc shipping.
Exclusive Pre-Order Offer: $1,649 inc shipping. 
Discount never to be repeated. ie *It will be more expensive on Black Friday.*
Delivery of all pre-order units before the 20th Dec. 2019
Offer ends 15th, Nov. 2019.
*Shipping in chronological order *


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## up late (Oct 31, 2019)

didn't you see the previous post? it contains a link to the thread that has already been created for the conductor 3x.


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## Chik0240

I am curious about the volume control, is it an alps pot or a chip based one?


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## raoultrifan

It's digital volume control built-into the DAC chip. Internally works on 32-bit volume adjust, so there will be no additional noise injected into the analogue stages: http://www.esstech.com/files/3014/4095/4308/digital-vs-analog-volume-control.pdf.
Channel imbalance will be about perfect across the entire adjustable volume range/steps.


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## taiyoyuden

I noticed that it's no longer a 5 year warranty but a 2 year warranty :/


----------



## flea22

How does the dac fair by itself? Looking at buying the balanced version of this amp and running the dac into my wa22. Currently using a chord qutest, but I want to swap to a xlr dac. Also having a good solid state head amp is a massive bonus.


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## atmfrank (Nov 3, 2019)

A nice feature of the V3, you can feed downstream directly from the DAC without volume control (second output). I don't know enough about the circuitry, so I am not sure if the "signature" I/V and LP stages (equipped with Burson opamps - vivid/classic) are in the path in this mode.

I am on the budget side of audiophiles, but I can say the V3 blows away my Chord Mojo by a long-shot. The combination of a V3 + wa22 sounds intriguing. The implementation of the ES9038, coupled with extremely low-noise power and well-documented head-amp performance is amazing for the price...in my mind.

I'd love to see some serious reviews and comparative analysis of the V3.


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## raoultrifan

atmfrank said:


> A nice feature of the V3, you can feed downstream directly from the DAC without volume control (second output). I don't know enough about the circuitry, so I am not sure if the "signature" I/V and LP stages (equipped with Burson opamps - vivid/classic) are in the path in this mode.
> 
> I am on the budget side of audiophiles, but I can say the V3 blows away my Chord Mojo by a long-shot. [...]



I guess you are referring to the DAC-out feature; if so, then this output should provide the cleanest audio.

As for the Mojo compare, I think the beefy amp from the C3Ref does the difference here.


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## buson160man

I was on the burson audio website a few days ago and saw that burson is now offering a balanced version of the conductor 3. I am not a happy camper because I had just bought the single ended version and received it about three weeks ago.
If burson was going to offer a balanced version of the new conductor they should have mentioned it on their website before you buy the single ended version. Burson has never offered a balanced version of anything before if I had known I would have waited for the balanced version and bought it. I think this is pretty shabby of burson not mentioning it on their website before you buy the single ended version. Needless to say I am not happy. It is  400 dollars more but they are offering the same 400 discount for a like period on pre orders. But that does nothing for me.


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## raoultrifan (Nov 4, 2019)

@buson160man, there's already a thread about it here: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/new-fully-balanced-burson-conductor-3x-dual-ess9038-7-5wpc-xlr-3-75wpc-se-headamp-changeable-opamps.918232/.

C3Ref has 7.5W @ 16Ohms on the single-ended output jack, while C3X has 3.75W @ 16Ohms, so who needs a single ended powerful combo probably C3Ref might be a better choice.


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## Marutks

I agree.  I would have bought balanced version of C3.


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## up late

i was expecting this reaction. i suspect that burson audio may have shot itself in the foot by releasing both of these conductor models and shortening the warranty period for them from five to two years.


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## Chik0240

up late said:


> i was expecting this reaction. i suspect that burson audio may have shot itself in the foot by releasing both of these conductor models and shortening the warranty period for them from five to two years.


Actually I feel like they are shooting their foot by the conductor virtuoso already. Let me clear myself, my first ever amp was the Soloist SL and by those days Burson sticks firmly to the all discrete path where even the volume control in the top end Soloist was using stepped attenuator, to make sure no opamp or IC stage volume control was in the whole system path, that was heavily marketed as their signature, after than in the virtuoso they just changed to use a digital IC based volume control and I was a bit skeptical, not that I truely believe that IC is always inferior, but the company design philosophy, it feels kind of like they suddenly moves from their stance, while it is still very capable product I am looking more on various brands for that alone


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## buson160man (Nov 4, 2019)

thanks for the reply but why did burson not show it on their website? I saw no mention of it when I purchased the conductor 3.The thread you listed is dated November 3rd.I have had my conductor for probably a month. The burson website had no mention of the burson conductor x back when I preordered mine which was probably in September.


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## raoultrifan (Nov 5, 2019)

Chik0240 said:


> Actually I feel like they are shooting their foot by the conductor virtuoso already. Let me clear myself, my first ever amp was the Soloist SL and by those days Burson sticks firmly to the all discrete path where even the volume control in the top end Soloist was using stepped attenuator, to make sure no opamp or IC stage volume control was in the whole system path, that was heavily marketed as their signature, after than in the virtuoso they just changed to use a digital IC based volume control and I was a bit skeptical, not that I truely believe that IC is always inferior, but the company design philosophy, it feels kind of like they suddenly moves from their stance, while it is still very capable product I am looking more on various brands for that alone



I do have CV2+ and I'm using the DAC-OUT when I feed my speakers amplifier or the internal CV2 amplifier for headphones. There is no opamp in the signal-path when using these two configurations! The PGA2310 digital volume control only works as pre-amplifier with the two analogue inputs, so when using CV2+ with the internal ES9018S DAC the volume is adjusted from the built-in DAC chip (it works at 32-bits inside), like most other ES9018/9028/9038 implementations. Feel free to read my CV2+ review here: https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/burson-audio-conductor-v2.21385/reviews#review-21099.


----------



## raoultrifan

taiyoyuden said:


> I noticed that it's no longer a 5 year warranty but a 2 year warranty :/



Anyone dealing with BURSON already knows that their custom obsession is way ahead other companies and that they go above and beyond their obligations, so I'm positive that they'll continue to do that for fellow audiophiles regardless of warranty terms. Feel free to contact BURSON if any technical issues will occur after warranty expiration and see how they'll help you. I'm sure we'll all be here after 2 years, so...let's see if and what kind of technical issues will occur and how BURSON will deal with its customers.

I am confident that they'll find a way to solve this issue with distributors, but if not, I won't make a huge case out of it; after all this is the only company that sent me a fully populated board without asking the broken one in exchange (and I've seen at least other 6 head-fiers where the warranty was done in the same manner). That was quite money saving here and customer satisfaction went to the max.

P.S.: I still have a lemon Chromecast Audio purchased at 30 USD from US. It got bricked on the first firmware update that was automatically done immediately after connecting it to the computer. Shipping the item in US costs more than the actual price of the device and Google is not willing to send me another Chromecast without getting the broken one in exchange, even if I've sent them not manipulated photos and videos with the bricked device and detailed logs as well. That is not customer obsession for sure!


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## atmfrank

I couldn't agree more. I had a defective volume control on a used/second-hand purchased V2+. Burson could have decided to ignore my request, but they didn't. They send the replacement part and got the issue resolved. By doing so, they won a new customer.


----------



## up late

raoultrifan said:


> Anyone dealing with BURSON already knows that their custom obsession is way ahead other companies and that they go above and beyond their obligations, so I'm positive that they'll continue to do that for fellow audiophiles regardless of warranty terms. Feel free to contact BURSON if any technical issues will occur after warranty expiration and see how they'll help you. I'm sure we'll all be here after 2 years, so...let's see if and what kind of technical issues will occur and how BURSON will deal with its customers.
> 
> I am confident that they'll find a way to solve this issue with distributors, but if not, I won't make a huge case out of it; after all this is the only company that sent me a fully populated board without asking the broken one in exchange (and I've seen at least other 6 head-fiers where the warranty was done in the same manner). That was quite money saving here and customer satisfaction went to the max.
> 
> P.S.: I still have a lemon Chromecast Audio purchased at 30 USD from US. It got bricked on the first firmware update that was automatically done immediately after connecting it to the computer. Shipping the item in US costs more than the actual price of the device and Google is not willing to send me another Chromecast without getting the broken one in exchange, even if I've sent them not manipulated photos and videos with the bricked device and detailed logs as well. That is not customer obsession for sure!


as i have responded to your post in the New, Fully Balanced Burson Conductor 3X: Dual ESS9038, 7.5wpc XLR, 3.75wpc SE Headamp, Changeable Opamps thread, i might as well do it here for the sake of completeness.

the concern which has been raised doesn't relate to the quality of burson audio's customer service (which isn't in question), but its decision to provide a two year warranty for the two new conductor models when it used to offer a five year warranty for previous conductor models. what i find particularly odd is that burson audio is still providing a five year warranty for its current lower tier models. as i've said, i would be interested in knowing what burson audio's explanation is for this apparent discrepancy.


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## andrewjamesdean

up late said:


> as i have responded to your post in the New, Fully Balanced Burson Conductor 3X: Dual ESS9038, 7.5wpc XLR, 3.75wpc SE Headamp, Changeable Opamps thread, i might as well do it here for the sake of completeness.
> 
> the concern which has been raised doesn't relate to the quality of burson audio's customer service (which isn't in question), but its decision to provide a two year warranty for the two new conductor models when it used to offer a five year warranty for previous conductor models. what i find particularly odd is that burson audio is still providing a five year warranty for its current lower tier models. as i've said, i would be interested in knowing what burson audio's explanation is for this apparent discrepancy.


The box that my CRef3 came in very clearly states a 5 year warranty


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## Eiffel

The site says 2 years and it's not their first product having a 2 years warranty.
Conductor Air had the same. I have one.

Probably they don't intend to produce to many or for a long period of time.
Conductor Air was phased out after a year.


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## up late (Nov 8, 2019)

andrewjamesdean said:


> The box that my CRef3 came in very clearly states a 5 year warranty


that's welcome news. however, burson audio's website currently states two years warranty for both the conductor 3 and 3x, so they should correct it.

i had the opportunity to briefly try the conductor 3 (c3) at my local dealer today. it looks sleeker than its predecessor with its lower profile and rounded corners. i liked the look and feel of the ribbed casing but i suspect that it could be a dust catcher. while i prefer the design of the volume/selector knob on the c3 to the cv2+, it felt a bit rickety. the c3's oled volume display also seemed "laggy" compared to the cv2+. i won't comment on the sound beyond saying that i didn't notice any obvious differences between the cv3 and cv2+ while i was auditioning headphones.


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## buson160man

After reading the blog about bursons conductor 3. I just checked the burson web site and they do show the conductor3s warranty period as 2 years. I have to read some more comments on this blog. How can they show a warranty period of 2 years on their website and have a 5 year warranty period boldly shown on the box it came in? has anyone contacted burson and inquired about the discrepancy of warranty period between their website and the product box it is shipped in. I ordered mine in September and got it in October. I am wondering what is going on in the burson marketing department these days. When I ordered mine they had no indication of any impending release of the conductor x . They should have shown that they were going to release a balance version of the conductor 3 when you ordered the single ended version so you have a choice. Especially since burson has never released any balanced version of anything before.


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## up late (Nov 10, 2019)

^ why don't you contact burson audio via its website?

my local dealer didn't know that burson audio had released the conductor 3x until i mentioned it. he then checked the website and appeared surprised to see it there.


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## atmfrank

A lot bickering going on here about the 3X (XLR) version and warranty periods. And perhaps it seems Burson doesn't have their act together. On the other hand, how many high-end gear manufacturers offer a 5 yr warranty? Perhaps they recognized it is time for a change because it doesn't scale for a business that wants to grow. A 5 yr guaranteed warranty is hard to maintain and a pretty darn long time by any imagination. Let's take a look at high-end mobile manufactures and what lousy warranty services being offered there, even for $1000 price tags. I also don't think Burson has a big "Marketing" department. It's more likely that they have a part-web site designer who is a little behind updating the website. 

And now the mystery about the "why XLR" question is solved, because of the marketing arrangement with LCD. Yes, I agree, it should have been handled better and more proactively.


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## atmfrank (Nov 11, 2019)

I am actually more interested in talking about the usability of the Conductor. For my humble setup, it has become the heart of my living room audio. USB input is from a dedicated Win 10 machine, which carries various playback applications, but mainly I use Foobar2000. The COAX input is used for a Raspberry/DigiOne at 192K upsampled rate. The RPI is running LMS which is remote-controlled and can also support multi-room (Google Audio in bed-room tied to a Bose Waveradio....sorry..). The sound quality of the DigiOne is nothing short of excellent when coupled with the V3 and the right cable. I use it mostly for free hi-res streaming radio stations, but it also plays my local FLAC and DSD sources from the NAS.

Best sounding, most reliable setup: USB/Foobar2k/DSD256 upsample for all non-DSD sources. 

Then there are two RCA inputs, which makes the V3 extremely flexible. I have an older MacCormack pre-amp with a decent phono pre-amp stage. The pre-amp feeds the (unbuffered) output directly into RCA1 of the V3. In the past, there was a noticeable difference between vinyl sources and the same music digitized using another 9018 DAC or the older V2+. Now with the V3 in the setup, that difference has shrunk dramatically. The liveliness of vinyl is now present in the V3 when compared with FLAC/DSD. The RCA2 input is used for pet projects, which is currently another RPI with an Allo Piano/Kali/Volumio DAC setup.

I like the visual simplicity, amazing sound quality, flexibility, small footprint of the V3 as the core of everything I operate. Everyone has a different style, but my goal is to keep the living room clutter-free (and cable-free) as much as possible and the audio experience at a very high standard.

My apologies to the headphone forum readers. This is not exactly on topic.  Cheers,


----------



## up late

atmfrank said:


> A lot bickering going on here about the 3X (XLR) version and warranty periods. And perhaps it seems Burson doesn't have their act together. On the other hand, how many high-end gear manufacturers offer a 5 yr warranty? Perhaps they recognized it is time for a change because it doesn't scale for a business that wants to grow. A 5 yr guaranteed warranty is hard to maintain and a pretty darn long time by any imagination. Let's take a look at high-end mobile manufactures and what lousy warranty services being offered there, even for $1000 price tags. I also don't think Burson has a big "Marketing" department. It's more likely that they have a part-web site designer who is a little behind updating the website.
> 
> And now the mystery about the "why XLR" question is solved, because of the marketing arrangement with LCD. Yes, I agree, it should have been handled better and more proactively.


there's no "bickering going on here", unless you regard legitimate queries as such. can you please clarify what you mean by the xlr question being solved because of the marketing with lcd?


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## atmfrank

A Burson email arrived today, advertising a special promotion of the V3/LCD-3 with (and without) XLR. My guess, there is a commitment to producing an XLR version because of it.


----------



## up late

with respect, that's speculation on your part


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## DarKu

I'll just leave it here


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## atmfrank (Nov 15, 2019)

Question: DPLL settings. Do they impact the listening experience on the V3? And if so, noticeably?

My default setup involves upsampling all sources in Foobar to DSD256, to allow for more control over the conversion process. (I also experimented with HQplayer, but found it too cumbersome for day2day use). Since the V3 is my first ES9038 based DAC, I wonder if it still makes sense to software upsample before hitting the DAC. When sending DSD256 to the V3, I have to set DPLL DSD to High (Med = white hiss, Low = frequent drops, Off = no lock). Even with the High setting, I experience white hiss occasionally.

No problems with DSD128 and  DPLL DSD=med

Hardware: Dell i7->Jitterbug->AQ Carbon 1m->V3

I will start more A/B (upsample/no upsample - DPLL lo-hi) listening sessions soon to see if one or the other playback method makes a difference. So far, default upsampling of every of my FLAC sources, has resulted in excellent results of sq, but at the presumed cost of DPLL=high. I was also lurking in the L.K.S Audio MH-DA004 forums where folks are discussing this. Some people claim a DPLL low setting improves the sound.

I also noticed a slight flicker of the icon (music note) next to the DSD symbol and I wonder if this is an indicator of locking issues with DSD256. No flicker when playing DSD64 sources (DSD processor set to direct).


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## buson160man

I have had my conductor 3 for a good month and a half maybe and it is pretty much broken in by now. I was listening yesterday using my mr speakers aon open back phones yesterday and I could not help but notice a bit of brightness to the sound signature. In comparison to my old ha-160 amp that I was using before. So today I resurrected my ha-160 and hooked it up to the conductor 3 using it for the first time as a preamp. I looked up the manual on the burson website manual website and with some trial and error figured out how to set up the conductor for dac only operation. I wished that burson had included a product manual with the new conductor. None was provided. I have to print out a copy while I have the chance to on their website. So getting back to real purpose of my post the perception of a bright output on the headphone amplifier of the new conductor three. I hooked up the ha 160 and even after a very short listen that bright sound signature of the conductor 3 has been exposed. The old reliable ha 160 with the hifi tuning supreme fuse upgrade and a kubala sosna power cord sounds pretty decent in fact it is definitely less bright than the conductor 3 while losing none of the good points of the conductor 3. With the ha 160 there is a sense of body and weight that is just not there with the conductor 3. But to its credit the conductor is a more than capable dac when used for that purpose. But I am a bit bummed by the headphone amp section. I am thinking it could be attributable to the switching power supply section that the new conductor 3 has. I wish I could hear the old conductor version 2 with its dual linear power supply and greater output. I suspect as a headphone amp it might have some advantages over  the newer conductor 3.  I have to say that the old ha-160 still is a pretty capable headphone amp even after all this time. It had definitely proved its robustness of construction in its long lasting and trouble free operation for these many years.


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## raoultrifan

buson160man said:


> I have had my conductor 3 for a good month and a half maybe and it is pretty much broken in by now. I was listening yesterday using my mr speakers aon open back phones yesterday and I could not help but notice a bit of brightness to the sound signature.



Swap the opamps with V6 Classic if you have them around, if not...then use 2 x NE5532 + 2 x 5543 (actually only the duals will change the flavor enough).


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## vault108

atmfrank said:


> Question: DPLL settings. Do they impact the listening experience on the V3? And if so, noticeably?
> 
> My default setup involves upsampling all sources in Foobar to DSD256, to allow for more control over the conversion process. (I also experimented with HQplayer, but found it too cumbersome for day2day use). Since the V3 is my first ES9038 based DAC, I wonder if it still makes sense to software upsample before hitting the DAC. When sending DSD256 to the V3, I have to set DPLL DSD to High (Med = white hiss, Low = frequent drops, Off = no lock). Even with the High setting, I experience white hiss occasionally.
> 
> ...


Hey, if you have a chance, give JRiver Media Center a try (it's not free, but have trial). You can upsample to DSD512 (8xDSD) but the sound stutter. Same stutter on the iFi Micro BL. I mainly use 4xDSD in native format. It’s alternative to Foobar.

My results are same as your.
DSD in native format
1xDSD (DSD64) with DPLL (DSD) Low, no problem
2xDSD (DSD128) with DPLL (DSD) Mid, no problem
4xDSD (DSD256) with DPLL (DSD) High, no problem


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## atmfrank

vault108 said:


> Hey, if you have a chance, give JRiver Media Center a try (it's not free, but have trial). You can upsample to DSD512 (8xDSD) but the sound stutter. Same stutter on the iFi Micro BL. I mainly use 4xDSD in native format. It’s alternative to Foobar.
> 
> My results are same as your.
> DSD in native format
> ...



I tried an older version (v23) a while back but didn't like the interface. Thanks for confirming the 4xDSD observations. I am still trying to assess if there are any trade-offs in sq for DPLL High settings, but so far my listening sessions have not revealed any differences.


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## atmfrank

buson160man said:


> I have had my conductor 3 for a good month and a half maybe and it is pretty much broken in by now. I was listening yesterday using my mr speakers aon open back phones yesterday and I could not help but notice a bit of brightness to the sound signature. In comparison to my old ha-160 amp that I was using before. So today I resurrected my ha-160 and hooked it up to the conductor 3 using it for the first time as a preamp. I looked up the manual on the burson website manual website and with some trial and error figured out how to set up the conductor for dac only operation. I wished that burson had included a product manual with the new conductor. None was provided. I have to print out a copy while I have the chance to on their website. So getting back to real purpose of my post the perception of a bright output on the headphone amplifier of the new conductor three. I hooked up the ha 160 and even after a very short listen that bright sound signature of the conductor 3 has been exposed. The old reliable ha 160 with the hifi tuning supreme fuse upgrade and a kubala sosna power cord sounds pretty decent in fact it is definitely less bright than the conductor 3 while losing none of the good points of the conductor 3. With the ha 160 there is a sense of body and weight that is just not there with the conductor 3. But to its credit the conductor is a more than capable dac when used for that purpose. But I am a bit bummed by the headphone amp section. I am thinking it could be attributable to the switching power supply section that the new conductor 3 has. I wish I could hear the old conductor version 2 with its dual linear power supply and greater output. I suspect as a headphone amp it might have some advantages over  the newer conductor 3.  I have to say that the old ha-160 still is a pretty capable headphone amp even after all this time. It had definitely proved its robustness of construction in its long lasting and trouble free operation for these many years.



I don't have a long history with Burson, spent less than 1 yr with the CV2+ before switching to the V3. My observations are similar to yours: the V3 sounds (very slightly) "brighter" than the V2+. I put "brighter" in quotes because I find the V3 more revealing and detailed than any other DAC/head-amp I have used in the past. Perhaps the increase in brightness can be traced back to the DAC in the signal chain, or the source material?

I did a lot of subjective A/B listening sessions between the V2+ and V3. It is difficult (time-consuming) to create a true set-up to establish a definite difference. My impression, the V2+ ended up sounding closer to my old Gustard X20u (also: ES9018/XMOS/conventional power supply) and it became a foregone conclusion to stick with the more detailed sounding V3.

As @raoultrifan mentioned, there are many ways to shape the experience. I am currently running with V6 Vivid opamps, which are known to bring out more detail. The V6 Classic might do the trick for you.


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## DarKu

Hey guys,
Just posted *my final review* for C3Ref (included some Q&A with the Burson team and some comparisons). Hope you like it.


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## raoultrifan (Nov 18, 2019)

I know I liked it for sure! 

I also liked the compare between the HA160 and the C3Ref, that came just well after the previous couple of posts from above.

Now I'm waiting for a side-by-side test CV2+ vs. C3Ref, hope you can get the CV2+ from the dealer.


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## buson160man

atmfrank said:


> I don't have a long history with Burson, spent less than 1 yr with the CV2+ before switching to the V3. My observations are similar to yours: the V3 sounds (very slightly) "brighter" than the V2+. I put "brighter" in quotes because I find the V3 more revealing and detailed than any other DAC/head-amp I have used in the past. Perhaps the increase in brightness can be traced back to the DAC in the signal chain, or the source material?
> 
> I did a lot of subjective A/B listening sessions between the V2+ and V3. It is difficult (time-consuming) to create a true set-up to establish a definite difference. My impression, the V2+ ended up sounding closer to my old Gustard X20u (also: ES9018/XMOS/conventional power supply) and it became a foregone conclusion to stick with the more detailed sounding V3.
> 
> As @raoultrifan mentioned, there are many ways to shape the experience. I am currently running with V6 Vivid opamps, which are known to bring out more detail. The V6 Classic might do the trick for you.


----------



## buson160man

atmfrank said:


> I don't have a long history with Burson, spent less than 1 yr with the CV2+ before switching to the V3. My observations are similar to yours: the V3 sounds (very slightly) "brighter" than the V2+. I put "brighter" in quotes because I find the V3 more revealing and detailed than any other DAC/head-amp I have used in the past. Perhaps the increase in brightness can be traced back to the DAC in the signal chain, or the source material?
> 
> I did a lot of subjective A/B listening sessions between the V2+ and V3. It is difficult (time-consuming) to create a true set-up to establish a definite difference. My impression, the V2+ ended up sounding closer to my old Gustard X20u (also: ES9018/XMOS/conventional power supply) and it became a foregone conclusion to stick with the more detailed sounding V3.
> 
> As @raoultrifan mentioned, there are many ways to shape the experience. I am currently running with V6 Vivid opamps, which are known to bring out more detail. The V6 Classic might do the trick for you.


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## buson160man

I SAW YOUR REPLY TO MY OBSERVATION THAT THE NEW CONDUCTOR SOUNDED SOMEWHAT BRIGHT IN COMPARISON TO MY OLD HA-160. I WANT TO POINT OUT THAT I HAD UPGRADED THE STOCK FUSE IN MY OLD HA-160 TO A HIFI TUNING SUPREME FUSE. PLUS I AM USING KUBALA SOSNA POWER CORDS THAT COST MORE THAN THE HA-160. MOST PEOPLE WOULD PROBABLY USE SOMETHING A LOT LESS EXPENSIVE.. I WAS WONDERING IF YOU HAD EVER UPGRADED THE STOCK FUSE TO SOMETHING LIKE THE HIFI TUNING SUPREME FUSE. ALSO IF YOU HAVE EVER TRIED A BETTER POWER CORD ON YOUR CONDUCTOR V2. ON THE HA-160 THE FUSE UPGRADE MADE PRETTY NOTICEABLE IMPROVEMENT IN THE SOUND QUALITY. YOU MIGHT IF YOU STILL HAVE THE CONDUCTOR V2 TRY UPGRADING THE STOCK FUSE TO SOMETHING LIKE THE SUPREME FUSE AND USE A BETTER POWER CORD. YOU COULD VERY WELL BE SURPRISED BY THE DIFFERENCE THESE RELATIVELY EASY TWEAKS CAN MAKE.


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## buson160man

UNFORTUNATELY THE NEW CONDUCTOR DOES NOT HAVE A FUSE THAT I CAN SEE. SO THAT OPTION APPEARS TO BE NOT ON THE TABLE FOR THE NEW CONDUCTOR VERSION 3.UPGRADING FUSES CAN MAKE A PRETTY NOTICEABLE DIFFERENCE ON COMPONENTS. I REPLACED THE STOCK FUSES IN MY RECAPPED VINTAGE CONCEPT 16.5 RECEIVER AND THE SOUND DEFINITELY IMPROVED PRETTY DRAMATICALLY. THE NOISE LEVELS DROPPED CONSDERABLY.


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## vault108

buson160man said:


> UNFORTUNATELY THE NEW CONDUCTOR DOES NOT HAVE A FUSE THAT I CAN SEE. SO THAT OPTION APPEARS TO BE NOT ON THE TABLE FOR THE NEW CONDUCTOR VERSION 3.UPGRADING FUSES CAN MAKE A PRETTY NOTICEABLE DIFFERENCE ON COMPONENTS. I REPLACED THE STOCK FUSES IN MY RECAPPED VINTAGE CONCEPT 16.5 RECEIVER AND THE SOUND DEFINITELY IMPROVED PRETTY DRAMATICALLY. THE NOISE LEVELS DROPPED CONSDERABLY.


The C3 came with an extra nano ceramic fuse. The fuse is in the lower left corner opposite of the opamps.


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## atmfrank (Nov 18, 2019)

buson160man said:


> I SAW YOUR REPLY TO MY OBSERVATION THAT THE NEW CONDUCTOR SOUNDED SOMEWHAT BRIGHT IN COMPARISON TO MY OLD HA-160. I WANT TO POINT OUT THAT I HAD UPGRADED THE STOCK FUSE IN MY OLD HA-160 TO A HIFI TUNING SUPREME FUSE. PLUS I AM USING KUBALA SOSNA POWER CORDS THAT COST MORE THAN THE HA-160. MOST PEOPLE WOULD PROBABLY USE SOMETHING A LOT LESS EXPENSIVE.. I WAS WONDERING IF YOU HAD EVER UPGRADED THE STOCK FUSE TO SOMETHING LIKE THE HIFI TUNING SUPREME FUSE. ALSO IF YOU HAVE EVER TRIED A BETTER POWER CORD ON YOUR CONDUCTOR V2. ON THE HA-160 THE FUSE UPGRADE MADE PRETTY NOTICEABLE IMPROVEMENT IN THE SOUND QUALITY. YOU MIGHT IF YOU STILL HAVE THE CONDUCTOR V2 TRY UPGRADING THE STOCK FUSE TO SOMETHING LIKE THE SUPREME FUSE AND USE A BETTER POWER CORD. YOU COULD VERY WELL BE SURPRISED BY THE DIFFERENCE THESE RELATIVELY EASY TWEAKS CAN MAKE.



Audio is a great and fun hobby. It brings out interesting personality traits. I too have a hard time letting go of audio equipment I had for a long time. There is an intimate personal attachment to the way it sounds, the effort we put it in to perfect it (with enhancements). Something so familiar cannot be replaced so easily, or we choose not to. For me, it was a set of speakers I build myself from Dynaudio components with the best cross-over components money could by. I used special inductors made from the highest grade copper and the best capacitors available. I spend more on the cross-over, or at least equal amount to the drivers.....long story, I just now 30 years (!) later I decided to mothball those puppies. They still sound amazing even today and there are plenty of friends who can confirm.

So goes the audio journey, eventually, the time comes to let go of the familiar and embrace to shiny new and BETTER stuff.

Sorry for the philosophical rant here, but if I had experienced the amazing "wow" effect when the HA-160 first arrived, I might have similar sentiments. I am not going to invest in enhanced power cables or fuses for the C3R...I am going to enjoy this puppy as is, swap a few opamps in and out...and be done with it until such time the C4R comes out . Cheers man, and enjoy what you have.


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## raoultrifan (Nov 19, 2019)

buson160man said:


> UNFORTUNATELY THE NEW CONDUCTOR DOES NOT HAVE A FUSE THAT I CAN SEE. SO THAT OPTION APPEARS TO BE NOT ON THE TABLE FOR THE NEW CONDUCTOR VERSION 3.UPGRADING FUSES CAN MAKE A PRETTY NOTICEABLE DIFFERENCE ON COMPONENTS. I REPLACED THE STOCK FUSES IN MY RECAPPED VINTAGE CONCEPT 16.5 RECEIVER AND THE SOUND DEFINITELY IMPROVED PRETTY DRAMATICALLY. THE NOISE LEVELS DROPPED CONSDERABLY.



I strongly don't recommend fuse replacement, especially in brand new & under warranty equipment!

There is no noise to get lowered in this device, because there are no fuses in the signal path. The only fuse would be on the power supply input, on the motherboard, and it's most likely a slow-blow gold or rhodium plated one. Feel free to find it and short-circuit it with a pliers or screw-driver or something, while listening to your headphones and checking for background noise improvement.


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## raoultrifan

I guess most of us did received a message from BURSON today:
*
"Register to get another 12 months of warranty, Free. *
_
To further support our customers, we are offering another 12 months of warranty on top of the standard 2 years!  So a total of 3 years if you follow the simple steps to register from the page below.

https://www.bursonaudio.com/warranty/

This applies to direct sales customers only.  Customers purchasing through our dealers and distributors will have to follow their warranty policies"._

Now I'm quite positive that the extended warranty issue is on the distributors side and I find BURSON's message peaceful and revealing right now, doing sort of best of both worlds for us.


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## up late

it still doesn't address the discrepancy between what's printed on the box and published on the website


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## selvakumar

up late said:


> it still doesn't address the discrepancy between what's printed on the box and published on the website


Let's all request Burson to offer full 5 years warranty to conductor 3 & 3x


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## buson160man (Nov 21, 2019)

I have been doing some comparisons in a continuing observation between my burson ha=160 and the headphone amplifier section of the conductor 3. I am finding that I actually prefer the ha-160 as a headphone amp using the conductor as a dac feeding the ha-160. The ha-160 has a more analog like presentation in my book compared to the headphone amp section of the conductor 3. I did read another blog in this thread bringing up the point that burson has shifted it s focus of a pure analog signal path with no ICs in the circuit path. The ha-160 having a stepped discrete volume control. while some later units using IC s to control the volume.  I will be doing more listening and continue my comparisons.


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## raoultrifan

C3-Ref and C3-X are not using operational amplifier chips inside. Instead, they use their own solid-state V6 Vivid inside, which are, of course, solid-state, so only transistors and passive components. But I think we can all check the V6 thread to check out what's inside these so-called V6 opamps.

I suggest you to swap V6 Vidid to V6 Classic and then do another A/B test. The difference between C3-Ref and HA-160 might diminish now.
Of course, you can use opamp chips, like MUSES 8920 (for duals) or even NE5532/5534 and do again the A/B test.


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## Marutks

They are going to send me C3-X.


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## buson160man (Nov 22, 2019)

raoultrifan said:


> C3-Ref and C3-X are not using operational amplifier chips inside. Instead, they use their own solid-state V6 Vivid inside, which are, of course, solid-state, so only transistors and passive components. But I think we can all check the V6 thread to check out what's inside these so-called V6 opamps.
> 
> I suggest you to swap V6 Vidid to V6 Classic and then do another A/B test. The difference between C3-Ref and HA-160 might diminish now.
> Of course, you can use opamp chips, like MUSES 8920 (for duals) or even NE5532/5534 and do again the A/B test.


 Burson is using a ic chip based volume control the op amp is discrete but the volume control is not. The ha-160 uses a discrete stepped volume control. I read an old review of the ha-160 and the review pointed out that burson at that time was dedicated to using all discrete parts in its products noting the possibility of signal degradation by using ic chips in any part of the design passing the signal through. In any case the ha-160 sounds wonderful using the conductor3 as dac. The conductor 3 is a vey good dac I am using the mid filter. It is resolute and has a nice midrange. I still think my project s2 dac has some advantages over the conductor 3 due to the proprietary optimal transient digital filter that project uses The conductor 3 does have a nicer midrange than the project s2.. The project s2 pre/dac seems to be also somewhat quieter in the extremely low signal area due to the optional battery supply project makes for their s2 line.  I wish burson made a battery isolated power supply for their components . I hear extremely low level information with the project s2 dac/pre that the conductor 3 misses. I attribute it to the total isolation of the battery power supply which isolates the power completely from the mains and their detrimental effects.


----------



## raoultrifan

buson160man said:


> Burson is using a ic chip based volume control.



Only for pre-amp, but if you use the built-in DAC then the volume is adjusted internally, inside the ESS chip (32-bits), like most ESS audio devices.

So, there are no opamps and no capacitors in the audio signal path when using the combo as it is (internal DAC and headamp).


----------



## raoultrifan (Dec 30, 2019)

Marutks said:


> They are going to send me C3-X.



Good news then. 
When have you ordered it?
Here's the C3-X thread: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/new...-3-75wpc-se-headamp-changeable-opamps.918232/


----------



## Marutks

raoultrifan said:


> God news then.
> When have you ordered it?
> /



I had bought C3-ref but it didn't work with my Stellias  ( too much noise ).     Burson agreed to replace it with C3X.


----------



## selvakumar

Marutks said:


> I had bought C3-ref but it didn't work with my Stellias  ( too much noise ).     Burson agreed to replace it with C3X.


 can you describe   ( too much noise ).


----------



## Marutks

There was audible background noise (hiss) with sensitive headphones  (I tried stellias and hd515).    They even sent me second C3-ref but it was no different.


----------



## raoultrifan

This is perfectly normal from such a powerful amplifier. I've no idea why would you want to pair these cans with C3-Ref or with C3-X?

Well, https://www.focal.com/sites/www.foc...og/document/stellia_specification-sheet_0.pdf - that's a 106dB/1mW, so for only 10mW these cans will hit 116dB SPL into your ears!!! You do not need a 5500mW/30Ohms amplifier to drive them. There is a reason why Focal recommends their https://www.focal.com/sites/www.foc...log/document/arche-specification-sheet_en.pdf headamp to drive these extremely sensitive cans, amplifier that has a 5-6 times lower output power than C3-Ref.

Same applies for https://assets.sennheiser.com/global-downloads/file/716/SpecSheet_HD_515_HD_555_HD_595_GB.pdf that is having a sensitivity of 108dB/1V RMS.

The main advantage of all Burson headamps is their pure Class-A high output power and this is achieved with a gain of about 7X; that means there will ever be some audible background noise when using very sensitive cans (e.g.: >100dB/1mW@16Ohms or >103dB/1mW@32Ohms). In my opinion, both of the above headphones were designed for portable equipment and my recommendation for you, if you allow me, is to keep the C3-X for hard-to-drive cans and buy a cheap (but very good) JDS Atom to drive these very sensitive headphones. This way you will have best of both worlds without any compromise!

Meanwhile, worth re-reading Darku's PROs and CONs from his review: https://soundnews.net/sources/dacs/burson-conductor-3-reference-review-calm-like-a-bomb.


----------



## Marutks (Nov 22, 2019)

I had no idea this would happen because Stellias worked with Conductor HA-160D just fine (absolutely no background hiss).
Had Burson implemented gain switch in C3 then everything would have been ok.

Anyway I am going to use C3X with my ZMF Verite.

I think they should warn people about this potential issue with C3.   There is someone on C3X thread who is going to use his AKG K812 with C3X.
AKG K812 is similiar to Stellia sensitivity wise.

Yes,   I agree with Darku's review.   C3 sounds much more engaging than, for example, my Topping DX7 Pro.   Instruments / vocals separation is better too.


----------



## up late (Nov 23, 2019)

raoultrifan said:


> This is perfectly normal from such a powerful amplifier. I've no idea why would you want to pair these cans with C3-Ref or with C3-X?
> 
> Well, https://www.focal.com/sites/www.foc...og/document/stellia_specification-sheet_0.pdf - that's a 106dB/1mW, so for only 10mW these cans will hit 116dB SPL into your ears!!! You do not need a 5500mW/30Ohms amplifier to drive them. There is a reason why Focal recommends their https://www.focal.com/sites/www.foc...log/document/arche-specification-sheet_en.pdf headamp to drive these extremely sensitive cans, amplifier that has a 5-6 times lower output power than C3-Ref.
> 
> ...


the stellia is an efficient dynamic headphone that is designed for both home and portable use. it is suitable for use with mobile phones, laptops, pcs, portable daps, head-amps, etc. it can be driven to ear-splitting volume levels by them all. i think it's likely that most portable daps and desk-top head-amps produce more power than the stellia actually requires, including focal's own arche head-amp/dac.

if the c3 and c3x are most suitable for use with "hard-to-drive-cans", then why does burson audio include a low gain setting for the headphone outputs on both models?

burson audio used to tout the cv2+ thus: "While still a pure Class A designed with Field Effect Transistors, Conductor V2 fully utilize the two 70W transformers to output over 8200 mW per channel into 16ohm. It will comfortably drive the toughest headphone in the world while delicately handling the most sensitive." i would expect the c3 and c3x to do this just as well.


----------



## raoultrifan (Nov 23, 2019)

The low-gain on the C3 combos is done software, from the built-in DAC chip. Basically, it will reduce the output volume that the DAC chip is going to deliver.
On the HA-160D the gain is done electronically, by using a relay that simply changes few resistors from the feedback of the gain-stage (voltage amplification, sort of a pre-amplification for the output transistors).

Here's how the output noise of such a combo can be easily seen:
- DAC noise - really low, will not matter so much these days
- I/V noise - really dependent on the transistors or resistors or opamps used, so it really matters!
- LPF noise - depends on transistors (or opamps) and resistors used!
- VAS (gain stage) - depends a lot on the transistors or opamps used; this also greately depends on the gain used: 1X will be much lower than 5X!
- Output buffer - the gain here is quite low, (could be even 1X), so not matters so much, unless the buffers are in a loop of a really noise opamps or transistors

On the HA-160D the gain relay is placed somewhere between low-pass filter of the DAC and the input-stage or the gain-stage of the built-in headphones amplifier, that means that it will lower all the stages noise coming from the DAC, especially the I/V and LPF noise.

Burson decided to only use digital volume and gain controls due to a very-good in-chip DAC implementation and an almost perfect volume granularity. Also, from what I've seen on several forums, on HA-160D the contacts from the volume knob are very dependent on the room's humidity, cigar smoke or other air factors, while on the C3 these things will matter not.

Like Darku said in his above review, a simply resistor divider like iFi Audio Ear Buddy or iEMatch will resolve the sensitive cans "issue" without loosing the output damping. Feel free to try one of these adapters and come back here with a review after, so we can all understand if that solved your problem or not.

Thanks for seeing my point!


----------



## up late

which point is that exactly?


----------



## raoultrifan

HA-160D has the gain-adjust "point" somewhere between LPF and pre-amplification stage, while C3's gain-adjust is built into the ESS DAC chip (software gain-control, by adjusting the max. output level of the DAC chip).


----------



## up late

thanks for the clarification


----------



## buson160man (Nov 24, 2019)

I have been listening to the combination of my ha-160 using the new conductor in its dac only mode. I am shocked how much better it sounds in the dac output mode. As a dac Burson has hit the ball out of the park. I can hear more detail and the sound is definitely clearer in the dac mode than with the preamp engaged. You owe it t yourselves if you have not tried the new conductor in the dac output mode try it. I think you will be surprised. I had made some observations with my project s2 dac/pre before but after trying the conductor just as a dac sans the preamp stage the perceived advantage I had before have leveled the playing field between the project s2 dac/pre and the optional battery power supply that project makes for it. In fact the conductor in the mid filter mode has a noticeably better reproduction of the midrange than the project. But the project s2 pre/dac with the battery supply is an exceptional sounding option at the combined 649 usd price. But I am using a audioquest mini usb power cable between the battery supply and the s2 dac/pre which made a noticeable improvement on the project combo which adds to the price of the combination a bit.


----------



## raoultrifan

Looks like Black Friday just started: https://www.bursonaudio.com/shop/.


----------



## vnmslsrbms

raoultrifan said:


> Looks like Black Friday just started: https://www.bursonaudio.com/shop/.


Don't forget the promo code 20OFF


----------



## raoultrifan

Forgot to say there's a 20% Coupon Code *"20OFF"* at check-out and get 20% off all Burson Audio Products. 

_"Sales ending Cyber Monday, while stock lasts 

https://www.bursonaudio.com/shop/


Watch out for those items already on sale!  A further 20% applies to already reduced prices!"_


----------



## DjBobby

Holidays season toy has arrived, many thanks to Burson Audio. It looks very cool on the desktop and fits optically well with the Macbook Pro. Looking forward to go though my hi-rez collection and test the unit in the next days for some in-depth audition.


----------



## atmfrank

I am suffering from a serious case of Bursonitis since the V3 arrived about 2 months ago. It has a very addicting quality. Enjoy!


----------



## DjBobby (Dec 22, 2019)

Finalizing slowly my review of the Conductor 3 Ref. Hopefully it will be available soon. I am trying to follow the guidelines of one other company on Head-Fi, which asks the following:
_"Reviewers should do the preview fairly and objectively....Reviewers need not overstate the advantages of the products." _So, trying not to overstate or exaggerate, which doesn't come so easily with the Conductor 3.

Listening at the moment and comparing _Il Giardino Armonico's_ recording of the "The Christmas Concertos" on Teldec, using two orchestra groups set well apart from each other. It shows very clearly soundstage depth. Conductor 3 leaves behind the Swing/Fun combo with the V6 Vivids/Classics in resolution and soundstage depth. The Playmate with Vivids/Classics sound flat and dynamically sterile compared to Conductor 3. The last comparison is with the Play with V6 Classic, which sounds surprisingly fresh and engaging but with literary no soundstage depth, everything is happening lateral.

So describing the Conductor 3 in a single word would be - _soundstage._ Finally.


----------



## atmfrank

DjBobby said:


> Finalizing slowly my review of the Conductor 3 Ref. Hopefully it will be available soon. I am trying to follow the guidelines of one other company on Head-Fi, which asks the following:
> _"Reviewers should do the preview fairly and objectively....Reviewers need not overstate the advantages of the products." _So, trying not to overstate or exaggerate, which doesn't come so easily with the Conductor 3.
> 
> Listening at the moment and comparing _Il Giardino Armonico's_ recording of the "The Christmas Concertos" on Teldec, using two orchestra groups set well apart from each other. It shows very clearly soundstage depth. Conductor 3 leaves behind the Swing/Fun combo with the V6 Vivids/Classics in resolution and soundstage depth. The Play with Vivids/Classics sound flat and dynamically sterile compared to Conductor 3. The last comparison is with the Play with V6 Classic, which sounds surprisingly fresh and engaging but with literary no soundstage depth, everything is happening lateral.
> ...



Yes, and not only is the soundstage amazing, but the stereo imaging also. I often use the V3 as a classic pre-amp powering a decent sized power-amp and Dynaudio two-way speakers. Speakers properly positioned, the speakers "disappear" in the panoramic image. Test music: Pat Metheney - The Road to You (live). The impression is, I don't hear the speakers, can't locate them with eyes closed. All I hear is the music and I am able to pinpoint each instrument location on the stage. This experience rivals much more expensive configurations, as auditioned at high-end audio shows. The V3 does this not just with the DAC, but also when using the Coax/SPDIF and RCA/line-in inputs as sources.


----------



## DjBobby

I have just posted my review of the Conductor 3, I hope you like it. You can read it here: https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/burson-conductor-3-reference.24053/reviews#review-23055


----------



## Cat Music

DjBobby said:


> I have just posted my review of the Conductor 3, I hope you like it. You can read it here: https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/burson-conductor-3-reference.24053/reviews#review-23055


After reading your review I can see that you are delighted with the Burson C3, if it is so good, why don't you buy it?


----------



## DjBobby

Cat Music said:


> After reading your review I can see that you are delighted with the Burson C3, if it is so good, why don't you buy it?


Hmmm....where did I write, I wouldn't?


----------



## Marutks

_>incorporating every single wish of the community?
_
They should have done something to reduce background noise with low impedance headphones.


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## DjBobby (Dec 22, 2019)

Marutks said:


> _>incorporating every single wish of the community?
> _
> They should have done something to reduce background noise with low impedance headphones.


Honestly, can't hear any background noise with low impedance 18 Ohm Momentums. Either a courtesy of my aging ears, or MacBook Pro's clean output. Or maybe both.
I  didn't test it with low impedance iems, as I find it ridiculous to power them with a 7.5 W headphone amp.
With low impedance on-ears, the volume maxed, can't hear any background noise.


----------



## raoultrifan

Marutks said:


> They should have done something to reduce background noise with low impedance headphones.


I guess the intention was never to create a device compatible with IEMs, mostly due to the very high output power of the output buffer (you could blow away your ears with ease). If I remember well, it was the ASUS STU who after every power cycle starts up on the lowest-gain setting to protect customers hearing, but funny thing...they were only blamed due to this safety feature, because most customers that bought the STU had power hungry cans instead of high sensitivity one.

I think that a resistive adapter should do the trick for C3-Ref for now, like many stated on the previous pages, and for a possible future C4 (if will ever exists) maybe Burson will analyze an analogue adjustable gain-stage.


----------



## raoultrifan

DjBobby said:


> With low impedance on-ears, the volume maxed, can't hear any background noise.


Volume to the min. or to the max. should make no difference due to the digital volume used and the digital gain-stage.
It's great that the Momentus have no background noise; I do hope that in the Q1/2020 I will be able to borrow a C3-Ref to have it tested myself too.


----------



## Ultrainferno

Our C3 review is now online, enjoy!

https://www.headfonia.com/burson-conductor-3-review/


----------



## Marutks

*noticeable noise-floor on low-impedance full-sized headphones*

Thank you for noticing this problem! Other reviewers ignored it.
I tried two different c3-ref amplifiers and two different headphones.  They all had very audible background noise.
Now they are sending me c3-x. There is some hope that it will work with ZMF Verite.

*stepped attenuator*

I may be wrong but I think that digital volume control doesn't use stepped attenuator.


----------



## raoultrifan (Dec 30, 2019)

It's not stepped attenuation, indeed, it's a rotary knob that controls the digital volume from inside the two ESS 9038 chips.

C3X has also some noisefloor as well with sensitive cans, after all we're speaking about a several watts per channel amplifier. At least in balanced operation it might be a bit noisier than C3Ref, but I don't think your ZMF Verite are so sensitive at their 300 Ohms.

What version of Verite do you have, Open or Closed?

The closed one has 97dB/mW or 102dB/V, while the Closed one has 99dB/mW or 104dB/V.

For Stellia, at their 120.5dB/V sensitivity, you really need a different amplifier, preferable unity-gain. With C3 even with volume to 1 it will still be to loud for quiet-night listening. C3Ref/C3X is pushing over 20V RMS into these headphones, while they only need 1V to get over 120dB SPL! A unity-gain headamp has a max. output of 2V RMS and quieter background noise as well, but will only be able to drive sensitive cans only.


----------



## Marutks

I have got both open and closed Verite.   I sold my Stellia headphones after what happened with this amplifier.


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## raoultrifan (Dec 30, 2019)

Marutks said:


> I sold my Stellia headphones after what happened with this amplifier


You shouldn't have done that. (
I have an unity-gain headamp purchased only for very sensitive cans. Burson does mostly headamps for power-hungry cans, for those cans that a really hard to drive (not Stellia's case).


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## Marutks

I prefer Verite C to be honest.  It is not like they sound much better.  But you can change pads to tune sound. Also lifetime warranty for drivers is a good thing I guess.


----------



## Mij-Van

Marutks said:


> *noticeable noise-floor on low-impedance full-sized headphones*
> 
> Thank you for noticing this problem! Other reviewers ignored it.
> I tried two different c3-ref amplifiers and two different headphones.  They all had very audible background noise.
> ...


I have noticed mild background noise with certain high sensitivity headphones. It is more like a faint hiss, which you forget once you start listening to the music. But I agree, it is present.


----------



## Mightygrey

Conductor 3 review up live on headfonia.

This is one serious piece of kit


----------



## geoffalter11

Ultrainferno said:


> Our C3 review is now online, enjoy!
> 
> https://www.headfonia.com/burson-conductor-3-review/


Enjoyed the review. I want one... Is there anything else in this price range you feel is comparable?


----------



## gonzfi

Would love to hear comparisons with the Hugo TT2. If this gets close it would be a big saving...


----------



## geoffalter11

gonzfi said:


> Would love to hear comparisons with the Hugo TT2. If this gets close it would be a big saving...


I would too... I am demoing a TT2 right now. Unfortunately,  I don't have a Conducter 3 to compare with. TT2 is pretty amazing. I really want to hear a C3.


----------



## Chik0240

This sounds like good with the amp power for current thirsty planar, but the 9038 is less engaging than the R2R offerings in my opinion


----------



## atmfrank

While it's great to read all the recent glowing reviews of the V3, what is still missing is a direct comparative review against established products. I recall a review of the V2+ in the Headphoneer from 2017. As an owner of the V3, hobbyist and enthusiast I occasionally visit high-end audio shows. I can only go by memory (using the same cans), R2R products sounded very engaging but I would argue the V3 holds it's own and definitely plays in the top league at a more affordable price point. 

Keep in mind the V3 has really three strong points that make it uniquely stand out: the innovative power supply design, the DAC analog filter/gain stage and, last but not least, the implementation of the dual ES9038q2m, which is a chipset used in many newer and excellent performing DAC's. 

I hope Mr. Headphoneer will bring us a 2020 update soon....


----------



## peter123

People that compare the sound between different chip and don't understand that implementation is also a part of the equation don't have a clue imo. I personally put zero trust in such comments. As always YMMV.....


----------



## geoffalter11

peter123 said:


> People that compare the sound between different chip and don't understand that implementation is also a part of the equation don't have a clue imo. I personally put zero trust in such comments. As always YMMV.....


Yes, lots that goes into a great DAC. The chip is probably 20% of the story.  I own an R2R DAC and love it. But, I have heard many DACs better than my current DAC (Vinshine R2R Reference), none of which were R2R. So, whatever the engineers are doing with power supply and all the other parts seems to create something special. I could care less that the Burson is a delta sigma DAC. I care more about what I am hearing and what people I respect are hearing. I haven't gotten the chance to hear it yet, but so far it is being touted as soft, detailed and musical. All terms lavished on R2R DACs. Go figure...


----------



## raoultrifan

geoffalter11 said:


> Is there anything else in this price range you feel is comparable?


Not at this amount of power. I actually think this is one of a kind in the world right now, unless anyone is aware of another "beast" able to deliver such amount of power.


----------



## geoffalter11

raoultrifan said:


> Not at this amount of power. I actually think this is one of a kind in the world right now, unless anyone is aware of another "beast" able to deliver such amount of power.


The Wells Audio Milo puts out this much power, just no DAC. Sounds like the C3 is a pretty special piece.


----------



## raoultrifan

atmfrank said:


> While it's great to read all the recent glowing reviews of the V3, what is still missing is a direct comparative review against established products. I recall a review of the V2+ in the Headphoneer from 2017. As an owner of the V3, hobbyist and enthusiast I occasionally visit high-end audio shows. I can only go by memory (using the same cans), R2R products sounded very engaging but I would argue the V3 holds it's own and definitely plays in the top league at a more affordable price point.
> 
> Keep in mind the V3 has really three strong points that make it uniquely stand out: the innovative power supply design, the DAC analog filter/gain stage and, last but not least, the implementation of the dual ES9038q2m, which is a chipset used in many newer and excellent performing DAC's.
> 
> I hope Mr. Headphoneer will bring us a 2020 update soon....


I did a brief A/B test against V2+ last week, but with the randomly chosen songs it was impossible to tell a winner. In 2020 most of the new audio devices are measuring that well that our ears might not be able to tell a difference with ease. I will dive deep into this more in the coming days and get back with a compare between C3X/CV2/Playmate.

Meanwhile, C3X has way much more power than CV2+, the ability to play DSD512 and 32-bits audio files and to do playback at high-res. quality via BT.


----------



## raoultrifan (Dec 31, 2019)

geoffalter11 said:


> The Wells Audio Milo puts out this much power,


Hey, nice finding, thanks for that, seems that it can rich to 12W/32Ohms and 0.77W/600 Ohms, quite impressive figure.
Although I was able to push *C3X* to 14.75 Watts/30 Ohms just around clipping stage, so a clean free from distortions output of *14W/30 Ohms* is achievable.
I also got *1.26W/600 Ohms* with my C3X, so it's definitely one of the most powerful headamps in the world for sure.

Just found now Enigma and Headtrip II headamps from Wells Audio that can actually rich to 25W/32 Ohms and 1.8W/600 Ohms, so this is probably the most powerful ever built on Earth.  However, it's internal design looks more like a speakers amp than a headphones amp, also its price is on pair too. 

L.E.: Just realised that Wells Audio headamps from above are using a fixed internal gain of +30dB; that means an amplification factor of almost 32X, which will make these headamps impossible to pair with most of existing cans due to the background noise and very high volume. Hope that someone can do a custom order for these amps with a much lower gain (at most +24dB).


----------



## geoffalter11

raoultrifan said:


> Hey, nice finding, thanks for that, seems that it can rich to 12W/32Ohms and 0.77W/600 Ohms, quite impressive figure.
> Although I was able to push *C3X* to 14.75 Watts/30 Ohms just around clipping stage, so a clean free from distortions output of *14W/30 Ohms* is achievable.
> I also got *1.26W/600 Ohms* with my C3X, so it's definitely one of the most powerful headamps in the world for sure.
> 
> Just found now Enigma and Headtrip II headamps from Wells Audio that can actually rich to 25W/32 Ohms and 1.8W/600 Ohms, so this is probably the most powerful ever built on Earth.  However, it's internal design looks more like a speakers amp than a headphones amp, also its price is on pair too.


Exactly. Jeff Wells built the Headtrip and Enigma to mirror the sound and design of his Innomorata Speaker Amps. The Wells sound is extremely musical and quite something. Especially the Headtrip. Insane piece of kit, for a lot of cash... The C3X is extremely powerful. Can't wait to read your review. I used to own a Milo. Loved it for it's midrange and overall musical nature.


----------



## raoultrifan

Too bad they don't have a two-gain selector, one for +30dB and another one for...let's say +20dB. This will make their headamps compatible with much more cans.
Unfortunately my review will need to wait, week maybe, because I might be received a beta-test or pre-production unit. I'm waiting Burson to send me a new unit, hope in January, so I can compare figures and findings and then I'll be able to publish my review.

Meanwhile I was ale to find this huge amount of power and a SNR of 120dB.


----------



## Mightygrey

A question for the C3 thread subscribers - might it be possible to use both the 6.3mm headphone outputs to run a balanced pair of headphones via an adapter, like the way the Mytek Brooklyn DAC+ works?


----------



## Audio Addict

Mightygrey said:


> A question for the C3 thread subscribers - might it be possible to use both the 6.3mm headphone outputs to run a balanced pair of headphones via an adapter, like the way the Mytek Brooklyn DAC+ works?



If you have the proper adapter, yes but it is running the balanced cable as a single ended since the separate grounds become a common ground into the adapter.


----------



## raoultrifan

Mightygrey said:


> A question for the C3 thread subscribers - might it be possible to use both the 6.3mm headphone outputs to run a balanced pair of headphones via an adapter, like the way the Mytek Brooklyn DAC+ works?


Per https://mytekdigital.com/download_library/manuals/Brooklyn_DAC+_manual.pdf:
_"Headphone Output Section, Dual Mono, with Balanced Operation mode [500mA, 6 Watts]. Left jack connects unbalanced phones in absolute phase. Right jack connects unbalanced phones in absolute out of phase. A special 2x 1/4" jack to 4 pin FXLR allows for connection of single balanced headpones. Balanced headphones will play twice as loud (+6dB) as unbalanced headphones with output voltage swing of +-12V and output impedance below 0.5 Ohm".
_
AFAIK C3Ref's amplifier works either in bridged mode, either in dual stereo, so there is no way to correctly drive balanced headphones like you intend to.

Instead you could buy a 4-pin to 3-pole adapter, so you can safely use balanced cans from the jack socket: https://www.amazon.com/6-35mm-Femal...er/dp/B00KQRN306#immersive-view_1578051021600. Or you can lookup for the pinout and build one yourself, like I did.


----------



## Mij-Van (Jan 4, 2020)

I have posted my review of the Conductor 3 Reference here: https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/burson-conductor-3-reference.24053/reviews#review-23099


----------



## raoultrifan

You wanna say C3Ref. 
With what exact headphones did you got the background noise, please?


----------



## Mij-Van (Jan 4, 2020)

raoultrifan said:


> You wanna say C3Ref.
> With what exact headphones did you got the background noise, please?


Thank you! 
Hissing with Senns CX 300 II and AKG/Samsung.


----------



## raoultrifan

Mij-Van said:


> Senns CX 300 II


130dB/V per manufacturer specs (113dB/mw @16Ohms) and also per https://reference-audio-analyzer.pro/en/param1.php?id=1226#i1226, so extremely sensitive IEM's.



Mij-Van said:


> AKG/Samsung


Which models, please? Just trying to find out the SPL for them and post here, just in case might be helpful for some of us.


----------



## Mij-Van

raoultrifan said:


> 130dB/V per manufacturer specs (113dB/mw @16Ohms) and also per https://reference-audio-analyzer.pro/en/param1.php?id=1226#i1226, so extremely sensitive IEM's.
> 
> 
> Which models, please? Just trying to find out the SPL for them and post here, just in case might be helpful for some of us.


Sorry, no idea about the AKGs, they were OEMs. I guess they are less sensitive than Senns, because the noise floor is much lower but it is still noticeable. 

My question is rather why some much cheaper amps don't have any hissing, while the C3-Ref has it? Is it because of the excessive power or rather because of the non-linear power supply? I would appreciate if the previous versions owners of the Conductor with the LPS could chime in. Also would changing the op-amps help for that matter? I am just curious how to dot an i on otherwise gorgeous sounding amp.


----------



## peter123

Yes, the more power the greater the possibility for hiss/background noise. 

Seriously though, no one that knows anything about what they're doing would get such a powerful device and use it with IEM's, it's totally meaningless. 

Even testing it with sub $25 and phone freebie IEM's should be for pure scientific reasons.


----------



## Strat1117

Mij-Van said:


> Sorry, no idea about the AKGs, they were OEMs. I guess they are less sensitive than Senns, because the noise floor is much lower but it is still noticeable.
> 
> My question is rather why some much cheaper amps don't have any hissing, while the C3-Ref has it? Is it because of the excessive power or rather because of the non-linear power supply? I would appreciate if the previous versions owners of the Conductor with the LPS could chime in. Also would changing the op-amps help for that matter? I am just curious how to dot an i on otherwise gorgeous sounding amp.



It has to do with the sensitivity of your iems. You can probably make it disappear by using a lower gain setting, but I’ve found that the Burson amps sound best in the highest gain setting, small amount of hiss notwithstanding.


----------



## Mightygrey

I found hissing in low gain with Grado PS500e and Meze 99 Classics.


----------



## raoultrifan (Jan 5, 2020)

Mij-Van said:


> My question is rather why some much cheaper amps don't have any hissing, while the C3-Ref has it? Is it because of the excessive power or rather because of the non-linear power supply?


Cheaper amps are using lower voltage rails (+/-12V, +/-15 or +/-18V), while C3 has 2 dual power supplies of +/-20V each. But C3' regulators are very low-noise, so this is not an issue at all.
High voltage and high power amplifiers need to do their basic thing: to amplify! You can't amplify if you don't increase the gain, so the basic rule applies: more gain = more background noise, although is only audible to highly sensitive IEM's.



Mij-Van said:


> I would appreciate if the previous versions owners of the Conductor with the LPS could chime in


Compared C3X with CV2+: on USB-in the CV2+ is a bit noisier with sensitive IEMs, while on the Analogue-in is on par with C3X.
I've also tested C3X with an external linear PSU (0.5mV ripple), just for fun, although original SMPS from Burson was very low-noise anyway (2.5mV ripple). C3X performed admirably with any of the two supplies and with 121dB/V SPL IEMs it a fair amount of background noise that was constant with both supplies, so a linear PSU will not help in lowering the background noise with headphones (IEMs are just not a good pairing with such a powerful headamp). Feel free to check below pics:


 ​


Mij-Van said:


> Also would changing the op-amps help for that matter?


Nope, the noise comes from the higher gain needed to achieve a huge amount of power, but feel free to try OPA1612.



Mij-Van said:


> I am just curious how to dot an i on otherwise gorgeous sounding amp.


Not sure I got this, but you can anytime get an https://ifi-audio.com/products/ear-buddy/ or https://diyaudioheaven.wordpress.com/headphones/headphone-attenuation-adapter/ and forget it in the 3.5mm jack socket for use only with sensitive IEMs, while the 6.3mm socket can be used with normal cans. I'd call this a win-win, without affecting the damping factor, nor the audio quality.


----------



## ppolonen

Ι wonder how does Burson conductor 3 compare to V1, I know the DAC section has improved quite a bit but how about the amplifier sound quality? I still enjoy the V1 and there is something magical about the design and the sound quality that I like still after all these years V3 looks nice, with digital screen and modern, but the minimalistic, bulky, sturdy V1 appeals to me (not to mention the stepwise click when turning the volume up).


----------



## raoultrifan

@ppolonen, there's a tiny stepwise click on the C3X & C3Ref as well. 

I don't have the CV1, but CV2+ next to C3X can be seen below.

 ​
The MCPS is an incredible thing Burson did and I'm pleased that their technology achieved the maturity to get successfully integrated into a Conductor unit.

Also, C3X's amplifier is the beefiest ever done by Burson Audio and also the first balanced one done by them too.

BT playback is also an upgrade over the previous Conductors.

If you're not interested about the above upgrades, then probably you don't need to upgrade for the moment. Or you could just visit a store and check the C3X for yourself (or buy it from an in-country online store and return it within few days).


----------



## raoultrifan (Jan 9, 2020)

ppolonen said:


> Ι wonder how does Burson conductor 3 compare to V1, I know the DAC section has improved quite a bit but how about the amplifier sound quality?


L.E.: I will upload some measurements done on real headphones (I can't find the right screenshots now, but I will after the morning coffee).

From a THD perspective seems that the C3X is a bit improved over the CV2+. Unfortunately, I don't have access to CV1.


----------



## up late

not according to burson audio:

c3x - THD: <0.0015%
web link: https://www.bursonaudio.com/products/conductor-3x/

cv2+ - THD: <0.003%
web link: https://www.bursonaudio.com/products/conductor-v2-plus/


----------



## raoultrifan

up late said:


> not according to burson audio:


Not sure to what question are you referring, sorry,
However, a THD of 0.0015% is lower than 0.003%. Also. my CV2+ is noisier on sensitive headphones than C3X when using USB input,


----------



## up late

i was referring to your previous post but i stand corrected anyway, as i assumed that less than 0.003% thd was lower than 0.0015%. i've always been a maths dummy.


----------



## Marutks

Mij-Van said:


> My question is rather why some much cheaper amps don't have any hissing, while the C3-Ref has it? I am just curious how to dot an i on otherwise gorgeous sounding amp.



C3X has SE output.   It works better with,  for example,  Verite headphones.   No background noise when using SE output. 
Another option is to connect C3 to another amplifier.    I connected C3X to THX 887.   Now it works even with IEMs.


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## DjBobby

OK, I got my hands again on the C3 and could reminded myself again what a great unit this is.

I was trying to understand what you guys were talking about regarding the hiss. As I have written in my previous posts, maybe due to my aging ears and using only big guns, I couldn't detect any background noise. Now I have tried some more sensitive on-ears like Sony MDR-1 with sensitivity of 120.13 dB/V SPL or 105.32 dB/mW SPL and average impedance of 33.09 ohm, as measured on https://reference-audio-analyzer.pro/en/user-report.php?id=318 and B&W P3 Series 2 with 111dB/V on 34 Ohms. 
When I was listening very carefully and really focused on it, I could hear a faint noise. But I had to really strain myself to hear it. Once the music started it was over. 

As I also previously stated, it would never come to my mind to use any sensitive earphones with any desktop amp, especially with the highly potent C3, because it would be an overkill. I am generally not a fan of in-ears thanks to my big ears and narrow ear canal. I have decided to test it with the only decent IEMs I have around, with the recently purchased Jade Audio EA3. EA3 are very sensitive with 108dB/mW on 18 ohms. I have connected them only as a magnifying glass and out of curiosity. Once connected, I could finally hear the background noise you were talking about. Yes it is there, but to me it sounded like some digital interference or maybe dirty mains leaking into the electronics. This noise was constant, not a volume pot dependent and also not gain dependent. To my humble amateur knowledge in electronic, if the noise was caused by the amplification, it should also change the intensity with the gain setting, but it didn't.

Now I have turned on Burson's Fun, plugged in the same EA3 and there was a black background. Silence. Switched the C3's output to the dac-out and connected it to the Fun and the faint noise was now detectable but only with the volume knob turned to the max. The benefit of the analogue volume control was quite obvious, when the volume was lowered to normal listening level, the noise moved parallel down to practically disappearing on the normal listening position. Turn the volume high and the noise came out, but much softer than on the C3 itself. Since this slight hiss was also on the dac-out, it has nothing to do with the C3 amplification, because the dac-out bypasses headphone amplification. Rather it is some kind of digital dirt which might be coming either from the RFI sensitive digital section or is simply a mains noise. 

If I would be planing to use the C3 with low impedance and insanely sensitive IEMs, maybe the slight hissing would be an issue. But I am not. Back to listening the C3, this time with the Senns HD650 plugged in and a glass of Australian Shiraz (or two). I swear I can't anything except the music


----------



## atmfrank

FWIW, I use the C3 mainly with 99.8/32 Ohm Grado RS2e and 102/300 Ohm HD800s. No noise whatsoever with the Grado's, dark silence at volume setting 100 and output high. I am not an IEM fan, but I have a pair of cheap QKZ VK4 (105/16 Ohm) with the same results. Interestingly, with those, I picked up some small amount of noise on the previous CV2+, but not on the C3.


----------



## Marutks

I can clearly hear background noise with Verite and Verite C headphones.    I am baffled why there is such difference (no noise for some).
Perhaps it is UK mains noise.  I have heard it may affect some tube amps.


----------



## raoultrifan

@Marutks, test your C3 with some more headphones and post back here.

Maybe your C3 has a much higher gain settings inside the amplifier or some grounding issue. In both cases you'll need to ping Burson, but meanwhile you need to test some more cans.


----------



## Marutks

One of c3-ref amps was still here. I could hear the same noise as with c3x (from XLR).  
Now I have tried 3 amps.   There is no noise only if I use Verite connected to SE output of c3x.
And LCD2 had no noise with c3ref.


----------



## raoultrifan

So now you have one C3Ref & one C3X at home?

Could u pls post here what exact headphones have you tested wth these amps on 6.3mm jack?
Optionally, the XLR jack hiss could be added later.

Thank you!


----------



## Marutks

With c3ref I tested Stellias, HD515, LCD2 and Verite.   Only LCD2 didn't have background noise.
I have only c3x now.  I tried Verite and HD515.  No background noise with Verite on 6.3mm jack.


----------



## raoultrifan

Well, then you're OK, I guess. Keep the balanced output for hard to drive cans and the jack one for medium sensitivity cans.


----------



## Cat Music

raoultrifan said:


> Well, then you're OK, I guess. Keep the balanced output for hard to drive cans and the jack one for medium sensitivity cans.


that would work with the C3X but with the C3ref I will have no choice


----------



## raoultrifan

Cat Music said:


> that would work with the C3X but with the C3ref I will have no choice


Right, then an https://ifi-audio.com/products/iematch/ should do, or contact Burson Audio, maybe they can provide you another device with a lower internal gain in exchange.


----------



## Tweakybiff

Marutks said:


> Burson Conductor 3 has white noise (hiss) with Focal Stellia headphones.       Does it not happen with other low impedance cans?


I believe this is a problem.  I took delivery of a Conductor 3X, connected my LCD-3s, and heard hiss with the volume at zero, and nothing connected.  I reported this to Burson, and they sent me a replacement unit, which is silent.  Silence is definitely a requirement IMHO.


----------



## Marutks (Jan 15, 2020)

They sent me 3 replacement units and nothing helped.

I use my C3 as an expensive DAC now ,  connected to my THX amp  and problem solved


----------



## raoultrifan

Sensitive cans are for portable amps, while a desktop amp like C3X or C3Ref is for mid&hard-to-drive cans.

If LCD-3 has hiss, like @Tweakybiff used to have, then Burson will most likely replace it, if you intend to use C3X/C3Ref with high-sensitivity headphones then either you will use IEMatch, either you purchase a different headamp, like HPA4, which is the also able to drive cans up to about 6W/ch. Of course, a very good alternative can also be THX 789 and Monolith 788 (these will drive most cans for sure), but in terms of absolute power these amps can't compete with HPA4 nor with C3X/C3Ref.

What I do like most to C3X & C3Ref is their huge power reserve, due to their instant current (5A/rail) power supply and their beefier output stage of about 13.5W/channel, so this amp was definitely not meant to drive very sensitive headphones.


----------



## raoultrifan

Marutks said:


> I have only c3x now. I tried Verite and HD515. No background noise with Verite on 6.3mm jack.


If you're referring to the 6.3mm jack output, then it's kind of strange, due to the 113.7dB/V measured sensitivity of the HD515 cans.


----------



## raoultrifan

Marutks said:


> I have only c3x now. I tried Verite and HD515. No background noise with Verite on 6.3mm jack.


If we're referring to the 6.3mm jack output, then it's kind of strange, due to the 113.7dB/V measured sensitivity of HD515 cans.


geoffalter11 said:


> The C3X is extremely powerful. Can't wait to read your review. I used to own a Milo. Loved it for it's midrange and overall musical nature.


I'll get the next unit next week, so I do hope to be able to finish my review in at about 2 weeks. Like I stated in the C3X thread, the actual C3X has a higher-than-usual gain, so used to have some hiss with sensitive cans, like few Head-Fiers from here as well. The advantage of the higher-gain would be the extreme output power (up to about 14W/channel), while the new unit will probably have a lower max. output power, but a much darker background.


----------



## up late (Jan 16, 2020)

raoultrifan said:


> Sensitive cans are for portable amps, while a desktop amp like C3X or C3Ref is for mid&hard-to-drive cans.
> 
> If LCD-3 has hiss, like @Tweakybiff used to have, then Burson will most likely replace it, if you intend to use C3X/C3Ref with high-sensitivity headphones then either you will use IEMatch, either you purchase a different headamp, like HPA4, which is the also able to drive cans up to about 6W/ch. Of course, a very good alternative can also be THX 789 and Monolith 788 (these will drive most cans for sure), but in terms of absolute power these amps can't compete with HPA4 nor with C3X/C3Ref.
> 
> What I do like most to C3X & C3Ref is their huge power reserve, due to their instant current (5A/rail) power supply and their beefier output stage of about 13.5W/channel, so this amp was definitely not meant to drive very sensitive headphones.


you've made that distinction before but there are any number of desk-top head-amps that are suited to driving "sensitive cans". yes, both the cv3ref and cv3x are powerful desk-top head-amps, but it is not unreasonable for potential purchasers to expect them to drive headphones ranging from efficient dynamics to hard to drive planar magnetics. there are head-fi'ers who have both types of headphones in their collections and would be attracted to these two integrated "reference" products to drive them.

the cv2+, which was burson audio's previous totl model, is also a powerful desk-top head-amp and was promoted thus: "... conductor v2 fully utilise the two 70w transformers to output over 8200 mw per channel into 16ohm. it will comfortably drive the toughest headphone in the world while delicately handling the most sensitive."

burson audio claims that its new max current power supply in the c3ref "...raises frequency from 50hz to 170khz pushing noise beyond human hearing..." and "...through a quieter, darker background, microdynamics propels forward by the sheer energy of the conductor 3x..." i don't see burson audio recommending anywhere on its site that "the best dac / headphone amp / preamp" should be used with hard to drive planar magnetic headphones for "best results".


----------



## DjBobby (Jan 16, 2020)

raoultrifan said:


> I stated in the C3X thread, the actual C3X has a higher-than-usual gain, so used to have some hiss with sensitive cans, like few Head-Fiers from here as well. The advantage of the higher-gain would be the extreme output power (up to about 14W/channel), while the new unit will probably have a lower max. output power, but a much darker background.


Thank you @raoultrifan for many technically insightful comments and measurements. As everything today is done on the software level, using dac chip own architecture, I guess the gain output is also managed by the ESS chip. I was wondering would it be theoretically possible by simple firmware update to add one more gain stage? Or even better to have infinitely variable gain adjustment where everybody could find a sweet spot for own headphones.


----------



## raoultrifan

up late said:


> you've made that distinction before but there are any number of desk-top head-amps that are suited to driving "sensitive cans". yes, both the cv3ref and cv3x are powerful desk-top head-amps, but it is not unreasonable for potential purchasers to expect them to drive headphones ranging from efficient dynamics to hard to drive planar magnetics. there are head-fi'ers who have both types of headphones in their collections and would be attracted to these two integrated "reference" products to drive them.
> 
> the cv2+, which was burson audio's previous totl model, is also a powerful desk-top head-amp and was promoted thus: "... conductor v2 fully utilise the two 70w transformers to output over 8200 mw per channel into 16ohm. it will comfortably drive the toughest headphone in the world while delicately handling the most sensitive."
> 
> burson audio claims that its new max current power supply in the c3ref and c3x "... raises frequency from 50hz to 170khz pushing noise beyond human hearing." i don't see burson audio recommending anywhere on its site that "the best dac / headphone amp / preamp" should be used with hard to drive planar magnetic headphones for "best results".


I know what you're saying, but the noise from inside C3Ref/C3X is not coming from the power supply, but from the very high output power it delivers.

Worth mentioning that when speaking about sensitive IEM's, designed for portable use, regular desktop headamp might hiss a bit. Even the SMSL SP200 THX AAA 888 is incompatible with several IEM's on both Low/High gain settings.

Also, on USB DAC input my CV2+ has a higher background noise than C3X on it's jack output.


----------



## raoultrifan

DjBobby said:


> Thank you @raoultrifan for many technically insightful comments and measurements. As everything today is done on the software level, using dac chip own architecture, I guess the gain output is also managed by the ESS chip. I was wondering would it be theoretically possible by simple firmware update to add one more gain stage? Or even better to have infinitely variable gain adjustment where everybody cold find a sweet spot for own headphones.


AFAIK the gain of the analogue amplifier is fixed and can't be changed from firmware. Existing gain setting we all see in C3Ref's LCD menu is actually a great feature to protect our hearing when using easy-to-drive headphones, so it's a digital attenuator that controls DAC chips max. output voltage.


----------



## up late (Jan 16, 2020)

raoultrifan said:


> I know what you're saying, but the noise from inside C3Ref/C3X is not coming from the power supply, but from the very high output power it delivers.
> 
> Worth mentioning that when speaking about sensitive IEM's, designed for portable use, regular desktop headamp might hiss a bit. Even the SMSL SP200 THX AAA 888 is incompatible with several IEM's on both Low/High gain settings.
> 
> Also, on USB DAC input my CV2+ has a higher background noise than C3X on it's jack output.


wherever the noise is coming from within the c3ref and cx3, it is still coming from them and that is the problem that owners/users have been reporting.

i agree that pairing iem's (which are designed for portable use) with any desk-top head-amp seems impractical, but you referred to "sensitive cans" in your previous post, which is a term that i associate with headphones rather than iem's and earphones.

i note that according to burson audio's published specs, the dac's thd+n is 0.0005% @ 1khz, 0dbfs, for the c3ref, c3x and cv2+. anyway, i don't hear any background noise using my efficient dynamic headphones with the cv2+'s usb dac input, which is good enough for me.


----------



## raoultrifan (Jan 20, 2020)

I just got an iFi EarBuddy and worth mentioning that it works absolutely marvellous with C3X and there's absolutely zero background noise now, tested with KZ AS10, KZ ZSX and Superlux HD381F. It has a bit over 18 Ohms of input impedance and less than 4 Ohms output impedance and tested with 22 Ohms KZ AS10 (2 Ohms are the cables, 20 Ohms are the headphones) it doesn't change the sound at all. I've also tested it with basshead songs, but also with 30 Hz sinewaves.






 ​
I totally recommend iMatch or EarBuddy with C3 or any desktop headamp. With highly sensitive IEMs like KZ AS10 or KZ ZSX (about 130dB/V sensitivity) even my very-low noise Objective2 amplifier that works in unity-gain starts having hiss-noise after passing 12 o'clock (no inputs connected).


----------



## Amuro_Rey

Hi all !
A C3 ref just arrived at my home after a V2+ and many other BursonAudio, I have some little question about the settings of the new C3 ... the filter settings 
Any explanation about that ?
Any suggestion of how will be the most right configuration ?
Is it right that if I put in OFF both the DPLL DSD and PCM I can hear nothing also if I'm using COAXIAL or RC input ?

FIR FILTER: BRICKWALL / CMFR / RESERVED/ AP FAST* / MP SLOW/ MP FAST/LP SLOW/ LP FAST
DPLL (DSD): DPLL OFF / LOW / MID / HI*
DPLL (PCM): DPLL OFF / LOW / MID / HI*
DE-EMPHASIS: ON / OFF*

Any suggestion ?

Tks


----------



## raoultrifan

Same digital filters as Swing and Playmate, so feel free to check this out: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/new...hangeable-opamps.894619/page-15#post-14782397.

I wouldn't change DPLL, although you can read some here: https://soundnews.net/sources/dacs/burson-playmate-review/.


----------



## atmfrank

Amuro_Rey said:


> Hi all !
> A C3 ref just arrived at my home after a V2+ and many other BursonAudio, I have some little question about the settings of the new C3 ... the filter settings
> Any explanation about that ?
> Any suggestion of how will be the most right configuration ?
> ...



Probably the best explanation on configurable DPLL settings is found here: https://hifiduino.wordpress.com/sabre32/ 

The one-line takeaway: The lower the bandwidth settings, the higher the jitter rejection (related to internal re-clocking features). It's not clear to me if a higher DPLL setting (lesser jitter rejection) has any audible effects. 

From my own experience, when using DSD256 source material, or anything upsampled to >DSD128, I have to select "high" in order to maintain the lock. My personal default setting is to upsample to DSD128 (in software), for which the "med" settings provide a steady lock. 

Cheers and enjoy this amazing device.


----------



## raoultrifan

After couple one full month of intensive testing and listening (thank's God I had a very long Christmas vacation!) I was finally able to finish my review on the C3X: https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/burson-conductor-3x.24156/reviews#review-23194.

Worth mentioning that the amplifier inside both C3X and C3Ref unit is identical, what I wasn't able to find out yet is if the amplifiers from inside the C3Ref are connected in bridge or separated (two per each jack socket). This is something that I will find out in few weeks, after @DarKu will send me his unit for a review. However, C3X and C3Ref are 99% the same devices, just the way output plugs are connected is different, so I guess all reviews to both units might worth sharing on both threads.


----------



## DjBobby

raoultrifan said:


> After couple one full month of intensive testing and listening (thank's God I had a very long Christmas vacation!) I was finally able to finish my review on the C3X: https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/burson-conductor-3x.24156/reviews#review-23194.
> 
> Worth mentioning that the amplifier inside both C3X and C3Ref unit is identical, what I wasn't able to find out yet is if the amplifiers from inside the C3Ref are connected in bridge or separated (two per each jack socket). This is something that I will find out in few weeks, after @DarKu will send me his unit for a review. However, C3X and C3Ref are 99% the same devices, just the way output plugs are connected is different, so I guess all reviews to both units might worth sharing on both threads.


Excellent, very detailed review. 
Have you measured the voltage output on fixed and pre-amp out?


----------



## raoultrifan

*4.49V RMS on fixed XLR output*



*11.9V RMS on pre-amped XLR output*
(at 77% we have exact 4V RMS)​


----------



## raoultrifan

​Just got from @DarKu (soundnews.net) a C3Ref to have it reviewed, many thanks mate!

Pretty similar inside, same output buffer, just fewer transistors than C3X, due to having two amplifier rails inside instead of four rails like C3X. Enough power to drive about all headphones out there, same LCD menus, same functionalities.

I was able to get a clean non-clipped 14V RMS out of C3Ref versus 27V RMS on C3X in balanced operation, so C3X has more "juice" when balanced. However, on the jack plug C3X has a lower output voltage than C3R.


----------



## DjBobby

raoultrifan said:


> ​Just got from @DarKu (soundnews.net) a C3Ref to have it reviewed, many thanks mate!
> 
> Pretty similar inside, same output buffer, just fewer transistors than C3X, due to having two amplifier rails inside instead of four rails like C3X. Enough power to drive about all headphones out there, same LCD menus, same functionalities.
> 
> I was able to get a clean non-clipped 14V RMS out of C3Ref versus 27V RMS on C3X in balanced operation, so C3X has more "juice" when balanced. However, on the jack plug C3X has a lower output voltage than C3R.


Great looking picture. What is the measured voltage on the jack plugs?


----------



## raoultrifan (Jan 28, 2020)

Hi Bobby,

Copy-paste from my above post: _"I was able to get a clean non-clipped *14V RMS out of C3Ref *versus *27V RMS on C3X in balanced operation*, so C3X has more "juice" when balanced. However, on the jack plug C3X has a lower output voltage than C3R"_ (13.6V RMS vs. 14V RMS).


----------



## DjBobby

raoultrifan said:


> Hi Bobby,
> 
> Copy-paste from my above post: _"I was able to get a clean non-clipped *14V RMS out of C3Ref *versus *27V RMS on C3X in balanced operation*, so C3X has more "juice" when balanced. However, on the jack plug C3X has a lower output voltage than C3R"_ (13.6V RMS vs. 14V RMS).


Sorry, my typo.  I meant the voltage of the fixed rca line-out.


----------



## raoultrifan

Oh, sorry, haven't measured yet. I'll get back to you soon.


----------



## DjBobby

I was not aware until today that the Bluetooth is active all the time. I was expecting to be switched on only when choosing BT input, but it is active from the moment you turn the C3 on, regardless if you are using USB, Coax or Line input. 
It would be nice to be able to turn off the Bluetooth when not in use, as it might also introduce some RFI/EMI to the circuit.


----------



## raoultrifan

DjBobby said:


> Sorry, my typo. I meant the voltage of the fixed rca line-out.


- 2.33V RMS on fixed level RCA
- 7.55V RMS on the pre-amped RCA (@77% there is 2V RMS).

Hope that helps.


----------



## raoultrifan

DjBobby said:


> I was not aware until today that the Bluetooth is active all the time. I was expecting to be switched on only when choosing BT input, but it is active from the moment you turn the C3 on, regardless if you are using USB, Coax or Line input.
> It would be nice to be able to turn off the Bluetooth when not in use, as it might also introduce some RFI/EMI to the circuit.


On my C3X BT is OFF if you're not using it (while being on USB), but on C3R I also noticed that lights from BT are blinking. However, there are different BT cards.
Not sure it's an advantage is BT stays OFF, but probably a firmware update should do the trick...I guess.


----------



## DjBobby

raoultrifan said:


> - 2.33V RMS on fixed level RCA
> - 7.55V RMS on the pre-amped RCA (@77% there is 2V RMS).
> 
> Hope that helps.


Thanks a lot, much appreciated! 



raoultrifan said:


> On my C3X BT is OFF if you're not using it (while being on USB), but on C3R I also noticed that lights from BT are blinking. However, there are different BT cards.
> Not sure it's an advantage is BT stays OFF, but probably a firmware update should do the trick...I guess.


Very interesting about using different BT cards, despite using the same CSR8675 SoC.


----------



## DjBobby

I have asked Dennis from the Burson Audio about the Bluetooth on C3 and got, as always, very quick response. 

The current production Conductor 3 does not offer to power off of the BT module. It will be implemented in the next revision in the next couple of months. The update needs to add a control relay to the main PCB.


----------



## raoultrifan

DjBobby said:


> The current production Conductor 3 does not offer to power off of the BT module. It will be implemented in the next revision in the next couple of months. The update needs to add a control relay to the main PCB.


But what do you mean by powering off the BT module? When you listen to USB you can actually search Burson BT with your cellphone?


----------



## DjBobby

raoultrifan said:


> But what do you mean by powering off the BT module? When you listen to USB you can actually search Burson BT with your cellphone?


Exactly. 
If I am using the USB or any other input on the C3, my iPhone still sees and connects to the Burson BT. Of course, I can then disconnect manually but still the C3 BT is listed as available, sending the signal all the time. 

I have checked my Marantz NA6006 Network Audio Player which also offers switchable BT connection. Unless I specifically turn on the BT, the iPhone doesn't see the NA6006. 
Marantz manual states about Bluetooth communications: _Radio waves broadcast from this unit may interfere with the operation of medical devices. Make sure you turn off the power of this unit and Bluetooth device in the following locations as radio wave interference may cause malfunctions: Hospitals, trains, aircraft, petrol kiosks and places where flammable gases are generated / Near automatic doors and fire alarms.
_
Now, of course, I wouldn't take the C3 to the hospital, train, aircraft or petrol kiosk with me . But being exposed to the BT radio waves while sitting long next to the C3 and listening to the music through the USB not either. Personally I always switch off the BT on all my devices when the BT is not in use.


----------



## EternalChampion (Jan 31, 2020)

DjBobby said:


> I have asked Dennis from the Burson Audio about the Bluetooth on C3 and got, as always, very quick response.
> 
> The current production Conductor 3 does not offer to power off of the BT module. It will be implemented in the next revision in the next couple of months. The update needs to add a control relay to the main PCB.



A revision just for the BT operation? If that so, I assume it won't be an official one but rather a silent update like with C3X.

Mine hasn't even finished the burn-in process yet and I'm hearing already for new revisions. 

Btw, C3R is an amazing sounding device indeed but I won't comment any further right now because like I expected, the sound keeps improving with use mainly because of the Burson op-amps and Vivids are no exception, but the sound also changes, so it seems that digital filters will come in handy eventually.

PS. If inspector Clouseau was to open his mailbox for the V6 Classics, that would be "my yellow friends".   On the way.


----------



## pbarach

I have a Burson HA-160; generally, I like the sound with Sennheiser HD600 and Focal Clears, but the wide steps on the volume control are a constant annoyance (it's often either too soft or too loud with no in-between "just right" step). For those of you who have heard the Conductor 3 and also the HA-160, what are the differences in sound quality besides more steps in the Conductor's volume control?


----------



## Marutks

I had HA-160D.  C3X sounds better.


----------



## Marutks

Does anyone want my C3X?    I have moved on to ECP T4 and tubes.


----------



## mudguardiain

Has anyone had problems connecting to Melco N1A, I cannot get the C3 to connect via the usb. Never had problems with previous Conductors & my 2Qute works fine. Managed to connect to a MacBook no problems but unless I can get it ti work with the Melco it will be a non starter for me, do not want to replace the Melco so may stick with my Burson CV2/2qute for time being.


----------



## Slim1970

mudguardiain said:


> Has anyone had problems connecting to Melco N1A, I cannot get the C3 to connect via the usb. Never had problems with previous Conductors & my 2Qute works fine. Managed to connect to a MacBook no problems but unless I can get it ti work with the Melco it will be a non starter for me, do not want to replace the Melco so may stick with my Burson CV2/2qute for time being.


Try a different USB cable if you’re currently using the stock cable. I had a lot of issues trying to connect sources to my Conductor 3X with stock cable. Once I switched to a different cable, my connection issues were resolved.


----------



## mudguardiain

Slim1970 said:


> Try a different USB cable if you’re currently using the stock cable. I had a lot of issues trying to connect sources to my Conductor 3X with stock cable. Once I switched to a different cable, my connection issues were resolved.


Thank for the advice. Currently my friend has the C3 so I will try it some time soon hopefully.


----------



## VictorRad

Hi folks, I recently bought Conductor 3 and I really like how it sounds and power for my Hifiman Arya. I noticed the amp produces heat to the point I want to take my hands off it. Especially on the sides and bottom. I wonder if it is normal? And I would like to have it always turned on. Have anyone measured how much kilowatt-hour energy it consumes? Thanks for your helpful answers!


----------



## Slim1970

VictorRad said:


> Hi folks, I recently bought Conductor 3 and I really like how it sounds and power for my Hifiman Arya. I noticed the amp produces heat to the point I want to take my hands off it. Especially on the sides and bottom. I wonder if it is normal? And I would like to have it always turned on. Have anyone measured how much kilowatt-hour energy it consumes? Thanks for your helpful answers!


That doesn't sound normal at all. I have the 3X and mine barely gets warm. I'm not sure how much energy it consumes. Burson doesn't list it on their website either.


----------



## raoultrifan

VictorRad said:


> Hi folks, I recently bought Conductor 3 and I really like how it sounds and power for my Hifiman Arya. I noticed the amp produces heat to the point I want to take my hands off it. Especially on the sides and bottom. I wonder if it is normal? And I would like to have it always turned on. Have anyone measured how much kilowatt-hour energy it consumes? Thanks for your helpful answers!



Arya needs some more power tan most cans, due to their 90dB SPL, so I guess it is normal for C3 to get warm after 1-2 hours of power on and playback.
I've tested C3 and it gets warm, but not so warm as the C3X, but still warm. With my C3X on top of CV2+ and both powered on, after 2-3 hours both units were quite hot.


----------



## VictorRad

Slim1970 said:


> That doesn't sound normal at all. I have the 3X and mine barely gets warm. I'm not sure how much energy it consumes. Burson doesn't list it on their website either.





raoultrifan said:


> Arya needs some more power tan most cans, due to their 90dB SPL, so I guess it is normal for C3 to get warm after 1-2 hours of power on and playback.
> I've tested C3 and it gets warm, but not so warm as the C3X, but still warm. With my C3X on top of CV2+ and both powered on, after 2-3 hours both units were quite hot.


Yes Arya power hungry and probably it caused an increase in amplifier heating. Top is more or less ok, right side is hotter and left side is quite hot. Want to buy power energy meter to measure how much I will pay more for electricity if I turn it on for a month.


----------



## Slim1970

raoultrifan said:


> Arya needs some more power tan most cans, due to their 90dB SPL, so I guess it is normal for C3 to get warm after 1-2 hours of power on and playback.
> I've tested C3 and it gets warm, but not so warm as the C3X, but still warm. With my C3X on top of CV2+ and both powered on, after 2-3 hours both units were quite hot.


Having both C3X and the CV2+, which sound do you prefer? I had the CV2+ but DAC in it I felt was holding it back somewhat. I liked the CV2+ a lot more with the Hugo 2 providing DAC duties. With the C3X, the DAC performance is top notch. Although I'm thinking of trying Sparkos Op amps in it.


----------



## DjBobby

VictorRad said:


> Hi folks, I recently bought Conductor 3 and I really like how it sounds and power for my Hifiman Arya. I noticed the amp produces heat to the point I want to take my hands off it. Especially on the sides and bottom. I wonder if it is normal? And I would like to have it always turned on. Have anyone measured how much kilowatt-hour energy it consumes? Thanks for your helpful answers!


Using low or high gain? 
I am using the Conductor3 on average 2-3 hours per day, didn't notice any extreme heat. Actually, on the contrary. It plays a way cooler than the Playmate or the Play. 
Hifiman Arya is not that easy to drive but still, the C3 has monster power reserve. It shouldn't have any problem driving them.


----------



## EternalChampion

Slim1970 said:


> Having both C3X and the CV2+, which sound do you prefer? I had the CV2+ but DAC in it I felt was holding it back somewhat. I liked the CV2+ a lot more with the Hugo 2 providing DAC duties. With the C3X, the DAC performance is top notch. Although I'm thinking of trying Sparkos Op amps in it.



I have the C3 Ref.  And previously owned V2+.   All you need is 2x Vivid Duals +  2x Classic Single.  That is a great op-amp combo for this particular device.  Break them in all together for some time, and you'll notice that after that checking DACs, amps and op-amps will be a waist of time and money....With this, you have a great DAC, a great amp and a juicy balanced sound signature in one box.   And you are set until the next Conductor comes out in some years from now.


----------



## Slim1970

EternalChampion said:


> I have the C3 Ref.  And previously owned V2+.   All you need is 2x Vivid Duals +  2x Classic Single.  That is a great op-amp combo for this particular device.  Break them in all together for some time, and you'll notice that after that checking DACs, amps and op-amps will be a waist of time and money....With this, you have a great DAC, a great amp and a juicy balanced sound signature in one box.   And you are set until the next Conductor comes out in some years from now.


I have a similar combo of op-amps in my Burson Swing. That combination of op-amps does sound phenomenal. The Swing is another underrated Burson product.

In comparison, the Conductor 3 series is so much more than just a DAC, like you said. It’s and all-in-one powerhouse. I was doing some listening today with my HE6se’s and Diana Phi’s on the Conductor 3X. I continue to be amazed at how effortlessly it drives both headphones. The Conductor 3/3X is a keeper of an amp. I have the stock configuration of all V6 Vivids in my C3X at the moment, but I really want to try some other op-amps in it.


----------



## Uebelkraehe

I just received a C3 to pair with my Heddphone. So far, it doesn't disappoint, gobs of power and detail. The design may be a matter of taste, but i like it and the build just oozes quality. This will be a fun weekend.


----------



## VictorRad

Has anyone noticed a difference in sound right after turning on the C3 and after 30-40 minutes when the amplifier has warmed up to normal temperature?


----------



## Slim1970

VictorRad said:


> Has anyone noticed a difference in sound right after turning on the C3 and after 30-40 minutes when the amplifier has warmed up to normal temperature?


No change that I can detect. But I would imagine that over time the sound would change due to burn-in. I wouldn't expect anything drastic, but something like the sound become richer and the highs settling down. The basic sound signature of this amp is already detailed and musical. So I would guess these characteristics to only be enhanced over time.


----------



## Uebelkraehe

I really love the sound of this AIO and its build, but the interface is just crude. It would be very much preferable if the volume for the different outputs would be decoupled and the headphone output gain choice definitely shouldn't influence preamp loudness. Also, the volume tends to jump back and forth when i try to slowly dial it up on my C3. Irritating and i'm not a fan of the choice of a rasterized volume dial in general. The much too bright blue standby LED and the stylish but functionally subpar remote (by the way, why did they have to choose the tiniest screw ever as a fastener? I am not going to buy a mini screwdiver especially for this.) don't help, either.

Add to this an inadequate manual as a bonus and i am really tempted to return the C3, despite being very happy with the core functionality. Did nobody care to critically assess the user experience before production? And why did none of the reviews i read deign to take this into consideration? A really weak showing in this regard from an otherwise superb product (i am in the end nevertheless not going to return it as i love the results i get with the Heddphone).


----------



## VictorRad

Uebelkraehe I personally do not know similar amp+dac for this price with such a great sound plus powerful enough to drive my Hifiman Arya. I also not happy with my users experience though.


----------



## Slim1970 (Apr 7, 2020)

Uebelkraehe said:


> I really love the sound of this AIO and its build, but the interface is just crude. It would be very much preferable if the volume for the different outputs would be decoupled and the headphone output gain choice definitely shouldn't influence preamp loudness. Also, the volume tends to jump back and forth when i try to slowly dial it up on my C3. Irritating and i'm not a fan of the choice of a rasterized volume dial in general. The much too bright blue standby LED and the stylish but functionally subpar remote (by the way, why did they have to choose the tiniest screw ever as a fastener? I am not going to buy a mini screwdiver especially for this.) don't help, either.
> 
> Add to this an inadequate manual as a bonus and i am really tempted to return the C3, despite being very happy with the core functionality. Did nobody care to critically assess the user experience before production? And why did none of the reviews i read deign to take this into consideration? A really weak showing in this regard from an otherwise superb product (i am in the end nevertheless not going to return it as i love the results i get with the Heddphone).


I can agree that the manual is not that informative and some of the basic features are buried in the settings. To be honest, most of those you set once and move on. The only one that I would like a button for the gain setting. Everything else I’m okay with. There is no denying this amps sound quality and performance.


----------



## Uebelkraehe

Absolutely, it's great as far as its main purpose is concerned but i can't help wondering how this aspect can be so mediocre at best considering how lovingly crafted the rest is...


----------



## Marutks

I gave up on C3 because it doesn't work well with my Verite headphones.  Too much background noise.   I am not going to buy Susvara just because of C3.


----------



## Slim1970

Marutks said:


> I gave up on C3 because it doesn't work well with my Verite headphones.  Too much background noise.   I am not going to buy Susvara just because of C3.


Really, I don't have an issue with my Auteur's and C3X. They're both 300 ohms headphones and the background should be minimal or nonexistant. What are you driving your Verite now?


----------



## Womaz

I have been looking at the Burson website and there appears to be 4 models. I understand that one is balanced and one is not, so the 3X and the 3R. What are the 3XP and 3RP models as I cant seem to fathom this out.
I am considering upgrading my Taurus Mk2 to use with my HEKs and HD800S.
The Burson is on my radar as well as the Benchmark HP4, Violectric V280, iFi PRO IDSD and maybe the GSX.


----------



## pbarach

Womaz said:


> I have been looking at the Burson website and there appears to be 4 models. I understand that one is balanced and one is not, so the 3X and the 3R. What are the 3XP and 3RP models as I cant seem to fathom this out.
> I am considering upgrading my Taurus Mk2 to use with my HEKs and HD800S.
> The Burson is on my radar as well as the Benchmark HP4, Violectric V280, iFi PRO IDSD and maybe the GSX.



The cheaper "Performance" models have one DAC chip instead of two, and it appears they put out less power. I think there are a few other differences.


----------



## Marutks

Slim1970 said:


> What are you driving your Verite now?



I have got ECP T4 tube amplifier.  It has the same engaging and musical sound as the C3.  There is absolutely no hiss.


----------



## Slim1970

Marutks said:


> I have got ECP T4 tube amplifier.  It has the same engaging and musical sound as the C3.  There is absolutely no hiss.


Thanks, Zach’s creations fair very well with tubes. Even the portable Woo Audio WA8, which I listened to the Vérité’s on, drove them awesomely.

I want to get a good tube amp to go along side my C3X. I want it to be powerful enough to drive all my cans as well. So I‘m still searching.


----------



## Marutks




----------



## Slim1970

Marutks said:


>


What cable is that?


----------



## Marutks

it is S3C cable from Norne audio


----------



## raoultrifan

Guys, in case you're not aware of the new C3 Performance, have a look here: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/burson-conductor-3-performance-conductor-3x-performance.928111/.


----------



## ladavid

Have a Conductor 3r on the way.  Will use mostly as dac and preamp into speaker based system.  Was hoping to connect my main music source a Lumin U1 mini (playing tidal and roon) to the Conductor.  Not sure about the little USB connector so might have to settle for spdif connection.  Guess I need to figure this out - Alex tells me it comes with a usb cable although have nice regular sized Curious USB cable that has been excellent for audio (are there adaptors).

my headphones are Fostex Purplehearts.  Thinking of trying something new with the Conductor - any recommendations for good fit - variety of music, budget not much more than 1K.


----------



## Womaz

Hi guys I am following both threads on the conductor series , I know one of them is balanced and one is single ended, but I have looked at the website and specs etc and I am wondering why there is a £400 price difference and is it worth this cost to go with the balanced unit.

Any guidance would be great


----------



## Slim1970

Womaz said:


> Hi guys I am following both threads on the conductor series , I know one of them is balanced and one is single ended, but I have looked at the website and specs etc and I am wondering why there is a £400 price difference and is it worth this cost to go with the balanced unit.
> 
> Any guidance would be great


The 3XR is a truly balanced design and has balanced topology from front to back, hence the price difference. For me, my preference is for having a balanced output. That’s the way I like listening to my headphones.


----------



## ladavid

My new 3R arrived today.  Took some fussing to figure out how to change the source, but once I did beautiful music right away.  Also came with no power cord for the separate power supply - grabbed one from my FUN amp and probably the same.  The sound is very nice, clean and pure right out of the box.  I also used the provided usb cable and works fine with Lumin U1 mini - haven't played much but seems to play up-sampled music just fine.  Will try headphones tonight - thinking this will be real strength but very nice as preamp and dac so far.

Both usb cable and outboard power supply seem pretty basic.  Has anyone upgraded either?  Thinking something like an Uptone LPS.  Not sure if I can find a nice usb cable with the configuration but will check around.  Also check out op amps later - have some of the Sparkos in my Fun amp.


----------



## Slim1970

ladavid said:


> My new 3R arrived today.  Took some fussing to figure out how to change the source, but once I did beautiful music right away.  Also came with no power cord for the separate power supply - grabbed one from my FUN amp and probably the same.  The sound is very nice, clean and pure right out of the box.  I also used the provided usb cable and works fine with Lumin U1 mini - haven't played much but seems to play up-sampled music just fine.  Will try headphones tonight - thinking this will be real strength but very nice as preamp and dac so far.
> 
> Both usb cable and outboard power supply seem pretty basic.  Has anyone upgraded either?  Thinking something like an Uptone LPS.  Not sure if I can find a nice usb cable with the configuration but will check around.  Also check out op amps later - have some of the Sparkos in my Fun amp.


I agree that the wall wart that comes with the 3X/3XR is pretty basic. I’m not sure what benefits you’ll get by switching it out. Burson uses their own MCPS power supplies, which are internal to the unit. But it’s worth trying if you have the Uptone LPS. Glad to read that you had luck with the USB cable. You are one of the few that has gotten it to work.

I recently upgraded the op-amps in my 3XR to the Sparkos SS3602’s and the improvements to the sound is outstanding. I’m using the SS3601’s in my Fun as well. If you want to change out all of them in the 3R you’re going to need two SS3602’s and two SS3601’s. The sonic upgrade with the Sparkos op-amps is so worth to me.


----------



## Bucketron

Slim1970 said:


> I agree that the wall wart that comes with the 3X/3XR is pretty basic. I’m not sure what benefits you’ll get by switching it out. Burson uses their own MCPS power supplies, which are internal to the unit. But it’s worth trying if you have the Uptone LPS. Glad to read that you had luck with the USB cable. You are one of the few that has gotten it to work.
> 
> I recently upgraded the op-amps in my 3XR to the Sparkos SS3602’s and the improvements to the sound is outstanding. I’m using the SS3601’s in my Fun as well. If you want to change out all of them in the 3R you’re going to need two SS3602’s and two SS3601’s. The sonic upgrade with the Sparkos op-amps is so worth to me.


Sorry,  for 3X is two SS3602's and two SS3601's or four SS3602's?


----------



## ladavid

three more comments - early days here:

1.  I don't mind the interface once I have used it a couple of times - the visual is better than I thought it would be, nice and easy to read
2.  love the feel of the volume nob but also have lots of gain - have read you can adjust gain may have to check that out
3.  headphones - easily best I have heard, using Fostex Purplehearts but yikes to dynamics

see sparkos has a sale on - may have to check them out but might not be a rush with this sounding so good so far.  

I used to have an Uptone LPS, but wasn't using anymore so sold - may have to check it out again.


----------



## Slim1970

Bucketron said:


> Sorry,  for 3X is two SS3602's and two SS3601's or four SS3602's?


Four SS3602’s. It’s fully balanced


----------



## Bucketron

Slim1970 said:


> Four SS3602’s. It’s fully balanced


Great!  Thanks for the help!  
I placed order,  ha!


----------



## Slim1970

ladavid said:


> three more comments - early days here:
> 
> 1.  I don't mind the interface once I have used it a couple of times - the visual is better than I thought it would be, nice and easy to read
> 2.  love the feel of the volume nob but also have lots of gain - have read you can adjust gain may have to check that out
> ...


The V6 Vivids are good but the Sparkos take things up a level.


----------



## Womaz

I like the option of being able to change the op amps in the future. Sometimes its just a different sound signature we need. 
So far I am loving my 3XR. I wish I could turn the display off, but so far this is my only gripe.
The soundstage and instrument separation with my HD800S is stunning, like genuinely makes me widen my eyes at times


----------



## DjBobby

Slim1970 said:


> The V6 Vivids are good but the Sparkos take things up a level.


In which direction would you describe the biggest difference as compared to Vivids?


----------



## Slim1970

DjBobby said:


> In which direction would you describe the biggest difference as compared to Vivids?


I talk about the differences here in my post in the 3XR thread.


----------



## DjBobby

Slim1970 said:


> I talk about the differences here in my post in the 3XR thread.


Thanks a lot. Sounds very interesting. I have spent some time back playing with the opamps in the Play, Playmate, Fun and the Swing, where it did quite a lot of difference. 
With the C3 I was not sure if I should start the game, because I liked the sound with the stock opamps to the point that I didn't want to change anything. I was not sure if on this level of sound quality, there will be much space left for dramatic improvement. But of course it sounds tempting


----------



## Slim1970

DjBobby said:


> Thanks a lot. Sounds very interesting. I have spent some time back playing with the opamps in the Play, Playmate, Fun and the Swing, where it did quite a lot of difference.
> With the C3 I was not sure if I should start the game, because I liked the sound with the stock opamps to the point that I didn't want to change anything. I was not sure if on this level of sound quality, there will be much space left for dramatic improvement. But of course it sounds tempting


Same here, I ended up with the SS3601’s in the Fun. The SS3602 in the Bang and the dual V6 Classics and V6 Vivid singles in the Swing. The 3X/3XR with the V6 Vivids sounds very good indeed. But with the SS3602’s installed, makes it sound even more endgame. I only expect the sound to get better with burn-in.


----------



## EternalChampion

Slim1970 said:


> I talk about the differences here in my post in the 3XR thread.



How about their brightness compared to the Vivid?  They are said to be very bright and sometimes even fatiguing with bright headphones.

Also,  regarding the instrument/vocal placement, do you find them to bring the music contents closer to you or push them back further away?

I detest distant audio!


----------



## Slim1970

They are not bright sounding at all on my 3XR. The treble sounds much like the V6 Vivids but with faster transients. Cymbals sound crisp with a more focused attack. Instrument placement seems spot on. Vocals don’t sound to forward or pushed back. They are just more expressive.

I think recessed mids are more of the headphones tuning. But some amps do put and emphasis on certain frequencies. Lucky for us, Burson prefers to focus on musicality, dynamics, and detail. Where the midrange is at the heart of music. The midrange could be enhanced even more if you swap the V6 Vivids with the V6 Classics. Then you’ll get tube like warmth to your sound.


----------



## drc73rp (Apr 25, 2020)

So this finally arrived after some maneuvering with the lockdown and some issues with logistics. Many thanks to Alex of Burson for accomodating my questions about the amp. This is a big jump for me coming from separates (Mytek Liberty + Beta22), I am aware of the risks and the lack of flexibility with integrateds but was very curious about the new approach that Burson did with this version of the Conductor.

Only the second day so hopefully there's some improvement still from burn in, meanwhile here are my initial findings:

1. It's not always what I do but reading the manual (pdf from Burson website) helped simplify initial setup, including installing the Windows USB drivers first, selecting the correct settings in Windows and managing through the amp's front panel UI.
2. Despite not being in the list of compatible devices, Roon recognized the Burson USB Audio device and MQA playback works (front panel displays correct sampling rate).
3. The amp responds well to USB cables and conditioning/regeneration. In my setup, the sound improved changing from Cardas Clear to DH Labs Silversonic USB cable, and then some more from iFi USB purifier 3 to Uptone Regen with LPS. This tells me my PC is really a bad source as well. I have a Lavricable dual silver USB cable coming, hopefully this improves further on the DH Labs. Also, that USB C input is just inconvenient and necessitates the use of multiple connectors.
4. Still curious if the SMPS can be improved upon as everything else seems to take this amp to yet another level, maybe an iFi DC purifier initially?

As it is now I can say the setup has improved on the sound of the C3R significantly. I'll try to work on the power connection as the amp continues with burn in, if there is even any improvement to be gained there. Too early to say if this is better than my other setup, or just different.


----------



## belgar

Looks great! Jealous here. I understand there is a waiting list and my Reference X has not arrived yet...


----------



## EternalChampion

I wonder what digital filter is everyone using on this device.  I always find myself switching between MP_FAST and LP_FAST depending on the tracks as I like their soft drum presentation and the overall smoother signature.  Default AP_FAST is the "audiophile" setting but that's just too much of aggression for my ears at sometimes.  Too bad moving away from this I lose the very last sub-bass layer available.

Definitely not the same as changing the op-amps yet the surgical intervention of the filters makes the difference.


----------



## DjBobby

EternalChampion said:


> I wonder what digital filter is everyone using on this device.  I always find myself switching between MP_FAST and LP_FAST depending on the tracks as I like their soft drum presentation and the overall smoother signature.  Default AP_FAST is the "audiophile" setting but that's just too much of aggression for my ears at sometimes.  Too bad moving away from this I lose the very last sub-bass layer available.
> 
> Definitely not the same as changing the op-amps yet the surgical intervention of the filters makes the difference.


I wouldn't call Apodizing Fast filter "audiophile", rather a "compromise". It is jack of all trades, master of none. AP FAST adds some distortion and phase shift, making the instruments changing the timbre. 

AP FAST filter reduces somewhat the pre-ringing, but not as much as the Minimum Phase Fast. It has more phase linearity than the MP FAST but less than the Linear Phase Fast, because it introduces phase shifting in the higher frequency range, where the ear is supposed to be less sensitive, at least hypothetically.  The AP FAST has definitely more phase "errors" than the LP FAST filter. 

LP FAST has perfect linearity which is crucial for the proper imaging and instruments localization, especially when listening through the loudspeakers. On the other side it has pre- and post ringing which could add some glare when listening through the headphones, close to the eardrum. 

MP FAST trades pre-ringing with longer post-ringing and phase shift. The note attacks sound cleaner and less smeared, there is minimum of reverberation which makes the sound less dry. On the other side, there is a phase shift, the lower frequencies rich the ear earlier than the higher. It makes the sound subjectively warmer, fuller and richer, but also less precise for the instrument localization because the brain is confused that not all frequencies reach the ear at the same time. 

Generally using the C3 as a dac with a speakers, the LP FAST gives due to the perfect phase linearity best imaging and instrument placement. 
Using the C3 as headphone amp, I would try the MP FAST because it sounds warmer and fuller. 

Personally, when listening classical, especially symphonic, I am using the LP FAST, because the preference is on imaging and instrument localization in space.
When listening to jazz and pop, I always switch to MP FAST, because it sounds less fatiguing and adds some analog warmth.


----------



## EternalChampion

Well, I judge everything through the headphone output, no speakers around for the time being.  
You have nicely put out what I hear using the sophisticated technical approach   MP_FAST, because of that smooth analogue lightweight feel to it and the great instrument imaging through the headphones takes up most of the time.  But I like the extra low bass heft without compromising much using the LP_FAST too.

I believe they chose AP_FAST to be the default because of its ability to stretch the soundstage a bit more compared to the others while adding a touch of immediacy to the sound.  Also objectively speaking, it can reach lower in the sub-bass, which is something I never seem to get enough of for enjoyment.  You are correct though, it doesn't image that well and distorts a bit also, add to this the aggression and there you have it why I put "audiophile" in quotes.


----------



## JWahl

Uebelkraehe said:


> I really love the sound of this AIO and its build, but the interface is just crude. It would be very much preferable if the volume for the different outputs would be decoupled and the headphone output gain choice definitely shouldn't influence preamp loudness. Also, the volume tends to jump back and forth when i try to slowly dial it up on my C3. Irritating and i'm not a fan of the choice of a rasterized volume dial in general. The much too bright blue standby LED and the stylish but functionally subpar remote (by the way, why did they have to choose the tiniest screw ever as a fastener? I am not going to buy a mini screwdiver especially for this.) don't help, either.
> 
> Add to this an inadequate manual as a bonus and i am really tempted to return the C3, despite being very happy with the core functionality. Did nobody care to critically assess the user experience before production? And why did none of the reviews i read deign to take this into consideration? A really weak showing in this regard from an otherwise superb product (i am in the end nevertheless not going to return it as i love the results i get with the Heddphone).



It's unfortunate to see this volume-control problem also exists in the higher end models.  I've been evaluating the Burson Playmate for a review and have been impressed with it's sound for the price, but the volume control doesn't know which way it wants to go about 30% of the time when moving slow.  It's really annoying and negatively impacts the user experience.  In contrast, the RME ADI-2 DAC uses a similar notched rotary encoder for volume but the notches always match precisely with volume steps with no errors.  The ramp up for quick changes also feels natural.  The Burson's volume control is the only wart on an otherwise fantastic product.


----------



## drc73rp

Update on my C3R, after all USB signal and power combinations, I've found that the best connection is USB straight into the Conductor, no iFi Purifier 3, no Uptone Regen. The signal is just surprisingly clean and the music is just more complete, no harshness in the highs, and the bass is fuller and more impactful. In terms of power, the amp is the same if not better without any voltage regulator, surge protection or line conditioning. Granted I isolated the outlet I plugged it into from my PC, fan or any other devices most notably phone chargers and other SMPS (this I think matters more). So there, no additional expenses to make it sound good, it just does. Go figure.


----------



## belgar

Now that I'm fully setup and familiar with the C3R, I'd like to hook up a tube amp. I understand that I cannot use just any XLR to RCA adaptors but rather a transformer type of interface, followed by a picture of Jensen's PC-2XR https://www.jensen-transformers.com/product/pc-2xr/ . At $300 MSR not pocket change. 

Any helpful experiences and tips here on this or alternatives?


----------



## GoodEnoughGear

belgar said:


> Now that I'm fully setup and familiar with the C3R, I'd like to hook up a tube amp. I understand that I cannot use just any XLR to RCA adaptors but rather a transformer type of interface, followed by a picture of Jensen's PC-2XR https://www.jensen-transformers.com/product/pc-2xr/ . At $300 MSR not pocket change.
> 
> Any helpful experiences and tips here on this or alternatives?


Conductor 3R is single-ended, no? Is the amp XLR/Balanced in only? Or are you referring to the 3XR?


----------



## belgar

GoodEnoughGear said:


> Conductor 3R is single-ended, no? Is the amp XLR/Balanced in only? Or are you referring to the 3XR?



My bad, yes, I'm talking about the the 3XR, of course (see page three of the manual Burson Conductor 3X References User Manual V1.1.pdf).


----------



## GoodEnoughGear

belgar said:


> My bad, yes, I'm talking about the the 3XR, of course (see page three of the manual Burson Conductor 3X References User Manual V1.1.pdf).


Yep you're going to need a transformer like the Jensen that can pad down the output. I don't see a spec for the output voltage on the line outs, but at worst if that's even too hot for the amp you can attenuate on the variable output.


----------



## drc73rp (May 25, 2020)

Two months on, here's how I've come to know the C3R:

Clean power is important, as with any equipment, but more so as this has digital/front end built in and is largely controlling the amp sound (directly controlling attenuation);
USB receiver is quite good and direct connection without the purifiers and regenerators is optimal. Silver USB cable (Lavricable) more easily distinguishes itself from copper and silver plated copper cables with this DAC-amp and is the best I've used so far with it;
C3R DAC is slightly better than my Liberty DAC in terms of transparency and detail, but the Mytek is more capable in dealing with MQA, DSD and has better connectivity with Roon;
As with power, source quality improves its sound. Using a network streamer like the SOTM SMS200 is better than directly plugging into my PC - quieter, cleaner sound.
So far the only big issue is its Roon compatibility which I think needs to be improved. DSD playback is not the best in my case, while PCM is quite stellar. Also connectivity with SOTM SMS200 is not as automatic as with the Liberty.  The USB Type C input is limiting in terms of usb cable choices unless a connector or a series of them is used to connect.
In my setup, I've placed the C3R on Vibracones not for isolation (which I hope does a bit too) but more to let the heat dissipate better as the amp gets a bit warm especially underneath and I don't want to position it vertically. The remote is quite fancy but I've never had to use it yet. The stock SMPS looks like it is really meant to be hidden away, I was able to use a C17 adaptor and attach a nice power cable to it, I doubt it had any effect except make me feel a little bit better about it. Looking forward to driver updates sometime soon from Burson for DSD and Roon.


----------



## ladavid

great note AnaK.  Curious about what power supply you are using - is it just stock into some kind of power conditioner or are you using an upgraded power supply.  Am exploring an improved USB cable and after that thinking of an Uptone LPS.  

But would it make a difference and if it does then what kind of improvement over the stock.  Not sure if any others have tried this because Burson talks quite a bit about how great their Max Power supply is in this unit.


----------



## drc73rp

ladavid said:


> great note AnaK.  Curious about what power supply you are using - is it just stock into some kind of power conditioner or are you using an upgraded power supply.  Am exploring an improved USB cable and after that thinking of an Uptone LPS.
> 
> But would it make a difference and if it does then what kind of improvement over the stock.  Not sure if any others have tried this because Burson talks quite a bit about how great their Max Power supply is in this unit.



Using the stock SMPS with an Acoustic Zen El Nino power cord straight into the wall outlet. I'm tempted to say there is some effect to it but I never got to swap the stock cord back to be sure. I was thinking of ordering a Teddy Pardo or a Farad Super 3 LPS, but Burson discourages it due to their MPS being designed to be quiet with SMPS. Might still try a Li-Ion battery supply instead though just to see how far the performance of the amp goes. Try isolating the line where you plug in from other wall warts and household appliances or maybe a line conditioner if you can't. Also I think the USB cable swapping and upgrading works best when the power and source are both taken care of first.


----------



## DjBobby

Went through some Decca recordings of the Richard Strauss operas, which I usually avoid listening through the headphones. Too much spatial information and stage movements for in-head listening. The opera sounds often too congested and lifeless through the headphones. 
Now for the first time, I have to revise my opinion. I have managed to listen and enjoy the entire operas through the Conductor 3, paired with either the HD650 or the T90. Tons of spatial information, incredible instrument localisation and holographic sound stage. Even some older, digitally mastered analogue recordings, sound incredibly vivid and life-like.


----------



## Swisshead (Jun 3, 2020)

I am interested in the C3XP. For me the small one would be completely sufficient in terms of performance. Is it worth the extra charge for the XR?

As I have seen, the DAC is identical, only the amplifier is stronger and is 2-channel, the P only 1-channel.

Has anyone heard and compared both? For me it would replace the iFi micro iDSD. Is it worth the upgrade here? I don't really need Bluetooth because it's permanently connected to the MacBook Pro 16.

I would be interested in comparing the iFi and the C3 Reference.

The reason for switching from iFi to Burson would be the XLR connector. Unfortunately the iFi does not have this. In terms of performance, the iFi is good enough; the question is whether you can hear a difference in sound.

Thank you in advance for a short report!


----------



## kebcy

DjBobby 

Hello!

First of all, pardon for my lack of English!

Cause of the 20% discount I already sent a letter to Alex that I would love to buy the Conductor 3 REF with V6 Vivids. I do have a Swing/FUN combo with V6 Vivids. I saw your detailed review about the Conductor 3 Ref and I saw you tested the Conductor 3 REF with the Beyerdynamic T1 2nd gen as I remember. My questions would be the following.

- It really makes a big difference in soundstage - depth, and overally in sound changing from Swing/FUN to the Conductor 3 REF?
- If there is a big difference in soundstage - depth, how should I imagine it? The Vocals and the drums, feels much more "alive" and "crisp" and the bass is punchier, tho a bit more "airy" the overall sound?
- The T1 2nd gen have similar sound quality like the Amiron Home. I mostly listen Rock, Ambient, some NewRetroWave stuff (so electronic basically) what do you think, how it gonna perform? Should I except a big impact on sound?
- You did not mentioned anything about games, but well.. Anyone tried out this DAC/AMP under games? How it performs?
- Did you used any kind of FIR filter, or tweaks for your listenings? I saw you fiddled with the High-Low gains. I guess I do have to use the "High" gain for the Amiron, right?
- You only tested the Conductor 3 REF under MAC, or maybe under Windows as well? If no, someone can share his/her opinions about drivers? I mean, it's a simple plug "n" play and ready to go?

Pardon for the lot of question, I hope I am not driving you crazy, just I became pretty surprised, and also happy that someone have and had a similar build like me, and he (you) wrote a review about, how the Conductor 3 REF outperform the Swing/FUN combo..

Cheers ~
kebcy


----------



## DjBobby (Jul 1, 2020)

kebcy said:


> DjBobby
> 
> Hello!
> 
> ...


Hi Kebcy

I am at the moment away from home and away from my gear, so I can try to answer your questions based on my aural memory.

i have tried all possible combinations of Vivids and Classics both on my Swing ans the Fun and settled at the end for the „Everest“ combo in the Swing and all Classics in the Fun. The Everest combo in the Swing has in the IV the V6 Classics and in the LPF/Gain there are SS V6 Vivids.
The Conductor has by default all Vivids.
The Conductor is definitely more spacious and more airy. The soundstage is bigger. I wouldnˋt say it is punchier and crisper but there is more body and the “muscles“ to the sound. The Conductor sounds also more relaxed and less fatiguing in the treble.
Unfortunately I canˋt tell how it is for gaming, as I am not using it for the gaming purpose, but I can imagine that the Conductor is truly a gaming beast. It has explosive dynamics and powerful outbursts of sound peaks.
I have extensively tested all digital filters and could elaborate quite long about that. Generally I can say, the default AP fast is the allrounder which will suit most of the listeners. For the classical I reccomend the LP fast and for the Rock and electronic the MP fast. The low/high gain is done in the digital domain, on the Sabre chip itself, since the noise level stays absolutely the same in both settings. All Sennheisers prefer low gain, all Beyerdynamics prefer high gain.
I have tried only with Macs which is plug and play. For the Windows you will need to install the drivers.

It is difficult to say to what degree is the Conductor better than the Swing/Fun combo. What I can tell you is, that since I got the Conductor, I havenˋt come back to the Swing/Fun combo not a single time.
I hope this helps a little.


----------



## kebcy

DjBobby said:


> Hi Kebcy
> 
> I am at the moment away from home and away from my gear, so I can try to answer your questions based on my aural memory.
> 
> ...



Hello DjBobby!

Thank you the detailed answer, of course it helps a lot! I already talked with Alex, and my Conductor 3REF is already on the way towards me (Hungary).

So basically it's like a SWING/Fun with much more power, and muscle, right?

The Dual ESS9038 DAC chip improves the overall sound quality, or this serves other purposes, like for streaming or dual music listening in two totally different headphones? For your listening sessions, you used FooBar, right? I do have some .mkv files, and .aac as well, but actually I am not sure if I am better with the simple VLC or with the FooBar..

I am sure, I am not gonna change back to the "old" SWING/Fun combo!


----------



## DjBobby

kebcy said:


> Hello DjBobby!
> 
> Thank you the detailed answer, of course it helps a lot! I already talked with Alex, and my Conductor 3REF is already on the way towards me (Hungary).
> 
> ...


Congratulations Kebcy, I hope you will enjoy the Conductor 3REF!

Yes, it could be said like that that the Conductor 3 is the Swing/Fun on steroids. 
Using dual ESS9038 chip improves the overall sound quality, nothing to do with the dual music streaming. Using only one digital chip in stereo mode gives you the SNR of -129db. When using dual chips, each one is configured to work in the mono mode, improving the SNR to impressive -140db. It is also better for the crosstalk, as each chip takes care about only one separate channel. 
You can of course use two different headphones plugged in at the same time, but listening to the same music. It is very handy if you want to compare the headphones, without loosing time for unplugging and plugging in.

I am on macOS, using the Audirvana, so no idea about the Foobar. Probably other HeadFiers can give you more information about best software for the Windows machines.

Wishing you that your Conductor arrives as soon as possible, I remember how impatient I was, awaiting for the package to arrive .


----------



## Swisshead

I get my Burson 3XP on next Monday and will use it on my 2nd workstation with a MacBook Pro 16.

So here's a question, do you use the standard USB cable or did you buy a better one? Via USB-C? 

I read somewhere that the standard one is no good and you should get a better one. I'm not a believer in cables at all, but I think an average one should be enough.

I'm really looking forward to it and I'm curious how it sounds. Since it is my 2nd workstation, I didn't want to use the Reverences, so the smaller one should be enough. Important was with XLR connection. I don't need it as a DAC converter to another amplifier, really only solo. The Ref. was also clearly too big for me, because it needs half the desk. I am extremely curious how it sounds like! I hope really good. Will replace my iFi micro iDSD BL!


----------



## Womaz

Swisshead said:


> I get my Burson 3XP on next Monday and will use it on my 2nd workstation with a MacBook Pro 16.
> 
> So here's a question, do you use the standard USB cable or did you buy a better one? Via USB-C?
> 
> ...



The original USB cable did not work for me so I bought another one. If you look back at the earlier messages on here there are a lot of reports of the original cable not working


----------



## DjBobby (Jul 3, 2020)

Swisshead said:


> I get my Burson 3XP on next Monday and will use it on my 2nd workstation with a MacBook Pro 16.
> 
> So here's a question, do you use the standard USB cable or did you buy a better one? Via USB-C?
> 
> ...


I am using the standard usb-c to usb-a cable which came included. No need IMO to go for more expensive cables, as it already sounds great. I am also using a powered USB hub between the C3 and the MacBook Pro. Maybe that's why I never experienced any problems with the cable.


----------



## Swisshead

Thank you very much for the answer. Yes will also go through a hub. Give it a try, or I'll have to get another one.


----------



## EternalChampion

kebcy said:


> I am sure, I am not gonna change back to the "old" SWING/Fun combo!



No way.   Btw, default 3 Ref with 4 Vivid is a big jump ahead of its predecessor V2+ sound-wise.  It makes the promised next step in overall quality (clarity, tempo) but also improves the contact with the music (a really nice mixture of Sabre and BurrBrown).  The definition of an upgrade. 

A while ago I contacted the guys at BA and told them that I find the 2x Vivid Dual + 2x Classic Single combo to be the best with the least compromises and coincidentally they replied saying that they are using the exact same combo as their test setup!


----------



## kebcy (Jul 3, 2020)

Swisshead said:


> I read somewhere that the standard one is no good and you should get a better one. I'm not a believer in cables at all, but I think an average one should be enough




I am kinda interested in this as well. Actually how can the USB cable affect the overall sound quality? This is not a placebo effect? As I know the data is a bunch of 0-1 and there is no way to improve the data "quality" with the better cable quality.

Your device coming from Hong-Kong as well, with Express Delivery?


----------



## Bucketron

It's just the stock usb cable doesn't work,  not it sounds bad.  There is no sound different between usb cables.


----------



## Swisshead

[QUOTE = "kebcy, post: 15717456, member: 493313"]
Das interessiert mich auch irgendwie. Wie kann das USB-Kabel die Klangqualität insgesamt beeinflussen? Dies ist kein Placebo-Effekt? Wie ich weiß, sind die Daten ein Haufen von 0-1 und es gibt keine Möglichkeit, die "Datenqualität" der Daten mit der besseren Kabelqualität zu verbessern.

Ihr Gerät kommt auch aus Hongkong mit Expressversand?
[/ZITAT]

Yes is interesting, abandoned in Hong Kong by Express Delivery, currently in Leipzig and should be here in Switzerland on Monday. I wonder if that will work!


----------



## kebcy

Bucketron said:


> It's just the stock usb cable doesn't work,  not it sounds bad.  There is no sound different between usb cables.



What you mean the stock usb cable does not work? Tho I started to look around on the Hungarian market, but I don't find anything good which would replace the stock.. I found one for 430$ but I do not think, this would gave me a better listening experience.




Swisshead said:


> [QUOTE = "kebcy, post: 15717456, member: 493313"]
> Das interessiert mich auch irgendwie. Wie kann das USB-Kabel die Klangqualität insgesamt beeinflussen? Dies ist kein Placebo-Effekt? Wie ich weiß, sind die Daten ein Haufen von 0-1 und es gibt keine Möglichkeit, die "Datenqualität" der Daten mit der besseren Kabelqualität zu verbessern.
> 
> Ihr Gerät kommt auch aus Hongkong mit Expressversand?
> ...




Mine is in Hong Kong as well, tho the estimated Delivery says i can have it by Tuesday end of the day.. luckily I asked them to bring the package to the University where I work.. so Tuesday will be a long day for me haha!


----------



## dj1978

Will the Burson C3R work properly with 2xSparkos SS3602 dual + 2x Vivid Dual (stock)?
Where are the op-amps for the DAC section located?


----------



## Slim1970

dj1978 said:


> Will the Burson C3R work properly with 2xSparkos SS3602 dual + 2x Vivid Dual (stock)?
> Where are the op-amps for the DAC section located?


Yes, as long as they are dual op-amps you should be okay running a mixture of parts.


----------



## kebcy

If (for some unknown reason) my Conductor 3REF would overheat and simply the music would stop (under Windows) cause of the too much heat, I can "safely" turn it off and back on again, like with my Swing/Fun combo?

I don't know why but this happens with me a lot in the Summer, that I have to turn off my Swing for a moment or two, then turn it back on again, to have "sound" again.
Anyone experienced this kind of behaviour with his Burson device? I don't know if it's a faulty or no.. I never had this problem with my Play.


----------



## Bucketron

kebcy said:


> If (for some unknown reason) my Conductor 3REF would overheat and simply the music would stop (under Windows) cause of the too much heat, I can "safely" turn it off and back on again, like with my Swing/Fun combo?
> 
> I don't know why but this happens with me a lot in the Summer, that I have to turn off my Swing for a moment or two, then turn it back on again, to have "sound" again.
> Anyone experienced this kind of behaviour with his Burson device? I don't know if it's a faulty or no.. I never had this problem with my Play.


Never happened on my C3X


----------



## DjBobby

kebcy said:


> If (for some unknown reason) my Conductor 3REF would overheat and simply the music would stop (under Windows) cause of the too much heat, I can "safely" turn it off and back on again, like with my Swing/Fun combo?
> 
> I don't know why but this happens with me a lot in the Summer, that I have to turn off my Swing for a moment or two, then turn it back on again, to have "sound" again.
> Anyone experienced this kind of behaviour with his Burson device? I don't know if it's a faulty or no.. I never had this problem with my Play.


Never happened to mine C3. Running for 5-6 hours without switching off.


----------



## kebcy

Finally, I got it. 

My very first experience with it, compared to the previous Swing/Fun combo is that I got power, volume, and well, hard to describe and write around it but feels like my headphone is bigger, and I am pointing to the sound stage. It's wider, deeper, and feels like I am in a room with the music alone, without any interference. I listened some vocal oriented song, and same expression. It feels like the vocalist standing literally in front of me, and singing just only for me.

Right now I am using it under Windows 10 Build 1909, with Volume 100%, everything is turned off, Burson Conductor Runs on 50% Volume, and the music around 50-80% and baby, this got a lot of power. My Beyerdynamic Amiron home feels totally different.
The music feels much more crisp, and huh, hard to say it. Like the songs received some kind of "life", or I don't know.

Is there any way to fine tune it?


----------



## Viszla

EternalChampion said:


> I have the C3 Ref.  And previously owned V2+.   All you need is 2x Vivid Duals +  2x Classic Single.  That is a great op-amp combo for this particular device.  Break them in all together for some time, and you'll notice that after that checking DACs, amps and op-amps will be a waist of time and money....With this, you have a great DAC, a great amp and a juicy balanced sound signature in one box.   And you are set until the next Conductor comes out in some years from now.


Maybe this is a silly question:  "All you need is 2x Vivid Duals + 2x Classic Single" is it for conductor V2+?.


----------



## EternalChampion

Viszla said:


> Maybe this is a silly question:  "All you need is 2x Vivid Duals + 2x Classic Single" is it for conductor V2+?.


No.  V2+ doesn't give you op-amp options.


----------



## Swisshead

Quick question. Want to buy me a microphone for the Burson. So I can talk on headphones.

Does anybody know what a 3.5 millimeter jack is? I didn't think there was so much choice. Mono stereo digital... yeah, tough. Does anybody know? Thank you very much.


----------



## DjBobby

Swisshead said:


> Quick question. Want to buy me a microphone for the Burson. So I can talk on headphones.
> 
> Does anybody know what a 3.5 millimeter jack is? I didn't think there was so much choice. Mono stereo digital... yeah, tough. Does anybody know? Thank you very much.


The microphone input is mono, you you will need a mic with a 3.5mm mono jack.


----------



## drc73rp

As good as the built-in DAC of the Conductor is, and as transparent as it sounds while feeding the amp section directly, I've found that hooking up the Holo Spring2 DAC to one of it's RCA inputs takes the performance level of this amp to yet another level. I've always feared the DAC controlled volume attenuation of the C3R would always get in the way of the Spring2 R2R sound, but right now this is probably the closest I've gotten to what this excellent DAC really sounds like. There's just more sense of space, a more natural timbre and the dynamics are really impressive.


----------



## DjBobby

AnaKinDV8 said:


> As good as the built-in DAC of the Conductor is, and as transparent as it sounds while feeding the amp section directly, I've found that hooking up the Holo Spring2 DAC to one of it's RCA inputs takes the performance level of this amp to yet another level. I've always feared the DAC controlled volume attenuation of the C3R would always get in the way of the Spring2 R2R sound, but right now this is probably the closest I've gotten to what this excellent DAC really sounds like. There's just more sense of space, a more natural timbre and the dynamics are really impressive.


Hmmm...very interesting. The C3 uses 32 bit digital volume control embedded in the ESS chip. As far as I understand it, the analogue inputs get converted to digital.


----------



## drc73rp

DjBobby said:


> Hmmm...very interesting. The C3 uses 32 bit digital volume control embedded in the ESS chip. As far as I understand it, the analogue inputs get converted to digital.


I realize this and while not the best scenario for the Spring2, still a better scenario for the C3R as an amp than with its built-in DAC.


----------



## Swisshead

Little question, is there actually something like software updates for the amplifier at Burson? There is nothing on the homepage. At ADI they come regularly, hence my question.


----------



## Onik

Does the OP AMP ROLLING has any effects on the output when I use the conducter C3(ref) as a DAC/Preamp for my Tube amplifier like WOO AUDIO WA2??


----------



## Vaiet

Onik said:


> Does the OP AMP ROLLING has any effects on the output when I use the conducter C3(ref) as a DAC/Preamp for my Tube amplifier like WOO AUDIO WA2??


The OP-Amps only affect the amp section. If it works as a DAC for your AMP, then the op-amp rolling shouldn't have any effect on the sound sig.


----------



## Onik

Vaiet said:


> The OP-Amps only affect the amp section. If it works as a DAC for your AMP, then the op-amp rolling shouldn't have any effect on the sound sig.



This the response from Burson Audio about its DAC function.

Hi Mahidi,

Thank you for your email and your interest in our Conductor 3 Reference.

Yes, all four opamps affect the sound of its DAC output.   Two of them are in the I/V stage and two of them are in the L/P stage.  Fortunately, the Conductor 3 Reference comes with our V6 Vivid opamps installed.  The Vivid is our reference opamp and it is widely regarded as the best in the world adopted by recording studios everywhere.

As you can see from this new review below, the performance of the C3-Ref as a DAC is rock solid and the reviewer ended up buying the C3-Reference from us just for its DAC function. : ) A big reason for this level of performance is due to our Vivid opamps.



Best regards,

Alex


----------



## Viszla

EternalChampion said:


> No.  V2+ doesn't give you op-amp options.


 thanks


----------



## ahmedie

Vaiet said:


> The OP-Amps only affect the amp section. If it works as a DAC for your AMP, then the op-amp rolling shouldn't have any effect on the sound sig.


Actually I contacted burson audio and they said opamp also effects DAC and preamp output ... As it should be easy, can any owner of this dac can confirm this ?....


----------



## Bucketron

ahmedie said:


> Actually I contacted burson audio and they said opamp also effects DAC and preamp output ... As it should be easy, can any owner of this dac can confirm this ?....


I switched all 4 to sparkoslabs, pretty sure opamps also affect the DAC as the performance improved a lot.


----------



## Uebelkraehe

I am still very sceptical that the Sparkos are obejctively better and not just a different (subtly brighter) flavor...


----------



## E8ArmyDiver

Well head-fiers I am joining the Elite.Just emailed my dealer about returning the Conductor 3Performance & upgrading to the C3Reference!I was looking at the keeping the Performance & getting Meze Empies but I have ALWAYS wanted to try Sennheiser HD800S & they are half the price of the Meze so I'll go with a new pair of HD800S & upgrade the amp/dac to the Conductor 3 Reference.A WIN WIN I DO BELIEVE!!!


----------



## EternalChampion

E8ArmyDiver said:


> Well head-fiers I am joining the Elite.Just emailed my dealer about returning the Conductor 3Performance & upgrading to the C3Reference!I



And for the cherry on the cake switch the two single Vivid out for two Classic for more coherent and addictive sound


----------



## DjBobby

EternalChampion said:


> And for the cherry on the cake switch the two single Vivid out for two Classic for more coherent and addictive sound


Sounds interesting. Could you elaborate more about your experience switching for the Classics?


----------



## EternalChampion

DjBobby said:


> Sounds interesting. Could you elaborate more about your experience switching for the Classics?



Switching between 4x Vivid and 4x Classic it becomes so obvious why the Vivid is the superior op-amp and why Burson decided to put those instead of the Classic inside the C3 Ref.  They went full Vivid for the extra clarity, extension and attack despite the compromises introduced from the Classic absence. The best combo with the minimum compromises I could get was the 2x Vivid dual + 2x Classic single.  This combo is so great as it takes almost nothing away from the Vivid qualities yet the experience improves.

Most people playing around with the op-amps on the C3 Ref will agree with me I think.

The Classic will give you a bit closer look into the music (just a tiny bit) and also thicker, more pleasant and intimate vocals, will also calm down a bit the occasional excessively powerful drum strikes however by going the full Classic configuration on the Conductor will certainly kill sub-bass extension, take a big chunk away from soundstage clarity, accuracy and also from the attack at higher frequencies.  I did not like it at all...

The op-amp combo that I mentioned above creates a very balanced, unified audio presentation with very little to ask for.


----------



## Onik (Sep 1, 2020)

Did anyone notice slight hiss from their Headphones like HD650/BEYERDYNAMIC T1 from Conductor 3 Ref Headphones out while no inputs/nothing is playing?

I can hear slight hiss on my C3 Ref even on low gain mode when using HD650(300ohm) headphones.


----------



## DjBobby

Onik said:


> Did anyone notice slight hiss from their Headphones like HD650/BEYERDYNAMIC T1 from Conductor 3 Ref Headphones out while no inputs/nothing is playing?
> 
> I can hear slight hiss on my C3 Ref even on low gain mode when using HD650(300ohm) headphones.


Yes, the hiss was previously discussed and mentioned, but mostly in connection with low impedance/high sensitivity headphones.


----------



## maszynista1987

EternalChampion said:


> Most people playing around with the op-amps on the C3 Ref will agree with me I think.



I also liked the mixed combination very much, the diameter is slightly closer, a nice option


----------



## EternalChampion

maszynista1987 said:


> I also liked the mixed combination very much, the diameter is slightly closer, a nice option



In order to enhance the effect of this combo even more, MP_SLOW does exactly that intensifying that direct, 3D contact with the music so to speak, in case you haven't tried the filter yet.    

I like how the digital filters behave almost like op-amp variations available to choose from.   The complete package moving from V2+....that's how you submit your homework!


----------



## Onik

DjBobby said:


> Yes, the hiss was previously discussed and mentioned, but mostly in connection with low impedance/high sensitivity headphones.



The HD650 is a high impedance headphones, I found the PLAYMate is pitch Black when nothing is playing, i can feel the hiss when I'm in really quite room but sometimes It feels pitch black.

It's not really bothering me but I wish it was totally silent when C3 is powered on and no inputs given. 

What's the best high impedance to use for C3 for Classical music?


----------



## DjBobby

Onik said:


> What's the best high impedance to use for C3 for Classical music?


That is highly depending on personal teste. While the HD650 or Sennheiser in general make top pairing with the C3, for classical might be too laid back and dark. 
Although not strictly high impedance, the AKG K701/702 are only like 60ohm headphones, but are notoriously difficult to drive. They are far more transparent for Classical and have bigger "symphonic" soundstage, when paired with the C3.


----------



## pbarach

Onik said:


> What's the best high impedance to use for C3 for Classical music?



You don't need a HIGH impedance headphone; you just need one that isn't an ultra-sensitive in-ear monitor that will have an audible hiss when there is no music playing. So a headphone that isn't ultra sensitive will work fine. I don't have a conductor, but I enjoy the quality of sound in classical music with Sennheiser HD-600 (which are high impedance--300 ohms) and Focal Clears (55 ohms and easy to drive). I also have a set of AKG K702 headphones, which I find aren't that difficult to drive but do require an amp--I find that they lack the rich sound I want in classical music, although they do offer a more open soundstage than either of the headphones I've already mentioned.


----------



## Onik

I found the noise floor of C3 is less noticeable with ATH-R70X(470ohm) and I love it more than HD650 for everything except for Classical music, but still I find the HD650 too dark sounding for classical so I decided to buy HD800s soon(even though I am poor).


----------



## Okonkwo

Hello,
I'd like to chime in with some quick initial impressions. Just received my Conductor 3 about 5 days ago.
     Setup:  Sennheiser HD 650's (stock), sourced by a Windows 10 desktop PC running Foobar with FLAC rip files

* Pros:
     As a previous owner of the original HA-160D, as well as a CV2+, I can honestly say the C3R is a significant improvement over both.
I wasn't expecting to be that impressed, in fact I was just hoping it would be incrementally better than the somewhat thin sounding CV2+.
Well, I was wrong.  The C3R blows the doors off its predecessors.  It has a tremendous sense of clarity that's backed by what I can only describe as limitless power.
It's like the HA-160D, only exponentially better.  In terms of clarity, it _really_ shines when listening to a Mobile Fidelity CD rip - fresh details emerge all over the place, but it also sounds coherent and natural at the same time.  In terms of power, the power is crazy.  Recordings with a wide dynamic range can literally take your head off.  You can go from a quiet passage to startlingly loud instantly - like a lightening strike.  It takes some getting used to.  Bottom end is solid with plenty of slam.  To sum it up, the C3R is an impressive piece of gear.

* Cons
     For some strange reason Burson decided to cut corners with the volume control.  Yes, it has a fancy OLED screen with a PGA2310 digital processor.
And, yes, it has a fancy CNC precision knurled knob.   Unfortunately, the one part that really matters - the rotary encoder behind the knob, is a piece of junk.
I've found that when advancing the knob click by click, it will sometimes stutter - and even go backwards (20, 21, 22, 23, 23, 22, 24, 25...).
The knob itself probably costs 20 dollars, while the encoder, with its wobbly plastic shaft, probably costs 29 cents.
Because of this, I've resorted to using the mini remote to control the volume.

Quick sidebar - there is no noise floor at all, at least on my unit.  I can pause play and turn the volume up to 99 - and it's dead quiet.


----------



## pbarach

I was considering this equipment, but the various reports of problems with the volume control and the USB connection caused me to change my mind.


----------



## DjBobby

Okonkwo said:


> For some strange reason Burson decided to cut corners with the volume control.  Yes, it has a fancy OLED screen with a PGA2310 digital processor.
> And, yes, it has a fancy CNC precision knurled knob.   Unfortunately, the one part that really matters - the rotary encoder behind the knob, is a piece of junk.
> I've found that when advancing the knob click by click, it will sometimes stutter - and even go backwards (20, 21, 22, 23, 23, 22, 24, 25...).
> The knob itself probably costs 20 dollars, while the encoder, with its wobbly plastic shaft, probably costs 29 cents.
> ...


Just checked, I couldn't reproduce any problem with the volume control on my unit, everything is smooth and linear. However, I could hear the background noise with highly sensitive iems, which is completely independent of the volume setting.



pbarach said:


> I was considering this equipment, but the various reports of problems with the volume control and the USB connection caused me to change my mind.


Using the included usb cable, connected to a powered usb hub leading to a MacBook pro, never ever had any usb connection issue.


----------



## EternalChampion

pbarach said:


> I was considering this equipment, but the various reports of problems with the volume control and the USB connection caused me to change my mind.



The provided white USB cable is 100% responsible for the issue.  They now have a new supplier.

Are you really going to reject C3R just because the volume knob jumps a notch at sometimes while being turned?  That's some serious nit-picking my friend


----------



## Onik

Okonkwo said:


> Hello,
> I'd like to chime in with some quick initial impressions. Just received my Conductor 3 about 5 days ago.
> Setup:  Sennheiser HD 650's (stock), sourced by a Windows 10 desktop PC running Foobar with FLAC rip files
> 
> ...


Which HD650 you have 2019(made in Romania) or older?


----------



## Okonkwo

Onik said:


> Which HD650 you have 2019(made in Romania) or older?


My 650's were manufactured in 2016, made in Ireland.  I'm pretty loyal to these.  
I've owned Grado RS-1's, Audeze LCD-2's, and a few others, but nothing compares to the 650's with a good amp.


----------



## Okonkwo

DjBobby said:


> Just checked, I couldn't reproduce any problem with the volume control on my unit, everything is smooth and linear. However, I could hear the background noise with highly sensitive iems, which is completely independent of the volume setting.
> 
> 
> Using the included usb cable, connected to a powered usb hub leading to a MacBook pro, never ever had any usb connection issue.


Sounds like you have a good unit.  Don't get me wrong, I still think the C3R is terrific - overall, I'm very impressed with it.
From what I can tell, the encoder is a fairly common garden variety component.  I may eventually wind up replacing it with a higher quality version like an ALPS.
But for now I'm not going to worry about it.  It's like moving up to a new Mercedes, only a Mercedes with an occasional annoying rattle.  I can live with that.


----------



## pbarach

EternalChampion said:


> The provided white USB cable is 100% responsible for the issue.  They now have a new supplier.
> 
> Are you really going to reject C3R just because the volume knob jumps a notch at sometimes while being turned?  That's some serious nit-picking my friend


Yes.


----------



## drc73rp

My C3R has been relegated to DAC duties with an LDR pre-amp and a Pass amp providing power for my 1266TCs with excellent results. I've also reported before that I've not had good results using usb regenerators and conditioners connecting my PC to the C3R. Now that I've simplified the connection to using just one adapter to connect to the USB C input of the C3R (really hate this choice of usb input connection), and with a good silver USB cable with separate power and signal lines), my experience so far has been that these regenerators do contribute to quieter background, more focused imaging, refined highs and lows plus just more realistic sense of space with the additional detail coming through (yup all that). While it could be that the effect is magnified by the better amplification I have on tap, the improvement is noticeable across all the usb add-ons I've used - Uptone USB and Iso regen, iFi usb iPurifier 2 and 3. Best result has been with the iPurifier3  with Lavricable's silver USB cable.


----------



## kebcy

Hello dear Head-Fiers!
My question would be the following.

Anybody tried to make a custom power supply for the Conductor 3REF? Can I get any kind of advantages if I build or buy a custom (better) power supply what the Burson Provides for their units? 

Any thoughts about this?
I am asking this cause I am buying a Isotek Multiway 6 switch which have some good reps in here Hungary about how this item can "make more room" for the amps/preamps simply just "filtering" the incoming electricity from the wall.. and in this thought I was like, what about the custom power supply as well? It can make the amp sound better, or no?

Maybe @Alex?

Regards,
Krisztián


----------



## ishmaelk

pbarach said:


> I was considering this equipment, but the various reports of problems with the volume control and the USB connection caused me to change my mind.


Hi. 
What problems with the USB connection have people found?
Thanks.


----------



## Womaz

ishmaelk said:


> Hi.
> What problems with the USB connection have people found?
> Thanks.



it’s the usb cable that is provided is where the problem was for me. It just did not work. Other than that no problems for me


----------



## ishmaelk

Womaz said:


> it’s the usb cable that is provided is where the problem was for me. It just did not work. Other than that no problems for me


Ok, thanks.
I had read about the usb cable, but I was afraid there might be more problems. 
I've had a Burson Conductor SL 1793 and a Soloist SL MKII. I loved both, but sometimes I felt that the Conductor was too sensitive to noise from the USB port.
I've preordered the combo Composer + Soloist 3XP, and the last think I want is a noisy USB. 
Can I ask you, @Womaz, what the Conductor 3 replaced and if it was a big improvement? 
Thanks.


----------



## Womaz

ishmaelk said:


> Ok, thanks.
> I had read about the usb cable, but I was afraid there might be more problems.
> I've had a Burson Conductor SL 1793 and a Soloist SL MKII. I loved both, but sometimes I felt that the Conductor was too sensitive to noise from the USB port.
> I've preordered the combo Composer + Soloist 3XP, and the last think I want is a noisy USB.
> ...



It replaced the Auralic Taurus which I had for over 4 years. Yes for me there was a big improvement. I was told it could take a little while for the unit to burn in, bit straight out of the box it sounded better.


----------



## ishmaelk

Womaz said:


> It replaced the Auralic Taurus which I had for over 4 years. Yes for me there was a big improvement. I was told it could take a little while for the unit to burn in, bit straight out of the box it sounded better.


That's a really good reference, I have a high opinion of the Taurus.
Was it a MKI or a MKII?


----------



## Womaz

ishmaelk said:


> That's a really good reference, I have a high opinion of the Taurus.
> Was it a MKI or a MKII?


It was MK2


----------



## Lebber67

Hi,

I’m playing for more then 6 months with a Burson Conductor 3R and a LCD-XC and I‘m very pleased with the sound.
My BC3R, was also delivered with a faulty usb C cable, I replaced this with a Audioquest Carbon A-C usb Cable into my Roon Nucleus.

The woble in the knob is absolutely not in par with the sound and build quality, but Burson replied that this is due to the selection function when press this volume knob.
It would be better to have a separate selection button and a fixed volume Alps Knob. I love to pay extra for this.
But the sound matters and this is very, very good!


----------



## dbcampbell

Hello -  

just received my c3ref and am looking for input into the usb issue. I’m running off a 2018 iPad Pro.  I initially tried three different usb c to usb c cables (anker brand) and none of them would work.  I tried the usb c to usb a that came with the c3ref, along with the usb a to usb c adapter. This would not work if the adapter end was plugged into the c3ref unit, but would work if that end was plugged into the iPad.  Any thoughts as to what is causing this issue?  
thanks in advance


----------



## Bruc3

was keen on this amp, but reading this thread seems some minor qc issues which I think is not really acceptable at this price level.

Wobbly volume knob and usb issues. Also apparently high noise floor even with some higher impedance headphones like Hd650?


----------



## dbcampbell

Feedback from burson is that this is an OTG issue with the usb connection.  using the small USB adapter puts the iPad in OTG mode, which works with the conductor. I’ve found that plugging in any usb c to usb a into any adapter into iPad will work.


----------



## Okonkwo

I've been listening critically to this amp now everyday for over a month.  The sound just continues to amaze me.
I would definitely recommend it to anyone currently on the fence (nickel-dime complaints aside).


----------



## dbcampbell

I definitely do like the sound!


----------



## Okonkwo

Has anyone tried alternative USB-A to USB-C cables?
If so, I'd be interested in comparative feedback against the stock Burson cable.


----------



## HeavenlyD (Nov 2, 2020)

Agreed id also like advice on the USB Cable.

Has anyone gone simply AudioQuest Carbon USB-C from Unit straight into Macbook either with USB-A or C when using Tidal etc?
I’ve just tested this with AudioQuest Forest Usb-C straight into iPhone and it played fine.


----------



## dbcampbell

I’ve been able to get any usb c to usb a cable to work c3ref to iPad Pro.  This has been either thru using a usb a to usb c adapter to plug into iPad or plugging the usb a into a hub and then into iPad


----------



## dbcampbell

So, I definitely not have golden ears. So much tinnitus and decreased ability to discern good from bad as compared with most of you.  The combo of burson c3ref and hifiman Arya has been the first time I said ‘woh!’ "Wow!’.   Compared against bifrost multibit/lyr 1....yikes so much better!


----------



## dbcampbell

dbcampbell said:


> So, I definitely not have golden ears. So much tinnitus and decreased ability to discern good from bad as compared with most of you.  The combo of burson c3ref and hifiman Arya has been the first time I said ‘woh!’ "Wow!’.   Compared against he560, bifrost multibit/lyr 1....yikes so much better!


----------



## Bucketron

I would like to change the SMPS to LPS for my Conductor 3X. Can any one let me know what is the DC cord connector dimension? I mean the outer ring diameter and inner ring diamter of the circular connector that plug to the unit. I don't have a proper instrument to measure it.  Thanks!


----------



## zabin29

Bruc3 said:


> was keen on this amp, but reading this thread seems some minor qc issues which I think is not really acceptable at this price level.
> 
> Wobbly volume knob and usb issues. Also apparently high noise floor even with some higher impedance headphones like Hd650?


for me, the volume knob is not really an issue, wobbles if you shake it but rolling it back and forth it feels nice and doesn't wobble.  I did notice the wobble at first too and was scratching my head a bit.


----------



## dj1978

Bucketron said:


> I would like to change the SMPS to LPS for my Conductor 3X. Can any one let me know what is the DC cord connector dimension? I mean the outer ring diameter and inner ring diamter of the circular connector that plug to the unit. I don't have a proper instrument to measure it.  Thanks!



the plug is 2.5 mm 
I recommend changing to LPS is to improve, especially the sound stage


----------



## Bucketron

dj1978 said:


> the plug is 2.5 mm
> I recommend changing to LPS is to improve, especially the sound stage


Thank you!


----------



## manishex (Nov 15, 2020)

Anyone want to try this new op amp?
https://www.newclassd.com/index.php...0sYSQFxnCls5-4AKNgmzfMgrwdoINSawYDAa3Zc9UCJQU

Can't find any LPS that are 24v 3a? If you're only using the amp portion can you skimp down on this, does it still use all 5 MPCS?

edit: found this: https://www.bicker.de/en/upsic-2403


----------



## Slim1970

manishex said:


> Anyone want to try this new op amp?
> https://www.newclassd.com/index.php...0sYSQFxnCls5-4AKNgmzfMgrwdoINSawYDAa3Zc9UCJQU
> 
> Can't find any LPS that are 24v 3a? If you're only using the amp portion can you skimp down on this, does it still use all 5 MPCS?
> ...


That op-amp looks like a contender. I like the way they described the sound.


----------



## zabin29

I've only had the Burson 3 ref for a little while, and when I try to connect via bluetooth, it won't let me connect until I manually disconnect from the previous device that was connected instead of it overriding the other device's connection automatically.  Are others having this experience? pretty annoying, especially if I have to look for the other device to disconnect.


----------



## manishex (Nov 17, 2020)

Would it be safe to use a c14 to c7 adapter since I already have a good (UK) power cable?

https://www.cleareraudio.com/products/iec-c14-to-figure-8-c7-adaptor#

Makes sense for a 2 core cable, but what happens to the earth wire?

Edit:
Called up the shop, should be fine as earth is terminated in the adapter.


----------



## DjBobby (Nov 17, 2020)

zabin29 said:


> I've only had the Burson 3 ref for a little while, and when I try to connect via bluetooth, it won't let me connect until I manually disconnect from the previous device that was connected instead of it overriding the other device's connection automatically.  Are others having this experience? pretty annoying, especially if I have to look for the other device to disconnect.


Burson C3 doesn't act as a bluetooth host (active), but as a BT receiver (passive). The Conductor connects to the BT host, the same as other bluetooth headphones, speakers or Apple Watch do. As far as know, all bluetooth devices which I have, remember the last connection and connect automatically to the last host device. Like for example: if I have previously used my bt earphones with my iPhone but want to use them now with my iPad, there is no way for iPad to override that connection. I have to manually disconnect them from the iPhone and then connect them with the iPad.
Therefore the C3 doesn't behave differently than other passive bluetooth receiving device.


----------



## dj1978

manishex said:


> Can't find any LPS that are 24v 3a? If you're only using the amp portion can you skimp down on this, does it still use all 5 MPCS?
> 
> edit: found this: https://www.bicker.de/en/upsic-2403



I recommend this LPS, is available 24V 3A, very good quality 
https://pl.aliexpress.com/item/32833367772.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.7b2e5c0ftntyKC
and DC power cable 
http://ghentaudio.com/part/dc22.html


----------



## manishex

dj1978 said:


> I recommend this LPS, is available 24V 3A, very good quality
> https://pl.aliexpress.com/item/32833367772.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.7b2e5c0ftntyKC
> and DC power cable
> http://ghentaudio.com/part/dc22.html


Oh nice, I was trying to search for 24v 3a directly instead of 120w. I found this which looks amazing: 

https://a.aliexpress.com/_BTVT6h

But burson prefers us to use their power supply... Either because there shouldn't be much difference sound and we may risk damaging the unit. However this has smart protection.


----------



## dj1978

manishex said:


> Oh nice, I was trying to search for 24v 3a directly instead of 120w. I found this which looks amazing:
> 
> https://a.aliexpress.com/_BTVT6h
> 
> But burson prefers us to use their power supply... Either because there shouldn't be much difference sound and we may risk damaging the unit. However this has smart protection.


I've been using it for over 2 months now and everything works fine. And the sound gets better


----------



## manishex

Sparkos op amp 25 % black Friday sale


----------



## Slim1970

manishex said:


> Sparkos op amp 25 % black Friday sale


Probably gonna pick up a couple of these to try in my Soloist.


----------



## JWahl

dj1978 said:


> I've been using it for over 2 months now and everything works fine. And the sound gets better



That's good to know.  It may be that the LPS is just putting out lower noise harmonics into the input of the MCPS section.  However, the MCPS would still be "chopping" the DC output into a switched AC waveform regardless, which kind of defeats the main point of an LPS (aside from lower input harmonics).  The LPS will do nothing for the new harmonics created, although those should technically be well outside the range of human hearing.  It would also restrict the theoretical peak current available to the MCPS due the impedance of the transformer.  Realistically though, you're probably not going to hit the practical peak-current limit unless you've got a really difficult load like the Susvara.

Whether true LPS or MCPS is better is debatable and probably subjective.  It boils down to whether out-of-band harmonics or restricting transient peak-current output has a more negative effect on subjective audio performance.  Burson is basically betting that supplying transient peak current is more important than out-of-band harmonics.


----------



## zabin29

I was reading the manual and it says not to connect or disconnect the headphone jack while music is playing, why? is this an issue specific to burson or is that just being overly cautious.  i must confess, i've already done it, i know, living on the edge.


----------



## DjBobby

zabin29 said:


> I was reading the manual and it says not to connect or disconnect the headphone jack while music is playing, why? is this an issue specific to burson or is that just being overly cautious.  i must confess, i've already done it, i know, living on the edge.


I think it is just being overly cautious. Don't see a problem with solid state gear. I think this originates way back from the tube amps.


----------



## Bonddam

Sparko ss3602 dual op amps. I found vivid rolled off up top with lcd 2 and empyrean. The Sparko op amps gave boost in bass and nice sparkle up top.


----------



## Bucketron

Bonddam said:


> Sparko ss3602 dual op amps. I found vivid rolled off up top with lcd 2 and empyrean. The Sparko op amps gave boost in bass and nice sparkle up top.


Exactly!  That's what I experienced too.


----------



## Bonddam

Does anyone know what the jumper is for?


----------



## DjBobby

Bonddam said:


> Does anyone know what the jumper is for?


Where is the jumper?


----------



## Bonddam

DjBobby said:


> Where is the jumper?


i'll have to take a pic. It's used to connect pins on a board.


----------



## Onik

Why most Bursons Amp has microphone inputs?


----------



## Bonddam

Onik said:


> Why most Bursons Amp has microphone inputs?


I’ll never use the mic input.


----------



## normie610

Onik said:


> Why most Bursons Amp has microphone inputs?



Karaoke perhaps?


----------



## Onik

normie610 said:


> Karaoke perhaps?


L O L


----------



## Onik

Bonddam said:


> I’ll never use the mic input.


same I buy amp just for powering my headphones


----------



## JoeDoe

Morning fellas! Jumpin in on MLK day just to share my enthusiasm for the C3R!

A quick perusal of my profile will show you that there have been a LOT of desktop units (including AIOs) to come through in the last 5-6 years and in brief, the C3XR is well, the best! The Aussies _nailed_ the balance of all things in this unit, and at a new price that's VERY competitive in it's price range. (Was lucky enough to pick up a like new unit for about half of retail so feelin' like I won the lottery over here!)

Wrote a quick review with my thoughts earlier this week here: https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/burson-conductor-3x.24156/reviews 

For reference, the headphones in my stable are the Grado PS1000, PS2000e, Mayflower T50rp, and Hifiman HE6. All sound superb through the Burson. Anyone else out there enjoying their unit these days?


----------



## Onik (Feb 19, 2021)

.


----------



## Jonwch

Does anyone have experience pairing the 3r with Meze Empyreans. Currently have them paired with an ifi micro bl and itching for an upgrade. 

J


----------



## Onik

When I use my C3 REF as DAC for my tube amp I hear Humming/Buzzing 60hz noise from both channels when the volume is at around 11 clock and its gets louder, also I tried different dac but there wasn't any hum/buz noise.

I assume its a groundloop issues but I also tried 2pins power plug for the C3 REFS PSU but result is same can anyone help me?


----------



## DjBobby

Onik said:


> When I use my C3 REF as DAC for my tube amp I hear Humming/Buzzing 60hz noise from both channels when the volume is at around 11 clock and its gets louder, also I tried different dac but there wasn't any hum/buz noise.
> 
> I assume its a groundloop issues but I also tried 2pins power plug for the C3 REFS PSU but result is same can anyone help me?


Am a little bit late for with a reply, I do hope you have resolved in the meantime your issue with humming. I suppose it's a ground loop, since I wasn't able to reproduce it, at any volume setting. 

On another note, haven't listened to the C3 for a while. I periodically take some listening "sabbatical" from my different headphones, gears and preffered music as well. 
After some break up period, it is nice to revisit the gear and the music. It is kinda buying it again. After clearing up the "listening history" and getting free from the bias reading so many reviews, coming back from "sabbatical" helps me to listen more objectively. Sometimes, with certain gears I am not anymore sure it was a great buy back then, sometimes I even regret buying it and something it makes me happy I did a right thing. 
Last night, after returning to the C3 after some longer break, I was extensively browsing through several Tidal playlists and was just (again) overwhelmed with spaciousness and huge soundstage. I have deliberately chosen AKG K701 for my marathon listening session, because they have somewhat cooler and analytical sound. I was amazed how warm and non-fatiguing they sound. There was wonderful airiness to the sound and the bass was warm, but stil tight and well controlled. Compared my notes, back in time when I first reviewed the C3 and I think, I wouldn't write it differently now. 
So, the C3 has confirmed a best buy and secured a firm place in my setup.


----------



## Celty

Onik said:


> Why most Bursons Amp has microphone inputs?


One use case is for gamers and others who use a headphone with an integrated microphone.


----------



## iMemphis

I currently have the Final Audio D8000 Pros and looking to purchase a new Dac/amp. I am debating between the Burson Conductor 3 or 3x. Which do you guys think would be the better purchases here to power the D8000 pros?


----------



## DjBobby

iMemphis said:


> I currently have the Final Audio D8000 Pros and looking to purchase a new Dac/amp. I am debating between the Burson Conductor 3 or 3x. Which do you guys think would be the better purchases here to power the D8000 pros?


Final Audio D8000 Pros comes with two cables, both unbalanced. 
If you already have or want to add a balanced cable, then I would personally go for the 3X.


----------



## buson160man (Jun 22, 2021)

I recently picked up an external power supply with a iec outlet input so I can pair my conductor 3 ref with a power cord of my choice. It is also a bit larger supply as well. I really like that I can use a much more ambitious power cord than the garden variety two pin inlet standard cord on the standard supply provided with the burson conductor 3 reference. For you owners out there just making a suggestion for you.


----------



## atmfrank

buson160man said:


> I really like that I can use a much more ambitious power cord than the garden variety two pin inlet standard cord on the standard supply provided with the burson conductor 3 reference.


I don't know how much difference this would make since the AC frequency upsampling to 170kHz technically eliminates any remote possibility for noise entering the circuity from the power source.


----------



## raoultrifan

buson160man said:


> I recently picked up an external power supply with a iec outlet input so I can pair my conductor 3 ref with a power cord of my choice. It is also a bit larger supply as well. I really like that I can use a much more ambitious power cord than the garden variety two pin inlet standard cord on the standard supply provided with the burson conductor 3 reference. For you owners out there just making a suggestion for you.


Strongly not recommended! I've measured the AC ripple & noise of the original PSU from C3X and C3 and it was only few mV RMS. I strongly doubt that your new PSU would be any better, especially that adding the 3rd ping (Earth/GND) is not helpful in this case. You will also loose the warranty too.

Just stick with the original PSU that has several tests done by manufacturer.

P.S.: Feel free to search for my external PSU tests (a very low noise linear PSU) from the C3X thread. The output THD+N remained unchanged when tested the C3X with the original PSU vs. the big toroid linear PSU.


----------



## rsbrsvp

Q: 

1.  Does a fanless pc with a linear PS improve on a laptop?
2. Does etherregen and SOTM usb-tx ultra improve sound?

Or does the Burson reference sound the same or better without these extras?

Please- only people who have actually tried these product- answer....

Thanks...


----------



## raoultrifan

1. No. At least no if your SMPS PSU is a good one. Before I purchase a desktop PSU I always look for tests and measurements first, so I suggest you do the same. Besides output voltage and current the ripple and noise is an important decision factor too.

2. No, at least not under normal domestic circumstances. Look up for tests and measurements. Maybe if you have some crappy laptop with a really crappy USB port an external +5V injector might help.

Burson C3 will measure and will sound the same under all of the above circumstances! I measured both C3 Ref. and C3X Ref. on jack out and with headphones connected (I measured headphones sound profile), also tested with at least 10 laptops and desktops.


----------



## rsbrsvp (Jul 9, 2021)

I currently have a Audio-gd R-7HE regenerative PS DAC and the Audio-gd HE-9 Regenerative headphone amp.

They sound stunning and they improve with a fanless PC with teddy pardo PSU, etherregen and reclockers.  I even have a mutec 10mhz ref 10 se-120 OXCO clock.

My problem, is all this equipment is to gigantic.  I want a smaller system.

I am not foolish enough to think this Burson will match my mighty Audio-gd system, but my hope is  I will get 90% of the sound and cut the size by 3/4.

My concern is I will only get 70% of the sound- and it may be a more realistic.

I'm scared to take the plunge..

It is very hard for me to believe the burson is immune to the incoming signal.   My Audio-gd system with a laptop vs fanless PC with external linear PS has a noticable change.


----------



## Innoinno31

Hello, 
i'm in love with my burson 3 reference so far  
I had a THX amp before, and i found it too analytical , now im happy so far !

i have a tricky question, but i dont want fight  Is a very good cable USB important for this amp/dac?


----------



## Mightygrey

Innoinno31 said:


> i have a tricky question, but i dont want fight  Is a very good cable USB important for this amp/dac?


I don't want to open up a can of worms, but I'm confident you'll be just fine with a regular printer or phone USB cable.


----------



## Innoinno31

Thank you for your answer, this will save me some money


----------



## EternalChampion (Jul 20, 2021)

https://www.bursonaudio.com/products/super-charger-3a/

What would you do? I'm thinking about it.  20% off until end of month.  My optical cable cost me the same amount and I'm pleased it wasn't   snake oil.   If this one has the same effect and clicks performance another notch up (hard to believe the "whole new level" in the description), I'm in.

Where's Raoultrifan we need your take on this one


----------



## raoultrifan

Me here, mate. 

I'll have one soon and have it measured on my oscilloscope, but I am sure it will have an even lower AC ripple & noise than the original PSU from Conductor. Having a second PSU, at least as a backup, is always a good thing, especially that the Supercharger is quite small and easy to carry around, even in vacation.

For a lower AC ripple & noise the Supercharger might be a good addition to an audio system, although we all know that inside the Conductor there are plenty of low-noise linear regulators that handle very well noises that come from the AC mains. I've heard couple of headfiers having strange noises when using Conductor without any sort of grounding on the RCA/XLR plugs (entire audio system was having floating ground), so maybe those might benefit from the Supercharger too.

I would not expect a night & day difference when swapping the original PSU with the Supercharger, but like I said, a smaller and nicer and lower noise PSU would be a good addition to everyone's audio system.


----------



## EternalChampion

I knew you already had it coming   

Let's see what it has to say then.


----------



## dbcampbell

does Anyone have a preference on which cans have synergy with this amp?


----------



## geoffalter11

dbcampbell said:


> does Anyone have a preference on which cans have synergy with this amp?


I had tremendous synergy with my Quad Era-1, Focal Clear and Ether CX.


----------



## raoultrifan

dbcampbell said:


> does Anyone have a preference on which cans have synergy with this amp?


Due to its very low internal impedance, its high amount of power but also due its adjustable gain it will drive any can you want. The days when the output stage of a headamp was influenced by the impedance of the cans used or by the inductance of the longer cables are gone.


----------



## mudguardiain

I have added the supercharger to my Soloist 3X & it makes a worth while improvement, same sound but everything just a little clearer, hearing micro details better, really happy I made the purchase, would no go back to the original supply. Also, I have a pair of LCD-3 & this amp really brings the best out of them, compared to when I first time I heard the LCD-3 through lesser amps, this amp can make a significant improvement. I use a silver cable from cosmic cables which also helped & recently swapped to the new style ear pads from Audeze, these also improve sound by lifting the upper mids & lower treble giving a clearer sound. I was tempted to sell the LCD-3 but currently I am more than happy & really engaging with my music on this set up, Melco N1A,Chord Qutest & Soloist 3X. I may consider getting some ZMF Verite in the future but for now I would rather invest my money in more music


----------



## realmassy

Probably a long shot, has anyone compared the Conductor with the Violectric V590 or the SPL Phonitor XE, as all in one solution?


----------



## Slim1970

realmassy said:


> Probably a long shot, has anyone compared the Conductor with the Violectric V590 or the SPL Phonitor XE, as all in one solution?


This would be a good comparison indeed!


----------



## Dramlin

For anyone who has tried the Sparkos opamps, do they fit into the C3R as-is, or do you need to use extenders? Thinking of picking up 2 SS3602 and 2 SS3601's, but I can't seem to get confirmation that they will fit without any issues.


----------



## Dramlin

Dramlin said:


> For anyone who has tried the Sparkos opamps, do they fit into the C3R as-is, or do you need to use extenders? Thinking of picking up 2 SS3602 and 2 SS3601's, but I can't seem to get confirmation that they will fit without any issues.



To answer my own question, yes the Sparkos SS360X op amps do fit in the C3R case without any modifications or extensions needed.


----------



## Dramlin

My review is now posted:

https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/burson-conductor-3-reference.24053/review/26914/

Spoiler, it's a glowing review. I'm beyond happy with this headphone amplifier. Aside from trying out additional op amp configurations for curiosity, I'm done searching for a better sound. The C3R provides the sound I've been looking for all these years. Listening to some classical music last night actually made me teary eyed, just due to the emotional impact that the sound can bring. Awesome amp.


----------



## PointyFox (Sep 29, 2021)

Just got the Burson Conductor 3R (V6 Vivid op amps, Rev. 2.5 internals) and compared it to my Topping D90SE/A90 stack.

The Topping's sound is a bit more...crispy? But it's also more compact and left/right/center sounds are more separate.
It sounds more like I'm listening to three distinct sound sources.

The Burson sounds a bit smoother and sounds spread out more, making more of a continuous sound field which sounds more natural to me.

I think I prefer the Burson.

No noise floor audible on the Focal Clear OG, but I can hear it on my IEMs. Does anyone know if the Burson Supercharger reduces it?

Also, does anyone's volume knob occasionally do the opposite thing?  Like I'll scroll up, then once in a while it will go down a click, or if I'm scrolling down, it will occasionally go up a click, like maybe 1 out of every 10 or 20 bumps.


----------



## Dramlin

PointyFox said:


> Also, does anyone's volume knob occasionally do the opposite thing? Like I'll scroll up, then once in a while it will go down a click, or if I'm scrolling down, it will occasionally go up a click, like maybe 1 out of every 10 or 20 bumps.



Yes, my volume knob has the same behavior. 



PointyFox said:


> No noise floor audible on the Focal Clear OG, but I can hear it on my IEMs. Does anyone know if the Burson Supercharger reduces it?



I too am wondering this. I see one review after another saying that the super charger 3A gives a blacker background, which I take to mean that the noise floor & hiss would be reduced. I can't find anyone conclusively saying that hiss is reduced with the super charger though.


----------



## PointyFox

Yeah, need to hope that they are ACTUALLY hearing a blacker background. The Burson website says it reduces noise, but is power supply noise even a factor in the noise floor? It may be inperceptable already.


----------



## PointyFox

Is this volume control behavior normal?


----------



## Dramlin

I'll defer to others, as I think we need a group consensus on what is normal there. Mine does the same but at probably 70-80% of the severity.


----------



## buffalomatt

FWIW Mine doesn’t do that


----------



## Dramlin (Oct 5, 2021)

Onwards to some more op amps in the C3R. I won't be going in detail about these as they are all failures in my opinion only. Only listing them to save someone else the trouble of buying them only to find that they don't work as well as the stock setup. All op amps listed were combined with the V6 Vivids.

- *Muses03* in the LP stage: Performance is close to the V6 Vivids, but with a lot less realism and details. Instrument reproduction seems a bit off/not quite right. Otherwise the sound is quite good. Of all the op amps I'm listing in this post, the Muses03 sounded the best.

- *Burson V5i* in the I/V stage: Noise floor is roughly doubled. Otherwise the sound quality is similar to the Muses03 setup with some different features.

- *AD827SQ* in the I/V stage: This op amp is my favorite IC op amp in the XDuoo XD-05+, so I was looking forward to trying it in the C3R. It fails spectacularly. Noise floor is multiplied several times, the sound stage collapses, and everything has a fuzzy overtone to it. It's obvious that this is unstable, and shouldn't go near the C3R.

- *AD847SQ* in the LP stage: This is the single version of the 827SQ. In the LP stage it seems stable, but still doesn't sound that great. Brighter than neutral, unrealistic sounding instruments, and a lack of detail compared to the V6 Vivids.


Next up in my op amp testing will probably be the Staccato op amps. I'm also tempted to try the Douk audio discretes, and some V6 classics for the I/V stage. If anyone knows of any other quality discrete op amps, let me know.


----------



## EternalChampion

Dramlin said:


> Next up in my op amp testing will probably be the Staccato op amps. I'm also tempted to try the Douk audio discretes, and some V6 classics for the I/V stage. If anyone knows of any other quality discrete op amps, let me know.



The next real step from the Burson V6 has a name I can't see in your list.    

It's called the 992enh-ticha for single and the 994enh-ticha for dual channel operation made by Sonic Imagery Labs, which I assume you have not heard about them so far.  For very easy and flexible installation of those boards inside the Burson DAC you'll need the Burson 35mm extension leads or something similar.

I'm currently in the process of evaluating op-amps using the Conductor 3R. 

For the time being I will only say that the SIL 992/994 are the THOROUGH next step from the already wonderful Burson V6 despite being decade old devices.  I was in search of such an op-amp, something having both of its feet well placed onto the next step of the performance ladder and not just 1 or 1 and a half.  Everything feels more clean and effortless.  The 3D picture rendered is of higher quality.  The sound is more mature, more complete...Even closer to perfection, if that's ever possible.

Give them around 150-200 hours of playing time and then switch between them and the V6 to hear what I'm talking about.

I also bought the Burson Supercharger 3A to replace the 10 Euro worth power brick that was shipped with the DAC.  Again, even less "haze", better detail retrieval, more slam, more enjoyable!

This is some good stuff.  My ear sensors are telling me that it's already good enough to stop here, but I know very well that this is not possible knowing that further improvement always awaits at the corner at a sensible cost.

Upgraditis is like an everlasting illness.  In its trivial form, even though it's still bad for you it never becomes a real problem either!


----------



## Dramlin (Oct 8, 2021)

Thank you! You've both made my day, and severely damaged my wallet.

I had looked at the 992/994's a couple of times, but had written them off since they wouldn't fit without some tinkering. Now that I know it's worth the try, I'll look at using either extensions or tiered adapters to make them fit. In your current setup (even if it's not final) are you using both the 992+994's, or are you combining one of those with a different op amp, like 992+V6 Duals?

As for the supercharger, it's only a matter of time until I get one. The C3R is my final headphone amp, I'm already completely happy with it, so I'm looking to push every aspect of it to the limit.


----------



## alekc

Dramlin said:


> As for the supercharger, it's only a matter of time until I get one. The C3R is my final headphone amp, I'm already completely happy with it, so I'm looking to push every aspect of it to the limit.


Lucky you!  Until new amp


----------



## EternalChampion

I apologize   

I personally prefer the extension leads because it allows me to bend them anyhow I want and fit the op-amps very easily inside at various angles.  The wires stay at the position you want them to be so from thereon rolling the op-amps in and out along with the extenders is as easy as with IC chips.

The legs on the 992/994 are NOT permanently attached! Avoid plugging them directly onto the socket.  They may detach while you plug in and out and reassembling them is not the easiest task.  Always move this op-amp around along with its extension.

Also, the 35mm extension legs will sit very loosely inside the socket! Therefore you must bend them slightly inwards with you finger or a tool for a secure fit, which is mandatory anyway in case you'll be using the C3R vertically.

DO NOT flex the wires all the way 180 degrees for retraction in order to get the desired angle.  It makes sense to buy an extra pair just in case.   It may come in handy in the future regardless.

In regards to my setup, I ordered a pair of singles and a dual.  Occupying 2/3 of the sockets is enough to get a solid picture of what is going on.  It's always a better choice to get both single and dual for testing if the option is available.
So, right now my configuration is: 2x 992, 1x 994 and 1x Vivid.


----------



## Dramlin

Thank you very much for the detailed info. I'm looking forward to giving it a try


----------



## EternalChampion




----------



## Dramlin

EternalChampion said:


> Also, the 35mm extension legs will sit very loosely inside the socket! Therefore you must bend them slightly inwards with you finger or a tool for a secure fit, which is mandatory anyway in case you'll be using the C3R vertically.


Thanks for sharing your setup with the pics, especially the part about bending the pins and not plugging them direct into the board. I've had an op amp pop before due to a loose pin connection, so it's good to know ahead of time that the 992/994's will need some attention to the connectors. The pics look good as well. I'm always paranoid about getting close to the case with an op amp, but your setup looks good.

I've gone overboard with the op amps as usual-- I'm expecting quite a few to arrive in the coming weeks. I'll post some impressions once I've been able to compare them all.


----------



## EternalChampion

Dramlin said:


> Thanks for sharing your setup with the pics, especially the part about bending the pins and not plugging them direct into the board. I've had an op amp pop before due to a loose pin connection, so it's good to know ahead of time that the 992/994's will need some attention to the connectors. The pics look good as well. I'm always paranoid about getting close to the case with an op amp, but your setup looks good.



Yeah it is crucial that the pins of the 35mm extension have a tight grip into the DAC's socket.   The 994 is a heavy boy. You don't want it to take the pins out for a walk.     Btw, the op-amp pins lock very nicely into the extension's female without any adjustment required.


----------



## buson160man

raoultrifan said:


> Strongly not recommended! I've measured the AC ripple & noise of the original PSU from C3X and C3 and it was only few mV RMS. I strongly doubt that your new PSU would be any better, especially that adding the 3rd ping (Earth/GND) is not helpful in this case. You will also loose the warranty too.
> 
> Just stick with the original PSU that has several tests done by manufacturer.
> 
> P.S.: Feel free to search for my external PSU tests (a very low noise linear PSU) from the C3X thread. The output THD+N remained unchanged when tested the C3X with the original PSU vs. the big toroid linear PSU.


I do not agree with your observation. Sonically speaking the IEC power supply combination is noticeably better than the stock power supply provided with the unit. The harmonic technology ac-10 (earlier version) is hugely better than the c7 power cable that comes with the stock power supply. I have had no issues with the pairing. I leave the conductor 3 powered up for best sound.  But I am using the conductor 3 optioned for dac only operation. When I use the headphone amplifier on the REF 3 I can hear a signature from the switching power supply that burson uses. I have done a lot of listening comparing the headphone amplifier section of the ref 3 to my old Burson HA-160 headphone amplifier which uses a analog power supply and I actually prefer the sound of the older Ha-160 headphone amp. It just sounds more analog like . It does not have any electronic signature like the Ref 3 has.


----------



## Womaz (Oct 20, 2021)

Sorry if this is a basic question , I have the Ref 3 XR and I want to use the Qutest with it as a DAC.......what connection would I use? There are no RCA inputs.....I am guessing it cant be done.


----------



## Uebelkraehe

Womaz said:


> Sorry if this is a basic question , I have the Ref 3 XR and I want to use the Qutest with it as a DAC.......what connection would I use? There are no RCA inputs.....I am guessing it cant be done.


Simply get an RCA to XLR cable?


----------



## Dramlin

Womaz said:


> Sorry if this is a basic question , I have the Ref 3 XR and I want to use the Qutest with it as a DAC.......what connection would I use? There are no RCA inputs.....I am guessing it cant be done.


I'd personally email Burson on that one. In the C3XR manual they have a long section talking about RCA to XLR adapters, but that is for outputting to an external AMP. They also say that the use of XLR to RCA adapters will void the warranty. There's no mention of input adapters though, so Burson will be the best source to get that info.


----------



## Womaz

Uebelkraehe said:


> Simply get an RCA to XLR cable?


Like I say my knowledge is not good......so this would work? I didnt even know there was such a thing


----------



## Womaz

Dramlin said:


> I'd personally email Burson on that one. In the C3XR manual they have a long section talking about RCA to XLR adapters, but that is for outputting to an external AMP. They also say that the use of XLR to RCA adapters will void the warranty. There's no mention of input adapters though, so Burson will be the best source to get that info.


Thanks for the post. I have just looked at the manual and they say not to use RCA to XLR , but to use a transformer type adaptor.....I dont think I will bother with this.
It was to do a comparison so its not the end of the world.


----------



## Uebelkraehe

Womaz said:


> Thanks for the post. I have just looked at the manual and they say not to use RCA to XLR , but to use a transformer type adaptor.....I dont think I will bother with this.
> It was to do a comparison so its not the end of the world.


I'm certainly not guaranteeing you anything, but imo they are talking about OUTPUT for a reason. Probably worth shooting them an email and ask about Input, which most probably shouldn't have a problem with XLR to RCA cables.


----------



## damascato

Hey guys, 

I'm a happy owner of a Conductor 3XR. I recently purchased a pair of Audeze LCD-XC, which sound awesome, but.... I am noticing a very slight hiss when music is not playing (which I never noticed before with Audeze LCD-4z)

The amp in in High gain mode and I'm streaming music via an Allo Digione Signature with LPS and connected via SPDIF.
Cans are connected via 4-pin XLR

Any idea?


----------



## alekc

damascato said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> I'm a happy owner of a Conductor 3XR. I recently purchased a pair of Audeze LCD-XC, which sound awesome, but.... I am noticing a very slight hiss when music is not playing (which I never noticed before with Audeze LCD-4z)
> 
> ...


I have similar issue with Soloist 3XP and it is combination of Medium or High gain and XLR connected cans. Lower the gain and I bet the hiss will go away. Hardly it is a fix. Maybe other Conductor owners can shed some more light on this issue.


----------



## damascato

Uebelkraehe said:


> Simply get an RCA to XLR cable?


You would need a balanced to unbalanced (and the other way around) transformer. The user manual explains quite precisely what you need to do that


----------



## Uebelkraehe

damascato said:


> You would need a balanced to unbalanced (and the other way around) transformer. The user manual explains quite precisely what you need to do that


And it is very explicit that this is about output, as discussed in my later post.


----------



## Womaz

Uebelkraehe said:


> And it is very explicit that this is about output, as discussed in my later post.


Yes just had a reply from Burson 

_As the Chrod Quest only has RCA outputs, you can use a RCA-XLR adaptor to connect the Chrod Quest to the XLR inputs of the Conductor 3X Reference._


----------



## EternalChampion

Womaz said:


> Yes just had a reply from Burson
> 
> _As the Chrod Quest only has RCA outputs, you can use a RCA-XLR adaptor to connect the Chrod Quest to the XLR inputs of the Conductor 3X Reference._



This is an old story about a mysterious guy named Chrod who was in quest for many years of his old friend Rubson Audude.

Thank you for reminding me the touching love story


----------



## Dramlin (Nov 3, 2021)

I've continued my journey in trying more Op amps. Here's some brief thoughts on each of them:


*Staccato*: The Staccato's are a little on the warm side, not to the extent of the V6 Vivids but close. Bass slam and texture is improved over the V6 Vivids, and there's a little more natural decay on the end of each note. The overall sound is similar to the V6 Classic but with more spatial depth and less overall detail. I really wanted to like these, but the details are too smoothed over. Where the V6 Vivids have clear instruments and great detail, everything tends to blend together a bit on the Staccatos. The overall detail is closer to a really good IC op amp as opposed to a high level discrete. These may be ideal for some, but it's not the clear sound I'm looking for.


*Douk Audio SA100*: I was looking forward to these, then was surprised when they arrived with a grounding cable wire directly attached to the op amp circuit board. The grounding cable isn't shown in any of the store listings, otherwise I wouldn't have purchased these. I won't be installing these as I don't feel like messing around with this setup, so not sure how they sound. Just writing this so that others know what to expect.


*Sonic Imagery Labs 992Enh-Ticha & 994Enh-Ticha*: Sonic perfection if such a thing exists. I've been using this setup for a few weeks now. Pairing the 992's with the V6 Vivid Duals was a full level up in sound quality from any of the other op amp combinations I've experienced before. Going for the full 992+994 setup further improved the sound an additional half level or so. I can't sense any downsides or changes needed in the final sound. With that I want to scrutinize some of the comments that were said before about this setup:



EternalChampion said:


> I'm currently in the process of evaluating op-amps using the Conductor 3R.
> 
> For the time being I will only say that the SIL 992/994 are the THOROUGH next step from the already wonderful Burson V6 despite being decade old devices. I was in search of such an op-amp, something having both of its feet well placed onto the next step of the performance ladder and not just 1 or 1 and a half. Everything feels more clean and effortless. The 3D picture rendered is of higher quality. The sound is more mature, more complete...Even closer to perfection, if that's ever possible.



Yep, spot on.



EternalChampion said:


> The legs on the 992/994 are NOT permanently attached! Avoid plugging them directly onto the socket. They may detach while you plug in and out and reassembling them is not the easiest task. Always move this op-amp around along with its extension.





EternalChampion said:


>



I _really _wanted to find a way to install the 992's without the use of extensions, so in my experiments I did end up plugging them straight into the board. You warned me, I ignored it, and that was a mistake  . I was able to get the Op Amps out of the board, but it was a little dicey. In the end I did end up installing the 992's exactly as shown above with the extensions. Since the 992's were up and away from the dual slots, that did free up enough space to install the 994's in a normal configuration. I put the 994's into a Burson DIP 8 adapter just to make the leg connections a bit tighter (and make it easier to remove from the board if needed), then I installed that right into the board. I'm still contemplating building a tower of DIP 8 adapters for the 992's to raise them straight up over the 994's, but it will be a very close fit side to side with the duals. If I end up getting around to that, and it works, I'll take a picture of the setup.

@EternalChampion - thank you for the recommendation on the 992/994's. I'm now retired from messing with Op Amps in the C3 Ref as I'm fairly confident anything else I try will be a downgrade. Well, at least until Burson comes out with the V7's. I'll have to try those out of plain curiosity.


----------



## Womaz

I am going to connect a DAC to my 3XR with XLR cable......unless I am missing something really obvious there are no right or left markings?? I have downloaded the manual too and this does not make it clear either. Anyone help please?


----------



## EternalChampion

Dramlin said:


> I'm still contemplating building a tower of DIP 8 adapters for the 992's to raise them straight up over the 994's, but it will be a very close fit side to side with the duals. If I end up getting around to that, and it works, I'll take a picture of the setup.



That would be my very last resort!  Why not give the components some space to breathe if I have the option...I just don't like the idea of having a hot spot with 6 SIL boards being so close and on top of each other.  Chances are there won't be any problem in the long run but why to take the small risk if I can just avoid it.



Dramlin said:


> @EternalChampion - thank you for the recommendation on the 992/994's. I'm now retired from messing with Op Amps in the C3 Ref as I'm fairly confident anything else I try will be a downgrade. Well, at least until Burson comes out with the V7's. I'll have to try those out of plain curiosity.



Glad you like them! Even though musical preferences vary, I truly believe that 99% of the people will be inclined towards the SIL instead of the V6.  The upgrade is simply more than marginal.

Enjoy your new sound then (and don't forget the Supercharger    ), until the boat leaves the port for new adventures.


----------



## damascato

Womaz said:


> I am going to connect a DAC to my 3XR with XLR cable......unless I am missing something really obvious there are no right or left markings?? I have downloaded the manual too and this does not make it clear either. Anyone help please?


Hey mate

Top left 
Bottom right

Unfortunately this amazing toy has some obvious design flaws, like no marking on the ports and.... no on/off button on the remote (not the only DAC with this flaw).
Minor things, but...


----------



## jclyle (Nov 17, 2021)

I'm going to give opamp swapping a try in my 3r. Never swapped opamps before so a tad nervous about making the changes. Do the stock ones just pull out and you put the new ones in?

I'm going to start with a pair of Sparkos SS3602 Duals and stock V6 Vivids. Are these the right ones:
https://vtvamplifier.com/product/sparkos-ss3602-double-discrete-opamp-dip8-format/

Should the new ones go in the LP or IV stage? I'm hoping for the results Dramlin outlined in his initial review.


----------



## Dramlin (Nov 17, 2021)

jclyle said:


> I'm going to give opamp swapping a try in my 3r. Never swapped opamps before so a tad nervous about making the changes. Do the stock ones just pull out and you put the new ones in?


Welcome to op amp rolling! Yes, the stock op amps easily pull out, and the new ones just go right in. On some 3R's the stock op amps are held in place by a little red zip tie. If so, those zip ties will need to be cut with some scissors or small wire snips. I was surprised when I saw them in my 3R, and I didn't want to void the warranty, so I reached out to Burson. They said that they are only there to prevent the op amps from coming loose during shipping, and swapping op amps is fine. They told me that swapping wouldn't void the warranty, but if that's a concern for you then I would recommend you reach out to Burson to get confirmation of that as well.

In swapping op amps the only things you have to be careful of is making sure to only put dual op amps in dual slots, and singles in single slots. You also have to make sure they are facing the right direction/pin 1 goes into the pin 1 slot . Op amps always have an indicator on them to show which direction they should be installed. The V6's have an indent along the side of pin 1, and the sparkos have a little gold patch next to pin 1. On the board itself the op amp slots have an indent next to pin 1, so it's pretty clear how they should be installed.



jclyle said:


> I'm going to start with a pair of Sparkos SS3602 Duals and stock V6 Vivids. Are these the right ones:


For Sparkos I'd recommend going straight through sparkos themselves:
https://sparkoslabs.com/product/dual-discrete-op-amp-ss3602/

That said, everyone has a different setup.. different headphones, cables, source gear, and tastes. Every op amp swap will produce a different sound, and in the case of the 3R they all sound great.  If someone were to ask me now as to the easiest and cheapest way to get the best sound out of the 3R I would say get two single Sonic Imagery 992's: , and one package (2 extensions total) of op amp extensions from Burson . Once everything arrives just swap out the V6 singles for the 992's on extensions, angled to where they won't touch anything. That sound is so 'correct' that I'll be surprised if anyone were to say that it's not an end game for them. That rant aside, as I said every op amp has a different sound, so your ideal sound may very well be the Sparkos+Vivids. Only way to know in op amp rolling is to try them for yourself in your setup.



jclyle said:


> Should the new ones go in the LP or IV stage?


If you are getting duals, those would go in the I/V stage which is closest to the back of the unit (near the RCA inputs/outputs). When you open up the case you will see that the stock V6 Vivids say "Dual" or "Single" on them, so it will be clear which ones are the duals that need to be swapped.


----------



## jclyle (Nov 22, 2021)

Does anyone know which I\V slots are for the R and L channel? I just put the new Sparkos duals in and the R channel made a lot of noise and then went out. This happened after playing music for about 3 minutes. I put the V6 duals back in and all is well. The Sparkos didn't go in as tightly as the V6, maybe too loose a fit?


----------



## raoultrifan

I think I posted a picture here: https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/burson-conductor-3x.24156/reviews#review-23194, maybe it will help you.

Either the pins were a bit loose, either one opamp broke. Stick with the original V6.


----------



## jclyle

raoultrifan said:


> I think I posted a picture here: https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/burson-conductor-3x.24156/reviews#review-23194, maybe it will help you.
> 
> Either the pins were a bit loose, either one opamp broke. Stick with the original V6.



I put the Sparkos back in and everything sounds great. My thought is when I was screwing the cover back on, I turned the amp at just enough of an angle which may have caused one of the opamps to come loose.


----------



## raoultrifan

The best DIP8 sockets are the cheapest, due to the pre-bended blades from inside the socket, not the gold-plated audiophile-style ones:





It happened to me several times to have strange noises in the headphones when I punched the desk with my foot or hand (usually by mistake). However, bend opamp pins with 5 degrees and you should be able to achieve a better electrical contact.


----------



## jclyle

Are both sets of opamps used when the 3R is being used as a DAC only (fixed out)?


----------



## SnooDucksAudio

Dramlin said:


> I've continued my journey in trying more Op amps. Here's some brief thoughts on each of them:
> 
> 
> *Staccato*: The Staccato's are a little on the warm side, not to the extent of the V6 Vivids but close. Bass slam and texture is improved over the V6 Vivids, and there's a little more natural decay on the end of each note. The overall sound is similar to the V6 Classic but with more spatial depth and less overall detail. I really wanted to like these, but the details are too smoothed over. Where the V6 Vivids have clear instruments and great detail, everything tends to blend together a bit on the Staccatos. The overall detail is closer to a really good IC op amp as opposed to a high level discrete. These may be ideal for some, but it's not the clear sound I'm looking for.
> ...


Regarding the SA100 opamp. You don't actually need to plug the ground wire. But if you want, you can plug into screw hole with the screws. Or you can use grounding amplifier with it.


----------



## Onik

Is the C3 ref a good match for LCD-3/4?


----------



## SCBob

Dramlin said:


> I've continued my journey in trying more Op amps. Here's some brief thoughts on each of them:
> 
> 
> *Staccato*: The Staccato's are a little on the warm side, not to the extent of the V6 Vivids but close. Bass slam and texture is improved over the V6 Vivids, and there's a little more natural decay on the end of each note. The overall sound is similar to the V6 Classic but with more spatial depth and less overall detail. I really wanted to like these, but the details are too smoothed over. Where the V6 Vivids have clear instruments and great detail, everything tends to blend together a bit on the Staccatos. The overall detail is closer to a really good IC op amp as opposed to a high level discrete. These may be ideal for some, but it's not the clear sound I'm looking for.
> ...


How would you characterize the Sonic Imagery Labs 992Enh-Ticha & 994Enh-Ticha in terms of instrument placement? Is the music close to you or more like a concert hall experience? I read your Vivid 6 and Sparkos impressions and am trying to see how the 992 /994 compare to those descriptions. Thanks.


----------



## Dramlin

SCBob said:


> How would you characterize the Sonic Imagery Labs 992Enh-Ticha & 994Enh-Ticha in terms of instrument placement?



I honestly have troubles characterizing the 992/994's as they just sound 'correct' in their placement. The instruments aren't far away, but they aren't close or in your head either. The first thing that I thought after installing them was that my Arya's sounded like a decent quality 5.1 channel surround speaker setup, just missing most of the deep rich tones of a dedicated subwoofer. In that context the instruments are placed similar to what you would hear in a surround setup in a medium sized room. I still slightly prefer the sound of a full surround speaker setup over the Arya's+C3R, but I'm amazed that this setup can get close to that surround speaker sound.

As always the problem with describing audio gear is that your setup will differ from mine. Different headphones, different cables, etc.. The 992/994's are the only op amps I've tried in the C3R that simply sound correct as-is. Since I've installed them they haven't left my C3R, and I have no desire to try any other amps or op amps.


----------



## SCBob

Dramlin said:


> I honestly have troubles characterizing the 992/994's as they just sound 'correct' in their placement. The instruments aren't far away, but they aren't close or in your head either. The first thing that I thought after installing them was that my Arya's sounded like a decent quality 5.1 channel surround speaker setup, just missing most of the deep rich tones of a dedicated subwoofer. In that context the instruments are placed similar to what you would hear in a surround setup in a medium sized room. I still slightly prefer the sound of a full surround speaker setup over the Arya's+C3R, but I'm amazed that this setup can get close to that surround speaker sound.
> 
> As always the problem with describing audio gear is that your setup will differ from mine. Different headphones, different cables, etc.. The 992/994's are the only op amps I've tried in the C3R that simply sound correct as-is. Since I've installed them they haven't left my C3R, and I have no desire to try any other amps or op amps.


With the variety of op amps that you have tried this is high praise! Thank you for your help.  Bob


----------



## hikaru12

Has anyone compared the DAC section of the 3XR to the Yggdrasil? If so, how does it compare? Curious most on bass impact and micro detail. 

I had a Soloist 3X so I’m familiar with the overall sound signature - wide soundstage, forward mids, smooth treble and pretty good bass. Wondering if it’s more of the same.


----------



## EternalChampion

Dramlin said:


> The 992/994's are the only op amps I've tried in the C3R that simply sound correct as-is. Since I've installed them they haven't left my C3R, and I have no desire to try any other amps or op amps.



I'm not in a mood to keep burning-in new op-amps right now as the continuous rolling has shifted my interest towards headphones again, it's been a while, but maybe you are, so I'm throwing it out just in case.

I was caught off guard by this one because two years ago when I really wanted to give them a try with the C3R, user soldering and assembly was required but because I'm not into this kind of stuff, I acted as if the op-amp didn't exist!

It was only recently when I realized that the 2590s are now also sold pre-assembled and fully functional in a DIP-8 package.

https://sparkoslabs.com/product/api-to-dip-adapter/

https://sparkoslabs.com/product/pro-to-dual-dip8-adapter/

Which means....the op-amp crown is in question! 

There's no question about the candidates.  The battle is between the Sonic Imagery 992/994 and the Sparkos 2590.

To my understanding, the final choice will be driven by system synergy and personal taste, nothing else.  Overall sound quality should be on par.

It will be an even tighter fit inside the Conductor  SIL boards measure 25 x 25mm approx. and the Sparkos 28 x 32mm for the single and 35 x 32mm for the dual.  Not exactly sure if and how a full 2590 configuration is achievable inside C3R...But I think it is feasible, even if they are cramped inside the case.  Very interesting to see!

I'll take a break and let the SIL op-amps settle for a while, deal with some new cans and then continue where I left off later this year starting with the Sparkos big cheese, most probably!


----------



## SCBob

EternalChampion said:


> I'm not in a mood to keep burning-in new op-amps right now as the continuous rolling has shifted my interest towards headphones again, it's been a while, but maybe you are, so I'm throwing it out just in case.
> 
> I was caught off guard by this one because two years ago when I really wanted to give them a try with the C3R, user soldering and assembly was required but because I'm not into this kind of stuff, I acted as if the op-amp didn't exist!
> 
> ...



New to op amps and trying some out with the C3R. To burn in op amps does the C3R need to be playing music or is it the same if the C3R is powered on but not playing anything? Thanks.


----------



## EternalChampion

SCBob said:


> New to op amps and trying some out with the C3R. To burn in op amps does the C3R need to be playing music or is it the same if the C3R is powered on but not playing anything? Thanks.



I'm not an expert to answer, but I always burn-in electronics with music by assigning Foobar a 50-track playlist loop.  The results are always great.


----------



## Dramlin

EternalChampion said:


> I'm not in a mood to keep burning-in new op-amps right now as the continuous rolling has shifted my interest towards headphones again, it's been a while, but maybe you are, so I'm throwing it out just in case.



I'll defer to someone else to try this one. I looked into the 2590 initially, but the overall size put me off. I couldn't see a great way of installing the op amps into the case without touching the case or other internal parts. I'd accept the challenge to try and make them fit, but I'm completely content with the 992/994's. So much so that I think the bottleneck in my system now is my Hifiman Arya's. I'm happy enough with the headphones to not be looking to replace them though, so for the forseeable future I'm retired from changing my audio gear


----------



## Onik (Feb 19, 2022)

I'm not enjoying the C3 REF even after op amp rolling V6/Sparkos/Orange OPA.

Have feeling the stock SMPSU 24V, 3A is not able to power the Amp properly, and the op amps are not getting enough current that is required to work properly.

I used HD650/ATH-R70X, AKG K702, BEYERDYNAMIC T1, HD800S and all HP were powered properly but I couldn't enjoy the sound no matter what HP I try.

Something not right with this amp ❕ first of all Its not Smooth sounding amp even if you have Laid Back HP like HD650 , and sounds bad at high Volume, sounds like its trying to sound good but it don't.

Not the right amp for Rock/Metal or Heavy sounding music, so I thought using Orange discrete Op amps it might make things better but nope!

Also this amps distortion level is really high compared to my other Amps like Burson Playmate( my fav).

My last Option is to try Linear PSU and if it still doesn't sound good I'll sell this pricey Amp for cheaper price to get rid of it.


----------



## SCBob

I've not seen a post like yours about the  C3R. Is this a unit that you bought new?


----------



## Onik

SCBob said:


> I've not seen a post like yours about the  C3R. Is this a unit that you bought new?


No I bought it used.


----------



## EternalChampion

EternalChampion said:


>



The picture that you see above is not backed by the newest manual (v1.6) for the C3.

Burson has now grouped the sockets into "zones".

Same exact op-amps must be used in a zone otherwise your device will be in danger and you lose warranty....


----------



## SCBob

EternalChampion said:


> The picture that you see above is not backed by the newest manual (v1.6) for the C3.
> 
> Burson has now grouped the sockets into "zones".
> 
> Same exact op-amps must be used in a zone otherwise your device will be in danger and you lose warranty....


I could use some advice. I was trying the extensions with the opamps you've pictured. I thought I had all four in properly but when I powered on the amp it started smoking. Powered it off  and took out those opamps and put the 4 Vivids back in. It plays music but has a loud hum. Burson wrote that they can ship me a new motherboard (not on warranty) but I have no clue about can I swap those out. He wrote that it is simply removing screws and reinstalling the new board. Does the whole inside of the unit come out in one piece and then drop in and screw in the new board then reinstall the opamps? Am I missing something? I hate to invest half of what I paid for the unit for a new motherboard and then screw it up. Thanks.


----------



## EternalChampion

SCBob said:


> I could use some advice. I was trying the extensions with the opamps you've pictured. I thought I had all four in properly but when I powered on the amp it started smoking. Powered it off  and took out those opamps and put the 4 Vivids back in. It plays music but has a loud hum. Burson wrote that they can ship me a new motherboard (not on warranty) but I have no clue about can I swap those out. He wrote that it is simply removing screws and reinstalling the new board. Does the whole inside of the unit come out in one piece and then drop in and screw in the new board then reinstall the opamps? Am I missing something? I hate to invest half of what I paid for the unit for a new motherboard and then screw it up. Thanks.



Sorry to hear that.  Are you sure you placed the SIL op-amps in the correct orientation?  V6 provide reverse voltage protection, but the SIL I don't think they do.

Also, did you bend the pins of the extensions a bit for a good grip inside the sockets?  Loose pins is a major issue.

In regards to the PCBs inside I have no clue neither as I didn't have to unscrew anything yet.  If you aren't sure about something just ask them and follow their instructions.


----------



## EternalChampion

Dramlin said:


> I'm still contemplating building a tower of DIP 8 adapters for the 992's to raise them straight up over the 994's, but it will be a very close fit side to side with the duals. If I end up getting around to that, and it works, I'll take a picture of the setup.



I feel like I dodged a disaster  

Out of plain curiosity I said to open the cover and try a stack for one of the 992s with 4 and then 3 extra sockets. 

In both cases, the amp would do one of the following:

1) Not pass the start up check at all.

2) Pass it with delay.

3) Pass the check and then throw occasional spikes at the headphones!

This is like walking on a circus rope with too many connections involved and a wobbly tower being the recipe for disaster.

I apologized both to the amp and the headphones and I promised I will not be doing it again.


----------



## C_Lindbergh

Does any Burson support output selection on the remote?

Im looking for an upgrade from my Topping DX7 pro+ which has both a Screen and remote (including output selection), I don't really wanna loose those 2 awesome features when upgrading to the next level... :/ It's just too convient not having to reach out to the amp everytime you wanna change output/volume.


----------



## Dramlin

The C3R and Playmate 2 have a screen (on the amp), and allow for IR remote control. The features supported by remote control are input selection (Toslink, coax, bluetooth, etc..), volume up/down, and mute.


----------



## Aetherhole

I'm curious if anyone has had experience with the Burson Super Charger.  And can anyone tell me if there's a difference sonically between the 3A and the 5A if used with the Conductor 3XR?


----------



## Onik

I have now different opinion about C3 REF.

The built in DAC(ESS/CRAP) is the real reason it was sounding harsh to my ears.

Once I tried the C3 ref with my DAP/KANN ALPHA this AMP sounds Damn GOOD!

It even sounds better than my Woo Audio WA2.


Currently my OP AMPS Installed:

V6 Vivids Single( Buffer Stage )

Sparkos SS3602( I/V Stage )


Right now I'm 100% positive that the ESS built in Dac inside C3 ref is crap, but once fed in the right input source this Amp sounds sweet like honey 🍯


----------



## Dramlin

Glad you found a sound you enjoy! I personally really like the DAC. With the 992/994 op amps the C3R is better than any other DAC/AMP I've ever encountered. That's always the trouble with headphone gear though. Everyone not only has different equipment in their setup that alters the sound, but also a different expectation of what sounds nice to them. To each their own ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


----------



## SnooDucksAudio

Onik said:


> I have now different opinion about C3 REF.
> 
> The built in DAC(ESS/CRAP) is the real reason it was sounding harsh to my ears.
> 
> ...


You are right in saying ESS DACs are crap. They are. But Burson have no choice but to use them. Unlike AKM DACs etc, when the DAC is an ESS, it's very easy to manipulate or alter the sound, especially with capacitors and opamps. So from the consumer standpoint, they can hear the difference with the colour of different components they roll with easily.


----------



## Onik (Mar 17, 2022)

I was about to buy RME ADI-2 FS but after seeing this announcement I changed my mind!


the ESS chip was a mistake on C3 REF period! This AMP sounds soo good if you have a better dac.

I dont care if its AKM/ESS/Cirrus Logic/Bull Sh$$.. I only care about the sound, Burson had to think twice before installing the Ess Dac chip init, or dont put built in DAC at all❕


----------



## Slim1970

Onik said:


> I was about to buy RME ADI-2 FS but after seeing this announcement I changed my mind!
> 
> 
> the ESS chip was a mistake on C3 REF period! This AMP sounds soo good if you have a better dac.
> ...



So glad I got my RME with the AKM DAC chip. It’s a much more musical DAC chip.


----------



## Onik (Mar 18, 2022)

Slim1970 said:


> So glad I got my RME with the AKM DAC chip. It’s a much more musical DAC chip.


Good to know, I also wanna get one asp, When and Where you bought it from?


----------



## Slim1970 (Mar 18, 2022)

Onik said:


> Good to know, I also wanna get one asp, When and Where you bought it from?


I got mine from Sweetwater Sound. At couple of weeks ago. It was a demo.


----------



## EternalChampion

Slim1970 said:


> So glad I got my RME with the AKM DAC chip. It’s a much more musical DAC chip.




A while ago I bought the SoundBlaster Z for its Cirrus logic converter to see what's the case with that dac chip.  The sound felt almost identical to the Sabre...The BurrBrown (STX II) on the other hand has a very small deviation in terms of realism with less glare and a bit more convincing/satisfying presentation with compromises to my ears, but nothing major.  The approach is basically the same with all three.

So how about the AKM then? Does it behave in a radical way, like producing some kind of major shift in instrument/vocal placement or is it just yet another reproduction of the same approach?  

I find the Burson DAC to be musical even though it comes with an ESS chip in it btw.


----------



## Onik

EternalChampion said:


> A while ago I bought the SoundBlaster Z for its Cirrus logic converter to see what's the case with that dac chip.  The sound felt almost identical to the Sabre...The BurrBrown (STX II) on the other hand has a very small deviation in terms of realism with less glare and a bit more convincing/satisfying presentation with compromises to my ears, but nothing major.  The approach is basically the same with all three.
> 
> So how about the AKM then? Does it behave in a radical way, like producing some kind of major shift in instrument/vocal placement or is it just yet another reproduction of the same approach?
> 
> I find the Burson DAC to be musical even though it comes with an ESS chip in it btw.


I find it strange the Play/mate also had ESS chips but it didn't sound harsh to my ears, maybe the ESS chip I have in my c3 ref isn't implemented very well...


----------



## EternalChampion

Onik said:


> I find it strange the Play/mate also had ESS chips but it didn't sound harsh to my ears, maybe the ESS chip I have in my c3 ref isn't implemented very well...



Sincerely, my current audio chain produces ZERO harshness at higher frequencies.  I had some issues until all of the components clocked around a few hundred hours, probably a bit more than that. 

When some of the 35mm extension wires snapped and I had to replace them, the new ones needed about 50 hours before the annoying grain would go away.  Circuits and headphones usually require a lot more than that.  Everything needs its time to settle.


----------



## Kamsang

EternalChampion said:


> I'm not in a mood to keep burning-in new op-amps right now as the continuous rolling has shifted my interest towards headphones again, it's been a while, but maybe you are, so I'm throwing it out just in case.
> 
> I was caught off guard by this one because two years ago when I really wanted to give them a try with the C3R, user soldering and assembly was required but because I'm not into this kind of stuff, I acted as if the op-amp didn't exist!
> 
> ...



hi mate, have you try the 2590 yet?


----------



## EternalChampion

Kamsang said:


> hi mate, have you try the 2590 yet?



Not yet.  I'm still detoxifying myself


----------



## EternalChampion (Jul 15, 2022)

Countdown......






They fit, but not ideally.       

Give me 10 days to experiment with different placements and for proper burn-in.

Initial impression:


----------



## Dramlin

😂 What urged you to suddenly get those? The timing is great, as I'll be doing the same comparison in the next few weeks as well. Well, sort of. I'm just going to start with the singles first.

After nearly a year of enjoying my 992/994 setup I became curious as to what the other op amps sounded like again. I don't have any need to improve on the 992/994 setup, but I am plain curious as to how other things sound again. This time I kept the 994's in the dual slots, but tried the V6 Classics, Vivids, and Staccatos in the single slots. All of them were noticable downgrades to having the 992's. All added unwelcome distortion (less detail, significant blooming), and reduced the sound stage. Looking around, there was only one other legendary discrete that could possibly contend with the 992, and that is the ss2590. Once I'm done with my listening tests on the ss2590 + 994's I'll post them as well. I look forward to your impressions. Perhaps we'll differ on our opinions for once, or maybe not


----------



## EternalChampion (Jul 15, 2022)

Dramlin said:


> 😂 What urged you to suddenly get those?



Like I had said about 5 months ago, my plan was to get them at some point "later" this year.  It just happens randomly without warning.   The "itch" made its appearance a bit earlier than I expected.  



Dramlin said:


> Looking around, there was only one other legendary discrete that could possibly contend with the 992, and that is the ss2590. Perhaps we'll differ on our opinions for once, or maybe not



We will not....Out of the box, man! If this thing gets even cleaner and opens up even more with burn-in (99% certain), I see no contest! It's more clean, more bulky, fuller and very musical....And all that from a cold start!

Chances are I'll be doing some backflips at the yard in 10 days from now.

I wasn't expecting this....


----------



## EternalChampion (Jul 16, 2022)

So this is my configuration.  As you can see, the tricky part is how to deal with the corner dual SS2590.  The placement options are very limited and I think the best one is to allow the op-amp to evenly rest on the two capacitors.  By doing that, you'll have about 2mm of clearance and you are set to go.

One important observation, the temperature.  My advice to everyone is to think twice before you power up C3R with this upgrade (six SS2590 boards) in a hot summer room without having an AC turned on to bring down the room temp or at least a nearby desktop/floor/wall fan blowing at the case.  I wanted to try it like that and see, and within an hour or so I could barely grab the amp tight by its belly.  It felt like an oven!  In such an ambience the lifespan of the components especially the capacitors will be shortened for sure, let alone the risk for a device heart attack.  Also the amp fails to deliver its power (HE6se feels dead).

Just make sure to keep the amp's heat build-up under control.

My early thoughts


----------



## mrjayviper

Thinking of getting a secondhand version of this one (3xr one). feedback? (I've been reading reviews and the QA issues are concerning)

Thanks


----------



## damascato

mrjayviper said:


> Thinking of getting a secondhand version of this one (3xr one). feedback? (I've been reading reviews and the QA issues are concerning)
> 
> Thanks


I have a brand new one, latest revision, for sale. PM me if interested


----------



## mrjayviper

Do these come with their discrete opamps or opamp chips (like those from TI)?

The product page is not very clear on what's included. Thanks


----------



## Dramlin

Comes with 4 discrete Burson V6 Vivids (2 dual + 2 single)


----------



## mrjayviper

Dramlin said:


> Comes with 4 discrete Burson V6 Vivids (2 dual + 2 single)


thanks a lot!


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## Dramlin (Jul 21, 2022)

EternalChampion said:


> So this is my configuration. As you can see, the tricky part is how to deal with the corner dual SS2590. The placement options are very limited and I think the best one is to allow the op-amp to evenly rest on the two capacitors. By doing that, you'll have about 2mm of clearance and you are set to go.



Kudos to you for finding a way to get the SS2590 duals installed! I was looking for a way of installing the SS2590's flat so that they couldn't possibly eventually fall or touch anything else. The singles weren't a problem at all, they install easy. The duals though... after 3 broken extensions I've taken a break from trying to install them. The duals are both too wide to install directly into the board, and too tall to install flat when on extensions. I kept attempting to push the extensions down to make sure the duals wouldn't touch the top of the case, but that would then just break the extension leads. I've got two more strategies that I'll try before giving up though. I'm determined to install the 2590 duals flat/level.

In the meantime, here is what it looks like to have Sonic Imagery 994Enh + Sparkos SS2590 (singles) installed:






The 994's are installed into a few dip 8 sockets to make them easy to install and remove. This also gives space for smaller op amps to be installed directly into the single slots. The 2590's are comfortably below the highest level of the Conductor PCB.





As for the sound difference between the 992/994's and ss2590, I've got some fairly solid opinions but I'm going to hold off on sharing them for now. I'm going to continue trying to install the dual 2590's, and maybe experiment with different combinations. All I will say now is that both the 992/994 & 2590's are top tier, clearly better than all the other op amps I've tried. Both have some tradeoffs while offering a very satisfying sound. Two legendary op amps for sure.


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## EternalChampion

5 more days to go.   The SS2590 has changed a lot for the worse! Now I expect a "resurrection" and then to reach and stabilize at a higher level compared to what it was out of the box.  I'm hoping, we'll see!


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## EternalChampion

Dramlin said:


> Kudos to you for finding a way to get the SS2590 duals installed! I was looking for a way of installing the SS2590's flat so that they couldn't possibly eventually fall or touch anything else.



Assuming that the device is placed on a flat surface, the SS2590 at no more than 90 degrees angle and the extension lead wires have a proper grip inside the socket,  I feel like they will never fall or anything even if I shake the amp. 

A small movement in the base socket for such a heavy op-amp is unavoidable and acceptable as long as the extension pins sit tight.

Up to this point the sound that I'm getting is crystal clear, no weird noises so far.


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## EternalChampion (Jul 25, 2022)

Ok I'm done with the burn-in.  

So this op-amp requires at least 200 hours on the clock in order to expand nicely and reach a near-optimal state.  Keep in mind this before you draw any premature conclusions.  It goes through a transformation cycle and may sound really bad during the burn-in process however in the end it plays much better than brand new, like all the discretes I've put my hands on thus far.

But before I say what I want to say, I have to mention something first.  The Conductor 3 in its default form plus the Supercharger is able to take 95% (I leave room for the tiny boosts from much more expensive gear) out of most if not all entry level cans around 300 Euros.   So don't expect by hooking up an HE400i or the HD650 that you'll be able to hear what the SS2590 can do.  You'll simply waste your money on the op-amp....A headphone of the next step such as the Sony Z7 at €600 *greatly benefits* from the improved signal generated by the Sonic Imagery 992/994, but not so from the even better SS2590!  The HE6se is a different story though...What I'm hearing through the Sparkos is not comparable to SIL and of course to any other op-amp in my possession.

All that was needed was to switch just once between 4 x SS2590 and 4 x SIL and that was pretty much it.  If I put this upgrade into percentage perspective, the performance boost seems to be very similar if not even higher(!) than what it was when I moved on from the V6 Vivid to the 992/994.   This came as a shock because my thought before buying the SS2590 was like the two would be somewhat on par.  Who would have thought...

In spite of that, going all Sparkos is not ideal! It never was, and most probably it never will with a single op-amp because none in my possession so far has been good enough to pass the checklist and therefore run the signal by itself.  So I always end up mixing op-amps for the most balanced option, and neither this time there will be an exception to the rule it seems...

The 992/994 serve as a complement to the SS2590. Someone may find the tone of the Sparkos too bassy or thick (never congested!) and the Sonic Imagery will dissolve some of that extra juice, however this comes at the expense of clarity because the latter adds noticeable distortion to the signal in contrast to the flawless SS2590 in that regard.

The strong points of the Sparkos op-amp:

1) Crystal clear signal and clarity to die for.  Better understanding of what's happening in the stage.  There's more air.  Perfect (channel) separation.

2) The definition of "effortless" audio.  Totally uncompressed vocals.  Full and enjoyable, but never pushy or piercing.  With the Sonic Imagery, sometimes they are.

Note: Due to the size of the music with the SS2590, bass and some instruments in the mids may give you a slight unwanted pressure occasionally at higher volume.  Well I guess we can't have everything!

3) Very energetic and imposing!  Gives a closer look into the music.  It feels more "stereo" than SIL.

4)  Very warm and musical.  The 992/994 grasps the emotion too, but it does that in a more sterile, noisy and at sometimes slightly fatiguing way.

5) Extraordinary bass.  Man...😲 The sub-bass follows the route of a sub-woofer!  Not quite a sub-woofer but it feels like it at times! When all 4 op-amps are installed, it's one hell of an experience I tell you.

The strong point of SIL 992/994:

It's more tonally even.  Things that happen at the higher frequencies are more prominent with a tad extra texture and substance.  There's more bite and vibrance in violins and vocals for instance which is the weak spot of the SS2590 in my opinion.  In some cases it feels overly soft in comparison. That's the most powerful card of the SIL, but unfortunately within that realism, distortion coexists...Still, the Sonic Imagery 992/994 are easily the 2nd best op-amp that money can buy right now and the two 992s will be going permanently into their sockets as a companion to the SS2590. 

Anyways, that's my subjective view on the Sparkos SS2590.  You will hear what I hear only if you happen to have the same audio chain and ears as mine.   Perhaps a cable that thickens the sound might give you a bad result with this op-amp, but then again a headphone at the other end that does the opposite may form a good balance.  I don't know.   But on my Conductor 3 Reference, the jury has unanimously  declared the Sparkos SS2590 as the King of the op-amp world.

Hope I gave you a good insight with this


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## Dramlin (Aug 16, 2022)

I've spent the last few weeks testing to see if the Sparkos SS2590's are an upgrade in the Conductor 3 Reference (C3R). So this entire post will be about my opinions on how the SS2590's compare to other op amps. This will be a bit long winded but to those that actually care about the specifics of how the SS2590 sounds then all information _may _be useful to you. To those that just want to know the outcome of the testing, here is my recommended setup in the Conductor 3 Reference:

**Singles (LP stage)* = Sparkos SS2590 (35mm Burson Extension Leads Required)
**Duals (I/V stage)*  =  Sonic Imagery Labs 994Enh

_*__Edited as my recommendation has changed. See a few posts down._

*C3R Digital Filter*  =  LP FAST

The digital filter is important. I typically use AP Fast but going to LP Fast was critical to getting the right sound with this op amp combo. How I came to this conclusion is below for those that are interested.

*Background:*
Up to this point I've tried close to 60 different op amps, and for the last year or so I've been using the SIL 992Enh & 994ENh's in the Conductor 3 Reference. The 992/994's offer a crystal clear sound with a surround speaker like sound stage. In previous testing I found the 992/994's were a a few technical levels above the next best discretes. I was quite happy using the 992/994's, but a few weeks back I was listening to a lower quality amp and was enjoying some bass heavy music. In that time I started to wonder why my C3R didn't put out the same quality & quantity of bass as a less refined amp, and that put me down the rabbit hole again of trying op amps to get more out of the C3R.

First I tried all of the other great discretes in combination with a 992 or 994: V6 Vivid, V6 Classic, Sparkos 3601/3602, and Staccatos. Some of the op amps like the V6 Vivid gave me that added richness & bass I was looking for, but all were such a significant drop in detail and sound stage that the overall sound was a downgrade to the 992+994 setup. In looking around about the only other op amp I could find that may be able to compete with the 992+994's is the Sparkos SS2590's. I decided to start with the Single 2590's to see how they were, and then when I heard the singles I immediately got the dual 2590's to try as well. Here's the testing starting with my original setup:

*Op Amp Testing:*
Sonic Imagery Labs 992Enh (Single) and 994Enh (Dual)
Sounds like a 5 speaker surround setup minus the subwoofer. Exceptionally clear and detailed, but also on a bit on the thin side. Lacks fullness and deep bass. Performs Technically better than every other op amp I've tried except for the SS2590's (more on that below..). In the pursuit of more bass & fullness, more op amp testing was needed. 

Sparkos SS2590 (Single) and SIL 994's (Dual)
The surround speaker like sound stage of the 992/994's is gone (boo..), but the sound stage is still correct. It's just more stereo now instead of surround. Detail is significantly improved, textures are improved, the sound is fuller, bass is improved in both quantity and quality. Overall the sound is improved in a noticeable and impactful way. It's obvious that the Sparkos SS2590 performs better technically than the 992/994's. Hearing how much of an improvement there is, I immediately got the Dual SS2590's as I expected to get another big jump in sound quality by going full Sparkos. As is, this setup sounds excellent though.

Sparkos SS2590 (Single) and SS2590 (Dual)
I had some trouble installing the duals here. I tried using right angle dip8 adapters to install the duals flat in a "bull horn" setup and I was successful, but the adapters had a major impact on the sound quality. In the end I used Burson 35mm extensions to install the duals sideways by carefully bending the extensions using soft tip tweezers. As for the sound, going Sparkos was indeed another big jump in detail, richness, texture, and in the width of the sound stage. Sounds didn't have any hint of compression in them, they just extend as far as they are supposed to. Violins, piano, and other instruments sound more life-like than ever. Bass, specifically the sub-bass, hits harder and cleaner than any other amp I've ever tried. Very very satisfying. I immediately thought that this was the optimal setup in the C3R, however over the course of a week I started to notice I wasn't enjoying listening to TV, Games, or Music as much as my previous setup. In the end I concluded there's 3 problems with going full Sparkos:

1) The overall tone is lower than neutral. Voices sound deeper and lower than they should, not just by a little bit either.
2) While the sound stage extends well horizontally, it lacks depth compared to the 992/994's. This makes the sound 'flatter' than you would expect.
3) Treble is lacking. Without enough treble to make a a contrast between the lows & highs, there's less sound engagement even when there's more detail and richness. Or in other words, the sound is boring :/

Given how rich and detailed these op amps are, I tried to make this setup work. Silver headphone cables, rhodium extension cables, different filters. Nothing worked to correct the tone. As great as this setup is technically, it's just not right. So, more op amp rolling was needed to somehow get the detail, bass, fullness, and stage width of the SS2590's, but with a more neutral tone and more treble.

At this point I tested around 15 different combinations of Sparkos SS2590's and other op amps in various configurations. Important to note with all op amp testing is that the sound stage largely comes from the DUAL (I/V) stage, whereas the overall tone and the general sound comes from the SINGLE op amps (LP stage). There's a little give and take across all areas though. In testing I concluded that the only way to get a very high quality sound was to use a combination of the SS2590's and the SIL 992/994's. I did also quite enjoy using the V6 Vivid singles with the Sparkos SS2590 duals, but compared to having a 992/994 in the mix the detail loss was too great. So really the only options were to use the SIL 992+SS2590's or SS2590+994's. Back to testing...

SIL 992 (Singles) and Sparkos SS2590 (Duals)
This takes most of the sound stage of the Sparkos with the overall tone of the SIL 992's. So you get a full wide sound and great detail. This is a clear improvement over the 992+994 setup, basically sounding mostly the same with an extended sound stage and additional detail. The only downside is that since most of the sound comes from the 992's the sound still lacks some fullness, and can be perceived as a bit thin. Depending on your preference and headphones this may be the ideal sound setup for you, but it lacks the fullness I'm looking for in my setup.

Sparkos SS2590 (Singles) and SIL 994 (Duals) ... _again_
Back to just about where we started. Without the SS2590's in the dual slots the sound stage width is reduced a bit, but goes out further in depth. You end up with a kind of sound bubble that you know could extend further if only the SS2590's were in the dual slots, but it's still satisfying. The overall tone is completely neutral, with the fullness & bass being as they should thanks to the SS2590's in the single slots. This is also a clear improvement over the 992+994 setup. The only thing I missed was the extra richness of the full Sparkos setup, and so after trying several more op amp combinations I came back to this one and ended up playing with the digital filters. Going from AP Fast to LP fast did the trick. There was a shift which gave most of the rich detail of the full Sparkos setup and made the entire sound more robust.

So in conclusion the SS2590+994's is the clear winner to me. _(Edited, see a few posts below for a better recommendation..)_


If anyone finds any other op amps that can potentially compete with the SIL 992/994 or Sparkos SS2590's in the future, let me know.


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## Slim1970

Dramlin said:


> I've spent the last few weeks testing to see if the Sparkos SS2590's are an upgrade in the Conductor 3 Reference (C3R). So this entire post will be about my opinions on how the SS2590's compare to other op amps. This will be a bit long winded but to those that actually care about the specifics of how the SS2590 sounds then all information _may _be useful to you. To those that just want to know the outcome of the testing, here is my recommended setup in the Conductor 3 Reference:
> 
> *Singles (LP stage)* = Sparkos SS2590 (35mm Burson Extension Leads Required)
> *Duals (I/V stage)*  =  Sonic Imagery Labs 994Enh
> ...


Great write up!


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## EternalChampion (Aug 11, 2022)

Dramlin said:


> 3) *Treble is lacking*. Without enough treble to make a a contrast between the lows & highs, there's less sound engagement even when there's more detail and richness. Or in other words, the sound is boring :/



You shook my head.  😵‍💫 , thank you! I forgot to mention in my review that the SS2590 treble at the very top is more bright than on SIL and that it could be perceived as piercing by some depending on the setup and ear sensitivity.   This becomes very accentuated when all 4 op-amps are in place and it feels much smoother when the 992s take their spot.

But yeah, the treble in lower registers is definitely lacking.  The so called "bite" and "substance" I was talking about.  No wonder the pitch with the 992/994 feels more correct and natural.

So the SS2590 makes a contrast, but the wrong one: warm sound with very energized high treble.

I wish I had the means to sit at a lab bench, fix its minor flaws and inject a bit more soul into it. 😒 That would be the first op-amp to obtain the "godlike" status by me.

Its slam, clarity and overall presentation though is very addictive.



Dramlin said:


> So in conclusion the SS2590+994's This is the clear winner to me.



I spent the whole night trying combos and filters.   4 x SS2590 + MP_SLOW is better but still meh....Also,  your chosen configuration with the 994s in I/V, thus eliminating four SS2590 boards from the mix will produce a very serious compromise to my ears.   

2 x Sparkos Dual + 2 x 992 on default AP_FAST is as good as it gets with the HE6se.  Nice tonal balance with the least compromises.


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## Dramlin

Very nice! Yes, so we've got two differing but similar opinions now, both correct for us, and both of which are a mix of SS2590 & 992/994 just with different orders and filters. As far as I know we may be the only two people that have ever done a written comparison on the 992/994 and SS2590's, so more people need to join in on the fun here 

One thing I neglected to write earlier is that this improved sound is really only possible because the C3R allows us to switch the op amps. The C3R is truly an amazing headphone amp, especially when you hear how much of a difference changing the op amps can make. Also worthy of mention is the Burson 35MM extensions, as without those being available these larger op amps couldn't be attempted. I mentioned briefly that I was able to install the SS2590's using right angle adapters, but the sound quality took a major dive. It's nice having some op amp extensions on the market that don't degrade the sound quality. Now we just need Burson to come out with the V7's to compete with the 992/994/SS2590's.....


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## Dramlin

In the spirit of (hopefully) helping others I'm going to freely admit... *I was wrong*. I previously posted my impressions on the SS2590. All of the info in that post is correct and still stands, except for my end conclusion. 

Quickly summarizing the issue, I did a bunch of testing and found that the best sound in my setup is a combination of using the SS2590 & SIL 992/994 op amps. Using any other op amps is a significant downgrade in multiple areas. When I tested using 992 singles with SS2590 duals the sound stage is perfect with excellent detail, but the treble is sharp, the sound is a little thin, and there is a lack of dynamics. For that reason I disregarded that setup and went with SS2590 singles with 994 duals. Using 994 duals the sound stage decreases but there's improvement in the fullness of the sound and any harsh treble is fixed. it's not perfect, but the SS2590+994 was the better compromise, _or so I thought_.

After about two weeks of using the SS2590+994 setup I began to _really _miss the extended sound stage of the SS2590 duals. I'm a sucker for sound stage with proper placement, and sound stage is largely dictated by the I/V stage (dual slots). There is no op amp I've ever tried that performs better in the I/V stage than the SS2590, so I started testing again to see if I could somehow get the SS2590's to work in the dual slots. Eventually I went back to the 992+SS2590 setup and once again it was thin, sharp, and lacking dynamics. I changed the digital filter from AP Fast to LP Fast and WOW. That did it! It's THE sound. Full sound stage, accurate placement, no compression, all thinness is removed, richness increases, correct tone, bass increases in quality and quantity. The sound transformed from excellent but flawed, to absolutely brilliant just with that digital filter change. It seems I neglected to try out different filters when I originally tried this setup 

So, my updated and final recommendation (for the current op amps on the market) is:

*Singles (LP stage)* =  Sonic Imagery Labs 992Enh (35mm Burson Extension Leads Required)
*Duals (I/V stage)*  =  Sparkos SS2590 (35mm Burson Extension Leads Required)
*C3R Digital Filter*  =  LP FAST

Respect to @EternalChampion for spotting this op amp combo _a lot_ faster than I did, and getting it right the first time . With that, both of us now have the same opinion on the ideal op amps to use in the C3R. We differ only on which digital filter to use, which likely comes down to our different headphones and gain settings. I haven't tested this yet, but I suspect that LP Fast may be ideal for low gain while AP Fast may be ideal for high gain.


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## EternalChampion

Dramlin said:


> Respect to @EternalChampion for spotting this op amp combo _a lot_ faster than I did, and getting it right the first time . With that, both of us now have the same opinion on the ideal op amps to use in the C3R. We differ only on which digital filter to use, which likely comes down to our different headphones and gain settings. I haven't tested this yet, but I suspect that LP Fast may be ideal for low gain while AP Fast may be ideal for high gain.



Three years since I got this device and until this day I've been switching between multiple filters all the time depending on the headphones and tracks.  It just so happens that 70% goes with default AP_FAST because of its superior technicalities, the excellent extension in all directions and the most "3D" soundstage out of the bunch.

LP_FAST sends a very sweet,  low distortion signal to my ears and shares most of the remaining time along with MP_SLOW which I like a lot due to its slightly more closed-in stage presentation that is so much needed at times.

Conductor V2+: Being in a situation like that,  like I was previously, right know that is a total nightmare!  No swappable op-amps to play with sound signatures and take advantage of the superior discretes, no digital filters...yikes!  My entire mindset has changed.


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## Metron (Sep 30, 2022)

Dramlin said:


> In the spirit of (hopefully) helping others I'm going to freely admit... *I was wrong*. I previously posted my impressions on the SS2590. All of the info in that post is correct and still stands, except for my end conclusion.
> 
> Quickly summarizing the issue, I did a bunch of testing and found that the best sound in my setup is a combination of using the SS2590 & SIL 992/994 op amps. Using any other op amps is a significant downgrade in multiple areas. When I tested using 992 singles with SS2590 duals the sound stage is perfect with excellent detail, but the treble is sharp, the sound is a little thin, and there is a lack of dynamics. For that reason I disregarded that setup and went with SS2590 singles with 994 duals. Using 994 duals the sound stage decreases but there's improvement in the fullness of the sound and any harsh treble is fixed. it's not perfect, but the SS2590+994 was the better compromise, _or so I thought_.
> 
> ...


This is very valuable! Big thank you for posting your extended testing results!


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## Dramlin

I don't think I ever posted any pictures of my setup with the Sparkos SS2590 Duals and SI 992 singles. EternalChampion posted some pictures previously, but my install differed by just a little bit. Both install types work fine:










Also, it's been a few months since I went to the configuration above. I haven't ever had a single thought that there is _anything _wrong with any aspect of the sound. There's always the chance that there is something better out there, but this sounds about as pure as I can want. I hope Burson takes note of this configuration so they can design the V7's to deliver this type of quality from a stock configuration in the Conductor 4 Reference. They've got the amp design down wonderfully, just need to refine their V6's to match the above op amp combo.


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## EternalChampion (Wednesday at 2:41 PM)

Dramlin said:


> I don't think I ever posted any pictures of my setup with the Sparkos SS2590 Duals and SI 992 singles. EternalChampion posted some pictures previously, but my install differed by just a little bit.



Now it differs by a little bit more.  













The available information on this board related to the new single-ended Burson flagship and its op-amp situation in general (there's not even a manual yet!) is essentially non-existent.  I'm not going to derail this thread with off-topic content....I just want to assure whoever might be considering upgrading from C3R to the C3 GT that the op-amps are identical, 2 x dual + 2 x single, and that despite having the Noctua blocking the way in the middle it remains flexible enough to accommodate all kinds of op-amp configurations including the most challenging one with four SS2590s, with the help of some dip-8 sockets and lead wires.

About the Burson lead wires: It is always a good idea to run the signal without'em if you can in order to cancel the very small, yet perceivable amount of noise that they introduce.  They will also shift the sound profile by a little bit, so better use two of these for the single sockets or none to avoid the slight channel variation. 

Enjoy your gear


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## Dramlin

That's awesome, congrats! Invaluable info on the op amps too. Hope you are enjoying the upgrade. I can't even imagine the C3R sounding better, so the GT must be something truly special.


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## EternalChampion

Dramlin said:


> That's awesome, congrats! Invaluable info on the op amps too. Hope you are enjoying the upgrade. I can't even imagine the C3R sounding better, so the GT must be something truly special.



I have an entirely new audio chain on burn-in (cable, GT/V6, SC 5A) minus the headphone.   It will be done in about a week.

I tried the op-amps to see what's going on with the installation but did not listen that much.  It wouldn't make any sense afterall.

As cold as it is out of the box, it feels to be a significant step ahead of C3R even more so when I turn the volume knob all the way up to 95% (3000mW vs 6000mW into 50 ohms at that volume approx.), holy smoke!  The 6se will dive into the music just like that.  The vocals on this headphone are nothing less than spectacular.

And...surprise surprise, in spite of that, the drivers don't seem to be stressed at all.... The definition of "insatiable" I guess.

My early impressions suggest less dependency on the Supercharger as well.   It's way too early to assess anything though.  We'll see after burn-in.


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