# MICROZOTL2 Tube Headphone Amp and preamp:  a breakthrough device



## drbluenewmexico

REBIRTH OF A MAGIC HEADPHONE AMPLIFIER and its even better!
  


> MICROZOTL 2: A spectacular  rebirth of a magic tube  headphone reference amplifier
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Geared4me

But what we really want to know is, do you like it? Sorry, couldn't resist. I am a fan of David Berning's designs and this review couldn't have come at a better time. I have recently sold off all of my mid-fi head amps in order to buy one "end game" amp, I realize this may be wishful thinking but I am optimistic. Everything about this amp is just what I am looking for, the only thing giving me pause is the fact that it is single ended only.


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## kiertijai

Can it also drive sensitive IEM without hiss?


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## wuwhere

Been a fan of David Berning since I had the chance to audition a TF-12 preamp. Hope it gets a good review here.


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## drbluenewmexico

geared4me said:


> But what we really want to know is, do you like it? Sorry, couldn't resist. I am a fan of David Berning's designs and this review couldn't have come at a better time. I have recently sold off all of my mid-fi head amps in order to buy one "end game" amp, I realize this may be wishful thinking but I am optimistic. Everything about this amp is just what I am looking for, the only thing giving me pause is the fact that it is single ended only.


 

 I have a pretty big array of headphone amps too, and some of them were "state of the art" and expensive when i bought them.
 Since the MZotl2 arrived in my house, its the only one that i listen to! including the MicroZotl1, which was very excellent, but the
 new edition blows it away with increased dynamics, soundstage,  lower noise floor and preamp convenience output to drive powered
 speakers  it also has speaker terminals for banana plugged speakers, but i haven't used those yet. The original MicroZotal drove
 my Zu Audio Soul Superbly towers to musically satisfying level,s all on one watt of very pure power with great dynamic swing! The
 new version is the same Zotl topography but with an external power supply and upgraded Russian tubes and some cosmetic changes
 that are very attractive. If you are a fan of the David Berning sound, check this one out for sure!


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## doctorjazz

Great review, Blue! As you know, I just received a review sample as well, I'm burning it in at present, but it does have a really nice sound (been listening to the Hifiman HE 1000 exclusively since it came, as it came around the same time, but it is also in the burn in phase). Nicely built, pretty looking (in a component way), enjoying mine so far.


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## kiertijai

I can't resist so I just ordered the microzotl2.
  
 Hope that it has balanced headphone out but it already has other function that I would like to have
 including the preamplifier and speaker post function.
  
 I think I can use the speaker post to drive those difficult headphones that needs balanced out e.g.
 Abyss AB1266, HE6.  Also hope that speaker post output is enough to drive AK1000 and new
 Jecklin Float QA and TakeT H2+
  
 I will have Cavalli Liquid Carbon to compare too, should be around the end of August
  
 I will use my Tungsol 6SN7 Black glass round plate , hope that it will be perfect match to the microzotl2


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## doctorjazz

It doesn't have balanced out, only single ended regular headphone output.Haven't tried the speaker taps, but I'd guess it still had 1W out whichever output you use, would need very sensitive speakers. I did try it with my new acs Encore ciem, there was at some noticeable hiss when no music played, but didn't bother me once music started. I'm also getting an LC, also curious how they compare.


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## bmichels

is the microzotl*2* available to the "public" ?  Is it not advertise on David berning's site: http://davidberning.com/products !? only the original  microzotl ?


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## saidentary

drbluenewmexico said:


> REBIRTH OF A MAGIC HEADPHONE AMPLIFIER and its even better!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
As a fellow microZOTL2 owner, please allow me the high privilege of providing a resounding *AMEN* to your eloquent statements.  I TOTL-ly agree!!!  I'm just giddy about how the HE-1000s sound through this miraculous, magical little piece of heaven of an amplifier.


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## richard51

what an excentric,original,furiously enthousiastic,intriguing,magnificently sincere review....I prefer sometimes that heartfelt shout to only  analytic impressions...you are convincingly dangerous for my financial budget.... but i am sold and i hope that this product will be available in one year from now....I cannat afford it now....


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## kiertijai

*is the microzotl2 available to the "public" ?  Is it not advertise on David berning's site: http://davidberning.com/products !? only the original  microzotl ?*
  
    It is now available for order. I just don't know how soon they will ship the microzotl2
    I have contacted with David and he directed me to urbanhifi.com (same as mentioned here)
    You can order microzotl2 from this website.


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## Geared4me

Here's the link to the actual sales page: http://www.urbanhifi.com/products/microzotl-brochure/microzotl-brochure


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## doctorjazz

Yup, urbanhifi.com I'd the place to get them!


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## lukeap69

I've read somewhere else that the original microZOTL is light on bass but wonderful in mids and highs. Is this true for the mark 2?


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## doctorjazz

So far, in my 2 days, listening almost exclusively to the HE 1000, have to say, no, bass is strong, in balance, tuneful, no issue at all.


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## lukeap69

doctorjazz said:


> So far, in my 2 days, listening almost exclusively to the HE 1000, have to say, no, bass is strong, in balance, tuneful, no issue at all.


 
 Nice. Thanks. Has anybody heard it with the HD800?


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## saidentary

lukeap69 said:


> I've read somewhere else that the original microZOTL is light on bass but wonderful in mids and highs. Is this true for the mark 2?


 

 No. The bass ROCKS!


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## richard51

For me i had read that the first microzotl was less structured and richly textured in the midrange than some other amp is that true ? or the second version is a great departure from the first in the mid department ?


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## kiertijai

*So far, in my 2 days, listening almost exclusively to the HE 1000, have to say, no, bass is strong, in balance, tuneful, no issue at all*
  
*     *Does you have to use Vegan pad with your HE1000?
  
      I may have the chance to audition HE1000 soon too , hopefully with the microzotl2


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## doctorjazz

richard51 said:


> For me i had read that the first microzotl was less structured and richly textured in the midrange than some other amp is that true ? or the second version is a great departure from the first in the mid department ?




I'm just getting my head around it, just started listening (and my time has been pretty limited), but, from my quick auditions (and my memory of what I read years back when the original Berning amps were released), they don't have the typical "tube" midrange, the rich (or hyper-rich, depending on your perspective), creamy mids, flabby bass, tend to behave a bit more like SS, but keep some of the tube goodness. Some details are in Blue's review, and old Stereophile or TAS would probably go into more detail, my memory is a bit fuzzy. But, that is my impression in my limited time with them, they don't do lush, they do details, open space, but remove a solid state "scrim" for back or a better word, so the open mids have a natural kind of sound. Does that make any sense? I do reserve the right to completely reverse myself as they burn in more and I just have more time to audition them.


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## richard51

doctorjazz said:


> I'm just getting my head around it, just started listening (and my time has been pretty limited), but, from my quick auditions (and my memory of what I read years back when the original Berning amps were released), they don't have the typical "tube" midrange, the rich (or hyper-rich, depending on your perspective), creamy mids, flabby bass, tend to behave a bit more like SS, but keep some of the tube goodness. Some details are in Blue's review, and old Stereophile or TAS would probably go into more detail, my memory is a bit fuzzy. But, that is my impression in my limited time with them, they don't do lush, they do details, open space, but remove a solid state "scrim" for back or a better word, so the open mids have a natural kind of sound. Does that make any sense? I do reserve the right to completely reverse myself as they burn in more and I just have more time to audition them.


 

 thank you.... i think that i understand your impression... the mids are more structured than fluid....or 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




syrupy


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## doctorjazz

There's an openness to space it hat tube gear has, no grain, but presentation is more "accurate", for lack of a Better word. I have to work out how to explain it. At first I was a bit surprised, maybe let down, that it didn't have the "tubey goodness" lush presentations, but vocals have great, in the room presence, stage goes on...
Still getting a handle as I said, could take me a bit to get words to describe it...





richard51 said:


> doctorjazz said:
> 
> 
> > I'm just getting my head around it, just started listening (and my time has been pretty limited), but, from my quick auditions (and my memory of what I read years back when the original Berning amps were released), they don't have the typical "tube" midrange, the rich (or hyper-rich, depending on your perspective), creamy mids, flabby bass, tend to behave a bit more like SS, but keep some of the tube goodness. Some details are in Blue's review, and old Stereophile or TAS would probably go into more detail, my memory is a bit fuzzy. But, that is my impression in my limited time with them, they don't do lush, they do details, open space, but remove a solid state "scrim" for back or a better word, so the open mids have a natural kind of sound. Does that make any sense? I do reserve the right to completely reverse myself as they burn in more and I just have more time to audition them.
> ...


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## drbluenewmexico

kiertijai said:


> *is the microzotl2 available to the "public" ?  Is it not advertise on David berning's site: http://davidberning.com/products !? only the original  microzotl ?*
> 
> It is now available for order. I just don't know how soon they will ship the microzotl2
> I have contacted with David and he directed me to urbanhifi.com (same as mentioned here)
> You can order microzotl2 from this website.


 

 GO TO  www.urbanhifi.com, where the new MicroZotl2 is announced, and contact Mark Schneider the manufacturer/distributer to order.  it is available NOW. ENJOY!


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## drbluenewmexico

doctorjazz said:


> I'm just getting my head around it, just started listening (and my time has been pretty limited), but, from my quick auditions (and my memory of what I read years back when the original Berning amps were released), they don't have the typical "tube" midrange, the rich (or hyper-rich, depending on your perspective), creamy mids, flabby bass, tend to behave a bit more like SS, but keep some of the tube goodness. Some details are in Blue's review, and old Stereophile or TAS would probably go into more detail, my memory is a bit fuzzy. But, that is my impression in my limited time with them, they don't do lush, they do details, open space, but remove a solid state "scrim" for back or a better word, so the open mids have a natural kind of sound. Does that make any sense? I do reserve the right to completely reverse myself as they burn in more and I just have more time to audition them.


 

 This will change as the MicroZotl burns in, with mids becoming more fluid and liquid, but still having detail and dynamics!  at about 200 hours of burn in
 the Zotl begins to really sing!


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## doctorjazz

So far, have burned in since I got it, that would be about 72 hours when I get home tonight...


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## saidentary

drbluenewmexico said:


> This will change as the MicroZotl burns in, with mids becoming more fluid and liquid, but still having detail and dynamics!  at about 200 hours of burn in
> the Zotl begins to really sing!


 

 I believe you, but sheesh, how could it possibly sound any better?  Where's the room for improvement?  I'm _serious_!


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## drbluenewmexico

richard51 said:


> what an excentric,original,furiously enthousiastic,intriguing,magnificently sincere review....I prefer sometimes that heartfelt shout to only  analytic impressions...you are convincingly dangerous for my financial budget.... but i am sold and i hope that this product will be available in one year from now....I cannat afford it now....


 

 thanks richard51 for your comments re my review of the MicroZotl2. i appreciate your appreciation and i agree the availability of this special headphone amp is a danger to the wallets of audiophiles everywhere!  however, in terms of value the price for it is quite fair, if not understated!  hope in a year you can dive into one! best wishes!


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## drbluenewmexico

saidentary said:


> I believe you, but sheesh, how could it possibly sound any better?  Where's the room for improvement?  I'm _serious_!


 

 the improvements with more and more burn in (up to about 400 hours) are subtle but you continue to get
 more dynamics, better tone quality, and wider sound stage! and most of all, more fluidity....and PRAT!
 Super improvements are also due to improvement of cable quality from attached gear, quality of DAC being used, quality of your sound files, etc in other words the whole chain of sound leading into the MicroZotl 2!. At some point in that process of
course the goal is to stop listening to the gear and just surrender to the music!


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## drbluenewmexico

lukeap69 said:


> I've read somewhere else that the original microZOTL is light on bass but wonderful in mids and highs. Is this true for the mark 2?


 

 i have the original, un tweaked, and a demo unit of the new MicroZotl. the Mark 2 has more bass impact, dynamics increased in general
 and lower noise floor with the external power supply.  The Russian tubes make the 2 sound richer and add more texture.
 The original is lovely sounding and has great sound, adequate bass, etc.  the new model is off the charts, causing
 WOW reactions in first time listeners, who close their eyes and start moving in place to rythmnic music...
 having a preamp out on the new model is a big plus also...


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## drbluenewmexico

doctorjazz said:


> So far, have burned in since I got it, that would be about 72 hours when I get home tonight...


 

 ha, teasing yourself Doctorjazz...bet you can't not peek in on the sound quality tonight...
 waiting till its 100 hrs burned in would require great sacrifice and delay of gratification..
 GO FOR IT!


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## saidentary

drbluenewmexico said:


> ............................
> The original is lovely sounding and has great sound, adequate bass, etc.  the new model is off the charts, causing
> WOW reactions in first time listeners, who close their eyes and start moving in place to rythmnic music...
> ................................................


 
 I can attest to the WOW reaction as someone who was a first time listener two days ago.  My reaction within a few seconds of listening was to say "Oh my (GOSH)!!!" except I didn't say "GOSH".......
  
 I then called Mark Schneider to gush about this little miracle.  On a Saturday.  *Twice.* 
  
 Just changed my avatar to the MicroZOTL2....


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## drbluenewmexico

saidentary said:


> I can attest to the WOW reaction as someone who was a first time listener two days ago.  My reaction within a few seconds of listening was to say "Oh my (GOSH)!!!" except I didn't say "GOSH".......
> 
> I then called Mark Schneider to gush about this little miracle.  On a Saturday.  *Twice.*
> 
> Just changed my avatar to the MicroZOTL2....


 

 Heres a new WOW with the MicroZotl2:  just plugged in the Venture Electronics Zen,
 a 320 ohm new earbud design from China thats on tour. They sounded good out of
 my HTC One M9 but out of the Zotl they rocked like full size headphones, best bass
 and mids I've ever heard in an earbud.  highs were sparkling too, with shimmering symbols
 on Tidal blues tracks....no hiss at low or high gain settings.  so you can use the Zotl
 with earbuds with high resistance.


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## richard51

i have read all that there is to read on the internet about david Berning and the zotl and microzotl....
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I dont understand that there is only unanimous praise and often totally extraordinary praise and there is not much interest here on headfi.... The technology developed by Berning is apparently the more originally profund transformation of the tube amp technology.... why nobody care ? why all praise for all ordinary stuff  of the big names? all amp around 1000 dollars sounded good .... they are not revolutionary though..... why  this silence on head fi? i dont understand....here a word about anything create interest instantaneously....all in all i know that my next amp wll be a zotl....For the moment i enjoy my garage 1217 Ember....For the price a marvel....i search for a future real upgrade ....the microZOTL 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




will be it.... thanks to drbluenewmexico for his great voice about Berning


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## saidentary

richard51 said:


> i have read all that there is to read on the internet about david Berning and the zotl and microzotl....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I THEORIZE that several factors account for the relative lack of discussion:
 1. The original microZOTL has been out of production for a long time.  Finding one is almost a lost cause.  They're so good that the owners generally stopped looking after getting one and they were generally reluctant to sell unless they were moving out of headphones or out of audio altogether.  If they were sold, they often brought more than the original retail price.
 2. The original microZOTL wasn't heavily advertised.
 3. The microZOTL is labor intensive to make because of all the custom and unique circuitry.  That's a big part of the reason Dave Berning stopped making them a few years ago.
 4. The external appearance is underwhelming.  This is true also for the new MicroZOTL 2.  It doesn't LOOK impressive and some folks shop with their eyes.
 5. Mark Scheider hasn't been publicizing these very much.  (He won't have to.)  There's been no big fanfare about these. 
 6. Because most people won't sell theirs, they haven't "circulated" through a bunch of owners who then can tell others about them. 
  
 But make no mistake: David Berning is one of the few legitimate heavyweights in audio. 
  
 The microZOTL 2 hasn't been talked about very much on this site--YET.  Just wait.  This is a sharp crowd.  They'll figure this one out for sure.  This thing is the real deal--||_end of game_||_done looking for amps_||--kind of amplifier.


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## richard51

i appreciated your remarks.....i think you are very right about all that...... i will  add that David Berning is not an engineer.... he is a physicist who works all his life on physical measure apparatus for the government hence his idea are fundamental redesigning of tube amplification  and not cosmetics innovation or interesting variations... like  virtually all  amplifier companies....Hence i had concluded that for thousand bucks his microzotl must be one of the best  amp in the world .... i will certainly purchase one.... but not before alas!  15 months....I hope this amp will be there...i cross my fingers


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## doctorjazz

I am seeing a bit of interest stirring on the HE-1000 thread, Blue's review should generate more interest. Have my HE 1K on, Pono into ZOTL, man, does it sound great (Parade by Kevin Morby, if you must know, still on burn in shuffle). Have to be really careful evaluating these, though...feed them tracks that are less than pristine, source that's not so great, the sound that congress out I'd not so great as well, let's you hear the source the way it really is.


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## richard51

i think that your are right Blue review will stir interests and the impressions i had read about microzotl in the hifiman he 1000 thread stirred my attention in the beginning....it was you and Saidentary


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## saidentary

richard51 said:


> i think that your are right Bluereview will stir interest and the impression i had read about microzotl in the hifiman he 1000 thread stir my attention in the beginning....it was you and Saidentary


 

 Credit for my discovery goes squarely to *doctorjazz*.  As soon as he said he had a MicroZOTL, I was intrigued.  I thought somehow he'd managed to snag a USED one, of the original version.  That would have been a significant feat in and of itself.  It was wishful thinking when I asked him "are there any more of them?"  I was *thrilled *when he said they were back in production with an updated version.  I ordered one immediately. 
  
 Then when I got it, with the spec at one watt only, and no balanced out, and picking it up it was so damn light.....I sort of thought I had made a stupid move....how was it going to possibly drive these headphones????
  
 Well, um, it DOES.  These headphones ROCK and SING with this amp.  Match made in heaven.  Rare audiophile moment for me.  Thank you *doctorjazz *and thank you *drbluenewmexico!!!*


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## doctorjazz

Blue is definitely the origin of this line of ZOTL attention...he had been raving about the original for years, in fact, he contacted David Berning and convinced him there was enough interest in it to put it back in production (have to interrupt here, live Wilco now from their fine box set through the above rig, heaven...). And here we are.


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## richard51

Praise to all of you.......thanks for your precisions .... i must wait alas! but i will buy one.....


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## saidentary

doctorjazz said:


> Blue is definitely the origin of this line of ZOTL attention...he had been raving about the original for years, in fact, he contacted David Berning and convinced him there was enough interest in it to put it back in production (have to interrupt here, live Wilco now from their fine box set through the above rig, heaven...). And here we are.


 

 Wait.  You're saying that David Berning didn't think there would be enough *interest*?!  WOW!  Good thing for Blue's persuasion!


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## Asr

So a few people already have the amp? If so, I demand (more) pics! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (Would like to see a well-lit off-angle view before I consider buying one, as the photo on the UrbanHiFi site isn't very good with the deep shadows, and saidentary's pic is kinda dark. I'd also like to better see what the external power supply looks like.)
  
 I remember the original MicroZOTL from my earlier days on Head-Fi, glad to see the amp is back!


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## doctorjazz

I'm guessing the amp was out of production BECAUSE there wasn't enough interest (sales) when it was initially released. Of course, at that time, headphones were generally NOT considered real high end, just something you would make due with if you were away from your main rig. (my old Krell KSL/KSA-150 combo didn't even HAVE a headphone jack). It's really since the ascendance of the iPod, then Beats, that portable music has been taken seriously by a large number of people. Blue convinced Berning that the world was now ready for his product.
 Have to go to work, not the best photographer, but I'll try to take some photos and post today or tomorrow.


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## Geared4me

drbluenewmexico said:


> Heres a new WOW with the MicroZotl2:  just plugged in the Venture Electronics Zen,
> a 320 ohm new earbud design from China thats on tour. They sounded good out of
> my HTC One M9 but out of the Zotl they rocked like full size headphones, best bass
> and mids I've ever heard in an earbud.  highs were sparkling too, with shimmering symbols
> ...


 

 I just want to clarify something you said here. Does you MicroZotl2 have high and low gain settings? I ask because I may have read your post wrong but if so, this is a feature that hasn't been listed before.


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## doctorjazz

geared4me said:


> drbluenewmexico said:
> 
> 
> > Heres a new WOW with the MicroZotl2:  just plugged in the Venture Electronics Zen,
> ...




I read the same thing, I have the MicroZOTL, not sure what Blue had in mind, but there isn't a high/low gain setting. Having said that, I also have the Zen, and there is no hiss out of the ZOTL, fell asleep listening to the Zen/ZOTL last night (and, it is a really sweet combo...have to use the adapter, there is only a full size headphone output on the ZOTL). I have to recheck, but I think I tried my recent ciem acquisition, the acs Encore, and if I remember correctly, I did get some hiss with this combo. Have an impedance attenuator (or whatever it's called) somewhere, but not sure where the cleaning lady "put it away" for me...


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## gurus

Interested. Already had sent David Berning an email on it after reading about it in the HE1000 thread. Just got the reply back. This is indeed good news that he has upgraded the power supply and the cosmetics. Might have to get one.
  
 I had a two box preamp that David hand made for me in the early 80s after I visited him in /near Baltimore. Sounded great (except for some hum, which was very common in tube equipment then) to use with Michaelson & Austin TVA-1 driving the Gale 401s. Sublime.


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## drbluenewmexico

gurus said:


> Interested. Already had sent David Berning an email on it after reading about it in the HE1000 thread. Just got the reply back. This is indeed good news that he has upgraded the power supply and the cosmetics. Might have to get one.
> 
> I had a two box preamp that David hand made for me in the early 80s after I visited him in /near Baltimore. Sounded great (except for some hum, which was very common in tube equipment then) to use with Michaelson & Austin TVA-1 driving the Gale 401s. Sublime.


 

 The tubes are also upgraded in the MicroZotl 2 to advanced Russian tubes. it is a significant upgrade to
 the original MZotl.  the original was brilliant, this one is off the charts...


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## jamato8

I can attest that there are audible changes as the Micro Zotl burns in. I have around 75 hours on mine and it has gone from about the same as my very, very good Richard Marsh DIY amp to even more open and improved imaging. Using my very well used RM amp as a control in the comparison, I can hear the changes with tubes that I have used and also the change in the amp itself. 
  
 The Micro is wonderfully non discriminating to all of the frequency range. It is all there and as a bonus, you get some very good depth and excellent transparency. It seems to pair well with all of the headphones I have. It has an output impedance of 2 ohms, which should not cause a frequency skew on anything that would normally be used with it. I wold love to try my Klipsch speakers with it. They are the original Chorus speakers that are highly modified and throw a huge soundstage. Maybe one day on the speakers. 
  
 Anyway, the amp is a big surprise. I would love though, to have had the tubes exposed. There is no reason not to have them out in the open. They run cooler and the glow of tubes is something I have enjoy most all of my life and now they are back. :^)
  
 So far I have used the stock tubes, which are much better than you normally get with tube equipment as stock, Sylvania 1952 6SN7, Tungsol black glass round plate, RCA 5691 and some other Sylvanias, all in NOS. Also some Sylvania 6201 GB gold pin and some GE 5 star 6201. The driver tubes have more influence on the sound than the 6SN7's but they all change the sound. 
  
 In my amps, home, the Lyr2 with Telefunken tubes is not as good as the Richard Marsh DIY amp, which has more transparency and better imaging with a more 3D presentation and the Zotl Micro betters the RM amp.


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## kiertijai

*So far I have used the stock tubes, which are much better than you normally get with tube equipment as stock, Sylvania 1952 6SN7, Tungsol black glass round plate, RCA 5691 and some other Sylvanias, all in NOS. Also some Sylvania 6201 GB gold pin and some GE 5 star 6201. *
  
     Thanks for your impressions.
  
     Do we have to burn in 24/7
     Have you tried the tube rolling? and what is the result?
  
     I have also ordered the microzotl2 and it should arrive near the end of next week.
     I do have Tungsol 6SN7 BGRP, Sylvania 6SN7 metal base and will try those tubes.
     Can I use the Mullards ECC32 or ECC33 or ECC35?
  
*The driver tubes have more influence on the sound than the 6SN7's but they all change the sound. *

     I do have Mazda/Bellevu 12AT7WA, GEC A2900/B309, Mullard M8162, Valvo Pinched Waist blue label,
 Brimar 6060 Yellow T triple mica to try and am thinking which one should I try first as I don't want to open
 the amplifier several time.


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## doctorjazz

I'm using the ZOTL with the stock tubes, digging the sound, never done much in the way of tube rolling. Actually have a few sitting around that I got once for a tube DA converter (that I actually don't use because it doesn't play nicely with my preamp-not sure which is at fault, but I have other DA converters...). Have 2 small tubes who's box is labeled 6H2N-B (I think, the N may be something else), 2 larger tubes labeled 6H6N-N (the last is a backward N on the box), and I have one loose tube (and a few loose screws...), says OTK 2 (2 in a diamond on it's side), no other markings. Don't remember if these are any good, if they came with the DA or I purchased them, or even how to use them in the ZOTL if I were to want to. And, what tubes would be worth purchasing if I were to tube roll. I should scoot over to the tube thread, I know, will one of these days...
Any thoughts? ZOTL is quite fine as is...


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## gurus

kiertijai said:


> *So far I have used the stock tubes, which are much better than you normally get with tube equipment as stock, Sylvania 1952 6SN7, Tungsol black glass round plate, RCA 5691 and some other Sylvanias, all in NOS. Also some Sylvania 6201 GB gold pin and some GE 5 star 6201.*
> 
> Thanks for your impressions.
> 
> ...



Obviously the Valve are supposed to be the Holy grail. You got quite a collection there.


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## Audio Addict

If anyone is intetested, Urban HIFI is sending a microZOTL to demonstrate at next weekend's Chicago Head-Fi meet. It will be paired with the Puredac and the HiFiMAN HE1000. Stop in to take a listen to this pairing.


----------



## jamato8

I am using some 7N7's now with adapters I made years ago. The 6SN7 equivalent but in a loctal. Hytron tall tubes, most likely made by Sylvania. Excellent foundation. I listened to Beethoven's 9th and now am listening all  over again. Great stuff. Very dynamic and fast, layered and absolutely no compression of the sound or soundstage. Using the HE1000.


----------



## kiertijai

I think VT99/6F8G's can be used too but can the tubes with adapter fit into the microzotl2?
 If it is possible, the Tungsol VT99/6F8G's can be used with excellent result ,
 even the KenRad's or National Union's should be very good and cheaper too
  
  
_*Anyway, the amp is a big surprise. I would love though, to have had the tubes exposed. There is no reason not to have them out in the open. *_
_*They run cooler and the glow of tubes is something I have enjoy most all of my life and now they are back. :^)*_
 I wholeheartedly agree with this and we can use more (cheaper & better) tubes


----------



## doctorjazz

So, tried my new acs Encore ciems again through the ZOTL, want bothered by nose/hum/hiss, and, man, did it have an openness and dimensionality, body to the voice (Laura Cantrell in this case) that was fabulous!


----------



## bmichels

audio addict said:


> If anyone is intetested, Urban HIFI is sending a microZOTL to demonstrate at next weekend's Chicago Head-Fi meet. It will be paired with the Puredac and the HiFiMAN HE1000. Stop in to take a listen to this pairing.




Pardon me but what is the Puredac ? Link or picture please. 

Thanks


----------



## Geared4me

bmichels said:


> Pardon me but what is the Puredac ? Link or picture please.
> 
> Thanks


 

 The BMC Puredac has been quite a hit since its release, in no small part due to its relatively affordable price for a BMC product. http://bmc-audio.de/index.php/PureDAC-EN.html


----------



## bmichels

geared4me said:


> The BMC Puredac has been quite a hit since its release, in no small part due to its relatively affordable price for a BMC product. http://bmc-audio.de/index.php/PureDAC-EN.html




Thanks. 

But... Are we sure that the Microzotl2 will do a better job than the " reference level headphone" that is built Into the BMC ?


----------



## doctorjazz

Sounds like a fine unit, though I just read a review of the Puredac, and it seems overkill with the ZOTL, since it is also preamp and headphone amp.


----------



## Geared4me

bmichels said:


> Thanks.
> 
> But... Are we sure that the Microzotl2 will do a better job than the " reference level headphone" that is built Into the BMC ?


 

 That was my first thought also but then I thought that they must be pretty confident that the MZ2 is better than the BMC Puredac headamp to pair them up like that.


----------



## doctorjazz

The one review I read didn't think the built in headphone amp wad anything great, but you could drive headphones from the balanced outputs (with the proper cables, of course), and it sounded great. Haven't heard it myself, and I'm sure the DA converter out into the ZOTL will sound great...


----------



## Audio Addict

The DAC section of the Puredac is a very good.  The headphone section is good not great in my opinion, at least on the early version I have.  What is really cool about the Puredac  is the analog outputs  (both balanced and single ended) to allow you to go into a different amplifier.  I generally use the balance outputs into my RSA Apache and the RCA outputs to my RSA Raptor.  The Puredac works in all three modes, stand alone, single end and balanced.  
  
 It still falls short of my PS Audio PWD MKII, though from a DAC perspective.


----------



## Audio Addict

Can you run the amp without the plexiglass to allow the use of CV181 like the Black Treasures?


----------



## Audio Addict

audio addict said:


> Can you run the amp without the plexiglass to allow the use of CV181 like the Black Treasures?


 
  
 The opening paragraph of the manual says it all:
  
 WARNING: For safety, the cover of this amplifier should be secured at all times. DC voltages as high as 450V and peak AC voltages as high as 800V are present inside. The service information contained in this manual is intended only for trained service personnel. Furthermore, this amplifier generates radio-frequency energy that can interfere with communications equipment.


----------



## wuwhere

My tube speaker amps are coverless. Helps in cooling the tubes. When I adjust the bias on my tube speaker amp, I have to be really careful.
  


audio addict said:


> The opening paragraph of the manual says it all:
> 
> WARNING: For safety, the cover of this amplifier should be secured at all times. DC voltages as high as 450V and peak AC voltages as high as 800V are present inside. The service information contained in this manual is intended only for trained service personnel. Furthermore, this amplifier generates radio-frequency energy that can interfere with communications equipment.


----------



## drbluenewmexico

audio addict said:


> The DAC section of the Puredac is a very good.  The headphone section is good not great in my opinion, at least on the early version I have.  What is really cool about the Puredac  is the analog outputs  (both balanced and single ended) to allow you to go into a different amplifier.  I generally use the balance outputs into my RSA Apache and the RCA outputs to my RSA Raptor.  The Puredac works in all three modes, stand alone, single end and balanced.
> 
> It still falls short of my PS Audio PWD MKII, though from a DAC perspective.


 

 Im using a Mojo Audio NOS non oversampling DAC designed by Benjamin Zweikel into the MicroZotl.  it pairs extremely well, and yields a superb analogue like sound with gorgeous detail, dynamics and tone.


----------



## doctorjazz

Not technically know knowledgeable in these matters, but I think the OTL part makes it different than your standard tube amp when it comes to handling it (the radio technology may as well, even less sure about that...).


----------



## gurus

I am going to have one by the weekend. Looking forward to trying it out with the a slew of phones at the meet- HE-1000, HD-800, TH900 and the Master1.


----------



## Audio Addict

SN #00012 shipped to me for the meet this weekend.


----------



## Shmuel

Just placed my order, as well!

Could someone please explain what the power output would be for the He1000? 
If I'm understanding the numbers, looks like maybe 1/4 of a watt? Is this right and, if so, does the amp not seem to be underpowered?
Nevertheless, I placed my order based on the great reviews in this forum, not to mention the review based on the combo with the HE1000. 
Thanks!


----------



## saidentary

shmuel said:


> Just placed my order, as well!
> 
> Could someone please explain what the power output would be for the He1000?
> If I'm understanding the numbers, looks like maybe 1/4 of a watt? Is this right and, if so, does the amp not seem to be underpowered?
> ...


 

 I see what you mean when you convert the numbers based on ohms.  I was concerned about that also, and--unlike you--I wasn't astute enough to figure in the HE-1000's impedence.  Duane (dealer who I mention in the conclusion of my HE-1000 review) goes "way back" with David Berning.  Duane told me that Mr. Berning routinely understates the specifications of his products.  *In any case, the short answer is NO, there seems to be PLENTY of power.*  For whatever reason, there seems to be more headroom through the single ended output of the MicroZOTL 2 than there was thru the balanced output (~3.2 Watts) of the Oppo HA-1.   It _*does*_ make a difference how much output voltage the device feeding the MicroZOTL2 has, however (Duane told me that).  With my irDAC, the line output level is "2.2Vrms."  With that, there is PLENTY of headroom on most CDs that I play.


----------



## Shmuel

Thanks for your input. 
I figured there was enough power if you liked the combo so much, just hard to fully understand. 
I'm very much looking forward to receiving the amp, hopefully this week.


----------



## gurus

shmuel said:


> Thanks for your input.
> I figured there was enough power if you liked the combo so much, just hard to fully understand.
> I'm very much looking forward to receiving the amp, hopefully this week.


 

 I believe in OTL amps there is a increase in power as impedance increases . There are some caveats to it though mainly how much current the power supply can provide.


----------



## Shmuel

Gurus, thanks for your input. 

I guess it will become quite clear in just a few days


----------



## jamato8

The MZ2 has plenty of power with the HE1000. I routinely have 1/3 more travel in the volume and if I turn it up towards max, I could use headphones as speakers. Plenty of headroom. 
  
 I leave the plexiglass off. Easier to change out tubes and it runs a little cooler though as I look at the case, it is vented all underneath and back and side so there is plenty of air flow. I have some adapters coming so I can use some VT99 tubes, equivalent to the 6SN7 but in a coke bottle shape with the grid cap. I have 4 varieties, all from the 1940's, round plate, flat and 2 other types. Back to using the 1952 Sylvania 6SN7's and Sylvania GB gold pin 6201. Great separation and more 3D.


----------



## Shmuel

Jamato8,
I look forward to learning about tube rolling with the MZ2 from you and others here. 
Shmuel


----------



## Shmuel

And good to hear another endorsement re: power for the he1k.


----------



## kiertijai

_*I leave the plexiglass off. Easier to change out tubes and it runs a little cooler though as I look at the case, it is vented all underneath and back and side so there is plenty of air flow. I have some adapters coming so I can use some VT99 tubes, equivalent to the 6SN7 but in a coke bottle shape with the grid cap. I have 4 varieties, all from the 1940's, round plate, flat and 2 other types*_
  
_*     *_Happy to hear that we can use Jan VT99/6F8G's may be Tungsol , KenRad, National Union (black glass) coke bottle .   Cheaper but as good as 6SN7's
      Please report your findings as well as the result of those Sylvania's


----------



## jamato8

kiertijai said:


> _*I leave the plexiglass off. Easier to change out tubes and it runs a little cooler though as I look at the case, it is vented all underneath and back and side so there is plenty of air flow. I have some adapters coming so I can use some VT99 tubes, equivalent to the 6SN7 but in a coke bottle shape with the grid cap. I have 4 varieties, all from the 1940's, round plate, flat and 2 other types*_
> 
> _*     *_Happy to hear that we can use Jan VT99/6F8G's may be Tungsol , KenRad, National Union (black glass) coke bottle .   Cheaper but as good as 6SN7's
> Please report your findings as well as the result of those Sylvania's


 

 They aren't cheaper any longer. They used to be a great buy. Now, too expensive. In general they aren't really better than a good 6SN7 and often a good 6SN7 can now be bought for less money. They look cool though. :^)


----------



## kiertijai

_*They aren't cheaper any longer. They used to be a great buy. Now, too expensive. In general they aren't really better than a good 6SN7 *_
_*and often a good 6SN7 can now be bought for less money. They look cool though. :^)*_
  
*    *Sad to hear that.  Things has changed rapidly.
     I am fortunate as I had purchased some of those after I followed the thread 6SN7 here.  Stavros recommended about Jan VT99/6F8G Tungsol coke
 bottle, black glass which I think close to Tungsol BGRP but may be half the price.   The price of Tungsol 6SU7GTY has gone up too. This one is also
 very good but may not be compatible with Microzotl2


----------



## jamato8

kiertijai said:


> _*They aren't cheaper any longer. They used to be a great buy. Now, too expensive. In general they aren't really better than a good 6SN7 *_
> _*and often a good 6SN7 can now be bought for less money. They look cool though. :^)*_
> 
> *    *Sad to hear that.  Things has changed rapidly.
> ...


 

 No, the 6SU7 is a Tung-sol black glass 6SL7 most of the time with very closely matched triode sections. I have a box full of these in NOS, maybe 25 pairs or so. Yep, a great tube and I used to use it in a nice amp so I got them when they were a very good price.


----------



## Audio Addict

I talked with Mark today and he did indicate he would consider creating a replacement plexiglass top with cutouts above the tubes so larger tubes such as the CV181 could be used with the top on to avoid the risk of using it with the top remove, if there was enough femand. He did not mention the price though.


----------



## kiertijai

_*I talked with Mark today and he did indicate he would consider creating a replacement plexiglass top with cutouts above the tubes so larger tubes such as the CV181 could be used with the top on to avoid the risk of using it with the top remove, if there was enough femand. He did not mention the price though.*_
  
_*    *_So it means that we can use CV181, I don't think it is direct replacement for 6SN7's. That's good news with the replacement plexiglass top .
 Please make the replacement top that we can use the VT99 with the adapters too.
  
     How's about the CV2821, can we use these tubes too?  and we don't need the replacement top for this one


----------



## Audio Addict

kiertijai said:


> _*I talked with Mark today and he did indicate he would consider creating a replacement plexiglass top with cutouts above the tubes so larger tubes such as the CV181 could be used with the top on to avoid the risk of using it with the top remove, if there was enough femand. He did not mention the price though.*_
> 
> _*    *_So it means that we can use CV181, I don't think it is direct replacement for 6SN7's. That's good news with the replacement plexiglass top .
> Please make the replacement top that we can use the VT99 with the adapters too.
> ...


 
  
 Mark didn't really talked about what tubes worked or didn't as his comment was try it the way it is before starting to tube roll.  I just was asking about a different top as if I went down this path, I have a couple pairs of the Treasure Black Glass from Grant Fideiity and I don't want to try them without the top on the unit.


----------



## jamato8

I got some CV4024, a 12AT7. Excellent sound. Extremely natural and seems to put all the notes in the right place. Male and female voice is portrayed very well. Slightly warmer sounding compared to the Sylvania Gold Brand gold pin but not tube warm, just very full and transparent so the slightly warmer sound doesn't mask this. 
  
 edit: I just put in some Tung-sol tall glass slanted plates, 6SN7GTB. In this setup it is excellent. A little more distance from the sound and the imaging is excellent with a wide soundstage and good layering with space between everything.


----------



## jamato8

Running some nice CV4024 to  VT99/6F8G now. Very nice. Very 3D. 
  
 Listening to some Vivaldi, 4 Seasons, Cho-Liang Lin, which I have heard too many times but frankly it is so good with this combo I can't stop listening. DSD to the Hugo, Micro to the HE1000. What a combination.


----------



## Audio Addict

jamato8 said:


> Running some nice CV4024 to  VT99/6F8G now. Very nice. Very 3D.
> 
> Listening to some Vivaldi, 4 Seasons, Cho-Liang Lin, which I have heard too many times but frankly it is so good with this combo I can't stop listening. DSD to the Hugo, Micro to the HE1000. What a combination.




Any recommended sellers?


----------



## jamato8

Jim McShane is very good and honest. He just got in a bunch of the CV4024/12AT7 and you can be sure he is selling you the real thing.  VT99, man those have gotten expensive. You also need the adapter. I bought mine from HK and it is superb quality. I couldn't have done better (I am surprised how exceptionally well done it is). 
  
 Oh, the sound, wow. Really, I wish I could share my phones and sound with someone so they could just enjoy and believe how good this sound is. So fast, so transparent, so 3D. Guitar, which I used to play (acoustical), has that hollow body sound that comes through and gives it a reality of really being an instrument being playing.


----------



## richard51

Perhaps someone had  already listen the he 6 with the microzotl ? i am curious because he 6 are affordable, he 1000 is too costly for me ...


----------



## jamato8

richard51 said:


> Perhaps someone had  already listen the he 6 with the microzotl ? i am curious because he 6 are affordable, he 1000 is too costly for me ...


 

 I haven't tried. I do not think the Zotl would have enough power for them.


----------



## Audio Addict

richard51 said:


> Perhaps someone had  already listen the he 6 with the microzotl ? i am curious because he 6 are affordable, he 1000 is too costly for me ...




For the HE6, while there seems enough volume something is just missing in the upper mid range and the treble. Seems rolled off. Swap in the the HEK and the magic comes back. The microZOTL just isn't quite enough for my 1st generation HE6.

I have the HE560 but did not try them tonight.


----------



## richard51

thank you   very much.....for your kind attention and reply... its interesting for me to know that......
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 i want to know your impression with the he 560.... i will waited....


----------



## doctorjazz

What I read about the HE-6, many use speaker annoys to drive it. Also have the 560, but, tbh, have trouble listening to it after listening to the 1k, the few times I've even tried, u put the 1k back on quickly. Really liked the 560 before that, mind you, but it's really easy to get spoiled!


----------



## Audio Addict

doctorjazz said:


> What I read about the HE-6, many use speaker annoys to drive it. Also have the 560, but, tbh, have trouble listening to it after listening to the 1k, the few times I've even tried, u put the 1k back on quickly. Really liked the 560 before that, mind you, but it's really easy to get spoiled!




Agree 100 Percent. I normally run my HE6 with a balanced input to a RSA SR71B with modified high gain with no problems.


----------



## gurus

The MZOTL has probably the best soundstage (that I have listened to) in a HP amp.


----------



## doctorjazz

Away at the Jersey shore, ZOTL and HEK are home, you guys making me miss them!


----------



## jamato8

I get the best depth, width and imaging from the Zotl Micro over any other amp I have. This is good and a little depressing (strangely I admit) because my Richard Marsh DIY amp is so good and held the prize for me. The DIY is very pure but the Micro gets more 3D out of the recording. I love the VT99 tubes and I haven't used the round plate black glass yet (made by National Union though very possibly Tung-sol but there has been debate about this for some time as NU is reputed to have made some round plate black glass as well).


----------



## kiertijai

_*For the HE6, while there seems enough volume something is just missing in the upper mid range and the treble. Seems rolled off. Swap in the the HEK and the magic comes back.*_
_*The microZOTL just isn't quite enough for my 1st generation HE6.*_
 Can we use the speaker post to improve this?  I know that the output is 1 W for both headphone out and speaker post out.  However the speaker post is ? balanced so it may have more driving
 power. I may be wrong but I will try as my unit will arrive today
  
  
_*I get the best depth, width and imaging from the Zotl Micro over any other amp I have. This is good and a little depressing (strangely I admit) because my Richard Marsh DIY amp is so good and held the prize for me. *_
_*The DIY is very pure but the Micro gets more 3D out of the recording. I love the VT99 tubes and I haven't used the round plate black glass yet *_
_*(made by National Union though very possibly Tung-sol but there has been debate about this for some time as NU is reputed to have made some round plate black glass as well). *_
  
 Thanks for providing the info.  I think I will take a listen to the stock tubes first and I will try Tungsol BGRP  +  Mullard M8162 (similar to Mullard 4024) or Brimar 6060 yellow T later


----------



## jamato8

kiertijai said:


> _*For the HE6, while there seems enough volume something is just missing in the upper mid range and the treble. Seems rolled off. Swap in the the HEK and the magic comes back.*_
> _*The microZOTL just isn't quite enough for my 1st generation HE6.*_
> Can we use the speaker post to improve this?  I know that the output is 1 W for both headphone out and speaker post out.  However the speaker post is ? balanced so it may have more driving
> power. I may be wrong but I will try as my unit will arrive today
> ...


 

 The stock tubes are surprisingly good. Unlike many amp, that give you some so-so tubes and you go out and hunt for better tubes, the new manufactured Tung-sols they provided are very good.


----------



## doctorjazz

jamato8 said:


> kiertijai said:
> 
> 
> > _*For the HE6, while there seems enough volume something is just missing in the upper mid range and the treble. Seems rolled off. Swap in the the HEK and the magic comes back.*_
> ...




Good to hear...so i can stop obsessing over tubes for now?


----------



## jamato8

doctorjazz said:


> Good to hear...so i can stop obsessing over tubes for now?


 

 I would say so. Just enjoy what you get because with the stock tubes, it does an excellent job.


----------



## doctorjazz

jamato8 said:


> doctorjazz said:
> 
> 
> > Good to hear...so i can stop obsessing over tubes for now?
> ...






(have to say, though, NOT obsessing does NOT come naturally!)


----------



## saidentary

doctorjazz said:


> (have to say, though, NOT obsessing does NOT come naturally!)


 

 A common theme on this site, and I'd certainly include myself in that group.  That's one of the reasons I got so giddy about the MicroZOTL 2:  I have no more urge to obsess (about headphone sound, anyway....) with the way the HE-1000s sound driven by this little magic box.  I'm actually _beyond _satisfied. 
 (My wife's ....................................._ relieved_.)


----------



## richard51

that sound magnificently convincing......


----------



## drbluenewmexico

doctorjazz said:


> What I read about the HE-6, many use speaker annoys to drive it. Also have the 560, but, tbh, have trouble listening to it after listening to the 1k, the few times I've even tried, u put the 1k back on quickly. Really liked the 560 before that, mind you, but it's really easy to get spoiled!


 

 you spoiled doctorjazz?  are you definitely getting the HE1K?
 ps you deserve it!


----------



## doctorjazz

drbluenewmexico said:


> doctorjazz said:
> 
> 
> > What I read about the HE-6, many use speaker annoys to drive it. Also have the 560, but, tbh, have trouble listening to it after listening to the 1k, the few times I've even tried, u put the 1k back on quickly. Really liked the 560 before that, mind you, but it's really easy to get spoiled!
> ...




Have to say, the only thing better about the 560 is, for me, it's more comfortable. I had to put a wrap around the head band of the HEK (was suggested on one of these HEK threads), spreads the pressure across my bald noggin and helps (the pressure and discomfort is right at the top of my small, smooth head, and is worse the smaller I make the band. Much better wrapped, though. Add some cheese and salsa, makes a nice sandwich  ) . But, have to say, almost everything I listen to sounds a bit muddy since I got these. Put them on my wife's ears, put on Ella and Louis for her, even she was wowed (and she's heard some good gear-mine, of course-over the years, usually doesn't particularly care a whole lot. She was stunned by the clarity and realism of these. So, long winded answer, they'll be my birthday present to myself (someone has to do it), with the ZOTL driving them. Definitely miss them on vacation. Using Beyer 1350, FAD Heaven V, Pono, other iems, good gear, all ruined for me, sad...


----------



## jamato8

Back to using the Tung-Sol black glass round plate 6SN7. Excellent depth with the HE1000 and spot on imaging. The input tubes are the CV4024.  Listening to Mighty Sam McClain on DSD Blues Masters from Oct. 18, 2014. A great recording, very natural and excellent audience sounds and spacial cues.


----------



## drbluenewmexico

doctorjazz said:


> Have to say, the only thing better about the 560 is, for me, it's more comfortable. I had to put a wrap around the head band of the HEK (was suggested on one of these HEK threads), spreads the pressure across my bald noggin and helps (the pressure and discomfort is right at the top of my small, smooth head, and is worse the smaller I make the band. Much better wrapped, though. Add some cheese and salsa, makes a nice sandwich  ) . But, have to say, almost everything I listen to sounds a bit muddy since I got these. Put them on my wife's ears, put on Ella and Louis for her, even she was wowed (and she's heard some good gear-mine, of course-over the years, usually doesn't particularly care a whole lot. She was stunned by the clarity and realism of these. So, long winded answer, they'll be my birthday present to myself (someone has to do it), with the ZOTL driving them. Definitely miss them on vacation. Using Beyer 1350, FAD Heaven V, Pono, other iems, good gear, all ruined for me, sad...


 

 glad to hear you will have a fabulous birthday and audio holiday!!!!! congratulations!!!!!! The Zotl2, HiFIMan1k and doctorjazz go together like a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, or something like that!


----------



## doctorjazz

drbluenewmexico said:


> doctorjazz said:
> 
> 
> > Have to say, the only thing better about the 560 is, for me, it's more comfortable. I had to put a wrap around the head band of the HEK (was suggested on one of these HEK threads), spreads the pressure across my bald noggin and helps (the pressure and discomfort is right at the top of my small, smooth head, and is worse the smaller I make the band. Much better wrapped, though. Add some cheese and salsa, makes a nice sandwich  ) . But, have to say, almost everything I listen to sounds a bit muddy since I got these. Put them on my wife's ears, put on Ella and Louis for her, even she was wowed (and she's heard some good gear-mine, of course-over the years, usually doesn't particularly care a whole lot. She was stunned by the clarity and realism of these. So, long winded answer, they'll be my birthday present to myself (someone has to do it), with the ZOTL driving them. Definitely miss them on vacation. Using Beyer 1350, FAD Heaven V, Pono, other iems, good gear, all ruined for me, sad...
> ...




They're very impressive sounding, tried them on my 21 year old last night, home for a day, has heard (and liked) many of my headphones, was floored by the HEK/MicroZOTL combo (as she should be). As I said, even my wife "gets it" with these, can't say that is true for most of my audio escapades


----------



## Audio Addict

A wife and a 21 year old daughter that gets the synergy of the zotl2 and the HE1K, the odds of that has to be 1 in a billion or maybe even a zillion


----------



## doctorjazz

audio addict said:


> A wife and a 21 year old daughter that gets the synergy of the zotl2 and the HE1K, the odds of that has to be 1 in a billion or maybe even a zillion




True dat!


----------



## kiertijai

Received my unit last week.
 Have time to assemble today and listen right out of the box.
 Sound very impressive and similar to my Zotl preone + Zotl ZH230 setup.
 I have tried to drive Abyss AB1266 with the speaker post of ZH230 but may be too much power.
 Out of curiosity I only try speaker post output of microzotl2 with Abyss AB1266, HD800, LCD3 and HE6 (no HE100 in Thailand right now)
 There is no problem  driving HE6 (I am using Gustard U12 out from J River Media20 to Weiss DAC202)
 I can vary the output of my Weiss DAC202 but I need to increase only one step from my usual setting to drive HE6
 Have listened to Stravinsky The Rite Of Spring Eiji Oue, Sarah Brightman Eden, Time To Say Goodbye, La Luna
 Alison Krauss Forget About It, Dire Straits Love Over Gold   All in DSD files (converted to PCM 176.4 by Gustard U12 ). All with excellent results
 No need to change the stock tube as it is very transparent , resolving and has enough warmth for me (may be Tungsol 6SN7 BGRP later)
 I think Brimar 6060 Yellow T or Mullard M8162 may be too warm and too sweet (as 12AT7 driver) , but may try Siemens ECC801s triple mica later, later.


----------



## doctorjazz

With the new MicroZOTL addition to your ZOTL collection, we'd have to call your system MACROZOTL!


----------



## kiertijai

I am interested in the original microzotl for some time but did not find a good one
 Later I purchased the Zotl preone + Zh230 and happily use this unit to drive takeT H2+ and new Jecklin
 Float QA.  I also use this unit with HE6 and loves it.  I tried to use with Abyss AB1266 and it drives the Abyss AB1266
 better than any of my amplifier but the volume is too loud for me so I cannot use for long listening.
 When I found out from this thread that the new microzotl2 coming and it has several functions that suits me.  I emailed
 David and did not hesitate to order one.
 I will use it to drive Abyss AB1266 and HE6, may not be as good as the combo (I should say around 85-90% for headphones).
 I consider the microzotl2 now as the best buy headphone amplifier (not burn in yet). I have to wait for the Liquid carbon though.
  
  
 I also use the microzotl2 with other earbuds: VE Zen, Sennheiser MX985, PK1 and Xiaomi
 I can confirm that there are no hisses with there four earbuds. 
 I love the microzotl2 driving the MX985


----------



## doctorjazz

Sometimes get a slight hiss with my ACS Encores ciem, not with VE Zen, most of my listening time with it is with the HEK, hate to use my too-limited listening time listening to anything else!


----------



## doctorjazz

Have the Liquid Carbon on order as well, curious how they'll compare.


----------



## kiertijai

I have tried another most difficult phone today : AKG K1000 bass heavy via speaker post
 I am very happy as the microzotl2 can drive AKG K1000 with authority at 2 Oclock with normal output setting of Weiss DAC202
 So I will leave my output at 2 Oclock and will adjust the volume of the Weiss DAC202 if I use different headphones
 Love the cello sound with the AKG K1000 + microzotl2
  
 So far it serves my purpose to drive several difficult headphones that cannot be achieved fully
 with my other amplifier :ECBA and EAR HP4.


----------



## bmichels

kiertijai said:


> I have tried another most difficult phone today : AKG K1000 bass heavy via speaker post
> I am very happy as the microzotl2 can drive AKG K1000 with authority at 2 Oclock with normal output setting of Weiss DAC202
> So I will leave my output at 2 Oclock and will adjust the volume of the Weiss DAC202 if I use different headphones
> Love the cello sound with the AKG K1000 + microzotl2
> ...


 
  
 You mean that the $1000 MicroZotl2 has more authority than those Super High-End $5000 headphone Amp ( ECBA and EAR HP4) !??  Will it be better than my EC445 ?
  
 And Also, are you sure that MicroZotl2 really is powerful enough to have the ABYSS delivering the best possible SQ ?  This seems to be hard to believe knowing the ABYSS taste for poser !?


----------



## doctorjazz

Question...how do you use the speaker taps? (an adaptor, I assume). And, is there a benefit/difference doing that for the HEK, which seems to run fine out of the headphone jack. And, heard off EAR, what is the other amp, if you don't mind me asking? Thanks.


----------



## Audio Addict

doctorjazz said:


> Question...how do you use the speaker taps? (an adaptor, I assume). And, is there a benefit/difference doing that for the HEK, which seems to run fine out of the headphone jack. And, heard off EAR, what is the other amp, if you don't mind me asking? Thanks.




You need an adapter terminated with speaker terminations and the other end a female 4 pin xlr or a full replacement calble just terminated for speakers.

The only other consideration is whether you need a resistor to change the load down closer to 8 ohm. I would ask Urban HIFI on that.


----------



## doctorjazz

But, it's there a benefit using the same amp?


----------



## kiertijai

_*You mean that the $1000 MicroZotl2 has more authority than those Super High-End $5000 headphone Amp ( ECBA and EAR HP4) !??  Will it be better than my EC445 ?*_
  
_*And Also, are you sure that MicroZotl2 really is powerful enough to have the ABYSS delivering the best possible SQ ?  This seems to be hard to believe knowing the ABYSS taste for poser !?*_
  
_*     *_My ECBA and EAR HP4 are excellent amplifier for headphones.  My ECBA is of PX25 setup (NOS Osram PX25) and balanced in and out but it does not seem to drive HE6 and Abyss AB1266
 as well as my Zotl setup (Zotl preone + Zotl Zh230).  This Zotl set cost 3-4 times more than ECBA.  With the PX25 or 300B setup the the design of ECBA amplifier  will have less output (half) than 2A3 setup
 (I don't know about 45 setup) and it has less power that my previous amplifier ZDT (also of Eddie current).  It can drive Sennheiser HD800 and LCD3 with excellent result but not HE6, K1000 or Abyss.  
 EAR HP4 has only SE out so it can not drive HE6 or Abyss AB1266 well enough.   I don't say that both amplifiers are inferior to microzotl2  but it does not have enough driving power to drive those difficult headphones.  I didn't try the headphone out of microzotl2 because I think it has the same output (1W) which is equal to those of ECBA or EAR HP4 which should not be enough. May be I will try later.
  
     In order to compare these amplifier we need to use headphones like HE5, HD800, LCD3, Fostex TH900, W3000anv, R10 , Qualia etc.   
  
     I don't have Cavalli LAu that works excellently with the Abyss so I don't know whether how much the Cavalli is better than the microzotl2.   The Viva Egoista 845 should be much better but I don't think I will purchase that except it is in combo with electrostatic amplifier with speaker out.  I am also waiting for the Cavalli Liquid carbon.
  
  
*You need an adapter terminated with speaker terminations and the other end a female 4 pin xlr*
*     *Yes I use this adapter cable (Kimber Kable ) custom made in Thailand. One Thai head-fier made this cable for our community to use with the HE6
  
_*The only other consideration is whether you need a resistor to change the load down closer to 8 ohm. I would ask Urban HIFI on that*_
_*      *_I don't use any resistor in the microzotl2 or the big brother Zotl setup and I think the design of David Berning amplifier adjust very well to different load


----------



## drbluenewmexico

THIS JUST IN:  a TREMENDOUS UPGRADE for the MICROZOTL2!;
  
 the Joule V power supply from Mojo-Audio.com produced a STARTLING upgrade
 in sound that was jaw dropping.  I was at head Mojo lab director Ben Zeikel/s
 lab with my Zotl prototype, using it as a preamp to drive his customized Maggie 1.7s.  The Zotl as a preamp did an admirable job, way better than Ben.s passive
 preamp.  But when we put his Joule V power supply on the Zotl, the soundstage
 opened up, the dynamics more than doubled, and the 3D sound of DSD recordings was UNBELIEVABLE!  It was not a subtle improvement, it was a
 world class improvement.  Highly recommended!!!!  investigate these power supplies at Mojo-Audio.com.  Ben has a smaller, more economical power supply coming out soon that is  supposed to sound the same as the Joule V for headphone amps alone.  I am still in shock by how much improvement  the Joule V made to the system sound, i was glued to my listening chair in his lab for a long time.....


----------



## jamato8

At 1000 dollars it should be good but I don't think I am prepared to put out that much. I have my PS plugged into my balanced AC voltage purifier and it cleans the AC better than most anything on the market. With regards to the rest of the PS, I am sure it is good quality stuff but 1000 dollars for a 12 volt supply. . .


----------



## saidentary

drbluenewmexico said:


> Joule V power supply from Mojo-Audio.com .............a STARTLING upgrade
> 
> Ben has a smaller, more economical power supply coming out soon that is supposed to sound the same as the Joule V for headphone amps alone.


 
 I'll be waiting for the smaller more economical version that sounds the same......


----------



## bmichels

jamato8 said:


> At 1000 dollars it should be good but I don't think I am prepared to put out that much. I have my PS plugged into my balanced AC voltage purifier and it cleans the AC better than most anything on the market. With regards to the rest of the PS, I am sure it is good quality stuff but 1000 dollars for a 12 volt supply. . .




A good 12 v battery will do the trick also. Less expensive and 100% isolated from external noise. Plus... Make the amp transportable.


----------



## saidentary

bmichels said:


> A good 12 v battery will do the trick also. Less expensive and 100% isolated from external noise. Plus... Make the amp transportable.


 

 Seriously?  So, um, can you show me a link or something with instructions?  (It would be cool if you did.  Just sayin'......
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





)


----------



## kiertijai

_*the Joule V power supply from Mojo-Audio.com produced a STARTLING upgrade*_
_*in sound that was jaw dropping.  I was at head Mojo lab director Ben Zeikel/s*_
_*lab with my Zotl prototype, using it as a preamp to drive his customized Maggie 1.7s.  The Zotl as a preamp did an admirable job, way better than Ben.s passive*_
_*preamp.  But when we put his Joule V power supply on the Zotl, the soundstage*_
_*opened up, the dynamics more than doubled, and the 3D sound of DSD recordings was UNBELIEVABLE!  It was not a subtle improvement, it was a*_
_*world class improvement.  Highly recommended!!!!  investigate these power supplies at Mojo-Audio.com.  Ben has a smaller, more economical power supply coming out soon that is  supposed to sound the same as the Joule V for headphone amps alone.  I am still in shock by how much improvement  the Joule V made to the system sound, i was glued to my listening chair in his lab for a long time.....*_
_*    *_  I would not hesitate if the price is less than 300 US dollars
  
_*A good 12 v battery will do the trick also. Less expensive and 100% isolated from external noise. Plus... Make the amp transportable*_
       I am also interested
  
  
 I tried the headphone out of microzotl2 today.  To my surprise the microzotl2 can drive the HE6 and Abyss AB1266 very well.
 I only used 1-2 o'clock for Abyss AB1266 and 2 o'clock for HE6 playing DSD file of Dana Winners.
 However the headphone out of microzotl2 can not drive AKG K1000 well enough even at 3 o'clock and if I turned on more volume nothing changed
 I could drive the AKG K1000 very well with significantly wider soundstage only when I used the speaker out.


----------



## Audio Addict

Last weekend when I had it here for our Chicago Head-Fi meet, I almost tried the LH LABS LPS4 with it but did not. Now I have to wonder what the improvement may have been.


----------



## doctorjazz

I wondered about the LPS as well. There is a version sine purple over at LH Labs Pulse thread are using, Jays LPS, less than half the LH Labs version and folks there seem to be happy with it. I had actually gotten one, but it was the wrong unit for my Geek Out.
as for battery, I recall some high end gear having a built in battery to avoid the sonic problems associated with power.


----------



## Wildcatsare1

audio addict said:


> You need an adapter terminated with speaker terminations and the other end a female 4 pin xlr or a full replacement calble just terminated for speakers.
> 
> The only other consideration is whether you need a resistor to change the load down closer to 8 ohm. I would ask Urban HIFI on that.




DocJazz, I have a HiFiman adapter box fir using the speaker taps. I am not using it presently, let me know if you want to try it with your ZOTL and HEKs?


----------



## doctorjazz

I'd love to Wildcatsare1, thanks, I'll PM info, really curious if it makes any difference.

I got the info on the Jay's LPS



"Hi it would be SGD260 shipped to USA with PayPal fee. I just check the MicroZOTL, it needs 2.5mm pin. The one comes with LPS is 2.1mm pin.

U may get the connector locally I guess"



Not sure how the connector difference is handled...adapter? I can forward info to anyone interested in contacting the person who gets these.


----------



## jamato8

The speaker taps come off of the headphone jack. You aren't going to get any increased power and 6SN7 types only have so much power to give anyway. They are not a power tube to begin with, they are a signal tube but in this case D. Berning, with his use of windings, has allowed them to function as a low power output tube in push pull function.


----------



## doctorjazz

That's what I suspected, you shouldn't really get more out off ZOTL from the taps.
Basic question: used to solid state gear, tend to always keep it on. Are people doing that with the ZOTL. I understand that will decrease tube life, but we'll it be very significant?


----------



## jamato8

doctorjazz said:


> That's what I suspected, you shouldn't really get more out off ZOTL from the taps.
> Basic question: used to solid state gear, tend to always keep it on. Are people doing that with the ZOTL. I understand that will decrease tube life, but we'll it be very significant?


 

 It is operating in class A. I would not leave it on when not in use. Solid state is often better off left on but tubes, unless set up for it like some switching tubes that Western Electric made for controls in the bottom of the ocean that were still in use after 50 years, no. When not in use, I turn my tube equipment off.


----------



## kiertijai

_*The speaker taps come off of the headphone jack. You aren't going to get any increased power and 6SN7 types only have so much power to give anyway. They are not a power tube to begin with, they are a signal tube but in this case D. Berning, with his use of windings, has allowed them to function as a low power output tube in push pull function.*_
_*      *_That's what I know too that the output is the same for headphone out and speaker post out.  However from my experience of AKG K1000 it is better with the speaker post.
       I have emailed David and he though that the better result may be due to better contact of the speaker post.
  
       He also informed that the additional of 8 Ohm may not be necessary
  
       For the LPS, I am also interested in Jay's but I am concerned about the 2.1 vs 2.5 Jack, is there any way that we can solve this.  David said that  it may better and the lower
 the impedance of the LPS the better result but a good battery is the best


----------



## Audio Addict

kiertijai said:


> _*The speaker taps come off of the headphone jack. You aren't going to get any increased power and 6SN7 types only have so much power to give anyway. They are not a power tube to begin with, they are a signal tube but in this case D. Berning, with his use of windings, has allowed them to function as a low power output tube in push pull function.*_
> _*      *_That's what I know too that the output is the same for headphone out and speaker post out.  However from my experience of AKG K1000 it is better with the speaker post.
> I have emailed David and he though that the better result may be due to better contact of the speaker post.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I would think the total separation of the grounds for the left and right channels  has to be much better through the speaker tap than the 1/4 inch connector.  Good to know he didn't think there would be any issue 8 ohm connections.


----------



## dpump

For the LPS, I am also interested in Jay's but I am concerned about the 2.1 vs 2.5 Jack, is there any way that we can solve this.  David said that  it may better and the lower
 the impedance of the LPS the better result but a good battery is the best
  
 You would need to remove the 2.1 plug and replace it with a 2.5 plug; you don't want an adapter, although I have never seen one of this type myself. I went to the L H Labs site to look at the LPS4. I  didn't see any specs and no picture of the inside of the unit. The LPS4 has (4) 12V outs, where the regular LPS has (1) 12V out. You only need (1) 12V output for the microZOTL2, and you are also paying for a nice front panel that has no effect on the sound. Also keep in mind that the MZ2 needs 12V @ 3.7 Amps, so make sure any power supply you consider has at least a 4 Amp rating.
  
 Check out Welborne Labs. He has a nice 4 Amp linear power supply that will be much less expensive than the L H Labs, and you can see pictures of what you are getting.


----------



## dpump

I would think the total separation of the grounds for the left and right channels  has to be much better through the speaker tap than the 1/4 inch connector.  Good to know he didn't think there would be any issue 8 ohm connections.
  
 If you look at the speaker terminals on the MZ2, you will see that the speaker grounds are connected together, so you aren't getting a true balanced connection. This is true of many amps, not just the MZ2. To get a true balanced connection, you need an amp that has 2 totally separate amps-an amp that has been designed from the start to be balanced.


----------



## doctorjazz

Boy, am I the wrong one to tell you what to do to use the Jays LPS with the wrong connector. I would have thought some sort of adapter exists that would work, guess I'm wrong. If you needed to know who plays tenor sax on, say Billie Holiday's "Mean To Me", I could probably give that sort of answer (Lester Young...just wrote a review of Billie Holiday-The Centennial Collection, a recent reissue, for The Audiophile Voice, great stuff). I count on you guys here for the tech stuff. Sometimes I need help turning stuff on...


----------



## richard51

someone has experience of the microzotl + the Woo wee  for electrostatic Stax ? is it possible to match the zotl with  that  and to have good result ?


----------



## dpump

Just saw an L H Labs LPS4 For Sale here on Head-Fi. There is a picture of the inside and the back of the unit. It appears to be well made, but the back shows that the 2 highest rated outputs are 1.5 amps. Do Not buy this unit to use with the MZ2. The MZ2 has a minimum rating of 3.7 Amps. You would most likely overload the LPS4 and damage it or just blow fuses. Wait for the Mojo-Audio power supply as he is aware of what the MZ2 needs, or check out Welborne Labs as I mentioned earlier. I'm going to contact Welborne Labs and nail down his price on a 12V 4A power supply in kit form and factory built. I'll report what I find. I'm pretty sure the Mojo-Audio supply will be superior, but it will probably end up being 1 & 1/2 to 2 times more expensive than the Welborne.


----------



## saidentary

dpump said:


> The MZ2 has a minimum rating of 3.7 Amps.


 
 I own one of these little magic boxes.  How did you find out about the 3.7 Amps rating?  Could you explain further what that means and how it works?  (That may be a very basic question, but......
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)


----------



## dpump

saidentary said:


> I own one of these little magic boxes.  How did you find out about the 3.7 Amps rating?  Could you explain further what that means and how it works?  (That may be a very basic question, but......
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Look at the picture of the back of the unit in the images at the top of the page, look at the instruction manual, or look at the back of your unit where the DC adaptor plug connects. You will see 12VDC 3.7A. This means that whatever outboard power supply you use should supply 12 Volts DC and be capable of supplying at least 3.7 Amps. It would be ok to use a power supply that could supply more than 3.7A, but not less than 3.7A. The 12VDC should stay as close as possible to 12VDC.
  
 Thus the rcommendation for the Welborne 12VDC 4A power supply. You have a little extra current rating and you have 12 VDC. The Welborne and the Mojo-Audio are both regulated power supplies, which means they are adjusted to output 12VDC and will maintain 12VDC to a very tight tolerance. If I remember correctly, the Mojo-Audio can output 12VDC at up to 10A, so it is actually somewhat overkill for the MZ2, but it looks to have more filtration than the Welborne and should provide somewhat cleaner power. Might provide a somewhat better sound but is one of the reasons the Mojo-Audio is more expensive.


----------



## saidentary

drbluenewmexico said:


> I was at head Mojo lab director Ben Zeikel/s lab with my Zotl prototype, using it as a preamp to drive his customized Maggie 1.7s.  The Zotl as a preamp did an admirable job, way better than Ben.s passive preamp.  But when we put his Joule V power supply on the Zotl, the soundstage opened up, the dynamics more than doubled, and the 3D sound of DSD recordings was UNBELIEVABLE!  It was not a subtle improvement, it was a world class improvement.  Highly recommended!!!!


 
 What about with headphones?  Have you tried this test using the unit as headphone amplifier?


----------



## doctorjazz

Blue has told me it is terrific with headphones. Still mucho dinero! Think I'm better off not auditioning the combo!


----------



## saidentary

doctorjazz said:


> Blue has told me it is terrific with headphones. Still mucho dinero! Think I'm better off not auditioning the combo!


 
 I'm actually quite satisfied* with the sound NOW; in fact, I'm rather thrilled with it, which is what I said in my (HE 1000 beta tester) review, because it was (and still is) true.  Maybe there's an improvement and maybe it's a significant improvement, but I'm not really all that anxious to "fix" something that isn't broken.  That's a big reason I love the MZ2 + HE 1000 combo so much⇒that threshold of satisfaction, usually so elusive for me in audio, is surpassed; the urge to "upgrade" is pretty much gone for me, at least for now. 
  
*No, that's not a typo.


----------



## screwdriver

i wonder how this  amp does with the sennheiser hd800 compared to the other  amps that can drive the hd800 well  like the gsx2 , EC amps , Donald north amps .


----------



## kiertijai

_*this  amp does with the sennheiser hd800*_
_*      *_You won't be disappointed , Microzotl2 is more than enough to drive HD800
 and it sings beautifully as I am playing hires file of Jennifer Warnes : Famous Blue Raincoat.
 The bass response of HD800 with microzotl2 is also very good indeed. I can enjoy Hires file of
 Muse The 2nd Law with the HD800+microzotl2
 You don't have to spend 4K to 5K for this purpose.
  
 I do have EC Balancing Act and Ear HP4 and both of them drives HD800 very well.  I don't think
 HD800 lacks bass response. I think it depends on the quality of the amplifier.  I use Zeus copper
 cable for HD800 and I think it improves the bass response.  I have tried Whiplash cable but I don't think
 it's a good match for HD800.  My Sennheiser HD800 does not use the Anaxillus mod.
  
 It is difficult for me to compare those amplifiers with HD800 because they are connected to different setup
 so I don't know whether the difference may be due to other factors that I cannot control or not.


----------



## kiertijai

I have searched linear power supply on ebay and found several LPS including Jay's, Teradak, SMSL
 I am waiting for the seller's response whether they meet the requirement of 12V 4A 2.5mm (220V for me) or not
 One seller's response is that this model meets the requirement and he can change 2.1mm to 2.5mm connector.
 I would like to ask whether it is good or not?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/30W-30VA-HiFi-Linear-power-supply-PSU-DC9V-12V-15V-16V-18V-20V-24V-for-choose-/141696178083?ssPageName=ADME:X:RTQ:US:1123
 It does not cost a lot so it is tempting but I think I will wait for other sellers's response : Teradak, SMSL etc


----------



## doctorjazz

The ebay one is a really good price IF it is any good and OK with the connectors. I have no idea about any of this, of course...will await more knowledgeable replies.


----------



## kiertijai

The seller said that it's from Breeze Audio: a high quality one.
 He can change the connector to 2.5mm  and it is 12V 4A
 May pull the trigger soon, waiting for more info.


----------



## jamato8

kiertijai said:


> The seller said that it's from Breeze Audio: a high quality one.
> He can change the connector to 2.5mm  and it is 12V 4A
> May pull the trigger soon, waiting for more info.


 

 There are no specifications. Does he have anything on how it measures? Ripple at different frequencies etc.


----------



## kiertijai

I will try to get more info. from them but I am not sure to get full specification.
 I have purchased Gustard U12 USB interface which is very good but not much info from breeze audio


----------



## dpump

kiertijai said:


> I have searched linear power supply on ebay and found several LPS including Jay's, Teradak, SMSL
> I am waiting for the seller's response whether they meet the requirement of 12V 4A 2.5mm (220V for me) or not
> One seller's response is that this model meets the requirement and he can change 2.1mm to 2.5mm connector.
> I would like to ask whether it is good or not?
> ...


 

 This says the power supply is 30 Watts. A 30 watt power supply would be rated at 2.5 Amps. Divide 30 (watts) by 12 (volts) to get 2.5 Amps. The power supply that comes with the MZ2 is rated at 44.4 Watts, so 44.4 divided by 12 is 3.7 A, and that is the minimum the amp calls for. Also this power supply doesn't have much power line filtration per the somewhat dark picture, so I would stay away from it on that alone.


----------



## kiertijai

thanks,
 how's about this one.  It says that it is 50W but ?2A
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-TeraDak-DC-50W-Dacmagic-plug-12V-power-source-PSU-Linear-Power-Supply-AQ/191250090530?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D32297%26meid%3D33f691c7f4c54b2f9e56de4d76d06a3e%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D131112824783&rt=nc


----------



## kiertijai

_*MicroZOTL is self biasing.

 MicroZOTL draws about 2 A @ 12 V. I don't know what the rating of the power supply is that is furnished with MicroZOTL 2.*_
  
 This is the info. from David
  
 I also asked the specification directly from Teradak about their power supply, hope they will answer


----------



## dpump

kiertijai said:


> thanks,
> how's about this one.  It says that it is 50W but ?2A
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-TeraDak-DC-50W-Dacmagic-plug-12V-power-source-PSU-Linear-Power-Supply-AQ/191250090530?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D32297%26meid%3D33f691c7f4c54b2f9e56de4d76d06a3e%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D131112824783&rt=nc


 

 The model number of the unit is DC-50W, but that apparently isn't the power rating, as the rating in the text says 12V @ 2A.


----------



## dpump

kiertijai said:


> _*MicroZOTL is self biasing.
> 
> MicroZOTL draws about 2 A @ 12 V. I don't know what the rating of the power supply is that is furnished with MicroZOTL 2.*_
> 
> ...


 

 The power supply that comes with the MZ2 says 12V 44.4W. The back of the MZ2 says 12VDC 3.7A. Mark at UrbanHiFi, who licensed the MZ2 circuit from David Berning, worked with Berning on the amp and told me the supplied power supply is equivalent to what was used in the original microZotl. But of course David Berning is the last word. Don't know why Mark would use a 3.7A power supply if 2A is enough; maybe just so it won't have to work as hard. I need to put my ammeter on the MZ2 to see what mine is actually drawing.


----------



## drbluenewmexico

dpump said:


> Just saw an L H Labs LPS4 For Sale here on Head-Fi. There is a picture of the inside and the back of the unit. It appears to be well made, but the back shows that the 2 highest rated outputs are 1.5 amps. Do Not buy this unit to use with the MZ2. The MZ2 has a minimum rating of 3.7 Amps. You would most likely overload the LPS4 and damage it or just blow fuses. Wait for the Mojo-Audio power supply as he is aware of what the MZ2 needs, or check out Welborne Labs as I mentioned earlier. I'm going to contact Welborne Labs and nail down his price on a 12V 4A power supply in kit form and factory built. I'll report what I find. I'm pretty sure the Mojo-Audio supply will be superior, but it will probably end up being 1 & 1/2 to 2 times more expensive than the Welborne.


 

 the Mojo Audio Joule V power supply (available now) is built like a tank, and definitely powers the MZotl with authority and magic improvement over the stock power supply.  The newer budget Mojo Audio supply the WATT will be available very soon and uses identical circuits but in a smaller box, and gets a bit hotter, but still drives the MZotl with authority and grace.  contact Benjamin Zweikel at Mojo-Audio.com for more details!!! Occasionally Benjamin has trade ins of his Joule 1 and Joule 3 or 4 power supplies and they should work well also, but the Joule V and the upcoming Watt are the audio TOTL versions.... Im using a borrowed Joule 1 on my prototype MZotl and it really improved the the sound quite nicely......and is built like a Mercedes-Benz......


----------



## jamato8

dpump said:


> The power supply that comes with the MZ2 says 12V 44.4W. The back of the MZ2 says 12VDC 3.7A. Mark at UrbanHiFi, who licensed the MZ2 circuit from David Berning, worked with Berning on the amp and told me the supplied power supply is equivalent to what was used in the original microZotl. But of course David Berning is the last word. Don't know why Mark would use a 3.7A power supply if 2A is enough; maybe just so it won't have to work as hard. I need to put my ammeter on the MZ2 to see what mine is actually drawing.


 

 I would always want a higher than needed spec PS and I would imagine at startup when the heaters are cold there is going to be a surge in current and you have to go over the static current use for that. I was going to put a resistor in and measure for current but I look forward to what you find.


----------



## drbluenewmexico

drbluenewmexico said:


> the Mojo Audio Joule V power supply (available now) is built like a tank, and definitely powers the MZotl with authority and magic improvement over the stock power supply.  The newer budget Mojo Audio supply the WATT will be available very soon and uses identical circuits but in a smaller box, and gets a bit hotter, but still drives the MZotl with authority and grace.  contact Benjamin Zweikel at Mojo-Audio.com for more details!!! Occasionally Benjamin has trade ins of his Joule 1 and Joule 3 or 4 power supplies and they should work well also, but the Joule V and the upcoming Watt are the audio TOTL versions.... Im using a borrowed Joule 1 on my prototype MZotl and it really improved the the sound quite nicely......and is built like a Mercedes-Benz......


 

 Mojo-Audio just released the following info:
 Watt PSUs are available now - MSRP $799.95 + $149.95 for the DC power cable. 
 I would be willing to make an introductory offer of only $800 + shipping (a $150 discount) for anyone that wants one for their micro-Zotl.
  Watt is not yet on the website. Benjamin just sent me the following comments also:
  
  "I would also give them a 2014 (matte vs. scratch face plate) Joule V + DC cable for only $100 more. 
 I think the Joule V is a better deal, since it has more current capacity, won't get hot, and has an optional dual output (could run a DAC, drive, or USB converter)". 

  
 Attached is a rough photo.
 The Watt info is not available yet on the website of Mojo -Audio.com  call for more data than below:
 It is roughly 2/3 the size, cost, and current output of the Joule V. Here is a rough photo and
 a selfie i took while listening to the enhanced MicroZotl!


----------



## screwdriver

So these power supplies from mojo is about close the what the mz2 cost?


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## jamato8

drbluenewmexico said:


> Mojo-Audio just released the following info:
> Watt PSUs are available now - MSRP $799.95 + $149.95 for the DC power cable.
> I would be willing to make an introductory offer of only $800 + shipping (a $150 discount) for anyone that wants one for their micro-Zotl.
> Watt is not yet on the website. Benjamin just sent me the following comments also:
> ...


 
 What are the dimensions of the PS?


----------



## drbluenewmexico

jamato8 said:


> What are the dimensions of the PS?
> 
> This is the info i found on the Mojo-Audio web site.
> You should call or e mail them for more data on the units.
> ...


 

Less noise than a LiO4 battery.
Less than 50uV of peak-to-peak noise/ripple.
Less than 10uS settling time from zero to full output.
Up to 10 amps continuous power with up to 15 amp peaks.
Hot parts are heat sunk to the exterior and dissipated through the entire chassis.
Sophisticated AC filtering - no special power conditioners or cables are required.
Cascaded spread spectrum capacitive filtering for expanded bandwidth.
DC ground lift option allows separating AC and DC grounding.
Easily converted from 115V to 230V AC at IEC inlet.

  We use only the highest-quality parts: 
Belleson ultralow-noise high-dynamic regulators.
Organic polymer capacitors with ESR as low as 7mOhms.
High-frequency MLCC capacitors to filter beyond 3GHz.
IXYS ultrafast soft recovery Hexfred diode bridge.
Laboratory grade filtered/fused/switched AC power inlet.
Neutrik silver-plated 10A + 10A XLR DC power outlets.
Ultra-heavy gauge .125" thick all-aluminum chassis.
All non-magnetic stainless steel PEMs and hardware.
Durable high-temp powder coating inside and out.
Sorbothane or adjustable spiked anti-resonant feet.


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## Audio Addict

drbluenewmexico said:


> Mojo-Audio just released the following info:
> Watt PSUs are available now - MSRP $799.95 + $149.95 for the DC power cable.
> I would be willing to make an introductory offer of only $800 + shipping (a $150 discount) for anyone that wants one for their micro-Zotl.
> Watt is not yet on the website. Benjamin just sent me the following comments also:
> ...


 
  
 I presume this is the special purchase on the Joule V:
  
 http://www.mojo-audio.com/2014-joule-v-power-supply/


----------



## dpump

jamato8 said:


> I would always want a higher than needed spec PS and I would imagine at startup when the heaters are cold there is going to be a surge in current and you have to go over the static current use for that. I was going to put a resistor in and measure for current but I look forward to what you find.


 

 Using my clamp-on ammeter, I measure about .3A on start-up and .25A at idle. Sounds too low, but that's what I got.
  
 Reading the original instruction manual and a review of the original microZOTL, I  see that David Berning said the amp would draw 2.1A when using a 12V battery. The fuse on the original MZ internal power supply came right after the incoming power and was speced at 2.5A. So we can put this matter to rest and say that a replacement power supply for MZ2 should be rated at 2.5A or more. According to Mark at UrbanHiFi, the pcb in the MZ2 is an exact copy of the original MZ; the outboard power supply of the MZ2 is a copy of the internal power supply of the MZ.


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## jamato8

dpump said:


> Using my clamp-on ammeter, I measure about .3A on start-up and .25A at idle. Sounds too low, but that's what I got.
> 
> Reading the original instruction manual and a review of the original microZOTL, I  see that David Berning said the amp would draw 2.1A when using a 12V battery. The fuse on the original MZ internal power supply came right after the incoming power and was speced at 2.5A. So we can put this matter to rest and say that a replacement power supply for MZ2 should be rated at 2.5A or more. According to Mark at UrbanHiFi, the pcb in the MZ2 is an exact copy of the original MZ; the outboard power supply of the MZ2 is a copy of the internal power supply of the MZ.


 

 The best way then would be to put a small value resistor in line then and measure the drop and then get the ampere draw. But as you say, 2.5 will work. 2.5 or greater.


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## kiertijai

This is the response I got from Teradak
  
_*If you really need 12V@4A output, you should order 65W ~ 100W PSU for better performance *_
_*because the linear power supply unit is not as efficient as the regular switching power supply unit.*_
_*We have 100W PSU in stock and its price is $220 USD that does not include shipping fee.*_
  
*      *This is probably the reason why there is difference in A  David's info of 2A and 3.7A from urban hifi


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## jamato8

Well I took the plunge on the power supply from Mojo Audio. Will report what I hear/don't hear. They have a better deal on a few of the 2014 models, which are the same as the newest, just a different faceplate. I can't over emphasize the importance of a good power source. Having worked a lot on amps and preamps, it was the power supply that would make or break them.


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## Audio Addict

jamato8 said:


> Well I took the plunge on the power supply from Mojo Audio. Will report what I hear/don't hear. They have a better deal on a few of the 2014 models, which are the same as the newest, just a different faceplate. I can't over emphasize the importance of a good power source. Having worked a lot on amps and preamps, it was the power supply that would make or break them.




Thanks for taking one for the team 

I always thought one of the reasons the RSA amps; portable as well as the big ones, sounded excellent (at least to me) was the large focus on the power supplies.


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## doctorjazz

My RSA HR-2 has quite a massive external power supply, as you note.



audio addict said:


> jamato8 said:
> 
> 
> > Well I took the plunge on the power supply from Mojo Audio. Will report what I hear/don't hear. They have a better deal on a few of the 2014 models, which are the same as the newest, just a different faceplate. I can't over emphasize the importance of a good power source. Having worked a lot on amps and preamps, it was the power supply that would make or break them.
> ...


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## Audio Addict

audio addict said:


> Thanks for taking one for the team
> 
> I always thought one of the reasons the RSA amps; portable as well as the big ones, sounded excellent (at least to me) was the large focus on the power supplies.




I should have been more transparent as I have several RSA amps; tube, solid state and portable.


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## doctorjazz

Ah, I could see right through you (get it!!!!!)


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## jamato8

Well I have the micro running on the Mojo Audio V ps now. Will report as it burns in. Mojo states that 800 hours are needed for a total burn-in time for the caps etc. The PS is very heavy. It has a large transformer inside and stainless fittings with a .125 aluminum case. I was surprised by the weight though.


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## saidentary

jamato8 said:


> Well I have the micro running on the Mojo Audio V ps now. Will report as it burns in. Mojo states that 800 hours are needed for a total burn-in time for the caps etc. The PS is very heavy. It has a large transformer inside and stainless fittings with a .125 aluminum case. I was surprised by the weight though.


 

 Have you listened to it yet or just doing burning in?


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## doctorjazz

Please don't tell us it's the best thing you've ever heard...


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## jamato8

saidentary said:


> Have you listened to it yet or just doing burning in?


 

 Sure, I am listening to it. Sounds good out of the box. I was told it did not sound good until a few hundred hours on it so shall see. I would have to a little A/B right now to tell if there is much of a difference but I want at least a day on it first to let some things settle but as described, it goes up and down and gets good around 300 hours then 500 more for the caps and everything to fully form and so on. 
  
 Well I can say that I am hearing a cleaner sound and even my regular CD rips (if well or decently recorded) sound better. I will have to do some real comparisons though as I do not want to mislead anyone. 
  
 Weird, well not but I was doing some reading and I realized the music was sounding so direct and 3D. A strange (good but I am not used to it this much) space around voice and instruments like. Not a bad weird or strange, just not used to it. I don't even have my best tubes in the micro for the output. 
  
 I don't even feel like describing what I am hearing. Wow. It is something that has to be heard to be believed because if I tried to write what I am hearing, and was someone else reading it, I might think it was BS and exaggerations. And the PS isn't even broken in. . . . I hope it doesn't take some weird turn but as of right now . . Listening to Will Nelson, Star Dust, in DSD and have heard it too many times but this is unreal and like I never heard it. 
  
 edit: the sound has coasted back down in the 3D and imaging. Not what it was yesterday. Will see how the burn in goes.


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## jamato8

.


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## kiertijai

any update on the performances of Joule V power supply?
 thanks


----------



## saidentary

jamato8 said:


> .


 

 Is this a code for the Little Dot headphone amplifier? I don't get the point.  Perhaps it represents an earlier or later period in your life.


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## jamato8

saidentary said:


> Is this a code for the Little Dot headphone amplifier? I don't get the point.  Perhaps it represents an earlier or later period in your life.


 

 I made a statement that I retracted as I need to do further research. 
  
 The micro puts 450 volts on the plates of the 6SN7 types. Tubes actually rated for this are the GTA and GTB version, any before that, the GT and so on from the 1940's, is rated for 300 volts. David Berning has stated he has never seen a problem with using the earlier tubes and it was more of the tolerances of the tubes that was tightened up that allowed the higher voltage and wattage but I still have my concerns. I do know that the 6F8G sounds very fine in the circuit but they are all rated for 300 volts max on the plates.


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## jamato8

kiertijai said:


> any update on the performances of Joule V power supply?
> thanks


 

 At 50 hours or so it does go back down hill regarding the sound. The magic leaves. I am around 90 hours now and it sounds better but not the magical sound I had around 24. I expect this with burn in but I have had things do so-so, some hours later sound unbelievable and then coast down in sound, never to return to the refinement and very fine rendition of sound that had been experienced. So I wait and let it run.


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## saidentary

jamato8 said:


> I made a statement that I retracted as I need to do further research.


 
 Sorry, just making puns: point, dot, period, etc.   (I do that sometimes...)


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## jamato8

saidentary said:


> Sorry, just making puns: point, dot, period, etc.   (I do that sometimes...)


 

 I know but a . would leave a ? in someone's mind. And how many ? do we need floating around? Too many I say! With all that said; I could go further but will stop.


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## saidentary

jamato8 said:


> At 50 hours or so it does go back down hill regarding the sound. The magic leaves. I am around 90 hours now and it sounds better but not the magical sound I had around 24. I expect this with burn in but I have had things do so-so, some hours later sound unbelievable and then coast down in sound, never to return to the refinement and very fine rendition of sound that had been experienced. So I wait and let it run.


 
 Forgive me if this has been addressed before, but I've wondered about this for a while:  _Has anyone reported the results of metallurgic studies at the light microscopic level for electronic parts (cables, wires, etc.) at various stages in the "burn in" process under controlled conditions? _ _More specifically, are there any microscopically visible changes in the structure of metals during the burning in process? _ This is a knowledgeable group; someone probably knows the answer to this.


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## jamato8

saidentary said:


> Forgive me if this has been addressed before, but I've wondered about this for a while:  _Has anyone reported the results of metallurgic studies at the light microscopic level for electronic parts (cables, wires, etc.) at various stages in the "burn in" process under controlled conditions? _ _More specifically, are there any microscopically visible changes in the structure of metals during the burning in process? _ This is a knowledgeable group; someone probably knows the answer to this.


 

 There have been some studies regarding dielectric but I don't know of any studies on the changes to electron transfer and changes to the metallurgy. Some have stated that it is beyond what we have at present to measure/view this. I hope someone can chime in. Also it would be expensive but maybe Tera Labs or one of the cable companies that has deep enough pockets to finance a real study. A good dissertation subject.


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## jamato8

One thing that is apparent to me now is that while the micro Zotl maintains the many positives of extremely good tube implementation, like a more 3D presentation, layering and realistic sound and it does not fail by giving the mushy bass (the bass is as tight as any solid state I have heard) nor the warmth that for me, gets tiresome and glosses over everything and sucks the life out of the music. I also find that I am around 12 to 1 o'clock on the control, max, which gives a lot more room for the music to grow as I have not found it to compress or soft clip with any music, no matter how dynamic or large scale.


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## jamato8

Wow, I am posting to myself. lol 
  
 I am using some Sylvania great glass (the coating inside the glass) from the 1940's, 6F8G with great success. Great transparency, dynamics and layering with the HE1000 and using the Mojo V power supply. This Mojo goes up and down as it burns in (caps forming etc.). I am still listening to a lot of DSD via the Hugo (DoP) because you can really pick out the differences in sound with the amp and setup and I find it is hard to listen to some music do to the lack of spacial cues, when you can hear them in DSD but there is plenty of DSD out there that isn't very good also. For the IC from the Hugo to the micro I am using my own pure silver IC (99.99995). 
  
 I do find I like the coated tubes more than the clear glass. In the past I did not like the GE grey glass and still don't in 6SN7 but for some reason in the 6F8G they are fine. I have the round plate black glass also and the grey, IMO, is as good.


----------



## doctorjazz

I have moved the ZOTL to my main system to see what it can really do. This consists of Fully Tricked Out Linn LP12 with upgraded power supply, Lyra cartridge, , Ittok tonearm, Pro-Ject Tube Box 6, then some expensive interconnects the guy who refurbished my Linn sold (I forget which) into the MicroZOTL, then out the the HE-1000. Man get clarity, space, soundstage, detailed bass, rich tonal color and 3d instruments/voices. Haven't been able to disconnect this set up since I did it a few days ago. Now, for CD, my preamp single ended line out might work into the ZOTL, haven't tried it (have the PeachTree GrandPre X, has well regarded asynchronous DA converter built in...using it balanced now to a Krell KSA-150, but the single ended outputs would work into the ZOTL, I'd guess. Out of good interconnects, though, have to play around and see what I can come up with. So far, every time I connect to better sources, sound just gets better and better (stock tubes, not up for rolling in this early part of the tube adventure). Got good results from my PC into Vaunix Lab Brick/LH Labs Geek Out Special Edition, into the ZOTL, but I think the vinyl sound is even better (and, I find vinyl such a PIA that I geneally reserve it for moments here and there; think I've listened to the turntable more the past3-4 days than I have in the past 3-4 months...


----------



## dpump

jamato8 said:


> Wow, I am posting to myself. lol
> 
> I am using some Sylvania great glass (the coating inside the glass) from the 1940's, 6F8G with great success. Great transparency, dynamics and layering with the HE1000 and using the Mojo V power supply. This Mojo goes up and down as it burns in (caps forming etc.). I am still listening to a lot of DSD via the Hugo (DoP) because you can really pick out the differences in sound with the amp and setup and I find it is hard to listen to some music do to the lack of spacial cues, when you can hear them in DSD but there is plenty of DSD out there that isn't very good also. For the IC from the Hugo to the micro I am using my own pure silver IC (99.99995).
> 
> I do find I like the coated tubes more than the clear glass. In the past I did not like the GE grey glass and still don't in 6SN7 but for some reason in the 6F8G they are fine. I have the round plate black glass also and the grey, IMO, is as good.


 

 Where did you get your adaptors for the 6F8G tubes? Thanks.


----------



## doctorjazz

@jamato8
Still not getting a sense of how you feel about the Mojo power supply and the ZOTL...have you got a sense of it as of yet?
Thanks


----------



## jamato8

doctorjazz said:


> @jamato8
> Still not getting a sense of how you feel about the Mojo power supply and the ZOTL...have you got a sense of it as of yet?
> Thanks


 

 Benjamin said it takes 300 hours to start hearing how it does for the sound and 800 to be fully burned in. It was up and down for a while but sounded better now. With the investment that it is, I want to be sure on my impressions before making an solid statement but right now I am getting a very, very realistic, dynamic and for lack of a better word, clean sound. All music, not sterile and smooth but with edge when needed. The HE1000 do not lack any dynamics at all, none. I would not want less dynamics but would not want more.


----------



## drbluenewmexico

jamato8 said:


> Benjamin said it takes 300 hours to start hearing how it does for the sound and 800 to be fully burned in. It was up and down for a while but sounded better now. With the investment that it is, I want to be sure on my impressions before making an solid statement but right now I am getting a very, very realistic, dynamic and for lack of a better word, clean sound. All music, not sterile and smooth but with edge when needed. The HE1000 do not lack any dynamics at all, none. I would not want less dynamics but would not want more.


 

 I'm still using a  borrowed JOULE ONE, all burned in,  from Mojo Audio to power my Zotl. The Zotl feeds off it
 like a hungry bear....not a slight difference on electromagnetic phones, makes them rock with more texture
 body and bigger soundstage!!!.


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## jamato8

Ok, the Mojo V is starting to kick it into overdrive. Finally it has come back. At this point it is transforming the amp and whatever you hook up to the amp.


----------



## doctorjazz

Cool (of course, I now have to take a contract out on you  )


----------



## richard51

i am very interested in this thread......in the microZOTL and in the mojo......go on guys and thank for sharing your passion !


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## jamato8

The HE1000 sound even faster now. They change so easily with everything upstream from them. So the micro and V are doing the job. Extremely tight sound, in a good way. Super fast, dimensional, layered and tight articulated bass. I hope it sticks, will see. I know Mojo said that the PS hits its total peak at 800 hours. I am around 250 or 275 and I would say it took 150 to come back into really good sound. But again, I have to see if it stays. I am using some black glass, flat plate 68FG tubes. What is interesting is the noise floor has dropped to the point where I can hear the tape sound on Analog recordings very easily and even digital transfer info but not to a discredit of the music. Has to be heard to be appreciated but you can not judge the PS until you have many hours on it. IMO


----------



## jamato8

Well today the sound is holding up for the combination of the micro and the Mojo V power supply. It would be nice to have someone hear the combination for a second opinion. I can express, put down in words, to try and convey what I am hearing but it comes from one person and after a while validation from others would be nice. I don't need validation of what I am hearing but I don't want to be appearing to hype this combination.


----------



## doctorjazz

Go ahead and hype...having to save up to go for this, maybe sell some gear (anyone want a ton of not-getting-much-use gear?)


----------



## jamato8

doctorjazz said:


> Go ahead and hype...having to save up to go for this, maybe sell some gear (anyone want a ton of not-getting-much-use gear?)


 

 That isn't the best way to advertise it. lol 
  
 What I am also waiting for is a a mostly burned in, according to Mojo, power supply so I can AB it with the stock ps, which I don't enjoy doing: the switching back and forth, very boring. But as long as I have now listened to the ups and downs of the Mojo and now on the upward trend, listening back and forth for a short time should be enough.


----------



## xenophilic

jamato8 said:


> Well today the sound is holding up for the combination of the micro and the Mojo V power supply. It would be nice to have someone hear the combination for a second opinion. I can express, put down in words, to try and convey what I am hearing but it comes from one person and after a while validation from others would be nice. I don't need validation of what I am hearing but I don't want to be appearing to hype this combination.


 
  
 If we all agree to take it as one data point and not as Truth, can you share your opinion (while you look for others to listen and give their opinions later on)?


----------



## doctorjazz

jamato8 said:


> doctorjazz said:
> 
> 
> > Go ahead and hype...having to save up to go for this, maybe sell some gear (anyone want a ton of not-getting-much-use gear?)
> ...




I know, actually haven't put anything up for sale yet, though I have stuff not-getting-much-use, not because it isn't good stuff, just because I have TOO MUCH STUFF! I've been living my life with the basic premise, very American, that he who ends with the MOST STUFF WINS!!! Great stuff, like the HE-560, Shure 1540, and too much to get in to right now basically collects dust (the HE-1000 has something to do with this as well). One of these days, I'll get my act together and connect PayPal to my bank account, get the boxes ready, and have a "yard sale"...
Am really interested in the power supply, though, maybe spring for it when my wife's not looking...


----------



## jamato8

doctorjazz said:


> I know, actually haven't put anything up for sale yet, though I have stuff not-getting-much-use, not because it isn't good stuff, just because I have TOO MUCH STUFF! I've been living my life with the basic premise, very American, that he who ends with the MOST STUFF WINS!!! Great stuff, like the HE-560, Shure 1540, and too much to get in to right now basically collects dust (the HE-1000 has something to do with this as well). One of these days, I'll get my act together and connect PayPal to my bank account, get the boxes ready, and have a "yard sale"...
> Am really interested in the power supply, though, maybe spring for it when my wife's not looking...


 

 It is curious how this PS, the Mojo V affects the amp. It is like super instant power. There is no let down at any time. When the music is extremely dynamic, the amp is super fast, no loss of dynamics or response at Any frequency. Bass is extremely well controlled and things like cymbals sound true and clean. I am told, as I have mentioned, that it improves more and I am not even at the half way point. The V doubles the price of the micro but the PS has often been an off the shelf solution and to me, it is the most important part of an am or dac or dap because without it, what do you have? The AC musical signal travels on the DC and the better the DC, the better the sound, with everything else being up to snuff.


----------



## doctorjazz

True, I was a bit surprised at the power supply when I got the Zotl, expected more (my Ray Samuels HR-2 seems to be ALL power supply). Not that heft is everything, but I suspected more could be done in that regards.
On an unrelated note, set up at present...Fully loaded Linn LP12/Ittock/Lyra Delos/Pro-Ject Tube Box S/MicroZOTL2/Norne Zoetic Cable/HE-1000. Man, really sweet sounding rig...


----------



## jamato8

I ordered the Whiplash TWau cable in the modular design. Expensive but in the modular, I can now have my other phones wired with the Y done and I won't need the rest as the modular disconnects at the Y. This will tell me even more about the micro and Mojo as I have the TWau on the TH900 and it did very good for the sound they produce.


----------



## drbluenewmexico

doctorjazz said:


> True, I was a bit surprised at the power supply when I got the Zotl, expected more (my Ray Samuels HR-2 seems to be ALL power supply). Not that heft is everything, but I suspected more could be done in that regards.
> On an unrelated note, set up at present...Fully loaded Linn LP12/Ittock/Lyra Delos/Pro-Ject Tube Box S/MicroZOTL2/Norne Zoetic Cable/HE-1000. Man, really sweet sounding rig...


 

 you are approaching Audio Nirvana.......keep your head up and facing forwards.....we are all excited for you!!!!
 seriously, CONGRATULATIONS, you are stretching the envelope and going where no man has ever gone....
 when you get there, save a place for me!!!!


----------



## drbluenewmexico

drbluenewmexico said:


>


 


doctorjazz said:


> True, I was a bit surprised at the power supply when I got the Zotl, expected more (my Ray Samuels HR-2 seems to be ALL power supply). Not that heft is everything, but I suspected more could be done in that regards.
> On an unrelated note, set up at present...Fully loaded Linn LP12/Ittock/Lyra Delos/Pro-Ject Tube Box S/MicroZOTL2/Norne Zoetic Cable/HE-1000. Man, really sweet sounding rig...


 

 Well kids a new breakthrough with the Zotl2:
 Benjamin from Mojo Audio got my hands on his new HIGH CURRENT power chord for my borrowed JOULE ONE power supply for  my Zotl2.  the improvement was slight over the previous sound with the old power cable.  Then BAM this morning, after about 100 hours of burn in use, the sound just exploded to a higher level, the soundstage expanded,the
 guitar on Buddy Guy's new BORN TO PLAY THE GUITAR album just became FEROCIOUS!  the drums kicked butt, and the the vocals seared my brain. Im listening throughAudio Technica W1000 cherrywood full size phones, and I've never heard them sound this good until this morning, like a full concert JBL pro audio set up in my head. wow,if you have the JOULE power supply be sure to contact Ben about upgrading that cable, be patient burning it in, and fasten your seat belt!!! the improvement with a JOULE V will be astronomical!!!


----------



## jamato8

drbluenewmexico said:


> Well kids a new breakthrough with the Zotl2:
> Benjamin from Mojo Audio got my hands on his new HIGH CURRENT power chord for my borrowed JOULE ONE power supply for  my Zotl2.  the improvement was slight over the previous sound with the old power cable.  Then BAM this morning, after about 100 hours of burn in use, the sound just exploded to a higher level, the soundstage expanded,the
> guitar on Buddy Guy's new BORN TO PLAY THE GUITAR album just became FEROCIOUS!  the drums kicked butt, and the the vocals seared my brain. Im listening throughAudio Technica W1000 cherrywood full size phones, and I've never heard them sound this good until this morning, like a full concert JBL pro audio set up in my head. wow,if you have the JOULE power supply be sure to contact Ben about upgrading that cable, be patient burning it in, and fasten your seat belt!!! the improvement with a JOULE V will be astronomical!!!


 

 What is the difference in cables? 
  
 I contacted Benjamin and the cable I have have is the same. A little more to go on the burn in for my V. Can anyone say, black backgrounds, dynamic, and just plain fast? A total lack of any type of grain to the sound. The power supply does an excellent job.


----------



## crazychile

So with all this talk about upgraded power supplies....
  
 Has anyone tried the Uptone JS-2 with their microZOTL 2? It has dual outputs and still costs nearly a grand but I've been considering this as a future purchase to use with a headless MacMini and the Zotl2.


----------



## jamato8

crazychile said:


> So with all this talk about upgraded power supplies....
> 
> Has anyone tried the Uptone JS-2 with their microZOTL 2? It has dual outputs and still costs nearly a grand but I've been considering this as a future purchase to use with a headless MacMini and the Zotl2.


 

 I hadn't heard of it. Looks interesting. Nice to have 2 outputs. It could become the battle of the power supplies instead of battle of the amps.


----------



## doctorjazz

Same here, hasn't heard of it, I am waiting for a Regen, which is backed up in orders, think I should get it sometime in August. Trying to hold out on spending for either, but I think I may have to bite the bullet, sell sine stuff, and but something like this (to add more confusion to my situation, I should be getting the Liquid Carbon toys month as well...)


----------



## jamato8

doctorjazz said:


> Same here, hasn't heard of it, I am waiting for a Regen, which is backed up in orders, think I should get it sometime in August. Trying to hold out on spending for either, but I think I may have to bite the bullet, sell sine stuff, and but something like this (to add more confusion to my situation, I should be getting the Liquid Carbon toys month as well...)


 

 Ordered the LC as well, like I need another amp. Too much stuff now, way too much but the LC looks like a nice amp for travel (transportable) and to have the balanced also is a plus, which is the only reason I bought it.


----------



## doctorjazz

Same, got my cable terminated balanced for the LC, with adapters for the Pono and single end sources. End of Brokedown Palace, "doo doo doo...", lovely!


----------



## crazychile

doctorjazz said:


> Same here, hasn't heard of it, I am waiting for a Regen, which is backed up in orders, think I should get it sometime in August. Trying to hold out on spending for either, but I think I may have to bite the bullet, sell sine stuff, and but something like this (to add more confusion to my situation, I should be getting the Liquid Carbon toys month as well...)




I've had a Regen for a couple of weeks now and am pretty impressed. I'd be surprised if you don't like it. Given that all their products (all 3 of 'em) get almost no bad reviews, I thought I'd ask about their power supply.

First I need to sell my Lyr 2 and buy the microZOTL.....


----------



## doctorjazz

Hmmm, sounds interesting...more expensive than the LH labs LPS, but more flexible (the LH is fixed voltage, if I'm correct)...it is in the range of the Mojo, gotta sell some of my babies, but, it's (sob!) too (sob!) painful (sob!)...will they have a good home? Will they get their cables and components pampered (but NOT spoiled!)? It's all too much to bear....


----------



## doctorjazz

crazychile said:


> doctorjazz said:
> 
> 
> > Same here, hasn't heard of it, I am waiting for a Regen, which is backed up in orders, think I should get it sometime in August. Trying to hold out on spending for either, but I think I may have to bite the bullet, sell sine stuff, and but something like this (to add more confusion to my situation, I should be getting the Liquid Carbon toys month as well...)
> ...




Did you get rid of the Koss 950? These amps wouldn't be for that, need an electrostatic amp, as I'm sure you know. Am I the last Koss holdout (it's because I can't let go of anything...I'm going to find myself on one of those sad TV specials about horders, where 10 police and firemen had to come in and find a way out of the apartment, it was so loaded with stuff


----------



## crazychile

doctorjazz said:


> crazychile said:
> 
> 
> > doctorjazz said:
> ...


 

 I still have the '950s and plan to hold onto them. I have a separate amp from Mjolnir Audio (Birgir) as an upgrade to the E/90. My plan is to eventually upgrade to a pair of SR-007 or SR-009s, but lately I've been distracted by the thought of the microZOTL and maybe trying a pair of Fostex TH-900s with it. I really like electrostatic 'phones, but I probably spend equal amounts of time with a pair of Audio Technicas and Sennheisers as well. It kinda sucks having to spend money on 2 systems, but eventually I'll get them both to a place that I'm happy with.


----------



## doctorjazz

I got the Stax 323 as an upgrade to the amp supplied be Koss...sine find it not to be better, I think it is better sounding (though I believe a 3K electrostatic amp must be much better, but I haven't heard one yet). When my 2 main cans were the Koss and the HE-560, I went back and forth between them. The 560 had much better highs, better bass, was more open sounding. But the Koss had a speed, a way of presenting and letting go of notes, that was much better than the 560, made it sound clunky (in comparison). Since getting the HEK, though, haven't touched the Koss or the 560. Probably should see if the Koss still holds its own in the areas it's strong in against the HEK. One of these days...


----------



## crazychile

doctorjazz said:


> I got the Stax 323 as an upgrade to the amp supplied be Koss...sine find it not to be better, I think it is better sounding (though I believe a 3K electrostatic amp must be much better, but I haven't heard one yet). When my 2 main cans were the Koss and the HE-560, I went back and forth between them. The 560 had much better highs, better bass, was more open sounding. But the Koss had a speed, a way of presenting and letting go of notes, that was much better than the 560, made it sound clunky (in comparison). Since getting the HEK, though, haven't touched the Koss or the 560. Probably should see if the Koss still holds its own in the areas it's strong in against the HEK. One of these days...


 
  
 The Mjolnir Exstata amp I bought is supposed be at a similar level as the 323 or maybe a little better since Birgir had upgraded the PS and some other stuff. I havent heard a 323. The Exstata was a slight improvement over the E/90, but made me realize that the stock Koss amp wasn't really the issue. I find the Koss' to be a little too rolled off at the top end for me which is why I started thinking about buying an upper level Stax. At least I have a decent starter amp now for when I make that move. But I really do love the speed and midrange clarity of the Koss ESPs.
  
 Until then I want to focus more on improving the dynamic cans system and the microZOTL is sounding like something that I'd really like. The Lyr 2 isn't bad but it doesn't quite have the mid range magic I'm looking for. It has tons of power, but now that I sold my AKG 702s, it's a little overkill.


----------



## doctorjazz

I'm not sure you'll get more "midrange magic" from the ZOTL than the Lyr, I haven't heard the Lyr, but isn't it the typical "tube" sounding kind of amp. The ZOTL is open, clear in the mids but not lush like the classic tube amp (a bit like the Koss Stat midrange you mention). 
The Koss is rolled off at the top, mostly used the 560 when those were the 2 contenders, now the HEK is King!



crazychile said:


> doctorjazz said:
> 
> 
> > I got the Stax 323 as an upgrade to the amp supplied be Koss...sine find it not to be better, I think it is better sounding (though I believe a 3K electrostatic amp must be much better, but I haven't heard one yet). When my 2 main cans were the Koss and the HE-560, I went back and forth between them. The 560 had much better highs, better bass, was more open sounding. But the Koss had a speed, a way of presenting and letting go of notes, that was much better than the 560, made it sound clunky (in comparison). Since getting the HEK, though, haven't touched the Koss or the 560. Probably should see if the Koss still holds its own in the areas it's strong in against the HEK. One of these days...
> ...


----------



## crazychile

The Lyr 2 is not a typical tube sounding amp. I think the Schiit Valhalla has more of  a traditional tube sound.
  
 Magic midrange probably wasn't the best descriptor of what I'm looking for. But if the microZOTL comes close to the Koss ESPs midrange I should be happy.


----------



## drbluenewmexico

The MicroZotl2 kills it with dynamic cans.  I'm listening regularly with ATH W1000 cherrywood cans, and its like having
 a JBL live sound system in my head with the Zotl powered by a Joule 1 power supply and high current cable. My
 electromagnetic phones sound fabulous, detailed and linear, but the dynamics really sound more musical to me with
 a thicker and more life like sound even if they have less detail.  I listen to both acoustic and electric blues a lot, and
 its kind of the difference between my planar Apogee Divas powered by Krell reference class A massive amps vs
 my Zu audio supersuperlfys powered by a midsize tube amp.  The Zu system rocks it for blues.  The Zotl rocks the
 dynamic headphones in the same way...


----------



## doctorjazz

As Blue mentioned, the ZOTL is more about clarity and detail in the mids, and an open wide soundstage. It is like solid state, but more open, less grain, if you will.


----------



## jamato8

doctorjazz said:


> As Blue mentioned, the ZOTL is more about clarity and detail in the mids, and an open wide soundstage. It is like solid state, but more open, less grain, if you will.


 

 Having used tube equipment and solid state for years, to me, the micro takes the best of both. I would agree with you, no grain, to my ears, and a very large natural soundstage. Very transparent. I am using the Mojo V ps.


----------



## richard51

more i read about the ZOTL more i want one....i had read everything on the net...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  if you had money its simple you buy for example a viva egoista amp...its not possible for me... I dream of a battle between the two...I can afford a microzotl in some months...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 perhaps a year...


----------



## saidentary

richard51 said:


> more i read about the ZOTL more i want one....i had read everything on the net...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 The MicroZOTL 2 appears to be a phenomenal value.  The egoista appears to be a phenomenal amplifier, based on the one review I read.  As you know, there is _generally_ a positive correlation between increasingly priced components and performance.  However, that correlation is _*not*_ linear.  Sometimes the correlation doesn't even exist.  While the egoista would be EXPECTED to outperform the MicroZOTL 2, there are no guarantess of ANY of the following:
  
 1. That you, personally, would prefer the sound of the egoista (again, considered likely but not guaranteed)
 2. That if you did prefer the egoista, you'd feel the price difference was justified, even if you could easily afford it
 3. That after purchasing the egoista, you still wouldn't wonder about a different amplifier like one of the Eddie Current models, or a Wells Head Trip, or a Pinnacle, or something else.
  
 You may find that, once a certain threshold of "magic" has been reached, there isn't that much room for improvement.  You may reach a point where, yes, there may be better, but what you have is SO good that it's good enough, and that feeling of satisfaction lasts well beyond what would be typical for the "new toy" phenomenon. 
  
 Maybe I'm unusual among audiophiles, but generally my pattern has been to wait until I encounter something that blows me away *when I hear it personally.*  I have tended to recognize that phenomenon when it occurs for me, which has been about 4 times over the last 30 years or so.  Maybe this will happen for you.  And it might be less expensive than you think.  If I may be so bold as to offer this piece of (unsolicited, yeah I know) advice:  Don't automatically assume that the most expensive item is the best.  Nowhere have I seen this point exemplified more starkly than with high end loudspeakers.  Once I found myself shocked at the sound quality of an expensive pair of loudspeakers when listening to them at their company headquarters--but I wasn't shocked in a good way.


----------



## richard51

saidentary said:


> The MicroZOTL 2 appears to be a phenomenal value.  The egoista appears to be a phenomenal amplifier, based on the one review I read.  As you know, there is _generally_ a positive correlation between increasingly priced components and performance.  However, that correlation is _*not*_ linear.  Sometimes the correlation doesn't even exist.  While the egoista would be EXPECTED to outperform the MicroZOTL 2, there are no guarantess of ANY of the following:
> 
> 1. That you, personally, would prefer the sound of the egoista (again, considered likely but not guaranteed)
> 2. That if you did prefer the egoista, you'd feel the price difference was justified, even if you could easily afford it
> ...


 

 thank you i appreciated very much your remark.... your words sound very wise to me, and its interesting for me if the ZOTL is one of this 4 moments in your life....Do you know if the he6 is well driven by the microZOTL ?


----------



## saidentary

richard51 said:


> thank you i appreciated very much your remark.... your words sound very wise to me, and its interesting for me if the ZOTL is one of this 4 moments in your life....Do you know if the he6 is well driven by the microZOTL ?


 
 I'm glad you didn't take my remarks as preachy.  That wasn't my intent at all.   The *other three moments* were:
 1. Audio Physic Caldera (the OLD, 3 box model), sometime in the mid to late 1980s. (My Audiogon name is mdhoover)
 2. Intuitive Design Summit Loudspeakers.
 3. HiFiMAN HE-1000s.
  
 With respect to the* driving the HE6,* here's a cut and paste of what kiertijai said, with a link to his original full post on this thread:
  
"I tried the headphone out of microzotl2 today.  To my surprise the microzotl2 can drive the HE6 and Abyss AB1266 very well.
I only used 1-2 o'clock for Abyss AB1266 and 2 o'clock for HE6 playing DSD file of Dana Winners.
However the headphone out of microzotl2 can not drive AKG K1000 well enough even at 3 o'clock and if I turned on more volume nothing changed. I could drive the AKG K1000 very well with significantly wider soundstage only when I used the speaker out." -kiertijai


----------



## richard51

youre very interesting ... thank you very much... to all this information and foremost your personal experience...i appreciated that very much...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 best regards to you


----------



## doctorjazz

I didn't think the speaker taps had more power than the headphone out, just that you could run 2 speakers off them (seems logical there wouldn't be extra power hiding somewhere). Could be wrong, of course.

Easy to get caught up in the Rat race, get better stuff, then want and get better stuff than that-hey, sounds like my life! Good to stop and smell the tubes (????+) sometimes


----------



## richard51

doctorjazz said:


> I didn't think the speaker taps had more power than the headphone out, just that you could run 2 speakers off them (seems logical there wouldn't be extra power hiding somewhere). Could be wrong, of course.
> 
> Easy to get caught up in the Rat race, get better stuff, then want and get better stuff than that-hey, sounds like my life! Good to stop and smell the tubes (????+) sometimes


 

 i look not for the better gear in the absolute sense, i look for the better gear for the price.... i smell that the microZOTL is that....And like wise Saidentary said : «You may reach a point where, yes, there may be better, but what you have is SO good that it's good enough, and that feeling of satisfaction lasts well beyond what would be typical for the "new toy" phenomenon.»
 Like you i want to smell the tubes.....


----------



## jamato8

doctorjazz said:


> I didn't think the speaker taps had more power than the headphone out, just that you could run 2 speakers off them (seems logical there wouldn't be extra power hiding somewhere). Could be wrong, of course.
> 
> Easy to get caught up in the Rat race, get better stuff, then want and get better stuff than that-hey, sounds like my life! Good to stop and smell the tubes (????+) sometimes


 

 Or to buy more expensive power supplies. lol I think the micro, compared to other amps is up there with some of the finest.


----------



## richard51

jamato8 said:


> Or to buy more expensive power supplies. lol I think the micro, compared to other amps is up there with some of the finest.


 

 its a virus... I trust you too
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 much....i want to buy the supply with the Zotl in one year i hope....


----------



## jamato8

Ok, with the Mojo V power supply and some VT99 tubes, the micro just does it right. Excellent sound and I truly doubt there is anything better. Maybe different but I get it all. I get depth, solid bass, as deep as it is recorded, transparency, width and depth. The frequency extremes all are there and to my ear, perfect. I am using the Whiplash TWau cable, which also upped the sound quality but that means it is only delivering what the micro is putting out. I am feeding the micro with the Hugo doing everything from 16/44 to DSD. Anything that is well recorded, and even some that is not, comes across as the most important thing. . . music!


----------



## doctorjazz

OK, (grudging sigh...), I guess I'm going to have to sell something (or risk divorce  ), and check this out myself, sounds promising. 



jamato8 said:


> Ok, with the Mojo V power supply and some VT99 tubes, the micro just does it right. Excellent sound and I truly doubt there is anything better. Maybe different but I get it all. I get depth, solid bass, as deep as it is recorded, transparency, width and depth. The frequency extremes all are there and to my ear, perfect. I am using the Whiplash TWau cable, which also upped the sound quality but that means it is only delivering what the micro is putting out. I am feeding the micro with the Hugo doing everything from 16/44 to DSD. Anything that is well recorded, and even some that is not, comes across as the most important thing. . . music!


----------



## drbluenewmexico

doctorjazz said:


> I didn't think the speaker taps had more power than the headphone out, just that you could run 2 speakers off them (seems logical there wouldn't be extra power hiding somewhere). Could be wrong, of course.
> 
> Easy to get caught up in the Rat race, get better stuff, then want and get better stuff than that-hey, sounds like my life! Good to stop and smell the tubes (????+) sometimes


 

 WELCOME to the Oasis of Personal Satisfaction, an Island between Past Purchases and Future Desires, where the gear disappears into
 the music and your wishes have been granted, the Genie is back in the lamp, and you are Satisfied!! 
 enjoy your hiatus from if only i had...or could try...or maybe that new one...dat new technology.... and listening, totally relaxed, you are
 happy where you are. yes, stop and smell the tubes....
 But then you open head-fi and you are streaming some music and they play the Stone's I can't no Satisfaction...and then.......


----------



## drbluenewmexico

jamato8 said:


> Ok, with the Mojo V power supply and some VT99 tubes, the micro just does it right. Excellent sound and I truly doubt there is anything better. Maybe different but I get it all. I get depth, solid bass, as deep as it is recorded, transparency, width and depth. The frequency extremes all are there and to my ear, perfect. I am using the Whiplash TWau cable, which also upped the sound quality but that means it is only delivering what the micro is putting out. I am feeding the micro with the Hugo doing everything from 16/44 to DSD. Anything that is well recorded, and even some that is not, comes across as the most important thing. . . music!


 

 Congratulations JAMATO 8 and on reaching a Nirvana level of SQ!  I'm listening to through the MicroZotl2  fed by a MOJO AUDIO NOS direct coupled DAC, MOJO AUDIO interconnects and a MOJO Audio JOULE 1 power supply and high current power cable from MOJO. all feeding ATH W1000 cherry wood phones..
 Streaming blues on Tidal, Buddy Guy NEVER sounded this good before except live...im ignoring my Apogee Planar DIVAs and ZU audio soul superbly speakers with Krell reference electronics to immerse myself in the MicroZotl glorious sound quality!!!


----------



## drbluenewmexico

jamato8 said:


> Ok, with the Mojo V power supply and some VT99 tubes, the micro just does it right. Excellent sound and I truly doubt there is anything better. Maybe different but I get it all. I get depth, solid bass, as deep as it is recorded, transparency, width and depth. The frequency extremes all are there and to my ear, perfect. I am using the Whiplash TWau cable, which also upped the sound quality but that means it is only delivering what the micro is putting out. I am feeding the micro with the Hugo doing everything from 16/44 to DSD. Anything that is well recorded, and even some that is not, comes across as the most important thing. . . music!


 

 Benjamin, head of Mojo Audio suggested that if your Hugo can be powered from the second  power output on the JOULE V you could boost
 your level of performance of the system even higher.  I have no idea if this is possible or not or electrically feasible for the Hugo, but its an
 interesting possibility since the JOULE V power supply has two outputs......


----------



## doctorjazz

I'm totally out of my league here, but wouldn't it depends on the voltage the Hugo wants to see?


----------



## smial1966

Please proceed with extreme caution if you're thinking of trying this, as reading the Hugo thread, a couple of owners have inadvertently fried their Hugo's by using aftermarket power supplies.  
  
 Quote:


drbluenewmexico said:


> Benjamin, head of Mojo Audio suggested that if your Hugo can be powered from the second  power output on the JOULE V you could boost
> your level of performance of the system even higher.  I have no idea if this is possible or not or electrically feasible for the Hugo, but its an
> interesting possibility since the JOULE V power supply has two outputs......


----------



## jamato8

drbluenewmexico said:


> Benjamin, head of Mojo Audio suggested that if your Hugo can be powered from the second  power output on the JOULE V you could boost
> your level of performance of the system even higher.  I have no idea if this is possible or not or electrically feasible for the Hugo, but its an
> interesting possibility since the JOULE V power supply has two outputs......


 

 The V has either 1 or 2 output depending upon how you order it. Chord has said that the Hugo is immune to the PS but I have plugged mine into my balanced AC line purifier (a special 50 pound toroid for this purpose and other things to clean up anything on the AC) and the sound did improve, using the wall wart that came with the Hugo.


----------



## jamato8

doctorjazz said:


> I'm totally out of my league here, but wouldn't it depends on the voltage the Hugo wants to see?


 

 Yes, you have to input the correct voltage and Benjamin can taylor the second output to whatever voltage you want.


----------



## jamato8

Listening to Rosanne Cash, 10 Song Demo. never, never heard it sound better. Wonderful.
  
 Day before yesterday I was getting some break up on the right driver of the HE1000. I figured there was something wrong with the headphones. It sounded just like a driver going bad. Then I tried my other headphones. I could hear it, but barely. The micro and the He1000 were resolving something that other headphones had a hard time with that was in the recording, distortion/clipping. It was actually a positive.


----------



## doctorjazz

Sometimes I find the same thing, when I think the amp/headphones are sounding bad, what I'm really noting is a bad sounding recording. It is actually a positive, I suppose, though it also kinda sucks. But, what are you going to do?


----------



## saidentary

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jamato8*
> 
> 
> "Ok, with the Mojo V power supply and some VT99 tubes, the micro just does it right. Excellent sound and I truly doubt there is anything better. Maybe different but I get it all. I get depth, solid bass, as deep as it is recorded, transparency, width and depth. The frequency extremes all are there and to my ear, perfect."


 This is a _remarkably_ strong statement from someone as experienced and (who I perceive to be) astute as you are.  I would also assume, based on having read only a limited sample your posts, that you are generally cautious about exaggerating, and that you don't post impulsively--you _*think*_ before you write something.  So people should take note of your opinion.  Perhaps you should consider a review, to corroborate and complement the fine review already written by Dr. Blue.  Just a thought.


----------



## doctorjazz

While you're at it, you need to get other LPS (LH Labs, Jays, UpTone Audio), take it for the team! I'm kidding of course, but it does highlight that it is pretty much impossible to compare the options around...I'm really trying to figure out how to get one of these (and not get a divorce included in the bargain).


----------



## jamato8

doctorjazz said:


> While you're at it, you need to get other LPS (LH Labs, Jays, UpTone Audio), take it for the team! I'm kidding of course, but it does highlight that it is pretty much impossible to compare the options around...I'm really trying to figure out how to get one of these (and not get a divorce included in the bargain).


 

 Cool, I am after that. But one favor, could you start an online fund raiser for me? I will be able then to give you guys all kinds of feedback. :^) 
  
 Listening to some DSD Mozart Sinfonia concertante-Allegro maestros with Podger on violin. Heaven. Such purity of sound, wonderful natural bass foundation and the violin, sounds like a violin. I used to play one, self taught, and I truly enjoy that animal.


----------



## drbluenewmexico

doctorjazz said:


> Sometimes I find the same thing, when I think the amp/headphones are sounding bad, what I'm really noting is a bad sounding recording. It is actually a positive, I suppose, though it also kinda sucks. But, what are you going to do?


 

 very true.....i can big differences in recording quality through the Zotl with Mojo NOS DAC and my "lowly" 400is. \all powered by a Joule 1.  the resolving power with HE1Ks and a Joule V will be much greater i imagine. the differences i hear are the amount of grain in a recording, whether it was recorded analogue or digital, microphonics in the recording and mastering differences in volume and tone.  i used to use my STAX lambda system and would hear such differences, but that is 20 years old and needs to be updated with new tubes, etc...but the degree of "peering into the sound structure" of recordings through the Zotl2! is fantastic...the really good recordings sound fabulous, while the not so good recordings are annoying.this is especially true for pop music and blues recordings on Tidal.   I listen with my ATH W1000 woodies a lot cause it kind averages out the differences and makes everything sound pretty good through them.  depends what you want, truth or pleasure!  and thanks Sedentary for your kind comment regarding my Zotl2 review


----------



## drbluenewmexico

doctorjazz said:


> While you're at it, you need to get other LPS (LH Labs, Jays, UpTone Audio), take it for the team! I'm kidding of course, but it does highlight that it is pretty much impossible to compare the options around...I'm really trying to figure out how to get one of these (and not get a divorce included in the bargain).





> avoid divorce!  get gear sent in plain brown wrappers....use off shore banking accounts...


----------



## jamato8

Listening to Beethoven's 9th on DSD and what a treat. Extremely dimensional and a wonderful tuneful flowing bass foundation. Male voice and choir are life like. You can feel/hear the hall space, it isn't a sound coming out of a cutout.


----------



## drbluenewmexico

jamato8 said:


> Listening to Beethoven's 9th on DSD and what a treat. Extremely dimensional and a wonderful tuneful flowing bass foundation. Male voice and choir are life like. You can feel/hear the hall space, it isn't a sound coming out of a cutout.


 

 You sound ZOTLed!  to coin a term........kind of like Shpongle, but by audio vibrations!!!!!!


----------



## saidentary

I took the MicroZOTL to the Chicago headphone meet on August 8th.  Here's a link to one of the posts on the meet's impressions thread:
  
Post by Zach, manufacturer of ZMF Audio Headphones


----------



## jamato8

Mark from Audio HiFi stated that a top that will accommodate tall tubes like the VT99 will be out in about 6 weeks.


----------



## aqsw

I really want to get back into tubes again. Was going for the Liquid Glass, but this looks very promising!!


----------



## drbluenewmexico

jamato8 said:


> Mark from Audio HiFi stated that a top that will accommodate tall tubes like the VT99 will be out in about 6 weeks.


 

 thats great to hear!  nice that a manufacturer is so quickly responsive to the desires and needs of the audio community!  BRAVO!!!


----------



## jamato8

drbluenewmexico said:


> thats great to hear!  nice that a manufacturer is so quickly responsive to the desires and needs of the audio community!  BRAVO!!!


 

 Yes. I just leave my top off but a top with round holes to accommodate the tall tubes will be nice. 
  
 I have been comparing the Mojo Audio V ps, that costs as much as the amp to the stock ps. The stock sounds good but you more hall sound and a melodic type of sound with the V. By melodic, I mean analogue like with sound coming from a blacker background. A little more reverb, due to a lower noise floor. I am listening with the HE1000. Yes, I have been going back and forth and just did on a Scott Hamilton, Charlie Byrd, The Charlie Byrd Trio, and there is more there in flow and analog type sound with the V.


----------



## saidentary

aqsw said:


> I really want to get back into tubes again. Was going for the Liquid Glass, but this looks very promising!!


 

 I'd very strongly recommend hearing it with whatever phones you have.  I haven't heard it, but I'm guessing the Liquid Glass is also superb.  I don't know how feasible for you it would be do A/B the two units.  I'll bet it would be a fun "task," however.


----------



## saidentary

jamato8 said:


> I have been comparing the Mojo Audio V ps, that costs as much as the amp to the stock ps. The stock sounds good but you more hall sound and a melodic type of sound with the V. .... analogue like ......blacker background.   A little more reverb, due to a lower noise floor. ........ there is more there in flow and analog type sound with the V.


 
 Extremely useful information, especially coming from someone like you.  I don't know the answer to this, but I read that the stock power supply is a switching supply that is very quick.  I have a vague (*and possibly flawed*) recollection of reading somewhere that sometimes linear power supplies can be current limiting, hence the advantage of a switching supply.  I have absolutely no idea if that's true or false.  _{NOTE: I don't even understand the difference(s) between the two designs, or even how power supplies work in the most general of terms, I know there's electricity and stuff involved...). So this is truly intended as a *question*.}_
  
So are linear power supplies subject to possible current limiting?  If so, it would seem this is NOT a problem for the Mojo, correct?


----------



## jamato8

saidentary said:


> Extremely useful information, especially coming from someone like you.  I don't know the answer to this, but I read that the stock power supply is a switching supply that is very quick.  I have a vague (*and possibly flawed*) recollection of reading somewhere that sometimes linear power supplies can be current limiting, hence the advantage of a switching supply.  I have absolutely no idea if that's true or false.  _{NOTE: I don't even understand the difference(s) between the two designs, or even how power supplies work in the most general of terms, I know there's electricity and stuff involved...). So this is truly intended as a *question*.}_
> 
> So are linear power supplies subject to possible current limiting?  If so, it would seem this is NOT a problem for the Mojo, correct?


 

 In the case of the V, it has a large capacitative reserve and can supply up to 10 amps, way above what the micro would ever pull. Switching PS's work on a frequency and used to introduce grit to the sound but that has been refined and you can get some nice switching supplies at an excellent price, like 10 dollars in quantity, depending upon what you are doing. I would say that in the case of the V, there is no current limitation. I would also say that the stock ps does fine.


----------



## saidentary

jamato8 said:


> In the case of the V, it has a large capacitative reserve and can supply up to 10 amps, way above what the micro would ever pull. Switching PS's work on a frequency and used to introduce grit to the sound but that has been refined and you can get some nice switching supplies at an excellent price, like 10 dollars in quantity, depending upon what you are doing. I would say that in the case of the V, there is no current limitation. I would also say that the stock ps does fine.


 
 That's extremely useful, and I think I actually understand your explanation, too. 
  
_*One last question:*_ {Based on my experience with my Odyssey Extreme monoblocks (which have 180,000 microfarads *per side*, and there seems to be _plenty_ of nimble power and current for my loudspeakers)},_ *current delivery from such a capacitance bank is essentially instantaneous, correct? *_


----------



## Audio Addict

jamato8 said:


> Mark from Audio HiFi stated that a top that will accommodate tall tubes like the VT99 will be out in about 6 weeks.




Very interesting as I had talked with about a different top to accommodate CV181s.


----------



## richard51

jamato8 said:


> In the case of the V, it has a large capacitative reserve and can supply up to 10 amps, way above what the micro would ever pull. Switching PS's work on a frequency and used to introduce grit to the sound but that has been refined and you can get some nice switching supplies at an excellent price, like 10 dollars in quantity, depending upon what you are doing. I would say that in the case of the V, there is no current limitation. I would also say that *the stock ps does fine.*


 
 if this is the case and if the mojo is superior.... is a battery would be a middle ground beween the stock psu and the Mojo at low cost ? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 i hope i had not say something stupid...


----------



## jamato8

saidentary said:


> That's extremely useful, and I think I actually understand your explanation, too.
> 
> _*One last question:*_ {Based on my experience with my Odyssey Extreme monoblocks (which have 180,000 microfarads *per side*, and there seems to be _plenty_ of nimble power and current for my loudspeakers)},_ *current delivery from such a capacitance bank is essentially instantaneous, correct? *_


 

 Pretty much. Solid state amps require a lot of capacitance and they are a current source. A tube amp is voltage and in relation to a solid state amp, uses very little capacitance. Often just 1000uf vs what you mention. Also it depends upon the type of capacitor but with modern caps, they are normally of a low ESR, so they deliver current on demand.


----------



## jamato8

richard51 said:


> if this is the case and if the mojo is superior.... is a battery would be a middle ground beween the stock psu and the Mojo at low cost ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Battery can work and used to be a great way to go but nowadays, I would go with a good power supply like comes with the micro or something like the ps's from Mojo. There are ps's for a few hundred that I am sure would do a good job also but the stock really does a fine job.


----------



## richard51

jamato8 said:


> Battery can work and used to be a great way to go but nowadays, I would go with a good power supply like comes with the micro or something like the ps's from Mojo. There are ps's for a few hundred that I am sure would do a good job also but the stock really does a fine job.


 

 thanks jamato8


----------



## kiertijai

*Mark from Audio HiFi stated that a top that will accommodate tall tubes like the VT99 will be out in about 6 weeks*
  
*     *Thanks for the info.  Good to hear that we can use different tubes in the microzotl2.
  
      May I ask which tubes can we use now? VT99, ECC32, ECC33, 6SL7's?
  
      Does the use of those tubes make the warranty invalid?


----------



## Treemed76

Guys I need help in explanation about ZOTL
  
 One concern I have about ZOTL is that it's using radio frequency. As far as I know those waves are dangerous for one's health. 
 No one has concern about it? Does the unit have any shielding to prevent high intensity radio frequency signal to potentially be detrimental to your body?


----------



## doctorjazz

http://m.cancer.org/cancer/cancercauses/radiationexposureandcancer/radiofrequency-radiation

There is no known adverse effects from radio waves...if there were, I'd be much more concerned about your cellphone or Bluetooth device than the ZOTL (unless you use it as a pillow).


----------



## Treemed76

It doesn't necesseraly have to cause cancer. There are other known adverse efects from RF frequencies, and I think it's different when something is around you as a weak signal vs having emitter right in your proximity. 
My question is does anyone known if RF emitter here is protected or shielded in any way, or freely emitting Radio frequency all around. I would appreciate the answer if someone knows, or can contact David Berning to ask.


----------



## crazychile

Just a guess as I'm not an RF engineer, but if the amp was "freely emitting Radio frequency all around" in substantial quantities, I think the FCC might take issue with that. I would also suspect that we may have heard stories about negative interactions with other electronic devices in the house that are susceptible to RF.
  
 Also, if the amp really had an issue with RF, then I could see how it could have an adverse effect on the sound. Considering how most everyone who has heard the amp loves it, I'm thinking that the RF is not an issue.
  
  
 Just a wild guess, again not my field of engineering.


----------



## jamato8

With audio you normally shield against RF and EMI because of the sound degradation it can cause. If the micro was putting out any real RF it would cause problems. Where is it stated it puts out RF?
  
 There is a transistor that using 250khz to the audio signal to ride on. We are not talking about transmission quality, just within the circuit. If there was enough RF to cause a problem, it would mess with the rest of the amp and what is using it is so small I would be far, far more concerned with the signal being put off by everyones cell phone. I don't see it as any issue at all.


----------



## Treemed76

Thanks for the answers. I'm not engineer nor technical about those issues at all, that's why I'm asking, hoping someone technical would shed the light. 

On the other topic, I'm new to portable audio, just ordered Fostex TH900 and have Woo Audio WA7 Fireflies. None of that tried yet except at Axpona and recent headphone meet in Chicago. I was very impressed with ZOTL 2 at the meet, and HE1000, of course  I'm playing to stay with Fostex, until I can acquire HE1000.

Question for anyone who has compared Woo Audio WA7 Fireflies and ZOTL... how can you describe the difference? Is ZOTL much better?

I'm attracted to the fact that it has speaker terminals, so I can possible hook up some efficient desk speakers as well.
Has anyone tried it with speakers and what speakers would work with it? Thanks!


----------



## saidentary

treemed76 said:


> On the other topic, I'm new to portable audio, just ordered Fostex TH900 and have Woo Audio WA7 Fireflies. None of that tried yet except at Axpona and recent headphone meet in Chicago. I was very impressed with ZOTL 2 at the meet, and HE1000, of course
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I haven't heard the Woo WA7.  Even if I had and could compare it to the ZOTL, there's no guarantee that my impressions would match or even be close to yours.  It's probably something you'll need to hear for yourself before you can make a decision.  But since you already own the WA7, why not see if you like it with the Fostex TH900? You may not feel like making any changes right away.  One thing that struck me at the Chicago meet on August 8th is that people have a wide range of sonic preferences. It's a subjective hobby.


----------



## jamato8

saidentary said:


> I haven't heard the Woo WA7.  Even if I had and could compare it to the ZOTL, there's no guarantee that my impressions would match or even be close to yours.  It's probably something you'll need to hear for yourself before you can make a decision.  But since you already own the WA7, why not see if you like it with the Fostex TH900? You may not feel like making any changes right away.  One thing that struck me at the Chicago meet on August 8th is that people have a wide range of sonic preferences. It's a subjective hobby.


 

 So very subjective is sound. I had a friend come over to listen to my speaker system once. My system images, throws depth and to me, and I listen to live music, was as good and often better than a lot of live music I have heard. He didn't say much. He did comment on my speakers and asked if I had made them. lol They are Newform Research 645's. Anyway I went and listened to his system. It was LP which I normally like if everything is set up right. It was overly warm, I mean tube mush warm, I could not tell were any of the sounds were coming from and there was little depth and no imaging. He loved it.


----------



## Treemed76

I will probably order ZOTL2 soon, and will try to report on it vs Woo WA7, all with FOSTEX TH900, and Greado RS


----------



## richard51

treemed76 said:


> I will probably order ZOTL2 soon, and will try to report on it vs Woo WA7, all with FOSTEX TH900, and Greado RS


 

 i will waited with impatience and a bit of envy for your impressions 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 my best regards


----------



## crazychile

I know no one has a Schiit Mjolnir 2 yet, but If anyone has one on order and also owns a zotl 2, I would love to hear about the differences after they have been properly compared. I was leaning heavily towards buying the zotl 2, but the new Mjolnir is balanced which makes it a lot more flexible for my system, as well as a couple of hundred bucks cheaper.
  
 Thanks.


----------



## jamato8

Ok I have done more comparisons of the Mojo V  and stock power supply. While it doesn't jump out at you like going form a mediocre amp to a very good one, the change to me, is noticeable. The presentation is very smooth but that is not to infer that there is any lack of dynamics. Everything is enhanced. The quality of the sound, and bell like quality of some notes, a blacker background and a fluid sound that is the best I have heard.


----------



## richard51

jamato8 said:


> Ok I have done more comparisons of the Mojo V  and stock power supply. While it doesn't jump out at you like going form a mediocre amp to a very good one, the change to me, is noticeable. The presentation is very smooth but that is not to infer that there is any lack of dynamics. Everything is enhanced. The quality of the sound, and bell like quality of some notes, a blacker background and a fluid sound that is the best I have heard.


 

 we can live with the stock power supply without kill ourself? And without thinking that this is necessary to buy that now?


----------



## doctorjazz

Or, you can buy it, and then feel after a few weeks you STILL need to upgrade...it's called Audiophilia Nervosa


----------



## richard51

doctorjazz said:


> Or, you can buy it, and then feel after a few weeks you STILL need to upgrade...it's called Audiophilia Nervosa


 
 i will remember this  Latin expression...My wife made an extensive research about my mental problem and you solved it in a few words...Thanks


----------



## jamato8

With the V, I feel zero need to upgrade, the combination is that good. IMO


----------



## saidentary

treemed76 said:


> I will probably order ZOTL2 soon, and will try to report on it vs Woo WA7, all with FOSTEX TH900, and Grado RS


 
 That will be interesting to read.  I look forward to it.


----------



## drbluenewmexico

doctorjazz said:


> Or, you can buy it, and then feel after a few weeks you STILL need to upgrade...it's called Audiophilia Nervosa


 

 Oh no not the dreaded "Audiophile Nervosa", rediscovered and rerevealed, a deja vu of the Quest for the Grail of sound...
 if you think you have it, it sublimates and disappears into the hope of an upgrade at any price or form.....
 the only cure is banishment to your transistor  radio.........with old apple buds......for a week, then your gear will sound
 very very good again!!!.   
  
 However that said, the supplied power supply to the Zotl2 is adequate for decent performance and in this configuration he Zotl
 is quite an improvement to most peoples gear systems...with the Joule power supplies the Zotl becomes SUPERMAN, the soundstage
 bigger and bolder, the tones able to fly over ordinary limitations, and the music totallly involving.  good vs GREAT....IMHO...of course.
 I have the original MicroZotl with internal power supply and the new configuration is a significant upgrade over that also, although the
 original remains  a wonderful and collectible audio friend......


----------



## drbluenewmexico

I just heard the MicroZotl2 used as a preamp driving Maggie 1.7 planar speakers with upgraded crossovers and
 stands, and the sound was TOTALLY LIQUID.....with deep bass and dead on tone. Blues floated from behind and in front of the speakers like an audio haunting by the actual musicians.....Stevie Ray Vaughn was born again...The source was
 Mojo Audios new cat server and Mystique NOS DAC fueled with a Joule 5 power supply....
 this combo is reference quality and will be on display at the Rocky Mountain Audio show this fall....in Denver.
 The Zotl2 provided seamless gain to the custom tubed Crown amp driving the system....a total synergistic
 WOW experience.  Head Mojo Benjamin Zweikel has been cooking up some amazing sound synchrony
 using his gear and the MicroZotl2....congratulations Ben!!!!


----------



## jamato8

Yep, the Mojo V and the Zotl micro are the ultimate for me. $2,000 but worth it as I don't think anything is better and much is not near as good. The micro with the stock supply is a no brainer in my opinion. David Berning has used the tubes in the best possible way with no down side. A genius.


----------



## saidentary

jamato8 said:


> Yep, the Mojo V and the Zotl micro are the ultimate for me. $2,000 but worth it as I don't think anything is better and much is not near as good. The micro with the stock supply is a no brainer in my opinion. David Berning has used the tubes in the best possible way with no down side. A genius.


 

 Coming from you (a member since 2004 with 14,718 posts on head-fi), this is a profoundly significant statement. You're not alone in your admiration of the genius of the MicroZOTL 2, either.


----------



## Audio Addict

Urban HIFI is at the Capital Audiofest this weekend. Does any I ne know if they are using a different power supply than the stock? It would seem a good place and time to introduce it.


----------



## doctorjazz

I'd guess they're using the stock, they don't have their own upgrade. Could be wrong, though. Still using the stock, sounds mighty good, in the future may go for the upgrade.


----------



## jamato8

audio addict said:


> Urban HIFI is at the Capital Audiofest this weekend. Does any I ne know if they are using a different power supply than the stock? It would seem a good place and time to introduce it.


 

 They have one from Mojo and their stock. I assume Mark will bring the Mojo.


----------



## doctorjazz

Never mind...


----------



## dpump

I talked to Mark Schneider at Urban HiFi in July. One of the things we discussed were power supplies. I think he said he had talked to Mojo about their supply but I don't remember if he was getting one to try. I do remember that Mark said he was looking into coming out with his own linear power supply in the $300-$350 range. Maybe this is what he has at the Capital AudioFest? Anyway, he seemed pretty certain he would have his on upgraded power supply at some point.


----------



## davide256

Will be trying the HDPlex LPS I already own with a  newly acquired Mzotl next week... the latest HDPLex  allows you for $450 to power 5v, 5-9v, 12V and 19V DC
 independently as long as total current draw is in spec, allows 5A vs the 2.5A  of the Mzotl2 stock power supply.
  
 Curious about NOS tube recommendations, I have Amperex, Telefunken and Siemens 12AT7's to play with but no 6SN7 tubes. Anyone tried
 a 6SN7 tube in the Mzotl2 that they liked better than stock tube? I've actually been pretty happy with the new generation Tungsol power tubes in main system
 power amp but the new generation pre tubes don't match up to NOS


----------



## doctorjazz

Interested in the HDPlex, have more than one component that could use LPS (my Geek Out Special Edition), buy the power needed is different for the different units, I believe. Uptown Audio makes the JS-2 LPS, 2 outputs that can be independently set for output voltage, costs $925, though. Curious what you think when the connect to the ZOTL.


----------



## jmw2015

I have the Raytheon 5692 RedBase 6SN7GTs and love them with the MicroZOTL2. Using Mullard M8162s for the 12AT7s.  The sound incredible running through the HE-1000 headphones as well as the Sennheiser HD800s.


----------



## TomNC

@jmw2015
  
   Would you mind describing your impressions of this amp driving the HD800 in some detail? At a recent North Carolina mini head-fi meet, I was very impressed almost everything about the HD800 except the likely fatiguing trebles. How do you like the HD800's trebles driven by the MICROZOTL2? What are they like in comparison with what you heard from other amps? 
  
   Additionally, could you describe differences in both mids and trebles you heard between the HD800 and the HE1000?  
  
   I am contemplating about purchase of the HD800 and an amp that may match it well. Thanks for your input in advance.


----------



## davide256

doctorjazz said:


> Interested in the HDPlex, have more than one component that could use LPS (my Geek Out Special Edition), buy the power needed is different for the different units, I believe. Uptown Audio makes the JS-2 LPS, 2 outputs that can be independently set for output voltage, costs $925, though. Curious what you think when the connect to the ZOTL.


 
 Plugged the Mzotl2 in this evening, gave it a brief listen with the stock power supply but just couldn't stand how congested it sounded. Swapped to the HDPlex, problem solved
 so a better PSU purchase seems wise to plan on if you buy this.
  
  Whats clearly evident is how fast the Mzotl is and how well it handles complex loud passages. I'll use the russian 12AT7's tonight but  tomorrow I plan to swap in some Mullard CV4024's as I doubt the
 russian tubes are going to open up more for detail.
 Love how it handled the large drums in the movie sound  "The Last Samurai - Ronin".  Trying this as a preamp also, very enjoyable feeding the HT input of Prima Luna integrated to Maggie 1.7's... a good match
 between pre and speakers for quickness, better than the integrated pre section as a match.


----------



## doctorjazz

Just got back from about a week of vacation, away from my HEK and ZOTL2, man these things (driven by PC/Regen/Geek Out Special Edition), sounds AMAZING!
May wind up upgrading power supply in the end, but getting amazing sound just as it is!


----------



## saidentary

davide256 said:


> Plugged the Mzotl2 in this evening, gave it a brief listen with the stock power supply but just couldn't stand how congested it sounded.


 
 Although benefits have been reported with power supply upgrades, your perception that the sound is "congested" with the stock power supply is, shall we say, "significantly at variance," with mine.


----------



## doctorjazz

Listening to "A Trumpet in the Morning", fabulous big band record by the Marty Ehrlich Large Ensemble. If anything could sound congested, it would be a recording like this, must have had to shoehorn them into a recording studio. But, nope, clear, open sounding, detailed, details clear (and, there are so many to pick out on this album).


----------



## jamato8

davide256 said:


> Plugged the Mzotl2 in this evening, gave it a brief listen with the stock power supply but just couldn't stand how congested it sounded. Swapped to the HDPlex, problem solved
> so a better PSU purchase seems wise to plan on if you buy this.
> 
> Whats clearly evident is how fast the Mzotl is and how well it handles complex loud passages. I'll use the russian 12AT7's tonight but  tomorrow I plan to swap in some Mullard CV4024's as I doubt the
> ...


 

 With the stock PS, I have never found the sound congested. I wonder if something else is going on. And the tubes do burn in nice, the stock ones. I am using the CV4024 and some VT99's, round plate but even with all stock tubes I could be happy. How many hours do you have on the micro?


----------



## davide256

Just got it yesterday so only a few hours on it. Its possible that this is headphone specific, so far the HE-400 phones don't seem a great match.
 With the stock power supply, Microzotl2 seems to run out of current gas (congested) at 12:00 on the volume knob and the headphone isn't really at desired volume until 3:00
 on the knob. With the HDPlex all is well at 3:00 but I can hear clipping artifacts in loud passages. Have a track on infinite repeat right now to bake in some more hours but that's not likely
 to help a power issue.
  
 Couldn't resist swapping through my preferred 12AT7 tubes today, that was quite interesting. Traditional tube preamps can have a wide variation in sound signature/colouration between
 different NOS tubes but the Microzotl2 greatly diminished those differences. What seemed to matter more was how fast the tube was. I've ended up here for the moment as preferred
 12AT7
  
http://tctubes.com/Siemens-E81CC-12AT7-matched-pair.aspx
  
 Grado SR225's doing just fine at 12:00 on the volume knob


----------



## doctorjazz

davide256 said:


> Just got it yesterday so only a few hours on it. Its possible that this is headphone specific, so far the HE-400 phones don't seem a great match.
> With the stock power supply, Microzotl2 seems to run out of current gas (congested) at 12:00 on the volume knob and the headphone isn't really at desired volume until 3:00
> on the knob. With the HDPlex all is well at 3:00 but I can hear clipping artifacts in loud passages. Have a track on infinite repeat right now to bake in some more hours but that's not likely
> to help a power issue.
> ...




Don't get that...I'm listening to HE-1000 right now, about 11 OClock, through PC/Regen/Geek Out Special Edition/Norne Zoetic cables. No congestion, don't know if the HEK is easier to drive than the 400, Hifiman has been going in the direction of making their cans easier to drive. Still, doesn't seem right to me. I'd contact Mark.


----------



## saidentary

doctorjazz said:


> Don't get that...I'm listening to HE-1000 right now, about 11 OClock, through PC/Regen/Geek Out Special Edition/Norne Zoetic cables. No congestion, don't know if the HEK is easier to drive than the 400, Hifiman has been going in the direction of making their cans easier to drive. Still, doesn't seem right to me. I'd contact Mark.


 
 Contacting Mark sounds like a very good idea.


----------



## davide256

Figured it out. When I set up the Microzotl I cabled it up for inputs and pre out to the HT inputs on Prima Luna Premium integrated. As soon as I disconnected the Microzotl
 pre out, all was fine with volume, can get good volume at 9:00 with  HE-400.
  
 Anyone else duplicate this or is it unique to connecting Microzotl2  pre out to  Prima Luna HT (pre bypass)?


----------



## EdmontonCanuck

I don't think the ZOTL2's pre-outs are bypass. They are tapped into the same as the 1/4" headphone jack, right?


----------



## jamato8

edmontoncanuck said:


> I don't think the ZOTL2's pre-outs are bypass. They are tapped into the same as the 1/4" headphone jack, right?


 

 Right, there is no bypass, you get a very low output impedance, which is what you want.


----------



## saidentary

edmontoncanuck said:


> I don't think the ZOTL2's pre-outs are bypass. They are tapped into the same as the 1/4" headphone jack, right?


 
  


jamato8 said:


> Right, there is no bypass, you get a very low output impedance, which is what you want.


 

 So, does this mean that part of the signal (strength) to the MicroZOTL 2 headphone jack was being diverted to its preamp output that was connected to davide256's Prima Luna Premium integrated amplifier?  Or does it mean something else?


----------



## Jozurr

That also happens when you have poor interconnects.


----------



## jamato8

saidentary said:


> So, does this mean that part of the signal (strength) to the MicroZOTL 2 headphone jack was being diverted to its preamp output that was connected to davide256's Prima Luna Premium integrated amplifier?  Or does it mean something else?


 

 The load that the micro would see would be different. Hard to know the effect unless you know what headphones and what amp are connected. For good sound, I would connect one or the other as there is no switch on the output for headphones or if you use the micro as a preamp. For myself, I prefer the better signal routing of no switch and would hook up one or the other.


----------



## davide256

Sounds like the pre out and headphone connection out have no lock out circuitry, are in parallel. And I like my Analysis Plus interconnects just fine, thank you.
  
 Recycled through my 12AT7's last night, in order of preference
  
  
 1. Siemens triple mica E81CC - adds a bit more gain, zero distortion, very clean and fast but not a warm tube
 2. Mullard 6201- Adds a bit of sweetness but trades off with some harmonic distortion on complex instrument combinations
 3. Mullard CV4024 - similar to Mullard 6201 but a little coarser sounding for details
 4. Amperex 6201 - nicely dynamic, warm but a step down from Mullard 4024 for distortion and detail
 5. Amperex orange globe 12AT7 - mehh, warm sound but starting to approach so so tube sound
  
 Unfortunately the Telefunken 12AT7's I have are worn... I liked what I heard better than the CV4024
 but need to get some in good shape to decide if the Siemens stays in or the Telefunken jumps
 to the top,


----------



## crazychile

I need your help guys.
  
 I was all set to buy a MicroZotl 2 to replace my Schiit Lyr 2 headphone amp for my single ended system.  Then the Schiit Mjolnir 2 came out and it’s cheaper,  and much more flexible for my system. So I’m looking for input from people who own the MicroZotl 2 AND the Mjolnir 2, or have listened to both extensively to share opinions of the sonic differences.
  
 A little system background here… I plan on upgrading my Schiit Bifrost Uber DAC to a Gungnir Multibit. With the Gungnir having balanced and SE outputs, this will give me the flexibility to run both of my systems, one is a dynamic headphone system, and the other is electrostatic (amp has balanced inputs).
  
 If I chose MicroZotl 2, I take the balanced output of the DAC and run it directly to the electrostatic amp. Then the SE outputs go to the MicroZotl 2. If I choose the Mjolnir 2 amp, I’ll only use the balanced outputs from the DAC and feed it to the balanced inputs on the Mjolnir 2, and then run the balanced preamp outputs to my balanced electrostatic amp. With the volume knob all the way up on the electrostatic amp, I’ll then be using the Mjolnir 2 as a preamp when I want to listen to my electrostatic headphones.
 So does anyone have any opinions on this? Sonic differences between the two, other comments?
  
 Thanks.


----------



## richard51

good question!   
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 i wait to see the reply


----------



## davide256

I think they ought to classify the Microzotl2 as "audio heroin". You sit down at a trade show with Audeze headphones demoing the amp, expecting
 to have to listen through the usual love/hate analysis of yet another tube headphone amp and instead you are blown away with effortless, full dynamics,
 complete lack of distortion and the only thing left on your mind is how soon after you buy this can you afford to buy an Audeze LCD headphone or a Hifiman HE-1000.
 Clearly Berning is reintroducing this as a gateway drug to get you to buy their main system pre and amp solutions. Even as a pre amp, this kit excels, matches
 Magnepan 1.7's for speed and clarity.


----------



## jamato8

The micro works extremely well with Blues. Well it works fantastic with all music but it just opens up the sound on blues to give you that tug and pull to the emotions that is what music is all about, . .  when done right.


----------



## richard51

i read all your post like theology 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 i dream to buy the microzotl but by now i want to try the Kennerton Odin with it...in a year to come... thanks for your passion


----------



## Jozurr

At this rate I feel I will be ending up with a MZ2 for my HE1000 as well....


----------



## richard51

i had read all that are to read on the net about David Berning and the Zotl.... Its new topology and implementation, completely new, and for my understanding "tube sound with ss clarity" that speak volume....for 1000 dollars or around that what amplifier is totally new topology with this quality ? With the capacity to drive anything included the infamous He 6  ? Berning is a physicist in amp design for 50 years, my little finger said to me that he was not the best marketing guy in the world nor the Gucci of the Amp business, but perhaps the Einstein of the audio for a little price to pay.... I will verify that in one year to come....I want the least costly amp in the world with the best sound in the world, where there is a contender and candidate ? all rivals cost in above 5 or 7  thousands dollars... If you know one in the same price bracket , please say it to me .... best regard
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




s to all of you


----------



## dpump

richard51 said:


> i had read all that are to read on the net about David Berning and the Zotl.... Its new topology and implementation, completely new, and for my understanding "tube sound with ss clarity" that speak volume....for 1000 dollars or around that what amplifier is totally new topology with this quality ? With the capacity to drive anything included the infamous He 6  ? Berning is a physicist in amp design for 50 years, my little finger said to me that he was not the best marketing guy in the world nor the Gucci of the Amp business, but perhaps the Einstein of the audio for a little price to pay.... I will verify that in one year to come....I want the least costly amp in the world with the best sound in the world, where there is a contender and candidate ? all rivals cost in above 5 or 7  thousands dollars... If you know one in the same price bracket , please say it to me .... best regard
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 The MZ2 truly is a fantastic amp but it doesn't ​have enough power to drive the HE-6 properly. You need about 5 watts per channel for the HE-6. When I had HE-6's, I used them on 2 integrated tube amps with 3 watts and 8 watts, and with the Schiit Gungnir which is 5-8 watts. If I had the volume control at 9 o'clock for the LCD-3, I would have to turn it to 12 o'clock to get the same level with the HE-6.


----------



## Wildcatsare1

OK, DrJazz and Blue being a cautious adapter, I am going to take the MZ2 plunge. Going to sell my Uber Bifrost, the Monarchy is that good, and pick up one of these beauties when I get back from Ukraine. Would love to see more feedback on how it matches up with the HD800.


----------



## richard51

dpump said:


> The MZ2 truly is a fantastic amp but it doesn't ​have enough power to drive the HE-6 properly. You need about 5 watts per channel for the HE-6. When I had HE-6's, I used them on 2 integrated tube amps with 3 watts and 8 watts, and with the Schiit Gungnir which is 5-8 watts. If I had the volume control at 9 o'clock for the LCD-3, I would have to turn it to 12 o'clock to get the same level with the HE-6.


 
 ok.. do youhave try it with the he 6 ? with the speakers out of the Zotl?


----------



## doctorjazz

From what I know, the speaker output isn't any more powerful, hats allows you to use it as a preamp or for very efficient speakers.


----------



## richard51

thanks... i must think to another choice of headphone for the microztl than the he 6 i think...Perhaps  the Odin...


----------



## saidentary

wildcatsare1 said:


> OK, DrJazz and Blue being a cautious adapter, I am going to take the MZ2 plunge. Going to sell my Uber Bifrost, the Monarchy is that good, and pick up one of these beauties when I get back from Ukraine. Would love to see more feedback on how it matches up with the HD800.


 

 Well, I can't say for sure about the HD-800.  My PREDICTION is that it (the MicroZOTL 2) will sound fantastic with the HD-800, based on the characteristics of that amp.  It.....just....ROCKS!!  (and sings too).  It'll be fun to hear your impressions after you've had a chance to listen.


----------



## dpump

richard51 said:


> ok.. do youhave try it with the he 6 ? with the speakers out of the Zotl?​


 
  
 doctorjazz is correct. The power output from the pcb goes to the headphone jack and back to the speaker outs, so you get the same power on both of them. The maximum output power of the Zotl is about 1 watt, so there is no way it can adequately drive the HE-6. It would 'play' it, but not 'drive' it, if you know what I mean. I sold my HE-6 because it was uncomfortable for me to wear since it's so heavy, but I did like the sound when driven with enough power. My Sennheiser HD-800 with a Charleston Cable Co. OCC cable is awesome on the Zotl and is very comfortable. Also the Zotl is nice with my AudioQuest NightHawk and my pre-Fazor LCD-3 and Oppo PM2 with Norne Audio cables. In other words, the Zotl will 'drive' pretty much any normal or higher efficiency phones.


----------



## saidentary

dpump said:


> My Sennheiser HD-800 with a Charleston Cable Co. OCC cable is awesome on the Zotl and is very comfortable. Also the Zotl is nice with my AudioQuest NightHawk and my pre-Fazor LCD-3 and Oppo PM2 with Norne Audio cables. In other words, the Zotl will 'drive' pretty much any normal or higher efficiency phones.


 
 DUDE!!!!  An impressive range of choices with your MicroZOTL 2! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  It will be interesting to see if Wildcatsar1 has the same highly favorable impression with his HD-800/MZ-2 pairing.


----------



## dpump

saidentary said:


> Well, I can't say for sure about the HD-800.  My PREDICTION is that it (the MicroZOTL 2) will sound fantastic with the HD-800, based on the characteristics of that amp.  It.....just....ROCKS!!  (and sings too).  It'll be fun to hear your impressions after you've had a chance to listen.


 
  
 Yes, the HD-800 is fantastic on the Zotl. However, I am using a Charleston Cable Co. OCC cable, not the stock cable. The stock cable, to my ears, does make the HD-800 sound brighter on the highs and weaker in the bass. I hate to say that you need a high quality copper cable to bring out the best in the HD-800, but that was my experience. I sold the stock cable soon after receiving the HD-800. There's nothing magical about the Charleston cable, as several other companies have equal or better cables. I would recommend copper, not silver, as silver may tilt the balance back toward a brighter high end. This is my opinion and some people think all cables sound pretty much the same. All I can say is that, to me, comparing the stock cable to the Charleston cable there was a definite audible difference in the balance of the sound. The Charleston cable brought the highs down a little and firmed up the bass. The HD-800 is still somewhat forward sounding, but the amount of detail you hear and the separation of instruments can be quite startling at times.


----------



## Wildcatsare1

I have a Norne Audio Draug 2 on order, which I tried with Rumny's HD800's at one of the Nashville Meets and loved. Plus, I am going to attempt the mod from Innerfidelity.


----------



## doctorjazz

I haven't heard the combination, but I'd expect it to sound really nice...


----------



## jamato8

The Pioneer Master 1 sound good on the micro. Instruments are very true to their sound.


----------



## audionewbi

I am very interested in this amp, I am a dominant iem user, I have read till page 3 of the thread and I will read the rest soon, just like to ask iem user on their thought on this amp.

Regards


----------



## saidentary

There's now a product review of this amplifier.  The link is here: MicroZOTL 2 product review.
  
 I agree with most, but not all of what was said.   IMO, the 4 star rating is too low.  Also, I perceive no weakness with microdetail or with bass.  No.  I'll certainly agree that the case is flimsy.  I wasn't buying it for the case, however......


----------



## richard51

i have read the review.... i am curious to know what are the name of  these  high end amplifiers in the review :   "_microdetail that much more expensive amps can provide is not there" _
  
 i think that its important to listen to a top high end headphone for the retrieval of these detail....and a top high end dac also...If not the microzotl cannot give his  top potential performance....
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  the performance of any element in a chain system is dependent for the final result on one and each element...


----------



## jamato8

I find the micro Zotl extremely detailed but not etched but detail retrieval on even tape noise that I do not normally hear. This is with the Pioneer SE Master 1 and the HE1000. The Hugo is the dac or the 901s via dock. Bass is also not lacking on my setup with it going to the lower registers with impact and a cleanness to the bass that keeps it transparent in a way I do not often hear. IMO


----------



## richard51

jamato8 said:


> I find the micro Zotl extremely detailed but not etched but detail retrieval on even tape noise that I do not normally hear. This is with the Pioneer SE Master 1 and the HE1000. The Hugo is the dac or the 901s via dock. Bass is also not lacking on my setup with it going to the lower registers with impact and a cleanness to the bass that keeps it transparent in a way I do not often hear. IMO


 

 thanks for your short review....I had great interest in microzotl.... is the microzotl only a very good amp like many other very good amp in this price bracket or is the microzotl a little marvel for his price? that is the question ...And this reviewer said that the microzotl is a very good amp like many other .... then why buying it? that is the question i ask to myself after this review....i will wait some other review.... but the reviews i had read here in this thread  all said that the microzotl2 is for his price an extraordinary amp....


----------



## doctorjazz

I also generally agree with most of the review, but I think the part about it not being as detailed as more expensive amps was a bit unfair. I'd want to know, which amps, what details. Is it possible that amps for $2,$3,$4K by Cavalli, Ray Samuels, ALO, and others have more detail? I haven't heard any of these yet, but it wouldn't surprise me if they do. How much, how does it compare to the ZOTL, how much more MUSICAL enjoyment does the higher priced spread give, those are questions that the statement begs for answers to. Some detailed comparisons, maybe, if you've actually done the comparisons, would be useful information. Sure, I can post a criticism of my beloved Pono that, "it is not as detailed as the $30,000 Light Harmonic Da Vinci DAC", but does that really tell you anything about how good the Pono is? The bigger question would be, "how MUCH extra do you get for the extra $29,700", "how much musical enjoyment does the Pono provide compared to the Da Vinci?". I think the writer just felt he had to put _something_ into the "negative" column.


----------



## richard51

doctorjazz said:


> I also generally agree with most of the review, but I think the part about it not being as detailed as more expensive amps was a bit unfair. I'd want to know, which amps, what details. Is it possible that amps for $2,$3,$4K by Cavalli, Ray Samuels, ALO, and others have more detail? I haven't heard any of these yet, but it wouldn't surprise me if they do. How much, how does it compare to the ZOTL, how much more MUSICAL enjoyment does the higher priced spread give, those are questions that the statement begs for answers to. Some detailed comparisons, maybe, if you've actually done the comparisons, would be useful information. Sure, I can post a criticism of my beloved Pono that, "it is not as detailed as the $30,000 Light Harmonic Da Vinci DAC", but does that really tell you anything about how good the Pono is? The bigger question would be, "how MUCH extra do you get for the extra $29,700", "how much musical enjoyment does the Pono provide compared to the Da Vinci?". I think the writer just felt he had to put _something_ into the "negative" column.


 

 that is exactly what i think....thanks for your impression


----------



## jamato8

And, what tubes are being used is always important. Tubes make a difference, as has often been noted. So what tubes? I am using the Tungsol VT99 round plate (I also like the grey glass square plate RCA) most of the time but have to admit that the stock tubes are no slouch and they chose well as they are better than most all other newly manufactured tubes of their type on the market. 
  
 I have the 1952 Sylvania in 6SN7 NOS but I don't like them as well as some other tubes such as the Tungsol 6SN7 round plate, in this amp. The input tubes are very important as well.


----------



## saidentary

I just finished a long session with the MicroZOTL 2 and my vintage Denon AH-D700 (that's seven HUNDRED, not AH-D7000, which I also own).  Computer You Tube music videos >>> USB output >>>> Arcam irDAC >>> MicroZOTL 2 >>>> Vintage Denons.  Here's a picture of the Denons from a listing on ebay.  I recently got new Brainwavz angled pads for them.  (I think the new, angled pads boost the bass.)  They're efficient (~30 ohms) and sound decent (meh) out of the computer.  Different story with the DAC and MicroZOTL 2 in the chain.  Certainly not a critical listen but it was _fun_, because they sound quite good, bordering on excellent.   This shows that the MicroZOTL 2 can do great things with mid level headphones, and not just beasts like the HE-1000, etc.  Pretty cool.


----------



## doctorjazz

Right now my go to I'd the Pono line out into MicroZOTL into acs Encore customs. Open, detailed, non fatigueing, great combo (NO hiss, btw).


----------



## nephilim32

jamato8 said:


> With the stock PS, I have never found the sound congested. I wonder if something else is going on. And the tubes do burn in nice, the stock ones. I am using the CV4024 and some VT99's, round plate but even with all stock tubes I could be happy. How many hours do you have on the micro?




Sounds like maybe 'a power line' conditioner may be of benefit to allow 'clean' group loop free power to your gear. I did this and it made a significant difference; however swapping my initial AC power cord with a Pangea 9se made no significant difference that my ears could be aware of.


----------



## nephilim32

saidentary said:


> I just finished a long session with the MicroZOTL 2 and my vintage Denon AH-D700 (that's seven HUNDRED, not AH-D7000, which I also own).  Computer You Tube music videos >>> USB output >>>> Arcam irDAC >>> MicroZOTL 2 >>>> Vintage Denons.  Here's a picture of the Denons from a listing on ebay.  I recently got new Brainwavz angled pads for them.  (I think the new, angled pads boost the bass.)  They're efficient (~30 ohms) and sound decent (meh) out of the computer.  Different story with the DAC and MicroZOTL 2 in the chain.  Certainly not a critical listen but it was _fun_, because they sound quite good, bordering on excellent.   This shows that the MicroZOTL 2 can do great things with mid level headphones, and not just beasts like the HE-1000, etc.  Pretty cool.




Dear god you own a lot of headphones. I love it! 
Anyway, I think the way you feel about your Denon 700's and possibly your 7000's is how I feel about my Sony MDR Z7's. I like the fact that they aren't as revealing, which creates more forgiveness with a lot of other recordings as opposed to what the HD 800's offer. Anyhow, it's fun to have different listening experiences. I find it actually makes me appreciate my flagship gear even more. 

Glad you had a nice time here. Set up sounds great and I'm glad the micro-Z can pair nicely with many of your headphones. Always a plus!!


----------



## saidentary

richard51 said:


> thanks for your short review....I had great interest in microzotl.... is the microzotl only a very good amp like many other very good amp in this price bracket or is the microzotl a little marvel for his price? that is the question ...And this reviewer said that the microzotl is a very good amp like many other .... then why buying it? that is the question i ask to myself after this review....i will wait some other review.... but the reviews i had read here in this thread  all said that the microzotl2 is for his price an extraordinary amp....


 

 I'll concede (somewhat grudgingly 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) at the outset that this is just my personal opinion, but I'll also say that I hold this opinion VERY strongly and with great certainty: 
*Make no mistake: The MicroZOTL 2 is more than just a "very good" headphone amplifier.  It is a spectacular* *sonic achievement, and is an end game amplifier.  It's all the more extraordinary given its relatively "low" price *(at least relatively low compared to many of the insanely exorbitant prices so frustratingly pervasive in high end audio these days.............).


----------



## richard51

saidentary said:


> I'll concede (somewhat grudgingly) at the outset that this is just my personal opinion, but I'll also say I hold this opinion VERY strongly and with great certainty:
> Make no mistake:  The MicroZOTL 2 is more than just a "very good" headphone amplifier.  It is a spectacular sonic achievement, and is an end game amplifier.  It's all the more extraordinary given its _relatively "_low" price (at least relatively low compared to many of the insanely exorbitant price points so frustratingly pervasive in high end audio these days.............).


 

 i will buy one in exactly 11 months and i will report to all and to you... thanks for your passion


----------



## saidentary

richard51 said:


> i will buy one in exactly 11 months and i will report to all and to you... thanks for your passion


 

 Prediction #1: You'll love it. 
  
 Prediction #2: You'll be relieved that what (_almost _all of the) people have been saying about it is really _true_, and
                      not exaggerated.
  
 Prediction #3: Then you'll love it even _more_.


----------



## jamato8

Listening with the Pioneer Master 1 and the sound is excellent. Double bass on jazz has such power and yet controlled. Great stuff!


----------



## nephilim32

^^ god I may be a +1 here with what's been said to purchase the micro-Z in less then a year. 
My main amp is the Burson soloist, so I think with the Bering topology that is described would make it worth it for me because this is a very different sounding amp IMO than the soloist. 
Also, I feel there is no doubt that the micro Z can power a pair of HD 800's with no problems. Probably a good mix too since impressions here say that the micro Z is quite warm sounding. 

Oh the excitement! I hope to try this amp very soon, but I still kind up have my heart set on a WA7 firefly +extra PSU. 

decisions decisions....


----------



## richard51

i know that you are right....what can I  buy for less than the price of the Zotl  that will be so good that the reviewers of the product lost all precaution and only their passion speaks ? ....Only Stax addict are like that and the stax products has mythical Aura with a reason....And for sure some amp is better but... What will be his price? 3x time more? or more...I have no doubt that in eleven month i will thank you another time ...


----------



## saidentary

nephilim32 said:


> ^^ god I may be a +1 here with what's been said to purchase the micro-Z in less then a year.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 For the MicroZOTL 2, I'd say more SMOOTH than warm.  And still amazingly detailed, and with great bass.
  
 Both are great companies (Woo Audio and Urban HiFi) and you probably wouldn't go wrong with either amp. I haven't heard any of the Woo amplifiers but I suspect they're great also.  Obviously the best option would be to listen to both amps (with your own music) before deciding.


----------



## doctorjazz

Woo is coming to the November NY area meet; hoping to go and bring my ZOTL, maybe get a chance to compare them.
And, I wouldn't describe the ZOTL as warm in the usual tube amp sense. It's more open, detailed, clear, with a layer of electronic haze you didn't know was there removed.


----------



## achristilaw

I have an original micro-ZOTL headphone amp.... and an ZH270. I will have to put one of these is the acquisition radar. Huge fan of David's designs!


----------



## richard51

do you have experience with other amp to compare with? how do you evaluate the performance of the zotl versus other amp ?


----------



## doctorjazz

Drbluenewmexico has both the original MicroZOTL and the ZOTL2, he loved the original (and was the guy who lobbied to get the ZOTL2 produced), he feels the 2 is a major improvement. I'm really curious nite about the non-Micro (?Macro  ) ZOTL amps and preamps from Berning. Obviously, you like your ZOTL amp.


----------



## Audio Addict

nephilim32 said:


> ^^ god I may be a +1 here with what's been said to purchase the micro-Z in less then a year.
> My main amp is the Burson soloist, so I think with the Bering topology that is described would make it worth it for me because this is a very different sounding amp IMO than the soloist.
> Also, I feel there is no doubt that the micro Z can power a pair of HD 800's with no problems. Probably a good mix too since impressions here say that the micro Z is quite warm sounding.
> 
> ...




Burson has a new V5 discrete opamp coming out. For $70, you may want to try it. Email Alex.


----------



## achristilaw

I love time traveling and putting good source in front of the original micro-ZOTL and use the Grado HP-2. I have a pair of HP-2's that papa Joe reworked back in 07' (NOS drivers and upgraded wire). I like a host of great music and count Opera in the scheme. The Berning and Grado combine to offer more than a glimpse of the stage work.
  
 I have fine amps that examine every pit on a compact disc, the Berning soaks into those pits and filters residual DNA left from the prints of the original players. I'm amazed at times the timbered tonality the Berning can muster, runs the gamut from instruments to ambiance.


----------



## achristilaw

@richard51.... "It's not that experience is the best teacher.... it's the only teacher". You have to ask yourself the relevant questions, from the type of music that is important to you, reaching all the way to just how much disposable income you'll dispose on the hobby. You have to educate yourself into circuit type, design and implementation. If your young and listen to Rap & Hip-Hop? Gear (other than Beats) wouldn't make a difference. 
  
 The single most important component? Synergy! The combining of attributes of two (or more) components to rise above their station and give a fluent portrayal. This hobby is a trap for the impulsive and those who lack focus. You'll spread money like jam and find the last move? Was either a sideways move or you took a step back.


----------



## nephilim32

audio addict said:


> Burson has a new V5 discrete opamp coming out. For $70, you may want to try it. Email Alex.




Why thank you audio addict. 
However, I'm not a huge OPAMP lover for heavy concentration headphone listening sessions. I prefer more discret signal chains like what is usually found in CLASS A circuitry amp layouts. OPAMPS are fine for home audio receivers and portable amp/DACS but not for a serious desktop amp paired with analytical gear. However, I am aware of this Burson Super op, and it surpasses typical I C OPAMPS to a fair degree. The Burson I have uses FET transistor output and to my ears this thing sounds great. It's analytical as hell, but if you get a good recording it really sings with zero noise floor. 
I would think the MICRO Z places itself in the same category? I can only wonder at this point. Anyhow, thank you for your suggestion.


----------



## achristilaw

doctorjazz said:


> Drbluenewmexico has both the original MicroZOTL and the ZOTL2, he loved the original (and was the guy who lobbied to get the ZOTL2 produced), he feels the 2 is a major improvement. I'm really curious nite about the non-Micro (?Macro  ) ZOTL amps and preamps from Berning. Obviously, you like your ZOTL amp.


 

 I was another bothering David and Alan concerning a new headphone amp from David. It was only a few separate occasions and I didn't want to seem all that pesky
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. "The squeaky wheel gets the grease" was an old adage my Grandmother used to spout..... it works! I have another amp from David that was in the little "Knight" chassis. That amp was like David's kitchen table amp (he's made just a few). It's a whole 7 WPC, that little guy can really trumpet my home brew horns
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## saidentary

achristilaw said:


> I was another bothering David and Alan concerning a new headphone amp from David.


 
 Many warm thanks to you, Dr. Blue and anyone else who pestered the venerable David Berning about a new headphone amp.  It has been wonderfully enjoyable for me, one of only 4 audio products that I've considered "magical," and I've been an audiophile for ~ 35 years.


----------



## Audio Addict

nephilim32 said:


> Why thank you audio addict.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Of course, this would be just to hold you over until you were ready for the microzotl 2
  
 Here is a link to the new v5
  
  
http://www.ssaudio.com.au/products/supreme-sound-opamp-v5/


----------



## doctorjazz

7wpc, I'd love to hear it.
And, thanks for lobbying for the ZOTL @achristilaw!


----------



## Jozurr

saidentary said:


> Many warm thanks to you, Dr. Blue and anyone else who pestered the venerable David Berning about a new headphone amp.  It has been wonderfully enjoyable for me, one of only 4 audio products that I've considered "magical," and I've been an audiophile for ~ 35 years.




What are the other three?


----------



## achristilaw

saidentary said:


> Many warm thanks to you, Dr. Blue and anyone else who pestered the venerable David Berning about a new headphone amp.  It has been wonderfully enjoyable for me, one of only 4 audio products that I've considered "magical," and I've been an audiophile for ~ 35 years.


 

 It's the natural leading edge transient from the Berning design. Conventional tube designs (SET's, other OTL'S and ultra linear) start and rise rather slow (that's most, not all IMO). Many transistor designs (not all) ring and bleed on the lead in uptake, then it goes downhill from there. David's design is like a cramp easing.....an earnest dimension opens, mainly in the important middle freq's. 
  
 It's been 45 for me


----------



## saidentary

jozurr said:


> What are the other three?


 

 My audiogon name is mdhoover.  The *other three magical audio moments* were:
 1. Audio Physic Caldera (the OLD, 3 box model), sometime in the mid to late 1980s.
 2. Intuitive Design Summit Loudspeakers.
 3. HiFiMAN HE-1000s.
  
 This is not to say that there haven't been many times I've thought things sounded excellent or even outstanding.  But when I say "magical" I'm talking about being _blown away_ by the sound.  All three times it was evident within a few seconds of listening.   For the Intuitive Design Summits, the HiFiMAN HE-1000, and the MicroZOTL 2, the magic hasn't faded over time.*  I suspect that would also be true for the Calderas, but I only heard them once, and it's possible that I'd perceive them differently now.  (I'm pretty sure I've generally gotten even pickier over the years, less easily impressed.)
  
*One of my kids had a party where one of the Summits' the tweeters got broken and both sides had to be replaced.  The original tweeter is no longer in production and the replacement is excellent, but less magical to me (very slightly bright-not harsh-in fact some on this site would probably think it's better than the original...).  At some point different tweeters will be installed if possible.


----------



## richard51

achristilaw said:


> @richard51.... "It's not that experience is the best teacher.... it's the only teacher". You have to ask yourself the relevant questions, from the type of music that is important to you, reaching all the way to just how much disposable income you'll dispose on the hobby. You have to educate yourself into circuit type, design and implementation. If your young and listen to Rap & Hip-Hop? Gear (other than Beats) wouldn't make a difference.
> 
> The single most important component? Synergy! The combining of attributes of two (or more) components to rise above their station and give a fluent portrayal. This hobby is a trap for the impulsive and those who lack focus. You'll spread money like jam and find the last move? Was either a sideways move or you took a step back.


 

 i understand perfectly your point....very wise remarks... i have 64 years old and i meditated about one and each of my movement toward audiophile bliss without too expensive gear....My end game will probably be the microzotl+some high end planars ( probably Odin)+ some high end dac... what i have now is very good for the price paid....In eleven months that will be the beginning of  the end of my exploration in audiophile world....I want the microzotl because of all i have read about Berning and all reviews here and there... I figure its impossible to beat it at the same price and to go beyond it in sound will be very very expansive probably in the  many  many thousands... that  is the conclusion of my investigation... thanks for your attentive remarks and  very distinctive 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




experience....


----------



## saidentary

achristilaw said:


> It's the natural leading edge transient from the Berning design. Conventional tube designs (SET's, other OTL'S and ultra linear) start and rise rather slow (that's most, not all IMO). Many transistor designs (not all) ring and bleed on the lead in uptake, then it goes downhill from there. David's design is like a cramp easing.....an earnest dimension opens, mainly in the important middle freq's.
> 
> It's been 45 for me


 
 I THINK I have an idea of what you mean. 
  
 Here's my interpretation: Although it's "smooth" sounding, that _doesn't_ mean it's slow or rolled off or overly warm.  This sort of natural leading edge transient is actually faster than most, and results in higher sonic RESOLUTION.  It lacks boom, sizzle, etch and grain.  The result is a smoothness of the sound with preservation of detail.  It sounds more "real" without resorting to psychoacoustic tricks.  An analogy would be turning up the contrast on a television to create the impression of higher resolution.  The picture may look more "detailed" but it's really just an artifact that emphasizes edge effect and in truth this is _less_ realistic, less accurate, and less resolving, even though it may be more dazzling at first for the novice viewer.  The MicroZOTL is different because it's actually faster and truly more resolving.  This results in (what may seem to be) a paradoxical sonic smoothness.
  
 Is that correct, or mostly so?


----------



## achristilaw

saidentary said:


> I THINK I have an idea of what you mean.
> 
> Here's my interpretation: Although it's "smooth" sounding, that _doesn't_ mean it's slow or rolled off or overly warm.  This sort of natural leading edge transient is actually faster than most, and results in higher sonic RESOLUTION.  It lacks boom, sizzle, etch and grain.  The result is a smoothness of the sound with preservation of detail.  It sounds more "real" without resorting to psychoacoustic tricks.  An analogy would be turning up the contrast on a television to create the impression of higher resolution.  The picture may look more "detailed" but it's really just an artifact that emphasizes edge effect and in truth this is _less_ realistic, less accurate, and less resolving, even though it may be more dazzling at first for the novice viewer.  The MicroZOTL is different because it's actually faster and truly more resolving.  This results in (what may seem to be) a paradoxical sonic smoothness.
> 
> Is that correct, or mostly so?


 

 You got it! "Smooth" usually means soft(er), too round, foregoing the details and limiting the resolve. "Detail" is a blanket term that might be more associated with the unrelenting, aggressive, fatiguing, brittle hardness that limits the amount listening because of creating fatigue. I wouldn't use those to describe the ZOTL. Natural tone and actual timber are the bedrock of David's designs. Normal descriptive terms and similes don't resemble what Berning is capable of because it's not like the typical amps sonics. The best amps still are synthetic by comparison.
  
 The speed of the Berning mimics life, life doesn't have a test lead hanging on it.


----------



## achristilaw

richard51 said:


> i understand perfectly your point....very wise remarks... i have 64 years old and i meditated about one and each of my movement toward audiophile bliss without too expensive gear....My end game will probably be the microzotl+some high end planars ( probably Odin)+ some high end dac... what i have now is very good for the price paid....In eleven months that will be the beginning of  the end of my exploration in audiophile world....I want the microzotl because of all i have read about Berning and all reviews here and there... I figure its impossible to beat it at the same price and to go beyond it in sound will be very very expansive probably in the  many  many thousands... that  is the conclusion of my investigation... thanks for your attentive remarks and  very distinctive
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 You get it Rich! Research and reflection will springboard you past the typical affiliate of head-fi. You can skip the very high costs and the resulting anxiety,settling right in and concentrating on your love of music. Bypassing the sad (yet comical) chasing of your tail. All audiophiles know the trap, the thing you love is misused. Music isn't listened too any longer, music becomes the tool for evaluating equipment solely, and your love of music? Tainted and perverted.


----------



## jamato8

People just need to buy the micro Zotl and sit back and enjoy the music. Cause that is what it is, a musical instrument.


----------



## davide256

Had an incident the other day where the right channel went out. Turns out the volume pot is connected with the equivalent
 of cartridge leads, sleeve connectors from the mainboard and pins from the volume pot; a lead came loose when brushed against
 during tube rolling. Not the best positive connections, will probably use some Cardas solder on them later. For now a squeeze
 with pliers of the sleeve and reinsertion of the pin was all that was required.
  
 The 6SN7 tubes don't seem to have a clear leader for a standout NOS tube. I've tried 60's RCA GTB (red lettering) and am now using a 1955
 Sylvania GTA (green lettering)...its more natural than the Tungsol in midrange, a bit lower in bass response and less edgy but with a trade off in transient speed,
 softens percussion.  Am curious if any other power tube type substitution is possible, where it would be possible to use a Siemens, Telefunken or
 Mullard tube?


----------



## Beagle

achristilaw said:


> The speed of the Berning mimics life, life doesn't have a test lead hanging on it.


 
  
 So true. So I ordered one


----------



## richard51

beagle said:


> So true. So I ordered one


 

 congratulations! i am a bit envious and will waited till your impressions....


----------



## richard51

here something that apparently beat the Zotl amp ( the review is by Dick Olsher who know the zotl amp )... the price around 10,000 dollars seems the only problem....
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Anybody knows Q-ton amplifier?
  
 its in the same price bracket than the viva egoista amp.... perhaps also better then Zotl amp....
  
 there is always a better something... The wise choose the best quality/price relationship...my last remarks will be that i think that synergy explain many thing in opposite reviews of audio gear on par with the subjectivity of ours ears...


----------



## jamato8

richard51 said:


> here something that apparently beat the Zotl amp ( the review is by Dick Olsher who know the zotl amp )... the price around 10,000 dollars seems the only problem....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Ok, but what tubes?  A big factor, IMO. Also I use the Mojo V power supply and while not cheap, it does improve the sound but to be honest, I would be happy with the stock supply.


----------



## achristilaw

jamato8 said:


> People just need to buy the micro Zotl and sit back and enjoy the music. Cause that is what it is, a musical instrument.


 

 Jam on baby!


----------



## achristilaw

jamato8 said:


> Ok, but what tubes?  A big factor, IMO. Also I use the Mojo V power supply and while not cheap, it does improve the sound but to be honest, I would be happy with the stock supply.


 

 You can roll tubes till the cows have returned and you won't improve the fundamentals of the design. Why is this? It's because David could wrap his head around the transformer..... that's why!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Transformers never transfer... that is the problem. It's not just the fundamental frequency under question, the harmonic and sub harmonics remain intact. The transfer of the transformer can't keep up.


----------



## achristilaw

beagle said:


> So true. So I ordered one


 

 Right behind you Davey!


----------



## richard51

jamato8 said:


> Ok, but what tubes?  A big factor, IMO. Also I use the Mojo V power supply and while not cheap, it does improve the sound but to be honest, I would be happy with the stock supply.


 

 thanks to your honest report i will waited for upgrading the power supply for sure


----------



## jamato8

achristilaw said:


> You can roll tubes till the cows have returned and you won't improve the fundamentals of the design. Why is this? It's because David could wrap his head around the transformer..... that's why!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Tubes are part of the design, they are a circuit and as such are a plug and play but you can see how the tubes affect the frequency response and overall sound (within the same family of tubes). The fundamental design is holistic and the tubes are part of that and so it goes to the tube and its quality. I agree that the design has to be right but tube are part of the fundamental (many 6SN7's sound different from each other).


----------



## achristilaw

jamato8 said:


> Tubes are part of the design, they are a circuit and as such are a plug and play but you can see how the tubes affect the frequency response and overall sound (within the same family of tubes). The fundamental design is holistic and the tubes are part of that and so it goes to the tube and its quality. I agree that the design has to be right but tube are part of the fundamental (many 6SN7's sound different from each other).


 

 Not so much in a hysteresis free circuit.... a good functioning tube with the call characteristic's of it's part number are what's important. The other designs that assign transformers for matching duties have much more influence with grid transfer changes. The ZOTL stands alone and is different. David's writings and experience kind of bear this out, I just want to remember where I read it. I've swapped around and find little difference....


----------



## jamato8

achristilaw said:


> Not so much in a hysteresis free circuit.... a good functioning tube with the call characteristic's of it's part number are what's important. The other designs that assign transformers for matching duties have much more influence with grid transfer changes. The ZOTL stands alone and is different. David's writings and experience kind of bear this out, I just want to remember where I read it. I've swapped around and find little difference....


 

  I can appreciate that but I do hear a difference in tubes. For the most part I agree with you and that is what is so spectacular about his design, that it uses the linearity of the tube and no negatives. I agree that transformers have their problems, though I do like silver wound transformers but if you have a Zotl, no need and all the better!


----------



## achristilaw

jamato8 said:


> I can appreciate that but I do hear a difference in tubes. For the most part I agree with you and that is what is so spectacular about his design, that it uses the linearity of the tube and no negatives. I agree that transformers have their problems, though I do like silver wound transformers but if you have a Zotl, no need and all the better!


 

 Yes, linearity is better with better construction and materials (ah, the good old days). Yet, a properly functioning tube makes more difference in a Berning circuit than anything else. I still have Telefunken's on the inlet and the nickel base 6SN7's from Sylvania on the outer edge.... hey I'm superstitious


----------



## Beagle

achristilaw said:


> Yes, linearity is better with better construction and materials (ah, the good old days). Yet, a properly functioning tube makes more difference in a Berning circuit than anything else.* I still have Telefunken's on the inlet* and the nickel base 6SN7's from Sylvania on the outer edge.... hey I'm superstitious


 

_I am down on my knees
 At the wireless knobs
 I am down on my knees
 At those wireless knobs
 Telefunken, Telefunken
 And I'm searching for
 Luxembourg, Luxembourg,
 Athlone, Budapest, AFN,
 Hilversum, Helvetia
 In the days before rock 'n' roll_**
  
 **Van Morrison "In The Days Before Rock "n" Roll"


----------



## achristilaw

Telefunken was the brand of radio.... before Grundig in Germany. From wire recorders to microphones from the old masters of Telefunken.


----------



## davide256

achristilaw said:


> You can roll tubes till the cows have returned and you won't improve the fundamentals of the design. Why is this? It's because David could wrap his head around the transformer..... that's why!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Disagree on the tubes...  faster, more linear tubes payoff in matching  the transient speed capability of the Microzotl. Wish Siemens had made a 6SN7 tube


----------



## jamato8

I got a new top that allows for the use of the 6F8G/VT99 tubes with the top on. If gives a clearance of 1/4 of an inch around the tube and works perfect.


----------



## richard51

jamato8 said:


> I got a new top that allows for the use of the 6F8G/VT99 tubes with the top on. If gives a clearance of 1/4 of an inch around the tube and works perfect.


 

 And this tube is so good ?


----------



## dpump

Here's a picture of the new cover with 1.5-inch holes for the 6F8G tubes. Also a picture of the larger switching power supply I purchased on eBay to replace the stock power supply. I think the power supply made an improvement, but it's an open design that came with no cover. You also have to adjust it to 12-volts and connect your on power cables. Trying to figure a way to enclose it but
  

  
 leave adequate ventilation, as it runs pretty warm.


----------



## achristilaw

Before I buy one, is their something wrong with the stock supply? Is the stock supply a switching supply? I'm not a fan of the switching supply.


----------



## doctorjazz

I do believe it is a switching power supply...I haven't heard it with an LPS, some have gotten one for it and say it improves the sound (look back in this thread), but not by all that much, sounds quite fine with the stock power supply (and, of course, a good power supply like Mojo, Uptown Audio, LH Labs, to name 3 I've read about in these here parts) close to doubles the price of admission.


----------



## jamato8

The stock power supply is a switching but switching supplies have come a long ways from when they were noisy and introduced problems into the sound. The stock supply works well and the micro sounds great with it.


----------



## davide256

I find using the HDPlex linear power supply gives me a lower noise floor, greater black space around instruments. It also increases
 the current capability vs. stock power supply, suspect if you use a less efficient headphone like  HE-560 that its a must. If you have a more efficient
 headphone than HE-400  you may notice less of a difference.


----------



## eaglejo

Wow, I had no idea this was even out.  In the past I've owned Berning's ZH-270 and the 300B Siegfried (the only piece of gear I've owned that's ever increased in price).  If this new ZOTL2 is voiced anything like his other amps and it sounds like it is based on this thread, then it is sonically my cup of tea.  Both the ZH-270 and Siegfried had tons of clarity and speed.  I could see some people not liking the speed of the amp.  It's a total audiophile cliche, but the Berning stuff definitely marries the best of ss and tube.  The 300B Siegfried was easily the best amp I've ever had and this includes several Shindo amps and many other top-of-the-foodchain amps. 
  
 I'll be placing my order later today.  If this is anything like his other gear, it will reveal everything in the chain.


----------



## richard51

eaglejo said:


> Wow, I had no idea this was even out.  In the past I've owned Berning's ZH-270 and the 300B Siegfried (the only piece of gear I've owned that's ever increased in price).  If this new ZOTL2 is voiced anything like his other amps and it sounds like it is based on this thread, then it is sonically my cup of tea.  Both the ZH-270 and Siegfried had tons of clarity and speed.  I could see some people not liking the speed of the amp.  It's a total audiophile cliche, but the Berning stuff definitely marries the best of ss and tube.  The 300B Siegfried was easily the best amp I've ever had and this includes several Shindo amps and many other top-of-the-foodchain amps.
> 
> I'll be placing my order later today.  If this is anything like his other gear, it will reveal everything in the chain.


 

 very interesting testimony.... i will waited for your review of the microzotl2


----------



## richard51

eaglejo said:


> Wow, I had no idea this was even out.  In the past I've owned Berning's ZH-270 and the 300B Siegfried (the only piece of gear I've owned that's ever increased in price).  If this new ZOTL2 is voiced anything like his other amps and it sounds like it is based on this thread, then it is sonically my cup of tea.  Both the ZH-270 and Siegfried had tons of clarity and speed.  I could see some people not liking the speed of the amp.  It's a total audiophile cliche, but the Berning stuff definitely marries the best of ss and tube.  _*The 300B Siegfried was easily the best amp I've ever had and this includes several Shindo amps and many other top-of-the-foodchain amps. *_
> 
> I'll be placing my order later today.  If this is anything like his other gear, it will reveal everything in the chain.


 
 i am curious to know if the microzotl2 will capture something of your experience with other Zotl amp...Can you said more about your experience with top of the chain amps versus Berning amp ?  i am curious because of what you have said... i think you are one of the few  in this thread with this kind of experience now...


----------



## doctorjazz

eaglejo said:


> Wow, I had no idea this was even out.  In the past I've owned Berning's ZH-270 and the 300B Siegfried (the only piece of gear I've owned that's ever increased in price).  If this new ZOTL2 is voiced anything like his other amps and it sounds like it is based on this thread, then it is sonically my cup of tea.  Both the ZH-270 and Siegfried had tons of clarity and speed.  I could see some people not liking the speed of the amp.  It's a total audiophile cliche, but the Berning stuff definitely marries the best of ss and tube.  The 300B Siegfried was easily the best amp I've ever had and this includes several Shindo amps and many other top-of-the-foodchain amps.
> 
> I'll be placing my order later today.  If this is anything like his other gear, it will reveal everything in the chain.




That description, the cliche "marries best of tube and solid state), is exactly the way I have described the ZOTL2. Speed and openness, detail, bass, no extra tubey "lushness", but lack of a certain solid state haze I didn't know was there. It's also be very curious to hear about the "Macro"-ZOTL components, preamp and amp (though I'm on a strict low-fat, low-cholesterol, no-equipment diet at present!)


----------



## eaglejo

richard51 said:


> i am curious to know if the microzotl2 will capture something of your experience with other Zotl amp...Can you said more about your experience with top of the chain amps versus Berning amp ?  i am curious because of what you have said... i think you are one of the few  in this thread with this kind of experience now...


 

 OK, so as far as speaker amps:
  
 Shindo Sinhonia:  great timbre & tone in a push-pull configuration
 Shindo Cortese:  Sinhonia plus all the SET goodies, namely immediacy and soundstage.
 Kronzilla:  back row presentation.  lacking dynamics and immediacy.  Not a big fan of it.
 Several other SETs that I'd rather not mention because they're highly regarded.
 First Watt J2:  this is the closest amp I've had to the Berning 300B Siegfried.  Very similar sonically and a steal at the used Audiogon prices.  
 Crayon Integrated:  Intoxicating detail but lacking all that a good tube set-up brings to the detail.
 Several Cary amps:  nothing to write home about.  old school tube sound.
  
 So, the best system I ever had was a Tom Evans Vibe/Pulse mated to a 300B Siegfried with Western Electrics, Avantgarde Duo Omegas with TBI subs and custom brass stands, and an Audio Aero Capitole MKII SE.  Dedicated room and lines and Isoclean power conditioning being fed by their balanced transformer.  Cabling was Stealth Indra.  Everything was treated.  The closest wall was about 12 feet from the speaker.  This is when I was single and could self-indulge.  All the amps I mentioned above were used in this rig with the exception of the Crayon.  The combination was orgasmic for my preferred sonic habitat. Every genre of music sounded good.  I love an immediate and dynamic wall of sound.  This had it in spades.  It also had the organic layering of a good tube rig.  Transients would trail  off seemingly forever.  Leading edges were ss like but not grating.  The music just layered itself onto itself.  Hard to describe but the closest thing aurally is waves on a beach.  I've been in the hobby since 2000.  There's a ton of other gear I haven't mentioned.  The Berning stuff that I've had has had a distinct sonic signature.  If you like it, then this is the highest and best representation of it.  You'd likely want to mate it to good tubed sources.  
  
 If the MicroZotl2 is what I think it is and you like this soundscape, you will not do better.  I have lofty expectations.  My last great headphone amp was a 300B Eddie Current Balancing Act with great tubes, Stefan Art Audio Umbilical, and an upgraded fuse.   I will upgrade the psu on the MicroZotl2.
  
 I hope this helps and gives people a context for my comments.  I will elaborate further when I get the MicroZotl2 which I am about to order.


----------



## eaglejo

The order has been placed.  A Midnight Blue Zotl2.  Quite psyched.  Supposedly, the sonic signature is the same as his other gear.  If so, this will scale up with anything preceding it.
  
 I will keep everyone posted.  Don't mean to sound like a shill, but I LOVED his other stuff.  Anything that can play electronica chill, female jazz vocalists and Zeppelin all equally well is worth having.  I'll be mating this to some modded and hardwired LCD 2.1s which kill my friends 009's and LCD 3s.  James at Stefan Art Audio gave me most of the idea for the LCD 2 mod and then a fellow head-fi'r got me all the way home with the hardwiring.  The 2.1's sound like 009's but with bass AND dynamics.  At some point I'm going to get the HE1000s and possibly an Abyss.
  
 Fun, fun times!


----------



## DetroitVinylRob

Thanks drlenewmexico for the heads up and great review. I'm a big fan of OTL style amplification and am most familiar with Atma-Sphere and Transcendent Sound, yet have not heard a Berning endeavor to date. This headphone amp will be on my short list. Wonder how it compares with Eddie Current Zana...


----------



## drbluenewmexico

detroitvinylrob said:


> Thanks drlenewmexico for the heads up and great review. I'm a big fan of OTL style amplification and am most familiar with Atma-Sphere and Transcendent Sound, yet have not heard a Berning endeavor to date. This headphone amp will be on my short list. Wonder how it compares with Eddie Current Zana...


 

 Thanks DetroitVinylRob!  it was such a pleasure to have David Berning respond to my call for a reissue of the MicroZotl and then have the positive response
 of an upgraded new version!! and David and Mark Schneider did not disappoint, see http://www.lineartubeaudio.com/microzotl for all the details!
 I look forward to your comparisons once you get a chance to audition the Zotl2 and enjoy its unique sound signature!  It also is upgradable with
 a great power supply like the ones from Mojo Audio, etc. I'm also powering my desktop Foster Monitors through the preamp output on the Zotl 2 and enjoying
 wondeful speaker clarity and dynamics through it as a preamp!  I can really trust the Zotl2 to deliver the true sound of my source files, with
 musicality enjoyment, and accuracy, and it brings out the best in my audio chain of Mojo NOS DAC and cables and ATH W1000 cherrywood headphones!
 Planars also sound magnificent through it!  enjoy getting a chance to listen to it when you can!


----------



## eaglejo

saidentary said:


> My audiogon name is mdhoover.  The *other three magical audio moments* were:
> 1. Audio Physic Caldera (the OLD, 3 box model), sometime in the mid to late 1980s.
> 2. Intuitive Design Summit Loudspeakers.
> 3. HiFiMAN HE-1000s.
> ...


 

 Saidentary,  this is a great point.  There are certain audio moments where it's like, "Wow, that is an unambiguous leap forward in sound quality".  The first time I demo'd the Avantgarde Duos in a proper room, that was my first thought.  I've been doing this long enough that something shouldn't have to be audibly belabored,  it's instantaneous.


----------



## doctorjazz

I'd also like to thank Blue for getting the Zotl2 to happen, and calling our attention to it so we could all get to enjoy it! I had a badge knowledge of Berning and his designs from audiophile mags, but Blue's love of the original MicroZOTL and push for and review of its current incarnation made it happen!


----------



## richard51

thanks drBlue for this initiative and thread... thanks to saidentary and  thanks to eaglejo for his generous explanation and future impressions...Coming of a "connoisseur" of other Berning design and top of the line gear , i am more than eager to read your review....My intuition guide me to the microzotl partly because of the high quality of the testimonies here...


----------



## saidentary

eaglejo said:


> I have lofty expectations.  My last great headphone amp was a 300B Eddie Current Balancing Act with great tubes, Stefan Art Audio Umbilical, and an upgraded fuse.   I will upgrade the psu on the MicroZotl2.
> 
> I hope this helps and gives people a context for my comments.  I will elaborate further when I get the MicroZotl2 which I am about to order.


 
 Prediction: Your lofty expectations will be _met_.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  
 Quote:


achristilaw said:


> Before I buy one, is their something wrong with the stock supply? Is the stock supply a switching supply? I'm not a fan of the switching supply.


 
 No, there's (absolutely) nothing wrong with the stock power supply.  The unit sounds phenomenal with the _stock_ power supply.  However, apparently it sounds even _better_ with an upgraded power supply.  I don't have any plans to change out the power supply, because I'm thrilled with the way it sounds NOW--and that just doesn't happen for me all that often in high end audio.  But if I ever DO upgrade the power supply, it will be either the Mojo Joule V or one of the few others that people on this thread have tried and found to be better.  I won't just be snagging something off of ebay that's priced high and said by the seller to be "good."


----------



## jamato8

If the case were a little more sought, though it is fine with the top on, so that might not be right, this amp should be in the high end section. It is exceptional and even the devices it uses to transfer the signal after the 6SN7 6F8G/VT99 are hand wound.


----------



## richard51

jamato8 said:


> If the case were a little more sought, though it is fine with the top on, so that might not be right, this amp should be in the high end section. It is exceptional and even the devices it uses to transfer the signal after the 6SN7 6F8G/VT99 are hand wound.


 

 please explain... i am not certain to understand your point


----------



## jamato8

richard51 said:


> please explain... i am not certain to understand your point


 

 To me, high end gear denotes the best of what is offered. The best headphones, like the HE1000, the Pioneer Master series 1 and so on. And the same goes for amps or anything else.


----------



## richard51

i stumble on this review of the microzotl 2 ...Very laudative review
  
_*http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/1015/David_Berning_microZOTL_2_Headphone_Amplifier_Review.htm*_
  
  
 Right now i was burning in fire , a desire consume me of buying the zotl 2, and like Faust summoning mephistophèles, i offer him a drop of blood...but alas! my wife had already sign in with him before me , and i cannot now afford anything before 10 months...


----------



## saidentary

jamato8 said:


> To me, high end gear denotes the best of what is offered. The best headphones, like the HE1000, the Pioneer Master series 1 and so on. And the same goes for amps or anything else.


 
 Presumably you mean that "high end gear denotes the best of what is offered" *irrespective of price.*  That is to say, don't be fooled by the *relatively* "low" price*** of the MicroZOTL 2.  It performs at a much, *much* higher level than its price would appear to indicate.  Is this what you mean?
(I bet you'll say "yes," because I think that's what you mean. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)
  
**Note*: In *absolute *terms, $1100 is _still _quite a high price to pay for a headphone amplifier.  It's just that this one performs way above this price point, as Dr. Blue pointed out in his review.


----------



## saidentary

> Right now i was burning in fire , a desire consume me of buying the zotl 2, and like Faust summoning mephistophèles, i offer him a drop of blood...but alas! my wife had already sign in with him before me , and i cannot now afford anything before 10 months...


 
 Don't get TOO carried away now, Richard!  No need to sell your soul to the devil.  (Personally I think that would be a *REALLY *bad idea....even for the venerable MicroZOTL 2).


----------



## richard51

saidentary said:


> Don't get TOO carried away now, Richard!  No need to sell your soul to the devil.  (Personally I think that would be a *REALLY *bad idea....even for the venerable MicroZOTL 2).


 

 for sure it was only "metaphorically"... i will wait my 10 months without any deal with the bad One...


----------



## richard51

saidentary said:


> Presumably you mean that "high end gear denotes the best of what is offered" *irrespective of price.*


 
 Now i listen my Fostex Th 7-B ( 60 dollars in canada) and i enjoyed it more for their rendering of instrument timbre than my he 400 (5 times more costly)... Price is not really always an indicator of performance for sure...I am sure that the microzotl 2 is one of the great value in audio... All review go in this direction


----------



## jamato8

saidentary said:


> Presumably you mean that "high end gear denotes the best of what is offered" *irrespective of price.*  That is to say, don't be fooled by the *relatively* "low" price*** of the MicroZOTL 2.  It performs at a much, *much* higher level than its price would appear to indicate.  Is this what you mean?
> (I bet you'll say "yes," because I think that's what you mean.
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Pretty much sums it up.


----------



## doctorjazz

The Devil's not such a bad guy...


----------



## doctorjazz

Ok, here's a question. I connected my acs Encore to my MicroZOTL 2, but it didn't sound all that great. Closed in. Congested. Not at all ZOTL-like! Could I need one of those impedance matching cables?
I changed over to my new Pono balanced cable/adaptor for the Encores...ahhhh, more like it!


----------



## doctorjazz

So here's a question...LH Labs is having a "sale", they changed enclosures on sine of their Pulse series, and are selling some in the old enclosure at a decent discount (can look it up later, using my phone right now). Does anyone know if it would be a good match for the ZOTL? (not that I can buy ANYTHING now, on a strict gear -free diet...unless someone wants to buy my HE-560 or Koss ESP-950... )


----------



## richard51

doctorjazz said:


> So here's a question...LH Labs is having a "sale", they changed enclosures on sine of their Pulse series, and are selling some in the old enclosure at a decent discount (can look it up later, using my phone right now). Does anyone know if it would be a good match for the ZOTL? (not that I can buy ANYTHING now, on a strict gear -free diet...unless someone wants to buy my HE-560 or Koss ESP-950... )


 

 i dont understand why you want to buy an amp/ dac combination if you had the microzotl?
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 oops! i think i understand (my slow brain ) you want a mobile gear with your headphone ... certainly....erase my question of your mind !


----------



## doctorjazz

My fault. I left out one little fact...what I was referring to wad there LPS4, the linear power supply, which they were offering in about the $500 range (haven't gotten a chance to check it again, but roughly), which would be a few hundred bucks less than other known LPS units. Not buying anything unless there is some windfall in the Doctorjazz household!


----------



## eaglejo

doctorjazz said:


> So here's a question...LH Labs is having a "sale", they changed enclosures on sine of their Pulse series, and are selling some in the old enclosure at a decent discount (can look it up later, using my phone right now). Does anyone know if it would be a good match for the ZOTL? (not that I can buy ANYTHING now, on a strict gear -free diet...unless someone wants to buy my HE-560 or Koss ESP-950... )


 

 I'd be cautious with the LH Labs gear.  I have personal experience with their quality control.  I had issues with their psu and Geek Pulse dac.  If you want pm me and I'll elaborate.  And just an fyi, they're always have special sales.  Their core business skill seems to be overhyping their products.   I'd be much more inclined to get the Mojo or the Uptone units.  I also wouldn't expect the value of these units to fall off the face of the earth like the LH stuff.


----------



## doctorjazz

eaglejo said:


> doctorjazz said:
> 
> 
> > So here's a question...LH Labs is having a "sale", they changed enclosures on sine of their Pulse series, and are selling some in the old enclosure at a decent discount (can look it up later, using my phone right now). Does anyone know if it would be a good match for the ZOTL? (not that I can buy ANYTHING now, on a strict gear -free diet...unless someone wants to buy my HE-560 or Koss ESP-950... )
> ...




Thanks, I'm already in too deeply with LH Labs, hopefully perform well when I get the stuff, but point well taken, shouldn't get in any further than the deep hole I'm in :frown:

I have a Geek Out Special Edition, btw, I think it is a great sounding little unit (but, all the Geek Out units did have volume issues when they were initially released). Use it often line out into the ZOTL2, HEK headphones, really great sound.
The Uptown unit seems a bit more flexible than the Mojo (different outputs available on 1 unit), but I'm sure they're both great units from what I've read. And, I'm still on that gear-free diet.


----------



## eaglejo

doctorjazz said:


> Thanks, I'm already in too deeply with LH Labs, hopefully perform well when I get the stuff, but point well taken, shouldn't get in any further than the deep hole I'm in
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 My issue isn't the sound quality.  It's their quality control.  They need to focus more on getting their products to market, quality control, and less on marketing.


----------



## doctorjazz

eaglejo said:


> doctorjazz said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks, I'm already in too deeply with LH Labs, hopefully perform well when I get the stuff, but point well taken, shouldn't get in any further than the deep hole I'm in
> ...




Amen, brother!!!!!


----------



## lextek

Really, cool to see this reborn. The original was a great amp. Especially the ugly, brown one.


----------



## richard51

lextek said:


> Really, cool to see this reborn. The original was a great amp. Especially the ugly, brown one.


 

 please would you write some more past detailed impressions of the first microzotl ?


----------



## lextek

richard51 said:


> please would you write some more past detailed impressions of the first microzotl ?



It was about tenish years ago at a Head-Fi meet I had at the house. Someone brought the Microzotl, Grado SR200s and Kimber KCAGs. I just remember everything sounding just right. Tried some HD600s and remember them sounding good too. I tried buying the SR200s, he wouldn't sell. I've used Kimbers since.


----------



## john57

With the MICROZOTL2 the specs states 4-ohm load: 1W, 1% THD, with 14-ohm load: 0.5W, 1% THD most of my headphones are 50 ohms or greater meaning far lest than 500mw for headphones? Why stop at 14 ohms?


----------



## knowhatimean

I was reading a review of this headphone amp on Enjoy the Music & I came across a comment from the manufacturer that I got a hearty laugh from.

He commented that he believed the sound he was able to achieve was due in part to the fact that no multi-function parts were being used ! ( He,he.. Some of us have known this since the days of "Professor Peabody &
his boy Sherman"; There may be too many Shermans running around who weren't paying attention)


----------



## jamato8

I am getting some wonderful sound with the Pioneer Master Series 1 as they have finally broken in running with the micro. They take 600 or more hours, more like 800. They get very dry sounding for around 150 hours or more, not enjoyable and that is after 500 hours. I love the tune of these phones and they improve with the Whiplash TWau but this amp, with the Hugo and the Pioneer are a real joy.


----------



## saidentary

ZOTL10 Power Amplifier  *10 watts per channel with little or no hum*
Blah blah blah........
*Locking headphone jack w/ silver contacts*
Blah blah blah........
  
Urban HiFi says this is now available to order for 2400 dollars.  If my calculations are correct, its power output of 10 WPC is TEN TIMES that of the MicroZOTL 2 at 1 WPC.  (Mark Schneider told me that the headphone jack gets the full 10 watts of output.)
  
 I wonder how it sounds with headphones........


----------



## john57

Does the ZOTL10 even comes with a case?


----------



## saidentary

john57 said:


> Does the ZOTL10 even comes with a case?


 

 Yes.  I talked just now with Mark Schneider, who returned my phone call.


----------



## richard51

i am very interested by the ZOTL10 but is there a difference to run a planar headphone with that instead of the microzotl ? And is 10 watts plenty enough for the minnie maggies? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 For sceptic people who does not  know planars headphone first hand ...more power is more better....i had learn that the difficult way.... ( my wallet) The excellent Ember headphone amp ( 400 hundred with adapter and tube) is not in the same league than my receiver (100 dollars) i dont trust now anybody who said that planars can be driven by a cellular phone or cheap headphone amp  etc...Planars needs POWER and reserve current...


----------



## saidentary

richard51 said:


> i am very interested by the ZOTL10 but is there a difference to run a planar headphone with that instead of the microzotl ?


 
 I have no idea.  One would SUSPECT there should be some difference in a positive direction, but high end audio doesn't always work that way.  Certain product lines often have magic performers within a line that are better than the others, and they don't always fall at the highest price point.  In other words, for a given line of loudspeakers, the most expensive model may not be the best sounding.  I can think of several examples of this.  Here's one example: Way back in the 1980s, Denon's top of the line headphone was the AH-D700.  It sold for $120 (a _*lot *_of money for a headphone at that time).  Then they made an "upgraded" model with a titanium tweeter (or _something _in the headphone that was "titanium"), and this model was priced at $140.  It was called the AH-D900.  It sounded significantly *worse* (to me, anyway) because of the exaggerated and now somewhat harsh high end.
  
 So although I _suspect _it will sound better, there's no way to know without hearing it for myself in a direct A/B with the MicroZOTL 2.  Even if it's better, it would have to be a lot better for me to want to switch from the MicroZOTL 2.  I remain _*very*_ satisfied with the MZ 2, and I don't think there's very much room for improvement, but who knows?


----------



## john57

The ZOTL10 ues different tubes and might have different sonic characteristics. At RMAF I listen to the ZOTL10 using the Audeze EL8  while far from my favorite headphone sounded the best sound I ever heard from it on the ZOTL10.


----------



## Audio Addict

john57 said:


> The ZOTL10 ues different tubes and might have different sonic characteristics. At RMAF I listen to the ZOTL10 using Audeze EL8  while not my favorite sounded very very good on the ZOTL10.




Is the the ZOTL2 different from the Zotl10? Did they increase the output to 10 wpc from 2?


----------



## doctorjazz

I'd be curious to hear the ZOTL10, my impression is that it is really aimed at high efficiency speakers, not headphones so much. There are some really hard cans or there that would benefit, of course, but I don't think that is the focus here.


----------



## jamato8

doctorjazz said:


> I'd be curious to hear the ZOTL10, my impression is that it is really aimed at high efficiency speakers, not headphones so much. There are some really hard cans or there that would benefit, of course, but I don't think that is the focus here.


 

 We'll see. The HE-6 should benefit and since it will run in class A for the first few watts, any phone should be good to go, especially with the EL84, which is a great sounding output tube. I am curious though and will know in about 2 weeks.


----------



## saidentary

audio addict said:


> Is the the ZOTL2 different from the Zotl10? Did they increase the output to 10 wpc from 2?


 

 The MicroZOTL 2 is the second iteration of the original MicroZOTL from David Berning.  That's where the 2 comes from.  It's rated at 1 WPC output, not 2.  Although that sounds low, in practice it behaves as if it were a LOT more than that.  Multiple users have reported this.  The ZOTL 10 is 10 WPC and as doctorjazz points out, it _appears_ to be aimed primarily at high efficiency loudspeakers. However, all 10 WPC are available to the headphone jack.  Of this the first ~3 watts, according to Mark Schneider, are class A.  So in practical terms it would have about 3X the class A output power of the MicroZOTL 2, which is one WPC, and (assuming I understand correctly), all class A.
  
 Several head-fi members have had concerns about the 1 WPC output specification for the MicroZOTL 2.  This is in spite of repeated testimonials from Jamato8, doctorjazz, drbluenewmexico and me that it has absolutely no problem whatsoever driving the HE-1000s (or other headphones, in the case of drbluenewmexico).  Zach from ZMF Headphones heard my unit with his own ZMF headphones and reported that--_before he actually tried the unit_--he, too, was worried about whether it would have enough power.  Those concerns disappeared when he listened, and his post to the impression thread of the headphone meet where he tried it out is here.
  
 Even so, I think there are many who won't want to buy a headphone amp that's spec'd at 1 WPC.  The ZOTL 10 (notice, no "Micro-" in the its name) should allay those concerns with its 10 WPC rating.


----------



## doctorjazz

I of course don't think it can be a bad thing to have 10 wpc, and more class A watts, and it may sound better, as the LPS power supply upgrade does. But, there's no free lunch, don't know the price of those watts, but i'm sure it's higher m


----------



## Audio Addict

doctorjazz said:


> I of course don't think it can be a bad thing to have 10 wpc, and more class A watts, and it may sound better, as the LPS power supply upgrade does. But, there's no free lunch, don't know the price of those watts, but i'm sure it's higher m


 
  
 Urban HiFi now shows the damage at $2400 for the additional wpc.  They also have the optional top plate for larger tubes.


----------



## davide256

I have had a change of heart on tubing the Microzotl 2 after playing some new Reiner LP reissues. While the Mullard 6201 may be a little slower
 than the Siemens 81CC, theres no doubt on LP's that the Mullard delivers the goods in the midrange, that the Siemens misses out on what made
 the Reiner recordings great for sound.


----------



## drbluenewmexico

richard51 said:


> please would you write some more past detailed impressions of the first microzotl ?


 

 I have the original Microzotl, and its a custom blue case, not brown.  it works perfectly, original tubes.
 sounds almost as good as the new Zotl2.  the Zotl 2 is quieter, deeper black background because 
 of the external power supply.  also the original MicroZotl uses no transformer power supply, it goes
 directly out through an AC cable, so a really good power cable makes a significant difference in
 its fluidity of sound.  adding an external power supply such as th Mojo Audio ones makes a big difference
 in making the new Zotl2 have more body and tone weight to guitars and drums, etc. The original is still
 one of the best headphone amps in my headphone lab.
  
 Im considering selling my original Microzotl because I'm not using it anymore. it is perfectly functional if
 a little dusty. PM me if you are interested.  drbluenewmexico.


----------



## dpump

Keep in mind there is a 12VDC input on the back of the original MicroZOTL that would allow you to use an outboard power supply just like the microZOTL2 uses if you want to upgrade the power supply later.


----------



## doctorjazz

So, here's a question (which I'm sure no one here can answer)...ZOTL10 vs ZOTL2+LPS. The latter is a bit less money, but they're in the same ballpark.


----------



## jamato8

doctorjazz said:


> So, here's a question (which I'm sure no one here can answer)...ZOTL10 vs ZOTL2+LPS. The latter is a bit less money, but they're in the same ballpark.


 

 What headphones or speakers?


----------



## doctorjazz

Speakers I'm assuming the ZOTL10, headphones are my focus here.


----------



## jamato8

doctorjazz said:


> Speakers I'm assuming the ZOTL10, headphones are my focus here.


 

 The Zotl10 will put out approximately 3 watts into a load like the HE6.


----------



## john57

http://www.cnet.com/news/stand-back-and-deliver-the-mighty-little-klipsch-rp-150m-speakers/#ftag=rss.audiophiliac.ftag
  
 Check and see what amp is being used in this.


----------



## doctorjazz

Cool, speakers are tempting to try with the ZOTL...


----------



## saidentary

The "About" section of the Linear Tube Audio website is an enjoyable read.*  It goes a long way towards explaining why the stunning sound quality we're hearing from the MicroZOTL 2 _*isn't*_ "too good to be true," even at that price point.  Mark's so unassuming to talk to, so humble and down to earth, that you wouldn't know how technically proficient he is--until you have listening experience with one of his audio products.  This is very good news for audiophiles, I think.   
  
*_*No*_, I don't work for him, he didn't ask me to say this (or anything else--ever), we're not related, and I didn't get a discount on the MicroZOTL 2.  I've only talked with him by phone a very few times; we've never even met in person.


----------



## Beagle

The MICROZOTL2 is AMAZING! Best amp I've ever owned.
  
 And the customer service/support from Mark at Urban HiFi is just exemplary. Absolutely wonderful.


----------



## TomNC

@Beagle
  
    Could you describe the sound signature of the MICROZOTL2 in some detail? Is the sound thick/warm/neutral/lean? What about dynamic (punchy bass? Recessed mids? Or bright trebles)? Transparency? Resolution?  Does tube rolling make significant differences in sound? How is the amp compared to other tube or SS amps you have heard?
  
    I am in the process of searching for a mid-budget tube amp. Your impressions will be helpful. Thanks.


----------



## jamato8

tomnc said:


> @Beagle
> 
> Could you describe the sound signature of the MICROZOTL2 in some detail? Is the sound thick/warm/neutral/lean? What about dynamic (punchy bass? Recessed mids? Or bright trebles)? Transparency? Resolution?  Does tube rolling make significant differences in sound? How is the amp compared to other tube or SS amps you have heard?
> 
> I am in the process of searching for a mid-budget tube amp. Your impressions will be helpful. Thanks.


 

 The micro Zotl is mid budget but high end. I hear no deficits in the sound. I don't like warm and don't like cold or edgy. I like transparency, bass quality that is natural and clean with true bass notes and a dynamic quality that is what I hear in real music and this is what I hear. I know you weren't asking me but I thought I would throw in my 2 cents. For me, I like the tubes that came with it just fine but I also like the round plate VT99/6F8G but they require an adapter. Otherwise there are some great 12AT7 and 6SN7 tubes that can be fun to roll but a number of people enjoy the micro as shipped.


----------



## TomNC

@jamato8
  
   Thanks for your comments. Non-edginess is good as I will use the amp primarily with HD800, which is already quite bright in its stock form. How well can the Zotl2 drive your HE-6? I have one pair too.


----------



## Beagle

tomnc said:


> @Beagle
> 
> Could you describe the sound signature of the MICROZOTL2 in some detail? Is the sound thick/warm/neutral/lean? What about dynamic (punchy bass? Recessed mids? Or bright trebles)? Transparency? Resolution?  Does tube rolling make significant differences in sound? How is the amp compared to other tube or SS amps you have heard?
> 
> I am in the process of searching for a mid-budget tube amp. Your impressions will be helpful. Thanks.


 
  
 There is no sound signature. That's why I love it.


----------



## jamato8

The micro puts out 1 watt. For the HE-6 you really need more power. I would think 3 watts or more for the HE-6 and will try them on the Zotl 10, which uses 2 EL84 tubes per side for 3 watts into 50 ohms and 10 into 8 ohms.


----------



## TomNC

@Beagle; @jamato8
  
 Thanks for the input. It seems there will be a review of the Zotl2 on the Absolute Sound soon. I'll see what is to be written. I am tempted.


----------



## dpump

tomnc said:


> @Beagle; @jamato8
> 
> Thanks for the input. It seems there will be a review of the Zotl2 on the Absolute Sound soon. I'll see what is to be written. I am tempted.


 
 If you talk to Mark Schneider at Urban HiFi, I'm pretty sure he will give you a 30-day trial on the ​ZOTL2. If you decide you don't want it you will only be out the shipping costs. That's the way I purchased mine. You can also inquire about a demo or return and possibly save some money.


----------



## TomNC

@dpump
  
 Wow. Great tips. Thanks.


----------



## jamato8

tomnc said:


> @dpump
> 
> Wow. Great tips. Thanks.


 

 As I listen to mine right now, there is nooooo way it was going back. Best buy in a home amp I have ever made.


----------



## heyyeh

I will be receiving my MicroZotl2 in the next day or 2.  Relly looking forward to it.


----------



## TomNC

Congratulations. Looking forward to reading your impressions too.


----------



## doctorjazz

Congrats! Sure you will enjoy the ZOTL! Keep us posted.


----------



## aqsw

That microzotl40 is s beast. Im starting to save now. Was considering a Hegel, but the Microzotl is much cheaper and checks all my boxes.


----------



## doctorjazz

MicroZOTL40, huh? I assume you mean for speakers. Have you heard it? Love to hear some impressions if you did.


----------



## doctorjazz

OK, am trying to write my MicroZOTL2 review...just got the LH Labs 2G USB cable, connected it to my PC/Regen/Geek Out Special Edition/MicroZOTL2/HE-1000 (Norne Zoetic Cable). Have had this set up for a while. Man, things just went up a few notches, not able to stop lisening to write, just going tune to tune in JRiver, Dylan, Hi Rez, "Absolutely Sweet Marie" at the moment, that voice, everything imaging rock solid, drive/musicality up a notch (and it was great to begin with). man...should get to bed...nah...


----------



## saidentary

doctorjazz said:


> OK, am trying to write my MicroZOTL2 review...just got the LH Labs 2G USB cable, connected it to my PC/Regen/Geek Out Special Edition/MicroZOTL2/HE-1000 (Norne Zoetic Cable). Have had this set up for a while. Man, things just went up a few notches, not able to stop lisening to write, just going tune to tune in JRiver, Dylan, Hi Rez, "Absolutely Sweet Marie" at the moment, that voice, everything imaging rock solid, drive/musicality up a notch (and it was great to begin with). man...should get to bed...nah...


 

 I'm hoping that this cable is 1) reasonably priced (reasonable in "audiophile dollars," of course)*, and 2) available without a waiting period that has to be measured in geologic time**.  Oh yes, and 3) isn't limited to being used solely with LH Labs products***.
  
What are the answers (starting with #3, I guess)?  Never mind.  I should have googled it _*first*_, before pestering you with questions.......oh well...
  
*OK, Googled it.  $200   ....not horrible, not great either......meh.....  I'm sure it's worth it, but I'm not wanting to spend that amount on a cable right now........maybe later.
**OK, Googled that too.  Available now, it looks like.
***OK, Googled that three.  Looks like a standard, non-proprietary connector cable.


----------



## doctorjazz

Yes to all 3 Google researched answers...I actually did wait centuries, having ordered during the LH Crowd Funding orgy, did save a few bucks that way, but still not inexpensive. I have read that the 10G cable is even better, but it costs about the same as a good LPS, not much less than the ZOTL. And, of course, the law of audiophile diminishing returns kicks in, improvement not as dramatic (again, like what I've read about LPS).


----------



## Abuhannibal

Folks, I am an old Berning fan - have owned 4 of his power amps, at one time or another. Would love to try this amp. My issue is that I have two very disparate pairs of headphones - one Senn HD650 with Cardas cable, which I am sure would work fine, and the other being Denon AH-D7000's, which are both low impedance (rated at 25 ohms) and quite efficient. Question is therefore whether gain will be too high for the denon's. Can anyone advise?  TIA!


----------



## willsw

The 2 ohm output should be fine for your 25. I just plugged my 18 ohm, 110db/mw (your Denons are 108db/mw, I believe) Klipsch Image S4s into the amp and am listening at a very comfortable loudness around 10 o'clock on the knob, with my input volumes all at max.
  
 Edit: 9 o'clock would be more accurate. Started with a quiet recording.


----------



## Abuhannibal

Thanks - do you feel like you have a decent amount of micro-control over volume level?  Obviously I can just use attentuators or solder in a resistor, but want to be able to use my Senns also.


----------



## willsw

I have no problem adjusting down to, and within, a very quiet range, or a medium range of volume, or high, of course. In terms of operating easily in different slices of the volume pot, I also use this amp to power a couple of Klipsch RP-160M speakers (thanks for the inspiration, Steve!), which is a wattage difference versus impedance, but I never find micro-control lacking on either end.


----------



## kiertijai

*That microzotl40 is s beast. Im starting to save now.*
  
    Yes it is.  I am also looking for the impression too.
  
     Urban hifi also said that we can get the headphone out too.  May be we have to pay
 extra.  The input of the Zotl40 with have volume attenuator so we can control the energy output
 to the headphone section.


----------



## Abuhannibal

Awesome, thanks!


----------



## saidentary

abuhannibal said:


> Folks, I am an old Berning fan - have owned 4 of his power amps, at one time or another. Would love to try this amp. My issue is that I have two very disparate pairs of headphones - one Senn HD650 with Cardas cable, which I am sure would work fine, and the other being Denon AH-D7000's, which are both low impedance (rated at 25 ohms) and quite efficient. Question is therefore whether gain will be too high for the denon's. Can anyone advise?  TIA!


 

 I own the Denon AH-D7000's also.  No.  Gain is not too high.  Get ready for some BASS, however.  The MicroZOTL 2, as I understand it, is linear throughout the frequency range, including the low end.  So, to me the Denon AH D7000's almost sound boomy.    I think that's the Denons, and not the MicroZOTL 2. 
  
 p.s. You'll LOVE this amplifier.  It's MAGICAL with the HE-1000s. 
 p.p.s. I also own the old Denon AH-D700's.  That's seven _hundred_, not seven thousand.  I posted about them with the MZ 2 *here*.


----------



## Abuhannibal

saidentary said:


> I own the Denon AH-D7000's also.  No.  Gain is not too high.  Get ready for some BASS, however.  The MicroZOTL 2, as I understand it, is linear throughout the frequency range, including the low end.  So, to me the Denon AH D7000's almost sound boomy.    I think that's the Denons, and not the MicroZOTL 2.
> 
> p.s. You'll LOVE this amplifier.  It's MAGICAL with the HE-1000s.
> p.p.s. I also own the old Denon AH-D700's.  That's seven _hundred_, not seven thousand.  I posted about them with the MZ 2 *here*.


 

 Thanks - yeah, I can imagine the D7000's becoming a bit overripe in the bass. Probably would not bother me unless it's pretty bad.


----------



## doctorjazz

I've used them with some in ears, the Zen ear buds to be specific, work great (Zen has a high impedance). Also tried with the acs Encore ciem, a bit of hiss, not as good a combo.


----------



## saidentary

abuhannibal said:


> Thanks - yeah, I can imagine the D7000's becoming a bit overripe in the bass. Probably would not bother me unless it's pretty bad.


 

 No it isn't that bad.  But this tuning bias becomes more obvious with the highly resolving MicroZOTL 2.


----------



## Abuhannibal

aqsw said:


> That microzotl40 is s beast. Im starting to save now. Was considering a Hegel, but the Microzotl is much cheaper and checks all my boxes.


 

 AQSW, btw, I own the Hegel H160. Awesome piece. I am a big longterm fan of Berning, but don't neglect to audition Hegel's stuff. They are doing something very right.


----------



## crazychile

The lineartubeaudio site is a bit of a kludge to navigate. Are there prices posted for the Zotl 10 and 40?


----------



## willsw

The websites! My favorite topic . . .
  
 The prices are on www.urbanhifi.com, the (extremely similar looking) website for Urban HiFi, the dealer that distributes Linear Tube Audio (and, currently, only Linear Tube Audio, though that is not the ultimate intention).
  
 ZOTL10 - $2400
 ZOTL40 - $5800
  
 The websites will one day be clear and full of the information they should have, but lately man-hours have been devoted to design and production.


----------



## willsw

I should also add that anyone wanting to buy a ZOTL10 for headphone use should email Mark Schneider before doing so. After more time reviewing units with the headphone jack, as well as a conversation with David Berning about it, it seems probable that the ZOTL10 will remain an amplifier built for speakers only. There will be something more concrete to say in a few days, but I wouldn't hold your breath with your HE6s to your chest.


----------



## crazychile

Thanks for the info. The Zotl 2 is probably the best choice for my application anyway.
  
 I went through similar confusion with the web sites a couple of months ago., and couldn't remember the magic site that had all the answers. The problem stems from entering "Microzotl" into Google and Urbanhifi doesn't come up as an option until you hit page 3.


----------



## bazelio

Any comparisons of the MicroZOTL2 and the RSA Emmeline II Raptor out there.... ?


----------



## doctorjazz

I have an HR-2, which is a step down, not tubed, not otl, but it's what I've got. It's a bit cheaper, but not inexpensive. I'm closer to completing a ZOTL review; I'll compare it to the HR-2. Wish I could do the Raptor, but I've got what I've got (the HR-2 is a fine amp, btw, was my workhorse amp until I got the ZOTL, which is better imo).


----------



## Audio Addict

bazelio said:


> Any comparisons of the MicroZOTL2 and the RSA Emmeline II Raptor out there.... ?




When I had the MicroZOTL here for the June Chicago meet, never thought to compare. However the Raptor was not designed for the low resistant headphones out there today. It loves the HD600, HD800 and the 600 ohm T1 but not the HE500 or HE560 and I would suspect the HE1000. Those are why Ray developed the Dark Star.


----------



## doctorjazz

OK, just posted my ZOTL review...

http://www.head-fi.org/products/linear-tube-audio-microzotl-2/reviews/14472


----------



## crazychile

doctorjazz said:


> OK, just posted my ZOTL review...
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/products/linear-tube-audio-microzotl-2/reviews/14472


 
  
 Nice review Doc....
  
 I'm still trying to decide between this amp and the Schiit Mjolnir 2. The Schiit is $250 cheaper, balanced, and just plain more versatile. I need balanced outputs for my electrostatic amp, but could manage that through a balanced DAC like the Multibit Gungnir or Yggdrasil. The real question is whether I may eventually buy a pair of balanced headphones. Probably not as I also have the Stax bug. I'm leaning towards the MicroZotl as I really believe I would love it.


----------



## doctorjazz

crazychile said:


> doctorjazz said:
> 
> 
> > OK, just posted my ZOTL review...
> ...




Thanks-haven't been able to compare to Schitt, maybe I'll get a chance at the meet in Stamford Ct this weekend. I have balanced cables for the HE-1000, otherwise all my headphones are single ended. Got the balanced cables and adapters to be able to use the HEK with the Pono balanced (works well, believe it or not), and the Liquid Carbon, which I'm expecting fairly soon. My main stereo, speakers and such, is balanced, and it does seem to make a difference with the Pono, but I think it is all design related. There are single ended amps that are better than other balanced amps. Tubes often (not always) are single ended, so you generally give up (or pay a high premium) balanced in a tube amp.


----------



## bazelio

It's interesting.  This is a fairly long thread - 33 pages - and yet really only a very few people are actually providing listening impressions of the MicroZOTL2 in those 33 pages.  Doc, thanks for the extensive review, which obviously took some time.  Much appreciated.  I was surprised that "smooth" wasn't a prominent description of this amp in your review.   My main expectation of this amp is smooth yet articulate.  And that it's not going to impart a warm, romantic tube sound but rather remain dead neutral.  Would you agree?


----------



## doctorjazz

bazelio said:


> It's interesting.  This is a fairly long thread - 33 pages - and yet really only a very few people are actually providing listening impressions of the MicroZOTL2 in those 33 pages.  Doc, thanks for the extensive review, which obviously took some time.  Much appreciated.  I was surprised that "smooth" wasn't a prominent description of this amp in your review.   My main expectation of this amp is smooth yet articulate.  And that it's not going to impart a warm, romantic tube sound but rather remain dead neutral.  Would you agree?




Smooth isn't a bad word, but it connotes a warming, inoffensive sound, the tube sound that can also be a coloration, can mask detail. That's why I kept saying, "open", "detailed", but "without the solid state haze" that is found on many amps. But, it definitely is smooth, in the good sense of the word, not in the mellow, uninvolving way it can be taken. (I may edit it to give those details, since I guess I wasn't that clear)

(I was also surprised to see that I'm only the 2nd full review posted, but I believe The Audiophiliac, Steve Guttenberg, is going to review it on CNET).


----------



## crazychile

doctorjazz said:


> crazychile said:
> 
> 
> > doctorjazz said:
> ...


 
 Would love to hear your impressions Between the Schiit Mjolnir 2 and the MicroZotl if they are both available at the meet...


----------



## doctorjazz

Sure, if I can compare I will...meets aren't always the best place for comparisons, but I'm really curious about all that Schitt myself! (planning on bringing my HEK and ZOTL2 to the meet).


----------



## Ocellia

kiertijai said:


> I have tried another most difficult phone today : AKG K1000 bass heavy via speaker post
> I am very happy as the microzotl2 can drive AKG K1000 with authority at 2 Oclock with normal output setting of Weiss DAC202
> So I will leave my output at 2 Oclock and will adjust the volume of the Weiss DAC202 if I use different headphones
> Love the cello sound with the AKG K1000 + microzotl2
> ...


 

 This is MY concern about the amp (or any headphone amp)
 I use Wharfedale Isodynamics, that are lovely to listen to but VERY inefficient. I use a Hafler DH200 amp! 120 ohms. Specs say will handle not more than 25 volt rms music.
  
 My chances of finding someone who uses these AND has a M-Z is tiny!
  
 (Still wading through this string!)


----------



## doctorjazz

Yeah, sorry, the HE-1000 that I use is a bit hard to drive (wouldn't use your phone), but not terribly hard, the ZOTL2 does fine...haven't tried it, but I'd guess the HE-6 would not fare as well. Don't know these other cans, though, not sure how they compare.


----------



## bazelio

Interestingly, in this review the author uses the Oppo HA-1 as a reference and finds the soundstage of the MicroZOTL2 to be more confined.  I found it surprising that the SS Oppo would best the MicroZOTL2 in this area.  
  
 I'd be curious as to which other amps have owners compared to the MicroZOTL2 in terms of soundstage, and what were your observations?


----------



## mordicai

I'm planning on buying the new Enigmacoustic headphones, but my Bottlehead Crack won't run them, so Ive been looking for a new amp. I was going to just build the Sex, which everyone seems to love, but David's new amp looks like a fun way to go. I would imagine a step up from the Sex, but then I don't get to build it.


----------



## jamato8

bazelio said:


> Interestingly, in this review the author uses the Oppo HA-1 as a reference and finds the soundstage of the MicroZOTL2 to be more confined.  I found it surprising that the SS Oppo would best the MicroZOTL2 in this area.
> 
> I'd be curious as to which other amps have owners compared to the MicroZOTL2 in terms of soundstage, and what were your observations?


 

 One thing I have never found with the micro is that the soundstage is confined. It is natural and if the music is recorded with a acoustical aspect to the recording venue, it captures it. Imaging, layering and a wonderful soundstage are all there.


----------



## lancelock

I'm a new member. I came across this thread and have had the Micro Z for a couple of weeks. I am local to Mark and after a talk with him at CAF I took him up on an invite to go to his house for a listen. I was interested in ZOTL40 at the time and he did not have it at the show or at least it wasn't playing. It sounded great with his mini Maggie's BTW but the Micro ZOTL is what I left his house with.

My wife recently laid down the law about my late night listening and told me I'm getting head phones for my birthday. So, the MicroZ seemed perfect to go with my new Oppo PM1's. I like many others on this thread love this little amp and have been a true David Berning fan for some time. It is perhaps the best amp I own and I have a ZH230 powering Janszen hybrid electrostats. The 1 watt Micro, to answer another question on this forum, do power my 93 db sensitive radial speakers with authority and sound fantastic.

Today, I just got home from work and a new Uptone JS-2 Linear power supply has been delivered. I connected it to the Regen and the Micro ZOTL (has enough DC power for both)............ The Heavens opened up and I thought I heard Angels sing. I have found the end of the road.

Lance


----------



## saisunil

At the New York Audio Show, we sold three Micro ZOTL units. they were magical with HE-1000


----------



## saidentary

lancelock said:


> I'm a new member. I came across this thread and have had the Micro Z for a couple of weeks. I am local to Mark and after a talk with him at CAF I took him up on an invite to go to his house for a listen. I was interested in ZOTL40 at the time and he did not have it at the show or at least it wasn't playing. It sounded great with his mini Maggie's BTW but the Micro ZOTL is what I left his house with.
> 
> My wife recently laid down the law about my late night listening and told me I'm getting head phones for my birthday. So, the MicroZ seemed perfect to go with my new Oppo PM1's. I like many others on this thread love this little amp and have been a true David Berning fan for some time. It is perhaps the best amp I own and I have a ZH230 powering Janszen hybrid electrostats. The 1 watt Micro, to answer another question on this forum, do power my 93 db sensitive radial speakers with authority and sound fantastic.
> 
> ...


 

 No surprise.  Our journeys are similar. I have less opportunity for listening to my loudspeakers as well.  This amplifier (paired with the HE-1000 headphones, in my case) has made headphone listening magical for me like it has for you.  I think a lot of us (DrBlue, doctorjazz, jamato8, etc.) knew this amplifier would be the end of the road for many discerning headphone audiophiles.


----------



## lancelock

saidentary said:


> No surprise.  Our journeys are similar. I have less opportunity for listening to my loudspeakers as well.  This amplifier (paired with the HE-1000 headphones, in my case) has made headphone listening magical for me like it has for you.  I think a lot of us (DrBlue, doctorjazz, jamato8, etc.) knew this amplifier would be the end of the road for many discerning headphone audiophiles.




I must hear the HE-1000 eventually. I suppose CAF next year and I might even have some money by then.


----------



## saidentary

lancelock said:


> I must hear the HE-1000 eventually. I suppose CAF next year and I might even have some money by then.


 

 That will be fun.  But it sounds like the PM-1 is no slouch either.  That means you can't go wrong whether you decide to spring for the HE-1000 or not, since you already have the PM-1.  Not a bad "problem" to have.


----------



## NightDayAudio

We have one of the ZOTL 2.0s arriving today to evaluate... if folks in Raleigh, Durham, etc. are are interested, they are welcome to come by and give it a listen...alternatively, I think we need to do another pre-Christmas headphone mini meet for the area anyways... it's been a few months since the last one and lots of cool stuff has come out since the last get together...


----------



## saidentary

nightdayaudio said:


> We have one of the ZOTL 2.0s arriving today to evaluate... if folks in Raleigh, Durham, etc. are are interested, they are welcome to come by and give it a listen...alternatively, I think we need to do another pre-Christmas headphone mini meet for the area anyways... it's been a few months since the last one and lots of cool stuff has come out since the last get together...


 

 I noticed that you also sell power supplies.  As you almost certainly know, several people have reported significant audible improvements with various linear power supplies, most notably the Joule V by Mojo Audio.  No doubt you already thought of comparing various power supplies with the stock power supply of the MicroZOTL 2.  It would be interesting to hear your impressions of both the MicroZOTL 2 overall and of the unit with various different power supplies.


----------



## doctorjazz

saidentary said:


> nightdayaudio said:
> 
> 
> > We have one of the ZOTL 2.0s arriving today to evaluate... if folks in Raleigh, Durham, etc. are are interested, they are welcome to come by and give it a listen...alternatively, I think we need to do another pre-Christmas headphone mini meet for the area anyways... it's been a few months since the last one and lots of cool stuff has come out since the last get together...
> ...




1+


----------



## bazelio

NightandDay also carries the Unison SH which would be an interesting side-by-side compare with the MicroZOTL2....


----------



## willsw

If requests are being taken, I'd be curious as to impressions regarding how the Dharma sounds through the microZOTL2.0, as I see those are also in stock.


----------



## svmusa

Hello everyone, 
  
 Looking to purchase vacuum tube amplifier and being completely new to the tube world have few questions for the fellow owners of MicroZotl2.
  
 I would love to get the tubes displayed on the top of the case, this requires some holes on the top cover which I can manage. Any creative ideas or places for tube adapters and or sockets to increase the height to get the tubes out?
  
 Any one with dark blue color option for the case? curious to know if the power supply is also of the same color.
  
 Like to know the length of the connector between amplifier and power supply.


----------



## willsw

svmusa said:


> I would love to get the tubes displayed on the top of the case, this requires some holes on the top cover which I can manage. Any creative ideas or places for tube adapters and or sockets to increase the height to get the tubes out?
> 
> Any one with dark blue color option for the case? curious to know if the power supply is also of the same color.


 
  
 Hey, glad you're looking at the microZOTL2. I can answer these questions, if I understand them correctly.
  
 We do sell a cover with holes already in it: http://www.urbanhifi.com/collection/microzotl-tall-tube-cover (apologies for the photo quality, some little things just get pushed out of the way easily) for people who would like to put taller tubes in, but if you mean that you'd like the stock tubes to be raised up, I'm afraid I'll have to ask about that, or someone else can answer. 
  
 The power supply, and the rest of the case, is black for both options. Only the faceplate is a different color.


----------



## svmusa

Yes, I am looking to raise the stock tubes, Any idea on the length of the power connector cable?


----------



## jamato8

svmusa said:


> Yes, I am looking to raise the stock tubes, Any idea on the length of the power connector cable?


 

 Power connector cable? If you are going to expose the tubes then I would recase the micro Zotl. The back half is high voltage that that section like many tube amps, would be covered. I have made tube amps and preamps and always prefer the tubes out in the open as I love the glow and tubes run cooler that way. There are some excellent case manufactures but you would have to look around.


----------



## svmusa

Power connector - cable between power supply box and amplifier, looking to see if I can keep power supply in a bottom shelf as I have some space issues to manage on the rack..
  
 on bringing the tubes out, one thought that comes to my mind is getting few sockets I found online that are used for tube rolling and plugging them in a chain from the board -  but not sure if this is going to impact sound quality..


----------



## willsw

I will comment for full disclosure, in case you haven't come across it already in your research: the microZOTL2's tubes do not glow as brightly as your typical tube amp, a consequence of the design that allows the tubes to last so long.


----------



## svmusa

willsw said:


> I will comment for full disclosure, in case you haven't come across it already in your research: the microZOTL2's tubes do not glow as brightly as your typical tube amp, a consequence of the design that allows the tubes to last so long.


 
  
 I was not aware of that, sounds like a good design. I am big fan with that traditional looks of amplifiers displaying the tubes...its one of those personal choices on aesthetics.


----------



## willsw

svmusa said:


> I was not aware of that, sounds like a good design. I am big fan with that traditional looks of amplifiers displaying the tubes...its one of those personal choices on aesthetics.


 
  
 That I definitely understand, hence the mention. I'd hate for you to be disappointed in even the visual performance of the amp. There is the two week in-home trial from Urban Hifi to see if you can live with the aesthetics when they're paired with the sound. I'm not sure which more traditional tube amp I'd recommend instead, I think there are some popular threads with this site's favorites.


----------



## saidentary

svmusa said:


> I was not aware of that, sounds like a good design. I am big fan with that traditional looks of amplifiers displaying the tubes...its one of those personal choices on aesthetics.


 

 That's understandable. If aesthetics is the primary driver of your headphone amplifier choice, then there are other, better options.  If SOUND is the primary driver of your headphone amplifier choice, then I'd highly recommend at least listening to the MicroZOTL 2 before buying anything else.  If you do buy something else before at least auditioning the MicroZOTL 2, then I would recommend NOT listening to the MicroZOTL 2 afterwards.  That would be a bad idea and you'd likely get pissed off.  Only my very highly biased opinion.........(but I'm *right*, dammit!).


----------



## svmusa

Given the praise and the price point I will probably end up getting one...

Would also want to try tube rolling..


----------



## richard51

svmusa said:


> Given the praise and the price point I will probably end up getting one...
> 
> Would also want to try tube rolling..


 

 exactly my thinking...


----------



## saidentary

svmusa said:


> Given the praise and the price point I will probably end up getting one...
> 
> Would also want to try tube rolling..


 

 It would probably be safe to buy without listening; yeah, it's that good.  That said, I'd almost* _*never*_ do it (buy without first listening) with _*anything*_ (not even the magical MicroZOTL 2) in audio, unless there were a no questions asked return policy. 
  
*One exception: If Duane Randleman, my audio dealer/guru, said, "Bill, you'll like this. I'd recommend buying it," then I would if it were financially feasible and my wife said OK.  He's the only person on the planet that I'd trust that far, and that's based on his proven track record with me over >>> 10 years.


----------



## svmusa

How big is the power supply provided with the amp? Can you stack on each other?

Did not see many pictures around with both together.


----------



## saidentary

svmusa said:


> How big is the power supply provided with the amp? Can you stack on each other?
> 
> Did not see many pictures around with both together.


 




                      |   << Pretend those two lines are an arrow pointing upwards......Power supply is right above them with umbilical coming out and then plugging into the back of the amplifier.  There's a small thing on top of it.
                      |
            Power supply is on the left in the picture, on doctorjazz's right. It has some little thing on top of it.  That should give you an idea of the umbilical's length also.


----------



## saidentary

svmusa said:


> Given the praise and the price point I will probably end up getting one...
> 
> Would also want to try tube rolling..


 

 Ask jamato8 about tube rolling. Personally I have no intention whatsoever of adding that to the mix.  Sounds like a nuisance to me.  But he's more adept at that sort of thing.


----------



## svmusa

saidentary said:


> |   << Pretend those two lines are an arrow pointing upwards......Power supply is right above them with umbilical coming out and then plugging into the back of the amplifier.  There's a small thing on top of it.
> |
> Power supply is on the left in the picture, on doctorjazz's right. It has some little thing on top of it.  That should give you an idea of the umbilical's length also.


 
 Perfect picture, looks like a big laptop power brick. The amp is looking good, way better than the pictures on the sellers website,


----------



## doctorjazz

That's a Pono on top of the power supply...if you know the Pono, that should give some idea of the relative sizes. I was using the Pono line out into the ZOTL, driving my HEK, which I use at home all the time.


----------



## svmusa

saidentary said:


> Ask jamato8 about tube rolling. Personally I have no intention whatsoever of adding that to the mix.  Sounds like a nuisance to me.  But he's more adept at that sort of thing.


 
 Sure, I also found old thread on the original version tube rolling.
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/8494/microzotl-tube-rolling-thread/60


----------



## doctorjazz

svmusa said:


> saidentary said:
> 
> 
> > |   << Pretend those two lines are an arrow pointing upwards......Power supply is right above them with umbilical coming out and then plugging into the back of the amplifier.  There's a small thing on top of it.
> ...




BTW, where did you get that devilishly handsome model?

:wink_face:


----------



## willsw

abuhannibal said:


> one Senn HD650


 
  
 Answering thoroughly an old question: I've just received some HD650s of my own and they exist happily alongside their very low impedance brethren.


----------



## mordicai

My Z arrives next Wednesday. Ive been using a Crack with my HD600, but am thinking of getting some Enigmacoustic phones with the Crack won't run. My plan was to build a Sex but Im going to give the Z a listen. I wish I had a Sex available to compare. Maybe I can find someone in San Diego with a sex I can listen.  Don't imagine anyone here has heard them both


----------



## NightDayAudio

I'll try to answer the questions asked and write more thoughts on sonics this weekend or in the coming days...  my 3 year old brought home another super virus from the cesspool of germs we call daycare.... so it's been days of 104 degree fevers, no sleeping at all at night, and someone being permanently attached to Daddy 24/7....  now it's rubbed off on me a bit... not a lot of time for listening nor really feeling up to it anyways... so things have been playing 24/7 breaking in...  will be back asap with more thoughts...


----------



## yukihasi

Anyone compared it with zana deux se or woo audio22? I was debating between zana and wa22 and mzotl2 came out..


----------



## richard51

this is a new very interesting review of the ZOTL :
  
*http://www.avrev.com/home-theater-preamplifiers/stereo-preamps/linear-tube-audio-microzotl-2.0-headphone-amp-preamp-review-2.html*


----------



## Jodet

richard51 said:


> this is a new very interesting review of the ZOTL :
> 
> *http://www.avrev.com/home-theater-preamplifiers/stereo-preamps/linear-tube-audio-microzotl-2.0-headphone-amp-preamp-review-2.html*


 
  
 Not much meat on those bones for headfi listeners in that review.


----------



## doctorjazz

No, but it is a different take on the ZOTL, which I've now read reviews of in use as a headphone amp, speaker amp (The Audiophiliac on CNET), and now, as a preamp. Pretty cool, I'd say.


----------



## richard51

jodet said:


> Not much meat on those bones for headfi listeners in that review.


 

 the meat are : this guy love the Pre-amplification function.... It is interesting .... and he prefer speakers but begin to love headphone with the zotl.... it seems interesting...if not what are interesting? i am curious of all review of the ZOTL because i want one ...there is not much meat perhaps ...but crush the bones and  you will discover the marrow...


----------



## willsw

A fair amount of microZOTL2 customers purchase it intending only to use it as a preamp. Once the ZOTL10 and 40 are in full production and getting a little more time in the lights, you'll no doubt be reading more takes on how it performs that function (not to spoil anything, but those who have commented say it does it really well).


----------



## Jodet

willsw said:


> A fair amount of microZOTL2 customers purchase it intending only to use it as a preamp. Once the ZOTL10 and 40 are in full production and getting a little more time in the lights, you'll no doubt be reading more takes on how it performs that function (not to spoil anything, but those who have commented say it does it really well).


 
  
 I'd be interested in trying it as a headphone amp then seeing how it was as a preamp.


----------



## richard51

jodet said:


> I'd be interested in trying it as a headphone amp then seeing how it was as a preamp.


 

 one thing does not annihilate the other possibilities and for instruction if an amp is marvellous in pre-amp function and if this amp is an headphone amp my question is : will it be a bad headphone amp ? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 the answer is no brainer function....and i am like you primarily interesting to it for my headphone...


----------



## jamato8

With such low distortion, extreme transparency and very low output impedance, the micro have to make a great preamp.


----------



## lancelock

The Micro ZOTL2 is a great head phone amp. Curiosity got the best of me so I put it into my main system as a preamp and its very good. It seems to have no sonic character/ coloration of any kind, just completely transparent. It's like just a volume control floating in between the source and amp, nothing else. If your looking for a tube preamp to get a little tube goodness for your solid state amp, forget it.

I must say as an amp for high effiency speakers it's unbelievably good.


----------



## svmusa

I did put in my order today, should receive the amp next week and will post a brief review after break-in period.


----------



## bmichels

svmusa said:


> I did put in my order today, should receive the amp next week and will post a brief review after break-in period.




What headphone and DAC will you use it with ?


----------



## svmusa

In no way as much known brands...
  
 DAC - SMSL M8, on Beyer DT150, JVC DX1000, Senn HD380, Feenix Aria Studio/telefunken audion.
  
 Keen on tube rolling but given so many owners satisfied in stock form, I may hold on a bit...


----------



## vapman

I'm interested in one of these, but there's no harm in having the appeal of headphone amps be preamps. I bought my current amp because I also needed a preamp for my stereo system and only was considering options that doubled as headphone amps and preamps. I use it with headphones more than I expected I would, but it's really wonderful as a preamp. I look forward to seeing a few more reviews of this thing although I think I already want it.


----------



## yukihasi

It is very interesting how people are saying that mzotl 2.0 can out perform higher priced amps without any A/B comparison. Anyway, I just bought one myself and it's on its way now, let's see what it really can do.


----------



## doctorjazz

I've been very careful to preface all my impressions with, "I haven't heard the higher priced amps for the most part", or something to that effect, but I received the new Airist Audio Heron 5 last week, part of the tour, and it's a fine amp, but I like my ZOTL better (list $2K).



yukihasi said:


> It is very interesting how people are saying that mzotl 2.0 can out perform higher priced amps without any A/B comparison. Anyway, I just bought one myself and it's on its way now, let's see what it really can do.


----------



## bazelio

I have no doubt the ZOTL is a solid performer.  But still, this thread does lean to the fanboyish side of spectrum thus far, IMHO.  
  
 Some of my personal feelings on the matter (having actually spent a lot of time with the original mZOTL a decade+ ago) are:
  
 1. The MZ2 is probably worth every penny of its $1200 price tag.
 2. The MZ2 is not going to be a tubey sounding amp per se.
 3. The MZ2 is not going to be a giant killer.  For e.g. I suspect the GSX MKII (as an example) is going to do a lot of things sonically better.  But at 2X the cost and then some.
 4. There are $1200 to $1500 amps (tube and SS) which would make for great, direct A/B comparisons to the MZ2.  But we've yet to see any.
 5. The MZ2 seems to hold its own with hard-to-drive phones.
  
 Personally, I'd love to hear a DAC-19 / MZ2 combo.


----------



## doctorjazz

bazelio said:


> I have no doubt the ZOTL is a solid performer.  But still, this thread does lean to the fanboyish side of spectrum thus far, IMHO.
> 
> Some of my personal feelings on the matter (having actually spent a lot of time with the original mZOTL a decade+ ago) are:
> 
> ...





I have no problem with your impressions, I'd agree you are likely to be able to better the ZOTL, but it will cost you...(have also compared to RSA-HR-2, like ZOTL better, and LC, also like ZOTL better, but still in my kazillion hour LC break in...)
I'm happy to do the comparisons with any $1200-$1500 (or more expensive) amps, please SEND THEM OVER!!!


----------



## bazelio

doctorjazz said:


> I have no problem with your impressions, I'd agree you are likely to be able to better the ZOTL, but it will cost you...(have also compared to RSA-HR-2, like ZOTL better, and LC, also like ZOTL better, but still in my kazillion hour LC break in...)
> I'm happy to do the comparisons with any $1200-$1500 (or more expensive) amps, please SEND THEM OVER!!!


 
  
  
 The LC is a very solid performer. But it's 50% of the cost also.  I heard the LC + DAC-19 at a local meet, and truth be told, that was a combo I could live happily with for a long time... especially at work.  A detailed compare of the LC and MZ2 would be of value here, IMO.


----------



## doctorjazz

I'll compare ZOTL and LC in a few days, when break in is complete, but, tbh, I don't think it will change in a night and day sort of way. And, saying the ZOTL better it isn't damning the LC-as you note, the ZOTL is about twice as expensive, and I like what I'm hearing from the LC in its own right. It is very light and easy to move around, and I can see it making many folks very happy (does well with the HE-1000, from my initial impressions). I know I got some upset with the initial impressions on the LC thread, where the general consensus is that it is the best thing since Mother's Milk, and it IS a really good performer at the price point. More to come...



bazelio said:


> doctorjazz said:
> 
> 
> > I have no problem with your impressions, I'd agree you are likely to be able to better the ZOTL, but it will cost you...(have also compared to RSA-HR-2, like ZOTL better, and LC, also like ZOTL better, but still in my kazillion hour LC break in...)
> ...


----------



## Mr Rick

doctorjazz said:


> I'll compare ZOTL and LC in a few days, when break in is complete, but, tbh, I don't think it will change in a night and day sort of way. And, saying the ZOTL better it isn't damning the LC-as you note, the ZOTL is about twice as expensive, and I like what I'm hearing from the LC in its own right. It is very light and easy to move around, and I can see it making many folks very happy (does well with the HE-1000, from my initial impressions). I know I got some upset with the initial impressions on the LC thread, where the general consensus is that it is the best thing since Mother's Milk, and it IS a really good performer at the price point. More to come...


 
  
 I'll be interested to read the comparison of the two into balanced cans.


----------



## doctorjazz

LC is balanced, and is preferred to be used that way. ZOTL is not balanced, used only single ended. I do the comparison with an HE-1000, have the Norne Zoetic balanced cable terminated balanced, and an adapter that I connect to the end to use single ended, so I can go back and forth reasonably quickly between the LC and the ZOTL.


----------



## Mr Rick

doctorjazz said:


> LC is balanced, and is preferred to be used that way. ZOTL is not balanced, used only single ended. I do the comparison with an HE-1000, have the Norne Zoetic balanced cable terminated balanced, and an adapter that I connect to the end to use single ended, so I can go back and forth reasonably quickly between the LC and the ZOTL.


 
  
 So, do your HE1000s sound better on the LC balanced, or on the ZOTL single ended?  That would seem to be a more fair comparison , as the LC is optimized for balanced headphones, and the ZOTL for OE.


----------



## doctorjazz

mr rick said:


> doctorjazz said:
> 
> 
> > LC is balanced, and is preferred to be used that way. ZOTL is not balanced, used only single ended. I do the comparison with an HE-1000, have the Norne Zoetic balanced cable terminated balanced, and an adapter that I connect to the end to use single ended, so I can go back and forth reasonably quickly between the LC and the ZOTL.
> ...




That's how I listened to them when I first got the LC (the single ended LC is said to be like doing things with one hand tied behind the back); liked the ZOTL better, more open, more detailed, but I'm in the kazillion hour break in for the LC right now, will reevaluate when I disconnect the iPod Touch running on shuffle/repeat and put the LC into regular use.


----------



## Mr Rick

doctorjazz said:


> That's how I listened to them when I first got the LC (the single ended LC is said to be like doing things with one hand tied behind the back); liked the ZOTL better, more open, more detailed, but I'm in the kazillion hour break in for the LC right now, will reevaluate when I disconnect the iPod Touch running on shuffle/repeat and put the LC into regular use.


 
  
 Fair assessment. Enjoy your evaluation.


----------



## bazelio

mr rick said:


> I'll be interested to read the comparison of the two into balanced cans.


 
  
 The MZ2 doesn't have a balanced headphone output.


----------



## jamato8

With the 3D presentation of the micro, I don't think it will be hurt by a comparison to a balanced amp. Now a balanced micro would be a whole lot of fun but the SE micro does a fantastic job.


----------



## saidentary

bazelio said:


> I have no doubt the ZOTL is a solid performer.  But still, this thread does lean to the fanboyish side of spectrum thus far, IMHO.



I'd be thinking the exact same thing.  There's a reason for this excitement.  I know you've heard the original.  So has drbluenewmexico.  He states that the MZ2 is significantly better than the original, which was legendary*, of course.  You really need to hear the unit.  When I first got it out and picked it up I thought I'd made a mistake.  There was no way this light little box (with its even smaller power supply) was going to drive the HE-1000s adequately.  Well, it DID.   I've been an audiophile since the late 1970's.  To my ears, this little amplifier is so good that I'm actually uttering the "s" word, _*satisfied*_.

The point is this: Don't let the price fool you. 
 



Spoiler: Click here to see a more extended discussion of price vs performance in high end audio.



I'm concerned that (otherwise intelligent and discerning) people will dismiss this amplifier out of hand because it's priced so far below its performance level.  That would be ironic and unfortunate, especially on this site where people are constantly bitching about exorbitant prices.  I like this pricing model waaaaaayyyy better than that of the new Orpheus system from Sennheiser.  Perhaps the $55,000 price is justified, based on research and development costs.  But I can't help but wonder whether their marketing department played the central role in picking the absurd price point; are they the targeting those among us who assume a more or less linear relationship between price and performance?  My experience as an audiophile has shown me--repeatedly--that:


1) Yes, there is a positive correlation between price and performance _*most of the time*_.


2) However, there are many, many, _many_ glaring exceptions to this correlation, sometimes even within the same product line (this is particularly true, in my opinion and experience, for loudspeakers, where a manufacturer will have a gem at a certain price point and then screw things up trying to get fancy with more drivers that they don't know how to coherently integrate in their "upgraded" model).


3) Sometimes this correlation doesn't even exist.


The point is that, to my ears and to the ears of several others, this is an astounding, magical amplifier, and this is true in absolute terms, irrespective of its price.  The fact that some people will be too concrete in their thinking to even consider it is regrettable, but probably inevitable.  Most of us can only hope that this effect ("expectation bias" based on price, causing loss of sales because it isn't "expensive enough to sound great") is not significant enough to dissuade other manufacturers from pricing _their_ products based on common sense and ethics.  We'll see.


 




*I've never heard the original.


----------



## bazelio

I think we have 38 pages and yet still a very small sample size (i.e. the same handful of folks are posting ad nauseam), along with a lack of suitable reference equipment comparison, price aside (price wasn't *my* point).  Nevertheless, I have no doubt that you folks like what you hear and don't think you're embellishing.  How about this: I challenge MZ2 owners to name one, just one, area in which the MZ2 could improve sonically.  In the previous 560 thread posts, though I've probably skipped a few, I don't think I've seen one mentioned.  I saw this in one of the two reviews under "cons": _microdetail that much more expensive amps can provide is not there, looses chest thumpng (sic) bass._  Both believable and likely IMO.  This sort of honest and transparent feedback starts to bring things back down to earth a bit... in a good way.


----------



## willsw

bazelio said:


> I think we have 38 pages and yet still a very small sample size (i.e. the same handful of folks are posting ad nauseam), along with a lack of suitable reference equipment comparison, price aside (price wasn't *my* point).  Nevertheless, I have no doubt that you folks like what you hear and don't think you're embellishing.  How about this: I challenge MZ2 owners to name one, just one, area in which the MZ2 could improve sonically.  In the previous 560 thread posts, though I've probably skipped a few, I don't think I've seen one mentioned.  I saw this in one of the two reviews under "cons": _microdetail that much more expensive amps can provide is not there, looses chest thumpng (sic) bass._  Both believable and likely IMO.  This sort of honest and transparent feedback starts to bring things back down to earth a bit... in a good way.


 
  
 Not in this thread, of course, but Steve Guttenberg does do a short head-to-head with the Schiit Ragnarok (an interesting amp to compare the microZOTL2 to, and also the amp he had just named his component of the year) in his Audiophiliac Review. 
  
 At Linear Tube Audio, we've certainly heard criticisms of the design of the microZOTL2, if not the sound, all of which are considered, and some of which, well, we'll see.


----------



## doctorjazz

bazelio said:


> I think we have 38 pages and yet still a very small sample size (i.e. the same handful of folks are posting ad nauseam), along with a lack of suitable reference equipment comparison, price aside (price wasn't *my* point).  Nevertheless, I have no doubt that you folks like what you hear and don't think you're embellishing.  How about this: I challenge MZ2 owners to name one, just one, area in which the MZ2 could improve sonically.  In the previous 560 thread posts, though I've probably skipped a few, I don't think I've seen one mentioned.  I saw this in one of the two reviews under "cons": _[COLOR=3B3B3B]microdetail that much more expensive amps can provide is not there, looses chest thumpng (sic) bass.[/COLOR]_[COLOR=3B3B3B]  Both believable and likely IMO.  This sort of honest and transparent feedback starts to bring things back down to earth a bit... in a good way.  [/COLOR]




Y'know, this is basically a users forum. I don't know about you, but I don't have 10 different multikilobuck amps sitting around to compare the ZOTL to. I'm always careful to note that it is more expensive than the others I have. I have listened a bit at meets, but these are really bad places to notice small subtle differences in gear, at least for me. I would say the ZOTL, compared to my other amps, if I want to find a criticism, sometimes the other amps feel like there is a bit more "there" there, bass a bit denser, tone colors a bit more full, if you will. But, I find this comes at the expense of detail and air/space, it's a bit of coarsening, if you will, of the sound. It is sometimes pleasing, though, a bit more bass oomph, with less texture. Not that the ZOTL is weak here, but the solid states I have to compare it to may be a bit more forward in that way. It's a bit like the way people compare Audeze and Hifiman headphones, the Audeze are described as being more mid and low centric...if you like that sound, you'd go for those more than the open HEK sound. Hope that clarifies a bit of this muddy subject.


----------



## saidentary

bazelio said:


> I think we have 38 pages and yet still a very small sample size (i.e. the same handful of folks are posting ad nauseam), along with a lack of suitable reference equipment comparison, price aside (price wasn't *my* point).  Nevertheless, I have no doubt that you folks like what you hear and don't think you're embellishing.  How about this: I challenge MZ2 owners to name one, just one, area in which the MZ2 could improve sonically.  In the previous 560 thread posts, though I've probably skipped a few, I don't think I've seen one mentioned.  I saw this in one of the two reviews under "cons": _microdetail that much more expensive amps can provide is not there, looses chest thumpng (sic) bass._  Both believable and likely IMO.  This sort of honest and transparent feedback starts to bring things back down to earth a bit... in a good way.


 
 Yes, it's a small sample size.  The thing is just so darned _*good*_, that's all.  My reasons for posting so much about this amplifier are as follows:
 1) It's extremely rare for me to like anything in audio this much, and I'm still kinda giddy about how great it sounds (to me)--it's a lot of *fun* to be able to post something positive.
 2) I'm hoping that people will listen to it for _themselves_, then decide what _they _think. 
  
 Area where it could improve sonically: Probably everywhere, since nothing's perfect. Honestly, nothing stands out to me.  (Maybe I'll find something later.)
  
 The praises we sing sound too good to be true.  I understand that.  You'll have to listen for yourself in order to assess whether these impressions are valid, or just hyperbole.


----------



## richard51

saidentary said:


> Yes, it's a small sample size.  The thing is just so darned _*good*_, that's all.  My reasons for posting so much about this amplifier are as follows:
> 1) It's extremely rare for me to like anything in audio this much, and I'm still kinda giddy about how great it sounds (to me)--it's a lot of *fun* to be able to post something positive.
> 2) I'm hoping that people will listen to it for _themselves_, then decide what _they _think.
> 
> ...


 

 i have read all this praise with the contextualization of the ratio  quality/ price.... the zotl is not the best amplifier in the world probably.... But the microzotl at his price is certainly an object of cult and devotion all over the net and not only here, not because he is the best, because there is no contender probably in his price range to deliver so much... and this is the  reason i will buy one in 8 months to come ...i had the Ember ( a cult amp also) now and for the same reason, people who had the Ember do want to  upgrade not because they dont like it but because they want to pay more for little more quality....After the zotl the upgraditis will cost probably many thousands dollars more....for way less difference all in all...


----------



## jamato8

I think IMO, you have to forget about price when talking about the micro Zotl. Why constrain it to some hypothetical category due to price? As an amp, it is one of the very best I have heard. And it is hard to find fault with the sound it delivers.


----------



## hrq12345

jamato8 said:


> I think IMO, you have to forget about price when talking about the micro Zotl. Why constrain it to some hypothetical category due to price? As an amp, it is one of the very best I have heard. And it is hard to find fault with the sound it delivers.


 
 How do you think about the Hugo and ZOTL2 pairing?


----------



## jamato8

hrq12345 said:


> How do you think about the Hugo and ZOTL2 pairing?


 

 The Hugo and micro Zotl2 work very well together but not the Mojo. For some reason you lose something when the Mojo is paired with an amp but not so with the Hugo.


----------



## richard51

jamato8 said:


> I think IMO, you have to forget about price when talking about the micro Zotl. Why constrain it to some hypothetical category due to price? As an amp, it is one of the very best I have heard. And it is hard to find fault with the sound it delivers.


 

 i understand your point and i am in perfect harmony with your remark.... i only want to say that ( i dont have the zotl ) that it is an amp that is  certainly marvellous for his price after reading all over the internet about his cult status and orgiginal and completely new topology....But i am with you on that : price is not an assurance on superiority ....
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 i know that fact and it is because that  and because i trust  some reviewer : saidentary, drBlue, doctor jazz,and you that i want to buy one for my endgame amplifier....thanks to you


----------



## hrq12345

jamato8 said:


> The Hugo and micro Zotl2 work very well together but not the Mojo. For some reason you lose something when the Mojo is paired with an amp but not so with the Hugo.


 
 Great. Right now I am using Hugo--Mjolnir 2. Maybe should buy ZOTL2 and give it a try. I feel good with Mjo2 but it's too large for my room setting.


----------



## saidentary

jamato8 said:


> I think IMO, you have to forget about price when talking about the micro Zotl. Why constrain it to some hypothetical category due to price? As an amp, it is one of the very best I have heard. And it is hard to find fault with the sound it delivers.


 
 I suspect that this is true.  In other words, I _suspect _that it would equal or surpass many--if not most--megabuck headphone amplifiers in a critical comparison IF the listeners didn't know what amplifier they were listening to (i.e. a blinded listening test).  However, I haven't done any critical comparisons with megabuck headphone amplifiers myself (blinded or not).  So I can't be _certain _how the MZ 2 would fare in such a test.  But the thing is, I don't have any urge or even desire to do any such testing.  This isn't because I fear the outcome.  It's because I'm *satisfied*; in fact, even the nasty, hypercritical audiophile part of me is satisfied with this magical amplifier (as I've posted "ad nauseum" to this thread).


----------



## jamato8

saidentary said:


> I suspect that this is true.  In other words, I _suspect _that it would equal or surpass many--if not most--megabuck headphone amplifiers in a critical comparison IF the listeners didn't know what amplifier they were listening to (i.e. a blinded listening test).  However, I haven't done any critical comparisons with megabuck headphone amplifiers myself (blinded or not).  So I can't be _certain _how the MZ 2 would fare in such a test.  But the thing is, I don't have any urge or even desire to do any such testing.  This isn't because I fear the outcome.  It's because I'm *satisfied*; in fact, even the nasty, hypercritical audiophile part of me is satisfied with this magical amplifier (as I've posted "ad nauseum" to this thread).


 

 Yep.


----------



## yukihasi

So UPS screwed me TWICE with my microzotl.
  
 First one never made it out, lost at the UPS store after drop off.
  
 The second one got delivered............to the WRONG ADDRESS, SIGNED BY RANDOM PERSON and UPS DON'T KNOW WHERE AND WHO!
  
 Oh, and they did the same to my new headphone package on the same day.
  
 I had to say that I never thought I would be this desperate to see it arrive.


----------



## doctorjazz

Wow, that's impressive screwing up, not just your average screw up!


----------



## saidentary

yukihasi said:


> So UPS screwed me TWICE with my microzotl.
> 
> First one never made it out, lost at the UPS store after drop off.
> 
> ...


 
 Are they (UPS) planning to rectify this set of mistakes?


----------



## yukihasi

They are "investigating" on both packages, which might took up to 8 business days and if they can't find them they will have to refund the shipper.
  
 The driver who did this only works on Saturday and the local customer center who sent the driver refused to call him because of "policy". 
  
 I know that they will have to rectify this eventually but it is just too much pain. Why couldn't they just make a single phone call to the driver right away, what's the chance he still remember what happened after a week? Seems like they rather take the long pain in the ass process and pay the refund than solve the problem through simple way.


----------



## willsw

yukihasi said:


> Seems like they rather take the long pain in the ass process and pay the refund than solve the problem through simple way.


 
  
 Having recently gone through a similarly absurd process of obtaining a headphone-containing box from FedEx, I feel your pain. I'll suggest we go USPS if we end up having to send amp #3 to you.


----------



## saidentary

yukihasi said:


> They are "investigating" on both packages, which might took up to 8 business days and if they can't find them they will have to refund the shipper.
> 
> The driver who did this only works on Saturday and the local customer center who sent the driver refused to call him because of "policy".
> 
> I know that they will have to rectify this eventually but it is just too much pain. Why couldn't they just make a single phone call to the driver right away, what's the chance he still remember what happened after a week? Seems like they rather take the long pain in the ass process and pay the refund than solve the problem through simple way.


 
 Annoying (as hell), yes.  But presumably a temporary situation; the most important thing is that they're going to cover the cost.


----------



## saidentary

willsw said:


> Having recently gone through a similarly absurd process of obtaining a headphone-containing box from FedEx, I feel your pain. I'll suggest we go USPS if we end up having to send amp #3 to you.


 
 I hope this all turns out well for all parties involved.


----------



## yukihasi

willsw said:


> Having recently gone through a similarly absurd process of obtaining a headphone-containing box from FedEx, I feel your pain. I'll suggest we go USPS if we end up having to send amp #3 to you.


 
 Certainly if it goes to that point, and send it to a USPS station, I will pick it up myself, enough of reckless driver mistakes.


----------



## doctorjazz

http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&jsonp=vglnk_144971733203910&key=416b062f03da6d676366e939c30f24f0&libId=ihzo97nb0100pdn5000MA1qspzy2h&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.head-fi.org%2Fmessages%2Fmessages%2Fview%2Fid%2F2290154%2Fbox%2F447193&v=1&out=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.xtremeplace.com%2Fyabbse%2Findex.php%3Ftopic%3D218870.0&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.head-fi.org%2Fmessages%2Findex%2Fbox%2Finbox&title=Head-Fi.org&txt=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.xtremeplace.com%2Fyabbse%2Findex.php%3Ftopic%3D218870.0

Link to a Jays LPS, considerably less expensive than done if the other LPS options...anyone have any idea if it might be a good option for the ZOTL?


----------



## bazelio

doctorjazz said:


> http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&jsonp=vglnk_144971733203910&key=416b062f03da6d676366e939c30f24f0&libId=ihzo97nb0100pdn5000MA1qspzy2h&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.head-fi.org%2Fmessages%2Fmessages%2Fview%2Fid%2F2290154%2Fbox%2F447193&v=1&out=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.xtremeplace.com%2Fyabbse%2Findex.php%3Ftopic%3D218870.0&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.head-fi.org%2Fmessages%2Findex%2Fbox%2Finbox&title=Head-Fi.org&txt=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.xtremeplace.com%2Fyabbse%2Findex.php%3Ftopic%3D218870.0
> 
> Link to a Jays LPS, considerably less expensive than done if the other LPS options...anyone have any idea if it might be a good option for the ZOTL?


 
  
  
 Looks promising to me.


----------



## doctorjazz

Hmmm, to rephrase the question, though I'm sure no one can actually answer it...is there a difference between a lower cost LPS and a higher cost one sonically, the way there might be with, say, an amp (I know this is not linear)? Do the components listed make this competitive (I have no clue what they mean)? Probably the only way to know, which I can't do, is buy this and, say, the Mojo LPS and compare, but was wondering if anyone had any experience. Thanks.


----------



## jelt2359

doctorjazz said:


> Hmmm, to rephrase the question, though I'm sure no one can actually answer it...is there a difference between a lower cost LPS and a higher cost one sonically, the way there might be with, say, an amp (I know this is not linear)? Do the components listed make this competitive (I have no clue what they mean)? Probably the only way to know, which I can't do, is buy this and, say, the Mojo LPS and compare, but was wondering if anyone had any experience. Thanks.


 
 I can already guess how this story is going to end 
  
 Especially if Mojo suddenly comes out with a Christmas discount or something similar... Probably doesn't hurt to ask!


----------



## richard51

doctorjazz said:


> Hmmm, to rephrase the question, though I'm sure no one can actually answer it...is there a difference between a lower cost LPS and a higher cost one sonically, the way there might be with, say, an amp (I know this is not linear)? Do the components listed make this competitive (I have no clue what they mean)? Probably the only way to know, which I can't do, is buy this and, say, the Mojo LPS and compare, but was wondering if anyone had any experience. Thanks.


 

 very good question... thanks to ask it....


----------



## dpump

FYI: I had an email conversation with ​Mark Schneider at Urban Audio on 11/20. I had written to ask him about a used Mojo Audio power supply listed on Audiogon for $599. I know Mark has been working on an outboard power supply for the Z2. Mark replied that he and David Berning have finalized the design for the new power supply. He estimated he would have the metal case for it in 5-6 weeks and be ready to start production. He didn't give me an exact price but said it would be less than the $599 Mojo I was considering. He also said his supply will be as clean as the Mojo, just built for the requirements of the Z2. Nothing wrong with the Mojo, it's a great unit, but it has a lot more capability than the Z2 needs. Personally, I am going to wait for the Urban Audio power supply.


----------



## doctorjazz

jelt2359 said:


> doctorjazz said:
> 
> 
> > Hmmm, to rephrase the question, though I'm sure no one can actually answer it...is there a difference between a lower cost LPS and a higher cost one sonically, the way there might be with, say, an amp (I know this is not linear)? Do the components listed make this competitive (I have no clue what they mean)? Probably the only way to know, which I can't do, is buy this and, say, the Mojo LPS and compare, but was wondering if anyone had any experience. Thanks.
> ...




You do? How about sharing with the class?


----------



## doctorjazz

dpump said:


> FYI: I had an email conversation with ​Mark Schneider at Urban Audio on 11/20. I had written to ask him about a used Mojo Audio power supply listed on Audiogon for $599. I know Mark has been working on an outboard power supply for the Z2. Mark replied that he and David Berning have finalized the design for the new power supply. He estimated he would have the metal case for it in 5-6 weeks and be ready to start production. He didn't give me an exact price but said it would be less than the $599 Mojo I was considering. He also said his supply will be as clean as the Mojo, just built for the requirements of the Z2. Nothing wrong with the Mojo, it's a great unit, but it has a lot more capability than the Z2 needs. Personally, I am going to wait for the Urban Audio power supply.




Interesting...


----------



## yukihasi

doctorjazz said:


> Hmmm, to rephrase the question, though I'm sure no one can actually answer it...is there a difference between a lower cost LPS and a higher cost one sonically, the way there might be with, say, an amp (I know this is not linear)? Do the components listed make this competitive (I have no clue what they mean)? Probably the only way to know, which I can't do, is buy this and, say, the Mojo LPS and compare, but was wondering if anyone had any experience. Thanks.


 
 Power supply in general(cords, outlets, power conditioners, LPS etc.) makes huge difference to the sound sonically, not only just the flavor but also the quality, this is well proved. I just finished upgrading the power cords of my system and it brings the sound to the next level. Though I don't have any experience with LPSs, since none of my gear requires external power supply, but it is safe to say that there will be differences, and it can also be very notable.


----------



## doctorjazz

Sure, this is true in a general way, but there are lots of flavors of power supply enhancements...specifically, there are a number of LPS units out there, one of which I referenced, which was less expensive than some others (that are well regarded). My question was not whether better/cleaner power is a good thing in general, but about the specific units out there. The Mojo, for instance, is supposed to improve the ZOTL sound, but, from posts here by some that have one, by a small, subtle amount. Does it then pay to buy a lesser LPS, if the upgrade from the Mojo is subtle? IS the Jays a lesser unit, for that matter, or does it save money by virtue of being Chinese? Inquiring minds want to know...


[COLOR=FF00AA]Power supply in general(cords, outlets, power conditioners, LPS etc.) makes huge difference to the sound sonically, not only just the flavor but also the quality, this is well proved. I just finished upgrading the power cords of my system and it brings the sound to the next level. Though I don't have any experience with LPSs, since none of my gear requires external power supply, but it is safe to say that there will be differences, and it can also be very notable. 
[/quote][/COLOR]


----------



## bazelio

doctorjazz said:


> Hmmm, to rephrase the question, though I'm sure no one can actually answer it...is there a difference between a lower cost LPS and a higher cost one sonically, the way there might be with, say, an amp (I know this is not linear)? Do the components listed make this competitive (I have no clue what they mean)? Probably the only way to know, which I can't do, is buy this and, say, the Mojo LPS and compare, but was wondering if anyone had any experience. Thanks.


 
  
 Contact Ben at Mojo and see what he has available in terms of demo units before you decide.  He's also more than happy to answer all questions you have.


----------



## bmichels

Re power supply upgrade, has someone tried to power the MICROZOTL2 OUT of a *battery* based PSU ? Indeed I would like to be able to transport it around With my DAP.


----------



## yukihasi

doctorjazz said:


> Sure, this is true in a general way, but there are lots of flavors of power supply enhancements...specifically, there are a number of LPS units out there, one of which I referenced, which was less expensive than some others (that are well regarded). My question was not whether better/cleaner power is a good thing in general, but about the specific units out there. The Mojo, for instance, is supposed to improve the ZOTL sound, but, from posts here by some that have one, by a small, subtle amount. Does it then pay to buy a lesser LPS, if the upgrade from the Mojo is subtle? IS the Jays a lesser unit, for that matter, or does it save money by virtue of being Chinese? Inquiring minds want to know...
> 
> 
> Power supply in general(cords, outlets, power conditioners, LPS etc.) makes huge difference to the sound sonically, not only just the flavor but also the quality, this is well proved. I just finished upgrading the power cords of my system and it brings the sound to the next level. Though I don't have any experience with LPSs, since none of my gear requires external power supply, but it is safe to say that there will be differences, and it can also be very notable.


[/quote]

 In this case specifically one can only tell by a A/B comparison with the LPS you mentioned. But I think Linear Audio's LPS would be the safest bet once it comes out.


----------



## doctorjazz

Makes sense.


----------



## zach915m

Made the plunge and ordered a Micro ZOTL 2.  I've heard this amp three times now and every time I have been increasingly astonished at it's ability to effortlessly drive the ZMF's with ease and fluidity.  Will happily be showing it at head-fi meets and shows in 2016 and will happily let anyone who wants to demo one in the Chicago area stop by and hear the ZOTL 2 with the ZMF's and whatever else is on hand.  Special thanks to @saidentary for turning me on to this bad boy at the Chicago meet earlier this year.
  
 I now will have three VERY different and fabulous amps to showcase my stuff, along with the Decware Taboo MK III and Violectric 281.


----------



## doctorjazz

How would you compare the 3 amps?


----------



## zach915m

doctorjazz said:


> How would you compare the 3 amps?


 
  
 Awesome Awesome and Awesome. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Honestly I don't have the ZOTL 2 in yet so I haven't done any real comparisons.  I'll try to do some reporting once I get the ZOTL in.  All very different designs with different sound sigs and purpose though.


----------



## doctorjazz

I expected it would wait until you got the ZOTL, but I figured if you added it to such a fine stable of amps you already have, you must have felt it does something differently than the other two. It certainly can wait until you get it, though.


----------



## jamato8

Running the micro from a Anker 12 volt battery. I got the battery the other day for Koss ESP950 electrostatic and the battery improves on the wall wart they send with the stats, so after reading the above, and realizing the the battery goes to 12 volts, I fired it up. The micro is off the grid now and the battery has no trouble powering it. I will have do comparisons of the sound to the Mojo V power supply, which should be interesting. The Anker battery is a 21,000 mA and costs 79 dollars.


----------



## svmusa

Got my unit this week, preliminary impressions are very impressive, pretty much reflects all the reviews so far. I am able to drive my Beyer DT-150 and JVC HP-DX1000 effortlessly using SMSL M8 DAC.

Fast and 3D sound stage, excellent imaging and black background, impact full and controlled bass, excellent Mids and Highs. its is like a mirror into the recording with so many details that are thrown at you.. With stock tubes this is an impressive achievement. Beats my vintage Pioneer, Marantz, Sansui and Yamaha receivers on speed and details. You can get lost in music for hours.

I have to let it burn in, got some Nos Sylvania GB 6201, 5692 and Kenrad VT-231 to try at some point but given the quality of stock tubes I could be just as satisfied with no changes.

This surely is no flavor of month, absolutely a steal for the price. I went back and forth with so many amps on purchase decision, glad to have landed on this and should be a end game for a while.


----------



## saidentary

zach915m said:


> Made the plunge and ordered a Micro ZOTL 2.  I've heard this amp three times now and every time I have been increasingly astonished at it's ability to effortlessly drive the ZMF's with ease and fluidity.  Will happily be showing it at head-fi meets and shows in 2016 and will happily let anyone who wants to demo one in the Chicago area stop by and hear the ZOTL 2 with the ZMF's and whatever else is on hand.  Special thanks to @saidentary for turning me on to this bad boy at the Chicago meet earlier this year.
> 
> I now will have three VERY different and fabulous amps to showcase my stuff, along with the Decware Taboo MK III and Violectric 281.


 
 Zach, you're very welcome.  I love the MZ 2, as you well know.  Now I'm also wanting to hear the Violectric 281.  People are writing very good things about it, and now I see that you own it as well.  Your Decware Taboo MK III sounded excellent at the Chicago meet as well.  It has a switch that allows adjustment of the sound, if I remember correctly.  It's great that you've found several amplifiers worthy of using to demonstrate your truly excellent headphones.  I predict that you'll have continued success (that's a pretty safe bet, yeah, I know....)


----------



## yukihasi

Okay, so UPS found the #2 unit and it was delivered to me last night, phew, listening to it right now.
  
 One thing for now is that it's powerful enough to drive a pair of AKG K1000 with the volume around half way, I tried both 1/4 jack and speaker out on them, both works well.


----------



## poocaso

Glad the mZ2 found its way home to you! I'm really enjoying listening to mine right now with the TH-X00 (that I finally managed to get from UPS earlier today).


----------



## yukihasi

poocaso said:


> Glad the mZ2 found its way home to you! I'm really enjoying listening to mine right now with the TH-X00 (that I finally managed to get from UPS earlier today).


 

 My thx00 got lost and found together with the mz2 lol, now it's at UPS store for pick up, nice combo.


----------



## doctorjazz

Curious about the THX00, with the ZOTL...since I got the HEK, over ear headphones Seem redundant, but I've read some amazing raves about these, was sorely tempted...Curious what you new owners think.


----------



## poocaso

yukihasi said:


> My thx00 got lost and found together with the mz2 lol, now it's at UPS store for pick up, nice combo.


 

 What is it with UPS?? I'm sure you will be very happy with MZ2 and TH-X00! Which DAC will you be using? I've got the Audio-GD DAC-19 hooked up; sound is very smooth and can be very holographic depending on the source material. I've got a Gumby coming in next week and it will be interesting to hear how it sounds with the MZ2.


----------



## richard51

i  have discover an other tube amplifier : the elise amp from feliks audio , less dollars than the microzotl, and an enthusiastic fury for it.... I dream about a comparison between the 2...They had already 300 hundred pages long thread .... some guy here have the two? i doubt it.... I cannot make decision to purchase an amp before 9 months i will wait for impression...


----------



## yukihasi

richard51 said:


> i  have discover an other tube amplifier : the elise amp from feliks audio , less dollars than the microzotl, and an enthusiastic fury for it.... I dream about a comparison between the 2...They had already 300 hundred pages long thread .... some guy here have the two? i doubt it.... I cannot make decision to purchase an amp before 9 months i will wait for impression...


 
 Lower price tag, ads -> long pages. It's half the price...I highly doubt it will stand any chance.


----------



## doctorjazz

I'll be happy to compare, as per my previous offers, if someone sends me one (Saidentary has made even more generous offers). If someone in the NY/NJ area is willing to bring it over, could also compare. Hard to know what to make of all the enthusiasm without direct comparison...I file the 50 or so Liquid Carbon threads, reads like it's the best thing since Mother's milk. It IS a fine amp for the money...ZOTL is much better.


----------



## jamato8

IMO, the micro does nothing wrong and everything right. I have no desire to get another home amp and can even run it off of my battery than I got from Anker batteries that cost 79 with a storage of 21,000 mA (lasts many hours) dollars because it has a 12 volt output! That makes it transportable and that is crazy for a tube amp like this. If I was going on a long trip I could take it and run it from a battery source. 
  
 Anyway, regarding sound, it plays wonderfully with the Pioneer Master SE 1, HE1000 and so on and they all sound so very, very fine with it. The only thing I do now is occasionally change a tube though I haven't even done that for about 2 months now. It is all about the music and this amp does that.


----------



## bmichels

*Anker batteries 21,000 mA ?*  could you please provide with a link or a precise ref ?   How long the MicroZOTL2.0 can run out if it ? 
  
 Thanks


----------



## doctorjazz

And, how does it compare to the Mojo LPS?


----------



## jamato8

I haven't run the battery all the way down, don't care to but I ran it a few hours and got down to 85%. 
  
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005NGLTZQ?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00
  
 It sounds very good or produces no real sound. You can use it plugged in and charging or not. Best sound is best unplugged so you don't pick up any hum.


----------



## richard51

doctorjazz said:


> And, how does it compare to the Mojo LPS?


 
 and how does it compare to the Mojo LPS ?


----------



## richard51

i am pretty certain that the ZOTL will be the winner, except for the sound i dont know  ( the comparison is not there yet ), there is already a great advantage because tube longevity, not necessary to upgrade tube, and the zotl accomadate low impedance headphone not only high impedance one, hence even if the sound of the Elise is in the same ball park than the zotl it is a better choice to buy the Zotl...and remember that the microzotl 2 can drive low efficient speakers...BUT the Elise amp is the only contender in this price brackett that i know of  (600 to 1500 dollars) for the microzotl2....
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 i will wait for this match review... But i am pretty certain to buy a zotl in the 8 month to come...


----------



## bmichels

jamato8 said:


> I haven't run the battery all the way down, don't care to but I ran it a few hours and got down to 85%.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005NGLTZQ?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00
> 
> It sounds very good or produces no real sound. You can use it plugged in and charging or not. Best sound is best unplugged so you don't pick up any hum.


 
 thanks for the link


----------



## yukihasi

Hey folks... Are those little 12AT7 removable at all? Having a really hard time to get then out...

Never mind,finally got them..


----------



## svmusa

Lol...I have some bloody scratches attempting to switch those and 6SN7 tubes. Rolling tubes is not easy as they are little too deep in the case that has sharp corners.

I landed on Sylvania 6201 gold pins and kind of split between Sylvania 5692 and Kenrad vt231, they both are good.

These were recommended from old tube rolling thread for original microzotl.

These NOS tubes I tried did improve on details, more controlled bass, dynamics and every other direction.

I still think stock tubes are pretty good but the lows seems tubby to my ears.


----------



## bazelio

svmusa said:


> Lol...I have some bloody scratches attempting to switch those and 6SN7 tubes. Rolling tubes is not easy as they are little too deep in the case that has sharp corners.
> 
> I landed on Sylvania 6201 gold pins and kind of split between Sylvania 5692 and Kenrad vt231, they both are good.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Ah, the Kenrad VT-231 I'm very interested in, albeit for a different amp.  What are your thoughts on it?  My only concern with that tube would be whether or not the bass was excessive.
  
 I suspect the 5692 is not as good?  I think those red base 5692s are a bit overrated, especially for the price.  I'd be far more interested in a Sylvania VT-231 from the 40's than the 5692.


----------



## zach915m

Had the ZOTL for 3 days now and have been running it, right out of the box it was a little "tizzy" but that's settled in and not it's just very detailed, punchy and musical.  The ZOTL does a great job of adding musicality without any cost to micro-detail and cohesion. 
  
 Quote:


svmusa said:


> Lol...I have some bloody scratches attempting to switch those and 6SN7 tubes. Rolling tubes is not easy as they are little too deep in the case that has sharp corners.
> 
> I landed on Sylvania 6201 gold pins and kind of split between Sylvania 5692 and Kenrad vt231, they both are good.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Will be interested what you settle on for tubes!


----------



## doctorjazz

Curious about tube rolling as well...my impression here was that it didn't make that big a difference, and most stuck to the stock tubes. I have done tubes I purchased a while back, not even sure what they are (can you ID them by the numbers on them?), might be fun to play around with them if they're good for the ZOTL.


----------



## bazelio

doctorjazz said:


> Curious about tube rolling as well...my impression here was that it didn't make that big a difference, and most stuck to the stock tubes. I have done tubes I purchased a while back, not even sure what they are (can you ID them by the numbers on them?), might be fun to play around with them if they're good for the ZOTL.


 
  
 Which brand tubes come stock on the MZ2?  I'm guessing Tung Sol or EH?   In the case of the Zana Deux Super, it comes with a Tung Sol 6SN7 (which is the first tube I'd consider rolling) and Craig's feeling is that just about any American old stock tube is going to be a noticeable improvement.


----------



## doctorjazz

Not sure what comes with it, could search it but on my phone. Any specific tubes for us old solid state kinda guys? Any good sources for tubes?


----------



## yukihasi

I am using Mullard 6201 as the 12at7s right now, they further improved musicality and bass quality, and Mullard tubes have this sweetness in the mid which I liked a lot. Good 6sn7 tubes are very expensive so I looked into 6f8g tubes as substitution, but will need a adapter to work as 6sn7, my adapters are still on their way. Will write some reviews once I got them.


----------



## jamato8

bazelio said:


> Ah, the Kenrad VT-231 I'm very interested in, albeit for a different amp.  What are your thoughts on it?  My only concern with that tube would be whether or not the bass was excessive.
> 
> I suspect the 5692 is not as good?  I think those red base 5692s are a bit overrated, especially for the price.  I'd be far more interested in a Sylvania VT-231 from the 40's than the 5692.


 

 Some like like the 5692 but they are not the same as the 6SN7, they have different operating points and are meant to be run at lower voltage and bias, which is why they have the 10,000 hour life. But I don't like them. I have a few NOS, maybe 6 or so and wouldn't give a nickel for them but I keep them for comparisons. The 5691, which is a 6SL7 type but again, to be operated at lower points is good. 
  
 The VT231 on the micro is a little sterile, IMO. I have them in 1952 NOS and then some earlier and many other 6SN7's, including the black Tungsol round plates in NOS. I like the 6F8G/VT99 with adapter in round plate. I have many 12AT7 types also. The Sylvania gold pin are nice but use the CV4024.


----------



## svmusa

bazelio said:


> Which brand tubes come stock on the MZ2?  I'm guessing Tung Sol or EH?   In the case of the Zana Deux Super, it comes with a Tung Sol 6SN7 (which is the first tube I'd consider rolling) and Craig's feeling is that just about any American old stock tube is going to be a noticeable improvement.


 
 Tung Sol are the stock ones supplied on mine, sounds pretty good to me, the bass sounds little tubby to my ears. I did read "Electro-Harmonix 6SN7 tube is about as good as a Syl 6SN7GTB"
  
 Here is the old tube rolling thread for original Zotl I am using for reference, results are pretty accurate on few of my rolling experience so far.
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/8494/microzotl-tube-rolling-thread/60
  


doctorjazz said:


> Curious about tube rolling as well...my impression here was that it didn't make that big a difference, and most stuck to the stock tubes. I have done tubes I purchased a while back, not even sure what they are (can you ID them by the numbers on them?), might be fun to play around with them if they're good for the ZOTL.


 
 I do find tube rolling impacts sound signature on ZOTL but this does not change ZOTL amp by any means but provides more transparency of particular tube sound characteristics. ZOTL is an ideal platform for tube rolling in my opinion since there are no induced changes from transformers into the sound stream, shows what each tube is capable of and its pros and cons to your own liking.
  
 It is just that amp is not as conducive for tube rolling given its tube placement inside the case, I do wish at some point the case cover can have the tube sockets on top and are connected into the sockets on the PCB via some male to female adapters. This will help to not remove the cover and avoid the hassle of damaging anything inside. Needs some convincing to the folks at Urban-hifii and Linear Audio. 
  
 I would recommend tube rolling to see which tubes suites your liking and more soever has synergies with your headphones.


----------



## svmusa

zach915m said:


> Will be interested what you settle on for tubes!


 
  
 This will be a interesting one to settle on, each have their strengths and synergies with my headphones (Beyer DT-150, JVC DX1000, Senn HD380).
  
 With inputs tubes being Sylvania GB 6201 gold pins...
  
 Sylvania 5692 seems to have more neutral approach to everything, bass is excellent much refined and so are mids and highs. dynamics, details, imaging and sound stage are are excellent. I do rate this at 10 and 7 for stock Tungsol on all of my headphones. This tube can live long on your amp and good for any headphones and choice of music you throw at them.
  
 KenRad VT231 is also at 10 rating but the sound signature is different, they are more in the fun arena and it does have few more decibels on everything, The bass on these guys is few notches up than 5692, an reference would be you are at the front row of the performance vs middle on 5692. The biggest synergy I found on Kenrad is my DT-150, my JVC and Senn seems not as much impacted and I like the DT-150 sound better than both headphones I have so far. Instrumentals on these is fantastic.
  
 That the dilemma...bottom line your gear and sound choice would influence which tube you may like in the end. 
  
 I will keep both and see if I can some how have the tube sockets on top of the case cover so the rolling is easier.


----------



## doctorjazz

Wasn't there talk of a replacement cover to make tube rolling easier?


----------



## svmusa

The only option they have is a cover with cut out holes for older tall bottle types tubes, I don't recall the tube numbers. This still requires openings the cover to pull old tubes out.


----------



## jamato8

svmusa said:


> The only option they have is a cover with cut out holes for older tall bottle types tubes, I don't recall the tube numbers. This still requires openings the cover to pull old tubes out.


 

 6F8G / Vt99. A great tube in round plate. They used to be cheap. Sadly not any longer.


----------



## doctorjazz

Quick look on Alienexpress for 6f8g tubes, $100-200 apiece. Not cheap...


----------



## yukihasi

doctorjazz said:


> Quick look on Alienexpress for 6f8g tubes, $100-200 apiece. Not cheap...


 
 Go look on Ebay, there are RCA 6f8g's all around the place for $40 a piece, better ones like tung-sol and Ken-rad are hard to come by and more expensive.


----------



## doctorjazz

yukihasi said:


> doctorjazz said:
> 
> 
> > Quick look on Alienexpress for 6f8g tubes, $100-200 apiece. Not cheap...
> ...




Thanks!


----------



## jamato8

doctorjazz said:


> Quick look on Alienexpress for 6f8g tubes, $100-200 apiece. Not cheap...


 

 That is a ridiculous price for standard ones and even for round plate. I would just get some good 6SN7's. Too bad, the 6F8G's were fun but now people have gotten greedy, as they aren't the uncommon and used to be a few dollars not long ago.


----------



## yukihasi

jamato8 said:


> That is a ridiculous price for standard ones and even for round plate. I would just get some good 6SN7's. Too bad, the 6F8G's were fun but now people have gotten greedy, as they aren't the uncommon and used to be a few dollars not long ago.


 
 Yeah, I believe they are under 10 bucks before...but they are still cheaper than good 6SN7's which is like $300 for a pair...


----------



## yukihasi

doctorjazz said:


> Thanks!


 
 Remember that you will need 6sn7 to 6f8g adapters plus the tall tube cover from urban-hifi...those will add some extra spending for using 6F8G tubes.


----------



## doctorjazz

Getting to sound like TOO MUCH WORK! (especially since I really love the stock version...)


----------



## jamato8

yukihasi said:


> Yeah, I believe they are under 10 bucks before...but they are still cheaper than good 6SN7's which is like $300 for a pair...


 

 I don't know where you are buying tubes but good 6SN7's are no where near 300 a pair. If the good one are, someone is getting ripped off. Maybe some of the Tung-sol black glass round plate are up there and some of Mullard types but they aren't needed for good or even great sound and frankly, the stock tubes are just fine and better than a lot of new old stock. I have NOS in the TS round plate and around 12 NOS 1952 Sylvanias and they sound good but not enough to warrant the price, IMO. And the Sylvanias, IMO, actually don't sound good in the micro.


----------



## svmusa

jamato8 said:


> I don't know where you are buying tubes but good 6SN7's are no where near 300 a pair. If the good one are, someone is getting ripped off. Maybe some of the Tung-sol black glass round plate are up there and some of Mullard types but they aren't needed for good or even great sound and frankly, the stock tubes are just fine and better than a lot of new old stock. I have NOS in the TS round plate and around 12 NOS 1952 Sylvanias and they sound good but not enough to warrant the price, IMO. And the Sylvanias, IMO, actually don't sound good in the micro.


 
 Agree with 6SN7 prices, there are lots of good online vendors I found and brought some with decent prices. I found decent NOS matched pair from $75 to $200 depending on which brand and how sought after they all are....
  
 Ebay can be good or bad for price reference, I would recommend few online vendors and they all seems to have good choices.


----------



## yukihasi

So anyone know where can I find some sylvania 6sn7w?


----------



## bazelio

yukihasi said:


> So anyone know where can I find some sylvania 6sn7w?


 
  
 Upscale Audio among other places.  These aren't terribly difficult to find.


----------



## yukihasi

bazelio said:


> Upscale Audio among other places.  These aren't terribly difficult to find.


 
 I bought my mullard 12at7s from them, but I can't find 40's JAN-CHS-6SN7W on it.


----------



## yukihasi

Well... after another research I found that the top 6sn7s are extremely expansive and rare.. I am thinking about buying mullard ecc33 which is around $300 a piece... Other ones like Sweden 33s30, Osram B65 and Telefunken I am having trouble to find them. Any recommendations for tube seller are appreciated.


----------



## jamato8

yukihasi said:


> Well... after another research I found that the top 6sn7s are extremely expansive and rare.. I am thinking about buying mullard ecc33 which is around $300 a piece... Other ones like Sweden 33s30, Osram B65 and Telefunken I am having trouble to find them. Any recommendations for tube seller are appreciated.


 

 Are you sure you will get a sound worth the cost? If you are going to pay that much I would get some Tung-sol VT99, a couple of adapters from Hong Kong (I got some excellent quality ones and couldn't have done better myself though I did shorten the grid cap wire length but that isn't needed - to shorten it). The TS round plate are excellent sounding in all areas of the music. IMO


----------



## Todd R

Anyone tried the MICROZOTL2 with Hifiman HE-560?
 I was at the Chicago meet and heard the amp with HE-1000 (which was fabulous) but the cable was broken on the HE-500 I had at the time so I didn't get to check how it did with phones that were a little harder to drive. The 560 seems a little more power hungry than the 500.


----------



## doctorjazz

I have the 560, though it collecting dust since I got the HE-1000...gonna sell it one of these days. It is great, but I only have so much listening time, and HEK monopolizes it). It does indeed sound terrific with the ZOTL.


----------



## jamato8

I have some 6N7G (which require an adapter as the pin is different) coming in to see how they work in the power section of the 6SN7. Not a common tube and many are from the 1930's and 1940's.


----------



## doctorjazz

So, I'm still not clear if tube rolling is a major improvement...
Must do something if some are making the effort and expense, but no one is posting impressions. Inquiring minds, and all that.


----------



## bazelio

Tube rolling should indeed help. And how about the fuse? Is it easy accessible? For the price of a good tube, replacing the stock $0.25 fuse with a silver fuse might really surprise you.


----------



## jamato8

I use the ceramic sand filled fuses as the fuse wire is kept from vibrating or moving by the sand. They also show an improvement and I have changed out the regular fuse to these for years.


----------



## bazelio

Not sure which ones are sand-filled.  I've seen beeswax filled but are cost prohibitive.  I have heard very good things about the Synergistic Research RED fuses though, and they come with a 30-day money back deal.


----------



## doctorjazz

Is this a plug and play mod, or does it require things like soldering (which generally means I wind up attaching the soldered object to my hand... )


----------



## Todd R

doctorjazz said:


> I have the 560, though it collecting dust since I got the HE-1000...gonna sell it one of these days. It is great, but I only have so much listening time, and HEK monopolizes it). It does indeed sound terrific with the ZOTL.




Could I bother you to plug in the 560's and see if the amp seems to have enough power on music with strong, deep bass?


----------



## xanlamin

Hey Zach, how would you compare against the 3 amps which you have now?


----------



## doctorjazz

todd r said:


> doctorjazz said:
> 
> 
> > I have the 560, though it collecting dust since I got the HE-1000...gonna sell it one of these days. It is great, but I only have so much listening time, and HEK monopolizes it). It does indeed sound terrific with the ZOTL.
> ...




OK, I disconnected the HEK (the ZOTL didn't want to let go), and I plugged in the 560. Since you particularly asked about bass, I put on Lorde's Royals and Daft Punk's Get Lucky, which seem to be the bass evaluation choices of many here (rest of the system for this listen: PC/JRiver/LH Labs 2g usb/Regen/Geek Out Special Edition/MicroZOTL 2). The long and short of it is, the ZOTL had no problem driving the 560 (as I remembered from before I got the HEK), and the bass production was quite spot on. The 560 is a bit less efficient than the HEK, and I had to turn the volume up just a bit, but it never exceeded 10-11 o'clock. For fun, I listened to Masada,The 50th Birthday Celebration, V7, track Sippur, to hear some acoustic bass, and again, bass reproduction, texture, impact (and the rest of the musical picture) was first rate. Was thinking of selling these...hard to do (even though HEK gets all the Over Ear time), they really sound great. So, for a reality check, went back to the HEK..
Yeah, they're better, obvious quickly, but the 560 are quite fine in their own right.


----------



## Todd R

Thanks Doc, you are awesome!


----------



## doctorjazz

todd r said:


> Thanks Doc, you are awesome!




Awww, shucks!


----------



## jamato8

I got some adapters for the 6N7 to 6SN7. The 6N7 draws .8 amps per heater but I checked and the micro can handle the increase from .6 amperes to .8. Otherwise the operating parameters of the 6N7 are close to the 6SN7 just a different pin out. Will report on the sound but is is very good. 
  
 ** update: Good at first but as the tube got into use after a few hours, the sound became heavy and the bass lacks definition. It could be a non optimal circuit for the 6N7 regarding operating points but IMO, not worth the investment. You are better off with 6F8G with an adapter or other good 6SN7 tubes. The 6N7G is a beautiful tube though. I got some RCA's that were sent to Europe and then a tube seller got them back here in a large lot in the US but they are sold out now. But they aren't good in the micro anyway so I was a guinea pig for this. lol


----------



## bazelio

Alright well it's crunch time here...  the (other) amp I've been waiting for has finally started taking orders for production units (100 of them).  See my signature if curious.  I intend to use this as a work setup with orthos - almost certainly the ETHER-C.  I guess folks are already driving the HE-1k with the MZ2, so what's the volume position needed to drive the HE-1K to a good listening volume?  E.g. are you guys past 12 o'clock?   I guess the ETHER-C is even lower impedance at 23Ohm.
  
 Ahhh...  decisions, decisions.


----------



## zach915m

xanlamin said:


> Hey Zach, how would you compare against the 3 amps which you have now?


 
  
  
 I haven't had a proper chance to really compare as things were very busy before the holidays and I am out of town until this sunday.  I ordered some tubes though and really look forward to a little rolling when I get back and comparing to my other stuff.
  
 What I did hear in my brief listens were plenty of power, great imaging and plenty of musicality.


----------



## jelt2359

bazelio said:


> Alright well it's crunch time here...  the (other) amp I've been waiting for has finally started taking orders for production units (100 of them).  See my signature if curious.  I intend to use this as a work setup with orthos - almost certainly the ETHER-C.  I guess folks are already driving the HE-1k with the MZ2, so what's the volume position needed to drive the HE-1K to a good listening volume?  E.g. are you guys past 12 o'clock?   I guess the ETHER-C is even lower impedance at 23Ohm.
> 
> Ahhh...  decisions, decisions.


 
 Might wanna look at the ECP Torpedo III at the same price range too, just putting it out there... Cinemag output transformers and all


----------



## bazelio

jamato8 said:


> I got some adapters for the 6N7 to 6SN7. The 6N7 draws .8 amps per heater but I checked and the micro can handle the increase from .6 amperes to .8. Otherwise the operating parameters of the 6N7 are close to the 6SN7 just a different pin out. Will report on the sound but is is very good.
> 
> ** update: Good at first but as the tube got into use after a few hours, the sound became heavy and the bass lacks definition. It could be a non optimal circuit for the 6N7 regarding operating points but IMO, not worth the investment. You are better off with 6F8G with an adapter or other good 6SN7 tubes. The 6N7G is a beautiful tube though. I got some RCA's that were sent to Europe and then a tube seller got them back here in a large lot in the US but they are sold out now. But they aren't good in the micro anyway so I was a guinea pig for this. lol




6N7, besides not being popular for audio, will not automatically work well in all circuits that were designed for the 6SN7. For one thing, as I recall, the plate resistance is much higher. 6SN7 has a lot of minor variants and available options already anyhow, though.


----------



## bazelio

jelt2359 said:


> Might wanna look at the ECP Torpedo III at the same price range too, just putting it out there... Cinemag output transformers and all




Yeah, I don't think the final BW design ended up incorporating Cinemags. But it was certainly designed to drive orthos nonetheless.


----------



## xanlamin

Has anybody tried running the HEK with the MicroZotl2? How does it sound?


----------



## Todd R

OK, just ordered mine


----------



## doctorjazz

xanlamin said:


> Has anybody tried running the HEK with the MicroZotl2? How does it sound?



In a word...Great!


----------



## willsw

bazelio said:


> I intend to use this as a work setup with orthos - almost certainly the ETHER-C.  I guess folks are already driving the HE-1k with the MZ2, so what's the volume position needed to drive the HE-1K to a good listening volume?  E.g. are you guys past 12 o'clock?   I guess the ETHER-C is even lower impedance at 23Ohm.
> 
> Ahhh...  decisions, decisions.


 
  
 At RMAF we were allowed to borrow an Ether-C for a few hours. I don't remember the volume position, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't past 12 o'clock. I do remember that they sounded amazing, excellent transparency. We were A/Bing with a pair of Audeze LCD-XCs and the clarity that the Ether-Cs (with the microZOTL2 I'd like to say, though I'd only heard them on that amp) brought was remarkable. 
  
 Anyway, everyone who tried them agreed that the Ether-C paired well with the microZOTL2.0.


----------



## richard51

willsw said:


> At RMAF we were allowed to borrow an Ether-C for a few hours. I don't remember the volume position, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't past 12 o'clock. I do remember that they sounded amazing, excellent transparency. We were A/Bing with a pair of Audeze LCD-XCs and the clarity that the Ether-Cs (with the microZOTL2 I'd like to say, though I'd only heard them on that amp) brought was remarkable.
> 
> Anyway, everyone who tried them agreed that the Ether-C paired well with the microZOTL2.0.


 

 what is the synergy of the microzotl with the Dharma d 1000 headphone, if someone already know it ?


----------



## bazelio

willsw said:


> At RMAF we were allowed to borrow an Ether-C for a few hours. I don't remember the volume position, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't past 12 o'clock. I do remember that they sounded amazing, excellent transparency. We were A/Bing with a pair of Audeze LCD-XCs and the clarity that the Ether-Cs (with the microZOTL2 I'd like to say, though I'd only heard them on that amp) brought was remarkable.
> 
> Anyway, everyone who tried them agreed that the Ether-C paired well with the microZOTL2.0.




Interesting! Did anyone try to see where (at what volume) it started to distort with the ETHER-C? This is good to hear, but somehow I remain skeptical. It looks like we are looking at 23 Ohm and 90db.

Thanks!


----------



## willsw

bazelio said:


> Interesting! Did anyone try to see where (at what volume) it started to distort with the ETHER-C? This is good to hear, but somehow I remain skeptical. It looks like we are looking at 23 Ohm and 90db.
> 
> Thanks!


 
  
 I didn't hear anyone mention distortion, though it was a while ago and a limited amount of listening. They are a very different headphone, but I run my JVC HA-SZ2000s off the MicroZOTL2.0, which are 16 Ohm and 108db. And these I turn up quite loud. I don't notice distortion, but I'll listen for it. 
  
 If you're still considering come March, you'll definitely be able to test out the combo at the big Can Jam in California if you haven't had a chance before.


----------



## jamato8

bazelio said:


> Alright well it's crunch time here...  the (other) amp I've been waiting for has finally started taking orders for production units (100 of them).  See my signature if curious.  I intend to use this as a work setup with orthos - almost certainly the ETHER-C.  I guess folks are already driving the HE-1k with the MZ2, so what's the volume position needed to drive the HE-1K to a good listening volume?  E.g. are you guys past 12 o'clock?   I guess the ETHER-C is even lower impedance at 23Ohm.
> 
> Ahhh...  decisions, decisions.


 

 It depends upon your input voltage where you will be on the dial. 12 or 1 o'clock is good as the less volume control in the signal path the better unless you run out of headroom, which I haven't with the HE1000 and the micro. 
  
 The sound of the HE1000 and the micro is excellent.


----------



## doctorjazz

I mostly run out of my PC, LH Labs Geek Out Special Edition/Regen/HEK, generally more than 10-11 O clock will be bad for the hearing, blast away (depends a bit on the track, of course).


----------



## jamato8

bazelio said:


> 6N7, besides not being popular for audio, will not automatically work well in all circuits that were designed for the 6SN7. For one thing, as I recall, the plate resistance is much higher. 6SN7 has a lot of minor variants and available options already anyhow, though.


 

 Yep, I didn't do a lot of research on the operating points, which I normally do. A little lazy about it this time. The combo sounded excellent for about an hour and then went too bassy and I think this was the circuit just being wrong for the tube. They are some beautiful RCA's though. A nice coke bottle shape and very well made. I have a few thousand tubes and these 6N7Gs I got are so very nice looking.


----------



## saidentary

xanlamin said:


> Has anybody tried running the HEK with the MicroZotl2? How does it sound?


 

 Yes, I have.  To my ears, the combination is absolutely _*magical*_.  I describe its attributes in my HE-1000 beta tester review, here.  Both jamato8 and doctorjazz feel essentially the same way.


----------



## doctorjazz

saidentary said:


> xanlamin said:
> 
> 
> > Has anybody tried running the HEK with the MicroZotl2? How does it sound?
> ...




2+!


----------



## zach915m

So I haven't really been able to compare all my amps because of holiday obligations and orders etc etc, but I did get back yesterday and did some rolling with the tubes I bought.
  
 I acquired:
  
 Brimar 12AT7
 Sylvania 12AT7WA
 Valvo 12 AT7
  
 ---------
 Sylvania Bad Boy 3 Hole 6SN7GT
 Tung Sol 6SN7 GTA (not sure what year but they are square plate)
  
 The combo I settled on is the two Sylvania tubes.  The Bad Boy Sylvania's which apparently are very close to the VT-231's from the 40's definitely have a firmer and more direct bass slam and cleaner sound than the Tung-Sol's.  Weirdly, for the 12AT7's the Brimar's are the brightest of the 3 with the Valvo's seemed a little smeared compaired to the other two.  Very happy with the Sylvania combo though, as I feel it improved the ZOTL that last 2% LOL! 
  
 The stock amp BTW is magnificient, it's just fun to roll in these old tubes and get the presentation that suits you best.


----------



## doctorjazz

zach915m said:


> So I haven't really been able to compare all my amps because of holiday obligations and orders etc etc, but I did get back yesterday and did some rolling with the tubes I bought.
> 
> I acquired:
> 
> ...




Thanks, I do appreciate the impressions, though, for those of us to whom the thought of tube rolling is not really that beg a draw on its own, the "last 2%" improvement doesn't seem like it would be worth the time or tube expense (unless this is something you enjoy doing, of course). 
That's really helpful!


----------



## yukihasi

zach915m said:


> So I haven't really been able to compare all my amps because of holiday obligations and orders etc etc, but I did get back yesterday and did some rolling with the tubes I bought.
> 
> I acquired:
> 
> ...


 
 Nice impression, I just got my Mullard ECC33's and put them into the mzotl2, I would say along with Mullard goldpin 6201s they improved the overall sound quality for somewhere around 10%...(total cost of tubes are around $400~), there are more micro details in the mid-high range, better bass quality, better clarity and better musicality overall. I will in the future compare it with a stock microzotl face to face, so that I can tell better about the improvements


----------



## zach915m

yukihasi said:


> Nice impression, I just got my Mullard ECC33's and put them into the mzotl2, I would say along with Mullard goldpin 6201s they improved the overall sound quality for somewhere around 10%...(total cost of tubes are around $400~), there are more micro details in the mid-high range, better bass quality, better clarity and better musicality overall. I will in the future compare it with a stock microzotl face to face, so that I can tell better about the improvements


 
  
 Dang those must be great tubes!  I love the Mullard 6922 I have in my Decware amp right now.  May have to try out some 6201's at some point, do you know what vintage yours are?
  
 I left the ZOTL with the new tubes on for the last day, it has definitely opened up a bit and loosened in all the right ways.  Whether this is the amp finally getting some burn in, the tubes warming up etc etc I don't know, but it certainly is sounding very liquid and precise right now.  I know the ZOTL runs the tubes a little cooler providing more life out of the tubes, does anyone know optimal warm up time for the ZOTL.


----------



## doctorjazz

Man, I see those ECC33s selling for $600-700 a pair on ebay, can almost buy another ZOTL...


----------



## jamato8

zach915m said:


> Dang those must be great tubes!  I love the Mullard 6922 I have in my Decware amp right now.  May have to try out some 6201's at some point, do you know what vintage yours are?
> 
> I left the ZOTL with the new tubes on for the last day, it has definitely opened up a bit and loosened in all the right ways.  Whether this is the amp finally getting some burn in, the tubes warming up etc etc I don't know, but it certainly is sounding very liquid and precise right now.  I know the ZOTL runs the tubes a little cooler providing more life out of the tubes, does anyone know optimal warm up time for the ZOTL.


 

 I find that around a half an hour. I also use the Mojo V power supply.


----------



## yukihasi

zach915m said:


> Dang those must be great tubes!  I love the Mullard 6922 I have in my Decware amp right now.  May have to try out some 6201's at some point, do you know what vintage yours are?
> 
> I left the ZOTL with the new tubes on for the last day, it has definitely opened up a bit and loosened in all the right ways.  Whether this is the amp finally getting some burn in, the tubes warming up etc etc I don't know, but it certainly is sounding very liquid and precise right now.  I know the ZOTL runs the tubes a little cooler providing more life out of the tubes, does anyone know optimal warm up time for the ZOTL.


 
 They are great indeed, so bad that my CDP is still under service at factory, can only listen to them with usb dac right now...the 6201s I've got are from upscaleaudio, says NOS but not sure about the exact vintage.


----------



## hrq12345

Got mine today, pairing with HD800. Simply great! Fantastic I would say. Made HD800 shine out its mids and lows. I never heard such beautiful mids on HD800 ever before!


----------



## doctorjazz

hrq12345 said:


> Got mine today, pairing with HD800. Simply great! Fantastic I would say. Made HD800 shine out its mids and lows. I never heard such beautiful mids on HD800 ever before!




Congrats, enjoy!


----------



## jamato8

hrq12345 said:


> Got mine today, pairing with HD800. Simply great! Fantastic I would say. Made HD800 shine out its mids and lows. I never heard such beautiful mids on HD800 ever before!


 

 Excellent. Wise choice as I don't think you are going to get a better single ended amp at any price! The micro is truly a One of A Kind.


----------



## czy6412

Any comparison between MicroZOTL and Audio-GD Master 9/11 when driving HE1000?


----------



## doctorjazz

OK, very basic question here, from a tube no-nothing. 
I had purchased a tube dac a while back (a prototype MOJO NOS DAC, long story), and at the time I bought some recommended tubes (recommended somewhere on Head Fi). I have a few sitting aroung in little boxes, but at this point, a few years later, I have no idea what they are. 2 are in a short box labeled 6h2n-B, the other 2 are in a longer box, labeled 6h6n-backwards N. The backward N ones say OTK-2 on them (2 in a diamond on its side), the smaller ones say OTK 6, and have other markings IX-66 and B519f. Googling these numbers doesn't tell me much, except for the 6h6n. I haven't ever used them, would these work in the ZOTL? (I see to larger and 2 smaller tubes in the ZOTL, have never taken off the top). Would they be an improvement? Is it worth bothering unless I go for tubes that are $300 each? 
Inquiring minds...
Thanks for any help/info/sources.


----------



## zach915m

doctorjazz said:


> OK, very basic question here, from a tube no-nothing.
> I had purchased a tube dac a while back (a prototype MOJO NOS DAC, long story), and at the time I bought some recommended tubes (recommended somewhere on Head Fi). I have a few sitting aroung in little boxes, but at this point, a few years later, I have no idea what they are. 2 are in a short box labeled 6h2n-B, the other 2 are in a longer box, labeled 6h6n-backwards N. The backward N ones say OTK-2 on them (2 in a diamond on its side), the smaller ones say OTK 6, and have other markings IX-66 and B519f. Googling these numbers doesn't tell me much, except for the 6h6n. I haven't ever used them, would these work in the ZOTL? (I see to larger and 2 smaller tubes in the ZOTL, have never taken off the top). Would they be an improvement? Is it worth bothering unless I go for tubes that are $300 each?
> Inquiring minds...
> Thanks for any help/info/sources.


 
  
 I don't believe those would work, the ZOTL's larger tubes are 6sn7 and variants (V-231 etc), see here:  http://www.head-fi.org/t/117677/the-reference-6sn7-thread
  
 The smaller tubes are 12AT7's, I believe the ones you have may or may not be variants of the 6922/e88cc etc tubes.  I'm not 100% sure as I'm not a tube expert.  Fortunately 12AT7's seem to be relatively inexpensive.


----------



## doctorjazz

zach915m said:


> doctorjazz said:
> 
> 
> > OK, very basic question here, from a tube no-nothing.
> ...




Thanks-so, are there 12AT7s that are better sounding than the ones already included in the ZOTL (all 4 are 12AT7?)? Or is it just trial and error? I see @jamato8 mentioned the Mullard 6922 and some other tubes, any thoughts? I guess ebay is a place to track these down, or for sale on Head Fi...

Listening to this through the ZOTL right now, lovely...


----------



## zach915m

doctorjazz said:


> Thanks-so, are there 12AT7s that are better sounding than the ones already included in the ZOTL (all 4 are 12AT7?)? Or is it just trial and error?


 
  
 The ZOTL needs 2 x 6sn7 variants and 2 x 12AT7 variants.


----------



## doctorjazz

OK, another very basic question...can I just do the, say, 12AT7, then later play with the 6sn7, or do you do the whole shebang at once? (I'm sure it's OK to split it up, but still have to ask...)


----------



## zach915m

doctorjazz said:


> OK, another very basic question...can I just do the, say, 12AT7, then later play with the 6sn7, or do you do the whole shebang at once? (I'm sure it's OK to split it up, but still have to ask...)


 

  Yeah definitely, actually probably better to do one at a time so you can really see what each tube set does. I got my 5 sets of tubes in, two were 6sn7's (the big ones) and three were 12AT7's (the smaller tubes in the ZOTL) and I had to sit there for over an hour swapping in and out and waiting 5 minutes in between swaps per the manual to test out each variation and the changes both singularly with each set of tubes and then in combinations. It was brain melting!


----------



## zach915m

These are the 12AT7's I ended sticking with.  I was able to get them for cheaper on ebay but same tubes:  http://www.ebay.com/itm/Matched-Pair-JHS-Sylvania-12AT7-WA-3-Mica-Vacuum-Tubes-Super-Strong-6550-6390-/181966552569?hash=item2a5e0d3df9:g:KR0AAOSwDNdVgz-8


----------



## doctorjazz

Thanks again, Zach, should be able to get started.


----------



## bazelio

Recommend also starting with a matched pair of RCA VT-231 and going from there.  That'll be nowhere near $300.  It should be half that, or less.  I see them under $100 a pair on Ebay.  They should provide improved clarity and detail, and in general be transparent and uncolored.


----------



## doctorjazz

Which tube is the VT-231?


----------



## zach915m

doctorjazz said:


> Which tube is the VT-231?


 

 It's the military version of the 6sn7.  I agree it would be a good place to start, I ended up getting a Sylvania Bad-Boy 3 hole which apparently was made with the same tooling as the Ken-Rad 231's and are a touch cheaper, both great choices.


----------



## bazelio

3-hole Bad Boys are what I'd get too, but I'd assume they are quite a bit more expensive than the RCAs, and I'm not sure if the price/performance value is there or not.  
  
 BTW, did you ever try the Valvo 6201?  I'd be very curious how they compare.


----------



## hrq12345

I'm actually wondering if I can put the tubes for Schiit lyr into ZOTL2. Seems like the small ones would fit. Anyone knows this please check with me. Thanks!


----------



## yukihasi

hrq12345 said:


> I'm actually wondering if I can put the tubes for Schiit lyr into ZOTL2. Seems like the small ones would fit. Anyone knows this please check with me. Thanks!


 

 If they are not 12at7 variants then no. Not just about fitting, different type of tubes got different specs and requirements that they won't work in a circuit that is not designed for them.


----------



## branislav

Anybody out there compared this amp to the giants like HP4, Alo Studio, or Teton amplifier? I gather Microzotl is a damn good amplifier but can it be mentioned in the same league as these other amplifiers or it's a just a good amplifier in its price range like Decware and others?


----------



## yukihasi

branislav said:


> Anybody out there compared this amp to the giants like HP4, Alo Studio, or Teton amplifier? I gather Microzotl is a damn good amplifier but can it be mentioned in the same league as these other amplifiers or it's a just a good amplifier in its price range like Decware and others?


 

 Ear HP4? I don't think it deserve it's price at all...
  
 But if you are asking generally where should you put microzotl2.0. Well, conservatively speaking you won't find anything under $3000 to better it. Seriously, I mean, name another amp that can drive HD800, th900, HE1000, LCDs, T1 even K1000  to a decent level like a microzotl2.0 will do. Plus, it sounds great as pre-amp, generally, not just for it's price range, and there are people buying it solely for it's pre-amp feature.


----------



## bazelio

yukihasi said:


> branislav said:
> 
> 
> > Anybody out there compared this amp to the giants like HP4, Alo Studio, or Teton amplifier? I gather Microzotl is a damn good amplifier but can it be mentioned in the same league as these other amplifiers or it's a just a good amplifier in its price range like Decware and others?
> ...


 
  
  
 We will see.  I'll be getting the Zotl2 in about a month.  The intent is to make it my work amp which will drive a pair of ETHER-C phones.  So I've not ordered the Zotl yet because the phones have a 3 week lead time, and I want to make sure I have the full two week trial period with the Zotl and the ETHER-C's in order to decide if it's a keeper.
  
 Also, though, for fun...  I'll be comparing the Zotl2 to my Zana Deux Super.  So... we will see.  As a result of this thread, expectations are SKY high.


----------



## branislav

Keep us posted...


----------



## doctorjazz

Haven't heard the Zana, also curious about your impressions.


----------



## jelt2359

yukihasi said:


> Ear HP4? I don't think it deserve it's price at all...
> 
> But if you are asking generally where should you put microzotl2.0. Well, conservatively speaking you won't find anything under $3000 to better it. Seriously, I mean, name another amp that can drive HD800, th900, HE1000, LCDs, T1 even K1000  to a decent level like a microzotl2.0 will do. Plus, it sounds great as pre-amp, generally, not just for it's price range, and there are people buying it solely for it's pre-amp feature.


 
 Plenty of solid state amps out there that can do this, Auralic Taurus for example. If you're talking tube amps, then you're generally going into transformer territory (OTL generally doesn't match, impedance wise, with planars), which does tend to be expensive. The real question is, how does this topology compare to transformer-coupled (for planars/ dynamics) vs 'traditional' OTL (for dynamics only)?
  
 The ZDS is a good comparison for OTL, and I think there are also efforts underway to compare them with other (transformer-coupled) Eddie Current amps.


----------



## doctorjazz

I'll be happy to do any comparisons, have the ZOTL, now If someone will send me a few of the EC amps...


----------



## bazelio

jelt2359 said:


> yukihasi said:
> 
> 
> > Ear HP4? I don't think it deserve it's price at all...
> ...


 
  
  
 Exactly.  The ZDS is a comparison of like kind to a certain degree.  I'd not be terribly interested in other random compares.  But OTL interests me and the Zotl2 has been talked up through the roof...  so I'll have a listen for myself.  Mainly though, I'm so in love with the ZDS that I just want to have something at work with some semblance of its magic, because right now it's utterly painful to listen to music at work after being so spoiled at home!!


----------



## yukihasi

jelt2359 said:


> Plenty of solid state amps out there that can do this, Auralic Taurus for example. If you're talking tube amps, then you're generally going into transformer territory (OTL generally doesn't match, impedance wise, with planars), which does tend to be expensive. The real question is, how does this topology compare to transformer-coupled (for planars/ dynamics) vs 'traditional' OTL (for dynamics only)?
> 
> The ZDS is a good comparison for OTL, and I think there are also efforts underway to compare them with other (transformer-coupled) Eddie Current amps.


 
 The unique design of mzotl2 has it's advantage, and there is nothing wrong about it. I have friends compared it with ECBA on driving HD800.


----------



## jelt2359

yukihasi said:


> The unique design of mzotl2 has it's advantage, and there is nothing wrong about it. I have friends compared it with ECBA on driving HD800.




Didn't say there's anything wrong. Would just love to hear more since this is quite a different approach. Actually looking at its output impedance, I don't know, it looks much closer to being a transformer amp than an OTL. I guess we'll see. How did it stack up against the ECBA?


----------



## saidentary

yukihasi said:


> The unique design of mzotl2 has it's advantage, and there is nothing wrong about it. I have friends compared it with ECBA on driving HD800.


 

 I've never heard the Eddie Current Balancing Act (ECBA), so correct me if I'm wrong about any of the following beliefs I have:
  
 1) The ECBA is generally regarded as being among the very finest headphone amplifiers on the planet, _*bar none *(i.e., irrespective of price)_.  Isn't that correct?
 2) In spite of its ~4K price, it's still considered a good (or even great, perhaps) *value*, because it outperforms other amplifiers that are significantly more expensive.  Isn't that also correct?
  
 If those two things are correct, then how does the MicroZOTL 2 compare?  Is it close? If so, how close?  On the face of it, as much as I love my MicroZOTL 2, it's tough for me to imagine it being equal to or even better than the legendary ECBA, which is a gem I've never even had the privilege of hearing.


----------



## doctorjazz

Not clear to me, either, if the above quote means the ZOTL was equal to the ECBA. Of course, unless someone had heard them both it is all just speculation.


----------



## jelt2359

saidentary said:


> I've never heard the Eddie Current Balancing Act (ECBA), so correct me if I'm wrong about any of the following beliefs I have:
> 
> 1) The ECBA is generally regarded as being among the very finest headphone amplifiers on the planet, _*bar none *(i.e., irrespective of price)_.  Isn't that correct?
> 2) In spite of its ~4K price, it's still considered a good (or even great, perhaps) *value*, because it outperforms other amplifiers that are significantly more expensive.  Isn't that also correct?
> ...


 
 The two are extremely different. The ECBA is a transformer-coupled amp that uses big Single-End Triodes tubes (the tubes alone will run you hundreds of dollars). It also has a special high-freq AC heater for these triotes that apparently give it a huge sense of space. It weights 32lbs. The MicroZOTL 2 weights 5lbs. If that itself doesn't give you an indication of how different they are, I don't know what will 
  
 Most ECBAs are built with 300B tubes, for a more 'tubey', 'lusher' sound. Some like that on the HD800 to give it more warmth and musicality; others prefer a leaner, details-galore sound like Eddie Current's own EC-445. The HD800 is exceptionally amp-picky, and can really show the difference in amps. You have to be clear if you're evaluating on technical detail, lushness, soundstaging, or just pure sonic preference. If you're someone who likes lush, for example, stick to a tubey amp- even better, find a different headphone because the HD800 will never be the final word in lushness.
  
 As for the ECBA's standing, yes, it's one of the best, although Eddie Current today sells the Studio (long waiting list) for $7K. As Eddie Current themselves will tell you, nonetheless prefer the Zana Deux Super (~$2.4K, also OTL) over the $7K amp because it's lusher and more musical as opposed to the last word in technical retrieval and imaging/ soundstaging.
  
 Finally, "value" is very subjective. Are you paying for the cost of the transformers? The amp designer's brand name? The topology? The fact that the amp you want almost never turns up used? FWIW, I've never seen a good amp that its fans don't claim to have great "_value_". At the end of the day I think there are good amps and there are bad amps, and compared to the bad amps the good amps will almost always have great value. I also think that synergy matters a lot. Pick your headphones first, then worry about the amp and dac later.


----------



## jamato8

If the micro where the type to use transformers, obviously it would not be a David Berning amp, with good output transformers, the cost would be substantially more but possible the frequency response not as good as the micro. I will say that transformer building is an art. I have some from Audio Note UK that are around 1000 each and for my dac that I built, that also uses interstage transformers from AN and a transformer for the digital input signal, they perform extremely well but that is Audio Note. I have heard plenty of transformer based amp that just don't have it. That is where the micro does so well and to me, you get the true linear function of the tube and the purity of sound.


----------



## yukihasi

The result of the comparison doesn't tells much, one of them thought ECBA is better while the other thought otherwise, driving HD800. What can be said is that HD800 on mzotl2 is very impressive, the mid range of 800 really got "filled up" in a good way that you won't always find on many other more expensive amps. Almost everyone who heard 800 on mzotl agreed on this, and there was one 800 user said the same a page back I believe.


----------



## jelt2359

yukihasi said:


> The result of the comparison doesn't tells much, one of them thought ECBA is better while the other thought otherwise, driving HD800. What can be said is that HD800 on mzotl2 is very impressive, the mid range of 800 really got "filled up" in a good way that you won't always find on many other more expensive amps. Almost everyone who heard 800 on mzotl agreed on this, and there was one 800 user said the same a page back I believe.




Thanks for the info. As you get more expensive in tube amps (solid state, too, actually), neutrality seems to generally be the goal- as opposed to a "warm" or "tubey" sound that tries to fill up the midrange. I can certainly see how people may want that with their hd800, but then the ZDS is a much more opt comparison really if that's their preference. The Woo amps and the DNA Stratus are other good options that go for this type of sound. If you're okay with solid state, consider the EC Black Widow as well. All of these are probably available cheaper than the ECBA, but the MicroZOTL 2 is still cheaper than them all.


----------



## saidentary

yukihasi said:


> The result of the comparison doesn't tells much, one of them thought ECBA is better while the other thought otherwise, driving HD800. What can be said is that HD800 on mzotl2 is very impressive, the mid range of 800 really got "filled up" in a good way that you won't always find on many other more expensive amps. Almost everyone who heard 800 on mzotl agreed on this, and there was one 800 user said the same a page back I believe.


 

 Fair enough.  The fact that the MicroZOTL 2 didn't get smoked by the ECBA (at least in the minds of these few listeners) is still interesting, to me anyway....


----------



## bazelio

Ah this thread.  Why don't we compare apples and tangelos while we're at it?  As one poster has said, the ECBA is something completely different.  The ZOTL doesn't have "color" or "romance" about it, like most tube amps.  The ECBA on the other hand is a laid back tubey sound, and while the DHT tonality is technically less accurate some people absolutely love that "attractive distortion" it imparts.  But if you like natural, clean, uncolored sound, the microZOTL2 should fit the bill.  I just expect it'll be limited, _relatively speaking_, in terms of absolute resolution, micro-detail, micro-dynamics, air, space, depth, etc.  As for the ZDS, I expect it's going to be slightly warmer and more euphonic than the MZ2, do those types of things a bit better, and as one of if not the best OTL amp out there, probably be a tad quieter.  But, we will see.  The true end game amp to me, I think, is the upcoming Studio Jr which should essentially offer the best of both the OTL and Hybrid amp worlds....  he says as his wallet cringes.


----------



## doctorjazz

Can't comment on the EC amps, haven't gotten to hear them. But, colored mids is not how I'd describe the ZOTL. In fact, the 3 other dedicated amps I've had in house to compare, the LC, RSA HR-2, and the tour Aerist amp, all solid state (the Aerist lists around $2k, the other 2 less expensive than the ZOTL), all SS, all had more of what's described as "tube" sound...warm, a bit thick, less open, less "air" than the ZOTL. I'm not sure what's being described in the above 800/ZOTL experience, but it doesn't jive with what I hear with the stock ZOTL and HEK. Maybe the other changes in the chain have to do with it.


----------



## yukihasi

First thing first, mzotl is not tubey at all. A little warm and highly transparent is how I will describe it. What I said about mids of HD800 on mzotl is not filled with "thickness/forwardness" but a detailed texture which is one of the strength of mzotl.


----------



## doctorjazz

I'd agree with that, not even sure I'd characterize it as "warm", at least to the other amps I've had in house to compare it to, but I haven't heard the high priced gear out there.


----------



## bazelio

Without even having heard the MZ2 yet, I'm almost certain it is *not* warm.  And as I said in my last post...  the MZ2 does *not* add "color" or "romance" like most tube amps.


----------



## zach915m

bazelio said:


> Without even having heard the MZ2 yet, I'm almost certain it is *not* warm.  And as I said in my last post...  the MZ2 does *not* add "color" or "romance" like most tube amps.


 
  
 Yeah - even my Decware Taboo MK III sounds a little warmer/tubier, and I don't consider the Decware a warm sounding tube amp, at least with most tubes.
 That's not to say the ZOTL isn't smooth and musical, because it is very much so.


----------



## bazelio

doctorjazz said:


> Can't comment on the EC amps, haven't gotten to hear them. But, colored mids is not how I'd describe the ZOTL. In fact, the 3 other dedicated amps I've had in house to compare, the LC, RSA HR-2, and the tour Aerist amp, all solid state (the Aerist lists around $2k, the other 2 less expensive than the ZOTL), all SS, all had more of what's described as "tube" sound...warm, a bit thick, less open, less "air" than the ZOTL. I'm not sure what's being described in the above 800/ZOTL experience, but it doesn't jive with what I hear with the stock ZOTL and HEK. Maybe the other changes in the chain have to do with it.


 
  
 Yeah, those others probably should not be expected to have the same staging as tube amps.  I've heard the LC also, and thought it was a very solid performer for the price.  There was definitely a tube-like warmth there, but it was paired with the DAC-19 when I was listening, which may have added to that effect.


----------



## saidentary

bazelio said:


> Ah this thread.  Why don't we compare apples and tangelos while we're at it?  As one poster has said, the ECBA is something completely different.  The ZOTL doesn't have "color" or "romance" about it, like most tube amps.  The ECBA on the other hand is a laid back tubey sound, and while the DHT tonality is technically less accurate some people absolutely love that "attractive distortion" it imparts.  But if you like natural, clean, uncolored sound, the microZOTL2 should fit the bill.  I just expect it'll be limited, _relatively speaking_, in terms of absolute resolution, micro-detail, micro-dynamics, air, space, depth, etc.  As for the ZDS, I expect it's going to be slightly warmer and more euphonic than the MZ2, do those types of things a bit better, and as one of if not the best OTL amp out there, probably be a tad quieter.  But, we will see.  The true end game amp to me, I think, is the upcoming Studio Jr which should essentially offer the best of both the OTL and Hybrid amp worlds....  he says as his wallet cringes.


 
 From the content of your posts it's obvious that you've thought this through exceptionally well.  Everything you've said on this thread (that I can remember without being OCD and looking back over your posts) makes sense to me.  Your predictions are measured and reasonable-sounding.  So....., it will be very, very, VERY interesting (for me at least) to hear your thoughts after you get to listen to both of these great amplifiers and compare and contrast their attributes.  Even if you don't pick a clear "winner" it will still be fascinating to read about your sonic impressions.  The other question would be whether your still feel a need--or even any desire--to upgrade any further.  Whatever you do, though, please make sure to post what you think after you've had a chance to listen to them both.  As for the quietness, the MZ 2 is pretty quiet.  I haven't noticed any noise at all, although I haven't strained to listen for it either, so maybe it's there.


----------



## jamato8

The micro is only as noisy as the tube is and if your tubes are quiet, so is the micro. And IMO, it does resolve the micro detail to the highest standard without accentuating it to an unnatural level, which some amps do and there fore people think the amp is just more resolving. I haven't heard the micro do anything wrong, and that is exceptional, IMO as I have heard few amps that can do what the micro can do on a consistent basis.


----------



## bazelio

Noise or grain is inherent to OTL amps.  How distracting it is will depend on the tubes, the sensitivity of the attached headphones, etc.
  
 Sometimes it's hard to critique micro-detail and other attributes without doing so comparatively.


----------



## XERO1




----------



## jamato8

bazelio said:


> Noise or grain is inherent to OTL amps.  How distracting it is will depend on the tubes, the sensitivity of the attached headphones, etc.
> 
> Sometimes it's hard to critique micro-detail and other attributes without doing so comparatively.


 

 The micro handles all loads well, an OTL is much more limited and can skew the frequency due to load variability.


----------



## doctorjazz

I think the confusion here is the OTL part of the ZOTL name...it's NOT your father's OTL...


----------



## yukihasi

doctorjazz said:


> I think the confusion here is the OTL party of the ZOTL name...it's NOT your father's OTL...


 
 Exactly, for those who are interested can look up the patent for ZOTL circuit. Although this is not new history wise, it was only used in two headphone amps apparently, mzotl and mzotl2. So it is relatively new to this generation with growing headphone audiophile market. 
 I would really love to see the technology go further, mzotl2 achieved this level of sound quality with relatively low cost on the parts, now imagine an further improved circuit with premium components(I know, there are debates about using pricey parts and chassis among amp designer, but to me anything is good as long as it improves the sound)...


----------



## doctorjazz

I believe David Berning still manufactures ZOTL amps, don't know for sure, but I'd guess his are more premium build (and price...)


----------



## yukihasi

doctorjazz said:


> I believe David Berning still manufactures ZOTL amps, don't know for sure, but I'd guess his are more premium build (and price...)


 
 Yeah, I meant headphone amps specifically. Though the ZOTL pre-one preamp has a headphone jack on it.


----------



## bazelio

doctorjazz said:


> I think the confusion here is the OTL part of the ZOTL name...it's NOT your father's OTL...


 
  
  
 It seems to manage impedance matching in a unique way.  I'm not sure its astronomically high 1% total harmonic distortion is a byproduct of that scheme, or if there's another reason for that...  But either way, I'm interested to find out what my ears think at the end of the day.


----------



## nephilim

Hi there,
  
 I have been lurking here for a few months and recently gave the ZOTL a try - at least for a few days of testing. The unit I borrowed came with a very basic power supply and had just a few hours on the clock so it probably had not reached its full glory but my impressions were very, very positive. It was fascinating how clear, uncoloured and transparent it treats music. Background is pitch-black. However, I have just two small complaints: listening to some recordings via my HD800 sibilants tend to be a bit harsh. On the contrary, on other recordings I noticed that the opposite end (sub-bass, e.g., organs) was almost missing. Don't get me wrong, as soon as the very low frequencies are left behind, it has enough weight & power. I would assume that some tube rolling will change things towards my preferences - where would you recommend to start? With the 6SN7 or 12AT7? Or would a better power supply (e.g., Sbooster) help?


----------



## doctorjazz

Just ordered 2 pairs of 6sn7's, I'll post impressions when I get them.


----------



## Angaria

Using a transcendent mini-beast OTL with the HE1K and it sounds great.  Therefore, I'm curious about the zOTL.  If someone in Chicago has one we could do a comparison.


----------



## bazelio

nephilim said:


> Hi there,
> 
> I have been lurking here for a few months and recently gave the ZOTL a try - at least for a few days of testing. The unit I borrowed came with a very basic power supply and had just a few hours on the clock so it probably had not reached its full glory but my impressions were very, very positive. It was fascinating how clear, uncoloured and transparent it treats music. Background is pitch-black. However, I have just two small complaints: listening to some recordings via my HD800 sibilants tend to be a bit harsh. On the contrary, on other recordings I noticed that the opposite end (sub-bass, e.g., organs) was almost missing. Don't get me wrong, as soon as the very low frequencies are left behind, it has enough weight & power. I would assume that some tube rolling will change things towards my preferences - where would you recommend to start? With the 6SN7 or 12AT7? Or would a better power supply (e.g., Sbooster) help?


 
  
 I think power supply might be the first place to start, actually, but it's going to depend on how much you want to spend.  The one I have in mind is a $1000 unit and therefore effectively doubles the cost of the ZOTL, however I'm fairly certainly will also improve it rather significantly.


----------



## bazelio

doctorjazz said:


> Just ordered 2 pairs of 6sn7's, I'll post impressions when I get them.


 
  
 Which ones?


----------



## doctorjazz

Not really expensive ones, but they were recommended: 

RCA 6SN7GT 

Hytron 6SN7GT 

My first tube rolling adventure, will compare...



bazelio said:


> doctorjazz said:
> 
> 
> > Just ordered 2 pairs of 6sn7's, I'll post impressions when I get them.
> ...


----------



## bazelio

I predict the RCA will be better.  Did you get the grey glass version?


----------



## doctorjazz

I do believe it is the grey glass version.


----------



## jamato8

Hytron can be good also. Are they NOS?


----------



## jelt2359

I still have my money on the Hytron 5692 brown base that you'll place an order for next week


----------



## doctorjazz

jamato8 said:


> Hytron can be good also. Are they NOS?




They are NOS, hopefully get to try them out in the next few days.


----------



## Angaria

After trying numerous NOS and new production 6sn7's as preamp tubes in an integrated, I'd say the difference between the several best options was small, and ultimately I found the Sophia electric to be the most resolving.  Differences were also smaller than when rolling power tubes, though in this case they play that role, so swapping may have a larger effect here.


----------



## bazelio

Some people definitely like the Sophia Electric.  I've always been skeptical of that 6SL7 and 6SN7
 because you end up seeing it branded so many different times...  It's all over Ebay under different
 labels.  So I never really know what to think, or what you're going to get. 
  
 By the way, I wasn't quite sure what you were saying here.  Care to explain a little further:
  


> Differences were also smaller than when rolling power tubes, though in this case they play that role, so swapping may have a larger effect here.


----------



## willsw

bazelio said:


> Some people definitely like the Sophia Electric.  I've always been skeptical of that 6SL7 and 6SN7
> because you end up seeing it branded so many different times...  It's all over Ebay under different
> labels.  So I never really know what to think, or what you're going to get.
> 
> By the way, I wasn't quite sure what you were saying here.  Care to explain a little further:


 
  
 I believe he's saying that when he was rolling 6SN7s, they were in the preamp of an integrated amp and thus not the power tubes of that amp - the size of which he does not specify. When he would change the larger tubes, he would hear a larger difference than when changing the 6SN7s. In the MicroZOTL, the 6SN7s are the largest tube, so probably swapping those will give you a larger change in sound than when he was swapping the same tube in a different amp.


----------



## doctorjazz

So, I ordered 2 sets of tubes, then heard the Hytron 5692 brown base were available from another dealer (who was slow to get back to me). Not inexpensive, though, $188/pair. Any thoughts? Figure I'll try what I already ordered (and shipped today) first...does anyone think these will kill the ones I have coming?
Just curious...


----------



## Angaria

Indeed that is what I meant - thanks for clarifying.  Agree sophia ele can seem a little sketchy, but to my ear they were significantly better than the competition - small effect size though.


----------



## bazelio

doctorjazz said:


> So, I ordered 2 sets of tubes, then heard the Hytron 5692 brown base were available from another dealer (who was slow to get back to me). Not inexpensive, though, $188/pair. Any thoughts? Figure I'll try what I already ordered (and shipped today) first...does anyone think these will kill the ones I have coming?
> Just curious...


 
  
  
 Absolutely try what you bought....  and I'll go out on a limb and express my own doubt that Hytron 5692s are the best choice for audio.


----------



## doctorjazz

OK, another case of Audiophilia Nervosa booted in the bud (well, not really, but on hold for a bit).


----------



## bazelio

I expect both of what you bought to be better than what came in the ZOTL.  The question from there is how much time and money you want to spend to try tweaking things further.  You could be completely satisfied with the upgrade as is.


----------



## doctorjazz

Sounds good (at least, we'll see if it sounds good). I should receive them in the next few days for my first tube rolling. Will just have Rio figure out taking the top off and which tubes I'm replacing (I'm very handy, as you can probably tell  )


----------



## jamato8

The 5692 actually has lower operating points, which is one reason it was rated for 10,000 hours in normal use. I don't think it will like the plate voltage it will get in the micro. Personally I don't like the 5692. I have a number in NOS. I do like the 5691, the 6SL7 variant but it doesn't work in the micro as it is a different tube. :^)


----------



## svmusa

doctorjazz said:


> So, I ordered 2 sets of tubes, then heard the Hytron 5692 brown base were available from another dealer (who was slow to get back to me). Not inexpensive, though, $188/pair. Any thoughts? Figure I'll try what I already ordered (and shipped today) first...does anyone think these will kill the ones I have coming?
> Just curious...


 
 I am using Sylvania 5692 in mine, quite a bit of improvement in bass and overall imaging from stock tubes.


----------



## nephilim

I was wondering how flexible the ZOTL is in terms of tube rolling. In my current amp, I can replace the 6SN7 drivers with triode-strapped pentodes such as the C3g and the result is brilliant. I asked Mark but for reasons that are easy to understand he could not give a definite statement apart from the recommendation to stick with 6SN7 variants. What do you guys think about this? Would a triode-strapped C3g work in the ZOTL or could it do any harm?


----------



## adamaley

Any of you gentlemen looking to be at the upcoming Chicago meet on February 6th. I'd love to bring my HE1000 along to take a listen on the MicroZOTL2. I plan on using it as a tide me over amp while I wait for delivery of either a Stratus or an EC Studio Jr. Now, once in house, if it knocks the socks off of me, I may have to go for the power supply upgrade and not even bother with the 'big boys'.


----------



## doctorjazz

Got my tubes, is there a diagram somewhere ("for dummies") of which tubes are which?


----------



## bazelio

adamaley said:


> Any of you gentlemen looking to be at the upcoming Chicago meet on February 6th. I'd love to bring my HE1000 along to take a listen on the MicroZOTL2. I plan on using it as a tide me over amp while I wait for delivery of either a Stratus or an EC Studio Jr. Now, once in house, if it knocks the socks off of me, I may have to go for the power supply upgrade and not even bother with the 'big boys'.


 
  
  
 If you get the Studio Jr., I will fly to Chicago with my Micro ZOTL2 to compare.  I have family there anyhow.    Though I won't be doing this in February.  I stay out of the midwest until at least late April.  
  
 I do think the MZ2 with Joule v5.0 power supply is a real contender... though the Studio Jr., IMO, is still the endgame amp.


----------



## svmusa

doctorjazz said:


> Got my tubes, is there a diagram somewhere ("for dummies") of which tubes are which?


 
 The two large tubes on the extreme right and left are 6SN7, the small 2 tubes adjacent to these 2 are 12AT7. The pins also gives way for these 2 types, 6SN7 have bigger pins and 12A7 are smaller.
  
 I would also recommend some reading around on how to wiggle them out of sockets and install....they are lodged in tight but once you get hang of replacing them it should be easy to roll there on.


----------



## adamaley

I was planning on purchasing the the MZOTL2 prior to receiving the Studio Jr or the Stratus. They both have waits of ~7 months and ~11 months respectively, and I am still reluctant to order them without hearing them in spite of their descriptions. Even though my Bottlehead S.E.X does suitably well with the HE1000, after almost a week with the combo, I am itching to upgrade in order to make my wait more bearable. I am hoping to attend a meet where these coveted amps will be present. In the meantime the MZOTL2 sounds like the ticket.


----------



## zach915m

adamaley said:


> Any of you gentlemen looking to be at the upcoming Chicago meet on February 6th. I'd love to bring my HE1000 along to take a listen on the MicroZOTL2. I plan on using it as a tide me over amp while I wait for delivery of either a Stratus or an EC Studio Jr. Now, once in house, if it knocks the socks off of me, I may have to go for the power supply upgrade and not even bother with the 'big boys'.


 

 I'll bring my ZOTL to the Chicago meet.


----------



## adamaley

zach915m said:


> I'll bring my ZOTL to the Chicago meet.


 
 That's great to know. Thanks - Please anticipate me hogging it some. Do you by any chance have the power supply upgrade?


----------



## doctorjazz

adamaley said:


> zach915m said:
> 
> 
> > I'll bring my ZOTL to the Chicago meet.
> ...




(love the Blue Note Obama!
I'll have the ZOTL and HEK at the Spring NY area meet, bit of a commute, but...)


----------



## adamaley

Thanks. Hopefully, I get to hear it at the Chicago meet. If not, I may have to make it to the Big Apple.


----------



## Stage

Hi, I currently use Resonessence Concero HP DAC/AMP. It does not have RCA out, so I plan to use 1/4" to RCA cable and connect it to Microzotl. However I have a concern here, if I keep the volume on my Concero HP at -5db the output will be 1.98 vrms, would it be too high for the Micro ? Im asking this because when the output of Micro is only 1 watt how can I provide 2 watts as input into the micro. Sorry if its a very basic question but I don't know much technically so seeking your advice.
  
 Also has anyone tried LCD-X with Micro ? any impressions will be very helpful as I currently own a LCD-X
  
 Thanks in advance


----------



## doctorjazz

svmusa said:


> doctorjazz said:
> 
> 
> > Got my tubes, is there a diagram somewhere ("for dummies") of which tubes are which?
> ...




You made me nervous now, have to find a source to learn about changing the tubes. I thought you pull the old ones out and pop the new ones in. Never that simple, huh?


----------



## bazelio

doctorjazz said:


> svmusa said:
> 
> 
> > doctorjazz said:
> ...


 
  
 They can be a bit tight at times (tubes in general - not necessarily the MZ2's tubes).  But, yes, it's simple.  Lightly wiggle back and forth while pulling the tube up and out of the socket.  It'll gradually work its way out.
  
 So get to it and report back, already!!!!!


----------



## doctorjazz

Arright, Arright, hold on to yer keister! Busy 2 days of work, along with root canal and cap, probably get to it on the weekend, will definitely report back...and thanks.


----------



## zach915m

adamaley said:


> That's great to know. Thanks - Please anticipate me hogging it some. Do you by any chance have the power supply upgrade?


 

 Don't have the PSU upgrade.  I'll get one when/if Urban HiFi comes out with one.
  
 And no problem!  Hog away, I will also have it in Austin this weekend, Philly the weekend after and then ofcourse at the Chicago Head Fi meet for the 6th.  Looking forward to getting more ears on the ZOTL.


----------



## yukihasi

So I brought my mzotl2 with Mullard tubes to my friend's and compared it with his stock tube one, tested headphones are K1000,HE1000 and HD540 Gold. Comparison amps are Schiit Rag, Pass hpa-1. Source is Soulution 540 SACD player.
  
 The impressions are still the same,
 Improvements on musicality, little bit more bass amount and better quality, better high extension and more micro details. Stock sounds flatter, while Mullard sounds more emotional, you can really feel it when listening to Jazz, the trumpet kicks up the notch at the right place with Mullard tubes. We agreed on that the total improvements is over 10% . 
  
 Hopefully I will get my Cary back next week and do some more tube rolling on the Sylvania 6F8Gs.


----------



## bazelio

zach915m said:


> adamaley said:
> 
> 
> > That's great to know. Thanks - Please anticipate me hogging it some. Do you by any chance have the power supply upgrade?
> ...


 
  
 I suggest looking at the Mojo Audio linear power supplies.  They're good.  Very good.  The less fancy one is even a couple hundred bucks off right now due to some face plate blemish or some such silliness.


----------



## bazelio

doctorjazz said:


> Arright, Arright, hold on to yer keister! Busy 2 days of work, along with root canal and cap, probably get to it on the weekend, will definitely report back...and thanks.


 
  
  
 Root canal, root shmanal.  We're talking about NOS tubes here!


----------



## hrq12345

yukihasi said:


> So I brought my mzotl2 with Mullard tubes to my friend's and compared it with his stock tube one, tested headphones are K1000,HE1000 and HD540 Gold. Comparison amps are Schiit Rag, Pass hpa-1. Source is Soulution 540 SACD player.
> 
> The impressions are still the same,
> Improvements on musicality, little bit more bass amount and better quality, better high extension and more micro details. Stock sounds flatter, while Mullard sounds more emotional, you can really feel it when listening to Jazz, the trumpet kicks up the notch at the right place with Mullard tubes. We agreed on that the total improvements is over 10% .
> ...


 
 May I know where you bought those Mullard tubes? Want to do some tube rolling. Also what is the improvement more specifically compared to stock tubes?


----------



## zach915m

hrq12345 said:


> May I know where you bought those Mullard tubes? Want to do some tube rolling. Also what is the improvement more specifically compared to stock tubes?


 

  Yes yes tell us all about the Mullards again!  =)  Love my Mullards....


----------



## willsw

stage said:


> Hi, I currently use Resonessence Concero HP DAC/AMP. It does not have RCA out, so I plan to use 1/4" to RCA cable and connect it to Microzotl. However I have a concern here, if I keep the volume on my Concero HP at -5db the output will be 1.98 vrms, would it be too high for the Micro ? Im asking this because when the output of Micro is only 1 watt how can I provide 2 watts as input into the micro. Sorry if its a very basic question but I don't know much technically so seeking your advice.
> 
> Also has anyone tried LCD-X with Micro ? any impressions will be very helpful as I currently own a LCD-X
> 
> Thanks in advance


 
  
 The only issue you could encounter, I believe, is possible distortion at high volumes. My recommendation would be to turn the Concero volume down all the way and then up until you get to a comfortable volume range on the microZOTL2 knob.
  
 I've not tried the LCD-X but we have brought the LCD-XC with us to the two shows we've been to with many positive responses. It has been a few months since I've listened to them, and I've only listened to them with the microZOTL2, so that's all I can really say.


----------



## doctorjazz

OK, so I did try the NOS tubes I got to some extent last night. I got Hytron, tried them first, didn't love them, bass all soft and mushy, did do nice things to the mids but not worth the trade off imo. Then tried RCA's I just got as well, much better, bass back, good impact, good mids. ? some high frequency noise? Wasn't sure, wanted to go back to compare to the stock Sovteks, then JRiver crashed. Have this problem periodically, my LH Labs Geek Out Special Edition and JRiver don't play well together sometimes. Couldn't get it to start again, may have to uninstall/reinstall drivers or the whole program,. 
More posts when I can finally get back to listening on my main headphone system (suppose I can just connect Pono to it, as I do with the bedroom system, but the PC system is better sounding. Pono/Zotl ain't nothin' to sneeze at, though). 
OK, off to 3rd shoveling round, so far snow is winning, but think I'll score some points this morning. Later on, GO BRONCOS (DEFEAT the EVIL EMPIRE!!!!!).


----------



## svmusa

doctorjazz said:


> OK, so I did try the NOS tubes I got to some extent last night. I got Hytron, tried them first, didn't love them, bass all soft and mushy, did do nice things to the mids but not worth the trade off imo. Then tried RCA's I just got as well, much better, bass back, good impact, good mids. ? some high frequency noise? Wasn't sure, wanted to go back to compare to the stock Sovteks, then JRiver crashed. Have this problem periodically, my LH Labs Geek Out Special Edition and JRiver don't play well together sometimes. Couldn't get it to start again, may have to uninstall/reinstall drivers or the whole program,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Assuming these are NOS tubes, I do recommend to let the tubes burn in quite a bit to really show their true potential. I did learn on my Sylvania 5692 and Kenrad 6SN7 it took a good 50 to 100 hours for things to start sound as folks have described in various threads.


----------



## doctorjazz

Hmmm, OK, makes instant A-B comparisons impossible, though. Now, if I can just get JRiver/Geek Out to make some music...


----------



## svmusa

I do agree on making instant A-B comparison difficult and subjective, but generally on few reference songs you can start picking the differences to land on a tube that gives the right synergy and sound signature with the headphone and source collection - that was my end goal with tube rolling.
  
 I referred to an old MicroZotl original version tube rolling thread and picked the Sylvania 5692 and Kenrad 6SN7 with Sylvania GB 12AT7, the recommendations from that thread were right on.... seems like I personally lean on sound signature with bass and neutrality in rest of the spectrum so Kenrad suites me well but if I had to recommend a good tube that can satisfy a typical listener than I would go for Sylvania 5692 and Gold brand 12AT7. 
  
 Stock tubes I find bass has less definition but rest of the spectrum sounds fine with a tad less energy and impact than my NOS tubes, overall for me the NOS tubes brings a good 25% improvement over stock tubes in my own setup. 
  
 It would be great to hear others learning as well..here is the old thread for those that are into tube rolling. I have been using conclusions from scottpaul_iu 
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/8494/microzotl-tube-rolling-thread/60


----------



## doctorjazz

OK, thanks, get back to listening if I ever get the PC sound back 
(meantime, GO BRONCOS!)


----------



## doctorjazz

Broncos won! Yay!
Got Ponomusic world working again (had to reinstall drivers, uninstall the Ponomusic World program and reinstall it...Have JRiver21 with the same problem, but it's a bigger pain to do it with JRiver since you need to enter the registration numbers, which I would have to get from them, can live just fine with Ponomusic world, it is JRiver without the video part). 
Anyway, my non burned in, non comparison, unscientific, totally biased (hahahaha) impression, after a few minutes of listening to them, is that I like these NOS RCA tubes. Seems to have a bit more presence, immediacy, compared to what I remember of the stock Sovteks, which is a good thing for my HEK, which leans towards laid back (of course, I may change my mind after burn in, or on recomparing them). Maybe lose a bit of clarity, not sure, but they have about 10 minutes of listening time on them.


----------



## jelt2359

What's the general consensus regarding the mzotl2 as a pre?


----------



## doctorjazz

I could try it into the Liquid Carbon, then listen to the HEK, but I'm not sure that's what you really want to know...

(just go for it, I know you want it... )
Back to the tubes, I can see the appeal, if you decide you need to change your sound sig, instead of going out and buying a new amp, a few tube substitutions would probably hold you from upgrade-itis for a bit...cool!


----------



## jelt2359

Was thinking more along the lines of plugging it into the Krell!


----------



## doctorjazz

Need a good unbalanced interconnect to do it, run the Krell balanced from my Peachtree Grand Pre...I'll see what I can dig up. 



jelt2359 said:


> Was thinking more along the lines of plugging it into the Krell!


----------



## willsw

jelt2359 said:


> What's the general consensus regarding the mzotl2 as a pre?


 
  
Here's a review that uses it as a preamp at AVrev.com.
The AudioCircle guys reviewed the room with the MicroZOTL2.0 as a preamp to the ZOTL40. 
  
 We actually test the MicroZOTL2.0s primarily by using them as preamps. Everyone can keep working while enjoying music. Headphones are used as well, of course.


----------



## NightDayAudio

After some time to listen and compare back and forth with all the other gear here, I am very impressed with the sonics of the ZOTL2.0.  Did a little tube swapping on the 6SN7 variants...not a lot as I don't have the complete collection of every 6SN7 ever made like I used to in the past.... but as a dealer, that is a slippery slope if I am going to demo the amp for possible buyers with non-stock tubes... need to show it in stock form so buyers aren't mad/upset/disappointed when they get theirs and it doesn't sound like it did during the demo.  I have to remember to swap back in stock tubes for a demo 
  
 Power supplies are an easier demo and explanation in my experience.... so far, I'm enjoying the SBooster the most with it of the options here for us to use.  It adds weight, increases bass depth and definition, and opens things up even more and creates and even more enveloping sound.  Keeps the speed, resolution, detail and openness of the stock unit and just adds more to the overall presentation.  I've been very happy so far with every situation where I added an Sbooster power supply... very very nice product and not really expensive either for the improvements that come with one in the chain... very curious to hear the factory linear power supply in comparison as soon as it is shipping...
  
 this headphone amp is not out of place with top shelf electronics in front of it and headphones after it.... I really like it with the PS Audio DirectStream DSD DAC, as well as with the top end Lumin Music network players.  It's also a very nice sounding preamp as well in a home stereo system... lack of remote kills it for us lazy buggers that use network music players with digital files that have wildly varying recording levels.  But it is a startlingly great sounding piece of gear for not a lot of cash compared to its performance.  I don't have any of the ultra high efficiency Tannoys here on display (we're only stocking up to the Definition line and don't have the reference stuff here yet).  So I can't really comment on how well it drives speakers with its lower power output... on lower efficiency stuff here it works but it does run out of juice when pushed.... it is only a watt after all 
  
 We have the ZOTL40 power amp here as well....  very, very nice on speaker setups... that drives the crap out of anything we have here on display...
  
 These are unique product offerings that have a compelling story to tell that will appeal to a lot of customer's sonic tastes and offer a value that is tough to beat.
  
 Anyone in the Raleigh/Durham area of NC (or within driving distance) that wants to come hear this and compare it with a multitude of other options is more than welcome.  We've got a good chunk of the comparable products out there available here to listen to, along with all Audeze LCD series and EL-8, Mr. Speakers Ether and Ether C, Sennheiser HD800, ENIGMAcoustics Dharma, ADL, etc. etc. etc. headphones so you can hear everything in one place.


----------



## doctorjazz

Thanks, will look into the SBooster power supply, just looked at the site, reasonable, wondering if you get more for about 3X the money with the Mojo. Also, don't see US dealers listed, but I can email the company to find out about that. Is Linear Tube Audio releasing their own LPS? Any details on price?
The mZOTL is a great little amp, as you note-Steve Guttenberg liked the mZOTL driving the Klipsch RP-150M high efficiency speakers. I'm wanting to try it as a preamp one of these days, but, as my current main system is balanced, I have to dig up the interconnects to make it work. 
I have used it out of my Linn LP12/Pro-Ject Tube Box S, into my HE-1000...man, it makes a nice sound, indeed, though I mostly, for ergonomic reasons, have it in my PC based system. 

I replaced the stock Sovtek tubes with NOS RCAs, have had them in for about 5 days now. I think it does nice things for image solidity, bass impact, PRAT, maybe not as open sounding, as much air/space/soundstage as the original tubes, but, as I can't go back and forth yet (still really in burn in from what I've been told), not 100% sure. But it's fun to play with, a bit like getting a new amp (without buying a new amp, though I can see that the tube purchases can start to add up in no time...)


----------



## willsw

We will have a prototype of our linear power supply at the Philadelphia meet this Sunday (we were waiting for the unpainted case to be pulled off the line and shipped over to announce, but oh well). The final version (basically, when the painted cases arrive, as long as they're all good) will be announced, along with date of availability and price, very soon. And for those who already own a MicroZOTL2, we'll certainly be letting you know our appreciation in our release pricing.


----------



## doctorjazz

willsw said:


> We will have a prototype of our linear power supply at the Philadelphia meet this Sunday (we were waiting for the unpainted case to be pulled off the line and shipped over to announce, but oh well). The final version (basically, when the painted cases arrive, as long as they're all good) will be announced, along with date of availability and price, very soon. And for those who already own a MicroZOTL2, we'll certainly be letting you know our appreciation in our release pricing.




Cool, tight schedule Sunday, could jump out but I have to go to a heavy metal concert with my teen daughter (getting ready to surf the crowd...), (Breaking Benjamin and Starset), maybe I can get out early and get back on time, maybe not, the info will be appreciated anyway, thanks.


----------



## jcx

the "ZOTL" is an amusing misdirection - or even a lie
  
 there are transformers in each output, clearly seen in the photos, detailed in the patent
  
 they are however ferrite pot core high frequency transformers being fed audio (plate V ?) chopped way above audio (250 kHz according to the op text) just like switching power supply transformers that Audiophiles are often suspicious of
  
 you can also see the pot core for the step-up switching power supply too - for a total of 3 transformers in the box, solid state switches. high frequency switching all over the place in that box, "in the signal path" even, and the internal wire bundles not even twisted/shielded
  
 it is an interesting technological approach to an engineer - I find it amusing that it violates so many Audiophile Memes, seems to get a pass on novelty, perhaps ignorance of what the circuit actually does
  
 I would love to think it were only being rated on literal "sound" - but I personally really doubt it when reading so much typical Audiophile hype - much echoing the marketing, not reflecting on the tech that would otherwise be expected to be anathema to Audiophiles, especially vacuum tube fans
  
 even on just vacuum tube amp topology grounds push-pull lacks the mystique of SET too - might as well just go for accuracy, literal "hi fidelity" - which SS does cheaper, and much cleaner than adding 250 kHz switching converters in series with the outputs
  
 while SET may well have "tasty" distortions, push-pull cancels the even harmonics, reducing "tube character", in fact Carver tweaked one of his SS power amps for full sized loudspeakers to match a more expensive "Audiophile respected" push-pull tube amp - to Stereophile's "Golden Ears" - in their own offices, their selection of music, speakers...
http://www.stereophile.com/content/carver-challenge#cLxahGobkx87V301.97


----------



## willsw

> Did a little tube swapping on the 6SN7 variants...not a lot as I don't have the complete collection of every 6SN7 ever made like I used to in the past....


 
  
 Let us know which tubes you end up preferring. We're always interested in what can make the MicroZOTL2.0 sound better.


----------



## jelt2359

jcx said:


> the "ZOTL" is an amusing misdirection - or even a lie
> 
> there are transformers in each output, clearly seen in the photos, detailed in the patent
> 
> ...


 
  
 Can you share a bit more about your understanding of the ZOTL tech? I must admit that I do not understand any of the current explanations about the unique approach employed in the ZOTL, and how it differs from OTL, vs traditional transformer-coupled amps.


----------



## saidentary

jcx said:


> the "ZOTL" is an amusing misdirection - or even a lie
> 
> there are transformers in each output, clearly seen in the photos, detailed in the patent
> 
> ...


 
 So..........have you ever actually LISTENED to any headphones with this unit in the chain?  I am very certainly ignorant of "what the circuit actually does" and will continue to remain blissfully ignorant thereof.  My judgement of this unit was based solely on one parameter:  its SOUND, as I describe in my HE-1000 beta tester review.


----------



## jcx

I think my position on "just listen" "naive subjectivist" testimony is well known - did you read the Carver Stereophile link?
  
 did you apply all of the well known controls needed to turn human listening impressions into useful Psychoacoustically valid conclusions?
  
  
 but I don't know how the Berning designs, specific versions would show in such testing, just pointing to the tech being used and the typical Vacuum Tube Audiophile aficionado opinion of those techs even when not in the sound path
  
_its success is fine by me - may do objectively fine - after all analog mag tape used similar high frequency AC bias and is revered too as "analog" sound_
  
  
 Quote:


jcx said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *slwiser* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> ...


 
 Quote: 





jcx said:


> I actually believe switched mode power supplies are capable of great performance with careful design/implementation they can be included in audiophile grade equipment without apology
> 
> But that is not the general perception, particularly among tube amp aficionados which explains my amusement when they embrace the Berning circuit as a valid “OTL” amp approach
> 
> ...


 
  


jcx said:


> Berning "output transformerless" is a lie - it uses a transformer in the switching converter which it runs the audio through
> 
> 
> Quote:
> ...


----------



## donlin

saidentary said:


> So..........have you ever actually LISTENED to any headphones with this unit in the chain?  I am very certainly ignorant of "what the circuit actually does" and will continue to remain blissfully ignorant thereof.  My judgement of this unit was based solely on one parameter:  its SOUND, as I describe in my HE-1000 beta tester review.




Please don't waste your time trying to argue with these guys. They don't need to listen because they already know and anything you think you hear isn't valid. There's no way to win.


----------



## kikouyou

donlin said:


> Please don't waste your time trying to argue with these guys. They don't need to listen because they already know and anything you think you hear isn't valid. There's no way to win.


 

 There is probably a middle road. The fact that the sound signal is transmitted through a transformer over a high frequency carrier, is allowing to avoid some of the pitfalls of the transformer technology   seen in standard implementations (bandwidth and frequency/energy transmission in normal sound frequencies). What should be technically scrutinized then is the analog coding and decoding to and from this high frequency carrier, rather than just looking at the fact that there is a transformer. At the end of the day, only the sound count indeed, but the technology is cool to understand too


----------



## jelt2359

donlin said:


> Please don't waste your time trying to argue with these guys. They don't need to listen because they already know and anything you think you hear isn't valid. There's no way to win.


 
 Personally, I love listening notes, but I'm still waiting for ones that compare the MZOTL2 against others that I know or are well-regarded here (Eddie Current, Apex, etc etc). I know that's coming soon, but in the meantime the main thing that's interesting to me (and also, I'm assuming, the main thing _I'm supposed_ to be interested in, given the way it is marketed...) is the technology. I can't make sense of it, so if someone else can, I'd be happy to hear the explanations... Anyone?


----------



## jelt2359

kikouyou said:


> There is probably a middle road. The fact that the sound signal is transmitted through a transformer over a high frequency carrier, is allowing to avoid some of the pitfalls of the transformer technology   seen in standard implementations (bandwidth and frequency/energy transmission in normal sound frequencies). What should be technically scrutinized then is the analog coding and decoding to and from this high frequency carrier, rather than just looking at the fact that there is a transformer. At the end of the day, only the sound count indeed, but the technology is cool to understand too


 
 Thank you kky. That makes a lot of sense. Can you explain this a bit more? We can also take it to PM if easier:
 1) what are the pitfalls of transformer technology?
 2) are there any downsides to this high freq carrier?


----------



## donlin

kikouyou said:


> There is probably a middle road. The fact that the sound signal is transmitted through a transformer over a high frequency carrier, is allowing to avoid some of the pitfalls of the transformer technology   seen in standard implementations (bandwidth and frequency/energy transmission in normal sound frequencies). What should be technically scrutinized then is the analog coding and decoding to and from this high frequency carrier, rather than just looking at the fact that there is a transformer. At the end of the day, only the sound count indeed, but the technology is cool to understand too




It's difficult to find middle ground in this old argument because in the end it all boils down to can you trust your ears to tell you what sounds better or not.


----------



## kikouyou

donlin said:


> It's difficult to find middle ground in this old argument because in the end it all boils down to can you trust your ears to tell you what sounds better or not.




Some of us do not have the luxury of listening before buying. So it is the words from those who have the gear or try the gear which are important and whatever comprehension of the technology that you may understand...


----------



## saidentary

> Originally Posted by *jcx* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> I think my position on "just listen" "naive subjectivist" testimony is well known - did you read the Carver Stereophile link?
> 
> did you apply all of the well known controls needed to turn human listening impressions into useful Psychoacoustically valid conclusions?


 
  I read part of the Carver link and found it long and tedious, mildly interesting in its conclusions but generally speaking not particularly helpful.  The authors were surprised that they didn't get more response from the readers--they shouldn't have been surprised.
  
 Since you don't state your position regarding actually listening, I'll assume that you find it inferior to "objective" measurements that can be made by instruments--instruments that were built, tested and calibrated by subjective humans.  I disagree.  I could hardly care less about such measurements if I don't like the way something sounds.  But perhaps you and I are pursuing different goals.  My goal is enjoyment of the music.  What makes me an audiophile is the fact that I'm extremely picky about those sonic preferences.  This pickiness implies a _tendency _toward a preference for gear that measures well.  But since my goal is to have fun and enjoy what I'm listening to, I will always trust my own ears over measurements.  The measurements are SECONDARY, not primary, in any evaluation of how something sounds. 
  
 What I did to evaluate the unit was described in the review of the HE-1000.  I'm not writing a research paper on the MicroZOTL 2, nor do I particularly care whether my highly favorable impressions of the unit constitute psychoacoustically valid conclusions. 
  
 My question for you is this: Why on earth would anyone put more faith in measurements (which are by definition a surrogate for direct observation) than in listening with their own ears (which actually is direct observation using hearing)?


----------



## saidentary

kikouyou said:


> Some of us do not have the luxury of listening before buying. So it is the words from those who have the gear or try the gear which are important and whatever comprehension of the technology that you may understand...


 

 I sympathize with that and I intend no disrespect.  The best I can suggest would be either getting a unit on a trial basis or finding someone whose listening preferences match yours very well.  If that person has heard the MicroZOTL 2 then that would be the next best thing.  Measurements are not useless, but I don't see how they can replace listening for oneself.


----------



## doctorjazz

Often it is a crash shoot...it wasn't possible for me to listen when the ZOTL came out, no one was selling it at that point except the manufacturer. I went on impressions of a friend. Yes, I have gotten burned that way at times. The ability to have a trial certainly mitigates things.

If I make it to the Philadelphia meet this coming Sunday, maybe I'll be able to compare ZOTL to some of the higher priced spread. Probably should put the stock tubes back in tonight...


----------



## jelt2359

doctorjazz said:


> Often it is a crash shoot...it wasn't possible for me to listen when the ZOTL came out, no one was selling it at that point except the manufacturer. I went on impressions of a friend. Yes, I have gotten burned that way at times. The ability to have a trial certainly mitigates things.
> 
> If I make it to the Philadelphia meet this coming Sunday, maybe I'll be able to compare ZOTL to some of the higher priced spread. Probably should put the stock tubes back in tonight...




Look forward to that Jack! Appreciate you being willing to drive to Philly in this weather


----------



## doctorjazz

jelt2359 said:


> doctorjazz said:
> 
> 
> > Often it is a crash shoot...it wasn't possible for me to listen when the ZOTL came out, no one was selling it at that point except the manufacturer. I went on impressions of a friend. Yes, I have gotten burned that way at times. The ability to have a trial certainly mitigates things.
> ...




Sure thing, the issue is not the snow, which is still on the ground, but the roads are already pretty good. More the time. 1.5 hours or so each way, and have a concert I'm taking my daughter to Sunday night (Breaking Benjamin "Unplugged", and Starset....metal bands. Which begs the question, if you play heavy metal unplugged, is it still metal?) Do my best to pull it off, I'd like to get there.


----------



## bazelio

saidentary said:


> kikouyou said:
> 
> 
> > Some of us do not have the luxury of listening before buying. So it is the words from those who have the gear or try the gear which are important and whatever comprehension of the technology that you may understand...
> ...


 
  
 The MicroZOTL2 comes with a 15 day trial period.  So, buy it, try it, and if you don't like it, kick it back.  I'm still waiting for a set of ETHER-C cans to arrive, so I've not yet ordered my MZ2.  I'll be taking full advantage of the trial period, myself.


----------



## yukihasi

Well, first thing to clarify, I am not a circuit designer and have very limited knowledge about circuit design, but from my understanding of the explanation from some audiophilers in China, the design is very unique and explains the sound signature of it. (one of them is an engineer involved in the design of Rockna DAC) I have the explanations in Chinese but figure that won't help. 
  
 Again, I am not here to argue with anything with anyone, I had my doubts, I auditioned it at a local store bought it to give it a home trial since it has a 15-day return policy and I decided to keep it. It is always good to have suspicion and questions, but my one and only way to judge any audiophile equipment is by the sound quality.


----------



## jhljhl

Can you use a 6922 to 6sn7 adapter with the microzotl2?


----------



## doctorjazz

So, I swapped out the RCA NOS tubes for the original Sovtek tubes (figured I'd bring it to the Philadelphia area meet in its stock configuration). Not sure if the RCA;s were sufficiently burned in...have had them in and turned on for about a week, but not with music playing through them (except for the few minutes here and there I had a chance to listen). Just put my HE-1000 on again out of curiosity, as I have had a chance to play some tunes here and there with the RCA's. So, with the caveat that I may not have burned long enough (what is enough, anyway?), I did find the RCA's to bring a bit of richness to voices, instruments, maybe a bit more impact or "oomph", but it lost the open, wide stage, imaging detail and, maybe, a bit of naturalness of the ZOTL presentation with the stock tubes. Actually happy to be listening again through the stock. I will go back and try a bit more with the RCA's, though. (this may require more tube purchases, OY!)


----------



## doctorjazz

svmusa said:


> I do agree on making instant A-B comparison difficult and subjective, but generally on few reference songs you can start picking the differences to land on a tube that gives the right synergy and sound signature with the headphone and source collection - that was my end goal with tube rolling.
> 
> I referred to an old MicroZotl original version tube rolling thread and picked the Sylvania 5692 and Kenrad 6SN7 with Sylvania GB 12AT7, the recommendations from that thread were right on.... seems like I personally lean on sound signature with bass and neutrality in rest of the spectrum so Kenrad suites me well but if I had to recommend a good tube that can satisfy a typical listener than I would go for Sylvania 5692 and Gold brand 12AT7.
> 
> ...




The Sylvania is the same as the Hytron 6sn7gt, no? At least, that was the sense I got on a quick Google search. I did try a pair of non burned in NOS Hytron tubes I just purchased as well, less bass than the RCA's (which is why I started my rolling with the RCA's after a quick listen). I know, needs to burn in for a kazillion hours before I REALLY hear what they sound like. 

In the meantime, back to the Sovtek, what I said about the stage, imaging, air still applies as I continue to listen, but I am starting to miss a bit of the richness and impact. Need to have it all...


----------



## doctorjazz

So, do I need to search for Mullard tubes? A quick search and it looks like these are pretty expensive...


----------



## nephilim32

doctorjazz said:


> So, I swapped out the RCA NOS tubes for the original Sovtek tubes (figured I'd bring it to the Philadelphia area meet in its stock configuration). Not sure if the RCA;s were sufficiently burned in...have had them in and turned on for about a week, but not with music playing through them (except for the few minutes here and there I had a chance to listen). Just put my HE-1000 on again out of curiosity, as I have had a chance to play some tunes here and there with the RCA's. So, with the caveat that I may not have burned long enough (what is enough, anyway?), I did find the RCA's to bring a bit of richness to voices, instruments, maybe a bit more impact or "oomph", but it lost the open, wide stage, imaging detail and, maybe, a bit of naturalness of the ZOTL presentation with the stock tubes. Actually happy to be listening again through the stock. I will go back and try a bit more with the RCA's, though. (this may require more tube purchases, OY!)




I absolutely find it so commendable for how much love you've given this amp. You and a few others here I know, have really gone to good lengths to explore what Berning's Micro Z is really capable. 
I'm glad I've still subscribed to this thread to keep in touch. Great read. I'm still in love with my current at home rig, but I know one day I gotta try this thing. 

Happy listening.


----------



## TomekZ

Rolled the Tung-Sol stock 12at7 for Psvane (a current new stock of high regard) 12at7. Straight away a bigger and fuller tone, and a cleaner quieter atmosphere. 
      As a preamp: I've the microZOTL 2 running into my Red Wine Signature 16 with balanced headphone out. I use a y-plug so as to run my DAC (also a Red Wine Audio) into either the Signature 16 straight or via the microZOTL 2. By a turn of the selector knob, I can hear what the microZOTL does as a preamp. I've done this same experiment with a  Decware CSP2+ preamp and a Red Wine Isabella preamp...either of these costing more than the microZOTL. The microZOTL does not roll the highs and barely fattens the midrange as both the other preamps do dramatically. What it does is add punch to the bass and increase dynamics and the treble detail is retained fully. I love this as a preamp.
      As a headphone amp, it bests my Red Wine Audio in harmonic richness and spaciousness and midrange instrumental separation (noticeable in dense symphonic music).


----------



## jamato8

As time goes by, more and more people will, hopefully, realize what a great amp the micro is and that both its exceptional performance and low price compared to what you end up getting.


----------



## doctorjazz

Seems like Tung-Sol is the next tube I should try...or was that Mullard?


----------



## doctorjazz

After a while, can spend enough to buy another amp!


----------



## adamaley

jcx said:


> the "ZOTL" is an amusing misdirection - or even a lie
> 
> there are transformers in each output, clearly seen in the photos, detailed in the patent
> 
> ...


 
 What?? I don't get the point of this post. Have you heard the amp or at least measured it? So, you have done a great job dissecting its topology, and you don't think it should sound great based on what you see. Should we extrapolate that to mean those who have it shouldn't enjoy its sonics anymore?


----------



## donlin

adamaley said:


> What?? I don't get the point of this post. Have you heard the amp or at least measured it? So, you have done a great job dissecting its topology, and you don't think it should sound great based on what you see. Should we extrapolate that to mean those who have it shouldn't enjoy its sonics anymore?




That post is the typical objectivist jab at audiophiles who trust their ears to tell them how something sounds. It implies that first, audiophiles are fools for thinking that there are any real differences between well designed amps, second that they are fools for falling for buzzwords like otl, tubes, etc and on top of that they are fools for being tricked into thinking the microzotl is something he thinks it's not. He's sure we only think the microzotl sounds good because we have been swayed by these buzz words, not because we listen and love the way it sounds. These guys seem to lurk everywhere and when the discussion gets too enthusiastic and people start having too much fun, they have to jump in and lay out the "facts". The Sennheiser threads are loaded with them.


----------



## richard51

if you read about the microzotl and Berning description of his topology, it is clear that this guy do not sell snakeoil....like this post suggest...On the contrary this post is amateurish 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 ideology about "cliché" on the audiophile world versus engineer measurement  etc ...


----------



## doctorjazz

True, an "objectivist" had descended, who had never listened to the amp, but knows we are all deluded. One of the recurring hazards on Head fi.


----------



## saidentary

donlin said:


> That post is the typical objectivist jab at audiophiles who trust their ears to tell them how something sounds. It implies that first, audiophiles are fools for thinking that there are any real differences between well designed amps, second that they are fools for falling for buzzwords like otl, tubes, etc and on top of that they are fools for being tricked into thinking the microzotl is something he thinks it's not. He's sure we only think the microzotl sounds good because we have been swayed by these buzz words, not because we listen and love the way it sounds. These guys seem to lurk everywhere and when the discussion gets too enthusiastic and people start having too much fun, they have to jump in and lay out the "facts". The Sennheiser threads are loaded with them.


 
 I think you're right about this.  What I find ironic and even contradictory is that judgement is passed _a priori.  _All of science is based on direct observation.  Theories are generated based on evidence and data gathered by direct and empiric observation, NOT the other way around.  So to base his conclusion on theory and extrapolation of his analysis of the circuit, *without having ever heard the unit*, is patently absurd, at least in my opinion.  The whole point of this hobby is to attain a great sound.  Greatness of the sound is defined subjectively, and the subjective impression is made by _listening_.  Things that sound great tend to have great measurements.  But the measurements are SECONDARY, not primary, to the audiophile's final decision.  The sine qua non is how a unit *sounds*.


----------



## bazelio

Actually I don't know what everyone is freaking out about here. It was a very reasonable post or two which didn't really pass judgment on the sound. It actually brought some new insight to the thread. This thread hasn't been terribly balanced anyhow.

In other news, I skills have my new cans this week, at which point I'll order the Zotl2 and see what all the fuse is about once and for all!


----------



## adamaley

bazelio said:


> Actually I don't know what everyone is freaking out about here. It was a very reasonable post or two which didn't really pass judgment on the sound. It actually brought some new insight to the thread. This thread hasn't been terribly balanced anyhow.
> 
> In other news, I skills have my new cans this week, at which point I'll order the Zotl2 and see what all the fuse is about once and for all!


 
 Insight? That's what I was searching for in his post.


----------



## adamaley

Keep in mind, I don't even own the amp, just considering purchase, so if there's anyone looking for balance, I'd be that person.


----------



## bazelio

adamaley said:


> bazelio said:
> 
> 
> > Actually I don't know what everyone is freaking out about here. It was a very reasonable post or two which didn't really pass judgment on the sound. It actually brought some new insight to the thread. This thread hasn't been terribly balanced anyhow.
> ...




You were already familiar with the patent? I was not.

I'll give an honest review and compare to the ZDS soon.


----------



## jelt2359

bazelio said:


> You were already familiar with the patent? I was not.
> 
> I'll give an honest review and compare to the ZDS soon.


 
 Will they be using the HD600 and Ether C?


----------



## bazelio

jelt2359 said:


> bazelio said:
> 
> 
> > You were already familiar with the patent? I was not.
> ...


 
  
  
 Well the HD600 (modded) stays at home, and the ETHER-C goes to work.  The ZOTL is slated to be the work amp assuming it's to my liking.  Most likely I'll run the ZOTL at home for about a week and compare it to the ZDS with the HD600, before taking it to work to match up with the ETHER-C for the remaining week of the trial period.  But now that you mention it, perhaps I should bring the ETHER-C home at some point just to hear them sing with the ZDS.  Eventually I have plans to replace the 10+ year old HD600 with the new HD800S....  but not yet.


----------



## saidentary

bazelio said:


> Actually I don't know what everyone is freaking out about here. It was a very reasonable post or two which didn't really pass judgment on the sound. It actually brought some new insight to the thread.


 
 Several things were irksome to me, and sounded more arrogant than reasonable:
 First post:
  
Originally Posted by *jcx* 


  "ZOTL" is an amusing misdirection - or even a lie......................seems to get a pass on novelty, .........................................would love to think it were only being rated on literal "sound" - but I personally really doubt it when reading so much typical Audiophile hype - much echoing the marketing, not reflecting on the tech that would otherwise be expected to be anathema to Audiophiles, especially vacuum tube fans................................................
  
 I found the "lie" comment to be the most irksome, even though that part of his post was directed at Berning and Schneider.  The rest of it was irksome as well, so I asked him if he'd even heard the unit: 
 His response:
  
 I think my position on "just listen" "naive subjectivist" testimony is well known - did you read the Carver Stereophile link?
  
 did you apply all of the well known controls needed to turn human listening impressions into useful Psychoacoustically valid conclusions?
  
 His response leads me to believe that he hasn't even heard the unit and is just postulating about the sound based on his reading of the patent for the unit's design. 


bazelio said:


> In other news, I skills have my new cans this week, at which point I'll order the Zotl2 and see what all the fuse is about once and for all!


 
 What you're going to do is LISTEN to the unit and THEN form an impression.  That makes much more sense (to me, anyway) than reading the patent and deciding that it "must" (or at least is very likely to) sound bad.


----------



## saidentary

adamaley said:


> Keep in mind, I don't even own the amp, just considering purchase, so if there's anyone looking for balance, I'd be that person.


 

 Well, the MicroZOTL 2 offers an unbalanced (single ended) headphone output only........Wait! That's not what you were talking about, was it?


----------



## jelt2359

Actually, as a potential customer, I found it rather useful. The most interesting thing about the MZOTL is the "Z" part of the OTL. If it was just a regular OTL, then I'd wait for comparisons to the Apex Teton, the WA2, and one that bazelio is going to compare to- the EC ZDS. In such cases, yes, listening notes are most critical.
  
 But this is _not_ the regular OTL. I don't understand it, and jcx does at least seem to. So I think such discussion is just as useful and warranted as the regular posts of impressions. For example, EC is lauded for their AC-heating, that seems to add an element of spaciousness and openness, at the possible expense of hum if you can hear to 40khz (nobody can). So there's some logic here that has nothing to do with listening notes.
  
 On the other hand, the ZOTL- I understand there's no transformer, I understand the impedance is lowered using a radio carrier wave, but that's it. I would love to learn more about other pros and cons of this technology.


----------



## bazelio

jelt2359 said:


> Actually, as a potential customer, I found it rather useful. The most interesting thing about the MZOTL is the "Z" part of the OTL. If it was just a regular OTL, then I'd wait for comparisons to the Apex Teton, the WA2, and one that bazelio is going to compare to- the EC ZDS. In such cases, yes, listening notes are most critical.
> 
> But this is _not_ the regular OTL. I don't understand it, and jcx does at least seem to. So I think such discussion is just as useful and warranted as the regular posts of impressions. For example, EC is lauded for their AC-heating, that seems to add an element of spaciousness and openness, at the possible expense of hum if you can hear to 40khz (nobody can). So there's some logic here that has nothing to do with listening notes.
> 
> On the other hand, the ZOTL- I understand there's no transformer, I understand the impedance is lowered using a radio carrier wave, but that's it. I would love to learn more about other pros and cons of this technology.




The posts didn't postulate about the sound as far as I'm concerned, and I still don't see what the big deal is/was.

As far as the EC ZDS, yes there is a touch of grain. It is very, very difficult to discern with my HD600, but in an otherwise dead quiet environment, you can make it out. When music is playing, absolutely no chance though.

So at this point, based on feedback only, I'd guess the ZOTL2 is quieter. And that would be an advantage, albeit a very minor one. I also notice it more with certain NOS tubes than with others. Notably my Mullard ECC35 which nevertheless is my favorite so far. So, maybe, you might say the grain is actually an advantage then? Hehehe. I'll certainly take the hint of grain to get the musicality of the Mullard all day.


----------



## jelt2359

bazelio said:


> The posts didn't postulate about the sound as far as I'm concerned, and I still don't see what the big deal is/was.
> 
> As far as the EC ZDS, yes there is a touch of grain. It is very, very difficult to discern with my HD600, but in an otherwise dead quiet environment, you can make it out. When music is playing, absolutely no chance though.
> 
> So at this point, based on feedback only, I'd guess the ZOTL2 is quieter. And that would be an advantage, albeit a very minor one. I also notice it more with certain NOS tubes than with others. Notably my Mullard ECC35 which nevertheless is my favorite so far. So, maybe, you might say the grain is actually an advantage then? Hehehe. I'll certainly take the hint of grain to get the musicality of the Mullard all day.


 
 I don't mind grain as well. If I want pitch black, plenty of good solid state amps.
  
 The ECC35 can't be used in the MZOTL2, no?


----------



## bazelio

jelt2359 said:


> bazelio said:
> 
> 
> > The posts didn't postulate about the sound as far as I'm concerned, and I still don't see what the big deal is/was.
> ...




No it can not. I'd probably go with Sylvania Bad Boys as a first upgrade to the ZOTL2.


----------



## adamaley

Lol, well this is the first time a troll appears to have provided some enlightenment. Like I said, I have no horse in the race. I'll get to listen to this amp at the ChiUnifi meet this coming weekend. Since it's a meet, I'll still not feel I am warranted to comment on its sound conclusively, let alone call its mere existence a 'lie' and its design statement a 'misdirection'. Oh, and all the people who have listened to it and given impressions, idiots. Anyway, it will be great to have this thread move on in its original direction. Sorry for feeding the troll. It appears they win no matter what you do.


----------



## bazelio

Nah. Not a troll. The name does appear a bit disingenuous. Maybe they should have called it the AOTL. Almost Output TransformerLess. Heh. And I've been saying the same thing about the lack of reference in this thread. But so what. If it sounds appealing to my ears then I will keep and enjoy the amp. That's it.


----------



## adamaley

By the way Bazelio, I noticed in your signature that you have the Mystique V2 DAC. I checked out their room at RMAF and read the DAC review on audiophilia.com. You are the only outside of the audiocircle forums I've encountered with this DAC. Mind if I PM you about some DAC questions?


----------



## bazelio

No of course I don't mind.  The short of it is, I decided to try it on a whim because there was a great deal on a reviewer demo unit with a long trial period, and I ended up keeping it as well as getting another.    Actually the other is the V1 that I've taken to work, but I picked it up used from Ben fully bench tested with warranty for the price of a DAC-19... so it was a no brainer.


----------



## sheldaze

The article mentions Z-OTL as a class of variants to the OTL:
  
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Output_transformerless


----------



## willsw

sheldaze said:


> The article mentions Z-OTL as a class of variants to the OTL:
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Output_transformerless


 
  
 The ZOTL (ZerO hysteresis Transformer-Less) is an OTL amp but it is not the OTL aspect that gives it its signature sound quality - it is that the audio signal "rides" an amplifying carrier frequency which an impedance converter then delivers to the output.
  
 More information on this on the Technology page at Linear Tube Audio, which includes links at the bottom to a White Paper on David Berning's page comparing an impedance converter to an output transformer. There is also a section comparing the ZOTL to other OTL amps on the Technology page.


----------



## bazelio

*Power cords don't make a difference.*
  
 Or so I've always thought.  Well I needed a few extra power cords and picked up a few of these.  Normally I use some low inductance cables I found at Home Depot long ago.  Upon plugging these new in to my gear (both the DAC and the amp), I immediately noticed more bass.  How can I be sure?  Well, I EQ the bass up in Amarra for my HD600s.  I have it sllowly ramping up starting from about 350 Hz to +2db by 180Hz, and then flat +2db from about 180 Hz to 20 Hz.  This adds just enough of the missing low end presence to my modded HD600.  But, now, with the same EQ and the new power cords, the bass is clipping, and I've had to adjust the gain to -1.  It sure sounds like there's more immediacy in the mids too... and unless I'm imagining it, soundstage has been negatively impacted.  I definitely need to swap back and try again the old cords.  But, any thoughts here?
  
 BTW, why do I share this in the ZOTL thread?  Simply because it's a lot more active than the ZDS thread.


----------



## doctorjazz

Which brings up the upcoming ZOTL LPS! Looking forward to hearing it, maybe a review...


----------



## willsw

doctorjazz said:


> Which brings up the upcoming ZOTL LPS! Looking forward to hearing it, maybe a review...


 
  
 Nice transition! The LPS won't be shipping out as quickly as we hoped due to a miscommunication with the case fabricator (hello, more scrap), but when they are shipped out they'll be smaller than what you saw at the Philly meet. Everyone likes smaller, right? And since pretty much everyone with a MicroZOTL2.0 at least wonders what difference a linear power supply will make, once they're ready to ship, ship immediately several will, and hopefully impressions appear quickly after that.


----------



## zachawry

Has anyone spent time with both the ZOTL2 and the Mjolnir 2? I'd love to hear any comparisons.


----------



## hrq12345

zachawry said:


> Has anyone spent time with both the ZOTL2 and the Mjolnir 2? I'd love to hear any comparisons.


 
 I used to own the Mjolnir 2 and bought a ZOTL 2 about two weeks ago. I put my Mjolnir 2 on sale the day after I got the ZOTL2. But I didn't pair the Mjolnir 2 with a balanced DAC, which might be a game changer.
  
 Between Mjolnir 2 and ZOTL 2 on the SE output, it took me one song's time to decide that ZOTL2 is better. But again, Mjolnir 2 might be better if you are going balanced.


----------



## zachawry

hrq12345 said:


> I used to own the Mjolnir 2 and bought a ZOTL 2 about two weeks ago. I put my Mjolnir 2 on sale the day after I got the ZOTL2. But I didn't pair the Mjolnir 2 with a balanced DAC, which might be a game changer.
> 
> Between Mjolnir 2 and ZOTL 2 on the SE output, it took me one song's time to decide that ZOTL2 is better. But again, Mjolnir 2 might be better if you are going balanced.


 

 Thanks for your input. 
  
 I have a SE DAC (Hugo), but the MJ2 converts SE input to balanced, so it shouldn't matter that much, should it? 
  
 Z


----------



## zachawry

Never mind. I know the answer to my own question. I asked Schiit about that very thing a while ago, and their response was "The Mjolnir 2 is fully balanced even from a single ended source."
  
 So, it shouldn't matter.


----------



## hrq12345

zachawry said:


> Never mind. I know the answer to my own question. I asked Schiit about that very thing a while ago, and their response was "The Mjolnir 2 is fully balanced even from a single ended source."
> 
> So, it shouldn't matter.


 
 Yes it can go balanced from single input, but it sounds better with fully balanced setup, according to my friend who owns gumby and Mjolnir 2.


----------



## jelt2359

That's probably because gumby sounds better from its balanced output. 

This is obviously not the case for the Hugo..


----------



## zachawry

Probably a stupid question, but I can't find the info anywhere....That's a 1/4" headphone jack, right? 
  
 It kind of looks like it's 1/8" inch, but I can't imagine that's right. And the info isn't anywhere I can spot it.
  
 Thx.


----------



## saidentary

adamaley said:


> Lol, well this is the first time a troll appears to have provided some enlightenment. Like I said, I have no horse in the race. I'll get to listen to this amp at the ChiUnifi meet this coming weekend. Since it's a meet, I'll still not feel I am warranted to comment on its sound conclusively, let alone call its mere existence a 'lie' and its design statement a 'misdirection'. Oh, and all the people who have listened to it and given impressions, idiots. Anyway, it will be great to have this thread move on in its original direction. Sorry for feeding the troll. It appears they win no matter what you do.


 
 I wish I could go to the meet and let you listen to my unit with the HE-1000s.  But Zach from ZMF will be there and he plans to bring his MicroZOTL 2.  He also has a cool Decware something or other and another very good amp.  Plus I think he's bringing some "surprise" amp as well (not sure about that).  By the way, whether or not you're in the market for headphones, I'd strongly recommend giving the ZMF headphones a listen.  I was VERY impressed with them, and I'm not alone.  Zach of ZMF is the real deal, imo.


----------



## saidentary

zachawry said:


> Probably a stupid question, but I can't find the info anywhere....That's a 1/4" headphone jack, right?
> 
> It kind of looks like it's 1/8" inch, but I can't imagine that's right. And the info isn't anywhere I can spot it.
> 
> Thx.


 

 The only stupid question is the one you don't ask.  You are correct that the MicroZOTL 2 has a 1/4" headphone jack.


----------



## zachawry

saidentary said:


> The only stupid question is the one you don't ask.  You are correct that the MicroZOTL 2 has a 1/4" headphone jack.


 

 I see you don't have kids. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Thanks. Will probably be getting one soon. May or may not save up to get one of the higher Cavalli amps. All depends on how long I decide I can wait before satisfying my gear lust demon.


----------



## doctorjazz

The nature of GEAR LUST DEMONS is that you can satisfy them FOR A WHILE, then they will rise up again and demand mo'/betta' gear. Just the way it is...


----------



## jelt2359

doctorjazz said:


> The nature of GEAR LUST DEMONS is that you can satisfy them FOR A WHILE, then they will rise up again and demand mo'/betta' gear. Just the way it is...




So next up, the ZLPS for you?


----------



## doctorjazz

ZLPS?


----------



## zachawry

ZL Power Supply, I imagine....


----------



## adamaley

saidentary said:


> I wish I could go to the meet and let you listen to my unit with the HE-1000s.  But Zach from ZMF will be there and he plans to bring his MicroZOTL 2.  He also has a cool Decware something or other and another very good amp.  Plus I think he's bringing some "surprise" amp as well (not sure about that).  By the way, whether or not you're in the market for headphones, I'd strongly recommend giving the ZMF headphones a listen.  I was VERY impressed with them, and I'm not alone.  Zach of ZMF is the real deal, imo.


 
 Thanks for the thought. I'm excited to hear Zach's MicroZOTL2. As a matter of fact, I'm also interested in a closed headphone for work/office, so the ZMF headphones will surely be well scrutinized during the meet.


----------



## zachawry

Has anyone tried the ZOTL2 as well as the WA22? There's one for sale in the used forums for about the price of a Z+power supply.
  
 Really wish I could actually listen to these things before-hand, but these products don't appear to exist in Japan....


----------



## bazelio

zachawry said:


> Has anyone tried the ZOTL2 as well as the WA22? There's one for sale in the used forums for about the price of a Z+power supply.
> 
> Really wish I could actually listen to these things before-hand, but these products don't appear to exist in Japan....




No but I'm almost certain the Woo will have a warmer/tubey sound while the MZ2 will have a modern/neutral tube sound.


----------



## zachawry

bazelio said:


> No but I'm almost certain the Woo will have a warmer/tubey sound while the MZ2 will have a modern/neutral tube sound.


 

 Yeah, I kinda imagined that as well. But apart from the warmer/neutral axis, there must surely be a pure "sound quality" axis. I wonder if they are approximately equal in terms of sound quality.


----------



## doctorjazz

Hard to do good comparisons at a meet, and I may not be objective, but I didn't hear any amp at the Philadelphia meet that I liked better than my ZOTL. Just sayin...


----------



## bazelio

zachawry said:


> bazelio said:
> 
> 
> > No but I'm almost certain the Woo will have a warmer/tubey sound while the MZ2 will have a modern/neutral tube sound.
> ...


 
  
 The sound signature is a big part of "sound quality".    I think the Woo tends to be less detailed and the MZ2 tends to be more precise.  It's really a personal preference.  MZ2 might be considered as solid-state-like by some.


----------



## donlin

bazelio said:


> The sound signature is a big part of "sound quality".    I think the Woo tends to be less detailed and the MZ2 tends to be more precise.  It's really a personal preference.  MZ2 might be considered as solid-state-like by some.


 

 I agree with this.  The treble in the MZ2 is cleaner and more detailed than any of the solid state amps I have.


----------



## doctorjazz

Less Detailed, less open, at least from my listening. I generally think of the ZOTL as solid state goodness without the solid state "haze", open, natural sound, none of the nasties.


----------



## jamato8

I understand the analogy to SS and tube, since I have used both for years. To me the micro strikes a balance and I hear neither but for me what happens is it comes out as Music. :^)


----------



## zachawry

All of these answers are why I basically decided overnight (here in Japan) to go with the MZOTL2. Definitely. No changes. Then I turn on my computer, and see that I can get a Liquid Glass for a discount. Mmmmmm.... Now I'm back in the throws of uncertainty. 
  
 I should use one of those web blockers to prevent me from ever accessing this site again. I'd probably end up enjoying my music more. 
  
 That's exactly what I'll do, right after I buy either the MZ or the LG......


----------



## jelt2359

The prices between those two are so different!


----------



## zachawry

Well, yes and no. 11 hundred for the Z, but closer to 2 thousand with power supply, which I'd eventually cave in and purchase. The Glass is down from 35 hundred to 29 hundred with my Carbon discount, so in the end it's a difference of about a thousand dollars. Given that's a lot of money, but since the Glass is basically TOTL, I wouldn't be tempted by any further amp purchases. I'd also be selling my Carbon to get the Glass, where I wouldn't with the Z, so they are closer than they appear....


----------



## jelt2359

I'm not sure the carbon and liquid glass sound so much alike. I hear what you're saying though I think if you're looking for an endgamer tube amp neither of these are what people may typically consider...

At this price you can also consider the dragon inspire iha-1 by Dennis Had.


----------



## doctorjazz

I can't speak to the sound of the higher Cavalli amps, but...
The cheapest of the bunch, after the $599 discount, is about $2400. That's for the Liquid Crimson. Up to $4400 for the Liquid Lightning Tube. I don't know how they compare, and it is a nice discount, but they are not inexpensive...
Anyone heard and compared?


----------



## zachawry

doctorjazz said:


> I can't speak to the sound of the higher Cavalli amps, but...
> The cheapest of the bunch, after the $599 discount, is about $2400. That's for the Liquid Crimson. Up to $4400 for the Liquid Lightning Tube. I don't know how they compare, and it is a nice discount, but they are not inexpensive...
> Anyone heard and compared?


 

 I'm sure that diminishing returns is going to rear its ugly head. I really want a tube amp, though, so it's either the ZOTL or the Glass. If I were to ever get the Glass, now is the time, because I can take advantage of the discount. Which is of course exactly what their sales strategy is, but that don't mean it ain't tempting!


----------



## doctorjazz

As far as LPS goes, I believe the ZOTL folks are releasing one soon for a bit less, maybe the $600 ballpark. But, who knows, the Liquid Glass may be the ultimate...or not, I sure don't know..


----------



## bazelio

Just get an EC Studio Jr and call it a day, and a life.


----------



## willsw

zachawry said:


> Well, yes and no. 11 hundred for the Z, but closer to 2 thousand with power supply, which I'd eventually cave in and purchase.


 
  
 I'll just chime in to say that if you already have a MicroZOTL when the power supplies become available in March they're discounted to you, putting the total price at $1500, which I suppose is closer to $2000 than to $0. I guess you could save money if you're going to be rolling tubes, as the Glass only has two . . . though those two can be so many different tubes. 
  
 May your heart of hearts guide you in this amplification quest.


----------



## jelt2359

bazelio said:


> Just get an EC Studio Jr and call it a day, and a life.




DNA Stellaris looks interesting too.


----------



## zachawry

willsw said:


> I'll just chime in to say that if you already have a MicroZOTL when the power supplies become available in March they're discounted to you, putting the total price at $1500, which I suppose is closer to $2000 than to $0. I guess you could save money if you're going to be rolling tubes, as the Glass only has two . . . though those two can be so many different tubes.
> 
> May your heart of hearts guide you in this amplification quest.


 

 My heart of hearts wants everything. My heart of hearts belongs in an iron cage in the dungeon.


----------



## zachawry

One more question about the MZ: It's a full tube design, not a hybrid, right?


----------



## willsw

zachawry said:


> One more question about the MZ: It's a full tube design, not a hybrid, right?


 
  
 It is a tube amp through and through. 
  
 Edit: it is the unique ZOTL topology that results in a more precise, "less tubey," sound, not hybridity.


----------



## jamato8

The Zotl micro is in the elite club. Elite sound for a price that will normally not buy you an elite amp. I have heard amps for years and built my own and I will say, there isn't much to do about improving the sound unless you go sideways for a different sound.


----------



## doctorjazz

I can't say I've heard all the high priced amps out there, not even many of them, but the ones I have heard haven't made me want to "upgrade" my ZOTL so far...


----------



## nephilim

My mZOTL is coming - probably next week. I tested it a few weeks back and was extremely pleased. As somebody described it over here, other amps sound compressed compared to the ZOTL. Background is absolutely pitch black - the quietest I have ever heard. My only criticism is that sibilants tend to be a bit harsh with the HD800 and the opposite end (sub-bass) is a bit thin, but I guess a good power supply and some tube rolling will help. I ordered it with the SBooster power supply.
  
 I just realised I have written this already weeks ago. Will post impression once I have tested some alternative tubes


----------



## doctorjazz

Have tried 2 sets of "NOS" tubes, so far, back to the stock Sovtek...


----------



## zach915m

ZOTL will be at the Chicago Head-Fi meet tomorrow, anyone who is in the area feel free to stop by and check it out with the ZMF's and anything else you want to throw at it.
  
 Meet details are on the front page of head fi right now.


----------



## donlin

doctorjazz said:


> Have tried 2 sets of "NOS" tubes, so far, back to the stock Sovtek...



The current Russian tubes sound very good, I haven't had much of a desire to try anything else.


----------



## doctorjazz

The other tubes had a somewhat richer sound, but sacrificed the wonderful openness and detail the ZOTL is capable of, went back.


----------



## bazelio

doctorjazz said:


> The other tubes had a somewhat richer sound, but sacrificed the wonderful openness and detail the ZOTL is capable of, went back.


 
  
  
 That's extremely surprising.  Any old stock American tube should sound better than the Russian tubes shipped with the ZOTL.  RCA tubes should be very noticeably more detailed for sure.


----------



## doctorjazz

bazelio said:


> doctorjazz said:
> 
> 
> > The other tubes had a somewhat richer sound, but sacrificed the wonderful openness and detail the ZOTL is capable of, went back.
> ...




Not my experience so far, though the RCA did give more "tubey" flavor. Had them in for a couple of days, may need more burn in (changed them for the Philly area meet), may give them another try, but that is how I heard them so far...


----------



## donlin

I tried my WWII vintage sylvania metal base 6SN7's and Gold Brand 12AT7's and can't honestly say they were any better.


----------



## svmusa

doctorjazz said:


> Not my experience so far, though the RCA did give more "tubey" flavor. Had them in for a couple of days, may need more burn in (changed them for the Philly area meet), may give them another try, but that is how I heard them so far...




My NOS Kenrad and Sylvania 5692 are noteworthy upgrade over stock.


----------



## bazelio

svmusa said:


> doctorjazz said:
> 
> 
> > Not my experience so far, though the RCA did give more "tubey" flavor. Had them in for a couple of days, may need more burn in (changed them for the Philly area meet), may give them another try, but that is how I heard them so far...
> ...


 
  
  
 I would be stunned if they were not.  The stock tubes are very meh.


----------



## saidentary

zachawry said:


> Well, yes and no. 11 hundred for the Z, but closer to 2 thousand with power supply, which I'd eventually cave in and purchase. The Glass is down from 35 hundred to 29 hundred with my Carbon discount, so in the end it's a difference of about a thousand dollars. Given that's a lot of money, but since the Glass is basically TOTL, I wouldn't be tempted by any further amp purchases. I'd also be selling my Carbon to get the Glass, where I wouldn't with the Z, so they are closer than they appear....


 

 Is there any way for you to audition the two side by side?  If so, that would be the best way to answer your question.  If you could figure out a way to do it, it would be even better for you to volume match the two amps and then listen to them without knowing which is which (i.e., blinded).  Obviously this would require help from a friend who could switch back and forth between the amps on the same source material with you not looking.


----------



## bazelio

saidentary said:


> zachawry said:
> 
> 
> > Well, yes and no. 11 hundred for the Z, but closer to 2 thousand with power supply, which I'd eventually cave in and purchase. The Glass is down from 35 hundred to 29 hundred with my Carbon discount, so in the end it's a difference of about a thousand dollars. Given that's a lot of money, but since the Glass is basically TOTL, I wouldn't be tempted by any further amp purchases. I'd also be selling my Carbon to get the Glass, where I wouldn't with the Z, so they are closer than they appear....
> ...




From ears that I trust, a high quality LPS yields a significant improvement with the MZ2. But it puts you out another 1k.


----------



## Audio Addict

zach915m said:


> ZOTL will be at the Chicago Head-Fi meet tomorrow, anyone who is int he area feel free to stop by and check it out with the ZMF's and anything else you want to throw at it.
> 
> Meet details are on the front page of head fi right now.




@zach915m Is the special amp any relation?


----------



## willsw

audio addict said:


> @zach915m Is the special amp any relation?


 
  
 I know he's also got a beautiful Decware that certainly qualifies as special, though as a week ago was the first time I met Zach, I don't know how long that has been appearing at shows. Should have spent more time with that thing. Between that amp, his Sylvania equipped MicroZOTL2, and the Yggy behind them, plus whatever else he'll bring, plus, of course, all of those ZMF headphones, everyone going to the Chicago meet should plan on some healthy minutes spent at the ZMF table.


----------



## buson160man

If the microzotl-2 is that good imagine the zotl 10 with 10 watts per channel 10 times the power .


----------



## willsw

buson160man said:


> If the microzotl-2 is that good imagine the zotl 10 with 10 watts per channel 10 times the power .




That is fun to imagine, and we did, but since the ZOTL10 is class AB and was designed to power speakers, it actually ends up with about the same power output by the time you get to headphone impedances. That's not to say there aren't ideas floating around Linear Tube Audio. Also, I really need to update the photos on the website - there is no headphone jack on the ZOTL10.


----------



## zach915m

audio addict said:


> @zach915m Is the special amp any relation?


 

 No special amp unfortunately.  JUST THE ZOTL!!!! =)  Hahha jkjk


----------



## Audio Addict

Curious if anyone has compared to the two finished colors, Black and Midnight Blue?  How different is the Midnight Blue from the Black or does that really mean it is just one color and its a matter of the light hitting the case?


----------



## donlin

I've been enjoying this combo so much just thought I'd post a photo.


----------



## jamato8

donlin said:


> I've been enjoying this combo so much just thought I'd post a photo.


 
 Hey! You got my PS, oh, here mine is. Nice weight to the Mojo Audio supply.


----------



## zachawry

jamato8 said:


> Hey! You got my PS, oh, here mine is. Nice weight to the Mojo Audio supply.


 

 That's the PS!? I thought it was a DAC. Dang, that's substantial.


----------



## jamato8

zachawry said:


> That's the PS!? I thought it was a DAC. Dang, that's substantial.


 

 It is a lot heavier than most any dac. :^) Yes, it is substantial. I have some Edition X coming also.


----------



## nephilim

audio addict said:


> Curious if anyone has compared to the two finished colors, Black and Midnight Blue?  How different is the Midnight Blue from the Black or does that really mean it is just one color and its a matter of the light hitting the case?


 

 I was wondering as well... The ZOTL I borrowed looked black to me but I learned that it actually was the midnight blue color. In this photo you can see the difference between the (presumably midnight blue) front cover and the black volume knob


----------



## dpump

nephilim said:


> I was wondering as well... The ZOTL I borrowed looked black to me but I learned that it actually was the midnight blue color. In this photo you can see the difference between the (presumably midnight blue) front cover and the black volume knob
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## bazelio

Just ordered my very own Micro ZOTL2.  
  
 Looking forward to the MZ2 + ETHER-C combo at work any day now!


----------



## zachawry

bazelio said:


> Just ordered my very own Micro ZOTL2.
> 
> Looking forward to the MZ2 + ETHER-C combo at work any day now!


 

 Please let me know what you think! I've got some Ethers I want to use on the MZ. 
  
 I was leaning towards the Liquid Glass, but it's hard to believe it's good enough over the MZ to pay twice the price and wait 6 months....


----------



## zachawry

OK, I just ordered, too! I wonder if mine will be the first in Japan.
  
 Since I chose this over the twice-as-expensive Liquid Glass, I am feeling incredibly frugal and responsible. 
  
 Now what are some good tubes I can blow a lot of money on? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Seriously, this is my first tube amp, so I'm not even sure which kind of tube to switch out first, the driver or the, er, other one. The co-pilot tube?


----------



## zachawry

Also, is there some definitive list of tube types compatible with the MZ2? 
  
 Especially for tube newbies, this would be really, super useful.


----------



## donlin

zachawry said:


> Please let me know what you think! I've got some Ethers I want to use on the MZ.
> 
> I was leaning towards the Liquid Glass, but it's hard to believe it's good enough over the MZ to pay twice the price and wait 6 months....



The money is one thing but the ridiculously long wait is a deal breaker for me. Life is too short.


----------



## willsw

zachawry said:


> Also, is there some definitive list of tube types compatible with the MZ2?
> 
> Especially for tube newbies, this would be really, super useful.


 
  
 I don't know if we'll ever manage a _definitive_ list, but we are working on creating an easy to refer to chart of tubes and the experiences people have had with those tubes with their original Berning MicroZOTL or LTA MicroZOTL2 (as it's the same board). A good thread to read would be this one: http://www.head-fi.org/t/8494/microzotl-tube-rolling-thread
  
 So, be sure to post any results you get in your own experiments!


----------



## zachawry

willsw said:


> I don't know if we'll ever manage a _definitive_ list, but we are working on creating an easy to refer to chart of tubes and the experiences people have had with those tubes with their original Berning MicroZOTL or LTA MicroZOTL2 (as it's the same board). A good thread to read would be this one: http://www.head-fi.org/t/8494/microzotl-tube-rolling-thread
> 
> So, be sure to post any results you get in your own experiments!


 

 I don't need all the specific tubes, just the TYPES. Like, 6SN7 and 12AT7. Is that it? Are those the two basic types? 
  
 Out of curiosity, what are the different functions of the two different types? Power and driver, is it? 
  
 Is there one that is more important for sound, and should be upgraded first? 
  
 Thx.


----------



## zachawry

donlin said:


> The money is one thing but the ridiculously long wait is a deal breaker for me. Life is too short.


 

 Agree totally. I could have swung the money (though it would have hurt). But money and wait more than half a year? No thanks.


----------



## willsw

zachawry said:


> I don't need all the specific tubes, just the TYPES. Like, 6SN7 and 12AT7. Is that it? Are those the two basic types?
> 
> Out of curiosity, what are the different functions of the two different types? Power and driver, is it?
> 
> ...


 
  
 Ah, yes, those are the two types of tubes in the MicroZOTL2. You'll find that there are model numbers that are equivalent to these as you get into older tubes. There are also model numbers that are arguably equivalent, but I don't know enough about tubes (I'm the guy who writes on forums more than knows the engineering side of things) to recommend these. It seems that most people say that changing the 12AT7s make the most difference in sound, so if you were only to change one pair, I'd go with those.


----------



## zachawry

jamato8 said:


> I got some CV4024, a 12AT7. Excellent sound. Extremely natural and seems to put all the notes in the right place. Male and female voice is portrayed very well. Slightly warmer sounding compared to the Sylvania Gold Brand gold pin but not tube warm, just very full and transparent so the slightly warmer sound doesn't mask this.
> 
> edit: I just put in some Tung-sol tall glass slanted plates, 6SN7GTB. In this setup it is excellent. A little more distance from the sound and the imaging is excellent with a wide soundstage and good layering with space between everything.


 

 I'm trying to get a handle on all this stuff....
  
 By the Tung-sol 6SN7GTB, do you mean this:
 http://www.upscaleaudio.com/6sn7-5692-cv1988-vt-231-6n8-6h8/tung-sol-6sn7gtb/
  
 By the CV4024, do you mean this:
 http://www.upscaleaudio.com/12at7-ecc81-6201-cv4024/mullard-cv4024-12at7/
  
 Thanks!
 Zachary


----------



## doctorjazz

I am also a tube novice, have been told the 6SN7 is the tube that would make the most difference in the sound and would be the one to upgrade (again, just what I've been told, know nothing on my own). I did try 2 pairs of NOS tubes, as I've mentioned previously, and it did change the sound, but change and improve are not the same thing. One pair was RCA (have the exact #s at home), and it did some things better than the stock (richer, more tube-like), but lost some from the stock as well (not as open, detailed, the space that is a great feature of the ZOTL was decreased). I went back to the stock for a meet, but probably change back again, give it more burn in time. 
Some have disagreed with me on this, but that is how it sounded to me so far...just learning myself.


----------



## bazelio

doctorjazz said:


> I am also a tube novice, have been told the 6SN7 is the tube that would make the most difference in the sound and would be the one to upgrade (again, just what I've been told, know nothing on my own). I did try 2 pairs of NOS tubes, as I've mentioned previously, and it did change the sound, but change and improve are not the same thing. One pair was RCA (have the exact #s at home), and it did some things better than the stock (richer, more tube-like), but lost some from the stock as well (not as open, detailed, the space that is a great feature of the ZOTL was decreased). I went back to the stock for a meet, but probably change back again, give it more burn in time.
> Some have disagreed with me on this, but that is how it sounded to me so far...just learning myself.


 
  
 When you create warmth in the mids (though I'm surprised the RCA would be warm) and the lows, it effectively presents as a more forward sound and appears to decrease the soundstage.  I think it's somewhat "in your mind" so to speak ...  like when you stare at one of those dot images long enough and you start seeing giraffes and xylophones.    Nevertheless we all have our preferences, and I recently experienced a negative impact from a power cord swap for this same reason.  You mentioned a richer sound from the RCAs.  And that correlates with your soundstage observation...  The larger soundstage would typically come with a thinner sound, in general.
  
 The thing with the Tungsols, though, is they tend to smear the mids to a certain degree.  The old stock American tubes are going to resolve better.  But... again... personal preference reigns king.


----------



## doctorjazz

Could certainly be in my head (?ears), but that was my impression after having them in for about 5 days. Of course, being a true audionerd, I want it ALL!!! Is there a tube out there that does the richness thing without decreasing the soundstage/open thing? (that doesn't cost $500-1K a pair)? (already spent almost $200 on my tube experiments, guessing one just has to pay dues...)


When you create warmth in the mids (though I'm surprised the RCA would be warm) and the lows, it effectively presents as a more forward sound and appears to decrease the soundstage.  I think it's somewhat "in your mind" so to speak ...  like when you stare at one of those dot images long enough and you start seeing giraffes and xylophones.    Nevertheless we all have our preferences, and I recently experienced a negative impact from a power cord swap for this same reason.  You mentioned a richer sound from the RCAs.  And that correlates with your soundstage observation...  The larger soundstage would typically come with a thinner sound, in general.

The thing with the Tungsols, though, is they tend to smear the mids to a certain degree.  The old stock American tubes are going to resolve better.  But... again... personal preference reigns king.
[/quote]


----------



## jamato8

I have always found the biggest influence on sound is the input tube. The power tube is second in my experience and that of most amp builders. They obviously are both important but due to the nature of amplification, the sound of the input tube will change the character of the sound more.


----------



## zachawry

OK, here's another question. I've been looking at specialized tube stores in the US (upscaleaudio.com, tubedepot.com, etc.), but now I see that many of these same tubes are on sale from the manufacturer (not NOS) for the same price here in Japan at Amazon. But they aren't "matched."
  
 Is it worth the extra price to get stuff shipped from the US to have them matched? Does it really matter? 
  
 Thx.


----------



## bazelio

zachawry said:


> OK, here's another question. I've been looking at specialized tube stores in the US (upscaleaudio.com, tubedepot.com, etc.), but now I see that many of these same tubes are on sale from the manufacturer (not NOS) for the same price here in Japan at Amazon. But they aren't "matched."
> 
> Is it worth the extra price to get stuff shipped from the US to have them matched? Does it really matter?
> 
> Thx.


 
  
  
 Yeah, matched within 10% is worthwhile, IMO.


----------



## jamato8

zachawry said:


> OK, here's another question. I've been looking at specialized tube stores in the US (upscaleaudio.com, tubedepot.com, etc.), but now I see that many of these same tubes are on sale from the manufacturer (not NOS) for the same price here in Japan at Amazon. But they aren't "matched."
> 
> Is it worth the extra price to get stuff shipped from the US to have them matched? Does it really matter?
> 
> Thx.


 

 I have bought from Upscale and paid for the matching. I then checked them when i got them and they weren't matched all that well and though they were platinum grade, they were also noisy. You don't know for sure and to be honest most of the time except for phono applications, matching isn't all that important. IMO. 
  
 Now on power tubes, matching and burn in and then rematching is important but not many do this and seldom can you trust a manufacture of tubes to really do this, even when they say they are matched.


----------



## zachawry

So much new information to process. Gotta get a degree in electrical engineering and then come back...


----------



## doctorjazz

So, who has a 12At7 recommendation? The Mullards mentioned above?


----------



## bazelio

doctorjazz said:


> So, who has a 12At7 recommendation? The Mullards mentioned above?


 
  
  
 GEC A2900.


----------



## doctorjazz

bazelio said:


> doctorjazz said:
> 
> 
> > So, who has a 12At7 recommendation? The Mullards mentioned above?
> ...




Looking into these, not inexpensive...$3-400 a pair seems to be what I'm finding them for. 
Know anything about these?

http://www.upscaleaudio.com/12at7-ecc81-6201-cv4024/mullard-ecc81-12at7-1960-s-vintage/

or maybe I see Mullard 6201 at somewhat less...


----------



## bazelio

@doctorjazz
  
 Yeah, the A2900s have practically become unobtainium.  I think my second choice would be the Telefunken ECC801S, an extremely transparent tube with low noise floor.


----------



## zachawry

bazelio said:


> @doctorjazz
> 
> Yeah, the A2900s have practically become unobtainium.  I think my second choice would be the Telefunken ECC801S, an extremely transparent tube with low noise floor.


 

 Holy cow, those Telefunkens are $700/pair. They are called "diamond bottom," apparently. Are there actual diamonds on the bottom?


----------



## bazelio

Nah, you can find them for less than 50% of that.


----------



## zachawry

bazelio said:


> Nah, you can find them for less than 50% of that.


 

 Yeah, you're right. I found them for $300/pair on further looking.


----------



## doctorjazz

Looks like $300-$400 for a pair of tubes is what we're talking about, huh? Small price to pay for audio nirvana, I suppose, but I hesitate a bit having just spent $200 on 2 pairs that, so far, haven't done it for me. Seems it's a bit hit or miss in the tube business. (maybe I would have been better off going whole hog to begin with, who knows?)


----------



## donlin

doctorjazz said:


> Looks like $300-$400 for a pair of tubes is what we're talking about, huh? Small price to pay for audio nirvana, I suppose, but I hesitate a bit having just spent $200 on 2 pairs that, so far, haven't done it for me. *Seems it's a bit hit or miss in the tube business.* (maybe I would have been better off going whole hog to begin with, who knows?)


 
 You said it!  I'm certainly no tube expert but have dabbled quite a bit over the years and there seems to be even more of a range of contradictory opinions on the characteristics of various tubes than there are about headphones.  It can turn into a never ending project, but if you enjoy that kind of thing go for it.  In my own experience, the current tubes are very good.  I think a lot of the bad rap they have is based on the Chinese tubes of 20-30 years ago that were truly horrible.


----------



## doctorjazz

I haven't compared the ZOTL tubes to anything other than the 2 sets of 6SN7s I recently got (NOS and all that), so far, RCA version better in some ways, not as good in others, went back to the stock tubes for now.


----------



## bazelio

doctorjazz said:


> I haven't compared the ZOTL tubes to anything other than the 2 sets of 6SN7s I recently got (NOS and all that), so far, RCA version better in some ways, not as good in others, went back to the stock tubes for now.


 
  
 That's one reason to avoid tube amps... to avoid wasting money on tubes.    You're not going to like the sound of every tube you buy.
  
 If you shy away from the more spendy options, which is not a bad idea, then I think there are Sylvanias, GE, and Raytheons worthy of consideration.  I think several pages back theres a Sylvania recommendation.  The Mullards might be good too.  I'm not sure.


----------



## doctorjazz

Ok, thanks for the input!


----------



## hrq12345

Why not save the money for tubes and buy a better power cord


----------



## donlin

hrq12345 said:


> Why not save the money for tubes and buy a better power cord



A statement like that could get you killed on some threads around here.


----------



## doctorjazz

Or, as they say in the commercial, "porque no los dos?"


----------



## doctorjazz

(Will be getting the ZOTL LPS).


----------



## nephilim

Received my ZOTL & SBooster PSU yesterday. Today the Siemens E81CC (trimica) arrived and went directly into the amp. Will give it some time to burn in but for the moment I am really happy!


----------



## doctorjazz

Put in an order for the Siemens tubes, see how it goes when I get them.


----------



## zachawry

doctorjazz said:


> Put in an order for the Siemens tubes, see how it goes when I get them.


 

 Can I ask where you ordered them? 
  
 They're $175 each here:
 http://www.nosvacuumtubes.net/product/siemens-e81cc-ecc801s/
  
 But only $60 each here:
 http://www.tubemonger.com/Siemens_Halske_1966_3_MICA_E81CC_Munich_ECC81_p/175.htm
  
  
 I ordered some new Genalex Gold Lion 12AT7s because they were on Amazon and I had a gift certificate. I hope it wasn't wasted money....


----------



## doctorjazz

zachawry said:


> doctorjazz said:
> 
> 
> > Put in an order for the Siemens tubes, see how it goes when I get them.
> ...




Thanks...I actually had ordered from the same dealer as you did, but for more than you paid. I contacted them and changed to the $60 per tube at their site.


----------



## nephilim

I know that the tubes might need some time but I felt that the current setup is a bit too bright and could benefit from a tad more "slam", so I removed the Tung-Sol 6SN7 and put in my Mullard ECC31 (fed from external power supply because of the higher heater current). Works flawlessly with tamed treble (welcome with my HD800) and a bit more emphasis on the low frequencies. Will try the 6BL7 and FDD20 next. Unfortunately my beloved C3gS did not work - probably due to the adapter I use. There is some music coming through but just very faint.


----------



## kiertijai

_I know that the tubes might need some time but I felt that the current setup is a bit too bright and could benefit from a tad more "slam", so I removed the Tung-Sol 6SN7 and put in my Mullard ECC31 (fed from external power supply because of the higher heater current). Works flawlessly with tamed treble (welcome with my HD800) and a bit more emphasis on the low frequencies_
  
   Can we use the Mullard ECC31 here?  I think it is different than the other 6SN7
 or is it OK to use with external power supply such as mojo V?


----------



## donlin

kiertijai said:


> _I know that the tubes might need some time but I felt that the current setup is a bit too bright and could benefit from a tad more "slam", so I removed the Tung-Sol 6SN7 and put in my Mullard ECC31 (fed from external power supply because of the higher heater current). Works flawlessly with tamed treble (welcome with my HD800) and a bit more emphasis on the low frequencies_
> 
> Can we use the Mullard ECC31 here?  I think it is different than the other 6SN7
> or is it OK to use with external power supply such as mojo V?


 

 Personally, I'd stick with the specified tubes.


----------



## nephilim

First you need ECC31 to 6SN7 adapters. The next issue is that the Mullards draw 0.9A each. The ZOTL's fuse blows at 2.5A. You have to add at least the 12AT7's current times 2. It might work if you replace the ZOTL's fuse but that would probably stretch the limits (and void the guarantee, I would assume). So I would strongly recommend an external supply.
  
 The following octal socket savers have wires for the heater pins and work like a charm:
  
http://www.ebay.de/itm/191741357847
  
 And here are the ECC31 > 6SN7 adapters:
  
http://www.ebay.de/itm/201134198992
  
 These will also work for 6N7G tubes.
  
 Here is a quick photo showing the ECC31 in action. The switching power supply on the left provides the heater current


----------



## hrq12345

Got a pair of these 12AT7 tubes. Just put them in and found some better bass impact immediately. More impressions to come.


----------



## kiertijai

_First you need ECC31 to 6SN7 adapters. The next issue is that the Mullards draw 0.9A each. The ZOTL's fuse blows at 2.5A. You have to add at least the 12AT7's current times 2. It might work if you replace the ZOTL's fuse but that would probably stretch the limits (and void the guarantee, I would assume). So I would strongly recommend an external supply._
  Is it better that we use Mullard ECC32?


----------



## nephilim

kiertijai said:


> Is it better that we use Mullard ECC32?


 
  
 If you can afford it. It is much more expensive so it must be better 
  
 Seriously, it all depends on personal preferences. In my previous amp I quickly realized that I was not too fond of the TungSol 6SN7 (albeit I guess I understand why manufactures prefer to use them as stock tubes) and tried various other tubes. With the ZOTL I am now very curious to see how these tubes will perform in the new amp. The ECC31 are a very promising start. But obviously I cannot say that a certain tube works better or worse for you.


----------



## zachawry

In my obsessive researching of tubes over the past week, before my MZOTL2 even arrives, it seems that there are a lot more options available for 12AT7 than 6SN7. 
  
 Is this true? I guess given the fact that the 12AT7s are supposed to have a larger effect on the sound, this is OK, but it's still curious.


----------



## jamato8

zachawry said:


> In my obsessive researching of tubes over the past week, before my MZOTL2 even arrives, it seems that there are a lot more options available for 12AT7 than 6SN7.
> 
> Is this true? I guess given the fact that the 12AT7s are supposed to have a larger effect on the sound, this is OK, but it's still curious.


 

 The 6SN7 was a tube that was used in many applications and in great numbers. There are a huge variety of 6SN7's available. There are also a number of 12AT7's but I would bet there were more 6SN7 types. I use the VT99 with an adapter that uses a grid cap.


----------



## willsw

zachawry said:


> In my obsessive researching of tubes over the past week, before my MZOTL2 even arrives, it seems that there are a lot more options available for 12AT7 than 6SN7.
> 
> Is this true? I guess given the fact that the 12AT7s are supposed to have a larger effect on the sound, this is OK, but it's still curious.


 
  
 I've noticed this as well. Perhaps is just that the 6SN7 variants have significantly different names and are slightly different enough to require such tube-wizardry as displayed by nephilim. I have no idea, really. 
  
 I will say that though I understand the urge to immediately switch tubes, one could imagine that we shipped the units with stock Sovteks, or any number of new stock tubes, and that you may eventually consider the new manufacture Tung-Sols as an option. We unfortunately don't have the facilities to ship each unit fully burned in (that is definitely a future goal), and many have been very happy with the stock amp, so I might suggest listening to the amp as the Tung-Sols burn in, think about which aspects of the sound you'd like to push, and then start rolling. This may be too logical and I may be revealing myself as _obviously_ not a tube-roller.


----------



## zachawry

willsw said:


> I've noticed this as well. Perhaps is just that the 6SN7 variants have significantly different names and are slightly different enough to require such tube-wizardry as displayed by nephilim. I have no idea, really.
> 
> I will say that though I understand the urge to immediately switch tubes, one could imagine that we shipped the units with stock Sovteks, or any number of new stock tubes, and that you may eventually consider the new manufacture Tung-Sols as an option. We unfortunately don't have the facilities to ship each unit fully burned in (that is definitely a future goal), and many have been very happy with the stock amp, so I might suggest listening to the amp as the Tung-Sols burn in, think about which aspects of the sound you'd like to push, and then start rolling. This may be too logical and I may be revealing myself as _obviously_ not a tube-roller.


 
  
 Point taken. I will definitely let the amp burn in and keep the stock tubes for at least the first couple weeks, both to get used to the basic sound and to have a basis for comparison.
  
 On the other hand, I'm incredibly tempted to go crazy buying glass. I will try to keep this impulse in check. 
  
 So far I've only purchased the Genalex Gold Lion 12AT7s, and some Tung Sol 6SN7GTBs. Those Tung Sols are different than stock, right? If they're the same, I'm gonna feel pretty stupid.


----------



## donlin

zachawry said:


> Point taken. I will definitely let the amp burn in and keep the stock tubes for at least the first couple weeks, both to get used to the basic sound and to have a basis for comparison.
> 
> On the other hand, I'm incredibly tempted to go crazy buying glass. I will try to keep this impulse in check.
> 
> So far I've only purchased the Genalex Gold Lion 12AT7s, and some Tung Sol 6SN7GTBs. Those Tung Sols are different than stock, right? If they're the same, I'm gonna feel pretty stupid.




The Tung Sols you bought are the stock tubes.


----------



## willsw

Maybe he bought this one: http://www.kcanostubes.com/content/nos-tung-sol-6sn7gtb
  
 It is now out of stock. Could have been the last one.


----------



## jelt2359

Ever since I purchased another Otl amp, I went down this path too. Got a Cbs Hytron brown base, Tung sol round plate, national union, RCA, sylvania black base, sylvania metal base. 

They sound so different! Id say 10% at least. And frankly in this hobby, that amount of difference is basically amounting to an entirely new amp. 

Ymmv of course- the Mzotl is not your father's Otl....


----------



## zachawry

willsw said:


> Maybe he bought this one: http://www.kcanostubes.com/content/nos-tung-sol-6sn7gtb
> 
> It is now out of stock. Could have been the last one.


 

 These are the ones I got:
 http://www.amazon.co.jp/gp/product/B00PXYPKPI/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
  
  
 If they are stock, hopefully I can still return them. Will still feel stupid, though. 
  
 EDIT: I'm willing to believe I'm more stupid than the average buyer, but maybe you should include the exact names of the stock tubes on the website to prevent this from happening.


----------



## donlin

zachawry said:


> These are the ones I got:
> http://www.amazon.co.jp/gp/product/B00PXYPKPI/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
> 
> 
> ...




Yep, those are the stock tubes. Current production russian tung sol. It's not the end of the world to have a spare set on hand. And they do say on their website that those are the tubes you get.


----------



## zachawry

donlin said:


> Yep, those are the stock tubes. Current production russian tung sol. It's not the end of the world to have a spare set on hand. And they do say on their website that those are the tubes you get.


 

 It says "Tung-Sol Russian vacuum tubes." Could be a little bit more specific.


----------



## donlin

zachawry said:


> It says "T[COLOR=363636]ung-Sol Russian vacuum tubes." Could be a little bit more specific. [/COLOR]




How could it be any more specific? That's exactly what they are.


----------



## JazzVinyl

nephilim said:


> If you can afford it. It is much more expensive so it must be better
> 
> Seriously, it all depends on personal preferences. In my previous amp I quickly realized that I was not too fond of the TungSol 6SN7 (albeit I guess I understand why manufactures prefer to use them as stock tubes) and tried various other tubes. With the ZOTL I am now very curious to see how these tubes will perform in the new amp. The ECC31 are a very promising start. But obviously I cannot say that a certain tube works better or worse for you.




Hello Neph...

I take it the new amp is free of hum, for you?

Hope so...


----------



## nephilim

Hi JV, 

yes, it is - pitch black


----------



## zachawry

donlin said:


> How could it be any more specific? That's exactly what they are.


 

 If you look here, for example
  
 http://www.ebay.com/bhp/tung-sol-6sn7
  
 you will see that there are many, many tubes that go by the name "Tung Sol 6SN7," from 8 bucks to $500 for a pair. 
  
 Maybe it's clear to you that "Tung-Sol Russian vacuum tubes" means "the GTB line currently being produced in Russia", but it hardly seems like it would be obvious to everybody.


----------



## JazzVinyl

nephilim said:


> Hi JV,
> 
> yes, it is - pitch black




That's excellent news, Neph, I'm so glad to hear it. 

Enjoying your tube expirments. Hope you get many hours of sonic delight, from the new system.

Cheers!!



.


----------



## doctorjazz

@zachawry, I feel your pain, I'm also a tube novice, find this hard to get my head around. Have to thank you, though, you saved me $40, I was about to get the same 12AT7's, FROM THE SAME DEALER, for $160/pair instead of the $120/pair. Think the ZOTL sounds fine with the stock tubes, playing a bit with substituting, but probably doesn't pay to go nuts.
Try to cancel or return the Tung-Sol tubes. 
(I'm wondering if this isn't one of those situations where, while things may sound DIFFERENT with tube changes, to get changes that actually make the sound BETTER, you have to go significantly higher in cost for the tubes...).


----------



## donlin

zachawry said:


> If you look here, for example
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/bhp/tung-sol-6sn7
> 
> ...




It's actually pretty simple. All *current production* tubes that use old tube brand names such as Tung-Sol, Mullard, Gold Lion, Telefunken, etc. are Russian or Eastern European made. Only NOS tubes are the real US made tubes typically made any time between the 1940's and early 1980's. There is only one current production Tung Sol tube and that's the one made in Russia.


----------



## merlin

eaglejo said:


> Wow, I had no idea this was even out.  In the past I've owned Berning's ZH-270 and the 300B Siegfried (the only piece of gear I've owned that's ever increased in price).  If this new ZOTL2 is voiced anything like his other amps and it sounds like it is based on this thread, then it is sonically my cup of tea.  Both the ZH-270 and Siegfried had tons of clarity and speed.  I could see some people not liking the speed of the amp.  It's a total audiophile cliche, but the Berning stuff definitely marries the best of ss and tube.  The 300B Siegfried was easily the best amp I've ever had and this includes several Shindo amps and many other top-of-the-foodchain amps.
> 
> I'll be placing my order later today.  If this is anything like his other gear, it will reveal everything in the chain.




Like you I just fell into this discussion and am very excited to order the headphone amp. I am a long time OTL users Atmosphere Joule and still use the ZH270. This is the best news I have heard in months


----------



## bazelio

Latest word ... mine is one week out.


----------



## Stage

Could someone please tell whether Microzotl2 would pair well with LCD-X ?


----------



## willsw

stage said:


> Could someone please tell whether Microzotl2 would pair well with LCD-X ?


 
  
 While I haven't heard the LCD-X, we used the LCD-XC as one of our demo headphones at the two shows we went to last year. I thought they sounded very well-paired, and I don't think many visitors disagreed.


----------



## jamato8

stage said:


> Could someone please tell whether Microzotl2 would pair well with LCD-X ?


 

 I haven't heard anything that the micro has not paired well with. It feeds a signal, doesn't mess it up, doesn't need some sort of headphone that compensates for deficiencies so if the LCD-X work well with a quality signal you should have few worries.


----------



## richard51

alas! i want a zotl to drive a Stax headphone.... it will need the more costly  Zotl 10  with my energizer i think so ? If someone know i am all ears...


----------



## zachawry

My MZOTL2 is at this very moment, I think, flying over the Pacific on its way to me in Japan. I am however, disappointed that it didn't come with radio-frequency worm-hole technology to delivery itself to me sooner. Waiting is such a bother.....


----------



## bazelio

richard51 said:


> alas! i want a zotl to drive a Stax headphone.... it will need the more costly  Zotl 10  with my energizer i think so ? If someone know i am all ears...:atsmile:




What about your beloved Dharma?


----------



## richard51

bazelio said:


> What about your beloved Dharma?


 

 i am less interested in the Dharmas....because of the price comparison with my stax sr-5 sorbothanized (65 dollars paid with the srd-6 energizer)... they are so good that i dont want any other headphone for now... If i was more rich i for sure would try the dharma... BUT trust me the Stax SR-5 *with sorbothane* is obscenely good, so good that i cannot imagine anything better for now except with thousands of dollars invested, i can trash now  my basic lambda nova and my hifiman he 400.. it is in another league with the SR-5 (by the way i had the idea to try one some weeks ago after reading two different review by 3 celebrated sound engineers not connected with one another and saying that the SR-5 was the best Stax  ever designed , Stax sold them  700 dollars in 1975 and not one of this engineers had listen to the SR-5 with the sorbothane mod!)...Hence i want to try the zotl 10 with the money saved, with an energizer, because i cannot for sure had  a better upgrade for  my Sansui au7700 than a zotl amp ...The dharma will wait some years... And Sorbothane thread is the most underrated thread here...look for it, you will understand 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
  
 p.s. the initiator of the  sorbothane thread edstrelow owns  also a Sr-5 sorbothanized and confirm  to me that they sound  like all his best high end Stax, i dont know the high end stax by personal experience, but it is the first time i am satisfied by the instrumental rendering of the musical instrument timbre and voice...why paying 1100 dollars for the dharma? i prefer to invest in the Zotl 10 for my Stax SR-5 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




... I think now that i had much more to learn about headphone than i thought, the last hype or revolutionary model is not necessary better in the absolute sense, some "obsolete" model are gem waiting the sorbothane mod, but people prefer to pay for new one the price, i was like that before the stax SR-5 and the sorbothane experiment ...if i was richer  i simply would bought the more costly one and forget all search, but i am not so  rich  and i am glad now with this 65 dollars marvel...with the money saving  the inaccessible zotl will be in my reach...in few months


----------



## ken6217

Has anyone tried the MicroZotyl as a preamp with a solid state amp?


----------



## doctorjazz

One of these days, I'll need a decent single ended interconnect (run it balanced from my current preamp), and I'll connect it to my Krell KSA-150...


----------



## yukihasi

richard51 said:


> alas! i want a zotl to drive a Stax headphone.... it will need the more costly  Zotl 10  with my energizer i think so ? If someone know i am all ears...


 
  
 Use microzotl2 as pre-amp with srm-717/srm-727, these two amps have bypass switch on them so they are the only two stax factory amps that could be used with pre-amp


----------



## richard51

yukihasi said:


> Use microzotl2 as pre-amp with srm-717/srm-727, these two amps have bypass switch on them so they are the only two stax factory amps that could be used with pre-amp


 

 thanks very interesting information....But in my experience ,confirmed by an other friend, the stax energizer srd-6sb works better than the Stax amps with a good amplifier with the Stax SR-5, hence i would prefer to use the zotl technology with an energizer, the Stax amp you mentioned+ the microzotl will almost cost the same than the Zotl 10 ....


----------



## doctorjazz

OK, my Siemens E81CC (12AT7) pair is here, about to put them in and try them out. Then, I suppose I should try them with the RCA's...


----------



## doctorjazz

So, my first impressions (drum roll please...)....


I DUNNO!!!!!!!!

(leave it to break in...no worse than stock so far, maybe even a bit more open, not sure)
More later...


----------



## bazelio

doctorjazz said:


> So, my first impressions (drum roll please...)....
> 
> 
> I DUNNO!!!!!!!!
> ...




What is your DAC and digital source in the chain?


----------



## doctorjazz

Think it is better (only the second track I've listened to...Grateful Dead Hi Rez "Box of Rain" didn't convince me one way or the other). Now Lake Street Dive "Stop Your Crying" (from the fine album, "Bad Self Portraits), think the sound is clear, open, with more richness in the mids/vocals at the same time, but very early impressions (2nd track, after all...). But, you all have to suffer through my learing on this


----------



## doctorjazz

bazelio said:


> doctorjazz said:
> 
> 
> > So, my first impressions (drum roll please...)....
> ...




My current PC system is: JRiver/LH Labs 2G usb/Regen/Geek Out Special Edition (femto clocks, hand matched by Larry, etc). I may go to the big rig one of these days (Linn LP12 almost maxed out, Pro-Ject Audio Tube Box S, could plug the ZOTL right in, waiting for a Norne extension because doing this makes me stand between my speakers hoping I don't sneeze and sent the ZOTL flying (should've come by now, but Trevor ran some Black Friday specials, and has been backed up since then...)


----------



## willsw

richard51 said:


> thanks very interesting information....But in my experience ,confirmed by an other friend, the stax energizer srd-6sb works better than the Stax amps with a good amplifier with the Stax SR-5, hence i would prefer to use the zotl technology with an energizer, the Stax amp you mentioned+ the microzotl will almost cost the same than the Zotl 10 ....


 
  
 In his review of the MicroZOTL2 in the February issue of The Absolute Sound, Dick Olsher hooks his Stax SR-X Mk2s up to the MicroZOTL2's speaker outputs with an SRD-7. In his words, "Together, these components forged a natural and synergetic partnership." You can look at the magazine for the rest of the adjectives he chose, I wouldn't want to sound like I'm advertising anything here.


----------



## richard51

willsw said:


> In his review of the MicroZOTL2 in the February issue of The Absolute Sound, Dick Olsher hooks his Stax SR-X Mk2s up to the MicroZOTL2's speaker outputs with an SRD-7. In his words, "Together, these components forged a natural and synergetic partnership." You can look at the magazine for the rest of the adjectives he chose, I wouldn't want to sound like I'm advertising anything here.


 

 thanks... very informative, i dont know now if want the micro or the zotl 10 to amplify  the energizer of stax or preamplify a Stax amp... I will think about that...thanks
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 update : i had read it ... Wow! if i understand the microzotl2 is more than adequate with an energizer stax to amplify the Stax sr-x hence my SR-5 also... no need of a more powerful amplifier like the zotl 10.... it is very, very interesting thanks for your time


----------



## doctorjazz

I have a Koss ESP-950, never figured out how to use it with a regular amp...play with it one of these days.
(think I like this set up tubes so far...)


----------



## doctorjazz

Reporting in, really do like these Siemens E81CC (12AT7), I'm going to let them cook for a while, then try the RCA 12AT7's with the Siemens next...The Siemens bring some more richness, presence in WITHOUT losing the air and detail that I can note so far.


----------



## zachawry

OK, listening to traditional first song on mine now (Blackwater by David Sylvian, incredibly multilayered euphonic song that really shines light on equipment). 
  
 This is my first tube amp, and coming from the Liquid Carbon I can see what the tubes do. There is indeed a certain organic or warm quality, though not bassy or gooey. It's also incredibly smooth and airy at the same time. The LC provides more definition and "dynamics", I think, though I need more listening and the unit needs more burning in. 
  
 One complaint: The power unit appears to be pretty poorly constructed. When plugging the power cord into the back, the back piece of aluminum bends inward severely, so I felt like it was going to collapse inward while I was just putting enough pressure on the plug to make sure it was securely set. 
  
 Also: My house can get pretty dusty (dog, poor circulation). Do I need to worry about dust accumulating inside the unit through all those air holes? 
  
 Also Also: Dang, there is something incredibly sweet and seductive about this here amp!


----------



## zachawry

OK, this is weird: There is a pronounced buzzing when I touch the volume control. 
  
 This is pretty loud when I have my Hugo connected to my AK120II, and much more quit but still present when my Hugo is connected to my PC. 
  
 What's up with this?


----------



## doctorjazz

Don't know, but people who know more than I do usually scream, in these situations, "GROUND LOOP!", which generally makes me jump under my bed and hide.
(or maybe it's something loose...could it be the Hugo? Does the potentiometer need oiling? Do bears schitt in the woods?  )


----------



## b0ssMax

zachawry said:


> OK, this is weird: There is a pronounced buzzing when I touch the volume control.
> 
> This is pretty loud when I have my Hugo connected to my AK120II, and much more quit but still present when my Hugo is connected to my PC.
> 
> What's up with this?




Do you use your hugo using the line out ( press crossfeed + power on)?


----------



## doctorjazz

(I don't get this, you should contact the ZOTL folks if it isolates consistently to the ZOTL...).
(another thought...sorry...you changed tubes, maybe try the stock tubes?)


----------



## willsw

zachawry said:


> OK, this is weird: There is a pronounced buzzing when I touch the volume control.
> 
> This is pretty loud when I have my Hugo connected to my AK120II, and much more quit but still present when my Hugo is connected to my PC.
> 
> What's up with this?




Not sure about why the volume changes with different sources, but the buzzing is a simple, if frustrating on our end, matter of paint being where paint shouldn't be on the case, preventing grounding. To correct the woke shipment of cases by hand wasn't realistic, so there is a slight buzz when you adjust the volume. Otherwise, the amp should be completely silent with the volume all the way up, after you've turned it up. If there is hum, it is likely a coming from a source hooked up.


----------



## zachawry

mrmax said:


> Do you use your hugo using the line out ( press crossfeed + power on)?


 

 I don't, because I think it's too hot that way. But it's just a difference of volume, that's it.


----------



## zachawry

doctorjazz said:


> (I don't get this, you should contact the ZOTL folks if it isolates consistently to the ZOTL...).
> (another thought...sorry...you changed tubes, maybe try the stock tubes?)


 

 Nope, stock tubes for the moment.


----------



## zachawry

willsw said:


> Not sure about why the volume changes with different sources, but the buzzing is a simple, if frustrating on our end, matter of paint being where paint shouldn't be on the case, preventing grounding. To correct the woke shipment of cases by hand wasn't realistic, so there is a slight buzz when you adjust the volume. Otherwise, the amp should be completely silent with the volume all the way up, after you've turned it up. If there is hum, it is likely a coming from a source hooked up.


 

 It's not when I turn the volume, it's when I touch it. Even just a little. 
  
 My chain is (plugged in) Macbook Pro --> (plugged in) Hugo --> MZOTL2. 
  
 Maybe it's not sufficiently grounded because maybe the power cord is only partially plugged into the back of the power supply, due to the issue I wrote about above with the case being not structurally sound. I'm scared to push it in farther because I don't want it to break.


----------



## willsw

zachawry said:


> It's not when I turn the volume, it's when I touch it. Even just a little.
> 
> My chain is (plugged in) Macbook Pro --> (plugged in) Hugo --> MZOTL2.
> 
> Maybe it's not sufficiently grounded because maybe the power cord is only partially plugged into the back of the power supply, due to the issue I wrote about above with the case being not structurally sound. I'm scared to push it in farther because I don't want it to break.


 
  
 I don't think it's the power supply, but you should push it firmly. The case will bend but is fine. I just loosened my own and it made no difference. Actually right now I'm not getting any buzz at all, and I know I used to. I'm not sure why that is, I'll ask Mark, but don't worry about you causing the buzz, it's not a user error. If it persists in a way that is alarming after you've been listening to the amp and burning it in more, definitely let us know directly.


----------



## zachawry

willsw said:


> I don't think it's the power supply, but you should push it firmly. The case will bend but is fine. I just loosened my own and it made no difference. Actually right now I'm not getting any buzz at all, and I know I used to. I'm not sure why that is, I'll ask Mark, but don't worry about you causing the buzz, it's not a user error. If it persists in a way that is alarming after you've been listening to the amp and burning it in more, definitely let us know directly.


 

 I don't care about the buzz when I'm touching the volume control, because I don't listen to music with my hand on the volume control.  
  
 I just want to make sure this isn't an issue that means something larger is wrong. 
  
 (If it matters, the sound is a lot louder when I touch the side of the volume control than when I touch the front of it. )


----------



## bazelio

zachawry said:


> willsw said:
> 
> 
> > Not sure about why the volume changes with different sources, but the buzzing is a simple, if frustrating on our end, matter of paint being where paint shouldn't be on the case, preventing grounding. To correct the woke shipment of cases by hand wasn't realistic, so there is a slight buzz when you adjust the volume. Otherwise, the amp should be completely silent with the volume all the way up, after you've turned it up. If there is hum, it is likely a coming from a source hooked up.
> ...


 
  
 Hmm, sorry to hear this.  I suppose I'll encounter the same thing.  Mine is due to arrive now mid next week now.  I had heard through this thread that the build quality of the amp case was a tad suspect, but hadn't heard that the power supply's IEC connector wasn't properly supported.  That to me is borderline unacceptable, whereas the former was something I'd decided was worth living with...  Hmm, willsw, between the paint on the case breaking a ground connection that results in a hum to the touch and this power supply structural issue ... maybe a little extra QA at the expense of absolute shipment turnaround time is worthwhile?  Just a thought.
  
 Regarding the LC comparison, I think you've probably nailed it.  I've heard the LC and it is indeed probably more detailed (ultimately I need to opine next week) but it isn't going to have the same staging as the MZ2.  The LC is a great little amp at, what, almost half the price.


----------



## zachawry

bazelio said:


> Hmm, sorry to hear this.  I suppose I'll encounter the same thing.  Mine is due to arrive now mid next week now.  I had heard through this thread that the build quality of the amp case was a tad suspect, but hadn't heard that the power supply's IEC connector wasn't properly supported.  That to me is borderline unacceptable, whereas the former was something I'd decided was worth living with...  Hmm, willsw, between the paint on the case breaking a ground connection that results in a hum to the touch and this power supply structural issue ... maybe a little extra QA at the expense of absolute shipment turnaround time is worthwhile?  Just a thought.
> 
> Regarding the LC comparison, I think you've probably nailed it.  I've heard the LC and it is indeed probably more detailed (ultimately I need to opine next week) but it isn't going to have the same staging as the MZ2.  The LC is a great little amp at, what, almost half the price.


 
  
 Regarding the case: I do like looking in, but it gives the whole thing a "DIY" vibe that I don't really want in a high-end piece of audio gear. I'd rather pay an extra $100 for a really nice case. I'm not a marketing guy or anything, but I suspect that anybody willing to spend $1100 on a MZOTL2 is willing to spend $1200 on one with a nicer chassis. Probably even more people, because some will be turned off by the DIY impression. 
  
 As for the LC: it's great, but after listening extensively I can't get rid of the impression that there is a lack of coherence to the sound. All the individual pieces are great, but somehow it just feels fragmented. The MZ brings more coherence to the sound. Of course, it's also twice the price of the LC, so this is hardly negating that great little amp.


----------



## bazelio

zachawry said:


> bazelio said:
> 
> 
> > Hmm, sorry to hear this.  I suppose I'll encounter the same thing.  Mine is due to arrive now mid next week now.  I had heard through this thread that the build quality of the amp case was a tad suspect, but hadn't heard that the power supply's IEC connector wasn't properly supported.  That to me is borderline unacceptable, whereas the former was something I'd decided was worth living with...  Hmm, willsw, between the paint on the case breaking a ground connection that results in a hum to the touch and this power supply structural issue ... maybe a little extra QA at the expense of absolute shipment turnaround time is worthwhile?  Just a thought.
> ...


 
  
 I think the LC's strengths are well matched to certain types of music, whereas the MZ2 is going to excel more generally.
  
 The DIY thing ... yeah, I'm ambivalent there.  Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.  Bending the case to insert the power
 cable... that's a bit different though.


----------



## svmusa

I would suggest to let the tubes burn-in, it take a while before you get to the the true magic of the tubes.


----------



## zachawry

One more question until I close this dang money- and time-sink of a site and actually get some work done:
  
 Can I leave the MZ2 on all the time while burning in? Can it (and the tubes) take a week or so of straight operation, or should I give it a rest at night?


----------



## bazelio

zachawry said:


> One more question until I close this dang money- and time-sink of a site and actually get some work done:
> 
> Can I leave the MZ2 on all the time while burning in? Can it (and the tubes) take a week or so of straight operation, or should I give it a rest at night?


 
  
  
 Let her rip.


----------



## svmusa

zachawry said:


> One more question until I close this dang money- and time-sink of a site and actually get some work done:
> 
> Can I leave the MZ2 on all the time while burning in? Can it (and the tubes) take a week or so of straight operation, or should I give it a rest at night?


 
 I did leave it on for a few days, you can shut it down as well. The design of the amp seems to have taken care of keeping tube life prolonged


----------



## doctorjazz

I don't actually hear the LC and ZOTL the same way...I love the LC, but I find the ZOTL more detailed, wider and deeper stage with more air than the LC. I do find the LC to have a bit more "tonal saturation", if you will, and it's a bit more forward. It's sort of turning the solid state/tube usual descriptions on their heads, the LC being more "tube-like". And, yes, the LC @ $599 is quite a bargain, was my bedside unit for a while, with the ZOTL in my PC system.


----------



## willsw

bazelio said:


> Hmm, sorry to hear this.  I suppose I'll encounter the same thing.  Mine is due to arrive now mid next week now.  I had heard through this thread that the build quality of the amp case was a tad suspect, but hadn't heard that the power supply's IEC connector wasn't properly supported.  That to me is borderline unacceptable, whereas the former was something I'd decided was worth living with...  Hmm, willsw, between the paint on the case breaking a ground connection that results in a hum to the touch and this power supply structural issue ... maybe a little extra QA at the expense of absolute shipment turnaround time is worthwhile?  Just a thought.
> 
> Regarding the LC comparison, I think you've probably nailed it.  I've heard the LC and it is indeed probably more detailed (ultimately I need to opine next week) but it isn't going to have the same staging as the MZ2.  The LC is a great little amp at, what, almost half the price.


 
  
  
 The connector support has never been an issue, there is just some give in the power supply case, as the folded metal doesn't have a screw holding it. The hum to the touch always seemed negligible, and we've not received many comments on it. There are many improvements, small and large, that could be done to the current version of the MicroZOTL2. The goal of this version was to deliver a ZOTL amplifier at as low a cost as was possible without sacrificing sound quality. We are, of course, planning the next version with improvements both obvious, like the power supply case and the ground, and that came through suggestions from people with the amp, so please be vocal about anything that you think could improve the sound or the amp as a whole. And we're also trying to figure out how best to make those improvements available to anyone who currently has an amp at as little cost as possible. I don't want to sound defensive, because I agree that these little things should have been fixed before shipping the first amp, so I suppose I should just say that I hope it sounds good enough for you to forgive its faults. And you've reminded me that I need to get the FAQ page up on our website.


----------



## zachawry

willsw said:


> The connector support has never been an issue, there is just some give in the power supply case, as the folded metal doesn't have a screw holding it. The hum to the touch always seemed negligible, and we've not received many comments on it. There are many improvements, small and large, that could be done to the current version of the MicroZOTL2. The goal of this version was to deliver a ZOTL amplifier at as low a cost as was possible without sacrificing sound quality. We are, of course, planning the next version with improvements both obvious, like the power supply case and the ground, and that came through suggestions from people with the amp, so please be vocal about anything that you think could improve the sound or the amp as a whole. And we're also trying to figure out how best to make those improvements available to anyone who currently has an amp at as little cost as possible. I don't want to sound defensive, because I agree that these little things should have been fixed before shipping the first amp, so I suppose I should just say that I hope it sounds good enough for you to forgive its faults. And you've reminded me that I need to get the FAQ page up on our website.


 

 Thanks for the response. It doesn't sound "defensive" to me. Sounds perfectly reasonable. 
  
 Do you know when the new upgraded power supplies are going to be shipping, and for how much? I already love this little amp and want to make it better.


----------



## zachawry

doctorjazz said:


> I don't actually hear the LC and ZOTL the same way...I love the LC, but I find the ZOTL more detailed, wider and deeper stage with more air than the LC. I do find the LC to have a bit more "tonal saturation", if you will, and it's a bit more forward. It's sort of turning the solid state/tube usual descriptions on their heads, the LC being more "tube-like". And, yes, the LC @ $599 is quite a bargain, was my bedside unit for a while, with the ZOTL in my PC system.


 

 I actually agree with you. Not sure about the detail, but the MZ2 definitely has more air. The LC has more tonal saturation (I like that term!), but at the price of overall cohesiveness of sound.


----------



## willsw

zachawry said:


> Thanks for the response. It doesn't sound "defensive" to me. Sounds perfectly reasonable.
> 
> Do you know when the new upgraded power supplies are going to be shipping, and for how much? I already love this little amp and want to make it better.


 
  
 We don't have an exact date, but it will be mid-March. We'll send out an email and I'll let you know here. The linear power supplies will be $600, or $400 if you already have a MicroZOTL.


----------



## zachawry

willsw said:


> We don't have an exact date, but it will be mid-March. We'll send out an email and I'll let you know here. The linear power supplies will be $600, or $400 if you already have a MicroZOTL.


 

 Thanks! $400 is a lot better than $1000 for Mojo's. 
  
 One last question: If I take out the phones, will burn-in still happen?


----------



## willsw

zachawry said:


> Thanks! $400 is a lot better than $1000 for Mojo's.
> 
> One last question: If I take out the phones, will burn-in still happen?


 
  
 I believe the optimal method is to leave your headphones plugged in to give the signal somewhere to go. Or you could plug in some speakers and play whale sounds for sleep. Might not be the best burn-in playlist though.


----------



## zachawry

willsw said:


> I believe the optimal method is to leave your headphones plugged in to give the signal somewhere to go. Or you could plug in some speakers and play whale sounds for sleep. Might not be the best burn-in playlist though.


 

 In the long and involved discussions on burn-in for the LC, the manufacturer said that you could take your phones out and it wouldn't matter, burn in would still happen. 
  
 I just asked because my listening station is in the living room.


----------



## willsw

zachawry said:


> In the long and involved discussions on burn-in for the LC, the manufacturer said that you could take your phones out and it wouldn't matter, burn in would still happen.
> 
> I just asked because my listening station is in the living room.


 
  
 I will default to Mr. Cavalli, then. There is no doubt he knows more than me.


----------



## zachawry

willsw said:


> I will default to Mr. Cavalli, then. There is no doubt he knows more than me.


 

 Well, it might not be true for all amps, right?


----------



## willsw

zachawry said:


> Well, it might not be true for all amps, right?


 
  
 To be honest, I do not know. I ask Mark Schneider for the answers to technical questions that I haven't yet learned; I'm relatively new to being intimately acquainted with amplifiers. You won't hurt the amp either way.


----------



## nephilim

Gents,
  
 some info from my ZOTL, which is not buzzing anymore:
  
 I got my ZOTL a few weeks ago together with the SBooster PSU. I did not unpack the stock PSU and directly attached the ZOTL to the SBooster and plugged in my Calyx M portable DAC. While the DAC was running on battery, everything was fine. Once it was fed from a USB PSU, I heard a loud buzz when touching the volume knob. I attached the stock PSU and the buzz was almost gone. The issue here is that the USB PSU has no protective earth (no third pin on the power cord) and in addition the SBooster PSU's minus contact has also no connection to PE. Using the stock PSU the ZOTL is grounded (link to PE) and the buzz disappears (almost). I contacted SBooster and they told me that their DC outlet is not grounded because of potential compatibility issues but they were extremely helpful to guide me through a mod which grounds the minus terminal of the DC outlet. Now my ZOTL is dead quiet and gives just a tiny buzz when touching the volume knob at max setting.
  
 So if your ZOTL buzzes with the stock PSU I would check whether the PSU is connected to the wall socket with a 3pin cord (with PE). You could also check if a wire between the outer contact of the input panel RCA sockets and PE (or a big chunk of metal) cures the hum. Does it still buzz when you touch volume knob and input RCA sockets at the same time?
  
 In terms of manufacturing quality I quite like the ZOTL. On my sample the volume poti was a bit loose but I was able to tighten it properly.
  
 Wishlist for a revised ZOTL: support the PCB next to the tube sockets. When the 6SN7s are wiggled out carefully, the PCB still bends substantially. I wonder if sooner or later this would lead to a failure of the PCB.


----------



## doctorjazz

So it IS A GROUND LOOP!!!!!
EEEAEAEAEAEYEAEY!!!!
Let me know when it's safe to come out from under the bed!


----------



## donlin

My amp is dead quiet at all times, even when touching the volume control. I have everything plugged into a PS Audio Power Plant which I think helps with grounding issues.


----------



## donlin

I would really appreciate if there was a black metal top available to replace the clear top.


----------



## zachawry

If we are giving suggestions now, how about an XLR output? I am probably many others have nice XLR cords for our headphones, and an XLR port would be a nice addition. Don't know how much it would add to the cost.


----------



## willsw

zachawry said:


> If we are giving suggestions now, how about an XLR output? I am probably many others have nice XLR cords for our headphones, and an XLR port would be a nice addition. Don't know how much it would add to the cost.


 
  
 We actually went pretty far in planning an XLR output after it had been requested by another customer, but decided that unless we designed a balanced version of the amp (David Berning, I believe, said he did a custom dual-mono microzotl once) we'd rather just have the 1/4" jack. 
  
 Just talked to Mark - I had emailed him last night (he's currently out of the country), and he has told the guys in the workshop to from now on grind off that hum causing paint on each case, so now from now on no one should experience the "Magic Touch" with the volume control. We hadn't realized how alarming it could be, as we hadn't gotten many comments on it. There are also new cases for the switching power supply on the way, which will be available as a low-to-no cost replacement to anyone who wants one (I expect that we may charge international customers shipping). Those should be available around the same time as the Linear Power Supply, in mid-March.
  
 Regarding the flexing PCB, we're now (from today - this had been planned and materials bought but there has been a lot going on and it was forgotten about; a bit embarrassing but at least we have things ready to go) adding support underneath the board but, until we get through the current batch of boards, can't ask David to redesign the board with more holes. With the added support underneath, though, you can hold the board down while removing tubes.
  
 Again, for everyone with a MicroZOTL2, none of these things, as far as we know, have caused any failures, any reduction in sound quality, or any danger to the user. But I am glad they'll be changed, as the amp should be built as well as possible. And anything we can't address immediately we will definitely consider addressing in the future.


----------



## nephilim

Wonderful news! A great product is one thing - excellent support and continuous improvements by the manufacturer make it perfect.


----------



## jamato8

I put a couple of grommets, the right height, under the board and it is solid when putting in or taking out tubes. Just do is slowly. VTL used to manufacture an amp that had the boards, with the power tubes, so close to the case that you could flex it enough to short out the circuit. Do that with the amperage and voltage of a power amp and you won't like the results.


----------



## bazelio

willsw said:


> zachawry said:
> 
> 
> > If we are giving suggestions now, how about an XLR output? I am probably many others have nice XLR cords for our headphones, and an XLR port would be a nice addition. Don't know how much it would add to the cost.
> ...




This is the sign of a company who knows what business it is truly in: the business of winning and keeping customers.


----------



## zachawry

bazelio said:


> This is the sign of a company who knows what business it is truly in: the business of winning and keeping customers.


 

 I agree. I really dislike it when companies withhold improvements they know are possible.


----------



## zachawry

I'm out in town with my wonderful wife and two beautiful children, and all I can think about is how much I want to go back home and listen to my new headphone aaampppp......
  
 Probably not healthy.


----------



## doctorjazz

zachawry said:


> I'm out in town with my wonderful wife and two beautiful children, and all I can think about is how much I want to go back home and listen to my new headphone aaampppp......
> 
> Probably not healthy.




Definitely unhealthy if you tell your wife


----------



## willsw

Has anyone tried 600 Ohm headphones with the MicroZOTL2? Or any impedance above 300 Ohm?


----------



## Audio Addict

When I had it here before a meet, I forgot to try it with my T1. If you want to sent it again, I will try the T1 with it


----------



## yukihasi

My K240 Monitor is 600 ohm, works fine.


----------



## zachawry

jamato8 said:


> People just need to buy the micro Zotl and sit back and enjoy the music. Cause that is what it is, a musical instrument.


 

 Best comment in the whole thread. 
  
 (Which I'm re-reading now.)


----------



## krumley7882

Just got my MicroZOTL.  I have never heard anything like it!  Truly inspirational.  Love it.  Thank You David Berning and Linear Tube Audio!


----------



## doctorjazz

krumley7882 said:


> Just got my MicroZOTL.  I have never heard anything like it!  Truly inspirational.  Love it.  Thank You David Berning and Linear Tube Audio!



Congrats, enjoy!


----------



## svmusa

+1, until you hear one it's feels too good to be true at this price range.


----------



## bazelio

Twiddling thumbs ......


----------



## RKML0007

Running late or is this usual for UPS to you?


----------



## bazelio

UPS likes to come to my neighborhood last...  Which I've seen be as late as 8:00PM, but that's usually reserved for the holidays.


----------



## RKML0007

Looking forward to your impressions bazelio!


----------



## zachawry

krumley7882 said:


> Just got my MicroZOTL.  I have never heard anything like it!  Truly inspirational.  Love it.  Thank You David Berning and Linear Tube Audio!


 

 Is that a Vali 2 over there on the left? I am kinda tempted by that for a second listening station.


----------



## krumley7882

Its the Wyrd, actually.  But I have really enjoyed everything I've heard from them. I keep getting tempted (for second/plural listening stations), but I think the lady is becoming worried for me.  Best!


----------



## bazelio

Well folks, the eagle has landed.  Sorry for the horrible lighting.  It's time to upgrade to LED bulbs in the office and boost the lumens!
  
 A very nice presentation upon opening the box:
  

  
  
 Underneath the foam, nice and tidy:
  

  
 Only a temporary location before taking it to work:
  

  
 Letting her warm up:


----------



## saidentary

bazelio said:


> Well folks, the eagle has landed.  Sorry for the horrible lighting.  It's time to upgrade to LED bulbs in the office and boost the lumens!
> 
> A very nice presentation upon opening the box:
> 
> ...


 
 AND????????????????
 Do you LIKE ITS SOUND????????
  
 Just askin'..........
  
WELL??????  Fess up, man!


----------



## willsw

Seems like bazelio's amp slipped through the testing cracks and is making some noise I can't account for this time, so we will probably be sending him another unit as soon as possible. No excuse for it, but we're trying our darndest to get to 100% perfect amps on delivery and we'll just keep trying until we don't have to send out any more replacement units.


----------



## saidentary

willsw said:


> Seems like bazelio's amp slipped through the testing cracks and is making some noise I can't account for this time, so we will probably be sending him another unit as soon as possible. No excuse for it, but we're trying our darndest to get to 100% perfect amps on delivery and we'll just keep trying until we don't have to send out any more replacement units.


 
 Well, it sounds like it should be a fixable problem, at least.


----------



## bazelio

Sorry to be anticlimactic, but there is a light static sputtering noise in the left channel and light hum in the right channel at zero volume. The amp is still listenable and I've formed an impression of its musical signature and presentation. But it's only right to hold off critique until the problem is solved and I can spend more time with a properly executed sample.

Thanks again to Will for being on top of it though!


----------



## hrq12345

bazelio said:


> Sorry to be anticlimactic, but there is a light static sputtering noise in the left channel and light hum in the right channel at zero volume. The amp is still listenable and I've formed an impression of its musical signature and presentation. But it's only right to hold off critique until the problem is solved and I can spend more time with a properly executed sample.
> 
> Thanks again to Will for being on top of it though!


 
 Did you connect it via RCA cables? I found the RCA connectors on MZOTL2 needs very careful adjusting of the cable. I tried about 1 hour to adjust the RCA cable on the first day I got mine. Then the noise is gone.


----------



## bazelio

hrq12345 said:


> bazelio said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry to be anticlimactic, but there is a light static sputtering noise in the left channel and light hum in the right channel at zero volume. The amp is still listenable and I've formed an impression of its musical signature and presentation. But it's only right to hold off critique until the problem is solved and I can spend more time with a properly executed sample.
> ...


 
  
 Hmm, that's odd.  Something doesn't sound right about that, either.
  
 But, no, in my case the static and hum are there without any RCA inputs connected at all.  Mark guesses that it is a bad batch of tubes.  Tubes that measure well can still be noisy, and that seems to be the case here.
  
 Nevertheless, I do have a good idea now of how this amp makes music sound.......


----------



## willsw

hrq12345 said:


> Did you connect it via RCA cables? I found the RCA connectors on MZOTL2 needs very careful adjusting of the cable. I tried about 1 hour to adjust the RCA cable on the first day I got mine. Then the noise is gone.




I agree that this sounds odd. I'd appreciate it if you would PM me with a more detailed explanation of what you mean.


----------



## krumley7882

What are some quality linear power supplies that you all would recommend? Thanks.


----------



## bazelio

Well Linear Tube Audio is releasing one soon, right? Otherwise I would say look at Mojo Audio.


----------



## doctorjazz

I'm waiting on the Linear Tube Audio LPS...the Mojo has gotten good notices here, but costs almost as much as the ZOTL. No way to know how they compare to each other, the Linear Tube Audio version isn't out yet, and I'm guessing not many folks will have both for direct comparison (but, that's life in the audio world, couldn't really compare cables or other gear before buying, just collect impressions and make the best guest (and, for many, sell if your not happy).


----------



## bazelio

doctorjazz said:


> I'm waiting on the Linear Tube Audio LPS...the Mojo has gotten good notices here, but costs almost as much as the ZOTL. No way to know how they compare to each other, the Linear Tube Audio version isn't out yet, and I'm guessing not many folks will have both for direct comparison (but, that's life in the audio world, couldn't really compare cables or other gear before buying, just collect impressions and make the best guest (and, for many, sell if your not happy).


 
  
 Mojo Audio has the Watt power supply for 599.  The Joule is what you're thinking of, and runs $1k.


----------



## doctorjazz

True, didn't know about the less expensive LPS, though the Watt will still be considerably more expensive than the LTA version from what we've been told.


----------



## willsw

The Watt has been marked down to $600, which is also what the LTA linear power supply will cost, excepting an appreciation discount that makes it $400 for those who have already purchased a Microzotl. From what I recall from using Mojo's very nice power supplies (and their great NOS DACs, which we will continue to use, and his computer server - I don't know if people know that we actually have a relationship with Mojo and will be partnering with them again soon) at RMAF last year, the LTA supply is also smaller, about the same size as the stock switching supply. If the aesthetics of your supply matters, Mark's preference for letting heat escape rather than sinking it in the case continues, and the supply is made of perforated steel, through which you can make out the components if you try. Anyone concerned about the flexing stock supply continuing its legacy should not; Mark made sure you could "throw the case down the stairs" and it'd be fine. Not recommended, but it's a solid case.


----------



## krumley7882

Thanks. So there are many options indeed! And a great discount from LTA! Love this site!

Has anyone have feedback on either

SBooster?

Or 

HDPlex- LPS-100w
http://www.hd-plex.com/HDPLEX-Fanless-Linear-Power-Supply-for-PC-Audio-and-CE-device.html


----------



## doctorjazz

krumley7882 said:


> Thanks. So there are many options indeed! And a great discount from LTA! Love this site!
> 
> Has anyone have feedback on either
> 
> ...




Curious about these meself!


----------



## buson160man

I attended the chiunify meet and some one had a microztl  otl  set up . I did get a brief listen and it did sound ok but I was not blown over by it . It seemed to be somewhat limited in power output . It was nowhere near as good as the cavalli amp that was there but to be fair the cavalli is a lot more expensive . Of course the dave was hooked up to the cavalli amp so that probably had something to do with it . But i still get the feeling that the cavalli is a much better headphone amp than the microztl  otl .  At least I am not convinced yet as to its" pedigree I would have to hear it more extensively to make a proper assessment . I had a friend who had the original berning pre amp way back when . Now that was great preamp in its day. Way better than what audio research was making back then . The berning had I believe three phono inputs I never saw that on any other preamp .


----------



## jamato8

What was the source for the micro? I mean, it will only put out what you feed it. Headphones, source etc. I have a number of headphones and power is not a limiting factor with the micro, IMO but source is. If not using the same source then any comparison has no meaning.


----------



## willsw

I'd guess it was Zack of ZMF's amp, so it'd probably be hooked up to the very adequate sourcing of an Yggy. I'm curious which headphones were used. Always wanting to expand my catalogue of which headphones do well with the MicroZOTL2 and which do not.


----------



## donlin

You can add the Sennheiser HD650 to the list that do well. The microzotl + HD650 is a magical combo.


----------



## bazelio

buson160man said:


> I attended the chiunify meet and some one had a microztl  otl  set up . I did get a brief listen and it did sound ok but I was not blown over by it . It seemed to be somewhat limited in power output . It was nowhere near as good as the cavalli amp that was there but to be fair the cavalli is a lot more expensive . Of course the dave was hooked up to the cavalli amp so that probably had something to do with it . But i still get the feeling that the cavalli is a much better headphone amp than the microztl  otl .  At least I am not convinced yet as to its" pedigree I would have to hear it more extensively to make a proper assessment . I had a friend who had the original berning pre amp way back when . Now that was great preamp in its day. Way better than what audio research was making back then . The berning had I believe three phono inputs I never saw that on any other preamp .




Yeah, I can believe that. I'm interested in hearing more of the Cavalli line and comparing to my Zana Deux S. I'm not so sure a ZOTL2 to Zana Deux compare is necessarily appropriate though, nor a higher end Cavalli. With that said, from what I've heard thus far, I'd probably very much recommend the MZ2 to anyone looking for a $1100 amp. Likewise, to someone looking to spend $2300+ on an amp, I would have other recommendations. 

More to come from me later this week when my MZ2 reships....


----------



## zachawry

It's hardly surprising that the sound coming out of a much more expensive amp fed by a much more expensive DAC was better. The MZ2 is great, but it ain't magic!
  
 (And I think it has ample power for anything short of HE-6, Abyss, etc.)


----------



## krumley7882

willsw said:


> ....I'm curious which headphones were used. Always wanting to expand my catalogue of which headphones do well with the MicroZOTL2 and which do not.




Lcd2 sound fantastico to mine ears, body and soul! Also my Fostex TH-XOO. I recently listened to newly mixed music I had the privilege of recording drums/vocals for through the ZOTL. Having been part of the entire process, I found this amp gave back the best/truest representation of our music. But....Now I just need the portableZOTL.


----------



## b0ssMax

I've been reading about the microzotl for the past couple of weeks.

Soon i might give in...
Seen this in the thread. -- Good with HEK & HD650.
Anyone can tell me how the synergy is with HE-500 and HD800S?


----------



## sheldaze

mrmax said:


> I've been reading about the microzotl for the past couple of weeks.
> 
> Soon i might give in...
> Seen this in the thread. -- Good with HEK & HD650.
> Anyone can tell me how the synergy is with HE-500 and HD800S?




I'll comment on HD800S this weekend.


----------



## donlin

sheldaze said:


> I'll comment on HD800S this weekend.


 

 Could I ask where you bought your HD800S?
  
 Thanks.


----------



## sheldaze

donlin said:


> Could I ask where you bought your HD800S?
> 
> Thanks.




From a fellow Head-Fi member, who bought from Meier.


----------



## bazelio

sheldaze said:


> donlin said:
> 
> 
> > Could I ask where you bought your HD800S?
> ...


 
  
 I think the HD800S is going to be a great phone for any OTL (if we can still call the MZ2 that) amp.  
  
 I'd also be very interested in your impressions of the MicroZOTL2 vs the DNA Sonnet.


----------



## donlin

bazelio said:


> I think the HD800S is going to be a great phone for any OTL (if we can still call the MZ2 that) amp.
> 
> I'd also be very interested in your impressions of the MicroZOTL2 vs the DNA Sonnet.


 

 Based on how well it works with the HD650, I would have to agree.


----------



## Hifi01170

Hi there,
 
just acquired a microZOTL 2 amp. Beautiful sound! Indeed praiseworthy and the best I have heard so far in terms of amp!
 
But but but.... I have a sputtering noise coming on the left side.
 
strange thing is when placing my hand above the left tube, the sputtering noise disappeared. So I tried placing a CD case on top on the leftmost tube and seems to work as well.
 
Any idea on why this might happen? I'm a total noob with tubes....
 
thanks for your help guys!


----------



## willsw

hifi01170 said:


> Hi there,
> 
> just acquired a microZOTL 2 amp. Beautiful sound! Indeed praiseworthy and the best I have heard so far in terms of amp!
> 
> ...


 
  
 Having just revised our testing techniques to be much more thorough, this is very frustrating to hear. If you email hifi@lineartubeaudio.com, Mark Schneider can do some troubleshooting with you.


----------



## Hifi01170

Thanks Willsw! Just sent an email. Will wait for feedback.
  
 Cheers,


----------



## willsw

hifi01170 said:


> Thanks Willsw! Just sent an email. Will wait for feedback.
> 
> Cheers,


 
  
 Also, worthwhile asking the seller if this was something he experienced as well. Your amp was customized for him and as far as I know he did not contact us regarding noise.


----------



## Hifi01170

Hi Willsw, indeed I checked with him and he confirmed that till now there was no noise he could detect with his listening setup.
 That's why am wondering what might cause this.... plus as mentionned, this noise disappears when placing either my hand (or a CD case) above one of the tube....
  
 Is there a way to know if it is a question of the tube needing to be properly fixed on the socket? I guess there's some kind of socket....
 Or the tube itself is faulty for some reason I don't know...
  
 Cheers,


----------



## donlin

hifi01170 said:


> Hi Willsw, indeed I checked with him and he confirmed that till now there was no noise he could detect with his listening setup.
> That's why am wondering what might cause this.... plus as mentionned, this noise disappears when placing either my hand (or a CD case) above one of the tube....
> 
> Is there a way to know if it is a question of the tube needing to be properly fixed on the socket? I guess there's some kind of socket....
> ...


 

 Try switching the tubes and see if the problem moves to the other channel.  If so, all you need to do is get some new tubes.


----------



## Hifi01170

it seems it has to be powered off and left for a couple of hours before any such test... 
  
 any idea on how long it should be left before touching the tubes, swapping, etc.
  
 Anyway I'm not gonna touch anything for the time being.


----------



## donlin

I know what I would do, but I don't want to advise you to do anything you're uncomfortable with.


----------



## yukihasi

jamato8 said:


> What was the source for the micro? I mean, it will only put out what you feed it. Headphones, source etc. I have a number of headphones and power is not a limiting factor with the micro, IMO but source is. If not using the same source then any comparison has no meaning.


 
 Agreed, based on the later post I suppose it was a ?->Yggy->mzotl vs ?->chord dave->cavalli (model?).
  
 BTW, my friend who also have mzotl just received his EC the studio, gonna go by listen for sometime.


----------



## yukihasi

hifi01170 said:


> it seems it has to be powered off and left for a couple of hours before any such test...
> 
> any idea on how long it should be left before touching the tubes, swapping, etc.
> 
> Anyway I'm not gonna touch anything for the time being.


 
 If you want to be super careful about it then let it cool down for about 15 minutes after turned off.


----------



## bazelio

Tubes are fun and finicky sometimes.  I think there's probably no substitute for at least moderate burn in and listening tests, unfortunately.  I've had many a "NOS" (such a bogus term nowadays) tube degrade with low hours in years past.... and I swore off tubes for a while.  But eventually, they drew me back in.


----------



## willsw

Just heard from bazelio about his replacement amp, which I tested and was perfect on shipment - only to arrive with left-channel noise. It's possible that when air travel is involved in shipment, tubes can become loose and only need to be adjusted. If that's the case, we'll have to figure out a solution. If the problem isn't that simple, Linear Tube Audio may have to put shipments of new units on a short hold until the problem is found and if traced to a single source in the manufacturing team, that person replaced. It should not be a gamble when you order any equipment, especially not a $1100 amplifier, and we refuse to be a company with a reputation for poor quality control. When you order a MicroZOTL2 you should expect to get an amp that functions and sounds just as a MicroZOTL2 should. And so we will do everything we can to make that happen, though it may interrupt our record of shipping orders almost immediately. 
  
 Now lets talk about tubes or something. Have I already asked what people's experiences with other, non-Tung-Sol new production tubes have been with the MicroZOTL2?


----------



## doctorjazz

WEll, I've tried 3 different sets of tubes, not the most expensive, but not inexpensive either, usually on a recommendation. These were the Hytron 6SN7GT, the RCA 6SN7GT, and the SiemensE81cc (12AT7). Without going into a ton of detail now, I found they generally did some things better, say, increase tonal richness or bass richness, but there was a trade off. I felt the open wide soundstage and the naturual open space between instruments was decreased. I actually went back to the stock for now (I did all this one at a time, one of these days I'll try the Hytron and the Siemens, which I both did find made improvements in some ways. Didn't love the RCAs).
My $0.02, ymmv, and all the usual disclaimers.


----------



## donlin

willsw said:


> Just heard from bazelio about his replacement amp, which I tested and was perfect on shipment - only to arrive with left-channel noise. It's possible that when air travel is involved in shipment, tubes can become loose and only need to be adjusted. If that's the case, we'll have to figure out a solution. If the problem isn't that simple, Linear Tube Audio may have to put shipments of new units on a short hold until the problem is found and if traced to a single source in the manufacturing team, that person replaced. It should not be a gamble when you order any equipment, especially not a $1100 amplifier, and we refuse to be a company with a reputation for poor quality control. When you order a MicroZOTL2 you should expect to get an amp that functions and sounds just as a MicroZOTL2 should. And so we will do everything we can to make that happen, though it may interrupt our record of shipping orders almost immediately.
> 
> Now lets talk about tubes or something. Have I already asked what people's experiences with other, non-Tung-Sol new production tubes have been with the MicroZOTL2?


 

 A couple thoughts:
  
 Of all the tube equipment I've bought over the years, I think this is the only piece that has the tubes installed when shipped.  With all others, the tubes are in boxes and the user installs them.
  
 If some of these issues are due simply to loose or faulty tubes, it might be helpful if you would let people know that it's ok to push them in, switch the tubes etc.  It seems like there are some buyers here that are completely new to tube gear and afraid to even touch the tubes.


----------



## bazelio

donlin said:


> willsw said:
> 
> 
> > Just heard from bazelio about his replacement amp, which I tested and was perfect on shipment - only to arrive with left-channel noise. It's possible that when air travel is involved in shipment, tubes can become loose and only need to be adjusted. If that's the case, we'll have to figure out a solution. If the problem isn't that simple, Linear Tube Audio may have to put shipments of new units on a short hold until the problem is found and if traced to a single source in the manufacturing team, that person replaced. It should not be a gamble when you order any equipment, especially not a $1100 amplifier, and we refuse to be a company with a reputation for poor quality control. When you order a MicroZOTL2 you should expect to get an amp that functions and sounds just as a MicroZOTL2 should. And so we will do everything we can to make that happen, though it may interrupt our record of shipping orders almost immediately.
> ...


 
  
 Yep, I was going to mention the same thing regarding the tubes being shipped pre-installed.
  
 In any event, I'm going to remove and reseat all 4 tubes tonight to see if it makes a difference.  Fingers crossed.


----------



## Angaria

If anyone in Chicago has a zotl2, curious how it sounds compared to my transcendent minibeast otl on my he1k.  They're about the same price.  Happy to host.


----------



## willsw

angaria said:


> If anyone in Chicago has a zotl2, curious how it sounds compared to my transcendent minibeast otl on my he1k.  They're about the same price.  Happy to host.


 
  
 I've been looking at those. If anyone in the DC area has a minibeast, I'd love to compare. It doesn't look like I'll be running into Transcendent Sound at any audio shows.


----------



## Angaria

FWIW, I've been on a long audio quest, through dozens of amps, and for the first time I'd say I'm quite content with this setup. That of course doesn't prevent me from trying to be happier


----------



## Hifi01170

It seems quite a few people here have had a chance to compare the microZOTL 2 vs the Cavalli Liquid Carbon. Any feedbacks?


----------



## sheldaze

hifi01170 said:


> It seems quite a few people here have had a chance to compare the microZOTL 2 vs the Cavalli Liquid Carbon. Any feedbacks?


 
 I think you'll find a few impressions as well in the Liquid Carbon threads.
  
 ::
  
 I am about to do precisely that comparison, between MicroZOTL2 and Liquid Carbon. However I ask you, which headphones are you most interested in using? For me personally, I need to try at least four different styles of headphones:
  

high current planar (i.e. HE1K)
high voltage dynamic (i.e. HD800)
darkish (i.e. HD650)
inexpensive (i.e K7XX, Grado)
  
 So it will be a while for me to personally evaluate. But I could certainly direct my efforts, if possible, towards listening first to a comparable headphone for what you are planning to use - if I have it, and know what your specific category of headphone would be.


----------



## zachawry

For me, the Carbon was more vibrant, but also more coarse. It was more fatiguing to listen to. 
  
 The MZ2 has more air, more detail, more clarity. I find myself listening to more complete albums on the MZ2. 
  
 In the end, to me the LC, while great (especially for the price), lacked a certain cohesiveness. All the individual sounds sounded good, but they were fragmented, at least to my ear. The MZ2 brings everything back together into one cohesive whole. 
  
 I used the Ethers, Alpha Primes, and Sennheiser IE800 IEMs.


----------



## doctorjazz

zachawry said:


> For me, the Carbon was more vibrant, but also more coarse. It was more fatiguing to listen to.
> 
> The MZ2 has more air, more detail, more clarity. I find myself listening to more complete albums on the MZ2.
> 
> ...




I've posted impressions of the two a few times in these threads, this is a very goods summary of what I found as well. The LC is quite good sounding at its price...ZOTL is much better sounding (I also have the RSA HR-2, it's as good as the LC imo, though it doesn't sound the same).


----------



## Hifi01170

My goto headphones are the HD800 and the HE5LE... "Soon" I'll have the TH-X00 which might pair well with the microZOTL 2...


----------



## jamato8

I have found the micro to work very well, excellent with the HE1000 and the Pioneer SE Master 1. Great sound and openness with excellent dynamics and transparency.


----------



## zachawry

I'm probably worrying too much, but I often swap out headphones 2-3 times a day (open and closed, depending on whether or not I'm alone). 
  
 Will the 1/4" jack wear out eventually?


----------



## krumley7882

zachawry said:


> I'm probably worrying too much, but I often swap out headphones 2-3 times a day (open and closed, depending on whether or not I'm alone).
> 
> Will the 1/4" jack wear out eventually?




Makes Two!


----------



## bazelio

Will, all,
  
 This evening I successfully debugged the left channel sputter in my MicroZotl2.  You're going to love this (or not)....
  
 * Good news: Problem solved.
  
 * Bad news: The first unit Will sent me probably suffered from the same effect - and is therefore probably just fine also!!
  
 * What happened:  So tonight I opened her up and removed and reseated all tubes.  No dice.  The problem existed regardless of tube seating.  I also observed that the static sputter was present in the left channel even after swapping the left and right channel tubes.  Further, I noticed that the culprit was the left input tube (the smaller tube - 12AT7).  It was clearly exhibiting microphonic (or antenna-like) tendencies.  With the unit powered up, if I placed my hand in between the left input tube and the tall 22000uF cap, the sputtering would amplify.  As I moved my finger towards the tube, the noise would change.  The right input tube was immune, though.  Touching it and waiving my hand around it had no effect.  I then realized its proximity to a high frequency noise source - my WiFi router - could be the root cause.  Upon unplugging the router - PRESTO - complete silence from the Microzotl2.  And with more physical distance between the Microzotl2 and the Wifi router (when plugged in), the problem does not surface either.
  
 Will please contact me offline.  I'm fully open to recouping your cost for the return shipment on the first unit.  I probably should have thought of this first, but it only occurred to me that this must be environmental after you mentioned offline that you had personally tested the unit and deemed it perfect.
  
 Now on to the good stuff - the listening....
  
 The very first word I will use to describe the Microzotl2 is *PEPPY* ! !


----------



## willsw

bazelio said:


> Now on to the good stuff - the listening....


 
  
 This is very good for me to read. A weight that has been pressing has slightly lifted. Most of our returns have had to do with noise that we can't hear when the units are returned, which has been perplexing. We'll be sending emails asking about possible similarities in set-ups. A strange thing is, though, that I have been doing all of my headphone testing with the amp about three feet away from the router in the workshop. 
  
 Mark is visiting David Berning tomorrow, so I'll make sure this is discussed. Ideally we can figure out a way to avoid this happening without necessitating a change in the arrangement of everything else around the amp. Mark just responded with possibly offering a metal cover, which we've been considering anyway because a few people have asked for the option. We'll be working on it. 
  
 Mr. bazelio, the shipping has absolutely been worth it, as you now have an amp that functions correctly, peppily, for your evaluation, and we have another line of troubleshooting to use before sending out another UPS return label.
  
 If only our amp wasn't so darn silent that you can hear every bit of invasive noise when noise is invading . . .


----------



## bazelio

Well, see it doesn't take much separation to quell the noise......
  
  
 Noisy:
  

  
  
  
  
  
 Not noisy:


----------



## krumley7882

willsw said:


> If only our amp wasn't so darn silent that you can hear every bit of invasive noise when noise is invading . . .


 
 Complete Silence.  So peaceful.


----------



## bmichels

bazelio said:


>


 
  
 could you please comment on how well the Microzzotl2 pair with the Ether C ?  is it good synergy ?


----------



## bazelio

bmichels said:


> could you please comment on how well the Microzzotl2 pair with the Ether C ?  is it good synergy ?


 
  
  
 The microZOTL is a capable amp.  It makes easy work of driving the planar ETHER-Cs.  At approx 10:00 on the volume dial, it's probably louder than I would normally listen.
  
 Now, so far, I'm going to characterize the microZOTL as a touch bright (just a touch) and definitely forward in the mids and upper mids.  With my Zana Deux, I haven't been tempted to move to the ETHER-C 1.1 tuning but with the microZOTL (which is what I purchased to drive the ETHER-Cs at work) I'm definitely going to install the 1.1 tuning pads.  Most likely later today.


----------



## jamato8

bazelio said:


> The microZOTL is a capable amp.  It makes easy work of driving the planar ETHER-Cs.  At approx 10:00 on the volume dial, it's probably louder than I would normally listen.
> 
> Now, so far, I'm going to characterize the microZOTL as a touch bright (just a touch) and definitely forward in the mids and upper mids.  With my Zana Deux, I haven't been tempted to move to the ETHER-C 1.1 tuning but with the microZOTL (which is what I purchased to drive the ETHER-Cs at work) I'm definitely going to install the 1.1 tuning pads.  Most likely later today.


 

 Try some round plate VT99 tubes with an adapter or some Tungsol 6SN7 round plate. The input tubes, with their influence can easily change the character of the amp. The most neutral tube amp I have ever heard.


----------



## bazelio

I'm not familiar with the VT99s, but I think I'd start with the input stage anyhow.  I'm thinking a pair of old stock Mullard 12at7 is a good first guess.  Though some previous thread comments seem to indicate the MZ2 might be less responsive to tube rolling than others?
  
 Early thoughts on the microZOTL2 follow.
  
 My eval setup is simple:
 Mac Pro running Amarra for Tidal FLAC --> Mojo Audio Mystique V2 DAC --> microZOTL2 --> ETHER-C cans (still using 1.0 tuning)
  
 1. This is a very energetic tube amp.  Particularly in the treble region.  Blindfold your friend, and he'll first wonder if he's listening to a solid state amp.... 
 2. The soundstage is nice, as expected.  The blindfolded friend will start to wonder which solid state amp can throw this kind of staging.  I would guess that with choice tube rolling, imaging can become more precise too.
 3. At its price point, it just does a whole lot very well.  It's clean, crisp, relatively uncolored, and super detailed (more on that below, though).  Comparing this to my recollection of amps such as the Cavalli LC, the AGD NFB-1, sub-$1k Schitt gear...  it's a no brainer for me.  The microZOTL is the bees knees among them.
  
 Nitpicks:
  
 1. I'd look to tame the energetic mid and upper-mid ranges.  I'd characterize it as having a bit of glare in this region, which is common with stock Russian tubes anyhow.  Not unexpected.  And I wouldn't call it overly harsh either, just that I think it can be improved.
 2. The hyper detailed forward sound is what I'd consider "clinical".  For example, if I were a headphone or DAC manufacturer, I might consider this a great R&D device because everything is right up front and easy to evaluate.  But the downside is this becomes less euphonious, and this is my biggest nitpick.  I feel, particularly in live recordings that I'm intimately familiar with, details and micro details aren't as layered and nuanced as they should be.  Instead of a presentation with depth, this amp takes a more brute force approach of putting all the details right in front of you.
 3. It's a tad thin.  Not terribly so.  But the somewhat thin lower-mid to upper-bass region is also contributing to the hyper detailed presentation. 
  
 I do want to try Mullard and Telefunken 12AT7 pairs.  The former is going to impart some warmth, possibly expand the soundstage, and maintain the airy high end.  The latter was my favorite tube in the 12AX7 variant for a homemade headphone amp long gone now... about 15 years ago.    Man, I'm getting old.  But 12**7 Teles are just super transparent without the slightest hint of glare in my previous experience, and I've always known I'd come back to them.
  
 Lastly...  I'm quite curious to hear what a good LPS does.  
  
 And that's all for now folks...


----------



## doctorjazz

What are 12**7 Tele?


----------



## bazelio

doctorjazz said:


> What are 12**7 Tele?


 
  
 Well, in this case, 12AT7 Telefunkens.


----------



## doctorjazz

Well, so far I've tried3 sets of NOS tubes, gotten from supposedly reputable dealers. Started with the RCA 6SC7GT, didn't like them, narrow stage. The Hytron 6SN7GT were better, used them for a bit, then went back to the stock (some more color in the mids, less air/space/openness). Then tried Siemens E81CC (12AT7), similar impression to the Hytron, now back to the stock. Not the most expensive tubes out there by any means, about $150/pair average, so far the tube rolling hasn't gotten me to better sound than the stock (trade offs, where some aspects are better, some not as good). One of these days, out of curiosity, I'll try the Hytron and the Siemens at the same time...
My $0.02


----------



## krumley7882

doctorjazz said:


> Well, so far I've tried3 sets of NOS tubes, gotten from supposedly reputable dealers. Started with the RCA 6SC7GT, didn't like them, narrow stage. The Hytron 6SN7GT were better, used them for a bit, then went back to the stock (some more color in the mids, less air/space/openness). Then tried Siemens E81CC (12AT7), similar impression to the Hytron, now back to the stock. Not the most expensive tubes out there by any means, about $150/pair average, so far the tube rolling hasn't gotten me to better sound than the stock (trade offs, where some aspects are better, some not as good). One of these days, out of curiosity, I'll try the Hytron and the Siemens at the same time...
> My $0.02


 

 thanks for sharing your experience!


----------



## krumley7882

What I love is when a song I have been listening to for years can give me chills again.
  
  
  
  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KehwyWmXr3U
  
  
  
  
 ZOTL!


----------



## sheldaze

I had quite a different experience today, first day listening to my MicroZOTL2. I don't think there was much to my setup, but people do focus on the details. It was primarily sourced from Tidal with an occasional song thrown in, already loaded onto my iPad:
  
 Apple iPad --> Pure i-20 --> Toslink --> Chord Mojo --> MicroZOTL2
  
 I used both HD800S and HE-1000. After a point though, I decided it truly did not matter. I was digging the sound of both, and actually forgot which ones were on my head. I was instead pulling sounds from the dead. David Bowie singing Space Oddity had never spoken to me as it did today. The amazing expression in the voice of Freddy Mercury from Bohemian Rhapsody gave me chills regarding his untimely death. Ronnie Van Zant singing out the tuneful lines from Free Bird. The harmony of Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young (on guitar) on their album So Far is of course _the album_ that started my journey into the world of headphone listening, with my purchase of HD650 back in the early 2000's. I listened today to Helplessly Hoping, Find the Cost of Freedom, and Suite: Judy Blue Eyes, like the songs were new.
  
 I am digging the MicroZOTL2, definitely.


----------



## willsw

I must confess: all this talk of tube rolling has me looking at tube classifieds. 
  
 The bass of the MicroZOTL, since the original, has always been a point of, let's say, note. A part of the sound signature; a result, I imagine, of the very linear frequency response. From what I've read about tube rolling with the amp (@Hirsch calls it a chameleon here), the MicroZOTL is very willing to accommodate the qualities of different tubes. Secret Insider Info►►►we are currently _*considering*_ (note the double emphasis on that word) changing at least a pair of the stock tubes if we can find other tubes that are: 1.new production 2.definitely sound better and improve the bass and 3.can be implemented without changing the price of the amp. Also _*considering *_offering optional tube upgrades if we can't find ones that fit requirement 3. We are still in the planning stage of this and have not tested any tubes, we just have a list of ones we'd like to. And, we're quite fond of the Tung-Sols currently playing all positions in our lineup, so we'll see. 
  
 Bazelio, thanks for the detailed initial impressions. Though I'd usually recommend letting the stock tubes burn in during the trial period and not switch things out (in addition to the removal of the cover usually voiding the "risk-free" element of the in-home trial return policy), as we requested that you already take the cover off and switch tubes around, I'd say go for it regarding any rolling you want to do and have tubes to do it with.


----------



## bazelio

@willsw - I'll be keeping the microZOTL2 anyhow.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
 Matched pairs on their way to me:

(testing as new) Mullard 12AT7/ECC81 (D-getter)
(true NOS - sealed cartons!) Telefunken 12AT7/ECC81  (diamond botton)
(testing as new) Raytheon VT-231 (black flat plates)
  
  
 Oh and for those interested in tube rolling, here's the famous Dennis Boyle 6SN7 (and variants) breakdown:
  
 VT-231 Tungsol, round black plates - Clean, fast, the best in everything
 VT-231 Raytheon, black flat plates - like the Tungsol a little sweeter
 VT-231 RCA, black plates, rich harmonics like a 5692, wide soundstage
 VT-231 Ken-Rad, flat black plates - Great Bass, drive, sweet midrange 
 VT-231 National Union - good drive and great midrange, softer bass
 VT-231 Sylvania, black plates, wide bandwidth, delicate & laid back
 6SN7WGT, Sylvania Metal rim, big tube, big sound, super soundstage
 6SN7WGT, Sylvania, Long Plate, same big tube minus the metal rim
 6SN7WGT, Syl Standard Black Plate, transparant, images very well
 6SN7WGT, Syl Green Label, like the Standard but front row center 
 6SN7GTA, General Electric Black Plate, the great driver tube?
 6SN7WGTA, Syl black base green label, another great driver tube 
 6SN7GT, CBS Black Plate, very good tube, quiet, and musical
 6SN7GT, Sylvania or RCA Black Plate, very good and easy to find
 5692, CBS-Hytron, fast, good dynamics, lot of air and great timbre
 5692, RCA Red Base, very warm sweet sound, great on voices and jazz
 6SN7GTB, RCA, sounds like a 5692 with slight veiling
 6SN7GTB, Syl, like the Syl militaries but not as focused or quiet
 6SN7GTB, G.E, Gray plates, work horse, lacks refinement, a good tube


----------



## doctorjazz

willsw said:


> I must confess: all this talk of tube rolling has me looking at tube classifieds.
> 
> The bass of the MicroZOTL, since the original, has always been a point of, let's say, note. A part of the sound signature; a result, I imagine, of the very linear frequency response. From what I've read about tube rolling with the amp (@Hirsch calls it a chameleon here), the MicroZOTL is very willing to accommodate the qualities of different tubes. Secret Insider Info►►►we are currently _*considering*_ (note the double emphasis on that word) changing at least a pair of the stock tubes if we can find other tubes that are: 1.new production 2.definitely sound better and improve the bass and 3.can be implemented without changing the price of the amp. Also _*c[COLOR=0000FF]o[/COLOR][COLOR=EE82EE]n[/COLOR][COLOR=FF0000]s[/COLOR][COLOR=008000]i[/COLOR][COLOR=A52A2A]d[/COLOR][COLOR=40E0D0]e[/COLOR][COLOR=FFD700]r[/COLOR][COLOR=0000CD]i[/COLOR][COLOR=800080]n[/COLOR]g*_ offering optional tube upgrades if we can't find ones that fit requirement 3. We are still in the planning stage of this and have not tested any tubes, we just have a list of ones we'd like to. And, we're quite fond of the Tung-Sols currently playing all positions in our lineup, so we'll see.
> 
> Bazelio, thanks for the detailed initial impressions. Though I'd usually recommend letting the stock tubes burn in during the trial period and not switch things out (in addition to the removal of the cover usually voiding the "risk-free" element of the in-home trial return policy), as we requested that you already take the cover off and switch tubes around, I'd say go for it regarding any rolling you want to do and have tubes to do it with.




I, for one, would be interested if you guys found and could supply (or point us to) recommended tubes, as a tube novice without the time to spend trying them all out (not to mention the dollars, which add up quickly on good tubes).


----------



## donlin

doctorjazz said:


> I, for one, would be interested if you guys found and could supply (or point us to) recommended tubes, as a tube novice without the time to spend trying them all out (not to mention the dollars, which add up quickly on good tubes).




With new production being a requirement, there aren't many options for 6SN7's. As far as I know, the only other non-chinese is Electro Harmonix which isn't as good as the Tung Sol. The Gold Lion 12AT7 might be worth a try.


----------



## zachawry

bazelio said:


> @willsw - I'll be keeping the microZOTL2 anyhow.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Here are the RCA VT231/6SNGT I have on the way to me: 
  
 https://tubedepot.com/products/rca-vt231-6sn7gt-smoked-glass
  
 It's hard to tell if these tubes are the  "VT-231 RCA, black plates" you mention, the "6SN7GT, Sylvania or RCA Black Plate," or something else all together. 
  
 (I also have the NOS-12AT7-MULLARD 12AT7 / ECC81 coming.)


----------



## Hifi01170

bazelio said:


> Will, all,
> 
> This evening I successfully debugged the left channel sputter in my MicroZotl2.  You're going to love this (or not)....
> 
> ...


 
  
 hi there,
  
 Came to the exact same conclusion 2 days ago. But placing my big theta DAC above my router/box solved the issue of interferences for me.
 So all is well. 
  
 Same analysis of the sound signature as some of the others have reported. A bit on the bright side... a bit of glare in the treble region maybe.
 Will try with my other "new" theta DAC i have just acquired.... this has that theta bass that I have been reading so far. So might be a good synergy with the ZOTL 2!
  
 I will try to report back in a couple of days.
  
 Cheers guys!
  
 PS: special thanks to Willsw and Mark who replied very very quickly and for being open and proactive to check on their side about this issue.
 Great customer service!


----------



## yukihasi

PSVANE has some decent new production tubes at reasonable price.


----------



## audionewbi

Spend the last 3 hours reading the last 28 pages, I I learned so much about this amp. I am sold and I look forward to mid March on the speculated information regarding possible changes on the ZOTL.


----------



## bazelio

zachawry said:


> bazelio said:
> 
> 
> > @willsw - I'll be keeping the microZOTL2 anyhow.
> ...


 
  
 He does not seem to mention that RCA black glass tubes.  There are a few things conspicuously missing from the list like the 3-hole Sylvania "Bad Boys" which should be in the top 2 or 3 for the 6SN7.


----------



## jamato8

bazelio said:


> He does not seem to mention that RCA black glass tubes.  There are a few things conspicuously missing from the list like the 3-hole Sylvania "Bad Boys" which should be in the top 2 or 3 for the 6SN7.


 

 A matter of opinion and implementation on the 3 hole. I have a bunch of NOS and for me, I enjoy other tubes more in the micro. I still prefer the VT99 round plate grid cap tubes but also enjoy the Tungsol Black Glass round plate, which I also have in NOS.


----------



## bazelio

jamato8 said:


> bazelio said:
> 
> 
> > He does not seem to mention that RCA black glass tubes.  There are a few things conspicuously missing from the list like the 3-hole Sylvania "Bad Boys" which should be in the top 2 or 3 for the 6SN7.
> ...




Could you describe the characteristics of each ? Are the VT99 with adapter too tall for the stock cover?


----------



## zachawry

OK, silly question: How do you take off the cover? My tubes just arrived, and I tried to open up the cover with my trusty hex-wrench set, but none of the sizes seem to fit. Is there a specific size of hex tool you need, or what? 
  
 Thanks!
  
 Arrghh......


----------



## bazelio




----------



## zachawry

Thanks!

Off to the hardware store. Hopefully they carry 7/64" in Japan!

(This is one of those things that would have been nice in the box....)


----------



## jamato8

bazelio said:


> Could you describe the characteristics of each ? Are the VT99 with adapter too tall for the stock cover?


 

 Mark has made some tops with a round hole cut out for each tube. I bought the adapters from HK on eBay. Great price and extremely high quality. The sound is very open, excellent dynamics and transparency. Bass definition is clean and tight.


----------



## doctorjazz

OK, @jamato8, which tubes are you using that need the adaptor (and the open top)? (But, I'm out of the tube rolling game, as I said... )


----------



## zachawry

Am listening to the Mullard 4024 12AT7s right now. 
  
 First impression is greater richness of the mids/lows. Gotta listen a lot more, though. 
  
 Will, I seriously suggest putting in a hex wrench of the correct size, especially for overseas orders. I went to a huge hardware store here in Japan, and almost all the hex wrenches were in mm. They had a few inch-based ones, but most of those were larger. There was literally one set with 7/64" out of an entire section. So, including a $.25 wrench in international orders, at least, might go a long way towards saving someone some grief.


----------



## doctorjazz

I'm not getting more tubes...I'm not, I'm really not...I tell you, I'm not getting any more, no way, no how...


----------



## jhljhl

doctorjazz said:


> I'm not getting more tubes...I'm not, I'm really not...I tell you, I'm not getting any more, no way, no how...


 
  
  
 "Just when I thought I was out they pull me back in..."  The tube Godfather.


----------



## willsw

zachawry said:


> Will, I seriously suggest putting in a hex wrench of the correct size, especially for overseas orders. I went to a huge hardware store here in Japan, and almost all the hex wrenches were in mm. They had a few inch-based ones, but most of those were larger. There was literally one set with 7/64" out of an entire section. So, including a $.25 wrench in international orders, at least, might go a long way towards saving someone some grief.


 
  
 This has actually come up a few times recently, especially when we were worried that the tubes were starting to come unseated during shipping - we also just didn't know how easy it would be to find the right sized hex wrench internationally. Maybe it was really easy! I guess not. Tomorrow we're having a meeting, so I'll put it high on the priorities. Just looked up prices for vendors we already use and found the best one, so an order for them will most-likely be placed soon.


----------



## zachawry

This whole "Wait 5 minutes after turning off the device, and tubes need dozens of hours of burn-in time anyway" thing is quite a bother. 
  
 I need 2 (at least!) MZ2 units to audition new tubes with, so I can A/B instantaneously.


----------



## EdmontonCanuck

zachawry said:


> This whole "Wait 5 minutes after turning off the device, and tubes need dozens of hours of burn-in time anyway" thing is quite a bother.
> 
> I need 2 (at least!) MZ2 units to audition new tubes with, so I can A/B instantaneously.


 
 I'm sure Will will happily accept your order for a second MZ2


----------



## bazelio

Including a hex wrench seems like a good idea.  Or maybe just change to metric bolts.  Metric wrenches are common in the USA.  Half the stuff I have is metric already.


----------



## willsw

bazelio said:


> Including a hex wrench seems like a good idea.  Or maybe just change to metric bolts.  Metric wrenches are common in the USA.  Half the stuff I have is metric already.


 
@zachawry Hex wrench to be ordered and will be included from now on.
  
 And many other things!


----------



## donlin

willsw said:


> @zachawry Hex wrench to be ordered and will be included from now on.
> 
> And many other things!


 

 What are the other things?  We early adopters would like to know.


----------



## willsw

donlin said:


> What are the other things?  We early adopters would like to know.




Many other things planned for the future, as the wrench was just one topic of a management meeting today. As soon as anything is a functioning reality, we'll let you know, and I'll always be strongly in favor, as I believe Mark is as well, of making sure the early adopters are considered with any significant upgrade or change.


----------



## donlin

willsw said:


> Many other things planned for the future, as the wrench was just one topic of a management meeting today. As soon as anything is a functioning reality, we'll let you know, and I'll always be strongly in favor, as I believe Mark is as well, of making sure the early adopters are considered with any significant upgrade or change.


 

 Thanks, glad to hear that.  I know there's a certain amount of risk you take when jumping in early on a new product and thankfully my amp has worked flawlessly, but at some point it starts to feel like the early customers are used as a way to work out all the bugs.  That's a big reason why I still dislike Audeze so much.


----------



## willsw

donlin said:


> Thanks, glad to hear that.  I know there's a certain amount of risk you take when jumping in early on a new product and thankfully my amp has worked flawlessly, but at some point it starts to feel like the early customers are used as a way to work out all the bugs.  That's a big reason why I still dislike Audeze so much.




I suppose it is inevitable with new companies, but I've had several conversations with Mark when brainstorming about larger changes regarding how to make these available as cheaply and easily to those who have supported us already, and I know that this whole company was started mostly out of Mark's desire for others to experience what he believes us the pinnacle of tube amplification, so if we get it sounding better, I have no doubt he'll want everyone's amp sounding better if we can figure out realistic ways to do that.


----------



## donlin

willsw said:


> I suppose it is inevitable with new companies, but I've had several conversations with Mark when brainstorming about larger changes regarding how to make these available as cheaply and easily to those who have supported us already, and I know that this whole company was started mostly out of Mark's desire for others to experience what he believes us the pinnacle of tube amplification, so if we get it sounding better, I have no doubt he'll want everyone's amp sounding better if we can figure out realistic ways to do that.


 

 Excellent.


----------



## krumley7882

willsw said:


> I suppose it is inevitable with new companies, but I've had several conversations with Mark when brainstorming about larger changes regarding how to make these available as cheaply and easily to those who have supported us already, and I know that this whole company was started mostly out of Mark's desire for others to experience what he believes us the pinnacle of tube amplification, so if we get it sounding better, I have no doubt he'll want everyone's amp sounding better if we can figure out realistic ways to do that.


 

 Thanks so much Will. Really appreciate your  ethos and it shows how much you truly care by engaging and being responsive to community feedback/supporting early customers as the company evolves!


----------



## bazelio

For example, it sounds like the LPS option will be available to early adopters at a discount?  This is a good move and, like I said before, shows they're in the business of winning and keeping customers.


----------



## zachawry

OK, I have officially entered tube la-la land. I was not thrilled with my RCA grey glass VT231s (6SN7). I only had them on a few minutes, but they seemed pretty dull and veiled. Totally willing to write them off as a very expensive failed experiment. 
  
 I took the VT231s out, put back in the stock 6SN7s, then burned in my Mullard 4024s (12AT7) for about 20 hours. I thought they added a little meat to the sound, a little depth, but not a major difference. 
  
 Then, I kept the Mullards in, and put the RCA back in at the same time. Total transformation. I don't know if it's a synergy thing or not, but the two old sets of tubes, when used together, bring a very different sound. Incredibly warm and holographic, but not veiled (OK, maybe a tiny bit veiled). There is a little less space and air, two things which I really liked about the amp to begin with, but now there's an ineffable magic. 
  
 To be honest, I'm not sure if I want to stick with this combination permanently. There is color that wasn't there before, but it's *such a nice color*!


----------



## bazelio

zachawry said:


> OK, I have officially entered tube la-la land. I was not thrilled with my RCA grey glass VT231s (6SN7). I only had them on a few minutes, but they seemed pretty dull and veiled. Totally willing to write them off as a very expensive failed experiment.
> 
> I took the VT231s out, put back in the stock 6SN7s, then burned in my Mullard 4024s (12AT7) for about 20 hours. I thought they added a little meat to the sound, a little depth, but not a major difference.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Curious, do your Mullards have the D shaped getter?


----------



## jamato8

If NOS on the RCA grey glass, they would need the burn in but for me, I have never liked them, finding them dull, lacking in detail and transparency. I have NOS but they just don't float my boat and I have tried them in many different systems.


----------



## bazelio

And so it begins......
  
 I'm having a hard time thinking about tearing open the NOS cellophane on the Tele boxes.  I can't get myself to do it.  Might have to ship those off to someone else if I can't bear the thought.  LOL.
  
 The VT-231 Raytheons are cooking, though... And I'm about to get started listening.


----------



## bazelio

<I think I'm going to withdraw my impressions until I get through more listening with these Raytheons>
  
 Tube rolling with the ZOTL can get spendy.  Comparatively to my ZDS, there are more options and combinations realistically possible.  Oh well, I guess it's only money?


----------



## zachawry

jamato8 said:


> If NOS on the RCA grey glass, they would need the burn in but for me, I have never liked them, finding them dull, lacking in detail and transparency. I have NOS but they just don't float my boat and I have tried them in many different systems.


 

 Funny, because I'm more of a clarity and treble-head, but I really like what the RCA smoked glass tubes do. They do sacrifice some clarity and air, but they are so liquid and deep. And, well, smokey.
  
 Like I said, I doubt I'll want them on all the time, but for now it's a really nice change. I have some Sylvannias coming too.
  
 There are so many 12AT7 variants, but the 6SN7 choices really are much more limited.


----------



## donlin

bazelio said:


> And so it begins......
> 
> I'm having a hard time thinking about tearing open the NOS cellophane on the Tele boxes.  I can't get myself to do it.  Might have to ship those off to someone else if I can't bear the thought.  LOL.
> 
> The VT-231 Raytheons are cooking, though... And I'm about to get started listening.



Are you sure those Telefunkens are NOS? The boxes are identical to current production telefunkens. I guess they did a good job of copying the original.


----------



## bazelio

> Are you sure those Telefunkens are NOS? The boxes are identical to current production telefunkens. I guess they did a good job of copying the original.


 
  
  
 Yeah, 1960s most likely.  The newer boxes are not the same as the old stock boxes on all 4 sides...


----------



## donlin

bazelio said:


> Yeah, 1960s most likely.  The newer boxes are not the same as the old stock boxes on all 4 sides...



Interesting, thanks. Those must be great tubes.


----------



## bazelio

I don't know why, but original Telefunken boxes are pretty common.  I could be wrong about these being 1960s.  I'll have to look up date codes once I open these.
  
 But, for e.g., these are 1973 date coded 801S with boxes.  (The 801S are prohibitively expensive IMO)


----------



## donlin

Add the new Sennheiser HD800S to the list of phones that sound wonderful with microzotl2. I had owned the original HD800 twice in the past with some very expensive amps and was not a huge fan. This combo is great though, possibly the least glassy sounding piano I've heard.


----------



## bazelio

Interesting, donlin.  I don't think I'd have considered the unmodded HD800 a good match, and I have yet to hear the HD 800 S.  But Tyll's measurements and resulting EQ profile seem to indicate its quite a bit more tame with the 6k dampener.


----------



## jamato8

zachawry said:


> Funny, because I'm more of a clarity and treble-head, but I really like what the RCA smoked glass tubes do. They do sacrifice some clarity and air, but they are so liquid and deep. And, well, smokey.
> 
> Like I said, I doubt I'll want them on all the time, but for now it's a really nice change. I have some Sylvannias coming too.
> 
> There are so many 12AT7 variants, but the 6SN7 choices really are much more limited.


 

 The 6SN7 was one of the largest produced tubes there was. There are many, many varieties and variances in the tubes.


----------



## zachawry

bazelio said:


> Curious, do your Mullards have the D shaped getter?


 

 The getter is the wire at the very top, right? In this case, circular.


----------



## bazelio

More progress here.  (Tired of me in this thread yet?  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





)
  

  
  
 1960 Mullard 12AT7 D Getter.  Certainly showing signs of use: the flashing is aged, the pins have some oxidation (will take care of that later).  But they test strong, and sound very good.
  
 So far, I'm 2 for 2 on tube swaps.  Raytheon VT-231, now the Mullards.  More details on these tubes later.  For now, though, I can say my stock tubes have found a permanent resting spot on my shelf.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I've got a few other tricks up my sleeves yet ... notably a 12V 2.5A LPS build is under way.  High hopes there, and more details later.  Approx 2 weeks out.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Happy listening!!


----------



## RKML0007

Go go ... bazelio-ooooooo !!!!


----------



## jamato8

zachawry said:


> The getter is the wire at the very top, right? In this case, circular.


 

 Actually the getter is the silver coating on the inside of the glass. It was on wire when the tube was made and then flashed, which causes to to adhere to the glass. But most people refer to the wire as a round getter, square, horseshoe, etc., out of convenience.


----------



## doctorjazz

Don't stop the tube rolling...I'm on hiatus, back to stock, Bert still interested in what you folks find. I'll jump in again at some point.


----------



## TomekZ

Loving the microZOTL, esp. with a linear power supply. Bought a used older model Mojo Audio power supply. Made the upper mid - treble so much mellower & sweeter. This region really makes or breaks enjoyment of music/ audio equipment. I couldn't weight for Urban Audio to ready their own, but when it ships, I bet there will be a lot of positive comment. Also changing the 12at7 Tung-Sol for a Psvane pair made for an improvement: more open & full. Want to also say that Urban Audio stands behind this product: they quickly replaced my first one which had hum with my efficient Audioquest Nighthawk.


----------



## bazelio

@TomekZ
  
 Yeah, I suspect a LPS is going to have a more significant effect than tubes - and tubes will become icing on the cake.  I'm looking forward to making that upgrade, myself.  In the meantime, however, I'm pleased with what my tube selections have done - they've helped reduce the treble glare and forwardness, created a fuller and warmer sound overall, and have even expanded the soundstage.  So we are moving in the right direction!


----------



## nephilim

Speaking of tube rolling... I thought this would be much easier with the tubes being placed where they belong: on top of the amp such that I can behold the beautiful glow


----------



## svmusa

nephilim said:


> Speaking of tube rolling... I thought this would be much easier with the tubes being placed where they belong: on top of the amp such that I can behold the beautiful glow


 
 Yes, I did request Mark from urban Audio and he said they will consider having top cover with tube sockets...waiting to see if they will get to this in their future upgrade list.


----------



## nephilim

Oh, so they are seriously considering this? Would have saved me a couple of DIY hours.


----------



## bazelio

What kind of connection did you make at the sockets on the board?


----------



## zachawry

That is awesome! How much for you to make me one?

It appears you're running four 6SN7's, though. How does that work?


----------



## doctorjazz

Is it real?


----------



## zachawry

doctorjazz said:


> Is it real?


 

 I know. Looks awesome, doesn't it.
  
 Seriously, someone build me this and take my money.


----------



## svmusa

nephilim said:


> Oh, so they are seriously considering this? Would have saved me a couple of DIY hours.


 
 At least they told me multiple folks have requested, including me for tube rolling. Their best guess was to consider this in Spring. Your work is great, its not wasted by any means...


----------



## nephilim

Here are the ingredients:
  
 I measured the original cover and designed a new one with the following changes:
 1) Additional 4mm thickness by extruding the center portion of the cover towards the PCB. This gives enough flesh to almost fully hide the sockets within the cover and fix them via screws.
 2) I went for sharp corners next to the front plate
 3) Change of material to perspex/acrylic glass, as this can be polished - just in case I scratch it during assembly 
 4) holes for the new sockets 
  
 I bought some cheap sockets only to learn that they probably would not last long - and got more expensive ones instead.
  
 The wire I used is taken from Mogami Quad microphone cable (twisted pairs for each pin). For the heaters I use single wires with a larger diameter as, e.g., in case of two 6BL7 per socket I would need 3A per socket. I did not twist the heater wires as I use DC heating and (if I understood the physics correctly) the benefit of twisting the wires applies for AC only.
  
 The octal base is similar to this one:  http://www.ebay.de/itm/8-PIN-OCTAL-TUBE-BASE-/400725262974. After soldering I filled the base with epoxy resin.
  
 The noval base was more difficult. The best I found are these here: http://www.ebay.de/itm/221578180311. Soldering was easy but I highly doubt they are long lasting. My next iteration will use better sockets.
  
 The photo I showed yesterday uses 2 6BL7 tubes per socket. I really like single 6BL7 and was curious if a pair would improve sound - I am not convinced yet. The ZOTL sits on a Manson power supply for the heater current. It has three presets, e.g., 6.3V for 6SN7 and 12.6V for FDD20.
  
 Here are some more photos:
  
 The first iteration (Makrolon) - luckily the shop misinterpreted my drawings so I got another attempt for free 


 The final product (perspex)


----------



## doctorjazz

Impressive (but not really an option for those of us out there with 10 things...)


----------



## bazelio

3A per heater ... continuously????  Whhaaaaa!?


----------



## nephilim

No, 1.5A per tube. However, I am currently running two C3gS per socket (C3gs is a triode strapped pentode, hence two are needed to replace a double triode 6sn7). The sound stage widened, there is a lot of detail - I will stick to this for the next days. Oh, and heater current for those should be within the ZOTL spec.


----------



## jamato8

I would run 4 X 27 mesh plate tubes for the output. :^)


----------



## bazelio

nephilim said:


> No, 1.5A per tube. However, I am currently running two C3gS per socket (C3gs is a triode strapped pentode, hence two are needed to replace a double triode 6sn7). The sound stage widened, there is a lot of detail - I will stick to this for the next days. Oh, and heater current for those should be within the ZOTL spec.


 
  
  
 That's a ton, still.  The switching power supply itself is rated at 2.5A only, and I doubt the entire ZOTL draw anywhere near that when driving headphones at moderate volume.  I could be wrong, but I think you'd need some beefy offboard heat sinks on an LPS to sustain that kind of current.


----------



## nephilim

My first picture shows the ZOTL sitting on an external power supply. This is used for providing the 6SN7 (or replacement) heater current only. The ZOTL (incl. 12AT7 tubes) is fed via an SBooster power supply, which remains pretty cool even after hours  No harm is done to the ZOTL.
  
 For 6BL7 an external supply is definitely needed. Power requirement of four C3gS (4x0.37A) is slightly above the stock pair of 6SN7 (2x0.6A). But I will use the external PS in any case. What I haven't mentioned so far is that between the ZOTL PCB and my little soldering exercise I have added an octal socket saver where pin 7 & 8 (heater current) are not routed through but connected to wires - which go to the external PS.


----------



## dpump

​To Linear Tube Audio: When will we be able to purchase the new LPS?


----------



## doctorjazz

It was originally slated for sometime late this month, don't know if there's been any change...


----------



## bazelio

It should be at Canjam, which unfortunately I can not attend....  Check your emails.
  


> We are most excited about making CanJam SoCal the location of the public debut of our new *Linear Tube Audio Linear Power Supply*. The*LTA LPS* has been designed specifically for the MicroZOTL2. It's low heat, super quiet, has a very sturdy case, and a bunch of other specs you'd rather read on our website very soon. Basically, it's the power supply you've been asking for.


----------



## sheldaze

It has been making the rounds at recent meets. I heard it (only 30 seconds - meet was too busy). The question was when can we consumers purchase.
 And what @doctorjazz said is also the last information I saw.


----------



## bazelio

sheldaze said:


> It has been making the rounds at recent meets. I heard it (only 30 seconds - meet was too busy). The question was when can we consumers purchase.
> And what @doctorjazz said is also the last information I saw.


 
  
  
 I guess it's *possible* that they'd debut it at Canjam without making it available to purchase at that time...  I'd assumed they'd have units on hand for purchase, but you're right, it doesn't explicitly say so.


----------



## doctorjazz

They had the LPS at the winter NY area meet, but not for sale...


----------



## bazelio

doctorjazz said:


> They had the LPS at the winter NY area meet, but not for sale...


 
  
  
 Yeah, but they're calling this a "debut" at CanJam.  If it's not for sale, and has already been debuted, then why the announcement?
  
 In any event ... I just quoted the email in case others hadn't seen it.


----------



## willsw

Hey hey hey,  
  
 The prototype LPS has appeared a few places. We are debuting the production model, which is internally slightly different and has a different case.
  
 Tomorrow there will be another email sent around (apologies for two emails so quickly) which will inform everyone that the LPS is now available to order on Urbanhifi.com and that the units will begin shipping next Tuesday. There will also be some codes to enter at checkout that should be of interest to everyone.


----------



## bazelio

Alright, well, after having spent some extended time with the microZOTL now, I thought I'd go ahead and update the thread here.
 
The treble I first reported as not necessarily "harsh" did get the best of me.  Shortly it became clear that in its stock configuration, I was not going to enjoy extended listening sessions.  I think the best adjective to describe the general sound signature might be "glassy".  But my tube rolling experiments have paid off.  Still using the stock switch mode power supply, I have found the combination of Raytheon 6SN7s and Mullard 12AT7 do enough to take the edge off.  Neither one nor the other on their own suffice, but together the combination is a big step forward.  The glare has given way to a slight warmth.  The forward hyper-detailed presentation has mellowed out, but micro details are still resolved.  And even soundstage seems to have expanded for a more "out of head" sound.  With this combo, listening to an album such as Sara Barelleis' Brave Enough Live from start to finish is not only possible, but enjoyable.  The sound is simply more engaging, non-fatiguing, warmer and fuller, and now has me bouncing around in my music library eager to hear how my favorite tracks sound through the system.
 
By the way, an interesting tube I acquired on the cheap, which I think some have taken a liking to in the Torp3, is the Amperex 7062.  This seems to be a very transparent tube with an even more expansive soundstage than I'm currently experiencing with my Raytheon/Mullard tube combo in the microZOTL.  However its transparency did allow the glassy signature - particularly in female vocals - to emerge once again, so I felt the need to revert back to the Mullard 12AT7s.  And that's interesting because it seems the stock Tung Sols are not the source, but rather the amp (and/or PSU) itself.  Nevertheless, once my linear power supply is put together, I fully intend to come back to the 7062s in anticipation of a different sound altogether.  Oh and speaking of stuff yet to come, I also decided to experiment with round plate VT-99s - in this case National Union - so a pair of socket adapters are also on the way.  I suspect the main "advantage" of the VT-99s is going to be gaining access to round plate tubes, such as the Tung Sols, at a lower price than the 6SN7 versions.  Other folks do seem to claim further sonic differences as well, though.  So we will see.
 
Fun stuff!


----------



## yukihasi

LTA LPS ordered!


----------



## willsw

The Linear Power Supply is now available to order on Urbanhifi.com. Pictures and a product listing on the Linear Tube Audio website coming soon, I was late to my day job getting this out today. 

Official announcement HERE. For those of you already owning a MicroZOTL2, check code portion of your email, as it will be slightly different.

Also, you know, check your spam folders and stuff.


----------



## nephilim

Does the special offer for mZOTL owners also apply for customers outside the U.S.?


----------



## willsw

nephilim said:


> Does the special offer for mZOTL owners also apply for customers outside the U.S.?


 
 Of course, though shipping is still shipping. I'd send an email to sales@urbanhifi.com asking about that. 
  
 And if anyone should have gotten the already-an-owner email and did not, let us know and it'll be no problem sorting it out.


----------



## nephilim

Good news - thanks! I bought my mZOTL (via your official reseller?) in Vienna/Austria. I will contact him if he can pass that special offer on to me. On the other hand I feel curious if the LPS will yield a significant improvement over my current SBooster PSU.


----------



## willsw

We'll be sending him some units, I'm sure he'd be happy to let you come by and do some comparisons, if Vienna isn't too far from you.


----------



## doctorjazz

OK, placed the LPS order, curious to hear the changes...


----------



## zachawry

I look forward to ordering the LPS. I'm curious why we have to let them know if we live in Japan (which I do). 
  
 Everything else, including the MZ2 itself, seems to work perfectly well between the US and Japan, although I know the voltages are different.


----------



## doctorjazz

One of these days will try changing both sets of tubes, have only changed one at a time so far.


----------



## nephilim

OK, I understand that my set-up is somewhat special and -as long as there is no alternative amp cover available- not easy to replicate. So if you feel that tube rolling info going beyond 6SN7 territory is not useful please tell me to stop. Otherwise... just wanted to share my impressions of the Siemens configuration, i.e., Siemens E81CC tri-mica drivers and 4 C3gS (Siemens and Valvo but absolutely identical construction). Listenening via my HD800 three things are absolutely striking:
 1) Lots of detail which makes e.g. choir music highly enjoyable. I am able to discern much more voices than before. The sum of all those singers is very dense - not congested but rich and full. Instrument separation is top.
 2) If the source material goes deep that tube/amp combo goes deep, too. And it has a lot of power. While listening to cello music last night some notes seemed to go into my ears and from there onwards down the spine. I never had this experience before. The bass is tight, fast and accurate. Those tubes do not act as a permanent loudness correction which adds oomph to any music but delivers when asked for. Works brilliantly for the whole spectrum from electronic to orchestral music.
 3) Previously I found that the C3g tubes tend to be too bright. The current combination works much butter. There is still plenty of upper mids and treble but ithere is no harshness.
  
 I have a pair of Amperex 7062 which I plan to test throughout the next days. I am also curious how warmer drivers will work with the C3gS.


----------



## Hifi01170

have you guys noticed that the input amperage is not the same between units?
 Mine is 3.7A where as Bazelio's is 2.4 I think... why this difference? Am in Europe by the way...


----------



## willsw

hifi01170 said:


> have you guys noticed that the input amperage is not the same between units?
> Mine is 3.7A where as Bazelio's is 2.4 I think... why this difference? Am in Europe by the way...


 
  
 According to Mark, it's a case of mislabeling on early units. 2.4A is the max. And probably a case of misremembering resulted in early unit owners not being informed of this. I'll look into it when I'm in the office tomorrow.


----------



## bazelio




----------



## willsw

bazelio said:


> [Picture illustrating embarrassing inconsistency]


 
  
 Emailed Mark for clarification. I'm sure that since the question said 2.4v and Mark is in the workshop distracted he just said 2.4v in response to my email. I should make more phone calls.


----------



## jamato8

People are human after all and not machines. I don't see anything embarrassing. 
  
 How many have tried the 7062 tube? Nice box plates and the operating points are close to the 12AT7 with a little lower MU.


----------



## willsw

jamato8 said:


> People are human after all and not machines. I don't see anything embarrassing.
> 
> How many have tried the 7062 tube? Nice box plates and the operating points are close to the 12AT7 with a little lower MU.


 
  
 Not embarrassing embarrassing. Just one of those moments. A picture worth 1000 sighs. 
  
 2.5v confirmed as correct all around.


----------



## bazelio

jamato8 said:


> People are human after all and not machines. I don't see anything embarrassing.
> 
> How many have tried the 7062 tube? Nice box plates and the operating points are close to the 12AT7 with a little lower MU.


 
  
  
 7062 opens the soundstage and is neutral.  It didn't do much for the low end though.  I think I've only seen Amperex, but there are a couple varieties, like D foil getter, pinched waist, and vintages.   I've only tried the standard D foil getter, older vintage.  
  
 I reverted to Mullard 12AT7 to gain back some warmth, though I fully intend to go back to the 7062 after my LPS is ready.  I'm hoping the LPS cures some of what I'm using the Mullard to cure currently.


----------



## jamato8

bazelio said:


> 7062 opens the soundstage and is neutral.  It didn't do much for the low end though.  I think I've only seen Amperex, but there are a couple varieties, like D foil getter, pinched waist, and vintages.   I've only tried the standard D foil getter, older vintage.
> 
> I reverted to Mullard 12AT7 to gain back some warmth, though I fully intend to go back to the 7062 after my LPS is ready.  I'm hoping the LPS cures some of what I'm using the Mullard to cure currently.


 

 I think with the 7062 you might have been hearing some of the PS. The stock supply is very good but any edge at all is gone with the Mojo V and what remains is a very pure signal, IMO. I have some Amperex 7062 coming so will know in a few days how I like them.


----------



## doctorjazz

Think I'm about to order military Mullard 6sn7 tubes, darn...


----------



## willsw

I added a few pictures to the website: www.lineartubeaudio.com 
  
 Earlier in the thread I said that the linear power supply would be about the same size as the stock supply. This was a miscommunication; my apologies. The actual dimensions are 12" x 3.25" x 4.25".


----------



## claud W

Are there tubes in the LPS? If so, which ones? What does the LPS do for the sound vs stock PS?


----------



## nephilim

Looking at the photos on the urbanhifi website there are no tubes but a huge heatsink and capacitor inside.


----------



## bazelio

So it uses a (small) bridged rectifier, regulates the output with a basic IC regulator at the heatsink, and filters with a bunch of polymer capacitors.  Might wonder about failure rate with the high part count for all those filter caps, but otherwise a pretty basic circuit.


----------



## jamato8

bazelio said:


> So it uses a (small) bridged rectifier, regulates the output with a basic IC regulator at the heatsink, and filters with a bunch of polymer capacitors.  Might wonder about failure rate with the high part count for all those filter caps, but otherwise a pretty basic circuit.


 

 Over the years I have seen good caps seldom fail, rarely in fact. If you run them over voltage there is a problem but with the way caps are made now days, very few failures. They were running large banks of caps years ago without problems and caps have only gotten better. Plus with the open design of this PS, the caps are going to stay well below the temp range, which also extends life.


----------



## Compassionator

willsw said:


> I added a few pictures to the website: www.lineartubeaudio.com
> 
> Earlier in the thread I said that the linear power supply would be about the same size as the stock supply. This was a miscommunication; my apologies. The actual dimensions are 12" x 3.25" x 4.25".


 

 Did David Berning design this?  Or as least consulted and what are his findings regarding the LPS as far as improving the sound quality of the MICROZOTL2?  Thanks.


----------



## zachawry

My one concern is dust. With all those holes it seems inevitable that dust will accumulate inside over months and years.


----------



## jamato8

zachawry said:


> My one concern is dust. With all those holes it seems inevitable that dust will accumulate inside over months and years.


 

 You would have to live in a pretty dusty place for it to be a problem and if you get some, blow it out. :^)


----------



## jamato8

Just got some 7062 tubes. Sounding, very, very good. No real drop in output from the slightly lower gain.


----------



## saidentary

compassionator said:


> Did David Berning design this?  Or as least consulted and what are his findings regarding the LPS as far as improving the sound quality of the MICROZOTL2?  Thanks.


 
 I'd like to know the answers to these questions also.  Also, if some LPS units are already in consumers' possession, what are people's early impressions of the difference?
  
 That said, if David Berning didn't design it, that wouldn't be a deal-buster for me.  Not at all.  Look at how many glowing reviews the Mojo Joule V has gotten, and I'm pretty sure that it wasn't designed by David Berning.


----------



## saidentary

nephilim said:


> Speaking of tube rolling... I thought this would be much easier with the tubes being placed where they belong: on top of the amp such that I can behold the beautiful glow


 

 THAT.  IS.  SO. SO. *SO* COOL!


----------



## bazelio

Coming to a microZOTL near me soon..........


----------



## doctorjazz

LPS, I presume...waiting on mine as well!


----------



## Hifi01170

I have juste tested with a Teddy pardo LPS and couldn't detect any difference in sound!
 this LPS made a big difference with my dangerous source dac though.
 it is rated 2A only.... maybe that's why...


----------



## bazelio

hifi01170 said:


> I have juste tested with a Teddy pardo LPS and couldn't detect any difference in sound!
> this LPS made a big difference with my dangerous source dac though.
> it is rated 2A only.... maybe that's why...


 
  
 2A is probably fine.  I seriously doubt if you're driving headphones that 2A is required - certainly not continuously.
  
 Yes, drjazz, LPS - Sigma-11.  High hopes and fingers crossed.


----------



## willsw

compassionator said:


> Did David Berning design this?  Or as least consulted and what are his findings regarding the LPS as far as improving the sound quality of the MICROZOTL2?  Thanks.


 
  
 David Berning did not design this, Mark Schneider (who is an extremely experienced electrical engineer) designed it with some of David's linear power supplies in mind (David Berning currently only uses switching power supplies in his amps). Mark did consult David and took the final design to David before we went to production.


----------



## jamato8

It is a power supply outputting 12 volts. It isn't that hard but consideration needs to be made to get a clean signal, which is what this is all about. There is no reason D. Berning would need to be consulted. That would be like consulting amp makers before you plug into the wall unless you are plugging a 110-120 AC input amp into 220-240. Then you would need to consult, as in that case, you would be told, no, don't do that. :^)


----------



## jamato8

hifi01170 said:


> I have juste tested with a Teddy pardo LPS and couldn't detect any difference in sound!
> this LPS made a big difference with my dangerous source dac though.
> it is rated 2A only.... maybe that's why...


 

 I would want to use a beefier PS with the micro than that.


----------



## saidentary

bazelio said:


> Coming to a microZOTL near me soon..........


 
 Wow! Some heavy hitters in this thread.  That's impressive.  Is there a disproportionate number of electrical engineers posting to this thread?


----------



## bazelio

jamato8 said:


> It is a power supply outputting 12 volts. It isn't that hard but consideration needs to be made to get a clean signal, which is what this is all about. There is no reason D. Berning would need to be consulted. That would be like consulting amp makers before you plug into the wall unless you are plugging a 110-120 AC input amp into 220-240. Then you would need to consult, as in that case, you would be told, no, don't do that. :^)


 
  
 Heheh, yeah.  Aside from all those little filter caps for low ESR, LTA's LPS is a text book design.  What really matters?  Well, low noise, a steady 12V that is tolerant of line fluctuation, little to no dc offset, etc...  Not whether or not it was designed by physicists.     Not that there'd be anything wrong with that either, though.  Heh.


----------



## zachawry

jamato8 said:


> You would have to live in a pretty dusty place for it to be a problem and if you get some, blow it out. :^)


 

 So darn reasonable! I was imagining taking off the cover and spraying it with compressed air.


----------



## zachawry

When can we expect shipping on the power supplies? 
  
 Thx.


----------



## bazelio

zachawry said:


> jamato8 said:
> 
> 
> > You would have to live in a pretty dusty place for it to be a problem and if you get some, blow it out. :^)
> ...


 
  
 Probably won't be needed.  Computer innards get filthy from forced airflow through fans.  No such concern here.  Ventilation should only be a good thing.  BTW, this is what my email says regarding shipping:  "Units begin shipping March 22".


----------



## jamato8

Really liking the 7062 tubes. I prefer them to any 12AT7 I have. Defined bass, extended and very fast sounding. Beautiful tonality also.


----------



## Hifi01170

my 12V/2A teddy pardo LPS got way tooooo hot. So maybe 2A is not enough.


----------



## bazelio

hifi01170 said:


> my 12V/2A teddy pardo LPS got way tooooo hot. So maybe 2A is not enough.


 
  
 I mean even the big ones that are overkill for this amp, like the Joule V, is going to heat up.  It's the nature of a linear power supply.  I still maintain that the microZOTL most likely isn't drawing 2A _continuously_.  I'd also be interested in hearing from Mark, if he wants to chime in.


----------



## jamato8

Yes, linear power supplies will heat up but I still think 2 amps is too low. You don't have anywhere, no margin for error and when an amp first is turned on it pulls more current. I would prefer double to triple the needed amperes.


----------



## nephilim

I contacted the european seller before buying the sbooster psu. According to him the ZOTL draws something slightly above 2.2A during normal operation. The internal fuse blows at 2.5A.


----------



## bazelio

nephilim said:


> I contacted the european seller before buying the sbooster psu. According to him the ZOTL draws something slightly above 2.2A during normal operation. The internal fuse blows at 2.5A.




Remember it is a speaker amp too. Driving headphones at moderate volume should be less demanding. I don't see how there would headroom for speakers otherwise. The 6SN7 heater should be around an amp but not continuously.


----------



## krumley7882

I purchased the HDPlex 100W LPS (http://www.hd-plex.com/HDPLEX-Fanless-Linear-Power-Supply-for-PC-Audio-and-CE-device.html ) before the Microzotl LPS.  It has a max of 7a.  Definitely gets hot, but works wonderfully.  I would be interested to compare to the UrbanHifi LPS.  I noticed a marked difference in the noise floor and speed/clarity of the zotl with a LPS.


----------



## bazelio

That has a nice chassis.  For 7A, you'd definitely need the offboard heatsinking.


----------



## jamato8

The Mojo V is rated up to 10 amps. Now that would bet hot but for the micro it does fine and adds a solid foundation. I am looking forward to comparing it to the new PS for the micro.


----------



## TomekZ

Am using the Mojo Audio Joule version 3. Yes, compared to the SMPS, a more "solid foundation" and most of all a mellowing of the treble, especially the lower treble which allows for enjoyment of lesser quality recordings such as mp3. And the Mojo suppy also is smooother & cohesive. No turning back.


----------



## bazelio

doctorjazz said:


> Think I'm about to order military Mullard 6sn7 tubes, darn...


 
  
  
 A nice tube, but I'd recommend waiting until your LPS arrives and you spend time with it.
  
 If you want to hear my vintage Mullards, I'll loan them to you though.  As long as you don't put hundreds of hours on them.


----------



## zachawry

I just got my Telefunken ECC801S (used) and Sylvania 6SN7GTB (NOS), and I didn't feel like being very scientific, so I put them both in at once. 
  
 WOW! I'm not sure which (or both) is providing the magic, but there is some seriously amazing stuff going on between my ears right now. And I haven't even taken anything illegal!
  
 I can't believe that soon this rig will be sounding better, with the arrival of the LPS.


----------



## organ_donor

Did you pair the amp with Ether?
  
 Can you share your experience with it? Thanks!


----------



## doctorjazz

bazelio said:


> doctorjazz said:
> 
> 
> > Think I'm about to order military Mullard 6sn7 tubes, darn...
> ...




Thanks for the offer, may take you up on it, but I think I will wait on the LPS before buying more tubes.
So far, I have just changed 1 pair at a time, which led to nice sounds, different than stock, but wasn't convinced (I had a review to do for Headphone.Guru,com, and I went back to stock tubes, partly because I was unconvinced, partly because I was more familiar with the sounds with the stock tubes, so the cables I was reviewing were the only variable. Side note...NEVER volunteer to review cables  ). One of these days I need to change both sets and see what happens.


----------



## zachawry

organ_donor said:


> Did you pair the amp with Ether?
> 
> Can you share your experience with it? Thanks!


 

 I'm listening to it on Ethers right now. It's pretty amazing. Both the amp and Ethers are very neutral, though, so neutral better be your thing. 
  
 I'm actually expecting my Ether 1.1 upgrade "kit" to arrive in the next couple days, and I expect it will add some body to the sound.


----------



## doctorjazz

OK, did both, put in Hytron 6SN7GT's, and SiemanE82CC 3 MICA Munich (have no idea what that means, these are the 12AT7's).
Still not 100% convinced it's quite as open as the stock sound, but rich, plenty of air, think I'll go with these for a while...
Do have a smile on my face, listening th hi rez Workingman's Dead, life is good...


----------



## krumley7882

doctorjazz said:


> OK, did both, put in Hytron 6SN7GT's, and SiemanE82CC 3 MICA Munich (have no idea what that means, these are the 12AT7's).
> Still not 100% convinced it's quite as open as the stock sound, but rich, plenty of air, think I'll go with these for a while...
> Do have a smile on my face, listening th hi rez Workingman's Dead, life is good...





Was just listening to this myself! Such a joy. 

I've been following the tube rolling discussion. But waiting for the "this is the one!" Response. Which ones do you most prefer?


----------



## krumley7882

Hahah. I know nothing about tube swapping. Thanks


----------



## bazelio

You're going to have to spend some time with new tubes before settling in.  As far as openness goes, the MZ2 is pretty intimate in the first place, so a little change either way shouldn't be terribly dramatic in terms of soundstage.  I do think the 7062s open things up a bit, but the treble is not where I want it.


----------



## doctorjazz

Definitely leaving things to settle for a bit, just changed the tubes a short while ago (about 1 album worth of time). Know nothing about tubes myself, just purchases I got on recommendations, here and elsewhere. Have one more set, RCA 6SN7GT, didn't like them alone initially, may try them with the Siemans at some point, not just letting the pot boil a bit. Does sound real nice..."Driving that train..."
(initially also feel like my HE-1000 may have a bit stronger "leading edge", one complaint many have about them is softness here, attack bass and drums seems more striking, transient response is what you'd call it I guess)


----------



## zachawry

I have one suggestion for Will and the team: Put the boxes for the stock tubes in with the unit when shipping. 
  
 I have a growing collection of tubes, and the number of boxes is perpetually N-2, where N is the number of sets of tubes I own. It's kind of a pain in the neck. 
  
 In fact, if you still have those boxes lying around, could I ask you to include some in my LPS when it ships?


----------



## doctorjazz

I don't have any tubes sitting around...when a new tube goes into the ZOTL, the stock tube goes into the box it came in. As long as I know what tube is in, it's easy to find the stock tubes again.


----------



## zachawry

doctorjazz said:


> I don't have any tubes sitting around...when a new tube goes into the ZOTL, the stock tube goes into the box it came in. As long as I know what tube is in, it's easy to find the stock tubes again.


 

 Yeah, that's what I'm doing, too, but the more tubes you have the less tenable this becomes. It's nicer just to have one set of boxes per tube. 
  
 BTW, does anybody know whether leaving the amp on unused puts as much wear on tubes as actually piping music through the system?


----------



## doctorjazz

I was under the impression that the ZOTL wears tubes very slowly, tube life should be very long.
I've just been leaving mine on. Am I incorrect?


----------



## jamato8

doctorjazz said:


> I was under the impression that the ZOTL wears tubes very slowly, tube life should be very long.
> I've just been leaving mine on. Am I incorrect?


 

 I would not leave a tube amp on all the time. There are some circuits and tubes designed for this but all you are doing is shortening the life of your tubes. The micro has a soft start so better to turn the amp off if you are not going to be listening for a few hours.


----------



## doctorjazz

OK, I'll turn it off...sob,


----------



## jamato8

I just got some 7062 pinched waste, that would have been made in the late 1950's to early 1960's. I am letting them burn in but sound good right out of the box. I read somewhere that they reviewed the non pinched waste and pinched waste and found the pinched waste a little less transparent. That isn't what I am hearing. Nice tube, the 7062.


----------



## defbear

I'm interested in the ZOTL2. Reading this thread, I though the amp was just about to become new and improved. Was the big change the LPS? or is there still more coming? Who has heard the unit stock and also with the new LPS. I do not have a tube amp yet and was interested in a OTL. I do have a Lyr2 with some different sets of preamp tubes. Too bright! If you are going to roll tubes, I think you need access to power tubes. Hybrid designs designs do not cut it in the guitar amp world and my personal opinion is the same for our headphone amps. BTW I have found the new Russian tubes to be of excellent quality. Mike Matthews makes Gold Lion, Electro Harmonix, Tung Sol, and Mullard tubes in his Russian factory. His Mullard Ecc83/12ax7 re-creation is spot on. He did purchase all the old British Mullard tooling blah blah blah. I have over 40 different tube guitar amps. All the buzzwords including many tweeds from the 50's We are in a bit of a Golden Age of tube making at this moment. You can buy a lot of old tubes and come up empty. And then one of my old Fender Tweed Deluxe amps uses 6sN7 tubes. I laid in a big stock of those 20 years ago when there was no new manufacture going on. Bet I have some beauties


----------



## doctorjazz

Got my tracking number for my LPS.


----------



## bazelio

My Sigma-11 LPS is providing a smoother sound.  And it is mildly warm (at best) to the touch during headphone operation, as I suspected.  
  
 With the LPS in place, I find the 7062 to be an enjoyable tube whereas previously it was more glassy.  There's still a treble emphasis, but not bad.  The expansion of the soundstage from the 7062 is quite nice, BTW.


----------



## doctorjazz

So, I'm on a tour of the Cavalli Liquid Fire, should come in a few weeks...that should be interesting...


----------



## willsw

defbear said:


> I'm interested in the ZOTL2. Reading this thread, I though the amp was just about to become new and improved. Was the big change the LPS? or is there still more coming? Who has heard the unit stock and also with the new LPS.


 
  
 The MicroZOTL2 is always in a state of improvement, though the improvements thus far have been structural or in other ways that don't significantly affect sound quality, and have mostly been unnoticeable superficially. Offering an option to ship the MicroZOTL2 with a linear power supply is one change that we anticipate will positively affect sound quality. How significantly is as yet unknown - we've had early testers report improved bass; we look forward to the first round of reactions to it, as we just began shipping Tuesday. I imagine that our linear power supply will have a similar effect that other linear power supplies have been reported to have. We have more plans to, hopefully, improve the amp in ways that are both significant and don't raise the price, or can be options that don't raise the price as significantly as the LPS. Of course, these other plans take money, time, and testing, so we'll see what happens. We also stand by the MicroZOTL2 as it was offered initially, and is still offered, with stock power supply, as sounding really, really good. Satisfyingly good. If-it-were-our-own-amp-we'd-be-done-good. But maybe we can add another "really" behind that good.


----------



## zachawry

doctorjazz said:


> So, I'm on a tour of the Cavalli Liquid Fire, should come in a few weeks...that should be interesting...


 

 Liquid Fire? Isn't that an old discontinued Cavalli amp? Sure you don't mean the Crimson?


----------



## willsw

bazelio said:


> My Sigma-11 LPS is providing a smoother sound.  And it is mildly warm (at best) to the touch during headphone operation, as I suspected.
> 
> With the LPS in place, I find the 7062 to be an enjoyable tube whereas previously it was more glassy.  There's still a treble emphasis, but not bad.  The expansion of the soundstage from the 7062 is quite nice, BTW.


 
  
 Glad to hear that LPS is quality. It's definitely noted in Mark's log of possibilities. A very large mental log.


----------



## doctorjazz

zachawry said:


> doctorjazz said:
> 
> 
> > So, I'm on a tour of the Cavalli Liquid Fire, should come in a few weeks...that should be interesting...
> ...




It's to be discontinued, but there is a pre-order now for what is said to be the last run.


----------



## zachawry

doctorjazz said:


> It's to be discontinued, but there is a pre-order now for what is said to be the last run.


 

 Yeah, pretty sure you mean the Crimson. The Fire was deprecated for the Crimson a couple years ago, I think.


----------



## bazelio

The Crimson was the successor to the Fire. Both were/are hybrid tube amps.


----------



## jamato8

Back to the micro. 
  
 I have the pinched waste 7062 tubes in. They went flat for around 20 hours. The sound was dimensional and sometimes tubes will burn in that way, sounding pretty good and then real good and then as they burn in they can go flat in the sound, loosing the transparency and so on. These did that but now have come back, opening back up and more 3D. Glad for that as often if tubes go flat in sound and stay that way for a while, that tends to be what their sound is. That is my experience anyway from years of use.


----------



## doctorjazz

zachawry said:


> doctorjazz said:
> 
> 
> > It's to be discontinued, but there is a pre-order now for what is said to be the last run.
> ...




You're right, I plead brain lock...


----------



## yukihasi

Got my LTALPS! Listening to it right now, will spend some more time on comparison, but IMO it's a no brainer to get one, especially for those who thought their headphones sounded a little bit bright with the stock power supply.


----------



## bazelio

jamato8 said:


> Back to the micro.
> 
> I have the pinched waste 7062 tubes in. They went flat for around 20 hours. The sound was dimensional and sometimes tubes will burn in that way, sounding pretty good and then real good and then as they burn in they can go flat in the sound, loosing the transparency and so on. These did that but now have come back, opening back up and more 3D. Glad for that as often if tubes go flat in sound and stay that way for a while, that tends to be what their sound is. That is my experience anyway from years of use.


 
  
 Why do I have a sinking suspicion that these "pinched waist" variants are simply the result of a manufacturing defect...  L:O:L


----------



## zachawry

Now that we can start obsessing about the LPS, how does one burn in an LPS? Can it just be on, or should the unit be in actual operation? 
  
 Jamato was talking about many hundreds of hours to burn his in...That's a lot of wear on tubes if we're talking about actual operation.


----------



## doctorjazz

I've done some "pinched waist", but it gets me in trouble...


----------



## bazelio

zachawry said:


> Now that we can start obsessing about the LPS, how does one burn in an LPS? Can it just be on, or should the unit be in actual operation?
> 
> Jamato was talking about many hundreds of hours to burn his in...That's a lot of wear on tubes if we're talking about actual operation.


 
  
 I'm pretty skeptical about burnin for components outside the signal path.  Maybe someone can explain that objectively to me.
  
 Otherwise, you're going to want to be playing music in order to get the LPS driving current.


----------



## doctorjazz

LPS arrived today as well (just got home from work, 9:30PM), not a whole lot of time to play, compare with the original power source, but enjoying my listening past few minutes. With the Hytron 6SN7GT, Siemens E81CC 3 MICA Munich, playing hi-rez Dylan (Sooner Or Later One Of Us Must Know), have a smile plastered on my puss


----------



## saidentary

doctorjazz said:


> LPS arrived today as well (just got home from work, 9:30PM), not a whole lot of time to play, compare with the original power source, but enjoying my listening past few minutes. With the Hytron 6SN7GT, Siemens E81CC 3 MICA Munich, playing hi-rez Dylan (Sooner Or Later One Of Us Must Know), have a smile plastered on my puss


 

 AND??????????????


----------



## doctorjazz

And what??????????


----------



## doctorjazz

(Came home late, didn't have the time or energy to A-B the power supplies)


----------



## nephilim32

saidentary said:


> AND??????????????




Lol.


----------



## notusramone

I also got my LPS today, really like it.
 All I can say now, after using LPS, microZOTL2 has a much better control on RS2e.  The bass has better quality and not as losse as before. And the high is smoother.
 I am also using HD600. A big difference is also a smoother high. I also notice that the sound is more stable. How to say......
  
  I am  using the new Kopatchinskaja's Tchaikovsky Violin Concerto to do the test. This is the one I listened a lot these days. before today, I am not satisfied with the sound of Kopatchinskaja's Turin violin. It's too bright. But now everything just good.
  
 Another disc I used to do the AB is Watkin's Bach Cello Suites. Under the original power supply, when using RS2e, the bass is too much so something I am not happy with the cello's sound. But again, LPS give another chance to this disc. Thanks to the better bass control, the sound of this baroque cello is fantastic fine. 
  
 Sorry this is the first time I wrote these things in English. I am not familiar with the words used in Hifi.... But I am happy to share these pictures here.


----------



## doctorjazz

Got a bit of a chance to do the audiophile geek thing, A-B comparison. I do like the LPS better, but I liked the ZOTL with the original switching supply, I'd say the improvement is small but significant. There is a layer of fine "grain" removed, more depth and a more natural blackness to the space between instruments. Instruments and vocals have a bit more body to them, and the overall presentation has a bit more relaxed, natural presentation (no loss of PRAT, though). Listening with my HEK now...objectively, I'd say the improvement is small, subjectively, when I go back to the switching power supply, I want to put the LPS back in the system. (I'm listening with the Hytron 6SN7GT and the Siemen E81CC 12AT7's)


----------



## defbear

The Last Time I looked at power solutions, I solved the problem by purchasing a set of Fostex TH900's.


----------



## defbear

Of course now I'm interested in this amp to pair with the th900's. Amazing how everything goes around in circles.


----------



## doctorjazz

defbear said:


> Of course now I'm interested in this amp to pair with the th900's. Amazing how everything goes around in circles.




Last I knew, you were using Liquid Carbon, no? And I saw you were on one of the Cavalli tours. Do love my ZOTL, though...


----------



## saidentary

doctorjazz said:


> Got a bit of a chance to do the audiophile geek thing, A-B comparison. I do like the LPS better, but I liked the ZOTL with the original switching supply, I'd say the improvement is small but significant. There is a layer of fine "grain" removed, more depth and a more natural blackness to the space between instruments. Instruments and vocals have a bit more body to them, and the overall presentation has a bit more relaxed, natural presentation (no loss of PRAT, though). Listening with my HEK now...objectively, I'd say the improvement is small, subjectively, when I go back to the switching power supply, I want to put the LPS back in the system. (I'm listening with the Hytron 6SN7GT and the Siemen E81CC 12AT7's)


 
 Thank you for your impressions.  I guess I'll get one at some point.  Maybe.  Still pretty happy with the stock version.......    Your post is helpful.  Probably will cave in and get the LPS.   Still might not, though.


----------



## defbear

doctorjazz said:


> Last I knew, you were using Liquid Carbon, no? And I saw you were on one of the Cavalli tours. Do love my ZOTL, though...



Yes, I have the LC. Love it. I usually listen to it balanced. It sounds great SE with the th900's. I'm curious about the OTL amps and sort of a ultimate SE setup. This amp does both. I am not on the Cavalli tour. Some other bearish individual perhaps. I do have the LC coupon burning a hole in my pocket towards a Liquid Gold. But I already have an Audio-gd Master 11. I suppose for all the $$$ I have spent, I could have gotten a nice safe Auralic setup or a Stax whatever. But I like to dabble and learn and listen. 
MY Biggest Concern is that I keep reading the appellation of Bright describing this amp. I already have a Lyr2 so I do not need more bright. Any comments would be helpful.
And Dr. Jazz, I remember you stating the Zotl2 sounded much? Better than the LC. How bout it?


----------



## sheldaze

I do not hear bright. I am not a fan of bright 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Bright to me (from my collection of previously owned amplifiers) were Magni 2 (not Uber - have not had a good listen to the Uber), Valhalla, and Mjolnir. Valhalla 2, though not bright, added a bit of bite to the sound which was not in the original recording. By comparison, I replaced it with a DNA Sonett, which left the music as-is, with nothing added or taken away. Amazing sounding amplifier!
  
 MicroZOTL2 has replaced both my Liquid Carbon and DNA Sonett. Engaging - yes. Bright - no.
  
 These are, of course, my opinions, and I've not heard everything. But this is how I hear it


----------



## doctorjazz

defbear said:


> doctorjazz said:
> 
> 
> > Last I knew, you were using Liquid Carbon, no? And I saw you were on one of the Cavalli tours. Do love my ZOTL, though...
> ...




My apologies for the mistaken identity, there is indeed another bearish individual oh the Liquid Gold tour.

As to the "bright" description, I suppose different folks hear this differently, and have different tolerances for different aspects of the sound. I have found high frequency issues in 2 ways, I guess you could call them omission and commission. Commission is easier to explain. It's what I heard in the highs of my HE-560 when I first got it. Highs that could be unpleasant. Not on all material, but some, which likely had some edge there as well, would make me want to take them off. This was ameliorated some by a better amp (changed from a Geek Out 1K to a RSA HR-2, made a big difference, then to the LC and ZOTL). Upgrading the cable also made a big difference here (I never bought one for the 560 because I wound up going for the HEK, but I did a review of the Dana cable on HeadphoneGuru.com-shameless self promotion here-and found it also made a difference in this area. It costs almost as much as the 560, though. There are 560 mods that also address this, but I never tried them).
 Now, for omission. The HEK and ZOTL fall into this category. That is, I didn't hear any unpleasantness out of the box. Loved them. Period. I didn't hear things that could be improved until I made some changes. In the case of the HEK, changing to the Norm Zoetic cable opened the sounds and Soundstage, and did remove some grunge I hadn't known was there (the Dana cable does it even more, but only with slight gains, at twice the cost). With the ZOTL, upgrading tubes, as I noted above, did some (but I found I needed to change all 4, the stock pairs must be matched), and my early impressions of the LPS in the chain, it definitely removes some grunge, a fine high frequency grain I didn't realize was there (maybe some other listeners are more golden eared...and hey, I ain't getting younger,many years of unhealthy listening to loud music under my belt and aging hearing apparatus), but was audible when it was absent. "Air" between instruments is more open natural, stage deeper. The danger in describing the things isthat by focusing on describing them, they automatically sound like a much bigger change than they really are. At first, I wasn't sure I could pick out the LPS in a blind test, so maybe it's placebo...but I really don't think so. But the magnitude of the change, I'd rate, is similar to a cable change. But, while I'll be using the LPS, I don't find it unpleasant or "bad" when I go back to the switching supply (as I was able to live without the improvement in the Dana cable on my HEK over the Norne, given cost differences, with no suffering on my part). So the change Omits some distortion or grain I hadn't noted UNTIL it was Omitted.
Long winded answer, no? Didn't even get to the LC/ZOTL comparison, but I believe I've posted that before. I still have and use my LC, keep it bedside, use it with acs Encore ciems (single ended) and the HEK, nice sounding amp. I find it to be about the same level as my RSA HR-2(though they sound different). But, the ZOTL IS better sounding imo. More detailed, more open, more natural. I find the LC to exaggerate tone color, like oversaturated film. Makes for an exciting presentation, but obscured some detail. It's not a knock on it,,,it's great for what it cost. I am on the Liquid Crimson tour, they want me to tell folks what you get when you upgrade from the Liquid Carbon to the Liquid Crimson, so I'll listen and post. And, soon, I should be posting an updated ZOTL review on HeadphoneGuru.com (more shameless self promotion  ) to focus on my LPS and tube adventures since my original review.
Now, I exit stage left after an exhaustive and exhausting Soliloquy, only to be shot dead by the "science" poster who believes everything I just posted is hogwash, and is improving the world with my demise...


----------



## bazelio

defbear said:


> doctorjazz said:
> 
> 
> > Last I knew, you were using Liquid Carbon, no? And I saw you were on one of the Cavalli tours. Do love my ZOTL, though...
> ...


 
  
 Out of the box, the ZOTL has a very energetic treble band.  For those who don't hear it, I don't have the slightest idea why, but your sources must be masking it.  My rig is quite neutral, and I hear the treble glare through ETHER-C (quite neutral, maybe slightly euphonic) and the HD600 (well known for being laid back).  And it's not just the energy, but it's the tone that is off as well.  I'd described it as "glassy" previously.  And I think that's the best way I can describe it.  
  
 Anyhow, two things have made a difference to me with regards to microZOTL2 treble glare:
  
 1. Sigma-11 LPS.
 2. Tube rolling.
  
 And, I would rank them in that order as well.  That is, tube rolling before the LPS hadn't properly tamed the treble.  For the time being I've settled on the following tubes:
  

Raytheon VT-231
Amperex (Holland) 7062
  
 This is a, dare I say, somewhat euphonic tube complement.  Maybe not quite...  still quite neutral, but much more pleasing than the new stock Russian tubes.  The 7062 is better than any 12AT7 I've heard.  It adds a touch of warmth, and really nice depth and dimensionality...  at the expense of less precision in focus.   The Raytheon VT-231 is nice.  I can live with it long term.  But OCD as I am, I've also decided to give the VT99 family a shot.  I've got the socket adapters and am waiting for round plate National Union VT99s to arrive.


----------



## doctorjazz

Maybe I'm not bothered by it (maybe because I'm getting old, as I said...), though most others don't seem to be bothered by it either. But, as I noted, I do appreciate it's absence with the LTA LPS and the tube changes.


----------



## bazelio

I agree that this thread is confusing.  You aren't bothered by it, but appreciate its absence.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 So you acknowledge it, I guess.  And others have noted it, as well...  they just haven't posted about it.  Anyhow, different strokes for different folks.  It could be music choice as well.  Whatever you routinely listen to might not accentuate it.  You could have a dark DAC.  Etc.  I don't know.


----------



## zachawry

To me the treble sounds wonderful: precise, articulate, crystalline. 
  
 Then again, I'm an unabashed treble-head!
  
 I thought it was good to begin with, but adding some nice Telefunken ECC801S made the treble even better. Little more detail, little more holographic.


----------



## bazelio

zachawry said:


> To me the treble sounds wonderful: precise, articulate, crystalline.
> 
> Then again, I'm an unabashed treble-head!
> 
> I thought it was good to begin with, but adding some nice Telefunken ECC801S made the treble even better. Little more detail, little more holographic.




The Teles are fairly sterile and will dull things down a bit. But I think that treble-head statement is a good one. It's always good to make ones biases and preferences well known.


----------



## defbear

I'm always amused when SS amp makers state theirs has 'tube warmth'. And then some tube amps makers state their tube amp does not sound like a tube amp. OT but can someone recommend a tube amp that sounds like a tube amp?


----------



## bazelio

defbear said:


> I'm always amused when SS amp makers state theirs has 'tube warmth'. And then some tube amps makers state their tube amp does not sound like a tube amp. OT but can someone recommend a tube amp that sounds like a tube amp?




How much do you want to spend?


----------



## defbear

bazelio said:


> How much do you want to spend?


 
 $1500-$1800


----------



## brencho

heard a zana deux, stratus, and torpedo 3 recently. the zana deux had the most balls and soundstage for sennheisers. the stratus was a bit softer, more intimate than the zd (but a better all-rounder since it can drive planars). torpedo 3 is the cheapest by a long shot, even with upgraded cinemag transformers, but you have to whip out your soldering iron and get to work. bottlehead amps have a classic tube sound signature as well. check out the mainline (though, i've only heard crack and crack 2).


----------



## bazelio

brencho said:


> heard a zana deux, stratus, and torpedo 3 recently. the zana deux had the most balls and soundstage for sennheisers. the stratus was a bit softer, more intimate than the zd (but a better all-rounder since it can drive planars). torpedo 3 is the cheapest by a long shot, even with upgraded cinemag transformers, but you have to whip out your soldering iron and get to work. bottlehead amps have a classic tube sound signature as well. check out the mainline (though, i've only heard crack and crack 2).


 
  
 One thing that struck me about some of the Torp3 feedback from the comparison you refer was how tubey it sounded (for a hybrid parafeed).


----------



## brencho

not tubey compared to the BH amps... more similar to the ZDS, but with less bite (so, it sits between the ZD and Stratus to me in this regard).


----------



## defbear

I will continue this over in Recommendations. 
On the fence on the Zotl2. How is the ZOTL2 with hd800's?


----------



## Hifi01170

I hear the same as bazelio... The zotl 2 is a bit on the bright side... Treble glare, glassy.... I think bazelio nailed it in his description of the zotl 2 sound signature. So it might be a good association with darkish sounding headphones. With the hd800, i would rather go for some real tube colored sound.

I want to add more warmth, body to the sound.... I'm hoping a proper lps might bring more warmth, then i might try some tube rolling. 

It is a great amp if the sound signature is in sync with your taste.... I.e if you are a treble head.


----------



## nephilim32

defbear said:


> $1500-$1800




Woo AUDIO's WA 8 Eclipse. It's a beastly transportable, vacuum tube amp. Not a hybrid. I will be springing for this someday. It's about 2000$ though with tax included.


----------



## sheldaze

When I had only HD800, I thought it was quite good. It was also vastly different from HE1000. Such that I could begin a listening session with HD800, and upon tiring from the treble detail, switch over to HE1000. Now owning HD800S, I do not find myself using HD800 that often. I will often start and end a listening session with HD800S. That is, for a specific listening application, I will use HD800 for a short while. While listening for a tube change, at low volume, blah, blah, blah...
  
 I got lost one afternoon, in hours of wonderful music, with HD800S and the MicroZOTL2. I think the pairing is quite excellent.
 But as I was trying to state above, if I plan to listen to music for many hours, I will not use HD800. So I cannot comment on the pairing with MicroZOTL2.
  
 My opinion also seems to be at odds with the majority here. So you can add that to your equation. But I still have to restate that I simply get lost in the music with HD800S and the MicroZOTL2. I need to have a clock to tell how long I've been seated, because I venture way off, immersed in musical space...


----------



## willsw

I think it was the New Hampshire meet impressions thread that some people wrote about the HD800 being well-paired with the MicroZOTL2. I've recently acquired some HD800s and have really been enjoying them with my MZ2 (stock power supply), though I don't have enough experience with other amps for my opinion to be of that much weight.


----------



## sheldaze

Cool - a few links below from the New Hampshire meet:
  
post #10
post #17
  
 Added a few links from CanJam using other headphones too:
  
post #44
post #64
post #234


----------



## doctorjazz

I always find out interesting how different people's perceptions of the same gear can be. Of course, I probably shouldn't be surprised we vary, but listening to the same gear, it surprises me how different takes the can be. Now, I don't think of myself as a treble head, and sometimes find treble on some great objectionable (just went on a dog walk, like to take one of my favorite streaming radio shows with me Destination Out (WFMU.org Give the Drummer Some stream)

playlists/shows/65709?dm=1459092800

I have to stream from my phone, HTC One M8, and took Beyer 1350 headphones. While not unlistenable, it was brighter and edgier than I like (but, dog walkers can't be choosy). Anyway, figure there are a few variable art work. First, of course, is taste, some like treble emphasis, some bass, etc. Then, some may just have shaped high frequency hearing (though, we're all losing it...). Associated gear also matters, the HD-800 is said to be hot in the treble, would accentuate issues there. Then, I'm wondering if the tubes themselves can vary enough in sound that my amp doesn't sound physical to yours. While I do now improvements in grain, smoothness, with the new tubes and LTA LPS, I didn't find out objectionable in stock form...in fact, logged many hours with my HEK, source PC/2g LH labs usb cable/Regen/Geek out special Edition as a source most of the time, and didn't note unpleasantness, as I did with the phone combo today. Who knows...


----------



## bazelio

defbear said:


> I will continue this over in Recommendations.
> On the fence on the Zotl2. How is the ZOTL2 with hd800's?




Take it with a grain of salt I suppose, because I've never tried the combo together although I've heard both separately... But I wouldn't consider that to be an ideal pairing. I could give some further thoughts when my HD 800 S arrives. Though I intend to pair those with my Zana Deux S.


----------



## bazelio

doctorjazz said:


> I always find out interesting how different people's perceptions of the same gear can be. Of course, I probably shouldn't be surprised we vary, but listening to the same gear, it surprises me how different takes the can be. Now, I don't think of myself as a treble head, and sometimes find treble on some great objectionable (just went on a dog walk, like to take one of my favorite streaming radio shows with me Destination Out (WFMU.org Give the Drummer Some stream)
> 
> playlists/shows/65709?dm=1459092800
> 
> I have to stream from my phone, HTC One M8, and took Beyer 1350 headphones. While not unlistenable, it was brighter and edgier than I like (but, dog walkers can't be choosy). Anyway, figure there are a few variable art work. First, of course, is taste, some like treble emphasis, some bass, etc. Then, some may just have shaped high frequency hearing (though, we're all losing it...). Associated gear also matters, the HD-800 is said to be hot in the treble, would accentuate issues there. Then, I'm wondering if the tubes themselves can vary enough in sound that my amp doesn't sound physical to yours. While I do now improvements in grain, smoothness, with the new tubes and LTA LPS, I didn't find out objectionable in stock form...in fact, logged many hours with my HEK, source PC/2g LH labs usb cable/Regen/Geek out special Edition as a source most of the time, and didn't note unpleasantness, as I did with the phone combo today. Who knows...




We can normalize to the stock tubes and eliminate variables. You've spent most of your MicroZOTL2 life with the stock tubes. And everything I've mentioned was accentuated by them. There are factors such as personal references (and preferences) as well as biases at play, in addition to source gear affects.


----------



## bazelio

hifi01170 said:


> I hear the same as bazelio... The zotl 2 is a bit on the bright side... Treble glare, glassy.... I think bazelio nailed it in his description of the zotl 2 sound signature. So it might be a good association with darkish sounding headphones. With the hd800, i would rather go for some real tube colored sound.
> 
> I want to add more warmth, body to the sound.... I'm hoping a proper lps might bring more warmth, then i might try some tube rolling.
> 
> It is a great amp if the sound signature is in sync with your taste.... I.e if you are a treble head.




The LPS doesn't add warmth, to my ears. It smooths things out removing some treble harshness while leaving the generally coolish signature intact. If you want warmth, borrow my Mullard 12AT7 pair to see if they are to your liking. If they are, I'll sell them to you at a good price. With the LPS, I've switched to 7062s and will keep them. The downside with the 7062s seems to be microphonics, although it might be controllable. I'll probably pick up Herbie's dampeners but for now PTFE tape has helped, although has somewhat overdampened them....



BTW a good treble test for the MicroZOTL2 and one's own biases IMO is Sara Bareilles Brave Enough Live. I can now enjoy this entire album through the MicroZOTL2, but it took some work as mentioned.


----------



## sheldaze

I like properly executed treble.
  
_This_ has taken me a while to (1st) want and (2nd) acquire and adjust to. It has been such things as:
  

Transition from HE400S to HE1000.
Transition from HD800 to HD800S.
Changes in DACs from Arcam irDAC, Bifrost Uber, and the single-ended output of the Oppo BDP-105 to Chord Mojo, Schiit Gungnir Multibit, and the balanced output from the Oppo (yes, to my ears the XLR output sounds tremendously different - basically fixing a treble glare issue).
And as I previously said, switching from amplifiers such as Schiit Valhalla and Mjolnir to amplifiers such as DNA Sonett and (in my opinion) MicroZOTL2.
  
 I went through a phase of liking amplifiers simply because they were warmer, such as JDS Labs The Element - it took me a while to trust my next amplifier, the Meier Audio Corda Rock, simply because it had more treble than The Element. I listened to many songs before I finally made the mental note - Corda Rock sounds okay. Treble quantity is one of the primary things I judge for myself in a new amplifier, and I do not find the stock MicroZOTL2 to have too much treble.


----------



## hrq12345

I have the HD800 paired with MZOTL2. I would say cable switch makes a great difference. My HD800 has the Siltech cable with it so it's less bright. The pairing is just great. I had several people listening to my HD800 vs. HD800S vs. HD800 with original cable and they all thought mine was the best. From my audition, HD800S has a nicer distribution of all frequencies compared to the HD800, but the overall soundstage is brought to the front and feels compact a little bit. HD800 feels more open. For me I am just happily live with my HD800 and ZOTL2.


----------



## JoeDoe

Greetings fellas,

I'm looking for impressions featuring the ZOTL and low impedance dynamic cans, as well as any comparisons between the Z and the Woo WA7. 

Anybody? Bueller?


----------



## sheldaze

joedoe said:


> Greetings fellas,
> 
> I'm looking for impressions featuring the ZOTL and low impedance dynamic cans, as well as any comparisons between the Z and the Woo WA7.
> 
> Anybody? Bueller?


 
 I will be at a meet this coming weekend with my MicroZOTL2 and another member will be bringing his WA7. What kinds of low impedance headphones did you have in mind? I could also request specific headphones from other members, if I knew what you had in mind.
  
 There will be Grado PS1000e. I can bring my Grado SR325is or Grado SR60i. The next higher impedance headphones I could offer are AKG, but that might be too high for your request.


----------



## JoeDoe

sheldaze said:


> I will be at a meet this coming weekend with my MicroZOTL2 and another member will be bringing his WA7. What kinds of low impedance headphones did you have in mind? I could also request specific headphones from other members, if I knew what you had in mind.
> 
> There will be Grado PS1000e. I can bring my Grado SR325is or Grado SR60i. The next higher impedance headphones I could offer are AKG, but that might be too high for your request.




Awesome. 

I've got a Grado GH1 and a custom SennGrado. Love to hear impressions with the PS abd the 325.


----------



## bazelio

Last night, Purrin performed a slew of measurements on the microZOTL2 amp.  I've received his consent to post them.  Treble distortion is what I was most interested in.  See the results below.  Now, there is obviously a big fan base who really enjoys the MZ2's treble - and there's nothing wrong with that!  Often times warmth (which I tend to enjoy) is the result of what I'd call "attractive distortion".  It is, at the end of the day, all a matter of personal preference.  But I do think this should end the "debate" as to the question of neutrality in MZ2's treble region.
  
 Here's a *1 kHz @ 0.550 Vrms into 330Ω* capture.  You can clearly see the treble distortion:
  

  
  
 For reference, here's the same *1 kHz into 330 Ohm* measurement for a Vali2 amp.  Similar distortion around 2k, but significantly cleaner from there onward.


----------



## WNBC

As someone who does not know much about how amps are made and designed or even how these tests are done, would tubes affect the amount of measured/perceived distortion?  And on average, how many measurements are made and then averaged?  Thanks
  
 Quote:


bazelio said:


> Last night, Purrin performed a slew of measurements on the microZOTL2 amp.  I've received his consent to post them.  Treble distortion is what I was most interested in.  See the results below.  Now, there is obviously a big fan base who really enjoys the MZ2's treble - and there's nothing wrong with that!  Often times warmth (which I tend to enjoy) is the result of what I'd call "attractive distortion".  It is, at the end of the day, all a matter of personal preference.  But I do think this should end the "debate" as to the question of neutrality in MZ2's treble region.
> 
> Here's a *1 kHz @ 0.550 Vrms into 330Ω* capture.  You can clearly see the treble distortion:


 


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!






> For reference, here's the same *1 kHz into 330 Ohm* measurement for a Vali2 amp.  Similar distortion around 2k, but significantly cleaner from there onward.


----------



## bazelio

By my intuition (I'm not an expert by any means) distortion should change - both perceived and measured - with different tube complements.  I've certainly found pleasing (to my ears) tube complements for the MZ2.  And then if my ears are any indicator, the effect of my LPS should show up in these measurements as well.  Marv's measurements are using the stock tubes and stock PSU.
  
 As I tried to mention above, and has been mentioned elsewhere, we can't simply say "higher distortion = sounds worse".  There is certainly particular distortion that I find attractive.  And it's always going to be a case of different strokes for different folks.


----------



## jamato8

bazelio said:


> By my intuition (I'm not an expert by any means) distortion should change - both perceived and measured - with different tube complements.  I've certainly found pleasing (to my ears) tube complements for the MZ2.  And then if my ears are any indicator, the effect of my LPS should show up in these measurements as well.  Marv's measurements are using the stock tubes and stock PSU.
> 
> As I tried to mention above, and has been mentioned elsewhere, we can't simply say "higher distortion = sounds worse".  There is certainly particular distortion that I find attractive.  And it's always going to be a case of different strokes for different folks.


 

 In tube designs, often what is called distortion, is, as you have mentioned, if I understand what you have said, to sound pleasing and often natural. Having stated this, obviously there is distortion that is acceptable, as in even venues where performances are, will have distortions and then there are distortions that are not acceptable. I would be interested in seeing the measurements with different tubes and a other power supplies. The nice thing about an amp that you can swap tubes or op amps, is just that, you can ultimately change the sound and possibly make it even better. I do find that I like the 7062 box plate (they were all box plate from all that I have seen) but I think he stock tubes are pleasing and a step above what many manufactures use. I listen to a lot of live sound and that is what I base my comparisons on. Live sound, acoustics and the interplay of the notes both in a playback system and that, that I hear in a more "natural" environment.


----------



## WNBC

The measurements are useful and appreciated.  Helps put a little science behind what we are hearing as many of us don't have trained ears.  If I'm reading the graph correctly, we are talking about very little area under each spike after 1000 hz and since it is a log scale we're also talking about very specific frequencies.  Nothing to worry about unless one's headphones also had spike in similar frequencies?  I think the measurements can "sometimes" help guide headphone choices or pairings.  I had a MyST PotraDAC 1866 at one point and the Heir Audio 4Ai.  Most people I knew did not like the 4Ai because of the treble energy and I was always like "what treble energy".  Later, I found out that the PortraDAC was shelving some of the higher frequencies.  Nothing about the ZOTL measurements is troubling me and seems to pair well with most headphones.  I like my punch to be spiked anyway 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.  Also curious as the previous posters to see how the measurements change with the LPS and other tubes.


----------



## bazelio

Obvious the area under the spikes will look different visually on a linear scale.  I think the magnitude and number of harmonics in the higher frequencies correlate very well to what I'm hearing out of the MZ2 in its stock state...  I would really like to see the same measurements with my LPS in the chain, though.  My empirical suspicion would be the stock switcher is a significant contributor to the HF hash.


----------



## jamato8

Using some 5965 GB (Gold brand - gold pin) Sylvania. They have the 17mm long plates. Very nice sounding. Very good imaging. Might not be quite as deep a soundstage as the 7062 but very musical.


----------



## doctorjazz

I can't argue with any of the above, the stock ZOTL sounded fine to me (@Bazelio is sharp eared in this regard, obviously), didn't mind the highs, but, as I mentioned, tube changes and the LPS DID remove some grain I wasn't aware of until I noted it's absence. I'd say the changes, for most, are not a must, but, once heard, you're likely to be happy you made them and stick with the upgrades. 
My $0.02.


----------



## willsw

The switching supply is the cause of some of the regular (in occurrence) distortion, though I haven't seen measurements taken with a linear power supply yet so I can't say how different they are. Measurements mirroring these results, as well as more measurements, will be part of the next large-ish (in audience) review of the MicroZOTL2. Measurements everywhere.


----------



## svmusa

jamato8 said:


> Using some 5965 GB (Gold brand - gold pin) Sylvania. They have the 17mm long plates. Very nice sounding. Very good imaging. Might not be quite as deep a soundstage as the 7062 but very musical.


 
 Thx for sharing, It is good to hear feedback on different input tubes. I have only ventured into NOS Sylvania 6201 gold pins with Kenrad VT231 and love the imaging and deep bass. I might have to start rolling these different input options.


----------



## bazelio

svmusa said:


> jamato8 said:
> 
> 
> > Using some 5965 GB (Gold brand - gold pin) Sylvania. They have the 17mm long plates. Very nice sounding. Very good imaging. Might not be quite as deep a soundstage as the 7062 but very musical.
> ...


 
  
  
 Both should be good choices, IMO.  Kenrad VT231 would be on my shortlist, and I've been curious about the 6201s as well.  But the 7062 - if microphonics aren't an issue - are really good and I haven't been motivated to venture out further after finding them.
  
 PS @doctorjazz - Nothing sharp about my ears.  Just a regular old audio enthusiast here.


----------



## doctorjazz

So, which tubes for in the ZOTL as is, and which need adapters, special cover, etc?


----------



## jamato8

bazelio said:


> Both should be good choices, IMO.  Kenrad VT231 would be on my shortlist, and I've been curious about the 6201s as well.  But the 7062 - if microphonics aren't an issue - are really good and I haven't been motivated to venture out further after finding them.
> 
> PS @doctorjazz - Nothing sharp about my ears.  Just a regular old audio enthusiast here.


 

 The pinched waste can be microphonic. The regular PQ is good. I have a pair that were microphonic and just switched their position. Makes no sense to me except that it may have just tweaked the grid a little as it was still hot. I don't wait for tubes to cool as there is no real reason to. The Kenrad is a good one. I like the Tung-sol RP also. I have the 52 Sylvania in NOS but don't like them in the micro. They are a little dry sounding and they get edgy sounding.


----------



## bazelio

jamato8 said:


> bazelio said:
> 
> 
> > Both should be good choices, IMO.  Kenrad VT231 would be on my shortlist, and I've been curious about the 6201s as well.  But the 7062 - if microphonics aren't an issue - are really good and I haven't been motivated to venture out further after finding them.
> ...




Not just the pinched waist get microphonic. I'm battling it with the standard tubes. I'm exchanging one set, and will probably pick up Herbie's dampers.


----------



## zachawry

OK, you can officially call me a tube convert. 
  
 I usually use my Telefunken 801S and Sylvania 6SN7GTBs. Both of these are crystalline and clear, and emphasize the high end a little bit. The 801S in particular, are, I think, wonderful. This is exactly the way I like my music: pure and clean and holographic. 
  
 But tonight I'm tired. I have to work for a couple hours, and I'm not relishing it. So I put in my Mullard 4024s and RCA VT-231 greyglass. Both of these emphasize the bass a little more, though not in an exaggerated way. Rather than clean and crystalline, the sound is now lush and liquid. Less detail, more emotion. Not 3D, but the 2D blanket is like a down comforter on a cool night. 
  
 Though not usually my preferred sound, right now it's just perfect. 
  
 I love the fact that I can change the sound this way. 
  
 (Although I'm aware that almost anybody else would be hard-pressed to hear these differences like I do.)


----------



## willsw

The Absolute Sound has put Dick Olsher's review of the MicroZOTL2 online: http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/david-berning-microzotl20-personal-amplifier/


----------



## Shmuel

Just my 2 cents on the new power supply. Added to my current system i easily notice and am very much appreciating a deeper and punchier bass, more 3d sound field and an overall more authoritative presentation to the music. Tremble is clear, pure and non-fatiguing. 
Very happy with purchase, needless to say.


----------



## EdmontonCanuck

willsw said:


> The Absolute Sound has put Dick Olsher's review of the MicroZOTL2 online: http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/david-berning-microzotl20-personal-amplifier/


 
 Nice review article!
  
 I'm anxious to hear what the new LPS is going to sound like with my ZOTL2. Are you prioritizing USA shipments first? I ordered mine within 1 minute of receiving the email notification but still no word on shipment (I'm in Canada).


----------



## willsw

edmontoncanuck said:


> I'm anxious to hear what the new LPS is going to sound like with my ZOTL2. Are you prioritizing USA shipments first? I ordered mine within 1 minute of receiving the email notification but still no word on shipment (I'm in Canada).


 
  
 We did not prioritize any orders based on location, but sometimes, especially when shipping outside of the US, one of our guys forgets to click the "email notification" button, which is annoying and we are always reminding everyone about. There is a very early order scheduled to arrive in Canada today, and I'm assuming it's yours.


----------



## EdmontonCanuck

willsw said:


> edmontoncanuck said:
> 
> 
> > I'm anxious to hear what the new LPS is going to sound like with my ZOTL2. Are you prioritizing USA shipments first? I ordered mine within 1 minute of receiving the email notification but still no word on shipment (I'm in Canada).
> ...





Ahh, no worries. Thanks for the update


----------



## jamato8

I look forward to comparing the new power supply to the Mojo V. I suspect they will be close. 
  
 Went back to my regular Amperex PQ 7062. The 7062 pinched waste I have are from the early 1960's and I prefer the sound of the PQ.


----------



## EdmontonCanuck

willsw said:


> We did not prioritize any orders based on location, but sometimes, especially when shipping outside of the US, one of our guys forgets to click the "email notification" button, which is annoying and we are always reminding everyone about. There is a very early order scheduled to arrive in Canada today, and I'm assuming it's yours.


 
  
 OK, thats just too funny. I really should have waited 1 hour before posting my question. It indeed was just delivered 
  
 Thanks!


----------



## jamato8

I thought I had been running the power supply from my balanced power supply (a special huge toroid designed for this purpose and other AC cleaning circuitry), but I was not use the right power cord. So I plugged the PS into this and the micro Zotl sounds even better. More transparent etc. The better your AC the more everything else has to work with. The source is the DX80 into the Chord Hugo. Phones the Pioneer Master SE1 with Whiplash Twau cable.


----------



## doctorjazz

The review had me wanting to set up the ZOTL as a preamp in some capacity. Have a nice preamp already in my main system (Peachtree GrandPre), which feeds am old Krell KSA-150. Would need a good single ended cable, as the current set up is balanced. Alternatively, I could just connect my Audioengine A2's to the ZOTL, (powered speakers sitting silent for a number of reasons). But, that would likely be a bedroom system, but I'm pretty happy with the DeepBlue2 currently providing sounds in the bedroom. First World problems...


----------



## defbear

First World Problems.....Nicely put. So I bought a Bottlehead Crack kit with the Speedball power kit. I will build the Crack, listen for a while and then add the Speedball. I know it's not the ZOTL2 but it is OTL. without the carrier wave thingy. To stay OT, who has both?


----------



## doctorjazz

Curious what you think in the end...would love to do comparisons, maybe at the June NY area meet, if I make it.


----------



## defbear

doctorjazz said:


> Curious what you think in the end...would love to do comparisons, maybe at the June NY area meet, if I make it.


 
 I won't be in NY anytime soon. I'd be combing the streets for Gaga. I do not have a ZOTL on order. I am  waiting for the Bottlehead. Perhaps 3 weeks or so. I will report back in the Bottlehead thread but also give a blerb here as well.


----------



## doctorjazz

Thanks, @defbear, didn't mean to put the onus for comparison on you, just a general thought that a comparison, if someone happens to have one at the June NY area meet, would be fun. Enjoy the new toys!


----------



## defbear

The last time I was in New York City I saw Hair on Broadway and the new Andy Warhol exhibit at the Met! I need to go again.


----------



## doctorjazz

It may have changed a teeny bit...get Hamilton tickets (may have to sell your first born, could be worth it...)


----------



## bazelio

VT-99 next to an old stock 6SN7 for reference, and installed in the microZOTL2....


----------



## doctorjazz

You obviously have the new top...so, how does it compare to the 6SN7, stock or NOS? Inquiring minds...


----------



## bazelio

There's no top currently.  I'd be tempted to just drill the existing top, but that might hurt resale.


----------



## doctorjazz

Mine doesn't hold together if the top isn't screwed on...the walls stand there, it isn't stable. I have 4 of the screws in now, just to hold it all together, so I don't have to remove them all to change tubes (though, I'm fine with the current complement of tubes, will probably put the rest of the screws back in this weekend).


----------



## bazelio

Heh, the case is no mechanical engineering marvel, but mine doesn't fall apart with the top detached.  
  
 Tubes...  yeah I think the VT-99s have opened it up a bit.  They're not bad.  More listening to do, but I'll probably end up preferring them to the VT-231s.


----------



## dpump

bazelio said:


> There's no top currently.  I'd be tempted to just drill the existing top, but that might hurt resale.


 
 Urban Audio sells a top for $30 that has the 2 holes already drilled to let taller tubes stick thru and allow the top to be screwed down. I have one on my amp with the 6F8G/VT-99's. There are some pictures of my amp with the 'holey' top in some earlier posts.
  
 One note. I see bazelio got the VT-99 to 6SN7 adaptors with the white cap that attaches to the top of the tube. I personally don't like the white caps as they only contact the tube on 2 sides and tend to loosen with use. If you check eBay you will also see adaptors that use a black cap. These black caps contact the tube on 4 sides, fit much tighter, and tend to stay tight. There is also an eBay seller who sells the black caps separately. I would recommend anyone buying any adaptors to try to get ones with the black cap instead of the white one. I converted the adaptors I have from white caps to black caps, but it is a bit of a pain to do until you figure it out.


----------



## bazelio

These caps aren't going anywhere.  They're on there securely..


----------



## doctorjazz

For those of us tube ignoramuses, WHAT are the tops for? Is it formalwear?


----------



## willsw

doctorjazz said:


> Mine doesn't hold together if the top isn't screwed on...the walls stand there, it isn't stable.


 
  


bazelio said:


> Heh, the case is no mechanical engineering marvel, but mine doesn't fall apart with the top detached.


 
  
 At some point we added corner welds so that the top isn't necessary for structural stability. I don't know if anyone has noticed, but the amp wasn't exactly designed for tube rolling. I'm currently trying to change my first 12AT7s ever, and getting them back in . . . well, I'm taking a break.


----------



## doctorjazz

A-ha!that explains it.


----------



## dpump

doctorjazz said:


> For those of us tube ignoramuses, WHAT are the tops for? Is it formalwear?


 
 The top or cap plugs onto a connector on the top of the VT-99 tube to complete the tube circuit.


----------



## dpump

bazelio said:


> These caps aren't going anywhere.  They're on there securely..


 
 In my experience, the white caps may be ok when new, but they loosen with time and use. If you have a chance to use the black caps you will see the difference in how tightly they fit and how they stay tight over time. Just my 2cents worth.


----------



## bazelio

dpump said:


> bazelio said:
> 
> 
> > These caps aren't going anywhere.  They're on there securely..
> ...




OK we will see. My ZDS white caps are still problem free.


----------



## dpump

bazelio said:


> OK we will see. My ZDS white caps are still problem free.


 
 Haven't heard of ZDS white caps. Maybe they are higher quality than the typical ones on eBay? If so, I stand corrected. Is there a site to see and possibly purchase them separately?


----------



## bazelio

dpump said:


> bazelio said:
> 
> 
> > OK we will see. My ZDS white caps are still problem free.
> ...


 
  
  
 I meant the rectifier caps on my Zana Deux Super.  They're white and they clamp front and back just like these.  They've given me no difficulties....


----------



## jamato8

I have a couple of adapters that I bought on eBay for my VT99. They have the ceramic white caps. I have also made adapters with these caps in the past and have not had any problem with contact pressure. I don't find them difficult to work with but can understand that if they were not sprung correctly when assembling, there might not be adequate pressure on the grid cap or whatever cap you are using them with.


----------



## jamato8

Hey hey! Got the new power supply from LTA. A nice substantial supply and letting it burn in now. Will have some comparisons to the Mojo V but out of the box it is sounding very good. Clean and a black background to the sound.


----------



## doctorjazz

jamato8 said:


> Hey hey! Got the new power supply from LTA. A nice substantial supply and letting it burn in now. Will have some comparisons to the Mojo V but out of the box it is sounding very good. Clean and a black background to the sound.




Curious about the comparison...


----------



## saidentary

jamato8 said:


> Hey hey! Got the new power supply from LTA. A nice substantial supply and letting it burn in now. Will have some comparisons to the Mojo V but out of the box it is sounding very good. Clean and a black background to the sound.


 

 As I recall, you described the burning in period for the Mojo Joule V as being quite long, at least before it reached its best sound and that sound became stable.  Would that be your expectation for the Linear Tube Audio version?


----------



## jamato8

saidentary said:


> As I recall, you described the burning in period for the Mojo Joule V as being quite long, at least before it reached its best sound and that sound became stable.  Would that be your expectation for the Linear Tube Audio version?


 

 I don't know. It has many caps that need to form but I will say that even after a few hours I like what it is doing. I most likely will stick the stock tubes in it to run it when I am not listening. like overnight.


----------



## EdmontonCanuck

jamato8 said:


> Hey hey! Got the new power supply from LTA. A nice substantial supply and letting it burn in now. Will have some comparisons to the Mojo V but out of the box it is sounding very good. Clean and a black background to the sound.




I received the LPS on Wednesday and have about 8 hours of listening on it. In a word, definitely an improvement! (OK, that was 3 words). Absolutely black background (not that it wasn't very good to begin with, but in no way is it worse) more air around the instruments, and a noticeable improvement in soundstage. I would highly recommend current MZotl2 users to jump on the LTA LPS bandwagon!

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


----------



## jamato8

I also notice an improvement/change in the bass. Very solid and controlled.


----------



## eaglejo

OK, I finally hooked up my Zotl2.  My entire rig was in storage as I completed a house renovation.  Right out of the box, the Zotl2 sounds pretty darned good.  It's a ballsy tube amp.  My quick characteristic would be the balls of good ss with the palpability of tubes.
  
 I'll be trying it with two different external psu's, an Uptone Audio JS-2 and a Core Audio Kallos.  In the past, I've owned the Berning ZH270 and a 300B Berning Siegfried.  The Siegfried was my favorite tube amp ever and I mistakenly sold it to a friend when I switched out of high efficiency speakers.  It's the only piece of gear I've had that's actually appreciated in value.
  
 As far as headphone amps go, my previous reference was an Eddie Current Balancing Act with KR PX4s (after cycling through just about every 300B out there since I was one of the first to purchase a BA and Craig's Mom lives near me and quite graciously gave me access to a bunch of different 300Bs), upgraded fuse, power cord and umbilical.  I live in AZ and my audiophile friends here have cycled through most of the top tier amps.  
  
 I'll keep everyone posted.  For those in doubt, the psu makes a very meaningful difference.  Just hooked up the Core Audio Kallos and the a/b was immediate.  My sources are an Auralic Vega, Chord Mojo and a vinyl set-up (Eddie Current custom phono stage, tweaked 1200 with Paul Hynes psu, Lyra Delos, Funk Firm platter, upgraded bearing and Origin Live arm).
  
 Sonically, I prefer a dynamic, immediate presentation with a huge soundstage.  Definitely more of a front-row guy.  Just stating this up front so you can frame my assessment of things.  I'm also an unrepentant tweaker.
  
 The rig in my profile is dated.  I'll have to update that.


----------



## jamato8

I am finding the new power supply that LTA is putting out now, to be excellent. This is a must buy for you guys and gals with the micro. Buy it and forget it. It doesn't run very warm and the way they have it openly vented, the PS should last a few lifetimes. 
  
 Edit: Wow, this new power supply really increases the slam. A very taught and articulated bass!


----------



## doctorjazz

Haven't got other LPS units to compare it with, but I'd agree the LTA LPS is a nice upgrade to the sound, glad I got it.


----------



## eaglejo

OK, I've only got about 12 hours on my Zotl2 but I'm completely smitten with the sound.  The slam/dynamics/prat and bass of this thing is off the charts with a good external psu.  I'm using a Core Audio Kallos but hope to check out a LTA psu at some point.  I haven't been this happy with an audio purchase in a long time.  Next up I'm going to check out some fuses and then I'll begin with the tube rolling.  Then again, the sound is so good that there's nothing I really want to change.  Just being a standard neurotic audiophile.


----------



## sheldaze

joedoe said:


> Awesome.
> 
> I've got a Grado GH1 and a custom SennGrado. Love to hear impressions with the PS abd the 325.


 
 Glad you asked about this - turns out I have a slight glitch with mine more easy to hear via the Grado. Lots of good support from Linear Tube Audio, so it's being taken care of!
  
 But there was a second MicroZOTL2 at the meet, with some new tubes, which I might ask for later! The gentleman who brought his Grado PS1000e was disappointed I had sold my DNA Sonett, which was the first amplifier he'd heard and liked how his Grado(s) sounded on. But he had a chance to listen to the second MicroZOTL2. And he loved it - is keeping his Grado. Unlike the DNA, you can actually buy these - I think this was one of his comments. And at the meet, the MZ2 was run through a bevy of headphones, and all sounded good:
  

Dharma D1000
Ether C
HD600
HD650
HD800S
HE1000
LCD-3
LCD-4
LCD-X
LCD-XC
PS1000e
  
 And likely a few more I'm not recalling...


----------



## jamato8

I don't have any headphones that don't sound great with the micro Zotl. You can see most of my phones in my signature. I also have the AKG 7XX from Mass drop that sound very good out of the micro.


----------



## sheldaze

jamato8 said:


> I don't have any headphones that don't sound great with the micro Zotl. You can see most of my phones in my signature. I also have the AKG 7XX from Mass drop that sound very good out of the micro.


 
 I'm a fan of both the K7XX and K702 and will be trying those soon.


----------



## EdmontonCanuck

eaglejo said:


> OK, I've only got about 12 hours on my Zotl2 but I'm completely smitten with the sound.  The slam/dynamics/prat and bass of this thing is off the charts with a good external psu.  I'm using a Core Audio Kallos but hope to check out a LTA psu at some point.  I haven't been this happy with an audio purchase in a long time.  Next up I'm going to check out some fuses and then I'll begin with the tube rolling.  Then again, the sound is so good that there's nothing I really want to change.  Just being a standard neurotic audiophile.


 
 You'll definitely want to update your "headphone amp" section in your signature then


----------



## saidentary

sheldaze said:


> .................... And at the meet, the MZ2 was run through a bevy of headphones, and all sounded good:..............


 
 Which meet?


----------



## willsw

saidentary said:


> Which meet?


 
 Yesterday there was a mini-meet follow up to the DC-area meet, though it turned out to be more medium than mini. I went for more personal reasons than professional, though am always happy when people get to spend time with the MicroZOTL2. It also seems that the Metrum Musette that we've decided to pair with, along with Mojo products, is getting good reactions as a match with the amp, which is also reassuring.


----------



## Audio Addict

willsw said:


> Yesterday there was a mini-meet follow up to the DC-area meet, though it turned out to be more medium than mini. I went for more personal reasons than professional, though am always happy when people get to spend time with the MicroZOTL2. It also seems that the Metrum Musette that we've decided to pair with, along with Mojo products, is getting good reactions as a match with the amp, which is also reassuring.


 
  
 That is an unusual DAC as it only has one US Dealer according to the manufacturer's website.  From the 6 Moons review it does look interesting though.


----------



## willsw

audio addict said:


> That is an unusual DAC as it only has one US Dealer according to the manufacturer's website.  From the 6 Moons review it does look interesting though.


 
  
 We came across Metrum DACs and were very intrigued by their new, proprietary method of making a ladder chip, and the retail company we run (separate from Linear Tube Audio), Urban HiFi, which until recently has been the only place to buy MicroZOTL2s, has been looking for interesting products, so we've been using the Musette and have been very happy with it, and Metrum has agreed to let us be a dealer as well. So, soon you'll be seeing Metrum products, amongst others, on the Urban HiFi website.


----------



## Audio Addict

Interesting. I saw they announced finishing 2 years of research on a new DAC that will only sell for a measly 25K Euros.


----------



## willsw

audio addict said:


> Interesting. I saw they announced finishing 2 years of research on a new DAC that will only sell for a measly 25K Euros.


 
  
 We're mostly interested in things that are priced in a similar way to the LTA ZOTL products: at a point where an increase in performance would require much more cost and would be incremental. I don't think you'll see us with a MicroZOTL2 perched atop a DAC worth several times its price anytime soon.


----------



## Audio Addict

Thanks.


----------



## vapman

This is 12-volt only, right? As in I can't replace the 12at7 with a 6n-something if desired?


----------



## willsw

vapman said:


> This is 12-volt only, right? As in I can't replace the 12at7 with a 6n-something if desired?


 
  
 This is correct. It's not recommended that you change either of the tube types.*
  
*see nephilim's posts, though he's only been playing with the 6SN7 sockets.


----------



## vapman

willsw said:


> This is correct. It's not recommended that you change either of the tube types.*
> 
> *see nephilim's posts, though he's only been playing with the 6SN7 sockets.


 

 If I have a lot of 12au7 around are those no good either? I don't mind going with 12at7 if the circuit expects them.


----------



## willsw

vapman said:


> If I have a lot of 12au7 around are those no good either? I don't mind going with 12at7 if the circuit expects them.


 
  
 The MicroZOTL circuit was designed specifically for 12at7s and requires them.
  
 If you happen to fall in love with the ZOTL sound and want power amps, both of our speaker amplifiers, the 10 watt and the 40 watt, use 12au7s. Just to put that out there.


----------



## vapman

willsw said:


> The MicroZOTL circuit was designed specifically for 12at7s and requires them.
> 
> If you happen to fall in love with the ZOTL sound and want power amps, both of our speaker amplifiers, the 10 watt and the 40 watt, use 12au7s. Just to put that out there.


 

 If I fall in love with the ZOTL sound I'll be running it thru a Hafler DH-500.


----------



## willsw

vapman said:


> If I fall in love with the ZOTL sound I'll be running it thru a Hafler DH-500.


 
  
 A man who needs power in his power amps! I'll let you know when we get a few hundred more watts going. Luckily the micro is an excellent preamp.


----------



## vapman

If such a thing is in the works I will be keeping my eyes open absolutely. I've been eyeing the micro2 for a while now though and thinking it's about time to try them out.
  
 Just one more thing I'm confused on, sorry, you either run 12at7's -or- 6sn7's?


----------



## willsw

vapman said:


> If such a thing is in the works I will be keeping my eyes open absolutely. I've been eyeing the micro2 for a while now though and thinking it's about time to try them out.
> 
> Just one more thing I'm confused on, sorry, you either run 12at7's -or- 6sn7's?


 
  
 It is not currently in the works - right now on that front we're just trying to get the ZOTL10 and ZOTL40 in production and seen in the world. 
  
 The MicroZOTL2 has a pair of 6SN7s and a pair of 12AT7s. We recommend that they stay 6SN7s and 12AT7s, as those were the tubes the circuit was designed for.
  
 We do offer a cover with pre-cut holes for older 6SN7 variations, so as long as the tubes are equivalent, of course, it doesn't matter exactly what they're called.


----------



## vapman

Thanks for the clarification!


----------



## claud W

Could some of you owners please share your favorite 12AT7 tubes you have used with this amp?
I have lots of 6SN7s. Do any of you like any other than Tung Sol round plates with this amp? Any one try Sylvania Bad Boys?


----------



## saidentary

Power supplies for DC gear are a confusing topic to me.  What is the reason for the improvement with the LPS over the original?


----------



## bazelio

claud w said:


> Could some of you owners please share your favorite 12AT7 tubes you have used with this amp?
> I have lots of 6SN7s. Do any of you like any other than Tung Sol round plates with this amp? Any one try Sylvania Bad Boys?


 
  
 Recommendations:
  
 There are 12AT7 variants, and the Amperex 7062 is the best I've heard.  I would say it's the single best low cost change one can make to the MZ2.  $40-45 a pair and cheaper for the USA-made version.
  
 Consider the VT-99 in place of the 6SN7.  An adapter is required, and then, they won't fit in the case with the solid acrylic cover.  LTA makes a cover with two holes so they can stick out, though.  Personally, I've used National Union round plate VT-99 tubes.  And I like them.  I'm not interested in the Tungsol due to its significantly higher cost, but I suspect they're good as well.  I've heard negative impressions of the Bad Boys in the MZ2.  But to each his own.
  
 With the combination of Sigma-11 LPS, Amperex 7062, and National Union VT-99 ... I've suddenly stumbled upon a setup that I think I can live with longer term - and not just live with, but enjoy.  I am going to have a chance to hear a Torpedo3 with Cinemags soon, and I'm very much interested in how it'll compare/contrast.


----------



## merlin

Wow I just read the absolute sound review of the MZ2 and thank God for it as I thoght I was going crazy or aleast my hearing was. You see I was using a Joule Electra La150 preamp in front of my berning ZH270 amp but started to have a problem with the balance control on the pre (it has a small motor attached to the mechanical balance knob for remote control) which was becoming unstable. Now I have loved the preamp for many years but was forced to take it out of the chain for repairs so I dropped in the MZ2 which I was using as a headphone amp only and was absolutely blown away with the sound. Soundstage, bass, spacial seperation even treble all significantly better. I have since ordered the LPS and am anticipating even greater sound 

I just thought I should let you know that you should really try the MZ2 as a preamp in you systems


----------



## doctorjazz

I have to get a single ended interconnect, have been balanced (Peachtree Grand Pre preamp into Krell KSA-150), need a decent length to make it work. Also, with all the digital inputs available these days, the 2 inputs can be limiting (may be possible to use the Peachtree as a central DAC for other digital sources, not sure. Eventually I'm supposed to receive LH Labs Vi Tube DAC Special Edition, which should be able to act as a digital station and DAC, if you believe it's ever going to ship  Actually, expecting it should be sometime in the not too distant future, have heard from Larry on it). Don't want to spend a fortune on an interconnect at this time, on a Gear-Free Diet...


----------



## jamato8

merlin said:


> Wow I just read the absolute sound review of the MZ2 and thank God for it as I thoght I was going crazy or aleast my hearing was. You see I was using a Joule Electra La150 preamp in front of my berning ZH270 amp but started to have a problem with the balance control on the pre (it has a small motor attached to the mechanical balance knob for remote control) which was becoming unstable. Now I have loved the preamp for many years but was forced to take it out of the chain for repairs so I dropped in the MZ2 which I was using as a headphone amp only and was absolutely blown away with the sound. Soundstage, bass, spacial seperation even treble all significantly better. I have since ordered the LPS and am anticipating even greater sound
> 
> I just thought I should let you know that you should really try the MZ2 as a preamp in you systems


 

 The LPS PS is a must. You are going to gain even more of what you are already hearing.


----------



## hrq12345

Got the LPS today... First impression is the bass is more solid and probably deeper. It runs very hot though. Do you guys think it needs some burn-in? I don't hear the highs being less harsh as suggested by some of you earlier. (Maybe I should roll some tubes?)


----------



## willsw

hrq12345 said:


> Got the LPS today... First impression is the bass is more solid and probably deeper. It runs very hot though. Do you guys think it needs some burn-in? I don't hear the highs being less harsh as suggested by some of you earlier. (Maybe I should roll some tubes?)


 
  
 The harshness of the highs I don't have an answer for (I haven't experienced this except recently with Grados and a lot of violins), but the supply shouldn't be running very hot. Just yesterday I was carrying supplies that had been on for a few hours after having just turned them off, and the heat wasn't noticeable, though I suppose they must have been warm. The capacitors can benefit from burn in, but that wouldn't affect the heat of the unit. Is the supply noticeably hotter than the cover of the amp in the spot over the tubes?


----------



## jamato8

hrq12345 said:


> Got the LPS today... First impression is the bass is more solid and probably deeper. It runs very hot though. Do you guys think it needs some burn-in? I don't hear the highs being less harsh as suggested by some of you earlier. (Maybe I should roll some tubes?)


 

 It runs warm but not hot. The highs smooth out with burn-in of the PS but if it continues maybe it is the 12AT7 tubes or headphones or source or . .


----------



## hrq12345

jamato8 said:


> It runs warm but not hot. The highs smooth out with burn-in of the PS but if it continues maybe it is the 12AT7 tubes or headphones or source or . .


 
 I am thinking about switching 12AT7 tubes actually, would like to try some 7062 tubes.


----------



## hrq12345

willsw said:


> The harshness of the highs I don't have an answer for (I haven't experienced this except recently with Grados and a lot of violins), but the supply shouldn't be running very hot. Just yesterday I was carrying supplies that had been on for a few hours after having just turned them off, and the heat wasn't noticeable, though I suppose they must have been warm. The capacitors can benefit from burn in, but that wouldn't affect the heat of the unit. Is the supply noticeably hotter than the cover of the amp in the spot over the tubes?


 
 I will check later when I get back. It was not super hot but maybe as hot as the cover of the amp.


----------



## zachawry

OK, the LPS is in the house! Thanks Will and Mark for making a special Japanese version! I am psyched to have a literally unique piece of equipment on my desk. 
  
 I'm only a couple songs in, and I don't trust whatever first impressions I have to resist the siren call of the placebo effect, but now I finally see what people mean about an utterly black background. The background didn't seem particularly colorful before, but there is definitely an absence of something that was there but unnoticeable (to me). The blacker background seems to contribute to a greater sense of holographic presence, or, simply, "3D-ness." 
  
 I have to make a trip back to the States in a couple days, and now I really don't want to. I want to sit here and listen to music on this rig forever.


----------



## zachawry

Since it feels utterly alien to me not to have anything to be tempted to spend money on in this hobby, is there any potential benefit to upgrading the power cords (either to the LPS, or from LPS to the MZ2)? 
  
 I was just reading about differences with power cords in another thread, and I wonder whether those even theoretically apply to external power sources like the LPS as well.


----------



## doctorjazz

zachawry said:


> Since it feels utterly alien to me not to have anything to be tempted to spend money on in this hobby, is there any potential benefit to upgrading the power cords (either to the LPS, or from LPS to the MZ2)?
> 
> I was just reading about differences with power cords in another thread, and I wonder whether those even theoretically apply to external power sources like the LPS as well.




The 11th commandment-Thou Shalt Spend More Money On Audio!!!!

Haven't tried changing power cords on the Zotl yet, have done it for other gear (Liquid Carbon, my main stereo)...it does make a difference to change them, But it is a small difference. But, every small difference adds up. Generally, EVERYTHING changes the sound, usually not as much as the fans say it does, sometimes even in a negative direction A good beer is a GREAT tweak!


----------



## willsw

doctorjazz said:


> A good beer is a GREAT tweak!


 
  
 When in doubt about the system, tweak the listener.


----------



## jamato8

I am using the 7062 tube and loving it. The Amperex Holland. I would not get the pinched waste version. They are very microphonic and I don't enjoy the sound, even if they weren't microphonic. I will say though that with the LPS the stock tubes also shine. Start with a very good/great power supply and everything else will fall in line if you know design. You have to have a good foundation or nothing else will matter. By the way, the 7062 is a 10,000 hour tube so the life you will have with these is exceptional. I also find they need around 20 hours to settle in.


----------



## doctorjazz

Does the 7062 for in the stock ZOTL with the closed top?


----------



## jamato8

doctorjazz said:


> Does the 7062 for in the stock ZOTL with the closed top?


 

 The operating points of the 7062 are almost the same as the 12AT7 and it works well in its place. It is taller than the 12AT7 but fits fine under the top with about 1.5 inches of room to spare. No problems there.


----------



## zachawry

One more comment and I'll stop gushing about the LPS: I don't know what it does to the bass or the treble or whatnot. I can't break apart the spectrum in my head like that. 
  
 It does make every note more crystalline, more compelling, more present. Each sound seems like it drops out of a pure black void into the center of my head. 
  
 Whenever I have experienced a truly quantum jump in quality, I've had the urge to go back and listen to all my favorite music again to see how it sounds. This is what I'm experiencing now.


----------



## herehear

How does this amp compare to the Decware Zen Taboo III? Since I don't have access to listen to either amp I can only try to conclude from reviews and opinions about which one to purchase. Can anyone respond with some feedback?


----------



## WNBC

Will definitely let you know.  I'm one of those weird people that has had the ZOTL2 for months but haven't unboxed it yet.  Just waiting for the right time.  Still unpacking from a recent move, busy with work and looking for a nice audio rack.  I had the Taboo II and III.  With the mark III I also had the CSP3 in front as a preamp.  Very good combo but with some drawbacks.  More later.....  
  
  
  
 Quote:


herehear said:


> How does this amp compare to the Decware Zen Taboo III? Since I don't have access to listen to either amp I can only try to conclude from reviews and opinions about which one to purchase. Can anyone respond with some feedback?


----------



## eaglejo

I too had my Zotl2 in storage for a bit while we were renovating our house.  Well, it's now playing and it's great.  Just added some Sylvania 6SN7s and it's a nice improvement.  Get a good external psu and you'll be hard-pressed to find a better headphone amp.  Sonically, this thing is my cup of tea.


----------



## Wildcatsare1

Hey Guys, Mark and Will were extremely kind and sent me a MicroZOTL and PSU to share in Nashville and listen to in my home system. Really looking forward to seeing what my Buddy DrJazz has been raving about. 

Any modestly priced tubes you guys recommend? Noted that many of you think the 12AT7 makes the greater difference? I'll be using a Monarchy M22 DAC and HD800 (Anax and Draug 2) and LCD3f as my main cans.


----------



## doctorjazz

Think I posted the tubes I'm currently using (and enjoying) previously, I'll get the numbers and post them again when I get back.
Been comparing the ZOTL to the Liquid Crimson I just got on a tour yesterday, more to come...


----------



## doctorjazz

@Wildcatsare1-The tubes I substituted are Hytron 6SN7GT (got them from Arizona Tube Supply, NOS), and the 12AT7 is Siemans E81CC 3-MICA Munich, from Tubemonger.com), there are others more versed in tubes, with more to pick from and audition than I have (also tried RCA 6SN7GT, didn't love them, but I didn't love any of them singly, that is, the 6SN7 NOS with the stock 12AT7, or the NOS 12AT7 with the stock 6SN7, things came together when I used both the Hytron and Siemans NOS tubes at the same time. Never tried the RCA's with the Siemans, maybe that combination also works, even though the RCA with the stock 12AT7 didn't for me. That's all I know so far...


----------



## Wildcatsare1

doctorjazz said:


> @Wildcatsare1-The tubes I substituted are Hytron 6SN7GT (got them from Arizona Tube Supply, NOS), and the 12AT7 is Siemans E81CC 3-MICA Munich, from Tubemonger.com), there are others more versed in tubes, with more to pick from and audition than I have (also tried RCA 6SN7GT, didn't love them, but I didn't love any of them singly, that is, the 6SN7 NOS with the stock 12AT7, or the NOS 12AT7 with the stock 6SN7, things came together when I used both the Hytron and Siemans NOS tubes at the same time. Never tried the RCA's with the Siemans, maybe that combination also works, even though the RCA with the stock 12AT7 didn't for me. That's all I know so far...




Thank you Sir, I look forward to reading your review!


----------



## rocoa

Hello,
  
 I live in Spain and I'm thinking to buy a MicroZOTL2 + LPS.
 I've read in some post that there's a offcial reseller in Austria.
 Would someone let me know where can I find him please?
 Thank you in advance.


----------



## willsw

rocoa said:


> Hello,
> 
> I live in Spain and I'm thinking to buy a MicroZOTL2 + LPS.
> I've read in some post that there's a offcial reseller in Austria.
> ...


 
  
 That would be Andreas Pohnitzer at http://kopfhoererboutique.com/ 
  
 Later today the Linear Tube Audio website should be updated to include the dealers other than Urban HiFi where you can try out and purchase the MicroZOTL2. Off the top of my head there's Night and Day Audio in North Carolina, Care Audio in upper New Jersey, and Bright Audio in New York, though the list will be substantially longer soon, and include dealers in many more states. One note: if you want the original, $1100 base model with the switching supply, that will still only be available through Urban HiFi; the dealers will only be carrying the amp with the LPS.


----------



## rocoa

Thank you for your reply.
 I'm going contact him. I,m very fond of OTL sound with speakers but I don't have a OTL amp for headphones and I want to listen th ZOTL with my Audeze LCD3, Fostex TH900, ATH W3000 and others.....
 I'm using a Leben 300 amplifier with Audeze and Burson Virtuoso/Auralic Taurus with others.
 Regards.


----------



## jamato8

Every day I use the micro since receiving the LPS, I am amazed. I have been audio for many, many years and have built my own equipment, both tube and solid state but prefer tube. I have spend much more on a single piece of equipment building it, at wholesale costs, and the micro from a cost standpoint is a steal. Exceptional.


----------



## rocoa

Thank you for your impressions.
 I've owned a lot of tube amps and I like it. I'm curious to know how matches this amp with Audeze LCD3. I know that OTL matches very well with high impedance transducers but with low impedance.....I will see.


----------



## doctorjazz

Man, that's a lot of gear...I'd never even have the TIME to use it all, great!


----------



## rocoa

More than 20 years and thousands of hours listening.......


----------



## bazelio

Is that a Moth S2A3 half way down?  Very nice.


----------



## zach915m

I know LTA announced it earlier today but I wanted to mirror my excitement over the LTA x ZMF special edition Omni Wenge.
  

  
 I have to thank Will and Mark at LTA, as the special edition includes some really cool features that I never would have tried without their push:
  
 Full Lambskin Leather Pilot Pads
 Wenge wood cups with dark satin
 Gloss Black Sliders
  
 I had been hesitant to use Wenge because I thought it looked too much like Blackwood, but I was wrong on all fronts.  Not only does it have more prominent grain, but the sound is exceptionally pleasing.  The sound of a wood headphone depends greatly on the pore structure and density.  Wenge has larger pores then Blackwood and is just a touch softer, giving a great combination of speed, depth, and decay.  With the ZOTL, it's just perfect.
  
 My journey of the ZOTL started before I met the LTA guys, as I kept hearing it at head-fi meets before I decided I had to have one.  It's become the amp I go to for personal listening sessions often as it's a tube amp, but a powerful and clean sounding one at that strikes a balance between musical and linear, with an epic ability to drive planars like the Omni, HE1K, Ethers and the LCD series.
  
 I know this probably sounds like an advertisement, but I have really been smitten with this amp.  Nobody ever forced me to buy one, I personally bought one because of my multiple positive experiences with it before purchase. Since I've owned it I'm just as excited each day to juice it up and let the music flow.  I'm truly flattered that these guys wanted an Omni to help represent their amps capabilities.  I'm enjoying the ZOTL right now with some Raytheon 6SN7's I got as I found I like those and old Sylvania Bad Boys the best with some 12at7 Sylvania's from the 50's.
  
 Anyways, thank you LTA/Urban HiFi for making this great amp, is was a lot of fun picking out a wood to best represent the ZOTL's sound and I hope everyone enjoy's them!


----------



## zachawry

I've got the Alpha Primes and the Ethers, but the Omnis are really tempting as well!


----------



## zach915m

zachawry said:


> I've got the Alpha Primes and the Ethers, but the Omnis are really tempting as well!


 
  
 I should add that the LTA x ZMF Omni will only be sold through Urban HiFi (corrected!).


----------



## willsw

The ZMF&LTA Omnis will only be sold through *Urban HiFi**.
  
 Thus far Urban HiFi and Linear Tube Audio have been effectively interchangeable, as the former only sold the latter and the latter was only sold by the latter; and, of course, both are run by Mark Schneider. (Also, the person who designed the original websites decided to make them look exactly the same.) Both companies are growing, though, Urban HiFi as a retail dealer and LTA as a manufacturer, and Urban HiFi is adding non-LTA products to its roster as LTA is adding non-Urban Hifi dealers to its network. The LTA website no longer links directly to Urban HiFi, and now has a Where To Buy page with the growing list of places that have an amp in-store and also on their website.
  
 Doing a project with Zach and ZMF, who does custom, direct-sale work was made much easier in that conversations between the dealer and manufacturer were much simplified, and we're glad that one of the first not-totally-LTA things sold by Urban HiFi will be a ZMF headphone. Excited to bring them to AXPONA.


----------



## jamato8

willsw said:


> The ZMF&LTA Omnis will only be sold through *Urban HiFi**.
> 
> Thus far Urban HiFi and Linear Tube Audio have been effectively interchangeable, as the former only sold the latter and the latter was only sold by the latter; and, of course, both are run by Mark Schneider. (Also, the person who designed the original websites decided to make them look exactly the same.) Both companies are growing, though, Urban HiFi as a retail dealer and LTA as a manufacturer, and Urban HiFi is adding non-LTA products to its roster as LTA is adding non-Urban Hifi dealers to its network. The LTA website no longer links directly to Urban HiFi, and now has a Where To Buy page with the growing list of places that have an amp in-store and also on their website.
> 
> Doing a project with Zach and ZMF, who does custom, direct-sale work was made much easier in that conversations between the dealer and manufacturer were much simplified, and we're glad that one of the first not-totally-LTA things sold by Urban HiFi will be a ZMF headphone. Excited to bring them to AXPONA.


 

 Can you state the 2nd paragraph again? lol Got it, or I did get it until I read it a second time then until I thought about it, I realized that in fact I did get it, as in a "got it" moment.


----------



## doctorjazz

Ok, been very curious about the ZOTL as preamp. It's not all that flexible, for practical reasons likely continue using my Peachtree Grand pre, but I bought a single ended interconnect so I could try out the ZOTL as a preamp. Keep you posted.


----------



## rocoa

> Is that a Moth S2A3 half way down?  Very nice.


 
 Yes, it is a Moth Audio 2A3 purchased from Craig Uthus 18 years ago.


----------



## willsw

jamato8 said:


> Can you state the 2nd paragraph again? lol Got it, or I did get it until I read it a second time then until I thought about it, I realized that in fact I did get it, as in a "got it" moment.


 
  
 Just re-read that paragraph and it is quite convoluted. I meant to say that doing an exclusive involving two manufacturers and two dealers is much easier when on both sides the dealer and manufacturer are the same people. So it's just two people talking about what would be neat to do.


----------



## WNBC

Finally got the ZOTL + LPS fired up.  Impressive.  Gobs of microdetails and thats with the Mojo.  ZOTL is going scale well if I decide to get a better DAC.  New to the Mojo so maybe it is good enough.  Tonality is right there for me for string and brass instruments.  This amp + HD800S is going to be wonderful for jazz.  Still got to try it with other genres, but no hesitation in recommending the ZOTL to fans of the HD800.  Only used it for about a day now.  No urge to tube swap, but I know eventually the curiosity will get the best of me.  
  
 The bass is controlled and tight with this amp.  I can imagine pairing this amp with a more bassy headphone is going to pay dividends.  TH900 anyone?  ZMF Omni LTA version looks interesting.  Others who have tried the Omni feel it is in the same class as Alpha Prime?  A lot of competition in the $1K range of headphones these days.  Would love to hear them first.


----------



## zach915m

wnbc said:


> The bass is controlled and tight with this amp.  I can imagine pairing this amp with a more bassy headphone is going to pay dividends.  TH900 anyone?  ZMF Omni LTA version looks interesting.  Others who have tried the Omni feel it is in the same class as Alpha Prime?  A lot of competition in the $1K range of headphones these days.  Would love to hear them first.


 
  
 Omni has the *right* kind of bass for the ZOTL! 
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/products/zmf-headphones-omni
  
 Plenty of well written and informative reviews on head-fi.


----------



## WNBC

Thank you for the link.  I read the reviews and will get caught up with the thread.  ZMF is now on my short list of next headphone for the ZOTL.  I took some time off from the hobby in 2015 and I have been somewhat good about avoiding threads about new headphones that were not already on my radar.  But, I do feel that I want about 2-3 headphones to be exclusively used with the Carbon and ZOTL.  Then stick a fork in me.  Gorgeous headphones you have there sir.     
  
  
 Quote:


zach915m said:


> Omni has the *right* kind of bass for the ZOTL!
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/products/zmf-headphones-omni
> 
> Plenty of well written and informative reviews on head-fi.


----------



## jamato8

wnbc said:


> Finally got the ZOTL + LPS fired up.  Impressive.  Gobs of microdetails and thats with the Mojo.  ZOTL is going scale well if I decide to get a better DAC.  New to the Mojo so maybe it is good enough.  Tonality is right there for me for string and brass instruments.  This amp + HD800S is going to be wonderful for jazz.  Still got to try it with other genres, but no hesitation in recommending the ZOTL to fans of the HD800.  Only used it for about a day now.  No urge to tube swap, but I know eventually the curiosity will get the best of me.
> 
> The bass is controlled and tight with this amp.  I can imagine pairing this amp with a more bassy headphone is going to pay dividends.  TH900 anyone?  ZMF Omni LTA version looks interesting.  Others who have tried the Omni feel it is in the same class as Alpha Prime?  A lot of competition in the $1K range of headphones these days.  Would love to hear them first.


 

 TH900 work well. They are controlled, bass, and have an open sound. I use them hardwired with Whiplash Twau 8 braid cable. Great stuff the micro and the TH900!


----------



## zach915m

wnbc said:


>


 
  
 If you are in Washington state you could see if you're free to come down to Portland Oregon on May 7th for the head fi meet.  I'll have ZOTL and Omni there, and there are turning out to be tons of other vendors.


----------



## claud W

jamato8 said:


> I am using the 7062 tube and loving it. The Amperex Holland. I would not get the pinched waste version. They are very microphonic and I don't enjoy the sound, even if they weren't microphonic. I will say though that with the LPS the stock tubes also shine. Start with a very good/great power supply and everything else will fall in line if you know design. You have to have a good foundation or nothing else will matter. By the way, the 7062 is a 10,000 hour tube so the life you will have with these is exceptional. I also find they need around 20 hours to settle in.


 

 Just bought a pair of 1956 Amperex 7062s today. Also going to get a pair of Telfunken 801S. Those should hold me for a while. I have lots of NOS 6SN7s, even an unused pair of Tung Sol round plates. Every thing but the amp. An MZ2 and Senn HD800S cans will complete my system.  Which tubes affect the sound of the MZ2 the most??


----------



## claud W

Decided against the Telfunken 801S pair. Instead I bought Mullard and Valvo 6201 matched pairs and a pair of Telfunken 12AT7s. A little more variety for the price of the 801s. My vendors were Tube World and Upscale Audio.


----------



## krumley7882

willsw said:


> The ZMF&LTA Omnis will only be sold through *Urban HiFi**.
> 
> Thus far Urban HiFi and Linear Tube Audio have been effectively interchangeable, as the former only sold the latter and the latter was only sold by the latter; and, of course, both are run by Mark Schneider. (Also, the person who designed the original websites decided to make them look exactly the same.) Both companies are growing, though, Urban HiFi as a retail dealer and LTA as a manufacturer, and Urban HiFi is adding non-LTA products to its roster as LTA is adding non-Urban Hifi dealers to its network. The LTA website no longer links directly to Urban HiFi, and now has a Where To Buy page with the growing list of places that have an amp in-store and also on their website.
> 
> Doing a project with Zach and ZMF, who does custom, direct-sale work was made much easier in that conversations between the dealer and manufacturer were much simplified, and we're glad that one of the first not-totally-LTA things sold by Urban HiFi will be a ZMF headphone. Excited to bring them to AXPONA.


 
  
 Congrats!  Just wanted to say thanks for a great product.  I hope to purchase a ZMF pair in the not-so-distant future.  With recent cable upgrades (Zynonix), my LCD2's sound even more magical through the ZOTL.


----------



## zachawry

claud w said:


> Decided against the Telfunken 801S pair. Instead I bought Mullard and Valvo 6201 matched pairs and a pair of Telfunken 12AT7s. A little more variety for the price of the 801s. My vendors were Tube World and Upscale Audio.


 

 I bought a pair of used Telefunken 801S. They are wonderful: clear, a little dry, and with a highly holographic soundstage. 
  
 Still, I'm not sure it would be worth buying a NOS pair unless I were really rich.


----------



## jamato8

Listening to some Bob Marley. wow.


----------



## doctorjazz

Ya Mon!


----------



## sheldaze

jamato8 said:


> Listening to some Bob Marley. wow.


 
 No woman, no cry...
 Three little birds, beside my door step...
 I shot the sheriff, but I did not shoot the deputy...
 We no know how we and dem a-go work is-a out.
 Oh pirates, yes they rob I.


----------



## jamato8

The separation and dynamics with the Pioneer SE MAster1 coupled with the micro and some of Bob Marley's recordings is just too good.


----------



## zachawry

jamato8 said:


> The separation and dynamics with the Pioneer SE MAster1 coupled with the micro and some of Bob Marley's recordings is just too good.


 

 It's funny, some older recordings, even some that haven't been remastered, are really excellent. I haven't tried Bob Marley, but I will. 
  
 For me, listening to Led Zepplin's Physical Graffiti on my rig has been a revelation.


----------



## nephilim

Most of the time I would prefer the older recordings - the remastered versions are often adjusted to modern listening "taste" and are just loud but have lost the dynamics and dynamic range. Like an oversaturated photograph which just screams at you.


----------



## jamato8

I went from my VT99 round plate (one just bit the dust) to some RCA 6F8G square plate keeping the Amperex 7062 in place. Sound still excellent. As usual the input tube has the most influence on the sound. The 7062 doing really fine.


----------



## hrq12345

jamato8 said:


> I went from my VT99 round plate (one just bit the dust) to some RCA 6F8G square plate keeping the Amperex 7062 in place. Sound still excellent. As usual the input tube has the most influence on the sound. The 7062 doing really fine.


 
 Using the 7062 pinch waist as well. Sound is terrific! The 6SN7s I tried sound similar overall.


----------



## WNBC

Stock tubes have been impressive enough thus far that I have not felt the urge to upgrade.  I can recall the madness of when I had other tube amps and the need for constant tweaks.  This may be one of the few times in this hobby that I've shown any restraint, LTA LPS doesn't count 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.  In the end, it might not cost a lot to try a few different input tubes, but I'll break in the stock tubes and learn their sound before switching.


----------



## jamato8

hrq12345 said:


> Using the 7062 pinch waist as well. Sound is terrific! The 6SN7s I tried sound similar overall.


 

 I need to get my pinched waste, shoulder on the 7062, back out and let them burn in. I didn't like them and pulled them but I know many do and they most likely need more time in socket with the fire on. lol


----------



## jamato8

wnbc said:


> Stock tubes have been impressive enough thus far that I have not felt the urge to upgrade.  I can recall the madness of when I had other tube amps and the need for constant tweaks.  This may be one of the few times in this hobby that I've shown any restraint, LTA LPS doesn't count
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I agree, the stock tubes sound very good. It is the amp that does the job better in this case than I have heard in the past. Ok, the pinched 7062 sound very good. I give this to the new LPS supply. Start with a great power supply and everything else is better. I would not get the micro without this supply.


----------



## Hifi01170

a noob question: which ones are the input tubes in stock version? the 6sn7 or the 12at7??
  
 Cheers!


----------



## nephilim

12at7


----------



## bazelio

12AT7 are the input tubes.  Try 7062 in their place.


----------



## zachawry

So, the 12AT7s boost the signal (like a pre-amp) for the 6SN7s, or the other way around?


----------



## jamato8

zachawry said:


> So, the 12AT7s boost the signal (like a pre-amp) for the 6SN7s, or the other way around?


 

 The 12AT7 feed the 6SN7 tube an amplified signal. The 6SN7 is your output/power tube, in this situation.


----------



## WNBC

Would love to but I have twins duty on weekends as my wife works.  If there is high demand for 2 year olds at the Portland meet let me know, but I'll assume you all will want to listen to your headphones in a more hospitable environment   However, I am looking forward to the LTA ZMF Omni meet reviews/comments and probably will eventually get one of the 40 available....maybe #39 or 40 when the wife isn't looking 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
  
 Quote:


zach915m said:


> If you are in Washington state you could see if you're free to come down to Portland Oregon on May 7th for the head fi meet.  I'll have ZOTL and Omni there, and there are turning out to be tons of other vendors.


----------



## yukihasi

Crying for a dual mono microzotl now...is there any plan for xlr input on microzotl?


----------



## jamato8

yukihasi said:


> Crying for a dual mono microzotl now...is there any plan for xlr input on microzotl?


 

 I imagine anything can be had for a price. Well maybe not eternal life on earth but then . . . we are getting into a hole different arena.


----------



## bazelio

jamato8 said:


> we are getting into a _*hole*_ different arena.


 
  
  
 Pun intended?


----------



## jamato8

bazelio said:


> Pun intended?


 

 Yes.


----------



## yage

yukihasi said:


> Crying for a dual mono microzotl now...is there any plan for xlr input on microzotl?




You'd want a dual *differential* design for a true balanced amp... Be prepared for at least a doubling of the price since you have twice the parts count.


----------



## eaglejo

I think there's lower hanging fruit out there to improve the Zotl2 than going differential balanced.  If I were to rank the sonic improvements to my Zotl2, I'd have to say, funds permitting, upgrade the psu, swap the fuse out to a Synergistic Black and then go to the tubes.  I'm running some Sylvannia 6S7Nw's in mine.  I'm in the minority on this one, but swapping out the input tubes to some 7062s didn't do it for me.  My current Zotl2 is absolutely the best sound I've ever gotten out of a headphone rig.  I'd put it up against pretty much anything out there.  Stunning dynamics/prat, immediacy, resolution, and musicality.


----------



## bazelio

eaglejo said:


> I think there's lower hanging fruit out there to improve the Zotl2 than going differential balanced.  If I were to rank the sonic improvements to my Zotl2, I'd have to say, funds permitting, upgrade the psu, swap the fuse out to a Synergistic Black and then go to the tubes.  I'm running some Sylvannia 6S7Nw's in mine.  I'm in the minority on this one, but swapping out the input tubes to some 7062s didn't do it for me.  My current Zotl2 is absolutely the best sound I've ever gotten out of a headphone rig.  I'd put it up against pretty much anything out there.  Stunning dynamics/prat, immediacy, resolution, and musicality.




Yes. LPS first. I'm skeptical of things like fuses once the power delivery has been cleaned up. But tubes are also a must after LPS. What I like with the 7062 is the soundstage expansion and clean, uncolored mids and highs. I do not think there is any 12AT7 that stages like the 7062. And BTW the US and Holland 7062s are a bit different.

I've ordered a Torpedo3 kit with Cinemags. This kit is 800 bucks. I'll also run 7062s in it, and once I get around to soldering it up and assembling, I'll do some listening tests. A/B ZOTL2 vs T3, ZOTL2 as a preamp to the T3, etc. Consider the ZOTL2 is 1100 plus LPS (I put 200 into my AMB s11) it ought to be a very fair comparison. $1300 vs $800. I've already heard both briefly, and while more listening is certainly needed, I'll give a quick spoiler... Each has its strengths over the other. So while I've grown to like the ZOTL2, I don't think I'd put it up against anything out there. Certainly NOT my ZDS, but maybe not even everything IN its own price bracket or even below...


----------



## eaglejo

I love the Eddie Current stuff and currently own one a custom phonostage he made for me (with Cinemag's best transformers) and used to own his Balancing Act.  I still have his phonostage which bettered the one in my EAR 868 pre-amp.  I've never been able to give the Zana Deux a serious listen.  I have listened to it and it was great, but I never listened to it in my own rig with my own sources, so that a serious comparison was possible.  That is, you change one and only one thing in the chain.  I hope to a/b the Zotl2 against my friend's BA and another friend's Donald North stuff.  Both guys have very nice speaker rigs and have listened to most of the best headphone amps out there with great sources (the $20k Rockna dac, Metrux Hex, Berkeley Reference, Bricasti and on and on).   Fuses certainly make a difference.  If you're dismissive of this, then we hear things differently.  Much differently.  I bought the Amperex 7062s (from Holland).  I like the versatility of the 6SN7s.  I think with this tube you have a much broader range of sonic habitats available.


----------



## bazelio

eaglejo said:


> I love the Eddie Current stuff and currently own one a custom phonostage he made for me (with Cinemag's best transformers) and used to own his Balancing Act.  I still have his phonostage which bettered the one in my EAR 868 pre-amp.  I've never been able to give the Zana Deux a serious listen.  I have listened to it and it was great, but I never listened to it in my own rig with my own sources, so that a serious comparison was possible.  That is, you change one and only one thing in the chain.  I hope to a/b the Zotl2 against my friend's BA and another friend's Donald North stuff.  Both guys have very nice speaker rigs and have listened to most of the best headphone amps out there with great sources (the $20k Rockna dac, Metrux Hex, Berkeley Reference, Bricasti and on and on).   Fuses certainly make a difference.  If you're dismissive of this, then we hear things differently.  Much differently.  I bought the Amperex 7062s (from Holland).  I like the versatility of the 6SN7s.  I think with this tube you have a much broader range of sonic habitats available.




The MZ2 doesn't have a big soundstage in general but the 7062s improve it, and the MZ2 seems to resist attempts at achieving a warmer sound fairly stridently. A BA vs MZ2 is about as apples vs tangelos a comparison one might find while staying within the realm of tube amps. 

Fuses, I haven't said they don't make a difference. I have said I'm skeptical of a fuse as low hanging fruit after power delivery is cleaned up. My experience dictates diminishing returns from fuses after other items are addressed.

If you ever want to sell that EC phono stage do let me know.


----------



## jamato8

I don't go for the expensive fuses but I do use ceramic fuses that are sand filled. They are for ultra fast fuse action and the material inside is so they can't arc over but a benefit for audio is that the material dampens the fuse material. This keeps the wire still and less prone to any micro vibrations, therefore it doesn't vibrate in a field, which can induce noise on the DC signal. I have used them for years and while more expensive compared to your standard glass fuse, they are worth it and a fraction of the cost of the silver fuses etc.


----------



## bazelio

jamato8 said:


> I don't go for the expensive fuses but I do use ceramic fuses that are sand filled. They are for ultra fast fuse action and the material inside is so they can't arc over but a benefit for audio is that the material dampens the fuse material. This keeps the wire still and less prone to any micro vibrations, therefore it doesn't vibrate in a field, which can induce noise on the DC signal. I have used them for years and while more expensive compared to your standard glass fuse, they are worth it and a fraction of the cost of the silver fuses etc.


 
  
  
 I'd be interested in seeing some quantitative measurements that lend credence to this.  The ceramic fuses aren't filled with sand for this reason, but to absorb heat.  So quite possibly, this theory could be yet another case of audiophilia gone awry...  or not.  It'd be interesting to know.  On the other hand, ceramic sand filled fuses aren't cost prohibitive to try out for the heck of it.  My local Radio Shack used to sell them.


----------



## jamato8

bazelio said:


> I'd be interested in seeing some quantitative measurements that lend credence to this.  The ceramic fuses aren't filled with sand for this reason, but to absorb heat.  So quite possibly, this theory could be yet another case of audiophilia gone awry...  or not.  It'd be interesting to know.  On the other hand, ceramic sand filled fuses aren't cost prohibitive to try out for the heck of it.  My local Radio Shack used to sell them.


 
Operation 
 Under normal operating conditions the current flowing through the fuse element does not provide enough energy to melt the element. The heat produced is absorbed by the surrounding silica sand.

 If a large current flows the energy produced melts and vapourises the element.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 The time taken to reach this point is known as the pre arcing time. The high prospective fault current is ‘cut off’ although an arc will still be formed. The heat produced by the arc causes the fuse element to fuse with the silica sand and for the silica sand to absorb the energy. This has the effect of extinguishing the arc and stopping further current flow. The time taken to reach this point is known as the total clearance time.


----------



## bazelio

Right. The sand affects what happens when you blow a fuse.

But back to the discussion of "microphonic" fuses, I've never seen measurements. So I don't know if this vibration-induced noise (assuming it actually exists) is present under normal operating conditions or only under strange corner conditions such as King Kong doing jumping jacks in your front yard. I tend to suspect the latter.


----------



## doctorjazz

bazelio said:


> Right. The sand affects what happens when you blow a fuse.
> 
> But back to the discussion of "microphonic" fuses, I've never seen measurements. So I don't know if this vibration-induced noise (assuming it actually exists) is present under normal operating conditions or only under strange corner conditions such as King Kong doing jumping jacks in your front yard. I tend to suspect the latter.




I wondered what the house shaking was about...


----------



## defbear

doctorjazz said:


> I wondered what the house shaking was about...


That was me jumping up and down  I have ordered a microZOTL2 with LPS and the new matching ZMF headphones. I get the first production LTA limited ZMF Omni's. Mark had the first set they used to demo at a show in Chicago and offered it to me. I have about 20 tube guitar amps. An older Fender Tweed Deluxe uses 6SN7 tubes. I laid away a few sets I picked up in the 90's. And I have several 12at7's of various vintage. I have enough NOS and new tubes I actually bought a Big TV Repairman box for them.


----------



## zachawry

Defbear, I'm almost jealous!


----------



## doctorjazz

defbear said:


> doctorjazz said:
> 
> 
> > I wondered what the house shaking was about...
> ...




Congratulations! Enjoy the new toys! Curious to hear what you think about tube rolling when you get a chance.


----------



## defbear

zachawry said:


> Defbear, I'm almost jealous!


 

 Don't be. It was a stretch money wise. Almost is ok. I've been needled by doctorjazz's posts for months now. (kidding) I wasn't going to get the headphones, but this is the first set. Last prototype/first production set.  Zach at ZMF brought them to the Axpona show for Urban Hi-Fi to demo the amp with. I assumed it would be a good set.


----------



## defbear

doctorjazz said:


> Congratulations! Enjoy the new toys! Curious to hear what you think about tube rolling when you get a chance.


 

 I actually do have decades of experience fooling with tube guitar amps and tube rolling. I have to say we are in a golden age of tube production. Most of the new tubes today are Great and a Safe Bet. If the tube says Gold Lion, Mullard, Tungsol, Sovtek it come out of Russia produced by Mike Matthews of Electro Harmonix fame.Yes American owned. Ok, I do have a Schiit Lyr2. I've done some tube rolling with it. I have six sets of various NOS RCA, Phillips and others. The new Gold Lions sounded best. I have a yellow Speedster Guitar amp. Anyone at NAMM during the late 90's saw this thing. It takes 6v6 power tubes. Now I Have NOS 6v6's to beat the band. Any buzzword 6v6's you want to name and I may have sets. And hands down a set of Russian Ruby Tubes sounded best. The gist is, you can get brand new tubes which can be just as nice as expensive NOS or used.


----------



## zachawry

Funny, it was doctorjazz's posts that got me interested in the MZ2, as well. 
  
 They oughta send him a box of chocolates.


----------



## Wildcatsare1

Make me a Third on DrJazz influenced interest, I am really looking forward to hearing this amp!!! Mark and Will are going to start you on a commission program Doc .


----------



## RKML0007

Yep - from the LC thread(s), haha!


----------



## doctorjazz

Man, I heard about it from the raves of DrBlueNewMexico...he got serial #0001 (I think), I got #0002 (he has the original MicroZOTL as well, that's what started all this, he suggested the ZOTL's time had come).
About to have an updated ZOTL review posted on Headphone.Guru.

And to all my fans, thank you, thank you, thank you, if I'm chosen, I'll do all I can to bring about world peace!!!  (not sure you want to see me in the swimsuit competition, though... )


----------



## svmusa

I have my MicroZotl2 for sale in classifieds with Ken-Rad VT231/6SN7 and Sylvania GB 6201/12AT7 gold pin NOS tubes. Excellent amp but I don't use much at all and is collecting dust, some fellow member can benefit from this.
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/806437/microzotl2-amp-with-ken-rad-vt231-6sn7-and-sylvania-6201-12at7-gb-gold-pin-nos-tubes
  
 Thx


----------



## zachawry

svmusa said:


> I have my MicroZotl2 for sale in classifieds with Ken-Rad VT231/6SN7 and Sylvania GB 6201/12AT7 gold pin NOS tubes. Excellent amp but I don't use much at all and is collecting dust, some fellow member can benefit from this.
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/806437/microzotl2-amp-with-ken-rad-vt231-6sn7-and-sylvania-6201-12at7-gb-gold-pin-nos-tubes
> 
> Thx


 

 I'm actually tempted to get a second one for my bedroom. Can't, unfortunately, because life, but tempted.


----------



## Wildcatsare1

Came home tonight and I found a brand new MicroZOTL 2 and LPS on my doorstep!!! Regretting being a late adapter, DrJazz, Blue, et. Al., were right this is an incredible amp!!!! Thanks to Mark and Will for bringing the ZOTL back


----------



## sheldaze

wildcatsare1 said:


> Came home tonight and I found a brand new MicroZOTL 2 and LPS on my doorstep!!! Regretting being a late adapter, DrJazz, Blue, et. Al., were right this is an incredible amp!!!! Thanks to Mark and Will for bringing the ZOTL back


----------



## defbear

Mine arrives Monday. But @sheldaze post above says it all!


----------



## EdmontonCanuck

defbear said:


> Mine arrives Monday. But @sheldaze post above says it all!


 
  
 Welcome to the club!


----------



## defbear

edmontoncanuck said:


> Welcome to the club!


Thank you. I'm so proud.


----------



## yukihasi

Daydream of today - what if a cost no object zotl technology headphone amp?
The TOTL headphone amp (non electrostatic) market has quite limited choices, SS amps stops around $4000 I believe? Over that price point we've got some tube amps that use expensive and hard to source transformers and volume controllers etc, which is the way people should do to improve sound quality for those designs. Seems to me the conventional designs are approaching their limits. 
The microzotl2 give me some faith that there might be some other way to improve the sonical performance. Wish one day I could see the zotl technology brought to it's limit on headphone amp.


----------



## jamato8

yukihasi said:


> Daydream of today - what if a cost no object zotl technology headphone amp?
> The TOTL headphone amp (non electrostatic) market has quite limited choices, SS amps stops around $4000 I believe? Over that price point we've got some tube amps that use expensive and hard to source transformers and volume controllers etc, which is the way people should do to improve sound quality for those designs. Seems to me the conventional designs are approaching their limits.
> The microzotl2 give me some faith that there might be some other way to improve the sonical performance. Wish one day I could see the zotl technology brought to it's limit on headphone amp.


 

 I am sure there will be a cost no object Zotl. You could go with Goldpoint volume attenuator, Whiplash Twau internal wiring and some other measures. I think though even with some expensive stuff used, like silver in the wiring of the transformers, it would not be as expensive as many TOTL tube amps and sound better at the same time. IMO


----------



## willsw

It is an interesting subject. I think we'd be more active in pursuing it if cost being no object didn't cost so much. We have a growing list of ways of possibly improving the amp through component replacements, which is the only route we can take with making a a TOTL MicroZOTL, as the board and its specifications, like tube type, are all rigid. The dream version would involve us having David Berning design a new headphone amp to our specifications, as the ZOTL10 and ZOTL40 were. To my knowledge it would be the first time David Berning would design an amp with headphones in mind, as the original MicroZOTL was (to exaggerate slightly) just a fleawatt loss leader that Dick Olsher suggested have a headphone output. 
  
 These are all my personal thoughts and not what LTA is thinking. In any case, the weather is, or was and will again soon, getting warmer, which means David is out biking all day and not designing amps that use his name and sell for much less than his own brand.


----------



## jamato8

willsw said:


> It is an interesting subject. I think we'd be more active in pursuing it if cost being no object didn't cost so much. We have a growing list of ways of possibly improving the amp through component replacements, which is the only route we can take with making a a TOTL MicroZOTL, as the board and its specifications, like tube type, are all rigid. The dream version would involve us having David Berning design a new headphone amp to our specifications, as the ZOTL10 and ZOTL40 were. To my knowledge it would be the first time David Berning would design an amp with headphones in mind, as the original MicroZOTL was (to exaggerate slightly) just a fleawatt loss leader that Dick Olsher suggested have a headphone output.
> 
> These are all my personal thoughts and not what LTA is thinking. In any case, the weather is, or was and will again soon, getting warmer, which means David is out biking all day and not designing amps that use his name and sell for much less than his own brand.


 

 It wouldn't require a redesign or the changing of any design. It would be some component upgrades. These don't normally jump out as WOW, what a change but do subtle good changes but as with the PS upgrade (though the PS upgrade to me, is more than subtle), it can be seen there is always room. A volume control upgrade and wire doesn't change the design but since they are directly in the signal path, they obviously are very important and sometimes not looked at hard enough. Of course there are constraints in making something affordable and the micro2 has done this extremely well so to that, cost wise, it can be sideways, but still an improvement on things like a Goldpoint attenuator and Whiplash wire, yes they cost more but that would be for a same design upgraded component, that some may appreciate and some may not care about.


----------



## willsw

jamato8 said:


> It wouldn't require a redesign or the changing of any design. It would be some component upgrades. These don't normally jump out as WOW, what a change but do subtle good changes but as with the PS upgrade (though the PS upgrade to me, is more than subtle), it can be seen there is always room. A volume control upgrade and wire doesn't change the design but since they are directly in the signal path, they obviously are very important and sometimes not looked at hard enough. Of course there are constraints in making something affordable and the micro2 has done this extremely well so to that, cost wise, it can be sideways, but still an improvement on things like a Goldpoint attenuator and Whiplash wire, yes they cost more but that would be for a same design upgraded component, that some may appreciate and some may not care about.


 
  
 I agree that the MicroZOTL2, with component upgrades, can become the TOTL amp some people desire, while it already is a TOTL amp for many people. I was thinking about an amp that offered what most headphone users would expect if they were paying the prices yukihasi referred to, which I see as primarily two things: balanced and single-ended outputs and inputs, and higher wattage. While the former is debatable, I do think the latter would be required to be considered truly TOTL and not have any footnotes on that label. It would not be a MicroZOTL anymore, but ZOTL nonetheless.


----------



## jamato8

willsw said:


> I agree that the MicroZOTL2, with component upgrades, can become the TOTL amp some people desire, while it already is a TOTL amp for many people. I was thinking about an amp that offered what most headphone users would expect if they were paying the prices yukihasi referred to, which I see as primarily two things: balanced and single-ended outputs and inputs, and higher wattage. While the former is debatable, I do think the latter would be required to be considered truly TOTL and not have any footnotes on that label. It would not be a MicroZOTL anymore, but ZOTL nonetheless.


 

 I would agree that the micro Zotl2 is a TOTL amp and a fraction of the price of most TOTL headphones amps. I am not sure of the need for higher wattage. Finesse is also part of a TOTL amp and that mean presenting the sound in the best way possible and while plenty of headroom is a good thing, some very fine amps are the most powerful.


----------



## TomekZ

What surprises me is how little comment is made about the microZOTL powering speakers. I've powered Omega speakers of 94.5 db, Epos Elan 15 at 90 db, and some home brew two ways with a simple crossover at 87 db/watt/meter. A single class A push/pull tube watt can go along way. With all of these, I enjoy the microZOTL more than my 6EM7 push/pull tube amp, Red Wine Audio Signature 16 (second best) or a fine gainclone (of which in the early part of this century I had tried perhaps 10 variety of). From the David Berning site this review of the original microZOTL http://davidberning.com/products/microzotl/review_gizmo .  For me off all electronics I've heard in nearly 40 years of being an audiophile, the microZOTL has been the most impressive.


----------



## jamato8

I have some fine Newform Research 645's sitting in the garage I need to set up. Looking forward to this.


----------



## doctorjazz

I don't have any speakers efficient enough to be driven by the ZOTL (my main rig uses Thiel 3.6 speakers, which are actually really difficult to drive). I did get a decent interconnect to try the ZOTL as a preamp (up until now running balanced into the amp), though, get to it one of these days (on the to do list... ).


----------



## zachawry

I have been almost exclusively headphone-focussed for many years now, but I do have a pair of Dynaudio 1.1s that are still sitting in boxes from my recent move. 
  
 This page says they have "nominal impedance of 4 Ohms, and a nominal sensitivity of 88 dB/1W/1m."
 http://www.tnt-audio.com/casse/contour1-1_e.html
  
 I don't know enough to say whether that means they could be reasonably powered by the MZ2. Anyone with more knowledge than me?


----------



## yage

zachawry said:


> I have been almost exclusively headphone-focussed for many years now, but I do have a pair of Dynaudio 1.1s that are still sitting in boxes from my recent move.
> 
> This page says they have "nominal impedance of 4 Ohms, and a nominal sensitivity of 88 dB/1W/1m."
> http://www.tnt-audio.com/casse/contour1-1_e.html
> ...
 

 It's spec'd to output 1W @ 4 ohms, so you'll get ~88 dB SPL / m. Depending on how loud you like to listen to music and how far away you're sitting, it might be just enough or you might send the amp into clipping fairly often. Here's a handy calculator that you can use - http://www.crownaudio.com/en-US/tools/calculators#amp_power_required.


----------



## willsw

We recommend above 90db for using for desktop speakers (while you're sitting at the desk) and above 95db for a room. I use 96db Klipsch bookshelf speakers (RP-160M) in a 10'x12' apartment living room and am quite content - I usually turn it up to about 3pm at first but then find that to be actually louder than I want the music to be, and it heads back up to about 1pm. Just remember to unplug your headphones.


----------



## Audio Addict

Any pictures of the alternative top with the taller 6SN7 alternative tubes?


----------



## willsw

audio addict said:


> Any pictures of the alternative top with the taller 6SN7 alternative tubes?


 
  
 From earlier in the thread:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/771234/lightbox/post/12319234/id/1561500


----------



## Beammeup

I have been running the MicroZOTL 2.0 into a relatively inefficient (85 db/watt) pair of 8 ohm, Linn Katan speakers in a desktop setup. I have been driving this combo with the DAC out setting of my Burson V2+. As long as I keep the volume level up around 80 on the Burson -REMOVE HEADPHONES FIRST!- I get very acceptable listening levels with the MicroZOTL in the 12 to 1 o'clock position. Small room, no head-banging music, your mileage may vary, etc.

As amazing as the HEKs sound through this amp, it is very nice to be able to have the option of speakers or headphones. This truly is an amazing piece of equipment for this type of setup. Now, if it only came with a built in Sabre DAC........


----------



## Audio Addict

willsw said:


> From earlier in the thread:
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/771234/lightbox/post/12319234/id/1561500




Sorry, I can not get the link to work.


----------



## willsw

audio addict said:


> Sorry, I can not get the link to work.


 
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/771234/microzotl2-tube-headphone-amp-and-preamp-a-breakthrough-device/900#post_12319234
  
 That one should be friendlier.


----------



## zachawry

Alright, I tried to drive my speakers with the MZ2, but with no success. 
  
 I did get sufficient volume (about noon), but there were two problems:
  
 1. My spade speaker cables would only fit onto the posts at a very specific angle, and I couldn't get this angle on the inside pair. 
 At anything other than this one specific one angle, the post appeared too large. 
  
 2. What sound I did get out of the one speaker was weirdly hollow and boomy. 
  
 Oh well, now I don't have to be tempted to get another MZ2, so this is actually a fine outcome.


----------



## willsw

zachawry said:


> Alright, I tried to drive my speakers with the MZ2, but with no success.
> 
> I did get sufficient volume (about noon), but there were two problems:
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yeah, 88db + 1 watt = not a good listening experience. You _could_ get another MicroZOTL2 and monoblock them for a monstrous 1.7 or so watts per channel, except that 1.7 wpc + 88db still = not a great listening experience.
  
 Luckily, guys, Linear Tube Audio thought about this problem! Have 88db speakers and only a MicroZOTL? We've got you covered.


----------



## zachawry

willsw said:


> Yeah, 88db + 1 watt = not a good listening experience. You _could_ get another MicroZOTL2 and monoblock them for a monstrous 1.7 or so watts per channel, except that 1.7 wpc + 88db still = not a great listening experience.
> 
> Luckily, guys, Linear Tube Audio thought about this problem! Have 88db speakers and only a MicroZOTL? We've got you covered.


 

 You have such a nice-guy online persona, Will, but now we have definitive proof of your evilness. 
  
 I will have to continue slumming with my old Krell. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I do wonder why the posts seem too large, and why I got decent volume, but not decent sound.


----------



## doctorjazz

Same here, my Thiel 3.6 speakers will have to settle for the old Krell KSA-150, though, eventually, I'll get around to trying the ZOTL as a preamp.


----------



## yage

zachawry said:


> 2. What sound I did get out of the one speaker was weirdly hollow and boomy.


 
  
 Did you wire one speaker out of phase? I know I get that effect when I've done that on accident...


----------



## defbear

Huzzah! My microZOTL2 has arrived. I immediately hooked it up to my Bifrost Multibit with a set of hd800 and a macbook pro running Amarra. I'm pretty stupefied right now. Does not happen often. (Chime in) This amp is amazing. Buzzword list: Bass, clarity, soundstage, detail, Prat, pratty, Prat. My poor Liquid Carbon now sounds like a dull flat uh corn husk (sorta  )


----------



## doctorjazz

defbear said:


> Huzzah! My microZOTL2 has arrived. I immediately hooked it up to my Bifrost Multibit with a set of hd800 and a macbook pro running Amarra. I'm pretty stupefied right now. Does not happen often. (Chime in) This amp is amazing. Buzzword list: Bass, clarity, soundstage, detail, Prat, pratty, Prat. My poor Liquid Carbon now sounds like a dull flat uh corn husk (sorta  )




Congrats, enjoy the new toy!


----------



## defbear

doctorjazz said:


> Congrats, enjoy the new toy!


Thank you! You were and are correct. The MZL sounds better than the Liquid Carbon. A great recommendation from doctorjazz.
Errg, AArg Friend Good!


----------



## doctorjazz

defbear said:


> doctorjazz said:
> 
> 
> > Congrats, enjoy the new toy!
> ...




I've been resisting the "I told you so", couldn't do it anymore.  Seems most of the doubters who tried it have been impressed. (and, as I always say, I LIKE the LC. Just like the ZOTL a whole lot more...)


----------



## defbear

I was able to try a MZL with a set of Ether headphones. It sounded clear, distinct and seemed full of potential. Well mine just Slams! I was not prepared for all the bass. It does not overwhelm anything. Just lovely. My hd800 set seems well balanced. I don't know if they are just finally broken on or if the Norne Draug II cable is it. All the treble you could want but not harsh and a very present bass. I was warned the hd800 might not work well with the MZL. But my hd800 and the MZL seem a Golden Combonation. So much to do. Gotta see how the master 11 DAC sounds in it. Then there's the Pono to try with it. There will be some 'Testing of Equipment with Music'!


----------



## jamato8

There is no reason that any normal headphone would not work with the MZ. It has a low output impedance, has plenty of power, is neutral and neither bass heavy or light and just plain delivers a very high quality signal. Listening with the T1 2nd generation and it all sounds excellent and why not, if the headphones are up to it, the MZ certainly is.


----------



## doctorjazz

I use the Pono as a source for it often, have brought the combo to meets and gotten great response on it.


----------



## hrq12345

defbear said:


> I was able to try a MZL with a set of Ether headphones. It sounded clear, distinct and seemed full of potential. Well mine just Slams! I was not prepared for all the bass. It does not overwhelm anything. Just lovely. My hd800 set seems well balanced. I don't know if they are just finally broken on or if the Norne Draug II cable is it. All the treble you could want but not harsh and a very present bass. I was warned the hd800 might not work well with the MZL. But my hd800 and the MZL seem a Golden Combonation. So much to do. Gotta see how the master 11 DAC sounds in it. Then there's the Pono to try with it. There will be some 'Testing of Equipment with Music'!


 
 Well, I said in this thread before that HD800 pairs with ZOTL2 nicely.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Glad someone else enjoys it too


----------



## Wildcatsare1

hrq12345 said:


> Well, I said in this thread before that HD800 pairs with ZOTL2 nicely.  Glad someone else enjoys it too




I'll second the ZOTL/HD800 combo, have really enjoyed combination (with a great R2R DAC and the Norne Draug 2 Cable).


----------



## defbear

wildcatsare1 said:


> I'll second the ZOTL/HD800 combo, have really enjoyed combination (with a great R2R DAC and the Norne Draug 2 Cable).


And which DAC was dat? I upgraded my Bifrost uber to Multibit. It's a Bimby. Didn't work well with anything except my Lyr2. Well the microZOTL2 loves it. I got a Chord Mojo. It sounds far better through the MZL than through it's own headphone output. But the Bimby beats the Mojo into the MZL. I was thinking of getting an upgraded DAC. Bimby might suffice. The Bimby has a bigger soundstage and Gravitas about it. The Mojo is Smooth. I think I'm a little smoothed out. Or at least have access to smooth. I think the DAC is the major player along with source files. What DAC rages with the microZOTL2? Has anyone tried the Mussette offered by LTA and Urban Hi-Fi?


----------



## zachawry

I would like to know if anyone has tried the Yggy with the MZ2. I don't have the money yet, but I'm thinking about it. 
  
 Right now I'm using a Hugo, which sounds fabulous, but I'm highly curious about the Yggy because I hear it just beats the Hugo for detail, and I am an unreconstructed detail freak.


----------



## jamato8

I prefer the Hugo and the MZ over the Mojo.


----------



## doctorjazz

I'm currently mostly using LH Labs Geek Out Special Edition into the ZOTL (Regen and LH 2G USB). Also the Pono. Am awaiting the LH Labs Vi Tube DAC Special Edition (yeah, I fell into the LH Labs Rabbit hole REAL good), hopefully in the not too distant future (the solid state Vi DAC has been seen in the wild at this point). It will have its own headphone amp, but, of course, I'll have to see how it does with the ZOTL as amp as well...


----------



## willsw

zachawry said:


> I would like to know if anyone has tried the Yggy with the MZ2. I don't have the money yet, but I'm thinking about it.
> 
> Right now I'm using a Hugo, which sounds fabulous, but I'm highly curious about the Yggy because I hear it just beats the Hugo for detail, and I am an unreconstructed detail freak.


 
  
 I'm pretty sure that if Zach at ZMF or MrSpeakers has their MicroZOTL2s on the table at meets or shows, they hook them up to Yggys, though it's usually people write impressions about the headphones they're listening to in these situations, when they're sitting at a headphone vendor's table. @zach915m might have an opinion on the Yggy as a DAC pairing. 
  


doctorjazz said:


> I'm currently mostly using LH Labs Geek Out Special Edition into the ZOTL (Regen and LH 2G USB). Also the Pono. Am awaiting the LH Labs Vi Tube DAC Special Edition (yeah, I fell into the LH Labs Rabbit hole REAL good), hopefully in the not too distant future (the solid state Vi DAC has been seen in the wild at this point). It will have its own headphone amp, but, of course, I'll have to see how it does with the ZOTL as amp as well...


 
  
 I was using the LH Labs Geek Pulse X as my DAC before I started babysitting our demo Musette between shows and thought it paired really well. Plus, the girlfriend could plug into the LH Labs' headphone out for simultaneous listening. Not a bad set-up.


----------



## zachawry

willsw said:


> I'm pretty sure that if Zach at ZMF or MrSpeakers has their MicroZOTL2s on the table at meets or shows, they hook them up to Yggys, though it's usually people write impressions about the headphones they're listening to in these situations, when they're sitting at a headphone vendor's table. @zach915m might have an opinion on the Yggy as a DAC pairing.


 
  
 Does MrSpeakers have the MZ2 at shows as well? That's good to hear (literally, ha ha). I hope more major players start using the MZ2 in high-profile situations; I think it's got way too low of a profile for its quality.


----------



## zach915m

The ZOTL and YGGY are fantastic together.  The ZOTL is in the perfect sweet spot of warm/neutral to match with the Yggy for just enough musicality and tons of air and detail, you won't be disappointed.  Yggy is a very neutral and detail machine so if that's what you're after it;s a good way to go.  The other end is the Metrum Musette which Urban HiFi sells and for a musical yet still precise dac I don't think it can be beat for the price as well.
  
 Also worth looking at even though it's Delta Sigma would be the Audio GD Sabre Dac's, Kingwa does an excellent job finding a sweet spot with those chips.


willsw said:


> I'm pretty sure that if Zach at ZMF or MrSpeakers has their MicroZOTL2s on the table at meets or shows, they hook them up to Yggys, though it's usually people write impressions about the headphones they're listening to in these situations, when they're sitting at a headphone vendor's table. @zach915m might have an opinion on the Yggy as a DAC pairing.


----------



## hrq12345

zachawry said:


> I would like to know if anyone has tried the Yggy with the MZ2. I don't have the money yet, but I'm thinking about it.
> 
> Right now I'm using a Hugo, which sounds fabulous, but I'm highly curious about the Yggy because I hear it just beats the Hugo for detail, and I am an unreconstructed detail freak.


 
 I'm using this combo. Simply fantastic! I also heard the same combo during Canjam but that yggy seemed not in its best status. (Yggy needs 5 days running to achieve its best if turned out once)


----------



## WNBC

When it comes to DACs my motto has always been, "Love the One You're With".  That doesn't mean I don't try different DACs out of curiosity, but in general I like most of them.  However, when it comes to amps and headphones there are clear winners in my mind.  I recall a thread in which someone tested many high-end DACs, but didn't find that much difference among them.  Of course, not a scientific test, but good enough to know whether one particular DAC is going to stick out in one's mind.  As USB implementation has gotten better, there are a lot of good choices out there for the budget-minded individual.  I stopped buying DACs costing over $1K a while ago, but now that I am enjoying the MZ2, I should think about trying new things within reason.  Whether I buy anything is hard to say as I'm enjoying the Mojo at the moment.  But reading about the Mussette or Yggy or iDSD Pro does get the mind a thinkin'.  Seems the Yggy is a fav among many, but it is also probably more than I've spent on any given, single piece of audio equipment.  Lets not talk about collective costs over the past 6 years .  Work travel, kids, etc. doesn't really allow me to go to these infrequent weekend meets in my state.  Maybe one of these years I'll go to a big audio show to hear different DACs.  Unless the DAC is the FOTM, it is a bit more riskier buying new and selling used.  I am not the type to return items to vendors.  I research it, buy it, live with my choice, and then sell.  Head-fi anthem I suppose.  
  
 You guys think a DAC will have a significant impact on what I am getting out of the MZ2?   If had to come up with some ranking (fair or unfair) of my past DACs it would like Mojo >/= iFi iDSD >/= Ciunas > vanilla Geek Pulse >/= W4S DAC-2 >/= Anedio D2 > Fiio X5 > Bifrost > Dragonfly.  Why I would call rankings unfair is because I never had the same amps and headphones to compare against each DAC.  I'm inclined to sit back and enjoy the Mojo + MZ2, but if some of you have strong convictions about DACs I'd be interested in hearing them.  
  
 I am also at the point where I have a good feeling for the stock tubes and will eventually try new tubes for the fun of it.  I am a big fan of the MZ2 + HD800S pairing, but the MZ2 + GH-1 doesn't quite reach the same level of satisfaction.  I like the GH-1 with solid state pairings.  Maybe tubes will help out with the top end of the GH-1 being too shrill for me.  The top end of the HD800S is perfect for me on the MZ2.


----------



## sheldaze

I too love the Mojo into MicroZOTL2.
  
 I am afraid to, but will be trying to move to my more standard Gungnir Multibit (eventually), and trying the Musette (hopefully at a meet this Saturday) and Ayre Codex (eventually). But that's just me, loving to also listen to a lot of different options. I still am absolutely floored and in love with the Mojo into MicroZOTL2.


----------



## drbluenewmexico

sheldaze said:


> I too love the Mojo into MicroZOTL2.
> 
> I am afraid to, but will be trying to move to my more standard Gungnir Multibit (eventually), and trying the Musette (hopefully at a meet this Saturday) and Ayre Codex (eventually). But that's just me, loving to also listen to a lot of different options. I still am absolutely floored and in love with the Mojo into MicroZOTL2.


 

 I had a Mojo on tour courtesy of Todd Green at the Vinyl Junkie site and loved it with my MicroZotl2 amp/preamp as a source.  highly recommended.
 not quite at the level of the Mojo-Audio Mystique 2500$ DAC but close enough to where i forgot which one i had in the system at times. nicely done Chord!


----------



## jamato8

I find the Mojo a little warmer compared to the Hugo and the bass of the Hugo to be a more solid foundation type, quicker sounding, to me. The Mojo might be in some ways, more musical but at the same time the Hugo has a more clean presentation of the digits it gets fed.


----------



## defbear

First Set


----------



## willsw

defbear said:


> First Set


 
  
 I'm jealous!
  
  
 Also, because no one else has mentioned it, I thought I'd bring attention to our reviewer par excellence, the good DrJazz, and his recently published review of the MicroZOTL2 at headphone.guru.


----------



## doctorjazz

I'm not supposed to mention it, I'm told...(but I can put it in my profile  )



defbear said:


> First Set




Nice, enjoy!


----------



## defbear

willsw said:


> I'm jealous!
> 
> 
> Also, because no one else has mentioned it, I thought I'd bring attention to our reviewer par excellence, the good DrJazz, and his recently published review of the MicroZOTL2 at headphone.guru.


Ok Will, not to gloat but perhaps you should be jealous. I know you heard this set with the MZL. My goodness these really are a match for the microZOTL2. I could sell the family home and move to the country with this setup! I know they had some burn in at Axpona 2016 but these are Rightious with the MZL. They have Everything right out of the case. I will continue at the ZMF thread. Damn! Malloy!


----------



## zachawry

doctorjazz said:


> I'm not supposed to mention it, I'm told...(but I can put it in my profile
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Good review!
  
 But, you say that it has a "3.5 mm headphone jack," which is 1/8".


----------



## doctorjazz

Thanks...but you're right, my bad, have to figure out how to correct it in the fakakta on line program we use, thanks.


----------



## Wildcatsare1

doctorjazz said:


> Thanks...but you're right, my bad, have to figure out how to correct it in the fakakta ween program we use, thanks.




Just ask Frank for some help...


----------



## jamato8

zachawry said:


> Good review!
> 
> But, you say that it has a "3.5 mm headphone jack," which is 1/8".


 

 This is with an adapter in place. :^)


----------



## doctorjazz

jamato8 said:


> zachawry said:
> 
> 
> > Good review!
> ...


----------



## rocoa

Hello,
  
 I receive the microZOTL 2.0 DELUXE today.
 I've pluged it in a  old CD player used only to burn in and it will be there some days before to make a critical listening.
  

  
 I'm going to replace the tubes for a 6SN7 RCA Red Base an try it because I like so much these tubes. I've purchased a Psvane 12AT7 too because they are my favourites with the EATs.
 I must replace the fuse an put a Furutech, as I've done in all my equipment.
 After two weeks it will be placed in the rack and plugged to the Berkeley DAC to try some headphones.
 I am sure that it will work well but I'm intrigued with low impedance headphones and Audeze
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## willsw

I am very impressed with your equipment preparation procedure!

Before any confusion arises, the "MicroZOTL2 Deluxe" is the official name for the amp with the linear power supply, and the "MicroZOTL2" refers, officially, to the amp with the switching supply, as the original MicroZOTL used a similar switching supply. Urban HiFi is the only dealer that sells the non-deluxe MicroZOTL2, and other dealers may or may not use the deluxe term.


----------



## nephilim

Excellent, rocoa! Congrats on the new amp. Looking forward to hearing your impressions with the Audeze.


----------



## doctorjazz

willsw said:


> I am very impressed with your equipment preparation procedure!
> 
> Before any confusion arises, the "MicroZOTL2 Deluxe" is the official name for the amp with the linear power supply, and the "MicroZOTL2" refers, officially, to the amp with the switching supply, as the original MicroZOTL used a similar switching supply. Urban HiFi is the only dealer that sells the non-deluxe MicroZOTL2, and other dealers may or may not use the deluxe term.




That explains that, I was wondering...


----------



## willsw

doctorjazz said:


> That explains that, I was wondering...


 
  
 If any sort of MicroZOTL comes out with significant component changes, we'll be sure to shout about it clearly and in all the channels we can. And we'll probably have to name it something readily distinguishable from the MicroZOTL2, like the SUPERDUPERZOTLAMP or BESTAMPZOTLHEADPHONEAMPITSBEST or something subtle like that. 
  
 Also, I hope your amp is sounding OK.


----------



## doctorjazz

Thanks, I had a scare, major distortion, thought it was coming from the ZOTL, maybe tubes dying or something, but on further mucking around, turned out to be some digital mayhem my Geek Out Special Edition was causing, which improved with a very high tech solution (I disconnected and then reconnected it). Sounding copasetic now...


----------



## defbear

willsw said:


> I am very impressed with your equipment preparation procedure!
> 
> Before any confusion arises, the "MicroZOTL2 Deluxe" is the official name for the amp with the linear power supply, and the "MicroZOTL2" refers, officially, to the amp with the switching supply, as the original MicroZOTL used a similar switching supply. Urban HiFi is the only dealer that sells the non-deluxe MicroZOTL2, and other dealers may or may not use the deluxe term.


Kin I have a badge what says Deluxe? HaHaHa. Ok kidding. My 2 cents is not to get too much into Marketing and multiple models. Cavalli lost me when they tried 'Golden Tickets' and Get yours now before thier gone ploy. Deluxe either says 'The other one is not worth owning' or cheep marketing ploy. Far better bundle the better power supply at a discount and call it the Deluxe ....hey wait a minute. Perhaps it's unavoidable. One DAC company I was looking at had 'Buy the DAC', then buy the DAC with DSD add $100. Last buy the DAC with an upgraded parts board. Only $1050.00. It was at that point I,clicked off. 
If LTA offers an upgraded parts board, I want one. But such an option,might hurt sales. The DAC company should have just sold the damn DAC without all the bitty steps. Perhaps LTA might drop the old power supply (after stock runs out) and just sell the amp. I freekin love mine.


----------



## Audio Addict

willsw said:


> If any sort of MicroZOTL comes out with significant component changes, we'll be sure to shout about it clearly and in all the channels we can. And we'll probably have to name it something readily distinguishable from the MicroZOTL2, like the SUPERDUPERZOTLAMP or BESTAMPZOTLHEADPHONEAMPITSBEST or something subtle like that.
> 
> Also, I hope your amp is sounding OK.


 
  
 When are you starting to take orders for the SUPERDUPERZOTLAMP and the BESTAMPZOTLHEADPHONEAMPITSBEST?


----------



## vapman

When you plug in headphones, does it cut off the line out signal? I plan on using this both with my power amp and headphones...


----------



## willsw

vapman said:


> When you plug in headphones, does it cut off the line out signal? I plan on using this both with my power amp and headphones...


 
  
 It does not. Currently, all of the outputs are linked, so you would want to turn off your power amp when using headphones in order to not split the power output between them.
  
 A switch to choose between headphone and preamp/speaker outputs has been on the to-do list for a long time but involves changes to the faceplate (extra hole, new paintjob) and an extra hole in the chassis and in terms of things that add a bit to the cost without changing price it has been less prioritized. Now that more owners of the MicroZOTL2 are expressing a desire for the option, it will get more attention, but we are limited by order quantities and needing, economically, to get through what we have before getting a new version.


----------



## vapman

It's not a huge deal, I always turn the volume down before shutting the power amp off just to be safe. Thanks for clarifying!


----------



## jamato8

I like the design of the new PS. For all that it does, it also runs pretty cool, which means a long life for the capacitors and other components.


----------



## willsw

For anyone going to T.H.E. Show Newport, it is now confirmed that you can see the MicroZOTL2 in action as a preamp in room 208, doing preamplification for a ZOTL40 power amp, though we may also have a ZOTL10 to switch out for the curious. We'll be with Vapor Audio speakers and a Resonessence DAC, and some fancy cables and room treatments and a rack. We'll also have a booth in the booth area, for plugging headphones in, with Metrum and Mojo Audio R-2R DACs.


----------



## Hifi01170

can anybody let me know the power polarity?
  
 like *Power Polarity: inner"+"   external"-" ?*


----------



## dpump

Yes. Inner is +, outer is -.


----------



## drbluenewmexico

Review of six power supplies with the MicroZOTL2 as they effect SQ and related listening dimensions, just completed:
  
 FEED ME says microZOTL2
  
 FEED ME says microZOTL2 to Power Supplies and Well Fed, he SINGS like a Champion…..
  
 Late one night while cruising the internet I had come across the patent for the ZOTL circuit.  Of course that didn’t matter since the original microZOTL headphone amps were impossible to find used…no one wanted to part with theirs. It was a legend on head-fi.org, like a ghost that some had seen but few actually experienced or believed in. In 1994 I wrote designer David Berning and begged him to make me one, which fortunately he did. My blue cased glass walled microZOTL headphone amp served me well for years (and still does) but few headphone seekers had ever heard one. 
  
 Then a couple of years ago I wrote David Berning another  note, that with the resurgence of headphones, he should resume manufacturing of the original microZOTL headphone amplifier.
 Recently Mr. Berning partnered with Mark Schneider of Linear Tube Audio to remanufacture and distribute a new version of the microZOTL. They kept the original ZOTL circuits intact and added a new external 12-volt power supply. They sent me a prototype to review. 
  
 Note: the original microZOTL had a switch to change to and external 12-volt battery or power supply, but hardly anyone was using that option. (although in a snarky post, Mr Berning told a great story about how you could carry it around in a backpack with a big battery and use it
 to pick up girls in the park with reference level portable sound..ha…)
  
 The new ZOTL had upgraded Russian tubes, no direct AC input, but otherwise was the same signature sound as the original. Sadly the first one came smashed in a crushed box with destroyed packing, but Mark upgraded his packing materials and quickly replaced it with a second one that was shipped perfectly safe. I plugged it in and didn't leave my headphone desk for days, listening to glorious microZOTL2 clarity through Tidal and my Mojo Audio Mystique DAC.  I wrote a review of it on Head-fi.org which began “send in food, I'm not getting up anytime soon.” This was actually true.
  
 Remember how blown away I was with the stock microZOTL2 as you read my impressions of power supply upgrades.   
  
 Meanwhile, the new microZOTL2 gradually become known to tube amp seekers, and rapidly became a hot topic on the net. DIY tube rollers sought to further juice up the amazing performance of the new microZOTL2.
  
 Enter Ben Zwickel from Mojo Audio,  a small audio engineering company in Albuquerque New Mexico, where I live.  Ben heard my microZOTL set up, was totally blown away by it. He commented that it was as if he’d never heard his Sennheiser HD650s before It was the best headphone amp he’d ever heard (and he built quite a few). 
  
 Ben suggested I try one his 12-volt power supplies, on my microZOTL2 instead of the power supply it came with.  I quickly agreed to the experiment. He brought over an old used Joule v1 a customer had recently traded in. As good as the new version of the microZOTL2 was with the shipped power supply, the improvement with Ben’s Joule v1 was stunning. At that time, Ben was up to a Joule v5 in his tech development, but he just loaned me this old used unit with obsolete technology just to try it out.
  
 Powering the microZOTL2 with an old Joule v1 was a serious upgrade….something like a 30% improvement in resolution.  Improved PRAT, texture, soundstage, you name it. So when Ben recently offered me to do a fairly complete test of the power supplies in the newer Joule line with my microZOTL2, I quickly agreed.
  
 By now Ben had his own microZOTL2 amp and was loving it, and using it with his newly designed Illuminati prototype power supply to hear the development of other products in his laboratory line up as reference. How far could the power supply upgrade the microZOTL2?  
  
 We would soon find out…
  
 Ben recently completed a prototype of a new power supply called Illuminati that will not only power a 12-volt microZOTL2, but also the 24-volt ZOTL10 amplifier. The Illuminati is a monster. I’m told the chassis will be roughly the size and shape of a loaf of bread and weigh in at about 50% more than the Joule v5. This is due to the addition of a HUGE input choke that Ben tells me not only improves performance, but cuts the crest-factor and stress on all other components in the power supply in half. Apparently the Illuminati is a fusion of a new ultralow-noise and ultrahigh-dynamic Belleson SPRU regulator (named ironically after Ben’s cat Rufus), and what Ben likes to call “big-ass old-school heavy iron.” 
  
 When designing the Illuminati Ben tells me his team went back to the drawing board so to speak on everything from the new SPRU Belleson regulator to a unique compact and highly braced/structured chassis needed to support the heavy iron. The Illuminati incorporates everything Ben’s always wanted to put into a cost-is-no-object power supply. All I can say is it is audiophile nirvana. 
  
 In addition to all the sonic improvements the Illuminati has several new protection circuits, including auto-reset Thermistors replacing fuses on the AC input and an optocoupler triggered over-current protection circuit at the final stage. Apparently the optocoupler over-current protection is so sensitive that the surge when the microZOTL2’s on button is pressed will trip it turning the dim blue “on” light bright red. Ben told me to just turn on the power switch on the microZOTL2 before turning on the power switch to the Illuminati. Aside from that, the new over-current protection wasn’t an issue.
  
 TEST RESULTS:  READ AT YOUR OWN PERIL…
  
 For testing, I had the original power supply which came with my prototype microZOTL2, the new upgrade ZOTL LPS linear power supply that Mark Schneider is now selling as a $650 upgrade option (discounted for new microZOTL2 purchasers). From Mojo Audio I had my personal Joule v1 and Joule v2, and Ben loaned me a demo Joule v5 and a prototype Illuminati.   The ZOTL power supplies were connected by a stock 12” cable.  The Mojo Audio power supplies were connected to the microZOTL2 by a DC power cable that Ben developed using cryogenically treated Kimber Kable VariStrand wire and a silver plated Neutrik 4-pin XLR that mates with any Mojo Audio PSU since the Joule v2 (apparently the output connector on my Joule v1 had been updated).
  
 I used the stock tube configurations from Mark Schneider ships with his microZOTL2..no tube rolling…new variations will have to wait  for a further review (even though Ben brought over a box of his favorite NOS tubes to try out). All testing was done through my favorite Fostex Massdrop X00 Mahogony headphones which have been used for about 3000 hours and are quite seasoned.
 I plugged in the prototype Illuminati power supply (est. $1,500 retail) as soon as Ben brought it over, and listened to it for about a week before I started the series of tests on the whole chain of models.  I hated to disconnect it to go back down the line, because I got used the fluid fast, and musical sound it caused the microZOTL2 to reveal. But I had to to be sure it was really that good, so I went back down to the original switch-mode power supply that came with with my prototype microZOTL2 and dutifully went up the line, using the same headphones and tracks from Tidal for each power supply. The Power came through a PS Audio Duet power conditioner first, and then top of the line Audioquest power cable into the power supplies, same feed for all the tests.
  
 Technical details how the different Mojo Audio Joule power supplies differ from each other are as follows:
  
 Joule v1: LT1083 IC regulator, Jensen 4-pole capacitors, modest AC input filtering.
 Joule v2: LT1083 IC regulator, organic polymer capacitors, intensive AC input filtering. 
 Joule v3: Same as v2, but with better chassis and new grounding schema.
 Joule v4: Same as v3, but with original Belleson SPHP ultralow-noise regulator.
 Joule v5: Similar to v4, but with output protection circuit and optional dual regulated output.
 Illuminati: The only similarity to Joule v5 are the capacitors and the 4-pin XLR output. 
  
 RESULTS: there was a clear path to better sound as I went up the quality chain of power supplies for the microZOTL2. The microZOTL2 clearly said: “FEED ME and I WILL DELIVER BETTER , MORE ANALOGUE SOUNDING AUDIO.” Moreover, when I got to the Joule 5, there was no going back, the previous models and original power supplies were like low fidelity options comparatively. The Joule v5 was eminently MUSICAL and the Illuminati “worth starving for.”
  
 Heres my notes as I progressed up the power supply line up using Tidal, playing series of well recorded songs by Randall Bramblett (blues), Dave Stringer (sacred chanting), Bob Marley, etc
 HERE we go:
  
 Stock microZOTL2 switch-mode power supply (original):
  
 The microZOTL2 sounds good  musical, but dynamics are now sound kind of flat to me.  Kind of sounds like a table radio after taking Illuminati out of the system. Bass is there but limited, no impact, soundstage narrow. Tones lack decay, not musically engaging, music sounds digital.
  
 New upgraded  ZOTL LPS linear power supply:
  
 Interestingly enough, Ben tells me the ZOTL LPS uses a similar regulator and similar organic polymer capacitors to his Joule v2 and v3. He also told me several modern linear power supplies from companies like HD Plex and YLS use a similar circuit and IC chip regulator to the new ZOTL LPS. Better PRAT, voices clearer, more emotion in songs.  bass slightly better, more impact. slightly more dynamics. synths have better bite, slightly more involving, more details in music, beginning to smile again….but something still lacking…
  
 Joule v1 :
  
 Music more liquid now, bass announces its presence, can hear it more clearly but still not feel it much, layering improved.  The dimensions and rightness, musicality improved, still not toe tapping or dancing in my chair however….lyrics are clearer, emotional communication of songs improving….better resolution…im getting happier…
  
 Joule v2:   
  
 Musicality improving considerably, layering much better, PRAT clearly better, more details, tones purer, more analogue sounding, velvety, soundstage wider and deeper, analogue like sound replacing digital sound, toe tapping begins, blues really rocks, I yell out ‘YEAH” to favorite passages in songs….dynamics improve, begin to be exciting , I'm beginning to smile…I remember why i got into this hobby in the first place, wallet be damned…
  
 Joule 5:  WOW! WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN ALL MY ZOTL LIFE?  Musically tremendously better, music coming alive. Literally, sounds like performers are in my head, or I am at live concert. PRAT EXCELLENT, dynamics tremendous, sacred music sounds sacred, JOY comes through the music immersive…I must do this upgrade (never heard the ZOTL sound like this before). The ZOTL is UNLEASHED….like its taking drugs…or having enlightenment experience….Ben's never getting this back…..
  
 And then back to the Illuminati:
  
 WOWWWWW.  I THOUGHT THE JOULE v5 was good, but this much more subtle and refined.  Drums are coming ALIVE - I play African  drums so I know what live drums sound like and this was live sounding. Synths BUZZZZ through your head like ripsaws, voices are HOLOGRAPHIC.  Less digital congestion, more space in the silence between notes, the music is faster, at the speed of sound, soundstage expanded where can I pawn some stuff to afford one of these?????? Wait, new it costs only 27% MORE than the Joule v5 (with optional face plate)…WHO CARES…
  
 It cant get any better than this, my head is hitting on audio heaven….I'm hearing into the music, into the intent of the performer the communication of the song writer and performer…….like I used to get from vinyl/Apogee Diva like performance through massive Krell class A reference gear in my living room………….wait, its still the very same microZOTL2 headphone amplifier…
  
 Well, I decided I can live with a Joule v5 performance till my winning lottery ticket arrives or my cat’s ship comes in. Apparently Ben is about to discontinue the Joule v5 and he has deals on his demos and used trade ins. But in the meantime, if you can afford it, go for the gold with new Illuminati power supply for your microZOTL2. The Joule 5 is a worthy companion in the meantime that you can be happy with, and enjoy true high fidelity heaven with the
 microZOTL2 for headphones.  And it also doubles as a preamp—it feeds my desktop near field Fostex subbed monitor system with aplomb.
  
 EXCITING CONCLUSION and the moral of the story:
  
 Moral of the story; the ZOTL demands that you feed it well.  Mojo Audio has the Mojo it desires. how much Mojo you can afford and need to feel musically satisfied is up to you. There is serious science and engineering behind the upgrades in the Joule lineup they look almost the same, but they are not. Contact Ben at info@mojo-audio.com for more technical details on the different upgrade options. Since Mojo takes trade ins from customers they always seem to have some older used Joule power supply they’re selling on Audiogon or eBay.
  
 Thanks to Ben Zwickel from Mojo Audio for the loan of these monster power supplies and to Mark Schneider for re-creating the microZOTL2, and David Berning for breathing life into it again. 
  
 Next: do upgraded Tubes make the microZOTL2 smile even more?  We shall see…and hear…later on….back to listening now…..


----------



## doctorjazz

Upgrade-it is strikes again...
Will have to try this out myself.


----------



## drbluenewmexico

doctorjazz said:


> Upgrade-it is strikes again...
> Will have to try this out myself.


 

 hold on to your wallet if your EARS let you.
 i might pawn my cat if i can get into an Illuminati or
 don't get a Ferrari instead.....its that good!!!! however
 the Mojo Audio  JOULE V is probably good as an audio Porsche
 with the ZOTL2....Joe Bonamassa is somewhere between
 my ears and limbic system right now....and expanding...


----------



## vapman

There are not nearly enough reviews on this site by people who have extensive experience playing live music. It affects the believability of a review 100x for me personally at least.
  
 I am curious did the older model ZOTL just use an internal transformer or something?


----------



## doctorjazz

Does one have to PLAY live music to be a reliable source? I always thought going to HEAR live music also a way to appreciate what music sounds like. I also often find SOME (note the some for the generalization) musicians have so much of the sound inside their heads, they are not as concerned about the actual sound in space. 
How about playing guitar or piano for fun and friends at home? Qualify one to judge sound?
But, I'd agree that a musician who has an interest in sound as well is a great resource. 
My $0.02.


----------



## vapman

doctorjazz said:


> Does one have to PLAY live music to be a reliable source? I always thought going to HEAR live music also a way to appreciate what music sounds like.
> My $0.02.


 
 I agree 100%. It's just that people who play it hear the same stuff in all different environments. Even playing an acoustic instrument in your own home helps so much. I didn't mean to imply it wasn't good enough to hear live music. All the better if you still go to hear live music! That way the "true sound" stays fresh in your mind


----------



## doctorjazz

There was actually an interesting interview with Peter Wolf (J. Giles Band and solo career), where the interviewer, Robert Baird, expected to be pulling stuff out of Wolf, but would up being bombarded with questions about the Stereophile staff, Wolf was an long time reader and audiophile and was very curious about the writers he'd been following in the magazine. I thought it was pretty cool...

http://www.stereophile.com/content/peter-wolf-hard-drivin-man#P48lKhWir2thAPwB.97


----------



## zach915m

Some LTA Omni's getting assembled today, saucy.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Almost ready for ZOTL action.


----------



## doctorjazz

zach915m said:


> Some LTA Omni's getting assembled today, saucy.  h34r: Almost ready for ZOTL action.




I highly recommend this combo!


----------



## bazelio

hifi01170 said:


> can anybody let me know the power polarity?
> 
> like *Power Polarity: inner"+"   external"-" ?*


 
  
 From the stock SMPS and umbilical cord connector...


----------



## defbear

doctorjazz said:


> I highly recommend this combo!


Yey Verily Yey


----------



## vapman

doctorjazz said:


> There was actually an interesting interview with Peter Wolf (J. Giles Band and solo career), where the interviewer, Robert Baird, expected to be pulling stuff out of Wolf, but would up being bombarded with questions about the Stereophile staff, Wolf was an long time reader and audiophile and was very curious about the writers he'd been following in the magazine. I thought it was pretty cool...
> 
> http://www.stereophile.com/content/peter-wolf-hard-drivin-man#P48lKhWir2thAPwB.97


 

 This was a great read, thanks for the link




 I'm not on team ZOTL yet but will be soon.


----------



## jamato8

Interesting comparison/review above on the different power supplies that can be used with the MZ2. 
  
 I have the Mojo V5 and enjoy using and it is a good step up from the stock supply of the MZ2. For me though I find that the LPS improves on some areas of the V5. I get a small amount of increased dynamics, layering and transparency to the sound. This surprised me, knowing what goes into the V5 and that top of the line components are used but it is what I hear using a number of different TOTL headphones. My source may be DSD to DoP to the Chord Hugo or hi resolution and lossless of other types using Twau cable on headphones and for IC. I find the LPS to be an exception deal. 
  
 On the MZ2 this is with 7062 and round plate 6F8G tubes or stock.


----------



## WNBC

Still learning more and more about this amp.  I always thought full power from source into MicroZOTL is the best way to go.  For the HD800S that's how I like it.  For my Grados, I need to reduce the 3V output from the Mojo to about 2V and I'm enjoying them a lot more with this amp.  I read about this in the Mojo thread and figured I'd give it a shot.  Goes to show that there are lots of way to tweak performance and I haven't even started with tubes or cables yet.  I'm using Blue Jean Cables for my interconnects.
  
 That ZMF headphone looks awesome.  I'll need another headphone stand in order to justify getting one 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## drbluenewmexico

vapman said:


> There are not nearly enough reviews on this site by people who have extensive experience playing live music. It affects the believability of a review 100x for me personally at least.
> 
> I am curious did the older model ZOTL just use an internal transformer or something?


 

 true dat. live music is a good reference for what are goals are in headphone listening for me.
 my buddies who are professional musicians really appreciate my headphone set ups when they
 visit me, and can hear the difference immediately from ordinary headphone gear. Neal Stone,who
 played with Pat Methany extensively and lives down my block always loves to hear the latest
 upgrades and can hear them immediately at the highest level of perception. 
  
 the first microZOTL was plugged directly into the wall and benefited from upgraded power cables a lot.
 but it also had a switch to let it play off a 12 volt source, so it must have an internal transformer.
 i never tried it on 12 volts, but now i use as Joule 2 from Mojo Audio to run it and it sounds fabulous.
 not as good as a Joule 5 on the new version ZOTL2 however, which is somewhat  smoother and more dynamic
 since it has upgraded Russian, tubes, but still the same Sound signature, since its the same circuits.
 The improvement with the prototype Illuminati power supply from Mojo Audio is scary good though....but that
 one is more expensive than the ZOTL 2 itself....


----------



## doctorjazz

wnbc said:


> Still learning more and more about this amp.  I always thought full power from source into MicroZOTL is the best way to go.  For the HD800S that's how I like it.  For my Grados, I need to reduce the 3V output from the Mojo to about 2V and I'm enjoying them a lot more with this amp.  I read about this in the Mojo thread and figured I'd give it a shot.  Goes to show that there are lots of way to tweak performance and I haven't even started with tubes or cables yet.  I'm using Blue Jean Cables for my interconnects.
> 
> That ZMF headphone looks awesome.  I'll need another headphone stand in order to justify getting one  .




That's been my problem...I bought to many stands, now I have to get headphones to keep them busy...


----------



## MojoAudio

Hi everyone,
  
 Benjamin from Mojo Audio posting on Head-Fi for the first time (seriously).
  
 So here's my ZOTL story...
  
*drbluenewmexico *is a local OCD audiophile, music lover, and music promoter - there's nothing in ABQ like a Dr. Blue party with live music!
  
 The only good thing I got custody of when me and my ex broke up was Dr. Blue (long story, but he smiled when he read that).
  
 I've never met anyone with more of a "collection" of headphones and headphone amps than Dr. Blue. He's got a vintage pair of Apogee Diva speakers and a pair of boat anchor class A Krell amps in his living room, but all he wants to listen to are his many world class headphones. When I first met him I rolled my eyes and shook my head.
  
 I'm not sure if it was before or after he got his "after production" microZOTL1 from David Berning that he sent me a link to all this tech stuff on the ZOTL circuit, but I've been an EE and audiophile DIY hobbyist for decades, and this was one of the first ORIGINAL circuits I'd ever seen.
  
 I had to hear that 
  
 Now historically I've owned many of the whose who of headphones, but due to comfort and no need, I always gravitated toward speakers. I actually owned a computer embroidery and uniform business for over a decade and made the hats, shirts, and jackets for the original HeadRoom team (who have since gone solo). They would send me anything I wanted to audition (OK...they wouldn't send me an Orpheus) and give me a deal on anything I wanted to barter for the wearable HeadRoom swag my company manufactured.
  
 Some of the headphones I've owned (think of Goldie Locks and the Three Bears):
  
 Stax SR-3 (no bass)
 Grado GS100 (too hard)
 Sennheiser HD600 (too soft...too much bass)
 AKG K1000 (too uncomfortable)
 Denon D2000 (close but no cigar)
 Audeze LCD-2 (sounded like computers playing flawless music)
 MrSpeakers Ether and Ether C (very, very close, but no cigar)
 Sennheiser HD800 (too close...please back off a bit)
  
 And many, many, more portable and less prestigious headphones.
  
 So the first time I heard Dr. Blue's microZOTL1 I was floored. Keeping in mind that over the years I'd borrowed the best HeadRoom had to offer and built a half a dozen of my own DIY headphone amps. Dr. Blue had a well worn set of HD650s and I can't remember Sennheisers ever sounding so good. I seriously considered getting one, but I'd never gotten that much into headphones. They were always something to listen to when my lady wanted to sleep or for when I was on the road...certainly not my first choice.
  
 Dr. Blue told the story of my bringing over an old used PSU for him to hear. After that it seemed like years went by with me visiting Dr. Blue and hearing his latest favorite headphones on his microZOTL1 (I've even bought some of his 2nd favorite headphones from him).
  
 Then all of a sudden he's got this new microZOTL2 to audition - at the time I didn't realize what was going on between Dr. Blue, Mark, and David.
  
 OK...it was black...I liked the look of his original blue metal and glass one better...sort of sounded like the original...I wondered what it would sound like with a decent PSU?
  
 I dropped off an old Joule v1, listened for a bit, Dr. Blue loved the sound, and I never thought much of it after that. Why would I consider such an expensive headphone amp when I had such a good loudspeaker system?
  
 A few months went by and Mark gave me a call about us potentially exhibiting together...that was the beginning of the end 
  
 Once I heard the microZOTL2 Mark sent me with my latest and greatest PSU and my digital source and I couldn't listen to my custom Maggies anymore.
  
 That was it.
  
 Every time I tried to listen to my loudspeaker system all I would hear would be the limitations of physics and the flaws in the room.
  
 It didn't take long before my uncompromising reference system was my microZOTL2 - no loudspeaker system could compare.
  
 In order to do my R&D I needed something as accurate as the microZOTL2 powered by a proper PSU and one of the better dynamic headphones (I've been through quite a few this year).
  
 How else could I know what my DAC and music server prototypes actually sounded like?
  
 Fast forward and my company has been exhibiting with Linear Tube Audio (ZOTL) at Can Jams and audiophile shows for over a year now.
  
 You could not believe that a ZOTL40 drives my "acoustic sponge" Maggies almost as hard as my 400wpc hybrid Counterpoint SA-220 amp that I've highly customized. 
  
 And then my story took a turn...
  
 A few weeks ago there was a Head-Fi meetup (more like a swap meet) and I heard Stax Omega SR-007 Mk1s for the first time played on a custom DIY direct-drive electrostatic amp (thanks Jim) with my prototype digital source...it took less than 30 seconds before I knew I had to have it (you all know what I mean).
  
 So Dr. Blue had 20+ year old Stax Lambda headphones and a T1 amp he's been trying to barter with me for years that I finally snagged up (he prefers the more visceral sound of the microZOTL2). I've been restoring and upgrading the T1 amp for weeks (now better than new) and just bartered a set of Stax SR-007 Mk1s from Jim from the Head-Fi swap meet...er...meet up (Jim just bought a set of SR-007 Mk2s).
  
 So Allen has my HD800s...Tony wants my Stax Lambda Pros that I got from Dr. Blue...Tony got Jim's half done Stax electrostatic amp kit...and those are just the transactions I was involved in. Not to mention that Tony, Jim, and I have meet for the past two weeks since the Head-Fi meet up to discuss the ultimate electrostatic headphone amp circuit?
  
 This is what happened when the Santa Fe Audio Society meet the Albuquerque Head-Fi group (LOL!).
  
 So last week I'm talking to Mark from ZOTL about our room at the upcoming RMAF and I reluctantly let slip that I switched to Stax ear speakers. Mark told me that he's been talking to David about a small board that converts the ZOTL10 into an electrostatic headphone amp (God loves me).
  
 I've actually been bugging Mark to loan me a ZOTL10 to try in my bedroom...how cool would that be that it could drive my new/used Stax Omegas too 
  
 Can you only imagine the ZOTL10 electrostatic amp powered by my new Illuminati PSU driving one of Stax best ears speakers?!?!?!?
  
 Well I can 
  
 Mark is not sure if or when he's going to make a prototype electrostatic headphone amp.
  
 Of course I told him where to send his first prototype 
  
 Please feel free to disturb Mark at all hours of the day and night in regards to prototyping an electrostatic headphone amp.
  
 If he starts now we may have it in time for RMAF in October 
  
 Oh...and don't mention to Mark that I told you about the ZOTL electrostatic headphone amp...it's supposed to be a secret


----------



## doctorjazz

Welcome aboard, Ben! Keep us posted on anything you come up with or impressions when you can. The Stax have been on my radar for a while...I own a pair of Koss ESP-950's, which I like (need to send them back to Koss, one side currently not working), do some things really well, really fast. These are said to be the gateway drug to Stax.


----------



## MojoAudio

If anyone has heard the Stax Omegas and felt they were just OK, that is because they never heard them with a source and/or amp worthy of them.
  
 Similarly I hated HD800s for years until I heard them on a proper system - they always sounded like crap at the shows - now they're one of my favorite dynamic headphones.
  
 Less than 20% of the amps I've seen at shows can properly drive the HD800s.
  
 I had no idea what the HD600s and HD650s could sound like until I heard them on a ZOTL and they are much easier to drive than the HD800s.
  
 Of course you can drive a set of Ether Cs on just about anything and they would sound good (they just sound better on a ZOTL).


----------



## zachawry

wnbc said:


> Still learning more and more about this amp.  I always thought full power from source into MicroZOTL is the best way to go.  For the HD800S that's how I like it.  For my Grados, I need to reduce the 3V output from the Mojo to about 2V and I'm enjoying them a lot more with this amp.  I read about this in the Mojo thread and figured I'd give it a shot.  Goes to show that there are lots of way to tweak performance and I haven't even started with tubes or cables yet.  I'm using Blue Jean Cables for my interconnects.
> 
> That ZMF headphone looks awesome.  I'll need another headphone stand in order to justify getting one
> 
> ...


 
  
 I have a Hugo (similar to Mojo), and I find that full power out is WAY too hot. I turn it down about mid-way (green-blue). Let the amp do the heavy lifting. 
  
 FWIW....


----------



## MojoAudio

Allen brought a pair of Beyerdynamic T1s that I played on my personal ZOTL system at that recent Head-Fi (swap) meet up.
  
 Not as revealing as any of the HD800s (we had a HD800 upgrade cable blind test and Allen's $60 DIY cable won).
  
 But personally I felt they were the perfect match for anyone that loves acoustic music and a slightly distant perspective.
  
 They were literally my second favorite headphone on my ZOTL system from the (swap) meet up next to my new Stax Omega's. 
  
 I found the HD800s more revealing (even harsh with the stock ZOTL tubes), but the T1s had that balance between revealing and romantic that I could listen to for hours.
  
 If I recall, Allen told me these were "the older" T1s and the current production had a different tuning.
  
 Of course none of this is right or wrong.
  
 Dr. Blue likes bass heavy forward headphones that sound like you are front row at a rock concert (his modified Fostex).
  
 I like the sound of the Beyrdynamic T1s (middle of the floor concert hall).
  
 And Tony prefers the sound of the HD800s (front row concert hall).
  
 Depending on the tubes you choose and the headphones you choose the microZOTL2 can deliver it no matter your personal taste.
  
 This may sound melodramatic, but comparing all the other amps at the recent ABQ Head-Fi (swap) meet up to a properly powered microZOTL2 they all sounded vague, distant, and boring. 
  
 I know I sound like a shill, but Dr. Blue can tell you that about half way through last year my leather recliner was permanently moved from the back wall of my listening room between my highly modified Maggies to right in front of my audio rack and my microZOTL2 and rarely was my chair moved back to the rear wall of the room since.
  
 That says it all.
  
 PS: my microZOTL is also my preamp.


----------



## doctorjazz

I got a single ended cable to use the ZOTL as a preamp (amp and preamp run balanced), but haven't gotten around to using it yet (also mostly use my headphone setup with the ZOTL, my Krell KSA-150/Thiel 3.6 are quiet most of the time). One of these days, though, have to hear the preamp mode of the ZOTL, will get around to it at some point...


----------



## WNBC

Yeah, new one for me. All my past DACs were ~2V output. The crazy output of the Mojo probably has some use in other systems but the ZOTL seems happy with the traditional 2V. At least for potentially hot Grados and other headphones. 



zachawry said:


> I have a Hugo (similar to Mojo), and I find that full power out is WAY too hot. I turn it down about mid-way (green-blue). Let the amp do the heavy lifting.
> 
> FWIW....


----------



## zachawry

doctorjazz said:


> I got a single ended cable to use the ZOTL as a preamp (amp and preamp run balanced), but haven't gotten around to using it yet (also mostly use my headphone setup with the ZOTL, my Krell KSA-150/Thiel 3.6 are quiet most of the time). One of these days, though, have to hear the preamp mode of the ZOTL, will get around to it at some point...


 

 When I get home today, I'm going to hook up my Krell KAV 300i to the MZ2. If it sounds decent (and I expect it to!), I'm going to shove the Krell under my desk and get some really long speaker cables. That way everything (source, DAC, and MZ2) will be centered around my headphone listening (as is only right and natural!), but I can flip a switch and get speaker output when I want to as well.


----------



## zachawry

Here it is. My god these speakers have never sounded nearly as good!


----------



## nephilim

I was just pointed to an in-depth review of the mZOTL2 in the June issue of stereophile magazine, including measurements. I wonder if the measurement results would look different if a linear PSU had been used.


----------



## nephilim

mojoaudio said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> Benjamin from Mojo Audio posting on Head-Fi for the first time (seriously).
> 
> So here's my ZOTL story...


 
 Hello Ben,
  
 welcome to the thread and thanks for this interesting read! I wanted to ask if you are familiar with LTA's LPS and the SBooster LPS and how they compare with the Mojo PSUs.


----------



## MojoAudio

Hi Nephilim,
  
 The ZOTL LPS that Dr. Blue auditioned was one that Mark sent me. I burned it in 24/7 for over 100 hours before the recent Head-Fi (swap) meet up.
  
 Since the ZOTL LPS uses similar technology and similar parts to my Joule v1-v3 I wanted to know first hand what the sonic comparison was.
  
 Since Dr. Blue was the only one I knew personally that both owned a microZOTL2 and some of my earlier power supplies I thought it would be a good idea to get his opinion.
   
To be honest, I was a bit surprised that Dr. Blue preferred our earlier PSUs over the ZOTL LPS, but I wasn't surprised the sound of all of them was rather close.

  
 I was expecting what Dr. Blue wrote in regards to our latest Joule v5 and our prototype Illuminati - the technology is much different and much more advanced.
  
 Now the SBooster is a totally different animal. They are a bit vague in their descriptions, but it appears to be some type of hybrid design and not actually an LPS. I've never seen one in person or heard one but it sure looks like mid-fi mediocrity to me.
  
 The LPS I'm surprised has not hit big as a high-value upgrade for the microZOTL is the HD Plex. Once again, similar technology to my earlier power supplies and the ZOTL LPS.
  
 Two interesting options would be the YLS and the Uptown Audio LPSs. Once again, similar technology to the HD Plex and ZOTL LPS, but neither is an exceptional value like the HD Plex. The Uptown Audio is even choke loaded similar to our new Illuminati, but without the iron mass and ultralow-noise regulator.
  
 One that I would love to hear as actual competitive technology to our products would be a power supply by Paul Hynes - the man is a genius.
  
 As for current models of Mojo Audio power supplies, or any other products we manufacture, feel free to contact me off forum to discuss them.


----------



## Jozurr

I dont intend to upgrade the PSU on the MZ2. In stock form, how good is it compared to the LC? PS Im hating the idea of getting SE cables for all my headphones as all my high end cables are balanced.


----------



## zachawry

jozurr said:


> I dont intend to upgrade the PSU on the MZ2. In stock form, how good is it compared to the LC? PS Im hating the idea of getting SE cables for all my headphones as all my high end cables are balanced.


 

 I've had both the LC and the MZ2. I sold the LC almost immediately after getting the MZ2. Even with stock power supply and stock tubes, it is significantly better than the LC, I think. The LC sounds more vibrant and saturated, but the MZ2 is clearer, more detailed, with a bigger soundstage. It's a matter of preference, I guess. 
  
 As for cables, you could just get an adapter. 
  
 FWIW.


----------



## doctorjazz

I'd agree on ZOTL vs LC.
And, as noted, an adaptor does allow you to use balanced headphones (I use one for my HEK-have Norne Zoetic balanced cable for it, and Norne made the adaptor for me as well).


----------



## jamato8

jozurr said:


> I dont intend to upgrade the PSU on the MZ2. In stock form, how good is it compared to the LC? PS Im hating the idea of getting SE cables for all my headphones as all my high end cables are balanced.


 

 The MZ2 is better. More holographic and musical. Also on balanced cables, all you need is one adapter to take your balanced termination to a single ended. Almost all my phones have balanced termination and then I have the same wire in SE that goes to that balanced termination for SE. Very simple and straightforward.


----------



## bazelio

For PSUs, IMO, we should be looking at measurements.  What should be the case with a good PSU?
  

Voltage out tolerant of line fluctuations.
Rails that track.
No current limiter.
Low noise (unloaded).
  
 What does one need to spend to obtain a PSU with these qualities, then?  I have my own thoughts on that matter ... and one might say the topic is muddied by the lack of available data.  But if one PSU has unloaded noise of 13uA, for example, then would I care if another was better?   Me personally ... no, I would not.  This realm of hair splitting probably requires ears that would be unprecedented in audiology.  And I don't think the MZ2 is difficult to power.  2.5A seems to be a peak, non-continuous draw, and my LPS runs all day lukewarm at best.


----------



## Wildcatsare1

+1 on the Ztl 2/LC comparisons, the LC is very good, but the Ztl 2 with LPS is much better. Clarity, bass, soundstage, and immiging are far superior. My LC is staying in my bedside system (a nod to good DrJazz for the Rx) and the Ztl will stay in my main system, my Auralic Taurus Mk. 2 is headed to the F/S Thread.


----------



## doctorjazz

wildcatsare1 said:


> +1 on the Ztl 2/LC comparisons, the LC is very good, but the Ztl 2 with LPS is much better. Clarity, bass, soundstage, and immiging are far superior. My LC is staying in my bedside system (a nod to good DrJazz for the Rx) and the Ztl will stay in my main system, my Auralic Taurus Mk. 2 is headed to the F/S Thread.



While I like, and use the LC, the ZOTL with the LPS is much better, not even close! (And, it costs considerably more to boot, should be better).
Was going to try the ZOTL as a preamp into my Krell amp, but I read somewhere connecting it to a muscle power amp was a bad idea (and I got the single ended interconnect to try it, usually run it balanced). Should I not do this?


----------



## vapman

doctorjazz said:


> Was going to try the ZOTL as a preamp into my Krell amp, but I read somewhere connecting it to a muscle power amp was a bad idea (and I got the single ended interconnect to try it, usually run it balanced).


 
 I wish I had an answer for you, but I'm interested to know this too... My intention was to drive my stereo with it 3/4 of the time and use it with headphones the other 1/4 or so of the time. I love headphones but I love a full size stereo more.


----------



## doctorjazz

vapman said:


> doctorjazz said:
> 
> 
> > Was going to try the ZOTL as a preamp into my Krell amp, but I read somewhere connecting it to a muscle power amp was a bad idea (and I got the single ended interconnect to try it, usually run it balanced).
> ...




I'm OK using the ZOTL for headphones, have a good sounding preamp in the main system, more for curiosity...


----------



## rigo

doctorjazz said:


> While I like, and use the LC, the ZOTL with the LPS is much better, not even close! (And, it costs considerably more to boot, should be better).
> Was going to try the ZOTL as a preamp into my Krell amp, but I read somewhere connecting it to a muscle power amp was a bad idea (and I got the single ended interconnect to try it, usually run it balanced). Should I not do this?




Why is it a bad idea?


----------



## doctorjazz

I wish I could find the post, someone said it was unsafe to use it that way, should use it into a tube amp, impedance or something like that I don't understand...


----------



## zachawry

I sure hope this isn't true. I've been using my MZ2 into my Krell KAV 300i (not such a muscle amp as most Krells) straight for a few days. Sounds great. No issues so far.


----------



## doctorjazz

zachawry said:


> I sure hope this isn't true. I've been using my MZ2 into my Krell KAV 300i (not such a muscle amp as most Krells) straight for a few days. Sounds great. No issues so far.




Hmmm, have a KSA-150 (pretty old unit), not the most powerful Krell out there, but pretty powerful. Maybe I'll give it a try...


----------



## willsw

doctorjazz said:


> I wish I could find the post, someone said it was unsafe to use it that way, should use it into a tube amp, impedance or something like that I don't understand...


 
  
  


zachawry said:


> I sure hope this isn't true. I've been using my MZ2 into my Krell KAV 300i (not such a muscle amp as most Krells) straight for a few days. Sounds great. No issues so far.


 
  
 Basically you just don't want the turn on/off thumps to be amplified by a big amp into your delicate, expensive speakers. So, the MicroZOTL2 should be the first thing on and the last thing off. From the manual:
  
*Preamplifier Outputs*
 There is a pair of RCA jacks on the back of the unit labeled “Preamp Out” which is designed to 
 provide the input for a power amplifier when using the microZOTL as a preamplifier. 
 CAUTION: when connecting to a direct coupled solid state power amplifier, the turn on and turn 
 off transients might be dangerous to the speakers. It is highly recommended that when using the 
 microZOTL as a preamplifier with direct coupled solid state power amps, first turn on the 
 microZOTL, then turn on the power amplifier, and when turning off, first turn off the power 
 amplifier, then turn off the microZOTL. This is not an issue when using tube power amps.


----------



## vapman

willsw said:


> Basically you just don't want the turn on/off thumps to be amplified by a big amp into your delicate, expensive speakers. So, the MicroZOTL2 should be the first thing on and the last thing off. From the manual:


 

 Hmm, that's nothing different than what I've been doing. I was getting the impression the ZOTL might output a somehow harmful signal, glad to hear that isn't the case


----------



## doctorjazz

Knew I read it somewhere, thanks for the clarification.


----------



## MojoAudio

As for Bal to SE and SE to Bal, yes, one good adapter can do your whole collection.
  
 Of course at the recent ABQ Head-Fi meet we did a shoot out between three different HD800 cables. There was one expensive cable with pure silver wire, one very expensive cable with air dielectric single crystal copper and Furutech's best connectors, and one DIY cable made from $60 in pro audio parts.
  
 Nearly everyone preferred the $60 DIY cable. 
  
 So on one hand it would seem a bit silly to use one of those adapters when nearly anyone can watch a You Tube video on making cables, buy $20 in tools, and make jaw-dropping DIY headphone cables for about $60. Of course some of you might want a more experienced DIY friend to assemble it for you.
  
 On the other hand, the DIY cable that won that shoot out was the only one of the three that was hindered with one of those 1/4" to XLR adapter cables.
  
 Of course the adapter cable used in that cable shoot off was made from the same pro audio Peacock MkII wire and Neutrik connectors Allen used to make the headphone cable. So if you're not going to DIY your own new cables for your mZ2, you may want to at least DIY a good quality adapter 
  
 Just in case anyone is interested, this is where I got my Peacock MkII cable:
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Meterware-Sommer-Cable-Patch-Kabel-Mikrofon-Kabel-SC-Peacock-MKII-853971-/311122374894?hash=item487056b0ee:g:-DIAAOxycgVTgdsK
  
 And this is the official distributor Allen linked me to:
  
 http://shop.sommercable.com/en/Cables/Bulk-Cables-Audio/Patch-Mikrofonkabel-SC-Peacock-MKII-200-0552.html
  
 I bought some to make cables for the headphones we're using to demo at audiophile shows with LTA on the mZ2 with my PSU...need I say more?


----------



## doctorjazz

Sounds good, Ben,BUT...you build dacs and per power supplies. Not all that appealing to those of us who get help changing light bulbs...


----------



## MojoAudio

Making cables is not rocket surgery.
  
 Making an adapter or headphone cable would be an excellent low cost confidence building first DIY project.
  
 Peacock wire is pro audio dual coax that requires very little skill or tools:
  
 1. With a hand wire stripper carefully remove the insulation,
 2. Tin the ends of the wire and tin the contact on the connector.
 3. Sweat/solder the tinned wire and contact.
 4. Close the connector and possibly cover with shrink.
 5. Check for shorts/opens with a tester.
  
 Anyone that has the skills to follow a recipe and cook a stir fry could make a set of cables with this or any other standard pro audio wire.
  
 You could watch a You Tube video on making cables or I bet there would be some local guy(s) that could show you a few tricks to get you started.
  
 About a third of the guys at our local Head-Fi meet up were doing some DIY (like making cable or building kits).
  
 Come to the dark side...we have cookies


----------



## davide256

I'm very happy with the 'Zotl 2 as a pre... it betters my updated CJ PV10A and the  pre section that came with the Prima Luna integrated. Using it as pre to feed
 Magnepan 1.7's has made me realize the Hifiman HE 400's are slow compared to transient snap of the Magnepans.


----------



## zachawry

Just had a funny experience. Was listening to a really-well recorded album of Baroque lute music (yeah, yeah) with my MZ2 and Ethers, thinking that it was nice that the swallows had returned to the neighborhood outside because I could hear them tweeting in the distance. Only, then I realized it wasn't the swallows in the distance, just the guy's fingers moving along the strings....
  
 The sound is THAT clear and natural.


----------



## bazelio

zachawry said:


> Just had a funny experience. Was listening to a really-well recorded album of Baroque lute music (yeah, yeah) with my MZ2 and Ethers, thinking that it was nice that the swallows had returned to the neighborhood outside because I could hear them tweeting in the distance. Only, then I realized it wasn't the swallows in the distance, just the guy's fingers moving along the strings....
> 
> The sound is THAT clear and natural.




What were you listening to? I'm a fan of Baroque symphonies with period-correct instruments. I have practically every Ton Koopman CD.


----------



## zachawry

bazelio said:


> What were you listening to? I'm a fan of Baroque symphonies with period-correct instruments. I have practically every Ton Koopman CD.


 
  
 http://www.amazon.com/Dowland-My-Favorite-Paul-ODette/dp/B00H287O7K/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1463953184&sr=1-1&keywords=my+favorite+dowland
  
 Great playing, great recording.


----------



## richard51

my question will seems silly but i am dead serious... is  the external  structure of this amplifier is strong enough to withstand a weight of 30 lbs on top of it ? thanks for your reply...


----------



## doctorjazz

I have the original (SN 0002) version, which has been updated structure wise, but I'd not suggest anything heavier than headphones on top of it. 
Besides, you'd lose the view of the tubes!!!!!!



richard51 said:


> my question will seems silly but i am dead serious... is  the external  structure of this amplifier is strong enough to withstand a weight of 30 lbs on top of it ? thanks for your reply...


----------



## bazelio

The case is inexpensive and flimsy. I wouldn't put 30 pounds on it.


----------



## MojoAudio

richard51 said:


> my question will seems silly but i am dead serious... is  the external  structure of this amplifier is strong enough to withstand a weight of 30 lbs on top of it ? thanks for your reply...


 
  
 YES, it would withstand 30 pounds.
  
 Below is a photo I just took of my personal mZ2 with a rusty old 25 pound shipping scale and three Joule v5 power supplies stacked on it.
  
 It was all I had that was handy, weighed close to 30 pounds, and would stack 
  
  

  
 As you can read from the scale, it has gone around past 25 pounds and is now registering about 28.5 pounds + the weight of the scale.
  
 Note that my mZ2 doesn't even have the plastic top plate that greatly reinforces it (I'm always tube rolling).
  
 I would guess an mZ2 with plastic cover could take over 50 pounds on top of it.

 I just had to ask: what where you thinking of putting on top of an mZ2 that weights 30 pounds?


----------



## yukihasi

Wow, did I see "ZOTL electrostatic amp"? If that is real, PLEASE keep the power amp design of ZOTL10, which allows us to pair pre-amp with it and bypass the volume control.


----------



## MojoAudio

Quote:


yukihasi said:


> Wow, did I see "ZOTL electrostatic amp"? If that is real, PLEASE keep the power amp design of ZOTL10, which allows us to pair pre-amp with it and bypass the volume control.


 
  
 No, you just saw me stepping on my @#$% and making Mark a bit angry at me by my starting rumors about a project LTA has not even decided if they're even going to start.
  
 All they have right now is David Berning saying it is theoretically possible.
  
 I was hoping some of you would contact Mark so he would know how many people were interested in a ZOTL electrostatic amp (I was just joking about the hours).
  
 A formal apology from me to all of you and to the guys from LTA for leaking something that I shouldn't have.
  
 My bad.


----------



## sheldaze

There were similar leaks at the Atlanta meet this past weekend.
 Seems to me you were confirming


----------



## bazelio

Either the scale wrapped to 28.5 or those cases have the torroids removed.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Either way, I hope the spot welds (solder?) in the corners hold up over time, Ben.  Agree, though, the acrylic top does add rigidity ... but still pretty thin sheet metal sidewalls.  One thing for sure, just don't stack on top of the MZ2 if you're doing this 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 :


----------



## willsw

richard51 said:


> my question will seems silly but i am dead serious... is  the external  structure of this amplifier is strong enough to withstand a weight of 30 lbs on top of it ? thanks for your reply...


 
  
 The case can seem flimsy, especially when you take the cover off and are pushing it around getting tubes out of the tight sockets, but as Ben demonstrated, the sheet metal is welded (after the earliest run of cases) and the addition of the lexan top screwed on adds another level of stability. 30lbs will not cause sheet metal to crumple. 


yukihasi said:


> Wow, did I see "ZOTL electrostatic amp"? If that is real, PLEASE keep the power amp design of ZOTL10, which allows us to pair pre-amp with it and bypass the volume control.


 


mojoaudio said:


> Quote:
> 
> No, you just saw me stepping on my @#$%


 
  
  
 OK, OK, so we're working on an electrostatic amp based on the ZOTL10. It's in pre-prototype phase. We may change the chassis. We may not. We may try a few different things. Probably some people remember when we were excited about putting a headphone jack in the ZOTL10. We're doing some stuff, we're going to plug some stuff in, and then we're either going to give you a really great electrostatic amp or we're going to pretend it never happened. No worries, Ben, I was chatting about it at the last DC mini-meet, I think.
  
 I can confirm through the neglect of my other headphones that an SRD7-SB energizer and some old Lambdas sound really really good hooked up to a MicroZOTL2.


----------



## jamato8

50 pounds on my 1st generation MZ2. Zero problems. I don't know what the issue is anyway. And I prefer nothing on top of my amps, preamps or desktop amps etc anyway.


----------



## Jozurr

@doctorjazz I was searching this thread and came across your posts mentioning the liquid crimson, but couldnt find your detailed impressions against the MZ2. If you don't mind, I'd love to read your opinions of the Liquid Crimson vs ths MZ2 stock and upgraded PS


----------



## doctorjazz

jozurr said:


> @doctorjazz
> I was searching this thread and came across your posts mentioning the liquid crimson, but couldnt find your detailed impressions against the MZ2. If you don't mind, I'd love to read your opinions of the Liquid Crimson vs ths MZ2 stock and upgraded PS




I'd love to post some impressions, but I had the Crimson for a very short time, and really didn't get to compare to the ZOTL (I was tasked with comparing it to the Liquid Carbon, had multiple family crises...don't ask...and didn't get a chance to compare it head-to-head to the ZOTL). My gut impressions, without doing the head to head (and I hate to post without doing head to head, which is why I didn't post it there, I specifically mentioned my regrets about not having time to listen and compare more), is it is more of a taste kind of thing. The Crimson, as I said there, is, in a word, SMOOOOOOOOOOOTHHHHHHHHHH....I think Cavalli, based on the 2 amps I've heard, takes the "Liquid" part of the names of the amps very seriously, they are warm, smooth, open (the Crimson more than the Carbon, beats the Carbon considerably-as does the ZOTL). I don't think the ZOTL gives up anything in detail, open sound, PRAT to the Crimson, but Cavelli solid state sounds more classically "tubey" than the ZOTL (again, just from the 2 amps I've heard). I could be wrong here, as I really didn't get to do that audiophile, "OK, lets play the Opening to "Ripple" (Grateful Dead, natch) 50 times going back and forth, see which one lets me hear Jerry Garcia pass gas" thing, so I didn't evaluate detail retrieval. But, again, I think it's more a sound preference thing...I didn't have the urge to move my ZOTL after using the Crimson. I've read the Liquid Gold is better (but, I've been told by someone who has both the Gold and the ZOTL, not to sell the ZOTL to get the Gold...)
That's about all I can tell you...


----------



## drbluenewmexico

doctorjazz said:


> I'd love to post some impressions, but I had the Crimson for a very short time, and really didn't get to compare to the ZOTL (I was tasked with comparing it to the Liquid Carbon, had multiple family crises...don't ask...and didn't get a chance to compare it head-to-head to the ZOTL). My gut impressions, without doing the head to head (and I hate to post without doing head to head, which is why I didn't post it there, I specifically mentioned my regrets about not having time to listen and compare more), is it is more of a taste kind of thing. The Crimson, as I said there, is, in a word, SMOOOOOOOOOOOTHHHHHHHHHH....I think Cavalli, based on the 2 amps I've heard, takes the "Liquid" part of the names of the amps very seriously, they are warm, smooth, open (the Crimson more than the Carbon, beats the Carbon considerably-as does the ZOTL). I don't think the ZOTL gives up anything in detail, open sound, PRAT to the Crimson, but Cavelli solid state sounds more classically "tubey" than the ZOTL (again, just from the 2 amps I've heard). I could be wrong here, as I really didn't get to do that audiophile, "OK, lets play the Opening to "Ripple" (Grateful Dead, natch) 50 times going back and forth, see which one lets me hear Jerry Garcia pass gas" thing, so I didn't evaluate detail retrieval. But, again, I think it's more a sound preference thing...I didn't have the urge to move my ZOTL after using the Crimson. I've read the Liquid Gold is better (but, I've been told by someone who has both the Gold and the ZOTL, not to sell the ZOTL to get the Gold...)
> That's about all I can tell you...


 

 The Jerry Garcia Pass the Gas Test should be an audiophile test CD put out by Stereophile and recorded bianually by Chesky Labs in 196 hz.  perhaps in surround sound
 Thanks for your candid comments doctorjazz! I will pass this on to my friends who play in the Let it Grow Grateful Dead cover band in their live performance this Friday night, perhaps we can get some audio samplesfor the cd after dinner....or not...


----------



## doctorjazz

Serve bean burritos...


----------



## richard51

mojoaudio said:


> YES, it would withstand 30 pounds.
> 
> Below is a photo I just took of my personal mZ2 with a rusty old 25 pound shipping scale and three Joule v5 power supplies stacked on it.
> 
> ...


 

  thank you for this extraordinary simple proof.... i have asked that because of my experimentation with sorbothane.... i know for sure now that all piece of gear vibrate and put negative resonance in the chain system... I want the Zotl 2 one day and it is very important to me to put sorbothane  under it and the results from my experience are better if the sorb is compressed by a load on top of it  , hence i will put at least  a load of 20 pounds on top of it to compress the sorbothane.... i will never buy now  a piece of gear without sorbothanizing it , all my gear are sorbothanized, including the power conditioner and headphones, and the results are the most astounding upgrade you may hope for at a ridiculus costs, by the way the sorbothanization of all the piece of gear have a cumulative effect...... Read the Edstrelow thread ... thanks to you for your kind and exemplary response, i have been  interested bythe zotl for the last year, i only wait for my money to come to buy it


----------



## willsw

Herb Reichert's review of the MicroZOTL2 for Stereophile is now online: http://www.stereophile.com/content/linear-tube-audio-microzotl20-line-stageheadphone-amplifier


----------



## jamato8

willsw said:


> Herb Reichert's review of the MicroZOTL2 for Stereophile is now online: http://www.stereophile.com/content/linear-tube-audio-microzotl20-line-stageheadphone-amplifier


 

 Great review by them! It pretty much says it all. A great bargain on what can be considered one of the ultimate sound delivery amps on the market.


----------



## Audio Addict

willsw said:


> Herb Reichert's review of the MicroZOTL2 for Stereophile is now online: http://www.stereophile.com/content/linear-tube-audio-microzotl20-line-stageheadphone-amplifier


 
  
@doctorjazz Isn't that your Serial Number 0002 ??????  How could survive without it for any length of time?


----------



## willsw

audio addict said:


> @doctorjazz
> Isn't that your Serial Number 0002 ??????  How could survive without it for any length of time?




Good DoctorJazz is owner of our model model, photographed for the website, which most publications have used. Eventually we'll take pictures of a newer unit, as the newest units do look ever so slightly different from that graceful box of DrJ.


----------



## doctorjazz

audio addict said:


> willsw said:
> 
> 
> > Herb Reichert's review of the MicroZOTL2 for Stereophile is now online: http://www.stereophile.com/content/linear-tube-audio-microzotl20-line-stageheadphone-amplifier
> ...




HOW DID HERB GET MY AMP!!! I'm going to have words with him! 

(@willsw answered the question seconds before I posted...but I couldn't resist!)


----------



## Audio Addict

willsw said:


> Good DoctorJazz is owner of our model model, photographed for the website, which most publications have used. Eventually we'll take pictures of a newer unit, as the newest units do look ever so slightly different from that graceful box of DrJ.


 
  
  
 Okay, I thought it was the reviewer's unit.  Whew, I wondered how he could have been without it very long


----------



## Jozurr

zachawry said:


> I've had both the LC and the MZ2. I sold the LC almost immediately after getting the MZ2. Even with stock power supply and stock tubes, it is significantly better than the LC, I think. The LC sounds more vibrant and saturated, but the MZ2 is clearer, more detailed, with a bigger soundstage. It's a matter of preference, I guess.
> 
> As for cables, you could just get an adapter.
> 
> FWIW.


 
  
  


doctorjazz said:


> I'd agree on ZOTL vs LC.
> And, as noted, an adaptor does allow you to use balanced headphones (I use one for my HEK-have Norne Zoetic balanced cable for it, and Norne made the adaptor for me as well).


 
  
 My main interest is, how is the bass impact and quality on the MZ2 vs the LC? I keep reading that the LC is more "dynamic" which makes me think it extends better on the higher/lower end?


----------



## sheldaze

jozurr said:


> My main interest is, how is the bass impact and quality on the MZ2 vs the LC? I keep reading that the LC is more "dynamic" which makes me think it extends better on the higher/lower end?


 
 I too sold my LC once I bought my MZ2. I am most curious from your post where you are referencing that the bass impact of the LC is deeper, more dynamic than the MZ2?
  
 And I would directly answer you that the highs are better, to my ears, on the MZ2. There was more detail and definition, particularly on the HE1K, which can sound a little relaxed, almost veiled on some amplifiers. I have heard several lower-priced amplifiers on which I could get ample detail on HD800S. But it was my ownership of the HE1K that brought me to the MZ2.
  
 I would add that MZ2 does well with the highly detailed HD800. Though I could see how someone might prefer the Cavalli sound, and how it tames the highs on the HD800.  But even then, I think the MZ2 is worth the audition, as I think it does quite well with HD800 too.


----------



## doctorjazz

I can pull out my LC at some point this weekend and direct compare, don't do well comparing by memory. But the LC, while good sounding for the price, is thick and confused sounding compared to the ZOTL (from memory). I think it editorialises...it's a bit like a hypersaturated photo, where the colors are more vibrant than life. This is an attractive coloration, and some may prefer it. The ZOTL is more neutral (but not boring, as some might take that term). Sounds great with the HEK and the Omni (don't have experience with the HD800) (I did get to spend a week with the Liquid Crimson, better than the LC but still some euphonic coloration, the Cavalli house sound maybe. Didn't have a chance to compare it to the ZOTL).


----------



## Jozurr

sheldaze said:


> I too sold my LC once I bought my MZ2. I am most curious from your post where you are referencing that the bass impact of the LC is deeper, more dynamic than the MZ2?
> 
> And I would directly answer you that the highs are better, to my ears, on the MZ2. There was more detail and definition, particularly on the HE1K, which can sound a little relaxed, almost veiled on some amplifiers. I have heard several lower-priced amplifiers on which I could get ample detail on HD800S. But it was my ownership of the HE1K that brought me to the MZ2.
> 
> I would add that MZ2 does well with the highly detailed HD800. Though I could see how someone might prefer the Cavalli sound, and how it tames the highs on the HD800.  But even then, I think the MZ2 is worth the audition, as I think it does quite well with HD800 too.




I assumed thats what more dynamic meant.



doctorjazz said:


> I can pull out my LC at some point this weekend and direct compare, don't do well comparing by memory. But the LC, while good sounding for the price, is thick and confused sounding compared to the ZOTL (from memory). I think it editorialises...it's a bit like a hypersaturated photo, where the colors are more vibrant than life. This is an attractive coloration, and some may prefer it. The ZOTL is more neutral (but not boring, as some might take that term). Sounds great with the HEK and the Omni (don't have experience with the HD800) (I did get to spend a week with the Liquid Crimson, better than the LC but still some euphonic coloration, the Cavalli house sound maybe. Didn't have a chance to compare it to the ZOTL).




That'd be great


----------



## Jozurr

zachawry said:


> I sure hope this isn't true. I've been using my MZ2 into my Krell KAV 300i (not such a muscle amp as most Krells) straight for a few days. Sounds great. No issues so far.




I read on the LG thread that you were getting the Glass. Did you get around to it? managed to compare it to the MZ2?


----------



## sheldaze

sheldaze said:


> I too sold my LC once I bought my MZ2. I am most curious from your post *where you are referencing* that the bass impact of the LC is deeper, more dynamic than the MZ2?


 
  


jozurr said:


> I assumed thats what more dynamic meant.


 
 Where, in what thread, on what specific posts, are you reading this?


----------



## Egghead

mojoaudio said:


> Quote:
> 
> No, you just saw me stepping on my @#$% and making Mark a bit angry at me by my starting rumors about a project LTA has not even decided if they're even going to start.
> 
> ...


 
 Hi, everyone.  New to this forum and a new owner of a microZOTL2 + LPS amplifier (serial number 0153).  The fact that Berning is interested in a ZOTL-based electrostatic headphone amplifier fascinates and baffles me. The genius of the ZOTL design is the  active impedance dropping circuity that Dave has developed to power low impedance dynamic headphones (16 to 600 ohms) from the high impedance output tube plates without using audio frequency transformers.  But electrostatic headphones have very high impedance, roughly 100,000 ohms or higher.  This is an impedance level that tubes can easily drive without help from an output transformer or from a ZOTL section. Thus, there is no need for a ZOTL output section; the tube plates can be directly coupled (by capacitor) to the electrostatic stators.  This has been recognized for decades, and dozens of amplifiers from Stax and others (Gilmore, Woo) have gone down this OTL path.  What I want to know is what Dave could possibly devise that is new and worth marketing along this line.


----------



## MojoAudio

egghead said:


> Hi, everyone.  New to this forum and a new owner of a microZOTL2 + LPS amplifier (serial number 0153).  The fact that Berning is interested in a ZOTL-based electrostatic headphone amplifier fascinates and baffles me. The genius of the ZOTL design is the  active impedance dropping circuity that Dave has developed to power low impedance dynamic headphones (16 to 600 ohms) from the high impedance output tube plates without using audio frequency transformers.  But electrostatic headphones have very high impedance, roughly 100,000 ohms or higher.  This is an impedance level that tubes can easily drive without help from an output transformer or from a ZOTL section. Thus, there is no need for a ZOTL output section; the tube plates can be directly coupled (by capacitor) to the electrostatic stators.  This has been recognized for decades, and dozens of amplifiers from Stax and others (Gilmore, Woo) have gone down this OTL path.  What I want to know is what Dave could possibly devise that is new and worth marketing along this line.


 
  
 I can't speak for everyone else, but my reason for me wanting a ZOTL10 electrostatic amp would be that I could have one amp in my bedroom that would be a ZOTL10 to play through a pair of speakers, as well as a dynamic headphones, as well as electrostatic headphones. Can any of those other electrostatic amps drive dynamic headphones and speakers too?


----------



## Egghead

mojoaudio said:


> I can't speak for everyone else, but my reason for me wanting a ZOTL10 electrostatic amp would be that I could have one amp in my bedroom that would be a ZOTL10 to play through a pair of speakers, as well as a dynamic headphones, as well as electrostatic headphones. Can any of those other electrostatic amps drive dynamic headphones and speakers too?


 
 I concede none can, but the size of the market for such flexibility in one box must be minuscule.  If I have already invested in high quality electrostatic headphones worthy of a super quality amplifier (one to thousands of dollars), then I already own a quality electrostatic amplifier. If it is solid state it is already OTL, and if it is tube it is likely to be OTL. So what I need for my electrostatic amplifier is an add-on step-down device that drives dynamic headphones and small speakers via the headphone output jack.  This is just the opposite of the step up transformers Stax markets for electrostatic headphones driven from standard amplifier speaker terminals.  But the approach is problematic for a ZOTL add-on, since a wide variety of electostatic headphone amps must be accommodated with the potential for gain and feedback stability issues when driving a ZOTL circuit.  If one wanted flexiblity and is willing to put up with two boxes, why wouldn't one buy a good, standard integrated amp (maybe even solid state!) and add an electrostatic step up transformer? Or better, keep the electrostatic headphone amp and by a microZOTL2 or ZOTL10 modified with an added headphone jack?


----------



## MojoAudio

egghead said:


> I concede none can, but the size of the market for such flexibility in one box must be minuscule.  If I have already invested in high quality electrostatic headphones worthy of a super quality amplifier (one to thousands of dollars), then I already own a quality electrostatic amplifier. If it is solid state it is already OTL, and if it is tube it is likely to be OTL. So what I need for my electrostatic amplifier is an add-on step-down device that drives dynamic headphones and small speakers via the headphone output jack.  This is just the opposite of the step up transformers Stax markets for electrostatic headphones driven from standard amplifier speaker terminals.  But the approach is problematic for a ZOTL add-on, since a wide variety of electostatic headphone amps must be accommodated with the potential for gain and feedback stability issues when driving a ZOTL circuit.  If one wanted flexiblity and is willing to put up with two boxes, why wouldn't one buy a good, standard integrated amp (maybe even solid state!) and add an electrostatic step up transformer? Or better, keep the electrostatic headphone amp and by a microZOTL2 or ZOTL10 modified with an added headphone jack?


 
  
 This would not be some compromise as you are implying. No step up or down - the topology of the ZOTL10 is nearly identical to a direct-drive electrostatic amp. I'm an EE and I would simply have a switching board that would allow me to direct drive the high impedance electrostatic headphones through a constant current source with a bias current, and switch to the ZOTL circuit for everything else.
  
 I own/love a highly modified Stax T1 amp and Omega II SR-007 Mk1 headphones. We have a few high-level DIYers here in ABQ and we literally meet a few times a month to play our upgraded or custom Stax amps for each other (we're actually meeting tomorrow). All I can say is the concept of an all tube direct-drive electrostatic amp with EL84 output tubes intrigues me.
  
 Since I already wanted a ZOTL10 for my bedroom, I'm tickled that LTA is considering this project. No promises from LTA, but I'm crossing my fingers, and I want an amp from the first production run


----------



## zachawry

jozurr said:


> I read on the LG thread that you were getting the Glass. Did you get around to it? managed to compare it to the MZ2?


 

 Was going to get the Glass, but didn't relish the thought of waiting 7-8 months for it. Got the MZ2 instead.


----------



## Wildcatsare1

zachawry said:


> Was going to get the Glass, but didn't relish the thought of waiting 7-8 months for it. Got the MZ2 instead.




I was in line for an LAu, but have decided to go with the ZOTL (review pending). Listened to the LAu at the Nashville Meet and slightly preferred the ZOTL, it actually had superior clarity. Plus it's much less expensive and the acquisition process is superior.


----------



## sheldaze

wildcatsare1 said:


> I was in line for an LAu, but have decided to go with the ZOTL (review pending). Listened to the LAu at the Nashville Meet and slightly preferred the ZOTL, it actually had superior clarity. Plus it's much less expensive and the acquisition process is superior.


 
 Looking forward to your review!
 Also, hope things are all settled for you. I'll definitely have to make the next SouthEast meet.


----------



## Wildcatsare1

sheldaze said:


> Looking forward to your review!
> Also, hope things are all settled for you. I'll definitely have to make the next SouthEast meet.




I look forward to finally meeting you Sheldon! Just need to get my Audio Room/Office set up again. Hated to miss Canlanta, but it was literally on our moving day.

Does anybody know if there is a Head Fi Group in the Lexington, Louisville, Cinncinati area?


----------



## Egghead

mojoaudio said:


> This would not be some compromise as you are implying. No step up or down - the topology of the ZOTL10 is nearly identical to a direct-drive electrostatic amp. I'm an EE and I would simply have a switching board that would allow me to direct drive the high impedance electrostatic headphones through a constant current source with a bias current, and switch to the ZOTL circuit for everything else.
> 
> I own/love a highly modified Stax T1 amp and Omega II SR-007 Mk1 headphones. We have a few high-level DIYers here in ABQ and we literally meet a few times a month to play our upgraded or custom Stax amps for each other (we're actually meeting tomorrow). All I can say is the concept of an all tube direct-drive electrostatic amp with EL84 output tubes intrigues me.
> 
> Since I already wanted a ZOTL10 for my bedroom, I'm tickled that LTA is considering this project. No promises from LTA, but I'm crossing my fingers, and I want an amp from the first production run


 
 If you want a taste of EL84 sound, the Kingsound M-20 exists today and is an EL84 output electrostatic amp.  It runs all triode, with a similar input amp and phase splitter design as the microZOTL but not in constant current on the output tubes.  This last gives it a softer, tube-like sound which I anticipate will be the sound of a ZOTL 10 modified as you suggest but without constant current.  I use the Kingsound with my L-700s every day.  It works well, but the sound is definitely not ZOTL sound.


----------



## MojoAudio

egghead said:


> If you want a taste of EL84 sound, the Kingsound M-20 exists today and is an EL84 output electrostatic amp.  It runs all triode, with a similar input amp and phase splitter design as the microZOTL but not in constant current on the output tubes.  This last gives it a softer, tube-like sound which I anticipate will be the sound of a ZOTL 10 modified as you suggest but without constant current.  I use the Kingsound with my L-700s every day.  It works well, but the sound is definitely not ZOTL sound.


 
  
 I'm not looking for a "taste" of anything. I likely have the parts in my spare parts bins to build an EL-84 electrostatic amp and I could probably build one on a piece of wood in about a day.
  
 I have no doubt the Kingsound amp is high-value product. The problem is that both my T1 and the Kingsound are built from modest quality parts (as all components in their price range are) and they have little room inside their chassis to add proper parts. Of course ZOTL chassis are much bigger 
  
 I have two local high-level DIYers coming over today to audition and discuss the various modifications we've made to our personal electrostatic headphone amps in the past couple of weeks. Between the three of us we own a pair of Stax Lambda Pros, Lambda Nova Signatures, Omega 007 Mk1, and Mk2. 
  
 We are literally going through all the old Stax and Gilmore schematics we can get our hands on and re-engineering them with better power supplies and better component part choices. I have no doubt that in the next year or three I'll be building myself a custom electrostatic amp that will weigh around 50 pounds and cost me over $3K in parts. Seriously. Good iron is heavy and expensive.
  
 The BIG advantage of this still theoretical ZOTL10 electrostatic amp is that no other electrostatic amp can drive both electrostatic headphones and dynamic speakers.  So even after I've built my dream electrostatic headphone amp I'm sure I would still want to have such a versatile little amplifier in my bedroom.
  
 As interesting as the topic of LTA making an electrostatic amp is, this is an mZ2 thread, and we've gotten pretty far off topic discussing theoretical future products from LTA.


----------



## Jozurr

sheldaze said:


> Where, in what thread, on what specific posts, are you reading this?


 
  
 Went back and searched, I read vibrant and not dynamic.


zachawry said:


> Was going to get the Glass, but didn't relish the thought of waiting 7-8 months for it. Got the MZ2 instead.


 
  
 Did you hear the glass? If yes how did you like it compared to your MZ2?
  


wildcatsare1 said:


> I was in line for an LAu, but have decided to go with the ZOTL (review pending). Listened to the LAu at the Nashville Meet and slightly preferred the ZOTL, it actually had superior clarity. Plus it's much less expensive and the acquisition process is superior.


 
  
 Other than clarity, what else did you like on the Zotl vs the LAu?
  
 I've just acquired the Liquid Glass, which is an amzing amp in it's own right, but my curiosity is still making me consider the MZ2.


----------



## Wildcatsare1

jozurr said:


> Went back and searched, I read vibrant and not dynamic.
> 
> Did you hear the glass? If yes how did you like it compared to your MZ2?
> 
> ...




Not so much superior, but more of an equal to the LAu. Though, show conditions and the ZOTL was in my personal system to review. I love the Cavali house sound, have the LC, but equality at half the price makes me tilt to the MicrZOTL 2.


----------



## MojoAudio

wildcatsare1 said:


> Not so much superior, but more of an equal to the LAu. Though, show conditions and the ZOTL was in my personal system to review. I love the Cavali house sound, have the LC, but equality at half the price makes me tilt to the MicrZOTL 2.


 
  
 I think the LG is a unique concept with all the various tubes you can use. But the same electronics schema that allows for all that versatility will invariably limit performance with all the extra switching and physical proximity between parts. Any engineer worth his salt will tell you "less is more."
  
 Everyone has experienced this with one product or another.
  
 Personally I own/love my Honda Element that converts from an SUV to a passenger mini-van to a cargo van and to a camper. It does all those things but none of them particularly well. Of course I love it because I needed versatility over ultimate performance. I think many of you will find you'll have a similar opinion of the LC.
  
 Back to the mZ2, what PSU did you use with your mZ2 when you compared it to the LC Wildcatsare1?
  
 The reason I ask is that is if you compared the LG with the original ZOTL/SMPS and it was close to the LG, then the mZ2 with the new ZOTL LPS could be significantly better than the LC for a fraction of the price.
  
 Now factor in that the LG has to have either output caps or transformers that inevitably distort time/tune/phase and limit bandwidth and the mZ2 doesn't.
  
 For a person with deep pockets that was looking to spend >$2,500 on a dynamic headphone amp, I would seriously recommend considering an mZ2 upgraded with an über PSU that sells for >$1K, such as a Paul Hynes or Uptown Audio. And if you had really deep pockets there are even better power supplies out there for >$1,500


----------



## MojoAudio

Did I ever mention that if any of you wanted to upgrade your mZ2, for about $350-$500 in parts and an afternoon with a soldering gun, you could take an mZ2 to a whole new level of performance?


----------



## Greggo

For whatever it is worth, I will share my own recent struggles in planning my ongoing headphone journey...
  
 I have a Cavalli Liquid Carbon on the way and I am expecting it will be my last amp for a while but I could easily see myself upgrading to a used Crimson or Glass. I have a Nighthawk and getting ready to add an HD800S to the equation.
  
 I will wait another year or two and see what Hifiman, Audeze, and Mr Speakers come up with, but the one thing I heard recently that really blew my mind was @comzee 's rig at the Minneapolis meet a couple weeks ago. I would be really tracking the anticipation of the Mr Speaker's electrostat but the idea of needing a Cavalli Lightning or something similar means it would be just too much of an investment and too narrow of a focus to have any rationale role in my plans. I would either go "all in" electrostatic or stay away and remain focused on dynamics and planars. I know I could never do the former because it is not a sound that I would truly love across all genres all the time as my only option, but it is something I would truly treasure as one of a few options depending on my mood
  
 The idea that I might be able to buy an amp that would stay in the 2-3k range (???) instead of 4-5k range, and allow me to do justice to an HD800S and any high end electrostat would be a complete game changer and I  would be all over it, especially if a really high end electrostatic headphone option in the 2.5k range became an option at some point down the road.


----------



## Hifi01170

mojoaudio said:


> Did I ever mention that if any of you wanted to upgrade your mZ2, for about $350-$500 in parts and an afternoon with a soldering gun, you could take an mZ2 to a whole new level of performance?


 
  
 can you please share how??


----------



## MojoAudio

hifi01170 said:


> can you please share how??


 
  
 Sure.
  
 I'm upgrading an mZ2 for a local friend and I could take photos and give everyone links to my parts choices if you want.
  
 If you guys wanted details, it might work better for me to post a blog and put a link to the blog in this thread.
  
 Of course I could vomit up the parts to replace with no photos in about 5 minutes if any experienced DIYers wanted the short fast answers.
  
 Just let me know what you guys want - I'll be doing it for a local guy so it wouldn't be too much more effort to take photos and copy you all on my parts sources.


----------



## zachawry

wildcatsare1 said:


> I was in line for an LAu, but have decided to go with the ZOTL (review pending). Listened to the LAu at the Nashville Meet and slightly preferred the ZOTL, it actually had superior clarity. Plus it's much less expensive and the acquisition process is superior.


 

 Glad to hear that! I've never actually heard the Glass--another reason I didn't want to wait the better part of a year and pay twice the price compared to the MZ2. 
  
 People talk about the "Cavalli sound," but from my experience with Carbon and the reading about impressions of other Cavalli amps, I prefer the "Zotl sound" of pristine clarity over saturation.


----------



## zachawry

mojoaudio said:


> For a person with deep pockets that was looking to spend >$2,500 on a dynamic headphone amp, I would seriously recommend considering an mZ2 upgraded with an über PSU that sells for >$1K, such as a Paul Hynes or Uptown Audio. And if you had really deep pockets there are even better power supplies out there for >$1,500


 
  
 I am a total neophyte when it comes to this stuff. I was pretty skeptical about the power supply making much of a difference, but I bought the LPS anyway. I was totally blown away by the difference it made. From someone who makes power supplies and actually knows about this stuff, can you give an explanation a layman could understand about why this works?


----------



## doctorjazz

Just a quick note here...the LTA LPS improved the sound, the Mojo Audio Joule v5, which I've had the pleasure of using for a review, improved the sound even more. More details to come...


----------



## zachawry

doctorjazz said:


> Just a quick note here...the LTA LPS improved the sound, the Mojo Audio Joule v5, which I've had the pleasure of using for a review, improved the sound even more. More details to come...


 

 Stop it, dangit!!! doctorjazz, I demand you retract this post _*immediately*_. It's costing me money!


----------



## zachawry

I've now swapped everything around so that my MZ2 is hooked up to my Krell amp to drive my Dynaudio speakers. It's still a pale imitation of the sound I get from my Ethers, but unfortunately one cannot live life with headphones on all the time. And, there is still some "MZ2 magic" that comes through the system. 
  
 I have to take out the headphones from the jack whenever I want to use the MZ2 as a pre-amp, right? Is this true for whether or not I'm using the pre-amp out or the direct speaker outs? 
  
 This is going to be increasing even more the wear on the headphone jack. Is this something I need to worry about?


----------



## doctorjazz

When I do headphone reviews, I must unplug and replug hundreds of times, much more than normal use. No problems so far...


----------



## Wildcatsare1

mojoaudio said:


> I think the LG is a unique concept with all the various tubes you can use. But the same electronics schema that allows for all that versatility will invariably limit performance with all the extra switching and physical proximity between parts. Any engineer worth his salt will tell you "less is more."
> 
> Everyone has experienced this with one product or another.
> 
> ...




Hey Ben, I have the LPS with my review unit and looking forward to listening to your power supply when DrJazz wraps up his evaluation. I'll hold back on the soldering iron for the moment, guessing Mark and Will would prefer I review the ZOTL and buy it prior to popping the hood .


----------



## zachawry

OK, one more question: 
  
 I'm having a new cable made for my Ethers, and I'm thinking about having it made balanced for maximum flexibility going forward. 
  
 If I did this, I would get a short 6" or so adapter with a 1/4" plug for the MZ2 and an XLR termination for the Ethers.
  
 When using the MZ2 as a pre-amp, could I leave the adapter plugged into the MZ2 (and just remove the headphones from the adapter)? 
  
 In other words, would an adapter with no headphones attached plugged into the MZ2's jack complete some sort of circuit? 
  
 Thx.


----------



## MojoAudio

zachawry said:


> OK, one more question:
> 
> I'm having a new cable made for my Ethers, and I'm thinking about having it made balanced for maximum flexibility going forward.
> 
> ...


 
  
 No, an adapter hanging from an mZ2 would not complete a circuit, but it could act as an antenna for noise, and it would most certainly make a great cat toy


----------



## Wildcatsare1

Oh P.S., I haven't heard a LG in too long to mention it, the LAu was fairly recently, but too brief to provide a significant comparison. Though in my brief listen (many huge caveats; meet conditions, not head to head, etc.) nothing stood out between the two. Now I can categorically say the ZOTL is a better amp than the LC, which it should be with the price difference. The LC is a great amp, but the ZOTL is the better amp across the board.


----------



## defbear

zachawry said:


> Stop it, dangit!!! doctorjazz, I demand you retract this post _*immediately*_. It's costing me money!


heayar, heayar!


----------



## crazychile

mojoaudio said:


> hifi01170 said:
> 
> 
> > can you please share how??
> ...




Mojo, a blog or something with the parts and steps would be incredible. I've built kits and simple circuits, but my electronics theory background is severely lacking. Even after tinkering around with this stuff for 30 years. I would love to figure out how to build a simple LPS.


----------



## doctorjazz

defbear said:


> zachawry said:
> 
> 
> > Stop it, dangit!!! doctorjazz, I demand you retract this post _*immediately*_. It's costing me money!
> ...




Waddaya think it's doing to me? I'm supposed to be on a gear free diet, now I have to think about how to swing an upgrade...:rolleyes:

The way I figure it, if you're looking for realistic, "absolute sound", the best gear out there probably doesn't get you more than10% there (made up percentage to get the idea across...). That means, however TOTL what you have is, there is always room to improve (which is good, but can also be bad for the bank account). And, as I also say often, diminishing returns is a cruel motha. Better usually (but not always in a linear way) costs more. Hey, you can get from A to B just as well in a Chevy Spark as in a Porsch 911. The advantages of the 911 may not be that important to you, the expense may be prohibitive, but nobody is going to say they are as good, even though they'll both get you to work.


----------



## MojoAudio

crazychile said:


> Mojo, a blog or something with the parts and steps would be incredible. I've built kits and simple circuits, but my electronics theory background is severely lacking. Even after tinkering around with this stuff for 30 years. I would love to figure out how to build a simple LPS.


 
  
 A basic LPS is easy.
  
 There are boards and kits on eBay that you can buy and modify, such as these:
  
http://www.ebay.com/itm/LT1083-Linear-power-Adjustable-power-supply-module-Board-7A-/141849276682?hash=item2106e0310a:g:R1cAAOSwwE5WaRsm
  
 This one is a bit minimalist, but you could easily add more/better capacitance.
  
 Various permutations of this LT1083 circuit and similar circuits with IC "chip" regulators combined with different amounts of AC input filtering, different types and amounts of capacitance, different features, and fancy chassis, comprise over 80% of the LPS products sold to audiophiles.
  
 And here is a link to the LT1083 regulator, which has basic PSU schematics on it:
  
http://cds.linear.com/docs/en/datasheet/108345fh.pdf
  
 Here's a PSU board that uses what appears to be better quality parts and a DISCRETE regulator:
  
http://www.ebay.com/itm/S11-Super-regulated-linear-power-supply-board-5-30V-LPS-KG-4700uF-35V-Versio-PSU-/131767451684?hash=item1eadf3c024:g:IooAAOSwgApW~L3N
  
 This one seems better, with over twice the maximum current rating and larger/better capacitance. The regulator is some discrete one - could be better or could be worse than the LT1083. One important aspect of any discrete regulator is PROTECTION. IC chip regulators such as the LT1083 have all sorts of over-current, short circuit, and runaway voltage shut down protection circuits built into them. Though there is potential for higher performance with this type (not this specific) of discrete regulator, you open yourself up to all sorts of risks if you apply it wrong or if something out of your control goes wrong (like a faulty part).
  
 It took me about three years working with two of the smartest EEs I know to develop the protection circuits I use in my next gen Illuminati PSU. Seriously. Never downplay the importance of protection circuits built into IC regulator chips like the LT1083.
  
 In any event, the power transformer you use would be similar with all of these. To regulate down to 12V you'll need at least 13.5V (too close), but I like to use about 15V so that I have more headroom in case of low AC voltage or AC voltage fluctuations.
  
 Since rectified DC is 1.414 times the AC voltage you would need a 12V power transformer to get the roughly 15V you would want to feed your regulator. Wait...doesn't 12V x 1.414 = 16.97V?!?!?!? Yes. You have to account for the additional .7V x 2 forward drop from the bridge rectifier. Note: some bridge rectifiers have more and some have less forward drop, but since you can't buy 11V and 13V AC power transformers that easy, I go with the common 12V for low drop out regulators like these and the common 15V power transformers for less efficient regulators and rectifiers.
  
 What size power transformer?
  
 Theoretically, you could use a 50VA power transformer (50VA / 12V = 4.17A of power), but I would recommend a 100VA for a more liquid and effortless sound.
  
 The only thing I should add to all that is STAR GROUNDING. You want all of your DC grounds to "star" to your DC output connector and all of your AC grounds and chassis ground "star" to the ground on your IEC. If you're getting some hum or odd noise I would recommend "lifting" the AC ground from the DC ground leaving AC only connected to chassis ground.
  
 Have fun


----------



## Hifi01170

being in the trade and pointing towards other decent options from the bay.... thumbs up man for your attitude!!!


----------



## MojoAudio

hifi01170 said:


> being in the trade and pointing towards other decent options from the bay.... thumbs up man for your attitude!!!


 
  
 No worries.
  
 I started out as I DIYer decades ago so I'm always open to give my "peeps" a hand up when I can.
  
 Besides...
  
 Do you think Ferrari would lose anything by giving away free tips and tricks on how to upgrade your Toyota? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 You may have also read I'm working on an mZ2 upgrade blog as well.
  
 I'm already upgrading my personal mZ2 and doing similar upgrades for local audiophiles...I might as well document it.
  
 Please be patient: an mZ2 upgrade blog will take quite a bit of photos as well as parts I may not have in house, so it will take me a bit of time to get it all together.


----------



## MojoAudio

zachawry said:


> I am a total neophyte when it comes to this stuff. I was pretty skeptical about the power supply making much of a difference, but I bought the LPS anyway. I was totally blown away by the difference it made. From someone who makes power supplies and actually knows about this stuff, can you give an explanation a layman could understand about why this works?


 
 Wow!
  
 With all those posts you don't seem like a neophyte.
  
 In any event, I'll try to explain the importance of power supplies in layman's terms.
  
 Here it goes…
  
 All music playback components run on DC, or direct current.Theoretically perfect DC would be a flawlessly horizontal line.The "noise" in a power supply is measured as "peak-to-peak ripple" which looks like subtle ripples on the surface of a freshwater pond when viewed on test equipment. Ripple is the difference between what is coming out of a power supply and the flawless horizontal line that is theoretically perfect DC.
  
 Music is AC, or alternating current, which would look like deep ocean waves (not breaking waves) when viewed on test equipment. In that deep ocean wave metaphor, the huge waves would be bass notes, the rolls and swells in the huge waves would be mids, and the textures on the surface of the water would be highs.
  
 When you amplify music ideally you would add a perfectly horizontal line of DC and recreate that identical “music wave pattern" only larger and with more energy. In reality when you add the “ripple/noise“ in real world DC to a real world AC music wave it superimposes itself on the wave and changes the surface. What that translates to in terms of musical reproduction is a loss of the high-frequency details that reveal the natural air/space in a recording, as well as a loss of a percentage of the tone and timbre that define specific instruments.
  
 But “low noise” is just the beginning when it comes to a high-performance power supply.
  
 Like I always say:
  
 “Specifications in high-end audio are like bikinis: the important things are not what they reveal, but what they cover up” 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 So you’ll see all sorts of great “low noise” specifications on power supplies, but rarely any specifications that are actually useful. Two of the most important characteristics of a high-performance power are: response time to changes in current draw and headroom.
  
 So now back to our “deep ocean wave” metaphor…
  
 You can picture what loss of “headroom” in a power supply would do if we added things to our deep ocean wave metaphor, like sandbars, shallows, and the shore. When the ocean bottom begins to shallow, it distorts the ocean wave causing it to “lean” and accelerate, similar to how running out of headroom in a PSU distorts the musical wave (simple physics).

 We could probably equate the sudden peak/dip in a deep ocean wave when it hits sandbars or reefs to how AC spikes and dips can affect a mid-fi PSU.
  
 When you “clip” your power supply it could be equated to waves breaking on the shore. That would only happen when the PSU is does not have a high enough current flow for the circuit it is powering. Very rare except in cheap components.
  
 An interesting phenomenon of mid-fi power supplies is they have a pattern of charge/discharge that follows the peaks in the music giving a false sense of PRAT. To the inexperienced, this false PRAT can actually sound better. That is why when people ask me how to "listen" to evaluate components I always tell them to listen to acoustic instruments. There are all sorts of "attractive distortions" companies engineer into their components: more bass, more highs, impressive image, etc. The ONE thing you can't fake is the organic time, tune, tone, and timbre of acoustic instruments. In addition, there is harmonic coherency that allows you to hear the subtle cues in room reflections that translates to air and space. Have you ever noticed how you rarely hear them playing string quartets at audiophile shows? That's because it's too hard to reproduce acoustic music correctly.
  
 And then there is speed…
  
 This is where batteries always fall down in performance. Oh, yes, batteries have amazingly low noise/ripple, but since they’re electrical energy comes from a chemical reaction, their response time to dynamic passages in the music is much slower than a good linear power supply. The result is music that is very clean, transparent, and easy to listen to, but often lacking in micro-dynamics and somewhat off in terms of time and tune (leaning waves).
  
 Similarly, most companies that manufacture an LPS get their low noise/ripple specifications with a “static load” (fixed resistor) as opposed to a “dynamic load” (changing resistance). So their low noise spec is total BS when applied to sophisticated AC signals such as music. Though much less apparent in both wave form and sound, the slower type of IC chip regulators used in most audiophile LPS have “ringing” as well as significant rising/falling plateaus when applied to a musical signal. The result is similar to that false PRAT thing, but since it is far more subtle in intensity than running out of headroom, the distortion of the music wave is more apparent in the higher frequencies.
  
 And finally there is grounding…
  
 Grounding works the same way on any type or performance level of power supply. If your regulator is at zero ground potential it will perform as specified (easier said than done). If there are any “ground loops” or “transmission lines” in your power supply they will cause the regulator to constantly over and under react. Picture a river pouring into the ocean and the disruption it causes. Similarly grounding issues distort perfect musical waves.
  
 Actually, the biggest problem with switch-mode power supplies (SMPS) is not their level of ripple/noise - they make SMPS with ripple/noise down in the low single digit mA just like a better LPS. The problem with SMPS is they generate all of this “hash noise” that pollutes the ground on all components plugged into the same AC line. And even when they are in100% shielded inside a chassis and have completely isolated AC power, SMPS radiate noise from their power cables that pollutes your signal cables similar to EMF and RFI noise.
  
 Important note: keep your signal cables as far away from your wall warts and their cables as possible.
  
 I hope most of you found all that easy enough to understand (metaphors can be tricky)


----------



## willsw

Well, I'm way past my first page of notes.


----------



## drbluenewmexico

mojoaudio said:


> Wow!
> 
> With all those posts you don't seem like a neophyte.
> 
> ...


 

 Nice metaphorical explanation Mr Mojo!  i know the difference between basic power supplies and upgraded ones were sometimes subtle but became thunderous and WOW Level when going up to the prototype Illuminati .  for me the Joule V represented the sweet spot of
 tremendous increase in dynamics and detail and airiness without TOTL expense (especially for a traded in or demo one). The Illuminati was TOTL territory, but that comes at increasing cost....the good news is that the microZOTL2 responds well to all of the upgrades and
 as my comparative review here was titled, FEED ME...says the MicroZOTL2...
 we haven't seen the ceiling of what this technomarvel can offer our ears and brains, so an upgrade column would be great!


----------



## richard51

what a great post about power supply and noise....The importance of a good power supply i understand now more clearly.... thanks Mojoaudio... But what about all the vibration of all and each one piece of gear and their cumulative negative effect on the end result of the sound we listen... I recommend to you the thread about sorbothane...


----------



## willsw

@richard51, I think you might enjoy this photo I posted to LTA's instagram today.


----------



## richard51

Wow ! my dream gear system .... thanks very much for that one.... Do you like what you hears?
  
  i think so for sure but your words are better to me than my thoughts...what is this Stax? By the way i know for sure that this Zotl2 was one of the few thing under 2 thousand dollars ( i add the cost of a good power supply and i dream in canadian dollars) that will beat my Sansui au 7700 +sorbothane with my Stax phone...And no doubt i will sorbothanize the Zotl amplifier ....
  






willsw said:


> @richard51, I think you might enjoy this photo I posted to LTA's instagram today.


----------



## willsw

richard51 said:


>


 
  
 I love what I hear! It's probably just being new to Stax as well, but they sound so realistic, and are so pleasant to listen to. I look forward to listening to dedicated electrostatic amps (for more than a few minutes at a show) in the future and comparing that sound. I do think the MicroZOTL2 sound is helping my enjoyment of them, though I can't say how much. I had my SRD-7/SB modified to have one pro-bias and one regular-bias jack, so the headphones on the amp are Lambda Pro, and the headphones also plugged in but not shown (they're on my head) are the SR-Lambda regular bias.


----------



## lukeap69

Is that DAC-19?


----------



## willsw

lukeap69 said:


> Is that DAC-19?


 
  
 Yep, 10th Ann. NOS DAC-19. We got it last minute before AXPONA because the third DAC we were waiting for was arriving a day too late. In theory I was going to re-list it immediately, but I've come up with excuses to keep it around. It'll go up for sale after Newport (we're not taking it, I just don't have time), though - for purely financial reasons.


----------



## lukeap69

willsw said:


> Yep, 10th Ann. NOS DAC-19. We got it last minute before AXPONA because the third DAC we were waiting for was arriving a day too late. In theory I was going to re-list it immediately, but I've come up with excuses to keep it around. It'll go up for sale after Newport (we're not taking it, I just don't have time), though - for purely financial reasons.




Nice. Did it pair well with the MicroZOTL?


----------



## zachawry

mojoaudio said:


> Wow!
> 
> With all those posts you don't seem like a neophyte.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I'm most definitely a neophyte. Only been doing real hi-fi for a year or so, though I've always had the tendency. 
 I have been playing acoustic instruments for most of my life, though, so I do have an ear really tuned for timbre.
  
 Anyway, I read your great post once, but will have to go through it another couple times to aborb it. 
  
 I'm wondering, though, if the LPS counts as a "wall wart." I have mine on my desk right next to the RCA cables going from my Hugo to my MZ2. It looks so cool I didn't want to hide it under the desk....
  
 Thanks,
 Zachary


----------



## willsw

lukeap69 said:


> Nice. Did it pair well with the MicroZOTL?


 
  
 I think the setup sounds excellent. We had all NOS DACs at Axpona, and it may just be that the idea of it is appealing, but I thought they were all good pairings. I can't tell you which aspects of the sound are affected by the DAC, but I've found my current system immersive on almost any occasion that I'm just listening to music, which unfortunately doesn't happen as often as I'd like. Those occasions are usually some kind of acoustic jazz or similar, for what it's worth. We'll see what I think now of the Metrum Musette when I get to babysit the show model again after Newport. Also looking forward to hearing that next-gen Mojo DAC Ben's got up his well-embroidered sleeve.


----------



## MojoAudio

zachawry said:


> I'm most definitely a neophyte. Only been doing real hi-fi for a year or so, though I've always had the tendency.
> I have been playing acoustic instruments for most of my life, though, so I do have an ear really tuned for timbre.
> 
> Anyway, I read your great post once, but will have to go through it another couple times to aborb it.
> ...


 
  
 It is always a good idea to separate power and signal wires no matter if they are AC or DC and no matter what "class" (SMPS or LPS) your power supplies may be.
  
 It would always be a good idea to separate your power supply (LPS) from your signal cables. In a system rack you can put your DAC on one shelf/side and your LPS on another. With a desktop system you can put your DAC on the L side of your mZ2 and your LPS on the R side. Possibly even have your DAC and mZ2 on one side of your computer and your LPS on the other side or on the floor.
  
 The LPS in the new ZOTL LPS stands for "linear power supply" and it is most certainly not a wall wart.
  
 Wall warts are those small SMPS contained in a small plastic case surrounding the actual plug...you know...those stupid things that make it impossible to plug stuff in the receptacle next to it.
  
 Basically the smallest, cheapest, and most efficient power supply solution possible.
  
 The SMPS that comes with the original mZ2 is a top performer in it's class and certainly not a wall wart either. As a matter of fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the ripple/noise on the mZ2 SMPS was relatively as low as their new LPS and the only reason the LPS sounds better is that stuff I mentioned about "hash" and all the radiant noise and ground pollution that all SMPS create.
  
 Also, the ZOTL LPS may use a similar regulator and circuit to those eBay LPS boards I linked you to, but don't think that even with an upgrade those boards could perform as good as a ZOTL LPS. They are pretty much just a low-cost upgrade for whatever SMPS or wall wart you may be using.
  
 For example, if your Hugo DAC runs off of some type of small SMPS, I have no doubt you could TRANSFORM your system by powering it with a good LPS. Even one of those DIY boards from eBay would likely make a notable improvement. And most of that improvement would have to do with replacing a basic SMPS with a basic LPS.
  
 Anyone that is using some sort of SMPS or wall wart on their source could have significant gains in performance by upgrading to ANY linear power supply. Remember: you need to remove all SMPS from your AC circuit (everything on the same circuit breaker) in order to totally remove the "hash" that pollutes your system's grounding. Even one small wall wart on an external HDD or USB converter can significantly degrade your system's performance.


----------



## defbear

mojoaudio said:


> Anyone that is using some sort of SMPS or wall wart on their source could have significant gains in performance by upgrading to ANY linear power supply. Remember: you need to remove all SMPS from your AC circuit (everything on the same circuit breaker) in order to totally remove the "hash" that pollutes your system's grounding. Even one small wall wart on an external HDD or USB converter can significantly degrade your system's performance.


Does this mean we should unplug our Regen wall warts?


----------



## zachawry

mojoaudio said:


> For example, if your Hugo DAC runs off of some type of small SMPS, I have no doubt you could TRANSFORM your system by powering it with a good LPS. Even one of those DIY boards from eBay would likely make a notable improvement. And most of that improvement would have to do with replacing a basic SMPS with a basic LPS.
> 
> Anyone that is using some sort of SMPS or wall wart on their source could have significant gains in performance by upgrading to ANY linear power supply. Remember: you need to remove all SMPS from your AC circuit (everything on the same circuit breaker) in order to totally remove the "hash" that pollutes your system's grounding. Even one small wall wart on an external HDD or USB converter can significantly degrade your system's performance.


 
  
 Turns out the Hugo fundamentally runs on battery power, and all plugging it in does is trickle-charge the battery. 
  
 I took my LPS off my desk. I think my system sounds better now, but it could be placebo effect and I'm too lazy to really A/B it. 
  
 From your last paragraph, however...If I have my Macbook Pro plugged into the same power strip as my MZ2, would even that affect the system grounding? 
  
 (I never would have given this stuff any credence anyway as recently as a few weeks ago, when I had to wipe the smile off my face from the difference the LPS made.)


----------



## MojoAudio

defbear said:


> Does this mean we should unplug our Regen wall warts?


 
  
 YES...I can't think of any place in your system you would most want to unplug your wall wart.
  
 Like I always say: "If it doesn't come from your source it can't come out of your speakers/headphones."
  
 Let that be your anti-audiophile voodoo mantra 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 So if there was any place an good power supply would improve your system it would be there.
 But don't even get me started on those "magic boxes" to reclock or regen or regurgitate your USB signal in general 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 (Too late...I feet a rant coming on)
  
 I have to respect their marketing: somehow these companies that make "magic boxes" have convinced the audiophile world that up is down,  black is white, and the rules of physics don't apply.
  
 Please everyone, tell me how insane this all sounds when someone with a small bit of technical expertise re-frames the "magic box" theory with a bit of logic.
  
 Here comes the logic...
  
 All audiophile USB devices work the same: they have an input receiver chip, clocks, an output driver chip, and power supplies.
 Sorry...there is nothing out there made from magic chips or clocks that can bend the rules of space and time 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 All a "regenerator" or a "reclocker" is in fact is an asynchronous USB input/converter. Period.
  
 Some convert from USB to USB...some from USB to S/PDIF...some from USB to I2S...often the same chip does it all.
  
 The EXACT same type of chips, clocks, and power supplies are used on the input stage of all DACs.
  
 Yes, all DACs.
  
 So all things being equal, how would it be possible to add additional components and cables between a computer and a DAC that could improve the sound?
  
 There are only two ways: your computer is polluting your entire system with dirty USB buss power and/or your DAC has a mediocre input stage with poor isolation, poor clocking, and/or poor power supplies.
  
 According to logic, could there be another answer?
  
 If the parts and circuit at the input stage of your DAC was equal in quality to the parts and circuit in your magic box it would sound worse when you add a redundant external USB device, not better. Sort of like when you use a cheap $10 cable splitter, extender, or adapter with good interconnects: it may sound close but always subtly less than without.
  
 If one of these magic boxes improves the sound coming from a proper computer server (I'll get into that later) all that means is the company that made your DAC used a crap USB input stage. Those cheap USB stages have bad power supplies, bad clocks, and bad isolation, but use identical circuits and identical USB receiver chips as the finest DACs in the world.
  
 So what about all that noise from the USB buss on your computer?
  
 The companies that make those V style USB cables with signal and power separated have the right idea. If your computer source has noisy USB buss power (any laptop) you can isolate your DAC from that noise and provide good, clean, +5V from a battery or small linear power supply. If the USB output stage on your computer is noisy, but your DAC has a proper USB input stage, a cable that isolates your buss power would sound as good or better than one of those magic boxes.
  
 As long as I'm ranting about digital audiophile voodoo, I might as well get into what makes a proper server.
  
 Did anyone guess?
  
 POWER SUPPLY!
  
 Yes, the better and more isolated your power supplies for each component the better the server.
  
 In addition to that, you need a dedicated PCIe USB card, such as a SoTM, JCAT, or Paul Pang.
  
 These cards actually take the music data from the computer's "super highway" PCI buss, isolate the power supply, and use excellent quality USB sending chips and clocks. Yes, before the data is corrupted, these dedicated USB cards perform the same function as those magic boxes, only better.
  
 You don't have to spend a pile of $$$ for a proper audiophile server...roughly what you would need to spend for a decent laptop.
  
 Here's a link to one of my competitor's that makes a very high value server:
  
http://shop.smallgreencomputer.com/Computer-Audiophile-Pocket-Server_c5.htm
  
 For the DIYers out there, here's the "how to" on Computer Audiophile:
  
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/497-computer-audiophile-pocket-server-c-p-s-v3-zuma/
  
 I would recommend replacing the battery from the original ZUMA recipe with that modest priced HD Plex LPS The Small Green Computer guys are using. That HD Plex LPS has multiple voltages to power every card, board, and drive in the sever chassis independently.
  
 It even has a spare 12V output for an external drive, DAC, or USB device (did you guys with the Hugo DACs read that?).
  
http://www.hd-plex.com/HDPLEX-Fanless-Linear-Power-Supply-for-PC-Audio-and-CE-device.html
  
 And if you got this larger HD Plex power supply you could power BOTH your computer server AND your mZ2 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
http://www.hd-plex.com/HDPLEX-Fanless-300W-ATX-Linear-Power-Supply-with-Modular-ATX-Output.html
  
 And if you have deeper pockets and want about 20% more performance from your computer server and headphone amp you can contact me off forum and I could recommend a better power supply and a few more tricks to squeeze that last little bit out from your favorite digital music 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Bottom line is that if you want to get all your mZ2 is capable of delivering you need to have a balanced system. Most people I know spend too much on their headphones and not nearly enough on their source.
  
 This statement holds true of ANY audio component: you can never get back something you lost in an earlier stage.
  
 If anywhere between your source and your speakers/headphones you have a weak link in your audio chain the resolution of your system is now limited by whatever that cable or component may be.
  
 Anyone telling you otherwise is selling VOODOO.
  
 Some balanced system recommendations:
  
 If you have an mZ2  and DAC/headphones that each sell for over $1,000 I would recommend upgrading to the ZOTL LPS.
  
 If you have an mZ2 and DAC/headphones that each sell for over $2,000 than I would recommend upgrading to a proper computer server and the ZOTL LPS. That system would most certainly appreciate a better PSU than the ZOTL LPS for your mZ2.
  
 If you have an mZ2 and DAC/headphones that each sell for over $3,000 then I would most certainly recommend a proper server with a better PSU than the HD Plex and the best PSU you can find for your mZ2.
  
 With all of the above should go proportionally upgraded USB cables and interconnects.
  
 If you didn't spend at least 2/3 as much on your source components as your headphones your system is out of balance and you are not getting nearly all the performance you can get from your mZ2. All you're doing is amplifying distortion and noise that your beloved headphones are now allowing you to hear more clearly than ever.
  
 Seriously: does it make sense to any of you to have a $1,000 turntable with a $1,000 cartridge and a $5,000 phono preamp?
  
 If not, then it doesn't make sense to have a cheap server and a magic box as the source for any decent DAC or to have headphones that cost more than your DAC and mZ2 power supply combined. Unless of course you love to listen to distortion.
  
 Similarly, if you have a high-end source and high-end headphones it doesn't make sense to limit your mZ2 based with a power supply that is not up with the rest of your system.
  
 End of ranting


----------



## MojoAudio

zachawry said:


> Turns out the Hugo fundamentally runs on battery power, and all plugging it in does is trickle-charge the battery.
> 
> I took my LPS off my desk. I think my system sounds better now, but it could be placebo effect and I'm too lazy to really A/B it.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I can't put this any plainer: get rid of all the SMPS and wall warts in your system and replace them with any battery or linear power supply.
  
 It doesn't matter if it has a "trickle charger" or mostly runs on batteries - that SMPS/wall wart is polluting your entire system's grounding to some extent.


----------



## defbear

mojoaudio said:


> YES...I can't think of any place in your system you would most want to unplug your wall wart.
> 
> Like I always say: "If it doesn't come from your source it can't come out of your speakers/headphones."
> 
> ...



That's what I thought you would say  

The Regen did zip for my system. I'm running late 2013 MacBook Pro into a BiFrost Multibit into the MZL. I bought the Intona 'industrial strength' version USB reclocker box. Runs off USB power. It made a noticeable improvement. Wider soundstage, bass, detail and buzzwords. Same with my Master11. Heavens to Murgatroid! I'm flabbergasted. Especially after reading your posts.


----------



## MojoAudio

defbear said:


>


 
  
 I hope I made sense.
  
 The reason these companies can sell their magic boxes is that there are SO many audiophiles attached to the convenience of their laptops.
  
 Simple...easy...compact...attractive.
  
 But there are also so many cost competitive solutions to a laptop that are much higher performance. Another high-value and high-performance server that will outperform any laptop can be DIYed with a Raspberry Pi and a few of those eBay power supplies for under $500.
  
https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2015/05/23/review-raspberry-pi-2-as-music-streamer/
  
 Think about this...
  
 Any >$1,000 DAC from a company that doesn't have a USB input stage equal to a $300 magic box would make me suspect of their other circuitry.
  
 Most DAC manufacturers use other companies USB technology - they buy a USB input board from a specialty company. These boards cost $25-$100 each and can be powered by anything from the dirty USB buss power to several independent power supplies that isolate every stage.
  
 Companies that cheap out buy the USB buss powered $25 board and still brag about having32-bit 384KHz resolution (LOL!).
  
 Dr. Blue was one of the local audiophile that did some blind USB board comparisons for me this past winter. I used the same prototype DAC and the same power supplies, but then plugged different USB boards from different manufacturers in and out to learn if there was any consistent preference among my test listeners. For example, the same group of blind listeners compared DAC chips prior to the USB boards and they agreed 100%. I actually won a bet with my head tech Frank who said no one could consistently tell the difference between Analog Devices and Burr-Brow's best NOS 20-bit R-2R DAC chips.
  
 But back to USB boards...
  
 With everything as equal as possible, and even several of the boards using the EXACT same brands of chips and clocks, the difference in the sound quality of these supposedly bit perfect 32-bit 384KHz USB boards blew all of our minds.
  
 There was significantly more sonic differences between the USB boards than the DAC chips (seriously).
  
 If I blindfolded everyone and told them I was switching between different brands of speakers or headphones everyone would have easily believed me.
  
 If you think I'm exaggerating ask Dr. Blue. The first time I did a blind USB switch on him he couldn't believe he was listening to the same headphones.
  
 BTW, we did those blind listening tests on DAC chips, op amps, and USB boards on my upgraded mZ2 and my upgraded HD800s as well as using my mZ2 as the system preamp playing through my highly modified Maggies. Yes, the mZ2 can be THAT resolving. I honestly couldn't have done my DAC prototyping this year without my mZ2


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## richard51

Your posts are marvellously informative , thank you for your precious time , a pleasure to read....I just want to give my personal observation but with humility because i know nothing about engineering and serious audio, i am just the guy next door who try to buy the best at not too high price for modest audiophile experience...
  
 I have recently experiment with sorbothane and  i have discover that any piece of gear vibrate, interact, and put noise in the gear chain...Little by little i had try to put sorbothane in all and every one piece of gear from the power conditioner to the headphone with great results and the astonishing discovery that ALL gear introduce noise ( not only from a bad power supply and a bad usb port but by the presence of their  resonant and all vibrating part) and this without consideration of price, one way to remedy this problem for me was to put the right sorbothane duro, if possible with a compression device or load in  every one and each piece of my gear...For the cost the improvement seems to me extraordinary... My  neophyte question to the  specialist in the art  of audio:  are audio specialist   concious of this vibration plague in all piece of audio gear ? If so what are the solution ? sorbothane is one for me and very good one solution they are perhaps others ...thanks for all your dedication, time and generosity  ...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 p.s. My first act when i will buy the zotl +psu  for my Stax  headphone will be to put some heavy load on top of the 2 gear with sorbothane under  them and in my experience this will be a great upgrade ...


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## MojoAudio

richard51 said:


> Your posts are marvellously informative , thank you for your precious time , a pleasure to read....I just want to give my personal observation but with humility because i know nothing about engineering and serious audio, i am just the guy next door who try to buy the best at not too high price for modest audiophile experience...I have recently experiment with sorbothane and  i have discover that any piece of gear vibrate, interact, and put noise in the gear chain...Little by little i had try to put sorbothane in all and every one piece of gear from the power conditioner to the headphone with great results and the astonishing discovery that ALL gear introduce noise ( not only from a bad power supply and a bad usb port but by the presence of their  resonant and all vibrating part)without consideration of price, one way to remedy this problem for me was to put the right sorbothane duro, if possible with a compression device or load in  every one and each piece of my gear...For the cost the improvement seems to me extraordinary... My  neophyte question to the  specialist in the art  of audio:  are audio specialist   concious of this vibration plague in all piece of audio gear ? If so what are the solution ? sorbothane is one for me and very good one solution they are perhaps others ...thanks for all your dedication, time and generosity ...


 
  
 OK...you asked for it.
  
 First thing you need to understand is how mechanical vibration translates into "noise" in an audio component.
  
 What happens is the micro-vibrations on each part cause micro-voltages to be generated.
  
 Different parts have different resonance frequencies as well as different electrical intensities and different electrical patterns.
  
 Now think about that: depending on what type of music you listen to, and what volume you listen to it at, different component parts in your system will produce distortion in various patterns that give the effect of more/less bass/highs, more/less air/image, or more/less tone/texture/timbre.
  
 Keep in mind that all of those are FALSE - an attractive distortion caused by imperfect vibration control.
  
 So now you can understand how you could use different anti-resonance products under different components and get different sonic signatures. Each product dampens vibrations in different frequency ranges more effectively resulting in different parts in the gear producing different patterns of electrical distortion.
  
 Blows my mind 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 What that translates to is there is no "one size fits all" or in your case, no one product such as Sorbothane, that can fix all vibration issues.
  
 Don't get me wrong...I use Sorbothane feet on all my entry level components and I would recommend that my customers mass load my products if they can.
  
 Before I started to offer Stillpoints Ultra Minis as an upgrade to the Sorbothane feet we've been using for almost a decade I did more of those blind listening tests with local audiophiles.
  
 I asked them to bring over their favorite anti-resonant products and we compared them on a DAC and server. Here is what we learned:
  
 The $2.40/set EAR Sorbothane feet I've been using for years sounded better than 90% of the expensive feet we compared.
  
 A set of exotic wooden cones like the ones below that sell for >$20/set beat almost any product we compared for up to $500.
  
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ebony-Audio-feet-Cone-Amp-CDP-Turntable-feet-base-Isolator-High-end-audio-/121975555057?hash=item1c664f43f1:g:K~kAAOSwv0tVFU2U
  
http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/equipment-supports/334-oak-cone-feet-set-of-3.html
  
 These are the wooden cones I have that have been blowing audiophile's minds for years...
  
http://www.ebay.com/itm/nws04-4x-30mm-Wood-Speaker-Spike-Isolation-Feet-Stand-Cone-Turntable-Amp-HiFi-/301291296022?hash=item46265c5516
  
 There are some great high-value products made by Herbies Audio Lab that are sort of like a more sophisticated Sorbothane we all liked better than Sorbothane. Originally I used Herbie's feet on our power supplies but we found their adhesive would keep coming off so we switched to the screw mounted Sorbothane feet we currently use. If you handle them gently I would recommend most of Herbie's products.
  
http://herbiesaudiolab.net/compfeet.htm
  
 And the winner and all time champion of all the feet we compared were the Stillpoints Ultra Minis. I've had customers upgrade the Sorbothane feet on their DAC to these Stillpoints and love them so much they special ordered more sets for other components in their system. I've never found anything better.
  
http://www.stillpoints.us/index.php/product/ultra/98-ultra-mini#!ultra_group
  
 Stillpoints also makes a Sorbothane circuit board mount that is very effective. With my next gen DAC I'm planning another one of those blind listening tests with several different industrial, aerospace, and audiophile anti-resonant PCB stand offs. My guess is that Stillpoints is buying these from some aerospace manufacturer and re-branding them, but I have no evidence. Companies that specialize in hardware like McMaster-Carr have industrial versions of these PCB standoffs.
  
http://www.stillpoints.us/index.php/product/oem/261-oem-stand-off
  
 And then there are "sticky sheet" products that were developed by the US Navy for submarine noise reduction (seriously) that are now most commonly used in car stereo installations to minimize the resonance in metal car panels. These products are excellent at dampening chassis resonance.
  
http://www.b-quiet.com/collections/all
  
 I plan on using some of this as part of my mZ2 upgrades. I would recommend putting a strip of the "B-Quiet Extreme" on the solid part of the L side, R side, and bottom, as well as fit pieces over as much of the inside of face and rear of the mZ2 as you can fit.
  
 I would also recommend replacing the feet on the mZ2 with either those EAR Sorbothane feet, a Herbie's product, or Stillpoints Ultra Minis ($10-$320), as well as some type of PCB anti-resonance stand off ($10-$100). A mass loading weight on top of the mZ2 would also help as well as tube dampeners such as these (order by size):
  
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=audiophile+silicone+tube+dampeners&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xaudiophile+silicone+tube+dampers.TRS0&_nkw=audiophile+silicone+tube+dampers&_sacat=0
  
 There you all go: a perfect upgrade for the mZ2 that requires little technical expertise and common household tools 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Did you notice that my recommended mZ2 anti-resonance upgrade used a variety of different materials applied to different locations?
  
 So some Sorbothane could be used, but Sorbothane is not the best and definitely not the only answer.
  
 Another thing to know about Sorbothane or any other "gooey" audiophile anti-resonant feet product is that they all come in different values called "durometer. "  This value determines the compression weight of the soft polymer product. Depending on the specific resonance frequency and weight of your component would depend on what durometer Sorbothane would best dampen your chassis.
  
 So even with Sorbothane there is not one specific answer.
  
 Similarly, depending on the resonance frequency of your component's chassis, and depending on the durometer of your Sorbothane, you would want to use a different amount of mass loading.
  
 The reason Herbie's products are so good is that he engineered Sorbothane like products with resonance frequencies more optimal for audio components. I believe he has some detailed explanations on his website.
  
 So now that I have you all totally confused, what should you do?
  
 There are two ways to go:
  
 Get insanely expensive sonic generator and vibration measuring equipment to test every component in your system so you can apply perfectly tuned anti-resonance products.
  
 OR
  
 Learn some of the basic theories about the different anti-resonant products (soft feet, B-Quiet sheets, cones, spikes, decoupling balls (like Stillpoints), PCB stand offs, tube dampeners, etc), buy an assortment, and test them in various combinations on your equipment. I have a whole divided plastic hobby/hardware case full of the stuff.
  
 Eventually you'll find some combinations that work best for you with different types of components.
  
 I guess I shouldn't mention that I could give you all similar info on electrical shielding, grounding, and isolation?
  
 Another day.
 I'm going to pick out a recording I haven't listened to in a long time and have an ear-gasm listening to it for the first time on my Stax Omegas


----------



## richard51

thanks for your detailed response and expertise.... i will digest all that ....I dont think either  that sorbothane is the one absolute solution...But my point is this is one not costly step.... And after many experience with all duro i settle for *70 duro* compressed with great benefit for my speakers and power conditioner and dac..By the way i have observe that without compression and with the wrong duro the results are mediocre or not so great. But with compression the results go on in the same direction, better imaging etc... My point is compression of 70 duro is the better way with sorb..Herbies sorbothane feet are of which duro? and are they compressed to act to their potential damping function?
  
 I am interested by the wooden cone for my amp...
  
 I will wait for your future posts and expertise and explanation about resonance and micro voltages....I thank you very much for your passion and time really and these many information products...We are lucky to have you here  You are an amazing guy


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## lukeap69

Thanks @MojoAudio. Very informative. Those wooden feet, you just put them under the unit without screw or adhesive, isn't it?


----------



## MojoAudio

richard51 said:


> thanks for your detailed response and expertise.... i will digest all that ....I dont think either  that sorbothane is the one absolute solution...But my point is this is one not costly step.... And after many experience with all duro i settle for *70 duro* compressed with great benefit for my speakers and power conditioner and dac..By the way i have observe that without compression and with the wrong duro the results are mediocre or not so great. But with compression the results go on in the same direction, better imaging etc... My point is compression of 70 duro is the better way with sorb..Herbies sorbothane feet are of which duro? and are they compressed to act to their potential damping function?
> 
> I am interested by the wooden cone for my amp...
> 
> I will wait for your future posts and expertise and explanation about resonance and micro voltages....I thank you very much for your passion and time really and these many information products...We are lucky to have you here  You are an amazing guy


 
  
 No worries.
  
 I just hate to see hard working music lovers getting ripped off by all the snake oil peddlers.
  
 I've have a blog I call "Audiofiles" dedicated to shattering audiophile myths and offering high-value tips and tricks:
  
https://mojoaudiofiles.wordpress.com/
  
 Yea, yea...I know Audiogon has something they call "Audio-Files" but I had the name years before them 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I was already planning to write blogs on resonance control, USB technology myths, and the importance of power supplies.
  
 You could say some my recent posts are rough drafts for blogs I was already planing on writing 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Two of my digital myth buster blogs I would highly recommend are these:
  
https://mojoaudiofiles.wordpress.com/the-24-bit-delusion/
  
https://mojoaudiofiles.wordpress.com/dsd-vs-pcm-myth-vs-truth/
  
 Those two blogs are somewhat controversial, 180 degrees from what most companies would have you believe, and 100% supported by my many reference white papers written by well known audio recording engineers and companies that manufacture equipment used in state-of-the-art recording studios.
  
 A real ear opener


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## MojoAudio

lukeap69 said:


> Thanks @MojoAudio. Very informative. Those wooden feet, you just put them under the unit without screw or adhesive, isn't it?


 
  
 Yea, those wooden feet are da' bomb when it comes to high-value audiophile anti-resonance cones.
  
 You can face them cone up and use the the screw heads in your component's feet or vent holes to make them stable (your component can't slide off).
  
 You can add a Herbie's "Grunge Buster" adhesive disk the same diameter as the wooden cones under them to improve them even more.
  
 Or you can face them point down and use a 2-sided tape to hold them to the bottom of your component.
  
 These $20 wooden cones were the #2 favorite over the years only beaten by one ceramic cone product that sells for about $350/set and the Stillpoints Ultra Minis that sell for $500/set.
  
 You know that CC commercial:
  
 Set of 4 wooden cones from eBay, $19.95.
  
 Set of 4 Herbie's Grunge Busters, $10.
 Look on your audiophile friends faces when it outperforms their >$500 audiophile anti-resonant product, PRICELESS


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## jamato8

mojoaudio said:


> No worries.
> 
> I just hate to see hard working music lovers getting ripped off by all the snake oil peddlers.
> 
> ...


 

 Interesting article but it has also been shown that you don't really get 16 bit you get less. So if you get less than 16 bit then you aren't getting what is purported to be the possibilities of the format. Move it higher and you might be getting 16 bit but hopefully, at least 16 bit and a little cushion is always nice.


----------



## MojoAudio

jamato8 said:


> Interesting article but it has also been shown that you don't really get 16 bit you get less. So if you get less than 16 bit then you aren't getting what is purported to be the possibilities of the format. Move it higher and you might be getting 16 bit but hopefully, at least 16 bit and a little cushion is always nice.


 
  
 Sorry to inform most of you, but the Emperor is naked 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 The noise in the power supplies of most DACs that sell for under $3K are higher than the resolution of 16-bits.
  
 That means even if you play a 24-bit recording and your USB and DAC chips claim 24-bit and 192KHz resolution, that most DACs selling for under $3K have ripple/noise in the power supply that is above the voltage of the 13th bit, so it will mask all bits above that. Yes, you read that correctly.
  
 Consider the sound of your favorite 24-bit song played on a high-value digital source.
  
 Consider the sound of your favorite 24-bit song played on the best digital source you've ever experienced.
  
 What would you say the difference in resolution would be between them?
  
 Odd how both claimed 24-bit 192KHz resolution 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 So how many bits of ACTUAL resolution would you think the best high-value DACs actually have if the super DACs could have had no more than 24-bits?
  
 There are a significant number of highly regarded DACs out there that claim 24-bit 192KHz (or better) resolution and actually deliver less than 12-bits from their output.
  
 Actually most 16-bit recordings use less than 16-bits. They "pad" most-significant-bits under less than 8-bits of actual dynamic range (plays loud with <50db dynamic range).
  
 Actually most 24-bit recordings use less than 20-bits. They "pad" most-significant-bits under less than 12-bits of actual dynamic range and add a top "pad" of zeros for the least-significant-bits (plays loud with <70db dynamic range).
  
 But what does that matter....
  
 Less than 5% of audiophile systems in the world are capable of playing 100db of dynamic range if there was someone foolish enough to release a recording at that level 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Numbers sell.
  
 High numbers sell more.
 And specifications in the audiophile industry are like bikinis: the important things are not what the reveal, but what they cover up


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## doctorjazz

Been reading through Ben's AudioFiles...definitely not mainstream opinions (which I already knew), but a very interesting read indeed!


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## MojoAudio

doctorjazz said:


> Been reading through Ben's AudioFiles...definitely not mainstream opinions (which I already knew), but a very interesting read indeed!


 
  
 I certainly welcome any opposing opinions on digital audio theory in the form of screen shots from oscilloscopes and sound pressure meters


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## drbluenewmexico

Ben's observations of the effects of different materials and parts and vibration solutions have been
 personally experienced by me in his laboratory. His systems , both the speakers (Maggies) and the
 headphones (Senn 800s and Stax) driven by the ZOTL2 and his custom STAX circuits, are hallucinatory.
 They convey the musical information and emotional communication of the music better than anything
 i have heard outside of live concerts that i produce and attend. sometimes better. He is not just trying
 to be "right" , he puts his money where his ideas and research are and creates products and systems
 that truly reveal the signal from the noise. I was convinced that nothing could match analogue vinyl
 systems till i heard Mojo-labs reference systems in his labs.....he is a mad scientist, or should be say
 obsessed audio engineer, focused on the realities what really conveys the magic in music.....
 Thanks for sharing more of your technical information on this thread, Mojo!


----------



## MojoAudio

But back to the topic of the mZ2...
  
*mZ2 upgrade anyone?*
  
 I've been getting so many emails off thread for mZ2 upgrades, so here you go...
  
 I talked things over with Dr. Blue and we're going to do a comparison of upgrades where my mZ2 gets totally stripped down and premium parts and Dr. Blue's mZ2 gets upgraded with the highest value parts. Likely Dr. Blue won't want me to strip his mZ2 down as far as mine.
  
 Then Dr. Blue is going to compare each upgrades, from stock to high-value to insane, and do reviews all along the way.
  
 After Dr. Blue, the fully upgraded mZ2 and first production Illuminati power supply will be going to Dr. Jazz and Kevin Heine to review for different headphone magazines. Then this insanely upgraded mZ2 will be at RMAF.  After that I may put it "on tour" to any of the Head-Fi group that want an in home audition.
  
 If you want to get in on this DIY party, you'll need the following tools (come to the dark side...we have cookies):
  
 1. Soldering gun, soldering gun cleaner, flux, and solder.
 2. De-soldering gun and de-soldering tools.
 3. Wire cutter and wire stripper...could be one tool.
 4. Needle-nosed pliers...smooth if possible.
 5. Medium point Philips head screwdriver.
 6. 7/64" Allen head driver to open the top of mZ2.
 7. 5/64" All head driver for volume knob and 1/4" jack)
 8. 17mm open end wrench for the inside nut one the power switch
 9. 11mm open end wrench for the Alps attenuator and binding posts.
 10. 5/16" open end wrench for the input selector switch.
 11. 13mm open end wrench for the RCA jacks.
  
 Well, that's all I can think of for now...I have no doubt something else will come up...it always does 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Keep in mind that those are the wrenches I had that seemed to fit - for all I know your mZ2 uses slightly different parts (I've heard there are a few incarnations). I'm sure you get the idea: you need a set of both metric and English open end wrenches.
  
 A basic principle of upgrading performance of any component: "less is more."
  
 First I'm going to show you how to strip unused features, such as the binding posts, second input, and power switch, as well as separating and isolating the input(s) from the outputs and the signal from the power.
  
 This is a no cost upgrade.
  

  
 Here is a photo of my mZ2 with the top and face plate removed.
  
 In order to do a proper job of simplifying the wiring you need to remove the face plate and remove the connector, button, switch, and attenuator, to gain access to the wiring. You also may want to remove the locking nuts from the RCAs and binding posts to get better access when soldering/de-soldering wires from them.
  
 Note that my mZ2 is sitting on a piece of soft thin foam...a 100% cotton towel is also good.
  
 Notice my removed parts are organized into zip bags. I find these better protection if you are clumsy or have children and/or cats.
  
  
*Parts you can order today for upgrades I'll cover next week. *
  
 One of the biggest bottle necks in your mZ2 is the Alps Blue attenuator.
  
 I'll be spending about $175 on a Goldpoint stepped attenuator.
  
http://goldpt.com/
  
 If I had only $175 to spend upgrading my mZ2 I would spend it on this stepped attenuator - yes it is THAT good.
  
 The stock mZ2 has a 50K ohm Alps Blue conductive plastic element attenuator...let's call it Toyota level performance (best value) .
  
 Just for perspective, you can buy a similar Alps Blue attenuator on eBay for about $20. 
  
 I happen to have a 10K ohm TKD conductive plastic element attenuator in my spare parts bin..almost identical in construction to the stock Alps Blue...let's call it Lexus level performance (better performance - good value).
  
 I'm going to install that TKD attenuator in Dr. Blue's mZ2 so that he can compare it to the significantly more expensive Goldpoint.
  
 I paid about $50 for that TKD attenuator and I almost fell off my chair when I saw the latest price online was $85!
  
 Certainly a bit less of a value, but roughly half way in price between the stock Alps Blue and the Goldpoint.
  
 It will be interesting next week when Dr. Blue compares them 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Here's a couple of my favorite places to get connectors, wire, attenuators, and small amounts of shrink, braided coverings, and shielding.
  
 Mike Percy usually has good prices, he is very helpful and knowledgeable, but his website is just a page with a downloadable PDF catalog. You have to copy/paste the model numbers from his PDF catalog into an email and he sends you a PDF invoice you can pay with PayPal or CC. Not too user friendly, but Mike has some of the best exotic parts that few others carry and among the lowest prices you'll find. You can also trust his opinion - he does this stuff and knows first hand how this part performs vs. that one.
  
http://percyaudio.com/
  
 VH Audio is my other favorite. I could say the same things about Chris Van Haus as I did about Mike Percy and more. Chris has several great "recipes" on his website for things like high-value DIY interconnects and power cables.
  
http://www.vhaudio.com/
  
 Both Mike and Chris sell some of the exact brands and parts but each has their specialty parts.
  
 For example, I'm going to rewire my mZ2 with VH Audio's 24AWG UniCrystal OCC high-purity silver wire in cotton insulation that is $8.99/foot. I'm going to end up spending over $100 on the hook up wire alone.
  
 Both Mike and Chris have quite an assortment of wire at all different price points that you can use.
  
 Here's a link to some high quality mil spec or aerospace surplus silver plated copper Teflon covered wire on eBay that is the high-value wire upgrade option.
  
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xsilver+plated+mil+spec+wire.TRS0&_nkw=silver+plated+mil+spec+wire&_sacat=0
  
 Now comes the question of "what value" attenuator?
  
 Most common in the audiophile industry is a 100K ohm attenuator so that nearly any source will have decent bass.
  
 Of course the higher the value the more veiled and distorted the sound due to something called "Miller Effect."
  
 I normally use a 10K ohm attenuator, but I know that whatever DAC I'm using has a strong enough output stage to drive such a low impedance. You can't go wrong with a 50K like the stock mZ2 comes with. 
  
 As for connectors, I'm a Furutech fan.
  
 The stock mZ2 comes with what appears to be some rather high-quality CMC gold plated machined copper RCAs and binding posts. I consider these to be a very high-value connector and I would not recommend upgrading them unless you've already decided to put in some expensive hook up wire and an expensive attenuator.
  
 I would consider Cardas to be a bit better than the stock CMC - possibly not worth spending the $$$.
  
 I would consider Furutech, XHadow, and Eichmann to be notably better  than the stock CMC RCAs and binding posts (and considerably more expensive).
  
 I wouldn't recommend upgrading to any of these premium connectors unless you also got the Goldpoint or a similar premium stepped attenuator. Don't fall for those cheap stepped attenuators on eBay - you can't get a decent stepped attenuator for much less than about $100 in parts.
  
 Another important thing is the size of your attenuator - I know both the TKD and Goldpoint will fit comfortably inside the mZ2 chassis. Some of these large stepped attenuators and motorized attenuators can be quite large and might not fit. Also motorized and remote controlled stepped attenuators always have slightly lower performance than similar manual ones. Power = noise.
  
 So get your tools together...get your parts lists together...order some of the parts.
  
 Tomorrow I'll be stripping down my mZ2 with that "no cost" upgrade and giving it to Dr. Blue to find out if he can hear any difference between the stripped and stock mZ2. Next week when my attenuator arrives I'll be upgrading the attenuators on both mZ2 and giving them to Dr. Blue to review.
  
 More to come


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## claud W

So, after all the research, are you going to offer MZ2 upgrades by MoJo Audio for those of us less handy with tools?


----------



## doctorjazz

mojoaudio said:


> But back to the topic of the mZ2...
> 
> *[COLOR=FF0000]mZ2 upgrade anyone?[/COLOR]*
> 
> ...




Man, Ben, this thread is getting really interesting since you jumped aboard. I can't wait to hear about the upgraded and audition the upgraded ZOTL!


----------



## drbluenewmexico

Mad scientist or obsessed audio engineer or both? Ha.....the quest for theRapy Grail of sound continues!!!!


----------



## jamato8

I have used Goldpoint attenuators by Arn for years. Great stuff. DACT copies what he does. Too bad Arn couldn't have patented his control originally. I have used dead soft silver for over 20 years and it is my preference for any type of wiring.


----------



## MojoAudio

Good morning everyone.
  
 I was up last night until about midnight doing that first upgrade post.
  
 I promised myself that I wasn't going to get back to it until I got some other work done today, but I've been waiting over a year to do these upgrades to my mZ2...I'm all stoked 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 So I'm getting back to it this morning and I'll likely drop this mZ2 over at Dr. Blue's house when I'm running errands later this afternoon.
  
 Before I go any further, I want to make a few things crystal clear:
  
 These upgrades should only be attempted by people with proper skills and tools.
  
 Benjamin Zwickel, Mojo Audio Inc, Linear Tube Audio, and my cat Rufus are in no way responsible for any damage that may occur to you, your mZ2, people, pets, plants, surrounding municipalities, or Universe as we know it, should you attempt to do any of the upgrades.
  
 And most importantly, the stock mZ2 is an INCREDIBLE versatile high-value product. The parts choices and construction methods Mark used when engineering the mZ2 are sheer genius, in that Mark was able to sell a headphone amp of this level of performance for only $1,100. Think about it: the original mZ sold for about the same price how many years ago? If you factor in inflation, you would think LTA would have to sell the mZ2 for over $2,000 today.
  
 The next thing I want to point out is that there are concerns manufacturers all have with CE and UL listing, insurable safety features (negligence), durability, and so on, that the "upgrader" doesn't have to concern themselves with. For example, the high-temperature wire used in a stock mZ2 is far more durable than the cotton covered wire I want to use. I'm not worried that I may have to replace my wire in 5 years because the heat inside the mZ2 degraded the cotton covering. Where as the stock wire in your mZ2 will likely last for decades with little or no sign of degradation.
  
 And the last point I want to make is that what I'm going to be showing you is not rocket surgery - you don't think Mark knows most of this stuff?
  
 Today I'll show you how to "strip down" your mZ2 and remove unused features. This could be compared to stripping down a car to give it better performance. What would happen if you removed the spare tire, back seat, passenger seat, door windows, door mechanisms, interior liner, carpeting, dash board, inner door panels, and and anything else that weighed anything that you're not using from a car?
  
 Less weight = higher performance.
  
*With this first no-cost upgrade I'll show you how to turn your mZ2 into a "stock car" and maximizing it's performance by minimizing it's options.*
  
 But keep this in mind: the higher the performance of your source, headphones, cables, and power supply, the more of an improvement you'll hear from each of these upgrades.
  
 That is partly why I'm doing two levels of upgrades and letting Dr. Blue compare them (high-value and high-performance). He'll also be able to compare them on a medium performance power supply, similar in performance to the ZOTL LPS, as well as a higher performance power supply that costs two times (our Joule v5) and three times (our new Illuminati) as much as the ZOTL LPS.
  
 In all truth, I have no idea what upgrades are going to be audible on what system (this is going to be fun).
  
 I don't want any of you wasting your $$$ on upgrades you won't appreciate.
  
 So start here before you do any of the following upgrades that require a soldering gun:
  
 1. Upgrade your the power supply on your mZ2 to at least a ZOTL LPS.
 2. Upgrade the anti-resonance on your mZ2 as described in my earlier post (I'll cover it in more detail in a later post).
 3. Upgrade the tubes in your mZ2 (Dr. Blue with have a posting on that in the next week or so).
  
 I'm going to loan Dr. Blue my collection of famous 6SN7 NOS tube variants for him to review. I have anything from RCA "Red Base" 5692s to a couple of pairs of Sylvania "Chrome Tops" to the famous Ken-Rad "Smoked Glass." I'm even going to give him a surprise pair of tubes for the input stage on the mZ2 that is not the same type as the stock tube.
 I think you're all going to like what Dr. Blue has to write about the way these whose who NOS tubes sound 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 But all of that has to wait a week or three. This week end Dr. Blue is having one of his famous "3-Sided Hole" music festivals. Dr. Blue has a huge bit of un-developed land on an ancient Native power site (meridians or some such). Every year Dr. Blue holds ABQ's equivalent of Burning Man.
  
 Seriously...likely today he's organizing the set up of the stage, lighting, and amplification. The live music goes on nearly 24/7 for DAYS with drum circles, Pagan rituals, and alien abductions, in an atmosphere of Universal cooperation, spiritual enlightenment, artistic appreciation, and general deviant hedonistic debauchery.
 What more could you ask for? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I believe Bo Diddly's grandson will be playing his grand dad's classic songs on Saturday 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Point being, I doubt Dr. Blue will have much listening time for about a week, and there is always the distinctive possibility that he may misunderstand his spirit guide's instructions and could end up being abducted by aliens. Stranger things have happened at a Dr. Blue party.
  
 Enough disclaimers and explanations...in my next post I'll get down to showing you how to turn your mZ2 into a stock car.


----------



## doctorjazz

I'm actually dying to try some of this stuff, though I have some considerations, as I will review some gear. Once I upgrade the ZOTL, it is no longer that useful in comparison to other amps (though it would MORE useful reviewing OTHER gear through it with increased fidelity). Those of us with 10 thumbs (some broken) approach this stuff with a bit of trepidation, but seems there is some stuff, like damping, that even I should be able to pull off.

Looking forward to Blue's write ups, but I do know that he will be busy tending to the flocks, indulging in spirituality and debauchery (as it should be)...have to get out to one of these things one of these days!


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## MojoAudio

That is my intention: to offer different upgrades at different price points that require different levels of skill.
  
 I was also considering offering upgrade "kits" to Head-Fiers.
  
 Where as the individual would have to order from a dozen different sources and pay retail + shipping, I could let's say order enough parts to make 10 mZ2 DIY upgrade kits, and save all of your shipping excessive shipping and hassles. I could even have stuff like the B-Quiet chassis dampening sheets pre-cut to fit the mZ2.
  
 After reading these upgrades, let me know...if enough of you want DIY upgrade kits I'll be happy to put them together for you


----------



## vapman

mojoaudio said:


> After reading these upgrades, let me know...if enough of you want DIY upgrade kits I'll be happy to put them together for you


 
 For the inevitable day I finally pick up a mZ2 I'd be super interested in some sort of upgrade kit 
 I'll have to see if a tour pans out


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## jamato8

For input tubes I am really liking the 7062. I have many 12AT7 types but the 7062 really pan out. Also the TS round plate and the 6F8G in round plate do very well.


----------



## MojoAudio

jamato8 said:


> For input tubes I am really liking the 7062. I have many 12AT7 types but the 7062 really pan out. Also the TS round plate and the 6F8G in round plate do very well.


 
  
 I totally agree - that was the surprise input tube I was going to put in Dr. Blue's mZ2.
  
 If you look at the plate area it is significantly taller than the 12AT7, yet this tube can be substituted for the more common 12AT7 in most components.
  
 All things being equal, more plate area could be equated to more cc's or more cylinders in a car: the sound has more "torque" out of the hole.
  
 Weight, extension, speed, effortlessness: I can't recommend this more as a high-value mZ2 upgrade that only requires modest skills.
  
 And because the 7062 is not in as much demand as other NOS tubes you can get better tubes for less $$$.
  
 Check out eBay's seller...you can get an excellent matched pair for $60-$90:
  
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=7062&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.X7062+tube.TRS0&_nkw=7062+tube&_sacat=0


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## jamato8

The 7062 also has a long life. I do not like the pinched waste in this tube, duller sounding.


----------



## MojoAudio

*Stripping down your mZ2, part 1:*
  
 In order to efficiently and cost effectively assemble electronics, they are often broken down into "modules" and "wiring harnesses" that can be manufactured and tested off-line prior to the final assembly of the component. Hard wiring components is far less efficient and far more expensive.
  
 The mZ2 has a main board and a few wiring harnesses that were assembled and tested prior to putting them into the chassis.  While I'm stripping out the unused wiring harnesses I'm going to remove the main board to figure out the upgrade parts I need to order. I could do some of the anti-resonance stuff at as long as I have things apart.
  
 Point being, you won't have to remove the main board to simplify your mZ2's wiring, but you may want to consider holding off and doing everything at once to save yourself redoing several of the assembly and disassembly operations.
  
 So here is the first simple mod: separating the power and signal wires.
  
 Before you do ANYTHING to your mZ2 I assume you all have enough sense to unplug it from the power supply and remove the tubes?
  
 Good.
 No need to prove Darwin right under my watch 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 This mod requires only a modest skill level - aside from the 7/64" Allen driver needed to remove the top of your mZ2, all you'll need is a wire cutter, toenail clipper, or other sharp object.
  
 And this mod is easily reversible with modest skills and tools as well.
  
 Take the top off of your mZ2.
  
 Observe on the L and R sides of the mZ2 chassis where there are bundles of wires tied together with tiny tie straps.
  
 On the L side the inputs are tied with the power - most would consider this to be a no-no.
  
 So carefully cut the tiny tie straps and separate the signal and power like the photo below.
  
 Similarly on the R side the different outputs are tied together.
  
 Excess wire can act like an antenna attracting and amplifying EMF and RFI noise.
  
 Carefully clip those tiny ties and separate those wires as well.
  
 It should look something like the photos below:
  

  

  
Notice how the wires are kept away from everything, including each other, as well as away from anything hot, like the tubes. 
  
 You can't see if from the angle of the photo, but the wire that was moved to the center actually goes both out and up at an angle to avoid the tube and the attenuator.
  
 If you want at this point you can put your tubes back in, power her up and take a listen if you want (no need to put the cover back on).
  
 Can you hear any difference?
  
 I would guess you would need a VERY sensitive system to hear this mod, but when you combine it with the other low-yield mods in this "strip down" section, the result should be a notable improvement.
  
 Next I'll be removing all the wire harnesses and the main board.


----------



## zachawry

mojoaudio said:


> That is my intention: to offer different upgrades at different price points that require different levels of skill.
> 
> I was also considering offering upgrade "kits" to Head-Fiers.
> 
> ...


 

 I think you need four options: 
  
 1. Skilled       Cheap 
 2. Unskilled   Cheap
 3. Skilled       Expensive 
 4. Unskilled   Expensive
  
 I'm willing to spend money on my upgrade, but I have no particular skills in this area and I don't want to endanger the piece of technology that provides me with the most joy I get in the world outside of my children.


----------



## claud W

I agree. I got no skills in modding electronics and no tools


----------



## MojoAudio

*Stripping down your mZ2, part 2:*
  
 Removing unused wire harnesses.
  
 I've stripped down my mZ2 to get better access to the places I need to solder and un-solder.
  
 Note how I put all the hardware and spacers back on each connector as I removed them so they won't get lost.
  
 Note how I completely removed the binding posts: I have no use for a flea powered amp.
  
 What I may do in the future is add more preamp outputs in the holes where the binding posts were removed.
  
 These parallel preamp outs could be used for a sub-out or for a tri-amped system.
  
 Another thing I'll likely do in the future is replace the 1/4" jack with a 4-pin XLR for balanced headphones.
  
 No need to use an adapter + better performance.
  
 That won't make the mZ2 balanced, but it would eliminate the need for an adapter with your mZ2 for those of you with balanced amps.
  
 Mark was smart to use the specific 1/4" jack he used: the hole is IDENTICAL to standard XLR connectors: all you need to do is un-screw/un-solder then re-solder/re-screw.
  
 Below is a photo of my mZ2 ready to have un-used solder joints un-soldered and less complex connections re-soldered.


----------



## MojoAudio

*Stripping down your mZ2, part 3:*
  
 Re-manufacturing the in/out harnesses you're keeping.
  
 Below are image of the wiring harnesses I made using the stock parts from a mZ2.
  
 With little more time you could upgrade your RCA jacks, hook up wire, and attenuator, as you are making your minimized wire harnesses.
  
 You could also add more preamp outputs, add more preamp inputs, and/or change the 1/4" jack to a 4-pin XLR.
  
 So I'm not going to show you the "how to" with the upgraded parts I'm getting in next week. Likely I'll post a photo or three, but the process and technology I've outlined will work with any connectors, any wire, any attenuator, or for that matter, almost any component in your system.
  
 You could even use the empty holes from where the binding posts were removed to reconfigure your mZ2 for up to three inputs and two outputs. Mike Percy has some very high quality silver contact toggle switches in a double throw triple pull that would allow you to do that.
  
 Just follow the same rules for any ins and outs:
  
 1. Less is more.
 2. Isolate every in, out, and power wire.
 3. Use twisted pairs of wires to cancel out common mode noise.
 4. Keep as much space in between all wires and parts.
 5. Make sure wires are away from parts that get hot (tubes).
  

  
  
 Above is the inside of the 1/4" headphone jack with all the additional outputs removed. Note that both black/ground wires go to the same pin. If you were to replace this connector with a 4-pin XLR for balanced headphones each ground wire would have its own pin.
  
 You'll note how the binding posts had a common ground but the wires coming form the main board have dedicated grounds for each channel. This is actually perfect if you wanted to replace the 1/4" jack with a 4-pin XLR.
  
  

  
 Above is the stripped down input wiring harness along with the attenuator and no input selector switch. Note that I took one of the unused wires form the 2nd input for the 2nd channel's twisted pair. Note how I soldered that added ground wire to the ground tab on the RCA. Since both RCAs are grounded through the chassis, this one grounding tab should work just fine. The big advantage of adding the second ground wire was to lower noise floor with a classic common mode noise cancelling twisted pair (plus lower ground resistance).
  

  
 This is a close up of the second ground wire at the RCA end. Note the second ground wire is red.
  

  
  
 This is a close up of the stripped down attenuator on the end of the input wire harness. Note how on the R side it says "L in" and how that far right red wire is the 2nd ground I added.
  
 Note those pins at the output of the attenuator. They connect to females on the main board. They are SO bad I can't believe it. I could barely put the pins on the output wires from the attenuator back into the females. They were VERY lose. My recommendation will be to remove those pins/females and hard wire solder the wires exiting the attenuator directly to the main board.
  
 Of course this will make it a real PIA to reassemble and I wouldn't recommend doing it until one of the last steps in your mZ2 upgrade.
  

  
 Above is a photo of the stripped down DC power input. Not only did I remove the on/off switch (the ZOTL LPS has a power switch), but I removed all that wire that ran parallel to the sensitive input signal wires.
  
 Just like with the input from the attenuator, I recommend hard wiring the DC input as well. And also like the attenuator input, hard wiring inputs and outputs should be among the last things you do.
  
 In my last re-assembly I'll be removing the DC input jack and replacing it with a strain relief that will allow the DC power cable to be hard wired to the main board plus eliminating two low quality DC power connectors.
  

  
 Above is a photo of the L side with fully stripped down inputs and wiring. Note that the L and R twisted pair are kept separated. Note that I put the R connector on the R and the L connector on the L as opposed to the high/low stock configuration. Note how the twisted pairs are away from everything.
  

  
 Above is a photo of the stripped down output wire harness reinstalled. Note how the twisted pairs are both positioned away from each other and away form the hot output tube. This is one more connector that I recommend hard wiring at the final assembly of your mZ2 upgrade.
  
  

  
 And finally the photo above has all the connectors, wires, switches, and face plate that were stripped off this mZ2.


----------



## jamato8

I think you are voiding the warranty. Not sure though.


----------



## MojoAudio

*Stripping down your mZ2, Conclusion:*
  
 So that is the "no cost" upgrade.
  
 I'll be dropping this mZ2 off at Dr. Blue's early next week for him to compare to his stock mZ2.
  
 My guess is if you have a decent source and a ZOTL LPS you'll hear a notable improvement from stripping down your mZ2 and applying some of those simple rules to minimize cross-talk and noise.
  
 After Dr. Blue is done comparing this modded mZ2 to his stock mZ2 I'll be upgrade some of the parts and have him compare how much of the performance came from the circuit and how much from the parts. I'll also do the anti-resonance upgrades at the same time.
  
 Since these "strip down" upgrades deal with wire and connectors I consider them to only require a modest level of skills. If you screw up a wire harness all you have to replace would be a connector and/or the wire. Much upside and little downside.
  
 Upgrades that involve removing/replacing parts from the main board I would not recommend for the novice. If you screw up you may be buying a whole new mZ2 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 An interesting phenomenon of lowering your noise floor that most people don't realize is that if you lower your noise floor by 3db you have in fact increased you dynamic range by that same 3db.
 I'm looking forward to reading some of your feedback as to who heard what improvements with this simple no-cost upgrade


----------



## MojoAudio

jamato8 said:


> I think you are voiding the warranty. Not sure though.


 

*I know for a fact this would void your warranty from LTA. *
  
 As far as I know, any upgrades to any components voids the manufacturer's warrant.


----------



## drbluenewmexico

mojoaudio said:


> *I know for a fact this would void your warranty from LTA. *
> 
> As far as I know, any upgrades to any components voids the manufacturer's warrant.


 

 as Yoda mumbles, "Don't Avoid the Void and Praise the Droid"
 gotta get our Mojo on.......but I'm quite aware of the tendency for "placebo" upgrades to
 be praised by biased observers (naive or experienced ones).
 in the original psychophysics research of the 19th century there was a term:
 VEXERVERSUKEN, in German, which was the "ghost stimulus" that subjects hallucinated
 HALF THE TIME, in a ganzfield, or moving light field in a dark box. i.e.. our brains want to
 to find meaning and stories in random changes in stimulation to make us feel the world is predictable
 and makes sense. we have to guard against hearing what we want to hear.


----------



## MojoAudio

drbluenewmexico said:


> as Yoda mumbles, "Don't Avoid the Void and Praise the Droid"
> gotta get our Mojo on.......but I'm quite aware of the tendency for "placebo" upgrades to
> be praised by biased observers (naive or experienced ones).
> in the original psychophysics research of the 19th century there was a term:
> ...


 
  
 Spoken like a true lab rat 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 You do get the idea that everyone is counting on you to determine which of these upgrades are worth the $$$ and which are not, right?


----------



## willsw

I'll step in for a moment and mention that the Loctite applied to the screws holding the power switch and headphone jack can sometimes prove very difficult to conquer, though it is breakable Loctite. So, be careful.


----------



## jamato8

mojoaudio said:


> *I know for a fact this would void your warranty from LTA. *
> 
> As far as I know, any upgrades to any components voids the manufacturer's warrant.


 

 Yes, I was joking. 
  
 I have pulled the wires apart, something I always do on the equipment I build but I have never touched the MZ2. There is an increase in transparency. 
  
 Also for my own equipment, I rarely have switches etc. My preamp has one for 2 different input but the unit I use is one I took apart and redid in hyper pure dead soft silver for the internals. I even have the IC's soldered directly to output, no RCA's. I have never liked all that brass in the signal path to begin with. Also I use a Goldpoint in most everything and my own special wire. For resistors I like the old tantalum 2 watt but the Japanese made ones are hard to find and my stock of them is limited in values.


----------



## MojoAudio

willsw said:


> I'll step in for a moment and mention that the Loctite applied to the screws holding the power switch and headphone jack can sometimes prove very difficult to conquer, though it is breakable Loctite. So, be careful.


 
  
 Hey Will.
  
 Interesting on the Locktite.
  
 Do you know if ACETONE (nail polish remover) is the best solvent for the type of Locktite you guys use?
  
 Obviously by the screen printing on the inside face of the chassis that my personal mZ2 is one of the earlier ones (duplicates screen printing as on face plate). I've heard that you guys have gone through a few subtle changes with the mZ2 chassis, switches, packing, etc, since the earliest prototypes.
  
 Apparently my mZ2 didn't have any Locktite on the power switch or headphone jack, so it was fairly easy to remove.
  
 BTW, it is the power switch and headphone jack that hold the mZ2s face plate onto the main chassis. Even if some of you decide to remove the on/off switch as I did, but decide to keep the face plate, you may want to keep the power switch itself in it's hole if for no other reason, to hold the face plate on (no wires inside).
  
 I did a theoretical test with my mZ2 and removed the face plate to lower the chassis mass. As many of you may have heard, there are contradictory opinions as to if less mass or more mass improves performance. IMO it depends on the component's resonance frequency and sensitivities, so I don't know if an mZ2 will sound better or worse with or without its face plate.
  
 My plan is to do the anti-resonance stuff I described in an earlier post to my mZ2 chassis before I do the last of my upgrades and final reassembly. As one of my final tests I'll be comparing my mZ2's performance with and without it's face plate.
  
 Point being, there are several theories and opinions on what is better for anti-resonance and I plan on testing some of these theories first hand as opposed to simply intellectually accepting their validity or assuming something I did in the past will automatically apply to the mZ2.
  
 Now that I've redone my wire harnesses in my mZ2 for all inside mounting, adding/removing the face plate and listening as to if it improves or degrades the sound will take relatively little time.
  
 Similar to how the optimal anti-resonance mods may be different from person to person, the same connectors won't sound best on everyone's mZ2.
  
 I always recommend that people match the metallurgy and/or brand of the connectors on their cables and in their chassis. Personally I use Furutech's best rhodium plated silver over copper. My guess is that most of you have gold plating on your interconnects connectors. I would certainly recommend staying with a similar gold plated metallurgy, but ideally I recommend that you attempt to use the specific mating connector from the specific brand used on your interconnects.


----------



## MojoAudio

jamato8 said:


> Yes, I was joking.
> 
> I have pulled the wires apart, something I always do on the equipment I build but I have never touched the MZ2. There is an increase in transparency.
> 
> Also for my own equipment, I rarely have switches etc. My preamp has one for 2 different input but the unit I use is one I took apart and redid in hyper pure dead soft silver for the internals. I even have the IC's soldered directly to output, no RCA's. I have never liked all that brass in the signal path to begin with. Also I use a Goldpoint in most everything and my own special wire. For resistors I like the old tantalum 2 watt but the Japanese made ones are hard to find and my stock of them is limited in values.


 
  
 I'm a big fan of the better Caddock and Vishay resistors, but they are INSANELY expensive...$6-$13 each 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I find the Caddock to have a subtle more organic sounding character and the Vishay to have a subtle more transparent sounding character.
  
 I've had a few conversations over a beer with Mark at RMAF'15 about upgrading the resistors in LTA products - he confirmed that David used the better Caddock resistors in his $70K amps.
  
 Mark also confirmed there were few resistors in the signal path, so even if you upgraded your mZ2 with insanely expensive resistors, it won't break your bank account


----------



## jamato8

mojoaudio said:


> I'm a big fan of the better Caddock and Vishay resistors, but they are INSANELY expensive...$6-$13 each
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 That is true, when few in the signal path, it is worth it to go all out. Though the other resistors can add or decrease noise those in the signal path as you mention, are at the top of the heap in specs. I have always like the Dale for many board uses. Really inexpensive but for many applications, it does an excellent job.


----------



## MojoAudio

jamato8 said:


> That is true, when few in the signal path, it is worth it to go all out. Though the other resistors can add or decrease noise those in the signal path as you mention, are at the top of the heap in specs. I have always like the Dale for many board uses. Really inexpensive but for many applications, it does an excellent job.


 
  
 You can't go wrong with Dale resistors - one of the best values.
  
 My question would be, if you could hear and how much you would hear a performance increase over what LTA is using?
  
 The resistors LTA is using are already a good quality metal film resistor to begin with.
  
 Possibly one of the mZ2 threaders that does some of these upgrades can answer that question for us?
  
 I feel the same way about the connectors used on the stock mZ2 - they are of such high quality to begin with I would think you would need to spend quite a bit to get a performance upgrade.
  
 On the other hand, the wire used in the mZ2 appears to be a high-temp tin plated copper. My guess this was selected for optimal durability as opposed to optimal performance. 
  
*Some good sources for upgrade parts...*
  
 For a modest priced resistor I would consider the Holco "whole copper" (about $0.45 to $1.85 each depending on value).
  
 I mentioned how Mike Percy and VH Audio sell the same plus specialty products?
  
 Mike Percy is the guy for the exotic resistors.
  
http://percyaudio.com/
  
 You could get both Dale and Caddock resistors from a mainstream electronics parts supplier like Mouser.
  
http://www.mouser.com/
  
 But you can get Holco, Vishay, Yamato, and several other more exotic brand/type resistors from Mike Percy.
  
 On the other hand, VH Audio is my #1 exotic wire source. You can buy much of what Chris sells from other vendors, but Chris specializes in some of the best PROPRIETARY high-end bulk wire for just about every end use.
  
http://www.vhaudio.com/
  
 Once of the cool things I'm liking about upgrading my mZ2 and Stax T1 headphone amps is that I can hear EVERYTHING that I do.
  
 A perfect way for the more advanced DIYer to compare this and that similar part to learn which they find to be best and which they find to be best value


----------



## jamato8

I also like Mills and Kiwame. They provide very good results without having to sell a kidney.


----------



## richard51

mojoaudio said:


> What that translates to is there is no "one size fits all" or in your case, no one product such as Sorbothane, that can fix all vibration issues.
> 
> Don't get me wrong...I use Sorbothane feet on all my entry level components and I would recommend that my customers mass load my products if they can.
> 
> ...


 
  I am certain that these wooden feet are efficient if you say so for isolating the vibrations... I trust your expertise...
  
 But in my experiment with sorbothane 70 duro seems the best for audio... what  is the duro of these feet of yours?
 Second remark, 70 duro sorbothane MUST be compressed to  optimally absorb vibration and convert it in heat...Wooden feet dont do that even if compressed ...
  I have put a load on all my gear with 70 duro under it, believe me it is an extraordinary upgrade...When i will have the money i will buy the zotl2, and will test it with this 70 duro pieces under it with a load around 25 pounds or more on top of it...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Sorbothane duro 70, if possible,  must be compressed to  optimally absorb vibration and convert it in heat, annihilating destructive resonance...i am no expert , only an ordinary guy playing with sorb. and 70 duro EXCEED for audio all other duro i had try ...  By the way i use sorbothane under and inside my speakers, and on my Stax headphone too and on ALL my gear  My battery charger for the dac is sorbothanized and the sorb. is compressed, even my power conditioner and the isolator i use between the computer and the dac is sorbothanized also ... the achille heels of my system is the Sansui AU-7700 because of this power supply thing , the zotl2+psu will replace it ... Thanks very much for your devotion and  this passion ...i Thank you for all the extraordinary information you give freely here...


----------



## jamato8

richard51 said:


> I am certain that these wooden feet are efficient if you say so for isolating the vibrations... I trust your expertise...
> 
> But in my experiment with sorbothane 70 duro seems the best for audio... what  is the duro of these feet of yours?
> Second remark, 70 duro sorbothane MUST be compressed to  optimally absorb vibration and convert it in heat...Wooden feet dont do that even if compressed ...
> ...


 

 I have found that sorbathane sometimes works and sometimes can make the sound worse. It depends upon how and where they are used.


----------



## richard51

jamato8 said:


> I have found that sorbathane sometimes works and sometimes can make the sound worse. It depends upon how and where they are used.


 

 Exactly...How  : if possible compressed... Where : for me it is on all my gear...which duro: in audio use 70 duro...If not rightly applied, without the right thickness, duro and format, the sound will be worse in many case yes...
  
  But wooden, metal feet cannot compare to a product which absorb and transform vibration into heat, optimally if under optimal stress..metal or wooden feet are isolator only...My remark has been made and i will shut up now, because it is a Zotl thread not sorb. thread and all the thread is very interesting with all of you and the Mojoguy... thanks to you


----------



## defbear

This may be a unpopular post. I'm a business guy. Is anyone besides me sick to death of Mojo Audios overlong posts totally blowing up the thread. A brand new guy arrives and then starts totally Trashing the microZOTL 2 amp. Then tries to make money on the microZ as if he invented it. Mojo Audio has been completely Unprofessional in their business conduct. I can only assume LTA is livid with this guy first trash talking the amp and then trying to take over on this board for $$$. Let us see Mojo Audio invent their own little Miracle Amp for $1100.00 and then let someone else telling them their stuff needs to be rebuilt. 
If there were going to be an upgraded parts microZ it should come from LTA. Not from this Cowboy. After reading all the durrogotory posts against LTA I would not let them touch my stuff nor purchase from them. Their heart 'may be' in the right place but Mojo Audio does not know how to ACT.

Ymmv and whatever internet anagrams u like


----------



## jelt2359

Personally I read his tweaks with great interest. I too have experienced good gains with footers, and hes linked to items all over the web, not all of which are pricy, and mostly sold by other people- so I still found all of it useful. I also like that he tells us what he mods. If he came in saying "my mod is the best thing ever I can't say much" that wouldn't have benefitted anyone at all. I may try out some of his dampening tweaks, which seems like it would benefit not just the Mzotl but other equipment too. 

To be fair he was also one of the first to build a separate lps for the Mzotl that was well received- even before LTA themselves. They've now followed suit but for a while mojo was the main choice linked around here.


----------



## willsw

jelt2359 said:
			
		

> .
> To be fair he was also one of the first to build a separate lps for the Mzotl that was well received- even before LTA themselves. They've now followed suit but for a while mojo was your only choice.




Before Mojo has to say this, as he will because he's nothing if not dedicated to as close to true product comparison and choice, there are and have been many choices for power supplies. He has already linked a few.

Second, to chime in before things get our of hand, as I've been pretty quiet and very busy with Newport lately, we at LTA are happy to have an R&D department like Mojo (joke, not joke, kinda joke). We released a product at a lowest price to performance ratio possible, and pretty much as similar to David Berning's original as possible, only improving what we can without increasing cost significantly. This means that it's a product with incredible potential for improvement. Berning's highest end amps use essentially the same circuitry, they're just scaled all the way up. It is inevitable that the audio community will upgrade it, especially with the board staring them in the face through the transparent top.
I think Ben's (Mojo) posts are valuable and interesting. We invited him to make posts about upgrades. I do think that the length and frequency of them are congesting the thread a bit, and maybe making these blog posts on the Mojo blog, with posts that simply let people know that there's been an update. He had originally suggested starting a separate thread for MicroZOTL2 modifications, but I thought that this was already a part of this thread, and said it would be fine to integrate here. Seeing the actual parts, I do think they would be better, and better organized and more easily revisitable, posted on the Mojo blog, which I'm sure many interested people will follow.

 This was going to be mentioned behind the scenes to Ben, but I thought it was better to say that LTA recognizes that Ben is very skilled and we're as interested as anyone in his modifications. As how things have developed, probably the separate blog is best for the thread.


----------



## defbear

jelt2359 said:


> Personally I read his tweaks with great interest. I too have experienced good gains with footers, and hes linked to items all over the web, not all of which are pricy, and mostly sold by other people- so I still found all of it useful. I also like that he tells us what he mods. If he came in saying "my mod is the best thing ever I can't say much" that wouldn't have benefitted anyone at all. I may try out some of his dampening tweaks, which seems like it would benefit not just the Mzotl but other equipment too.
> 
> To be fair he was also one of the first to build a separate lps for the Mzotl that was well received- even before LTA themselves. They've now followed suit but for a while mojo was your only choice.


I did not know that, at the time, Mojo Audio was the only manufacturer of Linear Power Supplies. I assume they cost a mint if true. I started to enjoy the posts until they went mercenary and it all became Too Much. Mojo Audio might build a website dedicated to the subject if it can be done without violating copyrights or patents.
'Beginnings are fragile' - Frank Herbert


----------



## jelt2359

willsw said:


> Before Mojo has to say this, as he will because he's nothing if not dedicated to as close to true product comparison and choice, there are and have been many choices for power supplies. He has already linked a few.
> 
> Second, to chime in before things get our of hand, as I've been pretty quiet and very busy with Newport lately, we at LTA are happy to have an R&D department like Mojo (joke, not joke, kinda joke). We released a product at a lowest price to performance ratio possible, and pretty much as similar to David Berning's original as possible, only improving what we can without increasing cost significantly. This means that it's a product with incredible potential for improvement. Berning's highest end amps use essentially the same circuitry, they're just scaled all the way up. It is inevitable that the audio community will upgrade it, especially with the board staring them in the face through the transparent top.
> I think Ben's (Mojo) posts are valuable and interesting. We invited him to make posts about upgrades. I do think that the length and frequency of them are congesting the thread a bit, and maybe making these blog posts on the Mojo blog, with posts that simply let people know that there's been an update. He had originally suggested starting a separate thread for MicroZOTL2 modifications, but I thought that this was already a part of this thread, and said it would be fine to integrate here. Seeing the actual parts, I do think they would be better, and better organized and more easily revisitable, posted on the Mojo blog, which I'm sure many interested people will follow.
> ...




Thanks for chiming in. Can't find anything to disagree with here. I for one am keen to hear what DrBlue thinks of the modded version. The proof is in the pudding!


----------



## jelt2359

defbear said:


> I did not know that, at the time, Mojo Audio was the only manufacturer of Linear Power Supplies. I assume they cost a mint if true. I started to enjoy the posts until they went mercenary and it all became Too Much. Mojo Audio might build a website dedicated to the subject if it can be done without violating copyrights or patents.
> 'Beginnings are fragile' - Frank Herbert




can't disagree either. Great posts, albeit a bit overwhelming. But weighing the pros and cons I do think the thread still benefitted- not sure many others have the expertise and the willingness to void their warranties with modification experiments at this point.


----------



## jamato8

defbear said:


> This may be a unpopular post. I'm a business guy. Is anyone besides me sick to death of Mojo Audios overlong posts totally blowing up the thread. A brand new guy arrives and then starts totally Trashing the microZOTL 2 amp. Then tries to make money on the microZ as if he invented it. Mojo Audio has been completely Unprofessional in their business conduct. I can only assume LTA is livid with this guy first trash talking the amp and then trying to take over on this board for $$$. Let us see Mojo Audio invent their own little Miracle Amp for $1100.00 and then let someone else telling them their stuff needs to be rebuilt.
> If there were going to be an upgraded parts microZ it should come from LTA. Not from this Cowboy. After reading all the durrogotory posts against LTA I would not let them touch my stuff nor purchase from them. Their heart 'may be' in the right place but Mojo Audio does not know how to ACT.
> 
> Ymmv and whatever internet anagrams u like


 

 The posts a very interesting element to the MZ2. If too long, don't read the posts. But part of the enjoyment of this hobby is the ability to further understand and if one has the skill, to further the musical enjoyment that his hobby can offer if you modify. And while for manufactures it isn't a hobby, for those who purchase, most of the time, it is. So with that in mind, something that can add to the value and substance of what we are doing, for me, is well worth the read. It is up to each individual whether they want to make any changes to equipment but also the ability to understand what is going on and why, adds to the substance of what we do. Enjoy the music and comradery that this can foster, life is short.


----------



## defbear

willsw said:


> Before Mojo has to say this, as he will because he's nothing if not dedicated to as close to true product comparison and choice, there are and have been many choices for power supplies. He has already linked a few.
> 
> Second, to chime in before things get our of hand, as I've been pretty quiet and very busy with Newport lately, we at LTA are happy to have an R&D department like Mojo (joke, not joke, kinda joke). We released a product at a lowest price to performance ratio possible, and pretty much as similar to David Berning's original as possible, only improving what we can without increasing cost significantly. This means that it's a product with incredible potential for improvement. Berning's highest end amps use essentially the same circuitry, they're just scaled all the way up. It is inevitable that the audio community will upgrade it, especially with the board staring them in the face through the transparent top.
> I think Ben's (Mojo) posts are valuable and interesting. We invited him to make posts about upgrades. I do think that the length and frequency of them are congesting the thread a bit, and maybe making these blog posts on the Mojo blog, with posts that simply let people know that there's been an update. He had originally suggested starting a separate thread for MicroZOTL2 modifications, but I thought that this was already a part of this thread, and said it would be fine to integrate here. Seeing the actual parts, I do think they would be better, and better organized and more easily revisitable, posted on the Mojo blog, which I'm sure many interested people will follow.
> ...


Well if Will is in then so am I. Up until now I would have given Mojo Audio an official Bah! But I was wrong, not wrong, kinda right and will read the Mojo Blog, Log and Lore, Nay despair age nor speak ill of them no more.


----------



## willsw

defbear said:


> Well if Will is in then so am I. Up until now I would have given Mojo Audio an official Bah! But I was wrong, not wrong, kinda right and will read the Mojo Blog, Log and Lore, Nay despair age nor speak ill of them no more.



I appreciate the solidarity, but also certainly entitle every man to his Bah!, in favor of or against any version of the products I represent. Ben has made the MicroZOTL2 into a stock car and next he'll ready it for LeMans (forgive me if my racing analogy is off), but he is a manufacturer himself and is generous to recognize why we have yet to sell either version ourselves, which is not to say SUPERDUPERSOGOODBESTEVERMZ9000 isn't coming, but it'll certainly be an unknown while, and plenty of high value products have mod communities around them for those willing, capable, and looking for more. I'm quite happy with my amp, but certainly will keep an eye on what's written, as I've been doing the whole time with everything that people have written regarding upgrades.
But, again, I hate to see a Bah! abandoned, as I'm a supporter of them when you feel that they're appropriate.


----------



## doctorjazz

So, now I'm not clear on this...will Ben continue to post here? On a new Head Fi thread? On some other blog? Telepathically? Smoke signals?


----------



## willsw

doctorjazz said:


> So, now I'm not clear on this...will Ben continue to post here? On a new Head Fi thread? On some other blog? Telepathically? Smoke signals?


 
  
 Ben may do what he would like, so he'll decide that. I also am a regular citizen here, I just happen to work for the company this thread is about. He had suggested to me a new thread dedicated to upgrades (similar to what already exists for tube-rolling and modifications for other products) but I thought that this thread's content and pace already matched that in content and could handle a few more posts regarding modifications, and was worried that after some initial posts an upgrade thread would end up drifting into the far pages of the _Unvisited Threads_. I, as many do, underestimated Ben's incredible enthusiasm and energy when it comes to audio. For the readability of this thread, especially for people just discovering it, and also the readability and to be easily linked and re-visited, it seems to me that Ben's impressive upgrade project be continued (with the past posts added) on his blog, with him letting people know here whenever that blog is updated. And, of course, posting whatever he wants.
  
 Again, Ben, apologies that this wasn't in an email, I think the upgrade project is exciting and your posts are very informative, it looks I gave some bad advice about the logistics of it.
  
 And if anyone wants to hear Ben's very underrepresented on Head-Fi DAC and is visiting Newport, we've got one at our booth.


----------



## jamato8

I don't understand why there is much dialogue on the modifications regarding them being posted. I have done this in the past and had a lot of posts on modifying the Woo Audio amps and other amps. People enjoyed it and Woo Audio even adopted my modifications and still uses my coined phrase, the Pseudo Dual Power Supply.


----------



## doctorjazz

I prefer the mods stay here, actually, along with the tube recommendations (even though, being 10 thumbs, and time challenged, I'm likely not to attempt any but the simplest, if I try any). I hate following multiple threads on the same gear (the best dac for...,the best headphones for...the best beer for..., well, maybe we should start the beer thread  ). Otherwise, the only thing to post is, "I love mine", "no, I love mine more", "I like X amp better...".


----------



## jamato8

doctorjazz said:


> I prefer the mods stay here, actually, along with the tube recommendations (even though, being 10 thumbs, and time challenged, I'm likely not to attempt any but the simplest, if I try any). I hate following multiple threads on the same gear (the best dac for...,the best headphones for...the best beer for..., well, maybe we should start the beer thread
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I would agree.


----------



## MojoAudio

richard51 said:


> I am certain that these wooden feet are efficient if you say so for isolating the vibrations... I trust your expertise...
> 
> But in my experiment with sorbothane 70 duro seems the best for audio... what  is the duro of these feet of yours?


 
  
 Hi Richard.
  
 The truth about mechanical resonance noise is that it is partly from the electronic parts, partly from the electronic component (chassis + parts), partly from the audio rack/furniture, partly from the room, partly from the floor, and even partly music related.
  
 Not only is there no "one product" or "one type of product" that will work, but if you move the same flawlessly modified gear from one system in one room to another system in another room everything will change.
  
 Some examples...
  
 There is vibrations in the room from both the music played and the environment. The proximity of your listening room to roads with heavy trucks and mechanical things like heaters or AC units can add to the vibrations audiophiles are attempting to dampen.
  
 Even different places in the same building respond differently, for example a slab concrete basement vs. suspended wooded floors above. Do you realize that suspended wooden floor act like huge drivers? Both bass notes from your system and external vibrations from trucks and machinery are amplified and transmitted by wooden floors.
  
 Here's a cool trick for those of you with wooden floors: use "floor leveling jacks" to change the vibration rate and intensity of a room. Below is an example of of one brand/type you can find. By inserting and/or changing the position of these jacks you change the "turning" of your floor. More jacks means less intensity of vibration spread over different frequencies.
  
https://ellismanufacturing.com/collections/screw-jacks
  
 Think of what happens when you press a string against a fret on an instrument. In effect, floor jacks can change the "note(s)" your floor will "play" when vibration is applied.
  
 Which brings me to the next BIG topic: the resonance noise changes significantly in the same component if played with loudspeakers vs. as a headphone amp.
  
 People that are using their mZ2 only for headphones are going to prefer different anti-resonance devices than the exact same mZ2 in the exact same room/system played through speakers.
  
 Does that make sense?
  
 So you are not just relating the Durometer of the Sorbothane to a purpose, but the square inches of Sorbothane, the height of the Sorbothane, the weight of the equipment on it, and the weight of the added mass loading.
  
 Companies like EAR (the feet I use) and Herbie's spend significant amount of time and $$$ on researching as to what total weight of component and what frequency/intensity of sound waves each product is optimized for. Most of these companies don't give away their Durometer ratings or anything else (trade secrets).
  
 I would recommend two thing:
  
 1. Test your different components with different amounts of Sorbothane and weight to learn if there are any differences in terms of performance.
 2. Read through a later post I'm planning on recommended anti-resonance treatments I'm making to my mZ2 and test some to learn if any of them help.
  
 Just remember: there is no UNIVERSAL answer that combats resonance noise.


----------



## MojoAudio

jamato8 said:


> I don't understand why there is much dialogue on the modifications regarding them being posted...


 
  
 Neither do I.  
  
 I'm taking quite a bit of my time to give away a lot of valuable info for free to support the Head-Fi community.
  
 I've gotten SEVERAL off-thread requests from people to show these mods/upgrades.
  
 By now I'm sure the webmasters at Head-Fi are aware of what I'm doing.
  
 If for some reason I'm breaking some Head-Fi rules please let me know and I'll stop immediately.
  
 If I'm not breaking any Head-Fi rules by posting mZ2 upgrades than I would recommend that those of you that are not interested in mZ2 upgrades should simply skip my posts and allow the significant number of mZ2 fans that are interested in upgrades to enjoy them.
  
 Either way, I certainly don't mean any offense to anyone.


----------



## MojoAudio

defbear said:


> This may be a unpopular post. I'm a business guy. Is anyone besides me sick to death of Mojo Audios overlong posts totally blowing up the thread. A brand new guy arrives and then starts totally Trashing the microZOTL 2 amp. Then tries to make money on the microZ as if he invented it. Mojo Audio has been completely Unprofessional in their business conduct. I can only assume LTA is livid with this guy first trash talking the amp and then trying to take over on this board for $$$. Let us see Mojo Audio invent their own little Miracle Amp for $1100.00 and then let someone else telling them their stuff needs to be rebuilt.
> If there were going to be an upgraded parts microZ it should come from LTA. Not from this Cowboy. After reading all the durrogotory posts against LTA I would not let them touch my stuff nor purchase from them. Their heart 'may be' in the right place but Mojo Audio does not know how to ACT.
> 
> Ymmv and whatever internet anagrams u like


 
  
*Actually, I'm friends with everyone at LTA and I specifically asked Will and Mark if it was OK before posting any of these upgrades.*
  
 The people at LTA know I've gotten requests for over a year now from people asking me to post upgrades on the mZ2.
  
 A significant percentage of the upgrades I'm recommending will be considered in later more expensive versions of the LTA ZOTL amps...Mark and I have had several long conversations about this.
  
 We are even talking about having a table in the room we share at RMAF'16 that will have one of my upgraded mZ2s for people to hear.
  
 If you read my posting carefully you will see that I stated quite clearly what an AMAZING value the stock mZ2 is for the $$$.
  
 There is no way any company could sell an mZ2 for much less than TWICE the price LTA is selling them for if they used some of the parts and labor intensive assembly methods I'm recommending. I consider the mZ2 to be an ENGINEERING MARVEL that such a great sounding headphone amp could sell for only $1,100.
  
 BTW, I wasn't born in New Mexico, so I'm also not a Cowboy 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
*No worries Defbear: I realize that you had no idea the number of requests I've had for upgrades or my relationship with LTA prior to writing this. *


----------



## MojoAudio

doctorjazz said:


> So, now I'm not clear on this...will Ben continue to post here? On a new Head Fi thread? On some other blog? Telepathically? Smoke signals?


 
  
*Just tell me what you want.*
  
 I only have a few more upgrade posts: one with anit-resonance mods, one with PCB part changes, and one with the final upgrade with expensive parts.
  
 For such a small amount of additional info I won't start a new thread, though if an mZ2 upgrade thread is started, I would be glad to re-post.
  
 I doubt I'll clean up my previous posts to put them into a blog on my website...rather a narrow audience.
  
 Please write me on Head-Fi PM and let me know if you want more upgrade info from me and if you want Dr. Blue to do some evaluations of the various upgrades.
  
 No point in us doing it if that's not what people want.
  
 BTW, no matter what you all decide, I couldn't post the next upgrades for another week or three...I'm still waiting for parts.
 If enough of you are interested, possibly next week Dr. Blue could evaluate the "stripped down" mZ2 and tell you all if he can actually hear anything


----------



## Greggo

Thanks for all the great posts MojoAudio, I have no trouble scrolling through when I am not in the mood. Much of the info here is applicable to any component in any system, so I am learning a lot.
  
 For those of you with both Cavalli and MicroZOTL2 experience, please keep sharing your impressions. I have a Liquid Carbon on the way, but I am always thinking about what might be next if my budget allows, all part of the fun...
  
 Folks at LTA, I sure am super interested in hearing more about your experiments in the world of electrostats. Especially if you figure out how to offer one amp that can deliver the goods on electrostats and dynamic/planar headphones. I don't see myself spending more than 2k on an amp, unless.... it could do it all and stay under 4k. That would really be something and I have to believe there are many more headphone enthusiasts like me who would jump on such a product.


----------



## doctorjazz

mojoaudio said:


> doctorjazz said:
> 
> 
> > So, now I'm not clear on this...will Ben continue to post here? On a new Head Fi thread? On some other blog? Telepathically? Smoke signals?
> ...




As I mentioned, I'd like to see all of it on this thread, finding it interesting indeed! I may not actually do it myself, but the options, and improvements (and DrBlue's impressions would indeed be welcome as well), are of interest to me.


----------



## jamato8

greggo said:


> Thanks for all the great posts MojoAudio, I have no trouble scrolling through when I am not in the mood. Much of the info here is applicable to any component in any system, so I am learning a lot.
> 
> For those of you with both Cavalli and MicroZOTL2 experience, please keep sharing your impressions. I have a Liquid Carbon on the way, but I am always thinking about what might be next if my budget allows, all part of the fun...
> 
> Folks at LTA, I sure am super interested in hearing more about your experiments in the world of electrostats. Especially if you figure out how to offer one amp that can deliver the goods on electrostats and dynamic/planar headphones. I don't see myself spending more than 2k on an amp, unless.... it could do it all and stay under 4k. That would really be something and I have to believe there are many more headphone enthusiasts like me who would jump on such a product.


 

 The LC is a great little balanced amp, as balanced is where it comes to life but the MZ2 is in another stage as far as performance, IMO. The MZ2 is a TOTL desktop amp for a price that would normally get you much less in sound quality. Enjoy each one but in all honesty, and IMO, they don't really compare.


----------



## Greggo

jamato8 said:


> The LC is a great little balanced amp, as balanced is where it comes to life but the MZ2 is in another stage as far as performance, IMO. The MZ2 is a TOTL desktop amp for a price that would normally get you much less in sound quality. Enjoy each one but in all honesty, and IMO, they don't really compare.


 
 Thank you for that.
  
 Looking forward to more comparisons, especially regarding best pairings headphone wise.


----------



## jamato8

greggo said:


> Thank you for that.
> 
> Looking forward to more comparisons, especially regarding best pairings headphone wise.


 

 I can use all my headphone effectively with the MZ2 due to its low output impedance and great ability to drive them with ease. Excellent bass response, wonderful transparency, natural separation of sound, as in singers and instruments. A wide and deep soundstage, It pretty much does it all and in a way that brings the music to you with a naturalness and ease that most people would love.
  
 Sadly, not enough people have enjoyed the MZ2. lol 
  
 I will add, that what I don't like about the MZ2, not trying to be funny, I keep wanting to put on the headphones all the time and I have other things I need to do.


----------



## willsw

My comments about clogging the thread and bring better suited to a blog were based on worry, but user response says otherwise. I still think it should be also on the blog for later ease of accessibility and being archived.

This thread is about everything MicroZOTL2. Everything should be here.


----------



## jamato8

Using some VT99 Tung-sol black glass flat plate. Nice, very solid sounding. Different from my round plate. A little more lower high freq. It doesn't need this but but there is a real engrossing sound to this combination. Again with the 7062 tubes.


----------



## doctorjazz

Completely agree with Jamato8, LC is a good amp, ZOTL is in another class (and costs more). Using HE-1000, and have had a ZMF Omni for a while, makes beautiful music with both.


----------



## zachawry

I wonder if at some point LTA or Mojo would offer a send-in upgrade service for people like me who would want the works but have no tools, knowledge, time, skills, courage, or intelligence.


----------



## doctorjazz

Been had hinted he might do something of the sort if there was interest. I believe he's still in the investigative stage of the upgraded, from what he's posted. Sounds like there might be some interest, though. I'd consider it (depending on cost and such...)


----------



## defbear

Both Mojo and LTA has assured me Mojo Audio is on the side of Truth Justice and the microZ way. I will be dissapointed if the upgrade posts no longer appear in this thread.


----------



## bazelio

Hey @doctorjazz in regards to the ZMF Omni, could you give me an idea how much sound it emits while on someone's head?  Like maybe listen in the room while your SO wears it?  I'm trying to figure out if it'd fly in an office environment where I don't want to annoy others around me.
  
 Thanks!


----------



## defbear

mojoaudio said:


> Hi Richard.
> 
> The truth about mechanical resonance noise is that it is partly from the electronic parts, partly from the electronic component (chassis + parts), partly from the audio rack/furniture, partly from the room, partly from the floor, and even partly music related.
> 
> ...


It boggles the mind. I'll raise the roof but not the floor. One of my associates put in a Bamboo floor for his successful recording studio for much the same reason. 

This is OT but you are the only guru I can ask. One person had Headphone Cable Supports lifting the cable above the table, surface or whatever. And he raved about how much better it sounded. What do you think. Anything to floating the cable on it's way to your head?


----------



## doctorjazz

My impression from wearing them was, at least for incoming sound, they were more closed than open, didn't hear much of the outside world. But, I'll have my wife give them a try and see how much they leak.


----------



## doctorjazz

As for cable lifts, they have been a part of speaker based Audiophile armamentarium for a long time, you can buy various lifts to keep the various cables separated and off the floor, which is supposed to be better for SQ (am not so good myself with this stuff...)


----------



## defbear

bazelio said:


> Hey @doctorjazz
> in regards to the ZMF Omni, could you give me an idea how much sound it emits while on someone's head?  Like maybe listen in the room while your SO wears it?  I'm trying to figure out if it'd fly in an office environment where I don't want to annoy others around me.
> 
> Thanks!


They are more closed than open but you can hear and be heard. Having worked in cubicle world I would bring my Ether-C's instead unless you have a private office.


----------



## bazelio

defbear said:


> bazelio said:
> 
> 
> > Hey @doctorjazz
> ...


 
  
 Yeah, OK, that's what I thought.  But wanted to ask because I'm considering selling the C's.  Maybe the Blackwood, then...  But based on descriptions, I think the Omni would be closer to what I want sound-wise.


----------



## doctorjazz

@Bazelio...I suppose it depends on the volume you like to listen at, and how close you are to other people at work, so it's hard to say what is good in your work situation. But, I played Billy Joel (she likes him), at a volume comfortable for her, and a bit louder. Being 2 feet away from her, I could hear a tiny bit, but it was not very loud at all, barely audible to me. I'd think it's not disturbing in most situations (and they sound really nice), but if you need complete silence, they don't fit the bill. If a tiny bit of leakage is OK, that's all I noted.


----------



## MojoAudio

defbear said:


> It boggles the mind. I'll raise the roof but not the floor. One of my associates put in a Bamboo floor for his successful recording studio for much the same reason.
> 
> This is OT but you are the only guru I can ask. One person had Headphone Cable Supports lifting the cable above the table, surface or whatever. And he raved about how much better it sounded. What do you think. Anything to floating the cable on it's way to your head?


 
  
 Anything that has to do with AC noise, RFI, or mechanical resonance is VERY system and room dependent.
  
 There are some "known" effects, but one of the biggest piles of BS I've read is when a so called "expert" claims one filter or device is superior in all ways to this or that.
  
 In most cases it is only superior in that specific system/room.
  
 For example, one person may find a SIGNIFICANT improvement in their system's performance by adding anti-resonant treatments, and another person with another system in another room may find that anti-static or grounding treatments gave a significant improvement and anti-resonant treatments gave almost no improvement.
  
 No mystery.
  
 I live in ABQ NM, have a slab floor, and there is almost no humidity - resonance is a minor issue compared to static. 
  
 Another guy lives in a loft in Atlanta with high humidity and wooden floors - resonance is a major issue compared to static.
  
 When I have the time I'll write detailed blogs on these topics...you all know where to find me...for now I recommend you all find inexpensive ways to test some of these factors (like $20 wooden cones, static grounds, and dedicated grounds). Don't waste big $$$ until you KNOW where YOUR issues are.
  
 These are not mZ2 specific topics, so if you're serious, any of you can always contact me off thread.


----------



## bazelio

mojoaudio said:


> I'm a big fan of the better Caddock and Vishay resistors, but they are INSANELY expensive...$6-$13 each
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 Bang for the bulk is not there with Vishay bulk foils nor Caddocks.  In fact, some folks worth listening to don't even think they sound the best.  Example, the folks at Goldpoint have cycled through their fair share of resistors for use in their stepped attenuators.  They have this to say about resistors (click the image to enlarge):


----------



## Wildcatsare1

Sorry for the late 2 cents, this move will end at some point.......

I enjoy reading Ben's/Mojo posts, I am a tinkerer, always have been. So, even if they are far beyond my technical ability I am learning a lot, same with @Jamto8.

I also have the LC/ZOTL 2 combo, the LC is a great little amp, but the ZOTL is end game, especially with the opportunity to take it into mega buck territory.


----------



## crazychile

Does anyone know if the MZOTL2 shorts the inputs when turned off? I'm planning on a Yggdrasil to run to this single ended while the balanced outputs connect to my electrostatic amp. I've heard that amps which short the inputs can cause a problem in a configuration like this.


----------



## sheldaze

crazychile said:


> Does anyone know if the MZOTL2 shorts the inputs when turned off? I'm planning on a Yggdrasil to run to this single ended while the balanced outputs connect to my electrostatic amp. I've heard that amps which short the inputs can cause a problem in a configuration like this.


 
 I'd like to know the same as my plan is to utilize all three outputs from my Gungnir.
 I'm taking my MZ2 to a meet today. If this has not been answered, this evening I will connect a second amplifier and test this out - distortion should be heard from the DAC through the second amplifier, correct?


----------



## MojoAudio

bazelio said:


> Bang for the bulk is not there with Vishay bulk foils nor Caddocks.  In fact, some folks worth listening to don't even think they sound the best.  Example, the folks at Goldpoint have cycled through their fair share of resistors for use in their stepped attenuators.  They have this to say about resistors (click the image to enlarge):


 
  
 Keep in mind that companies like Goldpoint are only comparing resistors that will fit in their attenuators - many of the world's best resistors are are an odd size/shape and could not be used in most attenuator switching frames.
  
 Some examples: Caddock TF020 or Vishay TX2352 "Nude."
  
 From what I understand, David used one of the better Caddock resistors in his >$70K versions of the ZOTL amps.


----------



## jamato8

mojoaudio said:


> Keep in mind that companies like Goldpoint are only comparing resistors that will fit in their attenuators - many of the world's best resistors are are an odd size/shape and could not be used in most attenuator switching frames.
> 
> Some examples: Caddock TF020 or Vishay TX2352 "Nude."
> 
> From what I understand, David used one of the better Caddock resistors in his >$70K versions of the ZOTL amps.


 

 Right and these used for the attenuators that are SMD are of minimum wattage, not applicable to many circuits. I still like the old tants but the Nude are reported to be exceptional, at an exceptional cost. As you have noted, since there are only a few needed in the signal path, it might be worth the investment.


----------



## bazelio

mojoaudio said:


> bazelio said:
> 
> 
> > Bang for the bulk is not there with Vishay bulk foils nor Caddocks.  In fact, some folks worth listening to don't even think they sound the best.  Example, the folks at Goldpoint have cycled through their fair share of resistors for use in their stepped attenuators.  They have this to say about resistors (click the image to enlarge):
> ...




$70000 amps aren't really the point as no resistor will turn this amp in to that. So spending 6 bucks or more per resistor here is senseless. The point is that there are many options that DO fit the Goldpoint which ARE sensible candidates here, and the boutique high priced options may not even sound the best.


----------



## MojoAudio

bazelio said:


> $70000 amps aren't really the point as no resistor will turn this amp in to that. So spending 6 bucks or more per resistor here is senseless. The point is that there are many options that DO fit the Goldpoint which ARE sensible candidates here, and the boutique high priced options may not even sound the best.


 
  
 Every link in the chain is important.
  
 If you have a high-res source, high-res headphones, and a high-performance power supply, I have no doubt that your mZ2 could appreciate the best resistors in the world.
  
 On the other hand, the quality of the resistors used in the stock mZ2 are already pretty high, so I doubt it would be worth upgrading the resistors in your mZ2 unless everything else in the signal path was upgraded. 
  
 FYI, I'm going to be using the $6.50 each Caddock resistors when I upgrade my mZ2 so a few of you on this thread will be able to report how much of an improvement (if any) is heard


----------



## bazelio

mojoaudio said:


> bazelio said:
> 
> 
> > $70000 amps aren't really the point as no resistor will turn this amp in to that. So spending 6 bucks or more per resistor here is senseless. The point is that there are many options that DO fit the Goldpoint which ARE sensible candidates here, and the boutique high priced options may not even sound the best.
> ...




It wouldn't be hard to push the price tag of the MZ2 well in to the territory of superior tube amps and beyond with all sorts of "signal path upgrades" and PSUs. By all means, have at it, and enjoy. 

For others, realistically any amplifier topology has its tradeoffs and limitations that can not be undone by boutique BOMs. Many upon many experienced and respected engineers will advise strongly against their use as well. It's the law of diminishing returns. Design better to begin with, rather than to (attempt to) recover performance after the fact. If I can produce spectral analysis showing inaudible noise levels, virtually immeasurable distortion levels, nearly ideal square waves at audible frequencies and phase linearity with a particular topology using parts from Mouser then I'm not going to be having conversations about $6 resistors. And there are examples of this. Sure, maybe if I have a capacitively coupled output stage and I want to start to inject a certain signature by departing from ideal, then may experiment here and there but no need for a wholesale signal path BOM swap to exotic and I'd not be trying to overcome design decisions by throwing money at high priced parts.


----------



## willsw

crazychile said:


> Does anyone know if the MZOTL2 shorts the inputs when turned off? I'm planning on a Yggdrasil to run to this single ended while the balanced outputs connect to my electrostatic amp. I've heard that amps which short the inputs can cause a problem in a configuration like this.







sheldaze said:


> I'd like to know the same as my plan is to utilize all three outputs from my Gungnir.
> I'm taking my MZ2 to a meet today. If this has not been answered, this evening I will connect a second amplifier and test this out - distortion should be heard from the DAC through the second amplifier, correct?




We do not short the inputs when the amp is turned off. No worries.


----------



## crazychile

willsw said:


> crazychile said:
> 
> 
> > Does anyone know if the MZOTL2 shorts the inputs when turned off? I'm planning on a Yggdrasil to run to this single ended while the balanced outputs connect to my electrostatic amp. I've heard that amps which short the inputs can cause a problem in a configuration like this.
> ...




Perfect. Thanks.


----------



## MojoAudio

bazelio said:


> It wouldn't be hard to push the price tag of the MZ2 well in to the territory of superior tube amps and beyond with all sorts of "signal path upgrades" and PSUs. By all means, have at it, and enjoy.
> 
> For others, realistically any amplifier topology has its tradeoffs and limitations that can not be undone by boutique BOMs. Many upon many experienced and respected engineers will advise strongly against their use as well. It's the law of diminishing returns. Design better to begin with, rather than to (attempt to) recover performance after the fact. If I can produce spectral analysis showing inaudible noise levels, virtually immeasurable distortion levels, nearly ideal square waves at audible frequencies and phase linearity with a particular topology using parts from Mouser then I'm not going to be having conversations about $6 resistors. And there are examples of this. Sure, maybe if I have a capacitively coupled output stage and I want to start to inject a certain signature by departing from ideal, then may experiment here and there but no need for a wholesale signal path BOM swap to exotic and I'd not be trying to overcome design decisions by throwing money at high priced parts.


 
  
 I don't know if your realize this Bazelio, but the Mystique v2 DAC you're listening to has $13 each Vishay resistors in the signal path as well as several other boutique parts.
  
 Similarly, the mZ2 circuit is so minimalist, I believe we could hear ANY significant parts upgrade.
  
 We did a lot of blind listening tests this past year using my mZ2 as the reference. My head engineer, Frank, doesn't believe in any of these boutique parts. Part of why we did so many of these blind listening tests was to settle a bet between Frank and I if there was any consistency in the audible differences audiophiles claim to hear with these boutique parts.
  
 Result: I won the bet.
  
 Nearly 100% of the time the audiophiles not only could hear the differences in the parts, but nearly all of them agreed as to which parts sounded better. Actually significantly more of a correlation that I would have expected.
  
 BTW, Mouser sells all the Caddock line and most of the Vishay line of resistors. I've also read that NASA and aerospace companies use the expensive Caddock resistors in space craft, satellites, and telecommunication systems. I certainly can't vouch for every boutique audiophile part, but obviously there is something "real" about these resistors, if they are carried by normal electronics wholesalers like Mouser, and used in the aerospace industry.
  
 Of course hearing a difference and the difference being worth the $$$ are two totally different things


----------



## bazelio

Deleted.


----------



## edstrelow

mojoaudio said:


> OK...you asked for it.
> 
> First thing you need to understand is how mechanical vibration translates into "noise" in an audio component.
> 
> ...




Very interesting. I agree that undamped vibrations cause a lot of distortion in audio equipment. My particular concern has been headphones themselves and I have been using mostly self-stick patches of sorbothane with great results. All the issues of microphonics are present, in probably a larger form in headphones and even loudspeakers.

I started riding this hobbyhorse some years back with the Stax SR007 but have since moved on to others in the Stax lineup. The benefits of damping headphones are as best as I can tell universal, i.e. headphones are inherently bad at getting rid of excess energy.

However this is by no means my own original finding, Sennheiser has been using some kind of damping material for some years in the headband of the HD800 and I would imagine doing something similar in its new $50K super stat phone. More recently Grado's new "e series" refers to a proprietary polycarbonate which appears to be capable of similar damping. So I think this is a coming trend.

I use sorb footers on some equipment but have patches of self-stick sorb are more effective. I have made some efforts to determine the best size/duro of sorb on phones, but have only a few data points on what is a very complicated problem.


----------



## MojoAudio

edstrelow said:


>


 

  Very cool Edstrelow


----------



## defbear

I on the other hand perch my amps on top of or inside milk carton crates and try to get them so they won't wobble.


----------



## Wildcatsare1

Hey Guys I am going to do a couple "ad on's" to follow up on my ZOTL 2 review. The first will focus on Ben's (Mojo Audio) input, power components and possibly tweaks. 

The second will be high efficiency speakers to mate with the ZOTL 2, desktop or floor standees. Here I need some recomendations on which manufacturers to contact, and the products to be selected. (Though this part could turn into a ZOTL 10 review with the speakers selected). Any assistance is appreciated and I believe in giving due credit in "ink", so contributions will be recognized.

As always, thank you!


----------



## doctorjazz

Klipsch RP-150M was the speaker Steve Gutenberg used for his CNET review, and he felt they worked well together.


----------



## Wildcatsare1

doctorjazz said:


> Klipsch RP-150M was the speaker Steve Gutenberg used for his CNET review, and he felt they worked well together.




Thank you Doc, was thinking about the RPM160, called into Klipsch, waiting for a response. May check with Steve and see who he works with at Klipsch.


----------



## willsw

wildcatsare1 said:


> Thank you Doc, was thinking about the RPM160, called into Klipsch, waiting for a response. May check with Steve and see who he works with at Klipsch.




After Steve's review, since the Klipsch were on sale and I needed new speakers at the time, I bought the RP-160 bookshelves, and they've been lovely for my little apartment living room, through the MicroZOTL2. Had the ZOTL40 over for a few days to take pictures, and heard the Klipschs at their full potential as well. Very nice speakers, especially for the price. I'll look around to see if anyone has let us know about other pairings, but none come to mind, though I know the MicroZOTL2 is being used for speakers by a few people.


----------



## Solarium

Can anyone provide any input in a comparison between the MicroZOTL2 and the Bottlehead Mainline, pairing with a Mojo and HD800?


----------



## jamato8

I am running some Tung-sol round plate black glass 6SN7 right now. Nice, a full sound and naturally detailed but IMO, no better than the 6F8G round plate, which sells for much less money. This is with the Pioneer SE Master1 wired with the Whiplash Twau 8 plait cable. 
  
 As these TS RP continue to burn in, as they didn't have any real time on them, they are improving. Detail has gone up and a better soundstage is now present. Also a better bass foundation.


----------



## dogears

very tempting specially with the "preamp" reviews


----------



## MojoAudio

solarium said:


> Can anyone provide any input in a comparison between the MicroZOTL2 and the Bottlehead Mainline, pairing with a Mojo and HD800?


 
  
 To begin with, the HD800s have VERY high impedance, which means less than 20% of the headphone amps in the world can drive them to anywhere near their potential.
  
 The Bottlhead amp is not one of the amps I would recommend for HD800s without modifying the output stage for high impedance headphones (requires serious re-engineering).
  
 On the other hand, the physics of the ZOTL output stage make the mZ2 ideal for high impedance headphones like the HD800s.
  
 At our Head-Fi meetup recently one person had a Bottlehead amp that we compared to the mZ2 on headphones that are much easier to drive, such as Ether Cs or the upgraded Oppos.
  
 The Bootlehead amp sounded warm, beautiful, and intoxicating, BUT far less resolving, far less extended, far less tight, and far less natural than the mZ2.
  
 If you want a romantic sound that covers up all the flaws in a mediocre source and bad recordings, go with the Bottlehead amp.
  
 If you want accurate time, tune, tone, and timbre, along with extension and dynamics, then I would recommend the mZ2.
  
 Of course with an mZ2 and HD800s (my last year's love) you will hear EVERY flaw in the recording and your source. You're talking about a "Ferrari" system that "feels every pebble in the road."
  
 In general, with HD800s I would recommend upgrading the cable to that Peacock MkII cable or some other cable with a warmer tonal balance, as well as upgrading the stock tubes in your mZ2 to NOS tubes. 
  
 On the other hand, the Bottlehead amp with headphones that work well with it (not HD800s) will make almost any source and any recording sound lovely.


----------



## krumley7882

mojoaudio said:


> To begin with, the HD800s have VERY high impedance, which means less than 20% of the headphone amps in the world can drive them to anywhere near their potential.
> 
> The Bottlhead amp is not one of the amps I would recommend for HD800s without modifying the output stage for high impedance headphones (requires serious re-engineering).
> 
> ...


 

 Appreciate this feedback!  While I haven't ventured into owning an HD800....yet.  It is always great to hear about another solid HP pairing with the ZOTL.


----------



## Greggo

Speaking of which... what are the stand out headphone pairings with this amp so far? If I recall correctly from earlier in this thread, it is not a warm amp or a cold amp but pretty plays it close to neutral. For those of you who own or have listened extensively, do you use a warm DAC or just love the pure detail without gaming the system in any way?
  
 I have been leaning towards a warm balance for my eventually completed system as the center piece headphone for me will be the HD800S.


----------



## MojoAudio

greggo said:


> Speaking of which... what are the stand out headphone pairings with this amp so far? If I recall correctly from earlier in this thread, it is not a warm amp or a cold amp but pretty plays it close to neutral. For those of you who own or have listened extensively, do you use a warm DAC or just love the pure detail without gaming the system in any way?
> 
> I have been leaning towards a warm balance for my eventually completed system as the center piece headphone for me will be the HD800S.


 
  
 Don't drink the Kool-Aide Greggo.
  
 ANY softness or coloration in your front end components comes at the expense of the time, tune, tone, and timbre of the music - once lost it can never be recovered.
  
 I always advise people that if they want a musically accurate system that leans a bit to the warm side, that they should add the warmth at the last possible place in their signal chain.
  
 In your situation, I would recommend the neutral mZ2 with romantic NOS tubes, like the VT-99, in the output stage.
  
 If that doesn't warm up your HD800s enough, then change your cable to something made from pure copper that leans toward warm...that Peacock wire I recommended is prefect and won't cost you an arm and a leg.
  
 And this is coming from a person that spent most of the past year living with and loving HD800s with my mZ2


----------



## defbear

My hd800 and MZL sound great together. Since I have the hd800 I'm not going to purchase a set of hd800S. But if I did not have either pair, I would be tempted by the hd800S. Any reason to prefer the hd800 to the hd800S? Especially for those with or looking to get. MicroZOTL 2.


----------



## MojoAudio

defbear said:


> My hd800 and MZL sound great together. Since I have the hd800 I'm not going to purchase a set of hd800S. But if I did not have either pair, I would be tempted by the hd800S. Any reason to prefer the hd800 to the hd800S? Especially for those with or looking to get. MicroZOTL 2.


 
  
 I'm seeing like-new used HD800s for <$900 (that's what I paid for my new open box set including shipping).
  
 Since I know the new HD800S cable is still not up to the level I want (still silver plated copper), and since I know there are several good HD800 ear cup mods that can make them sound like the HD800S (or better), I chose to get the HD800 with a better cable, and ended up with better sounding headphones for less $$$.
  
 I also believe the silver finish on the HD800 will look better longer.


----------



## Wildcatsare1

defbear said:


> My hd800 and MZL sound great together. Since I have the hd800 I'm not going to purchase a set of hd800S. But if I did not have either pair, I would be tempted by the hd800S. Any reason to prefer the hd800 to the hd800S? Especially for those with or looking to get. MicroZOTL 2.




Second, or third, absolutely love the MZ2 with my HD800 (can't speak to the "S"), plus it sounds great with my LCD3f, K7XX. Next will be playing with tubes and Ben's (Mojo) power solutions.


----------



## crazychile

Common OTL amps generally work best with high impedance transducers and not so good with low impedance. Since the MZOTL2 design departs from standard OTLs in some ways, does this do anything to overcome the issues with low impedance headphones? Specifically, I'm interested in the MZOTL2 with something like Fostex TH-X00, or TH-900s. but also if I bought this amp, it would be used with all my non-electrostatic headphones. Many of which are in the 25-65 ohm range.
  
 Thanks.


----------



## sheldaze

crazychile said:


> Common OTL amps generally work best with high impedance transducers and not so good with low impedance. Since the MZOTL2 design departs from standard OTLs in some ways, does this do anything to overcome the issues with low impedance headphones? Specifically, I'm interested in the MZOTL2 with something like Fostex TH-X00, or TH-900s. but also if I bought this amp, it would be used with all my non-electrostatic headphones. Many of which are in the 25-65 ohm range.
> 
> Thanks.


 
 I'm still waiting for my PurpleHearts.
 MicroZOTL2 sounds like heaven on my 32-ohm Grados


----------



## crazychile

sheldaze said:


> crazychile said:
> 
> 
> > Common OTL amps generally work best with high impedance transducers and not so good with low impedance. Since the MZOTL2 design departs from standard OTLs in some ways, does this do anything to overcome the issues with low impedance headphones? Specifically, I'm interested in the MZOTL2 with something like Fostex TH-X00, or TH-900s. but also if I bought this amp, it would be used with all my non-electrostatic headphones. Many of which are in the 25-65 ohm range.
> ...


 

 Thanks. I thought I had read that somewhere before but sometimes it's hard to keep all the different thread details straight. I have a pair of Purplehearts on order also. I'm hoping I'll like them well enough to not feel I need to go to the TH-900s.


----------



## zachawry

My MZ2 works wonders with my relatively-hard-to-drive-well Alpha Primes and Ethers. Not lacking in power for anything reasonable (i.e. anything but HE-6 etc.).


----------



## willsw

crazychile said:


> Common OTL amps generally work best with high impedance transducers and not so good with low impedance. Since the MZOTL2 design departs from standard OTLs in some ways, does this do anything to overcome the issues with low impedance headphones? Specifically, I'm interested in the MZOTL2 with something like Fostex TH-X00, or TH-900s. but also if I bought this amp, it would be used with all my non-electrostatic headphones. Many of which are in the 25-65 ohm range.
> 
> Thanks.


 
  
 The MicroZOTL2's output impedance is 2 ohms and general advice is that the minimum impedance you want when matching a headphone to an amp is the amp's impedance multiplied by 8. So, non-scientifically but generally, the MicroZOTL2 should match well with anything 16 ohms or above. Non-theoretically but in practice so far, this is absolutely true.


----------



## jamato8

crazychile said:


> Common OTL amps generally work best with high impedance transducers and not so good with low impedance. Since the MZOTL2 design departs from standard OTLs in some ways, does this do anything to overcome the issues with low impedance headphones? Specifically, I'm interested in the MZOTL2 with something like Fostex TH-X00, or TH-900s. but also if I bought this amp, it would be used with all my non-electrostatic headphones. Many of which are in the 25-65 ohm range.
> 
> Thanks.


 

 The MZ2 is not a traditional OTL. As noted above the output impedance is in a decent range and much lower than a normal OTL. I find it does great with my TH900 with zero problems driving them. Excellent bass and very open sounding.


----------



## defbear

I have th900's and ether-C's. I wanted a TOTL SE amp for the th900's. I'm not dissapointed. The real surprise are the ether-c's with the microZOTL. Detailed, open and euphonic at the same time. Glorious.


----------



## drbluenewmexico

UPGRADING THE microZOTL2:   a collaborative project with Ben Z from Mojo Audio, Part One
  
 Yesterday i began a series of listening tests with a modified microZOTL2 that Ben Zwikel , he'd of Mojo-Audio
 brought over. this is the first of a series of upgrade listening experiments to see what different mods help the
 ZOTL2 bring maximum performance to headphone listening.
  
 I introduced Ben to the ZOTL2 when i was rereleased, having had the original one for years. Ben fell in love with sound and used it
 to design and test his TOTL DACs and power supplies he designs as Mojo Audio. This newly modified ZOTL2 was
 a stripped down version, with NO NEW PARTS added, no new wiring, following Ben's philosophy of "less is more" it is the orginal
 identical to my ZOTL2 prototype but with:
 power knob and circuit removed (powers on directly from Joule V power supply)
 power amp output and speaker outputs completely removed.
 shared circuit paths decoupled and re routed (but with same wires) to separate signal from source)
 no unused circuits remain.  
  
 Testing included two headphones, the X00 Massdrop Mahogany phones and HiFiMan400i with upgraded speaker wires
 Signal path included my usual macbook air running Media Center 21, and Tidal, fed to a usb VLink with optical output
 to Mojo-Audo Mystique V1 DAC, with Mojo Audio interconnects into the ZOTL2.
  
 Test tracks included Joe Bonamassa and Randall Bramblett, excellent blues recordings....
  
 Results:   My untouched Prototype ZOTL2 was all heated up and ready when Ben arrived and we listened to a number of cuts of the blues
 before switching it out for Ben's stripped down "hot rod" MicroZOTL2, which described as "like going from a good sedan to a hot rod stock car"
 There were no new parts or tubes in the new version, only less.  the new case had holes in it where the power knob and extra outputs had been.
 the top was off, otherwise it looked just the same.  there were less wires inside also, as all unnecessary signal paths had been eliminated
 Ben can tell you exactly what was taken out.
  
 Upon hearing the stripped down "hod rod" version for the first time, i immediately began to smile and tap my foot
 The PRAT was significantly improved from my stock unit. The sound was more liquid, the vocals clearer, the textures more
 fine detailed, the soundstage bigger, the whole system more RESOLVING and MUSICAL.
 I looked at Ben and he looked and Me and grabbed the phones off my head.  He started laughing wildly, being a MAD SCIENTIST
 and audio engineer, and smiled. I could hardly talk.
  
 The stripped down hot rock ZOTL2 was 20-30% clearer and more resolving, kind of like the jump in performance i got when upgrading
 my power supply from the stock one included to the JOULE V battery power supply.  It sounded like a new amplifier, not just a tiny
 amount of improvement, a WOW improvement.
  
 Ben is leaving the modified unit with me for a week why i try it out with different power supplies and types of music.
 His next experiment to upgrade the actual internal components with new silver wire, capacitors, attenuator pot, etc etc etc.
 I looking forward to how forward he can push the resolution of this already wonderful amplifier into the stratosphere of TOTL performance.
 stay tuned....back in about ten days with more listening observations on a further upgraded ZOTL2.


----------



## doctorjazz

Blue, keep the impressions coming (though I'm afraid, as usual, your impressions will cost me some dinero)


----------



## drbluenewmexico

doctorjazz said:


> Blue, keep the impressions coming (though I'm afraid, as usual, your impressions will cost me some dinero)


 

 will do! we now offer the DAY OF DOOM Zotl upgrade credit card through Bank of Mojo, or should...


----------



## doctorjazz

I'll just have to sell my family into slavery...


----------



## zach915m

drbluenewmexico said:


> UPGRADING THE microZOTL2:   a collaborative project with Ben Z from Mojo Audio, Part One


 
  
 I wonder if the Mojo Audio upgrades and other manifestations of the non stock ZOTL deserves its own thread?  I really love my stock unit and LTA PSU and am not interested in spending the time or money to strip it down and/or read about it here, but I'm sure many people may be and could congregate on a separate thread?
  
 If I am in the minority others can definitely put me in my place and I'll shut it down!


----------



## bazelio

> I wonder if the Mojo Audio upgrades and other manifestations of the non stock ZOTL deserves its own thread?


 
  
  
 Yes, it does belong in a thread to itself, IMO.


----------



## doctorjazz

I'm OK either way. Tend to dislike having multiple threads on the same gear (like LC), but I can understand if some have no interest in this aspect of ZOTLology...


----------



## willsw

doctorjazz said:


> I'm OK either way. Tend to dislike having multiple threads on the same gear (like LC), but I can understand if some have no interest in this aspect of ZOTLology...




Mr. Mojo has an eye for what can improve many components, not just the MicroZOTL2. He does do an incredible job of optimizing our amp, but a thread for Mojo Upgrades would leave room for some other simple improvements I know he can give regarding other equipment. I'm sure if he cracked open an LC he'd have a few suggestions.


----------



## sheldaze

I am definitely enjoying the information. I have no problems moving it to another thread to keep this one a little more (ahem) linear.
  
 But at the same time, I would not want to have happen to the new thread what occurred with the Liquid Carbon thread(s), which started sprouting about one new thread every month or so of the wait. So move to another thread - sure! But please keep it in one new thread.
  
 Thank you!


----------



## drbluenewmexico

doctorjazz said:


> I'll just have to sell my family into slavery...


 

 PERHAPS a short term lease?


----------



## MojoAudio

Actually I have very little more to post on upgrades.
  
 I'll likely post a few photos of my personal INSANELY upgraded mZ2 and leave it to the rest of you to decide what else you want or don't want on your thread. 
  
 A series of upgrade posts like those takes quite a bit of my time and the main reason I posted all that was that I've been getting several mZ2 upgrade requests every month.
  
 Nearly every customer that purchased one of our power supplies for their mZ2 asked about additional upgrades.
  
 You'll never see me do a series of upgrade posts like those on any other forum or for any other companies product.
 I'm just a SUPER fan of the mZ2 circuit and have many friends/customers that also own and love the mZ2 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Those upgrade posts were a one time gift Head-Fi...no repeat performances...I don't give trade secrets away to just anyone.
  
 If you want the people that are auditioning my upgraded mZ2 and reviewing it to start a new thread, or to only post a link to their reviews,  please let them know.
  
 The other reason I posted on this thread was that I would not want people to buy "too much PSU for their system" and not be able to appreciate the performance upgrade. There are many people that read a professional review on amps and do not realize that they would need a system with an equally resolving front and back end to make purchasing that product worth their $$$.
  
*I would guess that if I auditioned most of your mZ2 systems I would be recommending a source upgrade before a power supply upgrade. *
  
 Also, my company offers 45-day no-risk auditions on all our products, so pushing people into upgrades beyond the resolution of the rest of their system would only result in unnecessary returns that cost me $$$.  That makes no sense. We offer a 45-day no-risk audition on all our products because I would never want one of my customers to suffer from buyer's remorse.
  
 Though many of you have kindly recommended Mojo Audio doing more upgrades on other products, I'm not particularly interested in getting back into that business (been there, done that). I do upgrades for my good friends, like Dr. Blue, but it is not something my company has done since 2010.
  
 But since I've already opened up this can of worms, I will do mZ2 upgrades for any of you less techie mZ2 lovers that contact me off forum.
 Also, if you want to discuss anything music reproduction related in detail, please contact me off forum...I'm always happy to assist a fellow music lover


----------



## doctorjazz

Well, I very much appreciate the posts, will be sorry to see them go. One day I may even get over my fear of soldering my fingers to the word, and make the DIY cable you described. Thanks for the interesting posts.
(I'm writing a review of the Joule v5 for Headphone Guru, and I don't want to spoil it before it appears, but, long story short, it is a worthwhile upgrade to the stock switching power supply, and to the LTA LPS (which is a good, lower cost option).


----------



## Wildcatsare1

I'll second the good Doctor's Post, while possessing ten thumbs, I enjoy reading about upgrades. I have yet to find anything that's perfect (okay my Wife's very close), so tweaks and medications that squeeze the next 10% of musical performance out of a component are highly desirable.

Ben, would you reconsider starting a separate thread with a bit more of the "how to" on your tweaks for the tecnnically inept, but adventurous among us?


----------



## zachawry

wildcatsare1 said:


> I'll second the good Doctor's Post, while possessing ten thumbs, I enjoy reading about upgrades. I have yet to find anything that's perfect (okay my Wife's very close), so tweaks and medications that squeeze the next 10% of musical performance out of a component are highly desirable.
> 
> Ben, would you reconsider starting a separate thread with a bit more of the "how to" on your tweaks for the tecnnically inept, but adventurous among us?


 

 I agree. I am an opponent of Thread Proliferation as well, but one extra thread for the MZ2 shouldn't be too much. 
  
 That way I can unabashedly ask a bunch of stupid questions. 
  
 I'm not willing to do too much on my own, but I could do some basic things. Personally speaking, if some kind soul would make a Youtube video of some of the easier changes (like how to swap out the pot?), that would help immensely.


----------



## zachawry

Is there a compelling reason to unplug heaphones when using the pre-amp outs? I tried using the pre-amp outs with my headphones still in, and didn't really hear a difference.
  
 (Can I just mention how _*happy*_ I am with the pre-amp outs? This means I don't have to buy a duplicate source and DAC to feed my stereo system. And it sounds better than it ever did before!)


----------



## jamato8

After listening to some good NOS Tungsol black glass round plate and a few other 6SN7 types and comparing to the 6F8G types, I don't find the 6F8G to be euphonic or distort the music in some unnatural way. I do find that a good 6F8G to be very musical in a natural way allowing for a very good soundstage, when recorded this way, and a quality treatment of the frequencies in the audible range. I am using some Tungsol black glass flat plate right now. Very good with the 7062 Amperex.


----------



## MojoAudio

> Ben, would you reconsider starting a separate thread with a bit more of the "how to" on your tweaks for the tecnnically inept, but adventurous among us?


 
 Sorry Wildcatsare1, but you can't expect me to give away all my trade secrets 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 And I would imagine there would be some issues with the admin of Head-Fi. The ONLY reason I was allowed to post all that mZ2 upgrade stuff was that LTA petitioned Head-Fi to allow it. You guys should thank LTA for being so open minded and generous.
  
 On the other hand, if any of you that are not in the trade wanted to do something like that, you may get me and other people in the trade to poke our noses in once in a while and drop a tip or two here and there.
  
 For example, I've already upgraded my personal Stax T1 amp, so if someone that was not from the trade started a Stax T1 upgrade thread, I would certainly be reading it, and I may have something to contribute on a personal level, since I have no professional association with Stax.
  
 Doe that make any sense?
  


zachawry said:


> I'm not willing to do too much on my own, but I could do some basic things. Personally speaking, if some kind soul would make a Youtube video of some of the easier changes (like how to swap out the pot?), that would help immensely.


 
  
 There is SO much info on electronics and DIY upgrading already on the web. You probably won't find a video on replacing the attenuator in an mZ2, but a person that is generally handy could likely read my posts and then watched a few You Tube videos on replacing attenuators, connectors, and switches, and connect the dots so to speak.
  
 IMPORTANT: If you're not one of those "handy" men, I wouldn't recommend DIY electronics (cables are cool). Hitting your thumb with a hammer may be painful, but it isn't FATAL like getting hundreds of volts shocking your heart 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Another option would be your local Head-Fi community. We have quite a strong Head-Fi group here in ABQ. Among the thirty or so that came to our first meeting, there were three professional engineers that were high level DIYers and about a half a dozen other guys that do stuff like make cables, swap out parts, and build kits. We even had quite an audience when one of the kit builders with a Bottlehead amp consult with the three engineers on upgrades.
  
 Point being, I recommend building your local Head-Fi community. I have no doubt that there are people in your area that have the DIY skills to read DIY posts like mine and do those upgrades. Consider that I found one engineer at my level a couple years ago in a Santa Fe Audio Society meeting and now the two of us found a third musketeer at a Head-Fi meetup.
  
 I have no doubt that any of you could create a wonderful Head-Fi DIYers group near any major city.
  
 For those of you that are all thumbs and don't live close enough to other DIYers, I have no doubt there is an old school TV or electronics repair guy near your area that could follow any upgrade "recipe" you find on one of these forums.
  
 And you can always send me your mZ2 and I'll have one of my techs upgrade it for you.
  
 I didn't really want to get back in the upgrade business, but it is totally different when I've already done something for myself. The first one always takes 3X as long as doing the same thing again. So since I'm familiar with the mZ2 and Stax T1 from upgrading my own personal amps, it wouldn't be too much trouble if any of you wanted my company to upgrade one of those two specific amps.
  
 That is totally different than my company getting back into the upgrade business.
  
 I'm just afraid of opening up a can of worms so to speak and instead of eliminating several phone calls a month requesting mZ2 upgrades, I'll start getting even more phone calls from people all over the Head-Fi community about upgrading all sorts of stuff.
  
 LOL!
 You have no idea what a PIA it is to be in the custom upgrade business...been there...done that...no thank you on seconds


----------



## bazelio

jamato8 said:


> After listening to some good NOS Tungsol black glass round plate and a few other 6SN7 types and comparing to the 6F8G types, I don't find the 6F8G to be euphonic or distort the music in some unnatural way. I do find that a good 6F8G to be very musical in a natural way allowing for a very good soundstage, when recorded this way, and a quality treatment of the frequencies in the audible range. I am using some Tungsol black glass flat plate right now. Very good with the 7062 Amperex.


 
  
  
@jamato8 Take a look at the 6201s next.  There are some really good ones.  Bigger soundstage (to my surprise) and less treble sparkle than the 7062.  I'm finding them more to my liking whereas previously I thought the 7062 was top dog in the MZ2 circuit for me.  It's no longer the case.


----------



## jamato8

bazelio said:


> @jamato8 Take a look at the 6201s next.  There are some really good ones.  Bigger soundstage (to my surprise) and less treble sparkle than the 7062.  I'm finding them more to my liking whereas previously I thought the 7062 was top dog in the MZ2 circuit for me.  It's no longer the case.


 

 I have a number of them and have used them. There are some differences in the 7062, so it depends upon which one you are using. Also, larger soundstage doesn't always mean more accurate but it is all enjoying the music so whatever works. :^)


----------



## bazelio

jamato8 said:


> bazelio said:
> 
> 
> > @jamato8 Take a look at the 6201s next.  There are some really good ones.  Bigger soundstage (to my surprise) and less treble sparkle than the 7062.  I'm finding them more to my liking whereas previously I thought the 7062 was top dog in the MZ2 circuit for me.  It's no longer the case.
> ...


 
  
 It often means the opposite of more accurate.  And the 7062 is probably more precise with the 6201s being more airy...  although with the Valvo triple mica 6201...  it might just be better to my ears in every way.


----------



## drbluenewmexico

doctorjazz said:


> Well, I very much appreciate the posts, will be sorry to see them go. One day I may even get over my fear of soldering my fingers to the word, and make the DIY cable you described. Thanks for the interesting posts.
> (I'm writing a review of the Joule v5 for Headphone Guru, and I don't want to spoil it before it appears, but, long story short, it is a worthwhile upgrade to the stock switching power supply, and to the LTA LPS (which is a good, lower cost option).


 

 BEN Z from Mojo Audio just took my ZOTL2 and is adding new upgrades to it, including vibration cabinet dampening, seriously improved volume step, hardwired input power plug directly connected upgraded power supply, and improved caps. we haven't even rolled the tubes yet.  i plugged in my old original MicroZOTL amp and it sounded crusty compared to the "less is more " edition
 that Ben had loaned me of the upgraded ZOTL2, which was 30% more fluid, with way better PRAT, soundstage and impact than the stock ZOTL 2.  can't wait until i get mine
 back at the end of the week....im happy to be the listening tester for these audio experiments with the ZOTL2.  the improvements on the less is more upgraded ZOTL that was Ben's
 made my FostexX00 phones just sing in a way they only hinted at before.  the bass was much controlled, the treble more detailed without being harsh, and the midrange more
 forward and lush...they sounded like a way more expensive phone...The original blue micro-ZOTL I'm listening to now while the ZOTL2 is being upgraded is no slouch, but I'm missing
 the upgraded unit already....


----------



## yukihasi

Just got my Meridian 808v5 yesterday and listening to it with microzotl now. One thing I love about mzotl2 is that it always scale well with what you feed it, highly transparent. Whether it's cable or source change, you always hear the difference right away.


----------



## Audio Addict

yukihasi said:


> Just got my Meridian 808v5 yesterday and listening to it with microzotl now. One thing I love about mzotl2 is that it always scale well with what you feed it, highly transparent. Whether it's cable or source change, you always hear the difference right away.


 
  
 I can't believe still looks so much like the 808.2i after all these years.  Even the display looks the same.  I just had the cd drive on my 808.2i replace along with the power caps.
  
 The microzolt2 does look micro against your 808v5.


----------



## dpump

Thanks to Ben from Mojo Audio I was inspired to finally make some changes to my MZ2. I had planned to replace the Alps potentiometer with an attenuator and from past experience I knew I wanted the Khozmo since it has 48-steps instead of 24-steps like the Goldpoint or DACT. Nothing wrong with the DACT -I have one in my Grace 901- or the Goldpoint-had one in a previous preamp-but I sometimes find 24-steps to be a little to soft or loud. The Khozmo gives you 2dB steps on the first 11 clicks and 1dB for the remaining range and that works better for me. The Khozmo is very reasonably priced compared to the DACT and Goldpoint-$179 at Parts Connexion-and was on sale for 20% off. The Khozmo is very large and I thought I had plenty of room for it to fit. Turns out it just barely fit but it worked out perfectly. Also replaced the input switch with an Alco switch with silver contacts and replaced the power connector on the MZ2 and LPS with male/female microphone connectors with a heavier gauge cable.
  
 Also got up the nerve to drill the front panel on the MZ2 and install a balanced Neutrik headphone connector to go with the 1/4" Neutrik connector. Nerve racking drilling a 15/16" hole thru the front panel with a 1/2" drill. Had to get my wife to help hold the MZ2 due to the torque of the drill. Not for the faint of
 heart! As Ben said, the MZ2 isn't a balanced amp, but having a balanced headphone connector wired for single ended lets me use my phones with a balance cable without having to use an adaptor or change cables. Separated some of the cables per Ben's recommendation also.
  
 Overall I'm very pleased. I think the Khozmo made most of the improvement, but the switch and separating the wiring also helped. I changed the power connectors because I was getting noise if I touched the original stock connectors. Think I'm done for now.


----------



## bazelio

Goldpoint also has a 47-point stepped attenuator.


----------



## willsw

dpump said:


>


 
  
 Looks good, dpump! We are using different connectors now - the same type, just shorter, so they fit in place more securely, or at least feel that way. I haven't tested if it gets rid of the noise when you move the power cable. Your heavier gauge cable is definitely a good and relatively simple change. I see we forgot to write your SN on the back, though I guess at that point there was no "we" and it was pretty much just Mark. According to our mostly reliable system, you've got unit #9, if you're curious.


----------



## rigo

Picture of the Khozmo?


----------



## dpump

rigo said:


> Picture of the Khozmo?


 

 The Khozmo is the big silver thing in the middle of the front panel between the 12AT7 input tubes. To see a picture of the Khozmo by itself do a Google search and click on the Khozmo website.


----------



## dpump

bazelio said:


> Goldpoint also has a 47-point stepped attenuator.


 

 I saw the 47-step Goldpoint, but the price is $246. May be better than the Khozmo but to expensive for me!


----------



## bazelio

Yeah a $246 attenuator fails to make sense in this application, but the V47C is $153 if you can solder.


----------



## yukihasi

audio addict said:


> I can't believe still looks so much like the 808.2i after all these years.  Even the display looks the same.  I just had the cd drive on my 808.2i replace along with the power caps.
> 
> The microzolt2 does look micro against your 808v5.



Yeah, since you opened it you probably know it's highly module-based. You can literally send the unit to them and upgrade to V6, just that almost everything inside will be replaced .

BTW, search for the all new meridian ultra dac, you will see something familiar as well :rolleyes:


----------



## BALANCEATOR

It is a curious and unique amplifier, no transformers and has an output impedance of 2 ohms.

 I recently tried a high-end amplifier OTL and loved it.

 I have some speakers. Paradigm special editon 3. Have a sensitivity of 93 dbs. This amp would be able to extort a high quality spl and a room of 15 meters?

 Hopefully get a distributor for Spain.

 Regards
  
 MATEOBCN


----------



## eaglejo

I'd greatly prefer to keep one Zotl2 thread.  Much of the discussion has centered around tube rolling here and then psu's, so why not include all the other tweaks.  it makes it much easier for someone to see the progression.
  
 My experience with the Zotl2 is that it completely scales up.  Previous amp was a highly tweaked Eddie Currrent Balancing Act.


----------



## willsw

balanceator said:


> It is a curious and unique amplifier, no transformers and has an output impedance of 2 ohms.
> 
> 
> I recently tried a high-end amplifier OTL and loved it.
> ...




So far our international interest has been promising, and when we get to our new facilities and things are rolling well enough to cover our local obligations, we'll definitely be acquiring CE and bringing Linear Tube Audio to more markets worldwide.I'm sure I know of some good reviewers to contact, too.


----------



## drbluenewmexico

Kudos to all who continue to explore the potential of the microZOTL2 design!


----------



## willsw

eaglejo said:


> I'd greatly prefer to keep one Zotl2 thread.  Much of the discussion has centered around tube rolling here and then psu's, so why not include all the other tweaks.  it makes it much easier for someone to see the progression.
> 
> My experience with the Zotl2 is that it completely scales up.  Previous amp was a highly tweaked Eddie Currrent Balancing Act.


 
  
 I've said that I think all discussion related to the MicroZOTL2 should be in this thread, there is just the problem that thread was becoming home for discussion of another company's products and services as well, which doesn't help either people interested in the MicroZOTL2 or in Mojo Audio's many offerings. Mojo Audio is not a division of the MicroZOTL2 (obviously) or Linear Tube Audio, so why limit the discussion of that company by nesting it within this thread? I definitely think tweaks done to the MicroZOTL2 by Mojo Audio would properly be located within this thread (as well as any Mojo Audio thread that exists), but it's not a place, I don't think, for a second product, in this case Mojo, to find its exclusive home. It doesn't make sense for either Mojo or the MicroZOTL2 thread.


----------



## jelt2359

eaglejo said:


> I'd greatly prefer to keep one Zotl2 thread.  Much of the discussion has centered around tube rolling here and then psu's, so why not include all the other tweaks.  it makes it much easier for someone to see the progression.
> 
> My experience with the Zotl2 is that it completely scales up.  Previous amp was a highly tweaked Eddie Currrent Balancing Act.




What sort of tweaking does the ecba need?


----------



## bazelio

Speaking of MicroZOTL2 tweaks, I've got an extra custom acrylic top from LTA with holes for the longer power tubes such as 6F8G.  And speaking of those, I have an extra pair of round plates and adapters for anyone interested.   And I'll give you a great deal on all of it.  
  
 Of course I'll post a for sale ad, but wanted the great people of the HF MicroZOTL2 thread to know first.


----------



## bazelio

jelt2359 said:


> eaglejo said:
> 
> 
> > I'd greatly prefer to keep one Zotl2 thread.  Much of the discussion has centered around tube rolling here and then psu's, so why not include all the other tweaks.  it makes it much easier for someone to see the progression.
> ...


 
  
 Well, you know, the Electraprint OPTs with partial silver secondaries aren't good enough.  They must be swapped out for 20W Hashis of course.  :-D


----------



## jelt2359

bazelio said:


> Well, you know, the Electraprint OPTs with partial silver secondaries aren't good enough.  They must be swapped out for 20W Hashis of course.  :-D




Nice. Look forward to hearing your impressions. Transformer rolling makes a big difference indeed!


----------



## bazelio

jelt2359 said:


> bazelio said:
> 
> 
> > Well, you know, the Electraprint OPTs with partial silver secondaries aren't good enough.  They must be swapped out for 20W Hashis of course.  :-D
> ...


 
  
 Sorry, I was being facetious...  I've not heard the Hashimotos, but the Electraprint PSSS used in the ECBA (as far as I recall) are excellent and not a chunk of iron to be "rolled".


----------



## tunes

Will this amp drive the new HE 1000 with enough power to appreciate.its full potential?. Many other tube amps are not powerful enough.


----------



## sheldaze

tunes said:


> Will this amp drive the new HE 1000 with enough power to appreciate.its full potential?. Many other tube amps are not powerful enough.


 
 It is a unique topology, so yes!
 I bought my MicroZOTL2 specifically for my HE-1000 headphones, after listening to the pairing at a local meet. It is powerful enough.


----------



## jamato8

tunes said:


> Will this amp drive the new HE 1000 with enough power to appreciate.its full potential?. Many other tube amps are not powerful enough.


 

 It drives them well, great soundstage and imaging. It does an excellent job with the HE1000. 
  
 Wow, listening to Berlioz: Symphonie Fantastique, Paavo Jarvi. . . great dynamics, soundstage, raises the hair on the back of your neck. Fun stuff!! The MZ2 and the Pioneer SE-Master1. Fun. Whiplash 8 braid to the headphones, special silver IC from the Hugo to the MZ2 and National Union round plate tubes 6F8G. Go to go now.
  
 Now with the HE1000. Beautiful open sound.


----------



## jamato8

I am running 2 Sylvania 6J5 round black plate from metal base early 1940 per channel instead of 6SN7, using an adapter. The 6J5 is like one half of a 6SN7. I also have adapters to use the 76 tube, a single triode, which is an excellent tube. I have those in RCA round black plate, the best IMO. No, these are not exactly the same but for me, close enough to have fun with.


----------



## doctorjazz

jamato8 said:


> I am running 2 Sylvania 6J5 round black plate from metal base early 1940 per channel instead of 6SN7, using an adapter. The 6J5 is like one half of a 6SN7. I also have adapters to use the 76 tube, a single triode, which is an excellent tube. I have those in RCA round black plate, the best IMO.





And????..........


----------



## jamato8

doctorjazz said:


> And????..........


 

 Well the 6J5 adapters need to burn in but I got anxious and wanted to listen to my favorite tube, besides the 27 mesh plate. The sound is excellent, very open and transparent with the RCA 76. I was hearing some sounds in the mid range and hit pause because I thought it might be in the tubes, as in tube noise but it was/is the music, one song so these are very resolving. They aren't bumping the mids because the highs and low end are there as well. But they need time as the adapters and the NOS tubes that I have had for years, need some time. The 76 tubes are the coke bottle shape and to accommodate the size I had to flex the sides of the MZ2 some. No big deal. 
  
 I have 2 76 tubes that are mesh plate, very, very rare but only 2 and I haven't seen any others in years.


----------



## puffmtd

Could someone tell me if the fuse in the microzotl is a fast or slow blow?  I'm afraid I grabbed the wrong tubes earlier tonight and blew the fuse so I thought I might ask if ya'll might have any advice on different fuses.  I noticed some talk about different fuses changing the SQ and since I'm going to change it out, I may as well try a new type of fuse and see it it makes a difference.  Recommendations are welcome.
 I received the Zotl last week and have been completely blown away by the clarity and sound stage this little thing puts out with just the stock tubes.  It really shines with HE1000 and Fostex th-x00. 
 I ordered some Amperex 7062's that should be here next week and any other tube recommendations would be greatly appreciated.  I listen mostly to jazz and classical and the microzotl really does great with both genres.
 I'm happy to be here and looking forward to gaining some tube knowledge from ya'll.


----------



## jamato8

puffmtd said:


> Could someone tell me if the fuse in the microzotl is a fast or slow blow?  I'm afraid I grabbed the wrong tubes earlier tonight and blew the fuse so I thought I might ask if ya'll might have any advice on different fuses.  I noticed some talk about different fuses changing the SQ and since I'm going to change it out, I may as well try a new type of fuse and see it it makes a difference.  Recommendations are welcome.
> I received the Zotl last week and have been completely blown away by the clarity and sound stage this little thing puts out with just the stock tubes.  It really shines with HE1000 and Fostex th-x00.
> I ordered some Amperex 7062's that should be here next week and any other tube recommendations would be greatly appreciated.  I listen mostly to jazz and classical and the microzotl really does great with both genres.
> I'm happy to be here and looking forward to gaining some tube knowledge from ya'll.


 

 Fast blow. I use the fuses for appliances that are a ceramic instead of glass and sand filled fast blow same rating.


----------



## puffmtd

Thank you sir!  I'll pick some of those up and try to be more careful in the future.


----------



## jamato8

The 76 tube used with an adapter is insane for SQ. Very, Very layered and transparent. I need more time on them though as tubes can change as they burn in. The 6SN7W got better and has stayed that way, very good. I also will try the 6J5 again and need to let them burn in but the RCA black round plate is excellent, just like in the preamp I built.


----------



## drbluenewmexico

Im about to get my newly upgraded microZOTL2 back from Ben Z at Mojo Audio after after being
 upgraded with his "less is more " philosophy of audio engineering.  Heard his own ZOTL2 last
 week and it was about 30% clearer without binding posts, preamp outs or twisted wire traffic jams,
 and PRAT was even more amazing.!! power supply connection hard wired....for use with Joule V
 Mojo power supply or other .....
  
 so i surrendered my own ZOTL2 prototype for his tinkering, including the above plus some new
 silver wires, better volume control potentiometer and such. Picking it up in about an hour
 and very excited!!!!  no tube rolling yet even...


----------



## doctorjazz

Go Blue!
Keep us updated!


----------



## defbear

drbluenewmexico said:


> Im about to get my newly upgraded microZOTL2 back from Ben Z at Mojo Audio after after being
> upgraded with his "less is more " philosophy of audio engineering.  Heard his own ZOTL2 last
> week and it was about 30% clearer without binding posts, preamp outs or twisted wire traffic jams,
> and PRAT was even more amazing.!! power supply connection hard wired....for use with Joule V
> ...


I was not aware that the microZOTL stock construction included a Twisted Wire Traffic Jam.


----------



## doctorjazz

You make a right turn after the potentiometer bottleneck, can't missed it


----------



## sheldaze

For those of us sitting on the sideline, would be helpful to include some pricing information for the full-nelson package - seems we are about to read about.
 Regardless, still excited to read impressions!


----------



## doctorjazz

I don't think it has been fully built yet...we're still at the exploring stage, if I understand correctly



sheldaze said:


> For those of us sitting on the sideline, would be helpful to include some pricing information for the full-nelson package - seems we are about to read about.
> Regardless, still excited to read impressions!


----------



## willsw

sheldaze said:


> For those of us sitting on the sideline, would be helpful to include some pricing information for the full-nelson package - seems we are about to read about.
> Regardless, still excited to read impressions!


 
  
 I believe Ben mentioned $3000-$4000 in an email to me regarding the full package - I think this includes the initial $1100 for a standard amp, but I'm not sure. This isn't for-sure info, just what I believe he was referring to. That's also the price range we're shooting for with our next product (not a super MicroZOTL2), though some critical listening tests will determine whether we'll be near the low end or high end of that range. David might have pulled off some magic for this one. And that's all I'll say about that, for a while.


----------



## bazelio

willsw said:


> sheldaze said:
> 
> 
> > For those of us sitting on the sideline, would be helpful to include some pricing information for the full-nelson package - seems we are about to read about.
> ...


 
  
  
 Hi Will.  Why would listening tests determine product price?


----------



## doctorjazz

My understanding is, it is still in the "testing, 1-2-3" stage. Ben is not sure how much of a change the different upgrades will make, say, the potentiometer may make a huge difference, worth doing, some capacitors that seem worthwhile, may not pan out to be that noticeable, or something like that. He's looking not just to replace EVERYTHING, but to get feedback along the way on what makes a big difference, what change is a very small difference, what isn't noticeable at all, and decide what's worthwhile doing. That is why he's making changes sequentially, and stopping at the different stages and having DrBlue do a listening assessment. Or, at least that's what i get from his posts here earlier (don't have this direct from him).


----------



## jelt2359

bazelio said:


> Hi Will.  Why would listening tests determine product price?




I thought he meant "Low" or "high end" of being in the range of a Super mzotl2. 

That being said I do prefer the sound to determine price rather than costs, because that aligns more closely with what I value. With costs- sometimes you're paying more for the fancy faceplate or the "incredible build quality" than the sound.


----------



## willsw

bazelio said:


> Hi Will.  Why would listening tests determine product price?


 
  
 It would determine which circuit we would use, one of which may sound as good or better than the other and require fewer parts and less labor. If it does not, though, we'll want to go with the better sounding, if more expensive, solution. And if that doesn't sound good enough, we'll figure out another route.
  
 If the best sound is less expensive, we're happier because we can price it lower. 
  
 Regarding DoctorJazz's explanation, I think that essentially applies to what we're doing, though is a more accurate description of what Ben is doing.


----------



## zachawry

bazelio said:


> Hi Will.  Why would listening tests determine product price?


 

 Why wouldn't they?


----------



## willsw

After in-house and out-of-house testing, we've decided that it's worthwhile to offer the current production Genalex Gold Lion 12AT7 as an upgrade available at ordering and available to current MicroZOTL2 owners at a price equivalent to the option having been available when they ordered their amps. I've found the Gold Lions to be less bright and feel a bit more detailed than the Tung-sols, and we're now using all Genalex Gold Lion tubes in our ZOTL10 (EL-84s, 12AT7s, 12AU7s) and will soon use them for the 12AU7 and 12AX7 spots in the ZOTL40.
  
 I'll send an email alert and post here when we have the tubes in stock and the option up on the website. We're also waiting on the boards in order to be able to offer the closed-circuit headphone jack, that will disconnect the speaker and preamp outputs when a headphone is plugged in. We made it retrofittable, so if you're comfortable soldering we can send you the parts, or you can ship your amp back to us for installation, if you'd like to change out your locking jack. I'm personally very excited to leave my speakers hooked up.


----------



## drbluenewmexico

doctorjazz said:


> My understanding is, it is still in the "testing, 1-2-3" stage. Ben is not sure how much of a change the different upgrades will make, say, the potentiometer may make a huge difference, worth doing, some capacitors that seem worthwhile, may not pan out to be that noticeable, or something like that. He's looking not just to replace EVERYTHING, but to get feedback along the way on what makes a big difference, what change is a very small difference, what isn't noticeable at all, and decide what's worthwhile doing. That is why he's making changes sequentially, and stopping at the different stages and having DrBlue do a listening assessment. Or, at least that's what i get from his posts here earlier (don't have this direct from him).


 

 thats essentially correct, IMHO...


----------



## zachawry

willsw said:


> After in-house and out-of-house testing, we've decided that it's worthwhile to offer the current production Genalex Gold Lion 12AT7 as an upgrade available at ordering and available to current MicroZOTL2 owners at a price equivalent to the option having been available when they ordered their amps. I've found the Gold Lions to be less bright and feel a bit more detailed than the Tung-sols, and we're now using all Genalex Gold Lion tubes in our ZOTL10 (EL-84s, 12AT7s, 12AU7s) and will soon use them for the 12AU7 and 12AX7 spots in the ZOTL40.
> 
> I'll send an email alert and post here when we have the tubes in stock and the option up on the website. We're also waiting on the boards in order to be able to offer the closed-circuit headphone jack, that will disconnect the speaker and preamp outputs when a headphone is plugged in. We made it retrofittable, so if you're comfortable soldering we can send you the parts, or you can ship your amp back to us for installation, if you'd like to change out your locking jack. I'm personally very excited to leave my speakers hooked up.


 

 That's great to hear. You should totally play up the fact that you can use the same setup for either headphones or speakers. 
  
 I'm not sure if it's worth it for me to ship all the way back to and from Japan, though. 
  
 (Also, I appreciate your solution for avoiding saying "outhouse testing". 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 )


----------



## doctorjazz

What's wrong with "outhouse testing"? Do my best work...


----------



## willsw

zachawry said:


> That's great to hear. You should totally play up the fact that you can use the same setup for either headphones or speakers.
> 
> I'm not sure if it's worth it for me to ship all the way back to and from Japan, though.
> 
> ...


 
  
  


doctorjazz said:


> What's wrong with "outhouse testing"? Do my best work...


 
  
  
 There was definitely outhouse testing involved. What else are headphone extension cords for?


----------



## Bu11dog

willsw said:


> After in-house and out-of-house testing, we've decided that it's worthwhile to offer the current production Genalex Gold Lion 12AT7 as an upgrade available at ordering and available to current MicroZOTL2 owners at a price equivalent to the option having been available when they ordered their amps. I've found the Gold Lions to be less bright and feel a bit more detailed than the Tung-sols, and we're now using all Genalex Gold Lion tubes in our ZOTL10 (EL-84s, 12AT7s, 12AU7s) and will soon use them for the 12AU7 and 12AX7 spots in the ZOTL40.
> 
> I'll send an email alert and post here when we have the tubes in stock and the option up on the website. We're also waiting on the boards in order to be able to offer the closed-circuit headphone jack, that will disconnect the speaker and preamp outputs when a headphone is plugged in. We made it retrofittable, so if you're comfortable soldering we can send you the parts, or you can ship your amp back to us for installation, if you'd like to change out your locking jack. I'm personally very excited to leave my speakers hooked up.


 
 This is great news, I have been waiting for the closed-circuit headphone jack.  Please let us know when this will be available.


----------



## doctorjazz

Will this be off much benefit if you only use ZOTL as a headphone amp?


----------



## willsw

doctorjazz said:


> Will this be off much benefit if you only use ZOTL as a headphone amp?




Not unless you hate the locking mechanism or the red tab. The locking jack is of slightly more robust build (neither jack is likely to fail in our lifetime), but, no, all you'd gain is having a jack that looked different and didn't lock.


----------



## jamato8

willsw said:


> Not unless you hate the locking mechanism or the red tab. The locking jack is of slightly more robust build (neither jack is likely to fail in our lifetime), but, no, all you'd gain is having a jack that looked different and didn't lock.


 

 Maybe he meant the wiring option. Less wire less RF and EMI. I have used the locking jacks myself in the past but decided I don't like them. They are just an extra step and sometimes I have accidentally pulled on the cable, getting up and with a regular socket, the jack pull out, of course this doesn't happen with the locking.


----------



## willsw

jamato8 said:


> Maybe he meant the wiring option. Less wire less RF and EMI. I have used the locking jacks myself in the past but decided I don't like them. They are just an extra step and sometimes I have accidentally pulled on the cable, getting up and with a regular socket, the jack pull out, of course this doesn't happen with the locking.


 

As far as I know, no, as the headphone jack is the first stop on the output wires that go to everything. Mark has been working for a while, with some significant out of his hands delays, on a new system for input and output wiring for the preamp-optimized MicroZOTL, though that will be a separate product and may not be easily added to the current MicroZOTL2. There may be very small differences between the jacks' performance, but with all else staying the same I don't think this is something that will audibly be apparent. I'll check with Mark, though. 

For those of us who use speakers, the functionality improvement will be very apparent, which is the only reason we've decided to ads this, and the price can stay the same if chosen with a stock unit, unlike adding a switch.


----------



## doctorjazz

OK, but upgrades that improve the sound are of interest...


----------



## jamato8

willsw said:


> As far as I know, no, as the headphone jack is the first stop on the output wires that go to everything. Mark has been working for a while, with some significant out of his hands delays, on a new system for input and output wiring for the preamp-optimized MicroZOTL, though that will be a separate product and may not be easily added to the current MicroZOTL2. There may be very small differences between the jacks' performance, but with all else staying the same I don't think this is something that will audibly be apparent. I'll check with Mark, though.
> 
> For those of us who use speakers, the functionality improvement will be very apparent, which is the only reason we've decided to ads this, and the price can stay the same if chosen with a stock unit, unlike adding a switch.


 

 What I refer to is the wires connected to the output jack for the headphones. It isn't just the headphone input but there are also wires that go to the speaker output. More wires for possible RF and EMI pickup. Isolating the wires from the headphone output gets rid of any potential impact on the headphone circuitry.


----------



## willsw

jamato8 said:


> What I refer to is the wires connected to the output jack for the headphones. It isn't just the headphone input but there are also wires that en go to the speaker output. More wires for possible RF and EMI pickup. Isolating the wires from the headphone output gets rid of any potential impact on the headphone circuitry.




This is true, which is what I want to check with Mark about. I don't know about the nature of RF and EMI enough to know if there will still be similar influence due to the proximity, connection/disconnection type, or other factors. If those who have it retrofit comment on better sound, we'll likely make it standard unless locking is specifically preferred. As the boards have not yet arrived, or the metal nuts in a hard-to-find-in-black size that I searched all over for because Neutrik wants you to use their plastic nuts, we'll wait to see.


----------



## claud W

Is there significant sound improvement between the Mojo power supply and the Linear Tube Audio optional power supply?  I am glad I had to wait a while before I order My Zotal2.  The factory improvements and optional tubes are worth waiting for.


----------



## drbluenewmexico

claud w said:


> Is there significant sound improvement between the Mojo power supply and the Linear Tube Audio optional power supply?  I am glad I had to wait a while before I order My Zotal2.  The factory improvements and optional tubes are worth waiting for.


 

@claud W    i recently posted on this thread a comparison of five different power supplies running the microZOTL2. My listening adventures
 took place over a week using the standard ZOTL2 power supply, the linear power supply that is optioning, the Mojo Joules 2, 3, and 5
 and the prototype ultra supply Illuminati (soon to be available from Mojo Audio.
 My ears told me that the Mojo Joule 5 was a significant upgrade from the other Mojos and the ZOTL power supplies, very significant.
 like a 30% improvement in sound PRAT, soundstage and musicality.  The Illuminati was truly a breakthrough device which blew away
 all the others in improving the ZOTL2.  It created a masterful sense of space, tone, texture and PRAT that you have to hear to believe.
 However, it is much more expensive and not available yet, but should be out soon for those with thicker wallets. bottom line:
 you get what you pay for in power supply upgrades...


----------



## claud W

I read your review. Is the ZOTAL power supply the same as the Linear Audio new optional power supply?


----------



## drbluenewmexico

claud w said:


> I read your review. Is the ZOTAL power supply the same as the Linear Audio new optional power supply?


 

 there are two available factory ZOTAL power supplies it seems.  one that came with the ZOTL2 when it first came out
 and an upgrade one called the Linear Audio Power supply that is optional and an upgrade and does sound significantly
 better than the stock one, and about the same as the Joule 1 from Mojo Audio, and fairly close to the Joule 3.
 However, the Joule 5 blows all of the above out of the water, and the new Illuminati blows everything off planet...


----------



## drbluenewmexico

claud w said:


> I read your review. Is the ZOTAL power supply the same as the Linear Audio new optional power supply?


 

 I will be posting some findings regarding the second wave of upgrades that Mojo Audio did to my ZOTL2 prototype
 very soon. these upgrades consisted of silver wiring,new caps, more wiring simplification, and a few other things
 contact Mojo Audio if you are interested in the details of this process. With the Joule 5 power supply hard wired
 to the Zotl also, the result is a stunning increase in fluidity, PRAT, tonal accuracy, and analogue like sound.
 Believe it or not, the ZOTL2 just keeps getting better with fine tuning.......its hard to stop listening and eat sometimes....
 as good as my original experience was when i wrote my first review of the re issued microZOTL ( i had the original
 from 14 years ago right after David Berning patented the ZOTL circuits), the modded ZOTL2 is in another league
 of high end audio bliss....


----------



## willsw

claud w said:


> I read your review. Is the ZOTAL power supply the same as the Linear Audio new optional power supply?


 
  
 You may also want to look into investing in a high-end power conditioner, which would allow you to upgrade all of your components in a similar or superior way than replacing the power supply on a single one. There are also grounding stations and other power-related add-ons to look at for external upgrades to any given component.


----------



## claud W

Yeah, I am thinking about the Linear Tube Audio optional ps and a Running Springs Haley.


----------



## zachawry

I've got my Linear Power Supply for sale in the classifieds. Pre-ordered an Illuminati.


----------



## yukihasi

There are so many great news! It's nice to know that there is an upgrading service from Mojo Audio for the mzotl2. Also, a newly designed headphone amp circuit from LTA, just wow. Guess better start saving some bucks now


----------



## MojoAudio

yukihasi said:


> There are so many great news! It's nice to know that there is an upgrading service from Mojo Audio for the mzotl2. Also, a newly designed headphone amp circuit from LTA, just wow. Guess better start saving some bucks now


 
  
 We've done quite a few mZ2 upgrades in addition to Dr. Blue's unit.
  
 Soon I'll be starting an "upgraded mZ2" thread with photos and details of some of the upgrades we've done already.
  
 Please contact me off forum through our website if anyone is interested in mZ2 upgrades.


----------



## zachawry

yukihasi said:


> There are so many great news! It's nice to know that there is an upgrading service from Mojo Audio for the mzotl2. Also, a newly designed headphone amp circuit from LTA, just wow. Guess better start saving some bucks now




Will specifically said "That's also the price range we're shooting for with our next product (not a super MicroZOTL2)," so I was under the impression it wasn't a new headphone amp circuit. Kina hope it ain't, just because I don't want to have to worry about _upgraditis nervosa _quite yet....


----------



## willsw

zachawry said:


> Will specifically said "That's also the price range we're shooting for with our next product (not a super MicroZOTL2)," so I was under the impression it wasn't a new headphone amp circuit. Kina hope it ain't, just because I don't want to have to worry about _upgraditis nervosa _quite yet....


 
  
 Don't get too nervous, you have multiple rooms! Your MZ2 can move to the bedside table. It is a new circuit and it will have headphone outs.


----------



## jamato8

willsw said:


> You may also want to look into investing in a high-end power conditioner, which would allow you to upgrade all of your components in a similar or superior way than replacing the power supply on a single one. There are also grounding stations and other power-related add-ons to look at for external upgrades to any given component.


 

 I agree with this. Get the best AC you can and go from there. Just like the PS for the mZ2, start with the best and cleanest voltage/current and build from there. I use a very large specially designed toroidal balanced transformer and it improves everything except my preamp. 
  
 Using 2 RCA 76 tubes per channel for excellent sound. These are the old RCA black black round plate version. I have a number of them in NOS because I designed a preamp to use them. An excellent sounding but needs to be run at its max rating for optimal sound. With that said, my favorite tube for detail, life like qualities is the Sylvania 27 1929 to 1932 tube (though a different heater voltage and much higher current draw for the heater). I have those in NOS also but unless I make up a separate adapter with a heater supply and pinout, I can't use these and I won't be making up an adapter as I don't have the desire. The 6SN7W tall or short bottle are also doing great service to the music.


----------



## bmichels

Has someone being able to *compare the Microzotl2 and the WooAudio WA8 *?   2 small tube based Amps


----------



## jamato8

bmichels said:


> Has someone being able to *compare the Microzotl2 and the WooAudio WA8 *?   2 small tube based Amps


 

 They aren't the same type of tube amp at all. Power wise, topology, nothing is the same so they aren't really comparable on that level but of course can always be compared for sound quality.


----------



## willsw

vapman said:


> There's no drooling smiley so this had to do
> But oh my god I didn't even consider this an option...
> 
> (not that i'd sacrifice headphone output on a ZOTL when the day comes one will be mine...)
> ...


 
  
 Depending on your patience or when that day is coming, we're finishing up some new boards and a reconfigured input/output system for a preamp-optimized version of the MicroZOTL2, which has been on our mind for a while - the newest cases actually have a third input hole that is covered in anticipation of that, though we're now thinking that we'd rather make a new case entirely for the preamp version, getting rid of the speaker jacks but definitely keeping the headphone output, with a few features that can't be modded into the current MicroZOTL2. We don't have a timetable yet, but the core product development is nearly done, so it will just be a matter of finding the time to finish it up.


----------



## vapman

willsw said:


> Depending on your patience or when that day is coming, we're finishing up some new boards and a reconfigured input/output system for a preamp-optimized version of the MicroZOTL2, which has been on our mind for a while - the newest cases actually have a third input hole that is covered in anticipation of that, though we're now thinking that we'd rather make a new case entirely for the preamp version, getting rid of the speaker jacks but definitely keeping the headphone output, with a few features that can't be modded into the current MicroZOTL2. We don't have a timetable yet, but the core product development is nearly done, so it will just be a matter of finding the time to finish it up.


 

 Well, if it was up to my patience, I'd have 2 ZOTL's now and keep one stock and mod the everloving urine out of the other one.
  
 Unfortunately and realistically, it's up to how comfortable my bank account is looking,  so knowing how that goes for me, you guys will release a new ZOTL version before I get to ordering
  
 Conflicted 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 and 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ...


----------



## Stereomojo

I was sent the MZ2 directly from the Newport show. I have used it as a headphone amp, a preamp replacing my $12,000 Purity Audio Rreference pre-, and as a power amp driving my 95 DB sensitive Vaughn Cabernet. They are a full range tower speaker with Accuton mids, a ribbon tweeter and dual 10 inch woofers.


----------



## jamato8

stereomojo said:


> I was sent the MZ2 directly from the Newport show. I have used it as a headphone amp, a preamp replacing my $12,000 Purity Audio Rreference pre-, and as a power amp driving my 95 DB sensitive Vaughn Cabernet. They are a full range tower speaker with Accuton mids, a ribbon tweeter and dual 10 inch woofers.


 

 I would love to hook it up to my horn speakers if they were here. Maybe I will try my Newform Research 645, which I have out in the garage boxed up.


----------



## JoeDoe

ATTN: ZOTL2 owners. If anyone is interested, I'm playing with the idea of doing a trade (ZOTL + cash) for my Cavalli Liquid Crimson. If you're interested hit me up!


----------



## saidentary

I haven't modified mine, nor have I upgraded the power supply.  I haven't rolled the tubes.  I still think it sounds great.  I'm not _opposed _to upgrading, but also I'm in no hurry to do so.  My threshold for satisfaction has been reached with the original, at least for now. Am I the only MZ2 owner who feels this way?


----------



## MojoAudio

saidentary said:


> I haven't modified mine, nor have I upgraded the power supply.  I haven't rolled the tubes.  I still think it sounds great.  I'm not _opposed _to upgrading, but also I'm in no hurry to do so.  My threshold for satisfaction has been reached with the original, at least for now. Am I the only MZ2 owner who feels this way?


 
  
 That would depend on a person's expectations, the potential of their source, and the potential of their headphones.
  
 If your source does not perform at or above the level of performance of your amp all upgrading your mZ2 will do is allow you to hear all more flaws in your source


----------



## zach915m

saidentary said:


> I haven't modified mine, nor have I upgraded the power supply.  I haven't rolled the tubes.  I still think it sounds great.  I'm not _opposed _to upgrading, but also I'm in no hurry to do so.  My threshold for satisfaction has been reached with the original, at least for now. Am I the only MZ2 owner who feels this way?


 
  
 I feel this way!  Although I admittedly did put in some old tubes and got the upgraded power supply from LTA/Urban HiFi.  BUT, the thing that made me pull the trigger on buying the ZOTL was the bone stock sound, which is absolutely fantastic.  To be honest I'm not 100% sure how much better it is or isn't with the new tubes etc as I was so happy with it before.


----------



## jamato8

I use the LTA upgraded power supply or the Mojo V and some 7062 feeding a pair of 6SN7W tubes and getting spooky good sound. Sure I would like to do what I often used to do, tear it down, replace the wiring with the hyper pure silver I had made (very expensive), fiddle with the caps and resistors but I love the sound so relax and enjoy.


----------



## doctorjazz

saidentary said:


> I haven't modified mine, nor have I upgraded the power supply.  I haven't rolled the tubes.  I still think it sounds great.  I'm not _opposed_ to upgrading, but also I'm in no hurry to do so.  My threshold for satisfaction has been reached with the original, at least for now. Am I the only MZ2 owner who feels this way?




I really liked the stock, but the tube upgrades and power supply upgrades do make for better sound. But I was fine for a year in stock version. Lots of things are like that...my HEK was great sounding with the stock cable, better sounding when I upgraded the cable. You certainly don't have to upgrade this stuff...I was pretty happy with a Senn 650 for a while, too. But it's easy to go down the upgrade path (and expensive...)


----------



## jelt2359

doctorjazz said:


> I really liked the stock, but the tube upgrades and power supply upgrades do make for better sound. But I was fine for a year in stock version. Lots of things are like that...my HEK was great sounding with the stock cable, better sounding when I upgraded the cable. You certainly don't have to upgrade this stuff...I was pretty happy with a Senn 650 for a while, too. But it's easy to go down the upgrade path (and expensive...)


 

_Focal Utopia...._


----------



## Wildcatsare1

jelt2359 said:


> _Focal Utopia...._




Are you getting a Review Sample in Jason ?


----------



## jelt2359

wildcatsare1 said:


> Are you getting a Review Sample in Jason ?


 
 No, I'm asking Jack to buy one!


----------



## RedBull

I am quite interested with the design of this amp.
 Any thought of the comparison with other amp like WA2, LF339, Valhalla, Elise, ZDSE?
 Never mind the price, just the sound sig alone.


----------



## sheldaze

redbull said:


> I am quite interested with the design of this amp.
> Any thought of the comparison with other amp like WA2, LF339, *Valhalla*, Elise, ZDSE?
> Never mind the price, just the sound sig alone.


 
 I had Valhalla 2, DNA Sonett, and MicroZOTL2 at the same time.
  
 The Valhalla went quite nicely with my HD800 headphones. But when listening to it versus the DNA Sonett, I had to sell it, for two reasons. The Valhalla added the suggestion of extra - well, a little hard to describe without citing the specific music. I was listening to Pink Floyd's album Animals. And as the guitars were struck, via the Sonett, it seems more like the mellow song it should be. The introduction is just that - an introduction, with a guy, and an acoustic guitar, and he's introducing you to a story. But it sounded quite "angsty" to me via the Valhalla. There was something aggressive through its reproduction of the sound, which I did not feel was true to the nature of the song.
  
 Also, though the Valhalla will play low impedance headphones, it does not do these well. I warned one of my local friends at a meet, his Valhalla would not do well with my HE-1000 headphones. It would make them sound really thrashy and bright. And this planar brigthness, through the Valhalla, was an issue on even easier to drive headphones such as the HE400i and EL-8C. The DNA Sonett could at least play well with the easier planar headphones, and is to this date the best sound I've heard with a tube and the EL-8C (I have not plugged into the MicroZOTL2).
  
 Keeping on the topic of power, the DNA Sonett makes sparking noises with the HE-1000. I bought the MicroZOTL2 specifically for its ability to play the HE-1000, as it does these quite well, with plenty of power and authority.
  
 HD800 on the MicroZOTL2 versus the DNA Sonett, which I think is a better comparison than to the Valhalla. It is as if you are peeking into the sound, dipping your head a little more forward, as a child would do, who is interested in getting a better view of the animals at the zoo or the circus. Take your analogy wherever it suits best. It is certainly not the "angsty" sound of the Valhalla. But it is also not the flat response, which I quite liked in the Sonett. It is simply peering in a little closer.


----------



## jamato8

With the MZ2, a lot also depends upon the power supply and tubes used.


----------



## doctorjazz

jelt2359 said:


> doctorjazz said:
> 
> 
> > I really liked the stock, but the tube upgrades and power supply upgrades do make for better sound. But I was fine for a year in stock version. Lots of things are like that...my HEK was great sounding with the stock cable, better sounding when I upgraded the cable. You certainly don't have to upgrade this stuff...I was pretty happy with a Senn 650 for a while, too. But it's easy to go down the upgrade path (and expensive...)
> ...




Get me a pair, I'm in!


----------



## Wildcatsare1

doctorjazz said:


> Get me a pair, I'm in!




Doc Jazz you need to pick up a pair and do a comparative review to York HE1k for THL!


----------



## doctorjazz

wildcatsare1 said:


> doctorjazz said:
> 
> 
> > Get me a pair, I'm in!
> ...




Sure, as I said, if someone gets me one, I'll be happy to do a comparison (not ready for divorce...).


----------



## jamato8

doctorjazz said:


> Sure, as I said, if someone gets me one, I'll be happy to do a comparison (not ready for divorce...).


 

 It almost always seems there is a revision and I am not so sure I would jump on the 1st ones to come out. Should be interesting to see how well they are received in general. I don't always trust the reviews and prefer a general consensus.


----------



## doctorjazz

True, haven't heard anything about them yet...


----------



## zachawry

saidentary said:


> I haven't modified mine, nor have I upgraded the power supply.  I haven't rolled the tubes.  I still think it sounds great.  I'm not _opposed _to upgrading, but also I'm in no hurry to do so.  My threshold for satisfaction has been reached with the original, at least for now. Am I the only MZ2 owner who feels this way?


 

 As someone who has gotten some sweet NOS tubes, the LPS, and is about to send his MZ2 in to be modded....If you are happy with your stock MZ2, which is great and has a great sound signature, that's awesome. Hey, I was happy with it too. I think the upgrade impulse has more in common than we'd like to admit with junkies seeking an ever greater high. And the same phenomenon of desensitization occurs, where what was once superlative becomes merely ordinary, requiring greater and greater doses to get you back to that peak experience.


----------



## RedBull

sheldaze said:


> I had Valhalla 2, DNA Sonett, and MicroZOTL2 at the same time.
> 
> The Valhalla went quite nicely with my HD800 headphones. But when listening to it versus the DNA Sonett, I had to sell it, for two reasons. The Valhalla added the suggestion of extra - well, a little hard to describe without citing the specific music. I was listening to Pink Floyd's album Animals. And as the guitars were struck, via the Sonett, it seems more like the mellow song it should be. The introduction is just that - an introduction, with a guy, and an acoustic guitar, and he's introducing you to a story. But it sounded quite "angsty" to me via the Valhalla. There was something *aggressive *through its reproduction of the sound, which I did not feel was true to the nature of the song.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks Sheldaze, I heard Valhalla 2 so I can quite understand what you are trying to say.


----------



## tunes

I am looking to begin building a system for dedicated headphone listening starting with the HiFiMan 1000. At the moment I am willing to spend another 3-4K after purchasing the HEK for an amp and a decent power conditioner. Right now all of my source music is on an Apple laptop with CDs copied via apple lossless. I find using the laptop a pain and was also hoping to get some advice using an iPad as a music server. Has anyone put together a good system with an iPad? Is there a better simple alternative for a music server and excellent DAC ? Eventually, I may just get the MacIntosh MHA 100 $4500 with DAC and end my spending and start enjoying the music. What about starting with one of the inexpensive amps offer by HiFi man?


----------



## jamato8

tunes said:


> I am looking to begin building a system for dedicated headphone listening starting with the HiFiMan 1000. At the moment I am willing to spend another 3-4K after purchasing the HEK for an amp and a decent power conditioner. Right now all of my source music is on an Apple laptop with CDs copied via apple lossless. I find using the laptop a pain and was also hoping to get some advice using an iPad as a music server. Has anyone put together a good system with an iPad? Is there a better simple alternative for a music server and excellent DAC ? Eventually, I may just get the MacIntosh MHA 100 $4500 with DAC and end my spending and start enjoying the music. What about starting with one of the inexpensive amps offer by HiFi man?


 

 You have a number of questions but they might be better asked in threads devoted to Dacs, systems that can be used as a source for musical files etc.


----------



## willsw

The MicroZOTL2 in its various preamp duties at Capital Audiofest last weekend.


----------



## willsw

Hot off the line: the non-locking, closed circuit headphone jack. Got speakers or a preamp hooked up? Don't feel like unplugging bananas (or worse–unscrewing the posts!) or turning off your power amp? Pop your headphones in and the other outputs are disconnected. Still working on nuts that we can call our own (this one is painted, but I need to try other paint that won't come off when tightening), but available now with Neutrik's supplied nut, which is a good nut, and thorough.
  
 Available as a no-cost option if you're ordering a MicroZOTL2. If you'd like to retrofit it into your current unit, it's $20 for us to send you the necessary parts if you like to solder, or $50 for you to ship (at your cost) your unit to us and we ship (our cost) back to you.


----------



## yage

Very nice.


----------



## Audio Addict

willsw said:


> Hot off the line: the non-locking, closed circuit headphone jack. Got speakers or a preamp hooked up? Don't feel like unplugging bananas (or worse–unscrewing the posts!) or turning off your power amp? Pop your headphones in and the other outputs are disconnected. Still working on nuts that we can call our own (this one is painted, but I need to try other paint that won't come off when tightening), but available now with Neutrik's supplied nut, which is a good nut, and thorough.
> 
> Available as a no-cost option if you're ordering a MicroZOTL2. If you'd like to retrofit it into your current unit, it's $20 for us to send you the necessary parts if you like to solder, or $50 for you to ship (at your cost) your unit to us and we ship (our cost) back to you.




This is just my initial impression from the photo but I do not like the new headphone jack.


----------



## willsw

audio addict said:


> This is just my initial impression from the photo but I do not like the new headphone jack.


 
  
 It's not a beauty, but our first priority was to make it able to be fit into older faceplate, and the jack we needed is only available in limited styles, which have threading that they don't publish the size of, which, after a trip to the hardware store and lots of trial and error, turns out to be an uncommon threading. I'm in the process of getting some quotes and maybe getting some nice, attractive, black nuts (it's what we all need) made, but if the expense is too much it'll just have to be appealing for its function, if its function appeals.


----------



## zachawry

Will, so with this new circuit, if I wanted to use my power amp, I'd still have to unplug the headphones?


----------



## willsw

zachawry said:


> Will, so with this new circuit, if I wanted to use my power amp, I'd still have to unplug the headphones?


 
  
 I guess that this is technically a new circuit, though that comment was referring to an entirely different, up-in-the-air thing. If you used this headphone jack, you'd definitely have to unplug your headphones, as instead of playing music through your headphones and your speakers, your preamp output would just not function until you unplugged your headphones.
  
 Selectable inputs and outputs, a.k.a: "leave all my stuff plugged in", requires, however implemented, a bit more than a jack swap, so we're not going to try to fit that into the MicroZOTL2. The future has many plans, and our product development team (named Mark, at least in terms of developments that are more than just ideas) is also currently playing a bit of every other role in the company. We're currently taking steps to streamline, like finding closer, faster fabrication facilities (our cases are currently made in Dallas, which is not great for looking at prototypes, and our faceplates in Canada . . . somewhere in Canada), and some other things.  This is a long answer to your simple question, but it's what I think about when you ask it, because it's what we talk about in the workshop, so here you go. 
  
 Also, it's weird not seeing that little red tab on my MicroZOTL2 anymore.


----------



## willsw

A couple of better photos. About to go get the right paint for zinc-coated steel, so the nut will be a clean black that won't chip off.


----------



## RedBull

Hi @willsw, what is the power output for 300ohm load?  I have some 300 ohmies headphones.  Thank you in advance.


----------



## tunes

Compared my Cypher Labs Theroem 720 with my new HEK and using T he amp section of the WA7 tube amp driven by the line out DAC from the Theorem via RCA. Although neither are really powerful enough and need the volume set to almost 80-100% with most recordIngs, the Theorem sounds better in microdinamics, instrument separation, expanse of sound field and crisper treble. The WA7 is dull in comparison. I am planning on eventually getting the MHA 100 (saving up) but was wondering if anyone has been using the QP1R portable dap and how it compares with the great sound of the Theorem 720 since it has a more powerful built in amp and is a no stack solution for travel. I have seen only a few posts using with the HEK.


----------



## willsw

redbull said:


> Hi @willsw, what is the power output for 300ohm load?  I have some 300 ohmies headphones.  Thank you in advance.


 
  
 Hey, I actually don't know the output at different ohm loads, I'm not sure we ever measured it. We just try headphones out. I just did a volume pot measurement with the HD800 and HD650, as I have those on hand. The HD800 was loud but comfortable at 12 o'clock, louder than I'd ever want and probably unhealthy but bearable at 2-3 o'clock, and then it hurts. HD650, being more sensitive, passed bearability around 1-2 o'clock. I'd guess the HD600 would be closer to the HD800 in performance based on its sensitivity rating. 
  
 We've found that the measured wattage of our amps (including the ZOTL10 and ZOTL40) often doesn't correspond to the expected sound/volume of those watts when actually heard, playing louder than the spec sheet might imply.


----------



## RedBull

Thanks @willsw and I assume the source voltage is 2V?


----------



## willsw

redbull said:


> Thanks @willsw and I assume the source voltage is 2V?


 
  
 Yes, forgot to mention that. 2v source. It would be louder through your Audio-gd (it _was_ louder through an Audio-gd that I had for a while) assuming that it's 2.5v through RCAs.


----------



## jamato8

Listening to my Ultrasone Ed. 9 with the MZ2. The best I have heard them sound. Excellent depth and imaging. A well defined bass and wonderful decay. Good stuff!


----------



## RedBull

willsw said:


> Yes, forgot to mention that. 2v source. It would be louder through your Audio-gd (it _was_ louder through an Audio-gd that I had for a while) assuming that it's 2.5v through RCAs.




Thanks.
I never measured, but I think A Gd DAC output 2V in SE.


----------



## saidentary

willsw said:


> We've found that the measured wattage of our amps (including the ZOTL10 and ZOTL40) often doesn't correspond to the expected sound/volume of those watts when actually heard, playing louder than the spec sheet might imply.


 
 This is the case for my HE-1000s.  My experience was that the MZ2 drove the HE-1000 with more headroom than did the balanced output of the Oppo HA-1, which is rated at 3.2 watts, class A, if I understand correctly.  Zach (of ZMF fame) commented that the MZ2 drove his headphones with plenty of power to spare, and he liked it so much that he bought a unit


----------



## Wildcatsare1

saidentary said:


> This is the case for my HE-1000s.  My experience was that the MZ2 drove the HE-1000 with more headroom than did the balanced output of the Oppo HA-1, which is rated at 3.2 watts, class A, if I understand correctly.  Zach (of ZMF fame) commented that the MZ2 drove his headphones with plenty of power to spare, and he liked it so much that he bought a unit




I've also found the MZ2 is an excellent match for my LCD-3f (now 2016 Vintage), equaling or besting my Auralic Taurus Mk. 2 across the board. Really one of the best I've heard with this Headphone.


----------



## krumley7882

Looks great in Cali!


----------



## willsw

krumley7882 said:


> Looks great in Cali!


 
  
 A big thank you to Audio Visions in SF for bringing a couple of MicroZOTL2s to the meet. Just too much going on over here to make there ourselves. Some very interesting things though! One of which is that this weekend we'll start the remodel of our new manufacturing space/retail store, though it's a real START: we're going to have to tear out, build, and put in.


----------



## doctorjazz

OK, a tone question from a tube ignoramus. My NOS Siemans 12AT7 flashed (one of them) when I turn on the ZOTL. I assume it means the tube is about to die, I changed it. Am I correct? It does still work.


----------



## JoeDoe

If there are any ZOTL2 owners interested in trading for either an LCD3 non-fazor or Enigma Dharma, hit me up!


----------



## jamato8

doctorjazz said:


> OK, a tone question from a tube ignoramus. My NOS Siemans 12AT7 flashed (one of them) when I turn on the ZOTL. I assume it means the tube is about to die, I changed it. Am I correct? It does still work.


 

 Was it a small flash from the base of the tube? A number of tubes do this. Some Mullards, a few Siemans. Over the years, no one has had a definitive reason for this but it is normal with some types from specific manufactures.


----------



## doctorjazz

It is a small flash, but noticeable, and it seems to play well afterwards. I did swap the tube, but would replace it if it's safe.


----------



## jamato8

doctorjazz said:


> It is a small flash, but noticeable, and it seems to play well afterwards. I did swap the tube, but would replace it if it's safe.


 

 The Mullard 12AX7 is noted for this. I kind of enjoy it. The tube, it's alive!


----------



## Stereomojo

I can say that my time with the MZ2 has been wonderful. So musical. It just sings. Transients, leading edges are super fast, you get all of the music as it was intended, including my own 24-bit performances. I'm just not thinking about how hi, mid and low frequencies sound when I'm listening, it gets me past that. It doesn't scream "tubes" or "solid-state", either. It just kind of whispers, "Here… Listen to THIS…" and gets out of the way. 

 I just got in the Lampizator Komputer DSD music server that I'm setting up now. I think it will markedly test the capabilities of the Micro.


----------



## Stereomojo

joedoe said:


> If there are any ZOTL2 owners interested in trading for either an LCD3 non-fazor or Enigma Dharma, hit me up!




 If there are any Mercedes owners who'd like to trade for my Yugo, hit me up, too!


----------



## zachawry

Today I got my modded amp and a demo Joule 5 from Mojo Audio. Unfortunately my LPS is back in Japan, so I can't test the modded amp by itself. 

But, the sound is definitely deeper, faster, clearer. The blacks are blacker and the highs twinkly-er. 

And it ain't even burned in yet.

Edit: A couple times in the past few weeks I've had the chance to listen to magnificent stereo systems in dealers' listening rooms. $20K speakers hooked up to $20K amps in rooms specially designed to optimize accoustics. 

These places have always felt like shrines to me, and the sound elicits a funny emotional response: I feel like I'm not worthy, and I should have to go meditate and purify myself for a few months before listening more. I'm probably just deeply psychologically flawed, or my parents dropped me on my head when I was a baby (they actually did), but that's how I feel when I hear unbelievably good sound systems. Anyway, that's what my modded MZ2 and JV5 approaches. It doesn't quite hit the level of a $50K 2-channel system, but it has some of the same kind of emotional effect.


----------



## willsw

zachawry said:


> Today I got my modded amp


 
  
 Which mods did you get? I've been looking at power supplies offered by Clones Audio and especially Border Patrol, which is based near us in Maryland. It seems like Border Patrol really brought the potential of a big, heavy, choke-based power supplies into public view. I also love their tube DACs in wooden tube boxes. Vinnie Rossi's power supplies are also interesting, though I think you'd have to find a discontinued Red Wine Audio supply if you wanted that as a separate unit. An external Berning power supply (unnecessarily external, given its noise level) would also be interesting, but the audio boards have enough labor involved, the custom parts on the power board for the ZOTL40 take about as long as the custom parts on the audio board. 
  
 Power!


----------



## zachawry

willsw said:


> Which mods did you get? I've been looking at power supplies offered by Clones Audio and especially Border Patrol, which is based near us in Maryland. It seems like Border Patrol really brought the potential of a big, heavy, choke-based power supplies into public view. I also love their tube DACs in wooden tube boxes. Vinnie Rossi's power supplies are also interesting, though I think you'd have to find a discontinued Red Wine Audio supply if you wanted that as a separate unit. An external Berning power supply (unnecessarily external, given its noise level) would also be interesting, but the audio boards have enough labor involved, the custom parts on the power board for the ZOTL40 take about as long as the custom parts on the audio board.
> 
> Power!


 

 The mods I got from Mojo Audio were: 
  
 * Rewiring, including taking out one of the inputs, the speaker posts, and using better wire for some of the internal connections. 
 * A 24-step Goldpoint attenuator. (I thought I wouldn't like the discrete-step attenuator as much as a smooth potentiometer, but I find I like it more. Less tempted to fiddle)
 * Furutech RCA posts for both input and output
 * Thermistor fuse
 * Hard-wired power cord, which is now connected to a Joule 5 and will be connected to an Illuminati when they ship. 
 * Sorbothane feet
  
 Basically, I just asked them to take out everything that wasn't in the signal path, and to upgrade some of the parts that were. 
  
 It looks and sounds sparser now. Sparser in the good sense of the word, as in "everything not absolutely necessary ruthlessly removed to focus only on what matters."
  
 I think it's had a pretty big impact, although like I said it's impossible to differentiate the improvements between these mods and the J5 over the LPS. 
  
  It's funny, LTA ought to offer this souped-up version of the amp, but people want to pay more money for more functions and more flexibility, as opposed to less.


----------



## willsw

zachawry said:


> It's funny, LTA ought to offer this souped-up version of the amp, but people want to pay more money for more functions and more flexibility, as opposed to less.


 
  
 The thermistor fuse is something new to me, I'll have to look into that, or ask Mark. Based on listening tests we've done with different components, I'm sure you're hearing more than the power supply change, as you should be. 
  
 There are many considerations we have to take and limitations regarding what we offer, and, regarding the MicroZOTL2, we have had more requests for more features than less. There's also the fact that the success of MicroZOTL2 itself is a funny result of add-ons. Originally it was only going to have speaker outputs, and it sounds incredible with speakers, but you'd really need about three more MicroZOTLs in the case to make it an amp that would satisfactorily power the highest sensitivity speakers (which would price it above our 10 watt amp). And then the headphone output was thrown in, and then the preamp outputs, both of which developed followings that the speaker outputs have not, but as a result it does three things in as simple a way as possible
  
 It's very good to see the solutions that others come up with to make the amp more of what they want. I just want the company to be successful enough to stay afloat and be able to develop the many things we want to come out with.


----------



## Stereomojo

Currently using it in my main system as a pre replacing a $12,000 purest audio reference tube preamp with the new Lampizator Komputer music server as a source.


----------



## yukihasi

willsw said:


> There are many considerations we have to take and limitations regarding what we offer, and, regarding the MicroZOTL2, we have had more requests for more features than less. There's also the fact that the success of MicroZOTL2 itself is a funny result of add-ons. Originally it was only going to have speaker outputs, and it sounds incredible with speakers, but you'd really need about three more MicroZOTLs in the case to make it an amp that would satisfactorily power the highest sensitivity speakers (which would price it above our 10 watt amp). And then the headphone output was thrown in, and then the preamp outputs, both of which developed followings that the speaker outputs have not, but as a result it does three things in as simple a way as possible


 
 Makes perfect sense, and not to mention the original microzotl also have all of the three functionalities. 
  
 But what I really hope is the next "pre-amp with headphone out" from LTA, which mentioned before in the post, to be a "headphone amp with pre out", or at least we can choose between the two optimized version.


----------



## Jozurr

Proud new owner here. I already have a Liquid Glass, but curiousity got the best of me and I got the MZ2 with LPS.
  
 I have some simple questions:
  
 1) I have the version with the LPS. If I decide not to use the LPS, how does the MZ2 power? I only have a small power in port thing, and a cable that goes into the port and into the LPS, and power cord out of LPS to wall
  
 2) How big of a difference does rube rolling make in this amp? Do changing the 6SN7 or the 12AT7 make a bigger difference? It seems difficult to tube roll considering you have 14 screws to open and close, unless you decide to keep the top open in which case I risk getting dust in it
  
 3) I plugged in the HE-6 in it as well. However, as I go near 3-4 o clock on the volume pot, I heard some distortion coming in. Is this normal? What could be the reason?
  
 Also, I really with this had a 4pin XLR out as all my headphones have these cables, and I hate working with adapters. A simple 6.5mm to 4 pin XLR would have been ok, just like the one on the Liquid Glass. There's ample space on the front for it too.


----------



## sheldaze

jozurr said:


> 2) How big of a difference does rube rolling make in this amp? Do changing the 6SN7 or the 12AT7 make a bigger difference? It seems difficult to tube roll considering you have 14 screws to open and close, unless you decide to keep the top open in which case I risk getting dust in it


 
 I think there is significant change in sound from both tubes. However I have only changed the 6SN7 once. These tubes can be costly, and I've read they do not make as significant of a change as do the 12AT7. And I am hesitant to pay the $100 per tube to get the Sophia Electric 6SN7 tubes that I'd really love to hear, only to find out they sound similar to my inexpensive eBay set of four tubes, for which I paid $65 total, including shipping cost.
  
 The 12AT7 though, I've listened to stock, Telefunken, Mullard, and Gold Lion. I think you might be soon able to purchase Gold Lion from the manufacturer, and that's what I would recommend. When I used the Mullard and the stock 6SN7, I thought it lost something. I am, however, using the Mullard with my eBay tubes and like the pairing. Go figure - I'm a tubes newbie, and I do not understand. I just like what I hear!


----------



## willsw

jozurr said:


> Proud new owner here. I already have a Liquid Glass, but curiousity got the best of me and I got the MZ2 with LPS.
> 
> I have some simple questions:
> 
> ...


 
  
 Happy to hear your curiosity was so strong.
  
 1. MicroZOTL2 is designed with an external power supply–a power supply outside of the case holding the audio components–the LPS is this power supply. It is equivalent (but much higher quality) to the wall-wart on a computer charger. If you don't want to use the LPS, there are many manufacturers who make standalone power supplies with connectors that will fit our unit, or you could even use an adequate battery to power the unit–the original microZOTL actually had battery power as a primary option.
  
 2. The MicroZOTL2 (and all amps using the ZOTL circuit) is very sensitive to tube rolling. Generally people find a larger difference in changing the 12AT7. The case was admittedly designed without tube rolling in mind. If you were going to tube roll a lot, you could secure the top with only a few screws, and it would be fine.
  
 3. The HE-6 is an extremely low sensitivity headphone: rated at 83.5db/w but that's possibly optimistic. The MicroZOTL2 will not get these very loud before they start to distort, because it simply does not put out enough power to make them louder. Most amps aimed at headphones will not give enough power to the HE-6.
  
 We made the decision not to put the 4pin headphone output on the MicroZOTL2 for several reasons. It is possible to modify or have someone modify the headphone jack, and replace the current 1/4" output with a 4pin. The hole in the faceplate should accommodate the other headphone jack. Or you could just leave something like this plugged in: http://www.alliedelec.com/neutrik-na3fp/70088406/


----------



## jamato8

There are a number of 6SN7 types that don't cost 100 dollars each. There is a 6SN7 thread on this forum that will give you many options. For me, I find that both the 6SN7 and the 12AT7 can have significant affects on the sound. Normally the output tube has less but with the mZ2, I don't find this to be true. For me this is a good thing as you can have many options. There are many 12AT7 tube types available and it is always worth it to have a few sets of tubes to roll or for back up. 
  
 I have worked with tubes for years and have a few 1000. There is no need though for more than a couple of pairs. On the HE6, as mentioned above, the mZ2 was not designed for this type of phone. I have the HE6 and it requires a lot of power and to have 5 watts minimum is best. For everything else I have the mZ2 does excellent and no amp I have listened to can match it. If people realized how good the mZ2 sounds, and for a price that would normally get you a lesser amp, Linear Tube Audio wouldn't be able to keep them in stock. 
  
 I also have a battery from Anker, that output 12 volts and will power the mZ2 for many hours. It is surprisingly small but allows for a transportable use of the mZ.


----------



## sheldaze

jamato8 said:


> There are a number of 6SN7 types that don't cost 100 dollars each. There is a 6SN7 thread on this forum that will give you many options...


 
 Long thread, so I'll be back in a few months 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 Although post #2 describes what I am using, and the Sophia that I was interested in giving a trial.


----------



## Jozurr

sheldaze said:


> I think there is significant change in sound from both tubes. However I have only changed the 6SN7 once. These tubes can be costly, and I've read they do not make as significant of a change as do the 12AT7. And I am hesitant to pay the $100 per tube to get the Sophia Electric 6SN7 tubes that I'd really love to hear, only to find out they sound similar to my inexpensive eBay set of four tubes, for which I paid $65 total, including shipping cost.
> 
> The 12AT7 though, I've listened to stock, Telefunken, Mullard, and Gold Lion. I think you might be soon able to purchase Gold Lion from the manufacturer, and that's what I would recommend. When I used the Mullard and the stock 6SN7, I thought it lost something. I am, however, using the Mullard with my eBay tubes and like the pairing. Go figure - I'm a tubes newbie, and I do not understand. I just like what I hear!


 
  
 Thanks for the recommendations. Although I have a few pairs of 6SN7 tubes since I use them on the Glass, so I can maybe roll them into this. There are some really good tubes available for even USD 50 per pair, which I believe might be better than the standard ones on the MZ2.


willsw said:


> Happy to hear your curiosity was so strong.
> 
> 1. MicroZOTL2 is designed with an external power supply–a power supply outside of the case holding the audio components–the LPS is this power supply. It is equivalent (but much higher quality) to the wall-wart on a computer charger. If you don't want to use the LPS, there are many manufacturers who make standalone power supplies with connectors that will fit our unit, or you could even use an adequate battery to power the unit–the original microZOTL actually had battery power as a primary option.
> 
> ...


 
  
 So had I bought just the MZ2 without the LPS, how would I have powered it out of the box? I have to buy something extra to run the MZ2 without the LPS if I want to compare the differences with and without the LPS?
  
 I understand that the HE-6 is difficult to power, and Im currently using a huge power amp with LG as a preamp, and I just tried the MZ2 as a preamp as well. What I was wondering is, why there would be distortion on the HE-6 when I go near the max on the volume pot, since that doesnt happen with most amps. They just give up and not go loud enough after I hit max volume. I just plugged in another Hifiman, and the same issue happens with it too. 
  
 Also, from what I understand, if I plug in the headphones, the preamp wouldnt get cut off? So for example, if I leave the 6.5mm to 4pin XLR adapter on and leave the headphones plugged in to it or not, I can still use the MZ2 as preamp too? With the volume knob controlling both the headphone out and the preamp at the same time? I dont want to try it since the power amp will blow up my HE-6 if it doesn't work as intended. So currently, I plug out everything from the headphone out, if I have to use the MZ2 as preamp, and plug the headphones back in to use MZ2 as a headphone amp.


jamato8 said:


> There are a number of 6SN7 types that don't cost 100 dollars each. There is a 6SN7 thread on this forum that will give you many options. For me, I find that both the 6SN7 and the 12AT7 can have significant affects on the sound. Normally the output tube has less but with the mZ2, I don't find this to be true. For me this is a good thing as you can have many options. There are many 12AT7 tube types available and it is always worth it to have a few sets of tubes to roll or for back up.
> 
> I have worked with tubes for years and have a few 1000. There is no need though for more than a couple of pairs. On the HE6, as mentioned above, the mZ2 was not designed for this type of phone. I have the HE6 and it requires a lot of power and to have 5 watts minimum is best. For everything else I have the mZ2 does excellent and no amp I have listened to can match it. If people realized how good the mZ2 sounds, and for a price that would normally get you a lesser amp, Linear Tube Audio wouldn't be able to keep them in stock.
> 
> I also have a battery from Anker, that output 12 volts and will power the mZ2 for many hours. It is surprisingly small but allows for a transportable use of the mZ.


 
  
 I'm part of the 6SN7 thread and have some pairs that Ill be trying. Which ones are you using on your MZ2?
  
 I have no experience is with the 12AT7 tubes. Which ones do you consider the best 12AT7? What would be your recommendations? Just one liners describing the changes with the tube names would be cool
  
 Thanks!


----------



## jamato8

jozurr said:


> I'm part of the 6SN7 thread and have some pairs that Ill be trying. Which ones are you using on your MZ2?
> 
> I have no experience is with the 12AT7 tubes. Which ones do you consider the best 12AT7? What would be your recommendations? Just one liners describing the changes with the tube names would be cool
> 
> Thanks!


 
 I like the Sylvania 6SN7W black base short tube (over the Sylvania 6SN7GT bad boy) and the Amperex (most all were made by them) 7052 for the 12AT7.


----------



## Maxx134

zachawry said:


> The mods I got from Mojo Audio were:
> * A 24-step Goldpoint attenuator.




This in my opinion is the biggest upgrade. 

In my experience at the last NY headfi meet,
this amp was only bettered by one TOTL system and and electrostatic setups. 

I was rather shocked at the strength and clarity.

So I am wondering are the tubes biased normally?

What about the heater current?
How high can it go for tube rolling?
I asume this unit using external PSU, so heater current can be increased if needed.....
It would open the unit to more tube rolling choices. ..

For example, although a tube can be optimally biased for maximum linearity, 
I still find the 6sn7 family superior to any 12at7 type.

I have been using 6sn7 as driver tube on another amp project, and would be curious to try same on this amp.

Edit :
Regardless, the output design is genius.


----------



## willsw

maxx134 said:


> This in my opinion is the biggest upgrade.
> 
> In my experience at the last NY headfi meet,
> this amp was only bettered by one TOTL system and and electrostatic setups.
> ...


 
  
 The circuit is auto biasing, and the tubes are run at low current which results in a very long life. The times I've seen users increase heater current, it has been with a separate power supply only for the heaters.


----------



## Jozurr

Still hearing distortion if I go past 3 o clock on the volume knob. Same input and everything else similar is crystal clear into the LC and LG. Anyone knows what could be wrong?


----------



## Jozurr

jozurr said:


> So had I bought just the MZ2 without the LPS, how would I have powered it out of the box? I have to buy something extra to run the MZ2 without the LPS if I want to compare the differences with and without the LPS?
> 
> I understand that the HE-6 is difficult to power, and Im currently using a huge power amp with LG as a preamp, and I just tried the MZ2 as a preamp as well. What I was wondering is, why there would be distortion on the HE-6 when I go near the max on the volume pot, since that doesnt happen with most amps. They just give up and not go loud enough after I hit max volume. I just plugged in another Hifiman, and the same issue happens with it too.
> 
> Also, from what I understand, if I plug in the headphones, the preamp wouldnt get cut off? So for example, if I leave the 6.5mm to 4pin XLR adapter on and leave the headphones plugged in to it or not, I can still use the MZ2 as preamp too? With the volume knob controlling both the headphone out and the preamp at the same time? I dont want to try it since the power amp will blow up my HE-6 if it doesn't work as intended. So currently, I plug out everything from the headphone out, if I have to use MZ2 as headphone amp.




Still looking for answers for these too. Any help will be appreciated.


----------



## crazychile

jozurr said:


> jozurr said:
> 
> 
> > So had I bought just the MZ2 without the LPS, how would I have powered it out of the box? I have to buy something extra to run the MZ2 without the LPS if I want to compare the differences with and without the LPS?
> ...




@willsw already answered your distortion question


----------



## zachawry

jozurr said:


> Proud new owner here. I already have a Liquid Glass, but curiousity got the best of me and I got the MZ2 with LPS.


 
  
 I was all set to get the Glass, but decided I didn't want to wait more than 6 months, so I got the MZ2. I am very happy with the MZ2, but I'd still be curious to hear your comparison with the Glass. 
  
 Re: Power supplies: I originally got mine with the very basic SMPS power supply. I think they might not even provide these any more. Then I upgraded to the LPS, and the difference was amazing. That got me on the power supply bandwagon, and now I have an even better power supply (Joule 5 from Mojo Audio). Each upgrade has been a large jump in terms of background blackness, speed, and clarity. 
  
 Funny, I didn't even realize background blackness was a thing until I got the LPS, when I immediately saw that the background had been just darkish grey before.
 The LPS *seemed* pitch black, but with the J5 I see that it was only, errr....very dark grey.


----------



## Jozurr

crazychile said:


> @willsw already answered your distortion question




I thought that he only meant that for the HE6. I plugged in my LFF Code X (HE5) as well. They are lets say equivalent to HE500 power requirements wise and get too loud on the LC even under half way on the volume knob and the MZ2 cant even power these without getting distorted? Then I plugged in my Omnis and same results. Why do I keep reading these have enough power for most headphones and what not? 

I read enough comparisons between the LC and MZ2 mentioning how MZ2 trumps the LC in all possible ways, without anyone mentioning that these just dont have the power for many headphones, and I assumed specs dont say everything about amps. I might be missing something completely or these are maybe just made for very easy to drive headphones only.


----------



## zach915m

jozurr said:


> I thought that he only meant that for the HE6. I plugged in my LFF Code X (HE5) as well. They are lets say equivalent to HE500 power requirements wise and get too loud on the LC even under half way on the volume knob and the MZ2 cant even power these without getting distorted? Then I plugged in my Omnis and same results. Why do I keep reading these have enough power for most headphones and what not?
> 
> I read enough comparisons between the LC and MZ2 mentioning how MZ2 trumps the LC in all possible ways, without anyone mentioning that these just dont have the power for many headphones, and I assumed specs dont say everything about amps. I might be missing something completely or these are maybe just made for very easy to drive headphones only.




Whats the source? Sorry of I missed this already. 

I just don't recall having to go past 1 pm much if ever on the zotl. I'm wondering if this has anything to do with the input level.


----------



## Jozurr

zachawry said:


> I was all set to get the Glass, but decided I didn't want to wait more than 6 months, so I got the MZ2. I am very happy with the MZ2, but I'd still be curious to hear your comparison with the Glass.
> 
> Re: Power supplies: I originally got mine with the very basic SMPS power supply. I think they might not even provide these any more. Then I upgraded to the LPS, and the difference was amazing. That got me on the power supply bandwagon, and now I have an even better power supply (Joule 5 from Mojo Audio). Each upgrade has been a large jump in terms of background blackness, speed, and clarity.
> 
> ...




I was curious how I would have used them out of the box had I just ordered the MZ2 without LPS but that seems to have gone unanswered. 

I have the LPS and currently im facing trouble powering 3-4 of my main headphones so Im not sure how Id be able to post comparisons or even use the MZ2 as an amp. Its also difficult to post comparisons as I dont have 2 pairs of same tubes, and tubes contribute to a lot of the sound, so side by side comparison would be impossible. I could have done a comparison taking out the tubes from MZ2 and using them on the LG, but currently I cant even say that MZ2 alone can even power the headphones Im using.


----------



## Jozurr

zach915m said:


> Whats the source? Sorry of I missed this already.
> 
> I just don't recall having to go past 1 pm much if ever on the zotl. I'm wondering if this has anything to do with the input level.




Im using the DAC-19. Using the same cables out from the MZ2 into the LG/LC and both of those amps seem to have enough power half way on the pot.


----------



## crazychile

jozurr said:


> crazychile said:
> 
> 
> > @willsw already answered your distortion question
> ...




Or maybe you listen to music a lot louder than most people. The Microzotl might not be for you. This may be more appropriate:

https://www.millerwelds.com/equipment/welders/advanced-mig/continuum-advanced-mig-welder-m90589


----------



## zachawry

jozurr said:


> I was curious how I would have used them out of the box had I just ordered the MZ2 without LPS but that seems to have gone unanswered.
> 
> I have the LPS and currently im facing trouble powering 3-4 of my main headphones so Im not sure how Id be able to post comparisons or even use the MZ2 as an amp. Its also difficult to post comparisons as I dont have 2 pairs of same tubes, and tubes contribute to a lot of the sound, so side by side comparison would be impossible. I could have done a comparison taking out the tubes from MZ2 and using them on the LG, but currently I cant even say that MZ2 alone can even power the headphones Im using.


 

 I don't think it's possible to buy an MZ2 without some kind of accompanying power supply. Or if someone ordered one without a power supply, it would only be because they already had one from a third-party. That's like ordering a car without wheels--you only do it if you already have a great set. 
  
 As for power...I've never really gone past 12 noon, even on (relatively) power-hungry headphones like the Alpha Prime, so I can't speak to power.


----------



## Jozurr

crazychile said:


> Or maybe you listen to music a lot louder than most people. The Microzotl might not be for you. This may be more appropriate:
> 
> https://www.millerwelds.com/equipment/welders/advanced-mig/continuum-advanced-mig-welder-m90589




There is no need for digs like these. If you cant handle criticism against the magic amp, you shouldnt be in a discussion thread.


----------



## Jozurr

zachawry said:


> I don't think it's possible to buy an MZ2 without some kind of accompanying power supply. Or if someone ordered one without a power supply, it would only be because they already had one from a third-party. That's like ordering a car without wheels--you only do it if you already have a great set.
> 
> As for power...I've never really gone past 12 noon, even on (relatively) power-hungry headphones like the Alpha Prime, so I can't speak to power.




Yes my question is, what does the standard MZ2 come with, and is that not included in the deluxe package so I can try the amp without the LPS. What did your MZ2 come with before you got the LPS? maybe someone who has gotten just the MZ2 can chime in


----------



## zachawry

jozurr said:


> Yes my question is, what does the standard MZ2 come with, and is that not included in the deluxe package so I can try the amp without the LPS. What did your MZ2 come with before you got the LPS? maybe someone who has gotten just the MZ2 can chime in


 

 The standard MZ2 came with the SMPS power supply when I got it. I believe they switched to offering the LPS standard, but I'm not sure.


----------



## willsw

jozurr said:


> I thought that he only meant that for the HE6. I plugged in my LFF Code X (HE5) as well. They are lets say equivalent to HE500 power requirements wise and get too loud on the LC even under half way on the volume knob and the MZ2 cant even power these without getting distorted? Then I plugged in my Omnis and same results. Why do I keep reading these have enough power for most headphones and what not?
> 
> I read enough comparisons between the LC and MZ2 mentioning how MZ2 trumps the LC in all possible ways, without anyone mentioning that these just dont have the power for many headphones, and I assumed specs dont say everything about amps. I might be missing something completely or these are maybe just made for very easy to drive headphones only.


 
  
 Jozurr, apologies about not addressing more of your questions more clearly. It's been very busy around here.
  
 The HE-5 is also a hard to drive headphone. The HE-500 is designed to be more sensitive than the HE5 I have limited experience with, but recently used one with a MicroZOTL2 and found I could go quite loud around 1 o'clock on the pot, and had no distortion. I've listened to several different Omnis with the MicroZOTL2 and never heard distortion, nor reports of distortion. Zach of ZMF, who makes the Omni, has a MicroZOTL2 and has never mentioned distortion. 
  
 An amp needs a power supply. You can't compare the MicroZOTL2 "with and without" the LPS, you can compare it with the LTA LPS and with a different power supply. The stock model we sell comes with a smaller, lower-quality switching power supply. There are many options for power supplies you could switch out. 
  
 The LC puts out more power than the MicroZOTL2. The power output of an amplifier is not equivalent to the quality of the amplifier. I don't think anyone has claimed, nor we would claim, that the MicroZOTL2 is a good amp to listen to the HE6, HE5, or any modified version of either. 
  
 Some people think the MicroZOTL2 makes the HD-650 sound better than any amp they've tried. Some (fewer) people think it doesn't power them well enough.
  
 If you have the locking jack, the preamp output will still be active when your headphones are plugged in, though they'll share power. If only an adapter is plugged in, I don't imagine you'll be losing any power, though the signal path probably won't be as pure. We recently made available a closed circuit jack that disconnects the speaker and preamp outputs when headphones are plugged in. 
  
 If using the MicroZOTL2 as a preamp with a DC coupled Solid-state amp, *you must turn on the MZ2 BEFORE the amp and turn it off AFTER the amp*. Otherwise the turn on and turn off transients can be amplified and can be dangerous for your speakers and your power amp. We are developing an ideal way to do protection but it won't be available for a while, in a future model. The current MicroZOTL2's preamp capabilities were put in as an afterthought that has turned out to be very good, but unfortunately it is operated in the most basic way and must be operated carefully with DC-coupled power amps. 
  
 There is also the possibility that something is malfunctioning with your amp, if you're hearing all of this distortion. If you'd like to contact me via PM or via the email on our website, we could troubleshoot that with you.


----------



## willsw

@Jozurr I just tested with some Omnis, and I will give you that around 4o'clock, which is kind of painful for most music and definitely higher than I imagine anyone listening at home, I can hear some distortion, that increases until you top off around 5:30. If these are levels you like to listen at with the headphones you have, this may not be the amp for you.


----------



## doctorjazz

I don't have the Omnis in the house any more, but had them for review, mostly used the ZOTL, and at normal listening kennels (say, 11 to 1 or 2), I thought it was a great sounding combination.


----------



## Jozurr

So the stock model power supply is not included with the MZ2 Deluxe? I thought the LPS was an addition, and not a replacement of the stock power supply for the selling price of a deluxe combo, so one can switch back and forth if required, or sell the LPS etc, without having to buy an additional power supply.
  
 I tried the HE-500 as well, and going past 2 o clock on the MZ2 with it as well, I can hear distortion in the bass, just like the Omni. I've never heard power running out with any amp, even the cheaper Gustard H10 had enough power for the Omnis to be loud enough for me. My listening levels haven't changed.  When I plugged in the HE-6 on the H10, I could still hit maximum volume without distortion, just that the HE-6 werent loud enough. Maybe my source isn't as loud (AGD DAC-19), but it certainly seems to work great with the LC and LG I'm currently using. The only headphone working loud enough is the THX-00, because it is loud enough at 12 o clock. Up to 2 o clock on the knob, everything works beautifully, and it's just a TAD bit less louder than I like. After 2 o clock everything takes a nose dive. Im wont be using the HE-6 with any headphone amp, but I do it out of curiosity. but the Code-X, HE-500 and the Omni have never had problems with any of the other amps.
  
 I'm very surprised no one else would have noticed lack of power on the MZ2. I'm not sure about reports saying how the bass hits harder than the LC when I cant even go loud enough to feel the bass on it.


----------



## willsw

jozurr said:


> So the stock model power supply is not included with the MZ2 Deluxe? I thought the LPS was an addition, and not a replacement of the stock power supply for the selling price of a deluxe combo, so one can switch back and forth if required, or sell the LPS etc, without having to buy an additional power supply.
> 
> I tried the HE-500 as well, and going past 2 o clock on the MZ2 with it as well, I can hear distortion in the bass, just like the Omni. I've never heard power running out with any amp, even the cheaper Gustard H10 had enough power for the Omnis to be loud enough for me. My listening levels haven't changed.  When I plugged in the HE-6 on the H10, I could still hit maximum volume without distortion, just that the HE-6 werent loud enough. Maybe my source isn't as loud (AGD DAC-19), but it certainly seems to work great with the LC and LG I'm currently using. The only headphone working loud enough is the THX-00, because it is loud enough at 12 o clock. Up to 2 o clock on the knob, everything works beautifully, and it's just a TAD bit less louder than I like. After 2 o clock everything takes a nose dive. Im wont be using the HE-6 with any headphone amp, but I do it out of curiosity. but the Code-X, HE-500 and the Omni have never had problems with any of the other amps.
> 
> I'm very surprised no one else would have noticed lack of power on the MZ2. I'm not sure about reports saying how the bass hits harder than the LC when I cant even go loud enough to feel the bass on it.


 
  
 The AGD DAC-19 is one I've used. It sounds like your listening level is just higher than average, and the MicroZOTL2 just might not be powerful enough to make things loud enough for you. Separately from that, I'm not sure why you're equating output power with the quality of the amp, but if that's your measure, that's your measure. I can't really say anything else about it. This is why we offer (if you bought it from Urban HiFi) a 15-day return policy. 
  
 One final, very unlikely thing, is to make sure the input switch on the front is set to the correct input.


----------



## willsw

If anyone is or knows a smaller person, we have a couple of men's size small LTA shirts for sale, extras from my guessing sizes to surprise the guys with some shirts. http://www.head-fi.org/t/816357/two-lta-t-shirts-size-mens-small


----------



## Stereomojo

Perhaps I can clear up the confusion over power supplies for the MicroZotl2. Part of the confusion is due to the LTA website which does not explain what I have learned from Will. It really needs to be updated. There should be separate listings for the two different packages they offer with at least pictures of the unit with the standard power supply and another showing the unit with the upgraded power supply.

There are two packages available. One includes the standard power supply and that combo sells for $1100.

The second package, called the Deluxe, includes the bigger, better linear power supply that was designed by Mark Schneider specifically for the MZ2. The deluxe sells for $1695. 

 I don't know if you can buy an MZ2 without a power supply, but it needs a power supply to work in the same way a car needs an engine to work. It will not work without one. If you already have a compatible power supply with the correct connection, you would have to contact LTA for that type of purchase if available. 

The better linear power supply can be purchased separately later if you wish to upgrade from the standard. 

 I think it's great that they give you a choice, much less the fact that they designed the unit with an external power supply in the first place for lower noise and greater sound quality. 

 Hope this helps.


----------



## zachawry

I just auditioned the ZOTL40 power amp, and I thought I would write my impressions here in case they're of value to anyone.
  
 First, my story: I am planning on buying a pair of Dynaudio Confidence C1 bookshelf speakers. These are actually relatively hard to drive, with most people on the net recommending at least 100-200W of power. Therefore, though I was interested in the ZOTL40 (since I love the sound of my MZ2 so much!), I had pretty much written them off. I was in AudioVision in SF, where I'm planning on buying the C1s, and mentioned this to the guy, who said, "We've got the ZOTL40 here; why don't you take a listen?" So, I came back the next day with my portable set-up, and had a great extended listening session. 
  
 My setup is an AK120II strapped to a Chord Hugo. They plugged this into a stock MZ2 with LPS, which fed the ZOTL40. They didn't have any C1's around, so I listened to a pair of C2's, which are bigger but have pretty much the same sound signature. After listening to the MZ2/ZOTL40 for about half hour, they let me switch to a Naim 200 and Naim pre-amp, a solid-state set-up. 
  
 Basically, the ZOTL40 sounded a lot like the MZ2, a sound I have grown to love. It's pure and pristine to the point of being dry, almost totally transparent, with a definite sense of air. The amp just totally disappears. I felt like I could listen to that setup forever. 
  
 Next, we switched to the solid-state Naim. In some objective sense, the Naim drove the speakers better. There was more speed, greater dynamics, and in general more "authority." But...I didn't like it. I mean, I would love it off the street, but I didn't like it in comparison with the ZOTL40. The sound from the Naim was definitely more dynamic, but also more "in your face," and while I felt like they actually showcased what the speakers are capable of better than the ZOTL, they didn't make the music sound as good to me. The ZOTL40 just got out of the way, while the Naim was an impressive, imposing presence. 
  
 In the end, I switched back to the ZOTL40 and decided what I liked about it was a sense of *delicacy*. It's just a pristine, delicate sound that washes over you, as opposed to the solid-state amp, which kind of grabs you by the lapels and makes you sit the hell up. My impression was that most people would prefer the Naim. I really, really liked the ZOTL40, and came away determined to buy it.


----------



## willsw

zachawry said:


> I just auditioned the ZOTL40 power amp, and I thought I would write my impressions here in case they're of value to anyone.


 
  
 I'm glad you got a chance to listen to the 40. Given that both the audio board and power board are unique Berning designs involving a lot of custom parts, the ZOTL40 is by far the most difficult product we produce. 9 out of 10 of our power boards worked on the first try yesterday. We told David and he said, Yeah, that's pretty much my rate too.
  
 I'll also mention, since I've mentioned it on Audio Asylum (or Audiogon or somewhere else), that next weekend we're doing a big ZOTL40 tube shootout. We've been burning in a variety of of tubes and may decide that the Tung-sol EL34s are not the right one for the circuit, given how much a tube's individual character influences the ZOTL sound. We also have a few different 12AX7s and 12AU7s we'll try. I think the 40 with the new tube complement is going to be even better than the current iteration. We may also slip in some other things, but I won't mention them. None of this will affect the price. It's going to be a very exciting Saturday eight days from now. 
  
 I just wish these low-current designs burned in faster!


----------



## zachawry

willsw said:


> I'm glad you got a chance to listen to the 40. Given that both the audio board and power board are unique Berning designs involving a lot of custom parts, the ZOTL40 is by far the most difficult product we produce. 9 out of 10 of our power boards worked on the first try yesterday. We told David and he said, Yeah, that's pretty much my rate too.
> 
> I'll also mention, since I've mentioned it on Audio Asylum (or Audiogon or somewhere else), that next weekend we're doing a big ZOTL40 tube shootout. We've been burning in a variety of of tubes and may decide that the Tung-sol EL34s are not the right one for the circuit, given how much a tube's individual character influences the ZOTL sound. We also have a few different 12AX7s and 12AU7s we'll try. I think the 40 with the new tube complement is going to be even better than the current iteration. We may also slip in some other things, but I won't mention them. None of this will affect the price. It's going to be a very exciting Saturday eight days from now.
> 
> I just wish these low-current designs burned in faster!


 

 Yeah, as I mentioned to the guy at AudioVision, I have to include some tubes in the price of the amp, because no matter what I tell myself, there is no way I'm not going to experiment! (Too bad it doesn't use any of the same tubes as the MZ2!)


----------



## zachawry

>


 
  
 Yeah, as I mentioned to the guy at AudioVision, I have to include some tubes in the price of the amp, because no matter what I tell myself, there is no way I'm not going to experiment! (Too bad it doesn't use any of the same tubes as the MZ2).
  
 Let me ask a question, though: There was a hum from the ZOTL40 that I could hear with my ear 1-2 feet away (coming directly from the amp, not the speakers). Is this normal?


----------



## zachawry

sorry double post


----------



## willsw

zachawry said:


> Yeah, as I mentioned to the guy at AudioVision, I have to include some tubes in the price of the amp, because no matter what I tell myself, there is no way I'm not going to experiment! (Too bad it doesn't use any of the same tubes as the MZ2).
> 
> Let me ask a question, though: There was a hum from the ZOTL40 that I could hear with my ear 1-2 feet away (coming directly from the amp, not the speakers). Is this normal?


 
  
 A hum directly from the amp? I have two 40s here with their covers off, and I can't hear any hum with my ear to them. I vote: not normal. And probably not good. Audiovision is kind of babysitting that amp for us, in case anyone like you came along, but maybe baby should come home. 
  
 We've got a handful of premium current production and NOS tubes we're going to be running through the 40, so ideally you'll trust that we did the experimenting for you and that invisible expense can be done away with.


----------



## yukihasi

zachawry said:


> I just auditioned the ZOTL40 power amp, and I thought I would write my impressions here in case they're of value to anyone.
> 
> First, my story: I am planning on buying a pair of Dynaudio Confidence C1 bookshelf speakers. These are actually relatively hard to drive, with most people on the net recommending at least 100-200W of power. Therefore, though I was interested in the ZOTL40 (since I love the sound of my MZ2 so much!), I had pretty much written them off. I was in AudioVision in SF, where I'm planning on buying the C1s, and mentioned this to the guy, who said, "We've got the ZOTL40 here; why don't you take a listen?" So, I came back the next day with my portable set-up, and had a great extended listening session.
> 
> ...


 

 Thanks for the ZOTL40 impression, gotta love the transparent sound signature. Somewhere in the future I will start investing speakers and the easy part is I won't have to look around for amps


----------



## Maxx134

jozurr said:


> zach915m said:
> 
> 
> > Whats the source? Sorry of I missed this already.
> ...



I am thinking why do you have multiple amps tapping off the same source..

A line level output is only about 2v, and so regardless if the other units sound fine in this configuration, 

Each amp has it own input impedance so will respond differently in sensitivity, 
 and it seems to me like the problem is you should try the amp direct with your source without any other units tapping into it..

Edit if the other units are not tapping into the source, but are connected to amp outputs, then they are a simultaneous load on that amp.

Either way just try source and amp without any other gear connected.


----------



## nephilim

Today I got a HDPlex 100W linear power supply, replacing the SBooster PSU which replaced the stock switching PSU that came with the non-deluxe mZOTL. The HDPlex adds bass authority, detail and enhanced dynamics - definitely an improvement over the SBooster, which itself was above the SMPS. Highly recommended for those looking for a "budget" LPS ($395).


----------



## Jozurr

willsw said:


> The AGD DAC-19 is one I've used. It sounds like your listening level is just higher than average, and the MicroZOTL2 just might not be powerful enough to make things loud enough for you. Separately from that, I'm not sure why you're equating output power with the quality of the amp, but if that's your measure, that's your measure. I can't really say anything else about it. This is why we offer (if you bought it from Urban HiFi) a 15-day return policy.
> 
> One final, very unlikely thing, is to make sure the input switch on the front is set to the correct input.




I just use power as an initial benchmark because I cannot appreciate an amp regardless of how good it sounds, if I cant even get it to go loud enough. Im travelling but once I get back ill try a few different combos and see if things improve. 

Is it possible that something isnt functioning as intended in the amp? what would be the best way to rule that out?


----------



## jamato8

jozurr said:


> I just use power as an initial benchmark because I cannot appreciate an amp regardless of how good it sounds, if I cant even get it to go loud enough. Im travelling but once I get back ill try a few different combos and see if things improve.
> 
> Is it possible that something isnt functioning as intended in the amp? what would be the best way to rule that out?


 

 What is the voltage output of your source to the mZ2?


----------



## willsw

jozurr said:


> I just use power as an initial benchmark because I cannot appreciate an amp regardless of how good it sounds, if I cant even get it to go loud enough. Im travelling but once I get back ill try a few different combos and see if things improve.
> 
> Is it possible that something isnt functioning as intended in the amp? what would be the best way to rule that out?


 
  
 We've not encountered a malfunction that affected the volume like that or the power output of both channels equally, though it could be something unlikely, like a faulty part. If you've put certain pin-compatible tubes in you may experience less power, but it seems like you just like a higher than average volume and like headphones that need a bit more power to get to that high of a volume. I'd follow the advice of making sure you only have one amp connected to your source, so you're not sharing output voltage. I think that's all the troubleshooting I can offer without having one of our techs look at the amp.


----------



## sling5s

Just wondering if there are two versions of MicroZotl 2.0 (like a premium version). I see some selling for 1,100 (urban hifi) and most others for 1,695 (audio vision).


----------



## kendavis

sling5s said:


> Just wondering if there are two versions of MicroZotl 2.0 (like a premium version). I see some selling for 1,100 (urban hifi) and most others for 1,695 (audio vision).


 
 One includes their linear power supply: http://www.urbanhifi.com/collection/microzotldeluxe


----------



## sling5s

Missed that. That's what I was assuming. I'm sure it's talked about in the thread. Is the upgraded power supply worth the extra price?


kendavis said:


> One includes their linear power supply: http://www.urbanhifi.com/collection/microzotldeluxe


----------



## zachawry

sling5s said:


> Missed that. That's what I was assuming. I'm sure it's talked about in the thread. Is the upgraded power supply worth the extra price?


 

 Most definitely. I was totally skeptical that it would make that much of a difference, but my jaw kinda dropped when I gave my first listen to the LPS. 
  
 Blacker background (not that the background didn't seem black before), cleaner sound, more impact.


----------



## drbluenewmexico

zachawry said:


> Most definitely. I was totally skeptical that it would make that much of a difference, but my jaw kinda dropped when I gave my first listen to the LPS.
> 
> Blacker background (not that the background didn't seem black before), cleaner sound, more impact.


 

 If your jaw dropped with the LPS power supply, wait until you here the recently released ILLUMINATI power supply just
 put into production from head Mojo Benjamin  at Mojo Audio. I listened to the prototype and posted some preliminary
 comparisons about a month ago on this thread, and now have the real production one in my hands.  Still burning in after
 four days, it makes my headphones 2 from the ZOTL2 go 3D with improved soundstage, dynamics and PRAT.  Used as a
 a preamp, the ZOTL2 feeding my near field Fostex desktop system, with the ILLUMINATI power supply makes the speakers
 actually DISAPPEAR, and vanish into the sound field. Its an astounding breakthrough in SQ yielded through the ZOTL2.
 About the size of a loaf of bread, and built like a Mercedes Benz, it seems to make the music breathe and flow like nothing
 else i have heard. The ZOTL2 just loves it!!! Highly recommended! I am organizing a tour of the ILLUMINATI very soon for
 interested MICROZOTL2 owners, or anyone that can use an amazing power supply for their 5 v digital device....stay tuned.


----------



## zachawry

Yeah, I got an Illuminati too. Once I saw the light about the importance of power supplies, I ordered the best I could find.
  
 Mine is sitting right next to me, but it's still in its box because mine is built for Japan, and I'm still in the US for another couple weeks.....
  
 Can't wait to get back home and run it through its paces. Built like a monster.


----------



## sling5s

Thanks


zachawry said:


> Most definitely. I was totally skeptical that it would make that much of a difference, but my jaw kinda dropped when I gave my first listen to the LPS.
> 
> Blacker background (not that the background didn't seem black before), cleaner sound, more impact.


----------



## Solarium

mojoaudio said:


> To begin with, the HD800s have VERY high impedance, which means less than 20% of the headphone amps in the world can drive them to anywhere near their potential.
> 
> The Bottlhead amp is not one of the amps I would recommend for HD800s without modifying the output stage for high impedance headphones (requires serious re-engineering).
> 
> ...


 
 Kind of a late reply, but are you comparing the MZ2 to the Crack w/ speedball? The description of warm, beautiful and intoxicating sounds like the Crack and not the Mainline, which is much more resolving, extended and tight, as well as natural.
  
 Also, how much does the linear power supply improve the sound? Is it worth the extra $$$? I connect all my amps to my UPS with sine wave output, so not sure if additional cleaner power would make a difference.


----------



## zachawry

I've had my modded MZ2 with a Joule 5 for a few weeks now, and the sound is incredible. 
  
 It is a double-edged sword, however. 
  
 Before, I used my Hugo with the MZ2 no problem. With the mod/J5, however, I can hear a loud hum whenever the Hugo is plugged in. Sounds fine on batteries. 
  
 For the past couple weeks I've been using a Mystique DAC from Mojo Audio (can't bring myself to go back to Hugo now, BTW). 
  
 The Mystique runs off my Macbook Pro. When the MBP is plugged in, guess what, distinct hum. No hum on batteries. 
  
 I don't claim to really understand what's going on electrically, but the modded MZ2 and beefed up power supply is definitely like a hot-rod that requires highest-octane fuel.


----------



## nephilim

zachawry said:


> Before, I used my Hugo with the MZ2 no problem. With the mod/J5, however, I can hear a loud hum whenever the Hugo is plugged in. Sounds fine on batteries.
> 
> For the past couple weeks I've been using a Mystique DAC from Mojo Audio (can't bring myself to go back to Hugo now, BTW).
> 
> ...


 
  
 Sounds like a ground loop to me. I had similar issues with my mZOTL and different power supplies but was able to cure it py adding grouding wires. With the Hugo not fed by batteries, does the hum change when you touch e.g. the RCA sockets on the back of the ZOTL?


----------



## danielleesq

Just ordered the amp. It can't get here fast enough!


----------



## Wildcatsare1

danielleesq said:


> Just ordered the amp. It can't get here fast enough![/quo
> 
> You will love it, one of the best amps out there, and a bathing at the asking price!


----------



## doctorjazz

power supply review linked to in my profile, for all interested (A Tale of 3 Power Supplies).


----------



## zachawry

doctorjazz said:


> power supply review linked to in my profile, for all interested (A Tale of 3 Power Supplies).


 
  
 I can't find it. Where is the link in your profile?


----------



## staxfreak

http://headphone.guru/absolute-power-thrills-absolutely-or-a-tale-of-three-power-supplies-mojo-joule-v5-linear-power-supply/


----------



## MojoAudio

staxfreak said:


> http://headphone.guru/absolute-power-thrills-absolutely-or-a-tale-of-three-power-supplies-mojo-joule-v5-linear-power-supply/


 
  
 FYI, we've recently had a number of these Joule v5 power supplies traded in on our new Illuminati.
  
 Some of those guys who have owned both our Joule v5 and have just upgraded to our Illuminati will be posting on drbluenewmexico's new Upgraded microZOTL2 thread.
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/818130/microzotl2-upgrade-discovery-thread
  
 Since my last DIY upgrade post on this thread there have been many advancements.
  
 I'll be posting more DIY upgrades for fuses, resonance control, capacitors, and advanced wiring over the next month or two.
  
 Some of you may want to link to the new mZ2 upgrade thread


----------



## yukihasi

Received my Illuminati power supply last weekend! 
Posted my impressions for the upgrade and power supplies in the upgrading thread, hope some will find it helpful
http://www.head-fi.org/t/818130/microzotl2-upgrade-discovery-thread#post_12823508


----------



## sheldaze

Congratulations on the MassDrop collaboration!


----------



## MojoAudio

sheldaze said:


> Congratulations on the MassDrop collaboration!


 
  
 Yes, LTA should be very proud


----------



## doctorjazz

Very cool, congrats on the Massdrop listing. It's not clear (to me), though, what (if anything) is different about the Massdrop version besides the tubes.


----------



## danielleesq

I just ordered this amp two days ago, is there going to be an official upgrade program for current owners that won't void the warranty? I don't want to wait until October to get one but that Massdrop faceplate is gorgeous.


----------



## EdmontonCanuck

sheldaze said:


> Congratulations on the MassDrop collaboration!


 
 What MassDrop collaboration? Is there a link?


----------



## sheldaze

edmontoncanuck said:


> What MassDrop collaboration? Is there a link?


 

https://www.massdrop.com/buy/linear-tube-audio-mz2-s-headphone-and-speaker-amp?mode=guest_open


----------



## willsw

doctorjazz said:


> Very cool, congrats on the Massdrop listing. It's not clear (to me), though, what (if anything) is different about the Massdrop version besides the tubes.


 
  
 The board itself has been changed to allow us to use 12SN7 tubes instead of 6SN7 tubes. Their sonic signature is, according to most accounts, identical, except that the prices for NOS 12SN7 tubes makes it feasible for us to offer them as a stock tubes in the unit, along with the well-regarded (in this thread) 6201 variant of the 12AT7. Superficially, the power button is white and the screws are silver-colored steel. If you buy it through Massdrop you also get a set of shiny brass screws for that gold-like bling, which won't come with the amp once it's sold through our website.
  


danielleesq said:


> I just ordered this amp two days ago, is there going to be an official upgrade program for current owners that won't void the warranty? I don't want to wait until October to get one but that Massdrop faceplate is gorgeous.


 
  
 The faceplate you ordered (and all black faceplates) will look the same, except you'll have a red LED power button and red screws, to denote the 6SN7 model. The MZ2-S is only available in black and with the C/C jack and the LPS, while the MicroZOTL2 is still available in blue or black, with locking or C/C jack, and a choice between standard power supply or LPS. 
  
 The upgraded PCBs will from now be standard for all 12SN7 and 6SN7 models (trickle it on dowwwwn)


----------



## zachawry

Congrats on the Massdrop. Lack of wider acknowledgement of the MZ2's awesomeness has always seemed a shame to me.


----------



## willsw

zachawry said:


> Congrats on the Massdrop. Lack of wider acknowledgement of the MZ2's awesomeness has always seemed a shame to me.


 
  
 I think that how transparently the ZOTL reflects tube character combined with the Tung-sols gives it a particular sound signature that you have to enjoy before delving deeper in. The NOS tubes let you arrive at a certain depth already. I'm excited to read the first reviews of the MZ2-S.


----------



## kendavis

My Massdrop order is in!


----------



## Lavakugel

Whats the difference between microzotl vs lps?


----------



## willsw

lavakugel said:


> Whats the difference between microzotl vs lps?


 
  
 The MicroZOTL2 is the amp, which comes with an external power supply that is a very standard switch-mode supply when the $1100 base model is purchased. The "LPS" is the Linear Power Supply, which comes with the "MicroZOTL2 Deluxe" and is a large improvement over the switch-mode power supply, which is why it's more expensive. Pretty much every aspect of the sound is improved when the power is improved, if the circuit of the amplifier is well-designed.


----------



## Lavakugel

I liked the first zotl better because I could see the tubes. Has anybody compared zotl2 vs eddie current black widow? They are nearly the same price-range.


----------



## willsw

lavakugel said:


> I liked the first zotl better because I could see the tubes.


 
  
 The amp section is the same, it still has the clear top. If you look at this image, the amp is on the left, and the LPS is on the right, it is the external power supply.


----------



## sling5s

Another LC owner switching over to the Microzotl 2.0. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Just placed an order for Microzotl 2.0 Deluxe (tempted to go stock but decided to upgrade the power supply) from Urban HiFi. I was hoping for free shipping but I guess they don't offer it.


----------



## doctorjazz

sling5s said:


> Another LC owner switching over to the Microzotl 2.0.
> Just placed an order for Microzotl 2.0 Deluxe (tempted to go stock but decided to upgrade the power supply) from Urban HiFi. I was hoping for free shipping but I guess they don't offer it.




I'm curious if you heard it, or have gone on the word of mouth. Having both amps, I'm sure you'll be happy with the upgrade. Congrats.

(I get the sense the LC is like a gateway drug for some, who bought it and realized there is better sound out there than their smartphone. Once they hear the difference, the natural thought is, "amps do make a difference, what does upgrading from here get me...)


----------



## sling5s

doctorjazz said:


> I'm curious if you heard it, or have gone on the word of mouth. Having both amps, I'm sure you'll be happy with the upgrade. Congrats.


 

 All on word of mouth. I like the LC but I like open wide soundstage which the LC lacks.


----------



## doctorjazz

sling5s said:


> doctorjazz said:
> 
> 
> > I'm curious if you heard it, or have gone on the word of mouth. Having both amps, I'm sure you'll be happy with the upgrade. Congrats.
> ...




I'm sure you'll find the ZOTL does it for youthen if that's what you wanted. It's a big step up from the LC (and I like the LC).


----------



## saidentary

sling5s said:


> Another LC owner switching over to the Microzotl 2.0.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I don't know what the Liquid Carbon sounds like because I've never heard it, but people (like doctorjazz) have said good things about it.  So the following prediction is based _solely_ on my experience with the MZ2, and not how it compares with the Liquid Carbon, which I can't speak to.  (Note also that I still have the stock power supply, not the upgrade, which everyone has said is better.) 
  
 Prediction: Once you hear how phenomenal the MZ2 sounds, you won't care that you had to pay for the shipping.


----------



## sling5s

saidentary said:


> I don't know what the Liquid Carbon sounds like because I've never heard it, but people (like doctorjazz) have said good things about it.  So the following prediction is based _solely_ on my experience with the MZ2, and not how it compares with the Liquid Carbon, which I can't speak to.  (Note also that I still have the stock power supply, not the upgrade, which everyone has said is better.)
> 
> Prediction: Once you hear how phenomenal the MZ2 sounds, you won't care that you had to pay for the shipping.


 
  
 I hope so. The LC is a very forward and intimate sounding amp. 
 And I got the ungraded power supply because I wanted to be "done" if you know what I mean. 
 Everyone seems to say the stock tubes are good enough to be left alone but seemed to strongly recommend upgrading the power supply.
 The smoothing of the treble and tightening of the bass can make all the difference sometimes.


----------



## zachawry

Basically, the LC sounds more "saturated" and "dense", while the MZ2 sounds more clear, airy, transparent. 

I imagine some people would prefer the LC, but I just love the purity of the MZ2 sound.


----------



## aqsw

Just came over from the Elise thread to read the stink up on our amps. I must say it was very unprofessional from the mojo man. 

Congrats on the Massdrop. I'm sure it will help the Zotl in the marketing scheme. After that, the wonderful product will do the rest.

Regards


----------



## MojoAudio

aqsw said:


> Just came over from the Elise thread to read the stink up on our amps. I must say it was very unprofessional from the mojo man.
> 
> Congrats on the Massdrop. I'm sure it will help the Zotl in the marketing scheme. After that, the wonderful product will do the rest.
> 
> Regards


 
  
 I have no affiliation with LTA, the manufacturers of the microZOTL2.
  
 I was attempting to teach people on this thread that you can not compare the highest performance economy products with actual high-performance products.
  
 Note that what I originally compared the Elise to was an amp similar in engineering schema not even made by LTA or upgradeable by one of my company's power supplies that sells for something like 3X the price of the Elise.
  
 I was also not stating in any way that a stock mZ2 that sells for $1,100 was as good or better than the Elise, only different.
  
 The point I was attempting to make was that because the mZ2 has an external power supply, people are able to easily upgrade it to a level far beyond what a the stock mZ2 is capable of delivering.
  
 This would be true of ANY component with an external power supply and not just the mZ2, and this would be true of any other high-performance power supply, and not just the ones my company manufactures.
  
 I'm sincerely apologize to everyone on this thread if my postings were misunderstood.


----------



## sling5s

I placed an order urban hifi but it seems it's also on Massdrop. Are the upgraded tubes and upgraded power supply (LTA, LPS) on Massdrop version significantly better? It seems you get more for less on Massdrop's Microzotl 2.


----------



## willsw

sling5s said:


> I placed an order urban hifi but it seems it's also on Massdrop. Are the upgraded tubes and upgraded power supply (LTA, LPS) on Massdrop version significantly better? It seems you get more for less on Massdrop's Microzotl 2.


 
  
 I replied to your email, but thought I'd reply here as well. The "Massdrop version" is actually an introduction of a new product, the MZ2-S, which is very similar to the MicroZOTL2 but is not an interchangeable version due to the circuitry being different. We did a Massdrop exclusive release at a discount because we usually have introductory sales for our products, and were excited to work on something with Massdrop. After today (it's very early Tuesday where I am), you will not be able to find an MZ2-S for under the retail of $1845. As soon as we ship the Massdrop units, sales for the new amp will be available on the LTA website. 
  
 The MZ2-S uses 12SN7 tubes instead of 6SN7 tubes. The sound signature is essentially identical (if one were to have the same company make a tube of the same quality, the 6SN7 version would sound the same as the 12SN7), but the greater availability of certain NOS 12SN7s allows us to use high-quality NOS tubes without raising the price significantly. We also chose to use NOS 6201 tubes, a variation of the 12AT7, due to positive feedback regarding that tube by customers. We envisioned the MZ2-S as a "pre-rolled" amp that is ideal for people who are interested in NOS tubes and rolling tubes but don't know where to start and don't necessarily want to invest money in that uncertain and slippery slope. Thinking about it as a real endgame amp at its price-point, we also decided to upgrade the power supply where we could without needing a new chassis.
  
 The advantages of the MZ2-S is that we've done the research and the listening tests and chosen NOS tubes that we think work very well in the amp, and it comes with the upgraded power supply. The possible disadvantage is that it only comes in one color, it will only be available with the closed-circuit jack (non-locking, disconnects the other outputs when headphones are plugged in), there are fewer varieties of 12SN7s than 6SN7s if you do want to get creative, and, relatedly, you won't be able to use your possibly already existing collection of great 6SN7 tubes with it. We are also only offering the MZ2-S in the $1845 version, there is no option for the standard power supply as there is for the $1100 model of the MicroZOTL2. 
  
 We believe there is an appeal to both the MicroZOTL2 and the MZ2-S. We still think the current-production Tung-sols sound great in the amp. We don't offer more options for the MZ2-S as it would have to be priced higher, as the four great guys who make all of our products wouldn't be able to streamline its production, and we wanted to offer it as reasonably-priced as possible.
  
 I hope that clears up any confusion regarding the "Massdrop version" and the MicroZOTL2 and the MZ2-S The MZ2-S might need its own thread, but I don't decide those things, and maybe it can coexist here happily.


----------



## staxfreak

willsw said:


> We also chose to use NOS 6201 tubes, a variation of the 12AT7, due to positive feedback regarding that tube by customers.




6201 is equivalent to 12AT7 = same in MicroZOTL2 - what's new?
http://tungsol.com/tungsol/html/12at7-tung-sol.html


----------



## willsw

staxfreak said:


> 6201 is equivalent to 12AT7 = same in MicroZOTL2 - what's new?
> http://tungsol.com/tungsol/html/12at7-tung-sol.html




Yes, it is equivalent, and actually the GE tubes we're using are labeled with both numbers. The difference, as far as I know, is relevant when referring to older tubes, as the 6201 was originally a mill-spec version of the 12AT7, and therefore the production wasn't necessarily identical, though the tubes are functionally.


----------



## Rameish

willsw, i've always loved the original MicroZolt - ever since i heard one (a red version) more than 10 years ago. We lovingly called it the toaster . I've pulled the trigger on the Massdrop version MZ 2S. One question about the power supply - i live in Singapore 230 volts  50hz. Shouldn't be an issue yes? A simple flick of the voltage selector, but what about the 50hz?Thanking you in advance for taking the time to reply. Cheers


----------



## sling5s

willsw said:


> I replied to your email, but thought I'd reply here as well. The "Massdrop version" is actually an introduction of a new product, the MZ2-S, which is very similar to the MicroZOTL2 but is not an interchangeable version due to the circuitry being different. We did a Massdrop exclusive release at a discount because we usually have introductory sales for our products, and were excited to work on something with Massdrop. After today (it's very early Tuesday where I am), you will not be able to find an MZ2-S for under the retail of $1845. As soon as we ship the Massdrop units, sales for the new amp will be available on the LTA website.
> 
> The MZ2-S uses 12SN7 tubes instead of 6SN7 tubes. The sound signature is essentially identical (if one were to have the same company make a tube of the same quality, the 6SN7 version would sound the same as the 12SN7), but the greater availability of certain NOS 12SN7s allows us to use high-quality NOS tubes without raising the price significantly. We also chose to use NOS 6201 tubes, a variation of the 12AT7, due to positive feedback regarding that tube by customers. We envisioned the MZ2-S as a "pre-rolled" amp that is ideal for people who are interested in NOS tubes and rolling tubes but don't know where to start and don't necessarily want to invest money in that uncertain and slippery slope. Thinking about it as a real endgame amp at its price-point, we also decided to upgrade the power supply where we could without needing a new chassis.
> 
> ...


 

 Thank you for explaining the differences. I know it will perform better but I would still like to know more in terms of the "sound" advantages. What will I "hear" that is different and improved?


----------



## sling5s

willsw said:


> I think Mark's move of the transparency from the front to the top was a significant improvement in visual association. 50hz is no problem, and we'll send you a pre-flicked power supply.
> 
> 
> 
> Compared to the current-production Tung-sols, the NOS tubes give treble that is a bit more refined and slightly less bright, and more heft is felt in the bass. Overall we found that after listening for a while there was just a bit more fullness to the sound, and the upgraded power supply contributes to clarity and the ever-blackening background (what is blacker than black?). You can read about others' impressions after using NOS 6SN7s, as it will be a similar effect.


 

 Thank you. Is the amp "Chassis" also different? Is the iodized aluminum faceplate only in the M2-S?
 Sorry for so many questions.
  
 Edit:Nevermind, just looked at some pictures and it looks the same.


----------



## MojoAudio

After sleeping on it I realized that rather than justifying some of the posts I made yesterday I should be apologizing to people I may have offended.
  
 People that know me recognize me as some type of "idiot savant" with amazing technical skills and far less people skills.
  
 I always have the best of intentions, but that doesn't justify my inappropriate behavior.
  
 Likely everything I put in those posts was technically right, but posting technical information in that way on this forum was not the right thing to do.
  
 This forum is certainly not the place for an engineer to debate technology with hobbyists, and I'm not even sure that there would be any place that would be appropriate.
  
 So I would like to publically apologize to those companies and hobbyists I may have offended.
  
 I would also like to state that I am deleting my subscription to this thread.
  
 Before I go I want to clarify two things...
  
 First of all, when I used the term "euphonic distortion" that is in no way an insult. Euphonic means "pleasurable" and euphonic distortion is when a component sounds great but is not empirically accurate. Another term for this would be "voicing."
  
 Companies spend significant amounts of time and money to engineer and develop their signature sound, and in most cases, these are one form of euphonic distortion or another. It is neither good nor bad, only engineered to please a specific type of customer and to synergize with specific products of a certain sonic character.
  
 Then there is the case of the relationship between LTA and me. There is none. As a matter of fact, some months ago I offended them with my lack of diplomacy, and I would guess right about now that they're wishing I would find another favorite headphone amp to upgrade.
  
 For those of you that are enjoying whatever you're listening to, by all means continue to enjoy it. The joy of the music is the highest point of this hobby and the technology is nothing more than a necessary evil.
 For those of you that are interested in that illusive next level stuff, you know where to find me


----------



## sling5s

Sorry to hear that Mojo Audio. People do take their gear very personally. 
 On the lighter note: I was able to cancel my M2 Deluxe for the Massdrop M2-S version. 
 Really excited. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 The only down side is that it's a longer wait. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 For those who already have the upgraded tubes through your own tube rolling, chime in let me know what I might hear with M2-S and it's upgraded tubes.


----------



## willsw

sling5s said:


> Thank you. Is the amp "Chassis" also different? Is the iodized aluminum faceplate only in the M2-S?
> Sorry for so many questions.
> 
> Edit:Nevermind, just looked at some pictures and it looks the same.


 
  
 The amp is superficially only different in the color of the screws (silver instead of red) and the color of the power button LED (white instead of red). If you order a black faceplate for your MicroZOTL2 or order an MZ2S, they will be the same anodized black. They all say "microZOTL" because that's where they all originate from, of course.


----------



## aqsw

I couldn't resist. I have been looking at this zotl for awhile.
I commited on Massdrop. The Cavalli LC is going up for sale.
Well, I guess we are going to get that Elise vs Zotl comparison soon.

Im real excited.
 I also love how everybody on the zotl site and the Elise site have never bashed each other, except for one peron tht admitted he had never heard the Elise.

I think Im going to have the best of two worlds.


----------



## sling5s

aqsw said:


> I couldn't resist. I have been looking at this zotl for awhile.
> I commited on Massdrop. The Cavalli LC is going up for sale.
> Well, I guess we are going to get that Elise vs Zotl comparison soon.
> 
> ...


 

 Will be looking forward to your MicroZOTL2-S  and Elise comparisons.


----------



## aqsw

sling5s said:


> Will be looking forward to your MicroZOTL2-S  and Elise comparisons.




Thank you,

I will of course be doing one myself, but just to make everything fair, I am also lending out the equipment to a very (more knowledgable)person than I who has
no bias. It should be very interesting. The comparisons will be the stock powers and EL3N drivers on the Elise, versus whatever arrives on the zotl.
The same dac will be used, (Hegel HD12)

P.S. I do expect the zotl to win, as the Elise runs about $750 with the tubes. I think it might be closer thn some think though.


----------



## nephilim

Looking forward to the comparison. I used Elise for several months and changed to the ZOTL but I have no $80000 audio equipment experience, so I am not qualified to do a comparison. I am glad the ZOTL-S will be compared, as I have never been a fan of the current production TS 6SN7 which are shipped with the ZOTL and will be replaced by NOS 12SN7 on the ZOTL-S.


----------



## doctorjazz

I have to say, I've never heard the Elise, and wasn't aware of any goings on at the Elise thread (I do own both the ZOTL and the LC), now I'm really curious to read about it.


----------



## sling5s

nephilim said:


> Looking forward to the comparison. I used Elise for several months and changed to the ZOTL but I have no $80000 audio equipment experience, so I am not qualified to do a comparison. I am glad the ZOTL-S will be compared, as I have never been a fan of the current production TS 6SN7 which are shipped with the ZOTL and will be replaced by NOS 12SN7 on the ZOTL-S.


 

 Can you offer some impressions? Would really appreciate it. Not looking for a professional review. Just what you heard. 
 Thanks in advance.
 Actually I'll PM you.


----------



## Jozurr

Im also very interested in reading the impressions of the MZ2 against the Elise.


----------



## Jozurr

Has anyone tried the ECC31 on the MZ2? is the MZ2 capable of handling the power of the ECC31?


----------



## nephilim

Yes, I tried it but with external heating power. AFAIK the ECC31 exceeds the ZOTL's limits. I must admit I forgot how it sounds - but I never went back


----------



## Jozurr

nephilim said:


> Yes, I tried it but with external heating power. AFAIK the ECC31 exceeds the ZOTL's limits. I must admit I forgot how it sounds - but I never went back


 
  
 What kind of external heating power? Would the ECC31 with 6SN7 adapters work with the MZ2+LPS?


----------



## willsw

jozurr said:


> What kind of external heating power? Would the ECC31 with 6SN7 adapters work with the MZ2+LPS?


 
  
 Allow me to re-post his original image. Nephilim has made his MicroZOTL2 fully his own.


----------



## nephilim

Thanks Will  The adapter I used can be found here: http://www.ebay.de/itm/1pc-Octal-Special-saver-for-6SN7-6BL7-ect-/191741357847

You will need an additional power supply yielding at least 2A at 6.3V. As the tube draws more current than nominal during the first couple of seconds I would recommend going for a higher current output. Keep in mind that external heating can introduce several problems you did not have before :evil:


----------



## Jozurr

nephilim said:


> Thanks Will  The adapter I used can be found here: http://www.ebay.de/itm/1pc-Octal-Special-saver-for-6SN7-6BL7-ect-/191741357847
> 
> You will need an additional power supply yielding at least 2A at 6.3V. As the tube draws more current than nominal during the first couple of seconds I would recommend going for a higher current output. Keep in mind that external heating can introduce several problems you did not have before


 
  
 Does the LPS not have that power? and in summary I can not use the ECC31 with 6SN7 Adapters directly on the MZ2 with LPS? I dont want to go through the hassle of using these special adapters and more power supplies, but I have the ECC31 with me which I'd love to try without risking any damage to anything.


----------



## nephilim

jozurr said:


> Does the LPS not have that power? and in summary I can not use the ECC31 with 6SN7 Adapters directly on the MZ2 with LPS? I dont want to go through the hassle of using these special adapters and more power supplies, but I have the ECC31 with me which I'd love to try without risking any damage to anything.




The LPS might provide sufficient power but the ZOTL's circuit (including the fuse) is designed for the lower current requirements of the 6SN7 and as far as I know the ECC31 will at least require a higher rated fuse. But then I would not mess around with it because I do not understand if there are further restrictions down the road. So I went with the adapters mentioned above which feed heater pins 7 & 8 from an external source. On this basis I can use other tubes with their specific adapters (FDD20, ECC31, C3gS, etc).

Two notes:
1) Some adapters are too bulky for the restricted space inside the ZOTL -> bigger effort required to make a custom top with sockets
2) The non-6SN7 tubes will most likely not run in their optimal configuration. I have no idea if that will lead to issues with the tubes or the amp. So far I am very happy that everything is running w/o problems but in case one day the amp is a black molten mass, I will certainly not blame it on Will


----------



## jamato8

I have been using the 6SN7W for some time now with the mZ2 and the 7062. Working out well. Wonderful timbre and articulation of sound with very good imaging and overall soundstage. I am using mostly the Utopia now with them.


----------



## Jozurr

jamato8 said:


> I have been using the 6SN7W for some time now with the mZ2 and the 7062. Working out well. Wonderful timbre and articulation of sound with very good imaging and overall soundstage. I am using mostly the Utopia now with them.


 
  
 Yes I was considering opening up the amp and rolling tubes on it, but 14 screws with the Allen key puts me off. How big are the differences if I just roll the 6SN7 tubes?


----------



## jamato8

jozurr said:


> Yes I was considering opening up the amp and rolling tubes on it, but 14 screws with the Allen key puts me off. How big are the differences if I just roll the 6SN7 tubes?


 

 I only keep 4 screw in or none. It depends upon the 6SN7 tube used. I like the 6SN7W with a excellent sense of depth and tonality. The 7062 doesn't cost much but neither do the 12AT7's and thankfully, they are pretty common.


----------



## sling5s

My microZOTL2-S (massdrop version with upgraded LPS and tubes) is to arrive Tuesday.  Since the tubes are internal and not external to the amp, how does Urban Hifi ship the amp and tubes?


----------



## hrq12345

sling5s said:


> My microZOTL2-S (massdrop version with upgraded LPS and tubes) is to arrive Tuesday.  Since the tubes are internal and not external to the amp, how does Urban Hifi ship the amp and tubes?


 
 The upgraded tubes are installed. You won't have the original tubes.


----------



## sling5s

hrq12345 said:


> The upgraded tubes are installed. You won't have the original tubes.


 
 If the tubes come installed, how does it not get loose during shipping/delivery process?


----------



## staxfreak

They are guaranteed not loose - sit bombproof


----------



## jamato8

sling5s said:


> If the tubes come installed, how does it not get loose during shipping/delivery process?


 

 As above, they are very secure. Good tube sockets have a tight grip on the tube pins. Nothing wrong with taking the top off and checking them but it would take tremendous downward force, with the amp upside down, to dislodge them and with that, you would notice some type of impact to the box. 
  
 I bought a nice Hickok 439C years ago. It is a tube tester with 2 rectifier tubes. Sometimes they had devices to hold the tubes in place, as they sit sideways. Anyway during shipping they had dropped the tester from quite a height and torn everything loose inside the test from the would case. Very sad and I got the post office to reimburse for repair costs. But the tubes, still in place even with that horrible abuse. 
  
 Loving the sound of the mZ2 and the Focal Utopia. An excellent combination and it works extremely well with the HE1000 V2 as well. Very good 3D type of presentation with tons of layering and separation with either headphone!


----------



## sling5s

jamato8 said:


> As above, they are very secure. Good tube sockets have a tight grip on the tube pins. Nothing wrong with taking the top off and checking them but it would take tremendous downward force, with the amp upside down, to dislodge them and with that, you would notice some type of impact to the box.
> 
> Loving the sound of the mZ2 and the Focal Utopia. An excellent combination and it works extremely well with the HE1000 V2 as well. Very good 3D type of presentation with tons of layering and separation with either headphone!


 
 Thanks. I've been reading a lot of great impressions about the Focal Utopia. Sadly way out of my price point. But definitely want to hear it.
 I'll being using the HD800 and Grado "Nhoord driver" Custom builds (which I find sounds better "to my ears" than Grado RS2e, RS1e and GH1). 
 I'll be comparing the ZOTL2-S with Cavalli Carbon.


----------



## jamato8

On some well recorded music, there is a spooky quality to the music with the Utopia and mZ2 combination. So real, there is a quality, that for me is very hard to explain. An air, clarity and is even better than a lot of live music I have heard in person. 
  
 I am using the 6SN7W, 7062 tube set. The stock tubes they now use are great, just let the whole rig burn in some.


----------



## sling5s

jamato8 said:


> On some well recorded music, there is a spooky quality to the music with the Utopia and mZ2 combination. So real, there is a quality, that for me is very hard to explain. An air, clarity and is even better than a lot of live music I have heard in person.
> 
> I am using the 6SN7W, 7062 tube set. The stock tubes they now use are great, just let the whole rig burn in some.


 

 Is it ok to leave the power supply on all the time?


----------



## sling5s

My MicroZOTL2-S sounded pretty good right out of the box. It seemed to have been burned in (not fully but well enough). 
 My initial impressions are that they are very very open and clean sounding. Great imaging and layers of detail.
 But I got to say that while I can really appreciate the ZOTL2-S, I also appreciate the Cavalli Carbon's presentation: fuller and forward mids. Makes for more fun listening.


----------



## zachawry

sling5s said:


> My MicroZOTL2-S sounded pretty good right out of the box. It seemed to have been burned in (not fully but well enough).
> My initial impressions are that they are very very open and clean sounding. Great imaging and layers of detail.
> But I got to say that while I can really appreciate the ZOTL2-S, I also appreciate the Cavalli Carbon's presentation: fuller and forward mids. Makes for more fun listening.


 

 Yeah, we've been down this road before. 
  
 I had the Carbon too. Really liked it. The day after I got my MZ2, I literally never listened to my Carbon again. 
  
 Then again, I can imagine someone saying the exact opposite, and I wouldn't be surprised. It's just a matter of taste.


----------



## sling5s

aqsw said:


> Thank you,
> 
> I will of course be doing one myself, but just to make everything fair, I am also lending out the equipment to a very (more knowledgable)person than I who has
> no bias. It should be very interesting. The comparisons will be the stock powers and EL3N drivers on the Elise, versus whatever arrives on the zotl.
> ...


 

 Has your Zotl2-s arrived? Anticipating your comparisons.


----------



## sling5s

I love how open sounding this is but even with the upgraded tubes it sounds lean (to me) at times. I wish it had a little more lower mids.  
 Will these sound different at all with more burn in?
 If not, I'm thinking of complementing the Zotl2-S with some Elise Feliks which has the more typical tube sound.


----------



## willsw

sling5s said:


> I love how open sounding this is but even with the upgraded tubes it sounds lean (to me) at times. I wish it had a little more lower mids.
> Will these sound different at all with more burn in?
> If not, I'm thinking of complementing the Zotl2-S with some Elise Feliks which has the more typical tube sound.


 
  
 You could try swapping out the 12AT7 tubes for some Mullards or another British brand, or RCAs, according to http://www.audiotubes.com/12at7.htm
  
 The MZ2-S (or any ZOTL amp) won't have a typical tube sound, as, in addition to not being coupled to a transformer, it's a unique tube circuit that only Berning-designed amps have.


----------



## sling5s

willsw said:


> You could try swapping out the 12AT7 tubes for some Mullards or another British brand, or RCAs, according to http://www.audiotubes.com/12at7.htm
> 
> The MZ2-S (or any ZOTL amp) won't have a typical tube sound, as, in addition to not being coupled to a transformer, it's a unique tube circuit that only Berning-designed amps have.


 

 Thanks
 I wasn't expecting the tube lush/richness but it sounded really thin and bright/edgy this morning. 
 I left it on all day and returned and now it seems better. I guess I'll just have to be patient and let it burn in before rushing too early conclusions.


----------



## hrq12345

sling5s said:


> Thanks
> I wasn't expecting the tube lush/richness but it sounded really thin and bright/edgy this morning.
> I left it on all day and returned and now it seems better. I guess I'll just have to be patient and let it burn in before rushing too early conclusions.


 
 Try switching the Mullard 12AU7, which is what I am using. The sound is still open and clear but with more lushness.


----------



## sling5s

hrq12345 said:


> Try switching the Mullard 12AU7, which is what I am using. The sound is still open and clear but with more lushness.


 

 Will they work on mine? Did you mean Mullard 12AT7?
 I have the upgraded Zotl2-S version which comes with RCA 12SN7 and a pair of 6201 tubes, a military-spec version of the 12AT7.


----------



## jamato8

sling5s said:


> Will they work on mine? Did you mean Mullard 12AT7?
> I have the upgraded Zotl2-S version which comes with RCA 12SN7 and a pair of 6201 tubes, a military-spec version of the 12AT7.


 

 You can also try the 7062 which is a very nice tube. It has a long box plate design and they last a very long time. Also, depending on how much time you have on your amp, you may need more on time. I think it needs around 150 to 200 hours to totally settle, which in my experience is common among many amps and electronics as the caps have to form and everything else needs to settle. I also think the amp, once burned in sounds best from around 1 hour on after being turned on. The tubes that you got with the S version are very good and you got some nice NOS 12SN7's, which provide great sound.


----------



## hrq12345

sling5s said:


> Will they work on mine? Did you mean Mullard 12AT7?
> I have the upgraded Zotl2-S version which comes with RCA 12SN7 and a pair of 6201 tubes, a military-spec version of the 12AT7.


 
 12AU7 and 12AT7 are equivalent. I don't know if Mullard has 12AT7 though because I searched a lot and there was only 12AU7.


----------



## sling5s

Selling my Cavalli Carbon and placed an order for the Elise Feliks. I wanted a full, lush and euphonic (yes harmonically distorted) sounding tube amp to complement my more ultra clear and clean (harmonically undistorted) microZOTL2-S.


----------



## doctorjazz

I haven't heard the Elise, but my impression of the LC is that it does that euphonic tube sound without tubes...


----------



## sling5s

doctorjazz said:


> I haven't heard the Elise, but my impression of the LC is that it does that euphonic tube sound without tubes...


 

 There's a subtle hints of it (slight forward lower mids) but it still lacks that lushness and open 3D holographic nature of tubes (at least to my ears).
 I wanted a Solid State that sounded like tubes with the convenience of Solid State so I got the Cavalli Carbon, but now the Zotl2-S fits that bill.
 It's a tube amp for sure, but it has the convenience of Solid State in that I don't have to worry about leaving it on for longer periods.
 I figured I try the Elise and get the tubey sound without trying to tube roll the Zotl2. I don't think the Zotl2 will ever have the tubey harmonically distorted sound no matter what tube I roll. Because it's just not designed that way. 
 If anything, I wanted another tube amp for the bedroom and once you get used to the tube sound (had Lyr2 and WA-6 and MAD EAR), solid state doesn't really do it.


----------



## jamato8

hrq12345 said:


> 12AU7 and 12AT7 are equivalent. I don't know if Mullard has 12AT7 though because I searched a lot and there was only 12AU7.


 

 Who told you they are equivalent? They have different operating points and different resistance and their gain is totally different with the 12aT7 around 60 and the 12AU7 about 20.


----------



## RedBull

Mullard equivalent for 12AT7 is CV4024.


----------



## hrq12345

jamato8 said:


> Who told you they are equivalent? They have different operating points and different resistance and their gain is totally different with the 12aT7 around 60 and the 12AU7 about 20.


 
 Some friend told me that they are mostly equivalent. Maybe he was wrong.


----------



## mjm6

Folks,
  
 I'm looking for a new amp for my phones, and I think the micro ZOTL2 may be a good one to consider, but I have a few questions...
  
 I've read all the posts (except the somewhat frenetic posts of the Mojo guy, which seemed out of place here and should have been in a different thread).
  
 I'm currently running a Fiios X5 into a Lyr2 to a new pair of HiFiMan Edition Xv2 phones. Before that, it was into a pair of HE-400i phones.
  
 I just purchased a Metrum Musette to put into the stream as the DAC, and I wanted to upgrade the Lyr2 to something a bit better, and was thinking of the Mjolnir2 because it uses the same tubes, which I can then carry over to them (I have some great NOS Siemens in the lyr2 ATM).
  
 Anyway, I have been reading the posts on this new amp and am very impressed with the discussion and overall feedback, along with the reviews I've read, so I thought it may be a good alternate.
  
 The New 's' version is a bit of a stretch for me, as I was hoping to keep it around $1000 or so. Not sure what it cost during the Massdrop promo, but it probably would have been able to talk myself into it at a discount. Too bad I missed it...
  
 Anyway, I need some thoughts on the new 's' version vs. the older version. Since they are supposedly similarly sounding, is there a compelling reason to choose one over the other?
  
 It seems that I can get a 'tweaked' HP amp in the 's' version, with NOS tubes, etc., but at what expense? Does the more limited tube selection present a drawback?
  
 While I'm not a huge tube roller, I will happily do some, so I am wondering if I should go for the non-'s' version in favor of doing some tube rolling.
  
 Beyond that, are there any other compelling differences I should consider?
  
  
  
 Thanks,
  
  
 ---Michael


----------



## zachawry

mjm6 said:


> Folks,
> 
> I'm looking for a new amp for my phones, and I think the micro ZOTL2 may be a good one to consider, but I have a few questions...
> 
> ...


 

 Michael,
  
 My experience is that the base MZ2, with stock power supply and stock tubes, is excellent. It provides a transparent, clear sound, with a large soundstage. 
  
 My impression is that the Mjolnir 2 is more of a "fun" sounding amp. I don't have it, but I was researching it for a while myself. 
  
 However, the MZ2 also has amazing room for growth, from power supplies (I would start out with the LPS from LTA) to tubes to internal modifications. 
  
 So, you can get the stock version and be totally happy with it. I was, for a long time. 
  
 But then, if you have some money laying around and want to improve your sound, you can buy a new power supply or some tubes. Repeat, ad nauseam.... 
  
 BTW, I bought mine and used it for a long time solely as a headphone amp. But, because of life changes, I don't listen to headphones as much any more. But I'm enjoying my MZ2 just as much (or more) as a pre-amp. So, it's incredibly flexible. I think of the MZ2 more of a platform than anything else. Its stock configuration is great, but you can play with it and expand it in so many directions. One of my all-time favorite purchases ever. And no, they don't pay me anything. 
  
 Edit: To clarify, the "S" version just has the upgraded power supply, which you can buy at any time later, and some different tubes. You can buy the regular version and then upgrade later if you feel like it. I don't know the extent to which the 12SN7 tubes are harder to find than 6SN7s. I've been able to find lots of good 12AT7s, but not so many 6SN7s....


----------



## hrq12345

mjm6 said:


> Folks,
> 
> I'm looking for a new amp for my phones, and I think the micro ZOTL2 may be a good one to consider, but I have a few questions...
> 
> ...


 
 I used to own both Mjolnir 2 and the MicroZOTL 2. After getting the MZ2 I sold my Mjolnir 2 immediately. Both of them are good and transparent. I also have friend who listened to both and decided to keep the Mjolnir 2, so it might be a personal taste thing. 
  
 What I can tell you is that Mjolnir 2 is a more towards solid state amp while MZ2 is more like a tube amp in some way. Look at the THD and you will know. Usually tube amps have a higher THD. But specs are not the only thing that matter to the sound. I would suggest you listen to both before buying. If you plan to go to speakers in the future then MZ2 should be your choice.


----------



## mjm6

Thanks for the feedback on this...
  
 No speakers for me for this system, so that is not a concern. do tend to like the 'tube sound' but not if it is overly lush and euphonic. I have used tubes in my full size system in the past, but have settled on a tube preamp and solid state amplifier to provide a good blend of both worlds. That's why a hybrid HP amp seems to make sense to me.
  
 However, I do want to turn it up a notch, so I'm thinking I should be looking at a point a bit higher than the Mjolnir, which is why I started reading about this amp, along with a few others, like the Cary and the Pathos, etc.
  
 Any other thoughts or feedback is appreciated.
  
  
 ---Michael


----------



## crazychile

I've owned a MZ2 for a couple of months and it replaced a Lyr 2. The Lyr 2 had a lot of power and was a great amp for the money, but didn't come close to the level of refinement of the MZ2. This is in no way a slam on the Schiit considering the difference in price between the two amps.
  
 I use my MZ2 with the optional LPS. I never heard it with the stock power supply so I can't tell you about how much of an improvement there was between the two. To me the MZ2 doesn't really sound like a tube amp. It's not all lush and gooey. In fact it could probably be confused with a good solid state amp if you didn't know it had tubes. The exception is that you could get tighter bass with solid state but I don't really have any issues with the bass. I use the stock tubes in it for now and think they do just fine. It runs very cool for a tube amp. Actually it runs a lot cooler than a Lyr 2.
  
 I use mine with Fostex TH-X00 and Sennheiser HD-650s. The Fostex are easy to drive and are a great pairing with the MZ2. The amp also sounds geat with the HD-650 but needs a bit more on the volume to make it sing. I'm not very familiar with your headphones, but if they are inefficient you may be near the limits of the amp to bring them to life. Just a touch more power might be nice sometimes with harder to drive headphones.
  
 It's a great amp, but you may find something you like as well for less money. The Torpedo III and Schiit Jotunheim are reportedly great amps that have quite a following. I have heard neither. I'm very happy with the MZ2 and don't really have an itch to try anything else for now, given the headphones I use with it the most often. Given how much this amp is hyped, there are bound to be a few people who buy one and decide it didn't quite live up to their great expectations.  You may be able to find a used one at a reasonable price and save a few dollars


----------



## sling5s

crazychile said:


> I've owned a MZ2 for a couple of months and it replaced a Lyr 2. The Lyr 2 had a lot of power and was a great amp for the money, but didn't come close to the level of refinement of the MZ2. This is in no way a slam on the Schiit considering the difference in price between the two amps.
> 
> I use my MZ2 with the optional LPS. I never heard it with the stock power supply so I can't tell you about how much of an improvement there was between the two. To me the MZ2 doesn't really sound like a tube amp. It's not all lush and gooey. In fact it could probably be confused with a good solid state amp if you didn't know it had tubes. The exception is that you could get tighter bass with solid state but I don't really have any issues with the bass. I use the stock tubes in it for now and think they do just fine. It runs very cool for a tube amp. Actually it runs a lot cooler than a Lyr 2.
> 
> ...


 

 Yes. When I'm listening to Radiohead's (Moon Shaped Pool, Rainbows, Kid A...and so on.... where there's a good balance of robust mid bass and mids and treble) I can easily get lost in the layers and layers of detail rich music, it's sublime and breath taking. I feel like you are immersed in deep layers and layers of musical space.
 However, when I'm listening to something like Journey's Escape (Remastered) which is on the slightly thin, cold and bright side, it can sound a little too harsh and edgy. And this is with the upgraded tubes (I imagine with the stock tubes it would be even more lean and bright). I don't blame the ZOTLS-2 but I think with recordings which tend to be lean, I may prefer something like the Elise Feliks to give it some more rounded tubey warm mids. This is on the HD800 (which is really the problem). With warmer headphones, no such problem exists. My Nhoord and JH13 never sounded better.


----------



## jamato8

sling5s said:


> Yes. When I'm listening to Radiohead's (Moon Shaped Pool, Rainbows, Kid A...and so on.... where there's a good balance of robust mid bass and mids and treble) I can easily get lost in the layers and layers of detail rich music, it's sublime and breath taking. I feel like you are immersed in deep layers and layers of musical space.
> However, when I'm listening to something like Journey's Escape (Remastered) which is on the slightly thin, cold and bright side, it can sound a little too harsh and edgy. And this is with the upgraded tubes (I imagine with the stock tubes it would be even more lean and bright). I don't blame the ZOTLS-2 but I think with recordings which tend to be lean, I may prefer something like the Elise Feliks to give it some more rounded tubey warm mids. This is on the HD800 (which is really the problem). With warmer headphones, no such problem exists. My Nhoord and JH13 never sounded better.


 

 No issues with the Focal Utopia. If music sounds thin, it is the recording, on my setup. I use the Sylvania 6SN7W and 7062 most of the time. I use the Chord Hugo to feed the MZ2.


----------



## staxfreak

I use my MZ2 with LPS + Pangea Powercable, Amperex 7062 + Original Tungsol 6SN7. After 200h burn in never heard so good music !!


----------



## doctorjazz

2 MicroZOTL2S, driving Sadnurni Acoustic Miracle Horn Speakers (with Wolf Audio Red Wolf Server and Veracity Audio Chrysalis DAC), at the NY Audio Show this past Saturday (pardon the bad cell photos), up there with the best sound I heard at the show, no foolin'...


----------



## kendavis

doctorjazz said:


> 2 MicroZOTL2S, driving Sadnurni Acoustic Miracle Horn Speakers (with Wolf Audio Red Wolf Server and Veracity Audio Chrysalis DAC), at the NY Audio Show this past Saturday (pardon the bad cell photos), up there with the best sound I heard at the show, no foolin'...


 
 While those speakers may sound great, I fear that they may have very low SAF (spouse acceptance factor). At least they would in my house.


----------



## doctorjazz

That was my line to my friends at the show...maybe you could sneak them into the house as flower pots, say your taking up the tuba...


----------



## sling5s

I sometimes use my Microzotl2-S as a preamp to my humble 2 channel set up (b&k amp and 705 b&w speakers) with chord mojo as source and they never sounded so good.


----------



## doctorjazz

One of these days I'm going to put the ZOTL into my main rig as a preamp (have to bring it _all the way downstairs, though, oy)!_


----------



## drbluenewmexico

doctorjazz said:


> One of these days I'm going to put the ZOTL into my main rig as a preamp (have to bring it _all the way downstairs, though, oy)!_


 

 oy vey, a serious undertaking! or you could import some head fi dudes to create a massive stereo relocation upgrade for you!!!
 ZOTL2 sure sounds fine as a preamp into my Fostex near field powered speakers, absolutely wonderful!


----------



## zachawry

Not to hijack this thread, but I just got my ZOTL40 power amp yesterday, and it's incredible. That same pristine holographic sound we love from the MZ2 filling the entire room.
  
 Driven by Illuminati-powered MZ2, with Mojo Audio server and DAC. I am now in complete audio heaven. 
  
 Edit: I created a thread for Mojo Audio servers and DACs. I really love these devices (and out of the MZ2/ZOTL40...so nice...), but haven't seen much on Headfi about them. Head here for my impressions or if you have any as well: http://www.head-fi.org/t/825205/mojo-audio-dacs-and-servers


----------



## shigzeo

My review unit will be going back in a few days, but I'm very glad to have had the chance to check it out. I've not released measurements of it, but here are my subjective thoughts: Review: Linear Tube Audio microZOTL2,0 – Bass in the mine


----------



## jamato8

shigzeo said:


> My review unit will be going back in a few days, but I'm very glad to have had the chance to check it out. I've not released measurements of it, but here are my subjective thoughts: Review: Linear Tube Audio microZOTL2,0 – Bass in the mine


 

 And punch the mZ2 with a pair of 6SN7W and 7062 tubes and even higher you go. An excellent, excellent value that many would have had to pay 4 to 5 times as much to get this sound and even then, they may not achieve it.


----------



## staxfreak

jamato8 said:


> And punch the mZ2 with a pair of 6SN7W and 7062 tubes and even higher you go. An excellent, excellent value that many would have had to pay 4 to 5 times as much to get this sound and even then, they may not achieve it.


 
 ... and invest some hundred hours to burn in ...  I found the standard Tungsol 6SN7GTB in combination with the 7062 perfect !


----------



## jamato8

staxfreak said:


> ... and invest some hundred hours to burn in ...  I found the standard Tungsol 6SN7GTB in combination with the 7062 perfect !


 

 I would agree. Time for everything to settle and some inexpensive tube rolling. Either the 12 or 6 volt model allows for this.


----------



## drbluenewmexico

I'm still enjoying my moderately upgraded microZotl2 (by Mojo Audio) with their Joule v5 power supply, quite sufficient
  upgrades for mp3, FLAC and most audio files.  
 However, to be honest, I REALLY miss the extreme upgraded microZotl2 that Ben Z from Mojo let me audition with the new Illuminati power supply. That rig was the closest toVinyl performance I have ever heard with better source files.

  
  I just thought some of you would like to know that Mojo Audio appears to have finally caught up with their Illuminati back orders. From 8 weeks lead time down to 1 week now, and they expect to have inventory on the shelves by the end of the year. 
 They finally posted photos and specifications on their website: 
  
http://www.mojo-audio.com/illuminati-power-supply/
  
 There is even a professional review where Karl Sigman awarded the Illuminati "Star Component" on Audiophilia! 
  
http://www.audiophilia.com/reviews/2016/10/29/mojo-audio-illuminati-power-supply
  
 And Ben's personal extreme upgraded mZ2 and Illuminati that was used in the Audiophilia review is now with wildcatsare1 (Kevin) who will be reviewing it for Headphone List. I hear after Kevin that doctor jazz (Jack) should be receiving

 the upgraded microZOTL2 and Illuminati to review it for Headphone Guru. 
  
 From what I understand Kevin and Jack have both an upgraded microZOTL2 and a plug-and-play power cable that mates with their stock microZOTL2s, and they'll be comparing the Illuminati both on their personal microZOTL2s and on Ben's upgraded one. Kevin is listening to it right now so soon he should have something to report.
  
 Happy Listening and Happy Holidays!


----------



## kikouyou

It would be interesting to get a illuminati vs LTA LPS+ comparison...


----------



## willsw

kikouyou said:


> It would be interesting to get a illuminati vs LTA LPS+ comparison...


 
  
 While we're happy with the LPS+ being a nice upgrade to the standard LTA LPS, the Mojo Audio power supply is an entirely different thing engineered to fulfill its own goals. We used a few higher quality parts and made small changes that would allow us to get a worthwhile improvement without having to get a new case or add any cost except for the individual parts.


----------



## doofalb

kikouyou said:


> It would be interesting to get a illuminati vs LTA LPS+ comparison...


 

 are there any comparisons between the Mojo Joule V5 and the LTA LPS+?


----------



## Clsmooth391

I have a LTA LPS in the classifieds if anyone is interested.


----------



## mourip

Bummer. LTA is building my MZ2 with LPS+ and a ZOTL10 as we speak.
  
 I live near their Washington DC store/shop/factory and have been auditioning the MZ2 in my own home for my speaker system. It is a truly remarkable preamp.


----------



## EdmontonCanuck

clsmooth391 said:


> I have a LTA LPS in the classifieds if anyone is interested.


 
  
 Yeah, I have one too that I need to sell. I'll wait until yours is gone before putting mine up for sale


----------



## kikouyou

Are you guys going for the LPS+ or the Joule/illuminati?
 I have the LPS+ and think it is just fine.


----------



## kikouyou

What are the options for tube rolling on the MZTL2S?


----------



## Clsmooth391

edmontoncanuck said:


> Yeah, I have one too that I need to sell. I'll wait until yours is gone before putting mine up for sale


 
  
 Thank you


----------



## jamato8

kikouyou said:


> Are you guys going for the LPS+ or the Joule/illuminati?
> I have the LPS+ and think it is just fine.


 

 I have the Mojo V and the LPS and think the LPS does a fine job. On tubes, there is a huge number you can try. I think a number of them have been mentioned in pages here.


----------



## kikouyou

jamato8 said:


> I have the Mojo V and the LPS and think the LPS does a fine job. On tubes, there is a huge number you can try. I think a number of them have been mentioned in pages here.


 

 The MZTL2S has a different board and tubes 12V vs 6V if I recall... As the product is not quite old, I guess there has not been a lot of tube rolling on this one.


----------



## zachawry

mourip said:


> Bummer. LTA is building my MZ2 with LPS+ and a ZOTL10 as we speak.
> 
> I live near their Washington DC store/shop/factory and have been auditioning the MZ2 in my own home for my speaker system. It is a truly remarkable preamp.


 

 I'd be curious to hear your impressions of the ZOTL10. I have a ZOTL40 and am ecstatic with it.


----------



## Clsmooth391

kikouyou said:


> Are you guys going for the LPS+ or the Joule/illuminati?
> I have the LPS+ and think it is just fine.


 
  
 Raising funds for the Illuminati.


----------



## kikouyou

clsmooth391 said:


> Raising funds for the Illuminati.


 

 Honestly the LPS+ is very good, not sure the SQ is very different with the Illuminati....


----------



## doofalb

How much of an audible difference is there between the LPS and the LPS+?


----------



## mourip

zachawry said:


> I'd be curious to hear your impressions of the ZOTL10. I have a ZOTL40 and am ecstatic with it.


 
  
 Well lets put it this way. Mark from LTA came by with an MZ2 and a Z10 and I placed an order for both. My current system is/was a custom made 301a DHT tube preamp and a First Watt SIT2.
  
 The MZ2 and Z10 were clearly better although the MZ2 with my SIT2 is excellent also. I should get the new stuff a bit after Christmas. The cool thing is that the LTA amps are so reasonable I can probably break even selling my present gear.
  
 Luckily I already have some 6SN7s and 12SN7s to roll and also a quad of Amperex Holland Minwatt EL84s for the Z10. At 10 watts the Z10 has plenty of power for my Omega Super Alnico speakers which are 99db efficient.
  
 I will report in later and also with some headphone impressions.


----------



## squirrelman

I recently bought a MZ2 on here with the LPS and while it sounds amazing with my LCD-2's that I got from the recent B-Stock sale, I can't really get past about 9-10 o'clock on the volume dial.  I am using a Lampizator Euforia dac into the MZ2, which I was told has an ouput is 3.6V by LampizatorNA.  Does this sound about right volume wise considering the high output from my DAC?


----------



## willsw

squirrelman said:


> I recently bought a MZ2 on here with the LPS and while it sounds amazing with my LCD-2's that I got from the recent B-Stock sale, I can't really get past about 9-10 o'clock on the volume dial.  I am using a Lampizator Euforia dac into the MZ2, which I was told has an ouput is 3.6V by LampizatorNA.  Does this sound about right volume wise considering the high output from my DAC?


 
 Given that 3.6v is quite a bit more than the average 2v for single-ended DAC output, that seems about right compared to where I usually am with Audeze LCD headphones, if I remember correctly. I know that Lampizator can adjust their output voltage if you'd prefer lower.
  
 As a side note, given your DAC and your location, it looks like LTA will have a room at Axpona with Lampizator and Spatial Audio (in addition to a booth in the headphone area).


----------



## Naugrim

So I have enough to get this, but not a new DAC. How will it fair with either a Bifrost Multbit or a Mojo?


----------



## zachawry

naugrim said:


> So I have enough to get this, but not a new DAC. How will it fair with either a Bifrost Multbit or a Mojo?


 

 I ran mine off a Hugo for a long time, and it faired great!


----------



## Clsmooth391

naugrim said:


> So I have enough to get this, but not a new DAC. How will it fair with either a Bifrost Multbit or a Mojo?


 
  
 I used with with the Mojo and it was very good.


----------



## crazychile

naugrim said:


> So I have enough to get this, but not a new DAC. How will it fair with either a Bifrost Multbit or a Mojo?


 
  
 The Bifrost Multibit would be my recommendation in the sub $1k range.


----------



## jamato8

naugrim said:


> So I have enough to get this, but not a new DAC. How will it fair with either a Bifrost Multbit or a Mojo?


 

 I use it with the Hugo, Mojo and the DX80 line out and it sounds great with all of them.


----------



## Naugrim

Thanks for the feedback y'all. I guess I'll be OK with my current DAC selection until I can afford something nicer. Bonus time can't come soon enough!


----------



## sabocat

That's good to know that Omega speakers are a solid match for the ZOTL line. I just recently ordered the MZ2 and a pair of dual-driver omega 3i speakers. I expect arrival early january. I'm curious if the official one watt output will be enough to drive those speakers. I have heard the output may be understated. If not I will use my vintage 6V6 magnavox, modded by Jim Nicholls, as the amp, with the micro running as a pre. Louis at Omega is also expecting the MZ2 soon. He says he sent Michael et al. some of his speakers and the feedback was very positive.


----------



## Naugrim

I've recently read some reviews that say that this Amp doesn't do well with headphones that tend to have hot treble.  I have a TH-900mk2 (definitely has hot treble) and will soon have Noble Encore CIEMs, which from what I understand can be a bit unforgiving as well.  Is this a bad match for my equipment?


----------



## zachawry

naugrim said:


> I've recently read some reviews that say that this Amp doesn't do well with headphones that tend to have hot treble.  I have a TH-900mk2 (definitely has hot treble) and will soon have Noble Encore CIEMs, which from what I understand can be a bit unforgiving as well.  Is this a bad match for my equipment?


 

 It's all a matter of taste, I guess. It can also be modified with tubes. For example, you could get these, which are nice, relatively inexpensive, and have a more laid-back sound signature: 
  
 https://www.tubedepot.com/products/12at7-ecc81-mullard
  
 As for me, I run my MZ2 with my new Noble Katanas, which are even brighter than the Encores, and I love the sound (using more neutral tubes than those Mullards). 
  
 That being said, there is a very slight amount of hiss from the amp when using IEMs. Not present on my Ethers, but I can hear some on my Katanas. It bugs me with some kinds of music, and not with other kinds. But the SQ itself is out of this world.


----------



## Naugrim

zachawry said:


> It's all a matter of taste, I guess. It can also be modified with tubes. For example, you could get these, which are nice, relatively inexpensive, and have a more laid-back sound signature:
> 
> https://www.tubedepot.com/products/12at7-ecc81-mullard
> 
> ...


 
 This hiss doesn't bother me, but yeah, I've been wondering if because I have such low impedence headphones/iems i should be looking for a specific kind of amp.


----------



## zachawry

naugrim said:


> This hiss doesn't bother me, but yeah, I've been wondering if because I have such low impedence headphones/iems i should be looking for a specific kind of amp.


 

 My Ethers are relatively low impedance, I think, and they're fine. And again, the hiss on the IEMs is not super-noticeable unless you are listening to soft music. 
  
 That being said, I'm not sure if this is the amp to buy if you're mainly listening to IEMs.


----------



## willsw

sabocat said:


> That's good to know that Omega speakers are a solid match for the ZOTL line. I just recently ordered the MZ2 and a pair of dual-driver omega 3i speakers. I expect arrival early january. I'm curious if the official one watt output will be enough to drive those speakers. I have heard the output may be understated. If not I will use my vintage 6V6 magnavox, modded by Jim Nicholls, as the amp, with the micro running as a pre. Louis at Omega is also expecting the MZ2 soon. He says he sent Michael et al. some of his speakers and the feedback was very positive.


 
  
 A pair of Omega 3i arrived yesterday, but I only heard them still cold to the touch and just out of their shipping box. They'll have been playing nonstop this weekend and Monday we'll do some proper listening, through just a MicroZOTL2, and then with a ZOTL10 and a ZOTL40, though I don't know the recommended burn in time. 
  


naugrim said:


> I've recently read some reviews that say that this Amp doesn't do well with headphones that tend to have hot treble.  I have a TH-900mk2 (definitely has hot treble) and will soon have Noble Encore CIEMs, which from what I understand can be a bit unforgiving as well.  Is this a bad match for my equipment?


 
  
 The MZ2-S model with its NOS tubes has definitely tamed some of the brightness that the MicroZOTL2 and its current-production tubes could tend towards. Changing to Mullards as Zach recommended–NOS or current production–for the 12AT7 tubes would also be a way to darken the sound slightly if you found it too bright. 
  
 Has anyone tried the new JJ 6SN7?


----------



## sabocat

I have not heard any of the new production 6SN7 tubes,  but I am looking forward to trying a few of my Sylvania and GE 6SN7 tubes in the MZ2.


----------



## crazychile

I have something to say about about running 1 watt of power to speakers. As long as you have zero expectations, use efficient speakers in a small room, nearfield, and you only listen to harpsichord or chamber music, you might be fine. Otherwise forget it.

I lugged the MZ2 over to my buddys house who owns modified Klipsch LaScalas. These are either 101 or 103 db efficient, (cant remember) and we ran a powered pro JBL 18 inch sub with them. The goal wasn't to rock the house, but 1 watt is only a tease....the sound compresses immediately with anything dynamic. So be warned that even with the most efficient speakers, and being just 8 ft away in a smallish room, No. Just no.

It's like having a car that wont do over 1000rpm. It may work enough to roll out of the driveway, but that's about it.


----------



## jamato8

I will have the Illuminati PS to try out later today. I already have the Mojo V. Also I have changed out the wiring in my mZ2 to pure silver, the same wire I have used for years, 99.99995 OFS. Great stuff. And I put in a Goldpoint 10K pot. The wiring is soldered point to point and I got rid of the switch in front, as I don't use it and it is just another connection in the signal path. The nuances of sound come through better but even stock I think the mZ2 is excellent. 
  
 I am using the 18ECC (somewhat like the 7062 or 180ECC but with smooth plates and from the mid 1950's) and the 6SN7W.


----------



## yukihasi

jamato8 said:


> I will have the Illuminati PS to try out later today. I already have the Mojo V. Also I have changed out the wiring in my mZ2 to pure silver, the same wire I have used for years, 99.99995 OFS. Great stuff. And I put in a Goldpoint 10K pot. The wiring is soldered point to point and I got rid of the switch in front, as I don't use it and it is just another connection in the signal path. The nuances of sound come through better but even stock I think the mZ2 is excellent.
> 
> I am using the 18ECC (somewhat like the 7062 or 180ECC but with smooth plates and from the mid 1950's) and the 6SN7W.


 
 Looking forward to your impressions. To me Joule v5 is warmer while illuminati is ultimately transparent exposing more nuance and details. 
 Also I am interested in how are 18ECCs compared to 7062s?


----------



## jamato8

yukihasi said:


> Looking forward to your impressions. To me Joule v5 is warmer while illuminati is ultimately transparent exposing more nuance and details.
> Also I am interested in how are 18ECCs compared to 7062s?


 

 I would say the same thing, The Illuminati is more transparent, the notes hang longer because of the black background and it sounds faster, which would have to do with the delivery of the DC in an unfettered way to the mZ2. Also I note that the timbre with the Illuminati is a little better and the V was already very good. 
  
 Physically, the Illuminati runs much cooler whereas the Mojo V ran hot, which isn't a bad thing in the winter. :^) I did have some mechanical vibration with the Illuminati to my desk but Sorbothane cleared that right up (for anyone that might notice this). This PS does not lack for transformers, which to me, can make or break a good power supply regardless of what is done to the rest of the circuitry. 
  
 So I still need more hours on this Illuminati and while the admission price isn't cheap, people all too often overlook the foundation of sound, the power supply. Just like in tubes, which are a circuit and often buy cheap tubes not realizing, most of the time you get what you pay for though there are exceptions. 
  
 On the 18ECC I need to plug my 7062 back in to do a comparison. In a way I find that my 7062 might be a little more alive sounding but I need to put them back in to fully ascertain this. Also most of my 7062 are microphonic, which I don't mind as long as it isn't too much. 
  
 I also changed all of the wiring in my mZ2 to pure silver, did direct wiring, soldered point to point and installed a 10K Goldpoint pot so the signal path has a nice clean path, oh and I got rid of the switch since I like less rather than more in the signal path.


----------



## WNBC

Resistance will be futile here   I definitely want to try the Illuminati, but the question now for me is just when to upgrade over the LTA LPS.  The price of admission is definitely not cheap as it gets into the territory of whether to upgrade the MZ2 now or wait to do so after other purchases of say headphones or a complement SS amp.  However, it is pretty cool that the MZ2 can be tweaked as DIY'er or Mojo Audio to even higher performance.    
  
 I'm still using the stock tubes in the MZ2-S and they are serving me well, plus I'll need time to research which tubes are worth rolling.  I have faith that LTA has picked out some decent stock tubes that are within 80-90% performance of the higher end tubes.  
  
  
 Quote:


jamato8 said:


> So I still need more hours on this Illuminati and while the admission price isn't cheap, people all too often overlook the foundation of sound, the power supply. Just like in tubes, which are a circuit and often buy cheap tubes not realizing, most of the time you get what you pay for though there are exceptions.


----------



## jamato8

wnbc said:


> I'm still using the stock tubes in the MZ2-S and they are serving me well, plus I'll need time to research which tubes are worth rolling.  I have faith that LTA has picked out some decent stock tubes that are within 80-90% performance of the higher end tubes.


 
 From what I understand the amp you have, has NOS tubes so you should be doing pretty well. Do you know what tubes it is using?


----------



## WNBC

I can pull the amp from the rack later to be 100%, but I'm pretty sure a pair of Sylvania 12AT7WC (I think similar to these http://tctubes.com/Sylvania-JAN-12AT7WC.aspx) and a pair of RCA 12SN7GT (black base).  I'd have to pull the tubes to get more info.  Ha, guess I'm a tube noob because I didn't really take a detailed look at the tubes before starting to use the amp.
  
  
  


jamato8 said:


> From what I understand the amp you have, has NOS tubes so you should be doing pretty well. Do you know what tubes it is using?


----------



## jamato8

wnbc said:


>


 

 Tha is ok, you don't need to pull them. Nice that you got some NOS tubes. The 12 volt version of the 6SN7 is a nice tube.


----------



## saidentary

rgs9200m recently posted a link to a review of the HiFiMAN HE-1000 version 2.
  
Notice the headphone amplifier that was used by the reviewer from The Absolute Sound..................
  

Here's a cut and paste from the end of the article: *Amplifiers:* Linear Tube Audio MicroZOTL2.0 Deluxe, exaSound e22 Mark 2 DAC
  


Spoiler: Note: If that is too small to read, click here



*Amplifiers:* Linear Tube Audio MicroZOTL2.0 Deluxe, exaSound e22 Mark 2 DAC


----------



## doctorjazz

(Stereophile's Herb Reichert also uses the ZOTL add a reference)


----------



## jamato8

And the mZ2 is easy to upgrade, if you want to do it yourself or send it in. With the new wire, a Goldpoint stepped attenuator and the ease of changing power supplies and of course rolling tubes, there is a more adaptable headphone I know of. 
  
 I am trying out the Illuminati ps right now and as it burns in, I do notice the ups and downs with music. Yesterday it was flat after being very open and dynamic. This isn't just my head as I compared it to the Mojo V and changing tubes etc. I am using the Focal Utopia and they reveal just everything that is going on. Today as the PS continues to burn in, the sound is again open and fast. Now waiting for the PS to settle and see how it does for me and my expectations but very promising.


----------



## zachawry

I also recently got a set of anti-vibration rings to put on the tubes. Made a bigger difference than I had expected. 
  
 That's a virtually-free upgrade.


----------



## kendavis

zachawry said:


> I also recently got a set of anti-vibration rings to put on the tubes. Made a bigger difference than I had expected.
> 
> That's a virtually-free upgrade.


 
 Virtually free upgrades are good. I don't quite know what they are or what they look like. Can you provide a link or a pointer to where one might find these?
  
 Thanks,
  
 Ken


----------



## zachawry

kendavis said:


> Virtually free upgrades are good. I don't quite know what they are or what they look like. Can you provide a link or a pointer to where one might find these?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Ken


 

 I got mine from somebody, so I'm not sure the best place to actually buy them, but this gives you the idea: 
  
 http://www.ebay.com/bhp/tube-dampers


----------



## mbyrnes

Subscribed


----------



## kikouyou

What is the scientific explanation behind the tube dampers?


----------



## saidentary

kikouyou said:


> What is the scientific explanation behind the tube dampers?


 

 I don't know. I have _*read*_ that there is minimal vibration which translates into audible microphonics that are deleterious to the sound.  I don't know whether that is true.  There is, however, much anecdotal testimony to that effect.  Not necessarily with the MZ2, but in general.  "Herbie's tube dampers" have been an audiophile staple for a while now.


----------



## skhan007

kikouyou said:


> What is the scientific explanation behind the tube dampers?




 They are used to limit vibrations, which in turn limit microphonics. In guitar amps, for example when the amp is on top of a speaker, the vibrations can cause microphonics. These help to limit vibrations.


----------



## kikouyou

That makes sense for a guitar amp. Not for HP amp there are no induced vibrations by the HP....


----------



## vapman

kikouyou said:


> That makes sense for a guitar amp. Not for HP amp there are no induced vibrations by the HP....


 
 Tubes vibrate more than modern solid state gear, which *still* benefits from proper anti vibration housing.


----------



## zachawry

For example, I had my setup on a wobbly old printer stand. I was worried about it tipping over from the weight of the Illuminati, so I bought a real vibration-dampening audio rack. Not a super-expensive one, but just something sturdy that I wasn't expecting much out of in terms of sound. But, it made a much bigger difference sonically than I was expecting (I feel like I say this a lot). 
  
 This got me on the anti-vibration boat, so I bought some Stillpoints. This was an interesting effect. It was like my system had been slightly out of focus but I didn't realize it. When I put the Stillpoints in, the image popped into focus. Everything was more precise and I could place things in 3D space better. To me this was really interesting. Are there really tiny vibrations that make a difference? Big difference? Probably not. Subtle but key difference? Yep, I now think so.


----------



## jamato8

zachawry said:


> For example, I had my setup on a wobbly old printer stand. I was worried about it tipping over from the weight of the Illuminati, so I bought a real vibration-dampening audio rack. Not a super-expensive one, but just something sturdy that I wasn't expecting much out of in terms of sound. But, it made a much bigger difference sonically than I was expecting (I feel like I say this a lot).
> 
> This got me on the anti-vibration boat, so I bought some Stillpoints. This was an interesting effect. It was like my system had been slightly out of focus but I didn't realize it. When I put the Stillpoints in, the image popped into focus. Everything was more precise and I could place things in 3D space better. To me this was really interesting. Are there really tiny vibrations that make a difference? Big difference? Probably not. Subtle but key difference? Yep, I now think so.


 

 I used to make amp bases for Cary Audio. I always used a type of isolation point as well as my internal proprietary system. They worked well and the bases were well reviewed in Stereophile. Isolation done right works, done wrong, it can add to a muddiness. Sorbothane can work well but also can mess up a system. Also there are specially machined cupped aluminum and special ball bearings. These isolate, dissipate, and decouple. 
  
 I had a bunch made once as a group buy. They work well but not on a headphone amp because of the pulling of the headphone cable. I will have to try them under the Illuminati.


----------



## skhan007

I'm actually going to be checking out the MicroZotl2 in a couple of days. Really looking forward to hearing this amp through some headphones (I'm headphone shopping as well). For you owners, did the MicroZotl2 replace another headphone amp? Also, did you find a set of cans that really paired well with this amp? I'm going to go and read a bunch of the previous posts in the 144 pages of this thread. I know, I'm a slacker for reading them all before posting my questions .
  
 I'm hoping to listen to this vs. the Woo WA7 and the Schiit Lyr2 at the local hi fi shop. I'm pretty excited.


----------



## crazychile

skhan007 said:


> I'm actually going to be checking out the MicroZotl2 in a couple of days. Really looking forward to hearing this amp through some headphones (I'm headphone shopping as well). For you owners, did the MicroZotl2 replace another headphone amp? Also, did you find a set of cans that really paired well with this amp? I'm going to go and read a bunch of the previous posts in the 144 pages of this thread. I know, I'm a slacker for reading them all before posting my questions .
> 
> I'm hoping to listen to this vs. the Woo WA7 and the Schiit Lyr2 at the local hi fi shop. I'm pretty excited.




My Microzotl 2 replaced a Lyr 2. No comparison. But thats not really fair given the price difference.

I use Fostex TH-X00 headphones onthe MZ2. Sounds fantastic but theyre easy to drive. I also use Sennheiser HD-650 and they sound great too, but could use a little more power than the MZ2 can deliver


----------



## Clsmooth391

Just got the Illuminati power supply for my Micro Zotl 2. I'm using it with the PWD dac running 2.02FW and the HE-1000. I also have the Linear Power Supply. 
  
 First let me say that I have tried many high end cables and don't care for many of them. Yes, many show more detail but I feel it comes at a cost of losing musicality e.g thinning out the sound and losing some dynamic range.
  
 I apologize in advance as I'm not good at articulating myself.
  
 I tried the Illuminati after leaving it on for an hour. It had come burned in but not fully and Ben has said it needs many more hours. I was immediately floored. The background became so black with the low noise floor that I could hear a lot more detail and the notes hung longer. The soundstage really opened up but not like I hear with the HD800 where the large soundstage seems a little artificial to me. The dynamic range also increased. The key thing with the Illuminati's sound is that I feel it doesn't take away from the musicality. Someone mentioned it's like taking away a clear glass between you and the music so there's nothing between you. I think that sums up exactly what the Illuminati does. 
  
 The customer service at Mojo Audio has been superb too.


----------



## Juko

Anybody use Micro Zotl with Chord Hugo ? How is it compared to Hugo alone ?
 My setup now is Hugo + Fostex TH900, Would adding MZ2 to the mix make lot of difference ?


----------



## kikouyou

I am using the MZ2S with a Chord Mojo Dac for a LCD4 or HE1000, it makes a big difference as there is much more power out of the MZ2 than the Chord DAC. I was surprised on how better the HE1000 sounded from the MZ2 as it is ok from the Mojo too. The sound was deeper and fuller and the transparency is pretty amazing, it gave a new dimension to the HE1000 I was not expecting. The LCD4 is even more power hungry, but the MZ2 does not clip with higher input from Mojo than nominal line output (not like solid state hey!). Note that before the Mojo I had a Hugo which I loved too, but honestly, I think the Mojo is better, lower noise floor, warmer sound, same amazing capability as the Hugo for bass attack and rendering, same transparency and neutrality for mids and trebles. Very pure. I thinks this combination is very satisfactory and will keep me happy for a while.


----------



## Juko

kikouyou said:


> I am using the MZ2S with a Chord Mojo Dac for a LCD4 or HE1000, it makes a big difference as there is much more power out of the MZ2 than the Chord DAC. I was surprised on how better the HE1000 sounded from the MZ2 as it is ok from the Mojo too. The sound was deeper and fuller and the transparency is pretty amazing, it gave a new dimension to the HE1000 I was not expecting. The LCD4 is even more power hungry, but the MZ2 does not clip with higher input from Mojo than nominal line output (not like solid state hey!). Note that before the Mojo I had a Hugo which I loved too, but honestly, I think the Mojo is better, lower noise floor, warmer sound, same amazing capability as the Hugo for bass attack and rendering, same transparency and neutrality for mids and trebles. Very pure. I thinks this combination is very satisfactory and will keep me happy for a while.




Thanks a lot for this, sounds like MZ2 might be the way to go. Those are exactly things I am looking for.

Has somebody had a chance to compare MZ2 with Eddie Current Zana Deux or Hifiman EF6 ? 
I tried my friends EF6 with some success, but MZ2 could be even better..


----------



## skhan007

I'd be interested to learn how different DACs sound with the MicroZotl2. Sounds like the Chord Mojo is a winner. Curious about the Oppo HA2-SE or the Schiit Bifrost. I hope to try out all of the above soon.


----------



## jamato8

juko said:


> Anybody use Micro Zotl with Chord Hugo ? How is it compared to Hugo alone ?
> My setup now is Hugo + Fostex TH900, Would adding MZ2 to the mix make lot of difference ?


 

 It depends upon the tubes you use. But the mZ2 is more dynamic and 3D. The Hugo does a fine job but the mZ2 does something few amps do. It conveys the music without putting a real signature on it but opens up the vista you are hearing. I am using some 6SN7W and 18ECC tubes. A lot of difference is really up to your expectations, the equipment used besides the mZ2, etc. etc. I use the Focal Utopia most of the time. 
  
 I am listening with the Illuminati and it is as above, a blacker background and transparency increases. The Illuminati is a beast. lol


----------



## Juko

jamato8 said:


> It depends upon the tubes you use. But the mZ2 is more dynamic and 3D. The Hugo does a fine job but the mZ2 does something few amps do. It conveys the music without putting a real signature on it but opens up the vista you are hearing. I am using some 6SN7W and 18ECC tubes. A lot of difference is really up to your expectations, the equipment used besides the mZ2, etc. etc. I use the Focal Utopia most of the time.
> 
> I am listening with the Illuminati and it is as above, a blacker background and transparency increases. The Illuminati is a beast. lol




Is there a bigger soundstage with MZ2 compared to Hugo alone ? This is something I find myself missing from Hugo. Also more body to instruments would be beneficial. More 3D sounds promising.


----------



## jamato8

juko said:


> Is there a bigger soundstage with MZ2 compared to Hugo alone ? This is something I find myself missing from Hugo. Also more body to instruments would be beneficial. More 3D sounds promising.


 

 Depending upon the recording the mZ2 has more body, separation and 3D. I am using the Hugo for the dac, which would limit the mZ2 ultimately but even in this setup, the music benefits from the mZ2. The soundstage is limited by the recording and the Hugo. Ok, I just switched to the line out of my DX80, which should be trounced by the Hugo. The soundstage pushed a little further from me, which is nice. I need to try the DX100 or the line out of the 901s. Unlike some amps, you can immediately tell the difference from different sources. 
  
 The mZ2 does well with the Hugo. A large soundstage and dimensional.


----------



## Juko

jamato8 said:


> Depending upon the recording the mZ2 has more body, separation and 3D. I am using the Hugo for the dac, which would limit the mZ2 ultimately but even in this setup, the music benefits from the mZ2. The soundstage is limited by the recording and the Hugo. Ok, I just switched to the line out of my DX80, which should be trounced by the Hugo. The soundstage pushed a little further from me, which is nice. I need to try the DX100 or the line out of the 901s. Unlike some amps, you can immediately tell the difference from different sources.
> 
> The mZ2 does well with the Hugo. A large soundstage and dimensional.


 
 Thanks for this! Sounds like MZ2 can benefit from an even better dac than Hugo. Which is a good thing on the long term.. And of course there are many ways to further improve the MZ2 with better power sources, tubes and mods.


----------



## jamato8

juko said:


> Thanks for this! Sounds like MZ2 can benefit from an even better dac than Hugo. Which is a good thing on the long term.. And of course there are many ways to further improve the MZ2 with better power sources, tubes and mods.


 

 I have hardwired mine with 99.99995 solid core silver and loose teflon tubing, great tubes, a Goldpoint 10K stepped attenuator and right now I am using the Illuminati. So yes there are many things you can do when starting with an excellent amp.


----------



## skhan007

Speaking from the standpoint of amps I know very well for guitar, I can attest that the solid core silver wire, foil & oil caps, and good filter caps make for one hell of an excellent and responsive amp. That's not even mentioning how a really good set of tubes from the 50s or 60s can help, too. I'm really interested in hear more @jamato8 about how much improvement you've noted with your upgrades and good power supply on your MicroZotl. Sounds like excellent stuff happening in there.


----------



## saidentary

skhan007 said:


> I'm actually going to be checking out the MicroZotl2 in a couple of days. Really looking forward to hearing this amp through some headphones (I'm headphone shopping as well). For you owners, did the MicroZotl2 replace another headphone amp? Also, did you find a set of cans that really paired well with this amp? I'm going to go and read a bunch of the previous posts in the 144 pages of this thread. I know, I'm a slacker for reading them all before posting my questions .
> 
> I'm hoping to listen to this vs. the Woo WA7 and the Schiit Lyr2 at the local hi fi shop. I'm pretty excited.


 
 Both excellent amps in their own right, from what I've read. I've heard neither of them.  I DO own the MZ2 with the stock (switching/original/cheapest) power supply and I STILL think it totally rocks.  Others have agreed and the word has gotten out.  You will have three winners to choose from.  Enjoy the experience, and PLEASE tell us the outcome, whatever you decide.
  
 Oh, and to answer your original question: I was a beta tester for the HE-1000 headphones, and I posted THIS review.


----------



## jamato8

saidentary said:


> Both excellent amps in their own right, from what I've read. I've heard neither of them.  I DO own the MZ2 with the stock (switching/original/cheapest) power supply and I STILL think it totally rocks.  Others have agreed and the word has gotten out.  You will have three winners to choose from.  Enjoy the experience, and PLEASE tell us the outcome, whatever you decide.
> 
> Oh, and to answer your original question: I was a beta tester for the HE-1000 headphones, and I posted THIS review.


 

 I have the Lyr II and it is a good amp but the mZ2 is in a different league. 
  
 The HE1000V2 work great with this amp as do most all the headphones I own. That is the sign of a good amp. You don't have to tailor the headphones to the amp.


----------



## skhan007

I got to spend time with the MircoZotl2 today. This one had the linear power supply and NOS tubes. I'll firmly agree with the above post that it's in a league of its own. The awesome league! I really liked it with just about every combination of DAC that I tried (Oppo HA-2SE, Bimby, and without question, the Chord Mojo). I was A/B testing with Senn HD800 and Audeze EL8 and I liked both a lot, with a bit more preference for the HD800. 
  
@saidentary  -Great review of the HE1000. I wish I could've heard these through the MicroZotl2. I really also liked the Woo WA7 and Schiit Bimbly/Lyr2 set ups I heard today. All were definitely winners. I left the hi-fi shop having taken a lot of notes and will be thinking through all the data I collected. My current thoughts, if I were to make a snap decision based on all the gear I listened to today, might be the Chord Mojo, MicroZotl2, and Senn HD800.


----------



## Clsmooth391

I'm finding the Tung Sol 6SN7GTB a little harsh. I think the Illuminati is exposing these tubes. I'm using a 1950s 18ECC which is like the 7062.
  
 I've ordered the 6N8S from Ben. This meant to be very neutral. I wanted to also try a warmer, more romantic 6SN7 tube and was looking at the RCA Red Base 5962 but looking through this thread, it doesn't seem too popular with the Micro. Has anyone tried it with the Illuminati or can recommend another warmer tube which works well with the Micro?


----------



## skhan007

Since these amps are cathode biased, does it really matter if I used matched triodes or power tubes? I ask because my tube stash may not be matched pairs.


----------



## jamato8

skhan007 said:


> Since these amps are cathode biased, does it really matter if I used matched triodes or power tubes? I ask because my tube stash may not be matched pairs.


 

 No, they don't need to be matched. I still like to get tubes fairly close for a more matched output.


----------



## mourip

jamato8 said:


> No, they don't need to be matched. I still like to get tubes fairly close for a more matched output.


 
  
 This is the answer I got from LTA when I asked the same question. The only reason for matching with these amps is to keep good L/R channel balance if you do not have a way to adjust balance via dual volume controls or a balance pot.
  
 They said that even the power tubes do not need to be matched.
  
 Having said that having tubes come as a balanced set never hurts.


----------



## jamato8

mourip said:


> This is the answer I got from LTA when I asked the same question. The only reason for matching with these amps is to keep good L/R channel balance if you do not have a way to adjust balance via dual volume controls or a balance pot.
> 
> They said that even the power tubes do not need to be matched.
> 
> Having said that having tubes come as a balanced set never hurts.


 

 That's right. You get tubes enough different and one could be slightly louder than the other. That would be more like tubes out of spec but having fairly well matched tubes never hurts but no reason to pay for really close matching. Also as tubes ages, their specs change. If I question what is going on I can check my tubes as I have a few very good calibrated tube testers so I can match my own tubes but I don't have anyway to do a curve trace but again, tubes change so I am fine with checking them on my Hickok 439C.


----------



## skhan007

OK, good to know. I just briefly rummaged through my tube stash and found a couple of pairs of matched JAN Philips 5691's, an old NOS GE 6sn7, and old Sovtek 6sn7gt. I also have literally dozens of various old 12aX7 triodes, but I think those will be too high gain for a hi-fi set up. I have quite a few old KT66 and EL34 tubes, but that won't help me here!


----------



## LeeMark

Really stupid question.  I got some tubes to roll (Sylvania 6SN7 and Gold Lion 12AT7) but I can't get an allen wrench to open the cover.  I sued metric and american sizes and 3 mm and 1/8th inches are too big, 2 mm and 3/32 are too small.  What sizes have people used to open up the cover?


----------



## staxfreak

I only use a little suitable slot screwdriver


----------



## puffmtd

leemark said:


> Really stupid question.  I got some tubes to roll (Sylvania 6SN7 and Gold Lion 12AT7) but I can't get an allen wrench to open the cover.  I sued metric and american sizes and 3 mm and 1/8th inches are too big, 2 mm and 3/32 are too small.  What sizes have people used to open up the cover?


 

 7/64 allen wrench


----------



## LeeMark

Thanks


puffmtd said:


> 7/64 allen wrench


 

 Thanks, All the sets I have don't have that size.  I have to go out and buy it.


----------



## dpump

leemark said:


> Thanks
> 
> Thanks, All the sets I have don't have that size.  I have to go out and buy it.


 
 If you get a T-handle allen wrench it will be much easier to remove and install the screws.


----------



## hrq12345

leemark said:


> Really stupid question.  I got some tubes to roll (Sylvania 6SN7 and Gold Lion 12AT7) but I can't get an allen wrench to open the cover.  I sued metric and american sizes and 3 mm and 1/8th inches are too big, 2 mm and 3/32 are too small.  What sizes have people used to open up the cover?


 

 This one I brought from amazon works fine.


----------



## willsw

If anyone can't be bothered to get the right hex wrench if you don't already have one, we're happy to send an L-key your way. I will say that a T-handle or a screwdriver style like the one linked at Amazon is a much more comfortable method. Just drop us an email.


----------



## dpump

doofalb said:


> How much of an audible difference is there between the LPS and the LPS+?


 
 ​There is a definite improvement going from the LPS TO THE LPS+. For those of you who aren't aware, LTA modified the original LPS by changing the 12-volt regulator to a custom 12-volt regulator they had specially made and it is designated as the LPS+. I had my original LPS converted to the LPS+ a couple of months ago and heard an immediate improvement in clarity with a blacker background. You have to send your LPS to LTA and the charge is $80 including return shipping to you. I'm not sure if all LPS's are now the + model; LTA will have to answer that question. It is a very worthwhile upgrade in my opinion and I would think gets you closer to the much more expensive power supplies that other manufacturers are selling.


----------



## WNBC

Adding to @dpump ...
  
 There might not be many of us who had the MZ2 & LPS and also the MZ2-S (w/ LPS+).  I don't want to make big statements because I've changed DACs.  We're also talking about 8 months time gap between my MZ2 and now MZ2+.  Maybe it's the change in tubes and/or LPS improvements.  With that said, the presentation of the MZ2-S appears to me to have more body to the sound.  This is not to say the MZ2 was lacking anything, but when I had one I often reached for my Liquid Carbon when using the HD800 or Grados.  No biggie, those are bass-lite cans and there is a reason why many of us have more than one amp.  Now with the MZ2-S, I can reach for the HD800/Grados and not even think I might need a bit more punch from the Liquid Carbon.   Bass-lite headphones are a pleasure on the MZ2-S.  Again, MZ2 was far from terrible with bass-lite headphones and tube rolling could really help as well with those bass-lite cans.  On the level of stock form and un-modded, I believe the improvements are there in the MZ2-S.  Definitely worth the extra $150, IMHO.    
  
 Where are all of those MassDroppers enjoying their MZ2-S?


----------



## yukihasi

clsmooth391 said:


> I'm finding the Tung Sol 6SN7GTB a little harsh. I think the Illuminati is exposing these tubes. I'm using a 1950s 18ECC which is like the 7062.
> 
> I've ordered the 6N8S from Ben. This meant to be very neutral. I wanted to also try a warmer, more romantic 6SN7 tube and was looking at the RCA Red Base 5962 but looking through this thread, it doesn't seem too popular with the Micro. Has anyone tried it with the Illuminati or can recommend another warmer tube which works well with the Micro?


 
 My Mullards ECC33/6SN7GTB were really good warm tubes before I did something stupid and damaged them


----------



## LeeMark

dpump said:


> If you get a T-handle allen wrench it will be much easier to remove and install the screws.


 

 Got one, worked great, new tubes are enlightening.  Thx all.


----------



## Clsmooth391

yukihasi said:


> My Mullards ECC33/6SN7GTB were really good warm tubes before I did something stupid and damaged them


 
  
 Did you try these with the Illuminati or did you damage them before you got it?
  
 This thread (http://www.head-fi.org/t/117677/the-reference-6sn7-thread) states:
  
*ECC31, 32, 33, 34* - Popular MISconception: these are *NOT* equivalent to 6SN7. Especially the ECC32/CV181 - close, but the 50% higher current draw will probably fry some transformers. Grid voltage, gain and transconductance are all different for these tubes. Ask your amp manufacturer first before substituting these in.
  
 Did you make sure that it's okay to use the ECC33 in the Micro Zotl? Price is quite steep for these at around $300 for a pair.
  
 I've got the 6N8S hopefully coming tomorrow from Mojo Audio. These have been highly recommended by Ben.


----------



## yukihasi

clsmooth391 said:


> Did you try these with the Illuminati or did you damage them before you got it?
> 
> This thread (http://www.head-fi.org/t/117677/the-reference-6sn7-thread) states:
> 
> ...


 
 Mine has '6SN7GTB' printed on the glass of the tube, and it worked, I had them with Joule V5, broken before I got my illuminati.


----------



## mbyrnes

What would be some decent DACs to use with the MZ2? I recently bought an MZ2 used from another Head-fier, and I am really loving the sound. I'm going to a local meet at the end of the month, and may be able to try a few combos that current owners are running. 

I currently use a Creative Sound Blaster X7 LE, which uses some pretty decent internals. The USB DAC (SB-Axx1 is a multichannel DSP capable of 32 concurrent audio channels at 24 bit, 96 kHz per channel. It has USB asynchronous data transfer protocol, Direct mode bypass (DB-Axx1), for bit perfect digital audio conversion. Uses audiophile grade components like Nichicon fine gold capacitors, swappable OP Amps on the output stage of the DAC. The internal amplifier outputs 1.2W at 32 ohm with a 1 ohm output impedance. It uses the Burr-Brown PCM1794 DAC (24bit, up to 192 KHz). Overall, I'm really happy with it's neutral sound for music, and the ability to simulate surround sound from Dolby Digital sources. I doubt anyone in here has used this as their DAC, but it's ability to do everything is why I bought it. There is an excellent review of the X7 here, written by earfonia. where I grabbed some of the details I wrote above. 

I have recently really submerged myself into the headphone end of the audiophile world, due to my desire to live in Philadelphia. A large surround sound system isn't practical in a small apartment or home here. I still use my Vienna Acoustics Mozart Grands for music listening and general TV usage, but I sold off my Elusive 1099 front stage, which was the most unbelievable speaker set I had ever heard for Movies and Music. Coupled with a PSA 15" ported sub (This sub was INSANE good for the price, and they have gotten better as a company since I bought one). To get as close to this experience as possible, headphones are the only way!


----------



## zachawry

mbyrnes said:


> What would be some decent DACs to use with the MZ2? I recently bought an MZ2 used from another Head-fier, and I am really loving the sound. I'm going to a local meet at the end of the month, and may be able to try a few combos that current owners are running.


 
  
 At the risk of sounding like a fanboy, Mojo Audio's DACs are awesome, and are a very good value. I used to use a Hugo with my MZ2, but tried a Mojo Mystique and never looked back...


----------



## Beammeup

Schiit Bifrost was impressive at its price point. The Sabre DAC in my Burson V2+, however, provided a noticible improvement in resolution, instrument separation and transient attack. The clear winner, in my opinion, is the Gungnir Multi-Bit I recently acquired from a fellow member. The Gumby / MZ2 combo is amazing when played through my HE 1000 phones. Truly an end-game combination IMHO. I am very pleased - primarily ALAC files with some higher rez. YMMV. See your dealer for details. Etc.


----------



## Clsmooth391

yukihasi said:


> Mine has '6SN7GTB' printed on the glass of the tube, and it worked, I had them with Joule V5, broken before I got my illuminati.


 
  
 Really appreciate your input. If the 6N8S doesn't work out, I will look into these.


----------



## mbyrnes

Thanks for the insight guys. The Gumby does seem interesting and used I think I could swing one. Hopefully get to try out a few combos soon to see for myself. I am really happy with what I have, still have to upgrade my OP Amps to Starkos, which get raving reviews all over. The Mojo as well seems very interesting. I gather they are not as popular around here, which is a shame since the owner seems like a mad scientist. Enjoyed his posts on this thread as I was catching up. I'll definitely look into those units and whatever else other owners really like as a combo.


----------



## Clsmooth391

mbyrnes said:


> Thanks for the insight guys. The Gumby does seem interesting and used I think I could swing one. Hopefully get to try out a few combos soon to see for myself. I am really happy with what I have, still have to upgrade my OP Amps to Starkos, which get raving reviews all over. The Mojo as well seems very interesting. I gather they are not as popular around here, which is a shame since the owner seems like a mad scientist. Enjoyed his posts on this thread as I was catching up. I'll definitely look into those units and whatever else other owners really like as a combo.


 
  
 I was using the Mojo and it was very good but then tried the PWD mk2 running FW2.02 and the sound improved a lot. It was more balanced (bass seemed a little overpowering on the Mojo in comparison), more detail and more holographic sound on the PWD.


----------



## mourip

beammeup said:


> Schiit Bifrost was impressive at its price point. The Sabre DAC in my Burson V2+, however, provided a noticible improvement in resolution, instrument separation and transient attack. The clear winner, in my opinion, is the  I recently acquired from a fellow member. The Gumby / MZ2 combo is amazing when played through my HE 1000 phones. Truly an end-game combination IMHO. I am very pleased - primarily ALAC files with some higher rez. YMMV. See your dealer for details. Etc.


 
  
 I am using a Schiit Yggy but would also recommend the Gungnir Multi-Bit for a more budget friendly alternative. I could never go back to a Saber based DAC now...
  
 BTW. I am running KenRad VT-231's in my MZ2 and love them.


----------



## skhan007

mourip said:


> I am using a Schiit Yggy but would also recommend the Gungnir Multi-Bit for a more budget friendly alternative. I could never go back to a Saber based DAC now...
> 
> BTW. I am running KenRad VT-231's in my MZ2 and love them.


 

 Can you elaborate on what you didn't like about Sabre-based DAC's? Just curious, as I've been comparing DACs lately, as I'm shopping.


----------



## WNBC

There are lots of solid DACs around these days so it might not be that the Mojo is out of favor or unpopular.   Many of us do use the MZ2 in a home rig and prefer a desktop, standalone DAC.  I used a Mojo with the MZ2 for many months and loved it.  I was not using the Mojo in a portable set up so I wanted to eventually explore other DACs, but I would not doubt that a $550 the Mojo is a fiscally responsible and more than capable DAC.  Probably it's main competitor at that price is the Schiit Bimby.  
  
 Getting to use a DAC before buying is tough so if you can get to a Head-fi meet that is a good way to be an informed shopper.  A lot of us can't do that so we end up reading reviews and then taking the plunge.  I had the Gumby and I liked it a lot.  Definitely could be one's end game DAC.  But, then there is an itch to try new things and I'm now using a Holo Audio Spring DAC.  To my ears, a better DAC than Gumby, and possibly within your price range if you go for the stock DAC (no mods).  One dealer (Urban Hifi) of the MZ2 offers the Metrum Musette so there might be something to the pairing.  Lots of choices, have fun exploring.  
  
 EDIT:  If using a computer as a source, strongly consider a USB Bridge to get the most out of your future DAC.  Many options from $100 to thousands.  USB has come a long way, but I'm finding USB to SPDIF or I2S bridge to be a better option that makes the listening experience even less "digital" and more analog.
  
  
 Quote:


mbyrnes said:


> Thanks for the insight guys. The Gumby does seem interesting and used I think I could swing one. Hopefully get to try out a few combos soon to see for myself. I am really happy with what I have, still have to upgrade my OP Amps to Starkos, which get raving reviews all over. The Mojo as well seems very interesting. I gather they are not as popular around here, which is a shame since the owner seems like a mad scientist. Enjoyed his posts on this thread as I was catching up. I'll definitely look into those units and whatever else other owners really like as a combo.


----------



## Clsmooth391

Just tried the Russian 6N8S Metal Base tubes (replacing the TS 6SN7GTB). These tubes are so much better. The harshness has gone and the sound is so much more natural. Very happy with them.


----------



## mourip

skhan007 said:


> Can you elaborate on what you didn't like about Sabre-based DAC's? Just curious, as I've been comparing DACs lately, as I'm shopping.


 
  
 This is of course a very subjective thing but I found that they had a lot of detail at the expense of being a bit dry. I had a Twisted Pear Buffalo, a Wyred 4 Sound DAC2 DSD SE, and an Auralic Vega. Of these the Vega sounded the best but having heard the Yggy multibit I was impressed with the naturalness and detail with warmth.


----------



## jamato8

mourip said:


> This is of course a very subjective thing but I found that they had a lot of detail at the expense of being a bit dry. I had a Twisted Pear Buffalo, a Wyred 4 Sound DAC2 DSD SE, and an Auralic Vega. Of these the Vega sounded the best but having heard the Yggy multibit I was impressed with the naturalness and detail with warmth.


 

 The iBasso DX100 is a portable and the first high end dap and it used the 9018 desktop chip. I have always found it to be open, airy and detailed but not dry. I think that the Sabre chips also require good implementation but I can see where it would be easy to have them slightly dry the caps and associated parts weren't balanced for a neutral sound.


----------



## skhan007

Owners: How does the MZ2 stack up against other OTL headphone amps? I'm curious, as I'm relatively new to this topic and want to learn as much as possible. Having heard the MZ2 a couple of times, I really like it a lot. Not sure how it compares. For you owners, did the MZ2 replace another tube amp and if so, which one?


----------



## jamato8

skhan007 said:


> Owners: How does the MZ2 stack up against other OTL headphone amps? I'm curious, as I'm relatively new to this topic and want to learn as much as possible. Having heard the MZ2 a couple of times, I really like it a lot. Not sure how it compares. For you owners, did the MZ2 replace another tube amp and if so, which one?


 

 There really isn't another amp on the market with the same topology as the mZ2. It is neither like a "normal" tube amp or solid state, though, IMO, it has the best qualities of both.


----------



## Naugrim

Is there going to be a MZ2 at CanJam in NYC in February?  Would love to listen before I buy...


----------



## saidentary

skhan007 said:


> Owners: How does the MZ2 stack up against other OTL headphone amps? I'm curious, as I'm relatively new to this topic and want to learn as much as possible. Having heard the MZ2 a couple of times, I really like it a lot. Not sure how it compares. For you owners, did the MZ2 replace another tube amp and if so, which one?


 

 I heard about the _original _MicroZOTL from Duane Randleman, a dealer friend of mine.  It was among three headphone amplifiers that he thought would be worthy of an audition.  When doctorjazz said he'd found a MicroZOTL, I was quite surprised.  I was also quite pleased.   I jumped on it, not wanting to miss out if they were in limited production or something (they weren't and still aren't, but I didn't know that at the time and I didn't want to miss out, plus I wanted to see how the HE-1000s sounded with it for my beta tester review).
  
 In his comment on my HE-1000 review, Ruthieandjohn said this:
"And the micro-ZOTL amp... you heard of it from doctorjazz and just like that were able to buy and receive it?  I looked briefly and it sounded like a bit harder to get in a short time."  
  
 It _would _have been harder to get within such a short time had I not IMMEDIATELY called Linear Tube Audio and insisted they ship me one overnight, at my own expense.  They did.  I've been extremely happy with it.  That doesn't happen very often for me in high end audio.
  
 I posted my extremely measured and nuanced, but subtly positive 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 first impression of the MZ2/HE-1000 pairing here.
  
 The point is this: There's a very good reason that the MicroZOTL and now the MicroZOTL 2 are legendary--they ROCK.


----------



## mbyrnes

One major difference between the MZ2 and a typical OTL, is you can drive almost any headphone you want with the MZ2. With an output impedance of 2 ohms, it will play friendly with any headphone 16 ohm and above. OTL amps struggle to power lower impedance phones, and for me, this leaves a lot of great headphones out of the OTL amp equation. I recently received the TH-X00 Ebony, a 25 ohm headphone, and the pairing with the MZ2 is Godlike to me. It is almost a perfect headphone for my preferences, and the MZ2 is magical with it. If I had bought the Bottlehead Crack w/ Speedball upgrade, I wouldn't be able to use the Ebonies with it. 
  
 I have only had the MZ2 for less than 2 weeks, and I have been sick for most of that time. So far, I am extremely happy with it, and it is going down as one of the magical components that I have ever heard.


----------



## Naugrim

mbyrnes said:


> One major difference between the MZ2 and a typical OTL, is you can drive almost any headphone you want with the MZ2. With an output impedance of 2 ohms, it will play friendly with any headphone 16 ohm and above. OTL amps struggle to power lower impedance phones, and for me, this leaves a lot of great headphones out of the OTL amp equation. I recently received the TH-X00 Ebony, a 25 ohm headphone, and the pairing with the MZ2 is Godlike to me. It is almost a perfect headphone for my preferences, and the MZ2 is magical with it. If I had bought the Bottlehead Crack w/ Speedball upgrade, I wouldn't be able to use the Ebonies with it.
> 
> I have only had the MZ2 for less than 2 weeks, and I have been sick for most of that time. So far, I am extremely happy with it, and it is going down as one of the magical components that I have ever heard.


 
 I have Ether Flows and TH-900s.  Sounds like the TH-900 is going to be just fine then...


----------



## sheldaze

naugrim said:


> Is there going to be a MZ2 at CanJam in NYC in February?  Would love to listen before I buy...


 
 Linear Tube Audio will be there. I'm sure they'll have the MicroZOTL2.


----------



## Naugrim

sheldaze said:


> Linear Tube Audio will be there. I'm sure they'll have the MicroZOTL2.


Awesome! Thanks.


----------



## mourip

Has anyone tried a 7N7(with adapter) to replace the 6/12SN7 in your MZ? I started with an RCA 12SN7 and switched to a Kenrad VT231 which I like a lot. My board is only two weeks old and they now come with a jumper for 6/12 volt use on the ouput tubes.
  
 Has anyone tried a 7062 to replace the 12AT7 on the input. It has lower gain and supposedly is quieter than a 12AT7.


----------



## kikouyou

mourip said:


> Has anyone tried a 7N7(with adapter) to replace the 6/12SN7 in your MZ? I started with an RCA 12SN7 and switched to a Kenrad VT231 which I like a lot. My board is only two weeks old and they now come with a jumper for 6/12 volt use on the ouput tubes.
> 
> Has anyone tried a 7062 to replace the 12AT7 on the input. It has lower gain and supposedly is quieter than a 12AT7.


 

 I got a MZTL2.0S for black friday and there is no jumper on the board. The sound is so good as it is that I am not temped to roll at this point of time...


----------



## mourip

kikouyou said:


> I got a MZTL2.0S for black friday and there is no jumper on the board. The sound is so good as it is that I am not temped to roll at this point of time...


 
  
 I believe that the newer boards are just starting to ship. Glad you like the amp. It is a real bargain...
  
 I understand that a remote control is an option now also. Not so important for HP use but great for preamp use.


----------



## saidentary

kikouyou said:


> .........The sound is so good as it is that I am not temped to roll at this point of time...


 
 I've never been tempted to roll tubes, or do anything else (like upgrade the "bad" [switching] power supply, etc.) for the very same reason--the sound is so good as it is.


----------



## skhan007

saidentary said:


> I heard about the _original _MicroZOTL from Duane Randleman, a dealer friend of mine.  It was among three headphone amplifiers that he thought would be worthy of an audition.  When doctorjazz said he'd found a MicroZOTL, I was quite surprised.  I was also quite pleased.   I jumped on it, not wanting to miss out if they were in limited production or something (they weren't and still aren't, but I didn't know that at the time and I didn't want to miss out, plus I wanted to see how the HE-1000s sounded with it for my beta tester review).
> 
> In his comment on my HE-1000 review, Ruthieandjohn said this:
> "And the micro-ZOTL amp... you heard of it from doctorjazz and just like that were able to buy and receive it?  I looked briefly and it sounded like a bit harder to get in a short time."
> ...


 
 Each time I heard the MZ2, I listened with Sennheizer HD800's. I loved what I heard and would say this is also a good pairing. I ended up buying the HD800s. I don't have really any depth of experience with headphone amps, but heard the MZ2 compared to a few other amps in the hi-fi shop that day (Woo WA7, Schiit Lyr2) and they were all pretty nice. The MZ2 is something I'd like to hear again. Most likely, I'll take my DAC, cans, and my laptop and give it another go.


----------



## doctorjazz

I haven't tried it with the HD800, great combo with the HE-1000, and almost every other can I've used it with.


----------



## jamato8

I haven't tried any headphone I have that doesn't sound good with the mZ2. I am also using the Illuminati and it adds to the purse sound, dynamics and drive. With a Goldpoint attenuator and solid core silver internal wire the amp sings and if the phones are any good, so do they. It would have been more fun the last few days but I have had the stomach flu.


----------



## mourip

jamato8 said:


> I haven't tried any headphone I have that doesn't sound good with the mZ2. I am also using the Illuminati and it adds to the purse sound, dynamics and drive. With a Goldpoint attenuator and solid core silver internal wire the amp sings and if the phones are any good, so do they. It would have been more fun the last few days but I have had the stomach flu.


 
  
 Which Goldpoint Model did you choose and what value? Did you need to change anything for it to fit? Seems a bit tight in that part of the board...
  
 Sorry about the flu. That one is the worst...


----------



## sabocat

Just got my microzotl in the mail yesterday. Sounds great. Much more dynamic than my CJ preamp and a lot more bass. The headphone amp sounds wonderful with either of my favorite cans, the AKG 7xx or the AT R70x.I have the stock version.


----------



## doctorjazz

sabocat said:


> Just got my microzotl in the mail yesterday. Sounds great. Much more dynamic than my CJ preamp and a lot more bass. The headphone amp sounds wonderful with either of my favorite cans, the AKG 7xx or the AT R70x.I have the stock version.




Congratulations, enjoy it! I'm sure you will!


----------



## skhan007

jamato8 said:


> There really isn't another amp on the market with the same topology as the mZ2. It is neither like a "normal" tube amp or solid state, though, IMO, it has the best qualities of both.


 
  
  


mbyrnes said:


> One major difference between the MZ2 and a typical OTL, is you can drive almost any headphone you want with the MZ2. With an output impedance of 2 ohms, it will play friendly with any headphone 16 ohm and above. OTL amps struggle to power lower impedance phones, and for me, this leaves a lot of great headphones out of the OTL amp equation. I recently received the TH-X00 Ebony, a 25 ohm headphone, and the pairing with the MZ2 is Godlike to me. It is almost a perfect headphone for my preferences, and the MZ2 is magical with it. If I had bought the Bottlehead Crack w/ Speedball upgrade, I wouldn't be able to use the Ebonies with it.
> 
> I have only had the MZ2 for less than 2 weeks, and I have been sick for most of that time. So far, I am extremely happy with it, and it is going down as one of the magical components that I have ever heard.


 

 Thanks guys. I'm thinking the MZ2 is at the top of my list now. I'm really fortunate that Urban Hi-Fi is very close and I've heard it a couple of times. As I mentioned, I'm going to make some time and head back with my DAC, HD800's, and laptop and hear how my potential home set up would sound. I know all the owners here are posting glowing reviews and really love the amp. That actually means a lot, knowing that some of you seasoned audiophiles, who have been through some amount of gear, have found this amp to be so noteworthy. The other amp that really has my attention is the Woo Audio WA2, which is also an OTL amp. Please let me know if anybody has any thoughts on this one vs. the MZ2. 
  
 I think that if I go with the MZ2, I'll take my time on the DAC topic. I have an Apogee Duet and it sounds great (but what do I know? I don't have a lot to compare it to), so I don't know what I'm missing and don't know how it compares to other DACs that you guys have mentioned (Holo, Musette, Chord) and I don't know how it compares to R2R and NOS DACs either. I don't even know if my ears will tell a difference! Too many unknowns about the DAC world. Since right now, I'm listening to mostly lossless files on 16/44 and sometimes 24/96, I don't know that some of these super pricey high-end DACs would make those files sound any better?


----------



## sabocat

I have it paired with a JWN amp that currently pushes 8 KT-77 output tubes. The Jim Ncholls amp sounds much more dynamic now.
  
 it's like it ate some vitamins or something.


----------



## mourip

skhan007 said:


> Thanks guys. I'm thinking the MZ2 is at the top of my list now. I'm really fortunate that Urban Hi-Fi is very close and I've heard it a couple of times. As I mentioned, I'm going to make some time and head back with my DAC, HD800's, and laptop and hear how my potential home set up would sound. I know all the owners here are posting glowing reviews and really love the amp. That actually means a lot, knowing that some of you seasoned audiophiles, who have been through some amount of gear, have found this amp to be so noteworthy. The other amp that really has my attention is the Woo Audio WA2, which is also an OTL amp. Please let me know if anybody has any thoughts on this one vs. the MZ2.
> 
> I think that if I go with the MZ2, I'll take my time on the DAC topic. I have an Apogee Duet and it sounds great (but what do I know? I don't have a lot to compare it to), so I don't know what I'm missing and don't know how it compares to other DACs that you guys have mentioned (Holo, Musette, Chord) and I don't know how it compares to R2R and NOS DACs either. I don't even know if my ears will tell a difference! Too many unknowns about the DAC world. Since right now, I'm listening to mostly lossless files on 16/44 and sometimes 24/96, I don't know that some of these super pricey high-end DACs would make those files sound any better?


 
 I had a Woo WA3 at one point and still have a Single Power Extreme, both OTL. The thing that puts the MicroZotl ahead in my opinion is that it uses a unique impedance matching circuit to avoid either a capacitor or a transformer on the output. This gives it wide bandwidth and low output impedance so that it will drive even loudspeakers if they are pretty efficient.
  
 Remember that LTA gives you a couple of weeks to try out the amp so if you have the money and are undecided you might as well give it a try. I live about 8 minutes from them and picked up a MZ2 and a Z10 about three weeks ago. They are great to work with and yes, I am keeping both


----------



## sabocat

Rolled in a few GE 6SN7 GTA tubes from the 50's I had lying around.


----------



## jamato8

mourip said:


> Which Goldpoint Model did you choose and what value? Did you need to change anything for it to fit? Seems a bit tight in that part of the board...
> 
> Sorry about the flu. That one is the worst...


 

 I am using a 10K mini. Arn doesn't make this one any longer. You have to enlarge the hole in the case but the room inside is fine. Any of his attenuators should work. I would go with 10K for better freq. response etc.


----------



## mourip

jamato8 said:


> I am using a 10K mini. Arn doesn't make this one any longer. You have to enlarge the hole in the case but the room inside is fine. Any of his attenuators should work. I would go with 10K for better freq. response etc.


 
  
 Thanks. Much appreciated.


----------



## zachawry

Sonic heaven....


----------



## skhan007

zachawry said:


> Sonic heaven....


 
 Cool photo. If you add a woman in a red dress lying on the bed, you'd have a nice Viagra commercial.


----------



## sabocat

For the record, I'm liking the stock tungsol 12at7 tubes better than the mullards.


----------



## mourip

zachawry said:


> Sonic heaven....


 
  
 What kind of feet are those? Stock or after-market?
  
 If after-market do you hear an inprovement?


----------



## hrq12345

mourip said:


> What kind of feet are those? Stock or after-market?
> 
> If after-market do you hear an inprovement?


 
 I believe these are after market. Mine has the stock ones, which are black. LTA renewed some parts of the MZOTL2 some time late last year.


----------



## jamato8

sabocat said:


> For the record, I'm liking the stock tungsol 12at7 tubes better than the mullards.


 

 The Mullards might be too warm. Is that what you are hearing and less detail?


----------



## sabocat

Perhaps a bit on the warm side. I just like the clarity and detail of the tungsol. Maybe the mullard reminds me too much of my CJ pre, since it uses the M8080 tubes.


----------



## jamato8

sabocat said:


> Perhaps a bit on the warm side. I just like the clarity and detail of the tungsol. Maybe the mullard reminds me too much of my CJ pre, since it uses the M8080 tubes.


 

 I don't like a warm sound. Just a little natural warm but the mushy warmth that some like ruins music for me, even when live. I had a friend who raved about his system. Mine, all tube, was what I consider neutral, revealing and very layered. This is on a speaker system. He came over and wasn't impressed. I went over and listened to his system. Warm, mushy, I couldn't tell where anything was, it was just a wall of sound.


----------



## mbyrnes

jamato8 said:


> I don't like a warm sound. Just a little natural warm but the mushy warmth that some like ruins music for me, even when live. I had a friend who raved about his system. Mine, all tube, was what I consider neutral, revealing and very layered. This is on a speaker system. He came over and wasn't impressed. I went over and listened to his system. Warm, mushy, I couldn't tell where anything was, it was just a wall of sound.




So are you running all stock tubes?


----------



## jamato8

mbyrnes said:


> So are you running all stock tubes?


 

 I haven't run stock tubes for a long time. I use the 6SN7W and a 18ECC from the 1950's (it preceded the 7062 and is a little different, smooth plate, no ribs and really nice open and dynamic). I am also using the Illuminati power supply that needs a crazy amount of time to burn in but the noise floor with it is even lower, dynamic and transient speed are excellent.


----------



## mbyrnes

jamato8 said:


> I haven't run stock tubes for a long time. I use the 6SN7W and a 18ECC from the 1950's (it preceded the 7062 and is a little different, smooth plate, no ribs and really nice open and dynamic). I am also using the Illuminati power supply that needs a crazy amount of time to burn in but the noise floor with it is even lower, dynamic and transient speed are excellent.




I have to open mine and see what is running. They aren't stock, but I bought from another member. 

I'm heading to a meet this Saturday, and I'm thinking to run it stock for that event. Dr Jazz is bringing his MZ2 as well, if he attends.


----------



## doctorjazz

Hoping to be there, that's the plan, have changed tubes as well, but, as I mentioned on the thread dedicated to the meet, the current stock tubes aren't the same as when I bought mine when the ZOTL2 first came out. Replacing the upgraded tubes I have with the old stock really won't help someone know what the current model with the current tubes sounds like. Bringing the LTA LPS (first model), Illuminati, and the switching power supply (maybe, if I can turn it up). 
Should be fun!


----------



## jamato8

I don't think it matters what tubes you use regarding the stock ones as they are also using NOS now and those vary. The idea is get the best tubes or the ones you like the sound of and that will tell you what the mZ2 will sound like with those tube but but even tubes of the same year can vary in sound.


----------



## saidentary

doctorjazz said:


> Hoping to be there, that's the plan, have changed tubes as well, but, as I mentioned on the thread dedicated to the meet, the current stock tubes aren't the same as when I bought mine when the ZOTL2 first came out. Replacing the upgraded tubes I have with the old stock really won't help someone know what the current model with the current tubes sounds like. Bringing the LTA LPS (first model), Illuminati, and the switching power supply (maybe, if I can turn it up).
> Should be fun!


 

 Any chance of seeing you at the Chicago headphone meet on January 28th?


----------



## doctorjazz

saidentary said:


> doctorjazz said:
> 
> 
> > Hoping to be there, that's the plan, have changed tubes as well, but, as I mentioned on the thread dedicated to the meet, the current stock tubes aren't the same as when I bought mine when the ZOTL2 first came out. Replacing the upgraded tubes I have with the old stock really won't help someone know what the current model with the current tubes sounds like. Bringing the LTA LPS (first model), Illuminati, and the switching power supply (maybe, if I can turn it up).
> ...




The Philadelphia meet is on the 29th, NYC Camjam is Saturday and Sunday of the next weekend, I'd say, even if it didn't involve major travel, I'm in for all the headphone audio I can stand over the next few weeks (and shlepping to Philadelphia is not horrible, but more than that would be fairly major). Would be fun, though, get out and see some of the middle America headphone addicts. Another time, perhaps (you could check out CamJam...).


----------



## saidentary

doctorjazz said:


> The Philadelphia meet is on the 29th, NYC Camjam is Saturday and Sunday of the next weekend, I'd say, even if it didn't involve major travel, I'm in for all the headphone audio I can stand over the next few weeks (and shlepping to Philadelphia is not horrible, but more than that would be fairly major). Would be fun, though, get out and see some of the middle America headphone addicts. Another time, perhaps (you could check out CamJam...).


 

 Some day I wish to meet you and fellow head-fi legend jamato8.  On my bucket list.


----------



## zachawry

mourip said:


> What kind of feet are those? Stock or after-market?
> 
> If after-market do you hear an inprovement?


 

 Yeah, Stillpoints. 
  
 Pricey but nice.


----------



## carlmemory

I have a friend spending about another 2k on microzotl mods....i think it's done by mojo audio.


----------



## mourip

There are two MZ2 models now. The entry level one uses reissue Gold Lion tubes. While these might be the best of the current production replicas the ones that came in my new Z10 were nothing to write home about. They sounded like someone put a blanket over my speakers compared to the equipment that they replaced. To be fair LTA does some burn-in before sending out their equipment but I think that the way these tubes are run really extends the obligatory burn-in time...a lot. I have also found that once turned on the MZ2 and Z10 take much longer to sound their best for a given listening session than other tube equipment I have owned. Most tube equipment opens up after 20 minutes or so and then really shines after an hour. My ZOTL stuff takes a lot longer. The fact that they run their tubes at easy specs is a big plus here for longevity since I now turn on my equipment and play background music for about an hour before sitting down for a real listen. Just to be clear however it is worth the wait.
  
 The MZ2-S which I bought comes with NOS tubes. I opted to uses my own 12SN7's and they provided a pair of NOS 6201's(12AT7). The newest MZ2 boards support both 6 and 12 volts for the output tubes set by a jumper. My Z10 came with all reissue Gold Lions. This is where the blanket came in. I replaced the output EL84's with a quad of Amperex Holland that I already had left over from trying a Leben 300 for a few months. I replaced the reissue GL 12AT7's with a pair of NOS 6201's that LTA provided and the GL 12AU7's with some NOS 12AU7's. Now the sound really improved. Much more clear and dynamic.
  
 Soon I tried a bit more tube rolling I replaced all the 12AT7's with the tall NOS 7026's and in the MZ2 replaced the 12SN7's with a pair of NOS Kenrad VT231's that I already had. This moved the sound from really great to magical. Wonderful clarity and remarkable bass authority.
  
 I would say remove the Gold Lion's as fast as you can afford and go NOS. The LTA equipment is remarkable and absolutely improves with rolling.


----------



## jamato8

You can also use the stock tubes to burn in the mZ2.


----------



## sabocat

I got the basic version with the "bad" power supply. It came with new issue tungsols. I have a pair of sylvania 6SN7 gtb chrome domes in there presently, along with the tungsol 12AT7's. I like this combo.


----------



## willsw

sabocat said:


> I got the basic version with the "bad" power supply. It came with new issue tungsols. I have a pair of sylvania 6SN7 gtb chrome domes in there presently, along with the tungsol 12AT7's. I like this combo.


 
  
 The "bad" power supply is exactly the same as the one David Berning used in the first Micro-ZOTL. I prefer to call it the "original" model. 
  
 Also, as of now, though I think it's only reflected on lineartubeaudio.com, the MicroZOTL lineup has been changed to simply be the "MZ2" (without the linear power supply) and the "MZ2-S" (with the linear power supply). Both models offer options of current production or NOS tubes, 2 or 3 inputs, and remote volume control. This was made possible by adding a jumper to the board, so that you can manually switch between using 12SN7 and 6SN7 tubes. We're also saying goodbye to red screws and red power buttons and locking headphone jacks and blue faceplates. A lot has changed since we started making the $1100 original model and we've absorbed a lot of costs, which is a habit we have that's nice for our customers but not really great for the longevity of the company. So, unfortunately, though it's definitely worth it and still underpriced (all things considered), the base MZ2 will now be $1200. 
  
 Spent a couple hours with David last night. Discussed some very interesting things. Also taking a little business trip later this week to discuss other very interesting things. Also should be receiving a package with an interesting thing later this week. And "interesting things" is as much as I'll tease for now.


----------



## jamato8

willsw said:


> The "bad" power supply is exactly the same as the one David Berning used in the first Micro-ZOTL. I prefer to call it the "original" model.
> 
> Also, as of now, though I think it's only reflected on lineartubeaudio.com, the MicroZOTL lineup has been changed to simply be the "MZ2" (without the linear power supply) and the "MZ2-S" (with the linear power supply). Both models offer options of current production or NOS tubes, 2 or 3 inputs, and remote volume control. This was made possible by adding a jumper to the board, so that you can manually switch between using 12SN7 and 6SN7 tubes. We're also saying goodbye to red screws and red power buttons and locking headphone jacks and blue faceplates. A lot has changed since we started making the $1100 original model and we've absorbed a lot of costs, which is a habit we have that's nice for our customers but not really great for the longevity of the company. So, unfortunately, though it's definitely worth it and still underpriced (all things considered), the base MZ2 will now be $1200.
> 
> Spent a couple hours with David last night. Discussed some very interesting things. Also taking a little business trip later this week to discuss other very interesting things. Also should be receiving a package with an interesting thing later this week. And "interesting things" is as much as I'll tease for now.


 

 Well, this is interesting. :^)


----------



## doctorjazz

Yup, very curious what's new and exciting in ZOTL land!


----------



## hrq12345

I am interested in whether there's a upgrade program for our old users...


----------



## mourip

hrq12345 said:


> I am interested in whether there's a upgrade program for our old users...


 
  
 Hip replacement? Pacemaker?


----------



## mbyrnes

OK so I am BRAND new to tubes. Does anyone have a link of a source that could maybe tell me how to identify tubes, maybe a general write up on how they sound, etc? There is a ton of info and any help at all with finding good sources for info instead of having to go through hundreds of links that may not have the info I am looking for. Is the only way to know most info only on the box? A handy link or two would be great for reference.
  
 When I bought my MZ2, it came with a bunch of extra tubes. I have Telefunken, Mullard, Tung-Sol, and Genelex Gold Lions for the 12AT7/ECC81 size. I also have the Tung-Sol 6SN7 along with 2 different sets of GE 6SN7. I'll add a picture of them, and on the GE there are hand written stickers that have 3 sets of numbers, that I imagine have some important meaning. 
  
 A set of the GE 6SN7 and the Telefunken ECC81 were what was installed with the MZ2 when I received it. I am going back to Tung-Sol to see what this thing sounded like stock, since I have never heard it that way.


----------



## mbyrnes




----------



## mbyrnes




----------



## doctorjazz

Sounds like you are set to play around for a bit with what you have...


----------



## mourip

Start here to make yourself crazy with opinions regarding 6SN7...
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/117677/the-reference-6sn7-thread
  
 Here is a good site for buying tubes but also getting info about them.
  
 http://www.audiotubes.com/6sn7.htm
  
 BTW. You are already off to a good start.


----------



## mourip

mbyrnes said:


> [attach]1803484[/attach]
> [/quote]
> 
> Those numbers document readings from a tube tester. They represent strenght or tube life and also give you an idea if the two half of the tubes are well matched.


----------



## mourip

mbyrnes said:


>


 
  
 Those are terrible tubes you should send them to me immediately!
  
 Just kidding. Telefunken can be the best available. Mullard too if you like it's particular sound signature.


----------



## mbyrnes

Excellent everyone! I've seen the names in this thread and others, finally went through what I have and was surprised at what was literally a throw in if I paid for shipping. 

Now that I know what I own, I can research these some and of course, tube roll! Thank you for all the help. It is really appreciated so much. I'm loving this amp and want to continue to understand tube technology as best I can.


----------



## doctorjazz

When you understand tube technology, be sure to educate me, I'm convinced it's all Voodoo!


----------



## jamato8

mbyrnes said:


> Excellent everyone! I've seen the names in this thread and others, finally went through what I have and was surprised at what was literally a throw in if I paid for shipping.
> 
> Now that I know what I own, I can research these some and of course, tube roll! Thank you for all the help. It is really appreciated so much. I'm loving this amp and want to continue to understand tube technology as best I can.


 
 My favorite combination is the Sylvania 6SN7W black bass (metal bass are too expensive and slightly better but not enough) and the 7062 in place of the 12AT7. You have a couple of nice 12AT7 tubes there. Also know that even if a tube tests great or new, if not new, new old stock (NOS), it may not represent the true sound of the tube. There is no way to know how a tube was used. It can still test new but even testing tubes in an emissions type of tester, vs the much better mutual conductance test or a few others, can put odd voltages and stresses on a tube. The old testers used in drug stores and cheaper tube testers were emissions type of testers. The tube being a circuit is so very important and because of the vacuum used, metallurgy and skill in assembling the tube, which was best in the 1940 and 1950's and started fading in the 1960, all determine how a tube will sound even though all 6SN7, etc., have to meet certain electrical criteria.


----------



## mbyrnes

jamato8 said:


> My favorite combination is the Sylvania 6SN7W black bass (metal bass are too expensive and slightly better but not enough) and the 7062 in place of the 12AT7. You have a couple of nice 12AT7 tubes there. Also know that even if a tube tests great or new, if not new, new old stock (NOS), it may not represent the true sound of the tube. There is no way to know how a tube was used. It can still test new but even testing tubes in an emissions type of tester, vs the much better mutual conductance test or a few others, can put odd voltages and stresses on a tube. The old testers used in drug stores and cheaper tube testers were emissions type of testers. The tube being a circuit is so very important and because of the vacuum used, metallurgy and skill in assembling the tube, which was best in the 1940 and 1950's and started fading in the 1960, all determine how a tube will sound even though all 6SN7, etc., have to meet certain electrical criteria.




I imagine there is a good amount of variation within model lines, years, etc. Probably only way to really know is order and try them out. 

The one website that was linked offers a good idea of what you're buying. I'm also guessing just reading more will help my basic understanding. I'm very happy with the sound, so no hurry to rush into tube buying. But I still want to know what to buy and what's a fair price.


----------



## jamato8

mbyrnes said:


> I imagine there is a good amount of variation within model lines, years, etc. Probably only way to really know is order and try them out.
> 
> The one website that was linked offers a good idea of what you're buying. I'm also guessing just reading more will help my basic understanding. I'm very happy with the sound, so no hurry to rush into tube buying. But I still want to know what to buy and what's a fair price.


 

 It is easy to get ripped off on price until you know the market so always good to ask but yet, reading, reading and reading is what is needed and will get you most of the way there.


----------



## sabocat

7062 is sort of generic.Do you have specific brands and years for recommendation?


----------



## jamato8

sabocat said:


> 7062 is sort of generic.Do you have specific brands and years for recommendation?


 

 Most all of the 7062 were made by Philips. I have many and the internal construction, mica are all the same.


----------



## bmichels

doctorjazz said:


> Yup, very curious what's new and exciting in ZOTL land!


 
  
 A *battery operated *transportable *version of the MICROZOTL2 *? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





    a WA8's competitor to carry along with our DAPs ...


----------



## kikouyou

bmichels said:


> A *battery operated *transportable *version of the MICROZOTL2 *?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Sounds very interesting indeed


----------



## doctorjazz

If it can bring me a beer and scratch my back, I'll trade in my early ZOTL2 (serial number 0002).


----------



## mbyrnes

doctorjazz said:


> If it can bring me a beer and scratch my back, I'll trade in my early ZOTL2 (serial number 0002).




Trade it in? It belongs in a museum! See you tomorrow, going to be a great day!


----------



## jamato8

mbyrnes said:


> Trade it in? It belongs in a museum! See you tomorrow, going to be a great day!


 

 I have no number on mine. I think I will put 007.


----------



## doctorjazz

jamato8 said:


> mbyrnes said:
> 
> 
> > Trade it in? It belongs in a museum! See you tomorrow, going to be a great day!
> ...




Must mean you like your ZOTL shaken, not stirred...:rolleyes:


----------



## jamato8

A little of both.


----------



## skhan007

jamato8 said:


> I have no number on mine. I think I will put 007.


 
 Nope. I have dibs on 007. It's in my screen name.


----------



## jamato8

skhan007 said:


> Nope. I have dibs on 007. It's in my screen name.


 

 But is it the SN of your mZ2?


----------



## skhan007

jamato8 said:


> But is it the SN of your mZ2?


 
 Well, you've got me on that one!


----------



## saidentary

jamato8 said:


> I have no number on mine. I think I will put 007.


 
  
  


skhan007 said:


> Nope. I have dibs on 007. It's in my screen name.


 
  
  


jamato8 said:


> But is it the SN of your mZ2?


 
  
  


skhan007 said:


> Well, you've got me on that one!


 

 FTW: The serial number on _*my*_ unit is as follows: *0007*
  
 I can send a picture from my cell phone to verify, if necessary.


----------



## skhan007

saidentary said:


> FTW: The serial number on _*my*_ unit is as follows: *0007*
> 
> I can send a picture from my cell phone to verify, if necessary.


----------



## doctorjazz

@saidentary:
Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to check on all those Russian Ties I've been hearing about with the ZOTL folks, did Berning really accept Russian money to bring another tube amp into the US? You must disavow any knowledge of this if you're apprehended, of course...


----------



## jamato8

saidentary said:


> FTW: The serial number on _*my*_ unit is as follows: *0007*
> 
> I can send a picture from my cell phone to verify, if necessary.


 

 Ah, too bad you didn't get *007* like mine.


----------



## saidentary

jamato8 said:


> Ah, too bad you didn't get *007* like mine.


 

 Hey, hey, HEY! Don't crush my dreams, dammit!


----------



## saidentary

doctorjazz said:


> @saidentary:
> Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to check on all those Russian Ties I've been hearing about with the ZOTL folks, did Berning really accept Russian money to bring another tube amp into the US? You must disavow any knowledge of this if you're apprehended, of course...


 

 I will _*consider *_accepting the mission.  No promises......  Also, I had no idea the ZOTL folks were purchasing Russian neckties.  Do the Russians also have matching shirts available?


----------



## jamato8

saidentary said:


> Hey, hey, HEY! Don't crush my dreams, dammit!


 

 Sorry. I was out of line. I imposter not. After all, though 007 announces, he doesn't always. :^)


----------



## jamato8

saidentary said:


> I will _*consider *_accepting the mission.  No promises......  Also, I had no idea the ZOTL folks were purchasing Russian neckties.  Do the Russians also have matching shirts available?


 

 When you find out, it will be too late.


----------



## willsw

bmichels said:


> A *battery operated *transportable *version of the MICROZOTL2 *?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Grab one of these and some big rubber bands and you're transportable! Everyone knows our tube sockets don't let tubes go easily, so no worries. You're a DAP and one shoulder strap hooked through the side vents away from rocking any number of unwieldy headphones while walking down the street. Berning intended the original to be battery powered as a useful option.


----------



## mourip

willsw said:


> Grab one of these and some big rubber bands and you're transportable! Everyone knows our tube sockets don't let tubes go easily, so no worries. You're a DAP and one shoulder strap hooked through the side vents away from rocking any number of unwieldy headphones while walking down the street. Berning intended the original to be battery powered as a useful option.


 
  
 Hmmm. A couple hundred volts on a rainy day. What could go wrong?


----------



## mourip

I have been listening to my MZ2-S and my Z10 in my speaker system for a month now and it has become spectacular. The big improvements have been by going NOS on the tubes.
  
 Recently I really got lucky however. I sold my previous 301A tube preamp and part of the deal was that I got 4 pairs of tubes:
  
 Tungsol 12SN7 black glass round plates
 Telefunken 12AU7/ECC82 smooth plates
 Kenrad VT-231 clear glass
 Daystrom 12AT7 ... made in Germany, not sure who would have actually made these.
  
 Let the rolling begin...


----------



## myphone

Question about 5692 tubes: does any one know the operating plate voltage of 6SN7 in microzOTL2? 5692's operating voltage is 275 volts, and regular 6SN7s are 300-450 volts.


----------



## mourip

myphone said:


> Question about 5692 tubes: does any one know the operating plate voltage of 6SN7 in microzOTL2? 5692's operating voltage is 275 volts, and regular 6SN7s are 300-450 volts.


 
  
 Try PM'ing WILLSW as he is one of the principals of Linear Tube Audio and very helpful.


----------



## myphone

Thank you.


----------



## jamato8

willsw said:


> Grab one of these and some big rubber bands and you're transportable! Everyone knows our tube sockets don't let tubes go easily, so no worries. You're a DAP and one shoulder strap hooked through the side vents away from rocking any number of unwieldy headphones while walking down the street. Berning intended the original to be battery powered as a useful option.


 

 I have tried a couple of battery sources and it works but not to the sound quality of a good PS from the mains. A decrease in dynamics and soundstage but it is very usable and a good shoulder strap or backpack and you are set for a hike or roaming the streets in bliss. . . . 
  
 On a power supply for the mZ2, I am finding that the Illuminati needs a huge amount of time to burn in. Up and down, open, not so open etc but once it has burned in, the dynamics are excellent and the overall presentation of sound is superb. Start with an excellent foundation, which is what you need in a power supply and everything else will work if the rest is also designed well but have a poor power supply and nothing else will matter. The stock power supply is extremely good. The Illuminati, at a price, does take it up a notch.


----------



## sabocat

Apparently I got one of the last basic units made, with the 6SN7 tubes and the standard power supply. Fortunately I have on hand some slightly used GE and Sylvanias that sound very good. I did not have any 12AT7's at all, but they are not so pricey. Just received a pair of NOS GE 6201s from Canada and installed them last night. so far so good. They are dead quiet, hardly any hiss at all. They sound like rich cousins to the Mullards in the midrange but the highs are more extended, and the soundstage is more expansive. I'm breaking in the MZ2 in  my bedroom along with a new pair of Omega speakers. Great combo with my JWN 6V6 amp. I had to lose the DAC from the system due to feedback issues, which is sort of a drag, but i will switch in a CD player instead. Right now it's vinyl only.


----------



## sabocat

I've been doing a bit of tube rolling and so far the best combo for my system is the Sylvania 6SN7 GTB with the orange label Amperex 6201, probably a rebranded GE.  The JAN GE 6201 is second. The green label Sylvania 6201 sounds a bit thin to my ears, but maybe it will sound really good with the big amp and the Dali speakers. I have 2 pairs of GE 6SN7 GTA's, one labelled as such and the other a rebranded westinghouse label. They sound almost as good as the sylvanias.


----------



## doctorjazz

I could be in the market for new 6SN7's, a pair just burned out. Recommendations are appreciated. (have a replacement, but it makes me nervous-it flares when I turn the amp on. Seems to just last for a few seconds, then behaves fine as long as it's on).


----------



## dpump

doctorjazz said:


> I could be in the market for new 6SN7's, a pair just burned out. Recommendations are appreciated. (have a replacement, but it makes me nervous-it flares when I turn the amp on. Seems to just last for a few seconds, then behaves fine as long as it's on).


 

 ​I remember reading years ago that David Berning, when asked about 6SN7 tubes for the original MicroZOTL, said that the 6SN7GTB was the safest choice. He said the reason for that was the GTB version has a higher voltage rating than the GT or GTA. However, he also stated that although he recommended the GTB, he hadn't heard of a problem with people using the GT or GTA. I believe the GTB has a slower warm up time which might help the tube last longer.
  
 I have used GT and GTB in my original MZ (which I sold years ago) and my MZ2. I did have a problem with one GT in the MZ2 where it would develop weird noises after the amp had been on for a while. If I turned the amp off and let the tube cool, it would work again until it heated up. Testing the tube on a tube tester didn't show any problems with the tube. Never had a problem using GT's in the original MZ.
  
 doctorjazz, I would be worried if your 6SN7's really burned out, like maybe the heaters quit working? That would indicate you have too much voltage on the heater pins. Or maybe too much voltage on some other part of the tube. I have had small European signal tubes such as 12AX7 or 6DJ8 that flared on turn on and that can be considered normal for these tubes. Not sure a 6SN7should be flaring on turn on. Maybe Urban Audio can comment on this situation.


----------



## skhan007

What's the B+ voltage on plates for the MZ2? Curious if your tubes are within spec. Doesn't sound like they're arcing from your description.


----------



## willsw

skhan007 said:


> What's the B+ voltage on plates for the MZ2? Curious if your tubes are within spec. Doesn't sound like they're arcing from your description.


 
 I believe it's 450 on the 6SN7s. I'm not very good at reading schematics, though.


----------



## jamato8

doctorjazz said:


> I could be in the market for new 6SN7's, a pair just burned out. Recommendations are appreciated. (have a replacement, but it makes me nervous-it flares when I turn the amp on. Seems to just last for a few seconds, then behaves fine as long as it's on).


 

 What brand of tube? I have seen small signal tubes do the base flare, which is normal for a couple of brands and kind of cool but I have seen the 6SN7 family do it, from what I recall. What is interesting is on the small signal tubes no one has come up with a concrete reason why they designed them this way. I have read some stuff from some of the most knowledgable people I know and they don't know for sure. A real mystery. I even had a friend who designed and held patents, in conjunction with, RCA. Talk about someone who knew tubes and circuits upside down and backwards. It was reading to him. It was fun because we could just talk circuits like a language, well it is one but to talk it and see it in your head is cool.


----------



## mourip

I have been breaking in a pair of Tungsol 12SN7 black glass round plates. These are turning out to be very fine tubes and cost a lot less than the 6SN7/VT-231 TSRPs or the Kenrad VT-231s.
  
 A good choice if you have one of the newer MZ2's with the 12 volt option.


----------



## sabocat

An even cheaper choice is new production EH.



*NEW STOCK – Electro-Harmonix EH6SN7* *[PHOTO HERE]*
_[black plates, black base, black labels on glass, top getter]_
 ● “The Electro Harmonix were the most dynamic in the MPX3 . The Bass is also the best and biggest of the three; quite detailed and tight. Midrange is also full of detail air and transparency up and down the range. Gets a little too bright in my system at times, but generally the most fun and involving tubes to listen to so far for me.” –bobjew
 ● “With the Electro Harmonix 6SN7's in current production, there is no need to suffer.” –Hirsch
 ● “They are fast-paced tubes with a bit of a heavy bass and paired with a slower driver tube the combo sounds quite nice.” –donovansmith
 ● “I came across a new 6SN7 tube by Electro-Harmonix and it sounds great. This tube seems to be a very good copy of the Sylvania VT231.It has killer bass and an excellent midrange and vocal performance. It warms up quickly and is not noisy or microphonic at all. It is an excellent value at $10.00 a pop. […] The build quality is high and they are very, very closely matched as tested on my tube tester. These get a "best buy" recommendation from Tuberoller. Try them before dropping big bucks on the Ken-Rads or CBS Brown or Red based tubes.” –Tuberoller
 ● “The biggest finding is that the Electro-Harmonix 6SN7 tube is about as good as a Syl 6SN7GTB.” –scottpaul_iu


----------



## JimL11

dpump said:


> ​I remember reading years ago that David Berning, when asked about 6SN7 tubes for the original MicroZOTL, said that the 6SN7GTB was the safest choice. He said the reason for that was the GTB version has a higher voltage rating than the GT or GTA. However, he also stated that although he recommended the GTB, he hadn't heard of a problem with people using the GT or GTA. I believe the GTB has a slower warm up time which might help the tube last longer.
> 
> I have used GT and GTB in my original MZ (which I sold years ago) and my MZ2. I did have a problem with one GT in the MZ2 where it would develop weird noises after the amp had been on for a while. If I turned the amp off and let the tube cool, it would work again until it heated up. Testing the tube on a tube tester didn't show any problems with the tube. Never had a problem using GT's in the original MZ.
> 
> doctorjazz, I would be worried if your 6SN7's really burned out, like maybe the heaters quit working? That would indicate you have too much voltage on the heater pins. Or maybe too much voltage on some other part of the tube. I have had small European signal tubes such as 12AX7 or 6DJ8 that flared on turn on and that can be considered normal for these tubes. Not sure a 6SN7should be flaring on turn on. Maybe Urban Audio can comment on this situation.


 

 That doesn't sound quite right.  The GTA and GTB have exactly the same voltage ratings according to all the tube manuals, e.g. max plate rating of 450V, 5 watts/plate vs GT which have only 300 volts max plate rating and 2.5 watts/plate.  The only specified difference between the GTA and GTB is that the GTB has a designed warm up time so that, back in the old days, when they were used in TV sets, they could be used in series filament heaters (e.g. 25 volts to heat 4 tubes in series), whereas the GTA could have a variable heating time which made that risky.  For audio purposes, AFAIK, nobody uses series heaters so GTA and GTB should work just as well.  The other difference is that GTA came out before GTB, so some NOS aficionados prefer GTAs as being earlier manufacture (although not always true, for example Phillips made GTAs into the 1980s).


----------



## dpump

jiml11 said:


> That doesn't sound quite right.  The GTA and GTB have exactly the same voltage ratings according to all the tube manuals, e.g. max plate rating of 450V, 5 watts/plate vs GT which have only 300 volts max plate rating and 2.5 watts/plate.  The only specified difference between the GTA and GTB is that the GTB has a designed warm up time so that, back in the old days, when they were used in TV sets, they could be used in series filament heaters (e.g. 25 volts to heat 4 tubes in series), whereas the GTA could have a variable heating time which made that risky.  For audio purposes, AFAIK, nobody uses series heaters so GTA and GTB should work just as well.  The other difference is that GTA came out before GTB, so some NOS aficionados prefer GTAs as being earlier manufacture (although not always true, for example Phillips made GTAs into the 1980s).


 
 Thanks for correcting me on the voltage for the GTA. I think the point is made for the GT being under rated for the MZ. It does seem like the GT wouldn't work at all but it obviously usually does. The 300 volt rating on the GT may explain why I had the problem I mentioned above with one getting noisy after heating up. Could also explain why doctorjazz had a pair burn out.


----------



## JimL11

dpump said:


> Thanks for correcting me on the voltage for the GTA. I think the point is made for the GT being under rated for the MZ. It does seem like the GT wouldn't work at all but it obviously usually does. The 300 volt rating on the GT may explain why I had the problem I mentioned above with one getting noisy after heating up. Could also explain why doctorjazz had a pair burn out.


 

 Yeah, based on the schematic, the cathode to plate voltage on the 6SN7 is about 432 volts (450 on the plate minus 18 volts on the cathode), which is definitely higher than the GTs specified 300 volts.  You can sometimes get away with it because the current through the 6SN7 is only about 4.7 mA, so the power dissipated by the plate is about 2 watts, which is 80% of max - that will decrease tube life.  But a GTA or GTB is a better choice because it is specified for a max cathode to plate voltage of 450 volts, and a power dissipation of 5 watts per plate or 7.5 watts per tube, so at 4 watts per tube you are only running at 53% of max power dissipation.  Also, NOS GTA or GTB tubes are generally less expensive than NOS GT tubes.


----------



## hrq12345

Ben from Mojo-Audio kindly lent me his illuminati for trial listening and I would like to post some impressions here. 

The illuminati is regarded as the ultimate linear power supply for MicroZOTL2. It is also owned by a lot of MZ2 owners here who tried out Ben's ultimate upgrade program. I received one from Ben about three weeks ago. Ben said that the illuminati needs at least more than one week's burning in for best performance, so I plugged it in and didn't start my evaluation until left it on for about two weeks. The illuminati has a very solid built, with a weight much heavier than the MZ2 itself. This is a huge reason for why I didn't keep the illuminati. But Ben said that there will be a newer version coming out shortly, with less weight.

Soundwise, the illuminati sounds not good when first received. (Yes I did try to listen to it when first plugged in) The sound was flat and even not as good as the original LPS. However, with the burning in, the sound started to become lively, with a tighter bass, more bodied mids and smoother highs. The soundstage expands as well. Overall I think the biggest improvement is that the MZ2 has more control over the sound but still with great dynamics. By saying more control I mean that there are some music that might make people feel uncomfortable and harsh to listen to. With the illuminati, the harshness is gone and the music is flowing and more natural.

My setup: Macbook Pro --- Hydra Z--- Yggy --- MZ2 --- HD800


----------



## zachawry

hrq12345 said:


> Ben from Mojo-Audio kindly lent me his illuminati for trial listening and I would like to post some impressions here.
> 
> The illuminati is regarded as the ultimate linear power supply for MicroZOTL2. It is also owned by a lot of MZ2 owners here who tried out Ben's ultimate upgrade program. I received one from Ben about three weeks ago. Ben said that the illuminati needs at least more than one week's burning in for best performance, so I plugged it in and didn't start my evaluation until left it on for about two weeks. The illuminati has a very solid built, with a weight much heavier than the MZ2 itself. This is a huge reason for why I didn't keep the illuminati. But Ben said that there will be a newer version coming out shortly, with less weight.
> 
> ...


 

 Yeah, the Illuminati is a beast. Just out of personal curiosity, why does the weight matter to you? Not like it's portable anyway...


----------



## hrq12345

zachawry said:


> Yeah, the Illuminati is a beast. Just out of personal curiosity, why does the weight matter to you? Not like it's portable anyway...


 
 I live on campus so move a lot during each vacation. This weight is really inconvenient.


----------



## Greeni

Anyone compared the Microzotl2 against the EMAC 535SE magnetic amp.
 I notice the Microzotl is now selling for $1,200 which is not far behind the EMAC 535SE, so just wonder how do the two compare.


----------



## Audio Addict

The EMAC 535SE is not out. There is one demo (Sparky) that has been with a few individuals since the first of the year. The first production unit (mine) won't be shipped until late April.


----------



## ted_b

Just got the Microzotl2-S in here yesterday.  It came with JAN GE 6201's and RCA JAN 12SN7's.  This thing is incredibly dynamic, alive and most of my listening is done at 9-10 oclock max on the dial (using Apple silver remote)..
  
 Question:  I have been hearing more than my fair share of soft clipping or distortion on some music, although in a few cases the slight distortion can be baely audible on other playback devices (like JRIver on my office setup).  I am hoping it is simply a by-product of having an incredibly clean window into my music, but also a little worried something is amiss, especially listening at such a low point in the whole preamp's gain structure.   My amps are Perla sold state monoblocks (which I recently reviewed on CA), and my source is the Holo Spring Level 3 Kitsune Edition dac (which I recently reviewed on CA).  Everything goes through HQPlayer and the microRendu as NAA.
  
 Does anyone understand what I'm saying I'm hearing?  Could it be a bad input tube or a possible mismatch with voltages (although Spring is classic 2V to 2.5V RMS RCA output, I think).  Or just the squeak of a pristinely clean window.
 Thx
 Ted


----------



## Audio Addict

FYI

https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2017/02/26/review-linear-tube-audio-microzotl2-0/


----------



## doctorjazz

Nice review... I've been meaning to try the ZOTL As pre-amp, haven't gotten to it, keep it connected to my PC for headphones use, but, one of these days...


----------



## krumley7882

audio addict said:


> FYI
> 
> https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2017/02/26/review-linear-tube-audio-microzotl2-0/


 

 I just read this today!  Congrats on another fantastic review!

 Still loving the ZOTL!


----------



## sabocat

OK so I've discovered a few interesting things lately. I'm quite sure someone must have written about this before, but anyway. I've noticed the MZ2 is quite sensitive to interconnects. In fact, the only ones it seems to like in my stash are the ones made by Mr. Morin at Lounge Audio for his phono preamp. They are cheap and work great. I had tried a few pairs of fancy interconnects with the Cd player and it just sounded like ****. When I hooked up Morin's interconnects, it sounded like music. 

 The other thing is after rolling some NOS 6SN7 tubes, I've discovered new production EH sounds just as good as my Sylvania GTB's.  And they are definitely the darkest and thus the best tubes so far for my new Omegas. Lots of bass.


----------



## saidentary

krumley7882 said:


> I just read this today!  Congrats on another fantastic review!
> 
> Still loving the ZOTL!


 
 What a gorgeous rig!  Thanks for sharing the eye candy!


----------



## kendavis

I recently auditioned the Mojo Audio Illuminati power supply and posted my impressions on the MicroZOTL2 Upgrade Discovery Thread but I wanted to post a link on this thread--I hope that it is not a violation of the posting guidelines. Anyway, my notes can be found here: http://www.head-fi.org/t/818130/microzotl2-upgrade-discovery-thread/60#post_13323420


----------



## doctorjazz

kendavis said:


> I recently auditioned the Mojo Audio Illuminati power supply and posted my impressions on the MicroZOTL2 Upgrade Discovery Thread but I wanted to post a link on this thread--I hope that it is not a violation of the posting guidelines. Anyway, my notes can be found here: http://www.head-fi.org/t/818130/microzotl2-upgrade-discovery-thread/60#post_13323420




Nice-I was going to compare these LPS's as well, then 1 channel of my ZOTL blew. I sent it to Ben/Mojo for repair and upgrade while I was at it, I'll post when it comes back.


----------



## mourip

For those of you that have the newer MZ2 model with switchable heater voltage try a 14N7 with the necessary loctal adapter readily available from EBAY.
  
 It is a 12v version of the 7N7, even cheaper and sounds about as good as it gets. Vocals are better than my Tungsol 12SN7 black glass round plate.
  
 The only gotcha is that you may need to either forgo the cover plate or find someone to drill out two holes as the tube + adapter combo may touch the plate, especially if you find the tall version.


----------



## mourip

mourip said:


> For those of you that have the newer MZ2 model with switchable heater voltage try a 14N7 with the necessary loctal adapter readily available from EBAY.
> 
> It is a 12v version of the 7N7, even cheaper and sounds about as good as it gets. Vocals are better than my Tungsol 12SN7 black glass round plate.
> 
> The only gotcha is that you may need to either forgo the cover plate or find someone to drill out two holes as the tube + adapter combo may touch the plate, especially if you find the tall version.


 
  
 Well this is embarrassing. I thought that I was buying a 14N7 but actually bought a 14F7 which is the electrical equivalent to a 12SL7. The odd thing is that I love the sound. It is pin compatible but has a gain of 60 rather than a gain of 20 so I am not sure what to make of this.
  
 I ordered a pair of 14N7s to replace these as I want to be sure to use tubes that were meant for the amp but it is a bit of a mystery why it sounds so good. Hopefully the 14N7 will have the same sound...


----------



## mourip

Important question. Have any of you run into issues with NOS 6SN7 tube failures in your MicroZOTL?
  
 I found out from LTA that the MZ2 runs the tubes at 450v. Most NOS 6SN7 and variants have a max plate voltage of 300v.


----------



## zachawry

I am most definitely not knowledgable about this stuff, but everyone who is seems to agree that the MZ2 is very easy on tubes, i.e. not causing lots of wear.


----------



## sabocat

I had a couple of Sylvanias that got fried.


----------



## dpump

mourip said:


> Important question. Have any of you run into issues with NOS 6SN7 tube failures in your MicroZOTL?
> 
> I found out from LTA that's the MZ2 runs the tubes at 450v. Most NOS 6SN7 and variants have a max plate voltage of 300v.


 
 I used to have the original MZ running 6SN7GT's and never had a problem. With the MZ2 I have had 1 6SN7GT that would get noisy after the amp was on for a while. Turning the amp off and letting everything cool would result in the tube being ok until it heated up again. Other 6SN7GT's were fine. I switched to 6SN7GTB and now Russian- 6H8C, it's an accepted substitute for the 6SN7-and haven't had any problems. Another poster here suggested the Russian tubes and I remembered I had purchased some a number of years ago; I really like them. Also ran 6F8G's for a while with no problem.
  
 I mentioned here a while back that David Berning had said years ago, when the original MZ was still available, that there could be problems with the 6SN7GT because of the voltage rating on the tubes. I believe he said he hadn't heard of anyone having a problem but he recommended using 6SN7GTA or 6SN7GTB to be safe.


----------



## mourip

Thanks to those who replied. I received emails from Mark at LTA and also David Berning both of whom relieved my fears. I would say that most 6SN7s and variants should be fine. In my experience even good testing NOS tubes can go noisy regardless of the circuit, specially once they warm up.
  
 Right now I am trying some tall 7N7's which sound very good and will try some NOS 6SN7GT Sylvanias next.
  
 Does anyone have a reliable source for authentic NOS Russian Melz 6SN7GT 6N8S /1578 tubes?


----------



## tunes

Trilogy 931, SCHIIT Jotunheim or MicroZOTL2 for HEK V2 with Hugo 2? Which would have best synergy?


----------



## doctorjazz

Does someone have all 3, or has heard all 3 in good conditions? That would be interesting (love my ZOTL with HEK v1).


----------



## sheldaze

tunes said:


> Trilogy 931, SCHIIT Jotunheim or MicroZOTL2 for HEK V2 with Hugo 2? Which would have best synergy?


 
 This _is_ a MicroZOTL2 thread 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 But in all seriousness, while I enjoyed the Jot, it has a flaw. Took me a while to recognize it. The flaw affects the sound stage in a small portion - center front. The MicroZOTL2 has no such issues, and is amazing - not only with the HEK, but with a number of other headphones. The Jot can be kind of bright with headphones you may purchase in future.
  
 I've not heard the Trilogy 931. I owned both the MicroZOTL2 and Jotunheim.


----------



## doctorjazz

Hey, @Sheldaze!!!!
How was the meet? REALLY sorry I couldn't go...(I know, off topic)


----------



## tunes

Does anyone think that the HEK V2 can be driven to it full dynamic potential without an amp using The HUGO 2??? 

I have my eye on this Chord DAC but apparently there is no way to bypass the internal amp to add another more powerful external amp in the chain, like the MicroZotl2. So you would be adding more perterbations/distortion in the chain.


----------



## zachawry

tunes said:


> Does anyone think that the HEK V2 can be driven to it full dynamic potential without an amp using The HUGO 2???
> 
> I have my eye on this Chord DAC but apparently there is no way to bypass the internal amp to add another more powerful external amp in the chain, like the MicroZotl2. So you would be adding more perterbations/distortion in the chain.


 

 The details are kinda above my head, but my understanding is that the Hugos don't have an amp per se, it's just the output stage of the DAC that doesn't cause any distortion of the signal. If you want more info, ask on the Hugo thread. 
  
 I use an MZ2 with my Ethers instead of directly from the Hugo. The MZ2 is a  clear and transparent amp, but it provides more dynamics and soundstage compared to the Hugo alone. 
  
 FWIW.


----------



## sheldaze

doctorjazz said:


> Hey, @Sheldaze!!!!
> How was the meet? REALLY sorry I couldn't go...(I know, off topic)


 
 Great! Excellent new venue, and really far enough North of the DC area, so traveling down to it makes a lot of sense.
  
 Sorry for the slow reply - I was at LTA yesterday (you know, the guys who make MicroZOTL2 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 - trying to keep this on topic), completing some of the listening comparisons I wanted to do at the meet. They may perhaps have an in house device for use on the USB chain. So we did the comparisons against the usual suspects - Wyrd, Regen, Intona, JitterBug.
  
 Hope you can make it down to a future meet!


----------



## doctorjazz

sheldaze said:


> doctorjazz said:
> 
> 
> > Hey, @Sheldaze!!!!
> ...




Interesting... I have a Regen and an LH Labs Revive in the house. How did the comparisons go?


----------



## sheldaze

doctorjazz said:


> Interesting... I have a Regen and an LH Labs Revive in the house. How did the comparisons go?


 
@TimeLord was probably the most engaged participant. We used his Singxer SU-1, feeding into my Chord 2Qute (the 2Qute gave us a baseline to aim for due to its clean internal USB) back into his Liquid Gold. @willsw was of course listening, between helping other customers.
  
 To my ears, USB cleanup has the primary issue of trying to remove electrical noise from the signal. The Regen does this quite well! However, in my recent comparisons with some other cleanup solutions, the Regen also dampened the sound ever so slightly. Sounds which should quickly attack and decay were either held slightly longer, or did not attack with the same verve as the original musician struck the instrument or played the note. Everything was down just a slight notch. I'm using the Amber Regen with the original power supply. So perhaps it would be interesting to do the comparison with the JS-2 (one of the gentlemen in the store, Will was helping, owns the JS-2!!!).
  
 But the product we were auditioning was around the same or less cost than the Regen. So we used the stock power supply in both. And the new product both addressed the noise issue, while keeping the rhythm and pace of the music. Perhaps the Regen addressed the noise better, but it definitely lost a little of the quick pace of the music.
  
 And for anyone else out there reading, these deltas are all very subtle! I did not hear this until I direct compared against other solutions, or went back to the stock USB-only cable (ignoring the noise, and just listening to the dynamics and pace of the music). So it was quite interesting to see if this small delta registered with the other listeners!


----------



## doctorjazz

My quickie impressions using Revive and Regen, liked Revive better, felt Regen lost a bit of clarity. Currently using the modded by Mojo ZOTL, and a loaner Illuminati. Sounding really nice...


----------



## EdmontonCanuck

I've tried a couple of USB re-clocking/cleanup devices and I have to say that with my DAC I can tell absolutely no difference so I keep them out of the chain.


----------



## sheldaze

It truly is like the Wild Wild West, where everything is true!
  
 After the comparison, one of the guys went back to his home system. He apparently has clean USB coming from his computer source because it sounded quite good into the SU-1, regardless of using a cleaning device or not. That's how it is supposed to be, but I cannot get a definitive answer on what computers sound good, versus those that sound poor. It really is the Wild West!


----------



## doctorjazz

Makes a difference on my home system-not day and night, but enough to leave it in the chain (and I'd generally prefer less in the chain).


----------



## willsw

Coming in to the USB comparison after trying to compare a couple of devices on my home speaker system (which turned out in the larger comparison to be the two least colored, I believe, active devices: the Schiit Wyrd and the Doodlebug distributed by Beezar, which is the unnamed device @sheldaze referred to), I was surprised by how clear the differences between some of the USB chains were. Of course, while educational and interesting, since I don't have a 2Qute or a Singxer at home I'll have to decide which things I like in my own chain. Currently trying USB out of a Macbook into a Wyrd and then into a DIYinHK USB>spdif converter, finally finding the coaxial input on the DAC. We had good results with a separately powered USB cable, and after building one incorrectly on my first attempt I'll be making another to try. 
  
 How does this relate to MicroZOTL2/MZ2 discussion? I'm often asked which DACs match well with the amp and I suppose if you're experiencing what you find to be a mismatch with a DAC and amp, another place to look to solve very subtle but noticeable dissatisfactions could be the source for the DAC. I think this is becoming more and more accepted as common knowledge amongst those who use digital audio. Bits being bits and all. 
  
 I've been having fun making fancy (or fancy seeming) DC cables. Last night learned how to braid six strands and did three 24awg wires each for power and ground, individually sleeved and braided. Has anyone found improvements with upgraded DC cables?


----------



## jamato8

tunes said:


> Does anyone think that the HEK V2 can be driven to it full dynamic potential without an amp using The HUGO 2???
> 
> I have my eye on this Chord DAC but apparently there is no way to bypass the internal amp to add another more powerful external amp in the chain, like the MicroZotl2. So you would be adding more perterbations/distortion in the chain.


 

 I think the Hugo does fine, don't have the Hugo 2, but the mZ2 in the chain does even better. More spacious, dynamic and layered.


----------



## Loose-Leaf

Hi all , Pardon me if this has already been discussed ,..Who has tried the early 1950s Bendix Red Bank 2C50 / 12sn7 in their Microzotl ? I think they are the cheery on top ,.


----------



## mourip

loose-leaf said:


> Hi all , Pardon me if this has already been discussed ,..Who has tried the early 1950s Bendix Red Bank 2C50 / 12sn7 in their Microzotl ? I think they are the cheery on top ,.


 
 I would love to try a pair of those. RedBank tubes in general are really over-built and sound great.
  
 Right now I am using 14N7's with of course loctal to octal adapters. These best even Kenrad black glass round plate tubes...in my system.
  
 I did need to have two holes cut in the plexi lid to accommodate the added height of the tubes but it also gives better ventilation.
  
 Also keep track of the tube specs for voltage as the MZ runs at a pretty high voltage. I contacted both David Berning and LTA asking about which tubes could safely be used. The reply was a tad vague and ran something along the lines that the amp runs at 400v or higher however they have had few issues with NOS tubes rated at 300v.
  
 This was somewhat comforting but left me feeling a bit confused specially when the best sound from the MZ seems to come with NOS tubes.


----------



## Loose-Leaf

mourip said:


> I would love to try a pair of those. RedBank tubes in general are really over-built and sound great.
> 
> Right now I am using 14N7's with of course loctal to octal adapters. These best even Kenrad black glass round plate tubes...in my system.
> 
> ...


My first use of Bendix tubes was back in the 1990s as rectifier tube in the power supply , either the preamp finally broke in at that moment or the Bendix rectifier really did improve overall performance .

As you probably know a lot of these tubes were used in missile defence among other applications. Anyway so far I'm really enjoying my Micro .
My plans for the Micro are to drive speakers with occasional use of headphones . There's lots of brands and kits however I'd like a really good match .

Just a short note a friend has a Klipsh surround sound consisting of the Klipsh RF7 2s that have a sensitivity of 101dB ,.Well I was never a fan of Klipsh however we were bold over with what the Micro did with these speakers , I think a perfect match . They accually sounded half decent and the bass was astounding , I guess the damping factor of the amp is well suited with this model of speakers.
 Exceptional well known recordings I'm familiar with separates the wheat from the chaff pretty quick evaluating components and LTA have a genuine heavy hitter with the Micro.


----------



## saidentary

loose-leaf said:


> Just a short note a friend has a Klipsh surround sound consisting of the Klipsh RF7 2s that have a sensitivity of 101dB ,.Well I was never a fan of Klipsh however we were bold over with what the Micro did with these speakers , I think a perfect match . They accually sounded half decent and the bass was astounding , I guess the damping factor of the amp is well suited with this model of speakers.
> Exceptional well known recordings I'm familiar with separates the wheat from the chaff pretty quick evaluating components and LTA have a genuine heavy hitter with the Micro.


 
 W-W-W.....WOW! Very very VERY cool.  Thanks for sharing.  I wouldn't have expected this level of diversity from the venerable MZ2.  I've truly stumbled onto a gem.  I continue to love mine.


----------



## crazychile

loose-leaf said:


> Just a short note a friend has a Klipsh surround sound consisting of the Klipsh RF7 2s that have a sensitivity of 101dB ,.Well I was never a fan of Klipsh however we were bold over with what the Micro did with these speakers , I think a perfect match . They accually sounded half decent and the bass was astounding , I guess the damping factor of the amp is well suited with this model of speakers.
> Exceptional well known recordings I'm familiar with separates the wheat from the chaff pretty quick evaluating components and LTA have a genuine heavy hitter with the Micro.


 
  
 My buddy has a pair of highly tweaked Klipsch LaScalas. I sold Klipsch for many years and never liked them for much beyond the occasional urge to play stuff stupid-loud. They just didn't image worth a darn. Personally I'm more of a Magneplanar or 80s-90s era B&W guy. But my friends pair fixed a lot of the usual Klipsch issues and they now image plus have the drum impact and bass guitar slap and growl when called for. His current amp is a Luxman tube integrated rated at 25 watts and it can still play as loud as you'd ever want.
  
 One night we dropped the MZ2 in the system (the LaScalas are at least 101 db efficient) and it was a major disapointment. No impact or dynamics. Even understanding that 1 watt only goes so far and to scale back expectations, we pulled it out after a couple of songs. 1 watt isn't good for anything beyond near field desktop applications or musak level passive listening. IMHO.


----------



## Loose-Leaf

crazychile said:


> My buddy has a pair of highly tweaked Klipsch LaScalas. I sold Klipsch for many years and never liked them for much beyond the occasional urge to play stuff stupid-loud. They just didn't image worth a darn. Personally I'm more of a Magneplanar or 80s-90s era B&W guy. But my friends pair fixed a lot of the usual Klipsch issues and they now image plus have the drum impact and bass guitar slap and growl when called for. His current amp is a Luxman tube integrated rated at 25 watts and it can still play as loud as you'd ever want.
> 
> One night we dropped the MZ2 in the system (the LaScalas are at least 101 db efficient) and it was a major disapointment. No impact or dynamics. Even understanding that 1 watt only goes so far and to scale back expectations, we pulled it out after a couple of songs. 1 watt isn't good for anything beyond near field desktop applications or musak level passive listening. IMHO.


Yep there are differences between the two speakers however the Micro really got on well with the RF7s next month the Micro will be hooked up to some nice horn speakers maybe it will sound awful but the hunt is on .


----------



## doctorjazz

AT the NY Audio show a few months back, 2 ZOTL's were driving some horn speakers (I posted it here at the time), did a really nice job driving them, sounded nice.


----------



## TomekZ

MICROZOTL 2 with 4 different power supplies. I've tried the original SMPS, a Mojo Audio "Joule III", a Red Wine Audio "Black Lightning" LiFePo battery, and, finally, the Vinnie Rossi "MINI" ultracap supply. How dramatically a power supply affects quality of sound. After the original, I used the Mojo Audio supply: this brought warmth, weight & sweetness. The Red Wine Audio battery: this brought liquidity & a sense of greater power & a blacker background, perhaps with less bass control. Now, with the Vinnie Rossi ultra cap: a more laid back perspective, even greater bass control & slam, sweetness, detail, effortlessness. Keeping the Vinnie Rossi "MINI". 
 I power HiFiMan 560s & Audioquest Nighthawks. Also Omega drivers...which I got before noticing Urban HiFi is distributing the Omega 94.5 starting efficient speakers. Had many single driver speakers and these are great, sounding so awesome with my favorite of all time amp, the MICROZOTL 2 !


----------



## zachawry

So it's with a somewhat heavy heart that I've decided to sell my Zotl40 amp. It has the same great clarity and air as the MZ2, but unfortunately I just can't make it work with my notoriously hard to drive speakers.

PM me if you're interested in buying one for a good price.


----------



## TomekZ

Note: if anyone desires my Mojo Joule ver 3 for your MICROZOTL , PM me. Already parted from my RWA battery supply.


----------



## willsw

https://www.instagram.com/p/BTJvmc4FtAI/


----------



## Loose-Leaf

Hi Willsw , I recognize some of the components on your table , what is the component with the tubes sticking out of it on the back right ?


----------



## mourip

loose-leaf said:


> Hi Willsw , I recognize some of the components on your table , what is the component with the tubes sticking out of it on the back right ?


 
  
 Following the Instagram link it lists Lampizator and it looks like one. That would really be an endgame system.


----------



## willsw

loose-leaf said:


> Hi Willsw , I recognize some of the components on your table , what is the component with the tubes sticking out of it on the back right ?


 
 That's the Lampizator Atlantic, which we're pairing mainly with our Electrostatic prototype but occasionally hook up to an MZ2-S. We're showing upstairs with Lampizator and their Golden Atlantic, so I asked if they had an extra DAC to put on our booth. It sonuds very very good.


----------



## MinaZuki KoYoru

Anyone uses it on PSU? how about the upgrade?


----------



## willsw

A few more pictures from Axpona.

The other DACs and the beautiful ZMF Eikons




A little after-hours fun driving these huge horns with our watt.


The electrostatic prototype (the far one - the closer one with tubes showing is the Lampizator Atlantic DAC)


----------



## Clsmooth391

Clsmooth391 said:


> Just tried the Russian 6N8S Metal Base tubes (replacing the TS 6SN7GTB). These tubes are so much better. The harshness has gone and the sound is so much more natural. Very happy with them.



I am selling this pair. I bought them new from Mojo Audio and I have used them for a maximum of 30-40 hours. PM me if interested.

Compared to the stock Tung Sol 6SN7GTB, there is a lot more detail but the sound is more natural. The soundstage has really opened up with them especially in depth.


----------



## Clsmooth391

I am considering selling my Mojo Audio upgraded Micro Zotl and Illuminati power supply. Please PM me if interested.


----------



## mbyrnes

Clsmooth391 said:


> I am considering selling my Mojo Audio upgraded Micro Zotl and Illuminati power supply. Please PM me if interested.



Just curious. What amp are you looking at as a replacement? Love my ZOTL, but always curious about what else is out there. 

Did you list it in the classifieds here?


----------



## Clsmooth391

I have put an interest check in the classifieds. Not 100% I even want to sell but thinking of the Devialet Ensemble package.

I prefer the stock Micro Zotl 2 to the Balancing Act which I used to have.


----------



## mbyrnes

Clsmooth391 said:


> I have put an interest check in the classifieds. Not 100% I even want to sell but thinking of the Devialet Ensemble package.
> 
> I prefer the stock Micro Zotl 2 to the Balancing Act which I used to have.



That a no joke system, hopefully you can keep the ZOTL in the process. Expensive hobby with limited resources for most, even the high end stuff. Hope you end up happy with whichever way you decide. 

I'm lucky my 2 channel system was finished when I started the Headphone game. Now my ZOTL makes Headphones and my 2 channel system better simultaneously.


----------



## Clsmooth391

Thank you. I am trying to decide which direction to move in. Really like my rig so it's not an easy decision to make.

I am glad the ZOTL is doing a great job for you.


----------



## doctorjazz

I have to try the ZOTL as a preamp one of these days. I have the Mojo upgraded ZOTL, but still using the LTA LPS. 
Have everything to do it, but just haven't gotten around to it. 
Love it with my HE-1000 v2, though.


----------



## mbyrnes

doctorjazz said:


> I have to try the ZOTL as a preamp one of these days. I have the Mojo upgraded ZOTL, but still using the LTA LPS.
> Have everything to do it, but just haven't gotten around to it.
> Love it with my HE-1000 v2, though.



I think you'd really enjoy the sound and how easy it is to access music from a PC. I run heavy duty RCA cables to my 2 channel system (15' cable run). My ZOTL sits next to me on my couch (along with all my headphone gear). So from my couch I can control my PC music and the ZOTL really makes a nice sound difference versus using my Pioneer Elite SC-72 alone. I run the ZOTL at slightly less than half volume into CD RCA inputs. Really cool feature if you use it. Think you'd enjoy it immensely Doc. Just another great option for music playback.


----------



## Clsmooth391

After careful thought, I have decided to sell and will do a very good price for anyone interested. Never seen an upgraded ZOTL or Illuminati come up for sale before.

There's a local hifi dealer who knows the Micro Zotl and is interested. if it doesn't move soon, I will pay him a visit and see what he has for trade.


----------



## mbyrnes

Clsmooth391 said:


> After careful thought, I have decided to sell and will do a very good price for anyone interested. Never seen an upgraded ZOTL or Illuminati come up for sale before.
> 
> There's a local hifi dealer who knows the Micro Zotl and is interested. if it doesn't move soon, I will pay him a visit and see what he has for trade.



Good luck! Audio Nirvana is different for everyone and hopefully your next move puts a huge smile on your face. Go check out the dealer anyway to see what he may have. Always fun demoing new gear!


----------



## Clsmooth391

Thank you. I would prefer to give someone here a good deal. The dealer who's interested is the same one where i first heard the micro Zotl and was blown away. I was about to ask if he would be interested in a trade in and he received a call right then offering his full asking price.


----------



## mourip

Clsmooth391 said:


> Thank you. I would prefer to give someone here a good deal. The dealer who's interested is the same one where i first heard the micro Zotl and was blown away. I was about to ask if he would be interested in a trade in and he received a call right then offering his full asking price.



Have you posted a for sale thread here on HF yet? I have read your saga in the other MZ thread and will certainly give your ad a boost. 

I live near LTA and own an MZ2+ and a Z10. This gear is a bargain at its price. 

A couple of other options are Audiogon or finding someone with a stock unit to make a trade for. With the difference in cash you could get a Schiit DAC and have a very satisfying system.


----------



## Clsmooth391

Thank you Mourip. I have now traded it in with a local dealer. I agree the Micro Zotl is a great amp. I have got to demo the COS Engineering H1 amp/dac and decided to go for it. It's a very different sound to the MZ2.


----------



## mourip

Clsmooth391 said:


> Thank you Mourip. I have now traded it in with a local dealer. I agree the Micro Zotl is a great amp. I have got to demo the COS Engineering H1 amp/dac and decided to go for it. It's a very different sound to the MZ2.



Great. Hope that it works out well for you. Sorry about your experience as described in the other thread. 

I think that most folks will be well served by dealing directly with LTA for upgrades and tweaks. They are great to work with, flexible regarding customization, and always looking for ways to improve their own products.


----------



## Clsmooth391

mourip said:


> Great. Hope that it works out well for you. Sorry about your experience as described in the other thread.
> 
> I think that most folks will be well served by dealing directly with LTA for upgrades and tweaks. They are great to work with, flexible regarding customization, and always looking for ways to improve their own products.




Thank you! LTA have been absolutely great and gone above and beyond with their service.

My upgrades were with Mojo Audio. It's very disappointing that it's come to this (per the other thread). I tried to give a balanced view of my experience but at no point was I told to upgrade my source first.


----------



## Loose-Leaf

Anyone using the ZMF ORI LE headphones that is recommended on LTA web site ?


----------



## willsw

Loose-Leaf said:


> Anyone using the ZMF ORI LE headphones that is recommended on LTA web site ?



The Ori used to be the Omni, so searching this thread for "Omni" might be a better way to find the impressions people have written.


----------



## Loose-Leaf

Thanks for the reply Will ,


----------



## mourip

Loose-Leaf said:


> Hi all , Pardon me if this has already been discussed ,..Who has tried the early 1950s Bendix Red Bank 2C50 / 12sn7 in their Microzotl ? I think they are the cheery on top ,.



I just got in a pair today and am letting them settle. They seem to have a lush mid-range with lots of good, tight bass but their top end has not reached the airiness of my 14N7s yet. I only have a couple of hours on them and as you might have noticed the MZ2 seems to take longer than other amps for tubes to break-in. These are very promising however.


----------



## Loose-Leaf

mourip said:


> I just got in a pair today and am letting them settle. They seem to have a lush mid-range with lots of good, tight bass but their top end has not reached the airiness of my 14N7s yet. I only have a couple of hours on them and as you might have noticed the MZ2 seems to take longer than other amps for tubes to break-in. These are very promising however.


I think I was getting ahead myself expecting something better by rolling tubes so soon of receiving my MZ2S , 
 There were simply too many things settling in at once , new components and new interconnects all going through various stages of change and now after weeks of listening I'm sure all has settled in .Currently I'm using LTAs selection of tubes also I did change out the chassis RCAs in the MZ2S with silver Eichmann which my interconnects are terimiated with also including replacing the standard ac cable from power supply to MZ2S to the premium cable offered on LTAs site . Right now I'm thrilled with what I'm hearing and perhaps someday try the Red Bank Bendix including some select 12AT7s and with that any changes would be easily decerned ,


----------



## mourip (Aug 20, 2017)

Loose-Leaf said:


> I think I was getting ahead myself expecting something better by rolling tubes so soon of receiving my MZ2S ,
> There were simply too many things settling in at once , new components and new interconnects all going through various stages of change and now after weeks of listening I'm sure all has settled in .Currently I'm using LTAs selection of tubes also I did change out the chassis RCAs in the MZ2S with silver Eichmann which my interconnects are terimiated with also including replacing the standard ac cable from power supply to MZ2S to the premium cable offered on LTAs site . Right now I'm thrilled with what I'm hearing and perhaps someday try the Red Bank Bendix including some select 12AT7s and with that any changes would be easily decerned ,



Sounds like a good plan. The MZ2 and Z10 are amazing pieces of kit but one must be aware that to get there takes a bit more break-in patience than with other equipment. Tube swapping break-in especially takes longer as does warm up with each listening session.

Our patience is rewarded by remarkable sound and long lived tube life as well.


----------



## Loose-Leaf

mourip said:


> Sounds like a good plan. The MZ2 and Z10 are amazing pieces of kit but one must be aware that to get there takes a bit more break-in patience that with other equipment. Tube swapping break-in especially takes longer as does warm up with each listening session.
> 
> Our patience is rewarded by remarkable sound and long lived tube life as well.


Yes patience is a virtue and finally after a year my attempt at putting together an enjoyable headphone experience was renewed with the purchase of the ZMF ORI LE and MZ2 S .


----------



## mbyrnes

Has anyone bought the newer unit with remote? I don't see pictures on their site of a remote. I am contemplating sending my original MZ2 in to upgrade to remote control (and the 3rd input). It sounds like they are just going to give me a new unit. I recently bought a Schiit Vidar and Saga combo, but I wasn't aware they added the IR sensor to the MZ2. I would imagine the MZ2 would destroy the Saga as a Pre-amp.

Hopefully someone can chime in with their experience with the remote functionality.


----------



## mourip

mbyrnes said:


> Has anyone bought the newer unit with remote? I don't see pictures on their site of a remote. I am contemplating sending my original MZ2 in to upgrade to remote control (and the 3rd input). It sounds like they are just going to give me a new unit. I recently bought a Schiit Vidar and Saga combo, but I wasn't aware they added the IR sensor to the MZ2. I would imagine the MZ2 would destroy the Saga as a Pre-amp.
> 
> Hopefully someone can chime in with their experience with the remote functionality.



AFAIK the new remote is a motorized version of the same Alps Blue pot. It just has volume up and down but no mute or balance. That might be enough for many. I have the remote-less version and use a Tortuga LDR "passive remote control preamp before the MZ2. I need the balance control due to uneven sonics in my room.


----------



## mbyrnes

I recently picked up a Schiit Eitr/Mimby/Saga/Vidar combo. I am actually amazed at the quality of the Saga preamp ($349 tube buffered), which does have a remote control. I keep thinking that the MZ2 would just be a much better preamp for the Vidar. Currently my headphone setup sits next to me on the couch. I have really enjoyed the MZ2 as a headphone amp. It would be about $400 to upgrade my MZ2. Now this will essentially get me the newest MZ2S, as my board will be put into the new chassis (which is the thicker case, adds a 3rd input, IR sensor, and the modified pre-out improvements LTA has made). This IMO is a very reasonable price to charge.

I think I will let the Saga settle in a little longer (particularly the tube), than do a comparison between the two before deciding if the upgrade is worth it. I've read a few reviews with the MZ2 as a preamp, and everyone praised the MZ2 so much as a preamp. If it isn't a night and day difference, I'll just stick with the Saga. Truth be told, the Saga/Vidar with the lowly Modi Multibit DAC has been a very revealing system. I have owned several mid-upper level AVRs, and the Schiit gear is the best sounding by a long shot. My father commented while listening to IHeartRadio through the Xbox One S, that songs he has heard hundreds of times, have details he has never noticed (He has been an A/V enthusiast for almost 50 years).

I will do the upgrade to the MZ2 at some point regardless, but currently I am still acquiring a few expensive pieces (Smyth Research A16 and a Turntable, most likely the upcoming Schiit Sol). I really wish I knew the MZ2S has an IR sensor BEFORE I bought the Saga. Now I'll have to wait a few months before upgrading as funds are redirected elsewhere for a while.

I will say this, the LTA guys have been great to deal with. I emailed them about upgrading, and the few emails were answered quickly, and with everything I asked and more in their answers. I love when companies care enough to respond quickly and thoroughly.


----------



## willsw

mbyrnes said:


> Has anyone bought the newer unit with remote? I don't see pictures on their site of a remote. I am contemplating sending my original MZ2 in to upgrade to remote control (and the 3rd input). It sounds like they are just going to give me a new unit. I recently bought a Schiit Vidar and Saga combo, but I wasn't aware they added the IR sensor to the MZ2. I would imagine the MZ2 would destroy the Saga as a Pre-amp.
> 
> Hopefully someone can chime in with their experience with the remote functionality.



You've made me realize that in updating the site photography to make sure the newest version of everything was shown, I did not include any pictures of the remote. It is a standard Apple remote. Here is a photo of it with an MZ2 (which no longer has the white ring around the HP jack). 

The Schiit preamps use a nice-quality digitally stepped attenuator - I actually use a Saga at home. Before committing to the upgrade, though I think it will slightly improve your unit beyond adding remote functionality, I'd suggest spending a few days laboriously getting up to change the volume and trying the MZ2 in your system as a preamp. I believe the Vidar employs a novel topology and every preamp does not find synergy with every power amp. Another option (which I'm currently trying in my home system) is to use the Saga in passive mode and insert the MZ2 in the chain between it and your power amp.


----------



## mbyrnes

willsw said:


> You've made me realize that in updating the site photography to make sure the newest version of everything was shown, I did not include any pictures of the remote. It is a standard Apple remote. Here is a photo of it with an MZ2 (which no longer has the white ring around the HP jack).
> 
> The Schiit preamps use a nice-quality digitally stepped attenuator - I actually use a Saga at home. Before committing to the upgrade, though I think it will slightly improve your unit beyond adding remote functionality, I'd suggest spending a few days laboriously getting up to change the volume and trying the MZ2 in your system as a preamp. I believe the Vidar employs a novel topology and every preamp does not find synergy with every power amp. Another option (which I'm currently trying in my home system) is to use the Saga in passive mode and insert the MZ2 in the chain between it and your power amp.



That's exactly what I was going to do. I'm playing with a few things first before doing the upgrade. Still dialing in the Saga and really enjoying it. My entire setup is massive and confusing to many. I'm going to try the MZ2 in a few configurations, and see how it goes. It'll be a fun project experiment.


----------



## headfirocks (Oct 12, 2017)

I just read about this amp for the first time.  Has anyone compared it to the Eddie Current Black Widow?


----------



## frankraindog

Sorry if this was already covered, but I would like to know if it is still possible to use 6SN7 Tubes in the S Version which comes with stock 12SN7 tubes.


----------



## willsw

frankraindog said:


> Sorry if this was already covered, but I would like to know if it is still possible to use 6SN7 Tubes in the S Version which comes with stock 12SN7 tubes.



It depends - as there has been some evolution of the name that hasn't been very clear. Originally, the circuit board was altered in order to allow the use of 12SN7s, so you could not use 6SN7s. Later, we redesigned the board to have jumpers, which allows the user to relatively easily choose whether they'd like to use 6SN7 or 12SN7 tubes. 

All current and recent amps have the jumpers. If you are looking to purchase a used amp, ask the seller if the board has jumpers.


----------



## frankraindog

thanks for the information, will asked for this before pulling the trigger


----------



## mourip

For those interested in LTA products I noticed on their site that they are having a 10% off Black Friday sale through Monday...


----------



## davide256

Has anyone else tried the SotM SPS-500 power supply yet with their Zotl2? Its trouncing the HDPlex linear power supply I was using to power the Zotl, so much more impact and fullness in instruments. I don't think its going to end up connected where I originally intended...


----------



## willsw

davide256 said:


> Has anyone else tried the SotM SPS-500 power supply yet with their Zotl2? Its trouncing the HDPlex linear power supply I was using to power the Zotl, so much more impact and fullness in instruments. I don't think its going to end up connected where I originally intended...



The MZ2 has a well-documented history of scaling up with its power supply. The amp circuit reflects very transparently what is going into it in both signal and power.


----------



## davide256

In the FWIW column, after the PS upgrade I needed to change 12AT7 tubes, the Mullard 6201's were no longer as well behaved in the Zotl 2, exhibiting bass wooliness and some treble "clipping". I'm now using Siemens E81CC, a "drier" sounding tube but linear and well behaved in the treble.


----------



## joespride

MicroZotl in the house, Senn HD800 is singing. I do feel like this is the missing link.  J-River > Electrocompaniet ECD-1 > MicroZotl > HD800 Sounds Fantastic, Just yesterday I was contemplating moving to speakers permanently,


----------



## mourip

I noted on the LTA web page that their new MicroZotl preamp it now available for pre-order. Looks like a very nice update for an excellent headamp/preamp: Fern and Roby case, more inputs, beefier supply, upgraded parts, single chassis, remote with balance control, discrete volume pot.

I hope to have one for testing soon.


----------



## Thunder240

Hey folks, I’m intrigued by the idea of using an MZ-2S as a preamp in my main stereo rig. For a long time, that role was played by an Adcom GFP-750, but I moved recently and it’s rightful owner took it back. For now, a spare Nuforce Icon HDP (+ Teradak LPS) is serving as preamp. It’s ok, but I know I could do better, and I’m intrigued by the reviews of the MZ-2S and it’s liquid sound.

Any owners near San Francisco who’d consider allowing me to audition? My intent would be to bring over my Nuforce for some A/B comparisons. Ideally we’d listen through speakers. If that’s not possible, I could also bring over some powered Audio Engine A2 desktop speakers.


----------



## mourip (Jul 16, 2018)

I decided to purchase the new MicroZotl which I will use primarily as a preamp in my speaker based system. 

I hope to post more impressions after I pick it up it next week but I can say that after hearing it in my home during beta testing it is a real improvement over the already excellent MZ2.


----------



## doctorjazz

I have the original MZotl (not original original, but early in the LTA run).
Tried to use it as a preamp, got intolerable hum, not sure how to correct it (likely a simple thing, but I don't know how to go about this).
Any suggestions? Thanks


----------



## drbluenewmexico

doctorjazz said:


> I have the original MZotl (not original original, but early in the LTA run).
> Tried to use it as a preamp, got intolerable hum, not sure how to correct it (likely a simple thing, but I don't know how to go about this).
> Any suggestions? Thanks


Ive had hum a few times connecting the Microzotl as a preamp. turned out to be the cables. try some different
cables to see what happens.  if not, might be an impedence issue with what you are connecting to, but probably
a cable grounding issue....


----------



## mourip

doctorjazz said:


> I have the original MZotl (not original original, but early in the LTA run).
> Tried to use it as a preamp, got intolerable hum, not sure how to correct it (likely a simple thing, but I don't know how to go about this).
> Any suggestions? Thanks



Email Mark at LTA. They are remarkably responsive.


----------



## Thunder240

mourip said:


> I decided to purchase the new MicroZotl which I will use primarily as a preamp in my speaker based system.
> 
> I hope to post more impressions after I pick it up it next week but I can say that after hearing it in my home during beta testing it is a real improvement over the already excellent MZ2.



Yes, please do share your impressions! If possible, I’d be interested in a comparison to MZ2 / MZ2-S as a preamp.


----------



## mourip

I picked up my LTA MicroZOTL Preamp on Monday and have been playing music on it for most of each day. It is a definite improvement over the already excellent MZ2. For now I will keep my impressions to its use as a preamp in a speaker system as I have been too engrossed with it to test the headphone output... which I assume will be equally improved.

The main improvements are in clarity, dynamics, and low end tightness/definition. The sound stage is deeper, wider, better defined, and has better front to back layering. It is much easier to tell which instruments are farther back in the room. Subtle details are better revealed. Dynamics induce toe tapping and have a wider range. Tonality is much more realistic/true. The background is remarkably quiet.

The good news is that it has a remote with volume, balance, and input control. It is a bit hard to set up but once done it works well.

I am using 14N7(12 volt 6SN7 equivalent) output tubes(with loctal adapter) and 7062(12AT7 with less gain) input tubes. It comes with NOS tubes but I opted to use my own tubes which I had liked the best when tube rolling the MZ2. My amp is the new LTA Ultralinear.

The new preamp is absolutely an improvement over my MZ2 and combined with the LTA Ultralinear is an end-game speaker setup for me.


----------



## Thunder240

@mourip , thank you for the comparison! 

Are there any particular sonic attributes that the LTA Preamp does better than the MZ2, eg lower noise floor, wider/deeper sound stage, better imaging, faster dynamics, more euphonic, more neutral, etc?

Also, which version of the MZ2 do you have, and what power supply are you using?


----------



## mourip (Jul 27, 2018)

The second paragraph of my post pretty much sums up the differences. These are the areas where the MZ Pre really moves ahead.

I have the LTA MicroZOTL version 2 with the LPS. Not sure about minor versions as they are always making improvements. My v2 is about a year old.

The new preamp is better in about every area and it is much quieter.

Hope this helps. I will try to post more as I get more hours with it.


----------



## joed83

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/253609246535

I have this PSU and having just looked at the specs i saw it does 12v (ive been using it as a psu for a r2r unit @ 24v and its extremely good for the price )

I was thinking about switching it to 12v and powering up my microzotl 2.0 with it but now im not so sure if it would be suitable as i havent found the specs for the mzotl psu anywhere

Anyone able to say if it would be ok to go ahead with it? If it is compatable it would be a very cheap upgrade for anyone with the switching PSU.


----------



## mourip (Aug 18, 2018)

That PS is 15VA at 120v which I believe means that It probably only puts out ~1A or so at 12v. 

On the LTA web site it lists the SMPS power supply as 12v @ 2.5 amps. It is possible that the MZ2 requires less than that but the easy way to find out would be to email LTA using their website contact form. They are very responsive.


----------



## cridner93

I love everything about my MZ2 and LPS, have had it for about 7 months now with no issues.


----------



## mourip

cridner93 said:


> I love everything about my MZ2 and LPS, have had it for about 7 months now with no issues.



I replaced my MZ2/LPS with the new LTA MicroZOTL preamp. My plan was to sell the MZ2 to pay for the new pre but I like it so much that I kept it to use as my dedicated HP amp. I sold off an old SinglePower Extreme and a Tortuga Audio LDR preamp instead. LTA makes really sturdy, good sounding stuff. 

Don't forget to do a little tube rolling with the MZ2.


----------



## WNBC

Back with my favorite headphone amp   I'm on my 3rd MZ2, the current version after have owned the previous two variants of the MZ2.  This time I bought one used without the LPS, my first experience hearing a MZ2 without the LPS.  It is interesting to hear the MZ2 without the LPS.  Everything that I enjoy is there....transparency, resolution, lack of grain and tonality.  I do think the LPS adds those last touches of depth and punch.  I am holding back on my purchases otherwise I would add the LPS right away from LTA or maybe even Mojo Audio.  I do have a HDPLEX200 LPS that I will try with the MZ2 at some point soon.  

As for now I'm in between DACs and just supplying music via an old Oppo BDP-93.  I will be curious as to the synergy between the MZ2 and DX200.  Definitely will give that a shot as well.


----------



## drbluenewmexico (Jan 10, 2019)

Mojo Audio power supplies give the MZ2 the punch and clarity they need to be truly world class performer!  worth checking out,.  i use mine
as preamp in my main audio system to drive custom Magnaplanars, and it is hallucinagenic sound....


----------



## mourip

I have now moved to the new LTA Preamp for my speaker system. I worked with Mark at LTA during the last stage of it's development. It is really a big jump past the MZ2 with LPS. 

I was going to sell my MZ2 to pay for the preamp but decided to keep it for my HP system. For me the LTA equipment is end game quality. 

BTW. Tube rolling can make a big difference.


----------



## WNBC (Jan 15, 2019)

I never tube rolled with my previous MZ2s but this one has a GE 12AT7 tube that is producing a lot of static/crackling noises.  When I switched the left and right 12AT7 tubes the static also switched so I'm pretty sure it is just a single tube.

I was all set on getting a new matched pair of 12AT7 (Mullard or maybe Siemens) but then I started thinking about 6201.  I usually buy from the biggie tube chains but don't see a good selection of these 6201.  Where do most people buy them?  Ebay?  I have a local store I am going to check out tomorrow and see what they have for 12AT7/6201.  I currently have installed a pair of RCA 12SN7 but not looking to change those around for a while unless people feel the 6201 is better matched with the 6SN7.  I primarily use Grados, Focal Clear and iBasso SR1.  Nothing too power hungry.  Might throw in a HD800S down the road.

As a sidenote:  I am using the HDPLEX200 and it is working great with the MZ2 albeit its been a year from my last MZ2 w/ LPS+ so I can't really comment on differences.  But, over the stock power supply there is an added weight to the notes.  A meatier presentation with authority is how I would describe it.

EDIT:  Only JJ 12AT7s at my local shop.  Going to order some Mullards and GE 6201.

There is an original MicroZ on Ebay selling for $1700.  Fun to see what the original looked like.  If cheaper I would love to compare it to the existing one.  Seems a bit high if the current MicroZ is an overall better unit.


----------



## mourip

I have been using 7062s and like them a lot. Less gain than a 12AT7. I use 14N7 loctal output tubes with a loctal adapter. These are 12v 7N7's which is an early 6SN7.

BTW. It looks like LTA has an MZ3 out now...


----------



## viggen (Mar 12, 2019)

Finally get to join the club.  Received a brand new unused second hand unit.  Previous owner bought it then sold it without ever using it.

Mine is a MZ2 w/ LPS+.  I don't know what tubes are in there yet but is supposed to be the NOS option.

I am only on the first hour and waiting for it to burn in some more.  So far, the amp it's supposed to be replacing sounds better as a speaker amp and is killing the MZ2 as a headphone amp.
https://www.head-fi.org/posts/14833078/edit
I am sure this will change after 50-100 hours... patience.. I've waited many many years to finally try out the Microzotl ever since I first read about it on audiogon and here.  Yes, I waited more than a decade to try this out... why can't I wait a few more weeks for it to burn in .. haha


----------



## WNBC

Congratulations.  

Additional burn-in will help.  Out of curiosity what is the speaker/headphone amp you are replacing with the MZ2?  

What headphones are you using?    




viggen said:


> Finally get to join the club.  Received a brand new unused second hand unit.  Previous owner bought it then sold it without ever using it.
> 
> Mine is a MZ2 w/ LPS+.  I don't know what tubes are in there yet but is supposed to be the NOS option.
> 
> ...


----------



## viggen

WNBC said:


> Congratulations.
> 
> Additional burn-in will help.  Out of curiosity what is the speaker/headphone amp you are replacing with the MZ2?
> 
> What headphones are you using?



Amp is Fisher KT100.  Headphone is HAFXT90 iems.  Also have a pair of HD58X but it's at work.  If I remember to bring it home tonight...


----------



## mourip

viggen said:


> Amp is Fisher KT100.  Headphone is HAFXT90 iems.  Also have a pair of HD58X but it's at work.  If I remember to bring it home tonight...



I would not give it a thought before 100 hours. Also tubes make a really big difference ...and not all NOS tubes are created equal. I use 7N7s(6SN7) with loctal adapters and 7062(12AT7) as the driver tubes.

I use HD650 and 800S with it for great results.

I do not think that being used as a speaker amp is it's forte unless you have *very* efficient speakers of 97db or greater in a near-field config..


----------



## WNBC

I know there is some burn-in at the manufacturer and I don't recall how long it took for it to become amazing.....but it will eventually reach that status.  I'll second the HD800S on the MZ2 is killer.  Probably the best I've heard the HD800S.  @viggen, bring that HD58X home to hear on the MZ2!


----------



## viggen (Mar 14, 2019)

mourip said:


> I would not give it a thought before 100 hours. Also tubes make a really big difference ...and not all NOS tubes are created equal. I use 7N7s(6SN7) with loctal adapters and 7062(12AT7) as the driver tubes.
> 
> I use HD650 and 800S with it for great results.
> 
> I do not think that being used as a speaker amp is it's forte unless you have *very* efficient speakers of 97db or greater in a near-field config..



Yup I know about the burn in.  Just expressing my eagerness to get pass this stage.  And, will do some rolling after the amp has settled. 

And, it would suck if the amp's forte are not for speakers as that's how I intend to use it 90% of the time with my 99db Altecs.  The amp that the Fisher replaced was also 1wpc and never turned the attenuator past midnight.


----------



## viggen (Mar 14, 2019)

WNBC said:


> I know there is some burn-in at the manufacturer and I don't recall how long it took for it to become amazing.....but it will eventually reach that status.  I'll second the HD800S on the MZ2 is killer.  Probably the best I've heard the HD800S.  @viggen, bring that HD58X home to hear on the MZ2!



I read the burn in is 60-70 hours at factory somewhere.  I did bring the HD58X home last night.  After the second hour mark, the sound is rather decent.  Since I uninstalled my Fisher, I can't A/B it with the Microzotl.  However, my dac, Metrum Amethyst, has headphone out.  And, during the hour I A/B'd last night, I can hear how the Microzotl gradually catch up to the sound coming out of the Metrum's headphone out.

I left the music playing when I left for work this morning.  So, there should be another 10 hours of burn by the time I get home.

However, listening to the HD58X at work right now, I can say the Microzotl has a lot of catching up to do.  The 58X seems to have some magical synergy with the APPJ amp I have at work.


----------



## WNBC (Apr 3, 2019)

It's a good test to see if you come around to the MZ2 as a top-notch amp.  I don't recall my initial reaction with little burn-in to the MZ2 but I've plenty of equipment that I made complete turnaround on after a period of break-in.  Even so, the 58X may have some good synergy with the APPJ. 

Definitely try a little tube rolling when you can.  No rush.  I'm using the stock NOS RCA 12SN7 + GE 6201 5-star tubes.  I have a pair of 12AT7 Mullards to try and a set of Sylvania chrome dome 6SN7GTA coming from Brent Jesse. 

Looking forward to your opinion of the MZ2 in about a week or so.




viggen said:


> However, listening to the HD58X at work right now, I can say the Microzotl *has a lot of catching up to do.*  The 58X seems to have some magical synergy with the APPJ amp I have at work.


----------



## viggen

Notes after 24 hours.  

There were many things that didn't work for me during the first couple of hours.  There is a glassiness to the sound which I've heard before in other tube amps that were shipped with Chinese tubes.  There's no "bite" to the sound as if the highs, mids and lows weren't aligned.  Human voices sounded distant as if every vocal I listened to is washed out like the Portlandia theme music.

I've left the amp on for over the past 24 hours straight streaming Tidal tracks and took some time to take a listen as well as doing some component swap to try to discern any differences.  

First thing is the glassiness has subsided quite a bit but still a hint of it there.  Human voices still sounds a bit super natural to me.  The bass is a bit annoying as if there's a slight distortion the kind that causes the ear a bit of discomfort.  

So, I took the Grundig muVac out of storage and plugged it in as amp and MZ2 as preamp.  The sound coming out of this combo is simply beautiful.  As if the short comings of both amps suddenly dissipated.  muVac sounded a bit lifeless and tiny bit grainy on its own now has more weight behind each note and increases in something I cannot explain other than clarity.  Yes, it's like putting on a pair of glasses that allows you to see the world more clear.  

Then, I removed the MZ2 from the chain and used muVac as integrated amp, sure enough, it's the same sound I remembered but lacking in clarity and tone the MZ2 provided.  Then, I went back to using the MZ2 as integrated amp, and, has the tone but sound is still a bit smeared.  

I think I prefer the MZ2/muVac combo over the Fisher KT100.  But, that's more components and money.  Further, one reason I wanted to the MZ2 is for its preout to hook up a sub.  And, I wouldn't be able to do that if I use MZ2 as preamp instead of integrated amp.

One more note of observation.  One of the favorite amps I've had was the 47 Labs Gaincard.  I loved that amp for both its sound and aesthetics as well as how it changed my approach to achieving the sound I wanted.  Eventually I replaced it with the muVac.  I was happy but always missed the GC's ability to be both clear and lack of flavor (but it had this coldness in its sound which drove to me try out tube amps).  The MZ2/muVac combo really reminds me of that trait but sans the coldness.


----------



## mourip

viggen said:


> Further, one reason I wanted to the MZ2 is for its preout to hook up a sub.  And, I wouldn't be able to do that if I use MZ2 as preamp instead of integrated amp



Before I bought the new LTA MicroZotl Preamp for my speaker system I used my MZ2 as a preamp with an amp and two powered subs. 

I just put an RCA splitter on the pre-outs. The output impedance is so low that it handles it easily...


----------



## viggen

mourip said:


> Before I bought the new LTA MicroZotl Preamp for my speaker system I used my MZ2 as a preamp with an amp and two powered subs.
> 
> I just put an RCA splitter on the pre-outs. The output impedance is so low that it handles it easily...



I used to use Khozmo preamp to split signal.  Even at 5k ohm output, there was still degradation to the sound.  I thought using a splitter would yield the same result.  But, I could give the splitter you linked a try.  Thanks for the suggestion.


----------



## m-i-c-k-e-y

@mourip

Sorry if have been asked already, have you compared already the HP out of your MicroZotl Preamp to your MZ2? Impressions?

Thanks!


----------



## mourip

m-i-c-k-e-y said:


> @mourip
> 
> Sorry if have been asked already, have you compared already the HP out of your MicroZotl Preamp to your MZ2? Impressions?
> 
> Thanks!



To be honest I have not spent much time using the HP output on my LTA preamp. For headphone listening I have a separate rig in my home office space. 

I will give it a try and report back but it will be a bit like apples to oranges since the two systems have different front ends.


----------



## m-i-c-k-e-y

Thanks no problem Bro. 

Went to the MicroZotl 3 thread. And had more or  less the answers there.

Enjoy your Preamp!


----------



## viggen

mourip said:


> I use 7N7s(6SN7) with loctal adapters and 7062(12AT7) as the driver tubes.



You're obviously using them just fine.. but wanna ask whether there is any clearance issue with the 7N7s with the loctal adapters?


----------



## mourip (Apr 15, 2019)

With my MZ Preamp I worked with Mark at LTA so that the tall 7062s would clear. He made a slight change in the production top plate. For the 14N7s with adapters the holes in the top were fine already.

For my MZ2 I easily drilled out two 1.5" holes in the acrylic top plate to allow my 7N7s with adapters to work. LTA now sells a drilled plate as an accessory so this is not a problem. My 7062s clear in the MZ2 regardless.

Best,

Paul


----------



## freesole

Has anyone heard this in comparison to the Feliks Euforia? Interested to hear your thoughts as I am looking to pair a tube amp with my Mytek Brooklyn +


----------



## viggen

Quick update.  The MZ2 has been sounding very good.  But, I've been very impatient in getting it to sound good.  So, I didn't really let it fully burn in before I started messing around with my system.  

Since my last update, I've done these.:

1) Replaced 12SN7 Honeywell with 12SX7GT RCA
2) Replaced Tung Sol 12AT7 New Stock with 12AT7WA Sylvania
3) Replaced all detachable powercords in my system with Oyaide Tunami
4) Applied the Hammond 193m choke tweak

Result.

Focus.  Information snapped in place.  Detail, Information snapped in place.  Bass, much stronger and enveloping.  I think someone explained a sort of submarine sound in a post much earlier in this thread.  That's what I am getting now.  The bass is submersing me.  And, there is a certain mellow halo surrounding the sound now especially after the choke tweak.  Maybe the mellowness is noticeable now because the annoying high frequency emi is removed.  You know the sound that is barely noticeable but irritates the ear.  This is removed.  

Anyways, I am happy with the MZ2 for now as a standalone amp.  But, I had to do a lot of treatments to my system to get here.


----------



## myphone

freesole said:


> Has anyone heard this in comparison to the Feliks Euforia? Interested to hear your thoughts as I am looking to pair a tube amp with my Mytek Brooklyn +



I have both MZ2 and Euforia. Even thought both are OTL, Euforia is for high impedance phones (Senn and Beyerdynamics), MZ2 has higher power output at lower impedance. 

For Senn HD 600/800 and Beyer T1), Euforia has much better control. MZ2 works with lower impedance phones (Senn HD58X and Fortex).


----------



## Ciggavelli

I have a question about comparisons.  I currently have a Hugo 2 going into my MZ2 as a dac.  It took me a while before I started to get happy with the MZ2 I have.  I put in the NOS 12v tubes and made sure to put both jumpers in their place.  I'm getting close to the bass I want (I'm a bit of a bass head).  I'm also looking to have as much clarity as possible, so I also just picked up a Hugo M-Scaler, which should be coming next week.  So, my string is PC with Tidal HiFi > Hugo 2 > Chord (company) interconnects > MicroZOTL MZ2 (newest edition) > Lazuli Reference DanaCables cables > Focal Utopia.  

With the M-Scaler coming next week, I was wondering if I should replace my hugo 2 with a Chord Qutest, to take advantage of the dual BNC connections and then sending the Qutest to my MZ2.  This got me thinking, maybe I should replace the MZ2 with a Hugo TT2, and skip the Qutest dac altogether.

So, for all you that have heard the Chord Hugo TT2, how does it sound compared to the MZ2? Is it worth replacing the MZ2?


----------



## joed83

viggen said:


> 4) Applied the Hammond 193m choke tweak



Can you share the details of this? I've done a few searches but came up with nothing...

Cheers


----------



## viggen (Jun 3, 2019)

joed83 said:


> Can you share the details of this? I've done a few searches but came up with nothing...
> 
> Cheers



Check here.

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=50343.0
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=130672.0


----------



## joed83

viggen said:


> Check here.
> 
> https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=50343.0
> https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=130672.0


Many thanks!


----------



## funkle II

Has anyone tried a Denafrips Ares or other R2R DAC with their MS2? I’m wondering how these pair.


----------



## funkle II

This may be more of a general question, but I've pretty much stopped using my other amps since getting the MZ2, because it is simply better with all my headphones. I have a THX AAA789, Violectric V200 and a Burson Conductor. I sort of feel I should keep them around, just in case I need the extra wattage or cleanliness of the THX, or the smaller size of the Violectric in a 2nd system somewhere. But the question is, do you keep stuff like this around when you have something that obviates the need for the other stuff?


----------



## mourip

funkle II said:


> This may be more of a general question, but I've pretty much stopped using my other amps since getting the MZ2, because it is simply better with all my headphones. I have a THX AAA789, Violectric V200 and a Burson Conductor. I sort of feel I should keep them around, just in case I need the extra wattage or cleanliness of the THX, or the smaller size of the Violectric in a 2nd system somewhere. But the question is, do you keep stuff like this around when you have something that obviates the need for the other stuff?



I usually keep what I like best and sell off the rest to finance the next "best" thing 

I have an MZ2 and the LTA preamp and cannot imagine replacing them. I now focus on my front end.


----------



## paulybatz

So..:I was pointed in this direction instead of a WA6SE...seems y’all are into it. 
Thoughts 
Anyone have a heddphone???


----------



## mourip

Probably all of us. I have an LTA MZ2 and use my Senn 800S's with it. I use Tungsol round plate 12SN7s.

My LTA preamp is just used for my speaker system.


----------



## paulybatz

mourip said:


> Probably all of us. I have an LTA MZ2 and use my Senn 800S's with it. I use Tungsol round plate 12SN7s.
> 
> My LTA preamp is just used for my speaker system.


Lol. I’m talking Hedd AMT
https://www.hedd.audio/en/heddphone/


----------



## mourip

Ha! I assumed a typo...

I wonder if one watt would be enough for those at 87db?


----------



## paulybatz

Right.  I don’t think so...that’s the issue 
Finding a good amp to complement


----------



## mourip

How about a speaker amp like one of the Pass Labs First Watt amps like the SIT2 or one of the Linear Tube Audio EL84 amps?


----------



## paulybatz

I’m going with a Shiiit Jot now...then...we will see.
Thank you 
This forum is amazing and everyone here has been so so helpful!


----------



## E-norm

Have anyone tried this amp with the Meze Empyrean? I'm torn between this one and the Elise/Euforia.


----------



## davide256 (Apr 26, 2020)

I've had my MZ2 now since 2015, for tube complement I've settled on Telefunken 12AT7 and new generation Tungsol 6SN7GTB for best transients and dynamics. 
I highly recommend the Uptone Audio JS2 for it's power supply which is allowing me to run Magnepan 1.7's off the speaker taps in a 12x12 room...the earlier power supplies I had just weren't good enough vs using 50/100 amplifiers connected 
to the MZ2 but with the JS2 I can hear how badly the 100W amp veils details when I put it in circuit... prior power supplies were SoTM SPS500, HDPlex 100W, HDPlex200W


----------



## funkle II

Any chance someone can give me a little guidance on tube rolling? I've gathered a list of some of the tubes that have been mentioned here, but never done any rolling, and don't really know where to start. My MZ2 has the stock upgraded tubes. I'm very happy with the current sound, but no hurt in experimenting. 

If it helps to know my tastes: like a thick, juicy, dynamic, punchy sound with an emphasis on foot-tapping musicality for the hard driving jazz/rock fusion I listen to. I'd probably stay away from anything either too clinical or romantic, and would take punch & focus over a wide soundstage.


----------



## saidentary

Quick update: The new Verite Closed Headphones from ZMF sound *phenomenal* through the MicroZOTL 2.


----------



## llamacans

saidentary said:


> Quick update: The new Verite Closed Headphones from ZMF sound *phenomenal* through the MicroZOTL 2.


I just got a pair of VCs and I'm looking for a good tube amp to go with it. Do you have the MZ2 with LPS or with the stock switching PSU?


----------



## saidentary (Aug 4, 2020)

llamacans said:


> I just got a pair of VCs and I'm looking for a good tube amp to go with it. Do you have the MZ2 with LPS or with the stock switching PSU?


I got my MicroZOTL 2 back in 2015 (serial number 0007) and it still has the stock, switching power supply.  The Verite Closed headphones sound absolutely fabulous with the MicroZOTL 2 and the stock power supply.  Credible people have said that the LPS makes the MicroZOTL 2 sound even better, and I don't doubt it. Nevertheless, the switching PSU has always sounded so good to me that I've never even bothered to audition the LPS. Maybe some day I will, but I'm in no big hurry. 

Bottom line for you: Although the LPS is almost certainly superior to the switching power supply, it's extremely unlikely that you'll be anything other than floored by the sound of the VC paired with the MicroZOTL 2, irrespective of which power supply you choose.


----------



## llamacans

saidentary said:


> I got my MicroZOTL 2 back in 2015 (serial number 0007) and it still has the stock, switching power supply.  The Verite Closed headphones sound absolutely fabulous with the MicroZOTL 2 and the stock power supply.  Credible people have said that the LPS makes the MicroZOTL 2 sound even better, and I don't doubt it. Nevertheless, the switching PSU has always sounded so good to me that I've never even bothered to audition the LPS. Maybe some day I will, but I'm in no big hurry.
> 
> Bottom line for you: Although the LPS is almost certainly superior to the switching power supply, it's extremely unlikely that you'll be anything other than floored by the sound of the VC paired with the MicroZOTL 2, irrespective of which power supply you choose.


Thanks, you've definitely convinced me to get the MicroZOTL 2!


----------



## saidentary (Aug 5, 2020)

llamacans said:


> Thanks, you've definitely convinced me to get the MicroZOTL 2!


Prediction: You'll _*love*_ the sound of the VC with the MicroZOTL 2, regardless of which power source you choose. {Zach (creator and owner of ZMF Headphones) told me that it would match well with the VC, and he was wonderfully correct.}

p.s. I'd love to read your impressions (good or bad) after you get to hear that combination.


----------



## Kermy

llamacans said:


> I just got a pair of VCs and I'm looking for a good tube amp to go with it. Do you have the MZ2 with LPS or with the stock switching PSU?



Good choices!


----------



## saidentary (Aug 5, 2020)

funkle II said:


> Any chance someone can give me a little guidance on tube rolling? I've gathered a list of some of the tubes that have been mentioned here, but never done any rolling, and don't really know where to start. My MZ2 has the stock upgraded tubes. I'm very happy with the current sound, but no hurt in experimenting.
> 
> If it helps to know my tastes: like a thick, juicy, dynamic, punchy sound with an emphasis on foot-tapping musicality for the hard driving jazz/rock fusion I listen to. I'd probably stay away from anything either too clinical or romantic, and would take punch & focus over a wide soundstage.


Maybe you've already read his posts, but @jamato8 seems to revel in tube rolling and appears (to me at least) to be a high master of MicroZOTL 2 tube rolling. I'd read his posts on that topic and if you wanted more info then perhaps consider contacting him. You could also ask the kind and knowledgeable folks at Linear Tube Audio.


----------



## MMK7913

Hi - long time lurker here. This is a loooong thread so I hope it’s OK I just ask for advice out of the blue: I have the MZ2 with the LPS which I use with the Hugo2Go. In almost every way this is endgame for me. But.......sometimes I would like a little more , richness, body, palpability, bloom even. This is with both my headphones (HD650, LCD-X, Aeon 2 Closed) and my speakers, a pair of Omega Super Alnico High Output Monitors. So here’s the question: how do I get more richness without sacrificing all the stuff (resolution, transparency)  this combo does so incredibly well?

I guess it a question of tube-rolling, which I know nothing about, or a new DAC. So new DAC: not more than 2000$ and with a more full-bodied sound and with no hit to resolution? Denafrips, Schiit, MHDT? Used market is fine. I have an extra streamer, the Node 2i, laying around. Any advice is greatly appreciated. 

Thank you


----------



## viggen

MMK7913 said:


> Hi - long time lurker here. This is a loooong thread so I hope it’s OK I just ask for advice out of the blue: I have the MZ2 with the LPS which I use with the Hugo2Go. In almost every way this is endgame for me. But.......sometimes I would like a little more , richness, body, palpability, bloom even. This is with both my headphones (HD650, LCD-X, Aeon 2 Closed) and my speakers, a pair of Omega Super Alnico High Output Monitors. So here’s the question: how do I get more richness without sacrificing all the stuff (resolution, transparency)  this combo does so incredibly well?
> 
> I guess it a question of tube-rolling, which I know nothing about, or a new DAC. So new DAC: not more than 2000$ and with a more full-bodied sound and with no hit to resolution? Denafrips, Schiit, MHDT? Used market is fine. I have an extra streamer, the Node 2i, laying around. Any advice is greatly appreciated.
> 
> Thank you


https://tubeworldexpress.com/products/jan-crc-12sx7gt-rca-nos-1955


----------



## MMK7913

viggen said:


> https://tubeworldexpress.com/products/jan-crc-12sx7gt-rca-nos-1955



Thank you. That’s very helpful


----------



## Maelob

Ready to pull the trigger to drive my Aoen2c and Ananda headphones - heard nothing but great things about this amp.


----------



## veloaudio

Maelob said:


> Ready to pull the trigger to drive my Aoen2c and Ananda headphones - heard nothing but great things about this amp.



Go for it. Love mine. LTA has excellent customer service too.


----------



## viggen

has anyone replaced the fuse inside either the amp or the lps?  according to manual, there is a single 2.5a fb and two 1.25a sb.  want to try out some audiophile fuses.  

without actually opening the case up, i don't see where the fuse is on the audio board through the plexi glass.  where is the fuse?


----------



## soundchaos

For those that picked up the MZ2, still liking it with your ZMF’s? Looking for a good tube amp to pair with my VO’s and Aeolus...seeing a lot of praise for the MZ2, but there are so many amp choices


----------



## veloaudio

Can’t go wrong with the MZ2. Contact LTA as they might have a demo/trade-in for purchase and you can save some money. That s what I did and I can’t be happier with my MZ2/VC pairing


----------



## tunes

veloaudio said:


> Can’t go wrong with the MZ2. Contact LTA as they might have a demo/trade-in for purchase and you can save some money. That s what I did and I can’t be happier with my MZ2/VC pairing


Has anyone compared the MZ2 with the Quicksilver HP amp???


----------



## soundchaos

veloaudio said:


> Can’t go wrong with the MZ2. Contact LTA as they might have a demo/trade-in for purchase and you can save some money. That s what I did and I can’t be happier with my MZ2/VC pairing


Thanks! Lovely setup. I’ll send them an email and see about discounted units. Thanks for the tip!


----------



## skhan007

Hey guys, I thought I'd collect some opinions here from the MZ2 owners. Background: I'm local to LTA and have been to their shop numerous times and bought two sets of headphones from them. They are about the nicest bunch of guys I've met in the industry, incredibly helpful, and they know their stuff like nobody's business. 

I was there about two weeks ago and bought my ZMF Auteur. I brought my RME ADI-2 DAC and listened to both the MZ2 and MZ3. Having heard the MZ2 a few times in the past, it continues to resonate with me as an incredible amp. I also like the idea of supporting a local business, which is another reason they are topping my list of potential tube amp purchases (other contenders recommended to me are the Bottlehead, Woo WA3, Liquid Platinum and solid state contenders are the Burson Soloist and Singxer SA1). Right now, I'm listening to my ZMF cans through my RME DAC/amp. 

I've considered it for sometime, but was not sure about it's size for a desktop set up. In addition, I was curious about the power supply and where that would fit. Curious how you guys have made the MZ2 work in your space? Did you get the 4ft cable for the power supply and put that on the floor or behind your desk?


----------



## soundchaos

Hoping someone can chime in as I have the exact same question about desktop use/fit especially with the power supply. I’m looking to do the same thing and use it with my ZMF’s.


----------



## veloaudio

I believe LTA will make a longer cable than 4’ for the LPS+. The MZ2 amp itself is a smaller size and rather light so it should be easy to place on or next to a source in a desktop system. With a longer cable the LPS could then be placed on the floor.


----------



## Maelob

phoenixbt said:


> Hoping someone can chime in as I have the exact same question about desktop use/fit especially with the power supply. I’m looking to do the same thing and use it with my ZMF’s.


Unless you have a super tall desk you can put the power supply on the floor.


----------



## soundchaos

veloaudio said:


> I believe LTA will make a longer cable than 4’ for the LPS+. The MZ2 amp itself is a smaller size and rather light so it should be easy to place on or next to a source in a desktop system. With a longer cable the LPS could then be placed on the floor.


Yup...confirmed. They'll do it on the standard power supply too. I just reached out to them and put in an order and they are going to build mine with an 8ft cable. So definitely drop them a note if you're looking for a longer cord.

Thanks for all the advice everyone...can't wait for this to arrive!


----------



## m-i-c-k-e-y

Don't know if this was brought up. But for *EU* folks, you can get you're LTA products thru Mikael at https://www.lineartubeaudio.eu/

I am in EU and Nicholas of LTA channeled me to them when I was inquiring for a MZ3.


----------



## saidentary

phoenixbt said:


> Yup...confirmed. They'll do it on the standard power supply too. I just reached out to them and put in an order and they are going to build mine with an 8ft cable. So definitely drop them a note if you're looking for a longer cord.
> 
> Thanks for all the advice everyone...can't wait for this to arrive!


Sorry I'm late for this. I have the MicroZOTL 2 with its original switching power supply. Haven't even bothered to upgrade the power supply after purchase of unit serial number 0007 in 2015. I absolutely positively love it with the Verite Closed. I've commented extensively about it on the VC thread.


----------



## okplayer

Curious about power cords for the mz2 power supply do people just use the stock one?


----------



## veloaudio

I use the Audioquest NRG-4


----------



## Maelob (Apr 17, 2021)

There are dozens of brands out there to match your budget. I use  Zu Audio and wireworld, but honestly any power cable from a reputable company will do. And some would tell you just keep stock cable so it’s up to you


----------



## saidentary

phoenixbt said:


> Yup...confirmed. They'll do it on the standard power supply too. I just reached out to them and put in an order and they are going to build mine with an 8ft cable. So definitely drop them a note if you're looking for a longer cord.
> 
> Thanks for all the advice everyone...can't wait for this to arrive!


Is it there yet? If so, do you like it?


----------



## Nostoi

Looking at this amp as an alternative to my Sparkos SS amp. Am I right in thinking it pairs nicely with ZMF VC? Anyone also using Hugo 2 as a source?


----------



## saidentary

Nostoi said:


> Looking at this amp as an alternative to my Sparkos SS amp. Am I right in thinking it pairs nicely with ZMF VC? Anyone also using Hugo 2 as a source?


Speaking as an *owner of this combination*, in my opinion it *pairs spectacularly well with the Verite Closed* headphone!!! I've posted very extensively on the VC thread.


----------



## Maelob

Nostoi said:


> Looking at this amp as an alternative to my Sparkos SS amp. Am I right in thinking it pairs nicely with ZMF VC? Anyone also using Hugo 2 as a source?


LTA uses ZMF headphones to demo their gear


----------



## Nostoi

saidentary said:


> Speaking as an *owner of this combination*, in my opinion it *pairs spectacularly well with the Verite Closed* headphone!!! I've posted very extensively on the VC thread.





Maelob said:


> LTA uses ZMF headphones to demo their gear


Thanks folks. I look forward to demoing next week. The amp has been on my radar since it came out, so I'm surprised it took this long to give it a go. 

One facile question - can someone take a photo of the top of it at night/in dark? I want to see how much glow the tubes emit, if indeed any. Thanks!


----------



## Nostoi

About to order one of these, can someone tell me - is there any difference between the latest iteration with the previous one other than more RCA connections and the possibility of a remote controlled volume?


----------



## saidentary

Nostoi said:


> About to order one of these, can someone tell me - is there any difference between the latest iteration with the previous one other than more RCA connections and the possibility of a remote controlled volume?


I don't know for sure. I'm quite confident that if you *contact them directly* they'll give you a truthful answer.


----------



## viggen

I replaced some components on my audio pc and, as result, I can no longer use my 12v 3amp r-core lpsu and, instead, am using a 12v 6amp laptop ac adapter.  So, I had frown face.  Now, with a spare LPSU, I decided to use it on the MZ2 in place of the LPS+ psu.  

After a few listening, I do find the sound to suit my taste better.  The sound is less linear leaning on the warmer side.  There are other positives that's hard to put into words.  The detail level is the same but is delivered slightly differently.  Anyways, wondering whether others have replaced the LPS+ and what your experiences are.   I know there were some who has done this before the LPS+'s advent with Mojo psu amongst others but this was few years ago.


----------



## Nostoi

saidentary said:


> I don't know for sure. I'm quite confident that if you *contact them directly* they'll give you a truthful answer.


Thanks, I did contact them and heard back minutes later. Impressive. They guided me here.


----------



## saidentary (Jul 20, 2021)

Nostoi said:


> Thanks, I did contact them and heard back minutes later. Impressive. They guided me here.


That's good news. Also keep in mind that the unit I'm so impressed by is one of the very first they released to consumers, with serial number 0007. It has the original circuit configuration and had the original switching power supply. I've never had the unit itself upgraded, because it already sounds so great. Only very recently did I upgrade the power supply to the LPS+, and even that was done basically because I was already in the process of upgrading the power supplies on my Arcam irDAC and Project CD Box S. I figured I might as well upgrade the power supply on the MicroZOTL 2.0 at the same time.  But I did that only after having the original power supply for 5+ years. The point is that the unit already sounded fantastic in its original form over 5 years ago, and presumably has only gotten better.

I predict that you'll be absolutely _*stunned*_ by how great it sounds with the Verite Closed.


----------



## Uguccione

Recent owner of this amp. Of course, those who expect a tube sound, perhaps "old style", are blown away. I come from a rather dynamic solid state (Questyle) and I hardly noticed the change, except for the noticeably more genuine, healthy, plausible (or similar to real) tone, which - in my opinion - is what really makes the difference between tubes and solid state.
Over time I will also try some valve changes; for the moment I can say that the combination with the HD-800 is in the long run a bit tiring. Nice eh, crazy detail, but tiring.
Instead I found an unexpected synergy with the AQ Nighthawk (I hope I put all the Hs in the right place): this amp opens them in a surprising way; perhaps only the slightly out of control bass typical of the Nighthawk remains, but the mid and high range are the best I've ever heard coming out of these headphones.


----------



## Uguccione

Replace the stock (Genalex) driver tubes with two Mullard NOS and here I found nirvana for the HD800.  The sound has softened a lot, acquiring further in musicality.  The bass is now powerful, never heard the Senny playing with so much body.  All without losing a comma in detail, transparency, etc ...
 In short, they are other headphones (or is it another amplifier 😄).
 Those who sold it to me told me not to waste time (and money) with updating the power supply: the tube change affects much more on the sound and much less on the wallet.


----------



## jonathan c

Uguccione said:


> Replace the stock (Genalex) driver tubes with two Mullard NOS and here I found nirvana for the HD800.  The sound has softened a lot, acquiring further in musicality.  The bass is now powerful, never heard the Senny playing with so much body.  All without losing a comma in detail, transparency, etc ...
> In short, they are other headphones (or is it another amplifier 😄).
> Those who sold it to me told me not to waste time (and money) with updating the power supply: the tube change affects much more on the sound and much less on the wallet.


Do not underestimate the importance of the power supply. The largest _initial _effect on the sound may come from a tube change, but each tube and a change from it will have its performance dictated by the quality of the power supply.


----------



## Uguccione

In fact, sooner or later I'll fall for it 😅 However, at the moment, the result satisfies me a lot.


----------



## Fried dr

I have a used mz2 on the way, which I purchased a couple days ago here on Head Fi. Never heard it before.  I have sold my Mytek Brooklyn DAC+ because I got sick of it as a DAC and HP amp. The DAC was too bright for me on my speakers, and I wasn't satisfied with the imaging as a HP amp or on speakers. Now I need a DAC to pair with the Microzotl. The rest of my system is highly resolving (amphion argon s speakers, Mytek Brookln Amp + amps running as monoblocks, SOTM SMS-200 Ultra neo streamer), so I feel I need a DAC that's not squeegee clean or bright.  Something warm yet completely low res scares me. I'm scared to pull the trigger on a Border Patrol - will it be to low res for my taste?? I need a small form factor - all my components are under 11" wide.   What about MDHT labs - I see almost no reviews on line for them.  Any advice?  Soekris?  Ares ii?


----------



## veloaudio

Congrats on the MZ2. I love mine.


----------



## viggen

Fried dr said:


> I have a used mz2 on the way, which I purchased a couple days ago here on Head Fi. Never heard it before.  I have sold my Mytek Brooklyn DAC+ because I got sick of it as a DAC and HP amp. The DAC was too bright for me on my speakers, and I wasn't satisfied with the imaging as a HP amp or on speakers. Now I need a DAC to pair with the Microzotl. The rest of my system is highly resolving (amphion argon s speakers, Mytek Brookln Amp + amps running as monoblocks, SOTM SMS-200 Ultra neo streamer), so I feel I need a DAC that's not squeegee clean or bright.  Something warm yet completely low res scares me. I'm scared to pull the trigger on a Border Patrol - will it be to low res for my taste?? I need a small form factor - all my components are under 11" wide.   What about MDHT labs - I see almost no reviews on line for them.  Any advice?  Soekris?  Ares ii?


Border Patrol has a return policy or you can buy a second hand one and sell it if you don't like it.  I bought a second hand SEi to compare against D90 MQA and kept the D90. Also compared D90 against Pegasus and SDA6 and stuck with D90.


----------



## Maelob

Fried dr said:


> I have a used mz2 on the way, which I purchased a couple days ago here on Head Fi. Never heard it before.  I have sold my Mytek Brooklyn DAC+ because I got sick of it as a DAC and HP amp. The DAC was too bright for me on my speakers, and I wasn't satisfied with the imaging as a HP amp or on speakers. Now I need a DAC to pair with the Microzotl. The rest of my system is highly resolving (amphion argon s speakers, Mytek Brookln Amp + amps running as monoblocks, SOTM SMS-200 Ultra neo streamer), so I feel I need a DAC that's not squeegee clean or bright.  Something warm yet completely low res scares me. I'm scared to pull the trigger on a Border Patrol - will it be to low res for my taste?? I need a small form factor - all my components are under 11" wide.   What about MDHT labs - I see almost no reviews on line for them.  Any advice?  Soekris?  Ares ii?


I like the Schiit Bitfrost 2, it is very musical, not bright at all. Aries ii is another good option around the same price.


----------



## Fried dr

I'm thinking about a smallish speaker that could be driven by my 1 watt mz2 or if that's not realistic then an mz10.  It seems like sensitive speakers tend to need to be large, but I don't have floor space.  How about a Tekton Lore Reference?  Only 96db...


----------



## mbyrnes

I should hook my MZ2 up to my Tekton Moab speakers. They're high efficiency (stated 98dB), so might be a fun experiment. Would be comical looking, as the amp is so small next to the speakers.


----------



## Fried dr

zach915m said:


> So I haven't really been able to compare all my amps because of holiday obligations and orders etc etc, but I did get back yesterday and did some rolling with the tubes I bought.
> 
> I acquired:
> 
> ...


----------



## Fried dr

zach915m said:


> Yeah definitely, actually probably better to do one at a time so you can really see what each tube set does. I got my 5 sets of tubes in, two were 6sn7's (the big ones) and three were 12AT7's (the smaller tubes in the ZOTL) and I had to sit there for over an hour swapping in and out and waiting 5 minutes in between swaps per the manual to test out each variation and the changes both singularly with each set of tubes and then in combinations. It was brain melting!


Hi I'm new to Microzotl.  Would someone mind explaining what the difference in function is between the two big tubes and the two smaller tubes?  Which ones to try rolling and why?  Sorry for the beginner question...


----------



## mourip

The small 12AT7 tubes are for signal input and phase splitting. They increase the input voltage and then split one half of the alternating(+/-) signal to each half of one of the output tubes. 

The bigger tubes are the output tubes. Each output tube has two sections that work in a push/pull arrangement. They take the input voltage and turn it into current(power) to drive the headphones or another amp or a speaker. The amp turns high voltage/low current to low voltage/high current.

Changing any of those tubes will affect the sound. The nice thing about the MZ2 is that you can use either 6SN7 or 12SN7 (and variants) by just changing a jumper. The 12SN7s are MUCH cheaper than good 6SN7 of similar type. Some subs for the *SN7s require a pin adapter but are well worth it. 7N7/14SN7s are great as are some 6F8G/VT-99s.

I have owned an MZ2 and also the MZ Pre which is very similar. LTA makes great stuff.


----------



## Fried dr

Thanks!


----------



## Fried dr

Is it a fair generalization that the mz2 will perform best with dynamic driver headphones?  I am thing I have two planers and perhaps mz2 is most suited to something like a Zmf.


----------



## saidentary

Fried dr said:


> Is it a fair generalization that the mz2 will perform best with dynamic driver headphones?  I am thing I have two planers and perhaps mz2 is most suited to something like a Zmf.


I own the HiFiMAN HE1000 version one, which is planar magnetic.  I also own the ZMF Verite Closed, which is dynamic.  Both sound *fantastic* with the MicroZOTL 2, which I also own.  In my opinion the HE-1000 is a fabulous headphone, but the ZMF Verite Closed is even better.


----------



## Fried dr

Regarding the best pairing of the mz2 as a preamplifier with a power amplifier, I was looking at the Kinki studios monoblocks, and their website has this warning: "Our amplifiers are Direct-DC-Coupled without any capacitors in the signal path. This yields less colouration, high resolution, fast, and transparent sound quality. Should you wish to use other preamp make, please be informed that we do not recommend the use of DC-Coupled OTL tube-based preamp. The DC-offset of such preamp may fluctuate as the tube/valve ages and deteriorates."  I apologize if this is an ignorant question, but the mz2 is a DC-coupled OTL preamp, correct?  So this is a bad pairing?


----------



## Maelob

Fried dr said:


> Regarding the best pairing of the mz2 as a preamplifier with a power amplifier, I was looking at the Kinki studios monoblocks, and their website has this warning: "Our amplifiers are Direct-DC-Coupled without any capacitors in the signal path. This yields less colouration, high resolution, fast, and transparent sound quality. Should you wish to use other preamp make, please be informed that we do not recommend the use of DC-Coupled OTL tube-based preamp. The DC-offset of such preamp may fluctuate as the tube/valve ages and deteriorates."  I apologize if this is an ignorant question, but the mz2 is a DC-coupled OTL preamp, correct?  So this is a bad pairing?


Contact LTA they are very good in responding.


----------



## davide256

Fried dr said:


> I have a used mz2 on the way, which I purchased a couple days ago here on Head Fi. Never heard it before.  I have sold my Mytek Brooklyn DAC+ because I got sick of it as a DAC and HP amp. The DAC was too bright for me on my speakers, and I wasn't satisfied with the imaging as a HP amp or on speakers. Now I need a DAC to pair with the Microzotl. The rest of my system is highly resolving (amphion argon s speakers, Mytek Brookln Amp + amps running as monoblocks, SOTM SMS-200 Ultra neo streamer), so I feel I need a DAC that's not squeegee clean or bright.  Something warm yet completely low res scares me. I'm scared to pull the trigger on a Border Patrol - will it be to low res for my taste?? I need a small form factor - all my components are under 11" wide.   What about MDHT labs - I see almost no reviews on line for them.  Any advice?  Soekris?  Ares ii?


I'm finding the Denafrips Ares II DAC really "sings" with the Microzotl 2 whereas Chord Mojo was more impressive with solid state/passive pre. It really pushes out that mid range bloom and ordinary CD rate music will get your toe tapping for dynamics. Strange that the Ares II behaves like a wallflower with solid state/passive pre but bowls me over with the MZ2. Being the least expensive Denafrips DAC its not as nuanced as a better grade DAC but  moving up in the Denafrips line for more depth of detail will
be an easy future choice.


----------



## viggen

I am strangely finding good synergy between MZ2 and Ares2.  Sometimes I think I am a sucker for overhyped audio products.  But, just maybe, the hype with these two is real.


----------



## Maelob

It is a great DAC I liked the sound but ended up selling it because it was having issues with my old Mac. now using the Schiit bitfrost2 also a good match with my z10


----------



## Fried dr

saidentary said:


> I own the HiFiMAN HE1000 version one, which is planar magnetic.  I also own the ZMF Verite Closed, which is dynamic.  Both sound *fantastic* with the MicroZOTL 2, which I also own.  In my opinion the HE-1000 is a fabulous headphone, but the ZMF Verite Closed is even better.


Just ordered verite closed on ZMF's black fridayish sale!  So excited!


----------



## Relaxasaurus

Anyone have one of these for sale, or would be interested in letting me borrow one for a review?


----------



## Powermankw

Anyone use Utopias with the MZ2? I would be interested in pairing.


----------



## Uguccione

To the eye it should be a good match.


----------



## skhan007

I live near Urban HiFi and have listened to the Microzotl2 a couple of times and most recently, with my ZMF Auteur. Really considering buying one. Potentially dumb question- has anybody upgraded from the Bottlehead Crack and could comment on their impressions?


----------



## Tralfaz

I've been enjoying my MZ2-S mostly as a preamp driving Genelec active monitors with a subwoofer for a few months now, it's been quite a step up from my previous preamp.

The amp shipped to me with NOS RCA 12SN7s and Gold Lion reissue 12AT7s which sounded great but the Gold Lions had more gain than I'd have liked, so yesterday I replaced the Gold Lions with a pair of RCA 12AU7s with clear tops and side getters that I had used in another preamp.  While it's too early to say miuch about the sound I will note that I appreciate the lower gain which gives me more flexibility with the volume knob.

For those of you who are running 12AU7s, what are you using and why do you like them?  The RCAs I just put in are good in many respects but they may be a little light on the bass (I'm not certain about this yet since it's been less than a day of use).  12AU7 tubes in general seem pretty inexpensive so I'd consider trying something else (but not too many because unscrewing and replacing 14 screws can quickly become a pain in the neck).

Thanks!


----------



## viggen (Jan 28, 2022)

I damaged my MZ2 and am wondering whether anyone has any clues as to what the damage might be and how to repair hopefully without sending it back to LTA.

I plugged the amp into a HDPlex 300's 12v 3a plug.  After I power the MZ2 on, the power button still lights up but the tubes were not getting warm.  And, of course, no sound.  What I might've done wrong is not turning off the HDPlex when switching DC cords.  The amp was definitely off.

Even after I plugged it back to the original PSU, same thing.  Light turns on but tubes doesn't get warm.


----------



## viggen

Got  a reply from LTA.  Possible fuse replacement only.


----------



## Uguccione

I, on the other hand, have a question to ask, who will answer: in the MicroZotl the tubes all wear out in the same way or the power ones exhaust faster?


----------



## mourip

Uguccione said:


> I, on the other hand, have a question to ask, who will answer: in the MicroZotl the tubes all wear out in the same way or the power ones exhaust faster?


I doubt that anyone here can answer that since different brands may also wear differently. 

I can say that according to LTA literature the David Berning circuits are very easy on tubes and so prolong their life.

Why not email LTA? They have fantastic customer service.


----------



## skhan007

Uguccione said:


> I, on the other hand, have a question to ask, who will answer: in the MicroZotl the tubes all wear out in the same way or the power ones exhaust faster?


If you do not drive the amp too hard, tubes should last a lifetime. Especially since these tubes apparently only receive a fraction of the current that is typical. I agree that you should contact the manufacturer for further details.


----------



## Uguccione

Thanks, it was just a curiosity, nothing important enough to disturb the LTA high echelons 😂 

 Question number 2: do the tubes still wear out keeping the amplifier on and not running?  
However, I always turn it on just before use;  couple quickly.


----------



## viggen

in general power tubes wear out much faster than signal tubes... so if lta's circuit allows power tubes to last 10k hours... then signal tubes are 10k+ x hours


----------



## Uguccione

For some ten hours I have inserted a new NOS tube quartet.  At first the sound was mediocre, plus there were various whistles and noises coming from the tubes.  But now they are cooking well.  Great sound.  This amp is delightful.


----------



## viggen

so after i blew my mz2's fuse, i replaced it with a glass one cuz it has 1 day delivery via amz.  afterwards, i plugged it in (correctly this time) to the HDPlex's 12v 3a output (i think i accidentally plugged it into the 19v last time).  the HDPlex already has a SR orange fuse in it.  i found the sound changed more to my liking.  smoother, stronger, darker.  

thinking the aftermarket fuse contributed, i started exploring more fuses and ordered an Audio Magic SHD for the mz2 and another orange for my dac, an orchid.  the SHD arrived yesterday, and i inserted the fuse with the letters (on the fuse) "SHD" right side up.  the box has a sticker on it that says "Burn in 100 hours" or something to that effect.  but, i heard an immediate improvement.  clearer, wider, more vibrating shimmering.  

after 24 hours (or about 6 hours of listening time), i turned the fuse so the letters are upside down.  the sound is now smoother and more enveloping.  it's quite a bit softer too.  i have to turn the volume up and turn the sub on to feel the lower octaves.  however, the sound is now eerily good.


----------



## DownToThis

viggen said:


> so after i blew my mz2's fuse, i replaced it with a glass one cuz it has 1 day delivery via amz.  afterwards, i plugged it in (correctly this time) to the HDPlex's 12v 3a output (i think i accidentally plugged it into the 19v last time).  the HDPlex already has a SR orange fuse in it.  i found the sound changed more to my liking.  smoother, stronger, darker.
> 
> thinking the aftermarket fuse contributed, i started exploring more fuses and ordered an Audio Magic SHD for the mz2 and another orange for my dac, an orchid.  the SHD arrived yesterday, and i inserted the fuse with the letters (on the fuse) "SHD" right side up.  the box has a sticker on it that says "Burn in 100 hours" or something to that effect.  but, i heard an immediate improvement.  clearer, wider, more vibrating shimmering.
> 
> after 24 hours (or about 6 hours of listening time), i turned the fuse so the letters are upside down.  the sound is now smoother and more enveloping.  it's quite a bit softer too.  i have to turn the volume up and turn the sub on to feel the lower octaves.  however, the sound is now eerily good.


I have a similar set up (LTA with MHDT), would you happen to have any pictures of your modifications? I'm not technically savvy so would be helpful to see where you put the fuses.  Thanks


----------



## viggen

DownToThis said:


> I have a similar set up (LTA with MHDT), would you happen to have any pictures of your modifications? I'm not technically savvy so would be helpful to see where you put the fuses.  Thanks



Here you go.

This is where I got it from:

https://www.kitsunehifi.com/product...250v-5x20mm-2a-slow-blow-fuse-for-spring-dac/


----------



## DownToThis

viggen said:


> Here you go.
> 
> This is where I got it from:
> 
> https://www.kitsunehifi.com/product...250v-5x20mm-2a-slow-blow-fuse-for-spring-dac/


Thanks! I never knew a fuse could make a difference in sounds. Neat to hear your description!


----------



## skhan007

So there's an audible difference in the fuse and that audible difference improves when you change the orientation of the fuse? That's amazing. I believe the fuse just carries DC voltage, so how is this possible? Very interesting!!


----------



## viggen

skhan007 said:


> So there's an audible difference in the fuse and that audible difference improves when you change the orientation of the fuse? That's amazing. I believe the fuse just carries DC voltage, so how is this possible? Very interesting!!


dunno if serious...


----------



## davide256

Tralfaz said:


> I've been enjoying my MZ2-S mostly as a preamp driving Genelec active monitors with a subwoofer for a few months now, it's been quite a step up from my previous preamp.
> 
> The amp shipped to me with NOS RCA 12SN7s and Gold Lion reissue 12AT7s which sounded great but the Gold Lions had more gain than I'd have liked, so yesterday I replaced the Gold Lions with a pair of RCA 12AU7s with clear tops and side getters that I had used in another preamp.  While it's too early to say miuch about the sound I will note that I appreciate the lower gain which gives me more flexibility with the volume knob.
> 
> ...


Telefunken 12AT7's or 12AU7's are neutral, sharp  on transients with good low bass clarity


----------



## Tralfaz

davide256 said:


> Telefunken 12AT7's or 12AU7's are neutral, sharp  on transients with good low bass clarity



Thank you for this!  They seem a bit on the expensive side but the amp's specs suggest very long tube life so it may be worth the investment.


----------



## davide256

Tralfaz said:


> Thank you for this!  They seem a bit on the expensive side but the amp's specs suggest very long tube life so it may be worth the investment.


Lived with a Conrad Johnson PV-10A pre for many years so built up quite a collection of 12AU7 tubes. The other nice thing about Telefunken
12AU7 tubes is they are hard to fake  (1) diamond embossed on center of tube bottom (2) little silica "ski" ramp  in center of top silica wafer
make picture verification easy. Most of whats out there now is rebranded Telefunken from 60's console manufacturers which doesn't matter out all,
same sound quality.


----------



## davide256

Has anyone tried using Schiit LISST solid state substitutes for 6SN7in their MZ2? 
Acquired some Orchard Audio GaN mono block amplifiers, they are exposing some harmonic "fuzz" on background instruments that completely goes away 
using a passive pre, pondering if the 6sn7 tubes are cause.


----------



## davide256

funkle II said:


> Has anyone tried a Denafrips Ares or other R2R DAC with their MS2? I’m wondering how these pair.


Using an Ares II with MZ2 is like turning it into an EL34 amplifier, the mid range is sublime which makes you aware the bass and treble isn't up
to the same calibre. So good combination but gateway drug to buying a better R2R DAC


----------



## doctorjazz

I just seem to have damaged my MZ2 (serial #0002!), no sound after an inadvertent cable tug and short fall. It was modded by Mojo-Audio (don't think they do these any more, have moved on to DAC's, power supplies). Very bummed, not sure if anything can do (the original had very delicate internal connections, 2nd time I've needed a repair, which is how I wound up modding it in the first place). Crap!


----------



## Maelob

doctorjazz said:


> I just seem to have damaged my MZ2 (serial #0002!), no sound after an inadvertent cable tug and short fall. It was modded by Mojo-Audio (don't think they do these any more, have moved on to DAC's, power supplies). Very bummed, not sure if anything can do (the original had very delicate internal connections, 2nd time I've needed a repair, which is how I wound up modding it in the first place). Crap!


Won’t hurt to contact them


----------



## tholt

Used to own one of these but sold it due to getting Abyss 1266. Now thinking about picking one up again since I've changed cans, and noticed that LTA has a 10% off sale currently. 

A couple of questions if anyone has insight: How does this amp fare with the HEKse? And has anyone compared it to the V281? Those two items are in my current setup. Thanks in advance.


----------



## davide256

doctorjazz said:


> I just seem to have damaged my MZ2 (serial #0002!), no sound after an inadvertent cable tug and short fall. It was modded by Mojo-Audio (don't think they do these any more, have moved on to DAC's, power supplies). Very bummed, not sure if anything can do (the original had very delicate internal connections, 2nd time I've needed a repair, which is how I wound up modding it in the first place). Crap!


The tubes are the most fragile part, have you swapped those out?

problems I have had with a MZ2 over several years

1) Right and left channels used essentially phono cartridge leads from PCB board to the volume pot, these would slip off/no sound. Ended up
   lightly soldering in place to stop problem.
2) rear input/output connectors tend to loosen over time, can stress/break soldered connections. Since these don't really lock in place, all one
can do is periodically tighten, using a needle nose pliers to hold the inside part in place. And solder repair if you let it go to far/ twisted and broke
a solder connection.

I doubt the PCB board was damaged by a fall, tubes and connections to volume knob/input/output are where things are fragile.


----------



## doctorjazz (Apr 29, 2022)

@davide256 , thanks for the response. I was distraught, didn't try much to see what the issue is. Do I just try other tubes? Not sure I have the correct ones (do have some spares to try though). At one point I was trying tube rolling, early on when I had just gotten it, but the "floor" of the original MZ2 is something akin to cardboard, and I was told that removing and replacing of the tubes is what damaged it the first time it went dead. (been using an original Cavelli Liquid Carbon I had sitting around in the meantime)


----------



## davide256

doctorjazz said:


> @davide256 , thanks for the response. I was distraught, didn't try much to see what the issue is. Do I just try other tubes? Not sure I have the correct ones (do have some spares to try though). At one point I was trying tube rolling, early on when I had just gotten it, but the "floor" of the original MZ2 is something akin to cardboard, and I was told that removing and replacing of the tubes is what damaged it the first time it went dead. (been using an original Cavelli Liquid Carbon I had sitting around in the meantime)


the MZ2  has 2  12AT7 pre tubes and the 2 power tubes default was originally 6sn7 About a year after it went on market a switch was added that let you use 12SN7 tubes 
(12v vs 6v) which are more readily available as NOS then 6sn7 tubes. The tubes that originally came with it were new manufacture Tungsol tubes.
Whoever told you that you could harm it by tube rolling is a fraud...the sockets are pretty indestructible and well soldered. Just make sure to power the unit off, unplug it
and wait 5 minutes for tubes to cool before swapping.


----------



## erics75

My friend has the MZ2 (stock tubes, switching power supply) which he kindly lent me for about two weeks (just sent it back). First things first, I loved the sound so much my own new MZ2 (same configuration as my buddy's) is on it's way from LTA this week 

I love tube amps and high ohm headphones, especially ZMFs. My current fav is the Atrium. I also love R2R dacs, and have a Holo Cyan PCM. Pairing the Cyan in NOS mode with the MZ2 and Atrium is incredibly synergistic. What I love about the MZ2 vs my other tube amps (Kenzie OG2, Ovation 1, Tuba) is it's more solid state like speed and control. My other amps are more euphonic, but also tend to soften the sound a bit. It's very pleasing, but sometimes is too much. The MZ2 gives me the speed and impact a good solid state amp offers, while retaining an overall tonally rich, euphonic, and holographic presentation only a good tube amp can offer. I find it a wonderful middle ground. 

Besides the speed and control, another aspect that stood out to me was the treble. I have my other amps running warm tubes for fatigue free long session listening at work. But despite the MZ2's added air and treble presence, I did not find myself fatigued in the least even after a full workday with my headphones on. Obviously that isn't 8 straight hours of listening, but you get my drift. When I run leaner tubes in my other amps, the treble fatigues slightly. 

Can't wait for my own unit to arrive and officially join the owners club!


----------



## mourip

erics75 said:


> The MZ2 gives me the speed and impact a good solid state amp offers, while retaining an overall tonally rich, euphonic, and holographic presentation only a good tube amp can offer. I find it a wonderful middle ground.


You just described LTA equipment perfectly. I would describe it as the best of both worlds...


----------



## Powermankw

I have a Z40. I got a set of Telefunken for input/output. My pre tubes are RCA. The Teles took too much of the warmth of the original Mullards away. It still sounded fantastic, but too much solid state. I put a pair back in to meet in the middle... Speed, dynamics, punch, but warm, euphonic, air, texture... Perfection. The ZOTL was a bit of a leap, but it's my endgame. No need to look further.


----------



## doctorjazz

Had a scare, my modded MZ2 dropped (about 4-6 inches, was sitting on top of another component, accidentally pulled a cable that pulled down the MZ2). It didn't work right after the fall; I left it in place (contacted LTA about a possible repair). It's an original, modded (Serial number 0002). As a dyed in the wool, board-certified procrastinator, didn't get around to sending it in. Tried it a few days ago, it's working!!!! (man, does it sound good! Was using a Liquid Carbon in my computer/headphone setup instead, not a bad sounding piece, but, boy, does my MZ2 KILL IT!


----------



## doctorjazz

(Would strongly consider LTA's preamps and amps for the main system, but my speakers are very low impedance, don't think they'd work well together, and the Krell amp I do use to drive them is best in balanced mode).


----------



## erics75

doctorjazz said:


> Had a scare, my modded MZ2 dropped (about 4-6 inches, was sitting on top of another component, accidentally pulled a cable that pulled down the MZ2). It didn't work right after the fall; I left it in place (contacted LTA about a possible repair). It's an original, modded (Serial number 0002). As a dyed in the wool, board-certified procrastinator, didn't get around to sending it in. Tried it a few days ago, it's working!!!! (man, does it sound good! Was using a Liquid Carbon in my computer/headphone setup instead, not a bad sounding piece, but, boy, does my MZ2 KILL IT!


you dodged a bullet there! did you change tubes after the fall? could it have been a busted tube when it wasn't working? hopefully it stays working.


----------



## doctorjazz

No, didn't touch the tubes, or anything else (I got in trouble "tube rolling" a while back-the original MZ2 wasn't made with tube rolling in mind, and the bottom of the unit, where the tubes plug in, isn't rigid enough to handle multiple tugs from changing tubes. In fact, that was what caused my first malfunction, at which time I decided I'd try modding it as long as I needed a repair).


----------



## skhan007

I’ve really got to make the time to drive up to LTA again. I remember really liking the MZ2 and I’d like to hear it again. Part of me thinks I’m a solid state guy, loving the sound out of my RME ADI2 DAC into my ZMF cans. Something tells me the MZ2 could be something special, as it’s combining the best of both worlds.


----------



## erics75

skhan007 said:


> I’ve really got to make the time to drive up to LTA again. I remember really liking the MZ2 and I’d like to hear it again. Part of me thinks I’m a solid state guy, loving the sound out of my RME ADI2 DAC into my ZMF cans. Something tells me the MZ2 could be something special, as it’s combining the best of both worlds.


ZMF and MZ2 are very synergistic.


----------



## jonathan c

ZMF Auteur with LTA MZ3 (close!) is one of my favourite combinations! OTL / transients performance 😄:


----------



## skhan007 (Jul 2, 2022)

erics75 said:


> ZMF and MZ2 are very synergistic.


Agree- I remember the first couple of times I heard the MZ2 were with my Auteur. Now, I also own a pair of Verite Open. I can only imagine this is an ideal pairing. Let me ask you this, as it's been many months since I heard the MZ2 in-person: One of the most important things for me, personally, is staging and separation. I really appreciate upper midrange and highs that are clear and distinct. I don't care for the "blurriness" that some tube amps do, with softening those frequencies. So, if I were hearing percussion like chimes, ride cymbals, (think Neil Peart and all the transients), the guitar pick on a 12-string guitar, the snap of rack toms, etc...I like to hear those nuances quite distinctly. My solid state experiences are consistent with this. However, my tube amp experience (although quite limited) has provided really nice low-end extension, which is great. For prog rock and fusion, I imagine the MZ2 fits the bill?



jonathan c said:


> ZMF Auteur with LTA MZ3 (close!) is one of my favourite combinations! OTL / transients performance 😄:


Beautiful- If only I could swing the MZ3!! You're very fortunate to have such great gear!


----------



## erics75

skhan007 said:


> Agree- I remember the first couple of times I heard the MZ2 were with my Auteur. Now, I also own a pair of Verite Open. I can only imagine this is an ideal pairing. Let me ask you this, as it's been many months since I heard the MZ2 in-person: One of the most important things for me, personally, is staging and separation. I really appreciate upper midrange and highs that are clear and distinct. I don't care for the "blurriness" that some tube amps do, with softening those frequencies. So, if I were hearing percussion like chimes, ride cymbals, (think Neil Peart and all the transients), the guitar pick on a 12-string guitar, the snap of rack toms, etc...I like to hear those nuances quite distinctly. My solid state experiences are consistent with this. However, my tube amp experience (although quite limited) has provided really nice low-end extension, which is great. For prog rock and fusion, I imagine the MZ2 fits the bill?
> 
> 
> Beautiful- If only I could swing the MZ3!! You're very fortunate to have such great gear!


I think the MZ2 would be great for prog rock it’s very clean and precise like solid state but still with tube flavor imbued. It’s not going to be overly smoothed over or hazy. It’s quite detailed.


----------



## skhan007

erics75 said:


> I think the MZ2 would be great for prog rock it’s very clean and precise like solid state but still with tube flavor imbued. It’s not going to be overly smoothed over or hazy. It’s quite detailed.


Great- Thank you for the input. I'll email Nicholas at LTA and see if I can come up for a visit. Their shop is very close to me. It would be even better if there was a Holiday sale or something similar. I know that with the standard power supply, it's $1295. I recall on occasion, they're have a sale.


----------



## skhan007

Guys, what are the chances of me finding a used/pre-owned MZ2 or MZ3? Slim to none? I’m in the US, by the way.


----------



## jonathan c

skhan007 said:


> Guys, what are the chances of me finding a used/pre-owned MZ2 or MZ3? Slim to none? I’m in the US, by the way.


Have you asked anyone at LTA?


----------



## skhan007

jonathan c said:


> Have you asked anyone at LTA?


I haven’t. I checked the site and saw the two they had used were sold.


----------



## jonathan c

skhan007 said:


> I haven’t. I checked the site and saw the two they had used were sold.


Could you be put on a contact / first dibs list with LTA?


----------



## skhan007

jonathan c said:


> Could you be put on a contact / first dibs list with LTA?


Good question. It certainly couldn’t hurt to ask!


----------



## saidentary

The MicroZOTL 2 pairs fabulously well with the Verite Closed.  I own both and have commented on this thread and even more extensively (I think) on the Verite Closed thread.  And yes, smooth detailed high end, plenty of low tight bass, great transient attack.  _To my ears,_ the sound approaches perfection in terms of a headphone system.


----------



## erics75

skhan007 said:


> Guys, what are the chances of me finding a used/pre-owned MZ2 or MZ3? Slim to none? I’m in the US, by the way.


Can't hurt to put out a wanted ad here in the classifieds. I've gotten a few hard to find items that way pretty fast.


----------



## erics75

saidentary said:


> The MicroZOTL 2 pairs fabulously well with the Verite Closed.  I own both and have commented on this thread and even more extensively (I think) on the Verite Closed thread.  And yes, smooth detailed high end, plenty of low tight bass, great transient attack.  _To my ears,_ the sound approaches perfection in terms of a headphone system.


And the Atrium! I wish I had my VC still to try on the MZ2, I can imagine it's stellar. I love how natural and effortless the MZ2/Atrium combo is. And as of today I'll be listening on my own MZ2!  After a delay by FedEx I have my own unit in my possession. No more begging my friend for his haha.


----------



## Powermankw

skhan007 said:


> Good question. It certainly couldn’t hurt to ask!


When I was looking for my Z40... LTA gear is few and far between. I would search for any ZOTL. They come available, just not very often. Keep a search on hifi shark... Or ask LTA how to get something if it comes in.


----------



## mourip

jonathan c said:


> Have you asked anyone at LTA?


+1. They do get in trade-ins.


----------



## skhan007

Thanks guys- I contacted LTA about trade-ins. I'll keep an eye on their website. They do list trade-ins for sale on social media, but I don't do Facebook or Instagram. 

If any of you guys know of an MZ2 for sale in the US, please let me know. I'll check the classifieds here (maybe put in a WTB ad), Hi-Fi Shark, etc.


----------



## cottaudio

I've been a lurker on this thread for a while now and I'm pretty sure I'm going to drop the mulah for a MZ2 in a couple of months (Need to move apartment first, expense after expense aha).
I saw that a few people had used the Mojo Illuminati lps with the MZ2 to great success and was wondering if anyone else had used a different lps, other than the LTA lps+, that had worked well?


----------



## mourip

cottaudio said:


> I've been a lurker on this thread for a while now and I'm pretty sure I'm going to drop the mulah for a MZ2 in a couple of months (Need to move apartment first, expense after expense aha).
> I saw that a few people had used the Mojo Illuminati lps with the MZ2 to great success and was wondering if anyone else had used a different lps, other than the LTA lps+, that had worked well?


Looks like the Mojo supplies are out of stock and "on hold" for a while. I would get LTA's LPS and spend money on rolling some NOS tubes  

Better yet, try to find their preamp on the used market. It is an advanced version of their MZ2 and also has a headphone output. LPS is built in.

"Due to overwhelming demand for our Mystique DACs, we are delaying production of our Illuminati power supplies."


----------



## skhan007

Guys, please let me know your thoughts: 

I placed a WTB ad on the classifieds and someone maybe offering me a first-run MZ2 (serial less than 100). Any upgrades to the newer/more recent versions? Power supply? I believe this older model does not have the internal jumpers for switching 6sn7 & 12sn7. Curious on opinions of the older models.


----------



## jonathan c

•  You should ask LTA. They should be able to tell you if changes were made to MZ2 with respect to 6SN7 / 12SN7: especially if you relay that narrow serial # range.
•  FYI, when I initially looked at MZ3, there were jumper slots for use depending on the choice of 6SN7 / 12SN7. A year plus later, when I purchased / received the MZ3, a slider switch was on the pcb to accommodate the choice.


----------



## cottaudio

mourip said:


> Looks like the Mojo supplies are out of stock and "on hold" for a while. I would get LTA's LPS and spend money on rolling some NOS tubes
> 
> Better yet, try to find their preamp on the used market. It is an advanced version of their MZ2 and also has a headphone output. LPS is built in.
> 
> "Due to overwhelming demand for our Mystique DACs, we are delaying production of our Illuminati power supplies."


Thanks for the response!
Yeah you're probably right, especially since the LPS+ was designed with the MZ2 in mind.
Interesting about the preamp, I was aware of it of course but for some reason never thought to scour the used market for one - an interesting idea.


----------



## viggen

jonathan c said:


> ZMF Auteur with LTA MZ3 (close!) is one of my favourite combinations! OTL / transients performance 😄:


How come your PSU's power switch is on the front?  Is that a standard MZ3 psu?


----------



## jonathan c

viggen said:


> How come your PSU's power switch is on the front?  Is that a standard MZ3 psu?


That _is _the p/s/u that came with the MZ3. When I looked at MZ3 a year+ ago, the p/s/u had a different appearance: vent slots in front and power switch in back, I believe. [Also, a year+ ago, the 6SN7/12SN7 choice was made via jumper location. Now, there is a slider switch on the pcb to accommodate that choice.]


----------



## viggen

jonathan c said:


> That _is _the p/s/u that came with the MZ3. When I looked at MZ3 a year+ ago, the p/s/u had a different appearance: vent slots in front and power switch in back, I believe. [Also, a year+ ago, the 6SN7/12SN7 choice was made via jumper location. Now, there is a slider switch on the pcb to accommodate that choice.]


So, yours is a more recent iteration.  I bought mine 2nd hand so not sure when it was made.  I like how the new one is not as deep dimension wise and prefer the button on the front.  I don't like the big "LTA" sticker on the front though.


----------



## skhan007

Ok, decided to start reading this thread from the beginning, in the hopes of learning differences between the early MZ2 (red neutrik jack, red screws on top, switching power supply, no jumpers for 12sn7/6sn7, and two inputs on back) vs. current version. I’ve also emailed LTA and hope to hear back.

@saidentary , @jamato8 , @doctorjazz , @drbluenewmexico … You all contributed quite a good amount of info, early in this thread, on your respective MZ2 units with the original specs I’ve mentioned above. I have an opportunity to buy one (two digit serial number) like yours.

Today, all these years later, do you have any thoughts, regrets, or anything to pass along? I’m quite certain I’d be happy and have heard the MZ2 (current version) a couple of times at the LTA shop. 

I did read several people stating the stock switching power supply was very good and upgrading to the LPS was a marginal improvement with a significant price tag. How about the sound of the amp? Any changes in sound signature over the years?


----------



## drbluenewmexico

Still listening to mine….both stock and one that Ben at Mojo Audio upgraded with better tubes. I use Mojo Audio
battery power supplies on both of them and that makes a notable improvement in clarity and musicality
Both drive Focal headphones very well, also do iems extremely well. I use a Tradutto Earman DAC for my headphone reference system with the
upgraded Microzotal, same model as you are considering and am very happy!


----------



## jonathan c

It’s nice to see a mention of Ben at Mojo Audio. (I have one of the earliest EVO Mystique DAC with all the b&w: #0002)


----------



## drbluenewmexico

jonathan c said:


> It’s nice to see a mention of Ben at Mojo Audio. (I have one of the earliest EVO Mystique DAC with all the b&w: #0002


----------



## drbluenewmexico

Ben at Mojo Audio is a brilliant digital audio engineer!


----------



## skhan007

drbluenewmexico said:


> Still listening to mine….both stock and one that Ben at Mojo Audio upgraded with better tubes. I use Mojo Audio
> battery power supplies on both of them and that makes a notable improvement in clarity and musicality
> Both drive Focal headphones very well, also do iems extremely well. I use a Tradutto Earman DAC for my headphone reference system with the
> upgraded Microzotal, same model as you are considering and am very happy!


Thanks for the reply. It sounds like you like the MZ2 so much, that you own two of them? Thanks for the encouragement regarding me pursuing this older model that's being offered to me. I'm also inquiring right now with LTA to see how much they charge to upgrade the standard switching supply to LPS+ specs. Of course I'll listen to the stock power supply and I'm sure it's very good (as evidenced by the comments earlier in this thread).


----------



## jonathan c

From the LTA website:


----------



## skhan007

jonathan c said:


> From the LTA website:


Thank you! Glad to know this is not cost-prohibitive.


----------



## skhan007

jonathan c said:


> From the LTA website:


OK- Just emailed LTA. Apparently, if one has the original switching power supply, it cannot be upgraded to LPS+. One needs to purchase the LPS+ for $650. This would mean that I'd be stuck with the switching power supply or spend $650 to upgrade. Now I'm pausing to see if I still want to buy this older unit.


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## drbluenewmexico

skhan007 said:


> Thanks for the reply. It sounds like you like the MZ2 so much, that you own two of them? Thanks for the encouragement regarding me pursuing this older model that's being offered to me. I'm also inquiring right now with LTA to see how much they charge to upgrade the standard switching supply to LPS+ specs. Of course I'll listen to the stock power supply and I'm sure it's very good (as evidenced by the comments earlier in this thread).


Well, kind of! the true story is interesting. I saw David Berning's patent on the web for the original Microzotl when it was issued, and wrote him a letter, begging him to make me one.  He agreed to and i received it about two months later and loved it! It has a blue case.   nothing else happened for about 7 years re production of it and i wrote him a second letter recommending he market it vigorously because of the increase in headphone popularity.  He apparently formed a new company with Linear Audio (LTA) and they started production and sent me one to review.  Unfortunately it came completely  smashed into pieces courtesy of the postal service.  They made a new prototype and sent me a second one which sounded great, which i used for years. I was working with BEN at Mojoaudio.com as a tester and he suggested he upgrade mine after he heard it with better tubes and resistors.  He did his magic on it and also sold me a used linear Mojo Audio power supply.  Thats what i currently use in my main headphone system.
I have other good solid state headphone amps, but none of them are as liquid and musical as the Microzotl that Ben upgraded.  i have not heard LTAs revisions to the originals and cannot comment on their quality or listening pleasure.   Berning is obviously a genius, and his design of the Microzotl at a reasonable cost was certainly a breakthrough in headphone technology and cost effectiveness.  you might want to contact Ben Zweikel at MojoAudio.com for other information regarding power supplies and upgrades, as he is still in the field.


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## davide256 (Jul 13, 2022)

You can drive a MZ2 quite nicely with a Superfarad3 LPS @12 volts. I plan to eventually upgrade in the LTA line of pre devices as I can hear damped upper treble transients and some deep bass roll off but everything in between is quite nice


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## cottaudio

davide256 said:


> You can drive a MZ2 quite nicely with a Superfarad3 LPS @12 volts. I plan to eventually upgrade in the LTA line of pre devices as I can hear damped upper treble transients and some deep bass roll off but everything in between is quite nice


Interesting to hear, have you compared the Farad LPS to the LTA LPS+ at all? Would be interested to hear about it.

Do you mean that you mean to upgrade the LPS to an LTA one, or that you'll upgrade to a higher level LTA product in general?


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## doctorjazz

I have an early one, serial #0002. I was perfectly happy with it, but it stopped working at some point... I believe it was due to tube rolling. The original sits on a flimsy base, and inserting, them removing the tubes causes a connection to break. Since I had to send it out for repair anyway, I opted to send it to Ben, spring for upgrades (many internal, massive external power supply), and I have to say it sounds amazing. Obviously, I didn't have the original version to compare it to, which is consider a more accurate of judging (but, hey, in life we don't always get optimal-many times I've had to compare components in one dealer's showroom to different ones in another dealers, with different ancillary equipment. Such is life). 
So, my take would be: the power supply upgrades are not essential but worthwhile. The original is probably fine if you place it securely and don't mess with tube rolling. If you do want to experiment, you're better off with a newer version of it.


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## skhan007 (Jul 14, 2022)

doctorjazz said:


> I have an early one, serial #0002. I was perfectly happy with it, but it stopped working at some point... I believe it was due to tube rolling. The original sits on a flimsy base, and inserting, them removing the tubes causes a connection to break. Since I had to send it out for repair anyway, I opted to send it to Ben, spring for upgrades (many internal, massive external power supply), and I have to say it sounds amazing. Obviously, I didn't have the original version to compare it to, which is consider a more accurate of judging (but, hey, in life we don't always get optimal-many times I've had to compare components in one dealer's showroom to different ones in another dealers, with different ancillary equipment. Such is life).
> So, my take would be: the power supply upgrades are not essential but worthwhile. The original is probably fine if you place it securely and don't mess with tube rolling. If you do want to experiment, you're better off with a newer version of it.


Wow, serial #0002 was David B's original production/prototype. Very nice that you now have it. I read the article when serial #0002 was reviewed. I also appreciate the info on the power supply. My plan is go visit LTA this weekend and listen again to the MZ2 very carefully, with my DAC and my headphones, which I'll bring along. As mentioned, I can pick up a used one and likely purchase the LPS+ separately and still be below the price of a new one. The alternative is to buy a newer one and as you mentioned, and have more durability with tube rolling. Honestly, I'm wondering if just getting some different 12AT7's and leaving the stock 6sn7's could be a simple option. Nonetheless, thank you again for chiming in.


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## doctorjazz

Since I got it repaired and the Ben modifications, I stopped tube rolling (and it sounds great as is)


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## skhan007 (Jul 14, 2022)

doctorjazz said:


> Since I got it repaired and the Ben modifications, I stopped tube rolling (and it sounds great as is)


What tubes did you settle on? Anyone else, feel free to suggest 12at7 and 6sn7 tubes you like!

Also, what mods specifically did you have done? Filtering, signal caps?


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## doctorjazz

Basically, it improved the shielding, the wiring, attached an umbilicus for the power supply. 
I copied an old post by @doctorblue in New Mexico with the basics. 

The upgrades head Mojo Benjamin Zwickel has done and will show you on this thread include:
Ultralow-noise linear power supply upgrades, DC power cable upgrades, lower noise grounding schemas, headphone or preamp optimizing, single input modification, multiple output modifications, anti-resonant treatments, high-performance fuse replacements, upgraded wiring, upgraded connectors, upgraded attenuators, upgrade capacitors, 4-pin XLR “balanced” headphone output, 3-pin XLR “balanced” input, and more to come. 

I didn't change to connector to balanced (had to cut costs somewhere), but did the others, and have a very powerful Mojo external power supply (hernia inducing weight).


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## davide256

cottaudio said:


> Interesting to hear, have you compared the Farad LPS to the LTA LPS+ at all? Would be interested to hear about it.
> 
> Do you mean that you mean to upgrade the LPS to an LTA one, or that you'll upgrade to a higher level LTA product in general?


I have what I assume is a better LPS than the LTA solution, an Uptone Audio JS-2. The Farad only loses out to the JS-2 because its peak output is 3A, the JS-2 
supports 4A with 6A transient burst. The amperage difference mattered only when I routinely turned volume knob past 1 o'clock (speaker amplifier) otherwise
the two were very similar.
Bought Orchard Audio GaN mono blocks about 90 days ago, been swapping back and forth between the MZ2 and a Schiit SYS passive pre, its very clear that the MZ2 has
shortfalls at the frequency extremes. So motivation to buy better in an LTA pre solution.


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## cottaudio

davide256 said:


> I have what I assume is a better LPS than the LTA solution, an Uptone Audio JS-2. The Farad only loses out to the JS-2 because its peak output is 3A, the JS-2
> supports 4A with 6A transient burst. The amperage difference mattered only when I routinely turned volume knob past 1 o'clock (speaker amplifier) otherwise
> the two were very similar.
> Bought Orchard Audio GaN mono blocks about 90 days ago, been swapping back and forth between the MZ2 and a Schiit SYS passive pre, its very clear that the MZ2 has
> shortfalls at the frequency extremes. So motivation to buy better in an LTA pre solution.


Interesting.

I'm a bit of a tinkerer so I was thinking about getting the MZ2 with the smps for a start and then trying an LPS from someone other than LTA with the view that I can always sell up and get the LPS+ later to try that, or not.

I was thinking about the Farad or i'd also thought about trying the Plixir BDC 4A, too.

This is a hobby after all and I like just trying stuff out! Some stuff works well, others don't, all part of the fun!


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## davide256

cottaudio said:


> Interesting.
> 
> I'm a bit of a tinkerer so I was thinking about getting the MZ2 with the smps for a start and then trying an LPS from someone other than LTA with the view that I can always sell up and get the LPS+ later to try that, or not.
> 
> ...


The stock SMPS does fine if you don’t push volume past 10 o’clock. Past that it strains vs using an LPS


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## davide256

Wondering if anyone has tried Schiit LISST solid state tube substitutes in place of 6sn7 in their MZ2 ?


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## skhan007

davide256 said:


> Wondering if anyone has tried Schiit LISST solid state tube substitutes in place of 6sn7 in their MZ2 ?


I’d be super interested in hearing feedback on this.


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## saidentary (Jul 31, 2022)

skhan007 said:


> Ok, decided to start reading this thread from the beginning, in the hopes of learning differences between the early MZ2 (red neutrik jack, red screws on top, switching power supply, no jumpers for 12sn7/6sn7, and two inputs on back) vs. current version. I’ve also emailed LTA and hope to hear back.
> 
> @saidentary , @jamato8 , @doctorjazz , @drbluenewmexico … You all contributed quite a good amount of info, early in this thread, on your respective MZ2 units with the original specs I’ve mentioned above. I have an opportunity to buy one (two digit serial number) like yours.
> 
> ...


I had the original switching power supply for about five years and finally upgraded the power supply to the LPS.  I was in the process of upgrading power supplies to my Project CD Box S CD player and the Arcam irDAC also, so I decided to upgrade the power supply of the MicroZOTL 2 (serial number 0007) as well.  I mostly upgraded power supplies because I didn't like the looks of the wall wart that came standard with the Project CD player.  I didn't really do critical comparative listening before and after changing all the power supplies.

Anyway, the switching power supply had always sounded great to me.  If you look back through the thread, which you have, you'll notice that I was very very late to get onto the power supply upgrade bandwagon.  I do suspect that it sounds better.  I have a vague, gestalt sense that perhaps the bass is probably more solid after changing the power supply. But I'm not sure what the result would be of a retrospective A-B comparison between the LPS and switching power supply if I were to do it now.  Also, I'm not particularly eager to test it.  I was, and still am, *very* satisfied.

I would say this: _*I wouldn't let the switching power supply be a deterrent to purchasing this fabulous amplifier.* _ I can't quantify the sonic improvement (if any) with the LPS upgrade (and, in my case, the other power supply upgrades).  However, as others have pointed out, the LPS is not a necessity; it's probably better, but I can't say by how much.


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## trollchu

Has anyone tried TH-909 with this amplifier?


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## erics75

I broke down and got the LPS+ for my MZ2. Though the differences between it and the SPS are subtle, they cumulatively add up to a noticeable and meaningful improvement to the amp's performance. Right off the bat I noticed the bass was tighter and more nuanced. Not sure if it hits harder, but definitely resolves fine textural details better. My ears keep thinking it's also hitting harder, but I think it's just an impression I'm getting from the better quality, vs quantity. With the SPS some bass notes would be ever so slightly soft and bloomy, whereas with the LPS the transient strike is tighter and more solid, if that makes sense. Not a huge difference, but with good bass test tracks easily noticeable. Realistically though when just casually listening to music the difference isn't going to change the overall experience significantly. 

Surprisingly the treble seems smoother, though not lacking in detail. If anything, it seems more resolving overall by a small degree. Not sure on this one, the differences are subtle. But I find myself turning up the volume a bit more with the LPS vs the SPS without fatigue. I'm very treble sensitive so this was a big surprise which I'm excited about. 

Finally, the stage seems bigger, but this might be placebo. I'm bad at discerning soundstage, but I keep thinking the stage seems more separated and precise. I can't really put my finger on how, but my brain keeps telling me the soundstage sounds different, in a good way. 

All in all very happy with my purchase. And to echo what saidentary said above, the MZ2 is a killer amp even with the SPS. The LPS does add some performance, but is NOT necessary to get a killer sounding amp. It's for those who obsess over that last 1-2% of available performance. Do I recommend the LPS? If you have the cash then definitely. But if budget is a concern, go with the SPS and enjoy, you won't be disappointed!


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## jonathan c

erics75 said:


> I broke down and got the LPS+ for my MZ2. Though the differences between it and the SPS are subtle, they cumulatively add up to a noticeable and meaningful improvement to the amp's performance. Right off the bat I noticed the bass was tighter and more nuanced. Not sure if it hits harder, but definitely resolves fine textural details better. My ears keep thinking it's also hitting harder, but I think it's just an impression I'm getting from the better quality, vs quantity. With the SPS some bass notes would be ever so slightly soft and bloomy, whereas with the LPS the transient strike is tighter and more solid, if that makes sense. Not a huge difference, but with good bass test tracks easily noticeable. Realistically though when just casually listening to music the difference isn't going to change the overall experience significantly.
> 
> Surprisingly the treble seems smoother, though not lacking in detail. If anything, it seems more resolving overall by a small degree. Not sure on this one, the differences are subtle. But I find myself turning up the volume a bit more with the LPS vs the SPS without fatigue. I'm very treble sensitive so this was a big surprise which I'm excited about.
> 
> ...


That all makes sense! The LPS should add a more steady _and instantaneous _supply of power. Transients and quick changes from _pianissimo _to _fortissimo _would thus be readily handled. This also helps the recovery of lower level detail such as cues relating to ambience and surroundings.


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## Tralfaz

My apologies if this has been asked and answered earlier but which tube has the greater effect on sound quality?  I've accumulated a lot of tubes over the years and might start rolling some tubes (though there's nothing wrong with the stock tubes - Gold Lion 12AT7s and old stock RCA 12SN7s) just to see what different tubes sound like.

Thanks!


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## davide256

NOS Telefunken 12AT7 and NOS Siemens triple mica ECC81 are what I've preferred for best transient detail and bass in pre tubes


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## davide256

LISST 6SN7 equivalent tubes were orderable at Schiit, ordered a pair and should be able to try them in 3 weeks ~$124 with shipping + tax. I'm curious to see if they help
with what I consider the weaknesses of the MZ2 as a pre, roll off at frequency extremes. If not, well might be time to think about better kit in the LTA line.


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## davide256

davide256 said:


> LISST 6SN7 equivalent tubes were orderable at Schiit, ordered a pair and should be able to try them in 3 weeks ~$124 with shipping + tax. I'm curious to see if they help
> with what I consider the weaknesses of the MZ2 as a pre, roll off at frequency extremes. If not, well might be time to think about better kit in the LTA line.


LISST tubes arrived yesterday. Having an issue with bass distortion on the right channel with the LISST tubes that doesn't exist with ordinary vacuum tubes. What little I have been able to listen to isn't very pleasant, treble is irritating. This is looking like a "FAIL" so far.


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## Fried dr

I'm looking for an open headphone sub $2k with relatively wide soundstage that plays well with mz2 as headphone amp.  My ZMF Verite Closed are a great match, but I want to add something open and my Anandas are tinny and plasticy.  Considering Arya V2 (hard to find now replaced by Stealth), but I'm concerned the mz2 won't drive adequately.  Alternatives are HD800s, HE1000v2 which are now reduced to $2k or perhaps something from Audeze.  Anyone have experience with an open back headphone that the mz2 drives with synnergy?


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## jonathan c (Oct 12, 2022)

Fried dr said:


> I'm looking for an open headphone sub $2k with relatively wide soundstage that plays well with mz2 as headphone amp.  My ZMF Verite Closed are a great match, but I want to add something open and my Anandas are tinny and plasticy.  Considering Arya V2 (hard to find now replaced by Stealth), but I'm concerned the mz2 won't drive adequately.  Alternatives are HD800s, HE1000v2 which are now reduced to $2k or perhaps something from Audeze.  Anyone have experience with an open back headphone that the mz2 drives with synnergy?


If you like the ZMF VC, why not give a go to ZMF Auteur Classic? Tremendous lineage and sound, open-backed, and meets your budget !!


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## davide256

The MZ2 with stock supply will drive all but the most inefficient cans. Buy the add on LPS if your cans are inefficient


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## mourip

Not sure if anyone is contemplating a purchase from LTA but they are currently having a sale right now. 15% off with code FALL15 for everything on their web site.

I have no affiliation with them but have owned a bunch of their equipment and still use their Ultralinear Integrated Plus in my speaker system.


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## Strat1117 (Nov 25, 2022)

davide256 said:


> LISST tubes arrived yesterday. Having an issue with bass distortion on the right channel with the LISST tubes that doesn't exist with ordinary vacuum tubes. What little I have been able to listen to isn't very pleasant, treble is irritating. This is looking like a "FAIL" so far.


It’s been a while, but my recollection is that the LISST ‘tubes’ are expressly NOT for anything but Schiit gear. They are not drop in replacements. At least that was true of the originals, I haven’t dabbled in anything Schiit for quite a long time.

— — —

I’ve read through this thread briefly, but I’m old, 174 pages is a lot and ultimately I couldn’t find what I’m looking for. I’m wondering if anyone has paired their MZ2 with Audeze LCD-3 with good results. I was thinking Pass Labs or Bakoon, but there’s something very attractive about this little amp - especially with the 15% discount. I’ve been a recovering tubeaholic  for over 5 years (after more than 30 as an all-tube analog guy), but I’ve never dabbled in OTL. I know they work great with 300 ohm Sennheisers and Zu or DeVore Orangutan speakers, but how do they do with 110 ohm Audeze planars.  I did see that Audeze in LA is listed as a demo center for LTA - I’m hoping that’s a good sign. Unfortunately, there’s nowhere close to NYC to do a demo (DC is way too far), so I seek your experienced and thoughtful observations.

Much obliged and thank you!


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## mourip (Nov 25, 2022)

Strat1117 said:


> I’ve aged through this thread briefly, but I’m old, 174 pages is a lot and ultimately I couldn’t find what I’m looking for. I’m wondering if anyone has paired their MZ2 with Audeze LCD-3 with good results. I was thinking Pass Labs or Bakoon, but there’s something very attractive about this little amp - especially with the 15% discount. I’ve been a recovering tubeaholic  for over 5 years (after more than 30 as an all-tube analog guy), but I’ve never dabbled in OTL. I know they work great with 300 ohm Sennheisers and Zu or DeVore Orangutan speakers, but how do they do with 110 ohm Audeze planars.  I did see that Audeze in LA is listed as a demo center for LTA - I’m hoping that’s a good sign. Unfortunately, there’s nowhere close to NYC to do a demo (DC is way too far), so I seek your experienced and thoughtful observations.
> 
> Much obliged and thank you!


Give Nicholas at LTA a call. He is great to work with and can give you very informed feedback on compatibility. He would never steer you to an amp that would not work well with your Audeze.


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## cats4cans

Came across this used MZ2 that LTA posted on Facebook and thought it might be of interest to those following this thread and thinking of buying an MZ2.
used MZ2 for sale by LTA


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