# FiiO Mont Blanc/E12 portable headphone amp, 880mW, slim design, full metal case. Bass boost and Cross feed!



## JamesFiiO

*The official introduction of Mont Blanc*
  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  
  
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------*Below is the history of the development* ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  
First, I don't want to use the word " High End " but any better word to describe it is the best headphone amp in our line up. from low to high, it is E6, E11, E12?
  
Why we develop E12?
  
The 1st reason is that to we now try to clear up our our products line up, and find out that there are room to us to make a better portable headphone amp.
  
The 2st reason, lots of user encourage  us to make a better amps because E11 can not satisfy them.
  
  
The 3st reason, we will see how can we show our ability in design , the E12 should have very good sound quality , affordable price, but sill have some different 

design compare with others high end amp. I think this is why FiiO alive and become more and more popular, we don't want to become a follower or just copy or
  
clone the design from others. 
  
  
The 4st reason, it maybe a very good way to reward to all FiiO's fans on Head-Fi, and could be more funny because we will release limited edition version.
  
  
  
OK, back to E12 itself, below is some features
  
1, ALPS potentiometer to control the volume, so far it still the best way to control the volume, simple and user friend.
  
  
2, 3.5mm input/output.
  
  
3, Gain control, sorry, only 2 different gains, but we do hope we can figure out how to install a 3 position switcher into the small case.
  
4, Output power >500mW.
  
  
5, Power supply: 6 AAA li-ion 10440 batteries, provide up to +/- 11V power supply.
  
  
6, Bass boost.
  
  
7, Crosstalk? maybe.
  
  
 UPDATED ON 1, NOV, 2012
  
1, ALPS potentiometer to control the volume, so far it still the best way to control the volume, simple and user friend.
2, 3.5mm input/output.
3, Gain control,  0dB and 10dB
4, Output power >700mW.
5, Power supply: build in 11.1V/800mAh li-ion 10440 battery,  OP Amp supplied power  +/- 11V .
6, Bass boost: ON and OFF
7, Crossfeed: ON , OFF.
8, Smart charge function, can be charged by USB power, auto switch charger current from 450mA when connect to PC, or 1A when used wall charger. 
9, Can be used while charging.
10, Output Buf: LME49600，pre amp: LME49710
11, 2 LED indicator. one to indicated the power also work as an alarm when there are any DC output or over current. one for charge status, includes low battery, full battery, charging.
12, Build in small relay to protect the headphones/earphones, avoid any pop noise when turn on/off the power.
13, Dimension: 124 X 65.5 X 14.5 with knobs, 119 X 65.5 X 14.5 without knobs 
14, Battery life: 15 hours, charge time: 7-8 hours by USB port of PC, 3 hours by 1.2A USB wall charger.
15, ETA: DEC.
 Initial design rending.


  
updated the newest photo of Mont Blanc/E12
  
  


  
  
  

  
  
updated the final  photo of Mont Blanc/E12
  
  
  

  
 The Pre order unit will be delivered before 10th , Jan, 2013 and we will carry some to CES.


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## KT66

I don't want or need EQ, I want a flat sound that accurately represents the recording and mastering,
   
  Heard of Quads Peter Walker? Probably the UK greatest ever amp designer, he said the perfect amp is a " wire with a Volume control"
   
  The amp should add no sound character to the sound at all, it should just amplify the source, as purely as possible.


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## zazex

Quote: 





kt66 said:


> I don't want or need EQ, I sound want a flat sound that accurately represents the recording and mastering,
> 
> Heard of Quads Peter Walker? Probably the UK greatest ever amp designer, he said the perfect amp is a " wire with a Volume control"
> 
> The amp should add no sound character to the sound at all, it should just amplify the source.


 

 "straight wire with gain" is the way I first heard it,
  but the concept's the same.
   
  I haven't used eq in years (except in the car ,which is a listening environment unto itself).
   
  But in Fiio's favor on this, I do notice many people like eq capability...


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## H20Fidelity

Output power >500mW 

I hope E12 bass boost works on lower sub regions similar to E11. I found E10's bass boost to be a little more mid bass focused in comparison. The boosting is very important to me in that regard but with as less colouration possible! I trust Fiio with their designs and thoughts so there's nothing I'd like changed from their own decisions.

The special edition sounds mighty interesting!!


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## JamesFiiO

h20fidelity said:


> Output power >500mW
> I hope E12 bass boost works on lower sub regions similar to E11. I found E10's bass boost to be a little more mid bass focused in comparison. The boosting is very important to me in that regard but with as less colouration possible! I trust Fiio with their designs and thoughts so there's nothing I'd like changed from their own decisions.
> The special edition sounds mighty interesting!!




The bass boost will similar with E11.

About the EQ/Bass Boost, it can be switched so don‘t worry about the sound transparent.


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## feigeibomber

Sounds like this amplifier will have a lot of juice ! 
 I wonder how it will fair up against other amplifiers such as the RX MK3 or the SR71B ?


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## JamesFiiO

feigeibomber said:


> Sounds like this amplifier will have a lot of juice !
> 
> I wonder how it will fair up against other amplifiers such as the RX MK3 or the SR71B ?




I don't think they are direct competitor .


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## Parall3l

So the amp will output >500mw at 32ohms ? Also, what's the predicted price for the E12?


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## JamesFiiO

parall3l said:


> So the amp will output >500mw at 32ohms ? Also, what's the predicted price for the E12?




Yes, retail price will lest than 200usd. Higher than100usd


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## bowei006

I remember you said 800mW @ 32 ohms in the "upcomming" thread. Was that now pulled down to 500mW? And what impendence are you talking about at 500mW?
   
  The E17 had a flaw where at higher volumes with generally harder to drive headphones(but it will happen on any headphone still) a "click click click" sound would come in. CLIEOS came in and said something about design I believe. But design or not, that was a flaw that I really didn't like in the E17 and made it hard sometimes. Many users have also noticed it.
   
  Some amps that use ALPS potentiometer's, when at low volume(like very low) will have imbalanced channels which is very bad for IEM's and other easy to drive headphones. I've had this with some amps, I don't believe I've heard it yet from a FiiO but just making sure it's there. I have some very low impendence and easy to drive 16 ohm IEM's that are sensitive to that kind of stuff. They aren't expensive, nor do I use them often, but my O2 has a slight problem just as you turn the volume up from nothing.


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## mikeaj

Some suggestions and thoughts:
   

 If there are only two gain settings, could you increase the difference between low and high gain?  I think on the E11, the settings are 2.5x and 4.5x, a 5.1 dB difference.  Something lower than 2.5x would help IEM users.  
 I think that bass boost like the E11 increases higher bass and midrange frequencies like 100 Hz and 200 Hz too much.  But that is better than on some other FiiO products, with even more boost to midrange.  Keep it at the lower frequencies, please.
 Are you including a charger for the batteries?


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## bowei006

Good question. Not allowing usage of E12 while it is charging would be ..not very good.


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## OK-Guy

when is the expected release date and will you offer a different colour housing?... cheers


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## richbass

e12 with docking (e9) port plzzzzzzz !!!!!!!!


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## Brooko

richbass said:


> e12 with docking (e9) port plzzzzzzz !!!!!!!!




Why? It's an amp only - not a DAC - so what possible advantage would there be in docking one amp with another one?


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## bowei006

Quote: 





richbass said:


> e12 with docking (e9) port plzzzzzzz !!!!!!!!


 
  Why would you need to "dock" the E12 Portable HEADPHONE AMPLIFIER to the E9 or E90K DESKTOP HEADPHONE AMPLIFIER? 
   
  All that would mean is that you would like to use the amps of the E12 in conjunction with the E9 or E90K which would only require you to run a output from the E12 or E9/E90K into the other device with a 3.5mm interconnect cable .


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## tzjin

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> [size=small]First, I don't want to use the word " High End " but any better word to describe it is the best headphone amp in our line up. from low to high, it is E6, E11, E12?[/size]


 
   
  "Flagship" may be the word you are looking for.
   
  This looks very intriguing, though at $100+, it will have many respectable competitors as well. Will this amp have the typical Fiio house sound? Could you also elaborate on the differences between this and the E11?


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## bowei006

Quote: 





tzjin said:


> "Flagship" may be the word you are looking for.
> 
> This looks very intriguing, though at $100+, it will have many respectable competitors as well. Will this amp have the typical Fiio house sound? Could you also elaborate on the differences between this and the E11?


 
  Ahh, Flagship!! There we go 
   
  FiiO house? I would say universal for the lower range of headphones and devices, warm with focus on bass and punch with a not too accurate or outright treble but decent enough to go along? That? Just my guess on what would be described as their house sound.


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## tzjin

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> FiiO house? I would say universal for the lower range of headphones and devices, warm with focus on bass and punch with a not too accurate or outright treble but decent enough to go along? That? Just my guess on what would be described as their house sound.


 
   
  Yep, that.


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## Mazer

Hmm, special edition with balanced output would be quite unique around that price point.


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## Xaverian

I've had my eye on Fiio products for a while now, and the E12 looks like it might just be the perfect amp for me to start with. Any news on the release date yet? I noticed on another thread that you said it was planned for July or August, is this still the case?


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## JamesFiiO

tzjin said:


> "Flagship" may be the word you are looking for.
> 
> This looks very intriguing, though at $100+, it will have many respectable competitors as well. Will this amp have the typical Fiio house sound? Could you also elaborate on the differences between this and the E11?




Thanks, it is the best word for E12.

E12 has two different version, and the price also depend on the batteries and the charger.

One 6 cells AAA/AA charger already cost about $25，the batteries will cost about $12.


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## JamesFiiO

xaverian said:


> I've had my eye on Fiio products for a while now, and the E12 looks like it might just be the perfect amp for me to start with. Any news on the release date yet? I noticed on another thread that you said it was planned for July or August, is this still the case?




Sorry the ETA is NOV


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## JamesFiiO

mazer said:


> Hmm, special edition with balanced output would be quite unique around that price point.




The problem is there are not any standard for the balance output jack.and there are not balance headphone except DIY version


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## jacknight

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> Yes, retail price will lest than 200usd. Higher than100usd


 
   
  IMO E12 will compete with jdslabs c421


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## tzjin

Quote: 





jacknight said:


> IMO E12 will compete with jdslabs c421


 

 JDS has the edge with that pretty aluminum case IMO.

 Don't forget about the UHA-4!


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## JamesFiiO

Is this kind of potentiometer is acceptable ? it can help control the thickness, we are worry about the quality of such kind of potentiometer.


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## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





tzjin said:


> JDS has the edge with that pretty aluminum case IMO.
> 
> Don't forget about the UHA-4!


 
   
  UHA-4 is portable DAC/AMP with small power output.


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## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





jacknight said:


> IMO E12 will compete with jdslabs c421


 
   
  The design will be more easy if we use build in li-ion battery like C421. the power is boost from +/ 3.7V.  
   
  In E12, the power supply does not need any boost and without any convert.  in SR71X, the power is supply by 2 9V battery, that is one important reason that
   
  they have very high sound quality.


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## tzjin

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> UHA-4 is portable DAC/AMP with small power output.


 
   
  Hey, no need to defend the E12! Given your track record, it's sure to be great amplifier! 
   
  IMO, the product itself speaks the loudest and the most clearly.


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## jacknight

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> The design will be more easy if we use build in li-ion battery like C421. the power is boost from +/ 3.7V.
> 
> In E12, the power supply does not need any boost and without any convert.  in SR71X, the power is supply by 2 9V battery, that is one important reason that
> 
> they have very high sound quality.


 
   
  so E12 will have great power, just say, do you think it will drive HD650 well?


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## mikeaj

Quote: 





jacknight said:


> so E12 will have great power, just say, do you think it will drive HD650 well?


 
   
  Maybe this is for FiiO to answer, but just for reference, with 6 AAA li-ion 10440 batteries, E12 could theoretically reach the power levels of the E9.  It depends on the output they design.
   
  As for driving certain headphones well, I don't really like that phrasing.  It depends on how loudly you listen, your expectations, and your preferences.  For many purposes, one could say that the E11 already drives the HD 650s very well, or even the E6.
   
   
   
   
   


jamesfiio said:


> Is this kind of potentiometer is acceptable ? it can help control the thickness, we are worry about the quality of such kind of potentiometer.


 
   
  Are you worried about mechanical quality or electrical quality?  I think that a sturdier, higher-performance option with better tracking is important for a product above $100.  An Alps, as originally mentioned, should probably be okay.


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## jacknight

Quote: 





mikeaj said:


> Maybe this is for FiiO to answer, but just for reference, with 6 AAA li-ion 10440 batteries, E12 could theoretically reach the power levels of the E9.  It depends on the output they design.
> 
> As for driving certain headphones well, I don't really like that phrasing.  It depends on how loudly you listen, your expectations, and your preferences.  For many purposes, one could say that the E11 already drives the HD 650s very well, or even the E6.
> 
> ...


 
   
  i mean not only loudness but also it can make the headphones "sing"


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## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





jacknight said:


> so E12 will have great power, just say, do you think it will drive HD650 well?


 
   
  OK, I agree with tzjin, products should answer your question when it is released . lol


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## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





> Are you worried about mechanical quality or electrical quality?  I think that a sturdier, higher-performance option with better tracking is important for a product above $100.  An Alps, as originally mentioned, should probably be okay.


 
   
  We are very careful not to take any risk because the quantity we sell is a big number so even 1% have problem it will be disaster to us. also it is not so convenient as the potentiometer installed in E10/E11/E9.


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## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





jacknight said:


> i mean not only loudness but also it can make the headphones "sing"


 
   
  Yes, loudness does not means everything, but if the output is so poor, will have problem to drive some headphones. The best way is select amp depend on what you need, some famous amps can only puch out
   
  very small power but it does not means it is not a great amps. but to FiiO, we will like to make a portable amp with " huge " output power, slim size, in affordable price.


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## OK-Guy

how about bi-amping internally?... my home-system is bi-amped & bi-wired which results in better definition of bass & treble... could this work in a portable set-up?


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## sashaw

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> The design will be more easy if we use build in li-ion battery like C421. the power is boost from +/ 3.7V.
> 
> In E12, the power supply does not need any boost and without any convert.  in SR71X, the power is supply by 2 9V battery, that is one important reason that
> 
> they have very high sound quality.


 
  2 9v batteries as power source would be great. We all don't need to worry about how many charges can the li-ion battery take. Personally, I don't like amp circuit with boost up voltages. Not to mention most good portable amps, such as, stepdance, LISA III, L3, etc., all takes 9V batteries.


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## bowei006

ok-guy said:


> how about bi-amping internally?... my home-system is bi-amped & bi-wired which results in better definition of bass & treble... could this work in a portable set-up?




Are you talking of two different internal dual op amps? If so then fiio on their previous designs generally use a pre amp and then main driving amp aalready.


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## OK-Guy

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> Are you talking of two different internal dual op amps? If so then fiio on their previous designs generally use a pre amp and then main driving amp aalready.


 
  it would be like a pre-amp and two main amps... one for mids & highs and the other for bass, the pre-amp would control things.
   
  works real well in my hi-fi set-up and certainly improves definition & soundstage... being quite new to all this I don't know if the same principles would work in a portable amp.


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## bowei006

Quote: 





ok-guy said:


> it would be like a pre-amp and two main amps... one for mids & highs and the other for bass, the pre-amp would control things.
> 
> works real well in my hi-fi set-up and certainly improves definition & soundstage... being quite new to all this I don't know if the same principles would work in a portable amp.


 
  I have that kind of setup in one of my amps. However it's more of pre amp and driving amp and "main" amp really for mine.


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## mikeaj

Quote: 





ok-guy said:


> it would be like a pre-amp and two main amps... one for mids & highs and the other for bass, the pre-amp would control things.
> 
> works real well in my hi-fi set-up and certainly improves definition & soundstage... being quite new to all this I don't know if the same principles would work in a portable amp.


 
   
  Maybe I'm not understanding you correctly, but if you're talking about one amp for mids/highs and another for bass, what's happening is that one amp is powering the woofers, while the other is connected to the tweeters.  There are two different transducers (drivers; things that move to make sound) each for the L and R channels—one that handles low frequencies and the other that handles the rest.  For headphones, there's only a single driver per ear cup, except in a few rare gimmicky gaming headsets.  You can roughly think of that as acting in parallel.
   
  We have a resident panda talking about multiple stages in an amplifier (sections connected together in series).  Pretty much everything that's not a CMoy has multiple sections like that, which work together as a whole.


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## OK-Guy

cheers for that... I was kinda thinking that it would be difficult to achieve especially as you have to bi-wired the speakers and amps (two pairs of cables and not the dedicated bi-wire ie 2-4 via a single amp), the problem I saw straight after posting was how to bi-wire the headphones....  I'm learning about all this malarkey so advice & a tad of education is especially welcomed.
   
  I'm having some real problems finding a solution to my portable set-up so figured on amp'ing as a way to power better headphones but I don't particularly want to alter the sound or soundstage that comes out of my Walkman-Z1070, I love the almost neutrality of the thing just gotta find the right stuff to go with it, which is turning out to be a bit of a nightmare.


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## Bocefuss4500

Definately looking forward to see what fiio comes up with been a customer for awhile like what they put out ....


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## bowei006

Quote: 





bocefuss4500 said:


> Definately looking forward to see what fiio comes up with been a customer for awhile like what they put out ....


 
  They just finished a design and final sample unit for a new 2.4G Wireless audio streamer..no details yet


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## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> They just finished a design and final sample unit for a new 2.4G Wireless audio streamer..no details yet


 
   
   
  We already make some demo samples of E12, that is why we still stick to 6 10440 battery, it is the best solution based on sound quality.


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## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





sashaw said:


> 2 9v batteries as power source would be great. We all don't need to worry about how many charges can the li-ion battery take. Personally, I don't like amp circuit with boost up voltages. Not to mention most good portable amps, such as, stepdance, LISA III, L3, etc., all takes 9V batteries.


 
   
  Total agree, there must have some reason that they use 2 9V batteries, and we don't want to make a clone LISA III, L3, or SR71A, and the thickness of this amps is not so portable too. The AAA size can keep the thickness to less than 20mm.


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## sashaw

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> Total agree, there must have some reason that they use 2 9V batteries, and we don't want to make a clone LISA III, L3, or SR71A, and the thickness of this amps is not so portable too. The AAA size can keep the thickness to less than 20mm.


 
   
  Yes, I notice their thickness. Looking forward to see E12. And please show us photo of your samples, cant wait to see them.


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## Typhoon859

What do you mean by "crosstalk"?


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## PurpleAngel

Just got a Fiio email
  New Fiio DAC D7 coming out and a new E7 the E07K.


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## bowei006

Quote: 





purpleangel said:


> Just got a Fiio email
> New Fiio DAC D7 coming out and a new E7 the E07K.


 
  D7? Similar to D3? Hmmm


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## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> D7? Similar to D3? Hmmm


 
  This new D7 DAC is listed as multi-channel,
  might be a DAC with Dolby built in.


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## bowei006

Quote: 





purpleangel said:


> This new D7 DAC is listed as multi-channel,
> might be a DAC with Dolby built in.


 

   
   
   
  Hopefully it will be good for gaming, if it is just a DAC then that is also fine.


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## jacknight

Quote: 





purpleangel said:


> Just got a Fiio email
> New Fiio DAC D7 coming out and a new E7 the E07K.


 
   
  is it above E10 level or not?


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## Typhoon859

E07K?...  I think this is what they said they were working on at the Android Supports Digital Output thread. 
   
  I wonder if it'll have the same or greater quality than the E17.  I'll wait until there are more details to say what it is I want and hopefully they tread carefully...


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## Parall3l

Quote: 





typhoon859 said:


> E07K?...  I think this is what they said they were working on at the Android Supports Digital Output thread.
> 
> I wonder if it'll have the same or greater quality than the E17.  I'll wait until there are more details to say what it is I want and hopefully they tread carefully...


 

 K seems to be a designation for revise versions, like the E09K. I'm guessing it's simply the old E7, but with E09K compatibilities.


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## ClieOS

E07K will be an upgraded models of E7, much like E09K is of E9.


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## Parall3l

I just hope there isn't an E17K. I got mine with the pre-order not so long ago. Although if FiiO can improve an amp's design within such a short time I guess it's ok. I'll be getting an E12 for free when it comes out (Thanks FiiO). I think I'm going to try and destroy some dollar store earbuds with it and post a video.


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## JamesFiiO

Now the number is not an important description for our products, we will name the upgraded model of ALPEN as ALPEN I , and them ALPEN 2, ALPEN 3, new ALPEN, great ALPEN, magic ALPEN, lol, just for fun.


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## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





jacknight said:


> is it above E10 level or not?


 
   
  D7 is a TV decoder, in US, some cable TV/HDTV come with multi-chanels audio signal which can be decoded by our D3, that is why we develop D7.


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## JamesFiiO

OK, please back to our flagship now, any idea about which mountain should we name it ?


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## Typhoon859

Quote: 





clieos said:


> E07K will be an upgraded models of E7, much like E09K is of E9.


 
   
  Hopefully.  And by that I'm guessing you mean that the DAC and amp will likely be the same.
   
  Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> D7 is a TV decoder, in US, some cable TV/HDTV come with multi-chanels audio signal which can be decoded by our D3, that is why we develop D7.


 
   
  How would it connect, through optical?  Or, am I missing the point of it?  Because if that's the case, I don't see the point of it in relation to specifically TVs.


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## ClieOS

jamesfiio said:


> OK, please back to our flagship now, any idea about which mountain should we name it ?




Kilauea?


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## bowei006

FiiO E12 Rocky Mountain 

Majestic and new and powerful. A force.


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## CJG888

K2

Save "Everest" for the TOTL desktop.......


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## ChicaneBT

Fiio E12 Eyjafjallajökull
   
  But maybe a US based or easily pronounced volcano is a better choice 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.
   
  Fiio E12 Kilauea
   
  Or pick another US based volcano: http://pubs.usgs.gov/gip/volcus/ustext.html
   
  Mountains are big and high but the E12 has an unprecedented force so a volcano seems like a good fit.


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## jacknight

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> OK, please back to our flagship now, any idea about which mountain should we name it ?


 
   
  how about mont blanc in europe?
   
  or krakatau (hard to spell) the volcano in indonesia, from wikipedia:
   
   


> *Krakatoa* (Indonesian: _*Krakatau*_) was a volcanic island made of lava[2] in the Sunda Strait between the islands of Java and Sumatra inIndonesia. The name is used for the island group, the main island (also called Rakata), and the volcano as a whole. The volcano exploded in 1883, killing 36,417 people. The explosion is considered to be the loudest sound ever heard in modern history, with reports of it being heard nearly 3,000 miles (4,800 km) from its point of origin. The shock wave from the explosion was recorded on barographs around the globe.


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## RingingEars

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> OK, please back to our flagship now, any idea about which mountain should we name it ?


 

 Sierra... Fiio E12 Sierra


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## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





cjg888 said:


> K2
> Save "Everest" for the TOTL desktop.......


 
   
   
 Everest is for our E19, the flagship of our portable DAC/AMP


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## jacknight

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> Everest is for our E19, the flagship of our portable DAC/AMP


 
   
  wow...already? how many new stuff fiio will launch?


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## bowei006

Quote: 





jacknight said:


> wow...already? how many new stuff fiio will launch?


 
  As of right now
  D7
  E07K
  E02i
  E12
  FiiOs new 2.4GHz audio streamer
  E19
   
  so yeah.......


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## bowei006

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> Everest is for our E19, the flagship of our portable DAC/AMP


 
  Any details on this? I guess your next device will be FiiO K2?


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## tzjin

So E19 will be your next desktop amplifier?


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## bowei006

Quote: 





tzjin said:


> So E19 will be your next desktop amplifier?


 
   
   


> the flagship of our portable DAC/AMP


 
  I'm gonna guess....that as FiiO put it in super big letters that....it may just be a portable DAC and amp. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  So E17 successor. 
   
   
  I think FiiO should just make another overal thread....as ....wel you know....people want info!


----------



## tzjin

BDerp.
   
  Sorry, can't believe I missed those big fat letters. Been in front of a screen too long.


----------



## bowei006

Well back to the E12, I wonder if FiiO has decided on
  What power output it is, it said 500mW @ 32 ohms and 800mW @ 32 ohms by FiiO.
  What battery or power system they will go with, their  FAcebook page held a voting where you could vote. Most including me voted on best audio performance and power but with the need to have the same "problem" as the E12 with no use while charging..... -___-
   
  And then comes their ALPS potentiometer, too thin, and problems, etc etc.
   
  And then their DIY version, details and the case and all those quality control things


----------



## JamesFiiO

Please do me a favor , help us choose the power of E12, 
   
  Vote address 1: www.facebook.com/FiiOAUDIO,  it is also the best way to get the newest information from us if you have facebook a/c.
   
  Vote address 2: http://www.head-fi.org/t/621162/what-kind-of-power-supply-will-you-like-to-see-in-our-flagship-portable-amp-e12
   
  And we believe it is the best way to help us and yourself. lol.


----------



## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> Well back to the E12, I wonder if FiiO has decided on
> What power output it is, it said 500mW @ 32 ohms and 800mW @ 32 ohms by FiiO.
> What battery or power system they will go with, their  FAcebook page held a voting where you could vote. Most including me voted on best audio performance and power but with the need to have the same "problem" as the E12 with no use while charging..... -___-
> 
> ...


 
   
  Since the design is not finish, the current version is 800mW@32 ohms, but it will be better to say > 500mW@32ohms, lol.
   
  We already promise two fans on facebook that we will send them free E12 because they give us some very good idea.  think about it, you may also have the chance to win free FiiO in the future.


----------



## bowei006

I skimmed through your page, what will the competition be? Will I be legible (able) to participate.

Cool, FiiO giveaways.


----------



## Parall3l

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> Since the design is not finish, the current version is 800mW@32 ohms, but it will be better to say > 500mW@32ohms, lol.
> 
> We already promise two fans on facebook that we will send them free E12 because they give us some very good idea.  think about it, you may also have the chance to win free FiiO in the future.


 

 I'm one of them


----------



## bowei006

Congrats!


----------



## Parall3l

You know what would be a cool promotional video? The E12 destroying some headphone/earphone at max volume.


----------



## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





parall3l said:


> You know what would be a cool promotional video? The E12 destroying some headphone/earphone at max volume.


 
   
  Cool, but the user will worry about their expensive IEM. lol


----------



## bowei006

How about some guy listening to an HD800 out of an iPod using a 1/4 inch to 1/8 inch adapter(stupid, I know) and looking at it with a "what is going on face" Then. An E12 (rocky mountain?) drops out and smacks through the ceilings. HE looks at it, and then cut to next scene with him happily using it.....albeit......again may be stupid with an HD800 haha.
   
  And then cue your logo and name: Fei ao.
   
  I'm going to take a guess and say that your name literally means Flying pride, or flying proud, flying with pride.


----------



## sashaw

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> How about some guy listening to an HD800 out of an iPod using a 1/4 inch to 1/8 inch adapter(stupid, I know) and looking at it with a "what is going on face" Then. An E12 (rocky mountain?) drops out and smacks through the ceilings. HE looks at it, and then cut to next scene with him happily using it.....albeit......again may be stupid with an HD800 haha.
> 
> And then cue your logo and name: Fei ao.
> 
> I'm going to take a guess and say that your name literally means Flying pride, or flying proud, flying with pride.


 
   
  This reminds me the LYNX ad. The guy falt through the bathroom floor and dropped into a female dance class.


----------



## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> How about some guy listening to an HD800 out of an iPod using a 1/4 inch to 1/8 inch adapter(stupid, I know) and looking at it with a "what is going on face" Then. An E12 (rocky mountain?) drops out and smacks through the ceilings. HE looks at it, and then cut to next scene with him happily using it.....albeit......again may be stupid with an HD800 haha.
> 
> And then cue your logo and name: Fei ao.
> 
> I'm going to take a guess and say that your name literally means Flying pride, or flying proud, flying with pride.


 
   
  There are a famous song, " I believe I can fly " , that many be the best meaning of FiiO in Chinese. we are very lucky because FiiO is quite simple, short and easy be remembered. and the name in Chinese also the same.
   
  BTW, I am very proud of that because I create and design the LOGO , name. lol


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> There are a famous song, " I believe I can fly " , that many be the best meaning of FiiO in Chinese. we are very lucky because FiiO is quite simple, short and easy be remembered. and the name in Chinese also the same.
> 
> BTW, I am very proud of that because I create and design the LOGO , name. lol


 
  Oh James, haha. I believe I can fly!?? Most people will start laughing if you tell them, that that is what FiiO more or less stands for or means! I'll tell them it literally means flying with pride..but I believe I can fly is the official FiiO translation haha!
   
  Good job on it James. I like the captialized O at the end. Kinda makes it "pop".
   
  Are you the one doing the official FiiOAudio facebook page?


----------



## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> Oh James, haha. I believe I can fly!?? Most people will start laughing if you tell them, that that is what FiiO more or less stands for or means! I'll tell them it literally means flying with pride..but I believe I can fly is the official FiiO translation haha!
> 
> Good job on it James. I like the captialized O at the end. Kinda makes it "pop".
> 
> Are you the one doing the official FiiOAudio facebook page?


 
   
  Yes, I just decide to run the page by myself. oh, I spend too many time to keep in touch with our fans and users. not good to my colleague.


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> Yes, I just decide to run the page by myself. oh, I spend too many time to keep in touch with our fans and users. not good to my colleague.


 
  It is all good James! Sometimes it's hard for me to tell if I am talking to you, Sunny or another FiiO employee.


----------



## Parall3l

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> Cool, but the user will worry about their expensive IEM. lol


 

 When I receive my E12 I'll personally do this with some cheap headphones from the $1 bin. I doubt anyone would think that $1 IEMs that is only capable of taking 20mw max is the same as a CIEM or something.


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





parall3l said:


> When I receive my E12 I'll personally do this with some cheap headphones from the $1 bin. I doubt anyone would think that $1 IEMs that is only capable of taking 20mw max is the same as a CIEM or something.


 
  Let's hope the E12 will make dreams come true and will like the E11 redefine teh budget market once again...but now in the mid fi market!


----------



## Gallade475

might i ask, what headphones are you using for your r&d? i heard that fiio used hd650s for the e9 testing, but i dont know if it is entirely true.


----------



## jacknight

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> Everest is for our E19, the flagship of our portable DAC/AMP


 
   
  waiting for E19, when E19 will released world wide?


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





jacknight said:


> waiting for E19, when E19 will released world wide?


 
  I think it may take a bit.
   
http://www.fiio.com.cn/news/index.aspx?ID=233
   
  The E17 is kinda new. That articles shows units FiiO will be demoing to customers at fairs soon. It seems they are putting out and giving demonstrations for all the units they can get running at the time. As it says Prototype. Since it doesn't appear, I'll guess it's not even ready for a late year prototype.


----------



## wullymc

I am anxious to hear more about the E12.  I am in the market for a new headphone amp.  I have been going up...E3 to E6 next to E12?
   
  I know that it is said over $100 and less than $200.  I can't see it costing as much as a E17.  I am hoping for some good first impressions....
   
  Good on FiiO to keep the product rollout coming.  I like to see companies getting better and for the price they have my support! 
   
  PS: Is Focalprice.com an authorized dealer?  I just bought a L9 from them.  The others I bought from the authorized dealer in Canada.


----------



## ClieOS

wullymc said:


> I can't see it costing as much as a E17.




You'll be surprised how expensive "good" parts can go. Opamp can go for a few cent to $50.each.


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





clieos said:


> You'll be surprised how expensive "good" parts can go. Opamp can go for a few cent to $50.each.


 
  In Hong Kong, authentic Elite op amps from RS or somethign were like a few dollars if I remember.


----------



## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





wullymc said:


> I am anxious to hear more about the E12.  I am in the market for a new headphone amp.  I have been going up...E3 to E6 next to E12?
> 
> I know that it is said over $100 and less than $200.  I can't see it costing as much as a E17.  I am hoping for some good first impressions....
> 
> ...


 
   
  The price is depended on what OP amp , one OPA627 cost from $12.5 to $62.9, you can calculate how much will be cost for two OPA627.
   
  The production of such op amp for hi end audio is very limited so hard to buy it in very cheap price. the price ban be check on TI
   
   http://www.ti.com/product/opa627


----------



## Parall3l

I wonder what the E18 is going to be like. Is it just the E17 with Android digital out capabilities?


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





parall3l said:


> I wonder what the E18 is going to be like. Is it just the E17 with Android digital out capabilities?


 
  FiiO would usually improve on their designs even more.
   
  I think a bigger question is how it will work? Is it some new univeral device that works with every Android device with OTG support no matter what!? Does it require Cyanogen!? And lots of other questions.
   
  Also...we need a cool name. We are currently on Android 4.1.x Jelly Bean 
   
  So FiiO E18 Jordan? In recognition of the Jordan river? Doesn't always have to be mountain maybe but it sounds cool to have a Android DAC with a letter following something that Google is doing with
   
*C*UPCAKE
*D*ONUT
*E*CLAIR
*F*ROYO
*G*INGERBREAD
*H*ONEYCOMB
*I*CE CREAM SANDWHICH
*J*ELLY BEAN
   
  They are in alphabetical order in case it wasn't clear


----------



## GoodToGo1

No async capabilities in any Dac/amps?


----------



## wullymc

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> The price is depended on what OP amp , one OPA627 cost from $12.5 to $62.9, you can calculate how much will be cost for two OPA627.
> 
> The production of such op amp for hi end audio is very limited so hard to buy it in very cheap price. the price ban be check on TI
> 
> http://www.ti.com/product/opa627


 
   
  Thanks for the link.  I didn't know how much the op amps go for.  At most I've heard is $20.  I know FiiO can keep the $$$ down for this amp 
   
  Thanks again for the info!


----------



## sygyzy

I was thinking of picking up an E17 for my laptop. Should I be waiting for the E18 or E19? 

 As an aside, I have a Galaxy Nexus. I thought the issue with USB Audio on Android devices was a driver issue. What does *Parall3l *mean by the E18 is going to allow for Android digital out? What does the DAC (FiiO)  have to do with anything?


----------



## Evshrug

FiiO!
I love the name, it was very interesting even before learning the meaning to it. And how could someone not like "I believe I can fly," it's a great uplifting song! Too bad the song has been used for an ironic joke about people or things that have failed to fly. Feiao, the name and Logo are great for identifying your brand, you should be proud!

On the E12, I think it will be very interesting when it's released November/December (on the typical Western calendar, I'm mildly curious what that would be on the Chinese calendar?). Between $100-$200 USD seems reasonable for a product selling alongside the other portables, I'd assume that at its level of quality the price will have about the same relation to the E17 as the current E11 has with the E7.
I'm not sure I see the strength of the target market though... I understand that the E12 is going to be a very powerful yet very slim portable amp, but by the time a consumer needs such an amp, aren't they using a full-size headphone such as an AKG K702 or Sennheiser 650HD? My point is why would you use an amp and music source that fits in your pocket when it is made for headphones you wouldn't walk around wearing anyway? Feel free to explain.
That said, I do believe it is good for the FiiO company to have a "flagship" amp to make a statement about what they believe is a top-quality amp. Kind of like how the Bugatti Veyron car is a statement vehicle for Volkswagon, though it is completely impractical even to those who can satisfy any whim. Now, the E12 wouldn't be at that extreme, but it would represent what the engineers are capable of designing for quality while at an economy price unmatched by other portable amp boutiques. I think that, even if it wouldn't be as popular as the cheaper E6/E11 or a desktop amp, it would make a statement that will influence the market.

With everything I've said about audiophile headphones being more "Transportable" than portable (typically), I'm still considering the E11 or E12 as an all-around amp to use on the go with my car and closed headphones and at home with my AKG Q701... Or is the product lineup intended to serve me as getting an E9 or E09k for my reference headphone, while getting an E6 for portable use? Either way, I've been very happy with the L3, L11, and E5 products FiiO made for my needs so far  L11 feeding music from my iPod, to my E5, which gives extra juice to my car's weak receiver, has made it sound like I put in a whole new speaker system for just $35


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> FiiO!
> I love the name, it was very interesting even before learning the meaning to it. And how could someone not like "I believe I can fly," it's a great uplifting song! Too bad the song has been used for an ironic joke about people or things that have failed to fly. Feiao, the name and Logo are great for identifying your brand, you should be proud!
> On the E12, I think it will be very interesting when it's released November/December (on the typical Western calendar, I'm mildly curious what that would be on the Chinese calendar?). Between $100-$200 USD seems reasonable for a product selling alongside the other portables, I'd assume that at its level of quality the price will have about the same relation to the E17 as the current E11 has with the E7.
> I'm not sure I see the strength of the target market though... I understand that the E12 is going to be a very powerful yet very slim portable amp, but by the time a consumer needs such an amp, aren't they using a full-size headphone such as an AKG K702 or Sennheiser 650HD? My point is why would you use an amp and music source that fits in your pocket when it is made for headphones you wouldn't walk around wearing anyway? Feel free to explain.
> ...


 
  We have the same calendar. They are approx 12 hours ahead in the time of things but if it's December..unless you are at top or end of the month, the Chinese will be in december too.
   
  E12 does look promising but I won't be taking my 701's anywhere.


----------



## Evshrug

sygyzy said:


> I was thinking of picking up an E17 for my laptop. Should I be waiting for the E18 or E19?
> 
> 
> As an aside, I have a Galaxy Nexus. I thought the issue with USB Audio on Android devices was a driver issue. What does *Parall3l *mean by the E18 is going to allow for Android digital out? What does the DAC (FiiO)  have to do with anything?




I think somebody typed E18 by accident instead of E19. As far as "should," you need to ask yourself if the E17 has the right mix of features for you. It is one of the best portable Amp/DAC combo components right now, with nice hardware "boosts" (less quality loss than a software EQ). You know a DAC is a Digital to Analogue Converter, right? So instead of using a soundcard in your laptop or desktop, the E17's DAC section would convert your audio from digital bits to analogue waveforms. It seems FiiO is making a portable Amp lineup – E02i, E6, E11, E12 – a portable amp/DAC combo lineup – E7, E10 (which can't act as a standalone amp for MP3 players), E17, and E19 – a standalone DAC line – D3, D5, D7 – and they have two desktop amps – E9 & E09k, A1.

I don't know much about bypassing the internal DAC of an Android smartphone like the Galaxy Nexus, but I have been happy with the built-in DACs of my portable devices, still seeing a clean effect from sending a line-out signal to an external amp. I think you wouldn't hear much difference using an external DAC unless your audio files are large with at least "lossless" compression and a high sampling rate.


----------



## Mr Newyear

I think the name should be "Fiio E12 Olympus" (From mount olympus house of greek gods or olympus mons) because it would be out of this world! It would also be a reference to the meaning of Fiio as you have to "fly" to Mars and Mount Olympus (as attempted by Bellerophon on Pegasus). Just my thoughts


----------



## Evshrug

bowei006 said:


> We have the same calendar. They are approx 12 hours ahead in the time of things but if it's December..unless you are at top or end of the month, the Chinese will be in december too.
> 
> E12 does look promising but I won't be taking my 701's anywhere.




First point: good to know 

2nd point: me neither. I think the E12 would work well for all my headphones, but I think my headphones that would benefit the most wouldn't make use of the E12's portability. The E12 might work awesome with V-MODA's new full-sized headphones though 



mr newyear said:


> I think the name should be "Fiio E12 Olympus" (From mount olympus house of greek gods or olympus mons) because it would be out of this world! It would also be a reference to the meaning of Fiio as you have to "fly" to Mars and Mount Olympus (as attempted by Bellerophon on Pegasus). Just my thoughts




Olympus would be cool! Greek mythology would work well, as long as FiiO doesn't make any products called "Icarus" 
Unless... They want to make a "bad boy bass monster," lol!


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> First point: good to know
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  FiiO has a generally universal sound
   
  The E18 and E19 are differnt things at this moment. As of right now both are a ways off and the only info is that E19 is upgrade to the E17 and E18 is an Android DAC


----------



## Evshrug

bowei006 said:


> FiiO has a generally universal sound



I agree, in fact it is a characteristic that I admire about FiiO products, along with the production quality they bring to entry-level products. The "Icarus" bass monster thing was a joke, because the myth of Icarus is about a father who builds wax wings for his son Icarus, but the son is too proud and flies too high. Icarus gets too close to the sun, his wax wings melt, and he plummets back to earth in a fireball that creates the Sahara desert.
FiiO is not an "Icarus" story however, because they *don't* have cheap "waxen" build quality like similar products from EBay, and they support their products.



			
				bowei006 said:
			
		

> .The E18 and E19 are different things at this moment. As of right now both are a ways off and the only info is that E19 is upgrade to the E17 and E18 is an Android DAC



Oh, ok. This thread is the first I've heard of either products being in development, to be honest. I think it is great FiiO is creating an upgrade path for their users.

Back to the E12, I want to point out that I'll happily trade the ability to charge and listen at the same time for the benefit of user-replaceable AAA batteries. I got the E5 almost right when it came out, and through heavy use I've noticed that the life of the battery is starting to fade. I like that I could buy spare batteries at a gas station for the E12 if the charge runs out, and that I could buy new rechargables for the amp when it's included batteries die perminantly. I think I voted for the AAA option before, I really believe it's the best compromise.


----------



## Mr Newyear

Quote: 





> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Haha I completely forgot about Icarus. We definitely do not want that happening


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





mr newyear said:


> Haha I completely forgot about Icarus. We definitely do not want that happening


 
  Their E02i Rocky has a nice bass boosting forumua. A bit muddy and more of a consumer bass boost but with the 500mW to 800mW of the E12 and a serious good bass boost. It may as well just be a bass monster
   
  but the name Icarus would not be good for FiiO
   
  FiiO by literal chinese translation means Flying with pride or flying with integrity. You can change the second word to honor or any prideful word but literal everyday translation as FiiO put out if "I believe I can fly"
   
  The tale of icarus would be of someone or icarus himself getting too full of himself and despite some warnings, flew too close to the sun and got burned and fell back down...NOT a good name for FiiO. Don't use it.


----------



## Mr Newyear

Quote: 





> The tale of icarus would be of someone or icarus himself getting too full of himself and despite some warnings, flew too close to the sun and got burned and fell back down...NOT a good name for FiiO. Don't use it.


 
  Exactly. It probably wouldn't even make sense as Icarus is not a mountain. I still think E12 Olympus sounds pretty epic


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





mr newyear said:


> Exactly. It probably wouldn't even make sense as Icarus is not a mountain. I still think E12 Olympus sounds pretty epic


 
  Olympus does indeed sound very nice!
   
  They don't need to stick with mountains but the term and mythology of Icarus goes together with FiiO's name and imply's in a mythical sense that FiiO will get burned or drop out with the E12.....


----------



## Brooko

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> I'm not sure I see the strength of the target market though... I understand that the E12 is going to be a very powerful yet very slim portable amp, but by the time a consumer needs such an amp, aren't they using a full-size headphone such as an AKG K702 or Sennheiser 650HD? My point is why would you use an amp and music source that fits in your pocket when it is made for headphones you wouldn't walk around wearing anyway? Feel free to explain.


 
  Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> E12 does look promising but I won't be taking my 701's anywhere.


 
   
  I think I can explain this one - or my use for a powerful portable amp anyway.  I have an Arrow 4G - so will not be ever needing an E12.  I use the Arrow quite often with my DT880 600ohm or K701, or even my HD600s when:
  [a] I'm listening around the house - ie in another room, away from my main listening set-up.
* If I ever travel away - eg holiday to meet my family - I usually take at least 2 full sized headphones.  We have a favourite holiday spot on the sea coast.  Because I don't see them that often - it's nice to 'chill out' with my brothers and sisters - introduce them to any new music I have etc.  None of them are really into higher end gear - but they do appreciate it.  The dual HP outs on the Arrow make it very enjoyable.  Has been quite fun using binaural recorings (like the barber shop) with younger nieces and nephews as well.
*


----------



## CashNotCredit

Quote: 





brooko said:


> I think I can explain this one - or my use for a powerful portable amp anyway.  I have an Arrow 4G - so will not be ever needing an E12.  I use the Arrow quite often with my DT880 600ohm or K701, or even my HD600s when:
> [a] I'm listening around the house - ie in another room, away from my main listening set-up.
> * If I ever travel away - eg holiday to meet my family - I usually take at least 2 full sized headphones.  We have a favourite holiday spot on the sea coast.  Because I don't see them that often - it's nice to 'chill out' with my brothers and sisters - introduce them to any new music I have etc.  None of them are really into higher end gear - but they do appreciate it.  The dual HP outs on the Arrow make it very enjoyable.  Has been quite fun using binaural recorings (like the barber shop) with younger nieces and nephews as well.
> *


*

   
  ^This

 Plus, even though it may not be usable on the morning commute, it definitely is nice for people who want to listen to their high-end headphones at the office. Carrying around a large and heavy amp is impractical for office use, but if someone is going to be listening to music for 3-4 hours straight while working everyday, they're going to want to use their top-of-the-line gear. The E12 lets people do that without being large and resource-intensive.
  Quote:  






			...but literal everyday translation as FiiO put out if "I believe I can fly"
		
Click to expand...

 
  FiiO Space Jam: Music from and Inspired by the Motion Picture?

  
*


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





cashnotcredit said:


> ^This
> 
> Plus, even though it may not be usable on the morning commute, it definitely is nice for people who want to listen to their high-end headphones at the office. Carrying around a large and heavy amp is impractical for office use, but if someone is going to be listening to music for 3-4 hours straight while working everyday, they're going to want to use their top-of-the-line gear. The E12 lets people do that without being large and resource-intensive.
> FiiO Space Jam: Music from and Inspired by the Motion Picture?


 
  Make a cool FiiO video!
   
  Quote: 





brooko said:


> I think I can explain this one - or my use for a powerful portable amp anyway.  I have an Arrow 4G - so will not be ever needing an E12.  I use the Arrow quite often with my DT880 600ohm or K701, or even my HD600s when:
> [a] I'm listening around the house - ie in another room, away from my main listening set-up.
> * If I ever travel away - eg holiday to meet my family - I usually take at least 2 full sized headphones.  We have a favourite holiday spot on the sea coast.  Because I don't see them that often - it's nice to 'chill out' with my brothers and sisters - introduce them to any new music I have etc.  None of them are really into higher end gear - but they do appreciate it.  The dual HP outs on the Arrow make it very enjoyable.  Has been quite fun using binaural recorings (like the barber shop) with younger nieces and nephews as well.
> *


*

  I did the same when I had the E17 but I have since just stayed desktop. TF10's are incomming my way so I need to do that even less but I get what it means. 500mW at the very least to 800mW is quite A LOT OF POWER for such headhones
*


----------



## Evshrug

brooko said:


> I think I can explain this one - or my use for a powerful portable amp anyway.  I have an Arrow 4G - so will not be ever needing an E12.  I use the Arrow quite often with my DT880 600ohm or K701, or even my HD600s when:
> A] I'm listening around the house - ie in another room, away from my main listening set-up.
> B] If I ever travel away - eg holiday to meet my family - I usually take at least 2 full sized headphones.  We have a favourite holiday spot on the sea coast.  Because I don't see them that often - it's nice to 'chill out' with my brothers and sisters - introduce them to any new music I have etc.  None of them are really into higher end gear - but they do appreciate it.  The dual HP outs on the Arrow make it very enjoyable.  Has been quite fun using binaural recorings (like the barber shop) with younger nieces and nephews as well.



Thanks for the thought, sounds fairly reasonable. Also to the other post that mentioned transport to/from the office, I hope to do that.


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

Will E12 be able to use while charging? This is a big flaw for me for E11 personally and why I wouldn't concider one. Also how many bass boost settings are planned? Any chance to add more than the 2 on E11, especially at least one lower one. I don't know how E11 is configured but I'd personally opt for +1.5dB boost, 3dB boost and 5-6dB boost.


----------



## bowei006

If fiio is going withtheir public announced battery config then yes. Charging while use will be a feature.


----------



## Evshrug

rpgwizard said:


> Will E12 be able to use while charging? This is a big flaw for me for E11 personally and why I wouldn't concider one. Also how many bass boost settings are planned? Any chance to add more than the 2 on E11, especially at least one lower one. I don't know how E11 is configured but I'd personally opt for +1.5dB boost, 3dB boost and 5-6dB boost.




Personally, I think the two bass boost settings from the E11 plus one midbass _reducing_ setting would be great, as bass boost can be very fun but many headphones and music genres could benefit from tighter bass control. Gaming too, to make explosions less disorienting 

Then again, I'm not everyone. I've noticed other present and former violinists seem keen on tight, controlled bass in their music.


----------



## JamesFiiO

Some updated information about our E12,
   
1, We already named our E12 as Mont Blanc, 
  
Mont Blanc is the highest mountain in the Alps, Western Europe, and the European Union. It rises 4,810.45 m (15,782 ft) above sea level and is ranked 11th in the world in topographic prominence. It is also sometimes known as _*La Dame blanche*_ (French for "the White Lady") or _*Il Bianco*_ (Italian for "the White One").
   
   
   
2, The Mont Blanc may automatic switch the charge current between 450mAh and 800mAh so you can either charge it with USB ports or a Wall AC charger .
   
    It is the first time we design an intelligent circuit to test what kind of charger it is connect to, this can help decrease the charge time when using some high
   
   current output charge and still safe to charged by a USB port in PC/Laptop.
   
3, Mont Blanc can be use during charging, the power is a build in 11V li-ion rechargeable battery, the supply power will be about +/- 10V， and the -10v is
   
   converted from 11V. the USB 5V power will boost to 14V so it can used to charge the build in 11V battery.
   
4, Bass Boost still there , but only 2 option, " ON " and " OFF ". 
   
5, We will try to put the Crossfeed inside it, but this is not a promise because it is not a necessary to our R/D department. sometimes we have to learn give up
   somethings but not try to put everything inside it. 
   
6, The thickness is about 14mm, it is not the most slim portable amp, but maybe it is the most slim amp which can push out at least 700mW power.


----------



## phantompersona

finally some juicy info


----------



## sashaw

Nice, it's coming. Any photo to show what it really looks like?


----------



## CJG888

Just to get this straight: are we talking about a cheap-ish portable amp capable of driving orthos? If yes, this is extremely interesting.....


----------



## Craigster75

One of my frustrations with the Ell is that the battery dies without warning and usually at the worst possible time.  I think it will be important to have a low battery indicator, preferably one that works in steps by indicating power at 50% and less than 25%/.
  
  Also, up/down volume should be marked larger and more clearly, maybe even with raised lettering.  When I use my E11 on the go, it is difficult for me to determine which way to turn the dial if I am in the middle of a run.


----------



## Xaverian

Quote: 





cjg888 said:


> Just to get this straight: are we talking about a cheap-ish portable amp capable of driving orthos? If yes, this is extremely interesting.....


 
  For the Hifiman He- series (namely He-400) I've heard that 1W output is best. Would this really be capable of driving those. ( If yes, I am 100% guaranteed to buy this amp - eventually ).

 This amp is looking more and more appealing in these last few days... Any idea on the cost yet feiao? It's a big issue for us students.


----------



## deaddingo

I have been reading this thread with interest.   I have no idea why I want one, but I know I do  (I am still new to all this audiophile stuff but am already addicted since I got my TF10 reshells)


----------



## firev1

I rather have low noise than crossfeed, lower gain settings will be better. 3 gain switch will be nice or having the first gain mode really low.


----------



## mikeaj

Quote: 





xaverian said:


> For the Hifiman He- series (namely He-400) I've heard that 1W output is best. Would this really be capable of driving those. ( If yes, I am 100% guaranteed to buy this amp - eventually ).
> 
> This amp is looking more and more appealing in these last few days... Any idea on the cost yet feiao? It's a big issue for us students.


 
   
  Just for reference, on Tyll's test setup at InnerFidelity, it takes only 33 mW (into 51 ohms) to drive HE-400 to 110 dB SPL, 204 mW (into 47 ohms) to drive HE-500 to 110 dB SPL, about like 75 mW (into 59 ohms) to drive the least sensitive of three LCD-2 samples to 110 dB SPL, 87 mW (into 58 ohms) to drive LCD-2 Rev2 to 110 dB SPL.  That's already a very loud level.
   
  If it's something like 700 mW or more into 32 ohms or whatever, then it can cover all of the above headphones unless you listen even louder than that.  As for how it will sound with those headphones, we have no clue on that yet, but FiiO usually does a pretty good job.
   
  I think price was suggested as something between $100 and $200—more than E11 of course but not way outside of other FiiO products.  Maybe I'm misremembering that though.


----------



## yellowssm

subscribed


----------



## TheKarakiri

Can't wait to hear it!


----------



## FCO2013

I just got the E11....
   
  ****
   
  haha


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





fco2013 said:


> I just got the E11....
> 
> ****
> 
> haha


 
  The E12 isn't a replacement for the E11. The E11 is a $60 portable amplifier, if the E12 was an upgrade it would also be a roughly $60 portable amplifier. The E12 is another seriesed amp that FiiO has.


----------



## TheKarakiri




----------



## feigeibomber

Just found a teaser image.. for those who want to see



Spoiler: Warning%3A%20Spoiler!


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





feigeibomber said:


> Just found a teaser image.. for those who want to see
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning%3A%20Spoiler!


 
  I see, not very suprising 
   
  FiiO has or had represenatives in berlin last week or the previous week for a big audio or technology fair. They had a or a few(don't know) samples of the E12 there as FiiO's facebook page says. The guy that has the E12 in that picture is from Berlin and is friends with some of the FiiO reps 
   
  I had to dig a little


----------



## SoulSyde

Does anyone know if it's brushed aluminum or plastic made to look that way?


----------



## ClieOS

It is brushed aluminium


----------



## Swimsonny

subbed!


----------



## KElyas

Hi, sorry for going off topic but I didn't want to start a whole new thread so I thought I'd just ask here. What exactly does an amp do?


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





kelyas said:


> Hi, sorry for going off topic but I didn't want to start a whole new thread so I thought I'd just ask here. What exactly does an amp do?


 
  You wouldn't need to start a new thread as there are plenty of threads on head fi that answer it as well as across the net but here:
  http://youtu.be/Hyjt83X8nQE
   
  My video of it. IT's mainly for beginner so I omit some of the super niche things and some things aren't too or as completely true in super high price ranges. A general simplified idea of what it is basically


----------



## KElyas

Cool, thanks for the video


----------



## SoulSyde

Quote: 





clieos said:


> It is brushed aluminium


 
   
  If the initial reviews are positive, I'm sold.


----------



## Dyaems

i thought it was really thin, like pico slim thin. based on the prototype pics =(
   
  still waiting for fiio to release an amp that is half as thick as E7/E17 =)


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





dyaems said:


> i thought it was really thin, like pico slim thin. based on the prototype pics =(
> 
> still waiting for fiio to release an amp that is half as thick as E7/E17 =)


 
  Half may be too much, E12 is said to be around iPhone 4 thickness, around so about 3/4 of E17 thickness


----------



## Dyaems

yup, it is still thick for me =)
   
  still hoping fiio can do it in the future =)


----------



## JamesFiiO

the thickness is 14.4mm, hard to make it more slim cause we have to put a huge battery inside it.


----------



## Evshrug

jamesfiio said:


> the thickness is 14.4mm, hard to make it more slim cause we have to put a huge battery inside it.




Wow, that can't be much thicker than my E5 including the clip, for a much more powerful amp. Personally, great battery = awesome, and less than a centimeter & a half is really thin! I think some audiophiles would be willing to power an amp off their own lifeforce, haha, I'll stick with a battery


----------



## Evshrug

dyaems said:


> yup, it is still thick for me =)
> 
> still hoping fiio can do it in the future =)




The FiiO E6 is just 9mm thin, and light enough to clip to your belt or shirt. Hard to imagine that would still be too thick for you, unless you are trying to put it inside headphones or some other DIY (Do It Yourself) project.


----------



## JamesFiiO




----------



## Evshrug

jamesfiio said:


>




Oooooh!

I kinda miss the volume protector band from the E11, but I can tell it shouldn't be an issue since I can see the volume knob is recessed into the top ridge of the amp. And of course overall the brushed metal look and shiny input/output jacks are very handsome. Maybe the interplay of black and gold could be played up a bit with brass accents? But overall, I refer you to my first statement of "Ooooooh!"


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


>


 
  Can't wait to see what is inside of it.


----------



## Craigster75

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Oooooh!
> I kinda miss the volume protector band from the E11, but I can tell it shouldn't be an issue since I can see the volume knob is recessed into the top ridge of the amp. And of course overall the brushed metal look and shiny input/output jacks are very handsome. Maybe the interplay of black and gold could be played up a bit with brass accents? But overall, I refer you to my first statement of "Ooooooh!"


 

 Very nice, but where is the bass boost?


----------



## JamesFiiO

On the other side, Bass boost and Crossfeed ( maybe )


----------



## Craigster75

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> On the other side, Bass boost and Crossfeed ( maybe )


 

 Thank you. Some other questions:
   
  When will this be available in the US?
   
  What are the advantages/improvements over the E11 which I already own and like very much?
   
  Will you have an Iphone 5 adapter coming out?


----------



## yellowssm

craigster75 said:


> Thank you. Some other questions:
> 
> When will this be available in the US?
> 
> ...




Big 2nd!


----------



## harryyeo

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


>


 
   
  Looks cool. Way cool.


----------



## phantompersona

beautiful 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


>


----------



## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





craigster75 said:


> Thank you. Some other questions:
> 
> When will this be available in the US?
> 
> ...


 
   
  1, E12 will launch market in the end of this year.
   
  2, Bigger power output and better performance, listening while charging.
   
  3, Seems the new lightning dock need a secret chip so it can be work with any accessory which connect to the lightning connector, it means maybe there are not high quality line out signal anymore.
   
     but it will be a good chance to Big company to develop some portable DAC/Amp


----------



## putente

*feiao*, what are the physical dimensions of this new amp, with and without the volume knob?


----------



## MrScratch

Is it possible to connect the L12 directly to the E7/E17 through the dock connector (much like E9) or the L7 is still needed to get the line out?


----------



## bowei006

It is too beautiful for my eyes. I must look away for a
Second


----------



## Evshrug

bowei006 said:


> It is too beautiful for my eyes. I must look away for a
> Second




LOL!



craigster75 said:


> Thank you. Some other questions:
> 
> When will this be available in the US?
> 
> ...




Craigster, the new power system should directly address your issue with the E11's battery charging method; you'll be ale to use and charge the device at the same time (with one battery). Personally, I would still like the option to user-service the battery, but thinner/smaller devices usually preclude that feature. Now that my iPod is like, oh, 8 years old or so, I wish it was easier to get inside and replace the battery which doesn't last much longer than 2 and a half hours anymore. Of course, the E12 will also be quite a bit more powerful over the E11, hopefully it'll include a low/high gain switch to further address the more challenging headphones at both ends of the impedance/sensitivity load range. Also, the possible crossfeed circuit (optional is good) would allow some bleeding between the left and right channels to gain more realism – not useful on every audio feed, but some music is really enhanced with an "out of your head" feeling and a potential increase of soundstage depth.

The only thing about the iPhone 5 that really excites me is that it makes all the older ones cheaper


----------



## Angels and Air

Just curious, when the E12 comes out, will there be a price drop for the E11?
   
  $10 or $20 off the E11 would be nice.


----------



## ruuku

You could always look in the classifieds after the E12 is released... I'm sure there will be tons of E11 owners trading up.


----------



## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





mrscratch said:


> Is it possible to connect the L12 directly to the E7/E17 through the dock connector (much like E9) or the L7 is still needed to get the line out?


 
   
  Sorry, still need to connect to the L7 first.


----------



## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





angels and air said:


> Just curious, when the E12 comes out, will there be a price drop for the E11?
> 
> $10 or $20 off the E11 would be nice.


 
   
  Sorry not.


----------



## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





putente said:


> *feiao*, what are the physical dimensions of this new amp, with and without the volume knob?


 
   
   
  With knob,  L*W*H=124.7*65.5*14.4 
  Without knob, L*W*H=119*65.5*14.4


----------



## putente

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> With knob,  L*W*H=124.7*65.5*14.4
> Without knob, L*W*H=119*65.5*14.4


 
   
   
  Thank you! Can you tell me which opamp is being used inside, and if it's socketed or soldered?


----------



## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





putente said:


> Thank you! Can you tell me which opamp is being used inside, and if it's socketed or soldered?


 
   
  The op amp is to be decided , but maybe LME49710+LME49600 for the commercial version.


----------



## gimbertt

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> The op amp is to be decided , but maybe LME49710+LME49600 for the commercial version.


 

 Oh please go with this!


----------



## Vibemerchant

jamesfiio said:


>




I'd allmost buy it because of the way it looks; that's one slick looking amp.
How does the sound compare against the rest of the Fiio lineup?


----------



## Craigster75

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> On the other side, Bass boost and Crossfeed ( maybe )


 

 Please, oh please tell me the E12 will have a low battery warning.  This drives me crazy about my E11- I am in the middle of working out and it just dies.  I believe you will sell units based on something as simple as a low battery warning.
   
  I really like the apparent durability and simplicity of design.  For me, I don't care about crossfeed and am fine with one-stage bass boost- the simpler the better.  I do think a treble boost would be nice to compensate for darker cans- maybe convert the crossfeed switch to a treble switch?  I think if anyone needs something more specific, an EQ is in order.


----------



## Achmedisdead

Quote: 





craigster75 said:


> Please, oh please tell me the E12 will have a low battery warning.  This drives me crazy about my E11- I am in the middle of working out and it just dies.  I believe you will sell many more units based on something as simple as a low battery warning.


 
  That's why I bought my E11 from the Micca store, with an additional battery and charger for no extra cost!


----------



## F900EX

Sound wise, what will be the differences between this and the E11. And if this is the flag ship of the portable FiiO amps a treble switch would be nice.


----------



## rdsu

Can we still use E12 while charging? This is a no on E11...
   
  [EDIT]
  I already saw the answer... 
  Sorry


----------



## jammerlee711

may  know which price bracket the Mount Blac will be sat on? 100usd range


----------



## Chawanwit

When will it be released? Please make it quick!

Please have a treble boost to beside the bass boost.


----------



## bowei006

$200-$300
  All I can guess is possibly $250. There were 3 options FiiO gave. The cheapest one gave the best sound quality but you can not charge while using, the second option was a bit below the first but you can charge, third option gave you some really good battery and charging apparatus, the lowest tier of the three in sound but also the most expensive. They put a poll up on FB AND on Head Fi (awesome right?) and the second option for the mix was chosen. The second was slightly more expensive but also had what most of us liked. So as its the middle I will only guess $250? Nothing is set in stone. 
   
  The E12 is a flagship portable amplifier and NOT a replacement for the E11. An replacement would mean an amp that was also portable wth similar function and featres in the same price bracket.
   
  E9 to E90K is an "upgrade" or replacement.
  E7 to E17 IS NOT an "in line upgrade" or replacement as E7 is $77 and E17 is $130-$150
  E7 to E70K(not released yet) would be a direct replacement.


----------



## Craigster75

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> $200-$300
> All I can guess is possibly $250. There were 3 options FiiO gave. The cheapest one gave the best sound quality but you can not charge while using, the second option was a bit below the first but you can charge, third option gave you some really good battery and charging apparatus, the lowest tier of the three in sound but also the most expensive. They put a poll up on FB AND on Head Fi (awesome right?) and the second option for the mix was chosen. The second was slightly more expensive but also had what most of us liked. So as its the middle I will only guess $250? Nothing is set in stone.
> 
> The E12 is a flagship portable amplifier and NOT a replacement for the E11. An replacement would mean an amp that was also portable wth similar function and featres in the same price bracket.
> ...


 

 At that pricepoint, I would like to see treble boost added and see how it compares to the Headstage Arrow as this would not be in the budget category like my E11.


----------



## JamesFiiO

jammerlee711 said:


> may  know which price bracket the Mount Blac will be sat on? 100usd range




MSRP will be about $100 to $120 in U.S market.


----------



## JamesFiiO

craigster75 said:


> At that pricepoint, I would like to see treble boost added and see how it compares to the Headstage Arrow as this would not be in the budget category like my E11.




sorry not treble boost feature. maybe mount blac II will support treble boost.


----------



## Craigster75

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> sorry not treble boost feature. maybe mount blac II will support treble boost.


 

 Since the price point is half what I thought, I am fine with no treble boost


----------



## Craigster75

Will you offer an Iphone 5 adapter, or will the current Iphone 4 adapter be compatible with the Iphone 5 converter?


----------



## JamesFiiO

craigster75 said:


> Will you offer an Iphone 5 adapter, or will the current Iphone 4 adapter be compatible with the Iphone 5 converter?




not, the lightning dock is fully digital out and ask a secret chip inside any 
accessary for iPhone 5.

but you can still connect to the lightning convertor‘s 30pin out


----------



## Chawanwit

jamesfiio said:


> sorry not treble boost feature. maybe mount blac II will support treble boost.




Then I guess I will have to go with the e17 then. How is sound quality wise, does the e12 compares to the e17? Much better or not, because I weighting the option between these or the e17 with treble boost


----------



## jammerlee711

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> MSRP will be about $100 to $120 in U.S market.


 
  wow,tht's what i'd expect..if fiio selling amp for a million dollar like other manufacturer i won't love the brand so much.
  i have a little suggestion to feiao: Please update the latest progress on the first post, it make everything more efficient
   
  BTW, what's the opamp that e12 will be using? and
   
  ps(some personal thought):
  i'd love to see the next big thing from fiio will have a more transparent/flat sound. E11 did the vocal and the bass nicely but the high sparkle is the thing that i felt lacking.
  It would be nice if we can  tune the sound using the interconnects instead of the amp. Afterall, amplifier shudn't alter the highs and low,don't they?


----------



## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





jammerlee711 said:


> wow,tht's what i'd expect..if fiio selling amp for a million dollar like other manufacturer i won't love the brand so much.
> i have a little suggestion to feiao: Please update the latest progress on the first post, it make everything more efficient
> 
> BTW, what's the opamp that e12 will be using? and
> ...


 
   
  thanks, will update more news on the first page when we back to work from holidays.
   
  the op amps is to be decided because there are too many options and we need more time to test which will be the best.


----------



## jammerlee711

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> thanks, will update more news on the first page when we back to work from holidays.
> 
> the op amps is to be decided because there are too many options and we need more time to test which will be the best.


 
  oh yah, forgot tat it's long holiday in China...relax as much as you can and put some worry faces on your competitors when you're back...Happy holiday !!


----------



## bowei006

Wow. You guys pulled some magic! Glad to hear it is much cheaper.


----------



## Evshrug

OOOH, yes the new price range falls right into budget...
Still looking to power my AKG Q701 headphones, the portable factor of this over an E9 means I could use this E12 amp with all my headphones in whatever situation


----------



## JamesFiiO

we still plan to release a limited edition for those who wants the best sound quality . but the first version will belong to mass production. 
   
  Anyway, we will do our best to provide high performance , high quality products in affordable price, we will not forget it because that is why 
   
  you guys love FiiO.


----------



## Chawanwit

jamesfiio said:


> we still plan to release a limited edition for those who wants the best sound quality . but the first version will belong to mass production.
> 
> Anyway, we will do our best to provide high performance , high quality products in affordable price, we will forget it because that is why
> 
> you guys love FiiO.




How special will the limited edition be?


----------



## putente

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> MSRP will be about $100 to $120 in U.S market.


 
   
   
  Can you tell me other FiiO products currently on the market with the same price? I'm trying to figure out how much it will cost in Europe...


----------



## MrScratch

jamesfiio said:


> we still plan to release a limited edition for those who wants the best sound quality . but the first version will belong to mass production.




I am interested. 
I hope EU auth resellers like Audioazimuth/Playstereo will sell this special version.


----------



## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





putente said:


> Can you tell me other FiiO products currently on the market with the same price? I'm trying to figure out how much it will cost in Europe...


 
   
   
  Sorry, not, but our products in Europe will be a little higher than in U.S because the VAT is higher.


----------



## bowei006

Everything is currently in that price range
Their most expensive unit is $130 E17
E10 is $80 
E7 is $77
E6 is $30
E11 is $66
E09K is $100
E02i is $29


----------



## SIDWULF

Such a sharp design, love the minimalist clean black look.
   
  I love the looks of the E10 for this...and the blue light...just a great looking little amp.


----------



## Noupoi

Sorry for this being a bit off-topic, but is there any way for me to contact FiiO tech support? I've tried the market@fiio.com.cn email on the FiiO website about an issue I'm having with an E7/E9 combo which I originally posted here but have not recieved a reply.


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





noupoi said:


> Sorry for this being a bit off-topic, but is there any way for me to contact FiiO tech support? I've tried the market@fiio.com.cn email on the FiiO website about an issue I'm having with an E7/E9 combo which I originally posted here but have not recieved a reply.


 
  Try sending a private message to "feiao", who I believe works for Fiio.
  http://www.head-fi.org/u/148324/feiao


----------



## Evshrug

purpleangel said:


> Try sending a private message to "feiao", who I believe works for Fiio.
> http://www.head-fi.org/u/148324/feiao



Based on prior comments about designing the FiiO name and logo, I believe feiao is the founder of FiiO. Feiao seems like a nice guy, but out of respect I'd recommend exhausting every other option first (Noupoi tried the email on FiiO's support page, did he read the FAQs and try contacting the reseller who he purchased from?). I'm not saying Feiao won't help, I'm just sayin'...


----------



## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Based on prior comments about designing the FiiO name and logo, I believe feiao is the founder of FiiO. Feiao seems like a nice guy, but out of respect I'd recommend exhausting every other option first (Noupoi tried the email on FiiO's support page, did he read the FAQs and try contacting the reseller who he purchased from?). I'm not saying Feiao won't help, I'm just sayin'...


 
   
1. The story of the name " Feiao ", it is given by Head-Fi when we became sponsor, since I am using this ID for so long time, it is hard for me to change the ID to " FiiO " , or " James from FiiO " which James is my name in English.
   
2, Yes, I am one of the founder of FiiO cause we are a very strong team, and I am the man to handle marketing issues, of course, I am the CEO of FiiO,  and most of my time is talking with our customer through email, facebook, 
   
    forums and other IM like MSN, google talk, skype, QQ. in the past years, we have very few products and not so many user, in fact, I will reply each email by myself ( it still cost me 1 to 2 hours to reply the email on market@fiio.com.cn ) , 
   
    but as you know, although I maybe the busy CEO who spend time on end customer,  I still be a human being and can't handle so many work even I already work 14 hours today. lol, I should fire myself. 
   
3, Now we have a support team, 4 staff help me handle any before/after sale service and tech support, but they need time to learn enough skill, you can understand, he/she must have very good skill in English, Technical knowledge , 
   
    products knowledge and very friendly attitude  to customer. in fact, I am trying to become such great service operator. I have enough technical background ( 15 years in audio R/D, oh, my  youth ), and I have enough knowledge 
   
    ( I spend time to collect information from our user and them decide what kind of products our  R/D team should develop ), but obviously poor English ( Hi, guys, at least my English is better than your Chinese, 






 ), so please give us
   
    more time, we will become better and better and try to provide the best service in the world ( oh, Apple will not make such stupid mistake if  Cook can  talk with end customer directly , lol ).
   
BTW, we just finished a short holiday for our National Day, that maybe the reason why we have not replied the email in time.


----------



## Craigster75

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> 1. The story of the name " Feiao ", it is given by Head-Fi when we became sponsor, since I am using this ID for so long time, it is hard for me to change the ID to " FiiO " , or " James from FiiO " which James is my name in English.
> 
> 2, Yes, I am one of the founder of FiiO cause we are a very strong team, and I am the man to handle marketing issues, of course, I am the CEO of FiiO,  and most of my time is talking with our customer through email, facebook,
> 
> ...


 

 It is wonderful (and flattering) to have the CEO of a respected company interacting here.  IMO, it says many good things about you and your company such as being a smart businessperson who listens to and respects their customer's needs as with Val Kolton of V-Moda who participates here.  I believe FiiO is the best value in portable amps and love the sound of my E11.  Your product greatly improves the listening experience with my headphones at a price I can afford, so I just want to say thank you.


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> 1. The story of the name " Feiao ", it is given by Head-Fi when we became sponsor, since I am using this ID for so long time, it is hard for me to change the ID to " FiiO " , or " James from FiiO " which James is my name in English.
> 
> 2, Yes, I am one of the founder of FiiO cause we are a very strong team, and I am the man to handle marketing issues, of course, I am the CEO of FiiO,  and most of my time is talking with our customer through email, facebook,
> 
> ...


 
  I never thought you were the CEO. Hmm, Wow.
   
   
   


> ( Hi, guys, at least my English is better than your Chinese,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Hmm.. Maybe. I am fluent(Speaking) in Yunnan dialect (from my birth city of Kunming) and also regular Chinese Mandarin, but I can only read and write at a 3rd grade level.


----------



## JamesFiiO

meet some trouble to update information on the first page, anyway, the first shot of Mont blanc in the world. still need to fix the mold to make it perfect.


----------



## KT66

love the look


----------



## bowei006

That is much bigger than I thought! Wow.


----------



## Techno Kid

I love my E11 but if this is more of and audiophile grade setup that's balanced and doesn't color the sound (though the E11 doesn't color the sound much imo) I'm all in.


----------



## Craigster75

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> That is much bigger than I thought! Wow.


 

 If it sounds as good as it looks, I'll deal with the bulk


----------



## feigeibomber

Curious whether this could drive the LCD-2's


----------



## audionewbi

Congrats, the design look great.


----------



## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





feigeibomber said:


> Curious whether this could drive the LCD-2's


 
   
  Not sure before someone test it, but Mont Blanc has tons of power output so it may work.


----------



## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> That is much bigger than I thought! Wow.


 
   
  We have to put a bigger battery inside Mont Blanc, and the size is not so big when pair with iP4/5, not to talk about more phones have bigger size now. BTW, the thickness of Mont Blanc is 14.4mm so it is quit slim.


----------



## jammerlee711

James ! you are a man of your word,though the updates r not shown on the first page yet but you tried,that meant a lot.
   
  Please!!! do NOT change the design further...sleek,thin,simple~the design is the most elegant/ sleek that i've ever seen.
   
  As for the sound, i have faith in your team and your 15 years*O.O* experience. Wish to hear from you.
   
  BTW, i've found a review about how flexible/playable can the sound be when tuned using interconnects cables. It's in chinese, please don't bash me as the amp is from another brand
   
http://www.mobile01.com/topicdetail.php?f=180&t=2967898&r=5&last=38838275


----------



## Sherlockaled

Wow the design is so sleek and thin, wish it comes to the market a wee bit earlier  . Can't wait to get my hands on this baby, the price of Fiio is always reasonable and best-bang for bucks!


----------



## jammerlee711

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> We have to put a bigger battery inside Mont Blanc, and the size is not so big when pair with iP4/5, not to talk about more phones have bigger size now. BTW, the thickness of Mont Blanc is 14.4mm so it is quit slim.


 
  operation light and charging light ? where will they be?


----------



## JamesFiiO

beside the volume knob, btw, we will try to change the design so there are two LED , maybe includes a low power indicator.


----------



## harryyeo

The only word I can utter right now is... SWEEEEEEEEET.


----------



## jammerlee711

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> beside the volume knob, btw, we will try to change the design so there are two LED , maybe includes a low power indicator.


 
  Can we make the Mount Blac's knob glow like this?
   
   
   

  It bring few benefits to the amp.
  1. It glows in the dark, making usage in the night a breeze.
  2. The blue glow will make this amp more attractive on top of the already SLEEK Mount Blac
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  3. We can merge all the operational lights into one by changing the colour of it.which save spaces
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



      my suggestion, Blue=on, Green=charging, Yellow= Low Battery
  4. The lights is Iconic. it can be an icon for all the FIIO products. Glowing volume knob = FIIO !!


----------



## jacknight

^
   
  i think no need for that, those led can drain the battery


----------



## bowei006

Its a nice thought but .... Hmm.

I dont exactly need it glowing. Glow in the dark paint maybe? Probably not


----------



## jammerlee711

Quote: 





jacknight said:


> ^
> 
> i think no need for that, those led can drain the battery


 
  i think everything comes with a price. since the e11 already have an operational led.. to light a ring, i think adding another LED is enough.
  i'm not farmiliar with electric could any of our fellow head-fiers answer the question of how much battery time will be reduced if we add another LED on the amp?


----------



## Craigster75

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> beside the volume knob, btw, we will try to change the design so there are two LED , maybe includes a low power indicator.


 

 Low power indicator is so important to me, it may be the deciding factor if I purchase E12 or not.  My biggest issue with the E11 (which I completely enjoy) is grooving to music and it dies without warning.  Maybe the power LED changes color when power is low?


----------



## jammerlee711

Quote: 





craigster75 said:


> Low power indicator is so important to me, it may be the deciding factor if I purchase E12 or not.  My biggest issue with the E11 (which I completely enjoy) is grooving to music and it dies without warning.  Maybe the power LED changes color when power is low?


 
  Me too. I hate my E11 dies out when i'm in the middle of some song. It's is so frastrating. 
  I stated on my glowing volume knob suggestion , No. 3 =)


----------



## Evshrug

Haven't paid enough attention to test scientifically, but I think even my lowly E5 outlasts my iPod 5th Gen's battery. So if my iPod needs charging, I charge the FiiO too, never been an issue the way I use it.

The only time I run out of Amp battery is if I've been amping my gaming setup with it after a few sessions using the FiiO with my iPod first. And it's not like an Amp is an emergency device anyway.

All that said, however, a low battery indicator can only be good


----------



## SIDWULF

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> meet some trouble to update information on the first page, anyway, the first shot of Mont blanc in the world. still need to fix the mold to make it perfect.


 

 WOW, look at that! I love the silver around the jack opening, looks like machined aluminum.


----------



## Sherlockaled

Quote: 





sidwulf said:


> WOW, look at that! I love the silver around the jack opening, looks like machined aluminum.


 
   
  Also look at the edges on the sides, very "iphone 5-like" in a very good way :
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  PS: btw where is the LED indicator for low battery?


----------



## linglingjr

I'm kind of jelly because i still have to use mah E9/E7 (which i think looks miles better than the E17) But I agree this is just beautiful.  Oh wow I just saw it runs off of AAA batteries lololol -10000 coolness points.  I know they make rechargable batteries but really how much more would it cost to just put a non replaceable LiPo in there? I would think it would make it quite a bit thinner too.


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> meet some trouble to update information on the first page, anyway, the first shot of Mont blanc in the world. still need to fix the mold to make it perfect.


 
  I had no idea that Fiio is into rubber bondage, at least Fiio is a top and not a bottom.


----------



## Evshrug

purpleangel said:


> I had no idea that Fiio is into rubber bondage, at least Fiio is a top and not a bottom.




Ah-h-h-ha... Do I declare that awkward, or do I ask "what's wrong with being a bottom?"

Oh, and LingLingJr,
The AAA's are not only easier to replace when "out in the wild" and away from charging outlets, but AAA batteries offer better, more consistent charge as the battery runs low. Don't worry, it's already been debated.

Masterfully.


----------



## Dah-Dee

E12 looks beautiful... will it accept USB audio from a Galaxy S3?


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





dah-dee said:


> E12 looks beautiful... will it accept USB audio from a Galaxy S3?


 
  They have the E18 for that(not yet released). E12 is just a portable headphone amplifier. It will not use USB OTG digital LPCM data from any smartphones. Only analog.


----------



## Evshrug

bowei006 said:


> They have the E18 for that(not yet released). E12 is just a portable headphone amplifier. It will not use USB OTG digital LPCM data from any smartphones. Only analog.




^^^ Like he said. The E12 will just be a (powerful,) amp, not a DAC for portable devices. Would be _highly_ interesting to compare to an O2, though the O2 is a bit larger.


----------



## Dah-Dee

Any info/ETA on the E18?


----------



## bowei006

Ill compare it to my custom O 2 for you  it wont be fair as it doesnt use standard bom and a opa2228 burr brown but whatever.


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Ah-h-h-ha... Do I declare that awkward, or do I ask "what's wrong with being a bottom?"


 
  The Fiio E12 should be named Frank, the one on the bottom should be named Rocky.


----------



## Evshrug

purpleangel said:


> The Fiio E12 should be named Frank, the one on the bottom should be named Rocky.



Oh, but isn't it nice!

>_>
<_<

Just plz don't mention Prof Everett.

And bowei,
Thanks for the offer! From ClieOS's review, it sounded like the E11 was of the same transparent sound signature as the O2, just a bit less powerful and refined, and now that an E12 is on the way with more power and refinement, plus a more portable form factor...


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Oh, but isn't it nice!
> >_>
> <_<
> Just plz don't mention Prof Everett.


 
  I've seen the movie about 300 times, mostly dressed as Rocky.


----------



## Swimsonny

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> ^^^ Like he said. The E12 will just be a (powerful,) amp, not a DAC for portable devices. Would be _highly_ interesting to compare to an O2, though the O2 is a bit larger.


 
  i will make this comparison to a Epiphany O2.


----------



## JamesFiiO

About the OP BUF of Mont Blanc,
   
  We will choose one as the OP BUF for Mont Blanc, but not sure if you guys have special "feeling" about it.
   
  BUF634, low power consume , warm sound quality. the specification will not as high as LM49600, the THD is about 0.03%
   
  LM49600, special designed for audio, and need almost double power current compare with BUF634, very high specification, the THD is about 0.002%.
   
   
  Any suggestion? 
   
  BTW, the playtime will be about 15 hours if we use LM49600, and 20 hours if we use BUF634. the charge time is about 7 hours by USB port of PC, or 3 hours by 1.2A USB wall charger. the build battery is a 800mAh/11.1V.


----------



## SV_huMMer

15 hours off battery to me is widely enough not to sacrifice the sound quality. But this is just my humble opinion.


----------



## putente

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> About the OP BUF of Mont Blanc,
> 
> We will choose one as the OP BUF for Mont Blanc, but not sure if you guys have special "feeling" about it.
> 
> ...


 
   
   
  If the E12 features a socketed opamp, this is a minor decision as later it will possible to use other opamps...


----------



## ClieOS

putente said:


> If the E12 features a socketed opamp, this is a minor decision as later it will possible to use other opamps...




Unfortunately, unlike BUF634 which does come in DIP8 package (or SOIC8 on a DIP8 adapter) and can be socketed , LME49600 only comes in non-socketable TO-263 surface mount. So it must be decided early on (*btw. this is just the buffer, not the main opamp).

My vote goes for the LME49600 - 15 hours is still long enough and the spec is superior.


----------



## putente

Quote: 





clieos said:


> Unfortunately, unlike BUF634 which does come in DIP8 package (or SOIC8 on a DIP8 adapter) and can be socketed , LME49600 only comes in non-socketable TO-263 surface mount. So it must be decided early on (*btw. this is just the buffer, not the main opamp).
> My vote goes for the LME49600 - 15 hours is still long enough and the spec is superior.


 
   
   
  Thanks for clearing that! In this case, I also vote for the LME49600...


----------



## JamesFiiO

in term of sound quality, I am worry about people may decide by the OP AMP, BUF634 is a very good and famous op buf in the past years, even it is not designed for Audio first. personally , I will choose the LME49600 too.
   
  also I had mentioned before, Mont Blanc will have two version, one is for DIY version which you can change the OP AMP by yourself but we will not provide any warranty and the quantity is limited. hope everyone can understand
   
  us because our user may damage the products when they change the OP AMP.


----------



## MrScratch

I vote for Obam... Err... I mean, LM49600. 

15 h w/ low power LED would be perfect. Better performance > longer battery life.


----------



## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





mrscratch said:


> I vote for Obam... Err... I mean, LM49600.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Mont Blanc came with two LED, one for power on/off and the alarm if there are any DC or over current . one for charge, includes charging, full power, low power status.


----------



## Sherlockaled

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> Mont Blanc came with two LED, one for power on/off and the alarm if there are any DC or over current . one for charge, includes charging, full power, low power status.


 
  Awesome, this is a very helpful feature  !
   
  I vote for LM49600 , to me sound is number one priority, however battery and size are also very important. 15hours/charge for the LM49600 imo is a very range for all-day portable already  .


----------



## MrScratch

jamesfiio said:


> Mont Blanc came with two LED, one for power on/off and the alarm if there are any DC or over current . one for charge, includes charging, full power, low power status.




Yup, I remember you mentioning that. 
So the E12 "LE" will be a special DIY portable amp? Interesting!


----------



## mikeaj

Ah, so you are looking at BUF634 and LME49600... you will not lack for output power then.  I think some people will be excited to be able to use the planar magnetic headphones with these amps.  As for which to choose, I think the circuit designer (you, as a compnay) knows better than us.
   
  I don't have a strong feeling about it, but I also suggest LME49600.  It is cheaper, and for marketing purposes, it is better.  If you can get 15 hours runtime, that is already a lot.  If you use your phone as a player (some other devices too), you would need to charge it long before 15 hours anyway.


----------



## xp9433

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> About the OP BUF of Mont Blanc,
> 
> We will choose one as the OP BUF for Mont Blanc, but not sure if you guys have special "feeling" about it.
> 
> ...


 

 Definitely prefer the higher spec LM49600, and 15 hours play time is good.
  Is it possible for users to replace the 800mAh/11.1V battery with a higher rated compatible battery - say 1800 - 2200mAh (if available)?
  Frank


----------



## chesterqw

LM49600, quality for 15 hours will be enough.


----------



## jammerlee711

FYi , the new sony's hpa-1 only last 5hrs btween charges...15hrs,it is over kill, gimme LM49600 !!


----------



## phantompersona

LM49600
   
15 hours is plenty of time and SQ matters most.


----------



## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





xp9433 said:


> Definitely prefer the higher spec LM49600, and 15 hours play time is good.
> Is it possible for users to replace the 800mAh/11.1V battery with a higher rated compatible battery - say 1800 - 2200mAh (if available)?
> Frank


 
   
  sorry, not enough space to put a bigger battery inside.


----------



## thegrobe

This looks awesome....Fiio is just great, and I love to see you interacting here while developing. I will be purchasing this and the x3 as well.

Please make sure the "bass EQ" switch is more sturdy than on the E11. It is very difficult to easily switch it to the middle position. It doesn't really click in securely.
Thanks


----------



## Dojomoto

My DAP won't last 15 hours of playback anyways, so I think 15 hours is MORE than enough time between a charge. Bring on the better quality LM49600 buffer please !


----------



## pdiddypdler

Any indication of a release period at this stage?


----------



## Sh3ngLong

Hi guys,
   
  Recent Head-Fi lurker and first time poster here.  I'm a total noob when it comes to headphones, but I'm slowly learning, thanks to you guys.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  I recently ordered my very first full-size headphones... the AKG Q701.  I'll be using them at home and at work for music and gaming.  And maybe on personal/business trips when I'm just hanging around the hotel/house.
   
  I'm now looking to get my first portable amp for my Q701 and this FiiO E12 has caught my attention.  Hopefully this will be a great combo. Can't wait for it to be released!


----------



## pspivak

I have just one request. BALANCE CONTROL.


----------



## bowei006

The LM49600 sounds nice.
   
  Quote: 





sh3nglong said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> Recent Head-Fi lurker and first time poster here.  I'm a total noob when it comes to headphones, but I'm slowly learning, thanks to you guys.
> 
> ...


 
  "Welcome to Head-Fi! Sorry about your wallet"
   
  Why use a portable amp with the Q701? Are you going to be using it between rooms at home? I wouldn't recommend using the Q701 in a public or traversing enviroment. If you are using the Q701 statically, a desktop amp would be better.


----------



## Sh3ngLong

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> "Welcome to Head-Fi! Sorry about your wallet"
> 
> Why use a portable amp with the Q701? Are you going to be using it between rooms at home? I wouldn't recommend using the Q701 in a public or traversing enviroment. If you are using the Q701 statically, a desktop amp would be better.


 
   
  Thanks for the welcome.    I won't be using the Q701 in multiple rooms at home, but I will be using it between home and work.  I definitely won't be using it in public or traversing environment, but I may use it when I'm stationed in a hotel/house when I'm on a personal/business trip.  Is a desktop amp something I can move around between home and work?  If so, I'll be sure to check them out.  TIA


----------



## bowei006

sh3nglong said:


> Thanks for the welcome.    I won't be using the Q701 in multiple rooms at home, but I will be using it between home and work.  I definitely won't be using it in public or traversing environment, but I may use it when I'm stationed in a hotel/house when I'm on a personal/business trip.  Is a desktop amp something I can move around between home and work?  If so, I'll be sure to check them out.  TIA




Some choose to just buy two sets of units but I get that not everyone has $300 to spend

Are you going to be using with an ipod or iphone? 

If so then it should be fine. I used an E17 with my Q701 for a few week and it worked well. Just enough power.

But of course i dont have other things to say as I dont have the E12


----------



## JamesFiiO

updated some information with the newest photo of the final sample


----------



## Craigster75

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> updated some information with the newest photo of the final sample


 

 Do you have a link?


----------



## Vibemerchant

craigster75 said:


> Do you have a link?



Page 1 :rolleyes:


----------



## sinquito

Hey James, what about the price and the _special Head-fi edition_ that you talked about?


----------



## Craigster75

Quote: 





vibemerchant said:


> Page 1


 

 Thanks!  Looks amazing and I want one yesterday!  How does the one-stage bass boost compare in dB to #1 and #2 boost on the E11?  Is it in-between? 
   
  Will the E12 highlight mids more?  I will be running my M-100 through it. 
   
  Also, if I purchase an Iphone 5, will the E12 be compatible with it through my L9 adapter and the digital output adapter or will FiiO offer a new digital adapter?


----------



## Vibemerchant

craigster75 said:


> Thanks!  Looks amazing and I want one yesterday!  How does the one-stage bass boost compare in dB to #1 and #2 boost on the E11?  Is it in-between?
> 
> Will the E12 highlight mids more?  I will be running my M-100 through it.
> 
> Also, if I purchase an Iphone 5, will the E12 be compatible with it through my L9 adapter and the digital output adapter or will FiiO offer a new digital adapter?




I've got similar questions, so +1


----------



## lostmage

I was looking at getting an o2, but this looks like another great possibility. Gotta have something good to run these Q701s.


----------



## Craigster75

Quote: 





lostmage said:


> I was looking at getting an o2, but this looks like another great possibility. Gotta have something good to run these Q701s.


 

 I really enjoy my E11, so I can't wait to hear what the E12 can do.


----------



## bowei006

I liked the O2 with the Q701. The E12 to the O2 is a compltely different thing. The E12 is a portable headphone amp. The O2 is an amplfiifer that can be fitted into a slightly larger than wallet sized chasis with batteries, not something you can strap to a phone easily that the majority would want to do. 
   
  Edit: Just realized I hit a magical 16k number!  Yay! Self congrats pat on the back initiating.


----------



## lostmage

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> I liked the O2 with the Q701. The E12 to the O2 is a compltely different thing. The E12 is a portable headphone amp. The O2 is an amplfiifer that can be fitted into a slightly larger than wallet sized chasis with batteries, not something you can strap to a phone easily that the majority would want to do.
> 
> Edit: Just realized I hit a magical 16k number!  Yay! Self congrats pat on the back initiating.


 

 And yet, according to the specs, the E12 might be even more powerful than the O2. I'm looking forward to some reviews and comparisons when this eventually comes out.


----------



## mikeaj

Quote: 





lostmage said:


> And yet, according to the specs, the E12 might be even more powerful than the O2. I'm looking forward to some reviews and comparisons when this eventually comes out.


 
   
  Yes, it should be more powerful than O2, especially on battery.  It has an 11V battery (and generating -11V from that, most likely), as opposed to the 9V (8.4V) batteries in the O2.  And for the output stage, it seems like it will use LME49600 (or BUF634), which should have more output capability at lower impedances than two NJM4556 in parallel like the O2 has.
   
  Now, whether or not anybody listens at these deafening volumes is a different matter.
   
  As for any other aspects, it's still a wait-and-see thing, I agree.


----------



## Craigster75

The newest E12 picture on page 1 looks fantastic.  The appearance of the E12 exudes quality that far exceeds my E11.  Great to see the low battery light!


----------



## JamesFiiO




----------



## uNcLe1

Had actually tried both iPhone 5 & iTouch 5 > Lightning to 32 pins adapter > L3 > E11 > SE535 ... but the hissing is very pronounce  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 compared with iPhone 4 & iTouch 4 > L3 > E11 > SE535


----------



## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





uncle1 said:


> Had actually tried both iPhone 5 & iTouch 5 > Lightning to 32 pins adapter > L3 > E11 > SE535 ... but the hissing is very pronounce
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  that is what we are worry about. anyway, Apple does not means everything, and now seems they just take care money but not customer. too sad to see that, Jobs, plz come back to see what happen now.


----------



## reza7392d

subscribed


----------



## Angels and Air

Dimension-wise, it's size is similar to the iPhone 4, correct?


----------



## Craigster75

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> that is what we are worry about. anyway, Apple does not means everything, and now seems they just take care money but not customer. too sad to see that, Jobs, plz come back to see what happen now.


 

 It would be worth a premium if you could manufacturer a "lightning" version of the L9 for Iphone 5 or if someone else will offer to provide a cleaner connection.  I imagine all portable amp companies will have a similar issue.


----------



## Craigster75

Quote: 





craigster75 said:


> Also, if I purchase an Iphone 5, will the E12 be compatible with it through my L9 adapter and the digital output adapter or will FiiO offer a new digital adapter?


 
  After reading through the posts, it appears this question was already answered in post #186, so the answer is yes to compatibility through the lightning adapter to 30-pin connector and L9.


----------



## Craigster75

If Feiao is looking for volunteers to test pre-production units, I humbly offer my services.


----------



## Parall3l

Can't wait until december. Going to use the E12 to destroy a pair of cheap earbuds. I've always wondered what a pair of earbuds being destroyed by excessive power looks like. Similar experiments done on speakers produced an awesome looking result.

 The experiment is going to be done in the backyard, so flying earbud drivers or whatever won't hurt anyone. Going to pop off one of the covers for the earbuds if possible. Not sure if I should video this or take before and after pictures. Now obviously the earbud will be driven far beyond tolerable listening volumes, so it'll be interesting to hear what kind distortion I'm going to get too.

 This won't damage my E12 right?

 Edit: I think I'll need to include a note saying that normal usage with the E12 won't cause earphones to blow up, just in case someone gets confused.


----------



## Craigster75

Quote: 





parall3l said:


> Can't wait until december. Going to use the E12 to destroy a pair of cheap earbuds. I've always wondered what a pair of earbuds being destroyed by excessive power looks like. Similar experiments done on speakers produced an awesome looking result.
> 
> The experiment is going to be done in the backyard, so flying earbud drivers or whatever won't hurt anyone. Going to pop off one of the covers for the earbuds if possible. Not sure if I should video this or take before and after pictures. Now obviously the earbud will be driven far beyond tolerable listening volumes, so it'll be interesting to hear what kind distortion I'm going to get too.
> 
> ...


 

 LOL- I have an overpowered Onkyo receiver and my nephew blew out the woofers on my classic Advent Maiestro tower speakers listening to hip hop near full volume.  The paper cone was turned to paper mache.


----------



## Craigster75

Quote: 





craigster75 said:


> LOL- I have an overpowered Onkyo receiver and my nephew blew out the woofers on my classic Advent Maiestro tower speakers listening to hip hop near full volume.  The paper cone was turned to paper mache.


 

 For the M-100 ZO 2.3 or E12??? (Keeping in mind I have an E11 and am looking to push more bass with some genres, but would also like more forward mids with others).


----------



## JamesFiiO

A small updated, we already decided to use LME49710+LME49600 in our Mont Blanc. some technical specification of this two op amp:
   
*About LME49710MA NOPB*
    
   
   
The LME49710 is a Single High Fidelity Audio Operational Amplifier. This Audio Amplifier offers near zero THD+N and sets a new standard for high end audio users. TI's newest Amplifier uses state of the art circuitry and process to achieve a new class of audio performance and technology. The AC and DC parameters in this amplifier series offers users a solution well suited for the most demanding signal path applications. There are three package choices to enable all users' ease of use and evaluation criteria.
The LME49710 is designed for high slew rate, low noise and high output for systems needing +/-2.5 to +/-17V functionality. The pin out is the TI standard to quickly upgrade existing boards. This series is for applications such as high quality audio amplification, multi-media, imaging, line drivers/receivers and active filters. The output current is for 600Ohm loads with more than 26mA drive with THD+N over a wide voltage range.
The LME49710MADB, LME49710NADB and LME49710HADB are evaluation boards designed to establish performance and evaluation to design the best end user system. The evaluation boards include all components for ready-to-use, a stand-alone bench work.
   

 Features 
 Single Audio Operational Amplifier
 Ultra low THD+N of 0.00003%
 34V operation and low noise
 600Ohm loads
 SNR 97dB
 High output of 26mA
 Gain Bandwidth Product >55MHz
 20uV/S Slew rate
 DC Gain Linearity Error of 0.000009%
 PSRR >120dB
 CMRR >120dB
 Vos is 0.1mV
 Three package offerings
 Applications

 High Fidelity Audio Equipment
 High Fidelity drivers/receivers
 34V Industrial applications 
 
   
   
   
    *About LME49600*   
The LME49600 is a high performance, low distortion high fidelity 250mA audio buffer. The LME49600 is designed for a wide range of applications. It can be used inside the feedback loop of op amps.
The LME49600 offers a pin-selectable bandwidth: a low current, 110MHz bandwidth mode that consumes 7.3mA and a wide 180MHz bandwidth mode that consumes 13.2mA. In both modes the LME49600 has a nominal 2000V/μs slew rate. Bandwidth is easily adjusted by either leaving the BW pin unconnected or connecting a resistor between the BW pin and the VEE pin.
The LME49600 is fully protected through internal current limit and thermal shutdown.
   
   
   
 Features 
 Pin-selectable bandwidth and quiescent current
 Pure fidelity. Pure performance
 Short circuit protection
 Thermal shutdown
 TO–263 surface-mount package 
   
   
 Device Uses 
 Headphone amplifier output drive stage
 Line drivers
 Low power audio amplifiers
 High-current operational amplifier output stage
 ATE Pin Driver Buffer
 Power supply regulator


----------



## ostewart

I want to congratulate you on choosing a great op-amp, I had a cmoy and the LME49720 was the best sounding to my ears, fast, quite neutral and very detailed, loved it.

Can't wait for you to bring this out, well be awaiting any updates


----------



## Craigster75

@feiao- Since the amp is fairly neutral, what will be the quantity of the bass boost switch in dB and how does that compare to the two settings on the E11?


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





parall3l said:


> Can't wait until december. Going to use the E12 to destroy a pair of cheap earbuds. I've always wondered what a pair of earbuds being destroyed by excessive power looks like. Similar experiments done on speakers produced an awesome looking result.
> 
> The experiment is going to be done in the backyard, so flying earbud drivers or whatever won't hurt anyone. Going to pop off one of the covers for the earbuds if possible. Not sure if I should video this or take before and after pictures. Now obviously the earbud will be driven far beyond tolerable listening volumes, so it'll be interesting to hear what kind distortion I'm going to get too.
> 
> ...


 
  That is easier done with a desktop unit. You don't need an E12 to do that. I haven't done it yet though. 
   
  Edit:
  Done:
   
  High Gain, max volume. 3.5W @ 25 ohms. No currency numbers. But man these things are distorting.


----------



## xp9433

Quote: 





parall3l said:


> Can't wait until december. Going to use the E12 to destroy a pair of cheap earbuds.
> 
> This won't damage my E12 right?


 
  When a power amp is powerful enough you can destroy speakers (usually they overheat and burn out) before clipping and destroying the amps. However, there is a double risk - the destroyed speakers can sometimes form a short circuit and consequently you will drive your amps to destruction. Not a recommended practice!


----------



## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





craigster75 said:


> @feiao- Since the amp is fairly neutral, what will be the quantity of the bass boost switch in dB and how does that compare to the two settings on the E11?


 
   
  the bass boost value is about 3dB , and we will try to move to the sub bass range.


----------



## Evshrug

jamesfiio said:


> the bass boost value is about 3dB , and we will try to move to the sub bass range.




Exciting, that should be quite unique! Thanks for the update.

Interesting that so many people are looking for Q701 amps...


----------



## yevgeny

This will sound like a pretty dumb question, but I just wanted to confirm anyway on whether I should wait for this or not...
   
  Is the E12 an Amp only or DAC as well?
   
  If it's an amp only as I suspect it is, do you guys think it will be overkill for my AKG K550s?
  At the moment I have a Fiio E11 and recently got a Go-Vibe Petite for the laptop, although I'm not a big fan of the Go-Vibe to be honest..
   
  Lastly, I also have a Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 usb audio interface for recording my mixes. If I play music on the PC and output to the Scarlett, then connect either the headphone out or Line out channels to the input of he E11 (or E12) for extra amplificaition, am I likely to lose much/any sound quaity?
   
  Sorry for partially hijacking the thread! :S


----------



## Dojomoto

Is there any specific information about the Special or Limited Edition model yet? With Christmas just around the corner, it would be nice to know what to put on my wish list!


----------



## mikeaj

Answers in bold 'cuz too lazy to split
   
  Quote: 





yevgeny said:


> This will sound like a pretty dumb question, but I just wanted to confirm anyway on whether I should wait for this or not...
> 
> Is the E12 an Amp only or DAC as well?
> *>> Amp only*
> ...


----------



## yevgeny

thanks so much for your response Mikeaj, cleared up all my questions 
   
  I can't imagine buying a new set of headphones for a while, so I guess I can keep the amps etc I have now.. I suppose I better concentrate on creating high quality music to enjoy what I already have!


----------



## Gofre

dojomoto said:


> Is there any specific information about the Special or Limited Edition model yet? With Christmas just around the corner, it would be nice to know what to put on my wish list!




There's going to be a limited edition model? Great, now I'm going to be obliged to buy one  the standard model is stunning enough!


----------



## theque

Subbed.


----------



## JamesFiiO

Yes, there are one DIY version which you can use the op am you like, but we will not provide warranty to the DIY version.


----------



## jazzman7

Feiao:
   
  I own an E17 and a E09K, along with various Lxx LODs.  Great products.
   
  I did a search on the thread and didn't find the answer to this question:  Weight?


----------



## lubczyk

Oh, man, I would love for Fiio to make the Fiio E19 already - A portable DAC/AMP that can drive anything from sensitive IEMs to power-hungry Orthos.


----------



## mikeaj

Quote: 





lubczyk said:


> Would something like this be able to fully power orthos (LCD-3, HE-6, HE-500, T50p)? Is is sort of a stretch?


 
   
  What are you really asking?  Some people are always going to say "no" to that.  People are always going to argue about sound quality.
   
  If you're talking about output electric power into those headphones, that depends on how loud you want to listen.  The HE-6 is a good deal less sensitive than the others listed.  Based on what we know about the amp power supply and ICs used, it should power the ones other than the HE-6 to deafening levels (unless the source file is just _that_ quiet).  Depending on your choice of music and preferred listening level, it may realistically not be enough for HE-6 for plenty of non-extreme users.


----------



## lubczyk

Quote: 





mikeaj said:


> What are you really asking?  Some people are always going to say "no" to that.  People are always going to argue about sound quality.
> 
> If you're talking about output electric power into those headphones, that depends on how loud you want to listen.  The HE-6 is a good deal less sensitive than the others listed.  Based on what we know about the amp power supply and ICs used, it should power the ones other than the HE-6 to deafening levels (unless the source file is just _that_ quiet).  Depending on your choice of music and preferred listening level, it may realistically not be enough for HE-6 for plenty of non-extreme users.


 
  Well, that's good to hear. Thanks for the explanation.


----------



## JamesFiiO

Depend on the test of the engineer sample, the output power @32 ohms headphones is about 1.3w to 1.4w, and @16 ohms headphones is about 900mW, so I believe it can drive almost all hard to drive headphone except some " monster " headphone like the AKG K1000。


----------



## ostewart

Sounds like it's coming along really well, let's hope I get a sample to review


----------



## bowei006

Thats a lot of power.


----------



## Dyaems

any idea if there will be a silver version of the E12 @ James?


----------



## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





dyaems said:


> any idea if there will be a silver version of the E12 @ James?


 
   
  sorry we have not plan to release silver version cause black is far more popular.


----------



## hyperr

Is it still looking realistic that the release will be in December? I might want one for Christmas  depending on how it compares to an E11


----------



## Caesar7

Is it going to be in the same category of the JDS Labs C421 ... are they comparable to each other


----------



## ostewart

If i get one to review, i will compare it to the C421 AD8620


----------



## Caesar7

Thanks .. Will be waiting


----------



## ostewart

I'm also getting a JDS Labs O2 black edition next week, it's going to be my reference amp for reviews


----------



## gavinfabl

also keen to know if December still eta?


----------



## Craigster75

I am hopeful the special edition will be bass heavy or at least have a significant bass boost option.


----------



## gavinfabl

craigster75 said:


> I am hopeful the special edition will be bass heavy or at least have a significant bass boost option.




Maybe some deep sub bass too. Earthquake bass


----------



## Craigster75

gavinfabl said:


> Maybe some deep sub bass too. Earthquake bass




A combination of an E11 with a superior amp and ZO2.3 in a special edition E12 would make the pricetag worthwhile.


----------



## Chops

As far as the E12 having enough output for ortho cans, I don't think anyone needs to worry. I've been powering my Mad Dogs with the E11 for almost a week now, and the most I have ever turned up the volume is about 5.5. Maybe up to 7 when I'm feeling frisky, and that's loud as heck! But I only do that for very short periods, and very seldom. BTW, this is also playing a lot of Dubstep through them as I have found an interest in this music genre lately, thanks to a fellow colleague at work that actually creates his own Dubstep music. 

Granted, the Mad Dogs (Fostex T50RP) are pretty efficient at 98dB and only 50 ohms. However, with that said, they are capable of handling up to 3000mW (3 watts!). The E12 is capable of putting out 1.3 watts at 32 ohms, so probably around 1 watt at 50 ohms. At any rate, my point is the E11 is quite easily capable of powering my ortho's with authority and slam while remaining crystal clear. And this is with the amp set to High Output and High Gain. I never use the Bass Boost, even with other types of music such as classical, jazz, blues, etc, etc. The "EQ" is always left off and about 9 - 10 hours on a full charge. So the E12 should be able to handle almost anything, based off of the excellent performance of the E11.

I just might upgrade (probably will - nah, most likely will... No, I will) to the E12 when it comes out just because it should have an even more refined sound to it. The extra battery life is a plus, but the real biggie will be using it while charging. 


James, it's a blessing having you on the forum, especially as a very active member. I'm sure I speak for all of us in saying that we are extremely appreciative to have you here! Thank you!


----------



## Kizatsu

Due to nearly none, but about 2-4 DACs supporting the ability to skip the built-in DACs within devices, such as the iPod Classic, would it then be pointless to get an E17 and instead get an E12?
   
  What would the SQ be like?
  Over the past few days, I've only begun looking into amps., DACs and amp. + DACs [single units], etc. Therefore, please go easy on me! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
   
  Thanks!
   
   
  ...and yes; I must agree with Bowei's point on the charging. If a change could be made to allow for that, it'd be much better.


----------



## Craigster75

kizatsu said:


> Due to nearly none, but about 2-4 DACs supporting the ability to skip the built-in DACs within devices, such as the iPod Classic, would it then be pointless to get an E17 and instead get an E12?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## gavinfabl

kizatsu said:


> Due to nearly none, but about 2-4 DACs supporting the ability to skip the built-in DACs within devices, such as the iPod Classic, would it then be pointless to get an E17 and instead get an E12?
> 
> What would the SQ be like?
> Over the past few days, I've only begun looking into amps., DACs and amp. + DACs [single units], etc. Therefore, please go easy on me!
> ...




I agree with Craigster75. 

I have an iPod Classic, and will connect it to the E12 using the line out dock. This will make a good solution. However I will not be using IEMs. 

I want as much power delivery, hence why I'm not going via the E17 route.


----------



## gavinfabl

I have today sold the last part of my home headphone setup (Littledot MKIV tube amp). As much as I'm going to miss its phenomenal sound, my new HD558s don't need all the current the amp delivers, and now that I have 2 dogs , I wanted a portable solution to use with my classic. The E12 fits the bill perfectly. 

It means I can listen to music wherever my dogs are. Perfect


----------



## Kizatsu

Quote:


gavinfabl said:


> I agree with Craigster75.
> I have an iPod Classic, and will connect it to the E12 using the line out dock. This will make a good solution. However I will not be using IEMs.
> I want as much power delivery, hence why I'm not going via the E17 route.





>





> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------





>





> So the E12 will provide more power than the E17? [...and in the SQ department, what would things be like? - Not just SQ, but also sound signature, how spacious it sounds, too]
> 
> Hmmh... I suppose that it may be better to get the E12 than the E17. If I were to use the DAC from the E17 [outside of a portable setup], it'd only be on rare occasions.
> 
> ...


----------



## Sniping

When can we start ordering this amp?


----------



## Craigster75

kizatsu said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> gavinfabl said:
> ...




My understanding is that the amp in the E17 is comparable to the E11. Since the E12 is a step up from the E11, I would expect the E12 amp to be superior to the E17 amp.


----------



## Craigster75

sniping said:


> When can we start ordering this amp?




More importantly, when will they ship? Last we heard, sometime in December.


----------



## pelli

I've been lurking on this thread for quite some time now, and I have to say I am getting excited and antsy...GO FiiO Go!!!!!  I love my E17, but the prospect of an affordable portable that may be able to drive my HD 650's and my soon to be purchased LCD-2s is enticing.  Not that I will wear either on the street, but full mobility in the house will be a game changer.


----------



## kiteki

Fiio, perhaps add the option to pay $10 extra for LME49600 + LME49990?


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





craigster75 said:


> My understanding is that the amp in the E17 is comparable to the E11. Since the E12 is a step up from the E11, I would expect the E12 amp to be superior to the E17 amp.


 
  The amp. on the E11 is slightly more powerful then the E17's amp. (but no big deal).


----------



## mikeaj

Quote: 





kiteki said:


> Fiio, perhaps add the option to pay $10 extra for LME49600 + LME49990?


 
   
  Maybe in the special edition?  I think they're still working out details of what that entails.
   
  That said, LME49710 should hardly be a limiting factor in a design like that.  And note that LME49710 quiescent current on +/- 15V (at +/- 11V, would be slightly less) is given as 4.8mA while LME49990 quiescent current is listed at 9mA.  For reference, LME49600 is at 7.3mA in low-bandwidth mode.  Battery life would be shorter with LME49990 for dubious benefits.


----------



## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





kiteki said:


> Fiio, perhaps add the option to pay $10 extra for LME49600 + LME49990?


 
   
  There will have a DIY version, but the LME49600 and LME49990 is very different with normal package, and it is a little difficult to us to make custom model. that will be very expensive as you can understand.


----------



## gavinfabl

jamesfiio said:


> There will have a DIY version, but the LME49600 and LME49990 is very different with normal package, and it is a little difficult to us to make custom model. that will be very expensive as you can understand.




Thanks for reply. 

Any update on availability ? I have my credit card or PayPal ready


----------



## Gazoozles

Newbie question, would getting a better amp (such as the e12) be better than getting a dac/amp combo such as the e7? I'd be using it with my iphone and possibly some heir audio 3.ai's.


----------



## jeffsf

Quote: 





gazoozles said:


> Newbie question, would getting a better amp (such as the e12) be better than getting a dac/amp combo such as the e7? I'd be using it with my iphone and possibly some heir audio 3.ai's.


 
  Your quality will be limited by the weakest component in the chain. You're talking about $450 IEMs and a $60 amp.
   
  Assuming your source material is good, either lossless or some believe 320 kbps sufficient, then, in my opinion, the e7 will be the weak link. It's a great little piece for its price. The e17 is, to my ears, even better for not much more right now ($110 on Amazon this week). If Fiio keeps on the path they have been on the new amp will outshine either of them at a higher, yet still very modest price.
   
  I have a feeling you'd be well served by a better amp and possibly "hacking" digital audio out from your iPhone and into an outboard DAC. That said, if the Heir 3.A can be driven off the iPhone, you're already far ahead of most. It all depends on how deep your pockets are and how much you believe you can hear a difference that makes your music sound better to you.


----------



## canadien

Hello guys, so I had few question as I am new to amplifier and headphones
  I just bought Hifiman RE 262; so, will E12 be good to bring out best performance from this ear phone?
   
  What is the final estimated price to be? and is FIIO planning to introduce anything new around $100 product line with inline microphone, as I do not wish to buy the same product if only one particular feature is missing? Is there anything other then E12 being introduced real soon to cater to smartphone users?
   
  Is there a alternative?


----------



## DivergeUnify

subscribed. go fiio


----------



## Tsujigiri

Is it still on schedule for December delivery? I've decided to wait until this released to get an amp for my new HP's, sounds like it will be quite epic if it has the same Fiio performance for the price, but at a higher price.


----------



## kiteki

canadien said:


> Hello guys, so I had few question as I am new to amplifier and headphones
> I just bought Hifiman RE 262; so, will E12 be good to bring out best performance from this ear phone?


 
   
  No one has the E12 yet so no one can comment on synergy or sound, but it should be fine with the RE262.
   
   


canadien said:


> / and is FIIO planning to introduce anything new around $100 product line with inline microphone, as I do not wish to buy the same product if only one particular feature is missing? Is there anything other then E12 being introduced real soon to cater to smartphone users?
> 
> Is there a alternative?


 
   
  You can find IEM's with an in-line microphone in the cable, like the JVC FRD-60, or you can keep the IEM's in your ears (or one ear) and talk into the microphone in your phone, like usual.
   
  Yes there are alternatives, smartphone sound quality is usually not so good... so you can buy a different player, like the Colorfly CK4 or Sony Z1060.


----------



## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





tsujigiri said:


> Is it still on schedule for December delivery? I've decided to wait until this released to get an amp for my new HP's, sounds like it will be quite epic if it has the same Fiio performance for the price, but at a higher price.


 
   
  Yes, there will have very few for the market, but I think it is hard for you to buy one.


----------



## Tsujigiri

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> Yes, there will have very few for the market, but I think it is hard for you to buy one.


 

 Somehow I suspected that it would be delayed.... I'm glad that you guys are taking the time to get all the details right rather than rush out a substandard product. Do you happen to know about when they should be widely available?
   
  Also, would you know how well this amp goes with the Sennheiser HD650? I know it's a pretty specific question, but I know some manufacturers do use this headphone to test their amps, so just wondering.


----------



## hyperr

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> Yes, there will have very few for the market, but I think it is hard for you to buy one.


 

 Please can you let us know when we are able to pre-order?


----------



## Saraguie

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> Yes, there will have very few for the market, but I think it is hard for you to buy one.


 
   
  Where will they be for sale? Can we place an order with Fiio directly?


----------



## h4mm3r 0f th0r

i hope fiio also comes up with a better desktop amp... they have very cheap affordable products but i am sure most people also look for quality and that is why schiit products are getting so famous now... quality with cheaper prices... they need not be dirt cheap if there is enough quality and power....


----------



## nirvana das

n an accident i have lost my 85% hearing  in my one ear...and other ear normal..
i am a gamer n play counter strike 1.6...
at full window sound i can listen very thin sound from my damaged ear..
i need a very very loud amplification for my damaged ear..so i can enjoy my gaming..
when i placed mobile speaker on my damaged ear than i can able to listen music from that ear...so u can determine how much amplification i need...
can fiio e6 amp could do this..?


----------



## Gallade475

Quote: 





nirvana das said:


> n an accident i have lost my 85% hearing  in my one ear...and other ear normal..
> i am a gamer n play counter strike 1.6...
> at full window sound i can listen very thin sound from my damaged ear..
> i need a very very loud amplification for my damaged ear..so i can enjoy my gaming..
> ...


 
  the best thing to do would be to set up a channel bias at comfortable volume in your good ear,equalize the volume between two ears, then, if you need a volume boost, get an amp. just don't let other people listen to your stuff at that setting for danger of hearing loss. Also, remember to get high power input headphones, so you don't risk blowing up your headphones.


----------



## nirvana das

can u suggest which amp a headphone or earbud should I use for very loud amp..

can e6 do this....?

iI prefer ear more than headphone beacuse earbud give more pressure sound...


----------



## Gallade475

Quote: 





nirvana das said:


> can u suggest which amp a headphone or earbud should I use for very loud amp..
> can e6 do this....?
> iI prefer ear more than headphone beacuse earbud give more pressure sound...


 
  I guess that the E6 would do well if you used something more sensitive like a closed headphone such as the AKG K271, AT Ath m50, or some iems, like the shure se215


----------



## Vlooienuker

Quote: 





nirvana das said:


> n an accident i have lost my 85% hearing  in my one ear...and other ear normal..
> i am a gamer n play counter strike 1.6...
> at full window sound i can listen very thin sound from my damaged ear..
> i need a very very loud amplification for my damaged ear..so i can enjoy my gaming..
> ...


 
  I've lost my hearing too albeit it may not be 85% I can tell theres a difference and if I block my left ear its like I'm not blocking it at all and if I block my right ear then I can barely hear. I play a lot of FPS games too but my primary game is CS 1.6 and I play competitively although its a dead game. I am indeed a soundwhore meaning I do use sound to find where people are but usually I cant hear people on my left side so to solve this problem I went into my soundcard drivers and changed the L/R channel volume and made "L" 100% whereas the "R" is on 80%. It made everything easier to hear and helped me so much with gameplay. An amp probably wont fix it but maybe a soundcard and good large soundstaged headphones. Hope this helps.


----------



## JaiSAn

A topic which is supposed to promote a product *but* there will be *no availability* and *impossible for anyone to purchase* ?


----------



## bowei006

jaisan said:


> A topic which is supposed to promote a product *but* there will be *no availability* and *impossible for anyone to purchase* ?


What are you saying? It has just been delayed and will only have small amounts at first. Is what FiiO said


----------



## nirvana das

Quote: 





vlooienuker said:


> I've lost my hearing too albeit it may not be 85% I can tell theres a difference and if I block my left ear its like I'm not blocking it at all and if I block my right ear then I can barely hear. I play a lot of FPS games too but my primary game is CS 1.6 and I play competitively although its a dead game. I am indeed a soundwhore meaning I do use sound to find where people are but usually I cant hear people on my left side so to solve this problem I went into my soundcard drivers and changed the L/R channel volume and made "L" 100% whereas the "R" is on 80%. It made everything easier to hear and helped me so much with gameplay. An amp probably wont fix it but maybe a soundcard and good large soundstaged headphones. Hope this helps.


 
  i set L at 100% n R at 50%....beacuse my loss is higher than u...so even i set 100% from my L chanel...i able to listen only some thin sound  from left ear....so i need a divece than can boost the volume very very loud...


----------



## Vlooienuker

Quote: 





nirvana das said:


> i set L at 100% n R at 50%....beacuse my loss is higher than u...so even i set 100% from my L chanel...i able to listen only some thin sound  from left ear....so i need a divece than can boost the volume very very loud...


 
  What about trying to make "R" at maybe 20 or 30 percent so it can even it out more. An amp wont help in this at all albeit you could try the Mixamp from Astro gaming.


----------



## JaiSAn

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> What are you saying? It has just been delayed and will only have small amounts at first. Is what FiiO said


 
  It maybe the fault of the translator but as I see the statement below, it doesn't say "at first", it just reads "No availability" because it is difficult to purchase.
  Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> Yes, there will have very few for the market, but I think it is hard for you to buy one.


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





jaisan said:


> It maybe the fault of the translator but as I see the statement below, it doesn't say "at first", it just reads "No availability" because it is difficult to purchase.


 
  No availbility means that no one will ever be able to buy an E12 from this point on. James was probably rushing as he wrote that. It can be implied as there will be limited stock at first.


----------



## JaiSAn

So this product will eventually be available, TYVM for the enlightenment, I will wait patiently for this device to reach retail. Please do not misunderstand, I am all for the device to be put into full production, maybe I was just disappointed when I misinterpreted the statement as "not available" and the device as a "dangling carrot".


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





jaisan said:


> So this product will eventually be available, TYVM for the enlightenment, I will wait patiently for this device to reach retail. Please do not misunderstand, I am all for the device to be put into full production, maybe I was just disappointed when I misinterpreted the statement as "not available" and the device as a "dangling carrot".


 
  Yes it will be availble soon. From the looks of it, due to refinement and other things they need to work on including that they JUST finished up and is now sending out a whole stock of E07K's that they may have too much to do in getting the E12 out in mass.


----------



## Craigster75

Quote: 





jaisan said:


> So this product will eventually be available, TYVM for the enlightenment, I will wait patiently for this device to reach retail. Please do not misunderstand, I am all for the device to be put into full production, maybe I was just disappointed when I misinterpreted the statement as "not available" and the device as a "dangling carrot".


 

 Innovative entrepreneurs are optomists by nature.  As a result, they truly believe their products will be available with no hiccups or manufacturing difficulties.  Unfortunately, reality and Murphy's Law takes over.  I believe the good intentions are there and the best products are worth the wait.  My M100s were delayed for a few months.  After protesting and complaining, I finally received them and couldn't be happier.  I hope to have a similar experience with the E12.


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





craigster75 said:


> Innovative entrepreneurs are optomists by nature.  As a result, they truly believe their products will be available with no hiccups or manufacturing difficulties.  Unfortunately, reality and Murphy's Law takes over.  I believe the good intentions are there and the best products are worth the wait.  My M100s were delayed for a few months.  After protesting and complaining, I finally received them and couldn't be happier.  I hope to have a similar experience with the E12.


 
  James didn't really say delay, he just said limited availbility at first is what I implied he meant


----------



## Tsujigiri

That was in response to me asking if it was still on track for December delivery, though, so I believe he's just saying that it will be difficult to get one by the end of December. There's no reason why it would be that difficult to buy once all the kinks are worked out and production ramps up.


----------



## JamesFiiO

the first batch of Mont Blanc will be about 200 pcs, we may let our fans ( in head-fi and facebook ) pre order it . and the ETA is the end of this month.
   
  and very sorry, there are some component need too long time to order. so we have to order some from the retailer although it is very expensive.


----------



## JaiSAn

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> James didn't really say delay, he just said limited availbility at first is what I implied he meant


 
  I didn't mean to rock the boat, I don't mind waiting becuse I'm now assuming it would be past Xmas, so it would be a late gift. It doesn't matter as long as there's availability in the end and whatever time necessary to produce this device to comparable with high-end standards is fine. Better to receive an exemplary product than regrets.
   
  @ feiao.
             Do you have an approximate cost for purchase ?


----------



## lakkarius

subscribe
  Waiting for first amplifiers =)


----------



## GSARider

Sounds good chaps, will await more news of the E12.


----------



## JaiSAn

jamesfiio said:


> ....... still need to fix the mold to make it perfect.



Went and read the whole thread again, just in case I missed out on some details and one little thought keeps niggling at the grey matter within my cranium.
I noticed some members inquired on compatibility with iPhone 5, as I also have a 64GB version of this device due to frequent photos and music usage...........I have a question.

If it was necessary to quickly snap a photo, how can this be done without dismantling the setup as the size of the device will blocks the phone camera ?

No doubt this E12 is very appealing visually without even mentioning the specifications but is it functional due to its length ?


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





jaisan said:


> Went and read the whole thread again, just in case I missed out on some details and one little thought keeps niggling at the grey matter within my cranium.
> I noticed some members inquired on compatibility with iPhone 5, as I also have a 64GB version of this device due to frequent photos and music usage...........I have a question.
> If it was necessary to quickly snap a photo, how can this be done without dismantling the setup as the size of the device will blocks the phone camera ?
> No doubt this E12 is very appealing visually without even mentioning the specifications but is it functional due to its length ?


 
  Instead of placing the amp so that it is on the iPhone's back side. You can place the amp on the iPhone's front side! 
   
  Yeah, this is half joke half serious. You don't necissarily need to use the screen to hear music. Although it would be hard to do something unless you already have playlist.
   
  Otherwise it would be very hard.I guess you can somewhat quickly slide the amp out of the Camera's way? Or slightly lower the E12?
   
  Some people have been able to use lightning dock with iPhone 5
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/635800/impression-apple-nano-7g-lightning-to-30pin-adapter/15#post_8910098
   
  instead of L3, you can use L11 so that you can keep E12 just slightly lower. This would of course give you a really weird feeling unit. 
   
  So basically have the E12 like normal and when you want to take a photo, because you have a long cable L11 or L3, you can just quickly slide it down.


----------



## sinquito

Quote: 





jaisan said:


> Went and read the whole thread again, just in case I missed out on some details and one little thought keeps niggling at the grey matter within my cranium.
> I noticed some members inquired on compatibility with iPhone 5, as I also have a 64GB version of this device due to frequent photos and music usage...........I have a question.
> If it was necessary to quickly snap a photo, how can this be done without dismantling the setup as the size of the device will blocks the phone camera ?
> No doubt this E12 is very appealing visually without even mentioning the specifications but is it functional due to its length ?


 
   
  Buy a camara or a dedicated mp3 player, you can't win them all


----------



## JaiSAn

bowei006 said:


> Instead of placing the amp so that it is on the iPhone's back side. You can place the amp on the iPhone's front side!



This would not enable to use of the camera application so it doesn't solve the issue of taking a photo.



bowei006 said:


> So basically have the E12 like normal and when you want to take a photo, because you have a long cable L11 or L3, you can just quickly slide it down.



If you own a £700-£1 device would you slide anything along the casing ? I certainly have no intention of ever sliding any amp along the sides of an iPhone 5, so it still doesn't solve this issue.
So basically the design is slightly too long to be fully functional, 10cm should be maximum length for usability, not just for iPhones but for any mobile phone.

NB: I am not trying to knock this product, merely inputting constructive criticism so it can be manufactured "to make it perfect".



sinquito said:


> Buy a camara or a dedicated mp3 player, you can't win them all



I already have DSLR so there's no need to "Buy a camera". If you read carefully at my initial thought of *If it was necessary to quickly snap a photo* you may comprehend the situation dictates instant action ? My apology to contradict your reply but you _can_ win them all in this case if the device was manufactured shorter, if the E11, c421 etc etc etc can be of a suitable size then it is possible for the E12 to be of similar size.


----------



## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





jaisan said:


> Went and read the whole thread again, just in case I missed out on some details and one little thought keeps niggling at the grey matter within my cranium.
> I noticed some members inquired on compatibility with iPhone 5, as I also have a 64GB version of this device due to frequent photos and music usage...........I have a question.
> If it was necessary to quickly snap a photo, how can this be done without dismantling the setup as the size of the device will blocks the phone camera ?
> No doubt this E12 is very appealing visually without even mentioning the specifications but is it functional due to its length ?


 
   
  Unfortunately, it is very hard to balance the function and the sound quality. sometimes we have to pay for the sound quality. 
   
  In fact, there are a hifi smartphone just released in China, called BBK X1 which with build in CS4398, a very good DAC chip, but the battery and the amp section limited the sound quality, so the sound quality is not as good as expected.
   
  Anyway, E12 is a monster amp with plenty of power output, so it is not suitable for so many people because few people will use big cans on the go. but it do provide a possibility to people who want to do that , or make it more convenience at home because it
   
  is easy to moved around.
   
  Anyway, it is not the issues about FiiO because we have many options to our customer, from very tiny one (E6 ) to bigger one like E12, or even a amp which you can use to control the song on the amp ( E02i),


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> Unfortunately, it is very hard to balance the function and the sound quality. sometimes we have to pay for the sound quality.
> 
> In fact, there are a hifi smartphone just released in China, called BBK X1 which with build in CS4398, a very good DAC chip, but the battery and the amp section limited the sound quality, so the sound quality is not as good as expected.
> 
> ...


 
  While the E6 is small and E02i is a mini-FiiO 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 they just won't sound as good as an E12(guessing)


----------



## PanamaHat

Anyone know the specs on this baby? Output impedence, mW, load it can power? I'm thinking this would a be a great replacement for my e17


----------



## gavinfabl

bowei006 said:


> I'm not sure you realize that we are audio enthusiasts and that the majority of amps are exactly that size. C421, ALO Audio amps and etc etc.
> 
> This is like telling us that the LCD3 will fail because it is too big and is open. Well, it was made for the people that want to use it.




I'm happy with the E12 but looks are important. Gone are the days when it was ok to have ugly boxes.


----------



## Craigster75

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> I'm not sure you realize that we are audio enthusiasts and that the majority of amps are exactly that size. C421, ALO Audio amps and etc etc.
> 
> This is like telling us that the LCD3 will fail because it is too big and is open. Well, it was made for the people that want to use it.


 

 +1 There is a fine balance between size, performance and cost.  FiiO is one of the best at finding the sweet spot for value a la the E11.  With a larger form factor and a bigger price tag, I can't wait to hear the E12.


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





jaisan said:


> I am certain you are all audio enthusiasts, trying to manufacture a product but lack the professional R&D approach, to put it bluntly you are amateurs when it comes to production R&D. Being enthusiastic does not necessarily mean you are professionally capable. Professionals would NOT request/require consumer feed-back for development, have you ever seen Samsung or Apple enter Forums to ask for opinions ? It is a case of "too many cooks spoils the broth" you have lost sight of the original concept of portability and ended up designing an Amp for indoor usage with full sized headphones.


 
  Great of you to note that we here in this thread aren't professional manufacturer's. 
   
  We never said that. We enthusiasts buy the stuff that a company makes. 
   
  Samsung and Apple and every company ever has used customer feedback in some way shape or form. People complained about the shuffle feature on iPods half a decade ago and other problems. Guess what they changed? People noted that Samsung TV of specific model had a burn in issue, guess what they changed?
   
  In an effort to remain courteous, I will refrain from commenting on the rest of your comment.
   
  Have a great day.


----------



## mikeaj

For better or for worse, I think you'll see that more niche consumer product developers tend to have a closer relationship with users when designing products, than say Apple or Samsung when designing phones. Apple in particular has a history of not particularly caring about current feelings of the people. It takes a certain kind of company to switch from PowerPC to x86 and screw everyone over when it comes to software compatibility. However, when the majority of advertising comes from word of mouth (forum), and most buyers are doing some kind of research, you want other consumers to be happy and feel involved. For example, I don't think this is a particularly strong market or one that really knows what it's doing, but gaming peripherals manufacturers tend to heavily use consumer feedback, use enthusiasts for product testing, etc.

If you look at the original plan for the E12 prior to feedback, it was to use 6x AAA batteries. I think having a single battery with the current charging scheme is an improvement in usability over that... The original plan was to have higher output levels and performance than the E11, and that's generally not happening without a larger size.

Anyway, if you're using IEMs on the go with an amp strapped to a phone, you don't want an E12 anyway. There are other amps out there for that. That said, obviously a shorter length would be better, but at the expense of what? There's also something of a trend towards larger smartphones.





panamahat said:


> Anyone know the specs on this baby? Output impedence, mW, load it can power? I'm thinking this would a be a great replacement for my e17 :rolleyes:




It uses LME49710 + LME49600 design running off +/- 11V rails. Output impedance should be low, unless they decide to add some for whatever reason. However, that seems unlikely considering the stated output power levels below and the rails used.

See a previous post:


jamesfiio said:


> Depend on the test of the engineer sample, the output power @32 ohms headphones is about 1.3w to 1.4w, and @16 ohms headphones is about 900mW, so I believe it can drive almost all hard to drive headphone except some " monster " headphone like the AKG K1000。




1.3W @ 32 ohms is about 6.5V rms (18.5 peak-to-peak, not far from 22V to work with). Around 6.5V or a little more can drive 600 ohms Beyerdynamics and so on very loud, same for planar magnetics like HE-500 / LCD-2/3, etc. To be honest, E9 caps out at just above 7V and is quoted at 1W for 16 ohms. This thing can apparently do E9 levels of power, yet it can run off battery.


----------



## kalbee

Let me break up your post so I can quote accordingly.



jaisan said:


> I am certain you are all audio enthusiasts, trying to manufacture a product but lack the professional R&D approach, to put it bluntly you are amateurs when it comes to production R&D. Being enthusiastic does not necessarily mean you are professionally capable. Professionals would NOT request/require consumer feed-back for development, at lease not forum personal opinions, have you ever seen Samsung or Apple enter Forums to ask for opinions ? It is a case of "too many cooks spoils the broth" you have lost sight of the original concept of portability and ended up designing an Amp for indoor usage with full sized headphones.




Nothing wrong with allowing users to voice opinions. After all, we are talking about a product for personal use. All FiiO has to do is to prune the suggestions and evaluate if it is a sound addition, and if it is feasible in all its ways.
And besides, even a *professional* would _take into consideration_ the requests of their clients. The poor soul that commissions an architect to design him a house, with specifically the use of skylights, and the architect takes the cash and gives him a pleasing design but zero consideration for skylights because he didn't like the idea. Not because it isn't feasible. Seriously? This sounds like your definition of "professional".

Are you aware of what the two companies you quoted are? Samsung and Apple. One is the company (albeit split into independent groups) that practically controls a whole country's economy, and the other is world famous in design dystopia: "This is how we vision it. This is how it will be. That is all. You take it or leave it, we have enough sheeples to support us."

On a spare note, V-MODA has also taken suggestions for some of their latest products, and needless to say fans are well grateful and ever more supportive to the company. And while it may not be a direct seek of audience, companies like Sennheiser also answered prayers and introduced a model that bridges the gap between the HD650 and HD800. Did they do it because they thought it would be original? Or perhaps because there has been people hoping for something of that description throughout the years? 



jaisan said:


> This is because you design a product for a category but fail to keep the criteria bound to that category which is PORTABILITY as stated in the title of this OP. You are also wrong when you say the JDS Labs C421 and the ALO portable Amps are of the same size, they are NOT, *C421 and ALO Rx MK3, ALO Rx MkII, etc etc are 10cm +/- in length* but the *E12 is 124cm* long and it is this extra 2cm which makes it not fully congruous with mobile-phone usage because it will block the back camera. Your suggestion of attaching the E12 to the screen of the iPhone (how to access the UI ?) or sliding the Amp up/down (risking scratches on a £699 device ?) definitely show signs of thoughtless input , same as your R&D.



Woah. 1.24m amp. That is serious business. Let me fix that for you: 12.4cm or 124mm.

There are many phones larger than an iPhone and don't forget that portable amps are not limited to be used with phones. For the bite-mark-fruit worshipers, something the size of a Galaxy Note for example may be blasphemy, but for the rest of the world there is some sense into it. Specially in business. Not all back facing camera of modern phones will be blocked by "12.4cm". Mind you, I did not read the whole thread but is this 12.4cm including the knob? If yes, let me remind you that there is a way to position the knob so that it doesn't block the iPhone's camera.

Let us put that besides the point: what dictates that a portable amp must have clearance for the back facing camera? I'd say look at audiophile portable stacks. Some portable amps aren't even pocketable. I would have to imagine something non-pocketable to not have clearance for the back facing camera on phones. 12.4cm still seems in the portable range given a non-ridiculous thickness. Would you prefer FiiO to reclassify their amp as "transportable" instead of "portable"? I'm not sure too many companies actually use that classification despite the lack of actual mobility. You can go grief the other R&D teams too. I won't tell you if you'll be taken as a proper suggestion, or to be kindly told to leave the room.

Let me also remind you that by counting the added length from a iPhone (!!!!) compatible LOD adds a bit more length below the camera. FiiO's own L11 would give you almost the extra 2.4cm you are so adamant about.



jaisan said:


> If the OP title states **Upcoming FiiO " Flagship " amp Mont Blanc/E12**, I would say you have been very successful and if true to the specifications then you have a very good product.
> Something which is NOT portable for a portable Amp then you have failed because you design the device to the users wishes rather than adherent to the original criteria of portability.
> I also understand the reason for defending a product when it is far too late to pull from production to meet ETA. The more vehement the defence, the more truth in the ridicule.
> You can self congratulate, self praise however much, the device is still too long to be congruous with mobile phones (I repeat yet again).



If you have suggestions and recommendations, leave them as such.
You can self congratulate, self praise however much, but your opinion is still very biased and takes little to no consideration of other electronic devices that can be used with it. I do agree that using a portable amp that blocks the camera can be a little inconvenient at times but I am reminded that the amp is not fused to the back of my phone. If I have to use the camera I unplug the amp. Simple as that. Why would I want extra weight in my hands when trying to point and shoot anyway. There are give and takes to each implementation (e.g. larger battery capacity --> more weight or more expensive), and would like to remind you that a portable amp is not defined by +/- 10cm length, or a profile like that of a Go-Dap or VAMP.

P.S. last time I checked, a portable computer (laptop/netbook) covers my phone's back facing camera when I try to strap it on. :mad: I want my money back.


----------



## KamijoIsMyHero

Quote: 





jaisan said:


> I am certain you are all audio enthusiasts, trying to manufacture a product but lack the professional R&D approach, to put it bluntly you are amateurs when it comes to production R&D. Being enthusiastic does not necessarily mean you are professionally capable. Professionals would NOT request/require consumer feed-back for development, at lease not forum personal opinions, have you ever seen Samsung or Apple enter Forums to ask for opinions ? It is a case of "too many cooks spoils the broth" you have lost sight of the original concept of portability and ended up designing an Amp for indoor usage with full sized headphones.
> This is because you design a product for a category but fail to keep the criteria bound to that category which is PORTABILITY as stated in the title of this OP. You are also wrong when you say the JDS Labs C421 and the ALO portable Amps are of the same size, they are NOT, *C421 and ALO Rx MK3, ALO Rx MkII, etc etc are 10cm +/- in length* but the *E12 is 124cm* long and it is this extra 2cm which makes it not fully congruous with *mobile-phone usage because it will block the back camera.* Your suggestion of attaching the E12 to the screen of the iPhone (how to access the UI ?) or sliding the Amp up/down (risking scratches on a £699 device ?) definitely show signs of thoughtless input , same as your R&D.
> If the OP title states **Upcoming FiiO " Flagship " amp Mont Blanc/E12**, I would say you have been very successful and if true to the specifications then you have a very good product.
> Something which is NOT portable for a portable Amp then you have failed because you design the device to the users wishes rather than adherent to the original criteria of portability.
> ...


 
   
  can't you just unattach the amp, take your pic and reattach when you need it amping again. The length is not a design flaw, its the user's end for not using common sense.


----------



## sinquito

Yeah, let him be, if he wants to have a portable rig that can take pics and drive some 600 ohm headphones he can dream about it, or wait 'till apple or samsung releases their own amps. Because it's obvious that fiio doesn't know a bit about portable amps but he does.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  P.S. if you _can_ win them all, why settle with the less capable amp (fiio e11)?


----------



## Tsujigiri

Quote: 





jaisan said:


> I am certain you are all audio enthusiasts, trying to manufacture a product but lack the professional R&D approach, to put it bluntly you are amateurs when it comes to production R&D. Being enthusiastic does not necessarily mean you are professionally capable. Professionals would NOT request/require consumer feed-back for development, at lease not forum personal opinions, have you ever seen Samsung or Apple enter Forums to ask for opinions ?


 
   
  Let me get this straight: you offered your opinion that they should change the design of their product (likely sacrificing quality in the process) to work around your little camera phone, and when no one was receptive to this idea, you criticize them for changing their design too much to conform to forumites' dumb ideas? Sounds like a perfect example of a Catch-22 to me....


----------



## JamesFiiO

Very sorry, please just stop discussing the issues, not good at all, I can understand that everyone just hope to help us make a perfect products,  and we appreciate anyone who give us suggestion,
   
  but please understand that sometimes " imperfect " means " perfect ", and I guess the perfect means the end of the world. because not necessary to work hard to make the world better and better.
   
  Also any argument is not necessary because finally somebody will be hurt.
   
  Anyway, the E12 needs very high battery capacity so we can't change the battery now, and yes, there are E11 for someone who need shorter size. when you see the inside of E12, you will find the
   
  inner space already full of component and parts.
   
  At the end, we will try but we can't satisfy everyone because it is impossible. if you try to do that, you will lost everyone. consider why Apple don't support TF card, replaceable battery in iPhone?
   
  and why people can't manage the file inside just like Android?


----------



## JamesFiiO

another joke about iPhone, maybe E12 is designed for iP6? Cooker may make it like this. so the 12cm will not be a problem anymore, and I guess they will probably do that because Jobs said the perfect phone must keep the width as iPhone 1.
   
  and Cooker will just follow what Jobs said. (PS. it is just a joke )


----------



## SurfWax

^lol! fiio just said shut up, accept the E12, and ur gonna like it!

Awesome post


----------



## ostewart

Nice one Fiio, not all of us use iPhone's as a source like someone above, so this is not made for the iPhone, but for all mp3's and other music players, stop worrying about the camera... thats why i have my ipod rig and a phone for camera and usability. Lets get back on topic and wait for this amazing amp to come out, cant wait to see how it stacks up against my JDS C421 
   
  If i get a E12 i will compare the 2


----------



## Evshrug

Edit:
It's too bad one person's ill-tempered post sent ripples through the thread. For edification, it's clear that the person made some assumptions and errors, including assuming that bowei works at FiiO? I don't either, btw.

In any case, for other people who have similar questions,
two devices rubber-banded together and put in a pocket, they are bound to slide against eachother at least a little. The casing on both ought to be tough enough to slide occasionally. Another consideration is that the picture'd phone is an iPhone 4S I believe, the iPhone 5 is taller already, and for "quick snaps" many phones have a front-facing camera anyway. Personally, I have an iPod for music and a regular phone, so this isn't even an issue for me and users like me.
The other question was, why a portable amp this powerful? Well, that's kind of a personal choice, but there definitely is a consumer demand for it. For example in my case, I like the idea of an amp suited for my AKG Q701 that is no hassle to reconnect between my computer, my Xbox and home theater, my iPod when I want to listen in bed, or with my iPod when I take some headphones with me to work or on a plane. Space is also an issue in my bedroom, finding a place to set a desktop amp down and plug into the wall could be annoying - It's easier to set up an E12 next to me to fiddle with volume while i'm laying down or sitting at my desk. One amp, do all, not likely to need another.
Another consideration is that power isn't merely resultant in volume gain (and voltage?), even lower impedance and higher sensitivity headphones benefit from increased current. 
Am I going to listen to my AKGs while walking down the street? No. Is it a benefit to take a powerful amp anywhere? Yes. Is it for me and you? YMMV.


----------



## Evshrug

PS I have the lightsaber and Jared apps in the iPhone 10 picture!
PPS, I already use my iPod and Phone as flashlights, maybe the iPhone 10 would be the perfect replacement for those massive flashlights used by security guards? LOL! Joking of course.


----------



## bowei006

evshrug said:


> Edit:
> It's too bad one person's ill-tempered post sent ripples through the thread. For edification, it's clear that the person made some assumptions and errors, including assuming that bowei works at FiiO? I don't either, btw.
> .



I dont. For example,
Clieos doesnt work for all the company he reviews for and joker doesnt as well. I got review units and thus i know a loy about that unit. I am also a very active head fier. The majority of questions are on Fiio products and thus I know a lot about their stuff. 

And thus due to the popularity of FiiO. I prioritize putting up videos and impression threads on it becuase i know people want to see


----------



## ostewart

Same here, I don't work for any of the companies, I may work with them for reviews, but not for them.
Reviewers unite


----------



## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> Great of you to note that we here in this thread aren't professional manufacturer's.
> 
> We never said that. We enthusiasts buy the stuff that a company makes.
> 
> ...


 
   
  If every CEO can spent 10 mins to listen what the user complain about each day, we will be more happy . I am a customer too. but never got any response from any big company if I have problem, but I can said that we almost replied any feedback as we can. at least each email sent to us.
   
  and you guys all known that I spend lots of time on head-fi and other forum, facebook and I replied lots of email by my self. just because it is our culture and next year we will do better because there are someone will response to collect all the feedback in internet and our R/D
   
  manager and QC manager will also try to response to the end user . All we need is a little understanding because we can do anything we want because the world is not perfect, but I am very proud that at least we have very good interaction with our users or potential users.


----------



## bowei006

jamesfiio said:


> If every CEO can spent 10 mins to listen what the user complain about each day, we will be more happy . I am a customer too. but never got any response from any big company if I have problem, but I can said that we almost replied any feedback as we can. at least each email sent to us.
> 
> and you guys all known that I spend lots of time on head-fi and other forum, facebook and I replied lots of email by my self. just because it is our culture and next year we will do better because there are someone will response to collect all the feedback in internet and our R/D
> 
> manager and QC manager will also try to response to the end user . All we need is a little understanding because we can do anything we want because the world is not perfect, but I am very proud that at least we have very good interaction with our users or potential users.


Thanks for the reply. Ceos on general do listen just not directly. They generally from wht I see take feedback from their departements.
If you have any problem with Sennheiser, i can talk to them lol. I live 5min from their U.S headquarters

Are there any plans for good fiio speakers and iems?


----------



## Craigster75

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> If every CEO can spent 10 mins to listen what the user complain about each day, we will be more happy . I am a customer too. but never got any response from any big company if I have problem, but I can said that we almost replied any feedback as we can. at least each email sent to us.
> 
> and you guys all known that I spend lots of time on head-fi and other forum, facebook and I replied lots of email by my self. just because it is our culture and next year we will do better because there are someone will response to collect all the feedback in internet and our R/D
> 
> manager and QC manager will also try to response to the end user . All we need is a little understanding because we can do anything we want because the world is not perfect, but I am very proud that at least we have very good interaction with our users or potential users.


 

 I agree.  When a CEO like you is open and encourages feedback it says many good things about your company and philosophy.  It encourages me even more to want to try your products because I believe you are creating something special.


----------



## bowei006

It took me a year to realize that James was actually the CEO.....


----------



## stozzer123

Quote: 





jaisan said:


> I am certain you are all audio enthusiasts, trying to manufacture a product but lack the professional R&D approach, to put it bluntly you are amateurs when it comes to production R&D. Being enthusiastic does not necessarily mean you are professionally capable. Professionals would NOT request/require consumer feed-back for development, at lease not forum personal opinions, have you ever seen Samsung or Apple enter Forums to ask for opinions ? It is a case of "too many cooks spoils the broth" you have lost sight of the original concept of portability and ended up designing an Amp for indoor usage with full sized headphones.
> This is because you design a product for a category but fail to keep the criteria bound to that category which is PORTABILITY as stated in the title of this OP. You are also wrong when you say the JDS Labs C421 and the ALO portable Amps are of the same size, they are NOT, *C421 and ALO Rx MK3, ALO Rx MkII, etc etc are 10cm +/- in length* but the *E12 is 124cm* long and it is this extra 2cm which makes it not fully congruous with mobile-phone usage because it will block the back camera. Your suggestion of attaching the E12 to the screen of the iPhone (how to access the UI ?) or sliding the Amp up/down (risking scratches on a £699 device ?) definitely show signs of thoughtless input , same as your R&D.
> If the OP title states **Upcoming FiiO " Flagship " amp Mont Blanc/E12**, I would say you have been very successful and if true to the specifications then you have a very good product.
> Something which is NOT portable for a portable Amp then you have failed because you design the device to the users wishes rather than adherent to the original criteria of portability.
> ...


 
  Mate i have just came on this thread and you have spammed it up good and proper with the possibly the silliest and most pointless posts I have seen in some time.
  
  Your mad you cant use the camera with your phone and amp? are you serious? Welcome to a hobby of comprimise.  I fail to see how this amp does not fall into the portable category.  You know how few people will actually use this with there phone, and those that do will work around the issue while you just moan on.  You then go after bowies suggestion of taping it to the front, maybe you left your sense of humour somewhere else.
   
  In short your argument and case are all over the place, you simply make no valid point that would be even worth going through your posts and ripping them apart.  Your new here welcome to the community you already made a good impression.


----------



## stozzer123

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> If every CEO can spent 10 mins to listen what the user complain about each day, we will be more happy . I am a customer too. but never got any response from any big company if I have problem, but I can said that we almost replied any feedback as we can. at least each email sent to us.
> 
> and you guys all known that I spend lots of time on head-fi and other forum, facebook and I replied lots of email by my self. just because it is our culture and next year we will do better because there are someone will response to collect all the feedback in internet and our R/D
> 
> manager and QC manager will also try to response to the end user . All we need is a little understanding because we can do anything we want because the world is not perfect, but I am very proud that at least we have very good interaction with our users or potential users.


 
  James your company entered the arena and was a breath of fresh air.   Keep going forward the way you have been going and I look forward to fiios future development.


----------



## BGRoberts

Yes, thanks James.
  FiiO is "changing the landscape" in this area of audio.
  Looking forward to the new amp.
  ~BG
   
   
  Quote: 





stozzer123 said:


> James your company entered the arena and was a breath of fresh air.   Keep going forward the way you have been going and I look forward to fiios future development.


----------



## Gazoozles

This is what makes Fiio great--replying to every inquiry, whether it is a compliment or a criticism. Keep doing what you do, and revolutionize what the process of development is. Can't wait to get my hands on a e12!


----------



## JamesFiiO

our new official website just launch , you can find lots of detail specification of our products, I can say that we may the only brand who release so many detail about the products, any advice please send to twitter@fiio.com.cn so we can keep improving the website in the future.
   
  BTW, all the specification is done by AP and there may have some different with other RMAA result because the test condition is different. so just for reference and we will try to do best. hope it can help you. and thank for the hard work of our colleagues. they just done a great
   
  jobs. and we will try to become a brand/company who not only provide the best products but also the best service, and I am very proud that we have more than 9,000 fans on facebook page www.facebook.com/FiiOAUDIO.  lol, if anything we can do and not beyond our ability,
   
  we will not hesitate to do to satisfy our customers.


----------



## kalbee

@new website
Well, don't really feel like opening my email right now but:

The bottom thing I circled... what's that? I can't read simplified Chinese (except "#")
The dropdown menu doesn't seem to work well on mobile browser, it just sends me to the PORTABLE AMP section pretty soon after appearing. Not very important, and nowhere did you guys claim it was mobile browser optimized anyway 
Looks nice.

Random note: E06 Fujiyama. "Fujiyama" is the incorrect reading. Fujisan (reading 山 as "san", like the way they originally learned from the Chinese) is the correct one.
Of course, I'm not implying any need for change  Cause I guess somehow in English it is correct.


----------



## JamesFiiO

Yes, it does not work very well on mobile browser, just give us time to solve this. it is not perfect but time is limited so we hope the new website can help our customer.


----------



## Achmedisdead

Quote: 





stozzer123 said:


> James your company entered the arena and was a breath of fresh air.   Keep going forward the way you have been going and I look forward to fiios future development.


 
  Agreed 100%


----------



## miow

When will it be available exactly?


----------



## miow

bump


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





miow said:


> bump


 
  You didn't need to bump this. This is a well traversed thread. ETA is december to January, limited availbility at first.


----------



## The.Yield

I really want to get my hands on this - love my E7!


----------



## Evshrug

bowei006 said:


> I dont. For example,
> Clieos doesnt work for all the company he reviews for and joker doesnt as well. I got review units and thus i know a loy about that unit. I am also a very active head fier. The majority of questions are on Fiio products and thus I know a lot about their stuff.
> And thus due to the popularity of FiiO. I prioritize putting up videos and impression threads on it becuase i know people want to see




I am so jealous that you get review units! I don't have much money to spare, so I end up obsessing over the equipment I do have. Well anyway, keep up the good work everyone! I've gotta go take care of some gifts, a pleasant pastime as well


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> I am so jealous that you get review units! I don't have much money to spare, so I end up obsessing over the equipment I do have. Well anyway, keep up the good work everyone! I've gotta go take care of some gifts, a pleasant pastime as well


 
  If there is a will there is a way. You basically build yourself up and then bam. I'm still building myself up.


----------



## ostewart

I've only just begun to get a name for myself, it takes time but is great fun.


----------



## Prakhar

Subbed


----------



## H20Fidelity

I'm pretty keen for this E12 now. I have just the application for it atm. Just waiting on a few first impressions and review, then I'll jump in.


----------



## doginabag

Looking forward to this too.  Been toying with the idea for an amp/dac for a while now.  Was looking at an E17, but for what I need this should be perfect.


----------



## Dyaems

silver/white please =) even for me only! j/k
   
  edit: whats the size in mm of the E12? i didnt see it in the first page...


----------



## sirrender

Quote: 





dyaems said:


> silver/white please =) even for me only! j/k
> 
> edit: whats the size in mm of the E12? i didnt see it in the first page...


 
   
  its on the 1st page. point 13
   
13, Dimension: 124 X 65.5 X 14.5 with knobs, 119 X 65.5 X 14.5 without knobs


----------



## Digital-Pride

Don't mind me, just subscribing.


----------



## Dyaems

Quote: 





sirrender said:


> its on the 1st page. point 13
> 
> 13, Dimension: 124 X 65.5 X 14.5 with knobs, 119 X 65.5 X 14.5 without knobs


 

 thanks. i definitely did not see that for some reason =\
   
  also, is it possible to know the output current of the E12? the one in amperes, not watts because it is already stated.


----------



## Travelbug

Awesome specs and design. Can't wait to pair this up with my sgs 3. 
Subscribed


----------



## kalbee

Quote: 





dyaems said:


> silver/white please =) even for me only! j/k
> 
> edit: whats the size in mm of the E12? i didnt see it in the first page...


 
  Silver? Sharpies!
  I wonder if there are white sharpies... Cheaper and easier to handle than paint but wonder if they hold.


----------



## Dyaems

James said he wont release a silver one like their older products like E5 xD


----------



## bowei006

I prefer Black, the E02i in silver definately isn't a go.


----------



## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> I prefer Black, the E02i in silver definately isn't a go.


 
   
  BLACK Rocky(E02i) now available in the market


----------



## JamesFiiO

the notice of the Pre-order of MONT BLANC will be released soon, 10 pcs for head-fi'er and 10 pcs for our fans on www.facebook.com/FiiOAUDIO.


----------



## thegrobe

What is the process to get in on the limited pre-order?
Thanks





jamesfiio said:


> the notice of the Pre-order of MONT BLANC will be released soon, 10 pcs for head-fi'er and 10 pcs for our fans on www.facebook.com/FiiOAUDIO.


----------



## JamesFiiO

we will post the notice on our sub forum in head-fi and our facebook page


----------



## caracara08

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> the notice of the Pre-order of MONT BLANC will be released soon, 10 pcs for head-fi'er and 10 pcs for our fans on www.facebook.com/FiiOAUDIO.


 
  thats worth a "like" on fb!


----------



## gavinfabl

jamesfiio said:


> we will post the notice on our sub forum in head-fi and our facebook page




I'm not on Facebook. It's this page the sub forum? I would love one of those 10


----------



## JamesFiiO

not , it is http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f180/


----------



## RichieE46

Sorry Feiao if this was mentioned earlier...
   
   
  What is the price of the E12? Any advice on E11 vs E12 to power Sennheiser HD 598?
   
  I am new to this hobby...
  I literally just purchased the E11 on Amazon tonight and almost began regretting it after finding this thread. Depending on price, I might just switch to the E12 
   
  Thanks!


----------



## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





richiee46 said:


> Sorry Feiao if this was mentioned earlier...
> 
> 
> What is the price of the E12? Any advice on E11 vs E12 to power Sennheiser HD 598?
> ...


 
   
  The MSRP of E12 will be about $119 in U.S market. and E12 has about 850mW power output ( sorry we just updated the specification from our R/D team because they change design).  and E11 already enough to drive HD598 which is not a really hard to drive cans.
   
  and E12 will be available in March, there are only very few units for the market in next month.


----------



## RichieE46

Sweet! Thanks for the help! 
   
  I'll stick with the E11 for now then =)


----------



## JamesFiiO

The limited Pre order will launch on tomorrow. plz take care out notice on facebook and in our sub forum.


----------



## JamesFiiO

the pre order already launch . sorry!
   
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/642163/extra-value-provision-with-the-reservation-activity-for-mont-blanc-e12
   
  www.facebook.com/fiioaudio


----------



## WadeWilson

Need one, already posted on facebook and waiting if i'm in


----------



## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





wadewilson said:


> Need one, already posted on facebook and waiting if i'm in


 
   
  what are you ID on facebook?


----------



## WadeWilson

I have the answer i'm the 6th 
  Thanks you Head-Fi for being the community which help me to discover FIIO and their products


----------



## imackler

As of a couple minutes ago, there was still one left to preorder because someone backed out. http://www.head-fi.org/t/642163/extra-value-provision-with-the-reservation-activity-for-mont-blanc-e12/30#post_8978147
   
   
  EDIT: And its gone!


----------



## Evshrug

Quote: 





imackler said:


> As of a couple minutes ago, there was still one left to preorder because someone backed out. http://www.head-fi.org/t/642163/extra-value-provision-with-the-reservation-activity-for-mont-blanc-e12/30#post_8978147
> 
> 
> EDIT: And its gone!


 
  I jumped in (I see between the time I loaded the page & hit reply you hit "edit"), hope you mean I got it!
   
  I want to write a big review of it 
  (sortof a crazy impulse after making some money)


----------



## imackler

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> I jumped in (I see between the time I loaded the page & hit reply you hit "edit"), hope you mean I got it!
> 
> I want to write a big review of it
> (sortof a crazy impulse after making some money)


 
   
  Yup! I saw your reply on the thread. Looks to me like you got it!


----------



## Evshrug

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> If there is a will there is a way. You basically build yourself up and then bam. I'm still building myself up.


 
  Well, here goes nothing 
  In any case, I _believe_ I'll at least be mostly set for amping from here out 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  imackler,
  I'm totally stoked, just [might've] gotten lucky to get in as someone withdrew. Wonder if others will get lucky in the same way? Refresh refresh refresh...


----------



## caracara08

That's the last time I sleep. I missed it.


----------



## imackler

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> imackler,
> I'm totally stoked, just [might've] gotten lucky to get in as someone withdrew. Wonder if others will get lucky in the same way? Refresh refresh refresh...


 
  Yeah, I posted it because I saw someone had backed out. Glad you got in there!


----------



## thegrobe

caracara08 said:


> That's the last time I sleep. I missed it.




I know..same here! Well the upside is that we get to hear impressions and reviews before buying one. Now the X3- that is what I really want to get into my hands. James? I want to be on a pre-order for that.


----------



## caracara08

Quote: 





thegrobe said:


> I know..same here! Well the upside is that we get to hear impressions and reviews before buying one. Now the X3- that is what I really want to get into my hands. James? I want to be on a pre-order for that.


 
   
  agreed but im greedy. I want both!!


----------



## Evshrug

Quote: 





caracara08 said:


> agreed but im greedy. I want both!!


 
  Well guys, go ahead and sign up on the wait-list... you never know what'll happen. Only 3 people (apparently) have paid their deposits so far, due by Christmas. Even if nobody else backs out, FiiO may notify you right when the full-production goes full-swing and help make early stock available to you. Doesn't hurt to try, basically 
   
  I feel that, now that I have access to my full computer library again, a new profile pic is in order... I've actually been to Mont Blanc, but I don't have any impressive pictures of it from a distance, just a funny one of me in a bucket hat ^_^


----------



## hyperr

Damn release date is March now  Oh well better that they take longer to produce a good product than rush to release it.


----------



## Evshrug

hyperr said:


> Damn release date is March now  Oh well better that they take longer to produce a good product than rush to release it.



Where did you see March? I didn't hear that.


----------



## Craigster75

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Where did you see March? I didn't hear that.


 

 Per James.  If I didn't just pick up Vamp for $180, I would have been all over the E12.


----------



## MrScratch

I was late and I hate myself. T_T
No E12 for me lol *foreveralone


----------



## Olavxxx

Can you make it in rubberized enclosure? I think metal might scratch the phones.


----------



## Craigster75

Quote: 





olavxxx said:


> Can you make it in rubberized enclosure? I think metal might scratch the phones.


 

 I think you might be late to the party.


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





olavxxx said:


> Can you make it in rubberized enclosure? I think metal might scratch the phones.


 
   
  That's what the plastic standoff legs and new thicker bands(to keep from sliding as much) are for.


----------



## sinquito

Not another iphone lover right? Anyway thinking maybe about a silicon case?


----------



## feigeibomber

Quote: 





olavxxx said:


> Can you make it in rubberized enclosure? I think metal might scratch the phones.


 
  You could always put rubber feet on the amp..


----------



## Travelbug

olavxxx said:


> Can you make it in rubberized enclosure? I think metal might scratch the phones.



None issue really


----------



## kalbee

Or put a case on the phone.
  Protects your phone from the amp, your keys, loose coins, and best of all: yourself.


----------



## Parall3l

So what happens to the two guys that'll be receiving the E12 for free? I'm fine with waiting until March, somebody will probably want to have it as their first amp, and my E17 is fine for now.




Spoiler: Warning%3A%20Spoiler!



I guess those $1 earbuds which I'm planning to kill with excessive power gets to live another day...


----------



## Evshrug

Parall3l, do you know what suggestions of improvement they made?


----------



## kuko61

What will the input impedance? Thanks


----------



## Evshrug

Kuko61,
Do you mean output impedance? If so, I haven't seen the specs output impedance, but I suspect it would be no higher than 10 ohms and most likely 0.5 ohms like the E11. In general, I'm not concerned because I've read opinions by people who have used many amps are still fine with 10 ohm output impedance, for example Mad Lust Envy was happy with his 32 ohm Beyerdynamic DT990 out of his E9k's 10 ohm output, even vs straight out of his E17 (with a fractional output impedance). Then, there are posts like this one: http://www.head-fi.org/t/402067/a-super-simple-6dj8-headphone-amp/435#post_8779560


nikongod said:


> The 10ohm resistor wont do anything to protect your hearing, and probably wont do much to protect the headphones either. The 10ohm resistor is just there for the amp.
> 
> The objectively correct way to drive headphones implies that there is an objectively corect headphone. Ask the objectivists to identify the objectively correct headphone some time, its amusing if you like making fun of people.
> 
> ...





Also, I noticed that FiiO still hasn't quoted the output power of the Mont Blanc. >700 mW @... What Ohm load? I assume 32 ohms, that's pretty standard, and would put the Mont Blanc E12 at over twice the output power of the E11. Still, it would be nice to know* for certain.*


----------



## JamesFiiO

The input impedance should higher than 10K, and the output impedance is less than 0.5 ohms. the final output power is >850mW at 32ohms.


----------



## Sniping

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> >850mW at 32ohms.


 
  Powerful stuff!


----------



## JamesFiiO

updated the final photo of Mont Blanc on the first page. and some photos of the Mont Blanc being burn in


----------



## Sniping

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> updated the final photo of Mont Blanc on the first page. and some photos of the Mont Blanc being burn in


 
  Great job developing this product, it really looks and performs great, without sacrificing portability nor value.


----------



## JamesFiiO




----------



## caracara08

great picture!


----------



## MrScratch

I really love it!


----------



## guitarmaker1970

Precious!!!


----------



## Evshrug

jamesfiio said:


> The input impedance should higher than 10K, and the output impedance is less than 0.5 ohms. the final output power is >850mW at 32ohms.



Quite frankly, those are incredible specs. You guys should be applauded for creating such a powerful, portable, affordable creation! Thanks!


----------



## gimbertt

One of these is mine!
   
  I am so exited.
  Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


>


----------



## MarvelousOne87

How do you pre-order it?and are you the only person it can be pre-ordered through?


----------



## imackler

Quote: 





marvelousone87 said:


> How do you pre-order it?and are you the only person it can be pre-ordered through?


 
   
  The preorder was a special that FiiO offered, where ten headfiers and ten facebookers got to order early. 
   
  Following is some information from Feiao on that special offer thread regarding the release. I believe the first to be release to the general public will be the set going to Micca. Maybe you should contact them if they are doing a preorder?: 
   
  "We are burn-ing  the first batch of Mont Blanc , it take 3 hours to charge it to full battery and them take about 15 hours to run off the battery with music play. after 3 times , 
  
 we will assemble it to the final unit and test all the performance and functions, So far everything just go smooth and we may delivery all the pre order . and them the other
  
 200pcs will be available in U.S at the end of Jan, 2013 and sold by Micca store.
  
 The next batch will be start in Feb and the third batch will be available in March , for most customers, they may need to wait till March if they can buy one among the 1st, 2st
  
 batch. because the total quantity before the third batch is only about 1000 units."


----------



## MarvelousOne87

Would that be jack micca on here?or just call them directly?


----------



## imackler

Quote: 





marvelousone87 said:


> Would that be jack micca on here?or just call them directly?


 
  Personally, I'd just call Micca or shoot them an email. I have no idea if they are doing a pre-order, though. I just suggested it may be worth checking.


----------



## MarvelousOne87

Ok will do.ill report back later.


----------



## gavinfabl

It looks beautiful. Can't wait to get mine.


----------



## solserenade

Really nice! Thanks for the photos.


----------



## PineappleNoir

Any news on a possible LOD cable for the iPhone 5


----------



## kalbee

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


>


 
  This picture looks awesome in so many ways...


----------



## BlueLegend64

What is better E17 or E12? Also, do we have a release date for Europe?


----------



## Evshrug

BlueLegend64,
The E17 has a built in Digital-to-Analogue-Converter (DAC), so it will act like a quality stereo sound card when you plug it into your computer. The E17 also allows treble and bass adjustment on the device. It would be classified as a portable DAC + amp device.
The E12 (Mont Blanc) is a different kind of product, it is a portable amp that is between 3 and 4 times as powerful as the E17's amp. The Mont Blanc is intended to be plugged into another source like the headphone out of an iPod, computer, etc. I am going to use mine with my iPod and my gaming setup, as the last component before I plug in my headphones (AKG Q701, which benefit from more powerful amps than a headphone designed to work with an iPod).

If I needed one device to carry around with a laptop, I would buy an E17. It's a pretty good all-in-one device. But, since I have a nice soundcard in my desktop computer (my laptop is broken), and a separate DAC for other devices, I choose to get an E12 Mont Blanc so I would have a really powerful amp that I can easily take and connect to multiple devices around my house and (hopefully) at work.


----------



## MrScratch

As was said before, the E12 is a portable amp, while the E17 is a portable DAC/AMP combo, you can't compare them.

But if your wrong equation "which is better" actually means "which has more power as an amplifier" I'll give you an answer: the E12 delivers around 850mW @ 32ohms (as feiao posted in the previous page), while the E17 delivers 220mW @ 32ohms... If you do your maths correctly you can easely say that the E12 turns out to have more power. For comparision, the E11 Kilimanjaro delivers 180mW at the same load, so yes, the E12 has THAT much more power.


EDIT: evshrug is faster than me!


----------



## Evshrug

MrScratch,
I thought the E11's amp was slightly more powerful than the amp half of the E17?

Edit: WOAH, new design of the FiiO page! Their specs match what MrScratch said, I thought I'd read differently before. The new site has a few typographical and spelling errors, but overall shows a huge positive leap in providing more information.


----------



## BlueLegend64

Okay, thanks a lot for the explanation guys!
   
  Using Sennheiser HD 598 (50Ω) will i be able to tell the difference between the two using them with Galaxy S?
   
  What "more power" means? Higher volume, better sound quality or the ability to drive headphones with more Ω?
   
  I am noob...


----------



## Dyaems

woah, im seeing capacitors in the pic.. might change them when after the warranty runs out haha


----------



## Evshrug

BlueLegends64,
We are all noobs at one point.
The short answer is "yes" to all your questions above.

The longer explanation, more power does allow for more volume, but even if you "turn it down" to match the volumes at the same comfortable listening level, a more powerful amp will have more body in the bass and high treble frequencies, and many other small improvements that result from the muscle to drive headphones at their full potential. Different headphones will scale up differently. I haven't heard the Sennheiser HD598 myself, but from what I've read, either FiiO product would sound very good & provide an improvement from plugging directly into your smartphone, though the HD598 is sensitive enough that there may not be a very big sound quality difference between the E17 and E12 – somebody who owns an HD598 would be able to give you a more accurate impression. As a general rule of thumb, the less sensitive and the higher impedance a pair of headphone is, the more it benefits from more power.

That was mostly focusing on your headphones and amping, but what about the other end: your source, the Galaxy S smartphone? As far as I know, you can't use the E17's DAC to replace the DAC built into your Galaxy S, the DAC "half" of the E17 is meant to be used with a computer or sound system. You CAN use just the amp portion of the E17 with your phone, by connecting your phone's headphone out to the E17's analogue input, but then you would be using the E17 like a less powerful E12. I'm not saying anything, I'm just saying  Some people do use the E17 just as an amp when they're out and about, then make use of the DAC + amping features when they are using a computer at home or the office.

In the end, they both have their strengths (else why would FiiO make both?), and it's up to you to choose what will benefit you most 
Good luck, have fun!





dyaems said:


> woah, im seeing capacitors in the pic.. might change them when after the warranty runs out haha




Of course there are capacitors inside the amp 
By the way, FiiO announced that they're releasing a special DIY version of the E12 for people that want to tweak with the components


----------



## BlueLegend64

Thank you Evshrug! I believe i can somehow manage to use the dac on galaxy s using the OTG driver XDA developed but i don't have time to edit the driver. Yet it dosen't work ("usb audio is based on isochronous transfer usb support, which is unfortunately missing in this implementation"). Recently they said it's possible but i won't hold my breath.
   
  E12 will take about a month+ to be released from what i found out and sadly i can't wait this much. If i have to buy now, as an amp which one is better, E11 or E17? Compared to my Xonar DX what quality should i expect?


----------



## Evshrug

bluelegend64 said:


> Thank you Evshrug! I believe i can somehow manage to use the dac on galaxy s using the OTG driver XDA developed but *i don't have time to edit the driver.*




Uuuuuuh mmmmh... I don't know how the Xonar's DAC sounds compared to the FiiO. Honestly, with your *current* setup (HD598 headphones, smartphone, decent soundcard), I think the E11 fits best. Cheaper, a bit smaller, powerful enough to give your headphones a good run. I highly recommend getting it from Micca on amazon with the extra battery, in case one goes dead. If you like the improvement of extra power from the E11 (Killimanjaro!), then you'll have learned what a better amp offers and you'll have saved some money towards a future upgrade. Sounds like a logical, low-risk plan to me 

P.S. that's basically what I did, I love my E5 and still use it in some cases, but in hindsight I wish I'd started with the E11, and that's why I'm jumping to the E12 Mont Blanc now.
P.P.S. I love mountains ^_^


----------



## BlueLegend64

Thanks again!  I will search it a bit but you helped me a lot!!! Btw, i live in europe so i can't buy from amazon.com (i can but taxes are too much).


----------



## Dyaems

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> BlueLegends64,
> We are all noobs at one point.
> The short answer is "yes" to all your questions above.
> The longer explanation, more power does allow for more volume, but even if you "turn it down" to match the volumes at the same comfortable listening level, a more powerful amp will have more body in the bass and high treble frequencies, and many other small improvements that result from the muscle to drive headphones at their full potential. Different headphones will scale up differently. I haven't heard the Sennheiser HD598 myself, but from what I've read, either FiiO product would sound very good & provide an improvement from plugging directly into your smartphone, though the HD598 is sensitive enough that there may not be a very big sound quality difference between the E17 and E12 – somebody who owns an HD598 would be able to give you a more accurate impression. As a general rule of thumb, the less sensitive and the higher impedance a pair of headphone is, the more it benefits from more power.
> ...


 
   
  headstage arrow doesnt have any capacitors in it IIRC except for the two small ones  
   
  the E12 has alot, i remembered that blackgate E11 here haha...


----------



## Evshrug

Dyaems,
I thought some form of capacitor was required for amps? Big round ones do inspire confidence, anyway 



bluelegend64 said:


> Thanks again!  I will search it a bit but you helped me a lot!!! Btw, i live in europe so i can't buy from amazon.com (i can but taxes are too much).




Happy to suggest. I don't know everything, so I hope you'll still do a bit of your own research, but I wanted to get you started. FiiO has a list of authorized sellers on their web page, I suggest you look there first for European vendors. And I still highly recommend the spare battery, so that you can always have a charged backup. Rechargeable batteries don't last forever either...


----------



## MrScratch

bluelegend64 said:


> Compared to my Xonar DX what quality should i expect?



As evshrug pointed up, the Xonar DX sports a decent DAC and the internal amp is powerful enough to achieve an appropriate listening level with a lot of headphones. On the other hand, this soundcard isn't really that suitable to drive headphones due to the high output impedance (about 100ohms @ max output voltage). Even if the HD 598 is renowned to not scale up so well with higher quality amplifiers, you should notice an improvement in sound quality with some amplifiers with a much lower output impedance (this should translate primarily in a thigher, more controlled bass).




bluelegend64 said:


> Thanks again!  I will search it a bit but you helped me a lot!!! Btw, i live in europe so i can't buy from amazon.com (i can but taxes are too much).



Where are you from? There are official Fiio resellers all over the world!
... Or you could still search for Fiio products on Amazon de/co.uk/fr/it/es.


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





dyaems said:


> headstage arrow doesnt have any capacitors in it IIRC except for the two small ones
> 
> the E12 has alot, i remembered that blackgate E11 here haha...


 

 Actually there are a line of 6 capacitors in Arrow right at the side of the PCB, probably more on the tiny one.
   
  Changing out caps doesn't always make an amp sounds better though.


----------



## kskwerl

So when is this coming out?


----------



## Tsujigiri

There will be a few small production runs soon, so limited availability. Full production and widespread availability will come in March.


----------



## Dyaems

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> -snipped-
> By the way, FiiO announced that they're releasing a special DIY version of the E12 for people that want to tweak with the components


 
   
  i want =)
   
  @cleiOS
   
  i only saw two when i opened my 3g long time ago =( yep i wont make it sound better but i have a "stock" of many audio-grade capacitors here so it wouldnt hurt to try many things hehe
   
  just want to see whats the value of those capacitors


----------



## caracara08

someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed.


----------



## JaiSAn

LOL, it is actually 00:38 atm, so Good-Night.


----------



## kskwerl

Is this amp going to be able to drive hard to drive cans like orthos and HE-6? Prob not right?


----------



## Sniping

Quote: 





kskwerl said:


> Is this amp going to be able to drive hard to drive cans like orthos and HE-6? Prob not right?


 
  This amp gives a ton of power for a portable amp and for the money, but you wouldn't want to use this with the HE-6, you'll need a speaker amp or something...Some orthos are more efficient though, like my HE-400, and the E12 would do fine with it.


----------



## kskwerl

Quote: 





sniping said:


> This amp gives a ton of power for a portable amp and for the money, but you wouldn't want to use this with the HE-6, you'll need a speaker amp or something...Some orthos are more efficient though, like my HE-400, and the E12 would do fine with it.


 
  what about LCD-2's HE500s


----------



## Sniping

Quote: 





kskwerl said:


> what about LCD-2's HE500s


 
  It's not a good idea to be powering those phones with a portable amp. The LCD-2 and HE-500 are both less than ideal for portable use, so you'll want a desktop amp to power those.


----------



## kskwerl

Quote: 





sniping said:


> It's not a good idea to be powering those phones with a portable amp. The LCD-2 and HE-500 are both less than ideal for portable use, so you'll want a desktop amp to power those.


 
  Yea I was just wondering if it was actually capable of it, I like to just have one piece of gear...idk I'm weird


----------



## Sniping

Quote: 





kskwerl said:


> Yea I was just wondering if it was actually capable of it, I like to just have one piece of gear...idk I'm weird


 
  My thinking is that if you're going to drop $1000 on an LCD-2 you might as well get a pricey desktop amp to go with it. The E12 provides so much power for it's cost and size but the power hungry high-end planars will sound even better with more power, like from speaker taps.


----------



## kskwerl

Quote: 





sniping said:


> My thinking is that if you're going to drop $1000 on an LCD-2 you might as well get a pricey desktop amp to go with it. The E12 provides so much power for it's cost and size but the power hungry high-end planars will sound even better with more power, like from speaker taps.


 
  that's true, I had the Lyr but got rid of it when i moved and never got a new permanent residence so I'm on the go all the time.


----------



## Evshrug

jaisan said:


> Why does one always presume other people are *new* because of small post-counts ? Does large post-counts mean bigger diggery doos ? Maybe some people have been here ie since 2005 then departed and returned to find their User and Pass are no longer applicable?




Well, frequent posting, especially one continuing over a long period of time, is basically like getting a lot of practice. You get practice in presenting ideas in social situations in a way that is more likely to be read with favor, how to elicit respect and consideration instead of anger and instinctive rejection. If someone stays away long enough and with little enough care that they forget their log-in info, then yeah, it's expected that their writing skills and tone will be quite rusty. The general tone of this forum is exploratory, curious, and sometimes a happy explosion of euphoria. Unlike some forums I've participated in the past, such as a camera gear forum where mostly people regularly were jaded and suspicious with the reviewers and manufacturers, and squabble endlessly about this format or that manufacturer being best... It's very easy to get tired of all that.




jaisan said:


> Ms/Mr/Mrs Perfect never made/make any typos in the Past, Present or Future............?
> 
> My input criticisms were supposed to interject positive change to the design, wether FIIO decide to take heed or ignore, it's their prerogative.
> Yet some people rather attack the Poster than attack the Post along with sarcastic remarks just shows one's puerile, immature attitude in regard to Forum etiquette. One should seriously learn how to behave before one makes a fool of oneself.




If you don't like the attack on you, may I recommend positive change by resisting the urge to conflagrate your image further? Instead of calling the wide-aimed "some people" names, maybe state that instead of making people angry, you meant to bring something to the attention of FiiO and Head-Fi, *then* further elaborate on solutions or at least why your critique could be important to others. I think you're the guy who's issue was the E12 would block the iPhone's rear camera, and was more power than necessary for portables? Both your issues are basically addressed by the E11 already, I suggest you look into that.




jaisan said:


> The top Pic is very nice, brings inspiration to those with interest in this device but may I suggest that the lower photo only depicts "Cottage Industry" which I surmise to be the total opposite of the top photo, maybe it would be better to leave out the lower pic.
> If "Cottage Industry"is FIIO's main aim to promote then I congratulate you on your success.
> Please do not take offence, it was just a passing thought which may be beneficial to your product promotion.




Despite indicating that you want others to look beyond your tone and like your idea, the "If... Then..." sentence just preceding is the kind of backhanded sarcasm that you said one needs to grow out of. I do believe you have the skills to see that happening from yourself as well as others... I imagine that you mention working on behavior because you do care, and you're working on it yourself. It's not at all bad that you want people to speak respectfully, and that you want to help by making suggestions – just, keep working at it, pretend you're someone else and read your post before submitting it.

As far as "cottage industry" goes, I expect that the second picture is indeed from the factory. Not every manufacturing processes require conveyor belts or cool robots, and Feiao already set the context for that picture of the battery conditioning phase. Much manufacturing is done by hand still, I wouldn't be surprised if sitting on a shelf for hours, put there by hand, was cost effective and harmless to the product. FiiO probably wouldn't put the second picture in a magazine add, but the "how it's done" honesty is kinda cool for head-fi'ers on a pre-release production thread.


----------



## H20Fidelity

I like the second photo! It's cool and shows FiiO like to share the experience!

Just sayin!


----------



## caracara08

Nicely put evshrug


----------



## Tsujigiri

Yeah, the second photo is pretty cool. I wouldn't expect a company to invest the extra time and effort to condition the batteries, so nice to know that Fiio does.


----------



## Evshrug

caracara08 said:


> Nicely put evshrug




Thanks! I worry that sometimes I don't express myself clearly enough – that's what I'm working on.

Just so everyone else knows, I'm not trying to put him down; I'm trying to suggest that if he is sharing ideas because he wants to help improve things, a little more sugar and a little less coffee (or something else that would be a metaphor for bitterness) would go a long way for others to digest his ideas. Different perspectives are where creative ideas come from.


----------



## kskwerl

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Thanks! I worry that sometimes I don't express myself clearly enough – that's what I'm working on.
> Just so everyone else knows, I'm not trying to put him down; I'm trying to suggest that if he is sharing ideas because he wants to help improve things, a little more sugar and a little less coffee (or something else that would be a metaphor for bitterness) would go a long way for others to digest his ideas. Different perspectives are where creative ideas come from.


 
  I used to always get in trouble in school and the vice principle would always tell me "you catch more flies with honey"


----------



## gimbertt

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Thanks! I worry that sometimes I don't express myself clearly enough – that's what I'm working on.
> Just so everyone else knows, I'm not trying to put him down; I'm trying to suggest that if he is sharing ideas because he wants to help improve things, a little more sugar and a little less coffee (or something else that would be a metaphor for bitterness) would go a long way for others to digest his ideas. Different perspectives are where creative ideas come from.


 

 You are far more gracious than me. *JaiSAn *was really offensive and then said "Please don't take offense" and the whole line *JaiSAn* was taking was negative, nasty and offensive.
   
  As for being helpful, the E12 is in production. Offering help now is a bit late.


----------



## guitarmaker1970

Any possibility of CES pre sale online for head-fiers???


----------



## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





guitarmaker1970 said:


> Any possibility of CES pre sale online for head-fiers???


 
   
  Will go to CES on the day after tomorrow and carry 10 Mont Blanc at our booth. Not sure whether there are any fans be there. Last year there were some FiiO user visited our booth.


----------



## guitarmaker1970

Thanks feiao. Not sure ill be able to make it. Looking forward to the updates about CES. If you have any leftovers, in which I doubt, could someone purchase it by contacting you after the show?


----------



## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





guitarmaker1970 said:


> Thanks feiao. Not sure ill be able to make it. Looking forward to the updates about CES. If you have any leftovers, in which I doubt, could someone purchase it by contacting you after the show?


 
   
  I think none will be left. don't worry, most customer can buy one in March or April.


----------



## guitarmaker1970

jamesfiio said:


> I think none will be left. don't worry, most customer can buy one in March or April.



LOL!!! I just thought to give it a try! Looking forward to see this on March. Sorry for being sneaky!!!! ;-p


----------



## Gorillaz

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> Will go to CES on the day after tomorrow and carry 10 Mont Blanc at our booth. Not sure whether there are any fans be there. Last year there were some FiiO user visited our booth.


 
  Fiio my boss will go to the show, so I am going to ask him if he can get one for me, how can he locate your booth and what would be the price?


----------



## guitarmaker1970

gorillaz said:


> Fiio my boss will go to the show, so I am going to ask him if he can get one for me, how can he locate your booth and what would be the price?



At least I'm not the only sneaky one!!!


----------



## goodvibes

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> BlueLegends64,
> We are all noobs at one point.
> The short answer is "yes" to all your questions above.
> The longer explanation, more power does allow for more volume, but even if you "turn it down" to match the volumes at the same comfortable listening level, a more powerful amp will have more body in the bass and high treble frequencies, and many other small improvements that result from the muscle to drive headphones at their full potential.


 
  I'll have to disagree as implied as a generality. More power gets you more volume and the rest is strictly a qualitative endeavor. Rail voltage (source of more power) and sound quality are not synonymous. Generally a better amp in a particular line will be upgraded in all aspects and not just power for better overall performance, also in portables, the supplies can be a bit spongy even if dual battery so a bit of reserve may help more here but it would be due to overcoming other compromises like a lack of stiffness or recovery speed. More power doesn't give better sound so while it may be a common occurrence for portable amps, I'd hate to see this be considered an absolute. Please, lets not get into inaudible steady state distorion measurements compared to other dynamic aspects to argue this. Leave it to IMO if you like but all through audio, power has never been the key to quality unless there is need for said power. That said, I suspect the e12 will just be a better amp.


----------



## guitarmaker1970

goodvibes said:


> I'll have to disagree as implied as a generality. More power gets you more volume and the rest is strictly a qualitative endeavor. Rail voltage (source of more power) and sound quality are not synonymous. Generally a better amp in a particular line will be upgraded in all aspects and not just power for better overall performance, also in portables, the supplies can be a bit spongy even if dual battery so a bit of reserve may help more here but it would be due to overcoming other compromises like a lack of stiffness or recovery speed. More power doesn't give better sound so while it may be a common occurrence for portable amps, I'd hate to see this be considered a absolute. Please, lets not get into inaudible steady state distorion measurements compared to other dynamic aspects to argue this. Leave it to IMO if you like but all through audio, power has never been the key to quality unless there is need for said power. That said, I suspect the e12 will just be a better amp.:bigsmile_face:



As a new head-fier, I will like to argue that the majority of us are more aligned with the philosophy of Dr. Timothy "The Tool Man" Taylor.

MORE POWER!!! MORE POWER!!! MORE POWER!!! UURGHH!!! UURGHH!!! UURGHH!!! UURGHH!!!


----------



## goodvibes

That I can believe. Don't forget more bass as well.


----------



## Apo0th3karY

So I've been reading this thread for about an hour. I really have nothing to ask about the E12, other than the effect on bass boost, whether it bloats, and how it affects the rest of the spectrum. I'm also curious how it compares to the C&C BH, but I'll wait til after release to harass the thread. 

 But other than that, I have only this to add;
  


Spoiler: Quote



Quote (and my reaction):


evshrug said:


> jaisan said:
> 
> 
> > Why does one always presume other people are *new* because of small post-counts ? Does large post-counts mean bigger diggery doos ? Maybe some people have been here ie since 2005 then departed and returned to find their User and Pass are no longer applicable?
> ...


----------



## Craigster75

Based on my experience with the E11, FiiO has done a solid job providing significant bass boost that stays confined to the lower region and doesn't intrude on the mids.


----------



## Evshrug

goodvibes said:


> I'll have to disagree as implied as a generality. More power gets you more volume and the rest is strictly a qualitative endeavor. Rail voltage (source of more power) and sound quality are not synonymous. Generally a better amp in a particular line will be upgraded in all aspects and not just power for better overall performance, also in portables, the supplies can be a bit spongy even if dual battery so a bit of reserve may help more here but it would be due to overcoming other compromises like a lack of stiffness or recovery speed. More power doesn't give better sound so while it may be a common occurrence for portable amps, I'd hate to see this be considered a absolute. Please, lets not get into inaudible steady state distorion measurements compared to other dynamic aspects to argue this. Leave it to IMO if you like but all through audio, power has never been the key to quality unless there is need for said power. That said, I suspect the e12 will just be a better amp.:bigsmile_face:




Most commercial amps are better than the one built in to the Galaxy S; I described how. You seem to think I was focusing entirely on voltage... No, I also was talking about what you get with a better amp. I don't pretend to know how to build an amp, though I am picking up, here and there, on how a part affects the overall sound. I don't really feel your post was all that clear, especially that part about "spongy" power supplied by batteries. The first thing I think about a sponge is how absorbent it is, or porous in texture; could you describe what you meant in a different way that is a little less obscure?

If you study this kind of thing and have some extra info to provide, I'm sure it would be of use to many of us. Please keep in mind that I am learning like everyone else, just trying to help. 





apo0th3kary said:


> So I've been reading this thread for about an hour. I really have nothing to ask about the E12, other than the effect on bass boost, whether it bloats, and how it affects the rest of the spectrum. I'm also curious how it compares to the C&C BH, but I'll wait til after release to harass the thread.




Just to add a data point, Feiao mentioned that the bass boost would be very like the E11's bass boost, which from reviews of other amps is quite good and not very destructive. If you look at FiiO's E11 page, you can see the freq curve of the boost effect(s), it peaks in the sub bass range and hardly affects the mids at all, here's the E11 page: 
http://www.fiio.com.cn/products/index.aspx?ID=100000038781911&MenuID=105026001

I'll write impressions about it with my Q701s when I get my amp


----------



## Evshrug

apo0th3kary said:


> So I've been reading this thread for about an hour. I really have nothing to ask about the E12, other than the effect on bass boost, whether it bloats, and how it affects the rest of the spectrum. I'm also curious how it compares to the C&C BH, but I'll wait til after release to harass the thread.




Just to add a data point, Feiao mentioned that the bass boost would be very like the E11's bass boost, which from reviews of other amps is quite good and not very destructive. If you look at FiiO's E11 page, you can see the freq curve of the boost effect(s), it peaks in the sub bass range and hardly affects the mids at all, here's the E11 page: 
http://www.fiio.com.cn/products/index.aspx?ID=100000038781911&MenuID=105026001

I'll write impressions about it with my Q701s when I get my amp


----------



## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





gorillaz said:


> Fiio my boss will go to the show, so I am going to ask him if he can get one for me, how can he locate your booth and what would be the price?


 
   
  Our Booth is located at South Hall 4 / Booth 37136.


----------



## gavinfabl

If only I lived near CES, I would be taking the holiday of my life.


----------



## Dyaems

any idea what is the output current in amperes? even portable amps has this, right?


----------



## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





dyaems said:


> any idea what is the output current in amperes? even portable amps has this, right?


 
   
  I remember it should around 250mA. sorry I am in Airport now. lol.


----------



## Dyaems

thanks!


----------



## Evshrug

jamesfiio said:


> I remember it should around 250mA. sorry I am in Airport now. lol.



Lol thanks for the attention!
If you're looking for entertainment while waiting in lines, look up the "Meet Typical Head-Fi'er Andy" thread 
Link! http://www.head-fi.org/t/571326/meet-typical-headfier-andy


----------



## tortex73

Quote: 





craigster75 said:


> Based on my experience with the E11, FiiO has done a solid job providing significant bass boost that stays confined to the lower region and doesn't intrude on the mids.


 
  Agreed. I have a Fiio e11 and the bass boost does just that- it boosts the bass. It has very little if any noticeable effect on mids. I keep mine on the 1 setting at all times.
   
  I am very much looking forward to the release of the e12. You bet I will be ordering it the moment it's available. The e11 offers great performance for the price and I imagine the e12 will be no different. Just better


----------



## Greed

This little amp has got me very interested. If the initial reviews and impressions are good, then I'm sold. Fiio makes greats products.


----------



## goodvibes

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Most commercial amps are better than the one built in to the Galaxy S; I described how. You seem to think I was focusing entirely on voltage... No, I also was talking about what you get with a better amp. I don't pretend to know how to build an amp, though I am picking up, here and there, on how a part affects the overall sound. I don't really feel your post was all that clear, especially that part about "spongy" power supplied by batteries. The first thing I think about a sponge is how absorbent it is, or porous in texture; could you describe what you meant in a different way that is a little less obscure?





> " a more powerful amp will have more body in the bass and high treble frequencies, and many other small improvements that result from the muscle to drive headphones at their full potential."


 
  There was nothing obscure about it. You claimed more power equals better bass and highs and that's just not true. The galaxy has enough power for moat IEMs, it just isn't quality power. I didn't make a claim, you did. You stated more powerful and not better in your initial post and are changing that up now. Perhaps you should explain why more power sounds better if you don't clip a well designed lower powered amp. You could hook up your headphones to the speaker outs of your home amp and it would be a fine impedance match but it actually sounds worse than a good dedicated headphone amp with a fraction of the power. If you intended to say better amp instead of more powerful amp, it's clearly not what what happened and I was very clear in my 1st response about the difference. You were not yet still called my post obscure.


----------



## goodvibes

I found the e11 bass boost better than most but did reach the mids.  I tend to think of below 50hz as sub bass but it does continue increasing to 50hz. That said, it's a sound that most seems to like and quite useful for them.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I don't judge amps by their EQ which is strictly a preference. Thought the e11 good and have high expectations for the e12.


----------



## Oregonian

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> I think none will be left. don't worry, most customer can buy one in March or April.


 
   
  If you all are bored with CES (hard to imagine), the Adult Film Expo is going on at the exact same time and place across the hall................now, talk about some exciting products!


----------



## sinquito

Quote: 





oregonian said:


> If you all are bored with CES (hard to imagine), the Adult Film Expo is going on at the exact same time and place across the hall................now, talk about some exciting products!


 
  To be honest, actually I don't know for sure which expo would me make more excited about


----------



## pelli

Just got a confirmation email from FiiO finalizing shipping info for the limited E12 pre-order.  Should just be a couple weeks.  Can't wait!!!


----------



## heretolearn

I am sorry for my lack of knowledge when it comes to forums. I am a newbie in that regard as well as using portable headphone amps and such. I have an HTC Rezound for my cellphone and I have purchased a pair of V-Moda M100s. I am wondering if this device would be able to work with these items. Thanks in advance for your answer.


----------



## jacknight

Quote: 





heretolearn said:


> I am sorry for my lack of knowledge when it comes to forums. I am a newbie in that regard as well as using portable headphone amps and such. I have an HTC Rezound for my cellphone and I have purchased a pair of V-Moda M100s. I am wondering if this device would be able to work with these items. Thanks in advance for your answer.


 
   
 yes that device would be able to work with your headphones, but i think your m100s wont be showing it's full potential,


----------



## Craigster75

Quote: 





heretolearn said:


> I am sorry for my lack of knowledge when it comes to forums. I am a newbie in that regard as well as using portable headphone amps and such. I have an HTC Rezound for my cellphone and I have purchased a pair of V-Moda M100s. I am wondering if this device would be able to work with these items. Thanks in advance for your answer.


 
   
  Quote: 





jacknight said:


> yes that device would be able to work with your headphones, but i think your m100s wont be showing it's full potential,


 

 I think if the E12 is all your budget allows, it may be the best value.  I am pleased with the performance of my E11 with the M-100 and the E12 should be far superior.  If cost is not an object, I would recommend the upcoming V-Moda Verza as it was voiced using the M-100.  However, it will likely retail for *5X* the cost of the E12.


----------



## Apo0th3karY

^Just to add to that (and maybe to your confusion 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)

 I just bought a C&C BH, which has some features the E11 and E12 are missing, is cheaper ($100 shipped), and according to the appreciation thread, outperforms the E11.


----------



## Greed

Quote: 





apo0th3kary said:


> ^Just to add to that (and maybe to your confusion
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Does it outperform the soon released E12 though?


----------



## Apo0th3karY

I'm not sure. But I might be willing to get an E12 for comparison sake.


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





apo0th3kary said:


> ^Just to add to that (and maybe to your confusion
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  I would like to make a public service announcement. This deals with a trend the FOTM and other threads have been making.
   
  Most people love it and are looking for people that put popular headphone/unit X against new unit Y and say that Y is better than X. Does that mean anything? It means that it is the person's opinion. I have units that I prefer over more expensive units and so on but it is all opinionated. For example. The user may have only had headphone X and was meh with it. But the new cheaper headphone Y gave him what he wanted and so it did better for him. This is the truth. How it amounts to others is quite different. 
   
  I would just like to make this trend be known.
   
  All opinions are valid none the less. It's really what you are looking for. But of course, the CC BH looks very nice. Low headphone output and power. If you do decide to get the E12 for comparison. Please let me know what you prefer.


----------



## Apo0th3karY

^+1

 I came to understand that about this site, it's totally FOTM with almost everything. As soon as the Magni/Modi was announced it was being recommended for example, and the JVC FXZ100/200s thread exploded with lots of love, but there's still a few that gave them up out of preference. Not that they're a bad choice, but it's just an example of FOTM fanaticism that goes on around here. You make a good point. 

 THAT SAID. I mentioned the C&C BH as an alternative, I have neither amp in possession, but I have been following both threads as my interest in both of these amps have piqued my interest. I do have a C&C BH on it's way to me however, and I'll most definitely be able to afford the E12 by the time it comes out, ergo I'll definitely be able to give impressions/comparisons.


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





apo0th3kary said:


> ^+1
> 
> I came to understand that about this site, it's totally FOTM with almost everything. As soon as the Magni/Modi was announced it was being recommended for example, and the JVC FXZ100/200s thread exploded with lots of love, but there's still a few that gave them up out of preference. Not that they're a bad choice, but it's just an example of FOTM fanaticism that goes on around here. You make a good point.
> 
> THAT SAID. I mentioned the C&C BH as an alternative, I have neither amp in possession, but I have been following both threads as my interest in both of these amps have piqued my interest. I do have a C&C BH on it's way to me however, and I'll most definitely be able to afford the E12 by the time it comes out, ergo I'll definitely be able to give impressions/comparisons.


 
  Thanks. I made the same mistake when I started out. Going through the SRH440 thread, I was waiting for someone to JUST SAY that the M50 was crap compared to it. Needles to say, I found one person say it and bam. The headphones arrived at my door. They are good headphones but I'm a more bassy person.
   
  I look forward to writing my review on it as well.


----------



## Craigster75

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> I would like to make a public service announcement. This deals with a trend the FOTM and other threads have been making.
> 
> Most people love it and are looking for people that put popular headphone/unit X against new unit Y and say that Y is better than X. Does that mean anything? It means that it is the person's opinion. I have units that I prefer over more expensive units and so on but it is all opinionated. For example. The user may have only had headphone X and was meh with it. But the new cheaper headphone Y gave him what he wanted and so it did better for him. This is the truth. How it amounts to others is quite different.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Quote: 





apo0th3kary said:


> ^+1
> 
> I came to understand that about this site, it's totally FOTM with almost everything. As soon as the Magni/Modi was announced it was being recommended for example, and the JVC FXZ100/200s thread exploded with lots of love, but there's still a few that gave them up out of preference. Not that they're a bad choice, but it's just an example of FOTM fanaticism that goes on around here. You make a good point.
> 
> THAT SAID. I mentioned the C&C BH as an alternative, I have neither amp in possession, but I have been following both threads as my interest in both of these amps have piqued my interest. I do have a C&C BH on it's way to me however, and I'll most definitely be able to afford the E12 by the time it comes out, ergo I'll definitely be able to give impressions/comparisons.


 
   
  Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> Thanks. I made the same mistake when I started out. Going through the SRH440 thread, I was waiting for someone to JUST SAY that the M50 was crap compared to it. Needles to say, I found one person say it and bam. The headphones arrived at my door. They are good headphones but I'm a more bassy person.
> 
> I look forward to writing my review on it as well.


 

 All valid points regarding FOTM to help everyone maintain perspective.  I believe the E11 started as FOTM and has graduated to classic value amp.  Regarding headphones, I consider the M-100 to be evolving from FOTM into instant classic.  Also, the PSB M4U2 has been on the market for at least a year and was just named product of year by S&V Magazine.  These are 3 products I believe have "legs" to stand the test of time.  I have high hopes for the E12 as well, but time will tell.


----------



## Hard Head

Quote: 





heretolearn said:


> I am sorry for my lack of knowledge when it comes to forums. I am a newbie in that regard as well as using portable headphone amps and such. I have an HTC Rezound for my cellphone and I have purchased a pair of V-Moda M100s. I am wondering if this device would be able to work with these items. Thanks in advance for your answer.


 

 I have the same phone and use it often as my media player.  You will find the performance of the phone by itself to be rather lackluster.  But, disable Beats (which I feel is crap), try a player like Poweramp (which has a pretty feature-packed EQ), and pair it with a headphone amp, and it'll really wake up!  I use a FiiO E17, which I had hoped to get digital audio out of the Rezound's USB port, but it's not currently possible on this phone.


----------



## Tsujigiri

Weird question, but this is the first amp I've bought. Do these come with a 3.5mm male to male cable, or do you buy those separately? If you buy them separately, is there anything I should be looking for in a good connecter?


----------



## mikeaj

Even their $20 amps come with cables, so I'm assuming you'd get one or two here.  If not, just get something that looks suitable:  decent-looking jacks with strain reliefs, the right length... it all depends on how you're using it.  If you'd be plugging it in and out a lot, some extra sturdiness and gold-plated jacks won't hurt, for long-term service and longevity.  Some people prefer L or J-shaped jacks, others like straight I.  Nothing special.  Don't spend more than a few or several dollars unless you have some very particular requirements, like it looking pretty in a certain way, or being able to withstand cats chewing on it.


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





tsujigiri said:


> Weird question, but this is the first amp I've bought. Do these come with a 3.5mm male to male cable, or do you buy those separately? If you buy them separately, is there anything I should be looking for in a good connecter?


 
  Every FiiO I have came with a 3.5mm male to male interconnect cable. The E12 should come with one. I would be very surprised if it didn't. FiiO is generally good with starting accessories.


----------



## Tsujigiri

Cool, thanks! It looks like interconnects like those that aren't a few feet long are hard to find. My cat's pretty well-behaved, so I'll just stick with the stock cable.


----------



## gavinfabl

Mine arrived early today. Heres some photos to wet your appetites. In real life the E12 looks even better. Extremely impressed with looks and build quality. And sound is an OMG moment. A big review later tonight. Any questions please let me know.

And be sure to click on the photos. These are only the thumbnails. Click each photo to check out in super HQ mode.

Review http://gavinsgadgets.wordpress.com/2013/01/16/fiio-e12-mont-blanc-portable-headphone-amp-review-exclusive/


----------



## putente

Nice pics! It's looks very good indeed! Can't wait to get mine... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Is that and iPod Classic (7th gen, 160GB)? Can you take a few more pictures of the E12 with the iPod on top of it, so I can have an idea on how it will look, please?


----------



## gavinfabl

Yea it is. I can't take any photos now until later but the Classic is shorter than the E12. Actually I think the size is perfect.


----------



## putente

Quote: 





gavinfabl said:


> Yea it is. I can't take any photos now until later but the Classic is shorter than the E12. Actually I think the size is perfect.


 
   
   
  Good to know, as I'll be using my E12 with an iPod Classic too!


----------



## Apo0th3karY

Oh nice. I'm very interested in picking this up later on. I'm interested in knowing how it compares with the C&C BH. I'm awaiting on in the mail, but this amp is the only Fiio that's ever fully interested me, so I might need to get one and make the decision myself


----------



## bowei006

Thanks for the pics  it looks good. My unit will be here soon as well


----------



## gavinfabl

putente said:


> Nice pics! It's looks very good indeed! Can't wait to get mine...
> 
> 
> 
> ...






Here you do, iPod Classic and iPhone 5


----------



## putente

Quote: 





gavinfabl said:


> Here you do, iPod Classic and iPhone 5


 
   
   
  Thank you! It's bigger than I was expecting, with the iPod Classic...


----------



## gavinfabl

It looks bigger in photo as there is a silicone case and I used a crap camera that makes the size seem slighter greater.


----------



## imackler

Quote: 





gavinfabl said:


> Here's my review. In case this post goes over to page 39, on page 38 there are some very high resolution photos. Any questions just ask.
> 
> http://gavinsgadgets.wordpress.com/2013/01/16/fiio-e12-mont-blanc-portable-headphone-amp-review-exclusive/


 
   
  Do you have any other amps to compare it to?


----------



## Digital-Pride

Quote: 





gavinfabl said:


> Here's my review. In case this post goes over to page 39, on page 38 there are some very high resolution photos. Any questions just ask.
> 
> http://gavinsgadgets.wordpress.com/2013/01/16/fiio-e12-mont-blanc-portable-headphone-amp-review-exclusive/


 
   
  880MW @ 32Ohms, 160MW @ 300ohms?!  All for 120 bucks?!  Wow.  I think Fiio has created something special here.  I can't wait to get my hands one.


----------



## gavinfabl

imackler said:


> Do you have any other amps to compare it to?




Yes. I have the e17 here. Did you want a photo or is it sound comparison ?


----------



## imackler

Quote: 





gavinfabl said:


> Yes. I have the e17 here. Did you want a photo or is it sound comparison ?


 
  Nah, that's fine. I was wondering if you had any other high capacity portables amps to compare to. Thanks though!


----------



## gavinfabl

imackler said:


> Nah, that's fine. I was wondering if you had any other high capacity portables amps to compare to. Thanks though!




I compared this to the sound from a Littledot MK1V headphone amp. IMO I preferred the E12. 

Sorry I have no other portables. 




Ps. Review and photos of E12 on page 38.


----------



## imackler

Quote: 





gavinfabl said:


> I compared this to the sound from a Littledot MK1V headphone amp. IMO I preferred the E12.
> 
> Sorry I have no other portables.


 
  Nothing to apologize for!


----------



## gavinfabl

imackler said:


> Nothing to apologize for!




 tbh the combo of the iPod Classic, Fiio E12, my silver /copper lod and my Sennheiser hd568 headphones is one of the best sounds I have preduced out of any amp or headphone that I have owned. My list of cans is in my profile. 


If you have other questions let me know. 

I do have most genres of music, so I someone wants to know what something sounds like for a song let me know. 



PS. Fiio E12 review and high quality photos on previous page, page 38.


----------



## Greed

I hope the E12 is everything I expected, eagerly awaiting someone's comparison between the E12 and the newly praised C&C BH. Interested in both, but would like some solid info on the E12 before I make my decision.


----------



## gavinfabl

greed said:


> I hope the E12 is everything I expected, eagerly awaiting someone's comparison between the E12 and the newly praised C&C BH. Interested in both, but would like some solid info on the E12 before I make my decision.




I can answer on the e12. What would you like extra to know?


----------



## Greed

Quote: 





gavinfabl said:


> I can answer on the e12. What would you like extra to know?


 

 Well basically how does it sound compared other amps (C421, UHA-4, Picoslim, Arrow, etc). I've been in the market for awhile for a portable amp that can power my LCD-2s and HD 650s, because I travel a lot and would like something that can properly drive them. Not sure if you could shed some light on this, but I'm basically wondering if the E12/C&C BH can power those two headphones. Also how well does it compare to the E11 in terms of sonically? I use my IEM's mostly on the go, and to work out so I'm wondering that as well.


----------



## gavinfabl

I can't answer all that. I had an E11 which I found quite dark. The E12 is more natural and the bass boost is more subtle. Sonically the E12 is far superior in all ways than the E11. Not surprising due to its power. 

But the E11 is smaller. I would have the E12 over the E11.


----------



## bowei006

Power!=soundquality


----------



## imackler

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> Power!=soundquality


 
   
  Serious or taunting?


----------



## D1E

So I have spent some time listening to the E12. Bottom line: I'm very impressed. I even hooked up my LCD2s to the portable amp, and it manages to drive them to excessive sound levels. The background is completely black - even with the volume knob at 100%. It probably wouldn't be fair to compare it against my Violectric V200 (at 10X the price), or my O2/ODAC combo (much larger, and also a DAC). It is however, definitely the best truly portable amp I now own, and that's compared against the E17 I have, and the E7 and E11 I have owned in the past.

I'm quite thrilled with it, honestly, as I have now reached end-game with all of my headphones. I'm completely and totally satisfied with my LCD2/Violectric V200/ODAC/Mac Mini combo in my living room, my M-100s at work with E17 as Optical SPDIF and E09K as amp, and now my E12 and M-100s with IPad/iPhone, LOD, and 30-pin adapter(s) for travel/on the go portable use. I can only hope FiiO comes out with a Lightning-native LOD cable for iDevices...


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





imackler said:


> Serious or taunting?


 
  I wasn't saying Power!!! yeah! IT's sound quality right there! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  I was more along the lines of saying that power doesn't equal sound quality. Which is what the ! stood for.


----------



## Craigster75

Quote: 





d1e said:


> So I have spent some time listening to the E12. Bottom line: I'm very impressed. I even hooked up my LCD2s to the portable amp, and it manages to drive them to excessive sound levels. The background is completely black - even with the volume knob at 100%. It probably wouldn't be fair to compare it against my Violectric V200 (at 10X the price), or my O2/ODAC combo (much larger, and also a DAC). It is however, definitely the best truly portable amp I now own, and that's compared against the E17 I have, and the E7 and E11 I have owned in the past.
> 
> I'm quite thrilled with it, honestly, as I have now reached end-game with all of my headphones. I'm completely and totally satisfied with my LCD2/Violectric V200/ODAC/Mac Mini combo in my living room, my M-100s at work with E17 as Optical SPDIF and E09K as amp, and now my E12 and M-100s with IPad/iPhone, LOD, and 30-pin adapter(s) for travel/on the go portable use. I can only hope FiiO comes out with a Lightning-native LOD cable for iDevices...


 

 Glad to hear the M-100 is your end-game portable as it is for me as well unless the AKG Tiesto K267 is a big surprise.  I use M-100 with Vamp which is far superior to my E11, but I may want the E12 as a backup to Vamp or if I ever splurge for an ortho headphone that needs the extra power.


----------



## Craigster75

Quote: 





gavinfabl said:


> I can't answer all that. I had an E11 which I found quite dark. The E12 is more natural and the *bass boost is more subtle.* Sonically the E12 is far superior in all ways than the E11. Not surprising due to its power.
> 
> But the E11 is smaller. I would have the E12 over the E11.


 

 I would be curious to double amp E12 with my ZO2 as I have with my E11, then say goodbye to subtle bass boost


----------



## Dyaems

i hope you guys dont hype the E12 due to "new toy syndrome" =(


----------



## Digital-Pride

Quote: 





dyaems said:


> i hope you guys dont hype the E12 due to "new toy syndrome" =(


 
   
   
  I don't think any of us here are expecting this to be a portable Beta-22 or Blue Hawaii.  But considering its specs, price, and Fiio's reputation for quality products, is it really that surprising that many of us are excited about it?


----------



## Apo0th3karY

Quote: 





dyaems said:


> i hope you guys dont hype the E12 due to "new toy syndrome" =(


 
   
  Isn't that the case with most things though? Even outside of head-fi? I remember when I was a kid, every new toy I got I would want to show off to my friends and play...

 Besides, Fiio is well regarded here, and I don't believe the E12 is being 'hyped' to the same degree as say, the S500, M-100 (800 pages), or FXZ1/200. Not that any of these products don't deserve the hype, because they're all fantastic, but you just have to be cautious when someone comes on a thread saying "OMG THIS IS AMAZING AND 10x BETTER AND CHEAPER THAN THIS INDUSTRY STANDARD", and I don't think that's the case here. 
   
  I believe there's a recently banned user who's been behind a lot of *that* kind of hype. Not that it's the reason for the ban, but it's an example of how someone can hype things up on the internet without even laying hands on the product.
   
  As for myself, I feel like this site is a place for people who love sound to come and share new experiences, and especially with new products people are going to want to know from a user/consumer/hobbyist perspective rather than from a reviewer on say, Engadget , or Gizmodo, where their opinion is taken rather lightly in many cases as they tend to lean one way or another with bias. But it's hard here when you have so many members with different tastes and biases themselves, for people to decide weather the hype is deserved or not without making a purchase.
   
  So I don't think anyone really 'hypes' some products so much as excitement and anticipation ends up making a lot to read on some threads. I don't think there's a hype train here that's lead to more disappointed users than happy ones, but I could be wrong.


----------



## bowei006

The hype train may even last for a while. For example Cataclysm and Diablo 3 where everyone loves it for the first month but then the new toy syndrome wears off.


----------



## gavinfabl

Any new piece of equipment will suffer from new toy syndrome. But if its crap it won't. The E12 is lovely. I am selling my fairly new E17 as I have no need for this now, and I prefer the sound quality of the E12 a lot more.


----------



## Dyaems

sure it will fall with the new toy syndrome, but users who claim it as the "best" even if they only own it for a few days, and have not compared it with a wide range of amps is definitely wrong


----------



## Apo0th3karY

Quote: 





gavinfabl said:


> Any new piece of equipment will suffer from new toy syndrome. But if its crap it won't. The E12 is lovely. I am selling my fairly new E17 as I have no need for this now, and I prefer the sound quality of the E12 a lot more.


 
   
  Interesting, considering the E17 is also a DAC... Could you maybe elaborate some more? 

 This lends me to doubt the usefulness of a portable DAC/amp even further. I mean, when it comes to my various iPod touches and their generations, I have two with Cirrus chips and one with Wolfson, and I can't say one is 'better' than the other_, _definitely different form one another, but it's subjective. I personally like the Cirrus Logic chip better, despite the Wolfson chip being the 'better' of the two around these parts.

 So when it comes to portable DAC/amps, I feel like the DAC part is redundant considering I'm already getting pretty great sound sound already.


----------



## bowei006

apo0th3kary said:


> Interesting, considering the E17 is also a DAC... Could you maybe elaborate some more?
> 
> 
> This lends me to doubt the usefulness of a portable DAC/amp even further. I mean, when it comes to my various iPod touches and their generations, I have two with Cirrus chips and one with Wolfson, and I can't say one is 'better' than the other_, _definitely different form one another, but it's subjective. I personally like the Cirrus Logic chip better, despite the Wolfson chip being the 'better' of the two around these parts.
> ...


 What about the people that go to work or travel that want to strap it to their pmp on the train/plane/ car and then plug it into their laptop at the destination? It isnt useless for everyone. There is a reason it is so popular. 

I personally use portable units as portable units like you. But a few times have come where a dac played in handy


----------



## Apo0th3karY

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> *What about the people that go to work or travel that want to strap it to their pmp on the train/plane/ car and then plug it into their laptop at the destination? It isnt useless for everyone. There is a reason it is so popular.*
> 
> I personally use portable units as portable units like you. But a few times have come where a dac played in handy


 
   
  I was moreso speaking from a personal perspective, but you're right, I hadn't considered that. But I have now, and I still can't see me getting a DAC/amp portable.


----------



## Greed

Quote: 





apo0th3kary said:


> Interesting, considering the E17 is also a DAC... Could you maybe elaborate some more?
> 
> This lends me to doubt the usefulness of a portable DAC/amp even further. I mean, when it comes to my various iPod touches and their generations, I have two with Cirrus chips and one with Wolfson, and I can't say one is 'better' than the other_, _definitely different form one another, but it's subjective. I personally like the Cirrus Logic chip better, despite the Wolfson chip being the 'better' of the two around these parts.
> 
> So when it comes to portable DAC/amps, I feel like the DAC part is redundant considering I'm already getting pretty great sound sound already.


 

 It is also redundant because the DAC portion of the E17 doesn't work with any iDevice unless you are using a CCK (which is added bulk and a hassle to carry around).


----------



## Apo0th3karY

I'll stick with amps.  I don't do hp listening at home so I'll pass on this whole portable DAC business unless it's a Go DAP X or something..... but that's still a months rent lol
   
  Anyways. That helps elaborate why it might sound better than the E17......Back on track, don't want my cynical outlook get in the way of the E12

 I'm kind of excited to get one. It won't be for at least a month, but it'll be the first time I'll have two similarly featured amps to cross examine. 

 I think I'll unsub from this thread until then to stay away from the hype. I've figured out the formula to staying within my financial boundaries on this forum, and it's working lol.


----------



## ClieOS

Mine should be here tomorrow, assuming Fedex actually is on time for once.


----------



## D1E

Quote: 





dyaems said:


> sure it will fall with the new toy syndrome, but users who claim it as the "best" even if they only own it for a few days, and have not compared it with a wide range of amps is definitely wrong


 
  I never said it was the best portable amp, period.  This is what I wrote:
   
"It is however, definitely the best truly portable amp I now own, and that's compared against the E17 I have, and the E7 and E11 I have owned in the past."
   
   I explicitly qualified that it is the best portable amp I _own_, and listed each of the products I have personal experience with, and can honestly compare against.  There are many other portable amps out there which I have not (yet) listened to, and some of those may in fact be better overall products - the Leckerton UHA6-MKII, JDS Labs c421, V-MODA VAMP, etc. Note that some of those amps are also a significantly higher price point.
   
  What I can absolutely say, with 100% confidence, is that the E12 is extremely well-built, is very attractive (in my opinion) with the classic FiiO black brushed aluminum finish, is quite powerful for its small size, and perfectly meets _my_ needs for a portable headphone amp.  But I'm not your typical Head-Fi member, in that I tend to find exactly the sound signature and features I'm looking for, and then _stop searching_.  Is there a headphone better than my Audez'e LCD2s somewhere out there in the world?  Quite possibly, but I am completely satisfied with the music I hear from them, and I spend my time _listening_ to them, rather than searching for another pair and believing the grass is greener in some other backyard.
   
  That's how I feel about the E12 - it meets my needs, and _sounds quite good_.  For the $99 total I paid for it, I consider it a steal.


----------



## gavinfabl

The next day. I'm typing away with my Sennheiser HD568 , iPod Classic and E12 and its so engaging. It's my sound signature. I just took another photo for size comparison.


----------



## imackler

My E12 is taking forever to get from LA to Washington! Doh!


----------



## gavinfabl

Ok. I'm listening to the mp3 version of Dreams of New Orleans by Wycliffe Gordon. This album is notoriously quiet in volume so anything I've used without an amp sounds missing power and oomph. 

With the E12 all the different instruments and nuances of the music can be heard at whatever volume you need to go deaf  the separation and sound stage is all there. 

But for me the over riding aspects is the musicality of the music. I have taken tomorrow off as a days holiday just to listen to my E12. For me this will be my main music source for my listening using the Sennhesier HD568, which have sounded the best out of all the amps I have tried. 

With the HD568 I have used Graham Slee Voyager, E17, Littledot MKIV and my MacBook. But the E12 is what does it for me. 

I really wish you could join me in a group listening session and enjoy what I am hearing. Fiio I love this baby 

When you all get yours I hope you come to the same conclusion.


----------



## putente

It seems mine still hasn't left FiiO...


----------



## bowei006

My E12 is comming today. Should get it in a few hours.


----------



## imackler

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> My E12 is comming today. Should get it in a few hours.


 
  What country are you in? Mine finally made it to Seattle. I'm hoping tomorrow!


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





imackler said:


> What country are you in? Mine finally made it to Seattle. I'm hoping tomorrow!


 
  I'm in the states. East Coast though. 
   
  I'm borrowing a friends E11 for a review comparison.


----------



## Robius

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> My E12 is comming today. Should get it in a few hours.


 
  Please share your firs impressions as soon as it arrives


----------



## bowei006

It's very beautiful
   
   
   
  https://www.dropbox.com/sh/tbjirm3g7oc5axh/jLMFe3UZcG
   
  Pics in the link.
   
  Nothing too big to note on the sound yet. It wouldn't be fair to give these an impression with only a few minutes.
   
  Usability issues are showing up though.


----------



## thegrobe

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> Usability issues are showing up though.


 
  What type of issues? Size? Build quality? Please elaborate..


----------



## imackler

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *bowei006* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> It wouldn't be fair to give these an impression with only a few minutes.
> 
> Usability issues are showing up though.


 
   
  Yes it would! Impress away! Well, I guess moderation is more fitting. 

 What do you mean by "Usability"?


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





imackler said:


> Yes it would! Impress away! Well, I guess moderation is more fitting.
> 
> What do you mean by "Usability"?


 
  The E12 is legit a flagship amp.
   
  -Waiting for further info-


----------



## imackler

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> With the E12, the volume pot isn't a "Fast" one. It is in a slightly awkward position(like the E11) and the angle the LOD protrudes at make it so that it may get tangled up if you pull it out too quick.


 
  I never liked that about the E11. On the other hand, I would rather cautiously turn the volume than hurt my ears longterm. But the line-in positioning always made the volume pot feel cramped. That seems like a disappointing design flaw on the E12.


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





imackler said:


> I never liked that about the E11. On the other hand, I would rather cautiously turn the volume than hurt my ears longterm. But the line-in positioning always made the volume pot feel cramped. That seems like a disappointing design flaw on the E12.


 
  -waiting for further info-
   
  I've only heard it for 10 minutes. I am finishing up other work now and am leaving it to play some music. I don't particularily deal with SS burn in but some do and why not. I have to burn in a pair of earbuds anyway.
   
  However with those 10 minutes I have had it. This must be the most radically different FiiO I have ever heard. With all the other FiiO's I have heard. They had the same qualities. Sweet warm, and bassy. With different variations of each. With the E12. I feel like it's still trying to keep it's warm, sweet and universal sound signature but trying to break into a larger "audiophile" world. Basically, it's more "colorless". I wouldn't say flat but it is a lot more colorless.
   
  Take that with a grain of salt. I only had a 10 minute non serious listen with one headphone. It can change at any time and that is not my official opinion. My official opinion will be in my review which will be out in February along with all my other ones.


----------



## Mani ATH 87

It sounds pretty cumbersome to need a pin just to change gain settings, in fact that sounds downright stupid.


----------



## Greed

Wait... wah... you need a pin to change the gain setting?


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





greed said:


> Wait... wah... you need a pin to change the gain setting?


 
  And crossfeed. It is recessed. 

   
   
  A ball point pen fits in.


----------



## Mani ATH 87

I don't understand why they wouldn't have just made it a switch, that seems so silly to me.


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





mani ath 87 said:


> I don't understand why they wouldn't have just made it a switch, that seems so silly to me.


 
  Their bass boost has the switch. 
   
  It's not really a problem, its just a quirk. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  I don't really mind. Like I said before. I see it as more of a slow down and enjoy type of unit.


----------



## Apo0th3karY

I see the logic in having the gain switch recessed, accidentally switching that in your pocket would be baaaad. And I think Wed know once were out if we have high impedance or sensitive phones, so that wouldn't need to be changed 'fast' for most. But the crossfeed I would have expected to be easier to access, but there has to be some logic to why they made it recessed in comparison. 

As for the volume pot, yeah that does look inconvenient but it also looks well guarded from accidental pocket turns by the LOD and hp out cable. I can't see it being a big functionality issue more than a small inconvenience for most.


----------



## Mani ATH 87

It's more of an inconvenience and a silly design decision, especially for something considered portable. I actually don't think that it looks nearly as nice as the E17 or the E07K so it will be interesting to see what it brings sound quality wise.

 What is the price point on the E12?


----------



## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





imackler said:


> What country are you in? Mine finally made it to Seattle. I'm hoping tomorrow!


 
   
《Sleepless in Seattle》, What a beautiful city and city must to go in my life.​   
   
 ​


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





apo0th3kary said:


> I see the logic in having the gain switch recessed, accidentally switching that in your pocket would be baaaad. And I think Wed know once were out if we have high impedance or sensitive phones, so that wouldn't need to be changed 'fast' for most. But the crossfeed I would have expected to be easier to access, but there has to be some logic to why they made it recessed in comparison.
> 
> As for the volume pot, yeah that does look inconvenient but it also looks well guarded from accidental pocket turns by the LOD and hp out cable. I can't see it being a big functionality issue more than a small inconvenience for most.


 
  Yep, there is that. the bands, could move and ...yeah, it would be very bad. Considering the output of this device.
   
  It lies flat. The volume pot does not protrude from the sides. IT is also a bit stiff. I have barely used it yet so it may need to be used before it gets a bit looser. I don't want it loose but I don't need it this hard eitherl
  Quote: 





mani ath 87 said:


> It's more of an inconvenience and a silly design decision, especially for something considered portable. I actually don't think that it looks nearly as nice as the E17 or the E07K so it will be interesting to see what it brings sound quality wise.
> 
> What is the price point on the E12?


 
  I personally prefer the look of the E12. The E07K doesn't look as majestic in real life in my opinion. 
   
  $120. Most places in the U.S offer free shipping (micca store)
   
  MP4nation has international free worldwide shipping but you should buy local in case something happens
   
   
   
  This is a pre production unit. There may be changes. If there was, I would prefer a non recessed cross feed switch. That's it. I would actually prefer and like it that the gain was recessed. If there was a way to change it without a pen while still not being a problem of sliding the band. I would go for it, but as of this moment, there is no other way.
   
   
   
  FiiO E12 pictures have been posted and updated on Reddit /r/headphones
 http://www.reddit.com/r/headphones/comments/16sbsn/new_fiio_e12_mont_blanc_flagship_amplifier/
   
  http://imgur.com/a/9DE79
   
  Some prefer Imgur. I prefer to use dropbox as Imgur non pro down converts pics to 1MB.


----------



## JamesFiiO

We will add two short silicon bands ( same as the band in our E17/E07K/E11) from mass production.
   
  Very sorry the reason that we provide long silicon band is to prepare for the future products so the E12 can banded with our E19/X5 in the future. but we forget the iPhone4 and other slim DAP


----------



## Digital-Pride

Personally, I don't view the recessed gain and cross feed switch as a negative or a deal breaker.


----------



## Mani ATH 87

> This is a pre production unit. There may be changes. If there was, I would prefer a non recessed cross feed switch. That's it. I would actually prefer and like it that the gain was recessed. If there was a way to change it without a pen while still not being a problem of sliding the band. I would go for it, but as of this moment, there is no other way.


 

 Of course there is other ways they could do it. They could have a switch that is less recessed then the current implementation, making the switch strong would easily prevent it from changing by accident in your pocket. They could always have an option to lock it from switching. 

 Not a huge deal really, just nitpicking, but it could be done better


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> We will add two short silicon bands ( same as the band in our E17/E07K/E11) from mass production.
> 
> Very sorry the reason that we provide long silicon band is to prepare for the future products so the E12 can banded with our E19/X5 in the future. but we forget the iPhone4 and other slim DAP


 
  May you comment on the desicion for recession in the crossfeed and gain. We see why gain is recessed so that the gain doesn't suddenly change it to 10 while you are with IEM. But I think crossfeed does not need to be.
   
  A popular LOD with FiiO's and iPod's is the L9 because it wraps around the device so well. It is small and fits just really nicely with the other FiiO's. However with the E12, it can only be used so that it protrudes out
   

   
   
  the only other way, will block the headphone out.
   

   


   
   
*@James*
*This problem is solved with the L3 or L11 with a short custom 3.5mm cable or any other LOD that isn't an L shaped one*
   
*I* am just saying that I really liked how the L9 just wrapped around the Andes, Alpen and E5. 
   
  Maybe headphone out on top would have worked? I saw your PCB though, and the battery is at the end so that wouldn't work now I guess.


   
   
  @Everyone.
  These issues are minor though for some people.
   
  I would recommend using last gen FiiO bands (if you got the ones with the wide ones already, James just said they will add both) and an L3 or L11 with the E12. The L9 is not a good choice with it.
   
  The bass boost on the E12 is NOT like what FiiO has given before. It is a very small one.


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





digital-pride said:


> Personally, I don't view the recessed gain and cross feed switch as a negative or a deal breaker.


 
  I don't either. I will only use IEM's that need a 0 gain with the E12 or any portable amp anyway. If I want to test big headphones. I sit down, and switch it to 10. 
   
  Crossfeed...that is a different one. Sometimes, I may want to add some crossfeed. Getting a pen would be troublesome.
  Quote: 





mani ath 87 said:


> Of course there is other ways they could do it. They could have a switch that is less recessed then the current implementation, making the switch strong would easily prevent it from changing by accident in your pocket. They could always have an option to lock it from switching.
> 
> Not a huge deal really, just nitpicking, but it could be done better


 
  As reviewers, we need to nit pick


----------



## Oregonian

mani ath 87 said:


> Of course there is other ways they could do it. They could have a switch that is less recessed then the current implementation, making the switch strong would easily prevent it from changing by accident in your pocket. They could always have an option to lock it from switching.
> 
> 
> Not a huge deal really, just nitpicking, but it could be done better




I liked how the E-11 had the volume pot shielded/covered. It kept the "pocket adjustments" from happening. I don't like the connectors right next to it though, and it appears the E-12 is much the same. Failure to read and learn on Fiio's part I guess or no room to relocate. 

That all said as an owner of 5 Fiio products and a ZO, I'll probably get an E-12.......


----------



## Evshrug

I just got my Mont Blanc around 3:45 today.

The short of it: when I first tried it, the sound appealed to my head and sounded very technically honest and pretty good, but my heart wasn't all that into it because it wasn't digging into the texture and emotion like my tube amp. All the bits of the sound were there, but i wasn't being compelled by the beat nor having a moment like I had described with the same Muse track I mentioned before. I would agree with Boweii's earlier comment, I'd describe the E12 to sound "neutral" and drive the Q701s to sound "native" to the drivers and song mastering/producing.

But I took a break, made a coffee run, came back, and everything's the same yet totally different. Put on Arcade Fire's "The Suburbs," while I was writing about the instrument layering and soundstage depth of "Sprawl I" to Dyaem, it seemed like I was chasing a moving target. The main instruments still seemed up front but strings and a tapping stick expanded back in the mix, suddenly it was apparent that the piano was a bit behind the guitars and singer, and as I was trying to write the music kept playing, and then...

On the last track, near the end, and a low bass note softly hit me — instant chills. And now, the music seems heartfelt, a something hard to quantify like my Q701 drivers are vibrating more freely. This is after about 3 hours of listening today... I can't explain what changed. If I had to guess, I haven't used my Q701s for a few weeks, perhaps the headphone drivers got slightly stiff? I'm still on the fence about "BURN IN EVERYTHING!!!" but my experience is that either my ears or the headphone drivers do change how I experience the music.

I'll write a full description covering everything I can think of later and nicely lit pictures from my DSLR in my actual review, but for now, those are my initial impressions. I also made a YouTube video to show the dimensions & stuff, here:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=dk2vCfuWWL0


----------



## Oregonian

jamesfiio said:


> We will add two short silicon bands ( same as the band in our E17/E07K/E11) from mass production.
> 
> Very sorry the reason that we provide long silicon band is to prepare for the future products so the E12 can banded with our E19/X5 in the future. but we forget the iPhone4 and other slim DAP




We need a way to purchase extra of the bands and need them thinner as a choice. 

Just asking.


----------



## Oregonian

bowei006 said:


> May you comment on the desicion for recession in the crossfeed and gain. We see why gain is recessed so that the gain doesn't suddenly change it to 10 while you are with IEM. But I think crossfeed does not need to be.
> 
> A popular LOD with FiiO's and iPod's is the L9 because it wraps around the device so well. It is small and fits just really nicely with the other FiiO's. However with the E12, it can only be used so that it protrudes out
> 
> ...




What exactly is cross feed? And am I reading this right that this isn't much of a bass booster?


----------



## pelli

Quote: 





oregonian said:


> What exactly is cross feed?


 
  Cross feed mixes a bit of the L and R channels into the opposite channel.  It creates a bit of a binaural effect.  Much like listening to speakers, live performances, etc., you hear a bit of what is happening on your left in your right ear, and a bit of what is happening to your right in your left ear.  Some are fans, some not...


----------



## Apo0th3karY

Crossfeed (aka crosstalk) is best explained like this
  Stereo, you have two channels, left and right, and no cross talk between them. Hard left and hard right stereo sound
  Mono, there's 100% cross talk - Left ear will get the exact same sound as the right, regardless of recording.
   
  Crossfeed is when the hard left and right stereo be come softer, and sounds form the right channel can be heard in the left channel.
  It's to emulate a two channel speaker set up; you'll be hearing some of the left channel in your right ear and vice versa because the speakers aren't isolated against your ears, they're in an open room.


----------



## bowei006

oregonian said:


> I liked how the E-11 had the volume pot shielded/covered. It kept the "pocket adjustments" from happening. I don't like the connectors right next to it though, and it appears the E-12 is much the same. Failure to read and learn on Fiio's part I guess or no room to relocate.
> 
> That all said as an owner of 5 Fiio products and a ZO, I'll probably get an E-12.......



The E12 has not been fully consumer crowd tested by me in a natural enviroment yet(read: playing with it) but as of this moment. The volume pot looks like it will not move. It is on there tight and turning it isnt a fast spin. It needs a bit of force





evshrug said:


> I just got my Mont Blanc around 3:45 today.
> 
> The short of it: when I first tried it, the sound appealed to my head and sounded very technically honest and pretty good, but my heart wasn't all that into it because it wasn't digging into the texture and emotion like my tube amp. All the bits of the sound were there, but i wasn't being compelled by the beat nor having a moment like I had described with the same Muse track I mentioned before. I would agree with Boweii's earlier comment, I'd describe the E12 to sound "neutral" and drive the Q701s to sound "native" to the drivers and song mastering/producing.
> 
> ...



I feel the same as you did before. Sound was there. But i wasnt really feeling it. I took a 20min listen just now and its getting there. I feel like there is a trait about the E12 but i cant put my finger on what is so different about it. 

It may be my iPod but I have gotten a few moments of unstable highs. I sometimes feel like the bass resp is a bit anemic and that the vocals arent as present.

I need more testing. Those are not full real impressions. Just quick thoughts.

I like what Fiio has done. It isnt going to please everyone though. I myself have taken a big hit with this one. As the L9 doesnt way to play ball with the E12


----------



## Evshrug

I haven't tried the crossfeed on mine yet, but FWIR you gain from mixing some of the stereo mix is a more centralized sound image, sometimes adding to soundstage depth. With the mastering on some songs, though, it messes up the soundstage that the producer processed into the sound file itself, especially if they baked in a crossfeed effect into the song mix already. For example, I use a virtual surround processor with my Xbox, which is kind of like a more advanced version of crossfeed itself, and adding the additional crossfeed from the Mont Blanc would hurt the positional cue accuracy.

I think the Mont Blanc looks like a mini Monolith, from 2001: A Space Odyssey.





Boweii,
We have the same headphones too, though. At first, I thought "Oh. This amp is so honest, I think this is what the AKG Q701s sound like." The bass was cold and tight like people commonly describe the Qs, and though hard impacts were felt hard, i felt like something was causing the emotion to be held back. Then, it changed after a few hours. I don't think the amp burned in, nor do I think just now I've hit the "magical" 100 hour mark on my headphones, BUT I am starting to think that sometimes our ears or headphone drivers "warm up." Or, there's something else going on entirely, it's just a theory, but I am having more "fun" now. I sincerely doubt the amp changed.

Here's how mine is plugged in. I have my elastic bands diagonal to make them a tighter fit:

Yes, I use the L11 with my iPod classic (which is a little shorter than an iPod Touch or iPhone). I think if the included, short cable was L angled on one end and | straight on the other, it would be perfect. The headphone cable is (most likely) straight anyway. I had this combo in my back pocket earlier (with my green, 9ft long cable wrapped around my waist like a belt!) with the double-L cable sticking out the side rather than wrapped around the headphone cable like you see in the pic, it worked OK but I dislodged the L11 dock when I moved a bunch.

Still wouldn't go outside with these headphones, even as cool as I think they look


----------



## Apo0th3karY

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> I think the Mont Blanc looks like a mini Monolith, from 2001: A Space Odyssey.


 
   
  Kinda ominous


----------



## imackler

For those guys in the US who have gotten the E12, did you have to pay customs when they delivered? If so, how much? Did they only accept cash? Thanks!


----------



## JamesFiiO

Add the official introduction of Mont Blanc in first page.


----------



## Evshrug

Boweii,
i added more stuff to my last post in response to you, please go back and tell me what you think.

Imackler,
The DHL delivery man just dropped it off, so far I haven't been charged extra. I just asked FiiO for a tracking number really late Tuesday night, SOMEHOW the Mont Blanc got all the way from Hong Kong to my house in less than two days! Ridiculous but awesome 

Feiao,
Great update! Do you have any questions for user feedback, or is there anything you'd like us to point out?


----------



## sbtruitt

```

```



jamesfiio said:


> Add the official introduction of Mont Blanc in first page.




Cool. Q: I might have missed it, what is the output impedance of it?


----------



## gavinfabl

Been listening now for over 5 hours. The E12 is mesmerising. I am rediscovering all my music. I am today going to take 20 different tracks and try to describe the experience. So pleased those that got yours like them too


----------



## Evshrug

Gavinfabi,
I indeed have been enjoying mine. I also have been listening to many songs with it, perhaps getting carried away... but as far as sounds, with my Q701, I've yet to notice much difference from my huge $200 Yamaha receiver. I'm not saying one is better than the other, they both have their purposes and features that are very different and aren't really competing products, but...

Not saying anything, just sayin' 

Disclamer: Side by side tests haven't happened, and I'm not comfortable trying to find sonic differences and trying to explain them. In my world, high-quality solid state amps sound largely the same, it's the features and how you use a product that defines differences and need.

Sbtruitt,
I looked almost the whole way through this thread, from the beginning, to find this post for you. Hope it's worth it to you; the importance of output impedance theory may be just a myth for headphones without crossovers, like those found in speakers with multiple drivers.


jamesfiio said:


> The input impedance should higher than 10K, and the output impedance is less than 0.5 ohms. the final output power is >850mW at 32ohms.


----------



## gavinfabl

evshrug said:


> Gavinfabi,
> I indeed have been enjoying mine. I also have been listening to many songs with it, perhaps getting carried away... but as far as sounds, with my Q701, I've yet to notice much difference from my huge $200 Yamaha receiver. I'm not saying one is better than the other, they both have their purposes and features that are very different and aren't really competing products, but...
> 
> Not saying anything, just sayin'
> ...




That's good to hear. I agree need more comparisons with other devices. Maybe the E12 sound signature works better with my Sennheiser HD568 than anything else so far. Not tried other headphones other than Bose AE2i, but you can't call those cans 

If you had a Samsung S3 or Note , I am right in saying you would have to use the headphone out?


----------



## Evshrug

Gavinfabi,
What I mean to say, most amps of high quality that aim NOT to color the sound will likely sound about the same. I think it's best for people interested in their first or second amp to manage their expectation that three "neutral" measured amps might only have a smidgen of a sonic difference, while different headphones have quite different "flavors" to their sonic signature. I mean to test this theory by swapping between different Solid State amps, but from memory there's just not much to contrast between their frequency response. Now, amps that DO color the sound are a whole 'nother matter, like a tube amp or a SS amp with a bass-boost (or crossfeed) effect.

Do you get the feeling of what I'm trying to say?

As far as those Samsung smartphones you mention, I really don't know if they make line-out adapters for them (to bypass the phone's amplification and headphone jack). Maybe. What I generally do if I'm double-amping, as you will be if you plug the FiiO into the smartphone's headphone jack, is put the smartphone's volume at a little bit lower from 100%, so that you get the best signal-to-noise ratio (S:N or SNR, more commonly) while backing the volume down just enough to avoid any clipping. Then, control your listening volume with the Mont Blanc. If that's still too loud at the Mont Blanc's quietest setting, turn the Samsung down a bit more. Double-amping has worked fine for me, though it softens the smallest details just a tiny bit.


----------



## gavinfabl

evshrug said:


> Gavinfabi,
> What I mean to say, most amps of high quality that aim NOT to color the sound will likely sound about the same. I think it's best for people interested in their first or second amp to manage their expectation that three "neutral" measured amps might only have a smidgen of a sonic difference, while different headphones have quite different "flavors" to their sonic signature. I mean to test this theory by swapping between different Solid State amps, but from memory there's just not much to contrast between their frequency response. Now, amps that DO color the sound are a whole 'nother matter, like a tube amp or a SS amp with a bass-boost (or crossfeed) effect.
> 
> Do you get the feeling of what I'm trying to say?
> ...




Yes I get what you are saying. I still find it surprising that the E12 sound is better for me than my tube amp, even on jazz. 

I thought the same with the S3. I don't have one but my friend does, and I just wanted to make sure I told him the correct information. 

I am using my iPod Classic via the line out. 




My photos and first review on page 38, 
http://www.head-fi.org/t/620339/fiio-flagship-portable-amp-mont-blanc-e12-discussing-thread-the-pre-order-unit-arrives/555


----------



## DarKu

Hy guys,
   
  I received my review sample of the E12 yesterday and I listened to it for few hours straight.
  To tell you the truth, I'm blown away...
  I cannot understand how such a slim and small device can have such a big and airy sound to it.
  I'm feeling it even drives my HD800 and LCD-2 to it's full potential.
  I LOVE the crossfeed feature with my very old jazz and rock recordings where extreme stereo sound was used. I also love the subtle but very good bass on/off feature. For example on E10 I didn't like how bass boost was implemented, as it changed also lower mids and the tonal balance was changed. I'm happy to tell that on E12 there isn't such a problem, bass boost is subtle and I like a lot with my HD800 and Ultimate Sound 3D CIEM.
  Regarding THD (distorsion) i can clearly hear a lot lower of it than I do with E17, E12 sound is crystal clear and very spacious, even effortless I must say. Like amplifier disappears and just lets the music flow. In some ways I even prefer E12 to the bigger brother E09K.
  That is a serious accomplishment, bravo FiiO, I like E12 a lot.
  The build quality, the attention to detail is just stunning.
  My full review will be posted next week, more to come..


----------



## gavinfabl

darku said:


> Hy guys,
> 
> I received my review sample of the E12 yesterday and I listened to it for few hours straight.
> To tell you the truth, I'm blown away...
> ...




Happy days


----------



## goodvibes

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Gavinfabi,
> What I mean to say, most amps of high quality that aim NOT to color the sound will likely sound about the same. I think it's best for people interested in their first or second amp to manage their expectation that three "neutral" measured amps might only have a smidgen of a sonic difference, while different headphones have quite different "flavors" to their sonic signature. I mean to test this theory by swapping between different Solid State amps, but from memory there's just not much to contrast between their frequency response. Now, amps that DO color the sound are a whole 'nother matter, like a tube amp or a SS amp with a bass-boost (or crossfeed) effect.
> 
> Do you get the feeling of what I'm trying to say?
> ...


 
  You can change coupling or supply caps on the same amp, get the same measurement and a noticeable difference in sound. Sometimes you can notice a charge pump supply vs a standard +- type supply. It's up for debate but I think the point of this amp was to be better sounding since an E11 already drives about everything and measures great.


----------



## gavinfabl

evshrug said:


> I haven't tried the crossfeed on mine yet, but FWIR you gain from mixing some of the stereo mix is a more centralized sound image, sometimes adding to soundstage depth. With the mastering on some songs, though, it messes up the soundstage that the producer processed into the sound file itself, especially if they baked in a crossfeed effect into the song mix already. For example, I use a virtual surround processor with my Xbox, which is kind of like a more advanced version of crossfeed itself, and adding the additional crossfeed from the Mont Blanc would hurt the positional cue accuracy.
> 
> I think the Mont Blanc looks like a mini Monolith, from 2001: A Space Odyssey.
> 
> ...




I love the monolith pictures


----------



## ClieOS

Just received mine. Haven't really spent much time except for testing for functions but so far so good.


----------



## bowei006

evshrug said:


> I haven't tried the crossfeed on mine yet, but FWIR you gain from mixing some of the stereo mix is a more centralized sound image, sometimes adding to soundstage depth. With the mastering on some songs, though, it messes up the soundstage that the producer processed into the sound file itself, especially if they baked in a crossfeed effect into the song mix already. For example, I use a virtual surround processor with my Xbox, which is kind of like a more advanced version of crossfeed itself, and adding the additional crossfeed from the Mont Blanc would hurt the positional cue accuracy.
> 
> I think the Mont Blanc looks like a mini Monolith, from 2001: A Space Odyssey.
> 
> ...



Ill spend more time with it today

Yeah. Moving aroun is quite hard


----------



## Evshrug

For some _unknown_ reason, I can't sleep tonight  I woke up after only a few hours sleep.



gavinfabl said:


> Yes I get what you are saying. I still find it surprising that the E12 sound is better for me than my tube amp, even on jazz.
> 
> I thought the same with the S3. I don't have one but my friend does, and I just wanted to make sure I told him the correct information.
> 
> ...




Tube amps can be fussy sometimes. From a user's standpoint, it is easier to predict what result you'll get with a Solid State amp, though I still like to fuss with my tube amp 

I did read your review, twice actually because you posted it in the reviews section and it still shows on the front page right now. A nice review, though I bet many people would like to hear a little more to hold them over during the wait for the general release. One or two notes about your experience with a song would probably feed the appetite for "more!" Lol 


DarKu and Goodvibes,
I will freely admit that I'm just starting to learn about the effects of components that make up an amp. Like I said, I haven't been listening to my Mont Blanc side-by-side to other amps yet, I've been having too much fun with this one  I've seen people use distortion to describe different flaws – since this amp has such a low THD, could you help me learn and describe the affect THD has on the sound?

I haven't heard the E11 myself, though I was intending to get one as an upgrade to my E5. That is, until the Mont Blanc came along. I still think the E11 is a capable amp and will continue to serve many people well, especially mid- and low-fi headphones and low budgets, but I feel like the Mont Blanc is ready for almost anything 

ClieOS,
I look forward to your succinct yet detailed review break-down  Amp makers are keeping you busy, aren't they! It's an exciting time.


----------



## gavinfabl

evshrug said:


> For some _unknown_ reason, I can't sleep tonight  I woke up after only a few hours sleep.
> Tube amps can be fussy sometimes. From a user's standpoint, it is easier to predict what result you'll get with a Solid State amp, though I still like to fuss with my tube amp
> 
> I did read your review, twice actually because you posted it in the reviews section and it still shows on the front page right now. A nice review, though I bet many people would like to hear a little more to hold them over during the wait for the general release. One or two notes about your experience with a song would probably feed the appetite for "more!" Lol
> ...




If you go to my blog, I've just added an update. Look on page 38 for link, then go to home page for it. 

It definitely has got better after a few hours burn. I will add my blog update later into Head Gear section as well.


----------



## bowei006

Fiio has some magic with the volume pot. In my pocket on the go right now. It is very very hard to turn with one hand and a few fingers at a perpindiculur angle. However making the unit vertical to my hand allows for easy turning.

No idea what centripetal physics they used to make it like this but it is cool. Be it a coincidence or not. That the e12 wont turn volume so easily unless you turn it at the "right" way


----------



## gavinfabl

Further to my first post on page 38 ,with my initial impressions I thought I would some more feedback using specific tracks. For this test I am using an iPod Classic with a silver & copper line out cable and a pair of Sennheiser HD568 headphones. My music is ripped at mp3 320 bit rate. I have the E12 bass boost left on as the HD568 seem to sound so much better. The bass boost doesn’t seem to distort the sound, just add when the music needs some very low oomph but not in any way overpowering. Anyway here goes –

Dreams of New Orleans by Wycliffe Gordon – Chinatown – great separation of the trumpets from each side, and clear separation of the other instruments. A superb musical sounding song. The E12 presentation puts you right in the music. I feel like I’m grooving to the beat.

Greatest Hits by Queen – Bohemian Rhapsody – I had to turn the volume down for this track. The E12 did everything as before, even with voices but as the songs attack changes, the E12 seems to scale effortlessly with it. In fact as the track gets louder, the E12 just exploded with attack.

Thriller by Michael Jackson – Thriller – a classic track. At the start there’s great sub bass in the cemetery. The E12 reproduces the song very accurately picking out all the nuances.

Hit The Road Jack by Ray Charles – an old recording but has a superb toe tapping musicality produced by the E12.

Isla by Portico Quartet – Dawn Patrol – this track really defines just how good the E12 is sonically. The plucking of the bass strings, the deep bass, the other instruments all around too just produce an electric performance.

Fantasie by Nicola Benedetti – The Lark Ascending – the violin playing at the start is leaving goose bumps on me. The violin feels so alive. Airy. The E12 is producing a neutral but emotional sound. Mesmerising too.

Love me by Norah Jones – Norah’s voice sounds superb. Another very musical track.

I Heard Love is Blind by Amy Winehouse – Amy’s voice is so real with such precision on the guitar in the background. In fact the realism of the track is excellent.

In summary, the E12 plucks all the nuances from your music, making it sound alive with toe tapping musicality. It also does seem to have improved with low level bass after 3 hours use. It’s accurate, fairly neutral sounding and packs so much energy that your headphones perform magic.


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> ClieOS,
> I look forward to your succinct yet detailed review break-down
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Ha, I do have another prototype amp from the U.S. waiting for review, more on that on the upcoming weeks. Might have a chance to review the iFi iCAN in the short future as well.
   
  Back to E12 - just did a quick 5 ways comparison between E12, iBasso T5, JDS Labs C4210 (AD8620), Leckerton Audio UHA-4 (OPA209) and O2. It is easy to tell T5 is the weakest of them own and not in the same lead as others. Some quick impression: E12 does belong to the top-tier group. It is on the musical side of things and offer richer tone and texture than the other three (C421, UHA-4, O2), but comes out short on soundstage, especially on width. It reminds me on Pico and some old RSA, but not nearly as colored. Of course, this is just very brief listening. I still need to give it a good burn-in and more listening time before the final verdict.


----------



## Evshrug

clieos said:


> Ha, I do have another prototype amp from the U.S. waiting for review, more on that on the upcoming weeks. Might have a chance to review the iFi iCAN in the short future as well.
> 
> Back to E12 - just did a quick 5 ways comparison between E12, iBasso T5, JDS Labs C4210 (AD8620), Leckerton Audio UHA-4 (OPA209) and O2. It is easy to tell T5 is the weakest of them own and not in the same lead as others. Some quick impression: E12 does belong to the top-tier group. It is on the musical side of things and offer richer tone and texture than the other three (C421, UHA-4, O2), but comes out short on soundstage, especially on width. It reminds me on Pico and some old RSA, but not nearly as colored. Of course, this is just very brief listening. I still need to give it a good burn-in and more listening time before the final verdict.




Interesting impression.

You know how some headphones are bass monsters (like Sony's XB series?) that add LOTSA BASS to any song, even a female vocal or violin solo? The AKG Q701 I have is like a soundstage width monster  I'm gonna say the amp & cans balance eachother, in this case. What was your reference headphone?


----------



## sbtruitt

evshrug said:


> Gavinfabi,
> 
> 
> Sbtruitt,
> ...




Thanks a lot for finding this, I missed it.
BTW - having a low/ optimal output impedance is definitely not a myth for headphones. Give it a google and find the blog 'Headphone and Amp Impedance' it's a good article on the subject.


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> .... What was your reference headphone?


 
   
  RE0, at least for evaluating amp. I am very familiar with its sound and it responses well to different amps.


----------



## gavinfabl

I'm now trying another headphone , my fav portable can, and before you all shout me down, I really like the Bose AE2i. It is extremely comfortable and has a relaxing sound. The controls for my iPad or iPhone are handy too. 

So listening to La Grange by ZZ Top - I've noticed the cans full fuller in sound, wider and more punchy. More attack and the beat. 

Mannish Boy by Muddy Waters - the electric guitar rift is superb

St Louis Blues by Wycliffe Gordon - still has the musicality but compared to my Sennheiser HD568 the Bose sound like they have a missing link. 

What I'm finding the E12 does to the Bose cans is add raw punch and speed. Good for generic music or music with lots of beats. What the E12 also does it highlight the deficiencies of the Bose with better produced music with instruments, a wide stage and depth. I think the E12 take the Bose to its sonic maxims or near too. So for a track like We Speak Americano by Yolando Be Cool the deep bass and speed the E12 brings to the equation, along with better vocals makes me think I'm listening to a different headphone. Ultimately the E12 shines better with the Sennheiser.


----------



## Evshrug

Gavinfabio,
I'm not going to bash you for having and enjoying a Bose. I may have just used their motto as part of a joke in another thread, but the higher-end Bose do have great comfort and some of the very best active noise canceling. Their lush and smooth sound won't win awards for detail or neutrality, but the sound sig combined with the ANC is good for people who want to kinda numb themselves from the world. The triports are just bad, but you don't have those


----------



## Craigster75

I haven't heard this combo, but am dreaming it as the ultimate portable setup:  E12 with Ultrasone Signature DJ


----------



## gavinfabl

evshrug said:


> Gavinfabio,
> I'm not going to bash you for having and enjoying a Bose. I may have just used their motto as part of a joke in another thread, but the higher-end Bose do have great comfort and some of the very best active noise canceling. Their lush and smooth sound won't win awards for detail or neutrality, but the sound sig combined with the ANC is good for people who want to kinda numb themselves from the world. The triports are just bad, but you don't have those




I have major problems with headphone clamping. And the pain my ears suffer. Very free headphones are comfortable enough for me, the Bose are slippers but I agree not sonically the best but reasonable.


----------



## gavinfabl

clieos said:


> RE0, at least for evaluating amp. I am very familiar with its sound and it responses well to different amps.




I used to have a pair of the REOs. Can't wait to read your views on how they sound with the E12. It could be a very good match.


----------



## pelli

I'm getting a little antsy finding out my E12 wont arrive until Monday... Has anyone have impressions from this amp with harder to drive headphones (i.e. LCD-2 or HD 650)?  seems like that is the real test / point of having all that power...


----------



## Tsujigiri

I'll test it with my HD650's tonight, but my opinion won't be as valuable as I have no other amps to compare it to. Pretty excited to hear it, though, I've been at school all week so I haven't gotten to listen to it even though it was delivered to my home on Tuesday.


----------



## Evshrug

Sadly, I just realized that the Mont Blanc's charging mini USB tip isn't the same as the one on the L11 LOD  The upside is the Mont Blanc's mini USB tip _is_ the same as on my cellphone, Recon3D USB DAC and sound processor, and Wacom pen tablet. So that's good, can never seem to get enough cables of that type, and I guess it's just the L11 that is the odd one out.



pelli said:


> I'm getting a little antsy finding out my E12 wont arrive until Monday... Has anyone have impressions from this amp with harder to drive headphones (i.e. LCD-2 or HD 650)?  seems like that is the real test / point of having all that power...




DarKu posted about his enjoyment using the Mont Blanc with the LCD-2. I think he also used an HD800 with it. Like, two pages back. He was impressed by the very low THD.


----------



## pelli

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> DarKu posted about his enjoyment using the Mont Blanc with the LCD-2. I think he also used an HD800 with it. Like, two pages back. He was impressed by the very low THD.


 
  Thanks, I guess I missed that


----------



## Mani ATH 87

Gavinfabl: You sound like you are pretty close to marrying the E12. LoL


----------



## SteveSatch

I would love to know how it stacks up to the JDS Labs C421.


----------



## UnityIsPower

bowei006 said:


> I don't either. I will only use IEM's that need a 0 gain with the E12 or any portable amp anyway. If I want to test big headphones. I sit down, and switch it to 10.
> 
> Crossfeed...that is a different one. Sometimes, I may want to add some crossfeed. Getting a pen would be troublesome.
> As reviewers, we need to nit pick




I always carry a Sanford uni-ball ONYX micro with me LOL. I only really used the E17 for bass boost on my iPhone 4 before I sold it. Cleaning up the audio from my PC a bit was not needed really as I was going to purchase a ASUS Xonar Essense. I like FiiO as a company and how they engage with this community. I will order the E12 later on to try it out. I think upping the bass a bit every now and then on more neutral phones is all I need, not to mention it looks sexy. Thanks for the effort u guys place in putting out reviews. Rock on


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





unityispower said:


> I always carry a Sanford uni-ball ONYX micro with me LOL. I only really used the E17 for bass boost on my iPhone 4 before I sold it. Cleaning up the audio from my PC a bit was not needed really as I was going to purchase a ASUS Xonar Essense. I like FiiO as a company and how they engage with this community. I will order the E12 later on to try it out. I think upping the bass a bit every now and then on more neutral phones is all I need, not to mention it looks sexy. Thanks for the effort u guys place in putting out reviews guys. Rock on


 
  The bass upping on the E12 is very minute compared to what FiiO has done in the past. A lot more subtle and small and more refined than others.


----------



## UnityIsPower

bowei006 said:


> The bass upping on the E12 is very minute compared to what FiiO has done in the past. A lot more subtle and small and more refined than others.



Sounds... Perfect. LOL 

P.S. when did this site get a mobile version, forgot to ask. Typing and reading on my iPhone was unpleasant but is now much better. The page still reverts to the top at times when reading(frustrating) but still nice to see a mobile ver.


----------



## gavinfabl

mani ath 87 said:


> Gavinfabl: You sound like you are pretty close to marrying the E12. LoL




lol you can come to the wedding


----------



## Apo0th3karY

half my time on here is on mobile hahah. It's been a few months. Since November at the earliest, maybe October. 
   
  Anyways, my guess is the bass boost is geared towards more bass-lite phones where the extra bass might be needed, not necessarily for bassheads. And not a very large boost to get int the way of mids. I think it's a smart move for a flagship. Still wondering about the Crossfeed toggle being recessed and the logic there. 
   
  This is sounding like a very nice flagship indeed and I'm sure will be a very popular product. I'm pretty excited to hear this for myself.


----------



## UnityIsPower

apo0th3kary said:


> half my time on here is on mobile hahah. It's been a few months. Since November at the earliest, maybe October.
> 
> Anyways, my guess is the bass boost is geared towards more bass-lite phones where the extra bass might be needed, not necessarily for bassheads. And not a very large boost to get int the way of mids. I think it's a smart move for a flagship. Still wondering about the Crossfeed toggle being recessed and the logic there.
> 
> This is sounding like a very nice flagship indeed and I'm sure will be a very popular product. I'm pretty excited to hear this for myself.




I was away from this site for a good chunk of time, thanks for the info. The bass boost u mention is exactly what I'm looking for. I want music as recorded 90% of the time with a bit of bass added every now and then.


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





unityispower said:


> Sounds... Perfect. LOL
> 
> P.S. when did this site get a mobile version, forgot to ask. Typing and reading on my iPhone was unpleasant but is now much better. The page still reverts to the top at times when reading(frustrating) but still nice to see a mobile ver.


 
  2 months ago I believe.


----------



## imackler

Quote: 





stevesatch said:


> I would love to know how it stacks up to the JDS Labs C421.


 
  I'll see if I can have a short comparison up tomorrow. I recently sold my C421 but I have one I can borrow.


----------



## Tsujigiri

Listening to it right now! It certainly does make the HD650's sound a lot better, much more engaging and with better bass and treble. I'm really glad I waited for the more powerful E12; it seems perfectly suited for these phones. Without the amp, my Zune plays the HD650's nice and loud at 25/30 on the volume bar. With the amp on high gain, it will play them at 15/30 (although a lower volume is more comfortable, especially for extended listening). As the other reviewers have noted, the build of the E12 is very nice, but the recessed buttons are slightly annoying (not a big deal). What really surprised me is how much I like the bass boost. I didn't think that I would use it, but I think I'll keep it on all the time. It actually doesn't seem to make any difference on the songs that don't have a lot of deep bass, but on the songs that have sub bass it compensates quite well for the HD650's low end rolloff without adding coloration. It really seems like this amp was made for the HD650's.


----------



## Apo0th3karY

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *Tsujigiri* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> What really surprised me is how much I like the bass boost. I didn't think that I would use it, but I think I'll keep it on all the time. *It actually doesn't seem to make any difference on the songs that don't have a lot of deep bass, but on the songs that have sub bass it compensates quite well for the HD650's low end rolloff without adding coloration.* It really seems like this amp was made for the HD650's.


 
   
   
  *ding ding ding*
   
  I think we have an audiophile winner here.
   
  How about the effect on sound signature? Does it add a warm/bright tilt? Does it bring mids forward at all? Does it box in the sound stage compared to unamped? Or does it improve upon the soundstage? 
   
  As for the volume pot being stiff, I like the sounds of that, micro adjustments will be easier. Has anyone tested the efficacy of LOD vs 3.5-3.5 interconnect? How's battery life; does the sound degrade after so long?


----------



## gavinfabl

tsujigiri said:


> Listening to it right now! It certainly does make the HD650's sound a lot better, much more engaging and with better bass and treble. I'm really glad I waited for the more powerful E12; it seems perfectly suited for these phones. Without the amp, my Zune plays the HD650's nice and loud at 25/30 on the volume bar. With the amp on high gain, it will play them at 15/30 (although a lower volume is more comfortable, especially for extended listening). As the other reviewers have noted, the build of the E12 is very nice, but the recessed buttons are slightly annoying (not a big deal). What really surprised me is how much I like the bass boost. I didn't think that I would use it, but I think I'll keep it on all the time. It actually doesn't seem to make any difference on the songs that don't have a lot of deep bass, but on the songs that have sub bass it compensates quite well for the HD650's low end rolloff without adding coloration. It really seems like this amp was made for the HD650's.




I think the E12 was made for Sennheiser. My HD568 react exactly the same as the HD650.


----------



## Gorillaz

gavingfabl is there any pop noise when conecting your iem or when turning on or off the amp?
  that's my main concern about amps!


----------



## gavinfabl

gorillaz said:


> gavingfabl is there any pop noise when conecting your iem or when turning on or off the amp?
> that's my main concern about amps!




With my Sennheiser HD568 there is no pop noise when connecting with amp on and volume all the way down. With amp off there is no noise. And there is no noise switching on or off. 

So in summary there is no noise 

I have no IEM's around at moment to test.


----------



## Gorillaz

Quote: 





gavinfabl said:


> With my Sennheiser HD568 there is no pop noise when connecting with amp on and volume all the way down. With amp off there is no noise. And there is no noise switching on or off.
> 
> So in summary there is no noise
> 
> ...


 
  Thanks for replying! I guess this amp might be perfect for my headphones I just REALLY HATE POP sounds!


----------



## bowei006

apo0th3kary said:


> *ding ding ding*
> 
> I think we have an audiophile winner here.
> 
> ...



The L9 does not physically work well with it. The L11 might but only if you have a 1 inch interconnect cable which i dont



gorillaz said:


> gavingfabl is there any pop noise when conecting your iem or when turning on or off the amp?
> that's my main concern about amps!



Not a pop. Just a very very slow noise when its turned on. There is a physical noise but that is from the amp itself to the outside world and not through headphone


----------



## gavinfabl

bowei006 said:


> The L9 does not physically work well with it. The L11 might but only if you have a 1 inch interconnect cable which i dont
> Not a pop. Just a very very slow noise when its turned on. There is a physical noise but that is from the amp itself to the outside world and not through headphone




I cant hear any pop. I hear nothing. There is a click when switching the amp on, but that is a mechanical sound. Very reassuring. If I plug my cans into my iPad mini I hear pops. 

I must try my L9. Will let you know how I get on.


----------



## Gorillaz

Well since this amp is not that expensive I'll get it once it's available!


----------



## JamesFiiO

bowei006 said:


> The L9 does not physically work well with it. The L11 might but only if you have a 1 inch interconnect cable which i dont
> Not a pop. Just a very very slow noise when its turned on. There is a physical noise but that is from the amp itself to the outside world and not through headphone




we have installed a tiny relay inside the Mont Blanc, so the headphone will not connected to the amp output till the power on noise is disappear. the physical noise is the sound when the relay is connect. also the relay will disconnect when there are any DC output or over current output so it can protect your expensive headphone.

I don't remmember any other portable amps have such design but it is very common in speaker amplifier. also we put the same tiny relay in our X3.


----------



## Gorillaz

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> we have installed a tiny relay inside the Mont Blanc, so the headphone will not connected to the amp output till the power on noise is disappear. the physical noise is the sound when the relay is connect. also the relay will disconnect when there are any DC output or over current output so it can protect your expensive headphone.
> 
> I don't remmember any other portable amps have such design but it is very common in speaker amplifier. also we put the same tiny relay in our X3.


 
  Great!!! you really don't know how I hate POPs, you know must ciems and High Def Headphones are really expensive to have those pops when using a dap or amp!
   
  Feiao for President!


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> we have installed a tiny relay inside the Mont Blanc, so the headphone will not connected to the amp output till the power on noise is disappear. the physical noise is the sound when the relay is connect. also the relay will disconnect when there are any DC output or over current output so it can protect your expensive headphone.
> 
> I don't remmember any other portable amps have such design but it is very common in speaker amplifier. also we put the same tiny relay in our X3.


 
  Sorry about that. I typed that when I was still in bed. I was remembering another amp. 
   
  I was wondering what the physical noise is.
   
  Would it have been possible to design it this way:
   
*Mont Blanc Side*
*---------------------------------------------------------------------------*
*(  Volume)  --status--*
*(             )  --lights--     (input)             (headphone)*
*----------------------------------------------------------------------------*
*FiiO side*
   
  or:
   
   
*Mont Blanc Side*
*---------------------------------------------------------------------------*
*(Volume  )                      --status--*
*(             )   (input)           --lights--        (headphone)*
*----------------------------------------------------------------------------*
*FiiO side*
   
   

*Or*
   
*Mont Blanc Side*
*---------------------------------------------------------------------------*
*(Volume  )                                       --status--*
*(             )   (input)     (headphone)     --lights--       *
*----------------------------------------------------------------------------*
*FiiO side*

   
   
   
   
  I feel like the L9 doesn't go on very well, the L3 will leave a bit of wire hanging off and with the L11, you would still need a very small interconnect to go with it. 
   
  If the input was more to the left (as we are looking at it with the FiiO sign on bottom and mont blanc on top) I think the L9 would be able to be ergonomically better while still leaving a hole for headphones.


----------



## Oregonian

gorillaz said:


> Thanks for replying! I guess this amp might be perfect for my headphones I just REALLY HATE POP sounds!




Popping "thump" = power. Me like. You should hear the thump when I power up the dual ZO/E11 combo.


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





oregonian said:


> Popping "thump" = power. Me like. You should hear the thump when I power up the dual ZO/E11 combo.


 
  You may like but it can cause problems for those with IEM's and especially CIEM's.


----------



## Gorillaz

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> You may like but it can cause problems for those with IEM's and especially CIEM's.


 
  that's my concern, damage to my expensive ciems and even if they were cheap


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





gorillaz said:


> that's my concern, damage to my expensive ciems and even if they were cheap


 
    


> *feiao* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> 
> we have installed a tiny relay inside the Mont Blanc, so the headphone will not connected to the amp output till the power on noise is disappear. the physical noise is the sound when the relay is connect. also the relay will disconnect when there are any DC output or over current output so it can protect your expensive headphone.
> ...


----------



## Gorillaz

I know, I'm just waiting to be available!!!


----------



## bowei006

I'm on 10 Gain with 4/10 volume. With the charger in, I get a small high pitched noise. It get's louder as you increase the volume. This noise is REALLY small. 
   
  I have done some more testing and found that with some "active" inputs. The sound will get loud enough to be annoyingly heard while with others it retains the same volume.
   
  iPod (no music playing) with LOD plugged into E12 while charging gives me same level of volume
   
  Audio gd as DAC plugged into E12 (a movie is on pause) increases the buzzing and high pitched noise by quite a lot.
   
  I will do more testing and see if this happens on lower gains and what specifically causes the higher sound with the different input methods.
   
  E12 is slow charging for those that are wondering.


----------



## Oregonian

​


			
				bowei006 said:
			
		

> .You may like but it can cause problems for those with IEM's and especially CIEM's.




What do you guys do then? Turn the amps on, then plug in the IEM's? I didn't realize the issue - learn something new every day.


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





oregonian said:


> What do you guys do then? Turn the amps on, then plug in the IEM's? I didn't realize the issue - learn something new every day.


 
  If that is really a big problem for people with IEM's. That amp probably is gone the next day. Headphones and amps are neccessities, they are a luxury. You buy stuff you like that works well and if it doesn't work well, then you move on to a better one
   
  But if you want to test IEM's with an amp that does that, yeah. You turn it on, lower the volume by a lot and then plug the IEM's in.


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





oregonian said:


> What do you guys do then? Turn the amps on, then plug in the IEM's? I didn't realize the issue - learn something new every day.


 
   
  Just so we be clear: That is the correct way to use ANY amp. Always plug in the headphone after you turn the amp on, not before.


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





clieos said:


> Just so we be clear: That is the correct way to use ANY amp. Always plug in the headphone after you turn the amp on, not before.


 
  Well that is if you are testing with stuff you don't know.
   
  For something like the E12 or other units that you know don't have a loud transient pop on turn on with headphones that you are familiar with and know won't have trouble with. I would say you wouldn't need to always do it.
   
  On another note
  I have been marathoning Ghost in the Shell. I LOVE Tachikoma!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





. I don't really care for anyone else. But Tachikoma is great. Especially near the end of Season 1!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Great assisting character.


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> Well that is if you are testing with stuff you don't know.


 
   
  No, that is when you are doing it in the correct way. Just because you want to skip a step because you believe it is safe to do so doesn't make it a correct practise when using an amp, or any source in the matter. Better to keep a good habit then regret latter. Another good habit to have is to always learn to turn the volume knob down to minimum before plugging in a headphone and after removing the headphone. It is the little trivial things that will save you in the long run.


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





clieos said:


> No, that is when you are doing it in the correct way. Just because you want to skip a step because you believe it is safe to do so doesn't make it a correct practise when using an amp, or any source in the matter. Better to keep a good habit then regret latter. Another good habit to have is to always learn to turn the volume knob down to minimum before plugging in a headphone and after removing the headphone. It is the little trivial things that will save you in the long run.


 
  I'll keep that in mind when I test out new stuff. Thanks.
   
  To be honest, I only posted to get a comment out of you/conversation on the show as I am enjoying it right now. But this is the E12 section so I get it.


----------



## Tsujigiri

Quote: 





apo0th3kary said:


> *ding ding ding*
> 
> I think we have an audiophile winner here.
> 
> ...


 

 I don't think it alters the sound signature that much in terms of warm/bright, but everything does sound more alive. The instruments sound a lot closer and more to the front, but I'm not sure how much of that is the amp's soundstage and how much is the drivers being properly driven.
   
  I haven't run out of batteries yet, but it did charge very fast when I got it. I haven't heard this detail mentioned, but apparently the amp has two charging rates depending on how much power it can get through the USB. It signals this by blinking the battery light slower or faster. So if anyone has an E12 that's taking a long time to charge, it might be on the slow rate and need a better USB port to go faster. And yes, you can use it while it charges, unlike the E11.


----------



## gavinfabl

clieos said:


> Just so we be clear: That is the correct way to use ANY amp. Always plug in the headphone after you turn the amp on, not before.




When I had my Little Dot tube amp, I never did that. It was plug headphones in first, and generally left them in. Always had volume on minimum to start with. I assume this applies to solid state amps then?


----------



## Tsujigiri

I think this thread needs more pictures....


----------



## gavinfabl

I can't see any more pictures


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





gavinfabl said:


> When I had my Little Dot tube amp, I never did that. It was plug headphones in first, and generally left them in. Always had volume on minimum to start with. I assume this applies to solid state amps then?


 
   
  No, you are just being lucky so far. Tube amps is generally much more noisy than solid state as they require warm up. They also tend to have more voltage drift during start up as well, as more prone to failure in general. Even though the odds flavour you, it is still Russian roulette in the long run and you just have to wish for no problem during start up as a big DC voltage spike might just burn out whatever you are connecting o the amp.


----------



## sinquito

Quote: 





tsujigiri said:


> I think this thread needs more pictures....


 
  Oh man, that zune HD is really sexy, I also own one just like yours and find the HP kinda weak, my Alessandro MS1i are well driven at 14 without amp and with my handmade cmoy make that just 5 or 6. How does that fiiio is working for you?


----------



## Evshrug

gavinfabl said:


> When I had my Little Dot tube amp, I never did that. It was plug headphones in first, and generally left them in. Always had volume on minimum to start with. I assume this applies to solid state amps then?




As ClieOS said, tube amps generally are MORE dangerous and less predictable than solid state amps! That first moment the amp turns on, the pop is like a SS amp on high gain with the volume turned very high going POP! for a moment. Bad for your hearing, and as the other have said, could "pop" out your headphones too. Though SS amps generally are more predictable, that moment where everything becomes active at once when you turn it on is still dangerous.

Many people don't know that, so the delay Feiao mentioned that was built-in to the E12 is a nice safety feature that should help 99% of the time... but still it's better to be safe than sorry, and just plug in your headphones after turning your amp on.

-----
ClieOS' avatar is pretty cool, I like the choice for it's symbolism: the machine with a soul. You can imagine how that relates to audio gear and music 
I personally thought the TV show was "Ghost in the Shell: Lite" compared to the first movie. The little blue guys don't appear in the movie, but the concepts are more mature and characters IMO more interesting. I didn't like the second movie too much though, I thought there were too many disjointed and overly complex scenes, as if the director was grasping to express a challenging idea but didn't know how to express it clearly. The first Ghost in the Shell, Akira, Neon Genesis Evangalion, Princess Mononoke, Spirited Away, and a few others were/are my favorite Animes before I moved on to other hobbies.

Boweii, under what conditions do you hear those whine noises? I'll see if I can reproduce them with my gear, *but* I suspect you are just hearing amplified background noise from other components before the Mont Blanc. To be honest I haven't even needed to try high gain yet 
-----

Apothecary,
I could not detect a difference between bass boost on or off, unless a really low bass note hit, and then the effect was just a bit more presence for that bass note. And I think that's perfect, I feel like the boost is "safe" to leave on with almost any song. It doesn't change vocals or acoustic guitar, and even with bass-heavy dubstep and trip-hop tracks the bass doesn't clip levels and distort. I would like to watch the movie Inception with the bass boost on, that'll be fun


----------



## sweex

Quote: 





tsujigiri said:


>


 
  I guess the Mont Blanc pens are just laying there by coincidence


----------



## Craigster75

I have no issue with the recessed crosstalk and gain.  I actually prefer it as it is two less switches that could be accidentally adjusted.  With a portable amp such as this, it is easy to move the wrong switch.  IMO, crosstalk and gain are more personal preference and headphone dependent, so they wouldn't need to be changed often which is probably the reason they are recessed.  I like the looks and overall design, especially for the amount of power the E12 puts out.  My Vamp is only 150 mw x 2 and I sometimes run near full power with my M-100.  I would need the E12 if I purchase more power-hungry headphones.


----------



## goodvibes

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> we have installed a tiny relay inside the Mont Blanc, so the headphone will not connected to the amp output till the power on noise is disappear. the physical noise is the sound when the relay is connect. also the relay will disconnect when there are any DC output or over current output so it can protect your expensive headphone.
> 
> I don't remmember any other portable amps have such design but it is very common in speaker amplifier. also we put the same tiny relay in our X3.


 
  I thought it looked like a relay from the picks. Is this because there's no output coupling caps? I assume that you're still using a charge pump so that you don't need to worry about offset drift. Has the supply been refined as well?


----------



## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





goodvibes said:


> I thought it looked like a relay from the picks. Is this because there's no output coupling caps? I assume that you're still using a charge pump so that you don't need to worry about offset drift. Has the supply been refined as well?


 
   
  Not , the Relay is designed to avoid " Pop" sound when turn on/off the amp and other situation when we need to isolate the output of the amp with headphone.
   
  the Mont Blanc used +/- 11V power supply not any charge pump and output capacitor.


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Boweii, under what conditions do you hear those whine noises? I'll see if I can reproduce them with my gear, *but* I suspect you are just hearing amplified background noise from other components before the Mont Blanc. To be honest I haven't even needed to try high gain yet


 
   
  Those are voltage step up noise from the power switching circuit. To get the full benefit from the opamp, E12 must runs on very high voltage with a true dual-supply. The original idea was the AAA Li-ion batteries pack that give +/-14V that needed to be charge separately, but it was discarded in flavour of the current +/-11V batteries setup (there was a vote / opinion gathering of some sort if any of you remember) - lower in voltage, but still high enough to do the job, and can be charged by USB. However, to get the 5V USB charging to work on a +/-11V system, you will need a step up circuit and like any circuit of this kind, they tend to be noisy. In exchange however, we are spared from carrying a dedicated charger or the inability to use when charging. I'll say it is a compromise for the better.


----------



## imackler

Quote: 





clieos said:


> However, to get the 5V USB charging to work on a +/-11V system, you will need a step up circuit and like any circuit of this kind, they tend to be noisy. In exchange however, we are spared from carrying a dedicated charger or the inability to use when charging. I'll say it is a compromise for the better.


 
   
  Hey ClieOS, 
   
  Sorry if these are stupid questions. Will wall chargers that plug into a USB work for non computer charging? Either way, will I be able to charge the E12 if I plug it into my laptop? Or do I need a separate "step up circuit" (not sure what that is) to charge from my laptop? 
   
  Thanks!


----------



## bowei006

evshrug said:


> As ClieOS said, tube amps generally are MORE dangerous and less predictable than solid state amps! That first moment the amp turns on, the pop is like a SS amp on high gain with the volume turned very high going POP! for a moment. Bad for your hearing, and as the other have said, could "pop" out your headphones too. Though SS amps generally are more predictable, that moment where everything becomes active at once when you turn it on is still dangerous.
> 
> Many people don't know that, so the delay Feiao mentioned that was built-in to the E12 is a nice safety feature that should help 99% of the time... but still it's better to be safe than sorry, and just plug in your headphones after turning your amp on.
> 
> ...




And Clieos explained it. I had tested with nothing connected with E12 except headphone and charger, and then with various things plugged in.

I think he said that he choose tachikoma because he just liked it?


----------



## pelli

Quote: 





imackler said:


> Hey ClieOS,
> 
> Sorry if these are stupid questions. Will wall chargers that plug into a USB work for non computer charging? Either way, will I be able to charge the E12 if I plug it into my laptop? Or do I need a separate "step up circuit" (not sure what that is) to charge from my laptop?
> 
> Thanks!


 
  Yes, the add says it will charge from both 1A/h and 2 A/h chargers.  It should charge from all laptops, car and wall chargers.


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





imackler said:


> Hey ClieOS,
> 
> Sorry if these are stupid questions. Will wall chargers that plug into a USB work for non computer charging? Either way, will I be able to charge the E12 if I plug it into my laptop? Or do I need a separate "step up circuit" (not sure what that is) to charge from my laptop?
> 
> Thanks!


 
   
  Actually non-PC / USB adapter is recommended for recharging E12 - in fact, you should get a high power rating USB adapter since E12 is a bit power hunger when it comes to recharging. As fiiO has suggested in the manual, 2A output (which is what USB 2.0 can output in max) works the best. Most USB port on PC only go from 500mA to 1A. Some even go only up to 250mA, which will take a longer time for you to fully recharge the E12. Many laptop actually only supply 500mA max, or have different rating on different USB port. You can still use them, but it will take longer. Even a 2A charger will need 2+ hours to fully charge a E12.
   
  In short, any USB port (PC or USB adapter) can charge E12, but it will be faster if it is on higher output USB port.
   
  Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> I think he said that he choose tachikoma because he just liked it?


 
   
  Does it really matters?


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





imackler said:


> Hey ClieOS,
> 
> Sorry if these are stupid questions. Will wall chargers that plug into a USB work for non computer charging? Either way, will I be able to charge the E12 if I plug it into my laptop? Or do I need a separate "step up circuit" (not sure what that is) to charge from my laptop?
> 
> Thanks!


 
  Following what CLEIOS said
   
  Slow charge= healthier battery in long run
  fast charge=not as health.
   
   
 Quote: Me 





> *Correct Panda Battery Procedure:*
> When the device is in use, do not use USB charge. Turn it off. When the E17/E07K is on it's final bar of battery, turn USB charge(or the USB cable) on and charge it to full. And then unplug or turn off USB charge and use until you are on your last bar of battery left. When you see the bars reduce to one, it would be best to start charging(sometimes you are out, and you can't, that's understandable, a few times won't hurt). Li-ion batteries like the one's found the in the FiiO E17 Alpen's don't react well to a full cycle of charge and FULLY de charge until the battery is dead. This has been proven to be actually *bad* to the life of li-ioin batteries. *HOWEVER.*, you should do a full cycle where you fully charge up the device and use it all the way until the device automatically turns off *ONCE* every month or two as that has been shown to actually be good for the battery *WHETHER you use it constantly or not. *Do not fear my friend, even if USB charge is turned off when the device "dies" it will still charge after it runs out of power naturally as the E17/E07K's firmware will reset!
> 
> Li-ION batteris on general will last effectively 1000 complete charges before battery drops below about ~70% of the original storage. This is still acceptable by most consumers standards.
> ...


 
  
  
 But hey. Do you buy a car and keep it in a garage for the rest of its life? 
  
 No. You use that thing. Whatever suits your life style  I use the instructions as it's not that hard to do but some just don't remember. And that's fine. 
   
  Quote: 





clieos said:


> Does it really matters?


 
  Yes. As a member of the anime thread on head-fi. I must know the reasons. Especially because Tachikoma is my favorite supporting character/character in general of Ghost in the Shell.


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> Following what CLEIOS said
> 
> *Slow charge= healthier battery in long run*
> *fast charge=not as health.*


 
   
  Wait, when did I say that?


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





clieos said:


> Wait, when did I say that?


 
  No. I said that. I just added more info.
   
  I'm not an expert. But I have done much reading on li-ion batteries. And it said that generally a slow charge will lead to an overal healthier battery than a fast charge for li-ions. However my rebuttal is that if you always use a product and keep it safe, you won't be able to enjoy it. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  Correct me if I'm wrong. This is just what I have got from reading around on sources and etc.


----------



## Tsujigiri

Quote: 





sinquito said:


> Oh man, that zune HD is really sexy, I also own one just like yours and find the HP kinda weak, my Alessandro MS1i are well driven at 14 without amp and with my handmade cmoy make that just 5 or 6. How does that fiiio is working for you?


 
   
  Very well! Sound quality is much improved, and the power is definitely there for my HD650's (so I don't have to crank the volume up all the way). With the amp on max output, I can get a volume about equivalent to 25 unamped at just 15 with the amp. That's pretty loud, though, comparable to about 18 unamped for my Grado SR-80i's (should be about the similar to your Alessandros). For more comfortable and extended listening, you don't even have to turn it up that high.
   
  Quote: 





sweex said:


> I guess the Mont Blanc pens are just laying there by coincidence


 
   
  Haha I was wondering if anyone would notice. I can use them to change the crossfeed and gain, right?


----------



## gavinfabl

Who cares about the battery. By the time it goes there will be the E13 out


----------



## sinquito

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> Following what CLEIOS said
> 
> Slow charge= healthier battery in long run
> fast charge=not as health.


 
  The links didn't work for me, I have read on XDA developers (useful forum, bad layout) that you must charge your batteries (lithium) as many times as you can. I don't know for sure, but I'm about to take a Chemestry course on my Tech Institute (studying EE), so maybe latter I can make a better statement.
  Quote: 





tsujigiri said:


> Very well! Sound quality is much improved, and the power is definitely there for my HD650's (so I don't have to crank the volume up all the way). With the amp on max output, I can get a volume about equivalent to 25 unamped at just 15 with the amp. That's pretty loud, though, comparable to about 18 unamped for my Grado SR-80i's (should be about the similar to your Alessandros). For more comfortable and extended listening, you don't even have to turn it up that high.
> 
> 
> Haha I was wondering if anyone would notice. I can use them to change the crossfeed and gain, right?


 
  Great, thanks that's very useful, gonna wait for that Fiio E19, if not then the E12 it is. Nice Montblanc pens joke


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





sinquito said:


> The links didn't work for me, I have read on XDA developers (useful forum, bad layout) that you must charge your batteries (lithium) as many times as you can. I don't know for sure, but I'm about to take a Chemestry course on my Tech Institute (studying EE), so maybe latter I can make a better statement.
> Great, thanks that's very useful, gonna wait for that Fiio E19, if not then the E12 it is. Nice Montblanc pens joke


 
  Lithium ion
   
  Ask your prof  
   
  The links work for me?


----------



## sweex

Quote: 





tsujigiri said:


> Haha I was wondering if anyone would notice. I can use them to change the crossfeed and gain, right?


 
   
  That's some very expensive switch you're using.


----------



## bowei006

Pics


----------



## Tsujigiri

Quote: 





sweex said:


> That's some very expensive switch you're using.


 

 It increases soundstage tenfold!


----------



## Typhoon859

What's the point of crossfeed?  Doesn't that just decrease the soundstage?  Crosstalk is something that's tried to be minimized as much as possible and now here is this function which is intentional.  I don't get it...


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





typhoon859 said:


> What's the point of crossfeed?  Doesn't that just decrease the soundstage?  Crosstalk is something that's tried to be minimized as much as possible and now here is this function which is intentional.  I don't get it...


 
  Crosstalk is like tires of a car. Some like big tires, some like some ones.
   
  It isn't something everyone needs to try to minimize or get rid of. 
   
  This is a good post by Leckerton on it:
  http://www.leckertonaudio.com/2010/09/what-is-headphone-crossfeed/


----------



## Tsujigiri

Quote: 





typhoon859 said:


> What's the point of crossfeed?  Doesn't that just decrease the soundstage?  Crosstalk is something that's tried to be minimized as much as possible and now here is this function which is intentional.  I don't get it...


 

 It's for severely stereo recordings that have sounds that come out of only one channel. It can be pretty annoying to listen to recordings like that when the drums are only on one side and the guitars are only on the other etc. Crossfeed mixes the channels a little so it's not flat like mono but it's not annoying. Other than those type of recordings, though, I don't like the way it sounds.


----------



## Chris J

Subbed


----------



## goodvibes

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> Not , the Relay is designed to avoid " Pop" sound when turn on/off the amp and other situation when we need to isolate the output of the amp with headphone.
> 
> the Mont Blanc used +/- 11V power supply not any charge pump and output capacitor.


----------



## reza7392d

Quote: 





gavinfabl said:


> Who cares about the battery. By the time it goes there will be the E13 out


 
   
  LOL


----------



## bowei006

FiiO E12 unboxing is up


----------



## Mani ATH 87

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> FiiO E12 unboxing is up


 

 Nice video panda man. The E12 is actually a little bigger then I thought it was after seeing you holding it. It seems to be on the cusp of me not considering it a portable size, it looks bigger then something I'd normally want to carry around with me on the bus or while being out in general. 

 I wonder how long it will be until Fiio considers making an amp/dac not in the portable catagory, because the size of the E12 really seems to be pushing it.


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





mani ath 87 said:


> Nice video panda man. The E12 is actually a little bigger then I thought it was after seeing you holding it. It seems to be on the cusp of me not considering it a portable size, it looks bigger then something I'd normally want to carry around with me on the bus or while being out in general.
> 
> I wonder how long it will be until Fiio considers making an amp/dac not in the portable catagory, because the size of the E12 really seems to be pushing it.


 
  Mabe. In real life after it is all stacked and everything, it isn't that big
   
  How long? Minus 2 years long
   
  The E10 is FiiO's only desktop DAC/Amp an the E9 and E09K is FiiO's desktop amp.
   
  Thank for the complments.


----------



## Flognuts

I use my E7 as a door stop. (srs)
   
  whats the E12 like?


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





flognuts said:


> I use my E7 as a door stop. (srs)
> 
> whats the E12 like?


 
  Seriously?
   
  Well it's an amp. And has no DAC to start.


----------



## Typhoon859

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> Crosstalk is like tires of a car. Some like big tires, some like some ones.
> 
> It isn't something everyone needs to try to minimize or get rid of.
> 
> ...


 
  Oh yeah, the best point to make about anything.  It's subjective; it's subjective!  That analogy made no sense by the way...  In any case, thanks for the link.
   
  Quote: 





tsujigiri said:


> It's for severely stereo recordings that have sounds that come out of only one channel. It can be pretty annoying to listen to recordings like that when the drums are only on one side and the guitars are only on the other etc. Crossfeed mixes the channels a little so it's not flat like mono but it's not annoying. Other than those type of recordings, though, I don't like the way it sounds.


 
  Hmm, yeah, I guess it would make sense for that.  For something like The Beatles though where a lot of their stereo stuff is split into hard left and hard right, I really like that.  It's very enjoyable, especially when in contrast to other stuff.  I've never actually seen a stereo recording playing back only a mono track through one channel.  I simply wouldn't have that crap at all if I came across it even.  It just seems like the space which that takes up could've been put to better use or to no use at all.  On a big sized amp I guess it wouldn't matter but in this case, I guess I'm still having a hard time seeing the point... 
   
  Thanks for the reply!
   
   
  EDIT: Reading over the link, it's cool that it actually tries to simulate time delay between the two ears as well but then that could very easily introduce phasing into the signal and in general, unless it truly fools me into thinking that I'm listening to speakers, it's kinda just a gimmick.  It's cool though and I don't mind the inclusion of it on the amp now if it does this well.


----------



## Evshrug

Quote: 





clieos said:


> Those are voltage step up noise from the power switching circuit. To get the full benefit from the opamp, E12 must runs on very high voltage with a true dual-supply. The original idea was the AAA Li-ion batteries pack that give +/-14V that needed to be charge separately, but it was discarded in flavour of the current +/-11V batteries setup (there was a vote / opinion gathering of some sort if any of you remember) - lower in voltage, but still high enough to do the job, and can be charged by USB. However, to get the 5V USB charging to work on a +/-11V system, you will need a step up circuit and like any circuit of this kind, they tend to be noisy. In exchange however, we are spared from carrying a dedicated charger or the inability to use when charging. I'll say it is a compromise for the better.


 
  Ah, thanks for the clarity on the slight noise from the power switching circuit. Sometimes this is a little noticeable on my e5, too. It's not a big deal and sometimes I listened to my E5 while charging (I haven't charged my E12 yet), but I prefer not listening during charging.
   
  I do remember the battery vote, I voted for a charging scheme similar to the E11 because I have been annoyed by non-replaceable batteries going dead in devices in the past, like my first iPod. I also don't like the charging noise and would rather wait. That said, those are just my preferences, and a lot of people agree with your view that this is a better compromise. Not a big deal either way, though I think I want to use my E12 longer than Gavinfabi 
  ------
   
   
  Boweii,
  I like your unboxing video too  I think I forgot to show the 3.5mm connector cable in mine, and when I posted my video here I didn't know how to make it display in-post from my iPad.
  ------
   
  Typhoon,
  I think the analogy he was trying to make was "some people like big tires, some like _small_ tires." If you live in the country, you might like big tires on a truck to help you get out of mud and snow, if you live in the city small tires are nicer on fuel efficiency.
   
  In any case the feature is there if you want it, but you can switch it off if you don't. I can think of a few songs where I'd really like some crossfeed (mostly pop songs, new and old), but mostly I'll leave it off. No harm done 
  ------
   
  Mani ATH 87,
  My mother's Android cellphone is bigger than the E12. Unless you are hiking all day and every ounce of weight is important to you, the E12 is compact enough to fit with an iPod Classic in my back jeans pockets. If your pocket can hold a wallet and phone simultaneously, you can probably fit an E12 and PMP together in there. The wiring might be a little tricky though (I still think straight plugs are least likely to become unplugged in pocket), and of course any PMP strapped to an amp is going to make a bulge in your pocket.
  It's not perfect, nor as convenient as an E6, but the E12 is definitely portable and transportable.


----------



## UnityIsPower

evshrug said:


> My mother's Android cellphone is bigger than the E12. Unless you are hiking all day and every ounce of weight is important to you, the E12 is compact enough to fit with an iPod Classic in my back jeans pockets. If your pocket can hold a wallet and phone simultaneously, you can probably fit an E12 and PMP together in there. The wiring might be a little tricky though (I still think straight plugs are least likely to become unplugged in pocket), and of course any PMP strapped to an amp is going to make a bulge in your pocket.
> It's not perfect, nor as convenient as an E6, but the E12 is definitely portable and transportable.


 

A printer like the form one would be cool for making custom personalized cases. DIY parts to match up, clip on, and form around having a amp and phone together


----------



## Tsujigiri

Quote: 





typhoon859 said:


> Hmm, yeah, I guess it would make sense for that.  For something like The Beatles though where a lot of their stereo stuff is split into hard left and hard right, I really like that.  It's very enjoyable, especially when in contrast to other stuff.  I've never actually seen a stereo recording playing back only a mono track through one channel.  I simply wouldn't have that crap at all if I came across it even.  It just seems like the space which that takes up could've been put to better use or to no use at all.  On a big sized amp I guess it wouldn't matter but in this case, I guess I'm still having a hard time seeing the point...


 
   
  Actually, that was exactly what I had in mind when I wrote that. I almost can't stand listening to some of the crappy recording the Beatles did in their early years with headphones. Crossfeed is an improvement for songs like Taxman IMO.


----------



## Typhoon859

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Ah, thanks for the clarity on the slight noise from the power switching circuit. Sometimes this is a little noticeable on my e5, too. It's not a big deal and sometimes I listened to my E5 while charging (I haven't charged my E12 yet), but I prefer not listening during charging.
> 
> I do remember the battery vote, I voted for a charging scheme similar to the E11 because I have been annoyed by non-replaceable batteries going dead in devices in the past, like my first iPod. I also don't like the charging noise and would rather wait. That said, those are just my preferences, and a lot of people agree with your view that this is a better compromise. Not a big deal either way, though I think I want to use my E12 longer than Gavinfabi
> ------
> ...


 
  Noise is only added when it's plugged in right?  Does it change the signal in any other way? 
   
  And also, I got the analogy..  It was just a really bad one only implying some abstract level of subjectivity by comparing things completely irrelevant to one another. 
   
  Quote: 





tsujigiri said:


> Actually, that was exactly what I had in mind when I wrote that. I almost can't stand listening to some of the crappy recording the Beatles did in their early years with headphones. Crossfeed is an improvement for songs like Taxman IMO.


 
  I thought you might've meant that. There are different masters of those records so it depends which ones you're listening to. I'm referring to the 24-bit remastered stereo ones. I like how those sound despite their hard left and hard right mix.  With compensation of time it takes for sound to travel between two ears kept in mind, I'd be interested to listen to how some of that stuff sounds like.  This is keeping in mind of course that if that is what an engineer wanted, he/she would've done it to begin with, maybe for a kind of spacing distribution.  If an engineer (or artist) simply didn't even understand these kind of concepts when mixing to begin with, well then that's just how it is and that's how it sounds like.  I don't believe in "correcting" that, same as I don't believe in altering the mix/master in any other way.  This is just as integral to the song as is the composition.  There's so much proof of that.  In the end, it would be like adding harmonies to a song which doesn't have any, even if it feels like it needs them or would benefit from them.  If it's crap without it, then it's crap, and you move on.  It's how everyone else will theoretically hear it too.
   
  I'm not arguing vs. your use of it by the way - just saying...  In your case and where you say you like it to be on, (as I've said, I'm curious in trying it myself) it actually doesn't have much to do with the things I was describing.


----------



## Evshrug

typhoon859 said:


> Noise is only added when it's plugged in right?  Does it change the signal in any other way?




Still haven't charged it, myself 
Though I was listening to it just now. I think I've only had time to listen for about 5 hours now, so I'm still forming an opinion on the sound (and learning to pay closer attention).

This isn't what you were asking, but somewhat related: my iPod died partway through listening this morning. With the L11 plugged in to amp and charging the iPod, I didn't notice any change or noise. I still think it's a bummer that the L11 USB tip is different from the E12's.


----------



## markm1

So, is this basically un upgrade from the 11? If one wanted a portable and a DAC, I assume the 17  is still the way to go? I ask as I think of purchasing a portable amp in the near future, and don't currently have a DAC.


----------



## markm1

So, is this basically un upgrade from the 11? If one wanted a portable and a DAC, I assume the 17  is still the way to go? I ask as I think of purchasing a portable amp in the near future, and don't currently have a DAC.


----------



## Craigster75

Quote: 





markm1 said:


> So, is this basically un upgrade from the 11? If one wanted a portable and a DAC, I assume the 17  is still the way to go? I ask as I think of purchasing a portable amp in the near future, and don't currently have a DAC.


 

 Yes and yes to your double post


----------



## bowei006

FiiO is probably the most popular manufactuer sub $170 but do keep in mind that many alternatives from HRT, Arcam, iBasso, Headroom, JDS and Nuforce do exist.


----------



## Mani ATH 87

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> Mabe. In real life after it is all stacked and everything, it isn't that big
> 
> How long? Minus 2 years long
> 
> ...


 
  Ha, I should have said that a bit more clearly. I know Fiio has those desktop amps/dac's, what I meant was, until it had a flag ship model that wasn't portable, or considered beyond entry level. The quality Fiio is bring to entry level equipment is undeniably awesome. I wonder if we will see them move beyond entry to mid fi level equipment soon.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





typhoon859 said:


> Noise is only added when it's plugged in right?  Does it change the signal in any other way?
> 
> And also, I got the analogy..  It was just a really bad one only implying some abstract level of subjectivity by comparing things completely irrelevant to one another.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Please keep in mind that those albums were mixed over loudspeakers, so no thought whatsoever was given to how they may sound over headphones.
   
  I (unintentionally) alter the mix every time I play music thru my headphones or loudspeakers, I don't EQ, but my equipment does not sound like a recording studio monitor.
  I like the idea of a headphone crossfeed to compensate for the lack of crossfeed _the room itself_ always adds when listening via loudspeakers.
  Another excuse for me to get the E12! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  Just sayin'


----------



## Mani ATH 87

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Mani ATH 87,
> My mother's Android cellphone is bigger than the E12. Unless you are hiking all day and every ounce of weight is important to you, the E12 is compact enough to fit with an iPod Classic in my back jeans pockets. If your pocket can hold a wallet and phone simultaneously, you can probably fit an E12 and PMP together in there. The wiring might be a little tricky though (I still think straight plugs are least likely to become unplugged in pocket), and of course any PMP strapped to an amp is going to make a bulge in your pocket.
> It's not perfect, nor as convenient as an E6, but the E12 is definitely portable and transportable.


 

 This is simply your opinion, for me the E12 is a bit on the large size to consider portable. I usually carry many things in my pockets already when out, so for _me personally_ the size of the E12 is somewhat inconvenient. I am not saying that it should not be considered a portable device, I am just saying that for *me* it's a bit to big.


----------



## imackler

Quote: 





mani ath 87 said:


> This is simply your opinion, for me the E12 is a bit on the large size to consider portable. I usually carry many things in my pockets already when out, so for _me personally_ the size of the E12 is somewhat inconvenient. I am not saying that it should not be considered a portable device, I am just saying that for *me* it's a bit to big.


 
   
  Yeah, its definitely not something you'd strap to a nano and slide in a pocket. For me, I'm happy with anything I can strap to an ipod and keep in the front of my backback. Not many people will be taking the E12 to the gym! I'm surprised that it wasn't slightly shorter so that it didn't extend past the edge of a classic/touch, but I bet its the same size height as one of the larger smartphones. I wonder if the E18 will be the same casing size.


----------



## gavinfabl

mani ath 87 said:


> This is simply your opinion, for me the E12 is a bit on the large size to consider portable. I usually carry many things in my pockets already when out, so for _me personally_ the size of the E12 is somewhat inconvenient. I am not saying that it should not be considered a portable device, I am just saying that for *me* it's a bit to big.




Not trying to change your mind or disagree with you, but when I unboxed the E12 I was expecting something bigger. It's profile is fairly slim, obviously has length. When it gets released in numbers see if you can look at a friends E12 as in real life I didn't find it as big as I was expecting.


----------



## gavinfabl

imackler said:


> Yeah, its definitely not something you'd strap to a nano and slide in a pocket. For me, I'm happy with anything I can strap to an ipod and keep in the front of my backback. Not many people will be taking the E12 to the gym! I'm surprised that it wasn't slightly shorter so that it didn't extend past the edge of a classic/touch, but I bet its the same size height as one of the larger smartphones. I wonder if the E18 will be the same casing size.




I never thought about strapping a Nano to the side and taking it to the gym. Brilliant idea. Thanks


----------



## gavinfabl

bowei006 said:


> FiiO is probably the most popular manufactuer sub $170 but do keep in mind that many alternatives from HRT, Arcam, iBasso, Headroom, JDS and Nuforce do exist.




So have you got any of these as a comparison? 




PS. My photos on page 38 + review


----------



## pelli

Quote: 





gavinfabl said:


> So have you got any of these as a comparison?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   



gavinfabl said:


> Not trying to change your mind or disagree with you, but when I unboxed the E12 I was expecting something bigger. It's profile is fairly slim, obviously has length. When it gets released in numbers see if you can look at a friends E12 as in real life I didn't find it as big as I was expecting.


 
   
   


gavinfabl said:


> I never thought about strapping a Nano to the side and taking it to the gym. Brilliant idea. Thanks


   
   
  You can respond to multiple posts in one post...


----------



## markm1

Quote: 





craigster75 said:


> Yes and yes to your double post


 
  Thx and sorry for my unintended double post


----------



## Craigster75

Does anyone know the dB increase regarding the bass boost on the E12?


----------



## gavinfabl

Thanks. It's been a long day at work. My brain is frazzled.


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





imackler said:


> Yeah, its definitely not something you'd strap to a nano and slide in a pocket. For me, I'm happy with anything I can strap to an ipod and keep in the front of my backback. Not many people will be taking the E12 to the gym! I'm surprised that it wasn't slightly shorter so that it didn't extend past the edge of a classic/touch, but I bet its the same size height as one of the larger smartphones. I wonder if the E18 will be the same casing size.


 
  The moment I pulled the E12 out and inspected it with my iPod. I knew something was amiss. The strapping bands were not in any way shape or form to strap an iPod and the input was not very ergonomic with the L9 for Apple devices. 
  Quote: 





gavinfabl said:


> So have you got any of these as a comparison?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Arcam rPAC
  Objective 2
   
  Are the only ones.
   
  The rPAC's headphone out is disapointing. But the DAC is fine. IT's main selling point is it's small size. IT's incredible build quality, easy controls, and that it only needs USB cable to power it. IT's a bit pricey none the less.
   
  The Objective 2 I do not have with me at the moment, A custom variant one will be comming to me shortly. I have had an O2 previously but sold it.


----------



## Evshrug

mani ath 87 said:


> This is simply your opinion, for me the E12 is a bit on the large size to consider portable. I usually carry many things in my pockets already when out, so for _me personally_ the size of the E12 is somewhat inconvenient. I am not saying that it should not be considered a portable device, I am just saying that for *me* it's a bit to big.




Too big for you? That's cool. But I wasn't "simply" or just stating an opinion, I was trying to make objective, quantifiable points too. 

I pointed out it's size compared to other devices (like an android phone) and the fact that it does go into pockets with the not-too-slim iPod Video (thicker than the "classic" sold now) strapped on. I qualified that by saying it makes quite a bulge (that not everyone will be happy to see), and I'll now add that what I was getting at is some will find it uncomfortable in a pants pocket. Thinking that pants pockets aren't the only way people carry things, that the amp is handy (even more than the iPad that follows me almost everywhere, I concluded with an opinion that the E12 is more portable.

Again, not trying to change your mind, just saying for anybody reading that though it doesn't "disappear" from notice like an E6 or an iPod Nano/shuffle, the Mont Blanc is just as portable as many things people take with them.
------

Craigster75,
It's pretty small, let me see if it states in the manual how many dB... Hmm, didn't see a quantity, but I did notice the manual (may be a pre-production manual error) states that the High Gain setting is a 17dB boost, while the actual amp indicates a 10dB high gain. Let me see if it's on the E12 welcome page... Ok, Feiao will have to be the one to give an exact figure, but I would personally guess around 2 or 3 dB. I wish I was better at telling which frequencies are affected, but it's really like subwoofer frequencies, so guessing again I would say affecting 80 Hz and down. Even with the boost off though, and please bear with me as I get VERY subjective here, I have more fun listening with the Mont Blanc + iPod than just straight out of the iPod.

Moar questions? 

P.S what music do you like?


----------



## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Too big for you? That's cool. But I wasn't "simply" or just stating an opinion, I was trying to make objective, quantifiable points too.
> 
> I pointed out it's size compared to other devices (like an android phone) and the fact that it does go into pockets with the not-too-slim iPod Video (thicker than the "classic" sold now) strapped on. I qualified that by saying it makes quite a bulge (that not everyone will be happy to see), and I'll now add that what I was getting at is some will find it uncomfortable in a pants pocket. Thinking that pants pockets aren't the only way people carry things, that the amp is handy (even more than the iPad that follows me almost everywhere, I concluded with an opinion that the E12 is more portable.
> 
> ...


 
   
  1, Since we already have E11 which is quite portable and small, even E6,  the logical step is a bigger portable amp. otherwise we can't balance the battery life with the performance, more story about portable.  you may feel the Galaxy Note is too big if you have not try it. but it is not too big to carry .
   
     I think finally Apple will make a big screen iPhone even Jobs said 3.5 inch is the best and only reasonable size.
   
     So, we will like to provide different model so our customer can choose the suitable one for himself.
   
  2. We decide to increase the gain to 17dB when we almost start produce the first batch, but I found the gain is not enough when the source's output is too weak, but the case  already done, we will correct this mistake in mass production. very sorry for that.
   
  3, The bass boost move to the sub bass as the requirement from our fans. and the bass gain is about 3dB. I think you can always turn the bass boost at " ON ",


----------



## Vanarian

Have you considered a match between E12 and Audinst AMP-HP? Quite the same pricing and very good feedback from what I remember. Not known a lot thought.


----------



## Evshrug

jamesfiio said:


> 1, Since we already have E11 which is quite portable and small, even E6,  the logical step is a bigger portable amp. otherwise we can't balance the battery life with the performance. More story about portable: you may feel the Galaxy Note is too big if you have not try it. but it is not too big to carry .
> I think finally Apple will make a big screen iPhone even Jobs said 3.5 inch is the best and only reasonable size.
> So, we will like to provide different model so our customer can choose the suitable one for himself.
> 
> ...




*I love the way the bass boost is implemented! I do leave it "ON," and I don't hear any grain or clipping except on really poorly mixed songs. Some basshead-type people might want something more extreme, but I think if the boost was any stronger it would lead to problems.*


----------



## Craigster75

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Too big for you? That's cool. But I wasn't "simply" or just stating an opinion, I was trying to make objective, quantifiable points too.
> 
> I pointed out it's size compared to other devices (like an android phone) and the fact that it does go into pockets with the not-too-slim iPod Video (thicker than the "classic" sold now) strapped on. I qualified that by saying it makes quite a bulge (that not everyone will be happy to see), and I'll now add that what I was getting at is some will find it uncomfortable in a pants pocket. Thinking that pants pockets aren't the only way people carry things, that the amp is handy (even more than the iPad that follows me almost everywhere, I concluded with an opinion that the E12 is more portable.
> 
> ...


 

 Thanks for the response.  I listen to almost everything, but I like to boost bass when listening to music like Pitbull, Rihanna, David Guetta, Eminem, Karmin, Kat Graham, Nicki Minaj and Missy Elliot.
   
  What is the best way to connect the E12 to the Iphone 5 if I upgrade? Lightning to 30-pin adapter, or is there a direct Lightning to E12 connector available?


----------



## gavinfabl

craigster75 said:


> Thanks for the response.  I listen to almost everything, but I like to boost bass when listening to music like Pitbull, Rihanna, David Guetta, Eminem, Karmin, Kat Graham, Nicki Minaj and Missy Elliot.
> 
> What is the best way to connect the E12 to the Iphone 5 if I upgrade? Lightning to 30-pin adapter, or is there a direct Lightning to E12 connector available?




If you have the 5 in a case, then best used the 30 pin lightning connector cable not adapter. 

I don't believe there is an all in one lod yet. If there is that's great.


----------



## Evshrug

craigster75 said:


> Thanks for the response.  I listen to almost everything, but I like to boost bass when listening to music like Pitbull, Rihanna, David Guetta, Eminem, Karmin, Kat Graham, Nicki Minaj and Missy Elliot.
> 
> What is the best way to connect the E12 to the Iphone 5 if I upgrade? Lightning to 30-pin adapter, or is there a direct Lightning to E12 connector available?



I only know three of those artists, lol. I don't know if you have the track, and I don't LIKE the track, but Kanye West's "Gold Digger" is my go-to test for distortion (clipping?) and generally the mid-bass falling apart or holding together. With bass boost "ON," there is a little body and fullness added to the bottom end, but the sound holds together smoothly with ease. I pulled up Eminem's "Lose Yourself," just for you, though I like this song much more than the previous one, and with the boost, the bass drum that kicks in at 0:52 really does kick pretty well, yet it's easy to hear Marson's lyrics without any verbage close to "picking them out." The song "Without Me" already seems to have a good bit of bass on the flat mode, turning "on" bass boost brings that bass forward a bit. This is all with Q701 headphones and Mont Blanc set on 0 dB gain. I used to have V-MODA LP's, but there's plenty of bass in this current setup for me.

I took some more pictures for size comparison. People that use money clips instead of wallets need-not apply, but if you've ever had your phone and wallet in the same pocket – Hey that gives me an idea... Yup, my wallet is just as thick as Mont Blanc – then the amp + PMP ought to feel about the same. Here's the Mont Blanc next to my mom's phone & my iPod to show scale:



Top is Mont Blanc


The Mont Blanc is clearly better constructed. Solid piece of aluminum next to the creaky plastic phone that seems like the pieces are more loosely put together by comparison, while the FiiO only has 2 hairline seams around the volume pot/input/output side and the opposite (bottom?) side with only 2screws visible down there. The majority of the enclosure is one piece of aluminum that looks like a tube, with no seams longwise along the body, so it feels solid like the new iPhone 5 (or a unibody MacBook Pro, I guess).

I don't think there is a lightning LOD yet, but if I can beg my gf to share her white iPhone 5 with me for a minute (or she's sleeping), I'll let you guys know my impressions double-amped connecting the Mont Blanc to the iPhone's headphone jack, compared to the L11 LOD for my iPod video (5th gen). I can probably write my review of the Mont Blanc this week, I'll probably pull impressions I've shared from this thread and add anything i think of like comparing to the iPod headphone out. A "crazy comparison" to my desktop amps & the E5 will come in my journal thread, I call it "crazy" because they're all for different purposes so it will be a fun opinion review rather than a practical, objective review.


----------



## Evshrug

My battery just ran out for the first time, lol. I didn't detect a performance drop leading up to the moment the amp auto-shutdown. I got a few hours of listening in today in addition to a few more since it arrived last Thursday. With the charging cable plugged into the AC wall-wart that came with my iPad 2, I turned the E12 to high gain just to see if I heard anything... And with nothing connected to input, I can hear a fluctuating whine that gets louder as I turn up the volume. On low gain, I only very quietly hear it with the volume knob turned up all the way (seems risky to have the volume turned up that high! I'd become deaf if music was playing!), so at regular listening volumes I don't hear any added noise. While charging, the first two songs were noticably less smooth than off battery power and had some pretty noticeable grain added, but the current song sounds ok. Maybe because the battery has just a bit of juice so the sound isn't running directly off wall power?

I like the dimming charge light. Looks like the amp is "breathing" while charging.
------

Carlos Mota,
You probably won't be able to get your hands on a Mont Blanc for a month or two, they are NOT released yet. Ten head-Fi'ers, ten Facebook fans, and a sprinkling of longtime FiiO reviewers just got pre-production samples, as in JUST got them. This thread is probably the only place to find impressions on the amp's quality, except for Gavinfabi's recent review on page 38 and blog post. Boweii & I did unboxing videos that are posted on YouTube.


----------



## pelli

I got my E12 in the mail yesterday and spent the evening listening to my LCD-2.  At first I wasn't super impressed, the sound seemed a little thin and bland.  After an hour of listening, things really seemed to fill out.  I really like the bass boost implementation, and think it made the low end rich and full without bleeding into the miss.  Subtle, but perfect for my listening preferences.  On a few occasions I noticed the highs sound a little tinny, but not on my usual test tracks so it may have been the recording rather than the amp.  I listened on 0 gain and didn't need to turn the amp to 50% for "too loud for my taste" volume.  With my Westone UM3Xs there was no problem with the noise floor and they really seemed to sing.  Seemed like a nice step up from my E17.  The feel of this amp  (fit & finish) is fantastic as well.  Without qualifiers this seems to be an impressive little amp, but when you take cost into account I am blown away!  Thanks FiiO, I can't wait to get to know the E12 a little bit better.


----------



## Craigster75

Quote: 





carlosmota said:


> Anyone could point me to a review, please?
> 
> Can you buy it from amazon.uk already?


 

 You are welcome to start by reading this thread.


----------



## Craigster75

After looking at pics on the previous page, I would say the E12 is a reasonable size for the battery life and quality and is certainly still small enough to be truly portable.  Looking at other high quality "portable" amps like the Fostex HP-P1 and upcoming Centrance M8, while they have more features and DAC, they are 3X the size and 5X the price.


----------



## gavinfabl

carlosmota said:


> Anyone could point me to a review, please?
> 
> Can you buy it from amazon.uk already?




See page 38 in thread. In my post at bottom is link.


----------



## gavinfabl

I have an iPhone 5 and both the Apple 30 pin lightning adapter and 30 pin lightning cable. The adapter doesn't work with a case on the iPhone 5 as the pin doesn't fully insert into the phone. 

So I use the 30 pin lightning cable, my silver 30 pin lod into the E12. All works fine. But it's a little messy. Just wish there was a lod cable all in one.


----------



## imackler

Quote: 





carlosmota said:


> If it turns out to be as good as say a C421, at $100 is a great deal. The same for the C&C BH. I don't know if you guys have heard about that one already. Mine will arrive tomorrow, but I will test the E12 too as soon as it is available in the uk.


 
   
  If you're using headphones that need more power vs. less demanding iems, the E12 demolishes the C421. IMO.


----------



## gavinfabl

Somewhere I read a question about how this compares to the E11. My personal opinion is that the E11 is obviously smaller, the bass is not as discreet or as dramatic, and. I found the sound to be too dark. It was a good little device. 

The E12 is far more natural and realistic in its sound signature. The bass boost is impressive. It only adds it when the music has it. I'm listening to Titanic , the sound track, Hard to Starboard , and the depth of the sub bass leading to the sinking in the music is punchy , dramatic and wonderful. 

I was very excited when I first got this amp, and I still amp. It needs only a small burn in too. 

And as a reminder on page 38 are the first reviews and over the next few pages.

The other aspect of this amp is the scale of its power. For classical that can go from quiet to loud and louder and louder still the E12 just keeps going and going.


----------



## bowei006

The E11 is comming to me as a lent unit from a friend.
   
  I'll have it in my E12 review. But impressions will be up.
   
  I have a huge amount of testing this week. At the end of this week, I'll be heading for a United Nations assembly lasting all weekend. I'll be able to post more on the E11 and E12 by mid next week. 
   
  I'll be able to compare those with the entire Heir Audio IEM(not C) collection and the Rendition 1 later on this month when I receive them. Look forward to it for those that do


----------



## Evshrug

pelli said:


> I got my E12 in the mail yesterday and spent the evening listening to my LCD-2.  At first I wasn't super impressed, the sound seemed a little thin and bland.  After an hour of listening, things really seemed to fill out.  I really like the bass boost implementation, and think it made the low end rich and full without bleeding into the miss.  Subtle, but perfect for my listening preferences.  On a few occasions I noticed the highs sound a little tinny, but not on my usual test tracks so it may have been the recording rather than the amp.  I listened on 0 gain and didn't need to turn the amp to 50% for "too loud for my taste" volume.  With my Westone UM3Xs there was no problem with the noise floor and they really seemed to sing.  Seemed like a nice step up from my E17.  The feel of this amp  (fit & finish) is fantastic as well.  Without qualifiers this seems to be an impressive little amp, but when you take cost into account I am blown away!  Thanks FiiO, I can't wait to get to know the E12 a little bit better.




You thought the amp filled out after listening a bit, too? That was my impression too, and I think GavinFabio and boweii006 felt the same. This surprises me, because I'd expect to attribute that to the listener adjusting to the sound, but it's not like I wasn't using high powered desktop amps before.

I also don't want to risk my hearing beyond 50% on low gain, this guy is quite powerful!


----------



## bowei006

I thought the same to that. But I didn't know if it was brain EQ in me getting used to it or something else.
   
  Whatever it is, it disappeared in 40 minutes for me.
   
  Edit:
  Thinking back on it, I suspect it is just the brain getting used to the amp and especially a new amp with the headphone.
   
  Why? FiiO has shown/told us that they burn these in for testing and quality check extensively. 
   
  But who knows.


----------



## Apo0th3karY

Perhaps it's a 'warm up' period?


----------



## JamesFiiO

About the Size of Mont Blanc, if someone will like to go through the whole thread, he will find that it spend lots of our time to decide how to make it as slim as we can, and to be honest, 
   
  the design will be more simple to us if we used 2 9V battery like SR71 and some other headphone amplifier, and sell in very cheap price. but it is not our style to make products.  I know
   
  it is very good suggestion to make it even smaller, and we will try to make our best in the Mont Blanc II. 
   
  Anyway, below is some innovative features in Mont Blanc,
   
  1, The most slim and small portable amp with plenty of power output, you can compare it with JDS C421, O2, SR-71 and some other amp, do remember Mont Blanc can output 850mW.
   
      and it is powered by +/- 11V. actually , it should compare with lots of headphone amp which use 2 9V battery.
   
  2, The only amp which can be charged by USB power , any kind of USB power. you will see other amps will need a special charger.
   
  3, The few or maybe the only amp which includes a tiny Relay ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relay ) to reduce the Pop noise when turn on/off the power to protect your expensive headphone
   
      and to improve your experience.
   
  About the burn in , we believe a 20 - 40 hours burn in will help to get the best sound quality because the WIMA capacitor


----------



## bowei006

How many hours does FiiO "burn in" or plug into your systems to test? 
   
  If you guys only do it to test that its output is correct, then yeah, I guess I can see the burn in.
   
  Would you be interested in doing a Q and A session?
   
  Headroom's new CEO did a great new Question and Answer session here on Head-Fi and then on REddit. As the CEO of FiiO and one of headphone audio's most recognized brands today. I think there will be a huge amount of fans that would want to ask questions about your company, your outlook, your philosophy, and new products. 
   
  Would you be interested?


----------



## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> How many hours does FiiO "burn in" or plug into your systems to test?
> 
> If you guys only do it to test that its output is correct, then yeah, I guess I can see the burn in.
> 
> ...


 
   
   
  Yes, why not!


----------



## Evshrug

jamesfiio said:


> About the Size of Mont Blanc, if someone will like to go through the whole thread, he will find that it spend lots of our time to decide how to make it as slim as we can, and to be honest, the design will be more simple to us if we used 2 9V battery like SR71 and some other headphone amplifier, and sell in very cheap price. but it is not our style to make products.  I know it is very good suggestion to make it even smaller, and we will try to make our best in the Mont Blanc II.
> 
> 
> Anyway, below is some innovative features in Mont Blanc,
> ...




Wow, I didn't actually think it could burn-in, but yeah I noticed an improvement after 2-3 hours. If it continues improving I'll just be really surprised!


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> Yes, why not!


 
  Excellent. Is there any place you would be interested in doing it?
   
  Headroom did it in the Sponsors announcement section, but I felt that that didn't get many views as most don't check that part of the forums?
   
  Maybe announce it on Facebook and Head-Fi and what not? 
   
  Reddit /r/headphones
  http://www.reddit.com/r/headphones/
  is also a good place to do this. This thread has over 8K subscribers and Headroom and SkullCandy did a Ask Me Anything(Q and A )session here.
  http://www.reddit.com/r/headphones/comments/172cc2/i_am_jamey_warren_ceo_of_headroom_ask_me_anything/
  http://www.reddit.com/r/headphones/comments/13vvga/we_are_the_rd_division_of_skullcandy_ask_us/
   
  Maybe even bring in your audio engineer and other teams? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Just an idea to see if you would be interested in doing.


----------



## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> Excellent. Is there any place you would be interested in doing it?
> 
> Headroom did it in the Sponsors announcement section, but I felt that that didn't get many views as most don't check that part of the forums?
> 
> ...


 
   
  Not a big problem but I should take some time to learn how to start first


----------



## bowei006

jamesfiio said:


> Not a big problem but I should take some time to learn how to start first


On Reddit? Well you need to make a general account. Then you answer people by clicking "reply" to their post. It follows a tree pattern so that each reply is slightly to the tight more than the first responce.

For head fi q and a if you want to do multiple ones to reach a larger group. You already know how to use head fi 

I asked headrooms ceo a lot of questions. Hope you bear with us 

Thank you


----------



## cheuh

Subscribed. Looking forward to see how this amp compares to the Objective 2 amp.


----------



## Evshrug

Feiao,
I don't mean to bug you, but have you thought more about my PM?


----------



## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Feiao,
> I don't mean to bug you, but have you thought more about my PM?


 
   
  already replied, sorry can't always online and reply in time.


----------



## Evshrug

jamesfiio said:


> already replied, sorry can't always online and reply in time.



Same goes for me.

I just didn't know if you get a lot of spam PMs.


----------



## Vanarian

Seems like my post was eaten away by monster posts, I see you guys putting the JDS C421 on the battle. 

This http://www.head-fi.org/t/568054/review-audinst-amp-hp-portable-headphone-amplifier has been reviewed by Mike at Headfonia as destroying JDS C421, and while having the more simple and bare functions, and being accurate and separating instruments well, it still has more strong and fast bass than more sub 100$ with bass boost (excluding Digizoid ZO2.3, I mean what could beat this one in bass department ?).

It Is able to power an hungry Ultrasone HFI 2400 without distortion if I recall well.

Actually has discount to 99$. 

Nobody want a match between it and E12? I want it.


----------



## gavinfabl

The E12 does need some reviews against other headphone amps. Looking forward to these. 

I read the review of the audinst, and whilst I haven't seen it in real life, nor heard it, it doesn't look as good as the E12 IMO. Also, it's needs by the looks of it a bespoke charger, whereas the E12 is a standard micro USB. Also the E12 has nearly 3 times the power. 

However, I would love to see this compared.


----------



## thegrobe

Quote: 





vanarian said:


> Seems like my post was eaten away by monster posts, I see you guys putting the JDS C421 on the battle.
> 
> This http://www.head-fi.org/t/568054/review-audinst-amp-hp-portable-headphone-amplifier has been reviewed by Mike at Headfonia as destroying JDS C421, and while having the more simple and bare functions, and being accurate and separating instruments well, it still has more strong and fast bass than more sub 100$ with bass boost (excluding Digizoid ZO2.3, I mean what could beat this one in bass department ?).
> 
> ...


 
  Just to clarify...the Headfonia review makes no mention or comparison of the JDS C421, or "destroying" it. The comparison there is the JDS Cmoy.


----------



## Vanarian

gavinfabl said:


> The E12 does need some reviews against other headphone amps. Looking forward to these.
> 
> I read the review of the audinst, and whilst I haven't seen it in real life, nor heard it, it doesn't look as good as the E12 IMO. Also, it's needs by the looks of it a bespoke charger, whereas the E12 is a standard micro USB. Also the E12 has nearly 3 times the power.
> 
> However, I would love to see this compared.




Agreed with you  

I think the Mont Blanc will be more versatile, more functions, more battery/power output (so I guess, bigger headphones driven?), mini-USB as you said and crossfeed switch. Though the AMP-HP is smaller and might not drive headphones as big as the E12, I'd enjoy to hear both (with burn-in done) to see which one provides the better equilibrium in sound quality. In any case, seeing the prices, the winners will be us 

EDIT : 





thegrobe said:


> Just to clarify...the Headfonia review makes no mention or comparison of the JDS C421, or "destroying" it. The comparison there is the JDS Cmoy.




My bad, look through comments or JDS C421 review itself, maybe I'm wrong but I remember Mike writing that he'd go for it over the C421 (if I'm not dreaming, it was because of soundstage and warmth, where C421 was more bright, focused on highs and miss, and weak in low/bass)

EDIT bis : Nevermind, maybe I went overboard with the term "Destroying", but look through comments and C421 review, Mike is more objective than me I think


----------



## Mozu

Definitely looking forward to some comparisons with some of the big boys.
   
  Moving away from IEMs--and madly in love with my HE-400s--I'm finding my beloved UHA-4 isn't quite up to the task at hand. I found the C421 to be "meh" at best, the UHA-6S doesn't put out that much more juice than the -4, I balk at ALO's prices, and so my eye is definitely on the E12 at the moment--partly, I hate to admit, because I'll eventually be able to just buy it with Amazon points outright.  
   
  It'll be quite interesting to see if the E12 can compete with some of the bigger (and considerably pricier) names out there.


----------



## bowei006

For compairsons in my review:
  E12
  E11
  MRB
  Rendition 1
   
  Possible reference:
  Audio-gd or
  Objective series
   
  The E07K andes is out on lending(temporary trade to borrow the E11), but it will be back. It will probably come back after the review is written up, but if people ask for a comparison, I will add it to the review in an edit.
   
  I will test with new units I have received/will recieve or with my own headphones, these many include:
  Heir Audio 4ai
  Heir Audio 3ai
  Heir Audio Tzar 90,
  Heir Audio Tzar350
  Dunu DN19
  RHA MA 350
  Sony MH1C
  Oblanc NC3-2 
  AKG Q701
  Ultrasone HFI 580
   
  This list may change at any time but this should be what you guys should expect to see as tested equipment.


----------



## Greed

Quote: 





mozu said:


> Definitely looking forward to some comparisons with some of the big boys.
> 
> Moving away from IEMs--and madly in love with my HE-400s--I'm finding my beloved UHA-4 isn't quite up to the task at hand. I found the C421 to be "meh" at best, the UHA-6S doesn't put out that much more juice than the -4, I balk at ALO's prices, and so my eye is definitely on the E12 at the moment--partly, I hate to admit, because I'll eventually be able to just buy it with Amazon points outright.
> 
> It'll be quite interesting to see if the E12 can compete with some of the bigger (and considerably pricier) names out there.


 

 +1 Definitely would like to see some comparisons to some pricier amps, as well as some testing with larger/harder to drive headphones like orthos or high impedance headphones.


----------



## Dyaems

250mA of current is not enough to make an ortho headphone sing, IMHO. loud volume due to power yes, but enough current to drive an ortho headphone really well isnt.
   
  just my 2 cents.
   
   
  and the E12 is already using wima caps? i guess i dont need to replace them once i get an E12 for myself, well, until warranty expires =P


----------



## Chris J

dyaems said:


> 250mA of current is not enough to make an ortho headphone sing, IMHO. loud volume due to power yes, but enough current to drive an ortho headphone really well isnt.
> 
> just my 2 cents.




How loud do you listen???


----------



## Apo0th3karY

Wondering if this will drive MadDogs?


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





apo0th3kary said:


> Wondering if this will drive MadDogs?


 
  My friend was driving his Mad Dogs with the E07K. So I believe it will, I will ask him to get an opinion. Remember, just an opinion


----------



## mechgamer123

Quote: 





apo0th3kary said:


> Wondering if this will drive MadDogs?


 
  I'm using the E07k right now to listen to my mad dogs. I haven't done any A/B tests between my O2, but to be perfectly honest it sounds about the same to me. Keep in mind I listen to music at 70-80dB (quiet by most people's standards) and the volume on the E07k is at 24/60 on low gain. The E12 should drive the MDs just fine


----------



## bowei006

And he responds
   
   
  Thanks.
   
   
  Shout out to Mechy for letting me borrow the E11 for comparison review


----------



## mechgamer123

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> And he responds
> 
> 
> Thanks.
> ...


 
  Shout out to Bowei for letting my borrow the E07k in return and as a result, me having my first proper DAC!!!
  Are you going to take some comparison pics?
  Also, how is the noise on the E12 compared to the E11?


----------



## bowei006

I had to prepare for my assembly.

I only listened to E11 for 20 s today. 3 seconds every hour or so to make sure it was playing audio correctly and burning in another review unit

When i get back. Ill have a pic shoot of the Fiio legends. Basically the flagship portables throughout the years

E5, E11, E12 

I may also drop the rendition into the pics 

Ill be leaving home tomorrow for half a week. I wont have E11 with me.

Only E12 , DN19, L9 and iPod.


----------



## Evshrug

mechgamer123 said:


> Shout out to Bowei for letting my borrow the E07k in return and as a result, me having my first proper DAC!!!
> Are you going to take some comparison pics?
> Also, how is the noise on the E12 compared to the E11?




Someone posted on my YouTube video thinking there would be too much background noise with his Shure e215 because the Mont Blonc has so much power :rolleyes: Here was my response:



> Power output isnt directly related to background noise generation.
> When fed a clean line-out signal or unplugged from an input, the E12 with my AD700 headphones (32 ohm, 98dB/mW sensitivity) is silent throughout the volume range @low-gain, & I can just faintly hear background noise @high gain. The only thing about pairing the Shure se215 with an E12 is that your canalphones would get loud very quickly. Listening vol with my AD700, low gain, is @ about﻿ 10 o'clock on the dial, off is @ 7 o'clock.
> 
> IMO canalphones are very efficient and get very little improvement from extra power. That said, it's up to you to decide if the amp built-in to your music player is low quality.
> I think the amp in my 5th gen iPod Video is medium quality, pretty good for a built-in amp. Volume is﻿ set around 50% for listening volume with my AD700 sounds pretty good. Using an LOD to the Mont Blanc at about the same listening volume (10 o'clock on the dial, low gain), I hear more kick, depth & instrument layering.




I also read Mike's review... I think when he reviews the Mont Blanc he will be impressed with the build quality, the fit and finish is clearly more exacting than what I see in the article's pictures. I haven't heard the Audinst amp so I won't say which is "better," but I like that FiiO offers more technical information if you want to dig in to the specs, and I think the E12 generally uses nicer components. Personally, I think the bump is more odd in a pocket than the E12's length. I'm sure the other amp is quite nice, and it "sounded" good from the well-written review, but I don't have any buyer's remorse compared to what I have been enjoying 

Edit: I just realized, if the original poster thought "higher power ==more background noise," then he'll probably get the wrong idea from the "high gain" mode. Gain boosting circuits (FWIR) always introduce some background noise, but that doesn't affirm his earlier assumption. I'll edit that part out of my reply on YouTube, you wouldn't need the extra volume from high gain with the already-sensitive SE215 anyway.


----------



## mechgamer123

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Someone posted on my YouTube video thinking there would be too much background noise with his Shure e215 because the Mont Blonc has so much power
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Ugh... Idiots...
  By that logic, my O2 would be unlistenable due to all its "background noise."


----------



## Evshrug

^ who's calling it logic? Can't say I blame him for an incorrect assumption, there seems to be almost as much hocus-pocus as science around audio gear. The myths arise, I think, because most people don't understand the very technical side of audio and make guesses based on incomplete info. And you'll see incomplete product descriptions adding to the confusion, especially box store and eBay listings where maybe they purposefully show specs to mislead buyers that their product is better... 

For example 300W receivers, someone might think "this 300W receiver that comes with speakers is a great deal, the whole package costs less than a Marantz with 110W!" But what the 300W receiver listing doesn't say is those 300W are shared between 5 or 7 channels/speakers, while the Marantz has 110W discrete amps *for each channel.* And still power isn't the last word in quality.


----------



## mechgamer123

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> ^ who's calling it logic? Can't say I blame him for an incorrect assumption, there seems to be almost as much hocus-pocus as science around audio gear. The myths arise, I think, because most people don't understand the very technical side of audio and make guesses based on incomplete info. And you'll see incomplete product descriptions adding to the confusion, especially box store and eBay listings where maybe they purposefully show specs to mislead buyers that their product is better...
> 
> For example 300W receivers, someone might think "this 300W receiver that comes with speakers is a great deal, the whole package costs less than a Marantz with 110W!" But what the 300W receiver listing doesn't say is those 300W are shared between 5 or 7 channels/speakers, while the Marantz has 110W discrete amps *for each channel.* And still power isn't the last word in quality.


 
  I guess I should have said "by that chain of thought, then..."
  Part of it's true I guess... If you have a noisy source, an amp with a higher gain will make a noisy source sound more noisy.
  Haha, I hate how people always judge everything by power. It is NOT an accurate way of picking components. However, people seem to think the higher power consumption, the better something will sound.


----------



## Evshrug

Aw, but it's not as funny that way!
And yeah, gobs of power "on tap" might make a difference, but the quality and implementation of parts and your whole music system make a difference in all situations.
This was pretty much the first time I saw someone say "more power = bad, bad thing!" though. Indeed, the noise will be heard more if it's part of the signal feed and you amp that signal, but that's not the amps fault if it doesn't add it's own noise.


----------



## Craigster75

New competition for the E12?  Any thoughts?
   
http://www.firestone-audio.eu/shop/products/allproductslisted/fireyeha.php


----------



## bowei006

FiiO has competition everywhere. But they are a large brand for headphone audio with many posts, reviews, feedback, and fan loyalty.

So it is more of an indirect competitor as the E12 will be easier to attain and have more feedback from a name brand.

Both good and bad depending on what side you are looking at.

I have an MRB . Anyone heard of it?  thats the problem with most Chinese amps. 

Im a bit worried about the E12 conducting something though


----------



## pekingduck

For sensitive IEMs, are there any channel imbalances at low gain/low volume?
   
  By the way, for those who can read Chinese, there's a review over at erji.net


----------



## JamesFiiO

dep





craigster75 said:


> New competition for the E12?  Any thoughts?
> 
> http://www.firestone-audio.eu/shop/products/allproductslisted/fireyeha.php




depend on the feature, it should compete with our e02i or e6 because it used a max9722 in the amp section.

anyway it is a good thing if more brand go into this market


----------



## Evshrug

Pekingduck,
The only IEMs I have are Etymotic ER6•i, pretty detailed and sensitive, but not the most sensitive IEMs ever. 1 kHz sensitivity: 108 dB @ 0.1V
Impedance: 16 Ohms

ClieOS will be the authority on IEMs, as always. But I'll post a short bit about the ER6•i with the Mont Blanc in my full review, as I expect people will want to know about both harder to drive headphones and very sensitive headphones. The fact that the AD700 can play comfortably, without being volume dialed down to almost off, gives me hope that the ER•6i will be usable, though probably have to have the volume set pretty low.

What impression does the Chinese review give of the Mont Blanc?
Is it just me or has the headphone amp market exploded with many new products in the past year?


----------



## Craigster75

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Pekingduck,
> The only IEMs I have are Etymotic ER6•i, pretty detailed and sensitive, but not the most sensitive IEMs ever. 1 kHz sensitivity: 108 dB @ 0.1V
> Impedance: 16 Ohms
> 
> ...


 
  It seems like the portable audiophile market in general has exploded over the past year.


----------



## pekingduck

Actually it's more like a shootout between the E12 and C&C XO
   
  Here are some highlights:
  - Soundstage is adequate but not great
  - Bass is tight and fast and does not bleed into the mids
  - Some hiss on high gain (phones are IE80)
  - Signature is on the neutral side
   
  Quote: 





evshrug said:


> What impression does the Chinese review give of the Mont Blanc?


----------



## SNSDluv

Any comparison between the E12 and C&C BH? They are priced around the same.


----------



## Apo0th3karY

Not yet, I plan on it though, but it will be a little while before I get my hands on an E12


----------



## SNSDluv

When will E12 come out? :O
 I am waiting on to pick E12 or BH hehe


----------



## scolaiw

Quote: 





snsdluv said:


> When will E12 come out? :O
> I am waiting on to pick E12 or BH hehe


 
   
  It's been said a few times already but March is the closest estimate given so far.


----------



## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





snsdluv said:


> When will E12 come out? :O
> I am waiting on to pick E12 or BH hehe


 
   
  120pcs Mont Blanc will arrive Micca in U.S next week.


----------



## cheuh

Any comparisons between the O2 vs E12?


----------



## Evshrug

cheuh said:


> Any comparisons between the O2 vs E12?



Not yet, sonically, but I can say the Mont Blanc is slimmer and more easy to slip into a pocket. Mont Blanc also has a crossfeed and bass-boost circuit that a stock O2 does not. FiiO has also provided a lot of specifications for the E12, so you can compare/contrast them regarding parts and output measurements that way. Finally, a pre-assembled O2 costs about $30 more than a Mont Blanc. After you consider all of that, everything else separating the two amps is just down to personal taste and may not reflect the quality. I don't know what the deal with NwAvGuy was, I was away from Head Fi when that stuff went down.


----------



## Craigster75

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> 120pcs Mont Blanc will arrive Micca in U.S next week.


 

 Great news!  If I buy the Apple lightning to 30-pin adapter, then connect from the E12 to 30-pin, have you confirmed it will work with full function and SQ as if it was direct E12 to lightning.  Also, do you have any plans to produce E12 to lightning adapter as I believe Venturecraft offers with the GoDapX?


----------



## bowei006

But will those adapters use the medium quality DAC instead of the good one in the phone


----------



## Craigster75

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> But will those adapters use the medium quality DAC instead of the good one in the phone


 







 I may be misunderstanding your question, but the E12 doesn't have a DAC, so you would be using the phone's DAC.


----------



## bowei006

Yes. But the adapter for lightning to 30 pin has its own DAC inside. I believe that doing it this way will utilize the WM88xx inside and not the believed to be higher qualitychip and internals in the iphone


----------



## Craigster75

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> Yes. But the adapter for lightning to 30 pin has its own DAC inside. I believe that doing it this way will utilize the WM88xx inside and not the believed to be higher qualitychip and internals in the iphone


 

 Thank you for pointing that out, I was not aware.  In that case, it sounds like the ideal solution is a direct E12 to lightning cable.  I don't know if the Venturecraft cable is compatible with the E12.


----------



## sinquito

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> Yes. But the adapter for lightning to 30 pin has its own DAC inside. I believe that doing it this way will utilize the WM88xx inside and not the believed to be higher qualitychip and internals in the iphone


 
  I think that in that case you're using the iPhone 5 DAC and just getting an LOD (analog output) and not a digital output.


----------



## seeler

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> 120pcs Mont Blanc will arrive Micca in U.S next week.


 
  Would Micca sell & ship the amp to UK?


----------



## gavinfabl

Using the Fiio L9 works really well as per photo.


----------



## Chris J

bowei006 said:


> Yes. But the adapter for lightning to 30 pin has its own DAC inside. I believe that doing it this way will utilize the WM88xx inside and not the believed to be higher qualitychip and internals in the iphone




Are you sure that's a DAC in that cable?
That doesn't make any sense!
Could be a charge control chip or an authentication chip?

Why put a DAC in the cable if the iPhone already has a DAC in it?


----------



## gavinfabl

chris j said:


> Are you sure that's a DAC in that cabel?
> That doesn't make any sense!
> Could be a charge control chip or an authentication chip.
> 
> Why put a DAC in the cable if the iPhone already has a DAC in it?




Definitely has a DAC.


----------



## pelli

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Why put a DAC in the cable if the iPhone already has a DAC in it?


 
   
  Because the new lightning cable offers no analog audio out.  It just sends a digital signal, so there needs to be a DAC chip in the cable to run it as an analog out.  That is why the lightning to 30-pin adapters are so damn expensive!


----------



## Craigster75

Quote: 





pelli said:


> Because the new lightning cable offers no analog audio out.  It just sends a digital signal, so there needs to be a DAC chip in the cable to run it as an analog out.  That is why the lightning to 30-pin adapters are so damn expensive!


 

 Thank you for the explanation.  Any reviews on how much of a downgrade this DAC is compared to the built-in unit?  Does this mean the only way to have optimal sound portably with Iphone 5 is if someone comes out with a direct lightning>amp line out cable?  Does anyone know if the GoDapX lightning cable is compatible with the E12?


----------



## pelli

Quote: 





craigster75 said:


> Thank you for the explanation.  Any reviews on how much of a downgrade this DAC is compared to the built-in unit?  Does this mean the only way to have optimal sound portably with Iphone 5 is if someone comes out with a direct lightning>amp line out cable?  Does anyone know if the GoDapX lightning cable is compatible with the E12?


 
  It will not be compatible as the E12 is only an amp so it needs an analog signal.  The GoDapX is a lightning to USB cable.  That will provide a digital signal for external DACs like the HP-P1, CLAS, etc. that have the special apple decoding ships (think $400-$600 range).  There are no FiiO products at the moment that will work with an iPhone 5 without double amping or using the lightning to 30-pin adaptor with a 30-pin LOD cable attached.


----------



## Evshrug

craigster75 said:


> Thank you for the explanation.  Any reviews on how much of a downgrade this DAC is compared to the built-in unit?  Does this mean the only way to have optimal sound portably with Iphone 5 is if someone comes out with a direct lightning>amp line out cable?  Does anyone know if the GoDapX lightning cable is compatible with the E12?




That's not what it means... Line-out is an unbuffered (unamped) analogue signal, an amp after that controls the volume. You could plug headphones directly into the line-out feed from a DAC, but you can't control volume and most modern sensitivity headphones & song production values would produce a VERY loud volume (tried once w/ iPod classic, hurt).
Meanwhile I wonder if the lightning connection makes connecting an external DAC easier now? I hadn't heard you needed a special Apple authentication, the downside is if that "authentication" costs 3rd parties much then it will be harder to get those cheap-but-cheerful iPod boom boxes like iHome. I was intending to get an iPhone 4S anyway, but perhaps this is all the more reason.
Makes me wonder if the "lightning" connection is like a "Steve Jobs cutting out floppy drives and only using USB on the iMac" type of deal, or more like when greedy shareholders almost putting Apple out of business after firing Jobs. Unfortunately, I don't think this indicates "industry-forward thinking" unless the Apple Decoding ID chips aren't real for the Lightning cable models like they are real for the previous models that could at least provide line-output.


----------



## pelli

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Meanwhile I wonder if the lightning connection makes connecting an external DAC easier now? I hadn't heard you needed a special Apple authentication,


 
  I believe you still need an Apple authentication chip to use the digital feed, so Pure i20, Wadia 170/171i, Hp-p1, CLAS, Sony or the GoDAP, etc. are the only options to extract a digital feed from portable apple products.  
   
   


evshrug said:


> I the downside is if that "authentication" costs 3rd parties much then it will be harder to get those cheap-but-cheerful iPod boom boxes like iHome. I was intending to get an iPhone 4S anyway, but perhaps this is all the more reason.


 

  You can still use the iPhone 5 with ALL aplle compatible docks, you just need a lightning to 30-pin adapter (which has a DAC chip in the adapter).
   
   



evshrug said:


> That's not what it means... Line-out is an unbuffered (unamped) analogue signal, an amp after that controls the volume. You could plug headphones directly into the line-out feed from a DAC, but you can't control volume and most modern sensitivity headphones & song production values would produce a VERY loud volume (tried once w/ iPod classic, hurt).


 
   
  What does this info about line-out have to do with the OPs question?
   
  Here are the 4 options to use iPhone 5 with a portable amp:
   
  1) iPhone 5 headphone jack > 3.5mm to 3.5mm cable > Amp line in
   
  2) iPhone 5 lightning jack > lightning to 30-pin adaptor > 30-pin LOD > AMP line in
  (If someone comes out with a "lightning to Line-out" cable it will follow this format which has a DAC chip in the adapter)
   
  3) iPhone lightning > lightning to USB cable > Apple authenticated DAC with built in amp (Ex. Hp-p1)
   
  4) iPhone lightning > lightning to USB cable > Apple authenticated DAC USB input (Ex. CLAS or Hp-p1) > Apple decoding device line out > 3.5mm to 3.5mm cable > Amp line in
   
  The sound in #3 and #4 will be the best, bit much more expensive
   
  There is some debate if #1 or #2 sounds better.  It is a trade off. In #1 you are double amping which can degrade the signal.  In #2 you are using the tiny Wolfson DAC chip in the adapter which some say is inferior to the internal DAC in the phone.  I have not compared the two as I don't use my phone for music unless I am at home connecting it to my Pure 1-20 or Wadia 170i.  Those both follow the chain of #4 but are not portable.


----------



## SNSDluv

Hi,

 Can you give the options for Android phones in the same fashion?


----------



## Evshrug

Pelli,
Thanks for breaking it down. When I posted, I think I misunderstood Craigster, and now after refueling my brain with good food I can't see how I misunderstood 

As far as using the lightning-to-30-Pin-adapter, that might technically work, but not as neatly and securely as plugging an iPod into a docking station. I need to read more reviews on the adapter, but I believe someone in this thread used one which introduced some background noise, to which IIRC Feiao responded with something like "I was afraid of that " That could be due to a bad sample of the adapter though.

I've often read Wolfson=Quality DAC, but I believe Wolfson is just a brand-name and I have no idea about the specs or model name of what Wolfson DAC that could be. Might be good as the one built into my iPod Video, but it might be worse. I imagine some future FiiO product (maybe the E19, Everest?) will plug directly into the Lightning port, but for now it can be expensive.

What was the Sony option of extracting the digital feed from an iDevice? Also, with the models that support it, doesn't Apple's HDMI output send a digital feed to the next device?


----------



## pelli

Quote: 





snsdluv said:


> Hi,
> 
> Can you give the options for Android phones in the same fashion?


 
  Options #1 will work for an android phone.  I am not as familiar about android phones / DACs.  You will probably find more information here:
   
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/595071/android-phones-and-usb-dacs
   
   
  Quote: 





evshrug said:


> What was the Sony option of extracting the digital feed from an iDevice? Also, with the models that support it, doesn't Apple's HDMI output send a digital feed to the next device?


 
  The device is the Sony PHA-1.  I am not sure what you mean about the apple HDMI output...


----------



## Evshrug

pelli said:


> The device is the Sony PHA-1.  I am not sure what you mean about the apple HDMI output...




I'm talking about... Thiiis guy:

Apple's official HDMI adapter. We bought it to connect our iPad 2s to the TV and watching videos on the larger screen. I don't think HDMI sends analogue audio, so... 

Well, the DAC inside my receiver is supposed to be pretty good, and I HAVE been meaning to A/B the sound between my receiver and E12. I'll try iPod-->L11--->E12-->Q701 (this is the only way I've been listening since I got my Mont Blanc a bit over a week ago), then iPod-->L11-->receiver-->Q701, then try testing the Yamaha's DAC via iPad2-->HDMI adapter-->receiver-->Q701, lastly iPad2-->HDMI-->receiver-->RCA to 3.5mm-->E12-->Q701. The iPod right now has a few lossless tracks on it, but it doesn't work with the HDMI adapter (says it can't connect to FireWire devices when you plug in the adapter, interestingly).

I don't think I'd ever use that last, most complicated setup regularly just for the receiver's DAC, but I will test it out of curiosity. Something I was planning anyway. I may not finish getting the test setup today as I want to put a few lossless tracks on my iPad 2 for the test, but when I do the test I'll post it in my journal thread: http://www.head-fi.org/t/646786/evshrugs-if-i-knew-then-what-i-know-now-discussion-journal


----------



## pelli

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> I'm talking about... Thiiis guy:
> 
> Apple's official HDMI adapter. We bought it to connect our iPad 2s to the TV and watching videos on the larger screen. I don't think HDMI sends analogue audio, so...
> 
> ...


 
   
   
  Again, not sure the relevance of this to the discussion at hand, but sure that is a digital signal.  It will only work with an I pad as far as I know, but I think there is also a USB connector that will take a digital feed out of an iPad as well.  That should connect to way more DACs than a HDMI cable.  My big question is why?  Looking at your chain, I don't think the DAC in your receiver is going to be any better than the internal DAC in your iPad, or any other iDevice for that matter.  You will not see much of an upgrade unless you go to a dedicated DAC, or an Amp/DAC combo that is more specific for headphones.  When you break down all the parts and features of a receiver like that, only a small percentage of cost will go to the DAC.  In terms of a low end receiver, this looks like a couple of dollars in parts.  My guess is running a FiiO E7 or E17 from your MBP will sound much netter than any of the options you are suggesting, let alone going with something like the Schiit Modi, or ODAC.  Otherwise, just stick with iPad to E12 via line out.  Apple puts OK DACs in there devices.  I would
   
  In the end It is important to keep in mind the Mont Blanc is a portable Amp. This is where it is really going to excel.  As a portable option it is seeming to show good results driving "hard to drive" headphones.  This is why it was designed with all that juice.  When compared  to desktop options with similar specs, I think it is going to struggle a bit.  There have to be some trade-offs when trying to pack all that stuff into a small box at a reasonable price.  This is in no way a slight to the E12.  So far I am very impressed with what it can do.  Lets just not get carried away...


----------



## Craigster75

Quote: 





pelli said:


> Again, *not sure the relevance of this to the discussion at hand*, but sure that is a digital signal.  It will only work with an I pad as far as I know, but I think there is also a USB connector that will take a digital feed out of an iPad as well.  That should connect to way more DACs than a HDMI cable.  My big question is why?  Looking at your chain, I don't think the DAC in your receiver is going to be any better than the internal DAC in your iPad, or any other iDevice for that matter.  You will not see much of an upgrade unless you go to a dedicated DAC, or an Amp/DAC combo that is more specific for headphones.  When you break down all the parts and features of a receiver like that, only a small percentage of cost will go to the DAC.  In terms of a low end receiver, this looks like a couple of dollars in parts.  My guess is running a FiiO E7 or E17 from your MBP will sound much netter than any of the options you are suggesting, let alone going with something like the Schiit Modi, or ODAC.  Otherwise, just stick with iPad to E12 via line out.  Apple puts OK DACs in there devices.  I would
> 
> In the end It is important to keep in mind the Mont Blanc is a portable Amp. This is where it is really going to excel.  As a portable option it is seeming to show good results driving "hard to drive" headphones.  This is why it was designed with all that juice.  When compared  to desktop options with similar specs, I think it is going to struggle a bit.  There have to be some trade-offs when trying to pack all that stuff into a small box at a reasonable price.  This is in no way a slight to the E12.  So far I am very impressed with what it can do.  Lets just not get carried away...


 

 @pelli and @Evshrug- I am actually learning a great deal regarding amp connections that I did not know.  As I will be listening portably and want the best possible sound out of the E12, or any amp AND may upgrade to a 64 gig Iphone 5 at some point, I think discussion of connection is relevant and much appreciated.


----------



## Evshrug

Pelli,
I don't think I'm getting carried away. I haven't expressed my opinion here, but I also believe the DACs in my MSRP $400 iDevices are quite good and probably better than what's in a typical receiver. But maybe, I'll find that the iDevice DACs are budget-constrained in a similar way as the receiver's... aren't we already thinking that's the case with the iDevice's amp? And what if the differences from a DAC can only be heard at home, in a quiet environment, with high-resolution files anyway? I'm not (just) doing it for me, I want to write about it just in case other people are curious as well. I bet some people are.

I think finding similarities and differences between the new amp and a commonly-available reference (many people have receivers before dedicated, portable, powerful headphone amps) is more on-topic than finding iDevice with lightning adapters, but they're all connected because I'm going to explore line-out and external DAC options while I'm at it. I also think the E12's power makes more sense as an "all headphone" amp that can go portable, not just as a portable amp for portable headphones. I'm always thinking about how to connect things to current projects 


Craigster75,
Well, you know I'm doing it all for my adoring fans. Wait... I don't have any subscribers or payment for this kind of thing. Oh well, adoring or not I'm just exploring stuff and hoping others find it helpful or interesting. You may be interested to know, despite double-amping and double-coloration, I did detect an improvement with the E12 connected to my iPod's headphone jack. Now that I think about it, I'll write my stand-alone E12 sound and usage review first before the "crazy comparison" stuff. FYI, the iPhone 4 and 4s support the HDMI adapter (the video capability differs), so that could be useful once you reach a destination if you want to hook up to a projector or presentation devices. 

TL;DR version:
Right now though, just for personal, portable headphone use, it's easier and better supported just to use a 30-pin iDevice. That's just my personal analysis. Worrying about an external DAC on the subway isn't likely to produce greater satisfaction, either.

Oh, I also meant to say, you probably don't need to double-amp from the ZO, I think the only time one would bother is if the rather aggressive ZOv2 bass-boost was producing clipping at listening volume, so you would turn DOWN the volume on the ZO, and then output to an amp that has power headroom at the listening volume you want with your headphone. A 3-piece (or more) setup, even if you're carrying it in a backpack, is pretty goofy though IMO.


----------



## Evshrug

As an aside, in case the point wasn't made clearly enough, the E12's bass-boost is subtle and probably won't offend audiophiles, but it's not the sort of thing that'll make bassheads happier. The E12's neutrality wouldn't take away from a basshead headphone though, unless you like the bass looser.


----------



## frenchjay

What is the actual dB bass boost on the E12 and what does the E11 offer in comparison on the highest bass setting? I'm looking to upgrade to the E12 from an E11 but I'm worried the single bass setting won't satisfy my bass craving. If the E11 falls short, what other portables are there that have a strong amount of bass and/or bass settings and is affordable? Thanks!


----------



## Dyaems

Quote: 





frenchjay said:


> What is the actual dB bass boost on the E12 and what does the E11 offer in comparison on the highest bass setting? I'm looking to upgrade to the E12 from an E11 but I'm worried the single bass setting won't satisfy my bass craving. If the E11 falls short, what other portables are there that have a strong amount of bass and/or bass settings and is affordable? Thanks!


 

 just get a ZO or an XO2 instead of an E12


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





frenchjay said:


> What is the actual dB bass boost on the E12 and what does the E11 offer in comparison on the highest bass setting? I'm looking to upgrade to the E12 from an E11 but I'm worried the single bass setting won't satisfy my bass craving. If the E11 falls short, what other portables are there that have a strong amount of bass and/or bass settings and is affordable? Thanks!


 
  I do prefer bass many times but also likes a very balanced headphone.
   
  The E12 is a much much more refined bass. If you must even ask about the bass boost. It is most likely not enough on the e12 in terms of quantity.


----------



## frenchjay

bowei006 said:


> I do prefer bass many times but also likes a very balanced headphone.
> 
> The E12 is a much much more refined bass. If you must even ask about the bass boost. It is most likely not enough on the e12 in terms of quantity.







dyaems said:


> just get a ZO or an XO2 instead of an E12




Thanks for the responses. The X02 is out of my price range and also what about the Practical devices XM4? It says it offers a bass boost of 6dB. Is that more than the E11 on the highest setting? I'm sorry, I have no clue about the technical aspects of amplifiers.


----------



## Craigster75

Quote: 





dyaems said:


> just get a ZO or an XO2 instead of an E12


 
   
  Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> I do prefer bass many times but also likes a very balanced headphone.
> 
> The E12 is a much much more refined bass. If you must even ask about the bass boost. It is most likely not enough on the e12 in terms of quantity.


 

 Go for the best of both worlds and double-amp!


----------



## bowei006

I'll be pushing out an E12 review in 2 weeks. Hopefully 1 week. 
   
  I'll be using it with a new batch of Heir Audio IEM's I just received but I will of course be using headphones I know better for the actual girth of the review. 
   
   

   
  Very excited for the comming weeks.


----------



## Evshrug

frenchjay said:


> What is the actual dB bass boost on the E12 and what does the E11 offer in comparison on the highest bass setting? I'm looking to upgrade to the E12 from an E11 but I'm worried the single bass setting won't satisfy my bass craving. If the E11 falls short, what other portables are there that have a strong amount of bass and/or bass settings and is affordable? Thanks!



Feiao just said it one or two pages back, it's between 2 and 3 dB, all sub bass. The problem with aggressive bass boosting is you add grain and/or bloat. I just explained to Craigster in my last post, the E12 isn't a "basshead amp," if such a thing exists (which the ZO could be), but if you want more bass you're best served by getting a more bassy headphone. I recommend a V-MODA or Ultrasone headphone (The Sony XB500 amazed me, but mostly because how unmusical an extremely dark and imbalanced headphone can be). The E12 doesn't reduce the bass quality IMO, but sharpens/tightens it (less so than my tube amp).


----------



## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> As an aside, in case the point wasn't made clearly enough, the E12's bass-boost is subtle and probably won't offend audiophiles, but it's not the sort of thing that'll make bassheads happier. The E12's neutrality wouldn't take away from a basshead headphone though, unless you like the bass looser.


 
   
  Yes, we think audiophile who will like to pay more money in audio gear,  even may not need the bass boost . but it seems that it will be a good idea if we can increase the amount of dB boost in the upgraded model of E11 after 1 or 2 years.
   
   
  To be honest that lots of people in China think anything with bass boost is not belong to high quality audio products , lol.


----------



## Evshrug

jamesfiio said:


> To be honest that lots of people in China think anything with bass boost is not belong to high quality audio products , lol.



I'm not going to give an opinion, but I understand how those people in China are thinking, and I am not a basshead.


----------



## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Feiao just said it one or two pages back, it's between 2 and 3 dB, all sub bass. The problem with aggressive bass boosting is you add grain and/or bloat. I just explained to Craigster in my last post, the E12 isn't a "basshead amp," if such a thing exists (which the ZO could be), but if you want more bass you're best served by getting a more bassy headphone. I recommend a V-MODA or Ultrasone headphone (The Sony XB500 amazed me, but mostly because how unmusical an extremely dark and imbalanced headphone can be). The E12 doesn't reduce the bass quality IMO, but sharpens/tightens it (less so than my tube amp).


 
   
  Just personal opinion, in a audio system { source like iPod , amp like Mont Blanc , headphone and cable }, the best way to find the best taste for yourself is , use transparent  audio source and amp, and choose the best headphone which met your requirement. 
   
  because the difference between headphone is far more bigger than the difference between sources or amps.


----------



## Evshrug

^agreed, that's basically what I said where you quoted me.


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> Just personal opinion, in a audio system { source like iPod , amp like Mont Blanc , headphone and cable }, the best way to find the best taste for yourself is , use transparent  audio source and amp, and choose the best headphone which met your requirement.
> 
> because the difference between headphone is far more bigger than the difference between sources or amps.


 
  Agreed. 
   
  For most headphones or IEM's. I just use a custom O2(when I had it, will be getting a super custom project O2 soon) and Audio gd for most.
   
  Some buy $70 headphones and then are looking at the FiiO E17. Which I personally find should not be done at that price point. A good amp and DAC is important(especially a DAC for most beginners) but there is no need to get all the suppliments when the headphones can be improved so much more.


----------



## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> I'm not going to give an opinion, but I understand how those people in China are thinking, and I am not a basshead.


 
   
  In China, the thing is more  like a  group of grazing sheep, they have not Independent thinking. that maybe the only reason that there are so many insane thing only happened in China. for example, the Sony D50 is a very very popular DAP in China, but I notice is not so common in Western countries.


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> In China, the thing is more  like a  group of grazing sheep, they have not Independent thinking. that maybe the only reason that there are so many insane thing only happened in China. for example, the Sony D50 is a very very popular DAP in China, but I notice is not so common in Western countries.


 
  Chinese people like fads (hype). To be cool, to be in, to look wealthy. Always asking about brand and what happened and connections. It is predominantly built into our culture. Even the ones in America still have this. It is something Asians more or less do. It isn't bad, it isn't good. It is just a type of state that a group of demographically similar people with similar psychographs think.


----------



## frenchjay

evshrug said:


> Feiao just said it one or two pages back, it's between 2 and 3 dB, all sub bass. The problem with aggressive bass boosting is you add grain and/or bloat. I just explained to Craigster in my last post, the E12 isn't a "basshead amp," if such a thing exists (which the ZO could be), but if you want more bass you're best served by getting a more bassy headphone. I recommend a V-MODA or Ultrasone headphone (The Sony XB500 amazed me, but mostly because how unmusical an extremely dark and imbalanced headphone can be). The E12 doesn't reduce the bass quality IMO, but sharpens/tightens it (less so than my tube amp).




I have the M-Audio Q40 and I bought them on recommendation from here.  The problem is I'm not very knowledgeable about amps or headphones and the E11 is the only one I've owned. The bass boost is great with the headphones and I wouldn't be happy if I bought something and the bass was shy of what the E11 puts out. The E12 looks amazing but as its been pointed out I think I would be disappointed with the amount of bass unfortunately. I've found I like a quite dark bassy sound and I don't like harsh treble. It's difficult for me to choose another product and I'd want something similar to the E11 with the same bass response and just improve the tightness/quality and have better battery life. I love the E11 but I know there is better amps but I just don't know the names of them.


----------



## bowei006

Zo2??? That has been recommended a lot. If anyone wants to do a mutual temp trade to try diff things. Let me know, i kinda wish to test zo2


----------



## Craigster75

Quote: 





frenchjay said:


> I have the M-Audio Q40 and I bought them on recommendation from here.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I have owned the Q40 and own the E11 and Z02.  For quality bass with a visceral punch, you can't do much better than Q40 paired with the E11.


----------



## leogodoy

bowei006 said:


> Chinese people like fads (hype). To be cool, to be in, to look wealthy. Always asking about brand and what happened and connections. It is predominantly built into our culture. Even the ones in America still have this. It is something Asians more or less do. It isn't bad, it isn't good. It is just a type of state that a group of demographically similar people with similar psychographs think.




Don't kid yourself: thats pretty much universal. To me it looked as if you were describing my fellow brazilians.


----------



## bowei006

leogodoy said:


> Don't kid yourself: thats pretty much universal. To me it looked as if you were describing my fellow brazilians.


It is pretty universal in that sense but still highly prevelant , or more so in Asian and S American culture


----------



## msinfo

N/M


----------



## Evshrug

jamesfiio said:


> In China, the thing is more  like a group of grazing sheep, they have not independent thinking. that maybe the only reason that there are so many insane thing only happened in China. for example, the Sony D50 is a very very popular DAP in China, but I notice is not so common in Western countries.



In America, we call this "keeping up with the Joneses," as in if the family Jones next door gets an iPhone and a 60" LED HDTV, soon all my neighbors will get an iPhone and a 60" HDTV or bigger. I think following the popular opinion is very evident on Head-Fi, as well.
In America, we do tend to celebrate rebels though, so we have both kinds of attitude  It's funny though, because maybe a rebel will get an Android phone, and then everyone wants to be like the rebel 


*Msinfo,*
[edit: too soon?]


*Frenchjay,*
Listening to the E12, I would say bass "quantity" and bass punch are very different. E12+Q701 = quite punchy and exciting bass (and mids/highs) in contrast to straight out from an iPod, but it does not change the balance of sound to the bass being forward from the rest of the range. I was playing Xbox with a Recon3D (virtual surround processor) + the E12 this morning, and Halo 4 had tons of visceral impact.


----------



## Bill-P

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> *Msinfo,*
> [edit: too soon?]


 
   
  Actually, I don't think so.
   
  http://www.miccastore.com/fiio-e12-mont-blanc-portable-headphone-amplifier-p-101.html
   
  So, I guess... grab it while ya can?
   
  I placed an order, in any case. Will compare it against the C&C BH. (which I'm loving a lot, so the E12 already has some fierce competition IMO)


----------



## Evshrug

^I followed msinfo's link, but then they took it down, I assume they did that for a reason. I already have one anyway 

Someone asked me to compare that C&C amp on my unboxing video. I replied that I didn't know, but when I looked the amp up online (poor English description by the way, apparently the amp gives you "high fever potential") and tried to analyze from the limited specifications available. It's easy to see the C&C is a much less powerful amp, and the higher THD rating makes me suspect the E12 has a higher quality OPAMP. Based on reviews, I'd guess it would be in-between the E11 and E12 for quality (which makes sense for the price), but that's just subjective opinion and some may prefer the E11. Objectively, evidence suggests the E12 will have more power and less distortion than either C&C or the E11.


----------



## bowei006

The link works for me.


----------



## Evshrug

I mean msinfo deleted her/his post and the thread about the release.


----------



## Bill-P

Really? It still loads the page for me.
   
   

   
  Already out of stock, maybe? I probably grabbed the last unit then.
   
  Edit: okay, I see what you mean. Yeah, they took the thread down for some reason.
   
  Edit 2: I think I may have found out the reason. I placed the order, paid, and got a confirmation from PayPal, but I haven't received a confirmation from Micca, plus their website says I haven't placed any order. System not recognizing the E12 yet, maybe.


----------



## Evshrug

Yeah... I'm thinking the post was deleted because it was too soon. I edited my post to give them a chance to "undo," but the problem with the Internet is somebody always remembers :ninja:

On another note, I'm sure msinfo stands for "Micca Store Info," but it reads like Ms. info... Self-fulfilling prophecy? Just a temporary setback anyway, for sure.


----------



## bowei006

Yeah, a big problem is that most people don't realize they would stay here so long so we just made random user names.
   
  A few friends and I kinda regret the half second choice user names now. Asking a mod and getting alt text isn't really what I want either.


----------



## Evshrug

bowei006 said:


> Yeah, a big problem is that most people don't realize they would stay here so long so we just made random user names.
> 
> A few friends and I kinda regret the half second choice user names now. Asking a mod and getting alt text isn't really what I want either.




The Internet always remembers.
Who is this "we" you're referring to?


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> The Internet always remembers.
> Who is this "we" you're referring to?


 
  Mechgamer
   
  Needless to say, he doesn't like mechs and hates his user.


----------



## Bill-P

Actually, I just got a confirmation just now. About 30 minutes after ordering.
   
  Maybe it was working after all. Probably just their website getting hammered to death. It happened before during the E17 days.


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





bill-p said:


> Actually, I just got a confirmation just now. About 30 minutes after ordering.
> 
> Maybe it was working after all. Probably just their website getting hammered to death. It happened before during the E17 days.


 
  I remember those days. E17 sold out twice when it was available. Full availability took 3-4 months I believe from the day it was first buyable.


----------



## Bill-P

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> I remember those days. E17 sold out twice when it was available. Full availability took 3-4 months I believe from the day it was first buyable.


 
   
  Yeah...
   
  Even though I ended up not getting a E17 in the end (D3 and E7 still work fine for what I use them for), I'd love to try E12 now (comparing against C&C BH), so I'm not taking any chances with availability.


----------



## Oregonian

frenchjay said:


> What is the actual dB bass boost on the E12 and what does the E11 offer in comparison on the highest bass setting? I'm looking to upgrade to the E12 from an E11 but I'm worried the single bass setting won't satisfy my bass craving. If the E11 falls short, what other portables are there that have a strong amount of bass and/or bass settings and is affordable? Thanks!




Keep your E-11 and ADD a ZO..........SOMEONE JUST TRY THIS DOUBLE AMP SETUP. you won't be disappointed..


----------



## Oregonian

craigster75 said:


> Go for the best of both worlds and double-amp!




My hero! Someone who gets it! E-11/ZO and never look back!


----------



## Apo0th3karY

Just gonna throw it out there; I remember people saying the 'ergonomics aren't right with the 90 degree FiiO LOD on the E12' or something along those lines. 
   
I think this is a good solution, no?
   
  Other than the fact it's a silver plated cable LOD, only the 3.5mm end is 90 degrees, so it's a bit more freedom.


----------



## Evshrug

Yeah, that would work fine. Though I think two straight plugs work too, and that LOD is significantly more expensive (because it's silver?) than the FiiO L3. But that option's not bad if you like silver cables.


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





apo0th3kary said:


> Just gonna throw it out there; I remember people saying the 'ergonomics aren't right with the 90 degree FiiO LOD on the E12' or something along those lines.
> 
> I think this is a good solution, no?
> 
> Other than the fact it's a silver plated cable LOD, only the 3.5mm end is 90 degrees, so it's a bit more freedom.


 
  The L3 is that basicaly. 
   
  The only problem is that its not ergonomic. The straight cable makes it so that it protrudes in that design..
   
  Best ergonomic would be the L11 with a very very short half inch to 3/4 inch 3.5mm inter connect cable.


----------



## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> The L3 is that basicaly.
> 
> The only problem is that its not ergonomic. The straight cable makes it so that it protrudes in that design..
> 
> Best ergonomic would be the L11 with a very very short half inch to 3/4 inch 3.5mm inter connect cable.


 
   
  it is more difficult to produce a very short cable because it take time to solder the wire. but we will consider to make a 4 to 5 cm line out cable in the future.
   
  but I am worry about that it is useless because iPod/iPhone change to lightning dock


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> it is more difficult to produce a very short cable because it take time to solder the wire. but we will consider to make a 4 to 5 cm line out cable in the future.
> 
> but I am worry about that it is useless because iPod/iPhone change to lightning dock


 
  That is also a problem. The new lightning dock.
   
  I know there are those short interconnect cables. But they are all very expensive using pro cables.
   
  L11 with the regular 3.5mm you guys include works ok, but I would rather use L9 as bending the longer cable just doesn't work well
   
   
   

   
  L9 trying to be Ergonomic. Doesn't work as it blocks 3.5mm. It may
  work for some but not all hp.
   

   
   

   
  L11 in state one with downard position. Silly string everywhere.
   

   
  L11 with upward swing. Blocks 3.5mm
   

   
  L9 with current usage. Extends out, but doesn't block.


----------



## Apo0th3karY

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> L11 with the regular 3.5mm you guys include works ok, but I would rather use L9 as bending the longer cable just doesn't work well
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  I think this configuration would work with the V-Moda 45degree cable. I'm in.


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





apo0th3kary said:


> I think this configuration would work with the V-Moda 45degree cable. I'm in.


 
  It works. But not too well as the hp wire that is 90 degres will thus go under the L9 and some may not fit.
   
   

   

   

   
  Keep in mind that to do this. You would need to face the E12 on the "wrong" side. There is no actual side. But the FiiO logo in the config seen here will face the inside on the iPod.


----------



## candurin

Just snagged my e12 and L9 from MiccaStore.  Said in stock and will be delivered in 2-5 days.
   
  Can't wait.


----------



## Craigster75

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> it is more difficult to produce a very short cable because it take time to solder the wire. but we will consider to make a 4 to 5 cm line out cable in the future.
> 
> but I am worry about that it is useless because iPod/iPhone change to lightning dock


 

 As a suggestion, if you can recommend a third party lightning to E12 cable, I would feel more comfortable with the E12 as a "futureproofed" product in case I upgrade to Iphone 5.


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





craigster75 said:


> As a suggestion, if you can recommend a third party *lightning to E12 cable*, I would feel more comfortable with the E12 as a "futureproofed" product in case I upgrade to Iphone 5.


 
   
  I might be late to the discussion as I didn't read most of the previous posts - but there is no such a thing as a Lightning-to-E12 cable. That will be like the same as saying SPIDF-to-E12, Toslink-to-E12, or USB-to-E12 cable. What is the point of feeding a full digital signal to a full analog amp that can NOT decode those signal?
   
  The only solution to the Lightning connector is to have:
   
  (1) a DAC built right inside the cable itself to decode the digital signal back to analog. Apple already has it - it is called the Lightning-to-30-pins adapter. It is not cheap and doesn't offer better SQ than the headphone-out (measured and tested myself). You will be just as good as double amping the headphone. Probably better actually. So can a third party makes something similar that offer better SQ? Yes, but you need Apple to license your the MFi chip in order to build such a cable, and so far no one outside of a few big brands and exclusive manufacturer have the license - and none of them has shown any sign of interest in such a cable. They do however want to sell you something much more expensive. and that leads us to...
   
  (2) to have an external DAC that can extract / communicate with the iPhone / iPad. We already have quite a few of those in the market since the previous generation of iPhone so I don't think I need to list any example here.


----------



## Craigster75

Quote: 





clieos said:


> I might be late to the discussion as I didn't read most of the previous posts - but there is no such a thing as a Lightning-to-E12 cable. That will be like the same as saying SPIDF-to-E12, Toslink-to-E12, or USB-to-E12 cable. What is the point of feeding a full digital signal to a full analog amp that can NOT decode those signal?
> 
> The only solution to the Lightning connector is to have:
> 
> ...


 

 Thank you for the clarification.  So you are saying I am better off using the E12 through a headphone jack connector vs. Apple's LIghtning-to-30-pin adapter?


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





craigster75 said:


> Thank you for the clarification.  So you are saying I am better off using the E12 through a headphone jack connector vs. Apple's LIghtning-to-30-pin adapter?


 
   
  In short, yes.


----------



## JamesFiiO

We did try to apply the MFi licence from Apple, to be honest that they are too arrogant to get back to us any schedule , the process just pause and got not any reply from them. not phone number , you don't know who is response to the application.
   
  and seems they have not interested to approve the licence to a Chinese small company. how can I said, and now Apple lose their magic and iPod/iPnone is not the only option to audiophile. 
   
  BTW, seems that only few big companies get the new MFi licence for the new lightning dock .  and the best way to use iPod/iPhone will be buy a portable DAC/AMP which can support digital decode features through the lightning dock. I think it just
   
  waste user't money because iPod/iPHone already includes a decent DAC chip inside, what they need to do is just connect the line out from the chip to a jack.


----------



## Craigster75

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> We did try to apply the MFi licence from Apple, to be honest that they are too arrogant to get back to us any schedule , the process just pause and got not any reply from them. not phone number , you don't know who is response to the application.
> 
> and seems they have not interested to approve the licence to a Chinese small company. how can I said, and now Apple lose their magic and iPod/iPnone is not the only option to audiophile.
> 
> ...


 

 I can imagine this is frustrating.  Unfortunately, I feel like Itunes has its hooks in me since most of my music is in AAC format, so I feel locked into my Iphone.


----------



## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





craigster75 said:


> I can imagine this is frustrating.  Unfortunately, I feel like Itunes has its hooks in me since most of my music is in AAC format, so I feel locked into my Iphone.


 
   
  Don't worry, our X3 support AAC, ALAC format . also may other will support the AAC/ALAC like the iRiver AK100


----------



## ScuderiaHeadFi

Feiao, don't worry about not getting Apple's cooperation.  Their standards are spurious and Steve Jobs never bathed.  Thank the hi-fi spirits I got away from Apple's megalomaniac clutches before forfeiting my entire library to their severe format restrictions.


----------



## UnityIsPower

scuderiaheadfi said:


> Feiao, don't worry about not getting Apple's cooperation.  Their standards are spurious and Steve Jobs never bathed.  Thank the hi-fi spirits I got away from Apple's megalomaniac clutches before forfeiting my entire library to their severe format restrictions.


 

Any other website I can purchase single songs rather then an entire album? Is why I like iTunes. Only other one I've tried is amazon. HD Tracks doesn't have much single song purchase availability from my look around.. :/


----------



## pelli

Quote: 





craigster75 said:


> As a suggestion, if you can recommend a third party lightning to E12 cable, I would feel more comfortable with the E12 as a "futureproofed" product in case I upgrade to Iphone 5.


 
  Sorry Craigster, didn't we go through all connection options ad nauseam a few pages ago?


----------



## Craigster75

Quote: 





pelli said:


> Sorry Craigster, didn't we go through all connection options ad nauseam a few pages ago?


 

 Actually, my apologies.  I am good now.  I suppose none of the options are ideal and was reaching to see if there were any others.


----------



## Evshrug

jamesfiio said:


> We did try to apply the MFi licence from Apple, to be honest that they are too arrogant to get back to us any schedule, the process just pause and got not any reply from them. not phone number , you don't know who is response to the application. and seems they have not interested to approve the licence to a Chinese small company. how can I said, and now Apple lose their magic and iPod/iPnone is not the only option to audiophile.



Always difficult, being a small fry trying to get the attention of a large entity. I can't tell you how many companies I've filled out applications for work, and I never even get a "no, thanks." I'm actually surprised that FiiO isn't getting a response, because of how much brand presence FiiO has in the community.


----------



## bowei006

evshrug said:


> Always difficult, being a small fry trying to get the attention of a large entity. I can't tell you how many companies I've filled out applications for work, and I never even get a "no, thanks." I'm actually surprised that FiiO isn't getting a response, because of how much brand presence FiiO has in the community.


FiiO has a lot of units out. They quoted it as 1 million. Which is a lot. But I guess being Chinese is a problem


----------



## gavinfabl

I can confirm uses the 30 pin lightning dock or cable is not worth the effort or cost. Just use the headphone out. Tried on iPad Mini and iPhone 5.


----------



## PsychoZX

Where can I order this from? Having trouble finding it for sale on a trustworthy sight.


----------



## bowei006

http://www.miccastore.com/fiio-e12-mont-blanc-portable-headphone-amplifier-p-101.html?osCsid=62a95c78286b82b8eebbdcae445b3f7b


----------



## Evshrug

psychozx said:


> Where can I order this from? Having trouble finding it for sale on a trustworthy sight.




Right now, the Micca store should be the only US distributor to start with.


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Right now, the Micca store should be the only US distributor to start with.


 
  Yep that is it


----------



## Xcellere

Quick question for everyone:
   
  I recently purchased a pair of Yamaha EPH-100 to use w/ my rMBP. Would the E12 be one of the better choices for a USB3 powered amp? USB3 powered is a requirement for whichever amp I purchase.


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





xcellere said:


> Quick question for everyone:
> 
> I recently purchased a pair of Yamaha EPH-100 to use w/ my rMBP. Would the E12 be one of the better choices for a USB3 powered amp? USB3 powered is a requirement for whichever amp I purchase.


 

 Uselsss
  
   
  USB 3.0 is speed improvements mainly. Audio IS NOT big in data. The 50MB/s that USB 2.0 can easily do is MORE than enough. Asynch USB is present on both USB 2.0 and 3.0
   
  USB 3.0 does not give it more power or anything.
   
  If you want an amp with USB 3.0 features that don't do anything. I would recommend you alert Monster that a new market is open for them.
   
  Sorry for the irony or sarcastic tone. But requiring USB 3.0 was just a bit funny.


----------



## sinquito

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> Uselsss
> 
> 
> USB 3.0 is speed improvements mainly. Audio IS NOT big in data. The 50MB/s that USB 2.0 can easily do is MORE than enough. Asynch USB is present on both USB 2.0 and 3.0
> ...


 
  Actually I think that USB 3.0 does give more current than the 2.0


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





sinquito said:


> Actually I think that USB 3.0 does give more current than the 2.0


 
   
   


> [size=12.727272033691406px] The USB 1.x and 2.0 specifications provide a 5 V supply on a single wire from which connected USB devices may draw power. The specification provides for no more than 5.25 V and no less than 4.75 V (5 V±5%) between the positive and negative bus power lines. For USB 3.0, the voltage supplied by low-powered hub ports is 4.45–5.25 V.[46][/size]
> 
> [size=12.727272033691406px] A unit load is defined as 100 mA in USB 2.0, and 150 mA in USB 3.0. A device may draw a maximum of 5 unit loads (500 mA) from a port in USB 2.0; 6 (900 mA) in USB 3.0.[/size]


 
  The majority of devices will have the same approx 5V output.
   
  USB 3.0 does support 900mA capability while USB 2.0 and 1.0/1.1 is capped at 500mA
   
  I was meaning that having USB 3.0 does not give the amp more power (200mW output with USB 2.0 and 300mW with USB 3.0 for example).
   
  A slower power draw is better for battery life as well. 
   
  But again, we get back to the point that most computers will probably use the regular spec USB 3.0 to conserve battery life.


----------



## Evshrug

My gigabyte motherboard offers wall-outlet level USB power for charging devices, same as the adapter that came with my iPad for charging from a wall outlet. I imagine a few desktops offer this "full power" USB spec (probably at the spec Boweii listed above), but laptops and normal USB ports usually supply less. The E12 supports both charging speeds.


----------



## tortex73

So I just ordered my E12 from the micca store last night, which I am very excited about.  But I must warn everyone, DO NOT use your good email addresses when you order from them. I did, and after 5 years of spam free operation I got my first piece of spam this morning. It could be pure coincidence, but I highly doubt it. 5 years no spam, then I order from micca and all of a sudden I get spam. Just a heads up.


----------



## UnityIsPower

tortex73 said:


> So I just ordered my E12 from the micca store last night, which I am very excited about.  But I must warn everyone, DO NOT use your good email addresses when you order from them. I did, and after 5 years of spam free operation I got my first piece of spam this morning. It could be pure coincidence, but I highly doubt it. 5 years no spam, then I order from micca and all of a sudden I get spam. Just a heads up.




I also have multiple email accounts. It seems a logical necessity given what wonders and horrors the interwebs offers....


----------



## tortex73

Quote: 





unityispower said:


> I also have multiple email accounts. It seems a logical necessity given what wonders and horrors the interwebs offers....


 
  Yep. I still have a couple that are completely spam free but I only use them for work and gmail syncing. The one that got hit is my primary account that I use for trusted website logins. Chrome auto-filled it in and I forgot to change it to a different one. Hopefully there won't be a deluge of spam to that account now.


----------



## AppleDappleman

I'm very very excited to hear about the comparisons of the E12 and the C&C BH!


----------



## candurin

I'll write up a review after I spend some more time with my e12 (just arrived an hour ago).  But, DAMN, the felt bag that came with it smells like abused motor oil..
   
  They should have laundered the bags.  I'm going to go stick it in the garage with a few fabric softner sheets overnight and see if that helps.


----------



## Bill-P

Quote: 





appledappleman said:


> I'm very very excited to hear about the comparisons of the E12 and the C&C BH!


 
   
  I just got my E12. Let me have a few hours with them first, and then I'll do the comparison with BH. I'll probably post a new thread for that, though.


----------



## AppleDappleman

Quote: 





bill-p said:


> I just got my E12. Let me have a few hours with them first, and then I'll do the comparison with BH. I'll probably post a new thread for that, though.


 
  I'm excited! If you have the time, throw me a PM to the link because its confusing checking every thread of things i'm interested in haha


----------



## Oregonian

I want to hear from someone who has an E-11 and can compare the E-12 to it objectively....................
   
  And specifically how the E-11 bass boost compares.
   
  Please resist the urge to LICIBI.  (love it cause I bought it).


----------



## dante2505

I have Sennheiser HD 598 and its frequency range 12hz - 38.5Khz
I need only AMP, because I have Sound Blaster Audigy in my PC and it is let's say enough for listen with my Senn through PC.
But also I have iphone, actually I'm meloman and sound quality is the scope in listening. In addition, I want portable use of my Headphone, relax on sofa and listen and so on .

So actually I think my choise should be between FiiO E11 and E12.
E11's frequency responce is 10hz-100Khz.
E12's frequency responce seems to be 20hz-20Khz when my HD 598 has 12hz - 38.5Khz.

So will not I hear as little details as I do right now through my Sound Blaster Audigy 24 Bit / 96 Khz (PC)?
I don't want to reduce opportunities of My HD 598 at all.
Or, maybe the frequency range is not a statical thing and its ranges may change depending on something?
I can't believe that E12 will have worse frequency response than E11.
Or, maybe ranges of frequency response are not as important parameters as, for example, the model of AMP chip?
I wanted to wait to E12 release and buy it, but after i saw its Frequency response, I'm a bit dissapointed.
Can you give me recommendations? Thanks in advance


----------



## Craigster75

Quote: 





dante2505 said:


> I have Sennheiser HD 598 and its frequency range 12hz - 38.5Khz
> I need only AMP, because I have Sound Blaster Audigy in my PC and it is let's say enough for listen with my Senn through PC.
> But also I have iphone, actually I'm meloman and sound quality is the scope in listening. In addition, I want portable use of my Headphone, relax on sofa and listen and so on
> 
> ...


 

 I'm not sure about the 100K Khz, but the human ear can't perceive anywhere near that.  The generic frequency response range for most products is 20 - 20K Khz because that is the max range of human hearing.  I have hears some of the crappiest earbuds that claim that response, so I would not factor in the response unless it is more than nominally above 20 or below 20K.  It tells a very small part of the sound story and IMO is something I take with a grain of salt.


----------



## szlnk

Quote: 





dante2505 said:


> E11's frequency responce is 10hz-100Khz.


 
   
  I didn't know E11 was designed for batmans 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  dante2505, read this:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hearing_range


----------



## dante2505

I agree with you and that article.
hearing 100Khz from humans ears in unreal.
But more important is low frequency, bassier sounds. HD 598 has excellent sound from low to high frequencies.
I'm new in Audiphole World, so I don't know exactly importance of each parameter of AMPs.
I've heard such a huge hopeful information about E12 from official page: 
http://www.fiio.com.cn/products/index.aspx?ID=100000038732625&MenuID=105026001
I've almost make decision positive for E12 . So I want to check any little detail about this product.
Now I can summarize your comments and say:
E12's Frequency Response 20hz-20Khz is quite enough even if I use this AMP with Sennheiser HD 598 with Freq resp of 12hz-38.5Khz.
Am I right?


----------



## Craigster75

Quote: 





dante2505 said:


> I agree with you and that article.
> hearing 100Khz from humans ears in unreal.
> But more important is low frequency, bassier sounds. HD 598 has excellent sound from low to high frequencies.
> I'm new in Audiphole World, so I don't know exactly importance of each parameter of AMPs.
> ...


 

 I have a feeling the E12 will sound fantastic.  I have also read a few reviews headed in that direction.  They seem like an excellent value.  The only advantages I see to the E11 over the E12 are compact size and bigger bass boost at half the price.


----------



## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





dante2505 said:


> I agree with you and that article.
> hearing 100Khz from humans ears in unreal.
> But more important is low frequency, bassier sounds. HD 598 has excellent sound from low to high frequencies.
> I'm new in Audiphole World, so I don't know exactly importance of each parameter of AMPs.
> ...


 
   
  sorry, the specifications is not so clear, the frequency response of E12 should be 10Hz to 100KHz or even more, usually it is not necessary to list the full range but we should list the real result of the test, will fix the mistake when we back to work


----------



## Craigster75

This question might sound strange to non-bassheads:  Since the E12 has a modest bass boost, has anyone tried double-amping E12 with ZO2.3?  I tried this with the E11 through the LOD and overall SQ seems to be maintained with the option of off-the-charts bass.


----------



## Bill-P

Quote: 





oregonian said:


> I want to hear from someone who has an E-11 and can compare the E-12 to it objectively....................
> 
> And specifically how the E-11 bass boost compares.
> 
> Please resist the urge to LICIBI.  (love it cause I bought it).


 
  I don't have an actual E11 here, so take this with a grain of salt, but E12 is the better overall amp from what I can remember of E11.
   
  For one, E11 has a plastic body. It's light and small, but it's also not very solid. I dented mine pretty easily by just leaving it in my jeans pocket.
   
  For another, E11 seems to have this inherent bass-boost that's always on, and flipping the bass boost switch just makes it louder. In a nutshell, it does give more vibrations, but mostly just that. There was no control, tightness, definition, texture, or body to bass. It was just pure vibration. At louder volumes, E11 can clip and cause the bass boost to turn into static, or "white noise" if you prefer that term.
   
  In comparison, E12 is a lot more refined throughout the whole spectrum: it's well-connected and smooth from top to bottom; bass is very textured, well-defined, and high-resolution; midrange is full, warm, and rich without any hint of sibilance; treble is suave, and airy; soundstage is deep, layered, and just about wide enough.
   
  I'm not a basshead (not anymore, at least). Just someone who really loves good sound, and to my ears, E12 makes better sound than E11.
   
  But again, take that with a grain of salt. I don't have an actual E11 here to A/B, and my memory may not be the most reliable.


----------



## goodvibes

E11 always sounded a bit heavy to me as well though that's generally better than bright. Can't imagine what;s better for the price. Only the edge of the e11 is plastic. Top and bottom are aluminium.
   
  Sounds like the E12 is something I'd like.


----------



## dante2505

Thanks for sharing you experience.
I also think that there is a mistake in E12's Frequency Responce in official page of FiiO.
This model will consist of two chips, first of which is used for AMP and the second for signal output.
All the description and all the reviews from this and other sites are just very hopeful and that's way I also decided to buy E12.
My HD 598 will wait Mont Blanc until April 2013


----------



## goodvibes

The spec is unimportant. Your digital files have nothing over 20Khz and it wouldn't matter if they did.
   
  Here's another review. http://www.headfonia.com/fiios-power-pack-the-fiio-e12-mont-blanc/


----------



## bowei006

I would have liked to review the E12 with my custom unit as template. But it hasn't arrived yet.
   
   
  E12 review will be out soon.


----------



## sinquito

Quote: 





dante2505 said:


> I have Sennheiser HD 598 and its frequency range 12hz - 38.5Khz
> I need only AMP, because I have Sound Blaster Audigy in my PC and it is let's say enough for listen with my Senn through PC.
> But also I have iphone, actually I'm meloman and sound quality is the scope in listening. In addition, I want portable use of my Headphone, relax on sofa and listen and so on
> 
> ...


 
  I bet you can't even hear beyond 15KHz, so don't worry about that, I haven't heard neither of those amps but I pretty sure that the E12 sounds the best.


----------



## xezi

Quote: 





dante2505 said:


> So actually I think my choise should be between FiiO E11 and E12.
> E11's frequency responce is 10hz-100Khz.
> E12's frequency responce seems to be 20hz-20Khz when my HD 598 has 12hz - 38.5Khz.


 
   
  I would use caution concluding the frequency range spec is irrelevant.
  Saying so states, for example, that Sennheiser engineers don't know what they're talking
  about in their specs.
   
  Though it's not yet clear to myself either what are the practical impacts/benefits
  of a wider frequency response, and may be even not directly related to musical content per se,
  nonetheless I will refrain to say it's none. 
   
  Maybe you should keep that (your original researched data) in consideration.


----------



## UnityIsPower

xezi said:


> I would use caution concluding the frequency range spec is irrelevant.
> Saying so states, for example, that Sennheiser engineers don't know what they're talking
> about in their specs.
> 
> ...




Have u read this?

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html


----------



## Andries

what seems to be the best dac to pare this with for around $100?


----------



## xezi

Quote: 





unityispower said:


> Have u read this?
> 
> http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html


 
  I haven't, but I did now, and there were a lot of data there that I wasn't aware of. Tx for the tip.
   
  If we take the article as correct, then we should imply that all companies that sell
  consumer dac/amps, amps, headphones, saying they are 24 bit or compliant or
  show a frequency range above 20kHz are doing this for pure marketing reasons?
  That is a bold statement, I believe.
   
  Some years ago, there was a hype about PMPO, maybe you remember that.
  Sony stereo systems came with a tag stating that they give a PMPO number for
  the sake of comparison for the consumer, but they warn that this measure
  has no technical significance, only RMS has. PMPO was just a number. I wonder if world class 
  manufacturers, such as Sennheiser, Denon, Grado, wouldn't warn the consumer
  for similar reasons?
   
  One thing I was thinking these days, about consumer 24bit amps or dac/amps and so,
  is this: if you supply 1Vp for your headphone with 16bit resolution, that would give
  a 31uV quantization step, which is a very demanding circuit design already. 
   
  Now, if your system is running with 24bit quantization, that would be an 119nV quantization step,
  supposing a linear curve. And that is a spaceship-grade noise level/quantization noise/quantization error,
  even with dithering considered, which raises up some serious doubt about consumer products with these specs, indeed.
   
  In conclusion, I am eager to listen from manufacturing people what they know,
  it's a bit of a gray area for me yet.
   
  Tx.


----------



## Bina

Quote: 





goodvibes said:


> The spec is unimportant. Your digital files have nothing over 20Khz and it wouldn't matter if they did.
> 
> Here's another review. http://www.headfonia.com/fiios-power-pack-the-fiio-e12-mont-blanc/


 
  Interesting review, it seems that only good pairing is with HE400 and some bassier protable headphones and doesnt work well with iems. Anyone else agree with this?


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





bina said:


> Interesting review, it seems that only good pairing is with HE400 and some bassier protable headphones and* doesnt work well with iems*. Anyone else agree with this?


 

 I don't find that to be true.
   
  Does E12 pair particularly well with IEM? No. But does it not working well with IEM? No as well. So there is no special synergy between E12 and IEM? Yes, I would say so. E12 biggest strength is in its raw power, and IEM just so happens don't usually need that much power, and so you won't notice much improvement on overall performance, but it is not to say it is bad.


----------



## mikek200

Quote: 





clieos said:


> I don't find that to be true.
> 
> Does E12 pair particularly well with IEM? No. But does it not working well with IEM? No as well. So there is no special synergy between E12 and IEM? Yes, I would say so. E12 biggest strength is in its raw power, and IEM just so happens don't usually need that much power, and so you won't notice much improvement on overall performance, but it is not to say it is bad.


 
  What about using it with say the RE-262.??
  Which Fiio amp is recommended for portable use,carrying it around all day ,with my i-phone??


----------



## Craigster75

I have a question for bassheads.  I have a strong interest in the E12 as an upgrade to my E11 and feel the overall sound will be a big improvement.  However, I am concerned I will miss the generous bass boost of the E11 since the E12's is only +3dB.  I am considering the JDS Labs C5 with a +6dB bass boost, but it will probably cost about $75 more and I don't know if the overall sound will be better.  I am also considering the Headstage Arrow 12HE that has two-stage bass boost of +3dB and +9dB, but it is $170 more.
   
  I am thinking the most cost effective solution for portable use with my Iphone 4 would be to use line out with the E12 and double amp with my ZO2.3 when needed.  I'm thinking that there would be minimal degradation in SQ because, in theory, the ZO was originally made for double amping by running through the headphone jack and using the player's amp.  I am also going on the assumption that the E12, with FiiO offering the best value in amps, would hold its own sonically with the C5 and 12HE so that I can have the bass boost I want for certain genres, excellent SQ and minimize cost.
   
  I currently have Vamp and should be happy with that.  The sound is fantastic, but there is no bass boost, it doesn't double amp well with the ZO and doesn't have as much power as I would like at only 150mw/channel.
   
  Any thoughts?


----------



## JamesFiiO

some background information about the design of E12.
   
  1, As the flagship model, the difference between E12 and E11 is not only the power output, of course, the power output is the most noticeable difference, but with the 0dB gain setting in E12, the sound quality is still noticeable better than E11.
   
     I don't think it is not suitable for IEMs, of course, it should be confirmed by our customer when more and more people get their Mont Blanc, 
   
  2, About the bass boost, Mont Blanc is design to drive some good headphones which should already have very good bass sound, that is why we move the bass boost to the very low frequency and the boost value is quite limit, I think in most 
   
     song, the bass boost is not work because there are not sub bass in the song. few user already report this. of course, some may enjoy it but some may not. but I think we should increase the bass boost a little in the next batch. 
   
   
  So, do you really want more bass boost in Mont Blanc ?


----------



## JamesFiiO

BTW, in my opinion, the best way to get a high quality bass is to find a headphone which is good at bass, the amp or the DAP with EQ/Bass Boost may help to get a better bass in a headphone, but it is not the best way . 
   
  at the other hand, bass is always means huge demand for the power, so a bassheads may not push out all the bass because you have not give them enough power. if you can see the speakers, you will always notice the 
   
  there are a very big bass driver in size and very tiny treble driver in size.


----------



## Craigster75

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> some background information about the design of E12.
> 
> 1, As the flagship model, the difference between E12 and E11 is not only the power output, of course, the power output is the most noticeable difference, but with the 0dB gain setting in E12, the sound quality is still noticeable better than E11.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> *BTW, in my opinion, the best way to get a high quality bass is to find a headphone which is good at bass, the amp or the DAP with EQ/Bass Boost may help to get a better bass in a headphone, but it is not the best way . *
> 
> at the other hand, bass is always means huge demand for the power, so a bassheads may not push out all the bass because you have not give them enough power. if you can see the speakers, you will always notice the
> 
> there are a very big bass driver in size and very tiny treble driver in size.


 

 Thank you for the response.  I believe there is a market for those who want more bass boost.  However, I also recognize many will be happy with modest bass boost as you have currently.  Several months ago you mentioned the possibility of a special edition.  My suggestion would be to offer a limited run special edition with higher bass boost.  Maybe the E12B? You could use this limited run to test interest in more bass boost.  The ideal would be a two-stage bass boost of +3 and +8 or +9.  I would be first in line for an E12 with higher bass boost and will hold off purchasing an amp until I know if you have an interest in producing this.
   
  This forum may help provide you with some insight regarding how strong the interest is for bigger bass:
   
http://www.head-fi.org/t/573826/the-basshead-club
   
  To expand on your comment regarding finding a headphone with good bass, a basshead want to find that great bassy headphone, then maximize the headphone's bass potential with a bass-boosted amp.  I certainly don't find this optimal all the time, but when I listen to pop, dance, EDM, hip hop or R&B, I want to have the option for my basshead side to come out and enjoy a great head thump.


----------



## RoMee

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> some background information about the design of E12.
> 
> 1, As the flagship model, the difference between E12 and E11 is not only the power output, of course, the power output is the most noticeable difference, but with the 0dB gain setting in E12, the sound quality is still noticeable better than E11.
> 
> ...


 
  I along with other bassheads skipped the E12 because the bass boost is not enough, so yeah a better bass boost would be nice. 
  If you can easily up the bass than why not make a bass version for bassheads and leave the current version the way it is for non-basshead. 
   
  EDIT:
  If you want more opinion than you should add a poll to this thread or start a new thread with a poll.
  I never felt the need to upgrade from my E11 because of the bass boost and sound quality was almost perfect for me, I was really looking forward to the E12, but right now the C5 is the better option for us bassheads if we're looking to upgrade.


----------



## Craigster75

Quote: 





romee said:


> I along with other bassheads skipped the E12 because the bass boost is not enough, so yeah a better bass boost would be nice.
> If you can easily up the bass than why not *make a bass version for bassheads and leave the current version the way it is for non-basshead. *
> 
> EDIT:
> ...


 
  This option would work for me as well if it is too much investment in retooling for a two-stage switch and easier/more cost effective to just increase the EQ internally on the bass.  You could market as the Monte Carlo BTB edition (for Bring the Bass) for mass appeal beyond Head-fi.


----------



## gavinfabl

With my Sennheiser HD558 and even my Bose AE2i the E12 gives depth. When that low bass is in the song, the sudden impact is inspiring, musical and fast. 

I couldn't care about specs. I just want to know what it sounds like. I would describe the E12 being able to find music in the music, and with music that goes from quiet to loud to exploding, the E12 delivers. 

Maybe that's what excessive power provides?

As a point of interest I didn't like the E11. Bass was too much or too little and the sound felt dark. 

The other day I was lying on the bed listening to the soundtrack from Titanic. I was so involved in the music, that when my wife tapped my arm I jumped out of my skin. For me, this is what I adore about the E12.


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

I'm also a basshead and skipping E12 due to lack of bass adjustment, currently spoiled with ZO's unique 32-lvl bass boost adjustment and it'll take some serious sound quality boost to give up 0.5~1dB bass boost increment adjustment for me.
   
  For me one setting isn't enough, 3dB is pretty fine for one setting but I'd rather have at least +2dB, +4dB and +6dB because obviously it will depend on how much the headphone comes with for how much is needed so therefore one setting won't increase the chances of reaching the desired bass levels that much (can either be too little or too much). See it this way too, a bass recessed headphone can even be made neutral in the bass so I wouldn't just assume bass boost takes away from the "seriousness" of an amp, it just increases the chances for the consumers to get the desired bass levels and the choice of headphone becomes a slightly less picky process when there's one less factor to worry about.


----------



## Evshrug

Hmm, maybe I should finish my E12 review now that the general release is starting.


----------



## Trae

You can count me in for a bassier E12. I'm going to be getting a portable amp to use sometime in the future, and something like a E12/DigiZoid hybrid would be perfect. In other words, you'll have something like a +/- button on the side that you push to either increase or decrease the bass quantity in increments. That'll allow people to fine-tune whatever setting they want for the low end, instead of having one switch that's either too much or too little for a particular headphone or song.


----------



## Craigster75

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Hmm, maybe I should finish my E12 review now that the general release is starting.


 

 Looking forward to it, especially comparisons to other portable amps.


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





andries said:


> what seems to be the best dac to pare this with for around $100?


 
  Wolfson and Cirrus Logic flagships(or equivalent) both sound good.
  Quote: 





clieos said:


> I don't find that to be true.
> 
> Does E12 pair particularly well with IEM? No. But does it not working well with IEM? No as well. So there is no special synergy between E12 and IEM? Yes, I would say so. E12 biggest strength is in its raw power, and IEM just so happens don't usually need that much power, and so you won't notice much improvement on overall performance, but it is not to say it is bad.


 
  Yeah this is the same for me. 
   
  Even on 0 gain, it isn't really easy to use with IEM's, and especially linear armature ones.
   
  For nuetral/monitor armature IEM's. the E12 is of course much better than say using an E11 if you are going for clarity. 
   
  For example, pairing the 4ai with the E11 works. If you want more bass and color that is. But the 4ai's quality is a smooth neutral IEM and some probably wouldn't want any of the added coloration of the e11(not saying that the e12 doesn't have any) and so then, the E12 would pair better in that sense.
   
  But of course, the e12 is raw power. And sometimes it just doesn't do too well with some IEM's
  Quote: 





craigster75 said:


> I have a question for bassheads.  I have a strong interest in the E12 as an upgrade to my E11 and feel the overall sound will be a big improvement.  However, I am concerned I will miss the generous bass boost of the E11 since the E12's is only +3dB.  I am considering the JDS Labs C5 with a +6dB bass boost, but it will probably cost about $75 more and I don't know if the overall sound will be better.  I am also considering the Headstage Arrow 12HE that has two-stage bass boost of +3dB and +9dB, but it is $170 more.
> 
> I am thinking the most cost effective solution for portable use with my Iphone 4 would be to use line out with the E12 and double amp with my ZO2.3 when needed.  I'm thinking that there would be minimal degradation in SQ because, in theory, the ZO was originally made for double amping by running through the headphone jack and using the player's amp.  I am also going on the assumption that the E12, with FiiO offering the best value in amps, would hold its own sonically with the C5 and 12HE so that I can have the bass boost I want for certain genres, excellent SQ and minimize cost.
> 
> ...


 
   
  The E12 is not for bass heads.
   
  Well not not for them. I am one, but I am not always a bass head. I like a good responce for every frequency basically. 
   
  http://youtu.be/JxrVEYqNljc
   
  These are my general E11 and E12 impressions. I don't get specific into audio qualities of the E12. It's only a general thing so people know whats up.
   
  The E12 is much different from other units FiiO has released in the past. It's much more neutral and has a sense of authority. By this, I mean that it literally feels and sounds like a more expensive amp.


----------



## Bill-P

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> So, do you really want more bass boost in Mont Blanc ?


 
  From what I'm hearing in my ATH-ES10 (notoriously bass-heavy), I must say... no, I don't think I want more bass boost.
   
  Maybe something like the ATH-M50 will need the bass boost, but I don't think boosting bass even more is necessary for certain headphones.
   
  I'm attending the SF Bay Area meet in 2 weeks, so I'll have access to a lot of high-end headphones. If I get the chance, I'll write up a paragraph or two about how those headphones pair with E12.


----------



## jmsilva22

Quote: 





trae said:


> something like a +/- button on the side that you push to either increase or decrease the bass quantity in increments.


 
   
  ^^This is a great idea.
   
  Another option would be a single push button (color coded like E6) to select the bass amount -instead- of the slide switch like the E11. That way users don't have to be fiddling with the switch to make sure is in the right position.
   
  0 = no led
  +2 = blue
  +4 = red
  +6 = purple


----------



## Evshrug

I agree with what Feiao said about bass, if you want more then you ought to get a bassier headphone, an EQ is not the cleanest way to achieve more. That said, sometimes you love your headphones, but a few particular songs might benefit from an extra boost. I think the E6 style EQ is a great idea, late as it might be for inclusion in the Mont Blanc, it would also make blind testing easy 

All that said though... The extra current from the E12 I have DOES shore-up the bass response, making it's presence felt without a need for boosting the decibel loudness of bass compared to the rest of the mix. I think of it this way: I like to feel bass when a song, movie, or game calls for it, but I don't need bass LOUDER proportionately to the mids or trebles. If your headphone does not suffer from bass (or treble) roll-off, then the extra current provided by the E12 solidifies the presence of harder-to-drive frequencies and headphones to bring them alongside the rest of the frequencies.

What I'm hearing is really good, maybe what others are hoping for in a dB, voltage boost in bass is actually enough current at the listening-volume voltage to give bass the authority and dynamism lacking in weaker amps paired with hard-to-drive headphones.


----------



## JoetheArachnid

Sorry if this has been already asked somewhere (I checked back ~5 pages) but is there anywhere to buy the E12 in the UK/Europe yet? Customs fees for orders from the US is something I'd rather not have to deal with right now.
  I haven't been following the development of this amp like I did with the E11, but I might review it if I can get one since my E11 review went down pretty well.


----------



## RoMee

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> I agree with what Feiao said about bass, if you want more then you ought to get a bassier headphone, an EQ is not the cleanest way to achieve more.


 
  Here's the thing, I don't want to have to buy new headphones just for one $130 amp. What's the point of buying an amp if it doesn't work with your current headphones?
  What I loved about the E11 is I can turn up the bass when needed and lower it when it's not needed. I can adjust it to what ever headphone I plug into it. The E12 takes this option away, and the only solution is to go buy new headphones? Sure it works great for you non-bassheads, but for those of us who wants more bass, 3db is not enough. 
  I don't use EQ so I depend on the bass boost from my amp to give me that extra bass. The E12 can't do this, so I passed on it and now I'm waiting for the C5.


----------



## Evshrug

romee said:


> Here's the thing, I don't want to buy new headphones just for one $130 amp. What's the point of buying an amp if it doesn't work with your current headphones?
> What I loved about the E11 is I can turn up the bass when needed and lower it when it's not needed. I can adjust it to what ever headphone I plug into it. The E12 takes this option away, and the only solution is to go buy new headphones? Sure it works great for you non-bassheads, but for those of us who wants more bass, 3db is not enough.
> I don't use EQ so I depend on the bass boost from my amp to give me that extra bass. The E12 can't do this, so I passed on it and now I'm waiting for the C5.



Or, you could look at it another way, the E12 "works with your current headphones," but maybe for easy-to-drive headphones with poor bass extension, the E11 you currently have may be better suited to your current headphones. The Audio Technica M50, good headphone, probably better suited to an E11 anyway and not benefiting as much from extra power.

I guess I should add that my headphones are Q701, which are of a higher tier than average headphones, and are tricky to drive because their sensitivity/impedance don't require much voltage to sound loud enough, BUT scale up a lot with a strong current supply. They also have better bass extension than M50s or the AD700 I actually own, and the bass actually didn't sound much fuller in the Q701 from the AD700 UNTIL I added a powerful amp that can supply more current than straight from my iPod. Some headphones benefit from that more than others, YMMV, for ME the E12 fits because I have a bunch of places I like to listen and a variety of headphones. And I'm not saying a bigger bass boost wouldn't be nice sometimes, BUT I appreciate the modestly because worse than a colorless (or nearly colorless amp) is adding grain and loosing the smooth fidelity of my headphones and files. For me, distortion during bass notes is the FIRST thing that causes sound to lose it's "Hi-Fi" quality.

It would be easier if I could just show you by letting you hear my Q701 with the E12 vs an M50 with a bass-boosted ZO. Since I can't, all I can say (in different ways) is keep your mind open to the possibility that bass-boost isn't everything.


----------



## RoMee

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Or, you could look at it another way, the E12 "works with your current headphones," but maybe for easy-to-drive headphones with poor bass extension, the E11 you currently have may be better suited to your current headphones. The Audio Technica M50, good headphone, probably better suited to an E11 anyway and not benefiting as much from extra power.
> 
> I guess I should add that my headphones are Q701, which are of a higher tier than average headphones, and are tricky to drive because their sensitivity/impedance don't require much voltage to sound loud enough, BUT scale up a lot with a strong current supply. They also have better bass extension than M50s or the AD700 I actually own, and the bass actually didn't sound much fuller in the Q701 from the AD700 UNTIL I added a powerful amp that can supply more current than straight from my iPod. Some headphones benefit from that more than others, YMMV, for ME the E12 fits because I have a bunch of places I like to listen and a variety of headphones. And I'm not saying a bigger bass boost wouldn't be nice sometimes, BUT I appreciate the modestly because worse than a colorless (or nearly colorless amp) is adding grain and loosing the smooth fidelity of my headphones and files. For me, distortion during bass notes is the FIRST thing that causes sound to lose it's "Hi-Fi" quality.
> 
> It would be easier if I could just show you by letting you hear my Q701 with the E12 vs an M50 with a bass-boosted ZO. Since I can't, all I can say (in different ways) is keep your mind open to the possibility that bass-boost isn't everything.


 
  You're not a basshead and your M50 and 701 are not basshead cans so you wouldn't understand. If I wasn't a basshead I would be in the same boat as you.
  You need to look at this from a basshead's point of view not your own.
   
  Plain and simple, the E12 is not for bassheads, and if FiiO can make a version with a better bass boost, than great, I'll be first in line for one maybe two, if they can't/won't than I'll just take my money elsewhere. 
  I'm not here demanding FiiO change the E12, I'm simply answering a question by Feiao. 


> So, do you really want more bass boost in Mont Blanc ? Yes I do


 
  FYI, I have tried the 701 along with other "hifi" headphones, and I can tell you, they do nothing for the music I listen to.


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> I agree with what Feiao said about bass, if you want more then you ought to get a bassier headphone, an EQ is not the cleanest way to achieve more.


 
   
  I disagree, there exists no refined basshead cans with the amounts I'm looking for, I get better result picking a less bassy headphone and give it some boost especially with the ZO amp than no boost with a bassier headphone. Not all amps handle bass boost equally well for that matter, there's a big difference in how it's configured. Low frequencies consume a lot more power so ideally that range would need a bit more power if you end up boosting say 5dB for example.
   
  The sweetspot for me is around 8dB bass boost in the headphone (what I usually go search for when picking a new candidate to test), then apply sliightly more from the ZO -> perfect. Bassy but with plenty of details, has to be experienced to be believed though because it sounds much better than say your typical extreme basshead can this way. I've yet to hear a 10dB+ bass boosted headphone sounding as detailed as I'm looking for, with a bit below 10dB + some bass boost from the amp it's possible though to get satisfactory detail retrieval.
   


jmsilva22 said:


> ^^This is a great idea.
> 
> Another option would be a single push button (color coded like E6) to select the bass amount -instead- of the slide switch like the E11. That way users don't have to be fiddling with the switch to make sure is in the right position.
> 
> ...


 
   
  I like this idea too, a single push button that switches between different settings.


----------



## Evshrug

Sorry, I was saying I have the AD700, haven't heard the M50 myself. I was just using it as an example.
And if you ARE a basshead and you DO want bass all the time, then why Don't you have very bassy headphones? I hear Phiathon(sic) and a few others are very highly regarded, I liked my V-MODA LPs as a bassy alternative sometimes before I misplaced them somewhere. Or if you do have bass-favored headphones and you still want it boosted more, then... yeah, you're going to make some fidelity compromises. Heavy bass boosting is on the other extreme from a cold, thin sound. I think the E12 is very balanced, neither cold nor hot, and the bass boost is more for "balancing" than transforming a headphone's color.

If the E11 bass boost does well for you, why upgrade? FWIR the first ZO went overboard and the compromises from that design slotted it into niche appeal, they toned it down a bit in the second revision. I'm not saying this amp here fulfills your needs, I don't care cuz I already have one and I like mine, but I was just trying to make the point that a balanced amp with a modest bass boost option has broader applications than an aggressive bass boost option.

In summary... *shrug* if you want to add more bass volume over the other frequencies, then yeah, this amp isn't for you. For _others,_ I'm just making a point that a greater dB boost isn't the only aspect of great bass, great sound. If that point presents a challenge that upsets you, I'm sorry because I did not intend to cause upset.


----------



## RoMee

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Sorry, I was saying I have the AD700, haven't heard the M50 myself. I was just using it as an example.
> And if you ARE a basshead and you DO want bass all the time, then why Don't you have very bassy headphones? I hear Phiathon(sic) and a few others are very highly regarded, I liked my V-MODA LPs as a bassy alternative sometimes before I misplaced them somewhere. Or if you do have bass-favored headphones and you still want it boosted more, then... yeah, you're going to make some fidelity compromises. Heavy bass boosting is on the other extreme from a cold, thin sound. I think the E12 is very balanced, neither cold nor hot, and the bass boost is more for "balancing" than transforming a headphone's color.
> 
> If the E11 bass boost does well for you, why upgrade? FWIR the first ZO went overboard and the compromises from that design slotted it into niche appeal, they toned it down a bit in the second revision. I'm not saying this amp here fulfills your needs, I don't care cuz I already have one and I like mine, but I was just trying to make the point that a balanced amp with a modest bass boost option has broader applications than an aggressive bass boost option.
> ...


 
  You got to read what people write more thoroughly, I never said I want bass all the time.
   


> What I loved about the E11 is I can *turn up the bass when needed and lower it when it's not needed*.


 
  Like I said you're not a basshead so you'll never understand.
  Also no one is asking FiiO to change the E12, we're just answering a simple question by Feiao


----------



## mikeaj

Quote: 





xezi said:


> Spoiler: Warning%3A%20Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  There's a benefit of 24 bits and higher sample rates for the hardware, just not really for final masters of music intended for playback for humans.  No hardware gets close to 24 bits precision, but they can definitely go beyond 16 bits if designed carefully.  I guess you could say the features and capability are more for marketing than anything else, but there's something legitimate there.
   
  When looking at frequency range specs for headphones / amps... don't take it seriously.  What matters is the performance in the range you can hear.  Maybe if a transducer can put a piddling amount of energy out at 30 kHz (how much? that's what counts and they usually don't say), for example, it might be better at reproducing tones at 12 kHz than one that can't really go beyond 26 kHz.  Or not.  Can't really say.
   
   
   
  Anyway, for current E12 users, how does the charging work?  Battery life on typical usage?  Operation while charging (increased noise, maybe)?
   
  Personally for an amp bass boost, I prefer something confined to the lower frequencies and not bleeding through the midrange, but I'm really not a basshead at all.  Seems like E12 bass boost would be agreeable with me.


----------



## Evshrug

rpgwizard said:


> I disagree, there exists no refined basshead cans with the amounts I'm looking for, I get better result picking a less bassy headphone and give it some boost especially with the ZO amp than no boost with a bassier headphone. Not all amps handle bass boost equally well for that matter, there's a big difference in how it's configured. Low frequencies consume a lot more power so ideally that range would need a bit more power if you end up boosting say 5dB for example.




Look, I don't mean to step my foot into it, but my understanding is that yes, low frequencies consume more power, yes, the E12's dB boost is subtle, but what if the requirement for more power is more about supplying enough current than supplying more voltage and dB boost? On a subjective level however, if you DO want bass louder than the other frequencies (and I'm not judging that, I'm not saying individual taste is bad), then yeah you're gonna want a different amp. Craigster's idea of source-->ZO with bass boost-->E12 (for balanced power/current amping)--> M100 headphones is interesting, I'd like to know if he likes it, even if my taste makes me shy of anything reaching XB500 quantity (not talking about quality).

I also wanted to point out, when I said the Q701 was "hi-fi," it's not a reflection on my opinion of myself, but merely that usually higher-end headphones are the ones that require more current AND voltage to sound good AND loud enough, and the Q701 in particular is an odd beast that is really sensitive to amping. High end headphones (for which I think the E12 is targeting) also _usually_ have more balance than bass emphasis, and slight colorations in the audio chain are pretty noticeable when trying to reveal as much as possible from the recording and performance.


----------



## quisxx

In, for support of E12 bass version


----------



## Evshrug

mikeaj said:


> There's a benefit of 24 bits and higher sample rates for the hardware, just not really for final masters of music intended for playback for humans.  No hardware gets close to 24 bits precision, but they can definitely go beyond 16 bits if designed carefully.  I guess you could say the features and capability are more for marketing than anything else, but there's something legitimate there.
> 
> When looking at frequency range specs for headphones / amps... don't take it seriously.  What matters is the performance in the range you can hear.  Maybe if a transducer can put a piddling amount of energy out at 30 kHz (how much? that's what counts and they usually don't say), for example, it might be better at reproducing tones at 12 kHz than one that can't really go beyond 26 kHz.  Or not.  Can't really say.
> 
> ...




Energy at 30Hz... This is what I was trying to talk about. And now, I'm done talking about it, because people are getting the wrong idea.

Charging is done through USB, which scales speed of charging if you are using a computer's USB port or if the USB is plugged into a wall-wart. It takes a couple of hours to charge, but you can use it while plugged in. There is an increase in noise while charging, it's not bad but noticeable. I haven't timed the battery life yet, but I've been using it for gaming and music pretty 5 days a week since I got it and have only had to recharge it twice. There's a nice "low battery" light now, that also indicates charging. The E12 bass boost does a really good job of staying confined to sub-frequencies and adds almost no grain, though I think it's better thought of as a bass "balance" than a boost.


----------



## Evshrug

quisxx said:


> In, for support of E12 bass version



Maybe the DIY version will allow you to color the sound to your liking?


----------



## RoMee

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Maybe the DIY version will allow you to color the sound to your liking?


 
  I'm not sure why you're getting so upset about people wanting a bassier version.
*No one is asking FiiO to change the E12*, just make a bassier version.
   
  You non-bassheads still have your E12
  We bassheads get a bassier version of the E12
  FiiO gets more money
  Everyone wins.
   
   
  And this whole discussion about a possible bassier version of the E12 was started by FiiO not us.


----------



## H20Fidelity

How cool would it be, if you could plug E12 into your PC via USB and adjust the bass boost DB manually! 

Just sayin!


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





h20fidelity said:


> How cool would it be, if you could plug E12 into your PC via USB and adjust the bass boost DB manually!
> 
> Just sayin!


 
  It would be cool but not very usable or a great use of resources for FiiO.
   
  The E12 is just an amp. Having to plug in to a PC just to adjust bass wouldn't be too fun.
   
  Depending on how much it would cost, if it seemed to be a good invesetment or not. An E12 with more bass boost options would be viable. But that is up to them.


----------



## campj

Well to be able to program how many db the bass boost button increases would be awesome! You program yours for +3, I program mine for +6, RoMee programs his for +100 or whatever, and we all have as much bass as we want at the flip of a switch. Great idea!


----------



## RoMee

Quote: 





campj said:


> Well to be able to program how many db the bass boost button increases would be awesome! You program yours for +3, I program mine for +6,* RoMee programs his for +100 or whatever*, and we all have as much bass as we want at the flip of a switch. Great idea!


 
  lol, subjective reading


----------



## campj

Just messing with you 
   
  I like bass too.


----------



## RoMee

Quote: 





campj said:


> Just messing with you
> 
> I like bass too.


 




   
  A 5db or 6db bass boost would be enough for me.


----------



## Craigster75

Quote: 





romee said:


> A 5db or 6db bass boost would be enough for me.


 

 I could work with that.  If the option for boost is only on or off, 6dB seems like a good compromise.


----------



## simonpking

[size=10pt]i'm inching to hear this fella [size=10pt]after reading this thread.... mid march huh?[/size][/size]


----------



## Evshrug

Please, I wasn't talking to you. I simply was pointing out that Feiao had mentioned a limited edition DIY version, so that could be a viable option. I promise, I am not opposing you, upset, or trolling. I understand you want more bass volume sometimes, that's cool *shrug* no big deal, I suggested a couple options and shared my experience, and if you know better about what a basshead likes, that's fine too. You're just as entitled to opinions and suggestions as I am, neither of our experiences are "wrong." Now that you've established your position, could you please stop quoting me and implying that I want to fight?


----------



## Bill-P

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> ...There is an increase in noise while charging, it's not bad but noticeable...


 
  I just want to note that if you have an external USB external battery handy... like the Zagg Sparq (1.0) that I'm using, then there is no noise whatsoever.
   
  But then, I've used the same battery for any other amp, and never got any of them to produce any noise, so I guess external battery is the way to go if you plan to listen while charging.


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





mikek200 said:


> What about using it with say the RE-262.??
> Which Fiio amp is recommended for portable use,carrying it around all day ,with my i-phone??


 
   
  RE262? Quite good sounding actually. Better than any of the FiiO amp so far of course.
   
  As for which FiiO amp to recommend - that mainly depends on how much weight you are willing to carry around. If that isn't an issue, E12.
   
   
  Quote: 





craigster75 said:


> Any thoughts?


 
   
  E12 bass boost is a little over +4.5dB, center around 30Hz and goes up around 200Hz or so with a 16ohm load. It is more like a deep-bass boost rather than the usual wide-bass boost (up to 1kHz) seen on older FiiO. If you like mid-bass (250Hz) boost, E12 doesn't have it.
   
  Quote: 





bill-p said:


> I just want to note that if you have an external USB external battery handy... like the Zagg Sparq (1.0) that I'm using, then there is no noise whatsoever.
> 
> But then, I've used the same battery for any other amp, and never got any of them to produce any noise, so I guess external battery is the way to go if you plan to listen while charging.


 
   
  E12 can run for over 12hours on a single charge (tested it twice). Unless you actually do listen to it for the whole day, you don't really need to recharge it that often. You can just leave it charging overnight when you are at sleep.


----------



## ClieOS

double posted.


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

Quote: 





bill-p said:


> I just want to note that if you have an external USB external battery handy... like the Zagg Sparq (1.0) that I'm using, then there is no noise whatsoever.
> 
> But then, I've used the same battery for any other amp, and never got any of them to produce any noise, so I guess external battery is the way to go if you plan to listen while charging.


 
   
  Well you can simply also buy a USB power adapter and charge it from the wall socket (no noise then either). What I've done with my ZO amp, I keep it plugged in and only let it recharge every now and then for battery's sake.


----------



## JamesFiiO

there are so many kinds of USB power, and some of them come with very poor power output especially the output noise which is hard to be removed by E12.


----------



## bowei006

It can be used while charging but there is a faint buzzing noise. 

For the reasons above.


----------



## Craigster75

Quote: 





clieos said:


> E12 bass boost is a little over +4.5dB, center around 30Hz and goes up around 200Hz or so with a 16ohm load. It is more like a deep-bass boost rather than the usual wide-bass boost (up to 1kHz) seen on older FiiO. If you like mid-bass (250Hz) boost, E12 doesn't have it.


 
  Thank you for the clarification.  I prefer more of a lower bass boost anyway. Also, +4.5dB is better than I thought.


----------



## Bill-P

Quote: 





clieos said:


> E12 can run for over 12hours on a single charge (tested it twice). Unless you actually do listen to it for the whole day, you don't really need to recharge it that often. You can just leave it charging overnight when you are at sleep.


 
   
  Yeah, I got 14 hours on the first run (~50% volume), too. But just to say... if I ever run out of battery (because I forgot to charge last night), then I can always use an external battery to charge while listening without significantly degrading sound quality. Plugging E12 directly into my MacBook or laptop (tested with a Vaio TZ) still creates unpleasant noise and distortion, so I think an external battery is about the only way to do it.
   
  Also, I may have to use E12 on a 18-hour flight a few months later (US to Asia), so... the longer I can go on battery, the better.
   
  Quote: 





rpgwizard said:


> Well you can simply also buy a USB power adapter and charge it from the wall socket (no noise then either). What I've done with my ZO amp, I keep it plugged in and only let it recharge every now and then for battery's sake.


 
   
  Actually, there is noise coming from the wall socket as well. I have tested that with the USB charger of my iPhone and also by plugging the Zagg Sparq directly into the wall socket.
   
  To be fair, even the Zagg Sparq is not completely noise-free. It has a very faint (undetectable) whine noise at high frequency. But that's a lot better than the noise generated by wall socket or from laptops. Those are very audible, and they also distorts very audibly.


----------



## Evshrug

Makes sense, I have been told a number of times how wall-outlets are usually prone to "noisy power," that's the reason there is a whole industry around power conditioning (particularly for audio/video). That's one more nice thing about using battery power most of the time.

On another note, I found out another Head-Fi'er lives near me, and sometime next week we're gonna have a mini-meet (lol) and we'll both have a listen to the E12 with a Q701, DT880, HD650, HE-400, and if I feel ok loaning my amp then he's got an LCD "that stays at home." I've always wanted to hear the "magic mids" of the HD650 and "incredible transparency" of the DT880! I'll append a write-up about our impressions to my review, which I think I'll finish this evening.


----------



## Craigster75

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Makes sense, I have been told a number of times how wall-outlets are usually prone to "noisy power," that's the reason there is a whole industry around power conditioning (particularly for audio/video). That's one more nice thing about using battery power most of the time.
> 
> On another note, I found out another Head-Fi'er lives near me, and sometime next week we're gonna have a mini-meet (lol) and we'll both have a listen to the E12 with a Q701, DT880, HD650, HE-400, and if I feel ok loaning my amp then he's got an LCD "that stays at home." I've always wanted to hear the "magic mids" of the HD650 and "incredible transparency" of the DT880! I'll append a write-up about our impressions to my review, which I think I'll finish this evening.


 

 Looking forward to your review.  Would you also be able to include comparisons to other portable amps?


----------



## mikeaj

So is the noise mostly a result of the ripple / noise on the +5V from whatever USB source, or is it from the E12's internal boost converter or whatever it's using to change the +5V into something high enough (e.g. 15V?) to charge the battery?  I wonder how much noise you'd get with a perfect 5V input.
   
  Not that this is exactly a scathing criticism, considering the extra costs, space (size), and weight of a less-noisy charging system.  I'd imagine many people would mainly use E12 with relatively high-impedance or insensitive headphones anyway.


----------



## Evshrug

craigster75 said:


> Looking forward to your review.  Would you also be able to include comparisons to other portable amps?



I'm making a stand-alone review first, but I don't have a "library" of other amps to compare to. I think first the amp should be judged by it's own merits, hopefully I can give info that you can "quantify" and then compare that to other "quantifiable" info from other amp reviews. To be honest, ClieOS will probably be able to compare against more amps directly than me, _but_ once I do my "Crazy Comparison" of amps (crazy because they're different types of amps & implementations, so more "for fun" than "strictly scientific" as I do not feel qualified for the latter), I will listen with my iPod's iPod-->L11 line-out with the E5, E12, my Tube Hybrid (modest-sized desktop amp), and my Yamaha receiver, and lastly the very unscientific (because we're changing too many variables here) impressions with the built-in amping from my Recon3D USB soundcard and my desktop computer's motherboard. That's a *wiiiide* range of very different "amping solutions," and again not particularly scientific, but hopefully it provides some insight and why I might prefer one over another. 

Spoiler alert: the Mont Blanc is much more agreeable than the built-in amps of my sources, and more portable than the desktops


----------



## Evshrug

mikeaj said:


> So is the noise mostly a result of the ripple / noise on the +5V from whatever USB source, or is it from the E12's internal boost converter or whatever it's using to change the +5V into something high enough (e.g. 15V?) to charge the battery?  I wonder how much noise you'd get with a perfect 5V input.
> 
> Not that this is exactly a scathing criticism, considering the extra costs, space (size), and weight of a less-noisy charging system.  I'd imagine many people would mainly use E12 with relatively high-impedance or insensitive headphones anyway.




I mainly use my E12 on battery power


----------



## mikeaj

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> I mainly use my E12 on battery power


 
   
  Some might even call that its intended purpose.  How could you ever do such a thing?  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Just curious if this can pretty much be considered a replacement for the E9, at least in performance.  E9 still has the native 1/4" jack and maybe more convenient form factor for desktop use, but E12 really seems like it encroaches on E9's territory and more or less matches it with its output power levels.  FiiO didn't bring out the big guns with LME49710 + LME49600 and the (relatively) huge honking battery for nothing, I hope.
   
  It's like carrying a portable E9 with a battery, except it has a crossfeed feature and lower output impedance?  For ~$30 more?


----------



## Evshrug

mikeaj said:


> ...
> It's like carrying a portable E9 with a battery, except it has a crossfeed feature and lower output impedance?  For ~$30 more?




That was my thinking when I jumped on the preorder! At least for performance, it matches your description, but remember it he E09k is basically something that is a good amp on it's own (very good for the price), but it's also meant to integrate with the DACs of the E07k and E17, so the E09k is more like part of a system that transforms from adequate for portable use (with amping from the E07k or E17) to a neat and tidy hi-fi headphone system at home using the E07k/E17 DAC combined with the desktop E09k amp. Can the E12 still be used with an external DAC? Certainly. Basically, FiiO offers the choice whether or not you need/would like all that power available portably.

It's nice using the E12 at bedtime ^_^


----------



## Dyaems

Quote:  





> It's like carrying a portable E9 with a battery


 
   
  like this one? xD
   

   
   
   
  and im jelly because you guys in the US can already get an E12 =(
   
  i hope when it arrives in our country 1-2 months from now, fiio hasnt changed its bass boost yet! if ever fiio will change it in the post production units!


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





gavinfabl said:


> Definitely has a DAC.


 
   
  Quote: 





pelli said:


> Because the new lightning cable offers no analog audio out.  It just sends a digital signal, so there needs to be a DAC chip in the cable to run it as an analog out.  That is why the lightning to 30-pin adapters are so damn expensive!


 
   
  How do you know this?


----------



## pekingduck

Quote: 





chris j said:


> How do you know this?


 
   
  http://www.chipworks.com/blog/recentteardowns/2012/10/18/inside-the-apple-lightning-to-30-pin-adapter/
   
  There's a Wolfson WM8533 DAC inside.


----------



## tortex73

Just got my E12!!!  So far so good, this is a really nice and classy piece of equipment. I was worried that the bass boost wasn't going to enough but I think the way it is implemented is beautiful- it adds a certain richness/lushness to the sound that makes it far more enjoyable to listen to, more musical even. My only complaint, and it's not really a complaint, is that it's a little on the large size. With my iPod classic velcro'd to it it's not very pocketable. Portable still, but not pocketable. Small price to pay for such great sound. Gonna have to give it some good listening time, which I plan to do with all the traveling I have coming up, but so far I am VERY happy with my purchase.


----------



## Craigster75

Quote: 





tortex73 said:


> Just got my E12!!!  So far so good, this is a really nice and classy piece of equipment. I was worried that the bass boost wasn't going to enough but I think the way it is implemented is beautiful- it adds a certain richness/lushness to the sound that makes it far more enjoyable to listen to, more musical even. My only complaint, and it's not really a complaint, is that it's a little on the large size. With my iPod classic velcro'd to it it's not very pocketable. Portable still, but not pocketable. Small price to pay for such great sound. Gonna have to give it some good listening time, which I plan to do with all the traveling I have coming up, but so far I am VERY happy with my purchase.


 

 Good feedback.  I have been focused on portable amps lately now that I am situated with headphones and the only portable amp I have found with more power is the Centrance M8 which offers charging, DAC and lots of bells and whistles, but is also *3X* the size of the E12 and *5X* the price.


----------



## tortex73

Quote: 





craigster75 said:


> Good feedback.  I have been focused on portable amps lately now that I am situated with headphones and the only portable amp I have found with more power is the Centrance M8 which offers charging, DAC and lots of bells and whistles, but is also *3X* the size of the E12 and *5X* the price.


 
  Honestly man, for the price of the E12, you'd be hard pressed to find a better sounding amp. Admittedly, I have only heard a few and I am relatively new to the audiophile world (I consider myself to be an enthusiast, not an audiophile), but I've been working in home and commercial audio for 15 years and I know what sounds good. The E12 definitely sounds good, and I am honestly blown away at just how good it sounds.  I just did an A/B between my iPhone 5 on its own and my iPod classic w/ the E12 and the difference in sound quality is staggering. The very first thing I noticed is the enhanced soundstage and imaging, followed by a warmth and sparkle that you just don't get out of the iPhone when listening direct. A lot of people here seem to steer clear of products with warm signatures, but I love them and I think the warmth brings out the musicality in... well, the music haha. Without the bass boost the sound is definitely more neutral but that boost just fills the sound out perfectly for me (I am NOT a basshead, keep in mind). Even my mother who thinks Sirius radio sounds good was able to hear the difference between the unamped iPhone 5 and my classic/E12 setup. I can't think of any purchase in recent memory that I was this happy with. $130 VERY well spent. Good show, Fiio.


----------



## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





tortex73 said:


> Just got my E12!!!  So far so good, this is a really nice and classy piece of equipment. I was worried that the bass boost wasn't going to enough but I think the way it is implemented is beautiful- it adds a certain richness/lushness to the sound that makes it far more enjoyable to listen to, more musical even. My only complaint, and it's not really a complaint, is that it's a little on the large size. With my iPod classic velcro'd to it it's not very pocketable. Portable still, but not pocketable. Small price to pay for such great sound. Gonna have to give it some good listening time, which I plan to do with all the traveling I have coming up, but so far I am VERY happy with my purchase.


 
   
  Thanks for sharing your feeling with us.
   
  One thing about the size, Mont Blanc should be still better than some portable headphone amp with 2 9V battery.


----------



## tortex73

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> Thanks for sharing your feeling with us.
> 
> One thing about the size, Mont Blanc should be still better than some portable headphone amp with 2 9V battery.


 
  Well like I said, it is a complaint but it's not a complaint. I'm just being nitpicky. If the battery life is what people are saying it is (which I have no reason to doubt), coupled with the beautiful sound quality, then the size of it is more than acceptable. You guys really made an amazing amp at an amazing value, and I thank you for that. Be proud, you guys definitely accomplished what you set out to do


----------



## TooPoor

Got mine tonight. Paired up with my HE-400s... awesome. Bass hits amazingly. Highs are a bit fatiguing, maybe that will fade with some break in? But this HP is known for fatiguing highs. The bass rumbles on most bass heavy songs (EDM). Has TONS of power. I dare say I enjoy it more than my Mangi/Modi stack at the moment. Going to grab a RCA to 3.5" chord tomorrow to use the Modi as a DAC with it just for S&G's. I'm a bit slow and am trying to figure out if I can use my E17 as a DAC with the E12 and Iphone (am I mistaken?)


----------



## tortex73

Quote: 





toopoor said:


> Got mine tonight. Paired up with my HE-400s... awesome. Bass hits amazingly. Highs are a bit fatiguing, maybe that will fade with some break in? But this HP is known for fatiguing highs. The bass rumbles on most bass heavy songs (EDM). Has TONS of power. I dare say I enjoy it more than my Mangi/Modi stack at the moment. Going to grab a RCA to 3.5" chord tomorrow to use the Modi as a DAC with it just for S&G's. I'm a bit slow and am trying to figure out if I can use my E17 as a DAC with the E12 and Iphone (am I mistaken?)


 
  Off topic, but how do you like those HE-400s? They are at the top of my short list for my next pair of cans. I really want a decent open pair, all I have right now for opens are AKG k240s and I am not happy with them at all. The HE-400, DT-990, HD-650, and SR-325i are what I'm considering, but probably gonna stay away from the Grados because I want to go circumaural.


----------



## TooPoor

I bought mine a bit ago, right when all the first 'must have' reviews were coming out. I haven't experienced too many headphones so take what I say with a grain of salt. I was looking for an open can that could do what my Denon D2000's did (EQ'd for euphoric subbass). I lucked out. They do exactly that, but we're comparing an open/ortho to a semi closed/dynamic, which one needs to keep in mind. EQ'd properly with decent power really works wonders for the HE400 in my opinion and the only other open set I've considered are the LCD2.2's, but for the time being I need new closed cans (Denons need a recable, maybe full Lawton mods in the future) so I just ordered some Ultrasone Signature Pros. Overall:
   
  Pros:
  - Bass - perfectly textured, can reach deep
  - Open - obviously, but I REALLY enjoy open cans
  - Gets better with more power, but sounds great out of almost anything
  - PRICE
   
  Cons:
  - Can be fatiguing
  - Clamp/Weight - this has been getting to me lately (killing the crown of my head, needs plusher headband)
  - Pleathers = No, Velours = much better, but stiff as can be. Still looking into new pads.
   
  Back on topic? Sorry for the hijack!


----------



## Craigster75

Quote: 





tortex73 said:


> Honestly man, for the price of the E12, you'd be hard pressed to find a better sounding amp. Admittedly, I have only heard a few and I am relatively new to the audiophile world (I consider myself to be an enthusiast, not an audiophile), but I've been working in home and commercial audio for 15 years and I know what sounds good. The E12 definitely sounds good, and I am honestly blown away at just how good it sounds.  I just did an A/B between my iPhone 5 on its own and my iPod classic w/ the E12 and the difference in sound quality is staggering. The very first thing I noticed is the enhanced soundstage and imaging, followed by a warmth and sparkle that you just don't get out of the iPhone when listening direct. A lot of people here seem to steer clear of products with warm signatures, but I love them and I think the warmth brings out the musicality in... well, the music haha. Without the bass boost the sound is definitely more neutral but that boost just fills the sound out perfectly for me (I am NOT a basshead, keep in mind). Even my mother who thinks Sirius radio sounds good was able to hear the difference between the unamped iPhone 5 and my classic/E12 setup. I can't think of any purchase in recent memory that I was this happy with. $130 VERY well spent. Good show, Fiio.


 

 I am close to purchasing based on your comments even without confirmation of a special bass-boosted edition.


----------



## tortex73

Quote: 





toopoor said:


> I bought mine a bit ago, right when all the first 'must have' reviews were coming out. I haven't experienced too many headphones so take what I say with a grain of salt. I was looking for an open can that could do what my Denon D2000's did (EQ'd for euphoric subbass). I lucked out. They do exactly that, but we're comparing an open/ortho to a semi closed/dynamic, which one needs to keep in mind. EQ'd properly with decent power really works wonders for the HE400 in my opinion and the only other open set I've considered are the LCD2.2's, but for the time being I need new closed cans (Denons need a recable, maybe full Lawton mods in the future) so I just ordered some Ultrasone Signature Pros. Overall:
> 
> Pros:
> - Bass - perfectly textured, can reach deep
> ...


 
  Cool, thanks for the feedback. I'm really thinking they're going to be my next set. I'm really psyched to get a pair of orthos. 
  Quote: 





craigster75 said:


> I am close to purchasing based on your comments even without confirmation of a special bass-boosted edition.


 
  I thought I would need the extra bass boost, but I was proved wrong. If it helps any, I'm pairing the amp with mainly my Sony Z1000 and listen to metal and stoner rock. I have been demoing the new setup with a lot of acoustic/clean stuff- AIC Unplugged, Mad Season's River of Deceit and Long Gone Day, G'N'R's Breakdown, Nevermore's Sorrowed Man, Kyuss' Space Cadet... I actually decided to give my cheapo AKG k240 a whirl right now and they're like a different headphone, I actually think I like them now haha. They still aren't nearly as detailed as I would like them to be but this E12 has made a world of a difference with them. I can't image anybody not being happy with this thing, still can't believe it's as cheap as it is.


----------



## jmsilva22

Man... I'm quite happy with the E11, but this new E12 is rustling my jimmies, specially since i'm getting the M100 real soon.
   
  Anybody that have both amps can post a couple of pics of the E12 next to the E11 for size comparison?


----------



## Evshrug

jmsilva22 said:


> Man... I'm quite happy with the E11, but this new E12 is rustling my jimmies, specially since i'm getting the M100 real soon.
> 
> Anybody that have both amps can post a couple of pics of the E12 next to the E11 for size comparison? :bigsmile_face:




I don't have an E11, but I did post side-by-side size comparisons of the E12 compared to the familiar size of an iPod (5th Gen). Just look in the thread's photos.


----------



## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





tortex73 said:


> Well like I said, it is a complaint but it's not a complaint. I'm just being nitpicky. If the battery life is what people are saying it is (which I have no reason to doubt), coupled with the beautiful sound quality, then the size of it is more than acceptable. You guys really made an amazing amp at an amazing value, and I thank you for that. Be proud, you guys definitely accomplished what you set out to do


 
   
  I known what you mean, just need to make sure what is the most important thing which our customer need. so what I try to known is, which should we put first when design a new amp, compact size, or power output or the battery life, it will help 
   
  us make a better amp in the future. so I am not try to defend ourself.


----------



## bowei006

jmsilva22 said:


> Man... I'm quite happy with the E11, but this new E12 is rustling my jimmies, specially since i'm getting the M100 real soon.
> 
> Anybody that have both amps can post a couple of pics of the E12 next to the E11 for size comparison? :bigsmile_face:



Sure




toopoor said:


> Got mine tonight. Paired up with my HE-400s... awesome. Bass hits amazingly. Highs are a bit fatiguing, maybe that will fade with some break in? But this HP is known for fatiguing highs. The bass rumbles on most bass heavy songs (EDM). Has TONS of power. I dare say I enjoy it more than my Mangi/Modi stack at the moment. Going to grab a RCA to 3.5" chord tomorrow to use the Modi as a DAC with it just for S&G's. I'm a bit slow and am trying to figure out if I can use my E17 as a DAC with the E12 and Iphone (am I mistaken?)




You need a powered usb hub in between iphone 4s (and previous) and E17 along with l7 dock.

It gets ugly for a portable setup


----------



## RichieE46

Got my E12 last week. I had the E11 for awhile and in terms of bass boost, I find the E12 to be more "refined". The one setting places the bass boost just enough to not drastically change the balance of sound. Overall I'm extremely happy with the build quality (Love the metal construction > the plastic). Matches well with my black iphone5.
   
  Only reason why I need to sell mine is because rent is due. =( Sigh to compulsive purchases that put me over budget.


----------



## joe it

Ediit
   
  Sorry Double post


----------



## joe it

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> Thanks for sharing your feeling with us.
> 
> One thing about the size, Mont Blanc should be still better than some portable headphone amp with 2 9V battery.


 
   
  Hi
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  it would Be possible to have  an option of low gain so that to be able to use the e12 with iem? 
   
  In this way there is a possibility of greater excursion pot volume avoiding problems; i think to decompensation channels and/or accidental movements that may damage iem and/or ear.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Thanks


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





joe it said:


> Hi
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  There already is one.
   
  There isn't any number lower than 0 for gain in terms of gaining.
   
  The E12 wasn't mean for IEM's.
   
  You can use them with it, but some may hiss, others may be too sensitive.
   
  E17 will work with more IEM's.
   
  Don't worry or worry less about that.
   
  The E12's volume pot was either designed or was by chance good already in that.
   
  It is extremely hard to turn the pot when you have only one finger trying to turn it. IT is a bit sticky during the lower turns but gets looser as you get up top.


----------



## xezi

Quote: 





toopoor said:


> -x-
> I dare say I enjoy it more than my Mangi/Modi stack at the moment.
> -x-


 
  wow... that's huge statement...


----------



## JamesFiiO

First, finally I changed my ID from feiao to JamesFiiO. and I can still keep all my posts in the past years.
   
  About the bass boost feature in Mont Blanc, we decide to change the design, as you can see , the current frequency response is as below
   
   

   
  The curve of the new bass boost will change to the red line
   
   

   
   
   
   
   
  it means the center frequency of the bass boost will move from 20Hz to 50Hz, compare with the bass boost in E11, the center frequency is about 70Hz.
   
  The reason that some people does not feel very good about the bass boost in Mont Blanc is because there are very few bass less than 50hz so the bass
   
  boost does not really help to enhance the bass in most song tracks.


----------



## bowei006

Congrats on the name change James! I hope to change mine without a change in custom title too.


----------



## TooPoor

Well I think it has to do with the bass boost. Yes, I EQ the M&M stack, but it still doesn't seem as 'fun'. I'm also quite new to the hobby so I've got a lot to learn.


----------



## tortex73

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> First, finally I changed my ID from feiao to JamesFiiO. and I can still keep all my posts in the past years.
> 
> About the bass boost feature in Mont Blanc, we decide to change the design, as you can see , the current frequency response is as below
> 
> ...


 
   
  When will the new ones be available for purchase? I just got my E12 yesterday and as much as I like the subtlety of the bass boost, I think I would prefer one of the new design. If it will be available soon then I would like to return the one I have.


----------



## Dyaems

noooooooooooooooooooo i wanna have the old boost!


----------



## bowei006

If you want an E12 and want current bass boost. Buy one now.

----
@james
Will you silk screen it a tiny bit different so that i can tell others what to look for if they want to know which version they bought?


----------



## Craigster75

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> First, finally I changed my ID from feiao to JamesFiiO. and I can still keep all my posts in the past years.
> 
> About the bass boost feature in Mont Blanc, we decide to change the design, as you can see , the current frequency response is as below
> 
> ...


 






  Thank you for listening.  I hope it translates into big sales volume for FiiO.  When will these be available?  How will we know if we are purchasing one of the revised bass units?  I will place my order as soon as it is available.


----------



## Koopa989

hmm...I have to admit that I was pretty turned off by the initial stats and impressions for the bass boost. this new announcement changes everything. 

I have a question about it not being 'meant for iem's'. so that means I should look elsewhere to upgrade from an e11 for my GR07's and my original Monster Miles Davis?


----------



## RoMee

Thank you JamesFiiO, I'm looking forward this new E12.


----------



## Bill-P

I'm actually glad I bought the E12 before the bass boost change.
   
  Boosting closer to E11 will bleed a bit into midrange (~450Hz), and I don't think that's acceptable. E12 is just borderlining on warm enough for me.


----------



## Dyaems

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> First, finally I changed my ID from feiao to JamesFiiO. and I can still keep all my posts in the past years.
> 
> About the bass boost feature in Mont Blanc, we decide to change the design, as you can see , the current frequency response is as below
> 
> ...


 
   
  are you going to change the gain and crossfeed switches as well?
   
  Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> If you want an E12 and want current bass boost. Buy one now.
> 
> ----
> @james
> Will you silk screen it a tiny bit different so that i can tell others what to look for if they want to know which version they bought?


 

 buy one and have it shipped here? no thanks 
   
  that would cost more than 120usd lol


----------



## Apo0th3karY

@JamesFiiO

I, like many, wasnt completely sold on the E12 at first because of the original bass boost... But now that I see the change in the FR graph I have a suggestion, I think having both bass boost options would be great for different genres, adding a bit of dynamic difference between the bass boosts, rather than a different quantity in bass boost. 

Otherwise, I'm not sure which id prefer given I listen to a fair amount of drum and bass and classic rock and metal, so, the new bass boost might be better for the latter but the original bass boost would be better for the former.


----------



## Evshrug

I'm hoping I'm awake enough to write my review, I said I would tonight, but I have to type it on my iPad instead of my computer at this hour...


----------



## Evshrug

Nope, feeling too tired for tonight. Instead, here is an older post of mine relaying some testing and impressions I wrote for Craigster, which will be incorporated into my review anyway:



evshrug said:


> I only know three of those artists, lol. I don't know if you have the track, and I don't LIKE the track, but Kanye West's "Gold Digger" is my go-to test for distortion (clipping?) and generally the mid-bass falling apart or holding together. With bass boost "ON," there is a little body and fullness added to the bottom end, but the sound holds together smoothly with ease. I pulled up Eminem's "Lose Yourself," just for you, though I like this song much more than the previous one, and with the boost, the bass drum that kicks in at 0:52 really does kick pretty well, yet it's easy to hear Marson's lyrics without any verbage close to "picking them out." The song "Without Me" already seems to have a good bit of bass on the flat mode, turning "on" bass boost brings that bass forward a bit. This is all with Q701 headphones and Mont Blanc set on 0 dB gain. I used to have V-MODA LP's, but there's plenty of bass in this current setup for me.
> 
> I took some more pictures for size comparison. People that use money clips instead of wallets need-not apply, but if you've ever had your phone and wallet in the same pocket – Hey that gives me an idea... Yup, my wallet is just as thick as Mont Blanc – then the amp + PMP ought to feel about the same. Here's the Mont Blanc next to my mom's phone & my iPod to show scale:
> 
> ...


----------



## Vlooienuker

How is this against the E17?


----------



## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





dyaems said:


> are you going to change the gain and crossfeed switches as well?


 
   
  Not, So far not plan to change the Gain and Crossfeed.


----------



## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





apo0th3kary said:


> @JamesFiiO
> 
> I, like many, wasnt completely sold on the E12 at first because of the original bass boost... But now that I see the change in the FR graph I have a suggestion, I think having both bass boost options would be great for different genres, adding a bit of dynamic difference between the bass boosts, rather than a different quantity in bass boost.
> 
> Otherwise, I'm not sure which id prefer given I listen to a fair amount of drum and bass and classic rock and metal, so, the new bass boost might be better for the latter but the original bass boost would be better for the former.


 
   
  Everyone can call me James.
   
  OK, can't keep the two option, there are not enough space to us to design two different bass boost inside the Mont Blanc , you will find the space is very limited .


----------



## Apo0th3karY

jamesfiio said:


> Everyone can call me James.
> 
> OK, can't keep the two option, there are not enough space to us to design two different bass boost inside the Mont Blanc , you will find the space is very limited .




fair enough, just thought I'd throw my two cents in. I do prefer the revised boost anyhow, just would be pretty novel to have both as an option.


----------



## Mach-X

Read the first 60 pages of this thread and had to fast forward through the rest. It just got too aggravating seeing the same questions/issues cropping up.
  First off, for the bass craving folks, stop using icrap to play your music. Not that ipods/iphones/ipads are bad, they are not they offer fine quality dacs and frequency response.
  What they don't offer is end user sound customization. It's like using all weather tires in the winter, it sort of works but isn't optimized for the power user.
  Spend $30 and get yourself a sansa clip+. And then add the rockbox firmware for the ultimate in audio customization. Linear DAC's are pennies on the dollar nowadays (contrary to what the folks at zanden audio would have you believe), and the sansa sandisk clip+ offers a fully linear dac equal to the ipod/itouch/iphone. As tested by nwavguy, as well as many others.
  What rockbox offers you is the ability to set a low 'shelf', in the digital domain, ie, one frequency where you want the boost to begin and no frequencies above that will be affected. And you can boost it up to 24 db. Naturally, it also allows you to set your precut to match that to avoid digital clipping. THEN allow the E12 to work its magic in the analog domain with its prodigious power output. Rockbox on the sansa clip even has user adjustable crossfeed settings as well as channel seperation settings. Honestly, a rockboxed sansa clip replaces $1000's of dollars in seperate components, for $30. And then you can let the prodigious power output of the E12 work its magic.


----------



## Apo0th3karY

Quote: 





mach-x said:


> Read the first 60 pages of this thread and had to fast forward through the rest. It just got too aggravating seeing the same questions/issues cropping up.
> First off, for the bass craving folks, stop using icrap to play your music. Not that ipods/iphones/ipads are bad, they are not they offer fine quality dacs and frequency response.
> What they don't offer is end user sound customization. It's like using all weather tires in the winter, it sort of works but isn't optimized for the power user.
> Spend $30 and get yourself a sansa clip+. And then add the rockbox firmware for the ultimate in audio customization. Linear DAC's are pennies on the dollar nowadays (contrary to what the folks at zanden audio would have you believe), and the sansa sandisk clip+ offers a fully linear dac equal to the ipod/itouch/iphone. As tested by nwavguy, as well as many others.
> What rockbox offers you is the ability to set a low 'shelf', in the digital domain, ie, one frequency where you want the boost to begin and no frequencies above that will be affected. And you can boost it up to 24 db. Naturally, it also allows you to set your precut to match that to avoid digital clipping. THEN allow the E12 to work its magic in the analog domain with its prodigious power output. Rockbox on the sansa clip even has user adjustable crossfeed settings as well as channel seperation settings. Honestly, a rockboxed sansa clip replaces $1000's of dollars in seperate components, for $30. And then you can let the prodigious power output of the E12 work its magic.


 
   
  I get your point, but that's not always the answer. Every user is different and your 'end user' customization differs from mine, and others. If it works for you, then great, but here people are looking for an option and asking questions based on their own end means, not to have a new (maybe) user come in and tell them their equipement is garbage; I'm sure many members here are well aware of the limitations (or not) of their DAP anyhow. I've considered a Sansa clip+, but my iPod Touch (with EQu app fopr music) has 1000x more functionality than just an mp3 player, so the Sansa Clip+ is not for me


----------



## Apo0th3karY

On another note.... If there's any current pre release E12s (which I'll now refer to as E12v1 which is by no means official, I'm just labelling them so I can better differentiate them) left by thursday, I'm probably gonna get myself one when I get paid, and when it gets full release with the new revised bass boost (which I'll refer to as E12v2)
   
  I mostly want to decide which of the versions' bass boost I would prefer. On paper, the E12v2 is what I want, but I'm thinking the E12v1 will be better for different reasons, so I'm going to try to get my hands on both.


----------



## bowei006

koopa989 said:


> hmm...I have to admit that I was pretty turned off by the initial stats and impressions for the bass boost. this new announcement changes everything.
> 
> I have a question about it not being 'meant for iem's'. so that means I should look elsewhere to upgrade from an e11 for my GR07's and my original Monster Miles Davis?




Its not that E12 has problems. Its that it may not get quiet enough and the turns are a bit sensitive. Heir audios work with the e12 but careful turning is needed

Im getting a loaner gr07 in a few days. Ill post in this thread to let you know


dyaems said:


> are you going to change the gain and crossfeed switches as well?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sorry, i though you were in u s


----------



## Chris J

dyaems said:


> noooooooooooooooooooo i wanna have the old boost!





+1 !


----------



## Craigster75

For anyone who wants the more modest bass boost, we fortunately have Head-fi to get the "scoop" on new gear and you have the perfect justification to buy a new amp today 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  As soon as James says Micca has the modified bass units in stock, I will be placing my order.  The lack of bass was the only thing holding me back.  For non-bassheads, I think the solution is fairly simple- just don't turn on bass boost.  For bassheads, if there is a bass boost, it needs to have real impact which I believe it will now offer based on the graph.  Short of a redesign to allow multiple bass settings, I believe the new bass boost EQ is as perfect a compromise as there could be if there is only one setting.  I can't wait to drive my 115 SPL Ultrasone Signature DJs with the bass enhanced E12.


----------



## Bill-P

Honestly, if you were somewhere close to me, I'd lend you my E12, and then you'd know why some people don't want the current bass boost to change.
   
  E12 with current bass boost on is head-rattling and headache inducing already.
   
  Then again, I guess not all of us have HE-400... or equivalence. And it's obvious some folks want to amp $100 headphones to match $300 headphones.
   
  Not to sound smug, of course, but I honestly think E12 coupled with a very bass-heavy can should be the way to go for bassheads... rather than having a different version of E12 that sacrifices bass and low mid quality just for more vibrations.
   
  Edit: and by the way, I can hear the current bass boost in every song. Especially with dubstep and liquid drum. I can't even find a single song in my library (500+ songs) that doesn't have more bass using the boost. It's really noticeable, I think, when the headphone can reproduce those frequencies.


----------



## bowei006

I wouldnt call the bass boost very nauseating. Depends on what hp you use it with and what your standards are. 

I personally dont use it much and only occasionally for testing or for edm


----------



## Bill-P

Same here. I don't use it much because my ears can't take all that pressure after 30 minutes. It's fun to test, but my headphones would probably deform my ears before long.
   
  I can fathom using it for something like the ATH-M50, though.


----------



## Evshrug

apo0th3kary said:


> I get your point, but that's not always the answer. Every user is different and your 'end user' customization differs from mine, and others. If it works for you, then great, but here people are looking for an option and asking questions based on their own end means, not to have a new (maybe) user come in and tell them their equipement is garbage; I'm sure many members here are well aware of the limitations (or not) of their DAP anyhow. I've considered a Sansa clip+, but my iPod Touch (with EQu app fopr music) has 1000x more functionality than just an mp3 player, so the Sansa Clip+ is not for me



Actually, I found his post to offer quite a few options for end-user customizations. And he's right about some other things too; many of the same questions have been repeated in this thread (as happens with almost any popular thread), ironically the answers get buried by the repeated questions. I also didn't see him call other DAPs garbage, just point out a powerful, low cost option. I don't know what a precut is (though I have heard digital clipping), but fine tuning your preferences via that solution, available for such a cheap price, is a helpful suggestion in general even if you don't have to make use of it, right?



bill-p said:


> Honestly, if you were somewhere close to me, I'd lend you my E12, and then you'd know why some people don't want the current bass boost to change.
> 
> E12 with current bass boost on is head-rattling and headache inducing already.
> 
> ...




I can't hear the boost in every song, at least not all the way through a song, but yeah I agree the bass boost is very good as is. I also have to take a break after 30 minutes with the boost on, they're a very fun 30 minutes but I need to cool down or my ears will hurt a bit. I have noticed that the people who own an E12 haven't found the bass response to be weak, and have been pleased by the tight band of tightly controlled sub-bass boost. The bass _impact/kick_ is very solid even without boosting it's volume, and never fat or soft of definition.

I think the tuning of the bass boost to be aimed exclusively at the "atmospheric" sub-bass region only is part of what makes this amp unique (priceower, power:size, and low THD are others), I'm still scratching my head about bassheads NOT owning something like your HE-400, a Beyerdynamic DT990, or one of the Phiathon (sic) headphones (and cutting the bass if they sometimes want less), *however* I do understand that others simply may want to go about it a different way.

Honestly... Here's an idea: Craigster75, if you want to pay shipping to borrow my E12 next week, I'll let you try it out for a while since you test things all the time and you're vocal enough that if you like it, I'm sure others' concerns will be allayed. PM me if interested?


----------



## Koopa989

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> Its not that E12 has problems. Its that it may not get quiet enough and the turns are a bit sensitive. Heir audios work with the e12 but careful turning is needed
> 
> Im getting a loaner gr07 in a few days. Ill post in this thread to let you know
> Sorry, i though you were in u s


 
   
  cool id love to hear your impressions.


----------



## campj

I'm glad I bought the E12 when I did. I listen to electro, psytrance, techno, d&b about half the time, and a variety of metal and acoustic the other half. The boost that's on there now sounds great with everything! It's tight, impactful, and detailed in everything I listen to.
   
  I thought I wouldn't like it as much with death metal due to how fast the drumming is, but when paired with my 325is, it sounds fantastic! The bass drum actually sounds like a bass drum and the bass guitar really stands out without becoming overpowering or unclear.
   
  All this being said, if I ONLY listened to electronica, I'd probably want more bass. With my music tastes being what they are, the E12 is a near-perfect travel amp.


----------



## Bill-P

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> I think the tuning of the bass boost to be aimed exclusively at the "atmospheric" sub-bass region only is part of what makes this amp unique (priceower, power:size, and low THD are others), I'm still scratching my head about bassheads NOT owning something like your HE-400, a Beyerdynamic DT990, or one of the Phiathon (sic) headphones (and cutting the bass if they sometimes want less), *however* I do understand that others simply may want to go about it a different way.


 
   
  I didn't mean to say I had a HE-400, but that I find it weird that anyone serious about bass doesn't already own one of those cans.
   
  And if they already did, I'd think overall sound refinement should be top priority.


----------



## Evshrug

Yeah, I'm glad I'm not the only one who finds matching headphone to your signature preference as the ideal way to "go about it." I actually get to audition an HE-400 next week and then for a longer period soon after that, I'm excited  I'll change my post to "an HE-400" instead of "your HE-400," if you want?

Another way to think of the current bass-boost (for everyone else to consider): it synergies well with almost any headphone or song, so you can just leave it on most of the time unless you get tired of it.
I've actually been enjoying the Crossfeed lately too, didn't think I'd care much but now I leave it on most the time to compensate for hard separation. Works OK with virtual surround processing in my games & movies too, I forgot I left it on.


----------



## Bill-P

Oh no, it's fine. Just wanted to clarify in case anyone gets confused about it in the future.
   
  I try not to mention gears that I don't have (or those that I don't own anymore) unless just for a quick harmless comparison.
   
  That's why I didn't title my thread "Fiio E12 vs JDS Labs O2".
   
  But then... I'm sure I'll see at least one O2 at the upcoming SF Bay Area meet, and maybe there'll be a writeup on that as well.
   
  However, there will surely be a writeup about how people like the E12 plus how other headphones pair with it. A meet is the perfect opportunity to get some good impressions.
   
  On that note, I'll make sure to document how people like the bass (plus bass boost) of the current E12. Maybe we'll have more of a consensus then.


----------



## jmsilva22

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> Sure


 
   
  Thanks!!!. Man, that sucker is huge compared to the e11
   






....im sorry to say this but I think I may pass on this one. C&C and JDS perhaps are better options (for me) in terms of upgrading sound and performance while maintaining a compact design.


----------



## Trae

Does anybody know any competitors to the E12, specs-wise? Pumping out 880mW into 32ohms with that size is really tempting, but I was just wondering if there is something else that has >/= power without breaking the bank.
   
  Also, this review may be of help to some people (C&C BH vs. E12)


----------



## Craigster75

Quote: 





trae said:


> Does anybody know any competitors to the E12, specs-wise? Pumping out 880mW into 32ohms with that size is really tempting, but I was just wondering if there is something else that has >/= power without breaking the bank.
> 
> Also, this review may be of help to some people (C&C BH vs. E12)


 

 FiiO is known for their value and the E12 is no exception.  Nothing can touch E12's power at its price point.  In contrast, my Vamp that listed for $650 is only 150mw/channel and I want to double amp with the E12 when I need the extra power.


----------



## TooPoor

As a preface: The consumption of alcohol can and will directly affect a multitude of senses, not limited to musical enjoyment and objectivity. That being said, I have opted to connect my E12 to my Schiit Modi via a ****ty Dynex RCA to 3.5mm" jack. Laptop->JRiver->Modi->E12->HE-400 = awesomeness. With the option of gain and bass boost, I have more control over the sound signature with the E12 over the Schiit Magni and it is awesome. Powerful, impactful bass with all the delightful benefits of ortho mids. Just wanted to share considering the popularity of both the Schiit stack and the HE-400s. Maybe I'm way off base, but I prefer a non neutral signature


----------



## GrahamL

Can anyone lucky enough to own an E12 comment on its susceptibility to *electromagnetic interference* when used in close proximity to a cellphone? Everything about the E12 sounds very impressive so far, but wonder if I might hear the dreaded di-dit di-dit di-dit if it's strapped to my iPhone 4s.
   
  Would be very grateful for any observations from owners 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Cheers,
   
  Graham


----------



## Apo0th3karY

I need some help with the Micca Store.... Do they ship outside of US, to say, Canada? I can't seem to choose anything except US for currency, or my country.


----------



## seeler

Quote: 





apo0th3kary said:


> I need some help with the Micca Store.... Do they ship outside of US, to say, Canada? I can't seem to choose anything except US for currency, or my country.


 
   
  I am in UK and asked them before.
  They only ship within US.


----------



## Apo0th3karY

Well ain't that bollox, eh?


----------



## Craigster75

Quote: 





grahaml said:


> Can anyone lucky enough to own an E12 comment on its susceptibility to *electromagnetic interference* when used in close proximity to a cellphone? Everything about the E12 sounds very impressive so far, but wonder if I might hear the dreaded di-dit di-dit di-dit if it's strapped to my iPhone 4s.
> 
> Would be very grateful for any observations from owners
> 
> ...


 

 This is an issue with most, if not all, portable amps.  I can usually pick it up if I am downloading over 3G with all 3 of the portable amps I own- IFuzen, Vamp and E11.  They all produce static when I am doing the exact same thing with my Iphone.  I have emailed other portable amp companies about this and they have informed me the only way to completely avoid this is to use a dedicated media player.  Fortunately, I have not heard interference while enjoying music so it is not a big issue.


----------



## GrahamL

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> Today when i get home. Ill attach the E12 to my 4S. And ill download some data over wifi and 4G hspa+ and 3G. And make and receive a few calls for you.
> 
> If nobody replies with an answer. Ill let you know by 4 est.
> Newcastle. No bollocks


 
   
  Thanks bowei006, that would be awesome, thank you very much. Any feedback when using 2G only would be appreciated if you find yourself without 3G and 4G, please - I find good old GSM produces the most interference in the other products I have that are susceptible to EMI, and unfortunately GSM is all I have at home.
   
   
  Quote: 





craigster75 said:


> This is an issue with most, if not all, portable amps.  I can usually pick it up if I am downloading over 3G with all 3 of the portable amps I own- IFuzen, Vamp and E11.  They all produce static when I am doing the exact same thing with my Iphone.  I have emailed other portable amp companies about this and they have informed me the only way to completely avoid this is to use a dedicated media player.  Fortunately, I have not heard interference while enjoying music so it is not a big issue.


 
   
  Thanks Craigster75, that's appreciated... I realise I'm probably expecting too much and I'm glad it isn't too much of an issue in real life with your amps. Some of the amps in ClieOS's <$100 and <$200 amp shootouts score top marks for EMI resistance so I thought I'd try and find out how the E12 fares in this regard and whether it really is too good to be true 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
   
  Cheers both,
   
  Graham


----------



## bowei006

I'm in USA East Coast.
   
  ATT GSM service
   
  Every region, country, provider, data uses different bands and frequencies so what I get in my country may be differnet for UK or Malaysia or etc etc.
   
  I'm about to start the test


----------



## Evshrug

It's a useful test cuz, you know, you might be next to someone using the phone, or... you might be using 3G to check Head-Fi updates


----------



## bowei006

Just tested with outgoing phone call with duration of 3 min with soft music on and no music. Using Heir Audio 4ai and E12

Nothing detected.

I had to leave the house. Ill do the rest later. 

My iphone was places on top of and taken off the pmp combo unit. I was not playing music with 4s but had it right on top of e12 while lifting it away.


----------



## FortisFlyer75

Couple of questions for the owners here, firstly I have a friend that has an E12 but only get to chat via phone with him due to distance so do not get to hook up to often thus have not heard the E12 yet for myself.  His E12 (which he likes the SQ of a lot)  is having a buzzing sound occur in the left channel only and is not to do with the bass boost feature and happens whether anything is connected to amp or not and this is just on battery power.
The buzzing has gradually got slightly worse in sound elevation meaning it is obvious to hear when listening to music.  Has anyone else had this happen with their E12 or know what could be causing it at all? 
   
  Secondly is anyone using these with 400 or 600 ohm can's at all and if it drives them with good authority?
   
  Oh, lastly is there anyone who can compare how this sounds to a TTVJ Slim if they have one.   
   
  Thanks in advance.....


----------



## jmsilva22

*I think the definition of "portable" depends on the user*. For me, the E12 is too big and I don't consider it portable enough for my needs. Specially since I use my rig everywhere, even at the gym.
   
  I can't understand why some people here have a problem with that. It has nothing to do with the amp's performance. Pant pockets? I don't know. What if your pants have small pockets and the amp doesn't fit. So then is not portable?
   
  Other folks here carry around *HUGE* setups that are definitely not portable for the average user and others don't like to use portable amps at all no matter the size.


----------



## Dyaems

Quote: 





apo0th3kary said:


> Well ain't that bollox, eh?


 

 not really, if you dont mind the shipping costs, have someone you trust in this forum who lives in the US to buy for you and have it sent to your place =)


----------



## Dyaems

Quote: 





fortisflyer75 said:


> Couple of questions for the owners here, firstly I have a friend that has an E12 but only get to chat via phone with him due to distance so do not get to hook up to often thus have not heard the E12 yet for myself.  His E12 (which he likes the SQ of a lot)  is having a buzzing sound occur in the left channel only and is not to do with the bass boost feature and happens whether anything is connected to amp or not and this is just on battery power.
> The buzzing has gradually got slightly worse in sound elevation meaning it is obvious to hear when listening to music.  Has anyone else had this happen with their E12 or know what could be causing it at all?
> 
> Secondly is anyone using these with 400 or 600 ohm can's at all and if it drives them with good authority?
> ...


 
   
  with that kind of power output, i think it can drive 600ohms *better check page 1 if there are info about it*
   
  edit: it says it can only do up to 300 ohms on the first page haha


----------



## Chris J

dyaems said:


> with that kind of power output, i think it can drive 600ohms *better check page 1 if there are info about it*
> 
> edit: it says it can only do up to 300 ohms on the first page haha




The Monty should have more than enough output to drive just about any 600 Ohm headphones without any troubles.


----------



## bowei006

ATT U.S East Coast
   
  Music playing with low to no volume with amp on while turning up to a higher volume.
   
  Tested with calling outgoing only 
   
  Tested downloading with 2.4GHz Wireless N and 4G 
   
  Calling outgoing had no noise
   
  Downloading over 2.4GHz N had noise and crackle. 4G had none.


----------



## Apo0th3karY

Quote: 





dyaems said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  lol I was trying to be clever by using local slangs of Canada and UK, but instead I get helpful tips. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



 
   
  I had someone message me to sell their E12v1, but I haven't gotten a response. I don't quite know anyone on here enough to have that kind of trust, unless they have the trader feedback to show it, of course.


----------



## Evshrug

FortisFlyer,
Who is your friend? Few people have the E12 yet, he might've been on this thread or on the Facebook pre-order. I'd troubleshoot with him if he comes by, but as of now my E12 is very reliably consistent and I can't reproduce the buzz you're describing him having (3rd degree troubleshooting, Bleh). Not even with my AD700, though I have yet to try with my Etymotic ER-6I (which may get too loud). Maybe he needs the amp looked at, but he should exhaust all other possibilities like problems with the headphone or the plug not being all the way in, or something. Good luck to him.

Chris J,
I probably wouldn't even have blocked him if I hadn't already had my fill of pointless negativity in an argument I'd had with my mom yesterday. Sometimes people who are rough around the edges still have a point... but this same guy is back with the same minor inconvenience, and worse acting like some sort of victim of conspiracy. He's not someone I have to give psychiatric help to, and I really don't care what he thinks at this point. Voilá, blocked.


----------



## Craigster75

Would someone with mid-fi or summit-fi headphones be able to compare SQ of the E12 using LOD vs. headphone jack?  If I am using the headphone jack as the output, what is the optimal volume level?


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





craigster75 said:


> Would someone with mid-fi or summit-fi headphones be able to compare SQ of the E12 using LOD vs. headphone jack?  If I am using the headphone jack as the output, what is the optimal volume level?


 
  My equipment I currently have access to is in my sig.
   
  My DAP's I can use are:
  iPod Touch 2G
  iPhone 4S
   
  I have L9 and L11.
   
  I can do a few tests.


----------



## Craigster75

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> My equipment I currently have access to is in my sig.
> 
> My DAP's I can use are:
> iPod Touch 2G
> ...


 

 Much appreciated and thanks for your feedback on the interference.


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





craigster75 said:


> Much appreciated and thanks for your feedback on the interference.


 
  Sure
   
  I will be receiving or have already received these:
  Heir Audio 4ai
  Heir Audio 3ai
  Heir Audio Tzar 350
  Heir Audio Tzar 90
   
  Will receive
  GR07
  LCD-2  (very short headroom demo)
   
   
  But I only have those Heirs and Q701 as anything you would care for in the difference.


----------



## Craigster75

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> Sure
> 
> I will be receiving or have already received these:
> Heir Audio 4ai
> ...


 

 Q701 would be great.


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





craigster75 said:


> Q701 would be great.


 
   
  Ok
   
   
  iPod Touch 2G + L9 LOD +FiiO E12 --> Q701
   
  iPod Touch 2G +3.5mm interconnect cable +E12 --> Q701
   
  is what I guess you mean.


----------



## bowei006

Impressions:
   
  With the LOD, instruments are more seperated with more space for the vocals. With direct headphone out with my 2G, the entire sound spectrum was a bit scrunched up. The highs with LOD are noticeably clearer and smoother. There is some gritty unsmoothness with the headphone out while the LOD makes it quite smooth
   
  Both sound good. Really. The LOD just improves on things. 
   
  Better seperation, and better at smoothing out things.
   
  Keep in mind I am not doing just iPod Touch 2G vs E12 but LOD vs headphone out which is what I think you are asking.


----------



## pngwn

Just got my E12 in the mail. Whoever said their unit smelled like gasoline or fuel was right :/ Only started listening to it for a few minutes now, so I'll post more impressions later. Regarding size, at least, I'd consider it too big for me to carry around with me. Especially since I have the much smaller and roughly on par C&C BH. I really love the build quality of the Mont Blanc, though, very sleek and sexy; just a tad long for my portability tastes.

I love how sturdy the E12 feels. Very nice volume knob, a bit too stiff to turn with one finger, but at least it won't accidentally slip like the BH's knob has been for me (ow...) Listening through an AD900X, btw.


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





pngwn said:


> Just got my E12 in the mail. Whoever said their unit smelled like gasoline or fuel was right :/ Only started listening to it for a few minutes now, so I'll post more impressions later. Regarding size, at least, I'd consider it too big for me to carry around with me. Especially since I have the much smaller and roughly on par C&C BH. I really love the build quality of the Mont Blanc, though, very sleek and sexy; just a tad long for my portability tastes.
> 
> I love how sturdy the E12 feels. Very nice volume knob, a bit too stiff to turn with one finger, but at least it won't accidentally slip like the BH's knob has been for me (ow...) Listening through an AD900X, btw.


 
  Maybe there was some fuel based material in the container next to theirs
   
  What website/distro company did you buy it off of?


----------



## pngwn

I bought it off of Micca, shipped out from Virginia. They're the only place to buy the E12 from anyway, though, right? Ordered on Saturday and just got it today. It's not a big deal, it's only really (really) noticeable if you smell the cloth bag.


----------



## pngwn

Doubleposted


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





pngwn said:


> I bought it off of Micca, shipped out from Virginia. They're the only place to buy the E12 from anyway, though, right? Ordered on Saturday and just got it today. It's not a big deal, it's only really (really) noticeable if you smell the cloth bag.


 
  Mine smells like highly processed cloth/leather which does have a bit of a fuel smell by default
   
  Mine was shipped directly form FiiO. So something may have came into contact with it mid route. 
   
  Hope it comes out.


----------



## GrahamL

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> Just tested with outgoing phone call with duration of 3 min with soft music on and no music. Using Heir Audio 4ai and E12
> 
> Nothing detected.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> ATT U.S East Coast
> 
> Music playing with low to no volume with amp on while turning up to a higher volume.
> 
> ...


 
   





  Thank you for the tests!
   
  Seems like the E12 fared quite well except with the Wi-fi test. All good information for prospective purchasers, thanks again.
   
   
  Graham


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





grahaml said:


> Thank you for the tests!
> 
> Seems like the E12 fared quite well except with the Wi-fi test. All good information for prospective purchasers, thanks again.
> 
> ...


 
  Wifi is what caused the crackling actually


----------



## Techno Kid

That happened with my E11 when my phone was on WiFi it would have some cracking but I haven't noticed any with the C&C BH though I haven't used it with my phone much at all.


----------



## pngwn

Quote: 





techno kid said:


> That happened with my E11 when my phone was on WiFi it would have some cracking but I haven't noticed any with the C&C BH though I haven't used it with my phone much at all.


 
   
  Weird, I've had the exact opposite experience with my BH and E12. No crackling from my E12 while in close proximity to my phone, but as soon as I plugged the BH in, I got really annoyed by the crackling really fast.


----------



## Craigster75

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> Impressions:
> 
> With the LOD, instruments are more seperated with more space for the vocals. With direct headphone out with my 2G, the entire sound spectrum was a bit scrunched up. The highs with LOD are noticeably clearer and smoother. There is some gritty unsmoothness with the headphone out while the LOD makes it quite smooth
> 
> ...


 

 Thank you for confirming my concerns.  I have Vamp hooked up to my Iphone 4, so I can't access my LOD, but I can use the headphone out on Vamp which should be decent considering it bypasses the on-board Iphone in favor of its superior DAC and amp.  Vamp sounds great, but is only 150mw/channel so sometimes there's just not enough juice which is why I want to add the E12.


----------



## Bill-P

I've noticed that my E12 gives a slight noise when I turn up or down the volume.
   
  It's not very noticeable in certain busy songs, but it's definitely noticeable in quiet songs.
   
  Does this happen to anyone else?


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





bill-p said:


> I've noticed that my E12 gives a slight noise when I turn up or down the volume.
> 
> It's not very noticeable in certain busy songs, but it's definitely noticeable in quiet songs.
> 
> Does this happen to anyone else?


 
  This may be due to what headphones.
   
  I just tried it on my harder to drive headphones and nope. No noise.
   
  This probably means you are using headphones that are easy to drive or are just low impedence.


----------



## Bill-P

No, it's not the headphone. I've plugged the same setup into my phones and PlayStation Vita without that buzzing noise.
   
  I can only hear it when I plug the amp into something that's connected to a wall socket (laptop or charging media player). Ground noise, maybe?


----------



## bowei006

Yep that is the problem

It has been went over. There will be a buzz if you have your E12 plugged into a wall socket to charge


----------



## Bill-P

It wasn't the E12 that was plugged in, though. It was the source that was plugged in.


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





bill-p said:


> It wasn't the E12 that was plugged in, though. It was the source that was plugged in.


 
  Please explain
   
  Was the source pmp plugged into a wall socket or something or was it plugged into the E12?
   
  What is the source.
   
  Having something plugged into a computer could produce the noise.


----------



## Bill-P

The source PMP was plugged into the wall (I was charging it), and then E12 was plugged into the source. That was when I first noticed the buzzing noise.
   
  Afterward, I tried to replicate it, and it was apparent with my MacBook plus Vaio laptop as well. If the laptops were running on battery, then there was no buzzing noise. But if the laptops were plugged into the wall charger, then adjusting the volume knob would produce the buzzing noise.
   
  It's not a deal-breaker or anything of the sort. Just an observation.


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





bill-p said:


> The source PMP was plugged into the wall (I was charging it), and then E12 was plugged into the source. That was when I first noticed the buzzing noise.
> 
> Afterward, I tried to replicate it, and it was apparent with my MacBook plus Vaio laptop as well. If the laptops were running on battery, then there was no buzzing noise. But if the laptops were plugged into the wall charger, then adjusting the volume knob would produce the buzzing noise.
> 
> It's not a deal-breaker or anything of the sort. Just an observation.


 
  I was about to be cofused until I remembered that the E12 is an amp.
   
  I have my Andes and Alpen thinking cap on.
   
  Yes. This is an amp. Computers will sometimes get a buzz when charging, and because the E12 is an amp and not a DAC. It will amplifiy and have that sound as well.
   
  Charging devices will often have this song.
   
  Are you using an external DAC or direct hp out of mbp and vaio?


----------



## Bill-P

Direct headphone out.
   
  But it's not like there's ground noise from the charger. If that was the case, the noise would get louder as I increase volume.
   
  But I only hear that noise when adjusting the volume knob.
   
  It's weird... but oh well. At least that's better than ground noise that's constantly on. In fact, E12 plugged into my laptops is dead quiet. Other amps (E11 notably) would amplify the ground noise and I'd hear it all throughout until I unplug the charger (of the laptop).


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





bill-p said:


> Direct headphone out.
> 
> But it's not like there's ground noise from the charger. If that was the case, the noise would get louder as I increase volume.
> 
> ...


 
  That may be it
   
  I have not noticed buzzing from hp out with my MBP as Mac's are generally very good with that.
   
  The E12 is of course amplifying the signal.
   
  Only when adjusting? So if you don't touch the knob, the sound disapears but then comes back when you move it again?


----------



## Bill-P

Actually, it's not there when I "touch" the knob. It's only when I "turn" the knob that I can hear it. It's very tinny, too. I can't hear it in most of my music... except for classical music when the room just suddenly dies off (completely) and I'm left with absolute silence.
   
  If anything, I noticed it when it was midnight... and everyone was asleep. The ambient noise here right now according to my meter is approximately 32dB... so you can pretty much imagine how quiet it is at night.
   
  And it's not there when the computer is not plugged in. Which is weird. I have tried different plugs, and even went to Starbucks a little while ago to test. It was just the plug.
   
  It happens with my iPod Video, MacBook Pro (the Retina model), and my Vaio TZ, so I don't think it's the device.
   
  Funny enough it doesn't happen to my phones (Galaxy S3 and iPhone 5).


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





bill-p said:


> Actually, it's not there when I "touch" the knob. It's only when I "turn" the knob that I can hear it. It's very tinny, too. I can't hear it in most of my music... except for classical music when the room just suddenly dies off (completely) and I'm left with absolute silence.
> 
> If anything, I noticed it when it was midnight... and everyone was asleep. The ambient noise here right now according to my meter is approximately 32dB... so you can pretty much imagine how quiet it is at night.
> 
> ...


 
  What plug? The electrical plug?
   
  Weird situation you have there. What do you deduce is causing it? The charger? E12? or something.


----------



## Bill-P

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> What plug? The electrical plug?
> 
> Weird situation you have there. What do you deduce is causing it? The charger? E12? or something.


 
   
  I have no idea. And to be honest, it's pretty sporadic. There are times when I hear it, and there are times when I don't.


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> Yep that is the problem
> 
> It has been went over. There will be a buzz if you have your E12 plugged into a wall socket to charge


 
   
  Exactly how bad is it? Only audible with IEMs or sensitive headphones? This may be a dealbreaker for me. Why does E12 buzz and other amps not (maybe not all but a greal deal of amps anyway)? Shouldn't that noise be filtered out if so, can't be that expensive...


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





rpgwizard said:


> Exactly how bad is it? Only audible with IEMs or sensitive headphones? This may be a dealbreaker for me. Why does E12 buzz and other amps not (maybe not all but a greal deal of amps anyway)? Shouldn't that noise be filtered out if so, can't be that expensive...


 
  It isn't loud but it is there. Especially for IEM users and sensitive ones. For AKG Q701, it can be tolerated as you listen louder.
   
  FiiO held a vote. 
   
  Better SQ with less cost but no charge while use
   
  or
   
  slightly lesser SQ with more cost but chage while use but with some nit picks
   
  The second one won by a land slide. FiiO let us choose what we wanted.
   
  There just isnt room to fix this in the E12 it seems or would raise cost a lot or reduce sound


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

OK I had opted for better SQ + higher cost due to filtering personally


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





rpgwizard said:


> OK I had opted for better SQ + higher cost due to filtering personally


 
  The higher SQ but no charge while use version would have actually cost less if I remember correctly.


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> The higher SQ but no charge while use version would have actually cost less if I remember correctly.


 
   
  So why wasn't that opted for then, if it will buzz while charge, then that's no better than no playing while charging, for me it's the same. Nevermind about buzzing heard while playing, I wouldn't tolerate it while no music is playing. 
   
  But yea E12 is a portable amp and I'm looking for desktop use, it's just desktop amps have less performance/price ratio and doesn't typically feature any bass boost why I tend to look at portable amps.


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





rpgwizard said:


> So why wasn't that opted for then, if it will buzz while charge, then that's no better than no playing while charging, for me it's the same. Nevermind about buzzing heard while playing, I wouldn't tolerate it while no music is playing.
> 
> But yea E12 is a portable amp and I'm looking for desktop use, it's just desktop amps have less performance/price ratio and doesn't typically feature any bass boost.


 
  Democratic vote
   
  FiiO likes to listen to their fans. A huge vote happened. I was fine with either high quality but lower price version with no charge or current version but I went with the current version as many would rather change.
   
  No buzz while playing music.


----------



## Bill-P

It's not a buzz per se. It's more like a very tinny distortion (it does slightly distort sound).
   
  And I think I noted a while ago that using an external battery (that you use to charge your smartphone) would also eliminate all of that noise/distortion.
   
  E12 + Zagg Sparq = about 40 extra hours on top of the 12 hours I had previously from what I can see. That's as much as I can ask.


----------



## RsIV

I am a new headfi'er that just got an E12 and wanted to add my first impressions and comparison to E11 on this thread, but it was too long and seemed off-topic for what is being discussed now.  If you are interested, here is the link:
   
http://www.head-fi.org/t/650293/fiio-e12-mont-blanc-first-impression-and-e11-comparison
   
  I've gotten a great deal of helpful information on these forums and wanted to start contributing.  Any posting advice you may have for me is welcomed, and I hope someone can benefit from my input.
   
  (Sorry if it is impolite to post a link to my thread on this similar one - I am new to forum posting and still learning the ropes.  Thanks.)


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





rsiv said:


> I am a new headfi'er that just got an E12 and wanted to add my first impressions and comparison to E11 on this thread, but it was too long and seemed off-topic for what is being discussed now.  If you are interested, here is the link:
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/650293/fiio-e12-mont-blanc-first-impression-and-e11-comparison
> 
> ...


 
  "Welcome to Head-Fi! Sorry about your wallet"
   
  Welcome RsIV. It is not impolite to post a link to another thread that deals with the same topic. Post away 
   
  Posting advice? Nothing really. You just can't link to a banned member's site, post etc etc. This mainly only applies to he who shall not be named.


----------



## gavinfabl

I cant believe this thread has got so much longer in just a few days. 

I also cant believe a new design is being prepared with a different bass boost. Seriously, when the music has the grunt, the E12 grunts big time without ruining the song. The E11 has bass boost but not to my liking, too dark sounding. 

I just put down the bass attack to all that power providing control, effortless control. And thats with a bass light HD558. 

If the redesign does occur, I reckon the first ones will be a collectors item as they will have a pure audiophile sound. Be prepared to pay big bucks for version 1. 

And just in case anyone was wondering if mine is for sale, it most definitely is not!

I still feel as excited with my E12 as I did the first day I heard it!!!


----------



## Apo0th3karY

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> Posting advice? Nothing really. You just can't link to a banned member's site, post etc etc. This mainly only applies to he who shall not be named.


 
   
  I read "a band members' site... he who shall not be named" and was thinking "Why not? Aren't we music lovers? Who is this amazing musician we cannot speak of?"
   
  I'm THAT tired.


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





apo0th3kary said:


> I read "a band members' site... he who shall not be named" and was thinking "Why not? Aren't we music lovers? Who is this amazing musician we cannot speak of?"
> 
> I'm THAT tired.


 
  Lol
   
  Who is this amazing man we cannot speak of!??
   
  His stuff is featrured and used quite prominantely here on HF.


----------



## Apo0th3karY

Yeah I think I know who it is.
  We're talking Objective guy right?


----------



## bowei006

Yes, he who shall not be named.


----------



## Apo0th3karY

Indeed. I tried to be vague


----------



## RsIV

Cool - Thanks!  Yeah, my wallet is already taking a crunch, and my Fiancee thinks I'm kinda nuts, but I love and listen to every pair I own. Looking forward to being a headfi contributor instead of lurker, and I appreciate the welcome.


----------



## RsIV

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> "Welcome to Head-Fi! Sorry about your wallet"
> 
> Welcome RsIV. It is not impolite to post a link to another thread that deals with the same topic. Post away
> 
> Posting advice? Nothing really. You just can't link to a banned member's site, post etc etc. This mainly only applies to he who shall not be named.


 
  ...my previous post was in reply to this - forgot to include quote...


----------



## Evshrug

rsiv said:


> I am a new headfi'er that just got an E12 and wanted to add my first impressions and comparison to E11 on this thread, but it was too long and seemed off-topic for what is being discussed now.  If you are interested, here is the link:
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/650293/fiio-e12-mont-blanc-first-impression-and-e11-comparison
> 
> ...




I don't mind at all either, in fact I think it helps refocus the thread. This thread will be a better resource with reviews and review links sprouting off from it


----------



## gavinfabl

If I recall correctly the first reviews were around page 38. Also on the headgear there is my review as well if this helps people.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





bill-p said:


> But it's not like there's ground noise from the charger. If that was the case, the noise would get louder as I increase volume.


 
   
  Noise from a charger or a ground loop would not necessarily be louder when volume is increased.
   
  If the noise broke into the amplifier stage, then turning the volume up and down would affect the noise level.
   
  Quote: 





rsiv said:


> I am a new headfi'er that just got an E12 and wanted to add my first impressions and comparison to E11 on this thread, but it was too long and seemed off-topic for what is being discussed now.  If you are interested, here is the link:
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/650293/fiio-e12-mont-blanc-first-impression-and-e11-comparison
> 
> ...


 
   
  Hey, it's not off topic.
  Feel free to post it here!


----------



## RsIV

Thanks everyone for the advice and feedback. 
   
  Now I have a question for those that own the E12, please: I just noticed yesterday that when I turn it on, there is no sound for several seconds, then there is a loud clicking/popping noise inside the housing of the device, and then the sound comes on. The blue power light comes on immediately, but this delay in the sound starting and the noise that happens when it does worries me.  It also makes the same sound several seconds after I turn it off.  I feel like it wasn't doing this when I first got it, but I suppose there's a chance I just didn't notice it. If anyone can confirm if this is normal or not, I would really appreciate it.


----------



## campj

I get the same thing and it has been occurring since I got it. I think it's normal.


----------



## Chris J

rsiv said:


> Thanks everyone for the advice and feedback.
> 
> Now I have a question for those that own the E12, please: I just noticed yesterday that when I turn it on, there is no sound for several seconds, then there is a loud clicking/popping noise inside the housing of the device, and then the sound comes on. The blue power light comes on immediately, but this delay in the sound starting and the noise that happens when it does worries me.  It also makes the same sound several seconds after I turn it off.  I feel like it wasn't doing this when I first got it, but I suppose there's a chance I just didn't notice it. If anyone can confirm if this is normal or not, I would really appreciate it.





I guess you are hearing this without headphones on?
Might be an output protection relay.

OTOH,
It's good practice to turn any headphone amp On, then plug in your phones.
Unplug your 'phones, then turn the amp Off.


----------



## bowei006

rsiv said:


> Thanks everyone for the advice and feedback.
> 
> Now I have a question for those that own the E12, please: I just noticed yesterday that when I turn it on, there is no sound for several seconds, then there is a loud clicking/popping noise inside the housing of the device, and then the sound comes on. The blue power light comes on immediately, but this delay in the sound starting and the noise that happens when it does worries me.  It also makes the same sound several seconds after I turn it off.  I feel like it wasn't doing this when I first got it, but I suppose there's a chance I just didn't notice it. If anyone can confirm if this is normal or not, I would really appreciate it.


Its normal. Its a relay. It protects IEMs from a huge influx in power.


----------



## jiminy

Sorry to bring up bass boost again, everything that I have read by people that own it has been positive and now it is being changed. 
Am I right in thinking that the new setup is likely to sound flabby compared to the original. I like bass to be impactful and by looking at the new graph it has brought more off it. My denons don't need bass boost but my fostex t50rp would probably benefit from a bit.


----------



## bowei006

Bass boost is just bass boost. Its an option. Default will still be the same.


----------



## Bill-P

chris j said:


> Noise from a charger or a ground loop would not necessarily be louder when volume is increased.
> 
> If the noise broke into the amplifier stage, then turning the volume up and down would affect the noise level.


 
   
  Actually, I was able to hear that noise last night again. This time with my iPhone, and no charger connected.
   
  So I'm starting to think it may not be related to the charger at all. Could be a ground loop like you say.
   

  Quote: 





jiminy said:


> Sorry to bring up bass boost again, everything that I have read by people that own it has been positive and now it is being changed.
> Am I right in thinking that the new setup is likely to sound flabby compared to the original. I like bass to be impactful and by looking at the new graph it has brought more off it. My denons don't need bass boost but my fostex t50rp would probably benefit from a bit.


 
   
  From what I'm hearing, boosting bass of higher frequencies will make E12 overly warm and boomy (like the C421). I don't like it, as it bleeds into lower midrange frequencies and makes midrange sound nasal/congested, but maybe it'll help with very thin/cold headphones.


----------



## RsIV

Quote: 





campj said:


> I get the same thing and it has been occurring since I got it. I think it's normal.


 
  Awesome.  That eases my mind.  Thanks!
  Quote: 





chris j said:


> I guess you are hearing this without headphones on?
> Might be an output protection relay.
> 
> OTOH,
> ...


 
  Yes, the noise I am referring to is within the amp itself, not coming through the headphones.  -- Thanks - yeah, I learned that the hard way with my first cMoy, lol.
  Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> Its normal. Its a relay. It protects IEMs from a huge influx in power.


 
  Great.  That is good to know.  Thanks very much.


----------



## gavinfabl

jiminy said:


> Sorry to bring up bass boost again, everything that I have read by people that own it has been positive and now it is being changed.
> Am I right in thinking that the new setup is likely to sound flabby compared to the original. I like bass to be impactful and by looking at the new graph it has brought more off it. My denons don't need bass boost but my fostex t50rp would probably benefit from a bit.




I for one think the current bass implementation is what makes the E12 not only special but different too. 

I wouldn't want it changed like the E11.


----------



## campj

How do I know when the E12 is charged fully? Will it hurt the battery to keep it plugged in indefinitely? Thanks.


----------



## RsIV

campj said:


> How do I know when the E12 is charged fully? Will it hurt the battery to keep it plugged in indefinitely? Thanks.




It is fully charged when the charging light stops blinking and stays solid red. If I understood the Fiio website info correctly, it is ok to leave it plugged in indefinitely.


----------



## pngwn

rsiv said:


> campj said:
> 
> 
> > How do I know when the E12 is charged fully? Will it hurt the battery to keep it plugged in indefinitely? Thanks.
> ...


From what I understand as well, the E12 has smart charging, meaning indefinite plug in time won't hurt it.


----------



## bowei006

That defeats the purpose of a portable amp however


----------



## pngwn

bowei006 said:


> That defeats the purpose of a portable amp however


How does it affect the E12's portability at all? The battery still lasts about 17 hours. The smart charging just means you can stick it on the charge when you go to bed and not have to worry about killing the battery.


----------



## Apo0th3karY

Quote: 





pngwn said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  I think bowei means having it perpetually plugged in defeats the purpose of having a portable amp. Might as well just get the E09 and call it a day.


----------



## pngwn

apo0th3kary said:


> pngwn said:
> 
> 
> > bowei006 said:
> ...




How long does the E9 battery last? Charging the E12 once a day or two isnt a big deal imo


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





pngwn said:


> How does it affect the E12's portability at all? The battery still lasts about 17 hours. The smart charging just means you can stick it on the charge when you go to bed and not have to worry about killing the battery.


 
  Having it charged in indefinitately.


----------



## Apo0th3karY

E09 is a desktop amp. It doesn't take batteries.....


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





pngwn said:


> How long does the E9 battery last? Charging the E12 once a day or two isnt a big deal imo


 
  The battery of the E9 and E90K lasts as long as you have power
   
  Because there is no battery.


----------



## pngwn

Oops, is my newness showing?

Regardless, 17 hr battery life is portable enough for me.


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





pngwn said:


> Oops, is my newness showing?
> 
> Regardless, 17 hr battery life is portable enough for me.


 
  I personally am not getting fully 17 hours. I do not drive it with large headphones either.
   
  I'll get more concise data.


----------



## waynes world

Hey pngwn! How's the synergy between the E12 and your AD900X's? RIght now I am listening on my laptop using a cheapo (but pretty darned good) ELE DAC, and I'm trying to choose between the E12 and the C&C. Thanks!


----------



## campj

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> That defeats the purpose of a portable amp however


 
  I don't want to worry about leaving it plugged in for a day or two if I don't end up using it. Give people a little more credit.
   
  Anyway, I left it plugged in for a few hours and the light never stopped oscillating. Suggested battery charge time is 1.7 hours which is why I ask.


----------



## Bill-P

By the way, when E12's battery is fully charged (solid red charging light), and it's still plugged in, you can use the amp without the "noise".


----------



## pngwn

@wayne

The E12 is makin my AD900X sound wonderful! Bass boost makes the low end very full, really fills in the rest of the spectrum. Sounds great without the boost as well though. I'll post more about it when I get home.


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





campj said:


> I don't want to worry about leaving it plugged in for a day or two if I don't end up using it. Give people a little more credit.
> 
> Anyway, I left it plugged in for a few hours and the light never stopped oscillating. Suggested battery charge time is 1.7 hours which is why I ask.


 
  The term used was indefinitely.
   
  Indefinitely plugging in a portable amp wouldn't be good value.
   
  But yes, plugging it in a day or two. All is fine. If we all keep worrying about the battery here and there, we won't be able to enjoy the device. That is my philosophy.


----------



## campj

By indefinitely I meant unspecified amount of time. It could be understood as unlimited too I suppose.


----------



## campj

Thanks for the info by the way,


----------



## bowei006

Sure
   
   
  I'll do actual testing of battery life on my E12. I feel like it only gets 10 hours for me. But then again, I haven't been fully recording its usage time.


----------



## waynes world

Quote: 





pngwn said:


> @wayne
> 
> The E12 is makin my AD900X sound wonderful! Bass boost makes the low end very full, really fills in the rest of the spectrum. Sounds great without the boost as well though. I'll post more about it when I get home.


 
   
  Very cool. I'm absolutely loving the detail and resolution of my ad900x's through my ele dac (no matter what I'm listening to... trance, dubstep, rock, whatever). When I throw my E11 into the mix though, it still sounds great, but I think that I am losing a bit of that detail/resolution. From everything I've read, the C&C's would probably be a clear upgrade from the E11. I suspect that the E12 would as well. So, I'm definitely looking forward to your impressions of both! Thanks.


----------



## pngwn

I'll try to test the battery on the E12 as well. I just charged it to full.


----------



## bareyb

Man those are sexy. Not finding them available on Amazon yet. How much they will be selling for?


----------



## waynes world

Quote: 





bareyb said:


> Man those are sexy. Not finding them available on Amazon yet. How much they will be selling for?


 
   
  Whatcha referring to?


----------



## bareyb

Quote: 





waynes world said:


> Whatcha referring to?


 
  E12


----------



## Evshrug

rsiv said:


> Thanks everyone for the advice and feedback.
> 
> Now I have a question for those that own the E12, please: I just noticed yesterday that when I turn it on, there is no sound for several seconds, then there is a loud clicking/popping noise inside the housing of the device, and then the sound comes on. The blue power light comes on immediately, but this delay in the sound starting and the noise that happens when it does worries me.  It also makes the same sound several seconds after I turn it off.  I feel like it wasn't doing this when I first got it, but I suppose there's a chance I just didn't notice it. If anyone can confirm if this is normal or not, I would really appreciate it.




I'm sure others have mentioned this, but that's a feature. A power-on delay (which makes that physical "tic" sound you heard from the E12), designed to help prevent the "thump" you sometimes hear through the headphones with cheap amps. Many home theater receivers have this feature as well. The "thump" is a power spike, bad for your ears and headphones, so it's nice FiiO has tried to address that. Even so, you ought to plug in your headphones AFTER the amp is turned on already.


----------



## JamesFiiO

evshrug said:


> I'm sure others have mentioned this, but that's a feature. A power-on delay (which makes that physical "tic" sound you heard from the E12), designed to help prevent the "thump" you sometimes hear through the headphones with cheap amps. Many home theater receivers have this feature as well. The "thump" is a power spike, bad for your ears and headphones, so it's nice FiiO has tried to address that. Even so, you ought to plug in your headphones AFTER the amp is turned on already.




It is a relay between the amp and loader(headphones), to avoid any pop noise during the amp is power on.

you can check out what is Relay in wiki I believe. when the relay is on or off, you can hear some "da da" sound because the switcher is on or off. 

you can alway connect your expensive headphones in E12 but don't need to worry about the pop noise will damage it.


----------



## Chris J

How do I replace the battery in my E09K?
What kind of battery is it?
Where can I get a replacement?
What brand name is it?
What type of battery is it?
How big is it?
How much does it weigh?
Where is the battery?
Why doesn't it have a battery? 


Sunday morning......what can I say? Just bored I guess.


----------



## Craigster75

Quote: 





bareyb said:


> E12


 

 available for order from Micca store.


----------



## JamesFiiO

About the decision about the bass boost.
   
  1, Not any change about the boost value, still about 4.3 to 4.5 dB as the original version.
   
  2, The new bass boost is not the same as E11, so don't need to worry about the new bass boost will affect the mid range . 
   
  Sorry it maybe a stupid decision , but for people who don't like the change, they can still choose the bass off.
   
  Trust me, the bass is all about energy ( power ), and Mont Blanc have plenty power to push out the bass of your headphones. I guess some people still remember that we have a plan to release a limited DIY version,
   
  which will not includes any sound effect, only volume control and gain control. but we will also consider to develop a amp with very good bass boost in the future when we have time. but now we just have too many 
   
  new project so all we need is time.


----------



## Craigster75

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> About the decision about the bass boost.
> 
> 1, Not any change about the boost value, still about 4.3 to 4.5 dB as the original version.
> 
> ...


 

 Thank you James.  You make some good points.  While I am a basshead, I expect to listen to many genres without bass boost.  When I engage bass boost for other genres, I want as much impact as possible, I believe the revised version is the best of both worlds to satisfy the majority (you can't please everyone).  When should we expect the updated units in the US and how will we know we are receiving the bass adjusted unit?
   
  Another suggestion to help you best utilize feedback from Head-fi members would be to encourage feedback earlier in the development process.  One way all this bass confusion could have been avoided was if there was a two stage bass boost designed into the E12 from the start as this is a very popular feature of the E11.  Someone suggested using polls that may be helpful in future product development.  I believe this process worked well for Val Kolton regarding his development of the M-100.


----------



## Evshrug

jamesfiio said:


> It is a relay between the amp and loader(headphones), to avoid any pop noise during the amp is power on.
> 
> you can check out what is Relay in wiki I believe. when the relay is on or off, you can hear some "da da" sound because the switcher is on or off.
> 
> you can alway connect your expensive headphones in E12 but don't need to worry about the pop noise will damage it.




A delay circuit... A relay that causes a delay between amp & load...
It's six or half dozen.

Anyway, along with Craigster's suggestion about utilizing Head-Fi feedback, you would probably get a better idea about the "majority" vote about something like a bass-boost setting by listing the pros/cons of both choices (like you did with the power output and charging behavior), and *then setting up an actual poll.* You'll probably have more people participate in voting, and it'll be easier for you to count votes. For example, by my count, since your posted question on page 63 a week ago, 7 different people have asked for more bass boost, 12 different people said they like it as-is, two people only mentioned they would like more adjustability options (like the E6's system). Nobody who has owned/heard the Mont Blanc has been unhappy with the bass. Now, the number of people who have commented in the week since you posted the question may not be a large enough sample size to draw conclusions, but *the point I'm trying to make is you're making a change based on a vocal minority.* If you do want to ask consumers about future changes, using a polling system will help you keep your head above bias... A statistician could help you even more (which I am not).

As far as your decision about changing the bass boost... it doesn't actually affect me, because I already have a Mont Blanc the way I like it. I'll just have to note the change in my review so other people will know I have a limited production design.


----------



## pngwn

So I ran my E12 down from a full charge last night and came out to about 11 hours. Not sure where I read 17 from. Not a bad run, I guess, but I think I'm just feeling a little spoiled from my BH's battery.


----------



## Dyaems

when is this DIY version coming out? im waiting


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





pngwn said:


> So I ran my E12 down from a full charge last night and came out to about 11 hours. Not sure where I read 17 from. Not a bad run, I guess, but I think I'm just feeling a little spoiled from my BH's battery.


 
  I haven't completely run it down yet. But I personaly have felt 10 hours from my other uses with it.


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





pngwn said:


> So I ran my E12 down from a full charge last night and came out to about 11 hours. Not sure where I read 17 from. Not a bad run, I guess, but I think I'm just feeling a little spoiled from my BH's battery.


 
   
  It depends on the gain, volume as well as what kind of load you are running the amp to. Low impedance (such as CIEM) or high impedance (such as >250ohm) load tend to suck out more power as the former demands more current while the later demands more voltage. I have ran E12 over 12 hours on two different times on typical 32ohm load on normal volume myself.
   
  I am not implying BH is bad in anyway - but law of physics stated that you can't spend more energy than you have. The reason FiiO can't put 100 hours of battery life (i.e. E7) into E12 is because E12 is outputting a lot more power than almost any portable amp in the market now, and those power needs to come from somewhere. The only solution is to cut down power (which voids the design goal of a portable that is capable of driving some of the hardest load) or increase the battery size (which voids the 'portable' part of the amp). If you are getting 100 hours of battery life, then the logical question is, how is it possible to get such an exceptional battery life without compromising other aspect in the design? It is optimized for battery life or driving power? It is not an issue of right or wrong, but the designer's goal and how well it performs to the demand.


----------



## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





clieos said:


> It depends on the gain, volume as well as what kind of load you are running the amp to. Low impedance (such as CIEM) or high impedance (such as >250ohm) load tend to suck out more power as the former demands more current while the later demands more voltage. I have ran E12 over 12 hours on two different times on typical 32ohm load on normal volume myself.
> 
> I am not implying BH is bad in anyway - but law of physics stated that you can't spend more energy than you have. The reason FiiO can't put 100 hours of battery life (i.e. E7) into E12 is because E12 is outputting a lot more power than almost any portable amp in the market now, and those power needs to come from somewhere. The only solution is to cut down power (which voids the design goal of a portable that is capable of driving some of the hardest load) or increase the battery size (which voids the 'portable' part of the amp). If you are getting 100 hours of battery life, then the logical question is, how is it possible to get such an exceptional battery life without compromising other aspect in the design? It is optimized for battery life or driving power? It is not an issue of right or wrong, but the designer's goal and how well it performs to the demand.


 
   
  Thanks for the explanation, any designer have to make decision between the size, performance, battery life, cost and some other things. the battery capacity of the build in battery is equal to 2400mAh@3.7V, the output power is 850mWx2, compare with our old E7, it is 1100mAh and the battery life is
   
  about 100 hours and the output power is about 150mW X 2.  
   
  BTW, the LME49600 can change to another working mode which will consume even more power but the sound will be even better, but the battery life will drop to less than 10 hours. there are not secret in the analog electronics technical , the true is that usually better sound quality need more power
   
  unless you choose digital amplifier which still can't compete with analog amplifier so far.


----------



## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





dyaems said:


> when is this DIY version coming out? im waiting


 
   
  Not decided yet. too many project now.


----------



## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> A delay circuit... A relay that causes a delay between amp & load...
> It's six or half dozen.
> 
> Anyway, along with Craigster's suggestion about utilizing Head-Fi feedback, you would probably get a better idea about the "majority" vote about something like a bass-boost setting by listing the pros/cons of both choices (like you did with the power output and charging behavior), and *then setting up an actual poll.* You'll probably have more people participate in voting, and it'll be easier for you to count votes. For example, by my count, since your posted question on page 63 a week ago, 7 different people have asked for more bass boost, 12 different people said they like it as-is, two people only mentioned they would like more adjustability options (like the E6's system). Nobody who has owned/heard the Mont Blanc has been unhappy with the bass. Now, the number of people who have commented in the week since you posted the question may not be a large enough sample size to draw conclusions, but *the point I'm trying to make is you're making a change based on a vocal minority.* If you do want to ask consumers about future changes, using a polling system will help you keep your head above bias... A statistician could help you even more (which I am not).
> ...


 
   
  Always  listen to our user, that is why I spend so many time on head-fi.


----------



## RoMee

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> Always  listen to our user, that is why I spend so many time on head-fi.


 
  Thank you for taking the time to listen to us minority with low-fi headphones bassheads.


----------



## Evshrug

...
Double post


----------



## Evshrug

romee said:


> Thank you for taking the time to listen to us minority with low-fi headphones bassheads.



I've never suggested that about bass-heavy headphones, nor has anyone else in this thread. In fact, the HE-400, DT990, and Phiathon headphones were all pointed out as high quality headphones that are widely considered to have strong, great quality bass. I can back that up, too, showing how the singular sound aspect of bass was not dismissed as unimportant. I'll even add now that many closed headphones have awesome bass and sound quality, for example the highly regarded Denon D7000. 

In my case, just because I think "choosing a headphone with the signature you like plus an amp that adds little color is the best way to get the desired sound signature" and a balanced amp suits the widest number of people, does not mean your personal taste preference is wrong.

I've read posts about people who really seek out "fun" colored music experiences, and specifically one was very happy with the Beyerdynamic DT990 600 ohm + E09k pairing. This E12 is suitable for an even wider audience, a portable basically on par with the desktop experience, and I think most people except the most extreme bassheads will be happy with the moderate sub-bass lift of the current boost and be able to just leave it on. I also think that shifting over the boost peak will still not satisfy those that want the boost _quantity_ of the digizoid ZO, while also making the boost something that is "more fun" yet something they'd use with fewer songs & genres. Still use it, but not leave it on all the time.

In my mind, i guess that the spread of how many people are of a taste is like this:
AnalyticalDark>Bass-Heavy
Do I have hard data to back that? Nope. But the majority of products (hp, DAPs, DACs, & especially amps) I see are pretty centered on the Balanced part of the scale, though also common is a moderate amount of the "smile-shaped" frequency response that typically trades a little ear fatigue for extra "fun" involving sound, a little more bass warmth while also lifting a bit of treble to keep from sounding dark. I often see us consumers switching between balanced and "fun" to keep from being bored or pained over time, and those that further pursue the hobby often own headphones of both kinds simultaneously.

Maybe some people will like an amp that can EQ a "balanced" headphone to sound "fun" and be able to switch with a bass boost, and maybe the new boost will do that for some. But I think that the people with a need for an amp that can power hard-to-drive headphones _and_ can be used portably are the kind of people that will own several headphones, now or later, and the sub-bass boost would suit a wider range of headphones.

Anyone is free to make a compelling argument for a different perspective, that's cool, but lets keep it copacetic?


----------



## Chris J

clieos said:


> It depends on the gain, volume as well as what kind of load you are running the amp to. Low impedance (such as CIEM) or high impedance (such as >250ohm) load tend to suck out more power as the former demands more current while the later demands more voltage. I have ran E12 over 12 hours on two different times on typical 32ohm load on normal volume myself.
> 
> I am not implying BH is bad in anyway - but law of physics stated that you can't spend more energy than you have. The reason FiiO can't put 100 hours of battery life (i.e. E7) into E12 is because E12 is outputting a lot more power than almost any portable amp in the market now, and those power needs to come from somewhere. The only solution is to cut down power (which voids the design goal of a portable that is capable of driving some of the hardest load) or increase the battery size (which voids the 'portable' part of the amp). If you are getting 100 hours of battery life, then the logical question is, how is it possible to get such an exceptional battery life without compromising other aspect in the design? It is optimized for battery life or driving power? It is not an issue of right or wrong, but the designer's goal and how well it performs to the demand.




A rather complicated topic!

Assuming you are always listening at the same SPL, gain has nothing to do with power consumption. (I am assuming if you turn the gain up then you turn the volume down).

Power consumption has more to do with headphone efficiency, obviously a less efficient headphone will require more power to generate the same SPL than a high efficiency headphone.

In addition, the E7 will be more efficient when driving the same headphone to the same SPL as the E12 because the E7 has a lower operating voltage (lower battery voltage) than the E12. Hence you are losing more power (less efficient) when you are operating an amp with more potential output voltage.


----------



## MrScratch

jamesfiio said:


> BTW, the LME49600 can change to another working mode which will consume even more power but the sound will be even better, [...]




It would be a REALLY nice&special "DIY" E12:
- Bass boost switch
+ Superior sound quality

Yeah, I like how it sounds.


----------



## JaiSAn

I sincerely have not returned to create a flame war as accused by some other members who did not appreciate my personal opinion in regard to the size. As a result I have added these few people to my Block list , not so that I take offence but so as to spare them from becoming unnecessarily vehement as a result of my replies.
   
  The objective of forums are for injections of personal opinions which equate to Reviews. One review may differ to another and who is to say which one is more correct than the other ? So if a reviewer provides a poor review of a device, should this reviewer expect Administrative retribution as others have implied ? If so then how can anyone trust the integrity of that Site ?
   
  I still stand by my impression that this device is too large for my purpose and that's not breaking any Forum Rules. Other's may consider it to be canine testicles from Northumberland and that's their own personal opinions, yet there are some others who also consider this device to be "huge" in comparisons.
   
  Whether James take heed or not of my opinion its his prerogative, either way it is of no matter.
  To submit personal attacks because you do not agree to others opinions should warrant Administrative notification,


----------



## bowei006

Finished up my FiiO E12 review.
   
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/650683/fiio-e12-mont-blanc-review-and-help-thread


----------



## Chris J

Why do we need another E12 thread?
   
  Note to JaiSan: they'll get over it. Like you said, it's just an opinion.


----------



## Apo0th3karY

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Why do we need another E12 thread?
> 
> Note to JaiSan: they'll get over it. Like you said, it's just an opinion.


 
   
  Perhaps not, but this thread is full of back and forth pre-production banter, where bowei's thread is a review.  I think it's a good idea to start a new thread sooner than later, cuz the M-100 thread for example is rather..... unruly with 800 pages in a year. Admittedly this thread is much cleaner and shorter, but for the sake of having all the useful post-production info in one spot, I personally don't think it's a bad idea.


----------



## bowei006

I didn't make a new(actual) thread. It's a review.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> I didn't make a new(actual) thread. It's a review.


 
   
  Say what?
  Then it should have been posted in reviews.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  You did title it the "...Review and Help Thread".
   
  Anyway, it's your thread and you're free to do whatever you like with it.


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Say what?
> Then it should have been posted in reviews.
> 
> 
> ...


 
  I prefer to have a standalone thread for reviews.


----------



## joe it

Quote: 





joe it said:


> Hi
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> There already is one.
> 
> There isn't any number lower than 0 for gain in terms of gaining.
> 
> ...


 
   
   
   
  Excuse me if I revisit the topic, but less than 0 there are negative numbers; many amps use them for greater flexibility.
   
  The same  Fijo for the E6 uses a -3db.
   
  With the power of the E12 would be more indicated a -6/ or -12 db.
   
  I am not a technician and I cannot see what contraindications may lead. 
   
   
  Can you explain me why no
   
   Thanks


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





joe it said:


> Excuse me if I revisit the topic, but less than 0 there are negative numbers; many amps use them for greater flexibility.
> 
> The same  Fijo for the E6 uses a -3db.
> 
> ...


 
   
   


> in terms of gaining


 
  I was trying to be humorous. Obviously there is no number smaller than 0 if you want to make something louder. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  I guess what you are trying to ask is if the gain's labeled are actually the true gains and not just a convenient number to use?
   
  You would have to ask FiiO that(JAmes) but he is currently celebrating CNY as am I


----------



## joe it

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> I was trying to be humorous. Obviously there is no number smaller than 0 if you want to make something louder.
> 
> I guess what you are trying to ask is if the gain's labeled are actually the true gains and not just a convenient number to use?
> 
> You would have to ask FiiO that(JAmes) but he is currently celebrating CNY as am I


 
   
  I understand, you're very nice
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  but despite having waited days, has not arrived no response pertinete nor by James nor by ClieOs, nor by those who wanted to..
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  I thank you, we'll have to wait 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.... perhaps


----------



## Parall3l

Spoiler: Irrelevant%20whining



 
   


jaisan said:


> I sincerely have not returned to create a flame war as accused by some other members who did not appreciate my personal opinion in regard to the size. As a result I have added these few people to my Block list , not so that I take offence but so as to spare them from becoming unnecessarily vehement as a result of my replies.
> 
> The objective of forums are for injections of personal opinions which equate to Reviews. One review may differ to another and who is to say which one is more correct than the other ? So if a reviewer provides a poor review of a device, should this reviewer expect Administrative retribution as others have implied ? If so then how can anyone trust the integrity of that Site ?
> 
> ...


 
   
   
  Your personal opinions have been logically responded to 50 pages ago, and it was also stated that FiiO can no longer change the size of the amp. You can try to victimise yourself all you like, but that's not going to mean anything. Your tone is clearly condescending and insulting, and your attempt to label those that responded to you as some kind of angry FiiO shill mob is unwanted. 
   
  Looks like you've finally made it to my blocklist as well.


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





joe it said:


> I understand, you're very nice
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  It's the new year celebration and break for FiiO.


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





joe it said:


> Excuse me if I revisit the topic, but less than 0 there are negative numbers; many amps use them for greater flexibility.
> 
> The same  Fijo for the E6 uses a -3db.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Quote: 





joe it said:


> I understand, you're very nice
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Sorry, I don't check this thread regularly as there are simply too many threads around.
   
  E6 has a -3dB gain because a full line-level signal (2V) will clip the amp section. E12 has more than enough voltage swing to avoid clipping on line signal so it isn't necessary to have negative gain. If it was up to me, I'll like a -6db / 0 / +6dB kind of setting, but you do need to remember that negative gain generally is bad news for dynamic range (as a compromise) to achieve better control on volume range for sensitive headphone / IEM.
   
  I use E12 with IEM all the time with no problem. It might not have been designed for IEM, but most of the time it still works quite well.


----------



## Bill-P

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> BTW, the LME49600 can change to another working mode which will consume even more power but the sound will be even better, but the battery life will drop to less than 10 hours. there are not secret in the analog electronics technical , the true is that usually better sound quality need more power
> 
> unless you choose digital amplifier which still can't compete with analog amplifier so far.


 
   
  If you can make a Fiio E13 or anything that's O2 sized but with much higher audio quality and power output than E12, then I'd buy it even if it can barely reach 10 hours of battery life.
   
  I think O2 has made a strong case that there are people willing to sacrifice ergonomics and portability for better audio quality.
   
  That and I think a strictly USB DAC to compliment E12 would be something I'm willing to pay top dollar for. I've been a huge fan of your company's D3 for a long while (I haven't heard the revised D03K though), and I've been itching to see a USB version that has a better opamp that gives better soundstage/stereo separation.


----------



## UprightMan

qq - the main gripe I have with the e11 is that the output socket is too loose and my jack comes out too easily/often.  Is this fixed in the E12?


----------



## Currawong

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Just came across this thread. Nice specs! I have a DIY amp here that uses a similar set-up and I set to the better working mode. Would be interesting to have an amp where this could be switched in and out though I'm not sure if that could be done in a convenient way. Maybe via dip switches on the board accessible through a hole? Just throwing the thought out there. 
   
  By the way, let me know if you're coming to the FujiyaAvic show in Tokyo in May as it'd be great to be able to say hi.


----------



## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





currawong said:


> Just came across this thread. Nice specs! I have a DIY amp here that uses a similar set-up and I set to the better working mode. Would be interesting to have an amp where this could be switched in and out though I'm not sure if that could be done in a convenient way. Maybe via dip switches on the board accessible through a hole? Just throwing the thought out there.
> 
> By the way, let me know if you're coming to the FujiyaAvic show in Tokyo in May as it'd be great to be able to say hi.


 
   
  Will try to attend the show, but at least our distributor Oyaide will be there.


----------



## Evshrug

currawong said:


> Just came across this thread. Nice specs! I have a DIY amp here that uses a similar set-up and I set to the better working mode. Would be interesting to have an amp where this could be switched in and out though I'm not sure if that could be done in a convenient way. Maybe via dip switches on the board accessible through a hole? Just throwing the thought out there.
> 
> By the way, let me know if you're coming to the FujiyaAvic show in Tokyo in May as it'd be great to be able to say hi.



Maybe it could switch to this mode automatically if plugged into a wall outlet and turned on? Sort of like how laptops switch to high performance mode when plugged in to power? Maybe a lower power mode during portable use to extend battery life... Then again, I get a few days of my typical use out of the E12 as-is.


----------



## Craigster75

I am wondering if anyone can compare the E12 sonically to the Headstage Arrow 12HE?


----------



## campj

Quote: 





uprightman said:


> qq - the main gripe I have with the e11 is that the output socket is too loose and my jack comes out too easily/often.  Is this fixed in the E12?


 
  The input and output jacks both click into place. They feel really solid.


----------



## Currawong

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Good thinking! Poor James is going to have to get the kitchen sink built into the E12 if we keep coming up with these ideas though.


----------



## Evshrug

Maybe he can use hand sanitizer instead? Totally kidding!
I do really like it, as is. Especially that it suits all my current and planned future headphones (some nice high-impedance DT880s). I've been editing my review on my E12 preorder unit since I got it – by editing, I mean I have plenty written about it already, I just have to get my thoughts organized.


----------



## hei629

as good as Fiios can be, I don't really like their designs


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





hei629 said:


> as good as Fiios can be, I don't really like their designs


 
   
  It is the kind of situation where you can have any color you want, as long as it is black


----------



## bowei006

Some Fiio are silver


----------



## bareyb

Quote: 





craigster75 said:


> available for order from Micca store.


 
  Micca store at Amazon only has the E11.


----------



## nammoc

has anyone tried to paired e12 with yuin pk1?


----------



## HiFan

49990 is definitely good. I am not sure about 49860 though. 49860 as the I/V buffer only downgrade the sound of my iBasso D6.


----------



## eyal1983

I need the *package *dimensions of the E12, from someone who ordered from Miccastore... they don't send worldwide, so i'm gonna use a logistics company, which charges by sizes and weights.
   
  can anybody help?


----------



## Evshrug

Phew.
  After what feels like a month of gathering impressions, writing notes (here and there), and organizing my thoughts (and probably over 4 hours of my day today), I've finally posted my Mont Blanc review. I still think ClieOS will be able to provide a more technically quantified review, but I hope mine helps people get the measure of the amp (in it's current form). Voilá:
  http://www.head-fi.org/products/fiio-e12-mont-blanc/reviews/8449
   
  There's a few problems with hyperlinks, and I want to add some pictures taken in daylight, but... yeah, it's out at least.


----------



## Evshrug

Quote: 





eyal1983 said:


> I need the *package *dimensions of the E12, from someone who ordered from Miccastore... they don't send worldwide, so i'm gonna use a logistics company, which charges by sizes and weights.
> 
> can anybody help?


 
  Uh, my retail box is right here, let me see if I can find a ruler... or do you need the dimensions of the shipping box the retail box was inside? Cuz I don't have the shipping box anymore...


----------



## gavinfabl

I have been listening to this album with the E12, iPod Classic and Sennheiser HD558. Simply the most amazing musical experience.


----------



## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





eyal1983 said:


> I need the *package *dimensions of the E12, from someone who ordered from Miccastore... they don't send worldwide, so i'm gonna use a logistics company, which charges by sizes and weights.
> 
> can anybody help?


 
   
  it will be better to send an email to support@miccastore.com and you will get the answer, and the size of the giftbox not equal to the size of the shipping box.


----------



## cryyourselftoash

[size=medium]Sorry if these questions have been answered already , 80 pages of comments is a heck of a lot to trawl through![/size]
   

 [size=medium]Volume control/potentiometer: is it a digital control similar to the Pico slim perhaps? Looking to upgrade from my E6 and will be using with JH-5 IEMs mostly so want a really smooth micro controllable volume knob that won’t start crackling after several months/a years worth of use like other pots tend to do. Basically what i’m looking for is a budget Pico slim option if i’m honest... don’t be shy with any recommends if the E12 isn’t that way to go. I’ve been out the head-fi game a while. Yes my wallet has been doing very well, thank you. It’s time it was punished again...[/size]
 [size=medium]Price? Not up on amazon uk, ebay etc. Anybody know what the damage is/going to be yet?[/size]


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





cryyourselftoash said:


> [size=medium]Sorry if these questions have been answered already , 80 pages of comments is a heck of a lot to trawl through![/size]
> 
> 
> [size=medium]Volume control/potentiometer: is it a digital control similar to the Pico slim perhaps? Looking to upgrade from my E6 and will be using with JH-5 IEMs mostly so want a really smooth micro controllable volume knob that won’t start crackling after several months/a years worth of use like other pots tend to do. Basically what i’m looking for is a budget Pico slim option if i’m honest... don’t be shy with any recommends if the E12 isn’t that way to go. I’ve been out the head-fi game a while. Yes my wallet has been doing very well, thank you. It’s time it was punished again...[/size]
> [size=medium]Price? Not up on amazon uk, ebay etc. Anybody know what the damage is/going to be yet?[/size]


 
   
  1. Analog, not digital.
   
  2. Somewhere around US$130, might be more expensive in the UK, as most things are. You will have to wait till the EU / UK dealer get their stock before it will show up in Amazon, may be in a month or so.


----------



## jazzman7

Quote: 





eyal1983 said:


> I need the *package *dimensions of the E12, from someone who ordered from Miccastore... they don't send worldwide, so i'm gonna use a logistics company, which charges by sizes and weights.
> 
> can anybody help?


 
   
  The package my E12 came in from Miccastore was a padded envelope that surrounded the retail box.  So, take the retail box and add "a little" to each dimension; perhaps 2 cm per side.  Or (better) have the logistics company rebox the package using a bigger shipping box and styro peanuts...


----------



## jazzman7

...and now the size of the white-and-red box: 15cm x 11cm x 3.5cm.


----------



## jazzman7

double post


----------



## Bill-P

Just tried E12 with Pioneer SE-50.
   
  What can I say? Another perfect synergy pairing! The magical midrange and low-end of E12 compliments the vintage headphone perfectly.
   
  Being a vintage pair, these are actually pretty hard to drive. I had to engage the gain switch on E12 (yeah, imagine doing that to a 8 Ohm headphone). But once the gain switch is on... wow... that midrange, that bass, that soundstage. The gain was so insane that about 1/3 of the way on the volume pot was equal to full volume without gain. But I didn't expect everything
   
  This is truly phenomenon!
   
  So I just want to say... great job, Fiio!


----------



## waynes world

Quote: 





bill-p said:


> Just tried E12 with Pioneer SE-50.
> 
> What can I say? Another perfect synergy pairing! The magical midrange and low-end of E12 compliments the vintage headphone perfectly.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Awesome! I have the E12 on the way. I wanted to get the current version since it seems to pair so well with the amazing ad900x. I really can't wait!


----------



## TooPoor

Be gentle. This thread is quite long. Looking for a quick answer... My E12 has horrible interference on all my headphones when connected to my iPhone via FiiO L9 (i believe, its their LOD). Is this avoidable? Is it due to the LOD?? I primarily use it at work through spotify premium. I have a custom LOD coming from BTG Audio, not to correct the interference, but I'm wondering if it will lessen it.


----------



## Michel01

Hi James
   
  I'd like to know if the E12 is fitted with capacitors at the input stage to decouple any dc component from the signal in the same way as the E11 does.
   
  Thanks


----------



## bowei006

toopoor said:


> Be gentle. This thread is quite long. Looking for a quick answer... My E12 has horrible interference on all my headphones when connected to my iPhone via FiiO L9 (i believe, its their LOD). Is this avoidable? Is it due to the LOD?? I primarily use it at work through spotify premium. I have a custom LOD coming from BTG Audio, not to correct the interference, but I'm wondering if it will lessen it.




First turn off

Bluetooth
Wireless
Cellular

Or just turn off bluetooth and switch on airplane mode.

And try it that way. This is just a test. 

It may be this

I ge interference from wifi with mine and only wifi

Att hspa+ 4G 
GSM
Usa


----------



## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





michel01 said:


> Hi James
> 
> I'd like to know if the E12 is fitted with capacitors at the input stage to decouple any dc component from the signal in the same way as the E11 does.
> 
> Thanks


 
   
  Yes, the capacitors is WIMA. all of our amp includes capacitor in case there are DC voltage and damages the headphones. for any amp which can handle DC voltage, be careful about the DC output .


----------



## J Bones

She finally arrived today! First impression is....HELL YEAH 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  I only had the 3.5 interconnect that came with it but it sounds so much better than obviously powered through the iPod itself and even through my A/V receiver. I'm a bit busy tonight with hitting up the gym and work but I'll have to write a review this weekend but I can't wait. Hopefully the new toy feeling doesn't wear off too fast.


----------



## Dyaems

still waiting xD
   
  also, i know that the x3 headphone jack is sturdier... i wonder if the E12's headphone jack is sturdier as well, compared to E7/E17


----------



## waynes world

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *J Bones* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> She finally arrived today! First impression is....HELL YEAH
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Congrats! Don't forget to burn it in for 20-40 hours as per James' recommendations.


----------



## J Bones

Quote: 





waynes world said:


> Congrats! Don't forget to burn it in for 20-40 hours as per James' recommendations.


 
   
  Definitely did not even think about the need for a burn-in on the E12, but I don't think 20-40 hours should be such a problem, my ears are too spoiled. I'm pretty happy how portable I think it is too, I was worried that it might be too big but it's just the right size.


----------



## waynes world

Quote: 





j bones said:


> Definitely did not even think about the need for a burn-in on the E12, but I don't think 20-40 hours should be such a problem, my ears are too spoiled. I'm pretty happy how portable I think it is too, I was worried that it might be too big but it's just the right size.


 
   
  Check out evshrug's review where he said:
   
  Quote: 





> Lastly, when I first got the amp, I was honestly a little disappointed. It sounded technically very accurate, but there was a sort of "coldness" to the sound and I wasn't feeling very emotionally involved. Like the amp was holding back somehow. After 3 hours, I took a break and got some coffee, came back to the amp, and slowly (as I was typing to someone about it, in fact) "Q701's are digging in deeper and sounding much nicer... Ooh, right as I was typing that, the last track of "The Suburbs" was almost finished and softly hit me with a really low bass note, gave me a chill!" As I listen now, I just melted a bit at the intro to Muse's "Resistance" from the album of the same name. Back when I first heard the E12's "musical side" I put it down as my ears adjusting to the sound signature, but someone else in the E12 thread had a similar experience, and another, then JamesFiiO stated that the WIMA capacitor actually burns in over time. So, I guess now I'm a believer, lol.


 
   
  And that's great what you think about the size. I haven't received mine yet, but I was a bit worried about the size also. But, I have come to the realization that it will be fine for me.


----------



## Craigster75

Quote: 





waynes world said:


> Check out evshrug's review where he said:
> 
> 
> And that's great what you think about the size. I haven't received mine yet, but I was a bit worried about the size also. But, I have come to the realization that it will be fine for me.


 

 I think the size is fine.  As long as I can fit the amp and player in my front jeans pocket, I consider it portable.  Centrance considers the M8 portable and it is at least 3X the size of the E12.  I think the E12 is also the best looking portable amp out right now.


----------



## J Bones

Quote: 





craigster75 said:


> I think the E12 is also the best looking portable amp out right now.


 
   
  Without a doubt. Very slender and sleek and quite the exceptional brushed finish. The build is nice and sturdy and that always is a plus in my book.


----------



## waynes world

Quote: 





craigster75 said:


> I think the size is fine.  As long as I can fit the amp and player in my front jeans pocket, I consider it portable.  Centrance considers the M8 portable and it is at least 3X the size of the E12.  I think the E12 is also the best looking portable amp out right now.


 
   
  Yes, it is pretty. I am looking for some "Dual Lock" stuff for locking it to my various sources. From what I have heard, that stuff works well.


----------



## Dyaems

Quote: 





craigster75 said:


> I think the size is fine.  As long as I can fit the amp and player in my front jeans pocket, I consider it portable.  Centrance considers the M8 portable and it is at least 3X the size of the E12.  I think the E12 is also the best looking portable amp out right now.


 
   
  not really, pico products are good-looking as well, but they are pricier of course. for 150usd below bracket though, fiio has the best looking porta amps!


----------



## Craigster75

Quote: 





waynes world said:


> Yes, it is pretty. I am looking for some "Dual Lock" stuff for locking it to my various sources. From what I have heard, that stuff works well.


 

 I would be curious for info/feedback on the dual lock.  The bands are too frustrating since they block the touchscreen on the Iphone.


----------



## Typhoon859

Does anybody else find the nearly 6 dB of bass boost to be much, especially without any increment upwards to it?  I didn't even check the specific amount until now because I couldn't possibly imagine that this would be done, especially since everybody has been so happy with the level of all the former bass boost integrations.  As a matter of fact, the only complaints I've ever seen before was that even then people found it sometimes to be much...
   
  It's quite disappointing actually.  Many pairs of headphones benefit from a little bit of bass boost (it's often the case for many technical reasons actually), and for casual listening and consumer purposes, a bass boost can also be nice.  But 6 decibels of it?...  That eliminates about 90% of scenarios where bass boost has a good use and this unfortunately eliminated the amp for me all together because I fall into the category where the boost could actually be used to balance out the frequency response of my cans which are otherwise perfect (for my needs but also of course IMO).  The amp is therefore limited to scenarios where bass boost isn't wanted AND/OR NEEDED, and the 10% remaining of cases where it's wanted (the percentage of course being an arbitrary number...).


----------



## bowei006

Do you have new or previous bass version?


----------



## waynes world

Quote: 





craigster75 said:


> I would be curious for info/feedback on the dual lock.  The bands are too frustrating since they block the touchscreen on the Iphone.


 
   
This is what I have so far. I went to my local Home Depot (Canada), and they didn't know what I was talking about lol. The search continues...
   
This is the product link.


----------



## bowei006

waynes world said:


> This is what I have so far. I went to my local Home Depot (Canada), and they didn't know what I was talking about lol. The search continues...
> 
> This is the product link.



I remember people talking about that. Completely forgot about that as I am fairly comfortable with the bands.

all i need now are VERY short 3.5 mm interconnect , L11(buy not borrow), and dual lock


----------



## waynes world

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> Do you have new or previous bass version?


 
   
  Fyi, I have been discussing this with Typhoon here.
   
  But regarding the "previous" version, I ordered mine from Micca a few days ago. Do you think it is safe to assume that it would still be the "previous" version?  I am hoping so.


----------



## bowei006

waynes world said:


> Fyi, I have been discussing this with Typhoon here.
> 
> But regarding the "previous" version, I ordered mine from Micca a few days ago. Do you think it is safe to assume that it would still be the "previous" version?  I am hoping so.


It is almost if not certain to be v1. 

I dont think bass presense on impact 1 is large but i dont know what typhoon got


----------



## kova4a

Well, I think it was Tyll who first discovered dual lock. Anyway, it's great for portable rigs, especially the transparent low-profile one - it looks like that and you actually don't need such a big strip and you put one on the DAP and you press them together and separate them later as I did for the pic. Also it leaves almost zero residue if you want to remove it from the equipment


----------



## bowei006

I think it was someone at 3M who first "discovered" what would later become dual lock 
#factuallycorrect


----------



## kova4a

LOL I mean he discovered it's use for holding portable gear together instead of silicone bands and O-rings


----------



## Typhoon859

Quote: 





typhoon859 said:


> Does anybody else find the nearly 6 dB of bass boost to be much, especially without any increment upwards to it?  I didn't even check the specific amount until now because I couldn't possibly imagine that this would be done, especially since everybody has been so happy with the level of all the former bass boost integrations.  As a matter of fact, the only complaints I've ever seen before was that even then people found it sometimes to be much...
> 
> It's quite disappointing actually.  Many pairs of headphones benefit from a little bit of bass boost (it's often the case for many technical reasons actually), and for casual listening and consumer purposes, a bass boost can also be nice.  But 6 decibels of it?...  That eliminates about 90% of scenarios where bass boost has a good use and this unfortunately eliminated the amp for me all together because I fall into the category where the boost could actually be used to balance out the frequency response of my cans which are otherwise perfect (for my needs but also of course IMO).  The amp is therefore limited to scenarios where bass boost isn't wanted AND/OR NEEDED, and the 10% remaining of cases where it's wanted (the percentage of course being an arbitrary number...).


 
   
  Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> Do you have new or previous bass version?


 
  If you were referring to me, I don't have either.  That's hardly the point.  Plus, both integrations (the second of which I feel is better) have approximately the same amount of gain applied, just differently...  
   
  PS- I do however have almost every other FiiO amp or at least have heard/seen them...  The graph is enough to know objectively and subjectively the impact it would have on the sound.  All I wouldn't know is how well it does it or how perfectly accurate that graph representation is, which again, at the level it's at would hardly be of any relevance to the point I made and am asking about.


----------



## Dyaems

you guys can just use a small amount of blu-tak between the amp and the back of the dap and press it firmly. its cheaper and it wont mess the adhesive of dual lock/velcro at the surface of your daps or amps


----------



## kova4a

I don't know about that. For me the low-profile dual lock is like the future of portable audio devices stacking. For instance, you forget to charge your amp - unsnap it and snap you backup amp on the DAP. You don't have to remove the dual lock when you want to separate your rig - you just separate it and they wait to be snapped back together. Also, as I said the low-profile dual lock leaves almost zero residue for that moment when you want to remove it and sell your DAP, for instance.


----------



## Typhoon859

Anyone going to comment on the bass boost remark?
   
  I'm really hoping that it's otherwise implemented or that there's an alternative that is made, and not just for my sake, but really for FiiO themselves.  I truly respect what they do but this makes it a hard pitching point and for a very stupid reason...


----------



## Chris J

typhoon859 said:


> Anyone going to comment on the bass boost comment?
> 
> I'm really hoping that it's otherwise implemented or that there's an alternative that is made, and not just for my sake, but really for FiiO themselves.  I truly respect what they do but this makes it a hard pitching point and for a very stupid reason...




My preference is for a small amount of bass boost.
The bass heads can get another amp!

Still waiting for The Headfone Shop to get some stock!

Crossing my fingers that it is V1: low bass boost.


----------



## Evshrug

waynes world said:


> Check out evshrug's review where he said:
> 
> And that's great what you think about the size. I haven't received mine yet, but I was a bit worried about the size also. But, I have come to the realization that it will be fine for me.




I feel like mine "settled" after only about 3 hours, the difference is too hard to quantify BUT easy to value. I think it's safe to say FiiO burns their products in a bit at the factory anyway, so your time may vary (if you hear a change at all).

I'm pleased you liked the review, took a looong time to consider it from different perspectives and applications, and how to write a fair review while allowing the strengths to shine out through the necessary compromises.


----------



## Typhoon859

Quote: 





chris j said:


> My preference is for a small amount of bass boost.
> The bass heads can get another amp!
> 
> Still waiting for The Headfone Shop to get some stock!
> ...


 
  You mean _low frequency_ bass boost?
   
  And also, it doesn't have to be one way or the other.  The E11 works for both and it's ultimately how much bass boost is necessary/wanted for the headphones you'd be using it with.  In any case, such a high boost is limiting and in the end does actually boil down to the basshead craze which doesn't make sense to me decision wise, nor does it suit the amp itself for what it is.  Bassheads tend to associate quality with almost only how much bass there is and usually go for the cheap stuff because that's often taken advantage of as a gimmick...
   
  Of course I'd like this to be changed but at least an official explanation for the thought behind this would be nice...


----------



## Evshrug

typhoon859 said:


> Anyone going to comment on the bass boost remark?
> 
> I'm really hoping that it's otherwise implemented or that there's an alternative that is made, and not just for my sake, but really for FiiO themselves.  I truly respect what they do but this makes it a hard pitching point and for a very stupid reason...








Here's James post regarding the two bass-boosts, the blue lines represent the v1 boost while the rusty red line is the "revised" boost. It really only "peaks" at around a 5 dB boost, though James earlier said before the graphs that it was like 4 dB of boost, which I assume is like looking at as "how much boost is there on average." 

Technically a lot of headphones (especially Open Backed headphones) typically have a sub-bass roll off. Here's frequency charts of a few popular headphones on head-fi, to get an idea how the frequencies will "stack up" with the Mont Blanc's bass boost:





Now for some "I think"s:

The Q701 I have has pretty good bass extension (though not very high dB), and rolls off just about where the Mont Blanc's (optional) boost starts kicking in. So effectively, the new combo just has deeper "bass extension" above 0 dB rather than enough to change roll-off into a "Woah!" upsweep.

Looking at the graph again, the new curve has the same "peak" boost, though slightly forward. Technically that will affect more notes and will net a stronger bass in the combo with a headphone that already has decent bass extension. However, I haven't heard the new model. And based on how much change I hear from songs featuring deep bass when I switch between on/off boost, I think it still will be a largely subtle difference (though more frequently heard). Will it still be as refined and sound as controlled? Dunno that. I know there is more to quality that isn't defined just by quantity (and of course enjoyment is flavored by personal taste). I still think the current boost is more versatile and fits really well with the Q701s 

Here's the E11's Level 1 & 2 bass boost (on high gain, note that the graph starts at 10 Hz instead of 20 Hz like above) for reference, especially for those who have an E11 to hear now:


Surprising number of people using the Q701s here! Cool! Hey buddies!
Also, you and I may not be bassheads, and aggressive boosting may be a niche taste, but lets do what we can to respect other's tastes while asserting our own... "Catch more flies with honey," y'know?


----------



## Typhoon859

Right.  That's the post I've been going off of (the one you linked and posted a chart of).  Looking at it again, I also prefer the original better, and the bass boost actually plays out as I will list.  Prior to now, I didn't realize that a lot of the other frequencies get boosted as well, and aren't based around 0.  I guess once again I didn't pay attention close enough because I wouldn't think that it would make sense to chart the graph with any kind of boost throughout the full range.  That might actually be so that the line doesn't cross between the 0 mark (in which case the low-mids would go into negative).  The following would be for the original version of the bass boost, with 1 KHz as the center point of 0 dB (these are all just approximations done based off the provided graphs by FiiO, I'd say done with a tolerance of about +/-.1 dB).  
   
*Bass Boost Off-*
  20 KHz:  +.18 dB  
  15 KHz:  +.23 dB  
  10 KHz:  +.28 dB  
  7.5 KHz: +.31 dB
  5 KHz:    +.33 dB  
  3 KHz:    +.35 dB  
  2 KHz:    +.3 dB  
  1 KHz:     +0 dB  
  500 Hz:   -.2 dB  
  300 Hz:   -.27 dB  
  200 Hz:   -.34 dB  
  100 Hz:   -.42 dB  
  60 Hz:     -.48 dB  
  50 Hz:     -.52 dB  
  40 Hz:     -.68 dB  
  30 Hz:     -.78 dB  
  20 Hz:      -1 dB  
   
   
*Bass Boost On-*
  20 KHz:  +.05 dB  
  15 KHz:  +.19 dB  
  10 KHz:  +.16 dB  
  7.5 KHz: +.16 dB
  5 KHz:    +.16 dB  
  3 KHz:    +.18 dB  
  2 KHz:    +.22 dB  
  1 KHz:     +0 dB  
  500 Hz:   -.2 dB
  400 Hz:   -.12 dB  
  300 Hz:     0 dB  
  200 Hz:   +.15 dB  
  100 Hz:   +.9 dB  
  80 Hz:     +1.4 dB  
  60 Hz:     +2.25 dB  
  50 Hz:     +2.6 dB  
  40 Hz:     +3.2 dB  
  30 Hz:     +3.8 dB  
  20 Hz:     +3.9 dB  
   
   
  And BTW, in your review for the amp, you mentioned that it's sound signature initially sounded kind of cold..  Well, your brained burned in the wrong way, lol, which is actually often the case.  It's frequency response as provided by FiiO and the type of amplifier that it is would indicate exactly that.  That's what emphasized sub-bass rumbling with slightly recessed lower-mids and odd-harmonic distortion in the harshest ranges typically sounds like.  Regardless this would mean that music recorded and mastered before the 1980's (approximate number) for the most part would never sound especially pleasant (just to give you an idea as to what I'm implying), because the amps used in studios at the time had pretty much the exact opposite characteristics.  I'm all for neutral sound but calling this amp neutral would be misleading to people who hear it and associate neutral with what's realistically a cold sound signature.  That's why neutral cans also often get shunned by casual listeners because people don't realize that it's the pairing of both the amp and the headphones which give you the sound, so in the case of neutral headphones, they'd just be revealing the true nature of most solid state amplifiers, especially cheap ones.  But anyway, I shouldn't say any more than that since I haven't actually heard the amp, though at this point I would wager that I pretty much know what it sounds like, none of this at all to imply that it's not more than a decent amp otherwise, especially comparatively to most others in the price range.  
   
  EDIT: Looking at it more thoroughly, the original bass boost of the E12 (but maybe with two increments like on the E11 - one by 1 dB less than the current curve by the point of 20 Hz, and one with 1 dB more) is ideal!  And, you know, if the following would be possible to integrate without any trade-offs, an extra added step wouldn't hurt either (so something like +3/+5/+7 by the end vs. the current +4) XD  Of course without increments higher, less is always better unless we're barely talking a difference...  The bass heads are of the lesser majority and shouldn't even be an influence on something.  Pandering towards the uninformed/inexperienced can't possibly ever be the right approach.  Almost everyone starts out a bass head but it's typically grown out of for many proper reasons.


----------



## Evshrug

Typhoon, your 2nd narrative paragraph got away from me a bit.
1. I don't recall stating the freq response as being cold. Out of the box, by ear, I thought it sounded restrained, the detail was a smidgen held back compared to my brighter tube amp, so instead of cold I thought I was describing a signature erring on the side of dark. I'm newish to finding the vocabulary others use to describe sound (plus I'm really tired at the moment), but I'm more familiar with bright, emphasized mids/highs and dry anemic bass (which I heard with AD700), than I am with a dark, thick bass with recessed highs, type of sound (which I heard with my V-MODA LPs and *woah!* someone's Sony XB500), and with my Ety's, AKGs, Audio Technicas, and what I learned from other headphones, I call the Mont Blanc, overall and after burn-in, neutral because it imparts little coloration consistently noticeable between different headphones.

2. The revised E12 boost is basically in the middle between the E11's mode 1 & 2.

3. Where do you see recessed mids in the amp charts? The freq response mostly levels out after the boost effect, if anything it bows upward at the center.

Anyway, the end all result is I like my Mont Blanc.


----------



## J Bones

Quote: 





typhoon859 said:


> Anyone going to comment on the bass boost remark?
> 
> I'm really hoping that it's otherwise implemented or that there's an alternative that is made, and not just for my sake, but really for FiiO themselves.  I truly respect what they do but this makes it a hard pitching point and for a very stupid reason...


 
   
  I have found in the few hours I have used it that the bass is too much for majority of my IEM's or lower impedance phones, but for my Q701 it's just right and I wouldn't want it any other way. I really purchased the E12 for the gain since my A/V receiver on max volume wasn't really all too audible. Honestly, a desktop amp would obviously be best for the Q but buying a portable is much easier on my wallet for right now, so I'll stick to that lol.


----------



## Bill-P

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Here's James post regarding the two bass-boosts, the blue lines represent the v1 boost while the rusty red line is the "revised" boost. It really only "peaks" at around a 5 dB boost, though James earlier said before the graphs that it was like 4 dB of boost, which I assume is like looking at as "how much boost is there on average."


 
   
  Since Typhoon also asked me this question in my thread, I'll respond here as well.
   
  This is exactly what I heard and was able to measure. On average, E12's boost is closer to being 4dB. It's easy to test: generate a frequency sweep from 20Hz to 200Hz, then attenuate it by -4dB but keep the original track. Play the -4dB track w/ bass boost on and play the original track without bass boost. I'd bet they sound mostly the same. Or in fact, the original track (w/o bass boost) would sound louder because it's not a uniform +4dB bass boost for all frequencies. It's a curve.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





typhoon859 said:


> You mean _low frequency_ bass boost?
> 
> And also, it doesn't have to be one way or the other.  The E11 works for both and it's ultimately how much bass boost is necessary/wanted for the headphones you'd be using it with.  In any case, such a high boost is limiting and in the end does actually boil down to the basshead craze which doesn't make sense to me decision wise, nor does it suit the amp itself for what it is.  Bassheads tend to associate quality with almost only how much bass there is and usually go for the cheap stuff because that's often taken advantage of as a gimmick...
> 
> Of course I'd like this to be changed but at least an official explanation for the thought behind this would be nice...


 
   
  Ooops!
  I meant Low Frequency Bass Boost!


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





typhoon859 said:


> Right.  That's the post I've been going off of (the one you linked and posted a chart of).  Looking at it again, I also prefer the original better, and the bass boost actually plays out as I will list.  Prior to now, I didn't realize that a lot of the other frequencies get boosted as well, and aren't based around 0.  I guess once again I didn't pay attention close enough because I wouldn't think that it would make sense to chart the graph with any kind of boost throughout the full range.  That might actually be so that the line doesn't cross between the 0 mark (in which case the low-mids would go into negative).  The following would be for the original version of the bass boost, with 1 KHz as the root at 0 dB (these will all of course just be approximations, I'd say with a tolerance of about +/-.1 dB).
> 
> *Bass Boost Off-*
> 20 KHz:  +.18 dB
> ...


 
   
  Where did you get these numbers from?
  A lot of these numbers are low enough to be tolerance and calibration errors.


----------



## SteveSatch

Would this amp be a good match for Brainwavz Hm5 headphones?  I use a C421 now.


----------



## imackler

Quote: 





stevesatch said:


> Would this amp be a good match for Brainwavz Hm5 headphones?  I use a C421 now.


 
   
  Is there something you don't like about the C421?


----------



## jiminy

Anyone going to comment on the bass boost remark?


I think what's happened is a couple of people who don't own the amp complained about the lack of boost so it has been changed. 
From what I have read, everyone who has this amp likes the current bass boost and does not want it changed. I've tried to buy v1 because it looks like the superior option, to no avail.
Maybe James fiio should have a vote as at the moment this change seems to be turning people of this amp.


----------



## campj

Quote: 





typhoon859 said:


> Bassheads tend to associate quality with almost only how much bass there is and usually go for the cheap stuff because that's often taken advantage of as a gimmick...


 
   
  Say what? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Sounds like plain bigotry to me.
   
  Not that I typically care to take sides in stupid headphone arguments, as I think it's a silly thing to argue about, but this comment irked me.


----------



## Bill-P

Quote: 





jiminy said:


> Anyone going to comment on the bass boost remark?
> 
> I think what's happened is a couple of people who don't own the amp complained about the lack of boost so it has been changed.
> From what I have read, everyone who has this amp likes the current bass boost and does not want it changed. I've tried to buy v1 because it looks like the superior option, to no avail.
> Maybe James fiio should have a vote as at the moment this change seems to be turning people of this amp.


 
   
  Well, I maintain my previous position: the current bass boost is good enough. It should not change. It's addressing the low-bass roll-off of certain headphones and systems quite elegantly while keeping frequency response elsewhere even and balanced.
   
  I hope that if Fiio is changing the bass boost, then they at least offer the old version alongside the new version. Maybe call the new version E13, or E12B, or something.


----------



## Apo0th3karY

Quote: 





campj said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Bassheads are shamed for not accepting a neutral headphone, like we're not 'true audiophiles'. I think there's two kinds of bassheads; Those who want gobs of bass and that's it, and those who wants lots of fidelity along the entire spectrum, but wants more bass than anything else, and many of us fall in the latter, but all bassheads are lumped within the former. 
  But when you're presented with head-fi, a virtual menu of every headphone under the sun, and so many different people listening to so many different kinds of music, it's entirely subjective how people wish to enjoy their music.
 I'll take bass please, with a healthy side serving of sparkling detailed highs, gorgeous mids, and style to boot.... Oh why my waiter has served me M-100s! How _delightful_


----------



## Craigster75

Quote: 





apo0th3kary said:


> Bassheads are shamed for not accepting a neutral headphone, like we're not 'true audiophiles'. I think there's two kinds of bassheads; Those who want gobs of bass and that's it, and those who wants lots of fidelity along the entire spectrum, but wants more bass than anything else, and many of us fall in the latter, but all bassheads are lumped within the former.
> But when you're presented with head-fi, a virtual menu of every headphone under the sun, and so many different people listening to so many different kinds of music, it's entirely subjective how people wish to enjoy their music.
> I'll take bass please, with a healthy side serving of sparkling detailed highs, gorgeous mids, and style to boot.... Oh why my waiter has served me M-100s! How _delightful_


 

 Well said.  If the M-100 has a high Zagat rating in your basshead restaurant, then the Signature DJ would have a top Michelin rating.


----------



## Typhoon859

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Typhoon, your 2nd narrative paragraph got away from me a bit.
> 1. I don't recall stating the freq response as being cold. Out of the box, by ear, I thought it sounded restrained, the detail was a smidgen held back compared to my brighter tube amp, so instead of cold I thought I was describing a signature erring on the side of dark. I'm newish to finding the vocabulary others use to describe sound (plus I'm really tired at the moment), but I'm more familiar with bright, emphasized mids/highs and dry anemic bass (which I heard with AD700), than I am with a dark, thick bass with recessed highs, type of sound (which I heard with my V-MODA LPs and *woah!* someone's Sony XB500), and with my Ety's, AKGs, Audio Technicas, and what I learned from other headphones, I call the Mont Blanc, overall and after burn-in, neutral because it imparts little coloration consistently noticeable between different headphones.
> 
> 2. The revised E12 boost is basically in the middle between the E11's mode 1 & 2.
> ...


 
  1. "Lastly, when I first got the amp, I was honestly a little disappointed. It sounded technically very accurate, but there was a sort of "coldness" to the sound and I wasn't feeling very emotionally involved. Like the amp was holding back somehow."  
  That's the comment I was referencing.  Now as to your response here on that matter, now YOU have lost me, because the descriptions you are giving are essentially exactly the opposite of what makes sense.  And well, I mean, it's as you stated; you're still getting familiar with the jargon.  The most potentially relevant/accurate description of the sound you are perceiving is in the text that I quoted from your review.  I could go into detail as to specifically what the things I'm talking about are but I don't feel there'd be a point to that as it'd only come off as belittling.
   
  2. Was I confused about that?  I pretty much stated my conclusive standpoint on what I now understand the graph is actually showing.  So like I said, I'm not actually happy about the revision.  It creates more of an unbalance whereas the original, as you yourself mentioned, conforms to the very common roll-off that many cans have, including closed ones actually like usually ones which have a neutral signature (like the Brainwavz HM5's for instance).  
   
  3. Did you look at my list representation of the charts?  Relative to 1 KHz and higher, the lower mids are curving downward.
   
  I never tried to tell you that you thought otherwise of the amp - that you didn't like it.  That is something nobody can do anyway.  I didn't even say that there was anything especially bad about it as not to like it.  In any case, I will probably like it too if I get it.  Overall, I'm just looking for something better for my personal needs at this point, that's all.  That's honestly probably also the reason I'm getting into such detail about it as well.
  Quote: 





j bones said:


> I have found in the few hours I have used it that the bass is too much for majority of my IEM's or lower impedance phones, but for my Q701 it's just right and I wouldn't want it any other way. I really purchased the E12 for the gain since my A/V receiver on max volume wasn't really all too audible. Honestly, a desktop amp would obviously be best for the Q but buying a portable is much easier on my wallet for right now, so I'll stick to that lol.


 
  That makes sense that this would happen.  It's less to do with the amount of boost itself than it does on how it's implemented, and as you said, the effect it has on low impedance headphones/inputs.  Furthermore, you also said it all right there.  I may be in a similar position as you are at the current moment, unfortunately.  I've just been using the E17 as it stands thus far.  It's still OVERALL better than any crap I've ever come across, including studio gear (BS studio gear, but nonetheless...).
   
  Quote: 





chris j said:


> Where did you get these numbers from?
> A lot of these numbers are low enough to be tolerance and calibration errors.


 
  While that may be true, if I were doing the testing I would've taken that into account and otherwise not have posted, believe me, but, those numbers are actually just based off of the charts provided by FiiO.  I think it's the projected frequency response and it's likely in favor of what the goal is rather than true measurements of the result.  It's way too smooth for that.  BUT REGARDLESS OF THE CASE, the bumps and dips in frequencies line up WAAAY too well with the effects that such an amp design would have so whatever tolerance for error there may be, it would probably be more accurately represented with even more emphasis of those curves.  There could actually be many causes for it but one of them in this case is odd-ordered harmonic distortion.  There are more audible characteristics to a reproduction of a sound (due to an amp in this case) than just frequencies, and that's just one of the things I was trying to hint at.  May have been too subtle...
   
  Quote: 





stevesatch said:


> Would this amp be a good match for Brainwavz Hm5 headphones?  I use a C421 now.


 
  I'd wager that yes it would be.  The Brainwavz HM5's are largely what I have been thinking about this amp relative to, just because of its incredibly neutral and revealing signature.  If you want an amp at home though for casual listening purposes, I'd strongly recommend pairing the HM5's with a low impedance output TUBE amplifier.  I have yet to do the research to find one that fits the mark and is reasonably priced.  If you would like, whenever I may do the research, I can get back to you.  PM me if you'd like that (no promises as to when that may be though because I don't even know for myself).
   
  Quote: 





jiminy said:


> Anyone going to comment on the bass boost remark?
> 
> 
> I think what's happened is a couple of people who don't own the amp complained about the lack of boost so it has been changed.
> ...


 
  I would say the same.  Hopefully that happens.  
   
  Quote: 





campj said:


> Say what?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Really?  Out of all the statements, THAT'S the one that irked you and came across as bigotry?  That's pretty much the only one that was based most off of the reality of how it actually is.  Before I knew anything about headphones (probably about 8 years ago), before I even had a decent pair of anything, even then it smelled fishy to me when people were raving about the $10 SkullCandy IEM's that had "amazing bass for the price", which at the time I bought and used btw.  
   
  There are many things though which go behind the entailment of what it means to be a "bass head", none of which at all have anything to do with any sense of "bigotry".  There's nothing wrong with liking bass.  I love it!  At times I may really be in the mood just to be bombarded with it.  A "bass head" where more bass is the overall preference for all there is when it comes to sound implies much more...
   
  Quote: 





bill-p said:


> Well, I maintain my previous position: the current bass boost is good enough. It should not change. It's addressing the low-bass roll-off of certain headphones and systems quite elegantly while keeping frequency response elsewhere even and balanced.
> 
> I hope that if Fiio is changing the bass boost, then they at least offer the old version alongside the new version. Maybe call the new version E13, or E12B, or something.


 
  I've agreed and now the only quirk I have is that, well, being the high end of their line and all, I can't imagine that there would especially need to be a major trade-off to have built in a multi-step switch option for the bass boost, to the likes of which I described in my original post (the one where I listed what the charts represent when thinking in relative terms).  If there is a trade-off, what was it then like in the example of the E11?


----------



## Chris J

typhoon859 said:


> While that may be true, if I were doing the testing I would've taken that into account and otherwise not have posted, believe me, but, those numbers are actually just based off of the charts provided by FiiO.  I think it's the projected frequency response and it's likely in favor of what the goal is rather than true measurements of the result.  It's way too smooth for that.  BUT REGARDLESS OF THE CASE, the bumps and dips in frequencies line up WAAAY too well with the effects that such an amp design would have so whatever tolerance for error there may be, it would probably be more accurately represented with even more emphasis of those curves.  There could actually be many causes for it but one of them in this case is odd-ordered harmonic distortion.  There are more audible characteristics to a reproduction of a sound (due to an amp in this case) than just frequencies, and that's just one of the things I was trying to hint at.  May have been too subtle...




The very slightly rising frequency response surprises me.
With the bass boost switched out, I would have thought that the frequency response would have been ruler flat from 100 Hz to 10 kHz
The only reason why the amp wouldn't be falt right down to DC would be the input coupling caps.


----------



## Typhoon859

Quote: 





chris j said:


> The very slightly rising frequency response surprises me.
> With the bass boost switched out, I would have thought that the frequency response would have been ruler flat from 100 Hz to 10 kHz
> The only reason why the amp wouldn't be falt right down to DC would be the input coupling caps.


 
  You're really surprised by that?  That's pretty much the hardest region to get right with most if not all solid state designs.  The distortion of those frequencies though is merely an effect of the odd-ordered harmonic distortion which occurs most often and largely because of typical methods used for controlling noise (or in essence, for lowering the noise floor).  The most commonly used (and largely accepted) method is known as negative feedback.  Are you aware of these things?  If not, that's probably why it seems to be out of nowhere.  I need to look into the O2 amp more to know for sure about that one, but for instance, the Benchmark DAC1 has the only amp I know in it that achieves practically no harmonic distortion of the sort (although admittedly, I collectively only know so many compared to the amount of different amps there are out there).  As for the technical details for how it's done, I have no idea.  I wouldn't know any better than to even believe if I were told that they somehow perfectly integrated the negative feedback circuit with some sort of variation to it...  I know enough to understand why, but not how, lol.


----------



## Evshrug

Typhoon,
I'm not quite sure what I was thinking this morning, I hadn't slept at all. Kept confusing myself more and more as I tried to focus, lol. I was just trying to figure out what you mean by my "brain burning in the wrong way." I, as anyone, don't like to be "wrong," though instead of asking for you to explain that further I tried to backpedal and say that I *don't* feel the amp, in it's current state, is boring, dull, or what I would call "cold." And I don't think you were disagreeing with me overall. But, could you explain what you meant by my "brain burning in the wrong way?" Thanks!

Oh & point 2 I (also) am still saying I think the current boost is more versatile & generally useful, point 3 I did read your numerical list but I'm more of a visual person anyway, and the E12 graphs are relatively flat (especially compared to headphones) without the boost switch toggled. Where do you define the Hz beginning and endpoints of mids? I avoid describing where one "segment" starts and ends as much as I can.

Edit: the Wikipedia article on THD makes for a decent introduction to negative feedback. Or at least that was my jumping point. I still don't know how to recognize it from a freq chart though.

Apocalypse & Craigster,
As you know from the M-100 thread, there is the technical reality that as the bass levels go higher you sacrifice some tightness and detail (and overshadow the rest of the freq range), BUT I agree with you that good bass and more bass isn't the same thing, and if you favor the bass experience that doesn't necessarily mean you only like one-trick ponies. And that's why I've been telling you guys, the E12 has good bass (& all the rest), but if you want "more" bass then it may not be your cup of tea. I think that when I said a more balanced amping approach works more universally, I ticked off MoeRee (not my intent, but we started arguing a little), but I don't think your bassheads are "wrong."


----------



## Apo0th3karY

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Apocalypse  Apo0th3karY
> 
> 
> 
> ...





> As you know from the M-100 thread, there is the technical reality that as the bass levels go higher you sacrifice some tightness and detail (and overshadow the rest of the freq range), BUT I agree with you that good bass and more bass isn't the same thing, and if you favor the bass experience that doesn't necessarily mean you only like one-trick ponies. And that's why I've been telling you guys, the E12 has good bass (& all the rest), but if you want "more" bass then it may not be your cup of tea. I think that when I said a more balanced amping approach works more universally, I ticked off MoeRee (not my intent, but we started arguing a little), but I don't think your bassheads are "wrong."


 
   
  I'm still want the E12v1 for the QUALITY bass, and the fact that it's a sub bass boost, rather than mid bass, which lends to be more atmospheric and rumbling than it being as bass cannon switch.


----------



## waynes world

Quote: 





apo0th3kary said:


> I'm still want the E12v1 for the QUALITY bass, and the fact that it's a sub bass boost, rather than mid bass, which lends to be more atmospheric and rumbling than it being as bass cannon switch.


 
   
  Are you getting v1?


----------



## Evshrug

apo0th3kary said:


> I'm still want the E12v1 for the QUALITY bass, and the fact that it's a sub bass boost, rather than mid bass, which lends to be more atmospheric and rumbling than it being as bass cannon switch.



Sry for misquoting your name, it was on the last page and I concentrated more on what you said... No offense? Can I just call you Apoth or some other nickname, it would save a lot of time. However, if you demand me to type Apo0th3karY on my iPad every time (takes almost as long as a full sentence, or just this parenthesized thought), then my name is Bannakaffalatta!
[Video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avFWtveTX3c&sns=em[/Video]

But on a more serious note, yes, I do feel the E12 has quality, punchy bass along with similar qualities across the freq spectrum


----------



## Typhoon859

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Typhoon,
> I'm not quite sure what I was thinking this morning, I hadn't slept at all. Kept confusing myself more and more as I tried to focus, lol. I was just trying to figure out what you mean by my "brain burning in the wrong way." I, as anyone, don't like to be "wrong," though instead of asking for you to explain that further I tried to backpedal and say that I *don't* feel the amp, in it's current state, is boring, dull, or what I would call "cold." And I don't think you were disagreeing with me overall. But, could you explain what you meant by my "brain burning in the wrong way?" Thanks!
> 
> Oh & point 2 I (also) am still saying I think the current boost is more versatile & generally useful, point 3 I did read your numerical list but I'm more of a visual person anyway, and the E12 graphs are relatively flat (especially compared to headphones) without the boost switch toggled. Where do you define the Hz beginning and endpoints of mids? I avoid describing where one "segment" starts and ends as much as I can.
> ...


 
  Oh, lol, my bad.  Yeah, I wasn't really disagreeing with you.  What I meant by the whole brain burning in the other way thing was simply to say that rather than hear truly the effect that the amp had on the sound over time, you heard it right initially and over time started to hear more what you wanted to.  In regards to the actual burn-in of the components, I can't really comment on that, but I can promise that it wouldn't effect the overall sound you were perceiving.  The harmonic balance between even and odd multiples is actually one of the most influential factors on our perception, more so than frequency response, and that's why many (including myself before I understood what was happening) find it a hard time to express how they're perceiving the sound since it feels wrong to state the factually contradicting (like frequency charts).  That lack of presence you were trying to describe in your review had exactly to do with this - the fact that the odd-ordered harmonics are being distorted and are creating a disproportion in the balance of the sound/timbre, creating more prominence over the even ordered harmonics.  It even makes sense that Muse sounded good (at least comparatively) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
   
  Our ears use that harmonic content to determine very different things.  I'll leave it very vague by saying that even harmonics are what's pleasant to us, and when distorted (like tube guitar amps), they create that perceived fullness.  I think you would actually be interested in this so I'm going to make an attachment of an article that goes over pretty much these characteristics and how they directly play into our perception of them.  Many new things may start making sense due to what I can tell the good ears that you have.  Things you very likely perceived will now line up with the some of the actual technical stuff going on.
   
  You mentioned that you're not able to tell this apart on the graph.  That's because you can't.  There are so many factors that play into the sound and that's why I always hate people that don't know how to use their ears and rant on how good or bad something else based on some random measurements they found somewhere which usually have little to no baring towards what they're arguing.  
   
  Finally, in terms of where one section ends and the other begins, there are actually generalizations but unless you know the effect frequencies have already, describing it only works IMO by actually demonstrating the effects first.
   
  EDIT: Attachment removed due to misunderstanding of what was it's current purpose.


----------



## SteveSatch

Quote: 





imackler said:


> Is there something you don't like about the C421?


 

 I like the C421.  I just wondering if this is worth trying with easy to drive Brainwavz Hm5.


----------



## Typhoon859

Quote: 





stevesatch said:


> I like the C421.  I just wondering if this is worth trying with easy to drive Brainwavz Hm5.


 
  Not sure if you saw my reply to you in the long list of quoted posts here.


----------



## Evshrug

Typhoon859,
On the other end of not liking to read "wrong," is the positive response to someone saying "you've got good ears." Lmao, thanks, but of course I just hear what I hear, and honestly I know that I don't have great hearing (you should hear my sister's ability to sing! I'm convinced she can have such great pitch & tone in part due to her ears).

But on a more serious note, thanks for taking the time to explain and share info. That's my favourite part about head-fi, so many people willing to share experience and "pay it forward." I'm going to study that PDF, and may even take a crack at trying to explain it (or just repost it) in my Iif I knew then..." thread I've been working on to "pay forward" things people have shared with me.

I do happen to prefer the tube hybrid amp I have, but that's a wall-powered desktop amp that cost twice as much, and it's just a prototype for what the builder intends to release to everyone via eBay some day. Anyway, I'm going to enjoy some Cowboy Junkies and sleep now, be bright and sharp tomorrow 

Ps can I measure output impedance using a digital multimeter (and headphones)? I happen to have one for tube rolling, would be great to put it to more uses


----------



## Typhoon859

Evshrug,
   
  Well, I mean, that would depend on the digital multimeter now wouldn't it?..  I can't really give a definitive answer on that.
   
  In terms of the PDF, there's no need to study it.  One good dedicated read through it I think would be enough unless there are some specifics in there you could just look back at later when and if you forget something maybe specific.


----------



## Apo0th3karY

evshrug said:


> apo0th3kary said:
> 
> 
> > I'm still want the E12v1 for the QUALITY bass, and the fact that it's a sub bass boost, rather than mid bass, which lends to be more atmospheric and rumbling than it being as bass cannon switch.
> ...




Lol I do have a rather complicated user name that happens to include a typo, but for ease of reference you can call me Apo0. Lol. No offense taken, Bannakaffalatta, all in good fun.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





typhoon859 said:


> You're really surprised by that?  That's pretty much the hardest region to get right with most if not all solid state designs.  The distortion of those frequencies though is merely an effect of the odd-ordered harmonic distortion which occurs most often and largely because of typical methods used for controlling noise (or in essence, for lowering the noise floor).  The most commonly used (and largely accepted) method is known as negative feedback.  Are you aware of these things?  If not, that's probably why it seems to be out of nowhere.  I need to look into the O2 amp more to know for sure about that one, but for instance, the Benchmark DAC1 has the only amp I know in it that achieves practically no harmonic distortion of the sort (although admittedly, I collectively only know so many compared to the amount of different amps there are out there).  As for the technical details for how it's done, I have no idea.  I wouldn't know any better than to even believe if I were told that they somehow perfectly integrated the negative feedback circuit with some sort of variation to it...  I know enough to understand why, but not how, lol.



  
 Ahhhh,
 I see where you're coming from now.
  
 It is fairly easy to design a soild state amp with extremely flat frequency response.
 Example:   take a look at the frequency response for the E17 and the E09K.
 As you have pointed out, don't confuse high frequency response with distortion of the higher frequencies.
  
 As for the distortion, with proper choice of Op Amps and proper design techniques it is not difficult to design a low distortion headphone amp.  It just takes some work.  In theory, the E12 should have THD as low as the O2 or Benchmark DAC1.
  
 Feedback is not used to control noise, but it can be used to lower distortion, decrease output impedance, increase input impedance, control DC offset, etc, etc.
  
 That "Solid vs. Tube Amps" .pdf appears to be written by somone with a good knowledge of Music Theory and Psychoacoustics but a very poor understanding of Electronic Theory.
 All tube amps use some form of negative feedback.
 But it is true that generally speaking a tube amp will use much less feedback than a typical soild state amp.
 The FiiO E12 uses two integrated circuits which use _*a lot*_ of feedback.
  
 The "Solid State vs. Tube Amps" author seems to have a reasonable good grasp of one aspect of solid state vs. tube amp design: there is more to it than the fact that one design uses transistors and the other design uses tubes.
 For example:
 Since tubes are large, run hot and are expensive and transistors are cheaper and smaller, a tube amp will usually have a lot less tubes than a solid state amp will have transistors. Therefore the design approach is quite different.
  
 BTW, I'm an Electrical Engineer with over 25 years of practical experience, including one year designing Analog Signal processors for the Navy.


Note to Apo0:
Toronto! My kind of town!
I used to live there!
Cheers


----------



## Typhoon859

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Ahhhh,
> I see where you're coming from now.
> 
> It is fairly easy to design a soild state amp with extremely flat frequency response.
> ...


 
  Oh, very cool.  And now you hit the nail right on the head.  I don't know how to best express this to you so that you know my legitimate interest in Electronics Theory & Electronics in general, if it even matters for the point here, but basically apart from that, I'm actually fully involved in a different path, and the time spent on finding, transferring to, and finishing a degree in Electrical Engineering at just the right school, taking precedence over my involvement in audio, just isn't the right thing for me to do currently.  I am actually the author of that PDF (I'd love to add more of the Electrical Engineering side of things with revisions that would then very likely need to take place), and I'm really looking for a way to learn.  It really plays hand-in-hand with what I do, and I'd like to be able to be as much an engineer in what I do as anything else.  It's largely the foundation of how I think anyway.  
   
  All that being said, the implication throughout this I guess would be that in addition to the main focus of my career, I'm looking for my involvement in electronics to be a serious avocation of mine to work along side everything else.  The main purpose for my learning, knowledge, and ability in electronics would be to have the skill set to properly understand any schematic, the workings of mostly any piece of gear/component, and be able to modify things to my whim, as it all pertains to audio.  The reason I didn't just fully go into the electronics field entirely is because when it comes to actual work, I'm just not entirely as interested in designing components for the rest of my life (although I do have interest) as I am interested in understanding them and interacting with their potential mechanics.  Then there is obviously the creative side of things which needs to follow for me as that is what's my greatest passion (music).  I'm willing to put in whatever the cost/amount of time that it takes to learn, but it just has to be based on my own clock (at least at the present time).  Just to give you maybe slightly more of an idea of my interests/abilities on that front, I also build custom computers and have never run into any problem that I couldn't troubleshoot (and I've seen some crazy and very abnormal things), most cases in which others were clueless.  I feel that's because while others relied on what they were told, I relied on my actual understanding of the components and what there is to them (despite electrically not fully knowing what's going on, as was always my weakness I'd say).  I know the very basics and don't have the leisure to waste my time poking at random sources only to gain 10% (as it is of relevance to my needs) of the often little that they have to offer in the first place.  There is a very well known problem of Engineers often not being the best of writers and/or teachers XD.  
   
  So, if we could bring this to PM, might you help me?  Would you maybe have any suggestions?  You know, like whatever possibly has come to mind whilst reading this, lol.  I would REALLY appreciate any input, and thanks either way!  Sincerely.
   
   
  PS- I left the document nameless (with that being said, I obviously don't mind it being linked to me) because even though I'm proud of most of the information and perspective I was able to provide (and I really try to avoid stating things I am not at least 90% confident in, which usually comes after much contemplation and deliberation), I don't like putting anything out there until I also feel that whatever it is also represents at least 90% of the substance that the material could possibly have to offer and/or imply.  In other words, what I put out needs to cover at least 90% of the vision I have for it, or in essence, represent an idea to its greatest potential.  This isn't because I'm afraid or obsessed, but more because it otherwise is just pointless and/or useless in its existence IMO (not so much the case here, but certainly so when it comes to my ability to compose, perform, and produce a song for instance).  It's the equivalent of a band releasing their work before they even know or have built their art to the point which fulfills a possible vision, that is, if and when there even is one.  And as a side note, when I say pointless, I mean pointless as it pertains to having a positive effect.  That is to say that as an example, pandering to the greatest common denominator as it presently stands with whatever you plan to put out, there'd be a point in, but it would be of nothing that I'd ever want to have anything to do with (for reasons which are too tangential unfortunately, but philosophically crucially important in my view).


----------



## MrScratch

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Can I just call you Apoth or some other nickname, it would save a lot of time. However, if you demand me to type Apo0th3karY on my iPad every time (takes almost as long as a full sentence, or just this parenthesized thought), then my name is Bannakaffalatta!


 
   

   
  Apo0th3karY Apo0th3karY Apo0th3karY Apo0th3karY Apo0th3karY
   

   
  j/k
   
   
  I wonder when this unit and the X3 will be available in Europe, I can't wait anymore.


----------



## Evshrug

Typhoon,
Somewhere between the 1st and 2nd page, I could tell that the doc was basically a 2nd draft by a university student. I was going to ask if it was yours. It does contain good info and, perhaps because it is still freshly new-ish in your mind, I like that it includes "foundational info" based on connecting the concepts to other fields of study (namely, music and psychoacoustics). However, a few sentences could have a little better clarity and stylistic flow massaged out of them to create a more finished piece. Are you turning it in for a grade? I could make a couple non-engineer suggestions if you'd like.

I used to play violin in the school orchestra, I've also built my own computer (unfortunately I don't know the software coding I used to make the OS X work), and I spent my first college semester (in 2005) as a mechanical engineering major. I would've actually greatly enjoyed circuit design and product design, but bugger all calculus derivatives  I actually transferred over to art and graphic design, lol, and finished my degree in that  *PS:* I would HIGHLY recommend taking far-sighted internships that will either offer you a job out of college, or provide connections to someone who can.

You share of yourself, I share my life 
-----

MrScratch,
Veeeery clever! I was actually thinking of looking for that to be clever and surprise Apo0th3karY, but I thought it would be more fun to share some Dr Who  However, I will poke fun and point out that the typo in the name indicates even the author has trouble typing it  that's basically the trouble with all l337 speak anyway.


----------



## Apo0th3karY

Haha yeah its pretty bad I have problems spelling my own name, maybe I need to update my spellchecker. It is my DJ name so the numbers are less 1337 and more so to grab attention. But believe it or not this is the second account of mine with the same typo, but this one was on purpose because my first head-fi account had a typo in the email so I couldn't access that account at all. 

I'm not one to be ashamed of humility so its just a fun anecdote haha.


----------



## Evshrug

Hey it's cool man, you enjoying those M-100s with your DJ'ing? I can see why you'd be served by a portable amp.


----------



## Apo0th3karY

They're very nice for DJing, the punch of the bass kick drum, and the snappy snares along with having detailed hi hats all help to beat match, and they take very well to being amped by my mixer, I prefer the sound of them through my mixer, which has multiple DACs for 4 decks and two channels each as well as the hp out, however, its not functional as a desktop amp/dac unless I'm DJing unfortunately. 

Anyways this is waaaay ot lol.


----------



## Typhoon859

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Typhoon,
> Somewhere between the 1st and 2nd page, I could tell that the doc was basically a 2nd draft by a university student. I was going to ask if it was yours. It does contain good info and, perhaps because it is still freshly new-ish in your mind, I like that it includes "foundational info" based on connecting the concepts to other fields of study (namely, music and psychoacoustics). However, a few sentences could have a little better clarity and stylistic flow massaged out of them to create a more finished piece. Are you turning it in for a grade? I could make a couple non-engineer suggestions if you'd like.
> 
> I used to play violin in the school orchestra, I've also built my own computer (unfortunately I don't know the software coding I used to make the OS X work), and I spent my first college semester (in 2005) as a mechanical engineering major. I would've actually greatly enjoyed circuit design and product design, but bugger all calculus derivatives
> ...


 
  Ok, cool.  I mean, the point wasn't how it's written.  The point was the information.  I'm assuming you read it all yet you didn't really comment on whether you got anything from it or not.  
   
  Reading it now, it starts out rougher than I remembered and yeah, some of it can be written better.  I was considering revising it before uploading it but it was besides the point and I was quite busy.  I always get sucked into forums and something like that would be the reason why.  However, I posted it thinking you'd be engaged by it.  I didn't think you'd be distracted by something like that.  And by the way, I always include foundational info.  It's not by accident.  The point is for mostly everybody to be able to pick it up and be able to understand it.  That's actually something I greatly value.  It creates a nicer flow when the basics are connected with the point being made and when it comes to teaching at the very least, that's always the best kind and where you learn the most from.  If I knew you personally and it was written directly to you, I probably would have written it differently because obviously that's the way you've interpreted it, from that point of view.  
   
  Thanks for the recommendation by the way.  I'm on a very non-traditional path though, but if possible, it still may include an internship if I could land one of value relative to what I'm doing.  I took Calculus too btw, all the way up to Advanced Calc 2; hopefully it won't end up a waste because as it stands, I don't know if I'll be able to apply it towards any possible degree I'd be finishing.  
   
  But anyway, sorry if I was the cause of it but this is obviously off topic and for new people coming in to read this, probably inconsiderate XD.  That PDF pretty much explains exactly what you stated you were hearing initially and it wasn't a coincidence.


----------



## Angular Mo

Quote: 





mach-x said:


> Read the first 60 pages of this thread and had to fast forward through the rest. It just got too aggravating seeing the same questions/issues cropping up.
> First off, for the bass craving folks, stop using icrap to play your music. Not that ipods/iphones/ipads are bad, they are not they offer fine quality dacs and frequency response.
> What they don't offer is end user sound customization. It's like using all weather tires in the winter, it sort of works but isn't optimized for the power user.
> Spend $30 and get yourself a sansa clip+. And then add the rockbox firmware for the ultimate in audio customization. Linear DAC's are pennies on the dollar nowadays (contrary to what the folks at zanden audio would have you believe), and the sansa sandisk clip+ offers a fully linear dac equal to the ipod/itouch/iphone. As tested by nwavguy, as well as many others.
> What rockbox offers you is the ability to set a low 'shelf', in the digital domain, ie, one frequency where you want the boost to begin and no frequencies above that will be affected. And you can boost it up to 24 db. Naturally, it also allows you to set your precut to match that to avoid digital clipping. THEN allow the E12 to work its magic in the analog domain with its prodigious power output. Rockbox on the sansa clip even has user adjustable crossfeed settings as well as channel seperation settings. Honestly, a rockboxed sansa clip replaces $1000's of dollars in seperate components, for $30. And then you can let the prodigious power output of the E12 work its magic.


 
  very informative, thank you, I may go buy a sansa clip.


----------



## SteveSatch

Quote: 





typhoon859 said:


> Not sure if you saw my reply to you in the long list of quoted posts here.


 

 Thanks.  I had missed what you wrote.


----------



## SteveSatch

How long until available on Amazon.com?


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





stevesatch said:


> How long until available on Amazon.com?


 
  Whenever Micca wants
   
  Micca Store =Micca Distributor on Amazon
   
  They will sometimes put a product on Amazon
   
  But they may not choose to just yet. Putting it on Amazon means there will be less profit for them.


----------



## jiminy

They don't seem to care about profits.
They don't even reply to my email.


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





jiminy said:


> They don't seem to care about profits.
> They don't even reply to my email.


 
  Micca Store is closely affiliated with many Asian sellers. Of which many have just spent CNY.
   
  Did you call them or email them at the adresses listed?


----------



## Analoog

How JDS O2  and C421 compares with FiiO E12?


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





analoog said:


> How JDS O2 compares with FiiO E12?


 
  The O2 is seen as a transparent neutral amp mainly made for desktop while the E12 is a pocket amp.
   
  I've had the O2 beofre. I will be getting a custom O2 later this week and I will update my E12 review with impressions between my O2 and itself
   
   
  Only problem is that my unit is a bit...special.


----------



## Typhoon859

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> The O2 is seen as a transparent neutral amp mainly made for desktop while the E12 is a pocket amp.
> 
> I've had the O2 beofre. I will be getting a custom O2 later this week and I will update my E12 review with impressions between my O2 and itself
> 
> ...


 
  Could you elaborate on what makes it special?  Curious to see if it lines up with what I want done to it.


----------



## SteveSatch

Anyone with an E12 want to trade for a JDSLabs C421 with 8620 chip?  I'm going to get it up in the for sale section so I can buy an E12.  A trade would be even easier.


----------



## Dyaems

i think everyone is happy with their E12 at the moment, you should sell the C421 and buy an E12 instead!


----------



## SonicBoom1008

Where is the E12 available for purchase? I haven't been able to find it anywhere.


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





sonicboom1008 said:


> Where is the E12 available for purchase? I haven't been able to find it anywhere.


 
  http://www.miccastore.com/fiio-e12-mont-blanc-portable-headphone-amplifier-p-101.html


----------



## jiminy

bowei006 said:


> Micca Store is closely affiliated with many Asian sellers. Of which many have just spent CNY.
> 
> Did you call them or email them at the adresses listed?




I thought micca was an American store, in my expieriance it does not take more than a week to reply to an email. James fiio managed it a lot quicker

For the record, i have no problem with fiio, I found his communications to be punctual and very professional even over CNY when they were on holiday.


----------



## pngwn

Quote: 





jiminy said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  "Micca Store is *closely affiliated* with many Asian sellers."
   
  Micca is indeed in the US. I ordered my E12 from them and it shipped out from Virginia.


----------



## Angular Mo

Anyone know how an iBasso P4 Warbler amp compares to the Fiio E12?
   
  I own the P4, but also admire the reports of the fine fit and finish of the Fiio E12.


----------



## Bill-P

Quote: 





analoog said:


> How JDS O2  and C421 compares with FiiO E12?


 
   
  Perfect timing! I just had my O2 comparison added to the bottom of 1st post, please check:
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/649174/review-fiio-e12-vs-c-c-bh
   
  I think O2 is still overall the better amp by majority vote.
   
  Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> The O2 is seen as a transparent neutral amp mainly made for desktop while the E12 is a pocket amp.
> 
> I've had the O2 beofre. I will be getting a custom O2 later this week and I will update my E12 review with impressions between my O2 and itself
> 
> Only problem is that my unit is a bit...special.


 
   
  Yeah, I can't wait to read about that!
   
  Quote: 





stevesatch said:


> Anyone with an E12 want to trade for a JDSLabs C421 with 8620 chip?  I'm going to get it up in the for sale section so I can buy an E12.  A trade would be even easier.


 
   
  You know, I may be interested. I'm just about done reviewing my E12, and I'd love to get the C421 again, since my G.A.S. (Gear Acquisition Syndrome) is acting up again after the meet.


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





bill-p said:


> Perfect timing! I just had my O2 comparison added to the bottom of 1st post, please check:
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/649174/review-fiio-e12-vs-c-c-bh
> 
> I think O2 is still overall the better amp by majority vote.
> ...


 
  Nice comparison 
   
  I would have used a much better DAC considering the D3 isn't really for music purposes but it's a fixed medium so that works anyway.
   
  A better amp can mean anything. I have many things that are 'better' but not ones that I prefer. I would prefer to listen to a $50 set of earbuds I have as opposed to a few Heir's I am current reviewing. 
   
  I'll get it soon


----------



## Bill-P

By the way, the comparison with O2 wasn't with the D3. It was done with a mix of ODAC, my iPhone 5, and directly from my MacBook. Let me note that in the thread, too. Thanks for catching that!


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





bill-p said:


> By the way, the comparison with O2 wasn't with the D3. It was done with a mix of ODAC, my iPhone 5, and directly from my MacBook. Let me note that in the thread, too. Thanks for catching that!


 
  Oh no.
   
  I read and was referencing to the CC and the E12 using the D3 as the DAC medium.
   
  But yeah. Noting is fine.
   
  You should have posted your review thread. Or did I miss it? I'm sorry if I missed the post.


----------



## Bill-P

I think you missed it, but then people were discussing a lot of things the last few pages, so that's unavoidable.
   
  And I did try the comparison between E12 and C&C BH directly out of my MacBook. The result was worse for BH because the MacBook's output has more treble than D3's, and C&C BH was just adding even more to the flares. So D3 was the handicap I would like to give to BH.


----------



## feverfive

I'm not even in the market for a portable amp, but I'm still interested in this.  Wonder how it compares to the Headstage Arrow 4G


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





bill-p said:


> I think you missed it, but then people were discussing a lot of things the last few pages, so that's unavoidable.
> 
> And I did try the comparison between E12 and C&C BH directly out of my MacBook. The result was worse for BH because the MacBook's output has more treble than D3's, and C&C BH was just adding even more to the flares. So D3 was the handicap I would like to give to BH.


 
   
  I see, thanks for the comparisons, I'm sure many were looking for them.
   
  I'll have an O2 and ANDES comparison later these 2 weeks. I did a temp exchange with a friend for his E11, L11, and GR07 and so he got to try out the ANDES too. He loves it.


----------



## KamijoIsMyHero

miccastore seems to only ship to US, no option for CANADA in the country list, is the E12 just restricted to US so far?


----------



## bowei006

If you got to FiiO's website, you can check what the official Canadian distro's are.
   
  I just checked for you, no authorized Canadian seller carries it at the moment.
   
  your only option
   
MP4Nation
   
 
   
  Find a U.S carrier that has it and ask for Canadian Shipping. Maybe PM/call up Micca and ask them about it. Tuesday that is in case they aren't in Monday, but if they are, you can try Monday.
   
  .
   
  I was quite surprised that M4nation didn't have it. I was kinda sure James said they shipped some orders to MP4Nation as well? Maybe I heard it wrong and they were never sent anyway or they sold out?
   
  Edit:
  Just searched this thread for mp4 and mp4nation. It seems James probably never said anything about shipment of E12 to them? Weird. Being in the U.S made me think it was easy to buy but I guess that's not the case.
   
  If you really want it,  you can get friend in U.S to buy it(Free micca store shipping) and then send it up to you for another $7 to $10.


----------



## KamijoIsMyHero

I was drawn in with the free shipping, I thought maybe this product would be small enough to bypass customs but yea I checked the regular shop where I buy my fiio stuff from, they don't have any listed in their website yet, I'll give them an e-mail and see if they plan to get them here


----------



## SoupRKnowva

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> BTW, the LME49600 can change to another working mode which will consume even more power but the sound will be even better, but the battery life will drop to less than 10 hours. there are not secret in the analog electronics technical , the true is that usually better sound quality need more power


 
   
  The quiescent current goes up by like 50% in high bandwidth mode, but would it be possible to mod the e12 to do this? all it takes is to either lift one of the pads or to solder a resistor across two of the pads of the LME49600


----------



## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





souprknowva said:


> The quiescent current goes up by like 50% in high bandwidth mode, but would it be possible to mod the e12 to do this? all it takes is to either lift one of the pads or to solder a resistor across two of the pads of the LME49600


 
   
  Yes, it is quite easy if you known how to solder SMD components.


----------



## putente

Quote: 





angular mo said:


> Anyone know how an iBasso P4 Warbler amp compares to the Fiio E12?
> 
> I own the P4, but also admire the reports of the fine fit and finish of the Fiio E12.


 
   
   
  The P4 is on a completely different level of performance! Basically, you can make it sound like you want, due to it's full opamp costumization. So, comparing it to the E12 isn't really fair. The E12 is a great amp for the price, but it can reach the P4's performance level. I have my P4 with a custom opamp configuration to my liking and it's just awesome. But I have an E12 too and I use both, as it's a "fun" sounding amp... As for the size comparision, I use my portable amps with an iPod Classic through a LOD cable. The P4 is a bit short and bulky to use with the Classic and the E12 is a bit too lengthy (although it's width and height are perfect for the Classic)...


----------



## Chris J

kamijoismyhero said:


> miccastore seems to only ship to US, no option for CANADA in the country list, is the E12 just restricted to US so far?




The Headfone Shop in Toronto should be stocking them sooner or later.


----------



## Apo0th3karY

chris j said:


> kamijoismyhero said:
> 
> 
> > miccastore seems to only ship to US, no option for CANADA in the country list, is the E12 just restricted to US so far?
> ...




that's exciting, but they'll have the revised bass boost right?


----------



## Will-8

Quote: 





bill-p said:


> Perfect timing! I just had my O2 comparison added to the bottom of 1st post, please check:
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/649174/review-fiio-e12-vs-c-c-bh
> 
> I think O2 is still overall the better amp by majority vote.
> ...


 
   
  Quote: 





analoog said:


> How JDS O2  and C421 compares with FiiO E12?


 
   
  Nice review.
   
  Since JDS has replaced C421 with the better C5 and claims that it matches the O2 performance, why not compare C5 with E12 instead? Both are newly launched and in pre-order stage. I am sitting on the fence on which to buy. Waiting for more reviews between the two.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





typhoon859 said:


> Oh, very cool.  And now you hit the nail right on the head.  I don't know how to best express this to you so that you know my legitimate interest in Electronics Theory & Electronics in general, if it even matters for the point here, but basically apart from that, I'm actually fully involved in a different path, and the time spent on finding, transferring to, and finishing a degree in Electrical Engineering at just the right school, taking precedence over my involvement in audio, just isn't the right thing for me to do currently.  I am actually the author of that PDF (I'd love to add more of the Electrical Engineering side of things with revisions that would then very likely need to take place), and I'm really looking for a way to learn.  It really plays hand-in-hand with what I do, and I'd like to be able to be as much an engineer in what I do as anything else.  It's largely the foundation of how I think anyway.
> 
> All that being said, the implication throughout this I guess would be that in addition to the main focus of my career, I'm looking for my involvement in electronics to be a serious avocation of mine to work along side everything else.  The main purpose for my learning, knowledge, and ability in electronics would be to have the skill set to properly understand any schematic, the workings of mostly any piece of gear/component, and be able to modify things to my whim, as it all pertains to audio.  The reason I didn't just fully go into the electronics field entirely is because when it comes to actual work, I'm just not entirely as interested in designing components for the rest of my life (although I do have interest) as I am interested in understanding them and interacting with their potential mechanics.  Then there is obviously the creative side of things which needs to follow for me as that is what's my greatest passion (music).  I'm willing to put in whatever the cost/amount of time that it takes to learn, but it just has to be based on my own clock (at least at the present time).  Just to give you maybe slightly more of an idea of my interests/abilities on that front, I also build custom computers and have never run into any problem that I couldn't troubleshoot (and I've seen some crazy and very abnormal things), most cases in which others were clueless.  I feel that's because while others relied on what they were told, I relied on my actual understanding of the components and what there is to them (despite electrically not fully knowing what's going on, as was always my weakness I'd say).  I know the very basics and don't have the leisure to waste my time poking at random sources only to gain 10% (as it is of relevance to my needs) of the often little that they have to offer in the first place.  There is a very well known problem of Engineers often not being the best of writers and/or teachers XD.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Hey,
  Ummmm, I hope I wasn't too harsh? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  I just assumed it was something you found on the 'Net!
  Anyway, no problem, I wouldn't mind offering up a few suggestions.
  Sorry for the delay in replying, I was out doing a few things, visiting family, etc.
  I'll send you a PM!
  Cheers,
  CJ


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





apo0th3kary said:


> that's exciting, but they'll have the revised bass boost right?


 
   
  I have no idea!
  But it's a good question!
  I assume it may take a while for FiiO to put the "new, unimproved" version into production anyway, so, you never know, they may get the "original, classic" version into stock.
  I was going to fire an e-mail off to them to see when they expected some stock, get myself at the front of the line, maybe?


----------



## Greed

Quote: 





will-8 said:


> Nice review.
> 
> Since JDS has replaced C421 with the better C5 and claims that it matches the O2 performance, why not compare C5 with E12 instead? Both are newly launched and in pre-order stage. I am sitting on the fence on which to buy. Waiting for more reviews between the two.


 

 C5 hasn't come out yet, and is only in the process of pre-order. The E12, is already out. The comparison will be very interesting though.


----------



## Bill-P

Quote: 





will-8 said:


> Nice review.
> 
> Since JDS has replaced C421 with the better C5 and claims that it matches the O2 performance, why not compare C5 with E12 instead? Both are newly launched and in pre-order stage. I am sitting on the fence on which to buy. Waiting for more reviews between the two.


 
   
  Yeah, as mentioned, C5 is still in pre-order, and I have no idea when I'd receive mine, so the comparison would have to be made way later.
   
  Meanwhile, I have the opportunity to review C421 within the week, so... I think I'll do that first, and then maybe trade the C421 later on for a C5 to review.


----------



## Angular Mo

Quote: 





putente said:


> The P4 is on a completely different level of performance! Basically, you can make it sound like you want, due to it's full opamp costumization. So, comparing it to the E12 isn't really fair. The E12 is a great amp for the price, but it can reach the P4's performance level. I have my P4 with a custom opamp configuration to my liking and it's just awesome. But I have an E12 too and I use both, as it's a "fun" sounding amp... As for the size comparision, I use my portable amps with an iPod Classic through a LOD cable. The P4 is a bit short and bulky to use with the Classic and the E12 is a bit too lengthy (although it's width and height are perfect for the Classic)...


 
  @putente,
  Thank you so very much!  Yours was precisely the type of comment I was hoping for, and was consistent with my thinking.  The E12 just seems, to me, to be a fun amp. 
  The fit and finish of a device that I hold in my hand is often very important (though not with the P4 due to its customization abilities.)
  BTW, I ordered HiFlight's TopKit today.


----------



## akash neagi

I have one simple question....
 Fiio E17 Vs. Fiio E12.....
 Differences.....
  Thanks...


----------



## jiminy

[VIDEO][/VIDEO]Thanks for the mention of the c5 (that give me some reading to do)
With the bass boost looking more unlikely to be useful the c5 might be an option.

As for delivery dates, it looks like the c5 gets it official release first, at least worldwide.


----------



## Typhoon859

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Hey,
> Ummmm, I hope I wasn't too harsh?
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Not a problem!  Thanks.  
   
  But by the way, none of my reply was regarding anything you said about the paper.  Only the "PS" was a direct tangent from that.  I was otherwise actually happy with the remark of it not being from the perspective of an electrical engineer (as it's true) and considering that you yourself are one, all that was said was essentially just a plea for some possible guidance with regards to my expressed situation.


----------



## SteveSatch

Can't wait to get my E12 that I traded my C421 amp for.  Might get a C&C BH sometime in the future to have a smaller sized amp too.  Has anyone heard if Fiio has changed their decision on the bass boost change?  It sounds like the version 1 bass boost will be a better match for me anyway.


----------



## kskwerl

Where are you guys buying these from?


----------



## campj

http://www.miccastore.com/fiio-e12-mont-blanc-portable-headphone-amplifier-p-101.html
  http://www.miccastore.com/fiio-e12-mont-blanc-portable-headphone-amplifier-p-101.html
  http://www.miccastore.com/fiio-e12-mont-blanc-portable-headphone-amplifier-p-101.html


----------



## kskwerl

Quote: 





campj said:


> http://www.miccastore.com/fiio-e12-mont-blanc-portable-headphone-amplifier-p-101.html
> http://www.miccastore.com/fiio-e12-mont-blanc-portable-headphone-amplifier-p-101.html
> http://www.miccastore.com/fiio-e12-mont-blanc-portable-headphone-amplifier-p-101.html


 
  wait where? lol jk thanks man


----------



## campj

I have one, I like it. Worth $130, that's for sure!


----------



## Dyaems

me jelly still waiting for a miracle for me to own a v1


----------



## Apo0th3karY

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Gotta beat me to the front of the line first 
  I've yet to go to HFS, I've only known about the place for a few months, just haven't had the time to go there


----------



## kskwerl

Can anyone suggest a good portable dac to pair with this>?


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





apo0th3kary said:


> Gotta beat me to the front of the line first
> I've yet to go to HFS, I've only known about the place for a few months, just haven't had the time to go there


 
   
  Damn!
  Since you live there, you get a place in line before me! LOL! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Seriously, The Headfone Shop is a very small store, but they have a pretty decent selection of headphones that you can actually try out before you buy! Very cool.
  I haven't bought any 'phones there, but I did pick up a FiiO E09K there. Great service.


----------



## bareyb

Wouldn't it be AWESOME if FiiO wold take the guts of this new E12 and stuff them into the E17? Add a midrange control and you'd have the most versatile, powerful, AMP/DAC on the planet. THAT would be heaven for me and the ONLY thing that could get my E17 away from me.


----------



## Apo0th3karY

Quote: 





bareyb said:


> Wouldn't it be AWESOME if FiiO wold take the guts of this new E12 and stuff them into the E17? Add a midrange control and you'd have the most versatile, powerful, AMP/DAC on the planet. THAT would be heaven for me and the ONLY thing that could get my E17 away from me.


 
   
  They can only go up from here


----------



## Greed

Quote: 





kskwerl said:


> Can anyone suggest a good portable dac to pair with this>?


 

 CLAS db


----------



## kskwerl

Quote: 





greed said:


> CLAS db


 
  on a 160 dollar amp, no way jose


----------



## Sko0byDoo

Quote: 





bareyb said:


> Wouldn't it be AWESOME if FiiO wold take the guts of this new E12 and stuff them into the E17? Add a midrange control and you'd have the most versatile, powerful, AMP/DAC on the planet. THAT would be heaven for me and the ONLY thing that could get my E17 away from me.


 
   
  e18 or e19 would be like what you wanted...the only problem, e18 in summer, e19 winter.


----------



## jazzman7

akash neagi said:


> I have one simple question....
> 
> Fiio E17 Vs. Fiio E12.....
> 
> ...




Let me see if I can keep it short/sweet...

E12: amp only, very powerful, larger, thinner, slightly heavier, volume knob, bass boost only, great for hard to drive headphones, high-end amp feel
E17: amp+DAC, decent power, smaller, thicker, slightly lighter, buttons+display, full bass/treble, great all-arounder, integrated amp feel

I have both and prefer the E12 for on-the-move DAP listening and the E17 for laptop listening.

And the last bit of trivia: the boxes they come in are exactly the same size.


----------



## jazzman7

Double post


----------



## akash neagi

jazzman7 said:


> Let me see if I can keep it short/sweet...
> 
> E12: amp only, very powerful, larger, thinner, slightly heavier, volume knob, bass boost only, great for hard to drive headphones, high-end amp feel
> E17: amp+DAC, decent power, smaller, thicker, slightly lighter, buttons+display, full bass/treble, great all-arounder, integrated amp feel
> ...



 How different is the sound quality? ??


----------



## Greed

Quote: 





akash neagi said:


> How different is the sound quality? ??


 

 Just going on what I remember about the E17, the sound quality wasn't much better than the E11. In fact, I preferred the E11 to the E17, and others here do as well. The E12 is a much more refined and neutral sounding amp compared to both the E11 and E17. After hearing the E12, the E11 and E17 both sound too dark and muddy. It is a clear step up sonically. I'm not saying that the E12 is by any means a clear and detailed sounding amp compared to more expensive, higher tier amps.. but it is a good value and IMO a best bang for buck product.


----------



## KamijoIsMyHero

Just got word back, headphonebar will carry it on march for us Canadians


----------



## Typhoon859

Quote: 





sko0bydoo said:


> e18 or e19 would be like what you wanted...the only problem, e18 in summer, e19 winter.


 
  Are you saying that the E18 may possibly be released by summer time and the next version by winter time?  Is that a random guess?  Where did you get that information from?  I think at best the E18 would be released by the end of this year and the notional "E19" wouldn't make sense at this point at all.  The only thing that could possibly be improved on at that point is sound quality, as I'm sure there'd be room to grow.  
   
  Quote: 





greed said:


> Just going on what I remember about the E17, the sound quality wasn't much better than the E11. In fact, I preferred the E11 to the E17, and others here do as well. The E12 is a much more refined and neutral sounding amp compared to both the E11 and E17. After hearing the E12, the E11 and E17 both sound too dark and muddy. It is a clear step up sonically. I'm not saying that the E12 is by any means a clear and detailed sounding amp compared to more expensive, higher tier amps.. but it is a good value and IMO a best bang for buck product.


 
  The E17 has the most amount of presence in treble compared to any other amp and/or DAC I've ever plugged any of my headphones into.  It's pushing the point of being overly "bright" but it just has some pleasant qualities to it that forego that.  And plus, more prominently and in direct relation to that accentuation of treble is the overall harmonic balance, noticeably shifted due to odd-harmonic distortion.  The effect essentially colors the sound but in the opposite direction.  It makes it sound less lively due to the facts that the mids/fundamental frequencies lose their presence.
   
  Saying comparatively that the E17 & E11 sound dark I think would be too drastic of a comparison between any two solid state amps.  The E12 may in fact be more "neutral" somehow, as people say; I don't know; I haven't actually heard the thing.  But so far, every impression somebody gives of it seems to reaffirm the idea that I have that it actually has more distortion than the other two amps (which wouldn't make sense but it's possible).  
   
  The "darker" a solid state amp sounds relative to another the better it usually sounds (for related reasons to the above stated) and the more accurate/neutral it means it is, that is, unless something was intentionally done to it to make it sound that way,


----------



## Greed

Quote: 





typhoon859 said:


> Are you saying that the E18 may possibly be released by summer time and the next version by winter time?  Is that a random guess?  Where did you get that information from?  I think at best the E18 would be released by the end of this year and the notional "E19" wouldn't make sense at this point at all.  The only thing that could possibly be improved on at that point is sound quality, as I'm sure there'd be room to grow.
> 
> The E17 has the most amount of presence in treble compared to any other amp and/or DAC I've ever plugged any of my headphones into.  It's pushing the point of being overly "bright" but it just has some pleasant qualities to it that forego that.  And plus, more prominently and in direct relation to that accentuation of treble is the overall harmonic balance, noticeably shifted due to odd-harmonic distortion.  The effect essentially colors the sound but in the opposite direction.  It makes it sound less lively due to the facts that the mids/fundamental frequencies lose their presence.
> 
> ...


 

 First of all, good DAC's won't color your music at all. If you've heard a "bright" DAC chances are is isn't highly regarded. As for your other points, I agree with some.. but I don't agree with your assumption that the "darker" a solid state amp is the better it usually sounds? How does that make any sense, when typically the ultimate goal of all audio companies is to design products that are balanced, and/or as close to flat as possible. With your logic products like the Matrix M-Stage etc would be the end for most people if "darker" sounding amps are somehow better. I understand that branding some "dark" is over dramatic, but if you go back and read what I wrote I said in comparison to the E12. That doesn't mean the E11 and E17 are dark, it means they sound dark when compared to the E12. Not the same thing. Your theory on distortion is unique to say the least.


----------



## TooPoor

Such a newb question, I'm embarrassed to ask: Whats the best way to hook up this Digizoid2 to my E12? Right now I have it going laptop->E12->digizoid->headphones. I'm so exhausted from work I can't think.


----------



## TooPoor

Nevermind, switched it to use the digizoid as a preamp. I think it works better. This little thing has some punch to it definitely. Not as overwhelming as I thought it'd be on my Sig Pros though. Definitely a nice addition to the E12 for certain genres.


----------



## bowei006

Basically its trial and error, whatever works the best and sounds right is what I usually do.
   
   
  Typically the more powerful amp goes last so that you don't get a clipped signal in case you have a much more powerful amp before a less powerful one. An amp has a certain amount of voltage it can take in before it will start to distort heavily and clip.


----------



## Oregonian

Quote: 





toopoor said:


> Such a newb question, I'm embarrassed to ask: Whats the best way to hook up this Digizoid2 to my E12? Right now I have it going laptop->E12->digizoid->headphones. I'm so exhausted from work I can't think.


 
   
  Out from your source via LOD (critical you don't use headphone out) into your E-12, then into ZO and then into phones.  Gotta keep ZO on high gain and I leave it on RED bass contour and use the E-12 for volume control.
   
  try his and when you are done smiling, report back.


----------



## TooPoor

It's hard to have fun with this portable rig at the moment with my LCD2's and Lyr w/ orange globe tubes from '74 coming in tomorrow. Also, I'm so tempted to pony up for the Apex Glacier in place if the E12...


----------



## Sko0byDoo

Quote: 





typhoon859 said:


> Are you saying that the E18 may possibly be released by summer time and the next version by winter time?  Is that a random guess?  Where did you get that information from?  I think at best the E18 would be released by the end of this year and the notional "E19" wouldn't make sense at this point at all.  The only thing that could possibly be improved on at that point is sound quality, as I'm sure there'd be room to grow.


 
   
  I asked JamesFiio/Feiao and these were what I got as a reply.  I'm hoping for a release of e18 in late summer.  I'm holding-off the e17 purchase and wait for the e18 due to Android compatibility.  e19 supposes to be Fiio top dog, e12+a kickass DAC?
   
Current e18 threads: http://www.head-fi.org/t/628254/fiio-e18


----------



## Typhoon859

Quote: 





greed said:


> First of all, good DAC's won't color your music at all. If you've heard a "bright" DAC chances are is isn't highly regarded. As for your other points, I agree with some.. but I don't agree with your assumption that the "darker" a solid state amp is the better it usually sounds? How does that make any sense, when typically the ultimate goal of all audio companies is to design products that are balanced, and/or as close to flat as possible. With your logic products like the Matrix M-Stage etc would be the end for most people if "darker" sounding amps are somehow better. I understand that branding some "dark" is over dramatic, but if you go back and read what I wrote I said in comparison to the E12. That doesn't mean the E11 and E17 are dark, it means they sound dark when compared to the E12. Not the same thing. Your theory on distortion is unique to say the least.


 
  When I said DAC, I meant in combination.  Either way I'm not sure what you further assumed, but there are obviously things that the DAC effects, all of which wouldn't be very similarly described as the effects of an amp would.  I wasn't really implying anything by it.  And just for the record, I have sitting next to me a very highly regarded AD/DA converter here next to me by SSL, for professional use (or at least that's the reason I bought it; I'm not crazy to otherwise spend that much money, lol).  
   
  As far as the other stuff I said, it's not a matter of agreeing or disagreeing.  I'm not making any assumptions.  Let me try to elaborate on some points if they didn't come across.  So for instance, when I said the darker it sounds the better, I meant it relative to each other and as far as most cases go.  Why?  I've never seen a solid state amp unintentionally due to poor design or bad components have a measurement (or a perceived sound) where the treble (mostly harmonic content) actually dips.  It's too much to get into the details of it, but basically, the type of distortion present in these amps ends up emphasizing the upper-mids, all through the treble range, that actually being the lesser of the important perceivable effects.  As I mentioned, more importantly is the emphasized odd harmonics over the even but I guess that's not what we're discussing.  ..I used "dark" in the sense that you may not have realized you also used (but have now indicated that it is how you meant it).  Neither the E17 or the E11 are dark sounding amps, to the slightest stretch of the imagination, as you've agreed (you really gave an impression otherwise).  However, it is possible that relative to another amp (like the E12), they may appear to be so, but that would only be saying something bad at this point about the amp being compared to them.  It can be more of an indication that your headphones have a slightly veiled sound to them and the E12 works better to get THEM to sound more neutral (or it could possibly be a number of other things also to be quite honest).  They could also just be better impedance matched.  
   
  Yes, of course the goal (especially with these amps) would be to get as flat a response as possible, especially in the highs as that's where most of the distortion actually has the most effect (also for several although related reasons).  I was talking about it just like you meant it, relatively.  IN THAT CONTEXT, I mention that relatively "the darker it is the better" because the further you go from the ideal design with these kind of amps, the more the higher frequencies are effected (by adding onto themselves through a sort-of overlap or just becoming disproportionately louder to the human ear).  I'm trying to simplify..  Basically what I mean by the latter point is that odd-harmonics are perceived as a harsher kind of sound to us and they're also what we mainly use as our sense of loudness, so with them being distorted, the effect is I think therefore more or less obvious.  It's why a trumpet sounds so piercingly loud and unbearable close up (due to its large amount of odd-harmonic content) despite being significantly quieter than fully cranked electric guitars (with EVEN-harmonic distortion) going through the amp and cabinets.  As you likely know, it's often PREFERRED for the guitars/music to be cranked up that high since ultimately, if not going past the human hearing threshold for pain (like 120 dB SPL), it actually sounds pleasant to us!  
   
  I can't tell you the exact reason for what you're hearing and I'm not saying you're wrong in what you hear either.  I'm just saying that you're very likely attributing what you're hearing to the wrong things in this case.  
   
  Quote: 





sko0bydoo said:


> I asked JamesFiio/Feiao and these were what I got as a reply.  I'm hoping for a release of e18 in late summer.  I'm holding-off the e17 purchase and wait for the e18 due to Android compatibility.  e19 supposes to be Fiio top dog, e12+a kickass DAC?
> 
> Current e18 threads: http://www.head-fi.org/t/628254/fiio-e18


 
  Aww!...  I thought the E18 was supposed to be all of the above!  It's not worth it just for that if it costs more than the E17 or if you already have the E17 and it doesn't even have a better amp.  If we get something like the E17 with a mute button, potentially a talk button, Android support, and a better amp?!  ..I'll cradle it in my arms until I die!  (A digital optical or coaxial-out wouldn't hurt either, lol) As long as it's portable and doesn't surpass the size of current Android phones, I'm happy trading off size for these features.  I don't find myself pairing an amp directly connected to my phone as I travel anyway.  I currently just pack the E17 with me and use it at my destinations, whether it's for "professional" use or for casual listening.  I use IEMs on the go and there's no point in pairing them with an amp.  Not only because of comfort reasons, but even without that as a factor, I'm not sure I'd want the same experience on the go as I get at home or at whatever other locations.  I quite like the sound of my IEMs and after all this time, I haven't gotten tired of them (of course with the EQ I have for them).  They're very forward, warm, and engaging, which for on-the-go casual listening is great!  Of course, that's without much trade-off for other qualities (as they would pertain to this situation anyway).  But of course, that's just my opinion and my experience.  I'd bet though that if I got a true chance to share the experience, many would agree (of the people who don't dislike IEMs for comfort reasons).


----------



## Dyaems

i might be getting one few weeks from now, and it comes from the first batch! yay!


----------



## kskwerl

How does this amp fair with sensitive IEMs?


----------



## bowei006

kskwerl said:


> How does this amp fair with sensitive IEMs?


Decently. Didnt get any noise and you need light turns of the knob. But i had no problems


----------



## kskwerl

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> Decently. Didnt get any noise and you need light turns of the knob. But i had no problems


 
  Beautiful!


----------



## Bill-P

Sorry for advertising, but... I updated my thread with comparison to JDS Labs C421 in case anyone is interested.
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/649174/review-fiio-e12-comparison-to-c-c-bh-jds-labs-o2-jds-labs-c421
   
  On that note, I don't like the +8dB @ 80Hz on the C421. It bleeds into the midrange and causes the amp to lose its transparency. Plus it sounds very muddy and congested.
   
  So I hope Fiio doesn't push E12's bass boost to a similar level. I think it's perfect the way it is.


----------



## Evshrug

Yeah, around +9 dB is like a perceived doubling in sound pressure/volume, right? And the E12's boost is about half that? Sounds good to me


----------



## audionewbi

anyone tried pairing this with EX1000?


----------



## pngwn

I'm having problems with my input jack. The left channel seems to be the dominant one and right one works depending on the cable positioning :/ I checked to see if my LOD (L10) was the problem, but it works fine with my BH.

EDIT:

It seems the problem does indeed lie with my L10 LOD. The majority of the problem, anyway. I listened just now with both my BH and E12 using the L10 out of my iPhone and only the left channel worked. Using the included E12 interconnector worked as normal, though the E12 sometimes cuts out the right channel, but very slight re-adjustment of the cable is all that has been needed to get everything back to 100%.


----------



## gavinfabl

I was at the Bristol Sound & Vision show yesterday. I had with me my E12 and iPod Classic. I was able to use it to listen to a number of different headphones including the top of the range Sennheiser HD700 and HD800, audio Technica ATH AD900 and AD1000 and some $700 Perfect Sound cans. 

It wasn't the perfect listening conditions due to the noise of people and other gear but I was amazed at how well the E12 performed with every single headphone. The HD800 needed the gain adjusted. That can needs power. 

And for those that have forgotten my review is on page 38 from memory on this thread.


----------



## Evshrug

Yeah it's on page 38, and also on the E12's product profile here on Head-Fi, I believe. I forget, did you read my review too? High-five for being some of the first!
I'm impressed with the difference in soundstage amped vs "unamped," even the HE-400 that is supposed to be easy to drive was improved. How did you like the Mont Blanc + HD700 and HD800 combo? I haven't heard of the Perfect Sound products, but I'm interested in the new Audio Technica AD700x and AD1000x headphones.


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

Quote: 





typhoon859 said:


> The bass heads are of the lesser majority and shouldn't even be an influence on something.  Pandering towards the uninformed/inexperienced can't possibly ever be the right approach.  Almost everyone starts out a bass head but it's typically grown out of for many proper reasons.


 
   
  Right, like all bassheads are uninformed/unexperienced? Get of your high horse now. /end of rant


----------



## gavinfabl

evshrug said:


> Yeah it's on page 38, and also on the E12's product profile here on Head-Fi, I believe. I forget, did you read my review too? High-five for being some of the first!
> I'm impressed with the difference in soundstage amped vs "unamped," even the HE-400 that is supposed to be easy to drive was improved. How did you like the Mont Blanc + HD700 and HD800 combo? I haven't heard of the Perfect Sound products, but I'm interested in the new Audio Technica AD700x and AD1000x headphones.




High Five back  Yes I read your excellent review 

The Mont Blanc is great with the Sennheisers. Best suited to the HD700 mainly because the HD800 need more power. Therefore the HD700 just rock better. It's a close call. The Audio Technica were driven very effectively. It was too noisy to hear them properly but I'm tempted to buy a pair as a permanent addition. The E12 was better than the full size amp with the Audio Technica.


----------



## KT66

Quote: 





gavinfabl said:


> Ok. I'm listening to the mp3 version of Dreams of New Orleans by Wycliffe Gordon. This album is notoriously quiet in volume so anything I've used without an amp sounds missing power and oomph.
> 
> With the E12 all the different instruments and nuances of the music can be heard at whatever volume you need to go deaf
> 
> ...


 

 Would love to hear more about the comparison to the Graham Slee Voyager, that I love and rate quite highly


----------



## gavinfabl

kt66 said:


> Would love to hear more about the comparison to the Graham Slee Voyager, that I love and rate quite highly




The GSV is good but the E12 gave me more drama, excitement , wow moments, and more.


----------



## putente

The E12 is indeed a "fun" amp to listen to. Sure it's not the best sound quality amp around, but considering the price, it's still very good. Comparing it to the closest amp I have in price (although more expensive), the JDS Labs c421 (OPA2227) has better mids and smoother highs, with better soundstage performance. The E12 is more of a "in your face" emotional experience, while the c421 is more relaxed and laid back, where everything in the mids and higs sounds smoother and more detailed. Where the E12 wins hands down is the in bass department, especially with it's unique and awesome Bass Boost. Actually, I think FiiO mislabeled it, as it should be labeled as "Sub-bass boost"! I'm keeping my E12 mainly because of this feature, as the only other amp I've heard that can do similar sub-bass boost is the ZO2 (in the first steps of it's bass boost). All in all, the E12 is a great amp, with a very unique and different sound "flavour" compared to other amps I own or tried...


----------



## kskwerl

I just got mine and I was hoping it would be more neutral like the O2 I just sold. Sigh, I may keep this as a portable.


----------



## audionewbi

Quote: 





kskwerl said:


> I just got mine and I was hoping it would be more neutral like the O2 I just sold. Sigh, I may keep this as a portable.


 
  Can you go more in depth on how it compares with O2. I love how fiio E12 looks, it will be a prefect with ipod touch 5G and DD socket 1 however what is worrying me is the sound. 
   
  How neutral is it? Or how far away it is from neutrality. 

 Cheers


----------



## kskwerl

Quote: 





audionewbi said:


> Can you go more in depth on how it compares with O2. I love how fiio E12 looks, it will be a prefect with ipod touch 5G and DD socket 1 however what is worrying me is the sound.
> 
> How neutral is it? Or how far away it is from neutrality.
> 
> Cheers


 
  Compared to the O2? it's warm like jock strap on a hot summer day in Alabama. I mean there's no sense in even trying to compare it to the O2. Warm, colored, congested in terms of comparing it to the O2. IMO, this may be bias coming from the O2 but it's just too far from neutral for me. I just got it and I'll do some more testing but I think I'm going to go back to the O2/ODAC combo


----------



## kskwerl

It's a good amp for sure but just not for my taste, I like very neutral sound.


----------



## audionewbi

Thanks, I think that might be a deal breaker for me.


----------



## Greed

Quote: 





kskwerl said:


> It's a good amp for sure but just not for my taste, I like very neutral sound.


 
  Sounds like the new C5 is calling your name. Suppposly very similar in sound to its big brother, the O2. If you are looking for a portable solution this should be top on your list.


----------



## bowei006

Everyone's need of how 'neutral' something is is very different. Some won't mind as long as it doesn't become a bass cannon. Others want a fully portable O2. As for me, while on the go with my equipment, I am fine with the FiiO Andes and Mont Blanc. It's actually beneficial.


----------



## kskwerl

Quote: 





greed said:


> Sounds like the new C5 is calling your name. Suppposly very similar in sound to its big brother, the O2. If you are looking for a portable solution this should be top on your list.


 
  Thank you very much that's what I'm looking for, a more portable O2
  Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> Everyone's need of how 'neutral' something is is very different. Some won't mind as long as it doesn't become a bass cannon. Others want a fully portable O2. As for me, while on the go with my equipment, I am fine with the FiiO Andes and Mont Blanc. It's actually beneficial.


 
  Panda its really weird because I love the Andes, I'm going to give it some more time and do some more testing.


----------



## kskwerl

Quote: 





greed said:


> Sounds like the new C5 is calling your name. Suppposly very similar in sound to its big brother, the O2. If you are looking for a portable solution this should be top on your list.


 
  How's the drive on the C5? I need something powerful


----------



## audionewbi

I just want to say that O2 is not C5 bigger brother. O2 is developed by someone else, it is made and sold bu JDS lab. Their design philosophy might be different. 
  C5 is developed by JDS labs lone. So strictly speaking C5 is on its own and therefore might sound quiet different than O2.


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





kskwerl said:


> Thank you very much that's what I'm looking for, a more portable O2
> Panda its really weird because I love the Andes, I'm going to give it some more time and do some more testing.


 
  With my portable equipment, its 'sweeter, bassier, and warmer' sound is more beneficial to me as I jam out while on the go. At home, I want excellence with good tracks. On the go, I want to jam.
   
  My ANDES is out on temporary borrow to a friend(he let me borrow E11, GR07, and L11 in return for review of E12) but I will get it back soon.
   
   

   
  FiiO E12 with my new Custom unit. Inside is a Custom Microprocessor and volatile memory controlled custom Objective 2 amplifier and the flagship Cirrus Logic the CS4398. 
   
  I'll add comparison soon of E12 and O2.
   
  I'll use either the Heir Audio as the headphone control and the CS4398 will be the DAC control.
   
  CS4398-->E12-->Heir Audio
  CS4398-->O2-->Heir Audio
   
  Is how I'll do it.


----------



## kskwerl

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> With my portable equipment, its 'sweeter, bassier, and warmer' sound is more beneficial to me as I jam out while on the go. At home, I want excellence with good tracks. On the go, I want to jam.
> 
> My ANDES is out on temporary borrow to a friend(he let me borrow E11, GR07, and L11 in return for review of E12) but I will get it back soon.
> 
> ...


 
  Panda how do you like that Project H, would you recommend it for someone looking for something neutral as the O2?


----------



## audionewbi

Project-H looks really neat, looks amazing, well done.


----------



## kskwerl

Nevermind I just read the thread on it :*( lol


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





kskwerl said:


> Panda how do you like that Project H, would you recommend it for someone looking for something neutral as the O2?


 
  Quote: 





audionewbi said:


> Project-H looks really neat, looks amazing, well done.


 
  Quote: 





kskwerl said:


> Nevermind I just read the thread on it :*( lol


 
   
  Thank you all.
   
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/652306/diy-custom-amplifier-and-dac-project-h
   
  This is the thread on it.
   
  No it is not for sale, it is custom and limited edition for only 10 people in the entire world.* If it was for sale, I wouldn't post it in this thread, as it would be bias and bad. I was involved in project. But it is not for sale, and there is interest so I personally chose to post the link. As it is not for sale. Just to put that out there. *
   
  It will be my main reference unit. I don't review things that are very expensive. Thus the O2 serves as a good reference amp for my reviewing. Many have it and it is reverred so its not a problem.
   
  So yes, I would recommend it as the unit was very cheap but you can never buy it. Ours is also very modified in how the O2 works and parts that are on it or what aren't.
   
  I am updating review info on other reviews, but I should be able to do some magic tonight with it.


----------



## kskwerl

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> Thank you all.
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/652306/diy-custom-amplifier-and-dac-project-h
> 
> ...


 
  so jealous 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 that's one nice amp


----------



## kskwerl

does JDS labs have a return policy?


----------



## Greed

Quote: 





audionewbi said:


> I just want to say that O2 is not C5 bigger brother. O2 is developed by someone else, it is made and sold bu JDS lab. Their design philosophy might be different.
> C5 is developed by JDS labs lone. So strictly speaking C5 is on its own and therefore might sound quiet different than O2.


 
  Check your facts, and don't assume things without evidence and research. Here is some direct quotes from John, on the JDS Labs C5 blog:
    


> _Yes, C5 should be audibly indistinguishable from other neutral amplifiers such as O2._


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





greed said:


> Check your facts, and don't assume things without eveidence and research. Here is some direct quotes from John, on the JDS Labs C5 blog:


 
   
  audionewbie I believe was saying that they are different amps and thus it will require more info, and actual listening to get down to who is the big brother of who.
   
  His opinion was that it should sound different.
   
  A manufactuerer's thoughts do hold weight but it should not be used as actual evidence for the performance of an amp. If we were to all do that, then Beats and Monster's new lines are thus the best headphones on the market and is in no way matchable by any others. 
   
  And then that's where reviews come in.


----------



## audionewbi

Quote: 





greed said:


> Check your facts, and don't assume things without eveidence and research. Here is some direct quotes from John, on the JDS Labs C5 blog:


 
  Not to derail the Fiio thread anymore and I do apologies but I did not assume anything, O2 is design by Nwavguy, C5 by JDS lab. Two indepedant product with complete different design. If it was design by the same designer we only than call it its little brother, for all I know the O2 designer might hate the C5 let alone consider it its little brother.
   
  Only when a company decides to revise their unit or make a new amp based on some of their older product we can call it its brother, as it stands the two products are based on different designers and very independent.


----------



## Greed

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> audionewbie I believe was saying that they are different amps and thus it will require more info, and actual listening to get down to who is the big brother of who.
> 
> His opinion was that it should sound different.
> 
> ...


 
  A review is no more creditable than a designers words.  As we all know sound is subjective, and heard different to the individual. Not everyone will think it is neutral, sure. But right now, when the C5 hasn't been heard by anyone, going by what information we have is all we can speculate upon.


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





greed said:


> A review is no more creditable than a designers words.  As we all know sound is subjective, and heard different to the individual. Not everyone will think it is neutral, sure. But right now, when the C5 hasn't been heard by anyone, going by what information we have is all we can speculate upon.


 
  True true. What one reviewer thinks will be different than the others in some regards. But one must be more wary of a manufactuerer or involved person. That is just how it works.


----------



## Greed

Quote: 





audionewbi said:


> Not to derail the Fiip thread anymore and I do apologies I did not assume anything, O2 is design by Nwavguy, C5 by JDS lab. Two indepedant product with complete different design. If it was design by the same designer we only than call it its little brother, for all I know the O2 designer might hate the C5 let alone consider it its little brother.
> 
> Only when a company decides to revise their unit or made a new amp based on some of their older product we can call it its brother, as it stands the two products are based on different designers.


 
  I think you are misunderstanding what exactly I was trying to recommend. Both are made by JDS Labs, even though the technology might be different and the designers are not the same doesn't mean the amp won't sound similar, in fact the another quote from the C5 blog:
   


> C5 began as an experiment, and even I was skeptical that we could outmatch c421′s THD+N with a digital potentiometer. Thus, we bought a dScope III and set no project deadline and no budget. We’d either continue shipping c421′s, or continue experimenting.
> By January 2013, it was clear that C5 was electrically complete. We quietly put C5 PCB’s into production instead of another batch of c421′s. C5 had not only hit our THD+N goal, it had matched the O2!
> ...
> The C5 proof of concept began as an Arduino Pro with messy wires coupled to a c421: DIY style.


 
  Even though the project isn't in direct comparisson to the O2, the neutrality of the amp was definitely the reference when they were designing the C5.


----------



## miceblue

Quote: 





kskwerl said:


> I just got mine and I was hoping it would be more neutral like the O2 I just sold. Sigh, I may keep this as a portable.


 
  I know this is off-topic, but as was previously discussed, the C5 might be an option worth looking into if you're interested in fairly transparent amp [I'm not saying it is, but it is an improvement over their now replaced C421 amplifier, which compared favourably next to an O2].
   
  From JDS Lab's website:
  Quote: 





> Return Policy
> Pre-assembled amplifiers, DACs, and unused standalone parts may be returned for refund or exchange within 14 days of shipment delivery. All returns are subject to a 15% restocking fee. Custom cases are non-refundable.


 
  From extrapolated values, the C5 is around:
  ~86 mW @ 32 Ω
   
  From manufacture measured values:
  28.65 mW @ 600 Ω
  74.24 mW @ 150 Ω
   
  It doesn't supply nearly as much power as the E12, but it should more than enough to drive most headphones to a reasonable volume level.
   
  The C5's started shipping on Friday, so stay tuned for impressions next week.


----------



## kskwerl

So what your trying to say is that the C5 should sound pretty neutral?


----------



## kskwerl

Quote: 





miceblue said:


> I know this is off-topic, but as was previously discussed, the C5 might be an option worth looking into if you're interested in fairly transparent amp [I'm not saying it is, but it is an improvement over their now replaced C421 amplifier, which compared favourably next to an O2].
> 
> From JDS Lab's website:
> From extrapolated values, the C5 is around:
> ...


 
  Thanks for that! I wish I knew how to read those power requirements and how to figure out if the headphones I have will be driven by an amp I'm looking at. 1000+ posts and I still don't know stuff like this geez


----------



## miceblue

Quote: 





kskwerl said:


> So what your trying to say is that the C5 should sound pretty neutral?


 
  Indirectly, it's possible, but I can't make any claims until I have personally heard it next to the O2. The measurements done by the manufacturer look good though.


----------



## Bill-P

If C5 improves upon C421, then I suspect it'll actually sound very different from O2, because C421 is smoother and more spacious than O2 to me.


----------



## kskwerl

Well this is all speculation so lets just wait til we start hearing some actual reviews here


----------



## miceblue

Quote: 





bill-p said:


> If C5 improves upon C421, then I suspect it'll actually sound very different from O2, because C421 is smoother and more spacious than O2 to me.


 
  The C5 uses the same standard op-amp as the C421 (OPA2227), but that's all I'm saying about the C5 for now.
  If you're looking for C5 information, your best bet would be in the appropriate C5 thread: http://www.head-fi.org/t/647838/new-jds-labs-c5-portable-amplifier-pre-order-now-open-pg10-for-details


----------



## beedee

Quote: 





miceblue said:


> The C5 uses the same standard op-amp as the C421 (AD2227), but that's all I'm saying about the C5 for now.
> If you're looking for C5 information, your best bet would be in the appropriate C5 thread: http://www.head-fi.org/t/647838/new-jds-labs-c5-portable-amplifier-pre-order-now-open-pg10-for-details


 
  thanks


----------



## Evshrug

*facepalm*
What is the title/topic of this thread again?

Ps listening with the E12 and HE-400 headphones over the past 2 days, seems like an adequate combo and works great for Massive Attack, but on all my amps I feel like the headphone is a bit less comfortable on long listening sessions. I consider the HE-400 a "forward" headphone (reminds me of a Super Grado SR60) with heavier bass pressure especially (kind of a V-shaped freq response), so the E12 is suitable in my experience across the "forward & fun" HE-400, the neutral (ish) balance of the Q701 and Etymotic ER•6i, and the cold, analytical sound of the Audio Technica AD700. The difference between headphones is much greater than I'm hearing between quite different amp designs.

The Q's are still my favorite headphone, but I'm going to give the HE-400+E12 combo another listen now while I make some breakfast.


----------



## gerald410

1st post, I have tracking info for the E12. I should have it by the end of week can't wait. I'm currently using an E17 with the DT-990 Pro 250 Ohms. I hope that it makes a good pairing fingers crossed.


----------



## Evshrug

Welcome to head-Fi, sorry about your wallet!

Should be quite good. If you use your E17 as a DAC, you can still pair it with the E12 using a line-out adapter made for the E17 (sold separately). Having just listened to the HE-400 till what was left of my E12's battery (last charged a week ago or something), the sound (with bass boost on) is noticeably fuller, thicker, and articulate than the much thinner-by-comparison sound of my iPod's headphone jack. The HE-400 is pretty similar to the DT990 as far as freq graphs are shaped. I think the HE-400's are too much for me though, heh heh...


----------



## Chris J

kskwerl said:


> Compared to the O2? it's warm like jock strap on a hot summer day in Alabama. I mean there's no sense in even trying to compare it to the O2. Warm, colored, congested in terms of comparing it to the O2. IMO, this may be bias coming from the O2 but it's just too far from neutral for me. I just got it and I'll do some more testing but I think I'm going to go back to the O2/ODAC combo




LOL!
Thank you very much for the mental image!


----------



## gerald410

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Welcome to head-Fi, sorry about your wallet!
> 
> Should be quite good. If you use your E17 as a DAC, you can still pair it with the E12 using a line-out adapter made for the E17 (sold separately). Having just listened to the HE-400 till what was left of my E12's battery (last charged a week ago or something), the sound (with bass boost on) is noticeably fuller, thicker, and articulate than the much thinner-by-comparison sound of my iPod's headphone jack. The HE-400 is pretty similar to the DT990 as far as freq graphs are shaped. I think the HE-400's are too much for me though, heh heh...


 
  Thx for the welcome, tell me about it! Getting ready to spring for the Trinton Three's yikes lol. Was going to sell the E17 may keep it now thanks to your suggestion.


----------



## miceblue

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> *facepalm*
> What is the title/topic of this thread again?
> 
> Ps listening with the E12 and HE-400 headphones over the past 2 days, seems like an adequate combo and works great for Massive Attack, but on all my amps I feel like the headphone is a bit less comfortable on long listening sessions. I consider the HE-400 a "forward" headphone (reminds me of a Super Grado SR60) with heavier bass pressure especially (kind of a V-shaped freq response), so the E12 is suitable in my experience across the "forward & fun" HE-400, the neutral (ish) balance of the Q701 and Etymotic ER•6i, and the cold, analytical sound of the Audio Technica AD700. The difference between headphones is much greater than I'm hearing between quite different amp designs.
> ...


 
  So in other words, the E12 sounds good with any headphone then? XD
  The E12 should provide more than enough power for the HE-400's with 850 mW at 25 Ω. It takes 337.92 mW of power to get the HE-400's to 120 dB SPL, which should be plenty loud even for the most dynamic music genres.


----------



## Evshrug

miceblue said:


> So in other words, the E12 sounds good with any headphone then? XD
> The E12 should provide more than enough power for the HE-400's with 850 mW at 25 Ω. It takes 337.92 mW of power to get the HE-400's to 120 dB SPL, which should be plenty loud even for the most dynamic music genres.



Yeah, that's pretty much what I've been saying all along. And true, the HE-400's don't require much power to reach a quite loud SPL, but as I'm sure Chris J could elaborate loudness isn't everything. He provided me with this very insightful link: http://www.head-fi.org/a/headphone-impedance

The HE-400's definitely sound much fuller with E12+L11 LOD than straight from my iPod's headphone jack, even though the iPod only needed about 50% volume setting to drive the HE-400's loud enough. If I hadn't heard the E12 with other headphones (and hadn't noticed I had left the bass boost on) I would think the E12 was very warm, but instead I use the word "full" because it really... well, I don't want to get into subjective platitudes, but vs a weaker, cheaper amp, the E12 brings out the character of a headphone more.


----------



## miceblue

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Heeeey I remember reading this wiki some time ago, it's a very useful wiki indeed (I actually made a comment about it in the comments section). 
   
  iPod vs LOD+E12 probably sounds different because the iPod simply cannot output as much power as the E12 at a given volume level to keep a clean waveform. Sure it can get loud, but you'll probably start getting a clipped waveform with the iPod before the the E12; "fuller" might describe this (clipping as in, even if the RMS/average volume level is fairly low, the amp might not supply enough voltage to reach the music's dynamic peak-to-peak voltage and instead clips the waveform). That plus the specs of the iPod's amp are unknown, that I know of, so for all I know, the iPod could have a ton of THD whereas the E12 has very little [I'm not making any claims, just an example of something that can affect the sound].


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





miceblue said:


> Heeeey I remember reading this wiki some time ago, it's a very useful wiki indeed (I actually made a comment about it in the comments section).
> 
> iPod vs LOD+E12 probably sounds different because the iPod simply cannot output as much power as the E12 at a given volume level to keep a clean waveform. Sure it can get loud, but you'll probably start getting a clipped waveform with the iPod before the the E12; "fuller" might describe this (clipping as in, even if the RMS/average volume level is fairly low, the amp might not supply enough voltage to reach the music's dynamic peak-to-peak voltage and instead clips the waveform). That plus the specs of the iPod's amp are unknown, that I know of, so for all I know, the iPod could have a ton of THD whereas the E12 has very little [I'm not making any claims, just an example of something that can affect the sound].


 
   
  Hey, thanks for the comments guys!
   
  Yep, hard to believe a wee little iPod has enough output voltage and current to drive a lot of these fairly inefficient headphones that we like so much.
   
  But then who buys HE-400s or HD650s or DT880/600 Ohms just to use it with an iPod? That's just my opinion, but I would assume that average $300 and up headphone owner agrees.
   
  There was a post I read somewhere (can't remember where, not sure how true it is) where someone said that he thinks most people don't listen any louder than 90-95 dB average level. Not sure how true this is, but if it is true then enough power to reach 110 dB SPL should be enough


----------



## miceblue

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Yup, and that's probably why Tyll has the "Power Needed for 90 dB SPL" measurement in his headphone measurement charts. Most headphones don't require gobs of power to power, but it's useful for those loud listeners out there and for very dynamic music.


----------



## bowei006

Yep, some things are indeed a bit over rated.
   
  For example if a headphone states:
   
  95dB SP/mW and the headphone is 65 ohms
   
  Then all it is saying is that you need 1mW @ 65 ohms to produce 95dB of Sound pressure.
   
   
  ---Ignore--
   
  Panda mess up


----------



## miceblue

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> Yep, some things are indeed a bit over rated.
> 
> For example if a headphone states:
> 
> ...


 
  Er...ampere is the unit of measure for current. I think you meant voltage instead of amperage; and lower impedance headphones typically require more current, less voltage.


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





miceblue said:


> Er...ampere is the unit of measure for current. I think you meant voltage instead of amperage; and lower impedance headphones typically require more current, less voltage.


 
  Sorry. Yeah that's what I meant.
   
  I re read my post twice. I KNEW something was wrong.
   
  Yep, messed that part up too. 
   
  Multi tasking. I'll go finish my research paper thesis. 
   
  W=Voltage X Amperage(current) 
   
  General quality:
  Low impedance equals more current , less volts
  High impedance equals less current, more volts.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> I re read my post twice. I KNEW something was wrong.


 
   
  I've re-read ALL my posts many, many times. I still don't know what's wrong with me or if it can be cured.
   
  Thots?


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





chris j said:


> I've re-read ALL my posts many, many times. I still don't know what's wrong with me or if it can be cured.
> 
> Thots?


 
  That is a common occurrence with some types of thought patterns like yours and mine.
   
  I believe it has its origins in the creation and holding of thought and information hosted in the cerebellum of the cranial cavity.
   
  Anyway, I found a good site that can help you with why this happens. It is really good at explaining very concisely why this happens to the memory.
   
http://www.helpguide.org/life/improving_memory.htm


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> That is a common occurrence with some types of thought patterns like yours and mine.
> 
> I believe it has its origins in the creation and holding of thought and information hosted in the cerebellum of the cranial cavity.
> 
> ...


 
   
  I never should have stopped wearing my tin foil hat.
  As you know, it blocks the aliens from reading my mind and controlling my mind.
  Sometimes they control my brain too.
  Thanks for the info.


----------



## Evshrug

It also makes for a great baked potato.

The IPod undoubtably has enough voltage for the HE-400, probably enough current too, but still... sounds substantially different amped through the E12.


----------



## jiggahwhat

I have a couple of questions.
   
  1) Is there some sort of decent budget DAC I can use to connect the E12 to a laptop?
   
  2) How would the interconnects work in this configuration? Will I lose any quality using the 3.5 to 3.5 instead of the traditional DAC-->AMP interconnect? 
   
  3) How would this approach compare to using the Fiio E17? The E12 appears to be far more powerful in terms of output.


----------



## audionewbi

Quote: 





jiggahwhat said:


> I have a couple of questions.
> 
> 1) Is there some sort of decent budget DAC I can use to connect the E12 to a laptop?
> 
> ...


 
  ODAC?


----------



## waynes world

Quote: 





jiggahwhat said:


> I have a couple of questions.
> 
> 1) Is there some sort of decent budget DAC I can use to connect the E12 to a laptop?


 
   
  I have an ELE DAC and like it quite a bit. And it was only $20 
  http://www.ebay.ca/itm/ELE-EL-D01-MINI-HIFI-USB-DAC-PCM2704-DAC-BOARD-ELNA-Capacitor-Black-/251075511946
   
  I don't quite have my E12 yet (should get it this week), but I'll post my impressions when I can. But I suspect that they will work very well together.
   
  You can search this thread for "ELE DAC" to get more info about it:
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/586909/the-discovery-thread-ghosts-first-take-ath-ckn70-pg487-dannybs-first-take-ath-ckn50-pg383


----------



## jiggahwhat

I suppose that could work sufficiently. 
   
  But does 3.5-->3.5 degrade quality substantially versus those RCA audio cables (R/L red white)?


----------



## miceblue

Quote: 





jiggahwhat said:


> I suppose that could work sufficiently.
> 
> But does 3.5-->3.5 degrade quality substantially versus those RCA audio cables (R/L red white)?


 
  Not that I know of.


----------



## audionewbi

Quote: 





jiggahwhat said:


> I suppose that could work sufficiently.
> 
> But does 3.5-->3.5 degrade quality substantially versus those RCA audio cables (R/L red white)?


 
  In case for ODAC it has zero effect. I highly recommend ODAC. I own two DAC which cost many times more than ODAC and I happily can say ODAC sounds as good as them. Cannot recommend enough.


----------



## jiggahwhat

So I went ahead and bought the E12. Now I need a DAC. Where did you buy your ODAC from? JDSlabs?
   
  Any other DAC suggestions? Preferably in the below $50 range as that is my budget? I really don't know how to tell the difference between DACs. How do you decide?
   
What do you think about this one, for instance?


----------



## audionewbi

Quote: 





jiggahwhat said:


> So I went ahead and bought the E12. Now I need a DAC. Where did you buy your ODAC from? JDSlabs?
> 
> Any other DAC suggestions? Preferably in the below $50 range as that is my budget?


 
  I got mine from noisy motel. Maybe have a look at UD100
   
  http://www.inearmatters.net/2012/09/tiny-dac-big-sound-impression-of-stoner.html


----------



## jiggahwhat

All right. I now have ordered a Hifimediy Sabre USB DAC (which is supposed to have the same components as the ODAC) and of course, the Fiio E12. Let's see how this works with my Hifiman HE-400. I have high expectations.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> It also makes for a great baked potato.
> 
> The IPod undoubtably has enough voltage for the HE-400, probably enough current too, but still... sounds substantially different amped through the E12.


 
   
  But Julian Hirsch said all amps sound the same.........


----------



## KT66

All very well designed amps should sound the same. They should add no signature at all. A straight wire with gain as someone once said. The problem is most amps aren't well designed or built


----------



## bowei006

You are over simplifying the process. Cost, theoreticals, what can actually be done, tolerances, practicality and other things give us our amps today.

All humans should have 10 fingers and two eyes and be between X height and Y weight to be a "well designed" person. Our genes are 99.999% the same. But small changes do make us different.

Same with amps. I can definately see how prople can say they sound the same. They do sound "the same" in a way. It depends on if you care personally enough to isolate those very small things.


----------



## Evshrug

chris j said:


> But Julian Hirsch said all amps sound the same.........:rolleyes:



I'm not claiming to have special ears, and for my wallet's sake i wish all solid state amps sounded the same (which I think was Mr Hirsch's claim, sound science thread huge post with tons of links, right?), and the thread post seemed logical enough to be convincing in most cases once a certain quality level was reached. Ken Rockwell also wrote a lengthy article about just how good iPod audio is (even at 192 kbps AAC compression rate). All I'm saying is... My E12 battery ran out, I plugged it into my iPod to continue listening, and the difference was clear as opposed to something I would question as being up to my imagination. Like the difference between a toasted cheese sandwich and just a plain cheese sandwich... Same ingredients, different experience.

As Boweii said, the factors may be wider beyond E12 + L11 versus iPod's built-in hp amp, there is the whole consideration that my quite old iPod's headphone jack might be corroded or something, it's a whole different circuit path too. In the interest of full disclosure, I originally BOUGHT an LOD because my Sennheiser PX100 was sometimes producing a crackling sound as shorts occurred within the headphone jack. However, I used part of a Q-tip to clean in the jack a few times since then, and the shorting hasn't happened in a long time.


----------



## Craigster75

Relative to variation in headphone sound, variation in amp sound is subtle.  From the discussion, newbies might be perceiving that the differences from amp to amp are much more pronounced than they actually are.  The danger there is that the impression might be given that a different amp can change a headphone into something it isn't as opposed to subtle changes that enhance their SQ. 
   
  The exception would be high impedance headphones that require significant power to be driven to their full potential.  However, since we are talking about portable amps, the majority will be listening through 32 ohm or less headphones/earphones, although the E12 might be the only portable amp in or near its price range to also adequately power hungrier headphones.  Even with Vamp, I run my Sig DJ at about 85%.  Oddly, I can achieve the same volume level at about 50% with my E11, but the soundstage, air and midrange detail is superior with Vamp.


----------



## bowei006

craigster75 said:


> Relative to variation in headphone sound, variation in amp sound is subtle.  From the discussion, newbies might be perceiving that the differences from amp to amp are much more pronounced than they actually are.  The danger there is that the impression might be given that a different amp can change a headphone into something it isn't as opposed to subtle changes that enhance their SQ.




Yes.
$100 headphone with $300 amp and dac. Please, no. 

$300 headphone with $100 amp and dac depending on need for driving or quality then sure


----------



## Evshrug

Well yeah, I said difference between cheese sandwiches (toasted vs not), not a cheese sandwich vs a BLT club sandwich 
I try my best, but there will always be someone who misunderstands.


----------



## miceblue

Quote: 





craigster75 said:


> Relative to variation in headphone sound, variation in amp sound is subtle.  From the discussion, newbies might be perceiving that the differences from amp to amp are much more pronounced than they actually are.  The danger there is that the impression might be given that a different amp can change a headphone into something it isn't as opposed to subtle changes that enhance their SQ.
> 
> The exception would be high impedance headphones that require significant power to be driven to their full potential.  However, since we are talking about portable amps, the majority will be listening through 32 ohm or less headphones/earphones, although the E12 might be the only portable amp in or near its price range to also adequately power hungrier headphones.  Even with Vamp, I run my Sig DJ at about 85%.  Oddly, I can achieve the same volume level at about 50% with my E11, but the soundstage, air and midrange detail is superior with Vamp.


 
  For the most part yes. Of course it depends on the amp, solid state versus tube, but those comparisons usually aren't discussed. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  High impedance headphones don't necessarily need gobs of power to reach their full potential and that's what kind of bugs me about the E12. Most decent portable amps have enough power to drive a DT880 600, or even an HD650 ohm just fine. Most portable amps don't have the power to drive low impedance, low sensitivity headphones such as the HE-400 or LCD-2. It's easy to overestimate how much power a headphone "needs" and Tyll agrees that power claims for even the power-hungry HE-6 (on the order of watts, not milliwatts) may be a bit over the top.


----------



## ravager

It is the awful battery life of the E11 that had me only take a precursory look at the E12, although I really do like its looks. I bought higher capacity batteries, and that helps, but the battery life of the C&C BH is just so much better and has no issues driving my headphone and IEM of choice. (SR325is, SR80i and SE210). I would think if I had a set of cans with a higher impedance then I would lean to the E12, as the reviews have been mostly sparkling.
   
  The nice thing is, these two Chinese companies have provided us incredible sound in the portable realm, without shredding our wallets!


----------



## Chris J

bowei006 said:


> True knowledge can only be attained in the HS lounge.




Hey, what's the HS lounge?




craigster75 said:


> Relative to variation in headphone sound, variation in amp sound is subtle.  From the discussion, newbies might be perceiving that the differences from amp to amp are much more pronounced than they actually are.  The danger there is that the impression might be given that a different amp can change a headphone into something it isn't as opposed to subtle changes that enhance their SQ.
> 
> The exception would be high impedance headphones that require significant power to be driven to their full potential.  However, since we are talking about portable amps, the majority will be listening through 32 ohm or less headphones/earphones, although the E12 might be the only portable amp in or near its price range to also adequately power hungrier headphones.  Even with Vamp, I run my Sig DJ at about 85%.  Oddly, I can achieve the same volume level at about 50% with my E11, but the soundstage, air and midrange detail is superior with Vamp.




Hey man, high impedance cans need more voltage.
Low impedance cans need more current.
A low impedance Beyer DT990 needs just as much power as a high impedance Beyer DT990.
Sorry if I sound like a Mr. Spock or a Sheldon Cooper.

I love trains!




bowei006 said:


> Yes.
> $100 headphone with $300 amp and dac. Please, no.
> 
> $300 headphone with $100 amp and dac depending on need for driving or quality then sure




True that!


----------



## Craigster75

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Hey, what's the HS lounge?
> Hey man, high impedance cans need more voltage.
> Low impedance cans need more current.
> *A low impedance Beyer DT990 needs just as much power as a high impedance Beyer DT990*.
> ...


 

 In the interest of educating someone with admittedly less technical expertise who humbly relies on golden ears to assess SQ, why then is there a direct correlation between higher impedance headphones and lower volume output from those headphones at the same setting with a given amp?
   
  P.S. No apologies needed for sounding like Mr. Spock or Sheldon Cooper as I am fans of both.


----------



## Chris J

craigster75 said:


> In the interest of educating someone with admittedly less technical expertise who humbly relies on golden ears to assess SQ, why then is there a direct correlation between higher impedance headphones and lower volume output from those headphones at the same setting with a given amp?
> 
> P.S. No apologies needed for sounding like Mr. Spock or Sheldon Cooper as I am fans of both.




And I'm a real big fan of Sheldon's sister! 

I'll try to make it short and sweet, I don't want to put anyone to sleep!

Higher volume settings on a headphone amp actually mean more output voltage.
Virtually all headphone amps are voltage sources.
They will output voltage whether headphones are plugged in or not.
But current (and therefore power) are only drawn from a headphone amp if headphones are plugged in.
It can be confusing!


----------



## ravager

Quote: 





chris j said:


> And I'm a real big fan of Sheldon's sister!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Impedance acts like resistance in the analogue realm. Therefore, using Ohms Law, we can *generally* say that Since E=I*R (E = voltage, I = current, and R = resistance), with E being constant, a higher resistance (or in our example, impedance) means less current drawn. Now POWER equation is P = I*E. So with that less current, means less power, for the same potential (voltage). The volume knob varies the voltage, just like Chris said, so in all cases, there will be more power to the headphones when the knob is turned towards max. (It is a little more complicated than this with the alternating current, but for illustration purposes, this will suffice).
   
  So, using canned specs, and comparing 32 ohm to 300 ohm cans, we get something similar to this:
   
  MyAmp puts out 0-11 Volts.
   
  At 5 volts, we can plug in our 32 ohm cans to compute current and wattage (or by substitution, P=E^2/R)
   
  But lets keep things simple. Calculate current, which is I = E/R = 5/32 = .156 amps or 156 milliamps (mA)
  Then the power ( in watts) would be P = I*E = .156 * 5 = .78 watts or 780 milliwatts (mW)
   
  Now do the same thing for the 300 ohm cans. I=E/R = 5/300 = .017 amps or 17 mA
   
  Just by knowing what that equation is, we can see that will give much less power to the headphones
   
  P = I * E = .017 * 5 = .085 watts or 85 mW. Even at 11 volts the power is P = E^2/R = 11*11/300 = 121/300 = 403 mW
   
  In fact, you would need 15.3 volts to get the same "wattage" delivered to the 300 ohm headphones as compared to the 32 ohm at 5 volts.
   
  Now take this information, and apply it what Chris said earlier about: "A low impedance Beyer DT990 needs just as much power as a high impedance Beyer DT990."
   
And you can see why the volume level will be lower, given the same output _voltage_ on the high impedance cans.
   
There has to be a balance though, because if the impendance is too low, there is too much current drawn from the output and bad things can happen, with the least impactful being a blown fuse on the amp)
   
hope this helps.
   
(Geek hat off now)


----------



## KamijoIsMyHero

Quote: 





ravager said:


> Impedance acts like resistance in the analogue realm. Therefore, using Ohms Law, we can *generally* say that Since E=I*R (E = voltage, I = current, and R = resistance), with E being constant, a higher resistance (or in our example, impedance) means less current drawn. Now POWER equation is P = I*E. So with that less current, means less power, for the same potential (voltage). The volume knob varies the voltage, just like Chris said, so in all cases, there will be more power to the headphones when the knob is turned towards max. (It is a little more complicated than this with the alternating current, but for illustration purposes, this will suffice).
> 
> So, using canned specs, and comparing 32 ohm to 300 ohm cans, we get something similar to this:
> 
> ...


 
  in what faculty do you have E as Voltage?


----------



## miceblue

Quote: 





kamijoismyhero said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  It's an annoying notation but I've seen it in textbooks often. The first time I saw it in a supplementary reading, I was like "whaaaat? Why did they use E??" D:
   
  Also, *ravager* is correct about all of the math, but headphones also have a sensitivity rating that affects how much power is needed to get a headphone to reach X dB SPL. More sensitive headphones (i.e. earphones) require less power to reach X dB SPL than less sensitive headphones (i.e. regular 'ol over-ear headphones), thus requiring less voltage (P = E^2 / R), and thus less "volume on the amplifier"; this is why headphones with a lower sensitivity rating require a "higher volume level on the amplifier" than a less sensitive headphone to get to the same volume level.


----------



## scolaiw

Quote: 





kamijoismyhero said:


> in what faculty do you have E as Voltage?


 
   
  Probably E as in 





 for EMF or electromotive force.


----------



## ravager

Quote: 





scolaiw said:


> Probably E as in
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  DIng Ding Ding! I was just trying to keep things simple, e.g. "voltage"
   
  Ha!


----------



## ravager

Quote: 





miceblue said:


> It's an annoying notation but I've seen it in textbooks often. The first time I saw it in a supplementary reading, I was like "whaaaat? Why did they use E??" D:
> 
> Also, *ravager* is correct about all of the math, but headphones also have a sensitivity rating that affects how much power is needed to get a headphone to reach X dB SPL. More sensitive headphones (i.e. earphones) require less power to reach X dB SPL than less sensitive headphones (i.e. regular 'ol over-ear headphones), thus requiring less voltage (P = E^2 / R), and thus less "volume on the amplifier"; this is why headphones with a lower sensitivity rating require a "higher volume level on the amplifier" than a less sensitive headphone to get to the same volume level.


 
  Yes, that is absolutely true, and something I did overlook. I remember the first time I discovered that with a decent pair of Klipsch speakers. Nearly blew out the windows in my German flat!


----------



## KamijoIsMyHero

Quote: 





scolaiw said:


> Probably E as in
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  cool, that symbol makes more sense, E has always been reserved for Electric field, I thought ravager was going to go down to the nitty gritty part of physics lol oh well


----------



## gerald410

My E12 is out for delivery!


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





chris j said:


> But Julian Hirsch said all amps sound the same.........


 
  Just to make my position clear:
  I do not agree with Julian Hirsch.
  I was rolling my eyes at Julian Hirsch!
   
  Quote: 





ravager said:


> *Impedance acts like resistance in the analogue realm. *
> 
> Therefore, using Ohms Law, we can *generally* say that Since E=I*R (E = voltage, I = current, and R = resistance), with E being constant, a higher resistance (or in our example, impedance) means less current drawn. Now POWER equation is P = I*E. So with that less current, means less power, for the same potential (voltage). The volume knob varies the voltage, just like Chris said, so in all cases, there will be more power to the headphones when the knob is turned towards max. (It is a little more complicated than this with the alternating current, but for illustration purposes, this will suffice).
> 
> ...


 
  Well put!
   
  Just wanted to add that the first sentence "Impedance acts like resistance in the analogue realm" is incorrect and rather confusing.
  Digital signals AND Analog Signals must both deal with load impedance, source impedance, line impedance.
  It would be more accurate to say that impedance does not come into play in steady state DC circuits.
   
  Electronics can be confusing, which explains why I never leave the house without my tinfoil hat on!


----------



## ravager

chris j said:


> Just to make my position clear:
> I do not agree with Julian Hirsch.
> I was rolling my eyes at Julian Hirsch!
> 
> ...




It isn't incorrect, as I stated it. And notice the bail-out word "generally" being used. Without getting into RMS, DC loads, and the what not. At any rate, you didn't answer the question, and that was why I jumped in. Just trying to be helpful Chris J!


----------



## ToInfinity

Would anyone know a specific date of release? Or at least early/mid/late march?


----------



## Greed

Quote: 





toinfinity said:


> Would anyone know a specific date of release? Or at least early/mid/late march?


 

 It's already out in the US. -> Miccastore.com


----------



## ToInfinity

How reputable is Micca Store? I've never heard of them.


----------



## gerald410

Quote: 





toinfinity said:


> How reputable is Micca Store? I've never heard of them.


 
  I received mine today, listening to it right now


----------



## audionewbi

Quote: 





toinfinity said:


> How reputable is Micca Store? I've never heard of them.


 
  very, they are the first Fiio official retailer. However I never bought anything from them.


----------



## cizx

I've done business with Micca.  Flawless transaction.  I recommend them.


----------



## ravager

cizx said:


> I've done business with Micca.  Flawless transaction.  I recommend them.



+1 Micca will get you the Fiio amp very quickly. When I bought the E11 they bundled a spare battery and charger for close to the same price.


----------



## Chris J

ravager said:


> It isn't incorrect, as I stated it. And notice the bail-out word "generally" being used. Without getting into RMS, DC loads, and the what not. At any rate, you didn't answer the question, and that was why I jumped in. Just trying to be helpful Chris J!




Next week we'll discuss real power vs. apparent power WRT to reactive power, explain power factor and finsih off with a technical dialogue regarding reactive phase angles and back EMF.

On second thought, let's not bother.

Can anyone suggest a good material for a light metallic hat to block the alien radio waves manipulating my thought patterns?


----------



## audionewbi

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Next week we'll discuss real power vs. apparent power WRT to reactive power, explain power factor and finsih off with a technical dialogue regarding reactive phase angles and back EMF.
> 
> On second thought, let's not bother.
> 
> ...


 
  i dono about any material but Celion Dion on a loop should encrypt all that goes in your head instantly


----------



## JamesFiiO




----------



## solserenade

cizx said:


> I've done business with Micca.  Flawless transaction.  I recommend them.




Same experience here.


----------



## ravager

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Next week we'll discuss real power vs. apparent power WRT to reactive power, explain power factor and finsih off with a technical dialogue regarding reactive phase angles and back EMF.
> 
> On second thought, let's not bother.
> 
> ...


 
  Agree, mate. I didn't think it would be appropriate to to talk about 0 phase angles and the what not. (e.g. "real" part being resistance and complex part being reactance, with impedance being the magnitude of that vector.) Or perhaps we could map the electron flow using PDEs, either analytical or numerical. My point holds. Anyone with a nominal knowledge of electronics will tell you that.
   
  However, this was superseded by the sensitivity discussion.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





ravager said:


> Agree, mate. I didn't think it would be appropriate to to talk about 0 phase angles and the what not. (e.g. "real" part being resistance and complex part being reactance, with impedance being the magnitude of that vector.) Or perhaps we could map the electron flow using PDEs, either analytical or numerical. My point holds. Anyone with a nominal knowledge of electronics will tell you that.
> 
> However, this was superseded by the sensitivity discussion.


 
   
  Might be easier if we use P.U. calculations?
  Should we use magnitude and phase or complex algebra?
  Phasor diagrams?
   
  Note: phasors must be set to "Stun".
   
  I will leave you in charge of mapping electron flow using PDEs. I'm a power engineer.
   
  BTW, the Analog Realm is where Kaleesi is from in "Game Of Thrones". 
  The Iron Throne is located in the Digital Realm.


----------



## ravager

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Might be easier if we use P.U. calculations?
> Should we use magnitude and phase or complex algebra?
> Phasor diagrams?
> 
> ...


 
  I like you Chris. Thanks for the laugh. It is nice to find someone else that has a warped sense of humor. Analog Realm...I really need to watch GoT. : ) Phasor diagrams ARE really illustrative though, don't you think? We even use those in climate science and atmospheric dynamics.


----------



## drmrwt

anyone tried the dt770 250 ohm with these? also which portable dac should i get?


----------



## gerald410

Quote: 





drmrwt said:


> anyone tried the dt770 250 ohm with these? also which portable dac should i get?


 
  I have dt990 250 Ohm with these, it seems like the treble has been tamed a bit(which I like). I also have the E17, I haven't had a chance to use the Dac of the E17 will try tomorrow when the adapter gets here.


----------



## kskwerl

Can this amp drive 250ohm beyers, I had the Leckerton MKII and while it drove them I didn't think it drove them with authority. Can anyone tell me if the e12 is more powerful than the Leckerton, here are the leckertons specs:
   

 Max output power (1% THD):
 30 mW into 16 ohms
 55 mW into 32 ohms
 110 mW into 100 ohms
 55 mW into 300 ohms

 THD+N at 1 kHz (optical input, 20 Hz to 80 kHz bandwidth, no weighting):
 0.0035%, 1 mW into 16 ohms
 0.0060%, 1 mW into 32 ohms
 0.0022%, 1 mW into 100 ohms
 0.0035%, 1 mW into 300 ohms


----------



## kskwerl

Max output power (1% THD):
 30 mW into 16 ohms
 55 mW into 32 ohms
 110 mW into 100 ohms
 55 mW into 300 ohms

 THD+N at 1 kHz (optical input, 20 Hz to 80 kHz bandwidth, no weighting):
 0.0035%, 1 mW into 16 ohms
 0.0060%, 1 mW into 32 ohms
 0.0022%, 1 mW into 100 ohms
 0.0035%, 1 mW into 300 ohms


----------



## kskwerl

sorry for double post


----------



## KamijoIsMyHero

Quote: 





kskwerl said:


> Can this amp drive 250ohm beyers, I had the Leckerton MKII and while it drove them I didn't think it drove them with authority. Can anyone tell me if the e12 is more powerful than the Leckerton, here are the leckertons specs:
> 
> 
> Max output power (1% THD):
> ...


 
   

 *Output Power* >880mW@32Ω
   

 *THD* <0.005%
   
  it trumps the leckerton in terms of power
   
  that spec sheet is weird though, does it have variable gain or something


----------



## gerald410

Imho they most certainly can drive 250 Ohm Beyers or at least they're able to drive mine
  Ps I should've never removed my avatar now i can't add one


----------



## syobwoc

I just picked up an E17, but now i've got some second thoughts after this thread. But I like the eq on the E17. hmmm..decisions decisions....


----------



## gerald410

Quote: 





syobwoc said:


> I just picked up an E17, but now i've got some second thoughts after this thread. But I like the eq on the E17. hmmm..decisions decisions....


 
  I like the sound using the E17, arguably better that the E12 right now. I attribute that to the absence of an external DAC when using the E12 right now.


----------



## Chris J

kamijoismyhero said:


> *Output Power
> *
> 
> 
> ...




The Leck probably has an output impedance of 100 Ohms!


----------



## kskwerl

thanks guys


----------



## Chris J

ravager said:


> I like you Chris. Thanks for the laugh. It is nice to find someone else that has a warped sense of humor. Analog Realm...I really need to watch GoT. : ) Phasor diagrams ARE really illustrative though, don't you think? We even use those in climate science and atmospheric dynamics.




Hey I like your sense of humour too!
Us Power Engineers use phasor diagrams quite a bit. They really help us out.
If you haven't seen GoT then the Analog Realm is just West of Mordor. Mordor is the Digital Realm.
I must admit that I have no idea what Mapping Electron Flow with PDEs is?
Partial Differential Equations?:mad:


----------



## Bill-P

Quote: 





chris j said:


> The Leck probably has an output impedance of 100 Ohms!


 
   
  According to InnerFidelity, it's 0.4 Ohm...
  http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/leckerton-uha-6s-mkii-portable-headphone-amplifier
   
  So the plot thickens...
   
  Though I must admit, the Leck is looking mighty tempting considering the price, and also the fact that they're offering it with OPA627, which is my personal favorite.


----------



## Chris J

bill-p said:


> According to InnerFidelity, it's 0.4 Ohm...
> http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/leckerton-uha-6s-mkii-portable-headphone-amplifier
> 
> So the plot thickens...
> ...




Then my next guess is that it is very limited in current output, hence the low power output into low impedance loads!


----------



## Chris J

Double post.[


----------



## jacknight

i have dt770/250 is it a good pair with E12?


----------



## Chris J

jacknight said:


> i have dt770/250 is it a good pair with E12?




If your question is:

does the E12 have enough power to drive 250 Ohm Beyer DT770 then the answer is yes!
Should not be a problem.


----------



## jacknight

Quote: 





chris j said:


> If your question is:
> 
> does the E12 have enough power to drive 250 Ohm Beyer DT770 then the answer is yes!
> Should not be a problem.


 
   
  no it's not the power, i mean the sound, i want to tame the high and add the bass, and more body to the mid, can E12 do that?


----------



## Bill-P

Quote: 





jacknight said:


> no it's not the power, i mean the sound, i want to tame the high and add the bass, and more body to the mid, can E12 do that?


 
   
  Yep. It'll do exactly that.


----------



## ToInfinity

How does everyone think the E12 would perform with the HE-500's? I predict that I will want to travel with the 500's and NOT bring my entire setup....I've heard the E12 is ridiculously powerful


----------



## Bill-P

Actually, I won't even "think" about that, because I have plugged the HE-500 into E12 for real.
   
  If you plan on traveling with HE-500, then it's better to lug along an O2.


----------



## beedee

I just received the E12 a couple of days ago and so far I'm pleased.  Overall, the E12 seems to be more linear (flatter sound) than the E11, which I prefer.  My only question is why the E11 (around 5 on volume knob) would be as loud as the E12 (at almost max volume).  Both are in the "normal" position.  However, when the E12 is kicked into high gain, it's no contest.  I didn't get to read the whole thread, so apologies if this was already discussed.


----------



## ToInfinity

Quote: 





bill-p said:


> Actually, I won't even "think" about that, because I have plugged the HE-500 into E12 for real.
> 
> If you plan on traveling with HE-500, then it's better to lug along an O2.


 
  I'll pass on the O2...here too many mixed opinions about it! And I'd rather not buy another amp just for the 500's. I'm a "one amp" kind of guy! I'll just have to see how the e12 fairs...and I'll something good to compare it to


----------



## Bill-P

To be fair, I don't think either the O2 or E12 is a good match for the HE-500. You may want to get a desktop amp if you plan to get the most out of the HE-500. It's such a power hog because its sensitivity is so low.


----------



## jiggahwhat

I'm sure you could adequately run the HE-500s out of either amp but you would need a desktop amp to get the most out of the sound. Given you probably won't be moving around with the HE-500s much, it doesn't really make sense to go with the E12s.


----------



## miceblue

Quote: 





jiggahwhat said:


> I'm sure you could adequately run the HE-500s out of either amp but you would need a desktop amp to get the most out of the sound. Given you probably won't be moving around with the HE-500s much, it doesn't really make sense to go with the E12s.


 
  If either can adequately run the HE-500, what advantage does a so-called desktop amp have over the other two (other than more input/output ports, and excluding tube amplifiers)?


----------



## Greed

Quote: 





bill-p said:


> To be fair, I don't think either the O2 or E12 is a good match for the HE-500. You may want to get a desktop amp if you plan to get the most out of the HE-500. It's such a power hog because its sensitivity is so low.


 

 He wants something to travel with though, so a desktop amplifier would not suit his needs.
   
   
  Quote: 





miceblue said:


> If either can adequately run the HE-500, what advantage does a so-called desktop amp have over the other two (other than more input/output ports, and excluding tube amplifiers)?


 
   
  Adequately powering something isn't the same thing as powering headphones to their full potential.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





greed said:


> Adequately powering something isn't the same thing as powering headphones to their full potential.


 
   
   
  I agree.
  I can listen to my AKG Q701s using my iPod, iPad or HP notebook.
  But I don't hear the full potential of the Q701s.
  Personally, I did not buy the Q701 to use with those sources.
  YMMV.


----------



## miceblue

Quote: 





greed said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Mmkay, so what does "full potential" mean and what does a desktop amp provide that a portable amp can't? If it's the amplifier itself and the way it sounds, that's one thing, but that can't be the only reason since it's being implied that a desktop amp can provide something a portable amp can't.


----------



## Bill-P

Well, proper grounding for one. And more power...


----------



## Greed

Quote: 





miceblue said:


> Mmkay, so what does "full potential" mean and what does a desktop amp provide that a portable amp can't? If it's the amplifier itself and the way it sounds, that's one thing, but that can't be the only reason since it's being implied that a desktop amp can provide something a portable amp can't.


 

 Well without going into technical details and derailing this thread.. the most obvious difference is the power output. Also keep in mind that that when a designer has intentions of making a portable amp, they always have to account for space. Footprint is one of the major restrictions for designers when making a portable amp. No one will want to buy an overly large portable amp, especially with "on-to-go" needs. I'd consider full potential as being able to power a pair of headphones authoritatively while also, figuratively speaking... breathing "life" into them. It is a tough thing to describe, but hearing a headphone from a portable amp and then a full sized desktop amp usually tends to be a huge difference, everything sound fuller and more bodied. Sometimes the effects maybe negative, that's when synergy and such comes into play, but typically speaking the word full comes to mind.


----------



## miceblue

greed said:


> miceblue said:
> 
> 
> > Mmkay, so what does "full potential" mean and what does a desktop amp provide that a portable amp can't? If it's the amplifier itself and the way it sounds, that's one thing, but that can't be the only reason since it's being implied that a desktop amp can provide something a portable amp can't.
> ...



I kind of see where you're going with this but it doesn't quite make sense to me. The E12 has plenty of output power. If power output is the obvious difference, are you saying that if I use a sensitive 32 Ω headphone, a weaker amp should make the headphones sound "less full" than with the E12 given every other aspect of the amp is exactly the same and playing music at the same volume level without clipping, and without adding extra noise? How does output power affect how "full" a headphone sounds?


----------



## Chris J

miceblue said:


> I kind of see where you're going with this but it doesn't quite make sense to me. The E12 has plenty of output power. If power output is the obvious difference, are you saying that if I use a sensitive 32 Ω headphone, a weaker amp should make the headphones sound "less full" than with the E12 given every other aspect of the amp is exactly the same and playing music at the same volume level without clipping, and without adding extra noise? How does output power affect how "full" a headphone sounds?




Basically if the amplifier can output enough voltage and current to deliver enough power to your 'phones without clipping at an actual listening level then you are half way there! And I'm not talking about an amp that can deliver 20 times more power than your Grados actually require!
Obviously you also need a decent signal to noise ratio and low enough distortion. Not just low THD, also low IMD. 
Throw in a quiet power supply. 
 I have a few headphone amps, only one is quiet enough to drive my Shure IEMs.
I was surprised to find out that even some of my battery operated headphone amps are too noisy for my IEMs. I had assumed that if you get off the power grid them you should get reduced background hash. Guess what?
One of my battery powered amps creates too much low level buzz. And this is when it runs off batteries! i.e. charger not connected, source not connected.
Oh, and Flat frequency response throughout the audio bandwidth.
Circuit board needs to be laid out properly.
The right components have to be chosen and applied properly.

Want more?
Talk to someone who actually designs audio gear for a living.
Someone who has designed a few products which have sold a few thousand pieces with negligible warranty claims.
Can't find an audio designer in your neighbourhood?
Try reading one of the books written by noted audio designer Douglas Self.

The rest of us really only understand a small part of what separates the good from the great.
I've worked as a professional electrical engineer for many years as a power engineer. I even designed analog signal processing gear for a year. But I know enough to know that I am not an expert in audio signal design.

I'll stop ranting now.....


----------



## miceblue

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Ah, I see. So it's more about the optimisation of the circuit itself rather than only just the power. Thank you for the explanation! I'll have to check out Douglas Self's books now.


----------



## gavinfabl

I have been using my Sennheiser HD558's and Bose AE2i (train headphones ) and so far really impressed. In about a week or so I should receive a pair of the new audio technica ath-ad900x so will update my review no page 38 and on headgear section. 

Also bidding today on a pair of Sony MDR-1R. Loads of these for sale on eBay from people selling these that came free with their new Sony Xperia Z. New these cost £250-300 but on eBay around £110-120. I like a bargain.


----------



## Evshrug

Wish I had affiliate links... Maybe I'll do that in the future, but I didn't make time for that before jumping into the review itself. Kinda peeved that in the stats of my E12 video, I saw a store post Boweii's video and mine on their product page to increase their sales. Happy to work for ya guys for free, while I go back to flipping burgers tomorrow :rolleyes:


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





miceblue said:


> Ah, I see. So it's more about the optimisation of the circuit itself rather than only just the power. Thank you for the explanation! I'll have to check out Douglas Self's books now.


 
   
  Why didn't I just say that?  LOL!
  I like your right to the point summation!


----------



## gavinfabl

evshrug said:


> Wish I had affiliate links... Maybe I'll do that in the future, but I didn't make time for that before jumping into the review itself. Kinda peeved that in the stats of my E12 video, I saw a store post Boweii's video and mine on their product page to increase their sales. Happy to work for ya guys for free, while I go back to flipping burgers tomorrow :rolleyes:




I did everything for free too. How do you get affiliate links?


----------



## bowei006

evshrug said:


> Wish I had affiliate links... Maybe I'll do that in the future, but I didn't make time for that before jumping into the review itself. Kinda peeved that in the stats of my E12 video, I saw a store post Boweii's video and mine on their product page to increase their sales. Happy to work for ya guys for free, while I go back to flipping burgers tomorrow :rolleyes:


What? What store?


----------



## Evshrug

They credit us, but... here: http://store.treoo.com/index.php/main/fiio-e12-mont-blanc-portable-headphone-amplifier.html _[Mod Edit: Affiliate links aren't permitted here.]_
  There may be others too of course. I think it's just sorta the thing that happens when you make reviews.
   
  PS, I like your new avatar ^____^


----------



## bowei006

evshrug said:


> They credit us, but... here: http://store.treoo.com/index.php/main/fiio-e12-mont-blanc-portable-headphone-amplifier.html] _[Mod Edit: Affiliate links aren't permitted here.]_
> There may be others too of course. I think it's just sorta the thing that happens when you make reviews.
> 
> PS, I like your new avatar ^____^


Thanks. Its for Muppet March.

What do you guys mean by Affiliate links?


----------



## Evshrug

Common practice for professional, independent reviewers. You can contact a store and request to become an affiliate, then if people watch/read your review and then use a link to a store to make a purchase based off your review (the store gives you a hyperlink that let's them know the customer came from you), you get a small commission off the sale.


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Common practice for professional, independent reviewers. You can contact a store and request to become an affiliate, then if people watch/read your review and then use a link to a store to make a purchase based off your review (the store gives you a hyperlink that let's them know the customer came from you), you get a small commission off the sale.


 
  I'm not really a feisty or very 'brave' individual to ask those kind of things.


----------



## miceblue

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Common practice for professional, independent reviewers. You can contact a store and request to become an affiliate, then if people watch/read your review and then use a link to a store to make a purchase based off your review (the store gives you a hyperlink that let's them know the customer came from you), you get a small commission off the sale.


 
  Wah, that's pretty neat. I didn't know companies do that.


----------



## jiminy

Hold on to your hats, you are gonna love this question.
   
  can I use it to power Bose q15 a little louder. I know the Bose has its own inbuilt amp and I don't want to blow it up.


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





jiminy said:


> Hold on to your hats, you are gonna love this question.
> 
> can I use it to power Bose q15 a little louder. I know the Bose has its own inbuilt amp and I don't want to blow it up.


 
  You won't blow anything up unless you turn the volume up on (very very high)a powerful amp very high.
   
  The drivers will probably suffer damage before the current from the more powerful amp backfeeds and blows everything.


----------



## waynes world

I mainly got the E12 (v1) for my AD900X's. But I am very pleasantly surprised about how well it also pairs with my closed JVC S500's. Impressions here.


----------



## bowei006

Added the E12 vs O2 section to my review:
   
   


> *FiiO E12 with Custom Project-H (Objective 2 w/ Burr Brown op amp and Cirrus Logic flagship DAC)*
> With the DAC being the CS4398, the FiiO E12 does a good job up against the O2. The O2's vocals are more forward and louder than the E12's. The depth on the E12's vocals are also much better. The seperation and soundstage of the mids(instruments) is also superior on the O2. The O2 is just a bit sweeter than the E12. The E12, I would say is a bit colder than the O2. Of course, colder does not equal more neutral. The O2 would be the more neutral amp, but the O2 accentuates more parts of the song than the E12 does. Now you are thinking, how can the O2 be more neutral if it accentuates more things? Well neutrality is a word that goes into the best reproduction of music and how neutral will theoretically reproduce the music better. And the O2 does reproduce it better than the E12. The overal transparency on the O2 is also better than the E12. However, the units are still nice and closely matched. I'm quite surprised how close they are. To some, the distance between the two may not warrant one or the other, and to some, the distance is huge(purists). But whatever it is, I think that the E12 does a very good job against the O2. It's only that while on the go, I personally prefer a more warmer sound than what the E12 offer.


 
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/650683/fiio-e12-mont-blanc-review-and-help-thread


----------



## jiggahwhat

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Common practice for professional, independent reviewers. You can contact a store and request to become an affiliate, then if people watch/read your review and then use a link to a store to make a purchase based off your review (the store gives you a hyperlink that let's them know the customer came from you), you get a small commission off the sale.


 

 Sounds like a conflict of interest. Reviewers interested in making money would deliberately inflate scores and give overwhelmingly positive reviews.


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





jiggahwhat said:


> Sounds like a conflict of interest. Reviewers interested in making money would deliberately inflate scores and give overwhelmingly positive reviews.


 
  I didn't think it was commonplace?
   
  But then again, who knows.


----------



## Evshrug

jiggahwhat said:


> Sounds like a conflict of interest. Reviewers interested in making money would deliberately inflate scores and give overwhelmingly positive reviews.




Could be a conflict, that's why most people with affiliate connections go for a more "reporter" style review where they don't usually pick favorites. Then again, some reviewers DO pick favorites and only write reviews on products they like. Lastly, I bet there are some sell-outs like you say, but that strategy is very bad long-term because it hurts one's reputation to give bad advice. I think it's only a problem if the reviewer is asked to lie, or ignore some glaring defect.

DPRreview.com (camera review website) used to be supported by affiliate links until they were bought by amazon, some individual reviewers such as Steven Huff (unabashed fan of Leica cameras, and capable compacts) and Ken Rockwell make their living (or a good part of it) with affiliate links. The most careful, well-versed, and in-depth reviewers spend a LOT of time on their craft, and barring a massive inheritance there is no way they could $pend so much time and pay the bills without compensation. Where do you think professional reviews come from? It's just that, in this digital age, individuals can be professional reviewers instead of being part of a magazine or journal. If the affiliate compensation comes from Amazon or some other store carrying various brands, then the reviewer is more free to be honest.


----------



## gavinfabl

I used to have a long time ago the Fiio E9 desktop amp. I have the E17 which was got to eventually pair up with the newer E09k amp. 

But the E12 with my iPod Classic just sounds so incredible no matter what headphone I have used with it that I wonder if the E12 is Fiio's best sounding amp regardless. I keep the bass boost on the E12. 

Has anyone got the E12 and the E09K ? And if so can you give any feedback between the 2. I really think the E12 provides a better sound overall. 

The E12 is the only amp where I am toe tapping constantly to the music. It's not about the technical figures sometimes, its about the experience.


----------



## Currawong

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Wish I had affiliate links... Maybe I'll do that in the future, but I didn't make time for that before jumping into the review itself. Kinda peeved that in the stats of my E12 video, I saw a store post Boweii's video and mine on their product page to increase their sales. Happy to work for ya guys for free, while I go back to flipping burgers tomorrow


 
   
  You may want to know: Affiliate links can't be posted here any more than a store or person can post advertising (without first becoming a sponsor). If you have a blog that is making money from affiliate links, that makes you a "Member of the Trade" and would, in effect, kill much of your ability to post on the forums at all.


----------



## Lifted Andreas

Only 12 hours battery life??
   
  Thats poor lol


----------



## Craigster75

Quote: 





lifted andreas said:


> Only 12 hours battery life??
> 
> Thats poor lol


 

 A fair price to pay for the high power they offer.  Also, 12 hours is much longer than my Iphone lasts.  I only get 3 or 4 hours at most out of my V-Moda Vamp.


----------



## miceblue

Quote: 





craigster75 said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Doesn't the VAMP charge the iPhone? If you get 3-4 hours out of the iPhone, with the VAMP charging it, that's a lot of usage.


----------



## scolaiw

Quote: 





miceblue said:


> Doesn't the VAMP charge the iPhone? If you get 3-4 hours out of the iPhone, with the VAMP charging it, that's a lot of usage.


 
   
  You can set it to charge the iPhone whilst using the VAMP or use it independently.


----------



## Chris J

evshrug said:


> Could be a conflict, that's why most people with affiliate connections go for a more "reporter" style review where they don't usually pick favorites. Then again, some reviewers DO pick favorites and only write reviews on products they like. Lastly, I bet there are some sell-outs like you say, but that strategy is very bad long-term because it hurts one's reputation to give bad advice. I think it's only a problem if the reviewer is asked to lie, or ignore some glaring defect.
> 
> DPRreview.com (camera review website) used to be supported by affiliate links until they were bought by amazon, some individual reviewers such as Steven Huff (unabashed fan of Leica cameras, and capable compacts) and Ken Rockwell make their living (or a good part of it) with affiliate links. The most careful, well-versed, and in-depth reviewers spend a LOT of time on their craft, and barring a massive inheritance there is no way they could $pend so much time and pay the bills without compensation. Where do you think professional reviews come from? It's just that, in this digital age, individuals can be professional reviewers instead of being part of a magazine or journal. If the affiliate compensation comes from Amazon or some other store carrying various brands, then the reviewer is more free to be honest.




.........and we all know how objective Ken Rockwell is!


----------



## Craigster75

Quote: 





miceblue said:


> Doesn't the VAMP charge the iPhone? If you get 3-4 hours out of the iPhone, with the VAMP charging it, that's a lot of usage.


 
   
  Quote: 





scolaiw said:


> You can set it to charge the iPhone whilst using the VAMP or use it independently.


 

 3-4 hours is without phone charging selected.  If I use and have charging selected, it is much less time.  I can't get through a heavy listening day without needing a charging break.  I hope Versa is better in that regard.


----------



## jacknight

Quote: 





jacknight said:


> no it's not the power, i mean the sound, i want to tame the high and add the bass, and more body to the mid, can E12 do that?


 
   
  Quote: 





bill-p said:


> Yep. It'll do exactly that.


 
   
  how if I compared with e09k in that term?


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





currawong said:


> You may want to know: Affiliate links can't be posted here any more than a store or person can post advertising (without first becoming a sponsor). If you have a blog that is making money from affiliate links, that makes you a "Member of the Trade" and would, in effect, kill much of your ability to post on the forums at all.


 
  I see, thanks for the note! 
  Quote: 





lifted andreas said:


> Only 12 hours battery life??
> 
> Thats poor lol


 
  I actually only get 7-8 hours from it.


----------



## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> I see, thanks for the note!
> I actually only get 7-8 hours from it.


 
   
  That is the cost for the sound quality. there are not magic in electronics . our E7's battery life is about 100hours with a 1050mAh battery.
   
  Also I got one amps which has 80 hours battery life, what I can say is that the supply voltage is only +3.7V and the power output even small than our E6, which can explained lots of thing.


----------



## waynes world

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> That is the cost for the sound quality. there are not magic in electronics . our E7's battery life is about 100hours with a 1050mAh battery.
> 
> Also I got one amps which has 80 hours battery life, what I can say is that the supply voltage is only +3.7V and the power output even small than our E6, which can explained lots of thing.


 
   
  Is it OK to use it while charging? Or is that not really advised?


----------



## bowei006

waynes world said:


> Is it OK to use it while charging? Or is that not really advised?


Yes you can. Small noise though


----------



## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





waynes world said:


> Is it OK to use it while charging? Or is that not really advised?


 
   
  you can buy a iPad's wall power adapter, do remember the best is the original power adapter from Apple, it can provide enough current so the E12 can use the fast charge speed and less noise.


----------



## waynes world

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> Yes you can. Small noise though


 
   
  Thanks. I was concerned that it might not be the best for the battery (ie lessen the lifespan or something). If it's not problem to charge & use at the same time though, I'm a very happy camper.
   
  Btw, I'm loving the E12 - the synergy with my AD900X, S500 and GR07BE's is *very* nice. Although version 2 will be great, I am incredibly happy with the bass boost of version 1. And although I didn't think I would care about how nicely it is built, it really is a beautifully crafted gizmo.
  Well done Fiio!


----------



## Chris J

I'm not sure if this has been posted here before......
For all you Canadian E12 fans, Headfoneshop tells me they should get the E12 in sometime this month!


----------



## waynes world

Quote: 





chris j said:


> I'm not sure if this has been posted here before......
> For all you Canadian E12 fans, Headfoneshop tells me they should get the E12 in sometime this month!


 
   
_This_ Canadian wanted version 1 and couldn't wait, so I managed to get one from Miccastore. I wonder though if Headfoneshop will have V1 or V2? My guess is V2.... which is fine as long as people know which version they are getting.


----------



## Evshrug

currawong said:


> You may want to know: Affiliate links can't be posted here any more than a store or person can post advertising (without first becoming a sponsor). If you have a blog that is making money from affiliate links, that makes you a "Member of the Trade" and would, in effect, kill much of your ability to post on the forums at all.



Yeah, I understand, and I agree with the policy too so that the forum doesn't (usually) get plagued by spam. I wrote reviews of my personal equipment just for fun, but it kinda bugged me that some random store used my youtube video (and Gavin's blog reviews). I'm not too worried about it though: of course I'm still displayed as the author, and it seems only a few people have watched it through that store's site. Just sort of the nature of putting content out in the public, I guess. It feels weird to be quoted by strangers.



chris j said:


> .........and we all know how objective Ken Rockwell is!



Lol Steven Huff isn't objective either, at least for the most part. I was in the photography world before actually working as a traveling portrait photographer killed my interest and music (alongside gaming) became my new pastime, and that was where I first heard of Ken. People there poo-poo'd him as a Nikon fanboy, and I don't take his word as hard truth, BUT he has tried a lot of stuff and sometimes makes a good point. I appreciate his effort, even if I don't always agree with him. Usually an entertaining read anyway.


----------



## leogodoy

evshrug said:


> Lol Steven Huff isn't objective either, at least for the most part. I was in the photography world before actually working as a traveling portrait photographer killed my interest and music (alongside gaming) became my new pastime, and that was where I first heard of Ken. People there poo-poo'd him as a Nikon fanboy, and I don't take his word as hard truth, BUT he has tried a lot of stuff and sometimes makes a good point. I appreciate his effort, even if I don't always agree with him. Usually an entertaining read anyway.




My 0.02, as a journalist: bias is something we all try to stay clear, but some will always "leak". As long it is powered by personal passion and preferences, it is ok. I mean, readers learn to balance your opinion if you are clearly a "Canonite" or a Nikon fan.

The problem begins when your opinions are driven by money. Money can come from anywhere so the readers will never know what is your bias on any given review.


----------



## Koopa989

any official update on the 'modified' or 'V2' version of the E12 with the adjusted bass boost? 

I would probably, very likely, buy it when its available.


----------



## bowei006

waynes world said:


> Thanks. I was concerned that it might not be the best for the battery (ie lessen the lifespan or something). If it's not problem to charge & use at the same time though, I'm a very happy camper.
> 
> Btw, I'm loving the E12 - the synergy with my AD900X, S500 and GR07BE's is *very* nice. Although version 2 will be great, I am incredibly happy with the bass boost of version 1. And although I didn't think I would care about how nicely it is built, it really is a beautifully crafted gizmo.
> Well done Fiio!


 To be perfectly honest. Just using the E12 is bad for battery in the sense that now it is getting slightly "weared". 

You cant enjoy and use a unit while babying it. People can think. Does using and charging produce more tear on the battery? Well a bit. But the real effects are hard to measure. But none the less. Sure it does. Doing ANYTHING is by definition bad for the battery.

I did the math for the E17 following general li ion life span. I didnt do it for e12 yet. But following general life span. You could charge up and use E17 and recharge it continuously for two years before battery life drops to about half the time.


----------



## waynes world

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> To be perfectly honest. Just using the E12 is bad for battery in the sense that now it is getting slightly "weared".
> 
> You cant enjoy and use a unit while babying it. People can think. Does using and charging produce more tear on the battery? Well a bit. But the real effects are hard to measure. But none the less. Sure it does. *Doing ANYTHING is by definition bad for the battery.*


 
   
  In that case, I'm not going to use it. Fortunately it looks good, so I'm just going to put it in a little pedestal and admire it from afar.
   
  Quote: 





> I did the math for the E17 following general li ion life span. I didnt do it for e12 yet. But following general life span. *You could charge up and use E17 and recharge it continuously for two years before battery life drops to about half the time.*


 
   
  Well, in *that* case, it's coming down off of it's pedestal and getting used and abused lol!
   
  Seriously though, thanks for that input.


----------



## jiggahwhat

So what should constitute most of the volume? The gain? My laptop volume? Or the amp volume? Which one should I use the most?


----------



## miceblue

Quote: 





jiggahwhat said:


> So what should constitute most of the volume? The gain? My laptop volume? Or the amp volume? Which one should I use the most?


 
  Typically you want to set the laptop volume to very high, set the gain to the lowest setting when possible, and adjust the volume with the amp itself. If the volume doesn't get loud enough with the laptop and amp volumes on max, then you should turn up the gain.


----------



## Chris J

waynes world said:


> In that case, I'm not going to use it. Fortunately it looks good, so I'm just going to put it in a little pedestal and admire it from afar.
> 
> 
> Well, in *that* case, it's coming down off of it's pedestal and getting used and abused lol!
> ...





It's a Lithium technology battery.
Don't worry about battery life!
Just use and enjoy it!


----------



## waynes world

Quote: 





miceblue said:


> Typically you want to set the laptop volume to very high, set the gain to the lowest setting when possible, and adjust the volume with the amp itself. If the volume doesn't get loud enough with the laptop and amp volumes on max, then you should turn up the gain.


 
   
  Excuse my ignorance, but why "set the gain to the lowest setting when possible"?
   
  Also, does it make a difference to the battery drain either way?


----------



## miceblue

Quote: 





waynes world said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  I'm not sure about the battery life, but as for the gain, a lower gain introduces less noise into the audio system. Usually it's recommended to only use the gain switch when necessary (i.e. headphones sound too quiet at max volumes).


----------



## Evshrug

Pretty sure high gain uses more energy. Basically, I only would use high gain if turning the volume knob all the way up wasn't loud enough... None of my headphones "reach" halfway on the amp before becoming too loud. Some people have posted that high-gain makes the sound more dynamic, but I haven't bothered trying except to see if there was any background noise.

If connecting to another headphone jack, ideally you want the input going into the amp to not be cut at all, so you don't lose information and dynamic range. That usually means max or close to max volume from your source, but you may want to reduce a bit from max so you don't suffer clipping from the weaker amp in your source (and get the best signal-to-noise ratio possible). Basically, I set my iPod or computer at 90% volume, and control the listening volume from my amp, and when I use the FiiO L11 line-out dock adapter (LOD) I turn the volume all the way down because the iPod will send a baseline line-out volume through the LOD anyway.


----------



## waynes world

Thanks!


----------



## sfwalcer

^ Thanks you'll for all the info above on gain and volume levels setting, will be getting my 1st amp as well within couple of days so my noob @ss is soaking it in like a sponge. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  edit: And thanks WAYNE for asking such noob questions. Sure helps out fellow noobs like me as well.


----------



## Evshrug

Lol if I'm not considered a noob by others anymore, then I'm still only an intermediate


----------



## KamijoIsMyHero

Quote: 





sfwalcer said:


> ^ Thanks you'll for all the info above on gain and volume levels setting, will be getting my 1st amp as well within couple of days so my noob @ss is soaking it in like a sponge.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  you got a thousand plus posts and you are still a noob? would it help if this place was in korean?


----------



## sfwalcer

Quote: 





kamijoismyhero said:


> you got a thousand plus posts and you are still a noob? would it help if this place was in korean?


 

 Say What?!! What are you trying to say Kami, your comment kinda lost me there? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  It would help if these amps have hot pics of Korean ladies all over them, or even better comes with one, and I prefer them to be home grown in Korea. But sadly like all things cheap and wonderful these dayz it's made in CHina, w/o the sexy babes. :  (
   
  Oh those post numbers, haha 98% of them are troll counts, so meaningful/ insightful ones are only like less than 100, hence my noob status. Forever be noob.


----------



## Chris J

waynes world said:


> Excuse my ignorance, but why "set the gain to the lowest setting when possible"?
> 
> Also, does it make a difference to the battery drain either way?




Gain setting has no real effect on energy usage (battery drain).

Battery drain is related to how much power you are driving into the headphones.


----------



## Evshrug

chris j said:


> Gain setting has no real effect on energy usage (battery drain).
> 
> Battery drain is related to how much power you are driving into the headphones.




See? I'm only intermediate, lol. It just seemed likely that if between two gain settings with the volume dial (and apparent dial) the volume is louder on high gain, it would've used more energy from the battery. Nothing for free, and all that. But I defer to Chris J on the technical stuff.


----------



## sfwalcer

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> See? I'm only intermediate, lol. It just seemed likely that if between two gain settings with the volume dial (and apparent dial) the volume is louder on high gain, it would've used more energy from the battery. Nothing for free, and all that. But I defer to Chris J on the technical stuff.


 

 LoL, still better than me. Gonna be getting my 1st amp in the next weeks and i thought gain was "grain" before. haha More grain = more noise have no idea why it makes me think that way. LMAO
   
  So my days of going commando is up it seems. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Counting my days, cuz once you get ampped i think it's hard to go back to stock, no???


----------



## gavinfabl

Received a pair of Sony mdr-1r and Audio Technica ath-ad900X headphones. Burning them in for 24 hours before I compare with E12. 

Both are incredible headphones in different many.


----------



## gavinfabl

evshrug said:


> Yeah, I understand, and I agree with the policy too so that the forum doesn't (usually) get plagued by spam. I wrote reviews of my personal equipment just for fun, but it kinda bugged me that some random store used my youtube video (and Gavin's blog reviews). I'm not too worried about it though: of course I'm still displayed as the author, and it seems only a few people have watched it through that store's site. Just sort of the nature of putting content out in the public, I guess. It feels weird to be quoted by strangers.
> Lol Steven Huff isn't objective either, at least for the most part. I was in the photography world before actually working as a traveling portrait photographer killed my interest and music (alongside gaming) became my new pastime, and that was where I first heard of Ken. People there poo-poo'd him as a Nikon fanboy, and I don't take his word as hard truth, BUT he has tried a lot of stuff and sometimes makes a good point. I appreciate his effort, even if I don't always agree with him. Usually an entertaining read anyway.




I noticed that too that our reviews had appeared elsewhere. My review on my wordpress blog, gavinsgadgets, is also totally free of advertising which I paid WordPress to remove. And yet others benefit. Not fair IMO.


----------



## Chris J

evshrug said:


> See? I'm only intermediate, lol. It just seemed likely that if between two gain settings with the volume dial (and apparent dial) the volume is louder on high gain, it would've used more energy from the battery. Nothing for free, and all that. But I defer to Chris J on the technical stuff.





Ohhhhhhhhh.
I should have given a more detailed answer.

Assuming you are not changing headphones:

Let's say you are listening to your 'phones at a quiet volume with gain set at low.
If you change the gain to high, without changing the volume settings then obviously the SPL at you ears will be much louder. In this case, yes, more energy (power) and your batteries drain faster on high gain.

But if you try to compare sound of low gain to high gain and you adjust volume up and down to compensate for change in gain so that SPL at your ears remains the same, then, rate of battery drain remains unchanged.

Rate of battery drain is related to the actual power used. I had assumed that you turn the volume down when you increase the gain because that's what I do if I am NOT swapping headphones around, i.e. I am NOT going from a quiet headphone ((like the AKG Q701) to a loud headphone (like an IEM), I amm sticking to ONE headphone and comparing effect of gain on that headphone.


----------



## gavinfabl

If anyone is wondering how the E12 works with the Sony MDR-1R and Audio Technica ATH-AD900x the answer is obvious


----------



## Techno Kid

Now how has both the E12 and the C&C BH because I want to know just how much better is the C&C BH over the E12.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





gavinfabl said:


> If anyone is wondering how the E12 works with the Sony MDR-1R and Audio Technica ATH-AD900x the answer is obvious


 
   
  Hmmm.
  One eye closed, the other eye open!
   
  They put you half to sleep?
  Or the E12 makes one eyelid swell up so you can't see out of it?
  Or the headphones make you wink?
   
  OK, I give up. Tell me!


----------



## gavinfabl

chris j said:


> Hmmm.
> One eye closed, the other eye open!
> 
> They put you half to sleep?
> ...




Both cans have only had 6 hours burn in. The Sony's have changed the most so far. But here's my literal first impression with the E12. 

Audio Technica ath-ad900x - stunning out of the box with the E12. Blows cobwebs out of the music. Depth. Rhythm. Attack and staging. Never heard anything so good. 

Sony MDR-1R - the E12 keeps the neutrality of the Sony's. Adds tremendous impact, weight, clarity and imaging. I plugged the Sony's into my iPhone 5 and they sounded flat in comparison. Even though the Sony's are not bass heavy I'm toying between bass off of on sometimes


----------



## Bill-P

Quote: 





techno kid said:


> Now how has both the E12 and the C&C BH because I want to know just how much better is the C&C BH over the E12.


 
   
  It's the other way around. E12 is significantly better than BH.
   
  Edit: not to advertise, but... here's my review of the E12 vs BH in case you're interested in some readings:
Review: Fiio E12 (comparison to C&C BH + JDS Labs O2 + JDS Labs C421)


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





gavinfabl said:


> Both cans have only had 6 hours burn in. The Sony's have changed the most so far. But here's my literal first impression with the E12.
> 
> Audio Technica ath-ad900x - stunning out of the box with the E12. Blows cobwebs out of the music. Depth. Rhythm. Attack and staging. Never heard anything so good.
> 
> Sony MDR-1R - the E12 keeps the neutrality of the Sony's. Adds tremendous impact, weight, clarity and imaging. I plugged the Sony's into my iPhone 5 and they sounded flat in comparison. Even though the Sony's are not bass heavy I'm toying between bass off of on sometimes


 
   
  Nice!
  Very nice!
  Interesting comments about the iPhone 5!


----------



## waynes world

Quote: 





> Audio Technica ath-ad900x - stunning out of the box with the E12. Blows cobwebs out of the music. Depth. Rhythm. Attack and staging. Never heard anything so good.


 
   

 Sweet combo huh! I am very grateful that dsnuts convinced me to get the ad900x, and that pngwn convinced me to get the e12 to pair up with them


----------



## Evshrug

chris j said:


> Ohhhhhhhhh.
> I should have given a more detailed answer.
> 
> Assuming you are not changing headphones:
> ...




My philosophy on changing gain: keep on the lowest gain setting unless my headphones are too quiet at max volume, if that is the case turn down the volume first (to protect hearing), then switch up the gain, then turn up the volume to listening level. Since the Q701s are at my listening volume before the volume is turned up halfway, I haven't even tried listening to music on high gain. I do hope that a local head-fi'er will make an audition-swap with me and his DT880s, which are the 250 ohm version. I think he's more interested in hearing/using the E12 though


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> My philosophy on changing gain: keep on the lowest gain setting unless my headphones are too quiet at max volume, if that is the case turn down the volume first (to protect hearing), then switch up the gain, then turn up the volume to listening level. Since the Q701s are at my listening volume before the volume is turned up halfway, I haven't even tried listening to music on high gain. I do hope that a local head-fi'er will make an audition-swap with me and his DT880s, which are the 250 ohm version. I think he's more interested in hearing/using the E12 though


 
   
  Hey!
  That's what I do!
  Quit stealing my ideas! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Seriously, nicely put. Thanks for the post.
  Most of my head amps are set to minimum gain too.


----------



## Evshrug

Chris J,
I noticed you take off your aluminum/tin hat when you go to the grocery store. On balance, I would say that's not a bad choice because the potatoes are particularly frightened by tin foil.


----------



## Chris J

evshrug said:


> Chris J,
> I noticed you take off your aluminum/tin hat when you go to the grocery store. On balance, I would say that's not a bad choice because the potatoes are particularly frightened by tin foil.




If I didn't know you better I would think you were laughing at me!
I was thinking about posting my test results which 100% prove that an aluminum foil hat gives 90 dB of attentuation from alien radio wave transmissions but the dog ate my homework.
I also have test data proving that 60-70 dB of attentuation is sufficient.


----------



## caracara08

selling my e12 if anyone is interested!


----------



## Evshrug

Caracara08,
Probably best to post that in the For Sale forum.

Chris J,
I never knew which aliens to account for, but then again, I am no calculus wiz and maybe you know how to account for that. I failed my college Calculus course in fact, true story, first class I ever "hit a wall" and couldn't keep up, even though I had an A in physics. I guess I could've ended up as "that" kind of engineer, but instead I changed my studies to the field of Graphic Design, so I still get to make stuff. I wouldn't mock you because I imagine we have quite a few similarities, and to mock something about you would also be to mock something about myself.

I'm nervous right now. I have my first work shift in a new position tomorrow in 5 and a half hours from now, and I'll be working for 12 hours straight tomorrow minus 30 minutes to drive from my new job to the old job I'm in the process of quitting. I'm having trouble sleeping, so I think I'll play with my E12 quietly for 15 mins... wish me luck & endurance.


----------



## gimbertt

I'm not selling mine.


----------



## Chris J

evshrug said:


> Caracara08,
> Probably best to post that in the For Sale forum.
> 
> Chris J,
> ...




Good luck & endurance!
Always nerve racking and fraying starting a new job.

Aliens to avoid:
The ones from "Alien" & "Aliens" & "Prometheus"
the bad robots from "Transformers"
Romulans
that guy in the next Star Trek, seems to have anger management issues! LOL!:mad:

Aliens to fraternize with:
the ones from "ET" and 
the good robots from "Transformers", Optimus Prime and his crew
Klingons, not a bad sort once you get to know them! LOL


----------



## Evshrug

Ended up sleeping just two hours (anxious, didn't even listen to music), but I was OK Friday because I was wired. Couldn't even sleep right away when I got home. However, despite making sure my alarm was set with a good time balance to get me to work early today, I slept through an hour of my alarm going off and woke up ten mins after my shift started this morning at 7. I stayed a bit late, but I was feeling behind all day. I hate making that impression, I haven't been late for anything in 6 months.

So _clearly_, what I have to do tonight is go to bed early and listen to music to calm down, so that tomorrow goes smoothly, and my cheerful attitude brightens the spirit of all my coworkers and customers so things get done quicker and with satisfaction. Also, I got paid yesterday, so we'll see what trouble I Et into


----------



## BenF

When will it be available for sale worldwide?


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





benf said:


> When will it be available for sale worldwide?


 
  Late March probably
   
  FiiO just updated their FB that they are about to begin Mass Production.
   
  They are debating if not has already enacted a change that will probably go into effect after the E12. The change will be that they will release products in China first to get feedback and allow for easy changes and RMA process. 
   
  Their official quotes taken from FB, anything above is just my interpretation of it.:
   
   
  Quote:3/8/2013 





> News about Mont Blanc, we will start the mass production from next Monday, it means it will launch market soon.


 
   
   
  Quote: 3/8/2013 





> About the ETA of our new products, since FiiO are more and more popular in China, we now will like to release our new products in China first, it will be more easy to us to collect the feedback from end users and easy to get the RMA to see what happen, hope our fans can understand us. sometimes we have to get the RMA so we can find out what happened so we can improve it asap.


----------



## Hutnicks

Quote: 





kt66 said:


> I don't want or need EQ, I want a flat sound that accurately represents the recording and mastering,
> 
> Heard of Quads Peter Walker? Probably the UK greatest ever amp designer, he said the perfect amp is a " wire with a Volume control"
> 
> The amp should add no sound character to the sound at all, it should just amplify the source, as purely as possible.


 

 He He. I had a pair of 405-2's converted to monoblocks and signed by Peter himself. I sure wish I'd kept them.


----------



## ravager

evshrug said:


> Caracara08,
> Probably best to post that in the For Sale forum.
> 
> Chris J,
> ...




There are a lot of people that just don't "get" calculus. It really helps if you can think of physical examples. My first wall in mathematics was vector spaces. That is also our first foray into the abstract. But the reason I had so much trouble with VS in linear algebra, was exactly why I was able to do calculus. I tried to picture what a vector space was, and it just doesn't work when it is a dimension higher than 3.... Whenever I talk to people with higher mathematics background, I want to know how they first learned vector spaces. ChrisJ, how much math did you have to endure to get that power engineering degree? Linear and DifEq? I had an applied analysis course that I hated.

Congrats evshrug. I hope you enjoy that new position. : )


----------



## waynes world

I really wasn't expecting to like the E12 as much as I do. But it is making all of my already good headphones sound that much better.
   
  For instance, I dug out my "giant killer" KSC75's (my first "good" headphones) and hooked them up to the E12, and I am quite blown away by how beautiful they sound.


----------



## jiggahwhat

I didn't share that positive experience. The E12 made my HE-400s sound brighter than they already are (to the point of fatigue) and didn't do much to improve the sound quality beyond increasing the volume. I eventually sold it in order to pursue a desktop amplifier.


----------



## waynes world

Quote: 





jiggahwhat said:


> I didn't share that positive experience. The E12 made my HE-400s sound brighter than they already are (to the point of fatigue) and didn't do much to improve the sound quality beyond increasing the volume. I eventually sold it in order to pursue a desktop amplifier.


 
   
  Huh! That really surprises me that they would make them sound _brighter_, as that hasn't been my experience with the E12 and any of my headphones (which is good, because I wouldn't want them getting brighter). Sorry to hear that the E12 didn't work out for you.


----------



## Parall3l

Quote: 





jiggahwhat said:


> I didn't share that positive experience. The E12 made my HE-400s sound brighter than they already are (to the point of fatigue) and didn't do much to improve the sound quality beyond increasing the volume. I eventually sold it in order to pursue a desktop amplifier.


 
  Which version of the HE400 is this? There was a strong magnet version with more treble than the others


----------



## jiggahwhat

It's Revision 2, which isn't the defective version. I tried to like it, but it was clear the pairing didn't work when I liked the sound better both straight out of the DAC and then even straight out of my laptop.


----------



## Chris J

ravager said:


> There are a lot of people that just don't "get" calculus. It really helps if you can think of physical examples. My first wall in mathematics was vector spaces. That is also our first foray into the abstract. But the reason I had so much trouble with VS in linear algebra, was exactly why I was able to do calculus. I tried to picture what a vector space was, and it just doesn't work when it is a dimension higher than 3.... Whenever I talk to people with higher mathematics background, I want to know how they first learned vector spaces. ChrisJ, how much math did you have to endure to get that power engineering degree? Linear and DifEq? I had an applied analysis course that I hated.
> 
> Congrats evshrug. I hope you enjoy that new position. : )




Hey, congrats Evshrug!

In the first 2 years of Engineering I took 7 math courses:
1 statistics course
1 Matrix Algebra
1 Complex Variables
4 Calculus courses with Differential and Partial Differential Equations, multi-variable Integration and a bunch of other stuff that I have forgotten.
Statistics is always useful.


----------



## Evshrug

Off-topic advice, then we ought to return to the amp here 

Thanks to all for the well wishes. I'd had 4.5 months of only a few scattered freelance Graphic Design projects and volunteering at my local radio station before this, so I had A LOT of time for Head-Fi  Suddenly I'm working three jobs at once, though I put in my two-weeks with Wendy's (I was doing a good job so they actually let me work the 2 weeks) and as of Thursday I'll just be a shift manager at our local Bruegger's Bagels and working part-time as a graphic designer for a small advertising company here. It's not a bad start, but I'm also talking with people at UPMC about helping with their mobile strategies department. It's good to be busy, I didn't realize how much I missed the level of activity I had during college (graduated December 2011, Seton Hill University).

I think part of the problem with calculus was I learn best by reading and practice, but the professor (though very smart) was the kind of guy that taught talking with his back to the class while constantly writing on the chalkboard. My note-taking skills weren't highly refined yet, so I copied what he wrote on the board which made sense (ish) during class, but I'd get back to my dorm for homework and my notes looked like gibberish, and my textbook didn't help because the examples would skip steps during the solving process. I couldn't figure out the process to follow to solve any of the practice examples, which was depressing. I started seeing a tutor twice a week (which was helping, but only at 2/5ths the pace of the class) and asked the prof for help, but he said "I've seen your type before, you're not going to get it, so just drop the course and concentrate on your other studies." 

I took his advice but was lost for a while, I dropped out of that university in Ohio that semester and came back home, working as a dishwasher and taking community college courses to find a new path of studies. If someone reading these words is about to go to college but isn't sure of their major, I HIGHLY recommend starting at community college and exploring different courses first before getting over your head and blowing your academic scholarships. I found quite a few professors that really impressed me and re-invented myself. Once you've picked a major, I would then recommend choosing a college/university with good alumni and business networking connections, so that you can use the university resources to have a job lined up right after you graduate.




jiggahwhat said:


> I didn't share that positive experience. The E12 made my HE-400s sound brighter than they already are (to the point of fatigue) and didn't do much to improve the sound quality beyond increasing the volume. I eventually sold it in order to pursue a desktop amplifier.




Was there just two or three versions of the HE-400? I had borrowed Mad Lust Envy's very recent edition of the HE-400, the difference between straight from my iPod and through E12 was distinct, mostly from much more solid bass and sub-bass extension although treble may have been more extended as well. The combo sounded amazing with some of my favorite Massive Attack tracks, but a Janis Joplin track was overpowered by the He-400's V-shaped sound signature. I kept the Mont Blanc, but not the HE-400's


----------



## Hutnicks

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Off-topic advice, then we ought to return to the amp here
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I wonder what setting the gain switch was on.


----------



## ukaudiophile

Any idea of UK shipping dates yet?


----------



## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





ukaudiophile said:


> Any idea of UK shipping dates yet?


 
   
  just start assemble the E12, the shipping date maybe the end of this month to UK.


----------



## Craigster75

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> just start assemble the E12, the shipping date maybe the end of this month to UK.


 
  Will all new units shipped be the enhanced bass boost units?  Do they have a designation so that we know when ordering we would be receiving these?


----------



## RoMee

Quote: 





craigster75 said:


> Will all new units shipped be the enhanced bass boost units?  Do they have a designation so that we know when ordering we would be receiving these?


 
  I would like to know this as well, I just traded away my no bass version and would love to see how the new one sounds like.


----------



## LeDave

Does anyone know if the e12 will work with the iPad4/iPhone5 via Lighting to 30 pin adapter>L9 LOD>Headphones?


----------



## Bill-P

Quote: 





ledave said:


> Does anyone know if the e12 will work with the iPad4/iPhone5 via Lighting to 30 pin adapter>L9 LOD>Headphones?


 
   
  Yep, it will work.
   
  But I'd say... a 3.5mm cable works just as well.


----------



## miceblue

Quote: 





bill-p said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  3.5 mm interconnect cables won't bypass the iPhone's internal amp, so with that connection you would be double amping the audio signal.


----------



## Bill-P

Quote: 





miceblue said:


> 3.5 mm interconnect cables won't bypass the iPhone's internal amp, so with that connection you would be double amping the audio signal.


 
   
  Yep. But not all double-amping is bad. The iPod Touch 4 and iPhone 5 have been measured to have a relatively flat frequency response, so there is no undue coloration in the amp section (except for extreme impedance mismatch cases). You most likely won't run into impedance mismatch with double amping when the second amp (that's connected to the headphone) is significantly better than the first (the one that's inside the device) because the input impedance of the second amp is significantly larger (the damping factor would be so large that it's way off the point of audible distortion).
   
  All that's left is to consider whether the second amp has enough power (voltage or current) to deliver the listening level coming from the first amp. It's basically like you're enabling the gain switch on the E12. Nothing more.
   
  That's as far as I know. Of course, I'd love to know if you have research data that points to the opposite effect (that double-amping is actually bad in all cases).


----------



## miceblue

Quote: 





bill-p said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  True, the frequency response is fairly flat, but the iPhone's amp still has distortion, which does add some sort of colouration (frequency response isn't the whole story).
  With your logic, are you saying that everyone who has a FiiO L3 or L9, or similar LOD connectors just wasted their money on a cable that has doesn't do anything beneficial?
   
  Quote: 





uncle erik said:


> You could overload the second amp. They're designed to accept only a certain amount of input from a source - not the amount of power that comes from another amp. At best, you'll increase distortion. At worst, you could cook off something inside the second amp.


----------



## Bill-P

Quote: 





miceblue said:


> True, the frequency response is fairly flat, but the iPhone's amp still has distortion, which does add some sort of colouration (frequency response isn't the whole story).
> With your logic, are you saying that everyone who has a FiiO L3 or L9, or similar LOD connectors just wasted their money on a cable that has doesn't do anything beneficial?


 
   
  If you'd read Uncle Erik's response again, he basically just said what I said... in a different way: you could still overload the second amp. Or in other word, if the second amp is not able to cope with the level of the first amp, then it could still distort. But if the second amp can cope with the first amp's level, then it should be fine. And... we're talking about an iPhone here. iPhone doesn't have the most powerful amp section, so it most likely won't be able to deliver that much power. If in doubt, you can just use the volume control to drop the volume on the iPhone.
   
  You'd be right, though, if we were talking about double-amping with something like, say... an O2 as the first amp and the E12 as the second amp, and the O2's volume pot was pushed to max on high gain. I admit double-amping is bad in some cases, but it's not bad in all cases.
   
  And no, I'm not saying that they wasted their money. A direct line-out (LOD stands for Line-Out Dock in case you haven't realized) is still better most of the time, as it's less likely to overload the second amp, and you don't have to fiddle with the volume control on the device.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





bill-p said:


> Yep. But not all double-amping is bad. The iPod Touch 4 and iPhone 5 have been measured to have a relatively flat frequency response, so there is no undue coloration in the amp section (except for extreme impedance mismatch cases). You most likely won't run into impedance mismatch with double amping when the second amp (that's connected to the headphone) is significantly better than the first (the one that's inside the device) because the input impedance of the second amp is significantly larger (the damping factor would be so large that it's way off the point of audible distortion).
> 
> All that's left is to consider whether the second amp has enough power (voltage or current) to deliver the listening level coming from the first amp. It's basically like you're enabling the gain switch on the E12. Nothing more.
> 
> That's as far as I know. Of course, I'd love to know if you have research data that points to the opposite effect (that double-amping is actually bad in all cases).


 
   
  Double amping:
  I think the real answer is: it depends.
  I like the idea of NOT having two volume controls to play with.
  It's impossible to come up with definitive answer unless you have some stats on the first headphone amp and the second headphone amp, in the case of an iPod or iPhone was is the line out like compared to the headphone jack?
  What's in the lightning cable?   I've heard the Lightning cable has a DAC in it.  Does anyone know?


----------



## Bill-P

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Double amping:
> I think the real answer is: it depends.
> It's impossible to come up with definitive answer unless you have some stats on the first headphone amp and the second headphone amp, in the case of an iPod or iPhone was is the line out like compared to the headphone jack?
> What's in the lightning cable?   I've heard the Lightning cable has a DAC in it.  Does anyone know?


 
   
  Some have provided measurements, and it seems the iPhone or iPod clips out at around 1V output through the headphone jack. I don't think that's enough voltage to really cause the Fiio E12 to clip.
  http://www.kenrockwell.com/apple/iphone-5/audio-quality.htm
   
  And did you mean the lightning to 30 pin dock adapter? I'm sure that one comes with a Wolfson DAC built in, while the iPhone has a Cirrus Logic DAC.


----------



## miceblue

Quote: 





bill-p said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Hm, okay I'll trust what you're saying. I do notice a difference in sound between the double-amping and single amping though, particularly with the soundstage and instrument separation.


----------



## Bill-P

Quote: 





miceblue said:


> Hm, okay I'll trust what you're saying. I do notice a difference in sound between the double-amping and single amping though, particularly with the soundstage and instrument separation.


 
   
  Yeah. I don't doubt that.
   
  On the iPod Touch 4 and iPhone 5, line-out actually means using a completely different DAC, so... it's very likely (I'd say 100%) to sound different.
   
  On older devices, line-out most likely goes through a different circuit that bypasses the amp, so minor differences in the signal path may account for what you are hearing (more soundstage, better instrument separation).
   
  It also helps that you have a JDS Labs C5. I know from experience that the C421 is a very good and clean amp, and the C5 can only be better.


----------



## LeDave

Thanks for the help you guys. I am comtemplating whether I should wait for the release of the e12 or buy the e11 right away and upgrade later on down the road. The price of this e12 is estimated to be 130 right? That's over twice the e11. So these are the items I am going to get and maybe get it or wait for the e12. Ignore the name on there, that's my sister's name.
Permalink: http://amzn.com/w/1D1OTUO5RN1I2


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





ledave said:


> Thanks for the help you guys. I am comtemplating whether I should wait for the release of the e12 or buy the e11 right away and upgrade later on down the road. The price of this e12 is estimated to be 130 right? That's over twice the e11. So these are the items I am going to get and maybe get it or wait for the e12. Ignore the name on there, that's my sister's name.
> Permalink: http://amzn.com/w/1D1OTUO5RN1I2


 
  The E12 is sold out now in the country(U.S), but yes, $130 with free shipping though.


----------



## LeDave

bowei006 said:


> The E12 is sold out now in the country(U.S), but yes, $130 with free shipping though.




Ok thanks, No wonder why I can't find it anywhere via Google. It must be a pretty good product for it to sell out. Do you know when it will be back in stock? And if maybe, stable in terms of supply and demand? Thanks, Dave.


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





ledave said:


> Ok thanks, No wonder why I can't find it anywhere via Google. It must be a pretty good product for it to sell out. Do you know when it will be back in stock? And if maybe, stable in terms of supply and demand? Thanks, Dave.


 
  I think Micca store was the only one to receive stock during early 2013 so out of stock is easy.
   
  Late March to early April IT SEEMS. 
   
  FiiO just announced that they are beginning assembly of E12's for massive world wide release.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





bill-p said:


> Some have provided measurements, and it seems the iPhone or iPod clips out at around 1V output through the headphone jack. I don't think that's enough voltage to really cause the Fiio E12 to clip.
> http://www.kenrockwell.com/apple/iphone-5/audio-quality.htm
> 
> And did you mean the lightning to 30 pin dock adapter? I'm sure that one comes with a Wolfson DAC built in, while the iPhone has a Cirrus Logic DAC.


 
   
  Oh no!
  Not the dreaded Ken Rockwell!
  I agree, 1 volt isn't much, just set the iPod volume to full and control the volume with the E12 volume control (for example).
  If 1 Volt can clip the input of any headphone amp then it's junk.
   
  I have no idea what differentiates any Lightning cable from any other Lightning cable...................
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  I'm a "not know it all" I guess.


----------



## Bill-P

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Oh no!
> Not the dreaded Ken Rockwell!
> I agree, 1 volt isn't much, just set the iPod volume to full and control the volume with the E12 volume control (for example).
> If 1 Volt can clip the input of any headphone amp then it's junk.
> ...


 
   
  Oh yes, it's KR!
   
  To be honest, I know from the camera side that Mr. Rockwell isn't the most reliable subjective source ever, but his measurements are pretty okay, so I check back there occasionally.
   
  Anyway, yeah, 1V isn't a lot. I think Apple stuck with the standard of "line-out" being max 1V for all of their iDevices... as it seems the output from the LOD cable is also equally loud (I just checked on the iPhone 4).
   
  Funny thing is... I'm sure "line-out" on their MacBook is more than 1V, as headphone output on my MacBook is noticeably louder than the iPhone.
   
  And I don't think you need to bother with the Lightning cable IMO. It's just another one of their marketing strategies... It doesn't transfer data "lightning faster", nor does it do anything that's drastically different from the old 30-pin connector after all. In fact, I would have preferred the 30-pin connector... because it was easier to find the bigger port on a big slab of aluminum... (iPad)


----------



## Evshrug

hutnicks said:


> [quotes my experience using E12 with HE-400]
> I wonder what setting the gain switch was on.



Low gain, but most often with the bass boost on (bass was stronger above the boost's range of effect too vs iPod). Crossfeed off, if you're curious about that too.


----------



## Hutnicks

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Low gain, but most often with the bass boost on (bass was stronger above the boost's range of effect too vs iPod). Crossfeed off, if you're curious about that too.


 

 Sure am. Curious about everything. I have the e11 and like everything (including that gain switch, comes in very handy) and am looking to see if the 12 is worth the upgrade. The most annoying feature of the 11 is no playback while charging. The extra money may be worth it for that alone.
   
  Don't suppose the 11 fetches very much on the used market.


----------



## jiggahwhat

I've seen several E12s go for as low as 100 in the Selling forums. I sold mine for 105.


----------



## Evshrug

jiggahwhat said:


> I've seen several E12s go for as low as 100 in the Selling forums. I sold mine for 105.



He asked about the resell value of the E11.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





bill-p said:


> Oh yes, it's KR!
> 
> To be honest, I know from the camera side that Mr. Rockwell isn't the most reliable subjective source ever, but his measurements are pretty okay, so I check back there occasionally.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Hmmmm, makes me happy I have an older iPod!
  Anyway,  use a digital dock which I plug into a DAC.
  I've never been a big fan of the iPod headphone jack's sound.


----------



## KimChee

I dunno if this has been mentioned or not, but I asked on the Fiio facebook page if the mass produced E12 was going to have more bass boost than the small batch E12, and they said yes.  I'm very interested in the mass release E12


----------



## pngwn

I thought the revised bass boost was just shifted a bit higher than the first version, like a +6db boost to 70hz instead of 50hz or something, not increased and modified in quantity? Unless I missed a post from James a few pages ago?


----------



## jiminy

Does anyone know how many e12s went out in the first batch. We must be getting to the point where 25% have been resold (you are a fickle lot)
   
  ps I bought mine second hand so I could specifically get the original version
   
  I think it was in this thread that someone mentioned using Velcro to attach it to your iPod. Some one mentioned it was industrial strength and thin. Can whoever it was define tell me how thin? as 2 pieces of the 3M stuff I have comes to 5mm and I'm wondering if there is something more suitable?


----------



## waynes world

Quote: 





pngwn said:


> I thought the revised bass boost was just shifted a bit higher than the first version, like a +6db boost to 70hz instead of 50hz or something, not increased and modified in quantity? Unless I missed a post from James a few pages ago?


 
   
  James, is the revised bass boost the same as what you originally posted here?


----------



## waynes world

Quote:  





> I think it was in this thread that someone mentioned using Velcro to attach it to your iPod. Some one mentioned it was industrial strength and thin. Can whoever it was define tell me how thin? as 2 pieces of the 3M stuff I have comes to 5mm and I'm wondering if there is something more suitable?


 
   
  Fwiw, I think that I ended up getting the same 3M dual lock that you have, which probably isn't the "low profile" stuff.


----------



## jiminy

I've done a little research, thanks.
  So basically the choice is between clear 1.7 mm duel lock with a life cycle of between 50 and 100 cycles.  Or the black thats about 5mm and 1000 cycles.
  and for me the thick stuff is 100% cheaper.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





hutnicks said:


> Sure am. Curious about everything. I have the e11 and like everything (including that gain switch, comes in very handy) and am looking to see if the 12 is worth the upgrade. The most annoying feature of the 11 is no playback while charging. The extra money may be worth it for that alone.
> 
> Don't suppose the 11 fetches very much on the used market.


 
   
  If you sell your E11 I'm interested.
  I live around the corner from Toronto and just down the street from 3 (yes 3!) Tim Hortons!


----------



## Hutnicks

Quote: 





chris j said:


> If you sell your E11 I'm interested.
> I live around the corner from Toronto and just down the street from 3 (yes 3!) Tim Hortons!


 
  I'll keep that in mind as soon as the E12 Becomes available again. Like hens teeth right now.
 I didn't know ParaDice was anywhere near Toronto 3 Tims (+ 1 in a gas station) and 2, and counting Starbucks.


----------



## Evshrug

Is Tim Hortons a grocery store or doughnut shop?
And of course Head-Fi is a fickle lot, I assume several of the first buyers were just curious to hear the Mont Blanc and didn't actually need it. Me, I'm stubborn, lol. I do have a desktop amp that I love, but I like having a capable portable amp too, and I know I'll just kick myself later if I sold mine and later wanted to find the sub-bass boost version and have a good portable again for a good price. A few competitors have shown up in the past few months, but the Mont Blanc is still a pretty unique package. I might've considered an O2 or JDS Labs C5, but those cost more, I'm happy with what I have, and I have other things I wanna spend money on


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Is Tim Hortons a grocery store or doughnut shop?
> And of course Head-Fi is a fickle lot, I assume several of the first buyers were just curious to hear the Mont Blanc and didn't actually need it. Me, I'm stubborn, lol. I do have a desktop amp that I love, but I like having a capable portable amp too, and I know I'll just kick myself later if I sold mine and later wanted to find the sub-bass boost version and have a good portable again for a good price. A few competitors have shown up in the past few months, but the Mont Blanc is still a pretty unique package. I might've considered an O2 or JDS Labs C5, but those cost more, I'm happy with what I have, and I have other things I wanna spend money on


 
  I believe it is the donut Shops.


----------



## Hutnicks

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Is Tim Hortons a grocery store or doughnut shop?
> And of course Head-Fi is a fickle lot, I assume several of the first buyers were just curious to hear the Mont Blanc and didn't actually need it. Me, I'm stubborn, lol. I do have a desktop amp that I love, but I like having a capable portable amp too, and I know I'll just kick myself later if I sold mine and later wanted to find the sub-bass boost version and have a good portable again for a good price. A few competitors have shown up in the past few months, but the Mont Blanc is still a pretty unique package. I might've considered an O2 or JDS Labs C5, but those cost more, I'm happy with what I have, and I have other things I wanna spend money on


 

 Tim's is a coffee shop. Pretty much a staple among Canadians. I have an 02 in the build stage, waiting while I complete a Pass headphone amp, and consider The Wire, if the PCB's and kits become available over at DIYAudio. I'm in no hurry on the 02 as it is not really portable and I have an old Rega Ear on the desktop which works with just about every headphone I've thrown at it . The E11 was initially bought to pair with the Samsung Galaxy S, but it gets more use than I had thought as it is just way to convenient to carry around everywhere including room to room in the house. for portability and sound quality it is really hard to beat.*BUT* the no use while charging really grinds on me. If the Mont Blanc is anywhere as good sound wise, I will be getting hold of one, one way or another.


----------



## ravager

hutnicks said:


> Tim's is a coffee shop. Pretty much a staple among Canadians. I have an 02 in the build stage, waiting while I complete a Pass headphone amp, and consider The Wire, if the PCB's and kits become available over at DIYAudio. I'm in no hurry on the 02 as it is not really portable and I have an old Rega Ear on the desktop which works with just about every headphone I've thrown at it . The E11 was initially bought to pair with the Samsung Galaxy S, but it gets more use than I had thought as it is just way to convenient to carry around everywhere including room to room in the house. for portability and sound quality it is really hard to beat.*BUT* the no use while charging really grinds on me. If the Mont Blanc is anywhere as good sound wise, I will be getting hold of one, one way or another.




I might get yelled at for this, but you should really check out the C&C BH amp, and corresponding thread. There are plenty of us old E11 users that have made the switch. Battery life, and no play during charge are most common reasons for switching. One member has gotten 85 hours after a charge. That is amazing.


----------



## pngwn

The BH is a great amp for the price ($100) and does have ungodly battery time. I have a BH and E12 and only prefer the E12 because of the more textured bass boost. The BH is a good alternative that is a little more neutral and is great at detail retrieval.


----------



## Hutnicks

Quote: 





ravager said:


> I might get yelled at for this, but you should really check out the C&C BH amp, and corresponding thread. There are plenty of us old E11 users that have made the switch. Battery life, and no play during charge are most common reasons for switching. One member has gotten 85 hours after a charge. That is amazing.


 

 They censure product comparison here??
   
  That is a good call. I'll have to look a little deeper into that. Thanks.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





hutnicks said:


> They censure product comparison here??
> 
> That is a good call. I'll have to look a little deeper into that. Thanks.


 
   
  Try going to the Sound Science Forum!
  The Objective Crusaders censure all Subjective thinking.
  Just like a scene out of the Ridley Scott film "Kingdom Of Heaven".
  The Kingdom Of Heaven had a bunch of guys screaming "God Wills It!"
  The Sci Forum has a bunch of guys screaming "Science Wills It!"


----------



## Hutnicks

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Try going to the Sound Science Forum!
> The Objective Crusaders censure all Subjective thinking.
> Just like a scene out of the Ridley Scott film "Kingdom Of Heaven".
> The Kingdom Of Heaven had a bunch of guys screaming "God Wills It!"
> The Sci Forum has a bunch of guys screaming "Science Wills It!"


 
   
  And here I thought objectivism died with Ayn Rand.  There's merit to both arguments, the problem with objectiveists is they run into a road block when it comes to the psycho acoustic model as science has not yet explained that sufficiently well to determine why we have a preference to one sound or another.


----------



## JamesFiiO

YES





waynes world said:


> James, is the revised bass boost the same as what you originally posted here?


----------



## JamesFiiO

pngwn said:


> The BH is a great amp for the price ($100) and does have ungodly battery time. I have a BH and E12 and only prefer the E12 because of the more textured bass boost. The BH is a good alternative that is a little more neutral and is great at detail retrieval.




you will find the huge difference when you try to drive a HD650 or 880 or AKG701.


----------



## JamesFiiO

jiminy said:


> Does anyone know how many e12s went out in the first batch. We must be getting to the point where 25% have been resold (you are a fickle lot)
> 
> ps I bought mine second hand so I could specifically get the original version
> 
> I think it was in this thread that someone mentioned using Velcro to attach it to your iPod. Some one mentioned it was industrial strength and thin. Can whoever it was define tell me how thin? as 2 pieces of the 3M stuff I have comes to 5mm and I'm wondering if there is something more suitable?




the total is about 300 PCS


----------



## Evshrug

Others can compare the E11 and E12 for you better than I can, but the E12 definitely is a great SS amp. Built with higher-quality components than the E11, I definitely feel like the E12 competes well as a portable at it's price point.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





hutnicks said:


> And here I thought objectivism died with Ayn Rand.  There's merit to both arguments, the problem with objectiveists is they run into a road block when it comes to the psycho acoustic model as science has not yet explained that sufficiently well to determine why we have a preference to one sound or another.


 
   
  No, it's alive and well on the Science Fiction Forum! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  Their basic tenet seems to be you should only strive for a neutral sound and if it wasn't measured, it doesn't exist.


----------



## Evshrug

But... I love science fiction!


----------



## KamijoIsMyHero

I thought an amp is solid state if only it never used an opamp, did this change or has it always been so?

I'm a science guy myself but that science section is too measurement-biased even for me




evshrug said:


> Others can compare the E11 and E12 for you better than I can, but the E12 definitely is a great SS amp. Built with higher-quality components than the E11, I definitely feel like the E12 competes well as a portable at it's price point.


----------



## bowei006

Usually its tube amps and everything else as SS. Be it op amp based or discrete. But of course. Hybrids an many exceptions blah.


----------



## KamijoIsMyHero

Ahh I see, I think "discrete" was the key word I'm missing cuz looking at the circuits for burson and schiit is very cool


----------



## bowei006

kamijoismyhero said:


> Ahh I see, I think "discrete" was the key word I'm missing cuz looking at the circuits for burson and schiit is very cool


There are pros and cons for going discrete or in using op amps. Depends on the company bit discrete units will generally cost more in rd and price and has to be sold en mass successfully. They can get better sound if the condition on price is passed. But then there are some impedence, noise, and distortion elements that if not dealt with correctly, can lead to a bad unit and thus high r and d.

Op amps avoidthat problem.

This is based on my own interp. and findings and he who shall not be named.

Correct me otherwise please. Good to learn


----------



## Hutnicks

Quote: 





chris j said:


> No, it's alive and well on the Science Fiction Forum!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I am big on neutral sound myself, not neutered though. And really what is neutral. How do you measure it? Take a signal directly off the source and measure it again aftter the speaker? The source itself alters the sound so you wind up in a heisenberg loop of empirical data. It's much like the digital vs analog wars. As for "hearing what was intended by the recording artist" I would strongly recommend anyone with any interest in the topic read John Culshaws Ring Resounding to see what is actually intended by the producers. And what he envisioned in 1963 as the future of home audio. It sure is NOT what we have been hyped by the "audiophile" community who seem to exist to support obscure artists making albums solely for the purpose of showing off equipment. Simply put there are two camps the folks who exist to buy stuff and the folks who exist to listen to music. I'm all for measurement, but it never tells me what I am actually hearing.
   
  Thus endeth the rant.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> There are pros and cons for going discrete or in using op amps. Depends on the company bit discrete units will generally cost more in rd and price and has to be sold en mass successfully. They can get better sound if the condition on price is passed. But then there are some impedence, noise, and distortion elements that if not dealt with correctly, can lead to a bad unit and thus high r and d.
> 
> Op amps avoidthat problem.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Quote: 





kamijoismyhero said:


> I thought an amp is solid state if only it never used an opamp, did this change or has it always been so?
> 
> I'm a science guy myself but that science section is too measurement-biased even for me


 
   
  I hear ya talkin' science guy.
  Science is not a tool of inflexible dictatorship!
   
  Solid State is a term used to refer to transistor amplifiers..........amplifiers that use transistors.
  So a tube amp is not a Solid State amp.
   
  An example of a Solid State amp would be an amplifier that uses Op Amps.
  Virtually all Modern Op Amps are built as Integrated Circuits.........meaning a set of transistors on a piece of silicon........similar to a Microprocessor.
  So Op Amps are Solid State.
  Solid state also refers to an amplifier built with discrete transistors. 
  BTW you can have impedance, noise and distortion issues if you mis-apply Op Amps or choose the wrong Op Amp for the application.
  It depends............
   
  Op Amps are so cheap that it is very difficult to justify building a pre-amp or headphone amp with only discrete transistors.
  Of course if you need a lot of power, like a speaker amp, then discrete transistors start looking pretty good.
   
  BTW, a few exceptions here:
  In the 40's and 50's you could buy vacuum tube Op Amps.
  As B 006 pointed out, when you use tubes *and* transistors the circuit is called a Hybrid circuit.


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





chris j said:


> BTW you can have impedance, noise and distortion issues if you mis-apply Op Amps or choose the wrong Op Amp for the application.
> It depends............
> 
> Op Amps are so cheap that it is very difficult to justify building a pre-amp or headphone amp with only discrete transistors.
> ...


 
  Yeah, it depends. But from my readings. It happens much easier with discrete ones as they require actual research and development and all those other good stuff and thus you need a bit more money to make a discrete amp as it costs money to weed out those problems. Op amps also can have those but not as 'easy'.
   
  Yep, price price price price. Everything about money.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> Yeah, it depends. But from my readings. It happens much easier with discrete ones as they require actual research and development and all those other good stuff and thus you need a bit more money to make a discrete amp as it costs money to weed out those problems. Op amps also can have those but not as 'easy'.
> 
> Yep, price price price price. Everything about money.


 
   
   
  Confused.......................I guess you mean it's easier to screw up a discrete circuit?  LOL!
  You need more R&D time to build a good circuit with discrete transistors?
   
  If, yes, I agree!  
   
  BTW, I certainly don't hate discrete transistor circuits! Bryston builds a great discrete transistor headphone amp.
  As you point out............big $$$. You could buy a few E12s for that much money.  $1400, I think? 
   
  Cheers!


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Confused.......................I guess you mean it's easier to screw up a discrete circuit?  LOL!
> You need more R&D time to build a good circuit with discrete transistors?
> 
> If, yes, I agree!
> ...


 
  Yes, easier to screw up, and thus more R and D time to make stuff that works right. Also, people that generally do discrete amps, I've found, are more eccentric and don't just want to follow regular designs but entirely new ones following their own theory of how audio works.
  They want to be different. Audio-Gd's Kingwa is a great example of this.
   
  10 E12's?
   
  I have an Audio-Gd and it is built well


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> Yes, easier to screw up, and thus more R and D time to make stuff that works right. Also, people that generally do discrete amps, I've found, are more eccentric and don't just want to follow regular designs but entirely new ones following their own theory of how audio works.
> They want to be different. Audio-Gd's Kingwa is a great example of this.
> 
> 10 E12's?
> ...


 
   
  I used to design Analog Signal Processing hardware for a SONAR research system.
  I used Op Amps.
  I guess that means I'm not eccentric!     LOL!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  I don't know what I would do with 10 E12s, but I do know what I would do with 1 E12 or 1 Bryston HPA-1.


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





chris j said:


> I used to design Analog Signal Processing hardware for a SONAR research system.
> I used Op Amps.
> I guess that means I'm not eccentric!     LOL!
> 
> ...


 
  That is interesting  That sounds a bit like Tyll's old job!
   
  If it was me, I would have gone the easy and also proven way as well.
   
  10 E12's? If I magically just got a hold of 10 E12's?  I would engrave the backs and fronts on each of them with custom art and writing (different for each unit) and have them sent to 10 select Head-Fi friends who pulled me out of a sinking ship.


----------



## Evshrug

bowei006 said:


> That is interesting  That sounds a bit like Tyll's old job!
> 
> If it was me, I would have gone the easy and also proven way as well.
> 
> 10 E12's? If I magically just got a hold of 10 E12's?  I would engrave the backs and fronts on each of them with custom art and writing (different for each unit) and have them sent to 10 select Head-Fi friends who pulled me out of a sinking ship.



If only said hypothetical sinking ship had Chris J's SONAR amps onboard...



Yes I realize it was a SOund Navigation And Ranging device, not a typical amp.
I suppose I should/could contribute to this thread by timing how long a full charge lasts, but I only have the amp on while listening to music, and I only listen to music for a few hours a day. Without recording my "clock-in" and "clock-out" times, it would be impossible for me to keep track, plus, you know, it would feel like work and I listen to music for fun after work. Also, people haven't really been asking how long mine has lasted. Suffice to say, it lasts about as long as my iPod 5th gen, heh. Seems practical enough.


----------



## Evshrug

Transmission error, double post.


----------



## disastermouse

Is this thing selling yet? It doesn't show up on Amazon and the Micca Store shows a blank page with "Product Not Found".


----------



## Craigster75

Quote: 





disastermouse said:


> Is this thing selling yet? It doesn't show up on Amazon and the Micca Store shows a blank page with "Product Not Found".


 

 Maybe awaiting shipment of the bass enhanced units?


----------



## Chris J

bowei006 said:


> That is interesting  That sounds a bit like Tyll's old job!
> 
> If it was me, I would have gone the easy and also proven way as well.
> 
> 10 E12's? If I magically just got a hold of 10 E12's?  I would engrave the backs and fronts on each of them with custom art and writing (different for each unit) and have them sent to 10 select Head-Fi friends who pulled me out of a sinking ship.




We had a budget, deadlines, and set of discrete circuits would have had no advantages that we could see.

I read a headphone amp review in HiFi+, the reviewer referred to an amp as a hybrid design because it used various types of transistors.


----------



## Chris J

evshrug said:


> Transmission error, double post.




Time to change your transmission fluid!


----------



## Craigster75

James,
   
  Since Micca Store no longer has E12 on their web site, it is safe to assume they are out of stock and when they have new stock it will be with the new modified bass boost?  If so, when should they have US stock?
   
  I have looked at all the new portable amp options and I am ready to order the E12 as soon as the new bass boost is available.


----------



## disastermouse

chris j said:


> Try going to the Sound Science Forum!
> The Objective Crusaders censure all Subjective thinking.
> Just like a scene out of the Ridley Scott film "Kingdom Of Heaven".
> The Kingdom Of Heaven had a bunch of guys screaming "God Wills It!"
> The Sci Forum has a bunch of guys screaming "Science Wills It!"



They are a rabid bunch. According to them, the O2 is God's gift to sensible audiophiles, but I found it far short of that.


----------



## Chris J

disastermouse said:


> They are a rabid bunch. According to them, the O2 is God's gift to sensible audiophiles, but I found it far short of that.




Yes, they seem to think any headphone amp that deviates from the neutral is the Devil's handywork! :mad:
ABX and DBT is the only true religion......:rolleyes:
They are an eccentric bunch! 

I've never heard the O2, what didn't you like about it?


----------



## disastermouse

chris j said:


> Yes, they seem to think any headphone amp that deviates from the neutral is the Devil's handywork! :mad:
> ABX and DBT is the only true religion......:rolleyes:
> They are an eccentric bunch!
> 
> I've never heard the O2, what didn't you like about it?



My DAC is too hot for them and the standard wall wart doesn't drive it loud enough for my HE-500. When trying to drive them loud enough, it clipped. The sound stage is narrow but less congested than the E9 for my HD650. The Magni makes the HE-500 amazing and makes the HD650 mid bass more prominent than either the O2 or E9. The Magni makes the HD650 weirdly smooth but not as warm as the E9. I haven't AB'd the O2 and Magni with the HD650s yet - I'm still too enchanted by the HE-500 to tear myself away from the Magni/HE-500 combo yet.


----------



## akash neagi

Anyone did any comparisons of the e12 and the c5?


----------



## canikickit1

How is the bass boost compared to the E11?


----------



## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





craigster75 said:


> James,
> 
> Since Micca Store no longer has E12 on their web site, it is safe to assume they are out of stock and when they have new stock it will be with the new modified bass boost?  If so, when should they have US stock?
> 
> I have looked at all the new portable amp options and I am ready to order the E12 as soon as the new bass boost is available.


 
   
  Yes, the new batch of Mont Blanc will be available soon, and it comes with new bass boost.


----------



## Chris J

disastermouse said:


> My DAC is too hot for them and the standard wall wart doesn't drive it loud enough for my HE-500. When trying to drive them loud enough, it clipped. The sound stage is narrow but less congested than the E9 for my HD650. The Magni makes the HE-500 amazing and makes the HD650 mid bass more prominent than either the O2 or E9. The Magni makes the HD650 weirdly smooth but not as warm as the E9. I haven't AB'd the O2 and Magni with the HD650s yet - I'm still too enchanted by the HE-500 to tear myself away from the Magni/HE-500 combo yet.




The standard wall wart doesn't drive it loud enough?
The current output is limited by the Op Amps.
A higher output voltgage wall wart will probably make very little difference, I suspect.


----------



## disastermouse

chris j said:


> The standard wall wart doesn't drive it loud enough?
> The current output is limited by the Op Amps.
> A higher output voltgage wall wart will probably make very little difference, I suspect.



I'm just telling you what the O2 fanatics have told me.


----------



## Chris J

disastermouse said:


> I'm just telling you what the O2 fanatics have told me.




NP.
I'm just asking, it's not supposed to be a criticism! 

I saw Bill P's reply in the other E12 thread.


----------



## ToInfinity

If anyone is interested in purchasing an E12 just message me, I'm selling a brand new never used E12 on Ebay with a 14 day return policy. 
  I also have it listed in the sales forums here


----------



## tamngoman

is the e12 a better alternative than the e7k+e9k stack?


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





tamngoman said:


> is the e12 a better alternative than the e7k+e9k stack?


 
  They aren't the same things
   
  E12 is just a portable amp
   
  E07K is a portable DAC and amp and E09K is a non portable desktop amp.


----------



## Dyaems

got my E12 since last week. i think i dont need to give more impressions since i pretty much agree with most of the impressions here--- except that the e12 cant drive my 32ohm ortho ES7 using low gain, and it sounds abit wierd on high gain.
   
  /me goes back to lurking mode


----------



## Evshrug

chris j said:


> Time to change your transmission fluid!



You might actually be right...



dyaems said:


> got my E12 since last week. i think i dont need to give more impressions since i pretty much agree with most of the impressions here--- except that the e12 cant drive my 32ohm ortho ES7 using low gain, and it sounds abit wierd on high gain.
> 
> /me goes back to lurking mode



Could you elaborate on "weird with the ES7 on high gain?" And by can't drive, do you mean it's quiet?


----------



## chanle

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> Yes, the new batch of Mont Blanc will be available soon, and it comes with new bass boost.


 
   
  Can you give us ETA on the new E12 batch? I'm traveling overseas by April 10th and would love to have it with my trip. thanks


----------



## Hutnicks

Quote: 





chanle said:


> Can you give us ETA on the new E12 batch? thanks


 

 Hell with that. I want a trade in program for the E11.


----------



## Analoog

Does anyone use E12 to drive HD650-s? Has it got enough juice to power these cans?


----------



## miceblue

Quote: 





analoog said:


> Does anyone use E12 to drive HD650-s? Has it got enough juice to power these cans?


 
  I'm assuming yes, but I can't confirm it for sure. I think someone said it drives their HD650's just fine *don't quote me on that*.
  Quote: 





tsujigiri said:


> Listening to it right now! It certainly does make the HD650's sound a lot better, much more engaging and with better bass and treble. I'm really glad I waited for the more powerful E12; it seems perfectly suited for these phones. Without the amp, my Zune plays the HD650's nice and loud at 25/30 on the volume bar. With the amp on high gain, it will play them at 15/30 (although a lower volume is more comfortable, especially for extended listening). As the other reviewers have noted, the build of the E12 is very nice, but the recessed buttons are slightly annoying (not a big deal). What really surprised me is how much I like the bass boost. I didn't think that I would use it, but I think I'll keep it on all the time. It actually doesn't seem to make any difference on the songs that don't have a lot of deep bass, but on the songs that have sub bass it compensates quite well for the HD650's low end rolloff without adding coloration. It really seems like this amp was made for the HD650's.


----------



## Bill-P

Quote: 





analoog said:


> Does anyone use E12 to drive HD650-s? Has it got enough juice to power these cans?


 
   
  It does so just fine. I plugged an HD 650 into my E12 at the SF Bay Area Meet.
   
  However, I don't think you'll like the sound. HD 650 has a dark sound already, and E12 just makes it overbearing. I think you'll want a clean amp (like O2) for HD 650.


----------



## jacknight

so e12 makes hd650 sounds darker?


----------



## Evshrug

^^
*shrug* I don't have the HD650, but in general the headphone has been described as having a laid-back sound. The E12 won't change that substantially. One trouble I have is people use "dark" to describe different things... If the HD650 has treble roll-off or just not much treble "sparkle" or brightness, the E12 probably won't change that. My Q701s still have sparkle without being too harsh (tho some poorly recorded songs sound harsh anyway), and my AD700 still had sparkle the one time I combo'd it with the Mont Blanc. If Bill-P meant dark in another way... I will just shrug and say it hasn't been a problem with my headphones, maybe someday I'll hear what he means with an HD650 but I'm not going to worry about it.


----------



## waynes world

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> ^^
> *shrug* I don't have the HD650, but in general the headphone has been described as having a laid-back sound. The E12 won't change that substantially. One trouble I have is people use "dark" to describe different things... If the HD650 has treble roll-off or just not much treble "sparkle" or brightness, the E12 probably won't change that. My Q701s still have sparkle without being too harsh (tho some poorly recorded songs sound harsh anyway), and my AD700 still had sparkle the one time I combo'd it with the Mont Blanc. If Bill-P meant dark in another way... I will just shrug and say it hasn't been a problem with my headphones, maybe someday I'll hear what he means with an HD650 but I'm not going to worry about it.


 
   
  Just read your E12 review again (it's been a while). Great review, and basically mirrors how I feel about the E12 with my AD900X's.


----------



## Stoney

I use HD650s and don't find them dark with anything, save my (departed) Woo WA6 tube amp. 
  I use them with the E7, E17, and Arrow, all set flat, and find them fine. 
  Of course, I have a couple of minor mods: Cardas Clear Light cables, and removed the foam.  
  (For reference, I like flat (not boosted) or slightly soft treble, neutral to slightly warm midrange (voice), and flat to slightly warm bass.)
   
  Can someone point me to the E12 review(s)?


----------



## Hutnicks

Quote: 





stoney said:


> I use HD650s and don't find them dark with anything, save my (departed) Woo WA6 tube amp.
> I use them with the E7, E17, and Arrow, all set flat, and find them fine.
> Of course, I have a couple of minor mods: Cardas Clear Light cables, and removed the foam.
> (For reference, I like flat (not boosted) or slightly soft treble, neutral to slightly warm midrange (voice), and flat to slightly warm bass.)
> ...


 

 http://www.head-fi.org/t/650683/fiio-e12-mont-blanc-review-and-help-thread


----------



## voxx

For those in the UK ea-audio are now taking pre-booking orders for the E12 at £109.99 for delivery in April. They only have limited stock though. 

They are an approved dealer though if you look on the FiiO web site.


----------



## Evshrug

waynes world said:


> Just read your E12 review again (it's been a while). Great review, and basically mirrors how I feel about the E12 with my AD900X's.



Thank you! I recently had people suggest that I ought to try the new AD900X, since I'm a longtime AD700 user... PM me if you wrote a review on your headphone?


Stoney,
I believe I have my E12 review linked in my signature, posted on Head-Fi's E12 Mont Blanc product page? Also, Gavin linked his review on this thread page 38, and CiieOS has his short review amongst his over-$100-amp-shoot out. Boweii009 has a review up too, I think, but I don't know where (hopefully also on the product page like mine). *Edit:* just read Boweii's review for the first time, Hutnicks linked it above. I applaud the effort he put into his review, looks like there is a whole gamut in review styles on the E12 now


----------



## pngwn

Evshrug, I'll pm you my thoughts and semi review of my 900x as I also upgraded from the 700


----------



## bowei006

Thanks, my reviews really just follow my self created review pattern.


----------



## UnityIsPower

hutnicks said:


> And here I thought objectivism died with Ayn Rand.  There's merit to both arguments, the problem with objectiveists is they run into a road block when it comes to the psycho acoustic model as science has *not yet *explained that sufficiently well to determine why we have a preference to one sound or another.




"I think a very strong objectivist slant is damaging to ones appreciation of the subtleties of the listening experience. None the less, I'd rather have an objectivist design my gear than a subjectivist who thinks there's some sort of magic in the box.
I like the O2 for the price, and it does measure very well. But it's a bit lifeless and dry sounding. Don't ask me why." - Tyll @ reddit Q&A


----------



## Evshrug

pngwn said:


> Evshrug, I'll pm you my thoughts and semi review of my 900x as I also upgraded from the 700



Sweeeeet! Thanks


----------



## Chris J

unityispower said:


> "I think a very strong objectivist slant is damaging to ones appreciation of the subtleties of the listening experience. None the less, I'd rather have an objectivist design my gear than a subjectivist who thinks there's some sort of magic in the box.
> I like the O2 for the price, and it does measure very well. But it's a bit lifeless and dry sounding. Don't ask me why." - Tyll @ reddit Q&A




You've completely ruined audio for me!

I had always assumed that there was a demon in the magic box!

Guess I was wrong........:mad:


----------



## Hutnicks

Quote: 





unityispower said:


> "I think a very strong objectivist slant is damaging to ones appreciation of the subtleties of the listening experience. None the less, I'd rather have an objectivist design my gear than a subjectivist who thinks there's some sort of magic in the box.
> I like the O2 for the price, and it does measure very well. But it's a bit lifeless and dry sounding. Don't ask me why." - Tyll @ reddit Q&A


 
   
  I think you are confusing subjectivists with Luddites  I think the designer need be a little of both. Something can actually measure out perfectly and sound as appealing as fingernails on a blackboard.
   
  Amps and headphones all behave differently so I am not surprised to hear an O2 (or any other amp) essentially adding nothing of merit to a given system You can have the same reaction with DACs as well the wrong one can kill a headphones sound
  . On the other end of the spectrum is the Sony MDR V3 headphone, which funnily enough on its own sounds exactly half as good as a V6 in all arenas. Plug it into just about any amp and you have to take them off your head to believe they are the same headphones you put on.
   
  The good news (well not that good if you spent the money already to own the O2) is that you now have a pretty good idea in which direction to go with an amp to suit your application


----------



## Dyaems

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> You might actually be right...
> Could you elaborate on "weird with the ES7 on high gain?" And by can't drive, do you mean it's quiet?


 
   
  yep it cant drive on low gain because of sensitivity, my es7's sensitivity is too darn low for an SFI (ortho/planar) driver. too much damping maybe~ max volume of the sony F800 is louder than max volume of E12 at lowgain through the sony's lineout
   
  it sounds weird on high gain maybe because i am hearing this somewhat distorted sound. not that distorted with odd sounds like "bzzz" or "shhh" sounds though, maybe grainy is one of those words, but worse.
   
  it might have been a problem with the headphone itself though, i recently recabled it with and it is giving me problems after that. i think the problem is related to the soldering job so that "wierd sound" may have to change once i fix the es7.


----------



## Evshrug

Good luck


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





dyaems said:


> yep it cant drive on low gain because of sensitivity, my es7's sensitivity is too darn low for an SFI (ortho/planar) driver. too much damping maybe~ max volume of the sony F800 is louder than max volume of E12 at lowgain through the sony's lineout
> 
> it sounds weird on high gain maybe because i am hearing this somewhat distorted sound. not that distorted with odd sounds like "bzzz" or "shhh" sounds though, maybe grainy is one of those words, but worse.
> 
> it might have been a problem with the headphone itself though, i recently recabled it with and it is giving me problems after that. i think the problem is related to the soldering job so that "wierd sound" may have to change once i fix the es7.


 
   
  If you're listening to Taylor Swift that weird sound is actually her singing voice......


----------



## areinike

9, Can be used while charging.
   
Would be the ONLY reason I upgrade from the E11.  Hmmm.  With 111 pages, had to have been said already ....


----------



## Hutnicks

Quote: 





chris j said:


> If you're listening to Taylor Swift that weird sound is actually her singing voice......


 
  Isn't she justin beiber with boobs?
  Quote: 





areinike said:


> 9, Can be used while charging.
> 
> Would be the ONLY reason I upgrade from the E11.  Hmmm.  With 111 pages, had to have been said already ....


 
  Cannot seem to recall
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  But I am dreaming of an exchange/upgrade program for us poor underappreciated E11 owners


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





hutnicks said:


> Isn't she justin beiber with boobs?
> Cannot seem to recall


 
   
  No, Beiber can actually sing!
  Not a big fan in any way whatsoever, but at least the Beib can sing on key.
  Taylor can sing on key every third or fourth word, but that's purely by chance..........
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Not even the E12 can make Swift sound good!


----------



## jRi0T68

And here my biggest problem with Taylor Swift was that she's annoying and stuck in the mentality of an over-hormonal 15 yr old.


----------



## Sumbuba

She ain't no Mingus


----------



## Hutnicks

Quote: 





jri0t68 said:


> And here my biggest problem with Taylor Swift was that she's annoying and stuck in the mentality of an over-hormonal 15 yr old.


 
   
  Wouldn't have anything to do with the Corporate music machine pumping these bimbo sapiens out of injection molding plants and marketing the hell out of them. the Taylors, Britneys et al are just a product the teen flavour of the day which has no clue what to do with itself when adulthood looms over them. Bimbo rock 101, Make IT Market IT, Make Room For The Next IT.


----------



## Stoney

Don't forget the manufactured hunk-sterism of the music industry: One Direction (is that InSync part 2?), Rascal Flats, etc.  
   
  PS: thanks for the review links, and the great Tyll quote.


----------



## Dyaems




----------



## Chris J

sumbuba said:


> She ain't no Mingus




She ain't no Miles either.

At least Brittany is nicely upholstered! 

An E12 would be wasted on either Brit or Taylor's music, etc.


----------



## djc926

dyaems said:


> got my E12 since last week. i think i dont need to give more impressions since i pretty much agree with most of the impressions here--- except that the e12 cant drive my 32ohm ortho ES7 using low gain, and it sounds abit wierd on high gain.
> 
> /me goes back to lurking mode




How is this possible? 
I drive my Sennheiser HD600 with the E12 and even on low gain setting, I never need to go past the halfway mark. Anything more gets uncomfortably loud. 
HD600 is rated at 300 ohms


----------



## miceblue

Quote: 





djc926 said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  The sensitivity of a headphone also plays a big role in the ability of an amp to drive a headphone to sufficient volume levels. Having an insensitive headphone (i.e. planar magnetic headphone) will require more power to get to the same volume level as a very sensitive headphone (i.e. earphone).


----------



## Dyaems

yep its the sensitivity (and damping) that is making the SFI driver drive harder on E12


----------



## jay-w

I bought my E12 off a fellow headfier as there's still no international release and I was tired of waiting.
   
  I have to say the "subtle" bass boost is beautiful...I'm glad I got version 1.


----------



## jiggahwhat

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> ^^
> *shrug* I don't have the HD650, but in general the headphone has been described as having a laid-back sound. The E12 won't change that substantially. One trouble I have is people use "dark" to describe different things... If the HD650 has treble roll-off or just not much treble "sparkle" or brightness, the E12 probably won't change that. My Q701s still have sparkle without being too harsh (tho some poorly recorded songs sound harsh anyway), and my AD700 still had sparkle the one time I combo'd it with the Mont Blanc. If Bill-P meant dark in another way... I will just shrug and say it hasn't been a problem with my headphones, maybe someday I'll hear what he means with an HD650 but I'm not going to worry about it.


 
   
  The E12 made my HE-400s sound brighter. More treble. So...


----------



## Evshrug

jiggahwhat said:


> The E12 made my HE-400s sound brighter. More treble. So...



When I borrowed an HE-400 from a friend for a week, the difference between E12 and iPod headphone jack was the iPod was colder, thinner. I didn't have the headphones long term (and they're out of my reach now), but my experience didn't match yours. Then again, there are a few revisions of the HE-400, and the one I tested had velour pads which were quite nice.


----------



## KimChee

Yeargh when are they mass releasing this!


----------



## Hutnicks

Quote: 





kimchee said:


> Yeargh when are they mass releasing this!


 

 I vote that in lieu of a prompt release they put a few units out to head fi as loaner demos.


----------



## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





hutnicks said:


> I vote that in lieu of a prompt release they put a few units out to head fi as loaner demos.


 
   
  start to ship the new batch to our distributor and sales agents this week.


----------



## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





dyaems said:


>


 
   
  this photo shown why we put the headphone out in the middle.


----------



## Oregonian

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> start to ship the new batch to our distributor and sales agents this week.


 
   
  And who will that be?  Amazon/Micca?  I'm ready to get the enhanced bass version.


----------



## Dyaems

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> this photo shown why we put the headphone out in the middle.


 

 in the future, you should make the angled 3.5mm to 3.5mm freebie interconnects alot shorter, maybe 1-2 inches shorter =)


----------



## bowei006

oregonian said:


> And who will that be?  Amazon/Micca?  I'm ready to get the enhanced bass version.


Micca and parts are the ones tht both have personal site and amazon dealer. Get from dealer site.


----------



## Chris J

Headfoneshop is now showing the E12 on their website!


----------



## Hutnicks

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Headfoneshop is now showing the E12 on their website!


 

 In next week at 125 bucks, hmm.


----------



## KamijoIsMyHero

headphone bar will also have it next week at $120 for BC residents


----------



## waynes world

Quote: 





kamijoismyhero said:


> headphone bar will also have it next week at $120 for BC residents


 
   
  That's great! Makes me wonder why I paid $130 from Micca and then some more on top of that to get it shipped to me. Oh yeah... because I _*needed*_ to have it *then* lol! Oh, and I wanted version 1.


----------



## Makiah S

are there any of the non bass enhanced versions still avalibel for puchase q.q, as I'm begining to think my E11 and cMoy BB need replaceing as they are not as clean as I'd like em to be.


----------



## Oregonian

Quote: 





mshenay said:


> are there any of the non bass enhanced versions still avalibel for puchase q.q, as I'm begining to think my E11 and cMoy BB need replaceing as they are not as clean as I'd like em to be.


 
   
  I saw one in the For Sale forum the other day.


----------



## waynes world

Quote: 





oregonian said:


> I saw one in the For Sale forum the other day.


 
   
  And if the C&C BH that I'm getting soon comes anywhere close to my E12's sound quality, then I might sell my E12v1. But I like the E12 so much, I'm having my doubts that I'll be able to part with it.


----------



## imackler

Thanks to all those who are updating when and where they are available for sale. I'm eager to find one, too! 
   
  waynes world, looking forward to hearing your impressions on the C&C BH. I've got a $50 discount on ebay so i could get one for $50... Kind of tempted.


----------



## JSchwage

Can't wait for this to be more readily available. I think this is the amp I want. Was looking at the E07K but I really like the looks of this one! I'll just get a DAC later on.


----------



## pngwn

Quote: 





waynes world said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  I can tell you the bass doesn't come close, but the BH has a slightly better soundstage and treble, if that's what you're looking forward to. YMMV, of course.


----------



## imackler

Quote: 





pngwn said:


> I can tell you the bass doesn't come close, but the BH has a slightly better soundstage and treble, if that's what you're looking forward to. YMMV, of course.


 
   
  Which gives the most tight, impacting bass?


----------



## pngwn

Quote: 





imackler said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  The E12 v1 has better controlled, more textured, and more impactful bass than the BH. The BH has nice bass, too, but the E12 just has more and better. I can't speak for v2, the mass produced version that will be coming out soon, but I expect it will have similar quality bass, just not as sub-bassy as the v1.
   
  For EDM, the differences are almost negligible if you're not listening with a figurative microscope, but low string instruments, for example, sound much better on the E12 than the BH. In contrast, the BH offers better treble with the SF and LF switches.


----------



## Oregonian

Quote: 





pngwn said:


> The E12 v1 has better controlled, more textured, and more impactful bass than the BH. The BH has nice bass, too, but the E12 just has more and better. I can't speak for v2, the mass produced version that will be coming out soon, but I expect it will have similar quality bass, just not as sub-bassy as the v1.
> 
> For EDM, the differences are almost negligible if you're not listening with a figurative microscope, but low string instruments, for example, sound much better on the E12 than the BH. In contrast, the BH offers better treble with the SF and LF switches.


 
   
  Why do you think the Version 2 E-12 will have less sub bass than the V1?


----------



## waynes world

Quote: 





oregonian said:


> Why do you think the Version 2 E-12 will have less sub bass than the V1?


 
   
  Because of this:
   
  Quote: 





> About the bass boost feature in Mont Blanc, we decide to change the design, as you can see , the current frequency response is as below
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## bowei006

I'm guessing FiiO is doing this permanent change because people in China also asked about it.
   
   


> The reason that some people does not feel very good about the bass boost in Mont Blanc


 
  Interesting that the people here and in China HIFI thought the same thing.


----------



## waynes world

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> I'm guessing FiiO is doing this permanent change because people in China also asked about it.
> 
> 
> Interesting that the people here and in China HIFI thought the same thing.


 
   
  I'm sure the revised bass boost will be fine/great/better for some, but I sure do like the version 1 bass boost with my gear. Sounds amazing with the AD900X (pngwn made me aware of that great pairing), and also works very well with the WS99 (which have a amazing bass signature to begin with).


----------



## jazzman7

I totally agree with the above post.  If "bigger bass is the new flat,"  I like the v1 curve more than the v2, because the former shelves whereas the latter peaks.  In fact, I picked up the E12 v1 when I saw the planned change and am totally happy with my purchase. 
   
  I've had many subwoofer moments with the E12 v1 where the bass has that visceral feel.  The music has to have energy down in the lowest audible octave, though.  I'm sure there are lots of people who tried the bass boost and said, "I didn't hear any change."  It is probably because their music doesn't have much energy below 40 Hz.  Fiio is wise to make the design change, because it will sell more amplifiers to the masses.  Sub-bass is definitely an enthusiast's pursuit.


----------



## Typhoon859

Quote: 





jazzman7 said:


> Sub-bass is definitely an enthusiast's pursuit.


 
  Or for professional purposes.


----------



## JamesFiiO

Dear Friends,
   
Thanks for your patience and constant attention!
Finally, E12 is ready for sale now, but this batch has some changes based on the first batch, below are the changes:
  
1. Silk-screen，the “ gain” is changed to 16dB (the first batch is 10dB but the real gain is 16dB ); 
   
2. The bass boost frequency center has raised from 20Hz  to 50Hz .
  
We have started the delivery of E12（second batch） from the day of March 26th, and up to now, the following are the countries and agents list which we have sent goods to.
   
March 26th：
US： TekFX  , Parts Express
 UK：EA audio
 Sweden：UZTORE AB
 Germany：NT Global Distribution GmbH
Canada：Headphone Bar
   
March 27th：
US：LIQUIANA, INC
Canada：Headfoneshop
Germany：Headsound Audio
Norway：SoundcareAS
Australia：Addicted To Audio
   
March 28th：
Italy：Audio Azimuth
 Australia：Sound Sight Focus
 Thailand：Holysai
 New Zealand：Sound Essentials
Mexico：Audiofilia
   
   
March 29th : 
Australia: Noisy Motel
South Korea: Headphone World
South Korea:  TS
Philippines: XTC
Singapore: Treoo
Thailand: FiiOThai Ordianary Partnership
Belarus: Morejka
Netherlands: HDPHNS
Poland: MIP
Estonia: Mamear AS
   
For the information of below dealer , you can check where to buy in our official website www.fiio.net
   
By estimate, it would take 4 to 5 working days for the parcel to reach our agent, which means all of you can try to contact the local sales agent at the beginning of April.

 Any comment or question, please feel free to contact us or directly contact our local agent.


----------



## putente

Quote: 





jazzman7 said:


> I totally agree with the above post.  If "bigger bass is the new flat,"  I like the v1 curve more than the v2, because the former shelves whereas the latter peaks.  In fact, I picked up the E12 v1 when I saw the planned change and am totally happy with my purchase.
> 
> I've had many subwoofer moments with the E12 v1 where the bass has that visceral feel.  The music has to have energy down in the lowest audible octave, though.  I'm sure there are lots of people who tried the bass boost and said, "I didn't hear any change."  It is probably because their music doesn't have much energy below 40 Hz.  Fiio is wise to make the design change, because it will sell more amplifiers to the masses.  Sub-bass is definitely an enthusiast's pursuit.


 
   
   
  ^^^ That. I'm keeping my E12 just because of it's unique bass boost (or sub-bass boost, to be acurate). By changing it for this new bacth, FiiO transformed the E12's almost unique feature among portable headphone amps into something that amost every other portable amp with a bass switch also does. Bad call from FiiO if you ask me...


----------



## JSchwage

Thanks James for posting the information on the different stores receiving the E12! As soon as I see it in stock at one of these stores I'm placing my order!


----------



## akash neagi

anyone paired the e12 with the hd215?


----------



## BenF

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> Dear Friends,
> 
> Thanks for your patience and constant attention!
> Finally, E12 is ready for sale now, but this batch has some changes based on the first batch, below are the changes:
> ...


 
  So it's 50Hz-20000Hz now? Not very attractive...


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





benf said:


> So it's 50Hz-20000Hz now? Not very attractive...


 
   
  There is some miscommunication there. I am pretty sure James meant to say the peak bass EQ frequency response has moved from 20Hz to 50Hz, thus giving a broader bass boost effect. The actual FR still extends down to 20Hz.


----------



## waynes world

^ Yup - that must be what James meant.


----------



## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





waynes world said:


> ^ Yup - that must be what James meant.


 
   
  Sorry, already fixed.


----------



## imackler

For anyone curious, [size=x-small]TexFX is Miccastore! Yeah![/size]


----------



## MrScratch

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> Dear Friends,
> 
> Thanks for your patience and constant attention!
> Finally, E12 is ready for sale now [...]


 
   
  Finally! It's time to spam my local dealer mailbox.


----------



## Typhoon859

Is V1 going to be around at all?


----------



## waynes world

Quote: 





typhoon859 said:


> Is V1 going to be around at all?


 
   
  I could be wrong, but I think that they are only manufacturing V2's now. Also, I don't think that any company have any V1's still available.


----------



## Stoney

Quote: 





waynes world said:


> I'm sure the revised bass boost will be fine/great/better for some, but I sure do like the version 1 bass boost with my gear. Sounds amazing with the AD900X (pngwn made me aware of that great pairing), and also works very well with the WS99 (which have a amazing bass signature to begin with).


 
   
  Three problems for someone with somewhat wideband headphones (like my HD650): 
  1. The original subtle bass enhancement is exactly what I need.  
  2. The new bass feature will create bloat given the width of the boost. 
  3. The bass now drops off in the low bass, which I can detect on other such devices, and disappoints.  
   
  Too bad the switch can't be 3 positions.  
   
  Also: I wish there were a subtle treble reduction slope down.  Many headphones are treble heavy, and on my HD650, the E7 and E17 seem hyped as well as slightly uncomfortable in the higher frequencies.  I get a tiny bit of improvement on the E17 with optical cable (removing USB charge) and with the gain set to max.
   
  Question: is the E17 gain purely digital? If so, my observation would seem ungrounded, unless there is some issue with dither or truncation at different gain settings.


----------



## MrJoshua

Well, I've managed to stay away from here for ages, but the 9v battery died while I was commuting with my Graham Slee Voyager earlier this week, so I decided to look into rechargeable amps and stumbled across the Fiio E12.
   
  I pulled the trigger and pre-ordered one!
   
  No idea how it's going to stack up next to the excellent Voyager with my HD-25-1-II and UE TripleFi 10 (and from time to time HD-650), but we'll see.
   
  It looks like it should be more airport screening friendly than the 9v-battery-in-a-project-box -Voyager at least!


----------



## JamesFiiO

Delivery of E12 on March 29th : 
   
  Australia: Noisy Motel
  South Korea: Headphone World
  South Korea:  TS
  Philippines: XTC
  Singapore: Treoo
  Thailand: FiiOThai Ordianary Partnership
  Belarus: Morejka
  Netherlands: HDPHNS
  Poland: MIP
  Estonia: Mamear AS


----------



## Chris J

stoney said:


> Three problems for someone with somewhat wideband headphones (like my HD650):
> 1. The original subtle bass enhancement is exactly what I need.
> 2. The new bass feature will create bloat given the width of the boost.
> 3. The bass now drops off in the low bass, which I can detect on other such devices, and disappoints.
> ...




This is an Analog amplifier
Edit:
Ignore that comment, since this is the E12 thread I thought you were asking about the E12.....


----------



## Stoney

Quote: 





chris j said:


> This is an Analog amplifier.


 
   
  Understood.  Make sure to read the top paragraphs.  
  I mention it because of the same maker and probably some same customers.


----------



## chanle

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> Sorry, already fixed.


 
   
  I just got E12 v1 and got a problem that if gain on while charging. You hear a lot of noise. Did this issue get fixed on E12 v2? Thanks


----------



## kob12

hello . How u think guys about pair e12 with ie80 ? actually i'v got e11 , e12 is superior but is there more open soundstage ??


----------



## Chris J

stoney said:


> Understood.  Make sure to read the top paragraphs.
> I mention it because of the same maker and probably some same customers.




Ignore that comment!
I thought you were talking about the E12! 

I suspect the volume control on the E17 is digital but I really don't know for sure.


----------



## BenF

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> Delivery of E12 on March 29th :
> 
> Australia: Noisy Motel
> South Korea: Headphone World
> ...


 

 When is MP4Nation scheduled to receive it?


----------



## Change is Good

I am thinking about purchasing an E12... then pair it with a DAC such as the HRT Music Streamer II. Would this be suitable for my Q701s? I need more of a portable amp for use with my laptop and this setup sounds tempting. Some feedback would be highly appreciated before I jump the gun.


----------



## Evshrug

I think it's interesting that bass concerns continue to be a topic. A lot of people now seem to be echoing my comments when I praised the E12 bass-boost to be particularly well-suited and unique to counter sub-bass roll off that's apparent in most open headphones without messing with the good stuff in the rest of the frequency range. I still stand by my review and opinions I've had all along, BUT... I haven't heard the new version. It may not be very different. One of the things I noticed before the change was announced was that the people who expressed in this thread that the amp needed a ... uh... more apparent bass boost were people who hadn't even heard the amp with their headphones yet. Since thE change is done and baked into the new units, I say lets wait for some user impressions before we start labeling the sound, ok?



change is good said:


> I am thinking about purchasing an E12... then pair it with a DAC such as the HRT Music Streamer II. Would this be suitable for my Q701s? I need more of a portable amp for use with my laptop and this setup sounds tempting. Some feedback would be highly appreciated before I jump the gun.



I thought it was a great pairing. My review of the combo is on the E12's Head-Fi product page, and linked in my signature. There are other opinions (generally positive) on the Q701 with E12 in the first release.


----------



## Typhoon859

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> I think it's interesting that bass concerns continue to be a topic. A lot of people now seem to be echoing my comments when I praised the E12 bass-boost to be particularly well-suited and unique to counter sub-bass roll off that's apparent in most open headphones without messing with the good stuff in the rest of the frequency range. I still stand by my review and opinions I've had all along, BUT... I haven't heard the new version. It may not be very different. One of the things I noticed before the change was announced was that the people who expressed in this thread that the amp needed a ... uh... more apparent bass boost were people who hadn't even heard the amp with their headphones yet. Since thE change is done and baked into the new units, I say lets wait for some user impressions before we start labeling the sound, ok?
> I thought it was a great pairing. My review of the combo is on the E12's Head-Fi product page, and linked in my signature. There are other opinions (generally positive) on the Q701 with E12 in the first release.


 
  I am guilty of this, but your impression and/or point is misguided.
   
  Technical information is given for someone who is experienced to be able to very well tell the effects of this increase/decrease in frequencies.  It wasn't the overall sound that was addressed before the unit was heard unless based on other technical information and what it further may mean.  I think there are points which can very fairly be argued before even hearing the amp.  Some people have finer hearing, are looking for something specific, and/or need it for professional uses, and arguments can be made for one version or the other.  It's not as simple as just if it sounds "good" or not.  If it were just that, any bass boost would then suffice.
   
  In my case originally, I simply misread the graphs that were posted, or rather, assumed that certain things were one way when in fact they were done otherwise.


----------



## calibro

How much?


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





calibro said:


> How much?


 
  How Much Can You Take?
   
  (with apologies to Alex Machin and Hughie Leggat, the song's authors)


----------



## Change is Good

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> I thought it was a great pairing. My review of the combo is on the E12's Head-Fi product page, and linked in my signature. There are other opinions (generally positive) on the Q701 with E12 in the first release.


 
  Awesome! I'll check out your review as soon as I get a chance. As for the HRT MSII, would that be a good DAC for the E12 and Q701 combo?


----------



## Evshrug

typhoon859 said:


> I am guilty of this, but your impression and/or point is misguided.



I wasn't attacking you. My point was that, in general, I think there was an overestimation about the lack of appeal in the original bass boost, and changing it was an overreaction to a couple of people wanting something different. Now, I don't know how many people in the Chinese forums wanted more/different bass boost, but I still feel safe believing that people who say "EVERYONE wants more bass" are exaggerating. A lot. I applaud the design choices of the engineers that made the original, though the new one will probably be fine anyway.

I don't want to get dragged back into that though, I've been mostly avoiding this thread because of how critical people were getting.



change is good said:


> Awesome! I'll check out your review as soon as I get a chance. As for the HRT MSII, would that be a good DAC for the E12 and Q701 combo?



I don't have much experience with different DACs, but that one has been highly regarded. I was thinking about getting an HRT iStreamer myself someday. There are other good options too, though in general I don't get too hung up on DACs as long as I have a decent one. Of course, I had that same method of thinking about headphones , then amps, and slowly where I set the bar for "a decent one" has been rising, lol


----------



## Typhoon859

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> I wasn't attacking you.


 
  Well obviously not.  I wasn't defending myself; I was defending an argument being made for certain things before personal impressions can be had.  I included myself just for the admission of making a mistake, not to be called out on it later in which case I in fact would be defending myself over the larger point, which would be unfortunate.  
   
  Like I thought was clear, point is and was, there is a case to be made prior to even owning the product.


----------



## Evshrug

Ok. But for the record, I wouldn't have brought you up or tried to make you look bad, I'm more interested in the amp. I was recommending this amp in large part in my review BECAUSE the bass boost was unique, and I'm not sure how much the new setting will change that effect. It may not be that effectively different after all, hoping it doesn't cause a 3rd hardware change to chase the goal of pleasing everybody.


----------



## MrScratch

I'm going to receive mine in the next couple of days, I'm sure I'll love it.


----------



## Parall3l

Well, my E12 is shipped out. Just waiting for it now. Will post impressions.


----------



## Typhoon859

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Ok. But for the record, I wouldn't have brought you up or tried to make you look bad, I'm more interested in the amp. I was recommending this amp in large part in my review BECAUSE the bass boost was unique, and I'm not sure how much the new setting will change that effect. It may not be that effectively different after all, hoping it doesn't cause a 3rd hardware change to chase the goal of pleasing everybody.


 
  Right.  Well that's what I assumed the reason for your motivation to say anything was.  Funny enough, my motivation, aside from the point, was similar in nature.  More specifically, it was the opposite of yours. I DO hope they change it back or to something otherwise similar, or better yet, integrate both or just sell multiple versions.
   
  And also for the record, my concern was an open one, or rather, it wasn't of specific relation to you.


----------



## Change is Good

Where can I currently buy one? Will any distributors start selling theses on Amazon, soon?


----------



## imackler

Quote: 





change is good said:


> Where can I currently buy one? Will any distributors start selling theses on Amazon, soon?


 
   
  Parts Express has them in stock. They're an authorized dealer: http://www.parts-express.com/term/fiio-e12?srch=fiio+e12


----------



## Evshrug

Imackler, weren't you one of the pre-order guys?


----------



## imackler

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Imackler, weren't you one of the pre-order guys?


 
  Yes I was!


----------



## Evshrug

Lol I remember you congratulating me for getting lucky to sneak in right at the end there


----------



## Dyaems

what do you guys use for charging the E12 to a wall outlet? i use that old apple usb wall charger and it makes the E12 really hot, i hope i didn't destroy it.
   
  also, any other usb cables work for charging? i tried it once with my SGS2 cable and it didnt charge, red light only stays lit and the E12 is not full


----------



## pngwn

I charge mine with my iPad charger. Seems like my unit is still doing all right. FiiO even pretty much says, "Use an iPod or iPad charger", though I suspect any USB adapter charger would work.


----------



## MrScratch

Probably a 5V-2A output wall wart like the iPad charger (5.1V and 2.1A output) is the best, safest and fastest way to recharge the batteries of the E12.


----------



## TwinCitiesJHawk

Long time reader, first time poster:
   
  Just purchased one at miccastore.com on Monday, and it will arrive Thursday.  I've been using an E11 for the past few months and decided to switch over to the e12.  Really hope the e12 is a true "upgrade" from the e11 when using my V-moda M100 with ipod touch 4g / iphone 5.


----------



## MrJoshua

Mine is on its way to me and should be here tomorrow!
   
  I'm excited to see it "in the metal" - I just hope it sounds good with my HD25s as that's what it'll mostly be used with while travelling.


----------



## KimChee

I got mine today from miccastore, I'll be using it as my desktop and headstage arrow alternative


----------



## waynes world

Quote: 





pngwn said:


> I charge mine with my iPad charger. Seems like my unit is still doing all right. FiiO even pretty much says, "Use an iPod or iPad charger", though I suspect any USB adapter charger would work.


 
   
  I was using my various USB chargers (ie for Samsung Galaxy S2), and it seemed to take a while to charge. I then tried using my Samsung Tab2 charger, and the red light pulses much more quickly and it charges quickest. I hope that's OK!


----------



## Oxide36

Does anybody know if the price on the E12 is expected to drop?


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





oxide36 said:


> Does anybody know if the price on the E12 is expected to drop?


 
   
  I seriously doubt FiiO can afford to sell it for less!


----------



## pngwn

Better ask James ;]


----------



## pngwn

Better ask James ;]


----------



## Dyaems

Quote: 





pngwn said:


> I charge mine with my iPad charger. Seems like my unit is still doing all right. FiiO even pretty much says, "Use an iPod or iPad charger", though I suspect any USB adapter charger would work.


 
   
  Quote: 





mrscratch said:


> Probably a 5V-2A output wall wart like the iPad charger (5.1V and 2.1A output) is the best, safest and fastest way to recharge the batteries of the E12.


 
   
  any idea what are the specs of the old ipod charger? the big one. im using that one but it gets nasty hot after an hour or two so i need to open my pc just to charge the E12 haha


----------



## bowei006

There is no set price for the devices. FiiO allows sellers to sell at whatever price. Obviously competition and fairness keeps everyone in the same region within approx 5% of each other.

If we follow current data on FiiO units and their prices from authorized dealers

Then we can conclude that

It takes around 2-3 years before a device's un-official aurhtoized price drops 10-20% of the recommended price from FiiO(as we can see from E10 Olympus and E7).

However, 1-2 year old units and older already very cheap units(E11, E6, E17) more or less do not drop much in their price.

So whilst there is flux of 5% drops maybe in the first year, the price is generally very steady until that device becomes what seems to be a legacy series(E7, E10) as I call them.

*Warning: These are just what I have personally observed and reflect nothing. Just opinion and personal analyzation. This data is also not very reliable as FiiO hasn't been around for too long.
*


----------



## MrJoshua

I just received the amp and have let it get up to room temperature before giving it a whirl...
   
  First impression is of a very high quality piece of hardware - It looks very classy and fits almost perfectly under my iPhone5 (with slim case).
   
  I have a question though - The 0dB gain position...  Does that do what it says on the tin, ie doesn't actually amplify the incoming signal?  I'm confused!
  With the switch in the 0dB position, the output is no louder than it is from the headphone socket of my iPhone (which I'm feeding the amp from).
   
  Obviously switching to the 16dB position amplifies the sound significantly, but I don't understand the purpose of the 0dB position if it's not actually amplifying the source - Doesn't that just make it an expensive attenuator (unless it's at full volume)?
   
  I realise that volume isn't everything, but clearly I'm missing something!


----------



## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





mrjoshua said:


> I just received the amp and have let it get up to room temperature before giving it a whirl...
> 
> First impression is of a very high quality piece of hardware - It looks very classy and fits almost perfectly under my iPhone5 (with slim case).
> 
> ...


 
   
  0dB gain means the output=input when the volume set to max. it is designed for high sensitivity IEMs.


----------



## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





waynes world said:


> I was using my various USB chargers (ie for Samsung Galaxy S2), and it seemed to take a while to charge. I then tried using my Samsung Tab2 charger, and the red light pulses much more quickly and it charges quickest. I hope that's OK!


 
   
  Yes, the best way to charge Mont Blanc is find a USB charger for any Pad, and it is OK if you have only a small charger , just need more time to charge it . so you don't need to carry a big charger around.
   
  I think it is very easy to get a USB power which output current is bigger than 500mA, and it is very safe to use a USB port in your PC or Laptop to charge it .


----------



## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





chris j said:


> I seriously doubt FiiO can afford to sell it for less!


 
   
  not, the margin room for FiiO and our dealers is not so high.


----------



## MrJoshua

Quote: 





mrjoshua said:


> I just received the amp and have let it get up to room temperature before giving it a whirl...
> 
> First impression is of a very high quality piece of hardware - It looks very classy and fits almost perfectly under my iPhone5 (with slim case).
> 
> ...


 
   
  OK, with my TripleFi 10's, 0dB is plenty loud and does seem to offer some volume increase over the iPhone output, but with my HD25-1-II's, the volume is about the same unless I switch to the 16dB setting.
   
  At the higher gain setting, the E12 drives my HD-650s well - They sound really nice together actually.
   
  Comparing the E12 (BB off) with the Voyager (Contour off)...  The E12 has a lot more top-end sparkle - Makes the Voyager sound heavily veiled, but I suspect the Voyager is possibly just more flat.
  With Contour on, the Voyager sounds more fun and the bass has more punchy impact than the E12 with BB on, but the E12 has more sub-bass grunt.
   
  Overall though, my first hour with this amp is very positive - It'll be interesting to hear if it changes as it burns in.


----------



## MrJoshua

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> 0dB gain means the output=input when the volume set to max. it is designed for high sensitivity IEMs.


 
   
  What's the benefit then?  Forgetting LODs for a minute (and therefore the increased SQ), is it just that more current is available to the low impedance IEM than if driving them straight out of the headphone socket of the source?


----------



## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





mrjoshua said:


> What's the benefit then?  Forgetting LODs for a minute (and therefore the increased SQ), is it just that more current is available to the low impedance IEM than if driving them straight out of the headphone socket of the source?


 
   
  yes, an amp can drive the IEMs better even the volume is the same, as we tested, the iPod Classic also have 22 output impedance, and the frequency response changed when the IEMs connected to the headphone out but it is keep flat when it connect to the headphone out of an decent amp


----------



## MrJoshua

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> yes, an amp can drive the IEMs better even the volume is the same, as we tested, the iPod Classic also have 22 output impedance, and the frequency response changed when the IEMs connected to the headphone out but it is keep flat when it connect to the headphone out of an decent amp


 
  Thanks for the explanation - I'm listening to the amp now and it sounds very nice with some modern Drum & Bass


----------



## MrScratch

Oh wow. It packs quite a punch when that little neat switch gets activated. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  I was listening to _U.K. Girls (Physical)_ from the album _Felt Mountain_ and after that... Well, I had to take a listen to _Around the World_. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



_One in a Million_ by DatA and _Can't Get You Out of My Head_ sounded awesome, while it added some earth-shaking bass to _Restless_ by UNKLE.
   
  Yep, it was a fun out-of-the-box listening! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
   
  I might be mad since I enjoyed the bass boost more with a better balanced pair of cans instead of the bass-heavy ones, I've tested the MMMs against the h/k CLs and I must say the latter sounded more engaging.
   
   
  I didn't have the time to feed my X1s with my new baby, however I'm willing to take some time and have some fun listening sessions with the iMac->E17+L7->E12->X1 combo in the next days, too! ^^
   
   
  Quote: 





dyaems said:


> any idea what are the specs of the old ipod charger? the big one. im using that one but it gets nasty hot after an hour or two so i need to open my pc just to charge the E12 haha


 
   
  How "old" is it? The iPod chargers I've seen in the last couple of years have a 5V DC 1A output (same as an iPhone charger) which means they are as good as iPad chargers but they'll take longer to fill the battery of your E12.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





mrjoshua said:


> I just received the amp and have let it get up to room temperature before giving it a whirl...
> 
> First impression is of a very high quality piece of hardware - It looks very classy and fits almost perfectly under my iPhone5 (with slim case).
> 
> ...


 
   
  More output current, baby!
  And lower output impedance!


----------



## MrJoshua

Quote: 





chris j said:


> More output current, baby!
> And lower output impedance!


 
  Thanks Chris - Got it now 
   
  I'm really impressed with this amp - It's definitely a winner!


----------



## cyh03176

received e12 in uk yesterday and my hd650 sounds thicker now. bass has more substance, mid is more forward and high is relaxing. it is a good amp.
   
  bass boost on, crossfeed off and gain off


----------



## Dyaems

Quote: 





mrscratch said:


> Oh wow. It packs quite a punch when that little neat switch gets activated.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
   
  the big ones, like the one with ipod video 5th gen or maybe older


----------



## Change is Good

E12 is up for sale on Amazon my GMART Global. Are they a legitimate distributor?
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00B6QXWIY/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A1UG27DD7KR2HI
   
  Edit: I ask because I'd rather purchase from Amazon even if it's $10 more. You can't go wrong with their return policy being that it's fulfilled by Amazon.


----------



## bowei006

change is good said:


> E12 is up for sale on Amazon my GMART Global. Are they a legitimate distributor?
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00B6QXWIY/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A1UG27DD7KR2HI
> 
> 
> ...


No they are not.

Micca (TekFX)
Parts express
Headroom
Hifiman
JDS LAbs
J and R
Think Geek

are the mains ones that sell FiiO(there are like 10 more but they didn't seem to be as big named sellers as these)

Micca has free shipping and good warranty


----------



## cyh03176

Quote: 





change is good said:


> E12 is up for sale on Amazon my GMART Global. Are they a legitimate distributor?
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00B6QXWIY/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A1UG27DD7KR2HI
> 
> Edit: I ask because I'd rather purchase from Amazon even if it's $10 more. You can't go wrong with their return policy being that it's fulfilled by Amazon.


 
   
  seems legit. fiio was released in the uk on 2nd April and I just got mine yesterday.


----------



## Change is Good

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> No they are not.
> 
> Micca (TekFX)
> Parts express
> ...


 
  Bummer 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  I was hoping they were because like I said... I'd rather purchase from Amazon. I might just give it a shot, anyways. I can always just check the serial number on the Fiio website. If it's not legit, then I just return it without having to pay for return shipping.


----------



## bowei006

change is good said:


> Bummer
> 
> I was hoping they were because like I said... I'd rather purchase from Amazon. I might just give it a shot, anyways. I can always just check the serial number on the Fiio website. If it's not legit, then I just return it without having to pay for shipping.


There are very few fake FiiO's

They most likely purchased them somehow from somewhere and are selling them.

They just aren't authorized.


----------



## Change is Good

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> There are very few fake FiiO's
> 
> They most likely purchased them somehow from somewhere and are selling them.
> 
> They just aren't authorized.


 
  Great news, then 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Thanks! I'll be purchasing one, soon...


----------



## miceblue

cyh03176 said:


> received e12 in uk yesterday and my hd650 sounds thicker now. bass has more substance, mid is more forward and high is relaxing. it is a good amp.
> 
> bass boost on, crossfeed off and gain off




People often don't state this in their impressions. What are you comparing the HD650's sound to with your E12 impressions?


----------



## cyh03176

Quote: 





miceblue said:


> People often don't state this in their impressions. What are you comparing the HD650's sound to with your E12 impressions?


 
  as i said this is my first amp, so i compared it to Asus G53 (gaming laptop) and iPod Video 30gb. >.> but they forgot to mail me L3 cable along, so I will get it later today. then i will compare it before and after amp from iPod.
   
  edited: because i didn't have LOD yet, so when amp using 3.5mm-3.5mm the sound signature is same as describe but the separation is... lets say there is no separation


----------



## MrScratch

Quote: 





dyaems said:


> the big ones, like the one with ipod video 5th gen or maybe older


 
   
  On the back/bottom of the unit you should see the output voltage/current specs. Anything that outputs 5V (+/- 5%) with at least 500mA should be fine.


----------



## waynes world

Quote: 





mrscratch said:


> On the back/bottom of the unit you should see the output voltage/current specs. Anything that outputs 5V (+/- 5%) with at least 500mA should be fine.


 
   
  Thanks. The print was so tiny on my Samsung usb chargers, that I had to take macro shots and enlarge them to see that info. What I have:
   
  - Samsung Galaxy Tab2 charger: 5V 2A
  - Samsung Galaxy S2 charger: 5V 1A
  - cheapo ebay charger: 5.2V 800mA
   
  The 5V 2A chargers way faster than the other.


----------



## Evshrug

Quote: 





change is good said:


> Bummer
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Micca is a seller on Amazon. Some of the others may be, as well.


----------



## cyh03176

received the L3 cable today, and the sound comes to live!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 this is a great product, fiio!


----------



## Dyaems

Quote: 





mrscratch said:


> On the back/bottom of the unit you should see the output voltage/current specs. Anything that outputs 5V (+/- 5%) with at least 500mA should be fine.


 
   
  its already scratched off xD the charger is *really *old. i searched the net abit and i think this is the one that i have at home
   
  http://store.apple.com/us/product/MD836LL/A/apple-12w-usb-power-adapter?afid=p219|GOUS&cid=AOS-US-KWG-PLA


----------



## Vylen

Got my E12 down under in Australia from Noisy Motel today. Just picked it up from the post office and am really enjoying it.
   
  It's quite leaps and bounds over the E11. I don't notice any white noise and the bass adds quite that extra thump.
   
  It's also just nice to be able to use it while charging, heh.
   
  Using it with Fisher Audio FA-003's, iPod Touch 4th Gen.


----------



## MrScratch

dyaems said:


> its already scratched off xD the charger is *really* old. i searched the net abit and i think this is the one that i have at home
> 
> http://store.apple.com/us/product/MD836LL/A/apple-12w-usb-power-adapter?afid=p219|GOUS&cid=AOS-US-KWG-PLA




That's the new 12W charger bundled with the iPad Retina (iPad 4), a revised version of the 10W charger shipped with the New iPad (iPad 3). They do look the same.



You may find old iPod chargers and some iPhone chargers with the same shell (and a lower wattage). These power adapters won't damage the E12. I really don't know if a 12V or 13V power supply can damage the E12.  I've never seen an electrical appliance that can adjust the input voltage requirements automatically depending on the power supply in use (it should be noted that the E12 should be fed with a 14V power adapter).

I'm really starting to wonder what kind of power adapter it is lol. I've found infos about some even older and bulkier power supplies which had a 13V/650mA output but those things used firewire ports instead of USB. 





Anyway, I'm really enjoying the E12 paired with the E17 and my X1s. This combo sounds a tad darker than my ordinary desktop rig (Bifrost + G109 + X1), as it should be expected. I'm listening to _Audio, Video, Disco_ and I really like it! ^^


----------



## Change is Good

I really want one of these. Just a few more weeks until I can get this and the HRT MS II for my laptop setup. I am waiting ever so patiently


----------



## stakarVN

Just received mine today from HDPHNS Netherlands, I live in Belgium.
   
  This was the sound I was hoping for and I got it right from the start.  Potent, authoritative, oodles of reserve power.  And I've only just started using it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The amount of bass that gets added by using the boost switch is like the slice of pie you take after a big meal,  not too much but just enough.  I like the level of detail this amp is showing me in the music that I'm hearing.  This is only my second amp, my first being a cheap chinese design with "Yours Audio Dreams" written on the back.  They even sold it to me without the original high-end opamp inside, I had to solder that one in myself.  Not so for the E12 : It does what it says on the can.  
   
  The tick of that tiny relay a second or so after turning the volume up is so cute it sends me over the moon.  It makes me love engineers who know what they are doing.  They choose to tighten that screw on the volume knop so it takes effort to turn it.  They make sure the speed of the flashing of the charge light informs you of the amounts of juice you're feeding your precious.  And best of all, they steal pieces of heaven which the E12 shoots straight into your ears.
   
  Fiio, thanks for the past couple of hours and everything to come.


----------



## canikickit1

Anyone want to do a Headstage Arrow vs E12?


----------



## Stoney

Sure, all I need is a loaner E12.


----------



## Chris J

mrscratch said:


> You may find old iPod chargers and some iPhone chargers with the same shell (and a lower wattage). These power adapters won't damage the E12. I really don't know if a 12V or 13V power supply can damage the E12.  I've never seen an electrical appliance that can adjust the input voltage requirements automatically depending on the power supply in use (it should be noted that the E12 should be fed with a 14V power adapter).
> 
> I'm really starting to wonder what kind of power adapter it is lol. I've found infos about some even older and bulkier power supplies which had a 13V/650mA output but those things used firewire ports instead of USB.
> ^^




Only use a charger that OUTPUTS 5 VOLTS.

Do Not use a charger that outputs 12 Volts, manual states that you use a 5 Volt charger.
Unless you want to damage your E12?

BTW,
I picked up an E12 from The Headfoneshop yesterday. 
Haven't listened to it yet.
My E12 is charging right now...... from a 5 Volt Apple charger, of course!


----------



## MrScratch

chris j said:


> Only use a charger that OUTPUTS 5 VOLTS.




If you read the previous posts you'll see we already know that. The recent iPod/iPad/iPhone chargers output 5V (up to 5.2V on the most recent 12W power adapters). 

I am still wondering what kind of power adapter Dyaems owns, I'm not sure about its output voltage.


----------



## Dyaems

Quote: 





mrscratch said:


> If you read the previous posts you'll see we already know that. The recent iPod/iPad/iPhone chargers output 5V (up to 5.2V on the most recent 12W power adapters).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  yeah i checked my adapter and the specs are already scratched off, ill take a pic when i get back at home. i also have that ipod usb cable where the lod has a locking mechanism... its old, i say!
   
   
  Quote: 





canikickit1 said:


> Anyone want to do a Headstage Arrow vs E12?


 
   
  i can try... but if i can compare the E12 and the arrow, and the arrow is only based from what i recall, tonally, the E12 is more balanced, bigger soundstage, than the midcentric and soundstage-collapsing headstage arrow. feature-wise and size, the arrow wins hands-down.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





mrscratch said:


> If you read the previous posts you'll see we already know that. The recent iPod/iPad/iPhone chargers output 5V (up to 5.2V on the most recent 12W power adapters).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Your post is really confusing.................you contradict yourself.


----------



## Dyaems

heres my ancient charger and usb cable


----------



## MrScratch

@Chris J: Yeah, I'll blame it on the iPad. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  What I wanted to say was that recent power adapters follow the 5V output standard while Dyaems probably owned a 12V/13V output charger like the old iPod dock-to-firewire chargers (Probably a 12V power adapter will damage the E12, however I'm not sure). The E12 can be powered either via 5V DC output and 14V DC output power supplies.
   
  Anyway, after some research I'm quite sure Dyaems' power adapter is the A1102 model.
   
  
   
  5V DC 1A. There should be no problem at all!


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





mrscratch said:


> @Chris J: Yeah, I'll blame it on the iPad.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Let's just agree that I don't think anyone should try experimenting with E12 and 12V, 13V or 14V output chargers!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  It may let the magic smoke out of your E12!


----------



## Magihyren

is this worth getting if you already have an E11?


----------



## Stoney

Quote: 





dyaems said:


> if i can compare the E12 and the arrow, and the arrow is only based from what i recall, tonally, the E12 is more balanced, bigger soundstage, than the midcentric and soundstage-collapsing headstage arrow. feature-wise and size, the arrow wins hands-down.


 
   
  I don't follow.  I don't have an E12, but the Arrow is an amazing amp in terms of making instruments sound "whole" and 3D, as opposed to some amps that sound "hi-fi" with highs that seem dismembered from the midrange, or at least a tendency to sound uncomfortable compared to the Arrow.
   
  The Arrow sound does depend on the gain setting, and on headphone impedance, so if you test, use more than one... I used 47ohm PFE 232 and 600ohm HD650.  The gain setting for these makes a huge difference, which is common if the gain is changed by changing loop feedback, and if output impedance (which changes with feedback) is not low enough such that gain changes don't cause output gain-related variations.  
   
  In my tests, the middle gain setting sounds more full in the midrange than the low gain setting.  Two points: the midrange sound more realistic, not just more full.  And, the treble is more realistic, less emphasized, with the middle gain setting.  That is the only one I use.  
   
  Comparing the Arrow with E17, the only FiiO that I have, shows it to be far superior in high-end realism, although the E17 is more hi-fi in detail retrieval but in a false way that grates over time.  (The DAC in the E17 is pretty good though.)


----------



## Dyaems

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *MrScratch* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> _-snipped some parts-_
> 
> ...


 
   
  thanks bro! although im a bit worried that the E12 gets too hot after an hour or two of charging when i first tried charging it, on a 220v outlet so i'll just use my pc to charge it.
   
  Quote: 





magihyren said:


> is this worth getting if you already have an E11?


 
   
  they both sound different and if you are somewhat of a basshead that needs a bass boost similar to an E11, stay away from the E12. the E12 is sounds much cleaner than an E11 (or E17) though.
   
  Quote: 





stoney said:


> I don't follow.  I don't have an E12, but the Arrow is an amazing amp in terms of making instruments sound "whole" and 3D, as opposed to some amps that sound "hi-fi" with highs that seem dismembered from the midrange, or at least a tendency to sound uncomfortable compared to the Arrow.
> 
> The Arrow sound does depend on the gain setting, and on headphone impedance, so if you test, use more than one... I used 47ohm PFE 232 and 600ohm HD650.  The gain setting for these makes a huge difference, which is common if the gain is changed by changing loop feedback, and if output impedance (which changes with feedback) is not low enough such that gain changes don't cause output gain-related variations.
> 
> ...


 
   
  E12 trumps all over the E17's amp section, and everyone who owned an E17 during our meets said that when comparing the E12 and E17. as for the arrow, we have 4 owners of arrow 4g here with different kinds of sources, other portable amps, and headphones (we can also add different cables for those who believe in cables) and we all agree that one thing that the arrow is "failing", its conjested/narrow sounding. even on low gain with all switches set to OFF/0/1. increasing gain leads to what? hiss, more conjestion, and it will also make the music have more "energy" or "lively"
   
  i also want to mention that i also posted my short impression on the arrow 4g thread a few pages back. maybe you dont want to see the word "conjested" as it looks like a negative word, so ill replace it by the word " too intimate" 
   
  you will possibly say something like "we all hear differently", yes its true, but my impressions will surely be "stronger" as it is backed up by alot of people who _tried and heard during meets/minimeets_, not by just _reading reviews in the threads_ here.
   
  lastly, you should buy an E12 and compare it yourself. =)
   
  P.S. not sure if you really own an HD650 as the hd650 only has 300 ohms, so ill correct that for you 
   
   
  edit: for multiquote


----------



## Stoney

Quote: 





> P.S. not sure if you really own an HD650 as the hd650 only has 300 ohms, so ill correct that for you






    
  My mistake; I used a lot of 600ohm equipment back in my laboratory days (JPL Physical Acoustics and Medical Device Acoustics), so I mix it up with 300 sometimes.  Also, the chemotherapy drugs are wrecking my memory and focus.  (I use my portable rigs during chemo and recovering from it, and recovering from surgeries.)
   
  Quote:


dyaems said:


> E12 trumps all over the E17's amp section, and everyone who owned an E17 during our meets said that when comparing the E12 and E17.


 
   
  I'm glad the E12 is winning over converts. But better than the Arrow?  Perhaps... I hope to read enough insights to glean how, in what ways... keep lots of good adjectives coming!
   
  If someone knows of a comparison in-depth of the sound vs the Arrow, please point me to it. Perhaps I missed one in my search and hundreds of bookmarks. 
   
  (I'm very good at inferring sound if I am given enough reviewers and adjectives and equipment, even if others don't like it, as long as they spell out what they observe... that's a useful review, not thumbs up or down.  My favorite movie reviewers can help me decide that I'd like a movie even if they didn't because they can communicate observations well.)  
   
   Quote: 





dyaems said:


> i also want to mention that i also posted my short impression on the arrow 4g thread a few pages back. maybe you dont want to see the word "conjested" as it looks like a negative word, so ill replace it by the word " too intimate"
> 
> you will possibly say something like "we all hear differently", yes its true, but my impressions will surely be "stronger" as it is backed up by alot of people who _tried and heard during meets/minimeets_, not by just _reading reviews in the threads_ here.






   
  As for the terms we use to describe the Arrow, I don't think we mean what the other thinks it means. 
   
  The results I wrote above for the Arrow at different gain settings were indeed reproducible and valid (and I'm not looking for agreement—I have enough experience professionally that I don't consider "voting" useful).  Not about being right, but about being useful... If I wrote the same that everyone else focused on, it would not help; so I shine light in a different area of performance.
   
  If you know about amp design, specifically gain as a function of local or global feedback in amps, then you will recognize why it seems pretty understantable that transient response and frequency balance of the Arrow is indeed different at different gains but the SAME volume.  
   
  To your speculation, there was no change in "hiss" or "energy" or "liveliness" due to gain changes to speak of (seems like you are guessing).  Even if so, I set that aside for the moment (all gains work for my equipment just fine anyway).   
   
  You may need to be reminded that "congestion" in English audio-speak is not synonymous with "too inimate" in any respect. "Congestion" in my reviewing and reading means one of these: lack of clarity or hearing through to details; possible intermodulation or transient distortion; some type of nonlinear error; a thickening of the sound.  "Too intimate" makes sense to my ear about the Arrow—midrange is a bit forward, but could be linear error (frequency response).  Like someone singing in your ear rather than a normal distance.  But this complements my Audeo 232 well, and my HD650 (modified) well enough.  
   
  Thankfully the Arrow is different from the E17's response which is a bit sterile and bleaches out the wholeness and tone a voice or instrument slightly.  There is some hash and edginess too.  (I tested it along with many others today, including the Meridian new version, which I have on at the moment, and the LCD3 with a new Teac headphone amp that has adjustable damping factor; but that is an interesting story for another page).
   
  There is no single good word for the uncanny sense of presence, but I noted the language in this review of a home preamp as similar to what I mean to write (but not to such a degree as this review).  http://dagogo.com/shindo-aurieges-l-tube-preamplifier-review
   
  I'm not claiming the Arrow is perfect, but it does right the key things that matter most to me at such a low price. I do hope there are others, but I've read a lot of reviews and not seen any candidates for my needs, other than perhaps the E12 which is much cheaper.  (PS: I missed the latest meet in the San Francisco area lately but was at a previous time).  So asking about the E12 or better still about amps in the $300-500 range is more my interest, come to think of it.  
   
  The Arrow is very slim and works well to give me auditory pleasure, so I'm not in a hurry to spend.  
   
  Anyway, enough running on as I can do at this hour as meds wear off!


----------



## kob12

I noticed the same thing in fiio e11 on sennheiser ie80 & iriver s100 , bass boost and gain makes music more congested but tiny tiny bit .. soundstage is a lil bit smaller , difference is so small that you have to use your true audiophile senses to notice that but it is . So I need help now ..  how e12 can handle in terms of soundstage vs e11 ??


----------



## Stoney

Are you guys uniformly using "congested" to mean smaller soundstage?  
  Silly me, I just say "smaller soundstage."


----------



## Bill-P

Personally, I think "congested" is rather the opposite of "clear separation", which means things sound bunched up and less distinct.
   
  And to me, "Small soundstage" means either less left-right separation, or less depth to the sound. Compared to some other amps in the same league ($200 and below), I can say E12 is behind C421 and C&C BH when it comes to soundstage. Specifically because left-right separation isn't very wide. Depth is very good on E12, though, and it conveys very good mental image of the sound.


----------



## waynes world

Quote: 





bill-p said:


> Personally, I think "congested" is rather the opposite of "clear separation", which means things sound bunched up and less distinct.
> 
> And to me, "Small soundstage" means either less left-right separation, or less depth to the sound. Compared to some other amps in the same league ($200 and below), I can say E12 is behind C421 and C&C BH when it comes to soundstage. Specifically because left-right separation isn't very wide. Depth is very good on E12, though, and it conveys very good mental image of the sound.


 
   
  +1... I subscribe to your newsletter!


----------



## miceblue

To me, soundstage includes both width and depth (the concept of height is still an abstract idea to me).
   
  Width being how far the instruments are panned to the right and left in my head, depth being how far away sounds sound from my head.
   

  ^ left figure is for a deep and narrow soundstage, right figure is for a more reasonably-spaced soundstage in terms of depth and width (X indicates the listener)
   
   
  I often find the instrument separation to correlate with the size of the soundstage. The separation can be good with with a narrow, but deep soundstage and likewise for a wide, but shallow one as well.
   
   
  To me, the most natural-sounding soundstage has good depth and width, with clear instrument separation. From my experience with amps so far, they tend to alter the width of the soundstage more than the depth, but both can be affected.


----------



## Dyaems

answers in bold, others are snipped due to "too many scientific mumbo jumbo", i rather answer back in a simple manner, also snipped other parts since it is not really related and it is somewhat off topic
   
  Quote: 





stoney said:


> I'm glad the E12 is winning over converts. But better than the Arrow?  Perhaps... I hope to read enough insights to glean how, in what ways... keep lots of good adjectives coming!
> 
> *no comment, this will lead to gear bias if i answer it again*
> 
> ...


----------



## Stoney

Quote: 





dyaems said:


> *the arrow is good enough, i wouldn't give the E12 as an upgrade, but tonally the E12 sounds clearer for what i am hearing.  as i said, when it comes to features, i dont think the Arrow will be beaten by the E12, more like, most, if not, all portable amps there that can beat the arrow.*


 
   
  Thanks, this part is useful.  
   
  Otherwise, we seem to be talking past each other.  I am clear you didn't get my intent, and you are clear I didn't get yours.  
   
  Please try not to be a dick about it, and don't preach to me how to go about my own investigations... I ask what I ask, because that is what I want and need. My process is not up for votes.  Nor will I buy yet another amp or show up to a meet because someone doesn't get or answer a simple question. If you mind helping me out by repeating something you posted elsewhere, well... I do apologize if you find it annoying; but I'm not a head-fi addict; I have a lot to do that is more essential to me... which maybe you missed in my last message... My doctor... let's say he wants me to value each day that I have.       As for  "too many scientific mumbo jumbo", well... yes I can run on.  But I'm a scientist and write for like-minded folks. And given that we weren't understanding each other, I tried whether more words would help.  Silly me. 
   
  As for reviews, I myself have no problem writing or interpreting them (as the famous editor who offered me the top tech job can attest, or the major speaker manufacturer that said I wrote the best technical report of his technology.  I get paid for reviews and consultation....) But that doesn't mean that I don't sometimes TOTALLY misunderstand or miscommunicate at times!!  Talking back and forth is a lot easier than writing something that is perfectly clear.  Sorry....
   
  Cheers... I'll go back to browsing mode.


----------



## Dyaems

cool, good thing you stopped defending your favorite product. come back to this thread when you heard and compared the E12 with your arrow. you dont even need to buy one, you can just join a meet where someone actually has it. you definitely didnt read my post few days ago and just raged upon reading the word "congested" to the point that that i have to reword it again just to make clear. so much for a "scientist".
   
  "value each day you have," youre actually trying to hit alot of the users here, except me. sorry. i only read and reply to this forum if i have abit of a free time in the office, or during breaktime. outside the office, or at home, i never visit the forum at all =)
   
  and im also going back to lurking mode


----------



## Stoney

May I suggest you work on your reading comprehension in English? Point by point, you are really not getting it. But you don't know how far off you are.


----------



## pngwn




----------



## MrJoshua

Stoney - I hope you recover fully and quickly.  
   
  Best wishes from England.


----------



## Stoney

Thanks, pal!


----------



## ghostchili

V1 vs V2. If I order the E12 today will it be V2 for sure. I plan on ordering from SMICorp. Any info on a V3? I can wait and keep using my E17 if thats the case.


----------



## MrJoshua

Pretty sure if you buy new now, you'll get the V2. No idea about a V3... The V2 was only launched last week!

And in any case, I think it's more like Beta/Pre-Production vs Production, rather than V1/V2.


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





mrjoshua said:


> Pretty sure if you buy new now, you'll get the V2. No idea about a V3... The V2 was only launched last week!
> 
> And in any case, I think it's more like Beta/Pre-Production vs Production, rather than V1/V2.


 
  I'm not a guru. This is as I remember it.
   
  Yep. The 'beta' version was the version used as a testing ground. The E12, remember, didn't officially launch until a few weeks ago. The first ones sent out were the pre production units.
   
  The V2 consumer bass model version is thus the final design to make full world wide release.
   
  But none the less, its still easier to say V1 and V2.
   
  A V3 has never ever been mentioned as something being done.


----------



## ghostchili

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> I'm not a guru. This is as I remember it.
> 
> Yep. The 'beta' version was the version used as a testing ground. The E12, remember, didn't officially launch until a few weeks ago. The first ones sent out were the pre production units.
> 
> ...


 
  That makes sense, thanks for the explanation


----------



## Change is Good

I'm expecting my E12 to be delivered tomorrow along with an HRT MSII DAC for my laptop. I can't wait to see how this setup pairs with my Q701!


----------



## jacknight

anyone got the new bass version already? waiting for comparison between the new and old bass boost version


----------



## MrJoshua

Quote: 





jacknight said:


> anyone got the new bass version already? waiting for comparison between the new and old bass boost version


 
   
  I have a production version, but sadly no pre-production version to compare the bass boost to.
   
  I find I selectively use the bass boost function depending on which cans and music I'm listening to.  Sometimes it sounds great, other times it's really not required.
   
  It definitely boosts more than just the sub-bass frequencies though!


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





change is good said:


> I'm expecting my E12 to be delivered tomorrow along with an HRT MSII DAC for my laptop. I can't wait to see how this setup pairs with my Q701!


 
   
  Nice!
   
  I'm _very_ pleased with how the E12 works with my Q701s, great sound, more than enough power!
   
  The E12 also has no problems driving my 600 Ohm DT880s!
   
  BTW, I very rarely use the bass boost, I find it _*TOO MUCH*_ for most recordings.


----------



## miceblue

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Is your E12 the pre-release version, or the mass-release one?
   
  I don't know how it sounds with the E12, but the bass boost of the JDS Labs C5 does wonders for the new K 701 for gaming in my experience. Crysis Warhead, yay. XD


----------



## ghostchili

jacknight said:


> anyone got the new bass version already? waiting for comparison between the new and old bass boost version



I ordered mine yesterday from SIMCorp through Amazon and for some reason they overnighted it. It's charging now. It has a 16db boost switch so I think it's the V2. I only have the E17 and the EO9k to compare it to.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





miceblue said:


> Is your E12 the pre-release version, or the mass-release one?
> 
> I don't know how it sounds with the E12, but the bass boost of the JDS Labs C5 does wonders for the new K 701 for gaming in my experience. Crysis Warhead, yay. XD


 
   
  The mass release version, I just bought it last weekend.


----------



## Change is Good

I wanted to share what my first day impressions are... as I wrote this to someone in a PM.
   
  "This thing is AMAZING for it's size! It is exactly what I was looking for, portable wise. And it pairs up very well using the HRT MSII as it's DAC.
   
  I kind of got carried away with the bass boost at first. It is definitely a plus, but I think I prefer it off on most tracks. I'm not a basshead like I used to be, and I listen to Hip-Hop (go figure). But then again, the MSII gives the bass an extra kick so that may be why I prefer the boost off on the E12. Either way, I love it."


----------



## Vylen

The bass boost is fairly strong and I imagine it won't be so good for bass-centric headphones. Since I use them with the FA-003's which are fairly neutral, it works pretty well!


----------



## Change is Good

Posting pictures because I am in love with this


----------



## Hutnicks

Quote: 





walkmanrocks13 said:


> USPS mixup and mine arrived today (long story). Will need to send back the second one Amazon is sending on Tuesday. So far, a bit dark. Could be my phones/gear, not sure. Not using bass boost at all. But need to do more listening with my stuff. Also have the C&C BH and right now, I prefer it for a few reasons. But again, need to do more listening, burning, etc.


 
   
  This is of great interest to me. Please feed us a review of the C&C vs E12 when you can.


----------



## Bill-P

Quote: 





chris j said:


> The mass release version, I just bought it last weekend.


 
   
  I get the feeling the new bass boost won't do Fiio any favor. Sounds to me like it's just too much. Did you ever have a v1, by the way?


----------



## miceblue

Quote: 





bill-p said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Quote: 





chris j said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Chris J

bill-p said:


> I get the feeling the new bass boost won't do Fiio any favor. Sounds to me like it's just too much. Did you ever have a v1, by the way?




No, I've never heard "The Classic V1".
A shame, I would probably use a subtle boost like V1 quite a bit.


----------



## Bill-P

Quote: 





chris j said:


> No, I've never heard "The Classic V1".
> A shame, I would probably use a subtle boost like V1 quite a bit.


 
   
  Aww... and here I was thinking you've had one for a while.
   
  Yeah, the v1's bass boost is subtle, but with great control and authority. I'm not sure how the new one sounds like, but I know for a fact that I don't like any other amp that overdoes it compared to v1.


----------



## Hutnicks

Quote: 





bill-p said:


> Aww... and here I was thinking you've had one for a while.
> 
> Yeah, the v1's bass boost is subtle, but with great control and authority. I'm not sure how the new one sounds like, but I know for a fact that I don't like any other amp that overdoes it compared to v1.


 

 Here's a question for you. How does the V1 bass boost compare to the E11's?


----------



## Hutnicks

Quote: 





walkmanrocks13 said:


> Ok, will give it my best. Right now, with the Sony MDR-7550s and Comply Ts200 tips, the E12 is sounding better. I felt it dark, but so much depends on the genres, etc. I am using it with an iPod Classic 160GB, decent MP3 rips, 192-320. Springsteen's Thunder Road from Live 1975-85 sounds fine with the bass boost on, but the song has no bass to speak of. The body of the sound is increased with the BB. On other tracks, such as anything with real bass, BB off is preferred. But I may have been harsh on the E12 out of the box, it's sounding good. It also meshes well with my customs, dual BA drivers.
> 
> _*I may end up keeping both amps at this rate.*_


 
   
  That's how it starts
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  You cannot do flac's on the ipod, can you?  You really need lossless files for amp comparisons else it tends to favour the loudest (highest current amp) in this case I believe that would be the C&C


----------



## Hutnicks

Quote: 





walkmanrocks13 said:


> Well, I have ALAC rips as well as FLAC on my PC HD, so I can compare the amps using my desktop PC (using a Sabre DAC into each of the amps), so I can do an apples to apples re lossless with FLAC or ALAC. The reason I may keep both is to use one around the house (C&C) and one anchored to my PC. Or not. No rush as I have a 30-day MBG on Amazon for the E12.


 
   
  Look forward to the lossless comparison.

 The thing is, at these prices it's just too easy to keep em all 
   
  Swear to god they need to do a "Hoarders" episode just for audio freaks. We're worse than the NRA when it comes to "My Cold Dead Hands"


----------



## Hutnicks

Quote: 





walkmanrocks13 said:


> Funniest thing is, I sold the expensive Arrow 4G to "downsize" to the C&C BH and then the darn E12 came out. But I will be testing out both with lossless in the upcoming days.
> 
> *Hoarders indeed. If you only knew.*


 
   
  Oh I know, believe me I know


----------



## Bill-P

Quote: 





hutnicks said:


> Here's a question for you. How does the V1 bass boost compare to the E11's?


 
   
  I no longer have either, so please take this with a grain of salt, but... quantity-wise, E11 gives a lot.
   
  But quality-wise, E12 is ahead. Bass boost on v1 gives a subtle, more weight and body, kind of boost to bass. To me, that's closer to real audiophile bass than just adding more to the mesh.


----------



## Chris J

hutnicks said:


> Look forward to the lossless comparison.
> 
> 
> The thing is, at these prices it's just too easy to keep em all
> ...




Hmmmm...........
I just started selling off approx. half a dozen audio components I no longer use.

But I still can't get myself to throw out some old phono cartridges which are basically junk.....!
Don't ask me about my cable collection!


----------



## Hutnicks

Quote: 





bill-p said:


> I no longer have either, so please take this with a grain of salt, but... quantity-wise, E11 gives a lot.
> 
> But quality-wise, E12 is ahead. Bass boost on v1 gives a subtle, more weight and body, kind of boost to bass. To me, that's closer to real audiophile bass than just adding more to the mesh.


 
   
  This is probably a question for FIIO themselves. I was pondering whether they returned to the E11 BB circuitry for E12 V2 then. The user reports would seem to suggest so. With the E12 I find the boost is far too sensitive to the headphone itself. It works well on setting 1 on T20's while the same settings turn my earbuds to mud.


----------



## Evshrug

hutnicks said:


> That's how it starts
> 
> You cannot do flac's on the ipod, can you?  You really need lossless files for amp comparisons else it tends to favour the loudest (highest current amp) in this case I believe that would be the C&C



iPods cannot play FLAC files (at least without modding the software), but they can play Apple Lossless files.
Why do you think the C&C would be the higher current amp? FWIR, the C&C tends to use much less power (thus the longer battery life from a smaller battery). I also thought Voltage (in relation to a headphone's impedance and sensitivity) was the factor that contributed to making "the loudest amp."


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> iPods cannot play FLAC files (at least without modding the software), but they can play Apple Lossless files.
> Why do you think the C&C would be the higher current amp? FWIR, the C&C tends to use much less power (thus the longer battery life from a smaller battery). I also thought Voltage (in relation to a headphone's impedance and sensitivity) was the factor that contributed to making "the loudest amp."


 
   
  When you increase the volume control on an amp, you are driving the the headphones with more voltage.
  But the headphone amplifier has to be able to provide the current that the headphone will draw when driven by the voltage.
   
  It's complicated, isn't it?


----------



## Hutnicks

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> iPods cannot play FLAC files (at least without modding the software), but they can play Apple Lossless files.
> Why do you think the C&C would be the higher current amp? FWIR, the C&C tends to use much less power (thus the longer battery life from a smaller battery). I also thought Voltage (in relation to a headphone's impedance and sensitivity) was the factor that contributed to making "the loudest amp."


 

 ALAC will do in a pinch.
   
  I thought somewhere on here I had read the C&C was a 300mw amp (into 16 ohms I think).  I really really do not want to get into the nuts and bolts of it as the Objective Mafia will crawl all over me with their endless amounts of mathematical "proofs". Current is generally the larger factor. (Think capacitance discharge systems like tasers or ignition systems) 50,000 volts at 3mA wont kill you, 50,000 volts at 1A will


----------



## Evshrug

chris j said:


> When you increase the volume control on an amp, you are driving the the headphones with more voltage.
> But the headphone amplifier has to be able to provide the current that the headphone will draw when driven by the voltage.
> 
> It's complicated, isn't it?   :confused_face_2:



Yes. I usually stick to generalizations and try not to sound like an authority on the subject, lol. But would an amp's current remain constant (assuming a constant ohm load) as you turn up the volume, thus making the voltage the variable that changes volume within one amp circuit? Aka voltage drives headphone volume, more current drives a headphone... with more dynamic amplitude?



hutnicks said:


> ALAC will do in a pinch.
> 
> I thought somewhere on here I had read the C&C was a 300mw amp (into 16 ohms I think).  I really really do not want to get into the nuts and bolts of it as the Objective Mafia will crawl all over me with their endless amounts of mathematical "proofs". Current is generally the larger factor. (Think capacitance discharge systems like tasers or ignition systems) 50,000 volts at 3mA wont kill you, 50,000 volts at 1A will



Yes, well... what do the E12's stats list for current at the same load as a C&C? First page post...


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





hutnicks said:


> ALAC will do in a pinch.
> 
> I thought somewhere on here I had read the C&C was a 300mw amp (into 16 ohms I think).  I really really do not want to get into the nuts and bolts of it as the Objective Mafia will crawl all over me with their endless amounts of mathematical "proofs". Current is generally the larger factor. (Think capacitance discharge systems like tasers or ignition systems) 50,000 volts at 3mA wont kill you, 50,000 volts at 1A will


 
   
  The Objective mafia drive me nuts. too.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  That's why I try and avoid the Sound Science Fiction Forum.
  Too many outsized egos.
   
  Basically, to avoid clipping, you need enough voltage _*AND*_ enough current.
  As you know, Power = Voltage X Current.
   
  If you don't have enough current, then lots of voltage won't help you.
  OTOH
  If you don't have enough voltage, then lots of current won't help you either.
  It's like asking do I need more horsepower or more torque.
  Answer, it depends.
   
  relatively speaking:
  For low impedance headphones, a bit more current and a bit less voltage.
  For high impedance headphones, a bit more voltage .and a bit less current is necessary.
   
  And that's what I like about the E12, enough power for just about any headphone if you exclude Planars.
  But then who would use a Planar 'phone with a $125 amp?
   

 _*Propellorhead warning:*_
 http://www.head-fi.org/a/headphone-impedance


----------



## miceblue

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Yes yes we all know you love to mock the objetivists.
   
  The E12 is $125? Amazon has it going for $140, and the MSRP says $199. *confused*


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





miceblue said:


> Yes yes we all know you love to mock the objetivists.
> 
> The E12 is $125? Amazon has it going for $140, and the MSRP says $199. *confused*


 
  I bought my E12 at The Headfoneshop in Canada, eh.
   
  What's wrong with mocking The Objective Evangelists? A boy needs a hobby, doesn't he?


----------



## miceblue

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  I might buy an E12. I live in the USA and I would prefer the vendor to accept payment through PayPal. Does anyone have suggestions?
   
  People have been asking for a FiiO E12 versus JDS Labs C5 comparison and I guess I'm the only one who owns a C5 and is interested in it (or vice-versa). XD
   
  I would do the comparisons with a V-MODA M-100 and AKG K 701 (newer 8-bump headband version) with an ODAC.


----------



## Change is Good

Quote: 





miceblue said:


> I might buy an E12. I live in the USA and I would prefer the vendor to accept payment through PayPal. Does anyone have suggestions?
> 
> People have been asking for a FiiO E12 versus JDS Labs C5 comparison and I guess I'm the only one who owns a C5 and is interested in it (or vice-versa). XD


 
   
  I see E12s on ebay, but all are shipping from China and are all over $140. You're better off just ordering one from Amazon for that price. It will ship quicker plus you have the Amazon guarantee.
   
  Or you can just buy one directly from a distributor like Micca on their website for $130, I think.


----------



## Bill-P

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Yes. I usually stick to generalizations and try not to sound like an authority on the subject, lol. But would an amp's current remain constant (assuming a constant ohm load) as you turn up the volume, thus making the voltage the variable that changes volume within one amp circuit? Aka voltage drives headphone volume, more current drives a headphone... with more dynamic amplitude?
> Yes, well... what do the E12's stats list for current at the same load as a C&C? First page post...


 
   
  Nope. Both voltage and current have to scale with volume. Which one scales more depends a lot on the headphone, but in general, higher impedance headphones require more voltage, and lower impedance requires more current.
   
  When the amp has reached the maximum voltage/current it can deliver, and the load asks for more, then the power supply would veer into "unknown territory" and start pushing what it doesn't have. That's when clipping occurs... and that's why amps as powerful as the E12 (or even more powerful like the Schiit Magni, or Burson Audio Soloist and the likes...) exist.
   
  Anyway, as I recall, the E12 can push more than 1W through low impedance. C&C BH from my testing can barely push my relatively easy to drive Audio Technica ES10 without clipping (clipping would occur at high gain), so I doubt it has that much current driving capability.
   
  Lack of official specs also doesn't help here...


----------



## miceblue

Quote: 





change is good said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Hm, maybe I'll buy it from Micca then. Amazon's return policy is nice but I don't have a credit card and another audio purchase will upset the parents. >.>
   
  Okay I just made my purchase from Micca. I selected economy shipping so it'll be a while before I actually receive the unit. My wallet is going to kill me...
   
  I can always sell it to people here on Head-Fi too if I need to.


----------



## Hutnicks

Quote: 





chris j said:


> The Objective mafia drive me nuts. too.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Man you really are trying to get me lynched by the Objective Inquisitors aren't you? 
   
  There are those out there who have lost sight that science is just a metric.  In much the same way that the metric of a kilometer will tell you the distance from a to b quite accurately, but give you no information on what is there along the way, Objectivism misses the whole point of audio. Even the one who shall not be named does not go as far as his rabid offspring.
   
  Anyhow. I drive Yamaha YH-3 and Fostex T20RP's of the E11, and quite well at that. That is one of the things I am looking at in the 12 vs C&C race (and don't tell me to buy both, I need to move into a place with more space as it is, and it would cut into my tyre budget for the 12 bicycles on hand).


----------



## Mitchm

I just purchased the HD598 and was listening with plenty of volume from my 2009 MacBook and using Mog music service. I ordered the Fill0 e11 for them but before the Amp arrived I decided to order a refurbished HD650. So far I will return the HD 598 it was light  and comfortable but my un amped A900x was sounding a bit richer and fuller. So know I want to Amp or Amp/Dac the HD650  since I get so much volume out of my Mac book for the A900x as well as the HD 598 do you feel the E11 will be enough. Some how I'm wanting a portable amp because my Samsung 3 could use a little more push. My main concern is for the HD650 right now should I get the E11, E12, E07k/e9 combo. I noticed on some sites it said the E11 powers up to 300ohms and on others it said 150 ohms. Some say a portable is not good enough but it would be nice if it is possible for easy movement. Please let me know your thoughts of course an expensive tube amp will sound best, but how close can I get with the E11 or E12 to keep portable and simple if at all possible. Thanks for any help.


----------



## Change is Good

Quote: 





mitchm said:


> I just purchased the HD598 and was listening with plenty of volume from my 2009 MacBook and using Mog music service. I ordered the Fill0 e11 for them but before the Amp arrived I decided to order a refurbished HD650. So far I will return the HD 598 it was light  and comfortable but my un amped A900x was sounding a bit richer and fuller. So know I want to Amp or Amp/Dac the HD650  since I get so much volume out of my Mac book for the A900x as well as the HD 598 do you feel the E11 will be enough. Some how I'm wanting a portable amp because my Samsung 3 could use a little more push. My main concern is for the HD650 right now should I get the E11, E12, E07k/e9 combo. I noticed on some sites it said the E11 powers up to 300ohms and on others it said 150 ohms. Some say a portable is not good enough but it would be nice if it is possible for easy movement. Please let me know your thoughts of course an expensive tube amp will sound best, but how close can I get with the E11 or E12 to keep portable and simple if at all possible. Thanks for any help.


 
   
  Specs for E11 says up to 150 ohms
http://www.fiio.com.cn/products/index.aspx?ID=100000038781911&MenuID=105026001
   
  Specs for E12 says up to 300 ohms
http://www.fiio.com.cn/products/index.aspx?ID=100000038732625&MenuID=105026001


----------



## Mitchm

Quote: 





change is good said:


> Specs for E11 says up to 150 ohms
> http://www.fiio.com.cn/products/index.aspx?ID=100000038781911&MenuID=105026001
> 
> Specs for E12 says up to 300 ohms
> http://www.fiio.com.cn/products/index.aspx?ID=100000038732625&MenuID=105026001


 
  Thanks yes the Fii0 site does say that but I guess some of the store sites have it mixed. Does anyone have some experience with the E12 or 11 with the HD 650  that they would like to share?


----------



## Change is Good

Quote: 





mitchm said:


> Thanks yes the Fii0 site does say that but I guess some of the store sites have it mixed. Does anyone have some experience with the E12 or 11 with the HD 650  that they would like to share?


 
   
  I only have experience with the E17 (has the same amp as E11) and currently the E12... with only the Q701s, however. I find the E12 to have plenty of power to drive them but not with the E17.
  It's not the E11, so take this with a grain of salt


----------



## Evshrug

change is good said:


> Specs for E11 says up to 150 ohms
> http://www.fiio.com.cn/products/index.aspx?ID=100000038781911&MenuID=105026001
> 
> Specs for E12 says up to 300 ohms
> http://www.fiio.com.cn/products/index.aspx?ID=100000038732625&MenuID=105026001




Saying "up to X Ohms" is kinda misleading, that's like saying a car is faster because it can drive further. Basically, the E12 has like 3x the power of the E11, the E11 is about as powerful as the E17 and probably the C&C BN (but I bet the BN is at the bottom of the food chain among these three, but apparently it is a well-implemented design that sounds good... but the E12 will be a step up).


----------



## Change is Good

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Saying "up to X Ohms" is kinda misleading, that's like saying a car is faster because it can drive further. Basically, the E12 has like 3x the power of the E11, the E11 is about as powerful as the E17 and probably the C&C BN (but I bet the BN is at the bottom of the food chain among these three, but apparently it is a well-implemented design that sounds good... but the E12 will be a step up).


 
   
  Thanks for clearing that up for him. Trying to help the best I can...


----------



## miceblue

Did anyone do a real-world test of the battery life yet? I only seem to recall someone saying they hadn't charged their device in over a week, which seems kind of skeptical to me unless they had a super-charged Headstage Arrow 4G-like battery installed.


----------



## pngwn

No way their battery lasted a week unless they were only using it in an hour a day. I've charged mine up and run it down in about 9 hours.


----------



## Chris J

change is good said:


> Specs for E11 says up to 150 ohms
> http://www.fiio.com.cn/products/index.aspx?ID=100000038781911&MenuID=105026001
> 
> Specs for E12 says up to 300 ohms
> http://www.fiio.com.cn/products/index.aspx?ID=100000038732625&MenuID=105026001




I've used my E12 with my 600 Ohm DT880 headphones, the E12 has no problems driving this load.
Even the E17 works as a headphone amp as long as you don't listen uber loud.


----------



## Chris J

hutnicks said:


> Man you really are trying to get me lynched by the Objective Inquisitors aren't you?
> 
> There are those out there who have lost sight that science is just a metric.  In much the same way that the metric of a kilometer will tell you the distance from a to b quite accurately, but give you no information on what is there along the way, Objectivism misses the whole point of audio. Even the one who shall not be named does not go as far as his rabid offspring.
> 
> Anyhow. I drive Yamaha YH-3 and Fostex T20RP's of the E11, and quite well at that. That is one of the things I am looking at in the 12 vs C&C race (and don't tell me to buy both, I need to move into a place with more space as it is, and it would cut into my tyre budget for the 12 bicycles on hand).




You can name NWAVGuy in Head Fi.
But I wouldn't go so far as to post a link to any website he may have!

I used to participate in the Science Forum but just got sick of all the endless posturing and semantics and over inflated psuedo-scientific egos. :rolleyes:


----------



## bowei006

miceblue said:


> Yes yes we all know you love to mock the objetivists.
> 
> The E12 is $125? Amazon has it going for $140, and the MSRP says $199. *confused*


The MSRP(what FiiO suggests) i would remember to be $129

But they let their agents choose official price.

Supply, demand, and capitalizing on the product raises prices

The $199 msrp is b s.


----------



## Hutnicks

Quote: 





chris j said:


> You can name NWAVGuy in Head Fi.
> But I wouldn't go so far as to post a link to any website he may have!
> 
> I used to participate in the Science Forum but just got sick of all the endless posturing and semantics and over inflated psuedo-scientific egos.


 
   
  Thanks to the internet any Red Bull infused Dorito's addict can google his way to a pseudo PhD in physics. How did we ever get along without these people in the past?
   
  I'm interested in Miceblue's head to head with the C5 vs E12 comparison.


----------



## MrJoshua

walkmanrocks13 said:


> Decided to ship the E12 back to Amazon. To me, the E12 is a very good amp with only certain types of phones (analytical, neutral, even more tipped to treble). With bassy (not over-bassy), warm phones, the E12 just makes things warm and almost sounds veiled. This is not a criticism, but just my view. I had the Arrow 4G, and it had a nifty treble boost (2 levels). Of course, the Arrow costs $299 new, so not a fair comparison. I was choosing here between the E12 and the C&C BH ($99) and with my gear, the C&C came out on top over the E12. And I love the C&C BH's SF control.
> 
> I guess you could use EQ to bring more sparkle to the E12 with warm phones, but I don't use EQ with my sources (iPod Classic mainly via LOD).




This is interesting... I found the E12 added more sparkle to my HD650 than my Voyager... Certainly not more veiled.


----------



## Evshrug

change is good said:


> Thanks for clearing that up for him. Trying to help the best I can...



Hey no problem, not judging or saying you're wrong, just saying that a statement like "good with headphones up to X Ohms" only takes account for one part of the total picture, to the point where a marketing team can pull a statement like that out of the air but provide little real comparison with another manufacturer's product.



miceblue said:


> Did anyone do a real-world test of the battery life yet? I only seem to recall someone saying they hadn't charged their device in over a week, which seems kind of skeptical to me unless they had a super-charged Headstage Arrow 4G-like battery installed.



Uh, that was probably me, lol. I've never run through a full battery in a single listening session, nor kept a record how many hours I used mine before it needed charging. I typically do not listen to music more than an hour a day, I usually play videogames in 2 or 3 hour sessions (more or less), and I don't listen to headphones every day (4-5 days a week). In practical application, I could use my E12 for several days before it needs recharging, which usually works out to once a week. I understand my real-world use may not match other's, and it's possible that longer sessions may consume power faster than several short ones. I'm sorry, I think that in light of what I said in reply above, it would be more useful if I provided an hours figure, but right now I just don't have that data and I keep forgetting to keep track.


----------



## Bill-P

Quote: 





walkmanrocks13 said:


> I see another member named Bill-P (on a direct C&C BH vs. E12 thread) had both and agreed with my view, but that's of course not any universal truth, just opinion/ears.


 
   
  Yeah, I agree with you. E12 seems like it rolls off high frequencies. I've plugged it into far more headphones (thanks to the SF Bay area meet) to conclude that.
   
  A pair of headphone like... say... Mr. Speaker's Mad Dogs wouldn't do well with E12 even though ironically, I think E12 was made specifically for headphones like those. (low sensitivity, need more power)
   
  The Mad Dogs paired with E12 were far too closed in and dark even for my taste.


----------



## miceblue

Unboxing:





   
  Physical Impressions:

 E12's by-design analog potentiometer is hard to adjust and adjustments while in-pocket for mobile use (or even desktop) are difficult for me: in-short, too much effort needed to adjust volume and the volume knob leaves imprints on my fingers
 Volume knob while turning: power, region of no sound, channel imbalance region (~ 8:30 position), no channel imbalance region (~9 'o-clock position)
 The gain and crossfeed switches are impossible to adjust by-hand, but that was an intentional design
 There is background hiss at high-gain, and at high volumes (~1 'o-clock position) at low-gain
 Bass boost switch is nicely placed on the side
 Small distance between the input and output sockets might be a problem for larger and/or angled jacks
 The relay click is also a new feature to me (if I want to quickly use the E12, this might be a problem)
 Fairly large for a portable headphone amplifier in my experience
 Heavy weight (it almost feels as heavy as my Texas Instruments TI-84 graphing calculator with batteries installed)
 Input/output jacks are pretty tight
 A personal preference, but I don't like the bright blue LED power indicator. Blue light has the most energy of all visible light and hurts my eyes in the dark (I can't stand my Dell's blue LED power and disk activity indicators while computing in the dark).
 A reset button is on the bottom...I'm not sure why this would be needed
 Will do a real-world battery test soon
   
  Sonic Impressions:
  MacBook Pro Retina Display -> JDS Labs ODAC (Monoprice USB cable) -> FiiO L2 -> FiiO E12 -> AKG K 701 or V-MODA Crossfade M-100
   
  No audio enhancements, low gain:

 Smooth
 Slightly warm
 Decent soundstage
 Mids are sweet
 Mids are laid back
 Lacking detail in the upper-end
   
  Crossfeed on, low gain:

 Sounds sound behind me
 
 Sounds less dynamic
 Soundstage shrinks in width
   
  Bass boost on, low gain:

 Bass sounds kind of plasticky (does that even work for describing bass?)
 Sounds adds some nice weight
 Lowest bass notes are less affected than lower/mid-bass (more punch than rumble)
   
   
  Comparisons to C5:
  In short, I'd say the C5 is worth the price difference between the E12 ($60 USD).

 More pocket-friendly interface
 More portable form-factor
 More space for jacks on the front-plate
 Easier-to-use volume controls
 Deeper, larger "theater" bass boost [perhaps pre-mass-release E12 would have been like this]
 Larger soundstage with better instrument separation
 Closer in sound to my reference amp, Objective 2
 Clearer midrange
 More detail in the treble
 More fatiguing during long listening sessions
 No channel imbalance
 No noise on high-gain mode
   
   
  Overall, not bad. I haven't tried very many amps in the < $200 USD range, but the E12 isn't half-bad. It's definitely a step-up/upgrade from the amp in the E7 that I have. My one and only real issue is the volume control since I often adjust it depending on my music playing, background noise, different sensitivity headphones, etc. That volume knob is just...so inconvenient to me. >_<


----------



## bowei006

You get used to the volume knob.

------
Some say amps are magical creatures. Some
Say they are just pixy dust snake oil ground up devices.

We can agree with it. Vilify it, but we can not ignore it.

That they are indeed a bit magical

So here is to amps being in the most magical place on Earth.

(Yes, im at vacation in Disneyworld)


I would bring my P-H if I was on a longer stay.


----------



## Evshrug

Boweii,
Did you just watch that apple "Here's to the crazy ones" TV commercial?

Miceblue,
I personally think the power-on delay was implemented in response to ..."some people"... Totally flaming another manufacturer because it didn't have such a protection circuit. The E12 is more powerful than most portable amps, so while it's not necessary because I plug in my headphones after turning on an amp, it's nice to have the peace of mind.

Did I see in your video that the C5 has it's power switch on the bottom? I prefer the E12's power switch being part of the volume on the "top" of the amp, but to be honest it doesn't matter much because I'd assume you'd have the amp strapped to a music player which you'd take out of your pocket to turn on and pick your first song (and also I don't personally have any "on the go" situations anymore, when I'm out I'm usually driving for 12 minutes then working serving customers). 

E12 = pocketable, if only just, but that makes all the difference compared to the O2 as you showed (wow, I thought the O2 was a little big, but... that's about the same size as my desktop tube amp!). C5 is smaller yet but IMO they're both in the same size category of "pocketable."

I'm sorry to hear you're not a fan of the bass boost... usually boosts are like you described, which was why I anticipated and was pleased by the first-batch E12 I got. Best bass boost I've ever heard... But I think I sound like a broken record about that, so I'll stop.

Everything I've read about the C5 sounds like a winner, but IMO the E12 is a winner too. I'm personally sticking with the E12, I feel pretty satisfied. Thanks for the video and review, it thought it was really good! I'll go on YouTube and give it a thumbs up


----------



## miceblue

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Boweii,
> Did you just watch that apple "Here's to the crazy ones" TV commercial?
> 
> Miceblue,
> ...


 
  Yeah no I totally understand the purpose of the power relay circuit. To me it's a new concept since the amps I have don't have it by design. I still think Schiit Audio receives too much flack for that incident though. >.>
   
  Yes the C5 has the switch on the bottom. It's a personal preference of course, but I prefer the power switch separate from the volume controls. I was playing with the power/volume knob of the E12 and the power -> no audio -> channel imbalance -> no channel imbalance is kind of awkward to use if operated in the pocket (I can see myself accidentally powering the unit off when trying to reach a low volume level).  In my mobile arrangement, I place the power switch interface of the C5 towards the top of my iPhone, so the power controls of both units are "up there".
   
  Yup the E12 is definitely pocketable as well, but it's just larger in my pocket compared to the C5 and a godsend in size compared to the relatively massive O2, hahaha. To me, obviously not to the same extent, it's feels like the difference between an iPhone 4+ and a Samsung Galaxy S phone in my pocket in terms of size. The E12 is definitely heavier too, so when it's in my pocket and I'm moving around, I can feel it's weight (don't go running with this in you pocket XD).
   
  I think the bass boost is fine for most people, but as was discussed earlier, people here would probably appreciate the deeper bass boost more. The bass boost of the E12 kind of reminds me of that of the E7 but cleaner; it's there but it doesn't quite sound natural to me. The C5's bass boost is more like a medium-level ZO2 bass boost, which if you haven't tried is a pretty satisfactory sub-woofer amp.
   
  For all intensive purposes, I do think the E12 is a good amp. For $130 USD, it's great, from my experience, in terms of sound, features, and appearance. A few things I do like about the E12 over the C5 is the finish of the case and the bundled accessories. C5 just comes with rubber feet and a USB cable, E12 has rubber feet, USB cable, 2x2-sizes of silicone bands, interconnect cable, soft/fuzzy carrying case (though it has already attracted a bunch of dust). The C5's enclosure is kind of a grainy-smooth finish like a chalkboard (it actually does attract fingernail marks and whatnot); the E12's is a very nice, shallow-brushed metal that is a slight fingerprint magnet. The weight of the E12 makes it feel like a really sturdy and solid device, the lighter C5 feels slightly lacking (though there is a lot of space in the case itself since you can re-arrange the circuit board orientation in the case).


----------



## Evshrug

All fair points 
I suppose one other thing the separate power switch has going for it is the potential for the amp to "remember" what volume it was set at. Kinesthetically and subjectively though, I love analogue knobs (yes I know the channel balance benefits of digital volume, also that's probably a large factor in the $$ difference), and the two times I did use my E12 portably in-pocket with my classic iPod, I had the iPod facing "out" in my pocket so I could push the physical controls through the pocket cloth and switch on my E12 and adjust volume, all without removing from my pocket. In fact I may go do that now, as my mum offered some cash to me if I did some gardening for her.

I think the whole Schiit-Storm thing was an embarrassing moment for the community... Some helpful suggestions could've been presented in a much more professional or at least non-inflammatory way, but the point I'm making is the relay may be a ripple-effect in response to that event, and avoid bad community branding from a few unprofessional critics. That's why I bothered tallying the number of people who were actually clamoring for a change to the bass boost in this thread, and replied to the more incisive critics: I don't think it was fair, nor do I believe it would do the most good for the most equipment/people. I'm willing to bet that several of the self-declared bassheads who demanded the change STILL didn't buy the new redesigned-for-them version anyway.

Sorry to rant. Short story is, I think the available E12 is a good amp, not going to set the world on fire BUT the amount of power available for a portable form factor makes it unique, and previously the bass boost was a nice bonus that was also unique. Portable + Output Power is the E12's niché, while others focus on battery life or digital potentiometer (like in the C5). Cheers!


----------



## bowei006

evshrug said:


> Boweii,
> Did you just watch that apple "Here's to the crazy ones" TV commercial?




Ummm. *cough cough*

Considering im at disney. It should be a crime not to have 

(Steve Jobs was the largest (single person) stock holder at disney)


----------



## Evshrug

*OT WARNING!!!*
Yes, he was. For a brief, shining moment, I thought perhaps he might take over from Eisner, but then sadly he passed away. The thing that made Jobs so insanely great, though, was that he surrounded himself with brilliant, talented people (and yeah, he definitely had an ego), and the bright side is that FWIR his cinematic leader from Pixar, John Lassiter [sic?], is now at the helm of Disney now. It's hard to deny the storytelling quality of pretty much all the Pixar films. I can't help but feel amused at the situation: Disney may have bought Pixar, but in many ways Pixar absorbed Disney. I'm actually kind of excited to see what the new Star Wars films will be like, maybe that sense of wonder and powerful themes from the original trilogy (particularly Empire and Return) will be back, the excitement in the films directed by Lucas sadly fades after a while.
Apple commercial that Boweii & I are referring to: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rwsuXHA7RA&sns=em

... And now, I return you to your regular discussion about headphone amps and a growing electronics company called FiiO, that believes in flying, or at least in the sensation as it tries to create that for music lovers at an affordable price. Yay!


----------



## miceblue

Hm, FiiO E12 + V-MODA Crossfade M-100 = ultimate combo for listening to poorly mastered tracks or songs affected by the Loudness War. Perhaps it was a good design to have "rolled-off" treble for the E12 for the average consumer.
   




   
   
   
  Yeah in-pocket controls with the E12 is awkward since the thing is so large in my pocket and it requires me to use ≥ 2 fingers to operate the potentiometer. There's no space in my pocket for all of this stuff. XD
   
  Also, I recorded this battery life with nothing connected to it and at a volume level just past the channel imbalance region (~9 'o-clock position), no bass boost, low gain, no crossfeed:
  This time is an over-estimate since I fell asleep and when I woke up, it was out of juice.


----------



## pngwn

It most definitely isn't close to 16hours, more like 10, IME. Unless perhaps the v2 battery is for some reason better than v1


----------



## miceblue

Quote: 





pngwn said:


> It most definitely isn't close to 16hours, more like 10, IME. Unless perhaps the v2 battery is for some reason better than v1


 
  Well yeah, this is in the best-case scenario with nothing plugged-in to it.
   
  I'll do a more realistic test this weekend (iPhone 4S -> FiiO L3 -> FiiO E12 -> V-MODA Crossfade M-100).


----------



## bowei006

I find I get 10-13 hours. 

0 gain and used with iem


----------



## pngwn

I'll try to run mine down from full charge this weekend, too. Mines on almost constantly, which makes me with it had the BH's battery, but at least it can play while charging.


----------



## Evshrug

pngwn said:


> Mine's on almost constantly



Surely you aren't listening for the entire length of the battery life?? Ok, I understand it takes all kinds to make the world go around, but that much music WILL damage your hearing. Unless you just have stuff playing when you're not around to hear it, like part of a PA system or something? Anyway, you at least have the benefit of a predictable point in your day when the battery runs out, and you'll know about when you'll need to be near an outlet or USB port. Maybe just charge it in your sleep?


----------



## Yanoflies

Hey, I was thinking of getting one of these. Just got a few some questions: 
   
  I'm still waiting for my AD900X (they were meant to come last month but it's coming next month ... sigh) and currently have a Xonar DGX card and Swan M10 speakers.
   
  Could I leave it plugged in without issue?
  I'll mostly use it on the desk; would I have to manually unplug my M10s to plug in my AD900X w/ the E12 or is there a way I could just plug my headphones in and go?
  I'll still be able to use my card's Dolby/EQ while amped with the E12 right?
  Would it be a good addition for me, if not, what's a better option?
   
  Thanks!


----------



## pngwn

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  No, I don't listen to music for hours of end  my ears need to take a safety break and I need to take a break from music after an hour or two. But it is usually on throughout the day while I'm driving to and from work with my FM transmitter, in the morning for a song or two while I wake up, and pretty much constantly on while I'm at home on my computer, whether I'm surfing the net, watching movies, playing PS3, or actually listening to music. I usually end up recharging it every night right before it dies. Probably the longest I've ever listened to music in one sitting is three hours listening to the ASOT Den Bosch sets; nowhere near close the E12 battery life.
   
  Quote: 





yanoflies said:


> Hey, I was thinking of getting one of these. Just got a few some questions:
> 
> I'm still waiting for my AD900X (they were meant to come last month but it's coming next month ... sigh) and currently have a Xonar DGX card and Swan M10 speakers.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Yes, the E12 has a specific feature that allows it to smart charge -- meaning you can leave it plugged in indefinitely, even after it's charged, and it won't harm the battery. It's "smart" ;]
   
  I'm not sure about your second question. The E12 has one headphone out, but if your M10 has a headphone out, then you could go E12 -> M10 -> AD900x, I guess. Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about.
   
  Yes, you can still use your card's Dolby/EQ
   
  Yes, the E12 pairs marvelously with the AD900x. Out of curiousity, though, which version of the E12 do you have? The newest one or the pre-order version that was available from the beginning of the year until a few weeks ago?


----------



## waynes world

The ad900x should come bundled with e12v1 imo... brilliant pairing!


----------



## Evshrug

Yanoflies,
My Audio Technicas got delayed by a month too! The 3rd party company I bought from kept sending me the A700 instead, but eventually (eventually) they made good, and I enjoyed my AD700 for the next 3 years.

I don't know how good the Swan speakers are, but two speakers aren't doing you much good with Dolby Headphone. Maybe you can do what I do: plug the speakers into the motherboard audio (I just use speakers casually), and have your headphone system plugged into the Xonar? I'm able to switch between output devices in-software pretty easily, but I use Mac OS X. And yes, once the Xonar processes the audio with Dolby Headphone and sends it out the stereo jacks at the back of the card, that processing is carried through the rest of the audio chain.

Doesn't the DGX have an amp about just as powerful as the E12 (or E09k) built-in already? Or was that the DX model, and (of course) the STX?


Wayne's World,
It's people like you that make me want to try the new Audio Technica AD line, even though I love my AKGs and they still send me chills of pleasure


----------



## miceblue

Has anyone here heard the Sony MDR-1R's with the E12?
   
  I like the fuzzy case that came with the E12, but you can't really use the E12 with it despite having the open top, unless you don't use the security latch.


----------



## Hal Rockwell

I ordered an E12 from a seller on ebay in the end of March. Before purchasing it, I asked him if the E12 was V1 or V2 and he told me that it was V2. The moment I received it, I took it out of the box and looked at the gain switch, that said 0-10. I opened up a dispute on ebay but the seller swears that the E12 that he sold me was V2.
   
  Is it possible that E12 V2 will still have a 0-10 silk screened on the gain switch instead of 0-16?


----------



## Yanoflies

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Yanoflies,
> My Audio Technicas got delayed by a month too! The 3rd party company I bought from kept sending me the A700 instead, but eventually (eventually) they made good, and I enjoyed my AD700 for the next 3 years.
> 
> I don't know how good the Swan speakers are, but two speakers aren't doing you much good with Dolby Headphone. Maybe you can do what I do: plug the speakers into the motherboard audio (I just use speakers casually), and have your headphone system plugged into the Xonar? I'm able to switch between output devices in-software pretty easily, but I use Mac OS X. And yes, once the Xonar processes the audio with Dolby Headphone and sends it out the stereo jacks at the back of the card, that processing is carried through the rest of the audio chain.
> ...


 
   
  I don't use the Dolby feature for my speakers but I can still notice differences in the sound (the on-board on my Sabertooth Z77 sounds quite noticeably different in a negative way) so I'd rather have it plugged into my DGX.
   
  I'm not sure, but I'd rather have an external amp than trust one that comes with a relatively cheap card. I'll wait for my AD900X before I make a decision, I guess . I just want the beautiful looking E12 on my table haha.
   


> Yes, the E12 has a specific feature that allows it to smart charge -- meaning you can leave it plugged in indefinitely, even after it's charged, and it won't harm the battery. It's "smart" ;]
> 
> I'm not sure about your second question. The E12 has one headphone out, but if your M10 has a headphone out, then you could go E12 -> M10 -> AD900x, I guess. Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Sadly, my speakers does not have a headphone out.
   
  I haven't gotten the E12 yet.


----------



## Evshrug

hal rockwell said:


> I ordered an E12 from a seller on ebay in the end of March. Before purchasing it, I asked him if the E12 was V1 or V2 and he told me that it was V2. The moment I received it, I took it out of the box and looked at the gain switch, that said 0-10. I opened up a dispute on ebay but the seller swears that the E12 that he sold me was V2.
> Is it possible that E12 V2 will still have a 0-10 silk screened on the gain switch instead of 0-16?




I don't think it's impossible... but unlikely. Have you listened to it yet? The boost in the V2 isn't stronger, it's just targeted at different notes. It was always an amplifier first, not an EQ, in case strong bass was your goal in the first place. +6 dB is not even double the perceived loudness. Do you like the sound of the amp though? Also, FiiO printed an identifier number on their retail boxes, if you're concerned the amp is a fake you can use that ID# to see if it was made by FiiO (and perhaps when). Personally, I'd think you were lucky if you got a V1, but I'm sure if you can't return it you could probably make your money back by selling it yourself, if you truly got a V1.





yanoflies said:


> I don't use the Dolby feature for my speakers but I can still notice differences in the sound (the on-board on my Sabertooth Z77 sounds quite noticeably different in a negative way) so I'd rather have it plugged into my DGX.
> 
> I'm not sure, but I'd rather have an external amp than trust one that comes with a relatively cheap card. I'll wait for my AD900X before I make a decision, I guess . I just want the beautiful looking E12 on my table haha.
> Sadly, my speakers does not have a headphone out.
> I haven't gotten the E12 yet.



Yeah, onboard audio is worse, but in my situation, I don't listen as critically to speakers (which is why I said I use speakers casually). If I couldn't figure out how to electronically select output ports, I would choose to give my headphones the best audio, that's what I meant. You probably can select which output to use on your Xonar card anyway. Creative's Sound Blaster cards used to have a problem that any headphones plugged in would take over, but the new ones don't have that problem, and I speculate the Xonar doesn't either.

I also like having the E12 as an external, physical device. For something so small, it seems imposing.


----------



## miceblue

I got a ~15.5-hour battery life from full to death using the E12 with an iPhone 4S and V-MODA M-100. The volume level was at an insanely high amount for me, more than what I would ever use during a noisy bus ride, so this can set a lower-limit for me in terms of battery life.
   
  *bass boost is off, low gain, crossfeed is off*

   

   
  Now to see if this "using the E12 while charging sounds bad" rumor is true.


----------



## Evshrug

Wow, pretty impressive battery time.
When my E12 is plugged in, it just sounds grainier and harsher, I don't like to use it then.


----------



## miceblue

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Wow, pretty impressive battery time.
> When my E12 is plugged in, it just sounds grainier and harsher, I don't like it at all.


 
  Ah yes, you're right. There seems to be an extra layer of texture/grain on the songs I'm trying out and the treble does seem more compressed (probably not the right word) or harsh.


----------



## Yanoflies

Damn, that means I should not use this as a desktop amp since I'd mostly use it on the desk :'(.


----------



## miceblue

Quote: 





yanoflies said:


> Damn, that means I should not use this as a desktop amp since I'd mostly use it on the desk :'(.


 
   
  I was just about to edit my post, but with that battery life you can use it without charging for basically the whole day and then charge it when you go to bed.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Boweii,
> Did you just watch that apple "Here's to the crazy ones" TV commercial?
> 
> Miceblue,
> I personally think the power-on delay was implemented in response to ..."some people"... Totally flaming another manufacturer because it didn't have such a protection circuit. The E12 is more powerful than most portable amps, so while it's not necessary because I plug in my headphones after turning on an amp, it's nice to have the peace of mind.


 
  I think FiiO uses an output relay to protect the headphones from the DC pulse that may occur when the power supply starts up when you turn the E12 on.
   
  It appears that FiiO uses some type of (SMPS) Switch Mode Power Supply to generate +/11 Vdc from the 5 Vdc supplied by the USB input to the E12.  Their literature refers to it as "high performance DC/DC circuit transformation".


----------



## bowei006

yanoflies said:


> Damn, that means I should not use this as a desktop amp since I'd mostly use it on the desk :'(.


The value of FiiO products are in the description. 

A desktop amp would better suit you.


----------



## Yanoflies

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> The value of FiiO products are in the description.
> 
> A desktop amp would better suit you.


 
   
  That's true. But I do want to have the option to take it out with me when I want to, hence wanting portable. 
   
  Besides, the main reason why I want the E12 is because of its looks. I don't really know many amps in this price range that'd look as good as this (more difficult buying from Australia).


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





yanoflies said:


> That's true. But I do want to have the option to take it out with me when I want to, hence wanting portable.
> 
> Besides, the main reason why I want the E12 is because of its looks. I don't really know many amps in this price range that'd look as good as this (more difficult buying from Australia).


 
  Many amps look hot these days 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  Leckerton UHA series
  Schiit M&M
  FiiO E09K
  (Insert brand here) Objective 2 amplifier
  Maverick Tube Magic
  Audinist HUD Series
  Audioengine D/A
   
  Obviously these are $200 units etc


----------



## Evshrug

yanoflies said:


> That's true. But I do want to have the option to take it out with me when I want to, hence wanting portable.
> 
> Besides, the main reason why I want the E12 is because of its looks. I don't really know many amps in this price range that'd look as good as this (more difficult buying from Australia).



That's basically why I bought the E12, too. However, once I got it, I realized how convenient it was to power my headphones from different devices. So it is portable (large size of pocketable, but long and slim is a better fit choice IMO than wider and fatter), but also it is convenient for changing your setup (Xbox, computer, the living room, or with my iPod on the porch or in bed). Of course some minor compromises are made, such as the need to occasionally charge it. Also, I revised my post... Instead of saying "I don't like it at all," truth is it doesn't sound awful, but not as good as straight from the battery, enough so that I just wait for it to finish charging. You could just charge it every other day whenever you're not using it, then you'd always have enough juice.


----------



## jacknight

anyone try compared e12 with alo national? which one better?


----------



## Parall3l

Got my E12 2 days ago, haven't even charged it yet. Just grabbed it out of the box and it works. Loving the bass boost


----------



## Yanoflies

Okay before I bite the bullet:
   
  1. It's okay to use in conjunction with my Xonar DGX right? And my iPod Classic 6G?
  2. How noticeable will the improvement in sound be for both music and gaming? AD900X and A900X.
  3. How will I plug them to the computer? I'll probably use the front panel (connected to the Xonar DGX) since my Swan M10s are on the back (no headphone input) and I'm afraid it might be a bit awkward with the provided right angled cables. Can I just use any cheap male to male 3.5mm cables?


----------



## pngwn

1. Yes it is okay 
2. Are you asking which is better? I havent heard the A900x, but I'll day the AD900x just because it's open and therefore has a better soundstage. Positioning is a little blurry sounding, but very good in general. The improvement for music with the AD900x is great because of how well the bass boost complements the rest of the sound. I don't competitive game, so idk. 
3. You can use any male to male cable you want.


----------



## zazex

I got a chance to listen to my E12 at length today, and I like it a lot.
  Listened to a variety of source material on Sony Z1000's and AKG K702's.
   
  There's a whole lot more to say, but that sums it up.
  It's a "keeper", and I don't hesitate even for a second to recommend it.


----------



## Yanoflies

Item Sku Qty Subtotal *FiiO E12 Mont Blanc Portable Headphone Amplifier* 3870 1 AU$126.42
   
   
  Just  made my order.


----------



## Evshrug

Congrats, & welcome to de club


----------



## Yanoflies

I read it was really sensitive to wireless signals ... it was meant to sit somewhere practically next to my router/modem (wireless is on for my phone/tablet) ... is that gonna cause an issue?


----------



## Chris J

yanoflies said:


> I read it was really sensitive to wireless signals ... it was meant to sit somewhere practically next to my router/modem (wireless is on for my phone/tablet) ... is that gonna cause an issue?




As a precautionary measure, I would not put any audio equipment next to a router!
Sounds like a recipe for noise to break into your audio equipment!


----------



## Dyaems

is it possible to clean the E12's volume pot? dunno if it can really be cleaned though


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





dyaems said:


> is it possible to clean the E12's volume pot? dunno if it can really be cleaned though


 
  It's a new pot, the E12 is still under warranty, why do you want to clean the pot?


----------



## bowei006

chris j said:


> It's a new pot, the E12 is still under warranty, why do you want to clean the pot?


I personally also kinda do.

Stuff gets stuck in.

I dont even use it often. An hour a day with the E12 and then i use my desktop equipment.


----------



## ravager

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> I personally also kinda do.
> 
> Stuff gets stuck in.
> 
> I dont even use it often. An hour a day with the E12 and then i use my desktop equipment.


 
  Unless you got something liquid in there, I wouldn't be worrying about cleaning your pot already. Sometimes it does more harm than good. I only clean a potentiometer when there is a degradation in sound. It is unlikely that any lint has made its way into your E12 pot already.
   
  edit: But if you are already hearing that degradation, I would see about getting a replacement unit from the seller.


----------



## Nickcope

Hi
  OK I have a small contribution to this thread as I find the Fiio e12 a most impressive amp for its incredible price! Previously for the last year I have owned the Fiio e11.
   
  I paid £109 three weeks ago for my e12, and yes I live in London, UK. My evaluation of this amp is based on my experience with both of my most used headphones. The Beyerdynamic DT1350, which I use for mainly portable use through my iphone 4S or ipod classic, (apple lossless files). As well as my Sennheiser HD650's which I use at home when the 'leakage' from these phones may not disturb my teenage children from their homework or watching whatever they watch on TV, they are not particularly private headphones.
   
  Of course these Sennheisers rule supreme when used through my Roksan Caspian MK1 CD player via my Graham Slee 'Solo' headphone amp. But that is another story, here I am talking about the Fiio e12 portable amp.
   
  So as for the 'supraaural' Beyers I find the best settings to be low gain (but relatively high volume level), with the bass boost on. Although this depends on what I am listening too. Sometimes Spotify through my iphone 4S doesn't need the bass boost although form the ipod on my iphone 4S or my ipod classic the bass boost is great! Absolutely no Cross-feed under any circumstances, it ruins the sound!
  I find the sound utterly satisfying, compelling etc.
   
  Usng my Sennheisers HD650's with the Fiio e12 no bass boost is needed, high gain, again no cross-feed at all. 
  These settings on the Fiio e12 amp with my two headphones give me everything I need and more! Whatever genre I listen to.
   
  This afternoon I have listened to some Bob Marley, 'Satisfy my soul' & 'Exodus'. Diana Ross, 'You are everything' & 'Touch me in the morning'! As well as the Tangerine Dream 'Phaedra' album, some 'Aes Dana' (European stuff!). As well as some Al Stewart 'Year of the Cat' track, with the Klaus Schulze 50 minute long 'Sense' track from his live album of 1979. Highly recommended although this is an aquired taste!
  Enjoy the e12 amp.........I love it......I am happy......


----------



## Rango

Is this amp can power up my beyerdynamic dt990 pro 250ohm


----------



## Chris J

rango said:


> Is this amp can power up my beyerdynamic dt990 pro 250ohm




The E12 will have no problem driving a pair of 250 or 600 Ohm Beyers.


----------



## Rango

Quote: 





chris j said:


> The E12 will have no problem driving a pair of 250 or 600 Ohm Beyers.


 

 Thanks for the reply and which DAC should I buy ? Sound of my source is laptop and iPhone 5


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





rango said:


> Thanks for the reply and which DAC should I buy ? Sound of my source is laptop and iPhone 5


 
   
  The laptop is pretty easy:
  there are a lot of DAC that will take the USB output from your laptop.
   
  The iPhone5 gives everyone fits!
  You can get a digital dock for the iPhone which outputs a digital SPDIF signal via RCA or Optical cable for the iPhone, which you then plug into a DAC. This is what I have.
   
  Or you can buy a DAC which can decode the digital signal from the iPhone5.   I think HRT makes these.  I've never owned a DAC that takes an iDevice straight in.
   
  Or you can take analog straight out of the iPhone5.


----------



## Change is Good

Quote: 





chris j said:


> I think HRT makes these.


 
   
  +1
   
http://www.amazon.com/HRT-iStreamer-Outboard-DAC-iDevices/dp/B004H5UYLO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1368476537&sr=8-1&keywords=hrt+istreamer


----------



## Evshrug

But does the iStreamer work with apple's new Lightning dock devices, for example the newest iPhone, iPod Touch, and iPad?


----------



## ZINCOGNITO

First time posting but a long time lurker.
  Where could I find one of these bad boys?


----------



## Lifted Andreas

zincognito said:


> First time posting but a long time lurker.
> Where could I find one of these bad boys?




Looked on eBay?


----------



## Change is Good

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> But does the iStreamer work with apple's new Lightning dock devices, for example the newest iPhone, iPod Touch, and iPad?


 
   
  Good question. I have no hands on with this device (I don't even own any apple products lol). I was just clarifying what Chris J was referring to.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





zincognito said:


> First time posting but a long time lurker.
> Where could I find one of these bad boys?


 
   
  If you are Canadian, then you can buy one from The Headfoneshop.
  Yes, it's true.
  We can't spell in Canada.


----------



## Change is Good

Quote: 





lifted andreas said:


> Looked on eBay?


 
   
  That or wait until some distributors start selling them on Amazon, again. Also, just visit the Fiio website and purchase directly from one of their distributors in your area.
   
http://www.fiio.com.cn/where/index.aspx


----------



## Evshrug

Yeah. I hope it does. If it still plugs in via USB, then it should work, but if it plugs into the old 30-pin port/dock, then that won't work. I bet more iStreamer like devices will be developed especially in the current market, but even so, I hope Apple has better benefits planned with the new lightning dock than just "OOooOOHhhh, I can plug it in either way, woopee!"


----------



## miceblue

Quote: 





change is good said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Micca is listed on the approved vendors, and I purchased mine through them, but they don't have a product page anymore. What happened?


----------



## Change is Good

Quote: 





miceblue said:


> Micca is listed on the approved vendors, and I purchased mine through them, but they don't have a product page anymore. What happened?


 
  They don't have a product page? Forgive me if I'm not understanding what you mean.
   
http://www.miccastore.com/
   
http://www.amazon.com/gp/browse.html?ie=UTF8&marketplaceID=ATVPDKIKX0DER&me=AFKH6OU9WWNFS
   
  Edit: The E12, however, is not listed so it looks like it may be out of stock.


----------



## miceblue

Quote: 





change is good said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Yeah that's what I meant. The website doesn't even have a webpage for it.


----------



## Change is Good

It seems that most distributors are out of stock except for this one
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_68898_FiiO-E12-Mont-Blanc-Portable-Headphone-Amplifier.html?SearchClickout%5Bquery_id%5D=20106181&SearchClickout%5BIgnore%5D=1


----------



## BenF

Quote: 





zincognito said:


> First time posting but a long time lurker.
> Where could I find one of these bad boys?


 
  MP4Nation has E12 with worldwide free shipping.


----------



## bowei006

Micca doesnt list a product if they dont have it in stock.

Mp4 has it but its best to buy from your national or regional dealer so that in case a problem arises. They can help you.


----------



## Azsamael

Anyone try the CLAS -R or CLAS original with an E12? 

I am wondering if that's a good choice or not. 
Thanks.


----------



## jjcoolaus

Should I turn the gain switch on, or leave it at 0?
Is it better for battery life, heat, etc to have a low gain and higher volume, or a high gain with the volume down low?

Re: stock, noisy motel in australia has stock, that's where I got mine from.


----------



## pngwn

The only reason you should ever need gain is if full volume +0 gain is too quiet. If you can get a satisfactory volume without gain, then there's no need for gain.


----------



## Evshrug

I don't know for sure, but I think the battery lasts longer on low-gain, and that's what I use.


----------



## renzpwns

Big newbie here, anyone want to give me a brief rundown of the pros/cons between the E12 and the E17? Both are like the same price at Amazon atm.


----------



## jjcoolaus

ok thanks pngwn, I ask because this video from headphonereviewhq suggests that you leave it turned on all the time, but with my DT770pro-80 having the gain on took away some of the bass and drove the cans far too loud, probably much louder than those headphones should be driven. 

anyway here's the review video I saw:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Cu8SCgFCAM&feature=youtube_gdata_player


----------



## pngwn

That reviewer lost me at the nearly arbitrary 20% differences and the "1-2db bass boost" of the E12 opposed to the actual 6db (iirc?) boost. Also, he ran it "all day"? Unless the E12 v2 has a significantly longer battery life than the v1, it should have died about 9 hours of play with zero gain and bass boost on, not even regarding the fact that he hadn't run it from a full charge.

Also, I see no reason why gain should always be on and question why the reviewer chose to audition and compare all three devices with gain on. I'm not an expert on FiiO amps, but do the three even have the same db gain boost? In any case, if you can comfortably adjust your cans' volume without gain, why turn the gain on and lose so much room on the volume pot for adjusting how loud your music plays when you can just leave it off and be able to more carefully control how loudly or softly your ears get bombarded.


----------



## Change is Good

For the people who were inquiring about where to buy... Emusic Enterprise will have them in stock on May 22 if you are buying through Amazon.
   
http://www.amazon.com/FiiO-E12-Portable-Headphone-Amplifier/dp/B00B6QXWIY/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1368608347&sr=1-1&keywords=e12


----------



## BenF

Quote: 





renzpwns said:


> Big newbie here, anyone want to give me a brief rundown of the pros/cons between the E12 and the E17? Both are like the same price at Amazon atm.


 
   
  I have both, and prefer E17
   
  E17 advantages:
  1) Better bass boost - around 20HZ instead of much higher in E12
  2) Treble boost
  3) A good DAC
  4) Better EMI
  5) Better interface
   
  E12 advantages:
  1) More power
  2) Higher gain 16DB vs 12DB
  3) Crossfade (hate the switch)


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> I don't know for sure, but I think the battery lasts longer on low-gain, and that's what I use.


 
   
  Well, not really.
  Short answer is:
   
  Higher Gain (16 dB) does not necessarily mean more power.
  Power draw really has more to do with headphone efficiency and how loud you are listening.
   
  If you have low efficiency 'phones and listen really loud, then battery does not alst too long between charges.
   
  If you have high efficiency 'phones and listen really quiet then you don't need to charge as often.
   
  Headphone efficiency is how much power your 'phones draw, not how high you have to set the gain or the volume.
   
  Quote: 





benf said:


> I have both, and prefer E17
> 
> E17 advantages:
> 1) Better bass boost - around 20HZ instead of much higher in E12
> ...


 
   
  Another E12 advantage:
  I have a pair of 600 Ohm Beyer DT880s, the E12 does a better job of driving those 'phones than the E17 as they need more voltage and the E12 outputs more voltage


----------



## zazex

Quote: 





change is good said:


> It seems that most distributors are out of stock except for this one
> http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_68898_FiiO-E12-Mont-Blanc-Portable-Headphone-Amplifier.html?SearchClickout%5Bquery_id%5D=20106181&SearchClickout%5BIgnore%5D=1


 
  I've bought from them within the past year;
  they were very professional and shipped quickly.


----------



## martybm5

I just received my e12 from Sonic Electronix yesterday. Entire process was easy and they shipped quickly.
   
  Dont have time to give an in-depth review right now but let me say that paired with my V-moda M-100 the e12 sounds awesome ! I love it !


----------



## jjcoolaus

chris j said:


> Well, not really.
> Short answer is:
> 
> Higher Gain (16 dB) does not necessarily mean more power.
> ...



Thanks for that explanation, I'm glad to hear that. As I was having to turn the volume all the way up just to hear it, i've turned the gain on again. 
The HTC One can power the DT770-80 OK by itself but it sounds significantly better with the amp plugged in. It's nice to know that if my amp goes flat, I have the phone' s inbuilt amp as a backup, it's just not as good as this one. 

I had thought about the E17, but having it plugged into the USB of the phone must drain your phone battery, and the One has a non removable battery.


----------



## BenF

Quote: 





jjcoolaus said:


> Thanks for that explanation, I'm glad to hear that. As I was having to turn the volume all the way up just to hear it, i've turned the gain on again.
> The HTC One can power the DT770-80 OK by itself but it sounds significantly better with the amp plugged in. It's nice to know that if my amp goes flat, I have the phone' s inbuilt amp as a backup, it's just not as good as this one.
> 
> I had thought about the E17, but having it plugged into the USB of the phone must drain your phone battery, and the One has a non removable battery.


 

 You can turn off USB charging on E17, preventing the battery drain on the One.


----------



## deephis

It's my first post and also I just bought this amp and E11 (also bought at the same time, just because many said that it's more about bass compared to E12), but both doing a great job! It can improve my old old Altec Lansing UHP512 headphone for better sound. I use my E11 for more beat and bass and the E12 for more calm musics. 
I can't explain about these amps because I'm new to this audiophile equipment but in general it makes clearer and 'wow' sound IMHO. I'm very happy with them;D

And I'm confused about the E12 V1 and V2, how do I know the differences from physical view? I have my E12 signed with '16' on the gain switch not '10', does this indicate V2?

I'm also looking for in ear earphone that will use it with the amps, my choices are Shure SE215 or Klipsch S4. Looking for a good bass and good mid vocal. 

Thanks
deephis


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





deephis said:


> It's my first post and also I just bought this amp and E11 (also bought at the same time, just because many said that it's more about bass compared to E12), but both doing a great job! It can improve my old old Altec Lansing UHP512 headphone for better sound. I use my E11 for more beat and bass and the E12 for more calm musics.
> I can't explain about these amps because I'm new to this audiophile equipment but in general it makes clearer and 'wow' sound IMHO. I'm very happy with them;D
> 
> And I'm confused about the E12 V1 and V2, how do I know the differences from physical view? I have my E12 signed with '16' on the gain switch not '10', does this indicate V2?
> ...


 
  Physically it is not possible
   
  but if it says 16dB, then it is V2. Some 10dB's are also V1 though


----------



## deephis

bowei006 said:


> Physically it is not possible
> 
> but if it says 16dB, then it is V2. Some 10dB's are also V1 though



I see, that's great if I have the V2, because I like more bass. 
I also have contacted Fiio for my E12, they actually asking for the code to determine the version.


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





deephis said:


> I see, that's great if I have the V2, because I like more bass.
> I also have contacted Fiio for my E12, they actually asking for the code to determine the version.


 
  "Welcome to Head-Fi! Sorry abour your wallet"
   
  The system for determining it for people like us is very general. We could be wrong of course.
   
  Weird that your post count hasn't increased even though this is now your second post. Anyway, welcome.


----------



## deephis

bowei006 said:


> "Welcome to Head-Fi! Sorry abour your wallet"
> 
> The system for determining it for people like us is very general. We could be wrong of course.
> 
> Weird that your post count hasn't increased even though this is now your second post. Anyway, welcome.



Just got a reply from Fiio, my E12 is second version. That have 16dB sign on Gain and new battery socket to ease users replace the battery, that's what they say.
I think many forums out there also like this, you must post several times. After it reach, the post is starting to count AFAIK.


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





deephis said:


> Just got a reply from Fiio, my E12 is second version. That have 16dB sign on Gain and new battery socket to ease users replace the battery, that's what they say.


 
  That's what I guessed.
   
  They changed from V1 to V2 before they changed 10dB gain to 16dB gain
   
  Revisions if I remember correctly are like this

 First batch with 10dB boost, more fixed battery, big device strap, V1 bass
 Added in standard device strap
 V2 bass boost as new default
 added 16dB gain option with new easier to replace battery
   
  Is what I believe the order of revisions were.


----------



## deephis

bowei006 said:


> That's what I guessed.
> 
> They changed from V1 to V2 before they changed 10dB gain to 16dB gain
> 
> ...



Thanks for the enlightenment. 
Does it to replace the battery, I have to unscrew the two bolts on the back?


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





deephis said:


> Thanks for the enlightenment.
> Does it to replace the battery, I have to unscrew the two bolts on the back?


 
  I don't have the updated version
   
  but I would assume yes. Unscrewing the corner bolts to get to the battery.
   
  Don't worry about it for now. You have another few years before you do


----------



## deephis

bowei006 said:


> I don't have the updated version
> 
> but I would assume yes. Unscrewing the corner bolts to get to the battery.
> 
> Don't worry about it for now. You have another few years before you do



Indeed, hehe... Just want to know how


----------



## benbenkr

Does the E12 have enough power to drive a HD650 to its maximum potential?
   
  Also, what about the wireless interference issue that some has been experiencing? Because if the E12 is going to be paired with a smartphone, then obviously... there's going to be interference. So, what's the take on this actually?


----------



## BenF

Quote: 





benbenkr said:


> Does the E12 have enough power to drive a HD650 to its maximum potential?
> 
> Also, what about the wireless interference issue that some has been experiencing? Because if the E12 is going to be paired with a smartphone, then obviously... there's going to be interference. So, what's the take on this actually?


 

 I have called from one cellphone to another (both less than 50sm away from E12) - no audible effect.
  The EMI issue might have been limited to E12 V1.


----------



## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





benf said:


> I have called from one cellphone to another (both less than 50sm away from E12) - no audible effect.
> The EMI issue might have been limited to E12 V1.


 
   
  GSM or CDMA or WCDMA ? The GSM will have bigger EMI issue


----------



## BenF

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> GSM or CDMA or WCDMA ? The GSM will have bigger EMI issue


 

 GSM


----------



## Hutnicks

Quote: 





benf said:


> GSM


 
   
  Curiosity and kittens here. What are the 3.5mm connectors used? TRS or TRRS?


----------



## BenF

Quote: 





hutnicks said:


> Curiosity and kittens here. What are the 3.5mm connectors used? TRS or TRRS?


 

 TRS


----------



## JamesFiiO

E12 can supports any earphones or headphone which used 3.5mm connector. not matter it is TRS or TRRS.


----------



## benbenkr

Quote: 





benf said:


> I have called from one cellphone to another (both less than 50sm away from E12) - no audible effect.
> The EMI issue might have been limited to E12 V1.


 
   
  What about wifi interference? I seem to recall there are some who reported on jitters when there's any type of wifi equipment nearby (smartphones, laptops, tablets, routers, those sorta things).


----------



## Hutnicks

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> X3 can support any earphones or headphone which used 3.5mm connector. not matter it is TRS or TRRS.


 
   
  That may well be true, but are we not talking about E12 here, did I miss something.
   
  I am seeing a lot of variance in the TRRS connectors these days which is why I asked the question. I suspect, but have no concrete proof that a fair amount of RF interference is being caused by the connections with TRRS connectors.


----------



## BenF

Quote: 





benbenkr said:


> What about wifi interference? I seem to recall there are some who reported on jitters when there's any type of wifi equipment nearby (smartphones, laptops, tablets, routers, those sorta things).


 

 I have placed E12 on top of my router - no audible effect.


----------



## MrScratch

I have a TP-Link TD-W8980 (2.4GHz + 5GHz) and I didn't notice any audible noise with the E12 placed right on the unit.

Also no noise with older routers (Netgear DGN2000 and D-Link DSL G624T).


----------



## jjcoolaus

I'm getting terrible noise through my DT770 Pros connected to my HTC One with the amp placed right on top of the phone, which it has to be using the short cable supplied (the F8 cable).
   
  Originally I thought my longer 3.5mm to 3.5mm right angle cable might be to blame, it's longer so i can freely rotate the phone to watch videos etc, but after less than a day's use I can see it's still the case.
   
  I'm getting like the "GSM noise" you get when putting a 2G phone near amps/speakers that aren't shielded.
   
  So i'm hoping a cable like this can help:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/2m-HQ-OFC-Shielded-3-5mm-Stereo-Jack-to-Jack-Cable-Gold-/200827575095?pt=AU_Television_Accessories&hash=item2ec2419b37
   
  I don't get this noise when the DT770s are plugged into the phone "naked" and it used to be very rare with my E11.
   
  If the new OFC cable doesn't work, the only solution appears to be a 3 to 5 metre cable, and keep the two devices in seperate pockets.
   
  I'm not sure i'm desperate enough to pay the price this ebay seller wants however, LOL:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/3m-3-5mm-Dual-Right-Angle-Male-Jack-to-Jack-Stereo-Audio-Cable-006049-/190729178914?pt=UK_Computing_Sound_Vision_Audio_Cables_Adapters&hash=item2c68584f22
   
  *ahem* or this one:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/2m-3-5mm-Dual-Right-Angle-Male-Jack-to-Jack-Stereo-Audio-Cable-006048-/380474428220?pt=UK_Computing_Sound_Vision_Audio_Cables_Adapters&hash=item58960b0b3c


----------



## jjcoolaus

Quote: 





benf said:


> I have called from one cellphone to another (both less than 50sm away from E12) - no audible effect.
> The EMI issue might have been limited to E12 V1.


 
   
  I have E12 v2 and the amp has to be on top of the smartphone to get this effect. By moving it 3-4 cm away you can overcome the issue but that's impossible if all the gear is in one pocket.
   
  The answer is to have the amp in a seperate pocket - the more i read about this problem the more I think that's the solution.
   
  I've just ordered a 3 metre 3.5mm cable with one end having a right angle plug (to go into my phone) so that should fix the problem. I'm hoping to have it by Friday and will report back here when i do.
  (seperate to the OFC links i posted above, and it only cost me $5 Australian - i'm still keen to get the OFC cable though as it's thicker and will be of nicer quailty)


----------



## BenF

I think I have found the EMI issue. When the phone is using mobile Internet (over GSM) - the noise is very loud.
  No problem with GSM calls or WiFi Internet.


----------



## benbenkr

Alright, thanks for the responses guys.
  I'll be getting an E12 this Sunday/Monday, I'll report back on any interference issues.


----------



## jjcoolaus

Quote: 





benf said:


> I think I have found the EMI issue. When the phone is using mobile Internet (over GSM) - the noise is very loud.
> No problem with GSM calls or WiFi Internet.


 
   
  Here in Australia i'm still getting some noise when I use a mobile wifi hotspot, unless my hotspot is in a different pocket, so i'm having some success there - so I might have my pocket wifi in right jacket pocket, the amp in my left jacket pocket and my phone in my right pants pocket or inside jacket pocket (which is higher up than the right jacket pocket).
   
  In summer I might have a bit of a problem lol.
   
  I use a seperate mobile wifi hotspot for streaming music often due to the cost of data on my main provider being so high. The 2nd provider is cheap but unreliable, and useless for voice calls, so i do need both.
   
  So it might depend on what frequencies your mobile internet is using. On 900 (2G/3G) and 850mhtz (3G) the noise is quite loud, i can really hear it inside buildings and lifts. At 2100mhtz (3G) and 1800mhtz (4G) the noise is reduced, but still there. Again keeping any RF emitting devices away from the amp (by 5cm - that's 2 inches for you Americans) seems to be a solution.
   
  I'll report back on what difference a shielded cable between the amp and the phone makes when it comes, but i think the noise could be generated by the amp itself, not it's cabling.
   
  *edit* The reason why a lot of people have success with using wifi instead is because the wifi transmitter is much further away from the amp than your phone is. When I walk into my house still wearing my headphones these interference issues go away as I jump on the home wifi.


----------



## Change is Good

I am noticing a static kind of noise when I turn the knob on my E12. Any suggestions?


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





change is good said:


> I am noticing a static kind of noise when I turn the knob on my E12. Any suggestions?


 
   
  That's likely because of dust inside the pot. Turn it all the way to max then all the all down, repeat for one minute.


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





clieos said:


> That's likely because of dust inside the pot. Turn it all the way to max then all the all down, repeat for one minute.


 
  I'll take that to mean without IEM's or anything plugged in.


----------



## Change is Good

Quote: 





clieos said:


> That's likely because of dust inside the pot. Turn it all the way to max then all the all down, repeat for one minute.


 
   
  Thank very much, it worked.


----------



## Change is Good

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> I'll take that to mean without IEM's or anything plugged in.


 
   
  ^LOL!!!


----------



## bowei006

Maybe already posted.
   
  But the E12 drives the LCD3 and Q701 with authority. I have the original V1 Bass with 10dB boost. Current retail uses V2 bass but more importantly a 16dB gain. 10dB drives it extremely easy.


----------



## pngwn

Wow, thanks for posting that, Bowei! I was considering buying an iCan with my future-LCD-2 in anticipation of needing power (which I still might do, anyway, but for now, I'm on the fence), but knowing that the E12 can power the LCD-3s well is great news!


----------



## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> Maybe already posted.
> 
> But the E12 drives the LCD3 and Q701 with authority. I have the original V1 Bass with 10dB boost. Current retail uses V2 bass but more importantly a 16dB gain. 10dB drives it extremely easy.


 
   
  Both V1 V2 are the same gain which is 16dB. already fixed it .


----------



## bowei006

pngwn said:


> Wow, thanks for posting that, Bowei! I was considering buying an iCan with my future-LCD-2 in anticipation of needing power (which I still might do, anyway, but for now, I'm on the fence), but knowing that the E12 can power the LCD-3s well is great news!



It can easilly power it, but should you use it as the default amp is another question



jamesfiio said:


> Both V1 V2 are the same gain which is 16dB. already fixed it .


 i thought pre prod samples were 10dB gain only?


----------



## MrScratch

It was a typo, if I remember correctly.


----------



## bowei006

I heard both :/ not sure which is true


----------



## AugustusZab

New here.. My E12 is connected to Sony Walkman f800. and Senn HD518., wanna team it with AKG Q's to open the space.. does that make sense? [am slightly sound spec mental].


----------



## AugustusZab

got E12, love the power.. dont love the colour it leans on my Sony Walkman.. need something that will open sound a little, prob better headphones [though have senn hd 518's


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





augustuszab said:


> New here.. My E12 is connected to Sony Walkman f800. and Senn HD518., wanna team it with AKG Q's to open the space.. does that make sense? [am slightly sound spec mental].


 
   
  Not too sure if this answers the question, but my E12 works well with my Q701 'phones.
  The E12 has more than enough power for the Q701.


----------



## Change is Good

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Not too sure if this answers the question, but my E12 works well with my Q701 'phones.
> The E12 has more than enough power for the Q701.


 
   
  Agree.


----------



## ati832

jds labs c5, headstage arrow or fiio e12 which one of these is more suited for a basshead, I am talking about output power and bass boost which one has the most.


----------



## miceblue

Quote: 





ati832 said:


> jds labs c5, headstage arrow or fiio e12 which one of these is more suited for a basshead, I am talking about output power and bass boost which one has the most.


 
  I have the C5 and the E12. Sound without any modification, the E12 is warmer. Bass boost on, the C5 is deeper and cleaner, the E12 is thumpier and less clean. Output power, the E12 easily wins but power ≠ better.


----------



## waynes world

.


----------



## waynes world

The bass boost on my e12 (version 1) is very clean, controlled, and very non-thumpy. I've never heard the c5 though.


----------



## miceblue

Honestly I think we should stop talking about V1 and V2. Only a few limited people got the V1 so when V1 vs V2 is discussed, it'll likely confuse the readers, and most likely not even apply for a potential buyer.


----------



## waynes world

Points taken. But do you think that could account for the difference in what we are hearing?


----------



## miceblue

waynes world said:


> Points taken. But do you think that could account for the difference in what we are hearing?




Mhmm that's probably the case since V1 has a deeper bass boost than the commercially available one.


----------



## waynes world

OK, then I won't bring up V1 vs V2 again - but I'm glad I have the one I have!


----------



## ati832

thanks for the comparison I already own the fiio e12 and was wanting an amp I can dual amp with, right now I am dual amping with the C&C BK and  when I turn up the volume just over half way on both the e12 cuts out on me, maybe using too much power but dont know why thats happening so was wanting to get a new amp, so the fiio e12 has more power and a better bass boost than the c5, can anyone recommend another amp around 250 usd range that outperforms the fiio e12.


----------



## bowei006

You could be clipping an amp.

Amps can input up to a certain about of power before clipping and distorting.


----------



## Chris J

ati832 said:


> thanks for the comparison I already own the fiio e12 and was wanting an amp I can dual amp with, right now I am dual amping with the C&C BK and  when I turn up the volume just over half way on both the e12 cuts out on me, maybe using too much power but dont know why thats happening so was wanting to get a new amp, so the fiio e12 has more power and a better bass boost than the c5, can anyone recommend another amp around 250 usd range that outperforms the fiio e12.




I have a Matrix M Stage, selling price is approx. $250 USD.
I'm going to be posting a comparison between the M Stage and the E12 in a few days.
Soooooo.......we shall see who comes out on top!


----------



## ati832

really looking for something more portable that is a desktop amp. has anyone tried dual amping 2 fiio e12's


----------



## bowei006

ati832 said:


> really looking for something more portable that is a desktop amp. has anyone tried dual amping 2 fiio e12's


 why would you want to?'


----------



## Achmedisdead

Quote: 





ati832 said:


> really looking for something more portable that is a desktop amp. has anyone tried dual amping 2 fiio e12's


 
   
  Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> why would you want to?'


 
  +1. that is a silly idea.


----------



## Oregonian

Quote: 





ati832 said:


> really looking for something more portable that is a desktop amp. has anyone tried dual amping 2 fiio e12's


 

 If you're going to double amp the way to go is pairing your E-12 with a Digizoid ZO.  You go Source----->LOD cable (*very important*)---->E-12---->ZO (set on high gain and just adjust the bass contour level)----->headphone.  The sound is excellent, quality is excellent, no distortion, just great depth of sound and incredible bass. 
   
  Purists will say a lot of things (I've heard it all) to discourage you but after listening to double amp setups for over a year, they are the ones missing out.   If they had a listen to my setup it would stop them in their tracks.  I am not kidding. 
   
  I've done it with my E-11 and now am using my C&C BK in my portable setup driving my V-Moda M-100's.  I've also done it using my Schiit Magni------>ZO----->phones and THAT sounded magnificent.


----------



## ati832

thanks oregonian you helped me a lot before I have got the ZO and honestly I find the bass artificial fake bass I need raw power bass. with the ZO dual amped I feel the Bass is dull maybe some of you like this type of bass but to me it sounds fake.


----------



## ClieOS

Want to point out that, regardless of how you setup to double amp, the last amp is the one that is driving the headphone. Those on the middle do not drive anything, but to increase volume and add coloration (if any).


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





ati832 said:


> really looking for something more portable that is a desktop amp. has anyone tried dual amping 2 fiio e12's


 
  Eh?


----------



## ati832

hahahha just saw what I wrote Im looking for something portable not a desktop amplifier.


----------



## miceblue

Quote: 





ati832 said:


> thanks oregonian you helped me a lot before I have got the ZO and honestly I find the bass artificial fake bass I need raw power bass. with the ZO dual amped I feel the Bass is dull maybe some of you like this type of bass but to me it sounds fake.


 
  How about a ZO2? I tried it and green to green-yellow sound pretty not-fake to me.
  Define: power bass


----------



## ati832

the fiio e12 and C&C bh dual amped create a much larger Impact using vmoda lp2's the bass feels like it is punching your head and sounds awesome and tight. with the Z02 which I have dual amped with fiio e12 does not have the power or the impact the other amp has and the bass even when I just amp with the Z02 feels and sounds fake maybe because the Z02 does not have a lot of power to drive its bass boosting fuctions. but right now I am looking at the c&c x02 as an amp with 1000mw output power which is insane or the c5 from jds or a headstage arrow but I am thinking the C5 and the arrow arent as powerful as the X02 but just need some opinions from fellow bass heads, also looking at the X3 dap as it looks as if it is as powerful as the e17.


----------



## miceblue

ati832 said:


> the fiio e12 and C&C bh dual amped create a much larger Impact using vmoda lp2's the bass feels like it is punching your head and sounds awesome and tight. with the Z02 which I have dual amped with fiio e12 does not have the power or the impact the other amp has and the bass even when I just amp with the Z02 feels and sounds fake maybe because the Z02 does not have a lot of power to drive its bass boosting fuctions. but right now I am looking at the c&c x02 as an amp with 1000mw output power which is insane or the c5 from jds or a headstage arrow but I am thinking the C5 and the arrow arent as powerful as the X02 but just need some opinions from fellow bass heads, also looking at the X3 dap as it looks as if it is as powerful as the e17.




The center frequencies for the amps' bass boosts are all different. I'm not sure if power has anything to do with it or else a Schiit Asgard would be a basshead's favourite amp. BH and E12 have a punchy bass boost frequency whereas the ZO2 and C5 are focused on deep sub-bass, so if you're looking for punchy bass, then you shouldn't bother with those.


----------



## Oregonian

Quote: 





miceblue said:


> How about a ZO2? I tried it and green to green-yellow sound pretty not-fake to me.
> Define: power bass


 

 Yessir....................that's the model I have.  Awesome power bass monster................all on the low sub bass end.


----------



## ati832

yeah you are right bass to me should always be punchy Its what I prefer so that probably is the fake bass I am on about lol I guess I am not a sub bass person it seems thanks I will stay clear from the c5 now.


----------



## Chris J

Have you ever wondered if the E12 could beat up the Matrix M Stage? Or would the Matrix prevail?
   
  Comparison time................ here's my review:
  I think the M Stage sounds better than the E12.
  End of review.
   
  Ummm? Why?
   
  For a start, the E12 is nice little amp for the $$$. And it even drives 600 Ohm Beyers!
     But the M Stage just sounds a little more open, shows just a little more ambience and reverberation, a bit more stereophonic, if you will. For example, the reverb at the introduction to "Never Say Never" by Tristan Prettyman has a greater sense of space to it. The acoustic guitars in that track also sound a bit fuller and a bit more natural, a bit more woody thru the big M.
  I hate to say this, but the heavier M Stage (it probably wieghs 5 times as much as the E12) sounds, well, weightier. This isn't to say that the bass in the E12 sounds rolled off or weak, it just means the M Stage has a slightly more relaxed presentation, a bit fuller sound, a bit more (here's that word again!) weight or a bit more mass to it's presentation. But this added mass isn't something that obscures detail, to these ears, the M Stage actually sounds a bit clearer.
      And the midrange............there's something about the M Stage midrange: Tristan Prettyman's voice has a more natural quality thru the M. The E12 sounds a touch more artificial, a bit more "reproduced" or recorded. Simone Dinnerstein's piano (OK, it's probably a rental!) in The Goldberg Variations sounds a mite bit more real thru the M, and a touch lighter and brighter thru the E12. But the E12's treble doesn't get harsh, it's an easy, relaxing amp to listen to. On Meaghan Smith's "The Cricket's Orchestra" (I'm her biggest fan BTW) the treble may sound a bit more delicate thru the E12, it may have a bit of a feathery quality to it, but I don't hear any harshness in the treble or mids. Nice!
      Let's talk about that midrange somemore! On "If you Asked Me To" from Meaghan Smith's album, the M Stage does a better job of reproducing that midrange air, fullness, shimmer and presence that a REAL cymbal has. The cymbals just sound lighter and less full thru the E. OK?
   
  OK, I think I've rambled on enough.......... No, I haven't:
  Some closing thoughts:
   
  1. Before anyone thinks about going all Sarah Conner on their E12 and squashing it to bits in a very large press and screaming "You're Terminated!", keep in mind these differences are very subtle.
  2. I've been using a pair of Q701s for this comparison and I gotta say, the E12 is a nice match for the Q701s!
  3. Maybe I'm not the most golden eared kid on the bock, but I had to perform a maddenly large amount of swapping back and forth to get a grip on these differences. Despite all this, I still like Tristan Prettyman's album "Cedar and Gold".......And she still sounds like a babe via the E12.
  4. And the DAC? I used the DAC in a wee little iBasso D12 for this comparison.
  5. The E12 will fit in your pocket, the Matrix M Stage won't fit in your pocket.
  6. As always, I thoroughly charge the E12 and D12 batteries before any comparisons. And disconnected the battery charger during comparisons. 7. I use that irritating level match method: a test tone and an SPL meter to ensure both amps are driving the 'phones at the same level.
  8. I'm getting the itch to repeat this with a pair of Beyer DT880s!
  9. I met Meaghan Smith once, and told her I loved her album, I was relieved to see that she didn't think I was crazy, in fact she was rather flattered!


----------



## pngwn

So, tl;dr, the M-stage is *just a bit (bit bit bit bit bit bit bit bit)* better than the E12, but not by much? Except for the midrange?

Not bad for a $130 portable amp going up against a $230 desktop amp.


----------



## miceblue

That was one mighty large wall of text right there. XD
   
  I still don't think the E12 compares very favourably to the O2 except for the warmer sound signature, more portable form factor, and sound EQ options.
  The O2 is only $20 USD more and I prefer its sound over many more expensive headphone amplifiers I've heard. If you're not going to use the E12 as a portable headphone amplifier, I see no reason to get it over the O2.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





pngwn said:


> So, tl;dr, the M-stage is *just a bit (bit bit bit bit bit bit bit bit)* better than the E12, but not by much? Except for the midrange?
> 
> Not bad for a $130 portable amp going up against a $230 desktop amp.


 
   
  Bass-wise the M Stage sounds fuller, but without loosing clairty.
  Since I have both amps, I will always listen to the M Stage over the E12, but the E12 is portable!
  But you're right, not bad for a $130 wee little portable!
  Quote: 





miceblue said:


> That was one mighty large wall of text right there. XD
> 
> I still don't think the E12 compares very favourably to the O2 except for the warmer sound signature, more portable form factor, and sound EQ options.
> The O2 is only $20 USD more and I prefer its sound over many more expensive headphone amplifiers I've heard. If you're not going to use the E12 as a portable headphone amplifier, I see no reason to get it over the O2.


 
  Oh ya, I fixed the wall of text.
  I copied this from my posting in the M Stage thread......I guess it didn't copy very well!
   
  If the O2 is brighter than the E12 then keep the O2 away from me!


----------



## jazzman7

Quote: 





miceblue said:


> That was one mighty large wall of text right there. XD
> 
> I still don't think the E12 compares very favourably to the O2 except for the warmer sound signature, more portable form factor, and sound EQ options.
> The O2 is only $20 USD more and I prefer its sound over many more expensive headphone amplifiers I've heard.* If you're not going to use the E12 as a portable headphone amplifier*, I see no reason to get it over the O2.


 
   
  I do more listening these days walking about than at home (too busy it seems).  For me the E12 is perfect.  The fact that it has the same footprint as the iPod it is strapped to is a big plus, along with the physical volume knob which is much preferable over buttons (E17).  But I have to say, my visit yesterday to the Dallas meet to hear big amps driving Summit-Fi cans showed me what I'm missing while mobile.


----------



## miceblue

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  From Stereophile:
  Quote: 





> _bright, brilliant_ The most often misused terms in audio, these describe the degree to which reproduced sound has a hard, crisp edge to it. Brightness relates to the energy content in the 4kHz-8kHz band.


 
   
  From this instrument frequency chart:

   
   
  From approximate volume-matching and track comparisons, I actually found the E12 to be brighter-sounding. The O2 sounds less aggressive yet more textured than the E12. E12 had more "bite" with violins and drums.


----------



## Chris J

Maybe I should try asking which one sounds less audibly coloured and shows more detail?
  More transparent?
  Or is their a clear winner between the O2 and the E12?


----------



## ati832

well I just brought a c&c XO2 and spec wise that thing kills the fiio e12 in everything and cant believe I picked it up for so cheap. will be comparing side by side with fiio e12


----------



## miceblue

Quote: 





ati832 said:


> well I just brought a c&c XO2 and spec wise that thing kills the fiio e12 in everything and cant believe I picked it up for so cheap. will be comparing side by side with fiio e12


 
  Not to say that price equates to better-quality, but the XO2 is basically twice the price of the E12.
   
  Quote: 





chris j said:


> Maybe I should try asking which one sounds less audibly coloured and shows more detail?
> More transparent?
> Or is their a clear winner between the O2 and the E12?


 
  Well without going all gung-ho about the design of the O2, and being unable to answer what transparency "sounds" like, I can't really answer the question. >_<
   
  I can say the O2 does have a smoother presentation with more texture and detail compared to that of the E12. The O2's presentation of instruments also seems more 3-dimensional compared to the rather "boxed-in" E12. Likewise but not necessarily corresponding to the larger soundstage, instruments are more clearly defined with the O2. The bass of the O2 sounds less bloated wooly (it's much more well-defined), I don't know how else to describe it, compared to that of the E12, which might be why I say the E12 is warm-sounding and "round."


----------



## Chris J

miceblue said:


> Not to say that price equates to better-quality, but the XO2 is basically twice the price of the E12.
> 
> Well without going all gung-ho about the design of the O2, and being unable to answer what transparency "sounds" like, I can't really answer the question. >_<
> 
> I can say the O2 does have a smoother presentation with more texture and detail compared to that of the E12. The O2's presentation of instruments also seems more 3-dimensional compared to the rather "boxed-in" E12. Likewise but not necessarily corresponding to the larger soundstage, instruments are more clearly defined with the O2. The bass of the O2 sounds less bloated wooly (it's much more well-defined), I don't know how else to describe it, compared to that of the E12, which might be why I say the E12 is warm-sounding and "round."




Hmmmmmmm.........I'm going to have to hear an O2 sometime. That does sound more attractive than an E12.


----------



## gimbertt

It might be just as be my O2 but I find it sibilant, with no bass and no instrument of separation. The E12 is far better.


----------



## AugustusZab

That helps thanks. Am on the cusp of splashing out for the Q's. You may have just pushed me over the edge.


----------



## miceblue

Quote: 





gimbertt said:


> It might be just as be my O2 but I find it sibilant, with no bass and no instrument of separation. The E12 is far better.


 
  That doesn't sound like the O2 at all...


----------



## bowei006

O2 sibilant? Yeah. I agree with micey.

The O2 is a diy unit so it could be variationly built units


----------



## gimbertt

My O2 is a commercially available unit.


----------



## thewizardsbaker

Ok so I wanted to ask a question. I'm really contemplating getting a E12. I already have the E17 but from all the feedback of the E12 I'm thinking it might perform better than the E17. My question to you guys is, should I purchase the E12 and pair it with my E17 using the LOD cable? Just use the E17? Or neither and just make the jump to an o2/odac? I'm looking for the best sound coming from an amp and DAC as I only use my equipment for listening to FLAC files on my Mac.


----------



## thewizardsbaker

Meant "just use e17"*


----------



## bowei006

If you want a desktop setup.

Desktop setups are recommended yes.
Meaning O2 and whatever or even MM combo


----------



## Chris J

thewizardsbaker said:


> Ok so I wanted to ask a question. I'm really contemplating getting a E12. I already have the E17 but from all the feedback of the E12 I'm thinking it might perform better than the E17. My question to you guys is, should I purchase the E12 and pair it with my E17 using the LOD cable? Just use the E17? Or neither and just make the jump to an o2/odac? I'm looking for the best sound coming from an amp and DAC as I only use my equipment for listening to FLAC files on my Mac.



 
 Personally, I like the E17 and E12 together.


----------



## Yanoflies

Could somebody help me here?
   
  My FiiO E12 inverts the positioning of my audio, and I've no idea how to fix this.
   
  Sound on the left channel come from the right and vice versa. Does not happen if I don't go through the amp.
   
  AD900X > E12 > Xonar DGX.


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





yanoflies said:


> Could somebody help me here?
> 
> My FiiO E12 inverts the positioning of my audio, and I've no idea how to fix this.
> 
> ...


 
  Try with an iPod or something? Does it still happen?
   
  If so, its the E12. If not, its the DGX.


----------



## MrScratch

Quote: 





yanoflies said:


> Could somebody help me here?
> 
> My FiiO E12 inverts the positioning of my audio, and I've no idea how to fix this.
> 
> ...


 
   
  I had a similar conversation with a user who had the same problem with a Xonar D1 and a Magni.
   
  Unplug the FiiO E12, disable all the active DSP effects on your soundcard (prolly the Dolby Headphone is the one to blame), then plug the E12 in.


----------



## thewizardsbaker

Modi magni combo? Hmm how's that compared to the 02/odac?


----------



## MrScratch

I think you are in the wrong thread. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
Objective combo vs. Schiit stack


----------



## kskwerl

^^ I do that all the time when posting from my android phone


----------



## Lifted Andreas

E12 is reduced on MP4Nation at the moment.


----------



## ducatirob

V.1 E12 's ser. # J... boost @20hz. V.2 ser. #K... boost @50hz


----------



## Evshrug

ducatirob said:


> V.1 E12 's ser. # J... boost @20hz. V.2 ser. #K... boost @50hz


I love my V1


----------



## wje

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> I love my V1


 
   
  Agreed.  Since I personally don't use the bass boost with my Vsonic buds, I'm fine with wherever the bass boost cut lands.  I guess I'd never know the difference, though, unless I were to be able to try a Ver. 2 against the Ver. 1 side-by-side.


----------



## ducatirob

Anyone selling a v.1 ?


----------



## fuz32560

Guys - i'm in a similar situation - bit of a Noob here but reading a lot on this forum.

Picked up a pair of HE-400's and an E12 - but now I'm concerned about the DAC in my PC. Thinking i need a USB DAC or something - but would I pair that with the E12 or should I get a USB DAC/AMP combo to use when i'm sitting at my desk?

I didn't see the E09k/E17 combo until after I bought the E12 - so i'm wondering if I should keep the E12 and get something else or send her back and pick up the E09k/E17. Or that O2 looks promising as well..

thanks in advance


----------



## wje

Quote: 





fuz32560 said:


> Guys - i'm in a similar situation - bit of a Noob here but reading a lot on this forum.
> 
> Picked up a pair of HE-400's and an E12 -_* but now I'm concerned about the DAC in my PC*_. Thinking i need a USB DAC or something - but would I pair that with the E12 _*or should I get a USB DAC/AMP combo to use when i'm sitting at my desk?*_
> 
> ...


 
   
  IMO, there are some great offerings or "all in one" solutions that also work well with orthodynamic headphones such as those from HifiMan.  For example, there is a member (actually, "WJE") who is selling a Audio-GD NFB-12 amp with a built-in Wolfson DAC.  It features connectivity via USB, Optical, or Digital Coax.  Quite versatile, yet neutral and pleasant sounding.
   
  This ends my public service announcement for today.


----------



## BenF

Quote: 





fuz32560 said:


> Guys - i'm in a similar situation - bit of a Noob here but reading a lot on this forum.
> 
> Picked up a pair of HE-400's and an E12 - but now I'm concerned about the DAC in my PC. Thinking i need a USB DAC or something - but would I pair that with the E12 or should I get a USB DAC/AMP combo to use when i'm sitting at my desk?
> 
> ...


 

 NFB-11.32 is an unbeatable value at 299$ - Sabre ES9018 DAC chip is amazing. The built-in amplifier is great too, but it can't be used standalone.
http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/Headphoneamp/NFB11.32/NFB11.32EN.htm
  If you want to complement E12 for a great portable setup, the ODAC works great with it.


----------



## miceblue

I think the E12 might not be the best pair for the HE-400 since the E12 is bright and the HE-400 has a tizzy treble.


----------



## bowei006

If you JUST need a desktop setup(not taking it out or moving around(not sure why you would anyway)) the you should probably not unwrap the E12 and return it

For $120-$200, you can get a pretty good desktop setup from
Maverick
AudioEngine
Schiit
Objective Dude

etc etc


----------



## amature101

Hi, i have a few question
  Does the E12 plays while it is charging? I wish to use it as desktop amp. Secondly can i change the oamp?


----------



## Change is Good

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> If you JUST need a desktop setup(not taking it out or moving around(not sure why you would anyway)) the you should probably not unwrap the E12 and return it
> 
> For $120-$200, you can get a pretty good desktop setup from
> Maverick
> ...


 
   
  This^^^
   
  Quote: 





amature101 said:


> Hi, i have a few question
> Does the E12 plays while it is charging? I wish to use it as desktop amp. Secondly can i change the oamp?


----------



## miceblue

amature101 said:


> Hi, i have a few question
> Does the E12 plays while it is charging? I wish to use it as desktop amp. Secondly can i change the oamp?




Yes you can use it while charging, but there seems to be a changed sound when you do that, as if distortion is added to it or something. I'm not sure about the op-amp but I'm guessing no since most manufacturers use surface mount parts which are not easy to swap out.


----------



## bowei006

amature101 said:


> Hi, i have a few question
> Does the E12 plays while it is charging? I wish to use it as desktop amp. Secondly can i change the oamp?


Yes, not recommended though as noise from charging is introduced. It's a squeeeeeeek noise like the whistling of a hot water boiler(if you know what that sounds like)

There should have been a DIY version sold that enabled you to swap op amps(no warranty) but so far, with the retail one, I do not think so(unless you are really really good at SMD soldering)


----------



## Change is Good

I do have to admit that I slid by with the E12 as my desktop amp for a few months until I purchased the iCAN. It's decent, just make sure to keep it charged...


----------



## waynes world

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> Yes, not recommended though as noise from charging is introduced. It's a squeeeeeeek noise like the whistling of a hot water boiler(if you know what that sounds like)


 
   
  Fwiw, when I use my smaller charger (samsung phone 5V/1.0A), I hear a pulsing noise. But when I use my samsung tablet 5V/2.0A charger, I don't hear that pulsing noise (and if there is other noise, I'm not hearing it).
   
  Quote: 





change is good said:


> I do have to admit that I slid by with the E12 as my desktop amp for a few months until I purchased the iCAN. It's decent, just make sure to keep it charged...


 
   
  You make it sound like you were embarrassed lol! I proudly proclaim that I use the E12 as my desktop amp   And now off I go, googling about the iCAN lol!


----------



## Change is Good

Quote: 





waynes world said:


> You make it sound like you were embarrassed lol! I proudly proclaim that I use the E12 as my desktop amp   And now off I go, googling about the iCAN lol!


 
   
  No, I wasn't embarrassed... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





... ok, maybe just a little, when compared to others and their desktop amps lol! It was a temporary setup from the get go... but I was very pleased with it. Plus, I knew I was going to need the E12 in the future for whenever I got my portable setup together which I finally accomplished (
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)
   
  The iCAN was on my radar ever since they posted impressions about it in these forums. I am happy to say that all three of my rigs are now complete, for now lol.
   
  Google on, my friend!


----------



## bowei006

change is good said:


> No, I wasn't embarrassed...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I would thus be even more embarassed then  back when I started, it was just a little small E5 with duck tape, strapped to an iPod with LOD. Oh gosh.


----------



## Change is Good

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> I would thus be even more embarassed then
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  My first amp ever was the E6 with my crappy droid phone and no LOD. So you were better than me, my friend lol


----------



## waynes world

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> I would thus be even more embarassed then
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Hey! I love that E5/ducktape/iPod/LOD rig that I bought from you for $500!!!


----------



## Change is Good

Quote: 





waynes world said:


> Hey! I love that E5/ducktape/iPod/LOD rig that I bought from you for $500!!!


 
   
  Hey wayne, how does the E12 compare to the C&C BH you have? Is it powerful enough to drive my hungry Annies and Mad Dogs?


----------



## waynes world

Quote: 





change is good said:


> Hey wayne, how does the E12 compare to the C&C BH you have? Is it powerful enough to drive my hungry Annies and Mad Dogs?


 
   
I really like the synergy of the BH off of the C3 (and clip zip) for all of my iems. The BH adds a touch of brightness, and with the SF switch on, opens up the soundstage. I love my warmer WS99's off of it. 
   
  I typically use the E12 off of my laptop + hifimediy sabre dac. I really love how the E12's bass boost works (I have the version 1), and it leans a bit on the warmer side, and narrows the soundstage slightly. This works incredibly well with my ath ad900x's, but everything else I have sounds rather great off of that combo as well.
   
  As to whether or not the BH could drive your big boys, I do not know! I do know that the BH doesn't have nearly the power of the E12.


----------



## Change is Good

Quote: 





waynes world said:


> I really like the synergy of the BH off of the C3 (and clip zip) for all of my iems. The BH adds a touch of brightness, and with the SF switch on, opens up the soundstage. I love my warmer WS99's off of it.
> 
> I typically use the E12 off of my laptop + hifimediy sabre dac. I really love how the E12's bass boost works (I have the version 1), and it leans a bit on the warmer side, and narrows the soundstage slightly. This works incredibly well with my ath ad900x's, but everything else I have sounds rather great off of that combo as well.
> 
> As to whether or not the BH could drive your big boys, I do not know! I do know that the BH doesn't have nearly the power of the E12.


 
   
  Yeah, I used the E12 off my laptop with my Music Streamer II as my DAC and got wonderful results. It really does have a great and well behaved bass boost (though I have v2), but it does not compare to the bass and 3D boosts of the iCAN. The iCAN really was a perfect fit for my desk because I needed an amp that was more desktop suited with ample power along with well mannered EQ boosts. I already had the M-Stage as an option... but it was being used for my gaming rig (plus it doesn't have any EQ boosts).
   
  After purchasing the iCAN, I was then able to use my E12 for on the go with my Sony F series Walkman and matches extremely well with it via LOD. I'm currently using the Westone 4, now, because I sold those Gr07 BEs I got from you. All I have to say about this combo is... well... WOW!!! lol
   
  I only asked about the BH because it was once on my radar before I purchased the E12, and was curious about the effects of its EQ boosts. But since it probably won't suit my big boys for when I'm walking around the apartment I'll have to pass (which is why I think I passed the first time because I had the Q701 when I purchased the E12).


----------



## waynes world

Sounds like you got a good setup going Change!


----------



## Change is Good

I can say I am done, for now...


----------



## Change is Good

I just have to keep telling myself I am happy with what I have and not log on to head-fi as much as I used to lol.


----------



## bowei006

change is good said:


> I just have to keep telling myself I am happy with what I have and not log on to head-fi as much as I used to lol.


I'm quite happy, have pretty much lost the entire audio bug thanks to reviewing the stuff(as in developing a formal opinion on cost and price and seeing what is worth it), and still log on every day


----------



## waynes world

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> I'm quite happy, have pretty much lost the entire audio bug thanks to reviewing the stuff(as in developing a formal opinion on cost and price and seeing what is worth it), and still log on every day


 
   
  I wait for that day of evolvement and enlightenment!


----------



## bowei006

waynes world said:


> I wait for that day of evolvement and enlightenment!


That day happened to me the day I reviewed the LCD-3's and Burson Soloist SL.

Very very nice sound, but it confirmed to me that there really wasn't anything I PERSONALLY(this is different for others) wanted otherwise to get in my sound and that its incremental updates are better suited for others


----------



## waynes world

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> That day happened to me the day I reviewed the LCD-3's and Burson Soloist SL.
> 
> Very very nice sound, but it confirmed to me that there really wasn't anything I PERSONALLY(this is different for others) wanted otherwise to get in my sound and that its incremental updates are better suited for others


 
   
  Are you trying to speed up my evolution or something? C'mon, I like slow and easy and incremental and stupid lol!
   
  Ok yeah, if I were to try those LCD3's, I could see myself hammering on the brakes as well. So thanks for pointing them out. I'll be looking into the Soloist as well.
   
  The only thing that the LCD3's have going against them is that this guy likes them:
http://www.kenrockwell.com/audio/audeze/lcd-3.htm
   
  I'll try to overlook that


----------



## pngwn

A lot of people post about noise and distortion during use while charging, but it depends on the power source, imo. Using my ipad charger, I hear no difference in sound; however, using a usb connection to my laptop, for example, and I get the high frequency squeek.

I'm still using my E12 practically all the time. So much so that I think I'm gonna sell off my BH, which see practically no play time anymore, to help fund an iCan!


----------



## Change is Good

Quote: 





pngwn said:


> I'm still using my E12 practically all the time. So much so that I think I'm gonna sell off my BH, which see practically no play time anymore, to help fund an iCan!


 
   
  Oh man, don't give wayne any ideas. From what I see he loves his BH...


----------



## pngwn

_ WaaaAAAAaAAAaAaaaaaAaayyneee... join me in the journey towards an iCan and an AD2kx ~~~~_


----------



## teddy-no-ear

I tried QLS QA350v2 LO>E12>ATH Ad700. This set up has good match, as E12's slightly warmness compensate well with Qa350's more cool sound and E12 reduced AD700's big but somewhat empty soundstage. The bass boost helps greatly with Ad700. Now I used Ad700 most of the time-I tried to sell this can for $50 but will never do that after I got my E12.


----------



## Change is Good

Quote: 





pngwn said:


> _ WaaaAAAAaAAAaAaaaaaAaayyneee... join me in the journey towards an iCan and an AD2kx ~~~~_


 
   
  It really seems like paradise, here...


----------



## waynes world

^ Everywhere I turn around here, I'm confronted with evil shaman trying to seduce me to audio nirvana. This is a dangerous place!


----------



## Change is Good

Quote: 





waynes world said:


> ^ Everywhere I turn around here, I'm confronted with evil shaman trying to seduce me to audio nirvana. This is a dangerous place!


 
   
  Yes, it is dangerous!
   
  I have to thank head-fi, though. Back when I had the Q701 paired with the E12 on my desktop setup, I turned on some classical via Pandora. I was doing homework at the time, and felt like I was accessing a larger percentage of my brain... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  My grades have now increased, slightly, since picking up this hobbie... seriously. I just crank up some classical or jazz and it gets me in a groove while studying.


----------



## MrScratch

Quote: 





pngwn said:


> Using my ipad charger, I hear no difference in sound; however, using a usb connection to my laptop, for example, and I get the high frequency squeek.


 

 ^^^^^^^^ This.
   
  Anyway, if I plug the E12 on the USB ports of my iMac it charges really fast (up to 5V/1100mA max, as with mostly recent Machintosh computers/displays) so I can stop playing music and wait the needed time to reach a full charge. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
   
  EDIT: I've tried to plug the E12 in my Mac keyboard while playing music, and suddenly...
   




   
   
  Result: really slow charging time + horrid buzzing sound (the Mighty mouse attached to my keyboard adds even more noise, as expected)!


----------



## ducatirob

The E12 will play while charging.


----------



## akash neagi

Ok I have a question.....
I was wondering what about a e17 and e12 combo???????
I am going to change my s3 for a s4....
Yes I know the the non-US version has a wolfson dac but as far as I have read the dac in the e17 is better.....
so I was thinking of getting a e17 as a dac for the s4 and lo bypassing it using the L7 and driving the e12????
I plan on using a XBA-3, MDR-1R, HD518 and a few other xba's.....
I was also thinking if this is a good enough setup of getting a HD650?????
I have a good offer for it........


----------



## johnlittle879

this is my main amp ..... over my other desktops and other portables. This is really a work of audio art to me i use a few different sound prossesors to pre amp the signal, and she deffinatly gets it done i have the e11 as well and i am a major basshead. I am as well trying to find a way to give it a pure digital signal as well i have the l9 lod cord but i really dont care for apple devices anybody got any ideas witch way to go???


----------



## bowei006

akash neagi said:


> Ok I have a question.....
> I was wondering what about a e17 and e12 combo???????
> I am going to change my s3 for a s4....
> Yes I know the the non-US version has a wolfson dac but as far as I have read the dac in the e17 is better.....
> ...


For the price, you could be looking at Leckerton's, iBasso's and what not that could do similar stuff.


----------



## Change is Good

Quote:  





> I am as well trying to find a way to give it a pure digital signal as well i have the l9 lod cord but i really dont care for apple devices anybody got any ideas witch way to go???


 
   
  The Sony F series walkmans are very nice with LOD out via the Fiio L5.


----------



## johnlittle879

I was looking for a more cost effective way other than another dacamp maybe a dac converter cable if it exists


----------



## johnlittle879

That sounds good Sony is my favorite components anyway ill have to check that out as well


----------



## johnlittle879

I was just trying to find something to work with my HTC one phone and my laptop mainly


----------



## Change is Good

James, Is the E18 for all android devices? I plan on getting the new Nexus 7 soon...
   
  And if so, what kind of LOD cable will I need... or will one come with it.
   
  Thx


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





change is good said:


> James, Is the E18 for all android devices? I plan on getting the new Nexus 7 soon...
> 
> And if so, what kind of LOD cable will I need... or will one come with it.
> 
> Thx


 
  It's for Android devices and users that know how to get digital output working on their Android devices.
   
  This basically means you need to have an Android device capable of USB OTG with its OS(ROM) supporting it as well, AND then the appropriate program to play audio and send it through USB OTG. The cable you buy also has made a difference for some as some USB OTG cables on ebay aren't legit and won't allow for full capabilities.
   
  So if you are one of the people that have all those requirements down and know how to get USB audio out. Then the E18 will work for you.


----------



## Change is Good

I'm aware of having to do jailbreaking of some sort to get USB audio out from the first gen Nexus 7, but isn't the new one built with SllimPort capabilities, allowing audio out? I really don't want to go through the steps in the Nexus 7 thread to get audio out, possibly voiding my warranty.
   
  Also, if using a OTG cable doesn't that mean I could just use any DAC/Amp instead of the droid specified E18? What makes the E18 especially for android devices?
   
  I know this is the E12 thread, but I don't know where else to ask this. Thx


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





change is good said:


> I'm aware of having to do jailbreaking of some sort to get USB audio out from the first gen Nexus 7, but isn't the new one built with SllimPort capabilities, allowing audio out? I really don't want to go through the steps in the Nexus 7 thread to get audio out, possibly voiding my warranty.
> 
> Also, if using a OTG cable doesn't that mean I could just use any DAC/Amp instead of the droid specified E18? What makes the E18 especially for android devices?
> 
> I know this is the E12 thread, but I don't know where else to ask this. Thx


 
  It's not really jailbreaking as most Android devices do not come loaded with measures to try to stop that. More of using specific ROM's to enable software support for a hardware(USB OTG) component.
   
  I do not know the in depth specifics of new features to get digital audio out.
   
  If you can get USB digital audio out, then you could use OTHER(not any) DAC's or DAC/amp units. However the power draw some devices put on the device is too much making some devices not be able to work with your Android device. The E18 is going to be more of a near guarantee that it will work and not use a lot of power.\
   
  I'm giving generics on the process righ tnow.


----------



## Change is Good

Oh, ok thanks for clearing things up for me. It looks like the E18 is going to be my choice, then...


----------



## MrTechAgent

Really is quite slick


----------



## bowei006

Clarification?


----------



## Headzone

Hmm, seems legit..


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





headzone said:


> Hmm, seems legit..


 
  Considering he is a well established buyer who has sold many of these in the past.
   
  I think he hit and added an extra 0 by accident. The E12 is $100-$120 USD so it wouldn't be that hard for him to hit it by accident


----------



## Makiah S

How was the bass boost in the end,
   
  I heard people mentioning there where Bass Light and Bass Heavy models, the initial bass light models having much Tighter bass, and the Heavy being a little more bloated
   
  I'm going to revist the Mad Dogs, but I want a neutral and more airy amp. The E11 did not perform well enough for me with my hm 601 line out and the Mad Dogs, Looking at the LME op amps in the E12 I'm already sold. But I'm still curious about the bass... there will be times when I'd rather have the Tightness reported in the Early Light Versions and times I'd want the Darker Heavy bass
   
  does the E12 have 2 boost options like in the E11? [Sadly my Mad Dogs will be my only portable Closed can, as there's no way in hell I'm carrying my Ath w1000x to College q.q]
   
  So I'd like an overall neutral and airy amp [which the e12 sounds like with those LME ops] Which the issues I had with the E11 and it's bass might be resolved. Still any thoughts on the DIfferent Bass Variants, is the Bass Light Version being sold again, via the "Special" kit being sold?


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





mshenay said:


> How was the bass boost in the end,
> 
> I heard people mentioning there where Bass Light and Bass Heavy models, the initial bass light models having much Tighter bass, and the Heavy being a little more bloated
> 
> ...


 
  No bass heavy or bass light versions.
   
  There was the pre production units with the bass boost focussed on the sub bass, and the retail release units that featured mid bass bass boost.
   
  People complained about boosting sub bass and not mid bass so FiiO changed it.


----------



## martybm5

Quote: 





mshenay said:


> How was the bass boost in the end,
> 
> I heard people mentioning there where Bass Light and Bass Heavy models, the initial bass light models having much Tighter bass, and the Heavy being a little more bloated
> 
> ...


 
   
  I have the E12 and Mad Dogs. I'm kind of a bass head so I generally listen to my music with the bass boost turned on when i have it paired with the MD's (I turn it off while using the M100's). Against the MD's the E12 feels bass light without the boost on.


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





martybm5 said:


> I have the E12 and Mad Dogs. I'm kind of a bass head so I generally listen to my music with the bass boost turned on when i have it paired with the MD's (I turn it off while using the M100's). Against the MD's the E12 feels bass light without the boost on.


 
  Good to know for my I like my Nu Jazz Un boosted and my Edm boosted, now the other question is. I'm also looking at the JDS C5, which has a bigger Sub Bass Boost [stupid whiny ppl] So I'd rather have that 80 hrz 6db over the e12 4.2db at 100hrz
   
  Still, how is the treble. I had a cMoy and that op2227 was just so congested. Ultimatley bass will not be the issue [well if it's too much into the mids it will b] the biggest thing is the Highs and the mids, I sold my Mad Dogs because they where way to Mid Heavy with my Hybrid Tube amps. But Now I'm starting school as ofc I need them back [for that sexy isolation]
   
  With the revisions to the Mad Dogs they shouldn't be as dark, non the less how is the Treble and the sound stage? The Mad Dogs sounded MEGA cramped on a crappy amp [ike the cMoy], so the E12 should be powerful enough to scale it well enough to have a good sound stage [my clear top tube did just so]
   
  Non the less how is the treble and the sound stage, and how are the voices! Songs Like Adele I enjoy, and on the EDM side give In My System a listen [by Nu Tone]
   
  Quite Frankly I still want a closed can to have what the Dt 880 and w1000x have, an overall airy balanced sound stage, with a little color [I've modded my w1000x btw] 
   
  So I want a portable Version of my LME 49990 Matrix M Stage with a bass boost xD [I still think the FiiO will be that]


----------



## johnlittle879

IT really depends on the cans you hook to it , the natural sound is nice and warm, with a bass heavy set of phones. But when you want it turn the bass up and it does quiet a bit of difference. 
  The power difference from the E11 makes up for the lack of a 2 stage bass boost!!!!!! IT depends on what you want in sound for cans ....... But either way you get the best sound quality possible from a portable amp..


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





johnlittle879 said:


> IT really depends on the cans you hook to it , the natural sound is nice and warm, with a bass heavy set of phones. But when you want it turn the bass up and it does quiet a bit of difference.
> The power difference from the E11 makes up for the lack of a 2 stage bass boost!!!!!! IT depends on what you want in sound for cans ....... But either way you get the best sound quality possible from a portable amp..


 
  Sound wise I want Sound Stage, deeper bass not so much punchy and airy treble. Ofc the C5 thread has confirmed that once again the Fiio E12 is [like other fiio amps] dark and warm [not bad things, in fact [Damn it] Fiio Amps pair amazingly well with my Dt 990s. They bass is unreal]
   
  Which leaves me once again stuck... the C5 and e12 seems to have different sound signitures... and I had an E11 and a cMoy in the past for that very reason [e11 with my 990s, cMoy with my 880s] xD I'm gonna be mad If I have to go that route again [not really though <3]


----------



## martybm5

Quote: 





mshenay said:


> Good to know for my I like my Nu Jazz Un boosted and my Edm boosted, now the other question is. I'm also looking at the JDS C5, which has a bigger Sub Bass Boost [stupid whiny ppl] So I'd rather have that 80 hrz 6db over the e12 4.2db at 100hrz
> 
> Still, how is the treble. I had a cMoy and that op2227 was just so congested. Ultimatley bass will not be the issue [well if it's too much into the mids it will b] the biggest thing is the Highs and the mids, I sold my Mad Dogs because they where way to Mid Heavy with my Hybrid Tube amps. But Now I'm starting school as ofc I need them back [for that sexy isolation]
> 
> ...


 
  Honestly I really like the vocals on the MD's also. I will say that most people feel that the newer version leans more dark than previous versions. To me, he's got it dialed in just right on the current version but if you felt that the 3.0's and 3.1's were too dark you may want to PM Dan.
   
  As far as the E12 goes, I feel they push the MD's very well but the MD's suck up as much power as you give them. The general consensus seems to be that more you give them, the better they sound (which seems to explain why the vintage receivers work well with tthe MD's).
   
  I dont think you'll find something at the E12's price point that will push the MD's better


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





martybm5 said:


> Honestly I really like the vocals on the MD's also. I will say that most people feel that the newer version leans more dark than previous versions. To me, he's got it dialed in just right on the current version but if you felt that the 3.0's and 3.1's were too dark you may want to PM Dan.
> 
> As far as the E12 goes, I feel they push the MD's very well but the MD's suck up as much power as you give them. The general consensus seems to be that more you give them, the better they sound (which seems to explain why the vintage receivers work well with tthe MD's).
> 
> I dont think you'll find something at the E12's price point that will push the MD's better


 
  Indeed, I can agree with that completely. And I wonder if Dan would tune me a Brighter MD [has doubts] but it might be worth a shot. That was the comfyiest most well isolating can I'd worn to date <3 
   
  Still I read over his release of the 3.2 and ppl where saying it was brighter, the bass was a little deeper and the sound overall was a little tigher. And yea the issue I had with it orignally was a lack of power, the more power it gets the better it sounds, and I didn't have enough...


----------



## Makiah S

Screw the MDs, they just seem to fickle with amps
   
  Going with the K550 and a Hifiman Hm 601, 
   
  Now that being said. I've got a lean Mid.Bright can a Warm Dap and for my amp will the E12 keep the sound mostly balanced. I will say my old cMoy had more lush mids than me E11, so if the E11 sound sig is simmilar [hopefully less refined] than the E12s I'd think it would work well for the K550 [if the e12 has a little more mids that'd b nice to]


----------



## Headzone

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> No bass heavy or bass light versions.
> 
> There was the pre production units with the bass boost focussed on the sub bass, and the retail release units that featured mid bass bass boost.
> 
> People complained about boosting sub bass and not mid bass so FiiO changed it.


 

 Wth.
   
  What kind of audiophile wants their mid bass to be boosted? Even my DT48 will give satisfying mid bass, but the sub bass is what they lack. A weird decision.


----------



## Evshrug

mshenay said:


> How was the bass boost in the end,
> 
> I heard people mentioning there where Bass Light and Bass Heavy models, the initial bass light models having much Tighter bass, and the Heavy being a little more bloated
> 
> ...



Light and heavy is the wrong perception, the bass was boosted by the same dB in both revisions. May not be worth talking about the first revision anymore, but I am quite happy with mine. The current version peaks it's boost within the midbass, while the pre-release and early batches had the bass boost peak at sub bass, and I mean 20 Hz sub bass + 6dB. I liked that, more boost where most cans lack, and mine doesn't bleed into the mids at all.

Now, I do think the treble could be slightly above neutral... But that would be to an insignificant amount compared to the variance from headphone to headphone. I DON'T think the E12 creates the widest soundstage... Better than straight out of an iDevice and nicely round, in fact once you get used to it there is a great sense of layering space in front of you where instruments reside, but my tube amp (you remember it?) does increase soundstage further. Still may be enjoyable for you though.


----------



## Evshrug

headzone said:


> Wth.
> 
> What kind of audiophile wants their mid bass to be boosted? Even my DT48 will give satisfying mid bass, but the sub bass is what they lack. A weird decision.



I could quote the >10 people, I actually counted that the people who wanted the change were fewer than wanted it the same, but I think to actually dredge up their names would be mean. I guess I'm just lucky I got the one I wanted.


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





headzone said:


> Wth.
> 
> What kind of audiophile wants their mid bass to be boosted? Even my DT48 will give satisfying mid bass, but the sub bass is what they lack. A weird decision.


 
  What kind of audiophile going by the dictionary definition? Not that many
   
  But what kind of music-phile would? most of them.
   
  A lot of headphones recommended on HF are too genre specific or were built to be analytical and or treble prone for the purpose that studio use generally just means vocals, guitars or instruments in that range. This makes many of those headphones very good for reproduction of the range they were made for for the studio, but sucky at low range unless that headphone was made for low end reproduction. So yeah, music philes want this for their studio headphones. Audiophiles that already have thousand dollar equipment won't.


----------



## Change is Good

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> I DON'T think the E12 creates the widest soundstage... Better than straight out of an iDevice and nicely round, in fact once you get used to it there is a great sense of layering space in front of you where instruments reside, but my tube amp (you remember it?) does increase soundstage further. Still may be enjoyable for you though.


 
   
  I agree, my M-Stage and iCAN have significantly larger soundstages than the E12.


----------



## jazzman7

I've got the v1 E12 with sub-bass boost.  I find I use it less now because I tend to EQ my headphones more recently, so it is not as important to me as it was when I first got it  But as a quick enhancement to an existing headphone, the sub-bass boost is something I do use from time to time, and it is very satisfying on music that has information down there (not all music uses the 20-40Hz bass region).


----------



## Change is Good

Is there a significant difference in power between the two? I've noticed the v1 has a 10db gain switch while the v2 has a 16db gain...


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





change is good said:


> Is there a significant difference in power between the two? I've noticed the v1 has a 10db gain switch while the v2 has a 16db gain...


 
  It was a typo. All were 16dB units in terms of the high gain switch


----------



## Change is Good

Nice, I may have to see if I could find a v1 to try for myself. I am really curious about it's sub bass boost and would like to compare it to my v2 to see which I'd prefer...


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Light and heavy is the wrong perception, the bass was boosted by the same dB in both revisions. May not be worth talking about the first revision anymore, but I am quite happy with mine. The current version peaks it's boost within the midbass, while the pre-release and early batches had the bass boost peak at sub bass, and I mean 20 Hz sub bass + 6dB. I liked that, more boost where most cans lack, and mine doesn't bleed into the mids at all.
> 
> Now, I do think the treble could be slightly above neutral... But that would be to an insignificant amount compared to the variance from headphone to headphone. I DON'T think the E12 creates the widest soundstage... Better than straight out of an iDevice and nicely round, in fact once you get used to it there is a great sense of layering space in front of you where instruments reside, but my tube amp (you remember it?) does increase soundstage further. Still may be enjoyable for you though.


 
  Ahh and a lack of sound Stage would not be good xD. And yea I would love to get a 20hrz boost... that would be quite epic, and I can see why people liked the early version boost, a boost that deep is pretty thunderours 
   
  But still I noticed that as well with the e11 vs the cMoy. E11 was great with the Open Dt 990, which already had a huge sound stage/ And the cMoy more so with the dt 880 which didn't quite have as big a sound stage
  Quote: 





change is good said:


> Nice, I may have to see if I could find a v1 to try for myself. I am really curious about it's sub bass boost and would like to compare it to my v2 to see which I'd prefer...


 
  Well that's what head fi meets are for!


----------



## Change is Good

I would love to attend if there's ever one in central Florida. For now, I can only hope someone like Evs is willing to work something out...


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





change is good said:


> I would love to attend if there's ever one in central Florida. For now, I can only hope someone like Evs is willing to work something out...


 
  I had a chance to get to one my self but I was too broke to go Dx


----------



## Evshrug

change is good said:


> I would love to attend if there's ever one in central Florida. For now, I can only hope someone like Evs is willing to work something out...




XD
You know it's tempting, much as I love mine. I've been looking at the iDo, and selling the E12 would go a long way towards funding the other, and I do tend to use my $200 custom tube amp most often. Aaaaaaaaagh...

I'm also suffering a bit lately. Every once in a while, a new album comes out, and if I manage to get it on my radar and buy it, I tend to enjoy that a lot. But over the past few months, despite wanting to just relax and enjoy music, I find that I'm quickly bored and unsatisfied listening to music on typical-fi stuff. And then I just don't listen to the music. I tend to play videogames regardless, but (for example) I just don't enjoy Sirius XM radio (came with my car) because it's so compressed, it bugs me so much I don't like listening for very long. And if I'm watching a movie at my girlfriend's house, I have to turn on subtitles because I'm so used to understanding everything people say.

Basically, and without consciously choosing it, my Q701 headphones, and all my extra gear, have spoiled me.


----------



## Evshrug

mshenay said:


> Ahh and a lack of sound Stage would not be good xD. And yea I would love to get a 20hrz boost... that would be quite epic, and I can see why people liked the early version boost, a boost that deep is pretty thunderous.



I wouldn't say it has a lack of soundstage. Compared to straight out from a headphone jack of the pretty decent iPod (video/classic, Touch, or iPad even) as a baseline, it has more sense soundstage than average. Just not as much as the best I've heard.

And indeed, a boost that deep is great and makes thunderous sounds more gripping, but keep in mind it doesn't significantly boost ALL bass, switching it on/off makes no difference to a song except with really low notes (and sometimes the sense of a large room, the ambient "air" in a large hall where you can sense bass resonance), so it might not be for someone looking for a fun effect, BUT at the same time that's what I loved about it: doesn't affect the mood and highlight of a song except when it digs really deep, so I can basically leave the boost turned on all the time. Still sounds great without it too, though.


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> I wouldn't say it has a lack of soundstage. Compared to straight out from a headphone jack of the pretty decent iPod (video/classic, Touch, or iPad even) as a baseline, it has more sense soundstage than average. Just not as much as the best I've heard.
> 
> And indeed, a boost that deep is great and makes thunderous sounds more gripping, but keep in mind it doesn't significantly boost ALL bass, switching it on/off makes no difference to a song except with really low notes (and sometimes the sense of a large room, the ambient "air" in a large hall where you can sense bass resonance), so it might not be for someone looking for a fun effect, BUT at the same time that's what I loved about it: doesn't affect the mood and highlight of a song except when it digs really deep, so I can basically leave the boost turned on all the time. Still sounds great without it too, though.


 
  I saw that you have your lying around at home <3 I'd love to try it  
   
  If it's like the E11 then I'd love to see what's gotten better ^^


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

Just got this beast.

Not a fan of the input placements. The front plate is too damn busy, and I find my fingers crashing into the headphone and input cables when I adjust the very tough volume knob. The side USB port just BAFFLES me. Should've been on the opposite end from where the headphone jack is. The Analog input should've also been on the same side as the USB.

Amps really shouldn't have anything in the front except the headphone jack, volume, and option power button... Ah well..

It kind of ruins the E12's beauty when all these cables are all in your face... it's gaudy.

At least the thing sounds clean as all hell and has all this power...

Waiting for Fiio to make a dac/amp with the E12's power, async USB/SPDIF, and hopefully a lower sub bass boost. I'll immediately sell the E12 for that.

I missed out on the original E12, which sounded more ideal to me. They should've given buyers the option on which bass boost you'd like. can't have everything, and I feel they gave into the typical consumer, and not audiophiles.


----------



## martybm5

Quote: 





mad lust envy said:


> Just got this beast.
> 
> Not a fan of the input placements. The front plate is too damn busy, and I find my fingers crashing into the headphone and input cables when I adjust the very tough volume knob. The side USB port just BAFFLES me. Should've been on the opposite end from where the headphone jack is. The Analog input should've also been on the same side as the USB.
> 
> ...


 
  I personally prefer a portable amp with both inputs and outputs on the same side. For me it makes it more portable but I understand people that prefer it the other way around. That's been one of the requirements in any of my recent portable amp solutions.


----------



## bowei006

mad lust envy said:


> Just got this beast.
> 
> Not a fan of the input placements. The front plate is too damn busy, and I find my fingers crashing into the headphone and input cables when I adjust the very tough volume knob. The side USB port just BAFFLES me. Should've been on the opposite end from where the headphone jack is. The Analog input should've also been on the same side as the USB.
> 
> ...


Yeah. Placement of the interface is less than ideal. But you get used to how to use it after a while.

I believe the E19 or X5 may be what you are looking for


----------



## miceblue

The headphone input and source input is weird since every other amp has them placed in the opposite way; headphone port on the outside, source on the inside.


----------



## martybm5

Quote: 





miceblue said:


> The headphone input and source input is weird since every other amp has them placed in the opposite way; headphone port on the outside, source on the inside.


 
  I respectfully disagree with you on this one ... There are a lot of portable amps that have them on the same side
   
  ALO continental, national, international
  Pico Power, Slim
  Tralucent T1
  C&C BH
  Leckerton Audio
  RSA Blackbird
  etc etc.


----------



## miceblue

Quote: 





martybm5 said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  I think you misinterpreted my statement...that or I just worded it really poorly. XD
   
  E12:
  [   (O)   (O)      (   O   )     ]
  Input, Headphone, Potentiometer
   
   
  Most amps have it:
  [   (O)   (O)      (   O   )     ]
  Headphone, Input, Potentiometer
   
  Like this:

   
  This:

   
  This:

   
  This:

   
   
  Not this:


----------



## pngwn

Yeah, the inverted input/headphone in on the E12 throws me off all the time


----------



## martybm5

Quote: 





miceblue said:


> I think you misinterpreted my statement...that or I just worded it really poorly. XD
> 
> E12:
> [   (O)   (O)      (   O   )     ]
> ...


 
  Ahhh I see what you're referring to .....
   
  You are absolutely correct regarding that aspect. (honestly never paid it much attention)
   
  Just to be clear, my initial response was for @Mad Lust Envy, who seems to take exception that both input and output are on the same side, which to me is a preference and not a liability.


----------



## Evshrug

IMO makes pocketing the deal a lot easier. No cables sticking out at weird angles.
I don't think Il'd like my E12 and iPhone sitting on the dock connector and cables at the bottom of my pocket. I don't see any other way for portable devices to be arranged for in-pocket use.


----------



## miceblue

Having the ports on one side of the device isn't a problem with portable amplifiers. It's the fact that they're reversed on the E12 and it totally kills the user experience for me, especially considering how difficult it is to adjust the volume precisely with the potentiometer.


----------



## frustin

If I had a 3.5mm to lightening LOD would i be able to use the E12 with the iPhone 5? or would i need a DAC as well as the lightening is digital only?  how would it work if i had a lightening to 30pin converter, surely that would also be digital only?


----------



## Evshrug

The lightning to 30 pin adapter has a built-in DAC. Not sure if it's as good as what's in the iPhone.

I'm looking at the NuForce iDo, or HRT iStreamer.


----------



## bowei006

Most people who tested the new lightning adapters including CLIEOS said that the DAC inside the adapter was bad and thus made using that and then an amp useless.
   
  Only options now are to double amp or drop a few hundred for DAC bypassing devices


----------



## Evshrug

Yeah, external DACs that pull the digital signal, like the two I just mentioned in my last post ^_^


----------



## Chris J

I have a Wadia iPod/iPhone dock with digital out.
It works great, I'm a big believer.
Too bad it costs so damn much!


----------



## frustin

Quote: 





chris j said:


> I have a Wadia iPod/iPhone dock with digital out.
> It works great, I'm a big believer.
> Too bad it costs so damn much!


 
   
  it's massive, what's in it?  what does it do?


----------



## Chris J

frustin said:


> it's massive, what's in it?  what does it do?




Don't laugh!

It takes the digtal signal from your iPhone or iPod and converts it into an SPDIF signal which it outputs thru an RCA coaxial Jack.
It also outputs video via an S-Video jack, which I've never used. Apparently there are some compatibilty issues.

It also outputs the analog signal from the iPod or iPhone out of a pair of RCA analog jacks, I don't see the point of this feature, BTW....:rolleyes: the "analog out" feature is useless. The digital out sounds FAR SUPERIOR thru a good DAC.

You're laughing now, aren't you........

Did I mention that it comes with a wee little remote control and a power supply?

I really do enjoy using it, but you are correct, it is fairly large for what it does. 
When I bought it, Wadia was the only company selling a digital out iPod dock.

And expensive, you still have to buy a DAC.


----------



## pietcux

Got my E12 yesterday. It sounds good out of the box. But after 12 hours of burn in on my head and off my head overnight it sounds not so good anymore. Kinda harsh and undetailed. I hope the good first impression comes back after let's say another 20 hours of playback time. So right now my Meier Stepdance is superior by a large margin.


----------



## BenF

Quote: 





pietcux said:


> Got my E12 yesterday. It sounds good out of the box. But after 12 hours of burn in on my head and off my head overnight it sounds not so good anymore. Kinda harsh and undetailed. I hope the good first impression comes back after let's say another 20 hours of playback time. So right now my Meier Stepdance is superior by a large margin.


 
   
  Which DAC and headphones did you use?
  And make sure you didn't turn up the bass boost by mistake, it muddies up the sound.


----------



## miceblue

My E12 sounds pretty bright and not very detailed relative to the O2 and C5 I have.


----------



## pietcux

Quote: 





benf said:


> Which DAC and headphones did you use?
> And make sure you didn't turn up the bass boost by mistake, it muddies up the sound.


 
  I run it straight from the LOD of my Ipod Cassic 120 GB. It is the latest Classic revision. And I do not use the bass boost or the crossfeed. It is set to 0db gain. The headphone used is the Ultrasone Signature Pro.


----------



## pietcux

Quote: 





miceblue said:


> My E12 sounds pretty bright and not very detailed relative to the O2 and C5 I have.


 
  Same here compared to the Meier Audio Stepdance. Even on 0db gain, I can hardly turn the volume dial to more than 11:00 am. The Signature Pro have 32 Ohm. It is hard to adjust the correct volume. 
  Seems that they gave up detil for the world record of we can drive every dynamic and orthodynamic can out there.
  But I still hope it gets better because I like the design and the size is very convenient.


----------



## Chris J

miceblue said:


> My E12 sounds pretty bright and not very detailed relative to the O2 and C5 I have.




Not a very fair comparison, but my Matrix M Stage sounds clearer, fuller and more detailed than my E12.
Not very fair because the Matrix costs twice as much and is also a desktop amp.


----------



## Change is Good

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Not a very fair comparison, but my Matrix M Stage sounds clearer, fuller and more detailed than my E12.
> Not very fair because the Matrix costs twice as much and is also a desktop amp.


 
   
  Agreed, I actually like it because I like my music to be more in my face when on the go rather than the open sound I get from the M-Stage (which can't fit in my pocket, anyway 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





)


----------



## rawrster

I have a question about the E12 with sensitive iem. Typically with amps and iem is that they get too loud too quickly unless it has digital volume control. I was wondering how the E12 does with that. I had the E11 and I think it did ok with volume control so hopefully this is just as good or better.


----------



## Change is Good

Quote: 





rawrster said:


> I have a question about the E12 with sensitive iem. Typically with amps and iem is that they get too loud too quickly unless it has digital volume control. I was wondering how the E12 does with that. I had the E11 and I think it did ok with volume control so hopefully this is just as good or better.


 
   
  I use my Westone 4 with the E12 and have no volume control issues on low gain, whatsoever...


----------



## BenF

Quote: 





rawrster said:


> I have a question about the E12 with sensitive iem. Typically with amps and iem is that they get too loud too quickly unless it has digital volume control. I was wondering how the E12 does with that. I had the E11 and I think it did ok with volume control so hopefully this is just as good or better.


 

 With sensitive IEMs I usually get to play in the 7AM-10AM region, which is large enough to set the exact volume I want.


----------



## rawrster

Thanks for the replies. That is what I assumed but wanted to make sure as not all amps do that even if it has adjustable gain. I'll have to see if anything shows up and if not I can always drop by b&h and buy it there.


----------



## JamesFiiO

thanks for everyone who help people have question about Mont Blanc, anyway, please email to support@fiio.net cause it is hard to us to take care all the thread about FiiO. and it is quite difficult to us to find more staffs who have good skill in English and techincal .
   
   
  In one tread, someone discuss that iBxxx should have someone just like me who response to head-fi'ers , but some suggest it will be best to let them focus on the development but not marketing. what I can explained is that we have about 200 staffs, include about 120 workers and others are engineer and salesman, marketing guys and something etc.  but it take time to train our staff so someone can help me in the future. 
   
  Anyway, I enjoy the communication with you guys .


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

James! Any device in the near future that is the equivalent of the E12 with a built in dac?


----------



## Evshrug

James!
We enjoy communicating with you too! Although, I also understand that it can be hard to keep up with "social media" like these Head-Fi forums. Hope your company is thriving!


----------



## johnlittle879

I dont think the volume transition could be any better. It is very smooth but stiff to ensure that you dont blow you ears or drives. 
  I have had mine for some time now and it seems that the volume knob has loosened in spots, its fairly wierd like it has the same
  stiffness but it slips in spots after use for a while . I dont think that it is gonna come apart or anything but it should be better than it is 
   for the price. Other than that iam very pleased with the amp as far as the amount of power . I dont see the reason for having a gain 
  adjustment being such a clean amp ...... DISTORTION KILLS !!! not power but for maybe ied's i could see maybe wanting a lower gain 
  output. If you are looking for a powerful amp that has the best build design and some of the best reviews you cant beat this little guy 
  just buy it you wont be disapointed!!!!!


----------



## starfly

So I just received the E12 in the mail today with the L3 line-out cable for iPods. I'm using an iPod classic with Rockbox firmware and using FLAC files. I'm using Shure SE530 IEMs.
   
  So my first impressions so far:
   
  Is it strange if I'm not really noticing a big difference between using the iPod directly and using it amped with the E12? And actually some songs sound better in my ears straight from the iPod, vs. the E12. It's like the iPod has every so slightly more detail. I'm not using the bass boost on the E12 as I don't like what it does with the sound, and it's on 0 dB gain, as that's loud enough for the SE530.
   
  Anyway, will keep listening in the coming weeks. Hard to tell right away if there's a big difference. But the first impression is that there definitely isn't a big difference, I didn't have a 'holy crap' reaction, if you know what I mean  Thankfully the dealer I got it from has a 365 day return policy, so I can take my time to test this thing out.


----------



## pietcux

Same here. I think it also shows how good the Ipod Classic still is. But I get the feeling that the E12 gets better over time. Have mine for a week now.


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

People buy amps expecting big differences from an unamoed source. This is not what amos are for. They are there to provide a headphone clean, sufficient power. There are some headphones that need an extra push at certain frequency ranges, where it may not hit as hard or sound as clean. Its not some magical overall boost in quality, unless you have a really crappy onboard amp.


----------



## starfly

Quote: 





mad lust envy said:


> People buy amps expecting big differences from an unamoed source. This is not what amos are for. They are there to provide a headphone clean, sufficient power. There are some headphones that need an extra push at certain frequency ranges, where it may not hit as hard or sound as clean. Its not some magical overall boost in quality, unless you have a really crappy onboard amp.


 
   
  Yeah, these SE530s of mine are already pretty efficient. I've never had to turn up the volume very far for the sound to get loud. Perhaps an amp only really becomes beneficial when you have harder to drive headphones, such as over-ear type models. Don't have any plans of getting that type of headphone anytime soon, as they're too big for commuting and stuff. I'll keep giving it a try, but I guess I had setup my expectations to be a bit different.


----------



## Change is Good

Quote: 





starfly said:


> So I just received the E12 in the mail today with the L3 line-out cable for iPods. I'm using an iPod classic with Rockbox firmware and using FLAC files. I'm using Shure SE530 IEMs.
> 
> So my first impressions so far:
> 
> ...


 
   
  Make sure you are using an LOD out cable to get the best sound through the E12.


----------



## starfly

Quote: 





change is good said:


> Make sure you are using an LOD out cable to get the best sound through the E12.


 
  I am  Am using the L3 LOD cable. I also notice on low volume the E12 generates a lot of 'hiss', whereas the iPod itself is quite clean at low volume. So far I'm not really sold on this amp.


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

Using such a strong amp for an efficient IEM. Of course you're gonna get some hiss.


----------



## rawrster

I get hiss too with my uerm but source isn't playing anything. That kind of hiss is to be expected


----------



## Change is Good

Odd, I don't get any hiss with my W4s... and they are pretty efficient IEMs.


----------



## starfly

Quote: 





change is good said:


> Odd, I don't get any hiss with my W4s... and they are pretty efficient IEMs.


 
  I read the W4s are less efficient than the SE530s, so that's probably why you don't hear any hiss.
   
  So after an afternoon of listening (yeah I've been listening a lot) to the E12 I think I can hear a slight difference in the treble region, compared to listening straight from the iPod. The treble seems to come out slightly more on the E12, which is a good thing since the treble can be a bit recessed on the SE530. It's only a slight difference though, but noticeable. Will keep you guys posted with my impressions (for those who are interested).
   
  Just know that I'm a skeptic by nature and don't easily buy into marketing crap and stuff so I feel like I can give a fairly neutral opinion about something


----------



## pietcux

I get a lot of hiss with my IE80 too. But the E12 was not puchased for IEMs anyways. With the fullsized cans that I own the hiss is no problem. The AKG K702 shows no hiss at all.


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

Selling my e12, if anyone is interested.

http://www.head-fi.org/t/677682/f-s-fiio-e12-mont-blanc-portable-amp#post_9723364


----------



## starfly

Quote: 





starfly said:


> I read the W4s are less efficient than the SE530s, so that's probably why you don't hear any hiss.
> 
> So after an afternoon of listening (yeah I've been listening a lot) to the E12 I think I can hear a slight difference in the treble region, compared to listening straight from the iPod. The treble seems to come out slightly more on the E12, which is a good thing since the treble can be a bit recessed on the SE530. It's only a slight difference though, but noticeable. Will keep you guys posted with my impressions (for those who are interested).
> 
> Just know that I'm a skeptic by nature and don't easily buy into marketing crap and stuff so I feel like I can give a fairly neutral opinion about something


 
  I've decided to return my E12. It's complete overkill for my SE530. One positive note though, it doesn't appear to change the sound at all, which is I guess what an amp is supposed to do.


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

No it's NOT. An amp isn't there to change a sound. If it's changin the sound, it's coloring the sound. People need to seriously do their homework. An amp is there to provide enough power to headphones to work at their optimal capacity. For easier to drive headphones, an amp won't provide much, if any benefit. For harder to drive cans, it will keep the headphone from sounding thin/weak in specific frequencies where running unamped might just do. Impact, definition, and clarity of busy passages may be affected by running less than optimal power for harder to drive headphones.

If you're buying amps to change the sound, please just quit the audiophile hobby.


----------



## starfly

Quote: 





mad lust envy said:


> No it's NOT. An amp isn't there to change a sound. If it's changin the sound, it's coloring the sound. People need to seriously do their homework. An amp is there to provide enough power to headphones to work at their optimal capacity. For easier to drive headphones, an amp won't provide much, if any benefit. For harder to drive cans, it will keep the headphone from sounding thin/weak in specific frequencies where running unamped might just do. Impact, definition, and clarity of busy passages may be affected by running less than optimal power for harder to drive headphones.
> 
> If you're buying amps to change the sound, please just quit the audiophile hobby.


 
  Dude, chill out and don't be offended. I said: 'on a positive note, it doesn't appear to change the sound at all' and I think that's a good thing. And by that I meant, it doesn't add any coloration so it seems to be a perfectly neutral amp. I just don't need it for my SE530. If I ever get different headphones that are harder to drive, that's when I'll get an amp. For now I'll just keep the money in my pocket


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

I misread that last sentence, my bad.


----------



## Chris J

starfly said:


> I've decided to return my E12. It's complete overkill for my SE530. One positive note though, it doesn't appear to change the sound at all, which is I guess what an amp is supposed to do.




I can understand this.
I use my E12 with my iPod Touch or iPad with my DT880/600 or Q701 for the additional voltage and current (i.e. power).


----------



## Rebkos

Does anyone know how to take E12 apart? When i unscrew two bottom screws, there is bass boost switch blocking it from pulling it all out..


----------



## miceblue

I'm pretty sure opening it up voids the warranty, but no I don't know how to open it up.


----------



## Rebkos

Yes, im quite sure opening it voids warranty. But my curiosity is killing me!


----------



## pietcux

Maybe this helps you with your curiousity.


----------



## Rebkos

Thanks. Thats nice  I can calm down. For a some time


----------



## ducatirob

I still don't find the crossfeed useful. It was one feature that spurred me to upgrade from the e11. I want to experience the more out-of-head sound. Am I just not used to it or is the crossfeed on the e12 just poorly done. Any hints on how to enjoy crossfeed ?


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

Crossfeed isnt supposed to enhance soundstage. Crossfeed is to mitigate the issues with old stereo recordings with fatiguing left/right only audio cues. I dont kniw why anyone expected more soundstage when bith left and right are slightly mushed together, not spread apart.

You want out of the head, get virtual surround, like Dolby Headphone, THX Tru Studio, and any other virtual surround techs.


----------



## rawrster

Crossfeed probably won't be very useful for the majority of albums out there or at least it isn't very helpful for me since none of my albums have the issue with that. It has no effect on sound stage so any out of head sound won't be done by crossfeed.


----------



## Chris J

pietcux said:


> Maybe this helps you with your curiousity.



 
 Looks just like a PCB with electronic components next to a battery pack!


----------



## starfly

Quote: 





rawrster said:


> Crossfeed probably won't be very useful for the majority of albums out there or at least it isn't very helpful for me since none of my albums have the issue with that. It has no effect on sound stage so any out of head sound won't be done by crossfeed.


 
  If you want an out of head sound, get the sound out of your head. It's really that simple


----------



## martybm5

Quote: 





starfly said:


> Dude, chill out and don't be offended. I said: 'on a positive note, it doesn't appear to change the sound at all' and I think that's a good thing. And by that I meant, it doesn't add any coloration so it seems to be a perfectly neutral amp. I just don't need it for my SE530. If I ever get different headphones that are harder to drive, that's when I'll get an amp. For now I'll just keep the money in my pocket


 
  I know this is a little more expensive, but I was very pleased with the ALO "The National" when it came to driving my headphones very cleanly. Definitely made a noticeable difference.


----------



## sbradley02

Quote: 





miceblue said:


> Has anyone here heard the Sony MDR-1R's with the E12?
> 
> I like the fuzzy case that came with the E12, but you can't really use the E12 with it despite having the open top, unless you don't use the security latch.


 
  Anyone see any overheating issues playing the E12 with it sitting in the case?


----------



## miceblue

Overheating? No, but it gets quite warm.


----------



## johnlittle879

Well the e12 is about as good a amp as a person could ask for in a digital portable amp . Its distortion level is unparalled , and 850mw is like caring a scud missle in your pocket 
  but what it cant do is take a pair of 99cent earbuds and make them sound like a set of five thousand dollar headphones its an amazing amp but its not magic 
  you get what you pay for . But for as not turning the gain up the power of this beast is what makes her what she is along with clearity as well as others ect..... Just dont turn the volume up 
  so loud it does my cans no justice with the gain turned down . Might as well buy a new corvette and pull out four of the spark plugs and expect that V8 to really move. Just try turning the gain up
  before hating on an amazing product, and NO as far as burning in a digital amplifier there are no tubes or mosfets so there is nothing to realy burn in, just micro chips and capacitors ect.....
  Try getting a new set of phones if there isnt any improvement . But there wont be as warm of sound as with a tube amp , but fiio did an amazing job on this little guy for what it is !!!!


----------



## johnlittle879

No it really dont get warm i keep mine it the case to protect it and i play the dog crap out of mine for hours on in to fubstep and hip hop with different bass heavy cans she does very well FIIO hit a home run on this little guy!!!!!!!


----------



## ducatirob

Thanks for the education on crossfeed. Maybe I need to upgrade to open 'phones from my hd429's. The plot thickens !


----------



## howdy

I cannot decied between the Fiio e17, Fiio e12 or the C&C bh. i once had the E17 and thought it was a grt match with Ipod classic, but i sold it.  now Inhave heard gd and bad about the E12 and a lot of good about the C&C bh. I will be using it mainly for LOD so DAC feature is not a big deal but the adjustable bass and treble was awesome on the e17. what to do, i will be buying it thi weekend. I do have the X3 already just want something for my classic as lod is way better.


----------



## Change is Good

What headphones are you using? I would say go with the BH if you don't need all that power that the E12 has...


----------



## howdy

change is good said:


> What headphones are you using? I would say go with the BH if you don't need all that power that the E12 has...
> Vsonic gro7 be, hifiman re262 and shure se215 also athm50


----------



## howdy

My phone grouped that, opps.


----------



## howdy

Quote: 





change is good said:


> What headphones are you using? I would say go with the BH if you don't need all that power that the E12 has...


 
  Is the C&C bh more transparent, i have a digizoid that i could run with that as well.


----------



## Change is Good

Personally, I would just stick with the Digizoid you have. None of your headohones are really power hungry so "upgrading" to the E12 would be somewhat redundant.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





johnlittle879 said:


> Well the e12 is about as good a amp as a person could ask for in a digital portable amp . Its distortion level is unparalled , and 850mw is like caring a scud missle in your pocket
> but what it cant do is take a pair of 99cent earbuds and make them sound like a set of five thousand dollar headphones its an amazing amp but its not magic
> you get what you pay for . But for as not turning the gain up the power of this beast is what makes her what she is along with clearity as well as others ect..... Just dont turn the volume up
> so loud it does my cans no justice with the gain turned down . Might as well buy a new corvette and pull out four of the spark plugs and expect that V8 to really move. Just try turning the gain up
> ...


 
   
  Don't shoot me, I'm only the messenger.
  The E12 is an analog amplifier. It appears to have a switch mode power supply in it, though.
  MOSFETs are really just a very specific transistor.
  The microchips in the E12 are filled with transistors.
  No offence, but if you beleive in burn in, then an E12 will burn in just like a MOSFET amp.
  And if you don't believe in burn in, I'm cool with that too.


----------



## miceblue

Yeah otherwise the line-out dock connection wouldn't work if it was a digital amp.


----------



## pietcux

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Don't shoot me, I'm only the messenger.
> The E12 is an analog amplifier. It appears to have a switch mode power supply in it, though.
> MOSFETs are really just a very specific transistor.
> The microchips in the E12 are filled with transistors.
> ...


 
  Yes the OAMPs are ICs, but the signal itself remains analog. And about burn in, my E12 sounded harsh compared to my Meier Stepdance at first, but it has gotten better and better over around 50 hours of usage up to now. I compare quite often, like 4 times a day.


----------



## Chris J

pietcux said:


> Yes the OAMPs are ICs, but the signal itself remains analog. And about burn in, my E12 sounded harsh compared to my Meier Stepdance at first, but it has gotten better and better over around 50 hours of usage up to now. I compare quite often, like 4 times a day.




Yep,,
Op Amps are analog amplifiers.


----------



## johnlittle879

Sorry that was directed to the guy talking bad about the E12 . I just dont like when poeple talk bad about stuff before they understand it .
  Just because someone likes hybrids dont mean they should hate on super cars . That amp was just to much for the guys setup . For a portable amp she does what i need


----------



## johnlittle879

I think i got close to a hundred hours on mine and she is just as good as when i got it . I know in car audio when the digital amps came out 
  they were supposed to be the best but true wattage kinda went out the window and the sound dulled as well . When we gaiged the new amps they didnt put out waht they claimed on the RMS end . They have gottin better in the last few years . The pocket amps are some what the same from the warm sounding tube amps to the newer micro chip transistor style.


----------



## miceblue

Yeah my E12 sounds just like when I first used it.


----------



## sbradley02

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Don't shoot me, I'm only the messenger.
> The E12 is an analog amplifier. It appears to have a switch mode power supply in it, though.
> MOSFETs are really just a very specific transistor.
> The microchips in the E12 are filled with transistors.
> ...


 
  The E12 has an 11.1V battery pack and uses a DC to DC converter (switch mode) to derive the -11.1V supply. 22V is a lot for a headphone amp which is one of the reasons it can drive difficult loads.


----------



## Chris J

sbradley02 said:


> The E12 has an 11.1V battery pack and uses a DC to DC converter (switch mode) to derive the -11.1V supply. 22V is a lot for a headphone amp which is one of the reasons it can drive difficult loads.




KK
Thanks.


----------



## Skolar311

This amp has done wonders for my HD600's, and it's beautifully built. It goes as loud as my Schiit Magni with the 16db gain boost on, and the sound quality is incredible. I know HD600's aren't the best choice for portable, but I listen in private a lot and I have had trouble finding a portable option that can power 300 Ohms easily. The E12 is more than enough juice for them! $129 is a steal.


----------



## rigodeni

Quote: 





benbenkr said:


> Does the E12 have enough power to drive a HD650 to its maximum potential?
> 
> Also, what about the wireless interference issue that some has been experiencing? Because if the E12 is going to be paired with a smartphone, then obviously... there's going to be interference. So, what's the take on this actually?


 
  I have the HD 600 with Fiio E11, from my ipod classic at 80% volume, I can't stand going beyond number 6 on the E11, and it goes up to 8. Normal listening for me is at 4.5, so only 60%. Considering the E12 has double the power (+16db vs +8db), you will have enough left over to do some serious damage.
   
  When using my Galaxy Nexus phone, I need to push the E11 to 90% for normal listening, as phones have considerably less output than iPod's. So if you plan to drive from phones, the extra power on the E12 will be useful.


----------



## Chris J

rigodeni said:


> I have the HD 600 with Fiio E11, from my ipod classic at 80% volume, I can't stand going beyond number 6 on the E11, and it goes up to 8. Normal listening for me is at 4.5, so only 60%. Considering the E12 has double the power (+16db vs +8db), you will have enough left over to do some serious damage.
> 
> When using my Galaxy Nexus phone, I need to push the E11 to 90% for normal listening, as phones have considerably less output than iPod's. So if you plan to drive from phones, the extra power on the E12 will be useful.




The E12 has 8 dB more gain.
This is voltage gain, not power gain.
Because it has more gain, it does not necessarily follow that it has more power.


----------



## sbradley02

Quote: 





chris j said:


> The E12 has 8 dB more gain.
> This is voltage gain, not power gain.
> Because it has more gain, it does not necessarily follow that it has more power.


 
  True, but it happens in actuality to come out pretty close to the same as the previous poster assumed.
  At 32 ohms the E12 has around 7dB more power than the E11.


----------



## rigodeni

Quote: 





sbradley02 said:


> True, but it happens in actuality to come out pretty close to the same as the previous poster assumed.
> At 32 ohms the E12 has around 7dB more power than the E11.


 
  I am considering getting the Beyerdynamic DT880 600ohm, primarily for desktop use, but I may want to lounge at home with it. I noticed Fiio reccomends a maximum of 300ohm for the E12. But seeing as I find the E11 suitable enough for my 300ohm, despite the reccomended 150ohm max, I figure the E12 should do just fine with 600ohm. What do you think?


----------



## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





rigodeni said:


> I am considering getting the Beyerdynamic DT880 600ohm, primarily for desktop use, but I may want to lounge at home with it. I noticed Fiio reccomends a maximum of 300ohm for the E12. But seeing as I find the E11 suitable enough for my 300ohm, despite the reccomended 150ohm max, I figure the E12 should do just fine with 600ohm. What do you think?


 
   
Just for your reference. *Tips on how to choose a **suitable amplifier **for **your beloved headphone*
   
E12 should has enough power to drive DT880 600Ohms, but it also depened on your feeling too.


----------



## rigodeni

The 600 ohm version does not seem to be on that list, but I think I will just give them a try with my E11 first. That will give me an idea of how much they really need.


----------



## Chris J

rigodeni said:


> I am considering getting the Beyerdynamic DT880 600ohm, primarily for desktop use, but I may want to lounge at home with it. I noticed Fiio reccomends a maximum of 300ohm for the E12. But seeing as I find the E11 suitable enough for my 300ohm, despite the reccomended 150ohm max, I figure the E12 should do just fine with 600ohm. What do you think?



 
 Deleted: Never mind. Getting my threads mixed up!


----------



## Chris J

sbradley02 said:


> True, but it happens in actuality to come out pretty close to the same as the previous poster assumed.
> At 32 ohms the E12 has around 7dB more power than the E11.



 
 But this isn't because the E12 has more gain. It's because the E12 can output more voltage than the E11.


----------



## martybm5

Quote: 





rigodeni said:


> I am considering getting the Beyerdynamic DT880 600ohm, primarily for desktop use, but I may want to lounge at home with it. I noticed Fiio reccomends a maximum of 300ohm for the E12. But seeing as I find the E11 suitable enough for my 300ohm, despite the reccomended 150ohm max, I figure the E12 should do just fine with 600ohm. What do you think?


 
  The E12 has enough to push my Mad Dogs (a modified version of the Fostex T50RP) which typically take a lot of power to sound really good. I'm sure it would be more than enough for your 600ohm DT880


----------



## rigodeni

Quote: 





martybm5 said:


> The E12 has enough to push my Mad Dogs (a modified version of the Fostex T50RP) which typically take a lot of power to sound really good. I'm sure it would be more than enough for your 600ohm DT880


 
  Good to know, thanks.


----------



## zzffnn

James,
How can I tell if an E12 is the first batch? Does E12's first batch end at a certain serial number? I am looking for a first batch E12 as I like its bass boost frequency better. Thank you!

Edit: Thanks James for your reply in PM.


----------



## sbradley02

chris j said:


> But this isn't because the E12 has more gain.It's because the E12 can output more voltage than the E11.




Yep. Just thought it was interesting that the additional power headroom was about equal to the difference in gain. BTW I need the +16dB setting to drive my orthos loud enough for my tastes.


----------



## Chris J

sbradley02 said:


> Yep. Just thought it was interesting that the additional power headroom was about equal to the difference in gain. BTW I need the +16dB setting to drive my orthos loud enough for my tastes.




Ahhhhhh..........OK. I see.

I set gain to 16 dB for my 600 Ohm DT880.
I think I've posted this before, but after 3,500 posts I can't remember!


----------



## Allucid

jamesfiio said:


> *[COLOR=B22222]The official introduction of Mont Blanc[/COLOR]*



Hi James. I was wondering if there was anywhere I could buy the Mont Blanc that would ship to Australia.


----------



## scolaiw

Quote: 





allucid said:


> Hi James. I was wondering if there was anywhere I could buy the Mont Blanc that would ship to Australia.


 

 The guys at A2A will set you up for $129 AUD and free express shipping via Aus Post. 

http://www.addictedtoaudio.com.au/FiiO-E12-Mont-Blanc-Portable-Headphone-Amplifier


----------



## howdy

I picked up the Fiio e12 recently to mainly go with my ipod classic as I prefer the sound LOD,  at first I tried it with my GR07s and I was not very happy, I than tried it with my Shure se 215s and holy moly they sound better than ever. Another reason was to try it with my X3 as James says a lot of people in China swear by the combo.


----------



## ducatirob

I still want a version 1 E12 with the different bass boost frequency !!  Yes, I can eq the bass in other ways but I have heard the v1 boost is sublime. Are there any available? Can I modify my v2? Should I go on a hunger strike until FiiO makes this available again?


----------



## Chris J

ducatirob said:


> I still want a version 1 E12 with the different bass boost frequency !!  Yes, I can eq the bass in other ways but I have heard the v1 boost is sublime. Are there any available? Can I modify my v2? Should I go on a hunger strike until FiiO makes this available again?



 
 I strongly suspect the legendary bass boost of V1 is grossly exaggerated. Nothing you can't duplicate with software EQ.


----------



## sbradley02

Quote: 





howdy said:


> I picked up the Fiio e12 recently to mainly go with my ipod classic as I prefer the sound LOD,  at first I tried it with my GR07s and I was not very happy, I than tried it with my Shure se 215s and holy moly they sound better than ever. Another reason was to try it with my X3 as James says a lot of people in China swear by the combo.


 

 I amazed at the sound quality of my F3/E12 combo. For the first time I have portable SQ approaching that of my desktop setup, and all for only $330. Thanks Fiio!


----------



## Skolar311

Quote: 





chris j said:


> I strongly suspect the legendary bass boost of V1 is grossly exaggerated.Nothing you can't duplicate with software EQ.


 
   
  I'm going to go with this.
   
  Any time something is given, then taken away, people think it was the best ever....(Like McRib. Barf.... )
   
  It was probably scratched for a reason, and personally I think the E12 bass boost is already sublime. It depends a lot on your DAC.


----------



## Evshrug

skolar311 said:


> I'm going to go with this.
> 
> Any time something is given, then taken away, people think it was the best ever....(Like McRib. Barf.... )
> 
> It was probably scratched for a reason, and personally I think the E12 bass boost is already sublime. It depends a lot on your DAC.



Eh, never said the current bass boost was bad, I personally haven't heard it. Pretty sure the reason the original configuration was "scratched" was because the first reviews clearly stated it was subtle and not noticeable in every song, and then a couple of people on head-Fi (who hadn't heard it) and in china, I think, said the boost ought to always make a noticeable difference. I think a lot of people expect that, but weren't excited about a bass boost that was more about bass extension.
Personally, bass extension was what attracted me to the amp in the first place (well, also I needed a compact, refined amp with enough power I wouldn't need to upgrade for a long time for power's sake), and far as I know the bass boost was uniquely "aimed" for an amp "bonus feature." It's an easier way for me to counter sub-bass roll-off than Rockboxing my iPod, or tethering to a computer. With my E5 (first amp), I switched on and off the bass boost all the time for different songs till eventually I just left it off due to slight bass bleed, but when I actually tested the E12 I was pleased that I could basically leave it on for any song to improve the "atmosphere" without messing up the master mix or detail.

It wasn't taken away from me, and right now it's my fav feature of the amp. I wouldn't bother with using it with a closed headphone with good bass extension already, but with open headphones it seems tailor-made to counter sub-bass roll off. If someone is interested in "more bass," the current version is more noticeable and appropriate.
McRibs were always kinda "meh" after the first time I tasted them, but the BBQ pulled pork at Subway is awesome!


----------



## waynes world

evshrug said:


> *It wasn't taken away from me, and right now it's my fav feature of the amp. I wouldn't bother with using it with a closed headphone with good bass extension already, but with open headphones it seems tailor-made to counter sub-bass roll off.* If someone is interested in "more bass," the current version is more noticeable and appropriate.
> McRibs were always kinda "meh" after the first time I tasted them, but the BBQ pulled pork at Subway is awesome!


 
  
 Yup! My E12 (which happens to be the initial version) is definitely tailor made for my open headphones. Love it.


----------



## howdy

sbradley02 said:


> I amazed at the sound quality of my F3/E12 combo. For the first time I have portable SQ approaching that of my desktop setup, and all for only $330. Thanks Fiio!


 
  
 I finally listened to the duo and was amazed at how those two sound together (X3/E12). I listened to them with my shure se215s and it REALLY brings them to life. What a great combo!!


----------



## Evshrug

waynes world said:


> Yup! My E12 (which happens to be the initial version) is definitely tailor made for my open headphones. Love it.



I mean, I've been reading this thread for a while (not as often lately), I haven't seen anyone who heard the initial version say they didn't like it. Just when people like me said in our reviews that the amp is very clean, this feature, that feature, bass boost is neat but someone looking to transform headphones into bass monsters should look elsewhere, suddenly we had a couple people posting on that point and saying (unauditioned) that they wanted more bass. I actually counted at one point, the people asking for more were outnumbered by the people who said they liked it or wanted to keep it the same, so I can only assume there were a ton of people in china who really petitioned for more bass. 

Funny thing, what they got wasn't actually "more" bass, just that the +6 dB boosted peak moved from the sub-bass up to a higher frequency with the same +6 dB boost. So, it now boosts the same mid-bass area that most headphones already have a "hump" at in their frequency response charts, but I guess for many people that boosting mid-bass even further above the recorded level is what they want. They're entitled to that taste, but to me that boost just seems so common as what I could get with so many other amps, "I" thought the E12 was unique and novel for having a sub-bass tweak that helps where most open headphones frequency response drops below the "neutral" recorded level of a song mix, and do it in such a way that the bass didn't bleed over other notes or mess with the rest of a headphone's frequency response.

A digital EQ could "basically" be targeted to have the same effect, but there does seem to be a benefit to applying the boost at the analogue stage instead, and I'm not going to hack my iPod to get computer EQ controls. It's a personal benefit; when I first got the E12 I just needed a powerful, versatile, low distortion amp, but now that I have a few amps, the unique bass boost is the only reason I've kept the Mont Blanc.


----------



## ducatirob

These descriptions of the original E12 make my desire to replace my version 2 even stronger.


----------



## Evshrug

Just manage expectations... And also remember, many songs don't reach down into sub-bass ranges at all. But when they do, or a movie/game does, bass extension improves.


----------



## pngwn

Most songs don't really reach that low, true, but I find that engaging the E12 v1 bass boost does result in a "fuller" sound. YMMV depending on the track/movie/game/etc, but that's been my experience. I keep it on most of the time for that reason, which is why I love the v1 boost: it's very unintrusive and adds some weight to the bottom of the spectrum. For the ATH-AD Air series, it's a very welcome enhancement to their already very airy sound and somewhat hollow bottom.


----------



## zzffnn

James,

Would Fiio produce a new batch of E12 that has v1/batch 1 bass boost (DEEP bass boost that does not go over 100Hz). There were only 200-300 pieces of batch 1, correct?

How many pieces of batch 2/3 has Fiio released? I am guessing a lot more than 300? The mass-produced batch 2/3 E12s, which offer "more" bass, should have made enough bassheads happy. 

Maybe now is time to make another batch for audiophiles who prefer flat bass with tight boost below 100 Hz (like what batch 1 offers).

Most good headphones don't lack bass above 100 Hz. Below 100 Hz, some sub bass boost is really helpful for lots of open headphones (e.g., HD600, DT880, K/Q/701/702, Grados, some Sony, open ATHs).

Batch 2/3 E12's bass boost, which goes above and beyond 100 Hz, may change music too much and cause bloat / reduce clarity.

Like you hinted before in this thread, if huge bass is needed, better approach is using bassy/huge driver headphones like Sony XB700/1000, rather than boosting through DAP/amp.


----------



## akarise

Does there happen to be a difference in bass boost between batch 2 and 3 or do they both fall under the v2 version?


----------



## pngwn

What is this batch 3...?


----------



## zzffnn

akarise said:


> Does there happen to be a difference in bass boost between batch 2 and 3 or do they both fall under the v2 version?




I heard whatever after batch 2 has v2 bass boost, which may be too much (+6db at 100 Hz)IIRC. 

If you want bass boost that is tight and deep (boost +5db below 60 Hz and neutral at 100 Hz or above), it is safe to go with batch 1 (which has "10 0" above "Gain (db)").


----------



## miceblue

I have the latest batch 4. It definitely sounds better than the batch 2. /s


----------



## Evshrug

miceblue said:


> I have the latest batch 4. It definitely sounds better than the batch 2. /s


Care to qualify or quantify how so?


----------



## zzffnn

miceblue said:


> I have the latest batch 4. It definitely sounds better than the batch 2. /s




^ I would not take the above comment seriously, unless I hear it from James Fiio or see measurements. What do you mean by "sounds better"? That is a rather vague term.


----------



## Chris J

evshrug said:


> Care to qualify or quantify how so?





He's joking, mate!

/s


----------



## miceblue

Yeah, the ridiculousness of the different versions is incredible.


----------



## zzffnn

miceblue said:


> Yeah, the ridiculousness of the different versions is incredible.




You should read what James Fiio said re batch 1 vs batch 2 -- they are quite different in terms of bass boost spec. ClieOS measured a batch 1 E12 and confirmed Fiio's spec. Search within this thread using key word "batch" and read James' post. 

I am not sure there was batch 3 or 4, but batch 1 and 2 have different bass boost for sure. I personally don't find anything ridiculous there. Batch 2 bass boost was implemented differently to please bassheads or mass market.


----------



## miceblue

Yeah I am well aware of the v1 vs v2 differences. I own a v2 myself.
  
 Quote:


miceblue said:


> Honestly I think we should stop talking about V1 and V2. Only a few limited people got the V1 so when V1 vs V2 is discussed, it'll likely confuse the readers, and most likely not even apply for a potential buyer.


 
  
 Soon we'll be seeing v5s with a +50 dB bass boost centered at around 0.5 Hz


----------



## waynes world

Deleted.


----------



## zzffnn

@ miceblue,

There were >= 200 pices of V1 per James. I won't call 200 "a few". It applies to a buyer, if he knows the difference, prefers v1 and finds one. No confusion to speak of if a reader does his/her research homework. 

No I won't buy your v5, I just want a v1


----------



## ducatirob

If fiio is listening, I will commit right now to buy another e12 if I can get the v1 bass boost. For some reason the boost on the e11 I replaced was much more useful. I am intrigued that your batch 4 sounds better. What improvements do you hear?


----------



## Evshrug

Miceblue,
Oh. Wasn't that clear you were kidding, I don't read the thread as often, but it did seem odd coming from you.

Ducati,
I think the "batch 4" was a joke, I mean I'm sure FiiO has continued manufacturing the amps, but they haven't made/announced significant tweaks since the beginning. I understand what you mean about your interest, but though the boost is a little different between first models and subsequent mass market, the amp as a whole ought to sound the same.


----------



## pngwn

AFAIK, only 2 batches of production exist: pre-order v1 with lower freq bass boost and mass production v2 with "standard" bass boost. There is also the DIY version, but idk if Id count that as a entire batch or if it's even out yet.


----------



## ducatirob

I'm  a little gullible sometimes. Thanks for setting me straight.


----------



## Evshrug

It got me off guard too, no biggie.


----------



## howdy

ducatirob said:


> If fiio is listening, I will commit right now to buy another e12 if I can get the v1 bass boost. For some reason the boost on the e11 I replaced was much more useful. I am intrigued that your batch 4 sounds better. What improvements do you hear?



There seems to be a V1 for sale here on headfi about once a month.


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

If it's any consolation, I really like the bass boost on the newer E12. Isn't it aimed at 50hz? That's not too high up.


----------



## zzffnn

mad lust envy said:


> If it's any consolation, I really like the bass boost on the newer E12. Isn't it aimed at 50hz? That's not too high up.




http://www.fiio.com.cn/products/index.aspx?ID=100000038732625&MenuID=105026001

Fiio's official spec says +4.2db at 100Hz , which I assume is what the newer batch does. Based on Fiio's graph, bass boost before 100 Hz should be even higher than +4.2 db.

However, Fiio's graph might not be updated to reflect batch 2 bass boost (it is contradictory to spec's +4.2db@100Hz). It shows a +2db@100Hz, which seems to be that of batch 1 bass boost. 

ClieOS measured a batch 1 bass boost here and showed a graph similar to Fiio's: http://www.inearmatters.net/2013/03/impression-fiio-e12-mont-blanc-way-to.html?m=1
ClieOS also indicated that batch 2 bass boost will be broader and less deep/tight.


----------



## Evshrug

Yeah, it's not that high. Subwoofers usually crossover (in?) at around 80-100 Hz depending on personal settings in a home theater, for reference. I haven't heard the new E12, and while I stick to liking what I'm hearing, I doubt that they're Really changed. Lets try it from this angle... Anyone with a current E12, have you noticed that turning on the bass boost over did it for a particular song compared to "off?"


----------



## miceblue

I don't like the bass boost all that much...it seems to bleed into the midrange and raises the overall volume level.


----------



## zzffnn

miceblue said:


> I don't like the bass boost all that much...it seems to bleed into the midrange and raises the overall volume level.




I don't like bass boost bleeding into mid range either, which is why I prefer boost to subside before 100Hz (if I have to use boost). Your batch 2's boost bleeds a lot more than that of batch one.


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

It depends on what headphone is used. I liked it with the MA900 on bass light music, but not bass heavy music (which the MA900 sounds fine at default). I hated the bass boost with the X1, but that's because the bass is already quite prominent.


----------



## waynes world

I love the bass boost with my X1's, but that's possibly due to having batch 16


----------



## howdy

I use the bass boost with my shire se215 but with my primary IEM the GR07 be I keep it off. Anyone else here use this with there Fiio X3?


----------



## Rebkos

Heh, i got so used to E12 in my setup, that today when amps battery unexpectedly died I was just completely stunned by how bad it actually sounded without it :-D


----------



## sbradley02

If there is ever a successor to the E12 it would be nice if it employed a DC servo so it would get around having to use coupling caps (I am presuming that is what the two 2.2uF polyester caps are)


----------



## Chris J

sbradley02 said:


> If there is ever a successor to the E12 it would be nice if it employed a DC servo so it would get around having to use coupling caps (I am presuming that is what the two 2.2uF polyester caps are)


 
  
 That's awfully small for output coupling caps!
 They are Probably power supply bypass caps for noise suppression..


----------



## sbradley02

chris j said:


> That's awfully small for output coupling caps!
> They are Probably power supply bypass caps for noise suppression..


 
 Good point, I should have caught that 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Actually I think they may be inter-stage coupling caps. 2.2uF is about right for that.
  
 Maybe James will comment.


----------



## ducatirob

Fiio says 50hz V1 20hz


----------



## waynes world

ducatirob said:


> Fiio says 50hz V1 20hz


 
  
 I think you are referring to the bass boost.
  
 Here's a link to the FR graphs that James provided earlier relating to the initial batch's bass boost versus how it was going to be (and how it was) changed:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/620339/fiio-flagship-portable-amp-mont-blanc-e12-discussing-thread-the-pre-order-unit-arrives/1005#post_9132609


----------



## ducatirob

The difference sounds much more significant than it looks


----------



## sbradley02

waynes world said:


> I think you are referring to the bass boost.
> 
> Here's a link to the FR graphs that James provided earlier relating to the initial batch's bass boost versus how it was going to be (and how it was) changed:
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/620339/fiio-flagship-portable-amp-mont-blanc-e12-discussing-thread-the-pre-order-unit-arrives/1005#post_9132609


 
 And this confirms what folks are saying. The knee frequency has gone up by almost an octave.


----------



## jazzman7

Some more frequency response fun for the E12.
  
 1)  ClieOS's review of E12 v1 ("first batch" or initial production run).  Note how the frequency response curve matches that James provided on the first units in the post quoted by waynes world:  
  
 http://www.inearmatters.net/2013/03/impression-fiio-e12-mont-blanc-way-to.html
  
 2)  Jensigner's comparison of E12 v2 (regular production) and the E17.  This curve goes below 20Hz.  Note how the natural response of the E12 starts to fall off at around 30 Hz, and the v2 bass boost puts its maximum gain at 50 Hz but with a steeper rolloff below that, so that the gain at 10Hz is down 3dB from 20Hz when the bass boost is on.  
  
 http://www.jensign.com/FiiOE17/BodePlots/index.html
  
 In fact, it looks like the E12 bass boost on the production run units would probably sound similar to that of the E17 with bass control at +4dB.   The hinge frequency of the E17 tone controls and E12 production bass boost look to be about the same.  ClieOS has done the frequency sweeps for the E17 with full bass boost (+10dB), so I'm guessing a bit here on what +4dB would do, taking into account the frequency tilt of the E12.
  
 http://www.inearmatters.net/2012/01/impression-fiio-e17-alpen.html
  
 Actually, if I had an E12 production model, I'd try the listening test myself (I've got the E12 v1 and the E17). 
  
 EDIT:  Tyll's July 2013 amp data sheet  on innerfidelity.com also shows the rolloff below 20Hz for the E12.  It is pretty obvious when comparing it to the other amps in the data sheet stack.


----------



## sbradley02

As an aside, if one is good at desoldering/soldering SM components, I am guessing that changing 2 or 4 components would get you to batch 1 specs, if James were willing to provide the info (and all at your risk of course). I could be wrong and more than just the values are changed.
 I have done some SM work, it is not too hideously hard but it is fiddly...


----------



## Evshrug

chris j said:


> That's awfully small for output coupling caps!
> They are Probably power supply bypass caps for noise suppression..



Whatever provides the noise suppression, it does a pretty good job IMO.



ducatirob said:


> The difference sounds much more significant than it looks



Oh? I kinda assumed it was the other way around. I haven't heard the "mass production" model, but I assumed it was a minor change to suit tastes.



sbradley02 said:


> As an aside, if one is good at desoldering/soldering SM components, I am guessing that changing 2 or 4 components would get you to batch 1 specs, if James were willing to provide the info (and all at your risk of course). I could be wrong and more than just the values are changed.
> I have done some SM work, it is not too hideously hard but it is fiddly...



There originally was talk from FiiO about a DIY or modder's version.


----------



## pngwn

You talking about this one? Unfortunately, it seems orders closed on Sept 10.


----------



## Evshrug

Yeah that's what I meant, didn't realize it would be an upgraded limited edition. I thought it was going to be actually DIY without included buffers or OP-AMP, instead of a custom upgrade. I notice they took out the boost and Crossfade function, sounds like a fine trade for "improved performance." I bet there are some very happy pre-orderers out there.


----------



## pngwn

I considered pre-ordering after loving the E12 so much, but with my limited (read: non existent) knowledge of any of the technological jargon regarding the innards of FiiO's flagship amp, I held back. Kinda wondering how much I might miss out :x


----------



## Evshrug

Well... $80 built-to-order OP amps, circuit board cleared of special effects (bass boost and crossfeed) to make more space for wiring improvements (??), new color... Probably an improvement, though for $200 you could still get great desktop amps of comparable quality.


----------



## widds2v

I think I may have gotten a bad unit... which I hate because it completely ruins a brand for me heh. 
  
 Got the E12 in today, first I brought it over to my PC and plugged the included charging cable into my USB and proceeded to charge it. Light goes red on the battery indicator, starts pulsing slowly, then faster, then pulses super quick (a few times per second). The small instruction manual states if this happens to try a different charging method that offers over 2 amps of flow. So I tried it on my small cube iPhone charger, same thing, noticed that is only a 1 amp charger though. Found one of my older larger brick iPhone chargers which is rated to 2.1 amps and plugged it in.. same issue.
  
 The other issue is the rapid pulses of beeps/squelches when I plug a pair of headphones in and it is charging, which is odd because it says you can use it while charging.. so I'm not sure what the issue could be there.
  
 Has anyone had luck with troubleshooting with FiiO or RMA'ing something back to them, seeing as they are an overseas business?
  
 edit: So if I turn the volume on knob before plugging in the power the light will pulse slowly like normal I assume. I'll leave it like that for a bit and see if it holds a charge.


----------



## ducatirob

FiiO is a very reputable company. If the vendor through which you purchased your E12 does not resolve your issue, I am confident they will make it right.


----------



## howdy

widds2v said:


> I think I may have gotten a bad unit... which I hate because it completely ruins a brand for me heh.
> 
> Got the E12 in today, first I brought it over to my PC and plugged the included charging cable into my USB and proceeded to charge it. Light goes red on the battery indicator, starts pulsing slowly, then faster, then pulses super quick (a few times per second). The small instruction manual states if this happens to try a different charging method that offers over 2 amps of flow. So I tried it on my small cube iPhone charger, same thing, noticed that is only a 1 amp charger though. Found one of my older larger brick iPhone chargers which is rated to 2.1 amps and plugged it in.. same issue.
> 
> ...



So you bought directly from Fiio? Email them and see if they will cross ship you one. You will really enjoy this if you get one that works, so try and hold out a little longer.


----------



## widds2v

howdy said:


> So you bought directly from Fiio? Email them and see if they will cross ship you one. You will really enjoy this if you get one that works, so try and hold out a little longer.


 
  
 No I bought it from Headroom


----------



## howdy

widds2v said:


> No I bought it from Headroom



If you go to there website and look at product returns and exchanges and see defective, call the number provided and they will ups one to yo right away.
8008288184 there is the number. I think you should give it another try you will like it, it makes my iPod sound amazing with my se215s.


----------



## widds2v

howdy said:


> If you go to there website and look at product returns and exchanges and see defective, call the number provided and they will ups one to yo right away.
> 8008288184 there is the number. I think you should give it another try you will like it, it makes my iPod sound amazing with my se215s.


 
  
 Thanks for the info. I'll let this keep charging a bit and see if anything changes and if not give them a call tomorrow.


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

If defective products ruined brands for me... I'd hate quite a few companies. You can't expect perfection every time. Fiio overall has been exceptional to me. Even after owning higher end products, I know I can go back to Fiio for affordable, yet high quality goods. I'm currently on my 3rd E17, and all three have been perfect. After owning two E5s, E7, E9, E9K, three E17s, E12, D3, D03K, only the D3 crapped out on me.


----------



## Makiah S

chris j said:


> Not a very fair comparison, but my Matrix M Stage sounds clearer, fuller and more detailed than my E12.
> Not very fair because the Matrix costs twice as much and is also a desktop amp.




eww if ur matrix with stock op amp sounds better than the e12 im rather glad i got a pb1 over it


----------



## starfly

mad lust envy said:


> If defective products ruined brands for me... I'd hate quite a few companies. You can't expect perfection every time. Fiio overall has been exceptional to me. Even after owning higher end products, I know I can go back to Fiio for affordable, yet high quality goods. I'm currently on my 3rd E17, and all three have been perfect. After owning two E5s, E7, E9, E9K, three E17s, E12, D3, D03K, only the D3 crapped out on me.


 
  
 If you don't mind me asking, why is it that you're on your third E17?


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

I'm a bit impulsive. back when I got my first one, I sold it off to fund for something else. Same with the second. This time, I'll be keeping the E17 until Fiio releases one with the power of the E12.


----------



## MrScratch

> Originally Posted by *widds2v* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> The other issue is the rapid pulses of beeps/squelches when I plug a pair of headphones in and it is charging, which is odd because it says you can use it while charging.. so I'm not sure what the issue could be there.


 
  
 That's normal, the E12 has no shielding whatsoever on the USB input. The noise is coming from your computer electronics, mine does the same, too. On the other hand, it's almost silent when attached to a wall charger... Actually it's dead silent at safe listening levels, I can still hear some noise (like a really faint hiss) only if I turn the volume knob towards MAX (with no music playing), however I simply can't listen to music in this state as my ears would explode along with the headphone drivers.


----------



## Evshrug

mrscratch said:


> That's normal, the E12 has no shielding whatsoever on the USB input. The noise is coming from your computer electronics, mine does the same, too. On the other hand, it's almost silent when attached to a wall charger... Actually it's dead silent at safe listening levels, I can still hear some noise (like a really faint hiss) only if I turn the volume knob towards MAX (with no music playing), however I simply can't listen to music in this state as my ears would explode along with the headphone drivers.




2x this experience, even plugging in the USB to mains power (the wall) or a power strip creates noise artifacts. This is just the cost of charging a battery while using the power. I just don't use mine while charging. Yours should've arrived with a fair bit of charge on it, did you listen before plugging in? Also, the manual states that there could be an error if it blinks very fast, but quicker pulsing usually just means it's connected to a power source that will charge it faster. Look up the smart charging circuit in your manual, widds2v.

Not saying it couldn't be defective, but I am saying it may be operating normally. I just don't recommend using it like a desktop amp always plugged into the wall.


----------



## widds2v

evshrug said:


> 2x this experience, even plugging in the USB to mains power (the wall) or a power strip creates noise artifacts. This is just the cost of charging a battery while using the power. I just don't use mine while charging. Yours should've arrived with a fair bit of charge on it, did you listen before plugging in? Also, the manual states that there could be an error if it blinks very fast, but quicker pulsing usually just means it's connected to a power source that will charge it faster. Look up the smart charging circuit in your manual, widds2v.
> 
> Not saying it couldn't be defective, but I am saying it may be operating normally. I just don't recommend using it like a desktop amp always plugged into the wall.


 
  
 No it's definitely defective. Sending it back to Headroom.. they gave me a shipping label to send it back. It holds zero charge. I can leave it plugged in for six hours, unplug it and it wont turn on.


----------



## Evshrug

Hod yeah, no charge = defective under manufacturer's warranty, DOA apparently.


----------



## Allucid

Bought the mont blanc. Without it my M100s sound lighter. Only can hear a little difference between the two. Considering a return, if allowed by Addicted To Audio.


----------



## pngwn

Between the two of what?


----------



## Allucid

Between non-amped ipod and amped ipod.


----------



## martybm5

I believe you will notice a difference if you have a higher quality amp. The M100's are so efficient, they really dont need amping, but when I did try them on a very clean amp the sound was amazing and it made a huge difference. 

To me, the E12 is more suited for hard to drive/power hungry headphones versus efficient cans or IEM's.

My .02


----------



## DeeToti

allucid said:


> Between non-amped ipod and amped ipod.


 
 Try the C5 or O2. I have heard people saying both of them work fine with M-100


----------



## Allucid

martybm5 said:


> I believe you will notice a difference if you have a higher quality amp. The M100's are so efficient, they really dont need amping, but when I did try them on a very clean amp the sound was amazing and it made a huge difference.
> 
> To me, the E12 is more suited for hard to drive/power hungry headphones versus efficient cans or IEM's.
> 
> My .02





deetoti said:


> allucid said:
> 
> 
> > Between non-amped ipod and amped ipod.
> ...



Not spending any more money on audio equipment this year. 
See image:





Also you guys should of been around to tell me this earlier. :/ 

It's weird. The amp changes tiny details, then switch a song, and BAM. The whole song benefits. 
Yeah, it's a good amp, but I need to return it if I can / resell it as it doesn't work as good for fine-tuned headphones like V-Moda.


----------



## howdy

allucid said:


> Not spending any more money on audio equipment this year.
> See image:
> 
> 
> ...



Let me know if you make it the rest of the year, I tell myself this is the last thing for awhile and I think I've made it about a month or so.


----------



## Allucid

howdy said:


> allucid said:
> 
> 
> > Not spending any more money on audio equipment this year.
> ...



I don't need any more audio equipment, besides a refund of the mont blanc or a impedance adapter. I'll be fine lol.


----------



## pngwn

Yeah I wouldn't have recommended the E12 for an efficient low impedance high sensitivity bass can like the M100. Maybe the JDS C5?


----------



## Allucid

pngwn said:


> Yeah I wouldn't have recommended the E12 for an efficient low impedance high sensitivity bass can like the M100. Maybe the JDS C5?



Bleh. I'm not buying any more amps, lmao. I already have two.
As I said, I should of started a thread on what would be the best amp for my headphones, not what is an upgrade from my E17. 
Thing is, I bought the E12 based on the experience I had with my E17 x LP2 combo.


----------



## pietcux

I have the E12 to drive my Ultrasone Signature Dj. First I thought the same as you. I had the feeling that my Ipod Classic last gen is better without it. But after some time it got better and better. You also might want to give the E12 more time to open up. James from Fiio claimed at least 40 hours of burn in to make the E12 shine. The Sig Dj is easy to drive like the M100, but the amp helps a lot to make the Ipod sound much more dynamic. Bass gets more substantial, sound stage more stable and nuances in the sound get more obvious to the listener. Only my Meier Audio Stepdance is even better in all regards by a good margin, but it is much more expensive than the E12. On the go/ at work, I now use the E12 only. The Stepdance is my desktop amp for more undisturbed and longer listening sessions.


----------



## Allucid

pietcux said:


> I have the E12 to drive my Ultrasone Signature Dj. First I thought the same as you. I had the feeling that my Ipod Classic last gen is better without it. But after some time it got better and better. You also might want to give the E12 more time to open up. James from Fiio claimed at least 40 hours of burn in to make the E12 shine. The Sig Dj is easy to drive like the M100, but the amp helps a lot to make the Ipod sound much more dynamic. Bass gets more substantial, sound stage more stable and nuances in the sound get more obvious to the listener. Only my Meier Audio Stepdance is even better in all regards by a good margin, but it is much more expensive than the E12. On the go/ at work, I now use the E12 only. The Stepdance is my desktop amp for more undisturbed and longer listening sessions.



Ah, okay. I'll keep it for a week or so, probably used it for a listening time of 4-5hrs. 
But as I said, my headphones are a lower impedance than the amp. Tried my E17 with my M100s, only a little difference. 

The E12 is amazing on vocal / drumbeat songs of a certain note, amplifies what's already there. 
Seems I'm stuck with the amp - seller will only refund for store credit. 
I need an impedance adapter, can't find any on head-fi's store.

I'm really skeptical about this amp. I've probably used my E17 for way longer than 40 hours, and it doesn't do much for my M100s. It does help my LP2s, I'll have to get all the amps / headphones I have, have a listen to all. 

Will a LOD help with the amp for better sound?


----------



## pngwn

An LOD would be even less of a night and day difference, but there would be some improvement if you listened for it. For the M100 and E12, I would recomened finding an LOD that is silver or maybe silver plated copper; pure copper would be too warm and do little to compliment your headphone/amp combo.


----------



## sbradley02

allucid said:


> But as I said, my headphones are a lower impedance than the amp. Tried my E17 with my M100s, only a little difference.
> 
> The E12 is amazing on vocal / drumbeat songs of a certain note, amplifies what's already there.
> Seems I'm stuck with the amp - seller will only refund for store credit.
> I need an impedance adapter, can't find any on head-fi's store.


 
 OK, I have to ask. The amp has an output impedance of <0.5 ohm. Any 'phone will have an impedance many times higher.
 Why do you need an impedance adapter? What are you trying to accomplish?


----------



## pngwn

sbradley02 said:


> allucid said:
> 
> 
> > But as I said, my headphones are a lower impedance than the amp. Tried my E17 with my M100s, only a little difference.
> ...




Come to think of it, I'm wondering the same thing. The E17 has very low output impedance -- certainly lower than the M100's 32ohm impedance. The same applies to the E12. I fail to see why an impedance adapter would be needed for a mid-fi audio setup like yours.

Maybe you're expecting too much of or a different kind of change in sound quality from your amps? Not trying to sound rude, just frank. What exactly do you want your amps to accomplish with your M100? If you're searching for a drastically different sound, you might be better off just buying different headphones.


----------



## Allucid

pngwn said:


> sbradley02 said:
> 
> 
> > allucid said:
> ...







sbradley02 said:


> allucid said:
> 
> 
> > But as I said, my headphones are a lower impedance than the amp. Tried my E17 with my M100s, only a little difference.
> ...



I was recommended an impedance adapter by DrSheep as a way to get more out of my amp.
I wanted a better sound with my M100s. I use the Mont Blanc with the M100s, and the E17 with my LP2s.


----------



## Allucid

The reason I bought the Mont Blanc was because the E17 complemented my LP2s, improved them. 
@Pngpwn, I can't afford to buy new headphones, and I spent $90 on custom plates, lol.


----------



## sbradley02

allucid said:


> I was recommended an impedance adapter by DrSheep as a way to get more out of my amp.
> I wanted a better sound with my M100s. I use the Mont Blanc with the M100s, and the E17 with my LP2s.


 
 I see threads where these are mentioned but it is a misnomer.
  
 What people are doing is adding resistance to the amp output, similar to what Sunfire did for their "tube-like" outputs (I have one of these amps and I don't use the outputs that have resistors). Basically you are changing the system response characteristics by adding additional elements. This is a crap shoot, the only certain result is you will get less output power. I know some people like tweaks like these, but I feel the best bet is to try out different headphones and see which ones meet your listening requirements rather than trying to hack the response of what you have.
  
 Just my $0.02, YMMV
  
 If you still really want to try this out, the adapters are easy to build with basic soldering skills.


----------



## pngwn

Being that the M100 is a pretty efficient can, being driven by the E12 would only serve to provide a cleaner sound, imo. In what way did you expect an amp to make the M100 better?

For more power hungry cans, a powerful amp would do much more to deliver a more audible difference in quality. On the side of low impedance / high sensitivity cans, however, I feel like you won't really notice a great difference with stock amp settings until you start paying $300 or more for amping, and even then, it may only be somewhat subtle. Just my 2cents.

What reasoning did DrSheep give for needing an impedance adapter?

I second what sbradley said and re-iterate my previous post that you should just try new headphones if you're unhappy with your M100s. The biggest change in sound will come from the headphones themselves, and then subtly as your listen to them through different sources, amps, DACs, and cables.


----------



## Allucid

pngwn said:


> Being that the M100 is a pretty effecient can, being driven by the E12 would only serve to provide a cleaner sound. In what way did you expect an amp to make the M100 better?
> 
> For more power hungry cans, a powerful amp would do much more to deliver a more audible difference in quality. On the side of low impedance / high sensitivity cans, however, I feel like you won't really notice a great difference with stock amp settings until you start paying $300 or more for amping, and even then, it may only be somewhat subtle.
> 
> What reasoning did DrSheep give for needing an impedance adapter?



I forgot why, but I'm stuck with the amp, you're right about the clearer sound, drum beats etc are more audible.


----------



## pixelsphotopro

Is the a way to connect iPod Classic with LOD to E07k and E12 ?


----------



## miceblue

Yeah you need the L7 line out for the E07k though, unless you plan to double-amp the E07k and E12.
 http://www.amazon.com/FiiO-L7-Line-Dock-Cable/dp/B004QVNS0S/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1380133778&sr=8-1&keywords=fiio+l7
  
 iPod Classic -> LOD cable -> E07k -> L7 -> E12 -> headphones


----------



## pixelsphotopro

miceblue said:


> Yeah you need the L7 line out for the E07k though, unless you plan to double-amp the E07k and E12.
> http://www.amazon.com/FiiO-L7-Line-Dock-Cable/dp/B004QVNS0S/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1380133778&sr=8-1&keywords=fiio+l7
> 
> iPod Classic -> LOD cable -> E07k -> L7 -> E12 -> headphones


 
 I have the L7 , So iPod Classic -> LOD cable ->*3.5mm of iPod to* *what input of the* E07k -> L7 *with 3.5mm cable to E12 line IN* then headphones
  
 Or since my LOD is only disable the internal amp of the iPod, then I could plug the 3.5mm from the LOD cable directly to the E12 then my headphones ???


----------



## starfly

pixelsphotopro said:


> I have the L7 , So iPod Classic -> LOD cable ->*3.5mm of iPod to* *what input of the* E07k -> L7 *with 3.5mm cable to E12 line IN* then headphones
> 
> Or since my LOD is only disable the internal amp of the iPod, then I could plug the 3.5mm from the LOD cable directly to the E12 then my headphones ???


 
  
 What's the point of first running line-out to the E07k and then again line-out from the E07k to the E12? I would just do the line-out directly to the E12 and leave the E07k out of it.
  
 Remember, the LOD cable outputs an analog signal. So there's no need to use the E07k and E12 together. Pick only one.


----------



## pixelsphotopro

Thank you , that's what I'll do, now time to feel sorry for my pocket again lol and order the E12 and keep my E07K as my new sound card for my computer.


----------



## Allucid

miceblue said:


> Yeah you need the L7 line out for the E07k though, unless you plan to double-amp the E07k and E12.
> http://www.amazon.com/FiiO-L7-Line-Dock-Cable/dp/B004QVNS0S/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1380133778&sr=8-1&keywords=fiio+l7
> 
> iPod Classic -> LOD cable -> E07k -> L7 -> E12 -> headphones



L7 isn't the best. Go for an L3, L11 or L9.


----------



## pngwn

Just get a custom LOD. I mightve gotten a "bad" unit, but my L9 started malfunctioning just after a few weeks. Always babied it, didn't stress the cable. Bought a custom copper LOD a few months ago afterward and still using it nearly daily.

It doesn't have to be Fiio is what I'm trying to say.


----------



## pixelsphotopro

allucid said:


> L7 isn't the best. Go for an L3, L11 or L9.


 
  
 I'll go Ipod->LOD -> aux in of the E12 and use my E07K for my computer


----------



## Allucid

pngwn said:


> Just get a custom LOD. I mightve gotten a "bad" unit, but my L9 started malfunctioning just after a few weeks. Always babied it, didn't stress the cable. Bought a custom copper LOD a few months ago afterward and still using it nearly daily.
> 
> It doesn't have to be Fiio is what I'm trying to say.



Where can I buy a custom one?


----------



## Change is Good

I go Walkman>LOD>E12 and have no complaints


----------



## sbradley02

allucid said:


> I forgot why, but I'm stuck with the amp, you're right about the clearer sound, drum beats etc are more audible.


 
  
 If you want to read more, see this article: 
http://www.head-fi.org/t/601669/impedance-adapters-cables-explained-listed
  
 Look at ChrisJ's post which pretty much sums up what we have been saying:
 "Broadly speaking, if you have a good, low impedance desktop amp and you are using 32 ohm Grados or 600 ohm Beyers or anything in between, then you do not need an "impedance adaptor"."
  
 Note that the E12 has a very low output impedance.
  
 I see no point for an "impedance adapter" in this case since you aren't using IEMs.


----------



## Rebkos

allucid said:


> Where can I buy a custom one?


 
  
 I bought this one 
  
http://www.ebay.com/itm/281142485775
  
 very good handwork. The seller have some low profile listed but i belive he can do pretty much everything on request. As for the bit expensive LOD, i think its worth it, unless you can make your own.


----------



## Vidmaven

rebkos said:


> I bought this one
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/281142485775
> 
> very good handwork. The seller have some low profile listed but i belive he can do pretty much everything on request. As for the bit expensive LOD, i think its worth it, unless you can make your own.


 
  
 Stelian's work is very good. I have two interconnects from him, one was custom with right angle plugs and they are both very nice pieces. He can make whatever you need you just have to send him a message via EBay and tell him what you want.


----------



## Chris J

sbradley02 said:


> If you want to read more, see this article:
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/601669/impedance-adapters-cables-explained-listed
> 
> Look at ChrisJ's post which pretty much sums up what we have been saying:
> ...


 
  
  
 What?
 Did someone call me out? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Seriously,
 I use both 600 Ohm Beyers and 62 Ohm AKG 'phones with my E12.
 The only change I make is I set gain to 0 dB with the AKG Q701 (the 62 Ohm 'phone)
 I set gain the 16 dB with the Beyer DT880 (the 600 Ohm 'phone).
  
 I don't use an "impedance adaptor" for either 'phone in any amp that I own.


----------



## sbradley02

Anyone know where I can find an E12 manual online?
  
 Doc availability is one of the weak points of the Fiio site.
  
 Thanks


----------



## GWagon

I just got this amp and I'm using the supplied 3.5mm cable to connect to my iPhone 5. I was wondering if getting the lightning to 30 pin adapter and an LOD would be a worthwhile investment. Will there be a noticeable increase in SQ?


----------



## Evshrug

Possibly a decrease in SQ. The lightning port is all digital, so to create a line out feed the 30-Pin adapter has to use it's own DAC, which FWIR may not be as good as the one in the iPhone 5 anyway.


----------



## JohnSantana

How to reduce the EMI noise when clipping the FiioE12 together with the iPhone ?


----------



## zzffnn

johnsantana said:


> How to reduce the EMI noise when clipping the FiioE12 together with the iPhone ?


 
  
 You may try taking out SIM card, but it will disable the cell phone function.


----------



## pietcux

If you need an amp that is protected against such things, you might want to check on this one:
  
*CORDA QUICKSTEP*
  
RF-noise (iPhone!!) is removed by extensive filtering of the input signal.
  
http://www.meier-audio.homepage.t-online.de/


----------



## pngwn

If you put the E12 on top of / next to / within 4in of a mobile device, there's not much to do about interference noise.


----------



## JohnSantana

pngwn said:


> If you put the E12 on top of / next to / within 4in of a mobile device, there's not much to do about interference noise.




so far my work around is to use longer line out cable and put the amp and my iPhone far away in the different pocket of my pant or jacket. Obviously it looks like a cable or fashion disaster to me :-/


----------



## GWagon

I'm thinking about moving from an iPhone 5 to an iPod Classic 7th gen. so that I could use an LOD and have more space for my music. I'm just wondering if I'll seen an improvement in sound quality going that route and if it'll be anything significant?


----------



## howdy

gwagon said:


> I'm thinking about moving from an iPhone 5 to an iPod Classic 7th gen. so that I could use an LOD and have more space for my music. I'm just wondering if I'll seen an improvement in sound quality going that route and if it'll be anything significant?



Do you have an amp yet?


----------



## martybm5

There's a definite improvement over the sound of the iphone4 and that's including the use of an LOD. I'd think there would be a noticeable improvement over the headphone out of the iphone 5


----------



## GWagon

howdy said:


> Do you have an amp yet?


 
  
 I have the e12.


----------



## GWagon

martybm5 said:


> There's a definite improvement over the sound of the iphone4 and that's including the use of an LOD. I'd think there would be a noticeable improvement over the headphone out of the iphone 5


 
  
 Just to make it clear, I'm currently using the FiiO E12 with the 3.5mm male to male cable. I'm looking to move to a iPod Classic 7th gen and use a FiiO L9 LOD. Also wanting the extra space but I was just wondering if I'd experience a noticeable upgrade in SQ. Currently using the ATH-ES10's FYI.
  
 Cheers.


----------



## martybm5

gwagon said:


> Just to make it clear, I'm currently using the FiiO E12 with the 3.5mm male to male cable. I'm looking to move to a iPod Classic 7th gen and use a FiiO L9 LOD. Also wanting the extra space but I was just wondering if I'd experience a noticeable upgrade in SQ. Currently using the ATH-ES10's FYI.
> 
> Cheers.


 
  
 That's kind of what I assumed. I know its not apples to apples (I guess it sort of is) but you will definitely get better sound going LOD either way. In my opinion, the IPOD classic LOD is better than the iphone LOD (which in turn is better than the headphone out) ...


----------



## GWagon

martybm5 said:


> That's kind of what I assumed. I know its not apples to apples (I guess it sort of is) but you will definitely get better sound going LOD either way. In my opinion, the IPOD classic LOD is better than the iphone LOD (which in turn is better than the headphone out) ...


 
  
 Cool, I appreciate the help. Looking forward to hearing the difference for myself. I needed the extra space anyway, so any increase in SQ will be a welcome bonus I suppose.


----------



## pietcux

I use the Ipod Classic 7th gen LOD with the E12. It is a very good combo. And yes, the LOD is much better than the headphone out.


----------



## howdy

gwagon said:


> Cool, I appreciate the help. Looking forward to hearing the difference for myself. I needed the extra space anyway, so any increase in SQ will be a welcome bonus I suppose.



I'm using the ipod classic 7th gen with the fiio e12 and that sounds just as good as my fiio x3. The ipod/E12 combo is the way to go.


----------



## GWagon

I'm pleased to hear it! Should be going out tomorrow to get myself one. Another reason for moving to a dedicated player is that answering my phone is a bit of a hassle with a relatively large portable amp strapped to it.


----------



## Hijodelbrx

I just got my E12/L9 (LOD) yesterday! I was already happy with my Ipod classic/UE TF10 combo but WOW!! Not a subtle maybe-I-hear-it difference. Truly outstanding! AND the E12 drives my Sennheiser HD600's effortlessly and sounds great doing it! A true giant killer!!


----------



## GWagon

Ahh... Much better. 
  

  
 This setup also solves the problem I had with interference when using my iPhone. I'm now tempted to rip all of my music in lossless format, but maybe for a day when I'm less busy.


----------



## martybm5

Good looking setup ! Makes a whale of a difference doesnt it !!


----------



## GWagon

martybm5 said:


> Good looking setup ! Makes a whale of a difference doesnt it !!


 
  
 I'm noticing an improvement in clarity and the bass rumbles with more authority and accuracy. I really cannot ask for more, and I still have some upgraded ear pads coming through for my ES10's which are said to improve sound-stage and the overall sound signature.
  
 I don't think I've smiled so much listening to my music - satisfaction levels are through the roof.


----------



## howdy

gwagon said:


> Ahh... Much better.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That looks awesome, I agree you should re-rip your music to ALAC, you will hear an even better improvement. If this is your first "rig" let the addiction begin. Its like a tattoo there is no such thing as one.


----------



## miceblue

Lossy vs lossless benefits aren't nearly as big as you make it seem...just saying. 256 kbps AAC is perfectly fine for me as I can't hear the differences between that and CD-ripped FLAC.


----------



## notoriousjim

I'm thinking of getting an E12 but is there an LOD cable available for Windows phone? The jack on my Lumia 920 is not working properly.


----------



## howdy

A





miceblue said:


> Lossy vs lossless benefits aren't nearly as big as you make it seem...just saying. 256 kbps AAC is perfectly fine for me as I can't hear the differences between that and CD-ripped FLAC.



Not entirely true to my ears, I hear a definite clarity in the highs and near no distortion in the lows. I do agree that it does not have to be in Flac or Alac and that 256 kbps is generally sufficient.


----------



## JackRabbitSlims

Current Rig is iPod Classic 160gb, into Custom LOD, into Pico Slim, into UERM's - very happy with this setup!
  
 A new Amp is a consideration right now and am wondering if the E12 would be a step up or a step sideways? Had the E11 when it first came out and preferred the Pico because of the great battery life.
  
 Thoughts and Opinions........


----------



## oats2012

QUESTION:

Hey guys I haven't been able to find it in this long thread yet. So if anyone knows please answer the following:

--> Is it damaging to the unit or electronics somehow of theE12 to turn on the Bass boost or turn it off while the unit itself IS ON and playing music ? Is it also bad to adjust crossfeed or gain while the unit is on? 

Just wondering because I don't want to break my new E12 or wear it out faster. Thanks guys!!

EDIT: 

Additionally, I have my source as this PC toslink> Audio engine D1> Fiio E12 > headphones .....I know this is Double Amping, can someone tell me or direct me to reading material that tells me if this is a problem or bad for my equipment? I like the E12 boost signiture to try and reduce a little bit of harsh highs I've percieved coming out of my D1. Its not my permanent setup but may use it portably in the future so I wanna know what yall think may be concerns or issues doing this?


----------



## ClieOS

oats2012 said:


> QUESTION:
> 
> Hey guys I haven't been able to find it in this long thread yet. So if anyone knows please answer the following:
> 
> ...


 
  
 It is fine to adjust bass or crossfeed on-th-fly.
  
 First, set the PC software volume to max. Second, if D1's RCA-out is fixed volume, then use it instead of the headphone-out. If both are adjustable, either one is fine but set to volume to max.. Lastly, use E12 to control volume. These should theoretically give you the best SQ.


----------



## Allucid

Bah, returned the Mont Blanc, way too loud for me and my M-100s. Caused temporary tittanius. 

Overral - Very stellar amp, nothing at all wrong with it. FiiO got everything right on it. 

Pros - Fined tuned audio control
Bass boost
12v and below charging, supports a wide range of chargers. 
The cloth carry bag can be used all the time to protect the E12. 
Bass and treble 'automatically' increased. 
Twist volume to turn on - saves time. 
Firm 'click' sound when turning on. 

Cons -
If you're thinking you need an amo to improve SQ, check your headphones and the amps specs first. 

No bass and treble control
No DAC / USB. 
Brushed metal can be scratches by the non-caring user. 
No /VOLUME LIMIT/. This thing will give you tittanius if not careful, I suggest to turn the volume of your output device to a minimum and let the amp do the rest. 
Dirty micro usb cables lead the SQ with amp to be muddied while charging. 

If you're looking for no fuss and plug and play, and very fine bolume control, go for the E12. 
If you want more control over bass, treble, and have DAC support, go for the E17.

Always ask yourself do I need an amp?


----------



## oats2012

clieos said:


> oats2012 said:
> 
> 
> > QUESTION:
> ...




Sounds good! and I trust that you are more knowledgeable but if everything is at max until the E12 in that sound loop wont that introduce distortion into the sound? 

I understand its just a signal strength thing but is distortion only introduced when the drivers in the headphone are too loud? (maybe I'm answeringmy own question but wanted to check if thats the case lol)?


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

How is the E12 too loud when there is a volume control?

That makes no sense.


----------



## martybm5

The E12 is probably too powerful for IEMs ...... IMHO is definitely more suitable for full size hard to drive cans


----------



## miceblue

There is a very fine line between power, channel imbalance, and no channel imbalance with the potentiometer. I find the E12 to be pretty loud for me too with the potentiometer past the channel imbalance region. It makes perfect sense.


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

The M100 isn't an iem. Granted, it's fairly sensitive, but a moderate volume should be quite a bit past the point of channel imbalance 

If you listen super low, then... yeah, I dunno why there'd be a need for such a powerful amp in the first place.


----------



## martybm5

With the M100 I found that the E12 was good, but what worked better was an amp that was cleaner .... I LOVED the way the ALO national sounded with my M100 but that same amp was no where near powerful enough to make my Mad Dogs sound good


----------



## ClieOS

oats2012 said:


> Sounds good! and I trust that you are more knowledgeable but if everything is at max until the E12 in that sound loop wont that introduce distortion into the sound?
> 
> I understand its just a signal strength thing but is distortion only introduced when the drivers in the headphone are too loud? (maybe I'm answeringmy own question but wanted to check if thats the case lol)?


 
  
 There are two common possibilities of distortion when you max out volume on the source during double amping. First, it could be that the source's internal amp section is clipping at max volume. Second, it could be that the source signal is too strong and causes the amp to clip. To avoid the first issue, generally setting the volume to 90% should work. However, given D1's spec lists 2Vrms as it maximum output, which basically equal to line-out strength and (the RCA jacks are) designed to feed into monitor speaker, I'll assume Audioengine know their stuff and create a decent amp section on the D1 that should not clip itself. For the second issue, or should I say a non-issue, as E12 is designed to take in a line-level signal. So the chance that D1 will clip E12 is zero. If you even find any distortion on E12, just lower the D1 volume a tiny bit until you hear no distortion at all. However, my guess is they should pair fairly well together.


----------



## miceblue

mad lust envy said:


> The M100 isn't an iem. Granted, it's fairly sensitive, but a moderate volume should be quite a bit past the point of channel imbalance


 
 It's still pretty loud for me at the library just past the channel imbalance.
  
 Music barely audible [channel imbalance]

  
 Music playing at a volume level that's more comfortable for me [channel imbalance]

  
 Music playing too loud for me [no channel imbalance]


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

Why not lower the source volume by say, 10%? I mean, if it's that loud... then certainly the E12 is too much amp. I mean, I don't understand why people are getting such a powerful amp for such a sensitive headphone.


----------



## miceblue

I can't lower the source volume with a line-out dock connector on my iPhone. XD


----------



## StanD

miceblue said:


> It's still pretty loud for me at the library just past the channel imbalance.
> 
> Music barely audible [channel imbalance]
> 
> ...


 
 What was the setting of the gain switch? If it was on 16 dB then you should flip it to 0 dB which is lower gain and that may be what you're looking for.


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

miceblue said:


> I can't lower the source volume with a line-out dock connector on my iPhone. XD




Ah, yeah. I forget that option.

Surely, you overreached with the E12, when it's been known since the beginning to rival desktop power.


----------



## jazzman7

stand said:


> What was the setting of the gain switch? If it was on 16 dB then you should flip it to 0 dB which is lower gain and that may be what you're looking for.


 
  
 I second this comment.  Fiio E12 with gain switch at 0dB with an iPhone (4) LOD driving M100s plays nice at the volume settings you show.   Not too loud for me. 
  
 And interesting discussion -- did not notice the channel imbalance issue before.  Now I can hear it at very soft volumes.


----------



## miceblue

mad lust envy said:


> miceblue said:
> 
> 
> > I can't lower the source volume with a line-out dock connector on my iPhone. XD
> ...


 
 I knew about the Scouter's power level [it's over 9000!!!!!!!!!!!], but at the time I didn't know what power did, nor did I think the channel imbalance region/volume level would be an issue. I guess you can say *puts on sunglasses* I bought into the hype, yeah....
  
 Being a portable amp, I was thinking it would be fine for portable headphones and the power was a bonus. That plus the omnipresent cloud of having MOAR POWAHHH to sound better!!!

  
 I do tend to listen to music at a low volume level though. There's no need to blow my eardrums at a [relatively] young age. Many a years to come for Head-Fi gear!


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

I think the main draw with the E12 was that it was powerful enough to power typically non-portable headphones.

For that, I would consider the E12 to be a 'transportable' amp for transportable headphones. Something like the Mad Dogs, which scale up with more power, but sound great with an entry desktop amp (i.e. E9K). The E12 would suit this type of headphone.


----------



## miceblue

I don't understand the concept of "scale up" still. I used the FiiO HS2 to compare the O2 to the JDS Labs C5, and the C5 to the E12. The observations between the amps with the M-100 [a pretty efficient headphone] were really similar to what I experienced with the Mad Dog 3.2 [a pretty inefficient headphone].


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

I, for the most part don't experience much differences from SS amp to SS amp. I, however, hear better depth and energy out of some headphones with better gear. The AKG 70x is probably the headphones that scaled up noticeably from minimal amping, to better amping. The MD 3.2 also had at LEAST a better depth and larger air space with my better amps, though the sound signature remained the same. It sounded congested and boxed in with less power.

I won't even get started on the HE-4, which shouldn't be plugged into anything but the strongest of amps. That scales up basically because it NEEDS so much power to even get going.


----------



## StanD

jazzman7 said:


> I second this comment.  Fiio E12 with gain switch at 0dB with an iPhone (4) LOD driving M100s plays nice at the volume settings you show.   Not too loud for me.
> 
> And interesting discussion -- did not notice the channel imbalance issue before.  Now I can hear it at very soft volumes.


 
  
 Same here, at the lowest settings of the volume pot. It doesn't really affect me.When I use my HD600 I'm on the 16 dB switch and still turn well past that point. My other cans and IEMs that I use with the 0dB switch also go well past that point on the volume pot.
 Miceblue never answered the question about the switch, If the switch was the problem, it may not be a real problem if he flipped it to 0 DB.


----------



## miceblue

Oh that question was directed at me? I thought it was the other person. But yes, I never switch the gain since it's too much effort for me to get a sharp-ish object and slide it. That and even with the Mad Dog, I never had to go past 12 o'clock on the potentiometer, so having the higher gain seems pretty useless for me.
  
 Crossfade off, gain on "0 dB," bass boost off, running on battery.


----------



## BenF

Your M100 is 103dB/mW, my FAD Heaven VI is 112dB/mW - and E12 isn't too loud for it.
 ATH-ES700 at 104dB/mW also sounds great.
 May be your M100 or E12 is not functioning properly?


----------



## StanD

miceblue said:


> Oh that question was directed at me? I thought it was the other person. But yes, I never switch the gain since it's too much effort for me to get a sharp-ish object and slide it. That and even with the Mad Dog, I never had to go past 12 o'clock on the potentiometer, so having the higher gain seems pretty useless for me.
> 
> Crossfade off, gain on "0 dB," bass boost off, running on battery.


 
  
 If I remember correctly the picture you posted showed your preference of potentiometer position below 9 AM where it is not balanced. You must be able to hear a pin drop a mile away. How do the M100's sound without an amp? The review on InnerFidelity said that they are sensitive enough to work on a portable device, so maybe for these an amp is not required.
 Edit: At least the amp may not be required for the M100, but other devices maybe they are a good thing.


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

Wondering if he's bothered to check if maybe the gain switch is reversed/mislabeled and he's been using it in high gain the entire time?


----------



## miceblue

The indented "dot" on the slider for the gain indicates the position, correct? The "dot" is towards the 0 label on the right and not the 16 one on the left.

As for the channel imbalance, the last photo in the series is past it. I mentioned that the region between channel imbalance and no channel imbalance is very small when turning the potentiometer, so it's hard for me to get no channel imbalance while still having it at a low [for me] volume level.


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

I mean, did you actually check if the gain wasn't reversed by ear? Like I said, it may have been reversed... worse things have happened. I mean, I've used the Fiio E12 with some very, very efficient cans like the KSC35 and MA900, and both needed at least up to 10-11 on 0 gain. The Ipod should have even less voltage than my laptop, so you should have some more play on the volume than I would. It doesn't make sense. Something has to be faulty, or you have the ears of god.


----------



## StanD

miceblue said:


> The indented "dot" on the slider for the gain indicates the position, correct? The "dot" is towards the 0 label on the right and not the 16 one on the left.
> 
> As for the channel imbalance, the last photo in the series is past it. I mentioned that the region between channel imbalance and no channel imbalance is very small when turning the potentiometer, so it's hard for me to get no channel imbalance while still having it at a low [for me] volume level.


 
  
 Yes, the dot on the switch, which you move with a pen or pencil is moved toward the 0 or 16 based upon the amount of gain in dB you desire. You might want to move it to be sure of where it is. It may not be apparent at first glance since the movement isn't as extreme as the markings.
 THose M100's are pretty sensitive and may not need to be amped. They certainly have enough bass to hammer it home.


----------



## Change is Good

I use the E12 only for portable use with my W4R and M80 nowadays. I have no issues whatsoever with any loudness or too much power. 

Also, I only use high gain when I'm at home with my MDs away from my desk.


----------



## Allucid

mad lust envy said:


> How is the E12 too loud when there is a volume control?
> 
> That makes no sense.



iPod Volume x E12 Volume = Too loud. 



mad lust envy said:


> The M100 isn't an iem. Granted, it's fairly sensitive, but a moderate volume should be quite a bit past the point of channel imbalance
> 
> If you listen super low, then... yeah, I dunno why there'd be a need for such a powerful amp in the first place.




Thing is, I don't listen super low. If I did, I would get a pair of supermarket earphones. 

Why did I buy the amp? I was told that the E12 is an upgrade from my E17, and my E17 and LP2 work very well together, whereas my E17 and M100 work alright, even with FLAC and EQing.


----------



## Change is Good

Evs should be able to give his impression as he has both the E12 and M100... and I have yet to hear him make any complaints (though I doubt he has them paired together). I am sure, however, he's _tested_ them together.
  
 Evs?


----------



## Allucid

change is good said:


> Evs should be able to give his impression as he has both the E12 and M100... and I have yet to hear him make any complaints (though I doubt he has them paired together). I am sure, however, he's _tested_ them together.
> 
> Evs?



I had the E12. 
I have the E17, V-MODA LP2 and V-MODA M-100. 
I returned the E12, even though suggested to let it burn in, because of the hole in my pocket using an amp that slightly improved my M100s, and the fact when using it I got mid titannius.


----------



## Allucid

miceblue said:


> The indented "dot" on the slider for the gain indicates the position, correct? The "dot" is towards the 0 label on the right and not the 16 one on the left.
> 
> As for the channel imbalance, the last photo in the series is past it. I mentioned that the region between channel imbalance and no channel imbalance is very small when turning the potentiometer, so it's hard for me to get no channel imbalance while still having it at a low [for me] volume level.



I experienced channel imbalance with my V-MODA M100s using the E12 while either turning off the amp or turning it on. Pull the volume more, no imbalance.


----------



## howdy

allucid said:


> iPod Volume x E12 Volume = Too loud.
> Thing is, I don't listen super low. If I did, I would get a pair of supermarket earphones.
> 
> Why did I buy the amp? I was told that the E12 is an upgrade from my E17, and my E17 and LP2 work very well together, whereas my E17 and M100 work alright, even with FLAC and EQing.



I think the sound sign is the same for the most part. The E17 is more adjustable though. I really enjoyed the E17 and wish I never sold it. Yep the e12 is loud I just keep it 2 clicks past on and that's enough for my IEMs.


----------



## Allucid

howdy said:


> allucid said:
> 
> 
> > iPod Volume x E12 Volume = Too loud.
> ...



The E17 is way better for my ears and headphones than the E12. 
I barely use my E17. Send me a PM?


----------



## nimano45

can you use the Fiio E12 with Samsung Galaxy Note 3 and get good results? If the answer is yes, do you ned to buy an extra cable?


----------



## Allucid

nimano45 said:


> can you use the Fiio E12 with Samsung Galaxy Note 3 and get good results? If the answer is yes, do you ned to buy an extra cable?



Go forward two pages or less.


----------



## Shawn71

martybm5 said:


> The E12 is probably too powerful for IEMs ...... IMHO is definitely more suitable for full size hard to drive cans


 

 Exactly. moreover you won't find the juice of it until you connect the power-hungry headphones as against paired with 99% IEMS. it's an exclusive HP amp to drive demanding hi-impedance drivers viz monitoring,PRO,recording,studio,reference,even ortho Dynamics/planars. It makes/is a difference to drive a 3mm-13.5mm drivers to 40mm-53mm's.


----------



## pietcux

That is not true. Today I received my Sony EX-1000. They are dynamic and have 32 ohm. They need a little more juice than my Ultrasone Signature DJ which is also 32 ohm. Both benefit from using the E12 vesus using a DAP only. Ok I am not talking about 8 or 16 ohm IEMs but you do not need a 300 ohm can to benefit from the E12 or other headphone amps. Benefit means better bass, better mids and better treble.


----------



## Change is Good

pietcux said:


> That is not true. Today I received my Sony EX-1000. They are dynamic and have 32 ohm. They need a little more juice than my Ultrasone Signature DJ which is also 32 ohm. Both benefit from using the E12 vesus using a DAP only. Ok I am not talking about 8 or 16 ohm IEMs but you do not need a 300 ohm can to benefit from the E12 or other headphone amps. Benefit means better bass, better mids and better treble.


Same here

As I've mentioned before I have the Westonw 4r which is 31 ohm and it benefits immensely with the E12. Mind you it's a quad driver IEM so take that as it may.

For more simple IEMs with under 20 ohms I say the E12 is roadkill.


----------



## Hijodelbrx

Just posted a few days ago about my experience with the E12/TF10 combo.  I won't listen to these great IEM's without the E12 unless I absolutely have to!


----------



## BenF

change is good said:


> Same here
> 
> As I've mentioned before I have the Westonw 4r which is 31 ohm and it benefits immensely with the E12. Mind you it's a quad driver IEM so take that as it may.
> 
> For more simple IEMs with under 20 ohms I say the E12 is _*roadkill*_.


 
 I sure hope you meant "overkill"


----------



## Evshrug

johnsantana said:


> How to reduce the EMI noise when clipping the FiioE12 together with the iPhone ?



Apparently, GSM cellular phones create more EMI than CDMA phones like Verizon or Sprint. Too bad... I was totally into the idea of web surfing while on a phone call.




change is good said:


> Same here
> 
> As I've mentioned before I have the Westonw 4r which is 31 ohm and it benefits immensely with the E12. Mind you it's a quad driver IEM so take that as it may.
> 
> For more simple IEMs with under 20 ohms I say the E12 is *roadkill*.



LoL man. Lol.

I mean, it's overkill for volume, but it provides a nice reservoir for current and it has a negligible 0.5 Ohm output impedance so it doesn't suffer from impedance mismatching. I had success pairing mine with my very sensitive Etymotic ER•6i IEMs (though they don't have 20 ohm impedance).

I'm starting to think that more ohms for headphone impedance can actually be a good thing for ease of driving, given that you can reach adequate volume.


----------



## Change is Good

Lol, you guys know what I meant...


----------



## pngwn

It creates roadkill from the titannius in your mid, obviously


----------



## Change is Good

Evs, now that you have your iphone 5 have you thought about venturing into a higher quality IEM? I know you love your Etys, but I wanted to mention that from my home rig to portable my smile stays just as big


----------



## Evshrug

iPhone 5S, thank you very much. Actually, I'll use Siri to type this for me.

I haven't thought about upgrading my IEMs. I thought about perhaps getting the ERP fours, but ice use my and 100 portable more often to be honest. It's just easier to put on and take off. Why, what do you use? You did end up getting the case 712 right?


----------



## Shawn71

pietcux said:


> -That is not true. Today I received my Sony EX-1000. They are dynamic and have 32 ohm.
> 
> *but you do not need a 300 ohm can to benefit from the E12 or other headphone amps. Benefit means better bass, better mids and better treble.


 

 -well that's why I left 1% for these kind of IEM cans.
 * my 2GB shuffle,c-120gb (r.boxed) and SGP 5" wifi drives my Senny HD600 well BUT E12 brings out the full potential of HD600 when assigned it's job. so definitely there's a lot benefits around entire sound dynamics. mostly HP amps primarily bought to drive the HPs and second only to get details IMHO.
  
 EDIT: said that, "primary reason" will fulfill the "secondary reason" as well for the power-hungry full sized HPs.


----------



## Change is Good

Evshrug said:
			
		

> /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> iPhone 5S, thank you very much. Actually, I'll use Siri to type this for me.
> 
> I haven't thought about upgrading my IEMs. I thought about perhaps getting the ERP fours, but ice use my and 100 portable more often to be honest. It's just easier to put on and take off. Why, what do you use? You did end up getting the *case 712* right?


 

 iPhone 5S, yes, please excuse me lol.
  
 Yea, I got my "case 712" about a week ago and am really glad it's in the family. As for on the go, I'm using my Westone 4R more often than the M80 even if they're IEMs. I kind of prefer them and with their fit they are pretty easy to take on and off. Though, I wish I would find a portable over ear/on ear that I'd be happy with. The M80 is very nice (especially for the price I got it for) but its sound quality just doesn't contend with what I'm used to. I guess my ears are getting spoiled... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 . Not the M80's fault... and definitely a "roadkill" on my wallet... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I'm probably going to sell them and use the spare cash towards my Upgrade to the Alpha Dog. Still a bit skeptical because I absolutely love my Mad Dogs; just wish they were more portable so I can use with my portable rig (F806>LOD>E12).


----------



## Evshrug

Ha ha yeah Siri did get a few things wrong, but it sure beats typing. I actually think it's really impressive how accurate it came out. Your ears probably are spoiled!

I like the roadkill on my wallet analogy; it's like the demands of quality headphones just blitz right on through your wallet with no regard!


----------



## Allucid

stand said:


> miceblue said:
> 
> 
> > Oh that question was directed at me? I thought it was the other person. But yes, I never switch the gain since it's too much effort for me to get a sharp-ish object and slide it. That and even with the Mad Dog, I never had to go past 12 o'clock on the potentiometer, so having the higher gain seems pretty useless for me.
> ...



Actually you have to go up to headstage arrow price range to amp the M-100. They don't need an amp, at all. They respond very well to EQing, though. 

How do the M-100s sound without an amp?
Undescribable. Clear, like a M80 but way better. I tested them against Senn. Momentums - Momentums didn't win. 

I don't know how to describe how they sound - it's like trying to explain what 2010 dubstep sounds like to someone who only listens to Pop music.


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

Dubstep is pop now.


----------



## Allucid

mad lust envy said:


> Dubstep is pop now.



Are you serious? 
No, people are trying to copy Moombahton and Dubstep and put in into little bits of pop, but overral dubstep, REAL dubstep wouldn't go near pop.


----------



## Marleybob217

Would you guys recommend this amp for IEMs? If not, are there other relatively cheap portable amps that you would recommend?


----------



## BenF

marleybob217 said:


> Would you guys recommend this amp for IEMs? If not, are there other relatively cheap portable amps that you would recommend?


 
  
 With the 16ohm/112dB Final Audio Design Heaven VI I can get the volume to about 9:30.
 With the 150ohm/95dB HiFiMan RE-262 I can get the volume to about 11.
  
 Sounds great with both
  
 You can consider E17 as an alternative - more volume control for sensitive IEMs plus a decent DAC.


----------



## Shawn71

marleybob217 said:


> Would you guys recommend this amp for IEMs? If not, are there other relatively cheap portable amps that you would recommend?


 
 firstly What IEM you have now?
  
 I have IEMs Vmoda Faze,Creative ep630/830,Klipsch S5i,B.wavz M5,S.Magic PL13/PL21,Jlab J3,J5,J6,MEElec M6,M9P, SennyCX280, Altec muzx606,TF10, Philips/apple/sony/Senny MX470 earbuds,believe me I couldn't find much difference(but it is evident) when E12 drives'em. kind of little overpowering to them. coz these are sensitive enough and standard impedance, even babies like sansa clip+ and source alikes drives them comfortably. Even my OE2 just gained a ~10-15% SQ overall where as senny HD429's bass extensions are noticed and highs relatively shined a little.
  
 But E12 drove my SennyHD600 and Philips hp890 with more energy(these HPs demand) and their openness, spaciousness,details on different tracks etc revealed instantly. especially the bass boost is a smooth transition. gain would've been a 3 steps than 2.
  
 To begin with, no matter what IEM you own, you can try cMoy for under $30 tag in ebay.com. step up,FiiO E6 (same <$30) and E11 ($54) are there.Would suggest go for FiiO (especially E6) as it's a reputed brand and you just can't go wrong with it, besides their quality....
  
 End of the day,In a nut shell,if the HP/IEM demands power then there's a necessity to buy the HP Amp, imho.


----------



## pietcux

allucid said:


> Are you serious?
> No, people are trying to copy Moombahton and Dubstep and put in into little bits of pop, but overral dubstep, REAL dubstep wouldn't go near pop.



Every music genre that gets a greater audience can be called popular. I.E. it became POP music.........


----------



## Marleybob217

Thanks for the replies guys,
  
 Quote:


shawn71 said:


> firstly What IEM you have now?
> 
> I have IEMs Vmoda Faze,Creative ep630/830,Klipsch S5i,B.wavz M5,S.Magic PL13/PL21,Jlab J3,J5,J6,MEElec M6,M9P, SennyCX280, Altec muzx606,TF10, Philips/apple/sony/Senny MX470 earbuds,believe me I couldn't find much difference(but it is evident) when E12 drives'em. kind of little overpowering to them. coz these are sensitive enough and standard impedance, even babies like sansa clip+ and source alikes drives them comfortably. Even my OE2 just gained a ~10-15% SQ overall where as senny HD429's bass extensions are noticed and highs relatively shined a little.
> 
> ...


 
 I have the BA4f custom in ears from custom ears. They have a quaddriver, but don't need any power. However, when going from my audinst hud-mx1 to the ibasso DX50 I do notice a difference. And other users have stated that this cIEM scales with better amps. I really have absolutely zero use for a more powerful amp, I just want a very resolving amp, that's not necessarily power. I have tried the E6 with the ibasso DX50, but the internal amp of the DX50 definitely sounds better.
  


benf said:


> With the 16ohm/112dB Final Audio Design Heaven VI I can get the volume to about 9:30.
> With the 150ohm/95dB HiFiMan RE-262 I can get the volume to about 11.
> 
> Sounds great with both
> ...


----------



## iSennheiser

I've got questions.

 Can FiiO E12 drive Sennheiser HD600/HD650 and even HD800( I knw this is ridiculous but i can't afford ex amp).
  
 I have problem with FiiO Tough, I have replaced my E12 3times due to Battery problem, mechanical sliding fault, and etc.Great design but poor service.


----------



## iSennheiser

I got this for US$125 in Singapore. City Hall Funan, great value, but poor service.


----------



## Shawn71

isennheiser said:


> I've got questions.
> 
> Can FiiO E12 drive Sennheiser HD600/HD650 and even HD800( I knw this is ridiculous but i can't afford ex amp).
> 
> I have problem with FiiO Tough, I have replaced my E12 3times due to Battery problem, mechanical sliding fault, and etc.Great design but poor service.


 

 Yes It does with ease. but HD800 not sure as I haven't tried.
  
 3 times problems? btw, did they charge any $ for other than battery issues? looks like you treated very hard!!! 
  
 how do you describe it's a poor service when u got 3 times replacements? ain't a design problem according to you.


----------



## Evshrug

allucid said:


> Are you serious?
> No, people are trying to copy Moombahton and Dubstep and put in into little bits of pop, but overral dubstep, REAL dubstep wouldn't go near pop.



Lots of bass drops in mainstream pop these days... Maybe there isn't much clip sampling and some of the other dub step hallmarks in Pop, but somebody has taken note of what's happening and it's easy to see Dubstep influences in the last releases from, say, Coldplay and Miley Cyrus.

I just dug out my K712's, I purposefully stashed them away as much as I could stand while reviewing the MA900... Hooked up pretty modestly to my E12 and iPhone 5s, some magic is happening!


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

isennheiser said:


> I got this for US$125 in Singapore. City Hall Funan, great value, but poor service.




Are you 100% positive you didn't buy a fake? Fiio products have fakes circulating, hency why they have those authenticity security measures.


----------



## iSennheiser

mad lust envy said:


> Are you 100% positive you didn't buy a fake? Fiio products have fakes circulating, hency why they have those authenticity security measures.




No I bought it from an authorized dealer in Singapore. Anyway its almost impossible to get fake product in Singapore. i pre-order it as well.


----------



## iSennheiser

shawn71 said:


> Yes It does with ease. but HD800 not sure as I haven't tried.
> 
> 3 times problems? btw, did they charge any $ for other than battery issues? looks like you treated very hard!!!
> 
> how do you describe it's a poor service when u got 3 times replacements? ain't a design problem according to you.




No they didn't charge me with anything but just a waste of time travelling.

The problem with my previous E12 was the Volume was stucked at 50% and the other one is that the Battery doesn't charge and died after 2mins of use(some headfier have the same problem too). i think its a massive manufacturing problem which FiiO have to take this seriously, i am fed up due to this.


----------



## MrScratch

isennheiser said:


> Can FiiO E12 drive Sennheiser HD600/HD650 and even HD800( I knw this is ridiculous but i can't afford ex amp).


 
  
Jude says it sounds quite convincing.


----------



## waynes world

mrscratch said:


> Jude says it sounds quite convincing.


 
  
 I have been impressed with how well it drives the AKG K240 sextetts (600ohm). 
  
 Anyway, I hadn't seen Jude's write up before. Here's an interesting excerpt: 
  


> In its high-gain setting (+10 dB), the FiiO E12 was making easy work--and beautiful driving--of my Audeze LCD-2 and LCD-3, and my HiFiMAN HE-400 and HE-500. And the HD 800? You bet. With the exception of a few portable amps by ALO Audio and Ray Samuels Audio, I’ve not had much luck with finding a portable that I liked with the HD 800. Until the E12, that is. Not only did the E12 drive the HD 800, its bass boost (with its emphasis peaking way down low) gave the HD 800 a kick up the fun scale--this is something I’ve also enjoyed with the ALO Audio Mk3-B that also has a bass boost circuit (a very nice adjustable one).
> 
> Okay, so the 130-buck E12 was inspiring some derring-do, and I reached for the HiFiMAN HE-6. And the hits just kept on coming. Bass boost with the HE-6? Try it, 'cause it's real fun.
> 
> How does the E12 compare to the best of my portables? My SR-71B from Ray Samuels Audio, for example, is still the more impressive, more hi-fi driver of the HE-6 and HD 800 (using its balanced output)--bigger soundstage, blacker background, more dynamic. But that SR-71B is $650.00. My HeadAmp Pico Slim is still the more impressive, purpose-built amp for my top-tier IEMs, but at $399.00. The FiiO E12 is a $129.00 steal of an amp that brings together some of the qualities of my favorite portable amps, in a very well-built, full-featured package. (I haven’t even mentioned the fact that the E12 also has a crossfeed circuit!)


----------



## iSennheiser

I tested them today, yes E12 can drive HD600's and 700 but it doesnt give enough juice like schitt valhalla or Gvibe


----------



## StanD

isennheiser said:


> I tested them today, yes E12 can drive HD600's and 700 but it doesnt give enough juice like schitt valhalla or Gvibe


 
 Did you have the gain switch set to 16dB? At that setting my HD600's can be more than loud enough at the 12 O'clock (half way) position. Turning it up all the way would not be good for my hearing.


----------



## Shawn71

isennheiser said:


> I tested them today, yes E12 can drive HD600's and 700 but it doesnt give enough juice like schitt valhalla or Gvibe


 

 Hope you ticked the gain SW from "0" and the bass as well. Certainly there MUST be a difference between a $349 desktop hybrid amp and a $129 portable solid state amp.


----------



## pngwn

shawn71 said:


> isennheiser said:
> 
> 
> > I tested them today, yes E12 can drive HD600's and 700 but it doesnt give enough juice like schitt valhalla or Gvibe
> ...


 
  
 Something something diminishing returns?


----------



## Evshrug

pngwn said:


> Something something diminishing returns?



That the title of the next Star Wars movie?


----------



## pngwn

evshrug said:


> pngwn said:
> 
> 
> > Something something diminishing returns?
> ...


 
  
 Nah, by this point, we've long past the point of diminishing returns...


----------



## pietcux

My Meier Stepdance also sounds better than the E12. But not as much as the price difference suggests.


----------



## StanD

evshrug said:


> That the title of the next Star Wars movie?


 
 I think it's going to be, "Return of the Tubes. "


----------



## iSennheiser

stand said:


> Did you have the gain switch set to 16dB? At that setting my HD600's can be more than loud enough at the 12 O'clock (half way) position. Turning it up all the way would not be good for my hearing.




Yes I did turn it up to 16db gain and it drives them pretty well, but more expensive desktop amp would drive them properly(i am not familiar with high-end amps) but it sounds like day and night.


----------



## StanD

isennheiser said:


> Yes I did turn it up to 16db gain and it drives them pretty well, but more expensive desktop amp would drive them properly(i am not familiar with high-end amps) but it sounds like day and night.


 
 Now you've got me curious.  Can you describe the difference?  Which other amp?


----------



## iSennheiser

stand said:


> Now you've got me curious.  Can you describe the difference?  Which other amp?




I think with a more sophisticated expensive amp, the soundstage open up more, the resolution is better( with E12 the mids and highs kind of forcing to hit the pitch) whereas with the other expensive amp the notes were played smoothly on piano and strings, the plucking is surely most noticable(the impact goes all the way to the back of your neck and whole body) not sure if i describe it correctly in audio terms but i hope you understand those simple description from musician perspective. In other words, i don't think E12 can drive those legendary headphone like the HD600/650 and as such. They deserve more dedicated amplification to justify their worthiness.

"Pardon my broken english"


----------



## iSennheiser

stand said:


> Now you've got me curious.  Can you describe the difference?  Which other amp?




Okay as much as I remmeber, the amp that I demo the Hd600/650 in comparison with my FiiO E12 is probably sennheiser's own amplifier because i saw their branding and logo on the amp, the colour is silver, hope this helps.


----------



## Evshrug

^ would be funny if it turned out to be a Schiit Lyr or something. I didn't know Sennheiser made amps, but maybe they do if they had their own demo station at a hifi meet or something.


----------



## iSennheiser

evshrug said:


> ^ would be funny if it turned out to be a Schiit Lyr or something. I didn't know Sennheiser made amps, but maybe they do if they had their own demo station at a hifi meet or something.




Hell yeah I just check their website, now They are selling their own in-house amplifier called "Hdva600" and "Hdvd800" no surprise those hd600s sounds different from my e12 like day n night, hell greedy i am now!


----------



## StanD

isennheiser said:


> Okay as much as I remmeber, the amp that I demo the Hd600/650 in comparison with my FiiO E12 is probably sennheiser's own amplifier because i saw their branding and logo on the amp, the colour is silver, hope this helps.


 
 Be careful about trying to remember, sometimes that doesn't work out as well as we'd like and we end up handing over a lot of money to a happy salesman. Try bringing your own DAP and play specific portions of music that you are familiar with that has sections that challenge different aspects of sound, Then do a quick A/B between them. Got to be quick as auditory memory is a funny thing. You might be surprised at the outcome.
 Sometimes people prefer one amp over another because it colors the sound more to their liking. IMO that's some people will get a tube amp that has little feedback (open loop vs. closed loop) and swap in different tubes to get the sound they like best. Perhaps this pursuit brings us joy.


----------



## Evshrug

^hey if you don't enjoy the journey, you're just rushing towards death.

Aesthetic feedback is pretty standard for rock-n-roll electric guitar. Also, I have/enjoy a tube amp, I find it reveals micro details very well while also being less fatiguing to listen to for long periods of time. Of course, I have my E12 too, which cost almost half as much yet has it's own strengths, and I haven't gotten rid of it yet because it compliments my tube amp pretty well.


----------



## StanD

evshrug said:


> ^hey if you don't enjoy the journey, you're just rushing towards death.
> 
> Aesthetic feedback is pretty standard for rock-n-roll electric guitar. Also, I have/enjoy a tube amp, I find it reveals micro details very well while also being less fatiguing to listen to for long periods of time. Of course, I have my E12 too, which cost almost half as much yet has it's own strengths, and I haven't gotten rid of it yet because it compliments my tube amp pretty well.


 
 When I die, I'm taking along an HD80000 and a MegaWatt Class AB Open Loop Tube Amp and an E12000 to compliment it. And I'll have enough time to listen to all the music I want.


----------



## Headzone

> In other words, i don't think E12 can drive those legendary headphone like the HD600/650 and as such. They deserve more dedicated amplification to justify their worthiness.


 
 I don't see why not. HD600 is easy to drive. High impedance but pretty sensitive. 
  
 E12 has enough power too.


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

Yeah, if anything, the 300ohm Senns are prime candidates for the E12, IMHO.


----------



## sbradley02

isennheiser said:


> I tested them today, yes E12 can drive HD600's and 700 but it doesnt give enough juice like schitt valhalla or Gvibe


 
 I find it comparable to my Schiit Asgard in ability to drive my Thunderpants.
  
 Does anyone make a case for the E12?
 I would like to be able to charge it without taking apart my stack and also without cutting up the supplied case.


----------



## StanD

sbradley02 said:


> I find it comparable to my Schiit Asgard in ability to drive my Thunderpants.
> 
> Does anyone make a case for the E12?
> I would like to be able to charge it without taking apart my stack and also without cutting up the supplied case.


 
 The E12, which I own, can drive my HD600's to ear splitting levels. I'm sure that you can find something that'll drive them to 120 dB SPL, but that might be the last thing you'll ever hear - lol. I tried it with an HD650 and it had no problems with that either. I like the bass boost switch on the E12 as it doesn't affect the upper regions of bass or mids in a negative manner yet brings up the extended sub bass in a pleasing manner.
 The HD600 is pretty friendly, a FiiO E11 can drive them, though not as loudly as the E12. The E11 has a high gain switch and I believe an internal switch (somewhere around the battery) for higher voltage, great for 300 Ohms.
 I just dug up and tried an E11 and if you have one you can use it while looking for another amp. IMO the sound will be pleasing while you look, or you might be happy enough as is.
 Edit: The E11 cannot be used while charging, the E12 can be used.


----------



## iSennheiser

stand said:


> The E12, which I own, can drive my HD600's to ear splitting levels. I'm sure that you can find something that'll drive them to 120 dB SPL, but that might be the last thing you'll ever hear - lol. I tried it with an HD650 and it had no problems with that either. I like the bass boost switch on the E12 as it doesn't affect the upper regions of bass or mids in a negative manner yet brings up the extended sub bass in a pleasing manner.
> The HD600 is pretty friendly, a FiiO E11 can drive them, though not as loudly as the E12. The E11 has a high gain switch and I believe an internal switch (somewhere around the battery) for higher voltage, great for 300 Ohms.
> I just dug up and tried an E11 and if you have one you can use it while looking for another amp. IMO the sound will be pleasing while you look, or you might be happy enough as is.
> Edit: The E11 cannot be used while charging, the E12 can be used.




No, you can't use the E12 while charging, thats what I did to my E12 and i have to replace them due to battery issue(it couldnt charge anymore after awhile).


----------



## sbradley02

isennheiser said:


> No, you can't use the E12 while charging, thats what I did to my E12 and i have to replace them due to battery issue(it couldnt charge anymore after awhile).


 

 One of the reasons I continue to use my Asgard for desktop use and save the E12 for the plane.


----------



## StanD

isennheiser said:


> No, you can't use the E12 while charging, thats what I did to my E12 and i have to replace them due to battery issue(it couldnt charge anymore after awhile).


 
 Maybe you got stuck with a lemon, but I've been charging mine while listening and have had no issues whatsoever. The E11 can't be used while charging and that's normal for that model, although undesirable.


----------



## waynes world

isennheiser said:


> No, you can't use the E12 while charging, thats what I did to my E12 and i have to replace them due to battery issue(it couldnt charge anymore after awhile).


 
  
 How many times did you use while charging before the battery died on you?


----------



## Evshrug

I can't stand listening to the E12 while it's charging, rather listen plugged straight into my iPod! I hear a little but irritating noise when I plug it into my Apple iPad wall charging adapter.


----------



## waynes world

Yeah, I hear you. It's a last resort deal for me. But the noise is reduced quite a bit when I use the Samsung tablet usb charger.


----------



## pietcux

I use my Dell laptop dock USB for charging the E12 while listening and have no charging noise at all.


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

I used mine while it was charging, but it does put off a little bit of noise.


----------



## iSennheiser

waynes world said:


> How many times did you use while charging before the battery died on you?




Just 8hours straight listening, serious...


----------



## iSennheiser

Good news, the FiiO E12 reAlly drives my HD600 pretty well and I am happy now.


----------



## StanD

isennheiser said:


> Good news, the FiiO E12 reAlly drives my HD600 pretty well and I am happy now.


 
 I told you so, or somewhere in this thread. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  How do you like the sound of the bass boost switch and the HD600?


----------



## iSennheiser

stand said:


> I told you so, or somewhere in this thread. :happy_face1:   How do you like the sound of the bass boost switch and the HD600?




HD600 has sufficient bass , i only switch on the bass when listening to Hip Hop music. Simply stunning, I think the timbre and resonance is what I i get to listen almost weekly in the Esplanade Concert Hall, simply sound so real, maybe due to my age that I do not really like the hd800(way too bright). This will be my lifetime set


----------



## StanD

isennheiser said:


> HD600 has sufficient bass , i only switch on the bass when listening to Hip Hop music. Simply stunning, I think the timbre and resonance is what I i get to listen almost weekly in the Esplanade Concert Hall, simply sound so real, maybe due to my age that I do not really like the hd800(way too bright). This will be my lifetime set


 
 Your observation about the SQ of the HD800 is why I picked them over the HD650 when comparing the two for about 45 minutes. I was expecting to get the HD650's and was blown away by the realistic sound of the HD600, so they came home. The metallic clink of cymbals is so very real, everything sounded so good. As you were thinking, so did I, about them being a lifetime set. I could get buried with them


----------



## iSennheiser

stand said:


> Your observation about the SQ of the HD800 is why I picked them over the HD650 when comparing the two for about 45 minutes. I was expecting to get the HD650's and was blown away by the realistic sound of the HD600, so they came home. The metallic clink of cymbals is so very real, everything sounded so good. As you were thinking, so did I, about them being a lifetime set. I could get buried with them :happy_face1:




Agree with that but I think HD600 sounds more natural and real compared to Hd650 which has colored sound that suitable for electronic music. To me the highs is very important and HD600 address it like non other. But i love the airy sub bass of HD650. Different taste


----------



## StanD

isennheiser said:


> Agree with that but I think HD600 sounds more natural and real compared to Hd650 which has colored sound that suitable for electronic music. To me the highs is very important and HD600 address it like non other. But i love the airy sub bass of HD650. Different taste


 
 You really can't lose with either. I happen like the way the HD600 delivers highs for EM. Flip the bass switch on the E12 when you want it and wow. I have too many cans and IEMs in a dead box, or have simply given them away. These are here to stay.


----------



## iSennheiser

stand said:


> You really can't lose with either. I happen like the way the HD600 delivers highs for EM. Flip the bass switch on the E12 when you want it and wow. I have too many cans and IEMs in a dead box, or have simply given them away. These are here to stay.




The reason I use E12 is that the bass boost is suitable and properly done for my HD600, both paired up together, magic.


----------



## StanD

isennheiser said:


> The reason I use E12 is that the bass boost is suitable and properly done for my HD600, both paired up together, magic.


 
 Exactly, it doesn't get any better.


----------



## Shawn71

stand said:


> Exactly, it doesn't get any better.


 
  


isennheiser said:


> The reason I use E12 is that the bass boost is suitable and properly done for my HD600, both paired up together, magic.


 

 Yes, smooth transition on Bass extension. seems like FiiO team specially focused, researched, matched the components to suit the ~ / > 300 ohm cans.....FiiO's effort on this is worth mentioning here and revealing. eager to see posts on Beyer's >300 <600 DT series phones how they sounds with E12.


----------



## iSennheiser

shawn71 said:


> Yes, smooth transition on Bass extension. seems like FiiO team specially focused, researched, matched the components to suit the ~ / > 300 ohm cans.....FiiO's effort on this is worth mentioning here and revealing. eager to see posts on Beyer's >300 <600 DT series phones how they sounds with E12.




I have tested all beyerdynamic headphones from 32ohms to 250/300ohms and this e12 has plenty of succulent juice to run them effortlessly, yea i wanted to try dt880 600ohms and see how it goes.


----------



## StanD

shawn71 said:


> Yes, smooth transition on Bass extension. seems like FiiO team specially focused, researched, matched the components to suit the ~ / > 300 ohm cans.....FiiO's effort on this is worth mentioning here and revealing. eager to see posts on Beyer's >300 <600 DT series phones how they sounds with E12.


 
 The Beyer T1's may be 600 Ohms but I think they are pretty sensitive so the E12 might be able to do a good job of it. Yes, it would be interesting to hear about from Beyer owners.


----------



## Chris J

isennheiser said:


> I have tested all beyerdynamic headphones from 32ohms to 250/300ohms and this e12 has plenty of succulent juice to run them effortlessly, yea i wanted to try dt880 600ohms and see how it goes.


 
  
 The E12 doesn't have any problems driving my 600 Ohm DT880s.
 I set the gain to 16 dB with the DT880/600.
 Nice.
 Very nice for $125.


----------



## Shawn71

chris j said:


> The E12 doesn't have any problems driving my 600 Ohm DT880s.
> I set the gain to 16 dB with the DT880/600.
> Nice.
> Very nice for $125.


 

 True.even some of my IEMs sounds dull w/o 16db ticked and vol knob turned above 2-3pm to hear it right. one con though imho, woud've been a 3 step boost than 2.....like 0-8-16db. if this is addressed on the E12DIY silver it's a mass welcome! not sure JamesFiiO and his team thought of this. technically feasible but maybe cost cutting involved as they need 3 way sw, enclosure's extra cut and some additional components to add that feature!!! (maybe $5-10 a piece?) kinda bitter question to match at this price tag.


----------



## Evshrug

My headphones only have needed low gain so far, but even in that regard the E12 has a lot to offer with it's friendly low output-impedance and low distortion, you may not be able to stand turning the volume knob very high BUT it provides very clean regulated power. On one hand, yes it does make certain compromises in size and battery life in order to get one long day of gobs of power on tap, BUT it is versatile and does a great job with almost any headphone you throw at it


----------



## howdy

I’ve came to the realization that this is just too powerful for my needs and will be posting it for sale for something more suitable for my setups.


----------



## waynes world

evshrug said:


> My headphones only have needed low gain so far, but even in that regard the E12 has a lot to offer with it's friendly low output-impedance and low distortion, you may not be able to stand turning the volume knob very high BUT it provides very clean regulated power. On one hand, yes it does make certain compromises in size and battery life in order to get one long day of gobs of power on tap, BUT it is versatile and does a great job with almost any headphone you throw at it


 
  
 Yup. When I first got the E12, I didn't really get it for the power it could provide. But it has allowed me to get and use phones like the 600ohm K240's, so that power capability is now paying off. So yeah, very versatile.


----------



## BenF

shawn71 said:


> True.even some of my IEMs sounds dull w/o 16db ticked and vol knob turned above 2-3pm to hear it right. one con though imho, woud've been a 3 step boost than 2.....like 0-8-16db. if this is addressed on the E12DIY silver it's a mass welcome! not sure JamesFiiO and his team thought of this. technically feasible but maybe cost cutting involved as they need 3 way sw, enclosure's extra cut and some additional components to add that feature!!! (maybe $5-10 a piece?) kinda bitter question to match at this price tag.


 
  
 My hardest to drive IEMs (150ohm/95dB RE-262) are unbearably loud at 2-3PM, even without the 16dB boost.
 I hope you use a very weak source, because otherwise you need to consult a specialist.


----------



## Evshrug

waynes world said:


> Yup. When I first got the E12, I didn't really get it for the power it could provide. But it has allowed me to get and use phones like the 600ohm K240's, so that power capability is now paying off. So yeah, very versatile.



How do you like those 600 Ohm K240? I've always wondered why AKG's flagships are at 62 ohm resistance... I feel like even the 120 ohm K612 would be less picky to drive.


----------



## Chris J

evshrug said:


> How do you like those 600 Ohm K240? I've always wondered why AKG's flagships are at 62 ohm resistance... I feel like even the 120 ohm K612 would be less picky to drive.




Careful what you wish for. 
Most headphone amplifiers will not drive a 600 Ohm headphone.

600 Ohm headphones often need more voltage than most headphone amps can provide.
The E12 is probably one of the few portables that can drive 600 Ohm cans.

As far as 120 or 62 Ohms, unless it is a very inefficient headphone, the impedance will not matter to the E12.


----------



## Evshrug

I was thinking more like 250 ohms... Yeah more voltage for volume, but current shouldn't be a problem once you get that needed volume (and of course output impedance becomes a non-issue)


----------



## iSennheiser

chris j said:


> Careful what you wish for.
> Most headphone amplifiers will not drive a 600 Ohm headphone.
> 
> 600 Ohm headphones often need more voltage than most headphone amps can provide.
> ...




FiiO can drive my HD600 to a deafening volume at 50% high gain 12 o clock. I always listen at 35% or below, or else I might loose my hearing, its very powerful indeed, but I don't think if it can drive higher end like Hd800 which i tried moment ago, its quite rough... Not smooth


----------



## Chris J

isennheiser said:


> FiiO can drive my HD600 to a deafening volume at 50% high gain 12 o clock. I always listen at 35% or below, or else I might loose my hearing, its very powerful indeed, but I don't think if it can drive higher end like Hd800 which i tried moment ago, its quite rough... Not smooth




Not too sure if I would use a $120 headphone amp with a $1400 headphone! 
LOL!


----------



## StanD

isennheiser said:


> FiiO can drive my HD600 to a deafening volume at 50% high gain 12 o clock. I always listen at 35% or below, or else I might loose my hearing, its very powerful indeed, but I don't think if it can drive higher end like Hd800 which i tried moment ago, its quite rough... Not smooth


 
 Actually the HD800 (102 dB/mw) is more sensitive than the HD600 (97 dB/mw) or HD650 (98 dB/mw).


----------



## Shawn71

isennheiser said:


> *I always listen at 35% or below,





> **its quite rough... Not smooth


 
 * Did u listen to the same level of 35% (~10'o clock) with hd800? as hd 600.
 ** over-powering/kinda jarring the drivers or not enough power to drive?


----------



## StanD

chris j said:


> Not too sure if I would use a $120 headphone amp with a $1400 headphone!
> LOL!


 
 And the actual reason is?
 The FiiO E12:
 15.5 Vp-p
 Rated for 300 Ohms
 > 16 db Gain
 Output impedance <0.5Ω
THD <0.005%
  
If it can hurt your ears using an HD600, the HD800 is even more sensitive and will play even louder. It cannot drive a low impedance low efficiency Planar Magnetic can, however, not many amps can - including many very expensive ones.


----------



## iSennheiser

shawn71 said:


> * Did u listen to the same level of 35% (~10'o clock) with hd800? as hd 600.
> ** over-powering/kinda jarring the drivers or not enough power to drive?




I turn it up to 50% and i get almost the same volume with HD800 and Hd600.However, HD 800 is quite rough and sounds somehow wrong with E12 until i plugged it to some Lehmann desktop Amp. No wonder that Sennheiser made its own amp to pair up with $2000 HDVD 800 amp. -.o I can't afford that , so i am more than happy with my budget set up, E12+hd600 :'(


----------



## StanD

isennheiser said:


> I turn it up to 50% and i get almost the same volume with HD800 and Hd600.However, HD 800 is quite rough and sounds somehow wrong with E12 until i plugged it to some Lehmann desktop Amp. No wonder that Sennheiser made its own amp to pair up with $2000 HDVD 800 amp. -.o I can't afford that , so i am more than happy with my budget set up, E12+hd600 :'(


 
  
 Jude's review on Head-Fi states the following:
 "In its high-gain setting (+10 dB), the FiiO E12 was making easy work--and beautiful driving--of my Audeze LCD-2 and LCD-3, and my HiFiMAN HE-400 and HE-500. And the HD 800? You bet. With the exception of a few portable amps by ALO Audio and Ray Samuels Audio, I’ve not had much luck with finding a portable that I liked with the HD 800. Until the E12, that is. Not only did the E12 drive the HD 800, its bass boost (with its emphasis peaking way down low) gave the HD 800 a kick up the fun scale--this is something I’ve also enjoyed with the ALO Audio Mk3-B that also has a bass boost circuit (a very nice adjustable one)."


----------



## iSennheiser

stand said:


> Jude's review on Head-Fi states the following:
> "[COLOR=777777]In its high-gain setting (+10 dB), the FiiO E12 was making easy work--and beautiful driving--of my Audeze LCD-2 and LCD-3, and my HiFiMAN HE-400 and HE-500. And the HD 800? You bet. With the exception of a few portable amps by ALO Audio and Ray Samuels Audio, I’ve not had much luck with finding a portable that I liked with the HD 800. Until the E12, that is. Not only did the E12 drive the HD 800, its bass boost (with its emphasis peaking way down low) gave the HD 800 a kick up the fun scale--this is something I’ve also enjoyed with the ALO Audio Mk3-B that also has a bass boost circuit (a very nice adjustable one).[/COLOR]"




Yeah but HD800 definitely not worth to be driven by E12, it needs something like Lehmanns or HDVD800, its day and night to me, but my HD600 just another winner with E12.


----------



## StanD

isennheiser said:


> Yeah but HD800 definitely not worth to be driven by E12, it needs something like Lehmanns or HDVD800, its day and night to me, but my HD600 just another winner with E12.


 
 I guess we'll have to leave it that Jude and yourself have very different opinions. My office just moved to across the river from J&R. I used to be across the street 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 oh well, it was good while it lasted. Next time I get over to J&R, I'll bring my E12 and plug into an HD800.


----------



## Shawn71

isennheiser said:


> I turn it up to 50% and i get almost the same volume with HD800 and Hd600.However, HD 800 is quite rough and sounds somehow wrong with E12 until i plugged it to some Lehmann desktop Amp. No wonder that Sennheiser made its own amp to pair up with $2000 HDVD 800 amp. -.o I can't afford that , so i am more than happy with my budget set up, E12+hd600 :'(


 
 FiiO has a max power output of 160mW to drive 300ohm cans whereas HD800 allow max. input power of 500 mW.which is of 300% more than FiiO's ability to drive 300ohms. So looks like, E12 can drive hd800 good BUT NOT THAT GOOD. Also the hd800's driver dia 56mm has more voice coil windings.


----------



## Shawn71

stand said:


> I'll bring my E12 and plug into an HD800.


 
 huhoo.......true listening spirits flowing!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 my fingers crossed. appreciate a timely post.


----------



## Chris J

stand said:


> Actually the HD800 (102 dB/mw) is more sensitive than the HD600 (97 dB/mw) or HD650 (98 dB/mw).


 
  
 More efficient.
 The HD800 is more efficient. 
 The numbers you have quoted relate power to SPL, this is properly called efficiency.
  
 You can't properly relate these number to each other without referring to the impedance of the 'phones.
  
 Sensitivity is actually a number that expresses how much VOLTAGE a headphone takes to reach a specific SPL.


----------



## Chris J

stand said:


> And the actual reason is?
> The FiiO E12:
> 15.5 Vp-p
> Rated for 300 Ohms
> ...


 
  
 OK, that wasn't to be taken very seriously.
 In my opinion, I would not drive a pair of $1400 phones with a $125 amp.
 If it was my money, I would be more inclined to spend maybe half on the amp, half on the 'phones.
  
 Just my opinion, but the E12 doesn't sound as good as a Matrix M Stage (for example). 
 Obviously, if it's your money, you can spend it any way you want!


----------



## miceblue

What the heck does "drive" even mean for a headphone?

X amp with Y headphone sounds really good since X properly "parks" the headphone and really makes it "shine" with great "PRaT" and it sounds very "musical."


----------



## Chris J

shawn71 said:


> FiiO has a max power output of 160mW to drive 300ohm cans whereas HD800 allow max. input power of 500 mW.which is of 300% more than FiiO's ability to drive 300ohms. So looks like, E12 can drive hd800 good BUT NOT THAT GOOD. Also the hd800's driver dia 56mm has more voice coil windings.


 
  
 I don't see why you need 500 mW to drive a pair of HD800............unless you want to go really, really deaf! 
 And not too sure where the 56 mm driver makes any difference as to whether 160 mW or 500 mW is "enough"?


----------



## StanD

chris j said:


> More efficient.
> The HD800 is more efficient.
> The numbers you have quoted relate power to SPL, this is properly called efficiency.
> 
> ...


 
 All of the cans I referred to are 300 Ohms, the same impedance, thus these cans can be related to each other whether you are looking at Voltage or Power to SPL relationships.
  
 Actually Power to SPL is called Sensitivity Rating by many, Crown included. I can see why many like to think in terms of voltage as amps deliver in those terms as long as they can handle the load impedance. As long as the number specifies V ro A, I can deal with it.
http://www.crownaudio.com/elect-pwr-req.htm


----------



## StanD

shawn71 said:


> FiiO has a max power output of 160mW to drive 300ohm cans whereas HD800 allow max. input power of 500 mW.which is of 300% more than FiiO's ability to drive 300ohms. So looks like, E12 can drive hd800 good BUT NOT THAT GOOD. Also the hd800's driver dia 56mm has more voice coil windings.


 
 Max. input power is where you damage the cans. Trust me, your ears will hurt well before that happens, something to be avoided. The HD800's are louder than the HD600's at the same level of amplification. The number of windings has nothing to do with it.


----------



## Chris J

stand said:


> All of the cans I referred to are 300 Ohms, the same impedance, thus these cans can be related to each other whether you are looking at Voltage or Power to SPL relationships.
> 
> Actually Power to SPL is called Sensitivity Rating by many, Crown included. I can see why many like to think in terms of voltage as amps deliver in those terms as long as they can handle the load impedance. As long as the number specifies V ro A, I can deal with it.
> http://www.crownaudio.com/elect-pwr-req.htm


 
  
 That's just confusing. Maybe you "can deal with it", but it just adds to the general confusion of all things headphone.
  
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudspeaker#Efficiency_vs._sensitivity
  
 Sensitivity in loudspeakers often refers to 2.83 Volts applied to loudspeaker.


----------



## StanD

chris j said:


> That's just confusing. Maybe you "can deal with it", but it just adds to the general confusion of all things headphone.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudspeaker#Efficiency_vs._sensitivity
> 
> Sensitivity in loudspeakers often refers to 2.83 Volts applied to loudspeaker.


 
 The math and formulae are not such a big deal. No calculus yet - lol. IMO most confusion comes from loosely defined terms that we use to describe what we are hearing. One guy's warm is something else to the next person.


----------



## Evshrug

^
I don't even like the term "warm".


----------



## Chris J

stand said:


> The math and formulae are not such a big deal. No calculus yet - lol. IMO most confusion comes from loosely defined terms that we use to describe what we are hearing. One guy's warm is something else to the next person.


 
  
 My real take on this is:
 There are a lot of Head Fi-ers who just want to buy an amp for their 'phones, and want to know what works without using any math.
  
 The sensitivity thing amused me: how much SPL do we get at 1 Watt?  But Wait! It's really referenced to 2.83 Volts into 8 Ohms! So it's really how much SPL do we get from 2.83 Volts driving a "nominally" 8 Ohm speaker. As you obviously know, is an 8 Ohm speaker really 8 Ohms? So let's standardize it and use a 2.83 Volt signal to the loudspeaker. 
  
 Obviously headphones are a pain in the butt compared to speakers.  You can assume almost any loudspeaker is 8 Ohms and not get into _*too much trouble*_ when shopping for an appropriate amp.
 You can see that a lot of people get confused by the impedance and sensitivity and efficiency and voltage gain and how much amplifier do I need to make my headphones go?  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 As for loosely defined terms, try asking 10 Head Fi-ers which 'phone is brighter, the Q701 or the DT880s.................you may get 10 different variations on an opinion!


----------



## Chris J

evshrug said:


> ^
> I don't even like the term "warm".


 
 How about "cuddly"?


----------



## StanD

chris j said:


> My real take on this is:
> There are a lot of Head Fi-ers who just want to buy an amp for their 'phones, and want to know what works without using any math.
> 
> The sensitivity thing amused me: how much SPL do we get at 1 Watt?  But Wait! It's really referenced to 2.83 Volts into 8 Ohms! So it's really how much SPL do we get from 2.83 Volts driving a "nominally" 8 Ohm speaker. As you obviously know, is an 8 Ohm speaker really 8 Ohms? So let's standardize it and use a 2.83 Volt signal to the loudspeaker.
> ...


 
 Not all speakers are 8 Ohms, most are but the one time you get it wrong can be oogly. I always thought that 10 Head-Fiers would give you at least 20 answers plus numerous revisions.


----------



## StanD

chris j said:


> How about "cuddly"?


 
 That explains your Avatar.
 Can a HP be warm and fuzzy at the same time?


----------



## Chris J

stand said:


> That explains your Avatar.
> Can a HP be warm and fuzzy at the same time?


 
  
 My Beyer DT880 are warmer sounding than my Q701.  (in my opinion! subject to revision!)
 The ear pads are quite fuzzy, so I consider them the warm and fuzzy headphone. (in my opinion! subject to revision!)
  
 My Avatar is explained in my personal profile as is my opinion on Monica Bellucci.


----------



## GWagon

This may be a dumb question but do the batteries in amps drain when the amp is left on with no music playing through it?


----------



## BenF

gwagon said:


> This may be a dumb question but do the batteries in amps drain when the amp is left on with no music playing through it?


 
  
 Yes, although slower


----------



## StanD

chris j said:


> My Beyer DT880 are warmer sounding than my Q701.  (in my opinion! subject to revision!)
> The ear pads are quite fuzzy, so I consider them the warm and fuzzy headphone. (in my opinion! subject to revision!)
> 
> My Avatar is explained in my personal profile as is my opinion on Monica Bellucci.


 
 But does Monica Bellucci love EE's that love little polar bears?


----------



## Evshrug

chris j said:


> How about "cuddly"?



I adore cuddly! But I don't think cuddly, warm, or cold are good sound descriptors, what's worse is that people use them in a VERY general sense.



stand said:


> That explains your Avatar.
> Can a HP be warm and fuzzy at the same time?







gwagon said:


> This may be a dumb question but do the batteries in amps drain when the amp is left on with no music playing through it?



The very fact that you are seeking knowledge means it isn't a stupid question.

Answer: yes, the batteries drain when the amp is turned on without music playing or connected to an audio source. In fact, at a very slow rate, all rechargeable batteries drain over time even when devices are turned off (like my AA rechargeables, they drain over a couple weeks just sitting on the counter).


----------



## iSennheiser

I am really a newbie and do not understand the debate above... Sensitivity vs impedence, I know it a little, but I have a question, does battery level of portable amp affect the sound quality? i know it when the sound changes when my amp is about to die.


----------



## StanD

isennheiser said:


> I am really a newbie and do not understand the debate above... Sensitivity vs impedence, I know it a little, but I have a question, does battery level of portable amp affect the sound quality? i know it when the sound changes when my amp is about to die.


 
 Only when the level goes below what the amp is designed for, unless it is improperly designed. Batteries have a discharge curve and the design should be able to account for that. Many components, like opamps have a generous operating range but when the battery goes, generally it does so quickly and it's internal resistance goes up.
 Take a peek at curves and info at the below links:
http://www.powerstream.com/AA-tests.htm
http://www.ti.com/lit/an/snva533/snva533.pdf


----------



## Chris J

isennheiser said:


> I am really a newbie............ I have a question, does battery level of portable amp affect the sound quality? i know it when the sound changes when my amp is about to die.




Practically speaking, no.
I certainly can't hear the difference between 80% of battery charge remaining and 20% remaining.

Anybody else?


----------



## iSennheiser

stand said:


> Only when the level goes below what the amp is designed for, unless it is improperly designed. Batteries have a discharge curve and the design should be able to account for that. Many components, like opamps have a generous operating range but when the battery goes, generally it does so quickly and it's internal resistance goes up.
> Take a peek at curves and info at the below links:
> http://www.powerstream.com/AA-tests.htm
> http://www.ti.com/lit/an/snva533/snva533.pdf




You're hardcore, thx appreciated!


----------



## StanD

chris j said:


> Practically speaking, no.
> I certainly can't hear the difference between 80% of battery charge remaining and 20% remaining.
> 
> Anybody else?


 
 Sounds good to me. The actual voltage difference between what is 80% and 20% battery remaining shouldn't be much and any affect it has on Vp-p should be too slight to notice, unless you're using a volt meter - lol.


----------



## Chris J

stand said:


> But does Monica Bellucci love EE's that love little polar bears?


 
  
 Probably not.
  
 Oh well.
 One more thing on my bucket list that will never happen.


----------



## StanD

chris j said:


> Probably not.
> 
> Oh well.
> One more thing on my bucket list that will never happen.


 
 You give up too easily.


----------



## xianrenzhang

think so, I think on the E11, the settings are 2.5x and 4.5x, a 5.1 dB difference.  Something lower than 2.5x would help IEM users.


----------



## BenF

I'm confused by bass boost description of the FIIO website. It says 5dB at 100Hz, but the graph on the same page tells a different story:

 Can you please update the graph with v2 measurements?


----------



## jazzman7

benf said:


> I'm confused by bass boost description of the FIIO website. It says 5dB at 100Hz, but the graph on the same page tells a different story:
> 
> Can you please update the graph with v2 measurements?


 
 That is definitely the original v1 version.  Here's a graph of the production version (quoted from a past post):
  
 http://www.jensign.com/FiiOE17/BodePlots/
  
 The bass boost starts in the midrange, peaks at 50Hz and rolls off below that.


----------



## BenF

jazzman7 said:


> That is definitely the original v1 version.  Here's a graph of the production version (quoted from a past post):
> 
> http://www.jensign.com/FiiOE17/BodePlots/
> 
> The bass boost starts in the midrange, peaks at 50Hz and rolls off below that.


 
  
 Peak at 50hz was supposed to be the V1...


----------



## Hal Rockwell

V1 peaks at 20Hz


----------



## JUSTINDTH

benf said:


> I'm confused by bass boost description of the FIIO website. It says 5dB at 100Hz, but the graph on the same page tells a different story:
> 
> Can you please update the graph with v2 measurements?


 

 I too am confused. I purchased an E12 early evening last night after reading review after review dated between feb and may 2013. I chose this amp due to all the reviews claiming the bass boost was in the sub bass frequencies (exactly what I felt I needed from my HD600 when listening to punk music). After making the purchase I now find contradicting information on fiio's website. A claim of >5db @ 100Hz, but a chart showing a peak at the sub bass frequencies, not 100Hz. A higher frequency boost is not what I wanted at all, I feel I have that with the E11 already, which I don't enjoy the sound of and leave turned off at all times.


----------



## BenF

hal rockwell said:


> V1 peaks at 20Hz


 
  
  
 if V1 peaks at 20Hz, and V2  peaks at 100Hz (according to FIIO website), than what version peaked at 50Hz?


----------



## Hal Rockwell

If I recall correctly, V2 supposed to peak at 50 or 70.


----------



## BenF

hal rockwell said:


> If I recall correctly, V2 supposed to peak at 50 or 70.


 
  
 According to FIIO website, "*Bass Boost Range* > 5dB @ 100Hz"


----------



## Hal Rockwell

I know but this is not what I remember. I think that the correct number is written somewhere in this thread.


----------



## waynes world

justindth said:


> I too am confused. I purchased an E12 early evening last night after reading review after review dated between feb and may 2013. I chose this amp due to all the reviews claiming the bass boost was in the sub bass frequencies (exactly what I felt I needed from my HD600 when listening to punk music). After making the purchase I now find contradicting information on fiio's website. A claim of >5db @ 100Hz, but a chart showing a peak at the sub bass frequencies, not 100Hz. A higher frequency boost is not what I wanted at all, I feel I have that with the E11 already, which I don't enjoy the sound of and leave turned off at all times.


 
  
 From James here:
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/620339/fiio-flagship-portable-amp-mont-blanc-e12-discussing-thread-the-pre-order-unit-arrives/1005#post_9132609
  


> The curve of the new bass boost will change to the red line
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## miceblue

jamesfiio said:


> First, finally I changed my ID from feiao to JamesFiiO. and I can still keep all my posts in the past years.
> 
> About the bass boost feature in Mont Blanc, we decide to change the design, as you can see , the current frequency response is as below
> 
> ...


----------



## BenF

This means that both graph and specification on FIIO site are incorrect.


----------



## StanD

justindth said:


> I too am confused. I purchased an E12 early evening last night after reading review after review dated between feb and may 2013. I chose this amp due to all the reviews claiming the bass boost was in the sub bass frequencies (exactly what I felt I needed from my HD600 when listening to punk music). After making the purchase I now find contradicting information on fiio's website. A claim of >5db @ 100Hz, but a chart showing a peak at the sub bass frequencies, not 100Hz. A higher frequency boost is not what I wanted at all, I feel I have that with the E11 already, which I don't enjoy the sound of and leave turned off at all times.


 
 I have both an E11 as well as an E12 and understand your concern. The E12 bass boost does not extend as high as the one in the E11. I use it with my HD600 and like the E12 Bass Boost. You can hear Synthesizers dragging down to rock bottom lows with the E12 and HD600.


----------



## Change is Good

This thread needs some life to it...


----------



## StanD

change is good said:


> This thread needs some life to it...


 
 So how does your E12 compare to your Schiit Asgard 2?​


----------



## pietcux

I have an E12 Limited Edition incoming so I can compare with this standard E12 around Christmas. As I am not the only one, there will be much life within the E12 treads for sure....


----------



## JUSTINDTH

I received my E12 2 days ago. It must be a newer version I think as the bass boost switch seems to really thicken the sound. It does not sound to my ears like a subtle change. I'm sure many would really enjoy what the bass boost on this newer version does, however it is not what I want to complement my specific set of headphones. Would anyone be interested in trading their v1 for my newer model? I feel that the v1 may be more of what I am looking for in terms of an added bass boost.


----------



## sbradley02

justindth said:


> I received my E12 2 days ago. It must be a newer version I think as the bass boost switch seems to really thicken the sound. It does not sound to my ears like a subtle change. I'm sure many would really enjoy what the bass boost on this newer version does, however it is not what I want to complement my specific set of headphones. Would anyone be interested in trading their v1 for my newer model? I feel that the v1 may be more of what I am looking for in terms of an added bass boost.


 

 Very few v1 were made. Almost all are v2.


----------



## Shawn71

sbradley02 said:


> Very few v1 were made. Almost all are v2.


 
 +1, I got mine 3 months ago and believe to be newer......


----------



## Shawn71

justindth said:


> I received my E12 2 days ago. It must be a newer version I think as the bass boost switch seems to really thicken the sound. It does not sound to my ears like a subtle change. I'm sure many would really enjoy what the bass boost on this newer version does, however it is not what I want to complement my specific set of headphones. Would anyone be interested in trading their v1 for my newer model? I feel that the v1 may be more of what I am looking for in terms of an added bass boost.


 

 The Bass Boost on my E12 is a true smooth transition on my HD600.......no affect or whatsoever in other areas than bass.


----------



## Chris J

shawn71 said:


> +1, I got mine 3 months ago and believe to be newer......


 
  
 I got mine 8-9 months ago, it was version 2.


----------



## Mediahound

chris j said:


> I got mine 8-9 months ago, it was version 2.




How can I tell which version I have? I'm selling mine but would like to tell potential buyers which version it is.


----------



## BenF

mediahound said:


> How can I tell which version I have? I'm selling mine but would like to tell potential buyers which version it is.


 
  
 Unless you bought it during the "beta" period, you have versions 2 - a.k.a "production version".


----------



## JUSTINDTH

I would like to trade my 4 day old (new version) E12 for a version 2 E12. Anyone feel like switching with me? My number by the security scratchy thing at the top of the box says K344b. Anyone know which numbers correspond to which versions?

I see now fiio has updated their website to show the current version frequency reaponse graph. Thank you fiio.


----------



## knowyoutang

I don't believe I've heard it yet from a FiiO but just making sure it's there. I have some very low impendence and easy to drive 16 ohm IEM's that are sensitive to that kind of stuff. They aren't expensive, nor do I use them often, but my O2 has a slight problem just as you turn the volume up from nothing.


----------



## BenF

justindth said:


> I would like to trade my 4 day old (new version) E12 for a version 2 E12. Anyone feel like switching with me? My number by the security scratchy thing at the top of the box says K344b. Anyone know which numbers correspond to which versions?
> 
> I see now fiio has updated their website to show the current version frequency reaponse graph. Thank you fiio.


 

 Your 4 day old E12 is already version 2.


----------



## StanD

benf said:


> Your 4 day old E12 is already version 2.


 
 That came out funny


----------



## miceblue

knowyoutang said:


> I don't believe I've heard it yet from a FiiO but just making sure it's there. I have some very low impendence and easy to drive 16 ohm IEM's that are sensitive to that kind of stuff. They aren't expensive, nor do I use them often, but my O2 has a slight problem just as you turn the volume up from nothing.



I'm not sure what you're asking, but if you're wondering if the E12 has a channel imbalance at low volume levels like the O2 does, then the answer is yes the E12 does have the low-volume channel imbalance.


----------



## JUSTINDTH

benf said:


> Your 4 day old E12 is already version 2.




I must admit I am quite confused on how many versions there are. My understanding is as follows;
Version 1 was preproduction and bass boost was 20Hz
Version 2 was production version and boost was 50Hz
Version 3 is current version and is >5db @ 100Hz

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong. I just want to trade what I have, for a more subtle boost.


----------



## StanD

miceblue said:


> I'm not sure what you're asking, but if you're wondering if the E12 has a channel imbalance at low volume levels like the O2 does, then the answer is yes the E12 does have the low-volume channel imbalance.


 
 Probably a mistracking of channels in the volume control.


----------



## jazzman7

justindth said:


> I must admit I am quite confused on how many versions there are. Must understanding is as follows;
> Version 1 was preproduction and bass boost was 20Hz
> Version 2 was production version and boost was 50Hz
> Version 3 is current version and is >5db @ 100Hz
> ...


 
 I think there are only two versions.  JamesFiiO indicated the change from the pre-production model to the production model back in Post 1008:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/620339/fiio-flagship-portable-amp-mont-blanc-e12-discussing-thread-the-pre-order-unit-arrives/1005#post_9132609
  
 The red curve in that post is very similar (perhaps identical) to the published one on FiiO's website for the production E12:
  
 http://fiio.com.cn/UploadFiles/main/Images/2013/12/20131207182737.jpg
  
 The curve on FiiO's website also matches another produced by another Head-fi'er via RIAA measurement:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/671590/rmaa-comparison-fiio-e17-alpen-and-e12-mont-blanc
  
 The curves can be hard to compare because there is no reference level chosen in either of the FiiO curves (e.g. 0dB at 1kHz).


----------



## JUSTINDTH

jazzman7 said:


> I think there are only two versions.  JamesFiiO indicated the change from the pre-production model to the production model back in Post 1008:


 
  
 It would be nice if we can get an official response from fiio. Perhaps James is willing to chime in here?


----------



## Change is Good

Doubt it... James has chimed in on this topic enough times, already.


----------



## pngwn

I'm confused... where did you hear about a new version with an even "higher" bass boost? This is the second time, that I remember, that someone has posted in this thread about mysterious versions past the official production model, aka version 2.


----------



## StanD

pngwn said:


> I'm confused... where did you hear about a new version with an even "higher" bass boost? This is the second time, that I remember, that someone has posted in this thread about mysterious versions past the official production model, aka version 2.


 
 Must be one of those Internet Myths. From what I understand there was a pre-production version that  a few got and the rest have the production curve.


----------



## gearofwar

hello everyone, i'm currently interested in getting an amp for jh 13 for a start. Would fiio e12 be a great fit for jh 13? thanks


----------



## pietcux

That depends on the requirements regarding output impedance of your Jh 13. My E12 can run my Sony MDR-EX1000 and the XBA-H3 perfectly, but they are both @ 32 / 40 Ohm. So not very amp picky.


----------



## BenF

gearofwar said:


> hello everyone, i'm currently interested in getting an amp for jh 13 for a start. Would fiio e12 be a great fit for jh 13? thanks


 

 JH13 is extremely sensitive, doesn't need an amp.
 You should buy a DAC though, as it will improve the SQ greatly. I recommend the ODAC.
 You can put E12 down the chain as well, but DAC is more important.


----------



## JeremyR

My new mobile setup


----------



## StanD

jeremyr said:


> My new mobile setup


 
 So what are you plugging into the E12 and how does it sound to you?
 I find that my E12 can drive Hifiman HE-500's and Sennheiser HD600's.
 Edit: I mean drive them well.


----------



## JeremyR

stand said:


> So what are you plugging into the E12 and how does it sound to you?
> I find that my E12 can drive Hifiman HE-500's and Sennheiser HD600's.
> Edit: I mean drive them well.


 
  
 I should be getting my Alpha Dogs within the next few weeks. That's what this setup is for, Only thing I have right now to play with is some Sony MA900's. Being they are very low impedance, this amp is overkill, however I can tell a difference due to the better quality components over just plugging it into the Clip+.
  
 I tried to take the photo with the Rockbox logo on the Clip, but it doesn't stay up long enough. (sounds like a "that's what she said" joke)


----------



## StanD

jeremyr said:


> I should be getting my Alpha Dogs within the next few weeks. That's what this setup is for, Only thing I have right now to play with is some Sony MA900's. Being they are very low impedance, this amp is overkill, however I can tell a difference due to the better quality components over just plugging it into the Clip+.
> 
> I tried to take the photo with the Rockbox logo on the Clip, but it doesn't stay up long enough. (sounds like a "that's what she said" joke)


 
 Those MA900's have an impednce of 12 Ohms so the very low output impedance of the E12's help tighten the bass by providing a good damping ratio. I'm sure that the Dog's will be howling once the make it into town.


----------



## pngwn

jeremyr said:


> stand said:
> 
> 
> > So what are you plugging into the E12 and how does it sound to you?
> ...


 
  
 Overkill? Eh, maybe. For the AD900x, which is similarly priced and tiered as the MA900, $400 worth of DAC and amp (aune T1 > iFi iCAN) might be overkill, but I'll be damned if it doesn't sound ******* amazing. As StanD wrote, the E12 will provide some nice tightening up of the bass. Let us know what you think!


----------



## gearofwar

benf said:


> JH13 is extremely sensitive, doesn't need an amp.
> You should buy a DAC though, as it will improve the SQ greatly. I recommend the ODAC.
> You can put E12 down the chain as well, but DAC is more important.



Thanks for response. ODAC seems to be a problem for me now because it is a usb plugin DAC and doesn't support Apple devices, does it? I think a DAP may be a solution to me?


----------



## StanD

gearofwar said:


> Thanks for response. ODAC seems to be a problem for me now because it is a usb plugin DAC and doesn't support Apple devices, does it? I think a DAP may be a solution to me?


 
 I believe that some iDevices can support an USB DAC by using the CCK (Camera Connection Kit). You will have to do your homework to research this. Maybe one of the _geniuses_ in an Apple store can help with compatibility, advice on audio quality maybe not so much.


----------



## akash neagi

I was thinking of getting a E17 and E12 combo...
 Note 3->E17(DAC only using L7)->E12->XBA-3/Momentum/HD518...
 Is it a bad idea???


----------



## miceblue

gearofwar said:


> benf said:
> 
> 
> > JH13 is extremely sensitive, doesn't need an amp.
> ...



iPhone 4S running iOS 7 -> Apple Camera Connection Kit -> USB cable -> unpowered USB hub -> USB-miniUSB cable -> ODAC -> 3.5 mm interconnect -> JDS Labs C5 -> V-MODA Crossfade M-100 -> my ears



Why is the hub there? Because without it, this happens.



[rule]
Alternatively, the new JDS Labs C5D (D for DAC) is self-powered, so the hub isn't necessary.
iPhone 4S running iOS 7 -> Apple Camera Connection Kit -> USB-miniUSB cable -> C5D -> V-MODA Crossfade M-100 -> my ears



Or with some Android devices, the USB OTG option is available too with a miniUSB-microUSB cable


----------



## StanD

akash neagi said:


> I was thinking of getting a E17 and E12 combo...
> Note 3->E17(DAC only using L7)->E12->XBA-3/Momentum/HD518...
> Is it a bad idea???


 
 You might consider getting the E18 instead of the E17 and skip the E12. The E18 has a little more amp power than the E17. I have an XBA-3, Momentum and HD558 (same transducer as the HD518) , among my collection and the amp in the E18 DAC/Amp can handle these easily. The XBA-3 will benefit the most as it's impedance is lowest and the lower impedance of an amp will improve the damping factor and tighten up the bass.I have a Galaxy S3 and it works well with the E18, so does my Windoze laptop.
 Is there a particular reason that you chose the E17?
 The E12 comes in handy for me with cans that are more power hungry than what you've listed, like my HE-500's. The E18 can even drive my HD600's but the E12 can drive them even louder as in ear splitting = more headroom.


----------



## akash neagi

stand said:


> You might consider getting the E18 instead of the E17 and skip the E12. The E18 has a little more amp power than the E17. I have an XBA-3, Momentum and HD558 (same transducer as the HD518) , among my collection and the amp in the E18 DAC/Amp can handle these easily. The XBA-3 will benefit the most as it's impedance is lowest and the lower impedance of an amp will improve the damping factor and tighten up the bass.I have a Galaxy S3 and it works well with the E18, so does my Windoze laptop.
> Is there a particular reason that you chose the E17?
> The E12 comes in handy for me with cans that are more power hungry than what you've listed, like my HE-500's. The E18 can even drive my HD600's but the E12 can drive them even louder as in ear splitting = more headroom.


 
 Thanks for your input!!!
 The reason for selecting the e17 is firstly I like the warmer signature of the wolfson dac...
 I'm kind of a basshead but I also like my mids and highs...
 It also has a optical in which the e18 doesn't...
 Plus I want to get an e9 later on for a desktop solution...or maybe a vali and mangi...
 Kogan in Australia offers the HD650 for $350 with waranty so that's going to be my next purchase...
 I hear the e18 is not as warm sounding as the e17...
 I have been thinking about this combo for some time now but couldn't find anyone who has actually done it...


----------



## StanD

akash neagi said:


> Thanks for your input!!!
> The reason for selecting the e17 is firstly I like the warmer signature of the wolfson dac...
> I'm kind of a basshead but I also like my mids and highs...
> It also has a optical in which the e18 doesn't...
> ...


 
 Warmer,there's opinion's either way,you'll have to trust your own ears. Wow an HD650 for $350 sounds like a great deal.


----------



## akash neagi

stand said:


> Warmer,there's opinion's either way,you'll have to trust your own ears. Wow an HD650 for $350 sounds like a great deal.


 
 Yeah it is..
 I think I'm gonna get the combo...
 Whats the worst that's gonna happen I won't like the e17(cuz I love the e12)...
 And if that does happen I'd still have a dac to use with the e9k so I'll get it...
 Thanks for your input...
 And if you do want a hd650 i think kogan ships worldwide...


----------



## StanD

akash neagi said:


> Yeah it is..
> I think I'm gonna get the combo...
> Whats the worst that's gonna happen I won't like the e17(cuz I love the e12)...
> And if that does happen I'd still have a dac to use with the e9k so I'll get it...
> ...


 
 Enjoy the new kit. My wallet is going to take some time off for now, I just got an HE-500 6 days ago and I also have to give the new cans some undivided attention,


----------



## Shawn71

Get the hd 600 instead......if you get a deal....better then hd 650.


----------



## akash neagi

stand said:


> Enjoy the new kit. My wallet is going to take some time off for now, I just got an HE-500 6 days ago and I also have to give the new cans some undivided attention,


 
  
 I'm actually getting momentums in a few days(YAY) so I wont get the amp/dac now ill get it a few weeks later...
 I hear great things about the HE-600 hope you like them....
 Oh maybe you can help me out does the e17 work with the note3???
 I have a s3 now but I'll get the note 3 very soon...
  


shawn71 said:


> Get the hd 600 instead......if you get a deal....better then hd 650.


 
 Isn't the 650 warmer???
 I like my cans to be warm...


----------



## StanD

akash neagi said:


> I'm actually getting momentums in a few days(YAY) so I wont get the amp/dac now ill get it a few weeks later...
> I hear great things about the HE-600 hope you like them....
> Oh maybe you can help me out does the e17 work with the note3???
> I have a s3 now but I'll get the note 3 very soon...
> ...


 
 In my pile of cans lays a pair of over ear Momentums, you will probably like them as long as they make it comfortably around your ears. They are easily driven and can hang off a phone or DAP. There's a thread on USB DACs and Android. The below is a snippit of something that I found in that thread in a downloadable file about the Note3.
 A list of standard USB DAC reportedly interworking with the Android-powered smartphone Samsung Galaxy Note3:
  
 stock Samsung Galaxy Note3 > digital USB audio out >> USB OTG cable (ID pin grounded) >> standard USB DAC >> amp >> headphones
 :
 :
 . FiiO E17 (USB DAC/amp):
http://www.headfonia.com/the-upgrade-fiio-e17-alpen/


----------



## akash neagi

stand said:


> In my pile of cans lays a pair of over ear Momentums, you will probably like them as long as they make it comfortably around your ears. They are easily driven and can hang off a phone or DAP. There's a thread on USB DACs and Android. The below is a snippit of something that I found in that thread in a downloadable file about the Note3.
> A list of standard USB DAC reportedly interworking with the Android-powered smartphone Samsung Galaxy Note3:
> 
> stock Samsung Galaxy Note3 > digital USB audio out >> USB OTG cable (ID pin grounded) >> standard USB DAC >> amp >> headphones
> ...


 
 Thanks StanD...
 I've used the momentum before through my s3 and I couldn't reach proper volume levels...
 I searched the forums and found out that it's a problem a lot of people had and was fixed using an amp...


----------



## StanD

akash neagi said:


> Thanks StanD...
> I've used the momentum before through my s3 and I couldn't reach proper volume levels...
> I searched the forums and found out that it's a problem a lot of people had and was fixed using an amp...


 
 I have the US version of the S3 and it is loud enough, The International version is of a different design whihc has the Wolfson DAC. Which software did you use to listen with? Poweramp has a preamp setting and if it's turned down you might experience something like you reported.


----------



## akash neagi

stand said:


> I have the US version of the S3 and it is loud enough, The International version is of a different design whihc has the Wolfson DAC. Which software did you use to listen with? Poweramp has a preamp setting and if it's turned down you might experience something like you reported.




I have the international version so the wolfson dac...
I use the stock player cuz I like it the most...
I find that the bass and treble are both better extended in the stock player compared to poweramp whick I do have...
Plus I love eqing my mueic and I find that the stock player is easy and effective...


----------



## akash neagi

Ps happy new year!!!
I'm out of my country so didn't have net till now so sorry for the late reply....
About to buy the momentum in 2 days!!!!


----------



## StanD

akash neagi said:


> I have the international version so the wolfson dac...
> I use the stock player cuz I like it the most...
> I find that the bass and treble are both better extended in the stock player compared to poweramp whick I do have...
> Plus I love eqing my mueic and I find that the stock player is easy and effective...


 
 If it works for you and you're happy you're good to go. Most people that have used Poweramp think differently. The best EQ is with NeutronMP, it's parametric, harder to use and has a terrible user interface but sounds great.


----------



## Shawn71

Yeah Neutron is an excellent PE out there especially if you tweak the settings very properly.Poweamp is good as well when it comes EQ league but Neutron excels in shaping the proper sound......you need to spend some extra time and fiddle around to settle to suit yours......


----------



## subver

Hey I'm thinking of getting an E12 to use with my iPod Classic 7th gen - using Beyerdynamic DT 770's - just curious what cable people are using for this.. all I keep seeing is how there is no good cable configuration... have we found a better setup?
  
 I'm still trying to decide between E11 and E12 for my DT770's


----------



## StanD

subver said:


> Hey I'm thinking of getting an E12 to use with my iPod Classic 7th gen - using Beyerdynamic DT 770's - just curious what cable people are using for this.. all I keep seeing is how there is no good cable configuration... have we found a better setup?
> 
> I'm still trying to decide between E11 and E12 for my DT770's


 
 If you can get the E12, do it. You can't use the E11 while the battery is charging, however, the E12 can charge and operate at the same time. Although you can change the battery for the E11, you would have to get a spare and external charger. Also the E12 is built much better, is more powerful and has a better sounding bass boost.


----------



## subver

Yeah I want to get the E12... What about the cable to attach an iPod classic? Which configuration is best?


----------



## StanD

subver said:


> Yeah I want to get the E12... What about the cable to attach an iPod classic? Which configuration is best?


 
 I'm not an iDevice guy, but they have a L3 and L9 cables, look at the below links and figure out what's best for you.
http://fiio.com.cn/products/index.aspx?ID=100000033169373&MenuID=105026015


----------



## subver

Yeah it's just that from what I read those common cables seemed a bit cumbersome when trying to connect it to an iPod with headphones plugged in.. Hmm I will have to keep researching.. I definitely want to get the E12 though, the cable at this point is my main concern, although I suppose it's not super important, it won't be kept in my pocket


----------



## subver

Actually what is this an L3? http://i.imgur.com/9Jcw6I6.jpg
That looks fine to me..


----------



## miceblue

Yeah the front panel layout of the E12 is terribly awkward, so you can't really do much about the cable. I would recommend the L3 if you don't mind adding 2 inches in length to your rig.


----------



## subver

Cool, yeah I don't mind that so much, as long as it's really a significant improvement from E11. I'd love a shorter length L3 but I won't be keeping it in my pocket for any duration really. Still.. Not ideal but hey..


----------



## Hijodelbrx

subver said:


> Yeah I want to get the E12... What about the cable to attach an iPod classic? Which configuration is best


 
  
 I have an 160GB IP classic that I use with an E12.  IMO it's essential to use an LOD.  Ordered a Fiio L9 (considered their best, only cost $8-9 bucks) from the same company at the same time I ordered my E12.  I use HD600's w/Cardas cable or UE TF10's w/HPL cable.  I've been into audio/good sound for over 30 yrs, this rig satisfies me completely!  As far as those complaining about the button layout and the way the cable lies, I really don't see it as a problem....at all!


----------



## subver

Yeah I saw it with the L9, I think I kinda like the L3 better.. I almost wonder if I could find some kind of strap or coil that can go around the headphone and L3 cable.. Just getting nitpicky though


----------



## pietcux

I have the L3 for some time already. The E12 has a very strong grip on the cable, so does the Ipod Classic as the cable is locked into place and has two release buttons. I actually lift the E12/Ipod package using this cable as a grip, when pulling it out of my shirt pocket. Very convenient. And as all my headphones come with a right angled device plug, there is no cable hassle at all for me, you just need to get used to it.
 Sound wise all of my headphones benefit from the pure power of the E12, especially in the bass section, even at low volumes. The E12 is so good that I even ordered the E12DIY limited edition to be able to roll opamps and buffs....


----------



## StanD

pietcux said:


> I have the L3 for some time already. The E12 has a very strong grip on the cable, so does the Ipod Classic as the cable is locked into place and has two release buttons. I actually lift the E12/Ipod package using this cable as a grip, when pulling it out of my shirt pocket. Very convenient. And as all my headphones come with a right angled device plug, there is no cable hassle at all for me, you just need to get used to it.
> Sound wise all of my headphones benefit from the pure power of the E12, especially in the bass section, even at low volumes. The E12 is so good that I even ordered the E12DIY limited edition to be able to roll opamps and buffs....


 
 If you like the bass boost switch, I believe the E12DIY doesn't have one. Rolling opamps is probably a waste of time, unless you want to and have fun tinkering. If I remember the stock opamps have low distortion and the greatest output power/voltage.


----------



## ClieOS

stand said:


> If you like the bass boost switch, I believe the E12DIY doesn't have one. *Rolling opamps is probably a waste of time*, unless you want to and have fun tinkering. If I remember the stock opamps have low distortion and the greatest output power/voltage.


 
  
 If the original E12 is the greatest ever, FiiO wouldn't have bother with E12DIY in the first place. You can think of E12 is a mixed breed horse that is meant to balanced endurance, speed and pulling power, but E12DIY is meant to be a purebred for the best speed possible. There are better opamp than the one in stock E12. Of course, not everyone need the fastest horse around.


----------



## sandman2338

subver said:


> Yeah I saw it with the L9, I think I kinda like the L3 better.. I almost wonder if I could find some kind of strap or coil that can go around the headphone and L3 cable.. Just getting nitpicky though


 
 What I usally do is take a spring from an old pen and wrap it around the cable knid of like this pic


----------



## dtheory

This thing is awesome


----------



## StanD

stand said:


> If you like the bass boost switch, I believe the E12DIY doesn't have one. Rolling opamps is probably a waste of time, unless you want to and have fun tinkering. If I remember the stock opamps have low distortion and the greatest output power/voltage.


 
  
  


clieos said:


> If the original E12 is the greatest ever, FiiO wouldn't have bother with E12DIY in the first place. You can think of E12 is a mixed breed horse that is meant to balanced endurance, speed and pulling power, but E12DIY is meant to be a purebred for the best speed possible. There are better opamp than the one in stock E12. Of course, not everyone need the fastest horse around.


 
 Since the E12 is a closed loop negative feedback design and the distortion levels of all combinations of opamps in the DIY are far below a human's ability to perceive, I'd think that the main thing to look out for is the drive capabilities. As I remember, the stock configuration contains the opamps with the best drive capabilities from the DIY. Are there any significant differences in transient distortion, probably not as most of these amps have more than enough of a slew rate as not to be an issue in the audio band. I'd categorize the DIY as a fun tinker as you will gadget for those who just want to have fun fooling around with their kit.
 Edit:I noticed a difference in output drive specs using the "OPA1611 and LME49600" for both stock and DIY products that amounts to about 1.8 dB at 300 Ohms. Is this FiiO slipping up on their paperwork?


----------



## ClieOS

The idea of all amp sounds equally transparent is only possible when each and every amp is individually optimized perfectly to sound transparent to the load. Theoretically nice but practically not easy. Adding a bass boost could add some distortion, adding crossfeed might take away space that could better lay out the circuit to improve separation. Thus there is the question of whether the circuit is truly optimized or not. While it should be that the E12 is good beyond "human's ability to perceive", same can be said to O2 or C5. But if you volume match them in a blind test, there is still possible to tell them apart. Well, at least I can when I did the test awhile back.


----------



## subver

sandman2338 said:


> What I usally do is take a spring from an old pen and wrap it around the cable knid of like this pic




Yeah that's a good idea.. I meant more along the lines of something that could wrap around the L3 and headphone cable.. Something to just keep the wires nice and tight and organized. I could just look around a craft store for something, I'm sure there's something I could use.


----------



## Hijodelbrx

In my big ol' stereo rig I'm obsessive about keeping all the spaghetti (cables) neat an unobtrusive. I use mini tie wraps. I'd never use them on my, comparatively speaking, tiny headphone rig but hey, whatever floats yr boat!


----------



## subver

Yeah I was thinking that or even just a little velcro strap.. nothing crazy, just a thought.


----------



## StanD

clieos said:


> The idea of all amp sounds equally transparent is only possible when each and every amp is individually optimized perfectly to sound transparent to the load. Theoretically nice but practically not easy. Adding a bass boost could add some distortion, adding crossfeed might take away space that could better lay out the circuit to improve separation. Thus there is the question of whether the circuit is truly optimized or not. While it should be that the E12 is good beyond "human's ability to perceive", same can be said to O2 or C5. But if you volume match them in a blind test, there is still possible to tell them apart. Well, at least I can when I did the test awhile back.


 
 Using bass boost with enough headroom will avoid distortion. Without bass boost or crossfeed (which I rarely use) what exactly is there in the "circuit optimization" that can make the amp sound different? And of course a proper damping ratio need be in place. Flat response will not change as the amp does voltage amplification and if it can supply the required current for the load, the FR is flat and no distortion should result. A proper blind test would require the source driving multiple amps, simultaneously, matching the volume by using a meter at each output and having a switch that can quickly swap the cans between the amps. Of course another person must do the switching without your knowledge. Also the music should be on a short loop that has enough range in the music.
 So what is the technical or "circuit optimization" that will make things different? Comparative listening for small differences is a difficult task for the finest of ears.


----------



## pietcux

stand said:


> Using bass boost with enough headroom will avoid distortion. Without bass boost or crossfeed (which I rarely use) what exactly is there in the "circuit optimization" that can make the amp sound different? And of course a proper damping ratio need be in place. Flat response will not change as the amp does voltage amplification and if it can supply the required current for the load, the FR is flat and no distortion should result. A proper blind test would require the source driving multiple amps, simultaneously, matching the volume by using a meter at each output and having a switch that can quickly swap the cans between the amps. Of course another person must do the switching without your knowledge. Also the music should be on a short loop that has enough range in the music.
> So what is the technical or "circuit optimization" that will make things different? Comparative listening for small differences is a difficult task for the finest of ears.


 

 As I ordered the DIY i was thinking like you, but wanted to give it a try. Now that I have the DIY I can hear that they sound different to the standard E12 and that the different oamps/buffs all sound a little different or provide a different sound stage. I cannot say something about better or worse, but different. That is interesting play like thing, but not totally necessary. So your standard E12 is alright, no question.


----------



## StanD

pietcux said:


> As I ordered the DIY i was thinking like you, but wanted to give it a try. Now that I have the DIY I can hear that they sound different to the standard E12 and that the different oamps/buffs all sound a little different or provide a different sound stage. I cannot say something about better or worse, but different. That is interesting play like thing, but not totally necessary. So your standard E12 is alright, no question.


 
 Most people are unaware of how human auditory memory works or doesn't. If you were given a proper blind test, you would be surprised at the results. There are very basic parameters involved, nothing so special other than the human component which can easily skew the results.


----------



## pietcux

I read a lot about blind test and know that they are correct. And the thing is that even when there are audible differences, if you do not compare you will get used to a sound supply chain and do not miss anything as your brain will "equalize" that sound to the sounds that you know from reality like live concerts. I read that people where claiming that the Gramophones provided high fidelity.


----------



## StanD

pietcux said:


> I read a lot about blind test and know that they are correct. And the thing is that even when there are audible differences, if you do not compare you will get used to a sound supply chain and do not miss anything as your brain will "equalize" that sound to the sounds that you know from reality like live concerts. I read that people where claiming that the Gramophones provided high fidelity.


 
 Now that last one is definitely an extreme case. How about the people that claim that Beats provide high fidelity? In that case, I might pick the Gramophone before the Beats.


----------



## ClieOS

stand said:


> Using bass boost with enough headroom will avoid distortion. Without bass boost or crossfeed (which I rarely use) what exactly is there in the "circuit optimization" that can make the amp sound different? And of course a proper damping ratio need be in place. Flat response will not change as the amp does voltage amplification and if it can supply the required current for the load, the FR is flat and no distortion should result. A proper blind test would require the source driving multiple amps, simultaneously, matching the volume by using a meter at each output and having a switch that can quickly swap the cans between the amps. Of course another person must do the switching without your knowledge. Also the music should be on a short loop that has enough range in the music.
> So what is the technical or "circuit optimization" that will make things different? Comparative listening for small differences is a difficult task for the finest of ears.


 
  
 Shortening of the analog path will reduce possibility of interference as well as noise from passive components (i.e. E12DIY is fully shielded from EMI where E12 isn't), better layout of the circuitry can improve separation, lesser active components that generates noise, especially in the power section, too will improve SNR. More current can be fed to the amp section because less is needed elsewhere. Even as you have said - by removing bass boost, you can free up a little bit of headroom that would otherwise needed so bass boost won't result in clipping. All the little bits add up.
  
 Yes, that's a blind test. I won't say it is laboratory standard, but it is as close as it can be done in a home, with SPL meter and multimeter to match things up.


----------



## StanD

clieos said:


> Shortening of the analog path will reduce possibility of interference as well as noise from passive components (i.e. E12DIY is fully shielded from EMI where E12 isn't), better layout of the circuitry can improve separation, lesser active components that generates noise, especially in the power section, too will improve SNR. More current can be fed to the amp section because less is needed elsewhere. Even as you have said - by removing bass boost, you can free up a little bit of headroom that would otherwise needed so bass boost won't result in clipping. All the little bits add up.
> 
> Yes, that's a blind test. I won't say it is laboratory standard, but it is as close as it can be done in a home, with SPL meter and multimeter to match things up.


 
 I haven't noticed any interference with my E12. FiiO doesn't mention any changes to shielding in their literature that I've seen I'd think they'd tout any such improvements. Are you saying that they entirely laid out a new PC board that noticeably improves separation and that there was a problem with separation? The plugins for the opamps in the DIY actually have a potential for decreasing separation and increasing stray coupling  Have they redesigned the circuit and removed components (lesser) or do you mean that they've used better components and if so which ones? This device uses a battery, which acts as a huge deterrent to noise, what have they changed in the power section? Removing bass boost in the DIY has the same affect as simply switching off the bass boost in the standard product, so I don't understand how that "adds up." Were these statements for the sake of discussing what is possible?
 I guess you didn't use a switch for the comparative test or run on a loop of music. Even if you match levels with a meter after swapping cables, too much time and attention is taken away from a human comparative test.


----------



## miceblue

I get electromagnetic interference all the time with my E12 whenever I tried to use it as a portable amp. The noise is so bad that it deters me from using it as such an amp...I literally have to take my headphones off because the noise is so loud for me.


----------



## StanD

miceblue said:


> I get electromagnetic interference all the time with my E12 whenever I tried to use it as a portable amp. The noise is so bad that it deters me from using it as such an amp...I literally have to take my headphones off because the noise is so loud for me.


 
 Maybe you have a defective cable or the E12 itself is daft. What is the source of the EMI?


----------



## miceblue

stand said:


> miceblue said:
> 
> 
> > I get electromagnetic interference all the time with my E12 whenever I tried to use it as a portable amp. The noise is so bad that it deters me from using it as such an amp...I literally have to take my headphones off because the noise is so loud for me.
> ...



The cable works just fine as I get minimal EMI from the JDS Labs C5 using the same setup (iPhone 4S -> FiiO L9 -> amp -> V-MODA Crossfade M-100) in the same areas of use (typically where there is a lack of cell phone coverage).


----------



## StanD

miceblue said:


> The cable works just fine as I get minimal EMI from the JDS Labs C5 using the same setup (iPhone 4S -> FiiO L9 -> amp -> V-MODA Crossfade M-100) in the same areas of use (typically where there is a lack of cell phone coverage).


 
 Maybe your E12 is defective, I get none of it with mine. I also have an E18 DAC which picks up a small amount of EMI from my Galaxy S3. I found that I can almost eliminate that by putting the cellphone and E18 back to back, twisting the OTG cable and offsetting the two devices so that the E18 volume knob sticks out past the cellphone. In any case the EMI to the E18 is slight and only occurs just as happened to you, when switching or seeking cell towers. My E12 has not exhibited such problems. You should ask FiiO about this, why put up with it.


----------



## ClieOS

stand said:


> I haven't noticed any interference with my E12. FiiO doesn't mention any changes to shielding in their literature that I've seen I'd think they'd tout any such improvements. Are you saying that they entirely laid out a new PC board that noticeably improves separation and that there was a problem with separation? The plugins for the opamps in the DIY actually have a potential for decreasing separation and increasing stray coupling  Have they redesigned the circuit and removed components (lesser) or do you mean that they've used better components and if so which ones? This device uses a battery, which acts as a huge deterrent to noise, what have they changed in the power section? Removing bass boost in the DIY has the same affect as simply switching off the bass boost in the standard product, so I don't understand how that "adds up." Were these statements for the sake of discussing what is possible?
> I guess you didn't use a switch for the comparative test or run on a loop of music. Even if you match levels with a meter after swapping cables, too much time and attention is taken away from a human comparative test.


 
  
 I have a switch. In fact, it is made by FiiO for the purpose of A/Bing. But I guess you are just not going to take any words I have said for what they are. That's fine, but I don't want to keep arguing in loop. If you want the detail, read the E12DIY thread carefully and all the info is right in there.
  
 Just one last thing: yes, E12 and E12DIY has totally different PCB layout.


----------



## StanD

clieos said:


> I have a switch. In fact, it is made by FiiO for the purpose of A/Bing. But I guess you are just not going to take any words I have said for what they are. That's fine, but I don't want to keep arguing in loop. If you want the detail, read the E12DIY thread carefully and all the info is right in there.
> 
> Just one last thing: yes, E12 and E12DIY has totally different PCB layout.


 
 I took a quick peek at the DIY thread in the past. I'll read through it in the next day or two.


----------



## TechoGeek

I've completed the first charge of the E12 and started listening with my new K550's but I think I may have a problem. I have to turn the volume knob more than halfway to get a decent volume, and the sound is muffled. I'm definitely not a professional but it's that noticeable. After reading reviews I new the sound stage of the 550's may take a hit from the amp but has anyone experienced the volume being lower when connected to the amp and having muffled sound? I'm comparing this to the headphones connected directly to my J3 and to a defective E11.


----------



## Hijodelbrx

Not familiar with yr headphones but the 1st thing that comes to my mind is the gain switch on the E12. If yr not getting sufficient volume this might be the answer. Try it at 16. Hope that helps!


----------



## Hijodelbrx

....BTW, if yr gain is set at zero, you want to be sure that yr volume is turned DOWN before you go to 16! Seriously, the difference in volume is extreme.


----------



## TechoGeek

Thanks, I'll give it a try. I just thought I wouldn't need to raise the gain since the E11 didn't require it and the E12 is supposed to be much more powerful.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4


----------



## pietcux

techogeek said:


> I've completed the first charge of the E12 and started listening with my new K550's but I think I may have a problem. I have to turn the volume knob more than halfway to get a decent volume, and the sound is muffled. I'm definitely not a professional but it's that noticeable. After reading reviews I new the sound stage of the 550's may take a hit from the amp but has anyone experienced the volume being lower when connected to the amp and having muffled sound? I'm comparing this to the headphones connected directly to my J3 and to a defective E11.


 

 Hi I have the Ultrasone Signature PRO. It has the same sensitivity as your K550. At least that is what Tyll Hertsens published on Inner Fidelity. It is 0.033 vs 0.035 volt RMS for 90 dB SPL. I only need 11 o'clock for a loud noise level. 12 o'clock is too loud for me for longer listening. And for longer session I prefer 10 o'clock.
 Test setup:
 Ipod Classic 120gb EU capped version >LOD>Fiio E12 @ low gain> Ultrasone Signature PRO


----------



## TechoGeek

pietcux said:


> Hi I have the Ultrasone Signature PRO. It has the same sensitivity as your K550. At least that is what Tyll Hertsens published on Inner Fidelity. It is 0.033 vs 0.035 volt RMS for 90 dB SPL. I only need 11 o'clock for a loud noise level. 12 o'clock is too loud for me for longer listening. And for longer session I prefer 10 o'clock.
> Test setup:
> Ipod Classic 120gb EU capped version >LOD>Fiio E12 @ low gain> Ultrasone Signature PRO


 
 Thanks, I'm glad I could confirm something is wrong with the volume part of it. Only when I switched the gain on as Hijodelbrx suggested did I get the volume levels you're describing. I'll be returning it today and will probably go without an amp  while I do more research. I like to play without EQ and the E12 changed the sound to much for me. Unfortunately I do not think the E12 is a good match for the K550's. I'm wondering if I received a totally bum unit because I can't believe the E11 is less coloured, but that's what I'm hearing when I do the A-B comparison.


----------



## pietcux

How many hours did your E12 play? I am asking, because when mine was new, I made a comment in this thread that the E12 sounds worse than the Ipod without it. But that changed after lets say 40 hours. James from Fiio stated that the capacitors of the amp need to kinda settle some time before they provide the cleanest sound. I feel that that is true.


----------



## StanD

pietcux said:


> How many hours did your E12 play? I am asking, because when mine was new, I made a comment in this thread that the E12 sounds worse than the Ipod without it. But that changed after lets say 40 hours. James from Fiio stated that the capacitors of the amp need to kinda settle some time before they provide the cleanest sound. I feel that that is true.


 
 Capacitors settling in? I think James was spinning a yarn.


----------



## pietcux

stand said:


> Capacitors settling in? I think James was spinning a yarn.



StanD, could you please inform us where you get all your wisdom from? As per now it looks like we all should stop posting here because finally the MASTER has come to save us all.


----------



## Chris J

stand said:


> Most people are unaware of how human auditory memory works or doesn't. If you were given a proper blind test, you would be surprised at the results. There are very basic parameters involved, nothing so special other than the human component which can easily skew the results.




please read the posting rules.

No DBT discussions outside the Science Forum. 

just thought I'd say something before the moderators get involved........


----------



## TechoGeek

pietcux said:


> How many hours did your E12 play? I am asking, because when mine was new, I made a comment in this thread that the E12 sounds worse than the Ipod without it. But that changed after lets say 40 hours. James from Fiio stated that the capacitors of the amp need to kinda settle some time before they provide the cleanest sound. I feel that that is true.




I had it just for a day and had already shipped it back when I read your reply. After the issue with the volume I didn't want to take any chances that I just had a bad unit. Its to bad because I was really hyped about getting it. For future reference would you know if the "settle time" exclusive to the E12?

Sent from my Nexus 7 2013 using Tapatalk 4


----------



## pietcux

A lot of people claim that it is true for each and every amp out there. I only had this strong effect with the E12.


----------



## StanD

pietcux said:


> StanD, could you please inform us where you get all your wisdom from? As per now it looks like we all should stop posting here because finally the MASTER has come to save us all.


 
 Anyone that spends a few years in college studying Electrical Engineering is required to learn a few things. A *Masters* Degree helps. Although one can study this on their own from a wealth of written materials that are available to all.


----------



## pietcux

You know most of the prople here only enjoy music and non scientifical talk about their devices.


----------



## StanD

pietcux said:


> You know most of the prople here only enjoy music and non scientifical talk about their devices.


 
 But you brought up the scientific myth about capacitors. I just don't think it's fair to spread such so I was setting the record straight. I'm sure that you didn't intend to mislead anyone, I do know a thing or two about capacitors.


----------



## Chris J

stand said:


> Anyone that spends a few years in college studying Electrical Engineering is required to learn a few things. A *Masters* Degree helps. Although one can study this on their own from a wealth of written materials that are available to all.



 


You're not answering the question.
Your profile shows you're a person who likes music and photography.
And you write bugs for a living.


----------



## StanD

chris j said:


> stand said:
> 
> 
> > Anyone that spends a few years in college studying Electrical Engineering is required to learn a few things. A *Masters* Degree helps. Although one can study this on their own from a wealth of written materials that are available to all.
> ...


 
 I started out as an Electrical Engineer designing Microprocessor based Instrumentation systems that measured down to 125 nV (Billionth's of a Volt) per bit When in college I designed and modified Electronic Music Synthesizers, which was at the time analog computers, and designed/modified/worked on audio designs for recording studios, in NYC. I also worked at Bell Laboratories for almost 7 years, well before it fell to Lucent. There I worked on Analog and Digital systems, for audio, Nowadays I design and write software for a "Too Big Too Fail" Bank/Brokerage, the Stress testing and Risk Analysis stuff. I just might know a thing or two. Some of the theories I've read around here are not amusing. Although for many this is a hobby full of the usual subjective stuff, I just feel bad when someone says something that is not right and may unduly influence an innocent reader. Sometimes people are mislead and spend a great deal of money in pursuit of something imagined or misstated by another.
 Resume over....
 "Write bugs for a living," is meant to be humorous.


----------



## pietcux

stand said:


> I started out as an Electrical Engineer designing Microprocessor based Instrumentation systems that measured down to 125 nV (Billionth's of a Volt) per bit When in college I designed and modified Electronic Music Synthesizers, which was at the time analog computers, and designed/modified/worked on audio designs for recording studios, in NYC. I also worked at Bell Laboratories for almost 7 years, well before it fell to Lucent. There I worked on Analog and Digital systems, for audio, Nowadays I design and write software for a "Too Big Too Fail" Bank/Brokerage, the Stress testing and Risk Analysis stuff. I just might know a thing or two. Some of the theories I've read around here are not amusing. Although for many this is a hobby full of the usual subjective stuff, I just feel bad when someone says something that is not right and may unduly influence an innocent reader. Sometimes people are mislead and spend a great deal of money in pursuit of something imagined or misstated by another.
> Resume over....
> "Write bugs for a living," is meant to be humorous.


 

 I am on my knees...........


----------



## waynes world

pietcux said:


> I am on my knees...........


 
  
 Well, he was asked repeatedly about his credentials, so he can't be faulted for stating them (assuming they are true).


----------



## StanD

pietcux said:


> I am on my knees...........


 
 You can get up now


----------



## StanD

waynes world said:


> Well, he was asked repeatedly about his credentials, so he can't be faulted for stating them (assuming they are true).


 
 So, I spent over half my life in a dream.


----------



## pietcux

You might want to check out this thread:
  
 http://www.bottlehead.com/smf/index.php?topic=751.0


----------



## StanD

pietcux said:


> You might want to check out this thread:
> 
> http://www.bottlehead.com/smf/index.php?topic=751.0


 
 I have used very expensive capacitors where they are needed in fancy Integrators for Analog to Digital Conversion. In that case Dielectric Absorption and leakage were important factors. These are not factors in headphone amps. The factor that is relevant is the value of capacitance as it affects reactance, assuming operating voltage and the like were selected properly at design time there are no other issues to be concerned about. There is a tolerance to this value and a temperature coefficient. If the circuit design was done correctly these could not possibly be detectable to the ear as any changes should result in db values that are far too small for us to hear as how it affects an amp. If these values changed significantly with burn in there would be far larger related issues in this world beyond just headphone amps. If you look on the Internet you will find people that state that man never landed on the moon or that Abraham Lincoln was a vampire. I'd spend more time enjoying my listening to music than chasing these stories. Far too many people imagine stuff or are affected by these stories and give life to fiction. I understand that from your perspective you may not know what to believe. If you want to believe this, that's fine with me. Just keep in mind there are so many fruity stories out there that can consume a person that doesn't have an engineering background.


----------



## Chris J

stand said:


> I started out as an Electrical Engineer designing Microprocessor based Instrumentation systems that measured down to 125 nV (Billionth's of a Volt) per bit When in college I designed and modified Electronic Music Synthesizers, which was at the time analog computers, and designed/modified/worked on audio designs for recording studios, in NYC. I also worked at Bell Laboratories for almost 7 years, well before it fell to Lucent. There I worked on Analog and Digital systems, for audio, Nowadays I design and write software for a "Too Big Too Fail" Bank/Brokerage, the Stress testing and Risk Analysis stuff. I just might know a thing or two. Some of the theories I've read around here are not amusing. Although for many this is a hobby full of the usual subjective stuff, I just feel bad when someone says something that is not right and may unduly influence an innocent reader. Sometimes people are mislead and spend a great deal of money in pursuit of something imagined or misstated by another.
> Resume over....
> "Write bugs for a living," is meant to be humorous.




The original question was a fair one.......what are your credentials?
Head Fi and the internet are filled with people who have a strong opinion and little or no technical knowledge.
The Science Friction forum is filled with people trying to save us from ourselves....:rolleyes:

OTOH, I suspect there is something seriously flawed in the DBT model, I suspect auditory long term memory can be quite good, however this is not the forum for DBT debates so I should take my own advice and let it drop.....

While I'm not a big believer in burn-in, I do believe some equipment does sound better after warmed up for 30 minutes to an hour......


----------



## StanD

chris j said:


> The original question was a fair one.......what are your credentials?
> Head Fi and the internet are filled with people who have a strong opinion and little or no technical knowledge.
> The Scinece forum is filled with people trying to save us from ourselves....
> 
> ...


 
 Well I stated what I can, anything else including DNA samples are out of the question.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Anything that I stated can be found in Electrical Engineering reference material and text books, feel free to look these things up as these are not written by "people who have a strong opinion and little or no technical knowledge." I've stated in one way or another that anyone is free to believe any of the myths as it may please them, I've only stated my professional case which you are free to accept or reject.
 Yes some equipment works better after a warm up period but this is far from an extended burn in period. I doubt that any well designed SS amp requires much of any warmup period.


----------



## Chris J

stand said:


> Well I stated what I can, anything else including DNA samples are out of the question.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Not too sure what I have said that falls into the classification of a myth?  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I can't find any reference to that thing that I will not name again in any of my texts.  That gets into the realm of psychology anyway.....................
  
 Man are we off topic.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Back on topic, I think my E12 is great for what it is $120.00
 Discuss among yourselves.


----------



## StanD

chris j said:


> Not too sure what I have said that falls into the classification of a myth?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Back on topic.....My E12 and E18 will be on the bus with me tomorrow. Man is it going to be cold, I think I'll take my on ear Momentums and use them double duty, headphones/ear muffs.
 I have a pair of Sony XBA-3's that work much better with an amp, and they usually commute with me.


----------



## JeremyR

to change the subject... I just made this. I like doing leatherwork as a hobby. Just waiting for my 6 inch 3.5mm cable


----------



## Chris J

jeremyr said:


> to change the subject... I just made this. I like doing leatherwork as a hobby. Just waiting for my 6 inch 3.5mm cable




Looks great!
Colour me envious!
Dumb question, what's that thing on the outside?


----------



## JeremyR

chris j said:


> Looks great!
> Colour me envious!
> Dumb question, what's that thing on the outside?


 
  
 The round one is a larger headphone jack. I plan on using this setup with the Alpha Dogs, and the standard cable on those does not have a 3.5mm headphone jack. The square black thing is a Sansa Clip+ with Rockbox firmware installed on it. It's my DAC. It's small and cheap, but very good.
  
 http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000068O6B/
 http://www.amazon.com/SanDisk-Sansa-Clip-Player-Blue/dp/B002MAPSC6
 http://www.rockbox.org/


----------



## Chris J

jeremyr said:


> The round one is a larger headphone jack. I plan on using this setup with the Alpha Dogs, and the standard cable on those does not have a 3.5mm headphone jack. The square black thing is a Sansa Clip+ with Rockbox firmware installed on it. It's my DAC. It's small and cheap, but very good.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000068O6B/
> http://www.amazon.com/SanDisk-Sansa-Clip-Player-Blue/dp/B002MAPSC6
> http://www.rockbox.org/



 


very cool!

thanks.

Chris


----------



## AudeoPhreak9

Looking at the E12 for my first portable, I have Amperior's and Audeo Phonak PFE 122.  Any experience with the Senn's or Audeo PFE and your E12?


----------



## kernel8888

Want to buy an e12 if anyone is selling.


----------



## Change is Good

kernel8888 said:


> Want to buy an e12 if anyone is selling.


 
  
 Have you checked the classifieds?


----------



## Scorpion667

Snagged an E12 about a week ago from Headfoneshop Toronto.
  
 Absolutely love the unit.
  
 I am going to try coating the side of the amp closest to my phone with high quality 3M EMI Shielding tape to try and reduce EMI from 3G/LTE/Wifi. Using Airplane Mode until I can get my hands on it. Will let you guys know how it goes.
  
 Setup is iPhone 5 -> official Lightning to 30 pin adapter -> Fiio L9 cable -> E12 -> Ultrasone Pro 900
  
 Low gain, no crossfeed, no bass boost (well on some dubstep tracks I turn it on). I commute about 4 hours a day and listen to music throughout that time, and 30-45 minutes at work. I have yet to charge it in 3 days and the battery warning light has yet to show.
  
 Build quality is excellent.


----------



## Chris J

scorpion667 said:


> Snagged an E12 about a week ago from Headfoneshop Toronto.
> 
> Absolutely love the unit.
> 
> ...




Nice!
It's a great amp for the money!
I must confess, sometimes I turn the bass boost on.
Don't tell anyone please?


----------



## StanD

chris j said:


> Nice!
> It's a great amp for the money!
> I must confess, sometimes I turn the bass boost on.
> Don't tell anyone please?


 
 You Philistine....me too.


----------



## Scorpion667

chris j said:


> Nice!
> It's a great amp for the money!
> I must confess, sometimes I turn the bass boost on.
> Don't tell anyone please?


 
 And you call yourself an audiophile! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I DEFINITELY like some color in my lows, but the Pro 900's already do that for me passively. Most of the time


----------



## Chris J

I feel shame.......


----------



## StanD

chris j said:


> I feel shame.......


 
 OK, so what have you ordered and not told us about? Confess, you've been spending again, admit it.


----------



## JeremyR

stand said:


> OK, so what have you ordered and not told us about? Confess, you've been spending again, admit it.


 
  
 I think the shame is on him using bass boost .


----------



## StanD

chris j said:


> I feel shame.......


 
  
  


stand said:


> OK, so what have you ordered and not told us about? Confess, you've been spending again, admit it.


 
  
  


jeremyr said:


> I think the shame is on him using bass boost .


 
 Then he is not alone.


----------



## waynes world

chris j said:


> I must confess, sometimes I turn the bass boost on.
> Don't tell anyone please?


 
  
 Don't tell anyone, but I leave mine on permanently. Not sure if it's because it's the "version 1" or not, but I see absolutely no reason to turn it off.. love it.


----------



## StanD

Closet bassheads.


----------



## Chris J

I feel shame because SOMETIMES I use the bass boost.
 Usually with Q701s.
  
 Like I said earlier, don't tell anyone!


----------



## StanD

chris j said:


> I feel shame because SOMETIMES I use the bass boost.
> Usually with Q701s.
> 
> Like I said earlier, don't tell anyone!


 
 I have to confess, right now I've got my Galaxy S3 plugged into an FiiO E18 DAC and its line out to a Schiit Vali to an HD600. I'm using NeutronMP to play music and I've got the parametric EQ low band set to 80hz, the Q turned up just right and I'm not telling how many DB I've boosted the sub bass. Sounds good to me, I'm listening to Yes, "The Miracle of Life."  Who knows what's next, maybe The Who.


----------



## jazzman7

Funny, I have the version 1 model and know of the bass rolloff, but don't engage it.  I use EQ on my rockboxed iPod to which it is connected, though.   I don't view the frequency tilt of the E12 to be an issue. 
  
 For those who want to have some fun, though, here are some simple parametric EQ parameters to "equalize" the frequency response of the FiiO E12.  Data has been grabbed from Jensinger's post here:
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/671590/rmaa-comparison-fiio-e17-alpen-and-e12-mont-blanc#post_9601573
  
 Bass filter:  Gain = +0.3dB, Center Frequency = 13 Hz, Q = 0.4
 Treble filter:  Gain = -0.1dB, Center Frequency = 10000 Hz, Q = 0.2
  
 The resulting curve is flat to within +/-0.05dB from 20 Hz to 20000 Hz.
  
 The parameters are Rockbox-friendly; that is, you can get Rockbox to implement them, but you'll need to edit the equalizer .cfg file with a text editor to get access to the parameter values needed.
  
 Going back and forth with the above preset, I do notice that the stock E12 sound is a teensy-bit brighter than flat.  The bass rolloff is very hard to hear and probably won't be apparent unless you listening to explosions (movies/gaming).


----------



## Chris J

stand said:


> I have to confess, right now I've got my Galaxy S3 plugged into an FiiO E18 DAC and its line out to a Schiit Vali to an HD600. I'm using NeutronMP to play music and I've got the parametric EQ low band set to 80hz, the Q turned up just right and I'm not telling how many DB I've boosted the sub bass. Sounds good to me, I'm listening to Yes, "The Miracle of Life."  Who knows what's next, maybe The Who.


 
  
 Yes.
 You never know who's next.


----------



## RoMee

The E12's bassboost works?:eek: I've always thought it was a placebo switch for you audiophile type, like a $200 cable or the K712 and K701 are different headphones.


----------



## StanD

stand said:


> I have to confess, right now I've got my Galaxy S3 plugged into an FiiO E18 DAC and its line out to a Schiit Vali to an HD600. I'm using NeutronMP to play music and I've got the parametric EQ low band set to 80hz, the Q turned up just right and I'm not telling how many DB I've boosted the sub bass. Sounds good to me, I'm listening to Yes, "The Miracle of Life."  Who knows what's next, maybe The Who.


 
  
  


chris j said:


> Yes.
> You never know who's next.


 
 Who? Tommy?


----------



## StanD

romee said:


> The E12's bassboost works?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 It only works if you have a $200 interconnect and silver  headphone cables. Otherwise, nada.


----------



## Scorpion667

I'm getting REALLY good battery life from my E12. I see people claiming 14-16 hours, but I'm pushing well over 20 and the battery indicator still hasn't come on. Does cold weather make batteries last longer? It's like -25c outside.
  
 I commute 4 hours a day, music on the whole time. About 45mins to an hour listening at work. Another hour at home.
  
 Perhaps it's because I keep volume around 30-40% (low gain) and use 40ohm headphones but DAMN, colour me impressed.
  
 I just hate how clunky the lightning to 30 pin adapter + L9 cable is. Adds about 3.5cm length to my portable assembly lol. Not sure how long that's gonna last as I wear fitted pants mostly. Thank god for crapple's warranty though, they swap devices for me really easy. I know warranty processes inside out as I work in technical services field so that probably helps lol. Guessing the Lightning port or Lightning to 30 Pin adapter will be the first to go. 
  
 Does anyone know where I can snag some of those rubber adhesive pads similar to the ones that come with the E12? One's starting to shift a bit and I only got two spares. Wouldn't mind some spare rubber bands either. I like to be prepared.


----------



## miceblue

I left mine on in my room, at minimal volume, on low-gain, not connected to any headphones, and it lasted around 13-14 hours on a full charge.


----------



## Hutnicks

scorpion667 said:


> I'm getting REALLY good battery life from my E12. I see people claiming 14-16 hours, but I'm pushing well over 20 and the battery indicator still hasn't come on. Does cold weather make batteries last longer? It's like -25c outside.
> 
> I commute 4 hours a day, music on the whole time. About 45mins to an hour listening at work. Another hour at home.
> 
> ...


 

 Generally cold will kill battery life like nothing else..


----------



## Chris J

hutnicks said:


> Generally cold will kill battery life like nothing else..




Doesn't the E12 have a Lithium battery?
lithium batteries are far less affected by the cold temperatures than the olde skule batteries, like your car battery.


----------



## StanD

chris j said:


> Doesn't the E12 have a Lithium battery?
> lithium batteries are far less affected by the cold temperatures than the olde skule batteries, like your car battery.


 
 They don't like the cold either.


----------



## pngwn

stand said:


> chris j said:
> 
> 
> > Doesn't the E12 have a Lithium battery?
> ...


 
  
 But are they far less affected?


----------



## StanD

pngwn said:


> But are they far less affected?


 
 Than a car battery? Even though it was 5F this morning, I wasn't about to test either battery.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I am definitely affected.


----------



## Chris J

pngwn said:


> But are they far less affected?




I have seen Li-polymer batteries rated at 80 % of rated capacity at -40 C.
Refer to:
wewinbattery.com
for example.

The truth is it depends on the technology of the actual battery FiiO uses.


----------



## Layman1

Hi, I've read there's a new version (v2) of the E12 available.
 I'm in the UK and want to order one. I've looked on Amazon.co.uk, but there are only two entries for the E12 and neither of them specify whether they are version 1 or 2 of the amp!
  
 Is there any way of telling (from the device itself, and without opening it up, whether it's a v2 or not?
 Also, is there a specific code/serial number for versions 1 and 2?
 All advice welcome, thanks!


----------



## Layman1

NB: am talking about the mass release v2, not the custom!


----------



## Shawn71

There's no versioning of models but gain switch change in db output and one more is there , both physically visible to differentiate 2 designs....thats about it.


----------



## Shawn71

layman1 said:


> NB: am talking about the mass release v2, not the custom!




yes thats E12 DIY.....


----------



## Layman1

shawn71 said:


> There's no versioning of models but gain switch change in db output and one more is there , both physically visible to differentiate 2 designs....thats about it.


 
 Sorry, I greatly appreciate you taking time to reply, but I haven't quite understood your meaning!
 Could you explain in in little bit more detail? Specifically as to whether there are physical differences which will let me know which version I've got?


----------



## Chris J

layman1 said:


> Sorry, I greatly appreciate you taking time to reply, but I haven't quite understood your meaning!
> Could you explain in in little bit more detail? Specifically as to whether there are physical differences which will let me know which version I've got?




Any new E12 NON-DIY you will buy today is version 2.
The case is black.
It's that simple.


----------



## pngwn

layman1 said:


> shawn71 said:
> 
> 
> > There's no versioning of models but gain switch change in db output and one more is there , both physically visible to differentiate 2 designs....thats about it.
> ...


 
  
 Whoa, let's backpedal a little bit. There are indeed 2 different version of the E12, minus the DIY limited edition which I'm excluding from this entire conversation. The first version, which was released as a pre-order in some 200 or so units, features a much lower frequency bass boost that affects the subbass frequencies. The later, mass-produced version featured a slightly higher frequency bass boost that hit toward a more typical mid-bass boost as well as (?) a different amount of gain.
  
 As to physical differences, I'm not knowledgeable enough on the two versions to say for sure, but perhaps messaging the vendor will help? IIRC, the serial numbers of the two versions ARE different, though.


----------



## Chris J

pngwn said:


> Whoa, let's backpedal a little bit. There are indeed 2 different version of the E12, minus the DIY limited edition which I'm excluding from this entire conversation. The first version, which was released as a pre-order in some 200 or so units, features a much lower frequency bass boost that affects the subbass frequencies. The later, mass-produced version featured a slightly higher frequency bass boost that hit toward a more typical mid-bass boost as well as (?) a different amount of gain.
> 
> As to physical differences, I'm not knowledgeable enough on the two versions to say for sure, but perhaps messaging the vendor will help? IIRC, the serial numbers of the two versions ARE different, though.




...and if you buy a new one it will be Version 2: the lotsa bass boost version.


----------



## Shawn71

layman1 said:


> Sorry, I greatly appreciate you taking time to reply, but I haven't quite understood your meaning!
> Could you explain in in little bit more detail? Specifically as to whether there are physical differences which will let me know which version I've got?




The below picture is the very first version with 16db gain(I think) and the current version has 10db gain. Also look out the 2 female 3.5mm jacks that shines gold color internally.....

 edit »»» the LED indicator is just single and its shared for both power and charging. The vol knob is different too.


----------



## BenF

shawn71 said:


> The below picture is the very first version with 16db gain(I think) and the current version has 10db gain. Also look out the 2 female 3.5mm jacks that shines gold color internally.....
> 
> edit »»» the LED indicator is just single and its shared for both power and charging. The vol knob is different too.


 

 I have the V2, and it's 16dB gain...


----------



## pietcux

You can check out the first page of this thread. All real pictures show the current version that I also have. Only the drawings are not the real thing. And the picture that was used above seems also a little unreal to me, as if it was photo shopped.
  Maybe it is an in between pictures that Fiio replaced later on this thread.


----------



## Shawn71

benf said:


> I have the V2, and it's 16dB gain...



FiiO might have retained the same 16db setting on the face lifted body........then converted to 10db gain from 16fb thru slight/minor circuitry alteration w/o affecting other components due to customer complaints/not good reviews earned, especially on the gain,.

Maybe clieOS shed some light here.......or James for that matter.


----------



## Change is Good

I also have v2 and its 16db


----------



## ClieOS

shawn71 said:


> FiiO might have retained the same 16db setting on the face lifted body........then converted to 10db gain from 16fb thru slight/minor circuitry alteration w/o affecting other components due to customer complaints/not good reviews earned, especially on the gain,.
> 
> Maybe clieOS shed some light here.......or James for that matter.


 
  
 It has always been 16dB on the high gain, since the very first batch and as far as I know, never been changed.
  
 It was 10dB in early design but FiiO changed it to 16dB before the production begin. So some of the early review unit were sent out with the old housing that has the 10dB marking, but in fact they are all 16dB in high gain. Some reviewer never measured the unit themselves and took the marking at face value in their review and thought it has a +10dB gain, which of course is incorrect. The only difference between the first (and early review) batch and the so call 'V2', is in the bass boost, not the gain.


----------



## Shawn71

clieos said:


> It has always been 16dB on the high gain, since the very first batch and as far as I know, never been changed.
> 
> It was 10dB in early design but FiiO changed it to 16dB before the production begin. So some of the early review unit were sent out with the old housing that has the 10dB marking, *but in fact they are all 16dB in high gain. Some reviewer never measured the unit themselves and took the marking at face value in their review and thought it has a +10dB gain, which of course is incorrect. The only *difference between the first (and early review) batch and the so call 'V2', is in the bass boost, not the gain.



TY. But if its still 16db hi-gain why still FiiO mark them as 10db? The picture below of current run and the one I have is same. Really confusing.......


----------



## JamesFiiO

shawn71 said:


> TY. But if its still 16db hi-gain why still FiiO mark them as 10db? The picture below of current run and the one I have is same. Really confusing.......


 
  
 or your is the first batch , or our there are some stocked case and our factory use it in the newest batch. anyway, it is just a silk screen mistake and sorry for that if it make you confuse .


----------



## Shawn71

jamesfiio said:


> or your is the first batch , or our there are some stocked case and our factory use it in the newest batch. anyway, it is just a silk screen mistake and sorry for that if it make you confuse .




Thx James! That clears the air......for a moment..But FYI I just bought mine sep '2013 from MP4 which is like hardly little over 100 days old...so maybe i got mine from old stock aluminium shell with 10db hi gain printed. Still scratching my head, as the 10db aluminium shells were initially manufactured for a limited quantity of just 200(if im not wrong) and so i received a shell which is like a year and half old approximately? Hmm :confused_face(1):

So james, finally you confirm that .........

1) E12 never had 10db hi-gain but ONLY 16db for end-users.
2) E12 underwent only bass boost mods in the circuit,as told by ClieOS.
3) though older aluminium shells has the 10db marking but actually is 16db functionwise.


----------



## Evshrug

shawn71 said:


> 1) E12 never had 10db hi-gain but ONLY 16db for end-users.
> 2) E12 underwent only bass boost mods in the circuit,as told by ClieOS.
> 3) though older aluminium shells has the 10db marking but actually is 16db functionwise.



This is what James said last year. It's all in this thread, around the time they changed the functionality of the bass boost. 

In-house beta testing models had a 10 dB high-gain option, but at the last minute they decided a 16 dB high-gain would be more useful and all E12 models sold had the 16dB gain. They had already made enclosures with "10 dB" silk-screened/printed on it, so that is the only visible characteristic different about the first batch of amps.

The only sonic characteristic that ever changed between that first batch and all since then was that the bass boost targets a higher frequency. The +dB of the boost is the same 6dB, just FiiO deemed that people would appreciate a bass boosting more in the frequency ranges where more instruments can play...

I personally really like the original bass boost, it mostly improves bass extension (because most open headphones tend to drop dB in the lowest frequencies) rather than coloring the sound, but I suppose if FiiO hadn't changed it, there would be more users complaining that the boost hardly makes a difference (wouldn't understand what was being boosted).


----------



## pngwn

Wow, you sure evs is the one who needs to do letting go?


----------



## pietcux

It's all good, let's get back to enjoying our stuff. Please avoid a fight......


----------



## RoMee

pngwn said:


> Wow, you sure evs is the one who needs to do letting go?


 
 I guess I should had word it better. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 My apologies for the off topic rant.


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!


----------



## cachitongo

I gotta say:  I've had my E12 for a few weeks now - along with a new set of HD650s.  I'm really happy - I'm a budget audiophile but I also know what to expect from a good system - having played music and been an avid music listener all of my life.  I am really happy with the 'bang for the buck' with this system!  The E12 has plenty of power for the HD 650s on the 16dB setting (and my SR60 and my Shure E5 IEM on the 0 gain setting).  I find it neutral and that it allows me to discern the differences beetween the different headphones.  I'm really happy with them!  Eventually, I need to listen to some other amps (other than my old BitHead from 10 years ago).  The bass boost is helpful on cans that are a little lean in the bottom-end but not necessary with 'warm' cans.  I find the crossfeed function absolutely useless unless you are listening to old recordings that have some instruments in one ear and other instruments in the other which is very annoying.  Otherwise, the battery life is stellar, the sound quality is stellar and the availability of the bass boost when needed is stellar.  Most importantly for me, it's portable!  Wow.  What a bargain.


----------



## StanD

cachitongo said:


> I gotta say:  I've had my E12 for a few weeks now - along with a new set of HD650s.  I'm really happy - I'm a budget audiophile but I also know what to expect from a good system - having played music and been an avid music listener all of my life.  I am really happy with the 'bang for the buck' with this system!  The E12 has plenty of power for the HD 650s on the 16dB setting (and my SR60 and my Shure E5 IEM on the 0 gain setting).  I find it neutral and that it allows me to discern the differences beetween the different headphones.  I'm really happy with them!  Eventually, I need to listen to some other amps (other than my old BitHead from 10 years ago).  The bass boost is helpful on cans that are a little lean in the bottom-end but not necessary with 'warm' cans.  I find the crossfeed function absolutely useless unless you are listening to old recordings that have some instruments in one ear and other instruments in the other which is very annoying.  Otherwise, the battery life is stellar, the sound quality is stellar and the availability of the bass boost when needed is stellar.  Most importantly for me, it's portable!  Wow.  What a bargain.


 
 The E12 packs a decent punch. It can do a surprising job of driving my HE-500's.
 Edit: If you are interested in a not expensive desktop amp, look into the Schiit Asgard 2.


----------



## Lohb

Does the E12 tend towards a warm sound or neutral/bright sound ? The build quality and pricing on their line of stuff is really excellent.
  
 I have an Altoid LM4562 opamp for mobile use which is good for my warmer cans but it is too bright/cold for my planars that both spike around 10-12k if you put the volume up to louder levels.
  
 The mWatts output on this fit the bill for Fostex T50RP by the looks of it, but not sure how it would pair with micro-detail cans with brighter upper end...
  
 I'm finding that generally so far ...mixing overall warmer DAP/DAC/AMP with detailed headphones
 or
 overall detailed/neutral DAP/DAC/AMP with warmer headphones balances things out with the overall sound signature I'm looking for.
  
 But detailed sources + detailed cans = harsh clinical precision
 and
 warm sources  + warm cans = muddy/bloated signature.
  
 Anyone using it specifically with HifiMan He-400/Fostex T50RP planars ?


----------



## miceblue

I find the E12 to sound warm and bright. I don't really use mine too much though since it has a narrow soundstage and the instrument separation isn't the clearest I've heard.


----------



## Lohb

miceblue said:


> I find the E12 to sound warm and bright. I don't really use mine too much though since it has a narrow soundstage and the instrument separation isn't the clearest I've heard.


 

 Warm & bright ! Uh...and here was I thinking one or the other. Is there any other sub-$150 portable amp you could recommend ?


----------



## Change is Good

lohb said:


> Warm & bright ! Uh...and here was I thinking one or the other. Is there any other sub-$150 portable amp you could recommend ?


 
  
 I have the V2, and (to me) w/o bass boost it seems bright/linear. With the bass boost on, however, it becomes warm... and less bright.
  
 So, I say both, also... but not *at the same time* kind of both.


----------



## miceblue

lohb said:


> miceblue said:
> 
> 
> > I find the E12 to sound warm and bright. I don't really use mine too much though since it has a narrow soundstage and the instrument separation isn't the clearest I've heard.
> ...



If you can spare the extra money, I really enjoy the Mad Dog and Alpha Dog modified T50RPs with the JDS Labs C5 ($190). It sounds much more transparent to my ears.
If you don't mind the size, the Objective 2 is my reference amp and it's $130 from JDS Labs; the C5 is pretty much the more portable version of the O2 with some compromises in the soundstage.


----------



## Lohb

Thanks ChangeisGood and MiceBlue....also looking at iBasso D-zero as well now...in search of that elusive audio chain synergy !


----------



## BenF

lohb said:


> ...
> Anyone using it specifically with HifiMan He-400/Fostex T50RP planars ?


 
 I use ODAC+E12 with HE-400 - sounds great.


----------



## StanD

change is good said:


> I have the V2, and (to me) w/o bass boost it seems bright/linear. With the bass boost on, however, it becomes warm... and less bright.
> 
> So, I say both, also... but not *at the same time* kind of both.


 
 If you boost the bass it should be normal to shift your perception as you are shifting the FR. The E18 sounds very good, I begin to wonder how much of the whinging is caused by expectation due to the chatter.


----------



## talisman42

I'm a huge fan of the E12 - but I wonder if any 'future' versions can have a switch for 50 or 100 hz boost instead of the crossfeed option. The DIY don't have any bass boost, but can users modify it to have a similar effect? I have no experience with playing around with the chips.


----------



## MiRaCL

Just got my E12 yesterday. Works great with my DT880 250ohm. 
 But i have one issue when using it with Shure SE535. I have constant background hiss/noise. This is even noticable when playing music with moderate volume. Is this just how it is or is it something faulty with my unit?


----------



## BenF

miracl said:


> Just got my E12 yesterday. Works great with my DT880 250ohm.
> But i have one issue when using it with Shure SE535. I have constant background hiss/noise. This is even noticable when playing music with moderate volume. Is this just how it is or is it something faulty with my unit?


 

 What happens when you plug DT880 directly into the source? Is it a clean sound?


----------



## MiRaCL

I get clean sound on both headphones from the same source (Galaxy Note2) The hiss i get with the SE535 is there even without a source connected.


----------



## Chris J

The E12 appears to have been designed as a powerful amp for power hungry headphones.
I'm not surprised, my E12 and my E17 are both too noisy for my Shure IEMs. 

I'm going to have to try all my amps again with IEMs.
E12 is good, E17 has some bzzzzzzzz.

My best headphone amp for IEMs is my iBasso D12!


----------



## BenF

miracl said:


> I get clean sound on both headphones from the same source (Galaxy Note2) The hiss i get with the SE535 is there even without a source connected.


 

 Are you sure the Gain setting isn't on?
 Otherwise, SE535 may just be too sensitive at 119dB SPL/mW.
 Why would you even need an amplifier for such sensitive IEM?
  
 How does SE535 sound through E12 when connected to a DAC?
 Smartphone/tablet output is always pretty noisy, even if you can't hear it.
 When that noise gets amplified by E12, then you can suddenly hear it.


----------



## StanD

chris j said:


> The E12 appears to have been designed as a powerful amp for power hungry headphones.
> I'm not surprised, my E12 and my E17 are both too noisy for my Shure IEMs.
> 
> My best headphone amp for IEMs is my iBasso D12!


 
 E12 noisy?  Even with the gain on low?


----------



## Chris J

stand said:


> E12 noisy?  Even with the gain on low?




I'll have to try the E12 out again with my Shure IEMs, but I seem to remember the noise was just a faint bbbzzzzzzzz.


----------



## StanD

stand said:


> E12 noisy?  Even with the gain on low?


 
  
  


chris j said:


> I'll have to try the E12 out again with my Shure IEMs, but I seem to remember the noise was just a faint bbbzzzzzzzz.


 
 My Sony XBA-3's are quiet on the E12.
 Try yours on low gain and report back..... Damn things are pretty sensitive, 119dB SPL/mW at 36 Ohms.


----------



## Hijodelbrx

Whether I'm using my E12 with my IEM (TF10) or cans (HD600) it's crystal clear. Not a hint of any kind of noise.


----------



## Chris J

Damn!
I don't know what I was thinking, E12 is quiet with Shure IEMs.
Gain is 0dB.

I must be thinking of either my FiiO E09K or the Matrix M Stage.
I seem to remember at least two of my amps had some bzzzzz and/or hissssss. The E17 and ........another one.
It is possible that I tried this on the Matrix with the gain on 10dB (which is where I normally leave it).
I never use high gain on the E09K.

Anyway, something to try tonight.


----------



## StanD

chris j said:


> Damn!
> I don't know what I was thinking, E12 is quiet with Shure IEMs.
> Gain is 0dB.
> 
> ...


 
 Maybe it's the Little Dot, it's a tube amp and they can have a _Little Dot bit_ of noise.


----------



## Chris J

stand said:


> Maybe it's the Little Dot, it's a tube amp and they can have a _Little Dot bit_ of noise.


 
  
 Maybe I'm completely insane......
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 All these "tests" were performed after setting the volume to a reasonable listening level,
 source is always from a computer via USB,
 headphones are always Shure SE210 IEMs,
*gains are all set to 0 dB:*
  
 Trying E12 driven from the iBasso D12 DAC line out jack...........very quiet, i.e. can't hear no stinkin' noise!
  
 Let's try the E17 VIA USB input _*while it's Charging*_........basically very quiet, but has a very faint bzzzz! Easily ignored!        I was using this as an Amp + DAC.
  
 The iBasso D12 headphone jack via USB _*while it's Charging*_.........another quiet amp + DAC
  
 Matrix M Stage headphone amp, driven from iBasso DAC line out jack, a very faint bzzzz, independent of volume.  Hiss is inaudible at a reasonable volume level.
  
 One more:
 FiiO E09K driven by iBasso DAC line out................very quiet.


----------



## StanD

chris j said:


> Maybe I'm completely insane......
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Haha, this is going to drive you nutz. Now you're going to have to find that hissing snake even if it's the last thing that you do. Or just fawget about it.


----------



## Chris J

stand said:


> Haha, this is going to drive you nutz. Now you're going to have to find that hissing snake even if it's the last thing that you do. Or just fawget about it.


 
  
 No, I'm done!


----------



## StanD

stand said:


> Haha, this is going to drive you nutz. Now you're going to have to find that hissing snake even if it's the last thing that you do. Or just fawget about it.


 
  
  


chris j said:


> No, I'm done!


 
 Good decision. You may now return to enjoying your regularly scheduled music.


----------



## Chris J

stand said:


> Good decision. You may now return to enjoying your regularly scheduled music.




LOL!
At least I didn't waste much time listening to ssssssssssssss.
I must admit I spent more time just listening to my regularly scheduled music than I did listening to, um, essentially Nothing!


----------



## MiRaCL

Weird. I've used the e12 with the SE535 some more. The hiss is always there and i have the amp set to 0 db gain. The hiss is most noticable when the volume pot is at zero. The hiss get's fainter the more the volume pot is turned. I also have som crackling sound when turning the pot.
  
 The E12 is nice with the SE535 because of the bass boost feature


----------



## StanD

miracl said:


> Weird. I've used the e12 with the SE535 some more. The hiss is always there and i have the amp set to 0 db gain. The hiss is most noticable when the volume pot is at zero. The hiss get's fainter the more the volume pot is turned. I also have som crackling sound when turning the pot.
> 
> The E12 is nice with the SE535 because of the bass boost feature


 
 That doesn't sounds right. I assume by saying 0dB you mean low gain. Let's see what other SE535 owners have to say. I believe the hiss is usually constant irregardless of volume position. Do you have a source connected to the input when testing this?


----------



## MiRaCL

The hiss is there with or without a source connected. I mean low gain.
 Maybe i'll take it back to the shop and try another E12 and see if it's my unit that has the problem.


----------



## Chris J

stand said:


> That doesn't sounds right. I assume by saying 0dB you mean low gain. Let's see what other SE535 owners have to say. I believe the hiss is usually constant irregardless of volume position. Do you have a source connected to the input when testing this?




If the hiss is constant irregardless of volume, then it is probably a noisy E12.

If it was a noisy source, then the hiss would drop as the volume control was decreased.

Don't ask me, Stan.
I think we've agreed that I'm OCD!


----------



## StanD

chris j said:


> If the hiss is constant irregardless of volume, then it is probably a noisy E12.
> 
> If it was a noisy source, then the hiss would drop as the volume control was decreased.
> 
> ...


 
 If you don't have anything plugged in and the pot is at the input the noise should be constant. If there's a noisy source then the what you say about lowering the volume is true. I inferred from what poster said that the noise decreased when the pot was turned up, which doesn't make sense,unless there's something wrong with his E12. Perhaps he didn't say which way he turned it.
 My E12 is dead quiet, perhaps I don't have anything as sensitive as the SE535. I'm too lazy to look it up now, just shoveled last night's slush,
 OCD, my wife can get OCD bigtime.


----------



## Chris J

stand said:


> If you don't have anything plugged in and the pot is at the input the noise should be constant. If there's a noisy source then the what you say about lowering the volume is true. I inferred from what poster said that the noise decreased when the pot was turned up, which doesn't make sense,unless there's something wrong with his E12. Perhaps he didn't say which way he turned it.
> My E12 is dead quiet, perhaps I don't have anything as sensitive as the SE535. I'm too lazy to look it up now, just shoveled last night's slush,
> OCD, my wife can get OCD bigtime. :eek:




Where you at?

I'm just outside Toronto, it's been an unusually harsh winter.
Usually we have freeze, thaw, freeze, thaw, freeze, thaw, etc.
But it's been below freezing for weeks on end.


----------



## MiRaCL

The hiss is constant with or without a source connected. The hiss is louder at low volume for some reason. The decreases some when turning the volume up. 
 The problem isn't that noticable when playing music, but it's pretty noticable when a song breaks down to one intstrument.
  
 I'll probably take it back to the dealer to get them to check it.


----------



## Chris J

miracl said:


> The hiss is constant with or without a source connected. The hiss is louder at low volume for some reason. The decreases some when turning the volume up.
> The problem isn't that noticable when playing music, but it's pretty noticable when a song breaks down to one intstrument.
> 
> I'll probably take it back to the dealer to get them to check it.




Speaking as an Electrical Engineer who used to design Analog Signal processing gear.......that is bizarre.
Depending on where the volume control is in the E12 circuit, it should either drop as volume is decreased or stay constant.:confused_face_2:


----------



## MiRaCL

I just tried another pair of IEM's and it's the same thing just a little lower.
  
 When i turn it on with the volume at minimum it's most noticable. I we say minimum is 7 o'clock, the change in hiss occurs at 11 o'clock.


----------



## Chris J

miracl said:


> I just tried another pair of IEM's and it's the same thing just a little lower.
> 
> When i turn it on with the volume at minimum it's most noticable. I we say minimum is 7 o'clock, the change in hiss occurs at 11 o'clock.




Sumthin' screwed up.
Maybe a bum volume control in the E12.


----------



## StanD

chris j said:


> Speaking as an Electrical Engineer who used to design Analog Signal processing gear.......that is bizarre.
> Depending on where the volume control is in the E12 circuit, it should either drop as volume is decreased or stay constant.


 
 Unless the volume control has a reverse taper and it's in the feedback loop but due to a fault it's ground leg is floating, but then again the volume control would not function properly either.
 I think it's time for warranty service.


----------



## Chris J

stand said:


> Unless the volume control has a reverse taper and it's in the feedback loop but due to a fault it's ground leg is floating, but then again the volume control would not function properly either.
> I think it's time for warranty service.




It is my professional opinion that his sample is fubared.


----------



## StanD

chris j said:


> It is my professional opinion that his sample is fubared.


 
 Wrong end of the Bell Curve. So on Monday I get to find out if my Bifrost works with the USB on my GS3. My Backup plan is to use my Fiio E18 as a USB to Coax SPDIF converter in between.


----------



## KamijoIsMyHero

I just got the E12 and I hear a constant hiss on mine using the Westone UM Pro 30(f.k.a. UM3X) unless I turn the volume up past 9 o'clock. But I would still hear it at a quiet environment and the music gets quiet as some of mine does.  I didn't notice a hiss while I was auditioning it against the C5 in store. The two practically sounded the same at the lowest sound level. 
  
 BTW is it normal for the crossfeed to lower the power output when turned on? I was playing with it and the volume drops when I turn it on. I have it on at the moment as it give me more variability with the volume control. Does this do anything bad to my music?


----------



## Chris J

Yes, I've noticed that cross feed drops the volume quit a bit.
It's really designed to be used when the recording has too much left-right separation, this may sound OK over loudspeakers, but sounds irritating via headphones.

Weird, the hiss makes no sense.
I wonder if FiiO has a bad batch?
Are you running off the charger?

Edit:
The E12 always sounds a bit noisy off the charger.
Charge the battery, then disconnect the charger.
Then use the E12.

DO YOU HAVE THE GAIN SET TO 0?

Gain must be set to "0" with IEMs.


----------



## KamijoIsMyHero

chris j said:


> Yes, I've noticed that cross feed drops the volume quit a bit.
> It's really designed to be used when the recording has too much left-right separation, this may sound OK over loudspeakers, but sounds irritating via headphones.
> 
> Weird, the hiss makes no sense.
> ...


 
 I will  try to fully charge it then try again. I tested with the gain set to 0, the other one does about 90+ dB SPL at the lowest level on the volume knob.


----------



## MiRaCL

Took my unit back to the dealer today. Testet it against a demo unit in the shop. Same hiss with my 535's. Tried different Shurea IEM's in the shop witch gave the same result on both amps. The dealer also thinks something was off, but would't change out my unit. Instead the sent an e-mail to Fiio. So i'll just have to wait.


----------



## Solrighal

Hello all.

I use a Galaxy Note 3 playing FLAC files through my V-Moda M-100's. I like the sound but I'm now wondering what an E12 would add to the party. I listen to a wide range of music, from Al Stewart to Rammstein. I think the form factor would fit pretty well with the Note 3 in its Otterbox Commuter case.

What do you folks think? Would the sound be improved or should I be looking to spend my money elsewhere?


----------



## Change is Good

An portable amp, alone, isn't really going to scale up the M100... since you are just double amping the main source.

You may want to look into a portable DAC/amp like the E18, instead... so your note 3 can feed it a digital signal, and let the E18 do all the magic.


----------



## Solrighal

That was one possibility I had considered. Would it be fair to assume that the DAC in the E18 will be superior to the one built-in to the Note 3?


----------



## cachitongo

I hope I don't experience the hissing prob


----------



## KamijoIsMyHero

After about  a week of using the E12 with my UM PRO 30, the hiss is still there although my test environment is a very quite one (I can hear movement of people across 2 rooms). If I were to use it outside or on an otherwise noisy/chattery environment, the hiss wont be apparent at all. Even a library with minimal noise is enough to drown out the hiss. Further, it isn't at all audible using headphones even on high gain.
  
 I am happy to find that it sounds just as good as my desktop amp driving my HE-500. This will be great as I can finally bring my HE-500 anywhere I want.


----------



## MiRaCL

I got a e-mail for the store. They got a confirmation from the norwegian dealer that there should be no hiss whatsoever on the E12.
 So now i'm just waiting for å solution.
  
 I think i'll swap it in for a E18.


----------



## pietcux

solrighal said:


> Hello all.
> 
> I use a Galaxy Note 3 playing FLAC files through my V-Moda M-100's. I like the sound but I'm now wondering what an E12 would add to the party. I listen to a wide range of music, from Al Stewart to Rammstein. I think the form factor would fit pretty well with the Note 3 in its Otterbox Commuter case.
> 
> What do you folks think? Would the sound be improved or should I be looking to spend my money elsewhere?




Hi I have the Note 1 in the Otterbox case. It is much larger than my E12. I do not use the Note as a dap. So I cannot comment on the sound though.


----------



## MiRaCL

Just got word back from the Norwegian importer today. They tested another E12 with the se535 and the hiss was even worse than the unit i got / the demo unit in the shop. They testet it with another pair of SE535 and SE425 with the same result. The importer conclued that it was the shure iem's that was the problem and wouldt replace my unit. The importer used some other iem brand where the hiss was gone.
  
 Anyone else here using the e12 with shure and don't experince the problem?


----------



## trubul

stand said:


> If you can get the E12, do it. You can't use the E11 while the battery is charging, however, the E12 can charge and operate at the same time. Although you can change the battery for the E11, you would have to get a spare and external charger. Also the E12 is built much better, is more powerful and has a better sounding bass boost.


 
  Can anyone confirmed that for me? I also got an opposite opinion:


> the e12 have to charge in order to use it it does not work when it is plugged in charging.


 
  
 E12's owners, I'm waiting for your answers 
  
 Greets.


----------



## StanD

trubul said:


> Can anyone confirmed that for me? I also got an opposite opinion:
> 
> E12's owners, I'm waiting for your answers
> 
> Greets.


 
 If you didn't believe me, you could have found the below within a few seconds using the search capability of this site. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




http://www.head-fi.org/t/699099/portable-amp-charge-while-listening#post_10149522
http://www.head-fi.org/products/fiio-e12-mont-blanc/reviews/8449


----------



## trubul

It's not that I don't believe but I just found 2 absolutely different opinions; and I did research there but couldn't find anything proper (well, maybe I haven't searched carefully) 
  
 OK, so answer is yes but also:


> though your typical mains power will introduce a little background noise


 
  
 Is it noticeable/disturbing?
  
 Greets.


----------



## StanD

trubul said:


> It's not that I don't believe but I just found 2 absolutely different opinions; and I did research there but couldn't find anything proper (well, maybe I haven't searched carefully)
> 
> OK, so answer is yes but also:
> 
> ...


 
 Although I primarily use the E12 while mobile, I have listened while charging and this hasn't surfaced for me, perhaps I don't have much noise on my power lines.


----------



## trubul

Mhm, so the only way to check it is just borrow this amp from store and connect to my PC.
 Also, I suppose that PSU might be important, if someone has good PSU, there shouldn't be any problems I guess.


----------



## StanD

trubul said:


> Mhm, so the only way to check it is just borrow this amp from store and connect to my PC.
> Also, I suppose that PSU might be important, if someone has good PSU, there shouldn't be any problems I guess.


 
 You have to be careful of where you plug in the USB PSU for the E12 vs. where the PC is plugged in. I found that if I plug them into different receptacles/power line feeds I get noise. I had this happen with my desktop amp as well.


----------



## pietcux

I charge it via USB from my computer. That does not create any noise. If you use a power supply it depends on the quality of that one. A swiching one might be disturbing, a regulated should be dead silent.


----------



## trubul

stand said:


> You have to be careful of where you plug in the USB PSU for the E12 vs. where the PC is plugged in. I found that if I plug them into different receptacles/power line feeds I get noise. I had this happen with my desktop amp as well.


 
  
 Well, now I have a stationary amp (big box, 9kg weight), connected to power socket normally and with PC by RCA->jack and I don't have any noises (but well, I had while headphones were connected - the problem was with wrong connected ground inside).
  


pietcux said:


> I charge it via USB from my computer. That does not create any noise. If you use a power supply it depends on the quality of that one. A swiching one might be disturbing, a regulated should be dead silent.


 
  
 What do you mean by switching/regulated PSU? I have XFX Core 550W so it's high-end PSU, I hope.
  
 Greets.


----------



## StanD

trubul said:


> Well, now I have a stationary amp (big box, 9kg weight), connected to power socket normally and with PC by RCA->jack and I don't have any noises (but well, I had while headphones were connected - the problem was with wrong connected ground inside).
> 
> 
> What do you mean by switching/regulated PSU? I have XFX Core 550W so it's high-end PSU, I hope.
> ...


 
 A switching supply is a design where fast switching semiconductors integrate pulses of high poer on capitors/networks to efficiently get you regultated power. All of this switching genreates gobs of noise, which is fine for digital circuits. A linear supply uses power transistors to pass current to the load and maintain a regulated voltage. No switching, no noise, however, heat is a byproduct because of the current on load and the voltage accross the power transistors.
 A 550W linear power supply would be, huge, heavy, expensive and hotter than hell.


----------



## trubul

Hmm so that means that every single PSU in PCs are possible to be disturbing in terms of sound?


----------



## StanD

trubul said:


> Hmm so that means that every single PSU in PCs are possible to be disturbing in terms of sound?


 
 Possible yes, but we don't hear of too many problems. Try to plug all of the gadgets in the audio chain into the same powerstrip. After that, best of luck to all of us. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 Even a laptop on batteries will have DC to DC converters that usually entail switching. Besides all of your computer is a noise generator. Try listening to an AM radio nearby to your desktop PC.


----------



## pietcux

trubul said:


> Hmm so that means that every single PSU in PCs are possible to be disturbing in terms of sound?


 

 I have an external soundcard (ASUS Xonar U7) using USB connection to my PC. The device has a dac and a headphone amp. It gets no noise from the PC. I think if you are going to charge the E12 from the PC you will not hear any noise. But if you use a wall plug power supply then you might have some noise.


----------



## StanD

pietcux said:


> I have an external soundcard (ASUS Xonar U7) using USB connection to my PC. The device has a dac and a headphone amp. It gets no noise from the PC. I think if you are going to charge the E12 from the PC you will not hear any noise. But if you use a wall plug power supply then you might have some noise.


 
 It is possible to get noise from the USB power, I have a laptop that is very generous in that regard. This might be up to the luck of the draw, whichever PC/laptops you own.


----------



## talisman42

Does anyone know the output power into 600 ohms? If it's not documented anywhere, is this something that can be measured? I'm curious because they seem to work well with high impedance headphones, but currently researching some desktop amps.


----------



## KamijoIsMyHero

it is about 47 mw at 600 ohms


----------



## StanD

talisman42 said:


> Does anyone know the output power into 600 ohms? If it's not documented anywhere, is this something that can be measured? I'm curious because they seem to work well with high impedance headphones, but currently researching some desktop amps.


 
 At the very most it would be a result of the maximum spec'd Peak to Peak output voltage of 15.5 along with the 600 Ohms impedance.
 Thus ((15.5Vp-p / 2) * 0.707)2 / 600 which works out to be *50mW*
 I wouldn't be surprised if it was lower.
  
 Now the DIY version has more detailed specs, with the same power supply voltages and op amps they spec a higher Vp-p at 300 Ohms. If I use this as a guide I get the following:
 ((19Vp-p / 2) * 0.707)2 /600 which works out to *75 mW*.
  
 I hope this helps.


----------



## talisman42

many thanks to both of you


----------



## talisman42

so what's on the wish list for the next big thing by Fiio? I like their route of using lots of compact high quality build materials, rechargeable, power packed and tons of versatility Maybe the next version can be a bit more bulky to accommodate features like high capacity battery so it's still portable while delivering Hi output like you've never seen it before. We're talking 1W  for  32 ohms all the way over to 180mW @600 ohms. Maybe some DIY options? Although I'm newb in that department, All this in a power packed sem-portable amp. Would be cool if ad two headphone jacks. I think Fiio can pull this on off. Of all the offerings out there, I think Fiio can pull it off and hit it out of the park! Tell me you dreams!!!


----------



## KamijoIsMyHero

99.999% of headphones don't need that much power, especially for a portable headphone. Maybe they can start their all-in-one flagship desktop solution but it seems like they are focusing on the PMPs atm that also does a lot of things for the asking prices.


----------



## Change is Good

Showing the E12 some love...


----------



## deadie

I'm digging this little cheap amp, very surprised how well it drives the LCD-2.  For those who have this combo, check out track 4 "Spring Can Really Hang You Up The Most" on Bakoon's recordings demo page.
  
 Midway through, the lounge piano gives it up to a standing string bass, and it sounds great.  Strong, tight, musical, and no need to augment with bass boost.
  
 http://www.bakoonproducts.com/downloads/recordings/


----------



## oscarc

I just got the E12 to pair with my V-Moda M80s and am loving it so far. I do have a question though. Is the source volume (iPhone 5) supposed to be at max and then increase the volume of the E12 or does it not matter?


----------



## Chris J

oscarc said:


> I just got the E12 to pair with my V-Moda M80s and am loving it so far. I do have a question though. Is the source volume (iPhone 5) supposed to be at max and then increase the volume of the E12 or does it not matter?




I would set the iPhone to maximum.
If you are using a DOC cable, then the volume control in the iPhone may be bypassed.


----------



## SaddleSC

oscarc said:


> I just got the E12 to pair with my V-Moda M80s and am loving it so far. I do have a question though. Is the source volume (iPhone 5) supposed to be at max and then increase the volume of the E12 or does it not matter?


 
 I have been using the E12 for a couple weeks and I have been setting the volume of the iPhone to max. It works great!


----------



## talisman42

really confused with people's experiences with the E12's with some of the high impedance headphones like the HD800 and T1s maybe some can unravel the mystery for me... then  empty my wallet on more upgrades. Anyway, I'm finding it amazing that hooked up to my computer 80% and used a config to lower preamp 9db.. As for the DAC  --> E17 Dac+ Line out --> Fiio E12 +16 db gain really rocks! I mean I can barely get the volume pot past 12. first off, is my set up wrong in any way?  It's so odd to read about other reviews that describe difficultly getting ample volume with some mid-high end amps - and those amps have their own discrete power. Meanwhile, I feel like I'm getting plenty juice from my usb powered E12 instead of using something that draws like 30-40W energy to heat the house and electricity bill. something feels off... and I think great stuff can come in small packages and be more efficient.. like my usb amps 
  
 What gives? Is it possible that the amps already build in some boost or add reverb or whatever to make them sound more spacious and impact than they really are. I was noticed a difference going from PC -> DAC -> Amp (USB), but curious if I'd be disappointed in something that claims to do "X" "Y" "Z" and observing no insignificant difference than a Fiio and higher end asgard. I'm posting here so it doesn't offend the Asgard 2 owners in their threads. any suggestions?


----------



## Evshrug

Talisman,
I'm not sure man, I don't have an HD800 but I've owned and borrowed a bunch of headphones, and the E12 has been fine with all. There was only one time I had to nearly max out... my soundcard was acting very weird/wrong, and it sucked out all the volume.


----------



## utmelidze

Can anybody tell me why it came in red package from singapore?
I already had one from german fiio shop and that one had normal white package
According to tech spec they are same
Still am i wondering about that...


----------



## utmelidze

And new bag feels different
Its somehow gummy
If feels more tight but flexible
The old one was more fancy imo
This one is comfy


----------



## utmelidze




----------



## StanD

talisman42 said:


> really confused with people's experiences with the E12's with some of the high impedance headphones like the HD800 and T1s maybe some can unravel the mystery for me... then  empty my wallet on more upgrades. Anyway, I'm finding it amazing that hooked up to my computer 80% and used a config to lower preamp 9db.. As for the DAC  --> E17 Dac+ Line out --> Fiio E12 +16 db gain really rocks! I mean I can barely get the volume pot past 12. first off, is my set up wrong in any way?  It's so odd to read about other reviews that describe difficultly getting ample volume with some mid-high end amps - and those amps have their own discrete power. Meanwhile, I feel like I'm getting plenty juice from my usb powered E12 instead of using something that draws like 30-40W energy to heat the house and electricity bill. something feels off... and I think great stuff can come in small packages and be more efficient.. like my usb amps
> 
> What gives? Is it possible that the amps already build in some boost or add reverb or whatever to make them sound more spacious and impact than they really are. I was noticed a difference going from PC -> DAC -> Amp (USB), but curious if I'd be disappointed in something that claims to do "X" "Y" "Z" and observing no insignificant difference than a Fiio and higher end asgard. I'm posting here so it doesn't offend the Asgard 2 owners in their threads. any suggestions?


 
 I have both an E12 as well as Asgard 2 and others, no offense taken. The Asgard 2 can drive my HE-500's better/louder but the E12 is no slouch. Soundstage is more of a function of channel separation or by psychoacoustical affect of boosted treble. Amps do not add reverb, that would be a special effects thing that no one should be interested in.
 What cans do you use with the E12? HD800's?


----------



## utmelidze

well done humanity
  
 comparing asgard 2 and e12
  
 let me leave this planet
  
  
 "Maximum Power, 32 ohms: 1.0W RMS per channel
 Maximum Power, 50 ohms: 1.0W RMS per channel
 Maximum Power, 300 ohms: 380mW RMS per channel
 Maximum Power, 600 ohms: 190mW RMS per channel"


----------



## oscarc

I have had this little amp for a few weeks now and am loving it. It makes the music more alive (if that makes sense). I do have occassional hissing or popping noises while a song is playing. Could it be an issue with the interconnects (standard FiiO cable) or the source (iPhone 5)? I tend to notice it more when riding the Metro, so could it be possibly interference from other electronic devices nearby? Is there a way to minimize that?


----------



## StanD

utmelidze said:


> well done humanity
> 
> comparing asgard 2 and e12
> 
> ...


 
 The specs you gave are for the Asgard 2.
  
 The E12 doesn't have a power spec'd at 300 Ohms, but if you look at the E12 DIY it can find something for 300 Ohms. The DIY spec's less power at 32 Ohms than the normal E12.
 880 mW at 32 Ohms.
 150 mW at 300 Ohms (DIY).
  
 Not too shaby for a little portable.


----------



## utmelidze

is it questionable that asgard 2 hast more power then E12?
 why do we need to discuss that?
 its too obvious that asgard 2 has more juice


----------



## Change is Good

utmelidze said:


> is it questionable that asgard 2 hast more power then E12?
> why do we need to discuss that?
> its too obvious that asgard 2 has more juice




Don't be surprised. People ask to compare apples to oranges in these threads...


----------



## Change is Good

utmelidze said:


> Can anybody tell me why it came in red package from singapore?
> I already had one from german fiio shop and that one had normal white package
> According to tech spec they are same
> Still am i wondering about that...




I doubt its fake... but if you're concerned just scratch of the authorization number on the box and check it on FiiO's website.


----------



## utmelidze

i checked and its genuine product


----------



## Change is Good

Congrats on your purchase. You have a nice, powerful, portable little amp, there...

Great bang for buck if you ask me...


----------



## utmelidze

Oh thans
I knew what i was buying
E12 ist just very good portable amp


----------



## Chris J

utmelidze said:


> well done humanity
> 
> comparing asgard 2 and e12
> 
> ...




Get to the point.

Have you come to destroy us?
Yes or no?
How may we please the alien overlords?
We wish only to please you.


----------



## StanD

chris j said:


> Get to the point.
> 
> Have you come to destroy us?
> Yes or no?
> ...


 
 I think he's gone power mad and wants to take over the planet. He'll never take my headphones, he'll have to pry them from my cold fingers.


----------



## Change is Good

What? Someone wants to conquer our planet and take our headphones?!?

Noooooooooooooooooooo!!!


----------



## Chris J

stand said:


> I think he's gone power mad and wants to take over the planet. He'll never take my headphones, he'll have to pry them from my cold fingers.







change is good said:


> What? Someone wants to conquer our planet and take our headphones?!?
> 
> Noooooooooooooooooooo!!!




That's nice.

What's on TV tonight?


----------



## Change is Good

chris j said:


> That's nice.
> 
> What's on TV tonight?




March Madness!!!


----------



## StanD

chris j said:


> That's nice.
> 
> What's on TV tonight?


 
 The usual alien conspiracy crap.


----------



## utmelidze

dont be so hard on me
  
  
 hey...what about my red package???anybody from fiio here?


----------



## pietcux

utmelidze said:


> dont be so hard on me
> 
> 
> hey...what about my red package???anybody from fiio here?



Hey what does the red color? 
It looks red!


----------



## ClieOS

Red+Black package is just the new packaging. My E12DIY and X5 both come in Red+Black box, and slowly all of FiiO line-up should adapt the new color packaging as well.


----------



## StanD

pietcux said:


> Hey what does the red color?
> It looks red!


 
 Is that why they call it red?


----------



## Chris J

stand said:


> Is that why they call it red?




What's black and white and red all over?


----------



## utmelidze

beaten dirty teeth


----------



## Chris J

utmelidze said:


> beaten dirty teeth




No,
A newspaper.


----------



## StanD

chris j said:


> What's black and white and red all over?


 
 Black and _Blue_ and Red all over is the guy whose wife found out how much he's spent on headphones, Amps and DACs.


----------



## badbat

Hi first post here! I think my Fiio e12 volume is not working the amp is not very loud at max volume 0 gain, about as loud as an ipod or zune. From what I've been reading It should be plenty loud at 11o'clock - 12o'clock. I'm using martin logan m90 (26 Ohms)


----------



## Change is Good

Make sure the source's volume is set to max...


----------



## badbat

Thanks for the fast reply. I should of stated that the source volume is at max. Everything sounds great. I thought it was going to be louder. I think the volume nob might not be working right


----------



## badbat

I guess I just need To know if playing this amp at max volume is normal or not. If it is not working properly I'll return it


----------



## KamijoIsMyHero

For your head phone, it's not


----------



## Hijodelbrx

Have you checked the gain switch?


----------



## Change is Good

hijodelbrx said:


> Have you checked the gain switch?


 
  
 Helpful info, please, guys! Thoroughly read his posts before jumping the gun. He should not have to put it on high gain for the Mikros M90s!
  
  


badbat said:


> I guess I just need To know if playing this amp at max volume is normal or not. If it is not working properly I'll return it


 
  
 Get a replacement, my friend. Something isn't right if you say your source is at max volume, and the E12 is at max volume with the Mikros....


----------



## Evshrug

hijodelbrx said:


> Have you checked the gain switch?



In his post he said it was set for 0 gain (line level). It's POSSIBLE the switch could be stuck inbetween or something, but FWIR when that happens you get BOTH line level and high gain circuits going, so it still shouldn't be too quiet.

I don't know what sensitivity the Martin Logan M90 rates, in fact I don't know much about the ML M90s at all (ML makes headphones too?), but my E12 can drive everything from my EarPods to my K712 Pros to deafening levels (literally). That said, my 5th gen iPod can drive my 50 Ohm Koss KSC75s louder than I'm comfortable listening to.


----------



## Shawn71

badbat said:


> Thanks for the fast reply. I should of stated that the source volume is at max. Everything sounds great. I thought it was going to be louder. I think the volume nob might not be working right




Everything means other phones from your collection? Did you/do yiu hear any static while turning the pot/knob? Do you hear the difference when you use gain,BB CF switches though low volume? Did you notice this issue all of a sudden while active listening or the other way? Hope you didnt drop it facing volume knob hittin the floor?
finally, hows the charging and discharging status of the Amp,normal?


----------



## Shawn71

To add,check the volume limit under Settings as well. Just............somebody would've tweaked accidentally,w/o your knowledge.


----------



## badbat

Every thing seems to be in fine order other then the volume. It does get louder with the gain switch on by maybe 15% or so. cross feed works(I'll never use this feature) and the bass switch adds a little more punch. I don't hear static at all. A hiss with high gain. the amp was like this out of the box. I've only charged it once and I checked the authenticity code


----------



## utmelidze

they have improved usb charging mode a lot since last year on E12
 E12 from 2012 Q4 had audible hiss with usb charging and hearing
 it had weaker battery
  
 new E12 lasts extremely long...in my case even 20 Hours and usb charging is not audible anymore


----------



## Hollus

Hello, had a couple questions.
  
 Is the charging LED supposed to turn off automatically once it's done?  I was expecting it to do so, but I've had mine plugged in for ~24 hours (turned off) and am still getting a solid LED.
  
 Secondly, would using http://tinyurl.com/lmvjc7c (usb wall plug) pull a 2A/h fast charge off of an outlet?


----------



## BenF

hollus said:


> Hello, had a couple questions.
> 
> Is the charging LED supposed to turn off automatically once it's done?  I was expecting it to do so, but I've had mine plugged in for ~24 hours (turned off) and am still getting a solid LED.
> 
> Secondly, would using http://tinyurl.com/lmvjc7c (usb wall plug) pull a 2A/h fast charge off of an outlet?


 

 I think the LED blinks during the charge, stays on once it's finished.
 Wall charger will speed things up.


----------



## benbenkr

utmelidze said:


> they have improved usb charging mode a lot since last year on E12
> E12 from 2012 Q4 had audible hiss with usb charging and hearing
> it had weaker battery
> 
> new E12 lasts extremely long...in my case even 20 Hours and usb charging is not audible anymore


 
  
 By "new" you mean the late 2013 repackaged E12 right (the one with the new red/black box)?


----------



## utmelidze

yes. i mean red repacked E12
 i can compare and confirm:
  
 Battery is lot better
 usb charging is completely silent now
  
 bad news: bag is lot cheaper comparing to old one. it doesnt really looks well compared to E12 quality


----------



## PocketSmiley

The solution to USB charging noise:
  

  
Use a USB cable with a ferrite choke. (Doesn't work in my E12 with my PC; can't test with my laptop which is dead right now.) I charge my E12 with a separate USB wall charger and it's completely silent.
  
 I hear noise in my Fiio E5 when it's both sourced and charging from the same laptop/PC. Using a ferrite choked charging cable effectively mutes MOST noise; there's still noise but it's tolerable and you can't hear them with music playing. Charging from the laptop but listening to my phone source doesn't have noise in the E5.
  
 I just got a Fiio E12. I love it, especially its high input voltage handling. The E5 clips beyond 1.2Vrms, when my soundcard outputs 2Vrms at max volume. The E12 handles my soundcard output easily.
  
 I use a 2A500mA USB charger wall adapter to charge the Fiio E12, but the E12 gets too hot when charging. I want to keep the E12 powered as I use it as a desktop amp. I haven't tried charging it from the PC, but the USB ports output the same 500mA as my wall charger. Any experience with this? Is there a way to keep the E12 cool while powered? Or is the E12 going to be okay at such high temperatures?


----------



## benbenkr

By hot, how hot is it? Burning hot as in too hot to touch? Warm?
 The case is built from aluminium, it's good heat dissapation.


----------



## PocketSmiley

benbenkr said:


> By hot, how hot is it? Burning hot as in too hot to touch? Warm?
> The case is built from aluminium, it's good heat dissapation.


 
  
 It's normal laptop battery hot. It's only alarming because when not charging, the device stays cool. But when I left it plugged in for 24 hours (so supposedly fully charged) and felt that it was still hot, I was worried about leaving it that way. I know electronic components are built to withstand heat. But not always.


----------



## Hawaiibadboy

badbat said:


> Thanks for the fast reply. I should of stated that the source volume is at max. Everything sounds great. I thought it was going to be louder. I think the volume nob might not be working right


 





  
 How about you turn the source (for an example: Cowon at 32volume)<<<<<and never ever touch it again (Turning a source volume to max seems odd since you can turn it to 3/4 and lean on the amp...the thing you bought to amp the signal....no?)
  
 Now switch your gain to *on* and use the amp as your default volume knob forever.


----------



## benbenkr

pocketsmiley said:


> It's normal laptop battery hot. It's only alarming because when not charging, the device stays cool. But when I left it plugged in for 24 hours (so supposedly fully charged) and felt that it was still hot, I was worried about leaving it that way. I know electronic components are built to withstand heat. But not always.


 
  
 FiiO states that their portable amps run on USB power and almost entirely cuts off its battery when plugged in. So yeah, it makes sense that it remains hot. Same thing for every other amp that uses USB or even an external power supply.
  
 If your E12 is turned off and it isn't charging but plugged in, if it's still hot then there's a cause for concern. Is this a problem you are facing?


----------



## PocketSmiley

benbenkr said:


> FiiO states that their portable amps run on USB power and almost entirely cuts off its battery when plugged in. So yeah, it makes sense that it remains hot. Same thing for every other amp that uses USB or even an external power supply.
> 
> If your E12 is turned off and it isn't charging but plugged in, if it's still hot then there's a cause for concern. Is this a problem you are facing?


 
  
 Ah, thank you! I don't remember it being fully charged, and if it ever was, I don't remember if it's turned off. All I know is that for the entire day today, I kept it plugged in and turned on, but the charging light never stopped blinking. Is it supposed to stop charging even while it's turned on?
  
 I'm charging it right now turned off. I'll get back when it's fully charged. If it doesn't get fully charged maybe I got a defective unit.


----------



## benbenkr

pocketsmiley said:


> Ah, thank you! I don't remember it being fully charged, and if it ever was, I don't remember if it's turned off. All I know is that for the entire day today, I kept it plugged in and turned on, but the charging light never stopped blinking. Is it supposed to stop charging even while it's turned on?
> 
> I'm charging it right now turned off. I'll get back when it's fully charged. If it doesn't get fully charged maybe I got a defective unit.


 
  
 The E12 charges when it is turned on too, but its rate of charging is slower than when it is turned off. This is because like I said earlier, the amp uses the power from the USB instead of the battery. The battery would continue to charge, but at a slower rate. Another reason why people hear hiss on the earlier models.
  
 It should charge fully after 4-5 hours. Mine finishes charging at around 4 hours most of the time.


----------



## PocketSmiley

benbenkr said:


> FiiO states that their portable amps run on USB power and almost entirely cuts off its battery when plugged in. So yeah, it makes sense that it remains hot. Same thing for every other amp that uses USB or even an external power supply.
> 
> If your E12 is turned off and it isn't charging but plugged in, if it's still hot then there's a cause for concern. Is this a problem you are facing?


 
  
  
 I solved the heating problem! My E12 also charges fully, and the charge light shows it! My E12 is perfect!
  
 I used a 2.4A USB wall charger to charge it to full, with the charge light blinking rapidly. At first I was scared that my E12 charge light is defective and that it can't detect if the device is fully charged. But then it finished charging. Now I'm using it plugged in, but it still shows it's fully charged so it's all perfect!
  
*Weird things:*
  
 When I was charging using the 2.4A charger with the E12 turned off, the E12 was cool all throughout! And when I turned it on again, still plugged to the charger, the charging light stays full, and after using it for an hour it is still cool!
  
 Previously, I was using a 500mA USB wall charger. With the E12 battery drained, I tried to use it while charging. The charge light kept blinking for 24 hours with the E12 turned on. Most importantly, the E12 was running hot.
  
 If you want to use your E12 while charging, it is best to charge it fully first so it doesn't get hot.
  
 EDIT: Just after typing this, the charge light started to blink again. It's blinking slowly, so it means it's charging slowly even though it's plugged to a 2.4A charger (5V, 12 watts). I'm pretty sure the E12 doesn't eat 12 watts of power when driving 16-ohm headphones. I'll check again if it gets hot again. So far it's still cool.


----------



## desertpeaks

Mine was hot only the first charge using my phones 1.2A charger. Since then it's cool.


----------



## PocketSmiley

desertpeaks said:


> Mine was hot only the first charge using my phones 1.2A charger. Since then it's cool.


 
  
 Not really a problem anymore (my E12 is perfect really), only a matter of curiosity:
  
 Do you use your E12 as a desktop amp as well, like do you leave it plugged in and turned on for days?
  
 I used a 2.4A USB wall charger, and it didn't get hot when charging while turned off. It's weird. But maybe because it was already partially charged? I'll try again when it's drained.
  
 At full charge, when turned off, the E12 shows a stable charge light. When turned on, the charge light is stable for an hour or so, then it starts to blink slowly. Then it doesn't stop blinking and gets a bit warm after 10 or so hours, definitely not as hot as before when used right after the battery was almost drained. It's really mildly warm, like benchwarmed-bench warm, my Galaxy Nexus gets scorching hot when using GPS in comparison. I'm just trying to determine why when using it after a full charge, it goes on to a slow charge while plugged in. I thought the battery isn't used when running on power?
  
 I'll test again to make sure if the E12 gets a bit warm when running on battery. That means it's normal operation and not related to charging.


----------



## benbenkr

I do use my E12 as a desktop amp and as a console amp.
  
 Difference is, I use it without a USB plugged in most of the time. Reason being I do have the older model where charging and using at the same time contributes to hiss, which I do not like. The battery lasts like 10 hours or so anyways, so there's no reason to for me at least to keep it plugged in all the time.
  
 It does get warm, which is entirely normal. Not an issue, trust me. I've handled other portable amps which are twice hotter than the E12, yet they work fine.


----------



## desertpeaks

No, I don't use my E12 in a desktop situation as I charge the battery and fully cycle. Though I do listen while plugged into power with no problems. I will try this weekend to have some extensive time to see if mine does like yours and begin to drain then charge while powered on. I too thought the USB circuit kept charge and operational power separate..hmm...


----------



## reiserFS

Just got the E12 and there's quite some audible hissing going on with my SD-1 even when not charging. What the heck?


----------



## Hawaiibadboy

Return it. That should not be happening.
 It is a powerful well built unit that doesn't come with hissing as a
 "gee can't help that but everything else is fine".
 Like a sz earpad or a q40 cord.
 That's a defective unit.
 Mail them and return it.
 It shouldn't do it if you bought a new one through an approved vendor.


----------



## utmelidze

Return it
E12 WORKS GREAT GENERALY


----------



## peter123

Since I've got a E12 on the way I thought I'd better subscribe to this thread


----------



## reiserFS

utmelidze said:


> Return it
> E12 WORKS GREAT GENERALY


 
 Strangely the hissing gets quieter after the unit is running for a few minutes. I can then only hear it in a quiet room. Normal unit or is it really defective?


----------



## Change is Good

reiserfs said:


> Just got the E12 and there's quite some audible hissing going on with my SD-1 even when not charging. What the heck?


 
  


reiserfs said:


> Strangely the hissing gets quieter after the unit is running for a few minutes. I can then only hear it in a quiet room. Normal unit or is it really defective?


 
  
 i know this may be a stupid question, but what gain do you have it on?


----------



## Hijodelbrx

My E12 doesn't hiss under ANY conditions. Not when charging and regardless of the gain setting.


----------



## benbenkr

hijodelbrx said:


> My E12 doesn't hiss under ANY conditions. Not when charging and regardless of the gain setting.


 
  
 Sometimes, it's not the source. It's the headphone/IEM that are being driven that are too sensitive.


----------



## BenF

Could be a case of_ Electromagnetic interference_ (EMI) if there are any smartphones around.
 3G data causes more interference than WI-FI, if I remember correctly from my tests with E12.


----------



## DisCHORDDubstep

jamesfiio said:


> First, finally I changed my ID from feiao to JamesFiiO. and I can still keep all my posts in the past years.
> 
> About the bass boost feature in Mont Blanc, we decide to change the design, as you can see , the current frequency response is as below
> 
> ...


-_-... That leaks a lot into the mids... Lol. That keeps boosting until the middle of the midrange... That's a mid/bass boost...


----------



## waynes world

dischorddubstep said:


> -_-... That leaks a lot into the mids... Lol. That keeps boosting until the middle of the midrange... That's a mid/bass boost...


 
  
 You're referring to the red line (production E12), and not the blue line (1st iteration), correct?


----------



## oscarc

benf said:


> Could be a case of_ Electromagnetic interference_ (EMI) if there are any smartphones around.
> 3G data causes more interference than WI-FI, if I remember correctly from my tests with E12.


 
  
 Is it a bad idea to stream music when using the E12? I take public transportation and I notice I sometimes get a lot of hissing and pops when streaming iTunes radio. I was not sure if it was interference from other phones, Wi-Fi or something else causing the issue.


----------



## BenF

oscarc said:


> Is it a bad idea to stream music when using the E12? I take public transportation and I notice I sometimes get a lot of hissing and pops when streaming iTunes radio. I was not sure if it was interference from other phones, Wi-Fi or something else causing the issue.


 

 3G data will definitely create noise.


----------



## reiserFS

change is good said:


> i know this may be a stupid question, but what gain do you have it on?


 
 0


----------



## DisCHORDDubstep

waynes world said:


> You're referring to the red line (production E12), and not the blue line (1st iteration), correct?


yes I am referring to the new one.


----------



## dmxvz

Hey guys, I just got mine today but I think I might have a different product. What was the color of the box in which your E12 came in? I see video reviews in which the box is white and mine is black and red, and the Output Power on the back says 600mW(16Ohms). Any thoughts ?


----------



## dmxvz

utmelidze said:


> Can anybody tell me why it came in red package from singapore?
> I already had one from german fiio shop and that one had normal white package
> According to tech spec they are same
> Still am i wondering about that...


 
 That is the same package I got, my only worry is that in FiiO's page is advertised as having 800mW output and in the box it says 600mW... or am I wrong ?


----------



## Change is Good

Mine came in the white/red/ box (purchased about a year ago)... and here is the spec sheet...


----------



## dmxvz

Oh now I see, FiiO puts in the box the medium output power, not the maximum, not the minimum. Thanks ! I'm pretty new to this hobby as you can see haha.


----------



## ClieOS

dmxvz said:


> That is the same package I got, my only worry is that in FiiO's page is advertised as having 800mW output and in the box it says 600mW... or am I wrong ?


 
  
 Output power depends on the load (the headphone) as well. But both 600mW and 800mW (into, say a 32ohm load) is more than capable of bleeding your eardrum at full force.


----------



## dmxvz

By the way, I see you have the momentum on ear, how are those working for you ? Do you think over ear are better than on ear version ? 
  
 edit: I can't even pass the 50% mark on the volume nob with my iPhone or my macbook at 100%.


----------



## Change is Good

dmxvz said:


> *By the way, I see you have the momentum on ear, how are those working for you ? Do you think over ear are better than on ear version ? *
> 
> edit: I can't even pass the 50% mark on the volume nob with my iPhone or my macbook at 100%.


 
  
 I'm enjoying them very much! Thanks for asking! 
  
 Never tried the original, however... sorry


----------



## Hawaiibadboy

Bought mine in Japan.
 Same spec sheet as the guy 2 posts above me.


----------



## dmxvz

change is good said:


> I'm enjoying them very much! Thanks for asking!
> 
> Never tried the original, however... sorry


 
 I think I'm going to buy the Momentum Over ear for my mobile needs and I think I'm buying the HE-400 for home use. It is really hard to choose as someone who is just entering in all of this and has to see as many reviews as possible and read so many articles, and yet, I know I don't know anything  
 Anyways, thanks for replying. have a nice one


----------



## dmxvz

hawaiibadboy said:


> Bought mine in Japan.
> Same spec sheet as the guy 2 posts above me.


 
 I think is just that the newest pieces are coming in the black/red box, I like that one the best though.


----------



## reiserFS

I still don't know whether I should send my E12 back or not. Can anyone else comment on the hissing issue?


----------



## utmelidze

Its not usual
Maybe you try line in cable to move a lil bit in and out
It could be a bad contact or high resistive cable
Voltage could be developed on bad places and produce hi freq noise


----------



## iceman600

I dont think this is the right thread to ask this but everyone in here has a Fiio E12 so... What pouch or case do you use for traveling in your portable gear? I already bought two cases and both are fail. It wont fit. Kinda hard to look for what case will work. ;(
  
 I bought a CaseLogic and a Pelican both wont fit my rig. (iPod classic - Fiio e12 - ZO2)


----------



## KamijoIsMyHero

I think you just bought the wrong sized pelican. I have seen other sizes that I was able to directly try putting on my iPod Classic and E12 on and they fit fine plus some room for my IEMs.


----------



## peter123

The problem is that he's got three components, every other cases I've seen used with the E12 had just have to fit two components.

If you're gonna stick with three components you're gonna need a hell of a large case


----------



## KamijoIsMyHero

or he can move that small piece to the side and probably fit something like this
  
http://www.rpelectronics.com/pel1050-blk-red-micro-case-with-rubber-liner-7-5-x-5-06-x-3-12-black-red.html
  
 this kind of assumes he unplugs the cables (or even disassemble the whole rig itself) first though.


----------



## PocketSmiley

The following issue isn't exactly about the E12, but may be misattributed to the E12:
  
 A few days ago my computer power supply OCZ600SXS stopped working (connector related), so I immediately bought a new, cheap one (Antec VP450) at the nearest Staples.
  
 Suddenly, I hear audio static/noise from my soundcard that wasn't there before. Videocard activity such as moving the mouse also interfered with the sound, so it was a DPC latency issue. Usually, DPC latency issues are the fault of the motherboard or video and sound drivers, but I was using the exact same system. So it was the new power supply all along, and its irregular voltages.
  
 That wasn't the only problem. Before, I can listen to the E12 while charging from a wall adapter with absolute zero noise at maximum volume. Now, I hear additional noise. Even when I plug the charger to a different outlet across the hall with a 15ft USB cable that I always used, I still hear charging noise. My power supply, above giving irregular voltages, is also improperly grounded.
  
 So if you have audio static/noise issues with your computer or laptop, it may be the case that your PSU sucks.
  
 Using the E12 with a portable player while charging doesn't emit noise at least with my JVC HA-SZ2000. But the SZ2000 cable is shielded, so that's a factor too. Try getting a shielded stereo cable that prevents ground loops.


----------



## reiserFS

utmelidze said:


> Its not usual
> Maybe you try line in cable to move a lil bit in and out
> It could be a bad contact or high resistive cable
> Voltage could be developed on bad places and produce hi freq noise


 
 Keine Verbesserung, das Grundrauschen bleibt und wird stärker bei Gain 16. 
 No improvement, background hissing stays and grows louder with Gain 16. Seriously Fiio, even the X3s headphone output is clean as hell. Also, it doesn't matter if there's a source connected or not, hisses right after I turn it on.


----------



## benbenkr

reiserfs said:


> Keine Verbesserung, das Grundrauschen bleibt und wird stärker bei Gain 16.
> No improvement, background hissing stays and grows louder with Gain 16. Seriously Fiio, even the X3s headphone output is clean as hell. Also, it doesn't matter if there's a source connected or not, *hisses right after I turn it on*.


 
  
 Time to return it and contact FiiO.
 Hoenstly, this is the first time I've heard of a bad defect on the E12.


----------



## reiserFS

benbenkr said:


> Time to return it and contact FiiO.
> Hoenstly, this is the first time I've heard of a bad defect on the E12.


 
 Bought it through Amazon from a german Fiio Shop, doubt it'll matter if I contact Fiio. Also, people are apparently using the StageDiver series just fine with their E12. So back it goes.


----------



## iceman600

Now this is interesting! Fiio created a kit to stack your E12 to X5. I wish there one for iPod classic. Or maybe its time to get a X5 
http://fb.me/2Y8NEhHyb


----------



## utmelidze

es liegt am stromquelle 
  
 wenn du über usb kabel aus laptop laden willst ,dann bekommst auf jeden Fall hintergrundgeräusche
 aber sobald du externe gute adapter nimmst dann ist alles sauber


----------



## pietcux

Es ist ein wenig unsinnig in einem internationalen Forum auf Deutsch zu posten.......weischt!!!


----------



## utmelidze

OK 
  
 what i mean is that you should take a clean source
 for example my laptop has special USB 3.0 controller inside and when i plug my E12 to USB 3.0 port it has background Hiss
 if I use USB 2.0 which is integrated one, hiss dissapears
  
 if i use external original adapter : no Hiss
 with cheap one: Hiss
  
  
 deutsch ist halt ne internationale sprache
 wer sie nicht versteht ,selber schuld  
 spass


----------



## peter123

iceman600 said:


> Now this is interesting! Fiio created a kit to stack your E12 to X5. I wish there one for iPod classic. Or maybe its time to get a X5
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Nice, I wish they'd come up with a similar solution for the x3.......


----------



## TrollDragon

peter123 said:


> Nice, I wish they'd come up with a similar solution for the x3.......


 
 +1 to that!
  
 The email I received back from them said it would not happen due to the size differences...
 Too Bad, It looks like a great alternative to 3M dual lock...


----------



## metaldood

iceman600 said:


> Now this is interesting! Fiio created a kit to stack your E12 to X5. I wish there one for iPod classic. Or maybe its time to get a X5
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Stacking $120 amp with a $350 dap does not make sense. $350 dap should be more than sufficient to drive.


----------



## pietcux

The E12 is FIIO's TOTL portable amp. For me it makes perfect sense to stack both. Because I will for sure test that combo sooner or later.


----------



## TrollDragon

iceman600 said:


> I dont think this is the right thread to ask this but everyone in here has a Fiio E12 so... What pouch or case do you use for traveling in your portable gear? I already bought two cases and both are fail. It wont fit. Kinda hard to look for what case will work. ;(


 
 Pelican 1020 here but I only have 2 pieces attached.


----------



## iceman600

trolldragon said:


> Pelican 1020 here but I only have 2 pieces attached.


 
 Great!!! May i ask if there are any room when the lid is closed? I mean the Zo2 is not that thick... maybe half a inch more.


----------



## DisCHORDDubstep

metaldood said:


> Stacking $120 amp with a $350 dap does not make sense. $350 dap should be more than sufficient to drive.


that is true for some cans, but the x5 puts out about as much power as an e11. The e12 puts out 3.5 times that. Plus, also if you haven't heard, there are such things as bassheads.


----------



## TrollDragon

iceman600 said:


> Great!!! May i ask if there are any room when the lid is closed? I mean the Zo2 is not that thick... maybe half a inch more.


 
 I have almost a 1/2" of 3M dual lock between the two units and there is an 1/8" to 1/4" free when the lid is closed.
 If you dont use any dual lock, just the bands I bet it would fit.
  
 The rubber liner is quite thick, so you could cutout the bottom just in the shape of the E12 and still keep the water proof integrity of the case.


----------



## iceman600

trolldragon said:


> I have almost a 1/2" of 3M dual lock between the two units and there is an 1/8" to 1/4" free when the lid is closed.
> If you dont use any dual lock, just the bands I bet it would fit.
> 
> The rubber liner is quite thick, so you could cutout the bottom just in the shape of the E12 and still keep the water proof integrity of the case.


 
 Thanks TrollDragon


----------



## TrollDragon

I also use a Lowepro Rezo 50.
 It will hold both the X3 & E12 and has a great belt loop system. The Zo2 might just fit in it as well since there is a lot of room infront. Again like the Pelican case the interconect has to be removed to zipper it up fully closed. I usually leave the zippers at the top open 2 inches when in use.


----------



## Hutnicks

trolldragon said:


> I also use a Lowepro Rezo 50.
> It will hold both the X3 & E12 and has a great belt loop system. The Zo2 might just fit in it as well since there is a lot of room infront. Again like the Pelican case the interconect has to be removed to zipper it up fully closed. I usually leave the zippers at the top open 2 inches when in use.


 

 Yay LowePro! Just FYI If you have a Dollarama anywhere near you they get them in rather frequently for 2 and 3 dollars a piece.


----------



## DisCHORDDubstep

hutnicks said:


> Yay LowePro! Just FYI If you have a Dollarama anywhere near you they get them in rather frequently for 2 and 3 dollars a piece.


you could do what Hawaiibadboy does and buy a body harness for your gear... Quite literally, he does that. And walks around town.


----------



## TrollDragon

hutnicks said:


> Yay LowePro! Just FYI If you have a Dollarama anywhere near you they get them in rather frequently for 2 and 3 dollars a piece.


Yes indeed! I picked up the Clamshell Santiago 30 there just this past weekend for $3, its a great deal! They have some Swiss Gear cases as well, Lowepro needs to dump all their stock at Dollarama.


----------



## howdy

I've looked at this thread for about the last hour and skipped a lot of pages (yes I did use search) and have not found to many comparisons between the E11 and the e12. Can anyone compare the two only sonically. Are they close? Thanks


----------



## TrollDragon

howdy said:


> I've looked at this thread for about the last hour and skipped a lot of pages (yes I did use search) and have not found to many comparisons between the E11 and the e12. Can anyone compare the two only sonically. Are they close? Thanks


The site search function actually works quite well...

Have a look right here...
 www.head-fi.org/t/653564/review-xba-3-vs-xba-30-vs-xba-40/120#post_9342128


----------



## peter123

I don't fine the e11 and e12 particularly close in sq. E12 has better clarity and much better control in the bass department. E11 sounds muddy and loose in comparison.

E12 for me is at least on class above the e11.

I'm really impressed with thew e12 and find it to perform much better than I expected.


----------



## howdy

​


trolldragon said:


> The site search function actually works quite well...
> 
> Have a look right here...
> www.head-fi.org/t/653564/review-xba-3-vs-xba-30-vs-xba-40/120#post_9342128



Like I said I did read a lot of them but must have skipped that one, thanks for showing that one. I was hoping to see some newer ones as well.


----------



## StanD

howdy said:


> I've looked at this thread for about the last hour and skipped a lot of pages (yes I did use search) and have not found to many comparisons between the E11 and the e12. Can anyone compare the two only sonically. Are they close? Thanks


 
 Not close, not by a country mile. The E12 is far better sonically and has much more power. You can also use the E12 while it's charging, The E12 is also built much better, Yes I have both, the E11 hasn't seen an electron is a very long time.


----------



## TrollDragon

I have the E11 and it is attached to my Colorfly C3, works quite well as they are both close to the same size. I enjoy the sound from the E11 as well as the E12 so it also really depends on your application as the E12 is quite large.


----------



## peter123

trolldragon said:


> I have the E11 and it is attached to my Colorfly C3, works quite well as they are both close to the same size. I enjoy the sound from the E11 as well as the E12 so it also really depends on your application as the E12 is quite large.




Seriously?

I don't find that the E11 cant touch the E12 in one single aspect based on sq alone which is what he asked about.

Edit: Mixed them, sorry


----------



## TrollDragon

You are correct Peter, for me though functionality decides a major portion of my portable use and the E12 is a brick that I just don't want to carry sometimes. 

I specifically use it with my DT880's.


----------



## peter123

That I can understand, I still keep my E11 myself


----------



## Joe Bloggs

We are taking a poll on the E12 regarding its crossfeed functionality, please take a little time to cast your vote. Thank you 
http://www.head-fi.org/t/717683/to-crossfeed-or-not-to-crossfeed-fiio-e12


----------



## Change is Good

joe bloggs said:


> We are taking a poll on the E12 regarding its crossfeed functionality, please take a little time to cast your vote. Thank you
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/717683/to-crossfeed-or-not-to-crossfeed-fiio-e12




You should also take a poll on the frequency boost range. There are many of us who prefer and wish you guys would have kept the original bass boost from the pre order units.


----------



## peter123

+1 on the bass boost. The way it's implemented now makes it totally useless in my opinion. Actually the only negative I found on it so far so it's really a shame.


----------



## BenF

peter123 said:


> +1 on the bass boost. The way it's implemented now makes it totally useless in my opinion. Actually the only negative I found on it so far so it's really a shame.


 

 +1
 Wish it would be centered around 50Hz.


----------



## pietcux

I find it just right, well done Fiio. While listening to Bob Marley "NO WomaN NO CRY" on the JVC SZ2000. But perhaps a two level bass boost instead of the crossfeed.


----------



## BenF

pietcux said:


> I find it just right, well done Fiio. While listening to Bob Marley "NO WomaN NO CRY" on the JVC SZ2000. But perhaps a two level bass boost instead of the crossfeed.


 

 You need a bass boost on JVC SZ2000? It's bass-heavy as it is.


----------



## peter123

@pietcux
Good suggestion with a two level bass boost!


----------



## benbenkr

2 level bass boost, the original 20hz and the current 50hz. Keep all camps happy. Call it the E12k.


----------



## pietcux

benf said:


> You need a bass boost on JVC SZ2000? It's bass-heavy as it is.


 

 HBB uses up to 26 dB bass boost on them. For Rock and Pop music I find the Fiio E12 bass boost perfect on the JVC HA-SZ 2000.
  
 You know what is better than *Bass*? More *Bass*.......


----------



## zerodeefex

I have much nicer amps but have kept the preorder unit because the 20Hz boost was actually perfect...


----------



## Lohb

joe bloggs said:


> We are taking a poll on the E12 regarding its crossfeed functionality, please take a little time to cast your vote. Thank you
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Any timescale on the release of the new E12 with removed crossfeed and the shift to lower region bassboost ?


----------



## AngryRaccoon

metaldood said:


> Stacking $120 amp with a $350 dap does not make sense. $350 dap should be more than sufficient to drive.


 
 It almoust always makes sense, enhancing what is already good about ur dap, while taking some extra pressure of dac(saves battery time too), alowing it to output sound in a lower volume which resuts in a better sound overall.
  Plus it really usefull for HI-END low impendance monitor headphones(like a2000x), cos they are usually still bild with stationary use in mind and are needed quite a bit of power to drive them, but due too still having low impendence can't be handled by a portable dac at high volume without losing sq.


----------



## Saoshyant

Ok, just got my Fiio E12 from one of our members today, and I am loving the sound.  Very, VERY pleased with it.  I really only have one question about this amp currently.  Is the volume dial supposed to have that much resistance to it while turning to make sure the volume never accidentally slips, or should I be concerned?
  
 Btw AngryRaccoon, that was a very interesting episode (referring to Snowball)


----------



## Lohb

Fiio,  @Joe Bloggs please release a Kobiconn IRIS version of this cool little amp...!
 It has the juice for some planars but a SE / Balanced interface choice would be great.
 I think there is no decent sub-$150 portable balanced amp with same power output....it's a gap in the market.


----------



## TrollDragon

saoshyant said:


> Ok, just got my Fiio E12 from one of our members today, and I am loving the sound.  Very, VERY pleased with it.  I really only have one question about this amp currently.  Is the volume dial supposed to have that much resistance to it while turning to make sure the volume never accidentally slips, or should I be concerned?
> 
> Btw AngryRaccoon, that was a very interesting episode (referring to Snowball)


 

 My E12 has a stiff turning volume control as well, so I would say it is normal, it has a bit more resistance than my E11 does. I see in your profile you have an E11 as well, how does it compare?


----------



## Saoshyant

The E11 has just enough resistance to feel like it won't slip, my 12 feels like tightening a screw.

Hmm, I wonder if I have any need for the E11 now...


----------



## utmelidze

You cant compare 350 usd dap to 150 usd amp

Dap needs lot more and costs more
Amp is in comparison smaller profile tech piece
Its just not logical to compare so

E12 does very good job with E18 which has the same IC as X5
I would use E12 with X5 for sure
It adds more energy to sound


----------



## howdy

So Joe are you going to leave in hanging? You can't take a poll and just not say anything else,any ideas of something new on the horizon?


----------



## Lohb

howdy said:


> So Joe are you going to leave in hanging? You can't take a poll and just not say anything else,any ideas of something new on the horizon?


 

 + YES !
  
 I want to get one of these E12's now, but I'm not sure when the lower noise floor one is coming out or not.
@Joe Bloggs


----------



## DisCHORDDubstep

lohb said:


> + YES !
> 
> I want to get one of these E12's now, but I'm not sure when the lower noise floor one is coming out or not.
> @Joe Bloggs


wait, FiiO is making an improvement on the E12? Cool!


----------



## Change is Good

benbenkr said:


> 2 level bass boost, the original 20hz and the current 50hz. Keep all camps happy. Call it the E12k.




+1000


----------



## Saoshyant

Hmm, did not know there was 2 versions, any distinguishing marks between the two?


----------



## Change is Good

saoshyant said:


> Hmm, did not know there was 2 versions, *any distinguishing marks between the two?*





Try re-reading the post I just quoted?


----------



## Saoshyant

change is good said:


> Try re-reading the post I just quoted?




Physically distinguishing marks....


----------



## DisCHORDDubstep

saoshyant said:


> Hmm, did not know there was 2 versions, any distinguishing marks between the two?


actually, there's 3 different models. The early model that peaks bass boost at 20hz, current model which peaks at 50hz, and the E12 DIY, which features a bunch of op-amps you can put in or take out.. And the E12 DIY is silver colored. They go for about 200$.


----------



## Saoshyant

Thankya, bought my e12 off a forum member, and my hearing is in no way articulate, so I was curious if there was some physical way to tell the difference. I knew about the diy version already, kind of considered it a different beast entirely.


----------



## Change is Good

saoshyant said:


> Physically distinguishing marks....


 
  
 Ah, I see...
  
 I believe the early models with the lower bass boost have a misprint on the gain switch. While both version are internally +16db on high gain, the pre-order units have a misprint that reads +10db...


----------



## TrollDragon

change is good said:


> Try re-reading the post I just quoted?


Rude Much?


----------



## Change is Good

trolldragon said:


> Rude Much?


 
  
  
 Sometimes...


----------



## TrollDragon

Have a read here...
http://www.head-fi.org/t/650683/fiio-e12-review/90#post_9369484


----------



## Change is Good

trolldragon said:


> Have a read here...
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/650683/fiio-e12-review/90#post_9369484


 
  
 This is all old news.
  
 That was the whole reason for my "rude" response when someone asked of the differences between the two. I just clarified the physical difference he was referring to, and would like to end it there.
  
 But thanks for pulling it up for those who don't know...


----------



## Saoshyant

trolldragon said:


> Have a read here...
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/650683/fiio-e12-review/90#post_9369484




Understood, just figured I should know the particulars about mine, couldn't hurt anyways.


----------



## Hijodelbrx

If I've understood the E12's history correctly, it goes a little something like this:
Initially, when the unit was 1st introduced, and prior to it being commonly available, the 1st batch produced had a stronger bass boost. When the unit became available to everyone, Fiio tweaked the bass boost, less quantity but more quality bass is how I see it. Of course, many of the owners of the 'original' group felt it was better and to this day wish for it's return. That 1st batch was produced in a very limited quantity so these bad boys have become collectors items! Unless someone can provide a link from Fiio stating it's plan to release a new version of the E12, I think any talk about a new v2 of the amp is simply wishful thinking that seems to be snowballing on this site! As far as the DIY version of the E12, I'm pretty sure that I DID read something from Fiio saying it's been, or going to be, discontinued.


----------



## Change is Good

hijodelbrx said:


> If I've understood the E12's history correctly, it goes a little something like this:
> Initially, when the unit was 1st introduced, and prior to it being commonly available, the 1st batch produced had a stronger bass boost. When the unit became available to everyone, Fiio tweaked the bass boost, less quantity but more quality bass is how I see it. Of course, many of the owners of the 'original' group felt it was better and to this day wish for it's return. That 1st batch was produced in a very limited quantity so these bad boys have become collectors items! Unless someone can provide a link from Fiio stating it's plan to release a new version of the E12, I think any talk about a new v2 of the amp is simply wishful thinking that seems to be snowballing on this site! As far as the DIY version of the E12, I'm pretty sure that I DID read something from Fiio saying it's been, or going to be, discontinued.




The bass boost difference is not of the amount nor quality, they're just aimed differently. Please do not confuse people with your assumption of better "quality."



joe bloggs said:


> We are taking a poll on the E12 regarding its crossfeed functionality, please take a little time to cast your vote. Thank you
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/717683/to-crossfeed-or-not-to-crossfeed-fiio-e12




This is why the talk about a new version came up. Some of us just implemented that they should take a vote on the bass boost as well, since many off us would prefer the 20hz boost of the pre order units. But since Joe hasn't responded since this post, we may be wasting our time with the wishful thinking.


----------



## TrollDragon

Sometimes a simple search and the answer is there, a quick copy and paste isn't too much effort, it doesn't matter if it's "Old News" or not, there are people who didn't have the device from day one...

Just like over in the LD Tube Rolling thread we post pinouts and updates to new rollers all the time, that is what these forums are about, otherwise we all should just go hang out in the Sound Science Fiction threads.

Plenty of Rude in those...


----------



## Lohb

....and the E12 thread rumbles back to life, 15 posts overnight...!
  
 Do any of your guys think a portable Fiio with SE/ balanced output would be a good upgrade to this one or an entirely separate product better ?
 You're talking about $300 starting price for a balanced portable amp with decent voltage swing - iBasso PB2...cool amp, exterior design is a bit off-key....dimensions/style/finish a bit sub-par/wonky compared to the sleeker wire brushed E12.
 If there were a sub-$200 balanced Fiio I think it would have a strong following.
 If there is any natural/neutral portable amp similar size to E12 with the juice/22+voltage swing under $200 please let me know...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 If not, there is a gap in the market 4sure....Firestone's one looks under-powered.


----------



## subver

Hey guys, just wanted to see if this is normal:
  
 When I turn the volume up and down I can hear crackling. I don't think this was happening before, been noticing it more lately. Not a huge deal, it sounds fine when not adjusting.
 Something else that is kind of bugging me is that if I wiggle my headphone jack while it's plugged into the E12 I can hear a bit of crackling and cutting out. I thought it was my cable at first but I'm pretty sure it's the headphone port. Not causing any issues yet but if it gets worse I may have to get it fixed somehow.


----------



## WitzyZed

subver said:


> Hey guys, just wanted to see if this is normal:
> 
> When I turn the volume up and down I can hear crackling. I don't think this was happening before, been noticing it more lately. Not a huge deal, it sounds fine when not adjusting.
> Something else that is kind of bugging me is that if I wiggle my headphone jack while it's plugged into the E12 I can hear a bit of crackling and cutting out. I thought it was my cable at first but I'm pretty sure it's the headphone port. Not causing any issues yet but if it gets worse I may have to get it fixed somehow.




Yeah I can confirm it happens on my E12, too, only when adjusting the volume during playback, though. It doesn't do it when nothing's playing on your source, as far as I can tell. I'm only talking about moving the volume knob, though.

As for your headphone out, I'm stumped. Is that the only cable you've fiddled with?


----------



## Hijodelbrx

In my experience, a crackling noise when turning a volume knob (my E12 does this also, although it didn't when I 1st got it) is usually due to dirt. You'd have to remove the knob AND open up the amp to gain access to the volume pot to clean it. This is a very common occurrence, it's happened with various pre-amps I've owned.


----------



## Change is Good

hijodelbrx said:


> In my experience, a crackling noise when turning a volume knob (my E12 does this also, although it didn't when I 1st got it) is usually due to dirt. You'd have to remove the knob AND open up the amp to gain access to the volume pot to clean it. This is a very common occurrence, it's happened with various pre-amps I've owned.




No need to remove anything. Just turn the knob up and down (while not in use, off course) for about a minute. Clears things right up


----------



## WitzyZed

change is good said:


> No need to remove anything. Just turn the knob up and down (while not in use, off course) for about a minute. Clears things right up




Correct me if I'm wrong, as I do this, I'm feeling an unbalanced resistance on the potentiometer on the E12.
It's as if it's harder to move from low-mid, than mid-high. I feel like I read it was done like this on purpose, but knowing I had that crackling noise I wasn't sure if a fall it may (or may not) have taken jostled it in some way.


----------



## TrollDragon

hijodelbrx said:


> In my experience, a crackling noise when turning a volume knob (my E12 does this also, although it didn't when I 1st got it) is usually due to dirt. You'd have to remove the knob AND open up the amp to gain access to the volume pot to clean it. This is a very common occurrence, it's happened with various pre-amps I've owned.


How does one go about cleaning a sealed Alps Pot?


----------



## subver

witzyzed said:


> Yeah I can confirm it happens on my E12, too, only when adjusting the volume during playback, though. It doesn't do it when nothing's playing on your source, as far as I can tell. I'm only talking about moving the volume knob, though.
> 
> As for your headphone out, I'm stumped. Is that the only cable you've fiddled with?


 
 Yeah that's all I've tested, my DT 770 250ohms.. I just tried that again, along with some lovely Apple earbuds and of course I couldn't get it to happen again, so I will have to just keep an eye on it, and when it happens I will try another pair of headphones, too.
  
 Glad I'm not the only one with the crackly volume knob - but yeah no big deal really as it's only while I'm turning it up and down. I just wasn't sure if it would eventually get worse over time or start crackling when not being rotated.
  
 Thanks!


----------



## Change is Good

Did you guys not read my post about turning the knob up and down for about a minute, to rid the dust build up and stop the crackling?


----------



## rped

There are 3 versions of the  E12 mother board marked 00, 01 and 02 all have different date markings as well. So including the DIY version that makes 4


----------



## DisCHORDDubstep

witzyzed said:


> Yeah I can confirm it happens on my E12, too, only when adjusting the volume during playback, though. It doesn't do it when nothing's playing on your source, as far as I can tell. I'm only talking about moving the volume knob, though.
> 
> As for your headphone out, I'm stumped. Is that the only cable you've fiddled with?


that happens on the E11 too.


----------



## x RELIC x

change is good said:


> Did you guys not read my post about turning the knob up and down for about a minute, to rid the dust build up and stop the crackling?




Just did this and it solved the crackling for me. Thanks!


----------



## Hijodelbrx

Me too! Thx! Now to see if this trick'll work with my preamp!


----------



## JamesFiiO

some news share with you guys. we are considering to make a E12IEM version for IEM user. cause the output power of E12 is too high and the hiss is a little bigger too. so we will develop a E12IEM



which is based on E12DIY, and we will use MUSES02+LME49600.


----------



## AngryRaccoon

I did not liked this amp.(dx90+a2000x)
First the good:
It is powerful. Like really freaking powerful.
 SQ it self is quite exceptional, extracting lots of stuff from the record, it's clean and strong too.

 Now the bad:
Sound stage sucks. The quiet, supporting sounds on a track are wide and far while main stuff is in ur face and loud often burring everything else under it. It would't be that bad if there was any kind of warmth to it, but there is none, making it sound artificial and narrow. 

It might be a very legit n cheap way to boost ur Cowon, but as far as using it with more of an a Hi-Fi rigs ...i don't know. For me cold sound and narrow in-ur-face stage is simply shot in a balls for Hi-Fi sound.


----------



## leogodoy

I always thought of the soundstage as a function of the headphone, not the amp. Do you feel the soundstage is narrowed when comparing to the same headphone unamped?


----------



## StanD

leogodoy said:


> I always thought of the soundstage as a function of the headphone, not the amp. Do you feel the soundstage is narrowed when comparing to the same headphone unamped?


 
 Some people believe that this is also a function of the amp. I don't. An amp has a spec called separation which can affect soundstage, however, it has to be very bad to impact this. The E12 is not in that category.


----------



## AngryRaccoon

No, it's not just headphones. U have a certain stage ur HF capable of, we can call it real stage and then there is a... let's call it virtual stage- an illusion of space created with mixing and mastering when record was made or by capturing sound right on stage(like some orchestra records), also stuff like reverberations, dynamic range of different sounds n so on, so when it comes to virtual stage it's up to ur hardware to produce and present it to ur HF so they can present it to u then with their real stage and other characteristics. And cos it's basically just an electric signal created with instructions that is digital code, that is a digital audio file, the quality and representation of what actually was recorded(mixed n mastered) depends on ur DAC, AMP(digital filters, codecs n so on) and the way and materials it's all wired with, the better this stuff is, the better ur player is. Cowon d2 is worse then Fiio X3 cos it's different DAC, AMP and so on... And due to recorded sound not being real sound, but clever trick to reproduce what ones was real by turning it to an electric signal that causin all this vibrations in certain frequencies each piece of hardware has it's own representation of it, again due to each piece of hardware and software being different and cos virtual scene is more of an illusion, hardware(stuff like audio capacitors in ur amp affecting ur stage more noticeably) has a pretty significant effect on the way it presented.  
  
  
 I tested and compared extensively. "Onnin" n "Offin" AMP for month like a crazy person before i come to my conclusion bout E12. DX90 it self has quite wide stage and sound is quite balanced in warmth department. 
 Again, e12 does produce a very clean n hq sound. Just that there is no warmth(warmer sound usually sound better to a human ear, it's sure is so for me) to it and stage appears too forward and narrow, with is not good for almost 1000$(1700$ where i live) rig. 
  And i can't tell how it is with other players n headphones, but a heard and saw similar complaints bout E12. In this tread too.


----------



## AngryRaccoon

stand said:


> Some people believe that this is also a function of the amp. I don't. An amp has a spec called separation which can affect soundstage, however, it has to be very bad to impact this. The E12 is not in that category.


 
 It's quite weird to say that stereo sound does not being affected by hardware it is being processed thru. Felling of stage consist of many things that affect creating an illusion of separation and positioning of instruments n vocals in a 2 channel audio, HP are far from being all of them. It's not just HP having soundstage, it is also the way stage is presented ater being decoded and amplified.


----------



## TrollDragon

Read those aloud three times fast...


----------



## AngryRaccoon

.. I've just found out that i made stupidest mistake ever.... I've been using it with headphone out... And that is dumb)) Reviewing it all over again. It probably will not have such a negative impact on a sound with "Line Out"


----------



## Saoshyant

Hehe, hope you like it now


----------



## StanD

angryraccoon said:


> .. I've just found out that i made stupidest mistake ever.... I've been using it with headphone out... And that is dumb)) Reviewing it all over again. It probably will not have such a negative impact on a sound with "Line Out"


 
 Back to the drawing board. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 Try getting an A/B switch and compare one headphone against two amps Y connected to the same DAC. Match the volumes very carefully and you might be surprised at the outcome. As long as both amps are able to drive your cans and are decent quality, you will be amazed at the results.


----------



## leogodoy

That was your issue. You weren't using it with the levels matched. This accounts for perceived differences when there should be none most of the times.


----------



## pmwoodward

I am looking for a portable amp and the E12 looks like it will fit the bill nicely. I am wondering, what would be the advantage (if any) of a amp/DAC  such as the E17? My intended use will be with an iPhone or iPod. It is my understanding the a the DAC feature of say an E17 would be to have the option of bypassing a crummy PC sound card. Would a DAC have any use or advantage with an iPhone or iPod? My cans are the 64 ohm Jaycar Pro Monitors ( a clone of the Fischer FA-003 / Brainwavz HM5 ). Sorry to sidestep this thread a bit.
  
 Paul


----------



## Change is Good

jamesfiio said:


> some news share with you guys. we are considering to make a E12IEM version for IEM user. cause the output power of E12 is too high and the hiss is a little bigger too. so we will develop a E12IEM
> 
> 
> 
> which is based on E12DIY, and we will use MUSES02+LME49600.




All these different versions of the E12 is getting a bit overwhelming, James, isn't it? Why not just improve on a smaller amp like the E6, specifically for IEMs? Changing the output power on the E12 kills what makes it so unique, a portable amp with the abilty to drive power hungry headphones... without breaking the bank.

While we all do appreciate how FiiO listens to its consumers for quality improvement on its products... I, personally, think that all community input is not always good input (cough, bass boost adjustment, cough)....

But don't mind me... I'm just a bitter E12 owner that wishes he had the pre-order unit...


----------



## Kawaii

The E12 is selling for $90 at Adorama
  
http://www.adorama.com/FIE12.html
  
 Use coupon code: STREETFAIR​


----------



## grizzlybeast

*





??question:*
  
 I read that the older fiio e12 had a week bass boost and the newer ones have a stronger bass boost. How can I know which one I have. I just bought one from sonicsense.com that came today. I have had one before and never really researched it. I just know that I cant remember which one of these fiios I have had had a stronger bass boost.
  
 Is there anyway to tell or anything I should be reading in the insert to let me know which one I have. I def want the one with stronger bass.


----------



## x RELIC x

grizzlybeast said:


> * ??question:*
> 
> I read that the older fiio e12 had a week bass boost and the newer ones have a stronger bass boost. How can I know which one I have. I just bought one from sonicsense.com that came today. I have had one before and never really researched it. I just know that I cant remember which one of these fiios I have had had a stronger bass boost.
> 
> Is there anyway to tell or anything I should be reading in the insert to let me know which one I have. I def want the one with stronger bass.




Not stronger, just shifted up in the frequency spectrum. The original batch, the very first ones, had a bass boost around 20Hz. After customer feedback this was shifted to peak around 50Hz. Both boost around 4-5 db. 

Unless you were one of the very first to purchase one chances are you have the same version as before.


----------



## grizzlybeast

x relic x said:


> grizzlybeast said:
> 
> 
> > *
> ...


 
 good looking out! so no worries then. 50hz boost makes more sense.


----------



## Lohb

grizzlybeast said:


> good looking out! so no worries then. 50hz boost makes more sense.


 

 There was a lower bass boost first issue E12 in FS thread.


----------



## grizzlybeast

I saw that but went ahead with a brand new one


----------



## TrollDragon

grizzlybeast said:


> I saw that but went ahead with a brand new one


Welcome to the Club!
She's a great little amp.


----------



## grizzlybeast

trolldragon said:


> grizzlybeast said:
> 
> 
> > I saw that but went ahead with a brand new one
> ...



It is! Second time buying it. Didn't even care to try the other stuff. If I'm missing out oh well.


----------



## Lohb

grizzlybeast said:


> It is! Second time buying it. Didn't even care to try the other stuff. If I'm missing out oh well.


 

 Do you use the bass boost ? As it can bleed into lower mids I read.
 I wanted that proto E12 but the guy would not ship outside CONUS.  The lower bass boost E12's must be few and far between now.


----------



## grizzlybeast

lohb said:


> grizzlybeast said:
> 
> 
> > It is! Second time buying it. Didn't even care to try the other stuff. If I'm missing out oh well.
> ...


 
 bass is a weird thing. its a part of the spectrum that has a ton of energy and extends into the other areas of the FR when it hits no matter what.
  
 Its nearly impossible to have a very strong thump without a slight midbass hump and its even harder for that not to go into the mids especially on hp's. Whenever I eq 20 HZ i hear it better but dont feel it enough before it distorts.
  
 Something has to give. I dont mind a little bass bleed. I also am less sensitive to it because I tolerate it so much. I do use the bass boost and turn it off and on depending on how the song is mixed.  On the wrong song its definitely a hot mess! I want to try/buy(not build) someones DIY one and A/B it next to mine.


----------



## HofstraJet

Hi - sorry for the noob question, but I just wanted to confirm that I can use the E12 with either the headphone output of my preamp or with a line level output. Do I have to change the gain when using one or the other?
  
 Thanks - this thread is incredible and I have learned so much.


----------



## TrollDragon

hofstrajet said:


> Hi - sorry for the noob question, but I just wanted to confirm that I can use the E12 with either the headphone output of my preamp or with a line level output. Do I have to change the gain when using one or the other?
> 
> Thanks - this thread is incredible and I have learned so much.


 
 Depends what headphones you are connecting to the E12...
 Try it out and see if you have enough volume on low gain, if not, switch to high.


----------



## Za Warudo

I recently got my E12. I'm using it with the X3 to drive Soundmagic HP100 which are rated at 32 ohms and 95 db/mW, not exactly hard to drive but not as sensitive as most IEMs. I can easily hear a noise floor with no music playing. Guess this is only meant for hard to drive cans, but I'm still disappointed by it considering none of my other amps have noise floors with this headphone.


----------



## peter123

I'm a bit surprised about the reports of the noice floor, my E12 is dead quiet. Guess I'm just lucky......

Are people that hear noice using high or low gain? Using bassboost? Hear it no matter what? 

I'm using mine on low gain and never use the bass boost.....


----------



## Za Warudo

I used low gain with no bass boost or crossfeed, the noise floor is still there.


----------



## StanD

za warudo said:


> I used low gain with no bass boost or crossfeed, the noise floor is still there.


 
 Mine's quiet, Maybe you need to get it serviced?


----------



## Za Warudo

stand said:


> Mine's quiet, Maybe you need to get it serviced?




How do I do that? Do I need to contact Fiio directly or the dealer (Adorama)?


----------



## StanD

za warudo said:


> How do I do that? Do I need to contact Fiio directly or the dealer (Adorama)?


 
 I have no idea. Best guess is FiiO. You might be able to PM them on Head-Fi. Check the threads for their users like James, etc.


----------



## Aceman7496

hello all. I have recently purchased a Fiio E12 on amazon through one of Fiio's authorized dealers. So far, I am loving it for my Mad Dogs! I have been driving the Mad Dogs with only an iPad since I got them for Christmas. Needless to say, while I love their sound, it took me a while to get used to the bass levels. I have actually come to realize why not everyone is a bass head and why they love clear sparkling highs :-D Anyway, the E12 with bass boost on is exactly what I was looking for with a portable amp to give a bit more bass presence and punch. I probably use them at work more than anywhere else and find myself on 0 gain about half to 3/4 volume and I have NO noise coming through when I don't have a song playing (crossfade is off btw). Perhaps it could be the pairing with your headphones, I'm not sure. Let us know what you decide to do. 

But the main reason I'm posting here is that I seem to have an issue with the short 3.5 mm cable that came with my E12. If I don't keep the cable at the perfect position, which of course is not a relaxed position, I lose all sound in my left ear and the right gets a little fuzzy. Has anyone else had an issue with this? Do you think Fiio would ship me another cable to replace this one? Or would it be better to just purchase another cable?


----------



## KamijoIsMyHero

So 3.5mm ipad HO to E12 input? 

are you sure the cable is inserted all the way in?


----------



## Aceman7496

kamijoismyhero said:


> So 3.5mm ipad HO to E12 input?
> 
> are you sure the cable is inserted all the way in?




Yes.

It was like this straight out of the box.


----------



## KamijoIsMyHero

You can try a different source and see if it does the same thing. If it is still the same then try a different cable. If the trouble persist then the input is probably damaged.


----------



## Hijodelbrx

With so many accounts of 'noisy' E12's being answered by so many accounts of 'dead silent' (like mine) units, I'm beginning to think there was a faulty production run. I was in industrial production management for over 30 yrs. It happens. Look at all the automobile recalls that are happening right now. If I got a noisy unit or one with a faulty cable, I'd return it immediately. That's what a warrantee's for. Was the money paid defective in any way? If you buy a new unit that's hinky in any way, return it!


----------



## Lohb

Just found a place that mods new E12s like so, they translated as best they could.Costs about $30 extra.
  
 Quote" He change LMH49700 Buffer to 130Mhz to gain more music detail
 and change capacitor output + capacitor input"
  
 Mod is for more detail and a more dynamic "natural tone" with vocals.


----------



## TrollDragon

lohb said:


> Just found a place that mods new E12s like so, they translated as best they could.Costs about $30 extra.
> 
> Quote" He change LMH49700 Buffer to 130Mhz to gain more music detail
> and change capacitor output + capacitor input"
> ...


 

 Nice, considering there is no such chip as a LMH49700...


----------



## Lohb

trolldragon said:


> Nice, considering there is no such chip as a LMH49700...


 

 That's why I posted. Second opinion from audio chip doctors.
 Also could not get the gist of their OP AMP OPA1611 text.


----------



## Saoshyant

BS Trolldragon, LMH49700 is what I call BBQ Baked Lays


----------



## TrollDragon

lohb said:


> That's why I posted. Second opinion from audio chip doctors.
> Also could not get the gist of their OP AMP OPA1611 text.


 

 I get this from Google
 "Two-OP AMP OPA1611 is designed specifically for music. We did not change."
  
 The OPA1611 is actually a good single channel opamp, so I guess they didn't modify it in any way.


----------



## TrollDragon

saoshyant said:


> BS Trolldragon, LMH49700 is what I call BBQ Baked Lays


 

 Spoken in drawl...
 "Y'all give us a bag of them there LMH49700's..."


----------



## Lohb

trolldragon said:


> Spoken in drawl...
> "Y'all give us a bag of them there LMH49700's..."


 

 Mailed them anyway about their LMH49700.They look like they mod entry-level stuff from the site....with imaginary chips !


----------



## TrollDragon

lohb said:


> Mailed them anyway about their LMH49700.They look like they mod entry-level stuff from the site....with imaginary chips !


 

 It will be good to see what they say... Yes indeed the do very simple mods, solder pin 1 to ground (LME49600) and change a few caps.
  
 There was a guy who PM'ed me one time about modding the Colorfly C3, he changed the DAC to the Line Out version, added a buffer stage and a pile of caps. I even think he increased the voltage of the amp to accommodate for the Line Out buffer, filled up the little space that was free inside the C3's case.


----------



## StanD

trolldragon said:


> Spoken in drawl...
> "Y'all give us a bag of them there LMH49700's..."


 
 Sounds like Buffalo Chips.


----------



## TrollDragon

stand said:


> Sounds like Buffalo Chips.


 

 Could be, I wonder if it has one of these in the silicon?

  
 I like the little "Chips" behind the Buffalo, there was one added for each build revision.


----------



## StanD

trolldragon said:


> Could be, I wonder if it has one of these in the silicon?
> 
> 
> I like the little "Chips" behind the Buffalo, there was one added for each build revision.


 
 Looks like the latest 9nm geometry. Those are almost scat molecules. I imagine any opamp made from those chips must have a serious slew rate.


----------



## TrollDragon

stand said:


> Looks like the latest 9nm geometry. Those are almost scat molecules. I imagine any opamp made from those chips must have a serious slew rate.


 
 LOL!


----------



## Aceman7496

kamijoismyhero said:


> You can try a different source and see if it does the same thing. If it is still the same then try a different cable. If the trouble persist then the input is probably damaged.




Yeah, I did all this already, which is how I know the problem is the cable. And to be more specific, the issue isn't the position of the connector inside the amp or source. The problem is the position (or orientation?) of the line between the connectors. It seems that half of the ways that the cable wants to orient leads to loss of sound in my left ear and noise in the right. There is a loss of connection in the line somewhere.


----------



## KamijoIsMyHero

Then you can probably request a replacement


----------



## Lohb

stand said:


> Looks like the latest 9nm geometry. Those are almost scat molecules. I imagine any opamp made from those chips must have a serious slew rate.


 

 So here were the E12 mod kit "magic Buffalo molecules" ...........
 Quote "He change capacitor 11 pcs (8 Brown , 2Green)"..unquote


----------



## StanD

lohb said:


> So here were the E12 mod kit "magic Buffalo molecules" ...........
> Quote "He change capacitor 11 pcs (8 Brown , 2Green)"..unquote
> 
> 
> ...


 
 What's supposed to be so special about the capacitors?


----------



## TrollDragon

Also the two jumpers from pin 1 to 3 on each of the LME49600's to switch it into high BW mode.

Now if he only had a secret stash of Black Gate's...


----------



## Lohb

I'll just quote google translate word salad...it's a head melt translation I know, which is why I tried to extract the main gist of the mod at first....it is $150 for the modded E12. Warranty invalidated obviously.
  
 ""Details behind Modify Ver. (By xxxxxxxxxxxx).
 When captured, Mamoru FiiO E12 ...

 It is enough feedback, we have to solve it for you. A mellow blend E12 is not good. Technique called tonal languages balance (balanced audio) without measuring it. Ears, we judge this song. People will listen to everyone Senses. If you then it is against the natural sounds we've heard it will be felt immediately. Yes, this is it contrary E12. Lack of continuity in some frequency to (probably dropped to the noise filter).

 Input starts at the WIMA capacitor proud of the distortion. But at least some noise Adds high value, it can not because they do not produce. Be noted that other models were put out E12 4.7 to 2.2 because of the pressure.
 So we put a electrolite non-polar capacitor. Hey ... Electrolite sucks! Technically yes But it's a different story. Even in headphone amp. From experience, I think it sounds better than the Broad Stage in harmony soft timing detail in tranches not compete with the speed of the device is the deity specification excellence.

 The second issue capacitor power supply. I dismantled the smd is smooth, then took the plain to reduce centreline.

 The third module adjusts the Buffer from 110Mhz to 18Mhz.

 This makes it sound .... it changed to another one amp (really).

 Voice behind Mo ...
 What is missing, or have any comments to improve it. Particularly harmonious flow Listen Audiophile more Gently pitched a no-hitter as promiscuous and also go a long way up (a little) deeper bass than the bass heavy music not callousness stage surrounded thicker than the original singer's voice sound sweet and smooth."""


----------



## StanD

trolldragon said:


> Also the two jumpers from pin 1 to 3 on each of the LME49600's to switch it into high BW mode.
> 
> Now if he only had a secret stash of Black Gate's...


 
 High BW mode, just incase one wishes to listen to radio stations.


----------



## Lohb

stand said:


> High BW mode, just incase one wishes to listen to radio stations.


 

 OK you two cryptic circuit gurus.... I guess in plain English this is a badly implemented E12 mod upgrade kit.


----------



## TrollDragon

lohb said:


> OK you two cryptic circuit gurus.... I guess in plain English this is a badly implemented E12 mod upgrade kit.


I wouldn't say badly implemented, $150 for a handful of standard capacitors is not worth the money.

If the switch from 110MHz to 180MHz on the buffers was that much better then FiiO would have done it at the factory. I am not sure of the exact application of the high BW mode but I doubt it is for audio.

The best mods anyone can do is to pick up an E12 DIY and play away, if you look at the poll in the DIY thread, the stock opamp and buffer that the regular E12 comes with gets the highest votes for sound quality.

Now if buddy in Thailand offered to move the bass boost frequency and make it switchable off of the crossfeed switch after the crossfeed was disabled, then that might be a useful mod to some...


----------



## TrollDragon

stand said:


> High BW mode, just incase one wishes to listen to radio stations.


Vis a long enough line ve can get Radio Free Moscow, komrade!


----------



## StanD

trolldragon said:


> Vis a long enough line ve can get Radio Free Moscow, komrade!


 
 Does the mod entail quad conversion and a crystal filter IF? For $150, I'll be expecting more than just a few caps, jumper wires and a label.
 My ICOM R7 hasn't seen an electron in decades.


----------



## duga

Hi all,
  
 Long time reader...first time poster.  I'm slowly gaining the confidence to enter the world of audiophile discussion.  Of course, the reason I post is because I have an issue.  Apologies if this has been covered, but this thread is pretty huge.
  
 I used to use my Mont Blanc with an iPhone, which was great because they actually make an OTG cable for that.  I've switched to Android (more storage, more customization...it's just better) but it's really bugging me that I have to go through the headphone jack.  I've seen some debate on whether or not you can get any USB audio out at all...if there is I really want to take advantage of it.  Any recommendations on OTG cables that might work?  I've got a Micro USB 3.0 to female USB that was confirmed to work with the phone just based on its reviews and a male USB to 3.5mm audio that doesn't work (I kinda knew it wouldn't but it was cheap, so I thought what the hell). 
  
 Any thoughts?


----------



## headdict

duga said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Long time reader...first time poster.  I'm slowly gaining the confidence to enter the world of audiophile discussion.  Of course, the reason I post is because I have an issue.  Apologies if this has been covered, but this thread is pretty huge.
> 
> ...



You can't connect e12 via USB. It's a pure amp. You would need something like e18, which is a combined dac/amp.


----------



## StanD

headdict said:


> You can't connect e12 via USB. It's a pure amp. You would need something like e18, which is a combined dac/amp.


 
 And then he'd need the Lightning CCK cable to connect his iPhone to the E18. If he has an older iPhone then he'd need a 30 pin CCK solution.


----------



## headdict

stand said:


> And then he'd need the Lightning CCK cable to connect his iPhone to the E18. If he has an older iPhone then he'd need a 30 pin CCK solution.



Not needed as he switched to Android.


----------



## duga

Thanks for the replies. In a nutshell I need the micro usb 3 version of this:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B005N6ZAT2/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?qid=1403303771&sr=8-1

If it can't happen, it can't happen though.


----------



## TrollDragon

duga said:


> Thanks for the replies. In a nutshell I need the micro usb 3 version of this:
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B005N6ZAT2/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?qid=1403303771&sr=8-1
> 
> If it can't happen, it can't happen though.


That is really not how it works there is no USB to TRS cable... You need DAC/AMP like the FiiO E07K, E17 or E18 to use an OTG USB cable with your phone. I suggest you have a look through the Android / DAC thread on here (can't link for you on mobile) just do a search. Then you can decide if it is all worth it or not as some connections require a passive USB hub and external power source to work...

Or you could just get an X3 for your music and use the phone as a phone...


----------



## KamijoIsMyHero

Also try to understand that a usb will transfer a digital signal, not analog.


----------



## WitzyZed

headdict said:


> You can't connect e12 via USB. It's a pure amp. You would need something like e18, which is a combined dac/amp.



What he said^
You want an E18.


----------



## duga

Thanks again, guys.  Like I said, I'm just recently getting into the technical side of being an audiophile.  Until last year I just couldn't afford buying any extra stuff...now I'm trying to plan out my home system.  Portable comes first, though, since that's how I listen to most of my music..but clearly I still have a lot to learn.
  
 I'm going to check out the e18...


----------



## StanD

duga said:


> Thanks again, guys.  Like I said, I'm just recently getting into the technical side of being an audiophile.  Until last year I just couldn't afford buying any extra stuff...now I'm trying to plan out my home system.  Portable comes first, though, since that's how I listen to most of my music..but clearly I still have a lot to learn.
> 
> I'm going to check out the e18...


 
 The thing is a steal. It sounds great even though in the realm of DACs it's inexpensive. It's built very well, and has a metal enclosure.


----------



## headdict

Plugged my ety hf5 into my fiio e12 and noticed quite some hiss after switching it on. It doesn't change when I turn up the volume. It gets much worse with bass boost, slightly worse with high gain and only very slightly worse with crossfeed. I don't notice the hiss while listening to music, although I listen at rather low volume. The hiss is of course audible during silent passages. There is no hiss whatsoever with other, less sensitive, headphones. Anything I can do about it? I would love to use the e12 in combination with the hf5 and my Note II as source via headphone jack.
  
 BTW plugging the hf5 directly into Note II is not an acceptable solution for me, because Note II has no decent volume control and the sound is IMO somewhat lame compared to e12 (despite the hiss).


----------



## Za Warudo

I'm having the same problem, except my HP100 is nowhere near as sensitive as a HF5.  And this is after getting a replacement (new batch with new red packaging) which has the same issue.  I'm tempted to just return mine even though the $90 I paid for it is a great deal.


----------



## TrollDragon

One of the inline attenuator's would raise the resistance of the IEM's and eliminate the hiss.

Such as this one, there are many others on eBay etc...
http://shop-us.shure.com/p/earphone-adapter-kit?pp=12


----------



## headdict

Thanks, I will try one of those!


----------



## biohazard31

Hi guys
  
 I recently purchased this portable amp, Did you guys tried to use this as your desktop amp? As in you will charge/plug-in this continuously as long as your source is on? I'm a bit worried that doing this will shorten the battery life.TIA for your inputs!


----------



## iceman600

biohazard31 said:


> Hi guys
> 
> I recently purchased this portable amp, Did you guys tried to use this as your desktop amp? As in you will charge/plug-in this continuously as long as your source is on? I'm a bit worried that doing this will shorten the battery life.TIA for your inputs!


 
 I use it on my laptop and it is constantly plugged in. It is plugged with a cellphone charger because it plugging it on the computer's USB port while using it has this static noise. Plugging it on a a direct power source will eliminate that noise. I read it here too that when its fully charged the battery stops charging. I dont know if thats true but i still leave mine plugged in all the time.


----------



## tetsuro

How do you know when the e12 is done charging?


----------



## TrollDragon

tetsuro said:


> How do you know when the e12 is done charging?


As the manual says, the light stops flashing...


----------



## Chris J

tetsuro said:


> How do you know when the e12 is done charging?




When it stops moving!
Ba-dum!


----------



## TrollDragon

Or when it puts the credit card away....


----------



## tetsuro

trolldragon said:


> As the manual says, the light stops flashing...


 
 thanks i skipped the manual heh


----------



## StanD

trolldragon said:


> Or when it puts the credit card away....


 
 You must have bought something expensive....confess, what was it? A DAC?


----------



## Chris J

stand said:


> You must have bought something expensive....confess, what was it? A DAC?




It was a set of interconnects...:rolleyes:


----------



## StanD

chris j said:


> It was a set of interconnects...


 
 C'mon that's small change compared to a multi-thousand dollar DAC. You're gonna have to set your credit card on fire with something bigger than some interconnects if you want to feel guilty. How about an SR009 and matching amp, that ought to kill your wallet, real good. Lucky for me I don't think electrostatics have the same bass zonk as Orthos, plus I'm afraid to put that much voltage around my head.


----------



## TrollDragon

headdict said:


> Thanks, I will try one of those!


 
 Glad the attenuator worked out for you!


----------



## Head-Fried

How would this go with sennheiser hd6 mix's? (150 ohm's) Is there anything better I should get? I could stretch the budget a little


----------



## TrollDragon

head-fried said:


> How would this go with sennheiser hd6 mix's? (150 ohm's) Is there anything better I should get? I could stretch the budget a little


You've asked that same question in 7 different threads... Are the headphones not loud enough for you?


----------



## Head-Fried

lol you stalking my profile? I haven't got a reply in any threads either, I wanted that dac combined but just bought the e12's instead which should be alright


----------



## TrollDragon

head-fried said:


> lol you stalking my profile? I haven't got a reply in any threads either, I wanted that dac combined but just bought the e12's instead which should be alright


 
 No, I don't stalk profiles...
  
 When I see the same question pop up in multiple threads that I subscribe to, it makes me wonder if the poster is:

14 years old...
Bought the headphones because of the "Coolness" factor without any research whatsoever.
Located in India.
Annoying like DisCHORDDubstep and needs to be flagged.
  
 You probably haven't received an answer in the other threads as those headphones are new and targeted more towards DJ's... The E12 has all the power to drive them with authority though.


----------



## Saoshyant

Point #3... That kind of comes off as... Y'know

If it helps, the HD700 is also 150ohm and on paper is a little harder to drive, and the E12 can power those with no issues and sound great.


----------



## TrollDragon

saoshyant said:


> Point #3... That kind of comes off as... Y'know


 
 Sorry, no offense to the Indian Head-Fi'ers, I have many East Indian friends as I grew up in Toronto.
  
 It all stems from helping out in the Introductions and Recommendations thread, way too many "I want BEST headphones $30 my country" the advice given is ignored and the expectation of "You help, I can do $35 now my country"... grows old.


----------



## Saoshyant

I pop my head in there from time to time, but not that often.


----------



## Evshrug

We get the same basic thing in the gaming threads, but sometimes (usually?) they say the same thing in many more words because they're American/British and simply CAN elaborate. IMO, trying to work the threads to find "the best headphone that costs the least" is pretty universal.


----------



## DisCHORDDubstep

aceman7496 said:


> Yeah, I did all this already, which is how I know the problem is the cable. And to be more specific, the issue isn't the position of the connector inside the amp or source. The problem is the position (or orientation?) of the line between the connectors. It seems that half of the ways that the cable wants to orient leads to loss of sound in my left ear and noise in the right. There is a loss of connection in the line somewhere.


same thing happened to my E11 cable they provided.


----------



## mjakopa

Hey everyone!


Just got my E12 yesterday and was really excited to try it out. However I seem to have some issues with the power.

I plugged it into my iPad charger and the light starts blinking normally. Slow at first but then it eventually speeds up. I wanted to leave it to fully charge but after 15 hours it was still blinking fast. I go to try it anyways so after unplugging it from the usb, it won't turn on at all. The only way it turns on is if it's plugged into the usb simultaneously.

Am I missing something here? I reread the manual numerous times and I feel this should be working...

I'm using the supplied USB cable and also tried my phone charger. All the same. The light's blinking as if it's charging but it won't turn on after unplugging it. I've been charging for a good 20 hours at least so far. Not sure what to do!

It was purchased off amazon.ca.


----------



## x RELIC x

mjakopa said:


> Hey everyone!
> 
> 
> Just got my E12 yesterday and was really excited to try it out. However I seem to have some issues with the power.
> ...




Sounds like a dead battery. It should only take 2-3 hours to fully charge from an iPad charger. When fully charged the light will be solid. 

I'd return/exchange it for another. It happens.


----------



## TrollDragon

Have you tried the reset on the back of it?


----------



## Chris J

head-fried said:


> lol you stalking my profile? I haven't got a reply in any threads either, I wanted that dac combined but just bought the e12's instead which should be alright




FWTW,
The E12 can drive any headphone that I own, 62 Ohm AKG Q701, my now sold Beyer DT880, 600 Ohm, etc, etc, etc.


----------



## Chris J

trolldragon said:


> Have you tried the reset on the back of it?




Can you recommend a good headphone for me?
I like music.

Please reply, I need more posts to hit 5,000 posts.


----------



## DisCHORDDubstep

chris j said:


> Can you recommend a good headphone for me?
> I like music.
> 
> Please reply, I need more posts to hit 5,000 posts.


you just made the 3,000th post in this thread! That's an accomplishment in my book!... No idea what to suggest though. You were pretty vague on wants.


----------



## TrollDragon

chris j said:


> Can you recommend a good headphone for me?
> I like music.
> 
> Please reply, I need more posts to hit 5,000 posts.




Well since you're one of those snooty Upper Canadian's I would have to recommend a nice Stax system... Never mind I see you are already Person of Interest in the Stax Mafia. 

So I would suggest some GermanMAESTRO's, A GMP 8.3 series with the new thick HM5 memory foam pad's! Very nice and very German...



* 5K should be easy just pop into the Sound Science Asylum and continue the Sound of a DAP discussion... Lots of BS & AB interaction to be found.  *


----------



## Saoshyant

Very German...  will it make me want Schnitzel?  I love a good schnitzel...


----------



## TrollDragon

saoshyant said:


> Very German...  will it make me want Schnitzel?  I love a good schnitzel...


And if you put Rammstein on, these will make you crave a nice Sauerbraten!

*Das hört sich gut an, aber die traurige Realität ist ja, dass es nicht wahrgenommen wird.*


----------



## Chris J

dischorddubstep said:


> you just made the 3,000th post in this thread! That's an accomplishment in my book!... No idea what to suggest though. You were pretty vague on wants.




Really I'm just giving Troll Dragon a hard time, it seems to be working! 

3,000 post here?
Very cool!  



trolldragon said:


> Well since you're one of those snooty Upper Canadian's I would have to recommend a nice Stax system... Never mind I see you are already Person of Interest in the Stax Mafia.
> 
> So I would suggest some GermanMAESTRO's, A GMP 8.3 series with the new thick HM5 memory foam pad's! Very nice and very German...
> 
> ...




Upper Canadian, eh?
How about some Austrian AKG Q701, Mein Herr?
I was hoping you would recommend some Schmenge Brothers?


----------



## TrollDragon

I forgot all about Yosh & Stan. 

http://youtu.be/lmSC52Npuq0

Candy has been gone 20 years...


----------



## StanD

trolldragon said:


> I forgot all about Yosh & Stan.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Can you recommend a pair of headphones to Chris for listening to this. Unless you step on it, he'll make 5000 before you.


----------



## TrollDragon

stand said:


> Can you recommend a pair of headphones to Chris for listening to this. Unless you step on it, he'll make 5000 before you.


He will get there way before I will, he plays in the Asylum... 

I'd recommend Realistic LV10's for vintage SCTV watching, I always wanted a pair of those...


----------



## Chris J

stand said:


> Can you recommend a pair of headphones to Chris for listening to this. Unless you step on it, he'll make 5000 before you.




I already have a pair of AKG Q460.
Bad headphones for bad music.
I might get an Eddy Current amp for them.
That will make them sound like HD800s.
Fer sure.

Actually I am sitting on my deck right now listening to an E12 with an iPod and a pair of Q701s.


I try to avoid the Lunatic Asylum. :rolleyes:


----------



## TrollDragon

Proper!

I was out on the deck earlier with the GMP's, X3/E12 and a Timmies!

Excellent deck session weather we have!


----------



## StanD

chris j said:


> I already have a pair of AKG Q460.
> Bad headphones for bad music.
> I might get an Eddy Current amp for them.
> That will make them sound like HD800s.
> ...


 
 17 posts and your are an honorary member, whether you like it or not.


----------



## Saoshyant

I spent a little time outside with the X3/E12 + HD700, great day for it
  
 Edit:  Gah, did not notice getting bitten up, my ankles are all an itchy blaze!


----------



## Chris J

stand said:


> 17 posts and your are an honorary member, whether you like it or not.




I can be cured...:rolleyes:


----------



## x RELIC x

Perfect West Coast day outside for X5 - e12 - XC

Bliss.


----------



## mjakopa

You guys are funny... 

Anyways got a new E12 in today from the wonderful people at Headfoneshop, and it works great. Sent the other one back to amazon for my refund. 

Will be unsubscribing now though. No offense.


----------



## Chris J

mjakopa said:


> You guys are funny...
> 
> Anyways got a new E12 in today from the wonderful people at Headfoneshop, and it works great. Sent the other one back to amazon for my refund.
> 
> Will be unsubscribing now though. No offense.




We're seriously screwed up is the honest truth!


----------



## StanD

chris j said:


> We're seriously screwed up is the honest truth!


 
 C'mon man, 8 more and you'll hit the 5K mark.


----------



## DisCHORDDubstep

Is it bad that I joined 5 months ago and already have over 1,600 posts?


----------



## Saoshyant

Around 10 posts a day


----------



## StanD

dischorddubstep said:


> Is it bad that I joined 5 months ago and already have over 1,600 posts?


 
 Try harder


----------



## Chris J

stand said:


> C'mon man, 8 more and you'll hit the 5K mark.




Here's one more.
Maybe a few more pointless "+1" posts on a few threads.

Can I post "-1" on some useless threads?


----------



## DisCHORDDubstep

chris j said:


> Here's one more.
> Maybe a few more pointless "+1" posts on a few threads.
> 
> Can I post "-1" on some useless threads?


-1


----------



## DisCHORDDubstep

saoshyant said:


> Around 10 posts a day


O.O... Actually, sounds about right. I've made like 7 posts today already.


----------



## Saoshyant

Yep, it wouldn't exactly be tough to hit 5000 posts in a year


----------



## DisCHORDDubstep

saoshyant said:


> Yep, it wouldn't exactly be tough to hit 5000 posts in a year


you responded quickly... Actually, I think I was the #1 poster for a week a while back.


----------



## Saoshyant

Pebble watch, vibrates when I get en email


----------



## StanD

saoshyant said:


> Pebble watch, vibrates when I get en email


 
 If you subscribe to the right threads, with email notification, you better get a car battery to run the Pebble.


----------



## Saoshyant

Hehe, I think I have to recharge every 3 or so days due to emails, but it's not annoying


----------



## bizkid

Soooo... Some users reported that the E12 has background hiss with 32 ohms impedance headphones. Is this true or there are defective units?


----------



## TrollDragon

bizkid said:


> Soooo... Some users reported that the E12 has background hiss with 32 ohms impedance headphones. Is this true or there are defective units?


Some have hiss and some claim it does not, apparently it has to do with the crossfeed section of the amplifier. There was talk of FiiO releasing a new E12 specifically designed for IEM's, but I haven't read any more discussion on that.

Maybe the E12K version...


----------



## KamijoIsMyHero

I don't think the hiss will be noticeable for headphones unless it sensitivity is around 120, similar to IEMs


----------



## jvos213

Is anyone else experiencing a very short battery life?
 I've had my E12 for about 2 months now and have not once had the charge last more than 4 to 5 hours...

 For reference, I've been charging it with three different chargers, two 2A and one 2,1A all three 5V but zero difference.


----------



## headdict

jvos213 said:


> Is anyone else experiencing a very short battery life?



What's your setup? Gain setting, headphone impedance and efficiency, listening volume, etc. all contribute.


----------



## jvos213

I'm using low gain from the Fiio X5 with Audio Technica ATH-M50x and the volume is at a fairly high level but not too excessive.


----------



## moorashj

Just got my E-12 from Amazon from Beach Camera.  Could not believe that the package for the E-12 had been opened.  Someone had taken black magic marker to points where there were scratches in order to cover them.  There are many dings and dents on this thing and NO I did not buy an open item poduct, this was suppose to be brand new...uggh want to hear how this thing works already.


----------



## HeadFiend

Amazon will happily refund you and invite you to buy a new one direct from them.


----------



## moorashj

HeadFiend,
 That is what they did and they even upgraded free shipping for 1 day.  Tomorrow should be the day....


----------



## headdict

jvos213 said:


> I'm using low gain from the Fiio X5 with Audio Technica ATH-M50x and the volume is at a fairly high level but not too excessive.



I believe I experienced double the battery life you have reported with similar setups. But I used to listen at relatively low volume. Doubling the output power has a significant, but not huge effect on the perceived loudness, but guess what its effect on battery life is. For comparison, have you tried driving your phones directly from the X5 at the same volume level?


----------



## DisCHORDDubstep

headdict said:


> I believe I experienced double the battery life you have reported with similar setups. But I used to listen at relatively low volume. Doubling the output power has a significant, but not huge effect on the perceived loudness, but guess what its effect on battery life is. For comparison, have you tried driving your phones directly from the X5 at the same volume level?


more importantly, why would you need an amp for an m50x? The m50x can be driven by almost anything... An iPhone can drive it to its full potential. My suggestion: Just use the X5 for right now, try and get the E12 replaced, and get a mid-fi headphone when you get money for it. E12+X5 is a rig I'd use on a 300$+ headphone.


----------



## TrollDragon

dischorddubstep said:


> more importantly, why would you need an amp for an m50x? The m50x can be driven by almost anything... An iPhone can drive it to its full potential. My suggestion: Just use the X5 for right now, try and get the E12 replaced, and get a mid-fi headphone when you get money for it. E12+X5 is a rig I'd use on a 300$+ headphone.


My Suggestion is you should toddle back to your own threads and not give people your opinion on what they should or should not use.

If the OP wanted your opinion on what he should purchase next, he would have asked for it.


----------



## DisCHORDDubstep

trolldragon said:


> My Suggestion is you should toddle back to your own threads and not give people your opinion on what they should or should not use.
> 
> If the OP wanted your opinion on what he should purchase next, he would have asked for it.


why are you replying to me in a rather aggressive manner? If you don't like what i have to say, block me. If the OP doesn't like what I have to say either, then he will ignore me. Either way, the E12 is overkill on an M50X for driving it and the electrical characteristics of the M50X back me up. I probably shouldn't have suggested he buy a new headphone in hindsight, but I would like to let him know that he doesn't need to carry around that E12 everywhere to get the best sound out of the M50X.


----------



## TrollDragon

dischorddubstep said:


> why are you replying to me in a rather aggressive manner? If you don't like what i have to say, block me. If the OP doesn't like what I have to say either, then he will ignore me. Either way, the E12 is overkill on an M50X for driving it and the electrical characteristics of the M50X back me up. I probably shouldn't have suggested he buy a new headphone in hindsight, but I would like to let him know that he doesn't need to carry around that E12 everywhere to get the best sound out of the M50X.


 

 Because you like to poke your face in and express your opinion as to what people *should do*...
  
 Since the OP bought the X5 and E12 as a combo I imagine he likes using both of them together. I have the X3 / E12 combo and I use the E12 with High and Low Z cans as I like the analog volume control better than the digital one on the X3, did you even think that he does as well.  So I don't care if it is overkill or not for the M50X or any other headphone, how do you know he doesn't already own a pair of harder to drive cans or is getting a pair that he might like to use with the E12, or maybe he just likes the cross-feed option...
  
 Again who are you to tell the OP what he should or should not use to get the *best sound* from *his* headphones? Because you read a spec sheet on the M50x's once or do you actually have experience with the X5/E12/M50x combo?
  
 That's why...


----------



## Saoshyant

Gah, we need the catnip again!


----------



## DisCHORDDubstep

EDIT: Not even worth it


----------



## jvos213

Thanks for the reply guys,

 Even with the M50x the difference in sound quality (especially lower end) with the E12 compared to without is remarkable. The longterm plan is of course better headphones 
 Will be testing volume differences compared to battery consumption over the next two days.


----------



## Hijodelbrx

I once mentioned that I use N E12/IP 160GB Classic/UE TF10 combo and discord chimed in with the exact same tired opinion. The fact that a) I'm bypassing the inferior IP amp with the superior E12 and b) more importantly, I clearly HEAR superior sound I opted not to bother answering him at that time. Like he says; why bother? And yet, he continuously tries to discourage E12 users with his 'scientific' opinion. You have to wonder why HE'S bothering.


----------



## Saoshyant

I also kind of wonder how continuing with all this has anything to do with E12s


----------



## jvos213

Thank you for your input,
 I actually mostly use the E12 at home so not much to carry around. I also find that you get a huge difference in the lower end of the music I listen to using the E12 which is not achievable with the X5 alone thanks to the bass switch on the E12.


----------



## headdict

jvos213 said:


> Thank you for your input,
> 
> I actually mostly use the E12 at home so not much to carry around. I also find that you get a huge difference in the lower end of the music I listen to using the E12 which is not achievable with the X5 alone thanks to the bass switch on the E12.



You didn't mention the bass boost before. It's probably quite useful for coplementing the M50's strong mid bass, but adds to battery consumption. Another advantage of using a combo like X5+E12 over X5 alone should be IMPROVED battery life. I'm curious how this works out for you.


----------



## jvos213

Thanks, I should have mentioned the bass boost  You are also dead right in terms of the extended battery life of the X5 when using the E12.


----------



## DisCHORDDubstep

hijodelbrx said:


> I once mentioned that I use N E12/IP 160GB Classic/UE TF10 combo and discord chimed in with the exact same tired opinion. The fact that a) I'm bypassing the inferior IP amp with the superior E12 and b) more importantly, I clearly HEAR superior sound I opted not to bother answering him at that time. Like he says; why bother? And yet, he continuously tries to discourage E12 users with his 'scientific' opinion. You have to wonder why HE'S bothering.


I did? Please quote where I said that, because I can't seem to recall. Anyways, no harm done. OP didn't seem to care much. And yes I agree... Bass boost circuits on amps seem to add a lil something that EQ can't.


----------



## StanD

dischorddubstep said:


> I did? Please quote where I said that, because I can't seem to recall. Anyways, no harm done. OP didn't seem to care much. And yes I agree... Bass boost circuits on amps seem to add a lil something that EQ can't.


 
 You can do the same or even better with a parametric EQ, such as the one in Neutron MP on either Android, ios or player applications on a PC. Some apps have refined graphic equalizers with 2 or more bands below 100 Hz.


----------



## Evshrug

I thought my E12 had shockingly become broken, but thankfully it's just the interconnect cable gone bad (one channel dead). So, I lost my FiiO shorty 3.5mm cable and now the longer one that came with it somehow stopped working (physically has no kinks or anything), where's a good place to get a short 3.5mm interconnect at a low price?



dischorddubstep said:


> EDIT: Not even worth it



Right! Live and let live is the cliché, right? You didn't belittle the OP, you just were making a suggestion about money spent. Of course, I got my E12 in the beginning because I wanted an amp that would basically be good for any future headphones.

I haven't seen many of your posts, but I find the out-of-scale responses to you in this thread to be ironic, considering your name 




saoshyant said:


> Gah, we need the catnip again!



Head-Fi catnip = new gear?
I agree though, I prefer to come here to share the fun I'm having and assume positive intent of everyone else (until proven wrong, but even then I basically say "can we go back to being a community?")




stand said:


> You can do the same or even better with a parametric EQ, such as the one in Neutron MP on either Android, ios or player applications on a PC. Some apps have refined graphic equalizers with 2 or more bands below 100 Hz.



So, what's the difference between a parametric EQ and the EQ (presets) built into an iPhone or iPod?

YMMV, but increasing freq gain using iTunes on my computer adds graininess and sometimes clipping especially noticeable above 3 dB, decreasing stuff sounds better but syrups a little veil over fine details... I prefer a hardware EQ built into an amp, less control but sounds a little better. What sounds undesirable to me with software EQ may not bother others, good thing we both have choices!


----------



## StanD

stand said:


> You can do the same or even better with a parametric EQ, such as the one in Neutron MP on either Android, ios or player applications on a PC. Some apps have refined graphic equalizers with 2 or more bands below 100 Hz.


 
  
  


evshrug said:


> So, what's the difference between a parametric EQ and the EQ (presets) built into an iPhone or iPod?
> 
> YMMV, but increasing freq gain using iTunes on my computer adds graininess and sometimes clipping especially noticeable above 3 dB, decreasing stuff sounds better but syrups a little veil over fine details... I prefer a hardware EQ built into an amp, less control but sounds a little better. What sounds undesirable to me with software EQ may not bother others, good thing we both have choices!


 
 A parametric EQ lets you pick the exact frequency, it's slope or Q as well as the DB level. I can set the low frequency shelf to start at 90 Hz and add a peak at lets say 40 Hz to pull up the low extended bass. I can tune these to get the desired effect. The hardware EQ in the E12 is fixed, you cannot change it. I don't know how things work on iTunes on your computer, but good software and the use of proper settings works wonders. Neutron MP in my iPod Touch 5 G or Android Smartphone works wonders, you can also adjust the preamp gain if you experience clipping. Foobar200 and MediaMonkey work well on a PC, no such problems for me. I also use my PC, Touch 5G and Smartphone with External DACs.


----------



## aamer23

trolldragon said:


> That is really not how it works there is no USB to TRS cable... You need DAC/AMP like the FiiO E07K, E17 or E18 to use an OTG USB cable with your phone. I suggest you have a look through the Android / DAC thread on here (can't link for you on mobile) just do a search. Then you can decide if it is all worth it or not as some connections require a passive USB hub and external power source to work...
> 
> Or you could just get an X3 for your music and use the phone as a phone...


 
 Or FiiO X5 which does DSD too


----------



## aamer23

trolldragon said:


> Because you like to poke your face in and express your opinion as to what people *should do*...
> 
> Since the OP bought the X5 and E12 as a combo I imagine he likes using both of them together. I have the X3 / E12 combo and I use the E12 with High and Low Z cans as I like the analog volume control better than the digital one on the X3, did you even think that he does as well.  So I don't care if it is overkill or not for the M50X or any other headphone, how do you know he doesn't already own a pair of harder to drive cans or is getting a pair that he might like to use with the E12, or maybe he just likes the cross-feed option...
> 
> ...


 
 Yep I do agree, however, you could use some more of your soft skills just a little just sometimes 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




I'm sure the guy was trying to be helpful 
 That said I have a X5 and I am thinking about E12 with Mrspeaker AD which I already have. I just find X5 a little harsh at higher volumes and I cannot hear some of the details at lower volumes might be my ears though be nice on the comments please otherwise i might cry


----------



## TrollDragon

aamer23 said:


> Or FiiO X5 which does DSD too


Like the X3 it does not play native DSD but converts it to PCM for playback.


----------



## TrollDragon

aamer23 said:


> Yep I do agree, however, you could use some more of your soft skills just a little just sometimes :atsmile: I'm sure the guy was trying to be helpful


Seriously...

He is notorious for voicing his opinion on gear that he has never heard or had any experience with, so my "soft skills" were not required. If you found that post a little too harsh, then by all means hit the little flag in the corner of it.


----------



## aamer23

trolldragon said:


> Seriously...
> 
> He is notorious for voicing his opinion on gear that he has never heard or had any experience with, so my "soft skills" were not required. If you found that post a little too harsh, then by all means hit the little flag in the corner of it.


 
 mate, i was just mess'in with you, and i don't know the history as i am still new to headfi and i would not red flag you anyways


----------



## aamer23

+ just checking to see if you had any soft skills


----------



## aamer23

trolldragon said:


> Like the X3 it does not play native DSD but converts it to PCM for playback.


 
 ops i messed up then should have bought x3 then


----------



## TrollDragon

aamer23 said:


> mate, i was just mess'in with you, and i don't know the history as i am still new to headfi and i would red flag you anyways


 
 All is cool. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 How are the AD's? I have a DBV3 modded version of the T50RP's and they really shine when driven by the E12 plugged into the Line Out of the X3. The X3 would probably run them on High Gain but it chews the battery up a lot quicker and I like the extra headroom the E12 provides.


----------



## TrollDragon

aamer23 said:


> ops i messed up then should have bought x3 then


 
 The dual µSD cards are a bonus on the X5.


----------



## aamer23

I love the AD they are detailed, musical and can have a very heavy bottom end if thats what you want. for me better than HD 600, 650 and 700. I would say only the HD 800 are better across the board. The fun part is the bass tuning ports on each cup and the doggy treats that are supplied for you to add to the inside of the cups to tune the treble response.


----------



## aamer23

I just read that the X3 will now also play DSD files too (DSD x 1) after FW update


----------



## aamer23

also just found the spec sheet for The PCM1792A and it says that PCM 1792 accepts PCM and DSD audio data formats, providing easy interfacing to audio DSP and decoder chips.  http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/pcm1792a.pdf
 I am not technical so please advise if this means native DSD or DSD to PCM conversion


----------



## TrollDragon

That has been discussed in the X3 and X5 threads, both devices do PCM conversion of the DSD files.


----------



## aamer23

ok got that. however FiiO should make that clear no biggie though as the only DAP that does native DSD is the AK as far as i am aware and I was never going to spend 2500 USD on a DAP


----------



## aamer23

X5 amp stage is it weaker (less power) than the E12 or is improved SQ due to just separating amp from the DAC just reducing noise in the circuits


----------



## x RELIC x

*From the FiiO website specifications:*

FiiO e12 output power > 880mW @32 oHm

FiiO X5 output power > 255mW @32 oHm

So yes, the e12 is a significantly more powerful amp than the X5 amp. The e12 is overall much better compared to the X5 amp and I highly recommend pairing it with the X5. The line out on the X5 is very clean and feeds the e12 a clear, powerful signal (1.5Vrms).

Edit: I also recommend the HS6 stacking kit if only for the high quality interconnect that comes with it.


----------



## Saoshyant

Doesn't hurt the HS6 is easy to attach as well, never particularly liked the big rubber bands in that respect.


----------



## aamer23

HS 6 Looks good thanks for the recommendation


----------



## peter123

I've ordered the Cayin C5 to compare with the E12, should be interesting. I'll pair them with the X3.


----------



## StanD

peter123 said:


> I've ordered the Cayin C5 to compare with the E12, should be interesting. I'll pair them with the X3.


 
 Don't forget to get an A/B switch and carefully match the volumes.


----------



## rgr555

would a E12 be a good improvement for Macbook Pro Retina and iPhone 5S ? How does E12 + iPhone 5S effect battery life on my phone?
  
 I will then get a X5 later down the road


----------



## headdict

rgr555 said:


> would a E12 be a good improvement for Macbook Pro Retina and iPhone 5S ? How does E12 + iPhone 5S effect battery life on my phone?
> 
> I will then get a X5 later down the road



What cans are you using?


----------



## rgr555

headdict said:


> What cans are you using?


 
  
 DUNU 1000 for now and B&W P7 in the future
  
 As of now I'm prob going to get a X1 when it comes out or maybe a used X5.....


----------



## jcbrunelli

Please, will the red LED turn on when the battery is in a low power condition? My E12 just turns off and I didn't notice any warning other than the blue LED always on. Thanks.


----------



## jaxz

I'm not sure if it's red or blue, but the led light blinks when battery is low.


----------



## JamesFiiO

jaxz said:


> I'm not sure if it's red or blue, but the led light blinks when battery is low.


 
  
 yes


----------



## bms44974

If mine blinks red, it does so for a rather short period (shorter than my typical 1-hour listening session) since I have never noticed it blinking before it shuts down. I will admit that I'm not typically watching the E12 while listening so it would be easy for me to miss.


----------



## x RELIC x

bms44974 said:


> If mine blinks red, it does so for a rather short period (shorter than my typical 1-hour listening session) since I have never noticed it blinking before it shuts down. I will admit that I'm not typically watching the E12 while listening so it would be easy for me to miss.




When it blinks head for the charger as there is very little time before imminent death.


----------



## PrettyLights

Hello. Was lucky enough to attain a pair of HifiMan HE-500's, currently running ipod touch + Fiio E12 , anyone else heard this setup or feel the E12 can drive the 500's effectively. Also just to put it out there , i feel the bass boost is fantastic on the E12.


----------



## bms44974

At 38 Ohm, the E12 should have no problem driving the HE-500s.


----------



## StanD

prettylights said:


> Hello. Was lucky enough to attain a pair of HifiMan HE-500's, currently running ipod touch + Fiio E12 , anyone else heard this setup or feel the E12 can drive the 500's effectively. Also just to put it out there , i feel the bass boost is fantastic on the E12.


 
 In my collection, I happen to use an Touch 5G with an E12 and HE-500. Seems to work fine, although it might be a touch short on power if you like to listen very loudly.


----------



## PrettyLights

ty stan n bms


----------



## PrettyLights

Stan that's a sweeet portable setup , simple yet very effective.


----------



## StanD

prettylights said:


> Stan that's a sweeet portable setup , simple yet very effective.


 
*Very* portable. At the going price, the E12 is a steal.


----------



## justpete

I just got the E12 today - I have an X5 that I'm using as a DAP.   I find the E12 underpowered.  I'm basically at max volume on both the X5 and and E12, and it's just barely adequate for LCD 2's (rev 2, pre-fazor)
 Did I get a dud?

 If you guys are saying the E12 is adequate for the HE 500s - I'm a bit confused.


----------



## bms44974

You need to use the Line out of the X5. The X5 volume control is only for the headphone jack.


----------



## TrollDragon

You have the E12 on High Gain yes? (Little switch on the side indent towards the 16)


----------



## justpete

bms44974 said:


> You need to use the Line out of the X5. The X5 volume control is only for the headphone jack.


 
 Ah.  That would explain it.  I hadn't had time to look up the different ports, and assumed it was stereo only.  Will try that.  Thanks.


----------



## justpete

trolldragon said:


> You have the E12 on High Gain yes? (Little switch on the side indent towards the 16)


 
 That was it.  Thanks.
  
 I didn't notice those before.


----------



## TrollDragon

justpete said:


> That was it.  Thanks.
> 
> I didn't notice those before.


 

 You are most welcome.


----------



## x RELIC x

justpete said:


> That was it.  Thanks.
> 
> I didn't notice those before.




I'm blown away with how many people don't know the capabilities of the things that they purchase. Not picking on anyone, just very surprised overall.


----------



## Chris J

x relic x said:


> I'm blown away with how many people don't know the capabilities of the things that they purchase. Not picking on anyone, just very surprised overall.




Real men don't read manuals?


----------



## ClieOS

Just want to mention that E12IEM, or officially E12A, has been announced.


----------



## x RELIC x

chris j said:


> Real men don't read manuals?




Right. 

But knowing how to do something is not the same as knowing what it can do. 

Scenario...........

Lazy consumer: "Man I love this new truck. It's so shiny and big! Wait... What's this? How can I get more traction off-road. My rear tires seem to be slipping all the time and I'm not satisfied! Does anyone know how to get more traction? What's the trick? I'm thinking of returning this thing!

Informed consumer: "Turn on 4x4"

Lazy consumer: "That did the trick, thanks man!"


----------



## Chris J

x relic x said:


> Right.
> 
> But knowing how to do something is not the same as knowing what it can do.
> 
> ...




LOL!
BTW, I was trying to be sarcastic in my post you quoted!


----------



## x RELIC x

chris j said:


> LOL!
> BTW, I was trying to be sarcastic in my post you quoted!


----------



## OlyPanda

clieos said:


> Just want to mention that E12IEM, or officially E12A, has been announced.


 
Oh man,I just got my E12 last week! What are the differences?


----------



## ClieOS

olypanda said:


> Oh man,I just got my E12 last week! What are the differences?


 
  
 It will have an MUSES02 as opamp, and has a smaller voltage swing. No bass boost or crossfeed, but better clarity and soundstage while lower in hiss. It is mainly designed for IEM and sensitive headphone.


----------



## whatsgood

The older E12 will probably remain better for bassheads then.


----------



## PanzerIV

Ah I so hate when a company release a new better product within 1 year of owning their latest product so now I'm already gonna have an outdated product (-_-). I never liked the bass boost or crossfeed feature on the E12, I find them totaly useless when being used on my (Beyerdynamic T90) headphone and even on the neutral (DT880) which I also have so having a better opamp with more clarity and soundstage and less hiss can only be better for my 250Ohm headphone!

 Is there any official release date and price? Also where do you guys buy Fiio products as they are extremly rare and hard to find in Canada :/

 I am also about to buy a (Fiio X3) player as it appears to be using a very good DAC etc on it but I'm wondering if then after hooking it to my E12 if I'll be bypassing all the good stuff from the X3 to only be using the opamps found in the E12 or am I still gonna get and notice the improvement from the X3 player??? I currently have a (Cowon S9 32Gb) player and I really like also the idea of being able to use a 64-128Gb MicroSD card.


----------



## jay-w

Why is your E12 outdated?
  
 I've got version1 and never think of it as being outdated. Works brilliantly.


----------



## x RELIC x

panzeriv said:


> Ah I so hate when a company release a new better product within 1 year of owning their latest product so now I'm already gonna have an outdated product (-_-). I never liked the bass boost or crossfeed feature on the E12, I find them totaly useless when being used on my (Beyerdynamic T90) headphone and even on the neutral (DT880) which I also have so having a better opamp with more clarity and soundstage and less hiss can only be better for my 250Ohm headphone!
> 
> 
> Is there any official release date and price? Also where do you guys buy Fiio products as they are extremly rare and hard to find in Canada :/
> ...




Headphone bar has a great selection of FiiO products with great prices. I buy all my FiiO headfi gear there. Good service too. 

When using the X3 line out you lose the bass/treble tone controls, but the line out is pretty good. The DAC is very nice in the X3 and the e12 is very good if you have hard to drive headphones. However, the X3 should drive your 250Ohm headphones without a problem. I think you'll prefer it over the Cowan. 

I don't think your missing out on much as the new e12 is designed for IEMs.


----------



## TrollDragon

All my FiiO gear came from HeadphoneBar or B&H, both are excellent.

The E12 adds the needed headroom for driving my DT880's without having to switch the X3 into high gain mode. I like the analog volume control as well. I don't EQ the DT880's as their neutral sound is perfect for me with the Line Out of the X3.


----------



## PanzerIV

x relic x said:


> Headphone bar has a great selection of FiiO products with great prices. I buy all my FiiO headfi gear there. Good service too.
> 
> When using the X3 line out you lose the bass/treble tone controls, but the line out is pretty good. The DAC is very nice in the X3 and the e12 is very good if you have hard to drive headphones. However, the X3 should drive your 250Ohm headphones without a problem. I think you'll prefer it over the Cowan.
> 
> I don't think your missing out on much as the new e12 is designed for IEMs.


 
*1-* Thanks a lot for showing me HeadphoneBar, this store looks really nice and they're the one with the most products from Fiio in the whole Canada. Prices looks good too as sometime when a company pretty much have a "monopoly" in the country, they tend to boost the prices. I will definitely be ordering there as shipping is also very cheap and I'm gonna pay only 5% tax instead of Quebec's 15% or risk getting custom fees from Internationnal stores.

*2-* When using the Line-Out you lose the Bass/Treble tone controls, yet you don't lose your customized EQ? If so, is it because the tone controls are hardware based and the EQ is done through the DAC?

*3-* I'm sure the X3 would be able to drive decently enough my headphone as they are fairly sensitive even though they are rated 250Ohm, however isn't the purpose of an amp is not just about giving you a higher volume but also more clarity in the high and better low-ends too because it has a higher voltage swing? Mind you the X3 is only rated (>200mW@32Ω) while the E12 is (>880mW@32Ω) so almost 5 time more powerful!
  
*4-* I just read from the Fiio's press that the new E12a might be 0.003% THD instead of 0.005% and also 115dB SNR instead of 110dB but the amp part will be twice less powerful at (>410mW@32Ω) so yea I guess even though it's gonna have Muse02 opamps, it will only be meant for IEM, not big cans.
  


trolldragon said:


> The E12 adds the needed headroom for driving my DT880's without having to switch the X3 into high gain mode. I like the analog volume control as well. I don't EQ the DT880's as their neutral sound is perfect for me with the Line Out of the X3.


  

*1-* So there is also a "_High Gain_" mode on the X3 as well as on the E12? With such headphones I guess the best thing to do is the avoid the high gain on the DAP then only set the amp "E12" on high gain so avoid making a "_double high gain_"? In fact what produce a better sound and less hiss between... high volume + low gain vs low volume + high gain? O_o I'm a little confused over here.

*2-* Just to make sure I understand some facts correctly before making my purchase online tonight, since I will obviously be using the Line-Out from the DAP as I have the E12, does it mean I will be bypassing every Opamps from the player and only be using its DAC as well as the Opamp from the E12? The main reason I'm wondering is that if it's true then it means I wouldn't be noticing much difference between the X1 or X3 versus the extremly expensive X5 as the only difference would be the DAC as I'll be bypassing the higher-end opamps anyway???


 Thank you a lot guys if you can clear these questions up for me!


----------



## Mr Trev

I'll also add Headfoneshop in Toronto.


----------



## x RELIC x

panzeriv said:


> *1-* Thanks a lot for showing me HeadphoneBar, this store looks really nice and they're the one with the most products from Fiio in the whole Canada. Prices looks good too as sometime when a company pretty much have a "monopoly" in the country, they tend to boost the prices. I will definitely be ordering there as shipping is also very cheap and I'm gonna pay only 5% tax instead of Quebec's 15% or risk getting custom fees from Internationnal stores.




You're welcome. 




panzeriv said:


> *2-* When using the Line-Out you lose the Bass/Treble tone controls, yet you don't lose your customized EQ? If so, is it because the tone controls are hardware based and the EQ is done through the DAC?




Custom EQ isn't available in the official FW on the X3, just tone control. It was proven unstable in Beta FW so they ditched it. On the X5 it's implemented on the SOC so you can have custom EQ on all outputs and files that are 24bit/48kHz and lower. 




panzeriv said:


> *3-* I'm sure the X3 would be able to drive decently enough my headphone as they are fairly sensitive even though they are rated 250Ohm, however isn't the purpose of an amp is not just about giving you a higher volume but also more clarity in the high and better low-ends too because it has a higher voltage swing? Mind you the X3 is only rated (>200mW@32Ω) while the E12 is (>880mW@32Ω) so almost 5 time more powerful!




Yes, more voltage swing can be good for dynamics when listening to music and typically why you want some headroom with your amp. You had mentioned hiss and concern over the e12 so in case you don't like it you can use the X3 in high gain on its own. I'd recommend using the combo. 




panzeriv said:


> *4-* I just read from the Fiio's press that the new E12a might be 0.003% THD instead of 0.005% and also 115dB SNR instead of 110dB but the amp part will be twice less powerful at (>410mW@32Ω) so yea I guess even though it's gonna have Muse02 opamps, it will only be meant for IEM, not big cans.




Right. 




panzeriv said:


> *1-* So there is also a "_High Gain_" mode on the X3 as well as on the E12? With such headphones I guess the best thing to do is the avoid the high gain on the DAP then only set the amp "E12" on high gain so avoid making a "_double high gain_"? In fact what produce a better sound and less hiss between... high volume + low gain vs low volume + high gain? O_o I'm a little confused over here.




The line out bypasses all amp and tone control on the X3 so you will not be using high gain or high volume on the X3 when using line out. The only amp/volume control you will have is with the e12 in this configuration. 




panzeriv said:


> *2-* Just to make sure I understand some facts correctly before making my purchase online tonight, since I will obviously be using the Line-Out from the DAP as I have the E12, does it mean I will be bypassing every Opamps from the player and only be using its DAC as well as the Opamp from the E12? The main reason I'm wondering is that if it's true then it means I wouldn't be noticing much difference between the X1 or X3 versus the extremly expensive X5 as the only difference would be the DAC as I'll be bypassing the higher-end opamps anyway???




Yes this is how it works. The biggest difference is in the DAC implementation which gives the DAP its sonic flavour where the amp should be as transparent as possible. Amps may add colour to the sound but most of the warmth and detail difference between the X3 and X5 comes from the DAC (having owned both using the line out to e12). I haven't heard the X1 but it would be the DAC that would be the difference using line out. I find FiiO's DAC implementations to be pretty good.

Edit: The iPad made this post a multi-edit ordeal. Also, sorry for answering for TrollDragon but I was on a roll.


----------



## PanzerIV

x relic x said:


> Amps may add colour to the sound but most of the warmth and detail difference between the X3 and X5 comes from the DAC *(having owned both using the line out to e12)*. I haven't heard the X1 but it would be the DAC that would be the difference using line out. I find FiiO's DAC implementations to be pretty good.


 

 Hehe no problem for the multi-quote and answering at his place. Your reply couldn't be any better and is exactly how I love them even though I've noticed most people and girls mostly, tend to be annoyed "more lazy?" when they have to read more than 2-3 lines because you've answered at everything at once rather than only 1 thing. The more details the better in my opinion ^^

*1-* It sucks that even 1.5 years later Fiio didn't find a way to include (Custom EQ) on their latest X3 firmware. It's usualy the most important "software feature" though now it matters much less since my Beyer T90 isn't as neutral/flat as the DT880 so I no more need a slight EQ or Bass boost. Just making sure... the custom eq which have been ditched, is it only for Line-Out or also for everything??? There is still the "bass boost" on the E12 but I dislike it as you cannot control the intensity as it seems to be a fixed +4dB on a too broad range of frequency rather than a specific one so it adds too much bass and coloration to the music. It's still very strange if they are able through line-out to offer an EQ but no custom EQ O_o

*2-* *A)* Since you've owned both the X3 + X5 while also using the line out to the E12, nobody else than you would be better suited to answer the following question  Why did you buy the X5, did you have the X3 first then you decided to upgrade to the X5? The price difference between the X3 & X5 is pretty much double so +100% but how about the sound quality in your opinion, is it like +20% better, even more or less?
*B)* Is the soundstage wider on the X5 and if so, how easy can you notice it?

*3-* It's a shame the X3 doesn't have a scroll wheel for better UI navigation like their counter-parts as I feel like the X1 is less expensive, smaller/lighter, better navigation "buttons", have an interface at least as good as the X3 or even better, a worse amp which I don't care as I'll be using the E12 anyway... so pretty much the only downside could have been the much smaller battery of _1700mAh_ instead of _3000mAh_, yet what I don't understand is that it is still ~12H so What?! If by some miracle that is true, it means the ONLY thing that could possibly be worse than the X3 is no USB-DAC function and I'd guess by logic since it's less expensive... a DAC chip not as detailed "good" as the X3. Am I right or am I missing something else?


----------



## x RELIC x

panzeriv said:


> Hehe no problem for the multi-quote and answering at his place. Your reply couldn't be any better and is exactly how I love them even though I've noticed most people and girls mostly, tend to be annoyed "more lazy?" when they have to read more than 2-3 lines because you've answered at everything at once rather than only 1 thing. The more details the better in my opinion ^^
> 
> *1-* It sucks that even 1.5 years later Fiio didn't find a way to include (Custom EQ) on their latest X3 firmware. It's usualy the most important "software feature" though now it matters much less since my Beyer T90 isn't as neutral/flat as the DT880 so I no more need a slight EQ or Bass boost. Just making sure... the custom eq which have been ditched, is it only for Line-Out or also for everything??? There is still the "bass boost" on the E12 but I dislike it as you cannot control the intensity as it seems to be a fixed +4dB on a too broad range of frequency rather than a specific one so it adds too much bass and coloration to the music. It's still very strange if they are able through line-out to offer an EQ but no custom EQ O_o
> 
> ...




Careful, girls aren't lazy! That's a pretty blanket statement that can get a person in trouble (speaking from experience). 

Most of the issues I had with the X3 were hardware limitations. The processing hardware is the limit for not implementing an EQ and it isn't available at all. The tone controls are way better than the EQ in the X5 as far as SQ is concerned IMO, and they can go a long way to enhance/tweak the sound. The hardware buttons were the reason I didn't like the UI (I prefer a scroll wheel, others prefer the buttons). The single mSD card wasn't for me. A lot of people don't want to use a portable amp so that's why the amp is so powerful in the X3. However it's all about trade offs. I don't think there was a better performing DAP SQ and power output wise than the X3 when it was released at its price point, which was FiiO's goal with the X3 and they succeeded in that point. The market has changed rapidly though. 

You have to understand that the X3 is FiiO's first DAP and is essentially modelled after the internals of the e17 amp/DAC so they were learning the ropes with it. The X3 button configuration I feel is an example of being new to the market when it first came out, therefore not the best design out there. 

When the X5 was released it didn't take long for me to prefer its detail and soundstage. I'd say, for me, it does indeed sound 20% better at least, maybe more. I like the X5 SQ for its clarity and natural presentation. I liked the X3 for its musicality and hardware tone controls. For me it came down to interface, memory expansion, detailed sound, and soundstage. Easily worth the extra money to me. With FiiO it seems you do get what you pay for. The X1 is less money and you get less features, but they are learning and continuing to improve their line. 

I remember a while back FiiO mentioned an updated X3 would be released, which would more than likely include the improvements seen in the X5 and X1, but who knows when that will be released. 

As far as SQ differences I'd personally look at the DAC as the biggest factor in sound signature as the amp section should be as transparent as possible (or easy to change with line out). The X5 PCM1792 is natural, clear and detailed with great instrument seperation. The X3 Wolfson WM8740 is warm and musical with good instrument seperation. 

So for me....... 

X3 for musicality and power with excellent hardware tone controls.

X5 for detailed natural clarity and interface and more memory expansion (notice that I don't emphasize the EQ). 

X1 for price, size and convenience (I haven't heard it). Smaller form factor with a weaker amp and no USB DAC function. Hence the smaller battery with the same run time.

Edit: Appologies to all for rambling. I must have said the same thing at least 4 times over.


----------



## PanzerIV

x relic x said:


> As far as SQ differences I'd personally look at the DAC as the biggest factor in sound signature as the amp section should be as transparent as possible (or easy to change with line out). The X5 PCM1792 is natural, clear and detailed with great instrument seperation. The X3 Wolfson WM8740 is warm and musical with good instrument seperation.
> 
> X3 for musicality and power with excellent hardware tone controls.
> 
> ...


 
 Oh well even though it might be +20-25% better sound-wise than the X3, I can't say right now that it is worth paying 350$USD instead of 155$USD Shipped so I guess I'll just wait for the *X7* to be out in 2015 then the X5 should drop in price and be more available in used condition as right now it is too recent to find any "used like new" for cheaper so you must pay the full retail price and I think for somebody who wouldn't already have an E12 or good headphone, he'd be better off spending that extra 200$ on a better headphone and/or an amp too.

*1-* It is still weird that the smaller battery from the X1 last as long as the one from the X3. I mean, yes it doesn't have an USB-DAC function but if you ain't using it and that your screen is shut down, why simply listening to music while doing nothing else would use more battery?! That also makes me wonder, if I use the line-out to the E12, the internal battery of the DAP should last much longer right?

*2-* You said you don't emphasize on the EQ from the X5. What you meant exactly by that and why talk so much about the hardware tone controls of the X3? Is it because they stripped away the hardware tone control on the X5 and used only a 10-Band software EQ instead, which you find useless?

 Alright, so I prolly spent overall 6 houres reading many things online to make sure I get the right model for me and it appears it is gonna be the X3 for now  You've helped me a lot with my decision, thanks a million time.


----------



## x RELIC x

1 - Yes, when not using the built in amp the battery lasts much longer. As a matter of fact I clocked around 28 hours using my X5 coaxial out (bypassing the amp and DAC) to the HA-1 DAC/amp and still had a couple bars left. FiiO is going to list typical usage with the player alone, not with different amps etc. 

As for the X1 battery life you should realize that the amp really is a huge draw on battery life so it's not unreasonable to get around the same play time from a less powerful amp. Also, different DACs draw different power as well. It's a system that has to work with the design goal in mind, not just components. 

2 - Yes, they stripped the tone controls away from the X5 and replaced them with the SOC EQ (Silicon On Chip). The EQ on the X5 is good enough for me to cut frequencies I find to be unbalanced with certain headphones (Vmoda m-100 bass for example) but it still is a digital implementation that I find inferior to the X3 tone controls. You can't beat an analogue hardware implementation. It's simply cleaner and more natural to me. The trade off is you can't use them on anything but headphone out. 

You should be happy with the X3. Enjoy!


----------



## rimbaud65

Recently bought an Ipod touch, 5th generation, which might be a mistake because of the sound quality = not very good. However, I've seen much reviews in favor of this Mont Blanc amp so I figure on a purchase. In reviews I have seen people are using a line out cable such as Fiio L9 instead of using the audio cable in the package, so I would like to do that also, but apparantly I can't because I can't find any Fiio-cable that fits the 5th generation Ipod touch. They are made for 1th, 2th, 3th, 4th generation but not for the 5th. So my question is this, how much difference will it make for the sound quality if I use the audio cable instead of a line out cable?


----------



## PanzerIV

rimbaud65 said:


> Recently bought an Ipod touch, 5th generation, which might be a mistake because of the sound quality = not very good. However, I've seen much reviews in favor of this Mont Blanc amp so I figure on a purchase. In reviews I have seen people are using a line out cable such as Fiio L9 instead of using the audio cable in the package, so I would like to do that also, but apparantly I can't because I can't find any Fiio-cable that fits the 5th generation Ipod touch. They are made for 1th, 2th, 3th, 4th generation but not for the 5th. So my question is this, how much difference will it make for the sound quality if I use the audio cable instead of a line out cable?


 
 That is a really good question. First, I didn't know Apple made their bottom connector different on the 5th generation and I'm not even sure if they kept it the same "prolly" for the new 6th. Since it's been out for quite a while it's surprising Fiio didn't update their iPod Line-Out cable O_o

 You should have said with which headphone you want to use the iPod 5th + E12 as you might be better off going with the E17/18 instead that is a DAC/AMP combo. Sure the amp isn't as powerful in those but you'd get a better DAC than the one from your iPod. I took the E12 as I needed more power for my 250Ohm headphone and the DAC inside the (Cowon S9) I have is already better than those from Apple and I'll change it anyway soon for the Fiio X3 player that blow away anything from Apple.

 I remember though when I use long ago to use the Line-Out from the iPod Classic 80Gb to an home-made amp and it is of course always better but it is far from night & day difference. You know sometime it seems much bigger on paper than in pratice so try to do it if possible but if it's too much hassle to find or too pricey then forget about it and try instead selling ur iPod to get a Fiio X1-3.


----------



## TrollDragon

The 5G is only digital with no analog output, you would need a Lightning to 30 pin adapter and then a regular LOD like the FiiO L9 to the E12.
 http://store.apple.com/ca/product/MD823ZM/A/lightning-to-30-pin-adapter
  
 Unless they make a Lightning/Line Out cable these days.


----------



## rimbaud65

panzeriv said:


> You should have said with which headphone you want to use the iPod 5th + E12 as you might be better off going with the E17/18 instead that is a DAC/AMP combo.


 
 Sennheiser Momentum.


----------



## PanzerIV

rimbaud65 said:


> Sennheiser Momentum.


 
 What?! So you have 18Ohm headphone, the lowest I've ever seen on full-sized cans and you're thinking about getting an external amp for this!? It makes absolutely no sense as usualy the common lowest for that size is 32ohm which is still extremly easy to drive without amp. I'd say *under 125ohm don't even bother*.

 I've had some brand new Momemtum "given" to me for only 100$ but I hated the closed design, the small soundstage, the overemphasized bass, the bad confort, etc. I exchanged them for a used pair of DT880 32ohm even though I had a new pair of the same in 250ohm and that I now have the Beyerdynamic T90 which is even better, also in 250ohm.
 www.head-fi.org/t/627587/sennheiser-momentum-review


----------



## KamijoIsMyHero

Some people use an external headphone amp to bypass the integrated amp of a DAP which may be of lesser quality....


----------



## Saoshyant

There is so much more to how easily driven something is than just ohms. Take the he-400, its 35ohm and most certainly benefits from amplification.


----------



## skamp

panzeriv said:


> What?! So you have 18Ohm headphone, the lowest I've ever seen on full-sized cans and you're thinking about getting an external amp for this!? It makes absolutely no sense as usualy the common lowest for that size is 32ohm which is still extremly easy to drive without amp. I'd say *under 125ohm don't even bother*.




Actually, voltage requirements being equal, lower impedance headphones are _harder_ to drive, because:



 they require more current than higher impedance headphones
 they require smaller output impedance in order to be driven properly (e.g. 18 / 8 = 2.25Ω), which limits the number of suitable devices.


----------



## StanD

trolldragon said:


> The 5G is only digital with no analog output, you would need a Lightning to 30 pin adapter and then a regular LOD like the FiiO L9 to the E12.
> http://store.apple.com/ca/product/MD823ZM/A/lightning-to-30-pin-adapter
> 
> Unless they make a Lightning/Line Out cable these days.


 
 The Lightning cable only carries digital. The approach you suggested will have to use a DAC in the adapter that is not as good as what is already in the Touch 5G. The best bet is to either double amp the 5G, the internal amp is very quiet and very clean, so it shouldn't be as scary as one might imagine. I have done this with an E12 and it works rather well., If one doesn't need more power, the 5G can do the job on its own.
 The best way to significantly improve things is to use the Lightning CCK cable and go the way of an external DAC/Amp. I've done this with an E18 (direct) as well as a Schiit Bifrost Uber USB using a powered USB Hub.


----------



## TrollDragon

stand said:


> The Lightning cable only carries digital. The approach you suggested will have to use a DAC in the adapter that is not as good as what is already in the Touch 5G. The best bet is to either double amp the 5G, the internal amp is very quiet and very clean, so it shouldn't be as scary as one might imagine. I have done this with an E12 and it works rather well., If one doesn't need more power, the 5G can do the job on its own.
> The best way to significantly improve things is to use the Lightning CCK cable and go the way of an external DAC/Amp. I've done this with an E18 (direct) as well as a Schiit Bifrost Uber USB using a powered USB Hub.


 
 Thanks for the info StanD, I am not up to date on the various Apple hookups and configurations...


----------



## StanD

trolldragon said:


> Thanks for the info StanD, I am not up to date on the various Apple hookups and configurations...


 
 I'm normally in the Android camp, however, the Touch 5G is an exceptional product, except for limited storage, no external SSD. So, I picked one up. The USB audio implementation is very good and no longer requires special overpriced DACs whose manufacturers were forced to pay tribute to Apple for the licensing rights to their protocol  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 rotten Apple.. By the way the Touch 5G's amp has an output impedance of less than 1 Ohm, if it could push out more power it would be perfect.


----------



## rimbaud65

stand said:


> I'm normally in the Android camp, however, the Touch 5G is an exceptional product, except for limited storage, no external SSD. So, I picked one up. The USB audio implementation is very good and no longer requires special overpriced DACs whose manufacturers were forced to pay tribute to Apple for the licensing rights to their protocol
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Funny how different we are when we review and have opinions on these matters. I had an ipod touch, 3 gen, for a while but I had to trash that because the home button didn't work anymore, etc, so I got this 5 gen. instead and the sound quality is much worse - tinny sound, the 3 had a meatier sound, more body to it. Now you can tweak it with Itunes which makes it acceptable I guess, but still these products don't get better with time, that's for sure. Ipod touch is probably not made for music but other stuff, right?


----------



## rimbaud65

panzeriv said:


> What?! So you have 18Ohm headphone, the lowest I've ever seen on full-sized cans and you're thinking about getting an external amp for this!? It makes absolutely no sense as usualy the common lowest for that size is 32ohm which is still extremly easy to drive without amp. I'd say *under 125ohm don't even bother*.
> 
> I've had some brand new Momemtum "given" to me for only 100$ but I hated the closed design, the small soundstage, the overemphasized bass, the bad confort, etc. I exchanged them for a used pair of DT880 32ohm even though I had a new pair of the same in 250ohm and that I now have the Beyerdynamic T90 which is even better, also in 250ohm.
> www.head-fi.org/t/627587/sennheiser-momentum-review


 
 So, judging from you you could only buy an amp to the Ipod touch if you are to drive "bigger" headphones? I have AKG K701 and Sennheiser HD 600 as well but I don't plan to use those for this portable gear but only the Sennheiser Momentum. Isn't it possible to gain improvement in sound quality when you're using portable amps?


----------



## PanzerIV

rimbaud65 said:


> So, judging from you *you could only buy an amp to the Ipod touch if you are to drive "bigger" headphones?* I have AKG K701 and Sennheiser HD 600 as well but I don't plan to use those for this portable gear but only the Sennheiser Momentum. Isn't it possible to gain improvment in sound quality when you're using portable amps?


 
 Well it seems like there are a few exceptions according to people who know more technical stuff than me but in general I'd say yes, _usualy_ an amp is more worth it for people with headphone of higher resistance. Your Momemtum was even made to be easily driven by any mp3 player as Sennheiser says quite a few time in their product description so I highly doubt that it falls in one of those exception category.

 I had the AKG K702 just before I go with Beyerdynamic and previously had the HD555 which are 2 headphone that did benifit from the amplification, mostly the AKG even though it was only 64 Ohm. As someone said above, you will get a somewhat improved sound quality by going with an external amp, even if your headphone don't require amplification, if the internal amp on your device sucks but the biggest difference will be mostly noticeable in my opinion when you really do require an amp and/or when you go to an external DAC which is gonna be better than the one inside your iPod. That is why I was suggesting to just sell your iPod then get a Fiio X1 or X3 if you can afford it, otherwise go with a DAC/AMP combo such as the E17/18 from Fiio. The E12 would only be worth it if you'd be using mostly your AKG over the Momentum.


----------



## StanD

stand said:


> I'm normally in the Android camp, however, the Touch 5G is an exceptional product, except for limited storage, no external SSD. So, I picked one up. The USB audio implementation is very good and no longer requires special overpriced DACs whose manufacturers were forced to pay tribute to Apple for the licensing rights to their protocol
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
  


rimbaud65 said:


> Funny how different we are when we review and have opinions on these matters. I had an ipod touch, 3 gen, for a while but I had to trash that because the home button didn't work anymore, etc, so I got this 5 gen. instead and the sound quality is much worse - tinny sound, the 3 had a meatier sound, more body to it. Now you can tweak it with Itunes which makes it acceptable I guess, but still these products don't get better with time, that's for sure. Ipod touch is probably not made for music but other stuff, right?


 
 I don't use the stock player as I didn't like the sound, I use Neutron which in the past was only available on Android. I get fantastic bass, etc. with Neutron. The 5G can actually drive my HD600's. My HE-500's need more power, but that's probably the case with any portable DAP. The 5G can drive IEMs, even low impedance IEMs, beautifly.


----------



## Chris J

skamp said:


> Actually, voltage requirements being equal, lower impedance headphones are _harder_ to drive, because:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




So very, very true.
Many seem to forget these factors.
IPods are not really known for outputting a lot of current!

The benefits of the E12 are 
Uno: that it can drive loads that require a lot of current, fer example, a low impedance, low efficiency headphone
AND
Duo: The E12 can drive loads that need a lot of voltage like a pair of 600 Ohm Beyers.


----------



## fluidz

Would just like to add that I had an htc one m7 paired with this amp and pfe232 iems. The result was sibilant harsh sound at times, I think the m7 amp + e12 were too much for my iems, I was just about to purchase a new portable amp almost twice the price believing the e12 was the cause, until I bought an iphone 6 this morning that is. The e12 + ip6 is a beast combo, no longer are the sibilant treble peaks overwhelming, it's a great sound signature when combined with pfe232s. And this is using Spotify 320kbps. I'm keeping the e12 for sure.


----------



## Gibalok

Im planing to use it with Denon AH-D7100 and Bose QC15. Should I get E12 or E12A?


----------



## Gibalok

olypanda said:


> Oh man,I just got my E12 last week! What are the differences?


 
 Im planing to use it with FIIOX5 + Denon AH-D7100 and Bose QC15. Should I get E12 or E12A?


----------



## Shawn71

gibalok said:


> Im planing to use it with FIIOX5 + Denon AH-D7100 and Bose QC15. Should I get E12 or E12A?




E12! To drive those HPs as E12A is little different league....also it can drive power hungry HPs with ease,incase if you want to try hd600,beyers etc.....


----------



## StanD

gibalok said:


> Im planing to use it with Denon AH-D7100 and Bose QC15. Should I get E12 or E12A?


 
 The QC15 has it's own electronics/amp so I doubt that using an additional amp is beneficial.


----------



## Gibalok

stand said:


> The QC15 has it's own electronics/amp so I doubt that using an additional amp is beneficial.




The normal level of sound is 80 with FIIOx5 with Bose QC15. So i think that additional amp can help. With Denon 7100 the level is 60.. So definetely i should try E12 with local dealer.


----------



## StanD

gibalok said:


> The normal level of sound is 80 with FIIOx5 with Bose QC15. So i think that additional amp can help. With Denon 7100 the level is 60.. So definetely i should try E12 with local dealer.


 
 The QC15 has a level switch, is it on hi?


----------



## DisCHORDDubstep

trolldragon said:


> Seriously...
> 
> He is notorious for voicing his opinion on gear that he has never heard or had any experience with, so my "soft skills" were not required. If you found that post a little too harsh, then by all means hit the little flag in the corner of it.


... I've heard the X5+E12 combo running through a HE-400i. Just saying. I've also heard the M50's. (I know, took a while to respond.) those were MY opinions. Dont be a jerk about it.


----------



## TrollDragon

dischorddubstep said:


> ... I've heard the X5+E12 combo running through a HE-400i. Just saying. I've also heard the M50's. (I know, took a while to respond.) those were MY opinions. Dont be a jerk about it.




 Dude... Really...

That stuff was almost 2 months ago. Now you have been to a meet and heard a few headphones much better than your AKG's. It still doesn't qualify you to comment on stuff you heard for 10 minutes in a noisy room...


----------



## DisCHORDDubstep

trolldragon said:


> Dude... Really...
> 
> That stuff was almost 2 months ago. Now you have been to a meet and heard a few headphones much better than your AKG's. It still doesn't qualify you to comment on stuff you heard for 10 minutes in a noisy room...


please dont comment unless you were there.  it was more than 10 minutes, and it wasn't very noisy to be honest... I admit I was a cocky idiot quite a bit earlier... Pm me and I'll apologize to you for my actions. I am looking to make amends with those I've annoyed and pissed off.


----------



## chattycathy727

How does the e12 compare to the Cayin C5?


----------



## TrollDragon

dischorddubstep said:


> please dont comment unless you were there.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 That's ok... No need to make amends, we will just let it drop.


----------



## TrollDragon

chattycathy727 said:


> How does the e12 compare to the Cayin C5?


 

 Did you ask this in the Cayin C5 thread?


----------



## retskrad

I laugh when people say the LOD makes the headphones have "better separation, better highs" etc. The only difference between the 3,5 mm audio jack and the LOD is that you control the volume only through the amp.

This industri is full of placebo and the companies are laughing all the way to the bank .


----------



## peter123

chattycathy727 said:


> How does the e12 compare to the Cayin C5?


 
 I've posted a brief comparsion in the C5 thread so you should find it by searching that thread.


----------



## x RELIC x

retskrad said:


> I laugh when people say the LOD makes the headphones have "better separation, better highs" etc. The only difference between the 3,5 mm audio jack and the LOD is that you control the volume only through the amp.
> 
> This industri is full of placebo and the companies are laughing all the way to the bank .




Respectfully, some people may prefer the portable amp to the built in DAP amp because of different opamps or circuit design which could very well enhance the audio. Also, if using harder to drive headphones an external portable amp would definitely give a more full sound.


----------



## StanD

x relic x said:


> Respectfully, some people may prefer the portable amp to the built in DAP amp because of different opamps or circuit design which could very well enhance the audio. Also, if using harder to drive headphones an external portable amp would definitely give a more full sound.


 
 Perhaps he meant to use the 3.5mm jack to supply an external amp as one might do with the LOD. Some DAPs are clean quiet enough that double amping won't degrade the sound enough to be concerned. IMO, the Apple Touch 5G would be such a case.


----------



## Gibalok

stand said:


> The QC15 has a level switch, is it on hi?


 
 Yes, sure.


----------



## x RELIC x

stand said:


> Perhaps he meant to use the 3.5mm jack to supply an external amp as one might do with the LOD. Some DAPs are clean quiet enough that double amping won't degrade the sound enough to be concerned. IMO, the Apple Touch 5G would be such a case.




Ah, I see. I speed read the post and didn't consider that. In that case I hear what he means (see what I did there).


----------



## retskrad

Whats the pros and cons of using 0 dB gain and 16 dB? I'm using the he-400 which was low ohm but needs more voltage I think.


----------



## ClieOS

retskrad said:


> Whats the pros and cons of using 0 dB gain and 16 dB? I'm using the he-400 which was low ohm but needs more voltage I think.


 
  
 Low gain means lower noise. You always want to start with lowest gain setting first, then turn it up if you don't have enough volume.


----------



## retskrad

So the only difference is noise? Doesnt high gain cause distortion?


----------



## ClieOS

retskrad said:


> So the only difference is noise? Doesnt high gain cause distortion?


 
  
 Distortion is a form of noise.


----------



## Chris J

retskrad said:


> So the only difference is noise? Doesnt high gain cause distortion?




High gain does not necessarily cause distortion. 

High gain can only cause distortion when the input signal is too high (i.e. the input voltage is excessive) causing the amplifier to go into clipping.
OTOH, you can always turn the volume down.....!


----------



## StanD

clieos said:


> Distortion is a form of noise.


 
 Distortion is an alteration or nonlinearity of the input signal (music). Noise is an altogether different animal. In electronics, noise is a random signal. There are different colors of noise, white, pink, red, etc that describe the distribution of frequencies.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_noise


----------



## Saoshyant

Just something I really feel the need to point out.  Wikipedia is pretty much never considered valid source material.  The validity of the information in many cases is suspect, and when at all possible, other sources should be used.  While the information may be correct, using a credible source can minimize this risk.


----------



## StanD

saoshyant said:


> Just something I really feel the need to point out.  Wikipedia is pretty much never considered valid source material.  The validity of the information in many cases is suspect, and when at all possible, other sources should be used.  While the information may be correct, using a credible source can minimize this risk.


 
 I'm an EE. Circuit noise is random, sometimes 1/f (ficker) noise. There are frequency profiles as I mentioned, pink, red, white... This has nothing to do with the source signal. Distortion, harmonic, intermodulation and so on is an alteration of the source signal. Random noise and nonlinearity are different. I learned this at the University, If you wish, you can find many fine technical resources on the Internet or a library that will spell this out as I've stated, perhaps not in a simple non-mathematical way. Wikipedia is not necessary if you wish to look further, you will find what I have stated.


----------



## Saoshyant

You kind of missed the point I was making entirely, seeing that I wasn't questioning your statement whatsoever.  In short form, "Wikipedia isn't a credible source for citing"


----------



## StanD

saoshyant said:


> You kind of missed the point I was making entirely, seeing that I wasn't questioning your statement whatsoever.  In short form, "Wikipedia isn't a credible source for citing"


 
 OK, no problem, I wasn't formally citing in a research paper. One can find many credible sources after a brief consultation with Professor Google.
 Here's a good start. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Keep an Aspirin handy.
http://www.k-state.edu/ksuedl/publications/Technote%204%20-%20Noise%20in%20Electronic%20Systems.pdf


----------



## Saoshyant

Ha, K State.  Coming from a Jayhawks family here


----------



## StanD

saoshyant said:


> Ha, K State.  Coming from a Jayhawks family here


 
 I could always lie and say that I'm a clairvoyant. Just happened to be one of the first things that Google turned up for me from a University. I'd rather be a clairvoyant and be ready for the horse races.


----------



## Saoshyant

It certainly doesn't help that noise has multiple definitions depending on context/field.


----------



## StanD

saoshyant said:


> It certainly doesn't help that noise has multiple definitions depending on context/field.


 
 We're in the context of amps. That should narrow the field,


----------



## ClieOS

stand said:


> Distortion is an alteration or nonlinearity of the input signal (music). Noise is an altogether different animal. In electronics, noise is a random signal. There are different colors of noise, white, pink, red, etc that describe the distribution of frequencies.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_noise


 
  
 Anything that coming out of the amp that isn't intended is my definition of noise, otherwise it should be the music. It might not fit into your EE definition but it is perfectly fine as my layman definition.


----------



## Chris J

clieos said:


> Anything that coming out of the amp that isn't intended is my definition of noise, otherwise it should be the music. It might not fit into your EE definition but it is perfectly fine as my layman definition.




You can't just make up a definition of noise!
You have to respect the profession.
Do you mind if I disrespect your profession?
Do you believe that I argue with my friend the baker on how to bake a loaf of bread?
No! Why would I do that?


----------



## ClieOS

If you have your own way of baking a bread and you like it more than what your baker friend has made, I'll say more power to you.


----------



## Saoshyant

This is why I dislike semantic arguments.  The intention behind what is said is generally disregarded so people can argue about how it's said.  In many cases people are trying to convey the exact same message, they just argue about how to do so, and ultimately detract from the purpose in which the idea was originally being conveyed.


----------



## ClieOS

saoshyant said:


> This is why I dislike semantic arguments.  The intention behind what is said is generally disregarded so people can argue about how it's said.  In many cases people are trying to convey the exact same message, they just argue about how to do so, and ultimately detract from the purpose in which the idea was originally being conveyed.


 
  
 True. Let go back to the program.


----------



## StanD

clieos said:


> Anything that coming out of the amp that isn't intended is my definition of noise, otherwise it should be the music. It might not fit into your EE definition but it is perfectly fine as my layman definition.


 
 If one wishs to communicate with the rest of the world and make sense, they must do so following standards,especially if they are reviewing equipment. Do you prefer chaos over comunication?


----------



## Currawong

I've removed a number of abusive, trolling and off-topic posts. Respecting definitions is important, but also respecting the rules here is too, if we are to all be able to discuss things.
  
 I believe that the topic was ClieOS suggesting another member start with the low gain setting to avoid noise.


----------



## colbear001

Hey guys I have a pairing question, I see people pairing an e12 with a fiio X5, and I thought of something.  Since the X5 at 32 ohms is about 300mw of power and people feed that into the e12, i was wondering if i could do galaxy s4 --> e18 --> e12.  Since the output of the e18 is about 350mw of power, i think it wouldnt hurt the amp.  The reason i want to do this is because i love the sound quality of the dac in the e18, but dont have an extra external dac and need more power.  So my question is, can i go from S4 --> e18 --> e12 --> or is it bad for the e12?


----------



## Saoshyant

You'd just be running the line out to the E12 in either case, unless I'm misremembering and the E18 has no actual line out.


----------



## colbear001

Ok so I'd be better just going S4 --> e12??


----------



## StanD

colbear001 said:


> Ok so I'd be better just going S4 --> e12??


 
 The E18 has a better DAC, The E18 has a line out to connect to the E12 if the E18 doesn't have enough output power.


----------



## StanD

saoshyant said:


> You'd just be running the line out to the E12 in either case, unless I'm misremembering and the E18 has no actual line out.


 
 It has a dual purpose jack that is a line input if the USB/DAC is not in use which serves as a line out when the USB/DAC is used,


----------



## Saoshyant

That's efficient sounding


----------



## colbear001

stand said:


> It has a dual purpose jack that is a line input if the USB/DAC is not in use which serves as a line out when the USB/DAC is used,


 
 So what that means is that I can use the line input as an output if im using the DAC and connect the e12 to the line output?


----------



## conquerator2

Heya guys.
 I just received the E12 today. It is certainly a very solid piece of gear! The volume knob is a bit tight and the toothpick requiring gain and crossfeed switch is a bit strange but the build quality is solid and the power it packs is pretty great/
 As for X1 vs X1-E12, for now the biggest advantage is in the power on tap and warmness - the E12 being quite a bit warmer without any bass boosts/ crossfeeds.
 This just shows how amazing the X1 is though.
 I am quite satisfied with the E12 but I suppose I wasn't expecting it to be noticeably warmer than the X1.
 For the money though, the value is absolutely great and the build, features and even overall performance are very good.
 It is not a total killer IMO and the X1 then is stupendously good so far indeed.
 I suppose I should have paid a bit more and go for a more expensive portable amplifier instead but for what it is, the Fiio did a great job!
 Though I still think the X1 is a through-the-roof value if I've ever had one


----------



## TrollDragon

The dampened volume control on the E12 is much better than the ultra loose one on the E11K.


----------



## waynes world

conquerator2 said:


> Heya guys.
> I just received the E12 today. It is certainly a very solid piece of gear! The volume knob is a bit tight *and the toothpick requiring gain and crossfeed switch is a bit strange ANNOYING *but the build quality is solid and the power it packs is pretty great/
> As for X1 vs X1-E12, for now the biggest advantage is in the power on tap and warmness - the E12 being quite a bit warmer without any bass boosts/ crossfeeds.
> This just shows how amazing the X1 is though.
> ...


 
  
 Fixed that for you! I really don't know why they didn't make those like the bass boost switch. Apart from that, I love my E12(v1), especially for any of my gear that has fairly large soundstages or that are not too warm to begin with.


----------



## howdy

i agree, i use my E12 to easily power my HE400i with my X5..


----------



## Chris J

colbear001 said:


> So what that means is that I can use the line input as an output if im using the DAC and connect the e12 to the line output?




Yeah, that's right.
You can cable the "Line In/Out" on the E18 into the "Line In" on the E12 if you are using the E18 as a DAC.




colbear001 said:


> Hey guys I have a pairing question, I see people pairing an e12 with a fiio X5, and I thought of something.  Since the X5 at 32 ohms is about 300mw of power and people feed that into the e12, i was wondering if i could do galaxy s4 --> e18 --> e12.  Since the output of the e18 is about 350mw of power, i think it wouldnt hurt the amp.  The reason i want to do this is because i love the sound quality of the dac in the e18, but dont have an extra external dac and need more power.  So my question is, can i go from S4 --> e18 --> e12 --> or is it bad for the e12?




I noticed this question was kinda left hanging there.....
If you did plug the headphone jack on the E18 into the "Line In" on the E12 you wouldn't actually damage the E12.
The "Line In" on the E12 would not actually pull 350 mW out of the E18.

But the best way to run E18 into E12 is the E18 "Line In/Out" in the E12 "Line In".


----------



## StanD

stand said:


> It has a dual purpose jack that is a line input if the USB/DAC is not in use which serves as a line out when the USB/DAC is used,


 
  
  


colbear001 said:


> So what that means is that I can use the line input as an output if im using the DAC and connect the e12 to the line output?


 
 Yes, I've done this and it works.


----------



## colbear001

Ok thanks guys that just made my life a lot easier


----------



## Hal Rockwell

Does E12 v1 has any real collectable value since it was manufactured in a limited quantity of 200 units for Chinese market only?


----------



## Evshrug

Well, "collectable" is determined by demand. It was also released in limited quantities in the US, I got super lucky to get a "OG" E12 from pre-market launch. You can tell if it's the first release because the silks teeming for the gain selector says "10 dB," even though internally the gain is a 17 dB boost. My opinion is it is the more desirable version since the bass boost is centered at 20 Hz, REALLY low bass. Both the current and first E12's have a 6 dB bass boost, but the first E12's boost the bass where most open headphones are pretty rolled off, so it is more of a bass "extender" and doesn't bleed at all into mids, very clean and atmospheric.


----------



## ElephantAudio

campj said:


> How do I know when the E12 is charged fully? Will it hurt the battery to keep it plugged in indefinitely? Thanks.


----------



## bms44974

the LED will stop flashing. I do not know if leaving it plugged in will affect performance or batter life.


----------



## Chris J

Battery should be charged and discharged periodically.

But if you have it plugged in all the time, who cares about battery life?


----------



## campj

I'm not sure why I was quoted, I posted that over a year ago. My E12 has been sold and gone for nearly six months.


----------



## HotIce

bms44974 said:


> the LED will stop flashing. I do not know if leaving it plugged in will affect performance or batter life.


 
  
 It doesn't harm to leave it plugged. All decent battery powered electronics has a $0.1 chip which regulates the charging.
 I leave mine plugged for long time.
 What I noticed, is that led continue to pulse, while turned on. Immediately after I turn it off, it does a couple more pulses, than goes fixed.


----------



## StanD

hotice said:


> It doesn't harm to leave it plugged. All decent battery powered electronics has a $0.1 chip which regulates the charging.
> I leave mine plugged for long time.
> What I noticed, is that led continue to pulse, while turned on. Immediately after I turn it off, it does a couple more pulses, than goes fixed.


 
 That's probably a trickle charge to keep your battery topped off.


----------



## Genjisleeps

Hey guys I finally finished my portable setup with the e12 and I'm using the JVC HA-SZ2000. Its terrific, the sound is amazing and the bass is great. I'm planning on getting the Grado sr80e's in January. But what I'm wondering is what other headphones would you use with the fiio e12's.
  
 My setup is this: Fiio X5 > HS6 Line out > Fiio e12 > JVC HA-SZ2000. What other headphones would you use that would sound great and bass would be booming?


----------



## beaver316

So I purchased this amp used a few days ago and got it today. Something I'm noticing is that the volume dial is very tight. I've read that it's tight in reviews, but I didn't expect it to be quite like this. Is it supposed to be really tight? Also is the volume pot meant to be removable? It comes off on mine, revealing just the metal rod.


----------



## HotIce

It is tight, as you do not want to be turning accidentally.
 Should not come off easily though, even if yes, it is removable.


----------



## beaver316

Ah so it is removable, thanks for confirming. It's a little strange, at times it comes off easy and at times it requires a lot of force.


----------



## StanD

beaver316 said:


> So I purchased this amp used a few days ago and got it today. Something I'm noticing is that the volume dial is very tight. I've read that it's tight in reviews, but I didn't expect it to be quite like this. Is it supposed to be really tight? Also is the volume pot meant to be removable? It comes off on mine, revealing just the metal rod.


 
 That's the knob that came off, not the potentiometer. The "metal rod" is the shaft of the potentiometer.


----------



## TrollDragon

Oh noes... not that knob discussion again...


----------



## Chris J

trolldragon said:


> Oh noes... not that knob discussion again...




They are talking about......oh, never mind.....


----------



## Evshrug

genjisleeps said:


> Hey guys I finally finished my portable setup with the e12 and I'm using the JVC HA-SZ2000. Its terrific, the sound is amazing and the bass is great. I'm planning on getting the Grado sr80e's in January. But what I'm wondering is what other headphones would you use with the fiio e12's.
> 
> My setup is this: Fiio X5 > HS6 Line out > Fiio e12 > JVC HA-SZ2000. What other headphones would you use that would sound great and bass would be booming?




I like to use my K712 and K612 with it. I find that with many open headphones, the OG E12 bass switch helps bass reach low-low-low but doesn't make it louder than the rest. I haven't heard it sound _bad_ with any headphone yet 

Also, woah the volume dial pops off for you guys? Mine's never felt like it was going to come up and away from the amp body! Sure, the volume pot is stiff and pretty hard to turn unless you apply torque at just the right angle (then it's easy to get fine adjustments).


----------



## beaver316

stand said:


> That's the knob that came off, not the potentiometer. The "metal rod" is the shaft of the potentiometer.


 
  
 Yup, still learning the lingo 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I did a search for removable knobs, but nothing came up


----------



## Allucid

Just bought the E12A. See how it goes.


----------



## Hal Rockwell

allucid said:


> Just bought the E12A. See how it goes.




Be sure to post your impressions. Do you have any other E12 model to compare it to?


----------



## Allucid

hal rockwell said:


> allucid said:
> 
> 
> > Just bought the E12A. See how it goes.
> ...



E12A was back ordered, didn't want to wait, cancelled the order and it turns out my money's disappeared, missing $250. It's a brilliant life.


----------



## Hal Rockwell

allucid said:


> E12A was back ordered, didn't want to wait, cancelled the order and it turns out my money's disappeared, missing $250. It's a brilliant life.




Sorry to hear that. Who did you order it from?


----------



## Chris J

allucid said:


> E12A was back ordered, didn't want to wait, cancelled the order and it turns out my money's disappeared, missing $250. It's a brilliant life.




Did you use PayPal?
You should have protection from issues like this.


----------



## HotIce

allucid said:


> E12A was back ordered, didn't want to wait, cancelled the order and it turns out my money's disappeared, missing $250. It's a brilliant life.


 
  
 What does it mean "disappeared"? Did you buy from SCAM-central?
 Wherever you bought from which even remotely resembling a legal business, you likely paid either with Paypal or with a Credit Card.
 You can file a complain, with any of them.
 If you bought from eBay or Amazon, you can file directly to them.
 You need to give the seller a little time to get back to you though.


----------



## JohnSantana

Yes, I must admit that Fiio E12 is a great mobile amp.


----------



## Allucid

hotice said:


> allucid said:
> 
> 
> > E12A was back ordered, didn't want to wait, cancelled the order and it turns out my money's disappeared, missing $250. It's a brilliant life.
> ...



I used instant bank transfer and paid to Addicted to Audio. 
I got a refund from the seller but because of instant bank transfer, the refund isn't instant and I have to wait 5-7 days without the amount in my bank account. If the amount doesn't show up in 5-7 days, then it'll take up to 180 days for the money to return to me. I can't chargeback via the bank transfer so I'm at the mercy of paypal.
Moral of the story - use a credit card with PayPal.


----------



## HotIce

Yes 
 Paypal tries always to steer you in using the bank account (I have both bank account and CC), for obvious reasons.
 I ordered my E12 from BHPhotoVideo. $129 shipped, very fast shipped.


----------



## Allucid

hotice said:


> Yes
> Paypal tries always to steer you in using the bank account (I have both bank account and CC), for obvious reasons.
> I ordered my E12 from BHPhotoVideo. $129 shipped, very fast shipped.



Mm, just learned that now but I will go to hell and back to get my money, even if I have to call them back every day.


----------



## K.T.

elephantaudio said:


>


 
  
  
 Very weird.
  
 I glanced at the ad in your post and for several seconds could have sworn it was written in German.
  
 What gives?


----------



## StanD

k.t. said:


> Very weird.
> 
> I glanced at the ad in your post and for several seconds could have sworn it was written in German.
> 
> What gives?


 
 More like a bad translation from Chinese to English. I can imagine what was intended.


----------



## roadrat

How will the E12 do when paired with Shure 535's and a Cowon J3 or Pono?


----------



## IpodHappy

I bought an E12 for my SE846 to see what the HF response of that IEM would be with a very low impedance output amplifier.  The E12 is advertised with an output impedance of < 0.1 ohms, which is great for an IEM with as low and non-linear an impedance as the SE846.  There was a noticeable increase in HF compared to my normal iPhone 6 output.  The rest of that story is better related in the SE846 thread.
  
 But, one characteristic of the E12 needs to be emphasized.  It's been mentioned earlier in this thread, but I didn't read it before purchasing the E12.  When the E12 is employed, the soundstage becomes almost 2D rather than 3D.  Instead of the soundstage enveloping your mind as presented at the output of the iPhone 6, it seems to be strung out along a line when listening through the E12.  I'm pretty sensitive to this loss of ambience, having spent a lot of time listening to effects boxes whose primary purpose was to add room acoustics to the sound.  I'm not sure what portion of the audio signal is changed by the amp to remove this 3D atmosphere.  Phase relations between the different frequencies?  Volumetric expansion of the signal (the opposite of compression)?
  
 Anyway, bear this in mind when purchasing this amp.
  
 Also, if you're going to get an E12 for IEMs, be aware that a new E12a has been released that's optimized for IEMs,  lowering the noise floor, improving the "blackness" of the amp.  With the older E12, there is a background of white noise that's about the same level as the noise output of the iPod 5.5g version; not objectionable, but present.  Too bad I bought the E12 about 10 weeks ago.  How quickly shiny toys can become obsolete.


----------



## harryrupam

gavinfabl said:


> I was at the Bristol Sound & Vision show yesterday. I had with me my E12 and iPod Classic. I was able to use it to listen to a number of different headphones including the top of the range Sennheiser HD700 and HD800, audio Technica ATH AD900 and AD1000 and some $700 Perfect Sound cans.
> 
> It wasn't the perfect listening conditions due to the noise of people and other gear but I was amazed at how well the E12 performed with every single headphone. The HD800 needed the gain adjusted. That can needs power.
> 
> And for those that have forgotten my review is on page 38 from memory on this thread.


 

 Hi gavinfabl
 I had a query, As you said before you tested HD700/800 with Fiio E12, can you tell me How do they perform? I'm planning to buy a Sennheiser HD650 along with Fiio X3 DAP and Fiio E12 amp... So I was curious if E12 will be able to drive the HD650s properly


----------



## Evshrug

It will probably be just fine, the E12 has very low distortion, low output impedance, and a pretty flat FR so it won't change the HD650's color.

A friend of mine just got the HD650. Day one he wasn't impressed, but since day 2 he hasn't wanted to listen to anything else.


----------



## HotIce

The E12 has 15V P2P swing. Should be able to give you ~120dB of pain through the HD-650, according to the 103dB @ 1V RMS HD specs.


----------



## harryrupam

Actually I'm in a dilemma of what Headphone to get....
 for DAP/DAC I'll be buying either Fiio X3 or Fiio X5
 and for amps = Either Fiio E12 or C&C BH2
 Headphone preference = HD650/HD700

 Now the point is,how would these components sum up?
 will a Fiio E12 be good enough to make HD650/HD700 shine & sing?
 (n.b. I don't want to get a desktop amp. I'll be using the whole rig as a portable solution for both desktop and just for listening in the home)


----------



## Shawn71

harryrupam said:


> Actually I'm in a dilemma of what Headphone to get....
> 
> for DAP/DAC I'll be buying either Fiio X3 or Fiio X5
> 
> ...




It wld be X5,E12 & HD600......600 is better than 650 not sure about 700 tho....I wld say just get some inputs from our fellow head-fi'ers pairing just X5 & 600s,that way you can save E12 cost a & same can be used for desktop setup, and invest on something else......


----------



## Shawn71

And yes E12 has more than enough juice to drive 600s and unaltered tonality.....


----------



## StanD

hotice said:


> The E12 has 15V P2P swing. Should be able to give you ~120dB of pain through the HD-650, according to the 103dB @ 1V RMS HD specs.


 
 15V p-p is 5.3025 VRMS which is +14.489614 dB or 117.489614 dB. Some folks might quible the small difference, trust me, it's plenty loud enough and most folks do not have recordings and an equipment chan that will handle it. Most recording have enough compression to make this meaningless, and many old recording have enough noise to compromise any DR. That said, at home I use my Schiit Asgard 2, and even though I tend to listen on the loud side. I do not turn up the volume enough to garner it's full power, even on peaks, using my HE-500's which are a little on the power hungry side of the curve.
 Some people make too much hay on power, they want more than they will ever use on peaks. Yes, if one happens to own a pair of HE-6's they're gonna need a serious amount of power, the rest of us, not as much.


----------



## fotis1972

I have a question, i have X5 and i hear the E12 with my focal spirit pro and i'm very very very IMPRESSED. more more more bassssssssssss, so the question is can i connect the headphone output of E12  with 3.5 jack to double rca with active speakers like audioengine a5+, or i can do these connection only from the line out of X5 without the E12 ?
  
 Thanks a lot


----------



## bms44974

fotis1972 said:


> I have a question, i have X5 and i hear the E12 with my focal spirit pro and i'm very very very IMPRESSED. more more more bassssssssssss, so the question is can i connect the headphone output of E12  with 3.5 jack to double rca with active speakers like audioengine a5+, or i can do these connection only from the line out of X5 without the E12 ?
> 
> Thanks a lot


 

 I have done both with X3, E12, and JBL305. I used X3 both as USB DAC and as source.
  
 Cheers... Brian


----------



## x RELIC x

fotis1972 said:


> I have a question, i have X5 and i hear the E12 with my focal spirit pro and i'm very very very IMPRESSED. more more more bassssssssssss, so the question is can i connect the headphone output of E12  with 3.5 jack to double rca with active speakers like audioengine a5+, or i can do these connection only from the line out of X5 without the E12 ?
> 
> Thanks a lot




Line out from X5 to a5 with 3.5mm to RCA works great! Done this myself.


----------



## nway

Has anyone used _both_ the E12 and the Magni or Vali with the following cans?:
 • HD 600
 • Fidelio X1
 • ATH-M50
 • MDR-V6


----------



## StanD

nway said:


> Has anyone used _both_ the E12 and the Magni or Vali with the following cans?:
> • HD 600
> • Fidelio X1
> • ATH-M50
> • MDR-V6


 
 I have all 3 amps and an HD600. You can't beat the E12 for portable. of all 3, when home,  I prefer the Magni.
 I also have an HE-500, The E12 can actually drive them and it's a portable amp. Again the Magni is top dog, but it can't go on the road like the E12.
 Between the Vali and Magni, I prefer the Magni. I've compared all 3, two at a time using an A/B switch with various headphones.


----------



## nway

stand said:


> I have all 3 amps and an HD600. You can't beat the E12 for portable. of all 3, when home,  I prefer the Magni.
> I also have an HE-500, The E12 can actually drive them and it's a portable amp. Again the Magni is top dog, but it can't go on the road like the E12.
> Between the Vali and Magni, I prefer the Magni. I've compared all 3, two at a time using an A/B switch with various headphones.


 

 Very interesting; I've been researching the Magni vs. Vali for the past several hours, and you're the first instance I've encountered of someone preferring the Magni over the Vali. Just curious, what sort of music are you listening to? Perhaps that's a factor that explains why one might prefer one over the other. I'm mainly prioritizing my listening experience for classical music, although I'll also be listening to rock, jazz, and pop.
  
 Would I be right to assume you think the Vali sounds better than the E12, with respect to the HD 600? Considering they're the same price, which would you consider a better buy?


----------



## fotis1972

ok thanks, but can i connect heafphone out from e12 to speakers,


----------



## x RELIC x

fotis1972 said:


> ok thanks, but can i connect heafphone out from e12 to speakers,




Of course you can, with the same cable. The only thing is you will be double amping by using the e12 with the a5+. This shouldn't be a big deal but some avoid it like the plague.


----------



## htr2d2

Fiio E12 for $99!
  
 The discount of $30 will end 12/5 at <time>.
  
 http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/968290-REG/fiio_e12_mont_blanc_pro.html
  
 I ordered one for my X1 and HE-400 cans. Now if I can just find a retailer in the USA with the Fiio HS12 (X1 stacking kit).
  
 Enjoy!


----------



## nway

(Never mind.)


----------



## waynes world

htr2d2 said:


> Fiio E12 for $99!
> 
> The discount of $30 will end 12/5 at <time>.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Good deal! Definitely works very well with the X1


----------



## hotdogseller

Got mine in the mail today, sounds great so far. Question about the gain switch, is it necessary (or recommended) for planars? I can get my mad dogs to a good volume level on standard gain


----------



## bms44974

I use standard gain for Etymotic ER4s and Sennheiser HD600s. I used high gain by accident one time and turned it off as quickly as possible.


----------



## hotdogseller

ok thanks, ER4S are my primary IEM too so thats good to know


----------



## thedude22

What do you use as your dac?


nway said:


> Very interesting; I've been researching the Magni vs. Vali for the past several hours, and you're the first instance I've encountered of someone preferring the Magni over the Vali. Just curious, what sort of music are you listening to? Perhaps that's a factor that explains why one might prefer one over the other. I'm mainly prioritizing my listening experience for classical music, although I'll also be listening to rock, jazz, and pop.
> 
> Would I be right to assume you think the Vali sounds better than the E12, with respect to the HD 600? Considering they're the same price, which would you consider a better buy?


----------



## nway

thedude22 said:


> What do you use as your dac?


 

 Modi


----------



## TrollDragon

nway said:


> Would I be right to assume you think the Vali sounds better than the E12, with respect to the HD 600? Considering they're the same price, which would you consider a better buy?


 
 One is a desktop amp and one is a portable amp. Why would you even consider a portable amp for dedicated desktop use?


----------



## nway

trolldragon said:


> One is a desktop amp and one is a portable amp. Why would you even consider a portable amp for dedicated desktop use?


 

 Because it's $50 cheaper and the portability could come in handy, should I need it. I also use a laptop as my desktop computer. I guess I'm just a lunatic.


----------



## TrollDragon

nway said:


> Because it's $50 cheaper and the portability could come in handy, should I need it. I also use a laptop as my desktop computer. I guess I'm just a lunatic.


 
 All good then, I was just curious.
  
 I use the E12 & E11K strictly as a portables. The E09K/E17 combo I use as my desktop unit with Line Out to the Little Dot MK IV.


----------



## htr2d2

nway said:


> Because it's $50 cheaper and the portability could come in handy, should I need it. I also use a laptop as my desktop computer. I guess I'm just a lunatic.


 

 Makes sense to me. I used a Fiio portable DAC/AMP for a couple years at home and for my laptop before I committed my savings to buy a bunch of Schiit audio stuff.


----------



## Chris J

I often use my FiiO E12 and X5 when I am eating breakfast, easier to take in and out of the dinner area than a desktop system!


----------



## Evshrug

trolldragon said:


> All good then, I was just curious.
> 
> I use the E12 & E11K strictly as a portables. The E09K/E17 combo I use as my desktop unit with Line Out to the Little Dot MK IV.




Wait... Do you sometimes use just the E17+E09 combo? Because you could just use the E17's line-out with the Little Dot. But anyway,sounds like you have 3 portable amp options... Yay options! I've read great things about the E11k, though I rarely listen portable anymore.


----------



## TrollDragon

evshrug said:


> Wait... Do you sometimes use just the E17+E09 combo? Because you could just use the E17's line-out with the Little Dot. But anyway,sounds like you have 3 portable amp options... Yay options! I've read great things about the E11k, though I rarely listen portable anymore.


 
 I do indeed use just the E09K/E17 combo quite often as the LD MK IV is an OTL amp and it will sometimes hum with lower impedance headphones. The E17 works perfectly with line out for the LD but you do need an E7 adapter to use it for Line Out.
  
 I started with the Audioengine D1 which has great DAC but a very low output amplifier and did not drive the DT880's properly without it's volume control around 90%, so the D1 was sent back for exchange and the E09K arrived.
  
 The E11K is a good little amplifier but has some strange design problems such as a very easy to move volume control and the I/O ports on the opposite side on the amp which is a PiTA using it in a belt pouch etc...


----------



## htr2d2

trolldragon said:


> The E11K is a good little amplifier but has some strange design problems such as a very easy to move volume control and the I/O ports on the opposite side on the amp which is a PiTA using it in a belt pouch etc...


 
 Agreed. I was very much tempted to buy the e11k over the e12 due to it being half the price, but the design and placement of the volume of the e11k was a concern. Besides, found the e12 on sale and it will push my planar cans without issue. Future proofing as well if I purchase cans that need a bit more oomph.
  
 Unrelated.. my e12 was to be delivered two days ago, but, apparently, UPS is having issues on the west coast of USA. As of today, we are being hit with a fairly substantial rain/wind storm--tree next door was blown over but it missed the house. Hopefully, they will be able to make delivery this week.


----------



## fotis1972

I just bought E12 and i'm really impressed with its sound,
 with X5 and Focal spirit pro, my questions is"
  
 What is the correct way for burn-in, just listen music with bass-boost off, gain at 0 or 16 or none of these,  and there is another a specific way.
  
 Thanks a lot and Happy Christmas!!!!!! with Health


----------



## TrollDragon

fotis1972 said:


> I just bought E12 and i'm really impressed with its sound,
> with X5 and Focal spirit pro, my questions is"
> 
> What is the correct way for burn-in, just listen music with bass-boost off, gain at 0 or 16 or none of these,  and there is another a specific way.
> ...


 
  
 What is the correct way for burn-in, just play listen enjoy your music!
  
 Play with all the settings and see what you like the best.


----------



## StanD

trolldragon said:


> What is the correct way for burn-in, just play listen enjoy your music!
> 
> Play with all the settings and see what you like the best.


 
 +1


----------



## x RELIC x

audiophilegeek said:


> How is the Mont Blanc E12 compared to the E17?




E12.........

More powerful, more transparent, more gain, great bass boost, good crossfeed. 

No treble control, no DAC, no optical or USB input. Line input only.


----------



## retskrad

I just compared the E12 with the built in amp in the iPad, and holy moly. Seems like todays consumer products has made external amps redundant, the e12 actually made the bass worse. Hats off to apple, and no more buying amps and dacs for me. Yay.


----------



## htr2d2

retskrad said:


> I just compared the E12 with the built in amp in the iPad, and holy moly. Seems like todays consumer products has made external amps redundant, the e12 actually made the bass worse. Hats off to apple, and no more buying amps and dacs for me. Yay.


 

 I am not going to comment on audio quality which may be subjective, but I have my doubts on the "amplifier" aspect. Did a quick Google hunt and wasn't finding specifications for the iPad's amp, however.


----------



## x RELIC x

retskrad said:


> I just compared the E12 with the built in amp in the iPad, and holy moly. Seems like todays consumer products has made external amps redundant, the e12 actually made the bass worse. Hats off to apple, and no more buying amps and dacs for me. Yay.




If you find you prefer the headphone output of the iPad better then that's great for you. However I'm curious to know what file format and quality you were listening to, how the music was produced, what was the e12 connected to and how it was connected, and what headphones/earphones you were using. 

That's a big statement you said there that doesn't make much sense in the realm of physics and the ability to drive a variety of headphones. The e12 is designed with only one thing in mind..... to amplify music, and it does it well (especially for the price). Also, the e12 should provide more dynamics in the music compared to the ipad's small amp and I've never found the bass or the bass boost to be deficient, especially compared to any of my apple products. 

Im not saying the iPad sounds bad, just honest curiosity here.


----------



## retskrad

I backpedal from my statement that the schiit lyr made the bass worse. I think what I he are what actually decay in the bass, while the with the amp, the driver had control. I heard more rumble and driver movement without the amp.
  
 I tried the same with my DT990, and hell yes, its definitely decay. On louder volume, the with the lyr or without the lyr its similar.  Maybe I'm the kind of guy that wants some decay in the bass, who knows.


----------



## Chris J

retskrad said:


> I just compared the E12 with the built in amp in the iPad, and holy moly. Seems like todays consumer products has made external amps redundant, the e12 actually made the bass worse. Hats off to apple, and no more buying amps and dacs for me. Yay.




There is the possibility that the E12 is driving your headphones properly and now you can actually hear how bad the iPad headphone jack really is.
Or not.


----------



## htr2d2

chris j said:


> There is the possibility that the E12 is driving your headphones properly and now you can actually hear how bad the iPad headphone jack really is.
> Or not.


 

 Good point. Had not thought of that aspect.


----------



## The Walrus

retskrad said:


> I just compared the E12 with the built in amp in the iPad, and holy moly. Seems like todays consumer products has made external amps redundant, the e12 actually made the bass worse. Hats off to apple, and no more buying amps and dacs for me. Yay.


 
 1 - How did you connect E12 to your ipad? Line-out cable or earphone jack?
 2 - Did you turn off all the sound effects? EQ, bass boost etc. if applicable) They will cause distortion.
  
 Even if you did both of the above, E12 is a very transparent amp with a very low distortion level and an outstanding frequency response. But, if you are used to the sound effects on your ipad like EQ, you won't be able to get them with E12 or any simple headphone amp for that matter. All you'll find is a bass boost.


----------



## htr2d2

So a brief and subjective review of the pairing of:
  

 1. Fiio X1 Lossless Audio Player with Fiio HS12 Stacker
 2. Fiio L16 Cable
 3. Fiio E12 Amplifier with gain and bass boost off
 4. Hifiman HE-400 Headphones with the velour pads
  
 Lows:
 The only surprise with the E12 in comparison to my Schiit Audio Lyr 2 was the bass sounded more fun. Punchy? I may need to listen longer but I like it!
  
 ===
 Just completed a four hour listening session of a mix of old rock, electronic, and female vocalists. The bass is satisfying and not over the top in my opinion. However, if you want the bass in your face 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





with thumpy music, the bass boost is pretty awesome. Admittedly, I was a bit confused on how the bass boost worked but appears to be +5db from 20 with a roll off from 70 or 80 hz as show here by Fiio.
 ===
  
 Mids:
 The mids were acceptable but a bit recessed. Representational of the HE-400's v-sharped sound signature. I do sometimes desire more emphasis of vocals, but that not a shortcoming of the E12 but the HE-400.
  
 Highs:
 No surprises here, either. The E12 represented the HE-400 treble sound signature.
 (Regarding treble fatigue, I owned the Grado SR325i headphones which I found to be *very* fatiguing, then moved to the HE-400. So, I may not be very good at evaluating the HE-400's 8k spike that others find so annoying.)
  
 Summary:
 The E12 pairing with the HE-400 is reasonably neutral with some emphasis on the lows. The E12 is a bit large in size relative to the X1 so not very pocket friendly--the X5 and E12 are perfectly mated as seen here. The E11 or E11K would be a better pocket and wallet fit at $60. However, I love the sound of the E12 and was fortunate enough to find it on sale from $129 to $99 USD (street $129).

 Thank you!
  
 ===
 12/24/2014 16:30 PST: Updated to Lows and Summary sections.


----------



## StanD

htr2d2 said:


> So a brief and subjective review of the pairing of:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I don't think either version of the E11 has enough muscle for the HE-400. The E12 can even push my HE-500's.


----------



## htr2d2

stand said:


> I don't think either version of the E11 has enough muscle for the HE-400. The E12 can even push my HE-500's.


 

 Agreed. E11K might work for most source content, but..
  
 Why risk it? Besides, I wanted to future proof so I could update to the next gen HE-500s.


----------



## StanD

htr2d2 said:


> Agreed. E11K might work, for most source content, but..
> 
> Why risk it? Besides, I wanted to future proof so I could update to the next gen HE-500s.


 
 The E11K can deliver 270 mW at 32 Ohms. That's not going to be able to handle the HE-500's. The E12 can deliver 850 mW at 32 Ohms, just enough to get it done, 1W would be just right. For a small portable, 850 mW is rather good.


----------



## x RELIC x

htr2d2 said:


> So a brief and subjective review of the pairing of:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Them are some mighty fine praises for the e12 compared to a powerful tube amp from some well respected Schiit. I love my e12, best bargain out there in my opinion.


----------



## htr2d2

x relic x said:


> Them are some mighty fine praises for the e12 compared to a powerful tube amp from some well respected Schiit. I love my e12, best bargain out there in my opinion.


 
  
 I agree.
  
 In perusing Fiio's website, I read that you can use current mobile, 5V = 1A, and tablet, 5V = 2A at 3 hours, (recommended) chargers. Awesome! It killed me to wait for a full charge using a laptop USB the first time.


----------



## manishex

Recently, the slight movement of my LOD cable plugged into the line in socket causes the left channel to flow into my right channel making it very loud. The connection is very firm, nothing is loose. Unfortunately I bought mine second hand so no access to any warranty. The problem persisted with different LODs, DAPs and headphones so I know its a problem with the line in socket.
 Is this problem easily fixable by opening it up?


----------



## trancefiend

Hi, brand new E12 owner (as of today).  Before using it for the first time, I charged it, and the red light blinked (slow fade on and off) while it charged.  I came back a couple of hours later, and the red light was off, so I figured great, full charge.
  
 Tried it out for about 45 minutes, and the red light started blinking (with the amp on while playing music, not connected to the charger).  According to the owner's manual that means the battery is running low.  That shouldn't happen after only 45 minutes of use, should it?  (I was driving some Audio Technica ATH-WS99's, so nothing with crazy impedance,)  I did have the bass boost on and I was cranking it pretty good most of the 45 minutes.
  
 So here's the weird thing - I turn it off, then plug it into the charger, and no red light at all (not blinking or solid).  Shouldn't the red light be doing the slow fade blink to indicate it's charging?  (I double checked to make sure the charger was working, by connecting a phone to it, and confirmed the charger isn't the problem.)


----------



## Joe Bloggs

Can you try it with another charger, a computer USB port and/or another cable?


----------



## waynes world

All of your assumptions of how it should be working are correct. Something is off with your unit.


----------



## Joe Bloggs

manishex said:


> Recently, the slight movement of my LOD cable plugged into the line in socket causes the left channel to flow into my right channel making it very loud. The connection is very firm, nothing is loose. Unfortunately I bought mine second hand so no access to any warranty. The problem persisted with different LODs, DAPs and headphones so I know its a problem with the line in socket.
> Is this problem easily fixable by opening it up?




Does this happen with regular line in cables (not apple LODs) too?


----------



## waynes world

Unrelated I think, but I greatly prefer charging my e12 with my samsung tab 8 2amp charger. Charges it way quicker and also doesn't introduce noise when listening while charging.


----------



## trancefiend

joe bloggs said:


> Can you try it with another charger, a computer USB port and/or another cable?


 
  
  


waynes world said:


> Unrelated I think, but I greatly prefer charging my e12 with my samsung tab 8 2amp charger. Charges it way quicker and also doesn't introduce noise when listening while charging.


 
  
 Thanks for the ideas.  So the charger I was using was a generic wall wart micro USB charger that came with a cheap Motorola Moto G phone.    I looked at it, and it's only a 550mA charger.  I plugged a USB to micro USB cable into a 2.1A iPad mini charger, and now the red light is doing the fade blink (or "respiration lamp effect" as the manual calls it) 
  
 When the E12 reaches full charge, should the red light be on solid, or off?


----------



## bms44974

trancefiend said:


> Thanks for the ideas.  So the charger I was using was a generic wall wart micro USB charger that came with a cheap Motorola Moto G phone.    I looked at it, and it's only a 550mA charger.  I plugged a USB to micro USB cable into a 2.1A iPad mini charger, and now the red light is doing the fade blink (or "respiration lamp effect" as the manual calls it)
> 
> When the E12 reaches full charge, should the red light be on solid, or off?


 

 should stay on solid red.


----------



## manishex

joe bloggs said:


> Does this happen with regular line in cables (not apple LODs) too?


 
 Hi Joe, yea I tried with a oyaide cable with my X5, it seems to be fine with high gain now after pushing the reset button. But low gain is still problematic.


----------



## Chowderhead72

I currently use an iPad or IPhone6+ connected to an E18 and Ultrasone 900pros. I'm using the E18 as a line in amp only but I get a lot of cellular interference will this be any better with the E12? S there a better amp for my situation at a similar (less than $300) price point. I use spotify so airplane mode is not a viable option.


----------



## HotIce

My home "couch" setup, is Spotify -> WiFi -> iPhone -> E12, and I get no interference or noise almost at all.


----------



## The Walrus

chowderhead72 said:


> I currently use an iPad or IPhone6+ connected to an E18 and Ultrasone 900pros. I'm using the E18 as a line in amp only but I get a lot of cellular interference will this be any better with the E12? S there a better amp for my situation at a similar (less than $300) price point. I use spotify so airplane mode is not a viable option.


 
 That's strange... I just tried E12 with Xperia Z1  and no noticeable EM interference even when the phone rings.


----------



## Chowderhead72

I hope the E12 is isolated better than the E18. I find the E18 unusable for my situation.


----------



## paulguru

i dont understand, this is sufficient to drive perfectly an headphone like AKG Q701 ?


----------



## Chowderhead72

the walrus said:


> That's strange... I just tried E12 with Xperia Z1  and no noticeable EM interference even when the phone rings.




The E12 arrived this morning and just finished charging. Wow! Zero interference! Awesome product! I should have bought this from the start. I thought I would use the DAC function of the E18 a lot more but after jumping off of the Android ship and going back to Apple the DAC section was useless to me.


----------



## Chowderhead72

Now what does the "Crosstalk" slider do?


----------



## htr2d2

chowderhead72 said:


> Now what does the "Crosstalk" slider do?


 

 I, believe, you meant "crossfeed" which is a switch on the E12.
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/233288/what-is-crossfeed
  


> Crossfeed is when you hear the music in a less stereo and more mono way.
> Some people think that headphones seperate the stereo too much so a crossfeed mechanism can make the stereo seperation less obvious and more nataural as if you are listening in front of speakers.


----------



## paulguru

paulguru said:


> i dont understand, this is sufficient to drive perfectly an headphone like AKG Q701 ?


 
 anyone ?


----------



## HotIce

paulguru said:


> anyone ?



 

I have never tried, but the E12 power figures, with the amp ICs powered by a +-11.2V rails, makes me believe it will have no issues with those.
With 105db efficiency, and a maximum input power of 200mW, the E12 is about than 2x its max.


----------



## htr2d2

paulguru said:


> anyone ?


 

 I am using it with my T50RP cans, 50+ ohm impedance headphones, on low gain, so you should be fine.


----------



## peter123

paulguru said:


> anyone ?




Yes it has enough power for the Q's.

Edit: This is a great site:
http://www.audiobot9000.com/match/akg/q701/with/fiio/mont-blanc-e12

My answer is from personal experience though.


----------



## Chris J

paulguru said:


> i dont understand, this is sufficient to drive perfectly an headphone like AKG Q701 ?




The E12 has absolutely no problem driving a Q701 headphone. 
I own both and have used them together many times.


----------



## paulguru

But this is only amplificator ? no DAC ?


----------



## htr2d2

paulguru said:


> But this is only amplificator ? no DAC ?


 

 The E12 is an amplifier only. No DAC.
  
 If you are looking for a DAC+AMP combo, Fiio offer several but the amplification is lower than the E12 last I looked.


----------



## HotIce

In one setup I use a FIIO X3 as DAC+Player, strapped over a FIIO E12 as amp.
I bought the X3 more as player than DAC actually, but I find myself mostly listening Spotify these days, and I like the X3 DAC a lot.


----------



## CountryBoy

As somebody whose owned the Fiio E12 for 6 months and paired it with an iPod (using LOD) and NAD VISO HP50 headphones, I've gotta say - What a great value this amp is - lots of drive, and very transparent.


----------



## htr2d2

hotice said:


> In one setup I use a FIIO X3 as DAC+Player, strapped over a FIIO E12 as amp.
> I bought the X3 more as player than DAC actually, but I find myself mostly listening Spotify these days, and I like the X3 DAC a lot.


 

 I am using the X1. Wish I had kicked out the $ for the X3 or X5, but the E12 is rocking the X1 just fine.


----------



## carrion crow

htr2d2 said:


> I am using the X1. Wish I had kicked out the $ for the X3 or X5, but the E12 is rocking the X1 just fine.


 
  
 Hi,
  
 For ~100€, do you think I must go for a X1 or a E12 paired with my Cowon D2+ ?
  
 I have a Beyerdynamic DT880 250Ω (my cowon can't handle it), a sennheiser PX100-II and Jays S-jays.
  
 Later, I think I will sell the device (X1 or E12) and buy a X3II.


----------



## HotIce

I am using the E12 with the DT880 250 Ohm. The E12 is at no more than 40% volume, when connected with the DT880.
PLENTY of power.


----------



## carrion crow

hotice said:


> I am using the E12 with the DT880 250 Ohm. The E12 is at no more than 40% volume, when connected with the DT880.
> PLENTY of power.


 
 Thanks.
  
 I'm going to test it in a shop tomorrow.


----------



## htr2d2

carrion crow said:


> Hi,
> 
> For ~100€, do you think I must go for a X1 or a E12 paired with my Cowon D2+ ?
> 
> ...


 

 You should be happy with the E12. For a solid state component, it sounds pretty good.


----------



## carrion crow

I listened to the E12 yesterday. It's powerfull enough to drive my DT880. But the sound with my cowon D2+ is not as good as Fiio X1 + E12. So I didn't buy anything, I will think about it a little more.
  
 Thank you.


----------



## bzippy

X3 user here. Currently using a Cayin C5 on trial basis but also awaiting delivery of a used E12 v1. My only complaint on the C5 is that the bass boost is more than my HD600's need on most recordings (but not all). Also thinking about having a current production E12 sent over to be part of the Great Bass Boost Shootout 2015. Thoughts?


----------



## waynes world

bzippy said:


> X3 user here. Currently using a Cayin C5 on trial basis but also awaiting delivery of a used E12 v1. My only complaint on the C5 is that the bass boost is more than my HD600's need on most recordings (but not all). Also thinking about having a current production E12 sent over to be part of the Great Bass Boost Shootout 2015. Thoughts?


 
  
 I have the E12v1, so I'm for sure interested in the comparison with the C5 (and the production E12 if you can get it).


----------



## Vidmaven

waynes world said:


> I have the E12v1, so I'm for sure interested in the comparison with the C5 (and the production E12 if you can get it).


+1. My v.1 E12 has served me well for the past 2 years. It can power every can I throw at it. I am interested to see how it stacks up to the C5.


----------



## waynes world

vidmaven said:


> +1. My v.1 E12 has served me well for the past 2 years. It can power every can I throw at it. I am interested to see how it stacks up to the C5.


 
  
 Yeah, and the v1 bass boost is pretty unique as far as I am aware. I probably won't replace mine until it dies on me. But maybe bzippy's impressions will change that!


----------



## bzippy

well i couldn't resist and ordered a new E12 to compare against the C5 and E12 v1. i'll let you know how it goes.


----------



## waynes world

bzippy said:


> well i couldn't resist and ordered a new E12 to compare against the C5 and E12 v1. i'll let you know how it goes.


 
  
 Cool! The X3 is a slightly warm source, is it not? If it is, then your impressions of the X3/E12 pairing will also be interesting because I find that I like the E12 best paired with neutral or neutral-bright sources to compensate for the E12's warm leaning tendencies.


----------



## bzippy

waynes world said:


> Cool! The X3 is a slightly warm source, is it not? If it is, then your impressions of the X3/E12 pairing will also be interesting because I find that I like the E12 best paired with neutral or neutral-bright sources to compensate for the E12's warm leaning tendencies.


 

 I think the X3 gets that rep from the HO, which is most definitely smooth and i must say makes for a very pleasant listen when that mood strikes (but not always). however i have been exclusively amping the LO signal, and that has a very lively and vivid signature. i might even call it bright. at least this is how it presents thru my HD600's. so your input is interesting because smoothing just the tiniest bit off the top end might actually be welcomed.
  
 and of course i am also very curious about how the other aspects of the E12 and C5 compare (like mid/vocal prominence, unboosted lows, detail, separation and stage). as for width of stage i have every expectation that the C5 will be the easy winner from what i've read. i only hope the E12 does at least a respectable job with this, because if it's as confined & narrow as, say, the X3's HO then the game might be over right there, no matter how perfect its frequency balance and bass boost. the C5 really drops you right in the room. it's an engaging illusion. with my eyes closed i often feel my eyes moving in an effort to follow the sound.


----------



## waynes world

^ Interesting stuff. Looking forward to your findings


----------



## HotIce

As owner of an E12, I am deeply tempted to get a C5, if only to perform an in depth electronic circuit analysis, to highlight how different they really are from a circuit and component POV.


----------



## manishex

Would the C5 do well with the he400i? I wonder when we will see an e12k so that I can use low gain as high gain takes away too much bass body for me.


----------



## StanD

I wonder how much about soundstage in an amp is expectation, especially with the E12. In an amp the only thing that can trully affect soundstage is channel separation (Crosstalk) which is for the E12 is higher than one can perceive, especially when the music is playing. FiiO rates E12 crosstalk at > 65 dB. If an anp had particularily bad treble that can affect the perception of soundstage. I don't think that the E12 is bad at treble either.
 It sounds rather good, even compared to my desktop amp.


----------



## htr2d2

stand said:


> I wonder how much about soundstage in an amp is expectation, especially with the E12. In an amp the only thing that can trully affect soundstage is channel separation (Crosstalk) which is for the E12 is higher than one can perceive, especially when the music is playing. FiiO rates E12 crosstalk at > 65 dB. If an anp had particularily bad treble that can affect the perception of soundstage. I don't think that the E12 is bad at treble either.
> It sounds rather good, even compared to my desktop amp.


 

 I agree. The E12 is not perfect, but pretty darn happy with it in comparison to my Schitt Lyr 2.


----------



## StanD

htr2d2 said:


> I agree. The E12 is not perfect, but pretty darn happy with it in comparison to my Schitt Lyr 2.


 
 It compares well to my Asgard 2 as well. It is very capable with HD600's as well as HE-500's.


----------



## x RELIC x

It's not in the same league as my desktop unit but for the price I love the e12. So much power on tap for planars and clean as well. Bass boost is simply fun and easy to switch on or defeat if wanted. Best deal in audio if you ask me.


----------



## bzippy

this is all good to hear. i'm not an amp expert by any stretch (the C5 is the only one i've heard so far) so i have no idea how an amp contributes to things like staging and detail. if that stuff happens more in the dac stage then all the better.
  
 i admit i am really hoping the E12 is the winner for my needs, and specifically the current production model so i don't have to bother with seeking out another rare v1 version if replacement is ever needed. i really like the idea of a matchy stacking rig.


----------



## conquerator2

I think the C5 is too close to it though, and it is IMO a sonically superior product. YMMV of course. I preferred it off the get go tonality wise.


----------



## Chris J

stand said:


> I wonder how much about soundstage in an amp is expectation, especially with the E12. In an amp the only thing that can trully affect soundstage is channel separation (Crosstalk) which is for the E12 is higher than one can perceive, especially when the music is playing. FiiO rates E12 crosstalk at > 65 dB. If an anp had particularily bad treble that can affect the perception of soundstage. I don't think that the E12 is bad at treble either.
> It sounds rather good, even compared to my desktop amp.




I would argue that is a question for an audio amplifier designer.
I can't see why anyone on this thread (including me, BTW) would be able to answer the question with any expertise.
Soundstage may also be affected by SNR.


----------



## StanD

chris j said:


> I would argue that is a question for an audio amplifier designer.
> I can't see why anyone on this thread (including me, BTW) would be able to answer the question with any expertise.
> Soundstage may also be affected by SNR.


 
 I am an EE. SNR does not affect soundstage, unless the noise was so bad that you would never find any mention of the product on any forums. Treble response may affect one's perception of soundstage, but that would be more of how your headphones sound. I'd say that most aspects of soundstage, other than treble, are also related to one's headphones.


----------



## Evshrug

stand said:


> I am an EE. SNR does not affect soundstage, unless the noise was so bad that you would never find any mention of the product on any forums. Treble response may affect one's perception of soundstage, but that would be more of how your headphones sound. I'd say that most aspects of soundstage, other than treble, are also related to one's headphones.



Darker/brighter treble might be part of the soundstage equation (the E12 has a slight lift in the high treble), but I think it's fair to say that human-detectable noise (S:N) obscures some of the cues that help us hear the more subtle room reflections and relative distance... and a myriad of other small things that add up. In addition to the headphone, a good amp/DAC system can make a noticable difference in bringing out the potential soundstage of a headphone.

Well whatever the cause, the E12 produced a bit less soundstage width than my best amps, but that didn't much bother me since I was using a Q701, known for having a very broad soundstage in the first place.

(And yes, I think the E12+Q701 is a good combo, read my review in my signature)

(And I failed out of calc and thus the ME program, though I aced physics so maybe one day I'll take calc again to spite my old calc teacher)


----------



## Chris J

stand said:


> I am an EE. SNR does not affect soundstage, unless the noise was so bad that you would never find any mention of the product on any forums. Treble response may affect one's perception of soundstage, but that would be more of how your headphones sound. I'd say that most aspects of soundstage, other than treble, are also related to one's headphones.




But you're not an audio amplifier designer.
Do you have anything to back this up?


----------



## TrollDragon

Sunday... Sunday... Sunday...​ MMA EE Battle Royale​ No holds barred full contact event.​ Even the BIBLE might actually come into play.​  ​ ​  ​  ​ Your ticket buys you the WHOLE SEAT... BUT you will only be needing the EDGE!​


----------



## StanD

stand said:


> I am an EE. SNR does not affect soundstage, unless the noise was so bad that you would never find any mention of the product on any forums. Treble response may affect one's perception of soundstage, but that would be more of how your headphones sound. I'd say that most aspects of soundstage, other than treble, are also related to one's headphones.


 
  
  


chris j said:


> But you're not an audio amplifier designer.
> Do you have anything to back this up?


 
 I've designed Electronic Musical Instruments and Synthesizers when they were all analog as when they were essentially analog computers. I've also designed circuits used in professional recording equipment as well as sensitive instrumentation systems, ADC (Analog to Digital Converters) as well as DACs. Now I write software, when I was an EE I was a Chief EE and had a staff of EEs working for me. I might know a thing or two about the subject matter.


----------



## StanD

evshrug said:


> Darker/brighter treble might be part of the soundstage equation (the E12 has a slight lift in the high treble), but I think it's fair to say that human-detectable noise (S:N) obscures some of the cues that help us hear the more subtle room reflections and relative distance... and a myriad of other small things that add up. In addition to the headphone, a good amp/DAC system can make a noticable difference in bringing out the potential soundstage of a headphone.
> 
> Well whatever the cause, the E12 produced a bit less soundstage width than my best amps, but that didn't much bother me since I was using a Q701, known for having a very broad soundstage in the first place.
> 
> ...


 
 Can you hear noise in your E12 when music is playing, even at low volumes? Probably not. The E12's S/N is pretty low, not enough to cause a problem unless you are listening with very sesnitive IEMs and the volume is turned up without music playing, which shouldn't affect the soundstage when listening at normal levels.
 I've A/B'd the E12 using a switch and didn't find the treble off by enough to affect soundstage. Excess treble can give false cues and an inaccurate soundstage, but that's usually due to headphones or excessive EQ (if one uses EQ). If one turns on the Basss Boost switch, the trebles will seem to be recessed due to the relative change in tone. The FR of the E12 is flat beyond a human's ability to hear any difference. I wonder how much of this treble perception of the E12 is due to expectation as we are complicated creatures, our thoughts affect our perceptions.
 Edit: Study your calc, my first professor sucked, he wrote the book we used, so I bought another book that made sense and learned from that so that I could do his homework and take my tests without any panic.


----------



## StanD

trolldragon said:


> Sunday... Sunday... Sunday...​ MMA EE Battle Royale​ No holds barred full contact event.​ Even the BIBLE might actually come into play.​  ​  ​
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> ...


 
 You are such an instigator.


----------



## TrollDragon

stand said:


> You are such an instigator.


----------



## StanD

trolldragon said:


>


 
 I wonder how many folks use music to listen to their equipment rather than use their equipment to listen to music?


----------



## TrollDragon

stand said:


> I wonder how many folks use music to listen to their equipment rather than use their equipment to listen to music?


 

 I enjoy my music through the E12 for headphones like my DT880's and T50RP's that always benefit from a little bit over power behind them. I use the E11K with my C3 since the output of it only drives the most efficient of headphones and IEM's.
  
 What I really like is the analog volume control on the units over the digital volume control on the C3 or X3. The E11K's control is not dampened and turns way too easily but that is another story.
  
 It's all about the Knob Feel...

  
  
 You mean there are people here who only listen to their equipment? Would those be the residents of the Sound Science Asylum?


----------



## StanD

trolldragon said:


> I enjoy my music through the E12 for headphones like my DT880's and T50RP's that always benefit from a little bit over power behind them. I use the E11K with my C3 since the output of it only drives the most efficient of headphones and IEM's.
> 
> What I really like is the analog volume control on the units over the digital volume control on the C3 or X3. The E11K's control is not dampened and turns way too easily but that is another story.
> 
> ...




 I prefer analog potentiometers as well. Or digitally controlled analog controls that use switched resistors to attenuate the signal.
 I think many in the Sound Science forum listen to music and try to dispell myths which many times are harbored by those who listen to their imaginations. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 At the end of the day, I want to enjoy listening to music. In fact that's what I'd like to do at any time of day.


----------



## Chris J

stand said:


> I've designed Electronic Musical Instruments and Synthesizers when they were all analog as when they were essentially analog computers. I've also designed circuits used in professional recording equipment as well as sensitive instrumentation systems, ADC (Analog to Digital Converters) as well as DACs. Now I write software, when I was an EE I was a Chief EE and had a staff of EEs working for me. I might know a thing or two about the subject matter.




Then obviously you know more about that than 99% of the Head Fi-ers.
Even the self appointed experts....LOL! :rolleyes:

But you still haven't answered the question.
Agreed, SNR probably has very little to do with soundstage.
But how do you explain away a vinyl record, the whole system may have approx. 30 dB of channel separation, but some recordings can still exhibit a tremendous amount of soundstage depth and layering.

If you write software...sorry about your luck....:wink_face:


----------



## Chris J

trolldragon said:


>




Never mind, this is all off topic.


----------



## StanD

chris j said:


> Then obviously you know more about that than 99% of the Head Fi-ers.
> Even the self appointed experts....LOL!
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Perhaps it's not the vinyl but instead the character of the recording. Phase differences between the channels of the elements of an instrument's recording can give tremendous spacial cues. Isn't this what 3D processors, software or hardware try to do? I'd bet any CDs made from the same masters would exhibit similar character.
 I can't complain about software as I've had a wonderful time working at Bell Laboratories when it was owned by AT&T and stil at its height. There's far less EE work in the USA as once before, Luckily I learned my CS before that began to dry up. There used to be a time when much of the best commercial audio Schiit, TVs and so on was designed and made in the USA, this can no longer be said. Now it's a handful of expensive boutique products and there is still that lone wolf Schiit.


----------



## StanD

chris j said:


> It's all in your head, Charles.
> I am aware that Stan is not a guy who says he's an expert because he used to work in a stereo store or his wife is a pharmacist who read an article on placebo, or some other refugee for the SS Ayslum, etc


 
 So now my wife was a drug dealer.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Schiit, I never knew, I swear.


----------



## Chris J

stand said:


> So now my wife was a drug dealer.:eek:  Schiit, I never knew, I swear.




That wasn't directed at you. 
I have no idea what you wife does for a living!


----------



## Chris J

stand said:


> Perhaps it's not the vinyl but instead the character of the recording. Phase differences between the channels of the elements of an instrument's recording can give tremendous spacial cues. Isn't this what 3D processors, software or hardware try to do? I'd bet any CDs made from the same masters would exhibit similar character.
> I can't complain about software as I've had a wonderful time working at Bell Laboratories when it was owned by AT&T and stil at its height. There's far less EE work in the USA as once before, Luckily I learned my CS before that began to dry up. There used to be a time when much of the best commercial audio Schiit, TVs and so on was designed and made in the USA, this can no longer be said. Now it's a handful of expensive boutique products and there is still that lone wolf Schiit.




Sure, it's inherent to the recording.
But it puzzles me that a vinyl system can have a poor separation spec but still reproduce a big soundstage.
I've worked as an EE for many years, but my work experience is not too applicable in this case (reproducing a soundstage, why some equipment can, other equipment can't).
I used to work for a Telecom equipment manufacturer, we designed the power systems for the COs and OP..


----------



## StanD

stand said:


> So now my wife was a drug dealer.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
  


chris j said:


> That wasn't directed at you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Heck, until now, I thought I knew.


----------



## StanD

chris j said:


> Sure, it's inherent to the recording.
> But it puzzles me that a vinyl system can have a poor separation spec but still reproduce a big soundstage.
> I've worked as an EE for many years, but my work experience is not too applicable in this case (reproducing a soundstage, why some equipment can, other equipment can't).
> I used to work for a Telecom equipment manufacturer, we designed the power systems for the COs and OP..


 
 What equipment can't? As far as reproduction goes, I think one's heaphones have the greatest hand in it.
 At Bell Labs I worked with both analog and digital communications. They had people really smart people there that happened to be very smart. It was like working at a university doing reaearch and everyone was family. I really miss it. The work was great. I got to write part of a real time operating system for multiprocessing hardware and do many other fun things.


----------



## x RELIC x

On the topic of separation and quality sound with vinyl would it not be because of the nature of the medium necessitating good dynamic range in the recording to be pressed to the vinyl? When the master plate wears down too much and the individual grooves are going flat it needs to be replaced as the grooves will no longer play well with the cartridge. This would be similar to clamping in the digital world.

I mean with digital files and CDs it's more than easy to compress dynamic range in the music to boost perceived loudness to sell to the young ones, but this kills all sense of nuance and subtle texture which is what brings about the life in a recording. 

With that said I feel the e12 is a fairly boring transparent amp which I prefer. Just boost the signal I say and let the rest of the chain dictate the sonic qualities, for good or bad.


----------



## Chris J

stand said:


> What equipment can't? As far as reproduction goes, I think one's heaphones have the greatest hand in it.
> At Bell Labs I worked with both analog and digital communications. They had people really smart people there that happened to be very smart. It was like working at a university doing reaearch and everyone was family. I really miss it. The work was great. I got to write part of a real time operating system for multiprocessing hardware and do many other fun things.




I've heard a lot of stereo systems that have almost no soundstage depth.

I've always worked alongside a bunch of morons.
They are called salesmen.
They think they know everything and never shut up.

What keeps me sane is that I work with a bunch of people who do know what is really going on.
They are called the engineering department but are typicaly verbally challenged.


----------



## Chris J

x relic x said:


> On the topic of separation and quality sound with vinyl would it not be because of the nature of the medium necessitating good dynamic range in the recording to be pressed to the vinyl? When the master plate wears down too much and the individual grooves are going flat it needs to be replaced as the grooves will no longer play well with the cartridge. This would be similar to clamping in the digital world.
> 
> I mean with digital files and CDs it's more than easy to compress dynamic range in the music to boost perceived loudness to sell to the young ones, but this kills all sense of nuance and subtle texture which is what brings about the life in a recording.
> 
> With that said I feel the e12 is a fairly boring transparent amp which I prefer. Just boost the signal I say and let the rest of the chain dictate the sonic qualities, for good or bad.




You can compress the dynamic range of a digital recording or an analog recording.
It makes no difference.
In this barbaric age we live in, most cheap vinyl pressings are created from a CD master.
The vinyl mastering wearing out is a different process that compressing the dynamic range of a digital recording.


----------



## x RELIC x

chris j said:


> You can compress the dynamic range of a digital recording or an analog recording.
> It makes no difference.
> In this barbaric age we live in, most cheap vinyl pressings are created from a CD master.
> The vinyl mastering wearing out is a different process that compressing the dynamic range of a digital recording.




I'm fully aware it's obviously a different process. Just making an analogy. I didn't know that most current vinyl pressings came from CD masters. That's really too bad. So the marketing has reared its ugly head once again.


----------



## Chris J

x relic x said:


> I'm fully aware it's obviously a different process. Just making an analogy. I didn't know that most current vinyl pressings came from CD masters. That's really too bad. So the marketing has reared its ugly head once again.




The premium stuff like Analogue Productions, Music Matters, MFSL, the new Led Zepp and Beatles remasters would either be mastered from an analog master or a high bit rate digital master.

Limited runs by independent artists are typically mastered from the CD.

On the whole, you get what you pay for.
Except when you get free X5 custom firmware! Like Plasma and Tesla...:tongue_smile:


----------



## StanD

chris j said:


> I've heard a lot of stereo systems that have almost no soundstage depth.
> 
> I've always worked alongside a bunch of morons.
> They are called salesmen.
> ...


 
 I've heard the same, assuming you meant a speaker system, but many times it is either, bad placement of speakers or room acoustics. Heck things can sound great, move over a foot and it goes to hell. The only enemy of a good headphone setup is earwax.
 Not all engineers are vebally challenged, this is a new age.


----------



## Chris J

stand said:


> I've heard the same, assuming you meant a speaker system, but many times it is either, bad placement of speakers or room acoustics. Heck things can sound great, move over a foot and it goes to hell. The only enemy of a good headphone setup is earwax.
> Not all engineers are vebally challenged, this is a new age.




Not all engineers are verbally challenged, that's true, unfortunately they are the ones who get their MBAs and turn into morons, or become salesmen!


----------



## StanD

chris j said:


> Not all engineers are verbally challenged, that's true, unfortunately they are the ones who get their MBAs and turn into morons, or become salesmen!


 
 Q: What's the difference between a computer salesman and a used car saleman?
 A: A used car saleman knows that he's lying. No offence intended to used car saleman


----------



## Chris J

stand said:


> Q: What's the difference between a computer salesman and a used car saleman?
> A: A used car saleman knows that he's lying. No offence intended to used car saleman




I'm reporting this post to the moderator.
It is offensive to used car salesmen.


----------



## waynes world

chris j said:


> I'm reporting this post to the moderator.
> It is offensive to used car salesmen.


 
  
 I'm going to report your post to the moderator for not including a winky face after it.


----------



## StanD

I'm reporting myself to Frank Zappa.


----------



## Chris J

waynes world said:


> I'm going to report your post to the moderator for not including a winky face after it.




:eek:


----------



## Chris J

stand said:


> I'm reporting myself to Frank Zappa. :blink:




Report to the Central Scrutinizer!


----------



## Evshrug

stand said:


> Can you hear noise in your E12 when music is playing, even at low volumes? Probably not. The E12's S/N is pretty low, not enough to cause a problem unless you are listening with very sesnitive IEMs and the volume is turned up without music playing, which shouldn't affect the soundstage when listening at normal levels.
> *I only hear hiss on high-gain mode, overall I find the E12 impressive in this regard and low total harmonic distortion. On an "any amp" level, however, I stand by what I said that a lower S:N could be one factor contributing to decreased perceived soundstage width, along with other factors*
> 
> I've A/B'd the E12 using a switch and didn't find the treble off by enough to affect soundstage. Excess treble can give false cues and an inaccurate soundstage, but that's usually due to headphones or excessive EQ (if one uses EQ). If one turns on the Basss Boost switch, the trebles will seem to be recessed due to the relative change in tone. The FR of the E12 is flat beyond a human's ability to hear any difference. I wonder how much of this treble perception of the E12 is due to expectation as we are complicated creatures, our thoughts affect our perceptions.
> ...



Thanks for the encouragement. I don't particularly need calc in my current lifestyle other than as a curiousity, but who knows where the future will take me? My professor was purely didactic, he stood at the front of the class writing with his back to us and talking to the chalk board, writing so much that it was all I could do to copy the examples on the board, but by the time classes were over for the day I'd look at my notes an all understanding had leaked out and the notes looked like gibberish. The book was pretty useless too, they used situational examples and incomplete proofs in the "how-to" section, and the homework section added more equational complications... I'd "get it" with a tutor and a genius friend showing me, but the class outpaced that. I think a third of the class was failing. I asked the prof for help one day, halfway in, and he sat me down one evening and told me "I've seen students just like you before. Just drop out, because you're not going to make it." Now, I was not a model student, "just" honor roll and not "high" honor roll (straight A's) in grade school, but I think the prof didn't account for dropout rate or students who had already taken calc in grade school.

Back on topic though, I really do think that overall it's a good amp, but other amps outperform in the area of soundstage. I listen to a lot of music, but I've also played CoD4 several hours a week for 6 years, which is like playing the same song for 6 years but changing up the order of the notes, and the E12 simply was not my favourite because helicopter guns sounded harsh (high treble) and the distances of enemies seemed "off" depending what "o'clock" the enemy was at (direction itself was good because of surround processing). E5 had the same distance problem, but worse, while the other two amps had a more circular soundstage and could extend beyond the "wall" of depth.


----------



## htr2d2

chris j said:


> Not all engineers are verbally challenged, that's true, unfortunately they are the ones who get their MBAs and turn into morons, or become salesmen!


 

 Or managers. Which is just a different kind of salesperson. <-- see! I learned to be politically correct.


----------



## StanD

htr2d2 said:


> Or managers. Which is just a different kind of salesperson. <-- see! I learned to be politically correct.


 
 You looking for a promotion?


----------



## htr2d2

stand said:


> You looking for a promotion?


 

 God no! I wake at night fantasizing about a demotion.


----------



## Chris J

htr2d2 said:


> Or managers. Which is just a different kind of salesperson. <-- see! I learned to be politically correct.




Hey!
I'm an Engineering Manager! 

 :confused_face_2: or  or  take your pick....


----------



## htr2d2

chris j said:


> Hey!
> I'm an Engineering Manager!
> 
> 
> ...


 

 You poor schmuck and more power to you.
  
 Wow! We have really digressed. 
  
 Loving my E12. Use it nearly every day at work with my mod'd T50RP headphones and occasionally with my HE-400 headphones at home.
  
 The little amp that could!


----------



## StanD

htr2d2 said:


> Or managers. Which is just a different kind of salesperson. <-- see! I learned to be politically correct.


 
  
  


chris j said:


> Hey!
> I'm an Engineering Manager!
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Does that mean you are one with the dark side of the force?


----------



## Chris J

stand said:


> Does that mean you are one with the dark side of the force?




It means I have a steady job with a steady paycheque!
It means that in 2015 I am very fortunate and very grateful.

BTW, the force is strong in the E12.
It makes the magnetic field strong in my Audio Technica ATH-ESW9.


----------



## dolpsdw

Hi, i bought a month ago the xba-40 from amazon (JP imported) and i knew about the low impedance and it seemed cool to me, but when use it on my pc onboard soundcard, or in my nexus 5 it disapointed me a lot. I have a jawbone Big Jambox and i expected something similar in my ears, but was not even near. So i think i realy need an amp, (maybe dac too).
  
 I want to ask wich amp would fit my xba 40 and nexus 5 better, i am between e12(hiss problems?) - e12a - e18(this last one dont know if fit ultra low impedance iems), also i am open to suggestions of other models and marks (i ear about ifi micro idsd).
  
 The kind of music that i use to listen is trance, progresive house, EDM and a bit of clasical or celtyc.
 Thanks


----------



## Joe Bloggs

dolpsdw said:


> Hi, i bought a month ago the xba-40 from amazon (JP imported) and i knew about the low impedance and it seemed cool to me, but when use it on my pc onboard soundcard, or in my nexus 5 it disapointed me a lot. I have a jawbone Big Jambox and i expected something similar in my ears, but was not even near. So i think i realy need an amp, (maybe dac too).
> 
> I want to ask wich amp would fit my xba 40 and nexus 5 better, i am between e12(hiss problems?) - e12a - e18(this last one dont know if fit ultra low impedance iems), also i am open to suggestions of other models and marks (i ear about ifi micro idsd).
> 
> ...




How does the XBA-40 sound compared to your Jambox, what would you like to improve? I would recommend our E12A amp (for IEMs) or the E18 DAC/amp (which does fit ultra low impedance IEMs).


----------



## StanD

dolpsdw said:


> Hi, i bought a month ago the xba-40 from amazon (JP imported) and i knew about the low impedance and it seemed cool to me, but when use it on my pc onboard soundcard, or in my nexus 5 it disapointed me a lot. I have a jawbone Big Jambox and i expected something similar in my ears, but was not even near. So i think i realy need an amp, (maybe dac too).
> 
> I want to ask wich amp would fit my xba 40 and nexus 5 better, i am between e12(hiss problems?) - e12a - e18(this last one dont know if fit ultra low impedance iems), also i am open to suggestions of other models and marks (i ear about ifi micro idsd).
> 
> ...


 
 I have in my collection a pair of XBA-3 IEMs. Although they have a 12 Ohm impedance, yours has an even lower 8 Ohms. I found that most smartphones have an output impedance of  greater than 1 Ohm which is the highest output impedance that one should use for an 8 Ohm IEM/headphone. I found that the XBA-3's didn't perform well unless an external Amp was used. As far as tone goes, either an E18 or E12 worked well.
 I just pulled out my XBA-3, E12 and E18. I found a very slight hiss with the E12 on high gain. I was able to use it on low gain to amp my Galaxy Note 3 and did not have any issues with hiss. It worked well with the E18 as a DAC/Amp with my Note 3, no issues with hiss at either high or low gain settings. Either E18 or E12 worked nicely. I didn't find these IEMs to be very sensitive so I don't think and E12A is necessary for the XBA-3 IEMs. If the XBA-40's are similar I would expect the same.
 An important thing with the Sony BA IEMs is to get a good seal with one's ears or else bass will suffer. I use Comply memory foam tips. I have large ear canals and need large tips or else they don't sound good.


----------



## htr2d2

dolpsdw said:


> Hi, i bought a month ago the xba-40 from amazon (JP imported) and i knew about the low impedance and it seemed cool to me, but when use it on my pc onboard soundcard, or in my nexus 5 it disapointed me a lot. I have a jawbone Big Jambox and i expected something similar in my ears, but was not even near. So i think i realy need an amp, (maybe dac too).
> 
> I want to ask wich amp would fit my xba 40 and nexus 5 better, i am between e12(hiss problems?) - e12a - e18(this last one dont know if fit ultra low impedance iems), also i am open to suggestions of other models and marks (i ear about ifi micro idsd).
> 
> ...


 
  


stand said:


> I have in my collection a pair of XBA-3 IEMs. Although they have a 12 Ohm impedance, yours has an even lower 8 Ohms. I found that most smartphones have an output impedance of  greater than 1 Ohm which is the highest output impedance that one should use for an 8 Ohm IEM/headphone. I found that the XBA-3's didn't perform well unless an external Amp was used. As far as tone goes, either an E18 or E12 worked well.
> I just pulled out my XBA-3, E12 and E18. I found a very slight hiss with the E12 on high gain. I was able to use it on low gain to amp my Galaxy Note 3 and did not have any issues with hiss. It worked well with the E18 as a DAC/Amp with my Note 3, no issues with hiss at either high or low gain settings. Either E18 or E12 worked nicely. I didn't find these IEMs to be very sensitive so I don't think and E12A is necessary for the XBA-3 IEMs. If the XBA-40's are similar I would expect the same.
> An important thing with the Sony BA IEMs is to get a good seal with one's ears or else bass will suffer. I use Comply memory foam tips. I have large ear canals and need large tips or else they don't sound good.


 
  
 Same experience here. Using low gain, I don't hear an audible hiss on the E12. Sounds very clean. I don't have those IEMs, however.


----------



## dolpsdw

stand said:


> I have in my collection a pair of XBA-3 IEMs. Although they have a 12 Ohm impedance, yours has an even lower 8 Ohms. I found that most smartphones have an output impedance of  greater than 1 Ohm which is the highest output impedance that one should use for an 8 Ohm IEM/headphone. I found that the XBA-3's didn't perform well unless an external Amp was used. As far as tone goes, either an E18 or E12 worked well.
> I just pulled out my XBA-3, E12 and E18. I found a very slight hiss with the E12 on high gain. I was able to use it on low gain to amp my Galaxy Note 3 and did not have any issues with hiss. It worked well with the E18 as a DAC/Amp with my Note 3, no issues with hiss at either high or low gain settings. Either E18 or E12 worked nicely. I didn't find these IEMs to be very sensitive so I don't think and E12A is necessary for the XBA-3 IEMs. If the XBA-40's are similar I would expect the same.
> An important thing with the Sony BA IEMs is to get a good seal with one's ears or else bass will suffer. I use Comply memory foam tips. I have large ear canals and need large tips or else they don't sound good.


 
 could i daamage the 40s by plugin it to computer and phone to test it ? 
 Thanks for the test 
 Unfortunatly i will pair the amp for a while with nexus 5 and i have read that e12 have issues with interferences so 
  


joe bloggs said:


> How does the XBA-40 sound compared to your Jambox, what would you like to improve? I would recommend our E12A amp (for IEMs) or the E18 DAC/amp (which does fit ultra low impedance IEMs).


 
 Jambox sounds to me like nicely spaced and well bassed using the 3D audio on(at cost of a bit artificial smoothed intensity of mid/high), but i have to ear the xba-40 with properly source to judge it. At the moment they just dont bright.
  
 So now between e12a and e18. i have searched about interefernces on this ones and cant find nothing so far.
 I think what i most demand is a proper nice bass not masive but intense and nice soundstage.
  
 Also my pc soundcard integrated on the motherboard have an awfull static will e18 dac act like a new soundcard and procces the audio without the static?
  
 any comparation of bass in e18 and e12/e12a?
  
 pd:thanks you to htr2d2 for confirm it.


----------



## SolidMusic

joe bloggs said:


> How does the XBA-40 sound compared to your Jambox, what would you like to improve? I would recommend our E12A amp (for IEMs) or the E18 DAC/amp (which does fit ultra low impedance IEMs).



Hi, i have the E17 (Amp/Dac) and the E12, and both work very well with on ear ATH AudioTechnica M50XBL and the Beyerdynamic DT1350, the only experience I have with in-ear are with the old Aiwa HP V99 and the sound becomes much more clear and detailed, i love it.


----------



## StanD

dolpsdw said:


> could i daamage the 40s by plugin it to computer and phone to test it ?
> Thanks for the test
> Unfortunatly i will pair the amp for a while with nexus 5 and i have read that e12 have issues with interferences so
> 
> ...


 
 I have no interference issues with the E12. It's the E18 that can pickup some interference when sandwiched to a phone, so I don't sandwich them.


----------



## SolidMusic

stand said:


> I have no interference issues with the E12. It's the E18 that can pickup some interference when sandwiched to a phone, so I don't sandwich them.



and the E17 to, the noise"crackling" it's because when sandwiched to a phone...


----------



## StanD

stand said:


> I have no interference issues with the E12. It's the E18 that can pickup some interference when sandwiched to a phone, so I don't sandwich them.


 
  
  


solidmusic said:


> and the E17 to, the noise"crackling" it's because when sandwiched to a phone...


 
 I share your pain.


----------



## Chris J

stand said:


> I share your pain.




Thanks, Bill. 
How's Monica?


----------



## StanD

chris j said:


> Thanks, Bill.
> How's Monica?


 
 She's too old for me now. I understand that she's looking for Head-phones.


----------



## Chris J

stand said:


> She's too old for me now. I understand that she's looking for Head-phones.




That may be the world's worst joke! :rolleyes:

A female journalist once said about the Bill & Monica scandal: never underestimate the power a 21 year old woman has over a 48 year old man! :tongue_smile: so true!


----------



## nmatheis

FYI: My E12 v1 is up for grabs: LINK.


----------



## StanD

chris j said:


> That may be the world's worst joke!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 JFK had much better taste in mistresses.


----------



## htr2d2

stand said:


> JFK had much better taste in mistresses.


 

 Yes he did. M would look amazing wearing only a pair of HE-400 with an E12 in hand.


----------



## StanD

htr2d2 said:


> Yes he did. M would look amazing wearing only a pair of HE-400 with an E12 in hand.


 
 You have quite an imagination. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  A far better sight than Monica.


----------



## htr2d2

stand said:


> You have quite an imagination.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Hm.. maybe a photoshop opportunity? I am not sure my skills are up to it, but, maybe.


----------



## StanD

stand said:


> You have quite an imagination.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
  


htr2d2 said:


> Hm.. maybe a photoshop opportunity? I am not sure my skills are up to it, but, maybe.


 
 Can you put an E12 in her hand and cans on her head?


----------



## puppyfi

Sorry for this post.
 I have the E12 current version (v2). Is there any thread or link that I can follow to mod this E12?
 I would be especially interested to mod the bass boost to 50hz (or 70hz), similar to the earlier v1 production version, wonder if this is possible (may be just some change of resistors value?)..


----------



## x RELIC x

puppyfi said:


> Sorry for this post.
> I have the E12 current version (v2). Is there any thread or link that I can follow to mod this E12?
> I would be especially interested to mod the bass boost to 50hz (or 70hz), similar to the earlier v1 production version, wonder if this is possible (may be just some change of resistors value?)..:rolleyes:




The e12 (v2) is centered around 50Hz.

From FiiO:


The v1 was more toward 30Hz.

No thread that I'm aware of for modding the bass boost, but you might want to try and get your hands on the e12 DIY and have your hand at changing op-amps and buffers to tweak the sound.


----------



## puppyfi

x relic x said:


> The e12 (v2) is centered around 50Hz.
> 
> From FiiO:
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks for the fast reply 
  
 Looking at the graph posted on clieos' impression thread, I would pretty much prefer the original v1 bass boost.

  
 Unfortunately, have not come across any modding on bass boost so far


----------



## htr2d2

stand said:


> Can you put an E12 in her hand and cans on her head?


 

 It's beyond my skills, but may try anyway. I am not very artistic. It would be totally cool.


----------



## Chris J

puppyfi said:


> Thanks for the fast reply
> 
> Looking at the graph posted on clieos' impression thread, I would pretty much prefer the original v1 bass boost.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Surprising how many people say they would prefer the original bass boost.
 Personally, I find the V2 bass boost to be rather excessive.


----------



## WitzyZed

chris j said:


> Surprising how many people say they would prefer the original bass boost.
> Personally, I find the V2 bass boost to be rather excessive.



wait...so which do you like?


----------



## Chris J

witzyzed said:


> wait...so which do you like?


 
  
 Sorry about that, I've never heard the V1 bass boost, but typically I like a more subtle bass boost than what V2 gives you, so my vote goes to bass boost V1.


----------



## bzippy

chris j said:


> Sorry about that, I've never heard the V1 bass boost, but typically I like a more subtle bass boost than what V2 gives you, so my vote goes to bass boost V1.


 

 i have no choice but to officially join the v1 bass boost club too. i have one and it has won shootouts against the Cayin C5, the current E12 and the E12A for use with my HD600's. BUT, i still do find the v1 a bit too subtle much of the time, which is why i keep bringing in challengers.
  
 incidentally the E12A bass boost falls somewhere in between the v1 and the current E12, to my ear. but being an IEM amp it just doesn't quite have the power to drive my HD600's effectively, otherwise it would be my new #1. if there is ever an actual V2 release of the E12 i would buy it without hesitation if it were simply the E12A with more power. or in other words the ideal E12 for me would be:
  
 - v1 bass boost, maybe with another 1-2dB added
 - smooth moving volume knob (like the current E12 and the E12A)
 - non-recessed gain switch
 - i guess i'd also keep the cross feed for old recordings, but again with a non-recessed switch


----------



## pietcux

If you run the HD600 from the E12A what is missing compared to the E12 V1? Is it only the bass boost quantity?


----------



## x RELIC x

pietcux said:


> If you run the HD600 from the E12A what is missing compared to the E12 V1? Is it only the bass boost quantity?




The e12 was initially released with a bass boost centered at 30Hz. Many people said it was too low so FiiO quickly changed the boost to center at 50Hz so there are very few v1 units in the wild. 

They both offer +5db bass boost, just centered at different frequencies.

The e12A is built specifically for IEMs with 420mW@16 Ohms resistance. The regular e12 (v1 and v2) output 880mW@32 Ohms so with the e12A you're getting less than half the output power of the regular e12.

Also, the e12A doesn't have crossfeed.


----------



## pietcux

I have the E12 v2/DIY/A on hand. I like the A version best with all my cans. My question was more why the A cannot properly drive the HD650. I know it has less power, but only by a small margin.


----------



## StanD

pietcux said:


> I have the E12 v2/DIY/A on hand. I like the A version best with all my cans. My question was more why the A cannot properly drive the HD650. I know it has less power, but only by a small margin.


 

```
E12A: 10.3 Vp-p E12: 15 Vp-p
```
  
 That means the E12 might reach almost 94 mW and the E12A around 44 mW. That's about 3.3 dB. Maybe that extra 3.3 dB allows non A to be played a touch louder whereas our tonal perception is more sensitive to bass and treble with increased volume.


----------



## bzippy

pietcux said:


> If you run the HD600 from the E12A what is missing compared to the E12 V1? Is it only the bass boost quantity?


 
  
 no. in fact the bass boost on the A is bigger and more pronounced. i actually prefer it to the E12 v1. it's one of the reasons why i said above my ideal E12 would simply be the E12A with the power of the E12.
  
 what's missing is something that's a little hard to put my finger on. it's flatter, less alive overall. more confined. from what i've read it has to do with the fact that the E12A simply doesn't have the power to drive my HD600's like the E12 does. i imagine i'd have the opposite opinion if i had low impedance cans or iem's because all specs on the A look like upgrades to the E12.
  


pietcux said:


> I have the E12 v2/DIY/A on hand. I like the A version best with all my cans. My question was more why the A cannot properly drive the HD650. I know it has less power, but only by a small margin.


 
 no, it is significantly less power. like half, as StanD shows above. and it's not about volume, as i have learned. they both reach my preferred listening volume at less than half way on the dial. like i said, there is just an overall 'less amazing' quality to the sound when your cans are underpowered.


----------



## waynes world

bzippy said:


> i actually prefer it to the E12 v1. it's one of the reasons why i said above my ideal E12 would simply be the E12A with the power of the E12.


 
  
 I'm going to be sad the day the battery gives out in my E12v1. I haven't done any searching yet (sorry), but do you (or anyone) know if the battery can be replaced?


----------



## bzippy

waynes world said:


> I'm going to be sad the day the battery gives out in my E12v1. I haven't done any seaimagine ching yet (sorry), but do you (or anyone) know if the battery can be replaced?


 
  
 Oh man, don't even make me think about that. No, from what i've read the battery cannot be replaced except by FiiO. It's hard to imagine shipping it to China, but if it is still the only amp i can live with and i can't find a replacement then i dunno, maybe.


----------



## waynes world

bzippy said:


> Oh man, don't even make me think about that. No, from what i've read the battery cannot be replaced except by FiiO. It's hard to imagine shipping it to China, but if it is still the only amp i can live with and i can't find a replacement then i dunno, maybe.


 
  
 I'd probably go for it getting it shipped to Fiio, assuming it didn't cost toooo much. I use it as my desktop amp, and I switch it over for stereo/TV use at night, so I use and rely on that puppy *mucho* lol.
  
 I suppose another option once the battery dies would be to just keep it plugged in all of the time. That would be far from ideal, but I'd do it just to be able to keep using it!


----------



## bzippy

waynes world said:


> I'd probably go for it getting it shipped to Fiio, assuming it didn't cost toooo much. I use it as my desktop amp, and I switch it over for stereo/TV use at night, so I use and rely on that puppy *mucho* lol.
> 
> I suppose another option once the battery dies would be to just keep it plugged in all of the time. That would be far from ideal, but I'd do it just to be able to keep using it!


 
 no good options, really. i have even considered watching out for deals and snagging a second v1 for the future (there's one in the classifieds right now i noticed). incidentally, does anyone know about how many v1's they made?
  
 i'm actually holding on to hope that at some point FiiO will have an updated offering for all of us subtle bass boost devotees, considering how good they are about reacting to customer feedback. and i don't believe this is just false hope cuz as i said above their current flagship portable amp (E12A) has a very nice & subtle bass boost. so they clearly see the value in it.
  
 btw, what are you driving with your v1?


----------



## waynes world

bzippy said:


> Oh man, don't even make me think about that. No, from what i've read the battery cannot be replaced except by FiiO. It's hard to imagine shipping it to China, but if it is still the only amp i can live with and i can't find a replacement then i dunno, maybe.


 
  


waynes world said:


> I'd probably go for it getting it shipped to Fiio, assuming it didn't cost toooo much. I use it as my desktop amp, and I switch it over for stereo/TV use at night, so I use and rely on that puppy *mucho* lol.
> 
> I suppose another option once the battery dies would be to just keep it plugged in all of the time. That would be far from ideal, but I'd do it just to be able to keep using it!


 
  
 Quote:


bzippy said:


> no good options, really. i have even considered watching out for deals and snagging a second v1 for the future (there's one in the classifieds right now i noticed). incidentally, does anyone know about how many v1's they made?
> 
> *i'm actually holding on to hope that at some point FiiO will have an updated offering for all of us subtle bass boost devotees, considering how good they are about reacting to customer feedback*. and i don't believe this is just false hope cuz as i said above their current flagship portable amp (E12A) has a very nice & subtle bass boost. so they clearly see the value in it.


 
  
 Yes, @JamesFiiO is rather awesome at that! (hint hint!)
  


> btw, what are you driving with your v1?


 
  
 Iems, headphones, everything. Including my power hungry T50RP's and AKG240 Sextetts. And all very happily


----------



## Hal Rockwell

bzippy said:


> no good options, really. i have even considered watching out for deals and snagging a second v1 for the future (there's one in the classifieds right now i noticed). incidentally, does anyone know about how many v1's they made?
> 
> i'm actually holding on to hope that at some point FiiO will have an updated offering for all of us subtle bass boost devotees, considering how good they are about reacting to customer feedback. and i don't believe this is just false hope cuz as i said above their current flagship portable amp (E12A) has a very nice & subtle bass boost. so they clearly see the value in it.
> 
> btw, what are you driving with your v1?


 
  
 If I recall correctly, a batch of 200 units was manufactured for Chinese market only.


----------



## Dobrescu George

hello!
  
 i needed some help, because i cannot get a grip on this info after searching all reviews.
  
 i want to use an e12 and an e12a, but i might use them mostly at home, plugged in. 
  
 Is it built in such a way that it stop from charging the internal battery if it is full? For example, i will use it only plugged in, will i destroy the battery by overcharging or bump charghing? i might need it portable, but only from time to time...


----------



## caml

All equipments with li-ion batteries are supposed to stop charging when it is full. Either there is a small protection circuit inside the battery case or it's on the device's internal board. As for all li-ion batteries though, it is better not to leave it all the time charged at 100%, it's better to cycle it regularly and if you need to store it for some time, do so at 75% charge.
  
 The problem you will be facing though with the E12 (don't know about the E12a), is its huge, and I mean huge noise when plugged in USB power. The problem was much less apparent plugged in a wall USB charger, but on the USB port of my laptop it was simply not usable while charging due to noisy interferences.


----------



## Dobrescu George

caml said:


> All equipments with li-ion batteries are supposed to stop charging when it is full. Either there is a small protection circuit inside the battery case or it's on the device's internal board. As for all li-ion batteries though, it is better not to leave it all the time charged at 100%, it's better to cycle it regularly and if you need to store it for some time, do so at 75% charge.
> 
> The problem you will be facing though with the E12 (don't know about the E12a), is its huge, and I mean huge noise when plugged in USB power. The problem was much less apparent plugged in a wall USB charger, but on the USB port of my laptop it was simply not usable while charging due to noisy interferences.


 
 that is great to know!
  
 then if i buy something like ifi iusb cleaner, or a power cleaning tool i should be fine!


----------



## x RELIC x

caml said:


> All equipments with li-ion batteries are supposed to stop charging when it is full. Either there is a small protection circuit inside the battery case or it's on the device's internal board. As for all li-ion batteries though, it is better not to leave it all the time charged at 100%, it's better to cycle it regularly and if you need to store it for some time, do so at 75% charge.
> 
> The problem you will be facing though with the E12 (don't know about the E12a), is its huge, and I mean huge noise when plugged in USB power. The problem was much less apparent plugged in a wall USB charger, but on the USB port of my laptop it was simply not usable while charging due to noisy interferences.




Very good advice about not keeping the battery at 100% for extended periods. Chemistry gets weird and battery life suffers if not cycled from time to time.

And yes, the e12 and e12a will stop charging when full.


----------



## StanD

caml said:


> All equipments with li-ion batteries are supposed to stop charging when it is full. Either there is a small protection circuit inside the battery case or it's on the device's internal board. As for all li-ion batteries though, it is better not to leave it all the time charged at 100%, it's better to cycle it regularly and if you need to store it for some time, do so at 75% charge.
> 
> The problem you will be facing though with the E12 (don't know about the E12a), is its huge, and I mean huge noise when plugged in USB power. The problem was much less apparent plugged in a wall USB charger, but on the USB port of my laptop it was simply not usable while charging due to noisy interferences.


 
 Li-Ion batteries have no memory issues and unlike NiMh or other types does not require any periodic full discharging or other charging disicplines. In fact is is best to avoid full discharges. This information is readily available.


----------



## x RELIC x

Memory issues no, but when constantly left plugged in at 100% the battery will lose life. I have direct experience with this from my wife's laptop and my mother in laws laptop and my iPod classic. Each instance the batteries now last only around 1/10th of the original charge time because they've been plugged in or left in the dock for extended periods (months).

_Full discharge_ periodically from time to time is only to 're-calibrate' the charge level indicator. This is why Apple products recommend a full cycle once a month. I'm talking about just getting the charge moving and not static at 100% all the time. Use for 25% and charge. Use it for 50% and charge. Whatever, just use it from time to time.

Information is readily available on this as well.


----------



## caml

stand said:


> Li-Ion batteries have no memory issues and unlike NiMh or other types does not require any periodic full discharging or other charging disicplines. In fact is is best to avoid full discharges. This information is readily available.


 

 Absolutely. I have not talked about memory issue nor about full discharging, hence there was no need to quote me.
  
 What li-ion batteries do require is not to be kept at 100% charge however, and not to be fully discharged. All proper li-ion batteries implementations do include over-discharge and over-charge protection however, so it's not like you could blow your battery by using it once in a while until it's fully discharged because in fact it is the protection circuit that will shut it down before any damage is done. The best for the chemistry anyway is to keep them between 25% and 75% charged, ie not discharge them too much, nor charge them full, and they have no problem being charged often with shorter charges rather than longer full charging cycle. This information is readily available.


----------



## caml

x relic x said:


> _Full discharge_ periodically from time to time is only to 're-calibrate' the charge level indicator. This is why Apple products recommend a full cycle once a month. I'm talking about just getting the charge moving and not static at 100% all the time. Use for 25% and charge. Use it for 50% and charge. Whatever, just use it from time to time.


 
  
 Yup. Not mandatory, but proper practice.


----------



## StanD

x relic x said:


> Memory issues no, but when constantly left plugged in at 100% the battery will lose life. I have direct experience with this from my wife's laptop and my mother in laws laptop and my iPod classic. Each instance the batteries now last only around 1/10th of the original charge time because they've been plugged in or left in the dock for extended periods (months).
> 
> _Full discharge_ periodically from time to time is only to 're-calibrate' the charge level indicator. This is why Apple products recommend a full cycle once a month. I'm talking about just getting the charge moving and not static at 100% all the time. Use for 25% and charge. Use it for 50% and charge. Whatever, just use it from time to time.
> 
> Information is readily available on this as well.


 
 You stated, "it's better to cycle it regularly." I wouldn't do that once a month for any device, a full discharge is not a good thing to do.
 Avoid Frequent Full Discharges, even for laptops or mobile devices. Some laptop manufacturers recommend this for calibration. But the full discharge is not a good thing to do often. If the calibration isn't 100% accurate all that means is the battery % gauge won't be all that accurate.
 One can do as they wish.
http://www.howtogeek.com/169669/debunking-battery-life-myths-for-mobile-phones-tablets-and-laptops/


----------



## Dobrescu George

i am sorry, i did not want to start a little war in here, i only wanted to ask if it stops charging on full, because x5 would not charge over full battery, and i am using it a LOT as a DAC, and i would had wanted to use e12 as an amp but at home, and only let the battery dis-charge when needed. Li-ion batterries have this sad thing, most of them are limited at 500 charge-discharge cycles


----------



## StanD

dobrescu george said:


> i am sorry, i did not want to start a little war in here, i only wanted to ask if it stops charging on full, because x5 would not charge over full battery, and i am using it a LOT as a DAC, and i would had wanted to use e12 as an amp but at home, and only let the battery dis-charge when needed. Li-ion batterries have this sad thing, most of them are limited at 500 charge-discharge cycles


 
 I believe that if the battery doesn't get hot it's OK to leave it connected as long as the charging circuits do not overcharge the battery, only run it down a little every few months. I believe the E12 battery charging circuitry is well designed. You can always PM James and ask.


----------



## caml

stand said:


> You stated, "it's better to cycle it regularly." I wouldn't do that once a month for any device, a full discharge is not a good thing to do.
> Avoid Frequent Full Discharges, even for laptops or mobile devices. Some laptop manufacturers recommend this for calibration. But the full discharge is not a good thing to do often. If the calibration isn't 100% accurate all that means is the battery % gauge won't be all that accurate.
> One can do as they wish.
> http://www.howtogeek.com/169669/debunking-battery-life-myths-for-mobile-phones-tablets-and-laptops/


 
  
 Actually I'm the one who said "it's better to cycle it regularly" : what I meant was to use the battery and not leave it topped, not cycle like a deep cycle thing. That's where does come our misunderstanding.
  
 With all that said, even though we're not supposed to deep discharge a li-ion battery (I know about it alright), that's what I have always done with all my mobile and smart phones (because I can't be bothered charging them before I really have to). One of which (Nokia 6060) is 9 years old and still retain a good full week of autonomy. My Samsung Galaxy S2, I have done full discharges since day one and, well, it still lasts about a day with heavy use.

 I do try and be more careful with my laptop batteries though.


----------



## StanD

caml said:


> Actually I'm the one who said "it's better to cycle it regularly" : what I meant was to use the battery and not leave it topped, not cycle like a deep cycle thing. That's where does come our misunderstanding.
> 
> Another thing, even if we're not supposed to deep discharge a li-ion battery (I know about it alright), that's what I have always done with all my mobile and smart phones (because I can't be bothered charging them before I really have to). One of which (Nokia 6060) is 9 years old and still retain a good full week of autonomy. My Samsung Galaxy S2, I have done full discharges since day one and, well, it still lasts about a day with heavy use.
> 
> I do try and be more careful with my laptop batteries though.


 
 The battery thing can always be confusing. I've been using Samsung phones with swapable batteries and carry a USB battery pack to avoid the death drain. My Galaxy Note 3 has a really good battery, lasts all day and then some.
 I leave my Samsung i7 laptop plugged in most of the time and the battery has stood up better than expected. It's not a user servicable battery, however, I opened the laptop to swap out the hard drive for an SSD and changing the battery doesn't scare me. I think it'll make 3 years before needing replacement.


----------



## x RELIC x

stand said:


> You stated, "it's better to cycle it regularly." I wouldn't do that once a month for any device, a full discharge is not a good thing to do.
> Avoid Frequent Full Discharges, even for laptops or mobile devices. Some laptop manufacturers recommend this for calibration. But the full discharge is not a good thing to do often. If the calibration isn't 100% accurate all that means is the battery % gauge won't be all that accurate.
> One can do as they wish.
> http://www.howtogeek.com/169669/debunking-battery-life-myths-for-mobile-phones-tablets-and-laptops/




Apologies for my choice of words, but we are saying the same thing about the battery gauge. Most devices list empty and shutdown at 20% physical charge nowadays for safety. Remember the Sony laptop spontaneous combustions incidents?

I hobby with RC drones and trucks using Lithium polymer batteries and am well aware of the danger the overcharging and discharging brings. I have been very careful teaching my 16 year old son about the dangers but he still over discharged a battery and the thing puffed up so much we had to dispose of it in a ceramic container and pierced it to 'end its life' before it randomly set fire to itself. That was quite the smoke and flame show!


----------



## StanD

x relic x said:


> Apologies for my choice of words, but we are saying the same thing about the battery gauge. Most devices list empty and shutdown at 20% physical charge nowadays for safety. Remember the Sony laptop spontaneous combustions incidents?
> 
> I hobby with RC drones and trucks using Lithium polymer batteries and am well aware of the danger the overcharging and discharging brings. I have been very careful teaching my 16 year old son about the dangers but he still over discharged a battery and the thing puffed up so much we had to dispose of it in a ceramic container and pierced it to 'end its life' before it randomly set fire to itself. That was quite the smoke and flame show!


 
 No prob on words, we kept it friendly. If more people knew about Li-Ion batteries catching fire when pierced it would scare the Schiit out of them.


----------



## HotIce

I am pretty confident the E12 uses dedicated IC for handling the battery charge strategy, and those have all the logic to do the proper thing.
I leave mine attached to the USB for weeks, and it is perfect.


----------



## Chris J

dobrescu george said:


> i am sorry, i did not want to start a little war in here, i only wanted to ask if it stops charging on full, because x5 would not charge over full battery, and i am using it a LOT as a DAC, and i would had wanted to use e12 as an amp but at home, and only let the battery dis-charge when needed. Li-ion batterries have this sad thing, most of them are limited at 500 charge-discharge cycles




Anyway.....
.......why do you want to leave it plugged into the charger all the time?
I would unplug the E12 or E12A when I am using it and only plug in the charger when you need to charge it.

Most people would tell you stay off the charger to avoid noise created by the charger and to avoid power line noise, etc. etc


----------



## shamowfski

Been using one for a couple months.  Really don't like the lack of shielding.  I get so much noise from my Note 2.


----------



## Shawn71

My E06,E11,E12 shuts off once fully charged, and I rotate them. re-charge them when they all die, unplug/disconnect them when I see the charging indicator killed.......very very few occasions I let them charge not letting them die fully.......


----------



## bzippy

so then what is the recommended charging practice for the E12? (considering there is no way to tell how much charge the battery has)


----------



## HotIce

When the red light stops blinking, it is supposed to be charged.


----------



## StanD

hotice said:


> When the red light stops blinking, it is supposed to be charged.


 
  
 Works for me.


----------



## pietcux

Hi Skerry,
 the battery is very long lasting, so first hand, there is no need of permanently plugging it in. If it is empty you can use it while charging. I think the charging just stops when the battery is full. BTW, I just tested the HD650 and the Signature Pro on all three E12  amps that I have, E12/E12DIY/E12a. The E12A is absolutely my favorite sound wise. And it drives the HD650 on low gain.
  
 Cheers
  
 Peter


----------



## Dobrescu George

pietcux said:


> Hi Skerry,
> the battery is very long lasting, so first hand, there is no need of permanently plugging it in. If it is empty you can use it while charging. I think the charging just stops when the battery is full. BTW, I just tested the HD650 and the Signature Pro on all three E12  amps that I have, E12/E12DIY/E12a. The E12A is absolutely my favorite sound wise. And it drives the HD650 on low gain.
> 
> Cheers
> ...


 
 thanks a lot for the help!
  
 i was wondering if e12a would be enough to drive either hd650 or sig dj, which is very similar to sig pro..


----------



## pietcux

dobrescu george said:


> thanks a lot for the help!
> 
> i was wondering if e12a would be enough to drive either hd650 or sig dj, which is very similar to sig pro..


 

 I had both the Sig Pro and Sig Dj in paralell for a long time. The E12a did drive the Sig Dj also without any problem on low gain. The E12a is the outcome of most users stating that the Muses opamps are the best choice on the E12DIY. But there are a lot fake Muses around the market, so Fiio decided to create the E12a with genuine Muses built in.


----------



## x RELIC x

pietcux said:


> I had both the Sig Pro and Sig Dj in paralell for a long time. The E12a did drive the Sig Dj also without any problem on low gain. The E12a is the outcome of most users stating that the Muses opamps are the best choice on the E12DIY. But there are a lot fake Muses around the market, so Fiio decided to create the E12a with genuine Muses built in.




More like FiiO created the e12A to better suit easy to drive IEMs. Compared to the e12 with 880mW@32 Ohms the e12A with 420mW@16 Ohms is much more suited to sensitive IEMs and easy to drive headphones. The Muses are the icing on the cake.


----------



## StanD

x relic x said:


> More like FiiO created the e12A to better suit easy to drive IEMs. Compared to the e12 with 880mW@32 Ohms the e12A with 420mW@16 Ohms is much more suited to sensitive IEMs and easy to drive headphones. The Muses are the icing on the cake.


 
 Yep, my E12 can get away with driving my HE-500's, I'm not so sure that the E12A would really cut it.


----------



## Dobrescu George

stand said:


> Yep, my E12 can get away with driving my HE-500's, I'm not so sure that the E12A would really cut it.


 
 most probably would not. x5 was not able to drive he560, even at full volume with high gain, the sound was too quiet, and i felt a lack of power, he-560 sounded grainy straight out of x5 for one reason or another...
  
 but as long as e12a can drive my ultrasones i am very very happy with knowing this!
  
 e12a is also great for ie8/ie800, it takes everything to the next level!


----------



## StanD

dobrescu george said:


> most probably would not. x5 was not able to drive he560, even at full volume with high gain, the sound was too quiet, and i felt a lack of power, he-560 sounded grainy straight out of x5 for one reason or another...
> 
> but as long as e12a can drive my ultrasones i am very very happy with knowing this!
> 
> e12a is also great for ie8/ie800, it takes everything to the next level!


 
 Well, the E12A was designed with IEMs and sensitive cans in mind. The lower noise floor is essential for these.


----------



## pietcux

We did drive the HE400i, the AKG K702, SENNHEISER HD650, BEYER DT 880/250. All on low gain. And all sounded better on the E12a. He who rules out the E12a based on the max output, really misses the better sound.
Just saying.....


----------



## Dobrescu George

pietcux said:


> We did drive the HE400i, the AKG K702, SENNHEISER HD650, BEYER DT 880/250. All on low gain. And all sounded better on the E12a. He who rules out the E12a based on the max output, really misses the better sound.
> Just saying.....


 
 totally good to know... actually, chord hugo drives hd800 at full potential and the output power is similar to e12a...


----------



## StanD

pietcux said:


> We did drive the HE400i, the AKG K702, SENNHEISER HD650, BEYER DT 880/250. All on low gain. And all sounded better on the E12a. He who rules out the E12a based on the max output, really misses the better sound.
> Just saying.....


 
 Other than SNR, what property of the E21A makes it sound better?


----------



## bzippy

hotice said:


> When the red light stops blinking, it is supposed to be charged.


 

 yeah that i know that, sorry, i was unclear wtih my question. i was wondering when to charge it and what is best for the battery? only after it dies? that is not so convenient, obviously. so is it ok to keep it plugged in until i use it?


----------



## HotIce

As I said, even though I did not take mine apart to look at the ICs (and the pictures floating around, only show the top PCB with decent resolution), I am pretty confident the E12 has dedicated charging IC, which will take care of all the charging logic for the E12 battery configuration.
This is why I leave mine constantly plugged to the USB, when it sits on my desk, and it has been fine for a while.


----------



## bzippy

pietcux said:


> We did drive the HE400i, the AKG K702, SENNHEISER HD650, BEYER DT 880/250. All on low gain. And all sounded better on the E12a. He who rules out the E12a based on the max output, really misses the better sound.
> Just saying.....


 

 not my experience at all. i wanted to like the E12A more than, or at least as much as, my E12 to drive my HD600's. i was hoping this because i like the E12A bass boost more than the E12 (either version). but for me the E12 sounded better with the HD600's (with bass boost off, which is what matters most to me).


----------



## bzippy

hotice said:


> As I said, even though I did not take mine apart to look at the ICs (and the pictures floating around, only show the top PCB with decent resolution), I am pretty confident the E12 has dedicated charging IC, which will take care of all the charging logic for the E12 battery configuration.
> This is why I leave mine constantly plugged to the USB, when it sits on my desk, and it has been fine for a while.


 

 ok, good to know. my concern was mostly about the negative effect on lifespan from keeping it fully charged most of the time.


----------



## Chris J

bzippy said:


> ok, good to know. my concern was mostly about the negative effect on lifespan from keeping it fully charged most of the time.




I would keep it unplugged when using it to eliminate power line noise.

Of course the E12 has a charging management chip, what do you think makes the red charging light blink?


----------



## StanD

chris j said:


> I would keep it unplugged when using it to eliminate power line noise.
> 
> Of course the E12 has a charging management chip, what do you think makes the red charging light blink?


 
 Leprechauns?


----------



## bzippy

chris j said:


> I would keep it unplugged when using it to eliminate power line noise.
> 
> Of course the E12 has a charging management chip, what do you think makes the red charging light blink?


 

 yes, i got that and i always do unplug it when in use. i was only asking about what is best to do when not using it. i'd love to have it almost always plugged in when not in use but there was a post or two in the previous pages that said something about the chemistry getting "weird' when kept at 100% all the time (whatever that means), and that cycling is important. perhaps the amount of discharging that happens after using it once or twice is enough to satisfy this recommendation? i'm guessing it is so that's what i'll do.
  
 the only reason i'm so annoyingly concerned about this is that i want to maximize the lifespan of this battery. i have the v1 version and i got it used, so i have no idea what abuse it has taken so far. i really love this amp and am trying to put off for as long as possible the quandary of what to do when the battery gives out, which would be to either find another of these rare v1's (and not knowing the health of that battery), send it to China for battery replacement (ugh), or embark on a new, lengthy hunt for a unit that suits me as well as this one does.
  
 anyway, thanks.


----------



## StanD

bzippy said:


> yes, i got that and i always do unplug it when in use. i was only asking about what is best to do when not using it. i'd love to have it almost always plugged in when not in use but there was a post or two in the previous pages that said something about the chemistry getting "weird' when kept at 100% all the time (whatever that means), and that cycling is important. perhaps the amount of discharging that happens after using it once or twice is enough to satisfy this recommendation? i'm guessing it is so that's what i'll do.
> 
> the only reason i'm so annoyingly concerned about this is that i want to maximize the lifespan of this battery. i have the v1 version and i got it used, so i have no idea what abuse it has taken so far. i really love this amp and am trying to put off for as long as possible the quandary of what to do when the battery gives out, which would be to either find another of these rare v1's (and not knowing the health of that battery), send it to China for battery replacement (ugh), or embark on a new, lengthy hunt for a unit that suits me as well as this one does.
> 
> anyway, thanks.


 
 Find someone with some repair skills and read the below link.
http://fiio.me/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=40032
  
 I'll bet that all versions open the same way.


----------



## HotIce

Batteries deteriorate with time. This happens to all of them. If you want to preserve them longer, you need to keep them in cold temperatures at about 40..50% charge.
But that defeats the point of having something ready to use when you need 
I would not worry about the battery, as it will last longer than your interest in the E12. By them time it will have to be replaced, the E15 will be out, with glittering new features, and you will want to grab that one.
Replacing the battery should not be requiring major surgery. Two screws on the back, pull the gain pin, pull the slide where the PSB sits, and replace the battery.
It "should" just have a connector, so soldering might not be involved at all.


----------



## Dobrescu George

hotice said:


> Batteries deteriorate with time. This happens to all of them. If you want to preserve them longer, you need to keep them in cold temperatures at about 40..50% charge.
> But that defeats the point of having something ready to use when you need
> 
> 
> ...


 
 what is fiio e15?..
  
 also, as far as SQ goes, e12 and e12a are just so neutral that they can compete with amps at any price, i love the fact that they are very colorless! But i really do think that if the batterry is protected against over-charge and bump charge, we are more than fine!
  
 the only thing i can ask, is if anyone managed to replace the battery, as this would actually be good, but i remember fiio saying that they would change it personally, but also considering the low price, i might get the next thing they create when batterry dies.


----------



## HotIce

I made the E15 up  , just to message the fact that by the time you might need to replace the battery, other more interesting (as not necessarily better sounding, but simply newer) things will be on the market.


----------



## Dobrescu George

hotice said:


> I made the E15 up
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 fiio has made a point in a tradition of what they produce new is better..


----------



## bzippy

stand said:


> Find someone with some repair skills and read the below link.
> http://fiio.me/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=40032


 
  


hotice said:


> Batteries deteriorate with time. This happens to all of them. If you want to preserve them longer, you need to keep them in cold temperatures at about 40..50% charge.
> But that defeats the point of having something ready to use when you need
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 good posts, both. and likely the most relevant: probably the E15 point. i will stop worrying and learn to love the bomb. thanks, folks.


----------



## StanD

bzippy said:


> good posts, both. and likely the most relevant: probably the E15 point. i will stop worrying and learn to love the bomb. thanks, folks.


 
 You took some good advice from Slim Pickens.


----------



## x RELIC x

It was me who was saying not to keep the battery charged constantly at 100%, from experience on multiple devices. 

I wanted to know what what was going on so I did some research. Batteries can be charged more than 4.2 volts but for safety reasons it is limited to 4.2V, but that doesn't mean it's healthy for the battery. As a matter of fact, when only charging by just 0.10 volt less you increase the usable life of the battery by around 2x. Charging to 4.2 volts may get, for example, 300-500 cycles. Charging to 4.1 volts, in the same battery, will get 600-1000 cycles. Less is more in this case. Being fully charged is stressful on the battery. Charging to 80-90% is better than charging to 100%. Simple fact. 

Read about it here...... Fourth chart down the page:

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries

There is also a chemical instability that occurs in the battery at the anode or cathode end when left at full charge or almost empty for *extended periods*. When you've seen a lithium battery puff up from being stored at full charge or discharged too much or *too long* it is the chemical instability taking over causing the physical swelling. I can't recal exactly what it is, but my take away (and experience) says don't keep the battery charged at full for *extended periods of time*.

A simpler read on the subject from 'Wired'.

http://www.wired.com/2013/09/laptop-battery/

At the end of the day you will more than likely have a new device before the battery dies when using the device regularly, but I caution against leaving the thing plugged in ALL THE TIME if you care about having any sort of charge time when you need it unplugged.

Cheers


----------



## Chris J

stand said:


> Leprechauns?




No.
The would be green if it was powered by Leprechauns.
You obviously have no idea what you are talking about!




bzippy said:


> yes, i got that and i always do unplug it when in use. i was only asking about what is best to do when not using it. i'd love to have it almost always plugged in when not in use but there was a post or two in the previous pages that said something about the chemistry getting "weird' when kept at 100% all the time (whatever that means), and that cycling is important. perhaps the amount of discharging that happens after using it once or twice is enough to satisfy this recommendation? i'm guessing it is so that's what i'll do.
> 
> the only reason i'm so annoyingly concerned about this is that i want to maximize the lifespan of this battery. i have the v1 version and i got it used, so i have no idea what abuse it has taken so far. i really love this amp and am trying to put off for as long as possible the quandary of what to do when the battery gives out, which would be to either find another of these rare v1's (and not knowing the health of that battery), send it to China for battery replacement (ugh), or embark on a new, lengthy hunt for a unit that suits me as well as this one does.
> 
> anyway, thanks.




Ya know what?
The little light bulb in my head just went on.
Managing the battery in my notebook computer or iPad or X5 is no problem......the designers were nice enough to put battery charge meters on those devices.
The E12? I have no idea how much charge is on it two days after I charge it!
Anyway, I usually just charge it when I charge the X5 because I usually use it with the X5. Errr....except when I forget to turn it off! 
Personally, I don't sweat it.


----------



## x RELIC x

Not to be a prat on the subject, but here is my battery from a 2006 MacBookPro that basically died from leaving it plugged in all the time. Notice the swelling......... Not safe! 




I'm putting forth my time to help users out there from damaging their devices, not trying to spread unfounded rumours.

Use the battery normally and you should be fine.


----------



## bzippy

chris j said:


> Ya know what?
> The little light bulb in my head just went on.
> Managing the battery in my notebook computer or iPad or X5 is no problem......the designers were nice enough to put battery charge meters on those devices.
> The E12? I have no idea how much charge is on it two days after I charge it!
> ...


 
 It seems obvious enough, but that's actually a great idea and just what i'm gonna do: charge the E12 when i charge the X3. i mean, they're stacked together after all. often i use the X3 without the E12 (into my home stereo or car or whatever) so it's unlikely the the E12 will run out before the X3. this is a plan i can get behind. i'm an idiot. thanks.


----------



## HotIce

That is a defective battery. Do not confuse the two.
All these devices have dedicated ICs which implement all the charging policies for the target battery.
This is what I use preferably, but there are tons of ICs doing basically the same thing:

http://pdfserv.maximintegrated.com/en/ds/MAX1737.pdf

If someone opens up the E12 and posts an high-res picture on the back (must be there, because it isn't in the front) of the PCB, we will know exactly what they use.
Bottom line, life is to short to waste time in keeping batteries in the freezer at half the charge, in order to extend their life.
I keep it always plugged, I let the IC state machine to take care of the charge, and when I have to unplug it, I know I have full charge.


----------



## Chris J

bzippy said:


> It seems obvious enough, but that's actually a great idea and just what i'm gonna do: charge the E12 when i charge the X3. i mean, they're stacked together after all. often i use the X3 without the E12 (into my home stereo or car or whatever) so it's unlikely the the E12 will run out before the X3. this is a plan i can get behind. i'm an idiot. thanks.




You're an idiot?
I was the guy who missed the point of the whole question! 
Which is:
How do I manage the battery on a rechargeable device without a battery charge meter?


----------



## x RELIC x

hotice said:


> That is a defective battery. Do not confuse the two.
> All these devices have dedicated ICs which implement all the charging policies for the target battery.
> This is what I use preferably, but there are tons of ICs doing basically the same thing:
> 
> ...




No. Happened to me twice. This is the replacement battery. Also my mother-in-laws laptop and my iPod classic both have very low battery life from being plugged in all the time, but no swelling. I gave the links. I've experienced the drawbacks. I'm not talking about overcharging, or freezer myths. It's a fact that you reduce the life of a battery this way. If anyone wants to burry their head in the sand and leave their batteries PLUGGED IN ALL THE TIME without caring then that's their prerogative.


----------



## Chris J

x relic x said:


> No. Happened to me twice. This is the replacement battery. Also my mother-in-laws laptop and my iPod classic both have very low battery life from being plugged in all the time, but no swelling. I gave the links. I've experienced the drawbacks. I'm not talking about overcharging, or freezer myths. It's a fact that you reduce the life of a battery this way. If anyone wants to burry their head in the sand and leave their batteries PLUGGED IN ALL THE TIME without caring then that's their prerogative.




Oh no!
Mother in law stories....:eek:


----------



## x RELIC x

chris j said:


> Oh no!
> Mother in law stories....:eek:




Oh man, I've got some stories about her....... :eek:

But this is getting off topic. For what it's worth I've forgot to turn off my e12 on occasion and it has drained completely but I haven't seen any ill effects yet. I'm sure FiiO has implemented the 20% minimum cut off in the controller.


----------



## bzippy

x relic x said:


> . . . For what it's worth I've forgot to turn off my e12 on occasion and it has drained completely but I haven't seen any ill effects yet. I'm sure FiiO has implemented the 20% minimum cut off in the controller.


 

 i think you're right about that. from the E12 manual:
  
_(3) Charging Indicator: When charging, red light shows respiration lamp effect; After fully-recharged, red light remains on steadily; Low power in using, red light keeps flashing; When battery voltage goes below 10.2 V, it will shut off automatically to remind user to get it recharged._
  
 and you know that's a legit quote because i don't think you can fake that kind of grammar.  (no offense to my Chinese friends)


----------



## StanD

chris j said:


> No.
> The would be green if it was powered by Leprechauns.
> You obviously have no idea what you are talking about!


 
  
 Obviously I have better Leprechauns than you have. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Pay them more.


----------



## Chris J

stand said:


> Obviously I have better Leprechauns than you have.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 No, your Leprechauns are obviously Commies.


----------



## StanD

stand said:


> Obviously I have better Leprechauns than you have.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
  


chris j said:


> No, your Leprechauns are obviously Commies.


 
 No commies here. Senator Eugene McCarthy rooted out commie Leprechauns long ago.


----------



## Chris J

stand said:


> No commies here. Senator Eugene McCarthy rooted out commie Leprechauns long ago.




Glad to hear that McCarthy rooted out them sumbitches!
They were obviously polluting the morals of our youth.


----------



## StanD

chris j said:


> Glad to hear that McCarthy rooted out them sumbitches!
> They were obviously polluting the morals of our youth.


 
 They were planning to hack DACs, Imagine hearing voices coming from an E18 telling you to do naughty things with silver headphone cables?


----------



## snellemin

It's true that you don't want to leave lithium batteries at max pressure(4.2V) for a long time.  For a better life cycle, just don't go below 20% capacity and max around 4.1V.  This is what I do with my Ebikes.
  
 But if you think about it, by 200 battery cycles there will be a newer and better E15.
  
  
 There is a hardware solution for those that are curious in what their battery capacity is over time. Here is one device that will work.  There are cheaper usb power measuring tools too.
  
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00LZ07BG0/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=2INAHOED2PV8&coliid=ID7QFD04HIM6Y&psc=1


----------



## StanD

If anyone is worried they should email of PM FiiO and ask it hey charge the battery to 100% or a little less to preserve battery life.
 Hey, James are you watching?


----------



## x RELIC x

Honestly, I don't feel that normal use as intended will be an issue and regular charging will be fine. I just pointed out that keeping the unit ALWAYS on the charger CONSTANTLY is bad and very stressful for the battery, like all lithium batteries. Like simply revving your car engine to max rpm constantly. You will wear it out quicker. Read the links I posted earlier if anyone is interested, but I feel this has gone way off topic and my apologies for starting it all.


----------



## Chris J

x relic x said:


> Honestly, I don't feel that normal use as intended will be an issue and regular charging will be fine. I just pointed out that keeping the unit ALWAYS on the charger CONSTANTLY is bad and very stressful for the battery, like all lithium batteries. Like simply revving your car engine to max rpm constantly. You will wear it out quicker. Read the links I posted earlier if anyone is interested, but I feel this has gone way off topic and my apologies for starting it all.




That basically sums it up.
Case closed.


----------



## bzippy

chris j said:


> That basically sums it up.
> Case closed.


 

 i agree. so let's talk about that E15 i say (or E13 or whatever). what's next from FiiO vis-a-vis high power portable amp i wonder?


----------



## Dobrescu George

bzippy said:


> i agree. so let's talk about that E15 i say (or E13 or whatever). what's next from FiiO vis-a-vis high power portable amp i wonder?


 
 e12 is able to power hd800. maybe not at the fullest of levels, but it is able to do it. for what would you need eve more power?


----------



## bzippy

dobrescu george said:


> e12 is able to power hd800. maybe not at the fullest of levels, but it is able to do it. for what would you need eve more power?


 

 oh, not more power. just something new & fun for when my  E12 battery dies.


----------



## Dobrescu George

bzippy said:


> oh, not more power. just something new & fun for when my  E12 battery dies.


 
 ah, got it!
  
 i wish fiio would release an amp that has the power of e12 using muses op-amps!


----------



## StanD

bzippy said:


> oh, not more power. just something new & fun for when my  E12 battery dies.


 
 Powerd by cold fusion. No more stink'in batteries and wallwarts.


----------



## Chris J

stand said:


> Powerd by cold fusion. No more stink'in batteries and wallwarts.




Cut back on the medicinal marijuana....:confused_face_2:


----------



## StanD

chris j said:


> Cut back on the medicinal marijuana....


 
 I'm not out west, here it's criminal
 You were probably one those guys that laughed at the Wright brothers.


----------



## Chris J

stand said:


> I'm not out west, here it's criminal
> You were probably one those guys that laughed at the Wright brothers.  :veryevil:




I did laugh, but I was laughing WITH them!


----------



## StanD

stand said:


> I'm not out west, here it's criminal
> You were probably one those guys that laughed at the Wright brothers.


 
  
  


chris j said:


> I did laugh, but I was laughing WITH them!


 
 That's what they all say.
 You were probably laughing at Thomas Edison singing "Mary had a little lamb" into a wax cylinder. In this case I might have joined in laughing.


----------



## DeadMan

Why is there no desktop equivalent (so I can plug into USB) without any annoying noise? I want the crosstalk/bass boost features etc and a balanced volume control with no noise whilst being powered. I don't need any battery nonsense.


----------



## x RELIC x

deadman said:


> Why is there no desktop equivalent (so I can plug into USB) without any annoying noise? I want the crosstalk/bass boost features etc and a balanced volume control with no noise whilst being powered. I don't need any battery nonsense.




Um, because they didn't make one.

They have an e90k for desktop that uses the original e17 and e07k as a DAC but no crossfeed. About the same power output with USB.

http://m.fiio.net/en/products/8


----------



## DeadMan

x relic x said:


> Um, because they didn't make one.
> 
> They have an e90k for desktop that uses the original e17 and e07k as a DAC but no crossfeed. About the same power output with USB.
> 
> http://m.fiio.net/en/products/8


 

 Any alternatives? If the E12 did not make any noise when connected via USB to a PC I would use that but I am put off by that possibility.


----------



## pietcux

USB simply does not deliver so much power. The amp could not perform so well. You might want to check on the SCHIIT FULLA.


----------



## x RELIC x

deadman said:


> Any alternatives? If the E12 did not make any noise when connected via USB to a PC I would use that but I am put off by that possibility.




Actually, I don't listen from a PC with any gear because every time that I have I get unwanted computer noise. My MacbookPro works fine but I typically listen with my DAP either plugged in to the e12 or coax to my full size headphone amp.

The Schiit Fulla that pietcux mentioned above may be what you need for a cleaner signal. I've heard good things about it but haven't used one personally.

Edit: The Wyrd is actually the USB noise cleaning device from Schiit, not Fulla. Always get them mixed up.


----------



## HotIce

My E12 is pretty silent, noise wise.
Both when connected with PC, or laptop, or iPad, or iPhone.
I use it in low gain mode though, mostly. In high gain, you can hear some very minor noise when no audio is played, but that is no source of concern for me.


----------



## Allucid

How's the E12a for full size headphones around 300-600ohm?


----------



## Dobrescu George

allucid said:


> How's the E12a for full size headphones around 300-600ohm?


 
 you are on e12 not e12a thread, and e12a cannot drive hd650 and anything harder to drive.
  
 it struggles with hd650, resoults are that some like, some do not like the sound.


----------



## Chris J

allucid said:


> How's the E12a for full size headphones around 300-600ohm?




The E12A is optimized for driving low impedance phones.
It may not output enough voltage to drive a high impedance 'phone, depending on the sensitivity of the high impedance 'phone.


----------



## pietcux

allucid said:


> How's the E12a for full size headphones around 300-600ohm?



HD650 is just find with the E12a. It has only half of The output power of the standard E12, but I drive the HD650 on low gain with both amps anyways and the volume is only around 12:00 let's say 11:30 on the standard and 12:00 on the "a" version. The E12a sounds a bit more refined though due to the better opamps.


----------



## StanD

pietcux said:


> HD650 is just find with the E12a. It has only half of The output power of the standard E12, but I drive the HD650 on low gain with both amps anyways and the volume is only around 12:00 let's say 11:30 on the standard and 12:00 on the "a" version. The E12a sounds a bit more refined though due to the better opamps.


 
 The E12 series utilizes closedloop negative feedback and has distortion levels far below a human being's ability to perceive. The FR's are also where one cannot tell a difference. The E12A's fine point is with a lower SNR of 115 dB vs. 110 dB for the E12 one might have a better experience with high efficiency IEMs. I expect that you will not agree.


----------



## pietcux

stand said:


> The E12 series utilizes closedloop negative feedback and has distortion levels far below a human being's ability to perceive. The FR's are also where one cannot tell a difference. The E12A's fine point is with a lower SNR of 115 dB vs. 110 dB for the E12 one might have a better experience with high efficiency IEMs. I expect that you will not agree.



Oh the difference in sound is not large. On the DIY you can exchange the opamps and buffers. Even if the differences are not large, they are audible. The E12a sounds a bit more refined to me at times. As I have both, I can tell. I only want to state that the "a" can drive the HD650 properly.


----------



## Dobrescu George

pietcux said:


> Oh the difference in sound is not large. On the DIY you can exchange the opamps and buffers. Even if the differences are not large, they are audible. The E12a sounds a bit more refined to me at times. As I have both, I can tell. I only want to state that the "a" can drive the HD650 properly.


 
 sorry, my wrong then. i only know that hd800 need more power than even e12 normal version. with e12, hd650 were fine, with just x5 they were needing a little more, and as e12a has the same power rating, i thought that e12a might also be not enough.
  
 anyways, the muses op-amps are really something different.


stand said:


> The E12 series utilizes closedloop negative feedback and has distortion levels far below a human being's ability to perceive. The FR's are also where one cannot tell a difference. The E12A's fine point is with a lower SNR of 115 dB vs. 110 dB for the E12 one might have a better experience with high efficiency IEMs. I expect that you will not agree.


 
 i would not agree. there is a little more to e12a than just snr and other facts. i really do think that the muses op-amps are special.


----------



## StanD

pietcux said:


> Oh the difference in sound is not large. On the DIY you can exchange the opamps and buffers. Even if the differences are not large, they are audible. The E12a sounds a bit more refined to me at times. As I have both, I can tell. I only want to state that the "a" can drive the HD650 properly.


 
 Sometimes small differences can be due to expectation.
 The E12A can deliver 10.3 Vp-p while the E12 can deliver 15 Vp-p.
 So that's a difference of 44.2 mW vs. 93.7 mW. A difference of 3.3 dB.
 That means the peak power of the E12A will deliver around 94.1 dBSPL on the HD650's. If one listens loudly or to music that is not compressed much (volume) the 12a might not satisfy them. The E12 just cuts it for me and not always. Most portables don't even come close to the 12A at 300 Ohms.
 Most contemporary music is highly compressed (volume) and in that case the 12A might work out for many people that do not listen loudly (subjective).


----------



## StanD

dobrescu george said:


> sorry, my wrong then. i only know that hd800 need more power than even e12 normal version. with e12, hd650 were fine, with just x5 they were needing a little more, and as e12a has the same power rating, i thought that e12a might also be not enough.
> 
> anyways, the muses op-amps are really something different.
> i would not agree. there is a little more to e12a than just snr and other facts. i really do think that the muses op-amps are special.


 
 This is electronics, special in what specific way?


----------



## Dobrescu George

stand said:


> This is electronics, special in what specific way?


 
 for example, muses are known for changing signatures more than most op-amps with temperature. 
  
 e12a changes SQ when it is warm, and running for some time, than when it is cold.
  
 Also, it costs around 70$ only to buy the op-amp itself,it is for a reason than muses are so respected as op-amps. In fact, i should try reverse thikning, had you tried e12a, and heared no difference, or you were not pleased with the sound?


----------



## StanD

dobrescu george said:


> for example, muses are known for changing signatures more than most op-amps with temperature.
> 
> e12a changes SQ when it is warm, and running for some time, than when it is cold.
> 
> Also, it costs around 70$ only to buy the op-amp itself,it is for a reason than muses are so respected as op-amps. In fact, i should try reverse thikning, had you tried e12a, and heared no difference, or you were not pleased with the sound?


 
 Yes I tried the E12a, compared it to the 12, using an A/B switch. Noise was the notable difference. IMO, the rest is expectation bias. Can you identify the specific property that is different. In this context signature is a vague term.


----------



## Dobrescu George

stand said:


> Yes I tried the E12a, compared it to the 12, using an A/B switch. Noise was the notable difference. IMO, the rest is expectation bias. Can you identify the specific property that is different. In this context signature is a vague term.


 
 separation, soundstage, and details, und texture of mids.
  
 practically all could be caused by background noise reduction, i do not say that this is not the case, but it feels better.
  
 i never had expectation bias, the first time i heared an x5 compared to a cowon j3, i needed a few minutes to understand the differences, i do not expect the sound to change with amps and dacs as much as it does with headphones/iems.
  
 i, for one have to try it longer before buying it, so i am not that 100% convinced of buying it, i would better keep da money for getting a pair of ie800.


----------



## StanD

dobrescu george said:


> separation, soundstage, and details, und texture of mids.
> 
> practically all could be caused by background noise reduction, i do not say that this is not the case, but it feels better.
> 
> ...


 
 The ie800 is sweet but expensive
 Separation is determined by crosstalk which is going to be more than one can tell in any of these opamps. boosted treble can affect our perception but IMO is not a factor by opamps.
 Soundstage is based upon recorded spacial cues and by the headphones or IEMs.
 The noise levels are so low that when the music is playing it will not be factor, in this case it should be more of an annoyance during silence or the quietest of passages.
 What did you experience as a difference between the j3 and x5? The difference could be due to driving capabilities and the headphones/IEMs used with them.


----------



## Dobrescu George

stand said:


> The ie800 is sweet but expensive
> Separation is determined by crosstalk which is going to be more than one can tell in any of these opamps. boosted treble can affect our perception but IMO is not a factor by opamps.
> Soundstage is based upon recorded spacial cues and by the headphones or IEMs.
> The noise levels are so low that when the music is playing it will not be factor, in this case it should be more of an annoyance during silence or the quietest of passages.
> What did you experience as a difference between the j3 and x5? The difference could be due to driving capabilities and the headphones/IEMs used with them.


 
 using ultrasone dj one pro, sennheiser ie8, sennheiser hd380 pro, and testing in store with many other headphones i felt when going from j3 to x5.
  
 -at first i thought that the sound was the same
 -then i started listening in depth 
 -then i started noticing sounds that were never there with the same headphones, same tracks
 -then a notion of soundstage appeared, which was never there with j3
 -then a very very coherent and neutral response came in, without the veil and mud of j3
 -then everything felt real
 -for the first time i hear real cymbals, and everything is clear from bass to treble
 -for the first time i hear bass, specially bass guitars, that were never there, specially in dance gavin dance, la dispute, closure in moscow, protest the hero
 -for the first time music felt real.
 -small details can be heared after double tests in all units, but on x5, they are more forward, easier to hear.1
  
 i tried to reproduce the effects using computer based DSP, while using x5 as a DAC, to see what exactly happens and i found these things:
  
 -the sound of j3 is reproduced exactly the same by my computer audio port
 -after adjusting myu brain to it, i can notice, but harder all of the above things
 -treble is affected every single time, only x5 really outputs air, soundstage and good treble
 -for the effect to pe reproduced in computer, i managed to have the exact same effect by changing in foobar the resampler
  
 cowon j3, sandisk sansa clip+, computer audio and my two smartphones sound exactly like resampling in foobar2K using resampler pphs to 32000
 fiio x5 sounds like using the same resampler to 48000. i hope that you can try and observe what i had observed.
  
  
 i cannot tell why this happens, but i noticed that the effect is easy to reproduce and happens every single time. 
  
  
  
  
  
 note: the only other device i ever heared that was able to shock me as much as x5 was, is chord hugo. going from x5 to chord hugo has an amazing effect.
  
  
  
 i had become less and less inclined to buy e12a these days, because i really do think that i should buy either ultrasone signature dj or ie800, my end game headphones and iems, and e12a costs about 1/3 of the price i would have to pay for any of my ultimate headphones.iems.


----------



## StanD

@skerry2006aj The J3 has a measly 29 mW at 16 Ohms and the X5 has 460 mW at 16 Ohms. As the impedance goes up we all know that power usually takes dive with these devices.
 The J3 has no other spec other than the 29 mW is the max at 16 Ohms. The X5 has a 255 mW spec at 32 Ohms. The J3 seems to lack power and it's not a cheapie. It also has jet effects, did you turn that off?
 As far as the Hugo goes, I wonder how much one's bias is affected by the price. Unless one does a fast A/B comparison our short term Echoic Memory (about 4 seconds) prevents a proper comparison. We make terrible witnesses.


----------



## Dobrescu George

stand said:


> @skerry2006aj The J3 has a measly 29 mW at 16 Ohms and the X5 has 460 mW at 16 Ohms. As the impedance goes up we all know that power usually takes dive with these devices.
> The J3 has no other spec other than the 29 mW is the max at 16 Ohms. The X5 has a 255 mW spec at 32 Ohms. The J3 seems to lack power and it's not a cheapie. It also has jet effects, did you turn that off?
> As far as the Hugo goes, I wonder how much one's bias is affected by the price. Unless one does a fast A/B comparison our short term Echoic Memory (about 4 seconds) prevents a proper comparison. We make terrible witnesses.


 
 i totally agree
  
 i turned off all jeteffects
  
 hugo had a particular different sound, with all equipment i tried, specially hd800. it made them sound good, which to my ears sounded ad with even more expensive amps.


----------



## pietcux

Stan, yes we are terribly bad in comparing sound equipment, that is true. And more output power results obviously in better sound. Got my first desktop headphone amp today. It is a well used Meier Audio Opera. Now I know that non of my portable amps can compete with such a powerfull device. Nevertheless I still feel that the E12a can drive the HD650 as good as the E12.


----------



## Dobrescu George

pietcux said:


> Stan, yes we are terribly bad in comparing sound equipment, that is true. And more output power results obviously in better sound. Got my first desktop headphone amp today. It is a well used Meier Audio Opera. Now I know that non of my portable amps can compete with such a powerfull device. Nevertheless I still feel that the E12a can drive the HD650 as good as the E12.


 
 yes, but you consider the new, desktop amp better than e12a, right?


----------



## StanD

pietcux said:


> Stan, yes we are terribly bad in comparing sound equipment, that is true. And more output power results obviously in better sound. Got my first desktop headphone amp today. It is a well used Meier Audio Opera. Now I know that non of my portable amps can compete with such a powerfull device. Nevertheless I still feel that the E12a can drive the HD650 as good as the E12.


 
 Uh oh, don't get caught up in the over wattage weirdness on head-fi. Somehow I think you won't get caught up in that. Enjoy your new toy.


----------



## snellemin

wrong thread


----------



## pietcux

dobrescu george said:


> yes, but you consider the new, desktop amp better than e12a, right?


 
  
 Yes it is better, but the E12a is still a very good amp, so is the E12 and also the Meier Audio Stepdance. The new one just seems to do everything much easier. It has been a 975€ amp back in 2007. And the Meier Amps have never been considered as boutique amps.


----------



## pietcux

stand said:


> Uh oh, don't get caught up in the over wattage weirdness on head-fi. Somehow I think you won't get caught up in that. Enjoy your new toy.






 


It is just like when driving a car with a big engine. You do not drive faster, but it feels like the engine works more effortless. The amp is 7 years old and has been on my list for long already. The included DAC is a bit outdated, because it can only do 96 Khz but I do not believe in high res anyways. Decent recordings will sound decent in CD quality anyways


----------



## StanD

pietcux said:


> stand said:
> 
> 
> > Uh oh, don't get caught up in the over wattage weirdness on head-fi. Somehow I think you won't get caught up in that. Enjoy your new toy.
> ...


 
 You're good to go. For the last few years, "New and Improved" are code words for "Spend more money here."


----------



## htr2d2

allucid said:


> How's the E12a for full size headphones around 300-600ohm?


 

 The e12a is specifically designed for EIM headphones. I am assume at 300 to 600 ohm impedance you are planning to use on or over the ear headphones. You are better off with the e12 and it is cheaper!
  
 If you have the money to burn, you could purchase the e12 DIY Limited Edition which is a beautiful amp. I was too frugal to spend ~$250 USD so I went with the e12.


----------



## Allucid

htr2d2 said:


> allucid said:
> 
> 
> > How's the E12a for full size headphones around 300-600ohm?
> ...



I want to use it for IEMs too, but thanks for the recommendations.


----------



## uchihaitachi

Seems to be many mixed opinions regarding the E12's ability to drive HD800?
  
 Could I have some feedback from people with hands on experience how they perform?


----------



## Dobrescu George

uchihaitachi said:


> Seems to be many mixed opinions regarding the E12's ability to drive HD800?
> 
> Could I have some feedback from people with hands on experience how they perform?


 
 they perform average. Depends on what you want to get from hd800. You will get an average experience, e12 can drive hd800 quite well, but there is room for improovement. At a similar price i would get [not portable solution] matrix m stage hpa2. In my experience, chord hugo was able to drive hd800 to full potential, if you want to compare the power hugo can output to what power e12a can output. 
  
 Short line, if you need a portable amp, e12 is the best possible at it's price.


----------



## Dobrescu George

I feel the need to ask, how does one carry x5+e12 stack the right way?
  
 it does not fit in my pocket.
  
 I was searching for a camera carry thingy, but i need it to be at least 15X7X4.5 in CM, and i was not able to fiind anything that would be long enough.
  
 I want to ask everyone who owns a stack, how do they carry it?


----------



## Chris J

dobrescu george said:


> they perform average. Depends on what you want to get from hd800. You will get an average experience, e12 can drive hd800 quite well, but there is room for improovement. At a similar price i would get [not portable solution] matrix m stage hpa2. In my experience, chord hugo was able to drive hd800 to full potential, if you want to compare the power hugo can output to what power e12a can output.
> 
> Short line, if you need a portable amp, e12 is the best possible at it's price.




The Matrix HPA2 is approx. twice as much $$$ as the E12.
It also sounds better than the E12, fuller, clearer, more open sounding.


----------



## x RELIC x

He said best at its price. I've heard good things about the Cayin C5, which is as powerful and around the same price. More open, fuller, etc., but haven't auditioned it myself.


----------



## Dobrescu George

chris j said:


> The Matrix HPA2 is approx. twice as much $$$ as the E12.
> It also sounds better than the E12, fuller, clearer, more open sounding.


 
 I also listened to hpa2. indeed, it is better. 
  
 Sorry, sometimes i get prices confused, as by converting the prices a few times, i loose track of what each piece costs. hpa2 is more expensive in here too, i omitted that.
  
 the main difference between the question and my answer would be that hpa2 is not portable by any means, but i would strongly advice it for hd800, instead of e12, if portability is not a concern. If one needs a portable amp, e12 is amazing considering it's price.


x relic x said:


> He said best at its price. I've heard good things about the Cayin C5, which is as powerful and around the same price. More open, fuller, etc., but haven't auditioned it myself.


 
 i had not heared c5 either, i am kind of curious. If it ever arrives in Romania, i am sure to give it a listen!
  
  
  
  
  
 About my question, i am still searching for a method of carrying a stacked x5+e12a, and did not found a solution.


----------



## Vidmaven

dobrescu george said:


> About my question, i am still searching for a method of carrying a stacked x5+e12a, and did not found a solution.


 
 Fiio makes the HS6 stacking kit specifically for the X5.
  
http://penonaudio.com/FiiO-HS6


----------



## Dobrescu George

vidmaven said:


> Fiio makes the HS6 stacking kit specifically for the X5.
> 
> http://penonaudio.com/FiiO-HS6


 
 i know that, but how does one carry the kit?
  
 i mean, in pocket they barely can get in and out, the kit is too thick for a pocket, where does everyone keep it while walking?


----------



## Hal Rockwell

dobrescu george said:


> i know that, but how does one carry the kit?
> 
> i mean, in pocket they barely can get in and out, the kit is too thick for a pocket, where does everyone keep it while walking?


 
  
Like this. Just don't remove the carabiner that comes with the case so you can hang it on your belt.


----------



## jay-w

Whenever I use the volume control I'm hearing static through my headphones/iems. Anyone else come across this?


----------



## Hijodelbrx

This has been discussed earlier. Probably happens to everybody. Try turning the volume knob back and forth for a minute or two, this works for me, should be good as new.


----------



## jay-w

That's true it does go away if I turn it a few times. Cheers.


----------



## Dobrescu George

How fast should i turn the volume up and down?


----------



## HotIce

Static noise due to volume knob is new to me. None of the two E12 I own show this artifact.


----------



## jay-w

hotice said:


> Static noise due to volume knob is new to me. None of the two E12 I own show this artifact.


 

 New to me too. It's only appeared in the last week or so. It's never been dropped and truth be told has rarely left the house. Also this is a version 1 unit.


----------



## Dobrescu George

I asked, to know what to do if it happens?
  
 maybe it kinds of rusts, or creates some sort of corrosion? Or dust?


----------



## StanD

dobrescu george said:


> I asked, to know what to do if it happens?
> 
> maybe it kinds of rusts, or creates some sort of corrosion? Or dust?


 
 Sometimes with wear some of the carbon dust gets in the way of the wiper. Swinging the knob back and forth sweeps the dust out of the  way. There should be no worries about catastrophic failures and the noise/scratching only occurs when moving the control when there is dust under the wiper or in its path.


----------



## HotIce

Open style potentiometers are more subject to dust, but ALPS are sealed, so it is more difficult that dust gets into the resistive surface.
Also the E12 is in itself a pretty tight package with little to no place for dust to easily sneak in.
Humidity, assuming this artifact suddenly showed up on an otherwise working device, could be one culprit.
I doubt this is normal wear and tear, unless that E12 volume control has seen A LOT of activity. ALPS (assuming the E12 ones are original, and not chinese knock off  ) are rated pretty high from that POV.


----------



## StanD

hotice said:


> Open style potentiometers are more subject to dust, but ALPS are sealed, so it is more difficult that dust gets into the resistive surface.
> Also the E12 is in itself a pretty tight package with little to no place for dust to easily sneak in.
> Humidity, assuming this artifact suddenly showed up on an otherwise working device, could be one culprit.
> I doubt this is normal wear and tear, unless that E12 volume control has seen A LOT of activity. ALPS (assuming the E12 ones are original, and not chinese knock off
> ...


 
 Dust can be from wear on the internal resistive element, commonly made from carbon.


----------



## Dobrescu George

Dust can also be a shape of oxydation that does not necessarly stick to the surface, some metals can get this kind of thing, making very small rough particles.


----------



## jay-w

Mine hasn't seen that much use and is a legitimate unit. A bit of Googling brings up the dust issue. I don't mind if that's the case and not a parts failure waiting to happen.
  
 Anyway if it goes it goes and then I have an excuse to upgrade.


----------



## HotIce

stand said:


> Dust can be from wear on the internal resistive element, commonly made from carbon.



 
I am not sure if ALPS have plastic or carbon resistive element, but either cases, they are guaranteed for 15K..20K full rotary cycles.
A unit showing such behavior with little use, is either a lemon, or a Made Elsewhere But Japan ALPS knock off.
ALA Amazon/eBay markets.


----------



## StanD

hotice said:


> stand said:
> 
> 
> > Dust can be from wear on the internal resistive element, commonly made from carbon.
> ...


 
 Oops, FiiO with fake Alps pots? All of my FiiO (E18 and E12) stuff seems OK.


----------



## Chris J

dobrescu george said:


> I asked, to know what to do if it happens?
> 
> maybe it kinds of rusts, or creates some sort of corrosion? Or dust?




Just turn the volume control a few times.
It should clear up after a few rotations.


----------



## Dobrescu George

chris j said:


> Just turn the volume control a few times.
> It should clear up after a few rotations.


 
 thanks!
  
 Good to know.
  
 I have e12a version, which is more or less the same knob, i was curious as mine has a pretty tight volume knob, for some reason or another. 
  
 I managed to fiind a carrying thing, that looks better than average, but looks weird on me, as it is small, and i am pretty big, it looks like a full man wearing a kid's pouch, but it does it's job well.
  

  

  


  
  
 At least, most e12 users do not need to carry it as it is made for powering more power hungry headphones.
  
 Anyways, this can be had at kenvelo stores for around 10$ in Romania, and has some space left, but fits the thing pretty tight.


----------



## Chris J

dobrescu george said:


> thanks!
> 
> Good to know.
> 
> ...




A man purse! LOL!


----------



## Dobrescu George

chris j said:


> A man purse! LOL!


 
 well.. at least it does what it is supposed to do... and it does it without much pain... the other options were way too big, and the stack would jump around in the bag, damaging the interconnects and plugs, so i decided to go for this, at least for now.


----------



## jay-w

Where's a good place online to buy LOD cables for the E12 and an iPod classic? I'm getting tired of using the amp upside down because the stupid fiio lod angles to the right. Little irritations starting to have me looking at other amp brands.


----------



## Shawn71

jay-w said:


> Where's a good place online to buy LOD cables for the E12 and and iPod classic? I'm getting tired of using the amp upside down because the stupid fiio lod angles to the right. Little irritations starting to have me looking at other amp brands.


 
 chk below, and there's one more model L9 (angled)......take a look.
  
 http://www.mp4nation.net/headphones-earphones/fiio-audio-products?p=2


----------



## jay-w

shawn71 said:


> chk below, and there's one more model L9 (angled)......take a look.
> 
> http://www.mp4nation.net/headphones-earphones/fiio-audio-products?p=2


 

 Thanks buddy but I've got the L9  and it angles to the right so that if the amp is right side up the lod curves around the volume knob. I need something that angles to the left.


----------



## htr2d2

chris j said:


> A man purse! LOL!


 

 Shhh..
  
 It is an audiophile accessory.


----------



## Dobrescu George

htr2d2 said:


> Shhh..
> 
> It is an audiophile accessory.


 
 well, my wife told me that the purse is pretty manly, it is funny only because it is extremely small but it does a decent job at what it does.


----------



## StanD

dobrescu george said:


> well, my wife told me that the purse is pretty manly, it is funny only because it is extremely small but it does a decent job at what it does.


 
 Next time, get one in pink.


----------



## imackler

Any rumors of an E12K, E12ii, etc.? I would like to have the sound of the E12A with the power of the E12...


----------



## Dobrescu George

stand said:


> Next time, get one in pink.


 
 Might as well...
  
 I really do not understand what would be the wrong side with using a bag to carry a stack?..
  
 I hardly see any better solution. I am a 1.8M, 80kg muscular man, i do not necessarly feel different about wearing such a thing, it is more practical than everything else i had found within stores. most side bags for men were big enough for the stack to jump around, and this might degrade cables, and camera bags were too small to accomodate the kit. something Hama came close, but it was too close to being at the limit, it was touching the cables at the top, and pushing them a little. i preffer having a more relaxed solution. 
  
 I might search for a sidebag that is small, but it would still look close to a purse because it would be extremely small. having a bag too large would make the kit jump around. which is wrong.


imackler said:


> Any rumors of an E12K, E12ii, etc.? I would like to have the sound of the E12A with the power of the E12...


 
 This is something i would really wish... but on second thought, only if the gain has a 12 DB button, because i can only use a very little of e12a volume with my sennheiser ie8. having even more volume might be overkill, even more as at the begging of the road, the volume has some channel imbalance.


----------



## StanD

dobrescu george said:


> Might as well...
> 
> I really do not understand what would be the wrong side with using a bag to carry a stack?..
> 
> ...


 
 Wear it with a matching pink shirt. I would forget about the jokes and teasing, focus on the music.


----------



## Dobrescu George

stand said:


> Wear it with a matching pink shirt. I would forget about the jokes and teasing, focus on the music.


 
 But does it look so bad? i mean asking it... i mean... i really tried to fiind something... in Romania, we do not have all kinds of bags... the only other one that fit the x5 was flimsy, but if this is looking bad, i think i will buy the other one...
  
 I am the type of man that has lots of things to do and most people i can ask personally will not say that something is wrong, even it it were... i think...


----------



## StanD

dobrescu george said:


> But does it look so bad? i mean asking it... i mean... i really tried to fiind something... in Romania, we do not have all kinds of bags... the only other one that fit the x5 was flimsy, but if this is looking bad, i think i will buy the other one...
> 
> I am the type of man that has lots of things to do and most people i can ask personally will not say that something is wrong, even it it were... i think...


 
 It looks fine. If you wan't to see something wierd, you should look at some hip hopper wearing a pair of bright red Beats headphones and untied running shoes with their underwear hanging out.


----------



## Dobrescu George

stand said:


> It looks fine. If you wan't to see something wierd, you should look at some hip hopper wearing a pair of bright red Beats headphones and untied running shoes with their underwear hanging out.


 
 okay, that is not exactly the thing i wanted to imagine before going to sleep.
  
  
  
 I am mostly a black costume with tie or elegant shirt and straight or tight dark jeans dude... I imagined i should had gotten something that was at least closer to having some kind of weird charm than a cheap sidebag that might break.. I really like being a music enthusiast, and it kind of colors my entire character, but i really was afraid that my purse for stack could had looked totally wrong, i hate looking wrong, i had long hair, until mid of my back for about 7 years, and cut it about 6 months ago, when i started working in buisness enviroment.
  
  
 Now, i know that we should be as acceptable of others as possible, but i really have something against dudes that wear jeans below.. well, nevermind it is wrong, not only because it should be against the law, but it can be quite the traumatic experience for a kid to see something like that. This is not being ignorant, but it is trying to be as coherent as possible.


----------



## StanD

dobrescu george said:


> okay, that is not exactly the thing i wanted to imagine before going to sleep.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I guess that a dog collar and spikes are out. You worry too much.


----------



## Dobrescu George

stand said:


> I guess that a dog collar and spikes are out. You worry too much.


 
 Maybe... sorry for shaming myself in such a fasion, but i am quite clueless when it comes to such things.
  
 thanks for the kind conversation!


----------



## waynes world

dobrescu george said:


> I am mostly a black costume with tie or elegant shirt and straight or tight dark jeans dude... I imagined i should had gotten something that was at least closer to having some kind of weird charm than a cheap sidebag that might break.. I really like being a music enthusiast, and it kind of colors my entire character, but i really was afraid that my purse for stack could had looked totally wrong, i hate looking wrong, i had long hair, until mid of my back for about 7 years, and cut it about 6 months ago, when i started working in buisness enviroment.


 
  
 The one you found looks fine. This one would have been wrong lol:


----------



## Chris J

waynes world said:


> The one you found looks fine. This one would have been wrong lol:


 
 Yep.
 That's just wrong!


----------



## StanD

chris j said:


> Yep.
> That's just wrong!


 
 I'd send that in for a dye job. Hot pink?


----------



## Chris J

stand said:


> I'd send that in for a dye job. Hot pink?




On further thought, the hand bag is OK with me, assuming he has matching shoes.


----------



## Dobrescu George

stand said:


> I'd send that in for a dye job. Hot pink?


 
  


chris j said:


> On further thought, the hand bag is OK with me, assuming he has matching shoes.


 
 Okay, that was plain funny.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 So, i guess that i would actually need to stress less, no?


----------



## Chris J

dobrescu george said:


> Okay, that was plain funny.
> 
> So, i guess that i would actually need to stress less, no?




I wouldn't worry about it.
European men dress neater than North American men.
North Americans dress like slobs in public compared to Europeans.


----------



## caml

Yeah man you should stress less about what other people think of your looks. Seeing the replies, I'm guessing that "man purse" thing is probably country dependant. Over here lots of guys have purses or small bags to hold their wallet, phone, cash, etc. Particularly during summer when you can't stuff all that in your coat. I sometimes carry one. My grand father carried a brown leather one his whole life and no one would ever have questioned his manliness. As long as it has masculine colours, fabric and shape I doubt anyone would notice.


----------



## Dobrescu George

caml said:


> Yeah man you should stress less about what other people think of your looks. Seeing the replies, I'm guessing that "man purse" thing is probably country dependant. Over here lots of guys have purses or small bags to hold their wallet, phone, cash, etc. Particularly during summer when you can't stuff all that in your coat. I sometimes carry one. My grand father carried a brown leather one his whole life and no one would ever have questioned his manliness. As long as it has masculine colours, fabric and shape I doubt anyone would notice.


 
 thanks


chris j said:


> I wouldn't worry about it.
> European men dress neater than North American men.
> North Americans dress like slobs in public compared to Europeans.


 
 thanks
  
  
  
 truth is that i actually liked the fact that i was able to got a thing that look like it could take a beating...
  
 all until today, when i actually used it outside...
  
 Next ideea of mine would be that if i buy something to carry the stack in, it should not be so thick, the stack ran kind of hot because it could not disspate heat. I am going to use this until i will fiind something that fits better the needed description, but most of other stuff for carrying are too flimsy, seem like they would break easily


----------



## imackler

If anyone has an experience in comparing the following, do you prefer the E12, E12 DIY (Stock) or E12A w/ the HD600 or HD650? Fiio rates all of them up to 300ohms, but I see their power output varies a bit. Thanks! (I'll ask on the other threads as well.)


----------



## StanD

imackler said:


> If anyone has an experience in comparing the following, do you prefer the E12, E12 DIY (Stock) or E12A w/ the HD600 or HD650? Fiio rates all of them up to 300ohms, but I see their power output varies a bit. Thanks! (I'll ask on the other threads as well.)


 
 So how many people do you think have had all three at the same time to be able to A/B them? I have a E12 and HD600, they work well together. I'd pick the amp that has the greatest voltage swing (Vp-p) at the best price, which is probably the vanilla E12.


----------



## imackler

stand said:


> So how many people do you think have had all three at the same time to be able to A/B them? I have a E12 and HD600, they work well together. I'd pick the amp that has the greatest voltage swing (Vp-p) at the best price, which is probably the vanilla E12.


 
  
 I don't really know how many people have all three; I know of at least one beadfier. Some people may have two of them though and have A/B'd; I'd be happy to hear their impressions. I find that many people on Headfi like to do such comparisons!
  
 Glad you like the E12!


----------



## Dobrescu George

imackler said:


> I don't really know how many people have all three; I know of at least one beadfier. Some people may have two of them though and have A/B'd; I'd be happy to hear their impressions. I find that many people on Headfi like to do such comparisons!
> 
> Glad you like the E12!


 
 I did an in-depth comparation. as i said on the other thread, e12a is more worth it.
  
 E12 is great for hd800 and the few harder to drive, but even then, i would like an e12a more, it has a particular sound, with more soundstage.
  
 To continue this here, as your hd600 and hd650 need a little more power, how do you want them to sound? e12a is colorless, where e12 is colorless, but kind of has a smaller soundstage and not such a black background. though, with hd600 and 650, i was not able to really tell that e12 had a colored background. with 64 ohm ultrasone dj one pro, i was able to tell that e12a has a blacker background.


----------



## StanD

dobrescu george said:


> I did an in-depth comparation. as i said on the other thread, e12a is more worth it.
> 
> E12 is great for hd800 and the few harder to drive, but even then, i would like an e12a more, it has a particular sound, with more soundstage.
> 
> To continue this here, as your hd600 and hd650 need a little more power, how do you want them to sound? e12a is colorless, where e12 is colorless, but kind of has a smaller soundstage and not such a black background. though, with hd600 and 650, i was not able to really tell that e12 had a colored background. with 64 ohm ultrasone dj one pro, i was able to tell that e12a has a blacker background.


 
 What property of an amp affects soundstage? Soundstage is recorded spacial cues, it is affected by the source material and headphones.


----------



## Dobrescu George

stand said:


> What property of an amp affects soundstage? Soundstage is recorded spacial cues, it is affected by the source material and headphones.


 
 With both sennheiser ie8 and ultrasone dj one pro i get more soundstage. this is also reported by most users of e12a. i think that the black background is responsible for this? maybe it has a way of pushing mids back [uneven presentation]?
  
 Maybe it is truly colorless while other amps i tried colored the music, which given the sensation of less soundstage.
  
 I cannot say what exactly is soundstage, or how an amp affects it, i am the most skeptickal person in the world when it comes to something like this, but after i heared it, it was impossible to say it was not this way.
  
 I know how localization of sound and brain works in depth, but i am clueless as to why e12a has more soundstage, i can only say that it should not, but with my headphones/iems it has.


----------



## StanD

dobrescu george said:


> With both sennheiser ie8 and ultrasone dj one pro i get more soundstage. this is also reported by most users of e12a. i think that the black background is responsible for this? maybe it has a way of pushing mids back [uneven presentation]?
> 
> Maybe it is truly colorless while other amps i tried colored the music, which given the sensation of less soundstage.
> 
> ...


 
 The problem is that human Echoic memory is very short, on the order of a scant few seconds, so the comparison of fine details can only be done with a fast A/B using a switch. As I sais soundstage is based upon recorded spacial cues, thsi is something that an amp does not change, A change in treble response can affect our perceptoin of these cues, however, amps have a flat FR and no discernable phase shifts. Expectation bias, suggestion, etc are human properties that can make us believe.
 The electronics here are very simple, no magical properties.


----------



## Dobrescu George

stand said:


> The problem is that human Echoic memory is very short, on the order of a scant few seconds, so the comparison of fine details can only be done with a fast A/B using a switch. As I sais soundstage is based upon recorded spacial cues, thsi is something that an amp does not change, A change in treble response can affect our perceptoin of these cues, however, amps have a flat FR and no discernable phase shifts. Expectation bias, suggestion, etc are human properties that can make us believe.
> The electronics here are very simple, no magical properties.


 
 the difference is not fine, it is quite big, and entire notes sound different than on e12. Portions of songs have a total different tonality, but i cannot say which one is colored and which is not. maybe both are coloured, but in a different way, a total flat response amp is impossble to create, as i remember.
  
 Both are great pieces of kit, imho, and each has it's use.
  
 But e12 is far more fiable for iems, as most sources have some hiss, and e12a is totally silent. this really makes ie8 shine, with e12 or x5 alone i get enough hiss.
  
 Also, both e12 and e12a seem to have better interferrence rejection, as with x5 in my pocket, if i do not stack it i get bad interferrence from my smartphone.


----------



## StanD

dobrescu george said:


> the difference is not fine, it is quite big, and entire notes sound different than on e12. Portions of songs have a total different tonality, but i cannot say which one is colored and which is not. maybe both are coloured, but in a different way, a total flat response amp is impossble to create, as i remember.
> 
> Both are great pieces of kit, imho, and each has it's use.
> 
> ...


 
 Differences in noise I can believe in, however, soundstage not. You haven't defined the property that affects soundstage.


----------



## Dobrescu George

stand said:


> Differences in noise I can believe in, however, soundstage not. You haven't defined the property that affects soundstage.


 
 i do not contradict you, maybe it is not about soundstage but noise. Maybe soundstage is what i hear now, with a black background. On IEMs the noise really destroys soundstage.


----------



## pietcux

imackler said:


> If anyone has an experience in comparing the following, do you prefer the E12, E12 DIY (Stock) or E12A w/ the HD600 or HD650? Fiio rates all of them up to 300ohms, but I see their power output varies a bit. Thanks! (I'll ask on the other threads as well.)


 

 I had all three untill two weeks ago. I sold the DIY because I am too lazy to exchange opamps and buffs. I bought the E12a which is the result of many DIY owners dremeling the aluminum shell of the DIY down so the the Muses opamps would fit. I got the result without dremeling myself. How do they compare? All three can drive the HD650 and HD700 with authority and all can be used on low gain doing so. My volume pot setting with my Ipod Classic LOD (European capped version) is between 10 and 12 o'clock. Again on low gain. The standard E12 is the loudest, but only by a half hour  regarding the volume pot position. Sound wise the differences do not stand a real blind test for me. Honestly, go get the standard if you like black or silver, go get the E12A if you prefer gunmetal. It is that easy. I take the one that is charged with me when I go to work.


----------



## Heyandress7

I have a question, what's your preferred cable to use with this amp? Mine makes noise if I'm moving too much.


----------



## Dobrescu George

heyandress7 said:


> I have a question, what's your preferred cable to use with this amp? Mine makes noise if I'm moving too much.


 
 this should not happen..
  
 what headphones/iems do you use?
  
 I would rather think that it is because of the headphones/iems?


----------



## Heyandress7

dobrescu george said:


> this should not happen..
> 
> what headphones/iems do you use?
> 
> I would rather think that it is because of the headphones/iems?




I have the Mad Dogs


----------



## Dobrescu George

heyandress7 said:


> I have the Mad Dogs


 
 those are not microphonic either... what type of noise do you get if you move too much?


----------



## reddog

dobrescu george said:


> those are not microphonic either... what type of noise do you get if you move too much?



I use my E12 to drive my Alpha Prime's, and I do not get any microphonics when I walk around the waiting rooms of doctor offices. The most annoying thing to happen, is people in the waiting room, think my rig some how belongs to the doc and want there own headphone lol. I till them politely to get on the internet and order themselves some good headphones and a good portable amp, but to let me wait in quiet.


----------



## Heyandress7

dobrescu george said:


> those are not microphonic either... what type of noise do you get if you move too much?


 

I have the Fiio L8 cable, if I move too much that cable inside my pocket it makes noise in my headphones, I was just asking if there was something like the V-Moda cable the Mad Dogs come with that is more flexible


----------



## Dobrescu George

heyandress7 said:


> I have the Fiio L8 cable, if I move too much that cable inside my pocket it makes noise in my headphones, I was just asking if there was something like the V-Moda cable the Mad Dogs come with that is more flexible


 
 ... I do not know of any. 
  
 I wonder if you should ask the same question on the mad dogs threads?... 
  
 As i stated before, the noise should not be coming from the interconnect, the worst case scenario it is coming from headphone cables. 
  
 If it comes from the interconnect cable, even though it would be the first time, you can buy fiio l16/l17, or more expensive products, but i advice against as interconnects make the least of a difference in my experience.


----------



## Heyandress7

dobrescu george said:


> ... I do not know of any.
> 
> I wonder if you should ask the same question on the mad dogs threads?...
> 
> ...




Thanks for the help. I was looking at the fiio L17 cable and was wondering if it is of the same material as the L8 I currently have.


----------



## Dobrescu George

heyandress7 said:


> Thanks for the help. I was looking at the fiio L17 cable and was wondering if it is of the same material as the L8 I currently have.


 
 The inner part is exactly the same. 
  
 I tested (interconnects) from cheap L8 to L17 to some more expensive ones, no difference in sound quality so far. Maybe i should had done something differently, but for me it was the same.


----------



## StanD

heyandress7 said:


> Thanks for the help. I was looking at the fiio L17 cable and was wondering if it is of the same material as the L8 I currently have.


 
 Perhaps your cable is defective or the jack on either side of the interconnect is dirty.


----------



## Heyandress7

stand said:


> Perhaps your cable is defective or the jack on either side of the interconnect is dirty.




Probably, if there was a smaller V-Moda audio only cable which is more flexible than the Fiio cable..


----------



## Shawn71

dobrescu george said:


> ... I do not know of any.
> 
> I wonder if you should ask the same question on the mad dogs threads?...
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yes unless otherwise one/both of the 3.5mm jack fails and produces static or cut sound if wiggled.......
  


heyandress7 said:


> Thanks for the help. I was looking at the fiio L17 cable and was wondering if it is of the same material as the L8 I currently have.


 
 Yes they are PCOCC-A material internally but the outer jacket/sheath is black on L8 (TPE) and L17 is kinda transparent.....and L16/L17 cables are nicely built other than that it's no difference, imo......if you want I can give a link for the IC which is so cheap but built like a tank and can take any abuse for long......
  


stand said:


> Perhaps your cable is defective or the jack on either side of the interconnect is dirty.


 
 +1....


----------



## Heyandress7

Yes 





shawn71 said:


> Yes unless otherwise one/both of the 3.5mm jack fails and produces static or cut sound if wiggled.......
> 
> Yes they are PCOCC-A material internally but the outer jacket/sheath is black on L8 (TPE) and L17 is kinda transparent.....and L16/L17 cables are nicely built other than that it's no difference, imo......if you want I can give a link for the IC which is so cheap but built like a tank and can take any abuse for long......
> 
> +1....



Yes is you would be so kind to give me the link, or else I'm gonna buy the L17 just to try it


----------



## Shawn71

heyandress7 said:


> Yes is you would be so kind to give me the link, or else I'm gonna buy the L17 just to try it


 
  
 There you go.....I finally ended up buying this after my 2 L8s bit the dust after reasonable abuse,tbh.....I still have one left from one of my FiiO toys being they are angled (L8), as a backup. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-shipping-15cm-old-KIMBER-KABLE-silver-plated-3-5-to-3-5mm-Headphone-Amp-Interconnects/1604382393.html


----------



## Dobrescu George

shawn71 said:


> There you go.....I finally ended up buying this after my 2 L8s bit the dust after reasonable abuse,tbh.....I still have one left from one of my FiiO toys being they are angled (L8), as a backup.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 That is a good looking cable. I am almost interested as it looks sturdy, but it has the disadvantage of having quite big plugs, meaning that it could fit weird with fiio x5 or e12...


----------



## Shawn71

dobrescu george said:


> That is a good looking cable. I am almost interested as it looks sturdy, but it has the disadvantage of having quite big plugs, meaning that it could fit weird with fiio x5 or e12...


 
 Absolutely agree with you skerry, the cable also bit long,a little trade-off, but it's okay when it comes to build and durability.....
  
 if you cld buy something else along with this ultra short IC it's also a good buy, if being shipped internationally......
  
 https://www.jdslabs.com/products/146/ultra-short-3-5mm-interconnect-cable/


----------



## Heyandress7

shawn71 said:


> Absolutely agree with you skerry, the cable also bit long,a little trade-off, but it's okay when it comes to build and durability.....
> 
> if you cld buy something else along with this ultra short IC it's also a good buy, if being shipped internationally......
> 
> https://www.jdslabs.com/products/146/ultra-short-3-5mm-interconnect-cable/


 

I have never ordered from there and have no idea what else to buy.


----------



## Heyandress7

shawn71 said:


> Absolutely agree with you skerry, the cable also bit long,a little trade-off, but it's okay when it comes to build and durability.....
> 
> if you cld buy something else along with this ultra short IC it's also a good buy, if being shipped internationally......
> 
> https://www.jdslabs.com/products/146/ultra-short-3-5mm-interconnect-cable/



Do you own it? 
Any pics?


----------



## Shawn71

heyandress7 said:


> Do you own it?
> Any pics?


----------



## Heyandress7

shawn71 said:


>




That's the one from Ali express. 
Looks nice


----------



## StanD

Keep in mind if the plug on your interconnect is too thick at the base it might not make it through the outer protective case of your smartphone to connect properly.


----------



## Shawn71

heyandress7 said:


> That's the one from Ali express.
> Looks nice


 

 err my bad,thought you asked for the Paillics, Yeah, no JDS cable yet....but that's really so cute.


----------



## Heyandress7

True it won't fit.
JDS cable looks like it won't move too much inside my pockets


----------



## Larryp12

I have the x5 + e12 stack and I carry them in the side pocket of my backpack. I use the stack to drive my Sennheiser HD 650s when traveling. Otherwise, I use the x5 (solo) for my in-ears and ATH M50x.


----------



## Heyandress7

larryp12 said:


> I have the x5 + e12 stack and I carry them in the side pocket of my backpack. I use the stack to drive my Sennheiser HD 650s when traveling. Otherwise, I use the x5 (solo) for my in-ears and ATH M50x.




I just need a good rubber band to hold them together, fiio sell something for the x3 I'll look into that


----------



## Shawn71

larryp12 said:


> I have the x5 + e12 stack and I carry them in the side pocket of my backpack. I use the stack to drive my *Sennheiser HD 650s when traveling*. Otherwise, I use the x5 (solo) for my in-ears and ATH M50x.


 
 So you make the others near you entertained too?.....


----------



## Larryp12

I use the HD650s after work, usually in my hotel room. I would like to find a really good closed-back headphone though.


----------



## Dobrescu George

larryp12 said:


> I use the HD650s after work, usually in my hotel room. I would like to find a really good closed-back headphone though.


 
 Similar to hd650?... This would be hard. I am kind of very fond of closed back as i cannot own open back, and there is nothing so forgiving and easy to listen as hd650... 
  
 The closest thing to my ears was he-560, but they are open too...
  
 On second thought, they sound different, but very forgiving, yet very detailed and can be driven from x5+e12, Audeze LCD-XC closed back and audeze EL8 closed back. They have a different signature, but similar to hd650, it is dark, very forgiving, very easy to listen to, and the entire sound is very musical and calming. Both can be driven to full potential by x5+e12, maybe even by x5 alone if you ask me. For me, at least, they sounded great using this portable rig...


----------



## x RELIC x

dobrescu george said:


> Similar to hd650?... This would be hard. I am kind of very fond of closed back as i cannot own open back, and there is nothing so forgiving and easy to listen as hd650...
> 
> The closest thing to my ears was he-560, but they are not open...
> 
> On second thought, they sound different, but very forgiving, yet very detailed and can be driven from x5+e12, Audeze LCD-XC closed back and audeze EL8 closed back. They have a different signature, but similar to hd650, it is dark, very forgiving, very easy to listen to, and the entire sound is very musical and calming. Both can be driven to full potential by x5+e12, maybe even by x5 alone if you ask me. For me, at least, they sounded great using this portable rig...




LCD-XC from the X5 / e12 stack is good, but not full potential.


----------



## StanD

dobrescu george said:


> Similar to hd650?... This would be hard. I am kind of very fond of closed back as i cannot own open back, and there is nothing so forgiving and easy to listen as hd650...
> 
> *The closest thing to my ears was he-560, but they are not open*...
> 
> On second thought, they sound different, but very forgiving, yet very detailed and can be driven from x5+e12, Audeze LCD-XC closed back and audeze EL8 closed back. They have a different signature, but similar to hd650, it is dark, very forgiving, very easy to listen to, and the entire sound is very musical and calming. Both can be driven to full potential by x5+e12, maybe even by x5 alone if you ask me. For me, at least, they sounded great using this portable rig...


 
 Both the HD650 and HE-560 are open back.


----------



## Larryp12

I don't think I'll find a closed-back that sounds similar to the HD650. I'm hoping that the Audeze el-8 closed-back sounds good. I'd like to get another headphone for Xmas.


----------



## howdy

larryp12 said:


> I don't think I'll find a closed-back that sounds similar to the HD650. I'm hoping that the Audeze el-8 closed-back sounds good. I'd like to get another headphone for Xmas.



Have you checked out the Oppo PM3? Its a great sounding closed back planar headphone.


----------



## Dobrescu George

stand said:


> Both the HD650 and HE-560 are open back.


 
 Sorry, i meant that they are not closed back... \I was feeling sleepy...


----------



## Dobrescu George

larryp12 said:


> I don't think I'll find a closed-back that sounds similar to the HD650. I'm hoping that the Audeze el-8 closed-back sounds good. I'd like to get another headphone for Xmas.


 
 The closest sounding, to me was LCD-XC from audeze. Audeze el-8 has a different signature, which is very good too!


----------



## Feelthebeat

What does a flashing blue led mean with the E12? I get that when I turn it on, not sure if it is busted or charged too poorly with the mobile charger I used over night (5v 1.5A from wall socket). I've used it less than 15 hours so it would suck if is a warranty issue already...


----------



## Joe Bloggs

Have you tried disconnecting it from the charging, turning it off and then back on?


----------



## Feelthebeat

joe bloggs said:


> Have you tried disconnecting it from the charging, turning it off and then back on?


 
  
 yupp, it's dead without the charger 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Typical of my luck to get a monday example from the FiiO factory...


----------



## Dobrescu George

I was looking today for something to carry a fiio x5 + fiio e12a stack when I am not using them. Basically I carry them in a backpack, and I also have to carry sennheiser ie800. 
  
 I had found very hard plastic cases for food. I think that those are the best for carrying stacks when not in usage, to proect against wear from being in a backpack.
  
 This way I am able to acomodate everything, protect everything and all for 2$. I wonder why would anyone bother to buy a pelican case, which is typically 10$-30$, sometimes more, when you can buy plastic cases for food, which are about the same durity as pelican, but a very little fraction of the price.


----------



## Chris J

Because the E12 and X5 are not food.....


----------



## Shawn71

dobrescu george said:


> I was looking today for something to carry a fiio x5 + fiio e12a stack when I am not using them. Basically I carry them in a backpack, and I also have to carry sennheiser ie800.
> 
> I had found very hard plastic cases for food. I think that those are the best for carrying stacks when not in usage, to proect against wear from being in a backpack.
> 
> This way I am able to acomodate everything, protect everything and all for 2$. I wonder why would anyone bother to buy a pelican case, which is typically 10$-30$, sometimes more, when you can buy plastic cases for food, which are about the same durity as pelican, but a very little fraction of the price.


 

 Well, if you accidentally sit on it or foot on it, do you still believe that plastic cld withstand the impact?.....


----------



## Joe Bloggs

feelthebeat said:


> joe bloggs said:
> 
> 
> > Have you tried disconnecting it from the charging, turning it off and then back on?
> ...




Hello Feelthebeat,

Not sure if it can be fixed on your end but I'd certainly recommend you take advantage of any early return policy with your retailer at this point 

Sorry about the unit.

Best regards,
Joe


----------



## Feelthebeat

joe bloggs said:


> Hello Feelthebeat,
> 
> Not sure if it can be fixed on your end but I'd certainly recommend you take advantage of any early return policy with your retailer at this point
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yupp, I'm sending it for a replacement. Pretty impressed over how smoothly it was handled by FiiO  Just hoping it'll reach it's destination, seemed easy to lose mail in china.


----------



## ducatirob

headzone said:


> I don't see why not. HD600 is easy to drive. High impedance but pretty sensitive.
> 
> E12 has enough power too.


----------



## ducatirob

Any battery powered amps with more power?


----------



## oldmate

ducatirob said:


> Any battery powered amps with more power?


 
 http://www.ibasso.com/products-detail.php?id=87
  
 I have their D6. They make great amps.


----------



## bms44974

The small cable connecting my E12 and X3 has developed a short. Can anyone recommend a source for a replacement? Thanks... Brian


----------



## HotIce

bms44974 said:


> The small cable connecting my E12 and X3 has developed a short. Can anyone recommend a source for a replacement? Thanks... Brian



 
I am pretty sure FIIO sells it.


----------



## howdy

bms44974 said:


> The small cable connecting my E12 and X3 has developed a short. Can anyone recommend a source for a replacement? Thanks... Brian



 

I would just hit up amazon, there are tons out there. Also JDS labs has a really short one on there website and its only 5 bucks..


----------



## HotIce

Here:

http://www.amazon.com/Cable-Stereo-Right-Angle-3-5mm/dp/B005EV38AE


----------



## gonzfi

Can anyone comment on whether or not the original e12 can run the Beyer t1 and the shure 1540 sufficiently? Many thanks.


----------



## HotIce

There are very few portable HP amplifiers around, more powerful than the E12. It has a 15+V peak-to-peak swing, and can sink 250mA continuously (500mA peak), per channel.
I would not worry at all, in both cases.
Basically, unless you are trying to drive an HP whose drivers are made by plywood, the E12 should cover it.


----------



## rhythm is life

Hey everyone,
  
 I managed to tweak the E12 bass boost curve using a little subtractive EQ. I used the Golden Ears Accudio app on my iPod as it utilizes a useful frequency graph that illustrates what you're cutting/boosting. I also used the E12 bass boost frequency graph on fiio.net as a reference. Here's what I came up with:
  

  

 Step 1: E12 bass boost frequency response
  
 Now to get rid of that bloated mid bass, I introduced a -3 dB cut at 125 Hz (2.5 oct bandwidth). The resulting cut after the curve looks like this:
  

  
  
 Step 2: Revised bass boost (green line) after 125 Hz cut (blue line).
  
 As you can see, this bass boost is much more sub-bass focused. It fills in the low end of my Sennheiser HD600 nicely and coaxes some impressive, powerful yet controlled sub-bass out of my AKG K545. With the K545, I was wishing for an intermediate gain setting with the E12 because I had to apply a pre-cut for the software EQ bass boost I was using. Now I can run full volume on 0 gain, which is plenty with the efficient AKGs. Hardware EQ FTW!


----------



## oldmate

hotice said:


> There are very few portable HP amplifiers around, more powerful than the E12. It has a 15+V peak-to-peak swing, and can sink 250mA continuously (500mA peak), per channel.
> I would not worry at all, in both cases.
> Basically, unless you are trying to drive an HP whose drivers are made by plywood, the E12 should cover it.


 
 There is this;
  
 http://www.ibasso.com/products-detail.php?id=87
  

  
 Allows you to go balanced as well. I would confidently say it would stomp all over the E12 but naturally it is at a higher price point.


----------



## Feelthebeat

Hi guys!
  
 Anyone got any experience with sending their E12 to FiiO for warranty replacement? 
  
 I sent mine june 19th and it's been stuck saying

19-Jun-2015 08:25Arrival Import customsBEIJING
  
 since the 19th as you can see? I've heard from sneaking around on forums that it can take months for stuff to get sent out from china, but is it the same going into China? 
  
 Any thoughts?


----------



## Dobrescu George

feelthebeat said:


> Hi guys!
> 
> Anyone got any experience with sending their E12 to FiiO for warranty replacement?
> 
> ...


 
 That is quite bad. 
  
 What type of shipping did you use when you sent?


----------



## Feelthebeat

EMS 


dobrescu george said:


> That is quite bad.
> 
> What type of shipping did you use when you sent?


 
  
 I sent it as en EMS package.
  
 EDIT, hahaha, speaking of the devil, between my last message and now I get an email from Fii0 confirming that the package has arrived  Happy days are here again


----------



## Dobrescu George

feelthebeat said:


> EMS
> 
> I sent it as en EMS package.
> 
> EDIT, hahaha, speaking of the devil, between my last message and now I get an email from Fii0 confirming that the package has arrived  Happy days are here again


 
 Great!
  
 I hope that you will receive a good, working one, and that you will be happy with it!


----------



## Feelthebeat

dobrescu george said:


> Great!
> 
> I hope that you will receive a good, working one, and that you will be happy with it!


 
 Me too my fellow FiiO friend, me too. But I will be super paranoid about it breaking again. Probably won't dare to charge it from the wall socket and only use the usb even if it takes all night, I'm suspecting that some surge spike from the wall socket killed it last time.


----------



## Hijodelbrx

feelthebeat said:


> Me too my fellow FiiO friend, me too. But I will be super paranoid about it breaking again. Probably won't dare to charge it from the wall socket and only use the usb even if it takes all night, I'm suspecting that some surge spike from the wall socket killed it last time.


 

 Of course you should do what you feel is best, but I've been charging mine solely from the wall for over a year without a problem.


----------



## Feelthebeat

Is there anything considered unsafe conduct when using a portable amp? Like beginning using it out of the box (or any other time when it has very low batteries) whilst charging it via usb etc? Using it at high volume output for longer periods, or anything?


----------



## Dobrescu George

feelthebeat said:


> Is there anything considered unsafe conduct when using a portable amp? Like beginning using it out of the box (or any other time when it has very low batteries) whilst charging it via usb etc? Using it at high volume output for longer periods, or anything?


 
 It is better to not use while charging. 
  
 It is better to charge before first usage.
  
 It is better to use a safe power supply.
  
 It is safe to use at any volumes, as long as you can cool it off. For example, if it runs too hot to the touch, you should stop using it. This can be solved by keeping it in a cool envoirment, and/ or not keeping it in a bag, or in direct sunlight. 
  
 It is not safe to drop it.
  
 It is counter-productive to double amp a signal.


----------



## Feelthebeat

dobrescu george said:


> It is better to not use while charging.
> 
> It is better to charge before first usage.
> 
> It is better to use a safe power supply.


 
  
 Thanks for the feedback, I'm considering using this with the original cable for charging, seems optimal? If the text in the pic is too small, it says "5.25 V, 2.1A" output .


----------



## Dobrescu George

I think that it was limited to 5V, and 5.25 could burn the charging circuit. 
  
 You should power from laptop or computer USB port, if not sure.


----------



## Feelthebeat

dobrescu george said:


> I think that it was limited to 5V, and 5.25 could burn the charging circuit.
> 
> You should power from laptop or computer USB port, if not sure.


 
 Yeah, I am using my computer at this time. I have another adapter for my mobile that is 5.0V and 1500mA, maybe should use that one instead.


----------



## Dobrescu George

feelthebeat said:


> Yeah, I am using my computer at this time. I have another adapter for my mobile that is 5.0V and 1500mA, maybe should use that one instead.


 
 To play safe, yes. I am using a 1000ma and 5.0V phone charger, and it works good.


----------



## alert426

Wow it has good spec.. Also design looks good!


----------



## rhythm is life

Does anyone have any idea how the crossfeed circuit changes the frequency response? I like having the option to use with Spotify or any other time I'm not using Neutron Music Player with its built-in crossfeed, but the E12's crossfeed seriously kills the high frequencies. I was thinking about getting a Fiio X5ii and balancing out the crossfeed FR with the equalizer, but right now I think Neutron on my old iTouch is the way to go, even if its DAC is not the highest quality. I just don't understand why these "audiophile" music players lack the sound adjustability that consumer-oriented players have.


----------



## x RELIC x

Crossfeed overlaps the signal slightly from the right and left channels. Good for older tracks that have hard panning to one side, like many songs from The Beatles for example. It usually sounds very odd to hear an instrument or a voice on just one side so the crossfeed helps with this. If you don't need it for this application then leave it off as crossfeed will flatten the imaging on most regular stereo music that has better channel balance.


----------



## rhythm is life

I'm familiar with the basic concepts of crossfeed, personally I leave it on all the time as it doesn't mess with the FR too much with the moderate settings I use (650 hz lowpass, -6 to -7 db crossfeed level depending on the headphones I use). These settings are for Neutron and foobar2000, which share a similar crossfeed implementation, if not the same. With the E12, the crossfeed seems more extreme, like the lowpass is set at a higher frequency and the crossfeed level is set closer to 0 db. It's really a shame, as a more subtle (adjustable if possible) crossfeed on the E12 and parametric EQ on the X3/X5 would be enough to make the E12/X series an endgame portable rig for me.


----------



## The Walrus

I noticed that there is balance mismatch with the volume knob of my E12 . Left channel volume is slightly higher than right below 50%. 
 When I use low gain, I need to go as high as 100% volume sometimes. I do just fine with low gain, which solves my problem, but in some cases I need high gain. (My headphone is a bit hard to drive)
 Any advises?


----------



## HotIce

I have two E12 and none has the imbalance issue. That being said, especially with small form factor pots, imbalance can be pretty bad, even on ALPS (assuming they are original  ).
Nothing you can do, besides playing with gain to keep the pot in the balanced area.
Not sure if you can claim warranty for that.


----------



## JamesBr

alert426 said:


> Wow it has good spec.. Also design looks good!


 
 +1


----------



## bombjoke

Another power question- does it use less power if the input is silent? That is, if I pause my clipzip, it has auto off but e12 doesn't. Will it drop to consume only minimally, or pretty much give regular life (12hrs? ) even if it's amplifying silence?

Also, if I recharge after only 50% depletion, Will i negatively affect the capacity?


----------



## HotIce

Your main "no sound" consumption is come from the idle current from the op-amps and buffer.
It's about 5.5mA for the LME49710 plus 7.5mA for the LME49600, per channel. Plus, other circuitry leakages (the voltage boost charge pump, the relay on the HP output, etc...).
So yes, it does not go in sleep mode with no input signal.


----------



## CountryBoy

bombjoke said:


> Another power question- does it use less power if the input is silent? That is, if I pause my clipzip, it has auto off but e12 doesn't. Will it drop to consume only minimally, or pretty much give regular life (12hrs? ) even if it's amplifying silence?
> 
> Also, if I recharge after only 50% depletion, Will i negatively affect the capacity?


 

 In my experience, even with input silent the E12 will still only last regular life(or a little bit longer). Recharging after 50% depletion has no negative effect on the FiiO battery(IMHO).


----------



## JamesBr

feelthebeat said:


> Thanks for the feedback, I'm considering using this with the original cable for charging, seems optimal? If the text in the pic is too small, it says "5.25 V, 2.1A" output .


 
 +1


----------



## The Walrus

Probably this question has been asked before. I am thinking of buying Beyerdynamic T1.
 Does anyone have experience with E12 + T1 ?  
 Will my E12 be sufficient do drive T1 efficiently and without clipping distortion occurring?
 Cheers.


----------



## TraneTime

the walrus said:


> Probably this question has been asked before. I am thinking of buying Beyerdynamic T1.
> Does anyone have experience with E12 + T1 ?
> Will my E12 be sufficient do drive T1 efficiently and without clipping distortion occurring?
> Cheers.


 
 I got an E12A just yesterday and used it with my T1.  It won't drive the T1 to ear splitting volumes but then I don't listen to music that loud.  It wasn't a long listening session but I did listen to a variety of tracks from my X5 2nd Gen.  (Keith Jarrett, BB King, the Stones, Beck.)  I didn't detect any distortion.  It sounded clear and a little bright, which is normal for the T1.  I think the E12A and the T1 is a good match, especially since the 1st generation T1 is now selling new for about $700.


----------



## bombjoke

I've been using it for over 6mon w/ my BD 770's 250Ω. all kinds of music.  never had clipping or any complaint.  the worth thing about the e12 is no auto-shut-off.  its so quiet i often leave it on.  it cannot boost the volume to an uncomfortable level.  i've often had it turned all the way up, but i have never been frustrated that i couldn't get it loud enough.


----------



## htr2d2

the walrus said:


> Probably this question has been asked before. I am thinking of buying Beyerdynamic T1.
> Does anyone have experience with E12 + T1 ?
> Will my E12 be sufficient do drive T1 efficiently and without clipping distortion occurring?
> Cheers.


 

 Using E12 with 300 ohm headphones. Even without the gain, it drives them fine. I prefer to use my tube amp for I like its coloring of SQ, but the E12 does a great job.


----------



## The Walrus

tranetime said:


> I got an E12A just yesterday and used it with my T1.  It won't drive the T1 to ear splitting volumes but then I don't listen to music that loud.  It wasn't a long listening session but I did listen to a variety of tracks from my X5 2nd Gen.  (Keith Jarrett, BB King, the Stones, Beck.)  I didn't detect any distortion.  It sounded clear and a little bright, which is normal for the T1.  I think the E12A and the T1 is a good match, especially since the 1st generation T1 is now selling new for about $700.


 
 Hmm, thanks. But my source is A17 Sony Walkman which has a notoriously low line level. I don't know the exact values but I guess the output would be much lower than X5. Maybe I'll get an ifi micro iDSD to use with the T1's. If only FiiO would make a DAC/AMP that is as powerful as the E12...


----------



## TraneTime

Good luck with your search. 

Ps. Dont't try the Sony PHA1 or PHA2. Even though they claim to power head phones up to 600 ohms, they do so very weakly. Even with an Astell & Kern AK120 as the source.


----------



## WitzyZed

the walrus said:


> Hmm, thanks. But my source is A17 Sony Walkman which has a notoriously low line level. I don't know the exact values but I guess the output would be much lower than X5. Maybe I'll get an ifi micro iDSD to use with the T1's. If only FiiO would make a DAC/AMP that is as powerful as the E12...



You'd best be on the look out for the FiiO Q5.
It won't be out till next year at best, sadly.
http://www.head-fi.org/t/772186/fiio-q5-flagship-dac-amp-an-dual-dac-usb-optical-coaxial-line-in-share-the-same-amp-module-with-x7


----------



## DW75

I have the E12 paired with my AKG K612 Pro. I have to say that the two offer nice synergy together. It is as if this amp was made just for these headphones. One thing that still impresses me with this amp is how good the bass is. It is so defined, tight, and controlled. People often say that this amp has a narrow soundstage. I totally disagree with this. I think the soundstage is rather realistic sounding. Instrument location is easy to detect, and the amp offers very nice and spacious imaging. I think many have been exposed to gear which has an artificial and unrealistically widened depth. This results in the assumption that this amp is narrow upon listening. Everything is just how it should be with the E12. There is nothing fake within its presentation. I still have to drop the 2 kHz region about -2 in order to remove that well known upper midrange grain on the K612 Pro. However, after that, the sound is quite good. As a side note, I also own the E11K which I am currently using for portable use with my Sennheiser PX 100 iii. I use the E12 as my desktop amp connected to my HT OMEGA Claro Plus sound card. If anyone would like a direct comparison between the E11K and E12, just let me know. I am totally willing to do it. I am sure it has been mentioned before, but be sure to listen to lossless tunes with this amp. If you have a good pair of headphones, you will find this amp to be rather revealing. You will hear clicks, hints of static, and other noise present in low quality rips.


----------



## StanD

dw75 said:


> I have the E12 paired with my AKG K612 Pro. I have to say that the two offer nice synergy together. It is as if this amp was made just for these headphones. One thing that still impresses me with this amp is how good the bass is. It is so defined, tight, and controlled. People often say that this amp has a narrow soundstage. I totally disagree with this. I think the soundstage is rather realistic sounding. Instrument location is easy to detect, and the amp offers very nice and spacious imaging. I think many have been exposed to gear which has an artificial and unrealistically widened depth. This results in the assumption that this amp is narrow upon listening. Everything is just how it should be with the E12. There is nothing fake within its presentation. I still have to drop the 2 kHz region about -2 in order to remove that well known upper midrange grain on the K612 Pro. However, after that, the sound is quite good. As a side note, I also own the E11K which I am currently using for portable use with my Sennheiser PX 100 iii. I use the E12 as my desktop amp connected to my HT OMEGA Claro Plus sound card. If anyone would like a direct comparison between the E11K and E12, just let me know. I am totally willing to do it. I am sure it has been mentioned before, but be sure to listen to lossless tunes with this amp. If you have a good pair of headphones, you will find this amp to be rather revealing. You will hear clicks, hints of static, and other noise present in low quality rips.


 
 I'd say that this business about the soundstage of the E12 being deficient is due to the forum flash mob blindly repeating some anecdote and creating a myth.


----------



## nobody7284

dyaems said:


>


 
 Hi,
  
 Can advise what is the difference using 3.5mm to 3.5mm compare to your connector LOD 5?
  
 Thanks
 Nobody


----------



## Cathcart

Any hissing with the E12 and IEMs?


----------



## peter123

cathcart said:


> Any hissing with the E12 and IEMs?




Yes, the E12A would probably be a better choice for IEM's.


----------



## Dyaems

nobody7284 said:


> Hi,
> 
> Can advise what is the difference using 3.5mm to 3.5mm compare to your connector LOD 5?
> 
> ...


 
  
 Just like iPods that use those 30-pin LODs, it bypasses the internal amp and just use the amp for E12. Using 3.5mm to 3.5mm will not bypass the DAP's amp section unless the DAP has "line out" function somewhere in the settings that uses the same 3.5mm jack (Fiio X1 for example)


----------



## The Walrus

My Beyerdynamic T1 2nd Gen. arrived. I'm happy to say that E12 drives them in high gain efficiently even with the  low line out level of my Sony Walkman A17.
 No hiss or clipping distortion whatsoever. I will try the T1 with other amps as well, but I doubt there will be any significant difference. (Already compared it to -though not a blind A/B/X test- to my Arcam irDAC and power amp.) In most tracks I don't need to go over 50% volume. 
 Hatts off to FiiO


----------



## Mark K

Strange....my long time slept E12 was taken and used to my LG V10. It is driving my Klisch Reference one. Even with the 10dB boost on, I have to turn volume to maximal value. I wonder if there is anything wrong with it? Besides it seems that I can never fully charge the amp.


----------



## The Walrus

mark k said:


> Strange....my long time slept E12 was taken and used to my LG V10. It is driving my Klisch Reference one. Even with the 10dB boost on, I have to turn volume to maximal value. I wonder if there is anything wrong with it? Besides it seems that I can never fully charge the amp.


 
 Hmm,  mine has 16 dB high gain.


----------



## Evshrug

mark k said:


> Strange....my long time slept E12 was taken and used to my LG V10. It is driving my Klisch Reference one. Even with the 10dB boost on, I have to turn volume to maximal value. I wonder if there is anything wrong with it? Besides it seems that I can never fully charge the amp.







the walrus said:


> Hmm,  mine has 16 dB high gain.




They ALL have the same 16 dB high gain, just the first production batch (pre-mass-production?) had the enclosure silk-screened with 10 dB on the outside. That means that Mark K has one of the original ones with the sub-bass boost... Though it is possible his battery is starting to wear out, it's more likely some other issue.

Mark K, how loud is the E12 when connected to a source besides your phone? Was your phone's volume set to maximum?


----------



## TRapz

I'm looking into amp for a variety of headphones, and the E12 has caught my eye. However, this amp is now over 2 years old; I know FiiO regularly updates its products, and I was wondering if the E12 would soon be updated (so that I could get the newest version). Does anyone know if the E12 will be updated soon or if FiiO is coming out with any amps in the $100-$200 range soon?


----------



## HotIce

The E12 is IMHO the best value for the $$ out there. The "new stuff" is mostly made to spill $$ out of your pocket. The E12 has a sane circuitry, and an awesome sound.
It is one of the very very few amps I could listen for hours (and I do), without the slightest trace of listening fatigue.


----------



## TRapz

hotice said:


> The E12 is IMHO the best value for the $$ out there. The "new stuff" is mostly made to spill $$ out of your pocket. The E12 has a sane circuitry, and an awesome sound.
> It is one of the very very few amps I could listen for hours (and I do), without the slightest trace of listening fatigue.


 
 Thanks for your help. I'm trying to decide between the E12 and the Schiit Vali 2; I'll be buying from Amazon and the Vali 2 isn't up yet, and though it likely has superior sound, the E12 is also portable and cheaper.
  
 I'll be using my amp with a turntable, and from there to a Grado SR80i and a Shure SRH440; in the spring I plan on upgrading headphones, possibly to something harder to drive, which is the reason for getting such a powerful amp.


----------



## HotIce

Can't talk about the Schiit Vali 2, as I never listened. Shiit makes good products though.
If you are into tube sound, you better look elsewhere, as the E12 just amplifies the sound coming in, with no added distorsion


----------



## WitzyZed

trapz said:


> I'm looking into amp for a variety of headphones, and the E12 has caught my eye. However, this amp is now over 2 years old; I know FiiO regularly updates its products, and I was wondering if the E12 would soon be updated (so that I could get the newest version). Does anyone know if the E12 will be updated soon or if FiiO is coming out with any amps in the $100-$200 range soon?





Whatever the A5 might end up being, I'm interested.


----------



## TRapz

I ordered the E12, it should be here Wednesday. I'm sure I'll be happy with it, as FiiO has never disappointed me. Thanks for the help from everyone here, I may post some impressions a bit after I get it.
  
 Edit: After looking a bit more into the E12A, I've decided to go with that. It seems like a better fit for my gear.


----------



## radguy88

Just received my E12 and I am pretty disappointed. Purchased off Amazon, it appears that it was a demo unit or purchased and returned by someone else.  The box inside the main box had a rip in the center hole where someone else tried to pull it out.  I plug it into my 2 amp usb charger and wait 7 hours for the light to turn solid which is never does.  It just went from a slow blink to a fast blink. Then I unplug it and it wont even turn on.  Plug it back in and it will turn on when plugged in but the audio is all distorted. I was on the fence with this in the first place and as much as I lost listening to music everywhere, its going back and I am going to spend a bit more on Schiit stuff.  Not knocking FiiO here necessarily, just bummed out that I am just getting into hifi audio and my first experience ended like this.


----------



## Saoshyant

Wow, that's quite unfortunate.  Luckily Amazon is very generous when it comes to issues like this.


----------



## HotIce

I think the battery on that unit is hosed. You should ask for replacement from the Amazon seller. Amazon has ways to do that.
Also, complain to Amazon about the seller intentionally sending bad unit.
Leave bad feedback to the seller as well.


----------



## Saoshyant

I'd first just see about getting the unit replaced instead of going to that extent.


----------



## Joe Bloggs

Who was the amazon seller?


----------



## HotIce

saoshyant said:


> I'd first just see about getting the unit replaced instead of going to that extent.



 
The fact that you will get it replaced, or reimbursed, is granted. I would not worry at all about that.
I bought mine (the two of them) at B&H Photo, for $120 shipped IIRC.


----------



## Saoshyant

Well, my issue would be telling Amazon the seller intentionally sent a bad unit.  I've had sellers send me an entirely incorrect product on Amazon, which Amazon fixed for me no issue.  I saw no point in trying to punish anyone.


----------



## HotIce

Leaving proper feedback _for the seller_, allows both Amazon, and future buyers, to "tune up" on the seller.
If that turned out to be a recurring problem with the seller, and assuming you read the reviews before pulling the trigger, you could have avoided going through the hassle of dealing with RMAs.
You do not need to add the "intentional" part. As I said, if the seller is playing dirty, and assuming people leaves proper feedback, the game has a very short life.


----------



## Saoshyant

Proper feedback, yes, but the implications of your suggestion at least to me didn't feel like that. Sorry if I misunderstood, I work graveyard shift and have been up 15 hours, so kind of tired.


----------



## DW75

radguy88 said:


> Just received my E12 and I am pretty disappointed. Purchased off Amazon, it appears that it was a demo unit or purchased and returned by someone else.  The box inside the main box had a rip in the center hole where someone else tried to pull it out.  I plug it into my 2 amp usb charger and wait 7 hours for the light to turn solid which is never does.  It just went from a slow blink to a fast blink. Then I unplug it and it wont even turn on.  Plug it back in and it will turn on when plugged in but the audio is all distorted. I was on the fence with this in the first place and as much as I lost listening to music everywhere, its going back and I am going to spend a bit more on Schiit stuff.  Not knocking FiiO here necessarily, just bummed out that I am just getting into hifi audio and my first experience ended like this.


 
  
 What a shame to hear that happened. I have owned this amp for probably 6 months now. It is a great piece of kit for the money. I think you should give them another try once you get this sorted. The E12 is a great amp. I would bet money you will not be disappointed again.


----------



## StanD

hotice said:


> Can't talk about the Schiit Vali 2, as I never listened. Shiit makes good products though.
> If you are into tube sound, you better look elsewhere, as the E12 just amplifies the sound coming in, with *no added distorsion*


 
 And that's a good thing, no added distortion.


----------



## The Walrus

witzyzed said:


> You'd best be on the look out for the FiiO Q5.
> It won't be out till next year at best, sadly.
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/772186/fiio-q5-flagship-dac-amp-an-dual-dac-usb-optical-coaxial-line-in-share-the-same-amp-module-with-x7


 
 It seems that FiiO is going towards super-trouper DAC way when all I want is a powerful portable dac/amp that can just handle 44.1/16
 I don't know whether there's a more powerful portable amp, but I sure love my E12 and it doesn't seem FiiO will come up with something better in the near future. I've been using mine for one and a half years, and I'm thinking of buying another just in case it dies unexpectedly or the battery wears off. What do you think?


----------



## nobody7284

Hi All,
  
 E12 able to drive Audio Technica ATH-MSR7 ?
  
 Thanks
 NObody


----------



## TRapz

the walrus said:


> It seems that FiiO is going towards super-trouper DAC way when all I want is a powerful portable dac/amp that can just handle 44.1/16
> I don't know whether there's a more powerful portable amp, but I sure love my E12 and it doesn't seem FiiO will come up with something better in the near future. I've been using mine for one and a half years, and I'm thinking of buying another just in case it dies unexpectedly or the battery wears off. What do you think?


 
 I bought myself a FiiO E12A about a month ago and I've really been liking it. It isn't as powerful as the E12, but it does have quite a bit (I can drive Mad Dogs just fine) and can be used with lower-impedance headphones without worry of hiss or noise. I haven't compared it to the E12, but it may be another option for you.


----------



## joco42

I have a HD598 Sennheiser and E12 , before I got the E12 I used to hook up my HD598 to an old Yamaha amplifier and I have to say that the Yamaha is better (but it is not very portable - about 10 kilos).

Does this make sense to you guys? 

Can the 15 year old Yamaha amp outdo the brand new E12 ?


----------



## makan

I have had the e12 for about a year or so. Just got the fiio hs2 to do some a/bing. I was alwayys impressed with the e12 but now the hs2 confirms it at least to my ears with the HD800. Sounds just as good as my audio gd 10.33 when compared to x5/e12...awfully impressive. Anyone as impressed as me?....or maybe my 45 year old ears can't discern the differences there.


----------



## joco42

That ! is interesting, cqti, maybe I should compare too with that device, I just have the impression my yamaha has more juice...


----------



## HotIce

joco42 said:


> That ! is interesting, cqti, maybe I should compare too with that device, I just have the impression my yamaha has more juice...



 
I would not be surprised at all, if the HP stage of a desktop amplifier has more juice. I would be surprised of the contray, eventually.


----------



## serman005

Anyone know how the Mont Blanc pairs with the HE 400s?


----------



## htr2d2

serman005 said:


> Anyone know how the Mont Blanc pairs with the HE 400s?


 

 Awesome!
  
 I use it several times a week with my HE-400 headphones. Not suggesting it is the equivalent to a Schiit Bifrost/Lyr 2, but the best portable amp that I have used.


----------



## serman005

htr2d2 said:


> Awesome!
> 
> I use it several times a week with my HE-400 headphones. Not suggesting it is the equivalent to a Schiit Bifrost/Lyr 2, but the best portable amp that I have used.


 

 That is encouraging--thank you!! Have thought of adding a DAC? If so/not, why? My source is phone.


----------



## htr2d2

serman005 said:


> That is encouraging--thank you!! Have thought of adding a DAC? If so/not, why? My source is phone.


 

 I would suggest using the phone and give it a couple weeks then determine if you are unhappy with the sound. If you are thinking of a dedicated *portable* DAC, you might as well research and find a good lossless player with an excellent DAC or buy a DAC/AMP combo. Ugh. So many options.
  
 My advice is to use the device to play content that suits your preference (ease of use, streaming content, radio, whatever) and use it with the E12 to drive the HE-400s. A phone and the E12 will be a tight fit into most people pockets. I can do it, barely.


----------



## serman005

htr2d2 said:


> I would suggest using the phone and give it a couple weeks then determine if you are unhappy with the sound. If you are thinking of a dedicated *portable* DAC, you might as well research and find a good lossless player with an excellent DAC or buy a DAC/AMP combo. Ugh. So many options.
> 
> My advice is to use the device to play content that suits your preference (ease of use, streaming content, radio, whatever) and use it with the E12 to drive the HE-400s. A phone and the E12 will be a tight fit into most people pockets. I can do it, barely.


 

 I will use the phone for a couple of weeks and see how it goes. Then, I'll research the DAC/combo units you suggested and see where it leads me. Thank you for your helpful comments.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.


----------



## scsarson

I have an FiiO E12 which I use with my Sennheiser HD600s. A question I have never seen answered is whether there is any difference between the high and low gain settings (other than I have to turn the volume up higher on low gain!). Is there a sound quality benefit to one or the other, or is it just whichever sounds best to you?
  
 Thanks in advance for any views.


----------



## bizkid

Im currently waiting for my Sony LOD to arrive. I wonder what improvements it will bring. Whats everyones experience with LODs? Using the headphone out and double amping i get a very similar tonality but more of a 3d sound with the fiio e12


----------



## Hijodelbrx

scsarson said:


> I have an FiiO E12 which I use with my Sennheiser HD600s. A question I have never seen answered is whether there is any difference between the high and low gain settings (other than I have to turn the volume up higher on low gain!). Is there a sound quality benefit to one or the other, or is it just whichever sounds best to you?
> 
> Thanks in advance for any views.


 
 I'll just state the obvious, do YOU hear benefits?  I also use my E12 with my 600's.  I read an opinion (I think on this thread somewhere, or maybe over on the HD600 thread) that the low gain setting has less distortion.  I don't hear any so I prefer the more powerful setting.


----------



## scsarson

Thanks. Agree completely that it's what you like the sound of that really matters, but was just interested if there was some technical reason why using the gain setting might compromise the sound.
  
 Just been doing some tests and concluded I'll stick with the low gain setting. It still lets me get it loud enough and I have more of the volume travel to play with.
  
 Also decided I really like the effect of the E12 bass boost with the HD600s. I'm normally very against EQ/tone controls etc (I like a monitor like sound). But I think it really helps the HD600s to fill out at the bottom - at least in my current setup.


----------



## Pedro Oliveira

Guys, how much is the improvemente of a fiio e12 over a topping nx1? I have a topping that i barely use and a guy just made me a offer of 25 euros for it.... I can get a refurbished e12 for 30..... What do you guys think? 

I am going to use it to power the following headphones:

Beyerdynamic dt770 pro 80ohm
Sennheiser HD598
Sennheiser HD25-1 II


----------



## BETEP 9

Is somebody  using the E12 with x3 II ?


----------



## mikek200

betep 9 said:


> Is somebody  using the E12 with x3 II ?


 
 Yes,I got the Fiio-12 yesterday
 Questions???
  
 Mike


----------



## Madcat207

I see that this thread has really died down, but i figure somebody might be interested; B&H has this camp for $79 shipped right now (i admit i had been mulling it over at $100 on amazon, but bit the bullet on this price).
  
 http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/968290-REG/fiio_e12_mont_blanc_pro.html


----------



## HotIce

madcat207 said:


> I see that this thread has really died down, but i figure somebody might be interested; B&H has this camp for $79 shipped right now (i admit i had been mulling it over at $100 on amazon, but bit the bullet on this price).
> 
> http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/968290-REG/fiio_e12_mont_blanc_pro.html


 
  
 That's a super deal. I would grab it while it lasts. I paid mine (s, I have two of them) $120 from B&H, some time ago.


----------



## Madcat207

hotice said:


> That's a super deal. I would grab it while it lasts. I paid mine (s, I have two of them) $120 from B&H, some time ago.


 

 Mine is already shipped.


----------



## pbui44

The FiiO e12 used to be the cheap alternative to the ALO National/International/Rx series. Now that all three of those lines have been discontinued, the e12 is now even cheaper and more versatile than the current ALO portable amp products. With the B&H sale going on, that deal is now an absolute no-brainer for those needing a cheap and powerful portable amp.


----------



## Primus2112

Just got my E12, From Amazon... yes I missed the recent BH Photo sale. 
 Anyways - great amp. Very powerful. Nothing new to add that has not been added in these thread. 
 Powers my Mk3's very well.


----------



## dice32

With the B&H sale does that mean the e12 is going to be replaced soon?


----------



## The Walrus

Hey guys. Just a trivial question: My new setup consists of Samsung Galaxy S4 - Cozoy Astrapi and E12.  It is agony to move them from one desk to another in the office 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
 Can I find a small (preferably hard) case to keep them in? Astrapi is like a flash USB stick, so it doesn't occupy much of a space. 
  
 Cheers.


----------



## catspaw

Crap, Another headphone jack malfunction (first was in E17, tried to fix it and broke it ).
 Not sure if its poor headphone jack in Fiio equipment or if I am too rough on the amp.


----------



## bombjoke

Do any of you use the e12 with the fiio x5 dap? I have both. I don't notice a need with th900-30ohm or even dt770-250s. I thought the point of the x5 is that it has an amp already like a e12 more or less built in. (Unlike common players like clipzip.)

Why then, does fiio have a "kit" product that includes both items?

I hear people saying the x5 can drive up to 300ohms, therefore no e12 necessary. True. It sounds fine without e12. That's what I want.

Then why the heck is fiio marketing a kit that includes both? Why do people cut the x5 amp out of the loop and line out to e12? I thought the whole point of a dap with an amp was to allow single portable module. How much more powerful is the e12 than the internal x5 amp? 1.3? Double?

I've been told it's not about ohms only, as headphones differ in "sensitivity". OK, what are these units of sensitivity? Are my headphones the sensitive ones? Are the sensitive ones those that need more amplification, or the insensitive?

Yes, I have both, so I have tried with and without. I'm not noticing any differences that are so obvious I'd be confident of passing a blind test. But then again I don't know what to listen for. I have gold ears according to the old Phillips test, but less training. What am I supposed to notice? Give me a song and a time code and a specific description of what to listen for. Subjective is fine... But specificity can make subjectivity meaningful.

Tell me I'll never notice a difference with the 25ohm th900s and noble iems, I'll be happy . Tell me I'm a fool to exclude the e12 with the 770s, I'll believe you. But explain specifically what I'm missing because I want to hear it.


----------



## WitzyZed

bombjoke said:


> Do any of you use the e12 with the fiio x5 dap? I have both. I don't notice a need with th900-30ohm or even dt770-250s. I thought the point of the x5 is that it has an amp already like a e12 more or less built in. (Unlike common players like clipzip.)
> 
> Why then, does fiio have a "kit" product that includes both items?




E12 features an analog bass boost & crossfeed switches.
E12A features a more subdued but present sub-bass boost.

If I owned an X5 solely I'm either unable to use crossfeed or need to use digital eq or none at all because eq is disabled for files above 48kHz in sample rate.


----------



## StanD

A headphone that is high impedance and not sensitive will require a higher Vp-p which the E12 can deliver better than the X5. The E12 and E12A are no longer listed on their website, I was able to find the below link to get the below specs.
 X5 : Vp-p = 8.2V
 E12: Vp-p = 15V
 E12a: Vp-p = 10.3
  
 So the E12 is about 5.25 dBV higher than the X5. Whether this is important is up to how loud you listen, how much headroom you really need and how sensitive the headphone is.
  
http://m.fiio.net/en/products/33/comparisons


----------



## StanD

Time to look at the A5 more carefully. Looks like the E12 and E12A may have been discontinued.


----------



## stev121314

would these be good for HD 600


----------



## bms44974

E12 drives my HD600s nicely.


----------



## stev121314

bms44974 said:


> E12 drives my HD600s nicely.


 
 would you say an amp is neccesary? does it only make it louder? because I feel like they're currently loud enough


----------



## bms44974

clericlaw said:


> would you say an amp is neccesary? does it only make it louder? because I feel like they're currently loud enough


 

 That depends entirely on the DAC with which it is paired. I have used it with FiiO X3 (original) and X5ii as source/DAC and found the E12 extended the bass (in a neutral way) and improved the sound stage. E12 is completely unnecessary with iFi iDAC. If you are just pairing it with a mobile phone then the E12 will may help some, but won't make up for deficiencies in the source and consumer-quality DAC.
  
 Cheers... Brian


----------



## Pedro Oliveira

bms44974 said:


> E12 drives my HD600s nicely.



But only in terms of volume or the e12 geta the hd600 cloae to their true potential?

I have a e12 but i cant help to wonder what a cayin c5, oppo ha2, schiit fulla 2 (dont want to go further in price than yhe value of theae) might do to them...


----------



## bms44974

pedro oliveira said:


> But only in terms of volume or the e12 geta the hd600 cloae to their true potential?
> 
> I have a e12 but i cant help to wonder what a cayin c5, oppo ha2, schiit fulla 2 (dont want to go further in price than yhe value of theae) might do to them...


 
 I consider the E12 to be a decent portable amp. It will never complete with a desktop unit. I don't consider the HD600s to be portable and have only tested them with my portable sources and never use them together. The E12 really helped with driving Etymotic ER4s (100 Ohm) from X3. Having moved to X5ii with ER4SR (45 Ohm), I don't use E12 much any more. I have not tried the units you mention.


----------



## StanD

pedro oliveira said:


> But only in terms of volume or the e12 geta the hd600 cloae to their true potential?
> 
> I have a e12 but i cant help to wonder what a cayin c5, oppo ha2, schiit fulla 2 (dont want to go further in price than yhe value of theae) might do to them...


 

 If you like to listen very loud then you might eek out a few more dB SPL with another amp. For the most part I find the E12 does an admirable job with the HD600 and I listen on the loud side. Im addition to driving my HD600's well, I find it drives HE500's and HR560's nicely and they are a bit power hungry at the lower impedance end. The E12 is very flexible and does very well compared to my desktop amps. IMO, listen more, worry less and have more fun.


----------



## catspaw

catspaw said:


> Crap, Another headphone jack malfunction (first was in E17, tried to fix it and broke it ).
> Not sure if its poor headphone jack in Fiio equipment or if I am too rough on the amp.


 
 Nevermind, its not the amp, its the neutrik 3.5 mm jack connector from forza audio works color cable.


----------



## serman005

Anybody know how the E12 works with the HE400S by any chance? Also, what portable dacs are folks using with the E12? Thanks for the input!


----------



## The Walrus

serman005 said:


> Anybody know how the E12 works with the HE400S by any chance? Also, what portable dacs are folks using with the E12? Thanks for the input!


 
 I use Cozoy Astrapi. It's probably the most compact and versatile DAC you can find.


----------



## serman005

This is going to sound ridiculous, but does anyone know if it is possible to use an ipod shuffle with a Mont Blanc? Would it even work--the thing is soooo small. I have one sitting around and I was looking at it and just wondering if I could get more out of it. Many thanks for any feedback!


----------



## Hal Rockwell

serman005 said:


> This is going to sound ridiculous, but does anyone know if it is possible to use an ipod shuffle with a Mont Blanc? Would it even work--the thing is soooo small. I have one sitting around and I was looking at it and just wondering if I could get more out of it. Many thanks for any feedback!




Yes, it's possible. If you wonder how to stack them - it's simple. You can use velcro or you can just slide one of the silicone rings that come bundled with the E12. As far as connections go - just use a 3.5mm patch cable from the shuffle headphone out to the input of the E12.


----------



## serman005

hal rockwell said:


> Yes, it's possible. If you wonder how to stack them - it's simple. You can use velcro or you can just slide one of the silicone rings that come bundled with the E12. As far as connections go - just use a 3.5mm patch cable from the shuffle headphone out to the input of the E12.


 
 Awesome! Thank you! --)


----------



## DmitryBodriy

Is any chance to buy new battery for e12?


----------



## Hal Rockwell

dmitrybodriy said:


> Is any chance to buy new battery for e12?




FiiO used to sell E12 replacement batteries via their official AliExpress store, but I don't see them being sold there now. I think that you should probably contact Fiio's cs directly. Most likely, they'll be able to hook you up.


----------



## JamesWJ71

How much boost do you get from the E12?
  
 I have been eyeing in for some time. I currently use three headphone amps chained together to get a decent volume boost when using my Zune mp3 player.
  
 I hate that companies have taken it upon themselves to "protect" MY hearing!
  
 With the three amps I currently use, which are not high end by any means, I can put the Zune's volume at about 10 (it goes up to 32 I think). If I put my headphones directly into the Zune I have to turn the volume all the way up to get the same amount of volume. I know, they intend you to use earbuds but I had earbuds. Even with earbuds the volume going straight into the player is lacking though it is better than if I put my Sony MDR-G57G S2 sports street style headphones directly into the Zune.


----------



## Hal Rockwell

jameswj71 said:


> How much boost do you get from the E12?
> 
> I have been eyeing in for some time. I currently use three headphone amps chained together to get a decent volume boost when using my Zune mp3 player.
> 
> ...




As far as I know, E12 is the most powerful portable headphone amp in its price category. I don't listen to music at high volume levels, but even with my hardest to drive headphones, diy orthos, I never needed to go past 3 o'clock on the volume knob. Never went beyond 12 o'clock on my hardest to drive IEMs - the Havi B3. 

Another thing I want to add is that reamping is not advised. It's not healthy for the amp since it overloads the input and degrades the signal by introducing distortion.


----------



## JamesWJ71

I don't typically listen at high volume....not these days anyway.
  
 But, for the last few decades it has been hard to find a personal stereo that has decent volume. I find that you need to turn the volume higher to get the same amount of loudness that personal stereos from earlier would get turned up maybe 1/4 to 1/3 of the way.
  
 I think with MP3 players they have limited volume even more than they had with personal cassette and CD players. Likely because a lot of people make their own MP3's and often have the volume rather loud compared to the original source.
  
 Personally I often boost the volume of an MP3 file simply because of the low output of the player.
  
 As for stacking the headphone amps, the first two I got were from Boost-a-roo and it was a person from their company that told me I could increase the volume more by daisy chaining them. When I bought my third headphone amp, an Auvio amp from RadioShack, I discovered that the order in which the amps are connected makes a difference. If I have a them in a certain order the volume doesn't seem to boost much at all   from the volume of the headphones directly into my Zune.
  
 I have been using them daisy-chained for a few years now but, if the E12 could give me the amount of boost I want on its own I would just use it by itself. After all, one amp to turn on and off would be _*SO*_ much simpler than turning three on and off.


----------



## Hal Rockwell

jameswj71 said:


> I don't typically listen at high volume....not these days anyway.
> 
> But, for the last few decades it has been hard to find a personal stereo that has decent volume. I find that you need to turn the volume higher to get the same amount of loudness that personal stereos from earlier would get turned up maybe 1/4 to 1/3 of the way.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I think that maybe you should consider replacing your Zune with something more capable, like the FiiO X3 or X5. It will improve the sound quality and allow you to drive most of the portable headphones out there.


----------



## JamesWJ71

That would be something to consider if my Zune stops working but, right now I am not looking for a new player.
 besides, I like the features of my Zune.
  
 My Zune can drive my Sony headphones. if I want to have it at full volume. But doing that shortens the time before it needs to be recharged. Even with earbuds the volume is not great but, the fact that ear buds go in the ear that makes up for the limited volume on such devices. But, I don't care for ear buds. They are uncomfortable since I have to really shove them into my ears to keep them from popping out.
  
 The ear buds that came with the Zune don't even fit in my ears that well so I have never used them. I have used a two other sets of buds before I decided to start using a headphone amp.
  
 I typically hate change. So, until I have no choice I will stick with my Zune.


----------



## Hal Rockwell

jameswj71 said:


> That would be something to consider if my Zune stops working but, right now I am not looking for a new player.
> besides, I like the features of my Zune.
> 
> My Zune can drive my Sony headphones. if I want to have it at full volume. But doing that shortens the time before it needs to be recharged. Even with earbuds the volume is not great but, the fact that ear buds go in the ear that makes up for the limited volume on such devices. But, I don't care for ear buds. They are uncomfortable since I have to really shove them into my ears to keep them from popping out.
> ...


 
  
 About the ear buds... Consider switching to IEMs. There are lots of great sounding choices starting at about 15USD. It will improve comfort and block out the ambient noise, enabling you to lower your listening volume levels.


----------



## R300

Can anyone suggest a modern phone/tablet that will work with the e12 (ie analogue line out)? I'll be using it to stream music as well as play from memory.

I've been using my ipod touch 4G its processor is slow by modern standards.

Failing that - are there any modern DAPs than are compatible with the e12?


----------



## bms44974

r300 said:


> Can anyone suggest a modern phone/tablet that will work with the e12 (ie analogue line out)? I'll be using it to stream music as well as play from memory.
> 
> I've been using my ipod touch 4G its processor is slow by modern standards.
> 
> Failing that - are there any modern DAPs than are compatible with the e12?


 

 Hi R300,
  
 The E12 will make your phone/tablet louder, but will not improve the sound. A DAP (or DAC/amp) is what you need. I have used FiiO X3 and X5ii (both DAPs) with my E12 and it has no trouble driving my most demanding headphones (300 Ohm Sennheiser HD600s).
  
 Cheers... Brian


----------



## StanD

r300 said:


> Can anyone suggest a modern phone/tablet that will work with the e12 (ie analogue line out)? I'll be using it to stream music as well as play from memory.
> 
> I've been using my ipod touch 4G its processor is slow by modern standards.
> 
> Failing that - are there any modern DAPs than are compatible with the e12?


 
 The iPod Touch 4G need only be fast enough to do the job, which I suspect it is. What makes you think that it lacks enough CPU power?


----------



## R300

By slow - I mean it takes longer than I'd like to start streaming a track or to search music. This is definitely a processing issue and not net speed.


----------



## eteina

Anybody has the full Fiio E12 comparison charts that were found on Fiio's website?


----------



## Rebkos

I bought my E12 in summer 2013. Was working quite nice, until about summer of 2016 when Ii noticed degrading battery life (about half of what it used to be). I have not been using it since september 2016 I guess. Just kept it in a drawer.
  
 Yesterday I wanted to used it, but it was completely dead. So I plugged it in, red LED starts "breathing", but after few seconds it starts blinking rapidly. I have tried many different cables and adapters as well as connecting to computer USB. Also reset button multiple times. It just keeps flashing rapidly. Only if i turn the unit on, while connected, the red LED starts "breathing" again and E12 can be used. When I unplug cable, it switches off immediately, when I turn unit off, it starts flashing rapidly again. I tried to leave it charging for very long time with same results.
  
 Warranty is expired. Any ideas what can be done? Anyone encountered same issue?


----------



## StanD

rebkos said:


> I bought my E12 in summer 2013. Was working quite nice, until about summer of 2016 when Ii noticed degrading battery life (about half of what it used to be). I have not been using it since september 2016 I guess. Just kept it in a drawer.
> 
> Yesterday I wanted to used it, but it was completely dead. So I plugged it in, red LED starts "breathing", but after few seconds it starts blinking rapidly. I have tried many different cables and adapters as well as connecting to computer USB. Also reset button multiple times. It just keeps flashing rapidly. Only if i turn the unit on, while connected, the red LED starts "breathing" again and E12 can be used. When I unplug cable, it switches off immediately, when I turn unit off, it starts flashing rapidly again. I tried to leave it charging for very long time with same results.
> 
> Warranty is expired. Any ideas what can be done? Anyone encountered same issue?


 
 Sounds like a dead battery. if you let a Li-Ion battery run down and don't recharge it for a long time it's like putting a knife through its heart.
 First you have to find and get a suitable replacement battery, if you can't solder, etc. find someone that can. Otherwise contact FiiO for serice or buy the newer version.


----------



## 6Channel

OK - this is a check to see who's still tethered to this thread:

I tried 6 unsuitable replacement amps for my failed-battery E12, and am now getting by with an A3, which is the best I've heard so far - but not as good as my E12 was. I've taken it apart, and planned to just put a grommet in the case to connect a *trio* of Li-ion cells, since I understood the battery power for the E12 is *11.1V*. I assumed the E12 battery was a sandwich of 3x3.7V Li-ion packages in series feeding power to the board. Now that I have removed the battery, I'm confused: there are 2 black & 2 red wires running separately from the battery pack. Do these power in series to 7.4V somehow on the board, or are they parallel 3.7's that somehow "step up" to 11V on the board? Interestingly, I note that voltage shown for "replacement" E12 batteries online is just 3.7V. Any tips will be greatly appreciated - especially if you know what voltages are running through the 2 black + 2 red wires to the board. I'm now suspecting the advertised 11.1V is in error, and it's probably just paralleled 3.7s. I can find no labeling whatsoever on the blue battery pack.


----------



## Evshrug

Huh.
Well, I haven’t used my E12 (preproduction with the subbass boost instead of the midbass boost) for years, but about twice a year I give it an hour or so recharge. I don’t really feel comfortable cracking it open though, because I keep meaning to put it up for sale.


----------



## stakarVN

I was (am) in the same position a year ago and didn't follow up (didn't buy new batteries).

I think the statement about 11V (was in every review at the time of release) is true but don't know how it is done.

But... look at my photos 😁 Wires explained right ?


----------



## stakarVN

Let us know what your next move is.


----------



## stakarVN (Jun 25, 2021)

Aaand I think the middle battery is on the one side connected to the upper batteryterminal an on the other side to the lower batteryterminal. So that's how they get 11V (I think). Maybe 2x(3.7 + (3.7/2)) ? It's just a guess.

Such a nice amp.


----------



## 6Channel

stakarVN said:


> I was (am) in the same position a year ago and didn't follow up (didn't buy new batteries).
> 
> I think the statement about 11V (was in every review at the time of release) is true but don't know how it is done.
> 
> But... look at my photos 😁 Wires explained right ?


OK, stakarVN - I broke the code Wednesday:  all the images online of the battery wires show a single hard-soldered red and black wires - mine, like yours, has two thin black + two thin red terminated in a connector, which was introduced in later production.  I dragged out my "needle" probes and determined that the two black are actually parallel - acting as s single conductor; same for red.  In 3 exchanges with FiiO in the past week, I'm pretty certain that the battery (mine is now ZERO volts) is, indeed, probably an 11.1V.  I'm convinced that dimensions & packaging won't permit 3 3.7 pancake cells stuffed in the E12 chamber, which ostensibly could be connected in series.  So, since my E12 worked just fine until the battery failed, I'm gonna string 3 18650's in series and feed it into the case through a grommet.  This won't work well for portability, but mine just sits next to my easy chair.   In hindsight, I'm surprised they even fooled around with the "serviceable" connector, as difficult as it is to find a replacement battery & just access the battery itself.

Completely incidentally, my crawls through message boards on chips (wish I had the DIY E12!) indicates that the working voltages for chips run across a fairly broad range, so the ol' E12 circuit might still crank out sufficient sound levels for some with a lonely 3.7 pancake:  I'll be checking that out in the next coupla weeks, too.  Unfortunately, my 600Ω cans really need the 11.1V juice.


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## stakarVN (Jun 28, 2021)

It would be interesting to see your 18650 in series. 

But why wouldn't you go pancake style ? I looked on AliExpress. You could go with three of
503035 3.7v 500mah Lithium​303450 3.7V 1000mAh Lithium​302530 3.7v 500mah Lithium​I would prefer the bottom ones because they give you a lot of extra space.  You could then easely combine the different leads as I described with the middle battery before you connect them to the charging board (which is now connected to dead batteries - the one with printed dimensions 47*10*0.8 in my photos).

So either way is doable I think. Only thing is I don't know how you would go about charging your 18650's ?

edit : to clarify, I would never put 3 cells in series in combination with that charging board.  The outer 2 would be connected each with the terminals on one (length) side of the board.  One terminal of the middle battery would then be connect with a lead of one of the outer ones, and the other terminal of middle battery would be connected with a lead of the other outer one.  You can look at the paper tape (on the middle battery I loosened it to the middle and folded it up) to know how the three batteries are oriented relative to one another and how to connect the leads.

edit2: I keep forgetting you have this dead battery pack also


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## 6Channel

stakarVN said:


> It would be interesting to see your 18650 in series.
> 
> But why wouldn't you go pancake style ? I looked on AliExpress. You could go with three of
> 503035 3.7v 500mah Lithium​303450 3.7V 1000mAh Lithium​302530 3.7v 500mah Lithium​I would prefer the bottom ones because they give you a lot of extra space.  You could then easely combine the different leads as I described with the middle battery before you connect them to the charging board (which is now connected to dead batteries - the one with printed dimensions 47*10*0.8 in my photos).
> ...


Now you got me a-thinkin'.  I'm "assuming" I'd use the existing charging circuit in the E12 - it should still be addressing 11.1V charging [3 x 3.3V in series, as FiiO certainly packaged the original battery] whether 3 pancake cells in series or 3 tubular devices [18650's] - the 18650's traditionally take forever to charge in my experience, but overnight should give me plenty of juice to play with.  I was pretty certain, until your latest post, that 3 pancake cells would surely be too thick;  however, if I can flatten them enough, the dimensions would "just fit", thickness-wise.  The other dimensions look OK, too, for the 1st & 3rd one you list.  Shipping costs more than the batteries themselves, but I'm about to order up a few anyway.  Thanks for re-suggesting these pancakes!  [I'm thinking thickness of three might be OK if I get rid of the anti-rattle strips on one side & the incredibly sticky double-back film on the other]


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## stakarVN (Jun 28, 2021)

A few things... (and I'm not an expert)

The pancake cells aren't in series when you connect them to the charging board... So when you say


> 3 x 3.3V in series, as FiiO certainly packaged the original battery


I don't get what you mean.  Do you have another charging board ? You would need to solder 4 contacts, not 2.  So you only get "series" on the output of the board where the black and red wires depart.  I think the biggest concern is the internal impedance of what you're charging and I think that's why they do 2x(3.7 + (3.7/2)).  Sorry to keep saying this but I wouldn't like your board to burn out.

The internal case dimension is 12mm. So 3 times 3.0 mm (middle battery)  = 9 mm, or 3 times 3.5 mm (battery 1 and 3) = 10.5 mm.  You wouldn't need to flatten them, they'll fit, right ? My original battery (cells with board) measure 54x45x9.0  So the middle should fit also.

edit : ah I see, anti-rattle makes it thicker and that's why they wouldn't fit.

edit2 : Bigger ah : you make a difference between charging board (on the battery) and charging circuit.  The latter being what is on the E12 mainboard, where the battery connects.  In that case you can disregard me hammering the usage of the circuit-board when you use 18650.  I wouldn't know one way or another what happens when you connect 3 18650 in series.  Your experience will be our gain


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## 6Channel

Grateful for your dogged continued interest, stakarVN, anyway!  I'm only guessing, since Li-ion chemistry only results in ~3.7/4.2V (except in really esoteric applications) that the battery source FiiO spec'd was obliged to somehow string a series of familiar 3.7 energy sources, resulting in the "11.1V" package.  I'm, again, guessing that the E12 charging circuit accounts for the series'd package;  therefore, I would simply solder the 3.7 pancakes you turned me onto nose-to-tail, and the E12 board wouldn't know any better.  I also just figured that the 18650 solution would fool the stock board into charging the 3 cells in the same manner, only taking gazillions more time.  Added benefit with 1850's would be that the amp wouldn't run shy of amps when the whole orchestra kicks in.  Hah!

I think I'm headed for the triple pancake solution first  .  .  .  .  .  18650's might, maybe, shove too many amps during those crescendos  .  .  .  .  .


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## stakarVN

Interesting link. I'm really curious of your progress


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## 6Channel

Hey - good link.  It pretty much edifies my understanding of the triple-series array, winding up with 11.1V, with a charging circuit that is designed to that charge level.  A small mystery remains with me whether either the charge circuit or discharge circuit is sensitive to the batteries' mah capacities:  I'll feel safe with any of the pancakes you found.


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## Arthur Weston

I have a Mont Blanc and it works magic!


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## Arthur Weston

The Mont Blanc opened the door to a world of curiosity about what is possible with bigger amps.


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## 6Channel

Arthur Weston said:


> I have a Mont Blanc and it works magic!


Some kind of magic, indeed:  I plied the CanJams in LA, SF, and Denver for a year auditioning amps for my thirsty and revealing 600Ω Beyers, and the diminutive Mont Blanc consistently came up a winner.  My "replacement" A3 carries the spirit, but is a bit too polite in response and comes up short of the E12's dynamics (power).  The audiophile rags harp about the big rigs' specs and ability to drive some of the hungriest planars, but the geeks at FiiO seem to have demonstrated a peculiar knack for wringing great performance out of some pretty simple semiconductors.  

I have to confess that I can't comment on all the DAC/amps on the market now, many of which are surely superb, because I can't feed them digital data - pure amps are literally disappearing by the week.


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## sparrow95 (Aug 14, 2022)

6Channel said:


> OK, stakarVN - I broke the code Wednesday:  all the images online of the battery wires show a single hard-soldered red and black wires - mine, like yours, has two thin black + two thin red terminated in a connector, which was introduced in later production.  I dragged out my "needle" probes and determined that the two black are actually parallel - acting as s single conductor; same for red.  In 3 exchanges with FiiO in the past week, I'm pretty certain that the battery (mine is now ZERO volts) is, indeed, probably an 11.1V.  I'm convinced that dimensions & packaging won't permit 3 3.7 pancake cells stuffed in the E12 chamber, which ostensibly could be connected in series.  So, since my E12 worked just fine until the battery failed, I'm gonna string 3 18650's in series and feed it into the case through a grommet.  This won't work well for portability, but mine just sits next to my easy chair.   In hindsight, I'm surprised they even fooled around with the "serviceable" connector, as difficult as it is to find a replacement battery & just access the battery itself.
> 
> Completely incidentally, my crawls through message boards on chips (wish I had the DIY E12!) indicates that the working voltages for chips run across a fairly broad range, so the ol' E12 circuit might still crank out sufficient sound levels for some with a lonely 3.7 pancake:  I'll be checking that out in the next coupla weeks, too.  Unfortunately, my 600Ω cans really need the 11.1V juice.


My E12's battery died so i kept using it plugged in for months now, it worked fine but occasionally outputs a loud noise when powered on right after plugging the power cable, it would go away simply by waiting a few seconds post plugging the power cable before turning on.

Now after i noticed some overheating i took it apart and the battery was all swollen, removed it but then that same noise (that was present if turned on too fast after plugging the charger) is present permanently. i wonder if you know any trick how to adress this ? any help would be greatly appreciated (I'm planning to use it battery-less if possible just plugged into a charger at full time)

Putting some battery from aliexpress is a viable solution but while using it as a desktop amp it would just end up with the same problem over time


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