# Why vishay-Dale?



## kramer5150

Why are these resistors so popular in the signal chain?

 Are either of these VD resistors?


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## Fitz

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kramer5150* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Why are these resistors so popular in the signal chain?_

 

Because they look cool.


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## hYdrociTy

The colors of high end stuff match, brown vd's, red bg's, black ic chips, copper pcb.. It all looks dark, woody, and luxurious.


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## tangent

Dale was a resistor manufacturer that made many different lines of resistors. Vishay bought them, and Vishay also makes many different kinds of resistors. Thus, not all "Vishay-Dale" resistors are the same. What you've pictured there are not the popular RN/CMF series. I'd poke around on vishay.com for "PTF" to learn more about the ones you've got pictured there.


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## d-cee

i'd buy them cos they're easier to read the values on!

 but also i think they're supposed to sound better duno. maybe someone can clarify


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## lordvader

How do vishay/dales compare with Holco/PRP resistors ? They're essentially priced the same, and look equally cool (black holco's !!!)


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## tomb

These are the things I've heard and read, and the experience I've had. As always, there will be differing opinions and YMMV:

 1. Metal-film resistors have less noise than other resistor types.
 2. Metal-film resistors's resistance does not alter under heat.
 3. The V-D brand of metal-film resistors are the highest quality metal-film resistors, of those regularly availble at reasonable prices:
 a.) They offer greater precision over value, and do not vary from resistor to resistor as other brands, e.g., "matching" is not as difficult.
 b.) V-D's are also tremendously derated. For a given application, they will readily support _twice_ the power load for the same wattage rating
 4. As already mentioned, V-D's use value labels instead of color codes, actually reducing the chances of confusion or a mis-placed resistor.

 All of that said, there are certain instances where a V-D resistor does not sound as good. Those cases, more often than not, involve tube circuits where some noise and harshness is already present. A V-D resistor will not mask this - _at all._ In those cases, some of the boutique resistors will _sound_ better - Kiwame, Stackpole, etc.

 I've specifically replaced the V-D resistors on the outputs of my SOHA's and put in Stackpoles. The Stackpoles sound "sweeter" with no harshness. I doubt seriously that result is because the Stackpoles are better electrically. No doubt, the reverse is true, and in a manner similar to tubes vs. solid state. These differences are much less significant in a Millett Hybrid, btw.

 Also, I would never consider one of the boutique resistors in a solid-state circuit: those are V-D's all the way.


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## Garbz

1. Metal-film resistors have less noise than other resistor types.

 --True though this is so insignificant it bearly makes an impact on even measurement gear. Other factors play a much larger role.

 2. Metal-film resistors's resistance does not alter under heat.

 --Yes they do. the ppm/C varies quite considerably depending on the resistor construction.

 3. The V-D brand of metal-film resistors are the highest quality metal-film resistors, of those regularly availble at reasonable prices:
 a.) They offer greater precision over value, and do not vary from resistor to resistor as other brands, e.g., "matching" is not as difficult.

 --hogwash. The ones most people use have the same 1% precision. If it were any better Vishey-Dale would be screaming about how good their parts are by labeling them 0.5% or so.

 b.) V-D's are also tremendously derated. For a given application, they will readily support _twice_ the power load for the same wattage rating

 --They are also twice the size of most other resistors so this goes without saying. Also they are rated at a certain level, don't bet on it that they will all go beyond their rating. The ratings are there for a reason. Anyway resistors have a positive temp co-efficient, all will either settle at a temperature or smoke. I use generic 1W carbons in one of my projects with 1.5W across them. They seem to settle at around 130-140 degrees. They haven't burnt and the device has been working for years. Yay for dodgy engineering :S

 4. As already mentioned, V-D's use value labels instead of color codes, actually reducing the chances of confusion or a mis-placed resistor.

 --Now this is good. Unless you're like me and don't pay attention which way you bend the leads and the number ends up on the bottom. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 All of that said, there are certain instances where a V-D resistor does not sound as good. Those cases, more often than not, involve tube circuits where some noise and harshness is already present. A V-D resistor will not mask this - _at all._ In those cases, some of the boutique resistors will _sound_ better - Kiwame, Stackpole, etc.

 --Try as I may I have never heard a difference between resistors.

 Also, I would never consider one of the boutique resistors in a solid-state circuit: those are V-D's all the way.

 --Amen there. Spend money where it should be, on a more complicated circuit or better headphones. VDs are cheap, are they better then generic resistors? Who knows. They work just as well but they aren't magic audiophile grade crap by any means.


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## nysulli

i've done noise level comparisions between vishney metal film resistors (the blue ones hand matched) and standard radioshack carbon film ones (again hand matched) for a critical experiment setup.

 the vishney's were in fact quieter, the noise floor was dropped from 2mv to 1mv, yes a very minor difference, but in my case it was huge, as i was attempting to acquire data that needed to be as precise as possible.

 but in the end, i use them in my audio projects simply because their cheap, easy to find in any value, and you know their good quality


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## tomb

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Garbz* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_1. Metal-film resistors have less noise than other resistor types.

 --True though this is so insignificant it bearly makes an impact on even measurement gear. Other factors play a much larger role._

 

Others have much different opinions, and reported distortion measurements prove out. Is it just happenstance that the desire for a quality circuit went to metal film resistors instead of carbon?

  Quote:


 2. Metal-film resistors's resistance does not alter under heat.

 --Yes they do. the ppm/C varies quite considerably depending on the resistor construction. 
 

Not true, especially the V-D's, which are still spec'd to hold within a certain tolerance at twice their power rating - 5%. This is one of the reasons they are mil-spec'd for performance under extraordinary conditions.

  Quote:


 3. The V-D brand of metal-film resistors are the highest quality metal-film resistors, of those regularly availble at reasonable prices:
 a.) They offer greater precision over value, and do not vary from resistor to resistor as other brands, e.g., "matching" is not as difficult.

 --hogwash. The ones most people use have the same 1% precision. If it were any better Vishey-Dale would be screaming about how good their parts are by labeling them 0.5% or so. 
 

With respect, "Hogwash" doesn't qualify as an opinion difference. My varying mileage compared to your varying mileage says V-D's statistically vary less with their measurements out of the bag, period. IOW, their 1% variance, similar to their power rating, _is over-rated_. 

  Quote:


 4.) V-D's are also tremendously derated. For a given application, they will readily support _twice_ the power load for the same wattage rating

 --They are also twice the size of most other resistors so this goes without saying. Also they are rated at a certain level, don't bet on it that they will all go beyond their rating. The ratings are there for a reason. Anyway resistors have a positive temp co-efficient, all will either settle at a temperature or smoke. I use generic 1W carbons in one of my projects with 1.5W across them. They seem to settle at around 130-140 degrees. They haven't burnt and the device has been working for years. Yay for dodgy engineering :S 
 

Not true. The V-D's are documented for a true 5% at twice their power rating, as stated above. As for bigger size, so what? They are in the size range of acceptability - no different than other resistors at the 5% power rating. However, another resistor used in a circuit at 1% of its power rating does not have 1% tighter resistance tolerance. The V-D's do.

  Quote:


 4. As already mentioned, V-D's use value labels instead of color codes, actually reducing the chances of confusion or a mis-placed resistor.

 --Now this is good. Unless you're like me and don't pay attention which way you bend the leads and the number ends up on the bottom. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 

Yes, well - poor building practice will negate this advantage. 

  Quote:


 All of that said, there are certain instances where a V-D resistor does not sound as good. Those cases, more often than not, involve tube circuits where some noise and harshness is already present. A V-D resistor will not mask this - _at all._ In those cases, some of the boutique resistors will _sound_ better - Kiwame, Stackpole, etc.

 --Try as I may I have never heard a difference between resistors. 
 

Try more. A one-to-one comparison in many tube circuits make this change _obvious_. Again, why are there boutique resistors? Why do tube vendors sell carbon resistors with claims of "sweeter" sound? Sure, there's hype in how much, but the fundamental reason is indisputable.

  Quote:


 Also, I would never consider one of the boutique resistors in a solid-state circuit: those are V-D's all the way.

 --Amen there. Spend money where it should be, on a more complicated circuit or better headphones. VDs are cheap, are they better then generic resistors? Who knows. They work just as well but they aren't magic audiophile grade crap by any means. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 

Thankfully, we agreed on something. Too bad on the rest of it.


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## mono

Why? Because they look like plump little sausages. 

 On a more serious note, if a lot of people started claiming a different resistor sounded better at a similar price, they might become less popular, but as it stands it is easier to spend a few pennies more instead of wondering if you're missing out on something. At least, I assume this, I've used the V-Ds on various projects but didn't hesitate to use other metal films either when that's what I had on-hand, or were more convenient to place in an existing order, like the Yageo from Digikey. I can't hear a difference.


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## Seaside

Lot of good opinions regarding resistors, and that's good.

 I use whatever resistors available. 
 Don't care brand as long as it is 1% metal and accurate. 

 Go back to V-D, What I really like is its bright clear color of color code. It is really easy to read. You can distinguish colors w/o problem. You know, it is very hard to read when color is dull like... redish orange or redish brown... etc. Oh... its sausage like shape in some of V-D is interesting too. At least, V-D is good reliable brand. And I think that's good enough reason to go V-D.

 However, I would not choose V-D if I can get 5 other resistors with price of 1 good looking V-D.


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## AndrewFischer

It isn't all that clear from the other posts.

 The Vishay-Dale resistors everyone is talking about are the CMF/RNxx series of mil-spec resistors. There are other manufacturers of these resistors, but Mouser stocks the Dales.

 There are several grades of tolerance temperature coefficients. Mouser only carries the RNxxDxxxxF's that are 1% and 100ppm. RNxxC's are 50ppm and the E's are 25ppm.

 RNxx power ratings are specified over a military temperature range. In the commercial temp range they have a higher power rating. As I recall the 1/4W RN60s are 1/2W at commercial temperatures.


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## tomb

Yes, Andrew - thank you for that clarification. My comments were directed to the RN60 and RN55 V-D's available at Mouser and Newark. I don't know about the others.


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## ezkcdude

I use the PTF56 which are 0.1% precision and 10ppm. If you need better matching than 1%, and you don't have a good DMM (or enough time to hand match), these are a good choice. And yes, they also look cool.


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## AndrewFischer

Here is the datasheet for the parts in the OP:

http://www.vishay.com/docs/31019/ptf.pdf


 Like the RN55 and RN60 the PTF series are available in several tolerance and ppm ranges. Mouser carries a few of the .05% 5ppm parts along with a few more of the .1% 10ppm parts.

http://www.mouser.com/catalog/629/507.pdf

 At > $1.00 each, I've never used them.


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## Garbz

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tomb* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_snip_

 

Don't get me wrong. I agree they are designed to take a beating. But you said it yourself, talking about mil-spec is something different than normal resistors.

 Mil-spec devices have a standard (usually it means somethings like a much wider operating temperature, lower MTTF, etc), but a 1% 1W resistor is still a 1% 1W resistor. The reason they would go an extra mile if you put more power through them is their 1W rating must hold at a new much higher ambient temperature (part of the extra-ordinary conditions of milspec)

 My point is just to use the milspec purposefully, like for extra ambient operating conditions, and not as part of the equation to stretch their tollerance beyond normal levels. 

 Either way, the RN60s are still damn good resistors for the price.


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## Joshatdot

I like em cause you can read the vaules much EZ'er than color bands.


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## splaz

I don't find colour bands that much of an issue if the manufacturer uses fairly distinct colours. I've seen some where red, brown and orange all look a like. Also sometimes the colour of the body makes it hard to see blue, grey or white if it's the usual light blue ones.

 However if you can see it clearly I don't have a problem and the more common values like 1k, 4.7k and so on I can all identify fairly easily.


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## ericj

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ezkcdude* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I use the PTF56 which are 0.1% precision and 10ppm. If you need better matching than 1%, and you don't have a good DMM (or enough time to hand match), these are a good choice. And yes, they also look cool. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 


 Care to elaborate on when, in an audio circuit, you need greater than 1% precision?


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## threepointone

lazy bum who doesn't want to bother matching resistors?


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## Chops

I'm kind of partial to PRP resistors myself. They're very easy to read, and in my amp, they made a rather large improvement over the cheap blue generic ones that came stock.

 And adding some Audio Note tants in the input and output sections added that much more to the improvements. The Kiwames are there for anode duty, which ultimately effect the sound in some way I'm sure.

 All in all, I can honestly say that upgrading to quality resistors really can improve sound quality. I didn't think they would, but they certainly did.

 After reading about the V-D's, I think I might try them when I eventually build my SET tube amp. Why not, right?!


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## AndrewFischer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Chops* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_After reading about the V-D's, I think I might try them when I eventually build my SET tube amp. Why not, right?! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

RNxxD's might save you a few hundred dollars.

 I've thought about using Caddock MK-132s as they are far more compact than RN65 or RN70s. But the price keeps chasing me away.


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## hYdrociTy

would replacing all the resistors inside a gilmore lite help? or are they already hand matched?


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## Pars

Gilmore Lite: They should already be matched close enough (if your DC offset is low, you are fine). Matching resistors past a certain point is a waste of time, and should be of no sonic benefit.

 I've used Vishay-Dale RN series, PRP, BC and Roederstein. The Roedersteins are probably my favorite, but are discontinued and not available in many values. The Vishay-Dales don't seem to be any tighter than the others when it comes to matching (at least that I have seen), but they are good resistors. When I was a tech 20+ years ago, we used to use these. Course, they just said Dale on them 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


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## ezkcdude

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ericj* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Care to elaborate on when, in an audio circuit, you need greater than 1% precision?_

 

Yes, just take a look at the differential-to-single-ended topology of my DAC output stage (see the website in my sig). Matching can be very important for decent CMRR.


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## cotdt

the problem with cheap carbon resistors is that the higher frequencies are not linear. replacing them with metal oxide or metal film resistors improve the sound quality. it has nothing to do with matching.

 Vishay Dale S102 are the resistors to get for a no-holds-barred setup. Pretty much an ideal resistor.


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## Pars

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cotdt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_tVishay Dale S102 are the resistors to get for a no-holds-barred setup. Pretty much an ideal resistor._

 

At what, $7-$10 a pop? That would make a really expensive Dynahi


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## tomb

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Chops* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm kind of partial to PRP resistors myself. They're very easy to read, and in my amp, they made a rather large improvement over the cheap blue generic ones that came stock.

 And adding some Audio Note tants in the input and output sections added that much more to the improvements. The Kiwames are there for anode duty, which ultimately effect the sound in some way I'm sure.

 All in all, I can honestly say that upgrading to quality resistors really can improve sound quality. I didn't think they would, but they certainly did.

 After reading about the V-D's, I think I might try them when I eventually build my SET tube amp. Why not, right?! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Actually, NO. If you read my post, the V-D's are exactly the _wrong_ thing to put in a tube circuit. They will not mask any tube noise or harshness whatsoever. Your experience with Kiwame's and the other ones are not analogous to using V-D's.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cotdt* 
_the problem with cheap carbon resistors is that the higher frequencies are not linear. replacing them with metal oxide or metal film resistors improve the sound quality. it has nothing to do with matching._

 

This was listed among the many reasons to use V-D's in the first few posts. "_Nothing_ to do with matching." is not true, though. As you note, the non-linear response is solved by going to metal film or metal oxide, not specifically V-D's. So, there are other advantages with the V-D's - as in matching and better quality assurance.


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## Chops

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tomb* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Actually, NO. If you read my post, the V-D's are exactly the wrong thing to put in a tube circuit. They will not mask any tube noise or harshness whatsoever. Your experience with Kiwame's and the other ones are not analogous to using V-D's.
_

 

Whatever. It's all subjective and personal tastes. There's NO right and wrong when it comes to such things as this.


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## kipman725

For high end amplification it's worth springing for metal film resistors over carbon film as carbon film add an unpleasant sounding but low level distortion. I see no point in going for more expensive brands of metal film resistor though, they all have the same fundamental construction and low tolerances.


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## tomb

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Chops* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Whatever. It's all subjective and personal tastes. There's NO right and wrong when it comes to such things as this._

 

OK, maybe it was a long day yesterday and I wasn't expecting to be taken literally when making references to bandaids in another thread. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 All I meant was that the Kiwame's you have are as good as it gets with sound in a tube amp. V-D's are more for super-low distortion, which can actually be a disadvantage in tube circuits. You want a resistor (at least on the output) that can impart a "sweetness" to the sound. V-D's lose severely in that comparison with Kiwame's.


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## ericj

At the risk of raising the ire of the moderators, I'm going to suggest that in nearly all audio circuits, the use of any different kind of resistor, granted 'close enough' precision, is a purely emotional decision.


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## zer061zer0

So what is sugested for a tube amp..?

 CArbon type resistors


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