# Schiit Freya Impressions and Tube Rolling Thread



## IndieGradoFan

http://schiit.com/products/freya
  
 Freya is a balanced passive/active preamp for use in 2-channel systems, featuring a selectable passive stage, active JFET stage, or active 6SN7 tube stage.
  
 Let's share our impressions of Freya, tubes, and amplifier pairings.


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## Synergist969

Now that Freya's are beginning to come into possession of more/many(?) of us "Schiit-O-Philes"...
  
 Of those of you who have owned or at least heard both and Freya and Ragnarok, (as a pre-amp), in your audio systems, would you please compare/contrast the sound qualities of both Freya and Ragnarok...?...frequency curve/timbre, image size/breadth/depth, image specificity, etc...as I currently use my "Rag" as my stereo system pre-amp, but am VERY curious/interested in the Freya as a dedicated pre-amp, so as to not have to power-up another amplifier within my pre-amp, (60 watts/channel...),  when I am listen to my speakers, (driven by an Aragon 4004 amp)...
  
 Speaking of which, I DO wonder how Vidar would compare to my venerable Aragon...(200 watts /channel dual mono-block design, driving a pair of Lipinski Sound 707 monitors rated at 4 Ohms...)...
  
 Oh, and again, I wonder if some sort of a circuit/switch(?) could be designed/installed into the Freya so that one could use it as a pre-amp in either the passive or solid-state active mode of operation, *without* having the tube section under power, thus saving tube life AND some energy/heat generation...?...
  
 Anyone out there with a solution?...(other than to remove the tubes every time...lol...)
  
 If Freya had a circuit/option that would do the above, I would purchase it in a New York City gnat's heartbeat!...(even faster than a New York Minute...    ...)

 Edited by Synergist969 - Today at 8:07 am View History


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## belgiangenius

Thanks for starting this thread!
  
 I've had my Freya for over a week and love it.  I do have a question, though, considering tube preamps and noise.  Does anyone else detect noise with this preamp when in tube mode?
  
 Source:  Yggdrasil
 Preamp:  Freya, connected to Yggy with balanced cables
 Power Amp:  either Bryston 3BSST or Yamaha B2
  
 If I connect the Freya to either power amp with single ended cables (quality, blue jeans cables), when Yggy is idling, the speakers sound absolutely silent when Freya is in passive or JFET buffer mode.  BUT, when you switch Freya to tube mode, you notice a hiss coming from the mid range and a hum coming from the woofer.  It's not loud but clearly perceptible when you're standing directly next to the speakers.  The noise volume does not change with volume control on Freya.
  
 If I connect Freya to the Bryston using balanced cables, the noise is still only in tube mode there but it becomes almost imperceptible.  You have to put your ear right next to the drivers to even detect it.
  
 If I'm going to use the Bryston with this setup, I don't really care because I'll just use balanced cables.  But I'd also like to use the Freya with the B2.  The noise coming from the speakers with the singled ended cables connecting Freya and power amp is enough that it dissuades me from using my B2 in this setup.
  
 I've tried swapping tubes, but it doesn't really change the noise.
  
 Is this just par for the course with tube preamps, or should I be looking for a problem somewhere?


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## theveterans

Try match quad low noise NOS tubes and see if the problem goes away


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## belgiangenius

theveterans said:


> Try match quad low noise NOS tubes and see if the problem goes away


 
  
 Interesting.  Currently I am using matched pairs, Kenrad 1944 VT-231 in gain stage and Sylvania 1944 VT-231 in output buffer.
  
 I also tried the original tubes that came with the preamp - no difference in noise.


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## IndieGradoFan

belgiangenius said:


> Interesting.  Currently I am using matched pairs, Kenrad 1944 VT-231 in gain stage and Sylvania 1944 VT-231 in output buffer.
> 
> I also tried the original tubes that came with the preamp - no difference in noise.


 

 I get the same quiet noise -- inaudible from listening position but audible if I stand next to the speaker. I get this with every tube amp I've tried though. If you have any dimmable lights in the house, try turning those off. Every tube amp I own increases hum as I dim lights. You could also try an isolation transformer -- I generally use one for tube amps with good success.


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## US Blues

synergist969 said:


> Now that Freya's are beginning to come into possession of more/many(?) of us "Schiit-O-Philes"...
> 
> Of those of you who have owned or at least heard both and Freya and Ragnarok, (as a pre-amp), in your audio systems, would you please compare/contrast the sound qualities of both Freya and Ragnarok...?...frequency curve/timbre, image size/breadth/depth, image specificity, etc...as I currently use my "Rag" as my stereo system pre-amp, but am VERY curious/interested in the Freya as a dedicated pre-amp, so as to not have to power-up another amplifier within my pre-amp, (60 watts/channel...),  when I am listen to my speakers, (driven by an Aragon 4004 amp)...


 
  
 My Freya is due here later today. I currently use a Rag to power my system, and will be using Freya with the Rag until the Vidar's are out. Not a perfect comparison, but next week I'll share my impressions.


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## Synergist969

Dear US Blues:
  
     Great!...I look forward to it...    ...


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## sovereign

Why did the Freya and Saga not include fixed outputs for connecting a headphone amp?


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## RoundRound

Hey Guys,
 Thanks for starting this thread, great idea...
  
 I'm looking forward to getting a Freya once they reach Schiit's UK distributor... So far they don't seem o be in a hurry...
  
 Anyway this will be my first tube hifi device, I currently use the Yggy directly into an ATI 6002 amp and then a pair of ML Electromotions.
 I started stocking up on cool NOS tubes but it gets expensive very quickly - I think there was a spike in the demand for 6SN7 tubes - I wonder why...? 
  
 Did anyone try other types of tubes with an adapter? I hear 7N7 can be promising and cheap. Also I wonder if socket savers have any degrading effect on the sound and how would you get THEM out (if needed) without opening the case?
  
 Thank you, keep rolling!


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## Pandahead

belgiangenius said:


> Thanks for starting this thread!
> 
> I've had my Freya for over a week and love it.  I do have a question, though, considering tube preamps and noise.  Does anyone else detect noise with this preamp when in tube mode?
> 
> ...


 

 ​My system is all balanced also(Yggy/Freya/JC1 mono blocks). I replaced my Krell 280P with my Mjolnir 2 as an experiment when I got it upon release in August 2015 and never looked back. Fantastic. It was dead quiet. With the Krell you needed to put your ear by the speaker. I tried Jotty when I got it and it is dead quiet . I got a Saga when it was released so I could have remote at last while waiting for Freya. Saga being single ended in tube mode I expected some tweeter and mid range hiss which there was, it was noticeable from the listening position when music was stopped but not objectionable. Of course I'm used to more of that kind of thing as I also have a turntable and it's unavoidable there and more noticeable. Freya with stock tubes was noticeable in balanced mode and one of the tubes was noisy. I switched them out and now you have to be right up to the speakers to detect it. As time goes by I will try it single ended for fun and see if it's quieter than Saga. Oddly Saga is quieter in it's designated place in the den. I don't ever hear anything from the woofers. Maybe you have something else getting in. I will eventually go back to the stock tubes for fun and try eliminating the noisy one. That's my experience so far if it helps any.
  
 Freya is fantastic. I thought Mjolnir 2 and Jotty and Saga were/are fantastic as preamps at the time so I guess Freya is fantastic-er


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## MefAudio

belgiangenius said:


> Thanks for starting this thread!
> 
> I've had my Freya for over a week and love it.  I do have a question, though, considering tube preamps and noise.  Does anyone else detect noise with this preamp when in tube mode?
> 
> ...




I had the same problem as well, I even reached out to Nick about it and he thought it might be the tubes. Here is what I found. When I put in a platinum matched quad of new-production Tung Sols the noise almost went away completely. When I used any matched quad the noise was less. When I mixed and matched input and output tubes for me it was a little worse. The worst for me (so far) have been RCA black base (balanced, NOS). So to me the issue is the tubes. I hope this helps!


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## ToddRaymond

pandahead said:


> Freya is fantastic. I thought Mjolnir 2 and Jotty and Saga were/are fantastic as preamps at the time so I guess Freya is fantastic-er


 
  
 Could you please comment on what sort of improvements you've experienced with the Freya over the Mjolnir 2?  Apart from the obvious benefits–remote, fancier volume control, über rails, and the more glorious, tubier options offered by the 6SN7s–how dramatic of a difference have you noticed in things like soundstage, imaging, and noise floor (if any, given how quiet some 6922s can be)?  I'm just not sure I can be bothered with starting another tube rolling (mis)adventure.  Thanks!


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## Pandahead

turdski said:


> Could you please comment on what sort of improvements you've experienced with the Freya over the Mjolnir 2?  Apart from the obvious benefits–remote, fancier volume control, über rails, and the more glorious, tubier options offered by the 6SN7s–how dramatic of a difference have you noticed in things like soundstage, imaging, and noise floor (if any, given how quiet some 6922s can be)?  I'm just not sure I can be bothered with starting another tube rolling (mis)adventure.  Thanks!


 

 ​Freya is noticeably more dynamic with stock tubes or with any other tubes I have over Mjolnir 2. Saga is also but not like Freya. While Mjolnir 2 was absolutely dead quiet and Saga single ended is not, Saga with a  red base 5692 gives me better focused and more dynamic imaging, soundstage is similar. I was surprised. I would not go back. I would keep Saga as a pre if that's all Schiit had up their sleeve. I was not surprised by Freya's sound as Jason was so enthusiastic about it. I am pleased and wowed by what they did for $699.00 and  how much more dynamic and tighter focused it is using 5692's over Saga and therefore also Mjolnir 2. The stock tubes were not as focused nor did they produce such a large sound stage for me. Go balanced all the way.
  
 I have an original Lyr I still listen to in the bedroom so it can share tubes. I have an Icon Audio HP8 mkll that is 6SN7 so it can share tubes with the preamps. I hear you about the tube rolling. On the other hand it's nice to find tubes that compliment the rest of your gear. An option is Jotty if you don't need a remote. It's very much the same soundstage wise as Mjolnir 2 and dead quiet, after a bit I began to forget it wasn't Mjolnir 2. It is absolutely not that way with Freya! It would be sorely missed. That's been my journey so far. Hope that helps.


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## US Blues

Freya is in the house, running into the Ragnarok. The stock tubes are a bit noisy, and my matched quad of Tung Sol's is in the custody of the USPS until Monday, it seems.
  
 My early impression is that Freya reveals another dimension of reality that Rag alone does not. My GF, who is keen of ear can hear the difference on _Kind Of Blue,_ the texture of brass horns, Paul Chamber's bass, the sizzle of the cymbals. I also hear the dimensionality more clearly, the positioning of instruments in the space of the 30th Street studio, and other yummy things. 
  
 I am glad Jason is working diligently on the Vidar's, because that will complete my system. Well, that and the Manhattan Project.


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## Synergist969

MMM...glad to read all of this regarding Freya...NOW,...if they could only design/manufacture a version of Freya that, (without adversely affecting sound quality), would deactivate the active tube section when one simply wanted to _*NOT*_ actively listen to it...selecting passive or solid-state active mode, for background and/or sleep-time listening...I would be clicking the order button as soon as I finished this note, if not before writing it...
  
 Thank you gentlemen, (and any women out there as well), one and all, for providing your perceptions regarding Freya, and please continue to express your perceptions/opinions as the tubes burn-in/the circuitry in general burns in...it fuels MY obsession as well!...    ...lol...
  
 Wondering how Vidar, (or a pair of them), might work with my Lipinski Sound L-707 monitors, (4 Ohm rated), as my venerable Aragon 4004 is getting rather long in the tooth, is in all probability the source of a low to moderate level and audible 60 Hz. hum in the right channel...and if it is too old to be repairable might have to be replaced...    ...


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## JK-47

I have a Freya in my system that was making noise slightly in Jfet mode and more in Tube mode. Changing between stock, NOS RCA black base, and NOS Sylvania GTB had varying effects on the noise situation. Finally, the next day I narrowed it down to a dimmer switch in the kitchen... Much quieter with the dimmer switched completely off
  
 I can't wait to try the 6SN7 LISST when they become available.


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## Synergist969

jk-47 said:


> I have a Freya in my system that was making noise slightly in Jfet mode and more in Tube mode. Changing between stock, NOS RCA black base, and NOS Sylvania GTB had varying effects on the noise situation. Finally, the next day I narrowed it down to a dimmer switch in the kitchen... Much quieter with the dimmer switched completely off
> 
> I can't wait to try the 6SN7 LISST when they become available.


 
  
 Hmmm...


> I can't wait to try the 6SN7 LISST when they become available.


 
  
   Are you sure they are going to produce/provide LISST's for this tube...Freya...?...if I absolutely knew it would be true, and roughly WHEN the LISST's would be available, I would click the order button right now...
 Incidentally, how would one KNOW if a LISST version of the 6SN7 would be available...?...


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## debjitg

My Freya is on the way and gets delivered next week. Reading the noise issue with different tubes makes me a bit nervous.
  
 Where are folks buying the Tung Sol Platinum quads from ?


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## JK-47

Jason said so in "his book thread."


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## hornytoad

I have some noise coming only from the left speaker in tube mode on the Freya . I'm using all balanced cables . It's weird . It comes and goes . If I lift the Freya and move it around a little i can make it go away . Maybe power cables to close to one another ? 
This is not ground loop . 
Any suggestions ?
Sometimes when I start the Freya up and it's ready I can hear the noise and then sometimes when I start it up the noise is not there .


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## NoTimeFor

I have been listening to freya this weekend. My system is bimby as dac, bryston 4b3 for amp and dynaudio focus 380 for speakers. I am using all single end for now. Freya opened up sound in my system so much. I use the tube mode the most with stock tubes. Everything is better, Soundstage, imaging, timber, and etc. Instruments sound more natural and real. I do notice minor crackling noise from left speaker in tube mode time to time, but it does not bother me so much. But so far, freya is a keeper. Also, i don't mind the remote at all. I actually wouldn't want to spend more money for over engineered remote. Looking to get gumby and setup balanced connection in near future.


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## Synergist969

> Jason said so in "his book thread."


 
  
     
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  Cool!!!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Thank you for letting me know!...Now, just a matter of knowing when those LISST's are going to be available, (assuming that they sound good/are quiet and so forth...), and just possibly if that "magic circuit" I keep dreaming about can be designed/installed in a Freya iteration...  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  ...


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## US Blues

synergist969 said:


> Wondering how Vidar, (or a pair of them), might work with my Lipinski Sound L-707 monitors, (4 Ohm rated), as my venerable Aragon 4004 is getting rather long in the tooth, is in all probability the source of a low to moderate level and audible 60 Hz. hum in the right channel...and if it is too old to be repairable might have to be replaced...    ...


 
  
 The Aragon 4004 is a great sounding amp, and would match very nicely with a Freya. If you do need to replace it, a Vidar will drive your speakers well. Of course, if you have a large room and like to play your music at concert levels, you'll want a pair of Vidars.


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## Synergist969

Yes...I certainly cannot disagree...and wondering how the two amps would compare, sonically speaking...as well as if a pair of Vidar's, in "balanced/bridged-mode", would handle the listed 4 Ohm impedance load of the Lipinski L-707 monitors...?...I keep reading that in balanced/bridged-mode, the Vidars may not be able to handle 4 Ohm speakers...    ...


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## Pandahead

hornytoad said:


> I have some noise coming only from the left speaker in tube mode on the Freya . I'm using all balanced cables . It's weird . It comes and goes . If I lift the Freya and move it around a little i can make it go away . Maybe power cables to close to one another ?
> This is not ground loop .
> Any suggestions ?
> Sometimes when I start the Freya up and it's ready I can hear the noise and then sometimes when I start it up the noise is not there .


 

 ​I'm guessing you have a noisy tube. Don't worry, tubes are a curious bunch of creatures, maybe its responding to being jostled around a bit when you move it. I had a noisy tube once that a little tap would fix. It probably sounds scratchy and erratic when it comes and goes rather than the constant faint or not so faint white noise hiss that is likely present if you get up close to the speaker's tweeters? I had that noise fully balanced also on mine. I put in my better tubes and dead silent from a foot away. Some day I'll figure out which one was the culprit. If you don't have any other tubes on hand you could try moving the front ones back and the back ones front, that will put the pairs in the opposite channel, and if the noise is now on the right side it will put your mind at ease if you're curious. Now you're down to likely one of those two being the guilty party. Then you could swap the input with the follower of those two and that might make it go away or be less assuming one tube is responsible.


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## belgiangenius

Thanks for all the responses on the noise issue.
  
 As I suspected, it seems this is par for the course with tubes.  Glad there isn't anything wrong with my Freya.


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## hornytoad

pandahead said:


> ​I'm guessing you have a noisy tube. Don't worry, tubes are a curious bunch of creatures, maybe its responding to being jostled around a bit when you move it. I had a noisy tube once that a little tap would fix. It probably sounds scratchy and erratic when it comes and goes rather than the constant faint or not so faint white noise hiss that is likely present if you get up close to the speaker's tweeters? I had that noise fully balanced also on mine. I put in my better tubes and dead silent from a foot away. Some day I'll figure out which one was the culprit. If you don't have any other tubes on hand you could try moving the front ones back and the back ones front, that will put the pairs in the opposite channel, and if the noise is now on the right side it will put your mind at ease if you're curious. Now you're down to likely one of those two being the guilty party. Then you could swap the input with the follower of those two and that might make it go away or be less assuming one tube is responsible.



Thanks for the advice. I moved the two tubes in front to the back and the back to the front and not the noise is coming from the right speaker and not the left one. 

These are brand new tung sols as i replaced the stock tubes. 

So maybe i have a bad tube. I know tubes can be noisy,I have a Rogue tube amp. 

The noise happens intermittently .

So are the front tubes on the Freya the right or left side ?


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## belgiangenius

As I understand it, signal goes through the right side tubes first as an amplification stage and then the left side tubes as an output buffer.
  
 Anyone considering buying an isolation transformer for the freya?  You can get a small one for ~$150.


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## IndieGradoFan

belgiangenius said:


> As I understand it, signal goes through the right side tubes first as an amplification stage and then the left side tubes as an output buffer.
> 
> Anyone considering buying an isolation transformer for the freya?  You can get a small one for ~$150.


 

 I use a Tripp-Lite IS500HG for my Freya, Gungir, phono preamp, and WA6. I haven't tried Freya without it -- I need the isolation transformer for the WA6 due to some interference with the home theater setup that's on the same circuit.


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## US Blues

synergist969 said:


> Yes...I certainly cannot disagree...and wondering how the two amps would compare, sonically speaking...as well as if a pair of Vidar's, in "balanced/bridged-mode", would handle the listed 4 Ohm impedance load of the Lipinski L-707 monitors...?...I keep reading that in balanced/bridged-mode, the Vidars may not be able to handle 4 Ohm speakers...    ...


 

 Monoblock Vidars will make your speakers sing. All this stuff about them not being able to handle a 4 ohm load is rubbish. Unless you're trying to fill Madison Square Garden with a single set of Lipinski monitors.


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## bmanone

Received my Freya Friday, I must have gotten lucky on the noise front, no noise what so ever in all three modes (passive, jfet buffer, tube buffer) listening with my best ear right next to the speaker (right and left, no music playing)  and volume all the way up or down.  The tube buffer sounds best (stock tubes), the music is so much more involving than before (than with my Yamaha CX-2000 Control Amplifier), the instruments and voice have better location and the sound stage has better height, width and depth.  All in all it just sounds more realistic than before.  I’ve been told tubes compress the sound, but to me it seems I’m hearing more than I did before and with greater dynamic range.  I’m using the Bimby into the Freya into a restored Yamaha B-2x amplifier into Fried R/4 tower speakers (reworked crossovers using all polypropylene capacitors).


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## theveterans

bmanone said:


> Received my Freya Friday, I must have gotten lucky on the noise front, no noise what so ever in all three modes (passive, jfet buffer, tube buffer) listening with my best ear right next to the speaker (right and left, no music playing)  and volume all the way up or down.  The tube buffer sounds best (stock tubes), the music is so much more involving than before (than with my Yamaha CX-2000 Control Amplifier), the instruments and voice have better location and the sound stage has better height, width and depth.  All in all it just sounds more realistic than before.  I’ve been told tubes compress the sound, but to me it seems I’m hearing more than I did before and with greater dynamic range.  I’m using the Bimby into the Freya into a restored Yamaha B-2x amplifier into Fried R/4 tower speakers (reworked crossovers using all polypropylene capacitors).


 
  
 Wait 'till you swap out with 1950's NOS 6SN7GT tubes. They make the soundstage, imaging and dynamics even more focused.


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## leafy7382

I'll wait for the LISST for Freya to avoid tube rollin'


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## theveterans

leafy7382 said:


> I'll wait for the LISST for Freya to avoid tube rollin'


 
  
 I doubt Schiit will have LISST for Freya / Saga since there's the JFET buffer and passive mode already to cover that. The fun thing about rollin' tubes is you discover what's best for your system or not. Wish the LISST tubes are on-par with the 5692s that I have so I don't need to roll tubes anymore as well.


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## watchnerd

I was getting some weird noises (sometimes microphony, sometimes scratchiness) out of my left channel so moved my tubes around.  
  
 It was the first time I took a close look at what kind of tubes I got.
  
 I have 4 x 6H8C.
  
 Black bases.  Some have some kind of sealant or glue near the bottom.  They look vintage, but in good shape. I guess they're probably Russian?
  
 What did you get?


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## leafy7382

theveterans said:


> I doubt Schiit will have LISST for Freya / Saga since there's the JFET buffer and passive mode already to cover that. The fun thing about rollin' tubes is you discover what's best for your system or not. Wish the LISST tubes are on-par with the 5692s that I have so I don't need to roll tubes anymore as well.


 
  
 Neither the passive nor the JFET buffer converts SE to balanced, so I am still keeping my fingers crossed


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## Synergist969

> Originally Posted by *JK-47*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
  
   Are you sure they are going to produce/provide LISST's for this tube...Freya...?...if I absolutely knew it would be true, and roughly WHEN the LISST's would be available, I would click the order button right now...
 Incidentally, how would one KNOW if a LISST version of the 6SN7 would be available...?...
  


> Jason said so in "his book thread."


 
  
   Well, if JK-47 is correct...then there should be LISST's coming for the 6S7N tubes...unless there is any evidence/indication to the contrary...?...


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## JK-47

theveterans said:


> I doubt Schiit will have LISST for Freya / Saga since there's the JFET buffer and passive mode already to cover that. The fun thing about rollin' tubes is you discover what's best for your system or not. Wish the LISST tubes are on-par with the 5692s that I have so I don't need to roll tubes anymore as well.


 
  
  


synergist969 said:


> Are you sure they are going to produce/provide LISST's for this tube...Freya...?...if I absolutely knew it would be true, and roughly WHEN the LISST's would be available, I would click the order button right now...
> Incidentally, how would one KNOW if a LISST version of the 6SN7 would be available...?...
> 
> 
> Well, if JK-47 is correct


 
  
 OK, to end the specualtion and put the old wives sewing circle gossipers to bed happy. Here is Jason talking about the 6SN7 LISST.
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/701900/schiit-happened-the-story-of-the-worlds-most-improbable-start-up/13110#post_12929614
  
post #13114


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## Synergist969

Dear JK-47:
  
     Excellent follow-up post sir, and excellent news!...THANK YOU sincerely...    ...NOW I know where my next bar raising effort goes...


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## hornytoad

I can tell you that the matched Tung Sol's I bought are much better than the stock tubes. 
  
 I just did a quick test and put the stock tubes back in . Listened . Put the Tung Sol's in . Listened. 
  
 Not even close . 
  
 The Tung Sol's have better clarity, more meat on the bones ,are more lively and offer a better soundstage. 
  
 These are new production.


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## bigro

My Freya is finally in my possession. To bad I have the remaining remnants of a cold and im still a bit congested so my hearing is a bit off. What I hear so far though is impressive even with the stock tubes. I will get some rolling done once my congestion has gone away. 
  
 On the Noise with the Tube Stages. If it is a very low hiss when you get very close to the tweeter I have hear that with other tube gear and is usually the same level on both sides. If you hear more of a Hum it can be from the Power, try different outlets or as I ended up doing getting a beefy power conditioner. Your Neighbors Blow dryer or In my case  HVAC system can be creating the noise.Also even if your whole chain is balanced your amp to speaker connections is just 2 Wires and can pick up interference. Make sure there are no power cables laying on top of them. (I know if you are using Active monitors this does not really apply). The Hum could also be a bad tube so the suggestion made of moving the tubes will help you figure that out as the sound will follow


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## US Blues

I'm curious how many other folks here are running an Yggy into their Freya? I've had some good listening time today, and my gosh!, this combo sounds so good.


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## MefAudio

us blues said:


> I'm curious how many other folks here are running an Yggy into their Freya? I've had some good listening time today, and my gosh!, this combo sounds so good.




I'm also running Yggy with Freya and I love it! To be honest I wasn't impressed with Yggy when I first got it but after some break-in time it got much better. Also, I have to say with the matched Tung sol new production tubes or 5692 red base tubes the Freya/Yggy combo is frikin nuts! VERY high detail, amazing bass which I really like and fantastic soundstage with my legacys. Bottom line is the Freya really made me appreciate the Yggy and once I get the NAD out of the chain I'm expecting to hear the full potential of this amazing DAC.


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## belgiangenius

mefaudio said:


> I'm also running Yggy with Freya and I love it! To be honest I wasn't impressed with Yggy when I first got it but after some break-in time it got much better. Also, I have to say with the matched Tung sol new production tubes or 5692 red base tubes the Freya/Yggy combo is frikin nuts! VERY high detail, amazing bass which I really like and fantastic soundstage with my legacys. Bottom line is the Freya really made me appreciate the Yggy and once I get the NAD out of the chain I'm expecting to hear the full potential of this amazing DAC.




How close to the 5692s do the new Tung Sols sound?

I read inconsistent reports of the Tung Sols. Some people say they are great, some people say virtually all NOS tubes beat them.


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## MefAudio

belgiangenius said:


> How close to the 5692s do the new Tung Sols sound?
> 
> I read inconsistent reports of the Tung Sols. Some people say they are great, some people say virtually all NOS tubes beat them.




To answer that I'll give a rundown of what I've listened to and how they sound on Freya. First of all, to my ears matched quads sound better than using the stock tubes for output and swapping out the input. With that said there are several tubes that I only have two of, so I have no choice.

1. RCA NOS 5692 red base matched pair (stock tubes for output buffer) are the best I've heard so far. Amazing detail and fantastic bass. Really amazing!
2. CBS NOS 5692 matched pair (I'm pretty sure these are also RCA red base because they sound almost identical and look identical). Probably 98% of the RCA.
3. Tung Sol matched quad new production- unfair advantage here because I have a quad... BUT they are probably 90% of the 5692 to my ears. Also they are very good looking tubes. The disadvantage is in the bass compared to RCA. Still strong and if you didn't know it you would not be able to tell the difference, until you put in those RCAs.
4. Tung Sol mouse ear matched pair (stock tubes for output buffer). They sound good but I was sadly disappointed, bass is ok and detail is high but they sound... subdued I guess. Just a little flat, not as sharp as the Tung Sol new production. These are probably 75% of the RCAs and 85ish% of the Tung Sols.
5. RCA black base matched pair- good tubes, much better than stock. Slightly less detailed than the mouse ear but far more detailed than stock. Probably 65% of RCAs
6. Philco NOS (GE 6sn7GTB) matched pair, these are slightly less detailed and worse bass than the RCA black base. Probably 55% of the RCAs
7. Stock quad (I think 6h8c, Russian NOS), these were impressive the first time I ever heard tubes (which was the Freya) but after some quick swapping, they are clearly not as good. Probably 35% of the RCAs.

I have a very closely matched RCA grey glass NOS quad from 1945 JAN that I have not tested yet. I'm thinking of keeping it for the Vidars so the quad can really shine. I suspect that one will slip between the CBS and the Tung Sols but that is pure speculation.

I hope this helps. My recommendation (and what I'm going to do) is to purchase a matched new production Tung Sol quad for regular/daily use (which I already have) and a matched pair for the output buffers (which I need to order). I do feel like the stock tubes are effecting my NOS tubes in a negative way acoustically so trading them for the new production Tung Sols makes a ton of sense.


----------



## snip3r77

subscribed


----------



## belgiangenius

mefaudio said:


> To answer that I'll give a rundown of what I've listened to and how they sound on Freya. First of all, to my ears matched quads sound better than using the stock tubes for output and swapping out the input. With that said there are several tubes that I only have two of, so I have no choice.
> 
> 1. RCA NOS 5692 red base matched pair (stock tubes for output buffer) are the best I've heard so far. Amazing detail and fantastic bass. Really amazing!
> 2. CBS NOS 5692 matched pair (I'm pretty sure these are also RCA red base because they sound almost identical and look identical). Probably 98% of the RCA.
> ...


 
  
 Excellent summary.  Thanks.  I have two CBS 5692 on the way, so I'm excited!
  
 Put your best, most transparent tubes in the output buffer position.  So, try your RCA red base in the gain stage position and your new Tung Sols in the output buffer position, and tell us what you think.
  
 I'd also like to know what you think of the RCA grey glass.  I have two of those on the way as well.  People report those as being lush and very tubey, so you may have to only try two of those with something transparent in the output buffer position or your sound might get too gooey. 
  
 My best setup so far is 2 Ken-RAD VT231 in the gain stage and 2 Sylvania VT-231 in the output buffer stage.


----------



## dtm300

Interesting posts so far on the Freya.   Mine is dead quiet - no hiss with stock or replacement quads.
  
 So far I only have matched quads (stock and replacements I have) in the Freya.   In the past I have own Pre's with Cathode Followers and in those Pre's the voltage gain tubes were the ones more responsible for the "sound" of the unit.  The CF position did not exhibit as much of a change.   But again this is the Freya and I will have to do some more swapping/testing to see how it responds.


----------



## bigro

dtm300 said:


> Interesting posts so far on the Freya.   Mine is dead quiet - no hiss with stock or replacement quads.
> 
> So far I only have matched quads (stock and replacements I have) in the Freya.   In the past I have own Pre's with Cathode Followers and in those Pre's the voltage gain tubes were the ones more responsible for the "sound" of the unit.  The CF position did not exhibit as much of a change.   But again this is the Freya and I will have to do some more swapping/testing to see how it responds.


 

 To hear the hiss on mine you have to get about 6 -8inches of the tweeter. A Non issue, issue especially when I am sitiing about 12 feet away!
  
 I have had the Freya for about 2 days now. I will say that at first the stock tubes did not sound so good as with other tubes I have tried however putting a good 10 to 12 hours on them has made a difference. I swapped the Input Pair with a Set of  GE 6SN7GTB with Side getters this morning, I will burn those in for a while and see where that gets me. I also Have a Pair of '54 Black Based RCA 6SN7GT's to experiment with as well. It seems the New Tung sols are doing well here. 
  
 A few notes. Comparing to my Bimby And Valhalla 2 the Finish is a little different. The Grain of the Brushed Aluminum housing is Much Finer which lends to a more refined look. Also the edges have a Slight Bevel on them which is a Nice Touch and the opening for the tubes also have a Bevel which is not there on the Vali 2 (The Valhalla 2 has a Painted metal Plate in this section).
  
 As many of you already know, the way the Volume control works if you use the Remote to adjust the Volume you then have to turn the knob below that level for the knob to retake control.I found that If You use the Remote to use turn the Volume to the Minimum setting The Knob cannot retake control unless you use the remote to turn it up on "notch" then turn the knob to it's minimum setting. I did not realize this at first and though I broke it. Also It seems when you Mute the Freya the volume Knob and Remote Volume control are disabled until you use the mute button again to unmute it. With that I am not complaining, None of these thing bother me it just took a me a little experimenting to figure out what it was doing and why, Hopefully this helps some who are expecting freya owners.


----------



## watchnerd

bigro said:


> A few notes. Comparing to my Bimby And Valhalla 2 the Finish is a little different. The Grain of the Brushed Aluminum housing is Much Finer which lends to a more refined look. Also the edges have a Slight Bevel on them which is a Nice Touch and the opening for the tubes also have a Bevel which is not there on the Vali 2 (The Valhalla 2 has a Painted metal Plate in this section).


 
  
 I agree.
  
 At first I thought the Freya felt less solid than my Mjolnir 2, in part because the case doesn't wrap around the bottom.
  
 But when I compare the aluminum finish, the Freya is much much finer than the older Schiit.


----------



## hornytoad

mefaudio said:


> To answer that I'll give a rundown of what I've listened to and how they sound on Freya. First of all, to my ears matched quads sound better than using the stock tubes for output and swapping out the input. With that said there are several tubes that I only have two of, so I have no choice.
> 
> 1. RCA NOS 5692 red base matched pair (stock tubes for output buffer) are the best I've heard so far. Amazing detail and fantastic bass. Really amazing!
> 2. CBS NOS 5692 matched pair (I'm pretty sure these are also RCA red base because they sound almost identical and look identical). Probably 98% of the RCA.
> ...


 
 Excellent post and after listening to the new Production Tung Sol's ,I agree with you here. How do you find the noise levels
 on the 5692 tubes? I do some nearfield listening with Genelecs and was wondering about this.


----------



## debjitg

Freya arrived today but the remote control wasn't included. The built quality is excellent and on par with other products (being a Yggy owner) and feels solid despite it being only 11lbs.
  
 Unlike others, the stock tubes has a ton of microphonics. Tap on the chassis and you can hear it loud on the speakers. At higher volume level (without playing anything) it creates a whistling sound from the speakers and I am surprised it happens in Jfet mode also. I had some used Tung Sol laying around and after replacing with the stock tubes, most of the problems are gone. Will let it play and burn in for couple of days. Typically what is the burn in time others experienced ?
  
 Does anyone one know if a universal remote (like Logitech Harmony) works with the Schiit ? I tried to add it but Schiit isn't listed as a manufacturer.
  
 PS: Have written to Schiit about the remote and got a blazing fast response with usps tracking number that it has shipped


----------



## watchnerd

debjitg said:


> Unlike others, the stock tubes has a ton of microphonics. Tap on the chassis and you can hear it loud on the speakers. At higher volume level (without playing anything) it creates a whistling sound from the speakers and I am surprised it happens in Jfet mode also.


 
  
 I had similar issues with my 6H8C tubes, although only in 1 channel.  After contacting Schiit and going through a diagnostic procedure (i.e. move the tubes around, see if it changes channels), they decided to send me warranty replacement tubes.


----------



## hornytoad

watchnerd said:


> I had similar issues with my 6H8C tubes, although only in 1 channel.  After contacting Schiit and going through a diagnostic procedure (i.e. move the tubes around, see if it changes channels), they decided to send me warranty replacement tubes.



I will never use the stock tubes after listening to the Tung 
Sols
I actually had glue attaching the tube to the base on the stock tubes breaking off and I didn't want pieces dropping inside the unit . 
I think the stock tubes are poorly manufactured .


----------



## Baldr

Wholleeeeeeeeeee Schiit!!!.............  I just checked eBay for prices on 5692 tubes.  A hundred and over each!!!!  Even 6SN7s are getting tough to get.  I can't believe what all of you Schiitheads are doing to the market!!


----------



## snip3r77

I think just go for the new production Tung Sols


----------



## belgiangenius

baldr said:


> Wholleeeeeeeeeee Schiit!!!.............  I just checked eBay for prices on 5692 tubes.  A hundred and over each!!!!  Even 6SN7s are getting tough to get.  I can't believe what all of you Schiitheads are doing to the market!!


 
  
 Hey, you chose to use the 6SN7, which doesn't have a whole lot of NOS stock out there! 
  
 So, now we're buying them all.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 I bet it was a conspiracy.  You guys at Schiit probably bought several thousand 5692s and are sitting on them waiting for them to hit $1,000 a pop.


----------



## debjitg

Yes, I agree. The Tung Sols seems very good on this pre. I briefly tested against a Sylvania NOS GTB and like the Tung Sols better.
  
 Its being a long time I had bought mine and wondering where are folks getting these days from ? Matched quad is needed ?


----------



## Baldr

belgiangenius said:


> Hey, you chose to use the 6SN7, which doesn't have a whole lot of NOS stock out there!
> 
> So, now we're buying them all.
> 
> ...


 

 Naaah, it wasn't the guys at Schiit.  Just me on my 5692 hoarding speculation.  In a prior life I did well with tulips.


----------



## belgiangenius

snip3r77 said:


> I think just go for the Nee production Tung Sols




A few people have now reported liking the new production Tungsols.

How would you characterize the sound? Do they have that magical midrange touch?

That is crucial to me. I almost wish Schiit had used 12AT7 because I already have Telefunken ECC801S that will give me goose bumps on vocals.


----------



## theveterans

belgiangenius said:


> A few people have now reported liking the new production Tungsols.
> 
> How would you characterize the sound? Do they have that magical midrange touch?
> 
> That is crucial to me. I almost wish Schiit had used 12AT7 because I already have Telefunken ECC801S that will give me goose bumps on vocals.


 
  
 NOS Sylvania GTA (not GTB) have that midrange sweetness to it from one user.


----------



## snip3r77

One can consider the Electro-Harmonix 6SN7EH which is similarly priced


----------



## watchnerd

snip3r77 said:


> One can consider the Electro-Harmonix 6SN7EH which is similarly priced


 
  
 Isn't EH the same factory (New Sensor) as new Tung-Sols, Sovteks, etc?
  
 If so, what's the difference between the EH and Tung Sol models?


----------



## theveterans

watchnerd said:


> Isn't EH the same factory (New Sensor) as new Tung-Sols, Sovteks, etc?
> 
> If so, what's the difference between the EH and Tung Sol models?


 
  
 The tubes appear identical to my eyes except for chrome/fake chrome top coating + black smoked glass that extends to the top mica on the EH model. Plates can vary from black to gray color on some of the pics I've seen, but the geometry and the length are the same. Support rods holding the micas are also identical to my eyes. One has to test match quads of EH (black base) against the Tungsol to find out if there's sonic difference between them.


----------



## watchnerd

theveterans said:


> The tubes appear identical to my eyes except for chrome/fake chrome top coating + black smoked glass that extends to the top mica on the EH model. Plates can vary from black to gray color on some of the pics I've seen, but the geometry and the length are the same. Support rods holding the micas are also identical to my eyes. One has to test match quads of EH (black base) against the Tungsol to find out if there's sonic difference between them.


 
  
 Thanks!
  
 Has anyone tried JJ's or Shuguangs?
  
 I really like the JJ ECC88 and 12AX7, but don't know if their version of the 6SN7 is worthy.


----------



## bigro

theveterans said:


> The tubes appear identical to my eyes except for chrome/fake chrome top coating + black smoked glass that extends to the top mica on the EH model. Plates can vary from black to gray color on some of the pics I've seen, but the geometry and the length are the same. Support rods holding the micas are also identical to my eyes. One has to test match quads of EH (black base) against the Tungsol to find out if there's sonic difference between them.


 
 That Chrome Looking stuff is the Getter. http://www.thetubestore.com/Resources/Matching-and-other-tube-info/Blue-Glow


----------



## MefAudio

hornytoad said:


> Excellent post and after listening to the new Production Tung Sol's ,I agree with you here. How do you find the noise levels
> on the 5692 tubes? I do some nearfield listening with Genelecs and was wondering about this.




The RCA 5692s had very little noise or hiss. It was there but very quiet. The Tung Sols were also very low. Stock tubes and surprisingly the CBS tubes were both high (I think one of the CBS tubes might be going bad which might explain part of that). RCA black base were moderate to low in my opinion.

I ordered a matched sextet new production Tung Sol (gives me a spare quad and a pair for matching with my exotic pairs). Feeling pretty good about putting some hours on Freya now


----------



## motberg

hornytoad said:


> I have some noise coming only from the left speaker in tube mode on the Freya . I'm using all balanced cables . It's weird . It comes and goes . If I lift the Freya and move it around a little i can make it go away . Maybe power cables to close to one another ?
> This is not ground loop .
> Any suggestions ?
> Sometimes when I start the Freya up and it's ready I can hear the noise and then sometimes when I start it up the noise is not there .


 

 I have some balanced cables that are very nice sounding, but not shielded... causes a problem when I use some tube gear (I do not have a Freya yet...)


----------



## KoshNaranek

baldr said:


> Wholleeeeeeeeeee Schiit!!!.............  I just checked eBay for prices on 5692 tubes.  A hundred and over each!!!!  Even 6SN7s are getting tough to get.  I can't believe what all of you Schiitheads are doing to the market!!




Here is a story that now hurts me every time I think about it.

I grew up 6 miles from RCA Missile and Surface Radar Division in Moorestown NJ.

I remember RCA red base tubes for sale at the flea market in Berlin NJ all through my childhood. There were always lots of tubes, but I remember the red bases because they stood out.


----------



## dtm300

mefaudio said:


> To answer that I'll give a rundown of what I've listened to and how they sound on Freya. First of all, to my ears matched quads sound better than using the stock tubes for output and swapping out the input. With that said there are several tubes that I only have two of, so I have no choice.
> 
> I hope this helps. My recommendation (and what I'm going to do) is to purchase a matched new production Tung Sol quad for regular/daily use (which I already have) and a matched pair for the output buffers (which I need to order). I do feel like the stock tubes are effecting my NOS tubes in a negative way acoustically so trading them for the new production Tung Sols makes a ton of sense.


 
 Can you tell me how many hours you had on each set of tubes while doing your listing and comparisons?


----------



## bigro

koshnaranek said:


> Here is a story that now hurts me every time I think about it.
> 
> I grew up 6 miles from RCA Missile and Surface Radar Division in Moorestown NJ.
> 
> I remember RCA red base tubes for sale at the flea market in Berlin NJ all through my childhood. There were always lots of tubes, but I remember the red bases because they stood out.


 
 Now we just need a time machine and a big trunk to head back in time and scoop these up. On the Way back to Present day we will make a quick stop in the early 80's to buy some apple stock too and another in the 90's and put a stop to what would become Modern Recording practices.


----------



## artur9

bigro said:


> Now we just need a time machine and a big trunk to head back in time and scoop these up. On the Way back to Present day we will make a quick stop in the early 80's to buy some apple stock too and another in the 90's and put a stop to what would become Modern Recording practices.


 

 Stop Facebook, too, please.  Oh, and stop in the 70s and give them some 88/24 equipment.


----------



## ggones

Got my Freya today to use with Gumby and Genelec monitors. Was dissapointed in the amount of noise coming from the right speaker (or was it the left? Can't remember now) until I swapped the upper right and left tubes. Now I get an intermittent ringing noise that seems to go away if you gently tap the tubes. Maybe I have a bad tube. This is my first tube gear so I'm learning new things. I ordered a new set of matched Tung Sols to try out.

Was also going to stack Freya on Gumby, but the heat from Freya concerns me a bit. Maybe I should find something to use as a spacer. Anyone else stacking?

Besides dealing with a noisey tube, I'm happy with the purchase. My music sounds really good.


----------



## MefAudio

dtm300 said:


> Can you tell me how many hours you had on each set of tubes while doing your listing and comparisons?




Not much, I would say about an hour on the exotics and between 15-20 hours on the stock and Tung Sol tubes. I know break-in time is a factor so things might change to my ears as things break in more.


----------



## hornytoad

ggones said:


> Got my Freya today to use with Gumby and Genelec monitors. Was dissapointed in the amount of noise coming from the right speaker (or was it the left? Can't remember now) until I swapped the upper right and left tubes. Now I get an intermittent ringing noise that seems to go away if you gently tap the tubes. Maybe I have a bad tube. This is my first tube gear so I'm learning new things. I ordered a new set of matched Tung Sols to try out.
> 
> Was also going to stack Freya on Gumby, but the heat from Freya concerns me a bit. Maybe I should find something to use as a spacer. Anyone else stacking?
> 
> Besides dealing with a noisey tube, I'm happy with the purchase. My music sounds really good.



I had the same tube noise going on and started moving tubes around . Eventually after several swaps the noise went away . Not sure how I did it but tubes can be a fickle thing . 
That was with new Tung Sols which by the way sound very good .


----------



## debjitg

Anybody knows if the preamp has any break in time ?


----------



## watchnerd

debjitg said:


> Anybody knows if the preamp has any break in time ?


 
  
 By my calculations, it reaches 80% of maximum at 19.276 hours of use and 100% of maximum at 42.891 hours.
  
 If you're in a leap year, subtract 24 hours.


----------



## RoundRound

Hey guys,
 Did anyone try the Freya with socket savers/adapters? How easy/hard it is to remove them? Do they adversely effect the sound?
  
 I'm interested in the idea of using 7N7 tubes with the freya - which are electrically identical to 6SN7 bur require an adapter. NOS 7N7 tubes are much cheaper than 6SN7...


----------



## US Blues

roundround said:


> Hey guys,
> Did anyone try the Freya with socket savers/adapters? How easy/hard it is to remove them? Do they adversely effect the sound?
> 
> I'm interested in the idea of using 7N7 tubes with the freya - which are electrically identical to 6SN7 bur require an adapter. *NOS 7N7 tubes are much cheaper than 6SN7...*


 
  
 Not anymore!


----------



## US Blues

debjitg said:


> Anybody knows if the preamp has any break in time ?


 

 It is hard to differentiate the break in of the unit from that of the tubes. I got my quad of new production Tung Sol's installed yesterday morning, which, although they are clearly better than the stock tubes, also spent the day changing their sonic character, so a step forwards and as top backwards simultaneously. I am waiting until the weekend before I deeply reassess what I'm hearing. I'm simply unsure which weekend I am waiting for!


----------



## dtm300

mefaudio said:


> Not much, I would say about an hour on the exotics and between 15-20 hours on the stock and Tung Sol tubes. I know break-in time is a factor so things might change to my ears as things break in more.



In my experience I have found at least 50 hours (or about two days straight of "on" time) should give you a good idea of what they do or not


----------



## debjitg

us blues said:


> It is hard to differentiate the break in of the unit from that of the tubes. I got my quad of new production Tung Sol's installed yesterday morning, which, although they are clearly better than the stock tubes, also spent the day changing their sonic character, so a step forwards and as top backwards simultaneously. I am waiting until the weekend before I deeply reassess what I'm hearing. I'm simply unsure which weekend I am waiting for!


 

 Makes sense. I am currently using an old quad Tung Sol that I had laying around while waiting for the new ones to arrive this weekend. After playing continuously for little over a day, today morning I hear ever so slight change in the sound in a good way. I would be interested to know what you reassess.


----------



## US Blues

debjitg said:


> us blues said:
> 
> 
> > It is hard to differentiate the break in of the unit from that of the tubes. I got my quad of new production Tung Sol's installed yesterday morning, which, although they are clearly better than the stock tubes, also spent the day changing their sonic character, so a step forwards and as top backwards simultaneously. I am waiting until the weekend before I deeply reassess what I'm hearing. I'm simply unsure which weekend I am waiting for!
> ...


 

 The new Tung Sol's are noticeably quieter than the stock tubes. I had extra noise in one channel, as others have reported with the stock tubes, and that is gone. This morning the new tubes started to blossom a bit more, I am happy to be working from home today so I can exercise them.


----------



## dtm300

debjitg said:


> Anybody knows if the preamp has any break in time ?







us blues said:


> It is hard to differentiate the break in of the unit from that of the tubes.



IMO - Our only way to really know is to have that 2nd Freya sitting there in a box. If using tubes, swap into new unit and see how it sounds compared to your used one. JFET mode would be the same used vs new. 

Tube changes with the Freya is following what I have experienced with other Tube Pre's so far and noted above - give them at least 50 hours to make your decisions.

I am now running RCA GTB in voltage positions and the 6H8C in the follower positions. Nice combo so far once the 6H8C got some time on them.

Going to swap back in the tube Pre I was using this weekend to see how it compares.

Fun times.....


----------



## bigro

dtm300 said:


> IMO - Our only way to really know is to have that 2nd Freya sitting there in a box. If using tubes, swap into new unit and see how it sounds compared to your used one. JFET mode would be the same used vs new.
> 
> Tube changes with the Freya is following what I have experienced with other Tube Pre's so far and noted above - give them at least 50 hours to make your decisions.
> 
> ...


 

 I did this for a while but with RCA 6SN7GT's I got Curious and swapped out the 6H8C's that where int he Follower position with GE 6SN7GTB's and I liked it way better. sound stage opened up and imaging got better immediately. I have about 20 hours on these so far so we will see as I break them in more. the Stock tubes are OK but I don't think they will be finding their way back into the freya.


----------



## Dwilli

Schiit shipped my Freya today. I"m already looking for 6sn7 tubes to try. I have a bunch of very nice 12au7's wonder how these might work in the Freya with an adapter? Any thoughts?
  
 I don't have any data on the tube section of the Freya so not real sure they will interchange.
  
 Damn, back to hunting tubes again. Tube prices are a joke. Makes want to sell off some of mine.


----------



## watchnerd

dwilli said:


> Schiit shipped my Freya today. I"m already looking for 6sn7 tubes to try. I have a bunch of very nice 12au7's wonder how these might work in the Freya with an adapter? Any thoughts?


 
  
 Thoughts?
  
 Bad idea.
  
 The 6SN7 is far more linear with small signals than the 12AU7.
  
 So even if it doesn't end in a catastrophe of smoke and flame (which it might), it's still likely to be more noisy and distorted than the 6SN7.
  
 Plus if you damage the amp, it's probably a warranty violation.


----------



## Dwilli

Ok thanks for your input. I've never had an amp that uses 6sn7s . Most of the tube stuff I have is home brew or ham radio.


----------



## dtm300

bigro said:


> I did this for a while but with RCA 6SN7GT's I got Curious and swapped out the 6H8C's that where int he Follower position with GE 6SN7GTB's and I liked it way better. sound stage opened up and imaging got better immediately. I have about 20 hours on these so far so we will see as I break them in more. the Stock tubes are OK but I don't think they will be finding their way back into the freya.



Cool.... I had my quad RCA's in first for three days, then swapped out the follower.

1st evening and next day the 6H8C in follower was brighter sounding (compared to RCA) but today they seem better. But like you I will pop the RCA's back in to see how it sounds but want to make sure I give stock enough hours. Got some dampers too I may try.

Fine sounding pre so far.


----------



## Blue Warper

Quote:


> dwilli said:
> 
> 
> > Schiit shipped my Freya today. I"m already looking for 6sn7 tubes to try. I have a bunch of very nice 12au7's wonder how these might work in the Freya with an adapter? Any thoughts?
> ...


 
  
 I'm not a Freya owner myself (hoping to get one in the future, though), so I just keep reading your thoughts and impressions.  I've read some of you inquired about 12AU7/12AX7 family of tubes.  I thought it might be useful for you tube-rollers to point out what's Mike/Baldr's opinion about it.
  
 You'll find it in Jason's thread:
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/701900/schiit-happened-the-story-of-the-worlds-most-improbable-start-up/9405#post_12202705
  
 Happy listening!


----------



## belgiangenius

blue warper said:


> Quote:
> 
> I'm not a Freya owner myself (hoping to get one in the future, though), so I just keep reading your thoughts and impressions.  I've read some of you inquired about 12AU7/12AX7 family of tubes.  I thought it might be useful for you tube-rollers to point out what's Mike/Baldr's opinion about it.
> 
> ...


 

 Yes, but Mike is referring to the high gain 12AX7.  A preamp would do fine with 12AU7/12AU7 or 12AT7/12AU7, which would undoubtedly be better than the 12AX7.


----------



## belgiangenius

mefaudio said:


> To answer that I'll give a rundown of what I've listened to and how they sound on Freya. First of all, to my ears matched quads sound better than using the stock tubes for output and swapping out the input. With that said there are several tubes that I only have two of, so I have no choice.
> 
> 1. RCA NOS 5692 red base matched pair (stock tubes for output buffer) are the best I've heard so far. Amazing detail and fantastic bass. Really amazing!
> 2. CBS NOS 5692 matched pair (I'm pretty sure these are also RCA red base because they sound almost identical and look identical). Probably 98% of the RCA.
> ...


 
  
 OK.
  
 I'm currently using Sylvania VT-231 in the buffer stage.  Wonder, transparent tubes, but a little base shy, so they got put in the buffer position pretty quickly.
  
 I got some RCA VT-231 grey glass this week, as well as some 5692 CBS.  Both tubes are excellent.  The RCA seems a bit more neutral, while the 5692s seem to blow up the vocals and sound stage a bit.  I like the 5692s very much - huge sound stage and absolutely visceral bass.
  
 What still gives me pause is that you said that a matched quad of Tung-Sol new production sounds 90% of the CBS?  Really?  Do you still stand by this?  If this is true, I may be ordering a case of them.


----------



## Blue Warper

belgiangenius said:


> Yes, but Mike is referring to the high gain 12AX7.  A preamp would do fine with 12AU7/12AU7 or 12AT7/12AU7, which would undoubtedly be better than the 12AX7.


 

 Fine, got it! Thanks for the clarification!


----------



## RoundRound

7N7 anyone??


----------



## lukeap69

hornytoad said:


> I have some noise coming only from the left speaker in tube mode on the Freya . I'm using all balanced cables . It's weird . It comes and goes . If I lift the Freya and move it around a little i can make it go away . Maybe power cables to close to one another ?
> This is not ground loop .
> Any suggestions ?
> Sometimes when I start the Freya up and it's ready I can hear the noise and then sometimes when I start it up the noise is not there .




Check if there is a cellphone or smartwatch near your rig. It happened once to me when I moved my tube amp (not Freya) on another location and it made me almost mad finding out the issue I did not have before.


----------



## MefAudio

belgiangenius said:


> OK.
> 
> I'm currently using Sylvania VT-231 in the buffer stage.  Wonder, transparent tubes, but a little base shy, so they got put in the buffer position pretty quickly.
> 
> ...


 
  
 So to make sure, I put the CBS pair in the input buffers (with the new production Tung Sol in the output buffer, it makes it a cleaner comparison rather than using the stock tubes for the output as the CBS sounded worse with the stock tubes in the output buffers). I also have my cousin with me for a second set of ears. The CBS have slightly heavier bass, noticeably better but by a small margin. I can't tell much of a difference with clarity- the Tung Sol clarity really sticks out in general and the CBS is expected to and it does. Highs are pretty frikin close. I can't tell a difference. My cousin can also tell a difference in the low frequency and the volume- I think the low frequency difference is giving a perception of a different volume level but we are talking maybe the equivalent of 2 clicks on Freya.
  
 In my system and to my ears, if the Tung Sols are not 90%, they are no lower than 85% of the CBS tubes (and to me I still think 90%). They sound really good to me. 
  
 I actually ordered a second matched quad and a matched pair to use with my exotic pairs. In a couple months I might be ordering a couple more matched quads, actually a matched set of 8. You might want to order a matched quad (I think I paid $90, so not too bad) and see what you think and go from there but for me, yeah a case is in my future for sure 
  
 My disclaimer is that the 5692s only have about 10 hours on them, the Tung Sols have about 30 hours on them. I did play them side by side with 0 hours on both sets and I came to the same conclusion. Your mileage may vary... etc.


----------



## Baldr

I need to clarify that I am not a fan of 12A(any)7 tubes.  The 12AU has bad curves, and although I have never used it the 12AT also suffers from curves far worse than the 6SN7/5692.  The main application for 12AT7 tubes is audio circuits in shortwave transmitters and receivers where audio non-linearity and punch help intelligibility over weak, noisy, signals.  For line level (not phono) tubes, the 6SN7 family just rules.  6DJ8 and 5670 are quieter, but this is useful for phono apps.


----------



## theveterans

We need a 5692 reissue with the same materials and construction as the NOS ones. Not the new Sylvania style but the REAL 5692s, triple mica, support rods, chrome dome with 2 getters, red/brown base only. 

Burning through these awesome NOS tubes costs too much for my musical enjoyment, especially in this generation.


----------



## US Blues

theveterans said:


> We need a 5692 reissue with the same materials and construction as the NOS ones. Not the new Sylvania style but the REAL 5692s, triple mica, support rods, chrome dome with 2 getters, red/brown base only.
> 
> Burning through these awesome NOS tubes costs too much for my musical enjoyment, especially in this generation.


 

 The new production Tung Sols have a brown base.


----------



## theveterans

us blues said:


> The new production Tung Sols have a brown base.


 
  
 But everything else is different. I'm talking about a 5692 clone with all of the strings attached (same mica material, heater and plates, rods, getters, glass, base, etc) and the construction and attention to detail are of NOS levels.


----------



## US Blues

theveterans said:


> us blues said:
> 
> 
> > The new production Tung Sols have a brown base.
> ...


 

 I know, that "winking face' was intended to convey that I was being playful/sarcastic.


----------



## Baldr

us blues said:


> The new production Tung Sols have a brown base.


 

 Could someone please post a link on these new production Tung Sols?  My endorsement is of the old production, made in US ones.  None of those had a brown base.


----------



## US Blues

baldr said:


> us blues said:
> 
> 
> > The new production Tung Sols have a brown base.
> ...


 

 Here you go:http://www.thetubestore.com/Tubes/6SN7-Tube-Types/Tung-Sol-6SN7GTB


----------



## watchnerd

baldr said:


> Could someone please post a link on these new production Tung Sols?  My endorsement is of the old production, made in US ones.  None of those had a brown base.


 
  
  
 From New Sensor, the same factory that makes the 'new issue' Sovtek and Electro-Harmonix tubes.
  
 http://www.thetubestore.com/Tubes/6SN7-Tube-Types/Tung-Sol-6SN7GTB
  
 I don't know how different they really are from the EH and Sovtek branded tubes from the same factory.


----------



## belgiangenius

mefaudio said:


> So to make sure, I put the CBS pair in the input buffers (with the new production Tung Sol in the output buffer, it makes it a cleaner comparison rather than using the stock tubes for the output as the CBS sounded worse with the stock tubes in the output buffers). I also have my cousin with me for a second set of ears. The CBS have slightly heavier bass, noticeably better but by a small margin. I can't tell much of a difference with clarity- the Tung Sol clarity really sticks out in general and the CBS is expected to and it does. Highs are pretty frikin close. I can't tell a difference. My cousin can also tell a difference in the low frequency and the volume- I think the low frequency difference is giving a perception of a different volume level but we are talking maybe the equivalent of 2 clicks on Freya.
> 
> In my system and to my ears, if the Tung Sols are not 90%, they are no lower than 85% of the CBS tubes (and to me I still think 90%). They sound really good to me.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks, Mef.  I may try the new Tungsols soon.  A matched quad of them is less than a matched pair of everything else I've purchased!


----------



## jseymour

baldr said:


> Could someone please post a link on these new production Tung Sols?  My endorsement is of the old production, made in US ones.  None of those had a brown base.


 
 Better price and you can get them matched:
 https://www.tubedepot.com/products/tung-sol-6sn7gt-new-production-preamp-vacuum-tube


----------



## Oklahoma

Can anyone tell me the distance from the left side of the case to the first tube? I will be picking up Freya next week and am looking at sizes to see if I need to completely redo my stack or if it will fit in without much rearrangement. Is there enough room to stack a jotenheim on the left side without interfering with the tubes?


----------



## MefAudio

belgiangenius said:


> Thanks, Mef.  I may try the new Tungsols soon.  A matched quad of them is less than a matched pair of everything else I've purchased!




Agreed- great value for sure and the risk factor is pretty low. Please let us know your impressions as well when you can, would love to compare.


----------



## bigro

oklahoma said:


> Can anyone tell me the distance from the left side of the case to the first tube? I will be picking up Freya next week and am looking at sizes to see if I need to completely redo my stack or if it will fit in without much rearrangement. Is there enough room to stack a jotenheim on the left side without interfering with the tubes?


 
 It is just Shy of 9 Inches, Tube to edge. you do not want it pushing on the tube so I would say this is will not work. I


----------



## US Blues

bigro said:


> oklahoma said:
> 
> 
> > Can anyone tell me the distance from the left side of the case to the first tube? I will be picking up Freya next week and am looking at sizes to see if I need to completely redo my stack or if it will fit in without much rearrangement. Is there enough room to stack a jotenheim on the left side without interfering with the tubes?
> ...


 

 The Freya chassis also gets fairly warm, which might be a good reason not to stack another piece of gear on top of the left side.


----------



## Oklahoma

us blues said:


> The Freya chassis also gets fairly warm, which might be a good reason not to stack another piece of gear on top of the left side.




Ok cool. So shelf it is, or new arrangement. Thanks.


----------



## debjitg

how are the new Tung Sol sounding for rest of the folks ? I got a new quad last friday and its been about 50hrs so far but I am finding it to be edgy, forward and aggressive sounding. Maybe I need to put in more hrs but so far I am not that impressed. The Jfet buffer sounds more natural than the Tung Sol tube gain.


----------



## US Blues

debjitg said:


> how are the new Tung Sol sounding for rest of the folks ? I got a new quad last friday and its been about 50hrs so far but I am finding it to be edgy, forward and aggressive sounding. Maybe I need to put in more hrs but so far I am not that impressed. The Jfet buffer sounds more natural than the Tung Sol tube gain.


 

 What do you have in the rest of your system?
  
 I've been running the Tung Sols for a week now and they are yummy to my ear. They have gone through changes over the week, if you can wait a bit you may find things will shift.


----------



## debjitg

us blues said:


> What do you have in the rest of your system?
> 
> I've been running the Tung Sols for a week now and they are yummy to my ear. They have gone through changes over the week, if you can wait a bit you may find things will shift.


 
  
 Maybe I should give more time on the Tung Sols. The guy from where I bought (cryoset) said depending on the design, it may take 50-100hrs.


----------



## belgiangenius

mefaudio said:


> So to make sure, I put the CBS pair in the input buffers (with the new production Tung Sol in the output buffer, it makes it a cleaner comparison rather than using the stock tubes for the output as the CBS sounded worse with the stock tubes in the output buffers). I also have my cousin with me for a second set of ears. The CBS have slightly heavier bass, noticeably better but by a small margin. I can't tell much of a difference with clarity- the Tung Sol clarity really sticks out in general and the CBS is expected to and it does. Highs are pretty frikin close. I can't tell a difference. My cousin can also tell a difference in the low frequency and the volume- I think the low frequency difference is giving a perception of a different volume level but we are talking maybe the equivalent of 2 clicks on Freya.
> 
> In my system and to my ears, if the Tung Sols are not 90%, they are no lower than 85% of the CBS tubes (and to me I still think 90%). They sound really good to me.
> 
> ...


 
  
 More listening time with my tubes.
  
 No question the CBS 5692 sounds fantastic.
  
 BUT, I dropped in the RCA VT-231 grey glass for a few hours today and was grinning ear to ear.  That awesome midrange for voices and piano that I have been hunting for is there.  The bass is deep, too.  Soundstage is massive.
  
 Not the most accurate and detailed tube - but everything else in my system is purely transparent - so this tube is pure bliss.


----------



## theveterans

belgiangenius said:


> More listening time with my tubes.
> 
> No question the CBS 5692 sounds fantastic.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Are you stating that the RCA gray glass VT231 is better than the 5692s? The 1960's RCA GTB that I have as well as the triangular plate Sylvania side getter GTBs are less open and less focused than the 5692s. Nothing beats the 5692 red or brown base in my ears yet, but the 5692s are too expensive to be daily drivers.


----------



## MefAudio

debjitg said:


> how are the new Tung Sol sounding for rest of the folks ? I got a new quad last friday and its been about 50hrs so far but I am finding it to be edgy, forward and aggressive sounding. Maybe I need to put in more hrs but so far I am not that impressed. The Jfet buffer sounds more natural than the Tung Sol tube gain.




That is interesting. I've had them off and on all weekend and mine have less than 50 hrs on them but they sound very good. Not edgy but highly detailed in my system with Yggy and my legacys. My only issue with them (and honestly it's not that bad) is that the bass is shy of the 5692s but not by a huge margin. To be honest you might want to look away from the tubes for an explanation..?? At least to me on my system I've been very pleased with them.


----------



## MefAudio

belgiangenius said:


> More listening time with my tubes.
> 
> No question the CBS 5692 sounds fantastic.
> 
> ...




Very good to know about the grey glass, I was so close to dropping my matched quad in this weekend but decided against it at the last minute- might have been a bad decision lol. That makes me excited to hear them as my favorite music has piano and acoustic guitar as the main instruments. 

I spent some more time with the CBS tubes as well, I really like them very much- I wish I had a quad but they do sound great with the Tung Sols in the output buffers. I never use the stock tubes anymore for the output buffers. When I'm trying to show off to friends, I put the CBS in output and RCA red base in input- Fantastic sound!!! As expected of course lol. Like you I think the CBS was a great buy for me, I'm happy to have them!


----------



## lukeap69

How much are the Hytron 5692 going currently? I just scored a quad for less than 60USD + shipping. (Note : I don't have thr Freya yet but will get one in the near future so I started hunting few tubes. )


----------



## debjitg

mefaudio said:


> That is interesting. I've had them off and on all weekend and mine have less than 50 hrs on them but they sound very good. Not edgy but highly detailed in my system with Yggy and my legacys. My only issue with them (and honestly it's not that bad) is that the bass is shy of the 5692s but not by a huge margin. To be honest you might want to look away from the tubes for an explanation..?? At least to me on my system I've been very pleased with them.


 

 Hum...yeah, that is why I am a bit surprised to see my results. The Jfet buffer mode sounds fine and doesn't have the edginess. I bought the quad cryo treated from cryoset - not sure if that makes things a bit different. I am also using a nc500 based Amp which is very revealing, so every small little things gets amplified - good or bad


----------



## debjitg

When I turn the volume all the way down with the tube gain mode, I can still hear faint music coming from the speakers (94db) and I can hear it from 5ft distance. Can somebody confirm this is or not the case with their Freya ?


----------



## ggones

Same here when using tube mode with a PC (USB) to Gumby (BAL) to Freya (BAL) to Genelec monitors.  If my pc volume is at 60%, I can hear most audio stuff even when muted.  I've been turning my pc volume down to about 20%.  At 20%, I can't hear it when muted, but I can still hear it faintly when turned all the way down in tube mode.


----------



## cskippy

Easy solution is just to switch modes I guess.  I know the tube mode has a lot of gain.


----------



## mervinb

I received my Freya last weekend, 2 days ahead of the Fedex scheduled delivery date, so I've spent maybe 6-8 hrs with it.
  
 Caveat: I've been a solid state guy all my audiophile life, and I've designed / built some (basic) gear ranging from amps to buffers and amps. My friends consistently remark that my gear / systems are 'tubey', and I have nothing against tubes, except that for diy I prefer playing with the lower voltages in solid state designs.
  
 First impressions of the Freya:
  
 Boy, it's good!! For $699 it's amazing. Some years back I built an 80+ step remote controlled preamp with buffer. I could not come close to the Freya's spec without spending that amount, and the buffer would have to be op-amp based, and the metal work a lot shoddier.
  
 - As a passive volume control the finer steps for volume control are just what I like. Motorised volume controls are much too unpredictable, and 64 steps would be too coarse for my tastes.
  
 - I'll assume passive = neutral. By that accout, the Jfet active buffer sounds very neutral too, although it sounds deeper, fuller and more extended.
  
 - The tube stage (using stock Schiit tubes) sounds very nice. I did not notice the huge gain in soundstage that others have mentioned, although the mids are very nice - smooth, clear. My speakers are essentially flat to 25Hz and have good RAAL ribbon tweeters, and using the tube stage I felt a distinct loss of the deepest bass, and a slight loss of sparkle. Because of this and my listening preferences (mostly classical), I decided to remove the tubes and just use active buffering for now,
  
 - Leaving the unit powered up, I was quite taken aback by the change in sound after ~24hrs. the sound of the Freya smoothened a *lot*. I'm used to some change as a unit runs in, but this was pretty noticeable, and my wife noticed it too. It's become more tube-like! My previous amp was an integrated (Krell Vanguard), which I reckon was quite neutral. Currently the Freya is connected to a small Redgum Mosfet integrated with volume set at max. The Redgum uses a passive volume control and sounded quite close to the Krell - maybe slightly deeper, a little less powerful. With Freya -> Redgum the pair sounds rather different - warmer, larger sounding, even deeper. Source is a Gumby. It seems like this combo benefits from an active buffer feeding the amp, and the Freya adds body & polish to the setup.
  
 I'll be especially interested to hear from users who listen with the Jfet buffer stage, and those who give the Jfet buffer more time to run in. I would not be surprised to hear that initial impressions change quite a bit, given enough time for the unit to burn in.


----------



## bigro

mervinb said:


> I received my Freya last weekend, 2 days ahead of the Fedex scheduled delivery date, so I've spent maybe 6-8 hrs with it.
> 
> Caveat: I've been a solid state guy all my audiophile life, and I've designed / built some (basic) gear ranging from amps to buffers and amps. My friends consistently remark that my gear / systems are 'tubey', and I have nothing against tubes, except that for diy I prefer playing with the lower voltages in solid state designs.
> 
> ...


 
 Maybe Sticking them in the freezer actually did change the way they sound. Maybe you can get a Pair that has not been frozen and compare? I think you are the only one who has a cryo set and also the only one who do not seem happy with the new prod tungsol,s at least at this point.


----------



## KoshNaranek

bigro said:


> Maybe Sticking them in the freezer actually did change the way they sound. Maybe you can get a Pair that has not been frozen and compare? I think you are the only one who has a cryo set and also the only one who do not seem happy with the new prod tungsol,s at least at this point.




I think the only thing that cryo treatment for tubes will achieve is to break/weaken the welds in the tube internals. I would say that those tubes failed provocative testing.


----------



## snip3r77

How is jfet sq vs tube ?


----------



## belgiangenius

theveterans said:


> Are you stating that the RCA gray glass VT231 is better than the 5692s? The 1960's RCA GTB that I have as well as the triangular plate Sylvania side getter GTBs are less open and less focused than the 5692s. Nothing beats the 5692 red or brown base in my ears yet, but the 5692s are too expensive to be daily drivers.


 

 "Better" is a very subjective term.
  
 I will spend more time comparing before I even decide which one I would characterize as "better" for my system and taste.


----------



## belgiangenius

Could someone knowledgeable give us a short description of how tubes are matched and what sufficient matching is?
  
 I'm talking to a guy saying two tubes tested excellent on a calibrated Hickok TV-10 with 1650/1650 being nominal one tested at 2750/2750 mhms and the other at 2750/2700 mhms. Based on those numbers, he says they're perfectly matched.  Comments?


----------



## firedog

> When I turn the volume all the way down with the tube gain mode, I can still hear faint music coming from the speakers (94db) and I can hear it from 5ft distance. Can somebody confirm this is or not the case with their Freya ?


 
  
 Same here. I hear it also in JFET mode. Not a biggy, apparently that's the way the preamp is built; I don't hear it with other input devices, just the Freya.


----------



## firedog

Newbie with tubes. Tube question:
  
 I put in a matched pair of  new Tung Sols for the gain stage. Seems to work fine, and I've got equal volume out of both channels. However, one tube distinctly glows, the other doesn't seem to have a visible glow. Is this normal with tubes, some glow much more than others, even of the same type? Obviously the tube works, I was just wondering if lack of glow means anything....


----------



## theveterans

^ heater on the other side that doesn't glow that much will fail sooner than the one glowing orange hot


----------



## RoundRound

Hello People,
 I'm waiting for my Freya to arrive (hopefully later this week), I wonder if anyone used it in a 2.1 configuration with a sub fed from the SE outputs of the Freya (and the speakers and power amp from the balanced? Does it work well?


----------



## firedog

firedog said:


> Newbie with tubes. Tube question:
> 
> I put in a matched pair of  new Tung Sols for the gain stage. Seems to work fine, and I've got equal volume out of both channels. However, one tube distinctly glows, the other doesn't seem to have a visible glow. Is this normal with tubes, some glow much more than others, even of the same type? Obviously the tube works, I was just wondering if lack of glow means anything....


 
  After the one tube has been on a while, I see a very small glow (you really have to look for it) from the one tube that seemed not to glow. Talked to the vendor (Watford Valves). and was told that if the tube is working, it is fine. It was tested as a match in a pair with my other Tung Sol. Vendor says the apparent lack of glow just means that during the hand made production, this tube was cut so that the wire/filament is shorter than average. Acc'd to him, not a performance issue, but just makes the visible glow small and difficult to see, as less wire is exposed. 
  
  
 In terms of sound, my initial impression is this: overall doesn't change the type of sound I'm hearing with the passive and JFET modes: clean and clear, with wide sound stage, good detail presentation. 
  
 The tube output has a LOT more gain, and I'd say bass is a little bit less extended and taut, and the overall sound is a bit rounder/softer/less clean and precise  than in the other two modes. But not by a lot. Percussion instruments and cymbals seem a bit more prominent in tube mode. I can certainly hear a difference if I A/B modes, but I'm not sure I'd instantly know which mode was playing if I walked into the room with the playback already going. They aren't THAT different, at least in my setup.
  
 I did think mp3s and old (50's-60's) recordings sounded better through tube mode, but maybe that's expectation bias of some kind playing games in my head.  I'm pretty sure long term my go to mode will be JFET.


----------



## mervinb

firedog said:


> In terms of sound, my initial impression is this: overall doesn't change the type of sound I'm hearing with the passive and JFET modes: clean and clear, with wide sound stage, good detail presentation.
> 
> The tube output has a LOT more gain, and I'd say bass is a little bit less extended and taut, and the overall sound is a bit rounder/softer/less clean and precise  than in the other two modes. But not by a lot. Percussion instruments and cymbals seem a bit more prominent in tube mode. I can certainly hear a difference if I A/B modes, but I'm not sure I'd instantly know which mode was playing if I walked into the room with the playback already going. They aren't THAT different, at least in my setup.
> 
> I did think mp3s and old (50's-60's) recordings sounded better through tube mode, but maybe that's expectation bias of some kind playing games in my head.  I'm pretty sure long term my go to mode will be JFET.



This is consistent with my impression after 5 days with my Freya. Your description of the difference in bass is almost precisely what I perceive. As my speakers go very deep, I do notice the relative lack of low bass when using the tube section, so it looks like I'll be playing with Freya with Jfet buffer. The tubes have been removed so that I have the option of keeping the unit powered up all the time.


----------



## dtm300

ggones said:


> Same here when using tube mode with a PC (USB) to Gumby (BAL) to Freya (BAL) to Genelec monitors.  If my pc volume is at 60%, I can hear most audio stuff even when muted.  I've been turning my pc volume down to about 20%.  At 20%, I can't hear it when muted, but I can still hear it faintly when turned all the way down in tube mode.


 
 Maybe when volume is turned all the way down, or pre is turned on, it is at the first setting or .6xxx dB, where muted is 0 dB?  
  
 Or to use vol knob after using remote, the remote volume has to be turned all the way down, then the vol knob will engage.  Maybe last position helps identify this???
  
 Just a thought.  
  
 For me in tube mode, I can barely hear it with my ear right up to panel.


----------



## dwilli852

Fed ex delivered my Freya today. So first impressions are it's ok. With the stock tubes the highs and upper midrange seem rolled off. All the little details that make the Yggdrasil so great seem to get lost. 

I replaced the Freya with the old preamp and everything returned. I don't know maybe the tubes or just needs some burn in time. I've got some NOS tubes on the way hope that helps. 

Right now I'm ready to box it up and return it.

Maybe my expections were too high after the Yggdrasil. It's the best 2300 bucks I've spent on audio equipment.


----------



## hornytoad

Stock tubes are very weak imo .


----------



## theveterans

dwilli852 said:


> Fed ex delivered my Freya today. So first impressions are it's ok. With the stock tubes the highs and upper midrange seem rolled off. All the little details that make the Yggdrasil so great seem to get lost.
> 
> I replaced the Freya with the old preamp and everything returned. I don't know maybe the tubes or just needs some burn in time. I've got some NOS tubes on the way hope that helps.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Put the quad RCA 5692s and Freya opens up like how it should sound!


----------



## bigro

dwilli852 said:


> Fed ex delivered my Freya today. So first impressions are it's ok. With the stock tubes the highs and upper midrange seem rolled off. All the little details that make the Yggdrasil so great seem to get lost.
> 
> I replaced the Freya with the old preamp and everything returned. I don't know maybe the tubes or just needs some burn in time. I've got some NOS tubes on the way hope that helps.
> 
> ...


 
 Any tube will need quite a few hours of burn in to settle in, I gave the stock ones a good 20 hours but like many said they are ok but not the best. You could go for the prized quad. Many seem to like the new tung sols. I have decided at this point to avoid the high dollar tubes, RIght now I have a Pair of  RCA 6SN7GT on the Input Side which is sounds very balanced without excessive highs and has good bass with a really smooth mid end, I really like the signature of this tube. and pair '54 GE 6SNGTB Coinbase on the output side. Less than $75 for all four tubes. The GE's seemed a little dull on the the input side and the high were a a little much. At first I left the stock tubes on the output side but did not like it, The Stock tubes get you started but change them all,  WIth my Bimby and the freya as it stands now with about close to 40 hours on the tubes is as enjoyable as my analog rig with a lower noise floor and not pops, which all told his not a high dollar setup but not crap either. Swap those tubes out and give the new ones some time to burn in. I did not really start to enjoy my current tube config until about the 25 hour mark. Also try the freys out for a few hours in the Jfet Buffer mode that should give you a good idea of what it is capable of why you wait for your tubes, I think someone  said that the Jfet stage needed a few hours before it settled in as well. I have been running only tubes at this point


----------



## ggones

I'm getting an intermittent ringing or static noise coming with new tung sol quads. The tung sols are a lot better than stock tho. I've tried swapping the tubes in every possible combination with slightly different results. The ringing noise doesn't get louder so its not too noticeable if the music is cranked up. Is this normal for tube preamps? Should I just accept a little noise and be happy? Maybe I've been unlucky with the tube lottery. I don't want to keep throwing money at it and am probably not interested in spending much more than 25 bucks per tube. I think my next step is to turn down the input sensitivity on the Genelecs. Every mode sounds really good to me, just have a slightly annoying issue with tubes.


----------



## debjitg

^ I get that too sometimes. In my case, it happens when the preamp is running for while. If I turn it off and then turn it back, it goes away and comes back again after sometime. I am not sure if its the tube or something to do with the preamp.


----------



## bigro

Hmmm I have not heard any ringing on my Freya it is dead silient even after being on for hours. I use a Vali2 at work and have a Valhalla 2. The only "ringer I had was the orginal vali when I bumped the table. Ringing is generally caused by Microphonics in the tubes. Does it ring with the stock tubes too? If not use 2 of the stock tubes in the freya and use two of the tung sols and swap them in and out so maybe you can isolate the issue. Also Make sure whatever you have the freya on is stable and does not vibrate when people walk by , when the cat sneezes or when the dog farts.


----------



## dtm300

dwilli852 said:


> Fed ex delivered my Freya today. So first impressions are it's ok. With the stock tubes the highs and upper midrange seem rolled off. All the little details that make the Yggdrasil so great seem to get lost.
> 
> I replaced the Freya with the old preamp and everything returned. I don't know maybe the tubes or just needs some burn in time. I've got some NOS tubes on the way hope that helps.
> 
> ...


 
 What pre do you have now for the comparison to Freya?


----------



## hornytoad

ggones said:


> I'm getting an intermittent ringing or static noise coming with new tung sol quads. The tung sols are a lot better than stock tho. I've tried swapping the tubes in every possible combination with slightly different results. The ringing noise doesn't get louder so its not too noticeable if the music is cranked up. Is this normal for tube preamps? Should I just accept a little noise and be happy? Maybe I've been unlucky with the tube lottery. I don't want to keep throwing money at it and am probably not interested in spending much more than 25 bucks per tube. I think my next step is to turn down the input sensitivity on the Genelecs. Every mode sounds really good to me, just have a slightly annoying issue with tubes.



I had some of this with the Tung Sols . Put stock tubes back in , then after a few minutes put Tung Sols back in and no ringing static . 
I have no idea how I did it but tubes can be finicky . 
Make sure no cell phones , lights with dimmers, charging stations are around the preamp .


----------



## Pandahead

dwilli852 said:


> Fed ex delivered my Freya today. So first impressions are it's ok. With the stock tubes the highs and upper midrange seem rolled off. All the little details that make the Yggdrasil so great seem to get lost.
> 
> I replaced the Freya with the old preamp and everything returned. I don't know maybe the tubes or just needs some burn in time. I've got some NOS tubes on the way hope that helps.
> 
> ...


 
  
  


theveterans said:


> Put the quad RCA 5692s and Freya opens up like how it should sound!


 

 ​I have to concur with the 5692s. In order to have a touchstone I ordered a quad of the Tung Sols. After 30 hours I doubt seriously that they will suddenly blossom into the league of the 5692's. I think that Schiit should offer the Tung Sols as an option with Freya. Like no tubes for $650 or with a matched quad of Tung Sols $750. They are nice tubes and quiet and readily available and that would help new owners start with at least quiet consistent good sounding tubes. The stock ones don't seem to fare too well so far. 
  
 The JFET buffer stage is great. Sound stage is bigger and deeper than passive, at least for me. The 5692's improve the JFET buffer in dynamics, sound stage width and depth, and most revealing to me the focus of the instruments is even more resolved and tonalities are just there. The Tung Sols improve the sound stage width don't add as much dynamics, add sparkle but not focus and detail. That's just me. Don't sell the farm to buy tubes if don't really want to try. That was the whole idea of the product. There is the excellent JFET buffer. 
  
 There are some really awesome sounding tubes I have for my head phone amps so I bought Freya with the thought of finding the right tubes for me in my 2 channel gear. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Personally my Krell 280P pre was in the minor leagues even when compared to JFET, or any other pieces of Schiit I've tried as a pre. Freya with 5692s is by far the best so far.


----------



## MefAudio

dwilli852 said:


> Fed ex delivered my Freya today. So first impressions are it's ok. With the stock tubes the highs and upper midrange seem rolled off. All the little details that make the Yggdrasil so great seem to get lost.
> 
> I replaced the Freya with the old preamp and everything returned. I don't know maybe the tubes or just needs some burn in time. I've got some NOS tubes on the way hope that helps.
> 
> ...


 
 I agree with you about Yggy- and I even questioned that when I first got it but it was because the rest of my gear was not up to par.
  
 If you have 5692 (4 of them) give them a shot. I have two RCA red bases (in the inputs) and two CBS 5692 (in the outputs) all matched, all NOS. Amazing performance, crazy good! If that doesn't do it then maybe return it because I don't think it will get better than that. For me, I'm very satisfied with it but it doesn't mean it is perfect for everyone.


----------



## theveterans

2 matched pairs of NOS RCA 5692s already cost 2/3 of Freyas. We desperately need a reissue of the 5692s with the same material, quality and construction and of course the red/brown base only! It has to be a 100% clone of the NOS and no substitute or equivalent materials for the new reissue tubes are allowed, but unfortunately that's a pipe dream in this generation and the future.


----------



## watchnerd

dwilli852 said:


> Fed ex delivered my Freya today. So first impressions are it's ok. With the stock tubes the highs and upper midrange seem rolled off. All the little details that make the Yggdrasil so great seem to get lost.
> 
> I replaced the Freya with the old preamp and everything returned. I don't know maybe the tubes or just needs some burn in time. I've got some NOS tubes on the way hope that helps.
> 
> ...


 
  
 And how about in passive or JFET mode?


----------



## Pandahead

roundround said:


> Hello People,
> I'm waiting for my Freya to arrive (hopefully later this week), I wonder if anyone used it in a 2.1 configuration with a sub fed from the SE outputs of the Freya (and the speakers and power amp from the balanced? Does it work well?


 

 ​Yes it is fine. That is how mine is. If your set up is all single ended now and you go balanced with Freya to your amp(s) which is what you are implying you will be doing, all you will have to do is raise the output level of your sub because balanced has more output to your amp(s) than single ended. Freya has two sets of single ended out BTW in addition to balanced out. Personally, if you have a Yggy or Gumby multibit balanced is the way to go. I meant to answer this right away but I am getting old and forgetful.


----------



## MefAudio

theveterans said:


> 2 matched pairs of NOS RCA 5692s already cost 2/3 of Freyas. We desperately need a reissue of the 5692s with the same material, quality and construction and of course the red/brown base only! It has to be a 100% clone of the NOS and no substitute or equivalent materials for the new reissue tubes are allowed, but unfortunately that's a pipe dream in this generation and the future.




I know it. I see more red base tubes online that I want but I just don't want to spend the money... the new Tung Sols are as close as I was able to get but they aren't a perfect match, but good enough especially for the price.


----------



## mhamel

So... I picked up a quad of PSVane UK-6SN7 to try out....
  
 The bases are much wider than standard, and do not fit in the holes cut out in the top of the Freya... I am going to have to order some socket savers and see if they give enough clearance, but from the loots of it, I doubt they will.


----------



## belgiangenius

mhamel said:


> So... I picked up a quad of PSVane UK-6SN7 to try out....
> 
> The bases are much wider than standard, and do not fit in the holes cut out in the top of the Freya... I am going to have to order some socket savers and see if they give enough clearance, but from the loots of it, I doubt they will.


 
  
 Would love to hear impressions of PSVANE.  You only find two people online:  (1) those who claim they beat everything, and (2) those who claim they absolutely suck.
  
 I tried some PSVANE 12AU7/AT7 in a DAC once.  They sucked.  HARD.
  
 And they were expensive too.  I sold them fast.


----------



## watchnerd

mhamel said:


> So... I picked up a quad of PSVane UK-6SN7 to try out....
> 
> The bases are much wider than standard, and do not fit in the holes cut out in the top of the Freya... I am going to have to order some socket savers and see if they give enough clearance, but from the loots of it, I doubt they will.


 
  
 Sorry you took one for the team!
  
 Glad to know they don't fit, I'll be avoiding them, in the case.


----------



## mhamel

belgiangenius said:


> Would love to hear impressions of PSVANE.  You only find two people online:  (1) those who claim they beat everything, and (2) those who claim they absolutely suck.
> 
> I tried some PSVANE 12AU7/AT7 in a DAC once.  They sucked.  HARD.
> 
> And they were expensive too.  I sold them fast.


 
  
  
 I try to stay as open-minded as I can with regard to trying tubes - and generally find the answers are somewhere in between the extremes more often than not. I've found some great tubes along the way doing that - especially in the 6DJ8 and related tubes I've used in my Mjolnir 2, Lyr and BAT VK-5i. 6SN7s are a new adventure... just what my wallet needs. D'oh.  
  
 I ordered a set of socket savers from Tube Monger - I'll see if they have enough clearance and give these a run through if they do, otherwise I'll end up selling them. I've already marked them for identification of the matched pairs so I doubt I could return them if I wanted to.  I use dots with a sharpie paint pen on the bases to identify matched pairs - once too often getting distracted when swapping tubes and having to re-test things taught me that lesson, hah.


----------



## mhamel

watchnerd said:


> Sorry you took one for the team!
> 
> Glad to know they don't fit, I'll be avoiding them, in the case.


 
  
 It's all good - maybe they'll work with the socket savers, we'll see.  If not someone will get a good deal on them in the classifieds.
  
 I did also send Schiit an email - thought it might be helpful info to add to the manual or FAQ about tube rolling to save someone else the hassle of buying them by mistake.


----------



## RoundRound

Maybe we can add a sticky post to the first page of this thread with a list of tubes that don't work and any other useful info (that does work, hopefully).
  
 In other news, what's the consensus on how long the Freya takes to break in? Just got mine!


----------



## Baldr

belgiangenius said:


> Would love to hear impressions of PSVANE.  You only find two people online:  (1) those who claim they beat everything, and (2) those who claim they absolutely suck.
> 
> I tried some PSVANE 12AU7/AT7 in a DAC once.  They sucked.  HARD.
> 
> And they were expensive too.  I sold them fast.


 

 I know nothing of PSVANE, but the problem is that 12AU/AT7 tubes are FUBAR for high quality audio.  They are fine for communication receivers.  It is not merely that they sound like hemhorriodal ass, but they have stunningly bad linearity, no matter where you may bias them.  Oh, and did I mention?  They suck.  Save your $$$.


----------



## mhamel

baldr said:


> I know nothing of PSVANE, but the problem is that 12AU/AT7 tubes are FUBAR for high quality audio.  They are fine for communication receivers.  It is not merely that they sound like hemhorriodal ass, but they have stunningly bad linearity, no matter where you may bias them.  Oh, and did I mention?  They suck.  Save your $$$.


 
  
 I'm definitely sold on 6SN7 after spending some time with the Freya.
  
  
 As for PSVane, I was talking about trying out the PSVane UK-6SN7 version... price-wise they were reasonable enough to give them a shot. The bases on the tubes are quite a bit bigger than a standard 6SN7, though, so they don't clear the openings and I don't think a socket saver will raise them up enough to do it, either.


----------



## TonyNewman

mhamel said:


> .... they don't clear the openings and I don't think a socket saver will raise them up enough to do it, either.


 
  
 I have never had a problem stacking 2 socket savers to get the spacing I needed on the WA5. Can't see how the Freya would be any different.


----------



## founded

I do not have to worry about tube clearance on freya because with jfet buffer sounding so good we may never get around to the 20x gain provided by 6sn7. Jotunheim stacks perfectly over the tube openings. Maybe, if ever there is a sunny day offgrid, we will get those quad tongue-souls burning. Instruction booklet should include that the unit runs just fine with no tubes.


----------



## JohnnyCanuck

founded said:


> I do not have to worry about tube clearance on freya because with jfet buffer sounding so good we may never get around to the 20x gain provided by 6sn7. Jotunheim stacks perfectly over the tube openings. Maybe, if ever there is a sunny day offgrid, we will get those quad tongue-souls burning. Instruction booklet should include that the unit runs just fine with no tubes.


 
  
 Where do you get the 20x gain figure?  Schiit's site states the gain is 5x.  That's a big difference.


----------



## theveterans

johnnycanuck said:


> Where do you get the 20x gain figure?  Schiit's site states the gain is 5x.  That's a big difference.


 
  
 6SN7 specifications allow for 20x maximum gain.


----------



## belgiangenius

mhamel said:


> I'm definitely sold on 6SN7 after spending some time with the Freya.
> 
> 
> As for PSVane, I was talking about trying out the PSVane UK-6SN7 version... price-wise they were reasonable enough to give them a shot. The bases on the tubes are quite a bit bigger than a standard 6SN7, though, so they don't clear the openings and I don't think a socket saver will raise them up enough to do it, either.


 
  
 Well, they are made in China.  Following manufacturing/technical/quality/dimensional specifications is not exactly an apparent skill of designers over there.


----------



## belgiangenius

baldr said:


> I know nothing of PSVANE, but the problem is that 12AU/AT7 tubes are FUBAR for high quality audio.  They are fine for communication receivers.  It is not merely that they sound like hemhorriodal ass, but they have stunningly bad linearity, no matter where you may bias them.  Oh, and did I mention?  They suck.  Save your $$$.


 
  
 Mike, we're beginning to get the impression you're not that fond of 12AU7/AT7. 
  
 I have a Lampizator DAC that uses them.  I managed to find some that I thought sounded really good, mostly German Telefunken or Siemens tubes.  Given the way they sound, I can see that quite possibly they are not the most linear of tubes, though.  Certain parts of the audible spectrum do seem exaggerated over other parts.
  
 It all became moot when I got my Yggdrasil though, because the Yggy sounds better.


----------



## theveterans

belgiangenius said:


> Well, they are made in China.  Following manufacturing/technical/quality/dimensional specifications is not exactly an apparent skill of designers over there.


 
  
 Agree. I'd rather get these than that overpriced tube:


----------



## mhamel

theveterans said:


> Agree. I'd rather get these than that overpriced tube:


 
  
 Aren't those Sophias also made in China and around 2x the cost of the UK-6SN7?


----------



## founded

We did a bunch, several hundred pages, of reading up on tubes yesterday and I can't touch my touchstone on the question of 6sn7 gain. However, if you go to 6sn7 in Wikipedia:
  
 "6sn7 is a dual triode tube with an 8-pin octal base. It provided a medium gain (20). The 6sn7 is basically two 6J5 triodes in one envelope."
  
 Per how the 6sn7 is in this actual unit, the Schiit specs do list 5 (14db).
  
 However, Schiit specs are variable. The back of Freya lists 40 watt power consumption, but owners manual lists 35w. The way I run, power consumption is 7w. And I understand plate dissipation on 6sn7 is 5w.
  
 Freya volume knob is circa 3 o'clock for my typical listen. Happy camper.


----------



## rnros

On amplification factor for 6SN7, here's the spec sheet for a Sylvania 6SN7GTA/B:
http://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/137/6/6SN7GTA.pdf
 For amplification factor look on page 2 under "Characteristics and Typical Operation."
  
 You can find other brands, and all tube types, on this website:
http://frank.pocnet.net/sheets66.html
 This page link is for the page where 6SN7 are listed, go to top of page to select other tube series.
  
 Edit: If you need the Russian equivalent 6N8S spec:
http://www.russiantubes.com/prop.php?t=12&p=208
http://www.russiantubes.com/tubes.php?r=12


----------



## Chrispb1

Would appreciate any informed response.
My Freya is 2 days old. Very quiet but overly bright. Seems to be calming down with more hours. Have any users experienced the same and how long did it take to normalise?

My preferred listening at the moment is via buffered stage. The tube has some qualities, but I find it a bit agressive. Has any observed this? Does it calm down with use? Would a change of tubes remove this negative attribute and improve of buffered stage?

To put into system context: Bluesound Vault 2 - Mutec MC3 + - Yggdrasil- Freya - Levenson 433 - Genesis 5.3 connected with Achtung balanced solid silver IC and MIT speaker cables. Prior to Freya: Mcintosh MC2500 with which there is no over brightness/harshness but the Freya definitely has greater potential (i feel)


----------



## watchnerd

chrispb1 said:


> Would appreciate any informed response.
> My Freya is 2 days old. Very quiet but overly bright. Seems to be calming down with more hours. Have any users experienced the same and how long did it take to normalise?
> 
> My preferred listening at the moment is via buffered stage. The tube has some qualities, but I find it a bit agressive. Has any observed this? Does it calm down with use? Would a change of tubes remove this negative attribute and improve of buffered stage?
> ...


 
  
 I don't have and have never had any of the brightness you are experiencing.
  
 But then again I don't use silver IC cables because I always found them to be...bright.
  
 Maybe try some cheap generic XLRs.


----------



## RoundRound

I too got my Freya recently, (24 hours actually) and love it. 
  
 The sound is great but I have to admit other than the obvious volume difference with the Tube stage I struggle to hear any audible differences between it and passive mode - if the volume is matched. 
  
 I didn't bother with the stock tubes, instead mainly using a matched quad of NOS Sylvania WGTA (66'), but also a matched quad of new production Tangsols and a pair of VT-231 TangSols - I struggle to hear a difference between the although I expect the to sound different. 
  
 Is it a case of break in for the tubes/Freya?
  
 Rest of the system is RPI > Yggy > Freya > ATI6002 > ML Electromotions - all cables balanced end to end.
  
 Your thoughts are appreciated.


----------



## Baldr

belgiangenius said:


> Mike, we're beginning to get the impression you're not that fond of 12AU7/AT7.
> 
> I have a Lampizator DAC that uses them.  I managed to find some that I thought sounded really good, mostly German Telefunken or Siemens tubes.  Given the way they sound, I can see that quite possibly they are not the most linear of tubes, though.  Certain parts of the audible spectrum do seem exaggerated over other parts.
> 
> It all became moot when I got my Yggdrasil though, because the Yggy sounds better.


 

 They have a strong presence in old analog communication receivers where a certain audio "punch" is required to understand audio with much rf noise in the background.


----------



## MefAudio

chrispb1 said:


> Would appreciate any informed response.
> My Freya is 2 days old. Very quiet but overly bright. Seems to be calming down with more hours. Have any users experienced the same and how long did it take to normalise?
> 
> My preferred listening at the moment is via buffered stage. The tube has some qualities, but I find it a bit agressive. Has any observed this? Does it calm down with use? Would a change of tubes remove this negative attribute and improve of buffered stage?
> ...




I was actually thinking the same thing as watchnerd- i would at least check the sound with a different set of connectors. It might not help but if it does it is an easy fix. I have silver plated copper wires that I really want to swap out for solid copper.


----------



## Chrispb1

Thx Guys, prior to the Silver IC's with the Mcintosh -re in situ, I had Lat ic 100 IC's and you are correct in that the sound was more bright with I changed to the silver, but not overly at all, better in every way in fact. Then with the Freya installed, one of favourite artist Patricia Barber sounded fantastic buffered (but still a tad harsh on the valves) but then having a bit of bass thuggery with some on some pop rock (yes the recording is slightly more on the bright side) but it just went OTT, which I never experienced with the Mcintosh. Maybe I'm expecting too much for £725 but the less complex simple circuit makes sense for potentially more transparent sound. 

All that said, I listened again last night and it seems to have mellowed a little bit, or I'm just acclimatising. It took the Yggdrasil and the Mutec about 10 days to come on song so I'll wait a few more days before changing cables and confusing my brain further. 

Any views on alternative tubes?


----------



## US Blues

chrispb1 said:


> Thx Guys, prior to the Silver IC's with the Mcintosh -re in situ, I had Lat ic 100 IC's and you are correct in that the sound was more bright with I changed to the silver, but not overly at all, better in every way in fact. Then with the Freya installed, one of favourite artist Patricia Barber sounded fantastic buffered (but still a tad harsh on the valves) but then having a bit of bass thuggery with some on some pop rock (yes the recording is slightly more on the bright side) but it just went OTT, which I never experienced with the Mcintosh. Maybe I'm expecting too much for £725 but the less complex simple circuit makes sense for potentially more transparent sound.
> 
> All that said, I listened again last night and it seems to have mellowed a little bit, or I'm just acclimatising. It took the Yggdrasil and the Mutec about 10 days to come on song so I'll wait a few more days before changing cables and confusing my brain further.
> 
> Any views on alternative tubes?


 

 I've had my Freya for a few weeks, and listen exclusively in tube mode with a matched quad of new production Tung Sols. I do not find the Freya to be bright, although I find some recordings to be brighter than I recall, and some duller than I recall. I would encourage you to give it a couple of weeks to settle in before drawing a final conclusion. I said in a previous post that it is difficult to know how much of the sound is due to tubes settling in or the whole preamp settling in. 
  
 Regarding tubes, most folks here have found the stock tubes to be OK, and most folks have moved along to the NP Tung Sols or more exotic NOS tubes. The consensus seems to be that a matched quad of NP Tung Sols is great, and some of the NOS tubes (RCA red base and such) go a bit further.
  
 I hope this is helpful.


----------



## bigro

us blues said:


> I've had my Freya for a few weeks, and listen exclusively in tube mode with a matched quad of new production Tung Sols. I do not find the Freya to be bright, although I find some recordings to be brighter than I recall, and some duller than I recall. I would encourage you to give it a couple of weeks to settle in before drawing a final conclusion. I said in a previous post that it is difficult to know how much of the sound is due to tubes settling in or the whole preamp settling in.
> 
> Regarding tubes, most folks here have found the stock tubes to be OK, and most folks have moved along to the NP Tung Sols or more exotic NOS tubes. The consensus seems to be that a matched quad of NP Tung Sols is great, and some of the NOS tubes (RCA red base and such) go a bit further.
> 
> I hope this is helpful.


 
 Yes. I Gave the Stock tubes a run for a while but did swapping out the tubes or Valves is the way to go. I found even swapping out the output side to make a noticeable difference


----------



## Chrispb1

Thank you US Blues. I'm listening right now in tube mode to Albert Collins Ice Man Album, the wow moments are manifold and the edginess definitely improving. It seems some of the harshness has been replaced with texture? The Genesis 5.3's speakers are very tweakable with seprate treble, mid and bass level and crossover controls so I can hopefully dial out any remaining negatives. 
PS I'll be really interested in how you perceive the Vidar's when they arrive.


----------



## Chrispb1

Thx Bigro


----------



## KoshNaranek

us blues said:


> I've had my Freya for a few weeks, and listen exclusively in tube mode with a matched quad of new production Tung Sols. I do not find the Freya to be bright, although I find some recordings to be brighter than I recall, and some duller than I recall. I would encourage you to give it a couple of weeks to settle in before drawing a final conclusion. I said in a previous post that it is difficult to know how much of the sound is due to tubes settling in or the whole preamp settling in.
> 
> Regarding tubes, most folks here have found the stock tubes to be OK, and most folks have moved along to the NP Tung Sols or more exotic NOS tubes. The consensus seems to be that a matched quad of NP Tung Sols is great, and some of the NOS tubes (RCA red base and such) go a bit further.
> 
> I hope this is helpful.





This would fit with my experience with Saga.


----------



## Synergist969

Speaking of various 6SN7 tubes that will work well with Freya...
  
 My initial understanding of Schiit Audio's Freya was that Schiit Audio intended to source/manufacture(?)/sell the LISST "Tubes" version...
  
 So, I am wondering if there is any new/additional information about their production/availability time frame...???...
  
 I would love to have them as back-ups to vacuum tubes, and/or as an alternative, just in case I wanted to leave the pre-amp on for very extended time periods and not "use up" the vacuum tubes...as well as not have to extract them from Freya if I simply wanted to use the active buffer function, or even run balanced and not want to "use up" those little glass gems...
  
 (Only thing preventing me from purchasing the Freya is not being able to verify that those 6S7N LISST "tubes" are coming and available...)


----------



## US Blues

synergist969 said:


> Speaking of various 6SN7 tubes that will work well with Freya...
> 
> My initial understanding of Schiit Audio's Freya was that Schiit Audio intended to source/manufacture(?)/sell the LISST "Tubes" version...
> 
> So, I am wondering if there is any new/additional information about their production/availability time frame...???...


 
  
 There is no new info from Schiit at this time regarding LISST tubes for Freya/Sage.


----------



## RoundRound

Guys,
 Of the 4 tubes, which pair has more influence on the sound? The right one(Gain) or the left?
  
 I'm thinking if I only have a single matched pair of some Tang Sols V-231s where should I put them?


----------



## JohnnyCanuck

roundround said:


> Guys,
> Of the 4 tubes, which pair has more influence on the sound? The right one(Gain) or the left?
> 
> I'm thinking if I only have a single matched pair of some Tang Sols V-231s where should I put them?


 
  
 The gain tubes will have more influence on the sound than the cathode followers.


----------



## Makato

As new owner of Freya and Gungnir I must say I like it a lot.
  
 I can distinguish between the noise levels easily; the passive state is dead silent, the JFET stage audible with my ear almost in the speaker. The tube stage is audible from about 25 cm (one feet?).
 This is on my old and trustworthy Dali 1.7 SE.
  
 Some have mentioned it already. The Freya runs quite hot (after several hours).
 Could I safely run it with the tubes removed? I like the sound of it, but do not require it during normal working hours, i.e. watching TV/movies 
  
 I would gladly install them when I want to sit down and listen to music.
  
  
 Gungnir Multibit -> Freya -> Nord Acoustics SE UP NC500DM -> Dali 1.7 SE


----------



## cskippy

Yep, just pull the tubes when you don't want to use them.  Passive and JFET will still work.


----------



## RoundRound

How long did you Freya's too to break in?
  
 I've had mine almost non-stop for 3 days now and it sounds great. 
  
 But I can't really hear any noticeable difference between different tubes and frankly the JFET also sounds very close to the tubes...
  
 I tried a matched quad of new Tang Sols, a matched Sylvania WGTA quad (66') and even a pair of TangSol V-231... 
  
 It's all very clear but I was kinda expecting the Tube sound... Maybe its too early?


----------



## Makato

I can hear the noise floor rise when using the tube stage.
 The effect depends strongly on the rest of your equipment ofc.
  
 The gungnir multibit is dead silent and when I switch the Freya from passive to JFET and finally tubes I can hear the noise floor rise.
 From which I conclude these stages introduce that (as the input is exactly the same as is my amp and speakers)
  
 Burn in time: I ran it from yesterday about 16:00 to 23:00. And it ran hot, very hot...
  
 Forgot to mention/answer: soundwise I think the JFET and tube are indeed close.
 Not sure if break in will change that, we will see.


----------



## dwilli852

dwilli852 said:


> Fed ex delivered my Freya today. So first impressions are it's ok. With the stock tubes the highs and upper midrange seem rolled off. All the little details that make the Yggdrasil so great seem to get lost.
> 
> I replaced the Freya with the old preamp and everything returned. I don't know maybe the tubes or just needs some burn in time. I've got some NOS tubes on the way hope that helps.
> 
> ...


 

 My Freya is back in the box waiting on a RMA from Schitt.
  
 Hope they stand behind their return policy.
  
 It was on 24 hrs a day for 4 days to burn in.
  
  Now it has developed a really bad 60 hz buzz.
  
 It wasn't there before and nothing has changed.
  
 My guess is the tubes are picking up the noise from somewhere.
  
 I give up.
  
 I'm not putting any more time or effort into it.
  
 Yes the passive and JFET work fine but I got it for a tube preamp.
  
 Maybe I just got a bad one.


----------



## mhamel

Follow-up on the PSVane tubes I'd mentioned previously...
  
 They just fit with socket savers - I'm using a quad of the Tube Monger socket savers, which just fit into the openings in the top of the Freya.
  
 I'm honestly not expecting much from the tubes, but keeping an open mind and will give them a fair shot once they've had some time to burn in.
  
 I also picked up a matched quad of 1960s 6H8C which will get rolled in after I evaluate the PSVanes.


----------



## rnros

Good to know on the TM socket savers.
 Interested to hear how they sound. Regardless of sound, they are a nice looking quad of coke bottles. 
  
 I've heard some 6N8S in the Schiit headphone amps, I do like the late 50s early 60s FOTONs. Impressive. However not quite up to the level of some of the 50s USA 6SN7s.


----------



## mhamel

rnros said:


> Good to know on the TM socket savers.
> Interested to hear how they sound. Regardless of sound, they are a nice looking quad of coke bottles.
> 
> I've heard some 6N8S in the Schiit headphone amps, I do like the late 50s early 60s FOTONs. Impressive. However not quite up to the level of some of the 50s USA 6SN7s.


 
  
 They definitely look cool.  They've only been in for a couple of hours, so pretty early to make much in the way of observations, but I'm not blown away so far.
  
 I will definitely pick up some NOS offerings to roll, and will eventually pick up a quad of 5692 to try out.


----------



## Jozurr

You would think they would have designed the freya with sockets sitting flush with the casing to avoid fit issues with some tubes. No reason not to.


----------



## Ghosthouse

Greetings folks - Been a reader but rarely a poster on HeadFi.  Was happy to see the various Schiit threads here and in particular this one about Freya impressions and tube rolling.  Have been running a Freya in a 2 channel system the last 10 days or so.  
  
 Had been looking for something solid state and balanced.  CDP, DAC & Amp all balanced.  Didn't really want tubes but also didn't want an on-board DAC or phono-stage that so many preamps seem to include these days.  The price tag for the Freya was a major attractor.  I'd also been very curious about running passive given the healthy output voltage from the TEAC CD-3000 and stock Gungnir, especially in balanced.  
  
 Very impressed with sonics running the Freya in passive or JFET buffer modes.  Mainly using tube output when playing vinyl with input from a Heed Quasar.  To my ear at least, the stock tubes bring a bit more heft and "presence" to the sound while (as others have commented) passive and JFET seem to provide greater clarity but are by no means "thin sounding".  Really enjoying music with the Freya in all modes and definitely appreciate what it has contributed to the sound compared to the tube preamp I'd been using (2 x 6H30s; 1 x EZ80 rectifier).  The Freya has provided a finer, more detailed presentation yet without harshness.  Female vocals at higher volumes don't seem to have the sort of hardness that I used to hear.  Treble overall is a lot more pleasant.  
  
 With respect to the stock tubes, the first set had a some major issues with microphonics.  Nick/Schiit were very responsive and quickly sent a replacement quad (they provided return shipping for the original set).  The replacement quad had no issues with microphonics but a couple days ago, I noticed some rustling/static noise from the left channel along with the occasional muted "pop".  Sounded like a noisy tube to me.  Reversed gain and then buffer tubes, front to back and back to front.  Noise remained in the left channel after both those changes.  Reversed R & L legs of the IC from preamp to amp, NOW the rustling noise moved to the right amp.  Seemed to confirm the noise was coming from the preamp.  Not sure what to do.  Didn't want to send it in...enjoying it too much in JFET!  No noise at all in Passive or JFET.  The unit is EXTREMELY quiet in these modes.  Finally decided to try the only switch I'd not yet tried which was to reverse gain and buffer tubes L <- > R.  Moved the right pair to the left and left to right.  Happily, I suppose, am now hearing the noise (although much fainter) in the right channel.  No noise evident while music is playing, but between tracks when near the speaker, I can hear it.  This makes NO sense to me as I thought the L & R orientation for gain and buffer tubes, respectively, was Front and Rear (not certain which is which L = Front; R = Rear???).  
  
 Wonder if anyone here has a suggestion to explain why the  R to L move seems to have fixed things.  Meanwhile, have ordered a pair of NOS 6H8Cs from Upscale.  Will try to use these to replace the noisy culprit.  
  
 Have followed avidly the tube rolling discussion here.  Given how close tube output is to both Passive & JFET (at least to my ears), I'm not sure how much $ I'm inclined to invest in "better" NOS tubes.  I do note the high regard for new production TungSols, however.  
  
 So that's my story.  Appreciate hearing from anyone with thoughts about that tube noise.


----------



## founded

It is hard to ignore the multiple comments in thread re the similarity of tube to buffered passive mode.
  
 Now I am not going to pretend to understand this, but the quote is interesting:
  
 "... FETs represent what is known as a "square-law" device, very similar to the situation with tubes. In fact, FETs can be viewed as solid state tubes in how they operate, but with improved linearity in most instances."
  
 quote from Doug Hurlbert, DSA
 interview with Dagogo, 2012, January


----------



## mhamel

mhamel said:


> They definitely look cool.  They've only been in for a couple of hours, so pretty early to make much in the way of observations, but I'm not blown away so far.


 
  
 Short-lived experiment is short. As always, this is just my subjective observation, in my system, and of course ymmv.
  
 I may give these some more time to burn in at some point, but they're out for now.. to me, they are overly soft-sounding, smooth but lacking in detail and dynamics. Compared to the stock tubes, the soundstage loses space in all directions, but seems particularly flat front-to-back.


----------



## Pandahead

ghosthouse said:


> Greetings folks - Been a reader but rarely a poster on HeadFi.  Was happy to see the various Schiit threads here and in particular this one about Freya impressions and tube rolling.  Have been running a Freya in a 2 channel system the last 10 days or so.
> 
> Had been looking for something solid state and balanced.  CDP, DAC & Amp all balanced.  Didn't really want tubes but also didn't want an on-board DAC or phono-stage that so many preamps seem to include these days.  The price tag for the Freya was a major attractor.  I'd also been very curious about running passive given the healthy output voltage from the TEAC CD-3000 and stock Gungnir, especially in balanced.
> 
> ...


 

 ​That is confusing. The tubes on the right side are the input and the left side are the followers so it makes sense if you swapped inputs over to the left side that would make the noise less or maybe mostly go away. If you took the two front tubes and moved them to the back and the back forward the noise should have been in the other channel. Maybe handling them plugging and unplugging did something? Either way you're not alone. Mine were so noisy they weren't worth fooling with. My suggestion is to offer for $75 that Freya would come with a matched quad of the new production Tung Sols so owners would be of to a better start.. Save up for some 5692s if you can and want to try. The brown base Upscale has sounds identical to the two used red bases I have best I can tell swapping them from input to followers. For me it's such a noticeable improvement having those 4 in Freya over the Tung Sols and JFET I would never go back.


----------



## Ghosthouse

Thanks Panda - I'm thinking as you:  handling the 3rd time was the charm....which is not to say, the noise won't come back at some point.  Appreciate your comments about tubes though.  Probably see how this Upscale pair of 6H8Cs work; try to find the noise maker.  You really hear a marked difference over JFET with those 5692s?  Hate to spend the $ and not be able to hear a step change in performance.
  
 Have to say, right now though tube output is sounding pretty sweet (Van Morrison "Hymns to the Silence" from old vinyl).
  
 founded - that is a very interesting quote from Doug Hurlbert re FETs.


----------



## MefAudio

ghosthouse said:


> Greetings folks - Been a reader but rarely a poster on HeadFi.  Was happy to see the various Schiit threads here and in particular this one about Freya impressions and tube rolling.  Have been running a Freya in a 2 channel system the last 10 days or so.
> 
> Had been looking for something solid state and balanced.  CDP, DAC & Amp all balanced.  Didn't really want tubes but also didn't want an on-board DAC or phono-stage that so many preamps seem to include these days.  The price tag for the Freya was a major attractor.  I'd also been very curious about running passive given the healthy output voltage from the TEAC CD-3000 and stock Gungnir, especially in balanced.
> 
> ...


 
 Great perspective! I also had some issues with noise but I've not noticed it recently as I've been running with the new Tong Sols. I don't think the TS fixed the problem I just have been lost in the music and haven't been listening for the noise. Speaking of Tong Sols, if I had one affordable quad to purchase I think the Tong Sols would do it. I have a matched quad and am waiting for 6 more to arrive (another matched quad for back up and a matched pair for use with my output buffers when running my exotic tube pairs).


----------



## theveterans

ghosthouse said:


> Thanks Panda - I'm thinking as you:  handling the 3rd time was the charm....which is not to say, the noise won't come back at some point.  Appreciate your comments about tubes though.  Probably see how this Upscale pair of 6H8Cs work; try to find the noise maker.  You really hear a marked difference over JFET with those 5692s?  Hate to spend the $ and not be able to hear a step change in performance.
> 
> Have to say, right now though tube output is sounding pretty sweet (Van Morrison "Hymns to the Silence" from old vinyl).
> 
> founded - that is a very interesting quote from Doug Hurlbert re FETs.




Not directed towards me but IMO to hear is to believe. I wouldn't advocate the 5692s if it only improves it marginally. IMO the 5692s is like JFET on steroids. It's like going from a Bimby and to Yggy in sound.


----------



## gmahler2u

Hello...
  
 I'm a Schiit-mania!!  I have Jotty combo with bimby.  My question is that is Saga worth getting, if I have jot and bimby? or just don't get it...and is Saga compatible with Vidar?  
 OR don't get saga it's suck just get Freya.....
  
 Thank you for your time..


----------



## US Blues

gmahler2u said:


> Hello...
> 
> I'm a Schiit-mania!!  I have Jotty combo with bimby.  My question is that is Saga worth getting, if I have jot and bimby? or just don't get it...and is Saga compatible with Vidar?
> OR don't get saga it's suck just get Freya.....
> ...


 

 Howdy friend. It's hard to give a proper answer to your questions without knowing the system building objective you have. What speakers, room size, musical preferences? 
  
 Saga is compatible with Vidar, as is Freya. Which is for you will, again, depend on your needs, your budget, and how much of your money you'd like us to spend for you.


----------



## gmahler2u

us blues said:


> Howdy friend. It's hard to give a proper answer to your questions without knowing the system building objective you have. What speakers, room size, musical preferences?
> 
> Saga is compatible with Vidar, as is Freya. Which is for you will, again, depend on your needs, your budget, and how much of your money you'd like us to spend for you.


 
 Sorry, about I wasn't clear...
 1st my budget is limited 
 2nd not for the speaker just for my HF
 3rd my room is not big but it's my main bedroom
 4th musical preferences kind of confusing....Very analytical, not too warm not too cold.


----------



## US Blues

gmahler2u said:


> us blues said:
> 
> 
> > Howdy friend. It's hard to give a proper answer to your questions without knowing the system building objective you have. What speakers, room size, musical preferences?
> ...


 

 If you are just using headphones then you are set with the Jot and Bimby. The Saga and Freya preamps, and especially the Vidar power amps, are for use in speaker-based systems.


----------



## gmahler2u

us blues said:


> If you are just using headphones then you are set with the Jot and Bimby. The Saga and Freya preamps, and especially the Vidar power amps, are for use in speaker-based systems.


 
 OK...Thank you for the clearing that out for me...
  
 Cheer!


----------



## discogser

Hi! I am a newcomer here and would appreciate your advice.
 Have someone compared Freya to tube preamps from other brands? McIntosh C2300 for example? How does it compare in sound quality? It is a different price point but one could always buy used big name gear while Freya is new only, so while considering used gear price difference is not that huge anymore. I would appreciate if someone can describe their comparison tests if someone did them!
 I am interested in Freya and Schiit in general because Schiit doesn't try to rip me off with ridiculous marketing ******** unlike some other companies, but I am actually ready to pay much more than Schiit asks for Freya, I just need a really top quality performance preamp and a smart buy at the same time, and now I am mostly choosing between Freya and used McIntosh C2300, but any other recommendations are also highly appreciated!


----------



## Ghosthouse

Hello discogser - 
 The Freya is much better than a 6H30/EZ80 tube pre-amp I was using (and still have).  I'd call the improvements better clarity, detail, soundstage & musicality.  Also, worth noting I kept this 6H30 pre instead of a used CJ 6922 based pre I was trying out (can't recall model...one of their mainline pieces, however).  Music just sounded better with the 6H30/EZ80 pre.  Some recordings sounded great with the CJ but other things I had enjoyed were unpleasant with it.  Not sure why.  A certain hardness to some music seemed to come along with the improved resolution.  With the Freya EVERYTHING is sounding good...CDs, SACDs, ripped CDs, Tidal, Spotify and Vinyl.  Listening longer and enjoying it more.
  
 The 6H30 pre (Opera Consonance Reference 50), discounted but new, is ~2-2.5x more costly than the Freya.  My gut feel, my O-pinion, is that the Freya performs like something priced 3x higher (easily) than what Schiit is charging.
  
 Schiit has a 15 day return policy.  You'd be risking a 5% restocking fee....so $35 bucks (+ shipping?).  For that investment, worth trying in your system I think.  Let your own ears make the decision about performance.  Sorry that I can't address the C2300 comparison for you but will note Freya carries a 5 year warranty.  What sort of warranty would you be able to get on a used C2300?
  
 Good luck in your search.  Hope you find something that delivers the musical goods for you.


----------



## schneller

Does anyone know if Schiit has considered DAC+Pre based on the Yiggy with of course both SE and balanced XLR outputs?


----------



## watchnerd

schneller said:


> Does anyone know if Schiit has considered DAC+Pre based on the Yiggy with of course both SE and balanced XLR outputs?


 
  
 What performance advantage would that have compared to just using a Yggy with a Freya?


----------



## schneller

watchnerd said:


> What performance advantage would that have compared to just using a Yggy with a Freya?




Elegant one box solution. Just add Vidar. Or two.


----------



## 34th Street

OK, here are my observations on Freya after ~200 hours of use:
  

The unit needs a good 50 hours of break-in. All modes sounded a touch hard during this time. Super detailed and clear, but the treble sounded somehow disconnected from the overall presentation.
After burn in, hardness is gone, but the treble is clearly a bit uptilted, at least vs. the Cambridge audio unit it replaced. For me, this was a good thing, as my system had always leaned a bit toward the dark side.
The sound of the passive and JFET stages have similar transparency, but the passive mode looses a little punch at higher levels. But that’s more a reflection o the output stage that’s feeding it, so your mileage will definitely vary.
Stock tubes were a mixed bag vs JFET. And after about 50 hours, they became super noisy. Siizzling bacon sounds and pops were clearly audible from my listening seat. But no big deal, the plan was to replace them with Tung Sols anyway.
The Tung Sols bring the magic! The clarity of the Freya architecture + the imaging of the tubes has brought my system to a whole new level. Like noticeable from a different room noticeable. 
  
 So overall, this purchase has caused me to fall in love with my 25+ year hobby all over again.  And my first audio love was for Theta Pro Basic II (which a Bifrost uber bettered, btw) and Sumo Athena pre-amp – so I guess I’ve come full circle!
  
 The only bummer is that you can’t preserve the tubes by running passive or JFET. I’d assumed that would be possible, which would have been be great since my system does double duty as a 2-channel TV system. I imagine there’s a good (ie no compromise) reason that it can’t work that way, but it would be great if there could be some kind of mod or update to be able to switch off the tubes (I don’t want to yank them out or insert a socket saver into the signal path). But whatever, for what it’s done to the sound, I’m fine replacing the tubes every year or so.
  
 For context, the here’s the system the Freya was inserted into:
  
 VPI prime +dynavector 20x +Tavish Vintage tube or Bitfrost uber -> Freya -> Acurus A250 -> Forest Totems
  
 So get one and have fun!


----------



## watchnerd

schneller said:


> Elegant one box solution. Just add Vidar. Or two.


 
  
 Do you think it will perform better if it's all in one box?


----------



## schneller

watchnerd said:


> Do you think it will perform better if it's all in one box?




Not sure. Less is more for me.


----------



## watchnerd

34th street said:


> The only bummer is that you can’t preserve the tubes by running passive or JFET. I’d assumed that would be possible, which would have been be great since my system does double duty as a 2-channel TV system. I imagine there’s a good (ie no compromise) reason that it can’t work that way, but it would be great if there could be some kind of mod or update to be able to switch off the tubes (I don’t want to yank them out or insert a socket saver into the signal path). But whatever, for what it’s done to the sound, I’m fine replacing the tubes every year or so.


 
  
 I replaced the stock tubes with modern production Tung Sols for similar reasons -- they deteriorated pretty rapidly after being left on constantly for a few weeks.
  
 As for preserving tube life -- meh, they're cheap modern tubes.  Probably last longer than a year given they're not power tubes.
  
 I leave mine on 24x7.


----------



## watchnerd

schneller said:


> Not sure. Less is more for me.


 
  
 All things being equal, it probably won't perform better.
  
 But if you want to weigh all-in-one convenience over performance, why not get a Jotunheim, instead?


----------



## founded

I was thinking today we are up to over 50 hours on Freya and something does seem different ... per a previous post, much listening was done at 3 o'clock or less but now I find the range as low as 12 o'clock. 34thSTREET just posted:
  
 "The unit needs a good 50 hours of break-in"
  
 So I agree with that time frame. And per almost universal agreement, there should be a way to switch off the tube stage. If the tubeheads of the past knew we were yanking out tubes they would be in shock. What a gorgeous way to destroy your glass! Tube manuals of the past warn exactly against that kind of nonsense. Surely the rocket scientists at Schiit can find a workaround for a switch adding noise to the circuit.


----------



## Ghosthouse

34th Street - Appreciate your comments re Freya circa 200 hrs.  Am  running Totem Forests myself (can't recall if I mentioned that in an earlier post).


----------



## MefAudio

34th street said:


> OK, here are my observations on Freya after ~200 hours of use:
> 
> 
> The unit needs a good 50 hours of break-in. All modes sounded a touch hard during this time. Super detailed and clear, but the treble sounded somehow disconnected from the overall presentation.
> ...




Great feedback! I completely agree about the new Tong Sols, they made a massive difference. I had my cousin over last weekend and we did some tests with some of my tubes. When I put the Tong Sols in even before break-in he was like "wow, that sounds 10X better" and he is very untrained in the ways of the audiophile so the difference was obviously huge. Bass is just a little soft but I can live with that. I know they are like $90 per quad retail but I really do wish somehow they could be part of the stock tube set. I think it would make general impressions of the Freya even stronger. 

Just got the notice that 6 more new TS on the way. One day I might get a case for safe keeping lol.

I am starting to run into the problem of not wanting to turn on Freya because I will only be listening for 10-15 min and I didn't want to "waste" tube life. Not as big of a deal with the new production tubes but with some of the expensive ones it is an inconvenience. If it wouldn't effect performance I would also love to see a second switch (maybe on the back lol) that kills the tube stage. That would be a very functional upgrade for my situation.


----------



## watchnerd

mefaudio said:


> Great feedback! I completely agree about the new Tong Sols, they made a massive difference. I had my cousin over last weekend and we did some tests with some of my tubes. When I put the Tong Sols in even before break-in he was like "wow, that sounds 10X better" and he is very untrained in the ways of the audiophile so the difference was obviously huge. Bass is just a little soft but I can live with that. I know they are like $90 per quad retail but I really do wish somehow they could be part of the stock tube set. I think it would make general impressions of the Freya even stronger.
> 
> Just got the notice that 6 more new TS on the way. One day I might get a case for safe keeping lol.
> 
> I am starting to run into the problem of not wanting to turn on Freya because I will only be listening for 10-15 min and I didn't want to "waste" tube life. Not as big of a deal with the new production tubes but with some of the expensive ones it is an inconvenience. If it wouldn't effect performance I would also love to see a second switch (maybe on the back lol) that kills the tube stage. That would be a very functional upgrade for my situation.


 
  
 TUNG Sol, guys.
  
 The "tung" stands for tungsten.


----------



## winders

watchnerd said:


> TUNG Sol, guys.
> 
> The "tung" stands for tungsten.


 

 And the "Sol" stands for Sun.


----------



## founded

mefaudio said:


> Great feedback! I completely agree about the new Tong Sols, they made a massive difference. I had my cousin over last weekend and we did some tests with some of my tubes. When I put the Tong Sols in even before break-in he was like "wow, that sounds 10X better" and he is very untrained in the ways of the audiophile so the difference was obviously huge. Bass is just a little soft but I can live with that. I know they are like $90 per quad retail but I really do wish somehow they could be part of the stock tube set. I think it would make general impressions of the Freya even stronger.
> 
> Just got the notice that 6 more new TS on the way. One day I might get a case for safe keeping lol.
> 
> I am starting to run into the problem of not wanting to turn on Freya because I will only be listening for 10-15 min and I didn't want to "waste" tube life. Not as big of a deal with the new production tubes but with some of the expensive ones it is an inconvenience. If it wouldn't effect performance I would also love to see a second switch (maybe on the back lol) that kills the tube stage. That would be a very functional upgrade for my situation.


 
 On the 6sn7 thread there is a link to a book from July, 1960 called "Getting The Most Out Of Vacuum Tubes" by Robert C. Tomer
  
 from page 10:
  
 "Not disturbing tubes that are functioning properly will also help reduce the incidence of this type of failure, because it is a proven fact that merely removing and inserting the same tube in the same socket will eventually lead to broken pins and cracked glass"
  
 and from page 129:
  
 "In many applications, such as mobile operations, filamentary tubes permit complete shutdown during standby. This gives them a substanial advantage in power economy and increases their useful life since they can be ready for instant operation w/o the needless burning of filaments that are not actually in use"


----------



## Ghosthouse

Hello again folks.  I hope I'm not beating a dead horse but I am hoping for some confirmation about tube orientation in the Freya.  
  
 Member TwatterShatter had posed a question over on the Improbable Startup thread asking about tube orientation and noting conflicting info re tube orientation in his supplied owner's manual vs the on-line Freya manual at the Schiit website.  I don't think I've seen a response to his question there.  Don't think I've come across the info here either.
  
 The Freya owner's manual I received with mine on Jan 17 says FRONT tubes are voltage gain and REAR tubes are cathode follower output.   
  
 BUT the on-line Freya manual at the Schiit website says:  "If you’re curious, the RIGHT tubes are for the differential voltage gain stage. The LEFT tubes are for the cathode follower output stage."  
  
 Which of these statements is correct? AND for the correct orientation, which are the right and which are the left channel tubes??
  
  Why this matters is if one is interested in spending to upgrade ONLY the tubes in the gain position while keeping the stock tubes in the buffer position.
  
 Which pair should be changed out?  Which pair should be kept?
  
 I'd really appreciate some clarification on this.  THANKS in advance.


----------



## bigro

jason stoddard said:


> On Freya...it's imminent. First articles were qualified last week. We're just waiting for boards. Should be this week (we'll see.)
> 
> With respect to tubes, yes, you'll want matched tubes at least for the input pair. The input pair does voltage gain, so it's the most critical. *The input pair is on the right-hand side of the quad. The output pair is on the left-hand side. It's a follower, so it's less critical. *
> 
> ...


----------



## TonyNewman

Technical question - I am sitting on a stash of 6C8G tubes (TS RPs and NUs). Is it safe to used these in the Freya? They are identical to the 6SN7, except that they have a little more gain (around 20-30%).


----------



## Ghosthouse

Thanks bigro - I now recall reading that statement from Jason.  Appreciate you taking time to find it.  
  
 Okay so if gain tubes are the right pair and buffer is left, how are R & L channels oriented?
  
 Rear = right?
  
 Front = left??
  
 Thanks again.


----------



## discogser

ghosthouse said:


> Hello discogser -
> The Freya is much better than a 6H30/EZ80 tube pre-amp I was using (and still have).  I'd call the improvements better clarity, detail, soundstage & musicality.  Also, worth noting I kept this 6H30 pre instead of a used CJ 6922 based pre I was trying out (can't recall model...one of their mainline pieces, however).  Music just sounded better with the 6H30/EZ80 pre.  Some recordings sounded great with the CJ but other things I had enjoyed were unpleasant with it.  Not sure why.  A certain hardness to some music seemed to come along with the improved resolution.  With the Freya EVERYTHING is sounding good...CDs, SACDs, ripped CDs, Tidal, Spotify and Vinyl.  Listening longer and enjoying it more.
> 
> The 6H30 pre (Opera Consonance Reference 50), discounted but new, is ~2-2.5x more costly than the Freya.  My gut feel, my O-pinion, is that the Freya performs like something priced 3x higher (easily) than what Schiit is charging.
> ...


 
  
 Thanks for the reply, Ghosthouse.
 Actually, 15 day return policy doesn't work in my case. I am from Russia, Russian distributor doesn't have Freya yet, Schiit.com doesn't ship to Russia, I would have to use American reshipper if I ordered from Schiit.com, but in this case 15 days return policy starts from the moment when the American reshipper gets the product, not me. So it doesn't work in my case. 
 Interestingly, judging by the way this thread unfolds over 16 pages, I could imply that Freya is the first 2-channel system tube preamp for most Freya buyers here. And it is awesome because this is exactly how hi-fi / high-end goes to the masses in 21st century, this is how younger people start appreciating the beauty and the art of sound. Wonderful.


----------



## theveterans

discogser said:


> Thanks for the reply, Ghosthouse.
> Actually, 15 day return policy doesn't work in my case. I am from Russia, Russian distributor doesn't have Freya yet, Schiit.com doesn't ship to Russia, I would have to use American reshipper if I ordered from Schiit.com, but in this case 15 days return policy starts from the moment when the American reshipper gets the product, not me. So it doesn't work in my case.
> Interestingly, judging by the way this thread unfolds over 16 pages, I could imply that Freya is the first 2-channel system tube preamp for most Freya buyers here. And it is awesome because this is exactly how hi-fi / high-end goes to the masses in 21st century, this is how younger people start appreciating the beauty and the art of sound. Wonderful.




It doesn't have to be the Freya IMO, my Saga with 5692 beats my Freya with the 6H8C stock tubes and JFET.


----------



## Ghosthouse

Sorry about the complication the international shipping introduces, discogser.  Hopefully, Schiit will get distribution of the Freya in Russia soon.  
  
 I agree with you that Freya would be a great way for anyone to be introduced to tube pre-amplification.


----------



## MefAudio

founded said:


> On the 6sn7 thread there is a link to a book from July, 1960 called "Getting The Most Out Of Vacuum Tubes" by Robert C. Tomer
> 
> from page 10:
> 
> ...




Very interesting. So Basically don't swap them out unless you want to/have to and make sure they power down completely and have proper cool down. I've been pulling them when still hot (if testing multiple types of tubes) so I should stop doing that. 

I'm in the process of going through the 6sn7 reference tube thread, I think I'm on page 15ish. It's very interesting. I wish I could find sound round plate or Russian 1576 tubes for a decent price. So far I can't find any for less than $400+


----------



## MefAudio

So it is frikin hard to find matched quads of the NOS exotic variety these days so my search into matched quad 5692s has stimulated a thought. Would I be able to hear a difference between a matched quad and two matched pairs? It would potentially make things a little cheaper and easier to source.


----------



## belgiangenius

Bought a pair of RCA red base 5692 from EBay and one of them is very staticy.

Any suggestions before I try to send it back?


----------



## Ghosthouse

mefaudio said:


> So it is frikin hard to find matched quads of the NOS exotic variety these days so my search into matched quad 5692s has stimulated a thought. Would I be able to hear a difference between a matched quad and two matched pairs? It would potentially make things a little cheaper and easier to source.


 

 Mef - Jason's comments re gain vs buffer tubes was that a matched gain pair is more important than close matching of the buffer pair.  From that I infer you might NOT hear a huge difference running a full matched quad vs two matched pairs.  That's my O-pinion (though you know what they say about opinion).  I expect I'll eventually be running different tube brand/pairs at gain and buffer positions.  The pairs will be matched but not against one another.  I believe others have done this too.  I don't expect it will exert a big penalty on sonics.  Won't know for sure though since I won't have a full matched quad of the same tubes to compare!


----------



## TonyNewman

Just posted this in the Utopia thread. It might be very relevant to folks in the Freya thread too.
  
 Got my Freya preamp today and have been experimenting in using it to direct drive the Utopia with a tube complement.
  
 Results so far are rather good. This is a fresh amp with fresh tubes - and it is already outperforming the Master 9 IMHO. I am getting great detail and dynamics - lots of punch and very little treble fatigue. Once the tubes and amp are settled down I am expecting great things.
  
 The tubes I am using are JAN NIB TS-RPs from 1945. These are 6C8Gs - similar to 6SN7, but with about a 20% to 30% higher gain. I think this setup might not work with a 6SN7/6F8G tube as the higher gain appears to be necessary. The JFET option does not provide enough output to drive the Utopia (a very easy to drive headphone). The 6C8Gs do the job nicely with the knob at about 9 o'clock. Still some head space left.
  
 For those unfamiliar with the TS-RP, it is about the best tube in the 6SN7/6F8G/6C8G ... etc family that I have heard, and I have heard most of them at one point or another. NUs would be a close second. I have these also in JAN NIB 6C8Gs and will give those a try later. NUs are a sweeter sounding tube. Less dynamic than the TS-RP, but not by much. Both deliver mid range magic after about 50 hours.
  
 My own view is that the Russian Tung Sols are best used by throwing them in the bin immediately. Nasty, nasty tubes compared to the TS RP or NU.
  
 Here's a pic. I need to get more spacers to lift all the tubes up - will do this later. The openings are very tight.
  
 I think I will not bother at all in using the Freya as a preamp. It makes a fantastic headamp for the Utopia with the right tubes.
  

  
 The 6C8G tubes I am using (I don't have enough to sell any, so please don't ask).


----------



## theveterans

mefaudio said:


> So it is frikin hard to find matched quads of the NOS exotic variety these days so my search into matched quad 5692s has stimulated a thought. Would I be able to hear a difference between a matched quad and two matched pairs? It would potentially make things a little cheaper and easier to source.


 
  
 Matched pairs would be fine as long as the output stage tubes are matched. You don't need to match the input and output, but the pairs for both input and output needs to be matched.


----------



## MefAudio

theveterans said:


> Matched pairs would be fine as long as the output stage tubes are matched. You don't need to match the input and output, but the pairs for both input and output needs to be matched.




That sounds good to me and makes things a lot easier


----------



## wout31

..


----------



## winders

wout31 said:


> I have my Freya in for a couple of days now an d I don't understand all the fuss about changing the tubes.
> To my ears the passive and JFET mode of the Freya are sound wise superior to the tubes mode and I don't feel the need to change transistors, resistors,capacitors or any other electronic part. The passive mode is the most neutral in sound and the tube stage has the most colouration. Tubes were superior to transistors in the early days of transistors, but this year is 2016, not 1946.


 
  
 Isn't it great that we all get to believe what we want to believe and like what we want to like?
  
 http://www.butleraudio.com/tubesvstrans3.html


----------



## watchnerd

wout31 said:


> I have my Freya in for a couple of days now an d I don't understand all the fuss about changing the tubes.
> To my ears the passive and JFET mode of the Freya are sound wise superior to the tubes mode and I don't feel the need to change transistors, resistors,capacitors or any other electronic part. The passive mode is the most neutral in sound and the tube stage has the most colouration. Tubes were superior to transistors in the early days of transistors, but this year is 2016, not 1946.
> I love my Freya for it's open clear and very fine defined soundstage and ease of listening. Only old analogue recordings improve a bit by playing them with the tubes.


 
  
 I use tubes when I listen to recordings that were made, mastered, and originally released when tubes were dominant (1940s-1960s).
  
 The cool thing about the Freya is that I can change inputs to a more neutral method when listening to modern recordings.


----------



## FLTWS

winders said:


> Isn't it great that we all get to believe what we want to believe and like what we want to like?
> 
> http://www.butleraudio.com/tubesvstrans3.html


 
  
 I remember seeing that article years ago, a good one at that.


----------



## FLTWS

watchnerd said:


> I use tubes when I listen to recordings that were made, mastered, and originally released when tubes were dominant (1940s-1960s).
> 
> The cool thing about the Freya is that I can change inputs to a more neutral method when listening to modern recordings.


 
  
 Interesting thought. I don't think I've ever approached listening that way.


----------



## wout31

..


----------



## wout31

..


----------



## winders

wout31 said:


> Look at the date stamps of the reference articles: 1953 to 1972.
> Transistors have come a long way since.
> I'm not saying tubes is bad. I'm just surprised that people spend twice or more the price of the Freya to experiment with different tubes.


 

 Dude. Let people like what they like.......


----------



## TonyNewman

I have been experimenting with an idea from an audio friend and it has delivered results better than using the Freya direct as a headamp.
  
 I am using the Freya as a preamp to drive the M9. The M9 is running at 90% gain, the volume control coming from the Freya. So the M9 is acting as a headphone power amp.
  
 I don't know why this works so well, but it does. The softness in the bass has disappeared. I am getting punch, slam and attack from the M9 almost as good as I get from the modded HE6 driven from my Accuphase power amp.
  

  
 So my chain is Bricasti->Freya->M9->Utopia


----------



## FLTWS

@ watchnerd and wout31
  
 Many recordings especially the older ones may not give specifics about the recording gear. 1960 could be a reasonable line of demarcation. 
  
 I think all the old RCA Living Stereo series as well as Mercury Living Presence and the Telefunken's were tubed right from the start of the recording chain including the microphones. I'm not sure when Decca, EMI, Philips, and DG might have switched over. I'm guessing anything DDD would be SS all the way.
  
 I'll have to do some comparisons with my Ragy and MJ2. I do notice a preference for Ragy with my all digital recordings but never picked up on focusing on MJ2 with the vintage recordings. So much listening to do, so little time.
  
 Would be interesting if Schiit were to use the Freya circuitry options to produce a HP amp utilizing 6SN7 type tubes.
  
 I remember years ago I had a paperback titled along the lines of "The VTL Tube Book" that had a lot of interesting reads like the one mentioned earlier.  It's either lost or very well hidden away by me, LOL!


----------



## belgiangenius

My tube impressions so far, ranked in order of preference:
  
 1.  RCA VT-231 grey glass - sweet, sweet midrange, slightly rolled off highs, but DAMN - nice
 2.  Kenrad VT-231 staggered plates - stunning bass, clear highs - simply awesome, probably tied with #1
 3.  Sylvania VT-231 - very neutral, a bit lacking in bass, good in buffer position
 4.  CBS 5692 / RCA 5692 - these tubes sound the same to me and, based on the hype, are a big disappointment.  Very flat, neutral, lacking bass, and just unimpressive compared to #1 and #2.  Maybe they are as neutral as the JFETs, but what's the point?
 5.  Sylvania 6SN7GT chrome dome - super yawn, boring
 6.  stock Russian tubes that came with Freya - in comparison, these suck compared to everything above
  
 I'm a little surprised with #4.  Why are these 5692s so hyped?


----------



## theveterans

belgiangenius said:


> My tube impressions so far, ranked in order of preference:
> 
> 1.  RCA VT-231 grey glass - sweet, sweet midrange, slightly rolled off highs, but DAMN - nice
> 2.  Kenrad VT-231 staggered plates - stunning bass, clear highs - simply awesome, probably tied with #1
> ...


 
  
 Always YMMV.
  
 I ranked mine like this:
  
 1.) 5692 - Neutral, wide soundstage, focused imaging, accurate bass, clear highs. IMO it's pretty much an improved version of the JFET in all areas without any tube coloration whatsoever.
 2.) RCA GTB rectangular plates bottom getter - harsh and brighter than 5692, wide soundstage like the 5692, a bit less focused in imaging than 5692 (It's a step below 5692 in all areas)
 3.) CBS GTB side getter -> sweet midrange, rolled off highs, narrow soundstage = boring sound (yawn)
 4.) Stock tubes -> sucks


----------



## MefAudio

belgiangenius said:


> My tube impressions so far, ranked in order of preference:
> 
> 1.  RCA VT-231 grey glass - sweet, sweet midrange, slightly rolled off highs, but DAMN - nice
> 2.  Kenrad VT-231 staggered plates - stunning bass, clear highs - simply awesome, probably tied with #1
> ...




I'll be honest you might have received some bad 5692 tubes because mine are vivid as hell, killer bass for sure and detailed. I have two pair, RCA red base and CBS brown base (both 5692 and both sound good, red base very slightly better).

Of course it might be different in different systems... I wish I had ken rads to provide a comparison. I do have a NOS closely matched quad RCA vt-231 grey glass from 1945 but to be honest I haven't had the heart to try them (was keeping them as a surprise for when Vidar comes).


----------



## theveterans

mefaudio said:


> I'll be honest you might have received some bad 5692 tubes because mine are vivid as hell, killer bass for sure and detailed. I have two pair, RCA red base and CBS brown base (both 5692 and both sound good, red base very slightly better).
> 
> Of course it might be different in different systems... I wish I had ken rads to provide a comparison. I do have a NOS closely matched quad RCA vt-231 grey glass from 1945 but to be honest I haven't had the heart to try them (was keeping them as a surprise for when Vidar comes).


 
  
 Agree with your impressions with the 5692s. To me, the 5692 sounds like how Hi-Fi should sound (ZERO veil, extremely detailed, never gets mushy even in very complex passages, outstanding bass and treble quality.). Maybe he prefers a sweeter sound instead of neutral like the 5692s.


----------



## Pandahead

theveterans said:


> Agree with your impressions with the 5692s. To me, the 5692 sounds like how Hi-Fi should sound (ZERO veil, extremely detailed, never gets mushy even in very complex passages, outstanding bass and treble quality.). Maybe he prefers a sweeter sound instead of neutral like the 5692s.


 

 ​Enjoyed your post 4 days ago saying that having the 5692s in Freya was like JFET on steroids. I've thought that but haven't said it that way yet. I will be trying some other tubes as time goes by. I'm reminded of what was said on the Schiit site about the original Lyr I think, about why buy it and it was simple: "Have you heard tubes?" Well that's the fun.
  
 Here's another gem from the Schiit site:
 "Why the hell do you need anything that’s fun and exciting in life?​"
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 For me Freya (along with other Schiit gear) has made the financing of tubes more feasible if you want to try. You will always have the JFET.
  
 Of the tubes I have tried, some I had on hand (4 CV-181; 4 Tung Sol; 2Sylvania black plate; the infamous stock tubes) and in various combinations, 4 5692s are simply stunning. It's great to have all the options and a shame the pool is shrinking at the same time.


----------



## belgiangenius

mefaudio said:


> I'll be honest you might have received some bad 5692 tubes because mine are vivid as hell, killer bass for sure and detailed. I have two pair, RCA red base and CBS brown base (both 5692 and both sound good, red base very slightly better).
> 
> Of course it might be different in different systems... I wish I had ken rads to provide a comparison. I do have a NOS closely matched quad RCA vt-231 grey glass from 1945 but to be honest I haven't had the heart to try them (was keeping them as a surprise for when Vidar comes).


 
  
 I think it's unlikely they're bad - although the RCAs have produced a lot of static.  I cleaned the pins and they seem to be slowly settling down, but still static city.
  
 Anyway, I procured the RCA and the CBS from different sources and they sound the same.  Flat and boring - like a transistor.  IMHO, the whole point of the tube mode is for excitement in the sound.  If I want no coloration, I'd switch to JFET mode.


----------



## MefAudio

belgiangenius said:


> I think it's unlikely they're bad - although the RCAs have produced a lot of static.  I cleaned the pins and they seem to be slowly settling down, but still static city.
> 
> Anyway, I procured the RCA and the CBS from different sources and they sound the same.  Flat and boring - like a transistor.  IMHO, the whole point of the tube mode is for excitement in the sound.  If I want no coloration, I'd switch to JFET mode.




Well that is strange but if it sounds boring to you that is true for you. Audio is so personal, everyone hears and perceives differently which is why this hobby is so exciting. The static thing is weird I get no static at all from mine. Who know...

Anyway if you ever decide to let's your 5692s go let me know, I'll sacrifice and take them off your hands LOL


----------



## Ghosthouse

Has there been any discussion of expected lifetime hours for the 6SN7s in a Freya.  I'm curious what a ballpark number might be.  Is gain a more stressful position than buffer so shorter life for tubes there?  
  
 Found this over on the 6SN7 Reference Thread page 7.  Posted by "Skylab" back in 2008.
  
 "From what I have been able to gather, the expectation of a 6SN7 run "normally" is about 5,000-7,000 hours, although it can be longer."


----------



## belgiangenius

belgiangenius said:


> My tube impressions so far, ranked in order of preference:
> 
> 1.  RCA VT-231 grey glass - sweet, sweet midrange, slightly rolled off highs, but DAMN - nice
> 2.  Kenrad VT-231 staggered plates - stunning bass, clear highs - simply awesome, probably tied with #1
> ...


 
  
 After my uninspiring spin with 5692s, I'm trying one more thing just to understand the field of 6SN7:  I ordered a platinum matched quad of new issue Tung-SOL 6SN7GTB from Upscale audio, since they seem to have among the best quality control and matching procedures going.
  
 We'll see how they compare.
  
 Those are guaranteed to be very low noise and highly matched, so hopefully I can be hum and noise free on the single ended outputs of the Freya.


----------



## Jozurr

tonynewman said:


> I have been experimenting with an idea from an audio friend and it has delivered results better than using the Freya direct as a headamp.
> 
> I am using the Freya as a preamp to drive the M9. The M9 is running at 90% gain, the volume control coming from the Freya. So the M9 is acting as a headphone power amp.
> 
> ...


 
  
 That is somewhat something I do with my setup too. I run the Liquid Glass as a tube preamp into the Anthem MCA20 power amp for the HE-6.
  
 How are you using the Freya as a headamp?


----------



## MefAudio

belgiangenius said:


> After my uninspiring spin with 5692s, I'm trying one more thing just to understand the field of 6SN7:  I ordered a platinum matched quad of new issue Tung-SOL 6SN7GTB from Upscale audio, since they seem to have among the best quality control and matching procedures going.
> 
> We'll see how they compare.
> 
> Those are guaranteed to be very low noise and highly matched, so hopefully I can be hum and noise free on the single ended outputs of the Freya.




That is a great idea they are fantastic! Please let us know your impressions.


----------



## mhamel

I might have done a bit of shopping over the past several days...
  
  
 Originally I had picked up a quad of PSVane UK-6SN7 to try out... not impressed.
 I also ordered a quad of the 1960s 68HC from Upscale - which are, to my ears, a big improvement over stock, and what I've been running for a few days now.
  
 Since the end of last week I've ordered:
  

Quad of Tung-Sol re-issues
Quad of 1578s - genuine if everything I've read about identifying them is true.
Quad of 6F8G National Union Round Plate
Pair of early 1943 RCA gray glass 6F8G
Quad of 1947 RCA gray glass 6F8G
Quad of 1943 Ken-Rad 6C8G
Adapters
  
 There's going to be just a bit of rolling ahead...


----------



## Chrispb1

Static, I get this at times. Supprised me at have tiled floor. Seems more to do with what I wear as in I'm generating it and the Freya dumps it to ground.


----------



## Chrispb1

Freya 2 weeks in. Over brightness I observed initially has gone completely. Spent more than a few hours comparing passive/buffered/tube options. I'm very interested that most if not all users seem to prefer the tubes even "out of the box" whilst I find it, well, crude, by comparison to the passive and buffered, which I can hardly, if at all separate. Having lived with a Mcintosh C2500 for the last 4 years I'm used to tubes, in this Mcintosh style and I find the passive/buffered very, very similar to Mcintosh sound with only very subtle differences and for digital 2 channel only I actually prefer the Freya. High praise indeed. That said it's sooo close that if I needed the flexibility of the Mcintosh, I'd choose that as it's a beautiful piece of kit and does everything so well and tube v tube it's Mcintosh all the way. Has anyone started off preferring the Freya passive/buffered (by a significant margin) and then rolled some tubes and genuinely got it to perform better than the passive/buffered. Now that would be interesting. At least with the tubes out it's powered on all the time, bearly gets warm and sounds brilliant from the off, not 20 mins or so down the line.


----------



## bwanaaa

Has anyone heard this next to a backert labs rhumba or rhumba extreme?


----------



## RoundRound

Hello guys,
 I got two matched pairs of NOS Brimar and they sound great. 
 However I think I hear micro phonics - when I change the volume and it clicks... Is that a problem or any issue? Will it get worse? I don't hear it when playing music...
  
 Thanks,


----------



## jseymour

I have a Freya and I think you are hearing the relays in the resistor based volume control. Without playing music adjust the volume know several times and you will hear the clicking in both directions as the relays turn on and off to enable/disable different resistor combinations.  Since 128 (steps of volume) is 8 bits binary, there should be 8 relays.


----------



## RoundRound

jseymour said:


> I have a Freya and I think you are hearing the relays in the resistor based volume control. Without playing music adjust the volume know several times and you will hear the clicking in both directions as the relays turn on and off to enable/disable different resistor combinations.  Since 128 (steps of volume) is 8 bits binary, there should be 8 relays.


 

 Thansk mate, 
 I know how the clicking sounds - with these specific tubes I hear a little 'ring' in addition to the usual clicking... I think it's microphincis no?


----------



## jseymour

I would be surprised if the contacts opening and closing on these very small relays are causing microphonics, but anything is possible.  Do the old tube tap test with a pen or similar device and you should be able to identify if any of your tubes are microphonic.  If they don't ring you may have a problem with the Freya itself.


----------



## TonyNewman

jozurr said:


> ...How are you using the Freya as a headamp?


 
  
 I stopped doing that as I am getting much better results from using the Freya as a preamp to feed the M9. I set the M9 to 90% output - effectively as a fixed power amp - and the Freya does the volume control. This transformed the M9 into a transparent amp with punch and great dynamics. I have no idea why using a preamp would make such a huge difference to the M9 performance, but it does.


----------



## watchnerd

chrispb1 said:


> Static, I get this at times. Supprised me at have tiled floor. Seems more to do with what I wear as in I'm generating it and the Freya dumps it to ground.


 
  
 Are you using the stock tubes?
  
 I had static with the old stock tubes.  Went away when I plonked in new issue Tung Sols.


----------



## Chrispb1

Yes was, now no tubes since thus far prefer without. Can't say I've noticed since as it was only intermittent. Is the sound significantly better with Tung Sols or just different? I found the tube stage just sounded interesting at first maybe more texture but the more I listened and compared it was just a dirty crude sound like a really cheap amp. I really like the open clean spaciousness of the passive and buffered stages that I can't really tell apart. However, technically speaking it's a good match with power amp (Levinson 433) so maybe that helps. Maybe tubes are too much gain.


----------



## watchnerd

> Is the sound significantly better with Tung Sols or just different?


 
  
 In my case, it is objectively better with the Tung Sols.  I'm not talking about audiophile nuances.  My stock tubes degenerated pretty quickly after a few weeks, becoming defective with static (sounded like a bad old LP) and microphonics.  
  
 Schiit was kind enough to send me a 2nd set of stock tubes, which did a little better. If I cherry picked between the two sets I could probably isolate the defective tubes, but it's just easier to listen to the new production Tung Sols.


----------



## rnros

mhamel said:


> I might have done a bit of shopping over the past several days...
> 
> 
> Originally I had picked up a quad of PSVane UK-6SN7 to try out... not impressed.
> ...




Looking forward to your impressions on this group. Nice selection.
I have the 43 Ken Rad 6C8G. Excellent tube. Have a 42 Sylvania 6F8G that is also excellent.
Keep us informed. : )


----------



## RoundRound

I wonder if there is a low gain version of the 6SN7 - and how linear it would be in the Freya?


----------



## theveterans

roundround said:


> I wonder if there is a low gain version of the 6SN7 - and how linear it would be in the Freya?




Buy a Saga. Its gain is unity


----------



## RoundRound

theveterans said:


> Buy a Saga. Its gain is unity


 

 I want to go balanced end to end (Yggy - Freya - ATI 6002)


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

Really liking what I'm hearing with the Freya right now. Speakers only as my interconnects arrive later but Holo Spring Dac (lvl 3) to the Freya to Nakamichi PA7 to Kef 105.2 it's really adding that tube emotion I've missed since going from a tube buffered nos r2r.


----------



## mervinb

chrispb1 said:


> Has anyone started off preferring the Freya passive/buffered (by a significant margin) and then rolled some tubes and genuinely got it to perform better than the passive/buffered. Now that would be interesting.




I had earlier reported the major improvement in sound I perceived over several weeks, listening in Jfet mode. I have just re-installed the stock tubes, and this time the differences are a little different - still obvious in my system, but the tubes seen less constrained in the bass, and overall more "dynamic", although the extra gain makes this a difficult call.

I'm liking the tube section a lot so I'll continue listening, probably for a few weeks before I make call on which to stick with. I suspect that it will be very close, and a new amp on order will lead to another complete revaluation!


----------



## RoundRound

What tubes are you using? 
  
 I have a few matched NOS quads and I struggle to hear an obvious difference to the JFET - on the other hand my Freya had only about 10 days of proper usage...


----------



## mervinb

roundround said:


> What tubes are you using?
> 
> I have a few matched NOS quads and I struggle to hear an obvious difference to the JFET - on the other hand my Freya had only about 10 days of proper usage...



I was using stock tubes. From day one the difference was quite noticeable, but my downstream is pretty revealing, esp. the Phil 3 speakers that easy differentiate amps and source.

Today I swapped them for Tung Sols, and did hear greater detail and more air compared to stock, but also slightly more brightness. It will be very interesting to track the burning in of the tubes and the output caps vs the Jfet buffer, which is still best for bass, but has less interesting imaging / soundstage.


----------



## Chrispb1

Appreciate an ongoing update on the burning in and perceived changes and comparisons with jfet. Thanks


----------



## Alveric

Initial informal reporting on my rather limited Freya tube rolling thus far (all matched pairs on the right hand side):
 1. Early 1960s Sylvania GTB - best overall: smooth, detailed, musical, low noise, flat response; costing 2x new tubes and worth it but not the holy grail I would guess
 2. 1979 Sylvania GTB coin base black plates - less of all those things, but OK, using as the follower tubes, maybe being as cheap as new Tung-Sols, a very good value
 3. New Tung-Sols - very close to 60s Sylvania but slightly less smooth; more comparisons needed to rank properly
 4. Stock Russian: good to compare to others as the poor outlier; gritty in comparison
 5. RCA 5692 Red Base - wish I had not bought these: they chunk out DC and noise for a half hour, sound pretty darn good for a while (best of what I have listed above but only by a little bit), but as soon as I crank the volume they start crackling and sizzling like some others had reported; guess I cannot afford to take more chances on high $$ tubes like these; I am working to have them returned. At low volume I was able to enjoy them for several days but then they just start acting up right when I have time to really listen...we had a power outage and I worried that I would come home to a fried amplifier, but all survived this time anyway.
  
 In summary except for the dangerous RCA red base tubes so far I think they are all good for the price I paid. I would think Schiit should offer the Tung-Sols at $40/pair as an upgrade. The stock Russians might be OK as follower tubes but I have not tried that idea yet. Need a lot more time to really evaluate effects on sound stage and for digital (Yggy) vs. analog (a high-end turntable) sources.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

alveric said:


> 3. New Tung-Sols - very close to 60s Sylvania but slightly less smooth; more comparisons needed to rank properly
> 
> 
> I would think Schiit should offer the Tung-Sols at $40/pair as an upgrade. The stock Russians might be OK as follower tubes but I have not tried that idea yet.


 
 These new Tung-Sol tubes you speak of are the 6SN7GT models?


----------



## Alveric

soundsgoodtome said:


> These new Tung-Sol tubes you speak of are the 6SN7GT models?


 
 Yes.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

Just ordered 4 matched sets with balanced triodes and low noise measurements for $120 including expedited shipping. Not bad


----------



## Alveric

soundsgoodtome said:


> Just ordered 4 matched sets with balanced triodes and low noise measurements for $120 including expedited shipping. Not bad


 
 Great score are you willing to share your source?


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

alveric said:


> Great score are you willing to share your source?


 
  


soundsgoodtome said:


> Just ordered 4 matched sets with balanced triodes and low noise measurements for $120 including expedited shipping. Not bad


 


 Sure, tubedepot: https://tubedepot.com/products/tung-sol-6sn7gt-new-production-preamp-vacuum-tube

 I actually didn't opt for the balanced triodes after reading on it. I did get the low noise and also the matching 4 tubes, $103 shipped (with free shipping). Now that I'm thinking about it, I should've got a 5th one for insurance and to keep the 'matching' aspect in case one goes kaput.


----------



## virtualvoid

Hi, new owner of Freya here. I'm reasonably pleased with the sound so far, please see my comparisons below. But first, I have to get a few complaints off my chest, sorry.
  
*1. The "clicking" volume control.* Actually I knew about this before, but I guess one has to hear it for real. It's much louder than I expected and sounds somewhat "unhealthy" to me. Kind of static electricity discharging, crackling and sparkling, or like unkown alien noises in a sci-fi movie, if that makes any sense, lol. Well, I guess nothing to do about that, but I wish I had known about the actual impact before.
*2. Rattling buttons and badly sitting LEDs.* After disassembling the unit I know why this is and I feel the whole assembly of the case should have been done differently. It's a real pain to put together perfectly and at least for me, it was far from perfect factory-wise. Turning the volume pot also feels somewhat cheap and the knob itself is scratched badly on one whole side. Things like that shouldn't happen and makes me wonder about quality control. Oh, and the LEDs are far too bright!
  
 Ok, enough, if the sound delivers, I might be able to overlook everything else. Currently I'm fooling around with the different output options as they're hard to compare exactly. Just switching doesn't work because of significant volume differences, so I went through another preamp with individual fixed volume inputs, lining up the levels as closely as possible. Of course this takes the other pre into the equation, but it doesn't change and at least makes it possible to directly compare with equal sound leves.
  
 Here are my preliminary impressions with hardly any burn-in at all:
*- PASSIVE:* (Note: Slightly lower in level than JFET, I'd thought both were unity gain?! Might be the cause why most here prefer JFET over PASSIVE when directly switching on Freya!)
 To me, it actually sounds quite good when directly compared at an equal level. A bit more natural, brighter with slightly less meat in the lower freqs. This makes it sound a tad thinner, maybe more analytical, but I'd say it's closer to the "truth". Very detailed and open, no colorations noticeable. I have no complaints really.
*- JFET:* Somewhat darker and a little more restrained, especially in the treble. Sometimes even a little bloated and I think I prefer PASSIVE at this stage. The difference is not all that great however, they're fairly simliar overall and the differences might all be due to lacking burn-in of JFET...
*- TUBES (stock):* Well, tube "magic" can be found, but in comparison to the other two modes I just find it lacking in the lower freqs. The rest is ok, more prominent mids, sounding quite nice overall with a distinct tonal character. I'm actually pleasently surprised after reading numerous times how bad the stock tubes are. Maybe I was lucky, also no hum/crackling/whatever yet, they're working just fine. But well, I do prefer the clarity of passive mode.
  
 As a second step, I'm running the Freya against the other preamp. To do that, I went into a mechanical switch from both pre's RCA-outputs, so I can switch them directly with one turn of a knob. The only way to really compare imo. Again, levels were matched accurately, both fed with identical signals from my DAC.
*- JFET vs. other:* "Other" sounds slightly more full bodied overall, especially noticeable in the lower regions. It's more boomy, with a tendency to muddle the sound a little. This competes with the slimmer represantation of JFET. Obvious is that JFET delivers a slightly more forward presentation, with more dominant midrange, better clarity and marginally better seperation overall. I'd call it more analytical, definitely brighter. It's a close call which one I like better to be honest, but it's all very close anyway. This I consider good!
*- PASSIVE vs. other:* Well, the same tonal differences still exist, but PASSIVE just doesn't deliver this time. I'm missing punch and notice a general lack of dynamics. Sounds flat and without power (exaggerated). I clearly prefer the other in this scenario. But I think it might all be because of my rather long and messy wiring, with the switching device inbetween. Maybe such a setup just doesn't work out very well for pure passive attenuation. I guess it has to be the case here, because when directly comparing JFET vs. PASSIVE, I hadn't noticed any lack of dynamics.
*- stock TUBES vs. other: *Surprisingly these two sound more alike than JFET/PASSIVE vs other. Maybe it's the overall darker sound from the tubes. The outstanding clarity is gone, more recessed and laid-back. Mids do have a little sweetness to them, but esp. low bass is noticeably rolled off. Sounds full and rich though, going into the slightly mushy direction of its contender, just lower in level. I do prefer my other over this however. It sounds more balanced over the whole spectrum, more uniform and consistent. These tubes give me a slight impression of disjointness, if you know what I mean. Soundstage might also be a little narrower. But don't get me wrong, it's not bad at all and can be quite enjoyable, depending on the music material. It does have the "tube sound", together with common shortcomings.
  
 (In case you're wondering what my "other" is: It's a slightly modded Rotel RC-1570 preamp, which I really came to like over the last few years, despite seeing other devices come and go. I think it's quite good and I've used it to compare numerous other stuff, always finding it to be honest and transparent, with no issues whatsoever.)
  
 So yay, what to do now... Ah, order some nicer tubes. But I'll state it again: Stock tubes aren't bad at all. Having read here, it seems some people got unlucky, but mine are really fine so far and I'd expect them to improve with more burn-in. They're a nice alternative to the somewhat brighter/slimmer sounding JFET buffer for sure. Depending on one's other equipment, I'd suspect for some people even the stock tubes could be a better match than JFET/PASSIVE...
  
 So how about a little modding? I had a look inside, very nice and clean. But maybe change those standard Nichicon caps? Which ones would be relevant? Any clues? Thanks!


----------



## founded

virtualvoid said:


> Hi, new owner of Freya here. I'm reasonably pleased with the sound so far, please see my comparisons below. But first, I have to get a few complaints off my chest, sorry.
> 
> *1. The "clicking" volume control.* Actually I knew about this before, but I guess one has to hear it for real. It's much louder than I expected and sounds somewhat "unhealthy" to me. Kind of static electricity discharging, crackling and sparkling, or like unkown alien noises in a sci-fi movie, if that makes any sense, lol. Well, I guess nothing to do about that, but I wish I had known about the actual impact before.
> *2. Rattling buttons and badly sitting LEDs.* After disassembling the unit I know why this is and I feel the whole assembly of the case should have been done differently. It's a real pain to put together perfectly and at least for me, it was far from perfect factory-wise. Turning the volume pot also feels somewhat cheap and the knob itself is scratched badly on one whole side. Things like that shouldn't happen and makes me wonder about quality control. Oh, and the LEDs are far too bright!
> ...


 
 What a nice thorough post we have above. The interior photos are especially appreciated.
  
 However, I would like to respond to some of your statements. First, the clicking volume control on my unit has none of the issues you mention whatsoever. In fact, I rather like the feedback. Perhaps, as with many stock tube users, you have a somewhat defective unit. And additionally, if you are getting fuzz through your speakers on volume change, maybe you have extremely high sensitivity speakers. As regards your case comments, some of those issues have been addressed by the company principals. The bright leds are there to save stupid costs and it bothers me not one iota. The two piece case is a brilliant solution to another stupid cost: the major expenditure in the high end being nonsense enclosures. Again, to note previous company principal comments, yes there are led alignment issues. Perhaps you got a Monday morning unit, but my unit displays no such issue.
  
 Personally, I immediately rejected the passive, unbuffered mode. Part of what we are dealing with there is the match between preamp and power amp. For every user, this is a different equation dependent on power amp input characteristics. For me, the JFET buffered passive is ideal. I find no brightness whatsover with circa 150 hours on my unit.
  
 O, my control buttons have no slop. As a final comment may I state that originally I assumed the company principals were nut cases based on the corporate name. However, actual ownership has changed my tune: the future of audio is the low end of the high end. Those principals have my attention.


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## Soundsgoodtome

The clicking on the volume control is quite normal with high end gear. The build is solid although the looks could've been better imo, the two piece coming together doesn't flow that well. The buttons on mine are loose as well, mean if you put a finger on it (without pressing) and wiggle it around it shakes and makes a noise. Now why you would do this while the unit is being use, not sure. Doesn't bother me as much long as the thing doesn't fall apart anytime the next few years.


----------



## virtualvoid

founded said:


> However, I would like to respond to some of your statements. First, the clicking volume control on my unit has none of the issues you mention whatsoever. In fact, I rather like the feedback. Perhaps, as with many stock tube users, you have a somewhat defective unit. And additionally, if you are getting fuzz through your speakers on volume change, maybe you have extremely high sensitivity speakers. As regards your case comments, some of those issues have been addressed by the company principals. The bright leds are there to save stupid costs and it bothers me not one iota. The two piece case is a brilliant solution to another stupid cost: the major expenditure in the high end being nonsense enclosures. Again, to note previous company principal comments, yes there are led alignment issues. Perhaps you got a Monday morning unit, but my unit displays no such issue.


 
  
 Maybe I wasn't clear regarding the "volume clicking". There's no noise or anything coming from my speakers, it's just the switching noise from multiple relays operated at once (I guess). I'm pretty sure it's working as designed and that it's not some Monday morning issue.
  


soundsgoodtome said:


> The clicking on the volume control is quite normal with high end gear. The build is solid although the looks could've been better imo, the two piece coming together doesn't flow that well. The buttons on mine are loose as well, mean if you put a finger on it (without pressing) and wiggle it around it shakes and makes a noise. Now why you would do this while the unit is being use, not sure. Doesn't bother me as much long as the thing doesn't fall apart anytime the next few years.


 
  
 I've heard other gear clicking as well, but never has it sounded so strange (and loud!) to me. But ok, I'm slowly getting used to it I guess. And it's not that important, I just wanted it to point out for others.
  
 Let's focus on the sound instead!


----------



## Chrispb1

Great post. Entirely representative of my experience. Though I'll add sound improved significantly after about three weeks. Preferring passive, I took the tubes out for about a week leaving it powered on. Then I read in these pages that someone had done similar and had then tried the tubes again and the sound had improved, so I followed and low and behold I now prefer the tubes on all music program. I like to understand why this should be but my initial observations of a slightly crude sound, kinda dirty, for want of a better word, are no longer valid. I'm now looking forward to some tube rolling, but whilst I don't mind spending say upto £250 I don't want to waste money finding the best performance per £. The Psvane's look lovely but could be an expensive mistake . Tung Sols new models seem to have consistent good reviews. Also can anyone confirm if I could for example put the more expensive psvane tubes in the gain only leaving stock in the followers. Thanks


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## Soundsgoodtome

You can turn on/use the freya without tubes installed?


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## theveterans

soundsgoodtome said:


> You can turn on/use the freya without tubes installed?


 
  
 Yep. You won't get sound when you switch to tube mode though. JFET and passive works fine without tubes.


----------



## ToddRaymond

And also, I'm assuming if you're using the balanced output, with no tubes installed, that any of your single-ended inputs won't get converted to balanced through either passive or JFET modes?


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## Chrispb1

Ok enough pontificating. Have ordered a pair of Psvane cv 181 mk11. Direct from Hong Kong On eBay. It was these or New Tung Sol at £40 a pair. Spent the extra as from experience if I got the Tung Sol's and they were an improvement I'd have had to get the Psvane's anyway. and whilst the £112 isn't cheap, it is a very small amount relative to the system. It's cheap compared to some NOS and I've not managed to find a bad word on them. I'll use them on the gain side and then ask how much of an advantage there is in getting another pair for the followers. Will report later.


----------



## virtualvoid

I've just ordered a matched and balanced pair of new Tung-Sols for the gain stage. 
  
 Now I'm unsure what to do for the buffer stage. I'm thinking they shouldn't have that much an effect on the sound, as long as they're technically ok. I can be wrong however. What are others experiences with the buffer stage? What would be a sensible recommendation for these?
  
 In my opinion it just doesn't make much sense to buy tubes for half the price of the unit itself. The relation just isn't right, it's crazy. 
 At least I cannot justify it for myself. And also, tubes are a wearing part and would have to be replaced sooner or later. What help are super scarce NOS tubes in this context...
  
 EDIT: Oh well, these Psvane tubes look sweet. Very tempting. I could use the Tung-Sols in the buffer... 
 But what are the different versions of the Psvane 6sn7? I think I've seen 3 different models...


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## Soundsgoodtome

Gain stage is the rear 2 tubes? Or left 2 tubes? (When facing the Freya)


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## JohnnyCanuck

From the Schiit website:
  
 Freya accommodates any 6SN7, 6N8S, or 5692 tube type. 6SL7, 6N9S, and equivalent types also work, but will have higher distortion and higher output impedance.
  
 If you’re curious, the right tubes are for the differential voltage gain stage. The left tubes are for the cathode follower output stage. All tubes are of the same type on Freya.


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## RoundRound

I thought someone mentioned earlier in this thread that one model of Psvane wouldn't fit in the Freya because of their unusual shape...


----------



## virtualvoid

virtualvoid said:


> EDIT: Oh well, these Psvane tubes look sweet. Very tempting. I could use the Tung-Sols in the buffer...  But what are the different versions of the Psvane 6sn7? I think I've seen 3 different models...


 

 So I've been doing my homework regarding Psvane tubes. Here's what I've learned:
  
 Current:
 o Psvane CV181-TII: Top model, grey glass. Said to be more linear than older version. Normal 6sn7 base, it's going to fit (according to website).
 o Psvane CV181-Z: Re-Issue of former Shuguang Treasure CV181-Z, black glass. Don't know if any sonic difference is to be expected.
o Psvane Hifi UK-6SN7: Much cheaper version with different matrials, clear glass. From the website: "However, as these are generic tubes with only limited quality control from factory, quality of tubes on the market really varies." ​These are the ones one guy here tried and he wasn't very enthusiastic about them, if I remember correctly.
  
 Outdated, but still obtainable through various sources:
 o Psvane CV181-T: Predecessor​ to current top of the line, black glass. Had raving reviews mostly, said to be a little more lush-sounding than TII and can be had for discounts now. Wouldn't it be for the base-diameter issue, these are the ones I'd like to try...
 o Shuguang Treasure CV181-Z: The original Treasure, generally rated very good, from what I've read. Said to be more NOS-sounded than Psvane. Can be had relatively cheap from ebay, but quality/matching is unknown.
  
 All except the most recent TII-version have 35mm base diameter, which won't fit into Freya directly and would have to be mounted on socket extenders!
 For me this rules them all out. So... TII it would have to be. Sonically it's said to be the best anyway, but also the most expensive. And I mean very expensive...
  
 Another issue is that all CV181 come in 2 (?) different quality grades. For current TII it is "Classic" and "Collection". The problem is you can't tell from the tubes itself, the only visible difference is in the packaging (how stupid!). This makes it unclear when buying from untrusted sellers imo. For example these ebay HK-seller don't list the grade at all...


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## IndieGradoFan

virtualvoid said:


> So I've been doing my homework regarding Psvane tubes. Here's what I've learned:
> 
> Current:
> o Psvane CV181-TII: Top model, grey glass. Said to be more linear than older version. Normal 6sn7 base, it's going to fit (according to website).
> ...


 

 I own both the Shuguang Treasure CV181-Z and the Psvane CV181-TII. Your observations are correct -- the TIIs fit fine but the CV181-Zs do not. Note that you can't fully seat the TII in the socket unless you use a saver, but you can seat it more than enough to work & be safe. I'm currently using the CV181-TII in the gain position and Sophia Electric 6SN7s in the follower position.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

Based on these two posts, I now have 2 Psvanes cv181t2 coming in as well as tube savers. So in a span of a few days I'm already about $300 in the hole on tubes. Jeezus what rabbit hole. I shall stop here.

Idea is Psvane in the gain stage and tung-sol in the buffer.

So now i find myself with one too many Tung-Sols..*Anyone want to buy a matched pair of Tungsol 6sn7gt then?*



virtualvoid said:


> I've just ordered a matched and balanced pair of new Tung-Sols for the gain stage.
> 
> Now I'm unsure what to do for the buffer stage. I'm thinking they shouldn't have that much an effect on the sound, as long as they're technically ok. I can be wrong however. What are others experiences with the buffer stage? What would be a sensible recommendation for these?
> 
> ...







indiegradofan said:


> I own both the Shuguang Treasure CV181-Z and the Psvane CV181-TII. Your observations are correct -- the TIIs fit fine but the CV181-Zs do not. Note that you can't fully seat the TII in the socket unless you use a saver, but you can seat it more than enough to work & be safe. I'm currently using the CV181-TII in the gain position and Sophia Electric 6SN7s in the follower position.


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## mervinb

chrispb1 said:


> Appreciate an ongoing update on the burning in and perceived changes and comparisons with jfet. Thanks



The Tung Sols have been removed for now, and I'm listening exclusively with the Jfet buffer.

I was loaned a really nice Pass Aleph 0s, which has really sweet treble and match my speakers well. The tube section takes away more from the bass than it adds in other areas than I like. OTOH the Jfet section matches the Aleph well. YMMV


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## Chrispb1

Mervinb, Thanks for update, interesting I've gone the other way, I now like the tube section so much, I've order a pair Psvanes cv181's. It was those or the Tung sols. You going to keep the Pass?


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## virtualvoid

indiegradofan said:


> I own both the Shuguang Treasure CV181-Z and the Psvane CV181-TII. Your observations are correct -- the TIIs fit fine but the CV181-Zs do not. Note that you can't fully seat the TII in the socket unless you use a saver, but you can seat it more than enough to work & be safe. I'm currently using the CV181-TII in the gain position and Sophia Electric 6SN7s in the follower position.


 
  
 Now that's interesting! May I ask if you have compared the CV181-TII in gain stage against high quality NOS tubes? What were your impressions? Is CV181-TII really worth it?
 And have you experimented with lower quality tubes in the buffer? The Sophias should be somewhat overkill I'm thinking...
  
 Update regarding the fitting issue: I think the older CV181-T should also fit without extenders. I've found some spec stating 31mm base diameter, which would be ok.


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## belgiangenius

I'm also curious to hear impressions of these PSVANES.
  
 I tried some PSVANE 12AU7/AT7 in a DAC once and they really, really, really, really sucked hard.
  
 So I wouldn't go near anything of theirs with a 2000 foot poll unless I see compelling reviews here.


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## wolfgango

Hello. New member here. Have owned the Freya for about 3 weeks and notice that no one has mentioned using the Shuguang 6SN7 still available from Tubestore in Canada. These sound better to me than the stock tubes and the reissue Tung Sols. I actually preferred the stock tubes to the Tung Sols but the ones that shipped with the unit were quite microphonic and noisy. They sent me a replacement pair but I haven't tried them yet as I think the Shuguangs sound glorious (clean and spacious) and have no desire to swap them at this point.
  
 It took about 50 hours for the Freya to open up and not sound congested in tube buffer mode and am glad Schiit has offered a 6SN7 preamp that's so affordable. Have wanted one for years but prices were beyond what I wanted to spend.


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## hornytoad

wolfgango said:


> Hello. New member here. Have owned the Freya for about 3 weeks and notice that no one has mentioned using the Shuguang 6SN7 still available from Tubestore in Canada. These sound better to me than the stock tubes and the reissue Tung Sols. I actually preferred the stock tubes to the Tung Sols but the ones that shipped with the unit were quite microphonic and noisy. They sent me a replacement pair but I haven't tried them yet as I think the Shuguangs sound glorious (clean and spacious) and have no desire to swap them at this point.
> 
> It took about 50 hours for the Freya to open up and not sound congested in tube buffer mode and am glad Schiit has offered a 6SN7 preamp that's so affordable. Have wanted one for years but prices were beyond what I wanted to spend.


 
 Really, you preferred the stock tubes over the Tung Sol's ? You must have received some bad ones. 
  
 I compared both and the stock tubes are not even close .


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## KoshNaranek

hornytoad said:


> Really, you preferred the stock tubes over the Tung Sol's ? You must have received some bad ones.
> 
> I compared both and the stock tubes are not even close .




Some people like the warmth of the stock tubes. Personally, I think people have been too harsh on the stock tubes. They are very listenable and it is only by comparison to other tubes where I feel the superiority of the Tung-Sol and RCA comes out.


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## Soundsgoodtome

Jeez this thread, did i just drop $$300 on tubes for no reason now? Got 4 tung sols and 2 Psvanes coming in as well socket savers.


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## KoshNaranek

soundsgoodtome said:


> Jeez this thread, did i just drop $$300 on tubes for no reason now? Got 4 tung sols and 2 Psvanes coming in as well socket savers.




Welcome to the club. Sorry about your wallet.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

Well i prefer warm and smooth but now we're saying the stock tubes are warm..


----------



## MefAudio

Has anyone been able to compare a matched quad Tung Sol new production to a matched quad Psvanes TII? I have 10 Tung Sols at this point and plan on getting more, I've been very impressed. If the Psvanes are better I'm willing to give them a try but because they are expensive I don't want to fly blind. Also in my opinion it does sound better to have a matched quad rather than a pair in the input buffers and something else in the outputs.


----------



## Pandahead

soundsgoodtome said:


> Jeez this thread, did i just drop $$300 on tubes for no reason now? Got 4 tung sols and 2 Psvanes coming in as well socket savers.


 
 Not a waste. I've had 2 Psvane Tlls before Freya. In fact there's a pic of them as followers with 5692s as inputs posted somewhere here or on Jason's thread shortly after I got one of the first Freyas. I find them detailed, a little bass shy, for me "neutral" and perfectly quiet so figured they would just stay out of the way as followers while I experimented (before rounding up 4 5692s for instance). I also got a matched quad of Tung Sols. With that at least you know what new production sounds like. In my system I'm still debating between 5692s and 1952 Sylvania "bad boys" as to which gets top honors. The sound stage is bigger, more dynamic, instruments more tightly focused with wonderful tonalities compared to the afore mentioned tubes. The difference in my system is not subtle. When Mike Moffat said 6SN7s have to be heard to be believed this must be what he was referring to. I have a pair of RCA VT231 grey glass and they are very lush to choose just one word. They do not have the imaging and detail. I wouldn't have known unless I tried. That's my experience so far. As always people hear things differently. 'The Reference 6SN7 Thread' is definitely worth referring to. As far as the stock tubes go, a couple of the them were so noisy that it wasn't worth trying to identify the culprits so I just put them back in their box.


----------



## Jozurr

I'm not sure why $$$ are being dropped for tubes like Shuguangs and new issue tung sols. Normal 6SN7 tube rolling applies here. Head over to the 6SN7 thread. There are some very good value NOS tubes that can be had for cheap and are easily better than new issues. Tubes like Hytron 6SN7GT, Tung Sol Mouse Ears, Sylvania 6SN7WGT, RCA VT-231, Ken-Rad VT-231, depending on the kind of sound you want, and the headphones/speakers you'll be using. All very good tubes and most of them can be had between $50-$100. Yes you need to spend some time to find reliable/dealers and sellers and hunt some deals down. You can only buy the driver tubes and not the trailing ones, as the trailing tubes will have limited effect on sound. The new issues are not as good as the NOS tubes. I think one of the few new issue tubes that are regarded well are the CV181Z by Shuguang Treasure, but Im not sure they run/fit the Freya.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

I feel very lucky, my stock tubes are very quiet even when used to send the Freya to the Rag/hd800. To me the stock tubes have a hint of tube syrup but still staying true... I'd like to get more syrup if possible but without sacrificing details and air. 

I'll refer to the 6sn7 thread and hide the wallet until the tung sol and psvanes arrives.


----------



## watchnerd

jozurr said:


> All very good tubes and most of them can be had between $50-$100.


 
  
 I didn't pay even close to that for my new issue Tung Sols.  I paid $21.95 each for a matching set of 4.


----------



## Jozurr

watchnerd said:


> I didn't pay even close to that for my new issue Tung Sols.  I paid $21.95 each for a matching set of 4.




Yes I meant those prices for pairs. Some good tubes can be had for $40-$50.


----------



## RoundRound

So do we all agree that it's only the gain tubes that have a real effect on the sound and the follower tubes can be negated to cheap/cheerful ones?
  
 Thanks,


----------



## Chrispb1

That's just what I'd like to know from those who've tried various options. E.g. My Psvane cv181 ii, , when they arrive from HK and keep the stock on the followers. Thanks in advance.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

I will be able to test this between stock and tungsols. I will use all tung sols vs tung sol only on the gain stage (right two tubes when facing the amp) followed by stock. Hopefully I find the latter just as much of a sq gain as all four tung sol tubes, meaning it's really the gain stage that affects sound.

If not I'll be needing to buy another set of psvanes *sigh


----------



## US Blues

roundround said:


> So do we all agree that it's only the gain tubes that have a real effect on the sound and the follower tubes can be negated to cheap/cheerful ones?
> 
> Thanks,


 

 Just buy a matched quad of Tung Sols an enjoy your music collection.


----------



## RoundRound

us blues said:


> Just buy a matched quad of Tung Sols an enjoy your music collection.


 
  
 Too late for me, 
 While I did get a matched quad of the new Tang Sols I also have a small collections of NOS tubes which I greatly enjoy - e.g a matched quad of Sylvania WGTA 66', or a pair of black base RCA. some of the more exotic I have only a pair of, so I play with two matched (but different tube models) between the gain and follower positions. 
  
 So far I'd say that the gain pair is responsible for about 70% of the sound and the follower the other 30%. I think this is the case because swapping the pairs makes noticeable changes to the sound, IMO. 
  
 I'm interested in other people's experiences,


----------



## KoshNaranek

us blues said:


> Just buy a matched quad of Tung Sols an enjoy your music collection.




Yes


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

What are the effects on using the freya tube mode on an active sub?


----------



## bigro

roundround said:


> So do we all agree that it's only the gain tubes that have a real effect on the sound and the follower tubes can be negated to cheap/cheerful ones?
> 
> Thanks,


 
 I thought this was the case and ran a pair of RCA Base 6SN7GT with the stocks tubes as followers. I was curious and swapped them out with some GE 6SN7GTB Coin base tubes which I did not care for on the input. I was surprised that that was a noticeable difference. It was not huge but a step in the right direction. The stocks to me seemed very dull in comparison. I agree with roundround here the inputs definitely have a bigger impact on sound but the followers have some as well.


soundsgoodtome said:


> What are the effects on using the freya tube mode on an active sub?


 
 I am note sure what you mean by this. It is a Pre amp, It does not know the difference between an Active Sub, Active speaker or Power Amp. as long as its Input specs match the freyas output all should be well. I use an Active sub sometimes with the freya and it works no different than any other pre amp.
  
  
 I am Currently Giving some Sylvania Chrome Dome 6SN7GTB's some time to burn in and Then a pair of Foton 6N8S's as well.


----------



## Synergist969

So, how many of you out there, (if any),  are actively attempting to try various combinations of gain tubes and follower tubes, in order to generate a more specific sound signature/pleasing sound...a bit of a "hybrid" analogy I guess...
  
 Also, wondering if any of the "modders" out there have attempted to determine if there is a way to create a circuit/switch(?) so that one could power-down the tube section when one desires to run Freya in non-tube mode, but does not want to "use-up" those tubes, or have to remove them...?...a circuit that would not adversely affect the sound quality of course...


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

Sorry i should ask more in terms of what the tubes do to the signal in terms of active subwoofer performance vs say passive or direct from a fixed line out of the dac.

Does the tube make the bass sound more bloomy? Will it sound the same as solid state?



soundsgoodtome said:


> What are the effects on using the freya tube mode on an active sub?







bigro said:


> I input. I was surprised that that was a noticeable difference. It was not huge but a step in the right s as well.


----------



## RoundRound

soundsgoodtome said:


> Sorry i should ask more in terms of what the tubes do to the signal in terms of active subwoofer performance vs say passive or direct from a fixed line out of the dac.
> 
> Does the tube make the bass sound more bloomy? Will it sound the same as solid state?


 

 I noticed a small issue, when connecting the main speakers amp via balanced out and the sub via the single ended makes the sub volume lower (because of the 6dB gain on the balanced outs) - not a big deal, just need to increase the volume on the sub a little. 
  
 I also noticed that with the tubes the bass does sound a little muddy than before (my REL S/3 was connected to the Yggy's outs) but the overall sonic benefits of tubes are worth it, I think. As with any sub it needs to be EQed to fit the speakers and room.


----------



## Chrispb1

Active sub works fine with Freya. Just connect as you would to a power amp. I use a monitor audio gsw12 and should take delivery of SVS SB ULTRA 16 next week.


----------



## Pandahead

roundround said:


> Too late for me,
> While I did get a matched quad of the new Tang Sols I also have a small collections of NOS tubes which I greatly enjoy - e.g a matched quad of Sylvania WGTA 66', or a pair of black base RCA. some of the more exotic I have only a pair of, so I play with two matched (but different tube models) between the gain and follower positions.
> 
> So far I'd say that the gain pair is responsible for about 70% of the sound and the follower the other 30%. I think this is the case because swapping the pairs makes noticeable changes to the sound, IMO.
> ...


 
  
 I have found a quad is best, but putting a pair in the input position tells what you want to know. I got a pair of used Tung Sol "mouse ears". Fantastic, put them in front of RCA 5692, but the white noise hiss was just enough to trigger the memory of cassette tape. Tracked down another used pair said to be quiet, and they were. Put them as gain and the other as followers and the outstanding imaging improved even more. Whatever I have quads of is best, which stands to reason. The used "mouse ears" take a new matched quad of Tung Sols to school! It is not subtle. But that's just my hearing. I spent $115.00 on the 4. If you want outstanding detailed focused imaging and if your system could use a little tweak in the top end they are worth a try if you enjoy that kind of thing. Mike's comment a while back put me on the hunt for some. Having said that see below....
  


synergist969 said:


> So, how many of you out there, (if any),  are actively attempting to try various combinations of gain tubes and follower tubes, in order to generate a more specific sound signature/pleasing sound...a bit of a "hybrid" analogy I guess...
> 
> Also, wondering if any of the "modders" out there have attempted to determine if there is a way to create a circuit/switch(?) so that one could power-down the tube section when one desires to run Freya in non-tube mode, but does not want to "use-up" those tubes, or have to remove them...?...a circuit that would not adversely affect the sound quality of course...


 
 Right now I have a pair of Sylvania "1952 bad boys" in front of the RCA 5692 and it's added to the depth of the sound stage, images are just as focused and detailed yet there's a tonal sweetness now. Best I can describe for what it's worth. I will eventually get another pair and see if it gets even better with 4 or not. For me it's better than 4 "mouse ears", and improves what I like about 4 5692s. The Reference 6SN7 Thread has been invaluable tracking some of this stuff down.


----------



## MefAudio

roundround said:


> So do we all agree that it's only the gain tubes that have a real effect on the sound and the follower tubes can be negated to cheap/cheerful ones?
> 
> Thanks,




For me I can tell a noticeable difference with the output stage loaded with poor tubes. Moving forward I'm going to purchasing either matched quads or two matched pairs.


----------



## brad1138

Just got mine, Sounds very good so far


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

I got the tung sol loaded into the freya. Initial impressions are more musicality but i feel maybe a little loss in the detail dept over stock. Then again the tubes are brand new and 15m hot from cold.. So too early to tell.





----sub sub sub sub sub----

Thanks for the replies gents. I think for now I will get used to the system first and get the tube selection done. Once I've done that and gotten well acquainted, I'll tackle the sub idea. Right now it's fine with the KEF 105.2 but a little bit of bass on certain genres never hurt anyone.

7





roundround said:


> I noticed a small issue, when connecting the main speakers amp via balanced out and the sub via the single ended makes the sub volume lower (because of the 6dB gain on the balanced outs) - not a big deal, just need to increase the volume on the sub a little.
> 
> I also noticed that with the tubes the bass does sound a little muddy than before (my REL S/3 was connected to the Yggy's outs) but the overall sonic benefits of tubes are worth it, I think. As with any sub it needs to be EQed to fit the speakers and room.







chrispb1 said:


> Active sub works fine with Freya. Just connect as you would to a power amp. I use a monitor audio gsw12 and should take delivery of SVS SB ULTRA 16 next week.


----------



## Synergist969

Well...I just broke down a couple of hours ago and ordered the Freya preamp...with overnight shipping no less!...lol...    ...
  
 So, all I can say is "come on LISST 6SN7 "Tubes"!"...  I know that it was pointed out to me buy another Head-fi participant that Schiit Audio had written that they were coming...however, in the meantime...yes, I will start with the stock tubes to establish a base-line...and then will in all likelihood go with a matched-quad of the new Tung Sol 6SN7's...and wondering what website distributors/sellers are recommended...IS there a preferred website distributor/seller?...in terms of tube matching?...
  
 Oh, and at least one of the website indicates that one can also select for "high-output", and "low-noise"...?...May I assume low noise is a real benefit?...and, regarding the higher output, these being pre-amplifier tubes, does THAT parameter matter...?...
  
 I look forward to lots of my own soul searching/ "agonizing" over all of this...lol...However, I do invite input from those of you out there who have already been bitten by the Freya bug.
  
 Oh, and exactly what kind and where would I seek socket extenders, so that I can easily extract tubes when I don't want to "use them up" when I want to use it for background music...?...


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

Someone tell me again what LISST stands for?


----------



## Synergist969

The "LISST", (linear, integrated solid-state tube), "tubes" are the solid-state cylindrical "tubes" that Schiit Audio designed(?), obtain and sell as replacement solid-state "tubes" for the Lyr/Lyr 2, headphone amplifier, as well as at least one other...


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

Is there a reason to use those over the solid state section of the freya?


----------



## Synergist969

It is my understanding that in order to convert single-ended inputs/signal sources to balanced outputs out of Freya requires the use of the "tube" section...HOWEVER, balanced inputs/signal sources do NOT require the use of the "tube" section to output in balanced mode...


----------



## Synergist969

Also, since the tube section cannot be powered down while Freya is powered up/running in a different mode, vacuum tubes, which DO have a relatively finite life-span, will be "used" even though they are not being heard...and the LISST would allow one to listen in the passive or J-FET buffered modes without shortening a vacuum tube lifespan as the LISST "tubes" have the life span of well...solid-state devices...    ...
  
 Besides, my understanding is that the tube section currently has a higher gain level than the buffered section...if that is a need...


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

Makes sense, good info here. 



synergist969 said:


> Also, since the tube section cannot be powered down while Freya is powered up/running in a different mode, vacuum tubes, which DO have a relatively finite life-span, will be "used" even though they are not being heard...and the LISST would allow one to listen in the passive or J-FET buffered modes without shortening a vacuum tube lifespan as the LISST "tubes" have the life span of well...solid-state devices...    ...
> 
> Besides, my understanding is that the tube section currently has a higher gain level than the buffered section...if that is a need...







synergist969 said:


> It is my understanding that in order to convert single-ended inputs/signal sources to balanced outputs out of Freya requires the use of the "tube" section...HOWEVER, balanced inputs/signal sources do NOT require the use of the "tube" section to output in balanced mode...


----------



## Jozurr

synergist969 said:


> Also, since the tube section cannot be powered down while Freya is powered up/running in a different mode, vacuum tubes, which DO have a relatively finite life-span, will be "used" even though they are not being heard...and the LISST would allow one to listen in the passive or J-FET buffered modes without shortening a vacuum tube lifespan as the LISST "tubes" have the life span of well...solid-state devices...    ...
> 
> Besides, my understanding is that the tube section currently has a higher gain level than the buffered section...if that is a need...


 
  
 Why not just remove the tubes when not using them?


----------



## Chrispb1

Whilst it's ok to remove the tubes. I've read they should ideally be pulled by their bases as there is a risk of separating the glass from the base regardless of tube quality. Of course you can't get at their bases in the Freya. So be very gentle.


----------



## Synergist969

OK,...since I have pulled the trigger on the Freya order...expecting it to be delivered sometime next week...  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  ...while in tube-mode I anticipate initially listening with the stock tubes to establish a baseline...and perhaps then move on to the generally well accepted new manufacture Tung Sol 6SN7 tubes...SO...
  
 1. What are recommendations regarding good/reliable website-based sellers of the Tung Sol 6SN7 vacuum tubes?
  
 2. What tube parameters should be selected for a matched quad...how closely should they be matched?...What about other matching options...low noise...?...high output...?...etc...?...
  
 3. In order to ease the stress on both the tubes as well as the tube sockets with the possible periodic if not frequent extraction/reinsertion of the vacuum tubes, I might like socket savers/extenders(?) to place in the Freya tube sockets, exactly what do I purchase, and from where?...recommendations please?...Are they all the same, or are some better made than others? 
  
 4. Can more than one socket saver/extender be stacked in order to have easy access to the base of the tube, or does that adversely affect the function/sound quality of the tube?
  
 Thank you in advance for your input/assistance!


----------



## watchnerd

chrispb1 said:


> Whilst it's ok to remove the tubes. I've read they should ideally be pulled by their bases as there is a risk of separating the glass from the base regardless of tube quality. Of course you can't get at their bases in the Freya.


 
  
 Not a problem if you own a set of tube extractors:


----------



## Synergist969

BUMP
  
 OK,...since I have pulled the trigger on the Freya order...expecting it to be delivered sometime next week...  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  ...while in tube-mode I anticipate initially listening with the stock tubes to establish a baseline...and perhaps then move on to the generally well accepted new manufacture Tung Sol 6SN7 tubes...SO...
  
 1. What are recommendations regarding good/reliable website-based sellers of the Tung Sol 6SN7 vacuum tubes?
  
 2. What tube parameters should be selected for a matched quad...how closely should they be matched?...What about other matching options...low noise...?...high output...?...etc...?...
  
 3. In order to ease the stress on both the tubes as well as the tube sockets with the possible periodic if not frequent extraction/reinsertion of the vacuum tubes, I might like socket savers/extenders(?) to place in the Freya tube sockets, exactly what do I purchase, and from where?...recommendations please?...Are they all the same, or are some better made than others? 
  
 4. Can more than one socket saver/extender be stacked in order to have easy access to the base of the tube, or does that adversely affect the function/sound quality of the tube?
  
 Thank you in advance for your input/assistance!
  
 P.S.  I did note that at least one tube site offered tube extractors...
 P.P.S  Genuinely wondering if there are different grades/qualities of socket savers...I have seen prices from $2.95 to $29.95 a piece...
  
 Still looking for responses to my other questions...input is very welcome...


----------



## Synergist969

OK...I assume all you relatively new Freya owners are listening to your stereo systems rather than hovering over your computer monitors looking for relative newbie questions to answer...however, if anyone is willing to make suggestions regarding my questions, I am all eyes/ears...PLEASE?...
  
  
 1. What are recommendations regarding good/reliable website-based sellers of the Tung Sol 6SN7 vacuum tubes?
  
 2. What tube parameters should be selected for a matched quad...how closely should they be matched?...What about other matching options...low noise...?...high output...?...etc...?...
  
 3. In order to ease the stress on both the tubes as well as the tube sockets with the possible periodic if not frequent extraction/reinsertion of the vacuum tubes, I might like socket savers/extenders(?) to place in the Freya tube sockets, exactly what do I purchase, and from where?...recommendations please?...Are they all the same, or are some better made than others? 
  
 4. Can more than one socket saver/extender be stacked in order to have easy access to the base of the tube, or does that adversely affect the function/sound quality of the tube?
  
 Thank you in advance for your input/assistance!
  
 P.S.  I did note that at least one tube site offered tube extractors...
 P.P.S  Genuinely wondering if there are different grades/qualities of socket savers...I have seen prices from $2.95 to $29.95 a piece...
  
 Still looking for responses to my other questions...input is very welcome...


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

1) tubedepot.com
2) they matched my quad exactly to a whole number unit (85), you can pick low noise for an extra few $/tube, buy low gain, i think the balanced triode option doesn't benefit the freya but maybe someone with more tube know-how can chime in
3) i bought gold pin tube savers because the stock sockets are gold
4) i don't see why not but maybe a height issue (physically) not fitting?

Currently listening to a Jascha Heifetz RCA Stereo Box Set, freya with tungsol tubes adding that extra something to the bow slides. Very nice!


----------



## Synergist969

Thank you Soundsgoodtome:
  
     I ordered a matched quad set from you recommended source,...now...may I ask where you purchased your socket savers?...
  
 I did find:
  
www.audiotubes.com
  
 BRENT JESSEE RECORDING & SUPPLY, INC. 
  
 1590 West Algonquin Road #111 
 Hoffman Estates, IL 60192 
  
 who sells:
 Standard Octal Socket Saver
 If you tube roll octal base tubes, or have a tube tester and the octal socket get plenty of use, this inexpensive socket saver will save you plenty of work later if your main octal socket were to become intermittent. If you swap tubes in and out a great deal (as in a tube tester or amp where you tube roll) wear out this socket saver instead of your difficult to replace octal socket. This is for tubes like EL34, 6l6, KT88, 6SN7, etc. Well built and will last over thousands of tube changes!
 $18.00





  
 as well as:
  
 Vacuum Tube Extractor Tool
 If you tube roll or service vacuum tube equipment, you NEED this handy tool. This baby will pay for itself in saving you from burned fingers and smeared labels on NOS tubes, caused by trying to remove tubes by hand! Straight jaws for firm grip, spring steel construction, nickel plated, insulated jaws. Opens WIDE to accomodate even the largest tubes, and delicate enough for fragile glass antique tubes. Jaws are deep enough to grab the base of octal tubes, and insulated to gain a firm, yet careful grip on all-glass tubes. Can be used for extracting tubes, and re-inserting them, even in the most crowded chassis spaces.
 $24.99





 
  
 and wondering if those are significantly better socket savers the the $2.95 models on the internet...and if these extractors will save a lot of money and grief in the long run...


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

Ebay. I think I paid $16ea out of China. Figured they'd get here with the Psvane gain tubes.


----------



## Chrispb1

I'm based in the U.K. So if you need a recommendation for a U.K. Based web supplier we have Hot Rox and Watford valves with very similar pricing. 
Can't recall wear I read it but according to Schiit you don't need all 4 tubes matched only matched pairs, which makes total sense as you can use different tubes for gain and followers.
I'd also like to know the answers to your other points so thanks for raising them. Incidentally I'm awaiting arrival of pair of Tung sols from Hot Rox and a pair of Psvane cv181 m2 from Hong Kong, all should be here this week.


----------



## bigro

chrispb1 said:


> I'm based in the U.K. So if you need a recommendation for a U.K. Based web supplier we have Hot Rox and Watford valves with very similar pricing.
> Can't recall wear I read it but according to Schiit you don't need all 4 tubes matched only matched pairs, which makes total sense as you can use different tubes for gain and followers.
> I'd also like to know the answers to your other points so thanks for raising them. Incidentally I'm awaiting arrival of pair of Tung sols from Hot Rox and a pair of Psvane cv181 m2 from Hong Kong, all should be here this week.


 

 This is Correct, You need to Match the Pair on the Right (Input) and the pair on the Left. Not all four.


----------



## brad1138

hornytoad said:


> I can tell you that the matched Tung Sol's I bought are much better than the stock tubes.
> 
> I just did a quick test and put the stock tubes back in . Listened . Put the Tung Sol's in . Listened.
> 
> ...


 
  
 The Freya is my first venture into Tubes, I have always wanted to try them, and I like the Freya very much. I like the stock tubes sound, but I have nothing to compare the stock tubes to, other than previous solid state preamps(and the other stages of the Freya). I like what you had to say there. Where do/should I go to find a matched set of 4 of the Sol's?
  
 The only thing I want to be sure of is that there is no dropoff in the bass level. My room eats up bass, and I don't want any less than the stock tubes. 
  
 Thanks
  
 EDIT: OK, I used my brain a bit (and Google even more), and I think this looks like what I need:

 https://www.tubedepot.com/products/tung-sol-6sn7gt-new-production-preamp-vacuum-tube
  
 They offer 4 options, obviously I want balanced. Low noise sounds good(pun intended). Although I don't necessarily need it, and as long as it has no adverse affects, I would like more gain (although I don't know how much higher that is than stock). Don't know what "balanced triodes" is or if I should care about that. 
  
 Did I find the right tubes, and any advise on the options?
  
 Thanks again


----------



## brad1138

Edit:

 NM, Found the tubes I want @ upscale audio. On their way  

 TUNG-SOL 6SN7GTB "Platinum grade"


----------



## RoundRound

Hello People,
 we know how the right hand tubs are the gain and the left are followers, which one of each is the left and right channel? When facing the Freya?
  
 I'm trying to eliminate buzzing noises from one tube...
  
 Also, with NOS tunes, if they buzz or hiss than they are messed up? It won't get better with usage right?
  
 thank you, Tube noob here!


----------



## Chrispb1

From trying isolate noise I'd say front is right hand.


----------



## ggones

Front two are left channel.


----------



## captkirk

Anyone with a Freya and Jotunheim?  I've had thoughts on running the Freya as a pre to the head amp and was wondering if anyone has tried it, or if experienced with both, could provide insight if the combo would be worth consideration?


----------



## ToddRaymond

I'm actually planning to attempt that very combo, but am a couple months away from acquiring both pieces of Schiit. My plan is to have the Yggy > balanced in to Freya > balanced out to my power amp/single ended out to my nearby computer desk where Jotunheim will reside. I'll report my findings, eventually.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

captkirk said:


> Anyone with a Freya and Jotunheim?  I've had thoughts on running the Freya as a pre to the head amp and was wondering if anyone has tried it, or if experienced with both, could provide insight if the combo would be worth consideration?


 
  


turdski said:


> I'm actually planning to attempt that very combo, but am a couple months away from acquiring both pieces of Schiit. My plan is to have the Yggy > balanced in to Freya > balanced out to my power amp/single ended out to my nearby computer desk where Jotunheim will reside. I'll report my findings, eventually.


 

 I'm most certainly sold on the Freya, it's a keeper. The Jot I've just got last night plugged in and with the HD800 the separation/layering as well as imaging is off -- however the unit is brand new so not going to call it final and send it back to Schiit until I get at least 200-300hrs in (15 day return policy). I will say that tuning is spot on as far as what I'm hearing in frequency response even with the bright natured HD800. I'll be testing with the HE560 this weekend which I'm more familiar with than the HD800. Running headphones and input balanced from DAC to Freya to Jot.

 Keep in mind I also had the Freya feeding the Ragnarok for a few weeks as well - marvelous combination but too much in the hobby rolled into that Schiit stack than what I'm willing to hang onto. Source is a Holo Audio Spring Level 3 Dac.


----------



## captkirk

soundsgoodtome said:


> I'm most certainly sold on the Freya, it's a keeper. The Jot I've just got last night plugged in and with the HD800 the separation/layering as well as imaging is off -- however the unit is brand new so not going to call it final and send it back to Schiit until I get at least 200-300hrs in (15 day return policy). I will say that tuning is spot on as far as what I'm hearing in frequency response even with the bright natured HD800. I'll be testing with the HE560 this weekend which I'm more familiar with than the HD800. Running headphones and input balanced from DAC to Freya to Jot.
> 
> 
> Keep in mind I also had the Freya feeding the Ragnarok for a few weeks as well - marvelous combination but too much in the hobby rolled into that Schiit stack than what I'm willing to hang onto. Source is a Holo Audio Spring Level 3 Dac.




Cool! I'd love to hear your feedback once you've had some time breaking it in.


----------



## cskippy

Currently running Freya into Jot.  Just got Freya today.  It's a welcome change.  Tubes are where it's at.  Freya doesn't fix Jot's smeared center image but definitely helps with sound stage depth.  I'll be picking up a power amp to run HE-6 anyways, just wanted to see what Jot sounded like with Freya in the chain.  Stock tubes are meh, but they might need to be broken in a bit, so I'll withhold judgement for now.


----------



## Synergist969

Hello All:
  
   Well, picked-up my bright, shiny new Freya last evening from Fed-Ex ...and fired her up...    ...
  
 In fact, I simply replaced Ragnarok with Freya, using the same interconnects and equivalent inputs/outputs, such that the ONLY difference in my system was inserting Freya where Ragnarok was.  I also used the standard-issue tubes that came with Freya. 
  
   Relative to Ragnarok, Freya sounded to me to be a bit brighter/hotter in the upper frequencies...almost a touch strident at times.  This seemed most apparent utilizing the tube-mode...however, even in the solid-state/buffered mode it sounded slightly brighter.  I also noted appreciably more "air" and a more voluminous sound-stage with either mode of operation. 
  
   I am wondering, is Freya simply inherently brighter than Ragnarok, regardless of operational mode, or does it become at least slightly warmer as it burns in?...
  
   I realize that the tubes only had a couple of hours on them, and that they will change somewhat, however, being "tube-nube", I am not sure what I might/should(?) expect with regard to tubes. 
  
 Thus far, I am enjoying the big, open sound-stage with impressive clarity, however, I am hoping that this pre-amp might mellow/warm-up the lower to mid-midrange a bit, and/or tame the higher frequencies a touch. 
  
 Oh, and Fed-Ex is holding my matched-quad set of Tung sol new production tubes, and I am wondering what differences they might make in the overall sound of Freya/my stereo system...  
  
 Input welcomed...    ...


----------



## mervinb

If (big if!) your experience is similar to mine, the sound will change over the first 20+ hours of playing. I too found the tube section a little lighter in tonal balance than Jfet.

If anything to my ears the Tung Sols are slightly hotter (more detailed?) than the stock tubes. 

YMMV, but several have reported that the overall sound warms up with use.


----------



## RoundRound

Yes, the sound will open up and become more settled, but in my case this was over the first 3 weeks(!) of usage...
 I also really got into Tube rolling and found it's important to give new or used tubes about 20-30 ours of usage to settle. I hope this helps. 
  
 I'm loving the tube sound now and while the JFET sounds very good and detailed the soundstage is noticeably 'flat' and not 3D compared to tubes, at least with my speakers (ML electromotions).


----------



## belgiangenius

belgiangenius said:


> My tube impressions so far, ranked in order of preference:
> 
> 1.  RCA VT-231 grey glass - sweet, sweet midrange, slightly rolled off highs, but DAMN - nice
> 2.  Kenrad VT-231 staggered plates - stunning bass, clear highs - simply awesome, probably tied with #1
> ...


 
  
 Well, after another month of listening, my impressions have not changed much.  I keep my ranking the same.
  
 I ordered a few more sets on ebay but I find I've been returning the tubes I buy on ebay because people have been sending me a lot of junky, noisy tubes with hum.  Even the set I ordered that was guaranteed plantinum noise free was very noisy and is on its way back.
  
 I received the platinum matched quad of Tung-Sol new issue 6SN7GTB from Upscale Audio.  These are interesting sounding tubes with some nice qualities like great bass, good air, etc. 
  
 BUT, they have quality of smearing the sound all together, that I might describe as a lack of clarity.  Now, they are not broken in yet, so hopefully they improve in this respect.
  
 BUT, so far, I say they sound like ass and would rank them in between 5 and 6 above.  BIG disappointment at this juncture.


----------



## US Blues

synergist969 said:


> Hello All:
> 
> ...In fact, I simply replaced Ragnarok with Freya, using the same interconnects and equivalent inputs/outputs, such that the ONLY difference in my system was inserting Freya where Ragnarok was.  I also used the standard-issue tubes that came with Freya.
> 
> Relative to Ragnarok, Freya sounded to me to be a bit brighter/hotter in the upper frequencies...almost a touch strident at times.  This seemed most apparent utilizing the tube-mode...however, even in the solid-state/buffered mode it sounded slightly brighter.  I also noted appreciably more "air" and a more voluminous sound-stage with either mode of operation...


 
  
 I'm curious if you replaced the Rag, what you are using as an amp with the Freya? And are you using HP's , speakers or both? Some of the sonic differences you are describing may be the amp and not the Freya, so, inquiring minds wants to know.
  
 btw- Congrats on the Freya, it's sublime. The Tung Sol's, once settled in, sound all-around nicer than the stock tubes to my ear. YMMV.


----------



## ToddRaymond

us blues said:


> btw- Congrats on the Freya, it's sublime. The Tung Sol's, once settled in, sound all-around nicer than the stock tubes to my ear. YMMV.




How are you finding the Freya as a preamp in general? I mean, apart from, "I got these other tubes and they're better than the stock tubes", how are you finding it compared to other preamplifiers, assuming you have others to compare it to?

I've seen very few actual comparisons between it and other preamps out there thus far.


----------



## Synergist969

Dear US Blues:
  


> I'm curious if you replaced the Rag, what you are using as an amp with the Freya? And are you using HP's , speakers or both? Some of the sonic differences you are describing may be the amp and not the Freya, so, inquiring minds wants to know.


 
  
     Oops...I should have mentioned, I was using the Ragnarok primarily as a pre-amp, feeding my Marchand active X-over, which sends a signal from 60 Hz and up at 24 dB/octave to my Aragon 4004 amp., which feeds a pair of Lipinski Sound L-707 monitors...so, the ONLY difference in my system was the replacement of the Ragnarok pre-amp function with the Freya pre-amp...oh, and feeding my digital habit is a Yggdrasil...    ...so, yes, when the recording is spacious, I HEAR spaciousness...
  
  
   Regarding the Freya, I have thus far been evaluating it via my stereo system/speakers...oh, and yes, I did and continue to utilize the Ragnarok as a headphone amplifier...I just now must feed it a single-ended signal due to my Freya feeding my X-over the balanced signal output...


----------



## winders

My plan is is to use build a two channel speaker system consisting of:
  
 Yggdrasil
 Freya
 Mjolnir 2
 Vidar
 Vidar
 XYZ Speakers
  
 The problem is that Freya has no line level output for Mjolnir 2. I need to get output from Yggdrasil to Mjolnir 2. Yggdrasil has only one set of XLR outputs and those will be going to Freya. I can use one of Yggdrasil's SE outputs for Mjolnir 2 but I would prefer to use XLR.  Is it possible to "Y" the XLR outputs without compromising the signals? Or am I better off just biting the bullet and use SE outputs for Mjolnir 2?
  
 Thanks!


----------



## brad1138

belgiangenius said:


> Well, after another month of listening, my impressions have not changed much.  I keep my ranking the same.
> 
> I ordered a few more sets on ebay but I find I've been returning the tubes I buy on ebay because people have been sending me a lot of junky, noisy tubes with hum.  Even the set I ordered that was guaranteed plantinum noise free was very noisy and is on its way back.
> 
> ...


 
 Let us know how/if they break in. Obviously, they aren't going to be as good as tubes 5x their cost, but they have reviewed well other places. That and I just order 4 of them matched platinum....


----------



## US Blues

turdski said:


> us blues said:
> 
> 
> > btw- Congrats on the Freya, it's sublime. The Tung Sol's, once settled in, sound all-around nicer than the stock tubes to my ear. YMMV.
> ...


 

 I have not done a direct comparison with another preamp, and the ones I have used in recent times are not fully balanced, so I cannot offer and "apples-to-apples" review. However, I can share my preferences based on recent changes. When I got my Yggy it was running through a Parasound P 3 preamp and A 21 power amp, which is a well-regarded set of kit in the field. I replaced that duo with a Ragnarok and felt that the sound had improved in significant ways. At the time I was using small monitors on stands + subs, so the lower power output of the Rag was not an issue, although it is clear that Rag does not have the "heft" of a 200+ watt per channel amp.
  
 Recently, I got my B & W floor standers (Craigslist in a college town sometimes reveals gems). Now it is clear that Rag is not enough power-wise for these, and a pair of Vidar's is on my horizon. 
  
 Adding Freya to my system as a preamp, while using Rag as the power amp, produced an interesting effect- my system has a richness and soundstage that I did not get with Rag alone. And the signal still runs through the preamp stage of Rag, I can't explain it and yet that's what I hear.
  
 Edit: One other note, I heard Freya at RMAF with the prototype Vidar's and the Salk Song 3 speakers. That sounded real fine, and until I have Vidar's at home I don't feel I'll be able to fully appreciate the Freya. Like others here, the chain with be: Yggy > Freya > Vidar's > speakers.
  
 I hope this is helpful!


----------



## US Blues

synergist969 said:


> Dear US Blues:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I would recommend giving the Freya and tubes a week or more to settle in before coming to a final conclusion. I, and others, found the Tung Sols to be a notable improvement over the stock tubes, so that will also impact what you hear.
  
 PS- Do you run subs in your system, or are you using the x-over to keep the sub-60 Hz info out of your monitors?


----------



## Synergist969

Dear US Blues: 
  
 Quote:


> PS- Do you run subs in your system, or are you using the x-over to keep the sub-60 Hz info out of your monitors?


 
  
 I do run subs, a pair of SVS  PC13-ULTRA's, cylindrical subs run in the sealed configuration...so, in theory, they are capable of generating more bass than I could/should ever want, (I can adjust the subwoofer/bass output via the Marchand X-over OR the gain on the subs) ...however, it is the lower mid-range/mid-midrange frequencies that I would like to be a little stronger/warmer relative to the high frequencies...
  
   I have been running my system in/leaving it on, and operating in tube-mode since last Thursday evening, with a diet of pipe organ music and progressive metal...and awaiting changes...and will critically listen over the weekend as well as ongoing...Does anyone know if in order to "run-in" the solid state circuitry one must operate in it THAT mode, as opposed to the tube-mode...?...
  
   In any event, I am NOT displeased with the Freya, I am just hoping it smooths out a touch, or determine how to tweak it/my system, to obtain my preferred sonic signature...it's openness and sound-stage are pretty impressive, not to mention a remote...    ...
  
 And I still await the Tung Sol new production tubes...    ...


----------



## Synergist969

Perhaps kind of a silly question...However:
  
 As my Freya breaks/burns-in...I am attempting to compare the sonic qualities of the solid-state, buffered operation mode vs. the tube operation mode, however, with a 14 dB gain difference, I cannot simply press the remote operation-mode button to make an instant comparison, understanding that for reasonably "accurate" comparison, the two modes must be of equal sound pressure output...
  
 SO...
  
 How many single "clicks", (up or down), from/on the Freya are required to generate equivalent pre-amp output levels...ie...an increase or decrease of 14 dB at the pre-amp outputs so that I can make reasonable comparisons of the sonic qualities of both modes of operation...?...
  
 I believe I have read somewhere on either this website or perhaps the Schiit Audio website something about each step/click representing either a .5 dB step...or a .625 dB step...could someone confirm either of these two figures?...


----------



## ToddRaymond

us blues said:


> I have not done a direct comparison with another preamp, and the ones I have used in recent times are not fully balanced, so I cannot offer and "apples-to-apples" review. However, I can share my preferences based on recent changes. When I got my Yggy it was running through a Parasound P 3 preamp and A 21 power amp, which is a well-regarded set of kit in the field. I replaced that duo with a Ragnarok and felt that the sound had improved in significant ways. At the time I was using small monitors on stands + subs, so the lower power output of the Rag was not an issue, although it is clear that Rag does not have the "heft" of a 200+ watt per channel amp.
> 
> Recently, I got my B & W floor standers (Craigslist in a college town sometimes reveals gems). Now it is clear that Rag is not enough power-wise for these, and a pair of Vidar's is on my horizon.
> 
> ...


 

 That is helpful, thank-you!

 Last summer I had to downgrade my two channel setup, and in doing so I solid my power amp and preamp and went to a Ragnarok.  I feel like the amp section was totally fine and all, but that richness and soundstage you mentioned took a considerable hit.  I now have a somewhat upgraded version of the last power amp I had, and have Freya (and Yggy... up from Gumby) on the way to hear for myself.
  


synergist969 said:


> I believe I have read somewhere on either this website or perhaps the Schiit Audio website something about each step/click representing either a .5 dB step...or a .625 dB step...could someone confirm either of these two figures?...


 
  
 As per the specs on their site, it is indeed 0.625 steps.
  


winders said:


> My plan is is to use build a two channel speaker system consisting of:
> 
> Yggdrasil
> Freya
> ...


 
  
 I've been in pretty much the same boat as you with sorting out my system(s) (two channel system, plus nearby computer desk shared rig; shared source).  Eventually I'm going to get the Mjolnir 2, but it's going to get fed by Yggdrasil's single ended out, as I'm opting to keep the rest of the chain in my two channel system fully balanced.  I simply cannot afford two balanced Schiit multibit DACs, and otherwise don't really want to be bothered with trying to accommodate two (not to mention the added electrical draw).  Previously, I had a Gumby feeding an Asgard 2 (in addition to my two channel setup) and it sounded fantastic.  I figure feeding a Mjolnir 2 with a Yggy single-ended should still beat a Gumby balanced in.


----------



## RoundRound

synergist969 said:


> Perhaps kind of a silly question...However:
> 
> As my Freya breaks/burns-in...I am attempting to compare the sonic qualities of the solid-state, buffered operation mode vs. the tube operation mode, however, with a 14 dB gain difference, I cannot simply press the remote operation-mode button to make an instant comparison, understanding that for reasonably "accurate" comparison, the two modes must be of equal sound pressure output...
> 
> ...


 

 I'm using an iPhone DB meter app - works a treat and much easier than counting clicks...


----------



## Synergist969

YEPPERS...0.625 dB steps...per "click"... which works out to 22.4 "clicks" to obtain equivalent gain between the buffered and tube operation modes I guess...Hmmm...not that it is believed to be audible...however...what to do about that 0.4 click/step...lol...
  
   I too checked Schiit Audio's website, however, thank you for confirming that 0.625 dB figure...now, just achieving the technique with either the remote control OR the knob in order to consistently obtain those 22 or 23 clicks!...    ...


----------



## brad1138

I have noticed 1 or 2 "stutters"(for lack of a better term) as I turn the volume up between 11 and 1 o'clock. Sounds like it jumps in volume more than it should at a particular point (when turning up, drops more when turning down). It isn't a big deal, but anyone else have this issue?


----------



## US Blues

turdski said:


> us blues said:
> 
> 
> > I have not done a direct comparison with another preamp, and the ones I have used in recent times are not fully balanced, so I cannot offer and "apples-to-apples" review. However, I can share my preferences based on recent changes. When I got my Yggy it was running through a Parasound P 3 preamp and A 21 power amp, which is a well-regarded set of kit in the field. I replaced that duo with a Ragnarok and felt that the sound had improved in significant ways. At the time I was using small monitors on stands + subs, so the lower power output of the Rag was not an issue, although it is clear that Rag does not have the "heft" of a 200+ watt per channel amp.
> ...


 
  
 I know it doesn't make sense from an engineering POV, but a proper preamp in a 2 channel system can be difference between good music reproduction and Magic. Freya seems like a pre that brings the Magic, and at that price point it may be pure Wizardry!
  
 btw- what amp are you using?


----------



## brad1138

The Remote range sucks on my Freya. The remote that came with it only works from under about 10 feet. I programmed a harmony remote, and it works better, but still not well from my listening position, about 15 feet away. Is this normal also? A lot of electronics will have a clear plastic cylinder between the front of the device and the actual IR pickup, that directs the remote signal to be better received. My Freya doesn't have one of those, but from what I can see in pictures, that is normal.


----------



## US Blues

synergist969 said:


> Dear US Blues:
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


 

 Nice! I believe that with the Tung Sols and warm-up time you'll find the magic you desire. The diet of pipe organ and heavy metal is an interesting contrast! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 One thing you might try is to play with the x-over frequency and slope you are using. I have a pair of subs, and they sound better with a 12 db slope than a 24 with my speakers, in my room. A strange but true Hi-Fi story.


----------



## Synergist969

Dear USBlues:
  
   Hmmm...well, it WOULD warm up the upper bass I imagine, though per the published specs of my monitors: 56 Hz - 20 kHz ±1 dB (31 Hz - 40 kHz ±3 dB), everything in the literature on blending subs to monitors suggests the 24 dB at approx. 60 Hz...and I must give a nod to the +/- 1 dB quailities...(I simply don't want to do more damage than good...), BESIDES, i would have to order new, replaceable crossover cards from Marchand...
  
   I am hoping that the new Tung Sol's work that magic, otherwise, I imagine I can always chase down some interconnects/speaker wire that better emphasizes the mid-range and DE-emphasizes the higher frequencies...


----------



## Synergist969

US Blues:
  
 LOL...still thinking about that musical diet I'm feeding Freya and her tubes...(and STILL awaiting delivery those Tung Sol's via USPS...supposed to be scheduled delivery today...and it's already nearly 3:00 P.M. EST...)...
  
 Well, you should see my 50+ station Pandora list...oh, and I grew up playing French Horn...and am nibbling at 60 years of age...so...yeppers, a mite eclectic to be sure...listening to Ladysmith Black Mambaza station right now...    ...
  
 Incidentally, is there any value to actually feeding Freya's pre-amp output to a powered-up amplifier during burn-in...or when I am not listening, can I save some electricity and turn the amplifier off, and do the same amount of pre-amplifier burn-in,...(of course, I guess that would mean that I would also need to keep my crossover powered-up as well...)...


----------



## virtualvoid

Just wanted to give a little follow-up...
 I've been running my Freya for about 1 month now, and have experimented quite a bit with different amps and active monitors. What I find especially interesting is the difference between jfet and tube mode. At the moment, I'm running new Tungsols in gain stage, with the stock tubes as followers. (Waiting for a set of NOS Sylvania so I can get rid of the stock tubes)
  
 However, the more I listen to different combinations, the more I prefer jfet mode. Especially with highly revealing, supposedly linear monitors, tube mode just puts too much emphasis on the lower mids, while sacrificing low bass <80Hz by about -3db (according to my amateurish measurements). Sure, it all depends very much on the room, other gear, esp. loudspeakers, but jfet does measure more linear without noticeable bass roll-off. Also, it sounds slightly more clear and detailed to me. To put it short, I prefer jfet. I'm just wondering because everyone else seems to prefer tube mode...
 Or is it really just my tubes? I'm curious how the Sylvanias will turn out when they arrive.
  
 And even more I'm wondering why passive mode cannot keep up? In every combination I've tried it was missing some kind of punch/authority in comparison to both jfet and tube. It cannot just be some impedance matching issue, which, by the way, should have been fine in my tests. It just always sounds weak.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

virtualvoid said:


> To put it short, I prefer jfet. I'm just wondering because everyone else seems to prefer tube mode... Or is it really just my tubes? I'm curious how the Sylvanias will turn out when they arrive.
> 
> And even more I'm wondering why passive mode cannot keep up? In every combination I've tried it was missing some kind of punch/authority in comparison to both jfet and tube. It cannot just be some impedance matching issue, which, by the way, should have been fine in my tests. It just always sounds weak.


 
 I very much prefer JFET when listening to complex or fast music in the speakers. Jazz, quartets, solos, acoustic -- all get the tube treatment. This is the beauty with the Freya and the remote, I can go passive to jfet to tube without getting off the listening chair.

 With the HD800 running out of the Jotenheim (which I'm returning), I much prefer JFET as well unless the music is very simple in sound..


----------



## captkirk

soundsgoodtome said:


> I very much prefer JFET when listening to complex or fast music in the speakers. Jazz, quartets, solos, acoustic -- all get the tube treatment. This is the beauty with the Freya and the remote, I can go passive to jfet to tube without getting off the listening chair.
> 
> With the HD800 running out of the Jotenheim (which I'm returning), I much prefer JFET as well unless the music is very simple in sound..


 
  
 So the Jotenheim / Frey combo didn't work out?


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

captkirk said:


> So the Jotenheim / Frey combo didn't work out?





Not to the level I've heard the HD800 before... however I'm knit-picking like a real spoiled audiophile. If I hadn't heard the HD800 with the SA31SE or the Ragnarok prior I'd be more than happy with the Jot. If I had only mid-fi phones in the HD650, K712, DT880, etc the Jot is more than plenty for those phones. To be fair I'll write a final thoughts prior to sending it back to Schiit for a return. By then I'd have heard it with the EMU Teak balanced and HE560 balanced.


Don't get me wrong, for the price the Jot imo is incredible. $400 with a 5 year warranty, balanced, and a totl sound. If you had a closed back or a really wide openback headphone like AKG K series, I think it would be an amazing phone/amp pairing. Closed back because those are closed sounding in nature and K series because those are really wide in nature. The HD800 is wide and it brings it back down to a more normal listening soundstage but separation and imaging isn't there (for me).


----------



## watchnerd

winders said:


> The problem is that Freya has no line level output for Mjolnir 2. I need to get output from Yggdrasil to Mjolnir 2. Yggdrasil has only one set of XLR outputs and those will be going to Freya. I can use one of Yggdrasil's SE outputs for Mjolnir 2 but I would prefer to use XLR.  Is it possible to "Y" the XLR outputs without compromising the signals? Or am I better off just biting the bullet and use SE outputs for Mjolnir 2?


 
  
 I have the Freya and an MJ2 and XLR-input monoblock power amps + speaker -- pretty much the same config you're moving towards.
  
 I'll admit, the lack of a "fixed out" switch for at least one of Freya's pre-outs is annoying (even better for me if SE outs went from 2 to 1 and I got another XLR out).
  
 So I have to use a Y-cable XLR-out to feed both the MJ2 and the power amps.  Which means I leave the MJ2 off, ideally turn it on 15 min or so in advance of when I want to use it so the tubes warm up, turn the power amps off, etc etc.
  
 Yeah, I know, first world problems...


----------



## captkirk

soundsgoodtome said:


> No to the level I've heard the HD800 before... however I'm knit-picking like a real spoiled audiophile. If I hadn't heard the HD800 with the SA31SE or the Ragnarok prior, I'd be more than happy with the Jot. If I had only mid-fi phones the Jot is more than plenty of phones. To be fair I'll write a final thoughts prior to sending it back to Schiit for a return. By then I'd have heard it with the EMU Teak balanced and HE560 balanced.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, for the price the Jot imo is incredible. $400 with a 5 year warranty, balanced, and a totl sound. If you had a closed back or a really wide openback headphone like AKG K series, I think it would be an amazing phone. Closed back because those are closed off sounding in nature and K series because those are really wide in nature. The HD800 is wide and it brings it back down to a more normal listening soundstage but separation and imaging isn't there (for me).


 
  
 Interesting, and thank you for the follow-up.
  
 I'm trying to decide what direction would be better:
  
 Gumby MB > Freya > Jot 
  
 or 
  
 Gumby MB > MJ2
  
 I'm currently able to afford and regularly use a headphone rig, but I'd love to start building a 2-chan set and the Freya in-line could get my on my way...
  
 The best probable solution would be to demo either and determine what sounds better to me, but any thoughts would be appreciated.
  
 ref. HP = PM-2s


----------



## Synergist969

Dear Virtualvoid:
  


> I've been running my Freya for about 1 month now, and have experimented quite a bit with different amps and active monitors. What I find especially interesting is the difference between jfet and tube mode. At the moment, I'm running new Tungsols in gain stage, with the stock tubes as followers. (Waiting for a set of NOS Sylvania so I can get rid of the stock tubes)
> 
> However, the more I listen to different combinations, the more I prefer jfet mode. Especially with highly revealing, supposedly linear monitors, tube mode just puts too much emphasis on the lower mids, while sacrificing low bass <80Hz by about -3db (according to my amateurish measurements). Sure, it all depends very much on the room, other gear, esp. loudspeakers, but jfet does measure more linear without noticeable bass roll-off. Also, it sounds slightly more clear and detailed to me. To put it short, I prefer jfet. I'm just wondering because everyone else seems to prefer tube mode...


 
  
   I have possessed and been "burning-in" my Freya since last Thursday evening...,(currently awaiting a matched quad set of new production Tung Sol tubes), and using the stock tubes...and have rather accurate/linear monitors, (Lipinski Sound L-707's-56 Hz - 20 kHz ±1 dB (31 Hz - 40 kHz ±3 dB),)...crossed over at 60 Hz at 24 dB/octave, and with simply replacing my Ragnarok, (used as a pre-amplifier), with the Freya, (*NO* other changes whatsoever), my stereo system is currently audibly brighter...almost a touch strident in the higher frequencies...and wonder if you noticed your Freya mellowing over time...I WAS simply operating it in tube mode in order to burn in the tubes fairly quickly, and after approximately 48 hours, the system still sounds somewhat bright and edgy/strident in the higher frequencies...(not unlike the edginess that Yggdrasil evidenced for the first 3 or 4 days of burn-in/temperature stabilization), So...
  
   I have begun to listen more in the J-FET mode of operation...assuming that in order to "burn-in" THOSE components I actually need to USE that circuitry...    ...what I miss in the J-FET buffered mode relative to the tube mode is the depth/breadth of the sound-stage...(even with the stock tubes)...however, regardless of whether I am listening with J-FET mode OR TUBE mode, on treble range strings, (Violins/Violas), wood-winds, (Soprano clarinets, oboes, flutes/piccolos), or brass, (high French Horns/Trombones, Cornets, Trumpets, etc.), everything sounds a tad too "steely"...
  
 Has anyone noticed this, and if so, does it smooth-out...I loved the sound of Ragnarok as a pre-amp, and love the sound-stage that Freya's tube mode confers, however, I am not sure I can deal with the bright nature of the Freya...not sure if I will have to invest in some different speaker cables...


----------



## watchnerd

synergist969 said:


> Dear Virtualvoid:
> 
> 
> I have possessed and been "burning-in" my Freya since last Thursday evening...,(currently awaiting a matched quad set of new production Tung Sol tubes), and using the stock tubes...and have rather accurate/linear monitors, (Lipinski Sound L-707's-56 Hz - 20 kHz ±1 dB (31 Hz - 40 kHz ±3 dB),)...crossed over at 60 Hz at 24 dB/octave, and with simply replacing my Ragnarok, (used as a pre-amplifier), with the Freya, (*NO* other changes whatsoever), my stereo system is currently audibly brighter...almost a touch strident in the higher frequencies...and wonder if you noticed your Freya mellowing over time...I WAS simply operating it in tube mode in order to burn in the tubes fairly quickly, and after approximately 48 hours, the system still sounds somewhat bright and edgy/strident in the higher frequencies...(not unlike the edginess that Yggdrasil evidenced for the first 3 or 4 days of burn-in/temperature stabilization), So...
> ...


 
  
 What happens is you listen in passive mode?  Does it still sound steely?


----------



## watchnerd

captkirk said:


> Interesting, and thank you for the follow-up.
> 
> I'm trying to decide what direction would be better:
> 
> ...


 
  
 If you don't already have speakers and a power amp, get Gumby + MJ2.  You can always add a Freya, amp, and speakers later.


----------



## Synergist969

I have listened very little in the passive mode...I will give it a try, however, on a few cursory listens, I seem to recall that I felt that it sounded "congested" I believe...


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

captkirkIf you don't need the tubes, you could skip the freya and possibly speaker amp depending on what speakers you're using (efficiency) and just get a Ragnarok. If your speaker is plenty happy with 60w rms at 8ohms then the Rag just became headphone/speaker/and future preamp.


----------



## captkirk

soundsgoodtome said:


> @captkirkIf you don't need the tubes, you could skip the freya and possibly speaker amp depending on what speakers you're using (efficiency) and just get a Ragnarok. If your speaker is plenty happy with 60w rms at 8ohms then the Rag just became headphone/speaker/and future preamp.


 

 Fair point. 
  
 The idea that tubes are better tend to suck us newbies in, but I'm not sure if I'd appreciate the constant thought of "_is this really the right tube for my sound?_"  
  
 You either like the sound of s/s or move on...not necessarily more simple, just less grey-area....


----------



## RoundRound

Hey Guys, a noob question, how do you know the tubes (6sn7) are at the end of their life and need to be replaced?
  
 Thanks,


----------



## theveterans

roundround said:


> Hey Guys, a noob question, how do you know the tubes (6sn7) are at the end of their life and need to be replaced?
> 
> Thanks,


 
  
 If you hear popping noises every couple of second then it's time.


----------



## brad1138

roundround said:


> Hey Guys, a noob question, how do you know the tubes (6sn7) are at the end of their life and need to be replaced?
> 
> Thanks,


 
 From what I have been reading/learning (I am a tube noob also) Tubes in amps wear out, tubes in preamps, not so much. They should last more or less forever.


----------



## winders

brad1138 said:


> From what I have been reading/learning (I am a tube noob also) Tubes in amps wear out, tubes in preamps, not so much. They should last more or less forever.


 

 Nope.....I wish. Life is supposed to be around 5,000-7,000 hours.


----------



## brad1138

winders said:


> Nope.....I wish. Life is supposed to be around 5,000-7,000 hours.


 
 With some more searching, there are plenty of people backing that up, but others saying they have been going strong for 10 years. I guess it has everything to do with how much you use it.


----------



## winders

brad1138 said:


> With some more searching, there are plenty of people backing that up, but others saying they have been going strong for 10 years. I guess it has everything to do with how much you use it.


 

 Yes, it's all about much you use them. Tubes certainly wear out and eventually fail. I still remember going to the Alpha Beta market with my Mom to test a handful of tubes (from the TV) on the tube tester. New tubes were in a rack right next to the tester.


----------



## brad1138

I used to work at a local high end AV store that had a tube tester, never used it though. I wasn't into tubes back then. Does a tube fade then fail, or is it more, one day it pops/crackles and you know it's bad?


----------



## winders

brad1138 said:


> I used to work at a local high end AV store that had a tube tester, never used it though. I wasn't into tubes back then. Does a tube fade then fail, or is it more, one day it pops/crackles and you know it's bad?


 

 I don't know...I have not had a tube fail yet! But I only have 60 hours on my most used tube right now! I've been tube rolling and burning in NOS tubes to make sure they are good.


----------



## brad1138

winders said:


> I don't know...I have not had a tube fail yet! But I only have 60 hours on my most used tube right now! I've been tube rolling and burning in NOS tubes to make sure they are good.


 
 I have 4 Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB platinum versions coming in a few days. Hoping I like them, as I don't plan on getting any others, at least until they wear out.


----------



## virtualvoid

synergist969 said:


> I have possessed and been "burning-in" my Freya since last Thursday evening...,(currently awaiting a matched quad set of new production Tung Sol tubes), and using the stock tubes...and have rather accurate/linear monitors, (Lipinski Sound L-707's-56 Hz - 20 kHz ±1 dB (31 Hz - 40 kHz ±3 dB),)...crossed over at 60 Hz at 24 dB/octave, and with simply replacing my Ragnarok, (used as a pre-amplifier), with the Freya, (*NO* other changes whatsoever), my stereo system is currently audibly brighter...almost a touch strident in the higher frequencies...and wonder if you noticed your Freya mellowing over time...I WAS simply operating it in tube mode in order to burn in the tubes fairly quickly, and after approximately 48 hours, the system still sounds somewhat bright and edgy/strident in the higher frequencies...(not unlike the edginess that Yggdrasil evidenced for the first 3 or 4 days of burn-in/temperature stabilization), So...
> 
> I have begun to listen more in the J-FET mode of operation...assuming that in order to "burn-in" THOSE components I actually need to USE that circuitry...    ...what I miss in the J-FET buffered mode relative to the tube mode is the depth/breadth of the sound-stage...(even with the stock tubes)...however, regardless of whether I am listening with J-FET mode OR TUBE mode, on treble range strings, (Violins/Violas), wood-winds, (Soprano clarinets, oboes, flutes/piccolos), or brass, (high French Horns/Trombones, Cornets, Trumpets, etc.), everything sounds a tad too "steely"...


 
  
 At the beginning I also found Freya to be a bit on the brighter side. You might want to check my original post: http://www.head-fi.org/t/832177/schiit-freya-impressions-and-tube-rolling-thread/270#post_13254229
  
 To me it was only noticeable in direct comparison with my other preamp at the time. It wasn't in the highest freqs, where my other amp did produce a little more sparkle (too much!), but somewhat below, contributing to the very clear, open and detailed soundstage. So you see, I haven't thought of it as a bad thing and actually found it to sound more natural and with less coloration than my other preamp.
  
 This was all with very little burn-in however. Now, maybe 100 hours later, I don't notice any excessive brightness. To be fair, I cannot A/B anymore, it might still be there or I might have just accustomed myself. But whatever, it really doesn't bother me and I think it sounds "right" in the sense of linearity. Whether it sounds actually "good" might be another thing and is dependent on a lot of other factors...


----------



## Synergist969

Well, at least in theory, I have a matched quad set of new production Tung Sol tubes awaiting me in or around my mailbox...    ...(well, if I can believe the e-mailed USPS tracking report I just received anyway...), and wondering how long I will hold-out/continuing to burn-in the stock tubes, along with burning-in the solid-state, J-FET circuitry, still hoping Freya will mellow-out a touch in the next few days of burn-in...
  
 By the way...understanding that vacuum tubes DO have a finite lifespan...just what is it that breaks-down to cause tube demise...is it a loss of vacuum, or minute deposits of one element or another simply get "used-up", i.e., transferred from cathode to anode...or the heater eventually fails, or what?...not that it ultimately matters...


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

Does anyone want to purchase a matched pair of Tung-Sol to use in their gain stage? I purchased a matched quad but will be either using the Tungsol on the gain stage alone and stock in the buffer stage or PSvane in the gain and tung-sol in the followers.

 I'll sell a matched pair of 6sn7gt Tung Sol new runs for $40 shipped.


----------



## Synergist969

Though I realize that _*MANY*_ factors come into play with regard to the sound of an audio system., (yes, pun intended...), I am curious as to what system's Schiit Audio uses to to voice their components for production,...I can only assume it is a combination of several different sets of speakers/amps, etc...and wonder if they use a particular brand/make of interconnect or speaker wire...even if it is something that would be most affordable to the vast majority of us...such as Blue Jeans Cables, Mono Price or something similar...wondering if I simply need to dial in the sonic signature of Freya with something they would use...I have got to admit, the detail and voluminous sound-stage is VERY addictive...   ...maybe try the toilet paper in front of the tweeters trick might work...there again...the tweeters are uncovered...so...maybe not!...    ...


----------



## dtm300

Why don't you voice your system to what YOU like???


----------



## Synergist969

Dear dtm300:
  


> Why don't you voice your system to what YOU like???


 
  
   I will do so, however, I was simply curious as to the starting point/baseline at/with which the staff at Schiit Audio started, so I might have a somewhat better perspective of what might work better in MY system, rather than mix and match "add infinitum"...which could become prohibitively expensive...the information may or may not be applicable, however, I would prefer more accurate information rather than less...


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

An observation this morning ladies and gents;


So I've sold off a pair of my 6SN7GT Tung Sols to another member and upon removing the two Tung Sols from the buffer section and replacing them with stock, I've found the sound to be more favorable than all 4 Tung Sols or all 4 stock Russian tubes. It's a great combination of a live sounding performance in terms of the music and also very solid state like, like a much stronger JFet. I really like this pairing! Tungsol in the *gain *stage (right two slots looking at the Freya) followed by stock Russian tubes in the buffer.


Also it looks like I'll need to open the Freya to put in the socket savers... which then begs the question does that void warranty and is it worth it? I wonder how much Schiit would charge down the line to replace the sockets should they ever get too loosey goosey.


----------



## mhamel

soundsgoodtome said:


> An observation this morning ladies and gents;
> 
> So I've sold off a pair of my 6SN7GT Tung Sols to another member and upon removing the two Tung Sols from the buffer section and replacing them with stock, I've found the sound to be more favorable than all 4 Tung Sols or all 4 stock Russian tubes. It's a great combination of a live sounding performance in terms of the music and also very solid state like, like a much stronger JFet. I really like this pairing! Tungsol in the buffer stage (right two slots looking at the Freya) followed by stock Russian tubes in the buffer.
> 
> Also it looks like I'll need to open the Freya to put in the socket savers... which then begs the question does that void warranty and is it worth it? I wonder how much Schiit would charge down the line to replace the sockets should they ever get too loosey goosey.


 
  
  
 Depending on the socket savers, you may be able to remove them without removing the cover of the Freya.  I haven't tried this with the Tubemonger socket savers, but a previous set I had - if you look down into the center hole in the socket, there was a gap between the top of the socket saver and the base.  I used a pair of small screwdriver-sized picks that have a short 90-degree bend at the end - they fit down inside so that the short end of the L from the bend hooked under the top part of the socket.  I put some heatshrink on them so they wouldn't scratch or damage the socket savers, then it was simple from there to just lift them out using the two picks like handles. 
  
 And for anyone who tries this that isn't familiar with tubes/voltages/etc.... this should only be done when the amp is powered off, unplugged and given time for capacitors to discharge.
  
   -Mike


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

They won't fit going in.. that would happen to me after buying the more expensive kind of course.



 Quote: 





mhamel said:


> Depending on the socket savers, you may be able to remove them without removing the cover of the Freya.  I haven't tried this with the Tubemonger socket savers, but a previous set I had - if you look down into the center hole in the socket, there was a gap between the top of the socket saver and the base.  I used a pair of small screwdriver-sized picks that have a short 90-degree bend at the end - they fit down inside so that the short end of the L from the bend hooked under the top part of the socket.  It was simple from there to just lift them out using the two picks like handles.
> 
> -Mike


----------



## brad1138

soundsgoodtome said:


> An observation this morning ladies and gents;
> 
> So I've sold off a pair of my 6SN7GT Tung Sols to another member and upon removing the two Tung Sols from the buffer section and replacing them with stock, I've found the sound to be more favorable than all 4 Tung Sols or all 4 stock Russian tubes. It's a great combination of a live sounding performance in terms of the music and also very solid state like, like a much stronger JFet. I really like this pairing! Tungsol in the buffer stage (right two slots looking at the Freya) followed by stock Russian tubes in the buffer.
> 
> Also it looks like I'll need to open the Freya to put in the socket savers... which then begs the question does that void warranty and is it worth it? I wonder how much Schiit would charge down the line to replace the sockets should they ever get too loosey goosey.


 
 How does that affect the bass? Being as they are supposed to have very good or great bass.
  
 Brad


----------



## drleomarvin

Just received my Freya... Can anyone comment on how they are using their volume pots if going from Freya to a headphone amp.  Are you maxing out the headamp volume knob?  Are you hearing any noise when doing so?   I have the Freya volume between 12 and 3, while my volume on my vali 2 (high and low gain) and liquid carbon 2.0 (low gain) are maxed out...


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

So I've got the psvane tubes in and remember reading someone's post about they won't go all the way down due to size but they'll slide in enough to work. 

Does anyone know if the glass of the tube is ok to touch the opening of the tube on the casing? There's no pressure on the tube but the physical touching of glass to metal,is this ok?


----------



## Synergist969

Dear Soundsgoodtome:
  
 It occurred to me...would you be able to insert the socket savers in Freya by inserting vacuum tubes in the socket savers, then inserting the socket savers into the Freya along with the tubes...?...or are the socket savers' outer diameter greater than the diameter of the Freya case tube insertion holes...?...
  
   I too am considering socket savers and it never occurred to me that the socket savers might be too great in diameter to go directly into the Freya's tube passage.  My assumption was that, once the socket savers were inserted into Freya's tube sockets, then one would have to press down on them with a non-conductive rod while withdrawing a tube from them, so as to not withdraw the socket saver from the Freya's tube socket...


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## Soundsgoodtome

The socket savers i bought with gold pins from China for $16.95 each physically does not fit into the Freya's tube opening. Saver OD > opening

I've also confirmed that opening the Freya will void the warranty and to be honest I'd rather not do that over trying to save the socket.


----------



## cskippy

drleomarvin said:


> Just received my Freya... Can anyone comment on how they are using their volume pots if going from Freya to a headphone amp.  Are you maxing out the headamp volume knob?  Are you hearing any noise when doing so?   I have the Freya volume between 12 and 3, while my volume on my vali 2 (high and low gain) and liquid carbon 2.0 (low gain) are maxed out...


 
 You can do that or put the puts around 3 o'clock as sometimes pots can have tacking issues at their extremes.


----------



## mhamel

soundsgoodtome said:


> The socket savers i bought with gold pins from China for $16.95 each physically does not fit into the Freya's tube opening. Saver OD > opening
> 
> I've also confirmed that opening the Freya will void the warranty and to be honest I'd rather not do that over trying to save the socket.


 
  
 The Tubemonger socket savers will fit, but they are pricey.


----------



## drleomarvin

> You can do that or put the puts around 3 o'clock as sometimes pots can have tacking issues at their extremes.


 

 ​Thanks for the info.... I agree that volume pots at the extreme can be an issue (especially since I have already had the LC pot replaced)


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## Soundsgoodtome

I liked the way yours looked with the entire tube out of the case. Since I'm going to mostly be rolling the gain stage and really only need the risers with the psvane I'll get 2 instead of all 4.





mhamel said:


> The Tubemonger socket savers will fit, but they are pricey.


----------



## mhamel

soundsgoodtome said:


> I liked the way yours looked with the entire tube out of the case. Since I'm going to mostly be rolling the gain stage and really only need the risers with the psvane I'll get 2 instead of all 4.


 
  
  
 The Freya also runs FAR cooler with the tubes raised up... just slightly warm to the touch now even after being on all morning/afternoon.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

mhamel said:


> The Freya also runs FAR cooler with the tubes raised up... just slightly warm to the touch now even after being on all morning/afternoon.


 

 http://www.tubemonger.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=NOVIB-McMurdo
 Do you have one of the newer versions or the older? I ask because even 1mm can make a difference should these new ones be different in OD.


----------



## mhamel

soundsgoodtome said:


> http://www.tubemonger.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=NOVIB-McMurdo
> Do you have one of the newer versions or the older? I ask because even 1mm can make a difference should these new ones be different in OD.


 
  
  
 I have the newer version just prior to this batch that's shipping now.  I'd recommend checking with them to see if they're using the same parts - from what I can see from the link they are.


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## Jozurr

I wonder what the reason for this stupid design flaw was. The sockets should have been sitting flush with the top chassis. Did they not assume people will roll tubes?


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## winders

jozurr said:


> I wonder what the reason for this stupid design flaw was. The sockets should have been sitting flush with the top chassis. Did they not assume people will roll tubes?


 

 Stupid design flaw? I suspect that the guys at Schiit designed the opening for the tubes based on the spec for the tubes intended to be used. If people want to use socket savers or tubes that are larger in diameter than the tube spec, that is not Schiit's fault nor is it a "stupid design flaw".


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## Jozurr

winders said:


> Stupid design flaw? I suspect that the guys at Schiit designed the opening for the tubes based on the spec for the tubes intended to be used. If people want to use socket savers or tubes that are larger in diameter than the tube spec, that is not Schiit's fault nor is it a "stupid design flaw".




You do realize that not all 6SN7 are straight bottle but still within spec, which barely fit the Freya?


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## winders

jozurr said:


> You do realize that not all 6SN7 are straight bottle but still within spec, which barely fit the Freya?


 

 Here is the spec for 6SN7 tubes:
  

  
 I am sure there are tubes that are out of that spec. But that spec is probably what Schiit used in designing the opening.


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## Jozurr

winders said:


> Here is the spec for 6SN7 tubes:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Would it not make sense to have had made the sockets flush so the electrical equivalent tubes with different shapes could also be used? Im trying to understand the reasoning behind it as that design makes sense. MOST tube amps take it into consideration and have flush sockets. Yes schiit can design whatever they want but that doesnt make the design not stupid, when you have an opportunity for wider allowability and dont make use of it. Unless of course they specifically wanted to restrict anything else including electronic equivalents (7N7 with adapters for example), for which Id be curious to know the reason for.


----------



## winders

Let's stop calling the design choice stupid. Not everyone likes their tubes hanging out in harms way so I understand the design choice to protect them yet show they are still there. Having the sockets flush with the top would make it easier to do what you suggest. But again, because they chose a different path doesn't make that choice "stupid". In fact, it would appear to add cost to the product to have the socket flush with the top of the case. Would most of Schiit's customers appreciate paying for feature they won't ever use? That is counter to Schiit's philosophy.


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## KoshNaranek

winders said:


> Let's stop calling the design choice stupid. Not everyone likes their tubes hanging out in harms way so I understand the design choice to protect them yet show they are still there. Having the sockets flush with the top would make it easier to do what you suggest. But again, because they chose a different path doesn't make that choice "stupid". In fact, it would appear to add cost to the product to have the socket flush with the top of the case. Would most of Schiit's customers appreciate paying for feature they won't ever use? That is counter to Schiit's philosophy.




It would increase the cost of the amp to mount sockets to the top of the case. The reason that you can get a tube preamp for 3 figures is the high level of robot assembly. Flush mount would require hand soldering with wire. I am not willing to pay for this in increased cost and reduced serviceability.


----------



## Jozurr

winders said:


> Let's stop calling the design choice stupid. Not everyone likes their tubes hanging out in harms way so I understand the design choice to protect them yet show they are still there. Having the sockets flush with the top would make it easier to do what you suggest. But again, because they chose a different path doesn't make that choice "stupid". In fact, it would appear to add cost to the product to have the socket flush with the top of the case. Would most of Schiit's customers appreciate paying for feature they won't ever use? That is counter to Schiit's philosophy.


 
  
 Not everyone? Have you seen most high end tube amps? Have you ever seen recessed sockets? If anything that's going to harm tubes that are sitting in flush sockets, would most likely still cause considerable damage even in recessed ones. The harms way is not being able to use socket protectors when you tube roll that much, or having no wiggle room etc for example
  
 Also, some would take away the remote and add flush sockets but obviously we can't take everyone's choices into consideration. I highly doubt it's going to add that much cost to make the sockets flush, if at all. 
  
 I find recessed tubes design stupid, which is further confirmed by people facing "issues" due to design, which would be a non conversation had the sockets been flush, and you don't. We can agree to disagree on it no problem.


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## watchnerd

jozurr said:


> I find recessed tubes design stupid


 
  
 Then don't buy it?
  
 The sockets don't bother me at all.  And I wouldn't have bought it without the remote.


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## jseymour

Buy these and you will have flush sockets. They fit perfectly:
 http://www.partsconnexion.com/SOCKET-74489.html


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## Soundsgoodtome

The recessed tubes isn't nencessarily a bad thing, specially if you're rocking the house with speakers. I believe it may be the reason behind the giant plexi cover on that cube Woo amp?

 So with these risers, how much should I pay attention to tube vibration being the tube is all the way out of the chassis? I've tried these before in my MHDT Labs tube buffered NOS R2R dacs and they seem to make a positive change in sq. What do you guys think?

  
  
 http://herbiesaudiolab.net/rx.htm


----------



## jseymour

The recessed sockets will not add to tube stability as the tubes do not touch the metal holes. I think the tube stability is the same whether recessed or used with socket savers/adapters.
  
 I think the recessed tube sockets are primarily for keeping the manufacturing costs down.  When you are talking about a $699 price, rigid socket risers could raise the price by at least 10%.  I think Schit had a goal to keep the Freya and Vidar at the same price.


----------



## mhamel

jseymour said:


> The recessed sockets will not add to tube stability as the tubes do not touch the metal holes. I think the tube stability is the same whether recessed or used with socket savers/adapters.


 
  
  
 Agreed - I've had no issues with tube stability - even with socket savers + adapters on top of them, and I run speakers 95% of the time, along with an 18" Velodyne sub.
  
  
 1943 RCA VT-99 quad:


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## Pandahead

I have been using Freya everyday since January 3, 2017 and have several posts about it's wonderful sound and value. I own a ton of Schiit. I applaud their simple and robust case work. I got used to rolling tubes in my Lyr and Mjolnir2 even with little surface to get my fingers on. No complaints. Those tubes don't have a base. Same constant diameter. I do wish the diameter of the opening for the tubes on Freya (as well as Saga) was  a smidgen more but he problem I have noticed the most with the opening is the razor sharp underneath edge. It has a nice bevel on the exterior. No matter how careful the removal technique more often than not either some of the base gets scrapped away or occasionally the lip of the base hooks the underneath of the opening. Something that couldn't happen with their other tube gear. Those tubes don't have a base. My 1952 Sylvanias will sound the same with or without their labels scraped off, however it would be nice to not keep shaving away bases. I am considering removing the case to round the edges, they shouldn't be sharp, socket savers or not. Also all 4 sockets seem to be leaning outward slighty now as time has gone by as if they are on a slight dome which with such tight tolerance adds to the removal problem. The largest base I have measures 1.265" so they meet "spec"


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

Right on. Tube stablizers unnecessary
  
 Well I'm a enjoying the Psvane tubes in the gain stage with tungsol in the buffer. I've yet to sit down and listen to my headphones, just been speakers since I got them but I do want to say that the PSvane is noticeably smoother and warmer -- less strident. It doesn't seem to have any or much details/clarity loss but I can tell this more on headphones than speakers, so I'll reserve that thought for later.


----------



## Pandahead

OK, went to take a nap and this idea popped into my flea brain. If the inside edge of your Freya tube openings are razor sharp like mine (see previous post) here is a high tech extractor guard...


----------



## Synergist969

I have roughly about 200 hours on the Freya's stock tubes, and when listening in tube-mode, I am beginning to hear some occasional popping out of the right monitor/channel of my stereo system...and definitely more of a "hollow" "pop" as opposed to a higher pitched, "click", that would suggest something via the computer/internet, etc....
  
 So, I am wondering if I have a tube going bad...as I don't seem to hear it when listening via the passive or buffered solid-state mode...
  
 So, is this what I would expect to hear if a tube IS going bad...?...no audible distortion as of yet...
  
 Which tubes, front or rear, are in the right channel circuit?...
  
 Also, which tubes are more likely to go first, the right hand/gain stage, or the left hand/follower stage?...
  
 Any alternative ideas as to why I would hear intermittent popping in my right channel?...seems that 200 hours is a might short...though I have had them on continuously...


----------



## Intruder35

synergist969 said:


> I have roughly about 200 hours on the Freya's stock tubes, and when listening in tube-mode, I am beginning to hear some occasional popping out of the right monitor/channel of my stereo system...and definitely more of a "hollow" "pop" as opposed to a higher pitched, "click", that would suggest something via the computer/internet, etc....
> 
> So, I am wondering if I have a tube going bad...as I don't seem to hear it when listening via the passive or buffered solid-state mode...
> 
> ...


 
 The front two tubes are for the left channel, back two for the right.  Right two tubes are the gain stage and the left two the followers.
  
 I had a really noisy tube when I got my Freya about two weeks ago and am in the process of exchanging it for new one from Schiit.  They have been great in handling the exchange.
  
 Currently I have two new production Tung Sols in the Gain Stage and two stock tubes in the followers.  Still burning them in, but sounding great so far.
  
 Sounds to me like you have a tube going bad.


----------



## mervinb

My experiments with Jfet v tubes have more less ended. After my third stint with tubes, this time with mixed Tung Sols & stock tubes, I've concluded that my ears need the top and bottom end extension that the Jfet buffer stage gives me.

A new class D amp replacing a loaned Aleph 0s made this decision fairly easy. The amp (essentially an Amphion AMP500) is very transparent and thrives on the neutrality of the Jfet buffer.


----------



## Pandahead

synergist969 said:


> I have roughly about 200 hours on the Freya's stock tubes, and when listening in tube-mode, I am beginning to hear some occasional popping out of the right monitor/channel of my stereo system...and definitely more of a "hollow" "pop" as opposed to a higher pitched, "click", that would suggest something via the computer/internet, etc....
> 
> So, I am wondering if I have a tube going bad...as I don't seem to hear it when listening via the passive or buffered solid-state mode...
> 
> ...


 

 ​Try swapping the positions of your two front tubes and see if the noise goes away. Everything might be fine. At least it should be different. The gain stage is more critical with noise.


----------



## Synergist969

Well, I am somewhat outwardly embarrassed to report, (though inwardly relieved...), that the hollow popping that I had been hearing, I could NOT reproduce while playing my CD's, (using Yggdrasil as the D/A converter), AND/OR when I played a streaming music feed through "JRiver Media Center 20", as opposed to through my typical pathway through "Out of Your Head", the popping did NOT occur...(and I very rarely listen to the "OOYH" speaker settings through headphones, yet, it has to be on, (at least in the "bypass mode") for me to hear anything!...)...
  
 So, at least the stock Sov Tech tubes were not to blame... I DID decide to break in the matched quad set of new production Tung Sol tubes I purchased, and am now trying the suggested combination of the Tung Sol tubes in the gain stage, and the stock Sov Techs in the follower stage, and thus far have no complaints...hybrid vigor...???...    ...by the way, I am not sure, however, I seem to recall that my initial tube/pin insertion, (with the stock tubes), was met with somewhat more resistance than when I inserted the Tung Sol tubes...as well as when I then removed two of the Tung Sols, (in the follower stage), and replaced them with the stock Sov Techs...do the tube pin sockets tend to loosen-up a little bit and then stabilize, or do then continue to loosen up with each tube replacement...or do the Sov Techs have very slightly more resistance to insertion for what could be a few different reasons...?...
  
 The Tung Sol tubes did sound slightly light in the very deep bass when compared to the J-FET operational mode, (pipe organ pedal notes), as did the totally passive operational mode...I will attempt to listen critically to the Tung Sol/Sov Tech - Gain stage/Follower Stage combination after I am reasonably sure the Tung Sol tubes are thoroughly broken/burnt(?) in...
  
 Oh, and I DID replace the speaker cable that had been perfect with Ragnarok when used just as a pre-amplifer, with what I had before, the longer than necessary length of "Blue Jeans Cables" Star Quad cable, (welcome to bi-wired monitors...lol...), its not quite perfect, just a hint of softness in a particular treble frequency range, however, it does generally tame the overly bright/steely highs... 
  
   The breadth, depth and height of the sound-stage, not to mention overall detail and dynamics,  continues to amaze me...regardless of whether in solid-state/J-FET operational mode or in the triode-tube operational mode...I thought that Ragnarok used as a pre-amplifier was really good, however, Freya is better...anyone care to postulate as to why that might be?...(I wondered if it had something to do with a slightly brighter sound signature, or perhaps it might be even better volume controllers...or...lol...(I would much rather start with too much information/detail, and then reduce it, rather than not have the information from the beginning...)
  
 Has anyone found that with Freya in the chain that some recordings one formerly enjoyed just are not as enjoyable to listen to anymore...?...
  
 Regardless of the above, I appreciate everyone's input and attempt to assist me in this tube-nube's journey into the second guessing of everything audio...    ...


----------



## RoundRound

Hey guys, Do you turn off your Freya? I love it and use some moderately pricey NOS tubes.
  
 My music is basically playing from the morning till Late at night when I turn it off. So basically it's off around 6-7 hours per day. I wonder if it will actually be more beneficial for the tubes to never turn Freya off, unless I want to swap tubes. What do you think? Several people have mentioned they won't leave tube gear running when they are away from home (because of a risk of fire?), what do you think?


----------



## KoshNaranek

roundround said:


> Hey guys, Do you turn off your Freya? I love it and use some moderately pricey NOS tubes.
> 
> My music is basically playing from the morning till Late at night when I turn it off. So basically it's off around 6-7 hours per day. I wonder if it will actually be more beneficial for the tubes to never turn Freya off, unless I want to swap tubes. What do you think? Several people have mentioned they won't leave tube gear running when they are away from home (because of a risk of fire?), what do you think?




If it is only off 6 hours per day, I would just leave it on. That way, your tubes will not be subjected to as much thermal stress. Cathode depletion shoukd not be affected.


----------



## KoshNaranek

koshnaranek said:


> If it is only off 6 hours per day, I would just leave it on. That way, your tubes will not be subjected to as much thermal stress. Cathode depletion shoukd not be affected.




Grid breakdown should not increase much when not playing anything.


----------



## RoundRound

koshnaranek said:


> Grid breakdown should not increase much when not playing anything.


 

 Thanks mate,
 I can leave it in mute during the night, or is that problem leaving the Freya on mute (when in tube mode)?
 I saw somewhere you shouldn't run a tube pre-amp that's not connected to a load - would a turned-off SS power amp be considered 'load'?
  
 Thank you


----------



## brad1138

Does anyone know, if Passive Mode works while the unit is off? I figure the volume control doesn't work, but does it pass audio at whatever level the volume was set to when it was turned off?

I can test this myself, but I am out of state and just thought of it. If that does work, it would work well as a home theater pass-through.


----------



## cskippy

Haven't tried yet, but I'm pretty sure the muting relay is engaged when it's turned off so it's probably a no go.


----------



## brad1138

That makes sense.

I recently received and installed a set of 4 matched Tung Sol platinum tubes. They have been burned in for at least 50 hours. I haven't tried a/b with the stock tubes, but what I have noticed(in limited listening) is the JFET stage has a more pronounced, warmer and lively midrange/vocal section. The Sols sound lifeless by comparison (in the midrange). Normally I like a laid back midrange, but not here.

I need more time listening, and maybe the tubes need to break in more, but anyone else have a similar experience with these tubes?


----------



## brad1138

brad1138 said:


> I recently received and installed a set of 4 matched Tung Sol platinum tubes. They have been burned in for at least 50 hours. I haven't tried a/b with the stock tubes, but what I have noticed(in limited listening) is the JFET stage has a more pronounced, warmer and lively midrange/vocal section. The Sols sound lifeless by comparison (in the midrange). Normally I like a laid back midrange, but not here.
> 
> I need more time listening, and maybe the tubes need to break in more, but anyone else have a similar experience with these tubes?


 


 Getting back home and having some more time to listen, my above opinion is no longer valid. Although there is still a small level of a slightly warmer midrange, overall I like the sound of the Tung Sols better. Extended highs and a more open soundstage, among other things I need more time to pinpoint.


----------



## purehifi192

Howdy.  I'm planning to move forward with the Freya once the Vidar is officially out.  Other than the tubes always having to be inserted/engaged even when using the Freya in a non-tube mode, are there any other annoyances/showstoppers from this group's experience over the past few months?


----------



## Ghosthouse

purehifi192 said:


> Howdy.  I'm planning to move forward with the Freya once the Vidar is officially out.  Other than the tubes always having to be inserted/engaged even when using the Freya in a non-tube mode, are there any other annoyances/showstoppers from this group's experience over the past few months?


 

 In fact, the tubes do NOT have to be inserted to use Freya in pure passive or JFET buffer mode.  It works just fine as a pure solid state preamp.  I've used it with all 4 tubes removed.  Works just fine.  It IS true that if the tubes are installed, they will be "in use" whether or not you are actually listening in tube-mode.
  
 The only annoyance I've experienced (not a show stopper) is that it isn't possible to switch modes and keep the mute engaged.  Going from JFET to the much higher gain tube mode requires Freya to be un-muted.  This can result in some surprises unless you remember to first turn down the volume.


----------



## purehifi192

ghosthouse said:


> In fact, the tubes do NOT have to be inserted to use Freya in pure passive or JFET buffer mode.  It works just fine as a pure solid state preamp.  I've used it with all 4 tubes removed.  Works just fine.  It IS true that if the tubes are installed, they will be "in use" whether or not you are actually listening in tube-mode.
> 
> The only annoyance I've experienced (not a show stopper) is that it isn't possible to switch modes and keep the mute engaged.  Going from JFET to the much higher gain tube mode requires Freya to be un-muted.  This can result in some surprises unless you remember to first turn down the volume.


 
  
 Thank you for the clarification about the tubes not having to be inserted.  Debating getting 4 socket savers to reduce the wear/tear and your comment may make that decision final although I'm a less is more kind of guy.


----------



## Ghosthouse

@purehifi192 
  
 Socket savers seem a good idea.  It does bother me to be burning tubes unnecessarily - especially as much of the time I am completely happy with sound in JFET-mode.  BUT, for reasons that are mysterious and/or irrational, every once in a while - whether due to quality of the recording or my mental state (energized, alert or tired) or both, tube mode will just seem better so it's nice to have them plugged in and ready to go on those occasions.  I also use tubes as the default mode for listening to LPs, but that's a little more predictable so pulling them when not playing records would be possible but for the earlier comment.
  
 A couple other quirks I've noticed:
 1) in mute, I can still hear music through the speakers but very faintly.  
 2) ALSO - in mute I hear some faint background "warbling" (the only way I know to describe it).  I think it's associated with the external hard drive USB cable to the Aries Mini.  Noise goes away when I unplug power to that.  The very odd thing about this noise is I only hear it in MUTE mode.  With sound on in passive or JFET and no music playing things are dead quiet.  Talking ear near speaker and volume up.  With tubes I do hear some occasional faint rustling...typical tube-noise stuff.  It's not all the time or loud, either.  I don't think I hear the warbling in tube mode but need to double check about that.  Anyway, this is all in the interest of "full disclosure".  I remain VERY pleased with the sound having Freya in the chain.  
  
 If you get one, I hope you are happy with it.


----------



## purehifi192

That's awesome.  Thank you.  Interesting about the "warbling".  Is it a mechanical HD or SSD?
  
 I'm planning to connect Sonos Connect, Apple TV 3, and more than likely the Emotiva CD player (used as transport) to the Yggy then to the Freya using balanced cables.  At this time no other analog connection will go into the Freya.  So nothing mechanical to speak of even if the Sonos is pulling music from my computer since it's upstairs.
  
 The faint sound you hear when muted... is that dependent on tube vs JFET vs passive or across the board?
  
 Looking forward to completing the setup in due time.  Thanks again for your responses.


----------



## Ghosthouse

It's a mechanical hard drive (2TB Seagate) located just a few inches from both the Aries and Gungnir DAC (kinda don't have a lot of placement options).  
  
 The faint music bleed through while muted is happening whether input is set to passive, JFET or tubes.  It's VERY faint.  Have to have your ear right near the speaker.  
  
 If you order direct from Schiit you can always return it if you hate it (minus a 5%? restocking fee)....$35 bucks on $700 selling price.


----------



## purehifi192

ghosthouse said:


> If you order direct from Schiit you can always return it if you hate it (minus a 5%? restocking fee)....$35 bucks on $700 selling price.


 
  
 This would be my third Schiit stack.  Not worried about returning.  I'm sure I'll be more than happy with the setup :=)


----------



## mervinb

Yes, the extra gain in tube mode can mean a mighty shock if you forget to reduce the gain when switching from passive or Jfet to tube! I've been vacillating between tube or Jfet. After an audiophile friend came over for a listen last night, my decision, which I suspect will not be final, is to avoid this little gotcha and to pull out the tubes (again!).


----------



## US Blues

purehifi192 said:


> "...the Emotiva CD player (used as transport) to the Yggy then to the Freya using balanced cables."


 
  
 That configuration, along with a pair of Vidar's, will sound exceptional.


----------



## firedog

Freya remote: I know it is infrared; does anyone know what remote protocol it uses: RC5, NEC, etc?


----------



## hamedy

Hey guys, I've been reading this thread since I'm looking for a remote controlled preamp for my two channel setup. I'm wondering if there's any sonic advantage in using a Saga or Freya in passive mode over the SYS? 
  
 If not, I'd try to add a motor to SYS and make it remote controlled and save the money. It would be a fun project too I guess!
  
 Any thoughts?


----------



## Brubacca

Can anyone with a Gumby Freya tell me how it sounds with Grunge music? Specifically how does Pearl Jam and Stone Temple Pilots sound? Does it sound a bit raw like it should?


----------



## hornytoad

brubacca said:


> Can anyone with a Gumby Freya tell me how it sounds with Grunge music? Specifically how does Pearl Jam and Stone Temple Pilots sound? Does it sound a bit raw like it should?



Honestly I think your speakers will be the biggest factor here ... by a large margin .


----------



## winders

Okay, so what is the consensus for tubes for Freya?
  
 Is it the RCA NOS 5692 red base? Which version? The new Tung Sols? What is a reasonable price for the RCA tubes? Where is the best place to get the Tung Sols?
  
 Thanks!


----------



## ggones

People seem to really like the red base, but too rich for my blood.  I had terrible luck with the new Tung sols when I bought them from a certain online vendor- even after paying for low noise, balanced triodes, and matching.  I ordered 9 matched tubes (two orders) and sent 5 of them back due to microphonics or other noise related issues.  I have to question if the tubes were even tested at this point.  I kept 4 of the best, but still a little noisey and I will definitely not buy from them again.  I am not here to bad mouth any vendor, so I won't mention the site.  I am still on the search for a good tube brand myself.  I've heard several people mention good experiences from Upscale Audio, so I might try there if I was still interested in the new Tung Sols.


----------



## KoshNaranek

ggones said:


> People seem to really like the red base, but too rich for my blood.  I had terrible luck with the new Tung sols when I bought them from a certain online vendor- even after paying for low noise, balanced triodes, and matching.  I ordered 9 matched tubes (two orders) and sent 5 of them back due to microphonics or other noise related issues.  I have to question if the tubes were even tested at this point.  I kept 4 of the best, but still a little noisey and I will definitely not buy from them again.  I am not here to bad mouth any vendor, so I won't mention the site.  I am still on the search for a good tube brand myself.  I've heard several people mention good experiences from Upscale Audio, so I might try there if I was still interested in the new Tung Sols.




I have had no better luck with them. I was going to try Tube Depot next.


----------



## belgiangenius

winders said:


> Okay, so what is the consensus for tubes for Freya?
> 
> Is it the RCA NOS 5692 red base? Which version? The new Tung Sols? What is a reasonable price for the RCA tubes? Where is the best place to get the Tung Sols?
> 
> Thanks!


 
  
 I actually don't like the 5692....no bass.
  
 Not that impressed with new Tung Sols either.  They do a lot right, but lack clarity and sound smeared.
  
 My favourite is KenRad VT-231 staggered plates.  They are detail monsters and the bass can destroy your speakers.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 No recessed highs either, like with a lot of tubes.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

Anyone try the new made ElectroHarmonix 6sn7eh tubes? From the other threads they seem to be the try first before buying the red base rca or brown base cbs... Seems to have great ratings.


----------



## theveterans

belgiangenius said:


> I actually don't like the 5692....no bass.
> 
> Not that impressed with new Tung Sols either.  They do a lot right, but lack clarity and sound smeared.
> 
> My favourite is KenRad VT-231 staggered plates.  They are detail monsters and the bass can destroy your speakers.    No recessed highs either, like with a lot of tubes.




How did the 5692 sound smeared on your Freya? Mine sounds like what you're describing with the KenRad VT-231


----------



## Baldr

theveterans said:


> How did the 5692 sound smeared on your Freya? Mine sounds like what you're describing with the KenRad VT-231


 

 I suspect there may be some old and tired 5692 pulls floating around for sale.


----------



## belgiangenius

baldr said:


> I suspect there may be some old and tired 5692 pulls floating around for sale.




Possibly. I tried two sets, though. A CBS pair and an RCA pair that I got from different sources. Both pairs sounded the same to me...very clear, but no bass. This was with Sylvania VT-231 on the output side.

Kenrad VT-231 staggered plates sound substantially better to me.


----------



## Baldr

belgiangenius said:


> Possibly. I tried two sets, though. A CBS pair and an RCA pair that I got from different sources. Both pairs sounded the same to me...very clear, but no bass. This was with Sylvania VT-231 on the output side.
> 
> Kenrad VT-231 staggered plates sound substantially better to me.


 

 Yeah, gotcha.
  
 Perhaps -- at least in a speaker universe, the transducers with the best bass sound like they have no bass at all......Until something really deep comes along which can tend to surprise the listener.  The physics of the matter is that it is much more difficult to get a transducer designed to cover an ear to get down really deep.  Perhaps.


----------



## ray-dude

Since Freya doesn't have 12V trigger or HT bypass, what are folks doing to blend Freya in to their 2 channel and home theatre setups in a civilian acceptable way?  With 2 Vidar's running mono on the wishlist, three power switches on the backside of units is starting to add up.


----------



## hamedy

hamedy said:


> Hey guys, I've been reading this thread since I'm looking for a remote controlled preamp for my two channel setup. I'm wondering if there's any sonic advantage in using a Saga or Freya in passive mode over the SYS?
> 
> If not, I'd try to add a motor to SYS and make it remote controlled and save the money. It would be a fun project too I guess!
> 
> Any thoughts?


 
 Ok I've been reading on the subject now and I see that was a stupid question haha
  
 I wish Schiit made some sort of a passive preamp with balanced I/O and a high quality volume control for those who don't wanna mess around with tubes. This could be also an option in the DAC lineup in future? anyone else thinks that would be a good idea?
  
 I've been using active speakers for some time now and If I could get a Yggy with a quality volume control that adds let's say, 200-400 USD to the total cost, I'll be very very very happy! very happy! Schiit please.


----------



## KoshNaranek

hamedy said:


> Ok I've been reading on the subject now and I see that was a stupid question haha
> 
> I wish Schiit made some sort of a passive preamp with balanced I/O and a high quality volume control for those who don't wanna mess around with tubes. This could be also an option in the DAC lineup in future? anyone else thinks that would be a good idea?
> 
> I've been using active speakers for some time now and If I could get a Yggy with a quality volume control that adds let's say, 200-400 USD to the total cost, I'll be very very very happy! very happy! Schiit please.




Just use a Saga and do not insert the tube. It is in your price range and you always have the option of inserting the tube if you change your mind. (I predict that you will)


----------



## hamedy

koshnaranek said:


> Just use a Saga and do not insert the tube. It is in your price range and you always have the option of inserting the tube if you change your mind. (I predict that you will)


 
 I see your point, but is the volume control in a Saga as good as for example what is implemented in the Ragnarok? I really like to keep my system as simple as possible and get components that are as neutral as possible. So if the tube stuff was removed and instead the volume control was a very good one I think that would have a good market. With a remote control of course. Basically I'm wondering if adding a Freya between your Yggy and your speakers in going to take away from sound quality (in passive mode) compared to a passive preamp that is the same price as the Freya and has a more advanced volume control.


----------



## KoshNaranek

hamedy said:


> I see your point, but is the volume control in a Saga as good as for example what is implemented in the Ragnarok? I really like to keep my system as simple as possible and get components that are as neutral as possible. So if the tube stuff was removed and instead the volume control was a very good one I think that would have a good market. With a remote control of course. Basically I'm wondering if adding a Freya between your Yggy and your speakers in going to take away from sound quality (in passive mode) compared to a passive preamp that is the same price as the Freya and has a more advanced volume control.





The difference between passive modes is balanced/128 steps for Freya and single ended/64 steps for Saga. I never found 64 Steps to be insufficient. Both use relay stepped attenuators and are therefore both screaming bargains.


----------



## US Blues

I found this article regarding our dear friend, the 6SN7GT 'valve': http://www.effectrode.com/signal-tubes/the-6sn7gt-the-best-general-purpose-dual-triode/


----------



## KoshNaranek

us blues said:


> I found this article regarding our dear friend, the 6SN7GT 'valve': http://www.effectrode.com/signal-tubes/the-6sn7gt-the-best-general-purpose-dual-triode/




Worth the read.

Thank you for sharing.


----------



## Pandahead

My tube rolling has been interrupted by having the usb board in my Yggy replaced and a relay malfunction in one of my amps but here's my list so far, and these are just my observations (so far):
  
 1- Sylvania 6SN7W tall bottle, the biggest deepest tallest sound field with similar detailed focused images that I get from my RCA 5692 Red Bases. RCA not as dynamic. If your system is a little bright this might wear on you.
  
 2- Sylvania 6SN7GT 3 hole "Bad Boys" produced from 1951 week 39 through 1953 week 13. (The Reference 6SN7 Thread) A little behind #1 in all respects, but they have a special sweetness to them that is very seductive. Not as focused as the red base, but the little bigger sound field and their seductiveness is special to me.
  
 3- RCA 5692 red base or similar have for me uncanny detailed imaging as noted above. Good controlled bass for me. I would refer back to what was just said by Mike Moffat.
  
 4-(tie) Tung Sol 6SN7GT  "Mouse Ears". Great sound field and imaging. To me they just lack a little of what the above three have. But, for all the trouble that some are having with the new production Tung-Sols if you want to try, take a chance on E-Bay, get some mouse ears for not much more than what you're spending now and see for yourself. To me the new Tung-Sols get a good schooling from the old mouse ears.
  
 4-(tie) Ken Rad VT231- yes the bass is legendary and it's true for me at least. It's just lacking in what the first 3 have, mouse ears have better imaging but not the bass so in a way they're a tie for me.
  
 5- RCA VT231 grey glass- If you want lush this tube is for you. For precise detailed imaging it can't compete with the above.
  
 These are just my observations to date, that's all they are. I might feel a little different by the end of the year. I would like to try the short bottle Sylvania 6SN7W.....
  
 Freya can open a door to some truly great 2 channel. The affordability of Freya can allow you to more easily enter the fun of the tube rolling rabbit hole...


----------



## cskippy

Awesome post!  I'm not thrilled with stock tubes or Tung Sols and like the Sylvania tubes in other amps.  I'll have to check those out.  Are you quad matched or just rolling pairs?


----------



## winders

pandahead said:


> My tube rolling has been interrupted by having the usb board in my Yggy replaced and a relay malfunction in one of my amps but here's my list so far, and these are just my observations (so far):
> 
> 1- Sylvania 6SN7W tall bottle, the biggest deepest tallest sound field with similar detailed focused images that I get from my RCA 5692 Red Bases. RCA not as dynamic. If your system is a little bright this might wear on you.
> 
> ...


 

 What is an appropriate price range for matched pairs of the top 3 tubes? Where is a good place to get them?If eBay, what sellers do you trust?
  
 Thanks!


----------



## Pandahead

cskippy said:


> Awesome post!  I'm not thrilled with stock tubes or Tung Sols and like the Sylvania tubes in other amps.  I'll have to check those out.  Are you quad matched or just rolling pairs?


 

 ​I am using quads. I've had Freya running for 3 months now. To start I had on hand 4 CV-181's (2 Robert Shaw that came with my Icon head amp and two Psvanes)  a quad of RCA red base cause, well, Mike Moffat said so (had tried them in Saga and could tell), the stock tubes of course, and then ordered a matched quad of new production Tung-Sols cause people were talking about them and decided to roundup 4 mouse ears off ebay to add to the mix. It was no contest. Red Base followed by mouse ears. So then after reading the 6SN7 thread over again I thought I'd try some of those much talked about. The 1952 "Sylvania bad boys" were for me the stand outs. This stuff isn't cheap so I bought two, put them in front of the most logical, the RCA red base, and it was a holy Schiit moment. The first position lets you know the basic qualities and having 4 reinforces it, for me anyway. The Ken-Rad I have two of and also the RCA VT-231 because they just weren't for me. The Sylvania 6SN7W passes the wife test with the most flying colors (as do the other top two) When the wife says unsolicited  "wow the different instruments were so plainly right here and there and..." then maybe it doesn't matter what they cost.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  With some of these it seems near impossible to get a matched quad. I don't worry about it and just hope they really do test as good as the seller says. So far so good, where else can you find them? There's not many of them. I've been keeping an eye out for 3 months. You never know what will pop up. I really think if you like them a quad is best, so far anyway.


----------



## Pandahead

winders said:


> What is an appropriate price range for matched pairs of the top 3 tubes? Where is a good place to get them?If eBay, what sellers do you trust?
> 
> Thanks!


 

 ​The Reference 6SN7 Thread here is what sucked me in. Over the past few years most of my tubes have come from Upscale Audio. But where can you find a pair of Sylvania 6SN7Ws or Ken Rad VT231? If someone knows where other than ebay please help us out and post it. Everything I've purchased off ebay has worked out, although I have to take their word that they test well within the parameters of their equipment. If you find a matched pair of Sylvania 6SN7Ws metal base for between $300 and $400 don't wait too long to decide. I got a quad of real '52 Sylvania 3 hole bad boys for $185.80 in a bid. I've been watching for 3 months now. I have been just now watching people bid on some Tung-Sol 6SN7GT round plates, one pair sold for $395 the other pair $327. Ouch. Someone wanted them bad. There's not a super market full that's for sure.
  
 Freya and the right tubes will really let Yggy do it's thing. The better tubes really are like what someone else said, JFET buffer on steroids.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It will be sad when the supply finally dries up as the price is crazy. I'm thinking Freya is at fault!


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

So anyone try Electro Harmonix 6sn7eh? Reference thread says they're up to par with rca red base... At $20/ea


----------



## winders

Anyone have a set of four matched or two matched pairs of the RCA 5692 red base tubes they are willing to sell?


----------



## belgiangenius

pandahead said:


> ​The Reference 6SN7 Thread here is what sucked me in. Over the past few years most of my tubes have come from Upscale Audio. But where can you find a pair of Sylvania 6SN7Ws or Ken Rad VT231? If someone knows where other than ebay please help us out and post it. Everything I've purchased off ebay has worked out, although I have to take their word that they test well within the parameters of their equipment.


 
  
 I've returned probably 60% of the tubes I bought on ebay, primarily due to loud hum.  I find many of them just unlistenable.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

From a conversation of why you'd want to use LYST Tubes vs just using the JFET path of the Freya, is it true that passing the signal through the tubes creates a balanced signal when the source is only line out and not XLR?

 So if my DAC is only line out through RCA, I feed the Freya with it, I can send a signal to a balanced amp and the signal will be balanced...yes?


----------



## theveterans

pandahead said:


> ​
> 
> Freya and the right tubes will really let Yggy do it's thing. The better tubes really are like what someone else said, JFET buffer on steroids.
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks for referencing my quote from some time ago. I settled with the quad 5692s already. I still perceive them as JFET buffer on steroids.


----------



## Pandahead

theveterans said:


> Thanks for referencing my quote from some time ago. I settled with the quad 5692s already. I still perceive them as JFET buffer on steroids.


 

 ​I was glad you said that.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




   For me the 5692's tightly focused imaging is remarkable. They don't have as much bass as the Sylvanias but it's tight and dynamic in my system, maybe focused is a better word? A big part of the concept of Freya seems to me was to allow 6SN7 tubes to show their stuff. If I could go into the kitchen I would take 2 parts 5692, 1 part Sylvania 6SN7W, 1 part Sylvania  6SN7GT 3 hole bad boy an stir them in a pot!


----------



## captkirk

Anyone have tube suggestions for the those with speakers that are a touch bright?


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

Below is from the 6SN7 reference thread. I just got a pair of these in, I'll be trying them as drivers and as buffers. The PSVANEs have been a great addition, although a mid pushed forward in the mids a hair. Hopefully the Elect_Harmonix combines nicely as buffers.
  
  
  
*NEW STOCK – Electro-Harmonix EH6SN7*
_[black plates, black base, black labels on glass, top getter]_
 ● “The Electro Harmonix were the most dynamic in the MPX3 . The Bass is also the best and biggest of the three; quite detailed and tight. Midrange is also full of detail air and transparency up and down the range. Gets a little too bright in my system at times, but generally the most fun and involving tubes to listen to so far for me.” –bobjew
 ● “With the Electro Harmonix 6SN7's in current production, there is no need to suffer.” –Hirsch
 ● “They are fast-paced tubes with a bit of a heavy bass and paired with a slower driver tube the combo sounds quite nice.” –donovansmith
 ● “I came across a new 6SN7 tube by Electro-Harmonix and it sounds great. This tube seems to be a very good copy of the Sylvania VT231.It has killer bass and an excellent midrange and vocal performance. It warms up quickly and is not noisy or microphonic at all. It is an excellent value at $10.00 a pop. […] The build quality is high and they are very, very closely matched as tested on my tube tester. These get a "best buy" recommendation from Tuberoller. Try them before dropping big bucks on the Ken-Rads or CBS Brown or Red based tubes.” –Tuberoller
 ● “The biggest finding is that the Electro-Harmonix 6SN7 tube is about as good as a Syl 6SN7GTB.” –scottpaul_iu


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

Alright gents, got my electro harmonix cooking for the past hour. Using them in the buffer stage with Psvane in the driver.. Now before with the tung sol i thought that the psvane were slow and a bit tilted towards low res, dare i say muddy. But now with the electroharmonix in the buffer I'm getting a nice balance of clarity and musicality, it's almost a whole new system. A veil lifted from the sound yet still very romantic in a tube way. 

I may order another two and see how they sound running all electroharmonix. Bought it from Tubedepot.com


----------



## yinyang69

soundsgoodtome said:


> Alright gents, got my electro harmonix cooking for the past hour. Using them in the buffer stage with Psvane in the driver.. Now before with the tung sol i thought that the psvane were slow and a bit tilted towards low res, dare i say muddy. But now with the electroharmonix in the buffer I'm getting a nice balance of clarity and musicality, it's almost a whole new system. A veil lifted from the sound yet still very romantic in a tube way.
> 
> I may order another two and see how they sound running all electroharmonix


 
 Where do you get tubes from?


----------



## Pandahead

soundsgoodtome said:


> Alright gents, got my electro harmonix cooking for the past hour. Using them in the buffer stage with Psvane in the driver.. Now before with the tung sol i thought that the psvane were slow and a bit tilted towards low res, dare i say muddy. But now with the electroharmonix in the buffer I'm getting a nice balance of clarity and musicality, it's almost a whole new system. A veil lifted from the sound yet still very romantic in a tube way.
> 
> I may order another two and see how they sound running all electroharmonix. Bought it from Tubedepot.com


 

 ​Thanks for doing this, hope it goes well. Wanted to say earlier The Tube Store, Parts Connection and Upscale Audio also have them but got sidetracked by Jason's April Fools challenge. Evidently the Tung-Sols come from the Electo-harmonix factory. Upscale has a really good pictrure and looks very much like my Tung-Sols so await how they compare in sound. You just never know until you try. They make a gold pin version but might be the exact tube with gold pins.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

^ the 6sn7 reference thread has them sounding quite different and they do (tung sol vs electroharmonix). Could be the same factory, different spec/design? 

Also, there is a mention that the gold pin eh6sn7 sounds exactly the same as the cheaper version non gold. So unless you're matching colors or go for looks


----------



## yinyang69

Has anyone tried cryo treated tube? Does it make difference or it's a complete B.S?


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

It can't be complete bs if it makes you feel good, it's like 3k oil change intervals in standadd cars - people swear by it, people say it's a waste. But it does make you feel good having an oil change, yes?


----------



## yinyang69

soundsgoodtome said:


> It can't be complete bs if it makes you feel good, it's like 3k oil change intervals in standadd cars - people swear by it, people say it's a waste. But it does make you feel good having an oil change, yes?


 
 Just wanted know if there is any sonic difference between cryo and non cryo.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

I'm not a believer but supposedly you should cryo from outlet to tubes to amp


----------



## cskippy

Might as well put it in an ice bath at that point...


----------



## KoshNaranek

yinyang69 said:


> Has anyone tried cryo treated tube? Does it make difference or it's a complete B.S?




The myth of cryo stems from cryo treating STEEL parts during their manufacture. The process creates a smaller crystalline structure on the surface of the part, giving it increased durability without increase in brittleness.

The only reason that I can think of to cryo treat a tube is as a form of destructive testing. If it survives the process, it is probably a good tube.


----------



## Synergist969

I have a matched quad of the Tung Sol new stock tubes as well as a matched quad of the stock Freya tubes...and currently running the Tung Sols in the gain position, and the stock tubes in the buffer/follower(?) position...
  
 I have read that some people like the Electro Harmonix new stock tubes...
  
 Has anyone done a direct comparison of the Tung Sol new stock tubes vs. the Electro Harmonix new stock tubes...similarities and differences...?...
  
 If anyone has some experience with both of these tubes in the Freya, and or in combination with each other...or in combination with other tubes, I would like to learn from you what you heard?...
  
 Thanks


----------



## Brubacca

Does Freya have a warm up time when turned on? Meaning to sound optimum. So if I turn on Freya does it sound great immediately? After 30 minutes? After an hour? Tube mode or otherwise?


----------



## RoundRound

IMO,
 The Freya is ready to go shortly after warmup (5 minutes? Less), Unless in tube mode - where it's common knowledge tubes take about an hour to reach optimum state. 

 Have fun!


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

To add to this, does anyone know if using JFET or passive preamp mode still pipe music into the tubes? I ask because I usually like to fire up and listen immediately but I know that tubes should have at least 5-10 mins of on time with no music to extend it's life (not just the 30-60s Schiit programmed into their relay).

 So if I want music in a instant right when the relay kicks in, can I put the Freya into JFET mode while the tubes warm a good 10 minutes then switch to the tubes? Does doing so cut any signal going into tubes when using the other modes?


----------



## Jozurr

Do the tubes still get power on when the Freya is in JFET mode? If they are.. that'd be pretty annoying way to kill the tubes much faster than you'd like.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

They stay on. It's best to keep the stock tubes for this reason.


----------



## cskippy

If you're planning on using the other modes, just pull the tubes.  Socket savers will help tremendously here.


----------



## eschell27

Anyone else ordered a Freya while they have been out of stock / back ordered? They are supposed to start shipping this week, was just wondering if anyone had gotten a shipping notification or received theirs yet... really looking forward to pairing this with Gumby/Jot/HD650KM/Good NOS tubes. Getting ready to order some tubes as well... been looking around... any suggestions on tubes that i could get 4 of for $200 or less. What are they, what are you pairing them with, what kind of sound signature? Thanks in advance!


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

You should start at a good baseline for sane prices. Get the EN6SN7 from tubedepot.com and use code 10APRIL to get 10% off. A quad will run $100 matched and low noise tested.

This is a fast tube with good bass slam and reach. Great clarity and clean mids/highs with air. Could be bright if your DAC and headphone are combining to be bright but a warm DAC or phone will take well to the sound.


----------



## belgiangenius

jozurr said:


> Do the tubes still get power on when the Freya is in JFET mode? If they are.. that'd be pretty annoying way to kill the tubes much faster than you'd like.


 
  
 Yes, they do.  I love my Freya, but this is probably the most annoying part of it.
  
 I use my sound system for television watching at night too.  I tend to use JFET mode when watching tv., so every night my Sylvania 6SN7W ($200+ for a set) burn for 3 hours unnecessarily.
  
 Yank the tubes every time I don't want to listen?  I think they might die a quicker death that way with all the mechanical abuse.


----------



## KoshNaranek

belgiangenius said:


> Yes, they do.  I love my Freya, but this is probably the most annoying part of it.
> 
> I use my sound system for television watching at night too.  I tend to use JFET mode when watching tv., so every night my Sylvania 6SN7W ($200+ for a set) burn for 3 hours unnecessarily.
> 
> Yank the tubes every time I don't want to listen?  I think they might die a quicker death that way with all the mechanical abuse.




From the reading I have done and discussion with my father(80 year old power engineer), yanking the tubes would cause them to fail faster for exactly the reason you describe.


----------



## KoshNaranek

According to my father, proper tubes are water cooled.


----------



## KoshNaranek

koshnaranek said:


> According to my father, proper tubes are water cooled.




....and roughly the size of a seeded watermelon.


----------



## Topmounter

eschell27 said:


> Anyone else ordered a Freya while they have been out of stock / back ordered? They are supposed to start shipping this week, was just wondering if anyone had gotten a shipping notification or received theirs yet... really looking forward to pairing this with Gumby/Jot/HD650KM/Good NOS tubes. Getting ready to order some tubes as well... been looking around... any suggestions on tubes that i could get 4 of for $200 or less. What are they, what are you pairing them with, what kind of sound signature? Thanks in advance!


 
  
 I'm considering ordering a Freya finally.  It seems that the Electro-Harmonic $20+ model is a great starting point and potentially a darn good ending point as well.  I'm trying to keep the prospect of spending hundreds of dollars experimenting with NOS tubes out of the equation for now, since that rapidly turns a $799 preamp into a much more expensive preamp and brings a lot more competitive options into play.


----------



## bmanone

mhamel said:


> Agreed - I've had no issues with tube stability - even with socket savers + adapters on top of them, and I run speakers 95% of the time, along with an 18" Velodyne sub.
> 
> 
> 1943 RCA VT-99 quad:


 
  
 Mike,
 How do you like the 1943 RCA VT-99 quad in the Freya?  How would you compare them to the other tubes you tried?
 Thanks,
*Barry*


----------



## Baldr

bmanone said:


> Mike,
> How do you like the 1943 RCA VT-99 quad in the Freya?  How would you compare them to the other tubes you tried?
> Thanks,
> *Barry*


 
  
 Very good for plugged in stuff, but I prefer 5692s for unplugged.


----------



## winders

What is a fair price for 5692's? 
  
 No one buy these if it is fair:
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/222460239592?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
  
 Is that a fair price? Are they the right tubes? Anyone know the seller?


----------



## Baldr

winders said:


> What is a fair price for 5692's?
> 
> No one buy these if it is fair:
> 
> ...


 

 It seems high to me, but I bought mine years ago.
 They are exactly the correct tubes.
 I do not know the seller.


----------



## Pandahead

winders said:


> What is a fair price for 5692's?
> 
> No one buy these if it is fair:
> 
> ...


 

 ​Seems fair for 2017.   
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  Ty Cobb doesn't play baseball anymore! I bought a pair from him 2 months ago and are fine. But it was just because he had some so it's roulette. Paid $218.95. Use 4 of them, the focused images for me, as I've said before, are still the best. But that's just me.


----------



## theveterans

pandahead said:


> ​Seems fair for 2017.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 It's not a new NOS pair, but it's a low hour use for sure.


----------



## Topmounter

Quick question:  The tube stage of my DAC (single-ended) has an output impedance of 22k Ohms (3.2V +/- .5).  Is there any reason that won't match well with the SE inputs on the Freya?  Or is impedance matching not really an issue between the source and preamp?


----------



## theveterans

An amp input ideally should have infinite input impedance. I'm pretty sure most amps/preamps have an input impedance far higher thatn your DACs


----------



## treynolds155

So I've been following the Freya since it first was announced and have nearly pulled the trigger on purchasing one. However recently I started thinking about the Woo WA2 with pre-outs again. Does anyone have any idea as to how these two would stack up against each other as a preamp. Here is where I'm at:
  
 1- I have no headphone(s) YET  so this will be mainly for a preamp and most certainly a head amp shortly down the road. 
 2- SE is fine, I have no balanced equipment. I only need one analog input...dac.
 3- Lack of remote volume kinda sucks but I can factor that in with a future dac purchase....probably a Gumby.
 4- Not looking for a lot of features, perhaps a Y cable on pre out to feed a sub someday.
  
 My system has been downsized from some high end vintage stuff I've bought over 25 years ago. 
 1- currently using the analog section of a Theta preamp.
 2- Two Parasound Vamp3...my baby monoblocks lol....actually sound as good as my old Threshold amp. 
 3- Aracam irdac
 4- SVS Ultra Bookshelf speakers, they've replaced B&W 801 S2....sigh I miss the bass but damn they sound good too. 
  
 Both the Freya and WA2 get great reviews, the WA2 can serve as pre and head amp.....any thoughts on this would be much appreciated.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

Did you actually read up on the Freya? First it has multiple se outputs but you may have issues because they all follow the volume pot, the is no signal line level pass through. 

It doesn't have a headphone amp. (Freya)
It does have a remote control.



treynolds155 said:


> So I've been following the Freya since it first was announced and have nearly pulled the trigger on purchasing one. However recently I started thinking about the Woo WA2 with pre-outs again. Does anyone have any idea as to how these two would stack up against each other as a preamp. Here is where I'm at:
> 
> 1- I have no headphone(s) YET  so this will be mainly for a preamp and most certainly a head amp shortly down the road.
> 2- SE is fine, I have no balanced equipment. I only need one analog input...dac.
> ...


----------



## treynolds155

sorry if I wasn't clear, that first section was in reference to the WA2. If the sound quality is comparable, I'm leaning towards the Woo for it's dual functionality. I have done extensive reading on both but I'm not an expert.


----------



## Jozurr

treynolds155 said:


> sorry if I wasn't clear, that first section was in reference to the WA2. If the sound quality is comparable, I'm leaning towards the Woo for it's dual functionality. I have done extensive reading on both but I'm not an expert.


 
  
 Would be interested in this comparison too!


----------



## brad1138

Love the Freya, but I am really wishing it had HT passthrough... I wonder if it is possible to have it modded by Schiit?


----------



## HipHopScribe

brad1138 said:


> Love the Freya, but I am really wishing it had HT passthrough... I wonder if it is possible to have it modded by Schiit?


 
  
 No, they don't do custom orders or anything like that


----------



## kazsud

treynolds155 said:


> So I've been following the Freya since it first was announced and have nearly pulled the trigger on purchasing one. However recently I started thinking about the Woo WA2 with pre-outs again. Does anyone have any idea as to how these two would stack up against each other as a preamp. Here is where I'm at:
> 
> 1- I have no headphone(s) YET  so this will be mainly for a preamp and most certainly a head amp shortly down the road.
> 2- SE is fine, I have no balanced equipment. I only need one analog input...dac.
> ...


 
  
  
 I had the Wa2 for almost a year. I would suggest the Freya because it has a neutral non-tube sound when in jfet and passive mode which you can't do with the Wa2.
  
 If you heard the Wa2 and love it then get it. But you can design your sound w/ the Freya by mixing tubes. Then the amps it's feeding can always be solid state.


----------



## kazsud

So far loving the current production tung sols. I felt the stock tubes didn't have much character but also had some micro dynamics that didn't go away so I spent more time jfetting.


----------



## treynolds155

Thanks for the feedback....I appreciate it!!


----------



## Jozurr

Its so stupid to let the tubes burn while you use the JFET mode. Tubes have a limited life and the good ones are costly. I wanted to use the tube side for my he6 setup, and the JFET mode for the studio monitors, but I cant have my expensive tubes keep burning while im using the studio monitors and not listening to them. Yanking them out every time every time isnt convenient or good for the tubes. 

I understand keeping costs low, but I cant imagine the tubes power off button or option or the sockets being flush with the chassis adding all that much to the cost. It makes it very inconvenient for me to use for my whole system so Ill have to resort to using it on either the he6 setup or the studio monitors. Bad design.


----------



## winders

jozurr said:


> Its so stupid to let the tubes burn while you use the JFET mode. Tubes have a limited life and the good ones are costly. I wanted to use the tube side for my he6 setup, and the JFET mode for the studio monitors, but I cant have my expensive tubes keep burning while im using the studio monitors and not listening to them. Yanking them out every time every time isnt convenient or good for the tubes.
> 
> I understand keeping costs low, but I cant imagine the tubes power off button or option or the sockets being flush with the chassis adding all that much to the cost. It makes it very inconvenient for me to use for my whole system so Ill have to resort to using it on either the he6 setup or the studio monitors. Bad design.


 

 You always seems to be the one that likes to tell Schiit Audio that they have design issues with Freya. You were, and probably still are, upset that the tubes are recessed in the case. You called it a "stupid design flaw". Now you are complaining about the tube stage being powered all the time and call it a "Bad design".
  
 Maybe you would be happier with a different preamp!


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

But... You still have a wanted ad in the classifieds.


jozurr said:


> Its so stupid to let the tubes burn while you use the JFET mode. Tubes have a limited life and the good ones are costly. I wanted to use the tube side for my he6 setup, and the JFET mode for the studio monitors, but I cant have my expensive tubes keep burning while im using the studio monitors and not listening to them. Yanking them out every time every time isnt convenient or good for the tubes.
> 
> I understand keeping costs low, but I cant imagine the tubes power off button or option or the sockets being flush with the chassis adding all that much to the cost. It makes it very inconvenient for me to use for my whole system so Ill have to resort to using it on either the he6 setup or the studio monitors. Bad design.


----------



## Jozurr

winders said:


> You always seems to be the one that likes to tell Schiit Audio that they have design issues with Freya. You were, and probably still are, upset that the tubes are recessed in the case. You called it a "stupid design flaw". Now you are complaining about the tube stage being powered all the time and call it a "Bad design".
> 
> Maybe you would be happier with a different preamp!


 
  


soundsgoodtome said:


> But... You still have a wanted ad in the classifieds.


 
  
 Yes let's all of us just keep praising something and not point out any flaws in anything at all. I'm sure this is the kind of feedback schiit would want too. Simple praise or don't buy their product.
  
 Products are either designed with tube rolling in mind (flush sockets), or not (tubes hidden in chassis). Can you point me to some other middle ground designs like these? Do you feel like the tubes not turning off in JFET is not stupid? 
  
 As already mentioned, yes I am still looking to buy a Freya, but it will be a difficult to use it as an all-in-one preamp for everything on my chain, considering I want to use good NOS tubes and dont want to let them keep burning. Like I said, I'm not sure how much costs are added in a simple design to turn off tubes when not in use, or keeping the sockets flush. If costs indeed are THAT much of a problem, I maybe want them to come up with an ultimate pre-amp having even better features. 
  
 It's almost like you feel like the design is perfect in all sense or ways, which it is not, at least for me. Do you never point out flaws in products you own or want to own? Are you satified 100% with everything that you own, functionality/features wise? I don't get it.


----------



## winders

You could say:
  
 "I wish Freya had the tube sockets flush with the top of the case. Then I could use non-standard dimension 6SN7 tubes. Also, I wish Freya would turn the power of to the tube stage when that stage was not in operation." Maybe the guys at Schiit could think about this for Freya II.
  
 Instead of:
  
 "stupid design flaw"
  
 ​and:
  
 "Bad design"
  
 But hey, that's just me.


----------



## treynolds155

When I was researching the Freya I contacted them in regards to powering off the tubes while in other modes. They stated that it was being considered for future versions but is not likely to be changed in the short term. I'm thinking simply opening the darn tube holes a bit on the case would take care of socket position too. Not saying it's flawed, but a lot of folks seem to want these done.


----------



## Jozurr

winders said:


> You could say:
> 
> "I wish Freya had the tube sockets flush with the top of the case. Then I could use non-standard dimension 6SN7 tubes. Also, I wish Freya would turn the power of to the tube stage when that stage was not in operation." Maybe the guys at Schiit could think about this for Freya II.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yes I do find it stupid that this wasn't thought of as it can't not be a problem for someone using JFET (the tubes DO have limited life, even the new ones) or knowing that not all 6SN7 are straight bottle and that sockets should be flush anyway. The problem isnt the "non-standard" 6SN7 tubes alone. The problem is while rolling tubes you have to hold them by the glass to pull them out, which is not recommended for tubes, it is recommended that you handle them by the base, and secondly, the sharp edges of the holes scar the tube bases/tubes while coming out when you swap tubes if you aren't unreasonably careful as you sometimes have to wiggle a little to get them out (not a straight pull always depending on how good the sockets sit). This could have easily been avoided in the first go. Yes I do wish they take cues for this and fix it going forward. I will still buy the Freya. It just won't be as perfect as it could have been with some small tweaks as discussed.
  
 I appreciate that you don't find it as stupid as I do. Would you not design it better knowing these are things people face issues with? I'd like to know if they would have gone in with this design KNOWING these very well (Some issues come up when different people use it, and aren't necessarily thought of by a group of beta testers for example), and what would be the reasoning for it and maybe based on that I wouldn't find the design bad. @Jason Stoddard, any thoughts?
  
 We have different opinions about it based on our usability I suppose, and I'm happy to agree on that.


----------



## ToddRaymond

Yeah, and also, if you wanted to convert a single-ended source to a balanced output, you must use the tube buffer.  I wouldn't call it a bad design, by any means, but I agree that it has its shortcomings.  I have one on order, and I'll soon find out for myself whether or not it kicks arse in my system.  I'm sure it is indeed a great product for the money, but I too–like @brad1138–would've gladly paid another couple hundred for home theatre pass-through, and the ability to disable the tube buffer when in JFET mode.  It's as though it's so close to being a perfect product, yet so far.

 Also, I've seen _very_ little impressions of how this thing actually sounds!  I've read a lot of tube comparisons, and I suppose within some of those impressions a certain amount of insight into how good it sounds can be gleaned.  However, this thing is being marketed as a really, really good preamp that is NOT really, really expensive.  Therefore, in my mind, comparisons should be made between the Freya, and those costlier units.  To say that it's an improvement over the (albeit impressive) preamp capabilities of their existing headphone amps, is a wee bit underwhelming.

 EDIT:  Mostly I'm probably just stressed about my lack of finances at the moment.  I'm wondering if I shouldn't have just bought a Mjolnir 2 to use a preamp (and headphone amp) for now, as I'm planning on picking one up eventually for my nearby desktop anyway.  Oh well.


----------



## kazsud

jozurr said:


> Its so stupid to let the tubes burn while you use the JFET mode. Tubes have a limited life and the good ones are costly. I wanted to use the tube side for my he6 setup, and the JFET mode for the studio monitors, but I cant have my expensive tubes keep burning while im using the studio monitors and not listening to them. Yanking them out every time every time isnt convenient or good for the tubes.
> 
> I understand keeping costs low, but I cant imagine the tubes power off button or option or the sockets being flush with the chassis adding all that much to the cost. It makes it very inconvenient for me to use for my whole system so Ill have to resort to using it on either the he6 setup or the studio monitors. Bad design.


 
  
  
 Stealth 8s sound great with tubes. But I guess if you have mixing duties it wouldn't be a good idea.


----------



## Jozurr

kazsud said:


> Stealth 8s sound great with tubes. But I guess if you have mixing duties it wouldn't be a good idea.




I have the Sceptre S8. I use the Schiit sys with 2 inputs: one from my PC/Yggy to listen to them for music/tv shows, one directly from the mixer used as monitors. The output from sys goes to them. So with the press of a button on the sys, I switch between Yggy and mixer and control volume on either with Sys volume control.

I wouldnt actually mind having tubes in thee Yggy>S8 chain. With mixing however I would only want the JFET. The Freya can replace the sys, but when Im mixing which is a lot on some days, my tubes would be dying which sucks. Ive racked up some very good NOS tubes and Id hate to see them wasted, as they arent readily replaceable.


----------



## cskippy

I thought this was a TUBE preamp with optional JFET and passive modes?
  
 I have NO PROBLEM taking the tubes out if I were to only use JFET or passive for a long length of time, but I always prefer the tube output due to their holographic projection, better microdetail and improved dynamics.  
  
 I don't get people sometimes...


----------



## jseymour

Replaced a Jaton RC2000 with a Freya.  Compared to the Jaton, Freya's JFET offers better detail, but Tube Mode gives detail along with better tone.  My analogy is more meat on the bone. So I stay in Tube mode.
  
 I put in socket savers, which make the socket height flush with the top.  I recommend this for everyone as not only is tube removal/insertion much easier, but it takes heat away from the PC board.  That's always a good thing. 
  
 Mainly use 7N7 for Output and tube roll the gain.  Having fun tube rolling 6SN7, and with adapters 7N7, 6F8G and 6C8G. The 6F8G and 6C8Gs can be a little microphonic, particularly the 6C8G with it's higher gain.  The stock tubes were used once and were permanently put away.


----------



## Jozurr

cskippy said:


> I thought this was a TUBE preamp with optional JFET and passive modes?
> 
> I have NO PROBLEM taking the tubes out if I were to only use JFET or passive for a long length of time, but I always prefer the tube output due to their holographic projection, better microdetail and improved dynamics.
> 
> I don't get people sometimes...


 
  
 Who said this was a tube preamp with a passive and JFET mode? It could very well be the opposite. Even if it is, do you think the tubes running even in JFET mode is good?
  
 You don't understand that someone like me will not need tubes in the chain for mixing, and I switch back and forth between mixing and listening to music on my studio monitors? Or that yanking the tubes in and out degrades the tubes?   I do tube roll but that isn't going to be every day. 
  
 Essentially what you're saying is one should get a Freya and decide on what mode they're going to use it for an extended period, and not switch as fast as you'd like. Having multiple inputs and outputs and not have the ability to switch when needed without compromising on the quality of tubes, is kind of an oversight in my opinion.


----------



## cskippy

I'm just saying that they designed it first and foremost as a tube preamp, as that is the greatest amount of circuitry.  They choose an excellent, cheap, linear tube that can be used all the time.  It will last quite a while even if used for 8 hours everyday, like I do.  I also mix/master and cycle through the different output modes.  I prefer tube to the others but I appreciate Schiit putting the other output modes in there.  Replacing the stock tubes is $83.80 from TubeDirect.com.  
  
 That's really cheap for the amount of time you'll get out of the tubes.  Of course I would have loved if the tubes were turned off in other modes, but then you can't switch between modes, and turning off and on is far worse than pulling them once a week FYI.  A power button on the front would be great to, but I'll take the lower cost of entry and support Schiit any day for some minor inconvenience.


----------



## jseymour

Tubes can be easily removed and reinserted by the use of socket savers and adapters.  First use socket savers to get the socket flush with the Freya top.  If using 6SN7, put them in another socket saver.  If using 7N7, 6F8G or 6C8G, use the required adapter.  Now you never have to touch the tube.  You are grabbing the socket saver or adapter. No stress on the tube itself.


----------



## Jozurr

Outside of having the option of balanced, and JFET mode, has anyone compared SQ between Saga and Freya? using similar tubes? If yes, how better does the Freya sound compared to the Saga, if at all?


----------



## winders

Well, I haven't even ordered my Freya yet but I bought a matched quad set of NOS Sylvania 6SN7 WGTA tubes with brown base and chrome tops.
  
 I am also thinking about buying some brown base Raytheon 6SN7WGT tubes as well.
  
 Thoughts?


----------



## Pandahead

jozurr said:


> Outside of having the option of balanced, and JFET mode, has anyone compared SQ between Saga and Freya? using similar tubes? If yes, how better does the Freya sound compared to the Saga, if at all?


 

 ​The difference is substantial, at least for me it was. If you can afford to collect a variety of tubes to find the right synergy you will be rewarded. If not, the JFET mode alone is a noticeable step forward.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

An update on the electro Harmonix new stock eh6sn7 tubes running as a matched quad. Unless you have dark to warm phones it will be too bright for most neutral to bright phones to run all eh6sn7.

However, using the eh as buffer and running lush/warm tubes as drivers makes them to be very nice synergy. 

I've got a set of match Sylvania vt231 coming, we'll see how these sound with the eh6sn7 or maybe even as buffer tubes with the pavane.


----------



## theveterans

jozurr said:


> Outside of having the option of balanced, and JFET mode, has anyone compared SQ between Saga and Freya? using similar tubes? If yes, how better does the Freya sound compared to the Saga, if at all?


 
  
 Have Saga and Freya. IMHO, Saga with Tungsol reissue or 5692 tube > Freya JFET and stock 6H8C tubes. Freya with the same tubes sounded better, but a balanced DAC plays a big role with sound as well.
  
 To keep it simple, if you have the budget, Freya. But if you need the best out of the SE, Saga. Both will knock your socks off with the right tubes for your setup.


----------



## Jozurr

pandahead said:


> ​The difference is substantial, at least for me it was. If you can afford to collect a variety of tubes to find the right synergy you will be rewarded. If not, the JFET mode alone is a noticeable step forward.


 
  
 I have plenty of 6SN7 matched pairs so I think I'd like to mix and match some, eventually when I get the freya. I'm not entirely sure why people are buying new issue tubes, when many NOS tubes are similarly priced, reliable and easily trump the new issues sound wise.
  



theveterans said:


> Have Saga and Freya. IMHO, Saga with Tungsol reissue or 5692 tube > Freya JFET and stock 6H8C tubes. Freya with the same tubes sounded better, but a balanced DAC plays a big role with sound as well.
> 
> To keep it simple, if you have the budget, Freya. But if you need the best out of the SE, Saga. Both will knock your socks off with the right tubes for your setup.


 
  
 My Yggy and J2 are currently running in SE due to my Liquid Glass as a preamp being SE. What I was more concerned about is reading some opinions elsewhere which compared the Freya and the Saga and mentioned that unless one wants to go balanced, the Saga sounds better due to having a simpler path and circuitry. So for SE applications I'm still not sure if the Freya is better.
  


soundsgoodtome said:


> An update on the electro Harmonix new stock eh6sn7 tubes running as a matched quad. Unless you have dark to warm phones it will be too bright for most neutral to bright phones to run all eh6sn7.
> 
> However, using the eh as buffer and running lush/warm tubes as drivers makes them to be very nice synergy.
> 
> I've got a set of match Sylvania vt231 coming, we'll see how these sound with the eh6sn7 or maybe even as buffer tubes with the pavane.


  

 Yes I feel that the EH 6SN7 will be good trailing tubes, They are neutral sounding, but I can see how quads of those with cold sounding phones could sound bright.


----------



## cskippy

A benefit of Freya, is that you can use the balanced outputs of Yggy to Freya, and then single ended to the rest of your system.  Balanced output from Gumby/Yggy is better, let Freya do the Bal->Single ended conversion.


----------



## winders

cskippy said:


> A benefit of Freya, is that you can use the balanced outputs of Yggy to Freya, and then single ended to the rest of your system.  Balanced output from Gumby/Yggy is better, let Freya do the Bal->Single ended conversion.


 

 Or, better yet, go balanced from Yggy to Freya to your amp or amps! That is my plan with Vidar!!


----------



## cskippy

Absolutely!  Although some amps, like Zana Deux or Liquid Glass are single ended only.  I've been using an Jensen ISOMAX for the Bal->single ended conversion. I would use Freya, but my listening is sporadic, so I don't like to turn it on and off all the time.


----------



## Jozurr

cskippy said:


> A benefit of Freya, is that you can use the balanced outputs of Yggy to Freya, and then single ended to the rest of your system.  Balanced output from Gumby/Yggy is better, let Freya do the Bal->Single ended conversion.


 
  
 There are varying opinions about whether the balanced and SE out of the Yggy sound different on an SE amp for example, and if the balanced sounds better on a balanced amp, then is the difference really in the sound of the Yggy or the balanced mode of the amp sounding better.


----------



## winders

jozurr said:


> There are varying opinions about whether the balanced and SE out of the Yggy sound different on an SE amp for example, and if the balanced sounds better on a balanced amp, then is the difference really in the sound of the Yggy or the balanced mode of the amp sounding better.


 

 Based on what I have seen on an oscilloscope, the Yggy signal looks much cleaner using balanced cables. Balanced and differential signals should be cleaner than SE signals. Can one hear a difference is the question. I can't see how going from a balanced and differential DAC to a balanced and differential preamp to a balanced and differential amp could not be better than an SE configuration. There are just too many possible entry points for noise that the balanced and differential setup mitigates for it not to be better.


----------



## cskippy

Somewhere else on the internets showed that Gumby single ended had some weird behavior compared to it's balanced output.  This is regardless of what amp is hooked up to it.  Just a tiny detail but still an advantage to balanced on Gumby, and presumably Yggy as well.


----------



## Jozurr

winders said:


> Based on what I have seen on an oscilloscope, the Yggy signal looks much cleaner using balanced cables. Balanced and differential signals should be cleaner than SE signals. Can one hear a difference is the question. I can't see how going from a balanced and differential DAC to a balanced and differential preamp to a balanced and differential amp could not be better than an SE configuration. There are just too many possible entry points for noise that the balanced and differential setup mitigates for it not to be better.


 
  
 Yes the introduction of noise is a good point. Considering the Yggy and J2 are both balanced it only makes sense to have a balanced preamp in between.
  
  
 Question regarding the outputs, from the specs on their website:
  
Outputs: 1 XLR pair plus 2 RCA pairs, selectable via front switch or remote
  
 However, I couldn't find anything in the manual which indicates that the output is selectable? Seems a bit strange. How do you shuffle between outputs without unplugging cables? Does anyone know if the outputs are selectable or if they are all active at the same time?


----------



## cskippy

All outputs are active all the time.  One of the things I don't like about Schiit products.  I also wish they had two sets of XLR outputs, at least on Freya, Gumby and Yggy too would be great.


----------



## Jozurr

cskippy said:


> All outputs are active all the time.  One of the things I don't like about Schiit products.  I also wish they had two sets of XLR outputs, at least on Freya, Gumby and Yggy too would be great.


 
  
 Yeah so their specs page is incorrect I guess. Yeah I'd have liked two balanced outs too, one to the power amp and one to the powered monitors. Not sure how much sense it makes to have 5 inputs with 2 balanced ins and only 1 bal out. 
  
 Someone on another thread suggested using this:
  
 https://emotiva.com/products/accessories/xbal-1x2
  
 Seems like a great option, specially given the price.


----------



## cskippy

Yeah, I've though about a Y splitter as well, either cable, or hardware such as that Emotiva unit.


----------



## winders

cskippy said:


> Yeah, I've though about a Y splitter as well, either cable, or hardware such as that Emotiva unit.


 

 I am going to go with a cable as it will be less connections that way. Less connections less potential connection issues! Less expensive too!


----------



## firedog

http://www.ebay.com/itm/4PCS-8pin-K8A-Testing-Tube-Socket-Saver-For-EL34-5881-6SN7-KT88-5Z3P-5AR4-274B-/201089492161?hash=item2ed1de24c1:g:fj4AAOSwWxNYoEw0
  
 Will these fit the Freya?
  
Brand New 8Pin Testing Tube Socket Saver
 
 
Material:Bakelite
 
 
Quantity:4PCS
 
Diameter:33mm
 
The Height of Bakelite Part:25.5mm
 
The Height with Pin:36.5mm
 
Total Length:39mm
 
 
Condition:New
 
 
Suitable for KT88,KT66,6CA7,6V6,EL34,6SN7,5U4G,etc


----------



## bmanone

Firedog,
  
 Here's what I used http://www.partsconnexion.com/SOCKET-74489.html.  It fits without taking the cover off and is less expensive than the ones you linked to.  
  
 I was hoping the Freya would run cooler with the tubes above the chassis,  It does but only by a few degrees F. The tubes are much easier to change out.
  
 Thanks,
 Barry


----------



## eschell27

Just received Freya on monday... loving the synergy in my system. So far tube wise i have 4x Sylvania VT-231, 2x Sylvania 6sn7GT bad boys, 2x Ken-Rad VT-231 Black Glass, 2x RCA VT-231 Grey Glass. Lots of combos to try...Right now im listening to rca grey glass in gain stage and bad boys in cathode..of course i will have to try out all combos, but any suggestions on where to start?


----------



## Pandahead

eschell27 said:


> Just received Freya on monday... loving the synergy in my system. So far tube wise i have 4x Sylvania VT-231, 2x Sylvania 6sn7GT bad boys, 2x Ken-Rad VT-231 Black Glass, 2x RCA VT-231 Grey Glass. Lots of combos to try...Right now im listening to rca grey glass in gain stage and bad boys in cathode..of course i will have to try out all combos, but any suggestions on where to start?




Since you have only one quad I would live with that for a while. Then start by putting your differant pairs in the gain stage and see how things change. If you have genuine 1952 "bad boys" with 3 rivet holes they are awesome. And will play well as followers. I found the grey glass too lush for my taste. Definitely doesn't image as well as the "bad boys". The Ken-Rad has incredible bass. That's what I have experienced anyway. You have some great tubes and if you think the two "bad boys" in front of the Sylvania VT231 sounds better than the quad it's a guarantee you will want a quad of "bad boys". My experience so far is if you like a pair in the gain stage in front of your most neutral pair used as followers so you can get a feeling for them they are better as quads. You will be enjoying this.  Oh, don't forget about the RCA 5692 red base. The imaging that is possible from Freya is marvelous.


----------



## frankraindog

I've a maybe stupipd question, but I haven't found it anywhere in the thread.
  
 The sockets for tubes are talked about as
  
 gain stage / output buffer stage in some posts and as  input stage / output stage in others
  
 So frist:
  
 gain stage = input stage
 output buffer stage = output stage ?
  
 But as seeing this as obvious I wounder looking at my freya which row is what stage?
  
 front row = gain stage = input stage
  
 back row = output buffer stage = output stage  ?


----------



## cskippy

frankraindog said:


> I've a maybe stupipd question, but I haven't found it anywhere in the thread.
> 
> The sockets for tubes are talked about as
> 
> ...


 
 Fixed.


----------



## winders

The Freya manual on the Schiit Audio web site says:
  
 Right tubes = Differential voltage gain stage
 Left tubes = Cathode follower output stage


----------



## winders

Here is my first set of Freya tubes:


----------



## frankraindog

cskippy said:


> Fixed.


 
 thx, should have taken a more serious look at the manual which says:
  
_If you’re curious, the right tubes are for the differential voltage gain stage. The left tubes are for the cathode follower output stage. All tubes are of the same type on Freya. _


----------



## frankraindog

I've swapped out the stock tubes today complety and the sound improved really a lot.
 I put an matched pair of Shuguang new production in the right, so in the gain stage and at the left in the output stage the "better" Elektro Harmonix matched pair. Which was round about 100€ for a for my ears "dramatic" improvement in sound quality. An the tubes a not burned in yet.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

Sylvania vt231 in the gain stage had a nice lush mid, slight forward. But not a slow tube by far... EN6SN7 at the buffer stage.


----------



## eschell27

Is anyone able to verify this is a Sylvania 6sn7GT "bad "boy"? It sure looks like it to me from the pics i've seen.


----------



## jseymour

eschell27 - That looks identical to every picture I have seen of a Sylvania 3 hole Bad Boy. 
  
 I thought I would share what I am rolling at the moment as it sounds superb.  Tung-Sol 6F8G in Gain and NU 6F8G in output.  My other 6F8G is a RCA 6f8g, nice but mellow.  I have a Sylvania 6F8G matched pair coming next week.  If it sounds like my 1954 quad of 6SN7GTAs I will be very happy.  Another favorite combo is Ken-Rad 6C8G in output and 7N7 in gain. 6C8Gs are tricky in the gain position as they have more gain than the 6SN7/6F8Gs.  Ken-Rad has the strongest bass of all the tubes I have.  I want to get a pair of Ken-Rad 6SN7s to compare.  I suspect that 6F8G/6C8G/6SN7 from the same company have a similar sound.


----------



## Pandahead

eschell27 said:


> Is anyone able to verify this is a Sylvania 6sn7GT "bad "boy"? It sure looks like it to me from the pics i've seen.


 

 ​A quote from The Referance 6SN7 Thread here on Head-Fi:
  
 "General info:
 The "Bad Boys" Sylvania 6SN7-GT was made from late 1951, week 39 ("1/39") to early 1953, week 13 ("3/13").
 They have black T-plates -3 holes, Copper grids, Bottom getter, "polished" rectangular mica, green labels on black base."

 ​The year is a single digit above the two digit week. Looks good. They are very fine indeed.


----------



## Ashah

winders said:


> Here is my first set of Freya tubes:


 
 Debating too use Freya as a pre -amp between a custom built Odyssey Kismet amp.( still being built) as a tube buffer  or use the MJR2 which is also a headphone amp. I did have Lyr 2 during Xmas time but ended up keeping a Audeze Deckard love the sound of Deckard  with LCD 2 F. . The Freya or the Mjr 2 will go in the main system which has magi 1.7i a Parasound Halo Integrated  any thoughts on this would be appreciated


----------



## winders

ashah said:


> Debating too use Freya as a pre -amp between a custom built Odyssey Kismet amp.( still being built) as a tube buffer  or use the MJR2 which is also a headphone amp. I did have Lyr 2 during Xmas time but ended up keeping a Audeze Deckard love the sound of Deckard  with LCD 2 F. . The Freya or the Mjr 2 will go in the main system which has magi 1.7i a Parasound Halo Integrated  any thoughts on this would be appreciated


 

 My 2 channel system will have both a Freya and a Mjolnir 2. I want a true preamp to feed the amps in the 2 channel system. Plus, when I am sitting in my chair listening to the 2 channel system, I need a remote to control the volume. Freya has that.


----------



## winders

Here is another matched pair I will try:


----------



## firedog

ashah said:


> Debating too use Freya as a pre -amp between a custom built Odyssey Kismet amp.( still being built) as a tube buffer  or use the MJR2 which is also a headphone amp. I did have Lyr 2 during Xmas time but ended up keeping a Audeze Deckard love the sound of Deckard  with LCD 2 F. . The Freya or the Mjr 2 will go in the main system which has magi 1.7i a Parasound Halo Integrated  any thoughts on this would be appreciated





FYI-
I have a Kismet amp and am using a Freya as preamp. Sounds great. If you use the tube section of the Freya, it isn't functioning as a tube buffer, but as a pre with gain.


----------



## winders

And my final pair for a while:


----------



## belgiangenius

belgiangenius said:


>


 
  
 After another month of listening I am revising my rankings and comments a bit, ranked:
  
 CLASS A
 1.  Sylvania 6SN7W black base - simply awesome, all around
 2.  Kenrad VT-231 staggered plates - stunning bass, clear highs - simply awesome, almost tied with #1, but with slightly more visceral bass
 3.  RCA VT-231 grey glass - sweet, sweet midrange, slightly rolled off highs, but DAMN - nice for the right kind of music that emphasizes piano and vocals
 4.  Sylvania VT-231 - very, very neutral, a bit lacking in bass, good in buffer position
  
 CLASS B
 4.  CBS 5692 / RCA 5692 - these tubes sound the same to me and, based on the hype, are a big disappointment.  They do sound good but are flat, neutral, lacking bass, and just disappointing compared to #1 + #2. 
 5.  GE 6SN7GT side getter - 1950s - good overall, not detail monsters, but good
 6.  Sylvania 6SN7GT chrome dome top getter - super yawn, boring, but better than #7 and #8
  
 CLASS C
 7.  New production Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB - these were a disappointment to me, fairly balanced but kind of veiled and syrupy - these suck compared to everything above
 8.  Stock Russian tubes that came with Freya - these suck hard compared to everything above
  
 Still have not heard a new production tube that did not suck balls.   Is it really that hard to manufacture a tube for audiophiles?
  
 Got some Raytheon VT-231 flat plates on the way for my next evaluation.


----------



## frankraindog

Just a question about the socket savers. What's the best way to insert them into Freya? Open the Unit? The holes cut into Freya so insert the tubes are just big enough to insert the socket server straight from the top, there is not much space left at the sides.


----------



## jseymour

Do not open the unit.  The socket savers go straight in with no problem.  If you are going to tube roll, then buy extra socket savers for the tubes you are going to swap.  Along with the socket savers in my Freya, the tubes I swap if they are 6SN7 have socket savers on them or the other types have adapters.  That way I only touch the adapter/converter when I swap them.


----------



## eschell27

belgiangenius said:


> After another month of listening I am revising my rankings and comments a bit, ranked:
> 
> CLASS A
> 1.  Sylvania 6SN7W black base - simply awesome, all around
> ...


 
  
 Let me know if you are interested in selling any of the 5692's... i want to give them a try


----------



## brad1138

belgiangenius said:


> After another month of listening I am revising my rankings and comments a bit, ranked:
> 
> CLASS A
> 1. Sylvania 6SN7W black base - simply awesome, all around
> ...






I am still a noob when it comes to tubes. I purchased a set of 4 Tung-Sol NP, for my Freya. And although I think they sound nice (after warming up anyway), I am interested in trying something from "Class A" above.

I assume you are running all 4, but I have read that 1 of the tubes (per side) makes a big difference and the other doesn't. Would trying 2 of say the "Kenrad VT-231 staggered plates" in the "important position" be a good choice, or do I really need all 4?

Also, are there "Kenrad VT-231" that aren't "staggered plates"? How do I know if the seller isn't specific or doesn't know?

Thanks,
Brad

EDIT: I just pulled the trigger on 2 "Kenrad VT-231 staggered plates" from Ebay, for what I think is a good price, not much more than I paid each for my Tung Sols. The seller had over 1000 feedback @ 100% positive, and they said they were "staggered plates". Hopefully that was a good decision. Now, do I need to get 2 more or not...?


----------



## belgiangenius

brad1138 said:


> belgiangenius said:
> 
> 
> > After another month of listening I am revising my rankings and comments a bit, ranked:
> ...


 
  
 No, you do not need Quads.  Just take a neutral pair of tubes that aren't your favorites and use them in the buffer position.
  
 I have my Sylvania VT-231 in the buffer position.  Great tubes, but light on bass for my taste.  They seem to work fabulously in the buffer stage, though.
  
 When you get the Kenrads, listen to your system with the Tung-sol for a bit.  Then, swap the gain stage tubes for your KenRads and enjoy the much higher level of detail and bass.


----------



## brad1138

belgiangenius said:


> No, you do not need Quads.  Just take a neutral pair of tubes that aren't your favorites and use them in the buffer position.
> 
> I have my Sylvania VT-231 in the buffer position.  Great tubes, but light on bass for my taste.  They seem to work fabulously in the buffer stage, though.
> 
> When you get the Kenrads, listen to your system with the Tung-sol for a bit.  Then, swap the gain stage tubes for your KenRads and enjoy the much higher level of detail and bass.


 
  
 Thanks,
  
 Now I think I read the front 2 are the left channel and the rear 2 are the right. Which side is gain/buffer?


----------



## cskippy

That's correct.  Right side is gain, left is buffer.


----------



## winders

What is a reasonable price these days for a matched pair of real Sylvania 6SN7GT "Bad Boy" tubes?


----------



## brad1138

winders said:


> What is a reasonable price these days for a matched pair of real Sylvania 6SN7GT "Bad Boy" tubes?


 
  
 FWIW, I picked up a "MATCHING PAIR OF EXCELLENT TESTING KEN RAD VT-231/6SN7GT Test 2400/2500 & 2500/2600 where 1640 is min good on Hickok 539C tester" for $75 shipped. And they are supposed to be just about as good, according to belgiangenius. They are the "staggered plate".


----------



## winders

Are the good Kenrad VT-231 tubes the ones with smoked glass? Or does it matter as long as they have staggered plates with copper rods?


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

winders said:


> What is a reasonable price these days for a matched pair of real Sylvania 6SN7GT "Bad Boy" tubes?


 
  


brad1138 said:


> FWIW, I picked up a "MATCHING PAIR OF EXCELLENT TESTING KEN RAD VT-231/6SN7GT Test 2400/2500 & 2500/2600 where 1640 is min good on Hickok 539C tester" for $75 shipped. And they are supposed to be just about as good, according to belgiangenius. They are the "staggered plate".


 


 The non-ebay price, direct buy cost for used sought-after 6sn7 tubes seems to be $75/pr shipped. Now the amount of hours between each set, regardless of what the seller may imply, might be completely different from one another.


----------



## winders

soundsgoodtome said:


> The non-ebay price, direct buy cost for used sought-after 6sn7 tubes seems to be $75/pr shipped. Now the amount of hours between each set, regardless of what the seller may imply, might be completely different from one another.


 
  
 Where do I buy these tubes? What tubes are they?


----------



## brad1138

winders said:


> Are the good Kenrad VT-231 tubes the ones with smoked glass? Or does it matter as long as they have staggered plates with copper rods?


 
 Mine look like this, hope I got the "right" ones...


----------



## brad1138

soundsgoodtome said:


> The _*non-ebay*_ price, direct buy cost for used sought-after 6sn7 tubes seems to be $75/pr shipped. Now the amount of hours between each set, regardless of what the seller may imply, might be completely different from one another.


 
 I couldn't find the Ken Rads (#2) anywhere other than eBay...


----------



## winders

brad1138 said:


> Mine look like this, hope I got the "right" ones...


 

 I was about to hit "Buy It Now" for those when their status changed!


----------



## brad1138

winders said:


> I was about to hit "Buy It Now" for those when their status changed!


 
  
 Sorry about that... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
  
 I pulled the trigger on those faster than I usually do, I was worried about someone else grabbing them.


----------



## brad1138

When you see a tube set like this, generally on ebay:

 "*Tubes tested: 2475/2450, 2200/1900 Micromhos*"
  
 Do the unbalanced numbers make for a potentially unbalanced set? One louder than the other or something? And is the 2475 vs 2200 the bigger deal or the 2450 vs 1900? 
  
 Thanks, I am still a learning tube noob...
  
 P.S. the ones I just bought were: "Test 2400/2500 & 2500/2600" which I figured was pretty close, at least closer than a lot of them.


----------



## Jozurr

winders said:


> I was about to hit "Buy It Now" for those when their status changed!




The black glass and the transparent sound similar if theyre both staggered glass. Somehow the black glass ones sell for more.


----------



## brad1138 (Apr 26, 2017)

Just gambled a bit on what I was hoping was a Class A #1 (from belgiangenius review) It is either that or Class A #4. The listing said "bad boy" Which I thought referred to "A-1", I was guessing Bad Boy was just a nickname taken from "black base". I don't like the "lacking in bass" review of #4 (my room eats up bass and likes a bit of a base boost, which I get from my current Tung Sols). But I think I should be happy with anything from "Class A"

This was the listing http://www.ebay.com/itm/272609230681 Hope it is ok to link that here.

Those, along with the KenRad Staggered plates I just bought, should keep me happy for a while


----------



## Pandahead

There is a picture 2 pages back of a genuine 3 hole "52 bad boy" (late 1951 to early 1953) check the first page of "The Reference 6SN7 Thread" for more information. It's helped me a lot.


----------



## belgiangenius (Apr 29, 2017)

New addition:  new tube takes #1 spot!

My person ranking:

 CLASS A

1.  *Raytheon VT-231 flat plates* - OMG!!  This tube has it all.  Extended highs, prodigious bass, and a sweet midrange.  This is my new nirvana.  This tube is seriously underrated.
2.  Sylvania 6SN7W black base - simply awesome, all around
3.  Kenrad VT-231 staggered plates - stunning bass, clear highs - simply awesome, almost tied with #2, but with slightly more visceral bass
4.  RCA VT-231 grey glass - sweet, sweet midrange, slightly rolled off highs, but DAMN - nice for the right kind of music that emphasizes piano and vocals
5.  Sylvania VT-231 - very, very neutral, a bit lacking in bass, good in buffer position

CLASS B

6.  CBS 5692 / RCA 5692 - these tubes sound the same to me and, based on the hype, are a big disappointment.  They do sound good but are flat, neutral, lacking bass, and just disappointing compared to #1 - #3.
7.  GE 6SN7GT side getter - 1950s - good overall, not detail monsters, but good
8.  Sylvania 6SN7GT chrome dome top getter - super yawn, boring, but better than #9 and #10

CLASS C

9.  New production Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB - these were a disappointment to me, fairly balanced but kind of veiled and syrupy - these suck compared to everything above
10.  Stock Russian tubes that came with Freya - these suck hard compared to everything above

 Still have not heard a new production tube that did not suck balls.   Is it really that hard to manufacture a tube for audiophiles?

 Got some Sylvania 6SN7GT bad boys on the way for my next evaluation.


----------



## brad1138 (Apr 29, 2017)

How do you know which Raytheon VT-231s are the right kind?

Thanks


----------



## brad1138 (May 1, 2017)

EDIT: deleted


----------



## eschell27

Tonights tube combo... Follower: Ken-Rad Black Glass Staggered Plates Gain: Sylvania Bad Boys.

After an hour or so listening... two thumbs up


----------



## brad1138 (May 6, 2017)

Just had a chance to switch out to a pair of KEN-RAD Staggered plates in the gain stage and just plain wow. SO much better then the Tung Sols (NP) I had originally bought. I'll elaborate, after I get back to some more listening!


----------



## belgiangenius

Amazing how companies can't make new tubes, eh?  And to think those old tubes weren't produced for music and the new ones, well, they are aimed at audiophiles.  What?


----------



## brad1138

belgiangenius said:


> Amazing how companies can't make new tubes, eh?  And to think those old tubes weren't produced for music and the new ones, well, they are aimed at audiophiles.  What?



Yeah, I wonder what happens when we run out of WWII era tubes? Someone has to be able to figure it out...

Secondly, most say the buffer section really doesn't make (much of) a difference and that any decent tube will do there. Is there a debate on that? Or is it that it does make a difference, it is just much more subtle than the gain stage?


----------



## RoundRound

brad1138 said:


> When you see a tube set like this, generally on ebay:
> 
> "*Tubes tested: 2475/2450, 2200/1900 Micromhos*"
> 
> ...



I second taht - also interested to hear the answer - thank you!


----------



## KoshNaranek

belgiangenius said:


> Amazing how companies can't make new tubes, eh?  And to think those old tubes weren't produced for music and the new ones, well, they are aimed at audiophiles.  What?



Actually Most New tubes are made for Guitar Players. That is where the volume of the market is. With Schiit Selling High volumes of Tube Based amps, this may change. The Prices of 6SN7 tubes have already been impacted by about a 20% price increase.


----------



## rhgg2 (May 8, 2017)

brad1138 said:


> When you see a tube set like this, generally on ebay:
> 
> "*Tubes tested: 2475/2450, 2200/1900 Micromhos*"
> 
> Do the unbalanced numbers make for a potentially unbalanced set? One louder than the other or something? And is the 2475 vs 2200 the bigger deal or the 2450 vs 1900?


The 6SN7 is a double triode tube, so really two active components stuffed into one glass envelope. 2475/2450 are the numbers for the two triodes in the first tube, and 2200/1900 the numbers for the two triodes in the second tube.

In the Freya, each tube drives one channel. So imbalance between the numbers for the first and the second tube could lead to channel imbalance. For the two tubes you describe, if you average the two numbers for each tube, you are then comparing 2463 vs 2050 which is 20% or about 1.5db imbalance. Whether or not that is audible to you depends on your hearing. I usually try to get all four numbers within 10% of each other, and have never heard any imbalance.

The other things to note carefully is the relation between the given numbers and the "minimum good" numbers. These will vary depending on the tester being used, but should be stated in the item description. If the numbers are close to that minimum value (say within 15%) then the tube could be nearing the end of its life. Test results tend to stay stable for a long time and then suddenly drop, so a low score is potentially bad. However, a low-testing tube could sound great and last for ages. So if one comes up at a price you can't refuse, it could be reasonable to take a punt on it. Just don't pay top dollar, or even medium dollar, for one.

In the end, it's unclear that these test results are much more than a marketing tool. It's important that the tube have no shorts or other electrical faults so that it doesn't damage your gear, but beyond that how much faith you put in the numbers is more a matter of your psychological disposition than anything else. Even if you are diligent about test results, be prepared for a non-zero failure rate in your purchases. Buy from someone with a reasonable return policy and be willing to take advantage of it.


----------



## Jozurr

Have the Freyas started shipping again? The shipping date was previously 15 April and now it's 15th May. Anyone has their shipped if their order was placed in April?


----------



## gldadis

Jozurr said:


> Have the Freyas started shipping again? The shipping date was previously 15 April and now it's 15th May. Anyone has their shipped if their order was placed in April?


Haven't heard a word directly since late April when they forecast about a 2-week delay.  Then the site was updated to the week of May 15.  Hope they are on track for this one.


----------



## Jozurr

gldadis said:


> Haven't heard a word directly since late April when they forecast about a 2-week delay.  Then the site was updated to the week of May 15.  Hope they are on track for this one.



Always the same story with their dates. I hope they ship them soon.


----------



## mtkupp

gldadis said:


> Haven't heard a word directly since late April when they forecast about a 2-week delay.  Then the site was updated to the week of May 15.  Hope they are on track for this one.



I got this from Laura in customer service last week:

"If everything continues as scheduled, we should hopefully have them back in production before the end of the month."

Hopefully, everything continues as scheduled. If your waiting for parts it's out of your control.


----------



## Jozurr

Anyone has a pair of Hytron 5692 to sell if they're not using it?


----------



## Jozurr

gldadis said:


> Haven't heard a word directly since late April when they forecast about a 2-week delay.  Then the site was updated to the week of May 15.  Hope they are on track for this one.



Apparently not. There are further delays and now they will ship by end of the month, if all goes well.


----------



## Mr Rick

Jozurr said:


> Always the same story with their dates. I hope they ship them soon.



Just got notification. Looks like mine will ship today.


----------



## MOFOfunk

Does anyone Have any experience with these two tubes? 

Sylvania 6SN7W made in USA. 

General Electric "Electronic Tube" 6SN7GT made in USA. 

Where do I find a compiled tube list with sound impressions? 
Is there any good shops for buying tubes in mailand europe? 
I guess it would be a total nogo to pair them in a freya?


----------



## winders

I just received my Freya and have rolled in a matched quad of NOS Sylvania 6SN7 WGTA tubes:






I will use this setup with my powered monitors until Vidar is released and I buy some floor standing speakers. Well, I have some other 6SN7 matched pairs I will roll into the gain stage to see what I think.

Fun!


----------



## MOFOfunk

winders said:


> I just received my Freya and have rolled in a matched quad of NOS Sylvania 6SN7 WGTA tubes:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sounds fun. Keep the sound impressions coming. 
What other 6sn7's will you be trying out?


----------



## winders

MOFOfunk said:


> Sounds fun. Keep the sound impressions coming.
> What other 6sn7's will you be trying out?



Let's see, here is what I have:

4 - Sylvania 6SN7WGTA (Brown Base, Chrome Top)
2 - RCA CRC JAN 6SN7GT VT-231 (Smoked Glass)
2 - Raytheon 6SN7WGT (1952)
2 - Sylvania JAN CHS 6SN7W (Black Base, Short Bottle, Chrome Top from 1940's)
2 - Sylvania 6SN7GT (Gray Plate, Solid Bottom D Getter, a 2-hole version of the "Bad Boy", from the late 40's)


----------



## Pandahead

MOFOfunk said:


> Does anyone Have any experience with these two tubes?
> 
> Sylvania 6SN7W made in USA.
> 
> ...



Check out  "The Reference 6SN7 Thread" here on head-fi, the first page is super, as well as earlier pages here. The Sylvania 6SN7W metal base so far for me is the biggest, widest, deepest, tallest, best focused detailed imaging tube yet. The short bottle doesn't have what the tall bottle does. Tung-Sol round plates are second. The late 1951to early 1953 Sylvania 3 hole Bad Boys (see the research about this tube on page one of the reference thread) are next followed by RCA 5692. Actually they are all pretty magical compared to new production. Just my musing with my system


----------



## MOFOfunk

Thats good info Panda. Checking out the reference thread. Its such a (another) vast market to get my head around for one who never even held a tube. Something to do while waiting for Freya eh. Unfortunately the prices does not allow me to buy them all and try them out for myself. So I'm greatful that you guys are sharing experiences. 
Are the differences subtle or significant? Guess thats depending on how resolving the rest of the system is. 
It seems like there is varying opinions on the same tubes. Is that mostly due to personal preferences or different variations and conditions of the same tube or .. 
Hearing is a funny thing. I tend to focus on the instruments especially the bass and rythm figures. And rarely listen to the lyrics. For some it's opposite and it's probably just the few who registers it all. 
Not even sure what i'm going for but I do like a good bass sound. Timing is also very impotant since I'm mostly listening to rythmic music. But im also very interested in experiencing the big soundstage you're talking about. And I do like details and being able to discern what the different instruments are doing. And I seriously listen to all genres except mainstream pop and rock.


----------



## winders

belgiangenius said:


> New addition:  new tube takes #1 spot!
> 
> My person ranking:
> 
> ...



I finally received my Freya yesterday.

I swear I am not trying to copy you. But here are the tubes I have now:

4 - Sylvania 6SN7WGTA (Brown Base, Chrome Top)
2 - RCA CRC JAN 6SN7GT VT-231 (Smoked Glass)
2 - Raytheon 6SN7WGT (Brown Base, Opposing Black Flat Plates, Copper Rods, 1952)
2 - Sylvania JAN CHS 6SN7W (Black Base, Short Bottle, Chrome Top, 1940's)

And on the way:

2 - Raytheon 6SN7GT, VT-231 (Opposing Black Flat Plates, Copper Rods, Reinforcing Rods, Printed Logos, early 1945)
2 - Ken-Rad VT-231 (Silver Printed Logos, Black Flat Plates, Copper Rods, Smoked Glass, November 1944)
2 - Sylvania 6SN7GT (Gray Plate, Solid Bottom D Getter, Late 40's)

It will be interesting to see if my impressions match yours. I will say that, so far, I like the Sylvania JAN CHS 6SN7W and Raytheon 6SN7WGT tubes the best in the gain stage. I think the Sylvania 6SN7WGTA are great in the output buffer stage. I am not yet a fan of the RCA VT-231 smoked glass tubes in the gain stage. I will give then some more time latter.


----------



## Seamaster

You guys are just killing good NOS 6SN7 tubes here, four tubes (2+2) per this lowly machine......


----------



## winders

Seamaster said:


> You guys are just killing good NOS 6SN7 tubes here, four tubes (2+2) per this lowly machine......



There lesser quality tubes end up in the output buffer stage. We only need the really good tubes in the gain stage.


----------



## acguitar84

winders said:


> I finally received my Freya yesterday.



Leaving all of the "tube rolling" out of it (as much as possible anyway) how do you like the Freya? What are your impressions of it? I'm thinking of getting one for my downstairs computer/powered monitor PC. Thanks!


----------



## belgiangenius

winders said:


> I finally received my Freya yesterday.
> 
> I swear I am not trying to copy you. But here are the tubes I have now:
> 
> ...



Not all RCA VT-231 are created equal.  The earlier ones are really dark glass and the later ones seem to be lighter smoked glass.  I have both.  The darker ones are better.

But, these tubes are a lush, dark sound, so may not be to everyone's taste.


----------



## winders (Jun 2, 2017)

acguitar84 said:


> Leaving all of the "tube rolling" out of it (as much as possible anyway) how do you like the Freya? What are your impressions of it? I'm thinking of getting one for my downstairs computer/powered monitor PC. Thanks!



Until Vidar comes out and I pick up some floor standing speakers, I am using Freya with my nearfield powered monitors. I hadn't been in a hurry to buy a Freya because I was content using my Mjolnir 2 as a preamp. I had been told that the MJ2 was not a very good preamp but I figured that it was more than adequate. I used great tubes and I was enjoying the sound I was getting.

Well, it only took about 5 minutes using Freya to figure out that either the MJ2 was a crappy preamp or Freya was an incredible preamp. Freya offered a much more realistic soundstage with much better vocal and instrument separation. The soundstage was no wider but was taller and had more depth. The music had a more immersive 3D effect that sounded more realistic. I could play lower volume levels yet still have the music sound clean and clear. This is a cliche around here, but it was as if a veil had been lifted at lower volumes and there was increased detail and clarity at higher volume levels. Both the micro and macrodynamics are better too.

I have zero desire to use my MJ2 as a preamp now. However, it is still an incredibly good headphone amplifier!


----------



## winders

belgiangenius said:


> Not all RCA VT-231 are created equal.  The earlier ones are really dark glass and the later ones seem to be lighter smoked glass.  I have both.  The darker ones are better.
> 
> But, these tubes are a lush, dark sound, so may not be to everyone's taste.



The date codes on my RCA VT-231 are "V2E" which is 1945. I have them in my Freya right now. I am giving them some time to burn in before I get too critical of them. They are starting to sound better...or I am getting used to their sound!


----------



## Pandahead

winders said:


> There lesser quality tubes end up in the output buffer stage. We only need the really good tubes in the gain stage.



I think when you find those two tubes that make magic in your system you will find that four are even more magical.


----------



## GregS

Hi guys, I am a new member here and received my Freya yesterday. This is a great little pre! I have some questions regarding the Tube positions. My manual states that the front two slots are the gain stage while the posterior two slots are the buffers! This contradicts the PDF on the Schiit website! I emailed Nick about this and am yet to hear from him. I bought a quad of tung sols from Upscale audio and one or several of the tubes is crackling so I have to figure out which ones are the culprit and knowing which slots are for what would greatly help. Anyone here know what is going on? Is my book misprinted or was the earlier one a mistake? Have they changed the socket locations since mine is the latest batch? 
Regards


----------



## winders

Pandahead said:


> I think when you find those two tubes that make magic in your system you will find that four are even more magical.



The output buffer stage and the gain stage are quite different so it would make sense that different tubes would be a better choice. Plus, the output buffer is far less affected by tube choice than the gain stage. 

Maybe someone with hardware design experience can provide some insight.


----------



## winders

GregS said:


> Hi guys, I am a new member here and received my Freya yesterday. This is a great little pre! I have some questions regarding the Tube positions. My manual states that the front two slots are the gain stage while the posterior two slots are the buffers! This contradicts the PDF on the Schiit website! I emailed Nick about this and am yet to hear from him. I bought a quad of tung sols from Upscale audio and one or several of the tubes is crackling so I have to figure out which ones are the culprit and knowing which slots are for what would greatly help. Anyone here know what is going on? Is my book misprinted or was the earlier one a mistake? Have they changed the socket locations since mine is the latest batch?
> Regards



Right side tubes are the gain stage tubes.


----------



## GregS (Jun 2, 2017)

That's what the online PDF states but here is the text from my manual:

http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x263/svetkt88/1496430207777671619852_zpsxjm2k96x.jpg


----------



## Pandahead

winders said:


> The output buffer stage and the gain stage are quite different so it would make sense that different tubes would be a better choice. Plus, the output buffer is far less affected by tube choice than the gain stage.
> 
> Maybe someone with hardware design experience can provide some insight.



Of my favorite tubes a quad always sounds best to me. With a quad the followers reinforce the qualities that you like about the input tubes. And it is true you can temper the inputs by using a different pair for the followers, but I haven't found a combo that is an improvement yet. It may be worth trying so as to see for yourself or not if you find the right  tubes for you. You can try out a new pair of tubes in front of your most neutral followers to determine if you want a quad or not, that's certainly a cost effective way to go about it.


----------



## GregS

Ok, I figured out which Tube was defective and this helped me see that my new manual is incorrect. The front row is left channel back is for the right. Right side is the gain where the better Tubes should go?


----------



## acguitar84

winders said:


> Until Vidar comes out and I pick up some floor standing speakers, I am using Freya with my nearfield powered monitors. I hadn't been in a hurry to buy a Freya because I was content using my Mjolnir 2 as a preamp. I had been told that the MJ2 was not a very good preamp but I figured that it was more than adequate. I used great tubes and I was enjoying the sound I was getting.
> 
> Well, it only took about 5 minutes using Freya to figure out that either the MJ2 was a crappy preamp or Freya was an incredible preamp. Freya offered a much more realistic soundstage with much better vocal and instrument separation. The soundstage was mo wider but was taller and had more depth. The music had a more immersive 3D effect that sounded more realistic. I could play lower volume levels yet still have the music sound clean and clear. This is a cliche around here, but it was as if a veil had been lifted at lower volumes and there was increased detail and clarity at higher volume levels. Both the micro and macrodynamics are better too.
> 
> I have zero desire to use my MJ2 as a preamp now. However, it is still an incredibly good headphone amplifier!


That's really awesome to read! I've using the Jotunheim as a preamp on both PC rigs, but I might think of adding Freya (replacing the Jotunheims) to both of my work and home PC rigs. I'll start with the home rig though. I wonder if others here, that have replaced a Jotunheim as a preamp on a system with a Freya have noticed as dramatic of an improvement as you have from Mjolnir 2 to Freya. I'm going to start feeding my Yggdrasil's with AES/EBU via Lynx soundcard(s) as well, so I'm hoping to see some nice SQ gains.


----------



## Pandahead

GregS said:


> Ok, I figured out which Tube was defective and this helped me see that my new manual is incorrect. The front row is left channel back is for the right. Right side is the gain where the better Tubes should go?



Yes that's it. Welcome to the club of trial and error.  They really need to pull those manuals. I got one of the first Freya's and emailed them about the mistake the first part of January! Oh well, we are all a confused bunch. Oh and a disclaimer, that the supplied tubes are just to get you going and will most likely be noisy! The thing is Freya is flat out awesome sounding!


----------



## eschell27

Yes i had the same issue with the manual that came with my freya a month ago, said front and back instead of left and right... the printed copies we received are incorrect... the copy online saying left and right is still correct.


----------



## MOFOfunk

Pandahead said:


> Of my favorite tubes a quad always sounds best to me. With a quad the followers reinforce the qualities that you like about the input tubes. And it is true you can temper the inputs by using a different pair for the followers, but I haven't found a combo that is an improvement yet. It may be worth trying so as to see for yourself or not if you find the right  tubes for you. You can try out a new pair of tubes in front of your most neutral followers to determine if you want a quad or not, that's certainly a cost effective way to go about it.


Trying to limit my research time on tubes. So following in the footsteps og the great Baldr.
*Which set of quad tubes would you guys bring with your Freya to a deserted island?* (A healthy ulimited power supply is available. Lets say form an abandoned tidal generator)
_You can only bring one set. _


----------



## Pandahead

acguitar84 said:


> That's really awesome to read! I've using the Jotunheim as a preamp on both PC rigs, but I might think of adding Freya (replacing the Jotunheims) to both of my work and home PC rigs. I'll start with the home rig though. I wonder if others here, that have replaced a Jotunheim as a preamp on a system with a Freya have noticed as dramatic of an improvement as you have from Mjolnir 2 to Freya. I'm going to start feeding my Yggdrasil's with AES/EBU via Lynx soundcard(s) as well, so I'm hoping to see some nice SQ gains.



For me Saga with the right tube sounds better than Jotty or Mjolnir 2 by a little bit placed in the same system as preamp. Freya in JFET is noticably better than those 3, no contest, and with the right tubes it's on steroids as someone else said a few months back.


----------



## GregS

Pandahead said:


> Yes that's it. Welcome to the club of trial and error.  They really need to pull those manuals. I got one of the first Freya's and emailed them about the mistake the first part of January! Oh well, we are all a confused bunch. Oh and a disclaimer, that the supplied tubes are just to get you going and will most likely be noisy! The thing is Freya is flat out awesome sounding!



I agree with you and am amazed by how good this realtively inexpensive device is performing! I fully expected the stock tubes to be less than optimal and that's why I had that quad of tung sols waiting though one is bad. Even with a pair of the Tung sols in and the stocks on the left this thing sounds great right now. I've yet to own a piece of Tube kit that came with decent tubes from the factory. I am running a Krell SACD Standard to the Freya to a Pass Labs x250.5 into a pair of Tyler acoustics D 20s.. So far I am happy.


----------



## winders

acguitar84 said:


> That's really awesome to read! I've using the Jotunheim as a preamp on both PC rigs, but I might think of adding Freya (replacing the Jotunheims) to both of my work and home PC rigs. I'll start with the home rig though. I wonder if others here, that have replaced a Jotunheim as a preamp on a system with a Freya have noticed as dramatic of an improvement as you have from Mjolnir 2 to Freya. I'm going to start feeding my Yggdrasil's with AES/EBU via Lynx soundcard(s) as well, so I'm hoping to see some nice SQ gains.



Some people, that need a headphone amp, are using Freya as a preamp for Jotuheim. They are seeing improvements in the sound quality they get with their headphones.


----------



## winders

It's too bad, but the pair of Sylvania JAN CHS 6SN7W (Black Base, Short Bottle, Chrome Top, 1940's) tubes that I have are microphonic and make consistent static noises when nothing is playing. I really like the sound of these tubes in the gain stage. I will be looking for another pair!


----------



## Pandahead

winders said:


> It's too bad, but the pair of Sylvania JAN CHS 6SN7W (Black Base, Short Bottle, Chrome Top, 1940's) tubes that I have are microphonic and make consistent static noises when nothing is playing. I really like the sound of these tubes in the gain stage. I will be looking for another pair!



If you're really lucky some or most noise might diminish with use. Hopefully the next pair will be silent, and if you can't return them and they do improve, try them as followers, they might perform fine there. Hope it works out.


----------



## winders

Pandahead said:


> If you're really lucky some or most noise might diminish with use. Hopefully the next pair will be silent, and if you can't return them and they do improve, try them as followers, they might perform fine there. Hope it works out.



I bought these tubes from circatubes on eBay. He goes by that name here as well. He has been stellar to deal with. He suggested I clean the pins and that helped quite a bit when I first got the tubes. When the static problem came up, he said I could send the tubes back if I wanted and he would help with the postage. I figured I would clean the pins again more thoroughly to see if the static problem would go away. I guess I didn't do a great job of cleaning the pins the first time as the static problem is either gone or virtually gone. So, I am keeping the tubes as they sound fantastic.

I can highly recommend buying tubes from circatubes! I will again!!


----------



## MOFOfunk

That's a top tip right there!


----------



## belgiangenius

winders said:


> The date codes on my RCA VT-231 are "V2E" which is 1945. I have them in my Freya right now. I am giving them some time to burn in before I get too critical of them. They are starting to sound better...or I am getting used to their sound!



Those should be good ones.


----------



## winders

belgiangenius said:


> Those should be good ones.



They are coming around. I just like the Sylvania 6SN7W tubes better. The static has come back on those but not as bad as before. I like them so much I will ignore it.

I bought a quad set of NOS Sylvania 6SN7GT "Bad Boys". The real ones...not the 2 hole variety. I am done buying tubes now!!


----------



## trappedintime

Can anyone tell me how they use the Freya with Ragnarok? I'm considering purchasing a Freya, but not really sure if it makes sense with my Ragnarok powering my ELAC UB5's and Elears. Is there improvements to gain with the tube preamp coupled with SS integrated? Is there added noise or distortion by double amping? Where should I set the volume pot on the Ragnarok?


----------



## Pandahead

winders said:


> They are coming around. I just like the Sylvania 6SN7W tubes better. The static has come back on those but not as bad as before. I like them so much I will ignore it.
> 
> I bought a quad set of NOS Sylvania 6SN7GT "Bad Boys". The real ones...not the 2 hole variety. I am done buying tubes now!!



I really think you like these, they impart a romantic sweetness to their fine imaging and soundstage. That's about the best way I can describe them. Of course there's a lot of things that come into play, but they are right fine tubes


----------



## winders

belgiangenius said:


> New addition:  new tube takes #1 spot!
> 
> My person ranking:
> 
> ...



Okay, I have had some time to listen to some tubes and form some impressions. I will follow your format as I have no better idea. This is a bit unfair to the tubes because I have not given any of the them enough hours to fully burn in. Here it goes:

Class A:

1. Raytheon VT-231 (Opposing Black Flat Plates ) - Best overall sound. Nice clarity and detail everywhere. Bass is strong but not over done. Soundstage is deep and has good height. 
2. Ken-Rad VT-231 (Black “Staggered” Flat Plates, Copper Rods, Black Glass) - Very close to #1. I almost made it co-#1. The soundstage is not quite as deep.
3. Sylvania 6SN7W (Black Base, Short Bottle) A step below #1 and #2. This tube sounds great until I listen to #1 and #2. Less clarity up top and the bass in not as strong. 


Class B:

4. Raytheon 6SN7WGT (Brown Base, Opposing Black Flat Plates) Not as good as the VT-231 but is very good overall. Maybe a good output buffer stage tube for the Raytheon VT-231.
5. RCA VT-231 (Grey Glass) - This tube sounds good but not great. Too much roll off in the highs and lack of detail in the bass.
6. Sylvania 6SN7GT (2 Hole version of "Bad Boy") - Same construction as Syl VT-231. I bought these for the output buffer stage but they sound quite good in the gain stage.
7. Sylvania 6SN7WGTA (Brown Base, 1966) - Great in output buffer stage but a little boring in the gain stage.

Class C:

8. The OE Russian tubes.

I bought another matched pair of the Raytheon VT-231 (Opposing Black Flat Plates) off eBay for $70. That's a steal!!

I have Sylvania 6SN7GT (3-hole Black Plates) "Bad Boy" tubes coming too. I can't wait to see if the hype is real or not.


----------



## winders

I am rolling with two of the 6H8C tubes that came with my Freya in the output buffer stage along with a pair of Sylvania 6SN7W tubes in the gain stage. I will give the 6H8C some time to burn-in and then listen to them more critically. But so far, they seem just fine. What have you guys found?


----------



## Mike Thompson

I have a new Freya as of about a week ago. I'm very happy with it. I was a little disappointed by the size of the holes for the tubes. The ones I was planning on using do not fit. I do, however, have some tube savers coming in which will hopefully solve the problem. In the mean time I'm using a new pair of Northern Electric 6SN7's on the gain side and still using the stock tubes on the other side. The Northern Electric's (Canadian Made) are new and require a little burn-in time but already are a significant upgrade over the stock tubes. I'm really happy with my Freya.


----------



## acguitar84

Mike Thompson said:


> I have a new Freya as of about a week ago. I'm very happy with it. I was a little disappointed by the size of the holes for the tubes. The ones I was planning on using do not fit. I do, however, have some tube savers coming in which will hopefully solve the problem. In the mean time I'm using a new pair of Northern Electric 6SN7's on the gain side and still using the stock tubes on the other side. The Northern Electric's (Canadian Made) are new and require a little burn-in time but already are a significant upgrade over the stock tubes. I'm really happy with my Freya.


I saw those Northern Electric tubes at the tube store for 90 bucks a piece. They fit ok into the Freya? I'm thinking of a set myself for the gain side, then maybe tung sol on the other side. Or maybe just stick with stock tubes on the other side.


----------



## Mike Thompson

Mike Thompson said:


> I have a new Freya as of about a week ago. I'm very happy with it. I was a little disappointed by the size of the holes for the tubes. The ones I was planning on using do not fit. I do, however, have some tube savers coming in which will hopefully solve the problem. In the mean time I'm using a new pair of Northern Electric 6SN7's on the gain side and still using the stock tubes on the other side. The Northern Electric's (Canadian Made) are new and require a little burn-in time but already are a significant upgrade over the stock tubes. I'm really happy with my Freya.




I paid a little more than that but it was Canadian dollars. They fit just fine. The bottom of the bottle just clears the metal.


----------



## Sam Lord

I have one important question and two unimportant comments.  All help appreciated!

1) Will the Freya or Saga operate AT ALL without tubes in place? No mention in either manual but needed to ask, but I read this someplace once.  Especially intrigued if the Freya FET buffer would work with nothing in the sockets.

2) Surprised that all the love for the RCA 5691 tubes has disappeared, I thought these were a favorite choice of Mike's.

3) Similarly, there was lots of praise for the new Tung-sols, now they are spawn of hell.  And the Northern Electric tubes from Canada: nobody mentioned them for months, so I discounted them.  Do those folks make any other good tubes?  Will these like ALL new tubes lose their luster the same way?  I'm agnostic about new vs. old, though I'm not going to buy a bundle of cheap old tubes only to test, and sort, ad infinitum, for problem samples like the experts.  Life is too short.


----------



## Mike Thompson

Don't take my word for it but I'm pretty sure you can run the Freya without the tubes in place. It would certainly allow you to leave it on full time if you wanted to. 

I'm very happy - so far - with the Northern Electric tubes I recently purchased. They sound great and (if you care) look great. 

Mike


----------



## winders

Sam Lord said:


> I have one important question and two unimportant comments.  All help appreciated!
> 
> 1) Will the Freya or Saga operate AT ALL without tubes in place? No mention in either manual but needed to ask, but I read this someplace once.  Especially intrigued if the Freya FET buffer would work with nothing in the sockets.
> 
> ...



1. Yes, you can run Freya with no tubes and use either the passive or JFET buffer modes.

2. No love or hate here. I have not had the chance to listen to them. I was kind of hoping to find someone who was not impressed with them and convince them too let me try them with the option to buy.  

3. I highly doubt any of the more expensive new tubes are better than the NOS tubes we can get for the same price or less.


----------



## cskippy

I've been using Freya without tubes for the last two weeks leaving it on 24/7.  It stays nice and cool and sounds great in passive or JFET mode, although I prefer passive.  I'm still undecided on which tubes I want to get and find passive has the most transparent sonics compared to stock tubes or JFET.


----------



## winders

If anyone here likes Ken-Rad VT-231 tubes, this seller has some good prices for matched pairs:

http://stores.ebay.com/totempole-99...H_TitleDesc=1&_fsub=7336610014&_sid=514927004

They are from India. I just bought a pair of clear glass Ken-Rad VT-231 tubes from them for $84 shipped. They don't have a lot of history on eBay but all the feedback is positive. I asked a question and had it answered quickly with the information I needed.

I verified that the tubes I ordered had the staggered plates and copper rods. These are WWII vintage. The clear glass tubes are the same sonically as the black glass tubes.

I'll post back about this with any issues or when I get the tubes.


----------



## Pandahead

Sam Lord said:


> I have one important question and two unimportant comments.  All help appreciated!
> 
> 1) Will the Freya or Saga operate AT ALL without tubes in place? No mention in either manual but needed to ask, but I read this someplace once.  Especially intrigued if the Freya FET buffer would work with nothing in the sockets.
> 
> ...



I still highly recommend Mike's RCA red base 5692 recommendation because mine are really fine, but like he said there may be some played out ones that are getting sold. I still stick by my old posts. Here's the new production: 2 Robert Shaw CV181, 2 Psvane best matched CV181 -T2's, 4 matched TungSol. They don't have the sound stage with precise imaging and dynamics in the listening room that the old production that I have serve up. It would be nice if they did. That's just how things have worked out for me so far. As far as  cost some of the current production can get pricey too. I wonder what old production prices will be like in 5 years though. (2 of the 6H8C that came with Freya made so much noise they were unusable)

The JFET buffer is really fine. If  tubes aren't an improvement or desire there's always that, so it's a nice option.


----------



## Sam Lord (Jun 8, 2017)

Thanks to Mike, cskippy, winders, and (just now) Pandahead!  The no-tube operation feature is very useful and ought to be added to the manuals.  I have an unopened Saga purchased for a gift, and will try to see if passive mode and the remote volume function without tubes.  A Freya is on its way for me .  I have double socket savers for each socket, since I bought some fancy tubes.  So I expect to run Freya without tubes fairly often because the buffer mode is well-liked and sometimes I'm not in a tube mood.  Thanks winders for the NE tube report: I like to look at new tubes because a manufacturer has the best means of matching tubes, given the quantities.  I agree about the general quality of NOS tubes, but again I don't want to spend a lot of time troubleshooting and measuring.



Mike Thompson said:


> Don't take my word for it but I'm pretty sure you can run the Freya without the tubes in place. It would certainly allow you to leave it on full time if you wanted to.
> I'm very happy - so far - with the Northern Electric tubes I recently purchased. They sound great and (if you care) look great.  Mike





cskippy said:


> I've been using Freya without tubes for the last two weeks leaving it on 24/7.  It stays nice and cool and sounds great in passive or JFET mode, although I prefer passive.  I'm still undecided on which tubes I want to get and find passive has the most transparent sonics compared to stock tubes or JFET.





winders said:


> 1. Yes, you can run Freya with no tubes and use either the passive or JFET buffer modes.
> 2. No love or hate here. I have not had the chance to listen to them. I was kind of hoping to find someone who was not impressed with them and convince them too let me try them with the option to buy.
> 3. I highly doubt any of the more expensive new tubes are better than the NOS tubes we can get for the same price or less.


----------



## acguitar84

It seems like, for tube use with Freya, a person only needs to secure 2 really good tubes for the power section, and then pretty much anything (stock tubes as well) can be used in the other two slots (going by the majority of tube rolling impressions).


----------



## jseymour

acguitar84 said:


> It seems like, for tube use with Freya, a person only needs to secure 2 really good tubes for the power section, and then pretty much anything (stock tubes as well) can be used in the other two slots (going by the majority of tube rolling impressions).



I must be the exception to that rule.  Yesterday I received a pair of Ken-Rad VT-231 Black glass.  I had them in the gain position and Sylvania 7N7 in the output buffer.  Played music for at least 4 hours and was not completely thrilled and chalked it up to the Ken-Rads needing more burn in time.  This morning I reversed them and was instantly impressed.  Played music for over 2 hours and selections from the night before all sounded better.  You never know.  Tonight I will put in something different in the gain position and see what changes.


----------



## Mike Thompson

I've had good luck with some of the new tubes. I have been playing with the Northern Electric tubes and today i put in a matched pair of ShuGuang Art Treasure CV181-Z tubes on the right side and the Northern Electrics on the left. Sounds great. In fairness the ShuGuang's are well run in. I had to use tube savers on with the ShuGuang tubes but works really well.

That's one of the best things about audio in my opinion. It's subjective and just so enjoyable.


----------



## Jozurr (Jun 9, 2017)

Mike Thompson said:


> I have a new Freya as of about a week ago. I'm very happy with it. I was a little disappointed by the size of the holes for the tubes. The ones I was planning on using do not fit. I do, however, have some tube savers coming in which will hopefully solve the problem. In the mean time I'm using a new pair of Northern Electric 6SN7's on the gain side and still using the stock tubes on the other side. The Northern Electric's (Canadian Made) are new and require a little burn-in time but already are a significant upgrade over the stock tubes. I'm really happy with my Freya.



Yes the small holes and the non-flush sockets are part of the dumb-design of the freya. I have to be extremely careful to wiggle the tubes and pull them out whenever I have to swap or risk scratching the tubes or bases. Doesnt help that the edges of the holes are sharp. The holes could very easily have been bigger (and not had the 2 circles around them with small holes) or the sockets could have been flush. The flush sockets are better because then the holes can be just the size of the sockets and not risk dust getting inside the preamp.


----------



## Mike Thompson

Jozurr said:


> Yes the small holes and the non-flush sockets are part of the dumb-design of the freya. I have to be extremely careful to wiggle the tubes and pull them out whenever I have to swap or risk scratching the tubes or bases. Doesnt help that the edges of the holes are sharp. The holes could very easily have been bigger (and not had the 2 circles around them with small holes) or the sockets could have been flush. The flush sockets are better because then the holes can be just the size of the sockets and not risk dust getting inside the preamp.



It's funny that the hole in the Saga is bigger - don't know why they didn't make it the same size on the Freya. The socket savers brought it up to the level of the top and has made it much easier to roll tubes. It looks better too in my opinion.


----------



## Jozurr

Mike Thompson said:


> It's funny that the hole in the Saga is bigger - don't know why they didn't make it the same size on the Freya. The socket savers brought it up to the level of the top and has made it much easier to roll tubes. It looks better too in my opinion.



Which socket savers are you using? Do the socket savers come out when you pull out the tubes? or do you have to hold them in place?


----------



## Mike Thompson

Jozurr said:


> Which socket savers are you using? Do the socket savers come out when you pull out the tubes? or do you have to hold them in place?



I picked up four from ebay.ca. As it is they were just slightly too big so I used a Dremel to reduce the diameter just a bit. Took a while but they came out really well. They are pretty tight when placed in the socket and I have not had any problem removing the tubes after the install - in fact they are easier to remove as you can now grab them by the base. Getting the socked savers out again may be a bit more challenging however.  

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/160460115202?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT


----------



## winders

belgiangenius said:


> Got some Sylvania 6SN7GT bad boys on the way for my next evaluation.



Have your "Bad Boys" arrived yet? Mine did today and initial impressions are positive!


----------



## winders

Okay. I have some updated thoughts on 6SN7 tubes:

Class A:

1. Sylvania 6SN7GT (3-hole Black Plate, Bottom Foil Getter, “Bad Boy”, 13th week, 1952) - These are the real deal. All the clarity, detail, and soundstage the RT VT-231's offer with killer bass!!
2. Raytheon VT-231 (Opposing Black Flat Plates ) - Great overall sound. Nice clarity and detail everywhere. Bass is strong but not over done. Soundstage is deep and has good height. 
3. Ken-Rad VT-231 (Black “Staggered” Flat Plates, Copper Rods, Black Glass) - Very close to #2. I almost made it co-#2. The soundstage is not quite as deep.
4. Sylvania 6SN7W (Black Base, Short Bottle) A small step below #2 and #3. This tube sounds great until I listen to the tubes above. Less clarity up top and the bass in not as strong. 


Class B:

5. Raytheon 6SN7WGT (Brown Base, Opposing Black Flat Plates) Not as good as the VT-231 but is very good overall. Maybe a good output buffer stage tube for the Raytheon VT-231.
6. RCA VT-231 (Grey Glass) - This tube sounds good but not great. Too much roll off in the highs and lack of detail in the bass.
7. Sylvania 6SN7GT (2 Hole version of "Bad Boy") - Same construction as Syl VT-231. I bought these for the output buffer stage but they sound quite good in the gain stage.
8. Sylvania 6SN7WGTA (Brown Base, 1966) - Great in output buffer stage but a little boring in the gain stage.

Class C:

9. The OE Russian tubes.

My plan is to use the top 4 tubes in the gain stage. 5 through 9 all seem to work well in the output buffer stage...even the Russian tubes!

I am done buying tubes for Freya. I have a nice supply of tubes that should last a very long time!


----------



## Pandahead

winders said:


> Okay. I have some updated thoughts on 6SN7 tubes:
> 
> Class A:
> 
> ...



1952, a very good year!


----------



## winders

Where is everyone?


----------



## cskippy

Ordered some Sylvania 6SN7GT two hole "Bad Boys" based on Brent Jesse's information.  Hopefully these are the real deal.  I'll update once I get them in and have some listening time.


----------



## Pandahead

winders said:


> Where is everyone?



One way or another most likely listening to tubes through Schiit.


----------



## Mike Thompson

winders said:


> Where is everyone?


Sunday night. Reclined and listening to my headphones.


----------



## winders

cskippy said:


> Ordered some Sylvania 6SN7GT two hole "Bad Boys" based on Brent Jesse's information.  Hopefully these are the real deal.  I'll update once I get them in and have some listening time.



I will be interested to hear what you think. I ended up with a matched quad and one matched pair of the real "Bad Boys". After listening to that first pair I decided I wanted two more pair. Fortunately, I got great prices on all of them. Unless a unique deal comes along, I am set with tubes for my Freya. Heck, I am set with tubes for my Mjolnir 2 as well. I think I am going to miss tube hunting.

The Vidar amp should be available in the next few weeks and my plan is to order two of those. I am still not sure what speakers I am going to get so I better figure that out soon. I am leaning toward Salk Song3-A or TektonDesign Double Impact speakers.

Freya is proving to be a great preamp!


----------



## Mike Thompson

winders said:


> I will be interested to hear what you think. I ended up with a matched quad and one matched pair of the real "Bad Boys". After listening to that first pair I decided I wanted two more pair. Fortunately, I got great prices on all of them. Unless a unique deal comes along, I am set with tubes for my Freya. Heck, I am set with tubes for my Mjolnir 2 as well. I think I am going to miss tube hunting.
> 
> The Vidar amp should be available in the next few weeks and my plan is to order two of those. I am still not sure what speakers I am going to get so I better figure that out soon. I am leaning toward Salk Song3-A or TektonDesign Double Impact speakers.
> 
> Freya is proving to be a great preamp!


I agree with you about the Freya. It has a few little odd things about it, but it works well and sounds great. I'll be interested to hear your thoughts on the Vidar amps when you get them. 

Out of interest I just read a review on the TektonDesign Double Impact speakers on HomeTheaterReview.com. They referred to it as a "disruptive product in that it so radically snaps the ratio of cost to performance that it skews the market to the point that it would be irrational to spend a lot of money for far less performance".


----------



## Jozurr

winders said:


> I will be interested to hear what you think. I ended up with a matched quad and one matched pair of the real "Bad Boys". After listening to that first pair I decided I wanted two more pair. Fortunately, I got great prices on all of them. Unless a unique deal comes along, I am set with tubes for my Freya. Heck, I am set with tubes for my Mjolnir 2 as well. I think I am going to miss tube hunting.
> 
> The Vidar amp should be available in the next few weeks and my plan is to order two of those. I am still not sure what speakers I am going to get so I better figure that out soon. I am leaning toward Salk Song3-A or TektonDesign Double Impact speakers.
> 
> Freya is proving to be a great preamp!



What prices did you get?


----------



## winders

Jozurr said:


> What prices did you get?



Great!


----------



## winders

winders said:


> If anyone here likes Ken-Rad VT-231 tubes, this seller has some good prices for matched pairs:
> 
> http://stores.ebay.com/totempole-99...H_TitleDesc=1&_fsub=7336610014&_sid=514927004
> 
> ...



I ordered these tubes on June 8th and received them today, June 12th! They were extremely well packed...the best I have ever seen. The tubes are labeled as are nice boxes they come in.

The clear Ken-Rad VT-231 tubes sounded great, too!

I would not hesitate to buy from that seller again.


----------



## acguitar84

I ordered 2 (Matched) of the Northern Electric Tubes for the power section, and two electro harmonix tubes for the buffer section. I'm going to use the stock tubes just for backup, and keep it like that for awhile. Maybe in the fall, I'll order some NOS tubes to put in the power section, but I have the suspicion the Northern Electric tubes will be just fine I hope.


----------



## acguitar84

One more quick post, I finally got my mixer working for the Lynx AES16e soundcard (feeding into the yggy), and it helps the overall sound a ton! Now I can't wait to get the tubes, final piece in the puzzle for now. Reading through this thread, everyone that replaced the stock tubes seemed to really see improvement in the Freya's sound. Can't wait to see for myself!


----------



## winders

Mixer? That basically changes the digital data before it gets to Yggdrasil and kind of ruins the whole point of the Mega Burrito filter.....


----------



## acguitar84 (Jun 12, 2017)

winders said:


> Mixer? That basically changes the digital data before it gets to Yggdrasil and kind of ruins the whole point of the Mega Burrito filter.....



Not a mixer per sey. It's with the software that goes with the lynx soundcard. Instead of using USB from the computer to the Yggy, now I'm using AES/EBU from the lynx soundcard to the yggy, then yggy balanced out into the Freya. Basically all the mixer does is control the volume levels. Right now, it sounds really amazing. Usually at this time of the night, I'm getting ready for bed, instead I'm downstairs cranking music lol. Honestly, I wasn't sure what people were saying about the AES/EBU hook in, now I'm seeing what they mean.

I know this is a little off topic from the Freya, but the Freya is involved, so yeah. lol. Really cool stuff!


----------



## acguitar84

One question, winders if you're still on you can answer, how much improvement did you really see from moving "up" so to speak from the stock tubes in the Freya? If it's a lot, then my mind is going to be blown on Wednesday when the new tubes arrive!


----------



## winders

Use Freya to control the volume. The mixer is doing digital volume control which mucks with the signal. It's the reason I don't use any kind of ReplayGain!

The stock tubes are okay in the output buffer stage (left tubes). But, you really want some decent tubes ion the gain stage (right tubes).


----------



## jseymour

If you want the best from Freya, put good tubes in the output buffer too.  I tried the tubes that came with it and they aren't good.


----------



## Pandahead (Jun 13, 2017)

jseymour said:


> If you want the best from Freya, put good tubes in the output buffer too.  I tried the tubes that came with it and they aren't good.



Concur. But....
As in all things stereo do whatever makes you happy. I've been saying for 6 months now that if you like the sound of your driver tubes then put in another pair as followers, they will kick it up a notch. What could be wrong with trying a quad of your best two tubes if you've come this far into the process? If it does nothing and you are sure all 4 are good tubes, the worst is now you have spares.


----------



## winders

Oh, I think better tubes would be better than the stock Russian tubes in the output buffer stage too. But, and this is a strong but, what makes a great gain stage tube does not necessarily make a great output buffer tube. They are very different analog electrical functions. It's quite possible, even quite likely, that the best tube for each stage is NOT the same tube!


----------



## jseymour

winders said:


> Oh, I think better tubes would be better than the stock Russian tubes in the output buffer stage too. But, and this is a strong but, what makes a great gain stage tube does not necessarily make a great output buffer tube. They are very different analog electrical functions. It's quite possible, even quite likely, that the best tube for each stage is NOT the same tube!



Agreed.  My quad of 54 Sylvania 6SN7GTAs sound very good.  But it sounds even better when I have Ken-Rad in the output buffer. So my experience is two different pairs sound the best.


----------



## belgiangenius

Anyone tried some genuine Russian 1578s in this preamp?


----------



## winders

jseymour said:


> Agreed.  My quad of 54 Sylvania 6SN7GTAs sound very good.  But it sounds even better when I have Ken-Rad in the output buffer. So my experience is two different pairs sound the best.



I have found Freya to sound better with Sylvania 6SN7GTA tubes in the output buffer stage and Ken-Rad VT-231 tubes in the gain stage. Have you tried that? The Sylvania 6SN7GTA are okay in the gain stage but are not as dynamic as I would like. They sound a little flat there.


----------



## winders

belgiangenius said:


> Anyone tried some genuine Russian 1578s in this preamp?



I looked for a matched pair but the prices were too high and the sources, in Russia and the Ukraine, were dubious. There were plenty of other tube options that are supposed to be as good or better available locally in the U.S.


----------



## jseymour

winders said:


> I looked for a matched pair but the prices were too high and the sources, in Russia and the Ukraine, were dubious. There were plenty of other tube options that are supposed to be as good or better available locally in the U.S.



I am boycotting anything Russian.  There is more than enough USA made NOS 6SN7 (and associated family) tubes to choose from.  I did try my Ken-Rad VT-231s for gain, but liked them better in the output buffer.  It may have been because I put them in the gain position when I first got them and they needed more burn in time.  At some point I will try them in gain again.


----------



## winders (Jun 14, 2017)

I know I said I was done buying tubes....but I could not resist bidding on a NOS pair of what I am 99% sure are Sylvania 6SN7GT "Bad Boy" tubes. Here they are:






I paid $120 which is a great price these days. They were not listed as "Bad Boys" which I think was a mistake on the seller's part.


----------



## Pandahead

winders said:


> I know I said I was done buying tubes....but I could not resist bidding on a NOS pair of what I am 99% sure are Sylvania 6SN7GT "Bad Boy" tubes. Here they are:
> 
> 
> 
> I paid $120 which is a great price these days. They were not listed as "Bad Boys" which I think was a mistake on the seller's part.



Fourth month 1952, very cool!


----------



## winders

Pandahead said:


> Fourth month 1952, very cool!



That tube on the left is labeled "S. R. L. INC." But I know that other names were put on Sylvania "Bad Boy" tubes so that doesn't bother me. The right tube is from the 13th week of 1953 which is still in the right date range for "Bad Boy" tubes. All the construction looks correct too. I just can't tell what kind of getter these tubes have.


----------



## cskippy

@winders What are you running in the output stage?  I tried the new production Tung Sols after the Sylvania Bad Boys and they sound like mush garbage.  Stock tubes are far better in the output stage for me.  I'm wondering though if they are holding me back a little?  I might pick up another pair of Bad Boys or maybe the Ken Rad VT-231.


----------



## winders

cskippy said:


> @winders What are you running in the output stage?  I tried the new production Tung Sols after the Sylvania Bad Boys and they sound like mush garbage.  Stock tubes are far better in the output stage for me.  I'm wondering though if they are holding me back a little?  I might pick up another pair of Bad Boys or maybe the Ken Rad VT-231.



I have been running the stock tubes in the output buffer stage with a pair of "Bad Boys" in the gain stage. I thought it sounded quite good. Your post inspired me to put a pair of clear glass Ken-Rad VT-231 tubes in the output buffer stage. I'll let you know what I think tomorrow.

None of my tubes have a lot of hours on them so I suspect they will all sound better as time goes on. Mostly I've been running tubeless in JFET mode until I finish my 2 channel setup. I am anxiously waiting on Vidar to come out so I can order a pair of tower speakers for my listening room/Library. My powered monitors have been performing great but I think running Vidar amps with really good speakers will make for a better environment to evaluate tubes.


----------



## Pandahead

winders said:


> That tube on the left is labeled "S. R. L. INC." But I know that other names were put on Sylvania "Bad Boy" tubes so that doesn't bother me. The right tube is from the 13th week of 1953 which is still in the right date range for "Bad Boy" tubes. All the construction looks correct too. I just can't tell what kind of getter these tubes have.



It was late last night when I looked at the date code. They ran vertically, top down with a single digit for the year and that one doesn't. 4th week 1952, or 1954 week 52? April 1952? Interesting. Sadly anyone with working knowledge of "S. R. L. INC" is long dead most likely. Sometimes it's hard to see the getter. Sure looks like the real thing. Nice find. I have an Emerson tube that's clearly a TungSol mouse ear. It was less expensive just because they were labeled for Emerson. Etc.

Once you get a pair of Vidars and run them mono block with your floor standers and get everything dialed in, it will be a whole new level that's a guarantee. You will be revising your thoughts most likely, well that's the fun.

The picture below is "1951, week 42" just to clarify for others hunting for tubes.


----------



## belgiangenius

winders said:


> I looked for a matched pair but the prices were too high and the sources, in Russia and the Ukraine, were dubious. There were plenty of other tube options that are supposed to be as good or better available locally in the U.S.



I too have no desire to purchase from Russia.

I bought a set coming from Ukraine.  We'll see how they do.  You are right - expensive - but there are people who claim they sound better than Tung-Sol round plates, and you ain't getting a pair of those for $200!


----------



## winders

winders said:


> I have been running the stock tubes in the output buffer stage with a pair of "Bad Boys" in the gain stage. I thought it sounded quite good. Your post inspired me to put a pair of clear glass Ken-Rad VT-231 tubes in the output buffer stage. I'll let you know what I think tomorrow.



So I turn on Freya this morning and, once she was up and the muting relaying went off, I get a super loud series of pops in my left speaker. It calms down and I play a song. No sound comes from the left speaker. I lightly tap on the front tube in the gain stage. I get more pops in the left speaker but no music. I do more troubleshooting but long story short, one of my "Bad Boy" tubes is dead. It's only off in the mail back to the seller and I have a full refund coming. Too bad....

I put another pair of "Bad Boys" in the gain stage with a pair of Ken-Rad VT-231 tubes in the output buffer stage. I listened for a while and I don't rally think it sounded any better than that with the Factory included Russian tubes in the output buffer stage. I am going to try some other tubes there like the RCA VT-231 smoke glass set I have.


----------



## cskippy

If that's true you'll be saving me some money.  I'll be buying some 2A3 tubes in the future for another amp so I might spend the money there.  Keep us posted.


----------



## acguitar84 (Jun 15, 2017)

I put the tubes in now, two electro harmonix on the left side and the two Northern Electric on the right. Seems punchier and cleaner than the stock tubes. Really cool!! I can see why people get into tube rolling!


----------



## eschell27

I also had a pair of '52 Bad boys i was really happy with in my gain stage and had the something very similar happen...was working fine for weeks then one day i go to turn it on, nothing from one channel switch the tubes around to check and sure enough not working... a couple days later i pop them back in just to see and now it's working but that tube is now much more quiet than the other one. Unfortunately i cannot return the tube to the seller as i bought them off the forums and no i am on the hunt for another pair or quad as i really love those tubes! 
But for not i have been mostly using Sylvania vt-231's in output and either rca vt-231 grey's, some sylvania 6sn7gt's or ken rad vt-231 staggered plate black glass in the gain... just for the hell of it i threw the rca grey in output and sylvania 6sn7gt's in gain and it is also very pleasant...

BUT...if anyone finds some more of these '52 3 hole bad boys and wants to share please shoot me a PM! i really want to get some more of them.

Date codes on my surviving tube and dead/dying one are 252 & 235


----------



## Mike Thompson

acguitar84 said:


> I ordered 2 (Matched) of the Northern Electric Tubes for the power section, and two electro harmonix tubes for the buffer section. I'm going to use the stock tubes just for backup, and keep it like that for awhile. Maybe in the fall, I'll order some NOS tubes to put in the power section, but I have the suspicion the Northern Electric tubes will be just fine I hope.


I'm using a matched pair of Northern Electric 6SN7's in my Freya. Very happy with them.


----------



## DoubleIPA

Mike Thompson said:


> I'm using a matched pair of Northern Electric 6SN7's in my Freya. Very happy with them.


How do you think they compare to the stock tubes?


----------



## Mike Thompson

DoubleIPA said:


> How do you think they compare to the stock tubes?


I think they sound much better. Base it tighter and better defined; dynamic range is improved and they are in no way fatiguing. I am very happy with them. They are still just breaking in so I'm sure the sound will improve even more.


----------



## winders

winders said:


> I know I said I was done buying tubes....but I could not resist bidding on a NOS pair of what I am 99% sure are Sylvania 6SN7GT "Bad Boy" tubes. Here they are:
> 
> 
> 
> I paid $120 which is a great price these days. They were not listed as "Bad Boys" which I think was a mistake on the seller's part.



Just a follow up:

I received these tubes today and they are the best sounding tubes in my collection! Yay!!


----------



## Mike Thompson

winders said:


> Just a follow up:
> 
> I received these tubes today and they are the best sounding tubes in my collection! Yay!!


I hear a lot of good things about those tubes. I'll have to have a look for some for me! Thanks for the update.


----------



## cskippy

@winders Still using the stock tubes for output?


----------



## winders

cskippy said:


> @winders Still using the stock tubes for output?



Those and 2 pair of Sylvania 6SN7WGTA (Brown Base, Chrome Top, 1966) tubes I bought specifically to use in the output buffer stage. But mostly the stock tubes.


----------



## trappedintime (Jun 20, 2017)

Freya improved my system so much I ordered a second one which I got in today. I had been using DAC/pre units, the DirectStream Jr to Parasound A21 and ELAC UF5's in my main rig and Oppo HA-1 to Linn AV5105, powering PBN Montana monitors. I've had pre's before and still have an old Onkyo P304 in storage, but the Freya has just blown me away.

It's added substantial body and more realistic tonal qualities to my music and made me feel like my Halo is finally blowing me away after a couple years and also maximizing the depth the scanspeak technology in the Montana monitors can really deliver to shape the music.

In both rigs my gain tubes are Kenrad VT-231's. I've got a pair of three hole bad boys in the buffer stage with my smaller setup and the stock tubes in the larger one. I'm not sure where I might want to go from there tube wise, but I do think the bad boys in the buffer stage is a good compliment to the Kenrads. We'll see how the stock tubes break in but I think I want something NOS for the second set.

It's hard to compare the Freyas directly with my Ragnaroks as those are in HP/near field configs with different DAC's and sources, but the better stepped attenuator and multiple outputs make it more versatile for my music collection, digital and vinyl alike. My next Schiit endeavor will hopefully  involve a pair of Vidars and seeing how synergistic the pairing is.


----------



## winders

trappedintime said:


> In both rigs my gain tubes are Kenrad VT-231's. I've got a pair of three hole bad boys in the buffer stage with my smaller setup and the stock tubes in the larger one. I'm not sure where I might want to go from there tube wise, but I do think the bad boys in the buffer stage is a good compliment to the Kenrads. We'll see how the stock tubes break in but I think I want something NOS for the second set.



Clearly this is all subject to personal likes and dislikes, but I think you are wasting your Sylvania 6SN7GT "Bad Boys" by using them in the output buffer stage. The Ken-Rad VT-231 is a great tube, but it lacks the sweet midrange of the "Bad Boys" and the bass is not as tight and has less detail. I would think you would like the sound better if you swapped those tube's positions. Put the "Bad Boys" in the gain stage and the Ken-Rads in the output buffer stage. I think the Sylvania VT-231, Sylvania 6SN7GT (2 hole version), and Sylvania 6SN7GTA (any vintage) make great output buffer stage tubes. I like the Sylvania 6SN7GT "Bad Boys", Raytheon VT-231 (Black Flat Plates), Ken-Rad VT-231, and Sylvania 6SN7W tubes in the gain stage.


----------



## trappedintime

winders said:


> Clearly this is all subject to personal likes and dislikes, but I think you are wasting your Sylvania 6SN7GT "Bad Boys" by using them in the output buffer stage. The Ken-Rad VT-231 is a great tube, but it lacks the sweet midrange of the "Bad Boys" and the bass is not as tight and has less detail. I would think you would like the sound better if you swapped those tube's positions. Put the "Bad Boys" in the gain stage and the Ken-Rads in the output buffer stage. I think the Sylvania VT-231, Sylvania 6SN7GT (2 hole version), and Sylvania 6SN7GTA (any vintage) make great output buffer stage tubes. I like the Sylvania 6SN7GT "Bad Boys", Raytheon VT-231 (Black Flat Plates), Ken-Rad VT-231, and Sylvania 6SN7W tubes in the gain stage.


Just realized I mistakingly posted 3 hole rather than 2 hole. The 2 holes don't touch the Kenrads. I guess I need to track down the two hole bad boys if I want to see what I'm missing in the mids.


----------



## winders

trappedintime said:


> Just realized I mistakingly posted 3 hole rather than 2 hole. The 2 holes don't touch the Kenrads. I guess I need to track down the two hole bad boys if I want to see what I'm missing in the mids.



Wait, you mean you need to track down the 3 hole "Bad Boys"...right?

I agree, the 2 hole Sylvania 6SN7GT is not as good as the Ken-Rad VT-231. But, the 3 hole "Bad Boys" are better!!


----------



## winders

Remember that I said I was done buying tubes for my Freya? That was before one of my pairs of "Bad Boy" tubes had one die. I sent that pair back and received a full refund. Anyway, I figured I would stay on the lookout for one more pair of "Bad Boys" because I like them so much. Well, a guy put a pair up for sale a few days ago on eBay with a string bid of $29. After a couple of days he had no bids. This is normal for eBay as everyone waits to bid when the auction gets close to ending. I figured what the heck, l'll send him a message offering him the same $120 I paid for that other pair of "Bad Boys" last week. If he accepts, I get a great deal because "Bad Boys" will go for at least that. If he doesn't, nothing lost. He accepted!!

Why am I posting this? To remind you guys that good deals can be had if you work the system! I am done buying tubes now so you guys go get them!


----------



## cskippy

Are you sure those are true Bad Boys?  I thought they needed green labeling?  Either way nice score!


----------



## winders

cskippy said:


> Are you sure those are true Bad Boys?  I thought they needed green labeling?  Either way nice score!



The ones I just bought? Yes. Sylvania would make these tubes for other companies and put that companies names on them. The SRL tube I bought last week has white lettering. If they have Sylvania's name on them, they would need to have green lettering.


----------



## cskippy

Ah, gotcha.  Damn, I was going to bid on those tubes too!  Oh, well.  That's a good lesson just sending a message to the seller and asking if they'll accept your offer.


----------



## winders

cskippy said:


> Ah, gotcha.  Damn, I was going to bid on those tubes too!  Oh, well.  That's a good lesson just sending a message to the seller and asking if they'll accept your offer.



As I said, I am now done buying tubes. I will keep an eye out and let you know if any pairs of "Bad Boys" pop up. Especially those not listed as "Bad Boys".


----------



## cskippy

Thanks, I would appreciate it!


----------



## Siigari

I've got a Gungnir MB and Rag 2 getting here this week. I'm going to be running music out of my PC.

Do I have a reason to get a Freya? I am in need of schooling. Using Utopias.


----------



## rnros

Siigari said:


> I've got a Gungnir MB and Rag 2 getting here this week. I'm going to be running music out of my PC.
> 
> Do I have a reason to get a Freya? I am in need of schooling. Using Utopias.



If by Rag 2 you are referring to the Ragnarok, the answer would be no, unless you are certain you want to try altering the sound of the Rag.
You could insert the Freya between the GMB and the Rag, it would the affect the sound to some degree (also dependent upon the tubes), but not necessarily for the better. In the least, I would spend some time with the GMB and the Rag pairing, they are two extremely fine components.
Should be great, enjoy!


----------



## Siigari

rnros said:


> If by Rag 2 you are referring to the Ragnarok, the answer would be no, unless you are certain you want to try altering the sound of the Rag.
> You could insert the Freya between the GMB and the Rag, it would the affect the sound to some degree (also dependent upon the tubes), but not necessarily for the better. In the least, I would spend some time with the GMB and the Rag pairing, they are two extremely fine components.
> Should be great, enjoy!


Thanks! Just the reply I was looking for. What exactly is the Freya for? I'm still curious.


----------



## winders

Freya is a preamp.....


----------



## Siigari

winders said:


> Freya is a preamp.....


If I'm using the Mjolnir though is the Freya just for coloration? (Being serious here, please teach me!)


----------



## cskippy

If you're using the Mjolnir 2? as a preamp into Ragnarok then Freya will probably be LESS colored than MJ2.  IMO, It's redundant and adds a lot more components for nothing.


----------



## Mike Thompson

cskippy said:


> If you're using the Mjolnir 2? as a preamp into Ragnarok then Freya will probably be LESS colored than MJ2.  IMO, It's redundant and adds a lot more components for nothing.


I agree. I would not ad a Freya to that system - you don't need two preamps.


----------



## Thouston

I have a budget of $100 +/- to spend on a Freya tube upgrade. What would you buy? Two good $50. tubes, or four $25 tubes. What tubes sounds the best that is not over $50.? 

Thanks


----------



## US Blues

Thouston said:


> I have a budget of $100 +/- to spend on a Freya tube upgrade. What would you buy? Two good $50. tubes, or four $25 tubes. What tubes sounds the best that is not over $50.?
> 
> Thanks



A matched quad of new production Tung Sols will do the trick for about $100.


----------



## Thouston

US Blues said:


> A matched quad of new production Tung Sols will do the trick for about $100.


What options would you get? 
Low noise, Matched, Balanced Triodes, High Gain.
https://tubedepot.com/products/tung...uChc6FdNlaHo0BqPczWW4bvkquccMDHY4DxoCH3vw_wcB


----------



## Mike Thompson

Thouston said:


> I have a budget of $100 +/- to spend on a Freya tube upgrade. What would you buy? Two good $50. tubes, or four $25 tubes. What tubes sounds the best that is not over $50.?
> 
> Thanks


You don't need quads. You can leave the stock tubes on the buffer side and replace the two gain side tubes.


----------



## winders

This is a nice pair:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-MATCH-PAI...4101-764016-/201960864602?hash=item2f05ce3b5a


----------



## PolarBehr (Jun 21, 2017)

Siigari said:


> I've got a Gungnir MB and Rag 2 getting here this week. I'm going to be running music out of my PC.
> 
> Do I have a reason to get a Freya? I am in need of schooling. Using Utopias.



The Rag is a good preamp (input selection, volume control), excellent head phone amp and a good small power speaker amp. With it you do not need anything else to drive headphones, powered monitors or speakers.

The Freya is an excellent pre amp. It does not have a head phone amp nor a speaker amp.

You can use the Freya in front of the Rag (after the Gumby) to add some tube sound but if the tube sound was that important to you the Rag may not have been the best purchase.

The Mjolnir 2 is an excellent tube head phone amp that has preamp outs that can drive power monitors. It does provide volume control but does not have input selection.


----------



## trappedintime

winders said:


> This is a nice pair:
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-MATCH-PAI...4101-764016-/201960864602?hash=item2f05ce3b5a



That seller is excellent too. Got my first pair in 3 days, the second pair was 5 days, or 3 business days. From India.


----------



## winders

winders said:


> This is a nice pair:
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-MATCH-PAI...4101-764016-/201960864602?hash=item2f05ce3b5a





trappedintime said:


> That seller is excellent too. Got my first pair in 3 days, the second pair was 5 days, or 3 business days. From India.



Somebody buy those tubes...that's a great price for NOS Sylvania VT-231 tubes....I am tempted to buy them and I don't need them!


----------



## cskippy

I'll second buying those Sylvania VT0-231 over a quad of new production Tung Sols.  The Tung Sols are over rated and sound mushier than stock.  IMO, not an upgrade.


----------



## winders

Someone bought a nice pair of NOS Sylvania VT-231 tubes....


----------



## Siigari (Jun 22, 2017)

PolarBehr said:


> The Rag is a good preamp (input selection, volume control), excellent head phone amp and a good small power speaker amp. With it you do not need anything else to drive headphones, powered monitors or speakers.
> 
> The Freya is an excellent pre amp. It does not have a head phone amp nor a speaker amp.
> 
> ...


Hey man I feel terrible, I actually had the Mjolnir 2 coming. It's here now!

Tuuuuuubes! 












Headphones get here friday, SO EXCITED!

Oh, and this: https://gfycat.com/CoarsePerfumedAlaskankleekai

Diggin' the crisp output from the Gungnir.


----------



## US Blues

Thouston said:


> What options would you get?
> Low noise, Matched, Balanced Triodes, High Gain.
> https://tubedepot.com/products/tung...uChc6FdNlaHo0BqPczWW4bvkquccMDHY4DxoCH3vw_wcB



Low noise, matched, balanced triodes. I got mine from these folks, Platinum grade: https://www.upscaleaudio.com/collections/preamp-tubes/products/tung-sol-6sn7gtb


----------



## acguitar84

Siigari said:


> Hey man I feel terrible, I actually had the Mjolnir 2 coming. It's here now!
> 
> Tuuuuuubes!
> 
> ...


Still using winamp I see! Me too. I've tried to get JRiver to sound as good, but just can't get it to work right.


----------



## Siigari

acguitar84 said:


> Still using winamp I see! Me too. I've tried to get JRiver to sound as good, but just can't get it to work right.


Yeah, I like Winamp. I don't see any problems with it, but I've been using it since the mid 90s, and I just can't see myself adapting to something new after over 20 years of use.


----------



## winders

Where is the Freya in all of this?


----------



## Siigari

winders said:


> Where is the Freya in all of this?


There isn't one, I was asking if I should get one.


----------



## US Blues

Siigari said:


> There isn't one, I was asking if I should get one.



But of course!


----------



## Thouston

At one time the Schiit owners manual was wrong about the Freya tube location. Where should I install the two high end tubes that I have ordered (Right, Left, Front, Back)? I have had the Freya for two months, and I have not listened to it yet. I am waiting for a Vidar to install it in my second system.


----------



## winders

The left tubes are the output buffer stage and the right tubes are the gain stage. Put the good tubes on the right!


----------



## Thouston

winders said:


> The left tubes are the output buffer stage and the right tubes are the gain stage. Put the good tubes on the right!


Thanks man.


----------



## winders

So, I have a hum in one of the Sylvania 6SN7GT "Bad Boy" tubes I received. If I put the tube in the front gain stage location the hum is in the left speaker. If I move it to the rear gain position, the hum is in the right speaker. I have been playing music through the tube continuously for over 24 hours to see if it would lessen or go away. It hasn't gone away but it may have gotten slightly quieter. Otherwise, the tube sounds fantastic!

With my powered monitor setup I can deal with the noise. I lower the volume on the speaker and use Freya to control the volume. The noise loudness does not change when changing the volume control on Freya. It changes only when the volume is increased on the speaker. In other words, Freya's volume control does not attenuate the hum.

My concern is when I change over to a two Vidar amp monoblock setup with passive tower speakers. Will the Vidar amp play the hum loudly like when the powered monitors are set at full volume with no way to attenuate it?


----------



## cskippy (Jun 24, 2017)

It depends on the sensitivity of the speakers being used.  If you have a 250W power amp into sensitive speakers vs 100W or 50W, the noise will be much more apparent.  It's kind of trial and error but I'm sure there are calculations you can do to figure out how much gain is going to be added by the power amp.

For example, Freya to my 250W power amp to my 84.5 dB (dB/2.83v/1M) sensitive Philharmonic Audio AAMs, which are not that sensitive, have a noticeable hiss or noise floor present at all times.  Freya to my Jot there is no such hiss on any headphone at normal listening levels.


----------



## winders

The speakers I am looking at are a 4 ohm design and claim:

98.82dB 2.83V@1m sensitivity

At 4 ohms, a Vidar amp in monoblock mode has 400 watts of power.

The powered monitors are:

87 dB (2.83 V/1 m)

They are 4 ohms at 100 watts

It sounds like the hum is going to be loud!


----------



## cskippy

Yeah, it might be significantly louder.  The only other thing that can affect the noise level is impedance matching between components.  Again, I'm not sure how it translates to preamps and power amps but I know there is an effect.


----------



## winders

cskippy said:


> Yeah, it might be significantly louder.  The only other thing that can affect the noise level is impedance matching between components.  Again, I'm not sure how it translates to preamps and power amps but I know there is an effect.



All of my audio components are plugged into a basic TrippLite power strip which, in turn, is plugged into a Topaz 2.5kVa .0005pf isolation transformer. So, there should be no power or ground loop issues. The issue follows the tube and most tubes are silent.


----------



## US Blues

winders said:


> The speakers I am looking at are a 4 ohm design and claim:
> 
> 98.82dB 2.83V@1m sensitivity
> 
> ...



At RMAF, Jason said that in mono block configuration the Vidar prototypes of that vintage put out well more than 400 watts before they shut off. With a speaker that sensitive you won't hear anything near the noise floor of your system.


----------



## alubis (Jun 24, 2017)

I believe cskippy is mentioning suitable impedance match between the output impedance of Freya with the input impedance of power amp.

As stated in Freya manual, the jfet buffer output impedance is 75 ohms SE, 600 ohms balanced while the tube Output Impedance: 210 ohms.
A mismatch of preamp output vs power amp input impedance might cause problem. But since you are getting vidar, I wouldn't think it will be a problem.



winders said:


> All of my audio components are plugged into a basic TrippLite power strip which, in turn, is plugged into a Topaz 2.5kVa .0005pf isolation transformer. So, there should be no power or ground loop issues. The issue follows the tube and most tubes are silent.


----------



## winders

It's not happening with all tubes......


----------



## cskippy

Freya tube stage has a really high gain, you'll notice when switching between Passive, JFET +1dB and Tube +14dB.  Higher noise tubes like your bad "Bad Boy" are going to have some hiss or hum.


----------



## winders

Okay. I have 1 pair of "Bad Boys" that are quiet. I have 1 pair that both "Bad Boys" hum. Then I have 2 pair where 1 "Bad Boy" in each pair hum. So I have 4 that hum and 4 that don't......


----------



## acguitar84

This Freya is a real piece of work, in other words a fine piece of gear. My speakers have never sounded better. I don't know if part of it is the AES solution for the yggy but I'm really enjoying tunes with the AES fed yggy to Freya to Focal Solo6be. Fun times


----------



## Pandahead

winders said:


> Okay. I have 1 pair of "Bad Boys" that are quiet. I have 1 pair that both "Bad Boys" hum. Then I have 2 pair where 1 "Bad Boy" in each pair hum. So I have 4 that hum and 4 that don't......



Have you tried the ones that hum as followers behind the two silent ones? They might make good followers and you will have silence.


----------



## winders

Pandahead said:


> Have you tried the ones that hum as followers behind the two silent ones? They might make good followers and you will have silence.



I could do that. But I really don't want to use the best sounding tubes in the follower (output buffer) stage. Besides the tubes that came with Freya, I have several pairs of Sylvania 6SN7GT (2 hole) and 6SN7GTA tubes for that function. I also have a pair of Raytheon 6SN7WGT flat black plate tubes to use with the very nice Raytheon VT-231 flat black plate tubes I have.

I won't know how bad the noise is until I get my full 2 channel setup up and running.


----------



## eschell27

So bummed... after having one of my '52 Sylvania 6SN7GT 3 holes die on me i began searching for another pair or quad... found a guy selling 3 of them...said they tested well but had not actually put them in an amp/preamp to test for noise and the like so i offered him $50 before i go to bed. Over night he sends a message saying sure i'll accept $50, i will just add a buy it now button for you. I see this when i wake up rush over to the listing only to find that someone else bought it! haha! DAMNIT! Oh well... the hunt continues... I'm also looking for a pair of RCA 5692's... if anyone is getting rid of either of these two please PM me! Thanks!


----------



## alubis

I'm still confused which ones are the gain tube and which ones are the output buffer. So if you are facing Freya from the front (eyes facing volume knob) are the left ones the gain tubes?


----------



## JohnBal

winders said:


> The left tubes are the output buffer stage and the right tubes are the gain stage. Put the good tubes on the right!





alubis said:


> I'm still confused which ones are the gain tube and which ones are the output buffer. So if you are facing Freya from the front (eyes facing volume knob) are the left ones the gain tubes?



See what Winders said on the previous page...


----------



## winders

Be careful how you bid on eBay....

The more I listen to music with Raytheon JAN-CRP-6SN7GT VT-231 (flat black plates, 8 copper through rods) tubes in the gain stage in Freya the more I like them. In fact, I like them just as much as I like the Sylvania 6SN7GT "Bad Boy" tubes. 

It's hard to find this particular version of the Raytheon VT-231 tubes. Many of them have "T" shaped plates which are reputed to not sound as good. There are also flat plate version that don't have 8 copper through rods. I have a pair of those and they sound good too...probably just as good. But I know I really like the sound of the 8 copper rod version.

I decided I wanted one more matched pair of these tubes and kept an eye out on eBay for a pair. Pairs kept showing up but they had the "T" plates or were not NOS. Then, late last week several NOS matched pairs and matched quads showed up on eBay. Most of them were the "T" plate style. But 1 matched pair and 1 matched quad were exactly the tubes I was looking for. I tried to buy the matched pair by making the seller an offer via a message. He said that once auctions started he never stopped them. So I had to watch these tubes for 5 days.

Fortunately, the bidding was slow on these tubes. But, the matched pair was getting more interest than the matched quad. I let eBay auto bid for me. But I usually wait until last 15 seconds or so to enter my max bid amount. I was willing to pay more per tube for the matched pair tubes so I entered that max bid and, just in case I lost that bid, I figured I would put in a lower dollar bid on the quad. Well, I needed every cent of my max bid on the matched pair, but I won the pair. Well, my low bid of the quad didn't get close to being needed. I won that auction easily. Oops.....I bought 6 tubes when I wanted two. At least I really really like them!! I better because I now have 5 matched pairs!!


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

My Schiit Freya is on the fritz: 


My Schiit Freya has been acting funny. Some people at the last Seattle Bottlehead HQ meet said it might be a bad ground but not sure. I've sent off an email to Schiit yesterday about it and another e-mail directly to their support/tech e-mail from previous issues with other Schiit stuff and nothing yet.


----------



## wingsounds13

It's sending Norse code, all you have to do is read it.  :-D


----------



## winders

Soundsgoodtome said:


> My Schiit Freya is on the fritz:
> 
> 
> My Schiit Freya has been acting funny. Some people at the last Seattle Bottlehead HQ meet said it might be a bad ground but not sure. I've sent off an email to Schiit yesterday about it and another e-mail directly to their support/tech e-mail from previous issues with other Schiit stuff and nothing yet.




I'd call......


----------



## rollinbr

Soundsgoodtome said:


> My Schiit Freya is on the fritz:
> 
> 
> My Schiit Freya has been acting funny. Some people at the last Seattle Bottlehead HQ meet said it might be a bad ground but not sure. I've sent off an email to Schiit yesterday about it and another e-mail directly to their support/tech e-mail from previous issues with other Schiit stuff and nothing yet.




It definitely has an issue. The good is that the Freya has a 5 year warranty. The bad is it's a holiday weekend until next Tuesday so a response from Schiit may be delayed. 

I did have to send my Ragnarok back for repair a while back as it would not power on. My Ragnarok was one of the first ones, beta tester. Schiit service was exemplary.


----------



## winders

I love Schiit's 5 year warranty on their higher end stuff. I hope I never have to use it but I am sure glad it is there!


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

I see what you did there, clever 


wingsounds13 said:


> It's sending Norse code, all you have to do is read it.  :-D


----------



## rhgg2

I recently bought a set of the Tubemonger socket savers to use in the Freya. Unfortunately they didn't fit through the cut outs in the top of the Freya, so I returned them. Can anyone recommend another good set of socket savers that do fit the Freya?


----------



## jseymour

rhgg2 said:


> I recently bought a set of the Tubemonger socket savers to use in the Freya. Unfortunately they didn't fit through the cut outs in the top of the Freya, so I returned them. Can anyone recommend another good set of socket savers that do fit the Freya?



I bought mine at The Tube Center: http://www.thetubecenter.com/gridcaps_sockets_productlist.html
The 8 pin sockets are near the end of the list.


----------



## Mike Thompson

rhgg2 said:


> I recently bought a set of the Tubemonger socket savers to use in the Freya. Unfortunately they didn't fit through the cut outs in the top of the Freya, so I returned them. Can anyone recommend another good set of socket savers that do fit the Freya?


I had the same problem with a set of socket savers I purchased. Not being the patient type I took my Dremel tool and shaved off just a bit. It took a while do do all four but came out great. Now they fit.


----------



## jseymour

Glad the Dremel worked, but I would advise caution doing that. It only takes one small metal shaving on the PC board to cause a fatal failure.  And taking the metal enclosure off to do it voids the warranty.


----------



## Mike Thompson

jseymour said:


> Glad the Dremel worked, but I would advise caution doing that. It only takes one small metal shaving on the PC board to cause a fatal failure.  And taking the metal enclosure off to do it voids the warranty.


I was very careful and only removed the smallest amount of the outer finish. After I washed them down and dried them with compressed air - I got nowhere near any metal. To look at them you'd never know I did it.


----------



## rhgg2

I see, so you cut down the socket savers themselves! Smart.

For information, I checked with Schiit and the cutouts in the Freya are 1.3" = 33.02mm.


----------



## Mike Thompson

rhgg2 said:


> I see, so you cut down the socket savers themselves! Smart.
> 
> For information, I checked with Schiit and the cutouts in the Freya are 1.3" = 33.02mm.


More like shaved off a little bit to reduce the circumference. It didn't take much at all. Oddly enough the hole in the Saga is bigger and can accommodate bigger based tubes. Can't figure why they would make them so small.


----------



## davewolfs

Deciding between the Freya and the Saga. If going with the Freya does it only make sense if my source is balanced eg Gungnir DAC.


----------



## Mike Thompson

davewolfs said:


> Deciding between the Freya and the Saga. If going with the Freya does it only make sense if my source is balanced eg Gungnir DAC.


I had a Saga and really liked it. I decided to go fully balanced so the Freya made sense. I did find, however, that the tube stage has much more gain then with the Saga and have come to really like the sound of the Freya. You won't go wrong with either but I think, even with single ended, you'll like the tube stage of the Freya better.


----------



## econaut (Jul 6, 2017)

Got my Freya yesterday and I have humming out of my speakers, when the power amp is connected to Freya, even when Freya is turned off.

I have no humming when the amp (in integrated mode) is connected directly to Gumby.

Connection is:

PC -> Wyrd -> Gumby -> PYST XLR -> Freya -> good short RCA cable -> XTZ power amp

Everything is plugged into the same outlet.

Unfortunately, I can't connect the power amp with XLR.

Thank you guys!


----------



## cskippy

It seems like you created a ground loop with Freya.  You can get one of these adn enable the ground lift to break the ground.  Use XLR from Freya to either:

Better but more expensive:
https://www.amazon.com/Radial-Engin...d=1499336194&sr=1-3&keywords=radial+jensen+di

or this one, doesn't have as good of a transformer:
https://www.amazon.com/Radial-Engin...rd_wg=8jJyW&psc=1&refRID=5FS3NJFW3XGJ01ZZ8KES


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

They could be swamped with warranty repairs or it could be the 4th of July weekend but I was hoping for at least a response by now. I sent a request on this early last week.. The problem just got worse today with the music completely cutting off and not coming back.

I've tried stock tubes, aftermarket tubes, nothing. I've tried it with and without the socket savers, nothing. Tried a different source and a different output and the combinations, nada. Schiit's gone crazy yall



Soundsgoodtome said:


> My Schiit Freya is on the fritz:
> 
> 
> My Schiit Freya has been acting funny. Some people at the last Seattle Bottlehead HQ meet said it might be a bad ground but not sure. I've sent off an email to Schiit yesterday about it and another e-mail directly to their support/tech e-mail from previous issues with other Schiit stuff and nothing yet.


----------



## Pandahead

Soundsgoodtome said:


> They could be swamped with warranty repairs or it could be the 4th of July weekend but I was hoping for at least a response by now. I sent a request on this early last week.. The problem just got worse today with the music completely cutting off and not coming back.
> 
> I've tried stock tubes, aftermarket tubes, nothing. I've tried it with and without the socket savers, nothing. Tried a different source and a different output and the combinations, nada. Schiit's gone crazy yall



That's highly unusual. Send them another. They are usually really, really fast.


----------



## winders

Soundsgoodtome said:


> They could be swamped with warranty repairs or it could be the 4th of July weekend but I was hoping for at least a response by now. I sent a request on this early last week.. The problem just got worse today with the music completely cutting off and not coming back.
> 
> I've tried stock tubes, aftermarket tubes, nothing. I've tried it with and without the socket savers, nothing. Tried a different source and a different output and the combinations, nada. Schiit's gone crazy yall



Have you tried calling them?


----------



## Mike Thompson

winders said:


> Have you tried calling them?


From their web site:
Phone: (323) 230-0079 (leave us a message, please . . . we are not psychic. And, if you want timely answers, we strongly encourage email. We do not accept orders via phone. Just email us, OK?)

I think I would send them another email


----------



## winders

Mike Thompson said:


> From their web site:
> Phone: (323) 230-0079 (leave us a message, please . . . we are not psychic. And, if you want timely answers, we strongly encourage email. We do not accept orders via phone. Just email us, OK?)
> 
> I think I would send them another email



Funny. No where did say that I would not send them another email and to call them instead. I asked if *Soundsgoodtome* had tried calling them. If not, it certainly could not hurt to try another communication avenue. Heck, maybe Schiit are responding to his emails and they just aren't getting back to him for some reason.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

Hello gents, no need to get riled up here. I've emailed Nick directly at Schiit's support about 3-4 weeks ago and then used Schiit's site under support to send them an email last week. I think I've covered the email part down. 

I have not called them yet no, but I'll send a 3rd email on Monday if I still get nothing and call them mid week if still nothing. I'm merely just updating you guys here to track and record my service experience with Schiit. This isn't my first dealing with them before and in the past I've had great service (particularly on a Mimby). Cheers 




Mike Thompson said:


> From their web site:
> Phone: (323) 230-0079 (leave us a message, please . . . we are not psychic. And, if you want timely answers, we strongly encourage email. We do not accept orders via phone. Just email us, OK?)
> 
> I think I would send them another email





winders said:


> Funny. No where did say that I would not send them another email and to call them instead. I asked if *Soundsgoodtome* had tried calling them. If not, it certainly could not hurt to try another communication avenue. Heck, maybe Schiit are responding to his emails and they just aren't getting back to him for some reason.


----------



## davewolfs

Soundsgoodtome said:


> They could be swamped with warranty repairs or it could be the 4th of July weekend but I was hoping for at least a response by now. I sent a request on this early last week.. The problem just got worse today with the music completely cutting off and not coming back.
> 
> I've tried stock tubes, aftermarket tubes, nothing. I've tried it with and without the socket savers, nothing. Tried a different source and a different output and the combinations, nada. Schiit's gone crazy yall



What a piece of schiit.


----------



## econaut

cskippy said:


> It seems like you created a ground loop with Freya.  You can get one of these adn enable the ground lift to break the ground.  Use XLR from Freya to either:



Thanks for the advice. Fortunately, I connected my MJ2 just for fun to Freya via XLR. No noise AT ALL when volume knob is turned down, even in tube mode I have to turn the volume knob all the way up in order to hear noise. That is with Utopias, stock tubes and no music playing 

Since my current power amp is just an interim solution, I will stick to passive mode until I get active nearfields with XLR input.


----------



## brad1138

This is kind of weird.... seems to be a copy of this thread....
http://www.just-hifi.com/Schiit-Freya-Impressions-and-Tube-Rolling-Thread_10024087-31.html


----------



## shultzee

New to the Freya club.   Running a MHDT Pagoda  to Freya with a quad of Raytheon  NOS VT- 231.  Early impressions are this is a outstanding pre.   Just have to get use to the funky volume control     .


----------



## winders (Jul 14, 2017)

Welcome to the the club. Freya is an incredible preamp.

The Raytheon VT-231 is my favorite tube right now. Even more so than the Sylvania 6SN7GT "Bad Boy" tubes. I especially like the Raytheon VT-231 with the black flat plates and the 8 copper through rods...they are incredible. The version with 4 copper rods and black flat plates are almost as good. The black "T" plate version is also nice but not as nice as those with the black flat plates.

I am interested to see if I will like the Sylvania 6SN7GT "Bad Boy" tubes more than the Raytheon VT-231 tubes when my 2 channel setup has speakers that go much farther down into the bass range.


----------



## Pandahead (Jul 12, 2017)

shultzee said:


> New to the Freya club.   Running a MHDT Pagoda  to Freya with a quad of Raytheon  NOS VT- 231.  Early impressions are this is a outstanding pre.   Just have to get use to the funky volume control     .



It's a fun ride, enjoy. You will find a convenient start up level to leave it at. Might want to put an obvious marking on the knob if there's a chance of someone messing with it when you're not around.


----------



## Mike Thompson

econaut said:


> Thanks for the advice. Fortunately, I connected my MJ2 just for fun to Freya via XLR. No noise AT ALL when volume knob is turned down, even in tube mode I have to turn the volume knob all the way up in order to hear noise. That is with Utopias, stock tubes and no music playing
> 
> Since my current power amp is just an interim solution, I will stick to passive mode until I get active nearfields with XLR input.


I have the same results using XLR cables. Schiit also strongly hints using XLR cables.


----------



## shultzee

Curios if anyone here is using a Freya rca out for a Sub signal?  Also,  wonder if anyone is using xlr to rca cable to go from Freya balanced out to amp rca in.

Thx.


----------



## RonO

I use the SE outputs for two sub's one on left, one on right while either using the SE output to a SE amp, or balanced to a balanced input amp.  It works fine either way. BUT! know if you use the tube stage, and power off the Freya while those subs are powered, you will get a massive thump. 99% of the time, I don't run tubes at all, just JFET, so power off is no matter with that and passive mode. To avoid the thump, power off all amps, prior to Freya, or switch it to passive/jfet before you power off.


----------



## brad1138

belgiangenius said:


> After another month of listening I am revising my rankings and comments a bit, ranked:
> 
> CLASS A
> 1.  Sylvania 6SN7W black base - simply awesome, all around
> ...



Are there good New Production tubes? I have 4 Tung Sol NP and a pair of Kenrad Staggered plates (amongst others). I agree with above comments, but one of my Kenrads (in gain stage) is causing odd noises even with volume all the way down, as it warms up. It seems to go away, but it bothers me. Anyway, this hit or miss buying old tubes on eBay is a bit obnoxious. Are there any really good NP tubes, that would fall in (or at least near) "Class A"?


----------



## brad1138

Secondly, it seems to me, most people say that the buffer stage makes no real difference. I run my NP Tung sols in the buffer section, and just roll the gain stage. Is that correct, or should I be rolling all 4?


----------



## rhgg2 (Jul 19, 2017)

brad1138 said:


> one of my Kenrads (in gain stage) is causing odd noises even with volume all the way down, as it warms up.


Sometimes cleaning the pins can help. Get some 100% isopropyl alcohol (NOT 90% or 95%) and some q-tips. Soak a q-tip in the alcohol and gently scrub the pins to remove any oxidation. To get behind/between the pins you might need to pull some of the cotton wool off the q-tip head so that it fits. Repeat with more q-tips until nothing more comes off (it could take 1,2,3,4,5 depending on how dirty the pins are). Afterwards they should look pretty shiny. Leave for 10-15 minutes to evaporate, and see how they sound.


brad1138 said:


> Secondly, it seems to me, most people say that the buffer stage makes no real difference. I run my NP Tung sols in the buffer section, and just roll the gain stage. Is that correct, or should I be rolling all 4?


The buffer stage makes a small difference, but much less than the gain stage. Your strategy seems good for the moment.


----------



## Mike Thompson

brad1138 said:


> Are there good New Production tubes? I have 4 Tung Sol NP and a pair of Kenrad Staggered plates (amongst others). I agree with above comments, but one of my Kenrads (in gain stage) is causing odd noises even with volume all the way down, as it warms up. It seems to go away, but it bothers me. Anyway, this hit or miss buying old tubes on eBay is a bit obnoxious. Are there any really good NP tubes, that would fall in (or at least near) "Class A"?


I'm very happy with my Northern Electric 6SN7's.


----------



## KoshNaranek

Mike Thompson said:


> I'm very happy with my Northern Electric 6SN7's.


Has anyone tried the Sovtek 6sn7. That is the only new tube that I have not tried.


----------



## Mike Thompson

KoshNaranek said:


> Has anyone tried the Sovtek 6sn7. That is the only new tube that I have not tried.


I haven't tried them but according to The Tube Store it is used as original equipment in many currently produced home audio tube amplifiers although they don't give any specifics.


----------



## whatcomfalls (Jul 21, 2017)

I received new Freya only a day ago, which included Sovtek 6SN7s .  They are dead quiet, and,so far decent sounding-much better than expected.


----------



## Mike Thompson

whatcomfalls said:


> I received new Freya only a day ago, which included Sovtek 6SN7s .  They are dead quiet, and,so far decent sounding-much better than expected.


I had the same experience with my Freya. Sounded good right out of the box and very quiet. I have upgraded the tubes to ones I already owned but certainly enjoyed it as is.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome (Jul 21, 2017)

The Freya finally took a schiit this AM, just filed an RMA on the Schiit site. I've not had any luck with their support line in a reply so let's see if Schiit takes care of me. Freya was purchased Feb 7th 2017.

Looks like I'm down to the Schiit Sys for now (talk about downgrade).
-----
@Mike, same deal - it cuts out randomly and needs to be touched to play. Talk about quirky! This morning it stopped working all together. I also tested all the inputs, both outputs, different tubes, jfet and tube modes in all combinations. Same issue


Mike Thompson said:


> What happens when you play it back in Passive or JFET Buffer bypassing the tubes?





Soundsgoodtome said:


> My Schiit Freya is on the fritz:
> 
> 
> My Schiit Freya has been acting funny. Some people at the last Seattle Bottlehead HQ meet said it might be a bad ground but not sure. I've sent off an email to Schiit yesterday about it and another e-mail directly to their support/tech e-mail from previous issues with other Schiit stuff and nothing yet.


----------



## Mike Thompson

What happens when you play it back in Passive or JFET Buffer bypassing the tubes?


----------



## acguitar84

Mike Thompson said:


> I'm very happy with my Northern Electric 6SN7's.


Me too! I have 2 of the electro harmonic and 2 of the Northern (on the right side). I also agree with those saying the stock tubes didn't sound all that bad. I really like this thing with the Northerns though!


----------



## sam6550a

I just received my Freya on 7/22, unfortunately, one 6N8S has a dead triode, I substituted a short RCA 6SN7 for it in one of the cathode follower positions, turned it on and started listening Even though it has not burned in, I found the Freya to be quiet, expansive it it's soundstage, and not adding any coloration. The controls are easy to use, and the remote is fine for its intended application. I emailed Schiit for a replacement 6N8S, and found that I have a number of 6SN7 and 6SL7 tubes to try, including 2-6SL7 brand new in the box, accepted by the government in January 1952. I intend to start with the stock tubes, but have a lot of options. Any thoughts?


----------



## Mike Thompson

sam6550a said:


> I just received my Freya on 7/22, unfortunately, one 6N8S has a dead triode, I substituted a short RCA 6SN7 for it in one of the cathode follower positions, turned it on and started listening Even though it has not burned in, I found the Freya to be quiet, expansive it it's soundstage, and not adding any coloration. The controls are easy to use, and the remote is fine for its intended application. I emailed Schiit for a replacement 6N8S, and found that I have a number of 6SN7 and 6SL7 tubes to try, including 2-6SL7 brand new in the box, accepted by the government in January 1952. I intend to start with the stock tubes, but have a lot of options. Any thoughts?


Glad you hear you're enjoying your Freya. I too found the stock tubes to be pretty good but have since replaced them. You certainly want to have the bad one replaced. If you decide to sell it sometime in the future you'll be glad you have a full set. I would agree with you regarding the sound (in tube mode). I love the way the base comes through and it definitely sets up a great sound stage.


----------



## Thouston

What is the best deal on 4 socket savers that would work with the Freya?. The unit sounds great, but the tubes are a real beach to remove.

Thanks


----------



## shultzee

Thouston said:


> What is the best deal on 4 socket savers that would work with the Freya?. The unit sounds great, but the tubes are a real beach to remove.
> 
> Thanks



Be careful on which ones you get.  I got some that don't fit.


----------



## wingsounds13

I think that is why he was asking, trying to make sure that he got the right ones.  

J.P.


----------



## Thouston

wingsounds13 said:


> I think that is why he was asking, trying to make sure that he got the right ones.
> 
> J.P.


That is correct Wingsounds. I am hoping someone will post a link to the right one. 

Thanks


----------



## wingsounds13

I don't have a Freya (yet) but I am interested in the answer.  I do have a cheap streak but on something this inexpensive I am more interested in the better solution than the cheapest solution.  Ultimately, I cannot afford any one of them, but eventually I would like to have Freya and 2 Vidars to feed the MMGs in my computer workstation sound system.  Either there or in the main system that currently has a dead preamp.  The main system has seen very little use for some time, but I would like to get back to it some time.  

J.P.


----------



## bmanone

Thouston said:


> That is correct Wingsounds. I am hoping someone will post a link to the right one.
> 
> Thanks



Thouston,
These were snug, but fit in my freya without modification:
http://www.partsconnexion.com/SOCKET-74489.html.


----------



## Thouston

bmanone said:


> Thouston,
> These were snug, but fit in my freya without modification:
> http://www.partsconnexion.com/SOCKET-74489.html.


Thank you. That is exactly what I was looking for.


----------



## DrJam

Thouston said:


> Thank you. That is exactly what I was looking for.



I got my Freya+Vidar yesterday and those very socket savers today.
I agree with bmanone that they are snug.  Also, they end up just below the top of Freya so you can't see the socket savers are there, but, given the tight fit, I do wonder how difficult it will be to get them out.


----------



## bmanone

I'm not to worried about getting them out, they should easily be removable with the cover off (will void warranty if not done by Schiit).  These simple socket savers should easily outlast the 5yr warranty period. If I have to return the Freya for repair before then, I'll try to work (wiggle) the socket savers out from the top. If I can't  I'll ask the service department to return them with the repaired unit. If the warranty period is over, I'll simply remove  the cover first.


----------



## kazsud

How are you connecting the focal to the Freya?


----------



## Jnan

winders said:


> I ordered these tubes on June 8th and received them today, June 12th! They were extremely well packed...the best I have ever seen. The tubes are labeled as are nice boxes they come in.
> 
> The clear Ken-Rad VT-231 tubes sounded great, too!
> 
> I would not hesitate to buy from that seller again.


I live in India and sent him/her couple of notes/message if he/she can ship to India (Local  ) address and there is no response. Maybe weekend blues, will wait.

Yes I m new to this thread and recommendation from many Freya users and "Schiit Happened..." thread, to read this thread made me to read the whole thread (well skipped few comments etc but mostly read all), and came up until page 47 and I could not hold myself to write a few lines here.

So Far thanks to all who have done all the tube rolling and written your findings. I m new to tube usage (pre / amp) this thread is filed with super information ( i m sure other threads other than Freya might also be good, no harm to them, trying to be humble ) so that I can focus on where I can spend my monies.

Specific thanks to @*winders *and @*belgiangenius *for contributing in tube rolling and doing excellent job at it, its a commendable work in tube rolling which at least for me, saved lot of monies (I cannot do it from India even if i want and well low on budget too) and time spent on tube rolling is paramount. My English is limited for want of better words, to keep it simple, "truly appreciate it!" .

I can now focus in buying tubes you guys have come up with your own list, helps me greatly save $$ and time and I can choose what fits my budget

Thanks,
/Jnan
P.S: this note will appear on 56, but I will continue to read from 47 ...


----------



## Boogie7910 (Aug 7, 2017)

Hi all, I'm pretty new to all this.  I've upgraded to a hi-fi setup from my mid to low-fi one.  I will have a Schiit Gumby and Jot once it arrives in the mail, and I have a new Focal Elear headphone.  I will be running it all balanced with the source being my pc connected to Gumby via Gen 5 usb.

This is my first time having an external dac; before I'd control the volume through the computer with my mouse and I sit pretty far back from the PC and not at a desk and it worked out well.  With me passing everything through to the Gumby now I don't think I'll be able to control the volume with my PC is that correct?  It will not be practical for me to get up and down constantly to adjust the volume with the Jot so am I correct in thinking I need a preamp with remote control?

Since I'm running a balanced setup would it be optimal to buy a Freya?  This is an expensive solution to just have remote volume control.


----------



## eschell27

Boogie7910 said:


> Hi all, I'm pretty new to all this.  I've upgraded to a hi-fi setup from my mid to low-fi one.  I will have a Schiit Gumby and Jot once it arrives in the mail, and I have a new Focal Elear headphone.  I will be running it all balanced with the source being my pc connected to Gumby via Gen 5 usb.
> 
> This is my first time having an external dac; before I'd control the volume through the computer with my mouse and I sit pretty far back from the PC and not at a desk and it worked out well.  With me passing everything through to the Gumby now I don't think I'll be able to control the volume with my PC is that correct?  It will not be practical for me to get up and down constantly to adjust the volume with the Jot so am I correct in thinking I need a preamp with remote control?
> 
> Since I'm running a balanced setup would it be optimal to buy a Freya?  This is an expensive solution to just have remote volume control.



A remote control... and an awesome tube buffer to add some wonderful flavor to the Jot... i love my gumby / freya / jot combo with he-560 and hd650km. Source is a PC with Lynx E22.


----------



## franz159 (Aug 8, 2017)

Hi everybody.
I'm on holiday and my main occupation these past few days has been reading this thread.
Thanks for all valuable info!
A quick question for whoever wants to answer...
How do tou see Freya as pre in combination with a 250W Nord Acoustic Amp?

https://www.nordacoustics.co.uk/product-page/nord-one-mp-nc250-stereo-power-amp

Anybody running something similar?

Speakers are ELAC UB5.


----------



## whatcomfalls

brad1138 said:


> Secondly, it seems to me, most people say that the buffer stage makes no real difference. I run my NP Tung sols in the buffer section, and just roll the gain stage. Is that correct, or should I be rolling all 4?





brad1138 said:


> Secondly, it seems to me, most people say that the buffer stage makes no real difference. I run my NP Tung sols in the buffer section, and just roll the gain stage. Is that correct, or should I be rolling all 4?





brad1138 said:


> Secondly, it seems to me, most people say that the buffer stage makes no real difference. I run my NP Tung sols in the buffer section, and just roll the gain stage. Is that correct, or should I be rolling all 4?





brad1138 said:


> Secondly, it seems to me, most people say that the buffer stage makes no real difference. I run my NP Tung sols in the buffer section, and just roll the gain stage. Is that correct, or should I be rolling all 4?



In my own experience with the Freya, tubes in the output or "buffer" stage have as much sonic impact as tubes in the gain stage. One stage doesn’t dominate the other.


----------



## brad1138

whatcomfalls said:


> In my own experience with the Freya, tubes in the output or "buffer" stage have as much sonic impact as tubes in the gain stage. One stage doesn’t dominate the other.



Thanks, 

Don't remember saying it 4 times though...


----------



## whatcomfalls

Sorry buddy--I didn't intend to make my point 4 times over


----------



## Synergist969

Tube newbie requesting confirmation...OR...When Good Tubes Go Bad...

  Though I have read about what generally/often(?) occurs sonic-ly when tubes begin to go bad...I wish to confirm that prior to shutting my Freya down and pulling one more tubes...

For the last week or two, I have heard intermittent hum, (60 Hz...?), emanating from my right speaker, and the "on"-hum duration is increasing relative to the "non-hum duration"...unclear as to whether that hum has become louder, however, the frequency and duration of those periods has increased.  Prior to testing my system by re-routing everything through my Ragnarok, I simply switched over to the active-buffered preamp. stage, which eliminated the hum...    ...

So, might assume that indeed, that hum was the sonic indicator that at least one of my tubes was/is dying...?...Should I be able to determine which tube(s) are dying by noting which either no longer glow, or in which the glow is diminished?...Or must I begin to play "musical-tubes" by moving them about, and determining how and where the hum sounds/goes...?...

Thank you in advance for your responses!  

Tube compliment:  Tung Sols, new manufacturer, in "critical" gain stage     Original Schiit Issue in the buffer stage...

Oh, and please jog my memory...gain stage vs. buffer stage location  and Left channel vs. Right channel location?...


----------



## winders

Right tubes are gain stage.


----------



## Ghosthouse

Gain tubes are definitely the right hand pair.  Sorry, don't recall which pair is left vs right channel (guessing it's back right, left front but that is just a guess)...should be easy to figure out doing the musical tubes things as you noted.  Hum isn't necessarily a tube dying; 6SN7s can be/get noisy.  Try shutting things down, letting them cool and removing and then reinstalling the tubes.  Reverse gain tubes front to back first.  See if the hum changes channels or (better) goes away.  Reseating the tubes might possibly help...if only temporarily.  Repeat with buffer tubes after the next listening session if the hum didn't move or go away.  

Some EH or Tung-sol new production tubes won't set you back much if you do need to replace a noisy one.  Gain tubes should be matched sections and balanced.  Buffer tubes should be balanced vs gain tubes but I do not believe their sections have to be matched.  Good luck.


----------



## Ghosthouse

@Synergist969 -  
FYI, quoting Intruder35 below (taken from their March 6 2017 post)...

_"The front two tubes are for the left channel, back two for the right.  Right two tubes are the gain stage and the left two the followers."_


----------



## RonO

franz159 said:


> Hi everybody.
> I'm on holiday and my main occupation these past few days has been reading this thread.
> Thanks for all valuable info!
> A quick question for whoever wants to answer...
> ...




I've got a Wyred4Sound ST500mkii, a very similar amp to the nord's, well at least in that they are both class D amps.  Wyred uses the B&O Icepower modules instead of the Hypex modules. I also use the Elac UB5's, but I'm considering to go to the UF5's shortly.  It's a great setup, massive sound stage, incredible detail.  For the first couple months, I ran JFET, and had no tubes in the sockets. Later, I started using the tube stage, I use the Tung-sol new production tubes in all 4 sockets.  Lately, I'm using the tubes more often.  One had a buzz, and running it for couple weeks seems to have settled it down now.


----------



## Ghosthouse

Hopefully relevant to @franz159 ...
I continue to be very happy with the Freya.  Recently installed some NOS clear glass RCAs in the gain stage positions.  Left EHs in the buffer position.  Thought there was an increase in musical "heft"...someone else had called it "meat on the bone" (albeit with a different set of NOS tubes, I think).  Anyway, using the Freya mainly in front of a Merrill Audio Taranis amp (Class D using Hypex Ncore NC500 modules).  It's a very enjoyable combination driving Totem Forest speakers.  Sorry, not used for head phone listening.  The main source these days is an Auralic Aries Mini playing ripped CDs or Tidal.  That runs through a Gungnir with MB upgrade.  The MB upgrade to the Gungnir is one of the better investments made to the system.  I have a Hegel H200 as backup amp.  Decided yesterday to hear how that would sound with the Freya.  The Hegel is an integrated but can be put in HT/by-pass mode.  Acts like a power amp.  Volume defaults to "full on".  I was pleasantly surprised by the presentation.  My impression was of a wider and deeper soundstage with even more "presence" in the music.  The Taranis is definitely more "neutral" tone-wise, however.  With either the Taranis or Hegel in combination with the Freya, it's hard not to want to crank things up because the sound is so "clean"...and by that I do not mean sharp or edgy or bright, rather clean as in free of distortion or fatiguing artifacts.  Metal dome tweeters on the Forests can be punishing with bad source material or bad matches with electronics or wire.  These days, that's all a distant memory.  BTW - like RonO notes above, I too started out mainly listening in JFET mode.  Someone gave me a quad of new production EH 6SN7s.  They got me back listening in tube mode.  I didn't care too much for the as-supplied Russian tubes.  The RCAs make tube mode listening even better though I think interconnect changes had a bigger effect on sound with Freya than tube changes.   I am curious, however, about the new production Tung-sols.  Actually thought I was getting out of tubes when I bought the Freya which was purchased to replace or at least back up a 6H30, EZ80 rectifier pre-amp.   Got the Freya because it was solid state and for its ability to operate as a passive device and for its balanced design.  Now I seem to be back collecting glass bottles.


----------



## JohnBal

Ghosthouse said:


> Hopefully relevant to @franz159 ...
> I continue to be very happy with the Freya.  Recently installed some NOS clear glass RCAs in the gain stage positions.  Left EHs in the buffer position.  Thought there was an increase in musical "heft"...someone else had called it "meat on the bone" (albeit with a different set of NOS tubes, I think).  Anyway, using the Freya mainly in front of a Merrill Audio Taranis amp (Class D using Hypex Ncore NC500 modules).  It's a very enjoyable combination driving Totem Forest speakers.  Sorry, not used for head phone listening.  The main source these days is an Auralic Aries Mini playing ripped CDs or Tidal.  That runs through a Gungnir with MB upgrade.  The MB upgrade to the Gungnir is one of the better investments made to the system.  I have a Hegel H200 as backup amp.  Decided yesterday to hear how that would sound with the Freya.  The Hegel is an integrated but can be put in HT/by-pass mode.  Acts like a power amp.  Volume defaults to "full on".  I was pleasantly surprised by the presentation.  My impression was of a wider and deeper soundstage with even more "presence" in the music.  The Taranis is definitely more "neutral" tone-wise, however.  With either the Taranis or Hegel in combination with the Freya, it's hard not to want to crank things up because the sound is so "clean"...and by that I do not mean sharp or edgy or bright, rather clean as in free of distortion or fatiguing artifacts.  Metal dome tweeters on the Forests can be punishing with bad source material or bad matches with electronics or wire.  These days, that's all a distant memory.  BTW - like RonO notes above, I too started out mainly listening in JFET mode.  Someone gave me a quad of new production EH 6SN7s.  They got me back listening in tube mode.  I didn't care too much for the as-supplied Russian tubes.  The RCAs make tube mode listening even better though I think interconnect changes had a bigger effect on sound with Freya than tube changes.   I am curious, however, about the new production Tung-sols.  Actually thought I was getting out of tubes when I bought the Freya which was purchased to replace or at least back up a 6H30, EZ80 rectifier pre-amp.   Got the Freya because it was solid state and for its ability to operate as a passive device and for its balanced design.  Now I seem to be back collecting glass bottles.


Thanks for the impressions!


----------



## purehifi192

I'm in the process of experimenting with non-stock tubes for the Freya with a couple different tubes.  I have a pair of RCA redbase as well as Sylvania VT231.  I'm thinking the redbase for Freya's output stage on the left and the VT231s for the gain stage on the right.

In general, what type os tube qualities would I look for in the output stage vs the gain stage when I do not have a 4 matching tubes?  Any rules of the road to follow?


----------



## purehifi192

winders said:


> The left tubes are the output buffer stage and the right tubes are the gain stage. Put the good tubes on the right!



Per my above note, I'm under the impression the "better" tubes go on the output, i.e., left, positions, not the gain position on the right.


----------



## sam6550a

purehifi192 said:


> Per my above note, I'm under the impression the "better" tubes go on the output, i.e., left, positions, not the gain position on the right.


The 'better' tubes should go in the gain stage position. The output cathode follower stage has voltage loss [rather than gain] and is less sensitive to tube differences. That said, try them in either position, and decide which configuration sounds better to you in your system.


----------



## purehifi192

Thank you for the clarification.  Definitely planning on trying them out in different locations.


----------



## winders

I guess I don't need to post anymore.....


----------



## brad1138 (Sep 1, 2017)

To deal with the fact the Freya has no HT passthrough    I use a quality RCA switch box to switch between it and my Emotiva PrePro into my Citation Amp. The one I had custom made failed and I want to go a different route. I have found 3 options:

http://www.decware.com/newsite/ZSB.html

http://www.goldpt.com/sw4.html

http://www.homehifi.co.uk/S/tc-7240.htm

The first 2 are good looking and very good quality units, but at nearly $400...  And if I want to upgrade the ZSB connectors, that another $150...

The 3rd one looks good quality and has good reviews (like the rest), I almost pulled the trigger on it last night, but having 2 switches, it has twice as much potential for signal degradation.

I hate spending so much on a darn switch, but I didn't spend so much time putting my system together to have it degraded at that point.

Anyone have any thoughts? (maybe I should start a separate thread). Or is anyone else doing the same thing and have a recommendation?

Thanks


----------



## roxrite

I want to use Freya as an active preamp connected to a ragnarok and use the rag as a headphone amp.
My aim is to make the rag a little warmer with the Freya ..
So a mix between solid state and a little tube Sound.
Did anybody try it out with headphones and got  good results ?

Would actually any tube preamp would do the same Job with headphone amps or are there things to consider ? 

thanks a lot


----------



## DrJam

brad1138 said:


> To deal with the fact the Freya has no HT passthrough    I use a quality RCA switch box to switch between it and my Emotiva PrePro into my Citation Amp. The one I had custom made failed and I want to go a different route. I have found 3 options:
> 
> http://www.decware.com/newsite/ZSB.html
> 
> ...



Schiit SYS?


----------



## brad1138

DrJam said:


> Schiit SYS?



I had thought of that and I actually use a SYS in my secondary system, but even with the volume maxed, the signal path still goes through the potentiometer. Seems like needless "extra signal path". May or may not make a noticable difference, but I would like something with just 1 clean as possible "switch".


----------



## brad1138 (Sep 10, 2017)

brad1138 said:


> To deal with the fact the Freya has no HT passthrough    I use a quality RCA switch box to switch between it and my Emotiva PrePro into my Citation Amp. The one I had custom made failed and I want to go a different route. I have found 3 options:
> 
> http://www.decware.com/newsite/ZSB.html
> 
> ...




OK, for everyone that couldn't sleep, not knowing what direction I went.... 

I found a quality switch box that uses the same internal switch as the Goldpoint and Decware, for ~$200.







I know I probably could have gotten one for under $50 that sounded "just as good" but I like having "better" quality.

My previous switchbox, only had 2 inputs, since this has more, I decided to add another component, a Schiit SYS. I like to listen to music all day, but I don't like that much wear on the tubes. So now, out of my Modi MB, I hit a pair of Monster Cable Y adapters like these:






1 pair of cables goes to the Freya, 1 to the SYS, then their outputs go to the switch box, along with the main output from my Emotiva Prepro.

It works very well,  now I have a work around for the Freya not having HT passthrough, or the ability to turn tubes off when not using them.

If I am actually sitting down and listening to music, I'll use the Freya, otherwise, the SYS. I did a quick comparison, between the SYS and the passive mode on the Freya. W/O actually sitting down, the Freya sounded a bit smoother, but really fairly close.

I am very pleased with the results. So I now spent ~$1,000  For Freya/SYS/Dodocus, but I don't think i could have found a better tube preamp, with HTPT and the ability to turn off tubes for that much.


----------



## brad1138 (Sep 12, 2017)

Also, just came up with a solution for the _brilliant _idea of having the power switch in back.... I had a 3rd unutilized AMX PC1, which toggles AC with a simple short. So I installed another rocker switch, and wired it to the PC1, and plugger the freya into it.





Now the left rocker turns the Freya on/off, the one next to it, turns on 1 of my ACE-515 line conditioners, which powers up the Citation amp, Mimby and CD transport (3rd AMX & ACE-515 combo runs Surround/center/sub amps-not used with Freya 2.0 listening). I could have combined it to 1 switch, but if I don't wait for the Freya to finish powering up before I turn the amp on, the amp sometimes goes into protection when the Freya comes on.


----------



## Ghosthouse

I've seen other comments about Schitt's placement of the On/Off switch.  I recognize this makes access difficult for some.  Personally, I applaud their choice from a design aesthetic point of view and enjoy the clean looking face and minimalist design found in my Asgard, Gungnir and Freya components.  Again, I realize nice aesthetics won't outweigh the aggravation inaccessibility causes for some - but I did wish to suggest there in fact might have been some "good thinking" in that placement choice.


----------



## brad1138 (Sep 12, 2017)

Ghosthouse said:


> I've seen other comments about Schitt's placement of the On/Off switch.  I recognize this makes access difficult for some.  Personally, I applaud their choice from a design aesthetic point of view and enjoy the clean looking face and minimalist design found in my Asgard, Gungnir and Freya components.  Again, I realize nice aesthetics won't outweigh the aggravation inaccessibility causes for some - but I did wish to suggest there in fact might have been some "good thinking" in that placement choice.



I am guessing they thought the same thing. But 1 more button just like the rest, on the front left or just left of the current buttons/lights, I don't think would have made much difference aesthetically.


----------



## belgiangenius

brad1138 said:


> Also, just came up with a solution for the _brilliant _idea of having the power switch in back.... I had an extra AMX PC1, which toggles AC with a simple short. So I installed another rocker switch, and wired it to the PC1, and plugger the freya into it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I don't know what Freya is doing during power-up, but it puts my power amp into protection for a few seconds too.


----------



## Mike Thompson

belgiangenius said:


> I don't know what Freya is doing during power-up, but it puts my power amp into protection for a few seconds too.


Pretty sure it's from the tubes coming online. I always wait for the Freya to be operational before powering on my amp.


----------



## Ghosthouse

Agree with belgiangenius, I had been taught with separates to power up sources first,  pre-amp second, and power amp last.  Reverse this order when shutting down.


----------



## bmanone

Ghosthouse said:


> Agree with belgiangenius, I had been taught with separates to power up sources first,  pre-amp second, and power amp last.  Reverse this order when shutting down.


I use this switch to turn components on and off in my system, all switches are up front.  I use the Main switch to power on the Bimby and RaspberryPi; the Aux switch to power on the Freya; and the Tx switch to power on the Power Amplifier and Sub-woofer.  The Bimby and Pi stay powered on 24/7 (except during thunderstorms), the Freya is power on first and then the amp and sub.  Power off sequence is amp and sub and then Freya.


 


I was lucky to find this use switch a local Houston electornic parts outlet store, not sure where you find a new one today.


----------



## brad1138

bmanone said:


> I use this switch to turn components on and off in my system, all switches are up front.  I use the Main switch to power on the Bimby and RaspberryPi; the Aux switch to power on the Freya; and the Tx switch to power on the Power Amplifier and Sub-woofer.  The Bimby and Pi stay powered on 24/7 (except during thunderstorms), the Freya is power on first and then the amp and sub.  Power off sequence is amp and sub and then Freya.
> 
> I was lucky to find this use switch a local Houston electornic parts outlet store, not sure where you find a new one today.



Nice, 

I have everything automated. Switch for Freya, Switch for everything else for 2.0 listening, and Emotiva Prepro triggers everything for surround sound (includes main citation amp, but not Freya). Kind of fun engineering it, and makes it all easier.


----------



## belgiangenius

My Freya and Yamaha B2 are on the same switch.

I'm quite sure a preamp is not supposed to be doing anything at power up that makes the power amp fear for its life.


----------



## DoubleIPA

bmanone said:


> I was lucky to find this use switch a local Houston electornic parts outlet store, not sure where you find a new one today.


I have no idea either http://www.furmanpower.com/products/all/power-sequencing/all


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## bmanone (Sep 12, 2017)

If I power down the Freya before the amp and subwoofer, I get a very noticeable pop through the subwoofer and speakers . I guess some power down transients get though before the Freya's muting relay cuts the signal. Also, if I power on the amp and subwoofer before the Freya I get pop through the speakers.


----------



## franz159

bmanone said:


> If I power down the Freya before the amp and subwoofer, I get a very noticeable pop through the subwoofer and speakers . I guess some power down transients get though before the Freya's muting relay cuts the signal. Also, if I power on the amp and subwoofer before the Freya I get pop through the speakers.



After a lot of thinking I ended up not buying the Freya, but a Micro Zotl 2.
In the manual of my Micro Zotl [tube] pre I read:

*CAUTION*: when connecting to a direct coupled solid state power amplifier, the turn on and

turn off transients might be dangerous to the speakers and possibly the amplifier. *It is necessary*

*that when using the MZ2 as a preamplifier with direct coupled solid state power amps, first*

*turn on the MZ2, then turn on the power amplifier, and when powering your system off,*

*first turn off the power amplifier, then turn off the MZ2*. This is not an issue when using

tube power amps.

I guess this does not apply only to my pre....


----------



## socklosk

I have a 6SN7GT - VT-231 JAN RCA tube and when looking down at it, only one side of the tube is lighting up brightly. Using a Sencore TC162 Mighty Mite VII Tube Tester, everything looks fine. Is there a serious problem with this tube that will harm my preamp?


----------



## bagwell359

Synergist969 said:


> Now that Freya's are beginning to come into possession of more/many(?) of us "Schiit-O-Philes"...
> 
> Of those of you who have owned or at least heard both and Freya and Ragnarok, (as a pre-amp), in your audio systems, would you please compare/contrast the sound qualities of both Freya and Ragnarok...?...frequency curve/timbre, image size/breadth/depth, image specificity, etc...as I currently use my "Rag" as my stereo system pre-amp, but am VERY curious/interested in the Freya as a dedicated pre-amp, so as to not have to power-up another amplifier within my pre-amp, (60 watts/channel...),  when I am listen to my speakers, (driven by an Aragon 4004 amp)...
> 
> ...


----------



## bagwell359

I've had the Ragnarok for about a year.  I'm interested (very) in the Freya.  I have not compared them directly, but I did compare the Ragnarok driving a Pass X-150 vs an Adcom GFP-750 driving the Rag.  The Rag LS section was clearly the weak sister.  It did not have the image width of the Adcom (Pass designed), the depth was a little short too, but not as notable.  The highs were rougher, and subtle overtones tended to give out early.

I'm assuming that the Freya would play with the big boys.  Eventually the Rag will go to full time 'phone duty, and possibly mini monitor duty in a second system.


----------



## sam6550a

socklosk said:


> I have a 6SN7GT - VT-231 JAN RCA tube and when looking down at it, only one side of the tube is lighting up brightly. Using a Sencore TC162 Mighty Mite VII Tube Tester, everything looks fine. Is there a serious problem with this tube that will harm my preamp?


No problem. The winding of the filaments is somewhat variable inside the cathode tube, resulting in the visible differences. Remember, the filament is there only to heat the cathode so that it will emit electrons, so the heater 'brightness' is insignificant, as long as each triode is roughly the same in gain.


----------



## winders

bmanone said:


> If I power down the Freya before the amp and subwoofer, I get a very noticeable pop through the subwoofer and speakers . I guess some power down transients get though before the Freya's muting relay cuts the signal. Also, if I power on the amp and subwoofer before the Freya I get pop through the speakers.



I always mute a Freya before I switch her off. That eliminates the pop.....of course, you could always turn the amp off first too.


----------



## shultzee

I have had some frustrations sourcing quality 6sn7's .    Even with higher quality tubes I have got some noisy , microphonic tubes.   Thought I would share a quality tube seller.....http://stores.ebay.com/absolutetubes/   .   Absolutetubes knows what he is talking about and followed up with some excellent 55 cbs hytrons.   He has some stash of 6sn7 so its worth asking him whats available.  Just fwiw.


----------



## socklosk (Sep 13, 2017)

Best tubes for the Freya listening strictly to classical music, much with vocals?

Several pairs 6SN7GT TungSol black oval (round) plates, blackglass which I personally like a lot
Several pairs 6SN7W JAN Sylvania blackplate clearglass, black base, heavy top getter which seems to work well in the gain stage for classical music
Several pairs 6SN7GT - VT-231 JAN RCA, blackplate greyglass, I plan on using these mainly on the output stage (left two tubes)
One pair coming of 6SN7GT - VT-231 JAN Sylvania, blackplate clearglass, bottom getter, medium glass

Several pairs Sylvania 6SN7GTA (Chrome Top) which I do not like even in the output stage, although better than the stock tubes
One pair 6H8C phony Russian Military nickel base which does not do a great job even on the output stage

Which tubes would you guys suggest for the gain and output stage? Feel free to suggest other which I have not listed.

I have a GUNGNIR MULTIBIT Dac, Wyred 4 sound ST-500 amp, and upgraded Maggie 1.7 speakers.


----------



## winders

My favorite tubes for the gain stage are Raytheon 6SN7GT VT-231 tubes with the 8 copper rods, bottom square getter, and "T" wiring below the lower mica plate. I like Sylvania 6SN7WGTA or Sylvania 6SN7GT tubes in the output stage.


----------



## purehifi192

Hoping someone can provide some suggestions; maybe some people here are experiencing the same thing.  I've had my Freya for 6 weeks now and already sent it back twice for different reasons: first time was for a fuse that went out in the first week, and the second was for the problem I'm going to describe.

My Freya produces a a static-y/pop-y sound from the speaker out of only one channel as I change the volume up or down.  I can successfully get the bad sound out of the other speaker when I switch either the input cables into or output cables out of the Freya.  Always happens with one channel in the Freya, irrespective of the speaker it's connected to, and never the other.  I don't even need to be playing music, the source feeding the Freya, Yggdrasil in my case, just needs a powered on source level input along with sample rate indicators in an on state.

I'm running monoblock Vidars into 4 Ohms, 85 db efficiency speakers.  I've also tried to isolate the problem to see if one of the Vidars is acting up along with the usual checking speaker cable connections and what not.

Schiit has tested and evaluated the system, but don't see a problem.

Why would this happen consistently out of one one channel in the Freya?  And will these pops damage the speaker after sustained use if left untreated (seems obvious, but thought I'd ask anyway)?  The speaker that this impacts produces a fairly low level hum that's ~+3dB higher than the other speaker that runs silently and has no noticeable hum at all.  Again, tried changing the speaker connections and Vidars, but the humming from the one speaker remains with that speaker unlike the popping noise I describe above.

Don't know if it's a bad Freya, bad match with my system, or something else.  Ideas to test?


----------



## Mike Thompson

purehifi192 said:


> Hoping someone can provide some suggestions; maybe some people here are experiencing the same thing.  I've had my Freya for 6 weeks now and already sent it back twice for different reasons: first time was for a fuse that went out in the first week, and the second was for the problem I'm going to describe.
> 
> My Freya produces a a static-y/pop-y sound from the speaker out of only one channel as I change the volume up or down.  I can successfully get the bad sound out of the other speaker when I switch either the input cables into or output cables out of the Freya.  Always happens with one channel in the Freya, irrespective of the speaker it's connected to, and never the other.  I don't even need to be playing music, the source feeding the Freya, Yggdrasil in my case, just needs a powered on source level input along with sample rate indicators in an on state.
> 
> ...


I would suggest taking the Freya right out of the system and running the Yggdrasil directly to the amp. You'll need use digital files and control the volume with your software so be super careful about not having it up too high initially. If the problem is gone then you can almost be sure it's the Freya.


----------



## purehifi192

Mike Thompson said:


> I would suggest taking the Freya right out of the system and running the Yggdrasil directly to the amp. You'll need use digital files and control the volume with your software so be super careful about not having it up too high initially. If the problem is gone then you can almost be sure it's the Freya.



Hhmmm... problem seems to indicate bad channel on the Yggy output.  Thank you @Mike Thompson.  So obvious I should have checked before.

The good Yggy output when placed into both Vidars does not emit any static or hum.  The bad Yggy output produces a hum at either speaker.  However, I was unable to create the static/pop sound when changing the volume digitally.


----------



## Mike Thompson

purehifi192 said:


> Hhmmm... problem seems to indicate bad channel on the Yggy output.  Thank you @Mike Thompson.  So obvious I should have checked before.
> 
> The good Yggy output when placed into both Vidars does not emit any static or hum.  The bad Yggy output produces a hum at either speaker.  However, I was unable to create the static/pop sound when changing the volume digitally.


Glad I could help  
Here's hoping you solve it quickly.


----------



## thomascrown

I had the same popping sound and hum using a bad batch of tubes, do you have the noise using the Freya in passive / jfet mode?


----------



## purehifi192

thomascrown said:


> I had the same popping sound and hum using a bad batch of tubes, do you have the noise using the Freya in passive / jfet mode?



Yes, I do.  Confirmed it's the Yggy.  On the way back to Schiit for a review.  My speaker is messed up though


----------



## trappedintime (Sep 14, 2017)

I'm having some issues with my Freya. I switched out a couple of noisy NOS tubes and put the stock ones back in as I hadn't been listening in tube mode much but wanted to without any noise. I did that successfully, but now I don't get any sound when I switch to JFET buffer. Tube mode sounds fine (as fine as the stock tubes will sound), but I can't for the life of me figure out why I can no longer output from JFET buffer mode.

Has anyone had the JFET buffer output just go dead? I have some blue jeans XLRs running to a Parasound A21. Never had any issue with this combo before, and I've removed and reinserted the tubes, as well as tried playback without the tubes in, but still not able to get any audio outside of tube mode. Really puzzled and was hoping someone else had a solution short of "your schiit is broken, send it in for repair".


----------



## Ghosthouse (Sep 14, 2017)

trappedintime said:


> I'm having some issues with my Freya. I switched out a couple of noisy NOS tubes and put the stock ones back in as I hadn't been listening in tube mode much but wanted to without any noise. I did that successfully, but now I don't get any sound when I switch to JFET buffer. Tube mode sounds fine (as fine as the stock tubes will sound), but I can't for the life of me figure out why I can no longer output from JFET buffer mode.
> 
> Has anyone had the JFET buffer output just go dead? I have some blue jeans XLRs running to a Parasound A21. Never had any issue with this combo before, and I've removed and reinserted the tubes, as well as tried playback without the tubes in, but still not able to get any audio outside of tube mode. Really puzzled and was hoping someone else had a solution short of "your schiit is broken, send it in for repair".



So far, no problems with my Freya.  Curious if you are able to get sound running in pure passive mode although I'm not sure what use that will be as a diagnostic...perhaps something truly isolated to JFET rather than more "systemic".  Might be helpful to know if you DO have to send in for service.  Sorry for your problem.


----------



## Mike Thompson

trappedintime said:


> I'm having some issues with my Freya. I switched out a couple of noisy NOS tubes and put the stock ones back in as I hadn't been listening in tube mode much but wanted to without any noise. I did that successfully, but now I don't get any sound when I switch to JFET buffer. Tube mode sounds fine (as fine as the stock tubes will sound), but I can't for the life of me figure out why I can no longer output from JFET buffer mode.
> 
> Has anyone had the JFET buffer output just go dead? I have some blue jeans XLRs running to a Parasound A21. Never had any issue with this combo before, and I've removed and reinserted the tubes, as well as tried playback without the tubes in, but still not able to get any audio outside of tube mode. Really puzzled and was hoping someone else had a solution short of "your schiit is broken, send it in for repair".


Are you sure you're getting no sound at all in passive mode? Tube mode gain is 14dB - passive is considerably quieter.


----------



## trappedintime

Mike Thompson said:


> Are you sure you're getting no sound at all in passive mode? Tube mode gain is 14dB - passive is considerably quieter.


If I'm getting anything out of passive mode, I'm not hearing it. I switched to tube mode, got it at a reasonable volume (high noon), then switched to the other two modes and moved the pot from 12 all the way to full volume and I couldn't hear anything in passive or jfet. I'm just trying to understand how those outputs could go dead but I can still output tube.


----------



## cskippy

Are you using balanced inputs?  Freya can only output balanced signal with balanced input in passive and JFET modes.


----------



## trappedintime

cskippy said:


> Are you using balanced inputs?  Freya can only output balanced signal with balanced input in passive and JFET modes.


Well now I feel stupid. I switched out DACs when I was making this change and just used a pair of RCA cables I had handy. I just re-read the manual and it's there, not very clearly or mentioned in the FAQ, but it's there at #2 of the connections page. Thanks for relieving me that my Schiit was broken.


----------



## cskippy

No worries!  I thought that might be the case when you said both passive and JFET weren't working.  Easy thing to overlook.


----------



## winders

Delete.


----------



## purehifi192 (Sep 14, 2017)

Mike Thompson said:


> Glad I could help
> Here's hoping you solve it quickly.



Certainly wouldn't recommend anyone else bypassing the attenuation a pre-amp offers to go directly from Yggdrasil to Vidar to speakers.  My speaker that had been connected began to smoke.  There may be two issues, one with my Yggy and the other a loose or ground connection in my speaker.  The two don't get along well.  Vidar never went into thermal protection mode.  Again, 4 Ohm speaker in monoblock configuration so that couldn't have helped.

I'm working to repair/replace the speaker that was acting up.  Unsure if it's directly related to being connecting to the bad Yggy out, to be clear through the Freya, not just in the short test I ran to isolate earlier.  There was a hum in the speaker that is not present in the other.  I only noticed it after getting the Vidar and all its power, but am unsure if it was there before or if it was caused by Yggy's out.

Either way, I hope to have a like-new system in the next week or so.


----------



## Mike Thompson

purehifi192 said:


> Certainly wouldn't recommend anyone else bypassing the attenuation a pre-amp offers to go directly from Yggdrasil to Vidar to speakers.  My speaker that had been connected began to smoke.  There may be two issues, one with my Yggy and the other a loose or ground connection in my speaker.  The two don't get along well.  Vidar never went into thermal protection mode.  Again, 4 Ohm speaker in monoblock configuration so that couldn't have helped.
> 
> I'm working to repair/replace the speaker that was acting up.  Unsure if it's directly related to being connecting to the bad Yggy out, to be clear through the Freya, not just in the short test I ran to isolate earlier.  There was a hum in the speaker that is not present in the other.  I only noticed it after getting the Vidar and all its power, but am unsure if it was there before or if it was caused by Yggy's out.
> 
> Either way, I hope to have a like-new system in the next week or so.


Connecting directly to a DAC is not uncommon - but you have to watch the input volume as the Yggy has no volume control. I actually ran directly from my Gungnir Multibit for a few weeks while I waited for the Freya to get back in stock.


----------



## chroman (Sep 15, 2017)

Adding a Freya in middle of Yggdrasil and Ragnarok will reveal another dimension of reality (or add tubes coloration) that Ragnarok alone does not?


----------



## motberg

cskippy said:


> Freya can only output balanced signal with balanced input in passive and JFET modes.


The way I read this is that.. if I was using a set of XLR balanced inputs, then the Freya could not output a balanced signal through its XLR outputs when in tube mode.
I think maybe this info is missing some RCA/SE qualifiers in the statement?


----------



## cskippy

In context, answering the post above it makes sense but yeah, I can see how that would lead to confusion. 

Simple explanation:

Passive/JFET: rca in rca out only. Xlr in rca/xlr out.
Tube: rca in rca/xlr out. Xlr in rca/xlr out.


----------



## hornytoad

Enjoying the Freya , wondering when the 6sn7 LISST tubes will be available . I like the Jfet mode the best as I'm getting a little too much 
tube noise for my liking . Funny thing is if I start the Freya in jfet mode and then switch to tube mode, there is very little tube noise but if 
I start the Freya in tube mode , that's when I get the most tube noise . Has anyone else noticed this ? So I make sure to end the listening 
session and turn the Freya off when it's in jfet mode . 

Has anyone tried some of the more expensive new production tubes like the Northern Electric, Shuangang Treasure , Sophia , etc and 
how has the tube noise been ? I'm using new production Tung-Sols right now .


----------



## Mike Thompson

My Freya stays in tube mode all the time and I have had no trouble with tube noise at all. I have a pair of Northern Electric tubes on the gain side. I'm very pleased with them.


----------



## jseymour

Same.  Always in tube mode and no noise.  Tube roll a variety of 6F8G, 6SN7 and 7N7 in gain.  Currently it's 1960 Raytheon 6SN7 and have standardized on Ken-Rad 6C8G for the output buffer. 

I will repeat myself with strongly recommending the use of socket savers.  Using them raises the socket level to the top of the Freya which corrects what I consider to be the major design flaw of the Freya.  Even if you don't tube roll, you will have to replace your tubes at some point.  Plus it moves the heat away from the PC board.


----------



## Mike Thompson

jseymour said:


> Same.  Always in tube mode and no noise.  Tube roll a variety of 6F8G, 6SN7 and 7N7 in gain.  Currently it's 1960 Raytheon 6SN7 and have standardized on Ken-Rad 6C8G for the output buffer.
> 
> I will repeat myself with strongly recommending the use of socket savers.  Using them raises the socket level to the top of the Freya which corrects what I consider to be the major design flaw of the Freya.  Even if you don't tube roll, you will have to replace your tubes at some point.  Plus it moves the heat away from the PC board.


I too highly recommend the use of socket savers with the Freya. It runs considerably cooler with them.


----------



## hornytoad

Mike Thompson said:


> I too highly recommend the use of socket savers with the Freya. It runs considerably cooler with them.


What socket savers are you using ?


----------



## Mike Thompson

I bought them off ebay - he doesn't seem to cary them anymore so can't send a link. I did have to reduce the outside diameter a bit - was easy to do with a dremel. The hole in the Freya is surprisingly small and I didn't want to return them and wait for four more. It really was no big deal to do but I'm sure I've seen comments from people who had some that fit right away. 
Socket savers move the heat up and out of the tube and also allow you to use tubes, like the Psvane, that are too big otherwise.


----------



## jseymour

hornytoad said:


> What socket savers are you using ?



I bought mine from *The Tube Center*, but it looks like they don't have them anymore.  Google *8 Pin Octal Tube socket saver* or and you will see many selections. Make sure you buy socket savers and not pure sockets or tube bases.  Socket savers are easier to get tubes in and out of.  Mine look exactly like the ones here:  http://www.partsconnexion.com/SOCKET-74489.html


----------



## Dinche

Got Freya a week ago. It's still early days, but this little unit is showing promising signs. I run Freya with the supplied tubes for the first two days. Their build quality is shocking, but they didn't sound terrible. Open highs and restrained midrange. Swapped 'em for a quad matched new production Tung Sol's and things just went downhill. Tung Sol's have better definition and much more controlled lows, but they made Freya sound lifeless. However, that's not their biggest problem. All 4 emit the buzzing/sizzling noise and microphonics galore.
I contacted the seller to check if this could be due to a bad batch, but haven't heard from them yet. Off to look for some NOS on Ebay.


----------



## hornytoad

Dinche said:


> Got Freya a week ago. It's still early days, but this little unit is showing promising signs. I run Freya with the supplied tubes for the first two days. Their build quality is shocking, but they didn't sound terrible. Open highs and restrained midrange. Swapped 'em for a quad matched new production Tung Sol's and things just went downhill. Tung Sol's have better definition and much more controlled lows, but they made Freya sound lifeless. However, that's not their biggest problem. All 4 emit the buzzing/sizzling noise and microphonics galore.
> I contacted the seller to check if this could be due to a bad batch, but haven't heard from them yet. Off to look for some NOS on Ebay.


Had the same issue with a couple of new production Tung Sols but also did with the stock tubes .


----------



## Dinche

hornytoad said:


> Had the same issue with a couple of new production Tung Sols but also did with the stock tubes .



Could this have something to do with Freya's design? High gain and (or) being fussy with tubes?

Regards


----------



## hornytoad (Sep 22, 2017)

Dinche said:


> Could this have something to do with Freya's design? High gain and (or) being fussy with tubes?
> 
> Regards


I have no idea . I want to try some Treasure Series CV-181Z or Sophia tubes but they are really expensive to see if the issue goes away .
At this point I would prefer LISST tubes for the Freya and forget about tube rolling ( I do have other tube amps , no issue with Tung sol Kt-120’s )
I can hear the tube noise in my listening position on quiet music


----------



## jseymour

You can say the Freya is a little fussy with tubes due to its gain.  But I would rather say it will highlight which tubes are not good.  I run all NOS and yes some I could not use, but no more than 10%.  I use 6C8Gs in the output buffer position and they are higher gain by about 50% than a 6SN7 and a couple were noisy.  But when they are good, all is silent.


----------



## hornytoad

jseymour said:


> You can say the Freya is a little fussy with tubes due to its gain.  But I would rather say it will highlight which tubes are not good.  I run all NOS and yes some I could not use, but no more than 10%.  I use 6C8Gs in the output buffer position and they are higher gain by about 50% than a 6SN7 and a couple were noisy.  But when they are good, all is silent.


Yeah I suspect you are right.


----------



## hornytoad

jseymour said:


> You can say the Freya is a little fussy with tubes due to its gain.  But I would rather say it will highlight which tubes are not good.  I run all NOS and yes some I could not use, but no more than 10%.  I use 6C8Gs in the output buffer position and they are higher gain by about 50% than a 6SN7 and a couple were noisy.  But when they are good, all is silent.


Question, can socket savers possible reduce noise ? Not familiar with them.


----------



## jseymour

I don't see how.  What they do is save wear and tear on your gear's built-in (soldered) sockets.  In the case of the Freya they also do two extra things due to their increased height.  They take the heat away from the PCB and they make tube changes so much easier because now the socket is level with the top versus in the preamp.  I will add one more benefit.  They make the Freya look cooler because now you see the whole tube.  Aesthetics can be important.


----------



## hornytoad

jseymour said:


> I don't see how.  What they do is save wear and tear on your gear's built-in (soldered) sockets.  In the case of the Freya they also do two extra things due to their increased height.  They take the heat away from the PCB and they make tube changes so much easier because now the socket is level with the top versus in the preamp.  I will add one more benefit.  They make the Freya look cooler because now you see the whole tube.  Aesthetics can be important.


Taking away heat from the PCB board maybe helps with a noisy tube?? I have no idea but we will see as I'm gonna order 4 .


----------



## jseymour

Taking heat away from the PCB helps the longevity of the gear and the tube, but I doubt it has any impact on making the tube noisy.  You have to have patience with tubes.  Tubes can be noisy right from start up and the noise never goes away.  But the noise might go away after it has had a chance to "burn in".  And then there is end of life, where the tube is no longer performing to spec. When I find a tube that has noise, I put it aside until I go to work.  I will leave it powered up during the day and if it is still noisy when I return I know it is no good.


----------



## Dinche

jseymour said:


> Taking heat away from the PCB helps the longevity of the gear and the tube, but I doubt it has any impact on making the tube noisy.  You have to have patience with tubes.  Tubes can be noisy right from start up and the noise never goes away.  But the noise might go away after it has had a chance to "burn in".  And then there is end of life, where the tube is no longer performing to spec. When I find a tube that has noise, I put it aside until I go to work.  I will leave it powered up during the day and if it is still noisy when I return I know it is no good.



Thanks for the tips mate. I' ll leave mine overnight, and see what happens tomorrow morning.

Do you have any recommendation for socket savers I could get off the e-bay, that would fit into Freya's case?

Kind Regards


----------



## jseymour

I bought mine from www.thetubecenter.com, but they don't have them anymore.  Search for "8 pin socket saver".  You do not want just sockets.  Make sure they look like this:
http://www.partsconnexion.com/socket_saver.html .  
Enlarge the picture and you will see that socket savers have small slots on both sides of the pin hole.  It makes it much easier to insert and remove the tubes.


----------



## hornytoad

Question : Will a noisy tube show up more in the gain or the output stage? Or is doesn't matter.


----------



## winders

hornytoad said:


> Question : Will a noisy tube show up more in the gain or the output stage? Or is doesn't matter.



Gain.....


----------



## hornytoad

winders said:


> Gain.....


It makes sense , thanks for your reply.


----------



## Dinche

jseymour said:


> I bought mine from www.thetubecenter.com, but they don't have them anymore.  Search for "8 pin socket saver".  You do not want just sockets.  Make sure they look like this:
> http://www.partsconnexion.com/socket_saver.html .
> Enlarge the picture and you will see that socket savers have small slots on both sides of the pin hole.  It makes it much easier to insert and remove the tubes.



Are there any significant differences between the ones sold over @ Ebay from Hong Kong/Chinese vendors and U.S/CAD online stores? They all look the same, judging by the photos. Probably all made in China?

Regards


----------



## DrJam

Dinche said:


> Are there any significant differences between the ones sold over @ Ebay from Hong Kong/Chinese vendors and U.S/CAD online stores? They all look the same, judging by the photos. Probably all made in China?
> 
> Regards



Can't answer your question first hand, but IIRC someone in this thread did buy some that don't fit the holes in freya.  Don't recall where, but ones that don't fit do exist.
I got the ones from partsconnexion (TS-8) and they fit fine.


----------



## motberg

Would the Saga be a more compatible option (vs. Freya) if attempting to use a ECC88 (6922) tube with a ECC88 to 6SN7 adapter?
Thanks!


----------



## KoshNaranek (Sep 24, 2017)

motberg said:


> Would the Saga be a more compatible option (vs. Freya) if attempting to use a ECC88 (6922) tube with a ECC88 to 6SN7 adapter?
> Thanks!


The plate voltage on Feya is too high for the small tubes. The nine pin tubes will arc.
Apparently it is theoretically possible in Saga but the mu values are quite different and will probably sound quite poorly. I saw no reason to try it myself.

Edit and Shameless Plug: You may want to read the Saga Tube rolling Thread


----------



## motberg

KoshNaranek said:


> The plate voltage on Feya is too high for the small tubes. The nine pin tubes will arc.
> Apparently it is theoretically possible in Saga but the mu values are quite different and will probably sound quite poorly. I saw no reason to try it myself.
> 
> Edit and Shameless Plug: You may want to read the Saga Tube rolling Thread



Ahhh.. thanks so much for the detailed info...
I am subscribed to the Saga Tube Rolling Thread and following since the beginning, .... actually have bought a pair (thinking of Freya) of RCA 6SN7GTB back in March already in anticipation of either a Freya or Saga...
This thing is I have a lot of various nice 6922's  - so was hoping maybe someone had already tried this... (already bought a pair of adapters also..)

Anyway - thanks again for the info... I need go Google "mu values" now...jejejejeje


----------



## Dinche

Down the rabbit hole . After I had spent $700 on Freya, blew another $350 on tubes. Just placed an order for 7N7 Sylvania's with adapter sockets. Good 6N7 NOS  are getting too expensive.

Regards


----------



## chroman

Thoughts about using the Freya in middle of Yggdrasil and Ragnarok? Will it add tube-coloration that Ragnarok alone does not? Thanks!


----------



## Mike Thompson

chroman said:


> Thoughts about using the Freya in middle of Yggdrasil and Ragnarok? Will it add tube-coloration that Ragnarok alone does not? Thanks!


If you are wanting to add the 'tube' sound I would consider a tube buffer instead. Two components with gain will be tricky to control.


----------



## hornytoad

Whats the best way to remove tube socket savers if you need to? They sure are a tight fit.


----------



## Mike Thompson

hornytoad said:


> Whats the best way to remove tube socket savers if you need to? They sure are a tight fit.


Someone may well have other suggestions but I'm simply considering them a permanent part of the pre. They are tight so the only way I believe I would get mine out would be by removing the top (voiding the warranty). I can think of no reason I would want to remove them and if I sell it I'll simply include them in the sale.


----------



## purehifi192

Mike Thompson said:


> Someone may well have other suggestions but I'm simply considering them a permanent part of the pre. They are tight so the only way I believe I would get mine out would be by removing the top (voiding the warranty). I can think of no reason I would want to remove them and if I sell it I'll simply include them in the sale.



This worked perfectly for me: https://eshop.macsales.com/item/NewerTech/TOOLIPOD/

Had it laying around and it thin enough to slide down the center shaft of the socket saver and start lifting it up from the Freya board.  Also less than a $1.


----------



## purehifi192

socklosk said:


> Best tubes for the Freya listening strictly to classical music, much with vocals?
> 
> Several pairs 6SN7GT TungSol black oval (round) plates, blackglass which I personally like a lot
> Several pairs 6SN7W JAN Sylvania blackplate clearglass, black base, heavy top getter which seems to work well in the gain stage for classical music
> ...



I'm in the process of rolling the below tubes in the different stages.  Haven't yet put my thoughts down to see which tube pairs I prefer.  All are matched pairs.

For the output stage, I plan on using new stock Electro-Harmonix 6SN7 (with the two pairs of Schiit 6H8Cs as backups)
For the input stage, I'm planning on pairs of Tung Sol NOS 6SN7GT black oval, round plate (hopefully soon to be delivered); RCA NOS red base 5692; and Sylvania NOS VT231.

I do plan on testing the "better" tubes in the output stage along with the input stage.  Don't know that I'm clever enough or observant enough to discern a difference, but it will be fun project.


----------



## Mike Thompson

purehifi192 said:


> This worked perfectly for me: https://eshop.macsales.com/item/NewerTech/TOOLIPOD/
> 
> Had it laying around and it thin enough to slide down the center shaft of the socket saver and start lifting it up from the Freya board.  Also less than a $1.


Great tip. Thank you.


----------



## socklosk

purehifi192 said:


> I'm in the process of rolling the below tubes in the different stages.  Haven't yet put my thoughts down to see which tube pairs I prefer.  All are matched pairs.
> 
> For the output stage, I plan on using new stock Electro-Harmonix 6SN7 (with the two pairs of Schiit 6H8Cs as backups)
> For the input stage, I'm planning on pairs of Tung Sol NOS 6SN7GT black oval, round plate (hopefully soon to be delivered); RCA NOS red base 5692; and Sylvania NOS VT231.
> ...


I found that the 6SN7GT - VT-231 JAN Sylvania, blackplates are a much cheaper alternative to the 6SN7GT TungSol black oval (round) plates, for classical music at least.

They can be found here:   http://www.audiotubes.com/6sn7.htm


----------



## thyname

To clarify: when used in Passive mode, everything, including volume control, is in Analog mode?

Anybody hooked up subwoofers on a Frey via RCA (using the XLR outs to the amp)?


----------



## Ghosthouse (Sep 28, 2017)

thyname said:


> To clarify: when used in Passive mode, everything, including volume control, is in Analog mode?
> 
> Anybody hooked up subwoofers on a Frey via RCA (using the XLR outs to the amp)?



@thyname
Can't answer your first question.  I don't understand it.

For your second...
Yes.  I run a pair of SVS SB10 powered subs using the SE outs from the Freya while connecting my power amp to Freya via the balanced out.


----------



## Mike Thompson

thyname said:


> To clarify: when used in Passive mode, everything, including volume control, is in Analog mode?
> 
> Anybody hooked up subwoofers on a Frey via RCA (using the XLR outs to the amp)?


The Freya is an analog device so is always in analog mode. 
I have two subwoofers hooked up to the RCA outputs with the XLR outputs to my power amp. Works great.


----------



## shultzee

Mike Thompson said:


> The Freya is an analog device so is always in analog mode.
> I have two subwoofers hooked up to the RCA outputs with the XLR outputs to my power amp. Works great.




I have the same setup.  Works great.


----------



## Dvdlucena

Soundsgoodtome said:


> Based on these two posts, I now have 2 Psvanes cv181t2 coming in as well as tube savers. So in a span of a few days I'm already about $300 in the hole on tubes. Jeezus what rabbit hole. I shall stop here.
> 
> Idea is Psvane in the gain stage and tung-sol in the buffer.
> 
> So now i find myself with one too many Tung-Sols..*Anyone want to buy a matched pair of Tungsol 6sn7gt then?*


Sorry to re open this thread, but I just saw a you tube video, and the guy used the Psvane and shuag Cv181z without savers, and it looked fine.
Can someone confirm if the black treasure shuang cv181 do not fit freya?

Thanks


----------



## Mike Thompson

Dvdlucena said:


> Sorry to re open this thread, but I just saw a you tube video, and the guy used the Psvane and shuag Cv181z without savers, and it looked fine.
> Can someone confirm if the black treasure shuang cv181 do not fit freya?
> 
> Thanks


I have used both and you need tube savers. They are just slightly too big. Oddly they fit in the Saga - bit bigger hole.


----------



## hornytoad

Mike Thompson said:


> I have used both and you need tube savers. They are just slightly too big. Oddly they fit in the Saga - bit bigger hole.


Yes the Shuang Cv181z will not fit in the Freya without socket savers . 
I have them . They do sound incredible .


----------



## hornytoad (Oct 3, 2017)

Well, I asked myself the question as to whether buying expensive tubes would be an upgrade over the stock and Tung Sol new production tubes I have.

Buying Sophia or the Shuang Cv181z's that I actually bought are damn expensive. Almost as expensive as the amp itself. Not sure about the Sophia's but the Shuang's
required me to also buy tube socket savers, no biggie. 30 bucks or so. Finding ones that will fit through the hole in the Freya was quite the challenge. Only the ones from the Parts Connextion
in Canada worked .Some of the 8 pin socket savers are garbage but not the ones from this Canadian company.

Well is it worth it? I was really suspect but  bought matched quads of the Shuangs  and I can tell you unequivocally the answer is yes. I had noise issues with the stock and Tung-Sols   from my listening
position of 6-7  feet. Some of the stock tubes I threw out , they were just bad.

Here's my advice on tubes. You get what you pay for . For new production I would highly recommend the Shuangs. I just hope they last a long time .

Bite the bullet . Or find some even more expensive NOS tubes.Yeah I know, like me , you didn't think it was gonna get that expensive.


----------



## Mike Thompson

hornytoad said:


> Well, I asked myself the question as to whether buying expensive tubes would be an upgrade over the stock and Tung Sol new production tubes I have.
> 
> Buying Sophia or the Shuang Cv181z's that I actually bought are damn expensive. Almost as expensive as the amp itself. Not sure about the Sophia's but the Shuang's
> required me to also buy tube socket savers, no biggie. 30 bucks or so. Finding ones that will fit through the hole in the Freya was quite the challenge. Only the ones from the Parts Connextion
> ...


I have used the Shuang's, Psvane's and Northern Electric tubes and rotate them in and out occasionally. I keep the Psvanes in full time on the buffer side and am currently using the Northern Electrics on the gain side. Very happy with all the tubes.


----------



## Dvdlucena

hornytoad said:


> Well, I asked myself the question as to whether buying expensive tubes would be an upgrade over the stock and Tung Sol new production tubes I have.
> 
> Buying Sophia or the Shuang Cv181z's that I actually bought are damn expensive. Almost as expensive as the amp itself. Not sure about the Sophia's but the Shuang's
> required me to also buy tube socket savers, no biggie. 30 bucks or so. Finding ones that will fit through the hole in the Freya was quite the challenge. Only the ones from the Parts Connextion
> ...



Did anyone tryied tube savers from ebay that worked with Freya? Can recomend someone?
I found some savers in the tubemonge store. Quite expensive but seems week built. Anyone used?
http://www.tubemonger.com/mobile/Product.aspx?ProductCode=NOVIB-OCTAL-GE-CINCH


----------



## Alveric

Dvdlucena said:


> Did anyone tryied tube savers from ebay that worked with Freya? Can recomend someone?
> I found some savers in the tubemonge store. Quite expensive but seems week built. Anyone used?
> http://www.tubemonger.com/mobile/Product.aspx?ProductCode=NOVIB-OCTAL-GE-CINCH


I found inexpensive tube savers on Amazon that I installed on the gain side, they seem to work well enough in my Freya and are of OK quality:
Cary Bakelite Vacuum Tube Saver Sockets:
https://www.amazon.com/Cary-Bakelit...eywords=cary+bakelite+vacuum+tube+saver&psc=1
They include the smaller 9-pin along with the 8-pin we need for Freya, which I probably will end up using in one of my other amps.


----------



## hornytoad

Question on tubes as I am a newbie: Which stage will affect audio quality the most,gain or output? Or are they equally important? Thus, what position should your best tubes be placed?


----------



## purehifi192

hornytoad said:


> Question on tubes as I am a newbie: Which stage will affect audio quality the most,gain or output? Or are they equally important? Thus, what position should your best tubes be placed?



Most, including Schiit, have recommended putting "better" tubes in the gain stage (the two to the right).  It's also more practical to have two matched tubes than quad match: one matched pair for the gain on the right and one matched pair for the output on the left.

I don't know this to be fact, just stating the popular opinion.  Your tube listening mileage may vary.


----------



## Ghosthouse

I'd place best tubes in the gain position (right hand pair F to R).


----------



## Mike Thompson

purehifi192 said:


> Most, including Schiit, have recommended putting "better" tubes in the gain stage (the two to the right).  It's also more practical to have two matched tubes than quad match: one matched pair for the gain on the right and one matched pair for the output on the left.
> 
> I don't know this to be fact, just stating the popular opinion.  Your tube listening mileage may vary.


Absolutely correct. Right tubes are gain and your best tubs go there. The left tubes are simply a buffer and are not so important.


----------



## Pandahead

I have found (and have posted this before) that if you really like a pair of tubes in the gain stage that two more as followers enhances the qualities of the gain stage. I have found this true every time. Also the followers can temper the gain stage once you learn a tubes particular qualities.

I have a pair of Psvane's best tightly matched as well as a pair of Robert Shaw CV181's......so I must say if you have spent some bucks on these new productions and want a little adventure, enjoy this aspect of the hobby, and can spend more going down the rabbit hole by all means if possible try some of the NOS classics from the Reference 6SN7 thread's first page. You can start with two in the gain stage to see if they tickle your fancy.

You may find a soundstage, imaging and dynamics coming from Freya that will be more stunning than you thought possible.


----------



## Dvdlucena

Pandahead said:


> I have found (and have posted this before) that if you really like a pair of tubes in the gain stage that two more as followers enhances the qualities of the gain stage. I have found this true every time. Also the followers can temper the gain stage once you learn a tubes particular qualities.
> 
> I have a pair of Psvane's best tightly matched as well as a pair of Robert Shaw CV181's......so I must say if you have spent some bucks on these new productions and want a little adventure, enjoy this aspect of the hobby, and can spend more going down the rabbit hole by all means if possible try some of the NOS classics from the Reference 6SN7 thread's first page. You can start with two in the gain stage to see if they tickle your fancy.
> 
> You may find a soundstage, imaging and dynamics coming from Freya that will be more stunning than you thought possible.



Very nice impressions!!
Did someone tryied the mullard cv181 ecc32 in the Freya ?
Did worked? Thanks


----------



## buke9

Just got the Freya today and already liking what I hear but wouldn’t mind finding a tube that is maybe a bit warmer. The stock tubes are not harsh at all but would like something a bit smoother. Right now I’m just running it as a preamplifier for a cheap turntable setup but will be adding a CD player and maybe take the Yggdrasil out of my headphone chain at times. My speakers are Polk LSi 15’s and using a Adcom GFA 555 at the moment but plan on getting a pair of Vidar’s at the end of the year. Not a total tube noob but don’t know these as I have a Bottlehead Crack and a Amps and Sound Kenzie but none of those tubes will work in the Freya. The CV181-Z seem to be well received here so they are on the list and one person said they were expensive but I don’t think $199 for a matched pair to be crazy but that would probably be at the midrange of what I would like to spend don’t really want to double that. So any and all recommendations are welcome.


----------



## AudioPoll

Hi guys, I registered here because it looks like this forum is the primary online forum for Schiit gear.

In regards to the Freya, does anyone else feel that it's a failure? Lack of musical engagement. Has anyone else noticed this?


----------



## Dinche

I am very sorry, but I don't think you will be taken very seriously here. With your one liner statement without any example or any reference,
and no equipment profile filled out. This makes your post look like an bad attempt at trolling.

Regards


----------



## whatcomfalls

buke9 said:


> Just got the Freya today and already liking what I hear but wouldn’t mind finding a tube that is maybe a bit warmer. The stock tubes are not harsh at all but would like something a bit smoother. Right now I’m just running it as a preamplifier for a cheap turntable setup but will be adding a CD player and maybe take the Yggdrasil out of my headphone chain at times. My speakers are Polk LSi 15’s and using a Adcom GFA 555 at the moment but plan on getting a pair of Vidar’s at the end of the year. Not a total tube noob but don’t know these as I have a Bottlehead Crack and a Amps and Sound Kenzie but none of those tubes will work in the Freya. The CV181-Z seem to be well received here so they are on the list and one person said they were expensive but I don’t think $199 for a matched pair to be crazy but that would probably be at the midrange of what I would like to spend don’t really want to double that. So any and all recommendations are welcome.





AudioPoll said:


> Hi guys, I registered here because it looks like this forum is the primary online forum for Schiit gear.
> 
> In regards to the Freya, does anyone else feel that it's a failure? Lack of musical engagement. Has anyone else noticed this?



Nope


----------



## shultzee

AudioPoll said:


> Hi guys, I registered here because it looks like this forum is the primary online forum for Schiit gear.
> 
> In regards to the Freya, does anyone else feel that it's a failure? Lack of musical engagement. Has anyone else noticed this?



Not at all.  Not sure what your comparing it to if anything but its pretty amazing considering the price point.


----------



## hornytoad

AudioPoll said:


> Hi guys, I registered here because it looks like this forum is the primary online forum for Schiit gear.
> 
> In regards to the Freya, does anyone else feel that it's a failure? Lack of musical engagement. Has anyone else noticed this?


Not in the least bit. If you are using tubes though , I would definitely check out other tubes . I never found the stock tubes to be that good .


----------



## Synergist969

AudioPoll said:


> Hi guys, I registered here because it looks like this forum is the primary online forum for Schiit gear.
> 
> In regards to the Freya, does anyone else feel that it's a failure? Lack of musical engagement. Has anyone else noticed this?


 
Having been, (and continuing to be), a rather pleased owner of multiple Schiit Audio components...including Freya, Ragnarok, Yggdrasil, as well as multiple other Schiit Audio headphone amps as well as another D/A converter, and using those components upstream of my Lipinski Sound L-707 monitors, (driven by an Aragon 4004 amp.), I will say that using the Freya as opposed to the Ragnarok as my pre-amplifier imparted a significant/audible frequency shift in my system.  The Freya's output was considerably brighter than the pre-amp output of the Ragnarok, at least in the upper mid-range if not high frequencies...substitution done with NO other changes in my system.  Certainly the soundstage, imaging, detail and so forth ALL improved very audibly, however, it IS brighter...and depending on that which you were using prior to using Freya, perhaps that is what you heard...?...OH, and the brightness remained regardless as to whether or not I was using Freya in passive, solid-state, or tube mode...

Peace/Namaste,
tim


----------



## Ghosthouse (Nov 4, 2017)

AudioPoll said:


> Hi guys, I registered here because it looks like this forum is the primary online forum for Schiit gear.
> 
> In regards to the Freya, does anyone else feel that it's a failure? Lack of musical engagement. Has anyone else noticed this?




I can imagine the Freya not delivering what YOU were looking for or expecting (though "lack of musical engagement" really doesn't communicate anything meaningful to me) but to generalize from that personal experience and label it a failure in a more universal way seems an overstatement.  I would be interested what lack of music engagement means to you and hear about another preamp that delivers in this regard.


----------



## Ghosthouse

buke9 said:


> Just got the Freya today and already liking what I hear but wouldn’t mind finding a tube that is maybe a bit warmer. The stock tubes are not harsh at all but would like something a bit smoother. Right now I’m just running it as a preamplifier for a cheap turntable setup but will be adding a CD player and maybe take the Yggdrasil out of my headphone chain at times. My speakers are Polk LSi 15’s and using a Adcom GFA 555 at the moment but plan on getting a pair of Vidar’s at the end of the year. Not a total tube noob but don’t know these as I have a Bottlehead Crack and a Amps and Sound Kenzie but none of those tubes will work in the Freya. The CV181-Z seem to be well received here so they are on the list and one person said they were expensive but I don’t think $199 for a matched pair to be crazy but that would probably be at the midrange of what I would like to spend don’t really want to double that. So any and all recommendations are welcome.



Hi Buke - I think I can relate to your comments about the Freya sound with tubes.  I can well imagine a lusher sound using Freya in tube mode.  On the other hand, since I bought it mainly for use as a passive device, this hasn't been a big deal to me.  I'm very happy with the sound quality of my system using Freya in JFET buffer mode.  The sound associated with Freya is not lean or harsh.  It seems to work well with the rest of my gear (2 different SS amps).  It seems to me the IC used from the Freya to amp has a bigger effect than changing tubes.  I have tried the stock Russian 6SN7s, a pair in the gain position of NOS Russian 6SN7s from Upscale Audio, a quad of new production EH 6SN7s, and finally a pair of NOS (early '50s) RCAs, again used in the gain position.  I hear slight changes in the over all sound (after level balancing) when in tube mode but ultimately find myself going back to JFET buffer mode.  In this mode, the overall sound is "full" to me and a little "cleaner" (but not in a sterile/lean way) than tubes.  I'm very curious about new production TungSols that get good press.  Just haven't been real motivated to spend on them (not that they are very expensive in the larger scheme).  

Maybe take a look at your ICs into and out of the Freya?  With a pair of Totem Forests, AQ Columbia XLR works well from Freya to Class D power amp.  With Silverline Prelude Pluses (a lot more treble energy) I'm using a Cardas Golden Reference from Gungnir MB DAC into the Freya and Cardas Parsec SE ICs into the HT bypass of a Hegel H200.  If using the Hegel as an integrated, the Freya is out of the loop (obviously) and I'll just run the Gungnir via XLR into the balanced input of the Hegel.  In this latter case, the AQ Columbias are a better choice with the Forests, the Cardas GR works better with the Silverlines.  Possibly more wire detail than you need; my intent is to give you an idea about some of the sound-changing-permutations that are possible.   

Hope you find a way to tune Freya to your preference.


----------



## AudioPoll

Certainly, I noticed a pretty bad stridency. I bought the Freya used, so I had hoped burn-in artifacts could be avoided, so we’ll see how it evolves. The high frequency harshness seems to be a much larger issue with some tracks than others though.

I don’t think the lack of musicality is an issue of tuning. I don’t know exactly what the issue is. In terms of detail it easily beats a Mjolnir 2 I was using a preamp. With the NOS tubes I got with the Freya it is also at least the match, and I think a little better than the M2 (Reflektor Silver Shields) in terms of soundstage and imaging. If I had to rely on my gut feelings, I’d say it has something to do with the a lack of dynamic force? I’m not sure, but I notice the lack of emotional engagement in myself when listening, something which was not the case with the M2.


----------



## cskippy

Stock tubes are pretty bad, IMO.  Get some warmer NOS tubes like Sylvania or National Union and then see how Freya sounds.  You really only need to replace the gain stage as that's the most important two (the right two) but buffer tubes can make some difference too.


----------



## hornytoad (Nov 4, 2017)

The only thing I haven’t liked about the Freya , which is not Schiit’s fault is I have have bad luck
 with tube purchases .
The stock tubes exhibited an off and on buzzing sound . The new production Tung sols sounded better imo but they have
also exhibited a off and on buzzing sound . This is not good as I can hear the buzzing on quiet passages from my listening
position about 7 feet away
I have bought some Suangung Treasure tubes recently and they sound much much better than the Tung sols or stock tubes but
. Not much buzzing but I have heard a little on start up but not from my listening position .

Right now , I look forward to maybe some lisst tubes for the Freya .

I’m using Schiit Freya , Yggy , two Vidars , Auralic Aries and Kef LS50 combo .


----------



## Synergist969

hornytoad said:


> The only thing I haven’t liked about the Freya , which is not Schiit’s fault is I have have bad lick with tube purchases .
> The stock tubes exhibited an off and on buzzing sound . The new production Tung sols sounded better imo but they have
> also exhibited a off and on buzzing sound . This is not good as I can hear the buzzing on quiet passages from my listening
> position about 7 feet away
> ...




I KNOW I read in this thread in the past that Schiit Audio was anticipating providing LISST "tubes" for Freya, but there was no estimated time/date for their release...Is there any additional/current information to that effect?


----------



## cskippy

I wonder what benefit if any the LISST tubes will provide over JFET operation.  Possibly converting single ended to balanced?


----------



## brad1138

cskippy said:


> I wonder what benefit if any the LISST tubes will provide over JFET operation.  Possibly converting single ended to balanced?



I am in the same boat, isn't a "LISST" tube completely defeating the reason we have tubes in the first place?


----------



## hornytoad

cskippy said:


> I wonder what benefit if any the LISST tubes will provide over JFET operation.  Possibly converting single ended to balanced?


Well if your tired of getting noisy tubes , this would be a solution . More gain too . 
I’m not sure how much more effort I’m going to do going down the tube rabbit hole .


----------



## Synergist969

That, as well as filling-up dust/debris hungry holes, and perhaps offer a bit more gain...depending on the design parameters...and again, perhaps just a slightly different "flavor"/sonic signature...and rather than extracting/re-inserting tubes periodically when one wishes to run J-FET rather than tubes and does not want to effect burn time on tubes with finite lifespans...


----------



## hornytoad

cskippy said:


> I wonder what benefit if any the LISST tubes will provide over JFET operation.  Possibly converting single ended to balanced?


Well if your tired of getting noisy tubes , this would be a solution . More gain too . 
I’m not sure how much more effort I’m going to do going down the tube rabbit hole .


----------



## AudioPoll

When I say the Freya is a failure, I mean that in my opinion any audio product that fails to emotionally engage the listener is a failure, regardless of price. It fails as an audio product at a fundamental level.

I left it to burn in over the weekend so I’ll see what happens with an additional 50 hours.

I was hoping the JFET would honestly provide more force/drive — it seems like just an inferior tube mode? The passive mode is just bad.


----------



## jseymour

You bought it used, so I suspect that there may be something wrong with your Freya.  I love my Freya with NOS tubes.


----------



## Ghosthouse

AudioPoll said:


> When I say the Freya is a failure, I mean that in my opinion any audio product that fails to emotionally engage the listener is a failure, regardless of price. It fails as an audio product at a fundamental level.
> 
> I left it to burn in over the weekend so I’ll see what happens with an additional 50 hours.
> 
> I was hoping the JFET would honestly provide more force/drive — it seems like just an inferior tube mode? The passive mode is just bad.



I can accept your definition of "failure" based on your individual experience, especially if you are saying, "With the same music and all the rest of my associated gear unchanged, when I put Freya in the chain...that music no longer engaged me on an emotional level."   Aren't people always talking about system "synergy"?  Maybe it is just not synergistic with the rest of your gear. 

I installed Freya in place of 6H30, tube rectified preamp.  The Freya immediately contributed a more refined and relaxed sound to the music from the system.  And that was right out of the box.  So for me, not a failure at all as it enhanced the music listening experience.


----------



## Ghosthouse (Nov 4, 2017)

Duplicate reply deleted.


----------



## cskippy

Ghosthouse said:


> I can accept your definition of "failure" based on your individual experience, especially if you are saying, "With the same music and all the rest of my associated gear unchanged, when I put Freya in the chain...that music no longer engaged me on an emotional level."   Aren't people always talking about system "synergy"?  Maybe it is just not synergistic with the rest of your gear.
> 
> I installed Freya in place of 6H30, tube rectified preamp.  The Freya immediately contributed a more refined and relaxed sound to the music from the system.  And that was right out of the box.  So for me, not a failure at all as it enhanced the music listening experience.


Exactly.  

@AudioPoll Freya isn't a failure as an audio product.  It's a great preamp with exceptional functionality for the price.  The biggest issues for most people is stock tubes sound inferior to NOS tubes and high gain of Freya can be an issue bringing out unwanted noise from tubes.  It's all a matter of system synergy and personal taste.  Some people like Beyer treble, others prefer Sennheiser smoothness.  

Freya might not be for you, and that is okay.  But that doesn't mean that it's a failure for the rest of us.


----------



## hornytoad

is it possible that the Freya is more susceptible to tube noise than other amps ? I have tried 3 quad sets of tubes and all of them have exhibited tube buzzing off and on that can be heard from the listening position of 7 feet away . And no it isn’t dimmer lights . 
I also have a Rogue Cronus Magnum II where I have two quad sets of Tung Sol Kt120’s and I have never heard a noisy tube even from a couple of feet away . 
Could be a coincidence. But three different sets on the Freya ?


----------



## jseymour

Hornytoad, I will assume that in JFET mode the noise goes away.
Tube noise has not been my experience.  My standard tube set is 6F8G (gain) and 6C8G (buffer), but I have experimented with over 2 dozen types/manufacturers of tubes including 6SN7 and 7N7.  So far I have only had one 6C8G with tube noise that could be heard inches from the speakers.


----------



## hornytoad

jseymour said:


> Hornytoad, I will assume that in JFET mode the noise goes away.
> Tube noise has not been my experience.  My standard tube set is 6F8G (gain) and 6C8G (buffer), but I have experimented with over 2 dozen types/manufacturers of tubes including 6SN7 and 7N7.  So far I have only had one 6C8G with tube noise that could be heard inches from the speakers.


Yeah no noise in Jfet mode . I can hear the buzzing 6-7 feet away on quiet piano music or similar . Of course I can’t hear the noise when I’m playing hard rock. . 
The noise comes and goes . Sometimes it’s bad , sometimes I can go through a listening session with little buzzing noise .


----------



## Ghosthouse

hornytoad said:


> is it possible that the Freya is more susceptible to tube noise than other amps ? I have tried 3 quad sets of tubes and all of them have exhibited tube buzzing off and on that can be heard from the listening position of 7 feet away . And no it isn’t dimmer lights .
> I also have a Rogue Cronus Magnum II where I have two quad sets of Tung Sol Kt120’s and I have never heard a noisy tube even from a couple of feet away .
> Could be a coincidence. But three different sets on the Freya ?



From what I've read it seems like the (13?) db gain from the Freya tube stage is a big number and could make any noise from tubes more obvious.  Couple this level of gain with high efficiency speakers and I'm guessing noise could be an issue...maybe more than with other preamps/integrated tube amps.  Admittedly, somewhat speculative on my part.  

I am NOT having noise issues buzzing or otherwise with mine in tube mode.  I DO have an odd sort of warbling that I hear when Freya is muted or in pure Passive mode (not in JFET).  In Passive mode, it is evident when nothing is playing but NOT when there is music.


----------



## jseymour

I forgot to mention that I use Herbie's Tube Dampeners http://herbiesaudiolab.net/tube.htm and they do help.


----------



## hornytoad

jseymour said:


> I forgot to mention that I use Herbie's Tube Dampeners http://herbiesaudiolab.net/tube.htm and they do help.


Well it’s worth a shot !! Thanks .


----------



## Mike Thompson

If you’re getting lots of tube noise, especially if you’ve changed around your tubes, I would look elsewhere for the problem. Could be something like a ground fault or noise in your home wiring. I have swapped out a number of tubes and have never had a problem. Tubes have a way of making these kinds of problems more obvious.


----------



## hornytoad (Nov 4, 2017)

Mike Thompson said:


> If you’re getting lots of tube noise, especially if you’ve changed around your tubes, I would look elsewhere for the problem. Could be something like a ground fault or noise in your home wiring. I have swapped out a number of tubes and have never had a problem. Tubes have a way of making these kinds of problems more obvious.


I agree ,thats why I tried  three different outlets in three different parts of my house. Problems in all of them. NO problems with the tubes in my Rogue Cronos Magnum.


----------



## Mike Thompson

AudioPoll said:


> When I say the Freya is a failure, I mean that in my opinion any audio product that fails to emotionally engage the listener is a failure, regardless of price. It fails as an audio product at a fundamental level.
> 
> I left it to burn in over the weekend so I’ll see what happens with an additional 50 hours.
> 
> I was hoping the JFET would honestly provide more force/drive — it seems like just an inferior tube mode? The passive mode is just bad.


Honestly your experience is very different from most peoples. I’m wondering what other components you are using?


----------



## hornytoad

Mike, I was having a off an on buzzing noise in my right output of the Freya .A tung Sol is located there. I tapped it and the sound went away for the
listening period. Tapped it a couple if times actually. 
So what does that tell you?


----------



## Mike Thompson

hornytoad said:


> I agree ,thats why I tries three different outlets in three different parts of my house. Problems in all of them. NO problems with the tubes in my Rogue Cronos Magnum.


I had a few problems with a different tube preamp and found the source of noise to be dimmer switches. I ended up having an electrician install a dedicated line to my listening room. Problem went away after that.


----------



## hornytoad (Nov 4, 2017)

Mike Thompson said:


> I had a few problems with a different tube preamp and found the source of noise to be dimmer switches. I ended up having an electrician install a dedicated line to my listening room. Problem went away after that.


I have a dedicated line with PS audio dectet outlets and Ps audio power conditioner.


----------



## hornytoad

Can a noisy  tube bleed into another channel ?


----------



## bmanone

AudioPoll said:


> Certainly, I noticed a pretty bad stridency. I bought the Freya used, so I had hoped burn-in artifacts could be avoided, so we’ll see how it evolves. The high frequency harshness seems to be a much larger issue with some tracks than others though.
> 
> I don’t think the lack of musicality is an issue of tuning. I don’t know exactly what the issue is. In terms of detail it easily beats a Mjolnir 2 I was using a preamp. With the NOS tubes I got with the Freya it is also at least the match, and I think a little better than the M2 (Reflektor Silver Shields) in terms of soundstage and imaging. If I had to rely on my gut feelings, I’d say it has something to do with the a lack of dynamic force? I’m not sure, but I notice the lack of emotional engagement in myself when listening, something which was not the case with the M2.



I haven't had any problems with my Freya being strident or flat lacking dynamics.  The Freya is very emotionally involving for for me.  With most of the music I regularly listen to I find myself unable to do anything other than just enjoy the music (I find it hard to multitask when listening to my system with the Freya)!  Maybe you have a problem with your system somewhere else: interconnects, speakers, or amplifier?


----------



## Dinche

hornytoad said:


> Can a noisy  tube bleed into another channel ?



It shouldn't. I have experimented with this recently, and the noise is always contained to one channel. Only speak of Freya of course.

Regards


----------



## KoshNaranek

hornytoad said:


> I have a dedicated line with PS audio dectet outlets and Ps audio power conditioner.



Have you tried it without all the PS Audio equipment?


----------



## hornytoad

KoshNaranek said:


> Have you tried it without all the PS Audio equipment?


Yes


----------



## Dinche

I recently put Sylvania 7n7's into my Freya, and I'm not looking back.

Tight, well-defined bottom end, mid-range clarity and depth, relaxed highs.
Sylvania 7N7's are also the quietest tubes I have tried so far. All other tubes exhibited the varying levels of 45-60 HZ hum on the “high-gain” Freya. 

Regards


----------



## KoshNaranek

Dinche said:


> I recently put Sylvania 7n7's into my Freya, and I'm not looking back.
> 
> Tight, well-defined bottom end, mid-range clarity and depth, relaxed highs.
> Sylvania 7N7's are also the quietest tubes I have tried so far. All other tubes exhibited the varying levels of 45-60 HZ hum on the “high-gain” Freya.
> ...


Where did you get the adapters?


----------



## Dinche

KoshNaranek said:


> Where did you get the adapters?



Ebay. Look for Suzier 7n7 to 6n7 adapters.

Regards


----------



## shultzee

Someone here previously had mentioned the tube savers from Eurotubes.  Thanks for that.  I can attest they are of high quality and fit the Freya


----------



## hornytoad

It appears the Lisst tubes for the Freya May be out by the end of the year . 

I’m interested .


----------



## Synergist969

hornytoad said:


> It appears the Lisst tubes for the Freya May be out by the end of the year .
> 
> I’m interested .


 
Freya LISST tubes...?...THAT would be great!...Out of genuine curiosity, what information source suggests that the LISST tubes may be available...?...

I am very interested as well...


----------



## hornytoad

Synergist969 said:


> Freya LISST tubes...?...THAT would be great!...Out of genuine curiosity, what information source suggests that the LISST tubes may be available...?...
> 
> I am very interested as well...


From the company itself .


----------



## Synergist969

hornytoad said:


> From the company itself .




GREAT!...    ...  and Thank You!


----------



## MrAudioGuru

The LISST tubes are available right now:

http://www.schiit.com/products/lisst-tubes


----------



## hornytoad

MrAudioGuru said:


> The LISST tubes are available right now:
> 
> http://www.schiit.com/products/lisst-tubes


Don’t think they can be used with the Freya


----------



## jseymour

On the "Specs" tab:
*Applicable to: *Schiit Lyr, Lyr 2, Mjolnir 2

These 6922 substitutes have been available for quite awhile.  But they are not for the Freya.


----------



## Mike Thompson

hornytoad said:


> It appears the Lisst tubes for the Freya May be out by the end of the year .
> 
> I’m interested .


Personally I love the sound from tubes and just don't see the point in adding a solid state tube when it already has a solid state path. That said if they do come out I'll be interested in peoples thoughts after listening to them.


----------



## sam6550a

Mike Thompson said:


> Personally I love the sound from tubes and just don't see the point in adding a solid state tube when it already has a solid state path. That said if they do come out I'll be interested in peoples thoughts after listening to them.


The Freya JFET buffer mode is the equivalent of a 6SN7 LISST unit except for the unity gain. A Freya/Saga LISST is probably not in the cards.


----------



## hornytoad

Mike Thompson said:


> Personally I love the sound from tubes and just don't see the point in adding a solid state tube when it already has a solid state path. That said if they do come out I'll be interested in peoples thoughts after listening to them.


Well I love tubes too but they can be a money pit depending on your luck . It would be nice to have an option that will not eventually turn microphonic . The stock tubes I received and Tungsol new production all had noise problems , particularly the stock tubes . 
The Shungang Treasure tubes , certainly the best of the lot have been better so we will see how they go .


----------



## Mike Thompson

sam6550a said:


> The Freya JFET buffer mode is the equivalent of a 6SN7 LISST unit except for the unity gain. A Freya/Saga LISST is probably not in the cards.


That's my thinking too. Just don't see the point in it on a Freya.


----------



## hornytoad

sam6550a said:


> The Freya JFET buffer mode is the equivalent of a 6SN7 LISST unit except for the unity gain. A Freya/Saga LISST is probably not in the cards.


The Freya LISST tubes will be available as soon as the end of the year .


----------



## sam6550a

hornytoad said:


> The Freya LISST tubes will be available as soon as the end of the year .


Where did you find this info? I do not recall Jason ever committing to a 6SN7 LISST.


----------



## hornytoad

sam6550a said:


> Where did you find this info? I do not recall Jason ever committing to a 6SN7 LISST.


I was told by Schiit they they could be ready by the end of the year so that means there will be a Freya LISST tube
Jason mentioned a year ago or so they would probably do one from what I can recall .


----------



## sam6550a

hornytoad said:


> I was told by Schiit they they could be ready by the end of the year so that means there will be a Freya LISST tube
> Jason mentioned a year ago or so they would probably do one from what I can recall .


By Jason or by???


----------



## hornytoad

sam6550a said:


> By Jason or by???


I’ll just say it wasn’t Jason .


----------



## brad1138

I noticed when I tap on the Freya, you can hear it quite loudly through the speakers, even with the volume all the way down. Is this normal?


----------



## cskippy

With tubes yes, does it also do it in Passive and JFET modes?


----------



## whatcomfalls

brad1138 said:


> I noticed when I tap on the Freya, you can hear it quite loudly through the speakers, even with the volume all the way down. Is this normal?


It is not uncommon if your tubes are microphonic and you're using the tube gain stage. It doesn't necessarily mean the tubes are bad (offensive) however. How do they sound otherwise-when you're not tapping?


----------



## TGeorgeL

brad1138 said:


> I noticed when I tap on the Freya, you can hear it quite loudly through the speakers, even with the volume all the way down. Is this normal?


Same thing with mine, with new tung sols.  Doesnt happen in passive or jfet.  I have had several tube preamps (and amps) over many years and dont recall that tapping on the chasis caused this noise—cerainly not with most recent Cary or Audible Illusions.  GReat SOUND from Freya tube section for sure.

One other thing which I am sure has been discussed is how hot my Freya gets, including the volume knob which becomes more than slightly warm.  Is this normal too?  Thanks


----------



## jseymour (Dec 5, 2017)

I strictly use tube mode.  I can hear the tubes rattle through my speakers if I knock on the Freya.  I did two things to dampen the tube noise.
1.  I use Herbie's Tube Dampeners
2.  I put a stone mortar and pestle on the top to the left of the tubes that weighs several pounds.  That did as much as the Tube Dampeners.

Other than when I knock on the Freya, there is no noise.

Not getting much heat, but my tubes are completely out of the Freya tube wells due to socket savers which bring the socket height level to the Freya top.  Then I use 6SN7 to 6C8G/6F8G adapters which raises them again.


----------



## hornytoad

jseymour said:


> I strictly use tube mode.  I can hear the tubes rattle through my speakers if I knock on the Freya.  I did two things to dampen the tube noise.
> 1.  I use Herbie's Tube Dampeners
> 2.  I put a several pound stone mortar and pestle on the top to the left of the tubes that weighs several pounds.  That did as much as the Tube Dampeners.
> 
> ...


Your stone mortar solution is smart . Something I never thought of


----------



## Jose R

I'm sure this is discussed elsewhere in other forums, but usually microphonic tube noise is caused by the resonant frequency of the chassis structure. The less mass there is in the chassis, the more likely you will get tube noise from your speakers when the chassis is tapped. Increasing mass, lowers the resonant frequency of the chassis which can reduce the noise. Using dampeners can reduce tube rattle/noise.

The Freya chassis is just a thin metallic shell.

Which is why putting a heavy weight on top of the preamp would work. It helps lower the structure's resonance frequency below an audible range.

For headphone listening, I don't think it would matter. (Unless, you are constantly tapping the preamp chassis or glass envelopes of the tubes.)


----------



## Mike Thompson

jseymour said:


> I strictly use tube mode.  I can hear the tubes rattle through my speakers if I knock on the Freya.  I did two things to dampen the tube noise.
> 1.  I use Herbie's Tube Dampeners
> 2.  I put a several pound stone mortar and pestle on the top to the left of the tubes that weighs several pounds.  That did as much as the Tube Dampeners.
> 
> ...


I hate to spook anything but my tubes have been totally quiet - even a tap does little. I'm using Northern Electric tubes on the gain side. The weight was a good idea by the way.


----------



## brad1138 (Nov 15, 2017)

Yes, it only happens in tube mode. I see I'm not alone, so I guess that's a good thing...

At the moment, I am using new production  tung sols in the buffer stage and NOS  tung sols in the gain stage

Also, they sound fine otherwise.


----------



## shultzee

I have rolled quite a few different tubes in the freya.   Some are noisy and some are dead quiet.   I now ask the tube seller's to check to make sure the tubes are not microphonic.
If they are microphonic you will get the noise described above.  I have a pair of Raytheons that are microphonic but they sound so good I just run them anyway.


----------



## Mike Thompson

shultzee said:


> I have rolled quite a few different tubes in the freya.   Some are noisy and some are dead quiet.   I now ask the tube seller's to check to make sure the tubes are not microphonic.
> If they are microphonic you will get the noise described above.  I have a pair of Raytheons that are microphonic but they sound so good I just run them anyway.


I have been using Northern Electric tubes and love them. I also have had great luck with Psvane tubes. I have used them in different products and have never been disappointed. I have a matched pair of Psvane Premium Grade 6CA7-T Mark II on order and expect them within the week.


----------



## Ghosthouse

Freya tube rollin' guys - 
With things like the Psvane or Northern Electrics, are you hearing major improvements over stock Russians or new production like Tung Sol or EH?  I'm guessing "yes"???

I'm listening strictly to JFET buffer mode having pulled the tubes.  I did try a matched pair of NOS (early '50s) RCAs from Brent Jesse along with some "better quality" NOS Russians from Upscale Audio as well as new production EH.  None of these rocked my world.  I could hear a little "change" in SQ with tubes but after a couple of sessions I found I preferred the "cleanness" of sound with JFET.  Other than the huge jump in gain, I'm not hearing anything especially "tubey" from the Freya in tube mode.  I am hearing more significant improvements changing out interconnects.  Application is Gungnir MB as input to the Freya; Merrill Audio Taranis and Totem Forest speakers downstream of the Freya.  Just wondering about the "scale" of what you are hearing with these better tubes.  Not trying to start an argument whatsoever.


----------



## buke9

Yes you are trying to start a argument. Be honest.


----------



## Mike Thompson

Ghosthouse said:


> Freya tube rollin' guys -
> With things like the Psvane or Northern Electrics, are you hearing major improvements over stock Russians or new production like Tung Sol or EH?  I'm guessing "yes"???
> 
> I'm listening strictly to JFET buffer mode having pulled the tubes.  I did try a matched pair of NOS (early '50s) RCAs from Brent Jesse along with some "better quality" NOS Russians from Upscale Audio as well as new production EH.  None of these rocked my world.  I could hear a little "change" in SQ with tubes but after a couple of sessions I found I preferred the "cleanness" of sound with JFET.  Other than the huge jump in gain, I'm not hearing anything especially "tubey" from the Freya in tube mode.  I am hearing more significant improvements changing out interconnects.  Application is Gungnir MB as input to the Freya; Merrill Audio Taranis and Totem Forest speakers downstream of the Freya.  Just wondering about the "scale" of what you are hearing with these better tubes.  Not trying to start an argument whatsoever.


Personally - yes I am. Big improvement over the stock tube and some over the NOS ones that I have tried - although to be honest I haven't tried that many. Sound is a funny thing and at the end of the day is subjective in my opinion.


----------



## buke9

You are saying all of those that listen to tubes are wrong. If I get your post.


----------



## Ghosthouse

buke9 said:


> You are saying all of those that listen to tubes are wrong. If I get your post.



Buke9 - I hope you are joking.  I really really really don't care WHAT anybody else listens to OTHER THAN it makes me wonder what I AM missing with tubes in the Freya.


----------



## bmanone

buke9 said:


> You are saying all of those that listen to tubes are wrong. If I get your post.


With my Freya I use tube output 99.9% of the time with quad matched Tung-Sol 6SN7GTBs and 0.1% of the time use JFET buffer output.  The tubes just sound better to me.


----------



## hornytoad

buke9 said:


> You are saying all of those that listen to tubes are wrong. If I get your post.





bmanone said:


> With my Freya I use tube output 99.9% of the time with quad matched Tung-Sol 6SN7GTBs and 0.1% of the time use JFET buffer output.  The tubes just sound better to me.


its the gain talking to you .


----------



## jseymour

And we like what it is saying.


----------



## hornytoad

jseymour said:


> And we like what it is saying.


Lmao .


----------



## buke9

Ghosthouse said:


> Buke9 - I hope you are joking.  I really really really don't care WHAT anybody else listens to OTHER THAN it makes me wonder what I AM missing with tubes in the Freya.


  Sorry there was a post that said that only the Jfet was good to listen to if I read it right could be wrong but that is what I saw could be wrong .


----------



## bmanone

hornytoad said:


> its the gain talking to you .


If it's gain then it certainly sounds more like music to me!  By the way in JFET mode I turn the gain up to levels comparable to the tube output level.


----------



## hornytoad

bmanone said:


> If it's gain then it certainly sounds more like music to me!  By the way in JFET mode I turn the gain up to levels comparable to the tube output level.


Well I hope you try the LISST tubes coming out for the Freya and compare them to your best tubes . I will be . 

It should be interesting . Shuangang Treasure ,Sophia , RCA Red base vs the LISST tubes !


----------



## whatcomfalls (Nov 15, 2017)

Ghosthouse said:


> Freya tube rollin' guys -
> With things like the Psvane or Northern Electrics, are you hearing major improvements over stock Russians or new production like Tung Sol or EH?  I'm guessing "yes"???
> 
> I'm listening strictly to JFET buffer mode having pulled the tubes.  I did try a matched pair of NOS (early '50s) RCAs from Brent Jesse along with some "better quality" NOS Russians from Upscale Audio as well as new production EH.  None of these rocked my world.  I could hear a little "change" in SQ with tubes but after a couple of sessions I found I preferred the "cleanness" of sound with JFET.  Other than the huge jump in gain, I'm not hearing anything especially "tubey" from the Freya in tube mode.  I am hearing more significant improvements changing out interconnects.  Application is Gungnir MB as input to the Freya; Merrill Audio Taranis and Totem Forest speakers downstream of the Freya.  Just wondering about the "scale" of what you are hearing with these better tubes.  Not trying to start an argument whatsoever.


When playing music, JFET or passive modes don't sound any cleaner than tube mode to my ears and I could easily live with either mode. I'll stick with tubes until the few remaining quiet tubes (NOS) I have are used up.


----------



## Ghosthouse

@buke9 -
Nope.  Was NOT trying to say in any absolute way that Freya in JFET mode is objectively better than Passive or Tubes.   Only that it is my preference.  

Unlike the deniers that always seem to pop up whenever the wire topic comes up, I'm not interested in trying to convince anyone else they ain't hearing what they say they are hearing.  

If tubes are working...have at it.

Hope that calms the waters!


----------



## hornytoad

Ghosthouse said:


> @buke9 -
> Nope.  Was NOT trying to say in any absolute way that Freya in JFET mode is objectively better than Passive or Tubes.   Only that it is my preference.
> 
> Unlike the deniers that always seem to pop up whenever the wire topic comes up, I'm not interested in trying to convince anyone else they ain't hearing what they say they are hearing.
> ...


You have committed blasphemy that will require medieval torture of some nature !


----------



## Ghosthouse

hornytoad said:


> You have committed blasphemy that will require medieval torture of some nature !



About tubes or wire?

What's the orthodoxy around here??

Whatever it is, guilty as charged.  I'll recant.

Just don't put me in one of them there Iron Maidens (or make me listen to 'em).


----------



## US Blues

Ghosthouse said:


> Nope.  Was NOT trying to say in any absolute way that Freya in JFET mode is objectively better than Passive or Tubes.   Only that it is my preference.
> 
> Unlike the deniers that always seem to pop up whenever the wire topic comes up, I'm not interested in trying to convince anyone else they ain't hearing what they say they are hearing.
> 
> ...



Dude, you asked a clear and legitimate question in order to solicit opinions from fellow gear heads. Nothing you did can in any way be construed as designed to initiate an argument or incite a riot. If other people took it that way ignore them, schiit like this cannot be avoided, its the internet.


----------



## Ghosthouse

US Blues said:


> Dude, you asked a clear and legitimate question in order to solicit opinions from fellow gear heads. Nothing you did can in any way be construed as designed to initiate an argument or incite a riot. If other people took it that way ignore them, schiit like this cannot be avoided, its the internet.


Thanks for the comments, US Blues (great song by the way).  I think we are all lovey dovey now.  

But you are right, don't take much of spark to get the flames roaring on this here internet.


----------



## jseymour

I just like my even order distortion.  But we all have all own tastes/ears.  But I haven't had anyone listen to my system that when I do the switch between JFET and tube who prefers JFET.  But you do need good tubes.


----------



## hornytoad

Ghosthouse said:


> About tubes or wire?
> 
> What's the orthodoxy around here??
> 
> ...





Ghosthouse said:


> Thanks for the comments, US Blues (great song by the way).  I think we are all lovey dovey now.
> 
> But you are right, don't take much of spark to get the flames roaring on this here internet.


I’m calling for a trial by fire for Ghosthouse .
He will have to listen to Vanilla Ice , Simply Red and Donny Osmond for a 24 hour time period .


----------



## Synergist969

Dear Ghosthouse:

    When I switch between solid-state/JFET and tube mode, (new production Tung Sols in the gain stage, stock Russian tubes in the buffer stage), I hear minimal/subtle frequency shift, however, I DO hear an appreciable increase in image presentation breadth and depth, particularly depth.  Since my initial set-up and sonic assessment, I have moved, and had to install my stereo system in an acoustically less optimal space, resulting in the image presentation differences between solid-state mode and tube mode to somewhat less discernible to me.  (In the original set-up, my monitors/tweeters were in excess 2 feet away from the side-walls, and about 8 feet out from the rear wall, now the tweeters are about 12-14 inches from the side walls, and only about 3 feet from the rear walls...(resulting in not allowing the monitors to do that which they do so much better with more space).

Gain differences not withstanding, (and yes, there could possibly be a host of factors affecting the psycho-acoustics of your audio system), and not knowing how your system is set up, (room, furniture, speaker placement, etc.), perhaps there is some aspect of your system that might be tweaked in order to discern some effects that others express that they hear...We audiophiles DO tend to strive to hear those "minute" details that we desire/expect(?) when we spend our hard-earned cash...    ...


----------



## Ghosthouse

Huh...I kinda liked Simply Red.  Picture Book (I think thats the title) was a strong album.  Great sonics.  

More orthodoxy that I'm violating?  No hope for some of us recidivists.  

You'd have to add something like "Starlight Vocal Band" to really make it hurt.  Vanilla Ice and Donny alone ain't quite torture enough.


----------



## Ghosthouse

@Synergist969

Thanks for taking the time to write that up S969.  A marked improvement in stage depth would definitely be reason to run tubes more of the time.  The listening area is treated with good space (5-6 feet) to the sides of the Forests.  GIK panels behind them (and a diffuser between).  More GIK panels along side walls but would be nice to be able to get the Forests further out into the room than the 2 1/2 - 3 feet they are right now.  Not enough room for that, unfortunately.  Even so, depending on recording, I do hear stage depth in JFET mode.  Would have to put tubes back in and listen critically to that aspect of the presentation.  I don't recall tubes making a big difference in that area previously but have made some other changes that might make what the tubes bring more evident now.


----------



## whatcomfalls

Ghosthouse said:


> Huh...I kinda liked Simply Red.  Picture Book (I think thats the title) was a strong album.  Great sonics.
> 
> More orthodoxy that I'm violating?  No hope for some of us recidivists.
> 
> You'd have to add something like "Starlight Vocal Band" to really make it hurt.  Vanilla Ice and Donny alone ain't quite torture enough.


Picture Book is a great album


----------



## Ghosthouse

@whatcomfalls 
hornytoad's "Simply Red" threat made me pull out Picture Book and give it a listen tonight (the first time in quite a while).

A few tracks sound a little dated but there is some great music the deeper in you go... it finishes very strong.  

I wish all my redbook CDs sounded as good as that album.


----------



## whatcomfalls

Ghosthouse said:


> @whatcomfalls
> hornytoad's "Simply Red" threat made me pull out Picture Book and give it a listen tonight (the first time in quite a while).
> 
> A few tracks sound a little dated but there is some great music the deeper in you go... it finishes very strong.
> ...


Yeah--very good


Ghosthouse said:


> @whatcomfalls
> hornytoad's "Simply Red" threat made me pull out Picture Book and give it a listen tonight (the first time in quite a while).
> 
> A few tracks sound a little dated but there is some great music the deeper in you go... it finishes very strong.
> ...


Yep-their first and best album.


----------



## LouS

Here is something which I don't understand. Generally speaking, 6SN7 variants in most preamps, depending upon applied voltages and such, will last for a very extended period of time as long as they don't go microphonic. Yet so many people want to substitute 5692's.

"Using the general audio application of 250 plate volts, a bias of 8 volts resulting in 9ma of current and plate dissipation of 2.25 Watts, we find:

5692 - runs 43 % over maximum rating – It isn’t a 10,000 hour tube when you run it this HOT!"

It's no wonder they are rare!

"6SN7GT - runs 64% of maximum – coasting and liking it
6SN7GTA/GTB - runs 45% of maximum – Hardly turned on, may outlast you."

Now I am to receive my Freya Saturday supposedly, I have a 12AX7 and a 6DJ8 based preamp, but I have been told by someone who's taste in tubes seems to mirror my own that the differences between most 6SN7 variants is far more subtle than between other tube types. Are the 5692's really THAT much better? I am a perfectionist, everything I own, other than the Freya (which I don't posses yet) and my Yggdrasil DAC have been tweaked. Just wondering if they are really worth the money, espescially as they won't last as long as less expensive alternatives, asked the guy who uses V-caps, if you know what I mean.


----------



## TheSnafu

whatcomfalls said:


> It is not uncommon if your tubes are microphonic and you're using the tube gain stage. It doesn't necessarily mean the tubes are bad (offensive) however. How do they sound otherwise-when you're not tapping?



I got my Freya today and i'm a bit disappointed as it's hyper sensitive unit (just tube mode). Not just tubes but even tapping power cord or cables gives loud clicking/thumping sound through speakers... 
It is connected to two power amps and cd-player.

I was offered to return&refund this unit but is there anything i could try out (tried rotating tubes already)? I was thinking to get new set of 6SN7's and try them first if they help.  Also sound has some kind of volume balance problem: 
when music has quiet part it plays really quiet and then gets too loud, like there is no balanced middle at all ? Vocals sound ok, a bit thin but ok, details are good.

cheers


----------



## hornytoad

TheSnafu said:


> I got my Freya today and i'm a bit disappointed as it's hyper sensitive unit (just tube mode). Not just tubes but even tapping power cord or cables gives loud clicking/thumping sound through speakers...
> It is connected to two power amps and cd-player.
> 
> I was offered to return&refund this unit but is there anything i could try out (tried rotating tubes already)? I was thinking to get new set of 6SN7's and try them first if they help.  Also sound has some kind of volume balance problem:
> ...


I would try better tubes for sure . I tossed out the stock tubes long ago (too noisy ) Also , Schiit is coming out with a Solid State tube for Freya which will give you more gain in tube  mode . My Freya in Jfet mode is dead quiet . 
I ran into some  tube vibration issues with some Shungang Treasure tubes I bought so I put some silicone damper rings on them (16 bucks total cost ) and that seems to have reduced noise . 

You could have a system mismatch with your amps . I’m using an all Schiit system with Kef ls50’s and vocals are very good , not thin at all .


----------



## TheSnafu (Dec 13, 2017)

Thanks, i don't know about miss match but here are my amps specs. haven't had any problems with previous preamps at all :

I'm gonna try with new tubes and see if it's a keeper. my local tube shop has TungSol 6SN7GTB and 6SN7GT TAD PREMIUM SELECTED ( i think i try 6SN7's not 6SL7's ?) can you recommend either ?

cheers


----------



## hornytoad

TheSnafu said:


> Thanks, i don't know about miss match but here are my amps specs. haven't had any problems with previous preamps at all :
> 
> I'm gonna try with new tubes and see if it's a keeper. my local tube shop has TungSol 6SN7GTB and 6SN7GT TAD PREMIUM SELECTED ( i think i try 6SN7's not 6SL7's ?) can you recommend either ?
> 
> cheers


The Tung Sol new production 6SN7 are much better than the stock tubes , quieter too .Get them matched , tuned for low microphonics . The Shuangang Treasure tubes are even better but more expensive and you may return the unit so I wouldnt go there yet (they also require Tube socket savers to put them in the Freya ) See if your store has some cheap silicone damper rings too . 
I know nothing of your mono amps but I see they are also tube ? 
Running a tube preamp with a tube amp can get noisy . I prefer tube preamp with a  solid state amp . 
The Schiit stock tubes really sucked imo and very noisy .


----------



## Ghosthouse (Dec 13, 2017)

TheSnafu said:


> Thanks, i don't know about miss match but here are my amps specs. haven't had any problems with previous preamps at all :
> 
> I'm gonna try with new tubes and see if it's a keeper. my local tube shop has TungSol 6SN7GTB and 6SN7GT TAD PREMIUM SELECTED ( i think i try 6SN7's not 6SL7's ?) can you recommend either ?
> 
> cheers



Hi - Sorry you aren't immediately happy with the Freya.  Mine makes NO noise when tapped - even with volume up and in tube mode.  That issue, I would suggest is due to microphonic tubes.  I'm not using the stock 6SN7s that came with my Freya either.

As far as vocal quality and the sound being thin, do give the unit some time to burn in.  Give it some playing time.  It won't sound it's best right out of the box.  I'd expect things to mellow out with a few dozen hours of use.  Better tubes will definitely help SQ as well as noise issue.

Don't know what to say about the wide dynamic range you are experiencing.  That's usually a good thing and will (obviously) depend on the recording being played back.  As far as a potential impedance mismatch.  Check the Freya output impedance spec for JFET and Tube mode.  The rule of thumb is that the input impedance of the amp should be 10x and some people say 20x this value.
So for the 330K ohm input impedance on your amps, you want the pre-amp output impedance to be no more than 33K ohm and preferably not more than 16.5K ohms.  I don't recall the Freya's values exactly but I think given that 330K value for your amp, you are okay on impedance matching.  Good luck.


----------



## TheSnafu

Yes, i agree what you said about burn in and new tubes. I'd like to very much keep this, it's pretty cool device.
Previous pre amp (that i still have) is Copland CTA-301 mkII so Freya is up to against tough comparison 
I just wanted to move away from 6922 to something else.

I'm listening now tubed out and this sounds ok, i guess it got better already. I think that sound balance i mentioned might improve during burn in.
Non tube output has pretty good sound and i can later adjust over all outcome with power amps tubes.

I'll report later how tube rolling went

cheers


----------



## whatcomfalls

TheSnafu said:


> I got my Freya today and i'm a bit disappointed as it's hyper sensitive unit (just tube mode). Not just tubes but even tapping power cord or cables gives loud clicking/thumping sound through speakers...
> It is connected to two power amps and cd-player.
> 
> I was offered to return&refund this unit but is there anything i could try out (tried rotating tubes already)? I was thinking to get new set of 6SN7's and try them first if they help.  Also sound has some kind of volume balance problem:
> ...


I suggest you send it back. And I don't think any of your problems are due to the quality of the tubes.


----------



## Ghosthouse

TheSnafu said:


> Yes, i agree what you said about burn in and new tubes. I'd like to very much keep this, it's pretty cool device.
> Previous pre amp (that i still have) is Copland CTA-301 mkII so Freya is up to against tough comparison
> I just wanted to move away from 6922 to something else.
> 
> ...



Hope the sound continues to get better and better and new tubes eliminate the microphony.  
I've been listening in tube mode the last few weeks because I need the gain for a low power amp I am running BUT most of the time with some higher power amps, i was using JFET mode and REALLY liked it. 

Best regards and good luck.


----------



## Mike Thompson

hornytoad said:


> Well I hope you try the LISST tubes coming out for the Freya and compare them to your best tubes . I will be .
> 
> It should be interesting . Shuangang Treasure ,Sophia , RCA Red base vs the LISST tubes !


Has it been confirmed that Schiit is coming out with a LISST tube for the Freya? I'm not quite seeing the point of it but will watch with interest to see what people's impressions are.


----------



## purehifi192

Mike Thompson said:


> Has it been confirmed that Schiit is coming out with a LISST tube for the Freya? I'm not quite seeing the point of it but will watch with interest to see what people's impressions are.


Yes, Jason confirmed on his thread, and was pushing to get it out before end of year.


----------



## Mike Thompson

purehifi192 said:


> Yes, Jason confirmed on his thread, and was pushing to get it out before end of year.


I must have missed that - thanks for the info.


----------



## hornytoad

Mike Thompson said:


> Has it been confirmed that Schiit is coming out with a LISST tube for the Freya? I'm not quite seeing the point of it but will watch with interest to see what people's impressions are.


I confirmed it with Schiit personnel.  They told me they hoped to have them out by the end of this year . I asked about a month ago. 
It appears more likely early next year.


----------



## LouS (Dec 14, 2017)

Hi TheSnafu,

As it is tube only, it just about has to be a tube issue. You ought to be able to tap on the tops of the tubes with your finger, and I do mean tap or you'll end up with a burned finger tip. If they are not microphonic you'll hear a low level thump, if they are, it'll be a loud thump. You ought to be able to get Schiit to send you some better tubes, by better I only mean non-microphonic.

If you really want it to sound it's best, Ken Rads are the ticket. I have some Shuguang CV181Z Treasures which are still burning in which sound like they will be as good, and perhaps better than the Ken Rads, but you'll have to get some socket savers to elevate the tubes out of the case as the base is too big to fit into the holes in the case. It's a good idea to get some anyway as it will lessen the heat in the case regardless of what tubes you are using. I don't know, but some say that they prefer the Treasures to the newer Psvane Treasure II's. Tung-sols are nice plane Jane tubes, but I ordered a matched quad from Upscale Audio and the second amplifier in 2 of the tubes failed the Grid Leakage test on my tube tester, so I am not sure that they are great tubes. Obviously there are always possible production run issues, but you might have thought that someone would have caught that.

One review I read claimed that Brimars were a hidden secret, but he preferred the Treasures with, I believe, 24 hours on them. At 24 hours they were not close to being the equal of the Ken Rads, so I don't think that I would spend any money on Brimars. The Treasures are initially expensive, but if the projected 50,000 hours is close to accurate they are a bargain. I was listening to the Treasures today, 1 pair with a pair of Ken Rads as buffers, and unlike RCA or Sylvanias, listening fatigue was not an issue. That to me is the issue. Mind you, I have a Schiit Yggdrasil feeding it.

My LS-15 is eating tubes, I haven't gotten around to checking voltages, so I don't want to lose another quad of Bugle Boys A-B'ing it, but it does smoke my 12AX7 based preamp, and Telefunkens are some nice tubes.

If you want to be super cautious you could send it back and have them check it out, an expensive, but perhaps good idea to give you piece of mind. That said, this is a tough little preamp, and with the right associated gear, it is amazingly listenable. I have B&W 801M series 2's with modified crossovers. Even though they are bass reflex, I find them easily tolerable with the gear mentioned. Everything is a compromise, at least for those without tens of thousands to throw at our equipment.  Just remember, my experience is finite, and my opinion is worth every penny you paid for it!


----------



## TheSnafu (Dec 14, 2017)

^ latest:
Good news: new set of TungSol 6SN7GTB's cured that tapping problem almost completely
Bad news: when tube stage is selected, there is still very audible buzz that can be heard 3½ meters away

50/50 if i should send it back

btw: should there be a glow from inside the amp (not tubes), some kind of fuse type part between two right hand tubes 

cheers

_edit: _it's going back to seller and they will evaluate how bad this buzz is and then i hope we can close this deal. To be honest i'm a bit pissed off it went this way ( new tubes + UPS = +200€ ) just to try this out but this is the problem when not having stores of your choice around. I very, very, much doubt there was issues with compatibility but something was wrong with device. Mark from Electromod has been very helpful with this case, cheers if you read this.


----------



## LouS

Yes, the lights are supposed to be there. I think I would send it back for them to take a look at it at this point. Unless I had Carey money, or some other high end preamp that uses 6SN7's I wouldn't think of returning my Freya, except for a repair issue. I do love Amperex/Philips 6DJ8's, I have a ton of Siemens tubes as well, not to mention bunches of odd balls, but none of them begin to compare to the Freya with Ken-Rads, and now I have enough hours on the Treasures to include them, and when you consider their alleged 50K hours life, they are a bargain!

Lou


----------



## hornytoad

TheSnafu said:


> ^ latest:
> Good news: new set of TungSol 6SN7GTB's cured that tapping problem almost completely
> Bad news: when tube stage is selected, there is still very audible buzz that can be heard 3½ meters away
> 
> ...


A buzzing sound can be created by tube vibration . Tube dampers might help .


----------



## Mike Thompson

LouS said:


> Hi TheSnafu,
> 
> As it is tube only, it just about has to be a tube issue. You ought to be able to tap on the tops of the tubes with your finger, and I do mean tap or you'll end up with a burned finger tip. If they are not microphonic you'll hear a low level thump, if they are, it'll be a loud thump. You ought to be able to get Schiit to send you some better tubes, by better I only mean non-microphonic.
> 
> ...


Nice writeup. I have the Shuguang Treasures and like them very much. Another tube I've been happy with is the Northern Electric 6SN7. I am currently running a quad of them and am very happy with the sound. I have not heard the Ken Rads - perhaps next.


----------



## Mike Thompson

LouS said:


> Yes, the lights are supposed to be there. I think I would send it back for them to take a look at it at this point. Unless I had Carey money, or some other high end preamp that uses 6SN7's I wouldn't think of returning my Freya, except for a repair issue. I do love Amperex/Philips 6DJ8's, I have a ton of Siemens tubes as well, not to mention bunches of odd balls, but none of them begin to compare to the Freya with Ken-Rads, and now I have enough hours on the Treasures to include them, and when you consider their alleged 50K hours life, they are a bargain!
> 
> Lou


Completely agree with you. The Freya sounds and looks great.


----------



## LouS

Mike Thompson said:


> Nice writeup. I have the Shuguang Treasures and like them very much. Another tube I've been happy with is the Northern Electric 6SN7. I am currently running a quad of them and am very happy with the sound. I have not heard the Ken Rads - perhaps next.



Thanks, I wonder, were Northern Electric manufactures or did they sell tubes with their ink and packaging made by other manufactures? My knowledge of such things is usually pretty limited.


----------



## LouS

Mike Thompson said:


> Completely agree with you. The Freya sounds and looks great.



I have heard some say they prefer the Gungnir to the Yggdrasil, I'd love to hear one one of these days!


----------



## hornytoad

LouS said:


> I have heard some say they prefer the Gungnir to the Yggdrasil, I'd love to hear one one of these days!


I had the Gumby and Yggy in my House for a year and listened extensively . The Gumby may be the best dac I’ve heard for 1200 but the Yggy bests it in resolution and overall audio quality .


----------



## LouS

Thanks, I figured it had to sound better, but as 1 reviewer was torn I was curious. Lots of people like Vandersteen speakers, to me they sound like great speakers with a towel over the tweeter. Tried fixing that on a 2CE Signature by bypassing some crappy caps. It turned it into an ear bleeder, had to pull the bypass and sold them... Love the Yggdrasil and the Freya now that I have found good tubes. With Sylvanias and RCAs I was ready to return it. Now it's my last preamp. My Parasound Halo, Coda 05r, AR LS-15, etc, are soon to be gone.


----------



## Mike Thompson

LouS said:


> Thanks, I wonder, were Northern Electric manufactures or did they sell tubes with their ink and packaging made by other manufactures? My knowledge of such things is usually pretty limited.


They are a Canadian Manufacturer. 
From the website: "Northern Electric had a rich history of producing high quality audio products and vacuum tubes in Canada. We are now re-introducing this classic brand and bringing to you the highest quality tubes possible."
I believe they are building them themselves. I bought mine from The Tube Store  http://www.thetubestore.com/Tubes/6SN7-Tube-Types/Northern-Electric-6SN7


----------



## LouS

Awesome, do they sound as good as the Treasures? I'd love to see tubes take back the audio market, I know it's never going to happen, but it's great that folks are making good sounding tubes these days. I'll have to look into getting some!


----------



## LouS (Dec 14, 2017)

Those look like Treasures, are they made in China? I stand corrected, they look like Psvane Treasure II'S, which I believe are made by the factory that makes the Treasures.


----------



## Mike Thompson

LouS said:


> Those look like Treasures, are they made in China? I stand corrected, they look like Psvane Treasure II'S, which I believe are made by the factory that makes the Treasures.


They are actually somewhat smaller than the Treasures. You can use them in the Freya without tube savers. There's no indication on the packaging that they are made in China. They simply say Northern Electric, Canada on the packaging so not sure. I very much like the sound of them though.


----------



## jseymour

There is no tube manufacturing in the Americas.  To the best of my knowledge the only tube manufacturers are in Eastern Europe, Russia and China.


----------



## Mike Thompson

jseymour said:


> There is no tube manufacturing in the Americas.  To the best of my knowledge the only tube manufacturers are in Eastern Europe, Russia and China.


I think you're right  http://www.thetubestore.com/Tubes/Northern-Electric


----------



## LouS (Dec 14, 2017)

I saw the name and Canada on the front of the box, but since it didn't say made in Canada I was curious about the actual nation of manufacture. Anyway, I suppose that it ultimately doesn't matter, I just prefer to buy from nations friendly to freedom within their own boarders. So I am guessing that they compair favorably to the Treasures sonicly speaking as you are using them. Do they also lay claim to a 50K hours lifetime?


----------



## LouS

jseymour said:


> There is no tube manufacturing in the Americas.  To the best of my knowledge the only tube manufacturers are in Eastern Europe, Russia and China.



That's what I thought. Their words looked like they were phrased to make it SOUND like they are made in Canada when they were actually not. Either way though, that there are great sounding tubes being made currently is good news!


----------



## cskippy

hornytoad said:


> A buzzing sound can be created by tube vibration . Tube dampers might help .


While this is true, I think his problem is Freya simply has too much gain in his system.  Return it.


----------



## jseymour (Dec 14, 2017)

My system is PC -> Eitr -> Yggy -> Freya (tube mode) -> 2 Vidars -> Spatial M3 Triode Master.  I have 6F8Gs in gain and 6C8Gs in buffer.  Both of these tube types tend to be more microphonic than 6SN7s.  I did have intermittent noise issues, but all was solved when I put a large weight (granite mortar & pestle) on the Freya and Herbie's tube dampeners on the tubes.  The weight makes more of a difference.  Picture is pre dampeners.


----------



## LouS

cskippy said:


> While this is true, I think his problem is Freya simply has too much gain in his system.  Return it.




How so? You control the gain sent to your amp with the volume knob. Unity gain, no gain, or uber gain x volts/current out require x volts or current in, you merely adjust the volume level between sources.


----------



## cskippy

What I'm saying is compared to passive and JFET modes, Tube mode has significantly more gain.  I too have audible noise with tube mode.  Higher efficiency speakers or high power amps will make the noise more obvious, as always IMO, YMMV.


----------



## LouS

cskippy said:


> What I'm saying is compared to passive and JFET modes, Tube mode has significantly more gain.  I too have audible noise with tube mode.  Higher efficiency speakers or high power amps will make the noise more obvious, as always IMO, YMMV.



No, that's not opinion, it's fact, I wasn't thinking about high efficiency speakers.


----------



## TheSnafu

I think technically Freya fits in my system, i have been using these power amps with quite a few different pre amps and haven't had issues with gain. 
There is a possibility that it might have gotten harsh UPS-ride since remote had little damage also tubes were bad, more than one maybe three. 
Hard to imagine damaged remote and unusable tubes would have gone through Schiit  QC... (no pun intended... they are asking for it with that name).

Microphonics/tapping sensitivity were cured with a new set of tubes and without this buzz it would have been a keeper..
This tube stage sound isn't tube/50Hz hum but electric buzz that doesn't sound healthy. Also this sound wasn't affected by volume. It was like bad floor noise.

Freya goes now back to seller and they evaluate this situation, i'm more than happy to accept another one but they need to check it first... twice.

cheers


----------



## TheSnafu

That gain difference between stages was easy to hear but still, i don't think that was the problem. Speakers are 89db Duntech Opals so they aren't super sensitive either.

cheers


----------



## hornytoad

I agree 



jseymour said:


> My system is PC -> Eitr -> Yggy -> Freya (tube mode) -> 2 Vidars -> Spatial M3 Triode Master.  I have 6F8Gs in gain and 6C8Gs in buffer.  Both of these tube types tend to be more microphonic than 6SN7s.  I did have intermittent noise issues, but all was solved when I put a large weight (granite mortar & pestle) on the Freya and Herbie's tube dampeners on the tubes.  The weight makes more of a difference.  Picture is pre dampeners.


----------



## eschell27

I know this exactly the appropriate to place to do this... but i'm haven't gotten any different tubes to try in Freya in quite a while and still have a few on my list... so thought i would ask if anyone has any they are willing to get rid of...
Looking for pairs of:

Raytheon 6SN7GT VT-231
Sylvania 6SN7GT 3 Hole Bad Boys (had a pair and one crapped out on me, they were my favorite but have been unable to find an legit pairs at reasonable prices)
RCA Red Base 5692
Sylvania 6SN7W
Tung Sol 6SN7 (any variant besides the uber expensive black oval round plates, unless you wanna sell the super cheap! haha)
Ken Rad VT-231 Staggered Plate

Please PM me! Thank you in advance!


----------



## Pandahead

Ahhhh, now it's tuned to C=256



The longer you live the more Schiit you have to tinker with!


----------



## TheSnafu

Freyas volume adjustment, what's the manufacturer and model of the "128-step relay-switched stepped attenuator" ?
Is it available somewhere or house made ? My Freya went back so i didn't open it and one of my pre amps is going to get new balance and volume pots so i thought, why not if possible...


----------



## whatcomfalls

TheSnafu said:


> Freyas volume adjustment, what's the manufacturer and model of the "128-step relay-switched stepped attenuator" ?
> Is it available somewhere or house made ? My Freya went back so i didn't open it and one of my pre amps is going to get new balance and volume pots so i thought, why not if possible...


Why not contact Schiit and ask them?


----------



## TheSnafu

Well, my adventures with Freya are over (for now) and device was returned. Seller agreed that transformer hum was way above tolerance. 
But from other peoples experiences it looks like this hum is a bit like feature rather than fault, i don't know. Shame that it went this way, Freya 
itself is pretty cool looking preamp and it would have been fun to roll those 6SN7's. I have been rolling 6922/E88CC's fifteen years now so 
it would have been a change...

Can't say anything about sound (because device wasn't 100%) but tube stage with new tubes (stock tubes were horrible) sounded decent 
compared to solid state options. Attenuator is softcore hi-fi porn. I truly don't get it why this must ship with those (imo) piss poor stock tubes ?
People need to buy new ones anyway, so shipping with decent tubes would be cheaper to buyer after all (i'm pretty sure Schiit gets tubes cheaper 
than regular buyer).

Maybe Schiit should also consider putting more effort (and price) to remove this hum problem completely and they would have true winner in their hands, now it's more like "ok".
This is selling $700 so upping it to $8-900 would give better quality tubes/parts and dead silent noise floor = i'd buy it right away.

But after all the hassle with amp and specially ups, this was positive experience of Schiit products and their customer services.

Cheers


----------



## LouS (Jan 2, 2018)

TheSnafu said:


> Well, my adventures with Freya are over (for now) and device was returned. Seller agreed that transformer hum was way above tolerance.
> But from other peoples experiences it looks like this hum is a bit like feature rather than fault, i don't know. Shame that it went this way, Freya
> itself is pretty cool looking preamp and it would have been fun to roll those 6SN7's. I have been rolling 6922/E88CC's fifteen years now so
> it would have been a change...
> ...



Okay, necessary update: 

Ignore my statements on tubes here. I just realized that the Freya, like the Yggdrasil, needs to run for hours and hours before it sounds decent. The first tubes I tried were Sylvanias, and I thought they absolutely sucked. The Treasures had to burn in (which incidentally burned in the Freya a bit more), so they sounded better than the rest. Yesterday I decided to retry the Sylvanias, and the difference was not subtle, they sounded night and day better, so I now know that all my opinions were colored by the Freya not being ready for primetime. 

I have a new Freya and have zero hum problems. If you get another one, my limited experience tells me that pairing Shuguang Treasure CV181Z's with Ken-Rad tubes gives you the live sound of the Ken-Rads, with the soundstage of the Treasures, Psvane Treasure II's may be even a hair better, but buy the tubes through US or Canadian suppliers as I have heard bad things about fakes from China. Shuguang makes several others which are reportedly good too, but their inexpensive tubes suck, got one that came broken, well packed, but I think the glass is too thin, and the base broke installing a second one out of the original quad, I have NEVER had a 6SN7, or any other octal base break when installing them before!

The sound of instruments through the Ken-Rads is an I am there sound, everything is just right, not so much the Treasures, the Treasures give you a very nice sound stage, not so much the Ken-Rads. The combination is pretty amazing. Remember, different preamps react differently with diffrent tubes, so in other brands of preamps Sylvanias and RCAs may sound better, I am ONLY commenting on the Freya.


----------



## Ghosthouse

TheSnafu said:


> Well, my adventures with Freya are over (for now) and device was returned. Seller agreed that transformer hum was way above tolerance.
> But from other peoples experiences it looks like this hum is a bit like feature rather than fault, i don't know. Shame that it went this way, Freya
> itself is pretty cool looking preamp and it would have been fun to roll those 6SN7's. I have been rolling 6922/E88CC's fifteen years now so
> it would have been a change...
> ...



Hey Snafu - 
With the exception of some possible tube noise, the Freya CAN be dead quiet.  Brent Jesse (and others) sells good quality NOS tubes and will test them for noise before shipping.  I did have some weird warbling noise in passive and in mute modes.  Left channel only.  Turns out it was the iFi iPower ! I was using to power my Aries Auralic Mini streamer.  It's on a shelf below the Freya and there are nearby unshielded interconnects from Freya to subwoofers.  Took the iFi iPower out, reinstalled the Aries Mini stock wall wart and things are now completely silent in all modes.  Point being, I don't think you should have to live with ANY noise from Freya.  Good luck.


----------



## LouS

Ghosthouse said:


> Hey Snafu -
> With the exception of some possible tube noise, the Freya CAN be dead quiet.  Brent Jesse (and others) sells good quality NOS tubes and will test them for noise before shipping.  I did have some weird warbling noise in passive and in mute modes.  Left channel only.  Turns out it was the iFi iPower ! I was using to power my Aries Auralic Mini streamer.  It's on a shelf below the Freya and there are nearby unshielded interconnects from Freya to subwoofers.  Took the iFi iPower out, reinstalled the Aries Mini stock wall wart and things are now completely silent in all modes.  Point being, I don't think you should have to live with ANY noise from Freya.  Good luck.



Yeah, I wonder if there's something else going on. Mine kicks my AR LS15's ass in most departments, the AR is better laid out, I prefer it's remote and such, but the little Freya with.good tubes and a Yggdrasil feeding it, with the right tubes, is just plain awesome sounding. My B&W 801M V2s with mods are not super efficient, but beyond a sloppy base reflex woofer system, only an equally good acoustic suspension or open baffle would interest me, and I don't have space for open baffle speakers. Anyway, I have had zero noise issues. I really can't imagine needing anything more than my current system, Quad 57's sound better, but I sold mine because I couldn't live with the low volume.


----------



## TheSnafu

Well, as stated above, my Freya wasn't 100% ok. So what i have said doesn't reflect it's the full potential and my experiences with it were of course very limited.
Full props to Mark / Electromod UK taking care of this best possible way and i won't hesitate to buy Schiit products later. 

cheers


----------



## LouS

Didn't realize you were in the UK. None the less, unless you have another preamp with 2 pairs of 6SN7's in the audio path, I would seriously recommend trying another Freya. I have not only the Audio Research, but a Coda 05r, a Parasound H5, and a No sound 12AX7 preamp I picked up at an Amazon liquidation sale because 2 "bulbs" were broken, for the price I had to try it, and aside from construction, with Telefunken 12AX7's it sounds pretty awesome, but with the tube complement I mentioned, all those other preamps are collecting dust. The 05r and the LS15 have had extensive capacitor upgrades or bypasses as well. Then again, I know the job once bitten twice shy adage, so I certainly understand if you are hesitant to try one again.


----------



## TheSnafu

Actually, in Finland. So posting it from UK over here and back is 150€ risk... 
Overall experience communicating with Schiit & Electromod left me very confident to buy another Schiit unit at some point.

My current pre amp is Copland CTA-301 mkII and it's waiting new parts from Copland (balance and volume pots) so i'm not in hurry. 
It just would have been interesting to try out and roll  6NS7's after all those 6922's.

cheers


----------



## LouS

Well, my 6DJ8 tube rolling always need up with a quad set of Amperex tubes in the AR, I had to bypass the caps in the audio path with Mundorf Silver Golds for them to really shine though.


----------



## hornytoad

Well I have had some weird buzzing tube noise in all three quad sets of tubes I have tried in the Freya:the stock tubes, Tung Sols and Shuangang Treasure's that require socket savers to fit in the Freya. 

So I said to myself that there is simply no way that I have bad tubes in all three.  

The Freya is quite light for a tube amp so I started to think it was a vibration issue and indeed it was. 

I added these underneath the Freya's small feet and not a single buzzing noise during an hour long listening session:https://www.amazon.com/gp/slredirec...4584181&id=5477252808439491&widgetName=sp_atf

So if you think you have a microphonic tube, it could very well be a vibration issue.


----------



## Ghosthouse

hornytoad said:


> Well I have had some weird buzzing tube noise in all three quad sets of tubes I have tried in the Freya:the stock tubes, Tung Sols and Shuangang Treasure's that require socket savers to fit in the Freya.
> 
> So I said to myself that there is simply no way that I have bad tubes in all three.
> 
> ...



Glad you found a solution.  I definitely believe vibration management can have a positive impact on sound quality.  
FWIW - I have my Freya on DIY roller blocks (furniture caster cups with metal ball bearings).  
The cups are on a bamboo plinth and the plinth in turn rests on sorbothane footers on the equipment console.


----------



## hornytoad

Ghosthouse said:


> Glad you found a solution.  I definitely believe vibration management can have a positive impact on sound quality.
> FWIW - I have my Freya on DIY roller blocks (furniture caster cups with metal ball bearings).
> The cups are on a bamboo plinth and the plinth in turn rests on sorbothane footers on the equipment console.


I think one of the issues withe Freya is its weight. It is light and I think it picks up more vibration than many other tube amps. 

It does sound damn good .


----------



## Ghosthouse

I think your comment about the Freya's weight (or lack thereof) and susceptibility to vibration is helpful.  I wasn't aware of a specific vibration related problem with mine but I try to do equipment vibration drain to wood plinth and vibration isolation under the plinth for all my pieces.  If you are interested, you might want to experiment further with a wood plinth on top of those Project footers and something like Vibrapod cones or DIY roller blocks between Freya and the plinth.  Necessary pieces can be found on Amazon for around what you spent on those footers.  I haven't experimented with mass loading, though someone here reported a heavy grinding mortar placed on Freya helped improve sound quality.


----------



## TheSnafu

if you want good stone isolators: garden walkway stones cut to right size , easy and cheap
or 
if you are handy, get a glass plate of right size and make concrete mold so that glass forms bottom of the concrete block (which you turn upside down and glass becomes the top surface), 2 inches is heavy enough easily to damp all vibrations.

or if you want stone cut in right size, ask local funeral home. i got red granite stones under my speakers, ~40kg each and they cost like $100 together.

cheers


----------



## Synergist969

Speaking of resonance control related to tube use and so forth...

  I was hoping to completely circumvent THAT issue, (among others), by purchasing a quad of those LISST's for Freya/(6SN7 equivalent, Linear, Integrated, Solid-State Tubes), that at least a couple of Head-Fi'ers have reported in the the last month or two that they had on good authority that Schiit Audio was attempting to work on offering, possibly prior to the end of this year...?...

  Any newer, more definitive information regarding these little cylindrical solutions?


----------



## hornytoad

Synergist969 said:


> Speaking of resonance control related to tube use and so forth...
> 
> I was hoping to completely circumvent THAT issue, (among others), by purchasing a quad of those LISST's for Freya/(6SN7 equivalent, Linear, Integrated, Solid-State Tubes), that at least a couple of Head-Fi'ers have reported in the the last month or two that they had on good authority that Schiit Audio was attempting to work on offering, possibly prior to the end of this year...?...
> 
> Any newer, more definitive information regarding these little cylindrical solutions?


The LISST tubes for Freya are happening for sure . I was hoping they would be out by year end but that is not happening .
Hopefully January .


----------



## socklosk (Jan 2, 2018)

Everybody seems to emphasize good tubes for the gain stage, and this is true, but I found that the tubes in the output stage are not negligible. I listen to classical, with a lot of vocals, and found that having 6SN7GT - VT-231 JAN RCA in the output stage adds noticeably to vocals (these tubes have been praises for quality vocals.) I have 6SN7GT - VT-231 JAN Sylvania in the gain stage and since most classical is in the mids and highs, they make a great combo for my classical listening.

Call me nuts, but I'm seriously considering getting another Freya as a backup since it performance far exceeds my expectations, I have a lot of 6SN7 tubes for backup, and I'm almost 63 and feel that having a backup should allow me to continue to enjoy the sound that I'm now perfectly pleased with for the rest of my life. For $699 their performance cannot be touched even with much of the more costly preamp, none that I have found using the 6SN7 tubes.

I also have a GUNGNIR MULTIBIT DAC, a Wyred 4 Sound ST-500 amp, and modified Maggie 1.7 speakers. 

I should also mention that I'm a retired research psychologist and I strongly believe that my listening to classical music is great psychological therapy.


----------



## LouS

I absolutely agree with you about the buffer tubes are also important. I am not sure that I have enough hours on the Freya to judge specific tubes yet, but I know there is a difference with different tubes in the buffer stage. I was thinking about trying their amps, but my amp is probably going to sound better, so your idea about buying a second preamp is appealing to me. I would like to upgrade some capacitors and would feel better about it if I had a stock preamp to compare it too.


----------



## Ghosthouse

socklosk said:


> Everybody seems to emphasize good tubes for the gain stage, and this is true, but I found that the tubes in the output stage are not negligible. I listen to classical, with a lot of vocals, and found that having 6SN7GT - VT-231 JAN RCA in the output stage adds noticeably to vocals (these tubes have been praises for quality vocals.) I have 6SN7GT - VT-231 JAN Sylvania in the gain stage and since most classical is in the mids and highs, they make a great combo for my classical listening.
> 
> Call me nuts, but I'm seriously considering getting another Freya as a backup since it performance far exceeds my expectations, I have a lot of 6SN7 tubes for backup, and I'm almost 63 and feel that having a backup should allow me to continue to enjoy the sound that I'm now perfectly pleased with for the rest of my life. For $699 their performance cannot be touched even with much of the more costly preamp, none that I have found using the 6SN7 tubes.
> 
> ...



I'm running a Freya with Gungnir MB myself.  I hear what you are saying about getting a spare!  BTW - have done a little tube swapping but more with interconnects.  DAC to Freya and Freya to amp.  Changes with wire are even more noticeable to me than changes with tubes.   Hope you get to enjoy your music for many more years.


----------



## LouS

Synergist969 said:


> Now that Freya's are beginning to come into possession of more/many(?) of us "Schiit-O-Philes"...
> 
> Of those of you who have owned or at least heard both and Freya and Ragnarok, (as a pre-amp), in your audio systems, would you please compare/contrast the sound qualities of both Freya and Ragnarok...?...frequency curve/timbre, image size/breadth/depth, image specificity, etc...as I currently use my "Rag" as my stereo system pre-amp, but am VERY curious/interested in the Freya as a dedicated pre-amp, so as to not have to power-up another amplifier within my pre-amp, (60 watts/channel...),  when I am listen to my speakers, (driven by an Aragon 4004 amp)...
> 
> ...



If the schematic was public I am sure a modification could be made. You could trace out the circuit and make a schematic, but that's a pain in the rump. This is a definite design flaw. The result of either one person's opinion, or group think is what you have, it's pretty impressive, but for a few dollars more it could be much nicer, as you have noted.


----------



## winders

socklosk said:


> For $699 their performance cannot be touched even with much of the more costly preamp, none that I have found using the 6SN7 tubes.



The Freya is a great value. But, this preamp crushes the Freya:

http://www.dsachsconsulting.com/custom line stage.html

I had one made for my system and the difference is massive. I sold my Freya days after getting it. It's not cheap but is not all that expensive for what it is....and it uses 6SN7 tubes.


----------



## hornytoad

winders said:


> The Freya is a great value. But, this preamp crushes the Freya:
> 
> http://www.dsachsconsulting.com/custom line stage.html
> 
> I had one made for my system and the difference is massive. I sold my Freya days after getting it. It's not cheap but is not all that expensive for what it is....and it uses 6SN7 tubes.


at 2,500 or so with xlr , I would hope so.


----------



## winders

hornytoad said:


> at 2,500 or so with xlr , I would hope so.



I was responding to this:

"...[Freya's] performance cannot be touched *even with much of the more costly preamp, none that I have found using the 6SN7 tubes*."

Note the bolded text.


----------



## LouS

winders said:


> The Freya is a great value. But, this preamp crushes the Freya:
> 
> http://www.dsachsconsulting.com/custom line stage.html
> 
> I had one made for my system and the difference is massive. I sold my Freya days after getting it. It's not cheap but is not all that expensive for what it is....and it uses 6SN7 tubes.



If you bought it new, then as I just found out, you have no idea what a Freya sounds like. I don't know if they used soft recovery diodes in the Freya, but from the detail I hear, I am pretty sure that they did. Anyway, shoving the caps that he is using into that preamp SHOULD ensure that it sounds better. I am most curious about the hours of use on the Freya though, like the Yggdrasil it needs a lot of burn in time.


----------



## LouS

Ghosthouse said:


> I'm running a Freya with Gungnir MB myself.  I hear what you are saying about getting a spare!  BTW - have done a little tube swapping but more with interconnects.  DAC to Freya and Freya to amp.  Changes with wire are even more noticeable to me than changes with tubes.   Hope you get to enjoy your music for many more years.



I found a tremendous difference between S/E and balanced due to the amplification stage in the S/E side, but stopped there. I can't imagine it getting much better now unless the cables are faulty. That said, I don't know how many times I have had to admit to being wrong about what does and what doesn't make a difference in audio.


----------



## winders

LouS said:


> If you bought it new, then as I just found out, you have no idea what a Freya sounds like. I don't know if they used soft recovery diodes in the Freya, but from the detail I hear, I am pretty sure that they did. Anyway, shoving the caps that he is using into that preamp SHOULD ensure that it sounds better. I am most curious about the hours of use on the Freya though, like the Yggdrasil it needs a lot of burn in time.



I listen to a lot of music and had my Freya for 7 months. I rolled quite a few nice tube sets as well. So I think I have a really good idea as to what Freya sounds like. I recently sold the Yggdrasil I had for 10 months. Freya does not need anywhere near the burn-in time Yggdrasil did. Maybe 50 hours.....


----------



## LouS

winders said:


> I listen to a lot of music and had my Freya for 7 months. I rolled quite a few nice tube sets as well. So I think I have a really good idea as to what Freya sounds like. I recently sold the Yggdrasil I had for 10 months. Freya does not need anywhere near the burn-in time Yggdrasil did. Maybe 50 hours.....



"I soldmy Freya days after getting it."

I wasn't positive if you sold the Freya days after getting the Freya or the other preamp. 50 hours wasn't sufficient for mine, I am not sure exactly when it turned the corner, but it had a good deal more than 50 hours on it. I'd want at least a week on it before I'd critically listen to it though. The 14 days on the Yggdrasil isn't really sufficient either, though you do get a pretty good idea of what it's capable of at that point. If I wanted to replant the Freya into a new case I suspect we could get it sounding as good as your preamp by swapping out a few caps, but it would cost quite a bit to get it there. I'd have to hear your preamp in my system to even consider spending over 2K for the preamp though. That said, 2.5K for a No holds barred preamp is a bargain! I just think with a couple of less extreme mods I can get mine pretty close, close enough. There is a point of diminishing returns, but we know about opinions.


----------



## Ghosthouse

LouS said:


> I found a tremendous difference between S/E and balanced due to the amplification stage in the S/E side, but stopped there. I can't imagine it getting much better now unless the cables are faulty. That said, I don't know how many times I have had to admit to being wrong about what does and what doesn't make a difference in audio.



I was a wire skeptic until someone visited with a different speaker cable than what I was running at the time.  Heard a distinct and unexpected difference and it wasn't because the incumbent JPS Labs cables were broken.  I don't read your comment as adamantly rejecting the possibility of different wire producing "improved" (or just "different"?) sound so it's not a right or wrong sort of thing, just a reflection of personal experience so far.  Just like tube "rolling", however, switching out wire...whether speaker cable or ICs - can be a slippery slope; an endless pursuit with the complication that what works for Party #1 in their System A won't necessarily work in Party #2's System B.  Ya has ta try 'em to know.  FWIW - I don't ever see myself spending much north of $500 for wire (thank goodness for the used market) but right now, pretty content with Cardas Golden Reference XLR from Gungnir to Freya and Cardas Parsec SE from Freya to First Watt F7; Cardas Parsec cables from F7 to Silverline Preludes Pluses.  Consider wire as another "controllable" variable in the formula if you are ever inclined to experiment.


----------



## winders

LouS said:


> If I wanted to replant the Freya into a new case I suspect we could get it sounding as good as your preamp by swapping out a few caps, but it would cost quite a bit to get it there.



No, it wouldn't be that simple......


----------



## LouS

winders said:


> No, it wouldn't be that simple......



Actually it would be just that simple. I sent my Stasis II to Jon Solderberg to get a set of matched output transistors and larger power supply capacitors installed. All I had done to it was swapped out improved parts, and while his output transistors were newer designs with tighter tolerances and the caps were larger, he had made those mods before. When he was done and checked it out he said he had never heard a Stasis amp that sounded as good as mine, and it was all about the components that I used. This guy is using a basic design and maxing out the quality of the parts used, so it IS that simple.


----------



## LouS

Ghosthouse said:


> I was a wire skeptic until someone visited with a different speaker cable than what I was running at the time.  Heard a distinct and unexpected difference and it wasn't because the incumbent JPS Labs cables were broken.  I don't read your comment as adamantly rejecting the possibility of different wire producing "improved" (or just "different"?) sound so it's not a right or wrong sort of thing, just a reflection of personal experience so far.  Just like tube "rolling", however, switching out wire...whether speaker cable or ICs - can be a slippery slope; an endless pursuit with the complication that what works for Party #1 in their System A won't necessarily work in Party #2's System B.  Ya has ta try 'em to know.  FWIW - I don't ever see myself spending much north of $500 for wire (thank goodness for the used market) but right now, pretty content with Cardas Golden Reference XLR from Gungnir to Freya and Cardas Parsec SE from Freya to First Watt F7; Cardas Parsec cables from F7 to Silverline Preludes Pluses.  Consider wire as another "controllable" variable in the formula if you are ever inclined to experiment.




No, you misunderstood me, or should I say that I didn't make myself clear! I KNOW wires and cables matter, but they matter less with more stable systems. My Coda 05r has Black Gate and Teflon caps throughout, it's very transparent for a SS preamp, but cables don't make a tremendous difference with it. Other gear they do. I have Mogami balanced cables between the Yggdrasil and the Freya, not just crap cables. I'm just a bit surprised that you have noticed that dramatic a difference as mine sounds so good and I just saw the name Mogami, knew they were quality, and bought them. My system does seem a little bright though and that could be the cause. I thought it was the Yggdrasil because detail usually puts you on the edge of brightness. Then again, new cables can also do it, maybe once these burn in they'll be okay, assuming that they are the source of my problem.


----------



## socklosk

winders said:


> The Freya is a great value. But, this preamp crushes the Freya:
> 
> http://www.dsachsconsulting.com/custom line stage.html
> 
> I had one made for my system and the difference is massive. I sold my Freya days after getting it. It's not cheap but is not all that expensive for what it is....and it uses 6SN7 tubes.


It sounds like a great preamp, but having just a two-year warranty worries me a bit. Plus I live in an apartment and cannot take advantage of the increased sound quality at a higher volume. But thanks for sharing! I bookmarked it and will give it consider it


----------



## LouS (Jan 2, 2018)

Ghosthouse, back in the day I listened to Stereophile's guru, Julian Hursh <sp?>, but he swore that cables didn't matter. I went to a hi fi store on St. Johns Newfoundland and they talked me into trying some $200 Monster speaker cables promising to take them back if I didn't hear a difference. I think Monster may have been the only high end cables back then. I really wanted to take them back because $200 was one hell of a lot for speaker cables back then, but I ended up keeping them...


----------



## winders

LouS said:


> Actually it would be just that simple. I sent my Stasis II to Jon Solderberg to get a set of matched output transistors and larger power supply capacitors installed. All I had done to it was swapped out improved parts, and while his output transistors were newer designs with tighter tolerances and the caps were larger, he had made those mods before. When he was done and checked it out he said he had never heard a Stasis amp that sounded as good as mine, and it was all about the components that I used. This guy is using a basic design and maxing out the quality of the parts used, so it IS that simple.



Dude, there is more to a preamp design than caps and transistors.......but you go right ahead thinking that's all there is to it.


----------



## Ghosthouse

socklosk said:


> It sounds like a great preamp, but having just a two-year warranty worries me a bit. Plus I live in an apartment and cannot take advantage of the increased sound quality at a higher volume. But thanks for sharing! I bookmarked it and will give it consider it



Hello Socklosk - I double checked.  Freya has a 5 year limited warranty as per the below (from the Schiit Audio website):

5-Year Warranty and Easy Return Policy
Freya is covered by a 5-year limited warranty that covers parts and labor. One exception: the tubes. Those we cover for 3 months. And if you don’t like your Freya, you can send it back for a refund, minus 5% restocking fee, within 15 days of receiving it.


----------



## winders

Ghosthouse said:


> Hello Socklosk - I double checked.  Freya has a 5 year limited warranty as per the below (from the Schiit Audio website):
> 
> 5-Year Warranty and Easy Return Policy
> Freya is covered by a 5-year limited warranty that covers parts and labor. One exception: the tubes. Those we cover for 3 months. And if you don’t like your Freya, you can send it back for a refund, minus 5% restocking fee, within 15 days of receiving it.



He was referring to the preamp I have, not Freya.


----------



## Ghosthouse

winders said:


> He was referring to the preamp I have, not Freya.



Ah! Okay then.  Thanks for the clarification.


----------



## LouS (Jan 2, 2018)

winders said:


> Dude, there is more to a preamp design than caps and transistors.......but you go right ahead thinking that's all there is to it.



Nelson Pass is Nelson Pass, Stan Warren, the S in PS Audio told me that Pass designed the cascode amplifier circuit which most base their amplifiers on. Jim Strickland working with another fellow innovated the TNT technology, but those people are few and far between. Most use cascode amplifiers because Pass never patented it, so it's public domain. On tube amplification you would be amazed at how many use the old "RCA High-Fidelity (Vacuum Tube) Amplifier Circuits" publication as the basis for "their" designs. That's why with very few exceptions these designs are not patented, they can't be because they have been in the public domain for decades, and often tens of decades. The Yggdrasil has software which I strongly suspect is protected, but most DAC manufactures use A P.D. algorithm, some will tinker with it, others not, but only an extreme minority start from scratch as I understand Moffat did with the Yggdrasil. So I  seriously doubt the design is even remotely revolutionary much less patented. He took an existing design, and tweaked it, but unlike Parasound, for example, he is selling direct, has pretty much if not only word of mouth advertising, so he doesn't need to retail at 7 times cost. It makes a 10 or 15 thousand dollar preamp affordable. Yet as I said, what really differentiates him is that he is using some of the best of the best parts. You could find a good basic preamp and do about the same. The core, what makes it possible, is a sound platform, meaning a sound design to start from. So yes, I get that it sounds great, but I maintain 2 points, he didn't reinvent the preamplifier, and you can come very close with far less expensive parts. I used to use V-caps exclusively, then I used them and or Mundorf Supreme Silver Golds, espescially when using them in series. Now for a fraction of the cost I use Audyn True Copper caps more often than not. They aren't V-Caps, or Mundorfs, but they cost about 1/5th the price, and are darned good sounding. If I used Delunds, my cost would exponentially increase, the output would most certainly improve, but for most people the cost couldn't be justified. The improvements would be minor while the costs would be tremendous. So, as I initially argued, the Freya is a very good design, improve the components and if you could really tell a difference in a double blind test, at best they would be minor differences, and I wouldn't bet on which one wouild ultimately sound better, I strongly suspect that if a real difference could be heard, that it would be subjective, that there would not be a clear winner given a large sample of listeners, audiophiles all. If you believe that a circuit is more than a sound design and the sun of it's parts, for the most part, then feel free, but those who work on those circuits know better.


----------



## winders

LouS said:


> Blah, blah, blah....



Just as an example, did Jason use an Aikido buffer circuit in his design for Freya? The Don Sachs Model 2 Preamp does. I am not saying the Aikido buffer is any better or worse, but it certainly is different. All preamps are not the same and changing a few caps and transistors is not going to make Freya sound like a Don Sachs Model 2. Freya can be a passive preamp or an active solid state preamp. The Don Sachs is dual mono and has a lot of point to point wiring using Deuland wire. Freya is all circuit boards. The designs of these two preamp are significantly different.

DACs and amps have the same kinds of differences. You are making assumptions that just done work in the real world.

Have fun in your world.....


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## whatcomfalls (Jan 2, 2018)

socklosk said:


> For $699 their performance cannot be touched even with much of the more costly preamp, none that I have found using the 6SN7 tubes.


What are some of those more costly preamps you've listened to?


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## LouS

winders said:


> Just as an example, did Jason use an Aikido buffer circuit in his design for Freya? The Don Sachs Model 2 Preamp does. I am not saying the Aikido buffer is any better or worse, but it certainly is different.
> 
> Have fun in your world.....



Yes, blah, blah, blah indeed! Thanks for proving my point! You should really study logic. As I said, off the shelf. As I said, not identical, but generic and good. Blah, blah, blah beyond proving my point for me, thanks!

Your world is the one grounded in "feelings" not facts, hence it is most certainly your own.


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## socklosk

whatcomfalls said:


> What are some of those more costly preamps you've listened to?


I've used a Blue Circle and a good passive preamp and the cheap $699 Freya with good tubes blew them both away. I'm being forced to listen at a lower volume level because my neighbor complains, but I do not mind too much and I listen for many hours per day so there's no fatigue.


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## JohnBal

LouS said:


> Ghosthouse, back in the day I listened to Stereophile's guru, Julian Hursh <sp?>, but he swore that cables didn't matter. I went to a hi fi store on St. Johns Newfoundland and they talked me into trying some $200 Monster speaker cables promising to take them back if I didn't hear a difference. I think Monster may have been the only high end cables back then. I really wanted to take them back because $200 was one hell of a lot for speaker cables back then, but I ended up keeping them...


Julian Hirsch wrote for Stereo Review. Never a guru for Stereophile. He was all about measured performance. I'm not sure if he ever listened critically to anything.


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## LouS

JohnBal said:


> Julian Hirsch wrote for Stereo Review. Never a guru for Stereophile. He was all about measured performance. I'm not sure if he ever listened critically to anything.



Good catch, I nearly couldn't remember his name either it was so long ago. I initially paid attention to him, but after that experience I never again paid any heed to what he said. Thanks for jarring my memory!


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## JohnBal

LouS said:


> Good catch, I nearly couldn't remember his name either it was so long ago. I initially paid attention to him, but after that experience I never again paid any heed to what he said. Thanks for jarring my memory!


When I was on my teens I read Stereo Review. That's all  I knew. It wasn't until I discovered Stereophile on the mid 80's that I realized that stereo equipment was supposed to sound different. This is when they would actually give negative reviews. Then I began to actually LISTEN to different equipment and wow. My eyes opened. I wonder what he would think of the Freya. A tube section that measures well. Hmmm.


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## LouS

JohnBal said:


> When I was on my teens I read Stereo Review. That's all  I knew. It wasn't until I discovered Stereophile on the mid 80's that I realized that stereo equipment was supposed to sound different. This is when they would actually give negative reviews. Then I began to actually LISTEN to different equipment and wow. My eyes opened. I wonder what he would think of the Freya. A tube section that measures well. Hmmm.



For me it was The Absolute Sound. Audio was better than Stereo Review, but not by much. The stores I went to didn't have Stereophile, that or they were sold out when I was there.


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## jseymour

Today I did an inexpensive tweak by putting _Vibrapod Isolation Feet - Model 2_ under the Freya's factory feet.  I have a pair of Tung-Sol 6F8Gs in the gain position and if I walked towards my stereo rack you could hear them vibrate.  Not horrible, but audible.  This is with a heavy mortar & pestle on top and Herbie's Tube Dampeners.  The Vibrapods did not completely eliminate the noise, but cut it at least in half.  For $24.00 with Amazon Prime, it is a bargain:  https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003P4SOVU/ref=od_aui_detailpages00?ie=UTF8&psc=1.

Another treat came today.  A pair of NOS Tung-Sol 7N7s. All of my Sylvania 7N7s are completely non-microphonic, so I hoping the same for this T-S pair.


----------



## whatcomfalls

socklosk said:


> I've used a Blue Circle and a good passive preamp and the cheap $699 Freya with good tubes blew them both away. I'm being forced to listen at a lower volume level because my neighbor complains, but I do not mind too much and I listen for many hours per day so there's no fatigue.


I'm also very impressed with the Freya. Having never owned a preamp before, it's good to know it compares favorably with other good preamps.


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## LouS

whatcomfalls said:


> I'm also very impressed with the Freya. Having never owned a preamp before, it's good to know it compares favorably with other good preamps.



No matter what you have, there will always be something that does better in one aspect or another, all designs are a compromise, even all out assaults usually have minor issues of some sort. That said, Freya plays well against many major players. winder's preamp is in a different league because the manufacturer didn't skimp on parts. The Freya didn't use all the best parts available, but then neither do most because it would drive costs through the roof, and only a few could afford them. For me it boils down to listening fatigue. If a component is sufficently flawed so that it becomes tedious to me, I replace it. The Freya isn't in the very top tier, I'd suggest It's bang for the buck fantastic. The critical thing for me though is that I have a very hard time listening to it critically, with the Yggdrasil, which is what convinced me to try the Freya, the music sounds so good that I am drawn into it, I simply enjoy it so that I forget that I am trying to be critical when listening, and for me, that's what listening should be about. If you are not there, it could be that you are more into live music than I, or that you have other components holding you back. It's possible that the Freya is an issue for you, but I suspect it likely that other components are the issue. If you want the ultimate, IME, you are in for a lot of tail chasing and a lot of money down the drain, but if you just want to enjoy the music, you can get there. I have a friend who owns an 8K system which uses open baffle speakers, which I would love to use if I had room for them, but his DAC is baked into the system, thus I am pretty sure the Yggdrasil is better. My B&W 801M Series II's with modified crossovers are not going to sound as good as well executed open baffle speakers. He loves his system though his DAC isn't a Yggdrasil, so what if X is better? The point is, do you get listening fatigue, or do you just love to listen to your system? Screw the rest of it!


----------



## whatcomfalls

LouS said:


> It's possible that the Freya is an issue for you, but I suspect it likely that other components are the issue.


I have no issues with the Freya. I have no desire to replace it.


----------



## LouS

whatcomfalls said:


> I have no issues with the Freya. I have no desire to replace it.



I didn't think you were, I was just speaking of my experience in general terms. YMMV.


----------



## whatcomfalls

LouS said:


> I didn't think you were, I was just speaking of my experience in general terms. YMMV.


Got it, and thanks.


----------



## hornytoad

I like the Freya quite a but and the only squabble I have is it seems overly sensitive to vibration  allowing a little more tube noise in than I would like. 

In Jfet mode it is dead silent.


----------



## Ghosthouse

LouS said:


> No matter what you have, there will always be something that does better in one aspect or another,



Couldn't agree more.  In fact, Rule #1 for music lovers with a 2 channel addiction should be:  "You can *always* spend MORE!"  I'm not one of the uber-rich for whom money is not an issue and discretionary funds that can be applied to audio without causing a major domestic conflict are limited...there ARE other priorities.  So, the challenge is to put together a good sounding, high value system on a budget.  A system that (as LouS points out) is non-fatiguing and engaging and that supports music listening as a pleasurable experience and not an analytical exercise.  Rule #2, (at least to my mind) becomes:  "You don't HAVE to spend MORE!"  I'm not out to recreate a live performance in my listening area.  I totally disavow that as a reasonable goal for assembling a great system - though for many in this "hobby" that is the "gold standard".  I want a system that facilities the enjoyment of recorded music from multiple sources.  There is SO much variation in the quality of recordings, how can anyone say, "My system nails piano timbre" and use that (which some do) as proof their system has arrived?  Piano might sound accurate and "real" on one recording and not so much from another; a Bosendorfer might sound like a Baldwin on yet another.  Hyperbole maybe, but trying to make a point.  I think the "art" in the hobby is spending the least amount to get great sound.  Any fool can throw money away...and I've certainly been that fool.  I believe one of the truths in home audio that doesn't get much discussion is, "You don't have to spend a lot to get great sound".  I think the Freya is an excellent illustration of this.


----------



## LouS

Ghosthouse said:


> "You don't have to spend a lot to get great sound".  I think the Freya is an excellent illustration of this.



With one stipulation, for some the Freya IS a lot. I have preamps that should sell used for at least double the price of the Freya, but at one time a Sansui AU D9, who's predecessors were better sounding, was an incredible amount of money, and I was buying it overseas at a military rate, likely hundreds less than in the US... I still have 2 Sansui tuners though. Hell, I read Julian Hirsh's review of the Carved TX-11, allegedly in the mold of the McIntosh MR77. So I saved, sold my Sansui TS U9 tuner to afford it, and when it arrived it didn't pull in stations as well as the Sansui, nor did it sound very good. Hirsh would never lie, so I even sent it back to Carved to have it fixed, and was told that it was working perfectly. That was the last time I listened to that a-hole about ANYTHING!


----------



## LouS

hornytoad said:


> I like the Freya quite a but and the only squabble I have is it seems overly sensitive to vibration  allowing a little more tube noise in than I would like.
> 
> In Jfet mode it is dead silent.



Other than one microphonic tube so far I haven't had that issue, then again my standoffs/socket savers have not arrived so I have the top off of it so I can use the Shuguang Treasures.


----------



## hornytoad

LouS said:


> Other than one microphonic tube so far I haven't had that issue, then again my standoffs/socket savers have not arrived so I have the top off of it so I can use the Shuguang Treasures.


When you put the case back on. let me know if you get some tube vibration. I have had some in all 3 quad sets of tubes I have tried  , including the Treasures.


----------



## Ghosthouse

LouS said:


> With one stipulation, for some the Freya IS a lot.



I appreciate that and for those folks: consider Saga or forego separates altogether and get a good used solid state integrated.  My point is simply you don't have to spend in the 10s of thousands or more to enjoy audio.  It is not exclusively "a rich man's game" as I once saw written over on A'gon.  Bargains are out there.  Component matching is critical.  

I am NOT saying an uber-bucks system can't deliver an incredible sounding and powerful musical experience commensurate with $ paid.  No hater-envy for the folks that can afford such.  I am a believer in the law of diminishing returns however.   I also suspect folks without much time in the audio journey and who buy an uber-bucks system because they heard it at a dealer and can, might not really know what they have.  Mistakes along the way have been an education that helps me appreciate what I have now and provides a context for understanding potential gains from additional $ that could be spent.


----------



## LouS

hornytoad said:


> When you put the case back on. let me know if you get some tube vibration. I have had some in all 3 quad sets of tubes I have tried  , including the Treasures.



Will do!


----------



## LouS

Ghosthouse said:


> I appreciate that and for those folks: consider Saga or forego separates altogether and get a good used solid state integrated.  My point is simply you don't have to spend in the 10s of thousands or more to enjoy audio.  It is not exclusively "a rich man's game" as I once saw written over on A'gon.  Bargains are out there.  Component matching is critical.
> 
> I am NOT saying an uber-bucks system can't deliver an incredible sounding and powerful musical experience commensurate with $ paid.  No hater-envy for the folks that can afford such.  I am a believer in the law of diminishing returns however.   I also suspect folks without much time in the audio journey and who buy an uber-bucks system because they heard it at a dealer and can, might not really know what they have.  Mistakes along the way have been an education that helps me appreciate what I have now and provides a context for understanding potential gains from additional $ that could be spent.



I got your point, but for younger folks just starting out us calling the Freya affordable might sound a bit much, that's all I was trying to say in a long winded way.


----------



## LouS

hornytoad said:


> When you put the case back on. let me know if you get some tube vibration. I have had some in all 3 quad sets of tubes I have tried  , including the Treasures.



If you tap on the tubes do they hear it as a thump in your speakers? If so It's a tube issue. These help;

https://m.ebay.com/itm/NEW-23mm-Tub...7-6SL7-GZ34-10pcs-for-tube-amps-/162270534877

Just make sure they are silicon o'rings or they won't be able to take the heat. They'll help dampen some of the resonance.


----------



## hornytoad

LouS said:


> If you tap on the tubes do they hear it as a thump in your speakers? If so It's a tube issue. These help;
> 
> https://m.ebay.com/itm/NEW-23mm-Tub...7-6SL7-GZ34-10pcs-for-tube-amps-/162270534877
> 
> Just make sure they are silicon o'rings or they won't be able to take the heat. They'll help dampen some of the resonance.


Thanks . What I hear is an occasional buzzing noise


----------



## LouS

hornytoad said:


> When you put the case back on. let me know if you get some tube vibration. I have had some in all 3 quad sets of tubes I have tried  , including the Treasures.



I wouldn't recommend taking the cover off. I do repair work, used to do radio and tv studio repairs, but now industry pays better. I don't mind telling you they intentionally made it a pain in the a$$ to work on this thing. I was considering doing a couple of capacitor bypasses, but I decided it sounded fine as it is, mostly because modding it would be a real pain. If it didn't sound so good I'd do it anyway, but doing it when it sounds this good is more about curiosity than needing it. Getting the leds into their holes is really tedious, and I can envision someone bending the volume pot enough to break it, so unless your used to doing tedious crap like that just leave it. I wanted to try the Treasures without the socket savers, impatience on my part, and curiosity as to what's under the hood. Anyway, it can be done, but I don't recommend it.

I am not hearing vibration, but my speakers extend out beyond the preamp too, so that may play into it too. I did figure out a mod that makes old Sony DVD players like the DVP S9000ES sound awesome if anyone still uses a CDP. I have hundreds of CDs to put on my drive so I still use it sometimes, plus it does SACD, lots of my SACDs have not been ripped and I'm not geared up for it. Furthermore the 9000 like the Yggdrasil is bit perfect I believe. Anyway, happy listening! Oh, I got some crap Tung Sols from Upscale Audio. Paid for a matched quad, but 2 had bad grid leakage. They said they had never seen it before asked about the model of my tester, then crickets. Went back on them through PayPal and posted a video of my tester on a good tube, then one of the bad ones they sent, still nothing. BBB is next. They were packed well, so it must be a factory defect. No other 6SN7's have had that issue, just new Tung Sols. If Upscale got bad ones there are likely more out there too, I would ask a seller to check espescially for that, AND they need to let it sit and warm up, they look good with just a quick check. I'm not much impressed with them anyway, but if you must buy some, buyer beware at least 2 bad ones left the factory, I'd be pretty surprised if more didn't hit the market!


----------



## LouS

alltunedup said:


> Greetings...First post..woop woop!.....Have a Freya coming next week and if some of you are looking to unload some good extra tubes would ya hit me up with a pm



Let it cool for at least 2 days, if not more, before listening to it or you may think it sucks.


----------



## KoshNaranek

LouS said:


> I wouldn't recommend taking the cover off. I do repair work, used to do radio and tv studio repairs, but now industry pays better. I don't mind telling you they intentionally made it a pain in the a$$ to work on this thing. I was considering doing a couple of capacitor bypasses, but I decided it sounded fine as it is, mostly because modding it would be a real pain. If it didn't sound so good I'd do it anyway, but doing it when it sounds this good is more about curiosity than needing it. Getting the leds into their holes is really tedious, and I can envision someone bending the volume pot enough to break it, so unless your used to doing tedious crap like that just leave it. I wanted to try the Treasures without the socket savers, impatience on my part, and curiosity as to what's under the hood. Anyway, it can be done, but I don't recommend it.
> 
> I am not hearing vibration, but my speakers extend out beyond the preamp too, so that may play into it too. I did figure out a mod that makes old Sony DVD players like the DVP S9000ES sound awesome if anyone still uses a CDP. I have hundreds of CDs to put on my drive so I still use it sometimes, plus it does SACD, lots of my SACDs have not been ripped and I'm not geared up for it. Furthermore the 9000 like the Yggdrasil is bit perfect I believe. Anyway, happy listening! Oh, I got some **** Tung Sols from Upscale Audio. Paid for a matched quad, but 2 had bad grid leakage. They said they had never seen it before asked about the model of my tester, then crickets. Went back on them through PayPal and posted a video of my tester on a good tube, then one of the bad ones they sent, still nothing. BBB is next. They were packed well, so it must be a factory defect. No other 6SN7's have had that issue, just new Tung Sols. If Upscale got bad ones there are likely more out there too, I would ask a seller to check espescially for that, AND they need to let it sit and warm up, they look good with just a quick check. I'm not much impressed with them anyway, but if you must buy some, buyer beware at least 2 bad ones left the factory, I'd be pretty surprised if more didn't hit the market!



I have a friend who had the same issue with Upscale Audio. one out of 4 Tung Sols were bad. No response from those guys. I gave him a matched pair that I had gotten from Tube Depot. Never had a problem with Tube Depot.


----------



## Synergist969

Ghosthouse said:


> I was a wire skeptic until someone visited with a different speaker cable than what I was running at the time.  Heard a distinct and unexpected difference and it wasn't because the incumbent JPS Labs cables were broken.  I don't read your comment as adamantly rejecting the possibility of different wire producing "improved" (or just "different"?) sound so it's not a right or wrong sort of thing, just a reflection of personal experience so far.  Just like tube "rolling", however, switching out wire...whether speaker cable or ICs - can be a slippery slope; an endless pursuit with the complication that what works for Party #1 in their System A won't necessarily work in Party #2's System B.  Ya has ta try 'em to know.  FWIW - I don't ever see myself spending much north of $500 for wire (thank goodness for the used market) but right now, pretty content with Cardas Golden Reference XLR from Gungnir to Freya and Cardas Parsec SE from Freya to First Watt F7; Cardas Parsec cables from F7 to Silverline Preludes Pluses.  Consider wire as another "controllable" variable in the formula if you are ever inclined to experiment.



  Dear Ghosthouse:

    I noticed your post on wire...and having recently purchased a pair of Audience Audio, Clairaudient 1+1 V2+ speakers to use in a "secondary" sound system, I am hoping to obtain your experience regarding Cardas wire in general and Cardas Parsec wire in particular...

    I am driving the 1+1's with the amplifier output stage of my Schiit Audio Ragnarok, (having purchased the Freya to replace it in my primary system, both system's of which are fed by the Yggdrasil).  Now, the 1+1's are extraordinarily clean/transparent and naturally detailed with amazing imaging...However, due to their relatively limited bass extension, tend to be a bit bright for MY tastes, (I prefer a mid-hall presentation), and wish to "tame" them just a touch without significantly adversely affecting that transparent quality for which they were designed...

    I am currently connecting my 1+1's to the Ragnarok with a 10 ft. pair of the "Blue Jeans Cable's", Belden 5000 series, 10 gauge, 5T00UP, twisted pair speaker wire, (Blue Jeans Cables being a cable manufacture suggested as a good "bang-for-the-buck" by this Head-Fi community).  I have on order a 15 ft. pair of Audience Audio, OHNO lll speaker wires, hoping that they will do the trick, (as I was informed that those speaker cables were designed specifically to work with the 1+1's...).

HOWEVER, should I find the OHNO lll's to NOT be to my taste, I have ALSO been informed that the Cardas cables, the "Cross" design line, to be designed to be a bit warmer in general, (de-emphasis in the highs and/or emphasis in the lower-mids and below...?) .  I was interested in particular about the "Parsec" line, and wondering what you thought about it.  I have heard that it IS a bit warmer, but I might be giving up some detail/soundstage, etc., not to mention significantly more $$$'s...(a pair of 15ft. pair of Parsec speaker cables would set me back about $1,100.00!...lol...).  I read that in your system you use the Parsec wire only(?) as an interconnect, (XLR/balanced configuration), however, I am still curious as to YOUR observations/experience with the Cardas cables that you use...

Rest assured, I am NOT attempting to generate a "Which cable manufacturer is best?", or "Do cables really matter?" kind of war...lol...

Peace/Namaste,
T.A.K.


----------



## LouS

KoshNaranek said:


> I have a friend who had the same issue with Upscale Audio. one out of 4 Tung Sols were bad. No response from those guys. I gave him a matched pair that I had gotten from Tube Depot. Never had a problem with Tube Depot.



That's sad, I can't imagine that New Sensor, the company that owns the Tung Sol name, wouldn't replace the tubes. As for Tube Depot, I bought the cheaper Shuguang 6SN7s from them, someone suggested that they sound as good as more expensive Shuguang tubes for a fraction of the price. One of them came broken, Tube Depot wa s getting ready to express ship a new one, but then I had a base break off while trying to insert another tube, the center guide pin broke also cracking the glass tip. So as I have NEVER had that happen before I just decided that they were just VERY cheaply made, and it wasn't worth replacing either tube, so I contacted them, thanked them for offering to replace the one tube, but told them that I wasn't really interested in wasting time or further money with those tubes. I just thought it was awesome of them backing their product like that. I wouldn't recommend the cheap Shuguang tubes though, both the plastic bases and the glass are too thin and they just are not rugged enough for normal use, IMO.


----------



## Ghosthouse (Jan 6, 2018)

Synergist969 said:


> Dear Ghosthouse:
> 
> I noticed your post on wire...and having recently purchased a pair of Audience Audio, Clairaudient 1+1 V2+ speakers to use in a "secondary" sound system, I am hoping to obtain your experience regarding Cardas wire in general and Cardas Parsec wire in particular...
> 
> ...





Synergist969 said:


> I am hoping to obtain your experience regarding Cardas wire in general and Cardas Parsec wire in particular...



Hi Namaste -
I don't want to divert this Freya-dedicated thread to a cable discussion and incur the ire of the moderators so I will try to be brief.  I have found Freya sensitive (a good thing) to interconnect changes...more so than with the tubes I have tried.  If you are in the US, get in touch with The Cable Company.  They have a lending library (interconnects, speaker cable, digital cable) and for 10% of the cost of the cables you can audition several in your home for a few days.  If you don't buy, that money will be available to you as a store credit applicable on future purchases.  If you do buy, the deposit applies to the purchase price of your cable.  One difficulty might be the 15 foot length you mention.  I don't know if they have that length in their library.

Here is a link to their website:  https://www.thecableco.com
Here is a phone number:  1-800-328-9973

As it turns out I tried the Audience Ohno III speaker cable at the same time that I auditioned the Cardas Parsec wire.  The Ohno wire did not have the fullness of "body" I was looking for (mid-range a little recessed?) I didn't like it much.  The Parsec cable provided a fuller sound with good detail yet not harsh (something I'd been fighting in my system).  I was impressed with the image stability and "control" the Parsec's seemed to provide.  Someone might argue the Ohno III is more linear (neutral?) than the Parsec.  I preferred music with the Parsec.  I wish the Ohno sounded better to me as it was less expensive.

Between Gungnir MB DAC and Freya I'm using a Cardas Golden Reference XLR cable.  Depending on the amp (e.g., Hegel H200), this cable can be a bit TOO warm so I'll change it out for an Audioquest Columbia.

Between Freya and amps...
With a First Watt F7 amp, there is only a single ended input to connect the pre-amp so I use a previously purchased Cardas Parsec IC between Freya and First Watt.
With another amp (Merrill Audio Taranis) connection to the pre-amp is via XLR.  With this amp I am using a Harmonic Technology Pro Silway II and Golden Reference between DAC and Freya.  I am experimenting with the Parsec RCA between DAC and Freya vs the Golden Reference XLR between these pieces.

I enjoy the sound of music from the system with the Cardas wire in place.  Speakers are Totem Forests or Silverline Prelude Pluse speakers (change them out periodically).  I also have a run of Cardas 300B Microtwin between Heed Quasar phono preamp and Freya.

Previously I'd used Morrow Audio SP4 speaker wire and various Morrow Audio ICs (MA3 & MA4).  These might be good on systems that are dark or "slow sounding".  I've also used Clearday Double Shotgun speaker cable.  You might consider trying these.  Paul Laudati is a good guy to do business with and has a (30 day?) return policy.  I greatly preferred this wire over the Morrow Audio cable on the Totem Forests. The Cleardays are what the Parsec cable replaced, mainly to deal with excessive brightness from the Silverline Prelude Pluses.

This is my experience.  I'm sure others will have  different view about sound with the Cardas wire.
Hope it is useful.


----------



## Synergist969

Dear Ghosthouse:

    Thank you for such a clearly expressed, detailed and complete response to my query!  I appreciate your neutral/objective analysis, as well as providing "audio system" context with regard to the application of said IC's and speaker cables.  Indeed, "The Cable Company" is from whom I have ordered my OHNO lll's, as well as received the quote regarding the Cardas Parsec speaker cables...
    It seems to be increasingly rare that I encounter such clear/unambiguous verbal content on internet forums!...

Thank you!

Peace/Namaste,
TAK


----------



## LouS (Jan 6, 2018)

Synergist969 said:


> Dear Ghosthouse:
> 
> Thank you for such a clearly expressed, detailed and complete response to my query!  I appreciate your neutral/objective analysis, as well as providing "audio system" context with regard to the application of said IC's and speaker cables.  Indeed, "The Cable Company" is from whom I have ordered my OHNO lll's, as well as received the quote regarding the Cardas Parsec speaker cables...
> It seems to be increasingly rare that I encounter such clear/unambiguous verbal content on internet forums!...
> ...



You may want to look at this;

https://www.musicdirect.com/cables/audioquest-king-cobra-interconnects-pr

2 Meter pair for 199, you can cut it in half and get 2 1 meter pairs for 100 each. Just sayin. I got their last demo pair, 2M for 155... 77.50 each + connectors if I cut them down. They have the diamondbacks for 67 a pair I think. They used to call them something different when made in US, same cable, but I think they used to sell for 400, that could be the King Cobras, but I think it was the diamondbacks, any way it's a pretty good deal for some nice cables. Just found and bought these too, they are from MusicDirect,but they are not selling them on line, or at least I couldn't find them on their site, but they are selling through Amazon;

https://www.amazon.com/AudioQuest-C...udioQuest+Columbia+audio+cable+-+XLR+plugs+1m


----------



## LouS

Ghosthouse said:


> Hi Namaste -
> I don't want to divert this Freya-dedicated thread to a cable discussion and incur the ire of the moderators so I will try to be brief.  I have found Freya sensitive (a good thing) to interconnect changes...more so than with the tubes I have tried.  If you are in the US, get in touch with The Cable Company.  They have a lending library (interconnects, speaker cable, digital cable) and for 10% of the cost of the cables you can audition several in your home for a few days.  If you don't buy, that money will be available to you as a store credit applicable on future purchases.  If you do buy, the deposit applies to the purchase price of your cable.  One difficulty might be the 15 foot length you mention.  I don't know if they have that length in their library.
> 
> Here is a link to their website:  https://www.thecableco.com
> ...



BTW Ghosthouse, you're an asshole, I thought I was about done spending money, now I am buying cables again. Seriously though, my system using the Yggdrasil is bright, cables would explain it, thanks!


----------



## LouS

hornytoad said:


> When you put the case back on. let me know if you get some tube vibration. I have had some in all 3 quad sets of tubes I have tried  , including the Treasures.



Hi Hornytoad,

I was just wondering if you know how to check for microphonic tubes? If you have the volume at a reasonable listening level tapping on the top of your tubes with your finger should result in little to know sound at your speakers. If you do hear a thud your tube is microphonic.


----------



## hornytoad

LouS said:


> Hi Hornytoad,
> 
> I was just wondering if you know how to check for microphonic tubes? If you have the volume at a reasonable listening level tapping on the top of your tubes with your finger should result in little to know sound at your speakers. If you do hear a thud your tube is microphonic.


I don’t hear a thud but I do hear a clank if you know what I mean


----------



## LouS

hornytoad said:


> I don’t hear a thud but I do hear a clank if you know what I mean



Well, if you are hearing that it sounds like you have microphonic tubes. With microphonic tubes you can also hear a noise out of your speakers if you tap on the preamp. It should be pretty much quiet if the tubes are good.


----------



## hornytoad

LouS said:


> Well, if you are hearing that it sounds like you have microphonic tubes. With microphonic tubes you can also hear a noise out of your speakers if you tap on the preamp. It should be pretty much quiet if the tubes are good.


Also , I hear a buzzing noise .. bzzzzzzzz, that comes and goes out of both channels . Sometimes it’s loud enough to hear from the listening position about 7 feet away on quiet piano or ambient music .This is in tube mode only


----------



## LouS

hornytoad said:


> Also , I hear a buzzing noise .. bzzzzzzzz, that comes and goes out of both channels . Sometimes it’s loud enough to hear from the listening position about 7 feet away on quiet piano or ambient music .This is in tube mode only



It sounds like you have some weird things going on. The buzzing I have never heard from tubes, but my experience with tubes is limited. I hope That's a tube issue. Did you buy it new? If so once you have some known good tubes, I think a trip back to the factory may be in order.


----------



## hornytoad

LouS said:


> It sounds like you have some weird things going on. The buzzing I have never heard from tubes, but my experience with tubes is limited. I hope That's a tube issue. Did you buy it new? If so once you have some known good tubes, I think a trip back to the factory may be in order.


Schiit looked at it and could not replicate the buzzing


----------



## hornytoad

LouS said:


> It sounds like you have some weird things going on. The buzzing I have never heard from tubes, but my experience with tubes is limited. I hope That's a tube issue. Did you buy it new? If so once you have some known good tubes, I think a trip back to the factory may be in order.


Tapping on the preamp and both channels have a clanking and rattle type sound


----------



## sam6550a

hornytoad said:


> Schiit looked at it and could not replicate the buzzing


When you sent it to Schiit, did you send the "buzzing" tubes with it? The buzzing could be due to heater-cathode leakage [or short] in one or more of the tubes. Suggest you borrow a set of good tubes to try.


----------



## hornytoad

sam6550a said:


> When you sent it to Schiit, did you send the "buzzing" tubes with it? The buzzing could be due to heater-cathode leakage [or short] in one or more of the tubes. Suggest you borrow a set of good tubes to try.


None of my tubes were sent with the Freya .


----------



## LouS

I'm glad sam6550a has more experience with bad tubes. Mine usually seem to work for years with out issue. I do have a tube tester though, so I know they are good, though microphonics have to be tested for in circuit as far as I know.  I could send you some that work, though I am a bit lean right now, I sent a batch to an audio friend in CA because I had some he had never heard.


----------



## hornytoad

LouS said:


> I'm glad sam6550a has more experience with bad tubes. Mine usually seem to work for years with out issue. I do have a tube tester though, so I know they are good, though microphonics have to be tested for in circuit as far as I know.  I could send you some that work, though I am a bit lean right now, I sent a batch to an audio friend in CA because I had some he had never heard.


Thanks for the offer , I am going to ask a local dealer to test .


----------



## LouS

hornytoad said:


> Thanks for the offer , I am going to ask a local dealer to test .



Sounds good, if he sells tubes you may be able to get an idea how good, or bad, they sound in your Freya.


----------



## sam6550a

hornytoad said:


> None of my tubes were sent with the Freya .


The buzzing has to be the tubes because a) you don't get the problem in FET or passive modes b) Schiit could not duplicate the problem because they probably used their "test" tubes on the bench.


----------



## sam6550a

hornytoad said:


> Thanks for the offer , I am going to ask a local dealer to test .


Be careful---depending upon the tube tester and how it tests the tubes, heater-cathode  leakage may or may not be detected. The best method is substitution of known good tubes.


----------



## cskippy

Also, the buzzing could be interference from a Wifi router, your cellphone, or another piece of electronics.  Have you tried disconnecting all input cables to Freya and seeing if the noise gets better?


----------



## hornytoad (Jan 7, 2018)

cskippy said:


> Also, the buzzing could be interference from a Wifi router, your cellphone, or another piece of electronics.  Have you tried disconnecting all input cables to Freya and seeing if the noise gets better?


Well the buzzing stops when I tap the tube , usually


----------



## cskippy

Then that's tube microphonics/ a noisy tube.


----------



## hornytoad

cskippy said:


> Then that's tube microphonics/ a noisy tube.


Man I have had such tough luck with tubes : stock tubes were terrible , Tung-sol new production went noisy after 60 days , now Shuangang Treasure tubes are noisy ( these sound very good and had no noise for about 20-30 days , now all of them are noisy at some point ) 
Oh well .


----------



## cskippy

That's my one issue with Freya, is the gain makes tube noise far easier to hear.  You would need very inefficient speakers to lower the noise.  I hope with a Freya 2 they offer maybe two gain levels in tube mode: high gain, where it's currently at, and low gain, maybe just above 0dB gain, so that Freya could be used with more speakers without issue.


----------



## hornytoad

cskippy said:


> That's my one issue with Freya, is the gain makes tube noise far easier to hear.  You would need very inefficient speakers to lower the noise.  I hope with a Freya 2 they offer maybe two gain levels in tube mode: high gain, where it's currently at, and low gain, maybe just above 0dB gain, so that Freya could be used with more speakers without issue.


Hell im using Kef ls50’s in one setup . They are pretty inefficient .


----------



## hornytoad

cskippy said:


> Then that's tube microphonics/ a noisy tube.


Well , this is what the seller said so I’m confused :
If the problem is  discontinuous, this is vibration and noise of some transformers in the power.


----------



## whatcomfalls

Are all your tubes noisy? Do they all buzz?


----------



## hornytoad

whatcomfalls said:


> Are all your tubes noisy? Do they all buzz?[/
> Hard to say . At least two of the four buzz off and on at random times . I know I have switched up these tubes , left to right and gain to output , and I still get this intermittent buzzing noise I can hear through the speakers . It usually doesn’t last long , maybe 3 seconds tops .
> I can hear it at the listening position on quiet music 6 feet away .


----------



## motberg

Hi, I am not a Freya owner, but thought maybe helpful to mention a problem that I have had with various tube preamps.
I do not know the source, but with a few different tube preamps and dacs I sometimes encounter an low-level, intermittent high-pitched squeak, something like +6db at 7.5khz.
I found that this could be alleviated by using shielded balanced XLR interconnects (non-shielded XLR still lets the squeak through). 

I guess I have been lucky with tubes, as I have tried over 50 different types (small sized tubes - NOS, used and new) in the past 10 years and never encountered discernible hissing or buzzing..


----------



## hornytoad (Jan 9, 2018)

motberg said:


> Hi, I am not a Freya owner, but thought maybe helpful to mention a problem that I have had with various tube preamps.
> I do not know the source, but with a few different tube preamps and dacs I sometimes encounter an low-level, intermittent high-pitched squeak, something like +6db at 7.5khz.
> I found that this could be alleviated by using shielded balanced XLR interconnects (non-shielded XLR still lets the squeak through).
> 
> I guess I have been lucky with tubes, as I have tried over 50 different types (small sized tubes - NOS, used and new) in the past 10 years and never encountered discernible hissing or buzzing..


I use Mogami Gold xlr's .Not sure if they are shielded


----------



## whatcomfalls

hornytoad said:


> I sue Mogami Gold xlr's .Not sure if they are shielded


I use these too. I believe they're copper shielded. FWIW, I've got about 20 NOS 6sn7s, with about half of them unsuitable for a pre-amp (i.e. either noisy,Overly microphonic, or both).


----------



## hornytoad

whatcomfalls said:


> I use these too. I believe they're copper shielded. FWIW, I've got about 20 NOS 6sn7s, with about half of them unsuitable for a pre-amp (i.e. either noisy,Overly microphonic, or both).





whatcomfalls said:


> I use these too. I believe they're copper shielded. FWIW, I've got about 20 NOS 6sn7s, with about half of them unsuitable for a pre-amp (i.e. either noisy,Overly microphonic, or both).


Thanks for the reply. I guess tubes can really be quite fickle. 

I tried some silicone rings and they did nothing. 

I am going to try Herbies tube dampers as its only 100 bucks. I have nothing to lose!


----------



## whatcomfalls

hornytoad said:


> I am going to try Herbies tube dampers as its only 100 bucks. I have nothing to lose!


I'm using  Herbies dampers--they don't do anything for a noisy tube. They can help tame a non-severe case of microphonics however.


----------



## hornytoad (Jan 9, 2018)

whatcomfalls said:


> I'm using  Herbies dampers--they don't do anything for a noisy tube. They can help tame a non-severe case of microphonics however.


Well we shall see. Maybe I have a little too much vibration going on with the socket savers


----------



## whatcomfalls

hornytoad said:


> Well we shall see. Maybe I have a little too much vibration going on with the socket savers


They may help with vibration.  I consider tube noise as sputtering, popping, and hissing, which differs from tube microphony


----------



## LouS

hornytoad said:


> Well , this is what the seller said so I’m confused :
> If the problem is  discontinuous, this is vibration and noise of some transformers in the power.



Not my tubes. Transformers generally take decades to delaminate and make noise. Unless Schiit got a bad batch of transformers I am not buying transformers, especially since they checked it out.


----------



## hornytoad

LouS said:


> Not my tubes. Transformers generally take decades to delaminate and make noise. Unless Schiit got a bad batch of transformers I am not buying transformers, especially since they checked it out.


That's what I thought when I read it.


----------



## LouS

"No way that I'd pay $30 for a tube damper. I have used o-rings for years. If you want to experiment, you can fabricate couple of the halo style very easily. I can't see any advantage there; it doesn't really add mass, so it doesn't seem like it would fundamentally change the resonant frequencies or damping vs an o-ring or two. I would like to think that if any sort of tube damper, whether weighted or not, really made a huge improvement in sound, it would be standard equipment inside of high end tube amps such as those by ARC. Most companies that use anything, use an o-ring or a type of wider band that is basically a heavy, silicone grommet. It would become rather economical to add a more advanced type if it made a significant difference, due to the scale of production. The next time that I get around to it, I'll probably look into some larger bands rather than using a couple of o-rings myself. Not sure that there would be a sonic difference but it will only be a few dollar investment for a set."

I tend to agree with the above.


----------



## armyjazzer

Put 4 Shuguang Treasure Cv181-z tubes in.  Waiting for them and my Yggdrasil to break in.







Tube Monger has some that fit but is charging $40 for them.  You can buy these on ebay cheap:






Sand the outer diameter down a little and they work (cheap belt sander with 50 grit paper gets the job done in no time  ):


----------



## jseymour

These work without sanding:  http://www.partsconnexion.com/SOCKET-74489.html


----------



## hornytoad

jseymour said:


> These work without sanding:  http://www.partsconnexion.com/SOCKET-74489.html


Yes they work well


----------



## KoshNaranek

CV181 tubes draw 900milliamps heater current. 6SN7 draws 600. Has anyone checked with Schiit if this is within specifications for Freya?


----------



## hornytoad

KoshNaranek said:


> CV181 tubes draw 900milliamps heater current. 6SN7 draws 600. Has anyone checked with Schiit if this is within specifications for Freya?


Good question


----------



## KoshNaranek

hornytoad said:


> Good question


Upon further research, the Treasure cv181z draws less than a standard CV181. 600 milliamps


----------



## winders

KoshNaranek said:


> CV181 tubes draw 900milliamps heater current. 6SN7 draws 600. Has anyone checked with Schiit if this is within specifications for Freya?



The Shuguang Treasure Cv181-z tubes are not really CV-181 tubes. They are 6SN7 tubes as far as specs go...


----------



## LouS

KoshNaranek said:


> CV181 tubes draw 900milliamps heater current. 6SN7 draws 600. Has anyone checked with Schiit if this is within specifications for Freya?



Shuguang calls it a 181, then says it's really a 6SN7, so they are 100% compatible.


----------



## LouS

hornytoad said:


> Man I have had such tough luck with tubes : stock tubes were terrible , Tung-sol new production went noisy after 60 days , now Shuangang Treasure tubes are noisy ( these sound very good and had no noise for about 20-30 days , now all of them are noisy at some point )
> Oh well .



I had heard that at first Shuguang Treasures had issues, but supposedly they had addressed them. That was supposedly their first run, but I suspect that yours were purchased more recently, that sucks!


----------



## LouS

Ghosthouse said:


> Hi Namaste -
> I don't want to divert this Freya-dedicated thread to a cable discussion and incur the ire of the moderators so I will try to be brief.  I have found Freya sensitive (a good thing) to interconnect changes...more so than with the tubes I have tried.  If you are in the US, get in touch with The Cable Company.  They have a lending library (interconnects, speaker cable, digital cable) and for 10% of the cost of the cables you can audition several in your home for a few days.  If you don't buy, that money will be available to you as a store credit applicable on future purchases.  If you do buy, the deposit applies to the purchase price of your cable.  One difficulty might be the 15 foot length you mention.  I don't know if they have that length in their library.
> 
> Here is a link to their website:  https://www.thecableco.com
> ...




I got a set of AQ Colorado's in today, they were definitely better than the Mogami ICs I had been using. The difference of using it between the Yggdrasil and the Freya was not as impactful as a change in tubes, but it was a nice improvement. Unfortunately my amp is single ended, so I can't use XLRs there, but I may swap around some of my SE cables to see if I can achieve any improvement there. Highs are still a tad hot on perhaps 5-10% of my recordings, espescially a set of Sinatra CDs done by EMI I believe in England. I never had issues with my DVD player. I have a set of used DH Revalations coming, they are supposed to render very good highs with no etching glare, etc., but it could be an issue with the cable going to the amp, that may be more critical than the one between the DAC and preamp, espescially as they are made by the same company so they ought to play well together!


----------



## hornytoad

LouS said:


> I had heard that at first Shuguang Treasures had issues, but supposedly they had addressed them. That was supposedly their first run, but I suspect that yours were purchased more recently, that sucks!


Yep . I have a Rogue Cronos Magnum II with KT120 tubes and never had an issue with microphonics thankfully.


----------



## LouS

hornytoad said:


> Yep . I have a Rogue Cronos Magnum II with KT120 tubes and never had an issue with microphonics thankfully.



6SN7's are notoriously microphonic. I don't think that any of my 6dj8 Amperex/Phillips or Siemens nor any 12AX7 Tele or Amperex/Phillips that I have ever went microphonic, at least to the best of my recollection, but I have a set of NOS Ken Rads, and another that's used but reads new that are all microphonic.


----------



## belgiangenius

LouS said:


> I had heard that at first Shuguang Treasures had issues, but supposedly they had addressed them. That was supposedly their first run, but I suspect that yours were purchased more recently, that sucks!



I've never heard a Chinese tube that didn't sound like ass.


----------



## LouS

belgiangenius said:


> I've never heard a Chinese tube that didn't sound like ass.



Obviously you haven't heard the CZ181/6SN7  Shuguang Treasures or the Treasure II's they make for Pasvane. They still don't have the proper tone of the Ken Rads in the Freya, but they work nicely with them, they add a touch of soundstage that the Ken Rads lack. I would certainly take them over any Sylvanias I have heard, I'm less sure about RCA's, and while Treasures are magical with the Ked Rads, if I had to pick I'd stay with the live tone of the Ken Rads.


----------



## hornytoad

belgiangenius said:


> I've never heard a Chinese tube that didn't sound like ass.


What tubes do you like ?


----------



## belgiangenius

Kenrad VT231 staggered plate are very good, but my favorite are Raytheon VT-231 flat plate.


----------



## winders

belgiangenius said:


> Kenrad VT231 staggered plate are very good, but my favorite are Raytheon VT-231 flat plate.



Ditto on both counts!


----------



## hornytoad

belgiangenius said:


> Kenrad VT231 staggered plate are very good, but my favorite are Raytheon VT-231 flat plate.


Ok but where can you find a reliable supply?


----------



## Synergist969

_*[ "*_ Hi Namaste -
I don't want to divert this Freya-dedicated thread to a cable discussion and incur the ire of the moderators so I will try to be brief. I have found Freya sensitive (a good thing) to interconnect changes...more so than with the tubes I have tried. If you are in the US, get in touch with The Cable Company. They have a lending library (interconnects, speaker cable, digital cable) and for 10% of the cost of the cables you can audition several in your home for a few days. If you don't buy, that money will be available to you as a store credit applicable on future purchases. If you do buy, the deposit applies to the purchase price of your cable. One difficulty might be the 15 foot length you mention. I don't know if they have that length in their library.

Here is a link to their website: https://www.thecableco.com
Here is a phone number: 1-800-328-9973

As it turns out I tried the Audience Ohno III speaker cable at the same time that I auditioned the Cardas Parsec wire. The Ohno wire did not have the fullness of "body" I was looking for (mid-range a little recessed?) I didn't like it much. The Parsec cable provided a fuller sound with good detail yet not harsh (something I'd been fighting in my system). I was impressed with the image stability and "control" the Parsec's seemed to provide. Someone might argue the Ohno III is more linear (neutral?) than the Parsec. I preferred music with the Parsec. I wish the Ohno sounded better to me as it was less expensive.

Between Gungnir MB DAC and Freya I'm using a Cardas Golden Reference XLR cable. Depending on the amp (e.g., Hegel H200), this cable can be a bit TOO warm so I'll change it out for an Audioquest Columbia.

Between Freya and amps...
With a First Watt F7 amp, there is only a single ended input to connect the pre-amp so I use a previously purchased Cardas Parsec IC between Freya and First Watt.
With another amp (Merrill Audio Taranis) connection to the pre-amp is via XLR. With this amp I am using a Harmonic Technology Pro Silway II and Golden Reference between DAC and Freya. I am experimenting with the Parsec RCA between DAC and Freya vs the Golden Reference XLR between these pieces.

I enjoy the sound of music from the system with the Cardas wire in place. Speakers are Totem Forests or Silverline Prelude Pluse speakers (change them out periodically). I also have a run of Cardas 300B Microtwin between Heed Quasar phono preamp and Freya.

Previously I'd used Morrow Audio SP4 speaker wire and various Morrow Audio ICs (MA3 & MA4). These might be good on systems that are dark or "slow sounding". I've also used Clearday Double Shotgun speaker cable. You might consider trying these. Paul Laudati is a good guy to do business with and has a (30 day?) return policy. I greatly preferred this wire over the Morrow Audio cable on the Totem Forests. The Cleardays are what the Parsec cable replaced, mainly to deal with excessive brightness from the Silverline Prelude Pluses.

This is my experience. I'm sure others will have different view about sound with the Cardas wire.
Hope it is useful. _*"]*_

Peace/Namaste,
TAK[/QUOTE]


Synergist969 said:


> Dear Ghosthouse:
> 
> * [" * Thank you for such a clearly expressed, detailed and complete response to my query!  I appreciate your neutral/objective analysis, as well as providing "audio system" context with regard to the application of said IC's and speaker cables.  Indeed, "The Cable Company" is from whom I have ordered my OHNO lll's, as well as received the quote regarding the Cardas Parsec speaker cables...
> It seems to be increasingly rare that I encounter such clear/unambiguous verbal content on internet forums!...
> ...


----------



## Ghosthouse

Synergist969 said:


> _*[ "*_ Hi Namaste -
> I don't want to divert this Freya-dedicated thread to a cable discussion and incur the ire of the moderators so I will try to be brief. I have found Freya sensitive (a good thing) to interconnect changes...more so than with the tubes I have tried. If you are in the US, get in touch with The Cable Company. They have a lending library (interconnects, speaker cable, digital cable) and for 10% of the cost of the cables you can audition several in your home for a few days. If you don't buy, that money will be available to you as a store credit applicable on future purchases. If you do buy, the deposit applies to the purchase price of your cable. One difficulty might be the 15 foot length you mention. I don't know if they have that length in their library.
> 
> Here is a link to their website: https://www.thecableco.com
> ...


[/QUOTE]

Namaste/Synergist969 - 
Happy for you.  Great to hear the Ohno III wire is giving you the sound you want.  Best regards.


----------



## LouS

belgiangenius said:


> Kenrad VT231 staggered plate are very good, but my favorite are Raytheon VT-231 flat plate.



I think I have some 7n7 Raytheons, but my adapters are on loan for a few weeks. I figured they were made by another company and Raytheon just put their name on them.


----------



## jseymour

It is an established fact Sylvania made the vast majority of 7N7s.  As to other manufacturers this link says National Union also made them:  https://www.head-fi.org/threads/fel...7-6as7g-6080-5998.765460/page-4#post_11637768 
And here it says Raytheon also made them:  http://www.effectrode.com/signal-tubes/the-6sn7gt-the-best-general-purpose-dual-triode/
I like the Sylvania 7N7 very much.  No noise.  I have a pair of Tung-Sol 7N7 that I haven't tried yet. They look like Sylvanias.


----------



## belgiangenius

hornytoad said:


> Ok but where can you find a reliable supply?



If that's your concern, then you're probably better off with Chinese tubes.

I will hunt down the good ones, wherever they are in the jungle.


----------



## LouS

belgiangenius said:


> I've never heard a Chinese tube that didn't sound like ass.



Okay, now that I know your reference, you're absolutely right! What's crazy is that I actually had some Raytheon's but I never bothered listening to them, to me Raytheon just means military contractor, I figured that they were rebranded tubes and just never paid any attention to them. They wipe the floor with everything else. The Chinese Treasures are okay to have in the signal path, but I won't bother using the Freya without at lesst one set of Raytheons in it! Thanks!


----------



## belgiangenius

LouS said:


> Okay, now that I know your reference, you're absolutely right! What's crazy is that I actually had some Raytheon's but I never bothered listening to them, to me Raytheon just means military contractor, I figured that they were rebranded tubes and just never paid any attention to them. They wipe the floor with everything else. The Chinese Treasures are okay to have in the signal path, but I won't bother using the Freya without at lesst one set of Raytheons in it! Thanks!



My pleasure!  It's nice to know that my opinion helped increase your enjoyment of the music and the gear.  It's also nice to know that I'm not just smoking pot up here near Toronto.


----------



## LouS

belgiangenius said:


> My pleasure!  It's nice to know that my opinion helped increase your enjoyment of the music and the gear.  It's also nice to know that I'm not just smoking pot up here near Toronto.



The sad part is I could have already known it if I hadn't had preconceived notions about Raytheon!  I don't understand why no one is reverse engineering some of these great tubes! You would think that someone in the community might try a go fund me campaign or something. If I wanted to run a company I'd try it. I do know that you'd likely need say 10 mil or so to get a couple of tubes made, but with modern PLCs and such, once you had one perfect $1,600 or so medical grade Telefunken 12AX7 that you could easily sell at retail for $100 each or so, you could run off as many as you wanted to, same for these Raytheons, Bugle Boys, etc. Once that was done you could experiment with using different metallurgy in them etc. Anyway, getting back on track, I did order a few pair after your glowing endorsement of the Raytheons, I can't wait to see if the little Freya sounds even better with 2 pairs! Thanks again!


----------



## LouS

belgiangenius said:


> My pleasure!  It's nice to know that my opinion helped increase your enjoyment of the music and the gear.  It's also nice to know that I'm not just smoking pot up here near Toronto.



BTW, any difference in short or long plates, mine are long plate versions.


----------



## winders

The best Raytheon 6SN7 tubes are the VT-231 tubes with the flat black plates and 8 copper through rods. Also the wiring below the bottom mica plate will have a “T” configuration.


----------



## hornytoad

The saddest part for me is my Dad used to sell tubes for a living and had all of these NOS production at the house . 

The best of the best , but he never used them for audio and sold mostly to the military . 

What a missed opportunity for me .


----------



## LouS

winders said:


> The best Raytheon 6SN7 tubes are the VT-231 tubes with the flat black plates and 8 copper through rods. Also the wiring below the bottom mica plate will have a “T” configuration.



The tubes I have, have 3 ridges, and they sound really good. I ought to warm up my Coda, it's SS, but it is detailed, doing some AB with it might help me gain some perspective. It's odd though, most SS gear needs an hour or so warm up, but that preamp needs a couple of days at least.

I thought I was having cable issues, but I am thinking that the Ken Rads or the Treasures may be bright, though better cables can't hurt!


----------



## LouS

hornytoad said:


> The saddest part for me is my Dad used to sell tubes for a living and had all of these NOS production at the house .
> 
> The best of the best , but he never used them for audio and sold mostly to the military .
> 
> What a missed opportunity for me .



I was thinking along similar lines earlier today, but then I realized that if I knew then, I'd have so much money that I wouldn't care.


----------



## SAndreev

I've held myself up from posting here until I got the NGS (new gear syndrome) out of me, but I could no longer resist. Got my Freya about a week ago, and a pair of new production EH 6SN7. I've been evaluating Freya through different music and movies/shows and it is all that I wanted from it. Different, flexible and very good sounding. 
But today was an emotional moment. I have this CD, En Evening With John Petricci & Jordan Rudess, which I like a lot. Tonight was the first time I put it on with Freya in my system and all of a sudden -  I'm there, in that very concert hall. Very lifelike, amazing imaging, couldn't stop listening with my eyes closed, although it was intended more like a background listening session.

Still under impression. Now I'm even more inclined to test out how double mono Vidars would fare in my system when I can convince my wife I really need them in my life .


----------



## US Blues

SAndreev said:


> Still under impression. Now I'm even more inclined to test out how double mono Vidars would fare in my system when I can convince my wife I really need them in my life .



You absolutely need them, and she will hear and appreciate the difference between Vidar's and the Parasounds.


----------



## PieterV (Jan 21, 2018)

A week ago I gained an Yggdrasil, a Freya and a Vidar (running in stereo mode) having upgraded from a Nuprime IDA-16. Speakers are Vienna Acoustics Beethoven Baby Grand SEs. After a week the Yggdrasil is sounding sweeter and sweeter but I have a couple of questions about the Freya. Even running in passive mode it gets really hot (can't leave a hand on it very long hot). Also, it requires volume to be set at levels of 90%+. Until a set of balanced cables arrive I'm currently using reasonable quality RCA connections. Am I worrying too much having got used to the coolness of a class D? Any help / advice would be much appreciated.


----------



## hornytoad

PieterV said:


> A week ago I gained an Yggdrasil, a Freya and a Vidar (running in stereo mode) having upgraded from a Nuprime IDA-16. Speakers are Vienna Acoustics Beethoven Baby Grand SEs. After a week the Yggdrasil is sounding sweeter and sweeter but I have a couple of questions about the Freya. Even running in passive mode it gets really hot (can't leave a hand on it very long hot). Also, it requires volume to be set at levels of 90%+. Until a set of balanced cables arrive I'm currently using reasonable quality RCA connections. Am I worrying too much having got used to the coolness of a class D? Any help / advice would be much appreciated.


Tubes are hot ! I have a Freya and Rogue tube amp and both get quite hot


----------



## hornytoad

US Blues said:


> You absolutely need them, and she will hear and appreciate the difference between Vidar's and the Parasounds.


I have some Parasound equipment , P-3 preamp I run for an outdoor system comprising 20 speakers and my take on Parasound
is it can sound sort of lifeless but fairly accurate .


----------



## PieterV

OK , thank you very much. I'll get back to enjoying the music


----------



## hornytoad (Jan 21, 2018)

PieterV said:


> OK , thank you very much. I'll get back to enjoying the music


My only complaint about the Freya is it seems susceptible to tube vibration ( maybe because it’s light ?)
I tried silicone damper rings with little help but the Herbie’s tube dampers appear to do a great job in preventing  unwanted
tube vibration .

Oh and don’t judge the Freya based on the stock tubes which are terrible . I tossed mine in the trash after a month or two .


----------



## Synergist969

I keep checking within the Schiit Audio website to find a listing as to availability and price of the LISST's for the Freya valves, that one or more fellow HeadFier's had assuredly stated that Schiit Audio was attempting to provide by the end of the 4th quarter of 2017...
  I have not yet seen evidence of them...Perhaps I am just looking in the wrong place on the "Products" page of the Schiit Audio website...perhaps their design/manufacture priority has changed, and/or there have been unanticipated glitches in this process...?...

  Anyone out here in HeadFi land have any additional information?

Thanks in advance to anyone who has any solid, or at least semi-solid information...    ...

P.S....I KNOW it is not glass...However, some of us would love the reliability of solid-state with the advantage of single-ended signal source to balanced-output conversion, along with the additional gain, AND the decrease in heat generation...


----------



## US Blues

Synergist969 said:


> I keep checking within the Schiit Audio website to find a listing as to availability and price of the LISST's for the Freya valves, that one or more fellow HeadFier's had assuredly stated that Schiit Audio was attempting to provide by the end of the 4th quarter of 2017...
> I have not yet seen evidence of them...Perhaps I am just looking in the wrong place on the "Products" page of the Schiit Audio website...perhaps their design/manufacture priority has changed, and/or there have been unanticipated glitches in this process...?...
> 
> Anyone out here in HeadFi land have any additional information?
> ...



Jason hinted that they would make them for Freya, but he has never made any substantial, or even insubstantial, statements hinting at when this might happen.


----------



## SAndreev

hornytoad said:


> I have some Parasound equipment , P-3 preamp I run for an outdoor system comprising 20 speakers and my take on Parasound
> is it can sound sort of lifeless but fairly accurate .



I had no complaints on my P3 pre-amp, except the volume knob (that stopped working properly 2 years in, but I mostly use remote so I didn't care), but Freya brought new life to my system, and I really like to tube mode. 



hornytoad said:


> Oh and don’t judge the Freya based on the stock tubes which are terrible . I tossed mine in the trash after a month or two .



Even the left (output stage) pair? I only listened to all stock tubes for 2 days, and then replaced the input stage ones with a pair of EH. I like them, though one was a little bit buzzing occasionally, tried reseating it and it seemed to help.


----------



## LouS

PieterV said:


> A week ago I gained an Yggdrasil, a Freya and a Vidar (running in stereo mode) having upgraded from a Nuprime IDA-16. Speakers are Vienna Acoustics Beethoven Baby Grand SEs. After a week the Yggdrasil is sounding sweeter and sweeter but I have a couple of questions about the Freya. Even running in passive mode it gets really hot (can't leave a hand on it very long hot). Also, it requires volume to be set at levels of 90%+. Until a set of balanced cables arrive I'm currently using reasonable quality RCA connections. Am I worrying too much having got used to the coolness of a class D? Any help / advice would be much appreciated.



Hi PieterV,  the Yggdrasil likes to take it's sweet time before sounding good, Schiit ought to offer a 30 day return on it because it takes the better part of 14 days for it to really shine. 

Tubes get hot, there is no way around it. You can get some socket savers which will allow you to elevate your tubes out of the chassis and keep the internal temperatures on the Freya down a little bit. I have been debating trying the Vidar because I have a pretty nice amp. You really need to buy some NOS Raytheons. There are a couple of sellers on eBay who test for microphonics, I'd seriously consider getting at least one good pair.


----------



## hornytoad

Synergist969 said:


> I keep checking within the Schiit Audio website to find a listing as to availability and price of the LISST's for the Freya valves, that one or more fellow HeadFier's had assuredly stated that Schiit Audio was attempting to provide by the end of the 4th quarter of 2017...
> I have not yet seen evidence of them...Perhaps I am just looking in the wrong place on the "Products" page of the Schiit Audio website...perhaps their design/manufacture priority has changed, and/or there have been unanticipated glitches in this process...?...
> 
> Anyone out here in HeadFi land have any additional information?
> ...


They are coming according to Schiit personnel . I would suspect we will see them this quarter .


----------



## whatcomfalls

Synergist969 said:


> I keep checking within the Schiit Audio website to find a listing as to availability and price of the LISST's for the Freya valves,


Why use LISSTs when the Freya already has 2 soild state options in passive and JFET modes? I suppose LISSTs would make sense if you needed the extra gain.


----------



## PieterV

Hi LouS
Thank you very much for the advice and info. I had been sufficiently concerned about the running temperature of the Freya to take it back to the supplier here in Adelaide who ran it for a couple of days over the weekend. It's now back and am currently really enjoying how the Freya reveals the Yggdrasil. And it's going to get better? Am already thoroughly delighted with the increased detail, 'solidness' of the natural sound and the increased bass.
I'm running Freya (which is still quite hot) in JFET mode. So I might try it tomorrow with the tubes out and see what happens.
But I will look for those lifters and also the Raytheons 
Cheers


----------



## hornytoad

whatcomfalls said:


> Why use LISSTs when the Freya already has 2 soild state options in passive and JFET modes? I suppose LISSTs would make sense if you needed the extra gain.


It would have to be the extra gain with very low sensitivity speakers. I'm sure that some may not want to keep buying tubes all the time as added expenses . Ive already paid half the cost of the Freya in tube purchases.


----------



## LouS

hornytoad said:


> It would have to be the extra gain with very low sensitivity speakers. I'm sure that some may not want to keep buying tubes all the time as added expenses . Ive already paid half the cost of the Freya in tube purchases.



Half the cost?


LouS said:


> Hi PieterV,  the Yggdrasil likes to take it's sweet time before sounding good, Schiit ought to offer a 30 day return on it because it takes the better part of 14 days for it to really shine.
> 
> Tubes get hot, there is no way around it. You can get some socket savers which will allow you to elevate your tubes out of the chassis and keep the internal temperatures on the Freya down a little bit. I have been debating trying the Vidar because I have a pretty nice amp. You really need to buy some NOS Raytheons. There are a couple of sellers on eBay who test for microphonics, I'd seriously consider getting at least one good pair.




Here are some socket savers;

https://m.ebay.com/itm/1x-NEW-TUBE-...L6-6V6-6SN7-EL34-etc-/253063330770?nav=SEARCH

These are apparently stocked in the US, the ones I bought were ceramic, they were from China and took forever to get here. I didn't see them doing a quick search. I don't know if you are leaving your Yggdrasil on 24-7, but you need to unless you are not going to use it for a long time. They say it takes 2 days for it to stabilize once it fully cooks in, I haven't had mine off for more than 15 seconds since I bought it, an that's because it freaked out when I went to change tubes in the Freya, static from touching the Freya got the Yggdrasil to lock up, so I had to reset it. I now try to short myself to something other than the Freya or Yggdrasil, you can also spray a 50/50 Downey and water mix on the carpet.


----------



## hornytoad

LouS said:


> Half the cost?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, i have  paid about 350   for various quad sets of tubes. Freya is what 699?


----------



## LouS

hornytoad said:


> Yes, i have  paid about 350   for various quad sets of tubes. Freya is what 699?



Wow, I thought that I had erased that... I have a lot more in tubes and again in cables. I just ordered Cardas Golden Presence cables, they are half off at Parts Connection as are all Cardas's old lines. I no doubt either have more disposable income or am less disciplined, or both!


----------



## hornytoad

LouS said:


> Wow, I thought that I had erased that... I have a lot more in tubes and again in cables. I just ordered Cardas Golden Presence cables, they are half off at Parts Connection as are all Cardas's old lines. I no doubt either have more disposable income or am less disciplined, or both!


By the way, all of the tube vibration issues I had seem to have been resolved by Herbie's tube dampers . Cheap silicone damper rings did nothing.


----------



## LouS

hornytoad said:


> By the way, all of the tube vibration issues I had seem to have been resolved by Herbie's tube dampers . Cheap silicone damper rings did nothing.



That's great news, I don't understand how or why it works, but I am really glad they do! Thanks for the information!


----------



## jseymour

+1 for Herbie's tube dampener and put something heavy on top of Freya to dampen the chassis.


----------



## Synergist969

"It would have to be the extra gain with very low sensitivity speakers. I'm sure that some may not want to keep buying tubes all the time as added expenses . Ive already paid half the cost of the Freya in tube purchases.[/QUOTE said:
			
		

> "They are coming according to Schiit personnel . I would suspect we will see them this quarter.[/QUOTE said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## hornytoad

I asked the question about  LISST tubes and was told very specifically that they hoped to have them out by December or early 2018 .
I won’t say who I talked to but that’s what I was told .


----------



## Synergist969

Dear hornytoad:

    Thank you!...I am glad that you have established sufficient rapport/trust with them that someone there provided that specific and clear information to you...though I certainly understand their company policy, and reticence to offering such information to the general public, lest the company exercises their right to change their plans...    ...


----------



## purehifi192

Here's Jason's post on the LISST for the Freya: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/sch...bable-start-up.701900/page-1802#post-13880889 

Specifically


Jason Stoddard said:


> Hey all,
> 
> Another week, another chapter missed. I'm afraid things are just a bit too busy, and I'm not yet ready to do the year-in-review. Though I suppose I could, we don't really have anything else new to introduce this year.
> 
> ...


----------



## whatcomfalls (Jan 22, 2018)

So the LIS


purehifi192 said:


> Here's Jason's post on the LISST for the Freya: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/sch...bable-start-up.701900/page-1802#post-13880889
> 
> Specifically



So, the LISST will not be a solid-state equivalent of the 6SN7 but instead _"a solution for those of you who don't want to burn tubes, but don't want empty holes on the top of their preamps."_


----------



## wingsounds13

Well, tubes and solid state are never truly equivalents, merely comparable alternatives. 

J.P.


----------



## jerick70

jseymour said:


> +1 for Herbie's tube dampener and put something heavy on top of Freya to dampen the chassis.


What heavy item are you using to put on your Freya?


----------



## jseymour (Jan 22, 2018)

The mortar and pestle is 4 lbs.


----------



## jerick70

I think I may look at a record weight like this one Turntable Labs Record Weight...


----------



## jseymour

I would go with at least two of them.


----------



## PieterV

LouS said:


> Half the cost?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



All this stuff is completely fascinating - particularly as the last tube device I had anything to do with was a Philips radio from around the early 1960s. As a way of improving the current tube sound I have dipped my toe in the water and ordered some Tung Sol 6SN7GTB together with some socket savers which I hope will get the heat above the chassis. Though I'm not sure how much I will use them as I am really enjoying the clarity and transparency of the JFET mode. The current tubes certainly add warmth but at the cost of a lot of clarity and detail.


----------



## LouS

PieterV said:


> All this stuff is completely fascinating - particularly as the last tube device I had anything to do with was a Philips radio from around the early 1960s. As a way of improving the current tube sound I have dipped my toe in the water and ordered some Tung Sol 6SN7GTB together with some socket savers which I hope will get the heat above the chassis. Though I'm not sure how much I will use them as I am really enjoying the clarity and transparency of the JFET mode. The current tubes certainly add warmth but at the cost of a lot of clarity and detail.




I hope you didn't make my mistake and buy them from Upscale Audio. I got 2 out of 4 which read bad Grid Leakage on my Sencore. They kept procrastinating doing anything, so I finally got tired and complained to PayPal, and the BBB. Later I saw where New Sensor was complaining about the sensitivity of the Sencore testers, Sencore boasted the most sensitive grid leakage test on the market. Why cry about a more thorough inspection rather than trying to correct the issue makes little sense to me, but that appears to be the manufacturer's answer. They say their tubes are fine, if so why can't they pass the test? Anyway, hopefully you bought from someone who will work with you if you have issues. The new Tong-Sols are okay, but what you really need, if you want the best sound, are some old Raytheons, though you may want to wait until off season, I suspect that prices spike in winter as people are spending more time listening, thus more money buying. I could be wrong, but I suspect that this happens.


----------



## winders

I have some nice Raytheon tubes for sale at great prices!

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/various-6sn7-tube-pairs-for-sale.869970/


----------



## PieterV

LouS said:


> I hope you didn't make my mistake and buy them from Upscale Audio. I got 2 out of 4 which read bad Grid Leakage on my Sencore. They kept procrastinating doing anything, so I finally got tired and complained to PayPal, and the BBB. Later I saw where New Sensor was complaining about the sensitivity of the Sencore testers, Sencore boasted the most sensitive grid leakage test on the market. Why cry about a more thorough inspection rather than trying to correct the issue makes little sense to me, but that appears to be the manufacturer's answer. They say their tubes are fine, if so why can't they pass the test? Anyway, hopefully you bought from someone who will work with you if you have issues. The new Tong-Sols are okay, but what you really need, if you want the best sound, are some old Raytheons, though you may want to wait until off season, I suspect that prices spike in winter as people are spending more time listening, thus more money buying. I could be wrong, but I suspect that this happens.



I've ordered them from a supplier here in Australia and they are not a lot of money in the scheme of things. Here's hoping I get treated properly. 
But I hear what you say regarding the Raytheons. . I am pretty interested in exploring how best to maximise the experience from digital and find what I am now hearing from the Yggdrasil / Freya / Vidar combination as digital sources absolutely stunning. But....you may yet get me converted to the more euphonic experience of tubes.


----------



## LouS

PieterV said:


> I've ordered them from a supplier here in Australia and they are not a lot of money in the scheme of things. Here's hoping I get treated properly.
> But I hear what you say regarding the Raytheons. . I am pretty interested in exploring how best to maximise the experience from digital and find what I am now hearing from the Yggdrasil / Freya / Vidar combination as digital sources absolutely stunning. But....you may yet get me converted to the more euphonic experience of tubes.



Virtually all studios use tubes at least for microphones for a reason. I don't know what you are using for source material, but I mostly use my computer and FOOBAR2000. This card has a chipset that you can find bit perfect drivers for;


https://smile.amazon.com/your-order...ryId=&returnUnitIndices=&shipmentId=DQ1lZNXh4

Bit perfect feeding a bit perfect Yggdrasil makes for some great music.


----------



## PieterV

LouS said:


> Virtually all studios use tubes at least for microphones for a reason. I don't know what you are using for source material, but I mostly use my computer and FOOBAR2000. This card has a chipset that you can find bit perfect drivers for;
> 
> 
> https://smile.amazon.com/your-order...ryId=&returnUnitIndices=&shipmentId=DQ1lZNXh4
> ...



Interesting what you say about recording studios. 
I've got my library in mainly flac at various resolutions stored on a QNAP TVS-671 NAS which is running Roon server. Any other formats such as DSD or ALAC is converted by Roon. It streams over local Cat-6 ethernet to an Auralic Aries then DSP room correction on a Minidsp DDR-22D and on to the Yggdrasil at 24/96. No bits lost - not even in the DAC any more


----------



## LouS

PieterV said:


> I've ordered them from a supplier here in Australia and they are not a lot of money in the scheme of things. Here's hoping I get treated properly.
> But I hear what you say regarding the Raytheons. . I am pretty interested in exploring how best to maximise the experience from digital and find what I am now hearing from the Yggdrasil / Freya / Vidar combination as digital sources absolutely stunning. But....you may yet get me converted to the more euphonic experience of tubes.





PieterV said:


> Interesting what you say about recording studios.
> I've got my library in mainly flac at various resolutions stored on a QNAP TVS-671 NAS which is running Roon server. Any other formats such as DSD or ALAC is converted by Roon. It streams over local Cat-6 ethernet to an Auralic Aries then DSP room correction on a Minidsp DDR-22D and on to the Yggdrasil at 24/96. No bits lost - not even in the DAC any more



Nice! I know some guys at work who have home recording studios and even they use tubes, though they are using cheap ones, so I am not sure that it's really worth it....


----------



## LouS

whatcomfalls said:


> I'm using  Herbies dampers--they don't do anything for a noisy tube. They can help tame a non-severe case of microphonics however.



Do they improve the sound of good tubes as they claim?


----------



## hornytoad

LouS said:


> Do they improve the sound of good tubes as they claim?


I’m just starting using Herbies tube dampers and they worked for me . A few of my tubes were slightly noisy . 
If you have a bad tube , I’m guessing nothing will work


----------



## LouS

hornytoad said:


> I’m just starting using Herbies tube dampers and they worked for me . A few of my tubes were slightly noisy .
> If you have a bad tube , I’m guessing nothing will work



I get that, but some people claim that it makes perfectly good tubes sound better by reducing the effects of vibration in the tube. I guess that with a 90 day return policy it can't hurt to try them.


----------



## hornytoad

LouS said:


> I get that, but some people claim that it makes perfectly good tubes sound better by reducing the effects of vibration in the tube. I guess that with a 90 day return policy it can't hurt to try them.


Well they make the tubes sound better if they are reducing noise and that’s what they did for me .

But yes the claim of making good tubes sound better by reducing the effects of vibration .... hmmm I’m a little skeptical .


----------



## whatcomfalls

LouS said:


> Do they improve the sound of good tubes as they claim?


Good tubes don't need them


----------



## LouS (Jan 25, 2018)

hornytoad said:


> Well they make the tubes sound better if they are reducing noise and that’s what they did for me .
> 
> But yes the claim of making good tubes sound better by reducing the effects of vibration .... hmmm I’m a little skeptical .



That's what I think too. Some guys have taken their mats, cut them up and stuck them to transistors and such. Ric Schultz makes part of his living sticking things on components. Call me a skeptic, I just ordered some of Herbie's vibration things, but I strongly suspect that a lot of it will be going back, time will tell!


----------



## LouS

whatcomfalls said:


> Good tubes don't need them



That's what I think, but he has testimonials that claim otherwise. Do they have bad tubes and not know it, likely, anyway I should have a better idea myself in a few days if they get around to shipping them.


----------



## hornytoad

LouS said:


> That's what I think, but he has testimonials that claim otherwise. Do they have bad tubes and not know it, likely, anyway I should have a better idea myself in a few days if they get around to shipping them.


Lou , I think you mentioned earlier in this thread that 6sn7 tubes are notorious for microphonics .

If that’s true , having some Herbies tube dampers around is probably not a bad idea .


----------



## LouS

hornytoad said:


> Lou , I think you mentioned earlier in this thread that 6sn7 tubes are notorious for microphonics .
> 
> If that’s true , having some Herbies tube dampers around is probably not a bad idea .



I have 3 Ken Rads that are horrible, I can't imagine anything external fixing them, but time will tell.


----------



## hornytoad

LouS said:


> I have 3 Ken Rads that are horrible, I can't imagine anything external fixing them, but time will tell.


Maybe the Herbies could reduce the noise some .

Let us know .


----------



## whatcomfalls

LouS said:


> That's what I think, but he has testimonials that claim otherwise. Do they have bad tubes and not know it, likely, anyway I should have a better idea myself in a few days if they get around to shipping them.


They'll damp a microphonic tube but not necessarily improve sound quality. They did nothing to reduce noise (hiss, sshhh, etc.). This is my experience


----------



## hornytoad

whatcomfalls said:


> They'll damp a microphonic tube but not necessarily improve sound quality. They did nothing to reduce noise (hiss, sshhh, etc.). This is my experience


They did reduce , virtually eliminate some buzzing noise I had in a couple of tubes so I’m happy with that .


----------



## LouS

whatcomfalls said:


> They'll damp a microphonic tube but not necessarily improve sound quality. They did nothing to reduce noise (hiss, sshhh, etc.). This is my experience



I think some people claimed that it they cut down on sibilance, but I am wondering if they weren't using bad tubes. Some guy said he cut up a mat they sell, glued pieces to transistors and such and went on about how much better everything sounded. I think it would have to be a night and day difference, or that I'd have to have identical gear that I could swap out before I'd make such a claim. I'm also skeptical about power cords unless they have a LOT of noise on their AC, and the cord is acting like a choke due to how it's woven, but generally speaking I am a skeptic. That said I use to be a cable skeptic years ago, so I could change my mind if I actually heard a difference in an area where there shouldn't be a lot of noise on the AC.


----------



## LouS

hornytoad said:


> They did reduce , virtually eliminate some buzzing noise I had in a couple of tubes so I’m happy with that .



I think he's talking about sibilance not tube noise from bad tubes, but noise inherent in all tubes.


----------



## LouS

hornytoad said:


> Maybe the Herbies could reduce the noise some .
> 
> You know I will!


----------



## brad1138 (Jan 29, 2018)

I have (among others ) a set of 4 Tung-Sol NP and a set of 4 Tung-sol NOS. I have been running 1 pair of the NP in the buffer, and rolling the gain stage through about 1/2 dozen various tubes. I tired the NOS in the gain stage, and they worked well. With Ken Rad Staggered plates in the gain(not necessarily relevant), I thought I would try the NOS in the buffer stage. The hum was horrible, very loud. Enough to hear from the sitting position. I went back to the NP in the buffer, and the noise was all but gone (back to normal for tubes).

It just seemed odd, does that really make any sense? Why would they create so much noise in the buffer stage, but not the gain?


----------



## LouS

Synergist969 said:


> Now that Freya's are beginning to come into possession of more/many(?) of us "Schiit-O-Philes"...
> 
> Of those of you who have owned or at least heard both and Freya and Ragnarok, (as a pre-amp), in your audio systems, would you please compare/contrast the sound qualities of both Freya and Ragnarok...?...frequency curve/timbre, image size/breadth/depth, image specificity, etc...as I currently use my "Rag" as my stereo system pre-amp, but am VERY curious/interested in the Freya as a dedicated pre-amp, so as to not have to power-up another amplifier within my pre-amp, (60 watts/channel...),  when I am listen to my speakers, (driven by an Aragon 4004 amp)...
> 
> ...



Hi Synergist969,

As for the Vidars vs Aragon, if you have had no mods made and run a pair of Vidars, they should wipe the floor with your Aragon. Mind you that I am generalizing, a few designers were aware of diode's ringing issues and used the proper capacitors in parallel to the rectifiers in order to quite the diodes, but it wasn't common practice. So these days they generally use Hexfred or other so called soft recovery diodes which don't ring. That itself will clean up any low level noise which will give you a "darker" background increasing the detail that you'll be able to hear. Virtually all of the components made these days are made to much higher standards as so many will be used at frequencies not previously used in non military or medical applications, so unless your amp has had extensive modifications, a pair of Vidars ought to sound much better, but to be safe, I'd try as single Vidar first and hold onto the Aragon at least until the trial period is over, just in case of disappointment.

I have an extremely modified Stasis amp, only the transistors in the driver stages and the transformer are original. As impressive as it is, and it is an awesome amplifier, I have considered trying a Vidar, and may at some point, though I do doubt that they can really replace it. Threshold, Levenson, Krell, and the like are pretty hard to top, and if I had Spectral gear I don't think that I would even consider a Vidar. Aragon like the venerable PS Audio 200CX is a pretty awesome amplifier, but unless you can do your own mods, it just wouldn't make economic sense to upgrade it, IMHO. Upgraded it would likely be the equal, and it could even better the Vidars, it's one of those iconic legends of it's time, and can hold it's own against a lot of newer amps as is.


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## ZAXX40 (Jan 29, 2018)

brad1138 said:


> I have (among others ) a set of 4 Tung-Sol NP and a set of 4 Tung-sol NOS. I have been running 1 pair of the NP in the buffer, and rolling the gain stage through about 1/2 dozen various tubes. I tired the NOS in the gain stage, and they worked well. With Ken Rad Staggered plates in the gain(not necessarily relevant), I thought I would try the NOS in the buffer stage. The hum was horrible, very loud. Enough to hear from the sitting position. I went back to the NP in the buffer, and the noise was all but gone (back to normal for tubes).
> 
> It just seemed odd, does that really make any sense? Why would they create so much noise in the buffer stage, but not the gain?


Great question I would love to know the answer too. I am a newbie top tubes so I am trying to learn. My Freya is silent even in tube gain mode with the 4 factory tubes.

I purchased 4 matched Northern Electric tubes. I replaced 2 of the stock tubes in the right side gain stage and my system was still silent. I installed the other 2
Northern Electric tubes in the left output stage. Noise was now present on both speakers.  Are these output tubes bad? Historically does rolling tubes in the output stage make for improved sound with good tubes or are we only concerned with rolling tubes in the gain stage?


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## LouS

This is arguably off topic except that the Freya is all about tubes, so it is also arguable that this is inherently relevant. 

New Sensor tubes and grid leakage. I just had to go through PayPal and the BBB to get a refund from Uptown Audio for some new Tong-sol tubes which read bad on my Sencore tube tester. I have heard that new tubes don't hold up as well as NOS tubes, perhaps their tubes having grid leakage issues right out of the box has something to do with that. They have even publicly addressed this;

http://www.tungsol.com/tungsol/html/faqs3.html

"Question:

What is grid leakage?

Answer:

Grid leak is the small current through the grid of a vacuum tube into the circuit feeding the grid. It is an inherent operating characteristic of triodes and other multi-grid vacuum tubes. This current is caused by the small negative voltage present in all vacuum tubes as a result of a space charge within the envelope of the tube. This space charge is part of the thermionic effect, which is the fundamental phenomenon behind all vacuum tubes.

Grid leakage is also a term that is frequently incorrectly used to describe the condition of a tube when tested on a tube tester. The correct term is inter-electrode leakage, which refers to leakage paths between the elements of a tube. Many emission type tube testers have leakage tests that far exceed the application of the tube being tested and will reject many perfectly functional tubes. Sencore sold tube testers in the 1960s that were claimed to have the "most sensitive leakage test in the industry"."

I also have read that early Treasure tubes had major issues, but all indications are that Shuguang has corrected this. No old tube technology is currently proprietary, so I just don't understand why these companies are not effectively making the old tubes rather than making tubes that out of the box cannot pass basic tests that older tubes do, I have not had even 1 6SN7 other than current production Tong-sols fail this test.... 

As for the Herbie's UltraSonic Rx Dampners, I am not at all sure that these do much at all, though to be fair I am juggling a multitude of new things in my system just now so consider this what it is, a poorly vetted initial impression. I have a lot more of Herbie's vibration products en route, I have always been a vibration skeptic, so if I come back and rave about his materials it won't be due to the placebo effect because I am not a believer. That said, if you have bad tubes, vibration is an issue, and treating the symptoms rather than getting a good set of tubes, which is not necessarily easy to do, has nothing to do with properly operating gear, which is what I care about.


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## hornytoad

LouS said:


> This is arguably off topic except that the Freya is all about tubes, so it is also arguable that this is inherently relevant.
> 
> New Sensor tubes and grid leakage. I just had to go through PayPal and the BBB to get a refund from Uptown Audio for some new Tong-sol tubes which read bad on my Sencore tube tester. I have heard that new tubes don't hold up as well as NOS tubes, perhaps their tubes having grid leakage issues right out of the box has something to do with that. They have even publicly addressed this;
> 
> ...


Hi Lou , the grid leakage issue is very interesting and I am glad you brought it up .
I have two Treasure tubes that occasionally have a buzzing sound . Herbies tube dampers did tame the buzzing so I’m happy . I could literally hear the buzzing noise from the listening position on quiet music .
But yes the tubes themselves are likely the real issue .


----------



## LouS

hornytoad said:


> Hi Lou , the grid leakage issue is very interesting and I am glad you brought it up .
> I have two Treasure tubes that occasionally have a buzzing sound . Herbies tube dampers did tame the buzzing so I’m happy . I could literally hear the buzzing noise from the listening position on quiet music .
> But yes the tubes themselves are likely the real issue .



That's crazy, new tubes being bad out of the box. I wish I had the money to manufacture tubes. With PLCs and robotics you should be able to replicate old tubes perfectly and manufacturer them en mass in no time. They ought to be easily sellable for $25 or less at a good profit.


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## buke9

LouS said:


> That's crazy, new tubes being bad out of the box. I wish I had the money to manufacture tubes. With PLCs and robotics you should be able to replicate old tubes perfectly and manufacturer them en mass in no time. They ought to be easily sellable for $25 or less at a good profit.


 Not sure I agree with replicating the tubes as a lot of the metals then were used for the first time other than having some of the last run thrown in. Who’s to know how that effects things and also we have better filters on the gas side than they did just a few decades ago . Just like building a Stradivarius likely can’t be replicated as the wood is so much different now with environmental changes and what is in the air now as opposed to then. Also the manufactured things quite a bit different then and for a good reason as a lot of it very bad for people and the environment but all of those metals and coatings and other things involved were made so much diffent back then so who is to know.


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## LouS

buke9 said:


> Not sure I agree with replicating the tubes as a lot of the metals then were used for the first time other than having some of the last run thrown in. Who’s to know how that effects things and also we have better filters on the gas side than they did just a few decades ago . Just like building a Stradivarius likely can’t be replicated as the wood is so much different now with environmental changes and what is in the air now as opposed to then. Also the manufactured things quite a bit different then and for a good reason as a lot of it very bad for people and the environment but all of those metals and coatings and other things involved were made so much diffent back then so who is to know.



There is a device that uses an electric arc to burn materials, it then examines the light put off, and then tells you everything in it based upon the light spectrum, as well as percentages. Strats are Strats due to the mini ice age, it could be replicated with sufficient funds, take full grown but very young trees, transplant them where temps match the temps the maple trees Stradivarius used were faced with. It would be EXTREMELY expensive, but it's doable since we know it was about the density of the wood. Given the proper technology all things physical can be replicated. The gas in the tubes can be tested as well, we have devices to measure gasses which are calibrated to standards and are trustworthy. It just takes money and initiative. If such horrid chemicals were used they likely would have pulled those tubes off the market decades ago and you could only get them.on the black market.


----------



## sam6550a

brad1138 said:


> I have (among others ) a set of 4 Tung-Sol NP and a set of 4 Tung-sol NOS. I have been running 1 pair of the NP in the buffer, and rolling the gain stage through about 1/2 dozen various tubes. I tired the NOS in the gain stage, and they worked well. With Ken Rad Staggered plates in the gain(not necessarily relevant), I thought I would try the NOS in the buffer stage. The hum was horrible, very loud. Enough to hear from the sitting position. I went back to the NP in the buffer, and the noise was all but gone (back to normal for tubes).
> 
> It just seemed odd, does that really make any sense? Why would they create so much noise in the buffer stage, but not the gain?


In Freya, the voltage amplifier stage is direct [DC] coupled to the cathode follower, necessitating biasing of the tube filaments at some DC voltage so as to not exceed the maximum heater-cathode voltage differential of the 6SN7, which I believe is about 100V. If the tube has heater-cathode leakage, you modulate the electron stream with power line frequency voltage, hence the buzz. In applications where there is not a large cathode resistor, the leakage is not noticeable.


----------



## sam6550a

LouS said:


> That's crazy, new tubes being bad out of the box. I wish I had the money to manufacture tubes. With PLCs and robotics you should be able to replicate old tubes perfectly and manufacturer them en mass in no time. They ought to be easily sellable for $25 or less at a good profit.


When vacuum tubes were mass manufactured, a LOT of manual labor was involved in winding filaments, placing filaments inside cathode tubes, assembling copper rods and mica spacers, etc. Most of this was done by craftsmen [or more accurately, craftswomen] who were meticulous. Because of this "human touch", some tubes sound better than others. The recipe depended on the chef, not the grocer providing the materials.


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## LouS

sam6550a said:


> When vacuum tubes were mass manufactured, a LOT of manual labor was involved in winding filaments, placing filaments inside cathode tubes, assembling copper rods and mica spacers, etc. Most of this was done by craftsmen [or more accurately, craftswomen] who were meticulous. Because of this "human touch", some tubes sound better than others. The recipe depended on the chef, not the grocer providing the materials.



Which is why we can make them so inexpensively now. Copy the best of the best, and that's what the machines will virtually always make. Obviously the machines will fail occasionally, but I am talking about the rule, not the exception. Virtually anything can be reverse engineered, and beyond that there should be a lab where testing is done to try slight variations in an attempt to ever improve the product. Other than the lab, the factory could very possibly be a lights out factory.


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## sam6550a

LouS said:


> Which is why we can make them so inexpensively now. Copy the best of the best, and that's what the machines will virtually always make. Obviously the machines will fail occasionally, but I am talking about the rule, not the exception. Virtually anything can be reverse engineered, and beyond that there should be a lab where testing is done to try slight variations in an attempt to ever improve the product. Other than the lab, the factory could very possibly be a lights out factory.


Sounds good on paper, but no current "new" 6SN7 tubes sound as good as NOS Red Base or Bad Boys.


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## LouS

sam6550a said:


> Sounds good on paper, but no current "new" 6SN7 tubes sound as good as NOS Red Base or Bad Boys.



Which is exactly why I said;

"That's crazy, new tubes being bad out of the box. I wish I had the money to manufacture tubes. With PLCs and robotics you should be able to replicate old tubes perfectly and manufacturer them en mass in no time. They ought to be easily sellable for $25 or less at a good profit."


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## sam6550a

LouS said:


> Which is exactly why I said;
> 
> "That's crazy, new tubes being bad out of the box. I wish I had the money to manufacture tubes. With PLCs and robotics you should be able to replicate old tubes perfectly and manufacturer them en mass in no time. They ought to be easily sellable for $25 or less at a good profit."


I guess that the recipe died with the chef, since no one has been able to do it, even with retail prices that make grown men cry.


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## LouS

sam6550a said:


> I guess that the recipe died with the chef, since no one has been able to do it, even with retail prices that make grown men cry.



It's probably more about people accepting mediocrity. If we refused to buy their crap THEN they would act, but as long as their pockets are doing well selling crap, why work, sit back and enjoy. Craftsmanship and pride in product is dead.


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## LouS

sam6550a said:


> I guess that the recipe died with the chef, since no one has been able to do it, even with retail prices that make grown men cry.



We roll steel as thin as we can to remain within standards because adding a thousand of an inch eventually means tons of product wasted. Sadly we are considered a great supplier by Toyota, Ford, GM, and who knows who else? We hit our numbers to be sure, but just. That's the way it's done.


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## sam6550a

LouS said:


> We roll steel as thin as we can to remain within standards because adding a thousand of an inch eventually means tons of product wasted. Sadly we are considered a great supplier by Toyota, Ford, GM, and who knows who else? We hit our numbers to be sure, but just. That's the way it's done.


A good part of it may be due to the belief that "if it measures the same, then it will sound the same". This seems to be the criteria used in everything from kitchen ware to machine tools to medical devices to clothing. Unfortunately, this causes the "you get what you pay for" folks to jack up prices on items that are well made and PERFORM well.


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## LouS

sam6550a said:


> A good part of it may be due to the belief that "if it measures the same, then it will sound the same". This seems to be the criteria used in everything from kitchen ware to machine tools to medical devices to clothing. Unfortunately, this causes the "you get what you pay for" folks to jack up prices on items that are well made and PERFORM well.



They jack up the prices because there is a basic formula that says they need to make 7 times cost to survive. Doing it right costs more, so you'll necessarily have to pay more if all else is equal. 

All else would not be equal going my route as automation cuts costs astronomically. Our mill once hired over 7,000 employees, and we put out a fraction of the steel, and a much lower quality steel than today with likely 3,000, though I am guessing due to contractors, we have less than 1,700 direct hourly workers.


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## LouS (Jan 30, 2018)

As far as measurements go, if your matrix is sufficient, than if it measures right it will be right. IOW, if you just count windings, you are screwed, but if you consider the exact formula of the wire used, any coatings, etc., THEN count windings, it'll be right. If not you would have to listen to an amp before buying it, not just the display model as they can't sound alike in your world. Thankfully that's not reality. Virtually all amps off a given production line will sound virtually identical not because they are hand made, but because we use sufficient quality assurance points to ensure that it's so. Were they hand made we'd need far MORE checks if we wanted uniformity and costs would sore as we reworked products because they failed this or that.


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## sam6550a

LouS said:


> As far as measurements go, if your matrix is sufficient, than if it measures right it will be right. IOW, if you just count windings, you are screwed, but if you consider the exact formula of the wire used, any coatings, etc., THEN count windings, it'll be right. If not you would have to listen to an amp before buying it, not just the display model as they can't sound alike in your world. Thankfully that's not reality. Virtually all amps off a given production line will sound virtually identical not because they are hand made, but because we use sufficient quality assurance points to ensure that it's so. Were they hand made we'd need far MORE checks if we wanted uniformity and costs would sore as we reworked products because they failed this or that.


Two different make amplifiers that may measure the same can and do sound very different from one another. The selected circuit topology, the stage phase/gain differences, layout, component selection and tweaking by the designer give an amplifier its "sonic personality", which seems to elude absolute specific parameter measurement. My point is that the ingredients and quantities may be identical, but the midas touch of the chef determines the sonic performance.


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## LouS

sam6550a said:


> Two different make amplifiers that may measure the same can and do sound very different from one another. The selected circuit topology, the stage phase/gain differences, layout, component selection and tweaking by the designer give an amplifier its "sonic personality", which seems to elude absolute specific parameter measurement. My point is that the ingredients and quantities may be identical, but the midas touch of the chef determines the sonic performance.



Yeah, look up strawman argument.


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## sam6550a

LouS said:


> Yeah, look up strawman argument.


It appears that you do not appreciate that there are an almost infinite number of variables in an audio system---some of which we probably do not understand completely, However, to take the position that "if I can measure it, and production engineer it" I can make a copy as good as what was made in 1950 is naive.


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## LouS

sam6550a said:


> It appears that you do not appreciate that there are an almost infinite number of variables in an audio system---some of which we probably do not understand completely, However, to take the position that "if I can measure it, and production engineer it" I can make a copy as good as what was made in 1950 is naive.



It would be, except that it's been done time and again. Even when they were hand made it was repeatable, some were better at it than others, but when has a Bugle Boy sounded like a Tong-sol? It hasn't, sorry but the fact that the variations in Bugle Boys was due to humans not holding standards defeats your argument. That said, we are too far off topic anyway.


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## jseymour

On NOS vs NP tubes, remember that most of the 40s tubes were made for military use and when WWII ended, it did not mean the manufacturing standards changed.  I strictly use NOS tubes.  IMO, they offer more value than high priced new production tubes.  

I found this to be a fascinating video on older tube manufacturing:   .  I doubt new production tubes in the 6SN7 family are made with the same care.


----------



## LouS

jseymour said:


> On NOS vs NP tubes, remember that most of the 40s tubes were made for military use and when WWII ended, it did not mean the manufacturing standards changed.  I strictly use NOS tubes.  IMO, they offer more value than high priced new production tubes.
> 
> I found this to be a fascinating video on older tube manufacturing:   .  I doubt new production tubes in the 6SN7 family are made with the same care.




We are way offc topic I suppose, but.... I would hope new tubes would be mostly machine made. I don't know the numbers, but 1 in X number of Telefunken 12AX7's were medical grade. Properly set up robots could turn out hundreds an hour I would think with near zero defects. The precision machines operate at these days is amazing. Properly programmed and maintained they, unlike us humans, can reliably make virtually identical parts within insane tollerences. Telefunken's best workers might only make one of ten, a hundred, or perhaps a thousand good enough to be considered medical grade in a given span of time.

That's the challenge in our future, manufacturing is becoming so automated that good paying manufacturing jobs will become ever scarcer, even fast food will increasingly become automated. How then are people going to afford all these things machines will be making? That's why we are increasingly hearing about alternative wages, virtually giving everyone X amount of money, then if they want to excel they'll have to find ways to earn more, if not, they are afforded a merger income. It doesn't make sense to me, but that's what many are considering.


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## jseymour

I don't think the sales volume potential is there for investment in new automated tube production.


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## LouS

jseymour said:


> I don't think the sales volume potential is there for investment in new automated tube production.



Point taken, but OTOH, if great sounding tubes were available in an abundence it is possible that they could migrate back into the mid-fi/consumer market. It would be one hell of a gamble, but it is possible however unlikely. Besides that though, there are several other points. First is that initially, after the tubes had time to develop a reputation for great sound and reliability, there would be a tremendous initial buy from music shops, tube equipment manufacturers, and tube marketers. The other point is that robots are run by programs, so the same robot that makes a 12AX7 very likely could be programmed to run off 6SN7's etc., etc. So you can keep them busy by manufacturing a number of types of tubes. Then you could also manufacture variants. No need to only emulate Telefunken, you could also make Amperex style 12AX7's, and if you are able to keep priced down through automation, people wouldn't mind buying a few of X sounding and a few of Y sounding tubes. I have no idea if it's truly plausible, but I wish someone would try it!


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## brad1138

Reading back through the last 10 or so pages, I saw Ken Rad staggered plates recommended and Raytheon VT-231 flat plate. Raytheon 7n7 was also mentioned, but it looked like maybe that is the same as Raytheon VT-231 flat plate?

I have a pair of Ken Rad staggered plates and they are very nice (I use them in the gain stage-Tung-Sol NP in buffer). I would like to find more of those or ones that are just as good, for when they wear out. The pictures links from the "The Reference 6SN7 Thread" are broken.

I know what the Ken rad staggered plates look like, how do I know I have found a true " Raytheon VT-213 flat plate" ? Also the The Reference 6SN7 Thread says the Ratheon "T" plate variant is very good as well.

Thanks


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## brad1138

OK, I found this picture, I would guess this is what I am looking for.


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## brad1138

OK, well, I think I figured it out. I just bought a pair of these, hope I did good...  ($53 shipped)


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## winders (Feb 4, 2018)

Those Raytheon tubes are okay but not nearly as nice as the VT-231 version.







Flat black plates are the best as they sound better than the "T" plate version. Also, I like the ones with the "T" post under the bottom mica plate.


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## brad1138 (Feb 3, 2018)

"VT-231" is a military part #, there is no difference between VT-231 and the same model & year 6SN7. I do see the physical difference, in the metal rod in your VTs.

http://www.vacuumtubes.com/6sn7.html (scroll down to 6SN7GT Raytheon)

Mine are the same as the VT-231 "type 1", yours are the VT-231 "type 2".


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## brad1138

I guess the question now becomes, is there a difference between the 2 versions of Raytheon VT-231 flat plates...  I appreciate your thoughts winders, but I would like some more opinions.


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## winders

brad1138 said:


> "VT-231" is a military part #, there is no difference between VT-231 and the same model & year 6SN7. I do see the physical difference, in the metal rod in your VTs.
> 
> http://www.vacuumtubes.com/6sn7.html (scroll down to 6SN7GT Raytheon)
> 
> Mine are the same as the VT-231 "type 1", yours are the VT-231 "type 2".



Look closely. There are MANY differences.


----------



## brad1138

winders said:


> Look closely. There are MANY differences.



That is fine, I am not worried about the differences. They are both (the same as) Raytheon VT-231 flat plates. Are only the type like yours the "good ones"? I just want to see if anyone else has experience with them and will back up your statement on their sound quality. We all have difference tastes, I am just hoping for a couple different "reviews". I will probably keep them anyway, make a good buffer tube, if not as good as I thought.


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## ZAXX40

brad1138 said:


> OK, well, I think I figured it out. I just bought a pair of these, hope I did good...  ($53 shipped)


May I ask where did you sourced them. I am located in Canada and looking ro find some decent tubes.


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## brad1138 (Feb 4, 2018)

ZAXX40 said:


> May I ask where did you sourced them. I am located in Canada and looking ro find some decent tubes.



eBay, they were the only matched pair, so I grabbed them faster than I might have. But the jury is still out on if these are "good" or not...


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## brad1138

The more I look, although there may nave been a VT-231 version of the GT, it doesn't seem to exist anywhere. And as winders said, the GT is not reviewed as anything special.


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## LouS (Feb 4, 2018)

brad1138 said:


> OK, I found this picture, I would guess this is what I am looking for.



That one sounds good, but the best ones that I have found have what looks like a T in the middle of the bottom which wires attach to.


brad1138 said:


> "VT-231" is a military part #, there is no difference between VT-231 and the same model & year 6SN7. I do see the physical difference, in the metal rod in your VTs.
> 
> http://www.vacuumtubes.com/6sn7.html (scroll down to 6SN7GT Raytheon)
> 
> Mine are the same as the VT-231 "type 1", yours are the VT-231 "type 2".



As I understand it, you are 100% correct, the VT number is a military designation. That said, there were tubes produced strictly for the military, 6SN7W I believe is a designation given tubes made in the early 1950's to deal with low life issues in a particular weapons system. While discovered during the war, it apparently took a few years for tube manufacturers to address the problem. Aside from that one instance I don't believe that there were major differences between US made 6SN7s. They very likely painted military designations on tubes being sold to civilians not knowing for sure who the end user would end up being. OTOT, if they were presold they likely would paint them dependant upon the buyer. The boxes are often a good tell as to whether a tube was ever in the military system or not, although anyone can shove a tube into another tubes box to increase perceived value as long as the internals and date codes match. With 6SN7 Raytheons you want the ones that have a support in the bottom of the tube that looks like a T. The problem, IME, with these tubes is longevity, which may be why they didn't use that design for long, but they do sound awesome in series with good Ken-Rads or CBS/Hytrons as the Raytheon's tone is a tad off, but in series in the Freya one of the afore mentioned tubes will correct that.


----------



## jerick70

LouS said:


> That one sounds good, but the best ones that I have found have what looks like a T in the middle of the bottom which wires attach to.


I have to agree.  The VT-231 Raytheons with "Ts" sound the best to my ears in my listening too of the 6SN7s.  I think the "Ts" are the heating elements.



I also really like the Shu Guang CV181-Zs.  The Psvane CV181-TIIs are some of my favorite in the gain sockets right now.  Nice and detailed and have excellent impact and bass.


----------



## LouS

jerick70 said:


> I have to agree.  The VT-231 Raytheons with "Ts" sound the best to my ears in my listening too of the 6SN7s.  I think the "Ts" are the heating elements.
> 
> 
> 
> I also really like the Shu Guang CV181-Zs.  The Psvane CV181-TIIs are some of my favorite in the gain sockets right now.  Nice and detailed and have excellent impact and bass.



That's the tube. I am less impressed with the Treasures. Perhaps I should revisit them. They are okay with Ken Rads or CBS tubes because like the Raytheon's their tone is just not right. Strings or horns through them are just less than perfect, toss in some good Ken Rads or CBS tubes and you have the whole package, IMO.


----------



## jerick70

LouS said:


> That's the tube. I am less impressed with the Treasures. Perhaps I should revisit them. They are okay with Ken Rads or CBS tubes because like the Raytheon's their tone is just not right. Strings or horns through them are just less than perfect, toss in some good Ken Rads or CBS tubes and you have the whole package, IMO.


At first the treasures sounded terrible to me. After I let them burn in for about 50 hours they were much more enjoyable. The crusty crunciness went away and they were much more refined.


----------



## LouS

jerick70 said:


> At first the treasures sounded terrible to me. After I let them burn in for about 50 hours they were much more enjoyable. The crusty crunciness went away and they were much more refined.



I haven't really done a lot of serious listening lately to be honest. I have the Yggdrasil, and now that I have a cable between it and the Freya that isn't bright, I may start listening critically, but unless something's wrong, I end up just listening! I have 2 pairs of each version of Treasures, though the factory boxed T2 set is now on loan, I have another set where they bought a bunch and the factory sends a card with every tube, so they match sets up but since they are not in the single box, you can get them for less. That'll have to wait though as I am receiving a new set of cables tomorrow to test out. Once That's sorted out I'll get back to the Treasures. Honestly though, I don't think that they can compete with the Raytheons.


----------



## jerick70

LouS said:


> I haven't really done a lot of serious listening lately to be honest. I have the Yggdrasil, and now that I have a cable between it and the Freya that isn't bright, I may start listening critically, but unless something's wrong, I end up just listening! I have 2 pairs of each version of Treasures, though the factory boxed T2 set is now on loan, I have another set where they bought a bunch and the factory sends a card with every tube, so they match sets up but since they are not in the single box, you can get them for less. That'll have to wait though as I am receiving a new set of cables tomorrow to test out. Once That's sorted out I'll get back to the Treasures. Honestly though, I don't think that they can compete with the Raytheons.


IMO tube choice depends on what type of music / audio you are listening to. I like the Rayteons for Jazz, vocals, ect.  I use the treasures for EDM, detailed classical, ECT.  I like both tubes a lot just favoring the treasure TIIs right now.


----------



## LouS

jerick70 said:


> IMO tube choice depends on what type of music / audio you are listening to. I like the Rayteons for Jazz, vocals, ect.  I use the treasures for EDM, detailed classical, ECT.  I like both tubes a lot just favoring the treasure TIIs right now.


For Jazz you NEED some. Ken Rads or CBS tubes in there for the horns and strings. I listen more to big band, the standards that were standards before I was born. CBS tubes can be had for around 50 or so a pair, so called NOS for that or a bit more, try a set and get back to us. They help EITHER Treasures or Raytheons. Clapton Unplugged sounds like you are there in my system.


----------



## Synergist969

This just noted, on the Shiit Audio website, PRODUCTS : PREAMPS & CONTROLS : Freya: Tubes: Octal LISST (Solid State)

and within the "News" section of the site...("Octal LISST, New Tube Options | 02/5/18")

*"Octal LISST, New Tube Options*
Solid-State Tubes Now Available for Saga and Freya, New-Production Tung-Sol Optional

*February 5, 2018, Valencia, CA.* Responding to customer needs, Schiit Audio announced the availability of its LISST “solid state tube” design in octal form, to fit the Saga and Freya preamps directly. In addition, Schiit has added the option to choose new-production Tung-Sol brand 6SN7 tubes, instead of the NOS 6N8S.

“Octal LISST allows our customers to convert Saga and Freya into all solid-state preamplifiers,” said Jason Stoddard, Schiit’s Co-Founder. “So if you don’t want a tube preamp, you don’t need to settle for one—just choose LISST.”  "

...    ...


----------



## Ghosthouse (Feb 5, 2018)

Synergist969 said:


> This just noted, on the Shiit Audio website, PRODUCTS : PREAMPS & CONTROLS : Freya: Tubes: Octal LISST (Solid State)
> 
> and within the "News" section of the site...("Octal LISST, New Tube Options | 02/5/18")
> 
> ...


Thanks for the heads-up Synergist969.  Just visited the site.  Yes, indeed.  LISST for Freya now available.  $200 for a quad. 

Late arriving thought...I ASSume a quad of LISST "tubes" will give the same db of gain(13) from Freya  as actual glass vacuum tubes?  Thanks in advance for input on that question.


----------



## Synergist969

No problem Ghosthouse:

    As I had a bit of a challenge finding the location of the Octal LISST's on the site, for anyone who is unclear as to where to look, 

"Tom E" very promptly responded to my e-mail inquiry with:

*" Tom E* (Schiit Audio)

Feb 5, 10:08 PST

Hello,

Please visit  http://www.schiit.com/products/lisst-tubes and on the drop-down menu under "Type" select Octal. If you want quad Octal LISST tubes, the cost is $198."


----------



## Ghosthouse

FYI - 
Jason at Schiit confirms gain from LSTT tubes for Freya is the same as with glass 6SN7.  I believe this value is 13 db.


----------



## whatcomfalls (Feb 6, 2018)

brad1138 said:


> OK, well, I think I figured it out. I just bought a pair of these, hope I did good...  ($53 shipped)


If they're quiet, then you did good and got them for an excellent price


----------



## sportteo (Feb 6, 2018)

just bought :οne pair of sylvania jan 6 sn 7 wgta tubes for me at 60 eurohope to love them!
*http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/222825923802?ul_noapp=true*


----------



## LouS

sportteo said:


> just bought :οne pair of sylvania jan 6 sn 7 wgta tubes for me at 60 eurohope to love them!
> *http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/222825923802?ul_noapp=true*



Now you need a good pair of Ken Rads or CBS/Hytron tubes. Ken Rads are a little better.


----------



## brad1138

Synergist969 said:


> This just noted, on the Shiit Audio website, PRODUCTS : PREAMPS & CONTROLS : Freya: Tubes: Octal LISST (Solid State)
> 
> and within the "News" section of the site...("Octal LISST, New Tube Options | 02/5/18")
> 
> ...




Doesn't LISST kind of defeat the point in having a tube preamp in the 1st place?


----------



## LouS

brad1138 said:


> Doesn't LISST kind of defeat the point in having a tube preamp in the 1st place?



Some may have purchased it for the passive and unity gain functions, to each their own. I might think about it for passive/background listening, or if I want to use my system for TV audio.


----------



## brad1138 (Feb 7, 2018)

LouS said:


> Some may have purchased it for the passive and unity gain functions, to each their own. I might think about it for passive/background listening, or if I want to use my system for TV audio.




Yeah, fair point. I tend to think of the Freya as primarily a tube preamp. 

But now you are up to $900 for a SS preamp....


----------



## brad1138 (Feb 7, 2018)

Since the Freya has no HT pass-through, how are others getting around that?

I purchased a rather nice Dodocus RCA switch box to switch between the Freya and my Emotiva Prepro (into the amp running my main speakers). It works great, I can switch between preamps w/o powering every thing down. The Dodocus uses a high quality Elma rotary switch, I can tell no degradation in sound (I am sure there is on some level).

Since the Dodocus has 4 inputs, I hooked up a SYS to one of them. I use it for background listening instead of the Freya, so as to not put wear on the tubes.


----------



## LouS

brad1138 said:


> Yeah, fair point. I tend to think of the Freya as primarily a tube preamp.
> 
> But now you are up to $900 for a SS preamp....



I agree, I absolutely bought it to try 6SN7's, I have been using 6DJ8 Amperex tubes or 12AX7 Telefunkens for years.


----------



## motberg

LouS said:


> I agree, I absolutely bought it to try 6SN7's, I have been using 6DJ8 Amperex tubes or 12AX7 Telefunkens for years.


If you would not mind, could you comment on your perception of the general differences between a 6DJ8 preamp and 6SN7 preamp (assuming a similar design and build quality)..
TIA..


----------



## LouS

motberg said:


> If you would not mind, could you comment on your perception of the general differences between a 6DJ8 preamp and 6SN7 preamp (assuming a similar design and build quality)..
> TIA..



It's not quite that easy. There are far more manufacturers of 6DJ8 tubes for one thing. I can say that while I preferred Bugle Boys to all other 6DJ8's, running 1940's Raytheons in series with Ken Rads or CBS/Hytrons give you a soundstage and timbre far superior to the Bugle Boys. Honestly though, it never occurred to me to mix tubes before, so there may well be a 6DJ8 combination which sounds as good as the 6SN7 combo.


----------



## TheSnafu

Are LISST's ment to be used as a quad or is it (i presume it is) ok to use them also as a buffer/line tubes with 6SN7's. 

Now when LISST's are out i might give Freya another chance. First one i had had too loud noise floor with tubes no matter what tubes i tried. 
But if using one pair of LISST's and one pair tubes helps, i guess it's worth a shot (or to be lucky and get silent one in first place).

Good move from Schiit to give even more options how to use Freya


----------



## theveterans

With the LISST, one can turn a Freya into a Saga with just the Lisst pairs on the drive side.


----------



## Ghosthouse

Received a quad of LISSTs for Freya today.  Have them installed now.  They are stubby ...maybe 2/3rds the height of the new production EH 6SN7s I was running and about the same diameter.  Installed without benefit of socket savers to elevate them, they protrude ~1/2" above the top of the Freya case.  They are "weighty" for their size.  I was a little surprised at how warm they run, even at idle.  Right (F & R) gain pair definitely warmer than the left pair.  After playing 40 minutes or so it's possible to touch them but not for very long.  Sonically any differences from the EH 6SN7s are pretty subtle to my ear...possibly a little less high end extension (i.e., "air") but, then, stage depth seems more evident and better defined.  I'm thinking sound quality is like JFET mode but on steroids gain-wise.  Amount of gain provided seems comparable to the EHs - maybe slightly more (based on SPL at a given volume knob position).  They've only been installed and powered up for 3 hours now and seeing signal for not quite an hour.  I expect their character will become more evident with additional time in use.


----------



## LouS (Feb 8, 2018)

TheSnafu said:


> Are LISST's ment to be used as a quad or is it (i presume it is) ok to use them also as a buffer/line tubes with 6SN7's.
> 
> Now when LISST's are out i might give Freya another chance. First one i had had too loud noise floor with tubes no matter what tubes i tried.
> But if using one pair of LISST's and one pair tubes helps, i guess it's worth a shot (or to be lucky and get silent one in first place).
> ...



I have Hexfreds and such in my Stasis amp and I have had virtually no issues with tube noise in my Freya, there is another fellow here who has had tube noise issues, but I believe Herbie's tube dampeners helped him, so it was obvious that he just kept getting bad tubes. Has the guy you sold it to said anything? You have my curiosity in high gear!  If we were local, obviously not, I'd have loved to swap preamps and tubes in order to run things down, but you know my private jet has been on the fritz (screwed up), though fritz may be a colloquialism you are unfamiliar with.  Seriously though I would like to have been able to figure out what the problem was. BTW, as they are merely gain stages, just like tubes, you ought to be able to use them in conjunction with tubes, which could be really handy in running down noisy tubes!


----------



## Ghosthouse (Feb 9, 2018)

TheSnafu said:


> Are LISST's ment to be used as a quad or is it (i presume it is) ok to use them also as a buffer/line tubes with 6SN7's.
> 
> Now when LISST's are out i might give Freya another chance. First one i had had too loud noise floor with tubes no matter what tubes i tried.
> But if using one pair of LISST's and one pair tubes helps, i guess it's worth a shot (or to be lucky and get silent one in first place).
> ...



Hello Snafu - 
It is definitely possible to mix LISSTs with conventional tubes in Freya.  In fact, on the Schiit website when you go to order a Freya, there's a tube option box now and one of the options in the drop down is LISST w/TungSol.  

Sorry you had noise issues with your Freya.  A couple of the original tubes Schiit sent with my unit were noisy but Schiit replaced them very promptly when I asked.  This might have happened with a couple from the second set of tubes they sent.  Again, they were replaced quickly and ultimately I ended up with a quad that was quiet.  I purchased some other Russian NOS from Upscale and some NOS RCAs from Brent Jessee.  These have all been quiet as were a quad of new production EHs someone gave me.  I did initially think I had some noise when the unit was in "mute".  THAT turned out to be due to an after market wall wart power converter used on my streamer.  I replaced it and the unit has been absolutely dead quiet in all modes and settings ever since.  In tube mode with the EHs and with volume full up but nothing playing, I hear nothing at all with ear next to the drivers on 92 db sensitivity speakers. Relating all this simply to show Freya can be very quiet and say sorry to hear your experience was otherwise.  With the LISSTs now as an option, your risk of a noisy unit would be even further reduced.  Good luck.


----------



## hornytoad

LouS said:


> I have Hexfreds and such in my Stasis amp and I have had virtually no issues with tube noise in my Freya, there is another fellow here who has had tube noise issues, but I believe Herbie's tube dampeners helped him, so it was obvious that he just kept getting bad tubes. Has the guy you sold it to said anything? You have my curiosity in high gear!  If we were local, obviously not, I'd have loved to swap preamps and tubes in order to run things down, but you know my private jet has been on the fritz (screwed up), though fritz may be a colloquialism you are unfamiliar with.  Seriously though I would like to have been able to figure out what the problem was. BTW, as they are merely gain stages, just like tubes, you ought to be able to use them in conjunction with tubes, which could be really handy in running down noisy tubes!


I had some buzzing tubes (Treasure brand) and I tried cheap silcone rings with no luck . I then tried Herbie's tube dampeners and it seems to have eliminated the buzzing completely.


----------



## jerick70 (Feb 9, 2018)

LouS said:


> For Jazz you NEED some. Ken Rads or CBS tubes in there for the horns and strings. I listen more to big band, the standards that were standards before I was born. CBS tubes can be had for around 50 or so a pair, so called NOS for that or a bit more, try a set and get back to us. They help EITHER Treasures or Raytheons. Clapton Unplugged sounds like you are there in my system.


I just picked up a pair of Airpulse Model-1 monitors.  I have to run either my Shu Guang or Psvane with them or all of the sweet imaging and precise instrument placement goes away.  The Shu Guang sound the best with these all around.

By the by... I'm really impressed with the Airpulse Model-1s.  I tried them on a recommendation from a friend.  Wasn't expecting much.  A big ? for me was the Class D amplification with horn loaded tweeters.  Had terrible Klipsch sibilance and smear in my mind.  Very glad I tried them.  They are the best active monitors I've tried to date.  Airy, precise placement, serious thump, micro detail.  All this with no fatigue.  Gotta say these are great.


----------



## LouS

jerick70 said:


> I just picked up a pair of Airpulse Model-1 monitors.  I have to run either my Shu Guang or Psvane with them or all of the sweet imaging and precise instrument placement goes away.  The Shu Guang sound the best with these all around.
> 
> By the by... I'm really impressed with the Airpulse Model-1s.  I tried them on a recommendation from a friend.  Wasn't expecting much.  A big ? for me was the Class D amplification with horn loaded tweeters.  Had terrible Klipsch sibilance and smear in my mind.  Very glad I tried them.  They are the best active monitors I've tried to date.  Airy, precise placement, serious thump, micro detail.  All this with no fatigue.  Gotta say these are great.



I have both T1's and T2's. The OLD Raytheons with the T looking structure in the bottom wiring section smokes them for soundstage, but Treasures or Raytheons need a pair of Ken Rads to get the timbre straight. Ken Rads without Raytheons or Treasures suck because they DON'T image, but combined, it's magic, by a pair and see.


----------



## LouS

jerick70 said:


> I just picked up a pair of Airpulse Model-1 monitors.  I have to run either my Shu Guang or Psvane with them or all of the sweet imaging and precise instrument placement goes away.  The Shu Guang sound the best with these all around.
> 
> By the by... I'm really impressed with the Airpulse Model-1s.  I tried them on a recommendation from a friend.  Wasn't expecting much.  A big ? for me was the Class D amplification with horn loaded tweeters.  Had terrible Klipsch sibilance and smear in my mind.  Very glad I tried them.  They are the best active monitors I've tried to date.  Airy, precise placement, serious thump, micro detail.  All this with no fatigue.  Gotta say these are great.



I just stuck my T2's back in. The Raytheons are better, but not as much better as I had thought. You do need the Ken Rads, and someday you may want to get some Raytheons, they are a decided improvement.


----------



## jerick70

LouS said:


> I just stuck my T2's back in. The Raytheons are better, but not as much better as I had thought. You do need the Ken Rads, and someday you may want to get some Raytheons, they are a decided improvement.


I have a pair of Raytheons already.  Just missing the Ken Rads.  The problem is finding them from a reliable source.


----------



## LouS (Feb 13, 2018)

jerick70 said:


> I have a pair of Raytheons already.  Just missing the Ken Rads.  The problem is finding them from a reliable source.



Don't I know!

http://vintagetubeservices.com/octal-tubes/

Or Upscale Audio. I had a problem with Upscale, but they said they didn't get an email, who knows. Use PayPal just in case though.


----------



## eschell27

Decided to try a pair of Octal LISST to try in the output stage of Freya (normally keep Sylvania VT-231 in output stage as they seem to be a really great/transparent tube for output) and from my initial listening this evening it seems like a great combo... what ever tube being used in the gain stage seems to impart more of it's sonic traits on the sound signature Freya adds (which is the primary reason i wanted to try out a tube preamp with my solid state amp)

Was just curious if any of you guys have started playing around with the LISST and different combos...curious to hear some impressions.


----------



## DoubleIPA

eschell27 said:


> Decided to try a pair of Octal LISST to try in the output stage of Freya (normally keep Sylvania VT-231 in output stage as they seem to be a really great/transparent tube for output) and from my initial listening this evening it seems like a great combo... what ever tube being used in the gain stage seems to impart more of it's sonic traits on the sound signature Freya adds (which is the primary reason i wanted to try out a tube preamp with my solid state amp)
> 
> Was just curious if any of you guys have started playing around with the LISST and different combos...curious to hear some impressions.


That sounds like a really interesting combination. Do you have different types of tubes to try wit the LISSTs?


----------



## LouS

Thought I'd post a picture of the Raytheon structure to look for. It looks like there is a T structure in the bottom.


----------



## eschell27

DoubleIPA said:


> That sounds like a really interesting combination. Do you have different types of tubes to try wit the LISSTs?



Using the LISST in output stage, my usual gain stage tubes are ken rad vt231 staggered plates, the raytheon vt231 T, sylvania 6sn7gt, and rca vt231 grey glass. So far ive really only listened to the raytheons and i feel that having the lisst in output it really accentuates the gain tubes even more than using sylvania vt231's as output. Still need some more listening time but i think i like them in this configuration.


----------



## brad1138

LouS said:


> Thought I'd post a picture of the Raytheon structure to look for. It looks like there is a T structure in the bottom.



From what I read, the rectangular plates were less desirable than the "flat" plates. Hard to tell for sure from your pic, but it looks like rectangular.


----------



## LouS

brad1138 said:


> From what I read, the rectangular plates were less desirable than the "flat" plates. Hard to tell for sure from your pic, but it looks like rectangular.



True, I was referencing the T. Not sure about the plates, I don't believe that I have heard the angled plates with the T yet, if I find a pair I may buy them. I snagged this from ePay, as I like to call it, because it was a clear shot of the T.


----------



## Ghosthouse (Feb 14, 2018)

Ghosthouse said:


> Received a quad of LISSTs for Freya today.  Have them installed now.  They are stubby ...maybe 2/3rds the height of the new production EH 6SN7s I was running and about the same diameter.  Installed without benefit of socket savers to elevate them, they protrude ~1/2" above the top of the Freya case.  They are "weighty" for their size.  I was a little surprised at how warm they run, even at idle.  Right (F & R) gain pair definitely warmer than the left pair.  After playing 40 minutes or so it's possible to touch them but not for very long.  Sonically any differences from the EH 6SN7s are pretty subtle to my ear...possibly a little less high end extension (i.e., "air") but, then, stage depth seems more evident and better defined.  I'm thinking sound quality is like JFET mode but on steroids gain-wise.  Amount of gain provided seems comparable to the EHs - maybe slightly more (based on SPL at a given volume knob position).  They've only been installed and powered up for 3 hours now and seeing signal for not quite an hour.  I expect their character will become more evident with additional time in use.



To anyone interested...
The LISSTs are on their way back to Schiit.  During the second day of use they started producing noise in the right channel.  No signal being applied and Freya in mute mode.  Something getting through that shouldn't have.  Sounded like a short and, actually, a lot like a conventional tube going bad.  Shut things down.  Pulled the LISSTs.  Installed a quad of conventional glass tubes.  Powered back up.  Everything okay...no damage done.  Given the long expected service life of 6SN7s in Freya and their affordability, I personally don't see an advantage to LISST.  Maybe if they ran cool...but they don't.

By the way, Laura in Schiit customer service was very quick to respond to my email about the problem and provided a prepaid FEDEX label for the return.


----------



## hornytoad

So I have been using the Freya for a while . I have treasure tubes with Herbie tube dampeners because I had some buzzing noises . 
I have been playing music for weeks at a low steady volume . I cranked it up today for about 20 minutes and when I turned the volume down to my lower level I noticed some of the buzzing noise I haven’t heard in weeks . Just slightly though . 
So what does that tell me ?


----------



## US Blues

I've been running my Freya with a quad of LISST's since last week. Sounds very fine, and provides ample gain for my Vidar's and subs.


----------



## Ghosthouse

US Blues said:


> I've been running my Freya with a quad of LISST's since last week. Sounds very fine, and provides ample gain for my Vidar's and subs.



Glad the LISSTs are working out for you.  My bad luck, I guess.  Had they not started generating that noise, I probably would have kept them but now that they are gone, not missing them.  Only need the gain from tube-mode with one amp.  With the other two, I've been very happy using Freya in JFET mode.  It's not a problem for me to re-install 6SN7s when using the F7.  I do plan on getting some socket savers when they are back in stock at Parts Connexion.  Again, good luck to you.


----------



## US Blues

Ghosthouse said:


> Glad the LISSTs are working out for you.  My bad luck, I guess.  Had they not started generating that noise, I probably would have kept them but now that they are gone, not missing them.  Only need the gain from tube-mode with one amp.  With the other two, I've been very happy using Freya in JFET mode.  It's not a problem for me to re-install 6SN7s when using the F7.  I do plan on getting some socket savers when they are back in stock at Parts Connexion.  Again, good luck to you.



I'm sorry to hear that you got a bum LISST. Freya sounds great in JFET mode, and can be magical with the right tubes, as this thread attests. Enjoy!


----------



## mtmercer

Does anyone know if the Freya still convert single ended RCA inputs to balanced differential outputs while using the tube gain stage with 4x OCTAL LISST installed?

I am thinking about having the Chord Qutest as my DAC but I want it to be balanced going into my balanced HP amp while losing as little quality as possible.


----------



## purehifi192

mtmercer said:


> Does anyone know if the Freya still convert single ended RCA inputs to balanced differential outputs while using the tube gain stage with 4x OCTAL LISST installed?
> 
> I am thinking about having the Chord Qutest as my DAC but I want it to be balanced going into my balanced HP amp while losing as little quality as possible.


Answer should most certainly be yes, but you may want to ask Jason directly on his thread or email Schiit directly.


----------



## mtmercer

purehifi192 said:


> Answer should most certainly be yes, but you may want to ask Jason directly on his thread or email Schiit directly.



Thanks!  I will email Schiit and advise if they confirm.


----------



## deserat

Started off stock tubes. They got noisy very fast. Put in matched quad of New Tung-Sol, that was better, rolled  a matched pair of CBS/Hytrons into gain stage, sound got better but the tubes were very noisy. Got a matched pair of the Zaytrons ( rebranded CBS/Hytrons ) from upscale... moved the noisy 5692's into buffer stage and put the new 5692's into gain.... oh my. Oh my oh my oh my - now wishing I'da done a matched quad.  Anyway, moral of story is:

Stock Russians are garbage,  Tung Sols are ok. Then there is a big gap, and then there is the 5692's. My chain?  Yggy > Freya > Vidar > Kef LS50.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

For cheap replacements that are decent, try the EH6sn7. I think they're under $100 for 4.

Might not play well with a bright rig but should be decent for neutral and warm chains. Specially R2R/ladder chains..


----------



## Ghosthouse

Soundsgoodtome said:


> For cheap replacements that are decent, try the EH6sn7. I think they're under $100 for 4.
> 
> Might not play well with a bright rig but should be decent for neutral and warm chains. Specially R2R/ladder chains..



+1 for Soundsgoodtome comments about the EH 6SN7s.  They are neutral and dead silent in a chain consisting of...

Aries Mini>>Schitt Eitr>>Gungnir MB>>Freya>>various power amps>>Prelude Plus or Totem Forest speakers


----------



## mtmercer

mtmercer said:


> Thanks!  I will email Schiit and advise if they confirm.



Schitt responded that the Freya OCTAL LISST tubes do convert single ended RCA inputs to balanced differential outputs like traditional tubes.

Quoted question "Hello. Does the Freya still convert single ended RCA inputs to balanced differential outputs while using the tube gain stage with OCTAL LISST installed?"
Quoted response "Yes it does. The LISST are solid state tube equivalents so they operate functionally just like a regular tube."


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

Odd question. Do the LISST tubes get hot?


----------



## purehifi192

Soundsgoodtome said:


> Odd question. Do the LISST tubes get hot?


Wouldn't say hot, but they do get warm.  I had to wait maybe 10-15 min before I was able to pull them out after having my Freya on for half of the day on Saturday w/ four LISST.


----------



## Ghosthouse (Feb 26, 2018)

Soundsgoodtome said:


> Odd question. Do the LISST tubes get hot?



Not an odd question, I don't think.  Mostly agree with purehifi...maybe not as hot as conventional glass 6SN7s, but hot is a better descriptor in my experience than calling them "very warm"!
Their operating temp was a bit of a surprise to me.  Along with the noise that eventually developed, their heat contributed to a decision to return them for refund and not for replacement.  Maybe the heat I experienced had something to do with a defect...don't know.


----------



## winders

purehifi192 said:


> Wouldn't say hot, but they do get warm.  I had to wait maybe 10-15 min before I was able to pull them out after having my Freya on for half of the day on Saturday w/ four LISST.



If the 6SN7 LISST tubes are so warm that you have to let them cool off for 10 to 15 minutes to pull them out, they are by definition "hot".


----------



## purehifi192

winders said:


> If the 6SN7 LISST tubes are so warm that you have to let them cool off for 10 to 15 minutes to pull them out, they are by definition "hot".


Good point.  Relative to the mechanical 6sn7 tubes I have, the LISSTs run cooler and that's what I was trying to convey.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome (Feb 26, 2018)

I do the same with my tubes, they actually get much cooler after 5m.
So are you saying that the LISST operate warmer than a tube?! So much for being able to squeeze the freya in a tight spot.



purehifi192 said:


> Wouldn't say hot, but they do get warm.  I had to wait maybe 10-15 min before I was able to pull them out after having my Freya on for half of the day on Saturday w/ four LISST.



----------------



purehifi192 said:


> Good point.  Relative to the mechanical 6sn7 tubes I have, the LISSTs run cooler and that's what I was trying to convey.



Oh ok. Maybe I can get away with 2 LISST and 2 tubes with the Freya in an entertainment stand with little clearance where the Freya would sit.

Another question, with a combination of LISST and tubes, do you put the LISST in the left column or right column (power)?


----------



## purehifi192

Soundsgoodtome said:


> I do the same with my tubes, they actually get much cooler after 5m.
> So are you saying that the LISST operate warmer than a tube?! So much for being able to squeeze the freya in a tight spot.


They run cooler than mechanical tubes and you can touch the LISST without burning your hand, but I wouldn't/didn't want to pull them out immediately after turning off my Freya till they cooled down a bit.


----------



## Synergist969

The LISST's get warm/hot to the touch, but certainly no where near the "skin-blistering/frying(?)" temperature of the glass tubes...I did not attempt to measure the temperatures generated by either tube type however...


----------



## Synergist969

Ghosthouse said:


> To anyone interested...
> The LISSTs are on their way back to Schiit.  During the second day of use they started producing noise in the right channel.  No signal being applied and Freya in mute mode.  Something getting through that shouldn't have.  Sounded like a short and, actually, a lot like a conventional tube going bad.  Shut things down.  Pulled the LISSTs.  Installed a quad of conventional glass tubes.  Powered back up.  Everything okay...no damage done.  Given the long expected service life of 6SN7s in Freya and their affordability, I personally don't see an advantage to LISST.  Maybe if they ran cool...but they don't.
> 
> By the way, Laura in Schiit customer service was very quick to respond to my email about the problem and provided a prepaid FEDEX label for the return.



I guess I was a fortune one...my LISST's seem to be OK...though when I thought to remove one right after installing it, it came out without the alignment/center post, so, I guess it is LISST's forever...lol...

I concur that relative to the new production Tung Sol's I was using, the LISST's are a bit softer/smoother in the high frequencies...and the bass sounds to me to be appreciably more solid...even relative to the "JFET mode", so, who knows, YMMV...however, in my system, the slightly more damped highs sound better to MY ears...in MY system...in MY home...lol...

I am curious about what others hear, and feel about the LISST's in their systems...?...


----------



## kazsud

I put my Freya up for sale w/ a new pair of current production Tung Sols if anyone is interested.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/schiit-freya-w-new-tung-sols.872948/


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## kazsud

Tube'd monitor setups are one of my favorites. The tubes that came w/ mine had all kinds of microphonics, but when I got the new Tung Sols it made me a happy boy.

I still need to hear how Genelecs sound....


----------



## hornytoad

kazsud said:


> Tube'd monitor setups are one of my favorites. The tubes that came w/ mine had all kinds of microphonics, but when I got the new Tung Sols it made me a happy boy.
> 
> I still need to hear how Genelecs sound....


Genelec’s are treble forward , execellent mid and high range , little light on bass and low end . 
Some may have a different opinion . 
The treble sparkles on their speakers , some may not like that.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome (Feb 28, 2018)

These KenRad vt231 black bottles really bring a visceral bass to the system via Freya. Considerably more than JFet and other tubes I've heard. This without bleeding into the mids/highs.

I did lose a little bit of euphonics to the mids/highs over the EH 6sn7gt which I really enjoy in jazz. I may swap the tubes and put the EH as drivers and see how much bass I retain while adding tube syrup goodness.


----------



## guitarforlife (Feb 28, 2018)

Hello all. This is my first post here. I have been a lurker for some time. I have read all about the freya preamp here. I have a few things I would like to add. Hope it helps anyone that is curious about it.
First I have two systems. I run the saga in one and the freya in another.

That being said. I will describe my system with the Freya.
I run a Loki as well with this and a modi for phono. They are awesome as well. I using a Emotvia XPA-2 amp running a pair of Magenpan 1.7 speakers with a SVS sub out of the second out put from the freya.
I am using a Macintosh CD player along with a Marantz CD player and a Rega RP3 turntable.

Like so many I have read on here I had a noisy static sound come and go at times. Very annoying during quiet passages or in-between songs. The Saga NEVER has done this.
I tested everything replaced every cable and speaker wire. I then started likes many here to rearrange the tubes. That change the noise from the left to right speaker.
I then ordered new tung sol 6sn7 tubes a matched quartet from tube depot. I replace the stock tubes. And guess what all is great.

The Saga on the other hand has been fine since the minuet I hooked it up. That is running a 1962 Dynaco ST-70 amp again with a Loki and a Modi. I'm using a Macintosh CD player along with a Oppo and a Pioneer 707 Reel to reel deck and a kenwood turn table. Elac speakers and a SVS sub out the second output on the Saga. This is a fantastic system. I did replace the stock tube in the saga with a NOS Raytheon tube.

Thanks for you time, hope this was helpful I have read so many post with strange noise issues and I know it is time consuming to trouble shoot at times. For me new tubes did the trick.
As far as the Schiit gear I have I love it all. It has been fantastic and great sounding. Trust me I have a ton of gear on shelves as "Spares" But their stuff is great.


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## Soundsgoodtome (Feb 28, 2018)

The stock tubes on the Freya are really there to just get people running. I don't think you can fire up the Freya without tubes in the socket... With that said every owner should at least reach for a quad set of EH 6sn7gt. Cheap and miles ahead stock.

The only time I'd even run stock tubes would be if i just strictly used passive or jfet..

---------------------



jseymour said:


> You can use the Freya without tubes if you stay in passive or JFET mode.


Didn't know this! What happens if you accidentally push the remote or selector wrong and it goes into tube mode? Catastrophic consequences?


----------



## jseymour

You can use the Freya without tubes if you stay in passive or JFET mode.


----------



## LouS

Soundsgoodtome said:


> These KenRad vt231 black bottles really bring a visceral bass to the system via Freya. Considerably more than JFet and other tubes I've heard. This without bleeding into the mids/highs.
> 
> I did lose a little bit of euphonics to the mids/highs over the EH 6sn7gt which I really enjoy in jazz. I may swap the tubes and put the EH as drivers and see how much bass I retain while adding tube syrup goodness.



Oddly, it seems to me that the slightly newer Ken-Rads sound better than the black ones, BUT, I have only 1 set of the black ones, so that's a pretty small sample. I would recommend Treasure II's, or Raytheons as your second set of tubes, they both immage exceptionally well. With the Ken-Rads that I have, imaging is not their forte, truth in tone/timbre and bass are, so mixing and matching is, IME, the way to so. Also, after trying out insanely expensive cables, the inexpensive Signal Silver Resolutions are the best sounding in my system.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

LouS said:


> Oddly, it seems to me that the slightly newer Ken-Rads sound better than the black ones, BUT, I have only 1 set of the black ones, so that's a pretty small sample.



I read the opposite on another forum, member stating that the black glass versions sound better than the clear ones by a level or two. I also read another member not hearing a difference between the black bottles and clear. Of course as with things audio things react differently in different systems and other various factors. I do want to try a set of clear Ken-Rads to hear the differences myself but maybe on the back end of the trip. I have a set of Sylvania VT231 Bad Boys coming in next Monday. I was looking at the Raytheons as well, maybe I'll grab a pair of those soon. I'd like the bottom end of the KenRad VT231 but a sweet mid and a smooth/clean treble. 

I have a set of PSVANE CV181-TII, are these the so called Treasure 2s? They're nice tubes but I feel a little resolution is lost in the syrup with them.


----------



## LouS

Soundsgoodtome said:


> I read the opposite on another forum, member stating that the black glass versions sound better than the clear ones by a level or two. I also read another member not hearing a difference between the black bottles and clear. Of course as with things audio things react differently in different systems and other various factors. I do want to try a set of clear Ken-Rads to hear the differences myself but maybe on the back end of the trip. I have a set of Sylvania VT231 Bad Boys coming in next Monday. I was looking at the Raytheons as well, maybe I'll grab a pair of those soon. I'd like the bottom end of the KenRad VT231 but a sweet mid and a smooth/clean treble.
> 
> I have a set of PSVANE CV181-TII, are these the so called Treasure 2s? They're nice tubes but I feel a little resolution is lost in the syrup with them.



That's one reason that I mentioned my black samples are limited. Could be they are not the best representation of the type. Yes, those are T IIs. I like the older Raytheons better, but they are difficult to find, the 50's and later versions are not as musical. I got a set with the T in the bottom but not with the flat plates, and I haven't had a chance to to be truly critical with them, but I think they too sound pretty good.


----------



## Synergist969 (Mar 2, 2018)

Though I AM aware that this "Schiit Freya Impressions and Tube Rolling Thread" has evolved primarily toward the "Tube Rolling" end of things...AND, as such...the Octal LISST's developed/manufactured for the Freya are NOT "Tubes" per se...HOWEVER, I would still love to hear the impressions from others who have installed/used the Octal LISST's with their Freya in their audio systems.

  I have been pleased with mine thus far, (ordered them the same day, (if not hour that they were made available...lol...))...MY impression of them in my system is quite positive, for several reasons...

My audio chain:Schiit Audio Yggdrasil --> Freya --> Marchand Active X-over, (Fr. 60Hz./ 24 dB/Oct.linkwitz-riley), --> Aragon 4004 amp. --> Lipinski L-707 monitors + SVS PC13-Ultra pr.)

With my audio system/my ears, with the stock, OR matched quad of the Tung Sol New Production tubes installed, I found that it created a bit too much high frequency emphasis, (as if I was "teething on the stage-edge" at a concert hall), rather than sitting back 10+ seat rows...(I have always preferred that mid-hall, "organic" sound full of hall "bloom"/resonance")...

With the quad of Octal LISST's installed, I found that the high frequency brightness was ameliorated, (without "tossing out the baby with the bathwater")...so that the the mid-range/lower-midrange came to the fore...while still allowing for the reverberation tails to provide that natural hall sound...

In addition, even relative to the "Solid-State"/JFET operation mode, I also get the impression that the bass/deep-base is slightly more solid/powerful...though I am not sure exactly why...greater gain of the Octal LISST's over the JFET operation mode...?...(Perhaps it is simply "wishful-perception/mis-perception" on my end...lol...), as there is nothing like really deep bass reproduction to convey the impression of performance venue size...(ain't psycho-acoustics fun?)...    ...lol...

Regardless of MY perceptions of MY system, I would like to hear from others regarding THEIR impressions...


----------



## US Blues

Synergist969 said:


> Though I AM aware that this "Schiit Freya Impressions and Tube Rolling Thread" has evolved primarily toward the "Tube Rolling" end of things...AND, as such...the Octal LISST's developed/manufactured for the Freya are NOT "Tubes" per se...HOWEVER, I would still love to hear the impressions from others who have installed/used the Octal LISST's with their Freya in their audio systems.
> 
> I have been pleased with mine thus far, (ordered them the same day, (if not hour that they were made available...lol...))...MY impression of them in my system is quite positive, for several reasons...
> 
> ...



I also went full LISST and am very happy with the result. Like you I prefer the "organic" quality they bring, more so than JFET mode. And the bass from Yggy 2 is on full display- Moffat Bass was the term used when Yggy first came out. And for me personally the ability to fully utilize Freya without tube nervosa makes me happy. My ears, my system, etc.

PS- The 24/96 version of the Grateful Dead's _American Beauty _is sounding sweeter this morning than I have ever heard before.


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## Fatmiddleagedgeek (Mar 3, 2018)

Greetings all, first post.

I’ve been looking at a tube integrated but became curious about separates.

As I’ve read over the course of this thread it seems like there are less problems with Freya vs when they were released. So I wanted to ask a few questions about typical separates as they relate to Schiit’s offerings.

1. Freya is known to get hot, is this common with other preamps?

2. Ordering with the optional Tung Sols is giving good results right out of the box?

I think that’s all I have right now. Freya would be my intro to tubes and also separates so anyone who made that leap can pass on tips and “good to knows” I’d appreciate it.

Edit: my only source will be vinyl through a Lounge LCR MKIII


----------



## Mondo Caliente (Mar 4, 2018)

The Freya (had mine since late last year) does get a little warm but interestingly not at the tubes (except the actual tubes themselves of course, and hey…vent holes) but over the transformers. Warm, so I don't stack anything on it. I've had good luck with the Freya being a quiet and great sounding preamp that works well with my single ended tube amp and efficient speakers, and I'm pretty sensitive to hum and noise…the Freya passes both tests with aplomb. I did put a quad of new Tung Sols in it and they sound great (the stock tubes weren't noisy and work fine, just "meh" sounding, but no microphonic noise), but the addition of a set of NOS Sylvania 6SN7GTB "chrome domes" in the input sockets are killer…highly recommended, and still relatively inexpensive…they've lifted the little Freya up to another sonic level altogether, and now I have an extra set of Tung Sols.


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## Ghosthouse (Mar 4, 2018)

Fatmiddleagedgeek said:


> Greetings all, first post.
> 
> I’ve been looking at a tube integrated but became curious about separates.
> 
> ...


Hello - I've had the Freya since Jan 2017, so around 15 months now.  I had NO problems with Freya from day 1 other than a couple of the stock tubes being noisy.  Schiit quickly replaced those for me.  Based on my experience with another preamp (2-6H30; 1-EZ80) Freya does NOT run especially hot even with tubes installed.  With no tubes installed (I listen mainly in JFET mode) it is remarkably cool running even given that I leave mine on 24/7.  With NOS RCAs in the gain stage and Upscale NOS Russians in buffer or a quad of new production EH 6SN7s installed, the Freya is dead silent even with nothing playing and volume cranked all the way up (92 db speakers).  Haven't tried new production TungSols so can't comment on those.  In JFET and even with the stock Russian 6SN7s, Freya, compared to the tube pre I had before that had a list price 3-4x what Freya cost, seemed more refined...more detail yet less harsh, relaxed and easy to listen to.  A great value, I think.  Early, early on I thought I was getting some odd warbling when in passive mode or in mute.  Turns out it was the power supply for another device.  Replaced that power supply and no noise at all in my system since.


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## Fatmiddleagedgeek

Ghosthouse said:


> Hello - I've had the Freya since Jan 2017, so around 15 months now.  I had NO problems with Freya from day 1 other than a couple of the stock tubes being noisy.  Schiit quickly replaced those for me.  Based on my experience with another preamp (2-6H30; 1-EZ80) Freya does NOT run especially hot even with tubes installed.  With no tubes installed (I listen mainly in JFET mode) it is remarkably cool running even given that I leave mine on 24/7.  With NOS RCAs in the gain stage and Upscale NOS Russians in buffer or a quad of new production EH 6SN7s installed, the Freya is dead silent even with nothing playing and volume cranked all the way up (92 db speakers).  Haven't tried new production TungSols so can't comment on those.  In JFET and even with the stock Russian 6SN7s, Freya, compared to the tube pre I had before that had a list price 3-4x what Freya cost, seemed more refined...more detail yet less harsh, relaxed and easy to listen to.  A great value, I think.  Early, early on I thought I was getting some odd warbling when in passive mode or in mute.  Turns out it was the power supply for another device.  Replaced that power supply and no noise at all in my system since.


Thanks. I know that in forums one typically only reads complaints so usually things tip negative.

I’m curious to know why the tube stage is so boosted. Seems like it exposes tubes that aren’t perfect but not for any real sonic gain. Thoughts? Also are you running Vidar with the Freya?


----------



## Ghosthouse

Fatmiddleagedgeek said:


> Thanks. I know that in forums one typically only reads complaints so usually things tip negative.
> 
> I’m curious to know why the tube stage is so boosted. Seems like it exposes tubes that aren’t perfect but not for any real sonic gain. Thoughts? Also are you running Vidar with the Freya?





Fatmiddleagedgeek said:


> Thanks. I know that in forums one typically only reads complaints so usually things tip negative.
> 
> I’m curious to know why the tube stage is so boosted. Seems like it exposes tubes that aren’t perfect but not for any real sonic gain. Thoughts? Also are you running Vidar with the Freya?


Sorry - can't tell you what specific reasoning led to the 13 db gain associated with tube mode.  However, it does come in handy for listening to lower voltage sources (e.g., phono pre) AND when using it with a low power (20 wpc) First Watt F7 amp.  I think this would also be the case for folks running SET tube amps.  Provides flexibility, I would say.  I don't run Vidar but do use Freya with both the F7 and a Merrill Audio Taranis....even use it with a Hegel H200...an integrated that can be operated as a power amp.  The input options on the Freya are a little more extensive than the Hegel and allows amps to be switched without having to disconnect and reconnect all my sources.  Hope this is helpful.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome (Mar 4, 2018)

Got a set of NOS Syl VT231 "Bad Boys" (2-hole) in, very promising. Seller from Texas on Ebay said give them some time to open up but so far it's got a great balance of tube syrup, clarity, and bass that actually pushes these KEF 105.2. Not as much as the Ken-Rad VT231 black bottles, those were a bass delight but enough to really get the bass line on jazz pieces out. Only down side the bad boys are picking up taps/movement on my stand.

What I'm also finding is the EH 6n7gt are perfect for the other pair that are just there and influence maybe...10% of the sound? Although 4 EH tubes isn't bad either, a little on the bright/neutral side but not by any damaging amount.


----------



## Mondo Caliente (Mar 4, 2018)

My current main amp is a Dennis Had "Inspire" Firebottle SEP (pentode instead of the triode he's currently producing for his little Ebay biz) , and it likes to be driven it seems, meaning the Freya passive and FET outputs are relatively low-ish gain to get the Had amp going, although with efficient speakers (mine are the allegedly 99db Klipsch Heresy IIIs) you can still use those settings although they hit their max before the Had does.…if nothing else those setting are useful just to see how the tubes are doing with careful "finger on the fader" level surprise control. Without the hotter tube gain this preamp wouldn't be as useful with the Had amp, and the preamp it replaced was a solid state Kavent S-33 (re badged Vincent) that has loads of gain and worked fine with the Had amp. I prefer the micro detail available with the tube preamp though, and the Freya in tube mode delivers plenty of tube mojo.


----------



## Fatmiddleagedgeek

Ghosthouse said:


> Sorry - can't tell you what specific reasoning led to the 13 db gain associated with tube mode.  However, it does come in handy for listening to lower voltage sources (e.g., phono pre) AND when using it with a low power (20 wpc) First Watt F7 amp.  I think this would also be the case for folks running SET tube amps.  Provides flexibility, I would say.  I don't run Vidar but do use Freya with both the F7 and a Merrill Audio Taranis....even use it with a Hegel H200...an integrated that can be operated as a power amp.  The input options on the Freya are a little more extensive than the Hegel and allows amps to be switched without having to disconnect and reconnect all my sources.  Hope this is helpful.


Thanks. This is good info.

I don’t get but maybe 2 hours a week to spin a few sides so I don’t want to get into something that’s a project. I’d rather be listening than trouble shooting and having to buy better feet and tubes and tube rings and tube spacers all so I can just have a good sound. 

I’m admittedly afraid of what I’ve read thus far. I’m still interested though.


----------



## Ghosthouse

Fatmiddleagedgeek said:


> Thanks. This is good info.
> 
> I don’t get but maybe 2 hours a week to spin a few sides so I don’t want to get into something that’s a project. I’d rather be listening than trouble shooting and having to buy better feet and tubes and tube rings and tube spacers all so I can just have a good sound.
> 
> I’m admittedly afraid of what I’ve read thus far. I’m still interested though.


In my O-pinion, the Freya is pretty low maintenance.  You don't HAVE to do all the tweaks to get decent sound from it.  You don't even have to run tubes.  I have tubes but honestly, for most listening, don't have them installed.  Just use the JFET buffer mode.  That simplifies life a good deal and I'm extremely happy with SQ in JFET mode (might be in the minority re my "indifference" to tubes).  If you were to get one, do take advantage of the balanced input and output options assuming your associated gear is balanced.  Also (I assume you know this) Schiit does provide for a 15 day in-home audition.  Money back less 5% restocking if you don't keep it.  I wish it were longer but put signal through it 24/7 for 10 days (I use th XLO burn in CD) and that should be enough time to reveal it's full character.  You aren't doing much listening right now (maybe you hope to spend more time in the future??) anyway, maybe an integrated would be a more practical option???  though I suspect Freya/Vidar would be killer and a bargain, to boot.


----------



## Fatmiddleagedgeek

Ghosthouse said:


> In my O-pinion, the Freya is pretty low maintenance.  You don't HAVE to do all the tweaks to get decent sound from it.  You don't even have to run tubes.  I have tubes but honestly, for most listening, don't have them installed.  Just use the JFET buffer mode.  That simplifies life a good deal and I'm extremely happy with SQ in JFET mode (might be in the minority re my "indifference" to tubes).  If you were to get one, do take advantage of the balanced input and output options assuming your associated gear is balanced.  Also (I assume you know this) Schiit does provide for a 15 day in-home audition.  Money back less 5% restocking if you don't keep it.  I wish it were longer but put signal through it 24/7 for 10 days (I use th XLO burn in CD) and that should be enough time to reveal it's full character.  You aren't doing much listening right now (maybe you hope to spend more time in the future??) anyway, maybe an integrated would be a more practical option???  though I suspect Freya/Vidar would be killer and a bargain, to boot.



I have no balanced gear and I have a tube integrated I’m super interested in.  I will have more time in the future but I’m a single parent to a special needs child and so my days are long.

The Freya+Vidar combo ($1500) would be less than the tube integrated I’m looking at ($2000 used / $2500 new) so it’d be great to save a little money. I’m excited to do some tube rolling. Having solid state power and slam with a tube front end is really appealing.

I know I can send it back for a small loss, it’s just something I hope not to have to deal with. Inevitably it would mean time with no system for a while. Not something I’d be happy about. I’d be happy to pay extra to have one tested first before shipping.

Thanks again.


----------



## Ghosthouse

Fatmiddleagedgeek said:


> I have no balanced gear and I have a tube integrated I’m super interested in.  I will have more time in the future but I’m a single parent to a special needs child and so my days are long.
> 
> The Freya+Vidar combo ($1500) would be less than the tube integrated I’m looking at ($2000 used / $2500 new) so it’d be great to save a little money. I’m excited to do some tube rolling. Having solid state power and slam with a tube front end is really appealing.
> 
> ...


Wow...that is a heavy load you carry.  Sorry to hear about it.  Hope you will continue to find the strength you need.  Providence is always a reliable source.  As far as your audio decisions, I think I've pretty much exhausted my little store of knowledge.  No idea which option might sound better to you.  One parting thought though...and that is I think Schiit's value exceeds their pricing...which is to say a $1500 Freya/Vidar combo might well be the sonic equivalent of a $3-5K (maybe more) rig from more "conventional" manufacturers.  Again, that's just my O-pinion.  Good luck with your purchase.


----------



## LouS

Fatmiddleagedgeek said:


> Greetings all, first post.
> 
> I’ve been looking at a tube integrated but became curious about separates.
> 
> ...



Welcome to the group. All tube gear puts off heat. I used 6DJ8 and 12AX7 tubes and variants for years. The right combination of 6SN7s sound pretty awesome, and Schiit gear is far less expensive than what it would cost were it sold in stores! I haven't heard their amps as I have a pretty good amp now and can't justify the gamble, but the Freya is in use while my Acoustic Research LS15, Coda 05R, and Parasound H3 preamps collect dust.


----------



## LouS

Fatmiddleagedgeek said:


> Thanks. I know that in forums one typically only reads complaints so usually things tip negative.
> 
> I’m curious to know why the tube stage is so boosted. Seems like it exposes tubes that aren’t perfect but not for any real sonic gain. Thoughts? Also are you running Vidar with the Freya?



I believe the 13db is pretty standard for the tube, and you'd surely hear the tube noise with lower gain if you have the volume matched. 6SN7s, I understand, tend to be microphonic prone, but they are also reputed to be one of the better sounding tubes if you get a good set.


----------



## Fatmiddleagedgeek

Ghosthouse said:


> Wow...that is a heavy load you carry.  Sorry to hear about it.



I’m not sorry. My kiddo is frickin’ awesome. She’s a better person than I’ll ever be. My life is about her first and myself a distant second. Those distant seconds are my decompression time and so I like to throw on a few sides and relax.

I don’t smoke or do drugs and drink maybe 3 times a year so Music is my relaxation.

I’d like to purchase in late August or early September as I will have stored funds enough to absorb (hitting Disneyland next summer so I have to have that in line before the year is over).

I’m not living my best life but I am living my most important life. That’s all that matters for another 3 years. If all goes according to plan I can figure how to have a life and make friends after that.


----------



## Ghosthouse

Fatmiddleagedgeek said:


> I’m not sorry. My kiddo is frickin’ awesome. She’s a better person than I’ll ever be. My life is about her first and myself a distant second. Those distant seconds are my decompression time and so I like to throw on a few sides and relax.
> 
> I don’t smoke or do drugs and drink maybe 3 times a year so Music is my relaxation.
> 
> ...


Hats off to you!  Great outlook and attitude.  Hope you make the perfect decision...whether the Schiit separates or the integrated.  Have to say, for me right now, the gear, including Freya, is pretty much in place.  Sure there's always something better out there but at this point the music is the BIG variable.  Finding interesting and well recorded stuff seems more and more of a challenge.  You can only listen to Stairway to Heaven so many times before going completely mad.  The variability in recording quality is the 900 pound gorilla in the room that no one seems to talk about.  Having the best gear money can buy doesn't make up for crap recordings.  Again, good luck to you.


----------



## KoshNaranek

Fatmiddleagedgeek said:


> I’m not sorry. My kiddo is frickin’ awesome. She’s a better person than I’ll ever be. My life is about her first and myself a distant second. Those distant seconds are my decompression time and so I like to throw on a few sides and relax.
> 
> I don’t smoke or do drugs and drink maybe 3 times a year so Music is my relaxation.
> 
> ...



My warmest regards to you. You obviously have a good perspective.

On the Audio front, you may wish to use a Saga/Vidar combo instead. I have used both Saga and Vidar. I can say that Saga is really excellent if you are using a single ended source


----------



## Fatmiddleagedgeek

KoshNaranek said:


> My warmest regards to you. You obviously have a good perspective.
> 
> On the Audio front, you may wish to use a Saga/Vidar combo instead. I have used both Saga and Vidar. I can say that Saga is really excellent if you are using a single ended source


I wouldn’t be running mono blocks now but maybe in the future. Have you compared the sound of the Freya and the Saga? I know their implementation of tubes differed but how about overall sound comparison?


----------



## Fatmiddleagedgeek

KoshNaranek said:


> My warmest regards to you. You obviously have a good perspective.
> 
> On the Audio front, you may wish to use a Saga/Vidar combo instead. I have used both Saga and Vidar. I can say that Saga is really excellent if you are using a single ended source


My speakers are rated 92db although Stereophile rated them 90 and change. I wanted to add that.


----------



## KoshNaranek

Fatmiddleagedgeek said:


> I wouldn’t be running mono blocks now but maybe in the future. Have you compared the sound of the Freya and the Saga? I know their implementation of tubes differed but how about overall sound comparison?



They both have a 'family' sound in tube mode. The biggest advantage of Freya is the ability to use a balanced source and the increased gain.

As to running 1 Vidar vs 2. Vidar does not change character right up to the point it goes into protection mode. You don't really need to keep reserve power just fif headroom. Vidar's 100 watt rating belies its capability


----------



## Fatmiddleagedgeek

KoshNaranek said:


> They both have a 'family' sound in tube mode. The biggest advantage of Freya is the ability to use a balanced source and the increased gain.
> 
> As to running 1 Vidar vs 2. Vidar does not change character right up to the point it goes into protection mode. You don't really need to keep reserve power just fif headroom. Vidar's 100 watt rating belies its capability



I see. One Vidar would be enough me thinks. I’d be coming from a 45 wpc Marantz Class D. While it does many things right, it doesn’t give me the mid bass I want. This is because the speakers I run have impedance that drops to 4 ohms around 100hz and to get any of that I need to raise the volume hitting 95-100db minimum (which isn’t conducive to Apartment living).
The tube integrated I have been pondering is the Rogue Cronus Magnum 2 which is all tube and 100wpc.


----------



## Mondo Caliente

Not sure if these get mentioned around here much but the "factory upgraded" Jolida amps are an amazing value…I owned one of their power amps for years , a 502P, and rolled tubes all over it. Their newer integrated version has balanced inputs and such and switching for various tube types. If I wasn't a slave to single ended tube mojo I'd still have the Jolida.


----------



## hornytoad

Fatmiddleagedgeek said:


> I see. One Vidar would be enough me thinks. I’d be coming from a 45 wpc Marantz Class D. While it does many things right, it doesn’t give me the mid bass I want. This is because the speakers I run have impedance that drops to 4 ohms around 100hz and to get any of that I need to raise the volume hitting 95-100db minimum (which isn’t conducive to Apartment living).
> The tube integrated I have been pondering is the Rogue Cronus Magnum 2 which is all tube and 100wpc.


That  Rogue amp is spectacular. I have one and wouldn’t give it up under any circumstances.


----------



## Fatmiddleagedgeek (Mar 5, 2018)

hornytoad said:


> That  Rogue amp is spectacular. I have one and wouldn’t give it up under any circumstances.


It’s been my front runner but since I listen to
Primarily punk and reggae with a splash of jazz I started looking at maybe going separates. Having a tube front end with SS amplification primarily. Freya+Vidar or Saga+Vidar would be less expensive than the Rogue even used. So I started looking into it.
This whole rabbit hole was born from seeing a Rogue Sphinx. Ugh....


----------



## hornytoad

Fatmiddleagedgeek said:


> It’s been my front runner but since I listen to
> Primarily punk and reggae with a splash of jazz I started looking at maybe going separates. Having a tube front end with SS amplification primarily. Freya+Vidar or Saga+Vidar would be less expensive than the Rogue even used. So I started looking into it.


I have the Freya with two Vidars as well . The Rogue is much more powerful than running two Vidars in monoblock mode .


----------



## Fatmiddleagedgeek

hornytoad said:


> I have the Freya with two Vidars as well . The Rogue is much more powerful than running two Vidars in monoblock mode .


Wow really? Holy crap.


----------



## hornytoad

Fatmiddleagedgeek said:


> Wow really? Holy crap.


Yes . Really .


----------



## Fatmiddleagedgeek

Fatmiddleagedgeek said:


> Wow really? Holy crap.


Interesting. So what are your thoughts on either?


----------



## hornytoad

Fatmiddleagedgeek said:


> Interesting. So what are your thoughts on either?


Both combos are excellent . Slight nod to Schiit on clarity, resolution. I feel  the Rogue is better at lower volume levels though in detail retrieval . 
Both have a nice and wide soundstage . Even . 

For more raucous music like punk or rock , I like the Rogue . It kicks ass . For , jazz , vocals , I prefer the Schiit .


----------



## Mondo Caliente

The Vidars in mono are 400 watts into 8 ohms.


----------



## hornytoad

Mondo Caliente said:


> The Vidars in mono are 400 watts into 8 ohms.


Yep and the Rogue amp at 100 watts of tube power is still more powerful .


----------



## Fatmiddleagedgeek

hornytoad said:


> Both combos are excellent . Slight nod to Schiit on clarity, resolution. I feel  the Rogue is better at lower volume levels though in detail retrieval .
> Both have a nice and wide soundstage . Even .
> 
> For more raucous music like punk or rock , I like the Rogue . It kicks ass . For , jazz , vocals , I prefer the Schiit .


That’s EXACTLY the type of response I’m looking for. Low volume retrieval is a big deal (though yes my Marantz has tone controls and a loudness button).  Do you find that tube rolling the Schiit really pays off or is it more incremental?


----------



## Mondo Caliente

Watts are watts, and tube watts, although the even harmonic content can sound more comforting when played loud, the are still bound by the same general measurement. The Rogue Sphinx has 2 preamp tubes and class D output power, not tube.


----------



## hornytoad

Fatmiddleagedgeek said:


> That’s EXACTLY the type of response I’m looking for. Low volume retrieval is a big deal (though yes my Marantz has tone controls and a loudness button).  Do you find that tube rolling the Schiit really pays off or is it more incremental?


The stock tubes were garbage . Yes I would say tube rolling pays off . I have Shuangang Treasure tubes in now are they sound great . 
I suspect you could tube roll with Rogue but the Tung Sols they use are great .
Both Rogue and Schiit are great companies to deal with .


----------



## Fatmiddleagedgeek

Mondo Caliente said:


> The Rogue Sphinx has 2 preamp tubes and class D output power, not tube.


Right which is where my rabbit hole started (tube+SS). We’ve been taking about the Cronus Magnum 2.


----------



## Fatmiddleagedgeek

hornytoad said:


> The stock tubes were garbage . Yes I would say tube rolling pays off . I have Shuangang Treasure tubes in now are they sound great .
> I suspect you could tube roll with Rogue but the Tung Sols they use are great .
> Both Rogue and Schiit are great companies to deal with .


Perfect. I really appreciate your insight. This gives me a frame of reference as I have heard the Cronus.


----------



## hornytoad

Fatmiddleagedgeek said:


> Perfect. I really appreciate your insight. This gives me a frame of reference as I have heard the Cronus.


I preferred the Cronos to the Primaluna integrated amp I had before it . By a good margin .


----------



## Mondo Caliente

As a tube amp grease freak for about 50 years (albeit guitar amps mostly as a "working" musician) I always recommend tubes since they're more fun because they glow, you can look at them (take a transistor out and look at it…wait…no do not do that), change the tone of your amp by rolling them, and bore the daylights out of your "we don't care about audio" friends by ranting about your tubes.


----------



## jerick70 (Mar 5, 2018)

To add to this discussion and put a little different spin on it....  If you change your transducers it makes a huge difference for the positive or negative.  I changed my speakers to the Zu Omen IIs this weekend and it has nullified the need to seek another preamp.  I was looking at the Don Sach's Model 2 and the Hattor Audio passive pre w/ tube stage.  I'm not wanting to change now.....  I previously had the Ascend Acoustics Sierra-2 and I'm using a First Watt J2 as my amp.


----------



## Fatmiddleagedgeek

jerick70 said:


> To add to this discussion and put a little different spin on it....  If you change your transducers it makes a huge difference for the positive or negative.  I changed my speakers to the Zu Omen IIs this weekend and it has nullified the need to seek another preamp.  I was looking at the Don Sach's Model 2 and the Hattor Audio passive pre w/ tube stage.  I'm not wanting to change now.....  I previously had the Ascend Acoustics Sierra-2 and I'm using a First Watt J2 as my amp.


I really like my speakers. On another forum I got badgered about swapping speakers. They will be around a while. I was taught to buy speakers and then pick amplification that suits said speakers. Which is what I’m aiming at.


----------



## Mondo Caliente

Regarding low level listening, a Schiit Loki EQ is great for low level stuff and keeping the dreaded Fletcher Munson out of your earballs. I've had one of these for a while and it's generally out of the loop (literally), but when you need to fix a mix or listen at low level it's a cool el-cheapo gizmo…and seems utterly transparent when switched in and out. It's small enough that you can hide it from you elitist purist friends…they'll never know.


----------



## Fatmiddleagedgeek

Mondo Caliente said:


> you can hide it from you elitist purist friends…they'll never know.


No friends really. I’m definitrly not against using one. I try not to to tune the room as best I can. Then sweeten.


----------



## hornytoad

Fatmiddleagedgeek said:


> I really like my speakers. On another forum I got badgered about swapping speakers. They will be around a while. I was taught to buy speakers and then pick amplification that suits said speakers. Which is what I’m aiming at.


Please note that some on here have said 6SN7 have a greater chance at distortion noise issues than other tube variants like KT120's which the Rogue uses.  At low volume levels , this can make a negative impact.


----------



## jerick70

Fatmiddleagedgeek said:


> I really like my speakers. On another forum I got badgered about swapping speakers. They will be around a while. I was taught to buy speakers and then pick amplification that suits said speakers. Which is what I’m aiming at.


I look at it a little differently.  Any piece of kit in an audio chain can be changed at any time.  That's why you buy separate pieces of audio gear for each purpose of the chain. If it makes a positive difference to change one piece of gear, why not?  Isn't that why we are in this hobby, to find the best audio performance, to our ears?


----------



## jseymour

hornytoad said:


> Please note that some on here have said 6SN7 have a greater chance at distortion noise issues than other tube variants like KT120's which the Rogue uses.  At low volume levels , this can make a negative impact.



You are comparing the Freya's preamp tubes with Rogue's power tubes.  If you want to make a comparison, the 6SN7s should be compared to the 12AX7 and 12AU7 tubes that Rogues uses for preamp purposes.


----------



## Mondo Caliente

I argue against the soul stealing DSP movement (they're trying to take over the known universe) so it's refreshing to hear that. I use 2 REL subs adjusted properly (!) and the Loki was an experiment that worked. I do live sound mixing for money (and bragging rights that nobody cares about) so I'm a Knob Turner, but my listening room is luckily just fine when my delusional sonic taste chops are utilized (utterly personal nonsense, but I cling to it anyway).


----------



## hornytoad (Mar 5, 2018)

jseymour said:


> You are comparing the Freya's preamp tubes with Rogue's power tubes.  If you want to make a comparison, the 6SN7s should be compared to the 12AX7 and 12AU7 tubes that Rogues uses for preamp purposes.


You are correct. So ill say the 12AX7 preamp tubes are less susceptible in my experience to noise in my experience when compared to the 6sn7's ive used . Who knows why? Maybe because they are so damn tiny,who knows.


----------



## jerick70

hornytoad said:


> You are correct. So ill say the 12AX7 preamp tubes are less susceptible in my experience to noise in my experience when compared to the 6sn7's ive used . Who knows why? Maybe because they are so damn tiny,who knows.


Surface area of the glass and wire runs would make the most sense to me too.


----------



## hornytoad

jerick70 said:


> Surface area of the glass and wire runs would make the most sense to me too.


True enough.


----------



## jseymour

jerick70 said:


> Surface area of the glass and wire runs would make the most sense to me too.



That may explain why I always find 7N7 to be dead quiet since they are the smallest member of the 6SN7 family.  But I also use 6C8G (always in the output buffer) and 6F8Gs and have only had a few noise issues.  It might be due to age since they are WWII tubes.


----------



## Mondo Caliente

My Dennis Had Firebottle amp came with an Amperex NOS 6SN7GTB which is my first experience with that tube. I like it so much I scrounged around for another one in case this one died…now since adding the Freya I have a pile of 6SN7GTBs (new Tung Sols, Sylvania Chrome domes, NOS Amperexs or Amperi?), and none (even the dreaded "stock" 6H8Cs) have been microphonic…luck? Yes.


----------



## jerick70

Mondo Caliente said:


> My Dennis Had Firebottle amp came with an Amperex NOS 6SN7GTB which is my first experience with that tube. I like it so much I scrounged around for another one in case this one died…now since adding the Freya I have a pile of 6SN7GTBs (new Tung Sols, Sylvania Chrome domes, NOS Amperexs or Amperi?), and none (even the dreaded "stock" 6H8Cs) have been microphonic…luck? Yes.


It's just the Freya.  It's notoriously noisy.  I have the exact same issue with a lot of NOS tubes.  I've found that the CV-181z and CV-181-T to be dead quite in the gain stage.  I run the Tung-sol reissues in the output stage.


----------



## jerick70 (Mar 5, 2018)

jseymour said:


> That may explain why I always find 7N7 to be dead quiet since they are the smallest member of the 6SN7 family.  But I also use 6C8G (always in the output buffer) and 6F8Gs and have only had a few noise issues.  It might be due to age since they are WWII tubes.


I'm deducing this from my time with tube audio gear.  The larger the tube the more chance for interference creeping in.  I'm not an expert in tube circuits by any means.  Just putting some food for thought out there..... It could very well be how much voltage and amperage that is going through the 6SN7 compared to the 12AX7 and 12AU7 or even a bad circuit design in 6SN7 and it's derivative tubes.  I like to go with what in my mind is the lowest hanging fruit first....


----------



## Mondo Caliente

My Freya has never been noisy, and this is after it replaced an amazingly quiet SS preamp. Like many around these parts I have a noise filtering AC conditioner, a Humbuster III, bespoke regulated power supplies, blah blah to fight against the dreaded hum…and I'm winning seemingly…I recently had an issue with a low hum through my subs that was traced to the SE amp's rectifier tube…swapped to a 274B and the issue went away. Mysterious, but true.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

I've got my analogs plugged directly to the outlet which has its own thicker line straight to the breaker panel and nothing else in it. The digital stuff has its own line as well, my led lighting in the living room also on the same line but all the digital units have a Furman unit between it and the wall. No noises to speak of.


----------



## jerick70

jseymour said:


> You are comparing the Freya's preamp tubes with Rogue's power tubes.  If you want to make a comparison, the 6SN7s should be compared to the 12AX7 and 12AU7 tubes that Rogues uses for preamp purposes.


Yes not the same animal at all.


----------



## jerick70

Mondo Caliente said:


> My Freya has never been noisy, and this is after it replaced an amazingly quiet SS preamp. Like many around these parts I have a noise filtering AC conditioner, a Humbuster III, bespoke regulated power supplies, blah blah to fight against the dreaded hum…and I'm winning seemingly…I recently had an issue with a low hum through my subs that was traced to the SE amp's rectifier tube…swapped to a 274B and the issue went away. Mysterious, but true.


You're lucky then. My Freya hates any sort of radio waves and most NOS tubes.  I had to move my wireless router to a totally different part of the house because it would pickup the waves and turn them into an awful high pitched noise


----------



## Fatmiddleagedgeek

I’m wondering about those Marantz T7 clones as a front end to Vidar. Swap the tubes for good ones and let it roll.

No remote but an interesting idea. I have no idea if it would even work.


----------



## winders (Mar 6, 2018)

hornytoad said:


> You are correct. So ill say the 12AX7 preamp tubes are less susceptible in my experience to noise in my experience when compared to the 6sn7's ive used . Who knows why? Maybe because they are so damn tiny,who knows.



6SN7 tubes are a bit more susceptible to noise than 12AX7 tubes. But, they sound quite a bit better. I'd take the 6SN7 as driver tubes along side KT88 power tubes in an amp any day. I would also take the 6SN7 tubes in preamp circuits over the 12AX7.


----------



## Fatmiddleagedgeek

hornytoad said:


> Both combos are excellent . Slight nod to Schiit on clarity, resolution. I feel  the Rogue is better at lower volume levels though in detail retrieval .
> Both have a nice and wide soundstage . Even .
> 
> For more raucous music like punk or rock , I like the Rogue . It kicks ass . For , jazz , vocals , I prefer the Schiit .


Would you surmise that the Freya might be the weak link when comparing the Schiit stack to the Rogue? Like if you went with a more tube based pre like those Marantz T7 clones with good quality tubes?


----------



## hornytoad

Fatmiddleagedgeek said:


> Would you surmise that the Freya might be the weak link when comparing the Schiit stack to the Rogue? Like if you went with a more tube based pre like those Marantz T7 clones with good quality tubes?


No . I do feel the Freya is a little more susceptible to  external noise interference than the Rogue though (routers, lighting , etc. )


----------



## Mondo Caliente

Here's a little Freya tale…before the Freya I bought a Loki EQ and the LED was too bright for my tastes. Took the cover off and a careful dab green marker fixed that issue. I get the Freya and the same LED brightness issue is there, albeit there's more if it. I like to take new things apart anyway so off comes the cover, and out comes the Sharpie…no problemo (violate the warranty? uh…). I subsequently go to put the cover back on with all the little LEDs in their little holes…AARRGGG…a mind destroying and insanely difficult task requiring just walking away from it many times to bang my head against the wall…finally got 'em lined up and they popped in…whew…the operation was a success as the LEDs are now rendered unobtrusive, but oh man…I may never recover...


----------



## sam6550a

Mondo Caliente said:


> Here's a little Freya tale…before the Freya I bought a Loki EQ and the LED was too bright for my tastes. Took the cover off and a careful dab green marker fixed that issue. I get the Freya and the same LED brightness issue is there, albeit there's more if it. I like to take new things apart anyway so off comes the cover, and out comes the Sharpie…no problemo (violate the warranty? uh…). I subsequently go to put the cover back on with all the little LEDs in their little holes…AARRGGG…a mind destroying and insanely difficult task requiring just walking away from it many times to bang my head against the wall…finally got 'em lined up and they popped in…whew…the operation was a success as the LEDs are now rendered unobtrusive, but oh man…I may never recover...


Replacing the LEDs into their respective holes is an exercise in extreme patience. How do they do it in the factory without becoming insane??


----------



## whatcomfalls (Mar 7, 2018)

Mondo Caliente said:


> My Freya has never been noisy, and this is after it replaced an amazingly quiet SS preamp. Like many around these parts I have a noise filtering AC conditioner, a Humbuster III, bespoke regulated power supplies, blah blah to fight against the dreaded hum…and I'm winning seemingly…I recently had an issue with a low hum through my subs that was traced to the SE amp's rectifier tube…swapped to a 274B and the issue went away. Mysterious, but true.


Mine hasn't been noisy either. I've had some noisy NOS tubes, but at no fault to the Freya.


----------



## Fatmiddleagedgeek

I’ve been thoroughly scared off by Freya. I’ve been researching what other pre’s Would work with Vidar.

I think though I’ll go with the Rogue as I don’t have the kind of luck where I’ll receive a good unit. I think Schiit does great things. Maybe when Freya 2 emerges I will be primed to reconsider it.

As an aside those upper end pre’s from Van Alstine look fantastic. Mono button, a low gain button to combat the too high volume control on high sensitivity speakers and I bet it sounds great.


----------



## sublime9

hornytoad said:


> Please note that some on here have said 6SN7 have a greater chance at distortion noise issues than other tube variants like KT120's which the Rogue uses.  At low volume levels , this can make a negative impact.


Why are a KT120 and a 6SN7 being compared to each other?


----------



## Mondo Caliente

Here's how I read it…somebody thinks that 6SN7s might have some noise issue beyond 12AX7s (in my experience with the supplied Freya tubes, NOS Amperex and Sylvanias, and new Tung Sol 6SN7GTBs they seem quiet) which could be true in noisy ones which could lead to low level listening issues, and a Rogue with KT120s might not (unless it does). This strains at comprehension for those wanting a linear or relevant logical thread, but as someone who has both no beef with gonzo conversation and has a short attention span, it's fine.


----------



## winders

sublime9 said:


> Why are a KT120 and a 6SN7 being compared to each other?



I tried to call that out in a subtle way......unusual for me I know.


----------



## sam6550a

sublime9 said:


> Why are a KT120 and a 6SN7 being compared to each other?


It is like comparing a 10 oz ball peen hammer to a 16 lb sledge hammer, IMHO.


----------



## Boogie7910

Should I get the Freya for windows volume control or just use the desktop volume? I sit far back from my home theater pc so using the knob on my amp is a pain.


----------



## hornytoad

jerick70 said:


> You're lucky then. My Freya hates any sort of radio waves and most NOS tubes.  I had to move my wireless router to a totally different part of the house because it would pickup the waves and turn them into an awful high pitched noise


I have had to move my router as well , further away from the Freya . I could literally move my router closer and further away and hear the surge in noise through my speakers .


----------



## Ghosthouse

Folks - A quick Freya-related question, though a bit off-topic from latest discussions.  Would appreciate member expertise...

I just received socket savers from PatsConnexion as recommended elsewhere in this thread.  Right now, using them with a quad of new production EH 6SN7s.

The socket savers fit fine in the Freya chassis openings BUT the tubes install very tightly.  Took a bit of effort to get the tubes fully seated in the socket saver.  So much effort that it seemed wiser to install tubes in socket savers first, and then insert the whole 2 part assembly into the actual Freya tube socket.  Haven't tried yet but am concerned removing a tube will simply pull out the socket saver with it.  The socket savers go into the Freya tube socket way easier than the tubes go into the savers.  Inadvertently pulling out the socket saver seems like it defeats their purpose.  Any tips for removing tubes while leaving the socket saver behind (i.e., installed)?  Please advise.  Thanks in advance.


----------



## jseymour

I use socket savers in my Freya.  I have run into a couple of 6sN7s that pull the socket saver up on tube removal.  I also have a collection of 6C8Gs, 6F8Gs and 7N7s that require socket adapters.  With the regular socket savers in place, I never have an issue when I remove a tube with an adapter attached.  So if you have extra socket savers try doubling up.


----------



## jerick70

Ghosthouse said:


> Folks - A quick Freya-related question, though a bit off-topic from latest discussions.  Would appreciate member expertise...
> 
> I just received socket savers from PatsConnexion as recommended elsewhere in this thread.  Right now, using them with a quad of new production EH 6SN7s.
> 
> The socket savers fit fine in the Freya chassis openings BUT the tubes install very tightly.  Took a bit of effort to get the tubes fully seated in the socket saver.  So much effort that it seemed wiser to install tubes in socket savers first, and then insert the whole 2 part assembly into the actual Freya tube socket.  Haven't tried yet but am concerned removing a tube will simply pull out the socket saver with it.  The socket savers go into the Freya tube socket way easier than the tubes go into the savers.  Inadvertently pulling out the socket saver seems like it defeats their purpose.  Any tips for removing tubes while leaving the socket saver behind (i.e., installed)?  Please advise.  Thanks in advance.


I use the Tubemonger NOVIB-McMurdo socket savers with my Freya.  These socket savers are just the right height to put the base of the tube above the top plate of the Freya.  They pretty much sit flush.  They work really well.  I use all sorts of 6SN7 and derivative tubes with them with no problems.


----------



## Ghosthouse

@jerick70 

Thanks for the response.  The top of the PartsConnexion socket savers are flush with the _bottom_ side of the Freya's top plate.  Given how tight the tube pins fit in the socket saver, I might have to use some kind of flat plastic tool to keep the savers from pulling out when I change tubes.  I take it the TubeMonger savers don't have a death grip on your tubes?


----------



## Ghosthouse

@jseymour 
Double up on the socket savers.  GENIUS!  If I can't figure out a way to extract tubes without the whole thing coming out, I will definitely try that.  THANKS.


----------



## DrJam

I have the socket savers from PartsConnexion in my Freya as well, and initially had exactly the same issue.  I think I used a wooden chopstick or maybe a wooden clothespin to keep the socket saver in while I removed the tubes, but I only had to do this a couple of times.  Now I can get the tubes out without removing the sockets savers no problem.  I guess they were just initially a bit tight.


----------



## jerick70 (Mar 19, 2018)

@Ghosthouse

Yes I do have issues with the socket savers coming out.  Only occasionally though.

After getting home and checking the socket savers in my Freya, I was incorrect.  The socket savers actually sit lower than the top off the hole.....  I've never had issues with any of my tubes though.  The two tubes in the bottom pictures are the new issue 6SN7EH with the red base and an NOS Rayteon VT-231 with black base.


----------



## jerick70 (Mar 23, 2018)

Has anyone tried the NOS Russian 6H8C with the Freya?  I picked up a pair of cryo treated 6H8Cs and they are wonderful in the Freya gain stage.  I still need to burn them in but they are very good right out of the box.  Nice sweet deep sounding tube with lots of texture and detail.


----------



## Mondo Caliente

I've been pulling tubes out of amps for around 50 years (and boy are my fingers tired…mostly guitar amps…but still…) and never felt I've needed anything like socket savers. I prefer to not have any extra connecting going on, but I doubt it makes much difference. I'll change my mind when the Freya disgorges it's sockets I suppose (I would not be happy with that), but you simply carefully wiggle the tubes out…right? No? Gentle patience, or more secure sockets…something…now I'll have an irrational fear of tube swapping...


----------



## bmanone

I bought socket savers mainly to raise the tubes higher out of the case for better heat dissipation and ability to use tube types with bases that have larger diameters.  I haven't tried any of the tubes with larger bases, but it seems to help some (not a lot) with the heat. It does make tube swapping easier. I never was concerned with socket wear out on the Freya. I'm sure the Freya's tube socket insertion life is ample for any of our usage cases. YMMV


----------



## Mondo Caliente

Heat from the tubes in my Freya (and, perhaps, YOUR Freya) don't seem as hot as tubes elsewhere, like in my amp…I can touch them without instantly burning myself (although I carefully wipe my fingerprints off the tubes to protect my identity, keep the "chrome domes" shiny, and finger grease on tubes is allegedly a bad thing), the Freya has more vent holes than any preamp or amp I've owned, and the area above the transformers is much warmer than near the tubes…weirdly…maybe they're working too hard with my amp or something, but no explosions have occurred…I turn any tube gear off when I'm not around.


----------



## jerick70

Everyone's view on the socket savers in the Freya is excellent info. I was having really bad noise from my tubes when I first installed my Freya. The socket saver seem to have totally gotten rid of the noise.


----------



## Ghosthouse

Thanks to all.  Sorry for the delayed response.  Dr. Jam , I like the wood tools you've used.  Was also thinking maybe a small plastic paint spatula would work.

I do find elevating the tubes has made a big difference in how warm the chassis gets.  Can't be a bad thing.  Thanks again to everyone who provided input.


----------



## DrJam

Ghosthouse said:


> Thanks to all.  Sorry for the delayed response.  Dr. Jam , I like the wood tools you've used.  Was also thinking maybe a small plastic paint spatula would work.
> 
> I do find elevating the tubes has made a big difference in how warm the chassis gets.  Can't be a bad thing.  Thanks again to everyone who provided input.



If the spatula is rigid then it will probably work great.  But, if it is flexible then it may just bend and not separate the tube from the socket saver.  The chopsticks were rigid and I only needed to use them a couple of times. Plus they were free


----------



## jeffrt

Not sure if this is the right spot for this, but what the heck ...
I came across an interesting glitch in the Freya documentation while exchanging emails with Schiit about socket savers and tube rolling. I asked if they thought if rolling tubes for the Cathode followers made a true difference. (My experiments showed they didn't to my ears.)  In the course of the discussion Tom from Schiit said to leave the left pair, the Cathode followers, alone. That got my attention, because my manual says the REAR pair are the Cathode Followers and the Front pair are the Gain Stage. Tom checked with Jason who said the online manual which says the LEFT pair are the Cathode Followers and the Right Pair are the Gain Stage.

I had been rolling only the FRONT pair thinking that the Gain Stage made the true difference. Now I understand a little bit why the amp never quite seemed as ... cogent as it should sound.

While the tubes that came with the Freya were all the same, I think only the gain stage pair need to be balanced and the cathode follower pain need t be balance, but you don't need the quad to be balance 

So, I wonder if anyone else followed the printed manual vs the online manual or does everyone use only matched quads for this amp?


----------



## LouS

jeffrt said:


> Not sure if this is the right spot for this, but what the heck ...
> I came across an interesting glitch in the Freya documentation while exchanging emails with Schiit about socket savers and tube rolling. I asked if they thought if rolling tubes for the Cathode followers made a true difference. (My experiments showed they didn't to my ears.)  In the course of the discussion Tom from Schiit said to leave the left pair, the Cathode followers, alone. That got my attention, because my manual says the REAR pair are the Cathode Followers and the Front pair are the Gain Stage. Tom checked with Jason who said the online manual which says the LEFT pair are the Cathode Followers and the Right Pair are the Gain Stage.
> 
> I had been rolling only the FRONT pair thinking that the Gain Stage made the true difference. Now I understand a little bit why the amp never quite seemed as ... cogent as it should sound.
> ...



I guess I had read info. online because I knew which were which before I purchased it. I disagree with Tom from Schiit though. If you look back, you'll find the best Raytheon tubes, but in addition to them, to get proper tone, you need preferably Ken Rads, or less desirable are the Hytron/CBS tubes. Both sockets potentially effect the sound. I would use the less expensive tubes in the gain stage. The most neutral cables I have found are Signal Cables with the silver wire, they actually have copper and silver wires. Tried include, Cardas Golden Presence, Silver Sonics, Spirits, Columbia, etc. Interestingly the Signal cables are by far the least expensive too. Most of the cable differences are pretty subtle compared to some of the tube combinations that I have tried.


----------



## Pandahead

jeffrt said:


> Not sure if this is the right spot for this, but what the heck ...
> I came across an interesting glitch in the Freya documentation while exchanging emails with Schiit about socket savers and tube rolling. I asked if they thought if rolling tubes for the Cathode followers made a true difference. (My experiments showed they didn't to my ears.)  In the course of the discussion Tom from Schiit said to leave the left pair, the Cathode followers, alone. That got my attention, because my manual says the REAR pair are the Cathode Followers and the Front pair are the Gain Stage. Tom checked with Jason who said the online manual which says the LEFT pair are the Cathode Followers and the Right Pair are the Gain Stage.
> 
> I had been rolling only the FRONT pair thinking that the Gain Stage made the true difference. Now I understand a little bit why the amp never quite seemed as ... cogent as it should sound.
> ...


Experiment and see. I have found that the quality of the gain stage is reinforced by the same type tubes as followers. If you have what you feel is a reasonably neutral pair as followers you can purchase pairs of different tubes to try in the gain stage. Since the better NOS tubes can be pretty expensive you can start with a pair this way. If they are what you're looking for then try using 4 of them. Sometimes you can combine, use a different pair you like and temper the gain stage. Enjoy experimenting, that's about all you can do. But, I have found the best sound is with a quad.


----------



## jeffrt (Apr 12, 2018)

Thanks, Pandahead.

I have ordered a couple of pairs of balanced/matched tubes to go along with the ones I already have to test this theory - using the same tubes in both positions. They include new Tung-Sols, NOS Sylvania 6SN7GTBs from 1950s (which I like in the Freya) and a set of cryo'd new Tung-Sols (I like the theory behind cryogenic treatment of tubes; I should be able to compare them to the untreated same tube to see if and how much difference there is..)

As for 5692 Red Base tubes and Ken-Rads, I'm afraid I'm very averse to spending such a high proportion of the unit's original cost on a set of tubes.

Thanks for all the suggestions.


----------



## Mondo Caliente

The clean matched pair NOS Sylvania "chrome domes" I found weren't expensive and have been a seriously great sounding thing with the new version Tung Sols in the "2nd" stage. Now I have enough 6SN7GTBs to last for years…still…RCAs? I might have to...


----------



## jeffrt

Mondo Caliente said:


> The clean matched pair NOS Sylvania "chrome domes" I found weren't expensive and have been a seriously great sounding thing with the new version Tung Sols in the "2nd" stage. Now I have enough 6SN7GTBs to last for years…still…RCAs? I might have to...



I agree on the Sylvania GTBs (got mine unused/NOS from a nice guy on Ebay [imagine that]; they're from 1958.). Right now they're in both positions. I have a quad of new production Tung-Sols coming, based on what I have read hear + the fact they were relatively inexpensive (compared to Red Base 5692a and many VT-231).


----------



## LouS (Apr 14, 2018)

jeffrt said:


> Thanks, Pandahead.
> 
> I have ordered a couple of pairs of balanced/matched tubes to go along with the ones I already have to test this theory - using the same tubes in both positions. They include new Tung-Sols, NOS Sylvania 6SN7GTBs from 1950s (which I like in the Freya) and a set of cryo'd new Tung-Sols (I like the theory behind cryogenic treatment of tubes; I should be able to compare them to the untreated same tube to see if and how much difference there is..)
> 
> ...



Ken Rads don't image, a quad would be a big waste, if you are careful you can get a decent pair for a decent price, but be sure they have been tested for microphonics, they are notoriously microphonic. What they do add is dead on tone, violins, pianos, etc., sound right, but you'll need Raytheons, or Treasure II's, etc., to get good imaging.


----------



## jeffrt

Jozurr said:


> I'm not sure why $$$ are being dropped for tubes like Shuguangs and new issue tung sols. Normal 6SN7 tube rolling applies here. Head over to the 6SN7 thread. There are some very good value NOS tubes that can be had for cheap and are easily better than new issues. Tubes like Hytron 6SN7GT, Tung Sol Mouse Ears, Sylvania 6SN7WGT, RCA VT-231, Ken-Rad VT-231, depending on the kind of sound you want, and the headphones/speakers you'll be using. All very good tubes and most of them can be had between $50-$100. Yes you need to spend some time to find reliable/dealers and sellers and hunt some deals down. You can only buy the driver tubes and not the trailing ones, as the trailing tubes will have limited effect on sound. The new issues are not as good as the NOS tubes. I think one of the few new issue tubes that are regarded well are the CV181Z by Shuguang Treasure, but Im not sure they run/fit the Freya.



Funny how one year can change EVERYTHING! The above was posted in Feb. 2017.

I just looked on Ebay for Hytron 6SN7GT and it's no longer $50-100, but $300 for a pair.
I looked for Ken-Rad VT-231 and it's no longer $100, but $500 for a pair.


----------



## LouS

jeffrt said:


> Funny how one year can change EVERYTHING! The above was posted in Feb. 2017.
> 
> I just looked on Ebay for Hytron 6SN7GT and it's no longer $50-100, but $300 for a pair.
> I looked for Ken-Rad VT-231 and it's no longer $100, but $500 for a pair.



He suggested you check here, ePay is virtually always expensive though I have found some decent buys, but you have to dig and be patient to do so. One "trick" is to find single tubes that test as NOS. The crazy pairs for hundreds of dollars are usually just there, they don't seem to sell often, those I don't allow to bother or deter me, good sellers also know that the absurd price tubes don't sell, so you can still find sane prices if you have the time to invest. For those who's time is far more valuable, there are $500 pairs.


----------



## jeffrt

LouS said:


> He suggested you check here, ePay is virtually always expensive though I have found some decent buys, but you have to dig and be patient to do so. One "trick" is to find single tubes that test as NOS. The crazy pairs for hundreds of dollars are usually just there, they don't seem to sell often, those I don't allow to bother or deter me, good sellers also know that the absurd price tubes don't sell, so you can still find sane prices if you have the time to invest. For those who's time is far more valuable, there are $500 pairs.



I too have found deals thru regular dealers like tubedepot.com and tctubes.com and tubemonger.com and,believe it or not thru Ebay. My only point was that over a year, "potential" prices for some of the more wanted (not necessarily desirable) tubes have skyrocketed. More than a few people have recommended Red Base and VT-231s and the like, but having to search for weeks or months for decent matched NOS tubes at a rational price does not seem worth the blood, sweat, tears and aggravation. There are some excellent, tubes available at reasonable prices with 75-95% of the performance of many of these insanely priced NOS tubes.


----------



## Alveric

jeffrt said:


> I too have found deals thru regular dealers like tubedepot.com and tctubes.com and tubemonger.com and,believe it or not thru Ebay. My only point was that over a year, "potential" prices for some of the more wanted (not necessarily desirable) tubes have skyrocketed. More than a few people have recommended Red Base and VT-231s and the like, but having to search for weeks or months for decent matched NOS tubes at a rational price does not seem worth the blood, sweat, tears and aggravation. There are some excellent, tubes available at reasonable prices with 75-95% of the performance of many of these insanely priced NOS tubes.


I have given up on tubes off ebay. Bought a pair of red base RCAs for $180 and they flat out are the worst tubes I ever bought. Spitting DC and noise, a real threat to my amp and speakers. I was like 5 days past the so-called warranty and so they refused shipment back to even retest them. Since ebay supports sellers not buyers, I boycotted for over a year. Stick to reputable sellers and make sure you have time to fully test them.


----------



## jeffrt

Alveric said:


> I have given up on tubes off ebay. Bought a pair of red base RCAs for $180 and they flat out are the worst tubes I ever bought. Spitting DC and noise, a real threat to my amp and speakers. I was like 5 days past the so-called warranty and so they refused shipment back to even retest them. Since ebay supports sellers not buyers, I boycotted for over a year. Stick to reputable sellers and make sure you have time to fully test them.



I understand why you did that. Condolences on such a large loss without recompense.
I have been luckier in that regard. So I'll continue to look at EBay and try to buy as intelligently as I can, from sellers with good records. That said, for the most part, I do buy from good internet sellers with their own web sites.


----------



## DrJam

jeffrt said:


> I understand why you did that. Condolences on such a large loss without recompense.
> I have been luckier in that regard. So I'll continue to look at EBay and try to buy as intelligently as I can, from sellers with good records. That said, for the most part, I do buy from good internet sellers with their own web sites.



After spending a lot of time doing ebay research, I bought tubes from two different sellers.  In the first set that arrived one of the tubes was dead.  Aww schiit, here we go...  I sent the seller an email and got a response in about 12 seconds.  Seller was very apologetic; said the tubes tested fine, but didn't doubt my claims and wanted to make it right.  After a short email conversation, I returned the tubes in exchange for a pair of RCA GTB's that I like a lot.  

The point is that problems happen, but how those problems are addressed is what is important and in this case the seller was fantastic.  In fact, I've bought another set from that seller (and several from the other seller) as well.  I don't have any of the "reference set" like @winders has, but I have a pretty good collection of Raytheon, GE, RCA and Sylvania that I'm happy with.


----------



## LouS

DrJam said:


> After spending a lot of time doing ebay research, I bought tubes from two different sellers.  In the first set that arrived one of the tubes was dead.  Aww schiit, here we go...  I sent the seller an email and got a response in about 12 seconds.  Seller was very apologetic; said the tubes tested fine, but didn't doubt my claims and wanted to make it right.  After a short email conversation, I returned the tubes in exchange for a pair of RCA GTB's that I like a lot.
> 
> The point is that problems happen, but how those problems are addressed is what is important and in this case the seller was fantastic.  In fact, I've bought another set from that seller (and several from the other seller) as well.  I don't have any of the "reference set" like @winders has, but I have a pretty good collection of Raytheon, GE, RCA and Sylvania that I'm happy with.




I bought some tubes from Winders, let me tell you, they all tested fine, but one died after a few hours of play. So his reference tubes are as susceptible to dying as anyone's. I never mentioned it because it was everything he represented it to be, tested NOS, it was great, it wasn't his fault it failed, these tubes just are what they are, production was not what it is today, so you can pay $500 for a tube, have it test perfect, but then it fails after a few hours. It absolutely sucks, but it's unfortunately part of the game. If I wanted to try to run a company, you can have these old tubes tested and find out exactly how they were made. Their are no rights to this old technology so the only thing holding anyone back from making them on modern nearly 100% repeatable machines in insane numbers an hour is desire. I can't imagine that the audio and guitar communities wouldn't poor money into a go fund me, or some such fund in order to get a nearly limitless supply of exact replicas for a fraction of the current costs. I don't understand why the existing manufacturers aren't doing it unless they don't use modern machines. Robots and PLCS could turn out hundreds an hour, and can be programmed to make as many different tubes as you want to program them to make. The real challenge may be in replicating the metals used exactly. Small runs of specialty metals are expensive, but on a per tube basis it shouldn't add that much to the price.


----------



## DrJam (Apr 25, 2018)

LouS said:


> I bought some tubes from Winders, let me tell you, they all tested fine, but one died after a few hours of play. So his reference tubes are as susceptible to dying as anyone's. I never mentioned it because it was everything he represented it to be, tested NOS, it was great, it wasn't his fault it failed, these tubes just are what they are, production was not what it is today, so you can pay $500 for a tube, have it test perfect, but then it fails after a few hours. It absolutely sucks, but it's unfortunately part of the game. If I wanted to try to run a company, you can have these old tubes tested and find out exactly how they were made. Their are no rights to this old technology so the only thing holding anyone back from making them on modern nearly 100% repeatable machines in insane numbers an hour is desire. I can't imagine that the audio and guitar communities wouldn't poor money into a go fund me, or some such fund in order to get a nearly limitless supply of exact replicas for a fraction of the current costs. I don't understand why the existing manufacturers aren't doing it unless they don't use modern machines. Robots and PLCS could turn out hundreds an hour, and can be programmed to make as many different tubes as you want to program them to make. The real challenge may be in replicating the metals used exactly. Small runs of specialty metals are expensive, but on a per tube basis it shouldn't add that much to the price.



And I suppose fear of that experience is why I'm ok with pairs in the $30-50 range but not so much the ones that go for $150-200+.  After all, these were made ~50-70 years ago!
The 5 pairs I have all sound better than the stock 6H8C.  Currently I don't have a good setup room wise, and I'm guessing that to be able to really appreciate some of these "holy grail" tubes I would need a much better listening space.


----------



## LouS

DrJam said:


> And I suppose fear of that experience is why I'm ok with pairs in the $30-50 range but not so much the ones that go for $150-200+.  After all, these were made ~50-70 years ago!
> The 5 pairs I have all sound better than the stock 6H8C.  Currently I don't have a good setup room wise, and I'm guessing that to be able to really appreciate some of these "holy grail" tubes I would need a much better listening space.



Well, Winders didn't charge that much, it likely was a 50-100 dollar tube, I don't recall the exact price. Furthermore, if you can hear the differences between stock tubes and better ones, surely you would also hear the differences between the better tubes and higher end tubes. The big problem for me is that the very best sounding set up that I have found is a combination of Ken Rads and the Raytheons that have a T looking structure in the wiring in the bottom of the tube. The Ken Rads have a strong tendency for being microphonic. Herbie's tube dampers help, but don't cure the problem, so you either need to use box speakers and keep the preamp behind them, or perhaps make a U shaped foam contraption to protect the back and sides of the preamp from dipole speaker's sound waves. That said, I suppose one must decide for one's self if one is a big enough of a hedonist to expend the requisite resources to audio heaven, so to speak, or not. It's a lot of money for a hobby, especially considering that the reliability isn't very impressive, but as far as sound goes, you would hear the differences, but it may not be worth it to you. I frequently listen to mine in passive mode with the tubes out of it, I save the tubes for serious listening.


----------



## Tennessee

Got a question - is there much sense in adding freya to a good powered amp? I can turn off volume control on it. And would like to hear those tubes... ^^


----------



## LouS

That's a personal preference. With the right tubes, I definitely believe that my system sounds better with the Freya, but I have an amplifier, so a preamp is pretty much a must have for me anyway.


----------



## Mondo Caliente

I only buy NOS tubes from places (or people in the case of Ebay) with warranties/return policies. So far it's been great luck (years ago thetubestore replaced a pair of Philips 12AT7s when one blew…warranty!), and I also found that NOS Sylvania "chrome domes" are plentiful, relatively inexpensive, and in the case of the pair I bought some months ago, they sound fabulous…no microphonics or any other noise. It's luck maybe. Regarding buying a Freya to use with what I assume the poster meant is an integrated amp with a preamp bypass, I think hey…why not? Do it. Do it now. Also regarding the post noting "saving the tubes" by using the passive or FET option, I think you'd have to actually remove the tubes to save 'em as they're always on. I use the non-tube modes just as a "I wonder if my tubes are dying" reference mode only, or due to bad remote controlling, so I'm glad they're part of Freyaland.…also my experience is that preamp tubes last a long time relative to power tubes anyway…years…I get bored and swap preamp tubes generally well before they display any tonal issues, but have hung with power tubes until they were begging to be replaced, thus a general preamp or small tube stash. Now my single ended amp only has one small tube, a 6SN7GTB coincidently, so 12AX7s and AT7s (and one 12AU7 in a little tube headphone amp) are all destined for guitar amps.


----------



## FalM

I have been looking back through posts and couldn't find anything but is has anyone changed their power cord on the Freya and if you did what did you use and did you notice any improvement. Sorry if this has been covered before.


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## jeffrt (May 12, 2018)

FalM said:


> I have been looking back through posts and couldn't find anything but is has anyone changed their power cord on the Freya and if you did what did you use and did you notice any improvement. Sorry if this has been covered before.



I always use and aftermarket power cord. To my ears, the ones I use do make a difference from the word. "go". (Beware, that there are many people who denigrate your opinion to no end, for even admitting to this, as if they were were the dispensing the wisdom of God as it had been handed down to them. I trust my ears, before I trust the naysayers.)

My original power cords were designed and made by Bob Crump (deceased) under his TG Audio brand; they're called HSR A and 688 model cords. They are probably only available these days as used. I recently started using VH Audio power cords made by Chris VenHaus. I'm using the Flavor 1 on the Valhalla. https://www.vhaudio.com/powercables.html]/url]

Both cords allow slightly cleaner sound, slightly more detail and more bloom to come through the headphones.


----------



## Rhamnetin

So the general consensus is that the Freya can be very noisy in tube gain mode, even with very good tubes? Thankfully Schiit has a return policy so I can test it out and return it if I don't like it. One of the main reasons I am interested in the Freya as a preamp is because in tube gain mode it converts a SE signal into balanced, which is how I'd use it primarily. But I hate high noise floors, and I don't want it to degrade the audio signal from a Chord Hugo 2 or to a HeadAmp GS-X Mk2. Does the Freya sound right for me?


----------



## Soundsgoodtome (May 19, 2018)

Unfortunately there are some sound manipulation which come through as some high frequency easing with the Freya from the Hugo 2 (vs using the Hugo 2 as a pre directly to an ss amp powering vintage KEF speakers). With that said I use Belden interconnects which isn't fancy by any means but in my opinion are plenty good. However I do use the same belden cables to go straight to the amp from the Hugo2 and quality gains can be heard, more-so in the treble region. This is via JFet and tube mode using EH tubes. By no means is it bad, it's more of a Freya sound signature (or Schiit sound depending on how you want to see it). I have tested it changing DAC and amp sections as well as speakers, it has its signature in all of them. Quite frankly excellent balance with certain gear, too much for other that are already tilted towards warmth (subjectively).

This has got me thinking of trying LISST tubes to see if I can get the Freya to sound like connecting my amp directly to the H2.

In regards to noise, I do not have this issue with the Freya using EH tubes. I did with stock tubes which sound mediocre at best anyway so save those for a rainy day or if you decide to strictly run JFET. I have had 2 Freyas, the first being exchanged for a new due to other reasons, and both have had 0 issues with noise using quiet tubes.


----------



## hornytoad

Rhamnetin said:


> So the general consensus is that the Freya can be very noisy in tube gain mode, even with very good tubes? Thankfully Schiit has a return policy so I can test it out and return it if I don't like it. One of the main reasons I am interested in the Freya as a preamp is because in tube gain mode it converts a SE signal into balanced, which is how I'd use it primarily. But I hate high noise floors, and I don't want it to degrade the audio signal from a Chord Hugo 2 or to a HeadAmp GS-X Mk2. Does the Freya sound right for me?


Well if you have high sensitivity speakers , you may have issues.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Rhamnetin said:


> So the general consensus is that the Freya can be very noisy in tube gain mode, even with very good tubes? Thankfully Schiit has a return policy so I can test it out and return it if I don't like it. One of the main reasons I am interested in the Freya as a preamp is because in tube gain mode it converts a SE signal into balanced, which is how I'd use it primarily. But I hate high noise floors, and I don't want it to degrade the audio signal from a Chord Hugo 2 or to a HeadAmp GS-X Mk2. Does the Freya sound right for me?



What speakers are you using?  The higher the sensitivity the more likely you'll hear noise.  This isn't unique to Freya, it's just the reality of using tubes at the sensitive pre-amp stage of the signal.  You absolutely can find tubes that are quiet and noise free (or at least almost), but it can take some patience and experimentation.  If this sounds like a hassle to you rather than fun then the tube gain stage probably isn't going to be your cup of tea.


----------



## Rhamnetin

Xcalibur255 said:


> What speakers are you using?  The higher the sensitivity the more likely you'll hear noise.  This isn't unique to Freya, it's just the reality of using tubes at the sensitive pre-amp stage of the signal.  You absolutely can find tubes that are quiet and noise free (or at least almost), but it can take some patience and experimentation.  If this sounds like a hassle to you rather than fun then the tube gain stage probably isn't going to be your cup of tea.



Going to be using either Magnepans or MartinLogan ESLs, most likely the Magnepans. Low sensitivity either way though.


----------



## LouS

Rhamnetin said:


> Going to be using either Magnepans or MartinLogan ESLs, most likely the Magnepans. Low sensitivity either way though.



I have B&W 801M's with caps bypassed using Audyn True Copper caps. I have not had such issues except a couple of bad tubes. I have an Audio Research LS15, I used VCaps to bypass it's caps, and a Coda 05R which is full of Black Gate, VCaps, etc. Both have soft recovery rectifier, etc. The Freya with zero mods blows them away with a pair of Raytheons with the T looking support in the bottom section of the tube, and a pair of Ken Rads, good Ken Rads are not easy to find, they tend to be microphonic.


----------



## hornytoad

Rhamnetin said:


> Going to be using either Magnepans or MartinLogan ESLs, most likely the Magnepans. Low sensitivity either way though.[/QUOT
> You will be fine with the Magnepans but the Martin Logan's sensitivty of 91db I'm not so sure. Anything higher than 92-93  ,definitely not.


----------



## Mondo Caliente

I use Klipsch Heresy III speakers rated at 99db (alegedly) and the Freya is utterly quiet (zero hum or hiss in any mode) and has been that way with all the tubes I've tried including the stock whatever they are, new Tung Sols, Tung Sols with Sylvania chrome domes in the front, and now using NOS Sylvanias in both spots…I use low noise stuff here and there….power supplies, a Humbuster III, old but trusty power conditioner, decent cables with the Freya remaining quiet as the proverbial mouse, assuming mouses are quiet...


----------



## hornytoad

Mondo Caliente said:


> I use Klipsch Heresy III speakers rated at 99db (alegedly) and the Freya is utterly quiet (zero hum or hiss in any mode) and has been that way with all the tubes I've tried including the stock whatever they are, new Tung Sols, Tung Sols with Sylvania chrome domes in the front, and now using NOS Sylvanias in both spots…I use low noise stuff here and there….power supplies, a Humbuster III, old but trusty power conditioner, decent cables with the Freya remaining quiet as the proverbial mouse, assuming mouses are quiet...


Your lucky .


----------



## buke9

With stock tubes I only get a bit of noise that I only can hear at the speaker ( a foot or so away). Polk LSi15 from a Adcom GFA-555(which is now died so I’m ampless).


----------



## US Blues

buke9 said:


> With stock tubes I only get a bit of noise that I only can hear at the speaker ( a foot or so away). Polk LSi15 from a Adcom GFA-555(which is now died so I’m ampless).



Order up a Vidar or two to replace that Adcom. You'll be a happy camper.


----------



## LouS

buke9 said:


> With stock tubes I only get a bit of noise that I only can hear at the speaker ( a foot or so away). Polk LSi15 from a Adcom GFA-555(which is now died so I’m ampless).



Usually the load, speakers in this case, is what kills the amp, especially if you lost one channel. You need to be sure that your speakers are okay before you hook up another amp to them. A


US Blues said:


> Order up a Vidar or two to replace that Adcom. You'll be a happy camper.



After he makes sure that the speaker(s) didn't kill the amp!


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## buke9

Well I had a pair of Vidar’s on order but after a month and then said to be a month or two I canceled my order. Had other places the money needed to go. Everything was fine till I hooked up my Yggy to the Freya and then the Adcom died. I did it with balanced connections from the Yggy to the Freya.


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## Xcalibur255

Rhamnetin said:


> Going to be using either Magnepans or MartinLogan ESLs, most likely the Magnepans. Low sensitivity either way though.



You shouldn't have too much trouble finding a nice set of NOS 6NS7 that are quiet in that application.  But it's not realistic to expect total silence from a tube pre-amp stage.


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## jeffrt (May 21, 2018)

Rhamnetin said:


> So the general consensus is that the Freya can be very noisy in tube gain mode, even with very good tubes? Thankfully Schiit has a return policy so I can test it out and return it if I don't like it. One of the main reasons I am interested in the Freya as a preamp is because in tube gain mode it converts a SE signal into balanced, which is how I'd use it primarily. But I hate high noise floors, and I don't want it to degrade the audio signal from a Chord Hugo 2 or to a HeadAmp GS-X Mk2. Does the Freya sound right for me?



As several people have already said, No, that is not the consensus.
I can only hear the barest of hums, if my er is withing 3-4" of my speaker, J. M. Reynaud Twins, about 88 sensitivity. and I also have tubes (5963s or 12AU7s or 6829s) in the input stage of my amps.
I use new, remakes of Tung-Sol 6SN7GTBs in all 4 spots; I also use all XLR (balanced) cables as inputs to the Freya and as output.


----------



## jeffrt

Xcalibur255 said:


> You shouldn't have too much trouble finding a nice set of NOS 6NS7 that are quiet in that application.  But it's not realistic to expect total silence from a tube pre-amp stage.



I agree.
I don't think it's totally necessary to find NOS tubes, but a set of Sylvania NOS 6SN7TB tubes from the 50s have also worked for me in my system.


----------



## sam6550a

LouS said:


> Usually the load, speakers in this case, is what kills the amp, especially if you lost one channel. You need to be sure that your speakers are okay before you hook up another amp to them. A
> 
> 
> After he makes sure that the speaker(s) didn't kill the amp!


Any amp designed in the last 25 years or so is made to protect itself from shorts, opens, weird impedance loads, and inept users. If the speakers caused a modern amp to fail, it would be highly unusual.


----------



## LouS

sam6550a said:


> Any amp designed in the last 25 years or so is made to protect itself from shorts, opens, weird impedance loads, and inept users. If the speakers caused a modern amp to fail, it would be highly unusual.



Even many older ones were "supposed" to protected. It's always worth checking, besides, I really haven't kept up with Adcom amps over the years. Back in the day I never heard one that had dimensionality. I always thought it had to be due to the capacitors they used because it's hard to imagine Nelson Pass designing such an amp, but I never did recap one, so it's still just a theory. Anyway, I pretty much dismissed them after figuring out that that was the common factor in the systems I heard that lacked dimensionality.


----------



## Mondo Caliente

Schiit Lokis are so cheap everybody should have one, and mine (usually "out of the loop" as they say) is a great way to test for hum or hiss from tubes or anything else. Unless you need balanced capabilities, the Loki is sort of a gift.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

Question for you guys experienced using the Freya with LISST. What's the sound difference between using 4 LISST units vs 2 clean tubes + 2 LISST units on the drive side?


----------



## trappedintime (May 21, 2018)

I feel shamed for not paying more attention to the benefits of socket savers. I'd not kept up with this thread after I got my Freya(s) last year. I'd tried a number of NOS tubes and they all ended up being microphonic, especially my Kenrad VT-231's which seemed to have the best tonality. Anyway, I kind of stopped paying too much attention to tube rolling and mainly used JFET mode with positive, but slightly bland results. A couple weeks ago I read back through some posts in the past few months and read positive things about socket savers remedying microphonic tubes in Freya. I got them in today from Tube Monger and low and behold, my microphonics and noise have disappeared. I turned the pot to max and I couldn't hear anything. That had never happened with my Freyas. I thought something was wrong momentarily! But yes, they're running that quiet in my system now. I've swapped in 4 VT-231's, 2 Bad Boys and 2 Chrome Domes with 2 Kenrads in the follower position, and they all sound silent. It's doubtful I'm going back to JFET, but it's a certainty I'm buying another set of SS's and getting them into my second Freya!


----------



## EELawson

trappedintime said:


> I feel shamed for not paying more attention to the benefits of socket savers. I'd not kept up with this thread after I got my Freya(s) last year. I'd tried a number of NOS tubes and they all ended up being microphonic, especially my Kenrad VT-231's which seemed to have the best tonality. Anyway, I kind of stopped paying too much attention to tube rolling and mainly used JFET mode with positive, but slightly bland results. A couple weeks ago I read back through some posts in the past few months and read positive things about socket savers remedying microphonic tubes in Freya. I got them in today from Tube Monger and low and behold, my microphonics and noise have disappeared. I turned the pot to max and I couldn't hear anything. That had never happened with my Freyas. I thought something was wrong momentarily! But yes, they're running that quiet in my system now. I've swapped in 4 VT-231's, 2 Bad Boys and 2 Chrome Domes with 2 Kenrads in the follower position, and they all sound silent. It's doubtful I'm going back to JFET, but it's a certainty I'm buying another set of SS's and getting them into my second Freya!



Which socket savers did you get?


----------



## trappedintime

EELawson said:


> Which socket savers did you get?


I ordered the OCTAL-NOVIB GE-OMRON from Tube Monger


----------



## Byronb

For me the supplied tubes are very noisy. I replaced mine with the LISST and I am a happy camper.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome (Jun 3, 2018)

Hey guys, shameless plug but you Freya owners want to roll tubes I'll do $196 total shipped with Paypal (or $186 gifted) for all three tube pairs below. USA only for the special.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/fs-...-tubes-in-pairs-6sn7-works-with-freya.880241/


----------



## socklosk

I just received my Noval tube savers ($17 from China with quick delivery) and I was wondering how in the heck do I remove them from my Freya? Do I have to take the cover off of my Freya?


----------



## jeffrt

socklosk said:


> I just received my Noval tube savers ($17 from China with quick delivery) and I was wondering how in the heck do I remove them from my Freya? Do I have to take the cover off of my Freya?



Do not remove the cover. 1. It voids the warranty. 2. You will never get it back on with micro tools, 4 hands and the patience of Job.

As for removal, try a long nose pliers or an industrial tweezers.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001HBXE18/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o05_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


----------



## sam6550a

jeffrt said:


> Do not remove the cover. 1. It voids the warranty. 2. You will never get it back on with micro tools, 4 hands and the patience of Job.
> 
> As for removal, try a long nose pliers or an industrial tweezers.
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001HBXE18/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o05_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


Why even try to remove them?


----------



## socklosk

sam6550a said:


> Why even try to remove them?


Yes, there is not really a reason to remove them now, but maybe somewhere down the line.


----------



## Xcalibur255

I've been watching the Schiit website for a couple of months now waiting for Freya to come off backorder status.  Seems like every two weeks somebody just bumps the date on the page out an additional two weeks.  Right now it still says "backordered to 6-6" so either they are so slammed nobody even has time to update the page anymore or they are finally getting some built again.

Maybe I should just buy one and see what kind of email I get afterwards.


----------



## Mondo Caliente

Now that's a risk free proposition! Order a Freya with the understanding they're too oversold, and bask in the feeling that you've made a great choice that ultimately costs nothing because they can't get it to you. Win win. Also, I second the "don't open a Freya" thing as that's exactly what I did to apply color to the too bright LEDs, which led (no pun here) to hours of mind blowing frustration to get the LEDs lined up again…I did eventually do that, but man…whew...


----------



## jeffrt

sam6550a said:


> Why even try to remove them?



Ask the original poster. Don't ask me. I only gave my opinion.


----------



## jeffrt

Mondo Caliente said:


> Now that's a risk free proposition! Order a Freya with the understanding they're too oversold, and bask in the feeling that you've made a great choice that ultimately costs nothing because they can't get it to you. Win win. Also, I second the "don't open a Freya" thing as that's exactly what I did to apply color to the too bright LEDs, which led (no pun here) to hours of mind blowing frustration to get the LEDs lined up again…I did eventually do that, but man…whew...



After 2 hours of playing those little lights, I almost gave up, took an axe to it and just ordered another one. It would have been simpler. However, I continued and eventually got it workable. 

Hard to believe it's as neutral as it is with tubes. 6SN7s and their 9 pin equivalent, the 6CG7, are the most neutral driver/input tubes I have ever experienced. I almost wish it had slightly a more tube-like sound. I have never measured them, but they make me wonder if they have an 2nd order harmonics at all.


----------



## LouS

jeffrt said:


> Ask the original poster. Don't ask me. I only gave my opinion.



Generally to see if you can easily upgrade parts. If you work on electronics you can get them lined up without too much difficulty, but it is tedious work when they are made that way. Getting them lined up, and sticking out just a little helps.


----------



## jeffrt

LouS said:


> Generally to see if you can easily upgrade parts. If you work on electronics you can get them lined up without too much difficulty, but it is tedious work when they are made that way. Getting them lined up, and sticking out just a little helps.



What helped me on the buttons (hard to hold in place) was a piece of tape on the outside holding them in place, while I "played" with the LEDs. What I saw when I first opened it up, was totally unexpected. Such is life.


----------



## Xcalibur255

jeffrt said:


> After 2 hours of playing those little lights, I almost gave up, took an axe to it and just ordered another one. It would have been simpler. However, I continued and eventually got it workable.
> 
> Hard to believe it's as neutral as it is with tubes. 6SN7s and their 9 pin equivalent, the 6CG7, are the most neutral driver/input tubes I have ever experienced. I almost wish it had slightly a more tube-like sound. I have never measured them, but they make me wonder if they have an 2nd order harmonics at all.



Some of this has to do with the operating points Jason chose.  It's certainly possible to make these tubes sound "tubey" depending upon how they are biased.  This being a pre-amp I would assume maximum linearity was of course the goal.

I'd be curious to know how many volts are on the plate of both tube sets, and at what current.  It would give a good idea of how long one could expect the tubes to last in this application when left on 24/7.  If you coast them enough these tubes can practically last forever, but they are not as linear when operated that way.


----------



## jeffrt

Xcalibur255 said:


> Some of this has to do with the operating points Jason chose.  It's certainly possible to make these tubes sound "tubey" depending upon how they are biased.  This being a pre-amp I would assume maximum linearity was of course the goal.
> 
> I'd be curious to know how many volts are on the plate of both tube sets, and at what current.  It would give a good idea of how long one could expect the tubes to last in this application when left on 24/7.  If you coast them enough these tubes can practically last forever, but they are not as linear when operated that way.



Understood.
As for 24/7, I wouldn't dare. Mine runs pretty warm to almost hot, but not quite. They say in the manual, not to leave it on if you not using it. If I'm not going to playing music for 2 hours or more, then I turn it off. My amps, which use tubes as input drivers, run a high percentage of their power in Class A; so they also run on the warmer side. Their cooling blocks are solid aluminum bars at the 4 corners of each mono-block. I would not touch them with my bare hands after they've been on for 30 minutes. Between the 2/3 devices, I really have t turn them off, if I'm gone for more than 1 hour.. 2 hours is pushing it.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

I've gotten 2 LISST tubes on the driver side and I'm liking what I hear! Waiting for the other 2 to arrive so I can test all 4 LISST but as is with 2 tubes and 2 LISST, it sounds fantastic driving an Atlas 2.


----------



## Xcalibur255

I usually warm up any tube gear at least two hours before listening.  With Freya and it's given function I will probably just leave it on all the time.  I was under the impression that was Schiit's intention for it too, just like with Yggdrasil.  Tubes don't sound their best unless they are very thermally stable.  By the time it actually sounds good I'd probably be done with it for the evening and be switching it back off, so the alternative is to just let it run.

I can see why a lot of people would find that excessive, but I'm still surprised by how many people in this thread turn their Freyas on and off.  If it were a power amp I probably would too, but for a pre I feel it's more important to keep the thermals correct so it can do it's job optimally.  The power consumption is not as high as an amplifier so there's less guilt in it too.


----------



## Mondo Caliente

The transformer area of my Freya gets far warmer than the tube area. I don't think there's any advantage to be gained from leaving it on all the time as it will absolutely kill the tubes far faster than turning it off when not being listened to, and I haven't noticed it sounding any better beyond an initial warm up of 20 minutes or even less….there's a lot of mythology regarding components supposedly sounding better with constant power up, and its "optimal" state can be influenced by far more subtle things like the AC quality in your area, humidity, the rest of the system, and the listening ability of the user.


----------



## hornytoad

Mondo Caliente said:


> The transformer area of my Freya gets far warmer than the tube area. I don't think there's any advantage to be gained from leaving it on all the time as it will absolutely kill the tubes far faster than turning it off when not being listened to, and I haven't noticed it sounding any better beyond an initial warm up of 20 minutes or even less….there's a lot of mythology regarding components supposedly sounding better with constant power up, and its "optimal" state can be influenced by far more subtle things like the AC quality in your area, humidity, the rest of the system, and the listening ability of the user.


No doubt . Humidity levels in particular alter the sound environment more than people realize .i can tell immediately if it’s drier or more humid in my listening area


----------



## LouS

jeffrt said:


> What helped me on the buttons (hard to hold in place) was a piece of tape on the outside holding them in place, while I "played" with the LEDs. What I saw when I first opened it up, was totally unexpected. Such is life.



I just held it facing down, but then I work on strange gear for a living. As long as you don't DO anything to the preamp there is no reason to void a warranty. Mine had no sticker, I think that I read that earlier ones had tamper proof labels, but I believe that someone said that Schiit relented about voiding warranties, but since I can'tsay that Schiit said it, don't count on that being true... It is difficult to imagine that they would void a warranty without evidence of real tampering. Looking something over and tampering are not one in the same things.


----------



## LouS

Xcalibur255 said:


> I usually warm up any tube gear at least two hours before listening.  With Freya and it's given function I will probably just leave it on all the time.  I was under the impression that was Schiit's intention for it too, just like with Yggdrasil.  Tubes don't sound their best unless they are very thermally stable.  By the time it actually sounds good I'd probably be done with it for the evening and be switching it back off, so the alternative is to just let it run.
> 
> I can see why a lot of people would find that excessive, but I'm still surprised by how many people in this thread turn their Freyas on and off.  If it were a power amp I probably would too, but for a pre I feel it's more important to keep the thermals correct so it can do it's job optimally.  The power consumption is not as high as an amplifier so there's less guilt in it too.



If they were able to faithfully reproduce NOS tubes at a reasonable price I might consider doing this too.


----------



## jeffrt

Xcalibur255 said:


> I usually warm up any tube gear at least two hours before listening.  With Freya and it's given function I will probably just leave it on all the time.  I was under the impression that was Schiit's intention for it too, just like with Yggdrasil.  Tubes don't sound their best unless they are very thermally stable.  By the time it actually sounds good I'd probably be done with it for the evening and be switching it back off, so the alternative is to just let it run.
> 
> I can see why a lot of people would find that excessive, but I'm still surprised by how many people in this thread turn their Freyas on and off.  If it were a power amp I probably would too, but for a pre I feel it's more important to keep the thermals correct so it can do it's job optimally.  The power consumption is not as high as an amplifier so there's less guilt in it too.



The Freya manual says:
Q: Can I leave it on all the time?
A: You can, BUT it'll dramatically shorten the tube lifespan. We recommend you turn it on and off as you need it.

I agree with subsequent posters, that most tubes, once broken in, stabilize fairly quickly. I'd suggest 15 - 20 minutes, maximum of 1 hour, which is pushing it, as far as I am concerned.


----------



## jeffrt

LouS said:


> I just held it facing down, but then I work on strange gear for a living. As long as you don't DO anything to the preamp there is no reason to void a warranty. Mine had no sticker, I think that I read that earlier ones had tamper proof labels, but I believe that someone said that Schiit relented about voiding warranties, but since I can'tsay that Schiit said it, don't count on that being true... It is difficult to imagine that they would void a warranty without evidence of real tampering. Looking something over and tampering are not one in the same things.



I agree with you, in principle. I suspect Schiit may also. In the warranty section, they say, "The warranty may not apply if the product is modified or tampered with. (this could be interpreted several way. "Tampered with" could be just removing the top, as we did ....). "is damaged by negligence, accident, unreasonable use, coffee or by other causes unrelated to defective materials or workmanship."

Some of that is open to interpretation.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Mondo Caliente said:


> The transformer area of my Freya gets far warmer than the tube area. I don't think there's any advantage to be gained from leaving it on all the time as it will absolutely kill the tubes far faster than turning it off when not being listened to, and I haven't noticed it sounding any better beyond an initial warm up of 20 minutes or even less….there's a lot of mythology regarding components supposedly sounding better with constant power up, and its "optimal" state can be influenced by far more subtle things like the AC quality in your area, humidity, the rest of the system, and the listening ability of the user.


I'm not quoting tube mythology.  I'm just stating my personal opinion based on my own experience with tube gear.  With all three of my current tube amps, if I turn them on and begin listening immediately I can absolutely hear the sound steadily improve for the first three hours, and can usually hear additional subtle improvment up until past five hours.  If it's been on all day then those are usually great listening sessions.  

Two hours of warmup is what I settled on for my routine as a compromise to not be excessively wasteful.  I know people who refuse to turn their tube amps off, or will insist on warming them up for 24 hours before listening to them because they don't think it's worth listening before that.  I do feel it's worth the two hours to get the high end reasonably free of grain and glare before listening.  But that's just my experience and preference.  I'm not asserting it as general fact.


----------



## Xcalibur255 (Jun 8, 2018)

jeffrt said:


> The Freya manual says:
> Q: Can I leave it on all the time?
> A: You can, BUT it'll dramatically shorten the tube lifespan. We recommend you turn it on and off as you need it.
> 
> I agree with subsequent posters, that most tubes, once broken in, stabilize fairly quickly. I'd suggest 15 - 20 minutes, maximum of 1 hour, which is pushing it, as far as I am concerned.



I'm guessing you would get roughly 3 years out of the tubes, maybe 4, leaving the unit on all the time.  Assuming nothing else goes wrong with the tube before that, which it often will.  If the operating points are aggressive and Jason has the 6SN7 at or near it's maximum dissipation rating then it would be quite a lot less than this.  Probably not even 2 years.  But my gut feeling is he doesn't have them running quite that hard.  If the OP points are very conservative then that 3-4 year guess might be a low ball even.

My point is, unless you're using pricey desirable NOS tubes, I personally feel the benefit of keeping the unit on is worth the cost in the tubes it uses up over time.  I can see why others would feel differently of course.


----------



## Mondo Caliente

Having used tube amps for about 50 years, I can say with certainty that leaving one on will absolutely kill the tubes perhaps 3 times faster than otherwise.


----------



## Xcalibur255

I agree, I'm just saying it's worth it for some fussy people like myself.  

I ordered the Freya.  When I get it I suppose I'll play around with warm-up times and see how much impact I can hear.  I'm not dead set on leaving it on all the time if there isn't enough sound quality benefit to justify it.  I'll just have to wait and see.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

Get the 4 LISST "tubes".. Problem solved.


----------



## Mondo Caliente

Note that, at least in the case of my Freya, the thing gets hottest over the transformers for some reason (they're close to the lid maybe) so there's that. And also I don't understand the point of the LISST things as they're not tubes, and the Freya has 2 other non tube settings already….is it gain?  Is it solving irrational tube fear issues? Or maybe they're for keeping people from becoming tube freaks, as that sort of makes sense since clearly collecting tubes can be highly addictive.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

The Freya with 4 LISST does sound better than using the onboard JFET mode, so in a sense it's like the tubes that never stop giving? Using the tube mode also turns SE signal into balanced so the LISST will allow you to do that without tube-like sound. AND you can always just leave the sucker on and not fear of burning up your tubes life.


----------



## jeffrt

Mondo Caliente said:


> Note that, at least in the case of my Freya, the thing gets hottest over the transformers for some reason (they're close to the lid maybe) so there's that. And also I don't understand the point of the LISST things as they're not tubes, and the Freya has 2 other non tube settings already….is it gain?  Is it solving irrational tube fear issues? Or maybe they're for keeping people from becoming tube freaks, as that sort of makes sense since clearly collecting tubes can be highly addictive.



Here on the Schiit LISST replacement page, 
http://www.schiit.com/products/lisst-tubes
they say just that,
"_Have you ever wanted a solid-state Freya, Mjolnir 2, Lyr 2, Saga, or Lyr? Then a pair of Schiit LISST (linear, integrated solid-state tube) is what you need. Just plug a pair of these small metal cans into the tube sockets, and you have a solid-state amplifier, with zero concerns about tube life and tube variability._"

and,
"*Sounds Just Like Tubes! Or Not.*
_Solid-state tube replacements aren’t a new idea. However, most of them go on and on about how they sound “just like tubes.” We’re not going to say that. We will say that they sound very good. We will also say they have lower distortion than tubes, though with a similar overall profile. Beyond that, it’s up to your own perceptions._"

I have not tried them myself; I see no reason to as the 6SN7s, to my ears, are so linear and so neutral  sometimes I wonder if I'm even listening to tubes.


----------



## dave615

Hi everybody - I have been lurking for a while and have read most of this thread. I have a couple of questions.....

I am wanting to order a Freya, but their site says back ordered to 6/6. Do you think I should go ahead and order, or wait until it says "in stock". I emailed them and they said go ahead and order (it was a pretty vague answer). Has anyone heard how long it's going to be, one week - one month - 3 months?

Also, has anyone heard anything about a Freya 2? It would be nice to turn the tube section off so you don't have to pull the tubes when in passive or JFET. I would hate to buy and then the next month a new model comes out. How long did it take for Schiit to update other products? I think the Freya has been out for about a year and a half?

Sorry if these questions have been covered already, and thanks.


----------



## deserat

dave615 said:


> Hi everybody - I have been lurking for a while and have read most of this thread. I have a couple of questions.....
> 
> I am wanting to order a Freya, but their site says back ordered to 6/6. Do you think I should go ahead and order, or wait until it says "in stock". I emailed them and they said go ahead and order (it was a pretty vague answer). Has anyone heard how long it's going to be, one week - one month - 3 months?
> 
> ...



I wouldn't expect a Freya 2 anytime in the near future. Frey isn't that old and I don't think Schiit has up'd the version in less than 3 years. Though, ya, give the price of good tubes. I'd love to see that feature.


----------



## LouS

dave615 said:


> Hi everybody - I have been lurking for a while and have read most of this thread. I have a couple of questions.....
> 
> I am wanting to order a Freya, but their site says back ordered to 6/6. Do you think I should go ahead and order, or wait until it says "in stock". I emailed them and they said go ahead and order (it was a pretty vague answer). Has anyone heard how long it's going to be, one week - one month - 3 months?
> 
> ...



Here's the thing, if you don't get on the list, and they have more people on the list than they have preamps, you may not find one available for some time. I'd get on the list, you can always tell them you changed your mind.


----------



## dave615

Thanks for the replies, I went ahead and ordered. Are these socket savers the ones that fit through the top cover holes?

https://www.partsconnexion.com/SOCKET-74489.html

I guess they are made in China, is the quality ok?

Thanks, David


----------



## LouS

dave615 said:


> Thanks for the replies, I went ahead and ordered. Are these socket savers the ones that fit through the top cover holes?
> 
> https://www.partsconnexion.com/SOCKET-74489.html
> 
> ...



I think that they are all, or nearly all, now made in China. I had seen some NOS types that were US made, but I think they were bakelite, an old inferior plastic. I bought ceramic ones from China on eBay. I personally like ceramic types better, YMMV.


----------



## jeffrt (Jun 13, 2018)

dave615 said:


> Thanks for the replies, I went ahead and ordered. Are these socket savers the ones that fit through the top cover holes?
> 
> https://www.partsconnexion.com/SOCKET-74489.html
> 
> ...



Probably, but if you buy direct from Ebay, from China, they'll be a lot cheaper. I paid $12 for 4 with $3.99 for delivery. It took about 10 -14 days with zero problems. $6.95 each plus delivery from Parts Connexion seems a bit steep. And they probably ordered a lot of 100 or 500 and got them even cheaper.

The only USA made ones are offered by Tube Monger and they're steep, about $35 each. See
http://www.tubemonger.com/SearchResults.asp?Search=socket+saver&Submit=


----------



## dave615

I found these on Ebay, I can get 4 for about $12 or $13 with shipping:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2pc-8Pin-N...766989?hash=item3cc4bd218d:g:dsQAAMXQslhRjanY

They look exactly the same as the parts connection ones. Probably the same factory in China cranking out millions of them. I just want to make sure they will fit through the top cover holes, don't want to void the warranty by removing the cover. Does anybody know for sure?

The ones from tubemonger are tempting, but that's a lot of money. I could get some damn nice NOS tubes for that, that's gonna be next.

Thanks, David


----------



## Xcalibur255

dave615 said:


> Hi everybody - I have been lurking for a while and have read most of this thread. I have a couple of questions.....
> 
> I am wanting to order a Freya, but their site says back ordered to 6/6. Do you think I should go ahead and order, or wait until it says "in stock". I emailed them and they said go ahead and order (it was a pretty vague answer). Has anyone heard how long it's going to be, one week - one month - 3 months?
> 
> ...


It didn't stop me from ordering one last Sunday.  Haven't heard anything so far, but I also had Yggdrasil upgrades in my cart.  If the order has to be processed complete then I guess I'm waiting 2-3 months until I reach my place in line on the Yggy upgrade queue before the Freya ships.  *shrugs*


----------



## DrJam

dave615 said:


> Thanks for the replies, I went ahead and ordered. Are these socket savers the ones that fit through the top cover holes?
> 
> https://www.partsconnexion.com/SOCKET-74489.html
> 
> ...



Those are the ones I have.  They work fine in Freya.  
Somewhere back in this thread I think there was mention of some socket savers that don't fit, and I think they looked the same, or at least close enough to appear the same, as these.
So, there are a few varieties that have slightly different diameters: some fit, some don't.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome (Jun 15, 2018)

I ordered two pairs of LISST from Schiit for my Freya, they send me two singles. They send me another pair and these come in, obviously used and perhaps a return pair.

I ask to send it back for a refund and they say no return shipping and restocking fee. What Schiit service thus far. 2 goofs on previous shippings and on the 3rd I get a used pair of LISST tubes.


  

Cleaner stills:


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

Does anyone know of decently priced Schiit Freya alternatives by other manufacturers? Could be all SS and priced $500-1000 with multiple outs (balanced not necessary).


----------



## LouS

Soundsgoodtome said:


> Does anyone know of decently priced Schiit Freya alternatives by other manufacturers? Could be all SS and priced $500-1000 with multiple outs (balanced not necessary).



I don't believe that there is any such animal. If I were you, I would file a complaint with the Better Business Bureau. Schiit will likely do the right thing under such pressure. Sad it had to come to this, but it is what it is!


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

Not sure if something at this scale warrants a complaint with the bbb, i suppose it is all relative and it's more the principle. 

I will see how they respond to that last e-mail. This isn't the first time I had issues with Schiit, I've sent back mt Freya 2x for warranty because they said it had no issues the first time around when it would change volume on it's own (shown and proved with video proof). The second time I demanded a new unit and they did replace it. 



LouS said:


> I don't believe that there is any such animal. If I were you, I would file a complaint with the Better Business Bureau. Schiit will likely do the right thing under such pressure. Sad it had to come to this, but it is what it is!


----------



## Xcalibur255

Why does the fact that these tubes were inserted into a socket a few times reduce their value?  You can literally do this thousands of times before the mechanical wear becomes an issue.  It has no functional effect on their operation.  Likewise with the internal parts.  These are solid state devices and a few hours of use represents no meaningful reduction in their service life whatsoever.

I mean, I get it, I'm a pretty picky person myself, but if the Lisst tubes you received _work_ _correctly_  and are not damaged or worn in some unusual way I just don't see what the issue is?  To call these parts "worn out" because they were used a few times already is an exaggeration to put it mildly.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome (Jun 15, 2018)

Well then, you shouldn't have problems paying full price MSRP for used equipment in the classifieds as long as they're in very good to excellent condition with that logic. I wonder how many have that same thought...

Do you think anyone will buy these LISST tubes used in the classifieds for $100 on the pair?



Xcalibur255 said:


> Why does the fact that these tubes were inserted into a socket a few times reduce their value?  You can literally do this thousands of times before the mechanical wear becomes an issue.  It has no functional effect on their operation.  Likewise with the internal parts.  These are solid state devices and a few hours of use represents no meaningful reduction in their service life whatsoever.
> 
> I mean, I get it, I'm a pretty picky person myself, but if the Lisst tubes you received _work_ _correctly_  and are not damaged or worn in some unusual way I just don't see what the issue is?  To call these parts "worn out" because they were used a few times already is an exaggeration to put it mildly.


----------



## Jose R

Sorry to hear about your issues.

But, I ordered a quad set of the LISST tubes. When they arrived, I didn't even think to inspect the metal pins to make sure they were pristine. I just inserted them into the preamp. And haven't touched them since.

I'm quite happy with them when using single-ended sources. But, since I don't need the added gain, I switch over to passive mode when I use my balanced sources.


----------



## dave615

I have a Freya on order, will report back on problems with build quality, etc.


----------



## gsimjansen

Hi,

This is my first post here. I’m following this thread for quite a while.

I have a Freya for some time now and added 1 Vidar recently. I like the sound I get from this combo after replacing the stock tubes with better ones: one matched pair 6SN7 Sylvania Blackplate and one matched pair 6SN7 Raytheon GTA.
I tried tube savers to reduce heat, but I had to remove them as I got some microphony using these.

Switching off the power causes some problems and I wonder if this is normal and if not what I can do about it.

As the power switches of Freya and Vidar are on the back I initially used  a power strip with power switch to switch both on and off. When switching off I get a loud bang from my speakers (DC?). When muting the Freya before switching off the bang gets less.
I replaced the power strip by one that has a separate switch for each power outlet. Switching off the Vidar first gives a soft plop on the speakers.
I assume the Freya is the cause of the loud bang when not muting it before switching off.

What can be done to stop this behaviour?

I hope someone of this community can help me here.


----------



## TheSnafu

Not sure if it's good idea to do that, power switches are there to be used or left on. Yes they are unpractical back there.

Equipment should be turned on in this order: first everything else on (DACs players etc), then preamp and power amps last. 

cheers


----------



## gsimjansen

Switching on is not the problem as both units are muted. The problem is switching off. It seems that Freya causes a lot of DC at the Vidar output when not muted at switch off.


----------



## jeffrt

gsimjansen said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have a Freya for some time now and added 1 Vidar recently. I like the sound I get from this combo after replacing the stock tubes with better ones: one matched pair 6SN7 Sylvania Blackplate and one matched pair 6SN7 Raytheon GTA.
> 
> ...



This is true for as long as I have been using separates:

You should never turn a tubed preamp and the amp to which it is connected on and off at the same time.  (Actually that probably holds for solid state preamps too.)

The turn on sequence is preamp first, waiting for the Freya's flashing light to go out, assuring you that the tubes have stabilized. Then turn the amp on. Turn off sequence is the opposite. Turn off the Vidar first, waiting maybe 15 - 45 seconds for the capacitors to discharge. Then turn the Freya off. Turning them off simultaneously via any means will almost always mean that sharp pop through your speakers. Eventually you will damage them. 

If you must turn off preamp and amp at the same time, buy an integrated amp or a receiver. (no sarcasm intended.)


----------



## gsimjansen

I will keep that in mind. Thanks


----------



## Xcalibur255

Most Schiit gear is microprocessor controlled and goes through a start-up and shut-down procedure.  The output is disconnected at these times to prevent what you are experiencing right now.  Your surge strip trick is bypassing these protections I'm afraid.


----------



## gsimjansen (Jun 18, 2018)

I don't see how the 'surge strip trick' can bypass microprocessor controlled protection in the Freya. The output of the Freya is disconnected only when the mute button is pressed. When I power off the Vidar only I hear a soft plop which means that the Vidar output is not disconnected or disconnected too slow I guess.
What I do now is switch off the Vidar first and the Freya second. This way my speakers will survive.


----------



## Xcalibur255 (Jun 18, 2018)

The output is disconnected at initial power-on, and connects after a period of 40 seconds or so.  It tells you this right in the manual.  No doubt it's to allow the tube gain stage to come on bias properly, amongst other things.  If you have the switch on and interrupt power another way you are not allowing the device to go through its startup and shutdown steps.  The output will be active the moment the switch is flipped at the surge strip.

As with all things in life, do what works for you.  I'm merely providing you with information.


----------



## gsimjansen

Got it. Thanks!


----------



## KoshNaranek (Jun 19, 2018)

gsimjansen said:


> Hi,
> 
> This is my first post here. I’m following this thread for quite a while.
> 
> ...


This is what I use

http://www.microcenter.com/product/...rge_Protector_3400_Joules_-_8_ft_Cord_-_Black

Edit: In case I was not clear, this device sequences the power of audio devices. It leaves DAC powered up, turns on preamp first, and there is even an adjustable time delay for turning on the amps. It does the power down sequence in reverse order.


----------



## TheSnafu

gsimjansen said:


> Switching on is not the problem as both units are muted. The problem is switching off. It seems that Freya causes a lot of DC at the Vidar output when not muted at switch off.



Sorry, i thought it's clear that turning off goes in reversed order. 

I previously had Freya and i returned it because of high floor noise (specially with tubes). I recall that it gave some kind of "thump" when turning off but it wasn't like bad way or alarming sound that something is wrong.  
When i turn off my power amps they still let signal through a while (Nelson Audio Image M9) until front panel leds dim away. Don't have this "thump" with current pre amp Copland CTA301mkII.

cheers


----------



## dave615

I received my Freya yesterday. Here is what I have in my system:

Onkyo DX-7555 CD player
Adcom GFP-710 Preamp (to be replaced by the Freya obviously)
Adcom GFA-5400 Amp (I know, will be next upgraded. Good for driving 4 ohm speakers though). The amp specs are at the bottom of this page: http://www.users.interport.net/a/d/adcom/manuals/gfa5400.html
Monitor Audio Silver 10 speakers (4 ohm). These are 90 dB sensitivity.

The Freya was packed well, perfect condition, great build quality. Not a mark on it. The stock Russian tubes I got were very clean and looked new. I cleaned the pins on them with alcohol anyway. The Freya sounds great after a few hours even with the NOS Russian tubes. There are no noises or pops - very quiet. Only a very slight hiss you can hear about a foot away from the tweeter. Even lightly tapping on the tubes with a pencil - no noise at all.

The only thing is, to get to a moderately loud volume, I have to turn the volume knob on the Freya to about 3 or 4 o clock. This is pretty loud though - as loud as I would ever listen. I think the limit on the volume knob is about 5 or 5:30. I could get the same volume with the Adcom preamp at about 10 or 11 o clock. Does anyone know why this is? Is the Freya not a good match in this system or is it going to be a problem? Also the GFA 5400 is running a little hotter with the Freya, but not super hot. A noticeable difference when I put my hand on top of it though after pretty high volume. With the Adcom preamp it would get barely warm at all.

The Freya sounds good even after only 12 hours break-in, and the stock tubes. I was just wondering about the volume difference. Is it a gain issue with the amp? I sent Schiit an email yesterday afternoon but might not hear back until Monday.

Thanks, David


----------



## jeffrt

dave615 said:


> I received my Freya yesterday. Here is what I have in my system:
> 
> Onkyo DX-7555 CD player
> Adcom GFP-710 Preamp (to be replaced by the Freya obviously)
> ...



Are you sure the Freya is set to tube (output) mode?  There are 3 output modes: passive, JFET, and tube. Each is louder (more amplification) than the previous. Check the manual. Before hitting the mode (output) button, make sure the volume control is set to very low. If it's on high, because it was in passive mode, setting the output to tube could damage the speakers and your ears!


----------



## dave615

Yes, it was in tube mode. That's another thing I noticed - there wasn't a huge jump in volume between JFET and tube mode. Yes, there was a difference, just not as much as I thought. You can almost switch between them without turning down the volume, I turn it down to be safe though.


----------



## jeffrt

dave615 said:


> Yes, it was in tube mode. That's another thing I noticed - there wasn't a huge jump in volume between JFET and tube mode. Yes, there was a difference, just not as much as I thought. You can almost switch between them without turning down the volume, I turn it down to be safe though.



I cannot do that; for me there was a big jump in volume. Unless someone has a better idea, I'd drop Schiit  note. They answer emails fairly well.


----------



## dave615

Thanks for replying....I will send them an email about that also. I went back and listened again, between passive and JFET there is very little difference. Between JFET and tube - not as big a difference as that review on youtube where the guy switches his between the modes.

I am still concerned that it is not a good match for this amp though. I don't know if that has to do with the input sensitivity of the GFA 5400 (1.125v). 

Thanks, David


----------



## Mondo Caliente (Jul 1, 2018)

I run 2 amps with my Freya, a single ended tube amp for my main speakers, and sometimes a trusty clean Adcom 5300 for outdoor speakers (I stick the speakers in the windows adjacent to the deck so they stay out of weather)…the Adcom is MUCH louder than the 12WPC single ended indoor specific amp so I have a volume control for it (it's outdoor specific so ultimate audio quality isn't as important as my main system, still, it sounds great), and the tube stage of the Freya is pretty hot by multiples over the other 2 stages…so either your Freya isn't "Freying" properly or the Adcom is doing something tawdry.


----------



## jeffrt

dave615 said:


> Thanks for replying....I will send them an email about that also. I went back and listened again, between passive and JFET there is very little difference. Between JFET and tube - not as big a difference as that review on youtube where the guy switches his between the modes.
> 
> I am still concerned that it is not a good match for this amp though. I don't know if that has to do with the input sensitivity of the GFA 5400 (1.125v).
> 
> Thanks, David



Like another said and you implied, it could be your amp. I don't remember Adcom amps being that unusual way back in the early and mid 1990s when they came out, but I don't know enough to say more than that.

Yes, there is a small difference in volume between the passive setting and the JFET buffer. BUT, for me, there is a huge (maybe just the word, "large" is sufficient.) difference between the JFET and the tube output stage.


----------



## dave615

I know I need to upgrade the Adcom amp....so I am looking into the Vidar. I know from doing some reading there might have been some issues with noise or hum from the Vidar. Does anyone know if that was addressed?

I like the Freya though, I know it should improve even more with some NOS Sylvania or Raytheons.

I am guessing that Freya, one Vidar, and Monitor Audio Silver 10 speakers (4 ohm and 90 dB sensitivity) will work together ok?

Thanks to all who have replied.


----------



## Alveric

dave615 said:


> I know I need to upgrade the Adcom amp....so I am looking into the Vidar. I know from doing some reading there might have been some issues with noise or hum from the Vidar. Does anyone know if that was addressed?
> 
> I like the Freya though, I know it should improve even more with some NOS Sylvania or Raytheons.
> 
> ...



With my Freya I drive a modified Adcom 200wpc amp (the 555 I think) (25+ years old) and large electrostatic speakers (Acoustat 2+2) which go less than 1 ohm so are tough to drive. I would strongly consider a SE tube amp if I had easy to drive Monitor Audio speakers like yours. Have not tried the Vidar but it might be overkill for those speakers. I am afraid to try Vidar with electrostatics, it might catch fire or thermal shut down or something...First get some upgraded tubes in that Freya. I am happy with the new Tung-sols.


----------



## DrJam

dave615 said:


> I know I need to upgrade the Adcom amp....so I am looking into the Vidar. I know from doing some reading there might have been some issues with noise or hum from the Vidar. Does anyone know if that was addressed?
> 
> I like the Freya though, I know it should improve even more with some NOS Sylvania or Raytheons.
> 
> ...



I have Oppo 105D -> Freya -> Vidar -> Monitor Silver 8 + sub
For signals that have a reasonable level, I can listen to JFET or passive and get good volume levels.  But for signals such as my cable box which is very low-level, I can get decent volume in those modes with both Freya and Oppo cranked all the way, but to get it loud I have to use tube buffer.  So, like others I can tell a significant gain difference in tube vs JFET or passive.  I haven't run out of gain on any source, including the cable box, when using tube mode.  I've bought a few Sylvania, RCA, GE, Raytheon tubes and all of them are significantly better than the stock (Russian) tubes. I can't comment on the holy grail list of 6SN7 that usually go for >$100 a pair, but I've been satisfied with the pairs I have that go more in the $40-60 range.

I've shut down Freya a couple of times, but I was listening at concert volume and I have a pretty big room with a vaulted ceiling.  

So, I tend to think you'll be OK with one Vidar and the Silver 10, but I don't know how much kick in the chest you're looking for (which is why I have a sub, as it does that at pretty much all volumes.)


----------



## dave615

I heard back from Schiit tech support today that they made a change to bring the tube gain down closer to the passive and JFET levels, so my Freya is working correctly. It's cranked up pretty loud right now with the volume at 3 o clock. I went ahead and ordered two matched pairs of good tubes......two Tung Sols (the vintage made in the US kind), and some Sylvania chrome tops probably from the 50's. It sounds pretty good right now with the stock Russian tubes in it though.


----------



## purehifi192

dave615 said:


> I heard back from Schiit tech support today that they made a change to bring the tube gain down closer to the passive and JFET levels, so my Freya is working correctly. It's cranked up pretty loud right now with the volume at 3 o clock. I went ahead and ordered two matched pairs of good tubes......two Tung Sols (the vintage made in the US kind), and some Sylvania chrome tops probably from the 50's. It sounds pretty good right now with the stock Russian tubes in it though.


Is this in the firmware?  I haven't seen anything about reducing the tube gain from the +6 db it added.  I get minor firmware updates happen, but that seems like something that would have been discussed.  Obviously you're just passing along the message.  Just surprised about not having heard this before.


----------



## Mondo Caliente

My Freya is used with a Dennis Had "Inspire" Firebottle single ended HO (it's a HO…12 watts PC) and the input on that amp needs some gain to get things going so I'm glad the Freya tube stage output is as hot as it is…I can get the passive and FET stages to drive the amp to a loudness level that's enough for my room (99db Klipsch Heresy IIIs help a lot), but without the gain from the tube stage it wouldn't have been a satisfactory match with my amp. Suffice to say the Freya sounds fabulous with the Sylvania Chrome Domes.


----------



## dave615

purehifi192 said:


> Is this in the firmware?  I haven't seen anything about reducing the tube gain from the +6 db it added.  I get minor firmware updates happen, but that seems like something that would have been discussed.  Obviously you're just passing along the message.  Just surprised about not having heard this before.


I just got the Freya last Friday. When switching from JFET to tube, I noticed I wasn't getting as big a jump in volume as others. There is a guy on youtube switching his back and forth and he is getting a huge jump, like almost twice the volume. I was getting like 15 or 20 percent volume increase. Thinking maybe something was wrong, I emailed Schiit. They replied back that they brought the tube gain down, and would be updating the website. I don't know when or how they changed the gain.


----------



## Mondo Caliente

Yeah…it's a large jump to the tube stage in my now "original version" Freya, and if you're using a powerful amp that could be a jolt…they should have increased the output of the other stages (if possible), but I do understand the changes as the large increase in output seemed weird, but I'm actually glad it's there.


----------



## sam6550a

purehifi192 said:


> Is this in the firmware?  I haven't seen anything about reducing the tube gain from the +6 db it added.  I get minor firmware updates happen, but that seems like something that would have been discussed.  Obviously you're just passing along the message.  Just surprised about not having heard this before.


Tube gain is 5x (14 dB) per the spec sheet. Where did you get 6dB from?


----------



## purehifi192

sam6550a said:


> Tube gain is 5x (14 dB) per the spec sheet. Where did you get 6dB from?


Memory.  Thanks for the correction.  Assume you're referring to original Freya gain.  This is what I also experience.  Sounds like that's no longer the case.


----------



## sam6550a

purehifi192 said:


> Is this in the firmware?  I haven't seen anything about reducing the tube gain from the +6 db it added.  I get minor firmware updates happen, but that seems like something that would have been discussed.  Obviously you're just passing along the message.  Just surprised about not having heard this before.


A gain change like that would most probably be a hardware resistor change.


----------



## Jose R

sam6550a said:


> A gain change like that would most probably be a hardware resistor change.



Do we really need to email Schiit to find out what they changed? The website still lists a gain of 5 (14dB) for the tube stage. Is it now a gain of 2, 3 or 4?

I would prefer a lower gain tube stage for my Freya. Although technically speaking, I don’t know how linear the 6SN7s would be with the change of parameters.


----------



## jeffrt

Jose R said:


> Do we really need to email Schiit to find out what they changed? The website still lists a gain of 5 (14dB) for the tube stage. Is it now a gain of 2, 3 or 4?
> 
> I would prefer a lower gain tube stage for my Freya. Although technically speaking, I don’t know how linear the 6SN7s would be with the change of parameters.



Is there one?
I was under the impression that the 6SN7 has the equivalent mu (gain) of a 12AU7 tube. That's fairly low all things considered. There aren't many tubes used in preamps with a lower designed-in gain, as far as I know.


----------



## purehifi192

sam6550a said:


> A gain change like that would most probably be a hardware resistor change.


That's too bad.  I don't mind so much as I normally leave it on the tube setting, but it would be nice to attenuate a bit.  Right now with the volume all the way down, using LISST, into monoblock Vidars powering 85db sensitive speakers, the music is at an audible less than conversation level of loudness.


----------



## Boogie7910 (Aug 7, 2018)

I need something like the Freya to remote control my  volume but I need two balanced outputs instead of Freya's one and also maybe something with EQ tone controls if possible. Anyone know a good option?

Budget is 2k but preferably under


----------



## Boogie7910

edit: accidently quoted myself. where is the delete option


----------



## jerick70

Boogie7910 said:


> I need something like the Freya to remote control my  volume but I need two balanced outputs instead of Freya's one and also maybe something with EQ tone controls if possible. Anyone know a good option?
> 
> Budget is 2k but preferably under


Outside the Freya, balanced preamps are tough to find in that price range, especially with tubes. Unless you find something that's used. I've been looking for a while. 

The closest I've found is a custom Hattor Passive Preamp with the tube stage built into one box. That was $3000 though. You could get the Vishay resistors and probably get close to 2k. I was looking at the AMRG Trans resistors at the time.


----------



## LouS

Boogie7910 said:


> I need something like the Freya to remote control my  volume but I need two balanced outputs instead of Freya's one and also maybe something with EQ tone controls if possible. Anyone know a good option?
> 
> Budget is 2k but preferably under



You need to talk to Roy about his SP14. You want some upgrades, but his preamp is supposed to be a step up, and he may be able to hit your price point. If you go with the metal case, you really ought to be able to get everything but the tone controls. High end doesn't normally have tone controls.

http://www.tubes4hifi.com/don.htm

If you can wait, and want to pay a little more Don Sachs tweaks it out for around 2,200 I believe.


----------



## jerick70

LouS said:


> You need to talk to Roy about his SP14. You want some upgrades, but his preamp is supposed to be a step up, and he may be able to hit your price point. If you go with the metal case, you really ought to be able to get everything but the tone controls. High end doesn't normally have tone controls.
> 
> http://www.tubes4hifi.com/don.htm
> 
> If you can wait, and want to pay a little more Don Sachs tweaks it out for around 2,200 I believe.


These are awesome preamps. I just wish they were balanced.


----------



## LouS

jerick70 said:


> These are awesome preamps. I just wish they were balanced.



With transformers they can be, though I personally would just use Duelund cable and go from XLR to RCA by soldering pins 1 & 3 together, pin 2 being the signal, 1 & 3 being the return, it's a lot less expensive than transformers, and if you think balanced is truly superior, it's only real advantage is impedance matching. If you did a double blind test with audio level matching, I don't believe that anyone could tell the difference as long as it is wired as stated.


----------



## Mondo Caliente

Balanced cables can carry a signal for hundreds of feet without signal degradation (I've used them exclusively in pro audio for decades), but in short runs (3 to 6 feet maybe) they're generally identical to single ended cables, although balanced cables often have less of a "sonic signature" than single ended.


----------



## LouS

Mondo Caliente said:


> Balanced cables can carry a signal for hundreds of feet without signal degradation (I've used them exclusively in pro audio for decades), but in short runs (3 to 6 feet maybe) they're generally identical to single ended cables, although balanced cables often have less of a "sonic signature" than single ended.



I used them in studio applications as well, if you use Duelund wire for the ICs I don't think that you can hear a difference in most applications. There is always the possibility of an exception, but if you are going to use teansformers to address it, I think that would likely null those differences.


----------



## sam6550a

Boogie7910 said:


> I need something like the Freya to remote control my  volume but I need two balanced outputs instead of Freya's one and also maybe something with EQ tone controls if possible. Anyone know a good option?
> 
> Budget is 2k but preferably under


Freya has a low output impedance that should easily drive two balanced loads, depending upon the termination impedance.


----------



## Boogie7910 (Aug 7, 2018)

LouS said:


> You need to talk to Roy about his SP14. You want some upgrades, but his preamp is supposed to be a step up, and he may be able to hit your price point. If you go with the metal case, you really ought to be able to get everything but the tone controls. High end doesn't normally have tone controls.
> 
> http://www.tubes4hifi.com/don.htm
> 
> If you can wait, and want to pay a little more Don Sachs tweaks it out for around 2,200 I believe.



That looks pretty good. Can he make it fully balanced?

What's the difference between that site and Don Sachs site in regards to the SP14?


----------



## LouS

Boogie7910 said:


> That looks pretty good. Can he make it fully balanced?
> 
> What's the difference between that site and Don Sachs site in regards to the SP14?



It would be fully balanced compatible. The amplification would be single ended, but the input and output circuits would/could be balanced. Don't put too much emphasis on balanced circuitry, what is important is how well designed and executed the circuit is. A well designed SE circuit which is well implemented can seriously smoke most balanced circuits, and this preamp is one of those circuits.

Here's the thing, Roy is an unbelievably good tube circuit designer. Don is an unbelievably good circuit tweaker. Don takes a good design and tries everything in it. He finds the best sounding wire, the best sounding capacitors, the best sounding resistors for the filament circuit, the best sounding resistors for the audio, etc.

Roy knows most of Don's tricks, and I believe that he charges less, but don't quote me on that. I think lead time is shorter with Roy. I initially had intended to purchase a kit from Roy, but he moved, and as it turned out, Don had a preamp some knucklehead had ordered, so I got him to add what I wanted to it, and it'll be here tomorrow. Otherwise I would have purchased a kit rather than waiting for Don to build one, or have Roy build one for that matter. I would have used some different capacitors for the outputs, and I would have been a little less particular about using resistor X here, and resistor Y there, but I would imagine that I would have had a pretty awesome sounding preamp anyway. They are both true pros, but Don has more experience tweaking a circuit to squeeze the most out of it presumably. I say presumably based upon hearsay as I have not had the opportunity to do a toe to toe sound off between Roy and Don's best efforts, but that is my understanding.


----------



## Boogie7910

LouS said:


> It would be fully balanced compatible. The amplification would be single ended, but the input and output circuits would/could be balanced. Don't put too much emphasis on balanced circuitry, what is important is how well designed and executed the circuit is. A well designed SE circuit which is well implemented can seriously smoke most balanced circuits, and this preamp is one of those circuits.
> 
> Here's the thing, Roy is an unbelievably good tube circuit designer. Don is an unbelievably good circuit tweaker. Don takes a good design and tries everything in it. He finds the best sounding wire, the best sounding capacitors, the best sounding resistors for the filament circuit, the best sounding resistors for the audio, etc.
> 
> Roy knows most of Don's tricks, and I believe that he charges less, but don't quote me on that. I think lead time is shorter with Roy. I initially had intended to purchase a kit from Roy, but he moved, and as it turned out, Don had a preamp some knucklehead had ordered, so I got him to add what I wanted to it, and it'll be here tomorrow. Otherwise I would have purchased a kit rather than waiting for Don to build one, or have Roy build one for that matter. I would have used some different capacitors for the outputs, and I would have been a little less particular about using resistor X here, and resistor Y there, but I would imagine that I would have had a pretty awesome sounding preamp anyway. They are both true pros, but Don has more experience tweaking a circuit to squeeze the most out of it presumably. I say presumably based upon hearsay as I have not had the opportunity to do a toe to toe sound off between Roy and Don's best efforts, but that is my understanding.



Thanks man. I don't mind going over my budget if the difference is worth it and from doing some reading about what Don does it seems like it. I sent Don an email to inquire about a custom build. I don't mind the build time. I've waiting months before for custom cables lol. Can't wait to hear your impressions when you get it.


----------



## LouS

Boogie7910 said:


> Thanks man. I don't mind going over my budget if the difference is worth it and from doing some reading about what Don does it seems like it. I sent Don an email to inquire about a custom build. I don't mind the build time. I've waiting months before for custom cables lol. Can't wait to hear your impressions when you get it.



If you want to go hogg wild, and have efficent speakers, or want to go efficient, Don has tweaked an amp Roy designed, but it's only 60WPC I believe. It's KT88 based.


----------



## Boogie7910

Don's reply "Hi I would love to help you, but it is a single ended circuit.  I can do a wonderful XLR input with Cinemag line transformers, but I cannot do XLR outputs, sorry."

bummer


----------



## LouS

Boogie7910 said:


> Thanks man. I don't mind going over my budget if the difference is worth it and from doing some reading about what Don does it seems like it. I sent Don an email to inquire about a custom build. I don't mind the build time. I've waiting months before for custom cables lol. Can't wait to hear your impressions when you get it.



One more point, the A-Team o/p caps supposedly take 100 hours to fully break in, but I ought to have an idea pretty quickly.


----------



## LouS

Boogie7910 said:


> Don's reply "Hi I would love to help you, but it is a single ended circuit.  I can do a wonderful XLR input with Cinemag line transformers, but I cannot do XLR outputs, sorry."
> 
> bummer



I figured that if Cinemag made one, they would make the other. Sorry, but check out the master designer, Roy, he may have a circuit in his back pocket....


----------



## LouS (Aug 7, 2018)

Doesn't your amp have SE inputs? Balanced circuits were designed for long cable runs which can pick up noise to help minimize noise that otherwise could be inducted into the sound from the cables, hence the output. 1 Meter cables are pretty much a non issue.


----------



## Boogie7910

LouS said:


> Doesn't your amp have SE inputs? Balanced circuits were designed for long cable runs which can pick up noise to help minimize noise that otherwise could be inducted into the sound from the cables, hence the output. 1 Meter cables are pretty much a non issue.



Yes I have a Cavalli Liquid Gold which is fully balanced but also has a SE input. I am under the impression feeding it a balanced signal is the best option.


----------



## LouS

Boogie7910 said:


> Yes I have a Cavalli Liquid Gold which is fully balanced but also has a SE input. I am under the impression feeding it a balanced signal is the best option.



Well, it MAY be. Generally speaking unless you are running longer runs of cable, balanced matters not. That said, some designs have more attention paid to one of the other. The Yggdrasil has a far better sounding balanced output than the SE output. So it's possible that the same is true for the inputs on your amp, I'd dig a little to find out if that's real, or urban legend. I don't know of any preamp for under 5, and some claim 10K that betters the DS2, so I would be slow to give up on it. Heck, it's even possible that the balanced inputs are better, but the DS2 is so much better than the competition that you could still be better off with using the SE inputs. If you live near 45044 we could likely pretty easily find out!


----------



## LouS

Boogie7910 said:


> Yes I have a Cavalli Liquid Gold which is fully balanced but also has a SE input. I am under the impression feeding it a balanced signal is the best option.



TAS didn't note an issue with the SE input;

"Is there anything the Liquid Gold can’t do or are there any drawbacks we need to know about? I can think of two. First, note that the Liquid Gold is designed to power dynamic-type headphones, but not electrostatic ’phones. Those who have fallen in love with Stax’s superb SR-009 electrostatic headphones will need a dedicated electrostatic headphone amp (Cavalli’s Liquid Lightning MkII is ideal for such applications).

Second, the Liquid Gold absolutely will not and does not add any sort of sonic warmth or perceived “richness” to the music, unless, of course, those qualities are faithfully captured in your recordings. I mention this point because, frankly, a number of other fine headphone amplifiers do add a certain “tincture of warmth” to the musical proceedings, which is a euphonic coloration that I suspect some listeners will find appealing. If you want an amp that will generate its own aura of warmth or perceived richness, then the honest-to-a-fault Liquid Gold is probably not for you because it imparts very little sonic personality of its own. With recordings that sound vibrant, colorful, and alive the Gold will reflect precisely those qualities, but if fed thin, brittle-sounding, over-produced recordings, the Gold will unflinchingly reveal those characteristics, too—whether for good or ill. For my part, though, I find the transparency and honesty of the Cavalli refreshing and very desirable."


----------



## Boogie7910

LouS said:


> TAS didn't note an issue with the SE input;
> 
> "Is there anything the Liquid Gold can’t do or are there any drawbacks we need to know about? I can think of two. First, note that the Liquid Gold is designed to power dynamic-type headphones, but not electrostatic ’phones. Those who have fallen in love with Stax’s superb SR-009 electrostatic headphones will need a dedicated electrostatic headphone amp (Cavalli’s Liquid Lightning MkII is ideal for such applications).
> 
> Second, the Liquid Gold absolutely will not and does not add any sort of sonic warmth or perceived “richness” to the music, unless, of course, those qualities are faithfully captured in your recordings. I mention this point because, frankly, a number of other fine headphone amplifiers do add a certain “tincture of warmth” to the musical proceedings, which is a euphonic coloration that I suspect some listeners will find appealing. If you want an amp that will generate its own aura of warmth or perceived richness, then the honest-to-a-fault Liquid Gold is probably not for you because it imparts very little sonic personality of its own. With recordings that sound vibrant, colorful, and alive the Gold will reflect precisely those qualities, but if fed thin, brittle-sounding, over-produced recordings, the Gold will unflinchingly reveal those characteristics, too—whether for good or ill. For my part, though, I find the transparency and honesty of the Cavalli refreshing and very desirable."



Did he specifically mention that anywhere? I also have the Gungnir Multibit Dac. I wonder if it has the same SE limitations you mentioned for the Yggdrasil.


----------



## LouS

Boogie7910 said:


> Yes I have a Cavalli Liquid Gold which is fully balanced but also has a SE input. I am under the impression feeding it a balanced signal is the best option.



I don't see any of the professional reviewers saying anything negative about the SE input. That's obviously anecdotal, but that to me seems telling.


----------



## LouS

Boogie7910 said:


> Did he specifically mention that anywhere? I also have the Gungnir Multibit Dac. I wonder if it has the same SE limitations you mentioned for the Yggdrasil.



If it is an issue with the Gungnir, you can get Don to make you an XLR to RCA conversion cable for a nominal sum, or pay for the Cine Mag inputs, I personally made a conversion cable, I couldn't justify the cost of the transformers.


----------



## jerick70

Let me explane why I went balanced. And it was because it sounded better. I've had various issues with SE inputs on certain gear. Namely noise. I tried quite a few fixes that didn't work out and usually degraded the sound.  Super expensive cables, power conditioners, isolation transformers, ect.... I even had an electrician come because I thought it was a grounding issue, but he couldn't find anything wrong with my electrical wiring. The last thing I tried was going fully balanced. It has fixed my noise issues totally and made the music sound like it should.

This may not happen to most people but it does in my setup with most SE gear so I've gone balanced.


----------



## Boogie7910

jerick70 said:


> Let me explane why I went balanced. And it was because it sounded better. I've had various issues with SE inputs on certain gear. Namely noise. I tried quite a few fixes that didn't work out and usually degraded the sound.  Super expensive cables, power conditioners, isolation transformers, ect.... I even had an electrician come because I thought it was a grounding issue, but he couldn't find anything wrong with my electrical wiring. The last thing I tried was going fully balanced. It has fixed my noise issues totally and made the music sound like it should.
> 
> This may not happen to most people but it does in my setup with most SE gear so I've gone balanced.



I may have to just get the Freya and swap out connections when switching to different balanced amp. Do you know of any other balanced tube preamps I could look out of of curiosity with no price limit?


----------



## jerick70

Boogie7910 said:


> I may have to just get the Freya and swap out connections when switching to different balanced amp. Do you know of any other balanced tube preamps I could look out of of curiosity with no price limit?


Here are a few...  

1) Hattor Audio - you will need to request a custom configuration. I've heard these are incredible for the price. You are welcome to pm me if you have questions about what I was looking at.

http://www.hattor.com/index2.html#ultimate

2) BAT REXII

3) Audio Research Ref6


----------



## LouS

jerick70 said:


> Let me explane why I went balanced. And it was because it sounded better. I've had various issues with SE inputs on certain gear. Namely noise. I tried quite a few fixes that didn't work out and usually degraded the sound.  Super expensive cables, power conditioners, isolation transformers, ect.... I even had an electrician come because I thought it was a grounding issue, but he couldn't find anything wrong with my electrical wiring. The last thing I tried was going fully balanced. It has fixed my noise issues totally and made the music sound like it should.
> 
> This may not happen to most people but it does in my setup with most SE gear so I've gone balanced.



Sounds to me like you are having RF interference issues and ought to be using shielded interconnects. There is some guy touting that his Duelund ICs are terminated, or perhaps he said grounded, on "both" ends. You DON'T do that, the shield should only connect to one end, generally the source. Otherwise you can end up with ground loops, lots of problems there. You'll notice one end goes into the RCA plug, the other end just has heatshrink. RCAs like these ought to clear up your problems. If it's not the incoming AC, something else has to be transmitting and being induced into the cables.


----------



## jerick70

LouS said:


> Sounds to me like you are having RF interference issues and ought to be using shielded interconnects. There is some guy touting that his Duelund ICs are terminated, or perhaps he said grounded, on "both" ends. You DON'T do that, the shield should only connect to one end, generally the source. Otherwise you can end up with ground loops, lots of problems there. You'll notice one end goes into the RCA plug, the other end just has heatshrink. RCAs like these ought to clear up your problems. If it's not the incoming AC, something else has to be transmitting and being induced into the cables.


Yes I tried shielded interconnects. I tried everything I could think of.  It took a year and a half of chasing to finally decide to go balanced. I had tried balanced in a few components at the beginning of my journey but wanted to to figure out what the issue was. I removed all rf that was close. No luck.


----------



## LouS

jerick70 said:


> Yes I tried shielded interconnects. I tried everything I could think of.  It took a year and a half of chasing to finally decide to go balanced. I had tried balanced in a few components at the beginning of my journey but wanted to to figure out what the issue was. I removed all rf that was close. No luck.



Since I don't believe in ghosts, I have to believe in physics, as ICs, balanced or not, seem to be the issue, you have something in the area inducing noise into the cables. I obviously don't know if the shielded cable were made by someone who knew about ground loops or not, but well shielded cables should take care of it assuming that the chassis is properly grounded, and it sounds like you made sure that was okay.


----------



## jerick70 (Aug 8, 2018)

Boogie7910 said:


> I may have to just get the Freya and swap out connections when switching to different balanced amp. Do you know of any other balanced tube preamps I could look out of of curiosity with no price limit?


FYI, here is another preamp that I've been keeping my eye on. VAC is the end all be all in the tube preamp world, IMO. 

http://www.vac-amps.com/productPages/SignatureMk_IIa.html

One other thing, I've posted the TOTL preamps from all of these manufacturers. They have fabulous lower end preamps too.


----------



## Boogie7910 (Aug 9, 2018)

So I've engaged with emails with Roy who said a custom balanced SP14 could be made but he referred me to Don Sachs to build it who already told me he can't. After I told Roy what Don said, Roy replied with he wouldn't be interested in building it because it's too much trouble, too expensive, and they've both wasted many hours on it and determined there is no improvement to sound.


----------



## jerick70

Boogie7910 said:


> So I've engaged with emails with Roy who said a custom balanced SP14 could be made but he referred me to Don Sachs to build it who already told me he can't. After I told Roy what Don said, Roy replied with he wouldn't be interested in building it because it's too much trouble, too expensive, and they've both wasted many hours on it and determined there is no improvement to sound.


That sounds a bit contradictory to me.  I had a discussion with Don a few months ago about the same thing.  He said he wasn't able to do a fully balanced preamp too. So I think you'll have to go somewhere else for a fully balanced setup.


----------



## jerick70

@Boogie7910 here's another option for a fully balanced preamp. This will bring the price down to earth too. Rogue Audio released this just recently. I've owned a few of Rogue's pieces and they make excellent kit.

http://www.rogueaudio.com/Products_RP7.htm


----------



## jseymour

This has been mentioned previously by myself and others.  If you decide to purchase a preamp like Don Sach's and require XLR outs, use a RCA to XLR converter.  It is going to be about the same cost Don Sach's charges for adding the XLR inputs.

https://www.fullcompass.com/prod/16...-hd-dual-stereo-level-and-impedance-interface
http://www.radialeng.com/product/jdi-stereo/
https://www.fullcompass.com/prod/061023-radio-design-labs-txafc1m-tx-afc1m


----------



## Boogie7910

LouS said:


> I initially had intended to purchase a kit from Roy, but he moved, and as it turned out, Don had a preamp some knucklehead had ordered, so I got him to add what I wanted to it, and it'll be here tomorrow.



So I assume you got the premamp? Any initial thoughts or are you waiting to break it in?


----------



## Jamiee

Hi,
So I've just upgraded my Yggy A1 + SPL Volume 2 combo to a Yggy A2 + Freya ..... All good except I notice one odd thing about Freya.  
It doesn't fully mute.  if I put the volume down to zero, I can still slightly hear whats being played through it - same goes for muting it as well...
is this normal?


----------



## purehifi192

Jamiee said:


> Hi,
> So I've just upgraded my Yggy A1 + SPL Volume 2 combo to a Yggy A2 + Freya ..... All good except I notice one odd thing about Freya.
> It doesn't fully mute.  if I put the volume down to zero, I can still slightly hear whats being played through it - same goes for muting it as well...
> is this normal?


Running tubes in mono block mode into efficient speakers?  Yes.  I hear noise even with my relatively inefficient speakers.

Edited to add: I hear nothing when mute is engaged, only with volume is at 0.


----------



## US Blues

Jamiee said:


> Hi,
> So I've just upgraded my Yggy A1 + SPL Volume 2 combo to a Yggy A2 + Freya ..... All good except I notice one odd thing about Freya.
> It doesn't fully mute.  if I put the volume down to zero, I can still slightly hear whats being played through it - same goes for muting it as well...
> is this normal?



Yes, it's normal for Freya to pass a tiny signal with the volume knob all the way down. No worries!

PS- Ask Jason for the tech details.


----------



## Jamiee

OK glad to know it's normal... Thanks guys.

I definitely still hear what's playing even when muted. Mute is the same output level as having the volume at 0  ---  eg. turning the volume to 0 and pressing mute = no change.
I can reduce the output further by enabling passive or JFET buffers, but there's still a little bit of sound that gets through.  

I have Freya feeding a FOCAL professional subwoofer, which in-turn feeds a pair of FOCAL studio monitors (2.1)   .


----------



## FLTWS

Sub'd again, for the 6SN7 tube - talk.


----------



## Mondo Caliente

My Freya also has mute leakage issues but it doesn't bother me…maybe it should so I'll be sure and give it some thought. However, I can continue to talk about 6SN7GTBs as my Sylvania "Chrome Domes" continue to process electrons…or photons…or something…very well indeed. I think one of the main issues with a Freya is it can lead to TAS, or Tube Accumulation Syndrome which will fill up a tube storage drawer quickly with no end to it. If I just used up the various tubes I currently have I could last for maybe 60 years without buying any replacements. In spite of that, I still check online for cool NOS tubes…therapy…I need therapy. A note to tube power amp freaks, I decided to try the Gold Lion KT77s in my single ended Dennis Had Firebottle amp (another TAS vehicle, although it has only 4 tubes including the rectifier so not so bad) and they're astonishingly good in this amp. Although I have many other power tubes for that amp, none sound as good as the GL KT77s. By the way, the driver tube is a NOS Amperex USA 6SN7GTB, which seems nearly unobtainable, although I have one other Amperex as a backup.


----------



## cheeseeater

I took possession of my new Freya today.  This is some cool SCHIIT!  JFET Buffer alone would have been worth every penny! And on top of that the tubes are even better (of course I haven't tried the stock tubes. I have RCA 5692 lying around, etc.)


----------



## Jamiee

Just added a quad of Grade-A  Psvane CV181 T-II's.   
So far so good... surprisingly good straight out of the box, though I'm sure they'll need some hours on them to be at their best.


----------



## DrJam

Jamiee said:


> OK glad to know it's normal... Thanks guys.
> 
> I definitely still hear what's playing even when muted. Mute is the same output level as having the volume at 0  ---  eg. turning the volume to 0 and pressing mute = no change.
> I can reduce the output further by enabling passive or JFET buffers, but there's still a little bit of sound that gets through.
> ...



I normally mute my system by muting the Oppo, but I just tested by muting the Freya and I couldn't hear any leakage.  Nothing.  Not even with my ear to the speaker.


----------



## Jamiee

DrJam said:


> I normally mute my system by muting the Oppo, but I just tested by muting the Freya and I couldn't hear any leakage.  Nothing.  Not even with my ear to the speaker.



Curious, are you running balanced or SE with your Freya?


----------



## Mondo Caliente

If I said I get leakage in mute I stand corrected…I do get leakage when the volume is down all the way, but after reading DrJam's post I checked the Freya and there is zero sound when muted…with a streamer running into the Freya in tube mode to a Dennis Had Firebottle SEP amp, I put my ear up to the horns in my Klipsch Heresy IIIs and nada…zero anything with the Freya muted. Single ended (only choice) to the Had amp.


----------



## DrJam

Jamiee said:


> Curious, are you running balanced or SE with your Freya?



Balanced from the Oppo.


----------



## Jamiee

DrJam said:


> Balanced from the Oppo.



My setup is fully balanced::   Desktop PC / RME Soundcard -- AES to Yggy  ---  XLR to Freya  --  XLR to Focal Subwoofer  -- XLR to Focal Studio Monitors.

It could just be that the balanced outs from the Yggdrasil are (maybe) hotter than the Oppo, thus the noticeable sound bleed?
For sure when I had an SPL Volume 2 hooked up to a Yggy A1 their was zero sound bleed - either at min volume or when muted.

Anyway, not a big deal... Freya still functions just fine otherwise and sounds great doing it!   If I need 100% mute, I just need to do so from the PC instead.


----------



## Ghosthouse (Sep 4, 2018)

Soundsgoodtome said:


> An update on the electro Harmonix new stock eh6sn7 tubes running as a matched quad. Unless you have dark to warm phones it will be too bright for most neutral to bright phones to run all eh6sn7.
> 
> However, using the eh as buffer and running lush/warm tubes as drivers makes them to be very nice synergy.
> 
> I've got a set of match Sylvania vt231 coming, we'll see how these sound with the eh6sn7 or maybe even as buffer tubes with the pavane.



Soundsgoodtome - Glad to have found your report.  I was going to post a new query asking for a REALITY CHECK on what I think I'm hearing.  Hunted a bit through past posts in this Freya tube rolling thread before writing and came across your comments from April 2017.

I have some NOS RCAs that are a pleasure in the gain position (NP TungSols in buffer).  The RCAs are very musical with nice bass and sound stage.  In one configuration I run, however, they are a little too smooth and more high end extension is needed.

NOS GEs were recommended and they definitely do lively things up pretty good when used in gain (TungSols in buffer as before).   But a little too much in this particular configuration.  To tame some of the excess brightness, I reinstalled the RCAs but in the buffer position in place of the TungSols.  Wasn't sure how much influence on the overall sound the buffer tubes would have.

This pairing (RCAs in buffer; GEs in gain) does seem like it has provided the desired balance - smoothing out the sound from the GEs just a bit but not losing all the HF extension they bring.

I will of course, have to experiment with RCAs in gain and the GEs in buffer as you suggest ("lush/warm tubes as drivers...nice synergy") to see how this reversed positioning sounds.

Best regards,
GH


----------



## cheeseeater

I just received 4 socket savers and the diameter is too big for the Schiit hole (ha ha). Where are you guys getting yours?


----------



## Jamiee (Sep 4, 2018)

cheeseeater said:


> I just received 4 socket savers and the diameter is too big for the Schiit hole (ha ha). Where are you guys getting yours?



I bought these: 
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/1-EL34-GZ34...591293?hash=item41eb1f9afd:g:l8UAAOSw9elbfLWY
They are ceramic and fit Freya well.  --- Look back a page and you'll see a previous post from me with photo's.  You can easily see the savers...

I've also heard these will fit as well:
https://www.partsconnexion.com/SOCKET-74489.html


----------



## cheeseeater

Terrific. I thank you very much


----------



## FLTWS (Sep 5, 2018)

Can't seem to post pics this morning for some reason. Finally!

*I HAVE 2 OF THESE FROM TUBEMONGER*




*I’VE ORDERED 4 of THESE FROM王龙飞   auakg@suzier.com*



*I got the first 2 for use with a pair of Psvane 6SN7 – UK. The extenders don’t fit flush to the base of the tubes but tightly enough to pass the signal without issue. I have found it difficult to remove the Psvane’s  without the extender coming with it so it will just be an extender and not a saver.*

*I bought the 4 gold plated ones to see if they will seat better. *

*I only need / use them with the Psvane’s which go into the opening straight without a problem but to remove them, the  rocking motion I use rubs against  the opening in the top of LYR-3. I don’t need them with standard shaped glass and I’m not worried about the heat.*


----------



## hifimckinney

Can Freya be used without tubes? I like to stack Gungnir on top of it.


----------



## whatcomfalls

hifimckinney said:


> Can Freya be used without tubes? I like to stack Gungnir on top of it.


Yes, although I wouldn't recommend stacking on top of it without adequate space between it and the Gungnir.


----------



## KoshNaranek

hifimckinney said:


> Can Freya be used without tubes? I like to stack Gungnir on top of it.


I would flip that around


----------



## hifimckinney

KoshNaranek said:


> I would flip that around



Thanks. Right but I have a slightly complicated plan . I like to stack Freya on top of two Vidars and the Gungnir at the top by using Schiit's XLR interconnects that are roughly 9" in length. If I do it your way, reaching from Freya to Vidars would not be possible.


----------



## sam6550a

hifimckinney said:


> Can Freya be used without tubes? I like to stack Gungnir on top of it.


Ask Schiit about that. They told me not to do that.


----------



## KoshNaranek

hifimckinney said:


> Thanks. Right but I have a slightly complicated plan . I like to stack Freya on top of two Vidars and the Gungnir at the top by using Schiit's XLR interconnects that are roughly 9" in length. If I do it your way, reaching from Freya to Vidars would not be possible.


You don't stack ANYTHING on top of Vidars


----------



## Koobre

HI, I've just acquired a new Freya and have gotten new TungSol 6SN7 GTB matched tubes. Good sound but there is a very audible hum which is more obvious than the stock tubes. It is also louder when I placed my hand on the Freya. The hum goes away in JFET mode.
My source is Bluesound Node 2 into Yggdrasil- Freya- Teddy Pardo MB100 power amp monoblocks and into Harbeth SHL5+ speakers. Balanced interconnect into the Freya but SE into the Teddy Pardo.
Does anyone know how to resolve this? Is it just a matter of faulty tubes or a ground loop problem? I'm new to this tube rolling hobby and any suggestions will be greatly appreciated.


----------



## TheSnafu

^ I had similar experience with Freya and ended up returning it.

Whole amp was (in tube mode) super sensitive to, well, anything. Even touching cables caused loud noise through speakers like tapped faulty tube. In JFET-mode it still had audible noise floor.
Shame that, visually and as an amp it was really cool but these short comings with sensitivity and noise floor made me return it. Same tube sets used with another tube pre amp caused zero noise or problems...

I'm afraid that Freya production has some issues with quality control (or other problems related to design, i don't know about  that).
But if there ever will be improved Freya i'm definitely interested at least trying it out.

cheers


----------



## cheeseeater

I'd be interested to know what the actual percentage is that has this issue. If mine had noise issues I would have said something in this forum, for sure. But my Freya is dead silent and has ZERO microphonics. I looove  the reality it injects. My only issue is customer service.  It seems that if you ask a question they think is stupid they ignore you. I keep buying the Schiit though because I really like it. And Freya...I would have sex with you if I could.


----------



## cheeseeater

Maybe I can. I did just get a new set of socket savers


----------



## sam6550a

cheeseeater said:


> I'd be interested to know what the actual percentage is that has this issue. If mine had noise issues I would have said something in this forum, for sure. But my Freya is dead silent and has ZERO microphonics. I looove  the reality it injects. My only issue is customer service.  It seems that if you ask a question they think is stupid they ignore you. I keep buying the Schiit though because I really like it. And Freya...I would have sex with you if I could.


My Freya, bought mid 2017, is dead quiet in all modes. The original 6SN7 tubes were somewhat microphonic,but the Tung Sol tubes do not exhibit that problem. Freya is sensitive to ground loops, and cables/grounding schemes need to be well understood to diagnose the problems, i. e., do the signal cables have the shield terminated on both ends? What  other equipment is connected? What if I disconnect xxxx, does it change? Noise and hum in audio gear is almost always installation specific.


----------



## drwlf

@TheSnafu and others.

I'm located in Finland, and bought a 230v Freya (and a Vidar) from the Dutch importer, schiit-europe.com. It took quite a while for first Freya to come into stock in early summer, and I waited for the Vidar for a couple of months more. Other related gear is listed in my profile, but the speakers are 91dB Tannoy XT 8F's. (I was wondering about getting two Vidars.., but read on.)

Basically I bought the unit for my first foray into tubes, and to get into tube rolling, but I've been trying to tackle a noise problem. I've got a ~50hz (transformer/tube?) hum which doesn't change with the volume control/mute relay on.
The passive mode and JFET's are completely silent, although with your ear directly by the speakers' driver, you can hear the noise floor rise with JFET even so slightly. With tubes, the noise floor rises quite audibly, but the hiss isn't heard from the listening position - the hum is.

The thing is, all the tubes I've acquired (dozens of pairs from various vendors), including the stock tubes has this issue, and all of them with varying degrees of the before mentioned hum. Some (matched) pairs are almost undetectable (but they are producing the hum -  when you switch the modes you do notice, especially in a corner of the room where the frequency is naturally amplified), and some are quite vehemently producing this hum.
This hum is continuous 50hz hum, (I did a tone generator test). It isn't buzz, it isn't random tube artifacts appearing and disappearing, it isn't crackle, and it's not hiss. The hum doesn't change with touching Freya's chassis, holding it tighter to the surface it's resting on (tested various surfaces and places), nor does it change if I lift/tap the chassis or tubes (microphonic tubes convey clanks, thuds and thumps etc. to the speakers), and no weight above Freya's chassis help with the hum either. I've tested various electric sockets, and various ground combinations. I've even tested various socket savers. This has led to a conclusion that tube dampeners won't help with my issue.

I lent an isolation transformer for this weekend, only connecting the Freya into Vidar (with RCA to work in stereo mode) and obviously the speakers with cables, if I could tackle the problem but to no avail. I tested the isolation transformer in between the units and before them, with different ground combinations. No help. (Perhaps I could bring down the hum a slight notch when grounding the extension cord after the isolation transformer as the grid after the transformer isn't grounded.)

I can produce a ground loop with Freya (touching the chassis raises the same hum), as I can lift the ground easily. (Take note @Koobre , if that's your only problem, you're in luck I guess?)

The only thing still to test is which I can think of is a Jensen isolator (@cskippy mentioned Radial Engineerings DI-box) in between Freya and Vidar? Any other suggestions?

I haven't reached Sonority or Schiit yet; and it's a miracle I've found time to even do some minor testing in the past couple of days. On a sick leave due a flu, but otherwise the year has had to offer a death in the family, water damage in our normal flat (we've been living in another flat during the renovation since Midsummer, just got the OK this week to move back), 1- and 3-year olds running around in the house and SO starting to study again. I feel a bit overwhelmed. The 14 -day return periods have long since gone, but I guess warranty is still an option.

TL;DR is this even tube hum, does it exist, and if so, should I hear it with my speakers?
Could either Freyas or Vidars transformers be the source of problems, where either the isolator, or even a line attenuator might help?


----------



## sam6550a

drwlf said:


> @TheSnafu and others.
> 
> I'm located in Finland, and bought a 230v Freya (and a Vidar) from the Dutch importer, schiit-europe.com. It took quite a while for first Freya to come into stock in early summer, and I waited for the Vidar for a couple of months more. Other related gear is listed in my profile, but the speakers are 91dB Tannoy XT 8F's. (I was wondering about getting two Vidars.., but read on.)
> 
> ...


Try a simple experiment---ground the top plate of Freya to mains ground, then try it to signal ground. Outside of that experiment, it sounds like Freya has a problem with heater-cathode leakage that affects all of the tubes that you try.


----------



## TheSnafu

mine was 230V version too (Finland also).


----------



## drwlf

sam6550a said:


> Try a simple experiment---ground the top plate of Freya to mains ground, then try it to signal ground. Outside of that experiment, it sounds like Freya has a problem with heater-cathode leakage that affects all of the tubes that you try.



Tried both grounding options, no help. "Mains" hum still audible with the tubes, and different tubes give varied results. I guess a friend comes over with an oscilloscope, hopefully next weekend, so we can produce screenshots to Sonority/Schiit? Or should I try that isolator/attenuator?


----------



## Mondo Caliente

I'm also in the "Freya with zero issues" camp as since acquiring mine late last year it's been humless, zero tube hiss, and the original stock Russian tubes sounded fine, although I've been rolling tubes for fun since I bought the thing (have gained a pile of 6SN7GTBs, NOS Sylvania "chrome domes" and RCAs are my current faves…I have Amperex USAs and new version Tung Sols also, and my SE Dennnis Had amp uses one so there's that). My rig has a couple of bespoke noise fighting power supplies, a Humbuster III for the amps, a power conditioner, etc., but a noisy Freya would have bugged me big time and likely would have been returned, after my exhausting any remedies anyway. It's maybe the fact that a forum will likely report more issues than non issues, but it's interesting and it clearly sucks for people who wind up with noisy preamps. I've become a Schiit fan (no pun intended) with other things including an amazing Loki, and a Magni 3 headphone amp and they're also well done. The only flaw in the Freya are the brighter than I prefer LEDs that I somewhat cured by taking the thing apart to paint the LEDs. Not recommended by the way as it's a task to get the LEDs back in their places when re-assembling the thing. Otherwise this preamp sounds and performs flawlessly.


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## sam6550a

TheSnafu said:


> mine was 230V version too (Finland also).


Perhaps the 230V transformer is the common item in this search-------.


----------



## LouS

I haven't tried my Freya with my AN15 speakers, but with lower efficiency non full range drivers I had no hum. The Freya is on loan as Scott Winders talked me into a Don Sachs DS2 preamp, and there is no looking back. When it's returned I'll try it out, though mine is the US 120VAC version, and this somehow looks as if it may be unique to the European version. Wish I could be more help.


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## IndieGradoFan (Oct 13, 2018)

I started to get some whirring and occasional static in one of my Psvane TII last night -- had the Psvanes in gain stage and Sophia 6SN7 in follower stage. I thought about switching out for Lisst but decided to sleep on it. Today I went digging through some spare tubes and ended up putting Tung Sol BG square plate 6F8Gs in to gain stage and Tung Sol 6SU7 GTY in follower. Wow, guitar stuff sounds great now -- spent some time listening to Zeppelin, Pearl Jam, and Nirvana today. Physical Graffiti especially sounds fantastic with this combo.

Before I put the 6F8Gs in, I tried using TS BGRP 6C8Gs. They sounded great as well but I had a tube die after about 2 hours. Started as a hum in one channel, then some static, then put the power amp in to protection on that channel. I powered off Freya and then turned it back on and the tube didn't heat up. Power cycled again and it came back but wasn't amplifying and gave static on each click of the volume relays. Could be coincidence as these weren't new when I got them and I used them for a few years in a WA6. YMMV.

For reference, the system is currently Gungir MB > Freya > 2x Vidar > Ascend Acoustics RAAL towers.


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## jseymour

Very interesting to me as we have similar systems.  I am surprised that you aren't experiencing excessive gain.  It has been over a year, but my memory is when I tried 6C8Gs in the gain position they created a low level hum.  For me, they work great in the output buffer (follower) position, so there they stay.  Most of mine are Ken-Rad.  I will have to try them in the gain position again.


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## brad1138 (Oct 17, 2018)

I think I need service for my Freya...

1st thing, after going from 83 to 93 dB efficient speakers, the background noise when in tube mode is really loud. Even when volume turned off, there is a lot of noise coming from the speakers. So much so, I have gone to not using tube mode... Same issue with multiple different tubes. That noise has always been there, it just wasn't as noticeable with 83 dB efficient spks, and I figured it was normal. It doesn't vary with the volume level.

2nd I tried using XLR cables, and there was a clicking coming from the speakers as I adjusted the volume (not just the clicking that comes from the Freya), and the bass driver was moving out, like someone was pushing on it from behind, as I adjusted the volume. I think that means DC current somehow making it through. That scared me a lot, I didn't want to damage my speakers or amp. I went back to RCA and no problems.

I thought I would check here to see if any of these issues are "normal" before contacting Schiit for service.

Thanks


----------



## jerick70

brad1138 said:


> I think I need service for my Freya...
> 
> 1st thing, after going from 83 to 93 dB efficient speakers, the background noise when in tube mode is really loud. Even when volume turned off, there is a lot of noise coming from the speakers. So much so, I have gone to not using tube mode... Same issue with multiple different tubes. That noise has always been there, it just wasn't as noticeable with 83 dB efficient spks, and I figured it was normal. It doesn't vary with the volume level.
> 
> ...


Have you checked to make sure you don't have a ground loop?


----------



## brad1138 (Oct 17, 2018)

jerick70 said:


> Have you checked to make sure you don't have a ground loop?



Nothing like that (and yes), I have had it in 2 different systems, both with power/line conditioners. Problem has always been there, but I figured it was normal "tube noise" at 1st.


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## brad1138

It is more of a static noise, than a hum.


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## theveterans

brad1138 said:


> I think I need service for my Freya...
> 
> 1st thing, after going from 83 to 93 dB efficient speakers, the background noise when in tube mode is really loud. Even when volume turned off, there is a lot of noise coming from the speakers. So much so, I have gone to not using tube mode... Same issue with multiple different tubes. That noise has always been there, it just wasn't as noticeable with 83 dB efficient spks, and I figured it was normal. It doesn't vary with the volume level.
> 
> ...



That’s likely a sign of tubes going out and not the Freya itself. Put on some new quad matched or 2 matched pair tubes and see if those symptoms disappear


----------



## jerick70

brad1138 said:


> Nothing like that (and yes), I have had it in 2 different systems, both with power/line conditioners. Problem has always been there, but I figured it was normal "tube noise" at 1st.



Nice system!

I had pretty similar results with certain tubes and the Freya.  Mostly NOS tubes.  When I changed to newer release tubes like the Shuguang Treasure CV181-Z the problem was reduced significantly or totally gone depending on the sensitivity of the speakers / headphones.  With very sensitive headphones I could never eliminate the noise.  

I never had clicking with XLR cables.  That sounds like a problem with the wiring of the cables or possibly your source leaking current.  It could simply be that the tubes are so noisy that it is effecting your drivers like that.  Does it do the same thing with different sources connected with the same XLR cables?

I want to be honest, I sold my Freya because of the noise.  I purchased a Modwright LS100 and haven't looked back.


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## brad1138

theveterans said:


> That’s likely a sign of tubes going out and not the Freya itself. Put on some new quad matched or 2 matched pair tubes and see if those symptoms disappear


I have tried a few different pair. I will try the original set that I replaced with Tung Sol tubes very shortly after getting it.


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## brad1138 (Oct 17, 2018)

jerick70 said:


> Nice system!
> 
> I had pretty similar results with certain tubes and the Freya.  Mostly NOS tubes.  When I changed to newer release tubes like the Shuguang Treasure CV181-Z the problem was reduced significantly or totally gone depending on the sensitivity of the speakers / headphones.  With very sensitive headphones I could never eliminate the noise.
> 
> ...



Thanks,
I have a PS Audio preamp that had no problems in the same place with the XLR. I am running my Tung Sol NP right now, that probably only have about 500 hr's or less on them, and they are doing the same thing.

Also, the Modwright LS100 looks very nice, too rich for my blood though...


----------



## jerick70

brad1138 said:


> Thanks,
> I have a PS Audio preamp that had no problems in the same place with the XLR. I am running my Tung Sol NP right now, that probably only have about 500 hr's or less on them, and they are doing the same thing.
> 
> Also, the Modwright LS100 looks very nice, too rich for my blood though...


One other thing that you may want try is lifting the tubes out of the case with socket savers.  That helped my noise issue.

Another thought comes to mind.  I had really bad noise with NOS and new production tubes when I had a wireless network router or cell phone near my Freya.


----------



## jerick70

brad1138 said:


> Also, the Modwright LS100 looks very nice, too rich for my blood though...


I bought used and paid ~$1700.  It's many steps up from the Freya but it isn't balanced.  The headphone amp in the LS100 kills most of my stand alone headphone amps too.


----------



## US Blues

brad1138 said:


> I think I need service for my Freya...
> 
> 1st thing, after going from 83 to 93 dB efficient speakers, the background noise when in tube mode is really loud. Even when volume turned off, there is a lot of noise coming from the speakers. So much so, I have gone to not using tube mode... Same issue with multiple different tubes. That noise has always been there, it just wasn't as noticeable with 83 dB efficient spks, and I figured it was normal. It doesn't vary with the volume level.
> 
> ...



Try it in JFET mode and observe any changes in the noise. 

WARNING: If you listen for a while in JFET mode you may never use tubes again.


----------



## brad1138

US Blues said:


> Try it in JFET mode and observe any changes in the noise.
> 
> WARNING: If you listen for a while in JFET mode you may never use tubes again.



In passive or JFET mode, it is dead silent. 

I actually have found I like passive mode most with this system. The Tekton Lore-S speakers are extremely detailed and revealing, passive mode's clarity is even more appreciated with them.


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## theveterans

brad1138 said:


> In passive or JFET mode, it is dead silent.
> 
> I actually have found I like passive mode most with this system. The Tekton Lore-S speakers are extremely detailed and revealing, passive mode's clarity is even more appreciated with them.



Yep. It's confirmed now that it's the tubes. I'd probably do some faraday shielding around the tubes (assuming they're working perfectly) and hopefully that mitigates some crackling, humming or clicking on speakers when adjusting the relay.


----------



## KoshNaranek

theveterans said:


> Yep. It's confirmed now that it's the tubes. I'd probably do some faraday shielding around the tubes (assuming they're working perfectly) and hopefully that mitigates some crackling, humming or clicking on speakers when adjusting the relay.


It won't work. The grids are bad.


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## drwlf

drwlf said:


> Tried both grounding options, no help. "Mains" hum still audible with the tubes, and different tubes give varied results. I guess a friend comes over with an oscilloscope, hopefully next weekend, so we can produce screenshots to Sonority/Schiit? Or should I try that isolator/attenuator?


Related to this, I haven't forgotten it, got the move done back to the normal apartment last weekend, quick testing, quick measurements with the oscilloscope with screenshots a week before that, clearly showing the 50Hz hum in tube mode but not in the two others, _tried another new thing this week_ (more on that later, but the problem got fixed, but it's not really an sensible option with a 1700€ set), and doing further testing with another power amp instead of Vidar with some other ideas. I'll report back as soon as I can.
Schiit replied me with forwarding my questions to a "senior tech" along with a request to contact the distributor - Sonority Audio, haven't gotten around to that yet until I've exhausted all of my ideas. No reply from that senior tech from Schiit; but I'll keep them updated about my findings when I get around to that.


----------



## papoopeepoo

Hey folks, I'm a long time lurker, first time poster. I ordered Freya last Wednesday (10/17), and it hasn't shipped yet. Last night they put it on Backorder until 11/22. I'm crossing my fingers that mine was in stock before it went into Backorder, but judging by how infrequently they seem to update the website status, I may be out of luck. When I do get it, I'll post about how it sounds on my 2-channel speaker setup.


----------



## Mondo Caliente

I had to wait a little last year for my Freya, and it was worth the wait. Note that I am still surprised at the Freya noise issues that some have noted as mine is DEAD quiet with any of the tubes I've used, from the original "el mysteriouso" Russian stock things to new Tung Sols and my current pile of NOS Sylvania Chrome Domes and RCAs...and for my tastes the tube setting sounds much better than the FET or passive, and as noted previously my SE power amp prefers the higher gain. By the way, here's a hilarious recent interview with the Schiitheads:


----------



## papoopeepoo

Mondo Caliente said:


> I had to wait a little last year for my Freya, and it was worth the wait. Note that I am still surprised at the Freya noise issues that some have noted as mine is DEAD quiet with any of the tubes I've used, from the original "el mysteriouso" Russian stock things to new Tung Sols and my current pile of NOS Sylvania Chrome Domes and RCAs...and for my tastes the tube setting sounds much better than the FET or passive, and as noted previously my SE power amp prefers the higher gain.



The noise problems I've read about here are the main reason I waited so long to order. I thought Schiit might have a few bugs to work out in the beginning. The one post about the gain on the Tube stage being brought down interests me. My power amp (ARC D240 mk2) has a 1.6V input sensitivity, so with too much gain from the preamp, it would be especially easy to run it into clipping. I ordered the new tubes and LISSTs, so I'll have plenty of experimenting to do. This is my first piece of tube equipment to own. I've heard plenty of tube amps and preamps, but they've always been completely out of the question price-wise.


----------



## Mondo Caliente

Did they actually reduce the tube stage gain? The site still says 14db...still, I doubt it's going to clip any reasonably designed amp, but you'll know immediately! Note that complaints of tube sourced or whatever noise/distortion issues although reported here and there, don't account for what is likely unreported thousands of Freyas without these issues...or I just got lucky...in any case there's a good chance you're gonna like the thing...


----------



## DrJam

Mondo Caliente said:


> Did they actually reduce the tube stage gain? The site still says 14db...still, I doubt it's going to clip any reasonably designed amp, but you'll know immediately! Note that complaints of tube sourced or whatever noise/distortion issues although reported here and there, don't account for what is likely unreported thousands of Freyas without these issues...or I just got lucky...in any case there's a good chance you're gonna like the thing...



Perhaps I'm one of those "unreported thousands" so that's why I'm chiming in:  The few times I have had an issue with Freya has always been due to tubes:  My stock Russians were a bit noisy and I also got a couple off ebay that were either very noisy or dead (which I did exchange for replacements in each case), but I have now a collection that all sound great, including some Sylvania + GE, or is it Raytheon or RCA in there now?... anyway, it doesn't matter, I'm happy with all of them and can put my ear to the drivers (while muted, of course), and only occasionally do I hear a slight background noise from the tubes that never bothers me during normal listening.

And, I like the tube gain.  I only wish the JFET stage had some gain as well to compensate for some lower-amplitude sources (be it cable box or older CDs mastered before the volume wars.)


----------



## Jamiee

In most cases noise is probably from a noisy tube.   Freya itself is pretty quiet in my experience.
I have a pair of Focal studio monitors sitting roughly 3ft away from me and in Tube gain my Freya is nearly dead silent.  Only if I put my ear right beside one of the tweeters can I hear the slightest amount of tube noise.  During regular listening at normal listening distances --- not a chance!

Of the 6-7 quad sets of tubes I own - only one TUNG-SOL 6SN7 (new stock) tube was found to be a bit microphonic & noisy when placed in the front gain position.  It would very audibly pickup clicking from the volume control relays and occasionally hum --- The sound coming out of the left speaker.   Moving the offending tube to the rear gain position or one of the output positions solved the problem.   All other tubes I've owned have been near silent, so I've been lucky that way.

Right now I have 160+ hours on a quad of TJ Full Music 6SN7's (same as Sophia 6SN7 ???) and I'm really liking them!
They sound rather interesting out of the box to say the least, but after a good 48hrs, they really start to calm down / open up and become quite a fantastic tube.   Dare I say I might even like them more than the Shuguang Black Treasure CV-181z by just a little bit.   

BTW, I've gone back and forth between JFET buffer and tube gain modes...  JFET is good, very good, but nothing quite beats out the sound of a really top notch tube!


----------



## Mondo Caliente

Tubes in a class A arrangement as utilized in preamps and some amps (my little single ended amp is one) seem to deliver more detail…I could be imagining that, but hey…that works for me. I switch to the other modes from time to time as the Freya makes that so easy, and it's  my "tube honesty/deterioration" monitoring sentry (!) not available in many , or any, other preamp…it's good. I still have NOS RCAs in the first position and NOS Sylvania Chrome Domes doing the gain work, and the thing just sounds beautiful…wait…I think I'm gonna weep…*sniff*...


----------



## Noldir

So, I got my Freya in and I can confirm the tube gain is almost the same as the JFET gain, yes there's a small difference but nothing shocking. 1 vs 1.5 gain I'd say. 
I tried searching the forums but I can't find the part where it's explained why the Freya has a mute button that doesn't completely mute. Anybody know where to look?


----------



## Jamiee

Indeed JFET buffer and tube gain stage are pretty close with tube having a bit more output.

Re: Freya mute....  yeah, It doesn't fully mute for me either.  Nor does zero volume attenuation fully mute anything that's being played back.
Minor annoyance that I've learned to live with in my setup.   Can't say I've heard or read an explanation as to why this is though?


----------



## Noldir

Jamiee said:


> Indeed JFET buffer and tube gain stage are pretty close with tube having a bit more output.
> 
> Re: Freya mute....  yeah, It doesn't fully mute for me either.  Nor does zero volume attenuation fully mute anything that's being played back.
> Minor annoyance that I've learned to live with in my setup.   Can't say I've heard or read an explanation as to why this is though?


Glad to hear that, I've already asked them to confirm their site is out-of-date

For my own sanity: is your gain also quite low with the Freya? I totally dig it, but the passive, JFET and Tube all sit around 1 gain.


----------



## Jamiee

for me passive is by far the most quiet (in terms of gain -- cos their isn't any really ),  JFET is a subtle step up in gain and Tube is another step up (more noticeable than between passive and JFET).  They definitely don't all sit at the same level.


----------



## Noldir

Jamiee said:


> for me passive is by far the most quiet (in terms of gain -- cos their isn't any really ),  JFET is a subtle step up in gain and Tube is another step up (more noticeable than between passive and JFET).  They definitely don't all sit at the same level.


 I'm used to the knob setting at around the 25% volume max, but with Freya that sits around 50%. So a lot lower gain then normal. But going by your story that seems the same.

Also weird thing: I think I sometimes hear the Freya make a "click" when playing music. Would that be some protection circuit kicking in?


----------



## Jamiee

Yeah, I usually have my volume set to between 35% & 65% on Freya for most listening sessions -- depending on how much I want to let my hair down 
My previous solid state pre-amp (more of a straight volume control) didn't need quite as much, but it's not apples to apples with Freya so....

Can't say I've heard my Freya make a click while in operation while left alone.  Perhaps the volume dial wasn't quite set and clicked up/down to the next level?


----------



## Noldir

Jamiee said:


> Yeah, I usually have my volume set to between 35% & 65% on Freya for most listening sessions -- depending on how much I want to let my hair down
> My previous solid state pre-amp (more of a straight volume control) didn't need quite as much, but it's not apples to apples with Freya so....
> 
> Can't say I've heard my Freya make a click while in operation while left alone.  Perhaps the volume dial wasn't quite set and clicked up/down to the next level?



Was thinking the same, I'll have to see if I can reproduce it. I think it might have something to do with going from JFET to tube output.


----------



## sam6550a

Noldir said:


> Was thinking the same, I'll have to see if I can reproduce it. I think it might have something to do with going from JFET to tube output.


Toggling between the Freya operating modes is accomplished by relays, so that is what you are probably hearing. note: there are about 24 relays in Freya--used for volume control, input selection, mode select, muting, and communication with the orbiting mothership.


----------



## Noldir

sam6550a said:


> Toggling between the Freya operating modes is accomplished by relays, so that is what you are probably hearing. note: there are about 24 relays in Freya--used for volume control, input selection, mode select, muting, and communication with the orbiting mothership.


I understand that, but not 5 minutes into a song while I was on the other side of the room touching nothing


----------



## Mondo Caliente

On my seemingly "vintage" Freya the passive and FET modes seem to be exactly the same gain level although they claim the FET will drive longer cables, so in that case maybe a gain difference would be more obvious, and the tube mode is way hotter as most have described…so I assume something has changed in the thing, although a 14 db gain increase for the tube section is still listed on the site...Hmmm…the mute and level does leak some but doesn't bother me…and no clicking in this one except from the level change.


----------



## brad1138

Mondo Caliente said:


> I had to wait a little last year for my Freya, and it was worth the wait. Note that I am still surprised at the Freya noise issues that some have noted as mine is DEAD quiet with any of the tubes I've used, from the original "el mysteriouso" Russian stock things to new Tung Sols and my current pile of NOS Sylvania Chrome Domes and RCAs...and for my tastes the tube setting sounds much better than the FET or passive, and as noted previously my SE power amp prefers the higher gain. By the way, here's a hilarious recent interview with the Schiitheads:





What is your definition of "Dead Quiet". You mean you hear nothing, or at least, nothing more than passive or JFET mode? If so, mine definitely has an issue. I think tubes are supposed to add a little noise...


----------



## Mondo Caliente (Oct 27, 2018)

I get that some have experienced pesky tube noise here and there, but I recently checked again and here's what I found: Turning the Freya to max volume with my ear pressed on the horn tweeter of my 99db Klipcsh Heresy IIIs (doing this with MUSIC at max volume, even with my relatively low powered 12wpc single ended tube amp, would fry my earballs and addle my small brain), I switched to the Phono Preamp input, and turned my (usually in its passive bypassed mode unless needed from time to time) Schiit Loki EQ 8kHz knob up all the way...resulting in zero noise from the passive and FET settings, and a very low level "shoosh" from the tube mode. Barely perceptible. Max volume. The good news is my tube power amp is really dead quiet, but I will change my Freya tube noise opinion to "barely there" as that's what it is...and only when cranking the high frequency to a silly boosted level. I've heard more noise from really well grounded SS amps, so I can say that any tube noise from this Freya is utterly irrelevant. Yes, the tubes are there...and they sound fabulous playing music.


----------



## bmanone

When nothing is playing, I only hear the slightest hiss (not hum) with my ear a few inches away from the tweeters in both the right and left speakers. I have an early Freya with 14 db gain in tube mode versus passive and jfet.  That's with my quietest tube pair in the right hand front and rear positions.


----------



## brad1138 (Oct 27, 2018)

I just went in and listened again. In Passive or JFET, there is some noise, but nothing I would even mention. I tube mode, with the stock tubes (they are the quietest) you can hear a buzzing/humming from the seated position, it actually is loud enough to register above 50 dB on my dB meter right at the drivers....

This is with my DAC input (input 5) and the CD paused, and the volume all the way down. The noise does not vary with the volume setting, it is constant at this level.

I listen at fairly low levels in this room, probably 60's and low 70 dB's. That noise is very noticeable, and I just can't use tube mode....

The Speakers are 93 dB efficient. 

56 dB






~52dB





Sitting position, about 8 ft away


----------



## sam6550a

brad1138 said:


> What is your definition of "Dead Quiet". You mean you hear nothing, or at least, nothing more than passive or JFET mode? If so, mine definitely has an issue. I think tubes are supposed to add a little noise...


On my Freya [purchased 7/2017, the output noise is tube dependent, but all is silent in the 'mute' position. Some noise is evident in the jfet mode, but you have to work to hear it. Freya is, however, susceptible to magnetic fields----try moving the dear girl.


----------



## sam6550a

brad1138 said:


> I just went in and listened again. In Passive or JFET, there is some noise, but nothing I would even mention. I tube mode, with the stock tubes (they are the quietest) you can hear a buzzing/humming from the seated position, it actually is loud enough to register above 50 dB on my dB meter right at the drivers....
> 
> This is with my DAC input (input 5) and the CD paused, and the volume all the way down. The noise does not vary with the volume setting, it is constant at this level.
> 
> ...


If the noise [or hum], is low frequency, it may be due to heater-cathode leakage in the tubes, Freya voltage amps are direct coupled to the cathode followers, which means that the filaments are biased up frpm ground. A tube with heater-cathode shorts can be a problem-----in this application.Remember----not all tube applications are identical or even similar. You do not learn this stuff from a book.


----------



## brad1138 (Oct 27, 2018)

sam6550a said:


> If the noise [or hum], is low frequency, it may be due to heater-cathode leakage in the tubes, Freya voltage amps are direct coupled to the cathode followers, which means that the filaments are biased up frpm ground. A tube with heater-cathode shorts can be a problem-----in this application.Remember----not all tube applications are identical or even similar. You do not learn this stuff from a book.




I have the stock set, a set of Tung Sol  NP, Tung Sol NOS, and at least a 1/2 dozen pair of your more "highly regarded " NOS tubes. They all make noise, the stock tubes are the least noisy... (which are the ones from the above pic)

And I would say, there is a hum, a hiss, and static...


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## drwlf (Oct 28, 2018)

drwlf said:


> Related to this, I haven't forgotten it, got the move done back to the normal apartment last weekend, quick testing, quick measurements with the oscilloscope with screenshots a week before that, clearly showing the 50Hz hum in tube mode but not in the two others, _tried another new thing this week_ (more on that later, but the problem got fixed, but it's not really an sensible option with a 1700€ set), and doing further testing with another power amp instead of Vidar with some other ideas. I'll report back as soon as I can.
> Schiit replied me with forwarding my questions to a "senior tech" along with a request to contact the distributor - Sonority Audio, haven't gotten around to that yet until I've exhausted all of my ideas. No reply from that senior tech from Schiit; but I'll keep them updated about my findings when I get around to that.



As promised, my measurements, both units in the same grounded power strip, both 230V versions, Freya muted

Schiit Freya with supplied power cord
ViaBlue NF-A7 RCA interconnect
(GLI-2RCA RCA ground loop isolator when mentioned in the description)
Schiit Vidar with supplied power cord
Blue Jeans Cable Ten White speaker cable
Tannoy XT 8F (91dB sensitivity 2.83 volt @ 1 m), measurements from the link plates of the speaker posts.
As mentioned in my previous posts, I have several dozen matched pairs of tubes, with some tube pairs the hum is very loud, and with some it's so faint that you can't really hear it from the listening position unless you really concentrate, (albeit heard more clearly from various places in the room due to room resonances).

All 18 measurements with descriptions are found here: https://imgur.com/a/DxhZicV
Measurements from #1-15 done with a tube pair where the hum is very loud,
(measurements #10-15 from the splitted RCA signal, the level of the signal is so low that you can't really see anything, but they're in the album if you're interested)
and measurements #16-18 are among my quietest pairs, where you really have to concentrate to hear the hum.

As mentioned, I'm not an EE, so a friend took the measurements.

Here's a quick comparison:

#1: XLR -> Vidar in monoblock mode, measurements from right speaker post, *tube mode*:
friend thought it was merely an RCA ground loop problem, where the balanced differential signal would get rid of the hum, but no.







#4: RCA -> Vidar in stereo mode, measurements from right speaker post, *tube mode*
the hum is a lot louder vs. XLR/monoblock configuration







#5: RCA -> Vidar, measurements from right speaker post, *passive mode*
very, *very* low noise floor,  you can't even tell if the amp is on or off, with your ear by the tweeter







#6: RCA -> Vidar, measurements from right speaker post, *JFET*
from my previous post: _"... with your ear directly by the speakers' driver, you can hear the noise floor rise with JFET even so slightly"_







#7: RCA with a cheap RCA "ground loop isolator" -> Vidar, measurements from right speaker post, *tube mode*
my friend wasn't 100% certain if the 50Hz hum was seen by the oscilloscope or not, in real life the hum disappeared in my opinion, but was it due to the fact that the cheap isolator attenuates the signal a bit so the hum disappears in the inherent noise?
see the album images #8 and #9 for passive/JFET measurements, they're just as noisy?
in RL the noise floor did rise a bit with the isolator, almost inaudibly, but tbh the measurements look a lot worse? I seriously thought the problem was solved with the isolator - it was that quiet.
don't use a cheap RCA ground loop isolator, as it *really* messes up the frequency response, my unit got rid of the bass 








#16: bonus measurements with a "quiet" pair, RCA -> Vidar, measurements from right speaker post, *tube mode*
a pair among the quietest tubes but the 50Hz hum is still faintly audible as mentioned above








I'll send the measurements to Schiit and ask, is this working as intended (designed this way?), or could my Freya (or Vidar?) be faulty, and I'll contact Sonority about the problem after their response.

Before these measurements in my previous post I thought I had solved the problem, as the hum did, and does disappear with the (cheap, low-quality, frequency response-messing) RCA isolator (IRL, IMO).
But now after the measurements, I'm not 100% certain if it the ground loop isolator does the trick or not; _and I can't say if a better quality, Radial Engineering/Jensen transformed DI/isolator box (which doesn't mess up the frequency response) can help or not with my problem (and if so, will it help due to isolating or attenuating?)._
Also, they're quite expensive - dropping 200-400€ for a box between the Freya and Vidar shouldn't be the way to go, eh?
My friend thought that perhaps an RCA -10dB attenuator would get rid of the hum as well, in my case.

Any comments would be appreciated.



_Edit/addendum 28.10.2018, 20:40EET:
I forgot to mention in the post, that we confirmed the hum with another amp instead of Vidar, an old AVR Yamaha acting as the "power" amp.

Additionally, in my post #14511303 I mentioned how I tried different grounding schemes before, along with an isolation transformer before/between the units, lifting ground manually, grounding the chassis of both or either units (as suggested a post after that) etc., to no avail.
This time no isolation transformer was used, but there were no other electric appliances plugged in the fuse in my living room, other than Freya and Vidar (and Yggy for a while), for the measurements - as mentioned, both grounded in the same power strip._


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## sam6550a

brad1138 said:


> I have the stock set, a set of Tung Sol  NP, Tung Sol NOS, and at least a 1/2 dozen pair of your more "highly regarded " NOS tubes. They all make noise, the stock tubes are the least noisy... (which are the ones from the above pic)
> 
> And I would say, there is a hum, a hiss, and static...


Sounds like something besides tubes. Have you contacted Schiit with your problem and measurements?


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## belgiangenius (Oct 28, 2018)

My Freya has always been noisy like that in tube mode.  I always thought they had a bit of a problem with the design....

I literally have to choose the quietest tubes I have (and I have lots) not to be able to hear them from my listening position.


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## bmanone

drwlf,
Wow, that looks like a significant problem in tube mode.  Did you test the output of the Freya by itself?  Does the problem occur with a different amplifier?  My Freya - Yamaha B-2x amplifier don't have any 60hz hum (here in the U.S.) in any of the output modes that I can hear (I haven't checked it with an oscilloscope).


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## Mondo Caliente

Man…I guess I AM lucky!


----------



## drwlf

bmanone said:


> drwlf,
> Wow, that looks like a significant problem in tube mode.  Did you test the output of the Freya by itself?  Does the problem occur with a different amplifier?  My Freya - Yamaha B-2x amplifier don't have any 60hz hum (here in the U.S.) in any of the output modes that I can hear (I haven't checked it with an oscilloscope).


Hi, and thanks for the reply!

Indeed, in the imgur album, the measurements between #10-15 are from Freya "itself":
10-12 Freya with different modes -> RCA isolator -> RCA splitter, where the other end is going to Vidar (so we could audibly verify the hum), and the measurements are from the other RCA split's 3.5mm tip into the oscilloscope.
13-15 the same path with different modes, but without the RCA isolator.
As mentioned above, the signal level was too low for the oscilloscope (Freya was muted), and my friend told me that he would have to build an "active amplifier" to boost the signal, so we could verify the hum. As I mentioned, I'm not an EE, I don't know the model of the oscilloscope (I can ask if somebody thinks it's relevant), or about the "normal" ranges of measurements of oscilloscopes (as in if we had a "better" oscilloscope, could we have measured the low level signal in detail?)
Anyways - to confirm these particular measurements, we plugged in the input from Yggy, and ran an online tone generator from a laptop; the measurements showed pretty much the correct frequency, amplitude changed with volume etc.

I forgot to mention in the post, that we confirmed the hum with another amp instead of Vidar, an old AVR Yamaha acting as the "power" amp. I'll make an addendum to the post about that.

Additionally, in my post #14511303 I mentioned how I tried different grounding schemes, along with an isolation transformer before/between the units, lifting ground manually, grounding the chassis (as suggested a post after that) etc., to no avail.
This time no isolation transformer was used, but there were no other electric appliances plugged in the fuse in my living room, other than Freya and Vidar (and Yggy for a while).


----------



## brad1138

sam6550a said:


> Sounds like something besides tubes. Have you contacted Schiit with your problem and measurements?



I am still trying to decide if there is actually "something wrong" or not. Don't want to pay to ship it back, and have then say it is normal.....


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## sam6550a

brad1138 said:


> I am still trying to decide if there is actually "something wrong" or not. Don't want to pay to ship it back, and have then say it is normal.....


Suggest you prod their "senior tech' to provide an answer.


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## purehifi192

Has Jason commented on this issue at all?  I don't recall seeing anything, but easy to overlook.  I've sent my Freya in as soon as I got it - early adopter - multiple times actually.  Something just didn't seem right with it.  Schiit kept on telling me it was fine.  I ended up keeping it .  My tubes are 14db (presumably) louder than passive/JFET.  I have 85db speakers and hear a very low hum when my ear is pressed to the speaker when in tube mode.  This is normal, and I don't have a problem with this given my speakers.  My concern is if I change my speakers to more efficient ones how bearable would the hum be.  If Schitt resolved this issue in a design or firmware update, I'd like to know.


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## drwlf (Oct 29, 2018)

purehifi192 said:


> Has Jason commented on this issue at all?  I don't recall seeing anything, but easy to overlook.  I've sent my Freya in as soon as I got it - early adopter - multiple times actually.  Something just didn't seem right with it.  Schiit kept on telling me it was fine.  I ended up keeping it .  My tubes are 14db (presumably) louder than passive/JFET.  I have 85db speakers and hear a very low hum when my ear is pressed to the speaker when in tube mode.  This is normal, and I don't have a problem with this given my speakers.  My concern is if I change my speakers to more efficient ones how bearable would the hum be.  If Schitt resolved this issue in a design or firmware update, I'd like to know.



Did you have the 230V or 115V version?

In my case, as the 50Hz hum is so low in the frequency, it's harder to locate in space/distinguish with your ear by the driver - easier if you're away from the speaker, or in the natural room resonance/room mode location, (and with the "noisier" pairs, it's just so evident in any location that you can't miss it).
*edit: My point was that obviously with the higher gain in the tube mode, there's a higher noise floor, hiss etc., which isn't heard from the listening position, as in, it's not a problem, the hum is. 

Anyways, I sent an email to Schiit:
_Would you be able to look at the measurements and give me an idea if this is normal/working as intended, and my problem with the hum is due to my speaker sensitivity (or some other reason I can't think of), or do the measurements indicate that there's truly something wrong with either Freya and/or Vidar, and I should indeed contact Sonority for a warranty replacement?_


----------



## jseymour

purehifi192 said:


> Has Jason commented on this issue at all?  I don't recall seeing anything, but easy to overlook.  I've sent my Freya in as soon as I got it - early adopter - multiple times actually.  Something just didn't seem right with it.  Schiit kept on telling me it was fine.  I ended up keeping it .  My tubes are 14db (presumably) louder than passive/JFET.  I have 85db speakers and hear a very low hum when my ear is pressed to the speaker when in tube mode.  This is normal, and I don't have a problem with this given my speakers.  My concern is if I change my speakers to more efficient ones how bearable would the hum be.  If Schitt resolved this issue in a design or firmware update, I'd like to know.



I have had my Freya since January 2017 and strongly prefer tube mode.  I had Spatial M3 Turbo S (94dB @ 4 ohm) and in 2017 upgraded to M3TM (93dB @ 12 ohm).  There hasn't been a noise issue with either speaker.  I strain to hear a hum with my ear an inch away from the speakers.  A foot away is silence.  Any noise issues have been due to tubes and to a lesser extent the Freya's light weight chassis.  Good tubes and Herbie's Tube Dampeners (for 6C8G/6F8G) remedied tube noise. Chassis vibrations were tamed by Vibrapod footers and a several pound weight on top.

Other than the very low hum, which you don't have a problem with, what doesn't seem right with your Freya?


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## purehifi192

I ordered the Freya in July 2017 when Vidar was announced (120 V model).  Just a few too many minor issues that added up for my liking: left right channel imbalance, missing LED, ....  Schiit never found any smoking gun type issue and this was over multiple RMA related to the Freya, Yggdrasil (prior to A2, but after Gen 5), and Vidars.  I ended up keeping the whole system, but never trusted the Freya.  Now there's discussion around tube gain  being closer to par to JFET.  That's cool.  Things get updated, and I'm not worried about that.  Just seems like there's enough conversation around this issue that I'm hoping for some kind of update from Schiit.


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## brad1138

purehifi192 said:


> Has Jason commented on this issue at all?



My guess is he wouldn't want to comment on this in an open forum...


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## drwlf

brad1138 said:


> My guess is he wouldn't want to comment on this in an open forum...


I've read this thread while it progressed, and once again in full a couple of months back, I think there's a guy, or two? who might've thought there's not that much difference between the tube and rest of the modes?
How many are actually reporting this, as in, is this even a thing


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## Mondo Caliente

Since the Freya has been a gigantic success for Schiit, I think you would have to know how many of these preamps had issues relative to the totals sold...certainly you could get the impression that a lot of 'em had issues from reading this forum, but you have to wonder about the totals (1%?...10%? What's normal?). I might not have bought one if this thread had existed and I'd read it before ordering the thing, but mine sounds great...so far...nearly an entire year...If it died today I'd think I got my 700 bucks worth (maybe).


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## Noldir

drwlf said:


> I've read this thread while it progressed, and once again in full a couple of months back, I think there's a guy, or two? who might've thought there's not that much difference between the tube and rest of the modes?
> How many are actually reporting this, as in, is this even a thing


Well, at least two. I contacted Schiit about it and they said it was normal. I asked if they will update the site and they'd pass it on to the higher ups.


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## TheSnafu

I had "bad" Freya and this "tubestagehum" is something you notice right away. It isn't small issue and it isn't tube related. Worst thing is there is nothing you can do about it. 

Stacking weight on it or new tubes might help some, but those don't fix that original humming / hyper sensitivity problem.  Also i'm pretty, pretty sure Schiit knows what the problem is but they have decided not to fix it for good.

Freya is one sexy mofo preamp and i'd like to get one that works perfectly, but as it is, nope,


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## dieslemat

Im assuming that the Freya owners who are having hum issues all have good clean power sources(?)


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## drwlf

Noldir said:


> Well, at least two. I contacted Schiit about it and they said it was normal. I asked if they will update the site and they'd pass it on to the higher ups.


OK, thanks for confirming this! I'll certainly keep this in mind - as I speculated (with the friend) in my measurement post, _My friend thought that perhaps an RCA -10dB attenuator would get rid of the hum as well, in my case. _I might have not noticed the hum without the gain. And I do have a quite the difference between passive/JFET vs. tubes.


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## Noldir

I made a video of my Freya, if people could chime in how their Freya gain sounds / differs? https://photos.app.goo.gl/x1iurjrYpbZ21jLWA


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## Synergist969

I purchased my Freya within about a year(?) of it first becoming available ...so, it was probably their first iteration...and yes, the tube/balanced mode did/does exhibit significantly greater gain than the passive and JFET modes...(which are for all intents and purposes equal in gain...perhaps the JFET mode is very slightly greater in gain(?)...)...

  I began with the stock Russian tubes, upgraded to a "quad" of the NP Tung Sol's, and eventually purchased and use the Octal LISST's when they came out...(I just desired a relatively foolproof and maintenance/worry free system that still possessed balanced mode qualities...)
I found that I preferred the "3D"/spatial rendering qualities of the the tube mode, however, with tubes, my system always sounded very slightly edgy...regardless of the tubes...the LISST's ameliorated that effect nicely, (mildly initially, and then more so as they "burned-in"...), though with the LISSt's I believe I did notice some loss in that amazing sound-stage breadth and depth presentation...Regarding noise, I never experienced any genuinely significant noise issues...though the tube mode WITH actual tubes was mildly more touchy/sensitive to any environmental/up-stream component...(vibration/electronic interference...)

Peace/Namaste,
T.A.K.


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## Mondo Caliente (Oct 30, 2018)

Coming out of PS Audio Power Port wall plugs, my ancient Adcom ACE power conditioner runs everything in my rig, so that's fairly basic "conditioning" compared to more modern devices…it works perfectly and makes me wonder how long that thing is gonna last. The Freya is essentially "ground-lifted" with a 2 prong power cord, the phono preamp and DAC use bespoke filtered and regulated power supplies instead of wall warts so that's a good thing, and both of the power amps, the main SE class A tube amp and a SS mosfet amp (used only occasionally for deck speakers) are both plugged into a PS Audio Humbuster III. The Freya doesn't show any sign of environmentally related hum, all of the tubes I've used (original Russian 6N8S, new Tung Sol 6SN7GTs, NOS RCAs and 2 NOS pairs of Sylvania Chrome Domes) in it were are quiet and non microphonic, and it performs flawlessly with the gain boost of the tubes working very well into the amps with very low level nearly inaudible "shushing" tube noise barely there and only when at max volume as previously described. The tube stage displays the increased detail tubes are famous for, and the whole thing is just clear as a bell in all modes.


----------



## KoshNaranek

dieslemat said:


> Im assuming that the Freya owners who are having hum issues all have good clean power sources(?)


I would add that Freya needs to be on its own shelf. It is sensitive to induced magnetic fields from other equipment.


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## Noldir

Mondo Caliente said:


> Coming out of PS Audio Power Port wall plugs, my ancient Adcom ACE power conditioner runs everything in my rig, so that's fairly basic "conditioning" compared to more modern devices…it works perfectly and makes me wonder how long that thing is gonna last. The Freya is essentially "ground-lifted" with a 2 prong power cord, the phono preamp and DAC use bespoke filtered and regulated power supplies instead of wall warts so that's a good thing, and both of the power amps, the main SE class A tube amp and a SS mosfet amp (used only occasionally for deck speakers) are both plugged into a PS Audio Humbuster III. The Freya doesn't show any sign of environmentally related hum, all of the tubes I've used (original Russian 6N8S, new Tung Sol 6SN7GTs, NOS RCAs and 2 NOS pairs of Sylvania Chrome Domes) in it were are quiet and non microphonic, and it performs flawlessly with the gain boost of the tubes working very well into the amps with very low level nearly inaudible "shushing" tube noise barely there and only when at max volume as previously described. The tube stage displays the increased detail tubes are famous for, and the whole thing is just clear as a bell in all modes.


How far away is the hiss for you in both the and jfet mode? The tube hiss is audible 6 feet from the Freya and in jfet mode about 6 inches. Trying to figure out if mine has excessive noise


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## sam6550a

My Freya was purchased in mid-2017, and I do have some hum related observations. My Freya experienced a low level of 60hz hum [meaning it is not from the power supply, or it should be 120hz], in the tube mode.By judicious troubleshooting, I found that:
1. The green/yellow mains ground is not connected in Freya [to break ground loops],
2. The signal ground is not connected to the chassis ground [at least at DC].
3. Touching the case while in tube mode made the hum greater.
4. The hum magnitude was affected by the volume control.
My fix was to add a lug and wire under a rear Freya cover screw, and terminate it at the shell [ground] of an RCA plug.
This plug is placed into one of the unused Freya RCA outputs. The only tube hum I hear now [other than turning up the gain and hearing the hum difference between tube rolling candidates] is from when I connect Gungnir [balanced] to Freya---then the very low level hum comes from Gungnir.

Why are Freya signal and chassis grounds isolated? I have no idea, but, in my situation, connecting them together solved my problem. Grounding problems are highly installation dependent-------your results may vary.You are playing an an arena where all of the EE computational skills are lacking--only experience counts.


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## Noldir (Oct 31, 2018)

Just to put this out there: there was a running change from 14db to 8db made by Schiit and confirmed by them. So, new models have indeed lower gain. Just leaves the question (for me) how much is 8db of gain 

Edit: a gain of 1.741101 (8db) instead of 2.639016 (14db)
Source: http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-loudness.htm


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## DrJam

Noldir said:


> Just to put this out there: there was a running change from 14db to 8db made by Schiit and confirmed by them. So, new models have indeed lower gain. Just leaves the question (for me) how much is 8db of gain
> 
> Edit: a gain of 1.741101 (8db) instead of 2.639016 (14db)
> Source: http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-loudness.htm



Actually http://www.schiit.com/products/freya gives you the answer:
Gain: 2.5 (8dB)

This is voltage Gain, so 20*log10(2.5) = 8 dB.   Or, in reverse: Gain = 10^(8/20) = 2.5 (approximately, of course)
For the older spec Freya like I have:  Gain=5 => 14 dB.


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## Noldir

DrJam said:


> Actually http://www.schiit.com/products/freya gives you the answer:
> Gain: 2.5 (8dB)
> 
> This is voltage Gain, so 20*log10(2.5) = 8 dB.   Or, in reverse: Gain = 10^(8/20) = 2.5 (approximately, of course)
> For the older spec Freya like I have:  Gain=5 => 14 dB.


Should've mentioned my numbers are the perceived loudness. 

Nice to see Schiit changed the webpage after my mail. Beginning of this week it was still 14db on the site


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## dieslemat

Interesting.... 

So its generally ok to get a Freya now that the “quirks” have been addressed? 

Question on the recent buyers, are your Freya good in tube mode? Given that the gain was reduced already?


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## Noldir

Well, with stock tubes the hiss is noticeable from quite far (up to 6 feet) from the speakers. This is in an otherwise quiet room of course. Tube mode sounds good and is actually the first tube operated device that I actually like the sound of.


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## Mondo Caliente (Nov 1, 2018)

Again, there is zero hum or hiss from the passive or FET mode and the only noise from the tube mode is barely there and only noticeable when cranked to maximum with my ear pressed onto the tweeter horn. Way below the threshold of being audible when music is playing, and satisfyingly quiet and beautiful sounding when in use. It was interesting that I actually heard anything because I hadn't pushed the high frequencies up with my Loki EQ before this recent test…with the EQ maxed I should have heard some noise in every mode but it's really as described. A great preamp in my book, whatever that means. I might have the thing somewhat isolated as it sits on its own shelf in the middle of my rack, and there are all sorts of signal and power cables running here and there behind it, but I suppose they're of relatively high quality maybe, or something...


----------



## Jamiee

Again, no real hum or hiss related issues with my July Freya other than what's been specifically tube related.

On the matter of gain.....  two things....  *1.*  Yes I can confirm the tub gain is probably 8db over JFET Buffer  ---  not quite a doubling of the perceived volume.   I was expecting 14db and was surprised when I didn't quite hear that much of a jump up... but this has now been explained.
*2.* My previous comments regarding a slightly lower than expected tube gain have turned out to be unfounded.  As it turns out, I just discovered that the main volume control for my sound card was set -10db from 0.  I think this happened when I installed the latest Windows drivers which coincidentally was very shortly after I got Freya setup.
.... Back at 0db and Freya is loud and proud!


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## sam6550a

Jamiee said:


> Again, no real hum or hiss related issues with my July Freya other than what's been specifically tube related.
> 
> On the matter of gain.....  two things....  *1.*  Yes I can confirm the tub gain is probably 8db over JFET Buffer  ---  not quite a doubling of the perceived volume.   I was expecting 14db and was surprised when I didn't quite hear that much of a jump up... but this has now been explained.
> *2.* My previous comments regarding a slightly lower than expected tube gain have turned out to be unfounded.  As it turns out, I just discovered that the main volume control for my sound card was set -10db from 0.  I think this happened when I installed the latest Windows drivers which coincidentally was very shortly after I got Freya setup.
> .... Back at 0db and Freya is loud and proud!


Microsoft knows better than you do------just ask them.


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## Noldir

Does anyone know how many inserts the sockets on the Freya should last for?


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## jseymour

Noldir said:


> Does anyone know how many inserts the sockets on the Freya should last for?



Use socket savers and then it will not matter.  As I have stated before, they also have the benefits of making the removal and insertion of tubes easier and moving the heat farther away from the PCB.


----------



## Noldir

jseymour said:


> Use socket savers and then it will not matter.  As I have stated before, they also have the benefits of making the removal and insertion of tubes easier and moving the heat farther away from the PCB.


Fair enough. But can I assume then that the original sockets will last "a few thousand inserts"? Just as a socket saver?


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## jseymour

Noldir said:


> Fair enough. But can I assume then that the original sockets will last "a few thousand inserts"? Just as a socket saver?



Socket savers are fairly snug to the Freya tube holes on the chassis top, so they also limit lateral movement of the PCB mounted sockets.  Assuming a few thousand insertions is 2,500, then it becomes 5,000 because you have to include the removal.  I would not want to stress PCB mounted sockets that much.  When I decided to buy a Freya, I also knew that I had to use socket savers.


----------



## Noldir

jseymour said:


> Socket savers are fairly snug to the Freya tube holes on the chassis top, so they also limit lateral movement of the PCB mounted sockets.  Assuming a few thousand insertions is 2,500, then it becomes 5,000 because you have to include the removal.  I would not want to stress PCB mounted sockets that much.  When I decided to buy a Freya, I also knew that I had to use socket savers.


I'm not planning on inserting and removing them that much, I had to test some stuff so I guess they've been in and out of their socket about 2 dozen times if that much at all. I noticed some sockets become slightly more loose but I was wondering if this is the socket getting worn in, the pins on the tube or just my imagination at work.


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## TGeorgeL

Noldir said:


> I'm not planning on inserting and removing them that much, I had to test some stuff so I guess they've been in and out of their socket about 2 dozen times if that much at all. I noticed some sockets become slightly more loose but I was wondering if this is the socket getting worn in, the pins on the tube or just my imagination at work.


FWIW, I put some socket savers (ones recommended by some users here) into my Freya.  After a time, one of these savers broke—I don’t know how or why, but it was impossible to get an inserted tube to seat.  I tried to remove the sockets savers from all sockets but could only get one of them out.  Not wanting to try to remove the cover, I returned the Freya to Schiit and for a very reasonable fee, they removed them, checked the preamp out and returned it to me.  That was the last tweak I will ever try!!


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## Mondo Caliente

That's an interesting question as I've probably done a dozen or so (maybe less) inserts and removals of the Freya tubes, and just assume I'm doing it right by really gently moving the tubes from side to side...as I've been doing for the last 50 years in other amps (mostly guitar amps), but never very frequently per amp...if a socket failed that would suck but be an easy fix I suppose...however, it's such a a pain to get the LEDs back in their proper holes after removing the top I'd likely send it to Schiit for that.


----------



## TGeorgeL

Mondo Caliente said:


> That's an interesting question as I've probably done a dozen or so (maybe less) inserts and removals of the Freya tubes, and just assume I'm doing it right by really gently moving the tubes from side to side...as I've been doing for the last 50 years in other amps (mostly guitar amps), but never very frequently per amp...if a socket failed that would suck but be an easy fix I suppose...however, it's such a a pain to get the LEDs back in their proper holes after removing the top I'd likely send it to Schiit for that.


Yes, removing tubes from the Freya was no problem.  I got the socket savers to reduce heat.  The savers I purchased had, literally, so little “wiggle room” because of the holes in the Freya’s top that I could only manage to remove one of them by gently wiggling it and pulling it out.  The other three were just stuck and I couldn’t pull them straight up and out.  A little arthritis in my fingers didn’t help matters.


----------



## brad1138

I had a couple tubes (Tung Sol NP) tested that I know were both 100%/new when purchased. Now, after less than 500 hrs, probably a lot less. One is at 87% and the other about 74%. They were in left and right buffer....  Could the Freya be wearing 1 side more than the other that drastically?


----------



## sam6550a

brad1138 said:


> I had a couple tubes (Tung Sol NP) tested that I know were both 100%/new when purchased. Now, after less than 500 hrs, probably a lot less. One is at 87% and the other about 74%. They were in left and right buffer....  Could the Freya be wearing 1 side more than the other that drastically?


Tubes never age identically----wide variations in transconductance through their life is normal. When you say "100%", "87%", etc., are you talking about emission or transconductance? Emission is not an accurate measure of a tube's performance.


----------



## CouryT

I’ve had my Freya for about 8 months and it absolutely chews through tubes. I’ve bought mostly NOS tubes that tested well according to the sellers, and each pair sounds great at first — but after three to four weeks, they are full of loud crackles and buzzing. So far, I’ve burned through gray-bottle RCAs, black-bottle NUs, CBS-Hytrons, Tung-Sols, and vintage Soviet tubes from Upscale Audio. I figured it was my bad luck or that the sellers overrated them. So I bought some new-production Tung-Sols from Cryoset— and the same thing happened. The only pair that have been mostly quiet have been the Shuguang Treasures, and they’re pretty hissy, with occasional static. I was about to switch to LISST, but it appears I’m too late.

Does this mean I have a problem with the Freya itself?

Is it the socket savers?

Is my electricity impure?


----------



## TGeorgeL

CouryT said:


> I’ve had my Freya for about 8 months and it absolutely chews through tubes. I’ve bought mostly NOS tubes that tested well according to the sellers, and each pair sounds great at first — but after three to four weeks, they are full of loud crackles and buzzing. So far, I’ve burned through gray-bottle RCAs, black-bottle NUs, CBS-Hytrons, Tung-Sols, and vintage Soviet tubes from Upscale Audio. I figured it was my bad luck or that the sellers overrated them. So I bought some new-production Tung-Sols from Cryoset— and the same thing happened. The only pair that have been mostly quiet have been the Shuguang Treasures, and they’re pretty hissy, with occasional static. I was about to switch to LISST, but it appears I’m too late.
> 
> Does this mean I have a problem with the Freya itself?
> 
> ...


If it were me, I would buy 4 Tung-Sols from Schiit and see what happens.  If it is just what you have been experiencing, it would be up to Schiit re tubes or preamp.  I know when I sent mine back they did not want any tubes included, just the preamp.  It does sound like a bad preamp to me.  I have no experience (nor do I want any) with NOS tubes for the Freya.  Good luck!


----------



## Noldir

So I had some hiss in JFET mode from my speakers where I didn't have any with my previous preamp. So I hook up the Freya to my headphone system. 
The system (Phone to Freya with Taurus MK2 and HE-4xx / Koss Portapro) was dead silent. Even in tube mode. As in, not a hiss, pop or crackle. I first thought it was because I was running in balanced mode but even in single ended mode same effect.

I at least expected to hear a little tube noise (I tapped a microphonic one to check they where even doing their thing) but nothing.

Did I miss something somehow that it's now dead quiet? Freya was on 100% and Taurus at the "plenty loud" level


----------



## DrJam

CouryT said:


> I’ve had my Freya for about 8 months and it absolutely chews through tubes. I’ve bought mostly NOS tubes that tested well according to the sellers, and each pair sounds great at first — but after three to four weeks, they are full of loud crackles and buzzing. So far, I’ve burned through gray-bottle RCAs, black-bottle NUs, CBS-Hytrons, Tung-Sols, and vintage Soviet tubes from Upscale Audio. I figured it was my bad luck or that the sellers overrated them. So I bought some new-production Tung-Sols from Cryoset— and the same thing happened. The only pair that have been mostly quiet have been the Shuguang Treasures, and they’re pretty hissy, with occasional static. I was about to switch to LISST, but it appears I’m too late.
> 
> Does this mean I have a problem with the Freya itself?
> 
> ...



I have several pairs of old tubes I got off ebay including Sylvania, GE, RCA, Raytheon, Raytheon/Baldwin.  I can't call any of them NOS because I don't know they were actually new, but perhaps used but tested well by the sellers.  In any event, other than some tubes that arrived bad I haven't had any problems with any of the tubes - None have gone bad, and I pretty much use my freya all day every day since I got it more than a year ago.


----------



## CouryT

DrJam said:


> I have several pairs of old tubes I got off ebay including Sylvania, GE, RCA, Raytheon, Raytheon/Baldwin.  I can't call any of them NOS because I don't know they were actually new, but perhaps used but tested well by the sellers.  In any event, other than some tubes that arrived bad I haven't had any problems with any of the tubes - None have gone bad, and I pretty much use my freya all day every day since I got it more than a year ago.



Well, I think I’ll try filling out the Schiit help form and see what they say. I don’t think I can afford to buy new tubes every month!

Meanwhile, my volume knob makes a popping sound through the speakers at the same point on the dial when I raise or lower the volume. Anyone else have that issue?


----------



## DrJam

CouryT said:


> Well, I think I’ll try filling out the Schiit help form and see what they say. I don’t think I can afford to buy new tubes every month!
> 
> Meanwhile, my volume knob makes a popping sound through the speakers at the same point on the dial when I raise or lower the volume. Anyone else have that issue?



With this being my first tube amp I've wondered how long they will last, but I haven't noticed any issue of tube degradation at all. No degradation of sound quality or any crackles or buzzes or anything else. Right now I'm using some Raytheon/Baldwin and some GE that I've had for a while.  No complaints here, and I've had both sets on hand (but not necessarily in use) for a year.  Just the normal clicking when I change the volume (which is normal operation) but never any unexpected "pop".


----------



## Mondo Caliente

My Freya has been a tube rolling vehicle for a year or so, and all of the tubes used have performed swimmingly…NOS RCAs and Sylvania Chrome Domes are preferred these days, the Freya runs all day and well into the night (off when I'm out or TV distracted), dead quiet and gorgeous sounding…my experience with preamp tubes is they really last, as the input 6SN7GTB in my amp (single ended) has been perfect for a long time.


----------



## papoopeepoo

I've just received my Freya with new Tung-Sols 6SN7GTBs and octal LISSTs earlier this week. The fake tubes are much shorter than I was expecting. I'm lucky I have dexterous fingers because getting a strong hold on them could be tough for someone with weak hands. I haven't had a chance to listen to much music yet, so these are all just initial impressions. I installed the tubes first, and I noticed the tube in the right rear socket had some extra wiggle. On day one, the tubes were very quiet and clean sounding from my listening chair (86db efficient speakers). I listened for a few hours with no buzz or microphonics. A few days later, I'm now getting an intermittent buzz in the tube stage only. If I tap the right rear tube with a pencil, noise can be heard through the speakers. The other tubes don't act the same way. My stereo system is on a dedicated electrical circuit, and the circuit is used only for a few audio pieces, including a Gumby and a MacBook w an external hard drive for my iTunes. Tonight, I'll try keeping the sources turned off and try the Freya and power amp only to see if there are any buzz sounds. I haven't experimented much with the LISSTs yet. If the tube buzz remains, or gets worse, I'll contact Schiit and get a replacement set of tubes. I do like the sound of the tube stage with older music, so I'd like to, eventually, be able to enjoy the music rather than worry about the equipment constantly.


----------



## CouryT

CouryT said:


> I’ve had my Freya for about 8 months and it absolutely chews through tubes. I’ve bought mostly NOS tubes that tested well according to the sellers, and each pair sounds great at first — but after three to four weeks, they are full of loud crackles and buzzing. So far, I’ve burned through gray-bottle RCAs, black-bottle NUs, CBS-Hytrons, Tung-Sols, and vintage Soviet tubes from Upscale Audio. I figured it was my bad luck or that the sellers overrated them. So I bought some new-production Tung-Sols from Cryoset— and the same thing happened. The only pair that have been mostly quiet have been the Shuguang Treasures, and they’re pretty hissy, with occasional static. I was about to switch to LISST, but it appears I’m too late.
> 
> Does this mean I have a problem with the Freya itself?
> 
> ...




So today I finally decided to pack up my Freya and send it back to Schiit to have it checked out. Before unplugging it, I gave it one last listen so I could compare it with my old Marsh preamp, which would be filling in for it.

And the tubes were quiet for the first time in months — no crackling or buzzing, just a low-level hiss.

Then I tried rolling the volume knob up and down — no popping sound through the speakers.

What.

After months of making weird noises, it’s suddenly quiet and I can again enjoy tube mode. But how in the heck did it “fix” itself? Should I still send it back?


----------



## sam6550a

CouryT said:


> So today I finally decided to pack up my Freya and send it back to Schiit to have it checked out. Before unplugging it, I gave it one last listen so I could compare it with my old Marsh preamp, which would be filling in for it.
> 
> And the tubes were quiet for the first time in months — no crackling or buzzing, just a low-level hiss.
> 
> ...


Yes. Considering your "smoke" observation, the unit should be checked out. Did the 'tube swap excursion' cause PWB reflow on poor solder joints? Perhaps. Stranger things have happened.


----------



## jerick70

CouryT said:


> So today I finally decided to pack up my Freya and send it back to Schiit to have it checked out. Before unplugging it, I gave it one last listen so I could compare it with my old Marsh preamp, which would be filling in for it.
> 
> And the tubes were quiet for the first time in months — no crackling or buzzing, just a low-level hiss.
> 
> ...


My Freya partially "fixed itself" after I moved my wireless router out of my office, Changed to new production tubes, and the Freya settled into my system.  I ended up selling my Freya because it still had low level tube noise.  The Modwright LS100 that I replaced it with sounds much better, has no tubes noise, and has a world class tube headphone amp to boot.  No looking back for me....


----------



## DacBuddha

Finally set up my Freya and was worried a little after having read some of the issues on here. Fortunately I have not had any buzzing our any noise at all. However when playing with stock valves i was like what have i done. I was finding it hard to listen to. Gave it 4 days then decided to pop in some NOS tubes and wow. Absolutely amazing. So clean and detailed i didn’t want to take myself away from the music. I am set up balanced from Dac to Power so this may help. 
Early days yet as only been used for 1 week now but i feel very happy i ended up with a Freya. And only found and considered  Schiit from all the positive things from this site so thanks to all


----------



## Mondo Caliente

Wow…some good news! I've had my Freya for a year or so now and I feel I have to mention again that it's been extremely quiet (zero tube noise from any of the various NOS and other tubes used), no hiss, no microphonics, and even when using headphones and testing the hiss potential with a Schiit Loki cranked on the high end (it's generally off) it passes with flying colors. A great preamp! (except of course for those who had issues with them…which simply sucks).


----------



## DacBuddha

Sure not good for them. I listened to my tweeters last night as i was turning off Freya and omg hiss from both. Constant and no change re volume or in passive. Actually no change when tirned off. It actually comes from the power amp. Can only hear up to  12” away and is faint. At least it keeps my tweeters warm as leave it on 24/7.


----------



## Mondo Caliente (Dec 6, 2018)

What are the tubes you're using? I also have my Freya on Vibrapods along with everything else except my turntable…it has its own feet…I even have 'em under my speakers (Klipsch Heresy IIIs). I notice you haven't dimmed the LEDs on the Freya, and wonder if there are any alternatives to opening the lid for that…green pen remedy (a VERY bad idea I actually used as it's insane to close it up with the LEDs going back where they belong)…tiny plastic dots? Cut up old sunglass lenses? Translucent crayon bits?


----------



## DacBuddha (Dec 6, 2018)

Cool. I have not tried under speakers. Using spikes to concrete. 
tung sol GTB buffer side and Tronal GT in gain. Used my cheepest ones first and am blown away. Saving my specials when these go. Plus after i change my speakers maybe next year

How about you?


----------



## Jamiee

Put some component weights on that Freya and you'll hear a significant improvement in focus and overall clarity.
It may not be the prettiest approach, but you're ears will smile


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## DacBuddha

Jamiee said:


> Put some component weights on that Freya and you'll hear a significant improvement in focus and overall clarity.
> It may not be the prettiest approach, but you're ears will smile


Ok I shall find something suitable and give it a try


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## Mondo Caliente (Dec 6, 2018)

My entire Freya gets hot including the area over the transformers, so no "component weights" for me, although I'm not sure what those are…how about small corner installed "C" clamps binding the Freya to a slab of concrete as that would work in a gravity free environment. I use NOS RCAs in the gain and Sylvania Chrome domes in the output…both 6SN7GTBs, and why haven't I heard of Tronal tubes? Clearly there's something wrong with me. That said, I also have the original "mystery tubes," more Chrome Domes, as well as new Tung Sols for the thing.


----------



## Jamiee

I've tried a few different items, but have found simple stainless steel door stoppers to be the most effective at deadening Freya's cabinet.
They have a rubber bottom so won't slide around or scratch Freya's surface and have plenty of weight to hold Freya in place.  Attractive..... not really, but they get the job done!


----------



## DacBuddha

Mondo Caliente said:


> My entire Freya gets hot including the area over the transformers, so no "component weights" for me, although I'm not sure what those are…how about small corner installed "C" clamps binding the Freya to a slab of concrete as that would work in a gravity free environment. I use NOS RCAs in the gain and Sylvania Chrome domes in the output…both 6SN7GTBs, and why haven't I heard of Tronal tubes? Clearly there's something wrong with me. That said, I also have the original "mystery tubes," more Chrome Domes, as well as new Tung Sols for the thing.


Felt my Freya and yes this area is warm. I love the sound and also will not be placing anything on here.
This is what i found on my valves.

European electronics distributor that supplied high quality valves under its own brand name of Tronal.
These 6SN7GT are from the Russian Fonton Plant and date from the late 1950’s onwards.
This is a NOS Russian classic as the sound quality is exceptional in terms of detail and clarity.It is not muffled and dry like so many 6SN7GT.The valve comes with all the original Russian marking and with the addition of the Tronal red label branding. These are an exceptional 6SN7GT


----------



## Jamiee (Dec 7, 2018)

If you use something metalic (Steel, brass, etc...) as a weight it will act as a heatsink, pulling some of the heat away from the chassis.  My stainless steel door stops with their thin rubber base manage to do this.
Remove the rubber base and I'm sure they would become even more effective heatsinks.


----------



## DacBuddha

Is it normal for the circuit beneath the gain tubes to glow orange?


----------



## Mondo Caliente (Dec 8, 2018)

There are some little LEDs or something on the circuit board under the tubes that glow orange, not sure why but I've learned to live with it…I like the way the backs of the regular indicator LEDs also glow up through the tube venting holes, as clearly I have a low threshold of entertainment.


----------



## DacBuddha

Mondo Caliente said:


> There are some little LEDs or something on the circuit board under the tubes that glow orange, not sure why but I've learned to live with it…I like the way back side if the regular indicator LEDs also glow up through the tube venting holes, as clearly I have a low threshold of entertainment.


Thanks for fast reply. I have had Freya on playing for 12 hours solid and just noticed. I was just admiring the details and enjoying watching the valves as I listened. I am still so blown away by the performance of this beautiful Pre amp. Esp as so many pre’s are into multiple thousands 

Thanks again


----------



## Mondo Caliente

I've owned a LOT of preamps over the decades, and the Freya is somewhat unique as there's really nothing like it, and luckily I wound up with one that sounds astonishingly good with my gear heap. Note that I fixed the typos in my previous comment…man…


----------



## DacBuddha (Dec 13, 2018)

Lol yes past post edit is very handy.
Freya is my first preamp as i had owned an integrated cyrus 3 for 28 years. Added a Bryston 4b3 last year and to be honest £5000 later it still sounded virtually the same. Then Changed Dac after researching lead me to this site. One Gustard x22 later and wow outstanding improvement.
Still lacking soundstage but i guessed it was now my 30 year old mission 753 holding it back.
Along comes sweet Freya and i have to admit being disappointed . Disappointed my 753’s actually sound so darn fine. Lacking on deep base but so wonderful really.
Van damme cable through out. Balanced interconnects and 6mm shotgun speaker cables
Even my mate with reference kefs is amazed the 753 with Freya surpass their abilities
Let the music play


----------



## belgiangenius

Mondo Caliente said:


> I've owned a LOT of preamps over the decades, and the Freya is somewhat unique as there's really nothing like it, and luckily I wound up with one that sounds astonishingly good with my gear heap. Note that I fixed the typos in my previous comment…man…



The only preamps I've used that are in the same league as Freya are the Adcom GFP-750 and my Yamaha CX-1000.


----------



## llamaluv

Does anyone know the max impedance value of the passive volume control?

(For example, the Schiit Sys goes up to 5kohms and the Goldpoint RCA passive preamp is 25kohms.)

This will inform whether the impedance ratio with my speaker amp (15kohms) will be viable or not...


----------



## papoopeepoo

llamaluv said:


> Does anyone know the max impedance value of the passive volume control?
> 
> (For example, the Schiit Sys goes up to 5kohms and the Goldpoint RCA passive preamp is 25kohms.)
> 
> This will inform whether the impedance ratio with my speaker amp (15kohms) will be viable or not...




I don't think the impedance of the volume control affects the output impedance of any of the passive or gain stages. The signal does not travel directly through the pot used to trigger volume changes, so the variable impedance of the pot is used only as a determinate for the stepped attenuator. If the signal would travel through the pot, the output impedance may well jump up to 10k ohms on lower volume, and that would really kill the mesh between the freya and the power amp.


----------



## llamaluv

llamaluv said:


> Does anyone know the max impedance value of the passive volume control?
> 
> (For example, the Schiit Sys goes up to 5kohms and the Goldpoint RCA passive preamp is 25kohms.)
> 
> This will inform whether the impedance ratio with my speaker amp (15kohms) will be viable or not...





papoopeepoo said:


> I don't think the impedance of the volume control affects the output impedance of any of the passive or gain stages. The signal does not travel directly through the pot used to trigger volume changes, so the variable impedance of the pot is used only as a determinate for the stepped attenuator. If the signal would travel through the pot, the output impedance may well jump up to 10k ohms on lower volume, and that would really kill the mesh between the freya and the power amp.



Just got confirmation from Schiit that in passive mode, output impedance is 5k ohms worst case (in other words, same specs for this as the Sys).


----------



## brad1138 (May 8, 2019)

This room is about 12' W X 13'+ D X 8' H, the Tekton Lore-S speakers are about 94 dB efficient.

Tube noise at the listening position is very noticeable. So much so, I have pulled the tubes and only use passive mode now. I feel I like passive mode best with these speakers anyway, but I can't really judge tube mode, due to the noise....

The Freya is still under Wtty, but from what I have read I am likely to get it back with a No Problem Found, if I send it in. I have numerous sets of Tubes, including 4 Russian stock, 4 NP Tung Sols, 4 NOS Tung Sols, 2 Ken Rad Staggered plates and a number of others. They all have the same noise (some higher than others)

I should take dB readings with no input and the tubes in. The room generally reads about 30-35 dB at dead silent, measured with REW and a Umik-1 mic. I would guess, it would read in the 40s with the tubes in.

What would you guys do?

FWIW, the pictured Schiit Loki EQ was sent back, and is not in use in this system.


----------



## buke9

brad1138 said:


> This room is about 12' W X 13'+ D X 8' H, the Tekton Lore-S speakers are about 94 dB efficient.
> 
> Tube noise at the listening position is very noticeable. So much so, I have pulled the tubes and only use passive mode now. I feel I like passive mode best with these speakers anyway, but I can't really judge tube mode, due to the noise....
> 
> ...


 Send it back then. It was never advertised as a zero black pre amp as tubes have noise when nothing is playing but go ahead and send it back then as it isn’t for you. No need to beat around the bush it isn’t what you want then done move along as you don’t like it.


----------



## CouryT

brad1138 said:


> This room is about 12' W X 13'+ D X 8' H, the Tekton Lore-S speakers are about 94 dB efficient.
> 
> Tube noise at the listening position is very noticeable. So much so, I have pulled the tubes and only use passive mode now. I feel I like passive mode best with these speakers anyway, but I can't really judge tube mode, due to the noise....
> 
> ...



I spent about eight months thinking either 1.) I had horrible luck buying tubes because they would sound great for a while and then develop lots of glaring noise, or 2.) The Freya was defective and actively ruining the tubes. I was about to box it up and ship it back when the noise went away. Why? Because I had moved my Tube Box DS phono away from the Freya as I prepared to disconnect it. At least, I *think* that’s the reason. Since then, I moved the phono amp to a different shelf, and the Freya has quieted down a lot—to what I think is a “normal” level of tube hiss, which I usually only hear with my ear to the speaker. Now, tubes that were once crackling, buzzing, and/or humming are mostly quiet. 

So, if you still have other components on or next to the Freya, try moving them apart and see if anything changes.


----------



## brad1138

buke9 said:


> Send it back then. It was never advertised as a zero black pre amp as tubes have noise when nothing is playing but go ahead and send it back then as it isn’t for you. No need to beat around the bush it isn’t what you want then done move along as you don’t like it.




I have had it for over 2 years, don't think I can send it back... I had it in a different system, with speakers that were 84 dB efficient, and the tube noise wasn't an issue. But I swapped the preamps for better synergy, and I like it best this way. I think I would probably like passive mode better in this system anyway, I am just trying to get others thoughts on if this is a defective unit or not.

From reading I have done, it has more tube noise that your average tube preamp. Plenty of people talk about only being able to hear tube noise with your ear right against the speaker, this you could hear from 20-30 feet away.....


----------



## LouS

brad1138 said:


> I have had it for over 2 years, don't think I can send it back... I had it in a different system, with speakers that were 84 dB efficient, and the tube noise wasn't an issue. But I swapped the preamps for better synergy, and I like it best this way. I think I would probably like passive mode better in this system anyway, I am just trying to get others thoughts on if this is a defective unit or not.
> 
> From reading I have done, it has more tube noise that your average tube preamp. Plenty of people talk about only being able to hear tube noise with your ear right against the speaker, this you could hear from 20-30 feet away.....



I think that you may have noisey tubes. I'll check my Freya when I get home. I have about 94db efficient speakers so I ought to be able to tell you something reasonably definitive. I don't really use the Freya anymore or I would probably have an immediate response for you.

Best Regards,

Lou


----------



## bmanone

Hey brad1138, I had slight hissing noise using tubes (stock Russian tubes and new Tungsols), I switched to LSSTs and the noise went away.  I can only hear a faint hiss with my ear less than an inch away from the tweeter.  To me me the LSSTs sound as good or better than tubes and seem to be more musical than passive or JFET mode.  Have you tried them, you might be able to find a used quad? Bonus, the LSSTs don't seem microfonic at all. My Freya  is version 1.1, I'm pretty sure.


----------



## brad1138

bmanone said:


> Hey brad1138, I had slight hissing noise using tubes (stock Russian tubes and new Tungsols), I switched to LSSTs and the noise went away.  I can only hear a faint hiss with my ear less than an inch away from the tweeter.  To me me the LSSTs sound as good or better than tubes and seem to be more musical than passive or JFET mode.  Have you tried them, you might be able to find a used quad? Bonus, the LSSTs don't seem microfonic at all. My Freya  is version 1.1, I'm pretty sure.



The LSST  option has puzzled me... Doesn't a Solid state tube defeat the entire reason behind having tubes?  if you are going to use a solid state tube, why not just use the buffered or passive option?

I think I'll stick with the passive option in this set up, I like it better than buffered, or tube.


----------



## Mondo Caliente

I have to wonder if my Freya is so quiet because of the various regulated power supplies in the rig, a Humbuster, and decent cables....or luck...Zero hum, and that's with efficient horns...The tubes sound so good I only use the other modes to amuse myself and as a Tube Honesty tool...in any case it's interesting anybody has issues with hum and I sympathize with those users, but still feel the Freya (mine anyway) is an excellent sounding preamp, and I've owned a pile of preamps over the years. I also don't get the LSST thing as tubes are so much fun, and, although this shouldn't matter, they look cool...maybe it's for gain increase, but if I used LSSTs I'd paint a tube on them.


----------



## brad1138 (May 9, 2019)

Mondo Caliente said:


> I have to wonder if my Freya is so quiet because of the various regulated power supplies in the rig, a Humbuster, and decent cables....or luck...Zero hum, and that's with efficient horns...




Must be nice....

I do have one of the earlier versions where the tube gain stage was 13 dB, I think later versions have been changed to 7 dB or so.

I don't have a single set of tubes that aren't noisy, so I don't think it could just be the tubes.


----------



## bmanone

The LSST use depletion-mode MOSFETs and are suppose to have similar performance characteristics to tubes. I bought a quad set when I read that Schitt was going to stop making them.  I'm glad I did, I like their sound so much that they're all I use now.  I even removed the 4 tube savers from my Freya.  Also brad1138, recently in the Schitt happens thread Jason stated it's not recommended to run the Freya without tubes installed.


----------



## brad1138

bmanone said:


> The LSST use depletion-mode MOSFETs and are suppose to have similar performance characteristics to tubes. I bought a quad set when I read that Schitt was going to stop making them.  I'm glad I did, I like their sound so much that they're all I use now.  I even removed the 4 tube savers from my Freya.  Also brad1138, recently in the Schitt happens thread Jason stated it's not recommended to run the Freya without tubes installed.



Interesting, as I am almost positive I read where he said it was fine to run it w/o tubes..... I'll have to try to find that. 

But if that is the case, I will likely look to sell it and find a different option. No point in burning up tubes I am not using....


----------



## DrJam

brad1138 said:


> Must be nice....
> 
> I do have one of the earlier versions where the tube gain stage was 13 dB, I think later versions have been changed to 7 dB or so.
> 
> I don't have a single set of tubes that aren't noisy, so I don't think it could just be the tubes.



I also have one of the earlier versions of Freya in an Office/Bedroom system, and I'm either 20' or 3' from the speakers depending on which room I'm in.  I can't hear tube noise unless my ear is on the speaker; just did this test with Freya volume on max.  Right now I'm using some GE(GTB) and Raytheon/Baldwin tubes, but don't hear anything when using Sylvania, RCA, or GE(GTA) either.  Seems like the noise might be a little more noticeable with the stock Russian tubes, but I haven't used those in quite a while so I don't remember for sure.

FYI: System is Oppo 105D->Freya->Vidar->Monitor Audio Silver 8 and a Rythmic E15HP sub.


----------



## jtsteph

Mondo Caliente said:


> I have to wonder if my Freya is so quiet because of the various regulated power supplies in the rig.



I had a lot of issues initially with the Freya introducing tube noise into my system. I use the Freya in my work suite to liven things up on my monitors when I am listening for  pleasure instead of work. Comfortable listening level was at about 9:00 on the dial.

After speaking with Schiit about it, I attenuated the monitors to the max (attenuation is switchable on my monitors) and decreased the reference level on my RME to +7dBu and the noise disappeared. It is silent - completely silent in tube mode. Comfortable listening level is now at about 1:00 with the tubes engaged. 

I think if you can add attenuation after the Freya it helps.

Listening-Mode setup: W10>Roon>HQPlayer>USB>Intona>USB>RME ADI 2 Dac fs>BAL>Freya (w Quad of Sylvania GTBs top getter)>BAL>Neumann KH120As


----------



## CouryT

Looks like Freya has been updated with a new, quieter tube stage: 

https://www.schiit.com/products/freya-2


----------



## Noldir (May 31, 2019)

Well damn, I just bought one.....

Nice to see they have a Freya solid state only version as well. Would like to know if the new Freya+ also has the Nexus topology like the new Freya S


----------



## Jamiee

Wow.  I don't think I've ordered something new that fast, ever.....   New Freya+ on the way!


----------



## CouryT

So how much can you sell a used Freya for these days?

I’ll probably wait to see some reviews before buying the new one, but did you see the red T logo on the product page?

*What is this weird red T logo on the page?*
It indicates that Freya+ is part of our "Product Thunderdome" idea. As in, "two or more products enter, maybe none leaves." If you buy a lot of Freya+, we will make a bunch more. If you don't, it'll disappear after this run. So, if you like the idea of a Freya+, buy one now. Because it might not be around forever.


----------



## LCMusicLover

CouryT said:


> So how much can you sell a used Freya for these days?...


I've seen listings for $400 & $450 come up this week.  Definitely a drop since the new product announcement.


----------



## Matro5

As a Freya owner, I don't think there's enough here for me to want to upgrade to Freya+, but if I were buying new, I'd be very happy with the changes, as they've solved nearly every quibble I have with my unit. What would have gotten me to upgrade? Turning Freya into Ragnarok2 + tube minus the power amp. 

So, Freya+ plus multibit card option, top-shelf headphone jacks, including balanced output. That would be a killer product...at least for me.


----------



## Jamiee

*Freya  PCB:*

 

*Freya +  PCB:*



*Freya S  PCB:
 *


----------



## skiroe

Have been reading enough of this thread  --few pages at the start and 3 or 4 at the end-- and definitely agree with the poster who noted that the problem is with the Freya and not the tubes.   Ive owned and listened to enough tube gear to know when I am hearing complaints about issues with hum (esp)  that those complaints are indicative of unit issue and not the tubes per se (for the most part)      What brought me to this thread  in the first place is interest in buying a Freya and with my sensitivity to hum issues I would not buy one until maybe now with the Plus available.  Very interested in hearing what those who have bought the Plus have to say about hum.  If that issue has been resolved.   I had just recently been using a Modwright LS100  (6sn7 & 5ar4 rectified)   with glorious results and sold it because of simply wanting something a bit more size compatible with my rack.   The LS100 is big.   Does not fit really in either of my racks unless I would move the feet creating smaller footprint but then chassis still quite big in there but would work.   I had been using it on the top shelf of my third rack which was specifically for my TT--- a shorter Sanus steel and glass rack just the right height to accommodate my TT.  But then TT went to main rack --not good.   Almost regretting selling it.   I did get a good price and actually made some money on it which does not happen for the most part in this "hobby"  ..  Maybe buy another and just set up yet another single piece rack for the huge LS100.   Schiit was definitely have some QC or topology design issues and would hope they get it worked out.


----------



## belgiangenius (Jun 2, 2019)

skiroe said:


> Have been reading enough of this thread  --few pages at the start and 3 or 4 at the end-- and definitely agree with the poster who noted that the problem is with the Freya and not the tubes.   Ive owned and listened to enough tube gear to know when I am hearing complaints about issues with hum (esp)  that those complaints are indicative of unit issue and not the tubes per se (for the most part)      What brought me to this thread  in the first place is interest in buying a Freya and with my sensitivity to hum issues I would not buy one until maybe now with the Plus available.  Very interested in hearing what those who have bought the Plus have to say about hum.  If that issue has been resolved.   I had just recently been using a Modwright LS100  (6sn7 & 5ar4 rectified)   with glorious results and sold it because of simply wanting something a bit more size compatible with my rack.   The LS100 is big.   Does not fit really in either of my racks unless I would move the feet creating smaller footprint but then chassis still quite big in there but would work.   I had been using it on the top shelf of my third rack which was specifically for my TT--- a shorter Sanus steel and glass rack just the right height to accommodate my TT.  But then TT went to main rack --not good.   Almost regretting selling it.   I did get a good price and actually made some money on it which does not happen for the most part in this "hobby"  ..  Maybe buy another and just set up yet another single piece rack for the huge LS100.   Schiit was definitely have some QC or topology design issues and would hope they get it worked out.



I tend to agree.  I was excited about Freya when it first came out and ordered one right away.  I quickly found it to be unusable in tube mode with all but the quietest tubes.  Probably 70% of the tubes I have are just too noisy to use in Freya.  I switch to solid state mode when listening to quiet music, but the tubes keep on burning.  That surprised me the first time I used Freya.

I have now ordered a Freya + to solve all the issues I have with Freya, but I do kind of feel like I've been forced to repurchase this preamp because the original was not entirely baked.

I had put a simple note in my order asking if I could receive the unit without tubes and get a discount for the value of the tubes to at least save the price of the tubes in repurchasing this unit.  The unit is scheduled to be delivered tomorrow.  I got no communication from Schiit on the matter and it looks like the full price has been deposited on my credit card - so I guess I have the answer to my question.

I do understand the company's position in this situation - but I also wouldn't call the customer service good.


----------



## llamaluv

belgiangenius said:


> I have now ordered a Freya + to solve all the issues I have with Freya, but I do kind of feel like I've been forced to repurchase this preamp because the original was not entirely baked.



Totally agree. I'm pretty interested in the updated models, but it'd be ridiculous to take in these new developments in an uncritically positive manner.


----------



## skiroe

Well,  wanted to respond directly to you both  but I  have to figure out the sequence with the quoting thing.      So, until I figure it out..suffice to say yes,,  I don't think asking to ship sans tubes and get  credit is too much to ask esp in this situation.   Customer base is the lifeblood of a company and customers satisfaction should be primary objective.    At any rate,  I won't keep going on about it.   Anxious to hear what you come up with belgiangenius


----------



## Jamiee

With the right tubes my Freya v1 has been nearly dead silent, that said it has taken some fiddling around to find the right tubes to work with it.   I'm currently using a pair ea. of Shuguang & Psvane CV181 treasures.

I do look forward to receiving the Freya +  (scheduled for delivery tomorrow) and can't say I feel forced into the upgrade, after all with the right tubes, Freya v1 does sound great!   I do welcome the new features though, which should make Freya an even better preamp.  

I will agree that a "no tube" option should have been available at the time of ordering - taking into consideration existing Freya owners, but at the end of the day, I don't mind having an extra set of NS TUNG-SOL's on-hand.


----------



## belgiangenius (Jun 2, 2019)

skiroe said:


> Well,  wanted to respond directly to you both  but I  have to figure out the sequence with the quoting thing.      So, until I figure it out..suffice to say yes,,  I don't think asking to ship sans tubes and get  credit is too much to ask esp in this situation.   Customer base is the lifeblood of a company and customers satisfaction should be primary objective.    At any rate,  I won't keep going on about it.   Anxious to hear what you come up with belgiangenius



Yeah, I'm looking forward to it!  I have always loved Freya - it's a great preamp, and now it should be literally awesome.  I'm just a bit annoyed I had to buy it twice to resolve these fairly obvious shortcomings with the first revision.

I'll probably just Ebay the original one to recover whatever cost I can.


----------



## Mondo Caliente

It's clear the Freya was problematic for some owners (although of course I have no idea what percentage of owners that would be, and my "original" version works virtually noiselessly with every tube I've stuck in it) who experienced hum issues, and if in some cases Schiits response to dissatisfied customers was less than what customers expected, clearly, that's never a good thing these days. However, to utterly redesign the Freya into two products that seemingly addresses directly the quibbles of those dissatisfied users is kind of amazing, and I've never seen anything like that. Good Schiit.


----------



## Jamiee (Jun 3, 2019)

Got my Freya + today.....   First Impression.... NOT a fan of the new "fastenerless" chasis design.

Why?   Because my unit shipped with a loose LED light lens (clear plastic piece) for the buffer/Gain selector LED's (It was rattling around inside the chassis).  This is a new design from the previous v1 Freya and has the LED's surface mounted direct to the board with the lens hovering above, transferring the light to the front panel. Interesting design, but trying to get the lens (which appears to be held in with friction) back into place was a pain...  Would have been waaay easier if I could have opened up the chassis - is this thing glued? .   Ultimately I had to place a drop of krazy Glue inside to keep the lens in place (also not an easy task considering there are buttons in very close proximity to the lens, one small drop of glue in the wrong spot and you've got a stuck button).

Anyway, with that done I just finished plugging everything in and will let it warm up for a while before having a listen.


----------



## Jamiee (Jun 4, 2019)

*
So here's my initial impressions of Freya +*




*A)  Looks like a Freya...   Other than the lack of a few chassis assembly screws along the top and an updated identification sticker on the back, it looks virtually identical to Freya v1.

B) Front pannel LED lights...   Because of the new LED light configuration (mentioned in my previous post), the LED's appear less bright and have a very subtle yellow tinge to them.  My previous Freya v1 and current Yggdrasil A2 have brighter & whiter LED's.  I do like the Dimmer look of the Freya +, though it doesn't quite match my Yggy A2 now.

C) Hot Hot Heat...  Freya + is definitely warmer than Freya v1 by some margin in tube gain mode.   Not quite burn your hand hot, but very close!   

D) Sound (Tube Gain)...   Using my previously run in Tubes (Shuguang & Psvane CV181 treasures) - the sound is more different than I was expecting.  Mid range is warmer, a touch more rounded and not quite as forward and with less bite compared to Freya v1.  Top and bottom ends seem smoother. Overall the sound is more natural - I quite like what I hear so far! 

E) Volume...  It seems I have to turn the volume up a touch more compared to Freya v1 to get to similar levels.  Turning the volume all the way down does not fully mute the sound - I can still hear some output of the material being played (similar to Freya v1).

F) Volume Knob...  The new volume pot definitely has more resistance to it (read: harder to turn).  Also, it's a redesigned pull-off / push-on type with no set screw to hold it in place.  If you used to use the set screw as a tactile indicator of the volume position while in a dark room environment, well... it's gone 

G) Mute...  Yes, finally!  depressing the mute button actually mutes the volume 100%.

H) Tube noise / Hum...   Can't say I notice any significant difference so far - at least with the tubes I'm using.  Though I will say the "click's" from adjusting the volume are noticeably less pronounced through my speakers compared to Freya v1.*


----------



## Thenewguy007

Any changes so far with more burn-in time?

Seem like the + is just a warmer version of the v1 so far?


----------



## TheSnafu

You can hear attenuator clicks through speakers ?


----------



## QueYo

I have a tube noob question about matched tubes on the Freya.  If I am using the Single Ended outs on an original Freya, does that mean I am only using one of each tube's dual triodes?  If so, does that mean I only need to worry about matching one of the triodes for each pair?  And would that be consistent across the numerous tube testers out there, i.e. the numbers will always be given in the same order with respect to the one I care about?

I hope the questions make sense.  Basically wondering if I find a couple 6SN7's tested at 1500/2000 & 1500/1000, would they be matched in Single Ended use.


----------



## Jamiee (Jun 6, 2019)

Thenewguy007 said:


> Any changes so far with more burn-in time?
> 
> Seem like the + is just a warmer version of the v1 so far?



Better features, improved overall sound...  it is what it say's it is.... A Freya *+.       *Some might say it's what Freya should have originally been, but I'm not going to get into that argument.
So Is it worth the price of admission if you already have a v1 Freya?   That's tough to answer and I suppose would depend on if you're happy with your Freya.    Being Canadian I paid an arm, a leg, and both kidneys to get the Freya + here.  All-in, I'm pretty close to $1,600 CAD delivered -- Yeah, OUCH!   
Is it sixteen-hundred bux better than Freya v1....  no of course not.  But it is better and I'm OK with that. 

Burn-in time so far hasn't added anything significant to the mix.  I will say the sound has become a little more settled - more even across the board.  Pretty typical stuff for electronics & especially tubes.  That said, I don't have a lot of hours on the unit yet.
I found Freya v1 to be a little edgy (slightly shout'y) at times with some material - which I mistakenly attributed to Yggdrasil.   With Freya +, it's smoother and slightly more coherent, more natural sounding, with more air around singers and instruments.





TheSnafu said:


> You can hear attenuator clicks through speakers ?



Yeah, those relay clicks (especially on Freya v1) are loud enough to vibrate the tubes, and depending on how microphonic / noisy the tubes, I can easily hear the clicks through my speakers.
Very good low noise tubes are nearly silent, but I've had some that were anything but!


----------



## nilov

Hi.
How to understand what lisst tubes died?
I have few octal tubes in tried it in my preamp Saga, and and they have big disortion,and work only left channel in headphones (in buffer mode).
In passive mode and with tube tungsol with buffer mode saga work perefect.
Example yesterday im tried 2 octal tubes in buffer mode and it worked perefect,but today not.


----------



## Lennym

Jamiee said:


> *So here's my initial impressions of Freya +*
> 
> *C) Hot Hot Heat...  Freya + is definitely warmer than Freya v1 by some margin in tube gain mode.   Not quite burn your hand hot, but very close!   *


Is it so hot that it raises any concerns about the performance life of the preamp?


----------



## Jamiee

Lennym said:


> Is it so hot that it raises any concerns about the performance life of the preamp?



Schiit is aware that it runs hotter and they don't seem too concerned about it.   Just be sure (as with the original Freya) to give the unit lots of breathing room, particularly if you're running it in tube mode.


----------



## Mondo Caliente

My Freya (original version) is well vented but gets pretty toasty over the transformers more than near the tubes, which of course have their own vents...never to any extreme though and I run the thing a lot...plenty of venting holes contribute to my not worrying about it but it certainly is a hot little preamp.


----------



## skiroe

QueYo said:


> I have a tube noob question about matched tubes on the Freya.  If I am using the Single Ended outs on an original Freya, does that mean I am only using one of each tube's dual triodes?  If so, does that mean I only need to worry about matching one of the triodes for each pair?  And would that be consistent across the numerous tube testers out there, i.e. the numbers will always be given in the same order with respect to the one I care about?
> 
> I hope the questions make sense.  Basically wondering if I find a couple 6SN7's tested at 1500/2000 & 1500/1000, would they be matched in Single Ended use.


I can't tell you which side of the triode is operating what channel or how it figures into single ended.   What I can tell you based on my communication with Roger Kennedy who restores tube testers  (He restored my Hickok 752A)   is that firstly the kind of tube testers that we use --the most common kind --the ones that techs used to carry around with them are called "field testers"   and really are not the definitive word or are capable of  delivering professional results.     These testers are capable in the best case scenarios  of just being able to give a general impression of tube condition and as importantly you can't , for the most part,  get a test reading from one brand and expect it to get the same number on another brand.  If the other brand happens to give test results using the same formula (number results) then possibly  it may be similar results although calibration of the testers has had to be done.    The ancient testers like my Hickok and other similar testers need to be gone through by an expert like Roger Kennedy in order to at least perform their best for what they can do.   

It has been said by more than one expert on these testers that its basically a test to weed out the really bad tubes.    There are better and more accurate tube testers of course that  will measure aspects of the tubes to more closely match -- like voltage gain. 
what you are going to find out with the tubes you mentioned is more about any microphonics ,  or more tube hiss  in terms of how good the tubes you mentioned are.   I don't think those test numbers are going to make a difference --they are close enough.   What will make a difference is voltage gain and these testers do not measure that.       Hope this makes sense.   I used to think the same thing as most people do---that these testers are the end all to knowing the condition of the tube..   This will be more helpful than my rant ...  These testers primarily test for GM and more needed to accurately gauge how well tube will perform.   check this article.  
http://www.tubeaudiostore.com/tubmatdem.html


----------



## DacBuddha

Been using Freya for about 6 months now and loving it everyday. Last week while away on holiday  i read on here re Freya+ sounds perfect right. 
Rather then burning valves all day you can play passive and then burn valves when you enjoy some quality listening time.  

Order placed today for Freya+.


----------



## Dan Lee

Hello all,

Have any of you heard of a freya being used with a KGSSHV Carbon?  I would like to be able to inject some tube sound into my Carbon but not sure if its doable or not.

Thanks


----------



## skiroe (Jun 16, 2019)

Dan Lee said:


> Hello all,
> 
> Have any of you heard of a freya being used with a KGSSHV Carbon?  I would like to be able to inject some tube sound into my Carbon but not sure if its doable or not.
> 
> Thanks


if  it connects in a typical way to a preamp (which it appears to do--i see out/input on the Carbon)  I would think that the Freya will impart tube flavor.


----------



## skiroe

Very interested in hearing  those who have just put the plus into their system.   Im still debating but only because I would like to have tape in/out,, I would like to displace my full function Sonic Frontiers Line 1 with a 6sn7 based pre.  Finding full function not easy to do.  I did communicate with Schiit  about adding options but not available.


----------



## shogo33

I had the Freya v1 two years ago when it came out and in this form, i felt it had some shortcomings from a design perspective after using it for 6 months, i ended up selling it.  The main issue was tube noise, second was the volume pot, which didnt sync with the remote - which was cheap and tacky.  Sound wise, it didnt quite match up with my MW LS100, which sounded fuller by comparison.  I want to give the Freya + another go, but lets see how this one pans out.


----------



## MrTrickle

skiroe said:


> Very interested in hearing  those who have just put the plus into their system.   Im still debating but only because I would like to have tape in/out,, I would like to displace my full function Sonic Frontiers Line 1 with a 6sn7 based pre.  Finding full function not easy to do.  I did communicate with Schiit  about adding options but not available.



New member, first post, but I’m that dude that just put a Freya+ into my system. Before I got the Freya I was running a Decware Zen Torii MK3 without a preamp into Zu Presence speakers. I was looking for more gain/weight/dynamics, plus the ability to add more sources than just phono and tuner. When I got an iPhone without a headphone jack and I couldn’t stream music old school any longer into my main system it was time to get a dragonfly red and start looking for a preamp that wouldn’t break the bank and could play well with the Torii.

I got clued into the original Freya reading the usual forums and ended up wading my way thru this thread. At about page 50 or so, I was ready to give it a shot. Literally the day I was going to pull the trigger on the tubed Freya, 4 new versions popped up. Ridiculous. Especially because it was clear that Schiit listened to the design complaints about the original Freya and made it better while dropping the noise floor significantly. With high efficiency speakers it matters a lot. So thanks to all that have contributed to this thread; the good, bad, and the ugly! The 6NS7 knowledge in here is invaluable to me because I’ve only ever dealt with 6922/6DJ8 and 12AU and 12X7s input tubes.

I’ll add an actual review in a bit.


----------



## Ghosthouse

Hello folks.  A quick question (hopefully).  Have had a Freya (Gen 1) since early 2017.  It's been great.  Very flexible.  Quiet (other than from the occasional noisy tube).  Very satisfied with it.  
I mostly use the JFET buffer mode on it and install tubes only occasionally (do have socket savers in place).  In addition to the good sound in JFET mode, I like being able to leave the unit powered up (on mute) 24/7 without burning tubes.  Is anyone aware of any concerns or downside to running the unit long term WITHOUT any tubes installed?  Again, this is for the original Freya.  

Thanks in advance for your reply.


----------



## Alcophone

Ghosthouse said:


> Is anyone aware of any concerns or downside to running the unit long term WITHOUT any tubes installed?  Again, this is for the original Freya.



There has been conflicting information about this, but it's apparently NOT recommended.

Some quotes, not in order:


sam6550a said:


> Not true. For Freya, with no tubes installed, the B+ bus voltage increases to a value where the power supply capacitors are overstressed. Contact Schiit before you decide to try it.





sam6550a said:


> Your quoted post is from 2010. I sent an inquiry and some measurements to Schiit in March 2018 about this and Jason personally replied to me: "I'll investigate further, and in the meantime, let tech know not to recommend running without tubes or LISST". Sometimes issues are overtaken by events.





ZoNtO said:


> As of March 28, 2019, Schiit tech support says "[y]ou can run the [F]reya just fine without tubes. Shouldn't be an issue." Perhaps @Jason Stoddard could clarify whether running changes were made to address this issue? We know there have running changes to Freya given the gain in tube mode was 5 (14dB) at launch and is now 2.5 (8dB).





Jason Stoddard said:


> I'll talk with tech support. I don't think we're recommending running Freya without tubes. Sorry for the confusion.





TGeorgeL said:


> I also got an email from tech support yesterday saying it was ok to run my Freya without tubes.


----------



## Ghosthouse

Alcophone said:


> There has been conflicting information about this, but it's apparently NOT recommended.
> 
> Some quotes, not in order:



Alcophone - Thanks so much for pulling those quotes together.  I did in fact search in HeadFi and elsewhere.  Did not come up with the info you provided.  Thanks again.  
I'm a bit surprised about this.  Wish something had been placed in the owner's manual (or in the Schiit FAQs).

Looks like I'll have to amend my operating practices (forego 24/7 power up).


----------



## llamaluv

I'd say the requirement of keeping tubes connected while running the preamp in non-tube mode should be seen as another major design shortcoming of the v1.0 (or maybe "v0.9"?) version of the Freya. No small wonder that it's not clearly communicated in their materials.

- Salty Freya owner  :/


----------



## skiroe

shogo33 said:


> I had the Freya v1 two years ago when it came out and in this form, i felt it had some shortcomings from a design perspective after using it for 6 months, i ended up selling it.  The main issue was tube noise, second was the volume pot, which didnt sync with the remote - which was cheap and tacky.  Sound wise, it didnt quite match up with my MW LS100, which sounded fuller by comparison.  I want to give the Freya + another go, but lets see how this one pans out.



I just had the LS100 in here and frankly after all these years of having a few different tube preamps the LS100 turned out to be the game changer and was the revelation on what a 6sn7 based preamp can do..     I suppose on one level I sold it because it is a quite huge chassis and required either a separate rack or re-position its feet to fit into my main system rack although likely a bit cramped .   (the bedroom system as well and that has quite a big top shelf on it)   The full functionality of my SF line 1 had something to do with it as well which includes having  the very well made hockey puck aluminum remote and that it had been sent to Parts connexion last year  for volume control upgrade and a cap upgrade I think possibly.    So,  difficult to let an old friend like that go.    For full functioned 6sn7  preamp  that ticks all the boxes I would.   The LS100 operates very quietly and has start up mode,  input selection on the remote,  tape in/out,  XLR connects,,etc.    The optional metal remote is $200.   the stock remote is nothing special but works.    Im considering just going for another.   It also employs a rectifier tube --5AR4 which is another classic and can be had in vintage form such as Amperex ,  Mulllard,, et al.


----------



## Mike-WI (Jun 20, 2019)

*Schiit Audio Freya Preamplifier Reviewed*
By Dylan Seeger | June 19, 2019
https://hometheaterreview.com/schiit-audio-freya-preamplifier-reviewed/

[[Editor's note: as we were going to publication with this review, Schiit announced two new versions of its Freya preamp: the Freya S, which lacks this model's tube gain stage; and the Freya +, which features a new tube stage with DC heaters and a noise-cancelling semi-circlotron output buffer, and a new differential JFET buffer stage, which converts signle-ended signals to balanced, among other enhancements.]]


----------



## belgiangenius (Jun 20, 2019)

Mike-WI said:


> *Schiit Audio Freya Preamplifier Reviewed*
> By Dylan Seeger | June 19, 2019
> https://hometheaterreview.com/schiit-audio-freya-preamplifier-reviewed/
> 
> [[Editor's note: as we were going to publication with this review, Schiit announced two new versions of its Freya preamp: the Freya S, which lacks this model's tube gain stage; and the Freya +, which features a new tube stage with DC heaters and a noise-cancelling semi-circlotron output buffer, and a new differential JFET buffer stage, which converts signle-ended signals to balanced, among other enhancements.]]



Megaweird.  I don't think I've seen a magazine review a product that isn't available anymore - unless it was clearly vintage.  Seems he even found an old one with the plastic remote.  No point reading that...


----------



## Mike-WI

belgiangenius said:


> Megaweird.  I don't think I've seen a magazine review a product that isn't available anymore - unless it was clearly vintage.  Seems he even found an old one with the plastic remote.  No point reading that...



Sounds like they were already "in [e-]press", but agree, only of historical interest.
And noting the "CON" section now addressed by new pre-amp versions.


----------



## Mondo Caliente (Jun 20, 2019)

That review is pretty lame in addition to it being rendered instantly irrelevant, but that can't stop me from ranting a bit: Tubes run hot? Really...they're TUBES...the power switch is so easy to locate (my stuff is turned on by a power conditioner, but if I want the tube pre and power amps off and other non tube items left on when I'm out for a bit I reach in there and hey...flip the damn switch...) this can only be seen as a silly quibble. Man...I'm sort of amazed that after all the user reviews and Schiit's own comments that anybody feels the amazingly well designed relay switching volume clicking is an issue as it only makes noise when changing levels...and if tubes are so microphonic that this affects them (which I seriously doubt it can) you're using very bad tubes. By the way, wondering where the volume is on the older Freya relative to what you might have adjusted with the remote requires listening to it, and that design works swimmingly requiring one to turn the knob to where the remote level was before manually adjusting the level...is that really an issue? Hmmm....I keep my "original vintage" (owned since 12/17 or something) on a lot, it doesn't burn through tubes, and I've assembled a pile of 6SN7GTBs anyway because NOS GEs (my fave for this preamp, and there's one in my little single ended power amp) are relatively inexpensive...generally less than new Tung Sols by the way. The issue of warm up time is also pretty funny as, again, they're TUBES and the Freya warm up takes what...40 seconds? I think one buys the Freya because it's a tube amp, and now you can buy one because it's not. It's also not 4 thousand dollars. I don't leave even my non tube gear on 24/7 as I can wait for warm up and don't trust gear to take care of itself. The guy with the Freya+ shipped with a loose LED lens perhaps should have immediately sent it back for a fresh one, although the non-screw case design is kinda strange...glue? Welded? Some inner clamping system? Schiit maybe just dumps flawed ones as they do with their very inexpensive stuff, but I generally open new gear just to look at it (or in the case of my Freya to dim the LEDs) so, meh. If I need a preamp for a second system someday (although I still have the balanced, dual mono, 30 lb SS pre the Freya replaced) I'd buy the Freya+ in a heartbeat mostly because, luckily, my now "classic" version works perfectly, runs humlessly, and sounds fabulous.


----------



## Zer0.p0int.Zer0

Are we including Freya S discussion here? Obviously tube rolling does not apply. 

How do you think the S is selling in compared to the plus?

Seems like Freya + with tubes is getting much more attention, but I am really happy with Nexus with Freya S.


----------



## Mondo Caliente

I think that's an interesting question regarding sales of "S" and "+" Freyas, and I would hope some well regarded reviewer would look at these things. This assumes there's a well regarded reviewer out there someplace. Note that you can still buy tubes for the "S" model, you simply won't be able to use them with it.


----------



## Noldir

Anyone compare the S and the + on solid state mode yet?


----------



## Mondo Caliente

Here's a thing...since the "original version" Freya I own keeps the tubes on all the time, you can switch around from passive/FET to the tubes instantly, which I do from time to time to insure the tubes are still tubey enough or for any reason...boredom, itchiness...so I now assume that the Freya + turns the tubes off immediately so you would be waiting for warmup before they kick in again...so to Freya + owners, is this what happens? I gotta know...


----------



## DacBuddha

Mondo Caliente said:


> Here's a thing...since the "original version" Freya I own keeps the tubes on all the time, you can switch around from passive/FET to the tubes instantly, which I do from time to time to insure the tubes are still tubey enough or for any reason...boredom, itchiness...so I now assume that the Freya + turns the tubes off immediately so you would be waiting for warmup before they kick in again...so to Freya + owners, is this what happens? I gotta know...


Yes this is exactly how it is. I also suffer the same as you but to wait for the warm up is no problem


----------



## Dan Lee

Hi guys I recently got a WA22 to use as a preamp and headphone amp.  I find now that I dont require its use as a headphone amp as I simply cant find any cans that compete with the 009S.  I was wondering if any of you have ever compared the preamp function of the WA22 or its sound in general to the sound of the Freya.

I really like the features of the Freya + and the difference in price is nice too.  I would appreciate any input you guys could offer.  Thanks


----------



## Matro5

Dan Lee said:


> I was wondering if any of you have ever compared the preamp function of the WA22 or its sound in general to the sound of the Freya.



I can’t help here, but as the owner of a Freya who is considering a Wa22 I’m very interested in this comparison, too.


----------



## Dan Lee

Well I can tell you the WA22 is truly a great tube amp.  It is the first real all tube amp I have owned.  I previously owned a Schiit Mjolnir 2 which I really loved and was able to find some really great tubes for it that created some very tonally sweet sounds.  I can tell you the WA22's stock tubes are typically not very good.  Amps still sounds good, but just not as good as one would think.  I recently upgrade my rectifier and driver tubes and its pretty damn amazing just how much the soundstage opened up and brought that beautiful 3 dimensional holographic nature to it that only tubes seem to produce.  I've also got some power tubes on the way.

The reason I go this over the Freay + was because it would allow me to run planars again if I wanted to.  I got a pair of Ether 2's which before I got into electrostatics I like the most even more then the LCD4.  Maybe I got an off sounding 4 cause I don't think they are supposed to get beat by a headphone that costs half as much.  But anyway the E2's I got only came with SE cables and my system is running fully balanced.  It still plays music, but it certainly cant compete with the SR 009S.  I did order a balanced cable as a last ditch effort.  If that doesn't pan out  I will likely sell the WA22 and E2's and get the Freya +.  Even if it doesn't sound quite as good which I find hard to believe if you find the right tubes its got a few other features I really want.  Being able to go to a passive mode and run my carbon SS again will be nice, plus my forgetful mind will be grateful for the auto tube shutdown mode if I forget.  Last I'm... well I'm lazy and having a volume remote would be awesome.   

So I may have a WA22 for ya soon at a steal haha.  I go this thing new like 3-4 weeks ago.


----------



## attmci

Dan Lee said:


> Hi guys I recently got a WA22 to use as a preamp and headphone amp.  I find now that I dont require its use as a headphone amp as I simply cant find any cans that compete with the 009S.  I was wondering if any of you have ever compared the preamp function of the WA22 or its sound in general to the sound of the Freya.
> 
> I really like the features of the Freya + and the difference in price is nice too.  I would appreciate any input you guys could offer.  Thanks


Time to get rid of the WA22 if you don't like it anymore.


----------



## acguitar84

Dan Lee said:


> I previously owned a Schiit Mjolnir 2 which I really loved and was able to find some really great tubes for it that created some very tonally sweet sounds.



That's cool that you liked the Mjolnir 2. In my "research" on my new amp quest I came across posts from you where you really loved the Mjolnir/Gumby combo and the next thing I saw you sold them. Do you ever regret getting rid of the Mjolnir 2? 

It's a crazy hobby for sure! The Mjolnir 2 seems like a good upgrade from Jot and tube rolling wouldn't be really expensive either. Hope everything works out with your search. For the record I do have a Freya (original one) and I really like it. I just use it as a preamp with speakers along with a yggy.


----------



## Dan Lee

attmci said:


> Time to get rid of the WA22 if you don't like it anymore.


I really do like the WA22.  It's quite a fantastic amp and has improved a great deal from tube upgrades.  My only reason for considering selling it in favor of a Freya is purely based on cost and features.  If I knew the Freya could sound just as good or at least close to as good as the WA then it would be the way to go if I am not going to use the WA headphone portion of the amp.  The WA sells new for $2500 and If I could sell it for around the $2K mark plus or minus a bit and sell my E2's then I'm saving a lot of money plus getting a few nice features.  My only concern is whether or not I can achieve a sound signature thats close to the WA's.



acguitar84 said:


> That's cool that you liked the Mjolnir 2. In my "research" on my new amp quest I came across posts from you where you really loved the Mjolnir/Gumby combo and the next thing I saw you sold them. Do you ever regret getting rid of the Mjolnir 2?
> 
> It's a crazy hobby for sure! The Mjolnir 2 seems like a good upgrade from Jot and tube rolling wouldn't be really expensive either. Hope everything works out with your search. For the record I do have a Freya (original one) and I really like it. I just use it as a preamp with speakers along with a yggy.


The Gumby/Mj2 combo was indeed very good.  I do think however that an Yggy/Mj2 combo would be the better way to go as Gumby/Mj2 combo was just a little to warm sounding.  I just saw you have an Yggy so you would be golden in that regard.  I had the Jot before those two and you are 100% correct, the MJ2 is absolutely a good upgrade from the Jot.  I don't regret selling the MJ2 cause I much prefer the stage I am at now, but I did enjoy the MJ2 while I had it.  With the right tubes and headphones it can sound rather magical.  It is also a hell of a lot less money to roll good tubes with.  The WA on the other hand can get rather costly quite quickly.  

I'm gonna wait and see how the E2's sound balanced.  If I find I am not to impressed with them then I will be postin some stuff for sale and getting my hands on a Freya Plus.


----------



## Zer0.p0int.Zer0

Man, I moved my Freya S to my basement system feeding 2 Pass amp camp amps I built into a pair of old KLH Model 6s and the sound is phenonenal.


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## Paladin79 (Sep 17, 2019)

I have not read this entire thread so pardon me if any of this is redundant.

I am running a Freya + fed by a Gumby.

My power amp is a Cary SLA 70 Mk II into some very efficient Definitive Technology speakers.

My absolute favorite tubes for the Freya are Melz 1578's, you have to be pretty cautious when you buy these but once you learn what to watch for, they can be unlike anything else I have run in the Freya.

Other tubes I like, in order:

CBS/Hytron 5692's
RCA grey glass 6sn7GT's
Ken-Rad Black Glass VT-231's
Foton 1953 and 1954 ribbed plates (many from the fifties sound quite good and can be had in pairs or quads, they become quite stable when you replace the solder in the pins.)
Sylvania tall body 7n7's,loktal, they require an adapter and once again you need to know what to watch for.


Some of these types of tubes were involved in a recent shoot out conducted by Jason, those were single tubes though and naturally you need matched pairs for the Freya.


----------



## Paladin79

These are some very good low price Russian tubes, 1953 Fotons with ribbed plates, perfectly matched and once I have replaced the solder, they are good for many years to come. I use a high silver content solder and carefully add liquid rosin into the pin cavity before replacing the solder. I carefully clean the pins before retesting them, and in this case both read a slightly better emission when I was done.


----------



## facethemusic88

Gentlemen,

I am looking to get a pre-amp(Freya +) to replace my Denons. My preferred setup would be to add a pre-amp to my Nad 208 Thx(250w into 8ohms) power amp to power my Focal Opal loudspeakers(4ohms/150w). 

Given that I have XLR terminals on my poweramp, I would like to go Balanced instead of SE. 

I was considering Parasound P5 as another option. I would appreciate any opinion/guidance here. Thank you.


----------



## EELawson

facethemusic88 said:


> Gentlemen,
> 
> I am looking to get a pre-amp(Freya +) to replace my Denons. My preferred setup would be to add a pre-amp to my Nad 208 Thx(250w into 8ohms) power amp to power my Focal Opal loudspeakers(4ohms/150w).
> 
> ...



Freya +.  Balanced.  Tubes.  Awesome.


----------



## Paladin79 (Oct 25, 2019)

My tubes of preference today are two cbs/hytron 5692's on the left side and two Melz 1578's on the right, both are 6sn7 equivalents.

One of my speaker amps is a Cary, and the Freya really opens it up. I run a Mjolnir 2 and a Gungnir with the Freya and I nearly have the headphone amp dialed in with the proper complimentary tubes.


----------



## TubeDriver

I am measuring the external temp of the top casework of the Freya+ over the PT/rectifiers at 46-50 C depending on location.  That is really hot for a preamp.   I have not opened the unit up yet (how is this even done?) but the interior temp is probably higher.   Assuming they are using standard 85 C caps and not high temp caps (105 C), there might be issues in a couple years?   Not venting the top cover and perhaps the bottom plate on the left side of the preamp was a mistake IMHO.The tube stage sounds pretty good and is VERY quiet for a tube preamp, almost no additional noise on my 100+ db efficient horns.  The Freya+ is plugged into a dedicated balanced power conditioner which might help a bit? The line buffer stage sounds decent, not as good as my autoformer preamp.  The passive sounds like.... a resistive passive device with all the pluses and minuses associated with that form of potentiation.    My Freya+ came with JJ 6SN7s and not Tung Sols which was a mild disappointment.  I have not tube rolled yet, still evaluating it during its 14 day return window period. 




Mondo Caliente said:


> My Freya (original version) is well vented but gets pretty toasty over the transformers more than near the tubes, which of course have their own vents...never to any extreme though and I run the thing a lot...plenty of venting holes contribute to my not worrying about it but it certainly is a hot little preamp.


----------



## Mondo Caliente

I own both the Tung Sols and JJs (bought out of curiosity) but I prefer NOS GEs. I was also surprised when Schiit went for the JJs but...meh...who knows? It actually has been a couple of years of heat in my "openable" (albeit not so closeable...learned my lesson there) original Freya and it performs flawlessly, and in my mind it has 3 years (warranty) left before I care much if at all...at 800 bucks (not counting the ever growing 6SN7 pile) that's a pretty good "per year" return.


----------



## Paladin79

Mondo Caliente said:


> I own both the Tung Sols and JJs (bought out of curiosity) but I prefer NOS GEs. I was also surprised when Schiit went for the JJs but...meh...who knows? It actually has been a couple of years of heat in my "openable" (albeit not so closeable...learned my lesson there) original Freya and it performs flawlessly, and in my mind it has 3 years (warranty) left before I care much if at all...at 800 bucks (not counting the ever growing 6SN7 pile) that's a pretty good "per year" return.



I would be curious which GE’s you are using. Some were branded GE and built by other manufacturers. Can you put up photos?

I use no GE tubes other than power tubes. My favorite Freya + tubes are Melz 1578’s with CBS/Hutton 5692’s. Occasionally I will run a quad of the Melz but the SQ is almost too good, or maybe just too much of a change.


----------



## TubeDriver

Mondo Caliente said:


> I own both the Tung Sols and JJs (bought out of curiosity) but I prefer NOS GEs. I was also surprised when Schiit went for the JJs but...meh...who knows? It actually has been a couple of years of heat in my "openable" (albeit not so closeable...learned my lesson there) original Freya and it performs flawlessly, and in my mind it has 3 years (warranty) left before I care much if at all...at 800 bucks (not counting the ever growing 6SN7 pile) that's a pretty good "per year" return.



I have heaps of NOS tubes as well.  I have never been a big fan of JJ tubes, these 6SN7s are a bit bright sounding.  Modern production Tung Sols have nice tone but are lacking a bit in air and higher freq ext.  I always like the sound of GE 6SN7GTAs over most GE GTBs although I have no idea why the heater delay feature found in GTBs should make a difference?


----------



## Mondo Caliente

Too lazy for pics, but if you look for GE NOS 6SN7GTBs on Ebay (Viva tubes lists a pile of 'em) they all look like that...mine all look the same also from various venders including some from a guy in the next town...side getters, ladder grey "flat plates" etc. I looked up the Melz but those seem rare and pricey, which won't stop me from likely trying a pair at some point! I have some Sylvania "chrome domes" that sound real good also...


----------



## Mondo Caliente

The heater delay seems a little mysterious to me also but does make sense I suppose...the JJs don't have a delay and didn't cause my amp to explode but stress on the other tubes is hard to quantify...I have a 6SN7GTB in my power amp also, which is why I've accumulated so many.


----------



## Paladin79 (Nov 1, 2019)

Mondo Caliente said:


> Too lazy for pics, but if you look for GE NOS 6SN7GTBs on Ebay (Viva tubes lists a pile of 'em) they all look like that...mine all look the same also from various venders including some from a guy in the next town...side getters, ladder grey "flat plates" etc. I looked up the Melz but those seem rare and pricey, which won't stop me from likely trying a pair at some point! I have some Sylvania "chrome domes" that sound real good also...


No problem on the photos thanks. I bought pretty much every type GE tube I could find for a tube challenge. I did not send any to Jason at Schiit for his 6SN7 equivalent shootout. All 6SN7’s were sealed in pvc so it was a form of a blind listen. You can find Melz in pairs but a matched pair or quad of some of tubes I sent would be tough to find and afford. I still have a lot of 6SN7’s sealed like this for those who want to do a blind listen. I built my own octal extensions so that the tube bases would not show. Some say CCCP on them, etc.

I did an eight tube challenge with one GE tube in order to win a bet. A stipulation was the tube had to have the GE dot system on it, so I could not substitute a tube made for GE.

Get with me if you decide to buy any Melz, there are distinct characteristics you want, and some of the Russian solder can get a bit janky after 60 years or so.


----------



## Paladin79 (Nov 1, 2019)

Mondo Caliente said:


> The heater delay seems a little mysterious to me also but does make sense I suppose...the JJs don't have a delay and didn't cause my amp to explode but stress on the other tubes is hard to quantify...I have a 6SN7GTB in my power amp also, which is why I've accumulated so many.


Which power amp?

I run 6SN7 equivalents in 6 or 7 amps and own a lot of the single triode tubes that can be used in their place.


----------



## Meanstreak242

Hopefully this hasn't been answered already.

For the Freya + does changing tubes on one side vs the other make any sonic difference?  (As the right tubes are for differential voltage gain, and the left are for the cathode follower output stage.)  Right now I'm looking at changing just the tubes on the right, as I would assume they'd have a bigger difference than the other stage.   Am I correct in assuming this?  Or if they do have sonic differences (which being different stages I imagine they would,) any combination of tubes seem good?  

I'm looking at either RCA 6SN7GT GTB Black Plates, or GE 6SN7GTA 1950' at the moment.


----------



## Paladin79

Meanstreak242 said:


> Hopefully this hasn't been answered already.
> 
> For the Freya + does changing tubes on one side vs the other make any sonic difference?  (As the right tubes are for differential voltage gain, and the left are for the cathode follower output stage.)  Right now I'm looking at changing just the tubes on the right, as I would assume they'd have a bigger difference than the other stage.   Am I correct in assuming this?  Or if they do have sonic differences (which being different stages I imagine they would,) any combination of tubes seem good?
> 
> I'm looking at either RCA 6SN7GT GTB Black Plates, or GE 6SN7GTA 1950' at the moment.


Changing the tubes on the right gives the most impact. You need not use matched quads, matched pairs are needed of course.

My favorite RCA is the grey glass even though I have owned black glass as well. They and Sylvania made some very good tubes.  If you can catch some GE’s made after they bought Ken-Rad, they can be quite good. (GE branded but Ken-Rad made.)


----------



## Mondo Caliente

My power amp is a Dennis Had Inspire "Firebottle" HO ("high output") SEP of around 12wpc depending on power tubes.


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## Paladin79 (Nov 2, 2019)

Mondo Caliente said:


> My power amp is a Dennis Had Inspire "Firebottle" HO ("high output") SEP of around 12wpc depending on power tubes.


I run one of Mr. Had’s earlier amps from when he was with Cary. I also have worked with one of his preamps and phono preamp. Oh and for info on tubes and Cary products I generally turn to @bcowen. This is a guy who can name a high number of 6sn7's by just listening to them in blind testing. Through him you could learn of some really high quality tubes in the GE price range made by Foton and others. I can help a bit there as well.

I own or have owned all of Schiit’s tube products except for the Saga. That includes building about ten of the Coaster Amps. A small hybrid amp that can be a tricky build unless you are fairly experienced in electronics, but it can also be used as just a coaster.


----------



## skiroe

Paladin79 said:


> No problem on the photos thanks. I bought pretty much every type GE tube I could find for a tube challenge. I did not send any to Jason at Schiit for his 6SN7 equivalent shootout. All 6SN7’s were sealed in pvc so it was a form of a blind listen. You can find Melz in pairs but a matched pair or quad of some of tubes I sent would be tough to find and afford. I still have a lot of 6SN7’s sealed like this for those who want to do a blind listen. I built my own octal extensions so that the tube bases would not show. Some say CCCP on them, etc.
> 
> I did an eight tube challenge with one GE tube in order to win a bet. A stipulation was the tube had to have the GE dot system on it, so I could not substitute a tube made for GE.
> 
> Get with me if you decide to buy any Melz, there are distinct characteristics you want, and some of the Russian solder can get a bit janky after 60 years or so.





Paladin79 said:


> Get with me if you decide to buy any Melz, there are distinct characteristics you want, and some of the Russian solder can get a bit janky after 60 years or so.


----------



## skiroe (Nov 2, 2019)

I have a couple of Melz I picked up a few years back when I had a custom 2a3 SET built.   It would of been a good amp but for the fact the builder really cheeped out on the power transformer --an old one under spec likely too-- and had horrible hum.   The Melz purportedly came from Brent Jesse ..   Very good sound although one developed a intermittent noise which I suspect may well be from old solder on a pin somewhere and have read about re heating solder etc, although not comfortable going there.   I had sent that amp back and the latest 6sn7 based was a Modwright LS100 which I sold --good sound as well but a huge preamp which is not very rack friendly.     this all led me to finding out about Freya.
At any rate would like to hear the details you have compiled re/the best Melz.    I have the gray plate 5 hole/spring on the rods , nickel base,  M stamp and the OTH stamp ..  Ive read different things about the 1578 stamp being present or not.  Also, would suspect a certain amount of counterfeit out there at least as far as stamping goes..   For what's it worth..  Over the last 10 yrs have read a lot of negative info about JJ tubes.   A tech I use in southern Cali once took in a vintage integrated I had and the only thing wrong with it was I was using some new JJ tubes.   (7591's)   I shipped that amp down to him and back of course on my money only to find out how bad the tubes were.   Question is has JJ improved on quality .

I messed up the quoting process.   doh.. newbie on forums but not on equipment..lol


----------



## Mondo Caliente

When I'm drinking an iced beverage I often think, "man...if only this coaster could be an amp." When I noticed the Schiit coasters I had no idea they were actually a thing that could work as an amp...amazing.


----------



## Paladin79 (Nov 2, 2019)

I had to get with Jason to figure out the first ones but I may well be the first person outside of Schiit to get one going.  Here is one I built into a flying saucer, the lights  would flash with the music. I did this for my granddaughter. I also mounted one in an 8-ball and inside a headphone stand.

I am looking for the Melz info, there is a decent chart someone created. I will post it when I find it.


----------



## Paladin79

skiroe said:


> I have a couple of Melz I picked up a few years back when I had a custom 2a3 SET built.   It would of been a good amp but for the fact the builder really cheeped out on the power transformer --an old one under spec likely too-- and had horrible hum.   The Melz purportedly came from Brent Jesse ..   Very good sound although one developed a intermittent noise which I suspect may well be from old solder on a pin somewhere and have read about re heating solder etc, although not comfortable going there.   I had sent that amp back and the latest 6sn7 based was a Modwright LS100 which I sold --good sound as well but a huge preamp which is not very rack friendly.     this all led me to finding out about Freya.
> At any rate would like to hear the details you have compiled re/the best Melz.    I have the gray plate 5 hole/spring on the rods , nickel base,  M stamp and the OTH stamp ..  Ive read different things about the 1578 stamp being present or not.  Also, would suspect a certain amount of counterfeit out there at least as far as stamping goes..   For what's it worth..  Over the last 10 yrs have read a lot of negative info about JJ tubes.   A tech I use in southern Cali once took in a vintage integrated I had and the only thing wrong with it was I was using some new JJ tubes.   (7591's)   I shipped that amp down to him and back of course on my money only to find out how bad the tubes were.   Question is has JJ improved on quality .
> 
> I messed up the quoting process.   doh.. newbie on forums but not on equipment..lol








Here is some of the best info I know of. My favorite year is 1963 on these tubes. I do not just re-flow the solder on the pins, I remove it, add liquid flux, and then a high grade of solder with some silver content. Other Russian tubes I know of, Fotons, folks were saying they sounded great after 100 hours of burn in. I doubted this, replaced the solder and after an hour or two of burn in they were quite good. Typically the Melz 1578 will bring $90 to $120 on Ebay with good reason. I know of at least two gentlemen who run four of them in the Freya with amazing results. Generally folks send me the tubes and I redo the solder just to help out.


----------



## skiroe

Paladin79 said:


> Here is some of the best info I know of. My favorite year is 1963 on these tubes. I do not just re-flow the solder on the pins, I remove it, add liquid flux, and then a high grade of solder with some silver content. Other Russian tubes I know of, Fotons, folks were saying they sounded great after 100 hours of burn in. I doubted this, replaced the solder and after an hour or two of burn in they were quite good. Typically the Melz 1578 will bring $90 to $120 on Ebay with good reason. I know of at least two gentlemen who run four of them in the Freya with amazing results. Generally folks send me the tubes and I redo the solder just to help out.



thanks for that graph..  I think I have seen it and read your posts re/Melz..   According to your graph  I do have the original 1578..  interesting  how the  little extension on the mica is called a ledge. ..  to me the entire mica has a ledge but have to differentiate somehow.  
So,  you can reflow this tube for me?


----------



## skiroe (Nov 2, 2019)

Here's 1 of the pair I have ..


----------



## Paladin79 (Nov 2, 2019)

skiroe said:


> thanks for that graph..  I think I have seen it and read your posts re/Melz..   According to your graph  I do have the original 1578..  interesting  how the  little extension on the mica is called a ledge. ..  to me the entire mica has a ledge but have to differentiate somehow.
> So,  you can reflow this tube for me?



I can replace it for you yes. I do not like to leave much of the old solder inside the pins. It does not take long to completely remove it. Then I use liquid flux and a high quality solder to replace the old. I test it before and after on my tube tester as well. I do not charge anything for doing this.

Here I am using a pick to let a drop of liquid rosin flow inside the pin before adding rosin core solder.


----------



## Paladin79 (Nov 2, 2019)

skiroe said:


> Here's 1 of the pair I have ..



That certainly looks to be correct. I have never damaged a tube doing this, I have considerable experience soldering and the same methods were used to build all the extensions I used for the Schiit shootout. I used identical red tube bases so there was no indication whatsoever which tube was in which cylinder. I also built all cables, as identical as I could make them, and built the splitter so the signal could go to four Sagas at once. In private tests the Melz finished second to a Ken-Rad VT231 black glass, a very exceptional tube. Extensions I soldered inside the four Sagas as well. I have soldered a few tube pins.   And earlier folks were talking GE tubes, that is a 6sn7GTB in the Vali 2, I used it in a tube challenge with a buddy in North Carolina. He bet me a steak dinner and bottle of wine on the challenge and came within one tube of winning.


----------



## skiroe

Paladin79 said:


> I can replace it for you yes. I do not like to leave much of the old solder inside the pins. It does not take long to completely remove it. Then I use liquid flux and a high quality solder to replace the old. I test it before and after on my tube tester as well. I do not charge anything for doing this.
> 
> Here I am using a pick to let a drop of liquid rosin flow inside the pin before adding rosin core solder.



Sent you a pm.   What particular setting on your tester shows an issue?   on shorts test?    I could not turn anything up on my Hickok tester and going to try again as maybe you can give a pointer on what will show the issue.


----------



## Paladin79 (Nov 2, 2019)

As far as poor solder I have had one side or the other measuring low, after soldering emission matches on both triodes. I have had microphony and readings change as you tap on the tube.

I have not seen any issues on shorts test on the Melz. Did you say you had a bad one? If the tester shows it as fine you may want to be sure the pins are clean.


----------



## Lennym

Speaking of socket savers, does anyone use socket savers that stand tall enough to clear the top of the Freya+?  I don't know if that would be a different height than on the original Freya.  Thanks in advance.


----------



## skiroe

Paladin79 said:


> As far as poor solder I have had one side or the other measuring low, after soldering emission matches on both triodes. I have had microphony and readings change as you tap on the tube.
> 
> I have not seen any issues on shorts test on the Melz. Did you say you had a bad one? If the tester shows it as fine you may want to be sure the pins are clean.


From what I recall of when I tested it a few months back nothing showed on the tester.   The pins and the tube are clean--tubes are in excellent condition . .. dont think thats the issue.  As mentioned in pm  get a bit of static when tube was tapped on when in the socket possibly if I recall but have more recall of   the tube doing it on its own...  .. been awhile.  I didn't  really mess with it too much and put a different  6sn7 in there and it was ok..    Sold the preamp with a set of new production Tung Sol.          going to test the tube on tester again but likely will send it to you for re-flow. At the moment I dont  have a amp that uses 6sn7 to try it out.    I could give it a try doing the reflow  but considering these were 150 each when I bought them I dont want to risk messing up the tube.  Do you use a solder sucker to get out old solder?   (along with a pick)


----------



## Paladin79

skiroe said:


> From what I recall of when I tested it a few months back nothing showed on the tester.   The pins and the tube are clean--tubes are in excellent condition . .. dont think thats the issue.  As mentioned in pm  get a bit of static when tube was tapped on when in the socket possibly if I recall but have more recall of   the tube doing it on its own...  .. been awhile.  I didn't  really mess with it too much and put a different  6sn7 in there and it was ok..    Sold the preamp with a set of new production Tung Sol.          going to test the tube on tester again but likely will send it to you for re-flow. At the moment I dont  have a amp that uses 6sn7 to try it out.    I could give it a try doing the reflow  but considering these were 150 each when I bought them I dont want to risk messing up the tube.  Do you use a solder sucker to get out old solder?   (along with a pick)



I use a solder sucker and some pretty small solder, under .031 inch. I would be happy to resolder it at no charge to see if that helps. I can test it in four different amps.


----------



## Paladin79

Lennym said:


> Speaking of socket savers, does anyone use socket savers that stand tall enough to clear the top of the Freya+?  I don't know if that would be a different height than on the original Freya.  Thanks in advance.


I have had both versions of the Freya and my socket savers sit just below the top plate.


----------



## malenak

skiroe said:


> ...
> Over the last 10 yrs have read a lot of negative info about JJ tubes.   A tech I use in southern Cali once took in a vintage integrated I had and the only thing wrong with it was I was using some new JJ tubes.   (7591's)   I shipped that amp down to him and back of course on my money only to find out how bad the tubes were.   Question is has JJ improved on quality .
> ...


Hmm, it`s interesting to read this. I am using JJ 6SN7 in my Lyr3 which I am using it as an preamp for my headphone rig. Overall my JJ sounds very nice and I think better after more than 100+ hours, than right after it arrived. Definitely cleaner, more spacious, better control and overal better sound performance like the original Russian NOS stock. Russian stock tube which came with my Lyr3 is not a bad at all. It is warmer, with less detail, less soundstage and definitely less layered bass. JJ is just better in every way. But, sometimes the Russian is also fun. It depends from the mood and I am happy, that I have that option to choose the sound taste according my actual mood. Now I am waiting for some more tubes (Tung Sol, Electro Harmonix, PsVane).

Why I am writing this, I really am curious, how does the other tubes will sound, because overall I like my JJ 6SN7 so much and also Schiit include them to ship with the Lyr3 and probably with Freya+ as well. If these tubes will be bad, I think, they will definitely not include them into their options.

And the best part about this is, they sounds good, actually very good based on my experience. And these are new production for very friendly price. It means, they are not hard to get, they`re not expensive and you have a much better chance to get good paired tubes, like with some NOS options out there, which are getting more expensive and harder to pair.


----------



## Lennym

malenak said:


> Hmm, it`s interesting to read this. I am using JJ 6SN7 in my Lyr3 which I am using it as an preamp for my headphone rig. Overall my JJ sounds very nice and I think better after more than 100+ hours, than right after it arrived. Definitely cleaner, more spacious, better control and overal better sound performance like the original Russian NOS stock. Russian stock tube which came with my Lyr3 is not a bad at all. It is warmer, with less detail, less soundstage and definitely less layered bass. JJ is just better in every way. But, sometimes the Russian is also fun. It depends from the mood and I am happy, that I have that option to choose the sound taste according my actual mood. Now I am waiting for some more tubes (Tung Sol, Electro Harmonix, PsVane).
> 
> Why I am writing this, I really am curious, how does the other tubes will sound, because overall I like my JJ 6SN7 so much and also Schiit include them to ship with the Lyr3 and probably with Freya+ as well. If these tubes will be bad, I think, they will definitely not include them into their options.
> 
> And the best part about this is, they sounds good, actually very good based on my experience. And these are new production for very friendly price. It means, they are not hard to get, they`re not expensive and you have a much better chance to get good paired tubes, like with some NOS options out there, which are getting more expensive and harder to pair.



I was very disappointed when I saw that my new Freya+ came delivered with JJ tubes.  Of course all of this SQ stuff is system dependent.  However, a ride around the net, and even around this thread, reveals that the JJs have a reputation for a harsh upper end, and that certainly is my impression.  Schiit continues to market the Freya+ showing Tung Sol tubes and promoting reviews that give specific credit to the Tung Sols for the fine sound of the Freya+ in tube mode.  Permit this cynic to note that the JJs are cheaper to send along with the preamp than are the Tung Sols.  As we teach in corporate finance, cost cutting goes directly to the bottom line.  From my point of view, the price of the Freya+ has gone up by the cost of 4 Tung Sols.  But I can see where my SQ is going and the purchase is still worthwhile to me.


----------



## malenak

Lennym said:


> I was very disappointed when I saw that my new Freya+ came delivered with JJ tubes.  Of course all of this SQ stuff is system dependent.  However, a ride around the net, and even around this thread, reveals that the JJs have a reputation for a harsh upper end, and that certainly is my impression.  Schiit continues to market the Freya+ showing Tung Sol tubes and promoting reviews that give specific credit to the Tung Sols for the fine sound of the Freya+ in tube mode.  Permit this cynic to note that the JJs are cheaper to send along with the preamp than are the Tung Sols.  As we teach in corporate finance, cost cutting goes directly to the bottom line.  From my point of view, the price of the Freya+ has gone up by the cost of 4 Tung Sols.  But I can see where my SQ is going and the purchase is still worthwhile to me.


I will get the Tung Sol and Electro Harmonix tubes during upcoming 1-2 days. I will get them some tens of hours before making any judgement, but I am really curious how they will sound. Because I really think that my JJ sounds amazing.


----------



## skiroe

malenak said:


> Hmm, it`s interesting to read this. I am using JJ 6SN7 in my Lyr3 which I am using it as an preamp for my headphone rig. Overall my JJ sounds very nice and I think better after more than 100+ hours, than right after it arrived. Definitely cleaner, more spacious, better control and overal better sound performance like the original Russian NOS stock. Russian stock tube which came with my Lyr3 is not a bad at all. It is warmer, with less detail, less soundstage and definitely less layered bass. JJ is just better in every way. But, sometimes the Russian is also fun. It depends from the mood and I am happy, that I have that option to choose the sound taste according my actual mood. Now I am waiting for some more tubes (Tung Sol, Electro Harmonix, PsVane).
> 
> Why I am writing this, I really am curious, how does the other tubes will sound, because overall I like my JJ 6SN7 so much and also Schiit include them to ship with the Lyr3 and probably with Freya+ as well. If these tubes will be bad, I think, they will definitely not include them into their options.
> 
> And the best part about this is, they sounds good, actually very good based on my experience. And these are new production for very friendly price. It means, they are not hard to get, they`re not expensive and you have a much better chance to get good paired tubes, like with some NOS options out there, which are getting more expensive and harder to pair.



Good to hear that you have had good performance with the JJ.   Mine is only one experience based on a short term use and the complaints I have read .   Likely being the tube market has gotten more competitive that JJ has improved on quality control.    I think Im a bit biased in favor of vintage as well.    I did pick up some new production Tung Sols for the LS100 I had briefly and those went with the preamp when I sold it.           My issue re/ going for the Freya + is I am using a full featured Sonic Frontiers Line 1 which has more than enough in/outputs w/tape monitor ,,etc.  I'm set on 6sn7 based replacement but need to have full featured in order to give up the SF.  Ive been very tempted to go for the Freya,  I had messaged with Schiit re/adding tape monitor to the unit but thats not happening.   FWIW-   I 've not heard a preamp as good sounding as a 6sn7 based pre which easily beats out the SF for musicality.   At least to my ears.


----------



## Mondo Caliente

The most recent Schiit site has JJs listed for the Freya +. Note again that NOS GEs (my current preferred tube) can be found for around the cost of the new Tung Sols...also NOS Sylvania "chrome domes" seem plentiful and that's another great tube at seemingly reasonable prices.


----------



## skiroe (Nov 4, 2019)

Lennym said:


> I was very disappointed when I saw that my new Freya+ came delivered with JJ tubes.  Of course all of this SQ stuff is system dependent.  However, a ride around the net, and even around this thread, reveals that the JJs have a reputation for a harsh upper end, and that certainly is my impression.  Schiit continues to market the Freya+ showing Tung Sol tubes and promoting reviews that give specific credit to the Tung Sols for the fine sound of the Freya+ in tube mode.  Permit this cynic to note that the JJs are cheaper to send along with the preamp than are the Tung Sols.  As we teach in corporate finance, cost cutting goes directly to the bottom line.  From my point of view, the price of the Freya+ has gone up by the cost of 4 Tung Sols.  But I can see where my SQ is going and the purchase is still worthwhile to me.


  I avoided buying them after my brief use in that integrated vintage Sherwood I had probably a good 10 yrs ago or so.    Aside (for now) from the tube preference   I do have an interest in how Schiit set up the stepped volume control  esp at this price point and am really curious as  to what certainly should be an improvement over typical volume pot.


----------



## Lennym

Mondo Caliente said:


> The most recent Schiit site has JJs listed for the Freya +. . .


Not in the Product Description; not in the Product Specifications.  It is now buried in the FAQ section.
Meanwhile, all the pictures there show the Freya+ with Tung Sol tubes, and most notably the reviews on the site give the Tung Sol tubes major credit for the SQ they praise.  That is advertising that no longer applies.  There should IMO be a disclaimer in front of these reviews that are on the site.  Schiit seems to be a good and well liked company.  I think they continue to make a mistake here.  I like the preamp and will be looking for tubes to replace the JJs.  Quickly.


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## jseymour (Nov 4, 2019)

Lennym said:


> Not in the Product Description; not in the Product Specifications.  It is now buried in the FAQ section.
> Meanwhile, all the pictures there show the Freya+ with Tung Sol tubes, and most notably the reviews on the site give the Tung Sol tubes major credit for the SQ they praise.  That is advertising that no longer applies.  There should IMO be a disclaimer in front of these reviews that are on the site.  Schiit seems to be a good and well liked company.  I think they continue to make a mistake here.  I like the preamp and will be looking for tubes to replace the JJs.  Quickly.



Doesn't matter if Tung-Sol or JJ.  Current production 6SN7 are average at best.  But Schiit needs to offer something if people want a complete product.  But they should also offer a tubeless option.  Then no complaints.  For me, NOS is the way to go.


----------



## Mondo Caliente

I think they're simply going for what they can use that works and doesn't get sent back for microphonics or hum and is relatively inexpensive for them to buy in bulk...my now utterly collectable "original version" Freya (!) sounds fine with every tube from the original Russian Mystery tubes to Tung Sols and beyond...for me mostly beyond...I imagine they will fix the site to be clearer regarding whatever the stock tubes are, and it's kind of interesting and unprecedented for any manufacturer I know of to swap around tubes as much as they have...part of their charm!


----------



## malenak

I really thinks, you should give to JJ`s some time before any final judgements. I am not sure if it was because of burning or if it was just my brain psychoacoustics, but I think that my JJ sounds after 100+ hours (probably even more) better than right from the box. Its crystal clear with very well layered bass and definitely much more deep and dynamic (compared to russian NOS) and soundstage is way more expanded. I never heard the soundstage so spacious with my LCD-2C as with JJ tube. I don`t hear any harshness in highs, but I am using Lyr3 as an preamp. If I listen to Lyr3 directly, there is definitely more forwarded mids and it sounds little shouty. As an preamp to my Audio-gd C2 it is just right with huge depth and incredible dynamics. But as I said, I am waiting for Tung Sol, Electro Harmonix and Psvane 6SN7 variants. So if some of them will be better like my JJ, magic awaits me...


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## Lennym (Nov 5, 2019)

Mondo Caliente said:


> ...part of their charm!


??? Really, I don't think so.
As I wrote earlier, this is all going to be system dependent and neither @Mondo Caliente nor @malenak knows anything about my system or my music choices.  One of them seems not even to have a Freya so I don't understand the advice given about how a Freya might sound.  I have been doing this audio thing for a very, very long time and have a reasonable set of expectations re: the responsibility of a manufacturer/advertiser.
I didn't expect to make a Federal case out of this issue, so perhaps we can let it lapse.


----------



## Paladin79

Mondo Caliente said:


> I think they're simply going for what they can use that works and doesn't get sent back for microphonics or hum and is relatively inexpensive for them to buy in bulk...my now utterly collectable "original version" Freya (!) sounds fine with every tube from the original Russian Mystery tubes to Tung Sols and beyond...for me mostly beyond...I imagine they will fix the site to be clearer regarding whatever the stock tubes are, and it's kind of interesting and unprecedented for any manufacturer I know of to swap around tubes as much as they have...part of their charm!



I spoke to Jason about the tubes and he does like sq and availability of the JJ, I have both the JJ's and the Tung Sols but my go to tube are Melz 1578's in any Freya. I have owned the original and have two Freya + at this time. Using something like a Lyr 3 or even a Vali with adapter, or other single 6sn7 tube amps is a good way to pin down actual differences between tubes before going with pairs in the Freya but that is must my opinion. A pair of CBS/Hytron's 5692's in the Freya are quite nice as well IMHO. 



They are shown in this video, and there are other videos out there demoing other tubes in the Freya.


----------



## golfbravobravo

malenak said:


> I really thinks, you should give to JJ`s some time before any final judgements. I am not sure if it was because of burning or if it was just my brain psychoacoustics, but I think that my JJ sounds after 100+ hours (probably even more) better than right from the box. Its crystal clear with very well layered bass and definitely much more deep and dynamic (compared to russian NOS) and soundstage is way more expanded. I never heard the soundstage so spacious with my LCD-2C as with JJ tube. I don`t hear any harshness in highs, but I am using Lyr3 as an preamp. If I listen to Lyr3 directly, there is definitely more forwarded mids and it sounds little shouty. As an preamp to my Audio-gd C2 it is just right with huge depth and incredible dynamics. But as I said, I am waiting for Tung Sol, Electro Harmonix and Psvane 6SN7 variants. So if some of them will be better like my JJ, magic awaits me...




I just swapped JJ8s into the right side pair of the Freya+, with Tung Sols in the left side.  It's still early days, but I'm liking them so far.  They seem just a little lighter in bass than the Tung Sols.


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## Paladin79

Swapping the tubes on the right will have the greatest effect. In order to conserve the life of some of the more expensive tubes I will run all kinds of different pairs on the left and it is unusual for me to tell a difference. The Melz are just not your normal 6sn7 equivalent, there are many tubes that sound similar in blind tests to me, except for that one.


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## Lennym (Nov 7, 2019)

I find the remote and control of the volume to be a problem on the Freya+.  My last preamp also had relay switched volume so I am accustomed to the clicking.  However, it did not work through the volume control knob, so it was much quicker.  Also, the buttons on that remote were physical ones, not the deforming plastic ones.  I could actually do one click at a time then, though each click there meant more than a Schiit click.  Bottom line is that it is much harder to control the volume on the Freya+ with precision.  I was doing a lot of back and forth.  Schiit recommended that I try a Harmony learning remote, which I did.  I had an old one around.  But they also deform plastic under the button and send out a much stronger signal, so it was far worse.  Best thing so far is an old MX-500 learning remote that has clean button switches, or at least feels that way.  That's what I'm using now and with far better control than the Schiit remote.  But it's bulky, and I'll be looking for something smaller that works as well.  Any success out there with anything else?


----------



## Mondo Caliente

My Freya "Classic" has never had any remote issues and I am now going to run over there and see how many clicks I get when adjusting the level...note that I often don't hear the clicks since I generally adjust the level when listening to something...wait here...I'll be right back...OK...I easily can get one click per remote stab...one. Also when keeping the remote button depressed it doesn't click too rapidly really, which is good. Maybe things changed with the "+"...I might never know unless I buy a "+" which is unlikely. The only issue I've had that's remote related is more of a "user error" and when it happens, albeit rarely, it's kind of funny...it's when I forget that I've set the mode to one of the "non tube" settings, and then hit the tube button where the level goes way up...only a 12wpc tube amp luckily (99db Klisch Heresy III speakers) so no harm done, but I scared my lovely wife once with that...took some 'splainin'. I ordered an Aegir so diligence will be required in the future (couple weeks backordered Aegir...they said they're waiting for parts which seems like a necessary thing...gotta have parts...)


----------



## Lennym

The volume control has changed on the Freya+.  If you have a look at the interior pictures, you'll see what seems to be a motorized volume knob.  It turns when the remote is used.  Hence the slight delay and, I think, a somewhat reduced precision.  I think this worked better in the Freya "classic" and that's how it worked on my old preamp.


----------



## makarushka (Nov 9, 2019)

Lennym said:


> I find the remote and control of the volume to be a problem on the Freya+.  My last preamp also had relay switched volume so I am accustomed to the clicking.  However, it did not work through the volume control knob, so it was much quicker.  Also, the buttons on that remote were physical ones, not the deforming plastic ones.  I could actually do one click at a time then, though each click there meant more than a Schiit click.  Bottom line is that it is much harder to control the volume on the Freya+ with precision.



I had the exact same observations about the remote action on my Freya+ during the whole day of using it after it came in two days ago. Next day it malfunctioned altogether, with remote not bringing the volume up all the way -- only the physical knob on the unit. Schiit said it was the motor, so today I sent it back and am waiting for a replacement.

I also felt upon the first day of listening that I might prefer the sound of my original Freya, and that feeling is again confirmed now that I swapped it back into the system. If I tried to qualify it any further, I'd say that the quality of the upper mids and highs was on the more crystaline side, almost too clean, almost thin perhaps. This is all of course subjective but I have a pretty decent trained hearing that I make a living with, and this system is incredibly resolving of all detail. The preamp goes balanced straight into Geithain RL901K; the room is tuned and quiet.

It could also be due to the difference in tubes -- the old Freya has a mix of Tung-Sols and NOS. Also lack of break-in time. I'll see with the replacement unit but for now I am definitely not selling the old Freya until I try the same tube combos in both of them back-to-back.


----------



## skiroe

makarushka said:


> I had the exact same observations about the remote action on my Freya+ during the whole day of using it after it came in two days ago. Next day it malfunctioned altogether, with remote not bringing the volume up all the way -- only the physical knob on the unit. Schiit said it was the motor, so today I sent it back and am waiting for a replacement.
> 
> I also felt upon the first day of listening that I might prefer the sound of my original Freya, and that feeling is again confirmed now that I swapped it back into the system. If I tried to qualify it any further, I'd say that the quality of the upped mids and highs was on the more crystaline side, almost too clean, almost thing perhaps. This is all of course subjective but I have pretty decent trained hearing that I make a living with, and this system is incredibly resolving of all detail. The preamp goes balanced straight into Geithain RL901K; the room is tuned and quiet.
> 
> It could also be due to the difference in tubes -- the old Freya has a mix of Tung-Sols and NOS. Also lack of break-in time. I'll see with the replacement unit but for now I am definitely not selling the old Freya until I try the same tube combos in both of them back-to-back.



I think important details are being brought up on a number of  issues.   If Im hearing you correctly your experience is noting  sharp edges on the highs..  sorta like that digital edge glare?      I had thought I read somewhere just how the volume control is implemented as far as stepped goes. From what I gathered  its not like the type of stepped volume where there is a resistor for every 1 or 2 db worth of increment.  That would be visible under the hood for one thing.    More info on the implementation would be welcome.  Isn't there someone at Shiit that comments on here occasionally?


----------



## Lennym

I think there are a number of people who are trading in original Freyas for the Freya+ and this is the first time I have read of any difference in sound using tubes, except that the new ones are quieter.  Of course a difference in tubes can be expected to make a difference in sound.  So it will be interesting to see the result of the new Freya with the old tubes--and after break-in.

IIRC owners of the original Freyas complained that the dial position did not indicate volume level.  Schiit's answer was to motorize the volume control.  I fear this creates 3 problems.  There is a lag between the remote press and the volume change; there is less precision in obtaining the volume you want using the remote as it seems to overshoot, and; Schiit has introduced a motorized volume control that may be subject to breakdown.  It seems to me that the better, and perhaps even cheaper, way to indicate volume level would have been to have a 3 digit lcd do it.


----------



## Paladin79

Lennym said:


> I think there are a number of people who are trading in original Freyas for the Freya+ and this is the first time I have read of any difference in sound using tubes, except that the new ones are quieter.  Of course a difference in tubes can be expected to make a difference in sound.  So it will be interesting to see the result of the new Freya with the old tubes--and after break-in.
> 
> IIRC owners of the original Freyas complained that the dial position did not indicate volume level.  Schiit's answer was to motorize the volume control.  I fear this creates 3 problems.  There is a lag between the remote press and the volume change; there is less precision in obtaining the volume you want using the remote as it seems to overshoot, and; Schiit has introduced a motorized volume control that may be subject to breakdown.  It seems to me that the better, and perhaps even cheaper, way to indicate volume level would have been to have a 3 digit lcd do it.


I went from the older Freya to the +, VU meters are an easy add on and I am working on those for mine.


----------



## Mondo Caliente

Simply more info that is raising the value of my "original version and you can't have one unless you already do" Freya. If it gets any more valuable I won't be able to afford to own it anymore.


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## Paladin79 (Nov 9, 2019)

I have built things like this when I need or want VU meters:


 This is just in a test phase and I mounted the VU meters in the front panel later on (they are laying behind the openings I drilled.)  I am going to build a box with four such meters and switches so I can monitor several components in my two channel system.


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## Mondo Caliente

I use a Squeezebox Touch for background music streaming and it has a VU setting that's pretty cool. I like VU meters a lot and although I kinda don't care what they indicate (except when recording) I think there should be more of them everywhere.


----------



## Paladin79

Mondo Caliente said:


> I use a Squeezebox Touch for background music streaming and it has a VU setting that's pretty cool. I like VU meters a lot and although I kinda don't care what they indicate (except when recording) I think there should be more of them everywhere.



I use them for different purposes and I change between different amps with various headphones, I like to have an idea on signal level as I plug in.


----------



## skiroe

Lennym said:


> IIRC owners of the original Freyas complained that the dial position did not indicate volume level. Schiit's answer was to motorize the volume control. I fear this creates 3 problems. There is a lag between the remote press and the volume change; there is less precision in obtaining the volume you want using the remote as it seems to overshoot, and; Schiit has introduced a motorized volume control that may be subject to breakdown. It seems to me that the better, and perhaps even cheaper, way to indicate volume level would have been to have a 3 digit lcd do it.



Is this your experience with this volume control on the new Plus?   The delay in operation reminds me of a complaint that was pretty much under the radar concerning Adcom  GFP 750 preamp issues with volume control.  Delay in response and overshooting the desired level. Back when I was on a mission to obtain this  fabled preamp  the potential for this  issue was never mentioned and took some digging to find out about it and it took asking the seller if his 750 had this issue or not as for all the ones that became available over the couple of year span that I would be looking off and on I dont think I saw it mentioned once.  it took asking to find out.  

I am on the fence about going for the Plus and not about how good I think it will sound.  I think that is a given that sound is likely right up there way above its price point.   And possibly I can live without tape monitor in main system - I can just put tape deck in the  bedroom system ..   A less than accurate remote volume operation though can be annoying especially if I were to  replace  my current  Line 1 which has an  excellent remote volume using optical encoder as part of its operational gizmo.


----------



## Lennym

skiroe said:


> Is this your experience with this volume control on the new Plus?   The delay in operation reminds me of a complaint that was pretty much under the radar concerning Adcom  GFP 750 preamp issues with volume control.  Delay in response and overshooting the desired level. Back when I was on a mission to obtain this  fabled preamp  the potential for this  issue was never mentioned and took some digging to find out about it and it took asking the seller if his 750 had this issue or not as for all the ones that became available over the couple of year span that I would be looking off and on I dont think I saw it mentioned once.  it took asking to find out.
> 
> I am on the fence about going for the Plus and not about how good I think it will sound.  I think that is a given that sound is likely right up there way above its price point.   And possibly I can live without tape monitor in main system - I can just put tape deck in the  bedroom system ..   A less than accurate remote volume operation though can be annoying especially if I were to  replace  my current  Line 1 which has an  excellent remote volume using optical encoder as part of its operational gizmo.



Yes, of course; it is my experience and I have to assume it is everyone else's.  I think Schiit came up with a bad volume arrangement, especially as they kept using the original remote control.  That remote, as I understand it, works better on the original Freya.  And, of course, they created a moving part that might cause problems in the future as it is used a lot.  These are compromises (design/execution) in an inexpensive product.  The sound is worth it to me.

The volume overshoot is much more bothersome to me than the slight delay.  The answer seems to be to get a learning remote with spring switches rather than one, like on the Freya, that simply deforms small plastic buttons.  As I wrote above, I'm using an old remote that works much better, and will be looking for another.


----------



## skiroe

@Lennym   I think what I likely meant to say was that I wanted to hear more of an elaboration on your experience.    Ive had to go back and read previous posts to realize you were focusing on your Freya.    My  memory is as old as me --short term shot.. lol.   
I know that type of remote.   they are at the bottom of the pecking order no doubt.   Perhaps not so bad with a non step volume set up.  I would ask for clarification as dont quite get what the difference would be with original Freya --that still had motorized volume.. so wondering why the original remote would work better with that unit and not the Plus?


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## Lennym

The original Freya did _not _have a motorized volume control.  You can verify that easily with a look at its innards, pictures of which are easily found on the 'net.  If I understand correctly the remote worked directly on the switches, just like my $4500 SS preamp.  IMHO Schiit made a mistake changing to a motorized volume control on the Plus version--and with the old remote control.

Someone here suggested that Schiit monitors this thread.  Perhaps if they do they would care to comment.


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## skiroe (Nov 17, 2019)

Lennym said:


> The original Freya did _not _have a motorized volume control.  You can verify that easily with a look at its innards, pictures of which are easily found on the 'net.  If I understand correctly the remote worked directly on the switches, just like my $4500 SS preamp.  IMHO Schiit made a mistake changing to a motorized volume control on the Plus version--and with the old remote control.
> 
> Someone here suggested that Schiit monitors this thread.  Perhaps if they do they would care to comment.



thanks for clarification.   Normally I would of checked out a pic of interior online..   I think somehow in reading about the remote volume I assumed the original Freya was motorized although spending 5 minutes looking online for interior pic does not really show a good close up  pic of interior volume control.   Can see a housing attached to the volume control which I assume contains the "stepped" mechanicals and it does appear to not be motorized but not a very good pic.     Im more familiar with the bulky type      https://khozmo.com/    depending on how many steps.  I think I read somwhere on Schiit site that it is not like a typical stepped with a resistor for every step but implements somehow more of a switching function as you mention.
or another   https://goldpt.com/compare.html    these of course would be way out of line for price point of the Freya.  It does seem that going with the original Freya could be advantageous for remote volume function.

ok,  refreshed my memory --this stepped--original Freya  used thin film resistors which account for the relatively small size of the attenuator overall.    microprocessor controlled.   for the plus assume they changed it to motorized --still using the thin film method of course .  Although I am speculating and I may not be accurate re/the new version and how it is exactly set up (aside from the motor function)


----------



## skiroe

makarushka said:


> I had the exact same observations about the remote action on my Freya+ during the whole day of using it after it came in two days ago. Next day it malfunctioned altogether, with remote not bringing the volume up all the way -- only the physical knob on the unit. Schiit said it was the motor, so today I sent it back and am waiting for a replacement.
> 
> I also felt upon the first day of listening that I might prefer the sound of my original Freya, and that feeling is again confirmed now that I swapped it back into the system. If I tried to qualify it any further, I'd say that the quality of the upper mids and highs was on the more crystaline side, almost too clean, almost thin perhaps. This is all of course subjective but I have a pretty decent trained hearing that I make a living with, and this system is incredibly resolving of all detail. The preamp goes balanced straight into Geithain RL901K; the room is tuned and quiet.
> 
> It could also be due to the difference in tubes -- the old Freya has a mix of Tung-Sols and NOS. Also lack of break-in time. I'll see with the replacement unit but for now I am definitely not selling the old Freya until I try the same tube combos in both of them back-to-back.



Have you received replacement?   Very interested in hearing what the repair was and your thoughts on sound quality and what you perceived about the highs and mids.   The very nature of tubes would seem to not impart an edgy or crystaline effect on the highs.    Although anything is possible with new production tubes I suppose.


----------



## Mondo Caliente

I think so many people were whining about the remote vs. knob position differences on the original Freya that Schiit listened and implemented the new, and possibly unneeded fix. I don't see an issue with the original...and the fact that the knob has to be rolled back to wherever the remote had been set is NOT a difficult thing, and you can tell where the remote level is by listening. Not so easy for some. Man. I have another far more complicated remote controlled SS preamp with the knob showing a little indicator light rolling around...great...and it has the exact issue as what's described for the Freya +...somewhat inaccurate level adjustments...overshoot, undershoot...but meh...not a big deal, although it was replaced in my rig by the amazingly good "original" Freya...


----------



## Zer0.p0int.Zer0

Did you email Schiit customer service? I have a Freya S and it doesn’t have the issues you are describing.


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## skiroe

Mondo Caliente said:


> I think so many people were whining about the remote vs. knob position differences on the original Freya that Schiit listened and implemented the new, and possibly unneeded fix. I don't see an issue with the original...and the fact that the knob has to be rolled back to wherever the remote had been set is NOT a difficult thing, and you can tell where the remote level is by listening. Not so easy for some. Man. I have another far more complicated remote controlled SS preamp with the knob showing a little indicator light rolling around...great...and it has the exact issue as what's described for the Freya +...somewhat inaccurate level adjustments...overshoot, undershoot...but meh...not a big deal, although it was replaced in my rig by the amazingly good "original" Freya...


straight forward on why to go for the original,  thanks


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## makarushka (Nov 18, 2019)

skiroe said:


> Have you received replacement?   Very interested in hearing what the repair was and your thoughts on sound quality and what you perceived about the highs and mids.   The very nature of tubes would seem to not impart an edgy or crystaline effect on the highs.    Although anything is possible with new production tubes I suppose.



Yes, got it. Schiit support was very prompt and I had a replacement unit in two days after I placed the support email and dropped off the broken one. =

I have no idea what specifically was wrong. The new replacement unit does not exhibit the issue so far during one week of operation.

The tubes definitely make a difference, as expected, but there is something else there, as the Freya+ with the same tube complement has a subtly different sound than the old OG Freya. However, at this point that difference is not enough for _me_ to be able to say that I like the old one more; I'd maybe venture to say the Freya+ sounds a touch _cleaner_ still, and for some -- or many - it will be a better thing, but one way or another, we're talking about a VERY subtle difference in sonic signature, IMO. The noise floor with the tube stage never was an issue for me with the old one, even on circa-100dBw/1m efficient speakers, but the new one is simply amazing in that regard. For a preamp that has a tube or tubeS anywhere in the signal path, it is just shockingly quiet.

Whilte I agree about the remote control action being more accurate on the original Freya, the new volume control, as long as it works as intended, does not bother me. I can get precise enough with it; for me personally it's not an issue.

Of more importance, I think, is the astounding value that the Freya and Freya+ represent in the world of audio, across any market niches and price ranges. It is just a sublime sounding piece of gear -- in absolute terms; and for reasonable money, if not to say dirt cheap compared to the leagues it easily plays in. I've had all sorts of bespoke gear, and right now the Freya+ sits next to a rather high-end line stage that uses a single WE437a per channel, with massive filtered power supplies, tube recitification, extremely short signal path, etc. Dead quiet, too, and the very definition of transparency. Well the thing is that Freyas do lose a TOUCH in that transparency thing in comparison but not anywhere enough for me to say that they are a _lesser_ preamp in any way. Nope, only more impressed with the Freya. Hat's off to Schiit; between the Yggy and the Freyas that I own, I am a huge fan.

Now when there is a fat headphone/speaker switch on the front panel of some multibit DAC/headphone amp combo like Jotunheim 3+ or some such, I'll get that to use for my work... And will probably get an Aegir on a general principle just to see how it does against several custom SETs with my Altecs and Tannoys...


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## Mondo Caliente

I've ordered an Aegir just to compare it to my current fave, a Dennis Had SEP, and to see what "brand chemistry" exists between a Freya and an Aegir (although I actually don't care about that). I think one sure thing is the Aegir won't reveal dust just like the Freya...seriously...the most dustless components, at least in the common silver finish, I own. And screws...the "original" Freya has screws, the new one has "mystery construction"...what could that be? Adhesive? Secret clamping? Super magnets? Anybody try to pry one open yet? (that would likely void the warranty but...still....) I need to know the secret, and besides, I always open things I just bought as stuff can rattle around in shipping...I found an unsoldered important cap once in a new tube amp years ago...luckily I can solder.


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## MrTrickle (Nov 18, 2019)

Paladin79 said:


> Here is some of the best info I know of. My favorite year is 1963 on these tubes. I do not just re-flow the solder on the pins, I remove it, add liquid flux, and then a high grade of solder with some silver content. Other Russian tubes I know of, Fotons, folks were saying they sounded great after 100 hours of burn in. I doubted this, replaced the solder and after an hour or two of burn in they were quite good. Typically the Melz 1578 will bring $90 to $120 on Ebay with good reason. I know of at least two gentlemen who run four of them in the Freya with amazing results. Generally folks send me the tubes and I redo the solder just to help out.



@Paladin79, I’ve got a pair of these Melz tubes that I acquired from eBay from a seller in Ukraine this summer after acquiring the Freya+ (and probably after some of your posts in this thread). What can I say? I went on a 6SN7 binge. Anyway, they look absolutely identical to the example on the left and the photos @skiroe posted. When I put them in it was just bad popping and static, which I can only assume is due to the known issues with old solder.

I’ve got a very basic Radio Shack soldering iron and have tinkered around with it doing very minor repairs on an old Marantz receiver that’s still going strong out in the garage. But I really don’t have any skill at all. I’ve seen some posts around the web that suggest the issue can be resolved just by heating the pins up briefly to reflow the solder. Your method seems much more sound. Do you think I should attempt to reflow the solder in the pins given this?


----------



## Paladin79

MrTrickle said:


> @Paladin79, I’ve got a pair of these Melz tubes that I acquired from eBay from a seller in Ukraine this summer after acquiring the Freya+ (and probably after some of your posts in this thread). What can I say? I went on a 6SN7 binge. Anyway, they look absolutely identical to the example on the left and the photos @skiroe posted. When I put them in it was just bad popping and static, which I can only assume is due to the known issues with old solder.
> 
> I’ve got a very basic Radio Shack soldering iron and have tinkered around with it doing very minor repairs on an old Marantz receiver that’s still going strong out in the garage. But I really don’t have any skill at all. I’ve seen some posts around the web that suggest the issue can be resolved just by heating the pins up briefly to reflow the solder. Your method seems much more sound. Do you think I should attempt to reflow the solder in the pins given this?



Please do not take offense but are you absolutely certain you got the tubes aligned in the sockets properly when you plugged them in? I would double check that and try one more time but if that does not help, I would thoroughly test the tubes and re-solder the tubes for you at no charge. You can PM me if you want to take me up on this. Also if you got the 1963 version of those tubes, I may know the seller and if indeed there is an issue I would confirm this with him and I bet he would make good on a bad tube. My having tested it may give you more credence. If it is the seller I am thinking of, he even lists the tubes when they have mismatched triodes and he seems to be fairly honest.


----------



## MrTrickle

Paladin79 said:


> Please do not take offense but are you absolutely certain you got the tubes aligned in the sockets properly when you plugged them in? I would double check that and try one more time but if that does not help, I would thoroughly test the tubes and re-solder the tubes for you at no charge. You can PM me if you want to take me up on this. Also if you got the 1963 version of those tubes, I may know the seller and if indeed there is an issue I would confirm this with him and I bet he would make good on a bad tube. My having tested it may give you more credence. If it is the seller I am thinking of, he even lists the tubes when they have mismatched triodes and he seems to be fairly honest.



Thanks for the response, Paladin. No offense taken at all. It hadn’t really even occurred to me to try some basic electrical connection hygiene on the pins, which should’ve been the first order of business. If that fails, I’ll PM you. And I’ll go back and dig up the eBay history on them. I certainly appreciate the offer and your advice. Cheers!


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## brad1138 (Dec 10, 2019)

I have been using passive mode on my Freya exclusively for a few years now (I found tube mode to do little more than distort the sound). I just noticed crackling in the right channel of my system, which I tracked to the Freya. You could hear it in passive mode, but it was much louder in tube mode. I pulled the tubes and the sound went away...

It seems a bit odd failing tubes (I assume) would be audible in passive mode.

I remember reading years ago, in this thread I think, that it was OK to run the Freya w/o tubes. But then a year or so ago I read, again in this thread, that Jason said it was not ok....

Seems a waste to burn up tubes that are never used... can anyone confirm whether it is OK or not to run w/o tubes?


----------



## skiroe

brad1138 said:


> I have been using passive mode on my Freya exclusively for a few years now (I found tube mode to do little more than distort the sound). I just noticed crackling in the right channel of my system, which I tracked to the Freya. You could hear it in passive mode, but it was much louder in tube mode. I pulled the tubes and the sound went away...
> 
> It seems a bit odd failing tubes (I assume) would be audible in passive mode.
> 
> ...


----------



## brad1138

skiroe said:


> Just spoke with Gordon the other day about this --Do not run the Freya without tubes in it. Doing that can cause premature failure of the capacitors that concern the tube function. In a Freya plus apparently one can shut off the tube mode as its been designed to do that now.



Yeah, I am looking at selling it. Going to go a different direction, being as I didn't find I liked tubes...


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## nishan99

Hi 
I am not sure if the people here roll the tubes for speakers or headphones. I searched the thread and indeed some people are using it for headphones.

I listen to my power speakers (Adam A7x) and headphones equally and I want to add tubes into the chain but it would cost a lot to buy a tube preamp and a tube amp for my ZMF Verite headphones.

And I also in a dire need to a remote control for both use cases. So I am not sure if the Freya+ will add enough tube sound to the Verite through a THX amp, so if there are any experience using this preamp to a very clean headphones amp is much appreciated!.

My second option is to buy both the Freya+ and a tube headphone amp but that would cost A LOT and will occupy all my desk space.


----------



## kumar402

nishan99 said:


> Hi
> I am not sure if the people here roll the tubes for speakers or headphones. I searched the thread and indeed some people are using it for headphones.
> 
> I listen to my power speakers (Adam A7x) and headphones equally and I want to add tubes into the chain but it would cost a lot to buy a tube preamp and a tube amp for my ZMF Verite headphones.
> ...


If you only need to add a bit of tube magic to your headphone then get a tube headphone amp. Get Drop ZDT jr. from used market. It works quite well with Verite Open and it uses cheap tube. When I did A/B of ZDT Jr with THX I enjoyed the ZDT more due to better mids and bigger soundstage and touch of bloom in the mid bass.
But if you need to add tube touch to your stereo and headphone with remote then nothing is cheaper then Freya + and is a significant upgrade to Freya OG


----------



## CouryT

nishan99 said:


> Hi
> I am not sure if the Freya+ will add enough tube sound to the Verite through a THX amp, so if there are any experience using this preamp to a very clean headphones amp is much appreciated!.
> 
> My second option is to buy both the Freya+ and a tube headphone amp but that would cost A LOT and will occupy all my desk space.



I have owned a SMSL SP200 THX AAA 888 for the last 24 hours. I also own an original Freya, which I’ve had for over a year. It hadn’t even occurred to me to run the Freya in between my DAC and the SP200 until I read your post. So I decided to give it a shot. Keep in mind that I’m no headphone cultist so my knowledge is limited; I’m also still in the try-out phase for the SP200, so I can’t really offer a definitive analysis of the changes wrought by the Freya.

Quick and dirty assessment: it did sound “tubier” with the Freya. I did find it pleasing. (I listened to some 24-bit Blue Note HD Tracks via DAP.) Was it “better” with the Freya than without? That will take some extended listening to determine. What makes for pleasing distortion vs. displeasing distortion is a question I’m not confident enough to answer. However, I did think there was some loss of definition with the Freya in exchange for that added “warmth.” Is it worth it? That’s probably up to each listener’s tastes.

However, one aspect I did not like (and couldn’t figure out how to avoid) is that the volume through the Freya was greatly attenuated. Both the Freya’s and the SP200’s volume knobs were in effect: but even after carefully cranking up both units, the sound level was weak. So I had to use the S200’s high-gain mode, which would be way too loud for my headphones without the Freya. I’m using Nighthawk headphones, which are 25 ohms and very easy to drive. With your 300-ohm Verite cans, I wonder if the problem would be worse. (Or maybe I’m doing something wrong?)

I definitely enjoy the Freya in tube mode through my speakers, so I highly recommend it as a preamp. Undecided in regard to headphones thus far.

Have you considered getting a low-cost hybrid tube amp? There are scads of them.


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## nishan99

CouryT said:


> I have owned a SMSL SP200 THX AAA 888 for the last 24 hours. I also own an original Freya, which I’ve had for over a year. It hadn’t even occurred to me to run the Freya in between my DAC and the SP200 until I read your post. So I decided to give it a shot. Keep in mind that I’m no headphone cultist so my knowledge is limited; I’m also still in the try-out phase for the SP200, so I can’t really offer a definitive analysis of the changes wrought by the Freya.
> 
> Quick and dirty assessment: it did sound “tubier” with the Freya. I did find it pleasing. (I listened to some 24-bit Blue Note HD Tracks via DAP.) Was it “better” with the Freya than without? That will take some extended listening to determine. What makes for pleasing distortion vs. displeasing distortion is a question I’m not confident enough to answer. However, I did think there was some loss of definition with the Freya in exchange for that added “warmth.” Is it worth it? That’s probably up to each listener’s tastes.
> 
> ...



Thanks a lot man!, I really appreciate taking the time to test that out. 

But you're doing it wrong tho, you need to max the gain and max the volume knob on your THX amp and then control the volume via the Freya. Using two volume controls contributes to losing transparency and definition as you described.


----------



## kumar402

nishan99 said:


> Thanks a lot man!, I really appreciate taking the time to test that out.
> 
> But you're doing it wrong tho, you need to max the gain and max the volume knob on your THX amp and then control the volume via the Freya. Using two volume controls contributes to losing transparency and definition as you described.


I don't think you need to max out amp but put it in its Unity gain. For Drop ZDT Jr its around 1' Clock on dial. You can reach out to your amplifier manufacturer  to get rough estimate on the volume knob For unity gain


----------



## Heady Games

I have a HDV820 and a pair of HD800s.  Looking to add some tubes and extra bonus of being able to run my Klipsch RP600Ms.

Would a Freya+ and a Ragnarok be everything I need?  Is there something else that would be a better setup?  I really like the reviews of the Zana Deux as well...  I would be listening to Tidal, and my AT-LP7.


----------



## golgi

I've read about the first 60 or so pages of this thread to determine what might be the best tubes to get for my Freya +.  I got it a few weeks ago and am liking the sound overall. It seems that either the GE 6SN7GTB or RCA 5692's would be ideal upgrades from stock JJ tubes. I have still have more reading to do in the newer pages of this thread but is that still the summary of the best upgrade tubes?


----------



## golgi

Well, I ordered NOS matched quad GE 6SN7GTB tubes and received them today.  They're a little smaller than the stock JJ tubes but wow do they improve the sound.  There is definitely more clarity, dynamics, and because of the clarity, you can hear into the soundstage better.  A great improvement for sure!


----------



## Lennym

Earlier I wrote complaining of the difficulty of adjusting volume on the Freya+ with the motorized volume control.  The supplied membrane remote only makes the situation worse.  This cheap learning remote helps me.  Not perfect but better than the membrane device.  As little as $2.69 on ebay.


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## Dueprocess

I recently moved from Freya (1) to Freya+.

Freya (1) is fetching a fair amount on the secondhand market right now (assuming it's in good condition, obviously), so the upgrade cost wasn't too tough to swallow.

On the whole, I think Freya+ is a worthwhile upgrade. The sound is definitely different; it's cleaner, quieter, a little more relaxed.

The changes in how the remote interacts with the volume took some getting used to. It's not as precise as with the original, as one press on the remote yields 2-3 ticks. On one hand, it's more difficult to be as precise as you could be with the original, but on the other hand, it's much easier to obtain larger swings in volume when desired. I wouldn't let this scare you away.

I do have a question, though. The motorized pot is audible (not through speakers). Is this normal? With volume low, can anyone else hear the motor when adjusting volume via remote?


----------



## tlainhart

Dueprocess said:


> I recently moved from Freya (1) to Freya+.
> 
> On the whole, I think Freya+ is a worthwhile upgrade. The sound is definitely different; it's cleaner, quieter, a little more relaxed.



Thanks for posting. I like my Freya OG, and have been toying with the idea of upgrading to get the differential SS mode.  Are you running the same tubes in Freya+ as you were in Freya(1)?


----------



## Dueprocess

tlainhart said:


> Thanks for posting. I like my Freya OG, and have been toying with the idea of upgrading to get the differential SS mode.  Are you running the same tubes in Freya+ as you were in Freya(1)?



Yes, still running the Tung Sols from my first Freya. Looking to upgrade them soon... in fact that's the biggest reason I grabbed the +; I didn't want to burn expensive tubes while using the JFET buffer.


----------



## Zanshin09

Question (semi-tube-rolling related) for Freya owners: I have a first-gen Freya, purchased new about a year ago. I got it with the cheaper NOS Russian tubes, expecting to eventually upgrade to better ones.

Which I recently did. I first tried a set of new Tung-Sol 6sn7s. After installing these, I notice that tapping on the top of the chassis with my finger produces a very audible sound from the speakers. Not a ringing noise, but more of a distorted cough-like thump, like the chassis noise is amplified beyond clipping. It's not crazy loud but definitely loud, and it is the same volume regardless of volume knob position, or if Mute is on or off. (Only in Tube mode though.)

I figured, great, I have a super-microphonic tube, but swapping them around never changed the noise. Neither did swapping to a set of Sylvania 6sn7s. I never noticed this with the NOS Russians, but I put them back in and the noise is there but a bit quieter.

Also, with the 6sn7s, there is sometimes an audible hum (not a hiss but a hum), but it's not always present. I don't recall ever hearing this with the Russian tubes.

Music sounds normal, as far as I can tell. It still functions properly.

I created a support issue with Schiit, but has anyone noticed this? What happens when you give the top of the chassis a light-to-moderate thump with your finger?


----------



## Mondo Caliente

My "original series" Freya bought a couple of years ago sounds amazing and I really have no incentive to get the new version although it does seem like a well regarded upgrade. Since mine has had no issues other than the LEDs being too bright (a relatively difficult fix I documented elsewhere...very fiddly putting the thing back together with the LEDs poking into the proper holes) I'm simply happy tube rolling away...NOS GEs are my current fave. I just got up and thumped on the thing per the above post and there is no audible response to that (whew...). Also the audible mechanical volume clicks have been fairly well documented, and to me simply indicate that the relay system is working...doesn't bother me at all. I do like hearing that my version of the Freya has more accurate remote adjustments as I use that frequently and like the tiny increments I can get. Lucky me.


----------



## Dueprocess

Zanshin09 said:


> Question (semi-tube-rolling related) for Freya owners: I have a first-gen Freya, purchased new about a year ago. I got it with the cheaper NOS Russian tubes, expecting to eventually upgrade to better ones.
> 
> Which I recently did. I first tried a set of new Tung-Sol 6sn7s. After installing these, I notice that tapping on the top of the chassis with my finger produces a very audible sound from the speakers. Not a ringing noise, but more of a distorted cough-like thump, like the chassis noise is amplified beyond clipping. It's not crazy loud but definitely loud, and it is the same volume regardless of volume knob position, or if Mute is on or off. (Only in Tube mode though.)
> 
> ...


This is microphonics, I believe. This exact scenario is described in a review of Freya+ (John Darko?). All tubes are microphonic to a certain extent. Considering that and reports of similar behavior with Freya, I would imagine the tubes are picking up the vibrations. (This is why the symptoms do not present using the JFET buffer.)

I cannot recreate this currently (Freya+), but experienced it with my original Freya. I should note that I am currently running tube dampers (from Herbie's), and these may be suppressing the vibrations that you are hearing. Might be worth a shot to try - just make sure you check the spec sheet for your tubes and get the right size if you go that route, as 6SN7s vary in size. I think I paid ~$50-60 total for four. (Overpriced? Sure. Too expensive? No -- I'm happy with them.)


----------



## Zanshin09

Thanks for pointing out the Darko review, I guess I'd never watched it all the way through. But yeah, mine sounds similar to that when I tap on the top. It makes me nervous that some people experience it and others don't. I will likely try some tube dampers, but there's no way they could get rid of all of the microphonics I'm hearing.

Of all the Schiit gear I've owned, this is the first item I've been iffy about. I don't mind the volume relay clicks, but it does bug me that I have to turn it up to nearly 50% to get to a low listening level. The whole first half of the volume throw is basically useless in my system. When I use my Jotunheim as the preamp in my system, it is LOUD at 15%. I know it's a different sort of beast, but it still makes me worry that there's something wrong with my Freya.


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## Mondo Caliente (Mar 13, 2020)

I've rarely had issues with tube microphony over decades of tube amp usage...mostly guitar amps...and luckily zero issues with my Freya so no dampers for me! The Freya (at least my original version) has plenty of gain into my little SEP amp, but maybe less than other preamps like my retired (and amazing sounding dual mono balanced blah blah) Kavent S-33 which had a 10 db gain boost I used all the time. That said, preamps can sound better when in their "50%" gain mode (I read that someplace), and note that with many modern preamps the higher preamp gain, even nearly maxed, doesn't necessarily introduce distortion...the non tube modes can still drive my little 12wpc power amp to relatively loud levels, and they make the tube gain seem aggressive...amp input sensitivity varies it seems, and yours might be less sensitive somehow. Or your Freya is BAD BAD BAD...and needs warranty attention.


----------



## Dueprocess

Zanshin09 said:


> Thanks for pointing out the Darko review, I guess I'd never watched it all the way through. But yeah, mine sounds similar to that when I tap on the top. It makes me nervous that some people experience it and others don't. I will likely try some tube dampers, but there's no way they could get rid of all of the microphonics I'm hearing.
> 
> Of all the Schiit gear I've owned, this is the first item I've been iffy about. I don't mind the volume relay clicks, but it does bug me that I have to turn it up to nearly 50% to get to a low listening level. The whole first half of the volume throw is basically useless in my system. When I use my Jotunheim as the preamp in my system, it is LOUD at 15%. I know it's a different sort of beast, but it still makes me worry that there's something wrong with my Freya.


I wouldn't worry about the volume knob position (personally, if my listening level was loud at 15% I'd find that problematic; the greater useable range, the better) -- I don't think that's a real issue, more so just the result of gain combinations of pre / power amps, power amp wattage, and speaker sensitivity. That being said, if you don't like it, by all means, find a preamp with volume ratios, etc. that don't bother you. It is your end-user experience that matters above all, after all.
I certainly understand being bothered by the microphonics. I'm going to guess Freya doesn't necessarily isolate the case elements and tube sockets sufficiently to prevent this in every situation or from unit to unit. That's just a guess. It never bothered me on my original, because I never tapped it while listening, but I certainly understand why it bothers you, and I wouldn't blame you for being anxious about it at all.
Just my 2 cents!


----------



## Randolf711

I’m curious how you’re still liking those tubes? I am contacting Tube world and seeing what other recommendations he has. Last time he set me up with some amazing tubes and they were jaw dropping (I wasn’t really a believer in tube magic until then).

I will post my decision and let you all know! I have the Freya + full balanced with a Yggy and mono-amp Vidars. As of now I can tell you my system absolutely kills but I’m really excited to hear it with some very nice tubes. 



tlainhart said:


> Thanks for posting. I like my Freya OG, and have been toying with the idea of upgrading to get the differential SS mode.  Are you running the same tubes in Freya+ as you were in Freya(1)?


----------



## Dueprocess (Mar 20, 2020)

Randolf711 said:


> I’m curious how you’re still liking those tubes? I am contacting Tube world and seeing what other recommendations he has. Last time he set me up with some amazing tubes and they were jaw dropping (I wasn’t really a believer in tube magic until then).
> 
> I will post my decision and let you all know! I have the Freya + full balanced with a Yggy and mono-amp Vidars. As of now I can tell you my system absolutely kills but I’m really excited to hear it with some very nice tubes.


They're the only tubes I've ever used, so... yeah.

I think they're alright. Certainly, relative to the JFET stage, they offer a more three-dimensional soundstage, and they are a little less bright; they're also smoother. (More... "liquid"? That's the word that first came to mind when I originally heard and attempted to describe them, and I still go to it -- although I'm not sure that translates well for everyone else.) But, I feel they're kind of noisy, and I'd like a little more detail.

I find they work very well with recordings that feature some level of background noise (like analog recordings, or acoustic, jazz, etc.) or when I'm listening to vinyl and there's that touch of surface noise. But, when I listen to electronic music or anything digitally mastered that has completely silent backgrounds behind vocal samples, etc., it becomes very clear to me that they are a little muddy and don't have the level of clarity I'm looking for. I think the background noise in the recordings masks the lack of clarity in the Tung Sols.

I'd like to try some RCA 5692s, but I haven't pulled the trigger.


----------



## Randolf711

Thanks for the reply! I’m a huge fan of Tube world and he’s recommending 
Sylvania *6SN7GTB*
It’s quad matched for $200. I may just go with those. But I really have to admit, the stock tubes are pretty darn good. I have a newer Freya. 



Dueprocess said:


> They're the only tubes I've ever used, so... yeah.
> 
> I think they're alright. Certainly, relative to the JFET stage, they offer a more three-dimensional soundstage, and they are a little less bright; they're also smoother. (More... "liquid"? That's the word that first came to mind when I originally heard and attempted to describe them, and I still go to it -- although I'm not sure that translates well for everyone else.) But, I feel they're kind of noisy, and I'd like a little more detail.
> 
> ...


----------



## Dueprocess

Randolf711 said:


> Thanks for the reply! I’m a huge fan of Tube world and he’s recommending
> Sylvania *6SN7GTB*
> It’s quad matched for $200. I may just go with those. But I really have to admit, the stock tubes are pretty darn good. I have a newer Freya.


Those seem to be well regarded.
Check out the following if you haven't already:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-reference-6sn7-thread.117677/


----------



## Randolf711

I went ahead and purchased those Sylvania’s and I’ll report back what I hear!



Dueprocess said:


> Those seem to be well regarded.
> Check out the following if you haven't already:
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-reference-6sn7-thread.117677/


----------



## Randolf711

I wanted to say I’ve had the Sylvania’s for the past two weeks and have been very pleased with the sound! First, I should say the tubes Schiit gives with the Freya are very good. The sound quality isn’t dramatically altered by the Sylvania’s. However, the best part of these Tubes are how they increase the enjoyment of listening. The Sylvania’s make listening easier on your ears. They give you a beautiful reproduction of overtones and a natural tone quality. If you want to color your DAC for a “warmer” sound, this is the way to go. I don’t believe in the warmer crap as much as it just sounds more natural or authentic.

It is my feeling that this Preamp, the Freya +, is a brilliant piece of equipment. The solid state section sounds amazing and the Tube section is superb. If you want to save a ton of money and avoid the hassle of records, pairing the Freya with a nice DAC should make you very happy. I haven’t heard a ton of DACs but I settled on the Yggdrasil. Somehow I wound up with a Schiit system but that’s mostly because of tons of reading and excellent reviews. Plus it doesn’t hurt that Schiit is only an hour drive for me if I ever need a repair. My Freya and Yggy are my two favorite audio purchases.


----------



## thomaskong78

I had pulled the trigger for Schitt Freya and Nos quad Sylvania 6sn7 GTB made in 1955.

I hope it will give relaxed tube flavor to both Sr1a driven by Jot R and 009s driven by Kgsshv Carbon amp.

Although I enjoy open and exciting sound out of Sr1a but it get close to hot from time to time.

I wish to tame it with Freya.

But Freya is backordered so that I may get it on next Thursday or later.

I also have quad Sylvania vt231 made in 1940's but two of them are in my 2 channel amplifier and I keep one more pair as spare



I had chosen Sylvania vt231 in Line Magnetic 508 amp after comparing with Nos Kenrad, Amperex made in Canada and modern Shuguang Treasure cv181-z.

Shuguang Treasure sounds warm and organic but falls slightly short of vt231 in details.


Sylvania "Bad boy" made in 1952 are hard to get with exorbitant price which I had not tried in my system.

But I am happy with Sylvania vt231 which give excellent details, nice dynamics, wide and deep soundstage. 

With possibility of using different tubes on gain and buffer stage, there are too many combinations to try out.


 I will start out using quad Sylvania GTB made in 1955.


----------



## thomaskong78

I received Freya+ this morning



I skipped JJ stock tubes and inserted Nos Amperex 6sn7gtb in gain stage and Sylvania 6sn7gtb in buffer stage.



After running demagnetization tracks twice( 6min each) on Freya and Jot R, I started listening to Capricio Italian (Tchaikovsky) directed by Bernstein.



Wow, Freya with Jot R sounds much better than Jot R only with more relaxed and nuanced details but with minimal loss of transparency



While it sounds slightly thin with Jot R only.



Old Jazz recording by Benny Goodman sounds more relaxed with less hot edge from Freya and Jot R.



My digital source is Dave and HMS.



I use 20ft Purist Audio Design balanced cable between Dave and Freya and 6ft Synergistic Research balanced cable between Freya and Jot R.



I still have several choice of tube rolling with Sylvania vt231, RCA gray glass 6sn7gt and all quad Syl 6sn7 gtb.



Audio depends on personal preference, but Freya fitted with Nos tubes and Jot R sounds much more musical to my ears than Jot R only with overall nuanced presentation.



Although I had enjoyed fast and exciting sound out of Sr1a driven by Jot R for the last three months, I keep going back to 009s driven by Kgsshv Carbon amp to get more relaxed sound.



With Freya and Jot R, Sr1a move halfway between Jot R only and 009s with relaxed presentation.



I will also apply Freya to Kgsshv Carbon amp later today to find its effect on sound of 009s.

Out of curiosity, I am driving HD 800s out of Rca output of Freya using "Hosa TPR-257" adapter bought from Amazon.


Wow, Freya+ is also a killer amp for HD 800s.



I had driven HD 800s by headphone output of Dave and HMS.



It sounds transparent but with one note bass.





But with Freya in the chain after Dave, HD 800s sounds almost perfect with nice soundstage, clean details and full and textured bass.


----------



## Dan Lee

Hey guys I jus purchased a Freya and am lookin to get some good Tubes to run in it.  If anyone is trying to sell some please do let me know.

Thanks


----------



## Dueprocess (Apr 27, 2020)

Dan Lee said:


> Hey guys I jus purchased a Freya and am lookin to get some good Tubes to run in it.  If anyone is trying to sell some please do let me know.
> 
> Thanks



I got a set of four RCA 6SN7 GTBs (~'56 - '60) from Andy at Vintage Tube Services for a very reasonable price, and I'm happy with the results.

He has a stock list w. pricing on his website. It's worth checking out.


----------



## Dan Lee

Dueprocess said:


> I got a set of four RCA 6SN7 GTBs (~'56 - '60) from Andy at Vintage Tube Services for a very reasonable price, and I'm happy with the results.
> 
> He has a stock list w. pricing on his website. It's worth checking out.


Dont know how I missed this, but I appreciate the response.  I got a couple pairs from brent jesse at audiotubes.com and they have been quite enjoyable thus far.  RCA and Sylvania but can't remember the exact ones.  I will add that info later when Im home.  

The JJ tubes were not very enjoyable but certainly better than other new production tubes I've heard in the past.  These made the highs rather harsh.  The new/ old tubes don't have that harsh top end and are more holographic with better detail and separation.  Every time I own a tube amp of any kind I end up spending tons on tubes to try and find the perfect sound.  This time is... exactly the same as I now want to purchase more and more options haha.  

I read a few posts back that the Freya sounded better with the same tubes in all 4 rather than two differing pairs in the 4.  Has anyone else found this to be the case?


----------



## thomaskong78

Update on the tube rolling for Schitt Freya.

Sylvania vt231 in gain stage and RCA gray bottle in buffer stage give ideal combination of details speed and wide and deep soundstage but without hot edges.

Freya fitted with above Nos tubes and Kgsshv Carbon drive 009s with sublime air, fast speed and textured bass. 

Freya + and Rogue Cronus Magnum II makes Raal sr1a  sing without aggressiveness.

You do not need to use same quad tube in Freya.


----------



## Dan Lee

Calling all you tube gurus out there.  I could really use an answer to this question.  I have a pair of unbelievably beautiful sounding 6N3 tubes and thought it could be forever before I got to hear them again.  Browsing Ebay I came across this and simply don't know enough to know if it would be okay to run in my Freya.



Anyone know if it would be ok to run these safely?

Thanks for the help guys


----------



## KoshNaranek

Dan Lee said:


> Calling all you tube gurus out there.  I could really use an answer to this question.  I have a pair of unbelievably beautiful sounding 6N3 tubes and thought it could be forever before I got to hear them again.  Browsing Ebay I came across this and simply don't know enough to know if it would be okay to run in my Freya.
> Anyone know if it would be ok to run these safely?
> 
> Thanks for the help guys


Freya plate voltage is the problem. She runs at 300 volts. Noval tubes will have a high chance of arcing. This is really bad. You may be able to get away with it on Saga, which runs 200 volts.


----------



## acguitar84

Does anyone have any comparisons of the older Freya to the newer one? Right now I'm listening my speaker system of, Original Freya - AES Lynx Card fed Yggdrasil A2 - to the speakers, and it sounds fantastic. But as you know in this hobby....always searching around.


----------



## Dueprocess

acguitar84 said:


> Does anyone have any comparisons of the older Freya to the newer one? Right now I'm listening my speaker system of, Original Freya - AES Lynx Card fed Yggdrasil A2 - to the speakers, and it sounds fantastic. But as you know in this hobby....always searching around.



copying my post here - hope it's helpful:




Dueprocess said:


> I recently moved from Freya (1) to Freya+.
> 
> Freya (1) is fetching a fair amount on the secondhand market right now (assuming it's in good condition, obviously), so the upgrade cost wasn't too tough to swallow.
> 
> ...


----------



## Dan Lee

So I got a question for my fellow Freya owners.  I've been using the Freya for a couple months now and have switched out a few tubes and am finding it rather hard to tell much difference in the overall addition it makes to the sound.  I've owned other tube amps and preamps in the past that made more of a drastic and noticeable difference in overall tonality and soundstage and other enjoyable things.  

I guess my question would be are their any tubes you are aware of that will make a more noticable difference?  In the past I've used some more expensive tubes and found the sound to be much more magical.  Is it worth it to spend a $200 to $300 on a pair of red base or raytheon vt231's?

Thanks for any words of advice.


----------



## Dueprocess (Jun 8, 2020)

Dan Lee said:


> So I got a question for my fellow Freya owners.  I've been using the Freya for a couple months now and have switched out a few tubes and am finding it rather hard to tell much difference in the overall addition it makes to the sound.  I've owned other tube amps and preamps in the past that made more of a drastic and noticeable difference in overall tonality and soundstage and other enjoyable things.
> 
> I guess my question would be are their any tubes you are aware of that will make a more noticable difference?  In the past I've used some more expensive tubes and found the sound to be much more magical.  Is it worth it to spend a $200 to $300 on a pair of red base or raytheon vt231's?
> 
> Thanks for any words of advice.


I originally used the Tung-Sols that came w. my Freya for about a year, and then I picked up some RCA GTBs ('56-'60).
I noticed a big difference, and I much prefer the RCAs. The Tung-Sols MAY have been a bit quieter (i.e. measured noise at tweeter w. no source), but the RCAs are clearer and seem to color the sound less. The Tung-Sols also seemed to have more bloom.

I find the RCAs bring all the soundstage benefits of the Tung-Sols without much of the distortion. If you're looking for a recognizable "tubey" sound, maybe the Tung-Sols are the way to go... they stick out and draw more attention to themselves, whereas the RCAs are more subtle; they sound similar to the JFET stage -- certainly a bit warmer, but they bring better imaging (at the cost of slight noise, which while audible at tweeter, usually isn't at the listening position).


----------



## KoshNaranek

Dan Lee said:


> So I got a question for my fellow Freya owners.  I've been using the Freya for a couple months now and have switched out a few tubes and am finding it rather hard to tell much difference in the overall addition it makes to the sound.  I've owned other tube amps and preamps in the past that made more of a drastic and noticeable difference in overall tonality and soundstage and other enjoyable things.
> 
> I guess my question would be are their any tubes you are aware of that will make a more noticable difference?  In the past I've used some more expensive tubes and found the sound to be much more magical.  Is it worth it to spend a $200 to $300 on a pair of red base or raytheon vt231's?
> 
> Thanks for any words of advice.


I personally cannot tell the difference between Red base and standard base RCA tubes. When those tubes were made, the difference in spec was shock resistance. They were placed in Army Artillery from the 50's to make up part of the fire control computer(analog computer). I though Raytheon VT231 were fantastic for imaging until I realized that the lacked bass and were not good for Rock. I prefer standard RCAs at this point. have not found my perfect tube and I am wondering I should just get a Freya S as the standard Freya is a bit of a fussbudget.


----------



## Zurv (Jun 17, 2020)

Randolf711 said:


> Thanks for the reply! I’m a huge fan of Tube world and he’s recommending
> Sylvania *6SN7GTB*
> It’s quad matched for $200. I may just go with those. But I really have to admit, the stock tubes are pretty darn good. I have a newer Freya.



I got them from tube world (express)


> *(!!!!!) (Best 6SN7GTB Quad) 6SN7GTB Sylvania NOS 1970 era same date codes original boxes - 6SN7GTB Sylvania NOS matched quad × 1*





and i like them.. and i dislike them 
They bring the bass, but too much of it (sometimes very harsh bass, but not boomy.) The base is moved so far forward that it over takes everything else.  This was a deal breaker for me. Yes, on some content it totally worked, but others it killed. For example, James Taylor's Fire and Raid (2019 remaster) the bass (instrument) takes over. Everything else is in the background, including Mr Taylor.  They do work well when for a source that has equally warm content - say something from Nona Jones - the balance of the song isn't changed and it just sounds great.
For me, i change music around a lot, and changing tubes on the fly is a pain in the butt - so these aren't for me....
... well.. in all 4 tubes 
I do still use them, but on the left side. The right side (gain, which has the biggest impact) i use the Zalytron (CBS  - Hytron 5692) and i really like them. Those are the ones i like the best in my small collection of 6SN7 tubes.
Mixed with the Elac AMT (JET5) the highs are amazing. The mid are silky. hrmm.. yummy  . Great sound stage. I'm sure there are better tubes, but i'm happy now with what i have. Yes, the bass is there too (not boomy ... you bass crazy people.
(have Bad Guy by Billie Eilish playing now)


My order (for my limited tube library)
1. CBS - Hytron 5692 (with Sylvania in buffer stage)
2 Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB
3. Sylvania 1970 era 6SN7GTB (These are better than the Tung-Sol expect when it isn't   - ie, the bass can sometimes be fatiguing and harsh for some content)
4 JJ 6SN7 (stock) - it is fine 

My personal tube nightmare is with the 6922s for the schiit mj2. ugh. i have so many tubes i don't like. That said, i think the problem might not be the tubes, but the god damn bright HD800s...  At some point my logic was it was cheaper to get tubes to fix the problem, but i think i spend almost the cost of the hd800s on tubes. (Which is still cheaper than finding a new headphone, which i'll look at after this fall's release of nvidia cards.)

My loop:
PC Qobuz -> usb -> Schiit Yggdrasil (A2/Unison) -> XLR -> Freya+ -> XLR -> Vidar monoblocks -> Elac BS 403.2

remember, the whole loop matters. What sounds good on my system might not work for yours. (FYI i really love my Elac BS 403 for near field - if someone is looking for suggestions for bookshelf speakers.)
Maybe if 6SN7 tubes worked on my mj2 the sylvania's bass monsters might sound great battling the bright HD880s - but they can before a problem for my desktop near field speaker setup.


----------



## thomaskong78 (Jun 17, 2020)

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/shootout-of-nos-6sn7-tubes.932083/page-2

I had done shootout of 6sn7 tubes in LIne Magnetic 508.

Also I have Freya in my headphone system.

I had tried several combinations of 6sn7 in Freya.

So far I am happy with Kenrad vt231 at gain stage and Sylvania vt231 at buffer stage to drive Kgsshv Carbon amp for Stax 009s and Jot R for Raal sr1a.

it sounds natural with excellent details.


----------



## Dan Lee

KoshNaranek said:


> I personally cannot tell the difference between Red base and standard base RCA tubes. When those tubes were made, the difference in spec was shock resistance. They were placed in Army Artillery from the 50's to make up part of the fire control computer(analog computer). I though Raytheon VT231 were fantastic for imaging until I realized that the lacked bass and were not good for Rock. I prefer standard RCAs at this point. have not found my perfect tube and I am wondering I should just get a Freya S as the standard Freya is a bit of a fussbudget.


Thanks for your response.  I always enjoyed the Raytheon VT231's when I had the WA22.  I just ordered a matched pair of Ken Rad VT231's and another pair of the Raytheon VT231's.  I'm hoping the bass the Ken Rads are known for will have a nice synergy with the Raytheon's, but we shall see.  If that doesn't work out as well as I like I me letting the Freya go to save a bit of money till I find reemployment.


----------



## Zurv

thomaskong78 said:


> Also I have Freya in my headphone system.



What headphone AMP are you using? no pre- in it? XLR?


----------



## Ram18

Hi All

Am new to this forum. Never knew there were so many Schiit enthusiasts here.  I should have joined earlier. I wish to upgrade my audio experience with the Schiit Freya + preamp and am hoping to get your views. 

I have gotten a node 2i. I tried connecting my node 2i via my Onkyo RZ 830 to my Class D XTZ A2 -300 power amp and then did a comparison with a direct connection with just the node 2i directly connected to the XTZ power amp without the Onkyo. Am using normal RCA cables, nothing fancy.

The node 2i connected to the XTZ was much better. I used my node 2i to control the vol. It was a night and day difference. The vocals were much more clearer, very alive, great bass ( and this is without my two subs  the bass was really loud so I had to turn the gain on my XTZ down a little. The openness, transparency and width of soundstage was also much more revealing as compared to routing the node 2i via my onkyo. Was really impressed with the bass though. Music is pretty good now.

Now am thinking of adding the Schiit Freya + preamp as the final upgrade. Am hoping to get some musical refinement next with my audio set up.  I have never owned tubes. All my amps are solid state. But now am intrigued by tubes esp the lush airy feel it gives. Hoping the Freya + can give me this feel.

 Would like to seek your views if the sound signature would be even better if I run the node 2i to the Schiit Freya + preamp connected to my power amp; as compared to running node 2i direct to the power amp as I have it now. Anyone has tried the node 2i with the Schiit Freya + to share their experience? This would really help my consideration in my purchase of the Freya +. I am deciding more on the Freya + as opposed to the Saga + as the tube mode seems to be better in the Freya + vs Saga + as per some of the reviews I have researched on.

I will possibly use the Schiit SYS to switch between music via node 2i and Freya + and movies with the Onkyo.

I currently have my Klipsch 6000f fronts a matching centre and Marantz UD 70007 CD /SACD/Blueray player and two 10 inched subs along with Jamo surrounds and front height speakers.

Will also be using my Marantz to connect to the Schiit Freya as well . So planning to run music without subs and HT via Onkyo and use the Schiit SYS as a switch between both.

As am unable to audition to the Schiit Freya + here;  I am reliant on my research and opinions.

Really appreciate your thoughts. It would be very helpful.


----------



## Dueprocess

Ram18 said:


> Hi All
> 
> Am new to this forum. Never knew there were so many Schiit enthusiasts here.  I should have joined earlier. I wish to upgrade my audio experience with the Schiit Freya + preamp and am hoping to get your views.
> 
> ...



If you're going to run single ended (RCA) over balanced, you may want to go the Saga route, in the interest of $. Saga, obviously, is cheaper, and it also doesn't require 4 tubes like Freya, so tube rolling is less expensive, assuming you want to experiment.

When it comes to whether or not Freya / Saga might improve the sound...Some prefer adjusting volume in the analog domain as opposed to in the digital domain (myself included), and if that's your preference, I'd say, yes, Freya / Saga will make an improvement. In addition, if you want to try tubes, again, a vote for Freya / Saga.

As far as arguments against the aforementioned preamps... (if adjusting volume in the digital domain is okay with you) less is typically more when it comes to the signal path.


----------



## Ram18

Hi Dueprocess

Tks for the useful insights. I have considered the Saga as am only using RCA  and as you rightly pointed out, its more cost effective and less expenses with tube roll. It also has some good reviews. The only thing I gathered was the Saga in terms of tube effect may not be as good as the Freya +.  Thats my concern, as I do wish  for good tube sound without losing openness, clarity and details as well as soundstage.  The 3 modes (Tube , JFET and Passive)  in Freya + also comes handy.  Thats why I have Freya + in my mind. Though the Saga option cost wise is a draw. 

Pardon my ignorance. May I check what do you mean by using analogue dimensions. You mean not using an optical cable and just use analogue RCA connectors?  I idont intend to use optical. I prefer analogue RCA  options in terms of connections . My power amp does not have balanced XLR options hence cant use the Freya + balanced connections at least for now.

So you gather analogue (RCA)  wise  the Saga and Freya + serving as  a preamp to node 2i to my power amp would yield it to be more musical than node 2i direct to my power amp now? Point taken that optical wise may be neater not to have an additional preamp in the chain.

Appreciate your views


----------



## Dueprocess (Jun 18, 2020)

Ram18 said:


> Hi Dueprocess
> 
> Tks for the useful insights. I have considered the Saga as am only using RCA  and as you rightly pointed out, its more cost effective and less expenses with tube roll. It also has some good reviews. The only thing I gathered was the Saga in terms of tube effect may not be as good as the Freya +.  Thats my concern, as I do wish  for good tube sound without losing openness, clarity and details as well as soundstage.  The 3 modes (Tube , JFET and Passive)  in Freya + also comes handy.  Thats why I have Freya + in my mind. Though the Saga option cost wise is a draw.
> 
> ...




Freya and Saga are only preamps (no DAC). As such, they only carry analog signals. They control volume by attenuating the analog signal. When I referred to "digital" and "analog" domain, my reference was volume control. From your description, it sounds as if you are using the Node as a DAC, in which case all connections post-Node would be analog, be they RCA, XLR, TRS, etc. (Alternatively, you could purchase a separate DAC and run Node > optical > DAC > Saga / Freya, but it didn't sound like that was your plan.)

I am not certain whether the Node 2i handles volume control digitally or via analog.

Many, myself included, prefer to control volume in the analog domain -- i.e. like Freya / Saga -- via attenuation of the analog signal. Others prefer to control volume in the digital domain (before the signal is converted to an analog wave). There are pros and cons to each approach.

If the Node controls volume in the analog domain, you are likely better off using Saga / Freya to control volume (and leaving the Node at max), as they use a rather sophisticated stepped attenuation system -- one of the perks of these preamps. Assuming the Node uses analog volume control, its implementation is likely (I don't know for sure) inferior.

If the Node controls volume in the digital domain, whether you want to add a piece to the chain to control volume using an analog implementation is up to you. Some would say you should, others would argue against it. It's worth looking into if you are curious. As i said before, both solutions are imperfect and have their pros and cons.

All that being said, if you want to listen to tubes... go for Saga / Freya regardless. And, if cost is not a factor, take Freya for the potential to run balanced.


----------



## KoshNaranek

Ram18 said:


> Hi Dueprocess
> 
> Tks for the useful insights. I have considered the Saga as am only using RCA  and as you rightly pointed out, its more cost effective and less expenses with tube roll. It also has some good reviews. The only thing I gathered was the Saga in terms of tube effect may not be as good as the Freya +.  Thats my concern, as I do wish  for good tube sound without losing openness, clarity and details as well as soundstage.  The 3 modes (Tube , JFET and Passive)  in Freya + also comes handy.  Thats why I have Freya + in my mind. Though the Saga option cost wise is a draw.
> 
> ...


I have Saga and Freya in their Original Generation form. I actually PREFER Saga to Freya. It has a lower noise floor, which is heard best in the upper frequencies to me. The single tube makes it easier to deal with. My favorite tube is an early 70s Hitachi. Just TRY and find a matching quad of those. 

I would replace Freya with another Saga except I like running Twin Vidar amps in my big room.


----------



## Dueprocess

KoshNaranek said:


> I have Saga and Freya in their Original Generation form. I actually PREFER Saga to Freya. It has a lower noise floor, which is heard best in the upper frequencies to me. The single tube makes it easier to deal with. My favorite tube is an early 70s Hitachi. Just TRY and find a matching quad of those.
> 
> I would replace Freya with another Saga except I like running Twin Vidar amps in my big room.



FYI: Freya+ has significantly reduced noise over Freya (I've had both). No idea how Saga compares to Freya+, but I have heard great things about Saga. (I also require balanced, so Freya+ it is for me.)


----------



## Ram18

Dueprocess said:


> Freya and Saga are only preamps (no DAC). As such, they only carry analog signals. They control volume by attenuating the analog signal. When I referred to "digital" and "analog" domain, my reference was volume control. From your description, it sounds as if you are using the Node as a DAC, in which case all connections post-Node would be analog, be they RCA, XLR, TRS, etc. (Alternatively, you could purchase a separate DAC and run Node > optical > DAC > Saga / Freya, but it didn't sound like that was your plan.)
> 
> I am not certain whether the Node 2i handles volume control digitally or via analog.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your detailed explanation. I am now aware what you meant. The analogue volume control is certainly a plus in the Freya/ Saga. Am not sure if node 2i uses vol control in the digital domain though.

Glad your Saga serves you well.  I have read many reviews about Saga being very refined and musical as well. My only concern is will I be losing out on the tube effect with the Freya + as Saga only has one tube. And some have said there is little difference between the passive and tube mode in the Saga. I think you would know best. How is the tube compared to the passive in your opinion? And how did the single tube compared to the Freya since you owned both? This would be a good reference. 

Havent really ruled out the Saga yet as another concern I have is the gain issues. My Klipsch  6000f speakers are highly efficient. Plus my XTZ power amp has a gain feature. I now have to lower the gain on the XTZ when I use my node 2i cause it gets too loud or bass heavy at higher volumes. So am.wondering will I face these gain issues with the Freya + as compared to the Saga as I have read tje Freya + in tube mode adds a bit of gain. 

Am just hoping to get a more musical emotional feel with the upgrade. Right now the sound is good  clear and crisp with some good soundstage. Just hoping to retain these aspects,  while getting a more involving emotional/holographic or musical feel.

As for the new Freya + they have reduced the noise floor as I have read.


----------



## Ram18

Dueprocess said:


> FYI: Freya+ has significantly reduced noise over Freya (I've had both). No idea how Saga compares to Freya+, but I have heard great things about Saga. (I also require balanced, so Freya+ it is for me.)


Hi. May I ask how is the Freya + in tube mode? As i have shared am looking for a more musical/holographic  feel and a better soundstage  while retaining the merits of clarity, transparency and opennes which I have with my solid state amp and node 2i/Marantz. Also did you face any gain issues esp in tube mode which is my concern if I get the Freya +.  As shared am running Klipsch which are high efficiency speakers and my XTZ power amp has a gain feature. Not sure if the Freya + will add too much gain.


----------



## Dueprocess (Jun 19, 2020)

Ram18 said:


> Hi. May I ask how is the Freya + in tube mode? As i have shared am looking for a more musical/holographic  feel and a better soundstage  while retaining the merits of clarity, transparency and opennes which I have with my solid state amp and node 2i/Marantz. Also did you face any gain issues esp in tube mode which is my concern if I get the Freya +.  As shared am running Klipsch which are high efficiency speakers and my XTZ power amp has a gain feature. Not sure if the Freya + will add too much gain.



Copying my prior posts re: impressions of Freya+ and experience w. Tung Sols vs RCAs (I believe Freya+ now ships w. JJs instead of Tung Sols, and I have not heard the JJs) for your reference below. I hope they are helpful. Re: your post above, I have not heard Saga firsthand -- just heard good things about it.

I do not have gain issues w. Freya+ in tube mode, although I do have inefficient speakers (Dynaudio Special 40s), so experience compared to your Klipsch's should be expected to vary. I do have to adjust volume when changing from Passive (which I almost never use, preferring JFET), JFET, and Tube modes, and there is a significant increase in volume levels from JFET to Tube... I typically turn Freya down several clicks before switching over.



Dueprocess said:


> Dueprocess said:
> 
> 
> > I recently moved from Freya (1) to Freya+.
> ...


----------



## Ram18

Dueprocess said:


> Copying my prior posts re: impressions of Freya+ and experience w. Tung Sols vs RCAs (I beloved Freya+ now ships w. JJs instead of Tung Sols, and I have bot heard the JJs) for your reference below. I hope they are helpful. Re: your post above, I have not heard Saga firsthand -- just heard good things about it.
> 
> I do not have gain issues w. Freya+ in tube mode, although I do have inefficient speakers (Dynaudio Special 40s), so experience compared to your Klipsch's should be expected to vary. I do have to adjust volume when changing from Passive (which I almost never use, preferring JFET), JFET, and Tube modes, and there is a significant increase in volume levels from JFET to Tube... I typically turn Freya down several clicks before switching over.


Thanks for bringing across this prior post. Its very helpful. Also the added caution of needing to switch vols before moving onto different modes. Glad you found the Freya + a worthwhile upgrade. Am hoping for the same.  Some fine speakers you have got there by the way. I dont know why Schiit has switched from Tung Sols to JJ. The Tung Sols were well reviewed as you have shared in your post. Not sure how the  JJ sounds.

I have  now some issues with my local distributor in getting the Freya +. He doesnt seem to be responsive and I hear that there is a backlog order in US.  And getting it from US may give me a trial but if something goes wrong I incur the added cost of freight to be shipped to and fro. Contemplating now if I should look at other options like the Musical Paradise 701  Mk II. Sigh. Hope I can still get either the Freya + or Saga though.


----------



## Zurv

Ram18 said:


> Hi Dueprocess
> 
> Tks for the useful insights. I have considered the Saga as am only using RCA  and as you rightly pointed out, its more cost effective and less expenses with tube roll. It also has some good reviews. The only thing I gathered was the Saga in terms of tube effect may not be as good as the Freya +.  Thats my concern, as I do wish  for good tube sound without losing openness, clarity and details as well as soundstage.  The 3 modes (Tube , JFET and Passive)  in Freya + also comes handy.  Thats why I have Freya + in my mind. Though the Saga option cost wise is a draw.
> 
> ...



If you are worried about the gain part of the 2i, don't use it. I own the 2i but only use it as a streamer and digital coax out to my dac. That said, i'm not sure how good the dac is in the 2i. I think it is "good" but not great.


----------



## motberg

Ram18 said:


> Hi Dueprocess
> 
> Tks for the useful insights. I have considered the Saga as am only using RCA  and as you rightly pointed out, its more cost effective and less expenses with tube roll. It also has some good reviews. The only thing I gathered was the Saga in terms of tube effect may not be as good as the Freya +.  Thats my concern, as I do wish  for good tube sound without losing openness, clarity and details as well as soundstage.  The 3 modes (Tube , JFET and Passive)  in Freya + also comes handy.  Thats why I have Freya + in my mind. Though the Saga option cost wise is a draw.
> 
> ...


I recently had a Saga +, and tested over 3 weeks with 4 of the popular tube options as well as the stock. Personally I can understand the criticism concerning lack of "tubey-ness"" (although I have not really seen much valid criticism generally). I ended up selling it, but agree with those that mention tube rolling the Freya + can get expensive quickly. I think both these will hold their resale value, and personally am not aware of options to the Freya + taking into account reported sound quality and feature set.


----------



## Ram18

Zurv said:


> If you are worried about the gain part of the 2i, don't use it. I own the 2i but only use it as a streamer and digital coax out to my dac. That said, i'm not sure how good the dac is in the 2i. I think it is "good" but not great.


I.am.intending to use the node 2i as fixed vol (so not using gain here) and the Saga + or Freya + as a preamp. My XTZ power amp has a gain feature though.


----------



## Ram18

motberg said:


> I recently had a Saga +, and tested over 3 weeks with 4 of the popular tube options as well as the stock. Personally I can understand the criticism concerning lack of "tubey-ness"" (although I have not really seen much valid criticism generally). I ended up selling it, but agree with those that mention tube rolling the Freya + can get expensive quickly. I think both these will hold their resale value, and personally am not aware of options to the Freya + taking into account reported sound quality and feature set.


I am now contemplating on the Saga +. May i know why you sold it? Yes the concern is a lack of tubiness. But some do say the tube version does add a good emotional feel. So not sure which is which. But most overwhelmingly say its a very transparent amp. Hope that also equates being musical.


----------



## motberg

Ram18 said:


> I am now contemplating on the Saga +. May i know why you sold it? Yes the concern is a lack of tubiness. But some do say the tube version does add a good emotional feel. So not sure which is which. But most overwhelmingly say its a very transparent amp. Hope that also equates being musical.


I have had a few of each solid state and tube (active and passive) economy-level (under 1500 USD) preamps in my system recently. The preamp selection was to be installed in my tube path. I have 2 inputs into my amp, and been setting-up for one path as solid state (clean) and the other side as euphoric, big stage with layers, magic mids, tubey, but still as precise as possible. With the idea to spend more $$ on the SS side. I tried the Saga + with these tubes:
1)     Psvane CV181-T/6SN7 MKII Balance and Tested Premium Grade Golden Pin (little bright, bloated lower mids, good mids especially acoustic guitar, not much depth)
2)     Vintage Raytheon 6SN7 GTB Copper Posts Vacuum Tube Results= 3030/2925 (Neutral, nice, closest to passive, vox sounds like direct mic feed)
3)     NOS Sylvania US JAN-CHS-6SN7GT/VT-231 Black 2 Rivet T Bad Boy Plate Tube (tight bass, balanced, narrow stage, nice mild mids bloom)
4)     METAL BASE 1 x BALANCED 6N8S = 6SN7 = ECC32 = 1578 MELZ tube mid 60's OTK (nice midrange tube bloom, overall linear)
5)     Tung-Sol (Russia) 6SN7-GTB, red base (OEM from factory) (adds some dynamics, tangible stage, highs maybe rolled off slightly)
6)     RCA 6SN7GTB, USA, 1962 (2 pcs.) (considerable bloom, thick-ish mids, super black background, good depth) 
None of these tubes sounded terrible, the comments are just critical comparisons to the passive mode. Also note this was my first exposure to 6SN7's - prior experience was mostly 6922, 12AU7, 5670, etc small tubes. The Saga + was 220V, I use a mains regenerator for clean power. Overall in passive mode, my impression the Saga + was clean control - but kind of obvious the signal was going through an electronic attenuation path.  In tube buffer mode, I did not have the sense of integration of the tube and volume control attributes. To me it seemed the tube effect was somewhat detached.

In my system, I preferred a Lightspeed LDR attenuator (12V battery) feeding a Black Ice Audio (Jolida) - Foz SS-X 12AU7 buffer (RCA clear top, powered by mains regenerator). The Lightspeed may actually measure worse than the Saga +, I have not checked, but to me the Lightspeed sounds like there is air in the black box, not electronics.  The Foz functions as-advertised with a 12AU7 RCA clear top (very good with the stock new Tong-Sol also) and offers euphoric, large stage with layers, magic mids, clean highs. (seems many tubes are bass heavy but Foz has a control to dial down the bass without obvious audible drawbacks).

The Lightspeed may not work well in all systems as you need be careful of cable selection and length, but as I have things setup it works well.
I am seriously considering replacing the Lightspeed with the Freya S (following the Foz). I could use the remote control and balanced output, and get the feeling from reports that Freya S may be even more transparent than Saga +, and also would offer some dynamics.


----------



## prosnowboarder (Jun 29, 2020)

Hello all, great thread here! and all these great impressions have made me very curious.

I have recently aquired an aegir as an amp to my klipsch rp8000 that I also recently acquired. I am running them alongside a pair of bose 901's with a bottom of the line marrantz reciever. NOT going to upgrade the bose system as it seems pointless but the klipsch seem to be ready for a better preamp. I am currently using my mj2 as a preamp for the aegir>klipsch. Really thinking about getting a freya+ but maybe it would not be as much of a benefit as I am imagining. Schiit has told me that the mj2 serves as a fine preamp for the aegir but I don't want to hold that beast back.

So my next step would be a better preamp, right? I have a yggy a2 with unison as the dac so I'm not upgrading that. I like the speakers so far and they seem to be ready for a better cleaner signal. I just hope by adding a preamp for the price I got both speakers for isn't going to be a disappointment in improvement since I already have the mj2. Any thoughts on that? is this worth it?

also I think I could then also use the freya+ as a preamp for the bose at the same time which may also improve their sound but I'm not that worried about them.

I am not going to be able to be tube rolling much because I don't want to buy a bunch of different expensive tubes and I'd rather just have a couple sets that I like and can switch back and forth for slightly different sound signatures. I have some tubes for my mj2 already but not sure how the whole tube thing works and compatibility so maybe a freya s would be a better choice for me? I do like the large soundstage, instrument separation, and romanticism that tubes present with my zmf Auteurs but is it worth it for this speaker setup?

any advice on my setup and a good preamp is very welcome. (especially if you think the mj2 not is sufficient as a preamp)


----------



## motberg

prosnowboarder said:


> Hello all, great thread here! and all these great impressions have made me very curious.
> 
> I have recently aquired an aegir as an amp to my klipsch rp8000 that I also recently acquired. I am running them alongside a pair of bose 901's with a bottom of the line marrantz reciever. NOT going to upgrade the bose system as it seems pointless but the klipsch seem to be ready for a better preamp. I am currently using my mj2 as a preamp for the aegir>klipsch. Really thinking about getting a freya+ but maybe it would not be as much of a benefit as I am imagining. Schiit has told me that the mj2 serves as a fine preamp for the aegir but I don't want to hold that beast back.
> 
> ...


I have not heard the MJ2, but have had a very similar hybrid preamp with 6922's. 
I think you should be able to get a fantastic sound (to my preferences) with a little 6922 tube rolling.
But you should also check the Yggy more direct, so I suggest get a SYS* first to get the tubes out of the path cleanly and cheaply...
https://www.schiit.com/products/sys
I think this will give you a pretty good general idea of the overall speaker characteristics, *but check if the interconnect cable distance limitations would work in your setup.


----------



## EELawson

prosnowboarder said:


> Hello all, great thread here! and all these great impressions have made me very curious.
> 
> I have recently aquired an aegir as an amp to my klipsch rp8000 that I also recently acquired. I am running them alongside a pair of bose 901's with a bottom of the line marrantz reciever. NOT going to upgrade the bose system as it seems pointless but the klipsch seem to be ready for a better preamp. I am currently using my mj2 as a preamp for the aegir>klipsch. Really thinking about getting a freya+ but maybe it would not be as much of a benefit as I am imagining. Schiit has told me that the mj2 serves as a fine preamp for the aegir but I don't want to hold that beast back.
> 
> ...



I was using my Mjolnir2 preamp for a while until I got my Freya+.  IMO, The Freya+ is a significant upgrade from the mj2 as a preamp.  In fact, when I use the mj2, I use the Freya+ as a preamp into the amp section of the mj2.  Sounds really good.

I run Aejir monoblocks from my Freya+ with a Gingnir Multibit DAC.  

My opinion is .......the mj2 preamp holds the Aejirs back.  I strongly encourage the Freya+.......in tube mode.   (I have no experience with Saga so no comment on Saga from me.)


----------



## prosnowboarder

yeah that was what I was hoping but for now I will try out the sys directly from the yggy and save up for the freya+. I have thoroughly enjoyed listening with the mj2 so far but maybe it's holding things back. or just not needed. Very interested to see how the yggy sounds without tubes... and with a really good tube preamp later on with the freya+. thanks for the great advice from both of you!


----------



## Zurv

I had planned on using the mj2 as a preamp too and asked Schiit about it. 
They told me that the mj2 isn't great as a preamp and suggested I use something else. It wasn't a sales push, they didn't suggest that i try the freya+.
That said, i did get the freya+ and i've been very happy.

I still use the mj2 for my headphone amp.
oh a side note, i'm still trying to find the right tubes for the mj2, but I did quickly find tubes i really liked in the Freya+
first, while "fine," i'd *replace the stock tubes in the Freya+*. The quick and ez replacement would be *Tung-sol*. (this used to be the stock tubes.. but now Schiit use the JJs - which are cheaper.)
If you want save some money (no such thing in tube rolling!!) focus on the two right tubes. They are the gain tubes (for left and right channels.) The two tubes on the left and the driver tubes. They still impact the sound, but much much less. Maybe keep the Tung-Sols in the left and try some fancy stuff in the right.

for me, the winning tubes for my freya+ were the CBS Hytron 5692 (but they are costly.)

A lot of people seem to like 6SN7GTB Sylvania from the 60s/70s - but do make sure they are matched (at least pair matched. The two on the left should match and the two on the right should match.) I found when mixed with the Vidar The Sylvanias had a little to much bass for me. (Vidar's strong point is bass too.) But you are using the Aegir so that isn't a problem.   

hrmm.. i was going to say go monoblock! but.. those Klipsch are 98 db sensitivity. You should be fine. but! you can go all XLR with monoblocks! (which will sound about the same  ) haha. The ladies will be impressed that you are using monoblocks?   (yes, i'm trying to justify going monoblock myself.. well.. with the Aegir i do need it. My speakers are 86 sensitivity and 4 ohms.)


----------



## FredoIsFishing

Can the Freya+ convert balanced to single-ended? Sorry if I missed it but I don‘t see that specified anywhere. I know it does single-ended to balanced.


----------



## Dueprocess

FredoIsFishing said:


> Can the Freya+ convert balanced to single-ended? Sorry if I missed it but I don‘t see that specified anywhere. I know it does single-ended to balanced.



It has single ended and balanced (XLR) inputs and outputs.


----------



## tincanear

Zurv said:


> I had planned on using the mj2 as a preamp too and asked Schiit about it.
> They told me that the mj2 isn't great as a preamp and suggested I use something else. It wasn't a sales push, they didn't suggest that i try the freya+.
> That said, i did get the freya+ and i've been very happy.
> 
> ...



interesting avatar.  Those tubes look like they're in jail.   

by the way, 4 ohms loads with Aegir in monoblock mode not recommended (can trip the protection circuits if cranked)


----------



## Zurv

tincanear said:


> interesting avatar.  Those tubes look like they're in jail.
> 
> by the way, 4 ohms loads with Aegir in monoblock mode not recommended (can trip the protection circuits if cranked)



No problems with Aegir monoblocks with my 4 ohms speakers.. even very loud. (Elac Vela BS 403) sensitivity is 86 - which is low, but not super low.
I didn't try with a single block, but my gut says that wouldn't have worked out well. (also, damn the Aegirs get hot. Now with fans on them they only cool to the Vidar levels of heat.)


----------



## prosnowboarder (Jul 11, 2020)

Loving my single aegir feeding my klipsch rp8000 so far...
After a lot of listening from the yggy a2 with unison feeding the aegir with a sys in between I am very satisfied. But that does still leave room for an extra touch on some songs especially since I don't plan on getting a sub. Just trying to push a bit more bass through the speakers instead. I have read that the aegir is lean on bass but I'm ok with that since the rest of the spectrum sounds so full and smooth.

I have been using the loki with some benefit here and there but still can't determine if it sounds better with the loki in between the yggy and the sys or in between the sys and the aegir. What is the proper setup for the loki?

I plan on purchasing a freya+ in the next few days so I'm also wondering for when I put that in the chain as well.

Will the freya+ be able to boost the bass with proper tubes? and when not using tubes, will the freya+ sound any different than the sys? The sys gets my speakers blasting beyond listening level so I don't need any more gain of volume. just any addition in sound quality will be well received by my hungry ears...

also one last thing. When using the loki, is it better to turn the dials up on the frequencies you want more of or lower the dials of the frequency you want less of?
I seem to be afraid to add anything and more likely to reduce the frequencies I want less of. Maybe because of hearing so many digital eq's that destroyed the signal with distortion if you turn it up too much.

I guess in other words, how is the loki able to amplify the sound above line level and is the quality still there without distortion? And is the loki being in the chAin with the freya+ going to hold things back or effect sound quality in any way? I'm thinking the combo of tubes and eq doesn't always work out well. but what about using the freya+ with the tube mode off?

I know that's a lot of questions and in no way concise but no need to tackle the whole thing at once. feel free to just add any input on any subject.  big thanks in advance to anyone who reads all this.

very excited to finally try out the freya+ and then to begin a long tube rolling excursion from there.


----------



## Crashem

Anyone know how Freya+ handles multiple amps (if it can)?  I want to connect it to both my headphone amp and my speaker amp.  I see a rca and balanced output.  Does it just output from both?  Is there an effect on sound quality from having both plugged in?  Or can you select the output from remote or on the deck itself.

thanks in advance


----------



## EELawson

Crashem said:


> Anyone know how Freya+ handles multiple amps (if it can)?  I want to connect it to both my headphone amp and my speaker amp.  I see a rca and balanced output.  Does it just output from both?  Is there an effect on sound quality from having both plugged in?  Or can you select the output from remote or on the deck itself.
> 
> thanks in advance


I run my Freya+ balanced connection to a pair of Aejir mono-blocks and the Freya+ single-ended connection to a tube power amp.  The Freya feeds whichever amp is on.

Works great.  I don't hear any sound quality impact from having both connected at the same time.

I sometimes switch the balanced connections from the Freya to instead, go to the Moljnir2 headphone amp.  That makes the Moljnir2 sound great.....much better than simply going from my DAC to the Moljnir2 and using the Moljnir's own preamp.


----------



## Mikem53

I’m trying some old tubes in the Freya+  I have some quads of GT and GTB tubes. Im sure schiit based the voltage off the GTB spec
I haven’t read anything about specifically using GTA/B vs GT.. Wondering if anyone knows how hard these tubes are driven.. or any experience with using the GT spec tubes..  they sound great !!  
Thanks in advance...


----------



## prosnowboarder (Jul 17, 2020)

Ok I pulled the trigger... on the freya+ but now am wondering:
am I going to be in over my head with getting the right tubes($) and then making a decision on what sounds the best. I like the aspect with my MJ2 but thinking it could get in the way of the speaker system. or at least too hard to achieve a perfect balance of the benefits(of tubes) without degrading the overall sound significantly.
this remorse could also be from my curiosity about the use of nexus in the freya s and if I will be missing out on it's capability with solid state. I read someone here is feeding the aegir(maybe 2?) with the freya s with satisfaction.
Will the freya+ in solid state mode sound inferior to the freya s?
The freya + says it uses a differential buffer stage. can anyone compare the differences between the two(nexus vs buffer) and how much they affect the sound?


----------



## KoshNaranek

Mikem53 said:


> I’m trying some old tubes in the Freya+  I have some quads of GT and GTB tubes. Im sure schiit based the voltage off the GTB spec
> I haven’t read anything about specifically using GTA/B vs GT.. Wondering if anyone knows how hard these tubes are driven.. or any experience with using the GT spec tubes..  they sound great !!
> Thanks in advance...


There is no issue between GT GTA or GTB with Freya. GTA has higher plate dissipation than GT. GTB has a more durable cathode for series heater circuits. Neither feature is necessary in Freya. Just use what sounds best or is cheaper.

Here is the reference:

https://www.effectrode.com/knowledge-base/the-6sn7gt-the-best-general-purpose-dual-triode/


----------



## Mikem53

KoshNaranek said:


> There is no issue between GT GTA or GTB with Freya. GTA has higher plate dissipation than GT. GTB has a more durable cathode for series heater circuits. Neither feature is necessary in Freya. Just use what sounds best or is cheaper.
> 
> Here is the reference:
> 
> https://www.effectrode.com/knowledge-base/the-6sn7gt-the-best-general-purpose-dual-triode/



thanks..  I came Across that as well.. also another article saying not to use GT in devices designed for GTA/B specs as they will reduce tube life significantly..  I’m not too worried about it as I have both types .. the GT’s do sound “different”..


----------



## Crashem

Anyone know if Freya+ is shipping?  Website says shipping 8/7 which is today,  My order still shows it’s on back order


----------



## rkindel

I am in the same boat as you. I placed my order the end of June and Schiit missed the 7-17-20 ship date. The 8-7 date came and went so I sent them a email. I got a response from George on 8-8 saying that they were receiving parts now but the waiting list was so long that they could not get them all out by 8-7. He said that it might be “several days” before all back orders are shipped. I take this as great news if it happens. I will post here when I get notification of shipment. Fingers crossed.


----------



## Crashem

rkindel said:


> I am in the same boat as you. I placed my order the end of June and Schiit missed the 7-17-20 ship date. The 8-7 date came and went so I sent them a email. I got a response from George on 8-8 saying that they were receiving parts now but the waiting list was so long that they could not get them all out by 8-7. He said that it might be “several days” before all back orders are shipped. I take this as great news if it happens. I will post here when I get notification of shipment. Fingers crossed.



Thanks for the info.  I'll do the same.  My order date was 7/15 so we get to see any logic to them filling back orders.


----------



## FredoIsFishing

*BACKORDERED, SHIPS OCT 13*

is what it says about the Freya+ On Schiit.com.


----------



## Crashem

When I log in and view my order, it says the following:

*Order Status:* Freya+ prior 7/23 building, after 7/23 ship Oct 

I sent an email for clarification and here is what I got:

_Thank you for your order.  We have started to receive the parts needed for
the Freyas and have resumed production and shipping backorders.  Due to the
number of backorders, it could take several days before all backorders have
shipped.  I'm sorry for the wait. _

So if I had to interpret the situation:  If you ordered before 7/23, then they are building your Freya+ over the next few days and shipping out.  If you ordered 7/23 and after, you are going to be waiting until OctXX for them to get more parts in.


----------



## rkindel

I got a email from Schiit this afternoon saying the my Freya+ will be ready to ship soon but I needed to re enter my credit card info as it has been so long that my original authorization had expired. 
Took care of that ,so, hoping I will get shipping notification tomorrow 8-11. If I’m lucky I may have it this weekend. Hope so anyway. Rerouted cabling and cleared out it’s shelf on the rack. Can’t wait.


----------



## Crashem

rkindel said:


> I got a email from Schiit this afternoon saying the my Freya+ will be ready to ship soon but I needed to re enter my credit card info as it has been so long that my original authorization had expired.
> Took care of that ,so, hoping I will get shipping notification tomorrow 8-11. If I’m lucky I may have it this weekend. Hope so anyway. Rerouted cabling and cleared out it’s shelf on the rack. Can’t wait.



Congrats!  Hope we both get them this week.  Luckily (or unluckily) I am in California so shipping should be fast.


----------



## prosnowboarder (Aug 15, 2020)

Well I just noticed my freya + shipped and might be here Sunday.
These tubes showed up a couple days ago and I have no clue what they are and if they are even compatible with the freya. 



I was going to order some 60s or 70's Sylvania 6sn7gtb but I'm having trouble figuring out what the dates are for each listing. They often just say vintage. actually just found these and think I will get them https://tubeworldexpress.com/products/6sn7gtb-sylvania-nos-1-pair?_pos=14&_sid=95b12e796&_ss=r
Also, I will get a set of 4 matched tungsols 6sn7gtbs just for fun.
Hopefully eventually I will get to try the CBS hytron 5692 but for now I think I'll be set with the stock jj, Sylvania, and tungsol tubes. Although any other recommendations are welcome. Thanks so much with all the help.


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## rkindel (Aug 18, 2020)

Received my Freya+ less than 24 hours ago. So far, the line stage sounds the best which isn’t surprising straight out of the box. Buffer stage isn’t quite as open and detailed as the pure line stage yet. I’m running a FM station through the buffer stage all night and I will try that again in a few hours and see if that helps.
So far the tube stage sounds, well, poor. Muddy bass and no “halographic” soundstage. Low fi all the way for sure. Not sure if running buffer stage all night will help with breaking in tube stage. Probably not. I would hate to use up all those tube hours by running it all night but probably no choice. Any pointers on breaking in the tube stage?
I’ve been surprised on just how far I have to crank up the volume knob. 2 o’clock position with tube stage and more like 3 o’clock with other stages.
Have I mentioned how much I love that line stage? It doesn’t get much better than this folks! Definitely worth the price of admission even if the tube stage continues to disappoint.
 One other thing. I have been running a Benchmark DAC1 USB directly into my power amp for the last 10 years. I was concerned that I might compromise some of it’s transparency and detail in exchange for the convenience of a remote control and switching offered by the Freya. No worries. If anything the volume control sounds even better than the one in the Benchmark. No small feat.


----------



## Dueprocess

rkindel said:


> Received my Freya+ less than 24 hours ago. So far, the line stage sounds the best which isn’t surprising straight out of the box. Buffer stage isn’t quite as open and detailed as the pure line stage yet. I’m running a FM station through the buffer stage all night and I will try that again in a few hours and see if that helps.
> So far the tube stage sounds, well, poor. Muddy bass and no “halographic” soundstage. Low fi all the way for sure. Not sure if running buffer stage all night will help with breaking in tube stage. Probably not. I would hate to use up all those tube hours by running it all night but probably no choice. Any pointers on breaking in the tube stage?
> I’ve been surprised on just how far I have to crank up the volume knob. 2 o’clock position with tube stage and more like 3 o’clock with other stages.
> Have I mentioned how much I love that line stage? It doesn’t get much better than this folks! Definitely worth the price of admission even if the tube stage continues to disappoint.
> One other thing. I have been running a Benchmark DAC1 USB directly into my power amp for the last 10 years. I was concerned that I might compromise some of it’s transparency and detail in exchange for the convenience of a remote control and switching offered by the Freya. No worries. If anything the volume control sounds even better than the one in the Benchmark. No small feat.



Assuming they're new, the tubes themselves definitely need some break / burn in.

Are you running the stock tubes? If so, did they ship with Tung Sols or JJs?


----------



## rkindel

Dueprocess said:


> Assuming they're new, the tubes themselves definitely need some break / burn in.
> 
> Are you running the stock tubes? If so, did they ship with Tung Sols or JJs?


Stock tubes are JJs


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## Dueprocess (Aug 18, 2020)

rkindel said:


> Stock tubes are JJs



Ah. I wish I could give you some feedback, but I've never heard 'em. It's possible that what you're hearing is the tubes, not the stage. My original Freya shipped with Tung Sols; I kept them when I bought Freya+, and I sold the new JJs with the old unit (I've since moved to RCAs).

Personally, I never considered the Tung Sols or the RCAs an upgrade in fidelity, per se; the buffer / passive stages are no doubt more analytical and transparent. But, while the tubes are certainly less "pure", I find I'm sometimes in the mood for their flavor.


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## rkindel (Aug 19, 2020)

Freya+ review
I have always enjoyed preamplifier reviews. Other than speakers, or arguably DACs, nothing defines the sound of a system more than a preamplifier. I enjoy them because, when the reviewer is really feeling the love, nothing can compare with the verbal imagery and hyperbole when trying to express the writer’s enthusiasm. This will be one of those reviews.
I’ve been using a Benchmark DAC1 USB directly feeding my power amp for a decade. I’m a enthusiastic member of the “no preamp is the best preamp” club. When I bought my Benchmark the digital side of my system finally got me where I felt I was finally getting a taste of high end sound. My only reservation was the slight analytical and cool flavor I sometimes heard. Conventional wisdom says insert a preamp with tubes for a musical sound. Theoretically the Freya+ could give me that, maybe with some “halo graphic soundstage“, while preserving the transparency that I enjoy through using the line or buffer stage.
I waited about a month and a half for my Freya to come out of back order. I spent my wait time searching the internet for Freya reviews. I found a informative one on Youtube by New Record Day. He thought the line stage sounded very good with transparency as a strong point. He said the bass was a bit light, though, and that it lacked dynamics. He felt the buffer stage was “better in every way”. Dynamics were improved  and “mids and bass were given “meat on the bone”. He referred to the tube stage as the “dessert”.
When I finally plugged in my example, just 3 days ago now, I didn’t give much thought to trying the line stage. I went to the “better in every way” buffer stage. Compared to what I was used to with the Benchmark volume control I heard bass that was a bit softer, not quite as deep and not quite as controlled. Mids were nice and quite transparent. Highs and dynamics were good. As I put on more time everything improved to the point that overall sound was very competitive to the Benchmark out sound.
Then I tried the tube stage. Not good. Muddy bass, vailed, poor definition overall. This was not totally unexpected with new tubes so I went back to try the line stage.
Oh my! Couldn’t believe my ears. I was hearing things like my wildest fantasies of what the tubes might sound like. First thing- dynamics. Even if the bass wasn’t prominent in the recording it had a propelled property to it. The forward front of bass notes seemed to spring out into the room like a vertical wall. I listened to some bass guitar, not rocking in volume. I happened to touch a finger tip to the fake leather of my couch. I could faintly feel the bass line through my fingers. Dynamics were apparent on a micro scale to. Like fingers on guitar strings, small details in the upper range of female voices, room tone. All was revealed with boldness and delicacy at the same time. Highs were almost antiseptically clean but not etched. I could go on.
I am not a professional writer. My lame attempts to describe to you are inadequate at best. Let’s just say I am pleased with the line stage in my system. Any problems I have with the tube stage is moot at this point. Maybe it will improve with burn in. Maybe I will eventually replace the JJ tubes. I will have a hard time switching from the line stage to burn the tubes in. I will probably continue to run a FM signal through the tubes tonight.
Before I close I feel I need to offer a possible explanation as to why my experience with the line stage seems to differ so radically. I’m no preamp expert. But I have read that line stages are very dependent on how they interact with the other components that they “see”. Maybe a clue can be found in the owner’s manual for the DAC. It has “a high-current output stage designed to drive long cables or low-impedance loads, such as high end power-amplifiers.” Also “The DAC1 USB features drivers that are capable of driving 300-Ohm loads without increase in distortion. They are also well suited for driving long cables or high-capacitance loads.” I am using Benchmark balanced cables DAC to Freya and Benchmark balanced to RCA cables from the balanced out to my single ended power amp.
My guess is these factors may help to explain why I am not experiencing any lack of bass or dynamics with the line stage. Bottom line- Maybe I just lucked out that my system just enjoys a synergy with the Freya+ line stage. So, mileage may certainly vary.


----------



## Crashem

Crashem said:


> Congrats!  Hope we both get them this week.  Luckily (or unluckily) I am in California so shipping should be fast.



Freya was received with this last batch so definitely can confirm they are shipping back orders.


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## rkindel

Sad to say, sent mine back to Schiit this morning. I began experiencing violent pops when listening to tube stage. I was hoping that it would be a simple tube swap but Schiit thouget it was a problem with the unit itself. Last Tuesday late the tubes started to burn in. Started with noticing the bass improving dramatically then, over the course of a hour or so, improvements worked itself up the spectrum. I never experienced anything like it. Very trippy. The next day started having serious problems. Schiit sent me a tracking # a few hours ago for my replacement Freya+. Estimate arrival 8-31-20.


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## monk (Aug 25, 2020)

socklosk said:


> I just received my Noval tube savers ($17 from China with quick delivery) and I was wondering how in the heck do I remove them from my Freya? Do I have to take the cover off of my Freya?


I briefly had a Freya+ here - A great machine, but I'd changed directions for that room's system even before the Freya+ arrived 
But, it had a set of tube risers/ socket savers and experimented with them as I gave the Freya+ a quick trial to assure all was 100% and to see how I liked it.

To remove the socket savers I used gloved hands, a little patience and a cheap automotive pick and hook set.  Specifically, the one with the full hook (like a pirates hand) .

Such a hook can be rolled into the center hole of the socket saver and then its hook will grab and hold, allowing a vertical pull on the hook handle.  Instead of one big pull, I worked gently around the socket saver, pulling gently and lightly rocking in one position, then resetting the hook etc.  Before long the socket saver is out with zero damage to the Freya+.

Each only takes a minute or two. 

Note that the pictured tool is just an example, not the exact one that I used.  Mine was not special, just a promo set near the counter at auto parts store...


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## EELawson

Does the Freya+ provide SE-to-balanced conversion in both the buffer mode and the tube mode?  The handbook for the Freya+ clearly states that, yes, SE-to-balanced conversion is provided in both modes (but not in the passive mode.)  

However, when reading the write-up for the Freya+ on Schiit's website, it clearly only indicates that SE-to-balanced conversion happens in the buffer mode.  

So,.....does SE-to-balanced conversion happen in the tube mode on Freya+?


----------



## Licht

rkindel said:


> Sad to say, sent mine back to Schiit this morning. I began experiencing violent pops when listening to tube stage. I was hoping that it would be a simple tube swap but Schiit thouget it was a problem with the unit itself. Last Tuesday late the tubes started to burn in. Started with noticing the bass improving dramatically then, over the course of a hour or so, improvements worked itself up the spectrum. I never experienced anything like it. Very trippy. The next day started having serious problems. Schiit sent me a tracking # a few hours ago for my replacement Freya+. Estimate arrival 8-31-20.



My JJs replacement tubes from Schiit has some popping sound. Sometimes violent. I stopped using it.
Too bad I kept them unopen for couple of months before I unboxed and started to use them.
Too late to complain for.

To me. JJ has more tuby sound compared to TungSols (bought from TubeDepot).


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## rkindel

EELawson said:


> Does the Freya+ provide SE-to-balanced conversion in both the buffer mode and the tube mode?  The handbook for the Freya+ clearly states that, yes, SE-to-balanced conversion is provided in both modes (but not in the passive mode.)
> 
> However, when reading the write-up for the Freya+ on Schiit's website, it clearly only indicates that SE-to-balanced conversion happens in the buffer mode.
> 
> So,.....does SE-to-balanced conversion happen in the tube mode on Freya+?


Yes it does


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## rkindel

Licht said:


> My JJs replacement tubes from Schiit has some popping sound. Sometimes violent. I stopped using it.
> Too bad I kept them unopen for couple of months before I unboxed and started to use them.
> Too late to complain for.
> 
> To me. JJ has more tuby sound compared to TungSols (bought from TubeDepot).


Based on the short time I actually had a working tube stage with half way burned in tubes, I would say I think I could happily live with the JJs.


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## Btarr

I received my FREYA+ about a week ago - maybe one of the last units out of this latest run I'm guessing.

So, to those still awaiting delivery and as an FYI:  

My freya+ came with Electro-Harmonix as STOCK (I was expecting JJs). I had also ordered a 2nd set of quads as "upgrade" or just as backups, and received TUNG-SOLs as the upgrade.   
This was for me here in California, maybe the tube allotment is different regionally? I don't know.  

I have a pair psvane-uk on the way but I really like the TUNG-SOL. I like the EHs but find them a bit harsh at the high end.  
I'm too new to all this to dive deep into NOS tubes and hope understand the distinctions between all the 5692s and JAN...6sn7 yada' yada' yadda'... but soon!

This "POPING" sound people are reporting....  I hear an intermittent POP from mine but maybe only 5-6 times in a 10 hr day of listening and NOT ONLY from the TUBE stage.  
I hope this isn't an issue later, I am really enjoying tubes, never heard tube magic before and, just, wow.


----------



## rkindel

Btarr said:


> I received my FREYA+ about a week ago - maybe one of the last units out of this latest run I'm guessing.
> 
> So, to those still awaiting delivery and as an FYI:
> 
> ...


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## rkindel

I hope my Freya in route has the JJ tubes. The Tung Sol would be interesting as well. The pops I experienced were loud as gun shots and were not affected by the volume knob position. The cat was on my lap first time it happened. She must have jumped a foot.


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## Btarr

rkindel said:


> I hope my Freya in route has the JJ tubes. The Tung Sol would be interesting as well. The pops I experienced were loud as gun shots and were not affected by the volume knob position. The cat was on my lap first time it happened. She must have jumped a foot.


I hope for your sake that the cat was de-clawed


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## rkindel

Btarr said:


> I hope for your sake that the cat was de-clawed


Yes, we both are OK. Only damage was to our mental states.


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## Btarr

rkindel said:


> Schiit sent me a tracking # a few hours ago for my replacement Freya+. Estimate arrival 8-31-20.



So did the NEW Freya+ unit come in? And did the tubes continue open up? And for god sake tell us you got something better then the JJs to play with.


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## rkindel

Btarr said:


> So did the NEW Freya+ unit come in? And did the tubes continue open up? And for god sake tell us you got something better then the JJs to play with.


Yes, and this time it came with Tung Sol’s. I don’t know if it is because I now have a properly functioning tube section or if it is the tubes themselves but this one sounds significantly better cold out of the box. I suspect it’s the tubes. I ran them around 14 hours the first day and I don’t think I am there yet. Even now it is very enjoyable to listen to. If they improve even half as much as the JJs did I will be super satisfied. If they do, I would recommend the Tung Sol as a upgrade to anyone who is interested is a upgrade from the JJs. Listened the the Beatles “Love” CD with tubes. Enjoyed it beginning to end. Then I switched to passive stage and it was clear (Ha Ha) that the tubes still have a way to go.


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## Btarr (Sep 1, 2020)

rkindel said:


> Yes, and this time it came with Tung Sol’s. I don’t know if it is because I now have a properly functioning tube section or if it is the tubes themselves but this one sounds significantly better cold out of the box. I suspect it’s the tubes. I ran them around 14 hours the first day and I don’t think I am there yet. Even now it is very enjoyable to listen to. If they improve even half as much as the JJs did I will be super satisfied. If they do, I would recommend the Tung Sol as a upgrade to anyone who is interested is a upgrade from the JJs. Listened the the Beatles “Love” CD with tubes. Enjoyed it beginning to end. Then I switched to passive stage and it was clear (Ha Ha) that the tubes still have a way to go.



I know that it really does not mean anything but the pricing (around the inter webs) of the JJs, the Tung-Sol, and the Electro-Harmonixs which my FREYA+ came with as stock, show the cheapest are the JJs and then the Ems, then the Tung-Sol.   So if $ = quality... looks like maybe you got the "upgraded" tubes?  Good for you if that's the fact.  The Tung-Sols are noticeably better then the Em's, to my ear anyway never heard the JJs. Do give the TS a bit of burn in. 

Well enjoy the new box!


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## Crashem (Sep 2, 2020)

So I got Freya+ as gift.  I had a bunch of 6sn7‘s lying around so I lent them to my buddy too.  He called me up and said he was trying different tube pairs out.  Said he really like the vt-231 Tungsols.  haha of course he did.  Funny thing is he knows nothing about tubes and which are which so there must be something to the round plate magic


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## Btarr (Sep 3, 2020)

Man, I need to find someone with a box of tubes to burrow....

But until then I've got two PSVANE-UK's "cooking" in the freya right now. 
I get moments of the potential that these have but, AS ADVERTISED, the PSVANE-uk's take along while to burn in. 

I have some NOS CBS Hytron 6sn7GTB T-plate, O side getter coming today or tomorrow.  I don't think these are anything really special but for $60 maybe I'll get a taste of the vintage tube sound everyone talks about.


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## Btarr

So I see this in "The 6sn7 Identification Guide" 

"The 6SN7GTA and GTB versions were introduced in 1950 and 1954 respectively. They have ‘upgraded’ ratings, which are as follows.

GTA: maximum anode dissipation upgraded to 5W (the GT is rated for 2.5W) 
GTB: identical to the GTA, but with a controlled heater warm up time for use in equipment with 600mA heater strings

This is significant because it means that a circuit designed around the 6SN7GTA/GTB cannot have 6SN7GTs substituted into it. Substituting a *GT in place of a GTA/GTB in your equipment will precipitate its rapid destruction and possibly damage your equipment."*

So the question is will 6sn7GT tubes kill the FREYA?


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## KoshNaranek

Btarr said:


> So I see this in "The 6sn7 Identification Guide"
> 
> "The 6SN7GTA and GTB versions were introduced in 1950 and 1954 respectively. They have ‘upgraded’ ratings, which are as follows.
> 
> ...


The heater circuit is not in series but in parallel. It does not apply


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## Btarr

KoshNaranek said:


> The heater circuit is not in series but in parallel. It does not apply


Thanks for fielding a question from someone who knows just enough to ask dumb questions


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## rkindel

Further thoughts- The tube stage
 I read recently that spring water is the purest drinking water found in nature and any contamination no matter how minute is very hard to remove later. My earlier raves describing the sound of the Freya’s passive stage were, of course, wrong. The passive stage has no sound of it’s own. My glowing praise was due to the removal of minute amounts of contamination from the preamp section of my Benchmark DAC. This DAC measures squeaky clean by the way. The big news concerning this preamp is the outstanding purity allowed by the design of the volume control. The same volume control used by all the various stages this preamp offers. I have never experienced a megabuck high end preamp and probably never will. But this passive stage delivers like my minds ear imagines those might. To do this for $899 makes the Freya+ the very definition of “giant killer” in my book.
 My replacement Freya came with Tung Sol tubes. I’ve been listening to them for only a week now and that is probably too short a time to draw long term conclusions. Maybe (hopefully) big improvements are yet to be revealed. On the other hand I haven’t heard any significant changes in the last few days so I’m going to forge ahead with my preliminary opinion now.
 The tube stage is not completely neutral. This is most obvious from the mid bass down. There is a bump that, on some material, can add warmth but on some material with significant bass content it can be, frankly, more like annoying. Secondly there is a definite roll off in deep bass. The drama and jump factor that is such a strong point with the passive stage suffers as a result. Lastly the bass overall is less tight and suffers a bit from bloat.
 As you go up things improve. Perspective is neutral to slightly forward. Highs are mostly clean and definitively not soft with both the Tung Sol nor the JJ tubes I had previously. The Tung Sol tubes sounded pretty good out of the box while the JJs required required more time to achieve similar goodness.
 I have struggled to hear aspects that could make the tube stage a viable alternative to the passive stage. I have not experienced any “halo graphic imaging”. I don’t hear the soundstage extend out beyond my speakers. In fact, I think the soundstage is more solid and open with the passive stage.
 The one positive I have heard could be described as having a certain density or liquidity that is missing with the passive stage that is very nice. My DAC is known the have a somewhat dry sound so this coloration(?)could make a welcome change. This quality, unfortunately, is rather elusive. I have noticed a similar elusiveness with my system long before the Freya arrived. Some days I experience rapturous sound from my system that can disappear the next day. This liquidity seems to happen more at night just before I am ready to shut the system down. Maybe this has something to do with tube temps or something. I have also considered the quality of the electrical feed, atmospheric pressure or humidity or maybe what I ate for dinner. Who knows. 
 I would love to hear from others who appreciate the tube stage more. Maybe I’m not listening for the right thing or maybe I just haven’t given it enough time. I really want to like it more!
 Bottom line- In the day of $10000 phono stages and power cords is $300 more for the tube stage over a preamp like the Freya S, when it was available, I would have to say yes. Even if the positive isn’t evident 100% of the time.


----------



## Btarr

rkindel said:


> Further thoughts- The tube stage
> I read recently ....



I am with you 100% on the *"certain density or liquidity that is missing with the passive stage".*   I think of it as standing in a mist VS a swimming in a pool, but yeah.

Regarding the lack holographic experience.   
I felt/saw/heard prolonged flashes of holography when I first received my freya+, only with the Tung-Sols though. Mine came with EHs (stock) and I ordered TSs quad, matched yada' yada' from Schiit, thinking "upgrade". 
Soon after I got a NOS pair of CBS/HYTRON 6SN7GTB...   I don't think these are particularly special BUT these guys bring some more of the "thing" we are looking for.
So NOS.... NOS might be the answer?  It was for me and now I have some: 6SN7 GTB RCA, bridge filament and Sylvania 6SN7GT "Staggered Black Plates" pairs on order. 
So there's that then.

Also, I have the Schiit Modi-Multibit DAC and as Schiit says it measures badly relative to sigma delta DACs, but it, subjectively, sounds "better".  

I'm just now wading into all this, so take the above with knowledge that I really  don't know what the hell I'm talking about.


----------



## rkindel

Btarr said:


> I am with you 100% on the *"certain density or liquidity that is missing with the passive stage".*   I think of it as standing in a mist VS a swimming in a pool, but yeah.
> 
> Regarding the lack holographic experience.
> I felt/saw/heard prolonged flashes of holography when I first received my freya+, only with the Tung-Sols though. Mine came with EHs (stock) and I ordered TSs quad, matched yada' yada' from Schiit, thinking "upgrade".
> ...


I see that Upscale Audio is promoting the CBS/Hyron tube on their website for a ungodly price. Interesting that you don’t find them all that special. Maybe I should try some other tubes. Do you hear the liquidity all the time with your Freya?


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## Dueprocess (Sep 7, 2020)

rkindel said:


> I see that Upscale Audio is promoting the CBS/Hyron tube on their website for a ungodly price. Interesting that you don’t find them all that special. Maybe I should try some other tubes. Do you hear the liquidity all the time with your Freya?



After looking at various options online, I took a chance and went through Vintage Tube Services (following advice I rec'd on forums):
http://vintagetubeservices.com/

The website isn't the prettiest, and the buying process has to be handled over the phone, but the prices are very competitive, the supply appears to be transparent (stock list, model, year, etc. - all specific), and I had no complaints w. my order (RCA 6SN7 GTB). I'd shop there again.

I found the RCAs much better than the Tung Sols (which came w. Freya), and I'm happy with the $ spent.

That being said, when listening for "purity" (i.e. transparency / accuracy), I use the passive or JFET buffer, and I use those buffers for most of my casual listening, too. I only use the tube stage maybe 30% of the time.

Re: your "spring water" analogy earlier... tubes definitely add something to the music. Is that addition a contaminant or a flavor? I'd argue it's both. Sometimes I'm in the mood for it, but I wouldn't say it's "better" (it's undeniably distortion, or at least, whatever it is, it brings with it measurable distortion). I guess I say all that because, per your prior comments, you seem to put a lot of value in transparency and being "true to the source." The "magic" others find in tubes may not be what you consider magic, and if you're looking for the magic they describe, you might be chasing a ghost.

Personally, I enjoy having the option to listen to the tube stage, but I don't think I'd want it to be my only option. If I had to pick one option only, I wouldn't pick the tubes. Luckily, I don't have to choose just one. I usually use the same analogy for vinyl and for tubes (vs digital and passive / solid state): they're like an unfiltered beer... you get some sediment, and you get some character.


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## Btarr (Sep 7, 2020)

rkindel said:


> I see that Upscale Audio is promoting the CBS/Hyron tube on their website for a ungodly price. Interesting that you don’t find them all that special. Maybe I should try some other tubes. Do you hear the liquidity all the time with your Freya?



I hear it ALL the time but only with the tubes on.
I put the Tung-Sols in the left side and the CBS on the right and its hit and miss 40/60 for holographics.

BUT! For good or bad, I bought a pair of PSVANE-UK from grant fidelity (these take forever to break in) they bring a lot of weight/mass/liquidity to the sound but are just the slightest bit...?...?....milkey? You can see through it but its just a bit, like cheep sunglasses, no longer squinting because of the brightness rather squinting trying to see perfectly clearly.  This is where the CBS/HYTRONs come in to play, and I hope the other NOS pairs get in on it too.  The CBS's w/ the PS's seem to crystalize the highs and WAM!  Holography! But, and here is the weird thing .... I put the CBS's in the left side and the PS's in right side and that seems to work best.

The novelty of tubes hasn't worn off yet, so I'm having trouble even listening to the other two modes. JFET and passive I like for 80's metal (reliving my childhood)  the music seems faster out of those two modes.


----------



## rkindel

Dueprocess said:


> After looking at various options online, I took a chance and went through Vintage Tube Services (following advice I rec'd on forums):
> http://vintagetubeservices.com/
> 
> The website isn't the prettiest, and the buying process has to be handled over the phone, but the prices are very competitive, the supply appears to be transparent (stock list, model, year, etc. - all specific), and I had no complaints w. my order (RCA 6SN7 GTB). I'd shop there again.
> ...


I think this is what I was shooting for with my Freya purchase. I want more than one experience with my music while preserving a certain minimum in acceptable quality. If I can achieve what while raising that minimum acceptable quality with the tube side all better. Besides it adds another fun side to the hobby.


----------



## rkindel

Btarr said:


> I hear it ALL the time but only with the tubes on.
> I put the Tung-Sols in the left side and the CBS on the right and its hit and miss 40/60 for holographics.
> 
> BUT! For good or bad, I bought a pair of PSVANE-UK from grant fidelity (these take forever to break in) they bring a lot of weight/mass/liquidity to the sound but are just the slightest bit...?...?....milkey? You can see through it but its just a bit, like cheep sunglasses, no longer squinting because of the brightness rather squinting trying to see perfectly clearly.  This is where the CBS/HYTRONs come in to play, and I hope the other NOS pairs get in on it too.  The CBS's w/ the PS's seem to crystalize the highs and WAM!  Holography! But, and here is the weird thing .... I put the CBS's in the left side and the PS's in right side and that seems to work best.
> ...


This is fascinating and is just the kind of insights I am looking for. Gives me hope that things will just continue to get better and better. Thank you so much for posting.


----------



## rkindel

I am having a great tube day. Just like my earlier experience with the JJ tubes, with my first unit, I am experiencing that trippy tube burn in sequence all over again. Started with the deep bass magically appearing and working its way up. Sound has snapped into focus. Delicious, luscious improved in every way. And, hold on to your seats, halographic soundstage up the wazoo. There is no mistaking this drastic change all in a 90 minute time span or so. Turned in off for a while and, lo and behold, it still sounded like that when I powered it up again! Can’t believe the drastic change. So, I am convinced that the burn in period just wasn’t finished before. May not go to bed tonight.


----------



## Btarr (Sep 7, 2020)

rkindel said:


> I am having a great tube day. Just like my earlier experience with the JJ tubes, with my first unit, I am experiencing that trippy tube burn in sequence all over again. Started with the deep bass magically appearing and working its way up. Sound has snapped into focus. Delicious, luscious improved in every way. And, hold on to your seats, halographic soundstage up the wazoo. There is no mistaking this drastic change all in a 90 minute time span or so. Turned in off for a while and, lo and behold, it still sounded like that when I powered it up again! Can’t believe the drastic change. So, I am convinced that the burn in period just wasn’t finished before. May not go to bed tonight.



I'm glad I'm not the only one enjoying the Schiit out of my freya.  The new allotment was sent out and everyone went quiet!

What is your set up?

I fell into all of this by accident, but I put together:
MacBook Pro-> Schiit WYRD-> Schiit Modi Multibit-> Schiit Loki-> FREYA+ -> Swan Hivi M300 (Just a decent active speaker, I've not heard a KEF or Kii? or the like) but theses M300s really bring it.

I'm shocked at just how bad some studio recordings of some of my favorite music sounds.  Not bad gear on my end but bad recordings.  But I listen to a lot of acoustic, singer songwriter, bluegrass.  Nathaniel Rateliff, for example is all over the place but I love the music. Loki to the rescue!


I'm not running any real top end speakers so my experience with the freya and opinion are... well I don't have anything to compare all this to. Last stereo I had was like, a Kenwood something and those BOSE 301(?)  speakers,  I know, I know.  It's been years since I've listened to music at home, on purpose, so this, I think, IS a step up.


----------



## rkindel

Btarr said:


> I'm glad I'm not the only one enjoying the Schiit out of my freya.  The new allotment was sent out and everyone went quiet!
> 
> What is your set up?
> 
> ...


Looks like your system is full of Schiit. Sorry, couldn’t resist. I have been in this hobby most of my life so mostly vintage gear. I run a pair of Dahlquist DQ10s I bought new in 1977. Mirror imaged with crossover mod. Main source is iPad running Qobuz hi res mostly. Audioquest Carbon USB to Benchmark DAC1 USB, Benchmark balanced cable to Freya and Benchmark balanced to single ended cable to a modified Adcom GFA 5500 power amp. Velodyne F1500 sub. For vinyl it’s Lynn Asak moving coil cartridge on a Grace 707mk II tone arm on a Thorens TD 125mk lI turntable feeding a new Schiit Mani phono stage. Old Pioneer DVD used as a CD transport. A pair of Sonus faber Venere 3.0 speakers sitting in a corner unused. What was I thinking. Can’t hold a candle to my Dahlquists.


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## Btarr

rkindel said:


> Looks like your system is full of Schiit. Sorry, couldn’t resist. I have been in this hobby most of my life so mostly vintage gear. I run a pair of Dahlquist DQ10s I bought new in 1977. Mirror imaged with crossover mod. Main source is iPad running Qobuz hi res mostly. Audioquest Carbon USB to Benchmark DAC1 USB, Benchmark balanced cable to Freya and Benchmark balanced to single ended cable to a modified Adcom GFA 5500 power amp. Velodyne F1500 sub. For vinyl it’s Lynn Asak moving coil cartridge on a Grace 707mk II tone arm on a Thorens TD 125mk lI turntable feeding a new Schiit Mani phono stage. Old Pioneer DVD used as a CD transport. A pair of Sonus faber Venere 3.0 speakers sitting in a corner unused. What was I thinking. Can’t hold a candle to my Dahlquists.


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## Btarr (Sep 7, 2020)

Yeah, I'm new enough to all this Schiit to still get a laugh.   So lay the Schiit on thick I got a stack of Schiit and I'm happy!

As is evidence by my complete lack of familiarity with ANY of your gear I am now certain that I am NOVICE to all this. That being said and by way of a consult.... 
Did I start out ok? I mean with the Schiit gear?  And what do people "in the know" think about Swan HiVi speakers?  Or are they even on audiophile's radar? I like the idea of active speakers (bespoke internal amp and all) and I ask about Swan because I already want an upgrade to a pair w/ balanced inputs (Swan M3aII).


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## rkindel

Btarr said:


> Yeah, I'm new enough to all this Schiit to still get a laugh.   So lay the Schiit on thick I got a stack of Schiit and I'm happy!
> 
> As is evidence by my complete lack of familiarity with ANY of your gear I am now certain that I am NOVICE to all this. That being said and by way of a consult....
> Did I start out ok? I mean with the Schiit gear?  And what do people "in the know" think about Swan HiVi speakers?  Or are they even on audiophile's radar? I like the idea of active speakers (bespoke internal amp and all) and I ask about Swan because I already want an upgrade to a pair w/ balanced inputs (Swan M3aII).


So what is the Schiit WYRD? Could not find it on their products page.  I considered the Loki at one point, has good reviews, but decided against it. I am in the same boat with your equipment list. Most of it I am unfamiliar with. Generally I have a problem with active speakers. Speakers determine the overall sound of a system to such a extent that I build my whole system around it. So I don’t want to change speakers very often. If the manufacturer goes out of business servicing the amp could be a problem. Also, I want to choose my own amplifier. Last, if that amp in the speaker goes down the whole system goes down. Just my personal preference. They seem to be popular, though, And they come with their own advantages.
 Being a audiophile can be a lonely and isolating hobby. We are pretty rare. Sometimes I really want to talk  about my interest but most people’s eyes just glaze over if you try. The internet is a wonderful thing. Back in the day, we were limited to magazines like Stereophile and The Absolute Sound and their publishing was sporadic at best. Also, we have wonderful sounding products like the Freya at amazing prices. Never been a better time than these if you enjoy sound.


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## mbritt

Btarr said:


> Swan Hivi M300 (Just a decent active speaker,


I had the Swan M200mkII speakers on my desktop several years ago and loved those speakers.  They are kind of under the radar here in the US.  I can't imagine how good they would sound using a Modi Multibit and Freya in the chain.


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## Btarr (Sep 8, 2020)

rkindel said:


> So what is the Schiit WYRD? Could not find it on their products page.  I considered the Loki at one point...



They don't sell the WYRD anymore. 
They, in a very Schiit way, called the WYRD a "USB DE-CRAPIFIER".... My understanding is that it re-clocks the usb signal gets all the ones and zeros in order and sends them down the line, in time and with no usb device to power it does not have that, to add signal noise. 
The idea being that a usb single to a say, a printer DOES have to get to the printer but not all at the same time and as one flow where as a music signal ideally would to get to the DAC lined up ready to go.   OVERSIMPLIFICATION!!!! but I think thats the gist.
Schiit was a little vague on the details and I got mine off ebay for $50, figured I'd give it try.

I understand that TONE control is kind of frowned upon these days but the LOKI allows me to tweak to the variation in recording quality not to mention that it has a bypass switch so if I don't need it its just gone.  I've read some reviews saying that the LOKI does what it does in some elegant way that I don't understand, but for $175 I was sold!





mbritt said:


> I had the Swan M200mkII speakers on my desktop several years ago and loved those speakers.  They are kind of under the radar here in the US.  I can't imagine how good they would sound using a Modi Multibit and Freya in the chain.



It was a review on that very speaker that turned me on to swan (Z Reviews on youtube)  So my M300s are the 6 1/2" version of the m200ii.  I'm impressed but then I don't have much to compare them to.
The Modi Multibit just really opens up the sound.  I tried a Dragonfly Cobalt for a couple weeks and there was just nothing compared to the MODI.  They talk about musicality,  that the modi sounds "more musical" and, yeah it just does. I have my eye on the Schiit Bifrost  2 DAC as it has balanced outs and a remote but I need to stop spending $$$.


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## rkindel

Btarr said:


> They don't sell the WYRD anymore.
> They, in a very Schiit way, called the WYRD a "USB DE-CRAPIFIER".... My understanding is that it re-clocks the usb signal gets all the ones and zeros in order and sends them down the line, in time and with no usb device to power it does not have that, to add signal noise.
> The idea being that a usb single to a say, a printer DOES have to get to the printer but not all at the same time and as one flow where as a music signal ideally would to get to the DAC lined up ready to go.   OVERSIMPLIFICATION!!!! but I think thats the gist.
> Schiit was a little vague on the details and I got mine off ebay for $50, figured I'd give it try.
> ...


I was considering the LOKI back when I was running my Sonus faber speakers. They do not have any way to adjust tweeter output and I always considered them too bright. When I developed the opinion that they also lacked mid range resolution compared to the Dahlquists I just kind of gave up on them. No equalizer will help that.


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## rkindel

Yesterday was a great tube day. Sorry to say today the magic is no where to be found. This lack of consistency is frustrating. I’m going with the theory that this break in thing is on going.


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## Btarr (Sep 10, 2020)

rkindel said:


> Yesterday was a great tube day. Sorry to say today the magic is no where to be found. This lack of consistency is frustrating. I’m going with the theory that this break in thing is on going.



The Tung-Sols did that to me too.  The *magic* would seem to come and go.
I just today got a pair of: *6SN7 GTB RCA NOS ,bridge filament.  *Those along with the *NOS Matched Pair CBS Hytron USA 6SN7GTB Black T Plate O Get Tubes, *and again I don't think either pair are suppose to be anything particularly amazing, but I'm having  a lot of fun this evening.  Maybe get your self some properly old, NOS tubes,  these modern tubes just tease too much.


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## Btarr

OK, just received a pair of SYLVANIA JAN CHS 6SN7WGT 1958 (?Matched? $50 Ebay, I think I got lucky) .....   Now I'm starting to understand why everyone says to look at NOS.  
These produce a very detailed high end - delicate.  I put them in, right side, and I have some PSVANE-UKs on the left.  The PS-UKs seem to lend weight to _everything_ and/but when paired with these Sylvania's the PS-UKs get out of the way and let these 6SN7WGTs do the delicate work.
Tried a pair of 6SN7 GTB RCA NOS bridge filament, along with these and the two NOS pairs really sounded good together, a lot of good musical texture if minus just a bit of the weight (Butter?) the PS-UKs bring to the table.  
Sylvania, very nice sounding, very nice. PS-UKs will be a mostly LEFT side players for now. They sound really good, just not particularly interesting when paired with new Tung-Sols or Eletro-Harmonix for instance.


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## rkindel

Btarr said:


> The Tung-Sols did that to me too.  The *magic* would seem to come and go.
> I just today got a pair of: *6SN7 GTB RCA NOS ,bridge filament.  *Those along with the *NOS Matched Pair CBS Hytron USA 6SN7GTB Black T Plate O Get Tubes, *and again I don't think either pair are suppose to be anything particularly amazing, but I'm having  a lot of fun this evening.  Maybe get your self some properly old, NOS tubes,  these modern tubes just tease too much.


Yesterday the tube sound appeared but only after a hour. I am going to try letting them cook a while before listening to see if that makes any difference. If that doesn’t help I will try getting a pair of NOS tubes of some sort for the right side.


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## skiroe (Sep 12, 2020)

@ Dueprocess & Rkindel--- I am intrigued by your impression of the tube mode on the Freya..  I forgot to look back in the thread and take note if you have the Plus version as it purportedly had some improvements made in the tube mode function..  although that would not necessarily equate to "best sound" mode. .  Guess its all about ones preference .    I had a Plus in here for a very short time --so short in fact that I can not really give my 2 cents on tube mode sound..  I think one of the reasons why I decided not to keep it was I thought that it ran way too hot even for a tube amp..  I have had more than a few tube amps as well as tube preamps so its not because of an unfamiliarity with tube gear ..   I think one reason possibly why  its so hot is simply due to the small footprint.  A larger aluminum chassis and heat would dissipate a bit better..  I would think..   all that being said..  Ive visited Schiit site more than a few times since then and considering trying the Plus again primarily because of its price point.  Another issue is no tape monitor which I could live without and put deck into 2nd system.   Another difficulty with going to a new preamp is coming up with so many features and functions of my Sonic Frontiers Line 1..  3 outputs for starters and plethora of inputs and full function remote with phase even.    The Line 1 is a hybrid though and have to wonder how much tube flavor is  there considering its tube section is input and output is s/s.   I have heard good things about Andy at tube services --refreshed my memory on his business seeing mention of him here..


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## rkindel

skiroe said:


> @ Dueprocess  I am intrigued by your impression of the tube mode on the Freya..  I forgot to look back in the thread and take note if you have the Plus version as it purportedly had some improvements made in the tube mode function..  although that would not necessarily equate to "best sound" mode. .  Guess its all about ones preference .    I had a Plus in here for a very short time --so short in fact that I can not really give my 2 cents on tube mode sound..  I think one of the reasons why I decided not to keep it was I thought that it ran way too hot even for a tube amp..  I have had more than a few tube amps as well as tube preamps so its not because of an unfamiliarity with tube gear ..   I think one reason possibly why  its so hot is simply due to the small footprint.  A larger aluminum chassis and heat would dissipate a bit better..  I would think..   all that being said..  Ive visited Schiit site more than a few times since then and considering trying the Plus again primarily because of its price point.  Another issue is no tape monitor which I could live without and put deck into 2nd system.   Another difficulty with going to a new preamp is coming up with so many features and functions of my Sonic Frontiers Line 1..  3 outputs for starters and plethora of inputs and full function remote with phase even.    The Line 1 is a hybrid though and have to wonder how much tube flavor is  there considering its tube section is input and output is s/s.   I have heard good things about Andy at tube services --refreshed my memory on his business seeing mention of him here..


 I have only been playing with mine for a couple of weeks so it is a Freya+. I have been clear from the start on how much I love the passive stage but I think I need to update what I have stated concerning the tube stage. My previous comments are based on the tube stage when the tubes were not performing as designed. For me, so far, the tube stage delivers its full potential far less than half the time. I have resorted to “cooking” the tubes for a while before listening. Even then, the tube magic is just a sometime thing. But when they are fully up to their game the sound is truly sublime. Then the decision between passive or tube is not easy to make. This is the kind of performance I was wishing for in my wildest dreams. I only wish I had the secret that would make those tubes sing, all the time, like the passive stage does.
 So, as a person who has past experience with tubes, do you have any advice? I can only hope that the tube success rate might improve as I put more hours on them.


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## skiroe (Sep 12, 2020)

rkindel said:


> So, as a person who has past experience with tubes, do you have any advice? I can only hope that the tube success rate might improve as I put more hours on them.


I  am unable to comment on how the Plus presented on tube mode.  I  played for a very very short time.  hours only.

   My initial response was it just did not sound good and I should of let it play at least for a week especially being I have the Melz 6sn7 equivalents --the purportedly best Melz --I dont recall if I even put them in.

   I agree with many who prefer vintage tubes despite some ravings about some of the new production tubes.   I have used new production JJ 7591 tubes in an integrated vintage I had some years ago and they were so poor in performance I thought something was wrong with the amp and sent it in to a competent tech who told me nothing wrong with the amp-- the tubes were crap.

I have had good performance with EH 300b tubes ..  but essentially stay away from new production signal or rectifier tubes.

     At any rate,  if vintage tubes dont improve on what you hear then it may just be what your tastes are which is really what we all go with in the final analysis. 

Many in this thread report very positive results with the sound  of the Plus    I wanted to make it work as well  but my big gaff was -- I did not give the Plus enough time so cant really chime in. 

I also had a Modwright LS100 in here for a short time and one time listening to a particular piece of music noticed bass bloat which has never occurred in my SF based preamp system.   That surprised me .  but then again I really did not run the LS100 for a long enough time either  to evaluate more thoroughly.    

  So is it topology design ?  tube choice---  vintage vs new production?    What about the lack of a rectifier tube in the design?   or simply a matter of personal preference.     And not to overlook  a most critical factor ----production quality of the material being played!

A part of it for me is unable to escape my long term relationship with my SF  line 1 --must be something that is keeping me. 
I think possibly more fun to focus on tube amp and not preamp.  Low power SET amps are remarkably much cooler than say push pull high power amps.   Im currently running an el84 based single ended and can run that all day esp being a Decware--very dependable.   

 Im even thinking of going to a s/s pre and  follow through with a couple of tube amps that I am on the fence about.  

It took me awhile and now remembering that a big part of not hanging on to the Plus for awhile is realizing how hot it got and being that I was wanting to replace my SF Line 1 in my main system this would be quite a hot box --a space heater of sorts --as my main system is on for almost 12 hrs daily!   thats quite a long time to run any tube gear .


----------



## Dueprocess

skiroe said:


> @ Dueprocess & Rkindel--- I am intrigued by your impression of the tube mode on the Freya..  I forgot to look back in the thread and take note if you have the Plus version as it purportedly had some improvements made in the tube mode function..  although that would not necessarily equate to "best sound" mode. .  Guess its all about ones preference .    I had a Plus in here for a very short time --so short in fact that I can not really give my 2 cents on tube mode sound..  I think one of the reasons why I decided not to keep it was I thought that it ran way too hot even for a tube amp..  I have had more than a few tube amps as well as tube preamps so its not because of an unfamiliarity with tube gear ..   I think one reason possibly why  its so hot is simply due to the small footprint.  A larger aluminum chassis and heat would dissipate a bit better..  I would think..   all that being said..  Ive visited Schiit site more than a few times since then and considering trying the Plus again primarily because of its price point.  Another issue is no tape monitor which I could live without and put deck into 2nd system.   Another difficulty with going to a new preamp is coming up with so many features and functions of my Sonic Frontiers Line 1..  3 outputs for starters and plethora of inputs and full function remote with phase even.    The Line 1 is a hybrid though and have to wonder how much tube flavor is  there considering its tube section is input and output is s/s.   I have heard good things about Andy at tube services --refreshed my memory on his business seeing mention of him here..



I moved from the original Freya to the +. I personally find the + to be an improvement; it's certainly quieter than the original, which was a welcome improvement.

I was motivated to move to the + because, as mentioned, the tube stage accounts for a minority portion of my listening (mostly JFET / Passive), and I didn't want to burn through tubes while not listening to the tube stage (for the original Freya, the tube stage is always on; for the +, the tube stage turns off when it isn't active). The lower noise floor, etc. on Freya + certainly helped me make the decision to change out my original for the new one. (Still undecided on the motorized volume control, though.)

I enjoy the tube stage, but I don't think that it's superior in terms of pure "sonic accuracy " to the JFET / passive stages. Depending on the source material and my mood, I sometimes prefer the sonic quality of the tubes (distortion and shortcomings included); other times, I find they are not quite "clean" enough (not to overuse the word "pure"). There are times, still, the tubes blow me away and leave me stunned, and in those moments I wonder why I would ever listen to the other stages. And, there are times that, when listening through the tubes, the low end seems a little uncontrolled or the sound strikes me as "grainy". I think it depends mostly on the source material (whether it caters to the strengths of the tubes... obscures the weaknesses of the tube stage, or just doesn't highlight those weaknesses, etc), but it also might depend on whether or not I'm in a mood to prioritize the qualities of the tube stage and overlook its shortcomings.

I'm glad it's there. I look forward to using it, and at times, like I said, it blows me away. But, most of my listening is done via the JFET / passive stages, and if I were asked to listen to material and evaluate it, I'd default to the JFET / passive stages (although I'd also give the tube mode a spin after).


----------



## rkindel

Dueprocess said:


> I moved from the original Freya to the +. I personally find the + to be an improvement; it's certainly quieter than the original, which was a welcome improvement.
> 
> I was motivated to move to the + because, as mentioned, the tube stage accounts for a minority portion of my listening (mostly JFET / Passive), and I didn't want to burn through tubes while not listening to the tube stage (for the original Freya, the tube stage is always on; for the +, the tube stage turns off when it isn't active). The lower noise floor, etc. on Freya + certainly helped me make the decision to change out my original for the new one. (Still undecided on the motorized volume control, though.)
> 
> ...


I completely agree with all your points. It will be interesting to see how I divide my listening once the novelty of tubes wears off. I think I will listen to the tube stage more if the tube magic was available 100% of the time and at initial turn on. Now, I have to wade through all the warm up stuff just for the possibility that the wonderfulness might show at some point.
 I have a pair of Sonus faber speakers that I have not been using due to their generally bright sound. As a experiment I hooked them up to see if tubes might make them listenable again. No joy. My Dahlquists resolve the tube magic with bold relief. The Sonus fabers didn’t seem to have the resolution to make it worth the effort. And, unfortunately, they still were too bright.


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## Randolf711

This made my day! I am running DQ 10s as well, with the crossover mod from Regnar (plus I have the Sub). I run them with mono-Vidars and they sound so glorious (I had run them with only one for a while but mono really opened everything up). Freya+ feeds them my Yggy Schiit. 


rkindel said:


> I run a pair of Dahlquist DQ10s I bought new in 1977. Mirror imaged with crossover mod.


----------



## rkindel

Randolf711 said:


> This made my day! I am running DQ 10s as well, with the crossover mod from Regnar (plus I have the Sub). I run them with mono-Vidars and they sound so glorious (I had run them with only one for a while but mono really opened everything up). Freya+ feeds them my Yggy Schiit.


I absolutely love my Dahlquists and I feel they are fully up to comparison with speakers built today. No speaker is perfect and I have been trying to deal with a slight buzz that I can hear at one particular frequency in the mid bass. Tried damping the rear grill but discovered much of it was coming from wires making contact with each other running from the exposed crossovers in the back. Still hear it on occasion but very rarely. But these have many strengths. Clarity, resolution, and imaging up the wazoo. These are great with vocals and guitar in my opinion but I don’t have to tell you any of this. These and the Freya are great together. Just need some powder to drive them for their best. I ran a Dahlquist sub with mine for years but concluded it didn’t go low enough. Replaced it with a Velodyne and have been very happy with that combo.


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## Randolf711

I love mine as well. They were left to me when my father in law passed. He and I both shared a love for audio and they are a great reminder of great times. I had a buzz too with them at one point but the largest driver had come unglued from the thick board and rattled like crazy. I just super glued them back and they’ve remained faithful! I will need to send them in one day to get redone by Regnar... The sub is very passive and quiet but I will check out the Velodyne. Do you use the passive crossover with it?

I eventually landed on the Vidars because of their excellent driving ability. Which led me to the Freya and other Schiit. The Vidars really pair perfectly with the DQ10s. When I got them all set up, the Bass came alive and everything imaged perfectly. Acoustic music is stunning. I recently picked up a DCC Cd of Joni Mitchell’s Blue and it was just insane how clear and perfect it sounded. All of that with the Freya, although I need to try some different tubes, sound amazing. 



rkindel said:


> I absolutely love my Dahlquists and I feel they are fully up to comparison with speakers built today.


----------



## rkindel

Randolf711 said:


> I love mine as well. They were left to me when my father in law passed. He and I both shared a love for audio and they are a great reminder of great times. I had a buzz too with them at one point but the largest driver had come unglued from the thick board and rattled like crazy. I just super glued them back and they’ve remained faithful! I will need to send them in one day to get redone by Regnar... The sub is very passive and quiet but I will check out the Velodyne. Do you use the passive crossover with it?
> 
> I eventually landed on the Vidars because of their excellent driving ability. Which led me to the Freya and other Schiit. The Vidars really pair perfectly with the DQ10s. When I got them all set up, the Bass came alive and everything imaged perfectly. Acoustic music is stunning. I recently picked up a DCC Cd of Joni Mitchell’s Blue and it was just insane how clear and perfect it sounded. All of that with the Freya, although I need to try some different tubes, sound amazing.


I believe Velodyne is now out of business. A good quality powered sub like REL, for instance, would do. Like most powered subs, mine has a built in crossover. The Dahlquists already go quite low so I set my crossover at about 45hz, or so, for maximum purity while just filling that lowest octave of deep bass. Doing that elevates them to the next level,really. Just make sure you find a good position in the room for it and don’t be tempted in setting the volume too high.


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## Dueprocess (Sep 18, 2020)

rkindel said:


> I believe Velodyne is now out of business. A good quality powered sub like REL, for instance, would do. Like most powered subs, mine has a built in crossover. The Dahlquists already go quite low so I set my crossover at about 45hz, or so, for maximum purity while just filling that lowest octave of deep bass. Doing that elevates them to the next level,really. Just make sure you find a good position in the room for it and don’t be tempted in setting the volume too high.



Rythmik also makes some very reasonably priced active servo-subs that perform very well (in terms of output, but more significantly speed / distortion).


----------



## tinariwen

Hey guys,

I've had my Freya Plus for about 3 months now, and pretty much been using it in buffer or tube stage only. I've got a fairly long run of cable to the speakers so figured that would be best.

Today I tried passive for the first time after reading some opinions of it on here, and noticed something odd - passive mode is actually considerably louder than buffer mode.

Is that normal? I'm sure I'd read that the buffer adds about 1db of gain, but the manual says it doesn't add anything. Even if that were the case, it shouldn't be quieter than passive, should it?

The tube mode seems to perform as expected, being louder than the other two modes. Mine came with the Tung Sold and for the most part I get that tube magic. Can be a bit hit and miss, though, sometimes sounding a bit strident in the treble, but that's another story.

My setup is Bifrost 2 feeding the Freya Plus via RCA, and then RCA on to speakers. Source volume is 100% in all instances.

Anyone else had the same experience, or is it normal?


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## rkindel

tinariwen said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> I've had my Freya Plus for about 3 months now, and pretty much been using it in buffer or tube stage only. I've got a fairly long run of cable to the speakers so figured that would be best.
> 
> ...


Yes, mine does the same. Also,I have noticed deeper bass and more dynamics with the passive stage. But the buffer stage sounds just as transparent to these ears.


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## Dueprocess (Oct 28, 2020)

rkindel said:


> Yes, mine does the same. Also,I have noticed deeper bass and more dynamics with the passive stage. But the buffer stage sounds just as transparent to these ears.



The passive stage measures considerably better than the active stage (there are a couple independent tests for Freya out there for THD, SINAD, etc.). They both have flat frequency response, so in a vacuum, bass, etc. should be the same on both stages. I believe the active stage is approx. -120db SINAD, whereas the passive mode essentially is not measurable (showing the limits of the test suite), as would be expected from a well-designed passive attenuator.

Keep in mind, while the active stage has static output impedance (600ohms? I'd need to check the site), the passive mode will have varying output impedance, depending on the level of attenuation (and your source). At maximum volume / minimum (or zero) attenuation, the output impedance should be at its lowest, with impedance increasing as attenuation is added, albeit not necessarily in a linear or consistent pattern).

If you have Freya plugged directly into your power amp, you may get changes in the frequency response produced by the power amp as you change volume using Freya's passive stage (as a result of the change in Freya's output impedance and your source's output impedance). If Freya and your power amp are not equipped to work together (i.e. if your power amp has low input impedance or has significant varying frequency response as input impedance changes), those changes in frequency response may be significant enough to be audible, or your power amp may struggle to handle the input load.

I checked w. Schiit, and they confirmed that the maximum output impedance of Freya in passive mode is approx. 5k ohms (I believe Saga is the same).

In addition, depending on your source's output voltage, you may find that, without the help of the active stage, your source struggles to drive your power amp (hence complaints from some of lack of bass in passive mode, etc.).

Keep in mind, it is not that the passive stage lacks something, it just adds nothing, so (if Freya feeds your power amp directly) you need to make sure that your source / power amps are well equipped to work together in conjunction with up to 5k ohms introduced by Freya's passive stage (depending on attenuation). Assuming they pair well, the passive stage should essentially be transparent (and your best option if true-to-source / faithful reproduction is your goal). If they don't pair well, you are likely to get better performance using the active stage, so that the output impedance is static (and low) and Freya can assist with output voltage.

(I have an active crossover between Freya and my power amps, so this issue is minimized for me. If you have an active component between Freya and your power amps, you probably don't need to worry about impedance changes using the passive stage.)


----------



## tinariwen

rkindel said:


> Yes, mine does the same. Also,I have noticed deeper bass and more dynamics with the passive stage. But the buffer stage sounds just as transparent to these ears.


Ah, that's good to know. Yeah, I thought I noticed a slight change in sound with passive compared to buffer, but I didn't know if it was just the volume difference playing tricks on me. Cheers!


----------



## rkindel

Dueprocess said:


> The passive stage measures considerably better than the active stage (there are a couple independent tests for Freya out there for THD, SINAD, etc.). They both have flat frequency response, so in a vacuum, bass, etc. should be the same on both stages. I believe the active stage is approx. -120db SINAD, whereas the passive mode essentially is not measurable (showing the limits of the test suite), as would be expected from a well-designed passive attenuator.
> 
> Keep in mind, while the active stage has static output impedance (600ohms? I'd need to check the site), the passive mode will have varying output impedance, depending on the level of attenuation (and your source). At maximum volume / minimum (or zero) attenuation, the output impedance should be at its lowest, with impedance increasing as attenuation is added, albeit not necessarily in a linear or consistent pattern).
> 
> ...


Both my Benchmark DAC and Schiit Mani drive my power amp with no audio problems using the passive stage. Absolutely no issues with weak bass that’s for sure. My power amp has a input impedance of 47000 ohms which, I have read, should mate with no issues as well. I consider my
self lucky as there was absolutely no pre planning on my part what so ever. What I ended up with, however, was the best sound that I have even heard from my system using the passive stage. Best $899 I’ve ever spent.


----------



## Dueprocess (Oct 29, 2020)

rkindel said:


> Both my Benchmark DAC and Schiit Mani drive my power amp with no audio problems using the passive stage. Absolutely no issues with weak bass that’s for sure. My power amp has a input impedance of 47000 ohms which, I have read, should mate with no issues as well. I consider my
> self lucky as there was absolutely no pre planning on my part what so ever. What I ended up with, however, was the best sound that I have even heard from my system using the passive stage. Best $899 I’ve ever spent.


At 47k ohms input impedance, you should have no issues handling Freya's passive mode / 5k attenuator at all, so I am not surprised you find the performance excellent.
Many power amps have input impedances of ~10-20k (and potentially lower, although it is considered good practice to design components with a high input impedance to avoid pairing issues), and they might struggle with the load.


----------



## Alcophone (Nov 17, 2020)

Playing with a Freya S, I suddenly found myself wondering how my subwoofer, connected via the single ended outs, is getting a signal despite me using the balanced inputs with the Freya S in passive mode.

How does that work, again?  Is it using one half of the balanced signal, or summing?

*Edit:* Answer from Schiit is "It uses one phase of the balanced signal"


----------



## Balthazar B

Hey, all. I've looked for a piece of info here and in the massive Schiit thread without success. I've got a Freya+ on the way and want to pick up some socket savers that'll fit without requiring surgery. Anyone know the exact diameter of the Freya/Freya+ tube holes? I see some recommendations on particular products from about 3 years ago...anyone have a current recommendatio for savers with good/extraordinary materials/construction?


----------



## jseymour

Balthazar B said:


> Hey, all. I've looked for a piece of info here and in the massive Schiit thread without success. I've got a Freya+ on the way and want to pick up some socket savers that'll fit without requiring surgery. Anyone know the exact diameter of the Freya/Freya+ tube holes? I see some recommendations on particular products from about 3 years ago...anyone have a current recommendatio for savers with good/extraordinary materials/construction?



These look identical to the ones I bought several years ago from The Tube Center:  https://www.partsconnexion.com/SOCKET-74489.html.  I use them in my OG Freya and they work perfectly.


----------



## Btarr

jseymour said:


> These look identical to the ones I bought several years ago from The Tube Center:  https://www.partsconnexion.com/SOCKET-74489.html.  I use them in my OG Freya and they work perfectly.


I have those and they DO work with the FREYA+.


----------



## Balthazar B

Thanks, @jseymour and @Btarr. Happen to have a set of calipers and can measure their diameter (or the diameter of the tube holes in the Freya case)?

If nobody has by then, I'll do so and post the measurement here when the Freya+ arrives next month. Cheers!


----------



## Btarr

Balthazar B said:


> Thanks, @jseymour and @Btarr. Happen to have a set of calipers and can measure their diameter (or the diameter of the tube holes in the Freya case)?
> 
> If nobody has by then, I'll do so and post the measurement here when the Freya+ arrives next month. Cheers!



No calipers here, but the SAVER is the same diameter (+/- mm) as the base of any of the 6SN7 valves I've tried in my Freya+.


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## Balthazar B (Nov 20, 2020)

Good to know. But I'm still interested in the measurement since I've seen in this forum topic that some folks have purchased octal savers that were too large to fit in the Freya -- meaning they must have been wider than most/all(?) 6SN7 valve bases. For instance, if in a fit of holiday spirit I decide to check out some TubeMonger savers, I'd want to make sure I won't have to dremel them down to size in order to use them before ordering them.

Thought of a related question: any opinions on whether it's better to have the top of the saver slightly below or slightly proud of the top of the Freya case, or doesn't it matter a whit? I've seen some variance in the vertical height of socket savers where dimensions have been published.


----------



## EELawson

Balthazar B said:


> Good to know. But I'm still interested in the measurement since I've seen in this forum topic that some folks have purchased octal savers that were too large to fit in the Freya -- meaning they must have been wider than most/all(?) 6SN7 valve bases. For instance, if in a fit of holiday spirit I decide to check out some TubeMonger savers, I'd want to make sure I won't have to dremel them down to size in order to use them before ordering them.
> 
> Thought of a related question: any opinions on whether it's better to have the top of the saver slightly below or slightly proud of the top of the Freya case, or doesn't it matter a whit? I've seen some variance in the vertical height of socket savers where dimensions have been published.


I'm very happy with the TubeMongers.  Expensive, but worth it.  I initially used cheap savers off Ebay (about $11 each from China) and 3 of the 4 broke apart inside the Freya and had to be painstakingly removed with tweezers.  
The TubeMongers are very solid and well-built.  They sit about 1/16th of an inch below the surface of the Freya for a nice reveal of the tube.


----------



## Balthazar B

EELawson said:


> I'm very happy with the TubeMongers.



How long have you had them? Are they Omron or Cinch? They claim that their "vibration reduction base" is something special; is it?

I think I saw an exchange earlier where a set purchased from TubeMonger at one time would not fit a Freya, while a set purchased there at another time did. Ergo my interest in numbers.


----------



## EELawson

Balthazar B said:


> How long have you had them? Are they Omron or Cinch? They claim that their "vibration reduction base" is something special; is it?
> 
> I think I saw an exchange earlier where a set purchased from TubeMonger at one time would not fit a Freya, while a set purchased there at another time did. Ergo my interest in numbers.


I will have to do a little research to answer you.  I've them about 1+ half years.  They are the exact width of the 6SN7 tube.  I will report back.


----------



## CouryT

jseymour said:


> These look identical to the ones I bought several years ago from The Tube Center:  https://www.partsconnexion.com/SOCKET-74489.html.  I use them in my OG Freya and they work perfectly.



For what it’s worth, I bought those same socket savers for my original Freya and put them in as soon as I got the unit. It took me a looooong time to realize they were adding a lot of noise to the Freya’s tube mode. I had assumed that the vintage tubes I was buying off eBay were all bums. They’d work fine at first and then I’d get all sorts of weird—and very loud—noise effects. After months of this (and many attempts at other solutions), I decided to remove the socket savers, which required opening up the case. Then I put in some previously noisy tubes — and now they were dead quiet. Same thing for nearly all the other tubes in my collection that I had written off as being “bad.”

Maybe I just got a defective set, but if you start hearing noisy tubes, try removing the sockets first. I’ve had no noise issues since taking them out.


----------



## Balthazar B (Nov 27, 2020)

Balthazar B said:


> Hey, all. I've looked for a piece of info here and in the massive Schiit thread without success. I've got a Freya+ on the way and want to pick up some socket savers that'll fit without requiring surgery. Anyone know the exact diameter of the Freya/Freya+ tube holes? I see some recommendations on particular products from about 3 years ago...anyone have a current recommendatio for savers with good/extraordinary materials/construction?



Well, in rereading through this topic, I saw a posting I must have missed earlier:



> For information, I checked with Schiit and the cutouts in the Freya are 1.3" = 33.02mm.



https://www.head-fi.org/threads/sch...d-tube-rolling-thread.832177/post-13582908ion w

This was referencing the original Freya. I would reasonably expect that Schiit would not have bothered changing the diameter of the tube holes, but if anyone knows otherwise...

ETA: Jason confirmed via email that the tube cutouts on the OG Freya and the Freya+ have exactly the same dimensions.


----------



## SmashBruh (Dec 27, 2020)

Been using a Freya+ for a while in combination with a Prima Luna EVO 300 and a set of Focal Aria 948s for the last few months. It sounds incredible no matter what stage I put it on, but I'm pretty sure I prefer the tube stage. I just find the harmonic qualities of tubes to be so addictive!
I have so far only rolled the quad matched JJs that came with the amp and a set of quad matched NOS black bottle Ken-Rads (I believe they're from the 40's?). To my surprise I have mostly preferred listening to the JJs! I like the extra treble detail they have and I find their sense of soundstage to be more physical than the JJs, if that makes any sense.

Does anyone have a set of obtainable NOS tubes they could recommend? I'd love to experiment further as I find it baffling that I prefer to listen to the basic set of JJs! I'm always looking to increase my sound's sense of physicallity and increase my 3D sound-stage, but more than anything I'm looking for a good tube that won't muddle up micro-details while doing so.


----------



## Mondo Caliente

I've used the original version of the Freya for a few years and still rave about it...no issues whatever (except for the lights being too bright which I fixed by removing the cover and painting the lights with a green pen...followed by nearly losing my mind trying to get the lights to line up when replacing the cover...not recommended and you can't get the cover off the "S" anyway). I landed on NOS GEs for tubes as they seem transparent, and the quad I have in there have really lasted. I also have sets of Sylvania Chrome Domes, New Tung Sols, and JJs. One of the great things about having 3 modes is that you can instantly check the tube sound for quality (although, of course, you have to compensate for the large tube gain increase).


----------



## Btarr (Dec 27, 2020)

SmashBruh said:


> Been using a Freya+ for a while in combination with a Prima Luna EVO 300 and a set of Focal Aria 948s for the last few months. It sounds incredible no matter what stage I put it on, but I'm pretty sure I prefer the tube stage. I just find the harmonic qualities of tubes to be so addictive!
> I have so far only rolled the quad matched JJs that came with the amp and a set of quad matched NOS black bottle Ken-Rads (I believe they're from the 40's?). To my surprise I have mostly preferred listening to the JJs! I like the extra treble detail they have and I find their sense of soundstage to be more physical than the JJs, if that makes any sense.
> 
> Does anyone have a set of obtainable NOS tubes they could recommend? I'd love to experiment further as I find it baffling that I prefer to listen to the basic set of JJs! I'm always looking to increase my sound's sense of physicallity and increase my 3D sound-stage, but more than anything I'm looking for a good tube that won't muddle up micro-details while doing so.



I found some NOS SYLVANIA JAN CHS 6SN7WGT and these might be what you are looking for.   Very delicate in the highs but maybe a bit thin in the lows. 
I've been running the SYLVANIAs on the right side and some new PS-VANE UK-6SN7s on the left.  The PS-VANEs seem to add weight to the lows but they allow the SYLVANIAs to color the high end. 
I also have some TUNG-SOL mica mouse ears (pictured in my avatar) they are nice too, fuller top to bottom but not as delicate in the highs.


----------



## SmashBruh (Dec 28, 2020)

Btarr said:


> I found some NOS SYLVANIA JAN CHS 6SN7WGT and these might be what you are looking for.   Very delicate in the highs but maybe a bit thin in the lows.
> I've been running the SYLVANIAs on the right side and some new PS-VANE UK-6SN7s on the left.  The PS-VANEs seem to add weight to the lows but they allow the SYLVANIAs to color the high end.


I appreciate delicate highs, so I think I'm going to give the Sylvanias a go and put them on the right paired with the Ken-Rads! The Ken-Rads have great tone and a very nice physical bass but I find the way they handle the treble to be somewhat unexciting compared to even the JJs. That said, the Ken-Rads are most certainly more resolving pretty much everywhere else and have a much nicer, (I want to say) thicker tone. One thing to note is that the JJ's are faster than the Ken-Rads. Overall, I can super see why Schiit decided to switch to them as the stock tube!


----------



## steve468

Hey all, I was wondering if I could get some advice from you fine folks. I find myself with quite the first world problem: too many amps! 

Over the quarantine, I've fallen hard down the tube rabbit hole, and now have 2 tube amps alongside my trusty Ragnarok. So my set up right now is a Gungnir multibit XLR out to Rag, and SE out to a ZMF Pendant, then Pendant's pre-outs to a Bottlehead Crack (so I'm burning Pendant's tubes every time I use the Crack). I've also got a vinyl set up shoved in there.

So I'm thinking I can use the Freya+ as the central control point, putting my two sources in and getting the 3 outputs I need, with the added benefit of getting a proper balanced signal from the Gungnir to my tube amps. 

Does anyone have some experience using headphone amps / integrated amps from the Freya+ (I'm concerned about the lack of line level outputs, though it's worked fine from Pendant to Crack), and/or does anyone have some advice as to how I can better clean up this mess?


----------



## erroneous

steve468 said:


> Hey all, I was wondering if I could get some advice from you fine folks. I find myself with quite the first world problem: too many amps!
> 
> Over the quarantine, I've fallen hard down the tube rabbit hole, and now have 2 tube amps alongside my trusty Ragnarok. So my set up right now is a Gungnir multibit XLR out to Rag, and SE out to a ZMF Pendant, then Pendant's pre-outs to a Bottlehead Crack (so I'm burning Pendant's tubes every time I use the Crack). I've also got a vinyl set up shoved in there.
> 
> ...




If I understand what you're asking, you shouldn't have a problem at all using Freya to accomplish what you'd like to. It has one set of balanced outs and two sets of RCA outs.

You can run balanced from Gungnir to Freya, and single ended/RCA from your vinyl rig to Freya.

From Freya, you can run balanced to Ragnarok, single ended to Pendant, and the other single ended to your Crack. 
This is totally normal and will sound great.


----------



## centaurojz

RoundRound said:


> Hey Guys,
> Thanks for starting this thread, great idea...
> 
> I'm looking forward to getting a Freya once they reach Schiit's UK distributor... So far they don't seem o be in a hurry...
> ...


Hi there, excuse my intersection here, I also am curios about your last question about the "degrading effect" of adding socket savers, I feel bad every time I force in-out a tube out of my Freya.....did anyone answer to it?


----------



## Balthazar B

centaurojz said:


> Hi there, excuse my intersection here, I also am curios about your last question about the "degrading effect" of adding socket savers, I feel bad every time I force in-out a tube out of my Freya.....did anyone answer to it?



On my Freya+, I can't hear any difference at all when I'm using socket savers vs. not. Main challenge is preventing them from coming out when rolling tubes (instead of the tubes alone), but it can be done.


----------



## erroneous

No difference in sound here either. I just use them because I have some fat tubes that won't even fit otherwise.


----------



## SmashBruh

Btarr said:


> I found some NOS SYLVANIA JAN CHS 6SN7WGT and these might be what you are looking for.   Very delicate in the highs but maybe a bit thin in the lows.
> I've been running the SYLVANIAs on the right side and some new PS-VANE UK-6SN7s on the left.  The PS-VANEs seem to add weight to the lows but they allow the SYLVANIAs to color the high end.
> I also have some TUNG-SOL mica mouse ears (pictured in my avatar) they are nice too, fuller top to bottom but not as delicate in the highs.




So, I've been listening to the Sylvanias for almost a month now and can confidently say that them in they were just the ticket! I put them in the input position and a pair of the Ken-Rads in the getter position and they're a match made in heaven! The Ken-Rads add extra slam and help the Sylvanias dig deeper while not getting boomy. Could not be happier! Thank you so much for the suggestion!


----------



## centaurojz

SmashBruh said:


> So, I've been listening to the Sylvanias for almost a month now and can confidently say that them in they were just the ticket! I put them in the input position and a pair of the Ken-Rads in the getter position and they're a match made in heaven! The Ken-Rads add extra slam and help the Sylvanias dig deeper while not getting boomy. Could not be happier! Thank you so much for the suggestion!


Excuse my ignorance here, but looking to the front of the unit, which pair is the input section?


----------



## SmashBruh

centaurojz said:


> Excuse my ignorance here, but looking to the front of the unit, which pair is the input section?


The right.


----------



## centaurojz

Thanks!


----------



## Btarr

centaurojz said:


> Thanks!



If it helps......   Someone told me to think about it like this: 

The Left side tubes are the "worker" tubes and the Right side tubes are the "voice" or the "Coloring" tubes.
I was asking if there was a need to have Quad-Matched tubes and the answer was "no" BUT, DO have matched pairs, LT side pair, RT side pair.  And above "worker"/"voice" explanation was the reason why.


----------



## centaurojz

Btarr said:


> If it helps......   Someone told me to think about it like this:
> 
> The Left side tubes are the "worker" tubes and the Right side tubes are the "voice" or the "Coloring" tubes.
> I was asking if there was a need to have Quad-Matched tubes and the answer was "no" BUT, DO have matched pairs, LT side pair, RT side pair.  And above "worker"/"voice" explanation was the reason why.


Kind of having tubes on your pre-amp and not so important no tubes on the separate amp, so you can still have the final "tubby" sound?


----------



## Btarr

ALSO!   If you have a few Bulleit Rye and Cokes in ya'........ Man, it ALL sounds good -  no matter the tube combo!   COVID Unemployed and got nothing to do, but listenin' to good music on a good system.


----------



## norbert2nd

Guys, I posted an article about Freya+ tube rolling and modding on my blog diyaudio.de, please have look here!
Regards, Norbert


----------



## rkindel

norbert2nd said:


> Guys, I posted an article about Freya+ tube rolling and modding on my blog diyaudio.de, please have look here!
> Regards, Norbert


Thank you so much for posting this. Very interesting. Can I assume these mods affect the sound of the tube stage only?


----------



## norbert2nd

rkindel said:


> Thank you so much for posting this. Very interesting. Can I assume these mods affect the sound of the tube stage only?


Yes, the solid state buffer is not using the WIMA capacitors or the Dale Resistors.


----------



## rkindel

I posted about problems with reliability with my new Freya+ last fall. I was experiencing a series of loud pops when using the tube stage which prompted Schiit to replace my unit. Things were fine for a few months until I started to experience sound drop outs, again while listening to the tube stage. It started with the left channel but, eventually, affected the right as well. Then I noticed that I no longer was getting the gain in volume with the tube stage. The tube sound was missing as well. The tube light was on and the tubes were glowing but it was just like I was using the passive stage. I got a return authorization and sent it in. When I got it back the work order in the box said they replaced a microprocessor. Problem solved. Fingers crossed.
 Another problem I had been dealing with since day one was inconsistent quality with sound with the tube stage. Most of the time it was nothing to write home about but, occasionally, it would sound absolutely sublime. I’ve been giving this problem some thought and I think I may have stumbled on to something. I always believed that it had something to due with burn in or break in. I would warm up the tube stage for a hour or so before listening and sometimes I thought that helped. Mostly it didn’t. When I got my preamp back I got the idea to try turning on the buffer stage in the morning when I got up. I leave it on all day until I go to bed. Bingo. Now my success rate is much better with the tubes. I don’t even have to wait. As soon as the warm up light stops blinking I’m good. to go. I’m really enjoying the tubes more now. I hope this will prove to the the solution I have been looking for. Time will tell I guess.


----------



## Balthazar B (Feb 11, 2021)

Just curious, @rkindel, have you checked the quality of the electricity you're getting from the circuit(s) to which your audio equipment is connected? Recurring problems with electronics could indicate an issue with surges, sags, and other dirty power phenomena. I do know that Michigan gets its share of thunderstorms, which never mixes well with fragile equipment.


----------



## rkindel

No, I really haven’t gone down that rabbit hole. Only thing I use is a Monster cable power strip-surge protector.


----------



## MWright

belgiangenius said:


> I'm also curious to hear impressions of these PSVANES.
> 
> I tried some PSVANE 12AU7/AT7 in a DAC once and they really, really, really, really sucked hard.
> 
> So I wouldn't go near anything of theirs with a 2000 foot poll unless I see compelling reviews here.


I wonder if it was due to not enough break-in time. I rolled all the tubes in my McIntosh 2301 monoblocks, putting in the higher end Shuguang tubes. I had been warned about break-in time, but I had no idea how much worse they were going to sound  the McIntosh stock tubes:  "really, really, really sucked hard" comes close to how bad they sounded at first. And they really sounded terrible for quite a long while too. I had to tell my wife, "Oh yee of little faith"  And yes, neither of us could stand to listen to music with these tubes for a very long time.  Then one day, "I think you should come down and listen to your new tubes today!"  So different in every area!  The Shuguang tubes can be relvelatory, on good amplifier.  There is no doubt about it.  I would assume the same thing would be true of the PSVANES.   

I still have the Shugaung tubes in the McIntosh amps, and adandoned the notion that I could ever go back to the stock tubes. The Shuguangs were that different; that much more of an improvement. 

Okay, so few months ago, I bought some headphones with a DAC and headphone amp for a friend (which included the affordable combo of Schiit Modi 3 and Vali2). I set it up with its stock tube (RCA 6BZ7) and thought it pretty well balanced, with cleanly articulated bass notes even in the midst of loud and complicated musical arrangements (not on every album but on all the albums I had come to know as well produced and well recorded albums).  Furthermore, i was surprised how close the experience was to my own solidstate amp (the RNHP), using the same Modi3 DAC and using the same RCA cables for each listening comparison.  I was so impressed that i would be curious to know if you or anyone in the forums here have listened to the top end Shuguang tubes with the Modi/Vali 2 combo. Even though the tubes are more expensive than the amp itself, I'm still thinking of buying a Shuguang tube for the Vali  and wonder what Shuguang version people have tried in their Vali2 and whether some have clocked a lot of time listening to the Shuguang. 

Any feedback appreciated.


----------



## Btarr (Mar 1, 2021)

Regarding the Left Side/Right Side Question....   
Left side tubes: Gain stage and Right side tubes: Input stage. We all agree the Input stage (RT side) gives more: flavor, color or voice relative to the Gain stage (LT side)....   But HOW MUCH more?   55% Right Side, 45% Left Side?   90% RT 10%LT ?   OR ?????  
I feel its more like 60%RT 40%LT - I've been running PSVANE UK-6SN7 or TUNG-SOL 6SN7GT Mouse Ear mica on the left and Sylvania 6SN7WGT on the right.
Am I out of my mind to think its that close?

BTW:  PSVANE UK-6SN7s take 250+ hours to burnin.


----------



## rkindel

I just read that the Schiit Loki has been undated with higher quality parts called the Loki+ mini. Never been a fan of tone controls in general but it got me thinking. One of the main problems I have with my Freya+ is, what I consider, a mid bass that is too warm and colored. Has anyone used a Loki with the tube stage for this? Might be a more direct solution than trying to address this with tube rolling. Looks like the next to bottom control is centered at 400hz which might be a bit too high for this.


----------



## rkindel (Mar 8, 2021)

*I found thisYoutube video interesting, especially the suggestion that the Freya+ can be upgraded by replacing the power cord. They substituted the Pangea AC9SE MK II for the stock power cable. I found this a bit overkill as that cable is a thick 7 gauge cable designed for high current power amplifier applications. I called the Audio Advisor help desk and they agreed that the Pangea AC14SE MK II, being designed more for sources would be a better choice. On trying it out I couldn’t say that there was a obvious difference. It’s not easy to compare as you have to listen with one cable, power down the preamp, switch cables then power up and listen again. After living with them for about a week and comparing them again I think I do hear a difference. The Pangea power cable has a slightly denser more liquid presentation. Voices seem slightly more palatable and fuller. It’s certainly not a night and day difference but I do think I would be able to tell them apart in a blind comparison.*


----------



## Randolf711

rkindel said:


> *I found thisYoutube video interesting, especially the suggestion that the Freya+ can be upgraded by replacing the power cord. They substituted the Pangea AC9SE MK II for the stock power cable. I found this a bit overkill as that cable is a thick 7 gauge cable designed for high current power amplifier applications. I called the Audio Advisor help desk and they agreed that the Pangea AC14SE MK II, being designed more for sources would be a better choice. On trying it out I couldn’t say that there was a obvious difference. It’s not easy to compare as you have to listen with one cable, power down the preamp, switch cables then power up and listen again. After living with them for about a week and comparing them again I think I do hear a difference. The Pangea power cable has a slightly denser more liquid presentation. Voices seem slightly more palatable and fuller. It’s certainly not a night and day difference but I do think I would be able to tell them apart in a blind comparison.*



It's actually not a crazy price (for the AC14), which I appreciate.


----------



## rkindel

Randolf711 said:


> It's actually not a crazy price (for the AC14), which I appreciate.


No, it’s very reasonable. The length I got was $50. Build quality is 1st rate. Even this thinner gauge is quite thick. Real eye candy.


----------



## orbitech (Apr 8, 2021)

New Freya+ owner here which came with stock Russian new production Tung Sols.Will see how it goes


----------



## RonO

I opted for the black and tan:






I had the OG Freya, and I don't recall all the reasons, hated it. Sold it, and got an XSP-1 from Emotiva, which is a fantastic solid state pre-amp. I remember reading the announcement for the freya + and thinking that they fixed all the stuff I hated. Mainly being the motorized volume, and the tube power off. I run stereo subs off the SE outputs, and the OG Freya would dump a blast into those if you powered off in tube mode.  So I had to remember to switch to jfet stage before power off.  I tried on the + and it does not pump the woofers when powered off. 

It came with JJ's, and I thought I'd get some Russian Tung-sol's, but after listening to these since last Friday, I'm in no rush.  The JJ's match up with my ears/system very well. Amp is a Rotel 1592 Mkii, and Tekton Double Impact speakers.  Subs are SVS Sealed 2000's.  I positioned this on top of the rack to let it have full air flow. 

Enjoying this very much so far! Cheers,

Ron


----------



## Zurv (May 3, 2021)

@RonO
Nice. I really enjoyed my Freya+.. but don't use it anymore (I got much costly stuff and .. hrmm.. knowing that makes me use the fancier one...)
Two suggestions,
1) replace the JJ  
Their quality control is poor it is unlikely the tubes are matched. They also don't sound great.
If you want to use a modern 6NS7 - i'd suggest the Tong-Sol tubes. (as you said you were)
*Always get your tubes from a place that tests them*. Really. It is a big deal to make sure they are quality and matched.  <--
I'd suggest tubedepot.com or upscaleaudio.com. Not ebay or amazon or some other place.
good video about tube testing (K150s.. but it applies to tubes in general)



2) if you want to get fancy with tubes. The biggest impact is the tubes on the right side. Gain tubes.

If you start tube rolling - i'll save you some time and just go right to the CBS 5692 tubes. They are amazing!
Yes, costly, but only get them for the two on the right. (again, get them from a legit place. Test and matched.)
https://upscaleaudio.com/products/cbs-hytron-5692



note on the gungnir. Your XLR output is much better than the RCA. (Also the Freya+ takes XLR input too)
So use the XLR. 
Even if you didn't use the Freya and had to end up with an RCA connection - use the XLR out. 
You don't need to go crazy. Get a bluejeans cable XLR cable or mogami. 
I super miss my full XLR chain.. but so i life


----------



## rkindel

RonO said:


> I opted for the black and tan:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is the first I’ve heard about the Freya in black. I really like the look! I did get my Mani phono stage in black and I like it in that as well. I’m anxiously waiting on the release of the Loki Maxi and it should take my Freya + stacked on top as they are supposed to be sized the same. Pretty sure I will get it in black.


----------



## rkindel

RonO said:


> I opted for the black and tan:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I just checked the Schiit website and I don’t see the black option listed. How did you order yours?


----------



## axle11

RonO said:


> I opted for the black and tan:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


‘I run stereo subs off the SE outputs, and the OG Freya would dump a blast into those if you powered off in tube mode.’

For shutdown I would recommend turning off power amp(s) and powered subwoofers off before turning Freya off.


----------



## Balthazar B

rkindel said:


> I just checked the Schiit website and I don’t see the black option listed. How did you order yours?



If you had a normal one on backorder, Jason said to call and let them know you'd accept a black one in lieu of silver. It may have been a one time opportunity because of some blemished cases that had accumulated. But you could still try calling if you're in the market for a Freya+.


----------



## DrJam

RonO said:


> I opted for the black and tan:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I run an OG Freya and Vidar and still love it.  I run stereo SE from Freya to a single Rythmik sub (with stereo in).  If I power off the Freya first it will give a pop through the mains, but if I power off the Vidar first then Freya I don't hear any pop through anything, not even the sub (which I keep set to auto-on.)  Also, I'm always in tube mode on Freya and don't change it for power off, so I wonder what's different between our systems such that you get a pop in the sub and I don't?

While it may be a bit risky, I've had good luck on ebay.  Have a collection of RCA, Sylvania, Raytheon, GE, and RCA.  They all sound better than the stock Russian tubes I received with Freya, but admittedly I haven't tried those in quite a while.  The only problem I've had is that one of the RCA tubes went bad after a few weeks, but that's not a bad percentage on tubes that are 55-75 years old.


----------



## rkindel

Balthazar B said:


> If you had a normal one on backorder, Jason said to call and let them know you'd accept a black one in lieu of silver. It may have been a one time opportunity because of some blemished cases that had accumulated. But you could still try calling if you're in the market for a Freya+.


If that is the case, you probably have a collectors item.


----------



## Paladin79

Zurv said:


> @RonO
> Nice. I really enjoyed my Freya+.. but don't use it anymore (I got much costly stuff and .. hrmm.. knowing that makes me use the fancier one...)
> Two suggestions,
> 1) replace the JJ
> ...



I run the CBS/Hytron 5692's myself on the right side and often Melz 1578's from 1963 on the left. I was fortunate enough to buy enough of the Melz to do all matching myself, I even got quads from the large group I ordered. Most all are sold now except for some I kept for myself but they are wonderful in amps requiring amps using a single driver tube such as those I designed myself.   
 Just beware, some of the older tubes, especially Russian made, have issues with solder inside the pins so I generally replace that.


----------



## PoMarantz (May 4, 2021)

rkindel said:


> I just checked the Schiit website and I don’t see the black option listed. How did you order yours?


..Black units are available....I put in an order to Schiit yesterday (but of course before I ordered the Freya + I put an order in for Two Pairs of NOS, Matched, Tested, General Electric GE 6SN7 6SN7GTB Vacuum Tubes Valves with Copper Posts, like a good audioholic! 😀)...There is currently a 6-week backlog on The Freyas....but... a few hours after I placed my order Jennifer from Schiit sent me an eMail asking if I wanted a black model and if so, it would ship IMMEDIATELY. ...but...Jennifer sent me no photo and there is still nothing on the website??? 😲...So I found you guys here, and was able to see Ron O's photo of the black model.. I immediately jetted off an eMail to Jennifer at Schiit with a big giant "YES"! 👍🏼😎
Now my only issue is will my tubes or my Freya get here first! 😬...well...also...I have another unknown...will my 40-Year-Old Bob Carver C-500: 250wpc@8ohms Amp (yes...I am the original owner), fire up my Dynaudios with the Freya steering it? I did some simple testing and the caps test out on The Carver as OK, and they are not leaking...so...I have my fingers crossed...otherwise it will be a 4-5 month wait on the amp refurbish. We'll see!


----------



## RonO

I came across the same note from Jason in a different thread, about the availability of the black model.  I went and looked at the order form, I didn't remember the option.  Anyhow I emailed over to orders@ and just said I was fine with black.  I was about 4 or 5 weeks into the wait already.  Besides, all my other stuff is black components aside from my DAC, and I thought the stack might look good with the opposing colorway.  They literally shipped next day after my email. 

I appreciate all the feedback from everyone.  I do actually run everything balanced on my system, and the funny thing is I already run the cables that were suggested. All my XLR's are mogami with neutrik connectors from Markertek (pro audio), and my turntable and digital cables are all blue jeans varieties.  

> PoMarantz, I've got an old Carver also, an M-400 cube that ran for over 30 years.  The last cycle of use was as a subwoofer amp for some passive SVS cylinders.  It finally let go, but I still have it, because it was such an unusual design, and served so well.  I'll have to google the C-500, as I'm curious if it's the same model my oldest brother has.  Whatever the model he has actually still works!


----------



## PoMarantz (May 4, 2021)

RonO said:


> I came across the same note from Jason in a different thread, about the availability of the black model.  I went and looked at the order form, I didn't remember the option.  Anyhow I emailed over to orders@ and just said I was fine with black.  I was about 4 or 5 weeks into the wait already.  Besides, all my other stuff is black components aside from my DAC, and I thought the stack might look good with the opposing colorway.  They literally shipped next day after my email.
> 
> I appreciate all the feedback from everyone.  I do actually run everything balanced on my system, and the funny thing is I already run the cables that were suggested. All my XLR's are mogami with neutrik connectors from Markertek (pro audio), and my turntable and digital cables are all blue jeans varieties.
> 
> > PoMarantz, I've got an old Carver also, an M-400 cube that ran for over 30 years.  The last cycle of use was as a subwoofer amp for some passive SVS cylinders.  It finally let go, but I still have it, because it was such an unusual design, and served so well.  I'll have to google the C-500, as I'm curious if it's the same model my oldest brother has.  Whatever the model he has actually still works!


Yes...I turned it on and tweaked the volume knobs, no smoke 😎 and no cracklings...so the pots seem good. This was a normal solid state amp...not one of the crazy designs....i had a holographic pre-amp, but not the amp. My Freya shipped today and so did my vintage tubes!  If the Carver is working the Freya should be the perfect modern preamp for it, I am thinking. The C-500 has Sideways cascading red LEDs instead of meters. Was really advanced for that era. I am doing this because I really want to try pumping some raw power thru my brand new DynAudio Contour 20s...I am curious tohear the difference between my Marantz and the Freya/Carver combo....
I also have an 18WPC Yaqin MC-550B 300B tube amp that I run thru my speakers, too. Variety is the spice of life.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/AnXRtxc58vhYEE4v6 (beauty shot I took of my Yaqin).


----------



## rkindel

PoMarantz said:


> ..Black units are available....I put in an order to Schiit yesterday (but of course before I ordered the Freya + I put an order in for Two Pairs of NOS, Matched, Tested, General Electric GE 6SN7 6SN7GTB Vacuum Tubes Valves with Copper Posts, like a good audioholic! 😀)...There is currently a 6-week backlog on The Freyas....but... a few hours after I placed my order Jennifer from Schiit sent me an eMail asking if I wanted a black model and if so, it would ship IMMEDIATELY. ...but...Jennifer sent me no photo and there is still nothing on the website??? 😲...So I found you guys here, and was able to see Ron O's photo of the black model.. I immediately jetted off an eMail to Jennifer at Schiit with a big giant "YES"! 👍🏼😎
> Now my only issue is will my tubes or my Freya get here first! 😬...well...also...I have another unknown...will my 40-Year-Old Bob Carver C-500: 250wpc@8ohms Amp (yes...I am the original owner), fire up my Dynaudios with the Freya steering it? I did some simple testing and the caps test out on The Carver as OK, and they are not leaking...so...I have my fingers crossed...otherwise it will be a 4-5 month wait on the amp refurbish. We'll see!


Congratulations on scoring your black Freya. I run mine through a vintage Adcom GFA 5500 and they sound great together. Did have it recapped a few years ago. I think they must have increased the bias as well as it runs much hotter now, but sound it die for. Where dI’d you get your GE tubes?


----------



## PoMarantz (May 5, 2021)

R...I got my tubes from Lowtechelec on ETSY....He seems legit....paid $95 for all 4 shipped. Seems OK...It’s a LOT cheaper than 300B tubes! 😎
I think that the black Freya is stylin' with the silver controls! Are the ends of the box silver, too? I see that they do that with some of their models. I have a Marantz SR6015 which puts out 110wpc @8ohms....the DynAudios sound REALLY good,  but these speakers are 4 ohm load....some reviewers say the Dynaudios open up with some power...so I think that The Freya and The Carver should be interesting. Hell...the speakers aren't even broken in yet and I have an auxillary set-up and tubes coming!!! 😂😂😂This is all good fun and enjoyment.


----------



## rkindel

PoMarantz said:


> R...I got my tubes from Lowtechelec on ETSY....He seems legit....paid $95 for all 4 shipped. Seems OK...It’s a LOT cheaper than 300B tubes! 😎
> I think that the black Freya is stylin' with the silver controls! Are the ends of the box silver, too? I see that they do that with some of their models. I have a Marantz SR6015 which puts out 110wpc @8ohms....the DynAudios sound REALLY good,  but these speakers are 4 ohm load....some reviewers say the Dynaudios open up with some power...so I think that The Freya and The Carver should be interesting. Hell...the speakers aren't even broken in yet and I have an auxillary set-up and tubes coming!!! 😂😂😂This is all good fun and enjoyment.


The sides and back panel are both grey. My Freya is my only brushed aluminum component, all the rest are black. I’m OK with that as the preamp is really the heart of the system so I kind of like having it stand out from everything else. As a side note, I recently was reading issue 116 of The Absolute Sound that contains a review of Bob Carvers Sunfire Classic Tube Preamplifer. Issue was from February 1999. What a hoot. He came right out and stated accuracy was not a design goal. He just wanted it to sound good. It even had a line level input that RIAA equalized the input and attenuated it so you can run it into the MM phono input for RIAA EQ back to flat. He felt that records sound the way they do because of the RIAA and it’s inverse and all the amplifying that goes into the process. Definitely someone who follows this own path.


----------



## nanosword

Hi,
Excuse me for the question, I am very beginner and do not know if these tubes are working on schiit freya.

 2x Tung-Sol 5998 power +  2x 1MP JAN CTL- 6C8G VT163 Tungsol Black .


----------



## RonO

Freya uses 6SN7 and variants. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6SN7

Wikipedia has a list of a lot of variants, but still you may need to verify that these will work in place of 6sn7. I recall 5998's from Bottlehead Crack experience I have, it's a 6080 variant, and would not work to my knowledge.


----------



## PoMarantz

nanosword said:


> Hi,
> Excuse me for the question, I am very beginner and do not know if these tubes are working on schiit freya.
> 
> 2x Tung-Sol 5998 power +  2x 1MP JAN CTL- 6C8G VT163 Tungsol Black .


I took delivery of the black Freya this week...It is beautiful! Better choice for me!...and II also have some NOS GE tubes to roll...I have not implemented the pre-amp yet...as I am working thru some logistics issues. I planned on using The Freya with my 40-year-old Bob Carver C-500 Amp. That's at 250wpc@8ohms! It has not been used for over 30 years..and I fired it up today using the pre-outs from my Marantz AVR...It sounds great! DEFINITELY put a smile on my face!...Running with the original capacitors. Go figure. I had a repair/engineer tell me that most likely it would be fine...("experts" were telling me: "No Way!” LOL!).
 Can't wait to hear The Freya tube section running this powerhouse amp.  I have some logistics to sort out ...but maybe this weekend. We'll see!


----------



## RonO

One week ago today, I received a matched quad of the new Russian mfg. Tung-sol 6sn7gtb's.  I listened to those for 6 days, and found they have a lot more detail than the JJ stock tubes.  With the JJ quad, I thought there was a bit of roll off on the highs, but it wasn't horrible. Switching to JFET always reveals this.  So after the past week, last night, I rolled the JJ's in the left hand slots, and am trying this out now.  It retained the clearer sound of the Tung-sol, but is just a little different sounding. More tooby!  I'm going to leave it like this all week and see what I think next weekend.


----------



## PoMarantz

Hey Ron....Jeez...I FINALLY got The Freya+ up and running yesterday, as my Marantz SACD Network player finally arrived...and that is my source for this set-up! I have it feeding into The Freya+ and the Freya+ is hooked up to my Bob Carver (it's STILL working! LOL!). Am running a pair DynAudio Contour 20s from the amp. I am so tickled to have The Freya!...it gives some nice options for different sound I actually like the leanness of the solid state for some of the source material that I am playing. THAT surprised me!...so COOL! So far I have just been using the stock tubes (I am a little overwhelmed with all this new and old gear up and running!), but this weekend I plan to use a set of NOS GE tubes in The Freya+. I REALLY love the look of the black Freya with the silver accents...It is super cool. 😎 I will report back about the tubes....


----------



## rkindel

PoMarantz said:


> Hey Ron....Jeez...I FINALLY got The Freya+ up and running yesterday, as my Marantz SACD Network player finally arrived...and that is my source for this set-up! I have it feeding into The Freya+ and the Freya+ is hooked up to my Bob Carver (it's STILL working! LOL!). Am running a pair DynAudio Contour 20s from the amp. I am so tickled to have The Freya!...it gives some nice options for different sound I actually like the leanness of the solid state for some of the source material that I am playing. THAT surprised me!...so COOL! So far I have just been using the stock tubes (I am a little overwhelmed with all this new and old gear up and running!), but this weekend I plan to use a set of NOS GE tubes in The Freya+. I REALLY love the look of the black Freya with the silver accents...It is super cool. 😎 I will report back about the tubes....


Your Freya will sound even better as it burns in. Took my tube stage a couple on months to sound it’s best. I turned mine
 on in the morning on buffer stage and left in on all day. I love the 3 different flavors. My default is passive but buffer is great for just a little more weight. Really great with CDs that have that dry lean low end. When it matures, tubes are great when you just want a bit of that bass bloom and mid range magic. I am forever entertained with this outstanding preamp.


----------



## FredoIsFishing

Just ordered a Freya+ from Schiit’s b-stock list. There is another one left.


----------



## thefitz

I got a C-stock original Freya from Schiit last week. The manual mentions that it won't "convert single ended to balanced" without being in tube mode, yet I can output my single ended phono to the XLR jacks in all modes. What's that about?


----------



## cakewalk101

RonO said:


> One week ago today, I received a matched quad of the new Russian mfg. Tung-sol 6sn7gtb's.  I listened to those for 6 days
> 
> 
> , and found they have a lot more detail than the JJ stock tubes.  With the JJ quad, I thought there was a bit of roll off on the highs, but it wasn't horrible. Switching to JFET always reveals this.  So after the past week, last night, I rolled the JJ's in the left hand slots, and am trying this out now.  It retained the clearer sound of the Tung-sol, but is just a little different sounding. More tooby!  I'm going to leave it like this all week and see what I think next weekend.


Interesting!  I just received my Freya+ from Schiit yesterday and the four tubes that came with are those!


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## cakewalk101

Question for all Freya+ owners and/or Schiit product experts:  anyone know the difference between Freya+ version 1.01 and 1.00?  Must be minor is my assumption but curious nonetheless.  I noticed mine was 1.01 when I unpacked it.


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## rkindel

cakewalk101 said:


> Question for all Freya+ owners and/or Schiit product experts:  anyone know the difference between Freya+ version 1.01 and 1.00?  Must be minor is my assumption but curious nonetheless.  I noticed mine was 1.01 when I unpacked it.


News to me that there was a version 1.01. I will check mine when I replace my tubes.


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## rkindel

I saw interview on YouTube yesterday where they mentioned that they may bring back the Freya S temporarily as Schiit is having a hard time getting supplies of the 6SN7 tube for Freya +.


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## PoMarantz

I did not know there were version numbers…I purchased about a month ago and there was no wait if I took a black and silver unit. I think that it is smarter looking than the silver! 😊


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## schneiderdn1974 (Jun 17, 2021)

Just noticed that Schiit recently updated the Freya+ page on their website. Price has increased to $949, and there is now an option to ship without tubes (lowers price to $849). I'm assuming they may have made "no tubes" an option because they are having trouble keeping 6SN7 tubes in stock (as rkindel mentions above). The black version also now shows up as the default/main photo when you access the Freya+ listing. https://www.schiit.com/products/freya-1


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## PoMarantz

The black one is sah-weet! 😎


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## schneiderdn1974 (Jun 18, 2021)

I finally made the decision to purchase a Freya+ and placed my order on Sunday 06/13. Schitt sent me a shipment notification the next day (Monday 06/14) and the unit arrived this morning with four Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB tubes (note: I purchase one in black, so I'm assuming Schiit currently has these in stock). My current system consists of all Schiit components in a fully balanced setup: Bifrost 2 > Freya+ (previously Jotunheim 2) > Aegir (x2 as balanced mono blocks) > KEF LS50 Meta + dual REL T/7X subs.

Although I can't comment on the specific sound signature intricacies of the Tung-Sols yet (i.e., I've only been running the Freya+ for about an hour), what I can say is that right out of the box (w/tube output stage engaged), it immediately provides a much wider/deeper 3D soundstage and greatly enhances overall dynamics (i.e., brings the music to life) compared to running the same setup with the Jotunheim 2 as the preamp. Similar to my tube headphone amps, instruments sound more lifelike/natural, and the music is more engaging overall.

So, . . . two HUGE thumbs up so far!! Although my system sounded quite good/clean/accurate with the Jotunheim 2 (no complaints), the Freya+ with tubes engaged is the icing on the cake. A BIG thanks to Schiit for designing such great products!!


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## richard_hing (Jun 22, 2021)

I recently purchased a Freya + as a B-stock item, and it arrived within a week of ordering the preamp. I just couldn't wait the long lead time at the time for a new unit. Anyway, I can't find any blemishes on the chassis and it was packed like a brand new unit with what looks like a new quartet of JJ 6SN7 tubes. It must have been a return.

Instead of using the stock JJ 6SN7's, I installed two matched OS GE gray plate side flat D getter 6SN7GTB tubes in the differential voltage gain positions (right side) and two matched new production Tung Sol 6SN7 tubes in the output buffer positions (left side). I initially used octal socket savers from Eurotubes in Portland, OR to elevate the tubes above the chassis to keep the chassis from any additional heat radiating from the tubes. Later on, I took them out as most of the heat generated using the Freya + in tube mode radiates from the regulated power supply underneath the top cover, and not from the tubes themselves.

For connections, I wanted full balanced connections from my DAC to my power amplifier. I used two pairs of DIY Mogami 2549/Switchcraft XLR balanced cables to connect my SMSL SU-8 Version 2 DAC to the Freya +, and the Freya + to my Pass DIY Aleph J Class A power amp that drives my modified Klipsch Forte II speakers.

I have a Raspberry Pi 4 running Volumio connected via USB to my SMSL SU-8 DAC. I started off with the Freya + running in the differential JFET buffer mode, and I really like the clarity and large, deep soundstage. the bass response is very good and I really appreciate the black background with the all-balanced connections. Operating the Freya + with the nice metal bodied remote is very straightforward. I am not sure why some people have complained about the clicking noise of the 128-step volume attenuator. I found that it works very well with excellent channel balance. Overall, the differential JFET buffer mode presents a musical presentation with great tonality, timing, and great detail.

After running about two hours, I switched the Freya + into differential tube mode, and the sound was initially a little edgy in the upper midrange with some sibilance, but over the course of 30-60 minutes, the sound smoothed out significantly. The soundstage started to open up to extend beyond my speakers side-to-side and well beyond the back wall. The tone took on a creamier richness if I can call it that. As others have said, the Freya + in tube mode will get warm--literally. I could place my hand over the power supply area where most of the the heat is emanating and keep it there, so it wasn't scorching hot, but definitely warm. But then, I also have a Pass DIY Aleph J with some hefty heat sinks radiating a lot of heat too. The combination of the Freya + driving my Pass DIY Aleph J sounds beautiful. I can play anything from blues to jazz, to rock to symphonic classical, and the music is so engaging and organic.

I have listened to lots of vinyl playing on my Denon DJ VL12 Prime direct drive turntable connected to my Audio Research PH5 tube phono stage and the Freya +. It just gets better with an analog source. Separation between performers is excellent and the fine detail and tonality of the music comes through very clearly. I hate to say it, but music sounds better playing through the Freya + compared to my Audio Research LS7 tube line stage using ARC-matched and tested 6922 tubes. With the balanced connections, I have a black background, and maybe this is what allows me to hear things in recordings I hadn't heard before. Maybe it's because the LS7 only has single-ended RCA connections.  I also have a refurbished McIntosh MC240 tube power amp to connect to the Freya + using RCA single ended interconnects. I have yet to try that combination.

In my experience, the sound really settled in nicely after 20+ hours of cumulative playing time. The jury is still out on long term reliability. For now, I have to say I am very impressed with the build quality, the Schiit aesthetics, and more importantly, what I am hearing from this $899 preamp.


----------



## rkindel

richard_hing said:


> I recently purchased a Freya + as a B-stock item, and it arrived within a week of ordering the preamp. I just couldn't wait the long lead time at the time for a new unit. Anyway, I can't find any blemishes on the chassis and it was packed like a brand new unit with what looks like a new quartet of JJ 6SN7 tubes. It must have been a return.
> 
> Instead of using the stock JJ 6SN7's, I installed two matched OS GE gray plate side flat D getter 6SN7GTB tubes in the differential voltage gain positions (right side) and two matched new production Tung Sol 6SN7 tubes in the output buffer positions (left side). I initially used octal socket savers from Eurotubes in Portland, OR to elevate the tubes above the chassis to keep the chassis from any additional heat radiating from the tubes. Later on, I took them out as most of the heat generated using the Freya + in tube mode radiates from the regulated power supply underneath the top cover, and not from the tubes themselves.
> 
> ...


Richard- My experience was that my Freya tube stage took months to finally deliver its best sound. So, I say, the best is yet to come. Passive stage was good from the get go.


----------



## davidflas

I've been thinking about adding a Freya+ to my system for a while, but have been reading that the tubes are becoming difficult to find. Is this a temporary situation related the supply chain disruptions due to COVID 19, or something more permanent?


----------



## richard_hing

rkindel said:


> Richard- My experience was that my Freya tube stage took months to finally deliver its best sound. So, I say, the best is yet to come. Passive stage was good from the get go.


Thanks, I’ve had the Freya + now for two weeks and I agree that the preamp is sounding better with more play time. 


davidflas said:


> I've been thinking about adding a Freya+ to my system for a while, but have been reading that the tubes are becoming difficult to find. Is this a temporary situation related the supply chain disruptions due to COVID 19, or something more permanent?


I think the availability of NOS 6SN7 tubes is harder to come by, but if you shop wisely and contact reputable sellers like Brent Jesse and eBay sellers with great feedback you can still find good testing and matched pairs of 6SN7GTB tubes. The pair of GE’s that I bought only costs $34 with shipping and they tested strong and sound great.

I recommend the Freya +. Even with the price increase, it is still a bargain for a balanced preamp.


----------



## thefitz

I got a C-stock OG Freya and the price was right, but I do wish I could "turn off" the tubes. That's not a $300 upgrade for me, but it would be nice.


----------



## centaurojz

richard_hing said:


> Thanks, I’ve had the Freya + now for two weeks and I agree that the preamp is sounding better with more play time.
> 
> I think the availability of NOS 6SN7 tubes is harder to come by, but if you shop wisely and contact reputable sellers like Brent Jesse and eBay sellers with great feedback you can still find good testing and matched pairs of 6SN7GTB tubes. The pair of GE’s that I bought only costs $34 with shipping and they tested strong and sound great.
> 
> I recommend the Freya +. Even with the price increase, it is still a bargain for a balanced preamp.


I am curious, I've been thinking in getting the 6SN7GTB matched pair from Ebay, what are your sound impressions after switching these on your unit?. I still have the originals from Schiit.


----------



## richard_hing

centaurojz said:


> I am curious, I've been thinking in getting the 6SN7GTB matched pair from Ebay, what are your sound impressions after switching these on your unit?. I still have the originals from Schiit.


As Nike says, “Just Do It.”


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## schneiderdn1974 (Jun 23, 2021)

davidflas said:


> I've been thinking about adding a Freya+ to my system for a while, but have been reading that the tubes are becoming difficult to find. Is this a temporary situation related the supply chain disruptions due to COVID 19, or something more permanent


As long as you're okay running new production 6SN7 tubes (e.g., Tung Sol, Electro-Harmonix, JJ Electronic, etc.), they currently aren't difficult to find. If you prefer "New Old Stock (NOS)" tubes, it's more of a hit-or-miss game, depending on how much you're willing to spend and who you trust (i.e., online retailers vs. eBay, etc.).

My Freya+ came with four new production Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB tubes and I enjoy their sound signature. However, since tubes do eventually wear out (and prices only seem to be increasing), I went ahead an ordered eight additional gain matched Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB tubes from vivatubes.com so I have plenty of backup ($258 for eight tubes = $32.25/tube): https://www.vivatubes.com/search.php?search_query=6SN7&section=product

As a side note, I've purchased tubes a number of times from both www.vivatubes.com and www.thetubestore.com and consider both to be reputable online retailers, . . . . www.tubedepot.com is another online retailer that lots of people seem to like/recommend. All three retailers carry both new production and NOS tubes. I hope this helps.


----------



## davidflas

schneiderdn1974 said:


> As long as you're okay running new production 6SN7 tubes (e.g., Tung Sol, Electro-Harmonix, JJ Electronic, etc.), they currently aren't difficult to find. If you prefer "New Old Stock (NOS)" tubes, it's more of a hit or miss game, depending on how much you're willing to spend and who you trust (i.e., online retailers vs. eBay, etc.).
> 
> My Freya+ came with four new production Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB tubes and I enjoy their sound signature. However, since tubes do eventually wear out (and prices only seem to be increasing), I went ahead an ordered eight additional gain matched Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB tubes from vivatubes.com so I have plenty of backup ($258 for eight tubes = $32.25/tube): https://www.vivatubes.com/search.php?search_query=6SN7&section=product
> 
> As a side note, I've purchased tubes a number of times from both www.vivatubes.com and www.thetubestore.com and consider both to be reputable online retailers, . . . . www.tubedepot.com is another online retailer that lots of people seem to like/recommend. All three retailers carry both new production and NOS tubes. I hope this helps.


Thanks for the response, it helps a lot.


----------



## rkindel

schneiderdn1974 said:


> I finally made the decision to purchase a Freya+ and placed my order on Sunday 06/13. Schitt sent me a shipment notification the next day (Monday 06/14) and the unit arrived this morning with four Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB tubes (note: I purchase one in black, so I'm assuming Schiit currently has these in stock). My current system consists of all Schiit components in a fully balanced setup: Bifrost 2 > Freya+ (previously Jotunheim 2) > Aegir (x2 as balanced mono blocks) > KEF LS50 Meta + dual REL T/7X subs.
> 
> Although I can't comment on the specific sound signature intricacies of the Tung-Sols yet (i.e., I've only been running the Freya+ for about an hour), what I can say is that right out of the box (w/tube output stage engaged), it immediately provides a much wider/deeper 3D soundstage and greatly enhances overall dynamics (i.e., brings the music to life) compared to running the same setup with the Jotunheim 2 as the preamp. Similar to my tube headphone amps, instruments sound more lifelike/natural, and the music is more engaging overall.
> 
> So, . . . two HUGE thumbs up so far!! Although my system sounded quite good/clean/accurate with the Jotunheim 2 (no complaints), the Freya+ with tubes engaged is the icing on the cake. A BIG thanks to Schiit for designing such great products!!


I am very curious about the sound of the Aegir amp in mono mode. Most reviews go into detail about design but are skimpy when it comes to describing the actual sound quality. Would you be so kind to give your impressions as a owner?


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## schneiderdn1974 (Jun 24, 2021)

rkindel said:


> I am very curious about the sound of the Aegir amp in mono mode. Most reviews go into detail about design but are skimpy when it comes to describing the actual sound quality. Would you be so kind to give your impressions as a owner?


Hi rkindel, . . . before purchasing the two Aegir's, I was powering my LS50 Meta speakers with an older two-channel, solid-state Carver A400X (i.e., 200 w/channel unbalanced) amplifier that I purchased new in the mid-1990s. Although the Carver amp had plenty of headroom and had no problems driving the LS50 speakers, when I switched to the two Aegir's (running as balanced mono blocks) the improvements to sound quality were immediately noticeable.

Compared to the Carver, the Aegir's sound signature is much more natural (i.e., instruments sound more lifelike), the sound stage was more three dimensional (i.e., compared to the more forward/flat 2D sound from the Carver), and the left/right separation was much more defined (i.e., no surprise since the Aegir's are running as balanced mono blocks).

I'm not an expert when it comes to explaining the intricacies of amplifier sound signatures, but when run as separate L/R mono blocks, I can confirm they have plenty of power/headroom to push my 85db (4 ohm) LS50 speakers to "live presentation" volume levels without loosing their "Class-A bias" sound signature. In combination with the Schiit Freya+, I couldn't be happier with the two Aegir amps. As a sidenote, I also have two REL T/7x subs connected to the Aegir amps (via REL's "high-level" interconnect) and they work perfectly together.

If you haven't seen these already, the following YouTube "Aegir" videos are worth watching and provide a bit more info regarding the Aegir's sound quality:


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## PoMarantz (Jun 24, 2021)

schneiderdn1974 said:


> Hi rkindel, . . . before purchasing the two Aegir's, I was powering my LS50 Meta speakers with an older two-channel, solid-state Carver A400X (i.e., 200 w/channel unbalanced) amplifier that I purchased new in the mid-1990s. Although the Carver amp had plenty of headroom and had no problems driving the LS50 speakers, when I switched to the two Aegir's (running as balanced mono blocks) the improvements to sound quality were immediately noticeable.
> 
> Compared to the Carver, the Aegir's sound signature is much more natural (i.e., instruments sound more lifelike), the sound stage was more three dimensional (i.e., compared to the more forward/flat 2D sound from the Carver), and the left/right separation was much more defined (i.e., no surprise since the Aegir's are running as balanced mono blocks).
> 
> ...



Hmmmm…I am on a similar pathway…I have my Freya + driving my 40-year-old Bob Carver C-500 with its original capacitors. You are more proof that modern amps with balanced lines may be a big step up. I have decided to buy a pair of Kinki Studio EX-B7 Monoblocs to replace my Carver amp... I am pretty excited to hear improvements like the ones you are describing coming out of my Dynaudio Contour 20 Speakers.
…. Plus, I will be able to note that I am listening to some Kinki-Schiit!😎


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## schneiderdn1974

PoMarantz said:


> Hmmmm…I am on a similar pathway…I have my Freya + driving my 40-year-old Bob Carver C-500 with its original capacitors. You are more proof that modern amps with balanced lines may be a big step up. I have decided to buy a pair of Kinki Studio EX-B7 Monoblocs to replace my Carver amp... I am pretty excited to hear improvements like the ones you are describing coming out of my Dynaudio Contour 20 Speakers.
> …. Plus, I will be able to note that I am listening to some Kinki-Schiit!😎


Hey PoMarantz, . . . yes, I was in the same boat. I purchased my Carver 25+ years ago and always thought of it as my "end game" amp (i.e., able to make any speaker sing). However, after realizing that we were both getting old, I decided it may be time to consider some new gear. I was also swayed a bit by videos like the one from Paul at PSAudio (below), even though I recognized he's in the business of selling new equipment.  I'm guessing you'll be thrilled with the EX-B7s.


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## PoMarantz (Jun 25, 2021)

schneiderdn1974 said:


> Hey PoMarantz, . . . yes, I was in the same boat. I purchased my Carver 25+ years ago and always thought of it as my "end game" amp (i.e., able to make any speaker sing). However, after realizing that we were both getting old, I decided it may be time to consider some new gear. I was also swayed a bit by videos like the one from Paul at PSAudio (below), even though I recognized he's in the business of selling new equipment.  I'm guessing you'll be thrilled with the EX-B7s.



Yeah...I am "vintage" like my amp (original purchaser in the late 70's early 80's. It's too long ago to remember when. LOL!)...I have my covid shots...but I am not as old as Paul. I think that he is giving some good info...and convincing me not to spend the $500 refurbing my Carver (which I had planned to do after I get the EX-B7 Monoblocs). Mostly for nostalgic reasons I guess...Funny how we attach to things!
Have you rolled any NOS tubes in your Freya? (I see that you are stocked up on the stock tubes!  ).
My Freya Plus came with the JJ Tubes (photo attached), but I am now running it with some NOS GE Tubes that I bought on Etsy.


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## rkindel

schneiderdn1974 said:


> Hi rkindel, . . . before purchasing the two Aegir's, I was powering my LS50 Meta speakers with an older two-channel, solid-state Carver A400X (i.e., 200 w/channel unbalanced) amplifier that I purchased new in the mid-1990s. Although the Carver amp had plenty of headroom and had no problems driving the LS50 speakers, when I switched to the two Aegir's (running as balanced mono blocks) the improvements to sound quality were immediately noticeable.
> 
> Compared to the Carver, the Aegir's sound signature is much more natural (i.e., instruments sound more lifelike), the sound stage was more three dimensional (i.e., compared to the more forward/flat 2D sound from the Carver), and the left/right separation was much more defined (i.e., no surprise since the Aegir's are running as balanced mono blocks).
> 
> ...



Thank you so much for taking the time to reply. I have no real issues with my present power amp but I always wonder if it might be the weak link in my system. I will never know unless I actually get something else to try. That’s the way it worked with my Freya+. I was pretty happy until I heard what was contaminating my sound stream before I made the switch to the Freya.


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## thefitz (Jun 25, 2021)

How would we describe the sound of the stock JJ tubes?

I ask this because I find them quite "spitty" or "zazzy" given my setup, but HiFiMAN cans can get that way. Running in passive/JFET, cymbals and such aren't as fatiguing, but the presentation is quite different.

I ordered some Sylvania 6SN7GTB tubes that are en route, just to get my feet wet, but I'm wondering "how we score" the stock JJ tubes as far as a sound signature goes, and perhaps I'm looking for a suggestion on nice, gooey tubes.

(I don't give a crap about NOS. It's so counterintuitive to the rest of the voodoo magic sauce in hifi audio. Speakers need to break in... headphones need to break in... solid-state amplifiers need to break in, somehow... cables need to break in, but only if they're over $1000... those teeny tiny balanced armatures need breaking in... but tubes!! That crap better have been sitting on the shelf for 50 years! I keep mine in the freezer after use!)

EDIT: How DARE head-fi playfully correct my swearing to "crap"

EDIT EDIT: The Sylvanias arrived and are JUST the ticket!


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## schneiderdn1974

PoMarantz said:


> Yeah...I am "vintage" like my amp (original purchaser in the late 70's early 80's. It's too long ago to remember when. LOL!)...I have my covid shots...but I am not as old as Paul. I think that he is giving some good info...and convincing me not to spend the $500 refurbing my Carver (which I had planned to do after I get the EX-B7 Monoblocs). Mostly for nostalgic reasons I guess...Funny how we attach to things!
> Have you rolled any NOS tubes in your Freya? (I see that you are stocked up on the stock tubes!  ).
> My Freya Plus came with the JJ Tubes, but I am now running it with some NOS GE Tubes that I bought on Etsy.


As you mentioned, I'm completely stocked up on new Tung Sol 6SN7GTB tubes, so logic (and my wife) would tell you I should be good to go for life, right??? . . . . Nope, similar to you, I've already purchased a matched pair of NOS GE 6SN7GTB tubes just to see if they'll "improve" the sound signature just a little bit more.  They haven't arrived yet (expecting this weekend), but I'm excited to start rolling different tubes into the differential gain stage. I've also heard good things about the new production Psvane CV181-T MKII (6SN7) tubes, but can't bring myself to shell out $172 for a pair. I'm assuming you're happy with sound of your NOS GE 6SN7GTB tubes?


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## PoMarantz (Jun 25, 2021)

HA HA…You would be wrong…yes…I do think the NOS GE 6SN7GTB tubes (I have 4)…and they do sound better than my JJs…broader, warmer soundstage..extended highs and lows…but I have no wife to govern me 👍🏼 (the upcoming Monoblocs should be the give away there! 😎)…so…..yes…after I buy the amps…like you, I was thinking of trying a pair of  Psvane CV181-T MKIIs….or…gulp…a pair of Shuguang Treasure Series 6SN7-SE Globes. Another tube that I would like to know more about are: JAN (joint army navy) RCA CRC-5692 Tubes. These last two are hard to find and expensive. Sitting here listening to some Milt Jackson with the GEs and the old Carver…ENJOYABLE! …and relaxing! This is all such great fun!


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## richard_hing

schneiderdn1974 said:


> As you mentioned, I'm completely stocked up on new Tung Sol 6SN7GTB tubes, so logic (and my wife) would tell you I should be good to go for life, right??? . . . . Nope, similar to you, I've already purchased a matched pair of NOS GE 6SN7GTB tubes just to see if they'll "improve" the sound signature just a little bit more.  They haven't arrived yet (expecting this weekend), but I'm excited to start rolling different tubes into the differential gain stage. I've also heard good things about the new production Psvane CV181-T MKII (6SN7) tubes, but can't bring myself to shell out $172 for a pair. I'm assuming you're happy with sound of your NOS GE 6SN7GTB tubes?


You’ll like the subtle improvements of the GE 6SN7GTB tubes, especially if you  place them in the voltage gain stage—the two right-hand side positions. The tone I get from my system is rich and smooth. The fact that these tubes are relatively affordable depending who you purchase from just adds to the satisfaction that the Freya + is a bargain high end preamp.

My second system consists of a pair of KEF LS50 speakers, and I am considering a pair of the Schiit Aegir amps with a Freya + preamp. The alternative is to build a pair of Pass DIY Aleph J Class A monoblocks and drive them with a Freya + preamp. Either way, the Freya + appears to play nicely with really good Class A solid state power amps. It’s amazing how versatile the Freya + and my Aleph J amp can play anything from simple acoustic to classic rock to jazz and large scale orchestral music and just sound right.

I just ordered some Duelund DCA20GA wire, some Tin-plated Copper shielding, Techflex sleeving and some Switchcraft XLR connectors to roll two sets of balanced XLR interconnect cables. Compared to the DIY Mogami 2549 balanced XLR interconnect cables I have in place, it may not make a huge difference, but I have to explore all options to getting the most out of my setup. I recently replaced my standard hospital grade IEC bargain special power cable from Amazon.com with a Zu Mission IEC power cable to power the Freya +, and the bass response became tighter and more detailed. The sound quality I am getting is just stupid good.


----------



## schneiderdn1974

PoMarantz said:


> HA HA…You would be wrong…yes…I do think the NOS GE 6SN7GTB tubes (I have 4)…and they do sound better than my JJs…broader, warmer soundstage..extended highs and lows…but I have no wife to govern me 👍🏼 (the upcoming Monoblocs should be the give away there! 😎)…so…..yes…after I buy the amps…like you, I was thinking of trying a pair of  Psvane CV181-T MKIIs….or…gulp…a pair of Shuguang Treasure Series 6SN7-SE Globes. Another tube that I would like to know more about are: JAN (joint army navy) RCA CRC-5692 Tubes. These last two are hard to find and expensive. Sitting here listening to some Milt Jackson with the GEs and the old Carver…ENJOYABLE! …and relaxing! This is all such great fun!


Well, well, well, . . . I now have the NOS GE 6SN7GTB tubes installed and both you and richard_hing were spot on about the improved sound. I think the new production Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB tubes are pretty good all around, but the GE's definitely step up the game a few notches (note: I'm running the GE's on the right/voltage gain side, and the Tung-Sols on the left).

As you both noted, the GEs produce a smooth/warm midrange and enhance the low end (and lower mid-range) nicely. To quote Richard, I think "rich" is a good way to describe the overall sound signature. I'm really enjoying the improved impact/punch the GEs bring to the table and would say all my music is just a bit more engaging because of the additional warmth. I'm also still hearing plenty of resolution and detail up top, so overall a great purchase!! Thanks for the advice!


----------



## richard_hing

schneiderdn1974 said:


> Well, well, well, . . . I now have the NOS GE 6SN7GTB tubes installed and both you and richard_hing were spot on about the improved sound. I think the new production Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB tubes are pretty good all around, but the GE's definitely step up the game a few notches (note: I'm running the GE's on the right/voltage gain side, and the Tung-Sols on the left).
> 
> As you both noted, the GEs produce a smooth/warm midrange and enhance the low end (and lower mid-range) nicely. To quote Richard, I think "rich" is a good way to describe the overall sound signature. I'm really enjoying the improved impact/punch the GEs bring to the table and would say all my music is just a bit more engaging because of the additional warmth. I'm also still hearing plenty of resolution and detail up top, so overall a great purchase!! Thanks for the advice!


Glad they are working out for you. The best part is a matched pair won’t cost an arm and a leg like some vintage 6SN7 tubes.


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## Crowbar44

Can anyone here comment on the transparency of the buffer only SS mode with the Freya+.

I'm planning on using it with my  McIntosh MHA200 amp.  However, the MHA200 has an input impedance of 10K Ohm SE and 20K Balanced, which makes passive mode a bad fit, but I'm wondering about using the SS buffers only.

I basically need it for volume control only, not looking to add additional coloration to the signal path, so would rather not use the tube stage.

Freya S would have been a better choice for me - but who knows if it will ever come back...


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## rkindel

Crowbar44 said:


> Can anyone here comment on the transparency of the buffer only SS mode with the Freya+.
> 
> I'm planning on using it with my  McIntosh MHA200 amp.  However, the MHA200 has an input impedance of 10K Ohm SE and 20K Balanced, which makes passive mode a bad fit, but I'm wondering about using the SS buffers only.
> 
> ...


I find the passive stage to be superior to the buffer stage in every way with my system. This includes transparency. But it is pretty close. That’s not to say I find no use for the buffer stage. For music, like many CDs, that are overly lean and dry in the bass the slightly warmer sound with the buffer stage can be just the ticket. If that isn’t enough of a change you can use the tube stage though I often find that too much.


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## richard_hing (Jul 12, 2021)

Unless you plan on using a source with balanced outputs and the MHA200 in balanced mode to drive your headphones, then the Freya + is probably overkill for your application. You might as well invest in a very good passive volume control from Khozmo or Goldpoint, or maybe even a TVA.

I prefer the vacuum tube differential mode for my critical listening. If I am playing music in the background, then I use the JFET differential buffer mode, which sounds very good, but not as tonally rich as the tube differential mode. I am not referring to coloration here, but actually getting tonal definition to distinguish instruments and vocals by their timbre.


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## Crowbar44

The problem with passives and the MHA200 is the low input impedance of the MHA200.  At10k Ohm SE (20k balanced) a passive (like the Khozmo) isn't going to be able to drive the amp well at all - which is why I'm looking for a minimalist, active SS pre-amp...any recommendation are appreciated!


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## Ableza

Quad set of 6SN7's for sale on another forum:
https://emotivalounge.proboards.com/thread/58490/electro-harmonix-6sn7-matched-tubes


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## milkdudd (Jul 15, 2021)

I'm considering the Freya+ to replace my Onkyo P-3000R preamp. The main reason is the Onkyo doesn't have balanced outputs. ATC that makes my amplifier highly recommends using balanced whenever possible. I emailed Schiit and they responded quickly saying the balanced should only be used for monoblocks and that I should use single ended. I'm sure they know what they are talking about but I'm just wondering if any of you can explain why this would be. In other words why I shouldn't use the balanced outputs of the Freya+ into my amp. Just trying to educate myself on preamp/amp compatibility regardless of which brand I use. These screenshots show the specs ATC P1 Pro that the Freya+ would output to. Also the specs of the Onkyo preamp I'm using now


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## Balthazar B

milkdudd said:


> I'm considering the Freya+ to replace my Onkyo P-3000R preamp. The main reason is the Onkyo doesn't have balanced outputs. ATC that makes my amplifier highly recommends using balanced whenever possible. I emailed Schiit and they responded quickly saying the balanced should only be used for monoblocks and that I should use single ended. I'm sure they know what they are talking about but I'm just wondering if any of you can explain why this would be. In other words why I shouldn't use the balanced outputs of the Freya+ into my amp. Just trying to educate myself on preamp/amp compatibility regardless of which brand I use. These screenshots show the specs ATC P1 Pro that the Freya+ would output to. Also the specs of the Onkyo preamp I'm using now



A cursory look at your ATC P1 Pro amp suggests it's really a dual monoblock amp in a single enclosure rather than a 2-channel stereo power amp. If that's the case, feeding it with balanced output from a Freya or other preamp with balanced output would seem optimal.


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## milkdudd

Balthazar B said:


> A cursory look at your ATC P1 Pro amp suggests it's really a dual monoblock amp in a single enclosure rather than a 2-channel stereo power amp. If that's the case, feeding it with balanced output from a Freya or other preamp with balanced output would seem optimal.


Thanks for the response. Yes I did know that about the dual mono but had somewhat slipped my mind for the time being. I guess if I buy used for a good price I won't lose much if it doesn't work out. And if I buy it new I'll have a couple weeks to try it out. Of course it will take me several weeks to get a new one. Thanks again


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## PoMarantz

"I emailed Schiit and they responded quickly saying the balanced should only be used for monoblocks and that I should use single ended."
I own a Freya+ and running with NOS tubes into a 40 year old Bob Carver C-500 Amp. My amp only accepts the RCAs …but, interestingly enough…I have a pair of Kinki Studio Monoblocs on order. Which according to your info is all well and good…I am no expert, but this info seems odd to me. Did Schiit offer any more of an explanation as to why the balanced outputs could not be used with any stereo power amps that have balanced inputs? Seems strange.


----------



## milkdudd

PoMarantz said:


> "I emailed Schiit and they responded quickly saying the balanced should only be used for monoblocks and that I should use single ended."
> I own a Freya+ and running with NOS tubes into a 40 year old Bob Carver C-500 Amp. My amp only accepts the RCAs …but, interestingly enough…I have a pair of Kinki Studio Monoblocs on order. Which according to your info is all well and good…I am no expert, but this info seems odd to me. Did Schiit offer any more of an explanation as to why the balanced outputs could not be used with any stereo power amps that have balanced inputs? Seems strange.


Actually I emailed them again to ask why the balanced would be a bad idea but haven't heard back. For now with me the point is moot because I waited too long and the one I was looking at for sale has already sold. Curious how yours works out once you have it all hooked up, please let us know


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## PoMarantz

Well,  right now I have the Freya hooked up using some GE NOS Tubes to my Carver…running Dynaudio Contour 20 Speakers. "To me" it sounds fantastic!…The reason I want the Kinki Monoblocs is that I want to hear my set-up thru a modern high-quality amp. Also…I want to take my Carver to be serviced… I think. It has its original capacitors in it and they sound fine (which most reviewers say is not possible. THEY'RE WRONG! 🙂)…but I think I should have them replaced, the volume pots cleaned (or replaced), the contacts cleaned and any upgrades done that my tech seems to think are relevant. He has a 4-5 month turnaround time, so I need the new amps so that I have tunes!😁


----------



## milkdudd

PoMarantz said:


> Well,  right now I have the Freya hooked up using some GE NOS Tubes to my Carver…running Dynaudio Contour 20 Speakers. "To me" it sounds fantastic!…The reason I want the Kinki Monoblocs is that I want to hear my set-up thru a modern high-quality amp. Also…I want to take my Carver to be serviced… I think. It has its original capacitors in it and they sound fine (which most reviewers say is not possible. THEY'RE WRONG! 🙂)…but I think I should have them replaced, the volume pots cleaned (or replaced), the contacts cleaned and any upgrades done that my tech seems to think are relevant. He has a 4-5 month turnaround time, so I need the new amps so that I have tunes!😁


C'mon man, you can't go four or five months without music? 🙄


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## Alpha1Ric (Jul 18, 2021)

Good Morning,

My current system is Headphone Solid State Amp and DAC.

I have some questions to understand.
1. Is there much difference in musical quality which connects freya to my Headphone SS amp?
2. The dac has RCA output to connect to freya+, can I use the balanced outputs after that? Is the sound converted from RCA to Balanced?
3. Will I use the technical details from the Tubes to SolidState Amp? like more warm, or cold, or more deep base, etc etc

When to equip the entire system (DAC ->Freya+ >Headphone SS amp)
Will I see differences in sound like deep base, soundstage, warmer, treble, tonality?

THanks


----------



## Voxata

Hey all, I've got a Freya S that was stained by the feet of an AC Infinity unit. It's circles. Alcohol didn't even make a dent and it's engrained. Any ideas on getting this removed?


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## milkdudd

Voxata said:


> Hey all, I've got a Freya S that was stained by the feet of an AC Infinity unit. It's circles. Alcohol didn't even make a dent and it's engrained. Any ideas on getting this removed?


Posting a picture might help. If they are kind of a rust color on silver they could be permanent. If no picture, maybe a description of what color rings on what color s*** so to speak


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## RonO

Here's a fun one. This morning I noticed that a twist tie on my desk stuck to the Freya remote.  It seems this remote has magnets in it, and will stick to a metal surface. It will stick right to the sides of the Freya, a leg on my rack, etc. etc.  Anyhow, check it out with yours. I don't recall seeing anything documenting this as a feature.


----------



## jonathan c

Voxata said:


> Hey all, I've got a Freya S that was stained by the feet of an AC Infinity unit. It's circles. Alcohol didn't even make a dent and it's engrained. Any ideas on getting this removed?


Bar Keeper’s Friend?  A powder cleaner with oxalic acid. [ I use this mixed with water to make a paste to clean tube pins. Rinse with water / then dab with isopropyl alcohol ]. I assume that your Freya has the silver finish.


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## centaurojz

RonO said:


> Here's a fun one. This morning I noticed that a twist tie on my desk stuck to the Freya remote.  It seems this remote has magnets in it, and will stick to a metal surface. It will stick right to the sides of the Freya, a leg on my rack, etc. etc.  Anyhow, check it out with yours. I don't recall seeing anything documenting this as a feature.


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## centaurojz

It comes standard on the Freya.


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## Voxata

jonathan c said:


> Bar Keeper’s Friend?  A powder cleaner with oxalic acid. [ I use this mixed with water to make a paste to clean tube pins. Rinse with water / then dab with isopropyl alcohol ]. I assume that your Freya has the silver finish.


Thanks I'll give it a shot


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## rkindel

I am very interested in seeing what Schiit comes up with with their new Loki max. I think this would be perfect with my Freya + in tube mode. I’ve always felt the tube stage was too warm for my taste. A slight cut at 120 hz should be just the ticket. I’m waiting to see what sonic benefits the five times more expensive unit offers over the newly introduced Lokius. One of the updates I do know about is the addition of a remote. A small thing, perhaps, but important for fine tuning the sound from the sweet spot. I’m hoping they will use the same design as the Freyas so it’s possible to mate the two remotes magnetically.


----------



## PoMarantz

Interesting…I never considered a tone control. I just looked up The Lokius. Pretty cool and inexpensive. So…they are coming out with a new unit?


----------



## rkindel

PoMarantz said:


> Interesting…I never considered a tone control. I just looked up The Lokius. Pretty cool and inexpensive. So…they are coming out with a new unit?


What I know. The same 6 bands I assume. 20hz, 120hz, 400hz, 3000hz, 6000hz and 16000hz. Same size chassis as the Freya. Remote control and PRESETS! I don’t know how many. I hope it will offer some way to have calibrated settings. No Loki, so far, has any kind of reference markings on its face. Loki Max will reportedly be $1500 as opposed to $299 for the Lokius. That’s why I am hoping that there will be Sonics on a higher level. I alternate between 2 different speaker systems so storeable presets could be very handy. Schiit is so value oriented that at this price the sky is the limit for a product like this. I heard this production started a couple months ago so here’s hoping it’s introduction isn’t too far off.


----------



## thefitz

What bugs me is Jason said they'd never be truly balanced. That bugs me, to take such care to preserved a balanced signal like that, only to "ruin it" with something you can do via software anyway. 

I mean, sure, if all you listen to is vinyl, it might be a worthwhile concession. But how many of us do that?


----------



## PoMarantz

rkindel said:


> What I know. The same 6 bands I assume. 20hz, 120hz, 400hz, 3000hz, 6000hz and 16000hz. Same size chassis as the Freya. Remote control and PRESETS! I don’t know how many. I hope it will offer some way to have calibrated settings. No Loki, so far, has any kind of reference markings on its face. Loki Max will reportedly be $1500 as opposed to $299 for the Lokius. That’s why I am hoping that there will be Sonics on a higher level. I alternate between 2 different speaker systems so storeable presets could be very handy. Schiit is so value oriented that at this price the sky is the limit for a product like this. I heard this production started a couple months ago so here’s hoping it’s introduction isn’t too far off.


WOW! YES…I would be more interested in a Loki Max product for sure. Remote control is a MUST in my mind…you want to be sitting where you listen to the music when adjusting it. DUH. It is 2021 for God's sake. 😄Anything else would be torture! LOL! And..the size format being the same as the Freya…YUP!…but based on the cost of the other Schiit Tone controls…the price is a bit of a shocker, especially in THAT context. THE tone control costing more than the pre-amp is NOT workin' for me 😳…but I am intrigued, just the same…definitely.


----------



## TS0711 (Aug 10, 2021)

PoMarantz said:


> Well,  right now I have the Freya hooked up using some GE NOS Tubes to my Carver…running Dynaudio Contour 20 Speakers. "To me" it sounds fantastic!…The reason I want the Kinki Monoblocs is that I want to hear my set-up thru a modern high-quality amp. Also…I want to take my Carver to be serviced… I think. It has its original capacitors in it and they sound fine (which most reviewers say is not possible. THEY'RE WRONG! 🙂)…but I think I should have them replaced, the volume pots cleaned (or replaced), the contacts cleaned and any upgrades done that my tech seems to think are relevant. He has a 4-5 month turnaround time, so I need the new amps so that I have tunes!😁


No disrespect but the Freya is the weak link in your chain.  I'm a fan fan of Dynaudio, having owned the Special 25's since they were first released.  Not sure what Carver you have but new caps can't hurt depending on it's age.

I own the original Freya and swapped it out for my passive Bent Audio TVC (which was gathering dust in a closet), and there was no going back.  That said I use antique VTL compact 100's with original Mullard EL34's feeding Marten Design Dukes... Also interconnects matter... Get yourself speaker cables and interconnects from Crimson Audio and be done with it.

Unsolicited advise from an old guy 🎧


----------



## PoMarantz (Aug 11, 2021)

TS0711 said:


> No disrespect but the Freya is the weak link in your chain.  I'm a fan fan of Dynaudio, having owned the Special 25's since they were first released.  Not sure what Carver you have but new caps can't hurt depending on it's age.
> 
> I own the original Freya and swapped it out for my passive Bent Audio TVC (which was gathering dust in a closet), and there was no going back.  That said I use antique VTL compact 100's with original Mullard EL34's feeding Marten Design Dukes... Also interconnects matter... Get yourself speaker cables and interconnects from Crimson Audio and be done with it.
> 
> Unsolicited advise from an old guy 🎧


Glad you are having fun!
EH …I use 10-gauge lamp cord. 😬
Carver C-500. 250wpc@8ohms. Solid state…not one of those magnetic field things.
I did take my amp apart and Deox-ited the pots and all the contacts. Nice change. Amazing actually.
…my Freya is staying…. I am thinking two Krel subs next….then maybe Kinki Studio Mono-Blocs.
Then I could get the Carver re-capped.
We'll see.


----------



## jonathan c

Voxata said:


> Hey all, I've got a Freya S that was stained by the feet of an AC Infinity unit. It's circles. Alcohol didn't even make a dent and it's engrained. Any ideas on getting this removed?


Did the Barkeeper’s Friend cleaner work for you on this?


----------



## Voxata (Aug 15, 2021)

jonathan c said:


> Did the Barkeeper’s Friend cleaner work for you on this?


Yes it worked! I did not use the steel pad that came with my combo for obvious reasons hah but a combed soft pad did the trick. Thank you,


----------



## duranxv

I'm torn between getting the Saga+ or Freya+ as a tube pre-amp to a SE solid state (I'm currently using the Sparkos Aries) feeding a Verite Closed. Is there any reason to go with the Freya+ vs the Saga+ other than the additional gain of the Freya?

I'm trying to introduce some of that magical tube sound to help bring out the VC's potential, but at the same time I don't want to stop using my SS amp because it's really damn good and pairs very well with the VC.


----------



## uphoto

This has to be the most detailed and longest thread on rolling tubes for the Freya, so I thought I would ask for some advice.

I just got the Freya + and I really like the sound of the differential buffer stage but the tubes were what I was most excited about yet I don't like the sound.  Vocals are too veiled and details are a bit "mushy" sounding.  I would like to find some tubes that could clean up the mid's and lift the vocals a bit and clear them up.  I tried reading thru this but damn there is A LOT of info.......

One review I read earlier said they preferred the Shuguang Treasure CV181-Z tubes, just one pair of them seems to make the vocals more "airy" and forward and that's what I want with that added tube magic.  At $150 a pair or so, those are the top of what I would want to spend but thought I would reach out to see what others would say might help with what I'm hearing with my stock JJ's. 

Appreciate the time and help!


----------



## armyjazzer

uphoto said:


> This has to be the most detailed and longest thread on rolling tubes for the Freya, so I thought I would ask for some advice.
> 
> I just got the Freya + and I really like the sound of the differential buffer stage but the tubes were what I was most excited about yet I don't like the sound.  Vocals are too veiled and details are a bit "mushy" sounding.  I would like to find some tubes that could clean up the mid's and lift the vocals a bit and clear them up.  I tried reading thru this but damn there is A LOT of info.......
> 
> ...



I am running 2 pairs of the CV181-Z's for a long time now and have been very satisfied.  I haven't done any other tube rolling to compare them though, so maybe ignorance is bliss on my part.  Wanted to get some of the good RCA's but too high for me, so I have just stuck with these.


----------



## Licht

uphoto said:


> This has to be the most detailed and longest thread on rolling tubes for the Freya, so I thought I would ask for some advice.
> 
> I just got the Freya + and I really like the sound of the differential buffer stage but the tubes were what I was most excited about yet I don't like the sound.  Vocals are too veiled and details are a bit "mushy" sounding.  I would like to find some tubes that could clean up the mid's and lift the vocals a bit and clear them up.  I tried reading thru this but damn there is A LOT of info.......
> 
> ...



Burn-in clears it a little bit, but in my opinion JJ has really colored tuby sound, it might be good or bad depending on your preference and system synergy though. 
Tung-Sol sounds clear and I love them.


----------



## Balthazar B

uphoto said:


> This has to be the most detailed and longest thread on rolling tubes for the Freya, so I thought I would ask for some advice.
> 
> I just got the Freya + and I really like the sound of the differential buffer stage but the tubes were what I was most excited about yet I don't like the sound.  Vocals are too veiled and details are a bit "mushy" sounding.  I would like to find some tubes that could clean up the mid's and lift the vocals a bit and clear them up.  I tried reading thru this but damn there is A LOT of info.......
> 
> ...



With the caveat that I haven't had an opportunity to compare them directly with the Shuguang CV181 product, I like these PSvane tubes a lot (I pair them with Tung-Sols):
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00N9T5ZHW?tag=stereoshore00-20&geniuslink=true

I also saw a good review of these, but have not heard them: https://www.vivatubes.com/new-gain-matched-pair-psvane-cv181-t-mkii-6sn7-classic-vacuum-tubes/


----------



## jbua5150

I also enjoy the Treasure CV181 with the TungSol. 
not quite as good as my RCA/Sylvania combo, but also not as microphonic.


----------



## Paladin79 (Sep 26, 2021)

uphoto said:


> This has to be the most detailed and longest thread on rolling tubes for the Freya, so I thought I would ask for some advice.
> 
> I just got the Freya + and I really like the sound of the differential buffer stage but the tubes were what I was most excited about yet I don't like the sound.  Vocals are too veiled and details are a bit "mushy" sounding.  I would like to find some tubes that could clean up the mid's and lift the vocals a bit and clear them up.  I tried reading thru this but damn there is A LOT of info.......
> 
> ...


I have heard most any 6sn7 and equivalent known to man (my local audiophile group and I collected them for a blind listen) and for overall accuracy of sound I prefer Melz 1578's between the years 1958 and 1963 in the Freya. Many can still be found in the $150 per tube range. I also like CBS/Hytron 5692's for overall accuracy and a little less warmth. Mind you I run the preamp into a Cary tube amp as well as a tube amp I designed myself, both Class A.  Tubes are not for everyone but eventually you learn which tubes are right for you and specific types of music. I do not roll tubes in the Freya often myself but another fine choice is the Raytheon 6sn7wgt.  These are all older tubes and you have to know what you are doing when you try to find them, especially the Melz. Some of the new Chinese tubes are decent and I tend to prefer those over Russian remakes.  

https://www.ebay.com/itm/274405496479?hash=item3fe3d7969f:g:oQYAAOSw6cRgfTfe

These are the real deal, I also run those as well as some rare variations in headphone amps I designed. On occasion the solder in the tube pins can cause issues but I have replaced said solder for friends at no charge.  My Freya is on a shelf in a rack so not real visible but here is a shot of a Melz my group ranked near the vary top of 1500 tubes we tried in blind comparisons.


----------



## uphoto

jbua5150 said:


> I also enjoy the Treasure CV181 with the TungSol.
> not quite as good as my RCA/Sylvania combo, but also not as microphonic.


I think this is the direction I'm going.

Just ordered a pair of the Treasures and will probably follow with the TungSol.  Appreciate everyones advice, really want to stay under $200 or so for all 4, will probably be a bit over that but it's a good start I think.


----------



## Mondo Caliente

Switching among the modes in a Freya is where you can easily see the differences, and I've found with the NOS GE 6SN7GTB tubes they're utterly as clear seem to display  more micro detail than the 2 "passive" non tube modes, and these GEs are fairly old at this point. They keep on so they stay in the amp!


----------



## uphoto

Mondo Caliente said:


> Switching among the modes in a Freya is where you can easily see the differences, and I've found with the NOS GE 6SN7GTB tubes they're utterly as clear seem to display  more micro detail than the 2 "passive" non tube modes, and these GEs are fairly old at this point. They keep on so they stay in the amp!


That's good to hear that tubes can make that kind of change.  I really like the sound of the differential buffer in the way of soundstage and having more forward and clear vocals and detail but it's a bit sterile sounding and a bit harsh, I think getting tubes to give me the vocal presence like the other modes along with the tube rich and warmth is my happy place.


----------



## uphoto (Sep 29, 2021)

Got my Treasures in today and plugged in.

At first I got nasty high static from the left channel so I unplugged the unit and took the tubes out and back in.  The got loud crackles and pops.  Unplugged again and took them out.  Now plugged back in and seems fine, got one nasty loud crack but nothing since.  Anybody else experience this?  Seems like the tube base is almost too big for the opening and it might be causing some noise from being in contact with the opening in the preamp?  Pic attached on how little space there is.

Or maybe the prongs were a bit dirty or had something on them?  Seems like the putting in and out over a few times made things get quieter.


----------



## PoMarantz (Sep 29, 2021)

WOW…those are wild looking. The bases are ceramic, right? …so that should not be a problem touching the top plate of the amp. I have a set of NOS tubes (4), GE I think…and the originals…and have a 300BYaqin tube amp…I never experienced any of the things you described. I even had a prong pull out on one of the smaller tubes on my Yaqin and no noises or fireworks.
OK….but…..HOW DO THEY SOUND!!!???? 😸


----------



## uphoto

Yeah, I don't get it......I think maybe it was the coating on the pins because it hasn't done it again after a few times of putting them in and out.

Sound is EXACTLY what I wanted, really brought vocals forward and added some air to them.  Also noticed a bit more precise bass too, I'm really happy!  Tung-sol's come in tomorrow for the other pair.


----------



## Balthazar B

uphoto said:


> Got my Treasures in today and plugged in.
> 
> At first I got nasty high static from the left channel so I unplugged the unit and took the tubes out and back in.  The got loud crackles and pops.  Unplugged again and took them out.  Now plugged back in and seems fine, got one nasty loud crack but nothing since.  Anybody else experience this?  Seems like the tube base is almost too big for the opening and it might be causing some noise from being in contact with the opening in the preamp?  Pic attached on how little space there is.


God made socket savers for Freyas to use with oddly-dimensioned tubes...


----------



## jbua5150

Balthazar B said:


> God made socket savers for Freyas to use with oddly-dimensioned tubes...


I feel socket savers are a MUST on Freya.
Without socket savers, one has to remove the tubes by the glass.
Probably ok with current production tubes, but any OLD tubes may have VERY old glue. 
I have some 6C8G pairs from 1943 and 1944.  That glue is nearly 80 years old, I WILL NOT pull on the glass!


----------



## zoophaugus (Oct 1, 2021)

Hi All,
Just got my Freya+ in a few hours ago.
I barely get any volume until the dial is at 12 O clock and then it starts to kick up.. Most other dials in other equipment that I have used the action is from 8 or 9 oclock to 12. It would appear to be reversed on this frey+.  Obviously the tube stage has higher gain and volume is at higher levels on the same mark on the dial as the other 2 stages.

 Is this normal?

EDIT- P.S i am running balanced from my yggy to freya but only single end to the power amp (adcom GFA-5802) even though amp has balanced input I know the amp is not truly balanced so I may as well make use of my my Cardas Neutral Reference interconnects.


----------



## jbua5150

zoophaugus said:


> Hi All,
> Just got my Freya+ in a few hours ago.
> I barely get any volume until the dial is at 12 O clock and then it starts to kick up..


This is the same way my Freya + behaves.


----------



## uphoto

zoophaugus said:


> Hi All,
> Just got my Freya+ in a few hours ago.
> I barely get any volume until the dial is at 12 O clock and then it starts to kick up.. Most other dials in other equipment that I have used the action is from 8 or 9 oclock to 12. It would appear to be reversed on this frey+.  Obviously the tube stage has higher gain and volume is at higher levels on the same mark on the dial as the other 2 stages.
> 
> ...


Yup, normal.  My system I have very efficient speakers (95db) and 200w per channel and I still have to turn the Freya + up to 1 o clock to get high volume.  I'm using all balanced and tube section too.  It's just how that volume control is.


----------



## rkindel

uphoto said:


> Yup, normal.  My system I have very efficient speakers (95db) and 200w per channel and I still have to turn the Freya + up to 1 o clock to get high volume.  I'm using all balanced and tube section too.  It's just how that volume control is.


I use a low output moving coil cartridge feeding a Mani phono stage. My volume is typically at around the 2 to 4 o’clock position when I listen to vinyl.


----------



## zoophaugus (Oct 2, 2021)

Is there a burn in time for the Freya?

Ive been running it today for 12 hours and it has some good imaging and super clean sound but it falters at higher volumes with a some what fatiguing sound. Doesn't seem to matter if I'm in Tube mode or the others. Ive been running the tubes in all day today. I don't normally listen to my music really loud but I do turn it up on occasion and tonight I my ears immediately picked up on it.
I bought freya+ for secondary system mainly for its remote and to replace a 45 lb. behemoth all tube pre amp with no remote might add. To say Freya doesn't compete with it would be an over statement but at this point I would have to say they are clearly not at the same level. The JAS Audio Array 1.1 presents the sound as though your in front row centre at the concert and can be turned up with no fatigue to your ears. 

Does Freya improve with time?


----------



## rkindel

zoophaugus said:


> Is there a burn in time for the Freya?
> 
> Ive been running it today for 12 hours and it has some good imaging and super clean sound but it falters at higher volumes with a some what fatiguing sound. Doesn't seem to matter if I'm in Tube mode or the others. Ive been running the tubes in all day today. I don't normally listen to my music really loud but I do turn it up on occasion and tonight I my ears immediately picked up on it.
> I bought freya+ for secondary system mainly for its remote and to replace a 45 lb. behemoth all tube pre amp with no remote might add. To say Freya doesn't compete with it would be an over statement but at this point I would have to say they are clearly not at the same level. The JAS Audio Array 1.1 presents the sound as though your in front row centre at the concert and can be turned up with no fatigue to your ears.
> ...


Absolutely. Mine took months to settle in. I turn mine on in the morning and leave it on passive all day, out of habit. I didn’t notice it so much with passive stage  but tube improved greatly over time. My impression is we aren’t talking about tube burn in but the preamp itself.


----------



## rkindel

zoophaugus said:


> Hi All,
> Just got my Freya+ in a few hours ago.
> I barely get any volume until the dial is at 12 O clock and then it starts to kick up.. Most other dials in other equipment that I have used the action is from 8 or 9 oclock to 12. It would appear to be reversed on this frey+.  Obviously the tube stage has higher gain and volume is at higher levels on the same mark on the dial as the other 2 stages.
> 
> ...


Just noticed you are running a Adcom 5802 power amp. I love my vintage 5500. Sounds great after I had it recapped a couple of years back. On a whim, I set it on three Isoacoustic Orea isolation feet a couple of days ago. The term “blown away” is very overused but it’s perfectly descriptive of what I heard. Didn’t hear a change when I tried vibrapods and cones on my Freya when I first got it. Maybe I might try Oreas on it instead. Must say, I’m beginning to become a believer in isolation devices. I’ve had good luck using Vibrapods and cones with both my CD player and Benchmark DAC but not so much when I tried them with my Mani.


----------



## PoMarantz

rkindel said:


> Just noticed you are running a Adcom 5802 power amp. I love my vintage 5500. Sounds great after I had it recapped a couple of years back. On a whim, I set it on three Isoacoustic Orea isolation feet a couple of days ago. The term “blown away” is very overused but it’s perfectly descriptive of what I heard. Didn’t hear a change when I tried vibrapods and cones on my Freya when I first got it. Maybe I might try Oreas on it instead. Must say, I’m beginning to become a believer in isolation devices. I’ve had good luck using Vibrapods and cones with both my CD player and Benchmark DAC but not so much when I tried them with my Mani.


FUNNY! I am so far in the other direction from you kindle. My Freya + controls my 40+ year-old Bob Carver C-500 Power Amp with its original capacitors. An excellent tech told me that I DID NOT need to replace the capacitors…and this guy knows his stuff….. It powers a pair of DynAudio Contour 20s.  I am always happy when I am listening to music. This system is all I know…so…I am sure that there is better sound out there…but I am happy with what I have for now…..
I noticed no "burn in" time, etc….whatever…might be because I am old and my hearing is not as sensitive as it once was….but it’s more about the music for me these days….


----------



## zoophaugus

rkindel said:


> Just noticed you are running a Adcom 5802 power amp. I love my vintage 5500. Sounds great after I had it recapped a couple of years back. On a whim, I set it on three Isoacoustic Orea isolation feet a couple of days ago. The term “blown away” is very overused but it’s perfectly descriptive of what I heard. Didn’t hear a change when I tried vibrapods and cones on my Freya when I first got it. Maybe I might try Oreas on it instead. Must say, I’m beginning to become a believer in isolation devices. I’ve had good luck using Vibrapods and cones with both my CD player and Benchmark DAC but not so much when I tried them with my Mani.


The mighty GFA-5802- Adcoms flagship amp - Bought the amp and pre amp (JAS Audio - Array 1.1) brand new in my early 20's nearly 20 years ago with some higher end interconnects(Cardas Nuetral reference) and always thoroughly enjoyed the synergy between those 2 components (Lot of coin for a kid in his 20's back then)- And a $1000 dollar CD Player as well..  I use a switch box to bypass the tube pre with my receiver into the adcom ONLY for watching movies in digital surround... I absolutely cannot stand the  2 channel pre amp function of the receiver as it sound like absolute garbage.
Only thing buggin me the whole time is no REMOTE volume control on the pre amp hence the new Fray+ now. This set up is now in my basement. Was planning on ditching the switch box and using one of Freya's inputs. Freya's ability to turn off/on the tubes was another big motivating factor here which would come in handy while watching movies.

My newer more modern system (Main level) consists of an Audio Research LS26 pre amp with Bryston 7B3 mono blocks. The LS26 bests my Array 1.1  in its ability to holographically image the sound at you  and again that volume can keep going up with no strain to your ears what so ever.

So far I can say the Freya+ is a capable pre amp with good imaging and crystal clear sound - it will annihilate any digital pre amp from a common HT receiver. The vocals and instruments are not as pronounced and right in front of you as they are presented by the Array 1.1 which is fine as every pre has its own sound (but they are good none the less)- the fatiguing sound at higher levels might be the deal breaker for me here. Will run 24/7 for the next few days and see if it improves.


----------



## rkindel

zoophaugus said:


> The mighty GFA-5802- Adcoms flagship amp - Bought the amp and pre amp (JAS Audio - Array 1.1) brand new in my early 20's nearly 20 years ago with some higher end interconnects(Cardas Nuetral reference) and always thoroughly enjoyed the synergy between those 2 components (Lot of coin for a kid in his 20's back then)- And a $1000 dollar CD Player as well..  I use a switch box to bypass the tube pre with my receiver into the adcom ONLY for watching movies in digital surround... I absolutely cannot stand the  2 channel pre amp function of the receiver as it sound like absolute garbage.
> Only thing buggin me the whole time is no REMOTE volume control on the pre amp hence the new Fray+ now. This set up is now in my basement. Was planning on ditching the switch box and using one of Freya's inputs. Freya's ability to turn off/on the tubes was another big motivating factor here which would come in handy while watching movies.
> 
> My newer more modern system (Main level) consists of an Audio Research LS26 pre amp with Bryston 7B3 mono blocks. The LS26 bests my Array 1.1  in its ability to holographically image the sound at you  and again that volume can keep going up with no strain to your ears what so ever.
> ...


I am running a surround system with my music system as well, using the Freya in surround pass through (left and right fronts from the processor to the Freya in passive mode with the volume opened all the way up then out to my power amp as usual.) Works just like a designed surround pass through.


----------



## zoophaugus

rkindel said:


> I am running a surround system with my music system as well, using the Freya in surround pass through (left and right fronts from the processor to the Freya in passive mode with the volume opened all the way up then out to my power amp as usual.) Works just like a designed surround pass through.


Volume opened all the way up? Sounds like a recipe for disaster while switching inputs to another live incoming stream .. say your music..
Would it not make more sense to crank up the pre outs on the reciever a little? Find a happy sweet spot so as not to accidentally damage your speakers.
If I keep my Freya I will be putting a sticker on the volume knob for a visual indicator of what level its at. This would be handy when switching inputs in a scenario such as described above.


----------



## lokerola

Hey folks, I'm new here (usually over at audiokarma), but I'm loving my Freya plus. I ordered it about 3 months ago. I pulled the JJ tubes and put in four Tung Sol's. It has a beautiful, full soundstage through my Rogue ST100 and upgraded OHM Walsh 2xO's. The Tung Sol's are a great upgrade to the JJ's (IMHO).


----------



## Btarr

lokerola said:


> Hey folks, I'm new here (usually over at audiokarma), but I'm loving my Freya plus. I ordered it about 3 months ago. I pulled the JJ tubes and put in four Tung Sol's. It has a beautiful, full soundstage through my Rogue ST100 and upgraded OHM Walsh 2xO's. The Tung Sol's are a great upgrade to the JJ's (IMHO).


For me Tung-Sol, the older the better is the only way to go.


----------



## EELawson

lokerola said:


> Hey folks, I'm new here (usually over at audiokarma), but I'm loving my Freya plus. I ordered it about 3 months ago. I pulled the JJ tubes and put in four Tung Sol's. It has a beautiful, full soundstage through my Rogue ST100 and upgraded OHM Walsh 2xO's. The Tung Sol's are a great upgrade to the JJ's (IMHO).


A similar opportunity exists with your Rogue ST-100.  Mine came with 4 JJ's in the small tube sockets (12AU7 & 12 AX7).  I replaced them with Genelex Gold Lions.  That was a noticible upgrade.


----------



## rkindel

zoophaugus said:


> Volume opened all the way up? Sounds like a recipe for disaster while switching inputs to another live incoming stream .. say your music..
> Would it not make more sense to crank up the pre outs on the reciever a little? Find a happy sweet spot so as not to accidentally damage your speakers.
> If I keep my Freya I will be putting a sticker on the volume knob for a visual indicator of what level its at. This would be handy when switching inputs in a scenario such as described above.


Sure, you could do it that way but you can’t be sure the levels match. If you were unfortunate enough to switch inputs without lowering to volume you could be in for a nasty surprise. You just have to be mindful. Hasn’t happened to me yet.


----------



## Mondo Caliente

The jump in level when using the tube mode might be more extreme in the original Freya (I have one), but I assume it's still significant or maybe the same in the newer Freya +. I use a 12 or 15wpc (or something, depending on the tubes in the thing) Dennis Had single ended tube amp so I'm not in danger of blowing my efficient speakers (moderate power tube distortion doesn't hurt anything, unless your sitting too close to one of my guitar amps). I am completely used to the higher gain of the tubes and welcome it as the other two output settings aren't quite hot enough in my rig...I use those modes to check the "honesty" of my tubes at the same levels (ride that fader cowboy!). As a relatively early adopter of the Freya, supplied with those mysterious Russian tubes I immediately replaced (resulting in a tube roller's drawer full of tubes...NOS GEs being my faves), I can say my Freya to this day sounds beautiful, clear, non microphonic (luck maybe), and musical beyond any other preamp I've owned over many years (I've put it up against other very expensive and well regarded tube preamps owned by friends...it hold up swimmingly)...still a drop dead bargain.


----------



## thefitz

This might sound "extra", but I think I have a tube/headphone pairing. I am mad at myself for being so picky, but it's the truth.

I have an (alleged) pair of Shuguang Treasure CV181 tubes that I love with speakers or with my HE-6SE, but cannot stand with any other set. Almost sold my HEDDphone over it. The tubes are too damn noisy, with a maddening hum and all sorts of cheeps and chirps, on pretty much everything, but they're not particularly bad with the HE-6SE or my speaker setup. 

That, and while the tubes have incredible soundstage and detailing, I find them a little hard sounding in the upper mids which actually works in the favour of the HE-6SE. On everything else, I love my orange-label Sylvania 6SN7GTB. Low noise, not harsh at all, good bass presence, liquid mids. Perhaps lacking air and are not the last word in detail, but I'd trade a hint of air for a lack of fatigue any day of the week.


----------



## rkindel

thefitz said:


> This might sound "extra", but I think I have a tube/headphone pairing. I am mad at myself for being so picky, but it's the truth.
> 
> I have an (alleged) pair of Shuguang Treasure CV181 tubes that I love with speakers or with my HE-6SE, but cannot stand with any other set. Almost sold my HEDDphone over it. The tubes are too damn noisy, with a maddening hum and all sorts of cheeps and chirps, on pretty much everything, but they're not particularly bad with the HE-6SE or my speaker setup.
> 
> That, and while the tubes have incredible soundstage and detailing, I find them a little hard sounding in the upper mids which actually works in the favour of the HE-6SE. On everything else, I love my orange-label Sylvania 6SN7GTB. Low noise, not harsh at all, good bass presence, liquid mids. Perhaps lacking air and are not the last word in detail, but I'd trade a hint of air for a lack of fatigue any day of the week.


Another good report on the Sylvanias. Maybe I will check them out then I need to replace my Tung Sols.


----------



## thefitz

rkindel said:


> Another good report on the Sylvanias. Maybe I will check them out then I need to replace my Tung Sols.


I have vintage USA GTB Tung Sols in the cathode follower section and they're doing just fine there. In the gain stage, I found them a little noisier and a little splashier than the Sylvanias, but that might be the ticket with dark headphones.


----------



## Mondo Caliente

I've encountered only one microphonic Sylvania in my small pile...otherwise the "chrome domes" sound great...still second to my preferred GEs, but a great tube anyway.


----------



## thefitz

Mondo Caliente said:


> I've encountered only one microphonic Sylvania in my small pile...otherwise the "chrome domes" sound great...still second to my preferred GEs, but a great tube anyway.


Your comment made me dig out a pair of GE 6SN7GTAs and they're sweet sounding indeed. More open sounding no doubt, a little less warm, but damn they sound good. Still definitely even sounding like the Sylvanias, just tilted towards clarity over warmth.

It's actually crazy how much tubes can do.


----------



## Mondo Caliente

Yeah I don't know if GE GTBs are any different from GTAs, but I have 4 of 'em (GTBs) in the Freya that I keep watching for signs of age...after maybe a couple of years! I have one in the input of my single ended power amp also (it has only 4 tubes, 2 power, an input, and a rectifier in a Dennis Had Firebottle High Output). These things seem to last a while, and I check up on them from time to time...the easiest was is to simply compare the tone to the passive Freya options, or I swap out the tube in the amp...generally it goes right back in.


----------



## Will E Vormer

Hi guys cd anyone with a Freya S comment on the bass quality and quantity? Does it fill out after running in? 
Thanks


----------



## zoophaugus

Will E Vormer said:


> Hi guys cd anyone with a Freya S comment on the bass quality and quantity? Does it fill out after running in?
> Thanks


I've had my + now for about a month and it fills out better now or maybe it's just the highs have become a little relaxed now. Found them to be fatiguing at first but it's broken in now. I still find it to be a  some what bright sounding pre amp...


----------



## davidflas

Will E Vormer said:


> Hi guys cd anyone with a Freya S comment on the bass quality and quantity? Does it fill out after running in?
> Thanks


I’ve had my Freya S for about a year now, and have never found it lacking in bass quantity or quality. Mine wasn’t brand new when I got it though.


----------



## Tension250

Hi guys,
I am running my Freya+ (2x Tung sol round plates + 2x sylvania 6sn7gtb) and noticed some noise. I can get rid of the noise by lowering the gain of my power amplifier (a NAD c275 BEE). so now I need to turn up the Freya+ to around 14:00 to reach a proper listening level. So I am wondering am I loosing any sound quality by doing this?

Freya+  10:00 + fixed gain amp
vs
Freya+   14:00 + low gain amp

which shall give the best sound quality, despite the noise level?

Thanks a lot all!

-T.


----------



## rkindel

Tension250 said:


> Hi guys,
> I am running my Freya+ (2x Tung sol round plates + 2x sylvania 6sn7gtb) and noticed some noise. I can get rid of the noise by lowering the gain of my power amplifier (a NAD c275 BEE). so now I need to turn up the Freya+ to around 14:00 to reach a proper listening level. So I am wondering am I loosing any sound quality by doing this?
> 
> Freya+  10:00 + fixed gain amp
> ...


Trust your ears. Sounds like you are getting less noise running with a lower gain power amp. Don’t be afraid of running your Freya with the volume knob cranked. I run mine routinely between the 1 and 4 o’clock positions when I am in passive mode. I listen to passive most of the time. After all, the volume control is a attenuator. You’re just not attenuating as much there.


----------



## Tension250

Thanks rkindel,
Lowing the gain of my amp and increasing the knob indeed eliminate the noise (seems from the tubes) without losing any sound quality (to my ears). I am just trying to double-confirm this finding with other users. I am still too new to this.


----------



## OneEyedHito (Nov 9, 2021)

Got a like new Schiit Freya+ today and need some assistance with tubes and setup for a better sound.




I have had several Woo Tube headphone amps and an Octave V 40 SE in my 2-channel setup, I rolled tubes in all of them so I am not totally a newb but would really appreciate some guidance for anyone getting great sound out of their Schiit Freya.  I have the 4 stock JJ tubes, but also picked up 2 Smoked RCA's and 2 Gold Pin Electro Harmonix all matched in pairs and low on Microphonic's.  I originally had the 2 EH in the left ports and the 2 RCA's in the right and it sounded too thin, soundstage was wide for certain but lacking body, I have swapped the L to R pairs and now it is euphonic but still lacking body.

Amp is a Benchmark AHB2 fed from the Freya+ which is fed Roon via an ultraRendu into a Holo Audio Spring 3 so the chain is solid and without the Freya+ tubes much more impactful in sound signature.

Any guidance or help on tube setups that you have had success with is appreciated.


----------



## rsbrsvp

There are so so many tube recommendations and mixes mentioned in this thread. It is very confusing.

Could someone please do me a favor and tell me what the most commonly recommended two or three tubes are for the Freya +?  I am a fan of clarity, transparency, speed, and detail with minimal warmth and euphonics.

I would be interested in both recommendations of cost no object options and also best new issue tube options.


----------



## mantraone

rsbrsvp said:


> There are so so many tube recommendations and mixes mentioned in this thread. It is very confusing.
> 
> Could someone please do me a favor and tell me what the most commonly recommended two or three tubes are for the Freya +?  I am a fan of clarity, transparency, speed, and detail with minimal warmth and euphonics.
> 
> I would be interested in both recommendations of cost no object options and also best new issue tube options.


I'm using 4 x 6SN7-GTB Tung-Sol  (new, not-NOS) and I think is one of the best choice in this way.


----------



## prosnowboarder

I have a single aegir , a freya+, and a yggy a2 and am wondering if running balanced from the yggy to the freya+ (in tube mode) and then single ended to the aegir is better or worse for the signal compared to se out of the yggy. To me they present slightly different sound signatures but I can't pick which sounds correct.
Maybe that's just placebo?
Also wondering if adding another Aegir and going fully balanced would be my best bet as my interconnects are 15 ft from the freya to the aegir.
Oh yeah I love my freya+ btw


----------



## inmytaxi (Dec 11, 2021)

Baldr said:


> They have a strong presence in old analog communication receivers where a certain audio "punch" is required to understand audio with much rf noise in the background.


Hey Mike! Sorry to dig this up from years back but: do the similar cv4003, 5751 and other types suffer from this 'punch' effect.

....

Probably the balanced from the Yggy is more correct but not so much that it matters.  I meant to suggest running your Aegir in mono to compare balanced vs s/e. Follow the instructions with the cable connections, it's not just a simple disconnect the left or right.



> tube options?




The best I've found is the 6sn7wgt 3 hole Bad Boy plates from Sylvania, at $75 each when they were around.

There are plenty of matched tubes on ebay, I bought a pair of Bad Boys and 4x cheaper pairs -- $50 per pair -- matched tubes of various types from Bullz Tubes on ebay.  He'll give you a small discount if you're buying a few and of course save on shipping. The cheaper NOS tubes sound a little more closed in, less bass than the bad boy tubes, but more honest overall than new production Tung Sol which have peaky treble to these ears.

Expensive? Bad Boy seems expensive to me.

CBS 5692 is the $250 Mililtary spec of the 6sn7 and it's rather 'built up' which can result in better resistance to microphonics. I don't hear a lot of noise in Freya but they say big glass is noisier than the smaller glass, 9 pin replacements that came later (and some say sound like azz)

The most expensive you can buy right now? $300 Brimar that Bullz calls holy grail.  Others might tell you better how those sound. I like the Bad Boys fine. I wish I'd purchased 4.

For fun, there's a guy in Taiwan on ebay selling USA made NOS NIB Tung Sol at $20 a pop!


----------



## prosnowboarder (Dec 12, 2021)

I am definitely liking certain nos tubes MUCH better than the harsh stock tubes in my system. I will be looking for some more nos tubes with better defined bass and still open clarity without the harshness.

On another note I am thinking of upgrading my 14ft blue jeans rca's to audioquest evergreen rca but they only sell 3m or 5m not 4m.

 I'm thinking the 5m would be too long of an interconnect from the freya to the aegir being more than 15ft and the 3m is too short to reach the amp where I like it.

I could split the distance though by moving the freya closer to the amp but then I'd have to get longer balanced interconnects from the yggy to the freya.

Any other options or ideas here?


----------



## inmytaxi

prosnowboarder said:


> I am definitely liking certain nos tubes MUCH better than the harsh stock tubes in my system. I will be looking for some more nos tubes with better defined bass and still open clarity without the harshness.
> 
> On another note I am thinking of upgrading my 14ft blue jeans rca's to audioquest evergreen rca but they only sell 3m or 5m not 4m.
> 
> ...


I'd ask the fine people at Schiit but if you can't hear a difference between a short cable and a long one, you're probably better off with the money in your pocket. Over at audioscience review Amir compared several cables from monoprice and amazon and some other and there were basically identical and no noise was present.  I don't know if that means anything or not frankly.


----------



## prosnowboarder

Yeah I'm hesitating about the whole thing already as I'm  looking at cable prices and thinking the possible small benefit if any is probably not worth it for me... Especially since I'm using pretty long cables and on a budget.

You are probably right and I'm trying to fix what's not broken. Thank you for the reassurance and the ability to put the money toward something better like some nice nos tubes for the freya.


----------



## lokerola

Well, I'm still enjoying the sound of my Freya+, but man I hate the remote. You have to have it pointed EXACTLY at the Freya and the little buttons are annoying. If they had given this a usable remote I would rate it a 5 out of 5. But the annoying little remote makes me give it a 3.5 out 5 stars. 

Still rocking new Tung Sols in all 4 sockets and it makes lovely music.


----------



## paradoxper

inmytaxi said:


> Hey Mike! Sorry to dig this up from years back but: do the similar cv4003, 5751 and other types suffer from this 'punch' effect.
> 
> ....
> 
> ...


Would you mind sharing where the Brimars are available for purchase please?


----------



## paradoxper (Dec 22, 2021)

Any group consensus on, say, top 10 variants? I've picked up Brimar, Hytron, MELZ, looking for quads so I may play with direct comparison of gain and output stage.

I'm sure I'll find myself reading most of the 6SN7 thread.

Ok, back-reading the last 49 pages to + announcement, I've added RCA grey glass and Kenrad black glass. Very difficult to find quad - not matched.
I think I'll add some Jan and go from there as a starting point.


----------



## inmytaxi (Dec 23, 2021)

paradoxper said:


> Would you mind sharing where the Brimars are available for purchase please?


I have no idea the authenticity of these tubes, but I did buy 5 pairs (of cheaper non-Brimar tubes from Bullz) of $50 - $150 per pair and they seem like a fair deal for what I received.  Ebay is hit or miss overall. Be careful. I assume ebay as I assume gambling: the game's rules are designed to give eBay money, and have the seller and buyer fight each other to see who loses less money.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/265464109896?hash=item3dcee4db48:g:RUIAAOSwwCNhwn~K


----------



## paradoxper

inmytaxi said:


> I have no idea the authenticity of these tubes, but I did buy 5 pairs of $50 - $150 per pair and they seem like a fair deal for what I received.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/265464109896?hash=item3dcee4db48:g:RUIAAOSwwCNhwn~K


Thank you. I'd be careful buying from eBay unless established with the seller or can test for confirmation which I recommend always.


----------



## paradoxper

Have any of you tried playing with the *HITACHI 6SN7GTB Japan?*


----------



## inmytaxi (Dec 23, 2021)

paradoxper said:


> Thank you. I'd be careful buying from eBay unless established with the seller or can test for confirmation which I recommend always.


I assume anything I purchase on ebay is some sort of fraud or scam. I assume all other individuals do likewise, I forget to include warnings for those that need them. Apologies.

That said, I purchased tubes from one of the most well reputed resellers and got stuff that was not tested or even used, as the legs were crooked and it was NOT PHYSICALLY POSSIBLE for the tube to be plugged in.

I sent these tubes with their $10 testing fee back in a plain white envelope.  I didn't bother with a refund as that is the last time I buy a "tested" tube from a "reputable" seller.


----------



## IndieGradoFan

I recently moved my Freya, Gungnir, and dual Vidars from a closed cabinet to the top of my console. Pretty sure they sound better now that I can see them while listening. 

Using CBS/Haytron 5691 in driver stage and Psvane CV181-T mkii in gain stage, eventually feeding Ascend RAAL towers. Sounding really good today.


----------



## KoshNaranek

paradoxper said:


> Have any of you tried playing with the *HITACHI 6SN7GTB Japan?*


My favorite Tube. PM me if you have a source/stash


----------



## paradoxper

KoshNaranek said:


> My favorite Tube. PM me if you have a source/stash


I believe Koray has them. I'll retrace my steps as I stumbled upon them.


----------



## MacMan31

Outside of Schiit's own amps like Vidar what would be a good stereo amp to pair with the Freya+? Also is it worth it over the smaller Saga+?


----------



## Balthazar B

MacMan31 said:


> Outside of Schiit's own amps like Vidar what would be a good stereo amp to pair with the Freya+? Also is it worth it over the smaller Saga+?



Depends more than anything on with which set of speakers you're pairing the amp.


----------



## MacMan31

Balthazar B said:


> Depends more than anything on with which set of speakers you're pairing the amp.



Well my speakers are the Monitor Audio Silver 100. I'm looking to get a Marantz PM8005 amp.


----------



## Balthazar B

MacMan31 said:


> Well my speakers are the Monitor Audio Silver 100. I'm looking to get a Marantz PM8005 amp.



You wouldn't be pairing an integrated amp with a Freya or Saga. If you'll be using a preamp, you have plenty of choices in power amps with those speakers, but frankly either a Vidar or Aegir should work fine. The former if you'll be driving them loud, the latter if you want more musicality and finesse.


----------



## MacMan31

Balthazar B said:


> You wouldn't be pairing an integrated amp with a Freya or Saga. If you'll be using a preamp, you have plenty of choices in power amps with those speakers, but frankly either a Vidar or Aegir should work fine. The former if you'll be driving them loud, the latter if you want more musicality and finesse.



The Aegir is only 20 watts into 8 Ohms. Seems pretty low. My room is a 12 x 13 feet bedroom that I'm using as my "man cave".


----------



## Balthazar B

MacMan31 said:


> The Aegir is only 20 watts into 8 Ohms. Seems pretty low. My room is a 12 x 13 feet bedroom that I'm using as my "man cave".



Those Monitors run lower than 8 Ohms, so you'll be getting more like 30-40 watts from the Aegir. And they have decent sensitivity. I think on YouTube someone did a review of the Aegir with your speakers, but I don't recall the details. You might want to pose the Aegir-Monitor pairing question in the main Schiit forum rather than here; many more eyes will see it, and there may be someone there who has actually run that combo.


----------



## MacMan31

Balthazar B said:


> Those Monitors run lower than 8 Ohms, so you'll be getting more like 30-40 watts from the Aegir. And they have decent sensitivity. I think on YouTube someone did a review of the Aegir with your speakers, but I don't recall the details. You might want to pose the Aegir-Monitor pairing question in the main Schiit forum rather than here; many more eyes will see it, and there may be someone there who has actually run that combo.



Okay. The reason I'm looking at the Marantz PM8005 is cause it has a headphone jack. I'm trying to have one setup for both headphones and speakers.


----------



## Balthazar B

MacMan31 said:


> Okay. The reason I'm looking at the Marantz PM8005 is cause it has a headphone jack. I'm trying to have one setup for both headphones and speakers.



Then maybe a Ragnarok would be the all-in-one you're looking for. More power than an Aegir, and all the I/O you could hope for. I don't have one, but there are probably dozens of folks in the main Schiit forum who do. And maybe even someone running your speakers and headphones with one.


----------



## Lavakugel

I do need some help in this case...

I'm eyeing an aegir for my DAli speakers.... and is it correct that I need also a preamp freya, a dac and a streamer if i want spotify working? Is there a simpler solution for a setup??? Thanks


----------



## paradoxper

KoshNaranek said:


> My favorite Tube. PM me if you have a source/stash


Koray did have but he's currently out of stock.

If I see them in the wild, I'll be sure to send you a PM.


----------



## khashmi

Thanks for adding me to the group. It took me a week but I went through all of the pages in this thread in an effort to get to know my Freya Plus better (purchased in Dec) and to decide which tubes to roll first. 

My stock tubes are the new Electro Harmonix 6SN7. Unlike some folks I know that were getting NOS tubes even before their Freya arrived, I decided to give the EHs a fair shake before betraying them with another. This lasted 4 weeks. Considering I’ve no frame of reference (this being my first tube experience) I really liked it. 

During this month of break-in, I heard the tube sonically adjust (maybe bloom is a more poetic description?). This was evidenced by more volume at my typical spot, so I had to adjust it back a tad. Also, I could be totally imagining this but I swear the tubes start burning brighter as I spent more time with them. My research on this thread and the reference thread indicated that out of the new production lots, the EH is highly regarded so I guess I lucked out. Obviously part of the time I spent on this thread and speaking with at least two respected tube dealers was about what to eventually replace the tubes with, so here is what I got:

Used pair of CBS Hytron 5692 Brown Base–I’m the third owner. This is from Upscale Audio—Kevin’s Stash (no cryo). I got these from a seller that I’ve done business with and he barely used them and was getting rid of his Freya and was selling it with both the stock and Hytron tubes. He also had some good quality socket savers. I convinced him to sell the 5692’s and Socket Savers to me for $200, which I think is very fair price. I picked it up yesterday and also auditioned his hi fi system while I was at it. 

Used Sylvania 6SN7GTA Angled T Plate from a recommended seller on eBay.  These are Platinum Matched on AT10000 and tests within NOS tolerances. These were delivered while I was on the way to Brooklyn to pick up the 5692’s. Paid $60 bucks for a pair, which seemed reasonable. 

I’ve started to finally roll today starting with the 5692s on the gain stage while keeping the stock EH in the cathode follower. I’m wondering about two items:

1 Is there a break in period considering they are used? I doubt it, but figured I ask to set my expectations. From the first couple of hours listening, I’m finding the vocals more lush and no hint of upper treble shoutiness (the EH occasionally did that while it was blooming). The decay seems to be a tad longer too. I like it!

2. Is there a way to tell the year of manufacturing? My best guess is just the decade (1950’s) but I can’t get closer than that. Perhaps I’ll try to closely examine the markings on the glass to see if I can spot anything. 

Not sure when to start testing the Sylvania’s quite yet. Want to spend some quality time with the Hytron first. 

Any feed back on either of these tubes will be appreciated.


----------



## JollyGreen

Can someone please link me the best socket savers that they've ever used?


----------



## JollyGreen

Hello all, 

Suppose I will read back through the pages to get some tube recommendations for my new Freya+, I was looking at some CV181-Z from Shuguang Treasure, but I believe those aren't rated as the same amount of power as the regular 6SN7s is that true? I believe they pull more power, so theoretically could do damage to the Freya board over time? I may be a misunderstanding that, but I believe they pull more power than the Freya is rated for.


----------



## Btarr

JollyGreen said:


> Can someone please link me the best socket savers that they've ever used?



https://www.ebay.com/itm/283301306810?_trkparms=amclksrc=ITM&aid=111001&algo=REC.SEED&ao=1&asc=20160811114145&meid=290285081e194a2cb4e87e5eb4d617c3&pid=100667&rk=1&rkt=1&sd=283301306810&itm=283301306810&pmt=1&noa=1&pg=2334524&_trksid=p2334524.c100667.m2042
This worked for me.   $10.77 each, but they do the trick.


----------



## JollyGreen

Does anyone know if the quality of socket savers matters, or if bad ones affect sound quality? I don't mind paying a premium if they aren't cheap Chinese made plastic.


----------



## JollyGreen

I found some here: 

https://pulsetubestore.com/products...on-base-not-made-in-china-everybody-needs-one

I don't mind spending $80 bucks for vibration reduction and non-chinese made plastic. These look like good Octals if you guys need some for your Freya+


----------



## rawheadjim

I got my Freya+ a few weeks ago and it came with JJs, which are definitely not good.  I already replaced those with some new Tung Sols while the good stuff arrives.  I also ordered a few others including these which are in the gain stage with only a few hours of listening time, so far, so good!  CBS Hytron 6SN7GT VACUUM TUBES Bad Boy Plate 105% NOS Matched PLATINUM PLUS 1955

Who is the trusted ebay seller you got these from?  Used Sylvania 6SN7GTA Angled T Plate from a recommended seller on eBay. These are Platinum Matched on AT10000.


----------



## lokerola

Pair of NOS vintage GE branded Marconi 6SN7's installed tonight. Thick on the bass side....still breaking in, but sounding good.


----------



## lokerola

Also added a Schiit Magni Heresy using the second set of outputs from the Freya. Nice to have a headphone output from the Freya.


----------



## lokerola

JollyGreen said:


> Does anyone know if the quality of socket savers matters, or if bad ones affect sound quality? I don't mind paying a premium if they aren't cheap Chinese made plastic.



I ordered mine from Antique Electronic Supply. They fit perfect in my Freya. 

https://www.tubesandmore.com/products/socket-saver-8-pin-reducing-wear-and-tear-tube-sockets


----------



## GPJ7 (Feb 2, 2022)

Just wanted to show the socket savers I am using. I ordered them from a Russian e bay seller and they are very nicely constructed. Ceramic PL8-1K. They really look nice and I like the flat plate look of them installed in the Freya+ ................ Look for
1x NOVIK TUBE SOCKET SAVER CERAMIC PRO1 - FOR 8PIN OCTAL TUBES 6L6 6V6 6SN7 EL34​
IMO well worth the money.


----------



## jonathan c

GPJ7 said:


> Just wanted to show the socket savers I am using. I ordered them from a Russian e bay seller and they are very nicely constructed. Ceramic PL8-1K. They really look nice and I like the flat plate look of them installed in the Freya. ................ Look for
> 1x NOVIK TUBE SOCKET SAVER CERAMIC PRO1 - FOR 8PIN OCTAL TUBES 6L6 6V6 6SN7 EL34​
> IMO well worth the money.


Very nice! Not only are the sockets ‘saved’ from wear-‘n-tear, but the amplifier also cools more efficiently.


----------



## rawheadjim

I just ordered some of those black plastic looking socket savers from someone else on ebay, and I couldn't use them at all.  The holes for the pins were so tight, I could never get a tube in.  It felt like I was going to break the circuit board if I pressed any harder, so those are going in the trash!  I will look for these and order right away, thanks for the heads up!


----------



## haweckO (Feb 7, 2022)

Hi guys, 

let me ask you,
which headphone-amp & headphones are you using with Freya + ?

I am curious, if you can hear some hum/buzz/hiss from this Schiit pre-amp, when you use some efficient headphones (not IEMs)


----------



## Balthazar B (Feb 7, 2022)

haweckO said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> let me ask you,
> which headphone-amp & headphones are you using with Freya + ?
> ...



Re. questions about potential noise, there will be a few variables at work, including:

Running in tube or SS mode?
If with tubes, which ones?

Output single-ended or balanced?
Input single-ended or balanced?
Are there any ground loop issues?
There are a lot of things that can put noise into the signal path. Once there, it'll be carried all the way to your ears. Generally speaking, in itself the Freya operates as an exceedingly quiet preamp, unless the installed tubes are inherently noisy/microphonic.


----------



## haweckO

@Balthazar B I mean in tube mode, single-ended input <-> single ended output, stock tubes.

I want to use Freya with my THX789 which is totally quiet amp, so I am curious about any noise which could be potentionaly present. As power filter I use Niagara 1200.


----------



## JollyGreen

Has anyone (please please please) know where I can find some of those SUPER rare 6SN7GTB Amperex "Made in Holland" black base, orange writing, tubes from? I LOVE the sound of them, Amperex never made tubes in Holland, so I don't know who made them for them, but I cannot find them in stock ANYWHERE and I'm willing to pay a pretty penny for them. 

Here is a link to see which ones I mean 

https://www.worldtubecompany.com/mm...ode=WTC&Product_Code=6SN7GTBAN&Category_Code=

PLEASE HELP, I'm willing to pay you a finders fee


----------



## Balthazar B

haweckO said:


> @Balthazar B I mean in tube mode, single-ended input <-> single ended output, stock tubes.
> 
> I want to use Freya with my THX789 which is totally quiet amp, so I am curious about any noise which could be potentionaly present. As power filter I use Niagara 1200.



I think you should ask in the main Schiit thread. Way more eyes would see it there, and lots of people who would be able to address your question from experience. I'd surmise, though, that most folks who get a Freya+ swap out at least the gain tubes from stock soon after purchase.


----------



## lokerola

Balthazar B said:


> Re. questions about potential noise, there will be a few variables at work, including:
> 
> Running in tube or SS mode?
> If with tubes, which ones?
> ...


I have a Schiit Magni Heresy connected to the second set of outputs on the back of the Freya. Listening with basic Sony MDR 7506’s. I use the tube buffer and I have no noise in the signal path.


----------



## paradoxper

haweckO said:


> @Balthazar B I mean in tube mode, single-ended input <-> single ended output, stock tubes.
> 
> I want to use Freya with my THX789 which is totally quiet amp, so I am curious about any noise which could be potentionaly present. As power filter I use Niagara 1200.


You will have zero noise until you start rolling some tubes.


----------



## JollyGreen

Just picked up some new Shunguan Treasures CV181-Z and some never used NOS quad matched 6H8C that are identical in build to the very elusive (and beautiful sounding) "Made in Holland" Amperex 6SN7GTB with the black base and orange text that are IMPOSSIBLE to find anywhere. 

Can't wait to start breaking these in


----------



## Miquifaye music (Feb 20, 2022)

Dueprocess said:


> FYI: Freya+ has significantly reduced noise over Freya (I've had both). No idea how Saga compares to Freya+, but I have heard great things about Saga. (I also require balanced, so Freya+ it is for me.)


my original Freya has no audible noise even  with ear is inches away from speaker in either mode. I don't believe the reduced noise level in Freya+ is that significant. my speakers are 93db efficient.


----------



## Mike-WI

Miquifaye music said:


> my original Freya has no audible noise even  with ear is inches away from speaker in either mode. I don't believe the reduced noise level in Freya+ is that significant. my speakers are 93db efficient.


If you didn't hear noise with Freya and the Freya+ has a significant decrease in noise, the expectation is that you wouldn't be able to tell.
Other people with other systems might.


----------



## JollyGreen

Can anyone tell me if Freya tube break-in can be done just powered on, or does music need to be running through the tubes for "break-in"? 

The Freya+ gets SUPER hot after even an hour, how did you guys break in tubes? I've got some Black Treasure CV181-Z which I've heard can take HUNDREDS of hours to open up and I just can't imagine doing that organically


----------



## JollyGreen

It doesn't appear that this thread is being monitored or updated anymore, but if anyone can help me translate some Amplitrex readouts for tubes i would appreciate it.


----------



## belgiangenius

Mike-WI said:


> If you didn't hear noise with Freya and the Freya+ has a significant decrease in noise, the expectation is that you wouldn't be able to tell.
> Other people with other systems might.



I found my original Freya to be quite noisy.   There was always some level of background static, even with quiet tubes.

Freya+ was a BIG improvement.


----------



## Miquifaye music

belgiangenius said:


> I found my original Freya to be quite noisy.   There was always some level of background static, even with quiet tubes.
> 
> Freya+ was a BIG improvement.


i've read some people have had that issue. mine is very  quiet. i have to put my ears on the tweeters to hear anything. i've asked a couple of my audiophile buddies who have the OG FREYA  to check for noise in their systems and they have same experience as myself. weird...


----------



## Balthazar B

JollyGreen said:


> It doesn't appear that this thread is being monitored or updated anymore, but if anyone can help me translate some Amplitrex readouts for tubes i would appreciate it.


@Paladin79 might be able to help you with that...


----------



## PoMarantz

JollyGreen said:


> Just picked up some new Shunguan Treasures CV181-Z and some never used NOS quad matched 6H8C that are identical in build to the very elusive (and beautiful sounding) "Made in Holland" Amperex 6SN7GTB with the black base and orange text that are IMPOSSIBLE to find anywhere.
> 
> Can't wait to start breaking these in


So...how are those new tubes sounding. I am getting a new McIntosh Amp this week...and I think I would like to try another set of NOS Tubes......


----------



## JollyGreen

PoMarantz said:


> So...how are those new tubes sounding. I am getting a new McIntosh Amp this week...and I think I would like to try another set of NOS Tubes......


Still in the break in period, but sounding good. If I'm being honest I've found some of my dream tubes and I can't wait to take these out now lol. 

I will likely move the CV181-Z treasures to the left side and put the new Amperex 6SN7GTB "made in Holland" in the gain side once they get here.


----------



## PoMarantz

JollyGreen said:


> Still in the break in period, but sounding good. If I'm being honest I've found some of my dream tubes and I can't wait to take these out now lol.
> 
> I will likely move the CV181-Z treasures to the left side and put the new Amperex 6SN7GTB "made in Holland" in the gain side once they get here.


I am interested to hear specifics in the sound characteristics and differences in your tubes.


----------



## MacMan31

JollyGreen said:


> Just picked up some new Shunguan Treasures CV181-Z and some never used NOS quad matched 6H8C that are identical in build to the very elusive (and beautiful sounding) "Made in Holland" Amperex 6SN7GTB with the black base and orange text that are IMPOSSIBLE to find anywhere.
> 
> Can't wait to start breaking these in



There is a set of these CV181-Z up for grabs on CAM (Canuck Audio Mart). They are $200 for the pair. I would not be using them in a Freya+ but in a Saga+ (on the way) and Lyr 3. Any initial impressions on these tubes? Worth the price?


----------



## JollyGreen

MacMan31 said:


> There is a set of these CV181-Z up for grabs on CAM (Canuck Audio Mart). They are $200 for the pair. I would not be using them in a Freya+ but in a Saga+ (on the way) and Lyr 3. Any initial impressions on these tubes? Worth the price?


The consensus is they take a good long time to burn in and settle down and open up. But I have been enjoying them so far.


----------



## MacMan31

JollyGreen said:


> The consensus is they take a good long time to burn in and settle down and open up. But I have been enjoying them so far.



Okay. The Saga Plus I am getting is including 14 tubes. So I will have many to try out in both the Saga+ and Lyr 3.


----------



## Paladin79

MacMan31 said:


> Okay. The Saga Plus I am getting is including 14 tubes. So I will have many to try out in both the Saga+ and Lyr 3.


I have some experience with 6sn7's and equivalents if I may be of help. Fortunately I was able to get favorite Russian Melz tubes before shipment to the US became iffy.


----------



## Paladin79

JollyGreen said:


> The consensus is they take a good long time to burn in and settle down and open up. But I have been enjoying them so far.


One of those ended up in the top 52 of 1500 tubes friends and I tested, not in the top ten but decent all the same.


----------



## MacMan31

Paladin79 said:


> I have some experience with 6sn7's and equivalents if I may be of help. Fortunately I was able to get favorite Russian Melz tubes before shipment to the US became iffy.



This is what I am getting which includes all the tubes pictured. https://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/649831328-schiit-saga-plus/


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 4, 2022)

MacMan31 said:


> This is what I am getting which includes all the tubes pictured. https://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/649831328-schiit-saga-plus/


The Raytheon and the two Jan tubes in the upper right corner show the most promise to me. I have heard some Canadian Marconis and they are decent.

Jason at Schiit used some of my 6sn7's in a blind shoot out and used four Saga's, he warned me though that is a buffer stage, a Lyr 3 might give you a better indication of the differences in tubes. I use an amp of my own design for 6sn7 comparisons but I am currently listening to two Raytheons and two CBS/Hytron 5692's in a Freya plus going into my Cary tube amp. I am happy with that sound. 

I am having company this weekend at that time I will pop some 1954 Melz into the right side of the Freya, and most likely Tung Sol black glass round plate into the left side. That blend is a little expensive to run all the time, so I save it for special occasions and it is magical, IMHO.


----------



## khashmi

Paladin79 said:


> The Raytheon and the two Jan tubes in the upper right corner show the most promise to me. I have heard some Canadian Marconis and they are decent.
> 
> Jason at Schiit used some of my 6sn7's in a blind shoot out and used four Saga's, he warned me though that is a buffer stage, a Lyr 3 might give you a better indication of the differences in tubes. I use an amp of my own design for 6sn7 comparisons but I am currently listening to two Raytheons and two CBS/Hytron 5692's in a Freya plus going into my Cary tube amp. I am happy with that sound.
> 
> I am having company this weekend at that time I will pop some 1954 Melz into the right side of the Freya, and most likely Tung Sol black glass round plate into the left side. That blend is a little expensive to run all the time, so I save it for special occasions and it is magical, IMHO.


Paladin,

First of all, thanks for helping reviving this old thread and providing your feedback.  I still recall going through all 150 plus pages as I immersed myself in to the world of NOS tubes.  Currently building up my stockpile of VT-231 variants, first with the RCA VT-231 Grey Glass (1943), Sylvania VT-231 (1945), and just arrived today KenRad VT-231 (1944).  I also have the 1950‘s CBS Hytron 5692.

I am aware of the cache the 1578 Melz has in this group.  The very fact that you’re putting the Tung-Sol bgrp in the left side speaks volumes of how highly it is regarded. Both the TS and Melz are extremely challenging to find and or super expensive (one guys who has several pairs of Melz told me that he wouldn’t take anything less than $1000 for a matched pair, which was basically his way of saying he does not with to part with them).  Makes me wish I got in to this hobby years ago.  Ironically (if I’m remembering this corrrectly), the Melz didn’t fare so well in the Schiit shootout but just goes to show you this hobby is so system dependent.  

Hopefully, we can get to still engage in meaningful tube discussions for the new breed of Saga and Freya owners.  Cheers!


----------



## Paladin79

khashmi said:


> Paladin,
> 
> First of all, thanks for helping reviving this old thread and providing your feedback.  I still recall going through all 150 plus pages as I immersed myself in to the world of NOS tubes.  Currently building up my stockpile of VT-231 variants, first with the RCA VT-231 Grey Glass (1943), Sylvania VT-231 (1945), and just arrived today KenRad VT-231 (1944).  I also have the 1950‘s CBS Hytron 5692.
> 
> ...


I am not so sure that the Schiit shootout was very indicative. The first person I sent 8 tubes to concealed in PVC was @bcowen and he taught me a lot about a person's ability to differentiate between tubes and he used a Lyr 3. Tubes can be very amp sensitive so I set out to design a revealing amp, Mr. was among the first people I sent it to for his opinion.
Bill got me interested in the Melz and I began buying all kinds of them but a few types I like the best are super rare. I own several series of various types and some of those are about all I listen to in my own amps lol. Luckily my last order from December arrived from Russia early this week. Getting more tubes will not be easy and Ebay has marked some Russian vendors as not shipping to the US. 

An interesting thing is that if I put four of my favorite Melz in a Freya plus it is overkill, I have to balance those with other tubes to be happy about the outcome.


----------



## rawheadjim

I agree 100%!  I'm a new Freya+ owner and continually skip around on this thread, as well as the 6SN7 reference thread.  The advice I've received has already steered me to some great tubes, and away from some potential not so great ones.  I've learned a lot already, but have a long way to go!  The experienced guys on here have forgotten way more than I can ever learn.  

I got in too late to be a tube collector, I just want a decent number of the best tubes I can afford for my listening pleasure, and enough options to last me through retirement! The way tube prices are going up, I need to get all I can before I retire for sure.


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 4, 2022)

I have more Melz in my shop, here are a few.
 1953 to 1963 here, some of my favorites.
@sam6550a knows the 1958 solid plate 1578 type.


----------



## khashmi

Paladin79 said:


> I have more Melz in my shop, here are a few. 1953 to 1963 here, some of my favorites.
> @sam6550a knows the 1958 solid plate 1578 type.


Nice! Assuming you received them in white boxes and just utilized your own Westinghouse boxes to store it? 

If you ever felt that you had one pair too many and wanted to get rid of one set, please let me know, lol!


----------



## rawheadjim

Same here please!  Although I don't know if I'm worthy of Melz yet.


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 4, 2022)

khashmi said:


> Nice! Assuming you received them in white boxes and just utilized your own Westinghouse boxes to store it?
> 
> If you ever felt that you had one pair too many and wanted to get rid of one set, please let me know, lol!


I received most all in original Melz boxes but used the Westinghouse boxes since they are new.

I have been known to send a Melz out as a sample to be returned to me but I rarely sell them. I even included a couple with a loaner Incubus amp I just sent out.


----------



## ChrisPDX

Regarding socket savers ... anyone have thoughts on these two different style of tube pin connectors? One more likely to make it difficult to remove the tube? Thanks.

A -- *round holes*





B -- *slotted holes


*


----------



## Paladin79

ChrisPDX said:


> Regarding socket savers ... anyone have thoughts on these two different style of tube pin connectors? One more likely to make it difficult to remove the tube? Thanks.
> 
> A -- *round holes*
> 
> ...


I use both styles but prefer the second. They are easier to tighten as the contacts get spread apart. Not all tube pins are the same diameter so you best be able to adjust them as you roll tubes. 😁


----------



## inmytaxi

I have two kinds of tube savers, eight cost the same as two of the other. The expensive one is in a box being saved for 'really good tubes' and the cheapies are the ones i use day in day out.  

I'm an idiot.


----------



## paradoxper

I never rolled the DIY T2 to the same degree, but this is certainly hitting all the pleasure zones in many more ways. I've probably dumped 5x the Freya cost but how immensely it has rewarded.

A real tour de force of fun


----------



## Progmeister (Mar 16, 2022)

I use this pre amp and pretty pleased with it sonically. To minimise the microphonic nature of the casing i have placed i have placed a small sand bag on it. Some great tips here with regards to tubes. Many thanks for that. I find the pre amp whilst in tube mode very susceptible to footfall which inturn causes hum until i power the amp down a switch back on.


----------



## Mike-WI

Progmeister said:


> I use this pre amp and pretty pleased with it sonically. To minimise the microphonic nature of the casing i have placed i have placed a small sand bag on it. Some great tips here with regards to tubes. Many thanks for that. I find the pre amp whilst in tube mode very susceptible to footfall which inturn causes hum until i power the amp down a switch back on.


This may be a cheap, less sandy alternative weight.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07QW4VFC...colid=ASCGVK81DEVL&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it


----------



## Paladin79

Progmeister said:


> I use this pre amp and pretty pleased with it sonically. To minimise the microphonic nature of the casing i have placed i have placed a small sand bag on it. Some great tips here with regards to tubes. Many thanks for that. I find the pre amp whilst in tube mode very susceptible to footfall which inturn causes hum until i power the amp down a switch back on.


I try to add extra weight to tube amps I build in order to provide a sturdy platform. I also have my main stereo on a tiled floor in my downstairs so foot fall is not a factor.



This is a solid copper top with one inch thick hardwood, heavy but stable. All shelves in the rack are 3/4 inch solid cherry with copper supports. I added patina to all copper.


----------



## khashmi

Interesting. I’ve observed several folks using weights to negate any vibrations but that is not something I’ve experienced yet. 

I also noticed earlier in the thread that a member is using the blue Sophia electric 6sn7. Damn, it looks stunning. My very preliminary research suggests that while it’s good tube, it has some reliability issues. Any truth to that? Wonder how it compares to other new production tubes like the EH, psvane, and shuguang treasures.


----------



## ChrisPDX

Mike-WI said:


> This may be a cheap, less sandy alternative weight.
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07QW4VFC...colid=ASCGVK81DEVL&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it


Would  you have any concerns about the rubber/plastic bottom of that weight getting soft or melting while sitting on the surprisingly hot surface of the Freya (in tube mode) for extended periods ?


----------



## Mike-WI

ChrisPDX said:


> Would  you have any concerns about the rubber/plastic bottom of that weight getting soft or melting while sitting on the surprisingly hot surface of the Freya (in tube mode) for extended periods ?


Good question. I haven't heard/seen of that from anyone.


----------



## normie610

paradoxper said:


> I never rolled the DIY T2 to the same degree, but this is certainly hitting all the pleasure zones in many more ways. I've probably dumped 5x the Freya cost but how immensely it has rewarded.
> 
> A real tour de force of fun


Have you tried Linlai Elite 6SN7? I just got the 6SL7 version and they sound damn good with my preamp (not a Freya though).


----------



## paradoxper (Mar 17, 2022)

normie610 said:


> Have you tried Linlai Elite 6SN7? I just got the 6SL7 version and they sound damn good with my preamp (not a Freya though).


I have the Treasure and Treasure II from both Shuguang and Psvane, I decided to skip the Elite due to the duplicate nature across these 3 companies, however, I am aware the 845/805 Elite are far more popular and thus gives some curiosity. I will likely spend the month trying to actively stockpile the MELZ 1578, afterwards, I will circle back to the Elite which should also serve as enough time to further break-in Treasured impressions.

Give some impressions to bring extra motivation please.


----------



## normie610

paradoxper said:


> Give some impressions to bring extra motivation please.


Well bear in mind that this is the 6SL7 😁 To my ears they sound very similar to RCA 5691 red base, but the treble is just a touch smoother & more refined. They are very transparent sounding, notes are a bit faster & well defined, with less bloom. I’d say they’re more “modern” sounding tubes but still has that euphonic tube character.


----------



## paradoxper

normie610 said:


> Well bear in mind that this is the 6SL7 😁 To my ears they sound very similar to RCA 5691 red base, but the treble is just a touch smoother & more refined. They are very transparent sounding, notes are a bit faster & well defined, with less bloom. I’d say they’re more “modern” sounding tubes but still has that euphonic tube character.


Ok. Any high frequency roll off? Had any experience with the Treasure 6SL7?


----------



## normie610

paradoxper said:


> Ok. Any high frequency roll off? Had any experience with the Treasure 6SL7?


No high frequency roll off and I haven’t heard the Treasure.


----------



## paradoxper

normie610 said:


> No high frequency roll off and I haven’t heard the Treasure.


These sound more inline with the Treasure II. Great sound but also particular.


----------



## normie610

paradoxper said:


> These sound more inline with the Treasure II. Great sound but also particular.


Yeah very possible, since the team at Linlai previously worked at PS Vane.


----------



## paradoxper

normie610 said:


> Yeah very possible, since the team at Linlai previously worked at PS Vane.


Engineered at Shuguang, left for Psvane, bought TJ, founded Linlai. They're all the same team engineered tube. Ha.


----------



## khashmi

paradoxper said:


> I have the Treasure and Treasure II from both Shuguang and Psvane, I decided to skip the Elite due to the duplicate nature across these 3 companies, however, I am aware the 845/805 Elite are far more popular and thus gives some curiosity. I will likely spend the month trying to actively stockpile the MELZ 1578, afterwards, I will circle back to the Elite which should also serve as enough time to further break-in Treasured impressions.
> 
> Give some impressions to bring extra motivation please.


I’m in the market for the 1578 as well but haven’t located a reliable source. 
Any tips on this front?


----------



## paradoxper (Mar 17, 2022)

khashmi said:


> I’m in the market for the 1578 as well but haven’t located a reliable source.
> Any tips on this front?


You need to know what you're looking for to avoid counterfeits. There are no reliable sources due to the sanctions, so the wild west of the internet is your crawling ground.

You'll also need to identify what variant you want; there are prized perforated hole and standard and the unicorn solid plate which I've never heard.
The Fotons and OTK are available and reportedly very good.

You can expect to pay $300-500 minimum for a pair of the perforated for reference. The market is stupid.


----------



## sam6550a

paradoxper said:


> You need to know what you're looking for to avoid counterfeits. There are no reliable sources due to the sanctions, so the wild west of the internet is your crawling ground.
> 
> You'll also need to identify what variant you want; there are prized perforated hole and standard and the unicorn solid plate which I've never heard.
> The Fotons and OTK are available and reportedly very good.
> ...


If you are an inexperienced buyer, ask for help. The frauds  and counterfeiters are very active!!!!!!


----------



## Progmeister

I think the microphonic nature of the casing on the Schiit Freya II is the thing that needs addressing most. i use some Usher feet and a sandbag to reduce resonance. I would like to know if anyone has connected a HPA to the Pre-out on this amp and if so did they experience any hum?


----------



## paradoxper (Mar 18, 2022)

to a nth degree


----------



## khashmi

paradoxper said:


> to a nth degree


Wow, nice!


----------



## rawheadjim

Those tubes are probably worth 2-3x the cost of a Freya+!!!


----------



## mantraone

rawheadjim said:


> Those tubes are probably worth 2-3x the cost of a Freya+!!!


Really? Tell me which tubes are?


----------



## rawheadjim

Sorry, lack of experience, thought they were Melz...


----------



## paradoxper

They are the MELZ 1578 perforated (5 hole) plate.


----------



## GPJ7

Paladin79 said:


> I try to add extra weight to tube amps I build in order to provide a sturdy platform. I also have my main stereo on a tiled floor in my downstairs so foot fall is not a factor.
> 
> 
> 
> This is a solid copper top with one inch thick hardwood, heavy but stable. All shelves in the rack are 3/4 inch solid cherry with copper supports. I added patina to all copper.



The ultimate Crack ... a.k.a. *Cuprous Magnifico*


----------



## belgiangenius

paradoxper said:


> They are the MELZ 1578 perforated (5 hole) plate.



I have two of these.  I find them very neutral and I actually prefer them in the buffer position with Raytheon VT231 in the gain position.


----------



## Paladin79

GPJ7 said:


> The ultimate Crack ... a.k.a. *Cuprous Magnifico*


That is not a Bottlehead Crack, I have modded a few, that is an Incubus Elegan, my design based on the 6SN7.


----------



## Progmeister

belgiangenius said:


> I have two of these.  I find them very neutral and I actually prefer them in the buffer position with Raytheon VT231 in the gain position.


I'm using Brimar's in mine though i find them a little on the dry side. I may consider some of the options here.


----------



## Progmeister

Out of interest do most people use them with the tube mode with a headphone amp on the pre amp out or the passive mode?


----------



## Paladin79

I only use tube mode myself, other than DACS all of my gear is tube driven. Often I will run headphone amps straight from a DAC but I need the Freya for power amps.


----------



## Progmeister

Paladin79 said:


> I only use tube mode myself, other than DACS all of my gear is tube driven. Often I will run headphone amps straight from a DAC but I need the Freya for power amps.


Me too. However, I must try to think of a better way of configuration as I am concerned I forget to turn down the volume on the Freya when not using the headphone amp which is connected to the pre out phono's on the rear of the Freya.


----------



## paradoxper

Progmeister said:


> Out of interest do most people use them with the tube mode with a headphone amp on the pre amp out or the passive mode?


I have a Pass pre for my big system and am only using Freya with tubes for the magik with headphones.


----------



## jreg

Has anyone compared GTAs to GTBs of the same brand (from Sylvania, GE, RCA in particular) and noticed any appreciable difference?


----------



## Paladin79

As best I recall the B in gtb means slow warm up


----------



## khashmi

jreg said:


> Has anyone compared GTAs to GTBs of the same brand (from Sylvania, GE, RCA in particular) and noticed any appreciable difference?


I thought it was faster warm-up? From the first page of the reference 6sn7 thread:

6SN7GTA* - 'Upgrade' of 6SN7GT, max 450Volt Ua, 5W per system and 7.5W total. Hence tube better fulfills special requirements for TV sweep applications, like higher peak power and better impulse capabilities. 
If your amp is designed around this tube, you MAY NOT be able to substitute in other 6SN7 versions due to the higher ratings for this tube – check with your manufacturer. 
6SN7GTB* - Same as GTA, but with faster tube heat-up (11 seconds only). 
If your amp is designed around this tube, you MAY NOT be able to substitute in other 6SN7 versions due to the higher ratings for this tube – check with your manufacturer.

I have both Sylvania GTA and GTB (1950’s) and the GTB has been my mainstay in the cathode follower position, while I tested against higher rated tubes in gain.  The one time, I put the GTA in Gain (with the GTB still in cathode follower), it was the worst musical experience in my system.  Didn’t like that combo at all and it lasted less than a week.


----------



## jreg

khashmi said:


> I have both Sylvania GTA and GTB (1950’s) and the GTB has been my mainstay in the cathode follower position, while I tested against higher rated tubes in gain.  The one time, I put the GTA in Gain (with the GTB still in cathode follower), it was the worst musical experience in my system.  Didn’t like that combo at all and it lasted less than a week.



Interesting but curious considering the Sylvania tubes, though not often considered “best” seem to be well liked. Have you tried a quad of GTBs and if so how did you like that?

I’m on the hunt for a freya+ right now and in anticipation I’ve ordered matched pairs of GE & Sylvania GTAs and GTBs so hopefully I’ll get to play around with this myself soon.


----------



## wowsuchricky

Out of curiosity how do people find this amp in 2022? I've had it in my sights for awhile but have yet to dip into the Tube world yet.


----------



## khashmi

jreg said:


> Interesting but curious considering the Sylvania tubes, though not often considered “best” seem to be well liked. Have you tried a quad of GTBs and if so how did you like that?
> 
> I’m on the hunt for a freya+ right now and in anticipation I’ve ordered matched pairs of GE & Sylvania GTAs and GTBs so hopefully I’ll get to play around with this myself soon.


Only have a pair of both the GTA’s and GTB’s. Everything is system dependent. That said, I’ve heard it’s better to use something like a GE in cathode follower if using the Sylvania GTA or GTB in Gain. so you’re on to something here. 

I’ve generally reserved the Gain for the VT-231 or 5692 varieties with much success. Happy rollin!


----------



## jbua5150

So I tried rolling in some 6C8G into the gain stage and was greeted with a couple loud crackling noises upon raising the volume knob.  They did NOT  play well with my Freya +. 
I thought these are equivalent to 6SL7? 
They work great in my Woo Audio WA22. 
Oh well.  Back to trusty Sylvania JAN 6SN7WGTA.


----------



## rawheadjim

I've been testing the waters on my Freya+ with some 6SL7's since the price on those has not skyrocketed quite as much as it has on 6SN7's, and the manual says you can use them.  I actually have to crank the attenuator dial to about 3:00 to achieve mid to upper 70's in decibels for them, compared to around 2:00 for 6SN7's.  I haven't had any problems so far, I'm using different pairs of 6SL7's in the output and gain sides, since I don't have many to roll with.  

There is one distortion pop when I dial it right at 12:00 high, and sometimes one more pop as I go higher.  I'm pretty happy with the results vs price so far, they average about half the cost of what similar 6SN7's run, but there are nowhere near the same amount of options out there.  The best combo I've found are some Sylvania JAN VT-229's in the left side, with Ken-Rad JAN VT-229's in the right side.  I still haven't found any 6SL7's that match my pair of RCA JAN CRC-5692's however, those are definitely the best tubes I own, and were well worth the premium price I paid for them.


----------



## jbua5150

rawheadjim said:


> I've been testing the waters on my Freya+ with some 6SL7's since the price on those has not skyrocketed quite as much as it has on 6SN7's, and the manual says you can use them.  I actually have to crank the attenuator dial to about 3:00 to achieve mid to upper 70's in decibels for them, compared to around 2:00 for 6SN7's.  I haven't had any problems so far, I'm using different pairs of 6SL7's in the output and gain sides, since I don't have many to roll with.
> 
> There is one distortion pop when I dial it right at 12:00 high, and sometimes one more pop as I go higher.  I'm pretty happy with the results vs price so far, they average about half the cost of what similar 6SN7's run, but there are nowhere near the same amount of options out there.  The best combo I've found are some Sylvania JAN VT-229's in the left side, with Ken-Rad JAN VT-229's in the right side.  I still haven't found any 6SL7's that match my pair of RCA JAN CRC-5692's however, those are definitely the best tubes I own, and were well worth the premium price I paid for them.


These “distortion pops” you describe sound like what I heard with my 6C8G. 
I was also expecting MORE again than 6SN7, but found the volume knob needed to be much higher and was accompanied by those “pops”.  I immediately removed them.


----------



## paradoxper

wowsuchricky said:


> Out of curiosity how do people find this amp in 2022? I've had it in my sights for awhile but have yet to dip into the Tube world yet.


You must tube roll. 

I was able to compare the Freya with Cary SLP-98, PrimaLuna EVO 400 and Supratek Cabernet and what I really appreciate about the Freya is it doesn't impart an overt character particularly in richness. It was also an excellent exercise in how some 6SN7 complement synergy in one stage than the other, also makes it a bit cumbersome to equivocate comparative reach but I can say of all my gear, the Freya is offering that particular fitting piece of the puzzle.


----------



## dude120

Went to switch to tube stage this evening and the unit went dark. No lights, doesn't seem to power on.

I'm aware I can send the unit back to schiit, but before I end up paying for shipping to and from Schiit, has anyone else encountered this issue?

Could this be something like a blown fuse (not even sure if these have fuses)


----------



## GPJ7 (Apr 5, 2022)

dude120 said:


> Went to switch to tube stage this evening and the unit went dark. No lights, doesn't seem to power on.
> 
> I'm aware I can send the unit back to schiit, but before I end up paying for shipping to and from Schiit, has anyone else encountered this issue?
> 
> Could this be something like a blown fuse (not even sure if these have fuses)



Yes, there is a fuse. If you look at the photos of the pcb on the Schiit website, you will see a fuse right by the power switch. I don't believe it's meant for an end user to change especially under warranty.

However, I bought my Freya+ second hand and would absolutely take it apart to get at the fuse. I'd have no other choice. You have to be really careful if self attempted. The caps have a potential to kill and that it why Schiit discourages opening their units up. There should be no stored energy inside the unit before attempting to venture inside.


----------



## PoMarantz

GPJ7 said:


> Yes, there is a fuse. If you look at the photos of the pcb on the Schiit website, you will see a fuse right by the power switch. I don't believe it's meant for an end user to change especially under warranty.
> 
> However, I bought my Freya+ second hand and would absolutely take it apart to get at the fuse. I'd have no other choice. You have to be really careful if self attempted. The caps have a potential to kill and that it why Schiit discourages opening their units up. There should be no stored energy inside the unit before attempting to venture inside.


Hmmm…cool!…I just looked at the photo of the board on the Schiit website, and YES there is a fuse there plain as day and easy to change. Wonder if that is the problem, what made it blow?….possibly a problem with one of the tubes? I would love to know the fuse specs. I could have some handy for future reference.


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## GPJ7 (Apr 5, 2022)

Probably just a standard fuse and very easy to find. I really hope dude120's issue is the fuse and nothing major.

Or a great time to upgrade to an "audiophile grade" fuse ....LOL


----------



## PoMarantz (Apr 5, 2022)

Fuse: standard?…fuses have size, type and a name (number). They can be very hard to find sometimes.
There is no "standard" fuses….trust me! 🤓
Audiophile fuse??? Noooooooooooooo! 🙂


----------



## GPJ7

oh c'mon man .... can always use a penny bridge .....


----------



## PoMarantz

True!
You go first and tell me how it works out! 🔥


----------



## inmytaxi (Apr 8, 2022)

You guys see those Raytheon on ebay? Two for 116 with GREY PLATES that would look bad ass on a Freya in silver.  A little pricey for me these days but I keep saying ,this is the last time. So, anyone know how these tall boy, 60s look like offset or maybe not offset flat plates, sound?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/203829527088?_trkparms=ispr=1&hash=item2f752fc230:gz8AAOSw9PhiBvgi&amdata=enc:AQAGAAAA4BRJWHySZuLCeQyoa4ROp7NKwXcsbDwyVRzG9UOffQ5Rg1Mey4Iitz08TBHwW6g54T2+kXt2HUTTkUmQpaxOflMYRtAwudrtvuXcLPskS9JVpYH4770ToVvR/qzqCo1KL+mSJNumLki8fVR+kh9tr7yVk9vj6KPPMIuKagzY6zNa01nF6tggL0BZhMzjY+oVGfD3tPnnLOfVOosSERSz26mJeOfECrma0qrl2zPB45ZOi/HLdGsrAfNLwkzMctLtClK6HJoBiDxiVh5y7mQlVWM5n+sJXsMw2rW9HZR4N4I8|tkp:BFBM5Lvc-4Bg


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## rawheadjim

I bought a pair just like them for $85 in January, before prices went crazy, so $116 isn't all that bad.  I haven't had a chance to roll them into the Freya+ yet, but I will try to do that and respond.


----------



## inmytaxi

rawheadjim said:


> I bought a pair just like them for $85 in January, before prices went crazy, so $116 isn't all that bad.  I haven't had a chance to roll them into the Freya+ yet, but I will try to do that and respond.


I'd appreciate that. I keep finding great new tubes and saying, one last time!


----------



## rawheadjim

In my limited research on this thread and Steve Hoffman forums, the Raytheon's didn't seem to get quite the same rave reviews as several other brands/types.  So far I have found nothing I can afford that compares to my CBS/RCA 5692's, they do everything so much better than all the others I've tried.  I was blessed to be offered those from someone on this forum.  Not cheap, but very well worth it and a relative bargain for the $300 price I was able to purchase them for. 

I'm still trying to learn about Melz but now is not the best time for rookies like me to find those.  I'm plugging the Raytheon's in soon so I will let you know how mine sound! Of course it's so relative, given everything else that's part of your system or my system.


----------



## rawheadjim

Well, I played a couple of songs that I test every pair of tubes on, and these Raytheon's didn't blow me away.  I wouldn't kick them out of bed, but I wouldn't want to spend a weekend with them either.  They just had a little less of everything, nothing was bad, but they didn't do anything stellar either.  The highs were not quite as high, there was a little less bass, and the vocals were not as pronounced.  

The soundstage was definitely not as tall as I get from most other tubes.  I've actually done better with less expensive 6SL7's, despite them having to be cranked a little higher with the occasional pops.  It depends on what other tubes you have or want, but I don't know that I would be thrilled at $116 for a pair, I'm not ecstatic at paying $85 for mine.  I would save for better like Tung-Sols or 5692's, or try some 6SL7's for the price of the Raytheon's.  That is just my opinion on my system, so take it for what it's worth.


----------



## jbua5150

rawheadjim said:


> Well, I played a couple of songs that I test every pair of tubes on, and these Raytheon's didn't blow me away.  I wouldn't kick them out of bed, but I wouldn't want to spend a weekend with them either.  They just had a little less of everything, nothing was bad, but they didn't do anything stellar either.  The highs were not quite as high, there was a little less bass, and the vocals were not as pronounced.
> 
> The soundstage was definitely not as tall as I get from most other tubes.  I've actually done better with less expensive 6SL7's, despite them having to be cranked a little higher with the occasional pops.  It depends on what other tubes you have or want, but I don't know that I would be thrilled at $116 for a pair, I'm not ecstatic at paying $85 for mine.  I would save for better like Tung-Sols or 5692's, or try some 6SL7's for the price of the Raytheon's.  That is just my opinion on my system, so take it for what it's worth.


These "pops" you hear, do they happen when the volume is increased?  
I rolled some 6C8G and noticed I needed more volume to reach a listenable level, and "pops" when I increased the volume knob.  
The lower volume is odd to me, as the 6C8G in place of 6SN7 on my Woo Audio WA22 provides MORE gain.


----------



## rawheadjim

I hear one pop even using 6SN7's, when you turn the Freya+ on or it warms up, or if you change modes.  With 6SL7's I've tried, I hear a pop when the attenuator knob passes the 12:00 position, and maybe one more around 3:00.


----------



## jbua5150

rawheadjim said:


> I hear one pop even using 6SN7's, when you turn the Freya+ on or it warms up, or if you change modes.  With 6SL7's I've tried, I hear a pop when the attenuator knob passes the 12:00 position, and maybe one more around 3:00.


That's interesting.  I have zero pops with 6SN7 of any variety.
I think the pops that I heard with 6C8G were near the same positions on the attenuator.


----------



## PoMarantz

Hmmm…I have had my Freya+ since launch. I use the stock tubes in the buffer, and GE NOS in the gain stage.
I always run in tube mode. I have NEVER hear a pop until this week when I was streaming Amazon HD.. I was in my kitchen (not touching the volume),…and MAN, was it loud!  I thought something blew up…but everything was just fine. Not a peep since.
I think it MUST have been a tube pop. Not sure.


----------



## rawheadjim

I don't think I've had any combination so far, that didn't present at least one pop when the tube warmup period ended.  The most pops I've heard so far, were with new production Tung Sol 6SN7's in the left output side, not in the right gain side.  They had so many pops while listening at the same volume, I though my new vinyl record was defective!  I only used them for a couple of LPs before I realized it was those Tung Sol's, so they won't see any more use.


----------



## GPJ7

PoMarantz said:


> Hmmm…I have had my Freya+ since launch. I use the stock tubes in the buffer, and GE NOS in the gain stage.
> I always run in tube mode. I have NEVER hear a pop until this week when I was streaming Amazon HD.. I was in my kitchen (not touching the volume),…and MAN, was it loud!  I thought something blew up…but everything was just fine. Not a peep since.
> I think it MUST have been a tube pop. Not sure.



I haven't experienced a single pop with my Freya+ and it's always in tube mode. Running the new issue Tung Sols, and many other 6SN7's. Maybe one pop with my Bottlehead amps in 8 years and one nasty pop like you experienced in a Woo Audio WA2 (surely something got destroyed I thought but nope, all OK). I think it's always a good idea to not plug in for about 10 minutes which I always try to practice.


----------



## paradoxper (Apr 11, 2022)

I also haven't experienced popping running 6SN7, 6SL7 nor ECC32-_CV181. _


----------



## GPJ7

The ebay seller of those really nice ceramic tube socket saver has a new partner account on eBay if anyone cares.

https://www.ebay.com/usr/maktsar_51

I posted a while back here about these. They are excellent!

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/sch...-rolling-thread.832177/page-151#post-16795592


----------



## inmytaxi

AudioPoll said:


> Hi guys, I registered here because it looks like this forum is the primary online forum for Schiit gear.
> 
> In regards to the Freya, does anyone else feel that it's a failure? Lack of musical engagement. Has anyone else noticed this?


Schiit? Of all the criticisms I can think of (for one, they're communists who don't understand the profit motive) not engaging is the opposite of what most consider 'the Schiit sound'.


----------



## ChrisPDX

GPJ7 said:


> Just wanted to show the socket savers I am using. I ordered them from a Russian e bay seller and they are very nicely constructed. Ceramic PL8-1K. They really look nice and I like the flat plate look of them installed in the Freya+ ................ Look for
> 1x NOVIK TUBE SOCKET SAVER CERAMIC PRO1 - FOR 8PIN OCTAL TUBES 6L6 6V6 6SN7 EL34​
> IMO well worth the money.


I'm curious ... with the top of the socket savers falling below the top surface of the Freya's chassis, how do you remove the tubes without also removing the socket savers (which defeats the purpose of the savers) ?


----------



## paradoxper

ChrisPDX said:


> I'm curious ... with the top of the socket savers falling below the top surface of the Freya's chassis, how do you remove the tubes without also removing the socket savers (which defeats the purpose of the savers) ?


A nimble finger allows you to keep the saver in place while swapping tubes out.


----------



## GPJ7 (Apr 19, 2022)

ChrisPDX said:


> I'm curious ... with the top of the socket savers falling below the top surface of the Freya's chassis, how do you remove the tubes without also removing the socket savers (which defeats the purpose of the savers) ?



The top of the saver is nearly even with the top. I use a small wooden ice cream bar stick filed down into a wedge. Just wiggle the tube slightly and the wedge goes right between to hold the saver down while removing the tube. Works perfectly.

I don't change tubes frequently but did the savers mainly to get additional heat out of the interior and I like the look of the tubes outside of the preamp.


----------



## inmytaxi

rawheadjim said:


> Well, I played a couple of songs that I test every pair of tubes on, and these Raytheon's didn't blow me away.  I wouldn't kick them out of bed, but I wouldn't want to spend a weekend with them either.  They just had a little less of everything, nothing was bad, but they didn't do anything stellar either.  The highs were not quite as high, there was a little less bass, and the vocals were not as pronounced.
> 
> The soundstage was definitely not as tall as I get from most other tubes.  I've actually done better with less expensive 6SL7's, despite them having to be cranked a little higher with the occasional pops.  It depends on what other tubes you have or want, but I don't know that I would be thrilled at $116 for a pair, I'm not ecstatic at paying $85 for mine.  I would save for better like Tung-Sols or 5692's, or try some 6SL7's for the price of the Raytheon's.  That is just my opinion on my system, so take it for what it's worth.


Thanks, it's enough. I haven't been hugely impressed by the RCA ladders I have, I mean they're fine, as you say though many others do better for my ears. I'll pass, they probably don't look that great in person anyway.  I just loved how they look in the ad!


----------



## rawheadjim

I like that "audiophile ice cream spoon device," I've been pulling my savers out stuck to the tubes for the same reason.  I was a little more concerned that my vintage expensive tubes might loosen, crack, or have the center pin break, more than wearing out the sockets in my Freya+.  I may try a plastic bicycle tire tool, it has a similar wedge.


----------



## jbua5150

ChrisPDX said:


> I'm curious ... with the top of the socket savers falling below the top surface of the Freya's chassis, how do you remove the tubes without also removing the socket savers (which defeats the purpose of the savers) ?


"Socket Savers" are a generic term for these.  True "socket savers" are used typically on tube testers, and have a screw that would attach them to the tester. (as in photo)

There are other reasons to use them.

I feel socket savers are a MUST on Freya.
Without socket savers, one has to remove the tubes by the glass.
Probably ok with current production tubes, but any OLD tubes may have VERY old glue.
I have some pairs from 1943 and 1944. That glue is nearly 80 years old, I WILL NOT pull on the glass!


----------



## rsbrsvp

Using NOS tubes- up to $1000 for a quad- can the Freya+ hold a candle to something like the PrimaLuna Evo 400- or is it just not possible?


----------



## paradoxper

rsbrsvp said:


> Using NOS tubes- up to $1000 for a quad- can the Freya+ hold a candle to something like the PrimaLuna Evo 400- or is it just not possible?


Evo is not that great. It depends on the listening preference and what you're listening for. Those former lean solid state sounding for reference.


----------



## inmytaxi

I think Freya+ is great, except the tubes are costly. However, you can roll in a fine set for $200 if you want and be good to go. I don't use tubes a great deal due to the heat, but like having it anyway. When I go tube, I prefer going all the way.


----------



## sahmen

Greetings :  I have not read this forum yet so pardon my question if it has come up before : If anyone has paired a Freya Plus with a Keces S300 amplifier, or heard that pairing, could you kindly post what your impressions are or were?  Many thanks.


----------



## ChrisPDX (May 10, 2022)

dude120 said:


> Went to switch to tube stage this evening *and the unit went dark*. No lights, doesn't seem to power on.


Would it be correct to infer, from the quote above, that you were changing the tubes while it was powered-on ?
(I miss-read, disregard)


----------



## dude120

ChrisPDX said:


> Would it be correct to infer, from the quote above, that you were changing the tubes while it was powered-on ?



no. Changing tubes while the amp is on is a good way to ruin your freya.

I usually leave it on the JFET stage. Switched to tubes as I needed more gain for the energizer I had plugged in to it.

Anyways, the problem, oddley enough, ended up being the power cord. 
Makes no damn sense, but I stole the one from my Jotunheim R and havent had an issue since i posted that.


----------



## ChrisPDX

dude120 said:


> no. Changing tubes while the amp is on is a good way to ruin your freya.
> 
> I usually leave it on the JFET stage. Switched to tubes as I needed more gain for the energizer I had plugged in to it.
> 
> ...


Ugh … I carelessly miss-read “switching tubes,” which you didn’t actually write,  in your earlier post. Beg your pardon !

That is weird about the power cable. Have you tried switching back to confirm?


----------



## makan (May 10, 2022)

Hi there. I have a question about replacing a hissing stock JJ tube. It seems to hiss with one tube as it moves from left to right channel when I move its position from back to front. I am wondering if I should replace just the bad tube or replace the pair so that they will match?  My understanding that a matched pair is best.


----------



## DougD

As a confessed tube-nube, I have a question ... which I don't recall having been asked/answered explicitly here before ... 

==> Do you Advanced Practitioners of the Thermionic Listening Arts ("APTLAns") often feed the tubey output of the Freya+ into a *tube* headphone/power amp?

And if so, any thoughts on good or bad combos, or how to match/balance the parts?

In my case, I got a Freya+ in November, with the new manufacture TungSol tubes. Bought a pair a EH-Golds to try as an alt, but decided those were not an improvement, so went back to all TS's. Have ordered a couple of pairs of primo NOS tubes, but it will be a while before they arrive. Recently I got a Schiit Lyr3, partially because as a single-tube amp, tube-rolling is a cheap as it can be for a 6sn7 amp. As an ignorant person on the learning path, that's a very useful thing for me. Bought a single used but reportedly good KenRad VT-231 from an EBay seller. So far, the Freya w/ the Tungsols --> Lyr3 w KenRad sounds pretty good to me. (I listen to a fairly wide ranges of musical genres, but probably 60% rock, alt-rock, & blues. ) 

TIA !


----------



## Balthazar B

makan said:


> Hi there. I have a question about replacing a hissing stock JJ tube. It seems to hiss with one tube as it moves from left to right channel when I move its position from back to front. I am wondering if I should replace just the bad tube or replace the pair so that they will match?  My understanding that a matched pair is best.


You'll want matched pairs on each side. A Lyr 3 would make a fine home for any orphaned 6SN7 tubes you have lying around.


----------



## belgiangenius

Let's see how good Freya sounds with audio grade DC blocking capacitors on the tube output. 

Stay tuned.  😁


----------



## Mike-WI

belgiangenius said:


> Let's see how good Freya sounds with audio grade DC blocking capacitors on the tube output.
> 
> Stay tuned.  😁


Presumably the stock capacitors are audio grade by definition.
Still, interested to see/hear what you are doing.
Can you explain more...


----------



## PoMarantz

Mike-WI said:


> Presumably the stock capacitors are audio grade by definition.
> Still, interested to see/hear what you are doing.
> Can you explain more...


OH! YES PLEASE!!!! (He is a genius after all 🤗).


----------



## belgiangenius

Mike-WI said:


> Presumably the stock capacitors are audio grade by definition.
> Still, interested to see/hear what you are doing.
> Can you explain more...



Sure.  Those WIMA capacitors you see laying on the bench were removed and replaced with the four VCAP ODAM capacitors you see on the board now.

Your music leaves the tubes and goes through those capacitors before arriving at the output jacks (i.e., tube amplifier stages are not direct coupled because of the large DC offset added by the tubes).  So, those capacitors are very important for sound quality.

The WIMA capacitors Schiit uses are a great bang for the buck at a few dollars each, but you can do much better if you're willing to invest a few hundred dollars in the Freya.


----------



## KoshNaranek

PoMarantz said:


> OH! YES PLEASE!!!! (He is a genius after all 🤗).


And I would also like to know where one obtains @belgiangenius buttons like those on his previous Avtar. 

Asking for a friend


----------



## PoMarantz

belgiangenius said:


> Sure.  Those WIMA capacitors you see laying on the bench were removed and replaced with the four VCAP ODAM capacitors you see on the board now.
> 
> Your music leaves the tubes and goes through those capacitors before arriving at the output jacks (i.e., tube amplifier stages are not direct coupled because of the large DC offset added by the tubes).  So, those capacitors are very important for sound quality.
> 
> The WIMA capacitors Schiit uses are a great bang for the buck at a few dollars each, but you can do much better if you're willing to invest a few hundred dollars in the Freya.


So… can you describe how these new capacitors will affect the sound quality/signal and what are your expectations, i.e. what do you expect to hear in the way of improvement ?


----------



## SchiityAudiophile

Hi all. Just received my new Freya+ (upgrading from the original Saga), and I'm sorta disappointed.

I visited the Schiitr a few years back and heard the Freya in action and was impressed. One of the things that stood out most in my memory was how much louder the tube stage was compared to the others (both passive and active JFET sounded nearly the same, volume-wise). But, that isn't the case with mine. Maybe it's the new design, or maybe my memory has failed me, or maybe something's up with my unit...I don't know, but I'm hoping for some insight.

Compared to the passive, the differential stage is noticeably quieter on mine, and the tube stage is only sightly louder. So, I took out my SPL meter, put on some white noise, and set the volume to clock in at 60db, in an attempt to get a general idea of what the difference was at a moderate volume. The differential came in at -3db, while the tubes were +3db. This seems off, based on my previous experience, and the claim of 0db for both passive and differential, and 12db gain for the tubes in their literature...

Am I missing something here?

Also, one of the tubes makes a terrible, random squealing noise, and another tube's guide post broke after having only removed it twice (trying to isolate the noisy one), so I already need two of them replaced. 😑

Any clarification is appreciated.
Thank you.


----------



## ChrisPDX

SchiityAudiophile said:


> Hi all. Just received my new Freya+ (upgrading from the original Saga), and I'm sorta disappointed.
> 
> I visited the Schiitr a few years back and heard the Freya in action and was impressed. One of the things that stood out most in my memory was how much louder the tube stage was compared to the others (both passive and active JFET sounded nearly the same, volume-wise). But, that isn't the case with mine. Maybe it's the new design, or maybe my memory has failed me, or maybe something's up with my unit...I don't know, but I'm hoping for some insight.
> 
> ...


Oh man, sorry to hear of your bad  experience with your new Freya.

I’m confident that you received a bad unit. My Freya+ behaves just as described — essentially equal gain for passive and solid-state modes, significantly more  gain (12db sounds about right) in tube mode — not a subtle difference in loudness.

It also sounds like you got a bad set of tubes.

I would encourage you to not give up on this outstanding high-value preamp, but instead initiate a free warranty return with Schiit right away. Ask them to upgrade the tubes with the replacement unit to new-production Tung-Sols, for your trouble.

Once you’re up and running, don’t delay getting a good matched pair of NOS tubes for the gain stage (the two tubes on the right, which have the most impact). It makes a real and lovely difference.

Again, really sorry to hear this happened. Let us know what happens !


----------



## PoMarantz (May 13, 2022)

SchiityAudiophile said:


> Hi all. Just received my new Freya+ (upgrading from the original Saga), and I'm sorta disappointed.
> 
> I visited the Schiitr a few years back and heard the Freya in action and was impressed. One of the things that stood out most in my memory was how much louder the tube stage was compared to the others (both passive and active JFET sounded nearly the same, volume-wise). But, that isn't the case with mine. Maybe it's the new design, or maybe my memory has failed me, or maybe something's up with my unit...I don't know, but I'm hoping for some insight.
> 
> ...


I am running my Freya + with factory Tung Sols (buffer) and GE NOS(output). I do not have a meter. I do know that if I am in Solid State Mode I have to click my volume back to switch to Tube Mode…as the volume changes quite a bit. (I wish that all the gain was equal, personally). My Tube Mode is silent….but that not being silent could also have something to do with particular power amp/speaker combos, too. Couldn't it?or you could possibly have bad tubes, I guess.
I have used my Freya + with 3 different amps (same speakers) and it has sounded the same.
Have you contacted Schiit?


----------



## DougD

DougD said:


> As a confessed tube-nube, I have a question ... which I don't recall having been asked/answered explicitly here before ...
> 
> ==> Do you Advanced Practitioners of the Thermionic Listening Arts ("APTLAns") often feed the tubey output of the Freya+ into a *tube* headphone/power amp?
> 
> ...



48 hours without a reply. I draw two conclusions:

#1 - you all DO run Freya+ with tubes into a tube power amp. No-one denied doing so. Or gave reasons why not to. (My prior belief was that if doing so doesn't release any  of the magic smoke, then it's up to the listener to decide if the effects are pleasing or not-pleasing.)

#2 - Rule #1 in Freya Club is that nobody talks about what happens in the private sanctums of Freya Club.


----------



## SchiityAudiophile (May 14, 2022)

PoMarantz said:


> I am running my Freya + with factory Tung Sols (buffer) and GE NOS(output). I do not have a meter. I do know that if I am in Solid State Mode I have to click my volume back to switch to Tube Mode…as the volume changes quite a bit. (I wish that all the gain was equal, personally). My Tube Mode is silent….but that not being silent could also have something to do with particular power amp/speaker combos, too. Couldn't it?or you could possibly have bad tubes, I guess.
> I have used my Freya + with 3 different amps (same speakers) and it has sounded the same.
> Have you contacted Schiit?


Thanks for the feedback.

I contacted them the day I received the unit, Wednesday (that night), letting them know about the volume changes between stages not being what I was expecting, and got a response the next morning saying that it sounded perfectly normal, and that it depends on the speakers and amp used.

I then responded to their email later that morning about the broken tube, and then later that day about the screeching tube and the decibel measurements I made, asking for a replacement unit and tubes, but haven't heard back. That was 2 days ago.


----------



## belgiangenius

KoshNaranek said:


> And I would also like to know where one obtains @belgiangenius buttons like those on his previous Avtar.
> 
> Asking for a friend



LOL.  No idea.  I found that picture on the web!


----------



## PoMarantz

Schiit is usually quite responsive… it seems that you had a bad tube if it was making a significant noise. I have had my Freya+ for about a year and have heard no tube noises at all…except ONE (VERY LOUD) pop. I was in my kitchen (system not in that room)…it was sooooo loud that at first I was not sure if it had anything to do with my sound system, but may have been an environmental noise. I think it was a tube pop. Be forewarned. 😁
Never heard a peep before or since. 
I change tubes RARELY (not a tube nube), but when I do, (I read up on this)…one must consider, for the cost (Freya+ is considered a lower-cost item of this type), there are caveats. Go back a page in this thread and you can see BlegianGenius' post where you can see the circuit board inside of the Freya+. The tube bases are mounted on a rather delicate circuit board. You NOW know how much force is required to push or pull your tubes in and out of the sockets. (It’s considerable!)…It's not an ideal situation, but clearly was done to save on manufacturing costs.. It's quite obvious that you are ROCKIN that whole circuit board's world when changing tubes. So…I try to handle tube insertion and removal with kid gloves. I TAKE MY TIME, and gentle rock the tubes back and forth in one plane when inserting and removing them. (I also lightly lube the pins, but that is another whole discussion). I work with my hands for a living and this is all second nature "to me", but I understand that it may not be for others.
What amp and speakers are you using with your Freya+?


----------



## belgiangenius (May 14, 2022)

PoMarantz said:


> So… can you describe how these new capacitors will affect the sound quality/signal and what are your expectations, i.e. what do you expect to hear in the way of improvement ?



After a couple of days of listening, I can confirm those new capacitors rendered a noticeable improvement.

I know Schiit is not into the boutique capacitor scene where you can easily spend $100+ on a single capacitor.  Admittedly, it's not a good value proposition for most people. BUT, when you have a piece of equipment as good as Freya+ and you have to run the output of your tube stage through capacitors, this is the obvious upgrade path to take the Freya to a new level.

I've experimented lots with boutique capacitors in the past, particularly in vacuum tube stages.  The results are always remarkable.  A top tier set of capacitors in your signal path takes the sound quality to a new level.  You notice it in the sense of space and air that you get from the music.  Voices and some instruments like steel guitars start to float towards you.  Pianos reverberate like they are next to you.  The experience is heavenly.

This of course requires that you have a system, speakers, and have chosen tubes that are capable of resolving this level of experience.

I'm absolutely thrilled with this Freya now.  It was great before.  Now it's simply stellar.


----------



## inmytaxi

SchiityAudiophile said:


> Thanks for the feedback.
> 
> I contacted them the day I received the unit, Wednesday (that night), letting them know about the volume changes between stages not being what I was expecting, and got a response the next morning saying that it sounded perfectly normal, and that it depends on the speakers and amp used.
> 
> I then responded to their email later that morning about the broken tube, and then later that day about the screeching tube and the decibel measurements I made, asking for a replacement unit and tubes, but haven't heard back. That was 2 days ago.


I find it's better to start a new correspondence after they respond, re: subject lines don't have the same response rate as subject lines. That said, I find the vol goes down slightly with the buffer stage, and up quite a bit in the tube stage.


----------



## PoMarantz

belgiangenius said:


> After a couple of days of listening, I can confirm those new capacitors rendered a noticeable improvement.
> 
> I know Schiit is not into the boutique capacitor scene where you can easily spend $100+ on a single capacitor.  Admittedly, it's not a good value proposition for most people. BUT, when you have a piece of equipment as good as Freya+ and you have to run the output of your tube stage through capacitors, this is the obvious upgrade path to take the Freya to a new level.
> 
> ...


So…BG…Can any fool with a Freya+ and a soldering iron do the mod? (I say that tongue-in-cheek).
Is it as simple as unsoldering the 4 OEM capacitors and then soldering in 4 new ones? I am game…I have done some simple soldering projects and have a Freya+. I also think that my system is "worthy" of the endeavor! 😁


----------



## SchiityAudiophile

PoMarantz said:


> Schiit is usually quite responsive… it seems that you had a bad tube if it was making a significant noise. I have had my Freya+ for about a year and have heard no tube noises at all…except ONE (VERY LOUD) pop. I was in my kitchen (system not in that room)…it was sooooo loud that at first I was not sure if it had anything to do with my sound system, but may have been an environmental noise. I think it was a tube pop. Be forewarned. 😁
> Never heard a peep before or since.
> I change tubes RARELY (not a tube nube), but when I do, (I read up on this)…one must consider, for the cost (Freya+ is considered a lower-cost item of this type), there are caveats. Go back a page in this thread and you can see BlegianGenius' post where you can see the circuit board inside of the Freya+. The tube bases are mounted on a rather delicate circuit board. You NOW know how much force is required to push or pull your tubes in and out of the sockets. (It’s considerable!)…It's not an ideal situation, but clearly was done to save on manufacturing costs.. It's quite obvious that you are ROCKIN that whole circuit board's world when changing tubes. So…I try to handle tube insertion and removal with kid gloves. I TAKE MY TIME, and gentle rock the tubes back and forth in one plane when inserting and removing them. (I also lightly lube the pins, but that is another whole discussion). I work with my hands for a living and this is all second nature "to me", but I understand that it may not be for others.
> What amp and speakers are you using with your Freya+?


I'm with you with regards to babying the tubes. I take my time and care inserting and removing them (I've always been a bit of a chicken, thinking I'll break something in the process). Slow and steady rocking, all the way!

I've got MartinLogan Motion 60XT speakers and an Odyssey Kismet (in a Khartago) amp.


----------



## SchiityAudiophile

inmytaxi said:


> I find it's better to start a new correspondence after they respond, re: subject lines don't have the same response rate as subject lines. That said, I find the vol goes down slightly with the buffer stage, and up quite a bit in the tube stage.


👍
I did end up starting a new one with the last message I sent them Thursday afternoon. Let's hope I hear back on Monday. 😬


----------



## SchiityAudiophile

SchiityAudiophile said:


> Hi all. Just received my new Freya+ (upgrading from the original Saga), and I'm sorta disappointed.
> 
> I visited the Schiitr a few years back and heard the Freya in action and was impressed. One of the things that stood out most in my memory was how much louder the tube stage was compared to the others (both passive and active JFET sounded nearly the same, volume-wise). But, that isn't the case with mine. Maybe it's the new design, or maybe my memory has failed me, or maybe something's up with my unit...I don't know, but I'm hoping for some insight.
> 
> ...


This is ridiculous....a second tube post, broken. There's something up with either these tubes or the plugs, because I've rolled tubes in and out of my Saga dozens and dozens of times over the past 5-6 years with no problems...I think I know what I'm doing at this point.

But with the Freya+, when I'm aligning the notch, it feels like I've got them properly aligned, but it's not (see attached photo), and the post snaps off once it's fully seated. And the resistance isn't any more than when inserting them properly, so there's way I can tell it's misaligned. So frustrating.


----------



## PoMarantz

SchiityAudiophile said:


> This is ridiculous....a second tube post, broken. There's something up with either these tubes or the plugs, because I've rolled tubes in and out of my Saga dozens and dozens of times over the past 5-6 years with no problems...I think I know what I'm doing at this point.
> 
> But with the Freya+, when I'm aligning the notch, it feels like I've got them properly aligned, but it's not (see attached photo), and the post snaps off once it's fully seated. And the resistance isn't any more than when inserting them properly, so there's way I can tell it's misaligned. So frustrating.


For what it’s worth..I have never had a problem with the tubes…


----------



## belgiangenius

PoMarantz said:


> So…BG…Can any fool with a Freya+ and a soldering iron do the mod? (I say that tongue-in-cheek).
> Is it as simple as unsoldering the 4 OEM capacitors and then soldering in 4 new ones? I am game…I have done some simple soldering projects and have a Freya+. I also think that my system is "worthy" of the endeavor! 😁



Any fool - NO.  I'd say you should be an electrical engineer (I am), electrician, or electronics technician before you attempt something like this.  If you're just a hobbyist, I hope you have lots of experience working on gear like this before you even consider it.

Keep in mind tube stages typically run at a couple hundred volts DC.  That can easily kill you.  Capacitors can remain charged even after the unit is shut off.  The caps in the Freya all measured 0V when I checked them, so I'm assuming Schiit was smart enough to outfit bleed resistors where needed.  But, the point is, this work requires the requisite knowledge to do it safely and properly.


----------



## sam6550a

SchiityAudiophile said:


> This is ridiculous....a second tube post, broken. There's something up with either these tubes or the plugs, because I've rolled tubes in and out of my Saga dozens and dozens of times over the past 5-6 years with no problems...I think I know what I'm doing at this point.
> 
> But with the Freya+, when I'm aligning the notch, it feels like I've got them properly aligned, but it's not (see attached photo), and the post snaps off once it's fully seated. And the resistance isn't any more than when inserting them properly, so there's way I can tell it's misaligned. So frustrating.


you can clearly see that the key is not in the keyway, it is clocked counterclockwise from the keyway.


----------



## sam6550a

belgiangenius said:


> Any fool - NO.  I'd say you should be an electrical engineer (I am), electrician, or electronics technician before you attempt something like this.  If you're just a hobbyist, I hope you have lots of experience working on gear like this before you even consider it.
> 
> Keep in mind tube stages typically run at a couple hundred volts DC.  That can easily kill you.  Capacitors can remain charged even after the unit is shut off.  The caps in the Freya all measured 0V when I checked them, so I'm assuming Schiit was smart enough to outfit bleed resistors where needed.  But, the point is, this work requires the requisite knowledge to do it safely and properly.


In addition, Freya is a multilayer circuit board, so professional desoldering equipment is needed to do the job correctly, and avoiding damage to the printed wiring board.


----------



## SchiityAudiophile

sam6550a said:


> you can clearly see that the key is not in the keyway, it is clocked counterclockwise from the keyway.


Yes. That was my point, it felt like the key was in position, but it definitely was not. And it went in easily.


----------



## PoMarantz

sam6550a said:


> In addition, Freya is a multilayer circuit board, so professional desoldering equipment is needed to do the job correctly, and avoiding damage to the printed wiring board.


There goes my big plans for an audio adventure and better sound! 🙂


----------



## inmytaxi (May 16, 2022)

SchiityAudiophile said:


> This is ridiculous....a second tube post, broken. There's something up with either these tubes or the plugs, because I've rolled tubes in and out of my Saga dozens and dozens of times over the past 5-6 years with no problems...I think I know what I'm doing at this point.
> 
> But with the Freya+, when I'm aligning the notch, it feels like I've got them properly aligned, but it's not (see attached photo), and the post snaps off once it's fully seated. And the resistance isn't any more than when inserting them properly, so there's way I can tell it's misaligned. So frustrating.


I strongly recommend that anyone rolling tubes buy a set of 4 or 8 tube savers. They pay for themselves with one saved repair on the Freya/saga/Lyr/ etc.







A little not friendly for work B&D for your entertainment at home. (Thanks to @Deyan for the work!)


----------



## sahmen

inmytaxi said:


> I strongly recommend that anyone rolling tubes buy a set of 4 or 8 tube savers. They pay for themselves with one saved repair on the Freya/saga/Lyr/ etc.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice! Do you have a link to a site where these savers are sold?  Many thanks.


----------



## inmytaxi

I got the savers on ebay, but I also got a pair of the fancy white ones which are nice to hold but expensive to buy 4.


sahmen said:


> Nice! Do you have a link to a site where these savers are sold?  Many thanks.


I just grabbed 8 for forty off the auction sites overseas - like, but he's sold out dude. Man here has some for more monies and better ads.

*Sockets in your expensive gear can become loose with repeated insertions and expensive to replace. Loose sockets can be a source of variety of sonic and electrical problems. This Plug & Play, OCTAL-NOVIB Socket Saver© with 1960s NOS GE USA Bottom Plug Part and NOS OMRON JAPAN Top Socket Part and Vibration Reduction Base is a perfect solution.

Top plug and bottom socket parts are Brand New NOS for snug fit, unlike cheap ... bases with thinner pins and flimsy sockets. Engineered in-house and precision manufactured for us with high quality materials. *

I bought two and highly recommend them.

The c3gs are strapped down with custom adapters made by head-fi'er @Deyan who claims he can make "anything" ... so far, so good!


----------



## inmytaxi

SchiityAudiophile said:


> Yes. That was my point, it felt like the key was in position, but it definitely was not. And it went in easily.


It's not an uncommon mistake.


----------



## SchiityAudiophile

inmytaxi said:


> It's not an uncommon mistake.


It's never happened to me until now. I've been rolling tubes in the Saga for years, and never had any issues. And this being a brand new unit, I was being even more cautious that usual, and I'm overly cautious in general with this stuff (I take pride in taking care of my gear).

When I'm able to insert a tube incorrectly, and do so just as easily as if I'm doing so correctly, that tells me there's something up with the plug or the tubes (or both). And the fact that it happened with two of four tubes, on two separate plugs, and after only being plugged in/swapped maybe four times, tells me there's something else wrong.

I've since boxed up the Freya+ and hooked my Saga back up, and have changed the tubes a few times, again with no issues. The plug in the Saga definitely feels more sturdy than those in the Freya+ (granted, it's only one plug to the other's four).

I feel like I'm belaboring my point, and I apologize...this whole thing has been very frustrating. I've been looking forward to upgrading from the Saga to the Freya since I settled on (for financial reasons) and purchased the Saga at the beginning of 2017. I can't tell you how excited I was to make this purchase, but it's been a disheartening and disappointing experience thus far. Thank you for letting me vent, and, also, sorry for venting.


----------



## PoMarantz

Visual confirmation on tube insertion is KEY! 👀 
My Loki Max ships TODAY! ….after a 4-month wait! 😁


----------



## inmytaxi

PoMarantz said:


> Visual confirmation on tube insertion is KEY! 👀
> My Loki Max ships TODAY! ….after a 4-month wait! 😁


Really? They're back? Hmm.


----------



## PoMarantz (May 19, 2022)

I am told on forums that Schiit does "runs" of certain components…(after they get enough orders, perhaps?)
You could ask customer service is any are available, I guess.


----------



## rkindel

I just upgraded my Pangea AC14SE power cord with the twice as expensive XL version. Shocked (no pun intended) by the improvement. More transparency and refinement. Dynamics are improved and bass timber is much better. Here is a example where more money definitely gets you more. My Benchmark DAC loves the XL and got one for it to.


----------



## ozziegurkan

Hi all,
I have a loose heat sink part in my Freya plus and was wondering how to take off the top. I can’t tell how to take it apart. Does the volume knob need to come off? Which screws in the back need to come off? Thanks for your help!


----------



## inmytaxi

ozziegurkan said:


> Hi all,
> I have a loose heat sink part in my Freya plus and was wondering how to take off the top. I can’t tell how to take it apart. Does the volume knob need to come off? Which screws in the back need to come off? Thanks for your help!


My Lyr came apart by removing the vol knob and unscrewing the nut underneath (not the one taking apart their gear)... then the top slide, snaps on, so I snapped it off. Freya+ looks similar, but I can't be certain.


----------



## jerick70

ozziegurkan said:


> Hi all,
> I have a loose heat sink part in my Freya plus and was wondering how to take off the top. I can’t tell how to take it apart. Does the volume knob need to come off? Which screws in the back need to come off? Thanks for your help!


I would send it in to Schiit to fix it, if it's still under warranty.


----------



## norbert2nd (Jul 16, 2022)

ozziegurkan said:


> Hi all,
> I have a loose heat sink part in my Freya plus and was wondering how to take off the top. I can’t tell how to take it apart. Does the volume knob need to come off? Which screws in the back need to come off? Thanks for your help!


Look here: https://diyaudio.de/the-schiit-freya-multi-mode-preamp/


----------



## Ethereal Sound

I recently received a Schiit Freya+ that I've been using in conjunction with my SuSy Dynahi. So far, I've only been using the stock tubes (The JJ 6SN7 tubes) and in this configuration, it's good though just a tad bit underwhelming.

I've found that the Freya+ with these tubes is not a very colored tube pre-amp and the flavor it imparts is quite subtle. You get a slightly better z-axis depth as well as slightly more height, which makes vocals feel bit further pulled back. It also changes the soundstage to have this effect of "wrapping around" me a bit more. 
The freya has less of a sense of immediacy compared to listening directly out of the dynahi but the tone is very nice. Acoustic instruments and vocals are full and dense and there doesn't appear to be any loss of detail.

One thing to note is that it's definitely not silent. When no music is playing, there definitely is a noise floor though I completely forget about it while music is playing. This might also be due to the tubes as I also get a rather high pitched sound that comes out of the tubes themselves sporadically. Not sure if this is normal or not, perhaps someone else can comment on this. At any rate, I will definitely be rolling tubes as I have read that the sound is quite customizable with different tube options.


----------



## paradoxper

Ethereal Sound said:


> I recently received a Schiit Freya+ that I've been using in conjunction with my SuSy Dynahi. So far, I've only been using the stock tubes (The JJ 6SN7 tubes) and in this configuration, it's good though just a tad bit underwhelming.
> 
> I've found that the Freya+ with these tubes is not a very colored tube pre-amp and the flavor it imparts is quite subtle. You get a slightly better z-axis depth as well as slightly more height, which makes vocals feel bit further pulled back. It also changes the soundstage to have this effect of "wrapping around" me a bit more.
> The freya has less of a sense of immediacy compared to listening directly out of the dynahi but the tone is very nice. Acoustic instruments and vocals are full and dense and there doesn't appear to be any loss of detail.
> ...


Go for the MELZ 1578 and Ken-Rad VT-231, they're superb compliments.

You could also reach and try out the Wathen CryoTone which if as advertised, should match the Dynahi very well.


----------



## inmytaxi

Do you have a LIST of things to buy at the Schiit site?

Mine just got shorter.


----------



## SCBob

Any thoughts on the new Freya Noval compared to the Freya+. The choice of tubes compatible with the Noval is nice.


----------



## SmashBruh

Would be curious to hear impressions from anyone who has the LISST tubes!


----------



## PoMarantz (Aug 27, 2022)

SmashBruh said:


> Would be curious to hear impressions from anyone who has the LISST tubes!


Hey…Steve Gutenberg, The Audiophiliac just posted a review on YouTube….check it OUT! 👍🏼 (He's calling it The Schiit Show! 😀)


----------



## Smoothstereo

Anyone know how wide is the Freya+ starting from the left of the unit going to the right where it reaches the first tube ? Trying to see if I can stack my amp on that side without hitting the tubes.


----------



## rkindel

Smoothstereo said:


> Anyone know how wide is the Freya+ starting from the left of the unit going to the right where it reaches the first tube ? Trying to see if I can stack my amp on that side without hitting the tubes.


About 8.5 inches


----------



## Smoothstereo (Oct 13, 2022)

rkindel said:


> About 8.5 inches


Thanks for your help. I was thinking of getting a Freya+ or Freya N and stack my Jot2 on top. But doesn't seem like Freya has enough room to accommodate the Jot2.

Speaking of the Freya+/N, anyone here using it with a Jot2, wondering if it's a good pairing. Any sonic differences between the two Freyas if same brand of tubes used in both? Would one be better than the other in terms of sonics/tube rolling/flexibility, etc?


----------



## rkindel

I went back and forth between the + and the S. I rarely listen to the tube stage. Too colored for my tastes but use it more now that I have my Loki Max. I think tubes are nice now as another alternative. I really like the passive stage personally.


----------



## inmytaxi

Smoothstereo said:


> Thanks for your help. I was thinking of getting a Freya+ or Freya N and stack my Jot2 on top. But doesn't seem like Freya has enough room to accommodate the Jot2.
> 
> Speaking of the Freya+/N, anyone here using it with a Jot2, wondering if it's a good pairing. Any sonic differences between the two Freyas if same brand of tubes used in both? Would one be better than the other in terms of sonics/tube rolling/flexibility, etc?


I wouldn't recommend it, even for a dac, especially for an amp.  You'd want to move the feet over to give tubes a little space 

Two clear = one clear so in passive it'll work fine. I have a configuration where I run off Freya to my rca only input  headphone amp.


----------



## Smoothstereo

inmytaxi said:


> I wouldn't recommend it, even for a dac, especially for an amp.  You'd want to move the feet over to give tubes a little space
> 
> Two clear = one clear so in passive it'll work fine. I have a configuration where I run off Freya to my rca only input  headphone amp.


Yep, thanks. Probably will have to get a shelf and put them separately. More space for the components to breathe is better.


----------



## EggCouncilCreep (Oct 18, 2022)

Ethereal Sound said:


> One thing to note is that it's definitely not silent. When no music is playing, there definitely is a noise floor though I completely forget about it while music is playing. *This might also be due to the tubes as I also get a rather high pitched sound that comes out of the tubes themselves sporadically. Not sure if this is normal or not, perhaps someone else can comment on this*. At any rate, I will definitely be rolling tubes as I have read that the sound is quite customizable with different tube options.



Hey Ethereal Sound, I joined the forum to see if you ever had a resolution to this issue. I've had the same high pitched sound coming out of my Freya+, specifically after playback has ended, and only out of the left channel tweeter. It's not noticeable at all during playback. Been corresponding with Schiit, but they'd like me to send the unit in for inspection. To me it seems like a tube issue, so I was wondering if tube rolling eliminated the high pitched sound. Coming from the guitar amp world, JJs are fairly well regarded (though doesn't seem to be the case here), and I hardly have any time on the Schiit-provided JJs. I did notice some pinging with the old fashioned pencil eraser test on 2 of the 4 tubes, but nothing grossly microphonic.


----------



## ChrisPDX

Smoothstereo said:


> Yep, thanks. Probably will have to get a shelf and put them separately. More space for the components to breathe is better.


Yes ... in addition to the tubes themselves, the left side of the top surface also gets remarkably hot.


----------



## PoMarantz (Oct 26, 2022)

True…I have had mine over a year, with almost daily use…and it has not seemed to be an issue…
It does get hot though. I saw online where a guy vented the left side of the top plate and the bottom of the casing. I think he may have put some larger feet on the unit as well. He did a great job of it and I think it would greatly help dissipate heat away from the unit.


----------



## Smoothstereo

Has anyone gotten a Freya N and rolled in some 12AU7/12AT7 tubes with adapter? No issues , correct?


----------



## arficus

Anyone have/had serious microphony issues? I have 50+ 6SN7,  which include several variants (eg VT231, 5692, GTA, GTB, W, etc) and manufacturers, and all are microphonic to a degree. Most are quite bad, sending noise through the system when merely tapping on chassis. Many of the tubes are unused, all test very well - I think this has to be a problem with the unit. I have an ST70 with 6SN7 driver board and none that I've tried there have been microphonic (though I'm not sure whether it would manifest as readily in this application). My first thought was failed solder joint on tube socket. I opened it up and couldn't find anything visually amiss. Any advice on what might be at fault? It's an early 1st gen (bought Jan 2017).


----------



## sofarfrome

Great thread for info. I have searched for answers to a question I have and did not find any (perhaps I am not asking correctly). I have two vintage solid state power amps coming back from recap/refresh and would really like to use this pre as my control. The amps are 1-Onkyo M-504 (20Kohms input impedance) and 2)-Sony TA-N80ES (30Kohms input impedance). My question is, will the Freya + work with these amps? I know the output impedance of the pre is 75ohms SE and 600ohms BAL and I am aware of the "rule of thumb" that the input impedance should be at least 10x the output impedance of the pre. I guess I am leery of "rules of thumb". I have a Rogue RP-7 as my main control amp for my M-180 monoblocks (200Kohms) and the output impedance for the RP-7 is approximately 10ohms so all good. But I don't want to use that pre for the SS amps I mentioned above. What I really like about the Freya + is the 3 modes of operation and a tubey sound for the SS amps. So my question is: Will I see any performance issues using the Freya+ with the Sony and/or Onkyo amps?


----------



## PoMarantz

Above my pay grade….but I did use my Freya + to drive  my 45-year old Bob Carver C-500 Solid State Power Amp.
It worked just fine….until I replace The Bob Carver with a McIntosh MC-152 Power Amp.. 😎


----------



## jbua5150 (Nov 4, 2022)

Freya + controls my Sim Audio Moon 400M monoblocks (47500 Ohm input impedance) via XLR just fine.
The Freya does have a very non-linear volume control.  Almost no audio is heard with the volume knob at or below the 12 o'clock position (in passive and active modes.) The gain structure of the tube mode adds 6db, so audio is played when the knob is lower.
I find the volume knobs "useable range" to be very small. From inaudible at 12 o'clock, to WAY too loud at 2o'clock.  I don't think my volume knob has ever seen 3 o'clock.  This behavior also results in the remote being quite finiky to provide small volume increases.  When my volume is loud and I want just a little more volume, I HAVE to use the knob, not the remote.

Edit: After spending more time with the Freya this week, my prior impressions seem to be partially incorrect.  
I DO have useable volume from low to high, but I was correct in that the when the volume is high, its very hard to use the remote to achieve a small volume increase.  I find at decently loud listening levels, the remote can be too touchy to add small volume increases.  Past 2 o'clock on the dial, the volume gets very loud very fast.


----------



## Smoothstereo

jbua5150 said:


> Freya + controls my Sim Audio Moon 400M monoblocks (47500 Ohm input impedance) via XLR just fine.
> The Freya does have a very non-linear volume control.  Almost no audio is heard with the volume knob at or below the 12 o'clock position (in passive and active modes.) The gain structure of the tube mode adds 6db, so audio is played when the knob is lower.
> I find the volume knobs "useable range" to be very small. From inaudible at 12 o'clock, to WAY too loud at 2o'clock.  I don't think my volume knob has ever seen 3 o'clock.  This behavior also results in the remote being quite finiky to provide small volume increases.  When my volume is loud and I want just a little more volume, I HAVE to use the knob, not the remote.


Hi, I see you have a Denafrips Ares. Did you ever paired the Ares to the Freya in tube mode and did it sound good? Reason I am asking, is I got a Pontus2 and planning to pair the Freya as a preamp in tube preamp mode, but was concerned that the Pontus2 xlr output impedance of 1250 ohm is too high for the Freya's input impedance of 10k ohm. Using the rule of 10 times (1250 x 10= 12,500 ohm), Freya's 10k ohm is a bit shy off. Ares has the same output impedance as Pontus, so wanted to hear your feedback.


----------



## jbua5150 (Nov 1, 2022)

Smoothstereo said:


> Hi, I see you have a Denafrips Ares. Did you ever paired the Ares to the Freya in tube mode and did it sound good? Reason I am asking, is I got a Pontus2 and planning to pair the Freya as a preamp in tube preamp mode, but was concerned that the Pontus2 xlr output impedance of 1250 ohm is too high for the Freya's input impedance of 10k ohm. Using the rule of 10 times (1250 x 10= 12,500 ohm), Freya's 10k ohm is a bit shy off. Ares has the same output impedance as Pontus, so wanted to hear your feedback.


Worked fine for me and sounded quite nice.
The only reason I moved the Ares off the Freya was simplify Roon for the wife.

Eidt:
An interesting read about impedance matching here:
https://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/mix-and-match-impedance/


----------



## Smoothstereo

jbua5150 said:


> Worked fine for me and sounded quite nice.
> The only reason I moved the Ares off the Freya was simplify Roon for the wife.
> 
> Eidt:
> ...


Sounds like no impedance mismatches to worry about. Thanks for your feedback.


----------



## ChrisPDX (Nov 2, 2022)

jbua5150 said:


> Freya + controls my Sim Audio Moon 400M monoblocks (47500 Ohm input impedance) via XLR just fine.
> The Freya does have a very non-linear volume control. Almost no audio is heard with the volume knob at or below the 12 o'clock position (in passive and active modes.) The gain structure of the tube mode adds 6db, so audio is played when the knob is lower.
> I find the volume knobs "useable range" to be very small. From inaudible at 12 o'clock, to WAY too loud at 2o'clock. I don't think my volume knob has ever seen 3 o'clock. This behavior also results in the remote being quite finiky to provide small volume increases. When my volume is loud and I want just a little more volume, I HAVE to use the knob, not the remote.


For what it's worth, in my case Freya+ drives Monarchy Audio SM-70 Pro monoblocks (100kΩ input impedance) via XLR just fine. And I do not seem to have those issues with the volume control.


----------



## PoMarantz

Smoothstereo said:


> Hi, I see you have a Denafrips Ares. Did you ever paired the Ares to the Freya in tube mode and did it sound good? Reason I am asking, is I got a Pontus2 and planning to pair the Freya as a preamp in tube preamp mode, but was concerned that the Pontus2 xlr output impedance of 1250 ohm is too high for the Freya's input impedance of 10k ohm. Using the rule of 10 times (1250 x 10= 12,500 ohm), Freya's 10k ohm is a bit shy off. Ares has the same output impedance as Pontus, so wanted to hear your feedback.


I use my Pontus II with a Loki Max and The Freya+. It all works great…tube or SS.


----------



## Smoothstereo

PoMarantz said:


> I use my Pontus II with a Loki Max and The Freya+. It all works great…tube or SS.


Thanks. What tubes are you rolling in the Freya+ ? Do you find adding a Freya in between the Pontus dac and headphone amp have any detail/resolution loss vs using the Pontus direct to headphone amp?


----------



## sofarfrome

Thanks for the responses. I did finally get a response from Schiit and they believe I should not have any problems. The Onkyo was of most concern as its input impedance is 20Kohms and certainly fits the 10x rule of thumb fo balanced output of the Freya+ so SCHIIT IT IS!!!


----------



## PoMarantz (Nov 2, 2022)

Smoothstereo said:


> Thanks. What tubes are you rolling in the Freya+ ? Do you find adding a Freya in between the Pontus dac and headphone amp have any detail/resolution loss vs using the Pontus direct to headphone amp?


I think that you may misunderstand. The Loki Max is a 6-band equalizer.
My path is all balanced XLRs from Pontus II > Loki Max > Freya+ > McIntosh MC152 Power Amp > DynAudio Contour 20 Speakers.
I am not using a headphone Amp.
I love the Loki Max. It seems to introduce no alteration or noise into my sound quality when zeroed-out and it perfect for occasionally tweaking less-than-great recordings. Really love it.
I use two sets of NOS tubes in the input stage:
1. GE 6SN7GTBs
2. Sylvania 6SN7 GT TALL 2 HOLES Bad Boys PLATINUM

Both sets broaden the soundstage and extend the highs and lows.
I find the bass to be tighter and more textured on The Sylvanias…but the top end gets a tiny bit thinner.….
I assure you… I am no expert.


----------



## Smoothstereo

PoMarantz said:


> I think that you may misunderstand. The Loki Max is a 6-band equalizer.
> My path is all balanced XLRs from Pontus II > Loki Max > Freya+ > McIntosh MC152 Power Amp > DynAudio Contour 20 Speakers.
> I am not using a headphone Amp.
> I love the Loki Max. It seems to introduce no alteration or noise into my sound quality when zeroed-out and it perfect for occasionally tweaking less-than-great recordings. Really love it.
> ...


Ok, I see thanks. Still helpful feedback.


----------



## khashmi

Smoothstereo said:


> Hi, I see you have a Denafrips Ares. Did you ever paired the Ares to the Freya in tube mode and did it sound good? Reason I am asking, is I got a Pontus2 and planning to pair the Freya as a preamp in tube preamp mode, but was concerned that the Pontus2 xlr output impedance of 1250 ohm is too high for the Freya's input impedance of 10k ohm. Using the rule of 10 times (1250 x 10= 12,500 ohm), Freya's 10k ohm is a bit shy off. Ares has the same output impedance as Pontus, so wanted to hear your feedback.


Using an Ares II (on sale currently) for the past year, paired with the Freya Plus in tube mode. No issues whatsoever—used this combo on both SS monoblocks and a tube amp.


----------



## qwin49

belgiangenius said:


> Let's see how good Freya sounds with audio grade DC blocking capacitors on the tube output.
> 
> Stay tuned.  😁


Hi
Thinking of doing this mod.
The V-Cap ODAM's you used on your Freya upgrade, require correct orientation when fitting (outer foil to the lowest impedance path to ground).
Can you confirm the orientation in your picture above is correct?
Thanks


----------



## Smoothstereo

Anyone with Freya+ or Noval have a faint hum coming from the left side where the transformers are? Also, when the mute button is pressed, does it make a zappy type of sound?

Trying to see if this is normal and that's how all Freya+/Noval performs.


----------



## Homrsimson

Figured I would ask this crew before putting up a wanted ad, but I’m thinking of adding a freya + to my chain and am looking for the following tubes:

MELZ 1578 perforated
Rca grey glass
Ken-Rad VT-231
Quality Hytron

If anybody has good matched tubes please shoot me a note. I would also consider running quad 1578’s for the right price. Thanks


----------



## christopherivan

Has anyone had issues with the Freya not turning on? If so, did you find a fix without sending it back to Schiit?


----------



## GPJ7

christopherivan said:


> Has anyone had issues with the Freya not turning on? If so, did you find a fix without sending it back to Schiit?



There is a fuse inside that may have blown. If you are under warranty, best to send it in. Not sure if anyone attempted a fuse change yet, but beware of deadly current inside if thinking about it.


----------



## christopherivan

GPJ7 said:


> There is a fuse inside that may have blown. If you are under warranty, best to send it in. Not sure if anyone attempted a fuse change yet, but beware of deadly current inside if thinking about it.


Ah, I'm still within the warranty window so I'll let the professionals handle it instead of making it worse. Thank you for the reply!


----------



## qwin49

SchiityAudiophile said:


> Yes. That was my point, it felt like the key was in position, but it definitely was not. And it went in easily.


I use a Silver "Sharpie" and colour the edge of the alignment Tongue on the Tubes base. This makes it easier to see when lining it up with the socket.


----------



## sahmen

What are the main advantages for getting a Freya + with the lisst tube replacements over a Freya Noval if one is going to tube roll in either case? And why is the Freya + so much more expensive than the Freya Noval, even at the B-stock prices of the current Blaxk Friday sale?


----------



## JooLoo

anyone know if its safe for me to use 12au7 tubes with an adapter to the freya plus?


----------



## Orange5o (Nov 26, 2022)

Mis-post. Lack of Freya N impressions is puzzling


----------



## supersonic395

Anyone run a Freya S (fed by a Yggy) with an Emotiva XPA Gen3 power amp? I assume it should be fine?


----------



## AstronomerXI

Orange5o said:


> Mis-post. Lack of Freya N impressions is puzzling


I'm kind of puzzled by the lack of impressions as well, but Jason Stoddard did say that they didn't sell, and the ones on sale are the last of them. They had 9 or so on sale originally, they all sold, then they added 7 more last night, and today they added another 8 or 9 when they were down to 1.

This was a decent read: https://audio-head.com/a-schiit-tube-shootout-6sn7-vs-lisst-vs-6n1p/

I've ordered an N today in Schiit's Black Friday sale. I'll run it with a Lokius and both an Asgard 3 and a Magni Piety. My DAC has the choice of running solid-state only or turning on the tube stage (2x 5670's). Lots of opportunity to tune the sound with this chain.


----------



## KoshNaranek

JooLoo said:


> anyone know if its safe for me to use 12au7 tubes with an adapter to the freya plus?


Probably not. Plate voltage for 6sn7 is 200V, this exceeds the 12au7 plate voltage of about 100V


----------



## dieslemat

Anyone know where I can get replacement parts (transformers) for the  Schiit Freya+?

I believe my transformers blew up and shipping them to Schiit from Singapore is like 1/3 the price alread. 

Looking for a cheaper solution


----------



## mmmadog

I just picked up a Freya N from the Schiit sale and I'm having issue's. It's still breaking in but I run my cable TV box to it and my computer thru different dacs and neither has enough drive to make the Freya sound right. Im usually well past 12 o clock on the volume just to hear it. If you raise or lower the volume the dynamics change and there is a serious lack of low end. It's there just very muted. My previous Pre amp was a Burson conductor v1 and it had the same issue. Any help is much appreciated.


----------



## sam6550a

mmmadog said:


> I just picked up a Freya N from the Schiit sale and I'm having issue's. It's still breaking in but I run my cable TV box to it and my computer thru different dacs and neither has enough drive to make the Freya sound right. Im usually well past 12 o clock on the volume just to hear it. If you raise or lower the volume the dynamics change and there is a serious lack of low end. It's there just very muted. My previous Pre amp was a Burson conductor v1 and it had the same issue. Any help is much appreciated.


If you had the same issue with another preamp, your problem is either your sources connected to the preamp have a low output, or your amplifier is not sensitive. I believe that Schiit stuff is designed for 2V unbal in-out levels.


----------



## mmmadog

Yeah I have tried other amps dacs pre amps and they all have the same issue. My sources all have to low of an output. It sucks. Something I want to add because this thread is about tube rolling and not  much info on the Freya N but it looks like it's a pain to tube roll because the tubes are so far down in the unit compared to the plus. Not much sticking out to grab onto.


----------



## sam6550a

mmmadog said:


> Yeah I have tried other amps dacs pre amps and they all have the same issue. My sources all have to low of an output. It sucks. Something I want to add because this thread is about tube rolling and not  much info on the Freya N but it looks like it's a pain to tube roll because the tubes are so far down in the unit compared to the plus. Not much sticking out to grab onto.


You need to try isolating one device at a time, which takes a lot of patience. There is a very slight possibility that you have a bad cable. This is a tedious troubleshooting venture, I wish you well. Let me know what you find.


----------



## Smoothstereo

mmmadog said:


> I just picked up a Freya N from the Schiit sale and I'm having issue's. It's still breaking in but I run my cable TV box to it and my computer thru different dacs and neither has enough drive to make the Freya sound right. Im usually well past 12 o clock on the volume just to hear it. If you raise or lower the volume the dynamics change and there is a serious lack of low end. It's there just very muted. My previous Pre amp was a Burson conductor v1 and it had the same issue. Any help is much appreciated.


Are you feeding the Freya balance XLR in and balance XLR out to amp? In my experience, you get more gain/loudness using all balanced. Single ended RCA is not strong enough.


----------



## mmmadog

Yes used a XLR capable dac yesterday so both XLR in and out to amp. Better but still no good. With the tubes turned off I have to crank volume past 3 o clock to get any volume. I know in car stereo they have line drivers so you can bump up an output of a deck to match different amps. Looking into that. Might start a Freya N thread if there isn't one yet.


----------



## mmmadog

I was using XLR in from my dac and RCA in from my cable box so I switched to all RCA with same results.


----------



## Smoothstereo

mmmadog said:


> I was using XLR in from my dac and RCA in from my cable box so I switched to all RCA with same results.


Are you using the Freya N in a headphone or speaker setup? Im using mine in a headphone setup with balance in from Pontus2 dac and balance out to Jot2 headphone amp in high gain. In tube mode on Freya, my volume knob is at 12 o'clock, maybe a tick or two more and its quite loud (like 75 db average peaking to 80db listening levels from hp).


----------



## Smoothstereo

One thing I noticed on the Freya volume knob, its not linear increasing. It needs to approach 12 o'clock and then gets way louder with every click. But any spot before 12 o'clock, is lower in comparison. It just seems to ramp up from 12 onwards.


----------



## mmmadog

Speakers.


----------



## Smoothstereo

mmmadog said:


> Speakers.


If you are using the Freya not in tube mode, there is zero gain (tube mode has 12 db of gain, so that helps a little), then you probably need to compensate with a higher dac output or (and) an amp with higher gain. The Freya doesn't have adjustable gain setting like some other preamps that are more flexible.


----------



## mmmadog

Yeah been looking at preamps and was going to make sure all of the impedence worked together with what I have and this came up at such a good price. Going to try maybe a CD player or something with higher output and see what that does. Heard even 1 volt makes a big difference in a preamp.


----------



## sam6550a

mmmadog said:


> Yeah I have tried other amps dacs pre amps and they all have the same issue. My sources all have to low of an output. It sucks. Something I want to add because this thread is about tube rolling and not  much info on the Freya N but it looks like it's a pain to tube roll because the tubes are so far down in the unit compared to the plus. Not much sticking out to grab onto.


Get four 9 pin socket savers, they will elevate the tubes.


----------



## sam6550a

Audio volume controls are usually logarithmic.


Smoothstereo said:


> One thing I noticed on the Freya volume knob, its not linear increasing. It needs to approach 12 o'clock and then gets way louder with every click. But any spot before 12 o'clock, is lower in comparison. It just seems to ramp up from 12 onwards.


----------



## ejk1

Knowing what amp you are using would help. My amp requires a high gain pre otherwise I have the same issues you are having. I was thinking about the Freya and sent Schiit an email and they say it will have no problem pushing my amp. Still on the fence about it until I know for sure.


----------



## mmmadog

It's a B&K 125.2 uses both XLR and RCA. It's odd because I previously used the Burson conductor V1 as a preamp and it did the same thing. Sounded all wonky volume way up past 12 o clock just to hear it but sounds fine as a headphone amp. All this replaced a Anthem D1 which worked much better but just don't need all the features it has.


----------



## mmmadog

I also have a audio gd P3 amp and it acts the same way.


----------



## ejk1

Sounds to me like there's a problem with your amp it only needs 2.8 V on the input and your preamp should have close to that


----------



## qwin49

I have a Freya+ which I only use in tube mode.
I had my Okto DAC (balanced) built with 50% less gain than standard and it still sounds pretty loud at 12 o'clock. My LDA phono stage is SE RCA with 64dB output and while not quite the same output level, using a 0.7mV cartridge, it's still quite loud at 12 o'clock, what I would consider normal listening level.
I personally don't like a pre amp that has its volume barely off the stop at normal listening levels, as you are just attenuating the signal from your source and throwing most of it away. That said, you need a decent level.
If you've tried different Dac's and Pre Amps with similar low output, you need to look beyond the Freya. As suggested, check the leads and even your Power amp, what's its sensitivity/gain?


----------



## qwin49

ejk1 said:


> Sounds to me like there's a problem with your amp it only needs 2.8 V on the input and your preamp should have close to that


Most DAC's are putting out 2v or more, you should get a good output level even from a passive pre (0dB) if your power amps sensitivity is 2.8v, that's what's required to achieve max output level, which I suspect would be very LOUD!
Speaker sensitivity?
Have you ever had a decent output level using this Power Amp/Speakers?


----------



## JohnnyOps

Orange5o said:


> Mis-post. Lack of Freya N impressions is puzzling


Is there a Freya N thread somewhere?  I’m trying to work forward from this line from the manual…


> Freya Noval accommodates any 6N1P, 6922, 6N23P, 6DJ8, 6BZ7, ECC88, and other equivalent type noval tubes.


…and get to the actual differences in sonic characteristics and how the Freya N handles them. 

The ever helpful Brent Jesse says this about coming from the Chinese 6N1 (electronically equivalent to the Russian 6N1P):


> Russian 6N1P tubes SOMETIMES can be replaced with 6922, 7308, or 6DJ8 tubes. Some manufacturers approve this substitution, others do not. Check with them first. If the applied plate voltage of the 6N1P is less than 130 volts, then the substitution should work OK.
> 6H30, 6H30P, PI, or DR is a Russian tube with no exact Western subs. The Chinese 6N11 may work, but it is also low quality, so why bother? The pin connections are the same in the 6922, so if your unit does not exceed 125 volts on the tube plates, you may be able to use a much better NOS 6922. Check with your dealer or manufacturer.


So I’m sort of assuming that 6922 and ECC88 (much more often used in “audiophile” discussions) are better families to pursue?  They are certainly what I went after with my Mjolnir 2, so now I’m wondering whether I should just be experimenting with those. 

Any help / recommendations would be very much appreciated. If there’s a separate thread here or elsewhere to help bring me up to speed on tube rolling for the Freya N I’d be mighty thankful!

Thanks!


----------



## AstronomerXI

JohnnyOps said:


> Is there a Freya N thread somewhere?  I’m trying to work forward from this line from the manual…
> 
> …and get to the actual differences in sonic characteristics and how the Freya N handles them.
> 
> ...


I picked up a Freya N during the current sale and I'm mightily pleased with the purchase. I'll post some impressions over the upcoming holiday when I'll have more time.

@Paladin79 was very helpful to myself and another forum member on the Schiit Happened forum when we asked about tube recommendations for the N. He has long experience with tubes and amp building, and I value his input. Based on his suggestions, I placed a couple of orders that I'm waiting on. Here are his comments from a pair of his replies:
 
*Posted November 27, 2022*
https://www.ebay.com/itm/125573805292?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/304714356050?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/225244353691?

These are examples of some for the gain side, (right side)

I might use these in the cathode follower side.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/265915884557?

These could be very good at a low price, 1974 and 1975 are the sought after years but 1973 could be decent.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/285022550800?

an example of 1975 pricing.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/175378135332?

What I normally do is decide on a brand and type and they watch for great deals. I spent as much as six months watching for specific Melz 1578's and they finally showed up.

watch for 1974 and 1975 Reflektors and they will eventually turn up.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/114854759812?

Paladin79 said: 

More possibilities for 6N1P, ECC88,6dj8,6922
I would consider these for the left side pair but you can always swap sides and get a better idea how they sound.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/155247986593? 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/125489198127?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/153866671846?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/254608796018? 

Here are some I would take a chance on just to see if you like the sound.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/325404514244? 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/266012431918?


----------



## Paladin79

AstronomerXI said:


> I picked up a Freya N during the current sale and I'm mightily pleased with the purchase. I'll post some impressions over the upcoming holiday when I'll have more time.
> 
> @Paladin79 was very helpful to myself and another forum member on the Schiit Happened forum when we asked about tube recommendations for the N. He has long experience with tubes and amp building, and I value his input. Based on his suggestions, I placed a couple of orders that I'm waiting on. Here are his comments from a pair of his replies:
> 
> ...


Eventually you will know what you prefer,     have fun!!


----------



## JohnnyOps

AstronomerXI said:


> I picked up a Freya N during the current sale and I'm mightily pleased with the purchase. I'll post some impressions over the upcoming holiday when I'll have more time.
> 
> @Paladin79 was very helpful to myself and another forum member on the Schiit Happened forum when we asked about tube recommendations for the N. He has long experience with tubes and amp building, and I value his input. Based on his suggestions, I placed a couple of orders that I'm waiting on. Here are his comments from a pair of his replies:


So thank you - I guess I’m looking for the theory, not the specifics.  I have a number of 6922 and ECC88 tubes on hand, including some great ones.  I have a Brimar 6922, an Amperex D-getter from 1969, a pair of Electro-Harmonix 6922s, a pair of Sylvania’s that are in boxes so old that they’re falling apart, and some Valvo’s that I think that are probably right, and an extra pair of 6N1Ps (which I have no idea why I have).  But I can’t tell which ones ought to be better on the left or the right… nor why.  I’m going to experiment, but I’m trying to figure out the reason why I’d want to give some a shot in input or power.   Thanks!


----------



## Smoothstereo

JohnnyOps said:


> Is there a Freya N thread somewhere?  I’m trying to work forward from this line from the manual…
> 
> …and get to the actual differences in sonic characteristics and how the Freya N handles them.
> 
> ...


I had the same feeling and questions too a month ago and asked here, but this thread is not as active like some other Schiit threads which I found surprising.

I have over 200 hours on my Freya N now and I'm loving it. I have tried rolling in NOS 6CG7, and with adapters: 12AU7, 12AT7/CV455, and 5670. I might venture in with 6SN7 (with adapters of course) down the road. The odd thing is, I haven't rolled any 6922 or equivalents yet, perhaps this family is too expensive for NOS these days. Hence, I roll with the more affordable family tube types mentioned above. The Freya N is so versatile with tube rolling and so receptive to the different tubes, the possibilities are endless which makes this so great.

So far, I agree with the general sentiment that the right side tubes (input gain) has the more influence on sound. You can hear the differences in tubes more easily. The tubes on the left side (output) has less influence in comparison. Seems like most ppl put their best tubes on the input side and modest ones on the output which is what I am doing. I am still trying to fine tune my Freya N.

More importantly is for each side, both tubes should be matched closely to avoid imbalance and also avoid microphonic tubes to get a cleaner /blacker background.


----------



## qwin49 (Dec 12, 2022)

With all this tube rolling, just be careful. The Freya+ and Freya N have a total heater current of 2.4A max, so make sure any combination used does not exceed this limit.
Tube rolling will tweak the sound slightly, but generally I find you gain in some areas and lose out in others, so you can go insane trying to find that IDEAL tube/combo.
Often its a way of addressing issues created by other kit in the system and is merely compensating for weaknesses elsewhere.
The output caps in the tubed Freya's are Wima's, I would best describe them as adequate and nothing special. This is something I picked up on earlier in this thread and I have a set of V-Cap ODAM's to drop in. Changing the caps could give a more noticeable improvement, as apposed to just sounding different (YMMV).
What ever works for you, works for you, just don't spend the price of the Pre Amp searching for tube Gold.
On my Freya+ I found the Gain tubes had a more significant influence on the sound than the buffer tubes, but some owners have reported the opposite, so go figure.


----------



## JohnnyOps

qwin49 said:


> With all this tube rolling, just be careful. The Freya+ and Freya N have a total heater current of 2.4A max, so make sure any combination used does not exceed this limit.


Thanks for this. I posted this question in the “Main Jason thread” on why you would _want_ to put 6n6p’s in gain stage because sometimes Jason responds there.

I looked up a few data sheets. For heater current:

6n1p = 600 mA, so 4 X 6n1p = 2.4A
6922/ECC88 = 300
6n6p = 750
So just  the “stock contingent” of 4 X 6n1ps adds up to 2.4A, while 2 X 6922/ECC88 + 2 X 6n6p adds up to 2.1A.  But this all still begs the question… why?  Do you get more gain from them? Do they have sonic or other characteristics that are desirable or undesirable?  I get why running 4 “premium” 6922’s might be more “refined” but are you giving anything up?

Basically, as Jason pointed out in the original press release, the Freya N is super flexible. Which is awesome. But now I’m  wondering what to do with that flexibility. All the other tube amps that I’ve had have been “stick this tube type in here”, with the exception of the Mjolnir 2, and there there was so much documentation I had a very good idea (and only two slots, as a hybrid amp).

Thanks!


----------



## ejk1

Does the Freya N on the closeout page come with tubes or are they extra?


----------



## JohnnyOps

ejk1 said:


> Does the Freya N on the closeout page come with tubes or are they extra?


It comes with 4 6n1p’s (at least mine did).  I think unless it were marked it would, but you can always write info@schiit.com if you want to double check, they tend to be pretty responsive!


----------



## AstronomerXI (Dec 12, 2022)

ejk1 said:


> Does the Freya N on the closeout page come with tubes or are they extra?


All of the N's come with tubes. See bolded text below.

"*Freya Noval.* This is our other top-of-the-line tube preamp. I say “other,” because it’s exactly the same as Freya+, with the exception of some operational point changes, and the addition of two small resistors to the gain-setting structure. That’s it. Everything else—differential buffer mode, passive mode, volume ladder, etc…all the same. *The difference is that this one ships with 6N1P tubes,* which we have a zillion of, so you can be assured of supply. The other difference is that you can use a whole lot of different tube combos in this product—6DJ8, 6922, 7308, 6BZ7, ECC88, 6CG7, heck, you can even use 6N6P in two of the slots, combined with two lower-heater-current tubes, because as long as you’re under 2.4A total, you’re fine. (And if all of this crazy heater-current talk makes you nuts, just stick with the 6N1Ps, or try a quad of 6CG7s, or try some premium 6922s as input tubes only.)"


----------



## ejk1

AstronomerXI said:


> All of the N's come with tubes. See bolded text below.
> 
> "*Freya Noval.* This is our other top-of-the-line tube preamp. I say “other,” because it’s exactly the same as Freya+, with the exception of some operational point changes, and the addition of two small resistors to the gain-setting structure. That’s it. Everything else—differential buffer mode, passive mode, volume ladder, etc…all the same. *The difference is that this one ships with 6N1P tubes,* which we have a zillion of, so you can be assured of supply. The other difference is that you can use a whole lot of different tube combos in this product—6DJ8, 6922, 7308, 6BZ7, ECC88, 6CG7, heck, you can even use 6N6P in two of the slots, combined with two lower-heater-current tubes, because as long as you’re under 2.4A total, you’re fine. (And if all of this crazy heater-current talk makes you nuts, just stick with the 6N1Ps, or try a quad of 6CG7s, or try some premium 6922s as input tubes only.)"


So what does the 2 resistors in the gain structure do compared to the Freya+ ?


----------



## AstronomerXI (Dec 12, 2022)

ejk1 said:


> So what does the 2 resistors in the gain structure do compared to the Freya+ ?



Jason replied to my comments about differences between the + and N a couple of weeks ago. In the "Schiit Happened" thread, I quoted a review that said:
“Stoddard pointed out that the Freya Noval isn’t just a Freya+ with different tube sockets. It has different operating points, and a different gain structure, to accommodate the needs of 6922, 6N1P, and other popular noval tubes.”

He replied:
"Yep, same exact preamp, same passive, same differential buffer, different tubes, different operating point..."
(I asked him to explain 'operating point') 
Different tubes need different plate loads, different current, different plate voltages. We changed Freya Noval to optimize for Noval tubes like 6N1P, not octals like 6SN7."

So these resistors are part of optimizing the amp for Noval tubes.


----------



## belgiangenius

Does anyone here actually own both Freya+ and Freya S and can comment on the tube stage of Freya+ vs the Nexus gain stage of Freya S?


----------



## JohnnyOps

Man oh man oh man.

Just dropped my 1959 Amperex Bugle Boys into the right side of my Freya N, and my Genelex Gold Lion 6922s into the left side, and this is what is meant by tube glory.  Schiit.  Roon -> Pi2AES -> Yggdrasil OG -> Freya N -> 2 * Vidar 1's -> KLH Model 5s.  Playing The Band, CCR, Grateful Dead, Dylan, Jethro Tull.  I don't always want music to be presented "romantically" and with a layer of tube glory, but when I do this is what I mean.  Whooooeeeee.  Even my kids who think I'm kinda ridiculous agree this is amazingly different than Spotify on Sonos.  And when I want a more accurate presentation, then, whoopiee doodle, back to the JFET gain or passive.  Dang I love this amp.  But I also can't believe it took me this long to dust off the ol' bugle boys.  I have some late '60's Brimars I'm also psyched to try, and I want to try 6N6Ps just for giggles too.  But this is grand.


----------



## JohnnyOps

Synergist969 said:


> MMM...glad to read all of this regarding Freya...NOW,...if they could only design/manufacture a version of Freya that, (without adversely affecting sound quality), would deactivate the active tube section when one simply wanted to _*NOT*_ actively listen to it...selecting passive or solid-state active mode, for background and/or sleep-time listening...I would be clicking the order button as soon as I finished this note, if not before writing it...


But that is Freya+ / Freya N - you can select fully passive, JFET solid-state gain, or tube.  Takes 15 seconds to engage the tubes while they warm, but that's exactly how it works.  I listen to JFET all day in background mode, kick in the tubes for serious listening for a couple hours.  When you have 65 year old tubes, you want them to last and last and last.  Hit order on a Freya N from B-stock as fast as you can.  It's a GREAT amp.


----------



## AstronomerXI

I've been enjoying my Freya N since I received it a bit over a week ago. All 3 modes, passive, differential, and tube, bring something to the table depending on the music and which amp and headphone combo I choose to go with. I've really been enjoying the upgrade in the sound of my music. The amps in the Freya stack are the Asgard 3 and Piety. I was especially interested in the tube side of things. I have a couple of hybrid tube amp/dacs in the stacks (using 5670 tubes), and while different tubes do make some difference in sound, it's generally subtle, a slightly wider sound stage, more recessed mids, slightly more defined bass, etc. 

I have been using the stock tubes with the Freya, and they sound very different from the other stages. I've really enjoyed them. Playing some jam bands in tube mode through the Piety and my HD650's was a "wow" moment for me, sonically. The improvement in the guitar tones and the overall enjoyment of the music was pronounced. Based on the recommendations from @Paladin79 that I posted on the prior page, I ordered a couple of sets of tubes to try out. My expectations were that there would be a subtle change in tonality, much like my prior experiences with the 5670's. Yesterday afternoon, a pair of Amperex Bugle Boy 6DJ8 ECC88's from 1960 arrived at the post office. I pulled out the stock tubes from the right side (gain) sockets and dropped these in, turned on the amp, and let it warm up for a couple of hours.

After the two hours passed, I settled in for some listening using the Asgard 3 and my Hifiman Sundara cans. I played my long-jam reference songs from Neil Young and Crazy Horse and The Allman Brothers Band first, followed by a random selection of current and past favourites. To call the difference in sound between the stock and new tubes subtle would be like calling the difference between a box of cheap wine and a bottle of Chateau Cheval Blanc 1947 subtle. The Amperex's really brought the tube sound that I had read about and did not expect to this degree with the Freya N. Neil's vocals remained prominent and clear but his guitar sound was dramatically enhanced, as was Frank Sampedro's rhythm guitar. The bass was a couple of notches tighter than with the stock tubes. There was no need to turn on the tube stage of my DAC to bring focus to the bass guitar. I guess the terms euphonic and 3D very much apply here. I couldn't stop listening to music for another 3 hours. I expect listening to music via these tubes through the Piety will be harmonic distortion overkill, but I'll try it anyway 😀.

Yeah, I'm very pleased with these tubes and can recommend them for guitar-based rock. The vocal harmonies of Fleet Foxes were taken to another level as well. I haven't tried the Bugle Boys with classic jazz or folk yet. That will  be over the next couple of weeks. So, another huge "Thank you" to @Paladin79. Your recommendation was spot-on and I couldn't be happier with the purchase. I'll be working my way through your list of tubes to try over the coming year.


----------



## AstronomerXI

JohnnyOps said:


> Man oh man oh man.
> 
> Just dropped my 1959 Amperex Bugle Boys into the right side of my Freya N, and my Genelex Gold Lion 6922s into the left side, and this is what is meant by tube glory.  Schiit.  Roon -> Pi2AES -> Yggdrasil OG -> Freya N -> 2 * Vidar 1's -> KLH Model 5s.  Playing The Band, CCR, Grateful Dead, Dylan, Jethro Tull.  I don't always want music to be presented "romantically" and with a layer of tube glory, but when I do this is what I mean.  Whooooeeeee.  Even my kids who think I'm kinda ridiculous agree this is amazingly different than Spotify on Sonos.  And when I want a more accurate presentation, then, whoopiee doodle, back to the JFET gain or passive.  Dang I love this amp.  But I also can't believe it took me this long to dust off the ol' bugle boys.  I have some late '60's Brimars I'm also psyched to try, and I want to try 6N6Ps just for giggles too.  But this is grand.


LOL! We pretty much posted at the same time our experiences with similarly aged Bugle Boys in our N's! I know EXACTLY what you're talking about!


----------



## Paladin79

AstronomerXI said:


> LOL! We pretty much posted at the same time our experiences with similarly aged Bugle Boys in our N's! I know EXACTLY what you're talking about!


The Bugle Boys are sought after tubes for a reason, enjoy!


----------



## ejk1 (Dec 19, 2022)

Freya N just delivered by Fed Ex. Was a little puzzled that the tubes are random not matched. looks like a few different makes due to the size. I have some 6922 I will throw in after I listen to the stock tubes a bit


----------



## ejk1 (Dec 19, 2022)

Plopped in the 6922 on the left side. I found the 4 stock tubes fatiguing. The 6922 warmed up the sound a bit. I know I have to let it break in but if I don't like it from the beginning, I will not waste my time. I'll have to try and get used to the annoying sound the volume control makes.


----------



## Smoothstereo

Most stock tubes are not that great. I had better results with NOS tubes of my own collection. Give the Freya about 100 hours of play time on the tube section, it should settle in quite nicely.


----------



## mmmadog

Hey posted earlier that I got the Freya N and had issue's with it not sounding good in my system because of Impedance  issue's going from my dac and cable box to the Freya. Did some research and found this Burson AB-160 rca buffer. Wow what a difference. Great dynamics and finally great low end.


----------



## sahmen

mmmadog said:


> Hey posted earlier that I got the Freya N and had issue's with it not sounding good in my system because of Impedance  issue's going from my dac and cable box to the Freya. Did some research and found this Burson AB-160 rca buffer. Wow what a difference. Great dynamics and finally great low end.


Do you have a link to the buffer, and could you kindly explain what exactly it does for the Freya N?


----------



## paradoxper

sahmen said:


> Do you have a link to the buffer, and could you kindly explain what exactly it does for the Freya N?


It seems his sources were low output, too low, so he's using what is an impedance matcher as more of a gain booster to the Freya not for the Freya.


----------



## qwin49

@sahmen
It would appear there was an impedance miss match.
In simple terms, an amp, pre amp, or source etc. should have a high impedance input and a low impedance output.
The output should be at least ten times smaller than the input of the next device in the chain.
The Freya has a relatively low input impedance of 10kohm, some valve gear can be 100kohm or more on the input.
If his DAC or any other source, has more than 1kohm output impedance, it will be a poor match with the Freya.
Placing a buffer stage between the DAC and the Freya reduces the impedance the Freya sees and restores the 10 to 1, or better, ratio. A useful bit of kit to have.
Note: the two tubes on the left of the Freya are an output buffer stage and gives the maximum flexibility when choosing which power amps you can connected to it. The Freya output is 75ohm SE and 600ohm balanced.
Its amazing how many people build a system without taking impedance into account. They will scrutinise gain and sensitivity, buy a piece of kit and then give it a bad review, when it wasn't a good match for their set up in the first place.

Hope that helps.


----------



## mmmadog

https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/burson-audio-ab-160-rca-audio-buffer-stage-playback-44/


----------



## belgiangenius

Smoothstereo said:


> I had the same feeling and questions too a month ago and asked here, but this thread is not as active like some other Schiit threads which I found surprising.
> 
> I have over 200 hours on my Freya N now and I'm loving it. I have tried rolling in NOS 6CG7, and with adapters: 12AU7, 12AT7/CV455, and 5670. I might venture in with 6SN7 (with adapters of course) down the road. The odd thing is, I haven't rolled any 6922 or equivalents yet, perhaps this family is too expensive for NOS these days. Hence, I roll with the more affordable family tube types mentioned above. The Freya N is so versatile with tube rolling and so receptive to the different tubes, the possibilities are endless which makes this so great.
> 
> ...



Hey, which adapters did you use for 12AU7/12AT7?


----------



## belgiangenius (Dec 24, 2022)

Smoothstereo said:


> Has anyone gotten a Freya N and rolled in some 12AU7/12AT7 tubes with adapter? No issues , correct?





Smoothstereo said:


> Has anyone gotten a Freya N and rolled in some 12AU7/12AT7 tubes with adapter? No issues , correct?



Hope so.  I just ordered a Freya N on closeout since I have lots of great 12AU7/AT7 tubes around like Telefunken ECC801S and Amperex Bugle Boy ECC82.

Will see how much it sounds like hemorrhoidal ass, as Mike Moffat insists.  🤣


----------



## Smoothstereo

belgiangenius said:


> Hey, which adapters did you use for 12AU7/12AT7?


I bought some adapters from Pulsetubestore, 12Axx to 6922. Works great and more importantly fits the tube hole opening on the Freya N.


----------



## belgiangenius

Smoothstereo said:


> I bought some adapters from Pulsetubestore, 12Axx to 6922. Works great and more importantly fits the tube hole opening on the Freya N.



Sweet - those are NOT made in China.  Ordered.  Thanks.


----------



## Smoothstereo

belgiangenius said:


> Sweet - those are NOT made in China.  Ordered.  Thanks.


Yeah these are premium adapters from what I can see. Good luck with the tube rolling.


----------



## rfernand (Dec 25, 2022)

I’ve been enjoying Freya+ for about a month now. Tube-wise, I found JJ and Tung-Sol to provide the sound I tend to enjoy the most. The placement may seem counterintuitive to some, but hey, if it works, I stop touching.


----------



## supersonic395

Is there a Freya S thread as this seems more for the tube version?


----------



## Orange5o

belgiangenius said:


> Hope so.  I just ordered a Freya N on closeout since I have lots of great 12AU7/AT7 tubes around like Telefunken ECC801S and Amperex Bugle Boy ECC82.
> 
> Will see how much it sounds like hemorrhoidal ass, as Mike Moffat insists.  🤣


Any updates here? There seems to be a real lack of plus vs N comparisons, just one article found via Google. Would love to know if the N sounds inferior at all to the plus. Thanks!


----------



## supersonic395

I have a subwoofer (SVS PB3000) which uses one of the LR inputs from my HT receiver. 

Is it possible if I wanted to integrate a subwoofer into a separate stereo chain using a Freya, that I could run a set of SE RCA outputs from the Freya to a y cable joiner to sum the inputs and feed it into the remaining available input on the Subwoofer please? The actual L and R speakers are powered by an Emotiva Power amp.


----------



## AstronomerXI (Dec 27, 2022)

Orange5o said:


> Any updates here? There seems to be a real lack of plus vs N comparisons, just one article found via Google. Would love to know if the N sounds inferior at all to the plus. Thanks!


The only real difference is the type of tube either takes and the requirements to accomodate either type. I had a question on just this and Jason Stoddard replied:

“Stoddard pointed out that the Freya Noval isn’t just a Freya+ with different tube sockets. It has different operating points, and a different gain structure, to accommodate the needs of 6922, 6N1P, and other popular noval tubes.”

@Jason Stoddard, can you comment? 
(JS): Yep, same exact preamp, same passive, same differential buffer, different tubes, different operating point.


----------



## rfernand

So.. _“same schiit, different tubes”_


----------



## Orange5o

AstronomerXI said:


> The only real difference is the type of tube either takes and the requirements to accomodate either type. I had a question on just this and Jason Stoddard replied:
> 
> “Stoddard pointed out that the Freya Noval isn’t just a Freya+ with different tube sockets. It has different operating points, and a different gain structure, to accommodate the needs of 6922, 6N1P, and other popular noval tubes.”
> 
> ...


Yes, but they will absolutely sound different.


----------



## mmmadog

I really doubt someone with a Freya + is going to buy a Noval thinking it's better and vice versa. Only reason they did the Noval is because tubes are more readily available.


----------



## AstronomerXI

Orange5o said:


> Yes, but they will absolutely sound different.


Sure, the tube stages will be different because tubes, and the same unit will absolutely sound different with different tubes. There will be no difference in the passive and differential stages. The main driver for most folks will be their preference in tube types. For me, a tube-noob, the closeout N was too good a deal to pass up, and the Amperex tubes I picked up on a recommendation created exactly the sound that I was after, so for me, the N is a no-regret choice.


----------



## Smoothstereo

The Freya N theoretically/technically can accommodate a 6SN7 tube with the right adapter. Which then makes me think how close will that sound compared to a Freya+ with the same exact 6SN7 tube. 

Some day I might roll in some 6SN7s down the road to hear how it sounds to scratch that itch. But I don't have a Freya+ to compare. However, I am greatly enjoying rolling in 12AU7/12AT7 family of tubes right now that I am not motivated to try anything else.


----------



## mmmadog

I'm actually having to send my Noval tubes back to Schiit. It has an odd issue where from the middle of my speakers to the right it sounds like there is more musical info than on the left side. I tried gaming and the bad guys all sounded like they where all on top of me. No directional clues at all. I did notice 3 tubes have no markings and one tube has CCCP on it.


----------



## rfernand




----------



## Orange5o

mmmadog said:


> I really doubt someone with a Freya + is going to buy a Noval thinking it's better and vice versa. Only reason they did the Noval is because tubes are more readily available.


Well i asked him because he did indeed purchase it, with the intent to see how it compares to his +, so...


----------



## JohnnyOps (Dec 28, 2022)

I own both an N and a +. They have never been in the same system - they live in two separate houses with different speakers, turntables, DACs and power amplification. The different tube types are going to create different opportunities for rolling. I bought the + long before the N came out and I had to purchase a few new tubes for it since I didn’t own any that would fit the +, and I happened on a few that made me quite happy and I quit rolling. I happened to have quite a few 6922 / ECC88 / 6DJ8’s around because of my Mjolnir 2 rolling so when the N came out I became quite happy to be able to roll my “old” (in fact often 60+ years old) tubes and continue to do so because I have so many permutations and experience listening on the MJ2. 

All of which is to say that I still run both amps in SS mode 80%+ of the time, because I’m not sitting and listening, but rather reading, entertaining, talking, doing a project, cooking in the kitchen next door, etc. I really only bring the tubes into the circuit when I “sit down to listen”. And while you can do what you wish, if you have 65 year old bugle boys and you’re “using them up” while pottering around the house, that would make me a little bit sad, as there are only so many of them.

I can say with modest confidence that the solid state portion of the amps is identical, and that to the extent that you are comparing the tube sections what you are hearing is differences in the tubes themselves. But I have never done side by side except when I was making a decision between two components, because to me personally that is nervosa - I know what I like.

I should say too that I would prefer to have an N vs a +. If anyone has a black N and wants a silver + I’m happy to trade. The only reason being that I have all these tubes and don’t need to make my life more complex. DM me please if you are interested. 

Good luck!


----------



## belgiangenius (Dec 28, 2022)

JohnnyOps said:


> I own both an N and a +. They have never been in the same system - they live in two separate houses with different speakers, turntables, DACs and power amplification. The different tube types are going to create different opportunities for rolling. I bought the + long before the N came out and I had to purchase a few new tubes for it since I didn’t own any that would fit the +, and I happened on a few that made me quite happy and I quit rolling. I happened to have quite a few 6922 / ECC88 / 6DJ8’s around because of my Mjolnir 2 rolling so when the N came out I became quite happy to be able to roll my “old” (in fact often 60+ years old) tubes and continue to do so because I have so many permutations and experience listening on the MJ2.
> 
> All of which is to say that I still run both amps in SS mode 80%+ of the time, because I’m not sitting and listening, but rather reading, entertaining, talking, doing a project, cooking in the kitchen next door, etc. I really only bring the tubes into the circuit when I “sit down to listen”. And while you can do what you wish, if you have 65 year old bugle boys and you’re “using them up” while pottering around the house, that would make me a little bit sad, as there are only so many of them.
> 
> ...



Interesting.  I am in almost exactly the same situation.  I've had the + for some time and ordered the N for similar reasons.

I too only engage the tubes when I'm sitting down to focus on enjoying the music.

Where else can you compare the best 6SN7 to the best noval tubes on exactly the same gear?

Eventually the + or the N will move to the basement.  We'll see which!


----------



## supersonic395

Aside from the SE/BAL conversion, is there any advantage to using either 1x or 4x gain besides volume? Like does the Nexus improve the sound in any way aside from the two advantages noted above?


----------



## KoshNaranek

Owner of OG Freya and Freya N here. Mine are also on two different systems in two different houses.

Bought mine because I extensively rolled my Valhalla. I think that it is easier to find good new production tubes of more modest cost than the big Freya.

I am not sorry that I got it at all.


----------



## sahmen

KoshNaranek said:


> Owner of OG Freya and Freya N here. Mine are also on two different systems in two different houses.
> 
> Bought mine because I extensively rolled my Valhalla. I think that it is easier to find good new production tubes of more modest cost than the big Freya.
> 
> I am not sorry that I got it at all.


"Big Freya"? Is the Freya N smaller than the +? Not trying to be a smart**z.  I am genuinely curious about this, because I only have the N version. Happy New Year


----------



## sahmen

I am seriously tempted to get a second Freya N just for kicks because of the price, but I wouldn't know where to deploy it yet, and also my wallet might chide me a little too loudly for my lack of discipline... So I must resist... resist... and resist...


----------



## AstronomerXI

sahmen said:


> "Big Freya"? Is the Freya N smaller than the +? Not trying to be a smart**z.  I am genuinely curious about this, because I only have the N version. Happy New Year


The tube types in the Freya + are usually larger - sometimes much larger -  than the Noval type. Both the + and N share the same chassis.


----------



## supersonic395

On the Freya S I can hear noticeable hiss from the listening position with both 1x and 4x gain settings. My speakers aren't the most sensitive either at 87db and 4 Ohm. Using an Emotiva XPA Gen3 Power amp and never had hiss before. I know hiss is mentioned in the manual.

Thinking to just run it passively or maybe Freya S isn't right for this system. Does the Saga S have hiss issues?


----------



## ejk1

supersonic395 said:


> On the Freya S I can hear noticeable hiss from the listening position with both 1x and 4x gain settings. My speakers aren't the most sensitive either at 87db and 4 Ohm. Using an Emotiva XPA Gen3 Power amp and never had hiss before. I know hiss is mentioned in the manual.
> 
> Thinking to just run it passively or maybe Freya S isn't right for this system. Does the Saga S have hiss issues?


Are you using xlr connection? If not try it


----------



## supersonic395

ejk1 said:


> Are you using xlr connection? If not try it



That had even more hiss in both gain modes, so sticking with SE.


----------



## inmytaxi

Does anyone else wish the tubes didn't turn off after 10 seconds in buffer mode? At least 30 seconds or a minute would be better and seems like 10 seconds is pointless.


----------



## inmytaxi (Jan 1, 2023)

supersonic395 said:


> On the Freya S I can hear noticeable hiss from the listening position with both 1x and 4x gain settings. My speakers aren't the most sensitive either at 87db and 4 Ohm. Using an Emotiva XPA Gen3 Power amp and never had hiss before. I know hiss is mentioned in the manual.
> 
> Thinking to just run it passively or maybe Freya S isn't right for this system. Does the Saga S have hiss issues?


The Freya+ doesn't have audible hiss. Can you hear the hiss while music is playing? Thinking about an N as an investment. Can't believe this won't go up in price a bit in the next few years.


----------



## supersonic395

inmytaxi said:


> The Freya+ doesn't have audible hiss. Can you hear the hiss while music is playing? Thinking about an N as an investment. Can't believe this won't go up in price a bit in the next few years.



It's hard to hear when music is playing but I know it's there - the passive sounds best tbh.


----------



## inmytaxi

supersonic395 said:


> It's hard to hear when music is playing but I know it's there - the passive sounds best tbh.


Well, I don't think your fellow audiophiles will criticize your system because of hiss you can't even hear.


----------



## stuh2o

Anyone have service issues with their freya+? Mine is going back for a 3rd repair in a year.  2 times have had loud pops when changing modes from tube to passive and a burning smell.  Sent in twice and it chugs along fine for a couple of months but last night it clicked off on its own and the now familiar burning smell filled the room.  This has happened with stock tubes, nos rcas (tube depot I think) and new production from upscale audio so I don’t think it’s bad tubes. Although the pre may be smoking the tubes so I feel I’m out a few hundred in tube replacement. 

Schitt has graciously offered to pay the return shipping for warranty repairs this time but man  this is frustrating. Its no fun when I’m listening  for the pre to die instead of music. 

Any experienced Schitt owners have any advice?  Is it possible this is just bad unit? I like the sound of this pre and use other schiitt products but the value proposition with my freya is shrinking fast. 

Thanks for letting me vent lol. 

Stu


----------



## JohnnyOps

stuh2o said:


> Anyone have service issues with their freya+? Mine is going back for a 3rd repair in a year.  2 times have had loud pops when changing modes from tube to passive and a burning smell.  Sent in twice and it chugs along fine for a couple of months but last night it clicked off on its own and the now familiar burning smell filled the room.  This has happened with stock tubes, nos rcas (tube depot I think) and new production from upscale audio so I don’t think it’s bad tubes. Although the pre may be smoking the tubes so I feel I’m out a few hundred in tube replacement.
> 
> Schitt has graciously offered to pay the return shipping for warranty repairs this time but man  this is frustrating. Its no fun when I’m listening  for the pre to die instead of music.
> 
> ...


Sorry to hear this.  When I first bought a F+, I had a click/pop/burning smell in the first ten minutes I owned it, and they took it right back and sent me a new one and no issues since.  My FN has never had issues.  I wish I was a more talented electrical engineer and could take an educated guess.  All I can say is that sucks.  Can you get the person who repairs it to give you a couple minutes on the phone afterwards?  Never did that with Schiit, but have done that for other firms’ components that have gone back multiple times, and it was helpful - in that case (turntable) I did have something in my setup that was increasing the likelihood of an issue, added a different type of power conditioner and never recurred (not saying causal, but it was helpful to hear from the person who fixed it what might be going on).


----------



## stuh2o (Jan 3, 2023)

I don’t think Schiit  talks with folks on the phone although that would be helpful. I’ll reach out after they receive the unit.


----------



## PoMarantz

stuh2o said:


> Anyone have service issues with their freya+? Mine is going back for a 3rd repair in a year.  2 times have had loud pops when changing modes from tube to passive and a burning smell.  Sent in twice and it chugs along fine for a couple of months but last night it clicked off on its own and the now familiar burning smell filled the room.  This has happened with stock tubes, nos rcas (tube depot I think) and new production from upscale audio so I don’t think it’s bad tubes. Although the pre may be smoking the tubes so I feel I’m out a few hundred in tube replacement.
> 
> Schitt has graciously offered to pay the return shipping for warranty repairs this time but man  this is frustrating. Its no fun when I’m listening  for the pre to die instead of music.
> 
> ...


Hi Stu...MAN that sucks.  I can give a clean report on my Schiit Freya+.  It has worked fine since day one and I also added a Loki Max to the stack and both units are fantastic for my accompanying gear.   I am not that experienced with with PreAmps..and I would say from an expenditure standpoint the Freya + is one of my least expensive components....so if I make any changes in my system I would start there as it is something that I am curious about.  Would a $3-$4K Preamp make that much difference in the sound quality and which ones would I consider....(I have no clue). 
I have had the Freya in my system for well over a year and have done a bit of tube rolling..I currently have 3 sets of tubes ...but that is another discussion. The Freya had performed flawlessly. It is extremely quiet, even with tubes.  I bought some tubes on ebay from a sketchy seller and had some issues with the tubes..NOT my Freya. I got some tube noise and one of his tubes arrived spent and it scared the crap out of my as it had the driver on my left channel going in and out in a very upsetting way.....but that was his tube and seems to have done no damage to my expensive speaker.   PHEW! Lesson learned...pay the price for reputable tube sellers (I thought he was...LOL).
..I use the unit almost everyday...so it has some time on it...and 90% of the time in tube-mode. It gets hot..oh yeah...but I keep it ventilated and all seems good. So I can tell you that there are good units out there...I do not know what the percentage is of people having issues...There are quite a few on this thread... Relative to tube PreAmps...this is a very affordable one...so maybe the way that it is constructed and the heat it lending itself to malfunction...but I have been all good here. Hope that helps.
--Bob


----------



## stuh2o

PoMarantz said:


> Hi Stu...MAN that sucks.  I can give a clean report on my Schiit Freya+.  It has worked fine since day one and I also added a Loki Max to the stack and both units are fantastic for my accompanying gear.   I am not that experienced with with PreAmps..and I would say from an expenditure standpoint the Freya + is one of my least expensive components....so if I make any changes in my system I would start there as it is something that I am curious about.  Would a $3-$4K Preamp make that much difference in the sound quality and which ones would I consider....(I have no clue).
> I have had the Freya in my system for well over a year and have done a bit of tube rolling..I currently have 3 sets of tubes ...but that is another discussion. The Freya had performed flawlessly. It is extremely quiet, even with tubes.  I bought some tubes on ebay from a sketchy seller and had some issues with the tubes..NOT my Freya. I got some tube noise and one of his tubes arrived spent and it scared the crap out of my as it had the driver on my left channel going in and out in a very upsetting way.....but that was his tube and seems to have done no damage to my expensive speaker.   PHEW! Lesson learned...pay the price for reputable tube sellers (I thought he was...LOL).
> ..I use the unit almost everyday...so it has some time on it...and 90% of the time in tube-mode. It gets hot..oh yeah...but I keep it ventilated and all seems good. So I can tell you that there are good units out there...I do not know what the percentage is of people having issues...There are quite a few on this thread... Relative to tube PreAmps...this is a very affordable one...so maybe the way that it is constructed and the heat it lending itself to malfunction...but I have been all good here. Hope that helps.
> --Bob


Thanks for everyone’s help. It’s nice just have an outlet to voice my frustrations. 
I use the system everyday and mostly in tube mode. I have a bit previous experience with tubes and this is not just a noisy tube. Although no guarantee I only buy tubes from reputable dealers. 

It has always ran hot in tube mode but it was cooking when it shut down last night. I have it well ventilated on its own shelf with at least 10 inches above and below the other shelves. Additionally,  it’s elevated with isoacoustic footers. 

You hi-lighted my biggest fear. Not only is it drag wondering if the pre is going to fail again but I really worry about it taking out an amp or my expensive speakers.It has popped loud enough to put the corresponding channels aegir in protection mode. That was the second repair. Fortunately it died quietly last night.


----------



## ejk1

Just got a Freya + delivered this morning and no sound. Volume goes up with remote and stops halfway through and then will not come down via remote. Left tube side doesn't appear to be lighting up either and no clicking sound heard from relay. Waiting to hear back from Schiit


----------



## khashmi

All these issues with quality control are frankly terrifying. I’ve had my Freya + plus for a year now and thank God, no issues even with daily tube mode usage. Makes me wonder, how long it will last and if I need to baby it more.


----------



## ejk1

They said the tech couldn't figure the problem out and asked if I wanted to exchange or return it so i just said exchange. I hope I don't have to wait long


----------



## inmytaxi

stuh2o said:


> I don’t think Schiit  talks with folks on the phone although that would be helpful. I’ll reach out after they receive the unit.


One might think when it comes in for a second repair they'd already have reached out.  Schiit really needs to get over the lack of wanting to interface with customers, though I get why.


----------



## AstronomerXI

khashmi said:


> All these issues with quality control are frankly terrifying. I’ve had my Freya + plus for a year now and thank God, no issues even with daily tube mode usage. Makes me wonder, how long it will last and if I need to baby it more.


To be fair, Jason has been up-front with the relative volume of tech support issues they have. The volume of failures will never be non-zero for any company. As it is, they only require 1 technician each for their digital and analog sides of the product lines. Human nature is that people who do have issues will be (rightly) disappointed/upset and will want to air this. Satisfied customers whose systems just work got what they expected and rarely comment.

They do test all product that leave the factory, including listening. What can’t be caught at that time are intermittent problems due to a faulty component - a capacitor, resistor, etc. I used to work for a major distributor of electronic components, and the worst issues for everybody were the ones where a part didn’t fail immediately. I remember years ago when Dell had a batch of motherboards that all had faulty caps that died prematurely months or a couple years after being sold. Not fun for anyone. The offer for replacement is fair.


----------



## stuh2o

AstronomerXI said:


> To be fair, Jason has been up-front with the relative volume of tech support issues they have. The volume of failures will never be non-zero for any company. As it is, they only require 1 technician each for their digital and analog sides of the product lines. Human nature is that people who do have issues will be (rightly) disappointed/upset and will want to air this. Satisfied customers whose systems just work got what they expected and rarely comment.
> 
> They do test all product that leave the factory, including listening. What can’t be caught at that time are intermittent problems due to a faulty component - a capacitor, resistor, etc. I used to work for a major distributor of electronic components, and the worst issues for everybody were the ones where a part didn’t fail immediately. I remember years ago when Dell had a batch of motherboards that all had faulty caps that died prematurely months or a couple years after being sold. Not fun for anyone. The offer for replacement is


----------



## stuh2o (Jan 3, 2023)

In my case I’d gladly take a replacement. Frankly I’m a little disappointed this hasn’t been offered yet. In their defense they did pay for shipping this time and told me they would reach out when they receive the unit. But if they repair and ship it back I have little faith it won’t smoke out again in a few months. I would never sell it based on its service history so I’m out of options. Between shipping it twice and the tubes I assume it fried( I have no way to test other than plugging them back in the pre) this has been an expensive and disappointing endeavor.  You are correct, I’m sure this is no fun for anyone.


----------



## AstronomerXI

stuh2o said:


> In my case I’d gladly take a replacement. Frankly I’m a little disappointed this hasn’t been offed yet. In their defense they did pay for shipping this time and told me they would reach out when they receive the unit. But if they repair and ship it back I have little faith it won’t smoke out again in a few months. I would never sell it based on its service history so I’m out of options. Between shipping it twice and the tubes I assume it fried( I have no way to test other than plugging them back in the pre) this has been an expensive and disappointing endeavor.  You are correct, I’m sure this is no fun for anyone.


I’d just ask that it be replaced. I suspect there’s a fault somewhere on the board or power supply.


----------



## stuh2o (Jan 3, 2023)

AstronomerXI said:


> I’d just ask that it be replaced. I suspect there’s a fault somewhere on the board or power supply.


I did..they said my request would be added to the ticket and they would reach out when they receive it.

Again, I’m not trying to bash schiit. They have been responsive throughout the purchase. Just disappointed and needed somewhere to vent. My wife can only take so much. 

Thanks for everyone’s input and help, 
Stu


----------



## PoMarantz

khashmi said:


> All these issues with quality control are frankly terrifying. I’ve had my Freya + plus for a year now and thank God, no issues even with daily tube mode usage. Makes me wonder, how long it will last and if I need to baby it more.


Are we the LUCKY FEW? 😨


----------



## AstronomerXI

PoMarantz said:


> Are we the LUCKY FEW? 😨


No, we are the vast majority without issues.


----------



## rkindel

stuh2o said:


> Anyone have service issues with their freya+? Mine is going back for a 3rd repair in a year.  2 times have had loud pops when changing modes from tube to passive and a burning smell.  Sent in twice and it chugs along fine for a couple of months but last night it clicked off on its own and the now familiar burning smell filled the room.  This has happened with stock tubes, nos rcas (tube depot I think) and new production from upscale audio so I don’t think it’s bad tubes. Although the pre may be smoking the tubes so I feel I’m out a few hundred in tube replacement.
> 
> Schitt has graciously offered to pay the return shipping for warranty repairs this time but man  this is frustrating. Its no fun when I’m listening  for the pre to die instead of music.
> 
> ...


It took two Freyas before I got a reliable unit. The first on gave out loud popping sounds when in tube mode. The second one would revert to passive mode when in tube mode. The second time was the end of my Freya+ problems. Mine has operating for 2 years now flawlessly.


----------



## ejk1

It's been 3 hrs since I last heard from Schiit. Responded I would take an exchange verse a refund but have not heard back. Hope they will ship a new one today


----------



## Claude Debussy

Hello all, I have started reading this tread since a few days ago an very much have been enjoying it! I very rarely post in the treads, but felt compelled to do so since I am unfortunately experiencing all sort of malfunctions with my brand new Freya N, similarly to what other users are experiencing. I bought it new from the close out section at the discounted price, which was very nice, and received it last Friday. Right from the start I noticed that the unit was getting very hot in the tube mode. I also had all sort of issues when going from passive to the differential buffer mode; at times the volume was the same, at other times it was lauder, and some times even softer. Also, when changing outputs the Freya N acted as it had a will of its own; at times it produced sound when changed, at times it didn't, and at one time it produced a really loud sound as if was playing at max volume - this one was very scary as I though I blew one channel of my headphone amp (Audio GD Master 9)! After this I decided that it was not a good idea to preamp the Master 9, which has already a great volume control, but I just wanted to try the Freya's tube mode to see how it changed its very precise solid state clarity. Then finally yesterday in the morning the tube mode stopped working while trying to connect my studio motors though RCA cables (Adam A77X). This time the right speaker made a loud sound, and then the left speaker went on protection mode and stopped producing sound through the RCA connection. After this the left monitor stopped producing sound through the RCA connection, no matter what source I plugged it into - fortunately the XLR connections work fine with my other sources. On looking at the Freya N, I noticed that the output side of the tubes (left) doesn't light up under these two tubes in any of the Freya stages. 

I contacted Schiit in the morning asking for help with these issues, but haven't heard back from them yet. I was really enjoying this preamp, the first one of this class I tried, specially with my small Stax system (Yggdrassil - Lokius - SRM-353x - L300, L700, Sr-007a). In any of the modes, but specially the tube mode with stock tubes, the Freya N really improves the sound and provides a lot of body and depth to the sound of these ear-speakers. I hope I can get a replacement Freya N, because after plugin it to my Stax system I can't live without it! 

Anyways, I apologize for the long post, I just needed to vent my frustration. Thanks for reading.


----------



## Borat

I took delivery of a closeout Freya N the other day. I've listened to it for about 6 hours in tube buffer mode and about 30 minutes in passive mode with no issues so far.

I hope those that are having issues will get taken care of by Schiit.

Even with the stock 6N1P tubes, I am very pleased with the sound so far.

I was waffling between buying the Freya N at closeout or a less expensive used Freya S from the sale forum. I'm glad I went for the Noval version as I forgot how much I enjoyed what tubes can do. Haven't had any tube gear since a Singlepower PPX3 Slam and Eddie Current HD300 back in the day (blast from the past  ).

I wanted the Freya mainly for the multiple input/output flexibility and remote volume control for my sources, but I was prepared to not hear any sonic difference with it inserted between my DAC and integrated amplifier.

Happy to report so far I feel it is an improvement over the pre-amp section of my integrated. More liquid midrange, which sounds great for music with strings and acoustic guitar.

I just ordered some Amperex Bugle Boy tubes to see if I can get even better sound.


----------



## ejk1

Borat said:


> I took delivery of a closeout Freya N the other day. I've listened to it for about 6 hours in tube buffer mode and about 30 minutes in passive mode with no issues so far.
> 
> I hope those that are having issues will get taken care of by Schiit.
> 
> ...




They sent me a return label yesterday to do an exchange, but I have not received any info on when I will get a new unit. Seems like it may have been quicker turn around if I just ordered a new one and then let them refund my original purchase. I sent my reply that the unit was shipped back at 1000 AM EST so I would think they could have shipped me a new one out but since then I have no response. Not to be impatient but the unit was defective out of the box and to have to wait until they receive the original one and I get a new one may be at least 2 weeks


----------



## Smoothstereo

Based on my past experience, once they see movement on the return tracking number, Schiit will send out the replacement unit. They don't wait for the defective unit to arrive first before sending out the replacement. Given the holiday sales and returns, that may impact their speediness. But I am sure they will take care of you as they did with me.


----------



## ejk1

Cool


----------



## PoMarantz

Borat said:


> I took delivery of a closeout Freya N the other day. I've listened to it for about 6 hours in tube buffer mode and about 30 minutes in passive mode with no issues so far.
> 
> I hope those that are having issues will get taken care of by Schiit.
> 
> ...


Please report back after BugleBoy use! 🙂


----------



## PoMarantz (Jan 5, 2023)

ejk1 said:


> They sent me a return label yesterday to do an exchange, but I have not received any info on when I will get a new unit. Seems like it may have been quicker turn around if I just ordered a new one and then let them refund my original purchase. I sent my reply that the unit was shipped back at 1000 AM EST so I would think they could have shipped me a new one out but since then I have no response. Not to be impatient but the unit was defective out of the box and to have to wait until they receive the original one and I get a new one may be at least 2 weeks


Welcome to the world of HiFi obsession! 😀
I bought non returnable, expensive gear from China…oh…it would take two pages here to detail my sonic and financial pain! 😂😂😂 Patience is required to enjoy this pursuit and to learn…otherwise it’s a miserable experience. STUFF HAPPENS…..🤷🏻‍♂️


----------



## cobrabucket (Jan 5, 2023)

Bought a Freya N at close out. I was on the fence, but saw they were selling quickly. I bought it late last night and they were sold out this morning. Glad I bought one when I did!
I ordered this to compare with a Topping Pre90. I like the Pre90 but am not blown away by it. I feel that my system is missing something and I'm hoping the Freya N will be the key!


----------



## Borat (Jan 5, 2023)

I wonder how many more small dumps of Freya N's they will continue to offer on closeout, or if this last one was truly the end.

I snagged the last of the previous dump of about 9 (115VAC) they had up about a week ago. Honestly, seeing the stock number drop down from like 6 to 2 in one day pushed me over the edge.

Schiit should just say they are putting every model on closeout and see how many they can sell hahaha.

Question for those that have the Freya N and got Bugle Boys for it:

It is recommended if you use two Bugle Boy ECC88 (350 mA each) to pair them with either 2 6N6P (750 mA each) or 2 6H6P tubes (800 mA each) so you can get the total gain to about 2.2 A to 2.3 A, correct?

Which type is better, 6N6P or 6H6P? Does it matter? Also which side on the Freya N are you supposed to put the Bugle Boy ECC88s?


----------



## buckit

Picked up a Freya N on close out yesterday. Hoping to get it delivered this week. I have two National Matsushita PC88/7DJ8 tubes and wondering if I can try rolling them on the right or left side? Anyone have experience with rolling 7DJ8 tubes in the Freya N. From what I could find, the heater ma is 300. Together with the stock tube, it would get me below 2.4 max and closer to 1.8 I believe.


----------



## roncruiser

Well, I've been spending a lot of time with the Freya+.

The Freya+ is my first tubed audio device ever! I've never owned tubed audio equipment of any type until now. I tell you what... I'm really enjoying the heck out it! I'm floored by the sound generated by the Freya+

I have the Freya+ going into KRK Rokit 5 G4 power monitors on my at home work desktop.

Simply outstanding!

I was so impressed with the Freya+, I impulsed on Jotunheim 2. It arrived today!

Now I can't fit both on my desk side by side. There's simply not enough desk area. I could stack them, but need a stand just large enough to hold the Freya on top. While sliding the Jotunheim underneath.

I'd make my own stand if nothing's readily available but I'd rather buy one though at this moment.

Are there ready made stands for the Freya+ out there somewhere?


----------



## brankin

roncruiser said:


> Now I can't fit both on my desk side by side. There's simply not enough desk area. I could stack them, but need a stand just large enough to hold the Freya on top. While sliding the Jotunheim underneath.
> 
> I'd make my own stand if nothing's readily available but I'd rather buy one though at this moment.
> 
> Are there ready made stands for the Freya+ out there somewhere?


I use this Allsop Monitor Stand

I have a Freya + on top & Bifrost 2 below.


----------



## roncruiser (Jan 5, 2023)

brankin said:


> I use this Allsop Monitor Stand
> 
> I have a Freya + on top & Bifrost 2 below.


Thanks! Monitor stands!

I ended up getting this.
https://a.co/d/apJusPi

The width is just about perfect for the Freya+, and the shelf depth is 2.5" deeper than the Freya chassis.

The Jotunheim will slip right underneath!


----------



## theeclone

Smoothstereo said:


> I have tried rolling in NOS 6CG7, and with adapters: 12AU7, 12AT7/CV455, and 5670.


Any tips on where to find an adapter so I can try out some 12at7 & 12au7s in the follower stage?


----------



## KoshNaranek

buckit said:


> Picked up a Freya N on close out yesterday. Hoping to get it delivered this week. I have two National Matsushita PC88/7DJ8 tubes and wondering if I can try rolling them on the right or left side? Anyone have experience with rolling 7DJ8 tubes in the Freya N. From what I could find, the heater ma is 300. Together with the stock tube, it would get me below 2.4 max and closer to 1.8 I believe.


Those exact tubes are my present favorite for the right side. The gain side.


----------



## sahmen

theeclone said:


> Any tips on where to find an adapter so I can try out some 12at7 & 12au7s in the follower stage?


Tubemonger's *Pulse tubes store* might be your friend:


----------



## Smoothstereo

sahmen said:


> Tubemonger's *Pulse tubes store* might be your friend:


Yep, those are the ones I got for using 12AU7/12AT7 tubes. As for the 5670 adapter, I got them from Tubedepot. Not as high quality though. There might be some nicer ones somewhere else.


----------



## theeclone (Jan 6, 2023)

Smoothstereo said:


> Yep, those are the ones I got for using 12AU7/12AT7 tubes. As for the 5670 adapter, I got them from Tubedepot. Not as high quality though. There might be some nicer ones somewhere else.


Thanks guys. Ended up ordering some adapters from china off ebay last night, with matching socket savers for the gain tubes. Got some sylvania & ge matched pair 12at7s on the way to try as followers!





In the meantime I'm liking this combo of lisst for gain and stock tubes for follower!


----------



## Mike-WI

theeclone said:


> Thanks guys. Ended up ordering some adapters from china off ebay last night, with matching socket savers for the gain tubes. Got some sylvania & ge matched pair 12at7s on the way to try as followers!
> 
> 
> 
> In the meantime I'm liking this combo of lisst for gain and stock tubes for follower!


Interesting


----------



## cobrabucket

theeclone said:


> Thanks guys. Ended up ordering some adapters from china off ebay last night, with matching socket savers for the gain tubes. Got some sylvania & ge matched pair 12at7s on the way to try as followers!
> 
> 
> 
> In the meantime I'm liking this combo of lisst for gain and stock tubes for follower!


I wish they made LISST for the Freya Noval!


----------



## theeclone

cobrabucket said:


> I wish they made LISST for the Freya Noval!


Same. I have 4 of them but they weren't quite up to snuff in the follower stage. I would hope the situation is better with the octal lissts in the freya +. If they made new noval lissts with their newer preamp/headamps in mind maybe it would work better.


----------



## buckit

KoshNaranek said:


> Those exact tubes are my present favorite for the right side. The gain side.


Thanks! Will try them out on the gain side.


----------



## roncruiser

Need a gain side tube recommendation:
My new Freya + came along with matched 6SN7's.
I thoroughly enjoy listening with these tubes.

I'd like to compare the 6SN7 tubes against another set of tubes.
Tubes that provide a stark contrast to the 6SN7 but still enjoyable.
Something I can hear a clear difference.

Can you please provide tube recommendations.  

I'm new to this tube listening and rolling thing.
I've never bought tubes before.  Please recommend your favorite tube vendor.
I wouldn't even know a legit shop to go to for tubes.

Thanks!

Note:
I'm totally enjoying my music on another level.  I have to keep my spending under control.  I'm find that hard to do. Schitt!


----------



## theeclone (Saturday at 1:35 AM)

roncruiser said:


> Need a gain side tube recommendation:
> My new Freya + came along with matched 6SN7's.
> I thoroughly enjoy listening with these tubes.
> 
> ...


I'm a big fan of the sylvania 6sn7gta tubes. At least a few years ago, they were a great bang for the buck, though I haven't looked lately. Just a really sweet sounding tube with good bass. They have a black base and a chrome top, with a stop sign pattern on top. I forget the years I had but I want to say maybe from the 50s or 60s?


----------



## roncruiser

theeclone said:


> I'm a big fan of the sylvania 6sn7gta tubes. At least a few years ago, they were a great bang for the buck, though I haven't looked lately. Just a really sweet sounding tube with bood bass. They have a black base and a chrome top, with a stop sign pattern on top. I forget the years I had but I want to say maybe from the 50s or 60s?


No stock at tubedepot.  A little pricey for me, but maybe I woulda pulled the trigger if they were on hand.

What do you think of the RCA 6SN7GT?
https://tubedepot.com/products/rca-6sn7gt-gtb-black-plate


----------



## theeclone

roncruiser said:


> No stock at tubedepot.  A little pricey for me, but maybe I woulda pulled the trigger if they were on hand.
> 
> What do you think of the RCA 6SN7GT?
> https://tubedepot.com/products/rca-6sn7gt-gtb-black-plate


ebay is your friend. Just make sure it's a reputable seller and they're well matched in testing. Pairs can still be had for around $50 based on a cursory glance. Good tubes from that era, even used, blow away most newer stuff. Preamps are a bit less fussy about old tubes than power amps, as I understand it.

No experience w rca unfortunately, sorry.


----------



## roncruiser

theeclone said:


> ebay is your friend. Just make sure it's a reputable seller and they're well matched in testing. Pairs can still be had for around $50 based on a cursory glance. Good tubes from that era, even used, blow away most newer stuff. Preamps are a bit less fussy about old tubes than power amps, as I understand it.
> 
> No experience w rca unfortunately, sorry.


I think I found a pair.  It seems the Sylvania 6SN7GT tubes you recommended are considered "Bad Boys"?  (Silver top, Black base, Stop Sign on top).  Is that correct?  Other than price is there, a significant difference in sound between military issue and regular?


----------



## theeclone (Saturday at 2:58 AM)

roncruiser said:


> I think I found a pair.  It seems the Sylvania 6SN7GT tubes you recommended are considered "Bad Boys"?  (Silver top, Black base, Stop Sign on top).  Is that correct?  Other than price is there, a significant difference in sound between military issue and regular?


True bad boys in good shape are really expensive, and tons of sellers call various sylvania tubes bad boys because there is a lot of hype around them, but the gtas I've heard and liked were not bad boys.

Not sure about the military part, but if it's a gta made by sylvania and not the "low microphic" variety it probably sounds good in my experience. If I recal the low microphonic ones had a w in the model number and were heavily used by the military. In theory low microphonics is desireable but they sound too dead to me.

The one I had in my lyr 3 that I liked the most is actually branded as "delco" but was made by sylvania.

Edit: This guy









Just realized I have 2 of them. Kinda makes me wish I had a freya + to try em out in! Also found a 5th noval lisst while I was digging around, haha.


----------



## PoMarantz

theeclone said:


> ebay is your friend. Just make sure it's a reputable seller and they're well matched in testing. Pairs can still be had for around $50 based on a cursory glance. Good tubes from that era, even used, blow away most newer stuff. Preamps are a bit less fussy about old tubes than power amps, as I understand it.
> 
> No experience w rca unfortunately, sorry.


I would be careful on eBay. I had a good experience with one tube "dealer" and then  I purchased from VascoTube, who "seems" to be a "reputable" dealer in tubes (3000 sales), and my experience was not good. I EVENTUALLY ended up with 2 tubes that work, but I know that they are not "matched" (as promised) and the one tube has issues. I guess that goes with the turf of NOS tubes…and with the absurd prices it can be a crap-shoot trying to find a bargain or even a discount…so be careful.


----------



## roncruiser (Saturday at 2:04 PM)

I don't mind spending a bit more on my very first pair of tubes.

This looks legit:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/225325198745
One of the tubes is missing the vertically printed date.  They look like Bad Boys based on the information I've read but I'm not exactly sure since I do not have any experience at all with tube ID.

I need some help from some of the more experienced.... someone with experience please confirm the photos that they indeed look like "Bad Boys".

I've contacted the seller about the missing date.  No response yet.


----------



## jonathan c

roncruiser said:


> I don't mind spending a bit more on my very first pair of tubes.
> 
> This looks legit:
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/225325198745
> ...


The seller is one from whom I have purchased a number of times: Recommended!


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## PoMarantz (Saturday at 2:07 PM)

jonathan c said:


> The seller is one from whom I have purchased a number of times: Recommended!


Mine are billed as:
6SN7 GT SYLVANIA 6SN7 GT TALL 2 HOLES Bad Boys PLATINUM MATCHED PAIR
I only paid $100 for the pair.
Mine have only 2holes as the description says. Very similar looking to yours in general, though. One of mine has Sylvania writing and the other has none. Nothing. The writing is very different than yours.
I had problems with Vascotube. The first set, one of the tubes played for about 5 minutes and then that channel went into woofer fibrillation that scared the crap out of me. I thought the driver might have been ruined. I read up…and a dead tube will treat your speaker that way, apparently. I told the seller…he said "send them back"…(there was a language barrier there somewhat, too)…he then told me that they tested fine and sent them back to me…I confirmed by having to suffer thru more woofer work-out!!! 😬 I told him that the tube was dead! ( I think he was just trying to get rid of me!) …I sent them back and now have this pair. They visually look identical…but on the one the writing is completely worn off. i suspect it is NOT a matched pair…but I was done interacting with VASCOTUBE.
I guess that you get what you pay for. 😀.  They seem to play OK… Occasionally, the channel with the old tube will have very very soft background noise after a session……If I re-seat the tube it goes away. So…who knows.
i wonder what the "sonic" difference is supposed to be between the 2-hole and 3-hole "bad boy" models???
I actually have Four GE NOS tubes that sound better to my ear…but how they sound is a whole other discussion! If I remember that I am supposed to be having fun…it’s ALL GOOD! 😀


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## DougD

roncruiser said:


> I don't mind spending a bit more on my very first pair of tubes.
> 
> This looks legit: << snip snip >>
> 
> They look like Bad Boys based on the information I've read but I'm not exactly sure since I do not have any experience at all with tube ID.


As a general rule of thumb, I think you should assume that if any E-bay seller of tubes, with a significant history, doesn't describe the tubes he/she is selling as Bad Boys or some other highly sought after variety ... they're what is described, not what you hope they could be. 

I write that without having clicked the link to see who the seller is, or to look at the tube px. 

Still could be very good tubes.


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## roncruiser

jonathan c said:


> The seller is one from whom I have purchased a number of times: Recommended!


Thanks!  I feel more confident.


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## roncruiser

DougD said:


> As a general rule of thumb, I think you should assume that if any E-bay seller of tubes, with a significant history, doesn't describe the tubes he/she is selling as Bad Boys or some other highly sought after variety ... they're what is described, not what you hope they could be.
> 
> I write that without having clicked the link to see who the seller is, or to look at the tube px.
> 
> Still could be very good tubes.


Thank you too.  

I understand the risks involved.  Then again, I don't know what I don't know.
The world of buying tubes is intriguing.  I know I'm going to make some mistakes.  Just hope the 
ones I make are not too big.


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## theeclone

Got a NOS pair of these in the gain section of the freya n currently. Still using the stock tubes as followers. Only a few hours in and they already sound incredibly lush. The bass is pleasing enough if a little woolley but I suspect it will get better with burn in. I love sylvania tubes 🙂


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## slumberman

Hello all!

Are any of the Freya models compatible with these tubes? I figured if I get one might as well use what I already have, if it’s worth it.


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## tincanear (Tuesday at 7:41 PM)

slumberman said:


> Hello all!
> 
> Are any of the Freya models compatible with these tubes? I figured if I get one might as well use what I already have, if it’s worth it.


Most of those look to be smaller noval 9-pin tubes.  Some like 6GH8/ 6GH8A (triode/pentode combo) won’t work at all.  Freya needs dual triodes.  Others might work, but would need adapters to match 6N1P pinout (not sure about electrical parameters such as mu, plate resistance, etc)


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## paradoxper

Borat said:


> I took delivery of a closeout Freya N the other day. I've listened to it for about 6 hours in tube buffer mode and about 30 minutes in passive mode with no issues so far.
> 
> I hope those that are having issues will get taken care of by Schiit.
> 
> ...


EC HD300 is a real throwback!


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## stuh2o

AstronomerXI said:


> I’d just ask that it be replaced. I suspect there’s a fault somewhere on the board or power supply.


Just an update my freya troubles, they just offered a new replacement. Good stuff. 
Although I had a problems schiit  took care of it. I’ll be happy to have it back.

Stu


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## ejk1

I received my replacement yesterday. I don't know if it's me, but it sounds like the right channel is a bit louder than the left. I thought I read somewhere that there was a channel imbalance problem. Please correct me if I am wrong.


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## ejk1

ejk1 said:


> I received my replacement yesterday. I don't know if it's me, but it sounds like the right channel is a bit louder than the left. I thought I read somewhere that there was a channel imbalance problem. Please correct me if I am wrong.



Might just be me or the music I was listening too. Listening to different music and the image is more centered


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## ejk1

One other thing is in tube gain mode I have the volume knob set between 1 and 2 o'clock and with my sound level meter it is only reading around 73 db. The sound doesn't start coming through till I'm close to 12 on the volume knob


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## tincanear

Per Jason, 
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/sch...bable-start-up.701900/page-3171#post-15008530

Also, volume level for a given dial setting should be ~12dB higher in active tube mode vs either the Passive or SS compound differentisl buffer gain modes. 

Differential buffer mode may be higher than passive if using SE (rca) source and balanced (xlr) outputs


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## PoMarantz (Yesterday at 3:00 PM)

ejk1 said:


> One other thing is in tube gain mode I have the volume knob set between 1 and 2 o'clock and with my sound level meter it is only reading around 73 db. The sound doesn't start coming through till I'm close to 12 on the volume knob


Same here…but I do have plenty of range for volume…it could start registering a little sooner, yes…but I have all the volume that I need. I am fine with it as I know matching a preamp to an amp (gain), can be a challenge with certain gear. We may be experiencing that dus to perhaps the design of the preamp is to accommodate a wide range of gear…not an expert, tho.


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## ejk1

PoMarantz said:


> Same here…but I do have plenty of range for volume…it could start registering a little sooner, yes…but I have all the volume that I need. I am fine with it as I know matching a preamp to an amp (gain), can be a challenge with certain gear. We may be experiencing that do to perhaps the design of the preamp is to accommodate a wide range of gear…not an expert, tho.


Yes, I agree the range is still good.


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## Borat

One of the strengths of adding the Freya N to my system has been how much more play on the volume knob I get now versus when I just used my integrated amp (Denon PMA-2000IVR). With the Denon I could barely go past 8 o'clock before it was too loud for me, and it ramped up so quickly that even a slight movement up or down was often either too loud or too soft. And that was with me using the knob. Using the remote was even worse. One click up or down and the knob would move so far. The relay volume control on the Freya has been such an improvement for my system.

Question: 

I watched on a video review on YouTube for the Freya N that you are supposed to put the pair of tubes with lower heater current on the left side. 

Is that true? Why?


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## roncruiser (Yesterday at 8:14 PM)

I was able to get my hands on a couple "Bad Boy's".  To my novice eyes, I'm confident they look like Bad Boys. That doesn't mean I'm right.
I can't evaluate the sound yet.  I'm in the process of selling my current DAC/Headphone Amp FiiO Q7, and the newly purchased Bifrost is on the way.
Left side are the stock matched 6SN7's the Freya+ shipped with.
Right side are the Sylvania JAN CHS 6SN7GT Matched Pair "Bad Boy's" 1952:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/225325198745


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## ejk1

ejk1 said:


> I received my replacement yesterday. I don't know if it's me, but it sounds like the right channel is a bit louder than the left. I thought I read somewhere that there was a channel imbalance problem. Please correct me if I am wrong.


I'm finding the right channel slightly louder than the left anyone have any Ideas


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## tincanear (Today at 3:43 AM)

ejk1 said:


> I'm finding the right channel slightly louder than the left anyone have any Ideas


Does this channel imbalance still happen in passive and fet differential buffer modes?

If channel imbalance happens with the other (non-tube) gain modes, then check digital source settings/ try swapping the xlr cables between pre and power amp

If non-tube modes are Ok, then power down, let em cool, and interchange just the right-most pair of the 4 tubes


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## PoMarantz

roncruiser said:


> I was able to get my hands on a couple "Bad Boy's".  To my novice eyes, I'm confident they look like Bad Boys. That doesn't mean I'm right.
> I can't evaluate the sound yet.  I'm in the process of selling my current DAC/Headphone Amp FiiO Q7, and the newly purchased Bifrost is on the way.
> Left side are the stock matched 6SN7's the Freya+ shipped with.
> Right side are the Sylvania JAN CHS 6SN7GT Matched Pair "Bad Boy's" 1952:
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/225325198745


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## PoMarantz

Those Bad Boys look quite nice…but damn that's expensive.
I am thinking of soldering in 4 new capacitors into my unit… ~$250…wonder which would have more affect on the sound?


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## qwin49 (Today at 10:21 AM)

After trying a few NOS tubes, I ended up with GE GTA in the output Buffers and Ken-Rad VT231 (1943) in the Gain positions.
Very nice, but switching to V-Cap ODAM's on the outputs made more of an improvement in my set up. YMMV.
It doesn't take many NOS tubes to run up a bill greater than the cost of the Cap upgrade.


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## roncruiser

qwin49 said:


> After trying a few NOS tubes, I ended up with GE GTA in the output Buffers and Ken-Rad VT231 (1943) in the Gain positions.
> Very nice, but switching to V-Cap ODAM's on the outputs made more of an improvement in my set up. YMMV.
> It doesn't take many NOS tubes to run up a bill greater than the cost of the Cap upgrade.


I'm curious. Where on the output did you add the caps?


PoMarantz said:


> Those Bad Boys look quite nice…but damn that's expensive.
> I am thinking of soldering in 4 new capacitors into my unit… ~$250…wonder which would have more affect on the sound?


Yes. Pricey tubes.

I'm all ears adding the caps.
Which caps would you use?


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