# UPDATED 2/22 REVIEW 13 USB DAC amp - Predator, Pico, 2/3MOVE, D10 D3 D2 Viper/Boa D1, Lyrix, MicroAmp, Vivid V1, Nuforce, XM5



## HeadphoneAddict

*Review continued in post #2 because of the 100,000 character limit per post. 

 In the final ranking, the 8 amps in 1st -5th place are close enough to be a tie, and my ranking is based on personal preference and features, not only sound.*

*3/14/08 - Initial Review Four USB DAC Amps: Tonight I compared SEVERAL USB DAC amps that I own.* SEE UPDATES BELOW FOR ADDITIONAL AMPS - including the 2MOVE and HR Micro Stack, the D2 Boa, the Vivid Technology V1, iBasso D3 Python, Nuforce Icon Mobile, Practical Devices XM5, iBasso D10 and D4 in Post #2.

 (1) RSA Predator #24 with 1100+ hours, reviewed by Skylab last month
 (2) Pico #11 formerly owned by Asr and broken in
 (3) iBasso D2 with 183 hours
 (4) Headstage Lyrix with 400+ hours







*PHONES*: I reviewed them using my ALO modded Vampire wire HFI-780's which have 450 hours on them - these have excellent frequency response and transparency, and are ruthless in exposing a bad source or amp, and fantastic at exploiting a good source or amp. 

*SOURCE*: Listening was via USB on a Macbook with Apple lossless files as the source. At any one time, two of the four amps were connected via USB, and I would switch ports via the sound control panel, then quickly swap the headphone plug out. All amps were on low gain - and I tried to match volumes by ear - the Lyrix and D2 volume knobs were at 1:30 o'clock, the Pico was at 1 o'clock, and the Predator was at 3:30 (but it is the only one with three gain levels). 

*MUSIC*: Apple lossless files - Tsuyoshi Yamamoto "Autumn in Seattle", FIM "This is K2 HD CD" and "Jazz at the Pawnshop", Diana Krall "Girl in the Other Room" Dual-Disc.

*FINDINGS*: They are all very good, but have differences. You would not be dissatisfied with any of them, but you can tell which are the $500 amps and which are the $200 amps. If the money is there, I would give it up for the more expensive ones; not because of the cost, but because of the open windows into the music they provide.

*FIRST*: The Predator is still my current favorite for sounding like a full size amp (so far), but I have more sources and phones to try all the amps with. The bass is deep without being boomy, and the mids and highs are warm and smooth, with good transparency. It does have a just a little bit less treble extension than the Pico, which is fine with the ALO modded HFI780's and most headphones. I have tried high gain before, and it drives HD600 with no strain at all. 

 The Predator strikes me as being different, in the same way that a wood Grado has a different timbre than a plastic or metal Grado - with the Predator being wood with warm natural timbre and the Pico being the "not-wood" or more neutral one.

*SECOND*: As a very close second is the Pico S/N #11 which was the one used in Asr's loaner tests (many hours on it) and it just arrived today. It was nice, but with maybe/possibly a little tipped up extreme ends of the bass and treble, adding a slight brightness but not sibilance. Otherwise it is pretty neutral and powerful, but slightly colder than the Predator. Both are equally detailed, however the PICO soundstage is a tad larger or slightly more open sounding. 

 I would bet that some of my headphones might appreciate the neutrality a little more, and I will explore that. However, I can see why many people are using these as a volume controlled DAC, because it doesn't seem to have much of a flavor of it's own. I will try it as a DAC to my tube amplifier, and report back later.

*THIRD*: [SEE UPDATE BELOW, AFTER BURN-IN AND NEW OPAMPS D2 VIPER MOVED TO SECOND] In 3rd is the iBasso D2. It has a very similar sound signature and frequency response as the Pico - but maybe tiny bit boomy in the bass, a tiny bit less volume in the mids and a little bit brighter in the treble (more U-shaped). It was not quite as smooth in the treble or as transparent as the PICO (D2 has 183 hours on it). 

 The bass has gone up and down over the past 48 hours, and for a while it was too much, but it is leveling out now but still slightly more than needed. I expect it to continue to refine itself with more hours under the belt.

*FOURTH*: Then there is the Headstage Lyrix Total Pro USB. Fourth place doesn't mean last place, since it is still a very good amp. It sounds very similar to the D2 in frequency response, but with a little less transparency than the D2. Switching between the Pico on one USB port and Lyrix on the other USB, then the decrease in transparency even more apparent. It is still a very detailed and clean amp, but with less air around the instruments vs the other amps when driven by it's limited PCM2704 DAC. The bass was not boomy unless the bass boost was switched on, but it was slightly less than the D2 when off. In no way was the bass inadequate, rather the D2 is just a smidge much (is that a word?).

 This amp has loads of features, like 9v re-chargable or Alkaline compatable, with charge circuit off-switch, bass boost, crossfeed. BUT, it is also twice as big as the other three (sorry no pic, it got left out in my wife's car when she took my daughter to girl scouts). It has been relegated to being the desktop amp for the iMac in our kitchen because it is still too good to sell.

*WHAT'S MISSING*: You may ask, where is the iBasso D1? Well... Blutarsky had sold off all his portable amps, and I loaned him my D1 two weeks ago to try with his ALO vampire wire 780's. I had recently rolled the opamps to AD743/LMH6643/LTC6241 which synergized very well with them. Somehow, last weekend I left his house owning all of his headphones except his Darths and my HP-1000 and D1, which stayed with him. From memory I am going to say it sounded similar to the PICO, when I was using it with the Mac Audio Midi set in 24bit/48Khz mode via optical out. Not quite as warm as a Predator, but powerful clear and neutral like the PICO.






*PLANNED FOR THE FUTURE*: I plan to try all 4 amps with several headphones this weekend, and will also try their analog inputs with my iMod and ALOaudio Jumbo Cryo Silver X LOD. Cheers, and happy listening!

 ...and sorry about your wallet! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






*UPDATE #1:* I should mention that the RSA Predator takes a huge amount of time to burn-in. It wasn't so great sounding right out of the box, I mean it was good but not spectacular. By 300 hours it had gradually changed till it sounded nothing like it did fresh out of the box, and a veil was starting to lift. By 600 hours it was a whole new amp again, with real meat to the bass - and again this was via gradual slow changes (and not bouncing around like the D2 did). By 1,000 hours it seemed to me to be fully matured, with no changes between 1,000 and 1,100 hours. At that point, the Predator was shipped off to Skylab for his review in February.

*UPDATE #2, 3/15/08 1:00AM*: The D1 as I mentioned most recently had the AD743/LMH6643/LTC6241HV opamps in it. Previously it was warmer with more bass, and closer to the Predator, when it had the AD797/AD8397/AD6241HV in the LR/BUFFER/DAC opamps in place. That was before I rolled the opamps for the HFI-780. I suspect I'll be able to similarly tune the D2 and Lyrix which have socket opamps as well. I am not in a rush to do so yet.

*UPDATE #3, 3/20/08 11:45PM - D2 VIPER STOCK MAKES POSITIVE GAINS AFTER 300 HOURS.* 

 I have 311 hours on the D2, and I am now using my Woodied HF-1 with APS V3 cable at the moment, and all amps were driven by the USB DAC as before. So, I am revisiting it as promised with an extra 125 hours or so on it. I listened a lot on Monday and Tuesday with my Grados and Edition 9, and then took a 48 hour break while it burned in the final bit to reach 310 hours.

 While the D2 initially had a very similar sound signature to the Pico, my 183 hour impression of the D2 was that the bass was a bit boomy and uncontrolled, and it seemed a little brighter than the Pico. Now the bass has indeed tightened up since the last time I listened on the 18th when I compared the amps with more headphones. Not only is the D2 bass now less boomy and more controlled, but the high's are a little smoother too (but maybe still a tad brighter).

*With the extra hours on it, the D2 is clearly closer to the Pico than it is the Lyrix now*, as the Lyrix DAC is seeming to hold it back now. But, there is that final bit of transparency and smoothness that the Pico holds over D2 still. I would say the top three amps are within a few percentage points of each other, when listening with the HF-1 APS re-cabled woodies. There is just something about warm full bodied sound of the Predator that keeps me coming back for more. 

 So, I give the *Predator a 10/10*. I'll give the *Pico a 9.7/10* for opening the soundstage a bit and crisp detail, but with a cooler more analytical sound. The D2 has moved up from a 9.0 to a *9.4/10 for the D2 now*, while still missing some of the warmth of the Predator and the final bit of transparency of the Pico. I have to give the *Lyrix a 8.8/10* now. To me anything above an 8/10 is great but might not be a keeper if I have more than one amp sitting above 9/10.

 I would put the D1 (with the newest round of opamps) right up there with the D2 now (sound is quite close), except that I got it back after 2 weeks with a channel imbalance, so I have to open it up and swap opamps and determine if the problem is my fault, or I have to contact iBasso. The right channel is louder using the DAC by a good 3db or more, but with the analog input the L/R channels are balanced. It currently has the AD743x2 in it for main, LMH6643 buffers, and LTC6241HV in the DAC.

*UPDATE #4, 3/26/08 2:00AM - 2MOVE and MODIFIED D2 WITH NEW OPAMPS*

 I just spent the last 9-10 hours with all the amps, and a well burned in 2MOVE from Skylab. I first listened them all with the ALO modded HFI-780, but my current sinus infection must be boosting the vampire wire 780's bass a bit too much vs 7-10 days ago. So, I switched to my APS re-cabled RS-1 for more detail and layering, and more balanced bass, and listened to everything again. Having just gotten the APS re-cabled RS-1 and also re-cabled my Edition 9, it is an eye opener into hearing that the ALO modded HFI-780 are darker and bassier and less open at quiet volumes than I remember with the first part of the review (they do open up at higher volumes but louder make my sinus headache worse). Right now I am preferring the RS-1 and Edition 9 vs my 780's with 666 hours on them (don't laugh, that's how many hours they have 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ). 

 All Amps were reviewed as before, using only their USB DAC as source, via Macbook. The D2 was also tested with new opamps, with a LM6172 replacing the LT1364, and a THS4032 replacing the NE5532.

 I used the same music as in the first test, but had to add a few more items: "Handel Messiah" conductor Christopher Hogwood, William Orbit "The Best of Strange Cargo", James Asher "Shaman Drums", Guinea Pig "Cool Cats", Jack Johnson. I also threw in various pop artists from my kid's music in 128kbps to test with poor sources.

 The 2MOVE sounded closer to the Predator than the PICO, but with a little more treble extension and what I would call a slight midbass hump that I did not hear in the Predator other amps. The 2MOVE was what I would call warm and mellow - but not dark as it had a little bit more treble up top, in between the Predqtor and PICO (like the D2). The Predator seems to have a little better bass presence, especially helpful with the RS-1 which I feel are usually a little bass shy with bowls. The Predator's high end was also more suited to the RS-1 and HFI-780's which already have a strong treble presence. Bass and treble were not overpowering with any of the amps with the RS-1.

 The 2MOVE was more forward and up front than the Predator or Pico, which didn't help the soundstage with Handel's Messiah when listening via the RS-1. The 2MOVE still has excellent ambience and detail of the large venue, but you are definitely closer to the choir. The Predator's bigger soundstage was itself beaten by the Pico by a small margin, which produced a more 3D Cathedral space. With one small studio recording (Tsuyoshi Yamamoto on FIM XRCD), I can almost hear the drums and cymbals echo off the walls with the 2MOVE, but that coloration does not appear to be there with any of the other amps.

 The 2MOVE with piano and saxophone was sweet and seductive, like the Predator, where you could hear the warmth and the reedyness both at the same time. Where the 2MOVE also excelled was in acoustic music like Jack Johnson, like in "Badfish" on Look at the Love We Found, or "Times Like These" from the "On and On" album.

 ALL the amps did electronic music well, like William Orbit, Chris Spheeris, James Asher. And ALL the amps are particularly ruthless with poor quality Mp3, revealing the poor dynamics and compression artifacts. With ALL of the amps I heard a grating quality with my kids' 128kbps pop/hip hop like Plain White T's. The Fray, Cartel, Avril Lavigne, Boys like Girls, Chris Brown, Wyclef Jean, Rihanna, Fergie, etc, which rubbed me the wrong way. 

 Back to the good stuff. What surprised me was listening to Diana Krall - the PICO just sounds more natural and transparent with songs from "Girl in the Other Room". This album gets included every time I do a review because it is mastered with some sibilance or harsh highs still remaining, so it makes a good test album to see how the amps or headphones handle it. While the Pico handles this the best, just above the Predator, I thought the 2MOVE was the most irritating of the amps with this partitcular album, and this hurt it's score. However, with the low-bitrate kid's music above, it was no more irritating than any of the other amps.

 Now we get to the D2 with rolled opamps, using the LM6172 and THS4032 opamps, which would be about $25-30. The opamp change definitely changes the character if the amp, and it is less "Pico-Like" and more 2MOVE-like, except that it handles the one Diana Krall CD a little better/smoother, and it is slightly less forward, and the midbass hump is less. So, I guess that makes it more predator-like then? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The D2 does Saxophones VERY well now vs stock. It is like magic, wave the wand, and the D2 is transmorgrified into something else.

 Having picked out the areas where one amp excels over the others, or falls behind the others, it makes it even harder to rank the top 4 amps. The Predator, 2MOVE and modified D2 sound the closest to each other's sound signature or flavor. While the Pico and stock D2 sound the closest to each other's sound signature. _A similar sound signature is a "reminds me of" NOT a "sounds just like"._ That puts the amps in 2 camps, yet makes all the rankings fall between a 9.4/10 and a 10/10, and in my opinion too close to call based on sound alone.

 The D2 with rolled opamps I feel is a little better than the 2MOVE, while the 2MOVE is better than the stock D2. *So, my initial ranking has a tie for 3rd, and a tie for 4th...*

 1. RSA Predator (good bass and soundstage, more body, organic, full)
 2. D2 with rolled opamps (LM6172/THS4032 - balanced, not too forward, sweet/magical Saxophone, almost mesmerizing like Predator)
 3. 2MOVE (sweet mids and saxophone, midbass hmmm, failed the bad mastering diana krall test, great detail and air, too large and heavy)
 3. PICO (smooth and transparent without coloration, Great DAC, won the bad mastering Diana Krall test, but nothing special with piano and sax like the others, too neutral as an amp - how is that possible, maybe not because there is something around 2Khz that is not right with RS-1)
 4. D1 with rolled opamps (AD743 main/LMH6643 buffer/LTC6241HV DAC - powerful, punchy, energetic, alive)
 4. D2 stock (thin in the middle, neutral with good bass,)
 5. Lyrix (good frequency balance, lacking details and air vs the others)
 6. D1 stock opamps (put AD823/NE5532/AD8616 back in right before I shipped it back for the 2-3db channel imbalance, too edgy and bright and distant)

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Raw notes jotted down while listening:* 
_
 Predator - ALO 780 = less treble extension, best bass
 Predator - RS-1
 Handel mellow, good soundstage
 Yamamoto piano good
 Diana Krall voice smoother than 2move
 Jazz at Pawn - smooth, natural live
 William Orbit - punchy

 2MOVE - ALO 780 like Predator with more treble, mid bass hump
 2MOVE RS-1
 Handel mellow forward
 Yamamoto good piano
 Diana Krall good bass, voice grating
 Jazz at Pawn sax sweet
 William Orbit - punchy

 PICO - ALO 780 clean bass, transparent
 PICO RS-1
 Handel more 3D soundstage, clear airy
 Yamamoto bright piano, wrong
 Diana Krall best voice
 Jazz at Pawn - saxaphone thin
 William Orbit - punchy

 D2 modded - ALO 780 like MOVE but not as bright & less midbass hump
 D2 modded RS-1
 Handel open slt more highs, violins closer than singer?
 Yamamoto less bright vs pico 
 Diana Krall not bad at all
 Jazz at Pawn - sax sweet/magical
 William Orbit - punchy_

 

*UPDATE - 05/06/08 11:50PM: 7 USB DAC AMPS - ADDED HR Micro Stack Portable*

*(1) The Headroom Micro DAC and Micro AMP, 2006 version, AKA HR Micro Stack portable:*

 The HR Micro Stack came into my possession the first week of March, and I initially considered including it in this review, but I wanted to focus on the newer smaller combination portable USB DAC/amps first. Headroom now has a 2007 Micro portable DAC/Amp for $598; but the DAC chip is different, and they admit that the new Analog Devices DAC is a slight downgrade from the 2006 portable with Cirrus Logic CS4398 chip (they claim the 2007 desktop Micros with the CS4398 are still as good or better, but without 9v battery power).

 This is a fairly large (for portable) two-piece set, with a separate DAC and matching Amp section. When strapped together with the optional Micro-Strap they act as one large unit and take up a 3W"x4D"x3H" piece of desktop. That is bigger than the iBasso D1, so it certainly wont fit in your pocket (not even a coat pocket), and is really what I would call transportable. Even worse, this means you get two medium-to-large sized power bricks, with proprietary connectors on the amp and DAC side, and no internal charging circuit. You have to buy a separate battery charger, and the one I have can only do two 9v at a time. Yikes. I haven't tested battery life, but I have read tales of the amp chewing through a pair of 9v re-chargables in 8 hours, and the DAC lasting maybe twice that. I will try to test out the 9.6v re-chargables that HeadRoom sells soon. See a recent previous post for battery life of the other amps reviewed.

 I now have about 400 hours on the Micro Stack, about half from just regular use of music and not running it 24/7 after the first 180 hours. And I just feel that I need to add this to my review, and to let people know what to expect if they buy a used one down the line. There are a fair number of these out there, and they don't go up for sale used very often, and there is a good reason for that - they sound good. 

 I did my comparison against the Pico, and planned to pull out one of the other amps should the Headroom fall above or below the Pico, but I made a lucky guess and found them to be fairly equivalent. I used all the same program material, and listened with my RS-1 and D2000 (my HFI-780 were with mrarroyo at the time).

 The HR Micro Stack via USB reproduces vocals and real acoustic instruments well, with no colorations and drop outs. Diana Krall was smooth, without sibilance, but female vocals and saxophones were just ever-so-slightly cooler than I like. Pianos were sharp with quick attack and smooth decay, and were not piercing. The sound does not seem boosted or sucked out in any areas. 

 There is a nice sense of ambience and space around the instruments, without making the venue sound cavernous (or microscopic). Rather, it is just right. With classical music I dare say it can recreate the large hall ambience slightly better than the Predator, and it reproduced the Cathedral-sized venue for Handel's Messiah as well as the Pico did. With smaller nightclub venues, and studio recordings, the ambience and dynamic range was good as well. I did not hear the sound of the instruments or the echos disappear too fast like with the Lyrix USB DAC (or Travagans Green). 

 Switching to optical digital, I can hear slightly better air and ambience with Headroom's optical input and my Macbook. I should note that while optical is a little more transparent, the USB performance is still pretty darn close to optical. Even when playing native 24/96 program material from Linnrecords.com Hi-res downloads, and setting the Macbook optical output to 24/96, the differences in sound between the HR optical input and the USB input of both the HR and Pico were fairly small (maybe a 5% improvement).

 So, what about all my previous postings about the Micro Stack being a warmer and more musical setup, if it really sounds like a Pico? Well, I use the Micro Stack with crossfeed switched on 90% of the time. And the HR Micro Amp's sound warms up when you hit the crossfeed, even more than the Lyrix does with crossfeed. Whether it is better that way depends on the listener, the source, the program material and the headphones. *With crossfeed off, there is very little difference in sound between the Headroom Micro Stack via USB and the Pico via USB.* However, the HR Micro Stack is just a bit richer in the mids than the Pico when crossfeed is on, but also sounds slightly rolled off in the highs with crossfeed (more rolled off than the Predator). To my ears, the Lyrix and HeadFive tend to lose a little of their air and ambience when crossfeed is on; but the HR with crossfeed still seems to retain decent space and ambience, despite the slight rolled off highs.

 Basically, via USB the $598 HR Micro Stack's performance and sound signature were similar enough to the $499 Pico to call it a draw. But, the optical S/PDIF digital input adds a small additional layer of ambience and transparency to the sound. The trade-offs for the gains with optical are bigger size, inconvenience of recharging batteries externally, out of production and higher cost. This is great for my iRiver and Sony portable CD Player with optical at the bedside. But if you are putting together a computer only rig and just wont use the S/PDIF inputs, then there are better choices reviewed here that will give you great sound in a smaller and more convenient package. If you need the crossfeed on a computer-only rig, get the 2MOVE - although it's affect was more subtle than Headroom or Headfive, it did not seem to affect the sound signature much, or cause a roll-off in the highs.

*(2) Some notes about the Lyrix Pro USB Total, Lyrix Pro (and it's little brother the Caffeine Pro):*

 I've had several inquiries about the Lyrix, whether it is the DAC or the Amp that holds it back. I believe it is the DAC that holds it back, even though the DAC sounds better than headphone out of a 5.5G iPod or Macbook (which not surprisingly sound similar to each other and could use improving). It also confirmed for me how important burn-in is with these small amps, as I got to compare a new vs 500 hours side-by-side.

 Let me preface by saying the Lyrix Total Pro needed about 70 hours burn-in to open up and smooth out, then about 200 hours burn-in to get to 95% of it's potential, and after 300 hours there were few if any changes to the refined smooth accurate sound they produce. Interestingly, I couldn't hear much change when flipping on the crossfeed when new out of the box, or even in the first 70 hours. By the time I had 200 hours on it, the effect was more audible. Other people have reported the same findings with the Lyrix crossfeed vs burn-in.

 When I got an extra Lyrix Pro for my son a couple of weeks ago, my Caffeine Pro (basically the same amp) and Lyrix Pro USB Total had over 500 hours each. In comparing the new one I could hear the constriction in soundstage, less warmth in the lower mids, and a slight coarseness in the highs. Now, at 150+ hours it is pretty hard to tell the differences between Lyrix Pro and the Caffeine Pro, while there is still a slightly more refined quality to the sound of the Lyrix Total. The warmth in the lower mids doesn't seem to develop in the Lyrix till after 150+ hours of burn-in, and while it is still a little behind that of the Predator, Pico, 2MOVE or Headroom, the amp section by itself is close to the HeadSix and still ahead of the stock iBasso D1 or D2.

*(3) Because of all the questions about whether the main differences in my review are from the DAC or the Amp section, after I got my D1 back from iBasso I briefly listened to most of them with analog input from an iMod, instead of via USB DAC.* (except the 2MOVE which I don't have)

 People keep forgetting how close they are already, as I've said many times, and I love them all. There isn't a big difference between an amp rated 9.4/10 and a 10/10 (which is where most of them sit). So, as expected the sound quality of most of the amps via analog input is just as close as when using their internal DAC (the exception is the Lyrix amp-only is now better than a stock D1 or D2). 

 Although their basic sound signatures remain mostly unchanged, using the same source (the iMod's DAC) slightly lessens the differences into just their own essence or flavor, what we call sound signature. The differences in sound quality would still be in the single digit percentage points, and subject to personal preferences (except the stock D1 with analog input is not terribly impressive - it really needs the DAC or new opamps to wow you).

*Newest Ranking 05/06/08:*

 1. RSA Predator (good bass and soundstage, more body, organic, full)
 2. D2 with rolled opamps (LM6172/THS4032 - balanced, not too forward, sweet/magical Saxophone, almost mesmerizing like Predator)
 3. 2MOVE (sweet mids and saxophone, midbass hmmm, failed the bad mastering diana krall test, great detail and air, too large and heavy)
 3. PICO (smooth and transparent without coloration, Great DAC, won the bad mastering Diana Krall test, but nothing special with piano and sax like the others, too neutral as an amp - how is that possible, maybe not because there is something around 2Khz that is not right with RS-1)
 3. Headroom 2006 Micro Stack Portable (a twin to the Pico's sound but better with piano, too BIG and out of production, with crossfeed mids are richer/warmer but highs rolled off)
 4. D1 with rolled opamps (AD743 main/LMH6643 buffer/LTC6241HV DAC - powerful, punchy, energetic, alive)
 4. D2 stock (thin in the middle, neutral with good bass,)
 5. Lyrix (good frequency balance, DAC lacking details and air vs the others, but the amp is great)
 6. D1 stock opamps (put AD823/NE5532/AD8616 back in right before I shipped it back for the 2-3db channel imbalance, too edgy and bright and distant)

*Newest Ranking 05/12/08:*

Today I had to change opamps in the D1 in order to ship to someone, and I needed to rob 4 screws from the D2 temporarily (a long story), so while the D2 was open I returned the D2 back to stock just for a quick listen. So, I compared the D1 with AD797 main, LMH6643 buffers, and LT6234 in the DAC vs the stock D2 with LT1364 + NE5532. 

 The D1 with the above opamps is clearly better via USB than the stock D2, so I changed the rank from the stock D2 tied with the modded D1 for 4th, and moved the stock D2 to 5th place. The D1 with the above opamps is so good that it almost ties the Pico and HR Micro Stack for 3rd, but not quite (however via optical it might move up).

*1. RSA Predator* (good bass and soundstage, more body, organic, full)
*2. D2 with rolled opamps* (LM6172/THS4032 - balanced, not too forward, sweet/magical Saxophone, almost mesmerizing like Predator. 7/5/08: With my IEM I found it sounded best with the LM6172 and THS4032 swapped and the LM6172 in the ground channel. With the LM6172 in ground, the THS4032, AD8397, ISL55002, and LM1364 all sounded good in the main socket, although the LT1364 is slightly rolled off in the highs this way. This second option was good with all my full size except RS-1 seem a bit bright.)
*3. 2MOVE* (sweet mids and saxophone, midbass hmmm, failed the bad mastering diana krall test, great detail and air, too large and heavy)
*3. PICO* (smooth and transparent without coloration, Great DAC, won the bad mastering Diana Krall test, but nothing special with piano and sax like the others, too neutral as an amp - how is that possible, maybe not because there is something around 2Khz that is not right with RS-1)
*3. Headroom 2006 Micro Stack Portable* (a twin to the Pico's sound but better with piano, too BIG and out of production, with crossfeed mids are richer/warmer but highs rolled off)
*4. D1 with rolled opamps* (AD797 main/LM6643 buffer/LT6234 DAC - powerful, punchy, energetic, alive - not as bright as AD743/6643/6241)
*5. D2 stock* (thin in the middle, neutral with good bass,)
*6. Lyrix* (good frequency balance, DAC lacking details and air vs the others, but the amp is great)
*7. D1 stock opamps* (put AD823/NE5532/AD8616 back in right before I shipped it back for the 2-3db channel imbalance, too edgy and bright and distant. Very close to 6th as a DAC/Amp because the DAC is so good it makes up for the frequency response issues. Clearly 7th if only using analog input. NOTE - my V1 opamps were from the initial run, and iBasso updated the opamps to V2 in November 07 to make it better than Lyrix.)


*Newest Ranking 07/31/08: Added iBasso D2 Boa. Comments below in Red were added 8/11/08.*

I received a D2 Boa from iBasso and gave it 300 hours of burn-in like the Viper needed, and then I have used it another 20 hours for music over the past week listening to music. I listened with my Proline 2500, D2000, RS-1, Edition 9, Livewires, Freq Show, Klipsch Image and Sleek SA6. I compared it to most of the amps from before, except I do not have the loaner 2MOVE, or my iBasso D1 or Lyrix Total Pro any more. However, my Lyrix Pro with USB DAC Cable sounds the same as the Lyrix Total Pro, so I can use that for comparison if something is close in rank to it. The Boa was high enough in the ranking that I didn't need to bring out the Lyrix. 

 The Boa is a pleasant amp to listen to. As far as timbre and tone and frequency balance it is certainly better sounding than the stock D2 Viper to my ears. It does not sound as hollow in the mids as the stock Viper, so the Proline 2500 for example sound better with the Boa than with the Pico or stock Viper. 

 Listening to the saxophone in Tsuyoshi Yamamoto "Somewhere over the Rainbow" it had the pleasing warm-breathy and reedy-air sound at the same time, just the way I like it with the Predator, modded Viper, and 2MOVE. However, listening to Diana Krall "Temptation" I noticed that the lower mids seemed to be a little over-emphasized in her voice. With many of my headphones, the Boa could be a little too forward in the 250Hz range and could make pianos resonate a little in my ears. Because of this I did not like the Boa with my Freq Show customs or Klipsch Image as much as the other top three amps, but it was still acceptable.

 With string bass, the D2 Viper with LM6172 in the main amp produced noticeably more powerful bass with much better impact. However, vs the stock Viper opamps I felt the bass was similar. The treble in the Boa seemed slightly less extended than the Viper, Pico or even Predator. However, at times the highs could seem smoother than with the Predator, which sounded slightly more aggressive when listened to side by side. 

 The Boa seemed to be lacking some of the transparency found in the the 1st-3rd place amps, as the air and ambience hasn't fully developed yet to what I think it's potential could be (based on what I hear in the Viper). I am hoping that this will get better with more hours, as the other top amps have 500-2000 hours on them. It is fairly transparent, but just not quite to the degree of the others, and this is still the case when fed by my iMod and Vcap dock. However, the Boa did open up and gain more air and ambience, to approach the level of the other top ranked amps by 575 hours of burn-in.

 The Boa also seemed to have a slightly smaller soundstage than the other top amps at first. With the D2 Viper opamps swapped to the THS4032 in the main amp, the Viper has the most air and space to the musical venue, followed by the Pico and then the Predator, with the Boa somewhat behind those but catching up to the size of the Predator's soundstage by 575 hours of burn-in. Even with the more forward sounding LM6172 in the Viper main amp section, the size of the soundstage was slightly bigger than the Boa until 575 hours, and similar to the Predator.

 Some last thoughts. I briefly tried the Boa with my HD600 and Yamaha HP-1 orthodynamics and wished for a little more power, but it was usable - but with the 600 ohm AKG K240M forget about it. There was no problem driving any of my other headphones. The USB charging feature is a major plus for the Boa, as is the doubled battery life vs my Viper. 

 I would take the Boa over a stock D1 or D2 Viper or Headstage Lyrix. If it wasn't for the extra power and optical DAC of the Headroom, the Boa might have placed above that too. Lately I have been using the Predator the most with my 3G Nano, the Viper with my iMod and IEMs, the Micro Stack at my bedside, and the Pico with the laptop but feeding it into other amps. Since the soundstage and transparency have developed and matured more over time with more hours on it, the Boa may well get used as much as the Predator, Viper or Pico.


*Here is the ranking - see comments included:  Comments in Red were added 8/11/08*

*1. RSA Predator* (good bass and soundstage, more body, organic, full. Seems to do well with all my headphones, and not bad with any).
*2. D2 with rolled opamps* (LM6172/THS4032 - balanced, not too forward, sweet/magical Saxophone, almost mesmerizing like Predator. With my IEM I found it sounded best with the LM6172 and THS4032 swapped. This second opamp configuration was good with all my IEM, and not bad with my full size phones, except the RS-1 seem a bit bright and the Proline 2500 lacked fullness in the mids.)
*3. 2MOVE* (sweet mids and saxophone, midbass hmmm, failed the bad mastering diana krall test, great detail and air, too large and heavy)
*3. PICO* (smooth and transparent without coloration, Great DAC, won the bad mastering Diana Krall test, but nothing special with piano and sax like the others, too neutral as an amp - how is that possible, maybe not because there is something around 2Khz that is not right with RS-1. It really seems to shine with my re-cabled Denon D2000, Klipsch Image, Freq Show customs, but doesn't sound bad with anything but my Proline 2500).
*3. Headroom 2006 Micro Stack Portable* (a twin to the Pico's sound but better with piano, too BIG and out of production, with crossfeed mids are richer/warmer but highs rolled off).
*4. D2 Boa* (Sonic signature slightly warmer than the Pico, and between the D2 Viper with LM6172 in the main amp (warmer) vs THS4032 in the main amp and LM6172 in the ground (cooler). Timbre and tone was good, and mids were slightly forward and rich, and highs had slightly less extension than the D2 Viper, Pico and Predator (in that order). The sense of space with live performances was superior with the D2 Viper, Pico and Predator (in that order), and LESS with the Boa at 300 hours of burn-in. However, the Boa did open up and gain more air and ambience on the level of the other top ranked amps by 575 hours of burn-in. Listening to Diana Krall "Girl in the Other Room" (Temptation and other songs) seemed to indicate more of a low mids hump than the other amps, which also caused problems with Pianos and realism on that CD. The problems reproducing this particular CD remained after 575 hours of burn-in, however with other CD's like Jazz at the Pawnshop, Handel Messiah and Tsuyoshi Yamamoto the D2 Boa demonstrated improved transparency and realism with the extra burn-in. And with other music it seems the bass extension is slightly less than the others in the top ranks, but by 575 hours of burn-in (with my RS-1) the 16Hz audio tones on Binks Audio Test CD were clearly audible, and the volume of the 20Hz tone caught me by surprise, while 25Hz was a little disorienting!
*5. D1 with rolled opamps* (AD797 main/LM6643 buffer/LT6234 DAC - powerful, punchy, energetic, alive - not as bright as AD743/6643/6241. The D2 Boa moved up a little with more burn-in, but it wasn't quite good enough to rise up to a 3rd place tie. So the modded D1 and everything else had to move down a slot. The D1 via USB isn't as good as via optical, which is why it is not tied with the D2 Boa once the Boa improved with extended burn-in. 
*6. D2 stock* (thin in the middle, neutral with good bass - it was sound signature and not level of detail that held it back with the stock opamps.)
*7. Lyrix* (good frequency balance, DAC lacking details and air vs the others, but the amp is great)
*8. D1 stock opamps* (put AD823/NE5532/AD8616 back in right before I shipped it back for the 2-3db channel imbalance, too edgy and bright and distant. Very close to 7th as a DAC/Amp because the DAC is so good it makes up for the frequency response issues. Clearly 8th if only using analog input. NOTE - my V1 opamps were from the initial run, and iBasso updated the opamps to V2 in November 07 to make it better than Lyrix.)

*Newest Update 09/08/08: Added Vivid Technology V1 - long with pre-burn-in and post burn-in comments.*

 The Vivid Technology V1 USB DAC portable amp is an AD8397 opamp driven amp, with TL2426 railsplitter for ground, which is similar to the Headstage and Penguinamp choice. The DAC Chip is the PCM2704. The battery is 900mAH 3.6V, but the amplifier always runs off a boosted 5.5V supply. The Lithium Ion battery charger is a smart charger that stops charging when the battery is full. The amp always takes power from the battery in all cases (like the Pico), is trickle charged by the USB port, and can be charged 3x faster with the optional wall wart. I ran the V1 for 15-16 hours on battery via analog input and went to bed with it still running, and when I checked it after 22 hours the battery was dead. I get 15 hours from the stock D2 Viper (7-9 hours with various new opamps), over 20 hours with the Pico, over 24 hours with the Boa (never tried longer) and over 48 hours with the Predator (neck paid attention for longer).

 The ABS case is 2.6"(66mm) x 2.6"(66mm) x 1.1"(28mm), so held next to the Predator and eyeballing it, it looks about 1cm deeper and taller, and about 1.5cm wider (still smaller than the Headstage). It fits under the 3G nano well, only sticking out about 4 mm on either side of the Nano when the nano is in a leather case. You can visit vividaudiotech.com - Headphone Amplifiers to read up on the specs and amp, and see pictures.

 Here is the claimed power output of the V1 (using 1KHz tone, no THD specified) vs the Firestone Cute Beyond. 

 600 ohm - 50mW
 300 ohm - 100mW
 200 ohm - 150mW
 100 ohm - 200mW
 32 ohm - 780mW
 16 ohm - 1.5W

 Cute Beyond published power output:

 600 ohm - 60mw (AKG K240M = 106 db)
 300 ohm - 120mw (HD600 = 118 db)
 120 ohm - 300mw (AKG501 = 119 db)
 75 ohm - 480mw (AKG 270S = 119 db)
 32 ohm - 320mw (Grado SR60/80 = 121 db)

 This is an amp that clearly benefits from burn-in, and at 350 hours it will sound much better than it did out of the box. Taken from my notes on 8/23/08, using the MS-1 with the amp right out of the box, I felt the upper mids were just a little strident/prominent. It sounded punchy with good bass, good separation and detail, but soundstage somewhat was somewhat constricted. There was some obvious sibilance with Diana Krall "Girl in the Other Room" and a few other songs. The volume knob was around 11 o'clock for normal listening. Without any burn-in, even my Creative Xmod with 200 hours was smoother and more transparent/natural with bigger soundstage. 

 With less than 15 minutes on the amp and a 2 hour break, I came back and switched to the RS-1. The cymbals shimmer and hang with nice decay, but there is still sibilance on Diana Krall. The upper mids are still prominent but it is more transparent with the RS-1. With bowls bass should be a little stronger than it is, while flats improve the bass and sibilance but shrink the soundstage. Volume with RS-1 is now around 10 o'clock for normal listening, and I will never listen as loud as it gets at 12 o'clock. Trying some test tomes, out of the box the 20Hz tone is in-audible and missing, 25Hz okay, 31.5Hz strong. I had to EQ out 2 db at 2Khz, and 3 db out at 4Khz and 8Khz to fix the prominent upper mids.

 At 40 hours of burn-in using 20 min pink noise alternating with 2 min silence I switched to HD600, which adds about 1 hour to the volume knob and I have it at 11 for normal listening and 1 o'clock for very loud music. The sound was nice and warm but clear, crisp and detailed. The HD600 really sounds better with the V1 than with my earlier tests with RS-1 or MS-1. At 60 hours with HD600 I notice a big jump in bass, almost too much midbass, but at the same time it is a little smoother upper mids too. With that kind of change, I decided to wait until the DAC was burned in at the halfway point thru the 300 hour recommended burn-in before listening again. At 164 hours with the RS-1 again, I was able to reduce the EQ settings in half vs the out of box EQ settings above. I then moved it over to my iRiver to finish burn-in via the analog input as recommended by the manufacturer, who stated the DAC and anolog inputs use different circuits and I should split the 300 hours between them. (note: I have over 2000 hours on Predator, over 1000 on Viper, over 600 hours on Pico Boa and Micro Amp and Lyrix with USB DAC Cable, and 350 on V1 for the review).

 By 9/7/08 the V1 has 350 hours (164 on DAC), and I am ready for listening. Since it is not quite up to the level of the Predator, D2 Viper with rolled opamps or Pico, I returned the D2 Viper to the stock opamps for the comparisons. The day before I had run the test tones again with RS-1 to compare to out of the box results, and 20Hz is now clearly audible on the V1 while 25Hz is only slightly rolled off vs out of the box where it was not as good. The Pico and Predator are audible to 16Hz, and have more energy at 20Hz than V1, with D2 Boa slightly behind those. The V1 bass extension is similar to the Boa and superior to the stock D2 Viper which is noticeably rolled off at 20Hz. After testing the bass extension with the RS-1 vs out of the box, I had to take a break for my daughter's 15th birthday and come back the next day to start listening to music, so I burned it in an extra 24 hours. 

 I started with the HD600 and stock cable and found that the tonal balance and Timbre is nice, with good bass, mids and treble. There is no boosted bass, just flat and extended and almost as strong as the Predator but not quite. Certainly no lack in bass, and not bass light. With Infected Mushroom "Dancing with the Kadafi" the bass is rockin', punchy and hits hard. That was my first WoW! moment with the V1 amp (goosebumps and all when I was at 164 hours), which is why I chose to start with HD600. Switching to string bass, it is not supposed to hit hard and it sounds like it should - crisp and quick and present. So it isn't over-boosting the bass levels but it is bangin' when it is supposed to be.

 Mids are rich and warm, and not very peaky or resonating in the ears or head, although there does seem to be a mild low mids "boxy" coloration that is very similar to that of the D2 Boa, especially with close miked female vocals. This makes some female vocals like Shelby Lynn in "Just a little Lovin" or Diana Krall in "Girl in the Other Room" sound slightly artificial or less transparent vs Predator/Pico/D2 Viper/HR MicroAmp. Similar to the D2 Boa, I have a hard time noticing this coloration with acoustic and wind instruments or electronic program material, as it's mostly only an issue with vocals. And, this is not with all vocals - switching to Herbie Hancock "River:The Joni Letters" with Nora Jones singing the first track, her voice seems more natural with both the V1 and D2 Boa, and male vocals like Jack Johnson "Sleep Through the Sttaic sound fine with them too.

 Treble has a nice sparkle, shimmer and decay to cymbals, and pianos have a sharp quick attack but do not drill into the head. With HD600 the V1 does not accentuate the sibilance present in the Diana Krall recording above, which is a test album I use for that purpose. I also use the "Girl in the Other Room" to test for lower midrange coloration as Diana Krall is very close mike'd and it is easy to push the lower mids over the top as above (which is exactly what I heard).

 The soundstage is similar to the 2MOVE, not too close and not too distant, although it is somewhat more forward than the Predator (making it closer to that of the 2MOVE). It is certainly more forward sounding than the Pico, D2 Viper and D2 Boa or HR Micro Amp, while the other amps have a larger more open soundstage vs the V1. Listening via the USB DAC for the entire review, despite being somewhat forward sounding there is still a good sense of space and ambience - but there is a little less transparency than with the Predator or other amps, like watching through a clean window instead of an open window. It does seem to be a little more micro-detailed than the Headstage Lyrix USB DAC or iBasso D1 USB DAC were. The V1 DAC is also not as smooth sounding as the Pico (or the other amps to some degree), but I wonder how much of that is the Pico and other amps being less forward and not having the slightly more pronounced upper mids (2KHz-8Khz) of the V1. 

 A nice loud but enjoyable volume level setting with HD600 and the Macbook is about 11-1 o'clock, depending on the program material. I find listening to most music at 2 o'clock is too loud for me, and 3 o'clock just starts to clip a little with no change going higher than 3 o'clock. Again, I would likely never want to listen loud enough to clip with HD600. The V1 has no problem driving the HD600, and the same volume at 11 o'clock with the V1 needs 1:30 o'clock in high gain with the D2 Boa. 5 o'clock (max) on the Boa is like 1:30 - 2 o'clock on the V1, and it sounds like the V1 can double the power of the Boa by 3 o'clock (sounds a good 3-4 db louder). On quiet classical music with wide dynamic range, this is a big plus over the Boa and stock D2 Viper.

 This amp really seems to have some nice synergy with the HD600, and for $99 is a screamin' deal for you HD600 owners. It makes the HD600 sound good with all types of music - even if the Predator and Pico are a little better, they may not be $400 better for many people. The D2 Viper with rolled opamps and 2MOVE and Micro Amp are also slightly better with HD600, but still 2-3x the cost. This is a $99 amp that competes well with $170-180 amps driving HD600 (Stock Viper, Boa and Headstage). But switching from HD600 to the RS-1 (APS V3 cable and bowls) while I was listening to Jack Johnson is where those prominent uppers mids (2KHz - 8KHz) become more noticeable. After a few hours with the HD600 and stock cable, switching to the RS-1 with APS V3 cable was almost a shock to me. 

 As mentioned before, with the V1 fresh out of the box and driving the RS-1 I had to EQ out about 3 db at 2, 4 and 8Khz, but with the stock HD600 I needed NO EQ. After 164 hours of burn-in I had found that the amount of EQ needed with RS-1 and bowls had decreased to only removing 1 or 1.5 db at those frequencies, which is when I switched to burning it in without the DAC (so no EQ). Hoping to be able to make due without any EQ, I decided to get my ears acclimated to the RS-1 by listening to only the RS-1 for a while. I also switched to some non-vocal jazz music again - Guinea Pig "Kool Kats". 

 This was much less glaring, and the sax, trombone, trumpet, bass, drums and cymbals sounded much better and I could enjoy it with no EQ at all; although the EQ would bring it more in line with the other amps. Switching to Tsuyoshi Yamamoto "Smooth Jazz Festival" 'Somewhere Over the Rainbow' had the saxophone sounding a little edgier than the Predator, Pico or Boa until I applied the EQ again, although I could enjoy it without EQ. Pianos on this Tsuyoshi Yamamoto were not quite as enjoyable without the EQ as the other music. Moving back to some vocals with Shelby Lynn "Just a Little Lovin" (once my ears were acclimated) I found it sounded better with no EQ. But Jack Johnson still sounded a bit edgy. Most Jazz and Classical as well as electronic and new age sounded fine with the RS-1 and bowls driven by the V1, and for those albums that didn't sound their best, using the mild EQ brings them into balance and then it sounds very good with RS-1. 

 A light bulb went off in my head, and I switched the RS-1 back to flats like I tried whn out of the box, and voila - much better! This also helped somewhat with the lower mids coloration that I heard. I definitely prefer using the Grado flat pads with the RS-1 and V1 amp, which reduced ANY need for EQ of the upper mids. At this point the RS-1 became much more enjoyable with the V1, and it was almost up to the level of the D2 Viper and Boa with the RS-1, but not quite. Jack Johnson was now pleasant with no EQ. Even with the flat pads, many classical recordings such as "Handel's Messiah" still retained a good sense of space and ambience, despite the smaller soundstage with the flats. In doing the volume comparisons using RS-1, I found that a volume setting of 11 o'clock on the V1 with Infected Mushroom corresponded to a 1 o'clock in high gain on the stock D2 Viper. 12 o'clock was quite loud and rockin' with the V1 and electronica!

 Switching to the Ultrasone Edition 9, the V1 was back in its element again, and paired well with these headphones. I enjoyed the V1 with the Edition 9 as much as I enjoyed it with the HD600, although I noticed the Pico has more bass with the Edition 9 than the V1, as did the Predator, D2 Viper and Boa. A little experimentation showed me that I can play the V1 louder with the Edition 9 without being over-whealmed with bass (which is easy for me due to my chronic tinnitus, which wasn't helped any by firing a firearm at a charging bear two weeks ago). However one of the advantages that the Edition 9 have over other my headphones is not having to play them loudly to get a good frequency response and liveliness. With Edition 9 and some music like Infected Mushroom "Dancing with the Kadafi" from the B.P. Empire album, I thought the V1 was better than the Pico, but with live jazz and classical music on the Edition 9 I found the Predator and Pico were the best again, followed by the Micro Amp and the two D2 amps. I don't have the loaner 2MOVE to compare, and didn't have time to roll the D2 Viper opamps again. 

 Typically with the Edition 9 and Pico, Viper or Boa the normal listening level is with the volume knob at 10 o'clock in HI gain, and it is at 9:30 with the V1. The Predator HI gain with Edition 9 puts the volume knob at about 9 o'clock! As a point of reference, medium gain on Predator puts the volume at 10 o'clock and low gain puts it at 12 o'clock.

 I do not have my Denon D2000 while they are being re-terminated as balanced 4-pin (with SE adapter), so I tried my 600 ohm AKG K240M that used to be owned by Stevie Wonder (eBay seller bought them from his ex-wife, and he was selling all kinds of stereo equipment and DAT with brail dots on them, and they smell like his hair gel 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ). Anyway, these are quite difficult to drive. Moderate and good volume levels can be obtained at max volume without clipping the V1 (5 o'clock). The V1 can play much louder with the AKG K240M than the stock D2 Viper, which I maxed out in high gain at 5 0'clock and still found the D2 Viper to be about 5-6 db quieter. The D2 Boa was maybe 1-2 db louder than the Viper with these 600 ohm AKG, but it still couldn't attain the higher levels of the V1 when at max volume. The Predator in high gain at 3 o'clock could beat the stock Viper volume and match the Boa in volume, but it would clip at anything past 3 o'clock with the 240M. Only the Pico could exceed the V1 volume levels with these headphones, by at least another 2-3 db! With the Pico and V1, maybe 10% of my music had a high enough input signal to make me back down the volume knob by half an hour from max volume to avoid clipping. And, transparency with the AKG was quite good, possibly even better than with the HD600 which were previously my favorite with this amp! (although the bass is not as strong as the HD600). All the amps were very transparent with the AKG K240M and these are great headphones, but only the Pico and V1 could really do them any justice without resorting to a desktop amp, with the Pico still a clear lead. Wow again, to be in second place with these headphones was a big surprise! 

 Next were IEM. I switched to Klipsh Image X10 IEM which can be a little harder to drive vs my high sensitivity Custom IEM's. The volume for normal listening was 9:30 on the V1, and by 10 o'clock it was moderately loud volumes and higher than I typically listen at. 11 o'clock was louder than I will ever use, and clipping started at 12 o'clock with extremely loud volume levels. I hear no hiss with music paused until I get past 10:30 o'clock, so it isn't likely that I will ever hear hiss between songs when listening to the Image at loud volumes. With analog input and the music paused I don't hear any hiss until 11:30 o'clock (using iRiver H140). The power switch is built into the volume knob, like the Pico and Ibasso D2 amps, but there is less channel imbalance at low volume settings in the V1 vs those other amps - so I can play it very quietly with the Image X10 without problems, like when going to sleep or for background music. The D2 Boa could not play the Image quite as loud, and was clipping in low gain by 2 o'clock. I thought the V1 had good synergy with the Image X10, and was very enjoyable - tight strong bass, warm mids, crisp sparkly highs (using shallow insertion of the Image into ear canals). The lower mids were a little more pronounced with the Image on vocals than I liked, but were acceptable.

 Last ones to try were my Freq Show custom IEM, which are so sensitive that I actually hear music with the V1 volume all the down and just above the power-on setting! I turned up the volume to 10:30 and heard hiss with the music paused, and backed down to 10 o'clock where the hiss went away. I un-paused the music and was blasted out of my skull by the loud music! I will never listen to the Freq Show at 10 o'clock, with 9 to 9:15 o'clock being a normal listening level and 9:30 to 9:45 is fairly loud. Again, I can play them very quietly without a channel imbalance, but not as quietly as I could the less sensitive Image. Still, it was acceptable for low level "go to sleep music" volumes. 

 The sound with the Freq Show was not bad with some music, very good with others, and a big problem with others - this being the fault of the IEM not the amp. Similar to the problems with using my Freq Show with the Meier Headsix or D2 with LM6172 opamp, vocals like Shelby Lynn "Just a Little Lovin" or Diana Krall "Girl in the Other Room" had the lower mids too pronounced and caused my ears to ring and roar. For those of you whom have read my reviews linked in my public profile (about me section), you know that with my ears the Freq Show are very picky about amps, and I almost returned these IEM for a refund. A few other people have reported the Freq causing ringing and roaring in their ears as well, not just me, although it is a very small minority of people. For example, my Headsix (lo gain) is great with Livewires but I didn't like it with my Freq; while Germania loved her Freq Show with her Headsix, so I do think it is "ear" dependent with these IEM. I picked these IEM for the review because they are popular and are the most fickle ones I own in regards to which amp I choose. With the Jack Johnson "Sleep Through the Static" they sounded good, and with non-vocal jazz and classical music I also have no problem with the resonance and ringing, but some (not all) acoustic guitar and piano music would ring in my ears too. 

 Again, THIS IS A PROBLEM WITH MY FREQ SHOW, not the amp - but the V1 amp doesn't help the problem any. This problem being uncommon to other people made me decide that it will not affect it's ranking below. I usually have to use either my Pico or Predator, or D2 Viper with rolled opamps for these IEM, or I have to play them very quietly if I don't have the right amp available. That being said, at very quiet volume levels like 9:00 - 9:15 o'clock then Shelby Lynn or pianos do sound nice with the Freq. My highly sensitive Livewires custom IEM are out in my car and not tested, but they sound good with every amp I have tried so I have no fear using them with the V1.

*NEW AMP RANKING 09/08/2008 - Adding Vivid Technology V1.*

*Here is the ranking - see comments included if you haven't read the entire review:*

*1. RSA Predator* (good bass and soundstage, more body, organic, full. Seems to do well with all my headphones, and not bad with any).
*2. D2 with rolled opamps* (LTC6241HV/LMH6622 sounds like 98% of the Predator with 7 hour battery life. LM6172/THS4032 - balanced, not too forward, sweet/magical Saxophone, almost mesmerizing like Predator. With my IEM I found it sounded best with the LM6172 and THS4032 swapped. This second opamp configuration was good with all my IEM, and not bad with my full size phones, except the RS-1 seem a bit bright and the Proline 2500 lacked fullness in the mids.)
*3. 2MOVE* (sweet mids and saxophone, midbass hmmm, failed the bad mastering diana krall test, great detail and air, too large and heavy)
*3. PICO* (smooth and transparent without coloration, Great DAC, won the bad mastering Diana Krall test, but nothing special with piano and sax like the others, too neutral as an amp - how is that possible, maybe not because there is something around 2Khz that is not right with RS-1. It really seems to shine with my re-cabled Denon D2000, Klipsch Image, Freq Show customs, but doesn't sound bad with anything but my Proline 2500).
*3. Headroom 2006 Micro Stack Portable* (a twin to the Pico's sound but better with piano, too BIG and out of production, with crossfeed mids are richer/warmer but highs rolled off).
*4. D2 Boa* (Sonic signature slightly warmer than the Pico, and between the D2 Viper with LM6172 in the main amp (warmer) vs THS4032 in the main amp and LM6172 in the ground (cooler). Timbre and tone was good, and mids were slightly forward and rich, and highs had slightly less extension than the D2 Viper, Pico and Predator (in that order). The sense of space with live performances was superior with the D2 Viper, Pico and Predator (in that order), and LESS with the Boa at 300 hours of burn-in. However, the Boa did open up and gain more air and ambience on the level of the other top ranked amps by 575 hours of burn-in. Listening to Diana Krall "Girl in the Other Room" (Temptation and other songs) seemed to indicate more of a low mids hump than the other amps, which also caused problems with Pianos and realism on that CD. The problems reproducing this particular CD remained after 575 hours of burn-in, however with other CD's like Jazz at the Pawnshop, Handel Messiah and Tsuyoshi Yamamoto the D2 Boa demonstrated improved transparency and realism with the extra burn-in. And with other music it seems the bass extension is slightly less than the others in the top ranks, but by 575 hours of burn-in (with my RS-1) the 16Hz audio tones on Binks Audio Test CD were clearly audible, and the volume of the 20Hz tone caught me by surprise, while 25Hz was a little disorienting!
*5. D1 with rolled opamps* (AD797 main/LM6643 buffer/LT6234 DAC - powerful, punchy, energetic, alive - not as bright as AD743/6643/6241. The D2 Boa moved up a little with more burn-in, but it wasn't quite good enough to rise up to a 3rd place tie. So the modded D1 and everything else had to move down a slot. The D1 via USB isn't as good as via optical, which is why it is not tied with the D2 Boa after the Boa improved with extended burn-in. With optical input would beat the Boa easily. 
*6. Vivid Technology V1* (very good synergy with HD600 and AKG K240M 600 ohm, nice and fun with Edition 9 and Klipsch Image X10, acceptable with RS-1 IF switching to flats but bowls are not recommended, unacceptable with my Freq Show but not the amp's fault. DAC with slightly more micro-detal than stock D1 via USB or Headstage Lyrix, slightly less than either D2 Viper/Boa or the other amps. The most forward of all the amps. Can be near 3rd or 4th place with HD600 and 2nd with K240M, but 9th place with Grado RS-1 and bowls.)
*6. D2 stock* - tied (thin in the middle, neutral with good bass - it was sound signature and power but not level of detail that held it back with the stock opamps.) Sounds good with Freq Show and most of my IEM, fairly good with HD600 and Edition 9 but lacks power, not bad with RS-1 but can't properly drive AKG K240M 600 ohm. Sounds better with re-cabled modded ATH-AD900 than the Boa or V1.
*7. Lyrix* (good frequency balance, DAC lacking details and air vs the others, but the amp is great with analog input.)
*8. D1 stock opamps* (put AD823/NE5532/AD8616 back in right before I shipped it back for the 2-3db channel imbalance, too edgy and bright and distant. Very close to 7th as a DAC/Amp because the DAC is so good it makes up for the frequency response issues. Clearly 8th if only using analog input. NOTE - my V1 opamps were from the initial run, and iBasso updated the opamps to V2 in November 07 to make it better than Lyrix.)

*11/1/08 - iBasso D3 Python added:*

 I received the iBasso D3 Python review sample on 10/15 and started the burn-in right away, to reach 300 hours and do my review. I have used some popular headphones and the top 4 phones all have APureSound cable on them, including Grado RS-1, Denon AH-D2000, Sennheiser HD600 (silver mesh) and Ultrasone Edition 9. I also tested with Livewires custom IEM, and Klipsch Image X10 IEM. It sounded fantastic with everything, even right out of the box. Without any burn-in it sounded as good as my 1500+ hour D2 Viper with LM4562 opamp in the main socket and LM6172 in the ground. 

 I used 5xAAA Energizer batteries in the D3 and I got 123 hours out of the batteries before they became too weak to play loud without distortion today. The next set last 113 hours. The third set was Rayovac Hybrid NiMH long lasting re-chargeables which went over 96 hours on a charge (it was still running strong at 96 hours at 2am even though the LED had become dim, and it was dead at 10am when I got up). During burn-in I used my Denon D2000 with a pillow between the ear cups and listened intermittently each day, without a lot of changes during that time. I just finished charging the batteries, and with 332 hours on the D3 I am starting my review (10/29/08). 

 My first listening had been with Denon D2000 and this was the first time to try the Grado RS-1 with bowls, so I started there. I had previously compared the D3 Python out of the box vs my D2 Viper (see above) and felt I could not tell which was which with my eyes closed, so this time I started my comparison vs the D2 Boa (while the Viper and Predator are being charged). I put on some Shelby Lynn "Just a Little Lovin" and felt that the D2 Boa sounded nice. After 3-4 tracks on the Shelby Lynn album, I switched to Guinea Pig "Kool Cats", and Tsuyoshi Yamamoto "Smooth Jazz Festival", Jazz at the Pawnshop, Handel "Messiah", Arvo Part "Tabula Rasa", Sibelius (assorted), Infected Mushroom "B.P. Empire", We the Kings "We the Kings", Metro Station "Metro Station", and Jack Johnson "Sleep Through the Static". After that I just randomly picked music from my library that I wanted to hear.

 Switching between the D2 Boa to the D3 Python produced a noticeable change - the soundstage opened up a bit and became bigger, and the highs brightened up a little. The D3 Python seems a little more clear and sparkly than the D2 Boa. The third thing I noticed was the D3 Python's seems a little more solid and focused than the Boa. This not to say the D2 Boa doesn't have treble presence or good bass, just that the D3 Python is better. The next thing I noticed was the D2 Boa at 800 hours has lost a little more of the lower mids hump that it used to have in female vocals - this brought it up to being less colored than before, and closer to being neutral like the D3. If you recall from previously, it took 600 hours for the Boa's soundstage to open up as much as it did, and it was still changing for a long time like the Predator which took 1000 hours - so it is reasonable to me that the D2 Boa sound has further improved with time. On the other hand, the D2 Viper only took 300 hours to fully burn-in, and the D3 Python seems like it needed even less time. Nevertheless, the D3 is an upgrade over the Boa in the areas I mentioned.

 Next was comparing the D3 to the Pico, still with the RS-1. Now if you have read all of my review from the beginning, you will see that while I gave the Predator a slight edge in personal preference, I have always said the Pico was very good and I enjoy it (9.7/10 vs 10/10). I have also posted in another thread that the Pico's sound had become warmer after I put an additional 300-400 hours on it, after Asr had owned it and broken it in already. Most recently I had decided that I now like the Pico as much as my D2 Viper with rolled opamps, and have been planning to move it up to a second place tie. It's still my favorite to use as a USB DAC Pre-amp to feed a full sized amp. So while comparing the D3 Python to the Pico with the Grado RS-1 tonight I thought the Pico was slightly smoother in the upper mids - but in regards to soundstage and air and ambience and micro-detail I think they are on a very similar level, with only the very slightest edge going to the Pico. The upper mids did not cause trouble with the RS-1 and rock music like I had found with the Vivid V1, so it was still enjoyable with bowls or flats won the RS-1. 

 Switching to the Denon D2000 I felt the Pico's advantage in the smoothness of the upper mids went away. I have previously said I really like the Synergy between the Pico and D2000, and I think the D3 has it there in spades too. With the D2000 I can tell that the two amps do sound a little different - the D3 bass was slightly less in quantity than with the Pico (like maybe only 1 db), but maybe it was a little more taught with the D3 Python. Again, the soundstage remained open and airy with good detail; and with both amps and I could place Shelby Lynn and the various instruments on stage - same with other pieces like Jazz at the Pawnshop where the D3/D2000 combo was very transparent with excellent soundstage and instrument placement. Interestingly I was then surprised with some classical music where I found it a little bit too wide, where sometimes I felt the result left a hole in the middle (Sibelius: Finlandia, En Saga, Karelia Suite, Etc.). This didn't occur with the D3 and RS-1 or D3/HD600, or with the Pico and D2000 where I found a more cohesive soundstage from ear to ear with no hole. With Arvo Part "Tabula Rasa" the hole was much smaller in the center of the soundstage but not entirely gone. With Handel: Messiah the hole went away completely with the D2000, just by changing the program material. Since the issue wasn't apparent with the D3/RS-1 or D3/HD600, it is also possible that it's the fault of the D2000 since I haven't done the markl mods and stuffed the earpads to tilt the cans and drivers more. I would again put the D3 and Pico on about the same level with all my other program material, as it was difficult to find any other material that gave a hole in the soundstage with the D2000. One other test I ran was test tones since the D2000 has such excellent sub-bass, and the D3 has solid bass down to 20Hz with the D2000 (and 16Hz is audible).

 Listening with the HD600 the D3 had good synergy and sounded very similar to the Pico again, and it has plenty of power to drive them to high volumes as well. The power output with these 300 ohm cans is very good, and better than the Predator and D2 Boa in terms of sheer clean volume. The power output with HD600 is very similar to the Pico and Vivid V1. I found nothing to complain about with the D3 and HD600, and would be happy to listen to the combo anytime. Female and male vocals are still very good like with the other headphones, and I liked the D3 with all genres out of the HD600. The bass was powerful but detailed, the mids smooth and the highs sparkly, just the way I like it. The D3/HD600 was just as exciting with Infected Mushroom "Dancing with the Kadafi" as with the Pico and V1 in my earlier reviews, and I could achieve the same volume levels with the D3 at 4 o'clock as the Pico at 3 o'clock, but past that either amp would start clipping. With the HD600 the D2 Boa was well behind in volume and punch, with at least 4-5 db less output. There were NO soundstage defects with the HD600, and the soundstage was centered in front of my forehead and running from in front of my head to inside of my head, and width was good as well. Again, this was reminiscent of the Pico soundstage. However, the Pico does still seem be a little clearer in the ambient cues and very slightly more detailed in complex passages. 

 With the Edition 9 I was really impressed with the D3 - it does a good job controlling the bass and defining it like with the D2000, so it doesn't over power the rest of the sound spectrum. It was clean and alive sounding, and very quick and punchy. Soundstage, tone, transparency and frequency balance are all a good match for the Edition 9. Normal listening levels were at 10 o'clock and it could play very loudly at 12 o'clock, reaching the same volume levels that I would achieve with the HD600 maxed out at 4 o'clock! Clipping would not begin until past 2 o'clock with the Ediiton 9, at volume levels much higher than I could ever use, and I could feel my ears and jaw shaking at max clean volumes - thank God for the ear plugs! The Pico still manages to out-power the D3 with Edition 9, by probably a noticeable 2 db louder, even though they could both play to the same volume with HD600. 

 The last ones to try were some IEM. I felt the D3 was very good with my Livewires, SE530 in Custom Shells, Freq Show and Klipsch Image X10. However, I could easily hear that the D3 is picking up some RF interference from NORAD and Cheyenne Mountain that are in my backyard, along all the local radio station towers are up the mountain too! I could actually hear FM stations being picked up by the D3, which made it very difficult to use with IEM and USB. With my iMod or analog input there was no such RF interference, and it only occurred with a USB cable plugged into the back of the D3, even if not connected to a computer. And it was only heard with headphones plugged into the amp when the amp is turned on, but not heard in the DAC line out. I had a similar problem with my Meier HA-1 Mk2 headphone amp, but only with headphones plugged into the low impedance headphone jack, and sure enough this RF improves in the basement like the HA-1 did when I moved it there. I will be taking my amps to a Colorado Head-fi meet Saturday 11/1 in Denver, and will listen again for any RF interference, but I'm pretty sure the fault is Cheyenne Mountain - because of them we had to change all of our garage door frequencies because NORAD was blocking the remote door openers.

 Fortunately it only occurs between 8 o'clock and 9 o'clock on the volume knob, almost like the D3 uses an active volume control. And it gets better in some parts of the house where the radio towers that are on the mountain behind my house don't seem to reach as well. I hadn't noticed it before because I was only using the volume between 9-12 o'clock to listen to music with full size headphones. None of my other amps pick up radio stations, but the D3 Python and D2 Viper are also very susceptible to chattering from my iPhone if it is anywhere near the amps.

*Finally - Ranking, with a caveat:* I want to first clarify a little about some changes my personal tastes and preferences. One big area that is becoming more important to me over time is not just having those rich warm seductive mids for vocals and saxophone or other acoustic instruments, but also having good transparency with larger soundstage and good ambience and space, ALL AT THE SAME TIME. My home amps have spoiled me and I am becoming more demanding in my expectations as well. 

 Summarizing what I was thinking previously - The 2MOVE that I initially ranked slightly above the Pico was very detailed and warm and rich. But it lacked some space and air or ambience vs many of the other amps, creating a more forward intimate setting that I REALLY dug at the time I reviewed it. Some of this soundstage was due to the amp section itself, as feeding it with a better DAC still felt more close and intimate (just not quite as much). I do not have a 2MOVE anymore to compare to the D3 DAC, but I do have most of the other amps that I previously compared the 2MOVE against. Having listened to all of them again (except 2MOVE), I think that at this point I am happier with the Pico than I would have been if I had owned the 2MOVE. As a matter of fact, I haven't used my Meier Headsix in months, which has a similar sound signature and soundstage as the 2MOVE. I have been using the Predator, Pico and D2 Viper the most out of all of them.

 Now, the Predator via DAC was more spacious than 2MOVE, while the Pico would project an even bigger more spacious and airy soundstage above and beyond all the others. The D2 Viper with the first round of rolled opamps (LM6172/THS4032) was in between the Pico and Predator in rank, but closer to the Predator in soundstage - what I considered a good compromise. The whole reason the Pico fell behind the others despite it's audibly superior DAC was the lack of fullness in the lower mids and the way a hard strike on the piano keys would bite my ears. Both of those problems were not audible when using it as a DAC/pre-amp instead of driving headphones - but when I listen with headphones now, those issues have also improved over the months since my initial review (the same ones as back in March).

 However, the old D2 Viper top-pick opamp combo had a problem with sucking down the battery in 7 hours, and with being too forward with many of my IEM, allowing the Pico to pass it up with IEM. So I made changes and currently the D2 Viper has the LM4562/LM6172 in it, which is more clear and open and spacious (plus battery life climbed from 7 hours to 17). I would say it is now closer to the detail and space and ambience of the Pico, and I would put the D3 in that category as well. This is good, because they are also rich and not thin sounding in the mids. Seriously, the Predator, Pico and D3 are just so close that I might be ready to be put out to pasture and give up doing these reviews - but I still put the Predator just slightly ahead in how it conveys the emotion of the music in it's tone, although I like the soundstage and space of the Pico a little more. 

 So, even if the 2MOVE were here today I suspect that I would rank the Predator first, followed closely by a tie for second with Pico, D2 Viper (LM4562/LM6172), and Micro Stack, and I'd have the 2MOVE as a close 3rd. I suspect that all along I should have placed the 2MOVE there because otherwise I would have bought one by now (my 2MOVE loan was way back in April). That leaves me in a quandary as to where to put the D3 Python because while I like it very much, the RF problem makes it difficult for me to place it higher ranked than those in 1st - 3rd place above. And it can't tie with the Pico because the Pico also now has a very slight advantage of smoother upper mids with the RS-1, and slightly more ambient cues and micro-detail in complex passages. 

 At this point, while sounding closer to my second place picks when I can find a quiet spot in my house, I have to say it is tied with 2MOVE in 3rd. Although I'd rather listen to D3 than 2MOVE at this stage of the game, the RF interference wont let me rank it higher. I recognize that the RF is due to my particular location, and it may not affect anyone else out there like it has for me (will find out tomorrow). Such are the hazards of putting together a subjective review like this, when based on their technical merits either none of them are losers and personal preferences can change, or where personal preferences makes one decide to ignore technical faults. It was like Goldilocks saying this bed is too hard, and this one is too soft, but this one is just right. Who am I to say what you "sleep number" should be. I do think I need to be approaching any reviews in the future with a more objective eye (or should I say, ear), as I feel I am losing some of that here.

 Nevertheless, I am now considering parting with the D2 Viper because the D3 sounds just as good, has 7x more battery life, and it also sounds great as a DAC-only when I feed a full size amp (without needing any batteries). While the D2 Viper can be made to sound similar to a Predator with the right opamps, and closer to the Pico with others, the D3 Python splits the difference well enough that it doesn't matter. Despite the nice DAC in the D3, I'm pretty sure right now that the D3 will spend most of it's time replacing the D2 viper as my "iMod amp". The Predator remains paired with my 3G Nano as the combo is pretty wicked sounding for such a small package. And the Pico will continue to be used the most with my Macbook and either powering headphones or used as a DAC/preamp feeding a desktop amp. If it wasn't for the nasty RF problem in my neighborhood caused by the radio towers right behind my house, I'd maybe use the D3 for the macbook instead because of the improved battery life.

_*UPDATE 11/6/08:*__* Cannot fit the ranking in the first post after the D3 review without exceeding the 100,000 character limit. See 01/04/09 or newer rankings in the second post.

UPDATE 12/15/08 - CANNOT FIT MY FULL NUFORCE ICON REVIEW BELOW INTO THE FIRST POST, EXCEEDING 100000 CHARACTER LIMIT - SEE SECOND POST FOR FULL BODY OF NUFORCE REVIEW: 


HEADPHONES USED: Westone 3, Klipsch Image X10, Denon C700, Nuforce NE-7M, ATH-ESW10JPN, APS V3 cabled HD600, APS V3 cabled RS-1, APS V3 cabled markl Woodied Denon D2000, and APS V3 cabled Edition.

MUSIC USED: Michael Knowles "Bink Audio Test CD", Nils Lofgren "Acoustic Live", Arne Domnerus "Antiphone Blues" and "Jazz at the Pawnshop", Infected Mushroom "B.P. Empire", Tord Gustavsen Trio "Being There", Pat Metheny "Day Trip", Tsuyoshi Yamamoto "Autumn in Seattle" and "Smooth Jazz Festival", B.B. King and Eric Clapton "Riding With the King", Shelby Lynn "Just a Little Lovin'", Nora Jones "Not Too Late", Arvo Part "Tabula Rasa", Jack Johnson "Sleep Through the Static" and "In Between Dreams", Elaine Elias "Something for You", Gary Karr "Super Double-bass", Guinea Pig "Kool Cats", Christopher Hogwood "Handel Messiah", Pink Floyd "DSOT", The Beatles "Love", Beck "Sea Change", Diana Krall "Girl in the Other Room", Coldplay "Viva La Vida", and Skillet "Comatose".

 The Nuforce Icon Mobile is a $99 entry level portable USB DAC/Amp, which has more of a flat form factor that is amenable to being stacked under an iPod without adding too much size to the overall package. It is about the same width and depth as the iBasso D2 Boa, but almost half as tall/thick, so you can almost stack two Icon Mobile on top of each other to achieve the thickness of one D2 Boa. When plugged into the Macbook's USB port the DAC shows up as a "C-Media USB Headphone Set". The Nuforce has some unique features including two headphone out jacks which switch on the power when a headphone plug is inserted, with the jack closer the center being a special jack that works with 4-conductor headsets with stereo headphones and a built-in microphone, like the Nuforce NE-7M iPhone IEM (or other iPhone IEM). This allows the NE-7M to be used as a headset with telephony applications, instant messaging and Skype, and probably for gaming as well. I have not been able to test this telephony feature, but the mic did show up in my Mac's Audio MIDI setup application as the left channel only microphone. The analog input is on the same end of the amp as the two outputs (we'll call it the top end), and all three jacks are slightly recessed by about 0.5 mm along one edge of the amp... 

 Post is too large to edit... SEE POST #2 FOR THE FULL REVIEW and RANKING - http://www.head-fi.org/forums/3947073-post2.html

UPDATE 01/04/09 - XM5 USB DAC Amp by Practical Devices Corporation  CANNOT FIT REVIEW INTO POST #1, FULL REVIEW IS IN POST #2:






 I used my usual playlist of lossless songs and typical rotation of headphones with the XM5, and I really like the XM5 - the quality of sound it puts out deserves the $245-$325 that it sells for (depending on options like optional BUF634, or AD8397 kit, or Li rechargable vs Alkaline). Based on the sound, I assume this dual mono amp has to be a major upgrade from the XM4, not just an evolution. It comes stock with a pair of OPA134 opamps, which are single channel opamps, and it has a pair of buffer sockets for improved current output by using optional BUF634 chips, or another opamp like AD8397 in the buffers. It come standard with using a 9v alkaline battery (50 hours), and a charging circuit for rechargables is optional (40 hours).

 SEE POST #2 FOR THE FULL REVIEW and MOST RECENT RANKING - http://www.head-fi.org/forums/3947073-post2.html

RANKING: I HATE THE RANKING BECAUSE NOW I HAVE TOO MANY 3RD PLACE TIES, ALTHOUGH FOR DIFFERENT REASONS, and I would not wish to part with any of the amps in 3rd or higher because they all have an area where they excel. (except D2 Viper which could sound like a Predator or a Pico but was redundant with poor battery life and was sold). Anything in 4th and below is expendable, even if very good sounding. I previously moved the 2MOVE to 4th because I couldn't remember how good it sounded, having not listened to one in months. Now I have a 3MOVE which sounds like a 2MOVE with an upgraded case, and I can fix my ranking. See additional comments included if you haven't read the entire review:

1. RSA Predator (good bass and soundstage, more body, organic, full. Seems to do well with all my headphones, and not bad with any. Gobs of power with RS-1, D2000 and Edition 9 but Could use a little more power with HD600 - very underpowered for AKG K240M 600 ohm. DAC is not as good as the Pico, but the sound of the amp makes up for it)
2. D2 Viper with rolled opamps (with LM6172/THS4032 - balanced, not too forward, sweet/magical Saxophone, almost mesmerizing like Predator. With my IEM I found it sounded better with the LM6172 and THS4032 swapped. This second opamp configuration was good with all my IEM, and not bad with my full size phones, except the RS-1 seem a bit bright and the Proline 2500 lacked fullness in the mids. With LTC6241HV/LMH6622 sounds like 98% of the Predator with only 7 hour battery life. Later I discovered the LM4562 main/LM6172 ground, and this works very well for full size phones and IEM - very open and spacious and detailed, sounding closer to the Pico without losing any warmth or rich tone. And battery life was bumped from 7 hours to 17 hours!)
3. PICO (smooth and transparent without coloration, Great DAC, won the bad mastering Diana Krall test, but nothing special with piano and sax like the others, too neutral as an amp - how is that possible, maybe not because there is something around 2Khz that is not right with RS-1. It really seems to shine with my re-cabled Denon D2000, Klipsch Image, Freq Show customs, but doesn't sound bad with anything but my Proline 2500). Over the past few months the Pico has really been growing on me, and it no longer seems to lack warmth with my RS-1 or other headphones (especially since I sold the PL2500). The DAC's space and ambience and soundstage still stand out as slightly superior, as before, and it seems to do well with most IEM but not all)
3. Headroom 2006 Micro Stack Portable (a twin to the Pico's sound but better with piano, too BIG and out of production, with crossfeed mids are richer/warmer but highs rolled off).
3. 2MOVE/3MOVE (sweet mids and saxophone, midbass hmmm, failed the bad mastering diana krall test, great detail and air, too large and heavy, sounds as good as Pico but it's a different sound, sometimes too forward. NO iPhone Buzz. Auditory memory fades as I hadn't listened to the 2MOVE since April, so I bought a B-stock 3MOVE and found I do still enjoy it very much. Since I am liking open and spacious sound a little more now, the Pico moved up to tie the 3MOVE rather than move the 3MOVE down. I did add listening to the Westone 3 with this amp and they are fantastic together. 3MOVE is a better match for the D2000 and RS-1 than XM5, while I liked the XM5 more with HD600, Edition 9 and ESW10, even though 3MOVE had more power for HD600)
3. Practical Devices XM5 (amp section better than D3 and rivals higher ranked amps, but DAC not as good as the D3 - so it evens out. Gets along better with more of my headphones than D3 and with all of my IEM, and I am having no iPhone buzzing with it so far. A chameleon - many times it sounds like my Predator, and other times it sounds more like the 3MOVE, and the amp section really shines with iMod or an external DAC)
4. D3 Python (very sensitive to RF interference from Cheyenne Mountain and NORAD. The sound is very close to the 3rd place amps, and I like it very much, being only slightly less smooth in the upper mids with Grado than Pico, and very slightly less micro-detail in ambient cues and complex passages, dropped in rank because of RFI problems)
5. Nuforce Icon Mobile (More forward than D2 Boa and closer to Vivid V1 and 2MOVE in that regard, has good synergy with Westone 3, Klipsch X10, Nuforce NE-7M, Denon C700, ATH-ESW10, D2000, and Edition 9 - sounded nice with HD600 but a bit under powered with HD600 and not worth trying with 600 ohm AKG K240M. With RS-1 occasionally had a similar upper mids coloration like Vivid V1 and sometimes needed to switch to the flats to enjoy them more, so not first choice for Grado but would not avoid the amp because one owns Grados, good midrange detail but not as full and rich sounding as the top tier amps above except with D2000, Edition 9 and Westone 3 which bring that to the table on their own)
5. D2 Boa (Sonic signature slightly warmer than the Pico, and between the D2 Viper with LM6172 in the main amp (warmer) vs THS4032 in the main amp and LM6172 in the ground (cooler). Timbre and tone was good, and lower mids were slightly forward and rich, and highs had slightly less extension than the D2 Viper or Pico and Predator (in that order). The sense of space with live performances was superior with the D2 Viper, Pico and Predator (in that order), and LESS with the Boa at 300 hours of burn-in. However, the Boa did open up and gain more air and ambience on the level of the other top ranked amps by 575 hours of burn-in. Listening to Diana Krall "Girl in the Other Room" (Temptation and other songs) seemed to indicate more of a low mids hump than the other amps, which also caused problems with Pianos and realism on that CD. The problems reproducing this particular CD remained after 575 hours of burn-in, however with other CD's like Jazz at the Pawnshop, Handel Messiah and Tsuyoshi Yamamoto the D2 Boa demonstrated improved transparency and realism with the extra burn-in. And with other music it seems the bass extension is slightly less than the others in the top ranks, but by 575 hours of burn-in (with my RS-1) the 16Hz audio tones on Binks Audio Test CD were clearly audible, and the volume of the 20Hz tone caught me by surprise, while 25Hz was a little disorienting! With over 800 hours the lower mids hump is less noticeable with female and male vocals now, but the middle mids and upper mids now seem to be more withdrawn instead.
6. D1 with rolled opamps (AD797 main/LM6643 buffer/LT6234 DAC - powerful, punchy, energetic, alive - not as bright as AD743/6643/6241. The D2 Boa moved up a little with more burn-in, but it wasn't quite good enough to rise up to a 3rd place tie. So the modded D1 and everything else had to move down a slot. The D1 via USB isn't as good as via optical, which is why it is not tied with the D2 Boa after the Boa improved with extended burn-in. With optical input would beat the Boa easily. 
7. Vivid Technology V1 (very good synergy with HD600 and AKG K240M 600 ohm, nice and fun with Edition 9 and Klipsch Image X10, acceptable with RS-1 IF switching to flats but bowls are not recommended, unacceptable with my Freq Show but not the amp's fault. DAC with slightly more micro-detal than stock D1 via USB or Headstage Lyrix, slightly less than either D2 Viper/Boa or the other amps. The most forward of all the amps. Can be near 3rd place with HD600 and Edition 9 or 2nd with K240M, but 8th place with Grado RS-1 and bowls and last with Freq Show)
8. D2 stock - tied (thin in the middle, neutral with good bass - it was sound signature and power but not level of detail that held it back with the stock opamps.) Sounds good with Freq Show and most of my IEM, fairly good with HD600 and Edition 9 but lacks power, not bad with RS-1 but can't properly drive AKG K240M 600 ohm. Sounds better with re-cabled modded ATH-AD900 than the Boa or V1.
8. Lyrix (good frequency balance, DAC lacking details and air vs the others, but the amp is great with analog input.)
9. D1 stock opamps (put AD823/NE5532/AD8616 back in right before I shipped it back for the 2-3db channel imbalance, too edgy and bright and distant. Very close to 7th as a DAC/Amp because the DAC is so good it makes up for the frequency response issues. Clearly 8th if only using analog input. NOTE - my V1 opamps were from the initial run, and iBasso updated the opamps to V2 in November 07 to make it better than Lyrix.)

 I should note that any of these amps are very pleasing sounding.

Feb 22, 2009 UPDATE - iBasso D10 REVIEW AND REVISED RANKING:

 This 1st post is at the limit - see review in post #2 below: UPDATED 01/04 REVIEW 12 USB DAC amps - Predator, Pico, 2/3MOVE, D3 D2 Viper/Boa D1, Lyrix, MicroAmp, Vivid V1, Nuforce, XM5 - Head-Fi: Covering Headphones, Earphones and Portable Audio

Jan 29, 2010 UPDATE - iBasso D4 IMPRESSIONS, PENDING FULL REVIEW. Will try to post a more complete review in post #2 as soon as I can. At this point, I put the D4 in my top spot for features and sound combined, although if battery life along with a high end DAC is important to you then the D10 still makes more sense.:

 FIRST IMPRESSIONS - http://www.head-fi.org/forums/6146137-post932.html and http://www.head-fi.org/forums/6147003-post934.html
 D4 vs D10 and others, with opamp rolling - http://www.head-fi.org/forums/6264269-post962.html
 More Comparisons - http://www.head-fi.org/forums/6274204-post972.html*_


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## HeadphoneAddict

*UPDATE 7/5/08 - Ranking is at the bottom of POst #2:*

 I rolled my updates into the initial review post, so I can provide one direct link to the entire review.

*UPDATE 12/15/08 - CANNOT FIT MY NUFORCE ICON REVIEW BELOW INTO THE FIRST POST, EXCEEDING 100000 CHARACTER LIMIT - ALL FUTURE REVIEWS WILL BE POSTED IN THIS SECOND POST OF THE ORIGINAL THREAD, AND LINKED FROM THE FIRST POST:*















*HEADPHONES USED:* Westone 3, Klipsch Image X10, Denon C700, Nuforce NE-7M, ATH-ESW10JPN, APS V3 cabled HD600, APS V3 cabled RS-1, APS V3 cabled markl Woodied Denon D2000, and APS V3 cabled Edition 9.

*MUSIC USED:* Michael Knowles "Bink Audio Test CD", Nils Lofgren "Acoustic Live", Arne Domnerus "Antiphone Blues" and "Jazz at the Pawnshop", Infected Mushroom "B.P. Empire", Tord Gustavsen Trio "Being There", Pat Metheny "Day Trip", Tsuyoshi Yamamoto "Autumn in Seattle" and "Smooth Jazz Festival", B.B. King and Eric Clapton "Riding With the King", Shelby Lynn "Just a Little Lovin'", Nora Jones "Not Too Late", Arvo Part "Tabula Rasa", Jack Johnson "Sleep Through the Static" and "In Between Dreams", Elaine Elias "Something for You", Gary Karr "Super Double-bass", Guinea Pig "Kool Cats", Christopher Hogwood "Handel Messiah", Pink Floyd "DSOT", The Beatles "Love", Beck "Sea Change", Diana Krall "Girl in the Other Room", Coldplay "Viva La Vida", and Skillet "Comatose".

*The Nuforce Icon Mobile* is a $99 entry level portable USB DAC/Amp, which has more of a flat form factor that is amenable to being stacked under an iPod without adding too much size to the overall package. It is about the same width and depth as the iBasso D2 Boa, but almost half as tall/thick, so you can almost stack two Icon Mobile on top of each other to achieve the thickness of one D2 Boa. When plugged into the Macbook's USB port the DAC shows up as a "C-Media USB Headphone Set". The Nuforce has some unique features including two headphone out jacks which switch on the power when a headphone plug is inserted, with the jack closer the center being a special jack that works with 4-conductor headsets with stereo headphones and a built-in microphone, like the Nuforce NE-7M iPhone IEM (or other iPhone IEM). This allows the NE-7M to be used as a headset with telephony applications, instant messaging and Skype, and probably for gaming as well. I have not been able to test this telephony feature, but the mic did show up in my Mac's Audio MIDI setup application as the left channel only microphone. The analog input is on the same end of the amp as the two outputs (we'll call it the top end), and all three jacks are slightly recessed by about 0.5 mm along one edge of the amp.

 All my portable headphones worked fine with the slightly recessed jacks, but my full size APS V3 cabled headphones needed an adapter because the 1/8" Neutrik plugs on my APS cables are too wide and would hit the lip of the case around the jacks. Nuforce has informed me that they are already planning to make changes to the case to allow a wider variety of headphone plugs to fit, and they will make it available to early buyers who have problems - but they are not sure yet if it will be possible to use the wider Neutrik 1/8" plugs used by APS, while I know the smaller Neutrik plugs from Qables.com already fit. On one side there is a USB jack for charging and the USB DAC input, a recessed gain switch that cannot not be accidentally changed, and a rotary volume knob. The volume knob is of fairly decent quality, and in low gain it is easily usable with high sensitivity IEM at very low volumes, with channel imbalance only at the very lowest volumes. The amp is totally silent in high gain with the USB music paused and volume turned all the way up.

 To my ears the Nuforce does benefit noticeably from burn-in. When it was right out of the box it struck me as just a little dull and bland when compared to the iBasso D2 boa, and I feared that I would be disappointed with it in the end. I left it running for 6-7 hours and came back to it and the sound was already starting to clean up some. So I left it running via USB with music 24/7 but with a 1 hour break each day, and went back to listen for about an hour each night at 24 hour intervals. By 24-36 hours it was sounding good enough to actually recommend it to others, by 55-60 hours I was posting that it sounded a little forward but was sounding similar to my Meier Headsix which I like more than the D2 Boa. At that time I noted that it was also less edgy than the Vivid V1 but not as powerful. By 80 hours it was becoming more transparent and detailed, and sounded good with all my portable headphones including ATH-ESW10, Westone 3, Image X10, NE-7M and even the Denon C700. By that time I was finding that it is one of those amps that actually makes the C700 smoother and less harsh in the highs, while controlling the bass - one of the things I like about the Headsix and Predator when driving the Denon C700 (sometimes I think the C700 was tuned to sound best right out of the headphone jack of the 5.5G iPod video and 2G Nano). Between 180-200 hours the soundstage had finished opening up. I continued burn-in via USB through 210 hours and then switched to analog input for the remainder of burn-in. I did my once a day listening until it had 230-240 hours on it and felt it seemed to be done changing by 180-200 hours. I did not listen for the last 60-70 hours of burn-in until time to start the review after 300 hours on 12/14.

 During burn-in I was able to determine that the Nuforce amp was above the iBasso D2 Boa and Vivid V1 in most areas of performance and sound (but not all areas), but still below the top tier amps like Pico, Predator and D3 Python. I have not reviewed the Practical Devices XM5 yet, but I am fairly sure it will be among the top tier amps based on the limited listening I have done during burn-in. I do not have the 2MOVE or D2 Viper to compare to in this review, but if I did I would guess it would fall below the 2MOVE or rolled-opamp Viper but above the Stock D2 Viper. So, since I had so many headphones to listen with most of my comparisons were with the D2 Boa and V1 to properly discern the ranking. Although I did also do comparisons with the top amps as well, I just did not spend as much time with them.

 For the first part of my dedicated listening for the review I decided to start with my full size headphones (HD600, RS-1, D2000, Edition 9) since I had already done a fair bit of listening with my portable headphones and IEM during burn-in, and was already enjoying the amp with them. Typically the Nuforce could be turned up all the way to 100% volume with HD600 without clipping. And, it would play to decent volumes at that setting but not more than mildly or moderately loud - max volume of the Nuforce Icon Mobile was still about 2-3 db below D2 Boa, which could be turned to about 3:30 o'clock before clipping in high gain (max is 4:30). On the other hand, unlike with the HD600, the Nuforce could drive the Grado RS-1 and Denon D2000 at max volume MUCH much louder than I would ever care to listen to music. Typically I could sweep the side scrolling rotary volume knob 4 times to go from from zero volume to 100% volume. With the Nuforce in high gain with anything other than HD600 I would normally listen with the volume rotated up only 1/2 of the way to max. With the volume turned 3/4 of the way up it was quite loud with RS-1 and D2000, and full volume was uncomfortable and likely damaging. With RS-1 there was some clipping starting to creep in as I got very close to max volume at the end of the dial with the RS-1, but it was more of a soft clipping with less dynamics and some fuzzyness to the sound. The clipping was even better/softer with the D2000 at max volume, and with some material it was not even there. I could never explore the upper volume limits with my IEM without worsening my chronic tinnitus, so I didn't try. Suffice it to say the Nuforce will go loud enough with any of my IEM. So, to summarize, the Pico, D3, V1, Micro Stack and XM5 are all more powerful with HD600 than the D2 Boa which slightly edged out the Nuforce, but with any portable earphone or low impedance full size headphone the Nuforce has plenty of power to go around.

 With the Nuforce the bass is fairly strong with all the low impedance phones, but with HD600 pushed to high volumes the bass was not quite as good as the D2 Boa, especially as the volumes would get closer to max output. Bass with infected mushroom and HD600 was stronger at normal volumes but not impressive like with the lower impedance phones. It was only a problem with HD600 in which I found the bass pulling back or thinning out when the amp is pushed hard (similar to the Meier Headfive desktop amp when pushed hard with Grados). So like the D2 Boa, the Nuforce was not optimal with high impedance phones, although it still drives the HD600 better than the headphone out of my Macbook. Better portable amps from my review to drive the HD600 better include the Pico and Vivid V1 or D3 Python or XM5 as the most powerful, followed by the Predator and D2 Boa, and then the Nuforce. However, with lower impedance headphones like my portable headphones and RS-1, D2000 and Edition 9, the Nuforce really came into it's element and it became more dynamic and powerful sounding. The D2000 and Edition 9 are very enjoyable with the Nuforce, and the bass is powerful enough to tickle my eardrums and damage my hearing if I wish, passing up the RS-1's bass by a noticeable margin too (unless I switch to flat pads). With test tones on the HD600 the Nuforce sounded strong to 31Hz, and was maybe 3-4db down at 25Hz but then rolled off below that. But I found that the 20-25Hz notes were stronger with the low impedance phones than with the 300 ohm HD600, and the NE-7M actually went deeper than most of my full size headphones (16Hz). The Pico, Predator, D3 Python and XM5 all had more powerful and present or pervasive bass, but you wouldn't know the Nuforce is lacking anything but for the comparison with the top tier amps. It's all relative, as listening to the Nuforce on its own merits did not make me wish for bass boost or anything like that. Bass was fairly well controlled as well, although pushing the amp to it's limits at the highest volumes the IEM, D2000 or Edition 9 the bass was just starting to get a little loose. Only with the HD600 did it start to fade at higher volume levels. The ESW10 bass was lighter and more along the lines of the RS-1 (ESW10 is kinda like a closed RS-1) and just a little more reserved with the Nuforce than with the top tier amps. This is not a bass-thin amp, it's just that some others have more bass punch. But, pair it with the Westone 3, NE-7M with Complys tips, D2000 or Edition 9 and the bass is rocking.

 The Mids of the Nuforce tend to be more forward like the Meier Amps (Headsix and 2MOVE) or the Vivid V1. I have always felt that Pat Metheney "Day Trip" is recorded with a little too much energy in the mids with the electric guitar (granted that is the "star of the show"), so switching to the D2 Boa or other amps usually helps pull the guitar back a little. Still, this particular recording was listenable with the Nuforce, although it was much better if I was using the Westone 3, NE-7M, C700, D2000 or RS-1 with bowls than the HD600 or Edition 9 with it. With most music I appreciated the more forward mids of the Nuforce with the D2000, as I feel the D2000 are still slightly recessed in the mids despite the wood cups and earpad mods that I have done which also helped a bit. I haven't been using my RS-1 much lately, as I tend to prefer my stats and my modded D2000, Edition 9, or ESW10 more. The RS-1 did not sound bad with the Nuforce, but with bowl pads I sometimes (not always) felt there was a similar but less prominent upper mid coloration with Grados, like the Vivid V1 amp demonstrated earlier in the review. My other headphones did not have this issue with the mids, and I still preferred bowls with the Grados for their improvement in soundstage through the Nuforce. I would not rule out the Nuforce with Grados as it is still better than the V1 with them, and often better than the D2 Boa as well - where sometimes the D2 Boa's mids felt slightly sucked out with the RS-1 after listening to the RS-1 with the Nuforce for a while and got used to it. I still felt the top tier amps were warmer and richer in the mids than the Nuforce, D2 Boa or V1, and the D2 Boa sounds like an artificial warmth at times, with slightly boosted upper bass and lower mids. But what I liked most about the Nuforce mids was the clarity and very little coloration.

 In general I felt that the forward mids of the Nuforce helped improve the audibility of the midrange detail, and music became more engaging than with the D2 Boa (similar to the Headsix and 2MOVE). This was one of the things that attracted me to the 2MOVE that I borrowed a while back. Female vocals like Shelby Lynn, Nora Jones, Elaine Elias and Jane Monheit don't have the bass bleed into the lower mids a little, like with the Boa, so they sound more open and natural most of the time (less boomy or boxy or close mic'd sounding). The D2 Boa with Westone 3 was the worst offender in that regard. Nora Jones's vocals in "Not Too Late" and on Herbie Hancock "The River" are more present and engaging with the Nuforce. With the Boa, Nora Jones and Jane Monheit's vocals do sound better than did Shelby Lynn or Diana Krall on the Boa, but I liked the Nuforce a little better with all of them. On Elaine Elias "Something for You" I got caught up in the music better, and forget that I am doing a review, so it seems little more involving as well. The Boa still acquitted itself well with Elaine Elias during the instrumental jazz parts, but lost the illusion when the vocals would come in.

 I did enjoy pianos with the Nuforce, but the Nuforce maybe smoothes out the piano a little more than the other amps, making it more polite. Despite that, it still did a nice job with piano and guitar and vocals in B.B. King and Eric Clapton "Riding With the King". Nils Lofgren "Acoustic Live" was crisp and detailed and airy but not as spacious as the top tier amps listed above. And the Nuforce also seems good with unamplified acoustic guitar as well, like with Jack Johnson and Andy Mckee or Govi. In Tsuyoshi Yamamoto "Smooth Jazz Festival" during "Somewhere Over the Rainbow" the sax is more intimate and engaging with the Nuforce, but the Boa has little stronger bass response from the plucked string bass. However with the D2 Boa the sax sounds thinner in the middle and more upturned at the ends of the frequency spectrum. With Gary Karr "Super double bass" this issue on the D2 Boa also caused the bass fiddle to seem slightly more hollow or lacking than with the Nuforce, especially when listening with the D2000 but also with the HD600 and others. This recessed mids of the D2 Boa was still better than with the stock D2 Viper last time I compared them. These slightly tipped up ends of the frequency spectrum or the recessed mids (however you look at it) make the D2 Boa a little better for low volume listening with the HD600, but very quiet listening was among the few instances where I would grab the D2 Boa over the Nuforce. On the other hand, the Nuforce with D2000 was still better for low volume listening than D2 Boa with HD600.

 Treble on the Nuforce is smooth but slightly recessed with a variety of headphones. With my D2000, Westone 3 and ESW10 the Nuforce does not accentuate sibilance that I usually hear in my Diana Krall "Girl in the Other Room" CD, which is my test CD for sibilance since it seems to be mastered with that in there. Switching to the Grado RS-1 I found there was less sibilance through the Nuforce than with my D2 Boa. The slightly laid back treble made the Nuforce amp more forgiving of some music. With the D2000 I actually listened to the entire Diana Krall CD with the Nuforce as I typed my review, without thinking about the sibilance. With Tord Gustavsen Trio's song Karmosin off the "Being There" CD, this is a good test of cymbals as they are lightly and hauntingly tapped during the intro drums and piano, and I did not feel there was a lack of treble as the ring of the cymbals would hang in the air properly with a nice slow decay.

 I have rarely bothered to test high frequency extension, but decided to start doing that and tested all of the amps tonight, along with the Nuforce using Michael Knowles "Bink Audio Test CD". With treble test tones on the Nuforce I used the D2000 which for me have better treble extension than my HD600 or most IEM. There I found a problem - with the Nuforce while at 16Khz I was getting a strange harmonic at exactly 4Khz that was louder than the actual 16Khz tone. I've had this problem with another USB DAC amp before, but I cannot recall which one now (might have been the Lyrix or D1). This 4Khz artifact did not happen with the D2 Boa via USB which was still going strong at 16Khz, or with the Nuforce via analog input. With music I was unable to hear any artifacts like with the test tone. For me, 16Khz is the practical limit of my hearing as I can't hear the 20Khz tone unless I crank an amp like the D2 to 3:30 o'clock or 80-90% of max. While I could hear 20Khz with the D2 Boa at full volume, cranking the Nuforce volume at 20Khz was inaudible. Via analog input on the Nuforce the 20Khz test tone was still inaudible to me, although it was still barely audible if I plugged the headphones directly into the Macbook. The only other amps that would allow me hear the 20Khz test tone at high volume was the Pico and Predator, although I could hear it louder with the Pico. I found that in doing this test that the V1, XM5 and D3 were all quite noisy in the background at high volumes past 3 o'clock with the 20Khz test tone, so I could not hear the tone over the noise. The Nuforce had just a tiny bit of noise at max volume hooked up via USB, and the Pico and Predator were silent. The D2 Boa background noise was silent and allowed me to hear the 20Khz tone. After I accidentally hit my ears full volume with a 440Hz piano note, I could not do further testing of the highs until my ears recovered.

 The Nuforce combines a forward soundstage with decent air and ambience, although like the 2MOVE it puts the listener in a more intimate position while making the venue seem a little smaller. With the D2 Boa and Arvo Part "Tabula Rasa" the image is a little more spread out and deeper but less precise than with the Nuforce. With Gary Karr "Super Double-bass" the imaging was similarly a little more focused and the bass fiddle more centered with Nuforce (almost like a slight hint of crossfeed), while with the same music on the D2 Boa the bass fiddle sounded a little more spread out and hard to pinpoint. Soundstage is obviously better with the HD600 and D2000 than Westone 3 or ESW10 and RS-1. But even with those headphones, when comparing the Nuforce soundstage to the Pico or D3 and Predator the Nuforce soundstage seems flatter and more 2D, with a wide but not as deep soundstage. Air and ambience with the Nuforce was about the same as my D2 Boa, but with the Boa placing the listener a little farther from the stage than Nuforce or Vivid Audio V1. Switching from the Nuforce to the Pico and D3 (or even Predator) it was clear that the top tier amps are more open and spacious, with more micro-detail and are even more rich sounding and engaging. The difference in sound between the Nuforce and the top three on hand (Predator, Pico and D3) is bigger than it is between Nuforce and D2 Boa or V1, confirming that the D2 Boa and Vivid V1 are it's main competitors in sound and price range. The Predator is in between the forwardness of the Nuforce/V1 and Pico/D3, but still maintains a better soundstage, warmth and richness. The degree of detail of the Nuforce DAC seems to be on par with the DAC in the 2MOVE and Predator, but below that of the Pico and iBasso D2/D3 amps. I have not reviewed the XM5 that is burning-in right now, so I really cannot comment on soundstage or micro-detail yet.

 The last area I looked at was the RFI interference problems that have cropped up the past 2 months since I got an iPhone 3G. I found the D3 to be the most susceptible to iPhone BUZZ from 3-4 feet away, followed by the D2 Viper and the D2 Boa from 1-2 feet away, then the Predator/Pico/Nuforce which could be within 6-9" of the iPhone. With an EM blocking card from Quick Bridge Solutions - EM Shield for iPhone I can stack any of the amps under the iPhone except for the D3 Python which still needs to be 6-9" away. The only big problem I have run into is that "static discharge" makes the amp go nuts - so don't shuffle across the carpet and then touch the amp or headphones or laptop or all kinds of nasty noises will emanate from the headphones till you unplug the headphones to switch the amp off.

 ADDENDUM: While the Nuforce via USB is slightly brighter and slightly more forward than the 3MOVE with slightly less bass, with analog input it does sound a little brighter and a little more forward and aggressive than with USB input. Keep that in mind when pairing with bright headphones. For example, I can use the Nuforce via USB just fine with Phonak Audeo IEM with black filters, but via analog input and grey filters it can be too bright.

*RANKING:* Post #2 exceeds 100,000 characters with this obsolete ranking left in place - please see newer ranking below: In summary, this amp ranks in the middle of the pack, with better USB performance than D1 or Lyrix, but more colorations than those others in the amp section.


*UPDATE 01/04/09 - XM5 USB DAC Amp by Practical Devices Corporation *






 I used my usual playlist of lossless songs and typical rotation of headphones with the XM5, and I really like the XM5 - the quality of sound it puts out deserves the $245-$325 that it sells for (depending on options like optional BUF634, or AD8397 kit, or Li rechargable vs Alkaline). Based on the sound, I assume this dual mono amp has to be a major upgrade from the XM4, not just an evolution. It comes stock with a pair of OPA134 opamps, which are single channel opamps, and it has a pair of buffer sockets for improved current output by using optional BUF634 chips, or another opamp like AD8397 in the buffers. It come standard with using a 9v alkaline battery (50 hours), and a charging circuit for rechargables is optional (40 hours).

 And the number of features it has makes my head spin. I like the 1-3-6 hours timer for falling asleep to music, similar to my old Xin super macro III but more precise, the battery voltage display (# of LED flashes) comes in handy, and I've already dimmed the LED. Crossfeed as set by default has a more profound effect than Micro Amp and Meier, but it is adjustable from near full stereo all the way to mono - so I need to spend some time with that other than at the factory setting. It also has an input selector on back, 6dB bass and 3dB treble boost, high/lo gain, LED flashlight function and LED dimmer funtion, plus a 75 ohm P-to-S switch yet. It also comes with a USB cable, velcro dots, stick on feet, and an allen hex key to open it and roll opamps or swap out batteries. I was disappointed that it wont brush or whiten my teeth yet.

 When I first received it I left it on 24/7 for burn-in and I got between 30-40 hours on the Li rechargable the first time around - it was still playing at 30 hours (6.5v) when I went to bed and when I woke up 10 hours later the battery was drained. At full charge the battery meter says it is 8.4 - 8.5 volts (varies), so it dropped about 1v per 15 hours. They claim battery life drops from 40 hours to 30 hours on rechargable with the extra BUF634 chips, but I think it may be good for up to 35 hours at normal low-medium volume levels. Louder volumes may result in it being drained by 30 hours. This still doubles the battery life vs D2 Viper and 30% more than Pico, but is about the same as D2 Boa - while still half what the Predator does, it also seems to have more output power than Predator. I gave the XM5 300 hours of burn-in, although it didn't really change much during that time. I suppose the recommended 8 hours is right.

 I posted a couple of questions to Practical Devices, and the Q&A is below:

 QUESTION: How much burn-in does it need?

 REPLY: 8 hours.

 QUESTION: Can any opamp be used as a buffer, or are the buffer sockets limited to buf634 only? I don't think others would be as good as the buf634.
 REPLY: I'm going to define the following: "Semi-Standard Singlechannel OpAmp Pinout" ("SSSOAP") - which is what the OPA134 has, as well as a zillion other single-channel 8-pin opamp chips (pin2 = "opamp input-", pin3="opamp input+", pin4="negative supply", pin6=output, pin7="positive supply"). The BUF634 sockets on the XM5 can handle anything with a SSSOAP; any SSSOAP chip you stick in a buffer socket will be configured as a non-inverting follower (with Gain=1x, or 0 dB). So yes, you can put other chips in the buffer sockets - although I haven't tried this much, YMMV.

 QUESTION: Do I need to do the copper bridge if I try the AD8397, or can the buf634 stay? I know the AD8397 is a very high output opamp and doesn't really need buffers, but we used LMH6655 in the iBasso D1 with AD8397 to smooth it out. I often don't like opening up an amp to roll opamps if the stock sound is good enough to make me happy, and I suspect this will sound good enough that I will feel lazy about rolling...\

 REPLY: Yes, you can leave the BUF634s in when using the AD8397. But like you said the AD8397 already contains (very strong) output buffering, so having another set of buffers in series won't buy you much of anything. I've never actually tried this AD8397+BUF634 configuration myself; but if you uncover a great discovery, let me know.

 I don't think I would like the AD8397 more than the current configuration as a dual mono, but I probably have to give it a try soon, along with the OPA627 and AD743. It doesn't seem to me to need much improvement right now though.

*I first tried the XM5 with my IEM.* The volume pot is very nice and allows minute adjustments at low volumes with minimal channel imbalance at the bottom range. I found it sounds great with my Livewires, SE530 in custom shell, IM716 at 33 ohm, NE-7M and Westone 3, which were the IEM that I started burn-in with, and the amp is a good match for these portable headphones. It even seems to improve the sound of my Denon C700 and makes them enjoyable again. With bass boost flipped on the amp is also very good with Nuforce NE-8. It was slightly bright with my Livewires and SE530 customs at first, but my brain adjusted to it pretty quickly and then it was fine.

*I also tried the XM5 with my Freq Show triple driver customs* which don't get much use since I got them, and SURPRISE, the XM5 is the first amp to really make the Freq Show sound very good. I don't know why, but they are a match made in heaven and I've been looking for something to make the Freq Show sound as good as my Livewires for months. Typically my Freq are not used much because I feel they lack treble extension and seem to emphasize a portion of the lower mids that makes pianos or other instruments resonate in my right ear canal like a "roaring crowd". Some amps make the "roaring" better or worse but never gone. Previously the modded D2 Viper and Pico were the champs with these IEM because they would improve the treble extension some and not exacerbate the "roar", but I don't have any problems at all with Freq out of the XM5 now either. I am excited about getting to know the Freq better now.

 While I did not find any of my IEM that did not get along with the XM5, with my Macbook and a USB DAC I tend to gravitate towards full size headphones for reasons of comfort and less need for isolation, so I approached the full size cans later in my review, having nothing bad to say about it's performance with IEM. In a comparison I did early on in the process *I started with the ATH-ESW10JPN as my first full size can*. I found they were very good with the XM5, as well as Predator, Nuforce Icon Mobile - plus I threw in the TTVJ portable Millett hybrid as someone requested, using the Headstage USB DAC cable on my Macbook to make it a DAC/amp.

 In a sense the TTVJ, 3MOVE and XM5 are similar to the Nuforce in it's forwardness and presentation - but the TTVJ and XM5 add to it with a wider soundstage, more powerful bass and presence, and a warmer richer more refined sound overall. Although there is no lack of treble or darkness, the Headstage DAC cable/TTVJ combo is also slightly less detailed than the Nuforce, XM5, 3MOVE or Predator - while with the iMod as the source their level of detail is closer. I still prefer the Millett combo a good bit more than the Nuforce, but it's a $450 amp + $40 DAC vs a $99 DAC amp combo, so it's more of an apples vs oranges kinda thing. However, the XM5 compared to the TTVJ (and Predator) is more similar in refinement, warmth and richness of the TTVJ and Predator than the Nuforce, but with smaller price than TTVJ or Predator, and a built-in DAC so it's better suited to traveling.

 With the ESW10, the XM5 is almost a SS version of the TTVJ Millett's sound and power, but I can tell there is a slight difference in tonality. For those that want a more romantic euphonic or lush sound with ESW10 or Grados the TTVJ is excellent, but obviously there are SS amps like the XM5 that can come close, while doing it with more detail and battery life. The mids with the XM5 and ESW10 are simply delicious as well. Incidentally, with the ESW10 I am only using the XM5 or TTVJ at 10-11 o'clock on the volume knob (XM5 low gain, Predator medium gain at 12 o'clock). I could be happy with just the XM5 and ESW10 for a long time.

 I then spent most of the Sunday before my Christmas vacation using *the XM5 with Macbook and Denon D2000 (woodied re-cabled)* and loving it. The bass was tight and well controlled with almost everything I listened to, with a few exceptions. I tried some new music and with Yo-Yo Ma "Sounds of Joy and Peace" song no. 2 with Diana Krall, the string bass was a little boomy and sloppy but it became much better with 75ohm switch set to on. Using the 75ohm switch is the only instance in which the D2000 needed the XM5 in high gain, and the only instance in which I did not think it controlled the bass well. This was more of a fault of the music rather than the amp's fault. The 75 ohm was useful to remedy this when I wouldn't have that option with other amps.

 With female vocals like Nora Jones, Diana Krall, Elaine Elias, and Shelby Lynn the XM5 did not emphasize any portion of the vocals, making them sound natural. However, the D2000 mids are slightly recessed when A/B with Predator or 3MOVE, and are closer to the mids of the Pico. With the D2000 the more forward mids of the Predator and 3MOVE are more welcome. With more forward phones like ESW10JPN and HD600 the smooth mids of the XM5 can be better appreciated. The treble with D2000 was good, and not grating or etched, nor sibilant. With Bink Audio test CD from Michael Knowles I was able to hear the 20,000Hz tone with the volume turned up on the 3MOVE, but as stated in the previous Nuforce review I cannot hear it in the XM5 (yes to 16Khz without having to max the volume).

 With my old standard, Tsuyoshi Yamamoto "Smooth Jazz Festival" Somewhere over the Rainbow, I found the saxophone with XM5 and D2000 to be just right with that combo of breathiness, chestiness and reediness in the right proportions. The string bass was crisp and well controlled as well. With "Misty" I did not find the piano strikes to be piercing at all, and the speed was good. With other jazz such as Elaine Elias "Something for You", and McCoy Tyner "New York Reunion, I could really get into the music and forget to work on the review, but switching to the Pico or Predator when I come out of my trance shows an little extra layer of detail and transparency in those amps, although the Pico is still not quite as euphonic as the XM5 and Predator (or TTVJ/3MOVE). It's easy to get caught up in the music with this amp as it is so musical, and one has to be reminded every once in a while that the sound can be even better (same thing happens when I switch from portable amps to my WA6 maxed or Single Power Square Wave XL).

 With classical music like Arvo Part "Tabula Rasa" and D2000 I thought the XM5 was similar to the 3MOVE, coming in just behind the Predator but with Pico on top due to it's huge spacious soundstage. The XM5 DAC is nicely detailed and like the 3MOVE, but it seems with classical music that the XM5 puts you in the 2nd row of the auditorium venue vs the 3MOVE which puts you on the 1st row instead. This goes against my auditory memory where I would have said the MOVE puts you on the conductor's podium, but it's not as forward as I remembered after all (although with HD600 it is closer to the podium). Imaging and focus was good however, so instruments didn't seem to come from all over the auditorium like the D2 Boa. Soundstage is not as deep as the Pico or Predator, but was nice and wide like the 3MOVE.

 I also found that one does NOT need high gain on XM5 for D2000, as it has plenty of driving power! With D2000 at good volume levels the XM5 is in low gain at 11 o'clock while the Predator is in medium gain at 11:00 o'clock for similar volumes, and TTVJ has a fixed gain and was at 11 o'clock. With HD600 the Predator is in medium gain at 3 o'clock to reach similar volumes, while the volume of XM5 is at 3 o'clock in low gain (or XM5 at 1 o'clock in high gain). The 3MOVE in high current mode and Pico in high gain are also at 1 o'clock like XM5 in high gain. Any of these amps can produce ear-drum tickling volume levels with D2000 and Edition 9. *And speaking of Edition 9*, the XM5 was just a little better with them than it was with the Denon, and I preferred it over the 3MOVE with these phones as it was closer to the Predator with them. Heaven on earth. I just don't do a lot of reviews with the Edition 9 because so few people have them or have heard them. I actually thought the XM5 was a little better controlled with them than the TTVJ which has a similar sound signature.

*Moving on to the HD600* I started with some Nils Lofgren "Acoustic Life". The XM5 gives off a good feeling of spaciousness with a large venue musical program. With this music I still found the Predator most engaging and slightly more forward than XM5, but the 3MOVE is most forward of all and sometimes a better match for the D2000 than the HD600. With HD600 the XM5 soundstage size is somewhere between the Pico and Predator, and slightly larger or farther back than Predator and 3MOVE. But the XM5 is still not quite as spacious or smooth as Pico due to less micro-detail from the DAC and a slightly more forward sound than the Pico, making it closer to the soundstage of the Predator. Never was the soundstage lacking unless compared to my WA6 or Single Power desktop amps, but it is at least as good as my EF1. I also found the XM5 to put out more bass and volume than Predator with HD600, but it was also not as smooth as Predator either and was closer to the 3MOVE in that regard. In Tsuyoshi Yamamoto "Autumn in Seattle" song Misty, the XM5 with HD600 seems slightly withdrawn in the lower treble of the cymbals vs Predator, and piano had slightly less bite in the upper mids - both areas where the Predator seems to be a little more forward. With HD600 and the song "Misty" listed above, the XM5 is more transparent with clearer soundstage vs 3MOVE, but with the D2000 I preferred the 3MOVE for it's ability to bring out the D2000 midrange detail. With McCoy Tyner Quartet "New York Reunion", the XM5 gives a better sense of the venue than the 3MOVE. While the Pico is less forward and still more detailed and smoother sounding, it is sometimes less engaging than the XM5.

 With the BUF634 it seems to drive the HD600 almost as well as the Pico in terms of impact and bass and control, with only slightly less volume when cranked up. With infected Mushroom max volume of Pico before clipping was at about 3 o'clock high gain, while XM5 at 1:30 - 2:00 o'clock was just below clipping and maybe 1-2db less volume than Pico before clipping (battery was down to 8v). This is already quite loud, but not painful. The 3MOVE at 4 o'clock before clipping was clearly 1-2db louder than the Pico, and able to just about match the V1 performance with HD600. Not only was the 3MOVE more powerful than Predator, Pico or XM5, it maintained a more balanced frequency response at extremely high volumes, like the V1. I should mention that these are not volumes I typically listen to music, and so this issue would almost never come up. With James Taylor "Steamroller Blues" off the greatest hits, the XM5 and Pico were able to come closer to the night club volumes than the Predator with HD600, making the Predator almost sound thin when pushed too hard 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The XM5 was still 1-2db behind the Pico, while the 3MOVE was again the clear leader in max dB with HD600 alongside the V1. This volume capability is program specific, as switching to the CD "Jazz at the Pawnshop" the XM5 was able at 3 o'clock to easily match the loud volume of the 3MOVE at 100% at 5 o'clock and get closer to live club volume levels with HD600. I was also impressed with the transparency of the XM5 with this particular CD as well.

 I did some *listening with my Grado RS-1* and most of my playlist, and the XM5 and Grado get along well. The Yo-Yo Ma song with Diana Krall that had some uncontrolled string-bass with the D2000 was better with the RS-1 and enjoyable. I tried the RS-1 with the Predator on this song but instead the mids became too forward vs the XM5. I just can't make heads nor tails of this song, as it always seems to have something wrong depending on the amp or headphone, but the RS-1 and XM5 finally got it right. The RS-1 with XM5 and rock like Coldplay Viva La Vida perform well, with minimal midrange congestion that I sometimes hear with modern rock when it gets a little busy. Sometimes I feel the RS-1 could use more bass with portable amps and I switch to flats, but then miss the bigger soundstage of the bowls; but with the XM5 I did not find the RS-1 lack bass. There are no warnings with using the XM5 with Grado, like I had with the V1 and Grados.

*EXTRA SWITCHES and FEATURES:*

*Crossfeed:* On FIM Audio Reference III - The Super Extended Resolution Sound Of TBM, Isao Suzuki Quartet, "My One And Only Love" has an excessively wide stage, with a guitar all the way to the left and string bass to far to the right. "I Can't Get Started" has the piano only on the left and string bass only on the right, and Mari Nakamoto "Georgia on my Mind" has string bass far left and jazz guitar far right - the XM5 crossfeed helps with the soundstage on these extreme left right spread recordings, although it is really only a stereo channel mix/blend control. The songs are almost unlistenable on headphones without this, being clearly designed for speakers. The XM5 makes the song listenable; nevertheless, I thought the 3MOVE crossfeed did an even better job, although subtle and not adjustable.

 Imagine the soundstage stretched from one ear to the other, from 9 o'clock on the left to 3 o'clock on the right. In in the song "Georgia" mentioned above, the string bass in the intro is SO FAR to the left side that the right ear feels like it has noise canceling turned on, and you get that imaginary "pressure" on your right ear. Using the XM5 "crossfeed" simply compresses the width of the soundstage, bringing instruments closer and making it narrower but still spanning 9-3 while filing in the hole in the center. With the XM5 crossfeed the string bass moves in closer to the ear like 5 feet away, but stays at 9 o'clock. On the other hand, the 3MOVE crossfeed keeps a very wide soundstage but removes the sense of extreme left-right spread instruments just a bit. So, with the 3MOVE crossfeed turned on the string bass is still about 8 feet away but the image of the string bass moves from 9 o'clock to 10 o'clock and the "pressure" on the right ear is gone. This is certainly more speaker like to me.

*DAC:* The amp is better than the DAC, just like the Predator, and as an amp it rivals some desktop amps to a point. In my case I think the amp sounds warm. The XM5 reminds me of a tube hybrid like my TTVJ portable Millet. There are differences in their sound, but the Predator, XM5 and TTVJ portable Millett hybrid sound like they are from the same family; but while the XM5 and TTVJ could be brothers, the Predator is the cousin. Likewise, the Pico, D3 and D2 Viper with LM4562/LM6172 sound like they are in the same family. The Nuforce sounds like it is in the Meier Family with Headsix and 2MOVE.

 I also think the DAC is on the level of the DAC in the Predator and 2MOVE and it's a little more detailed and spacious than Headstage Lyrix (or Headstage DAC cable). It is actually the same Japanese PCM2702E that comes in the 2MOVE and 3MOVE. The Nuforce and XM5 USB DAC seem to have a good level of detail as well, despite the lack of a high technology DAC circuit like a USB receiver chip > I2S > Wolfson WM8740, and are are at least as good as the 2MOVE and Predator DAC (i.e. better than Headstage DAC). However, using an iMod as source, or Micro DAC as DAC or Pico as DAC/Preamp to feed the XM5 does provide the upgrade in sound one expects. Yet the internal DAC is still better than the one built into my Macbook or iMac and I think it is pretty good vs headphone out of the Macbook or iPod.

*Bass and Treble Boost* The bass and treble boost are much cleaner than using the iPod EQ, and probably on the same level as the iTunes EQ - although sometimes the bass boost is too much and other times just right, depending on the headphone. For example - with Nuforce NE-8 the bass boost is just right, and also good with the RS-1 and MS-1, but with HD600 it is just a little more than I'd like but not too much, and with D2000 or Edition 9 it is ridiculous/useless being too much. The treble boost is more subtle, and probably would have used it with my Klipsch Image X10, stock SE530, SA-6 or q-JAYS, but otherwise I didn't really need it. I did enjoy it with my HD600 at times, to get just a little more sparkle out of them.

*Gain:* The amp in low gain using the USB DAC or iMod to feed it can drive anything from Livewires low impedance high sensitivity IEM to HD600, and like the 3MOVE and TTVJ portable Millett it could go without the gain switch. However, when I tried the iBasso D3 line out from the D3 DAC to feed the XM5 (ALO cryo silver x mini-mini) I found high gain to be quite useful, because the D3 doesn't put out a lot of voltage from line out (I guess it is direct from the DAC chip without opamps or buffering). Doing this, I found the D3 DAC to be more detailed and spacious, but the sound was less dynamic than feeding the XM5 from my Headroom Micro DAC which I like better.

*75 ohm P-S Switch:* Kicking this in did drop the volume a bit, and the knob had to be turned up to accommodate the drop. This did clean up the bass on a couple of songs with the D2000 that had been mastered poorly. I did not like it with my Livewires (reportedly they do better with only 50 ohms) but it did help the KSC35 sound a little more refined.

*Input Selector:* The nice thing about the XM5 is that like the Predator you can keep your analog source and USB plugged into the amp at the same time, and manually switch between the two sources, while the other amps automatically switch to USB input when plugged into USB.

*SUMMARY:* Overall I find the sound to be a cross between the performance of the 3MOVE and Predator rather than Pico, due to the lesser DAC performance, while closer to the Pico in soundstage - an interesting combination. While I felt the D3 Python was closer to a Pico clone, I would not confuse the XM5 sound with the Pico. However, many times when I thought I was listening to the Predator or 3MOVE I then looked and saw that I was listening to the XM5, and visa versa. Like I said, they sound like cousins (with the TTVJ being the XM5's brother). However, switching to the Predator or 3MOVE made it clear that the amps don't sound the same, just related. With HD600 however, saxophones are different in tonality, but I can't put my finger on it exactly - it's almost like with the Sax on XM5 the high notes sound slightly closer than the low notes.

 I previously guessed that from my memory of how the 2MOVE sounded that I would likely prefer this XM5 over the 2MOVE, but I didn't have Skylab's 2MOVE to compare to anymore. I felt this was probably going to be in the top 3 so far, right below the Pico and Predator. Well, I picked up a B-stock 3MOVE with some hours already on it and I did compare them, and I think they should be ranked similarly. Also, I still like the mids of the XM5 and 3MOVE a little more than the Pico, even if I like the Pico soundstage and micro-detail a little more. After playing with the 3MOVE and XM5 I am likely going to be selling my D3 Python soon after this review, since I can't deal with the RFI from NORAD behind my house and Buzz from my iPhone - otherwise the D3 is a great amp. The Nuforce Icon has me thinking about selling my D2 Boa as well, since I have too many portable amps again (after selling the D1, Lyrix, Caffeine and D2 Viper). But I don't plan to let the XM5 or 3MOVE go anywhere, and they will have to live in harmony with my Predator and Pico for a while.

*RANKING:* Please see newer ranking below, as the old ranking caused this post to exceed 100,000 characters and could not be saved. I placed the XM5 on a similar level with the 3MOVE, in the top tier.


*Feb 22, 2009 UPDATE - iBasso D10 REVIEW AND REVISED RANKING*:

 The iBasso D10 is an evolutionary product that takes the best of what they have had to offer over the past year and a half, and all crammed into one little box. My first amp from them was the D1 back at the end of August 2007, which basically took the chipset of the Headroom Micro Stack (separate DAC and Amp) and put it all into one package at a fraction of the size. Yet it was still too big for true portable use. I enjoyed that amp and moved it to my bedside where I could use it as a DAC for my tube amp. And with new opamps it was a real contender, but only via optical (or coax) input and not as good via USB. With stock opamps the original D1 probably could be described as poor via analog input, although significantly improved with a set of AD743 or AD797 in the main amp (on a 2:1 adapter) with AD8397 or LMH6643 as buffers, and AD8656 or LT6234 in the DAC section. Because the Headroom Micro DAC has a much better sounding USB DAC, and better sounding line out, I traded my D1 for some electrostatic equipment and bought a Headroom to replace it. Something I regretted later because of the D1 high quality optical DAC and smaller size.

 After the success of the D1 iBasso introduced the D2 Viper which was a limited run of 100 amps with socketed opamps so that the main opamp and ground channel opamp could be changed to tune the sound. It's main feature was an improved size and superior USB DAC section, using I2S between the USB receiver and DAC, and upgrading the DAC chip from the CS4398 to the Wolfson WM8740 (like the Pico). It shipped with an LT1364 in main amp and NE5532 in ground, and while it outperformed the stock D1 it didn't outperform the "rolled" D1. However, changing the opamps to LM6172 main and THS4032 ground turned it into a giant-killer, and opamp combos to mimic the Predator and the Pico were found as well. Co-developed at the same time as the D2 Viper was the D2 Boa that was meant to be the same amp but smaller, and it eliminated the socketed opamps due to size constraints. I have suspected that if not for the insistence of several head-fi members that the D2 Viper may have never made it to production, with the D2 Boa being the final product instead. While the Viper ran at 12v for only about 15 hours, the Boa runs on 5v for about 35-40 hours and could be charged by the USB Port. The sound was better than the stock D2 Viper, but not up to the level of the D2 Viper after it received new opamps.

 The D3 was developed to fill the spot in sound quality left vacant by the discontinued D2 Viper, including the need for more power than the 5v in the Boa, and the ability to swap batteries by frequent travelers - it runs on 7.5v with 5xAAA replaceable batteries. The D3 sounds much better than the D2 Boa, but still not quite as good as the D2 Viper with the right opamps. A nice new feature was the ability to use it as a DAC with line-out only and no batteries needed, like the 2MOVE and 3MOVE when used as a DAC/amp without batteries. Unfortunately the D3 headphone out was still better than the line-out; but it could be used as a DAC preamp with good results, at the expense of using up the batteries. It's biggest problem to me was the susceptibility to RFI from the iPhone. Still, for 2/5 of the cost of a Pico or Predator it was a good bang for the buck if one wanted a DAC/amp with bigger soundstage and more detailed DAC than the 3MOVE, despite a less powerful and slightly less refined amp section.

 In the meantime, for reasons unknown to me the D1 was discontinued after the D2 Boa was released, and that left a gap in the product line in my eyes. I was excited to hear that a new upgraded and smaller version of the D1 was being developed, and when it was released I ordered the same day it was up on the website. This is an amp that is only 1/2" longer than the D3 with the same height and width (and 1" longer than the D2), but manages to cram an additional Optical and Coax input along with the USB and analog input of the D3, plus a charging circuit that like the D2 Boa can be charged by the computer's USB port, while still retaining the line-out function of the D3 and it's Wolfson DAC. For all of us with current day macintosh computers, discontinued portable CD players with optical out, or discontinued iRiver H120 and H140 MP3 players with optical out could again have a small portable solution for DAC and amp.

 In this photo you can see the D10 Cobra on the bottom is about 1/2" longer than the D3 Python sitting on it, which is about 1/2" longer than the D2 Boa sitting on it, which is about 2/3" longer than the Pico on the top. I will get some more pictures this weekend and post them.
















 Main Features (per iBasso website):

 - PCM2906, converts USB into a S/PDIF signal
 - CS8416, DA-receiver chip
 - WM8740, D/A chip
 - OP+BUF structure for amplification
 - 2-Setting Gain Switch for impedance matching (+3/10dB)
 - Dedicated MCU (Micro Controller Unit) to manager inputs, outputs, and functions.
 - Flexible input and output compatibility. It has USB, optical, coaxial, stereo input, line out, and stereo output
 - Works as a combo or a stand-alone AMP, DAC, USB soundcard
 - Built-in rechargeable Li-polymer battery plays up to 30 hours (30 hrs for AMP, or 20hrs for combo)
 - Measures 55*21*104mm, and weights 168g
 - Comes with power adapter, leather pouch, optical cable, USB cable, warranty card, owner¡¯s manual, and opamp rolling kit. (includes AD8656*2, LMH6643*2, Dummy adapter*2)

 As you know, the amplifier ranking can actually be a bit different depending on the headphones being used at the time, so I had to do detailed comparisons of multiple amps using multiple headphones and it takes longer and longer with the more amps and headphones I have. With the D10 included, I still have 10 of the 13 amps that have been reviewed! (minus Lyrix, D2 Viper and D1). I just can't listen to 7 or 8 headphones on 10 amps in quick succession in a way that I can remember the previous combination's sound, so I have to make some compromises.

 So, I narrowed down the D10 comparisons to only vs the top tier amps where the D10 belongs, and I compared it only to the top 4 amps that don't sound alike and were the most enjoyable = Predator, Pico, 3MOVE and XM5. At one point late in the review I got a loaner Apogee Duet to dompare it to as well. I can skip most of the others from previous reviews for a variety of reasons: I know where the D3 stands vs the Pico (almost the same but slightly less) and where the Micro DAC/Amp stands (pretty much the same as Pico). I didn't need to do a side by side with D2 Boa, Vivid V1 or Nuforce which are below the top tier for reasons mentioned previously in my reviews.

 I used my RS-1, D2000, HD600, Edition 9 and ESW10 as my full size phones, and I used my Westone 3 and ES3X plus Phonak Audeo as my IEM for the review. I first want to say that the D10 is a good match for any of these headphones, and there was not one that stood out as not getting along with it, even with the stock opamps that were installed. In addition to listening via USB, I found it was very good with my iMod portable (modded ipod), so unlike the D1 it is good out of the box with analog input while the D1 needed new opamps to sound good with analog inputs. And it was very competent via USB as well, but even better with optical as I discovered later. Anytime I did testing via optical I made sure my Macbook pro was set for 24/96 output, as several of the music files I used were native 24.96 files. Lastly, I also tried the DAC line-out and used it as a DAC/pre-amp via headphone-out vs Pico as a DAC/Pre-amp for my Woo GES/Stax O2 rig as well.

 With no burn-in at all and right out of the box, using the stock opamps, and listening via USB it sounded as good as my 600-700 hour D3 via USB in a side by side comparison (I stopped counting after 600 hours). At 55 hours (with optical) D10 had slightly grainy highs vs Pico, but was very detailed and spacious like the Pico. By about 215 hours it had become more refined sounding and I felt that the D10 fed via optical out of a Macbook ranked up there with the top DAC/amps like the Headamp Pico, RSA Predator, Meier 3MOVE and such. I had passed my 300 hour mark set for burn-in the morning of 2/9/09 and over the course of the review I have over 400 hours on the D10 now. The Majority of my review was done with the stock opamps. During the initial evaluation period, I was happy to discover that the D10 has very good channel balance at low volume knob positions with IEM, and it is dead silent when music is not playing and it is connected as a DAC/amp to the computer. There is no hiss with high sensitivity IEM like the Macbook headphone out, while high end DAC/amp like the Apogee Duet has a very slight hiss with my Westone ES3X customs and Livewires or SE530 customs.

 I started my initial listening with USB via RS-1, D2000 and HD600, and first compared it to the Predator. Listening to the D10 and Predator Via USB, and going back and forth between them, I was unable to tell any significant differences in the sound signature other than the Predator has a little less power to drive the HD600, was less detailed, and the Predator's soundstage was flatter than the D10. This was a very long listening session and by the time I was done it was the middle of the night and I was tired, but in subsequent comparisons I felt the D10 was still up to the level of enjoyment that I get from the Predator. So, it seems the D10 sounds as good as the Predator to me but the D10 USB DAC is more detailed and spacious than the Predator.

 I then compared the iBasso D10 optical input vs Predator USB input the next night, using the Phonak Audeo IEM with grey filters and silicone tips while listening to CD's ripped lossless into ALAC format. This particular IEM setup is a more demanding test in that the Phonak with grey filters and silicone tips can be ruthless in revealing details, and usually need the Complys foam tips to smooth out the treble which can sometimes be bright. I often find the grey filters are a little harsher sounding with the silicone tips (or can border on sibilant), and almost always use the large Complys tips (which I had to buy separately). I wanted to see if any of the amps were more forgiving of a demanding and detailed IEM, and to see how much more detail was available via optical instead of USB.

 When I used the D10 via optical I could have 3 amps connected to the Macbook Pro at the same time with two via USB, allowing me to quickly switch between the amps. I rotated the Predator, Pico 3MOVE, and XM5 through the two USB ports, and then also listened to the D10 via USB again. With this particular IEM setup the Predator was slightly smoother in the highs than the D10 Optical, 3MOVE USB or XM5 USB. The Pico was also very smooth and refined, and with this particular IEM setup I have to say the Pico DAC/amp combo is tied with Predator for smoothness when the Phonak have the wrong combination of filters and tips. Going back to the usual Complys T130 foam tips I felt all the amps became smoother with improved bass, so that is really an IEM issue and I should not have been using the silicone tips in the 1st place. In this round of testing the D10 optical does seem to have more micro-detail than all but the Pico (with 16/44 music). It seems the D10 DAC ties with the Pico as the most detailed and spacious while being smooth at the same time (except in mismatched IEM tips and filters). This held true with listening with the Westone 3 and ES3X as well.

 I then tried the D10 DAC to feed another portable amp, using line-out and headphone out. I plugged the D10 line-out into the Predator using a nice quality ALO 22g Cryo Silver X mini-mini and the D10 was connected to the Macbook via optical and USB, but I also left the Predator connected via USB. This way I was able to flip the front panel switch to switch between the built-in DAC or the D10 DAC while switching the computer at the same time. The D10 line-out volume level matches closely the Predator's USB DAC line level, so the volume of the amp did not change with changing the source. With 16bit/44khz lossless ripped CDs, the D10 line-out into the Predator sounded better as a source than the Predator using it's built-in USB DAC, which sounded slightly flatter and less lively, regardless of whether the D10 was used with optical or USB. Switching to the D10 headphone-out to drive the Predator woke up the sound a bit, similar to what I heard with the D3 line-out function previously - both the D3 and D10 DAC's line-out seem slightly less alive and vibrant than their headphone out when feeding the sound into another amplifier. This was confirmed when comparing the D10 line-out to several desktop DAC at a recent mini-meet, where I only used line-out instead of the headphone out (there were also issues of different interconnects and digital cables and inserting a pre-amp and listener fatigue and severe lack of time).

 I then put on three different albums with higher quality 24/96 bit rates in lossless (Ryan Adams and the Cardinals, and Portico Quartet, and Arnie Somogyl's Ambulance) and listened again. The D10 optical DAC into the Predator was superior with more micro-detail and ambience and air between instruments, and while the Predator via USB sounded good the soundstage was flatter and smaller than with the D10 optical. This improvement was still there even when feeding the inferior D10 line out instead of headphone out into the Predator. The D10 handles native 24/96 files well, while the older D1 could not decode digital signals greater than 24/48 via optical (Mac audio midi setup was set for 24/96 via optical before launching iTunes). With the computer still set for optical out and using the D10 DAC, swapping the headphones from Predator over to the D10 (and unplugging the mini interconnect) switched the sound to the D10 headphone out, and resulted in very little change in the sound when the headphones were driven by the D10 instead of the Predator. Basically, the D10 via USB matches or exceeds the Predator's performance as a DAC/amp, and via optical it beats it in detail and resolution with 16/44 or 24/96 files.

 I then did some comparisons with the Pico vs D10. In many songs such as with an Elaine Elias song "You and the Night and the Music", some of the cymbals strikes or other notes die out just a little faster with the Pico and there is more quiet or blackness between the notes than with the D10. It's like with the D10 optical I can hear a little "deeper" into the music and hear more of the quiet stuff going on in the background and between notes, and I don't mean noise floor but rather the decay of the instruments and echos hiding in there. This gives the illusion that the notes start and stop slightly faster with the Pico, making it sound a little snappier. I find that the D10 as a DAC/amp and the Pico (and Duet) have a larger sense of space and ambience than the Predator, 3MOVE or XM5 which don't use the Wolfson WM8740 DAC like these two.

 Similar to my DAC test vs Predator, I also tried feeding the D10 as a DAC line-out (and headphone out) into the Pico, and compared it's DAC to the Pico's built-in DAC (removing the amp section from the equation). The D10 headphone out volume needed to be set at 3 o'clock in high gain to get the output volume to match the Pico USB DAC volume when flipping between them. When using D10 line-out the volume was much softer and while I listened to the Pico in low gain via it's built-in USB, when switching to D10 as the DAC with its line-out feeding Pico I had to switch the Pico to hi-gain to match the volume of the Pico's USB input. The D10 line out is softer and quieter than the internal USB DAC of the Pico, which was not the case with the Predator. I found The D10 optical and the Apogee Duet via firewire were both slightly more detailed with native 24/96 files than the Pico, but the differences were much less with 16/44 music (almost negligible). So, the optical D10 line-out when fed native 24/96 did pull away slightly from the Pico, where the USB makes the Mac down-sample the music to 16/44, and then the Pico has to up-sample it back up to 24/96. But otherwise, with 16/44 files the advantage was minimal if any.

 As for other areas of the sound, the D10 as an amp sounds slightly warmer than the Pico, and after getting used to the sound via D10 as a headphone amp, switching to the Pico can sometimes sound slightly thinner - the same effect I experienced almost a year ago when I was comparing the Pico to the Predator. Sometimes I think the D10 sound falls between the Pico and Predator, but with having the resolution and space of the Pico. I feel the musical performance via the D10 as a complete package sounded a little fuller and "bigger" than the Pico, despite having a little less power than the Pico for the HD600. It could still get loud with HD600, but was optimal with RS-1, D2000, Edition 9, ESW10, and all my IEM. When not pushing the D10 amp to the max, the sound signature seems just a little closer to a desktop amp to me, like the Predator, although neither one has the power of a desktop amp (or even the power of the 3MOVE and Pico). With the RS-1, D2000 and Edition 9 the D10 volume can go extremely high. With HD600 it is about as powerful as the D3 and XM5, and more than the D2 Boa or Predator or Nuforce. But the Pico and V1 are still more powerful, and the 3MOVE is the king of power with the HD600 (in hi-output mode). I am still amazed at the volumes I can get with the 3MOVE and HD600.

 I did another comparison (which I repeated on 2/14 with Sherwood), comparing the D10 and Pico as USB DACs feeding my Woo GES and listening with Stax O2 Mk1 and Mk2. This rig is where the Pico gets used the most. The D10 via optical and feeding the line-out signal into a Woo GES desktop amp was very close to the Pico doing the same, and at the meet Sherwood didn't even notice the very small drop in detail and space when I switched the D10 from optical to USB when he wasn't looking (went from D10 optical > Pico > D10 USB). I found that it is easier to hear the drop in sound quality switching the D10 from optical to USB when one is looking for it. Nevertheless, the D10 USB DAC is at least as good as the D3 USB DAC that was so close to (but slightly below) the Pico previously. At one point the D10 DAC line-out output wasn't high enough for the low-gain GES. So I switched the D10 to headphone out into the GES, like I must do with the Pico, and I noticed an improvement in dynamics and soundstage which I assumed was from the higher gain. Further testing shows this is a slight improvement in sound from headphone out vs line-out when the D10 is used to drive another amp.

 I want to mention that at the same meet last weekend, where Sherwood and I compared the D10 vs Pico as a DAC feeding a full size amp, we also tried comparing D10 to several desktop DACs. That didn't turn out as well. We had 6 DACs connected to an NAD542 via an S/PDIF distribution center via Coax with a mish-mash of digital cables, and a variety of interconnects feeding the DACs outputs into a Presonus central Station, and then fed the output of the Presonus to 3 electrostatic amps with a variety of cables and listened with 5 electrostatic headphones. Now that I look at it, there was no way to get all 5 listeners hearing the same thing, nor could we put the DACs on a level playing field. The test showed the line-out is not as dynamic and spacious (5 out of 5 people agreed) as the 5 desktop DACs. But, I don't recall the D10 ever sounding that flat and "un-dynamic" before. So I had to wonder if we did something wrong because we had clearly earlier in the day shown the D10 to be a match for the Pico as a DAC/Pre-amp. I wonder if part of that DAC shoot-out result was due to the difference between line-out and headphone out, but still, when connected directly to the amp it is feeding, the D10 DAC line-out is pretty good.

 And, as far as I can tell the D10 via USB is MUCH better than the USB in the older D1 was - the D1 USB feeding another amp was closer to the $40 Headstage DAC cable feeding another amp (although D1 USB sounded better when feeding its internal amp). I also find that the D10 optical input DAC is a little better sounding than the D1 optical was as I remember it, because this D10 DAC is closer to the Micro DAC and Pico than the D1 was. In general, listening to the D10 via optical is like like mixing the best traits of the Predator and the Pico together, and even via USB I enjoyed it as much as the Predator and Pico or Duet. I believe it tops the sound of the D3 Python and the D2 Viper with rolled opamps, and is the best DAC/amp that iBasso has put out so far.

 As I have reported problems with RFI from the iPhone causing a GSM Buzz with other amps, I listened for that issue as well. Fortunately the D10 does not pick up radio stations from the towers behind my house like my D3, and the RFI "buzz" from iPhone is less than with the D3 as well (and more like the RFI with my D2 Boa = mild but livable). The D10 is also less sensitive to RFI with nothing plugged into the USB port on the back of the amp, and the iPhone Buzz responds well to changing the opamp to an AD8656 and using a Quick Bridge Solutions - EM Shield for iPhone EM blocking card.

 The ability to change or "roll" opamps is a nice feature. The D10 comes stock with an AD4841-2 in the main amp socket, and a pair of AD708 in the buffer sockets (all dual channel opamps, not single). They also include a small case with two AD8656 opamps, two LMH6643 opamps, and two dummy opamps for bypassing the buffers. I also have a large supply of opamps from my time rolling opamps in the D1 and D2 Viper, so I tried a variety of opamps with the D10. There are several that sound good, including an AD8066 with the AD708 buffers, AD8397 with the buffers bypassed (using dummy opamps that are included), and AD8656 with bypassed buffers. The AD8656 and 8066 have nice large/spacious soundstages and refined sound, and the AD8656 still puts out a lot of power without any buffers and can get loud enough with HD600 at max volume knob setting, without any clipping. Using the AD8656 does get a little brighter with any buffer I tried, including 2x AD708, LMH6643 and AD8656. I had a third 8656 left from my D1 kit (it will blow if used in the main amp socket of the D1), but I didn't like it enough with three 8656 to use anything but the one 8656 by itself. I have not had a chance to try any of the other opamps with two 8656 as buffers. Using the buffers did seem to add just a little more volume to the 8656, but then the D10 would clip before the volume knob would hit 5 o'clock. So far my two preferred setups are the stock one, or the AD8656 with bypassed buffers. I only started rolling opamps on 2/21 and the AD8656 is what is in it now, for the final few hours of my review. I left the D10 connected to USB with the switch flipped to charge for 2 weeks, to see how it would do in a desktop rig where it is plugged in and on all the time. Tonight I unplugged the USB and left it running via optical with the AD8656 opamp and bypassed buffers to test battery life. I will report on this later, so that I can post this review now.

 UPDATE OPAMP ROLLING: The TLE2141 class-A biased on a 2:1 with EL8201 buffers brings the D10 very close to the P-51 mustang, but with just a little less treble extension and presence. It also sounds very similar to the iBasso D4 with stock opamps, which sounds like a cross between the P-51 and Pico.

*To me there seem to be three tiers of portable headphone amps* (examples are ones I have heard):

 1. The "Don't bother with this if you don't have to" group = E3 and Boostaroo (add power but subtracts from the sound, narrow soundstage, or rolled off frequency response, or all of the above).

 2. The "Good bang for the buck but with compromises" group which are not good for everything, but great for some things = includes Travagans Colors, JSeaber Cmoy, Caffeine Pro, Vivid V1, Nuforce mobile, D2 Boa and Stock D1 or stock D2 Viper.

 3. And the, "Wow, this is getting closer to a desktop amp" factor (usually in sound but not power). These have more presence and body to the sound and are more refined, and there are very few phones they don't work well with = includes Pico, Predator, 3MOVE, XM5, D2 Viper with rolled opamps, D1 rolled and D10 stock or rolled, Headsix, TTVJ, Micro Amp. The Lyrix Total is an odd one out because the Amp sounds like a top tier and the DAC is a middle tier. The D3 sits at the bottom of top tier, straddling the fence. *The D10 now joins this top tier portable amp group, and I put it at the top of my list for now.*

*RANKING:* Please see newer ranking below, as the old ranking caused this post to exceed 100,000 characters and could not be saved. I placed the D10 as #1, in the top tier, due to it's very detailed DAC, and sound which could mimic the Predator (stock) or a cross between Pico and P-51 with the opamps listed above..


*Clarification D10 DAC COMPARISONS:* In response to some questions about D10 line out vs headphone out - the D10 line-out is still quite good and my review and rankings are based on the performance of the line-out when applicable. As a USB DAC I felt that the line-out was better in comparisons to other portable USB DAC in all cases except for the Pico USB DAC being better and closer to the higher performance of the D10 optical; however, I noted that the headphone out was even better than line-out, and the optical on top of either output was even better than USB.

 It gets confusing because I listened to the D10 with (1) it's own DAC and amp with USB and optical, and then listened to the (2) Predator and (3) Pico with their own DAC. And I also listened to Predator and Pico with them being feed by the D10 DAC with optical and USB, using both line-out and headphone out to feed the Predator and Pico. That's 12 combinations of DAC and amp!

 D10 optical > D10 amp
 D10 USB > D10 amp
 Predator USB > Predator amp
 D10 optical line-out > Predator amp
 D10 optical headphone out > Predator amp
 D10 USB line-out > Predator amp
 D10 USB headphone out > Predator amp
 Pico USB > Pico amp
 D10 optical line-out > Pico amp
 D10 optical Headphone out > Pico amp
 D10 USB line-out > Pico amp
 D10 USB headphone out > Pico amp

 The only time the line-out did not compare favorably was in the comparison to several desktop DAC, in a shoot out that I think involved poor methodology - where the DACs didn't all use the same digital and analog cables between the source, or same preamp and power amp interconnects, and where all the listeners were using different headphones and amps, without being able to volume match the lower output of the D10, with too little time to really begin to appreciate the sound. If the D10 line out is too weak/low, it works very well as a DAC/preamp using the headphone out to feed a full size amp.

*01/24/10 - IBASSO D4 - I WILL NOT BE ABLE TO FIT THE ENTIRE REVIEW HERE DUE TO THE 100,000 CHARACTER LIMIT, AND WILL POST LINKS INSTEAD.*. See links below. I have more comments posted in many posts which I am trying to consolidate into one review post.











 FIRST IMPRESSIONS - http://www.head-fi.org/forums/6146137-post932.html and http://www.head-fi.org/forums/6147003-post934.html
 MINI-REVIEW D4 vs D10 and others, with opamp rolling - http://www.head-fi.org/forums/6264269-post962.html
 More COMPARISONS - http://www.head-fi.org/forums/6274204-post972.html

*In summary* - the stock D4 sounds very much like the D10 with it's best opamps installed, with a slightly beter USB DAC that rivals the D10 optical DAC. The D4 with OPA1611A class-A biased opamps on a 2:1 adapter and stock buffers is even better, and actually closest to my favorite P-51 Mustang. I confirmed this as I did a comparison feeding the D4 line-out into the P-51 with an 18G Jumbo Cryo Silver X mini-mini. I can go back and forth between the D4's built-in DAC/Amp and the D4's DAC feeding the P-51 and I am quite happy with both, finding them to sound very similar.

 I am leaving the D4 set up qith OPA1611 class-A as a "P-51 clone" for the time being. *Right now the D4 with upgraded opamps is my top pick for portable USB DAC/amp combo, that can be powered by battery or laptop, although my biggest gripe is the sub 10 hour battery life.* If battery life along with a high end DAC is important to you, then the D10 still makes more sense, as it is very close to a cross between the Pico and P-51 when the best opamps are installed (minus some treble extension and presence), and it runs for 24-38 hours depending on the opamps and DAC used. Any of the 8 amps in the top 5 spots would keep me happy as my only USB DAC amp, and picking one should be based on features and price.[/B]

*RANKING: Note - I have edited the comments in the ranking below, to elaborate on what I thought about the DAC or amp.* I did sell the D2 Viper a while back because it could sound like a Predator or a Pico, but was redundant with less battery life than the others. And I also traded the Pico off because I have a Pico DAC with a Pico Slim to be on the way soon, to pair with my Pico DAC. That combo may soon become my #1 ranked DAC amp combo, while not being an all-in-one, but also while being the most expensive. I slightly preferred the Slim over my P-51 with ES3X at CanJam. I still had access to the sold Pico for this D4 review, since my friend Blutarsky who has it is only a 30 minute drive away.

*I have several ties in rank, and as I use the amps more over time my preferences may change; but The 8 amps in 1st - 5th place are all on a similarly high level of performance, and are very close to a tie for 1st*. There is NOT a huge leap in sound moving from #5 to #1, but rather the rank is rather based on preference and which I prefer to use the most. I could almost make all the top 5 places tie for 1st, but I wont.

 Although some have better DACs than others, and some have better amp sections than others, it may average out in the final sound signature and performance. Choosing one can be based on features, price, synergy with the headphones tested, where I could be just as happy with any of them as my only portable DAC/amp if I were reduced to one. In the past I had moved the 2MOVE ranking down because I couldn't remember how good it sounded, having not listened to one in months. Then I bought a 3MOVE which is a 2MOVE with an upgraded case, and I fixed my ranking. Those changes were noted in the older rankings that were recently deleted to make more room in this post. See additional comments included in the ranking below if you haven't read the entire reviews:

*1. iBasso D4* - Almost a tie for 1st once the D10 opamps are upgraded, but once the D4 opamps are upgraded the amp section pulls slightly ahead again. Battery life not as good as D10, DAC performance seems to equal D10 optical and Pico to the best of my ability to hear them, where USB DAC is only slightly ahead of D10 via USB. Based on features, D10 should tie D4, but since I am not using optical or battery and like the sound a little more, I prefer the D4 purely as my main laptop DAC/amp. As a portable, I'd prefer the D10 for 3-4x more battery life and ability to use with my iRiver H140 and Sony PCDP as well. But, both are too big to be my only portable and I most often use the P-51 for that.
*2. iBasso D10* Great sound that blends the performance of the Predator and Pico, with a USB DAC that falls between them and an optical DAC that exceeds theirs (in 24/96). Ability to roll opamps and tune the sound is great, and it has convenient charging via USB port. It has decent power for even HD600, but I could wish for more, and good low volume channel balance for IEM.
*3. RSA Predator* - Good bass and soundstage, more body, organic, full. Seems to do well with all my headphones, and not bad with any. Gobs of power with RS-1, D2000 and Edition 9 but could use a little more power with HD600 - very underpowered for AKG K240M 600 ohm. DAC is not as good as the Pico, but the sound of the amp makes up for it.
*4. D2 Viper with rolled opamps* - This has been sold and is discontinued. It's spot in ranking stays due to how it sounded in relation to Predator, Pico and 3MOVE. However, with the opamps that gave it the 17 hour battery life, the sound was similar to a Pico clone with a slightly less resolving DAC. At that point the Pico and others would move up to take it's rank. With LM6172/THS4032 it was more balanced, not too forward, with sweet/magical Saxophone, and almost mesmerizing like Predator. With my IEM I found it sounded better with the LM6172 and THS4032 swapped. This second opamp configuration was good with all my IEM, and not bad with my full size phones, except the RS-1 seem a bit bright and the Proline 2500 lacked fullness in the mids. With LTC6241HV/LMH6622 sounds like 98% of the Predator but with only 7 hour battery life. Later I discovered the LM4562 main/LM6172 ground, and this works very well for full size phones and IEM - very open and spacious and detailed, sounding closer to the Pico without losing too much warmth or rich tone. And battery life was bumped from 7 hours to 17 hours! DAC is more detailed and spacious than Predator or 3MOVE, but not quite as good as Pico's DAC. This is just how close all these amps really were, that with the right opamps I only prefer it to the Pico or 3MOVE by a hair.
*4. PICO* - Smooth and transparent without coloration, Great DAC. Won the bad mastering Diana Krall test, but nothing special with piano and sax like the others, too neutral as an amp - how is that possible, maybe not because there is something around 2Khz that is not right with RS-1. It really seems to shine with my re-cabled Denon D2000, Klipsch Image, Freq Show customs, but doesn't sound bad with anything but my Proline 2500). Over the past few months the Pico has really been growing on me, and it no longer seems to lack warmth with my RS-1 or other headphones (especially since I sold the PL2500). The DAC's space and ambience and soundstage still stand out as slightly superior to other USB DAC, as before, and it seems to do well with most IEM but not all. With the D10 and D4 the USB DAC performance gap is closing.
*4. Headroom 2006 Micro Stack Portable* - A twin to the Pico's sound as far as portable amps go, but better with piano. Too BIG and out of production, with crossfeed mids are richer/warmer but highs rolled off. With comparing the newer Pico DAC only to Micro DAC only with a full size amp, the Pico DAC has an edge in performance over the Micro DAC only. With the portable amps the edge seems to go away as resolution of the amps is less.
*5. 2MOVE/3MOVE* - Sweet mids and with saxophone, midbass hmmm - maybe a little boost, failed the bad mastering diana krall test, great detail and air, too large and heavy, sounds as good as Pico but it's a different sound, sometimes too forward, other times fills in a thinner headphone. NO iPhone Buzz. Auditory memory faded as I hadn't listened to the 2MOVE in months, so I bought a B-stock 3MOVE and found I do still enjoy it very much. Since I am liking open and spacious sound a little more now, the Pico moved up to tie the 3MOVE rather than move the 3MOVE down. I did add listening to the Westone 3 with this amp and they are fantastic together. 3MOVE is a better match for the D2000 and RS-1 than XM5, while I liked the XM5 more with HD600, Edition 9 and ESW10, even though 3MOVE had more power for HD600. Slightly more power for HD600 than Pico.
*5. Practical Devices XM5* - Stock amp section better than D3 and rivals higher ranked amps, but DAC not as good as the D3 - so it evens out. With AD8065 opamp and BUF634 installed it's on the level of the 3MOVE. Gets along better with more of my headphones than D3 and with all of my IEM, and I am having no iPhone buzzing with it so far. A chameleon - many times it sounds like my Predator, and other times it sounds more like the 3MOVE, depending on my expectations. And the amp section really shines with iMod or an external DAC instead of the built-in DAC.
*6. D3 Python* - Very sensitive to RF interference from Cheyenne Mountain and NORAD. Had to sell. The sound is very close to the 3rd place amps, but not quite there. I like it very much, being only slightly less smooth in the upper mids with Grado than Pico, and very slightly less micro-detail in ambient cues and complex passages, dropped in rank because of RFI problems)
*7. Nuforce Icon Mobile* - More forward than D2 Boa and closer to Vivid V1 and 2MOVE in that regard, has good synergy with Westone 3, Klipsch X10, Nuforce NE-7M, Denon C700, ATH-ESW10, D2000, and Edition 9 - sounded nice with HD600 but a bit under powered with HD600 and not worth trying with 600 ohm AKG K240M. With RS-1 occasionally had a similar upper mids coloration like Vivid V1, and sometimes needed to switch to the flats to enjoy them more. So not first choice for Grado but would not avoid the amp because one owns Grados. Good midrange detail but not as full and rich sounding as the top tier amps above except with D2000, Edition 9 and Westone 3 which bring that to the table on their own.
*7. D2 Boa* - Sonic signature slightly warmer than the Pico, and between the D2 Viper with LM6172 in the main amp (warmer) vs THS4032 in the main amp and LM6172 in the ground (cooler). Timbre and tone was good, and lower mids were slightly forward and rich, and highs had slightly less extension than the D2 Viper or Pico and Predator (in that order). The sense of space with live performances was superior in the D2 Viper, Pico and Predator (in that order), and LESS with the Boa at 300 hours of burn-in. However, the Boa did open up and gain more air and ambience on the level of the other top ranked amps by 575 hours of burn-in. Listening to Diana Krall "Girl in the Other Room" (Temptation and other songs) seemed to indicate more of a low mids hump than the other amps, which also caused problems with Pianos and realism on that CD. The problems reproducing this particular CD remained after 575 hours of burn-in, however with other CD's like Jazz at the Pawnshop, Handel Messiah and Tsuyoshi Yamamoto the D2 Boa demonstrated improved transparency and realism with the extra burn-in. And with other music it seems the bass extension is slightly less than the others in the top ranks, but by 575 hours of burn-in (with my RS-1) the 16Hz audio tones on Binks Audio Test CD were clearly audible, and the volume of the 20Hz tone caught me by surprise, while 25Hz was a little disorienting! With over 800 hours the lower mids hump is less noticeable with female and male vocals now, but the middle mids and upper mids now seem to be more withdrawn instead.
*7. D1 with rolled opamps* - With AD797 main/LM6643 buffer/LT6234 DAC - powerful, punchy, energetic, alive. Not as bright as AD743/6643/6241 which excelled with Edition 9 and re-cabled HFI-780. The D2 Boa moved up a little with more burn-in, but it wasn't quite good enough to rise up to a 3rd place tie. So the modded D1 and everything else had to move down a slot. The D1 via USB isn't as nearly good as via optical, which is why it is not tied with the D2 Boa after the Boa improved with extended burn-in. With optical input it might beat the Boa easily, but analog input sounds worse than USB.
*8. Vivid Technology V1* - Very good synergy with HD600 and AKG K240M 600 ohm, nice and fun with Edition 9 and Klipsch Image X10. Acceptable with RS-1 IF switching to flats, but bowls are not recommended, and unacceptable with my Freq Show but not the amp's fault. DAC with slightly more micro-detal than stock D1 via USB or Headstage Lyrix, slightly less than either D2 Viper/Boa or the other higher up amps. The most forward of all the amps. Can be closer to the top with HD600 and Edition 9 or 2nd with K240M, but closer to last place with Grado RS-1 and bowls (and last with Freq Show).
*9. D2 Viper stock* - tied. Thin in the middle, neutral with good bass - it was sound signature and power but not level of detail that held it back with the stock opamps. Sounds good with Freq Show and most of my IEM, fairly good with HD600 and Edition 9 but lacks power. Not bad with RS-1 but can't properly drive AKG K240M 600 ohm. Sounds better with re-cabled modded ATH-AD900 than the Boa or V1.
*9. Lyrix* - tied. Good frequency balance, DAC lacking details and air vs the others, but decent. The amp is great with analog input and closer to top teir like D3.
*10. D1 stock opamps* - I put AD823/NE5532/AD8616 back in right before I shipped it back for the 2-3db channel imbalance, too edgy and bright and distant. Very close to 7th as a DAC/Amp because the DAC is so good it makes up for the frequency response issues. Clearly 8th if only using analog input. NOTE - my V1 opamps were from the initial run, and iBasso updated the opamps to V2 in November 07 to make it better than Lyrix.)

 I should note that any of these amps are very pleasing sounding, but 5th place and up are almost a tie for 1st.


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## CountChoculaBot

Have you done any OpAmp rolling on the D2? I'm curious as to what the max potential of the D2 is.


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## jamato8

Very nice review. I know it isn't always easy. 

 I found changes in the Predator after 1200 hours. Refinement and subtle improvements in transparency and its "character". As I have mentioned so many times, it ages and ages in a superb way. To me this is as rewarding as the sound because it keeps going in the right direction. It is almost like it has a personality and maybe it does or maybe, there is no maybe about it.


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## EscapePlan

Thanks for the review HeadphoneAddict, it was exactly what I was looking for! I've been lurking here for a while but since I registered, you've been the most helpful to me. Thanks again, Predator it is!


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## dap_pad

Wow... this would be a great thread to all AMP/DAC potential buyers. Maybe this will be like the 37 Portable Amp Review thread LOL All you need is the 2Move, Go Vibe Petite and a few more 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Great review, I should be getting my D2 in a week or so, can't wait. Really hope to hear your impression of the D2 with more burn-in compared to other AMP/DACs.


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## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *CountChoculaBot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Have you done any OpAmp rolling on the D2? I'm curious as to what the max potential of the D2 is._

 

Not yet, I have the ISL50002 to try, but am waiting for my THS4032 to arrive for the amp's IC7 socket. So, I figured I'd try to get more hours on it stock first.


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## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I found changes in the Predator after 1200 hours. Refinement and subtle improvements in transparency and its "character". As I have mentioned so many times, it ages and ages in a superb way. To me this is as rewarding as the sound because it keeps going in the right direction. It is almost like it has a personality and maybe it does or maybe, there is no maybe about it._

 

Well, it ages so slowly that I might not have heard changes from 1,000 > 1,100 hours, and if I hadn't sent it off for the review I might be saying it sounds better at 1,500 than it did at 1,000. But, it sounds good enough that I only run it when I listen to it now.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dap_pad* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wow... this would be a great thread to all AMP/DAC potential buyers. Maybe this will be like the 37 Portable Amp Review thread LOL All you need is the 2Move, Go Vibe Petite and a few more 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Great review, I should be getting my D2 in a week or so, can't wait. Really hope to hear your impression of the D2 with more burn-in compared to other AMP/DACs._

 

Yeah. I don't have any plans right now to acquire a Petite or Leckerton UHA-3, or Total BitHead. I was torn between the D2 and the 2MOVE but, 

 (1) the 2MOVE is bigger than I wanted and,

 (2) I had a store credit with iBasso from a defective P2 (twice) and paid the additional $60 to get the D2 as the third chance at success. The 2MOVE price seems fair, so that wasn't an issue.

 (3) if I go for a big one, it might be the HeadRoom Micro Amp with DAC portable. For that, price is an issue ($598).


----------



## kamal007

nice review larry,
 Thanks


----------



## scottiebabie

good stuff larry. i envy u your toyz & mucho apprecianado for sharing it with us. great job bud!


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

See update #2 above.


----------



## mrarroyo

Any chance you can compare them again when the D2 is at 500 hours and the Predator at 1200? Thanks.


----------



## 909

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I found changes in the Predator after 1200 hours._

 






 that basically would be 50 days of straight burn in--absolutely amazing, i wonder if ray even knows its full potential. thank goodness, it only got better for you (funny we never hear negative burn-in attributes always positive). anyway, color me a big time skeptic, but more power to you.


----------



## Skylab

Nice review, Larry! Good job.


----------



## LordofDoom

Good review


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *909* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_





 that basically would be 50 days of straight burn in--absolutely amazing, i wonder if ray even knows its full potential. thank goodness, it only got better for you (funny we never hear negative burn-in attributes always positive). anyway, color me a big time skeptic, but more power to you._

 

About the burn-in I agree. I even find it strange about the non negative. In the first few hundred hours it went up and down some but then it just formed better and better, which is not my normal experience if an amp is still forming (cap). The length of time seems daunting and I still find it hard to believe but what can I say? It has been born out by a number of other ears. I am just glad it ages the way it does, it is kind of fun in a way as even at 800 hours it sounds very good.


----------



## ndskyz

Good stuff. I still may get me a Leckerton just to compare with the D2. If I do I'll let you borrow it for review


----------



## thread

I'm wondering why it is that so many folks listen to both and are so sold on the Pico based on the upsampling DAC. A lot of what I've read in the other threads has the Pico as the "obvious winner" due to the clean and detailed sound of the DAC.

 I know we all have our own preferences, and I don't regret my decision going with the Predator one bit... but I'm curious what HeadphoneAddict and others' opinions are on this. Does the amp in the Predator give it such a great sound sig that we forgive it for the DAC?

 I was close to picking up a Pico to do my own comparison, but meh... don't think I'll go there (right now).

 And great review, HeadphoneAddict. I enjoyed it!


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mrarroyo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Any chance you can compare them again when the D2 is at 500 hours and the Predator at 1200? Thanks._

 

I see no reason why not, but I am not sure how long I will do the continuous burn-in with the D2's stock opamps, as I was planning to roll in some new ones at about 250-300 hours.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *thread* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm wondering why it is that so many folks listen to both and are so sold on the Pico based on the upsampling DAC. A lot of what I've read in the other threads has the Pico as the "obvious winner" due to the clean and detailed sound of the DAC.

 I know we all have our own preferences, and I don't regret my decision going with the Predator one bit... but I'm curious what HeadphoneAddict and others' opinions are on this. Does the amp in the Predator give it such a great sound sig that we forgive it for the DAC?

 I was close to picking up a Pico to do my own comparison, but meh... don't think I'll go there (right now).

 And great review, HeadphoneAddict. I enjoyed it!_

 

I think that I covered that in my review pretty well, no argument from me here. I tend to think of the Predator as a musical amp, and the Pico as a neutral source.


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *thread* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm wondering why it is that so many folks listen to both and are so sold on the Pico based on the upsampling DAC. A lot of what I've read in the other threads has the Pico as the "obvious winner" due to the clean and detailed sound of the DAC.

 I know we all have our own preferences, and I don't regret my decision going with the Predator one bit... but I'm curious what HeadphoneAddict and others' opinions are on this. Does the amp in the Predator give it such a great sound sig that we forgive it for the DAC?

 I was close to picking up a Pico to do my own comparison, but meh... don't think I'll go there (right now).

 And great review, HeadphoneAddict. I enjoyed it!_

 

I have not read that the Pico is an obvious winner and although the dacs are different I do not know that one is superior in sound to the other. Specs are one thing, implementation is another. I have not read that many accounts comparing the two and there are still not that many Predators out there with enough hours on them. AGain, what is there to forgive on the dac? Just questions but I don't see a position either way as supported by time born out comparisons as both are still fairly new.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

It looks like after mrarroyo is done reviewing Skylab's 2MOVE that I will be doing so too. Should be interesting.


----------



## Downer

Great review. I was wondering how would Headroom Micro amp with DAC compares to the Predator and Pico. For sure, it is bigger than the other two but would it provide a sound closer to a home amp ??? Thanks..


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

I have the Micro Stack (2006) portable DAC and Amp, and I am burning in the amp right now. It sounds VERY good, but I haven't done a detailed evaluation of the Amp. So I don't want to comment about that section yet vs these.

 In the limited time I've had it I do think the DAC's line out is more balanced and warm than the DAC line out from the iBasso D1, despite trying 4 different opamps in the iBasso DAC section. I bought this mainly for a better portable optical DAC, and I use it with the iRiver H140 and Predator, which all fits in a headroom Micro Bag. I could not fit the iRiver AND Micro Amp in the bag at the same time with the Micro DAC, and I can't really fit the D2 in there either (stretches the clear plastic and might rip it).

 The 2007 Micro portable is now a 2 in 1, but they changed the DAC chip from the flagship Cirrus Logic to another chip, and several other changes were made which I don't know the effect on performance. I haven't seen reviews yet. It certainly is a bigger package, and I consider it more of a transportable, like the D1. The 20 hour re-chargable battery is a plus, over a FOUR 250 mah 9v re-chargables for the "stack" that need a separate charger.

 I only bought the Micro Amp as an afterthought because of the $120 discount for the package deal, and already like it better than my HeadFive or Meier HA-1, which aren't portable. Then again, I've said the Predator is better than those two also.


----------



## thread

Looking back at the review, I suppose you did make the direct comparison between the pico/predator sound sigs that I was asking for. My apologies for missing that. And it makes sense... Some people will prefer the neutral sig of the Pico, while some will enjoy the added flavor of the Predator.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

awfully quiet here.


----------



## TheMarchingMule

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_awfully quiet here._

 

lol probably because the majority (like me) are out at some kind of party. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But ironically, I spend the time to check up on Head-Fi and post. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Thanks for the review...I'm just frustrated right now because I can't afford either the Predator right now...I had the funds, but I decided to blow it on a Little Dot MK IV SE instead.

 Hopefully someday I'll buy an iMod dock, Predator, and UE triple.fi 10 Pro before I go to college.

 Thanks again for making me salivate over audio equipment.


----------



## Manny Calavera

Great review !

 I just past 410 hours on my Predator and the bass is still improving,as seems to be the midrange as well.


----------



## onlychild

Hey Manny, 

 How does the Predator sound with the ESW9s? I have heard the ESW9s are warm sounding and so is the Predator. Is it too much warmth. 

 Thanks


----------



## Illidan

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_awfully quiet here._

 

Good work
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 Pretty nice reviews and i'm interested in your further plans. More headphones involve would be great.


----------



## kamal007

Hey Larry, if you have the time post up some reviews of your HF-1 connected to the D2, predator and pico. Thanks in advance


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kamal007* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hey Larry, if you have the time post up some reviews of your HF-1 connected to the D2, predator and pico. Thanks in advance_

 

I hope to get to those in the next couple of days.


----------



## DLim98

Exactly what I was looking for! Thank you very much HeadphoneAddict


----------



## mrarroyo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It looks like after mrarroyo is done reviewing Skylab's 2MOVE that I will be doing so too. Should be interesting._

 

What are you talking about? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I refuse to admit having received anything form anyone! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Just kidding, I received the D2 from Skylab today. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I will only be using it as an amp since my D2 only has about 100 hours and I already sold the D1, my HeadRoom Micro Dac, the Headphonia, and the Leckerton UHA3. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Plus I only listened to the Predator and Pico for a short period and as we all know going by memory is a sure way to mess up.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mrarroyo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What are you talking about? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I refuse to admit having received anything form anyone! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Just kidding, I received the [2MOVE] from Skylab today. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I will only be using it as an amp since my D2 only has about 100 hours and I already sold the D1, my HeadRoom Micro Dac, the Headphonia, and the Leckerton UHA3. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Plus I only listened to the Predator and Pico for a short period and as we all know going by memory is a sure way to mess up. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Well, I will be testing only with DAC as the source. I have the D1 back from Blutarsky, but it may be gone again before I do my review.


----------



## jamato8

Well I can say that the D2 I have is starting to open up very nice. It is extending beyond right and left and I am getting very decent depth. The IC iBasso sells also does a very credible job.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

My findings of the 4 amps rankings is un-chaged with the HF-1, HD600 or Edition 9. 

 I find the Pico does add some more soundstage to the RS-2, but at the expense of the bass they need from the Predator. I can get the bass back switching the RS-2 from bowls to flats, but then I lose some of the soundstage I gained.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

I should note, that the HD600 and HF-1 and Edition 9 ALL have the APS V3 cable on them.


----------



## tako_tsubo

Great review Headphoneaddict. 
 My Pico arrived earlier this month and I have been listening to it strictly as my usb dac/amp out of a Dell Vostro playing apple lossless and 320mp3's. I've put on about 900 hrs on the Predator and have been enjoying the heck out of it the past few months, so it was time for the pico. I half expected it to blow the predator away as it seemed that the pico was often described as Lush, Musical, Rich and Smooth and there was no question that the pico's dac was its best asset...but, no, I was pleased to hear that these portable units are BOTH Lush, Musical, Rich and Smooth. It really just depends on the music that you are listening to and the Headphone (pl2500 for this study) 

 So today I set up both dac/amps to the laptop and played a variety of songs that I wanted to hear today....

 Devil's Haircut/Hotwax - Beck Odelay : The Pico really displays it's Airy soundstage with the hammer sounds in the beginning of the song more prominent and having an overall more "headphone " effects sounding. But the bass seemed a little Fat. The predator presented a warmer overall sound, but rather than that hammer it was the cymbals that really presented itself. The low end was more controlled. The ending Distortion so much more Fun and Coherant on the predator. 

 Concrete Sky - Beth Orton Daybreak : Pico had the bass down on this song, while the predator did the drums/cymbals right for my ears. Beth's vocals were nice and up front on both but the male vocals doing harmony were placed by her side and behind her on the pico and seemed behind my head and a few feet away on the predator...go figure.

 Mushaboom/ 1234 - Feist : Pico just nails Feist! Both had the vocals right up front but the pico placed the clapping hands up front too. the overall sound/bass was more visceral. You are there with Feist. That banjo clearer , more detailed ( you can hear the fingers sliding along on the strings) I like that...some do not. The predator had vocals up front and the clapping more back of the stage. Fun in that you are in the room watching the band from across the room.

 Handshake Drugs - Wilco : Both amps were very enjoyable with the pico have a deep controlled bass but the guitar was a little biting. The predator had the vocals way up front and almost sibilant. The Distortion at the end was sooooo good on the predator.

 Tu Sei / Vittorio Grigolo : Switching to some pop opera now and I expected that the pico's detail and mids would carry this song, but both were Very good in getting Vittorios rich voice in those power mid/highs that tenors can do. I switched to a Sarah Brightman /Andrea Bocelli song Time To Say Goodbye and was pleased again with both the pico and predator. Ms. Brightman seemed a touch more intimate tho on the predator.

 I enjoyed both of these dac/amp's very much and find them both musical and fun across a wide range of musical styles. The Predator has a slight warmer presentation, but detailed highs while the Pico does sound at times more Full and expansive. It's treble were more controlled, while the predator could get aggressive. Both have an excellent midrange...The bottom end on both can be fat and sassy or tight and...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 just depends on the song. To me neither is better...now to try some Juno Reactor/Congo Fury!

 The comments I have are straight from a notepad that I jotted down my immediate thoughts as the songs played. No going back and forth to dissect a tonal passage. Next will connect each to the speakers in my exercise room


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tako_tsubo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Great review Headphoneaddict. 
 My Pico arrived earlier this month and I have been listening to it strictly as my usb dac/amp out of a Dell Vostro playing apple lossless and 320mp3's. I've put on about 900 hrs on the Predator and have been enjoying the heck out of it the past few months, so it was time for the pico. I half expected it to blow the predator away as it seemed that the pico was often described as Lush, Musical, Rich and Smooth and there was no question that the pico's dac was its best asset...but, no, I was pleased to hear that these portable units are BOTH Lush, Musical, Rich and Smooth. It really just depends on the music that you are listening to and the Headphone (pl2500 for this study) 

 [snipped for length]

 I enjoyed both of these dac/amp's very much and find them both musical and fun across a wide range of musical styles. The Predator has a slight warmer presentation, but detailed highs while the Pico does sound at times more Full and expansive. It's treble were more controlled, whil ethe predator could get aggressive. Both have an excellent midrange...The bottom end on both can be fat and sassy or tight and...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 just depends on the song. To me neither is better...now to try some Juno Reactor/Congo Fury!

 The comments I have are straight from a notepad that I jotted down my immediate thoughts as the songs played. No going back and forth to dissect a tonal passage. Next will connect each to the speakers in my exercise room
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Great observations!


----------



## direcow

interesting... looks like the DAC really changes how the Pico performs... I'm still torn. =\


----------



## tako_tsubo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *onlychild* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 How does the Predator sound with the ESW9s? I have heard the ESW9s are warm sounding and so is the Predator. Is it too much warmth. 

 Thanks_

 

Listening to the ESW9 on the predator right now and they sound very good. It is not overly warm...listening to Tegan and Sara right now. The predators tendency toward more aggressive highs fills out the ESW9's in many folk/alt/rock songs.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

I have 311 hours on the D2, and I am now using my Woodied HF-1 with APS V3 cable at the moment, and all amps were driven by the USB DAC as before. So, I am revisiting it as promised with an extra 125 hours or so on it. I listened a lot on Monday and Tuesday with my Grados and Edition 9, and then took a 48 hour break while it burned in the final bit to reach 310 hours.

 While the D2 initially had a very similar sound signature to the Pico, my 183 hour impression of the D2 was that the bass was a bit boomy and uncontrolled, and it seemed a little brighter than the Pico. Now the bass has indeed tightened up since the last time I listened on the 18th when I compared the amps with more headphones. Not only is the D2 bass now less boomy and more controlled, but the high's are a little smoother too (but maybe still a tad brighter).

*With the extra hours on it, the D2 is clearly closer to the Pico than it is the Lyrix now*, as the Lyrix DAC is seeming to hold it back now. But, there is that final bit of transparency and smoothness that the Pico holds over D2 still. I would say the top three amps are within a few percentage points of each other, when listening with the HF-1 APS re-cabled woodies. There is just something about warm full bodied sound of the Predator that keeps me coming back for more. 

 So, I give the *Predator a 10/10*. I'll give the *Pico a 9.7/10* for opening the soundstage a bit and crisp detail, but with a cooler more analytical sound. The D2 has moved up from a 9.0 to a *9.4/10 for the D2 now*, while still missing some of the warmth of the Predator and the final bit of transparency of the Pico. I have to give the *Lyrix a 8.8/10* now. To me anything above an 8/10 is great but might not be a keeper if I have more than one amp sitting above 9/10.

 I would put the D1 (with the newest round of opamps) right up there with the D2 now (sound is quite close), except that I got it back after 2 weeks with a channel imbalance, so I have to open it up and swap opamps and determine if the problem is my fault, or I have t contact iBasso. The right channel is louder using the DAC by a good 3db or more, but with the analog input the L/R channels are balanced. It currently has the AD743x2 in it for main, LMH6643 buffers, and LTC6241HV in the DAC.


----------



## YtseJamer

Thanks a lot Larry for all the informations 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I have finally decided to order the Predator or the Pico in the next days. From what I read on the forums, the Predator will be slightly better that the Pico for my ALO-780Vs and my RS-1 ?

 Now I'll probably need to sell my Headsix and my AKG 271s to finance this new purchase.

 Oh my poor wallet once again


----------



## grawk

There comes a point where to decide which amp/dac you are going to get, you need to just listen to them, because everyone has different ears. Luckily, both RSA and headamp have generous return policies (not to mention great resale).


----------



## jamato8

It is remarkable how good these portables have gotten. The one thing about the Predator is the natural quality it imparts as it sends the music on its path to your ears. It seems to transcend its solid state construction. It is as if it is made out of a fine wood, like something that had an organic beginning in life. 

 Organic vs silicon.


----------



## meusickfrek

Jam, I love reading your posts, must be that NorCal air, I'll be back in two months


----------



## Manny Calavera

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pfillion* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks a lot Larry for all the informations 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I have finally decided to order the Predator or the Pico in the next days. From what I read on the forums, the Predator will be slightly better that the Pico for my ALO-780Vs and my RS-1 ?

 Now I'll probably need to sell my Headsix and my AKG 271s to finance this new purchase.

 Oh my poor wallet once again 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 



 If you buy the Predator,you'll be very surprised with the build quality and size,and the lifetime warranty doesnt hurt eithier!

 The battery life this thing spits out is tremendous,even when using large cans that normally just inhale juice at a fast rate.Also seriously consider getting the chassis in a off color,other then black.I got mine in Black and my Wife's in Red.The pics you may have seen online of the colored ones,just do not do the final product justice,at all.Just jaw droppingly sexy in red,or blue or green.Worth the extra coin for sure !


----------



## jamato8

I love the gold face and rear plate with a read body. It just speaks quality and is a real stand out. You can put it on display like a piece of art!


----------



## YtseJamer

Thanks for the advice 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Manny Calavera* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If you buy the Predator,you'll be very surprised with the build quality and size,and the lifetime warranty doesnt hurt eithier!

 The battery life this thing spits out is tremendous,even when using large cans that normally just inhale juice at a fast rate.Also seriously consider getting the chassis in a off color,other then black.I got mine in Black and my Wife's in Red.The pics you may have seen online of the colored ones,just do not do the final product justice,at all.Just jaw droppingly sexy in red,or blue or green.Worth the extra coin for sure !_


----------



## Hellenback

Quote:


 So, I give the Predator a 10/10. I'll give the Pico a 9.7/10 for opening the soundstage a bit and crisp detail, but with a cooler more analytical sound. The D2 has moved up from a 9.0 to a 9.4/10 for the D2 now, while still missing some of the warmth of the Predator and the final bit of transparency of the Pico. I have to give the Lyrix a 8.8/10 now. To me anything above an 8/10 is great but might not be a keeper if I have more than one amp sitting above 9/10. 
 

Certainly appears to be diminishing return territory, when you can get the Headstage Total USB for < $200! You can buy some nice gear (separate DAC? Arietta? HD650s?) or great music for the extra $300! To each his own, but a desktop _and_ a portable seems like a good idea to me.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Hellenback* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Certainly appears to be diminishing return territory, when you can get the Headstage Total USB for < $200! You can buy some nice gear (separate DAC? Arietta? HD650s?) or great music for the extra $300! To each his own, but a desktop and a portable seems like a good idea to me._

 

It's always about diminishing returns, and I think the leap from $200 portable DAC/amps to $500 portable DAC/amps is not huge but to some it is worth the cost (me 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ).

 In the $200 range, it is clear to me the D2 DAC is superior to the Lyrix DAC, for about the same price, but the Lyrix has those extra features that I love so much. If the DAC and ultimate/maxx sound quality are most important, then the Predator, Pico, and D2 are the ones to set your sights on. However, if the DAC is not that important, the Lyrix is a fantastic amp for your portable source and sounds very similar to the D2 and Pico when they run via the same analog input. 

 Also, the Lyrix DAC is still better than the headphone out of my Macbook or any of my ipods. With a better external DAC, like my HR Micro DAC or iMod, the Lyrix amp is very good.


----------



## thejoneser

Thanks for the great info! I've already paid for my Pico and expect it soon. Looks like I'll be ordering a Predator too, so as to have both flavors of sound.


----------



## jamato8

The Predator has the uncanny ability to capture the body and soul of the music. I keep hunting for words to define the sound but it isn't as easy as with some amps, even those that are very good as the Predator seems to transcend.


----------



## GiR

:O My Predator just arrived like 2 mins ago and my god I had no idea how tiny this really is. None of the pictures do justice to just how small and compact this little thing is!

 As for listening, need to run and grab myself a usb cable for it, cant find one with the right connector in the house 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 EDIT: Bleh, my cables work :/ was just mixed up cos it looked slightly different. Ah well


----------



## wired00

Sorry for slightly off topic but does anyone know if this opamp will work with the D2 viper?

 OPA2111 KP

 Details:
 8-pin DIP
 Dual precision DiFET OpAmp
 LOW NOISE: 100% Tested, 8nV/ÖHz max at 10kHz
 LOW BIAS CURRENT: 4pA max
 LOW OFFSET: 500mV max
 LOW DRIFT: 2.8mV/°C
 HIGH OPEN-LOOP GAIN: 114dB min
 HIGH COMMON-MODE REJECTION: 96dB min

http://focus.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/opa2111.pdf

 I had originally bought it from ebay to use with a Little Dott Mk1 but at the last second decided on a D2 instead :/ 

 I read in a opamp rolling thread how it was a great opamp. I hope it can work with the D2??


----------



## Manny Calavera

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *onlychild* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hey Manny, 

 How does the Predator sound with the ESW9s? I have heard the ESW9s are warm sounding and so is the Predator. Is it too much warmth. 

 Thanks_

 


 I am terribly sorry for taking so long to respond.

 Its damn near perfect with the ESW9's.The ESW9's are NOT 'warm' sounding IMHO.I find them nuetral if anything.Best can under a K for near any genre.
 I was not a beleiver in burn in until the ESW9's and Predator arrived... Both improved with use.

 I recently had the chance to hear the competition,and now my decision to get two Predators feels sooo much better.I think many of the peeps jumping on the other bandwagon are not getting thier moneys worth,imho.I dont own an army of amps like the OP,but have a handful,and have used a handful more on a few occasions.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

*UPDATE #4, 3/25/08 10:00PM - 2MOVE UPDATE*

 I just spent the last 7 hours with all the amps, and a well burned in 2MOVE from Skylab. I first listened them all (except the Lyrix) with the ALO modded HFI-780, then I switched to my APS re-cabled RS-1 for more detail and layering, and listened to everything again. 

 I used the same music as in the first test, but had to add a few more items: "Handel Messiah" conductor Christopher Hogwood, William Orbit "The Best of Strange Cargo", and various pop and hip hop artists from my kid's music.

 I have rough notes and am trying to put it into paragraph form. I will post the additon soon.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *wired00* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sorry for slightly off topic but does anyone know if this opamp will work with the D2 viper?

 OPA2111 KP

 Details:
 8-pin DIP
 Dual precision DiFET OpAmp
 LOW NOISE: 100% Tested, 8nV/ÖHz max at 10kHz
 LOW BIAS CURRENT: 4pA max
 LOW OFFSET: 500mV max
 LOW DRIFT: 2.8mV/°C
 HIGH OPEN-LOOP GAIN: 114dB min
 HIGH COMMON-MODE REJECTION: 96dB min

http://focus.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/opa2111.pdf

 I had originally bought it from ebay to use with a Little Dott Mk1 but at the last second decided on a D2 instead :/ 

 I read in a opamp rolling thread how it was a great opamp. I hope it can work with the D2??_

 

I have one, and when I tried it in my D1 it was my favorite for a while. But, when I reviewed the D1 vs Headsix and Lyrix, the D1 was too distant and far back from the stage, while the AD797 added more bass and was more forward and I stayed with that for 3 months - then I went with a little more neutral but still forward AD743. Both the AD797/743 require a 2:1 adapter and wont fit in the D2. I didn't try the OPA2111 in the D2 because of the distant soundstage.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

*UPDATE #5, 3/26/08 1:00AM - 2MOVE and MODIFIED D2 UPDATE*

 I just spent the last 9-10 hours with all the amps, and a well burned in 2MOVE from Skylab. I first listened them all with the ALO modded HFI-780, but my current sinus infection must be boosting the vampire wire 780's bass a bit too much vs 7-10 days ago. So, I switched to my APS re-cabled RS-1 for more detail and layering, and more balanced bass, and listened to everything again. Having just gotten the APS re-cabled RS-1 and also re-cabled my Edition 9, it is an eye opener into hearing that the ALO modded HFI-780 are darker and bassier and less open at quiet volumes than I remember with the first part of the review (they do open up at higher volumes but louder make my sinus headache worse). Right now I am preferring the RS-1 and Edition 9 vs my 780's with 666 hours on them (don't laugh, that's how many hours they have 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 ). 

 All Amps were reviewed as before, using only their USB DAC as source, via Macbook. The D2 was also tested with new opamps, with a LM6172 replacing the LT1364, and a THS4032 replacing the NE5532.

 I used the same music as in the first test, but had to add a few more items: "Handel Messiah" conductor Christopher Hogwood, William Orbit "The Best of Strange Cargo", James Asher "Shaman Drums", Guinea Pig "Cool Cats", Jack Johnson. I also threw in various pop artists from my kid's music in 128kbps to test with poor sources.

 The 2MOVE sounded closer to the Predator than the PICO, but with a little more treble extension and what I would call a slight midbass hump that I did not hear in the Predator other amps. The 2MOVE was what I would call warm and mellow - but not dark as it had a little bit more treble up top, in between the Predqtor and PICO (like the D2). The Predator seems to have a little better bass presence, especially helpful with the RS-1 which I feel are usually a little bass shy with bowls. The Predator's high end was also more suited to the RS-1 and HFI-780's which already have a strong treble presence. Bass and treble were not overpowering with any of the amps with the RS-1.

 The 2MOVE was more forward and up front than the Predator or Pico, which didn't help the soundstage with Handel's Messiah when listening via the RS-1. The 2MOVE still has excellent ambience and detail of the large venue, but you are definitely closer to the choir. The Predator's bigger soundstage was itself beaten by the Pico by a small margin, which produced a more 3D Cathedral space. With one small studio recording (Tsuyoshi Yamamoto on FIM XRCD), I can almost hear the drums and cymbals echo off the walls with the 2MOVE, but that coloration does not appear to be there with any of the other amps.

 The 2MOVE with piano and saxophone was sweet and seductive, like the Predator, where you could hear the warmth and the reedyness both at the same time. Where the 2MOVE also excelled was in acoustic music like Jack Johnson, like in "Badfish" on Look at the Love We Found, or "Times Like These" from the "On and On" album.

 ALL the amps did electronic music well, like William Orbit, Chris Spheeris, James Asher. And ALL the amps are particularly ruthless with poor quality Mp3, revealing the poor dynamics and compression artifacts. With ALL of the amps I heard a grating quality with my kids' 128kbps pop/hip hop like Plain White T's. The Fray, Cartel, Avril Lavigne, Boys like Girls, Chris Brown, Wyclef Jean, Rihanna, Fergie, etc, which rubbed me the wrong way. 

 Back to the good stuff. What surprised me was listening to Diana Krall - the PICO just sounds more natural and transparent with songs from "Girl in the Other Room". This album gets included every time I do a review because it is mastered with some sibilance or harsh highs still remaining, so it makes a good test album to see how the amps or headphones handle it. While the Pico handles this the best, just above the Predator, I thought the 2MOVE was the most irritating of the amps with this partitcular album, and this hurt it's score. However, with the low-bitrate kid's music above, it was no more irritating than any of the other amps.

 Now we get to the D2 with rolled opamps, using the LM6172 and THS4032 opamps, which would be about $25-30. The opamp change definitely changes the character if the amp, and it is less "Pico-Like" and more 2MOVE-like, except that it handles the one Diana Krall CD a little better/smoother, and it is slightly less forward, and the midbass hump is less. So, I guess that makes it more predator-like then? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The D2 does Saxophones VERY well now vs stock. It is like magic, wave the wand, and the D2 is transmorgrified into something else.

 Having picked out the areas where one amp excels over the others, or falls behind the others, it makes it even harder to rank the top 4 amps. The Predator, 2MOVE and modified D2 sound the closest to each other's sound signature or flavor. While the Pico and stock D2 sound the closest to each other's sound signature. _A similar sound signature is a "reminds me of" NOT a "sounds just like"._ That puts the amps in 2 camps, yet makes all the rankings fall between a 9.4/10 and a 10/10, and in my opinion too close to call based on sound alone.

 The D2 with rolled opamps I feel is a little better than the 2MOVE, while the 2MOVE is better than the stock D2. So, my ranking has a tie for 3rd, and a tie for 4th...

 1. RSA Predator (good bass and soundstage, more body, organic, full)
 2. D2 with rolled opamps (LM6172/THS4032 - balanced, not too forward, sweet/magical Saxophone, almost mesmerizing like Predator, almost tied)
 3. 2MOVE (sweet mids and saxophone, midbass hmmm, failed the bad mastering diana krall test, great detail and air, too large and heavy)
 3. PICO (smooth and transparent without coloration, Great DAC, won the bad mastering Diana Krall test, but nothing special with piano and sax like the others, too neutral as an amp - how is that possible, maybe not because there is something around 2Khz that is not right with RS-1)
 4. D1 with rolled opamps (AD743 main/LMH6643 buffer/LTC6241HV DAC - powerful, punchy, energetic, alive)
 4. D2 stock (thin in the middle, neutral with good bass,)
 5. Lyrix (good frequency balance, lacking details and air vs the others)
 6. D1 stock opamps (put AD823/NE5532/AD8616 back in right before I shipped it back for the 2-3db channel imbalance, too edgy and bright and distant)

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Raw notes jotted down while listening:* 
_
 Predator - ALO 780 = less treble extension, best bass
 Predator - RS-1
 Handel mellow, good soundstage
 Yamamoto piano good
 Diana Krall voice smoother than 2move
 Jazz at Pawn - smooth, natural live
 William Orbit - punchy

 2MOVE - ALO 780 like Predator with more treble, mid bass hump
 2MOVE RS-1
 Handel mellow forward
 Yamamoto good piano
 Diana Krall good bass, voice grating
 Jazz at Pawn sax sweet
 William Orbit - punchy

 PICO - ALO 780 clean bass, transparent
 PICO RS-1
 Handel more 3D soundstage, clear airy
 Yamamoto bright piano, wrong
 Diana Krall best voice
 Jazz at Pawn - saxaphone thin
 William Orbit - punchy

 D2 modded - ALO 780 like MOVE but not as bright & less midbass hump
 D2 modded RS-1
 Handel open slt more highs, violins closer than singer?
 Yamamoto less bright vs pico 
 Diana Krall not bad at all
 Jazz at Pawn - sax sweet/magical
 William Orbit - punchy_


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

I will never spend 9-10 hours with headphones on my head again - my ears are killing me, as the grado rub the ears wrong, and the 780 clamp too much. Ouch, I am tender. I'll have to stick with the STAX Lambda Signature and Edition 9 for the next couple of days, or my Livewires customs.


----------



## shinew

ouch, 9 hours is long time to be on headphones, i can't stand my hd600 on for more than 2-3hrs. I can listen to er4 all day though 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 seems to me the 2move offers the best bang for the buck. I wonder if i should buy a predator to compare it w/ my 2move and keep the one i like the most...

 BTW, which track & timing of the Diana Krall - The Gril in the Other Room are you refering to? I would like to check it out with my 2move. thanks.


----------



## MONVMENTVM

Wow nice review again.

 Did the D2 with the rolled opamps have time to burn in or are these fresh?


----------



## jamato8

Great job! thank you. The music and contrasts you indicate help. Amazing how far amps have come.


----------



## Skylab

Nice job Larry! This really is a great, helpful review.


----------



## tako_tsubo

Great information Larry! But 10 hours? give your ears a rest...sit in a tub of hot water in silence for awhile


----------



## mchang

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Manny Calavera* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think many of the peeps jumping on the other bandwagon are not getting thier moneys worth,imho._

 

Sigh. Why does your "success" have to come at the expense of other's "failures?"


----------



## mchang

Very good write-up. I enjoyed the comparisons with the different albums/genres and the notes provided. Go rest those ears!

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*UPDATE #5, 3/26/08 1:00AM - 2MOVE and MODIFIED D2 UPDATE*_


----------



## onlychild

Thanks for taking the time to do these reviews for us Larry.


----------



## YtseJamer

Great review Larry ! (You convinced me to send my RS-1 to Apuresound..
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 )

 BTW, I have received my Predator this morning ! Ordered Tuesday and received today


----------



## TheMarchingMule

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pfillion* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Great review Larry ! (You convinced me to send my RS-1 to Apuresound..
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 )

 BTW, I have received my Predator this morning ! Ordered Tuesday and received today 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I'm really thinking of getting my RS-2 re-cabled because the cheap cable is starting to bug me...

 And holy cow, that is a super fast shipping time. All the better for you though, eh?


----------



## YtseJamer

hehe 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'll post some pictures tonight, the amp is soooo beautiful and small 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *TheMarchingMule* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm really thinking of getting my RS-2 re-cabled because the cheap cable is starting to bug me...

 And holy cow, that is a super fast shipping time. All the better for you though, eh? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

*Here are my opamp rolling notes that I took as I rolled them in my D2 on 3/22 and 3/23 and listened.* I posted these in the D2 viper thread 3am 3/23/08. Since that time I put about 20-30 hours on the new opamps: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f5/iba...ml#post3983621



			
				HeadphoneAddict said:
			
		

> *1)* I am first listening to the ISL55002 in main (replaced the 1364) and and THS4032 in the second spot (replaced NE5532). This is really nice with the ALO modded 780's (in same room as sleeping wife, so no open phones).
> 
> It is not what I expected, but rather with strong bass, smooth highs that are less accentuated than stock when teamed with the 780, and it's very transparent. Pianos and snares are crisp and attack and decay is good. Drums sound good, and bass guitar is tight. Saxophone are nice but maybe a liittle of the warmth is missing on those. Diana Krall's voice in "Temptation" does not have sibilance, and that is my test track for sssssibilance. I have no trouble hearing the knocking artifacts from the piano in "Departure Bay", from pedals and such. Next, the 6172 x 2.
> 
> ...


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

I had a question about how many opamps go in the amp why more than one. From my limited knowledge, in 4-channel amps there is also an opamp in the ground channel = 2 total opamps. This is not 4 audio channels like quadrophonic, but 2 main and 2 ground channels.

 See the post above:

 I mentioned the LM6172 replaces the LT1364 (near the tip of the battery and by the 3.5mm jacks. I stated the THS4032 replaces the NE5532, which is closer to the tail end of the amp, to the side the battery. You just observe the orientation of pin 1 before you remove them, but if I recall pin one is closest to the 3.5mm jacks on the 1364, and closest to the battery on the 5532.

 If the chips you selected are SOIC (SOIC = solder on integrated circuit) and need to go on a single browndog DIP adapter (DIP = dual insertion process). HiFlight sells these pre-soldered for people, so PM him if you are not competant.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *shinew* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ouch, 9 hours is long time to be on headphones, i can't stand my hd600 on for more than 2-3hrs. I can listen to er4 all day though 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 seems to me the 2move offers the best bang for the buck. I wonder if i should buy a predator to compare it w/ my 2move and keep the one i like the most...

 BTW, which track & timing of the Diana Krall - The Gril in the Other Room are you refering to? I would like to check it out with my 2move. thanks._

 

I have 4 tracks from that CD I use for testing: title track Girl in the Other Room, Temptation, Black Crow, and Departure Bay.


----------



## Crackerman

Damn, this thread is really really tempting me into getting a Predator, it sounds exactly what I'm looking for, but I recently ordered a UHA3 and it has yet to turn up.

 To make matters worse I COULD afford, althought I'd be a little short for a couple of weeks.

 This stupid forum, I dunno.


----------



## wired00

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I had a question about how many opamps go in the amp why more than one. From my limited knowledge, in 4-channel amps there is also an opamp in the ground channel = 2 total opamps. This is not 4 audio channels like quadrophonic, but 2 main and 2 ground channels.

 See the post above:

 I mentioned the LM6172 replaces the LT1364 (near the tip of the battery and by the 3.5mm jacks. I stated the THS4032 replaces the NE5532, which is closer to the tail end of the amp, to the side the battery. You just observe the orientation of pin 1 before you remove them, but if I recall pin one is closest to the 3.5mm jacks on the 1364, and closest to the battery on the 5532.

 If the chips you selected are SOIC (SOIC = solder on integrated circuit) and need to go on a single browndog DIP adapter (DIP = dual insertion process). HiFlight sells these pre-soldered for people, so PM him if you are not competant._

 

thanks heaps addict you answered all my queries. i'll go ahead and order 1x LM6172 SOIC and 1x THS4032 SOIC for the D2. I'll also order a bunch of SO8 to 8-pin DIP Adapters so i can also try out my OPA2111's.SO8 to 8-pin DIP Adapter (p/n 970601) - 970601
 these are the right ones yeh? 

 I read in the other D2 thread about the duel SOIC to 8-pin dip where you solder a opamp on both sides of each adapter ... but i'll leave that for another day  Speaking of which, do you plan on trying that out?

 edit: typo replaced LT1364 with THS4032


----------



## YtseJamer

Here's a picture of my new toy


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *wired00* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_thanks heaps addict you answered all my queries. i'll go ahead and order 1x LM6172 SOIC and 1x LT1364 SOIC for the D2... 

 ...dip where you solder a opamp on both sides of each adapter ... but i'll leave that for another day  Speaking of which, do you plan on trying that out?_

 

You mean THS4032 because you already have a 1364.

 Someday I'd like to try the dual side with OPA627.


----------



## Jaw007

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pfillion* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Here's a picture of my new toy 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







_

 

Very nice in red.


----------



## mrarroyo

Nice work Larry, have you given any thougtht at using an AD8620 in the D2? I have one on the way, plus I already received two LM6172 and a couple of THS4032's. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 However my D2 only has about 340 hours of burn in and I am waiting for the 400 hour mark before I roll any op-amps.


----------



## wired00

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You mean THS4032 because you already have a 1364.

 Someday I'd like to try the dual side with OPA627._

 





 had a panic there, quickly checked my order and i HAD ordered the THS4032... just a typo in this post phew.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

pfillion, any chance you might be able to resize down to 800x600 or something


----------



## wired00

yay got my D2 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 playing my first song on the se530s - Bob marley Live Jamming. Amazing. Crowd cheering and clapping the beat all around me...back up singers sound like they're standing to my right, bob in front and band all around... 

 Directly comparying with and without the amp? just seems like i have my ears clogged with gunk without it. Im simply amazed how much it opens the headphones up, especially Mid to high just seem much clearer... bass feels warmer. Can't wait to try a few different opamps once its got 300+ hours

 I was mostly just expecting the hiss to be gone, but man...everything is enhanced. Oh and speaking of hiss... i can turn the volume to full with no song playing and its absolute silence. mmmmm

 Lovin' it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Time to burn them both in i guess


----------



## Crackerman

Emailed Ray Samuels about the Predator last night. My willpower is pathetic.

 Does anyone have any experience ordering from them outside the US?


----------



## YtseJamer

I'm in Montreal, Canada.

 Don't worry about the service, I have purchased the Predator Tuesday of this week and it's been delivered to me yesterday..
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Crackerman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Emailed Ray Samuels about the Predator last night. My willpower is pathetic.

 Does anyone have any experience ordering from them outside the US?_


----------



## YtseJamer

Done.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_pfillion, any chance you might be able to resize down to 800x600 or something 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_


----------



## Crackerman

Okay thanks. 

 I'm a little wary about having things sent all the way over to the UK at the moment because for some reason my UHA amp has been held up at customs.

 How long does it usually take for RS to reply, by the way?


----------



## YtseJamer

Couple of hours..

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Crackerman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Okay thanks. 

 I'm a little wary about having things sent all the way over to the UK at the moment because for some reason my UHA amp has been held up at customs.

 How long does it usually take for RS to reply, by the way?_


----------



## Kel Ghu

I have a pico... And now I want a predator cause of its bass! But I am a newb... Is there a whole lot of difference? Because I could barely hear the difference between my laptop and my pico at first, it's not obvious. I can hear now on some tracks, but it's still very subtle... I mean, I will not hear the difference if I don't concentrate. I am seeking the perfect portable amp w/ DAC there is suited for my needs. 

 Will I hear the difference with the pico if I buy the predator? Like I would if I bought another pair of headphones?


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Boy, that is a tough decision. They are both good, but do sound different to me. A lot of people don't hear these differences like some of us can. The pico is good, I just like the Predator a little more (after burn-in).

 I never planned to use the Pico for anything except as a portable DAC, otherwise I wouldn't have bought it. It is very clean and neutral, but I like a warm tubey sound like Predator and even 2Move as the final stage before my headphones. The PICO is great feeding my laptop music into my DarkVoice 336i in my basement rig. This way I can leave the Micro DAC with my bedside rig, and Apogee mini-DAC with my main rig. I almost bought a 2007 HR Microportable with DAC instead of Pico, but I was too curious.

 PS: Pico has lots of bass. It's the mids and highs that are most different.
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Kel Ghu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have a pico... And now I want a predator cause of its bass! But I am a newb... Is there a whole lot of difference? Because I could barely hear the difference between my laptop and my pico at first, it's not obvious. I can hear now on some tracks, but it's still very subtle... I mean, I will not hear the difference if I don't concentrate. I am seeking the perfect portable amp w/ DAC there is suited for my needs. 

 Will I hear the difference with the pico if I buy the predator? Like I would if I bought another pair of headphones?_


----------



## Hellenback

I've read a great deal of this thread but didn't see anywhere that you rolled any opamps with the Headstage Lyrix Total. It does have interchangeable opamps does it not?
 I know it uses the same AD8397 opamp stock that many other amps use, but am curious to know if there is any opamp you know of that might improve the lack of "air".


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

The Lyrix is as good as most of these amps if they are all using the line-in instead of built-in DAC. It sounds very similar to a D2 or Pico when the three are well burned in and used with my iMod. 

 However, the point of this review is using the DAC as the input for all of them, since most of all the other reviews of several amps DO NOT test the DAC. And, it's the Lyrix DAC that holds it back slightly. It is using the Burr Brown/TI PCM 2704 to convert USB to analog. An 8.8/10 is still an excellent score. 

 The other DAC/Amps in this review seem to use the TI USB chip to output S/PDIF into a better DAC chip instead of taking the analog out (e.g. Lyrix) - and so they sound better. The D2 uses the PCM2706 to output S/PDIF to a Wonfson WM8740 DAC, and the Pico uses the 2706 to output I2S to the a 24/96 up-converter (guessing an AD1896) and feeds that into the WM8740, etc...


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

PS: I didn't roll the Lyrix opamps because I LIKED the STOCK sound, I just wish it to have a better DAC (which is still clearly better than analog out of my Macbook).


----------



## Hellenback

Thanks for the reply. I understand a certain amount of this, just not the pre-conversion stage you mentioned concerning the 
 T1-> S/PDIF as opposed to the analog out if the Lyrix. I understand that the Lyrix uses an inferior chip to the ones in the other amps. (I think it is the same one that is used in the Aria, maybe implemented differently?). Do you know if the Lyrix line DAC performs the same as the internal one?
 I know it is the same DAC chip, just don't know if the extra travel length of the cable would degrade the sound any.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Hellenback* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks for the reply. I understand a certain amount of this, just not the pre-conversion stage you mentioned concerning the 
 T1-> S/PDIF as opposed to the analog out if the Lyrix. I understand that the Lyrix uses an inferior chip to the ones in the other amps. (I think it is the same one that is used in the Aria, maybe implemented differently?). Do you know if the Lyrix line DAC performs the same as the internal one?
 I know it is the same DAC chip, just don't know if the extra travel length of the cable would degrade the sound any._

 

I did a review and found them to be almost identical. There was maybe a slight improvement with the internal one, but I could not quantify it because it was so close.

 In my November 07 review, the D1 DAC was better, but it took a long while to find opamps that made the iBasso D1 DAC/amp combo sound as good or better than the Lyrix DAC/Amp combo. In that case it was the Amp holding the D1 back. Once I found the LT6234 for the D1 DAC section, and AD797 for main amp, with AD8397 as buffers, the D1 as a combo DAC/Amp was just above the Lyrix as a DAC/Amp.

 Later I found the HR Micro DAC sounds even better than the rolled-opamp D1 when D1 is used as a DAC line-out only. The D1 is the only one with line-out and headphone out, while the HeadRoom is line out only, and all the rest are headphone out. So, compared to the HR, the D1 DAC section (when used as DAC line-out only) is not as warm and full as a DAC as the headroom. But, then the D1 as a DAC/Amp combo was back near the top again when I made some changes again (LTC6241 DAC section, AD743 main, LMH6643 buffers).

 I need to play with the opamp in the D1 DAC section more. Once I get it back from China for the channel imbalance, I think I will try the LM6172 and LMH6643 or LMH6655 in the DAC of the D1 next, because it is still too cold as a DAC. I did try the D1 headphone out to drive my home amp once, instead of the line-out, and headphone out sounded more full and warmer than line out. (then i returned the stock opamps and shipped it to iBasso).


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

*I replied to a PM that I thought I would share, which kinda goes back to what I said in post #92 re: Predator vs Pico.*

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PM* 
_Hi, I'm thinking about buying a DAC/amp and I'm torn between the Pico and The Predator.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 So I would like some of your opinion, if you dont mind.

 I see you rated the Predator as your first choice in your Mini Review. I would like to know if the difference between the Pico and Predator is purely preference or does the Predator really outperforms the Pico by a large margin?
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




(whether as an amp or DAC)

 Personally I prefer a colder sounding system and wide soundstage. So I felt that the Pico should suite me better. But alot of Predator owner seems to agree that the Predator sounds like a home amp, which is again very tempting
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I own a Hornet amp and would like to know if it's worth the upgrade to the Predator? Or should I go for another signature? 

 Thanks in advance!_

 

I would say it is purely preference on the difference, not a performance difference.

 I have never heard a Hornet, but Skylab and others that have suggested to get a Hornet if you don't need the DAC and want the RSA "house sound" at a more affordable price, so I assume they sound similar. From the descriptions I've read, I wanted to assume the Predator is more like the earlier Hornet non-M with it's punchier sound, but nobody who recommends the Hornet instead has specified that. Yet, in amp only reviews I see the Predator ranked higher than Hornet. Confusing to me too.

 The Predator does WALK ALL OVER my 800+ hour Tomahawk, which I finally sold after the Predator, and the TH is a great amp for the tiny size and huge battery life. Predator does NOT walk all over the other top 3 amps in my review though (2MOVE, Pico, and D2 new opamps and stock). It is just different, and that is why I had such a hard time ranking them.

 The Pico is a very nice amp, is not lacking in power, and it sounds like it is exactly what you are looking for based on your comments.

 Larry


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

In looking into the numbers more, I can't say these numbers really mean anything. Some of the ones for sale have been sold multiple times. In one case, there is a Pico that is on its 4th owner. I am the 3rd owner of my Pico #11.

 The wait time required for the Pico likely encourages people who want to try one to look to buy one used, rather than buy one from Justin and possibly return it. I referred to that issue when I said the Predator didn't have a wait list. 

 The wait list also discourages people from returning amps to Justin, as they can quickly sell it to someone else for what they paid. Justin tells me that the rate of return on the Pico, and all amps, is less than 3%. I am impressed by that. I am also in the group of people who are keeping their Pico.

 Since well over 90% of Justin's sales are over the internet, it's not surprising to see more sold over the internet market as well.

 The Pico still has THE most impressive USB DAC in the price range, and the neutrality that I go on about so much allows me to have an excellent DAC for my basement rig, without buying another mini-DAC or HR Ultra Micro DAC for a lot more money. Being able to use it on USB on both PC and Mac is what won me over to the Pico, because the Apogee Duet is Mac firewire only, while in the same price range.

 So, I hope this clears things up, and I am sorry for my poorly researched sales numbers that I posted.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *original post before editing* 
_Here is some fun I had today:

 Searching the Amplifier For Sale Forums, I came up with 15 hits for the word Predator but only 5 were FS/sold/IC. Many stated selling for the money only.

 There are 48 hits for the word Pico in the Amp FS forum - and out of 48 hits for the word Pico, 18 were FS/Sold/IC. 

 That is about 3.4x more people are selling off Picos than Predators, but if I recall about the same number have shipped. 

 There were 11 by people who wanted to buy or trade for Pico after they were released, and were paying outright or selling/trading to get one. It looked like 2 people were WTB the Predator (no waiting list). 

 Two ads that I stumbled upon were someone who sold their Pico because they liked the Predator more, and one where they sold both Pico and Predator. The rest of the hits I found were people discussing that they had one or the other ordered or in hand, or in their sig line._


----------



## Andrew_WOT

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That is about 3.4x more people are selling off Picos than Predators, *but if I recall about the same number have shipped*. _

 

Is that right, accordingly to the data I've seen, Pico outsells Predator by quite a margin? How many Predators were sold already?


----------



## frozenice

The numbers look pretty close to me. Ray sold a few more than the 200 he allocated for the intro price by the end of Jan/08 and according to the Pico sponsored thread Justin is getting the parts ready for #300. If these numbers are correct the number of people with either one should be close to the same.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

See my edited post #99 above.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

for those who missed it, or are only reading copies of new posts that are emailed to them:

 In looking into the numbers more, I can't say those numbers really mean anything. Some of the ones for sale have been sold multiple times. In one case, there is a Pico that is on its 4th owner. I am the 3rd owner of my Pico #11.

 The wait time required for the Pico likely encourages people who want to try one to look to buy one used, rather than buy one from Justin and possibly return it. I referred to that issue when I said the Predator didn't have a wait list. 

 The wait list also discourages people from returning amps to Justin, as they can quickly sell it to someone else for what they paid. Justin tells me that the rate of return on the Pico, and all amps, is less than 3%. I am impressed by that. I am also in the group of people who are keeping their Pico.

 Since well over 90% of Justin's sales are over the internet, it's not surprising to see more sold over the internet market as well.

 The Pico still has THE most impressive USB DAC in the price range, and the neutrality that I go on about so much allows me to have an excellent DAC for my basement rig, without buying another mini-DAC or HR Ultra Micro DAC for a lot more money. Being able to use it on USB on both PC and Mac is what won me over to the Pico, because the Apogee Duet is Mac firewire only, while in the same price range.

 So, I hope this clears things up, and I am sorry for my poorly researched sales numbers that I posted.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

I got a second STAX SRM-1 Mk2 for my basement rig, and the Pico seems to work fairly well as just a DAC feeding the STAX amp with SR-Lambda normal bias (which are fairly warm). So I tried my SR-5N (gold) and it was like "wow" - fast and punchy with mids like sweet honey.

 Interestingly, the D2 isn't getting used much, since it is a bit bigger than the Predator velcro'd to my 3G nano, and because I am loving my TTVJ millet hybrid portable with iMod and RS-1 sooooo very much. Grados -n- toobs, yum...

 I am just loving the music.


----------



## psilu001

I have a question. Could D2 use AC adapter all day? Is it safe for D2? Or could damage the D2?


----------



## jamato8

You can leave it plugged in all the time. I never unplug mine, well when I take it out I do or I use a really, really long cord.


----------



## wired00

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *psilu001* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have a question. Could D2 use AC adapter all day? Is it safe for D2? Or could damage the D2?_

 

I use mine all day plugged in at work and haven't had any issues


----------



## psilu001

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *wired00* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I use mine all day plugged in at work and haven't had any issues_

 

Thank you.
 But I still have some question about that.
 Is the battery always charging when i used D2 by AC adapter?
 could it damage the battery because the battery always been charged?
 Or the battery would not charge when I use the D2?


----------



## wired00

I've looked at mine a few times throughout the day and it seems to always have the green LED on which means its fully charged. I don't think you'll be reducing the battery life by using it in this way.


----------



## MONVMENTVM

The D2 has a charging circuit which takes care of charging and protecting the battery so there is nothing to worry about.


----------



## Downer

Great review. I was wondering one thing it is clear that Pico's DAC is superior to any of these amps that you have reviewed, so the amp section is holding it back from being the best portable DAC+AMP combo ever? Am I right or DAC does not play a important role as the amp does in the portable world ??? Thanks...


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

I just think the Pico sounds better driving an amp than driving headphones, but it is still a very good amp - the amp is not holding it back, it just doesn't have the sound signature I am looking for. Neither did the D2. But at least I was able to roll new opamps into the D2 to get the sound signature I wanted.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

PS: in other words, with a particular reviewer the Pico doesn't have to do anything wrong to not take 1st place, and 1st place can go to things that don't do everything right. With another reviewer the Pico will be first. When one amp scores a 9.7 and one is a 10.0, it all comes down to preference and synergy, not which is better.

 Most of the reviews out there only looked at amps with analog input while I wanted to look at the whole package and what it has to offer, meaning feeding it through the USB. The rank was based on how the sound coming out of my headphones made me feel, in terms of getting lost in music that sounded real and accurate.


----------



## Downer

Thanks for the responses. I am guessing Predator's analog sounds better that its DAC. While Pico's DAC sounds better than its analog. How would you comment on this ??? Thank you...


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Downer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks for the responses. I am guessing Predator's analog sounds better that its DAC. While Pico's DAC sounds better than its analog. How would you comment on this ??? Thank you..._

 

I don't know how to answer that question - I use the Predator most with my iMod and Livewires, and the D2 with my laptop and whatever phone is on hand, and Pico as DAC only into to my tube amp rig in the basement. It's just what feels right to me. But, that doesn't change my ranking when driven by their DACs and looking at the whole package. Read into that what you will


----------



## wired00

For anyone using the se530's here's what i found when testing a few different opamps with the D2, if anyones interested 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 To be honest I wasn't expecting much difference with IEM. I thought most change would be in open or closed cans...this is probably true to some extent but I personally noticed huge differences in both low and highs.

 I was happy last night to finally solder my first opamps to the little IC to 8 dip converters - LM6172 & THS4032. Damn those things are too small! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I've now tested using: 

 1\
 main socket\ LT1364 (stock)
 second socket\ NE4432 (stock)

 2\
 main socket\ OPA2111
 second socket\ OPA2111

 3\
 main socket\ LM6172
 second socket\ THS4032
 Larry suggested this setup mostly for a livewire/grado sounding setup but i liked what he said about the opamps so wanted to test with se530's too 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I've only had time to REALLY listen to one song
 Interpol - Hands Away

 I chose this song because it has nice vocals, riffs, bass, its quite short, i know it well and it also has quite a busy section around 1:50 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Here's the song:
YouTube - Interpol-Hands away
 2:10, is where I'm referring below to the bass guitar kicking in (or evidently not with stock) and throughout the song you can clearly hear the cymbal I'm referring too. Of course I wasn't using youtube as a reference track! lossless was used. I just wanted to link the track so you know what style Im listening to when i give my opinions 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 main socket\ OPA2111
 second socket\ OPA2111
 So much bass...more than any of the other setups. nice separation, highs were nice and live sounding. Instruments sounded very spread out...very wide soundstage but sounded nice with this track. High hat sounded clear and live, bass guitar was very pronounced along with the kick drum. 

 I also listened all day yesterday at work with this setup and electronica was nice. Very full bass. Couldn't complain 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Of course I wasn't paying full attention but certainly noticed the nice bass.

 main socket\ LM6172
 second socket\ THS4032
 Nice bass again, not quite such a wide sound stage as the 2x OPA2111. Cymbals sounded fantastic just like I was watching the drummer hit the high hat live. Bass guitar was clearly pronounced sounded great. Kick drum clear. Vocals were fantastic.

 One thing interesting with this setup is that there wasn't a confused sound when all instruments were playing. I could clearly distinguish each instrument. I could also distinguish with the OPA2111's but the bass was a little heavy with this style music i thought...

*Edit: * forgot to mention, one amazing change with this opamp setup is that in certain rhythm guitar riffs you could CLEARLY hear the electric guitars distortion ... you know the classic electric guitar distortion when playing through a PA speaker? But not just that...it sounded so live. I loved it. I think its characters like this which the different opamps emphasis. Subtle things which add together to improve certain tracks. Anyway, I'd Never heard this in the song... i was amazed. Well...so amazed that I forgot while writing this 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 main socket\ LT1364 (stock)
 second socket\ NE4432 (stock)
 The standard setup sounded fairly rubbish when directly comparing. Its strange because up until now I thought it sounded fantastic stock!

 Basically, bass was non existent in comparison. At certain points in the song i knew I could clearly distinguish the kick drum & bass guitar with the other setups. As stock I could barely hear the kick drum, and bass guitar was a no show. Vocals sounded quite good but the high hat was shocking. It was really bright and just didn't sound "live" like the others did.... i don't know but it wasn't as nice over all. I hope it wasn't just a mental "oh thats stock it can't be good!!" 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Anyway I know the song well and recently saw Interpol so know how the sound engineers want them to sound live. I remember the bass was very nice and full which was just how setup 2 & 3 sounded 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'll keep listening to the LM6172 & THS4032 today but will listen again more scrutinizing tonight with a couple other tracks

 Other setups I'm keen to try based on Larry's suggestions are:
 2x LM6172
 &
 1\ ISL55002
 2\ THS4032

 I can't track down the ISL55002 atm though, anyone want to get rid of one (and another LM6172) and can ship to australia?


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

I was happy to stumble upon the LM6172/THS4032 combo, and I might get to trying more combinations this weekend too


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

wired00,

 Thanks for your feedback and testing of different opamp combos. I have one OPA2111 that I might try out, and I am also getting some LMH6622 to try, as well as having a 2:1 over/under adapter made with OPA627 soldered to it.

 Let us know what other combos are good!


----------



## wired00

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I was happy to stumble upon the LM6172/THS4032 combo, and I might get to trying more combinations this weekend too 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

ahh mate im loving that combo. Rock especially just sounds fantastic. There seems more detail which wasn't there before. Again, High hats rattle and sound, electric guitar distortion, kick drum it all just sounds much more live.

 For the last couple hours I've been listening to some electronic. I'm thinking that the 2xOPA2111 setup was really nice for that though so I'll give that another try tonight but for now, LM6172/THS4032 combo is staying for some time


----------



## sum1

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't know how to answer that question - I use the Predator most with my iMod and Livewires, and the D2 with my laptop and whatever phone is on hand, and Pico as DAC only into to my tube amp rig in the basement. It's just what feels right to me. But, that doesn't change my ranking when driven by their DACs and looking at the whole package. Read into that what you will 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Just curious, how did you separate the amp and DAC for the pico? Does it have a line out that bypasses the amp?


----------



## neezee

thx for the review...


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sum1* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just curious, how did you separate the amp and DAC for the pico? Does it have a line out that bypasses the amp?_

 

I have to use the Pico like a pre-amp with variable volume out. It seems to like driving amps as well as headphones, and with low gain it has plenty of output to act as a line-out.


----------



## Kel Ghu

So I finally bought a Predator to compare it to my Pico. It has only a 100hr but I already pretty much agree with the review.
 The bass of the Predator is definitly a bit different, more punchy and tighter, even, harder. But it doesn't sound deeper to me. For exemple, on Marvin Gaye "Got to give it up", the bass drum response is at a higher frequency with the Predator, more in the high bass than low bass... Which one got it right? The pico or the predator?


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Kel Ghu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So I finally bought a Predator to compare it to my Pico. It has only a 100hr but I already pretty much agree with the review.
 The bass of the Predator is definitly a bit different, more punchy and tighter, even, harder. But it doesn't sound deeper to me. For exemple, on Marvin Gaye "Got to give it up", the bass drum response is at a higher frequency with the Predator, more in the high bass than low bass... Which one got it right? The pico or the predator?_

 

Based on my listening during burn-in of the large cap inside, I don't think that question can be answered till the Predator has 2 weeks of 24/7 running on it (350 hours). I didn't think it was anything super-special till after that point, and 600 hours would be what the manufacturer recommends.

 I would listen for 1-2 hours, and then let it run till the next night without listening, then listen again for 1-2 hours, and repeated that up to 1100 hours. I actually posted the run-time log in another predator thread. Between 400-600 hours is when it started to sound more like a desktop amp to me. I heard minor refinements after 600 hours, all the way to 1,000 hours, but nothing major after 600-700 hours. But Jamato8 heard refinements in bass and power output handling all the way through 2,000 hours. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 So, I vote you leave it running for another 7-10 days and listen again, and then enjoy it from that point forward (unless you just have to have the best sound possible as soon as possible, then put 700-1,000 hours on it by running constantly 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 )


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

PS: Burn-in Method.

 I usually burn-in with music. I plug the amp and a source into power, and then run my laptop or mp3 player 24 hours a day on repeat. I turn off the amp for about 2-3 hours during the day. 

 You can also download both a 20 minute pink noise sound file (hiss with all sound frequencies at once), and a 2 minute digital silence file from the internet, put them on a media player or a CD, and run both sound files continuously. The silence lets the amps and headphones cool off. Download here Michael Knowles: Extras

 This download also includes some test tones, and you can listen to each amp or headphones at various low bass frequencies (starting at 16Hz, then 20, 25, 31.5, 40, 50, etc). My HFI-780 play down to 16-20 vs Grado rolling off below 30.


----------



## Kel Ghu

RE: Burnin

 You should get this sound generator. It has White Noise (all freq at same amplitude), Pink Noise (All freq, decreasing amplitude with freq), Test Tone and Sweep. It also has a rest period, that let you set burnin and silence period (I do default, 30min of silence every 2 hours)

Download section for Burninwave generator

 Also check out the website, it has sound files too. I am pretty surprise this website is not more known.

 I tested my hear with it. I can hear upto 20KHz (but I have to turn up the volume a lot) then nothing, then around 26KHz and up I can hear again... But the sound is wierd, because it does not sound as high as from 15KHz to 20KHz. Try the sweep upto 50KHz over 10-15 seconds.


----------



## meusickfrek

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *wired00* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_For anyone using the se530's here's what i found when testing a few different opamps with the D2, if anyones interested 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 To be honest I wasn't expecting much difference with IEM. I thought most change would be in open or closed cans...this is probably true to some extent but I personally noticed huge differences in both low and highs.

 I was happy last night to finally solder my first opamps to the little IC to 8 dip converters - LM6172 & THS4032. Damn those things are too small! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I've now tested using: 

 1\
 main socket\ LT1364 (stock)
 second socket\ NE4432 (stock)

 2\
 main socket\ OPA2111
 second socket\ OPA2111

 3\
 main socket\ LM6172
 second socket\ THS4032
 Larry suggested this setup mostly for a livewire/grado sounding setup but i liked what he said about the opamps so wanted to test with se530's too 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I've only had time to REALLY listen to one song
 Interpol - Hands Away

 I chose this song because it has nice vocals, riffs, bass, its quite short, i know it well and it also has quite a busy section around 1:50 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Here's the song:
YouTube - Interpol-Hands away
 2:10, is where I'm referring below to the bass guitar kicking in (or evidently not with stock) and throughout the song you can clearly hear the cymbal I'm referring too. Of course I wasn't using youtube as a reference track! lossless was used. I just wanted to link the track so you know what style Im listening to when i give my opinions 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 main socket\ OPA2111
 second socket\ OPA2111
 So much bass...more than any of the other setups. nice separation, highs were nice and live sounding. Instruments sounded very spread out...very wide soundstage but sounded nice with this track. High hat sounded clear and live, bass guitar was very pronounced along with the kick drum. 

 I also listened all day yesterday at work with this setup and electronica was nice. Very full bass. Couldn't complain 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Of course I wasn't paying full attention but certainly noticed the nice bass.

 main socket\ LM6172
 second socket\ THS4032
 Nice bass again, not quite such a wide sound stage as the 2x OPA2111. Cymbals sounded fantastic just like I was watching the drummer hit the high hat live. Bass guitar was clearly pronounced sounded great. Kick drum clear. Vocals were fantastic.

 One thing interesting with this setup is that there wasn't a confused sound when all instruments were playing. I could clearly distinguish each instrument. I could also distinguish with the OPA2111's but the bass was a little heavy with this style music i thought...

*Edit: * forgot to mention, one amazing change with this opamp setup is that in certain rhythm guitar riffs you could CLEARLY hear the electric guitars distortion ... you know the classic electric guitar distortion when playing through a PA speaker? But not just that...it sounded so live. I loved it. I think its characters like this which the different opamps emphasis. Subtle things which add together to improve certain tracks. Anyway, I'd Never heard this in the song... i was amazed. Well...so amazed that I forgot while writing this 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 main socket\ LT1364 (stock)
 second socket\ NE4432 (stock)
 The standard setup sounded fairly rubbish when directly comparing. Its strange because up until now I thought it sounded fantastic stock!

 Basically, bass was non existent in comparison. At certain points in the song i knew I could clearly distinguish the kick drum & bass guitar with the other setups. As stock I could barely hear the kick drum, and bass guitar was a no show. Vocals sounded quite good but the high hat was shocking. It was really bright and just didn't sound "live" like the others did.... i don't know but it wasn't as nice over all. I hope it wasn't just a mental "oh thats stock it can't be good!!" 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Anyway I know the song well and recently saw Interpol so know how the sound engineers want them to sound live. I remember the bass was very nice and full which was just how setup 2 & 3 sounded 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'll keep listening to the LM6172 & THS4032 today but will listen again more scrutinizing tonight with a couple other tracks

 Other setups I'm keen to try based on Larry's suggestions are:
 2x LM6172
 &
 1\ ISL55002
 2\ THS4032

 I can't track down the ISL55002 atm though, anyone want to get rid of one (and another LM6172) and can ship to australia? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

OK, this puts everything into perspective. I know Larry and Hiflight have given their perspective (much appreciated) but it's the description of the stock opamps that make sense. I have hd580 and have heard that the bass is loose if not amplified properly and the highs can be harsh. Now I'm thinking I need to do some rolling
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, that 6172/4032 setup sounds awsome, I'm just a little worried bout soldering, serious noob here. I heard the set is about $25.00, is this correct. If anyone gets around to finding a set of opamps that sound just as good that need no soldering I sure would like to know about it. Off topic, Paradise radio streams great sounding music!!


----------



## wired00

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *meusickfrek* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_OK, this puts everything into perspective. I know Larry and Hiflight have given their perspective (much appreciated) but it's the description of the stock opamps that make sense. I have hd580 and have heard that the bass is loose if not amplified properly and the highs can be harsh. Now I'm thinking I need to do some rolling
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, that 6172/4032 setup sounds awsome, I'm just a little worried bout soldering, serious noob here. I heard the set is about $25.00, is this correct. If anyone gets around to finding a set of opamps that sound just as good that need no soldering I sure would like to know about it. Off topic, Paradise radio streams great sounding music!!_

 

yeah im pretty noob with soldering too 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ... just make sure you get a soldering iron with fine tip and also fine solder. you'll also need some solder braid to remove solder incase you bridge any pins. the 8pin SOIC opamps are REALLY tiny 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 you'll just need a bunch of these (SO8 to 8-pin DIP Adapter (p/n 970601) - 970601) which convert the Surface mount opamp to plug into the larger 8pin DIP sockets of the amp. Brown dog shipping is dirt cheap, was $1 shipped to AUS 

 Also, make absolute certain you plug the opamps in the correct way! take note of pin1, even draw with a perminent market on a compenent closest to it so you remember after removing the stock opamp 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Yeah each opamp should only be $3 or $4US. I bought from a distributer via the national site (i ended up buying through RS Components)

National Semiconductor, High-Performance Analog for Energy-Efficient PowerWise Designs

 Hope that helps a little

 PS: browndog had a little advice on how to solder surface mount parts + videos
faq


----------



## meusickfrek

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *wired00* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_yeah im pretty noob with soldering too 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ... just make sure you get a soldering iron with fine tip and also fine solder. you'll also need some solder braid to remove solder incase you bridge any pins. the 8pin SOIC opamps are REALLY tiny 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 you'll just need a bunch of these (SO8 to 8-pin DIP Adapter (p/n 970601) - 970601) which convert the Surface mount opamp to plug into the larger 8pin DIP sockets of the amp. Brown dog shipping is dirt cheap, was $1 shipped to AUS 

 Also, make absolute certain you plug the opamps in the correct way! take note of pin1, even draw with a perminent market on a compenent closest to it so you remember after removing the stock opamp 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Yeah each opamp should only be $3 or $4US. I bought from a distributer via the national site (i ended up buying through RS Components)

National Semiconductor, High-Performance Analog for Energy-Efficient PowerWise Designs

 Hope that helps a little

 PS: browndog had a little advice on how to solder surface mount parts + videos
faq_

 

Thanks for all the great info and links, for those prices it's a no brainer, ordering parts now! Thanks again


----------



## Jaw007

Thanks for the info.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

It's easier to PM HiFlight about doing the soldering for you. The LM6172 can be had in DIP form, not just SOIC. The THS4032 I have is an SOIC on DIP adapter that HiFlight made for me.

 This combo also seems to be an excellent combination for the Podectomized IM716 with 47-69 ohm resistors, and producing terrific bass even up to 102 ohms added.


----------



## meusickfrek

Does it matter which LM6172 you get, I went to the national semi site and the part numbers have Letters after the numbers (LM6172xxx).


----------



## wired00

the national site isn't very clear on the coatings and metals used but usually different letters on the end mean this (from what i figured out)

 also the N or M postfix is referring to whether the component is a DIP or SOIC type. DIP is a larger component that will plug straight into the DIP socket on your amp, SOIC means it must be surface soldered onto an adapter before it will fit into the 8DIP socket on your amp.

 but usually there is also MMX or MX etc, this is referring to the metal used in the connectors (i think?)


----------



## Kel Ghu

I noticed that the best bass I've had is by connecting both pico and predator together, with Pico as a DAC. Punch and definition of the predator and deepness of the Pico. Though my pred has only 160hr on it.


----------



## kostalex

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Kel Ghu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I noticed that the best bass I've had is by connecting both pico and predator together, with Pico as a DAC. Punch and definition of the predator and deepness of the Pico. Though my pred has only 160hr on it._

 

Man, you just answered the highly-discussed question "Pico or Predator"!


----------



## Elluzion

Thanks for this great review!!!


----------



## Kel Ghu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kostalex* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Man, you just answered the highly-discussed question "Pico or Predator"!_

 

Oh.. I missed that word... "or"... hmmm...


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My findings of the 4 amps rankings is un-chaged with the HF-1, HD600 or Edition 9. 

 I find the Pico does add some more soundstage to the RS-2, but at the expense of the bass they need from the Predator. I can get the bass back switching the RS-2 from bowls to flats, but then I lose some of the soundstage I gained._

 

In doing my review of the Travagans Green and White USB DAC/Amps, tonight *I found myself listening to the Denon D2000 with APS v2 cable and the Pico as a comparison, and there seems to be some positive synergy there that I am liking. I'll have to explore this further, but it is bedtime now.* 

 Just thought I would throw that out there, but I wont say more right now because my review is not ready. With less than 60 hours on the Travagans, I have heard some subtle decreases in bass with the Green yesterday but that has come back, and some sibilance in the White that has vanished today, but I am not sure they have settled down yet (the Red has remained superb throughout). I am thinking they might be appropriate to add to this review, along with my Micro Stack which is up to 300 hours, but I will probably have to put them in their own review as desktop amps. I'll link to that when done in the next week or two.


----------



## mojolo

ooh...highly looking forward to reading about the Travagans!


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Elluzion* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks for this great review!!!_

 

No problem, thank you!


----------



## robojack

Larry, that was a FANTASTIC review. I don't think I've enjoyed reading an entire thread as much as this one. The step-by-step observations you've made really keep us involved in your journey to determine the best of the amp/dac's you reviewed. I could almost picture the struggle you went through, debating whether the Pico and Predator should be on top, as both have their strengths. 

 Just so you know, I've purchased a Predator from someone on this forum since reading this! I'll be recommending this thread to anyone else who is wondering what portable amp/dac they should get, and let them be the judge of what is best for them.

 Cheers.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mrarroyo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Nice work Larry, have you given any thougtht at using an AD8620 in the D2? I have one on the way, plus I already received two LM6172 and a couple of THS4032's. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 However my D2 only has about 340 hours of burn in and I am waiting for the 400 hour mark before I roll any op-amps. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





_

 

I have a couple of AD8620 on SOIC to DIP adapters that I bought on 4/10/08 that should be here from Hong Kong soon. They made to to NY and left there on the 15th.

 I also have them working on putting two SOIC OPA627 on a double sided 2:1 adapter, but the adapter was out of stock (in Hong Kong), so wait I must.

 In the meantime, they also shipped a pair of OPA627 DIP versions, to try in the D1 on my HiFlight 2:1 adapter, in place of the AD743's.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Robojack, thanks for the kind words.

 I've been sick, as has my whole family, and my next review of 3 desktop headphone amps is killing me. So many options to cover, including speakers and electrostatic headphone transformer on the speaker terminals, etc... I just have to pace myself, I am not getting any younger - at 46 I feel like I'm 80.


----------



## mrarroyo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_...I also have them working on putting two SOIC OPA627 on a double sided 2:1 adapter, but the adapter was out of stock (in Hong Kong), so wait I must.

 In the meantime, they also shipped a pair of OPA627 DIP versions, to try in the D1 on my HiFlight 2:1 adapter, in place of the AD743's._

 

You can get the mounted OPA627 from Browndog.


----------



## wired00

whats meant to be great about the opa627?


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *wired00* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_whats meant to be great about the opa627?_

 

Well, OPA627 is supposed to be very clean and natural sounding, and many high end manufacturers that don't have discrete analog outputs use the 627. It might be cool to try a Burson Discrete Opamp in the Travagans if it would fit, or wasn't so expensive.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

On another note, I've been asked to expand on my comments about "Positive Synergy with Pico and Denon D2000."

 I've discussed elsewhere that my D2000 with APS v2 cable are great headphones, but they are a little dull or boring at times, like a closed HD600. A good amp can wake them up, and I've found that the Pico gives them some "Zing" that makes them a little more exciting, so I don't have to go to my Grados or Ultrasones for "exciting" when listening to ripped music on my Macbook. The bass is well controlled but is powerful enough to make the skin around my ears vibrate, the mids are rich and detailed, and the highs have a sparkle to them. Skylab also seemed to think the Denon have a synergy with the Pico, but he tried it with stock D5000, of which my APS re-cabled D2000 would be similar to that.

 I think certain headphones are more picky about the amp you use, HD600 and D2000 included. My DarkVoice 336i that is so good with my Grados and Ultrasones didn't seem to give the HD600 and D2000 a lot of "Zing" - but my new Woo WA6 amp is burning-in to have a lot of energy with the Denon, once I got past 500-600 hours on the huge v-caps and blackgates capacitors.


----------



## qib

Would the predator be too warm for darth beyers? Or would the Pico provide a cleaner, airyness for the already warm darth beyers?


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

I find most portable amps too warm for Darths, but the Meier HeadSix/XXS has great synergy with the Darths, and just sounds much better when the two are combined together. The Tomahawk wasn't bad with the Darths, but it didn't fill in the mid-rage suckout like the HeadSix did. Once I found the great match between the Darths and HeadSix I stopped my search for a good portable amp for Darths, and I don't have the Darths anymore because they were just waaaay too picky about what amp to use with them.


----------



## qib

Oh right, thanks. I've been looking at future rigs for my laptop and got pulled into the pico or predator as i can use them for my portable headphones as well as laptop. What portable dac/amp would you recommend for the darths then? Thanks.


----------



## souperman

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *qib* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Oh right, thanks. I've been looking at future rigs for my laptop and got pulled into the pico or predator as i can use them for my portable headphones as well as laptop. What portable dac/amp would you recommend for the darths then? Thanks._

 

I think portable dac/amps have their place in the market, but personally I don't see why you wouldn't go for a desktop amp especially to drive darths? Just wondering. I used to be part of the portable dac/amp craze myself.

 Anyways, great review Larry! Can't believe this was the first time I ran across the review.


----------



## Kabeer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_On another note, I've been asked to expand on my comments about "Positive Synergy with Pico and Denon D2000."

 I've discussed elsewhere that my D2000 with APS v2 cable are great headphones, but they are a little dull or boring at times, like a closed HD600. A good amp can wake them up, and I've found that the Pico gives them some "Zing" that makes them a little more exciting, so I don't have to go to my Grados or Ultrasones for "exciting" when listening to ripped music on my Macbook. The bass is well controlled but is powerful enough to make the skin around my ears vibrate, the mids are rich and detailed, and the highs have a sparkle to them. Skylab also seemed to think the Denon have a synergy with the Pico, but he tried it with stock D5000, of which my APS re-cabled D2000 would be similar to that.

 I think certain headphones are more picky about the amp you use, HD600 and D2000 included. My DarkVoice 336i that is so good with my Grados and Ultrasones didn't seem to give the HD600 and D2000 a lot of "Zing" - but my new Woo WA6 amp is burning-in to have a lot of energy with the Denon, once I got past 500-600 hours on the huge v-caps and blackgates capacitors._

 

Ooh, Larry, I just realised something. Do you think this synergy with the D2000 is more to do with the amp part of the Pico, or the DAC?
 My primary use will be with an iMod, so its purely the amp sections synergy im interested in?

 Thanks!


----------



## qib

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *souperman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think portable dac/amps have their place in the market, but personally I don't see why you wouldn't go for a desktop amp especially to drive darths? Just wondering. I used to be part of the portable dac/amp craze myself.

 Anyways, great review Larry! Can't believe this was the first time I ran across the review._

 

I know but me wanting a portable is because of the plane rides that i would be making, where the closed darths will be used. I wouldn't mind getting a desktop amp and dac in the future but i'm still thinking in necessity mode, where minimizing costs are priority.

 Im also curious as to the setups that people use for the darths. So far what i was planning for a future rig is

 Laptop based rig:
 Jambo DAC
 Woo WA6 or Little dot MKIII/IV (Budget)
 Darth Beyer

 or maybe a pico dac with the darkvoice 337/336i? Then i can use the pico for plane rides. Any opinions?


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Kabeer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ooh, Larry, I just realised something. Do you think this synergy with the D2000 is more to do with the amp part of the Pico, or the DAC?
 My primary use will be with an iMod, so its purely the amp sections synergy im interested in?

 Thanks!_

 

The amp part.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *qib* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I know but me wanting a portable is because of the plane rides that i would be making, where the closed darths will be used. I wouldn't mind getting a desktop amp and dac in the future but i'm still thinking in necessity mode, where minimizing costs are priority.

 Im also curious as to the setups that people use for the darths. So far what i was planning for a future rig is

 Laptop based rig:
 Jambo DAC
 Woo WA6 or Little dot MKIII/IV (Budget)
 Darth Beyer

 or maybe a pico dac with the darkvoice 337/336i? Then i can use the pico for plane rides. Any opinions?_

 

I currently use the Pico to feed my Dark Voice 336i in my basement rig, and it works well (I use my Apogee mini-DAC to feed my Woo WA6 in my main rig).

 When I still had shallow cup Darths I would roll the 336i tubes to either a Raytheon 6SN7GT up front, or sometimes also a Raytheon 6080 in the rear tube, to tame and tighten up the bass a bit, while bolstering the mids and the treble that were a bit shy with the Darths. When it came to mid-priced closed cans, the Darths never sounded as good as the APS cabled D2000 or ALO modded HFI-780, with any amp. With most other headphones those tubes would be too dry and more like solid state in sound signature.


----------



## Sonic Icons

Would be nice if the reviewer or someone could post some basic information about these six amps (I feel almost guilty for asking "more, more" after the amazing amount of work already put in by the reviewer), such as:

 price
 weight, ounces
 dimensions, width x depth x height
 battery or power requirements
 front & rear panel controls, indicators, connectors

 I couldn't find this information in the earlier posts, although I may have overlooked some.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sonic Icons* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Would be nice if the reviewer or someone could post some basic information about these six amps (I feel almost guilty for asking "more, more" after the amazing amount of work already put in by the reviewer), such as:

 price
 weight, ounces
 dimensions, width x depth x height
 battery or power requirements
 front & rear panel controls, indicators, connectors

 I couldn't find this information in the earlier posts, although I may have overlooked some._

 

I just don't have all that information, but here is what I know without having to look it up myself.

 SIZE: The Predator and Pico are about the width and depth of a 3G nano. The D2 is about the width and depth of a 2G nano. The 2MOVE and Lyrix are about the width of a iPod video/classic but not quite as deep. Those are all less than 1" tall. The D1 is is a little wider and deeper than an iPod video/classic, and about as tall as 3 iPod videos.

 POWER: The Predator charges with a 5V wallwart. I haven't found a USB charger that will fit the jack yet. The D1, D2 and Pico use a 12v charger. The Lyrix can charge with the 12v Pico charger, but the 16v they sold me will charge it faster. I didn't check the voltage on the 2Move charger while I had it.

 SWITCHING: The Pico, D2, D1, 2MOVE and Lyrix have auto-sensing switching to pick the input that is getting the active signal. The Predator has a USB/Analog input switch on the front.

 FEATURES: The Predator has a power switch and input switch on the front, along with an analog input and headphone out 2.5mm jack, and has a 3-level gain switch and 5v power input on the rear.

 The Pico and D2 both turn on with the volume knob, and have a hi/lo gain switch on the front, with a USB and 12v power input on the rear.

 The Lyrix has everything on the front, the 16v power input, USB input, analog input and headphone out, and bass/crossfeed/gain switch, and it turns on with the volume knob.

 The 2MOVE has power input and USB input on the rear, and it doesn't have a charge circuit and can take 6-12v input. The unit turns on with the volume knob, and has analog input and headphone out plus a crossfeed switch on the front.

 The D1 has no gain switch, turns on with the power knob, and has analog input and headphone out on the front. When using the DAC/Digital inputs on the rear, the analog input turns into a line-out. If you are using the DAC, only one of the front 3.5mm outputs at a time is active - either headphone out or line out. On the rear is the 12v power input, and 3 digital inputs (USB, COAX, and Optical).

 EDIT: Battery LIFE: Predator 56 hour, Pico 20 hour, D2 15 hour, D1 15 hour, Lyrix 20-24 hour, 2MOVE ???


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

*(1) The Headroom Micro DAC and Micro AMP, 2006 version, AKA HR Micro Stack portable:*

 The HR Micro Stack came into my possession the first week of March, and I initially considered including it in this review, but I wanted to focus on the newer smaller combination portable USB DAC/amps first. Headroom now has a 2007 Micro portable DAC/Amp for $598; but the DAC chip is different, and they admit that the new Analog Devices DAC is a slight downgrade from the 2006 portable with Cirrus Logic CS4398 chip (they claim the 2007 desktop Micros with the CS4398 are still as good or better, but without 9v battery power).

 This is a fairly large (for portable) two-piece set, with a separate DAC and matching Amp section. When strapped together with the optional Micro-Strap they act as one large unit and take up a 3W"x4D"x3H" piece of desktop. That is bigger than the iBasso D1, so it certainly wont fit in your pocket (not even a coat pocket), and is really what I would call transportable. Even worse, this means you get two medium-to-large sized power bricks, with proprietary connectors on the amp and DAC side, and no internal charging circuit. You have to buy a separate battery charger, and the one I have can only do two 9v at a time. Yikes. I haven't tested battery life, but I have read tales of the amp chewing through a pair of 9v re-chargables in 8 hours, and the DAC lasting maybe twice that. I will try to test out the 9.6v re-chargables that HeadRoom sells soon. See a recent previous post for battery life of the other amps reviewed.

 I now have about 400 hours on the Micro Stack, about half from just regular use of music and not running it 24/7 after the first 180 hours. And I just feel that I need to add this to my review, and to let people know what to expect if they buy a used one down the line. There are a fair number of these out there, and they don't go up for sale used very often, and there is a good reason for that - they sound good. 

 I did my comparison against the Pico, and planned to pull out one of the other amps should the Headroom fall above or below the Pico, but I made a lucky guess and found them to be fairly equivalent. I used all the same program material, and listened with my RS-1 and D2000 (my HFI-780 were with mrarroyo at the time).

 The HR Micro Stack via USB reproduces vocals and real acoustic instruments well, with no colorations and drop outs. Diana Krall was smooth, without sibilance, but female vocals and saxophones were just ever-so-slightly cooler than I like. Pianos were sharp with quick attack and smooth decay, and were not piercing. The sound does not seem boosted or sucked out in any areas. 

 There is a nice sense of ambience and space around the instruments, without making the venue sound cavernous (or microscopic). Rather, it is just right. With classical music I dare say it can recreate the large hall ambience slightly better than the Predator, and it reproduced the Cathedral-sized venue for Handel's Messiah as well as the Pico did. With smaller nightclub venues, and studio recordings, the ambience and dynamic range was good as well. I did not hear the sound of the instruments or the echos disappear too fast like with the Lyrix USB DAC (or Travagans Green). 

 Switching to optical digital, I can hear slightly better air and ambience with Headroom's optical input and my Macbook. I should note that while optical is a little more transparent, the USB performance is still pretty darn close to optical. Even when playing native 24/96 program material from Linnrecords.com Hi-res downloads, and setting the Macbook optical output to 24/96, the differences in sound between the HR optical input and the USB input of both the HR and Pico were fairly small (maybe a 5% improvement).

 So, what about all my previous postings about the Micro Stack being a warmer and more musical setup, if it really sounds like a Pico? Well, I use the Micro Stack with crossfeed switched on 90% of the time. And the HR Micro Amp's sound warms up when you hit the crossfeed, even more than the Lyrix does with crossfeed. Whether it is better that way depends on the listener, the source, the program material and the headphones. *With crossfeed off, there is very little difference in sound between the Headroom Micro Stack via USB and the Pico via USB.* However, the HR Micro Stack is just a bit richer in the mids than the Pico when crossfeed is on, but also sounds slightly rolled off in the highs with crossfeed (more rolled off than the Predator). To my ears, the Lyrix and HeadFive tend to lose a little of their air and ambience when crossfeed is on; but the HR with crossfeed still seems to retain decent space and ambience, despite the slight rolled off highs.

 Basically, via USB the $598 HR Micro Stack's performance and sound signature were similar enough to the $499 Pico to call it a draw. But, the optical S/PDIF digital input adds a small additional layer of ambience and transparency to the sound. The trade-offs for the gains with optical are bigger size, inconvenience of recharging batteries externally, out of production and higher cost. This is great for my iRiver and Sony portable CD Player with optical at the bedside. But if you are putting together a computer only rig and just wont use the S/PDIF inputs, then there are better choices reviewed here that will give you great sound in a smaller and more convenient package. If you need the crossfeed on a computer-only rig, get the 2MOVE - although it's affect was more subtle than Headroom or Headfive, it did not seem to affect the sound signature much, or cause a roll-off in the highs.

*(2) Some notes about the Lyrix Pro USB Total, Lyrix Pro (and it's little brother the Caffeine Pro):*

 I've had several inquiries about the Lyrix, whether it is the DAC or the Amp that holds it back. I believe it is the DAC that holds it back, even though the DAC sounds better than headphone out of a 5.5G iPod or Macbook (which not surprisingly sound similar to each other and could use improving). It also confirmed for me how important burn-in is with these small amps, as I got to compare a new vs 500 hours side-by-side.

 Let me preface by saying the Lyrix Total Pro needed about 70 hours burn-in to open up and smooth out, then about 200 hours burn-in to get to 95% of it's potential, and after 300 hours there were few if any changes to the refined smooth accurate sound they produce. Interestingly, I couldn't hear much change when flipping on the crossfeed when new out of the box, or even in the first 70 hours. By the time I had 200 hours on it, the effect was more audible. Other people have reported the same findings with the Lyrix crossfeed vs burn-in.

 When I got an extra Lyrix Pro for my son a couple of weeks ago, my Caffeine Pro (basically the same amp) and Lyrix Pro USB Total had over 500 hours each. In comparing the new one I could hear the constriction in soundstage, less warmth in the lower mids, and a slight coarseness in the highs. Now, at 150+ hours it is pretty hard to tell the differences between Lyrix Pro and the Caffeine Pro, while there is still a slightly more refined quality to the sound of the Lyrix Total. The warmth in the lower mids doesn't seem to develop in the Lyrix till after 150+ hours of burn-in, and while it is still a little behind that of the Predator, Pico, 2MOVE or Headroom, the amp section by itself is close to the HeadSix and still ahead of the stock iBasso D1 or D2.

*(3) Because of all the questions about whether the main differences in my review are from the DAC or the Amp section, after I got my D1 back from iBasso I briefly listened to most of them with analog input from an iMod, instead of via USB DAC.* (except the 2MOVE which I don't have)

 People keep forgetting how close they are already, as I've said many times, and I love them all. There isn't a big difference between an amp rated 9.4/10 and a 10/10 (which is where most of them sit). So, as expected the sound quality of most of the amps via analog input is just as close as when using their internal DAC (the exception is the Lyrix amp-only is now better than a stock D1 or D2). 

 Although their basic sound signatures remain mostly unchanged, using the same source (the iMod's DAC) slightly lessens the differences into just their own essence or flavor, what we call sound signature. The differences in sound quality would still be in the single digit percentage points, and subject to personal preferences (except the stock D1 with analog input is not terribly impressive - it really needs the DAC or new opamps to wow you).


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

*(4) Newest Ranking 05/06/08: COPY OF THE LATEST ADDITIONS HAS BEEN ADDED TO POST #2.*

 1. RSA Predator (good bass and soundstage, more body, organic, full)
 2. D2 with rolled opamps (LM6172/THS4032 - balanced, not too forward, sweet/magical Saxophone, almost mesmerizing like Predator)
 3. 2MOVE (sweet mids and saxophone, midbass hmmm, failed the bad mastering diana krall test, great detail and air, too large and heavy)
 3. PICO (smooth and transparent without coloration, Great DAC, won the bad mastering Diana Krall test, but nothing special with piano and sax like the others, too neutral as an amp - how is that possible, maybe not because there is something around 2Khz that is not right with RS-1)
 3. Headroom 2006 Micro Stack Portable (a twin to the Pico's sound but better with piano, too BIG and out of production, with crossfeed mids are richer/warmer but highs rolled off)
 4. D1 with rolled opamps (AD743 main/LMH6643 buffer/LTC6241HV DAC - powerful, punchy, energetic, alive)
 4. D2 stock (thin in the middle, neutral with good bass,)
 5. Lyrix (good frequency balance, lacking details and air vs the others)
 6. D1 stock opamps (put AD823/NE5532/AD8616 back in right before I shipped it back for the 2-3db channel imbalance, too edgy and bright and distant)


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Just a guess, from eyeballing them and based on their cubic centimeter volume size, I could fit 12 Picos (the smallest amp) inside the HR Micro Stack. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Pics to come later...


----------



## 2162

Great post.
 Which would be better for a DT 990?


----------



## busanblues

hi, I am new at opamp thing....and i sure wanna try it...
 But I have no idea where to get those...
 How do I get those opamps....??


----------



## Drag0n

""""Right now I am preferring the RS-1 and Edition 9 vs my 780's with 666 hours on them (don't laugh, that's how many hours they have ).

 All Amps were reviewed as before, using only their USB DAC as source, via Macbook. The D2 was also tested with new opamps, with a LM6172 replacing the LT1364, and a THS4032 replacing the NE5532.

 I used the same music as in the first test, but had to add a few more items: "Handel Messiah" conductor Christopher Hogwood, William Orbit "The Best of Strange Cargo", James Asher "Shaman Drums", Guinea Pig "Cool Cats", Jack Johnson. I also threw in various pop artists from my kid's music in 128kbps to test with poor sources.""""


 You listened to "Handel's Messiah" when the amp was burned in at 666 hours???!!! :O 


 The amp didnt go on fire? lol


----------



## daco63

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *busanblues* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_hi, I am new at opamp thing....and i sure wanna try it...
 But I have no idea where to get those...
 How do I get those opamps....??
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

HiFlight was selling a set of opamps for the D2. Contact him if you want to pick up a few to try. You just open up the D2 and plug the new opamps into the sockets. More info on opamp options for the D2 over at this other thread.


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Drag0n* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 You listened to "Handel's Messiah" when the amp was burned in at 666 hours???!!! :O 


 The amp didnt go on fire? lol _

 

lol 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Nice one.


----------



## 2162

predator or pico for dt 990?


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Drag0n* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_""""Right now I am preferring the RS-1 and Edition 9 vs my 780's with 666 hours on them (don't laugh, that's how many hours they have ).

 All Amps were reviewed as before, using only their USB DAC as source, via Macbook. The D2 was also tested with new opamps, with a LM6172 replacing the LT1364, and a THS4032 replacing the NE5532.

 I used the same music as in the first test, but had to add a few more items: "Handel Messiah" conductor Christopher Hogwood, William Orbit "The Best of Strange Cargo", James Asher "Shaman Drums", Guinea Pig "Cool Cats", Jack Johnson. I also threw in various pop artists from my kid's music in 128kbps to test with poor sources.""""


 You listened to "Handel's Messiah" when the amp was burned in at 666 hours???!!! :O 


 The amp didnt go on fire? lol _

 

Handel's Messiah was the ONLY thing that saved the HFI-780 from burning up when they hit 666 hours!


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *2162* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_predator or pico for dt 990?_

 

One of these days I will have to buy/try a DT880 and DT990 just so I can answer these questions. I just can't say or begin to guess properly right now.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

*Newest Ranking 05/12/08:*

Today I had to change opamps in the D1 in order to ship to someone, and I needed to rob 4 screws from the D2 temporarily (a long story), so while the D2 was open I returned the D2 back to stock just for a quick listen. So, I compared the D1 with AD797 main, LMH6643 buffers, and LT6234 in the DAC vs the stock D2 with LT1364 + NE5532. 

 The D1 with the above opamps is clearly better via USB than the stock D2, so I changed the rank from the stock D2 tied with the modded D1 for 4th, and moved the stock D2 to 5th place. The D1 with the above opamps is so good that it almost ties the Pico and HR Micro Stack for 3rd, but not quite (however via optical it might move up).

 1. RSA Predator (good bass and soundstage, more body, organic, full)
 2. D2 with rolled opamps (LM6172/THS4032 - balanced, not too forward, sweet/magical Saxophone, almost mesmerizing like Predator)
 3. 2MOVE (sweet mids and saxophone, midbass hmmm, failed the bad mastering diana krall test, great detail and air, too large and heavy)
 3. PICO (smooth and transparent without coloration, Great DAC, won the bad mastering Diana Krall test, but nothing special with piano and sax like the others, too neutral as an amp - how is that possible, maybe not because there is something around 2Khz that is not right with RS-1)
 3. Headroom 2006 Micro Stack Portable (a twin to the Pico's sound but better with piano, too BIG and out of production, with crossfeed mids are richer/warmer but highs rolled off)
 4. D1 with rolled opamps (AD797 main/LM6643 buffer/LT6234 DAC - powerful, punchy, energetic, alive - not as bright as AD743/6643/6241)
 5. D2 stock (thin in the middle, neutral with good bass,)
 6. Lyrix (good frequency balance, DAC lacking details and air vs the others, but the amp is great)
 7. D1 stock opamps (put AD823/NE5532/AD8616 back in right before I shipped it back for the 2-3db channel imbalance, too edgy and bright and distant)


----------



## 2162

wow pico rank equal 3rd.. beaten by the D2?
 Where can i get the opamps D2?


----------



## kostalex

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *2162* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_predator or pico for dt 990?_

 

I had DT990 and found them to be quite demanding to the amp. They paired so-so with Meier Move due to the weighty bass of both. Finally I found good synergy with cheap Audio-Technica AT-HA2, which is quite dry sounding amp. Based on descriptions of the Predators sound, it seems simillar to Move in terms of sound sig. So I doubt DT990 will pair well with Predator (in contrary to DT880, which does requires more bass support).


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Don't forget

 THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN 1ST AND 5TH IS A RATING OF 9.4/10 VS 10/10 FOR 1ST. They are that close and that good.


----------



## 2162

would u recommend I stay with my headsave classic and get a zero dac or go for a predator/pico or get a D2?


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

I don't know anything about the "Headsave classic", and my main concern about the Zero is the lack of USB support. The majority of people would be happy with any of the DAC/Amps in this review, so pick your poison. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Other things to consider is that the Zero is not portable, this review so far has only been about portable, and to help people watch out for falling for the FOTM (flavor of the month) and missing out on a good deal. I wanted to cover what I heard in these DAC/amps, vs each other, so people buying them would have a better idea of what to expect with the headphones or music they like the most.

 Also, sometimes I think there is still a bit of disagreement about what opamps make the Zero sound the best. If I had a Zero I would want to use another good DAC/amp as the reference or standard to compare against when rolling opamps - to get it closer to what is agreed on as being good by the majority. i.e. if I could make a Zero sound as good as a DAC1 or Apogee mini-DAC, then my job is done. I haven't read about anyone actually getting that done.

 But, the Pico has been positively reviewed vs other high end DAC's here, with some saying it is as good or better DAC. I have the Pico and Apogee as my "gold standard" to use as a measure against when rolling opamps (remember, I love the Pico when used as a DAC/preamp to drive a full size amp). So, theoretically, if I had a zero I would try to roll opamps to make it sound as good as my best DAC's and if that wasn't possible, then I could say the Zero isn't as good. I just don't have the data to make that assessment right now.


----------



## daco63

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *2162* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_would u recommend I stay with my headsave classic and get a zero dac or go for a predator/pico or get a D2?_

 

Buy them all to find out which _you _like best with your music and headphones. Then sell the ones you don't want here in the For Sale forum...


----------



## inthecup

Was just notified today that the new iBasso D2 boa will be available starting tomorrow. Does anyone have any info? Does it compare to the D2 Viper?


----------



## Explorer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *inthecup* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Was just notified today that the new iBasso D2 boa will be available starting tomorrow. Does anyone have any info? Does it compare to the D2 Viper?_

 

No!! I bought an amp yesterday.

 Explorer


----------



## daco63

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *inthecup* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Was just notified today that the new iBasso D2 boa will be available starting tomorrow. Does anyone have any info? Does it compare to the D2 Viper?_

 

The limited-run Viper version has sockets to allow easy swapping of the internal opamps. My understanding is that the production version of the D2 would not have sockets (opamps will be soldered in place), and that it might be a bit smaller (shorter) than the Viper.

 I haven't seen anything announced yet (nothing on the iBasso website that I can find). I'm very interested to hear what opamps they've selected for production...

 - Dave


----------



## Akabeth

very helpful review!
 thanks


----------



## busanblues

guys I need help....i actually found the place to buy the opamps... but I don't know which one i should get.. there are different kinds of lm6172 and THS4032...like THS4032ID and THS4032CD, and for Im6172 there are LM6172IM/NOPB LM6172IM LM6172IN and LM6172IMX... so many diffent stuff and so little knowledge....
 well and I will be getting my d2 viper this week and is it good idea to change those opamps right away or do i have to burn in a bit before switching those opamps...and is there any other opamp combos I sould get?? I wanna order all at once...I will be using d2 viper with my laptop and esw9...is there any great combos for esw9...
 thank you in advance...


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

PM HiFlight about the opamps, he could even sell you some.

 I am still using the LM6172 in the main amp and THS4032 in the ground channel opamp.


----------



## daco63

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *busanblues* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_guys I need help....i actually found the place to buy the opamps... but I don't know which one i should get.. there are different kinds of lm6172 and THS4032...like THS4032ID and THS4032CD, and for Im6172 there are LM6172IM/NOPB LM6172IM LM6172IN and LM6172IMX... so many diffent stuff and so little knowledge....
 well and I will be getting my d2 viper this week and is it good idea to change those opamps right away or do i have to burn in a bit before switching those opamps...and is there any other opamp combos I sould get?? I wanna order all at once...I will be using d2 viper with my laptop and esw9...is there any great combos for esw9...
 thank you in advance..._

 

You can find more info on opamps for the D2 over at this thread:

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f5/opa...per-d2-308023/

 Powertoold reported liking two AD8599 for use with IEMs. He commented they were lighter on the bass.

 I didn't spot the post, but I have this info in my notes (from HiFlight, I think):

  Quote:


 These are the correct Digikey part numbers: 

 296-7524-5-ND
 ISL55002IBZ-T7CT-ND 
 

The first PN is for THS4032CD.

 - Dave


----------



## busanblues

thank you very much.... great great!!


----------



## unique_loy

helpful,thank you,learned a lot


----------



## Covenant

Question HeadphoneAddict, not sure if you've addressed this already or not.. did you get to test the Pico as a DAC for your tube amps as you remarked you'd try in your review?

 I'm curious as to just how well the Pico would perform as a USB DAC/Preamp driving a more robust headphone amp. The amp section would have to be very linear, neutral and transparent for proper preamp duty, and from what i've read it seems to fit those criteria. I'd be very interested in your impressions.


----------



## jc1600cc

Great review . Just recently got back in to Headphones . All the reviews I have read were Great . I purchased a RSA Predator , ALO Modded HD 600 , ALO Jumbo Mini . I must agree with the Organic sound of the Predator . Nice warmth and smoothness . The DAC sounds terrific . I have been loading all my CD's in the Computer to create a server type of set-up . I have not hooked it up to my Home Rig yet . Need to pick up a cable for that to happen . Leaning towards an ALO Mini to RCA . The reviews on this sight are invaluable to those of us looking for information to make an informed decision on what to purchase . KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK .


----------



## Quokka

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yeah. I don't have any plans right now to acquire a Petite or Leckerton UHA-3, or Total BitHead. I was torn between the D2 and the 2MOVE but, 

 (1) the 2MOVE is bigger than I wanted and,

 (2) I had a store credit with iBasso from a defective P2 (twice) and paid the additional $60 to get the D2 as the third chance at success. The 2MOVE price seems fair, so that wasn't an issue.

 (3) if I go for a big one, it might be the HeadRoom Micro Amp with DAC portable. For that, price is an issue ($598)._

 

Which version of the Headroom Micro Amp (2006) did you test? ....the micro module or desktop module?

 Here are some other things to consider:

 I have the Headroom Micro Amp (2006) with the desktop module installed - it has the better sound quality (according to Headroom) but at the expense of battery life. I only get 2 to 3 hours life from 2 x 9.6v Powerex rechargeable batteries. I love this amp but it is not as 'portable' as I would like.

 The Porta 2move is a great choice. It sounds great and lasts for around 12 to 15 hours from a single 1 x 9.6v Powerex rechargeable battery. It also has the built in DAC included which does a great job with my apple lossless music files via usb from the pc. 

 If I had to choose the between these 2 amps I would pick the 2move as the better 'portable' amp based on its small size, long battery life, built in DAC & equal (but different) sound quality. Oh, & I nearly forgot to mention the price difference!


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Covenant* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Question HeadphoneAddict, not sure if you've addressed this already or not.. did you get to test the Pico as a DAC for your tube amps as you remarked you'd try in your review?

 I'm curious as to just how well the Pico would perform as a USB DAC/Preamp driving a more robust headphone amp. The amp section would have to be very linear, neutral and transparent for proper preamp duty, and from what i've read it seems to fit those criteria. I'd be very interested in your impressions._

 

It works great feeding my Dark Voice 336i


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Quokka* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Which version of the Headroom Micro Amp (2006) did you test? ....the micro module or desktop module?

 Here are some other things to consider:

 I have the Headroom Micro Amp (2006) with the desktop module installed - it has the better sound quality (according to Headroom) but at the expense of battery life. I only get 2 to 3 hours life from 2 x 9.6v Powerex rechargeable batteries. I love this amp but it is not as 'portable' as I would like.

 The Porta 2move is a great choice. It sounds great and lasts for around 12 to 15 hours from a single 1 x 9.6v Powerex rechargeable battery. It also has the built in DAC included which does a great job with my apple lossless music files via usb from the pc. 

 If I had to choose the between these 2 amps I would pick the 2move as the better 'portable' amp based on its small size, long battery life, built in DAC & equal (but different) sound quality. Oh, & I nearly forgot to mention the price difference!_

 

It was the very last batch of new ones when they discontinued the portable stack, so I assume desktop module. I needed the optical and coax inputs.


----------



## dynagroove

thanks HeadphoneAddict - a quality & objective review.
 jeff h


----------



## busanblues

thank you for recommending me to deal with hiflight.... it was quik...
 Now that i have those opamps in my hand... should i put those opamps into my d2 right away or i sould let d2 burn in a little more or alot more... i only have about 50 hours of burn in only.....


----------



## daco63

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *busanblues* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_thank you for recommending me to deal with hiflight.... it was quik...
 Now that i have those opamps in my hand... should i put those opamps into my d2 right away or i sould let d2 burn in a little more or alot more... i only have about 50 hours of burn in only....._

 

I burned mine in with new opamps, but I think I read that otheres waited for full burn in before swapping. I'm guessing that's just because they wanted it burned in before they started evaluating. I don't think the opamps are affected by burnin since they're solid state.

 I wasn't sure if I'd be able to hear the difference with burn-in, but I definately could. I especially noticed improvement in the mids and bottom end. I believe Jam and HeadphoneAddict were recommending something like 400 hours, which is what I did (plugged it in downstairs and played continuous music for 17 days).


----------



## busanblues

thank you.. i am putting in new opamps right now.....can't wait to hear the difference


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

For the D2, 300 hours was enough. My initial review was at 185 hours, but then I had to re-do it. The D1 needed about 400 hours.


----------



## busanblues

oh, by the way, how is dac section of d2... can I feed tube amp with it...that's when i get a tube amp...(I am still researching..)


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *busanblues* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_oh, by the way, how is dac section of d2... can I feed tube amp with it...that's when i get a tube amp...(I am still researching..)_

 

Yes, you can, but I would probably change the opamps to the ISL55002 and THS4032 (or to the stock ones) if the tube amp is already fairly forward and warm in the mids (see around the middle 1/3 to halfway part of the thread when I tried this combo of opamps and reported on it).

 Here are opamp notes from page 5: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f5/min...ml#post4004187

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* 
_I am first listening to the ISL55002 in main (replaced the 1364) and and THS4032 in the second spot (replaced NE5532). This is really nice with the ALO modded 780's (in same room as sleeping wife, so no open phones).

 It is not what I expected, but rather with strong bass, smooth highs that are less accentuated than stock when teamed with the 780, and it's very transparent. Pianos and snares are crisp and attack and decay is good. Drums sound good, and bass guitar is tight. Saxophone are nice but maybe a liittle of the warmth is missing on those. Diana Krall's voice in "Temptation" does not have sibilance, and that is my test track for sssssibilance. I have no trouble hearing the knocking artifacts from the piano in "Departure Bay", from pedals and such._


----------



## FrederikS|TPU

Incredible reviews!
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 One question though which of the amp / dac combos do you like the best with your livewires?

 I can see that you have the "Predator" in your portable rig signature, just wondering if any of the others come close


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *FrederikS|TPU* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Incredible reviews!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 One question though which of the amp / dac combos do you like the best with your livewires?

 I can see that you have the "Predator" in your portable rig signature, just wondering if any of the others come close 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

All of them are close to each other, with the Predator, Pico, D2 and Micro Stack having the best DAC/amp combo of the mini-portables that I own. The 2MOVE would be right up there if I owned it (was borrowed), so just flip a coin to choose 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But, to be honest, *the Predator gets used the most for Livewires, with Meier Headsix getting a fair bit of time too*. Both live in my gadget/fanny pack and go everywhere with me. I keep the Predator velcro'd my iMod and the Headsix attached to my 3G nano.

 I have not tried the Livewires with the D2 - I need to try it, since I have tried all the other amps with Livewires. The D2 pretty much sits in my laptop bag ever since I have started using my Apogee mini-DAC optical with the Macbook to listen to my new HE60 eletrostatics. But, the D2 is fantastic with my RS-1 and laptop if I don't want to warm up the tube amps.

 The Pico pretty much only gets used as a preamp at home, or with the Denon D2000 and laptop, but it is not bad with the LW. However, I never carry Pico around with me and leave it at home - if my gadget bag/fanny pack gets stolen with my Predator and D2 in it, then I will still have the Pico and other DAC/amps safe at home. It's like keeping a backup of my computer hard drive separate from the computer.

 The HR Micro Stack gets used nightly, to listen to music as I fall asleep, and it sounds nice with the Livewires as well. The only amp I didn't like with the Livewires was my Tomahawk, as it made the highs a little harsh (same with my Denon C700 and TH).


----------



## Explorer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have not tried the Livewires with the D2 - I need to try it, since I have tried all the other amps with Livewires._

 

I would be interested in the results. Of course, I would be captivated if you reported on the synergy or lack thereof between your Livewires and a D2 Boa amp. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Explorer


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Explorer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I would be interested in the results. Of course, I would be captivated if you reported on the synergy or lack thereof between your Livewires and a D2 Boa amp. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Explorer_

 

Sorry this has taken me so long, but I had to do some opamp rolling with the D2 viper and Livewires custom IEM tonight.

 As you know from previous opamp rolling, I left the LM6172 in the main opamp section and the THS4032 in the ground channel as the second opamp, because the mids were richer and less withdrawn with my HFI780 and RS-1 than when I had the ISL55002 in the main amp section.

 I listened to that tonight with the Livewires - they are enjoyable with that combo above but not perfect. I just find the Mids a teensy weensy bit too much with the LM6172/THS4032 and Livewires. * The LW are much better when I put the ISL55002 back into the main amp section with the THS4032 in the second socket (this was my second choice the first time around).* I couldn't put the stock opamps back in because I gave one of my LT1364 away with amp I sold, and the other LT1364 is already in an amp. However, I strongly suspect the stock opamps will be better for the Livewires too, based on what I recall it sounding like vs now (similar).

 Since the opamps in the Boa are different than the viper (according to posts here), and since the full sized phones get used with the D2 and laptop so much more than the LW, and since the smaller Predator and Headsix already sound great with the Livewires - I put the LM6172 back into the D2-Viper. The RS-1, D2000, and Edition 9 just sound better to me with this set of opamps.

 Again, I am not in the market for a Boa right now. Once I resolve a small previous issue with iBasso I might consider one. One last thing - I pulled out the Headstage Lyrix Pro Total and thought it sounded very good with the LiveWires too. I can roll opamps in the Lyrix and never once felt the need to open it up and do so, since the amp section is so good.


----------



## FrederikS|TPU

Thank you so much for the input HPA!

 Sounds like the stock D2 Viper might be a good fit with the LiveWires. I think you have just convinced me to buy a Viper 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Cheers,
 Frederik


----------



## Explorer

Thanks HPA for the info on the Livewires!!


----------



## jamato8

So where is the Boa? :^)


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So where is the Boa? :^)_

 

I'm waiting for you to send me a loaner iBasso D2 Boa. PM me for the shipping address.


----------



## boodi

we need a boa / viper comparo


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *boodi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_we need a boa / viper comparo_

 

Yes we do. I also need to add the Go-Vibe petite and magnum someday, but I am not planning to buy those either. I am more likely to buy the Headroom Micro Portable with DAC sometime in the future.


----------



## boodi

if no one is writing down about the comparo I'll be forced to buy a Viper ( used , hopefully soon ) and a Boa too..


----------



## shrisha

Dear HeadphoneAddict, Thanks so much for you great review. Could you please tell me where did you get opamps for Ibasso D2? I couldn't find it in internet. And what do you think is it good idea to change opamps in Ibasso D2 Boa? I know is some solder work required and it's fine with me. And is making sense to use something better then those opamps that you used for you reviewed Ibasso D2 Viper?
 thanks ance again,
 Regards.


----------



## RAQemUP

Message HiFlight on these forums. He sells all the opamps HA was using in the review in a D2 Viper "Top Kit" package.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *shrisha* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Dear HeadphoneAddict, Thanks so much for you great review. Could you please tell me where did you get opamps for Ibasso D2? I couldn't find it in internet. And what do you think is it good idea to change opamps in Ibasso D2 Boa? I know is some solder work required and it's fine with me. And is making sense to use something better then those opamps that you used for you reviewed Ibasso D2 Viper?
 thanks ance again,
 Regards._


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

i've decided to part with my Asus Xonar D2 and going for RSA Predator. I have order a unit from Ray and awaiting shipment to arrive.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *shrisha* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Dear HeadphoneAddict, Thanks so much for you great review. Could you please tell me where did you get opamps for Ibasso D2? I couldn't find it in internet. And what do you think is it good idea to change opamps in Ibasso D2 Boa? I know is some solder work required and it's fine with me. And is making sense to use something better then those opamps that you used for you reviewed Ibasso D2 Viper?
 thanks ance again,
 Regards._

 

Like another head-fi member said, PM highflight and he can sell you some. He can solder some SOIC opamps onto a DIP adapter if the opamps are not in DIP form already. I don't imagine it is worth trying to solder new opamps into a Boa PCB.

 I have doing some more opamp rolling in the D2 viper and reported on it in the following thread: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f103/s...ess-up-338443/ The new opamps make it better with the Freq Show and q-JAYS IEM, but worse with my Grado RS-1 - seems there is often a trade off we have to live with.


----------



## Dihnekis

Any comments on the boa vs the zero 24 bit DAC? Same price range.


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

i was poisoned to get myself the predator after coming across this review. i have recently got my self the rsa xp-7 + dedicated dc power supply and i can't resist the temptation to try out the predator after witnessing the positive feedback. i am i need of a usb/dac to pair with my k701 as at now since the xp-7 is just fine for the rs-1. from fedex, i'll be receiving the predator tomorrow.... can't wait to reach the 1000 hours mark.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Dihnekis* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Any comments on the boa vs the zero 24 bit DAC? Same price range._

 

Sorry, I haven't heard either of those. Wish I could help.


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

i received my predator from ray today. burning in as i type now.


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I got a second STAX SRM-1 Mk2 for my basement rig, and the Pico seems to work fairly well as just a DAC feeding the STAX amp with SR-Lambda normal bias (which are fairly warm). So I tried my SR-5N (gold) and it was like "wow" - fast and punchy with mids like sweet honey.

 Interestingly, the D2 isn't getting used much, since it is a bit bigger than the Predator velcro'd to my 3G nano, and because I am loving my TTVJ millet hybrid portable with iMod and RS-1 sooooo very much. Grados -n- toobs, yum...

 I am just loving the music._

 

Have you tried the Boa? It is smaller and while sounding much like the Viper it is different as there were a few changes.

 Sorry, I just read above that you haven't heard the Boa.


----------



## boodi

headphone addict 
 which amp/dac you feel the most fun on all to listen


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

I don't know what you mean by fun, so I don't know I can answer that. I know what I use the most, based on liking the sound the most.

 I use my Predator and D2 the most right now. It used to be my Predator and Headsix that were used the most, but I discovered the right opamps for the D2 to use with my IEM. The MicroStack is used daily at my bedside with iRiver H140 optical out or Sony D-303 optical out, although sometimes I use the TTVJ millet hybrid with the Micro Dac at the bedside. For some tube testing, I did bring the DV336i up from the basement, and hooked it up to my bedside Micro DAC last night.

 The Pico sits around to act as a spare USB DAC with my Macbook at home, and as a backup/spare just in case my car is broken into and someone steals my my Predator and D2. I leave them out in the car in my fanny pack with the Nano and iMod. If I am listening to my D2000 on the laptop I like to pull out the Pico, even when the other amps are on hand. 

 The Lyrix Total Pro USB sits around unused. The D1 was traded for a Stax SRD-7 Pro that I needed for my Baby Orpheus, and I do miss it although with the Micro Stack around it wasn't getting much use. The 2MOVE went back to Skylab after the loan, and I didn't see a need to buy one because I have a couple that I like slightly better and it was so heavy. I do have a D2 Boa coming next week, which I will review after I put 300 hours on it.


----------



## Victor Chew

How would you rate the Xin Super Macro IV?


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Victor Chew* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How would you rate the Xin Super Macro IV?_

 

I ansered this in the other thread where you asked.


----------



## Akabeth

Larry have you tried to request sticky for this thread yet?
 I feel this thread can atleast give a heads up to all guests/members in a market for a portable amp due to the A/Bx nature of your review.

 It's a great read by all means.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

*Newest Ranking 07/31/08: Added iBasso D2 Boa.*

I received a D2 Boa from iBasso and gave it 300 hours of burn-in like the Viper needed, and then I have used it another 20 hours for music over the past week listening to music. I listened with my Proline 2500, D2000, RS-1, Edition 9, Livewires, Freq Show, Klipsch Image and Sleek SA6. I compared it to most of the amps from before, except I do not have the loaner 2MOVE, or my iBasso D1 or Lyrix Total Pro any more. However, my Lyrix Pro with USB DAC Cable sounds the same as the Lyrix Total Pro, so I can use that for comparison if something is close in rank to it. The Boa was high enough in the ranking that I didn't need to bring out the Lyrix. 

 The Boa is a pleasant amp to listen to. As far as timbre and tone and frequency balance it is certainly better sounding than the stock D2 Viper to my ears. It does not sound as hollow in the mids as the stock Viper, so the Proline 2500 for example sound better with the Boa than with the Pico or stock Viper. 

 Listening to the saxophone in Tsuyoshi Yamamoto "Somewhere over the Rainbow" it had the pleasing warm-breathy and reedy-air sound at the same time, just the way I like it with the Predator, modded Viper, and 2MOVE. However, listening to Diana Krall "Temptation" I noticed that the lower mids seemed to be a little over-emphasized in her voice. With many of my headphones, the Boa could be a little too forward in the 250Hz range and could make pianos resonate a little in my ears. Because of this I did not like the Boa with my Freq Show customs or Klipsch Image as much as the other top three amps, but it was still acceptable.

 With string bass, the D2 Viper with LM6172 in the main amp produced noticeably more powerful bass with much better impact. However, vs the stock Viper opamps I felt the bass was similar. The treble in the Boa seemed slightly less extended than the Viper, Pico or even Predator. However, at times the highs could seem smoother than with the Predator, which sounded slightly more aggressive when listened to side by side. 

 The Boa seemed to be lacking some of the transparency found in the the 1st-3rd place amps, as the air and ambience hasn't fully developed yet to what I think it's potential could be (based on what I hear in the Viper). I am hoping that this will get better with more hours, as the other top amps have 500-2000 hours on them. It is fairly transparent, but just not quite to the degree of the others, and this is still the case when fed by my iMod and Vcap dock. 

 The Boa also seems to have a slightly smaller soundstage than the other top amps. With the D2 Viper opamps swapped to the THS4032 in the main amp, the Viper has the most air and space to the musical venue, followed by the Pico and then the Predator, with the Boa slightly behind those. Even with the LM6172 in the Viper main amp section the size of the soundstage was slightly bigger than the Boa, and similar to the Predator.

 Some last thoughts. I briefly tried the Boa with my HD600 and Yamaha HP-1 orthodynamics and wished for a little more power, but it was usable - but with the 600 ohm AKG K240M forget about it. There was no problem driving any of my other headphones. The USB charging feature is a major plus for the Boa, as is the doubled battery life vs my Viper. 

 I would take the Boa over a stock D1 or D2 Viper or Headstage Lyrix. If it wasn't for the extra power and optical DAC of the Headroom, the Boa might have placed above that too. Lately I have been using the Predator the most with my 3G Nano, the Viper with my iMod and IEMs, the Micro Stack at my bedside, and the Pico with the laptop but feeding it into other amps. *If the soundstage and transparency develop and mature more over time with more hours on it, the Boa may well get used more than the Viper or Pico. *


*Here is the ranking - see comments included:*

*1. RSA Predator* (good bass and soundstage, more body, organic, full. Seems to do well with all my headphones, and not bad with any).
*2. D2 with rolled opamps* (LM6172/THS4032 - balanced, not too forward, sweet/magical Saxophone, almost mesmerizing like Predator. With my IEM I found it sounded best with the LM6172 and THS4032 swapped. This second opamp configuration was good with all my IEM, and not bad with my full size phones, except the RS-1 seem a bit bright and the Proline 2500 lacked fullness in the mids.)
*3. 2MOVE* (sweet mids and saxophone, midbass hmmm, failed the bad mastering diana krall test, great detail and air, too large and heavy)
*3. PICO* (smooth and transparent without coloration, Great DAC, won the bad mastering Diana Krall test, but nothing special with piano and sax like the others, too neutral as an amp - how is that possible, maybe not because there is something around 2Khz that is not right with RS-1. It really seems to shine with my re-cabled Denon D2000, Klipsch Image, Freq Show customs, but doesn't sound bad with anything but my Proline 2500).
*3. Headroom 2006 Micro Stack Portable* (a twin to the Pico's sound but better with piano, too BIG and out of production, with crossfeed mids are richer/warmer but highs rolled off).
*4. D2 Boa* (Sonic signature slightly warmer than the Pico, and between the D2 Viper with LM6172 in the main amp (warmer) vs THS4032 in the main amp and LM6172 in the ground (cooler). Timbre and tone was good, and mids were slightly forward and rich, and highs had slightly less extension than the D2 Viper, Pico and Predator (in that order). The sense of space with live performances was superior with the D2 Viper, Pico and Predator (in that order), and LESS with the Boa. Listening to Diana Krall "Temptation" seemed to indicate more of a low mids hump than the others, which also caused problems with Pianos. And with other music it seems the bass extension is slightly less than the others in the top ranks).
*4. D1 with rolled opamps* (AD797 main/LM6643 buffer/LT6234 DAC - powerful, punchy, energetic, alive - not as bright as AD743/6643/6241, really sounds better via optical).
*5. D2 stock* (thin in the middle, neutral with good bass,)
*6. Lyrix* (good frequency balance, DAC lacking details and air vs the others, but the amp is great)
*7. D1 stock opamps* (put AD823/NE5532/AD8616 back in right before I shipped it back for the 2-3db channel imbalance, too edgy and bright and distant. Very close to 6th as a DAC/Amp because the DAC is so good it makes up for the frequency response issues. Clearly 7th if only using analog input. NOTE - my V1 opamps were from the initial run, and iBasso updated the opamps to V2 in November 07 to make it better than Lyrix.)


----------



## boodi

I have a boa and agree with much of your findings .


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *boodi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have a boa and agree with much of your findings ._

 

Thanks! As they say, "Great ears hear alike".


----------



## boodi

thanks to you .

 Price is the selling point of this package , and absolutely _no brainer_ , and I wholeheartly raccomand this one on a casual heapdhone freak with no frills in mind but in search for somethin fast to get his music flowing from the laptop on his nice headphones but in a better and upgraded way .

 nevertheless the kinda compressed stage and the "_big_" attention given to the mids make up a bit plastic/80 presentation and a lil poppish sound tone which is not completely nice after lil listening .

 sorry if I'm that critic . just my ears probably , so demanding . Also I sometimes like to overexpress to render better the feelings .

 I think much depends on the dac part


----------



## pufftissue

Is the DAC in the Corda 2Move better or worse than the ones in the Predator and Pico?

 What about vs. Emu 0404?

 I will be listening via laptop alot, and this is a critical factor for me.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *boodi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_thanks to you .

 Price is the selling point of this package , and absolutely no brainer , and I wholeheartly raccomand this one on a casual heapdhone freak with no frills in mind but in search for somethin fast to get his music flowing from the laptop on his nice headphones but in a better and upgraded way .

 nevertheless the kinda compressed stage and the "big" attention given to the mids make up a bit plastic/80 presentation and a lil poppish sound tone which is not completely nice after lil listening .

 sorry if I'm that critic . just my ears probably , so demanding . Also I sometimes like to overexpress to render better the feelings .

 I think much depends on the dac part_

 

I think we're still pretty much in agreement here. It's hard to beat in this price range as a dac/amp, and the small size is great. And the sound isn't bad as an ugrade to the iPod and laptop headphone out, but it's just not up to the level of the top ranked amps here. I'm hoping it will improve and open up with more hours, so I'm gonna burn it in for another week or two.

 And to the next person below you - if a little extra weight and size does not concern you, and your budget allows you to get the 2MOVE, then that would make more sense as a laptop DAC amp. iBasso needs to bring the Viper back with the opamps that I selected, and then you have the light weight for iPod and the improved sound similar to the 2MOVE.


----------



## bonkon

Excellent review.
 Any plans on adding the 2 Govibes to the review in the near future?


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bonkon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Excellent review.
 Any plans on adding the 2 Govibes to the review in the near future?_

 

In my poor health I find doing these reviews tiring, so it will only be reviews of things that I find interesting.


----------



## Covenant

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_In my poor health I find doing these reviews tiring, so it will only be reviews of things that I find interesting._

 







 I hope you get better soon Larry!

 Out of curiosity, how does the DAC of the Predator compare to that of the Pico? I know this is difficult to ascertain as the amps of both units will flavour the sound as they see fit, but I'm curious.

 One of the reasons I chose the Pico was because Justin was so forthright about the technology used behind the DAC, and it seemed to cut no corners to try to achieve the best possible DAC for its form factor. It would be interesting to know how the Predator compares as a source.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Covenant* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_





 I hope you get better soon Larry!

 Out of curiosity, how does the DAC of the Predator compare to that of the Pico? I know this is difficult to ascertain as the amps of both units will flavour the sound as they see fit, but I'm curious.

 One of the reasons I chose the Pico was because Justin was so forthright about the technology used behind the DAC, and it seemed to cut no corners to try to achieve the best possible DAC for its form factor. It would be interesting to know how the Predator compares as a source._

 

Everything you want to know is somewhere in my first post. All the amps were reviewed using the DAC as the source, so if the DAC is not that good the amp's score will suffer (eg Lyrix).


----------



## nsx_23

Posted in wrong thread. Sorry.


----------



## boodi

haddict, you NEED to add the zero whit rolled opas to this review .
 it is _a need_ .


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *boodi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_haddict, you NEED to add the zero with rolled opamps to this review .
 it is a need ._

 

Penchum and others have already filled that need.

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f5/rev...re-amp-269458/


----------



## boodi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Penchum and others have already filled that need.

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f5/rev...re-amp-269458/_

 

yep but I would have loved to read your opinion


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Well, I feared this may happen, but I am at close to 400 hours with the D2 boa, and it continues to open up and develop a little more air, ambience and space to the sound. I know my D1 didn't fully burn-in till 500 hours, and my Predator needed 1000-1200 hours, but the Viper only took about 300 hours, and the Headsix and Headstage took about 200 hours.

 The Frequency Balance is not changing, but the air and ambience continues to develop - and as that happens it gets closer to moving into the top tier. Although I doubt it will overtake the Micro Stack, Pico, D2 Viper or Predator, it may actually end up joining their ranks. Maybe Jamato8 is right.


----------



## Citizen86

That's good to know HeadphoneAddict... everyone likes an airy soundstage 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'm strongly considering the D2 Boa as my laptop DAC/Amp because of its price and portability.


----------



## neezee

have to agree with your stock boa vs. stock viper... hopefully ill be able to agree with you on the predator when i get it


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have doing some more opamp rolling in the D2 viper and reported on it in the following thread: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f103/s...ess-up-338443/ The new opamps make it better with the Freq Show and q-JAYS IEM, but worse with my Grado RS-1 - seems there is often a trade off we have to live with._

 

FOLLOWUP ON OPAMP ROLLING IN D2 VIPER:

 I have a new favorite opamp combination. LMH6622 in the main amp and THS4032 in the ground channel. 

 This is a good compromise between my previous full size headphone opamp selection (LM6172 main/THS4032 ground) and my IEM opamps (THS4032 main/LM6172 ground), and seems to fall right in the middle. Previously, the best full size headphone opamp set was too forward with some IEM (like q-JAYS, Klipsch Image and Freq Show). But with the opamps swapped for use with those IEM, then some full size phones were too thin (such as RS-1 and Proline 2500). The new setup with LMH6622 in the main socket and THS4032 in the ground fixes this issue of needing to switch between two opamp configurations when switching between full size headphones and IEMs. This also has the benefit of a more expanded soundstage with more of a 3rd row experience, and not on-stage or in the back row.

 The ISL55002 and THS4032 that I reported on in previous opamp rolling tests are more neutral open opamps, and less warm than the LM6172, while the LMH6622 seems to be between them (unless you use two together). It actually seems like the 6622 is fuller when used in the main amp, and thinner sounding when used in the ground channel. With the LM6172 in the ground channel, it can sometimes be hard to tell the difference between the 4032 and 6622 in the main channel, and I like either of them. But I find using two LMH6622 in the D2 to be a little thinner sounding than I care for. Yet, the LMH6622 in the main (with THS4032 in the ground) is fuller sounding and improves on what i liked about the ISL55002 in the main (with THS4032 in the ground channel) in my previous notes.

 As I said before, I also like the LM6172 in the ground channel with the LMH6622 in the main amp socket as this warms it up ever so slightly over the THS4032 in the ground. Basically, the LMH6622 in the main amp (and either the THS4032 or LM6172 in ground) is very good with both full size headphones and with IEM. Swapping the LM6172 into the main amp channel gives subtle changes and does bring the sound a little forward and more full in the mids, so it seems a little richer and more intimate. This is especially good with thin sounding headphones like the Proline 2500, and yet the mids are not too overpowering with any of my other full size headphones or IEMs. So, it is still possible to swap these two opamps for a different sound, and still use it with everything regardless.

 Basically, anyone with a D2 Viper should have an LM6172, a THS4032, a LMH6622 and maybe an ISL55002. I don't think anyone needs two LMH6622 (a little thin/recessed) or two LM6172 (too full/forward) at the same time, as they take the Viper to 2 different extremes. Although it might be useful to double up two of the same opamps as an EQ with some headphones that are too much in one or the other direction.

 HiFlight agrees with my assessment above, and has said the LMH6622 makes the D2 Viper sound like the iQube. I have had my Viper set up like this for about a week now, and plan to leave it like this for a while.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

The D2 Viper battery died while doing these comparisons to the 575 hour Boa, so I'm finding that the Boa with USB charging is definitely more convenient.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

FIRST POST IS UPDATED AT THE BOTTOM.

*Here is the ranking - see comments included:  Comments in Red were added 8/11/08*

*1. RSA Predator* (good bass and soundstage, more body, organic, full. Seems to do well with all my headphones, and not bad with any).
*2. D2 with rolled opamps* (LM6172/THS4032 - balanced, not too forward, sweet/magical Saxophone, almost mesmerizing like Predator. With my IEM I found it sounded best with the LM6172 and THS4032 swapped. This second opamp configuration was good with all my IEM, and not bad with my full size phones, except the RS-1 seem a bit bright and the Proline 2500 lacked fullness in the mids.)
*3. 2MOVE* (sweet mids and saxophone, midbass hmmm, failed the bad mastering diana krall test, great detail and air, too large and heavy)
*3. PICO* (smooth and transparent without coloration, Great DAC, won the bad mastering Diana Krall test, but nothing special with piano and sax like the others, too neutral as an amp - how is that possible, maybe not because there is something around 2Khz that is not right with RS-1. It really seems to shine with my re-cabled Denon D2000, Klipsch Image, Freq Show customs, but doesn't sound bad with anything but my Proline 2500).
*3. Headroom 2006 Micro Stack Portable* (a twin to the Pico's sound but better with piano, too BIG and out of production, with crossfeed mids are richer/warmer but highs rolled off).
*4. D2 Boa* (Sonic signature slightly warmer than the Pico, and between the D2 Viper with LM6172 in the main amp (warmer) vs THS4032 in the main amp and LM6172 in the ground (cooler). Timbre and tone was good, and mids were slightly forward and rich, and highs had slightly less extension than the D2 Viper, Pico and Predator (in that order). The sense of space with live performances was superior with the D2 Viper, Pico and Predator (in that order), and LESS with the Boa at 300 hours of burn-in. However, the Boa did open up and gain more air and ambience on the level of the other top ranked amps by 575 hours of burn-in. Listening to Diana Krall "Girl in the Other Room" (Temptation and other songs) seemed to indicate more of a low mids hump than the other amps, which also caused problems with Pianos and realism on that CD. The problems reproducing this particular CD remained after 575 hours of burn-in, however with other CD's like Jazz at the Pawnshop, Handel Messiah and Tsuyoshi Yamamoto the D2 Boa demonstrated improved transparency and realism with the extra burn-in. And with other music it seems the bass extension is slightly less than the others in the top ranks, but by 575 hours of burn-in (with my RS-1) the 16Hz audio tones on Binks Audio Test CD were clearly audible, and the volume of the 20Hz tone caught me by surprise, while 25Hz was a little disorienting!
*5. D1 with rolled opamps* (AD797 main/LM6643 buffer/LT6234 DAC - powerful, punchy, energetic, alive - not as bright as AD743/6643/6241. The D2 Boa moved up a little with more burn-in, but it wasn't quite good enough to rise up to a 3rd place tie. So the modded D1 and everything else had to move down a slot. The D1 via USB isn't as good as via optical, which is why it is not tied with the D2 Boa once the Boa improved with extended burn-in. 
*6. D2 stock* (thin in the middle, neutral with good bass - it was sound signature and not level of detail that held it back with the stock opamps.)
*7. Lyrix* (good frequency balance, DAC lacking details and air vs the others, but the amp is great)
*8. D1 stock opamps* (put AD823/NE5532/AD8616 back in right before I shipped it back for the 2-3db channel imbalance, too edgy and bright and distant. Very close to Lyrix as a DAC/Amp because the DAC is so good it makes up for the frequency response issues. Clearly in 8th if only using analog input. NOTE - my V1 opamps were from the initial run, and iBasso updated the opamps to V2 in November 07 to make it better than Lyrix.)


----------



## alxwang

Which one will works best for HD580. I know HD580 should use tube AMP but I really Do not want put a Tube Amp in Office. 
 Thanks.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

*[long rambling post mode on]*

 I have had a busy day. I did a "Grado-Fest" mini-meet with Blutarsky this afternoon, to compare his Melos SHA Gold and Zana Deux (fed by Stello DA100) to my Single Power Square Wave XL (fed by Apogee mini-DAC balanced out using Sigma 11 PSU)/ We listened to his Grado HP-1, HP-2, PS-1 and PF-325 along with my HD600 and RS-1 (both with APS V3 cable). (the PF-325 is a PS-1 driver in an HF-1 housing with metal cups from a SR-325 and a silver dragon cable) - This is the subject of a collaborative write-up coming soon in the "meet impressions" section. We'll be reporting more on those findings later, like we did with our 7/13/08 mini-meet. 

 Anyway, when we were done, as an afterthought we pulled out his Apogee Duet, along with my Pico, D2 Viper, D2 Boa and added into the mix a TTVJ portable Millett Hybrid with Headstage USB DAC cable. We listened to all of them off the Macbook with the RS-1. (I left the Predator at home in my other pants, and forgot that I had the HR Micro Stack in my gear bag with me, sorry)

 In a nutshell, and what is pertinent to this thread - the TTVJ with Headstage USB DAC Cable is fantastic with all these Grados, and despite the inferior $40 DAC (same DAC as in the Lyrix) we enjoyed the musicality of the TTVJ as much as the Apogee Duet headphone out. As a matter of fact, out of all these DAC/Amps, Blutarsky has set his sights on the TTVJ and Headstage DAC as his next portable purchase. The TTVJ can be used with an iPod while the Apogee Duet can't. The D2 Viper and Pico were sounding pretty close to the above two setups, but not quite as rich and solid, with the D2 Boa doing a surprising job keeping up (at 600 hours now). 

 The lesson here is that it seems that great amp/headphone synergy can outweigh the contribution from a great DAC or Amp section, when the goal is simply enjoying the presentation of the music as a whole. Switching to feeding the TTVJ with the D2 Viper, Boa or the Pico as DAC/Preamp was even better than with the Headstage DAC, but still not quite as detailed as the combined DAC/Amps due to the TTVJ being just a little less detailed than any of the SS amps. But boy does the music just flow with the TTVJ. When reviewing and comparing amps, you just forget that your are doing a review and just get sucked into listening to it. Then you have to go back and listen again to take notes of what you heard, because you forgot to the first time around. Based on purely technical merits, the TTVJ isn't the best, but the way it presents the music makes up for it - it's more emotional.

 Anyway, my next point is that I think I have fried my ears with sensory overload today 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 , because now with careful listening tonight back here at home with the Predator, Pico, D2 Viper, D2 Boa and HR Micro Stack (TTVJ battery needs a charge) *I find that I am very pleased with all of them, and their differences are less than their similarities.* The differences when feeding them via analog input from the same source (my iMod with Vcap dock) are even less. The Predator still has an big sound and bass delivery that brings it closest to the impact of the TTVJ in terms of feeling like a desktop amp. 

 However, I could be happy to have any one of these as my only USB DAC amp right now (although I might change my mind tomorrow). The HD600 and RS-1 are good with any of these USB DAC amps at this moment, while I switch from amp to amp. If we're only considering these few miniature USB DAC Amps that I have on hand tonight, for both iPod and computer, I'd still pick the Predator first, the D2 Viper second, the Pico third and the Boa fourth - but they are so close that none of them are losers. I consider the TTVJ/USB DAC Cable and Micro Stack to be more in the "transportable laptop use" category, although the TTVJ or Micro Amp could be strapped to an iPod Classic and not be terribly out of place. Throw the 2MOVE into the mix (which was a loaner that I returned months ago) and there are just too many good choices out there to mess up.

*[/long rambling post mode off]*


----------



## pendles

Hey HeadphoneManiac and Bluetoasty!!!

 Glad to hear some Pendles-Handiwork is finding its way to menace your mini-meets. Or, like Beevis and Butt-Head, did you guys just make up that headphone to prank all of head-fi international? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 "Pf-whoody-whatie?"
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 "You guys can't do that!!!"
 "Who do they think they are?"
 "It probably isn't even real."
 "Yeah. And I'll bet it sounds like shirt, too!"

 Rock on gentlemen!!!


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pendles* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hey HeadphoneManiac and Bluetoasty!!!

 Glad to hear some Pendles-Handiwork is finding its way to menace your mini-meets. Or, like Beevis and Butt-Head, did you guys just make up that headphone to prank all of head-fi international? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 "Pf-whoody-whatie?"
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 "You guys can't do that!!!"
 "Who do they think they are?"
 "It probably isn't even real."
 "Yeah. And I'll bet it sounds like shirt, too!"

 Rock on gentlemen!!!_

 

Heh, I wasn't sure you wanted to let that "cat out of the bag" so I didn't say whose Frankenstein's monster creation the PF-325 were. Besides, I wanted you all to myself should you ever decide to concoct another miracle in headphone abominations, err... I mean builds, instead of referring me to Larry at Headphile.


----------



## pendles

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Heh, I wasn't sure you wanted to let that "cat out of the bag" so I didn't say whose Frankenstein's monster creation the PF-325 were. Besides, I wanted you all to myself should you ever decide to concoct another miracle in headphone abominations, err... I mean builds, instead of referring me to Larry at Headphile. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

HeadphoneManiac, You have no idea how safe we are from any mad, uncontrollable, lemming-wild-rush, headphone-mod-stampede, ha. Head-fi is pretty directional in its annual run to the same cliff races, ha. And the water looks fine! But yes, I always refer the body politic to Larry's Headphile genius and gorgeous creations. Bluetoasty cheated, and one got by us, ha.

 On the other hand, if it is a miraculous abonimnation you want... you are beginning to tread on dangerous grounds!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 You two put on incredible mini-meets. I detect a definite sense of humor in your banterings. Word gets out, you'll have to rent a Rocky Mountain country club for the next one! The likes of you two running things... There is certain to be an abundance of crisp, fresh air...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 Do press on soldiers


----------



## Blutarsky

Quote:


 Originally Posted by pendles 
 Hey HeadphoneManiac and Bluetoasty!!!

 Glad to hear some Pendles-Handiwork is finding its way to menace your mini-meets. Or, like Beevis and Butt-Head, did you guys just make up that headphone to prank all of head-fi international? 

 "Pf-whoody-whatie?"
 "You guys can't do that!!!"
 "Who do they think they are?"
 "It probably isn't even real."
 "Yeah. And I'll bet it sounds like shirt, too!"

 Rock on gentlemen!!! 
 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Heh, I wasn't sure you wanted to let that "cat out of the bag" so I didn't say whose Frankenstein's monster creation the PF-325 were. Besides, I wanted you all to myself should you ever decide to concoct another miracle in headphone abominations, err... I mean builds, instead of referring me to Larry at Headphile. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Sorry in advance for the OT, wait Larry started it...

 Okay it appears I may need to unveil Dr. Pendlestein's monster for the world to see. Is it ready for this scrutiny? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Who cares its a blast! Dr. Pendlestein did a splendid job for my son, I initially sent them for a recable and woody addition. The rest of the story will have to be told later so I can rack up another post for my meager count. 

 BTW, the few "very qualified" headfiers who have heard it all love it, thought it was "magnificent" and/or tried to buy it. One very knowledgeable gentlemen was convinced John himself made it for me. One gentleman nearly didn't want to send it back from its modification - you know, you raise something from the dead and give it artificial life - creating an abomination ain't easy - especially one that sounds this fantastic. I can see getting attached. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 BTW, geez guys, don't loose lips have an adverse effect on vessels?


----------



## pendles

The Bluts says,  Quote:


 BTW, geez guys, don't loose lips have an adverse effect on vessels? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 

What?!

 Wasn't I was just talking about some odd, innocent, IC cables I sent to Colorado?

 You guys are starting to scare me... 

 Nope. I'm ok.

 (The lemmings are still headed in the same direction they were
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)


----------



## Blutarsky

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pendles* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The Bluts says, 

 What?!

 Wasn't I was just talking about some odd, innocent, IC cables I sent to Colorado?

 You guys are starting to scare me... 

 Nope. I'm ok.

 (The lemmings are still headed in the same direction they were
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)_

 

Okay for an evil genius...now you have to add the UADW to your creation signature.


----------



## pendles

Quote:


 Okay for an evil genius...now you have to add the UADW to your creation signature. 
 

Been their all the time, Bluts! I effectionately call it "The Dragonwoo". It is a hybrid "Ponywoo" build, for I prefer my own cable builds that cost more than the headphones themselves for my own Ponywoos, ha. But DANG! That Dragonwoo/Ponywoo/PF-1/PF-325i/Up Armored Dragon Woo is such a cool listen... Maybe the cable you chose was just the thing?! Given half a chance the big boys give thier high ends with the same killer amps--even the world class amp builders themselves, as you found out, that headphone extraordinaire sure livens up the playing field a tad, yes/no? And Dang that midrange? Holy Moly...

 Now leave me alone!


----------



## HiFlight

Larry...

 I had a chance at our mini-meet this weekend to compare my Topkit equipped Viper to a well burned-in Predator. IMHO, the Predator initially sounded better regardless of the phones used.

 I took my entire stock of opamps to the meet, "just in case", so tried to match the sound of the Predator as closely as possible.

 I finally arrived at a configuration that sounded so close that during blind testing, the 2 amps could not be told apart when playing the same selection from a high-end cd player. Several different individuals listened blind and were unable to consistently identify which was which. 

 The final Viper configuration is with the LMH6655 in the ground channel and the LTC6241HV in LR. The 6241HV is the opamp that Dr Xin referred to as "solid tube"

 At any rate, you might like to give this combo a try and see how similar you think it sounds to the Predator.

 Ron


----------



## Mr_Junesequa

the predator takes so long to burn in. Ive don all of 40 hours. Still waiting for a bit of sparkle


----------



## wired00

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HiFlight* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Larry...

 I had a chance at our mini-meet this weekend to compare my Topkit equipped Viper to a well burned-in Predator. IMHO, the Predator initially sounded better regardless of the phones used.

 I took my entire stock of opamps to the meet, "just in case", so tried to match the sound of the Predator as closely as possible.

 I finally arrived at a configuration that sounded so close that during blind testing, the 2 amps could not be told apart when playing the same selection from a high-end cd player. Several different individuals listened blind and were unable to consistently identify which was which. 

 The final Viper configuration is with the LMH6655 in the ground channel and the LTC6241HV in LR. The 6241HV is the opamp that Dr Xin referred to as "solid tube"

 At any rate, you might like to give this combo a try and see how similar you think it sounds to the Predator.

 Ron_

 

sounds great might have to try tracking these opamps down


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *wired00* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_sounds great might have to try tracking these opamps down 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I happen to have those opamps, but I blew the LTC6241HV in the Travagans White a few months ago, so I ordered another from HiFlight after he PM'd this info to me, and I will report back after I listen to it.

 Basically the two portable amps that I use the MOST are the Predator with 3G Nano, and the D2 Viper with iMod/Portable Vcap dock. If those are out in the car with my fanny pack and I want to listen to my laptop, then I grab the Pico or the Boa because they are good enough to save my weary body from a trip to the garage. This is assuming I don't plug the laptop into my Apogee mini-DAC in my main rig and listen to a real amp (Woo GES/HE60, Single Power Square Wave balanced/HD600, Woo WA6 maxed/RS-1) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I feel vindicated that the Predator was also ahead of the modded D2 viper with other people and not just me, but I've always said the Viper is excellent and if it can sound like a predator then that will be wonderful. Prior to this we have been able to make it sound like a Pico, or an iQube, or somewhat between the 2MOVE and Predator. iBasso NEEDS to start making these Vipers again.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *alxwang* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Which one will works best for HD580. I know HD580 should use tube AMP but I really Do not want put a Tube Amp in Office. 
 Thanks._

 

Sorry, just saw this question. 

 If all you need is a small amp with USB DAC, and recognize that the portables will not wring the most performance out of the HD580, then you will be fine with the Predator, Pico, 2MOVE, D2 Viper or HR Micro Stack, and if you don't need ear splitting volume the Boa will do okay too. 

 The HD580/600/650 will almost always sound better with a full power desktop amp, and some can be fairly small, like the Dark Voice 336i or Woo WA6 (the TTVJ Portable Millett Hybrid is powerful and tubes, but may be a little too forward for the Senns).


----------



## robenco18

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ iBasso NEEDS to start making these Vipers again._

 

I know a place where you can still get them because they received 50 of the 100 and still have enough in stock to last them a month, or so they told me.

 edit: can I say that? or am I not supposed to be advertising any company, even if I didn't say the name....


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *robenco18* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I know a place where you can still get them because they received 50 of the 100 and still have enough in stock to last them a month, or so they told me.

 edit: can I say that? or am I not supposed to be advertising any company, even if I didn't say the name...._

 

If you are not affiliated with the company and don't profit from recommending them, then post it.

 Are these ones that are available a special high gain version or special OEM order?


----------



## robenco18

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If you are not affiliated with the company and don't profit from recommending them, then post it.

 Are these ones that are available a special high gain version or special OEM order?_

 

You should know me well enough by now to know I have no idea what the answer to that question is. Maybe this will answer it for you. If it does, please let me know what the answer is -

STEREO - http://www.stereo.com.sg



 .....is one better than the other (high gain vs. special OEM)


----------



## Navyblue

Larry,

 First I'd like to thank you for your great review and effort to help the community. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I have been running my Etymotic ER-4P right out of my DAP for sometime. It seems that the DAP isn't putting out enough current for the IEM, because out of all my other headphone jacks I got more bass and a fuller sound than what I got out of the DAP. I could turn on the bass boost but I got the feeling that it takes away a little bit of transparency. So I am considering if I should add an amp right now.

 I don't intend to spend too much. I've been looking at D2 Viper, D2 Boa and the Headsix (supposedly similar sounding to 2Move). At times the ER-4P can sound a little cold out of my DAP, especially at lower volume. While I am at it, I thought that I might as well try to add lushness, warmth and sweetness to the overall sound. Which of these would be my best bet? I'm open to any ideas.

 Thanks.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Navyblue* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Larry,

 First I'd like to thank you for your great review and effort to help the community. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I have been running my Etymotic ER-4P right out of my DAP for sometime. It seems that the DAP isn't putting out enough current for the IEM, because out of all my other headphone jacks I got more bass and a fuller sound than what I got out of the DAP. I could turn on the bass boost but I got the feeling that it takes away a little bit of transparency. So I am considering if I should add an amp right now.

 I don't intend to spend too much. I've been looking at D2 Viper, D2 Boa and the Headsix (supposedly similar sounding to 2Move). At times the ER-4P can sound a little cold out of my DAP, especially at lower volume. While I am at it, I thought that I might as well try to add lushness, warmth and sweetness to the overall sound. Which of these would be my best bet? I'm open to any ideas.

 Thanks. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

The D2 Viper with LM6172 in the main amp and THS4032 is fantastic with my 47 ohm Altec Lansing IM716 (sibling to the ER4) and adds great bass and warmth to these IEM without needing to be switched into high gain, so I suspect that would be #1 with the ER4. http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f103/s...ess-up-338443/

 However, in my testing above, while the modded Viper was best I still thought the IM716 had good sound quality with ALL of the amps I tried. I had the Headsix in low gain for my testing and it really needs to be in high gain with those IEM, but I didn't want to open it up to change the gain. SO, for that reason I think the Boa is probably a better choice than Headsix, because the Boa gain switch is on the outside and since the Boa is warmer than the stock D2 Viper.

 I have read that the ER4P are hard to drive, which you seem to confirm, so even one of the high gain Vipers out there should be able to drive the ER4P without concern about hiss (which with very sensitive IEM like Shure SE530 or Livewires or Freq customs hiss can often be a problem). But if you did get hiss you could always get a P-S adapter for the ER4P.


----------



## Navyblue

Larry,

 Thanks for the advice. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ER-4P is quite sensitive, it hisses with my Sony DAP, yet it isn't easy to drive it properly. But the problem can be solved easily.

 I wasn't aware there was another great thread by you, else I probably won't be asking here. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 So is the gain in the Viper switchable? Does "high gain" Viper means it is stuck at high gain?

 I have heard the Viper once, I assume that it was stock. I find it have a very warm and liquid midrange. It seems that you find the stock Viper quite neutral. I also find the SA6 warm, and you find it quite neutral too. So I guess your definition of warm is a couple of notched up from mine. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 So when you say something is warm sounding, it's probably what I'm looking for.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Navyblue* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Larry,

 Thanks for the advice. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ER-4P is quite sensitive, it hisses with my Sony DAP, yet it isn't easy to drive it properly. But the problem can be solved easily.

 I wasn't aware there was another great thread by you, else I probably won't be asking here. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 So is the gain in the Viper switchable? Does "high gain" Viper means it is stuck at high gain?

 I have heard the Viper once, I assume that it was stock. I find it have a very warm and liquid midrange. It seems that you find the stock Viper quite neutral. I also find the SA6 warm, and you find it quite neutral too. So I guess your definition of warm is a couple of notched up from mine. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 So when you say something is warm sounding, it's probably what I'm looking for. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

There is a "high gain Viper that was ordered as an OEM project and a few accidentally shipped to people with pre-orders of the Viper - this had lo/hi gain switch, but both settings multiplied the gain more than a typical viper (good for people with a very quiet or low output source). Very few people have these, and I don't know who is selling the high gain model for sure.

 As for warm vs thin or cold - I think warm and liquid midrange also depends on the headphones being used, not just the amp (remember synergy). With my Proline 2500 or AKG K240M 600 ohm, I find the Predator, D2 viper w/rolled opamps, 2MOVE and Headsix are more neutral than warm - but with other headphones the amps are warm. Then you pair a Pico or stock D2 with those same headphones above and it sounds a little thin (the RS-1 are kinda in between, straddling the fence). But use a Yamaha HP-1 ortho, Denon D2000, HD600 or Edition 9 with the Pico or stock D2 or Micro Amp and you get warm again. And being "warm" doesn't always mean "forward" sounding too, because I find the D2000 and RS-1 with the right amp to be warm but not too forward, while the HD600 and Edition 9 and others are warm and often more forward sounding with those same amps.

 When I used the SA6 in my IEM/Amp synergy impressions thread, I did find them warm with Predator, Headsix, Headstage, TTVJ or D2 with certain opamps - but with the Pico or D2 with THS4032 or LMH6622 in the main amp the SA6 were closer to neutral.

 Going back to the D2000 "warm but not forward", another example (although unrelated) of warm but not forward sounding is my Stax SR-Lambda or Lambda Signature (with 3 out of 4 amps), while the Stax SR-5NB are both warm and forward regardless of the amp. But if use a Sennheiser HEV70 amp it will make the Lambdas sound forward because it is more midrange oriented - that freq response suits the Senn HE60 better, while the Stax SRM-1 amp makes the HE60 sound thin and more distant (Woo GES or SRD-7 pro fixes that) it makes the Lambdas sound just right. So, again it is all about synergy or lack thereof.

 Anyway, I think I tend to focus on the 250-1000Hz range lower mids when discussing warm vs thin - I can't recall a headphone that is full in that frequency range that also lacks mid-bass bass yet (although the K240M 600 ohm are close). I suppose some people would call it thin if the bass was lacking but the mids were still full, but I just call that bass-lite or lacking impact (depending on what is missing).


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

I will be getting a review sample of the Vivid Technologies V1 USB headphone amp soon. It may end up being the best bang for the buck USB DAC amp at $99 + $7 S&H, so I am eager to review it after I burn it in. (Basic Lyrix with DAC is $129 + S&H)

 I am in the information gathering stage right now, but I will post more when it comes time to post the review. Similar to the Headstage it uses an AD8397 opamp, and it uses the PCM2704 DAC chip, automatically switches between DAC input & analog when you plug something into it, charges via USB and also has an optional rapid charger that speed up the 5v charging by a factor of 3, is a small 2.6" square by 1.1" tall, and gain of 14db I think is close to a gain of between 5-6x, and has a 1yr warrantee.

vividaudiotech.com - Headphone Amplifiers


----------



## slwiser

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I will be getting a review sample of the Vivid Technologies V1 USB headphone amp soon. It may end up being the best bang for the buck USB DAC amp at $99 + $7 S&H, so I am eager to review it after I burn it in. (Basic Lyrix with DAC is $129 + S&H)

 I am in the information gathering stage right now, but I will post more when it comes time to post the review. Similar to the Headstage it uses an AD8397 opamp, and it uses the PCM2704 DAC chip, automatically switches between DAC input & analog when you plug something into it, charges via USB and also has an optional rapid charger that speed up the 5v charging by a factor of 3, is a small 2.6" square by 1.1" tall, and gain of 14db I think is close to a gain of between 5-6x, and has a 1yr warrantee.

vividaudiotech.com - Headphone Amplifiers_

 

Sounds like a clone of the Total BitHead from Headroom. 

 edit: "Sounds like" should have read "Looks like".


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *slwiser* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sounds like a clone of the Total BitHead from Headroom._

 

Not sure I understand - you've heard it and they sound alike, or the specs are similar?

 I thought the bithead uses AAA battery without charging, and has crossfeed, and a funky case.


----------



## sennsay

Hi Skylab and HeadphoneAddict, thanks a bunch for all the brilliant work (?) on the reviews, I was sold on a Meier 2Move - especially after looking at their website - and I ought to be receiving mine in a few days. There is also a Zero shipping out, though the 2Move will be here first, I reckon. 
 Now, I may have missed something somewhere - hardly surprising since I have read hundreds of pages on the Zero in the last couple of days and I can barely see anything!!! - but can anyone tell me if the op-amps in the 2Move can be rolled and if so what were the results and recommendations please?
 I have a small selection of op-amps coming, mostly for the Zero and my main h/p amp that I've been using for 18 months or so.
 Also, being unfamiliar with the portable scene, why/what is the ground op-amp? What effect does it have on SQ? If the DAC section of the 2Move is not it's finest feature - say, compared to the Pico and Predator, and I AM able to roll the op-amps, what do I put in there? 
 Once again, apologies if it's already been covered. Cheers all.


----------



## slwiser

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Not sure I understand - you've heard it and they sound alike, or the specs are similar?

 I thought the bithead uses AAA battery without charging, and has crossfeed, and a funky case._

 

The Specs are almost the same except for the extra X-feed circuit in the Bithead and the different battery type.


----------



## direcow

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sennsay* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ Now, I may have missed something somewhere - hardly surprising since I have read hundreds of pages on the Zero in the last couple of days and I can barely see anything!!! - but can anyone tell me if the op-amps in the 2Move can be rolled and if so what were the results and recommendations please?_

 


 Nope, you can't roll the opamps on the 2move...


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *slwiser* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The Specs are almost the same except for the extra X-feed circuit in the Bithead and the different battery type._

 

The Lyrix specs are similar as well, in that regard.


----------



## sennsay

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *direcow* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Nope, you can't roll the opamps on the 2move..._

 

Ok thanks, direcow, looks like I'm just going to have to enjoy listening to it as it is! Maybe that's a _good_ thing! 
 Would you have any ideas/info on the other queries of mine?


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sennsay* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ok thanks, direcow, looks like I'm just going to have to enjoy listening to it as it is! Maybe that's a good thing! 
 Would you have any ideas/info on the other queries of mine?_

 

The DAC does not hold the 2MOVE back, it may not be as sophisticated as the Pico DAC but it does a good job of detail extraction without much negatives - the slightly smaller and more intimate soundstage of the 2MOVE vs the Pico is just as much a function of the 2MOVE amp as it is the DAC section. It retains much of that flavor even when fed an analog source into the 3.5 mm input.

 I am not an EE so I am explaining this as basic as I can and may still only be 90% right - an opamp in the ground channel is referring a 4-channel architecture in the amplifier where there is both an opamp in the main amp section and one in the ground - instead of other amps that might use a different ground railsplitter design (like using a TLE2624 chip for the ground reference that can't pass as much current as the 4-channel design.

 I don't know much of anything about the design of the 2MOVE and what is inside, sorry.


----------



## LFC_SL

A stupid question 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Does the Predator use USB power only when in DAC mode and thus the battery does not drain? RSA web page not clear. Thanks


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

When driving headphones, all these amps use battery whether using DAC or not - but the DAC portion usually doesn't draw any power from the battery and runs off the USB.

 The D2 Boa can keep the battery full while plugged into USB, as can the Vivid Technologies. All the others will run the battery down, unless plugged into the wall at the same time.


----------



## mrarroyo

Larry, have you received the op-amps from Ron? If yes, how does your iBasso Viper sound?


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

I got the replacement LTC6241HV since I blew my first one in the Travagans White, but haven't had a chance since I got it this weekend to try it. I already had the LMH6655 for the ground channel, so I am all set to try this tomorrow.

 I did try the OPA627AU on a small soldered 2:1 adapter in the viper, and it was nice, but I went back to the LMH6622/THS4032 combo at the end of the testing. 

 So, LTC6241HV/LMH6655 to make it sound like a Predator is the next up for testing...


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

I have 82 hours on the Vivid Technology V1 USB DAC amp, so another 208 hours and I'll be ready to start reviewing it. No spoilers yet, sorry.

 I am also just starting testing of the D2 Viper with HiFlights "Predator Clone" LTC6241HV main amp / LMH6655 ground channel, and so far it sounds very nice with about 5 minutes of listening. I will have to run out to the car to get my Predator that I left in there with my Nano, and then do some comparisons tonight, after the kids are off to bed and leave me alone


----------



## jamato8

I have the HV in my Viper and it does sound surprisingly good, very good.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have the HV in my Viper and it does sound surprisingly good, very good._

 

Yeah, I woulda tried it sooner if I hadn't heard my first one go "pop" when I plugged it into another amp. I am still trying to get around to testing the Edition 9 on my rolled Woo WA6 and Single Power, and then spend time listening to the D2 Viper vs Predator.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Wow! I'm using my old HD600 with stock cable right now (the setup is from an earlier test with a new vs old pair of HD600, both plugged into the same amp). I started this session of testing the new D2 opamps using my iMod and portable Vcap dock while the laptop is tied up burning in the V1 amp.

 There are some songs where I can't tell the difference between the Predator and D2 Viper with HiFlights "Predator Clone" LTC6241HV main amp / LMH6655 ground channel. Like Tsuyoshi Yamamoto "Smooth Jazz Festival" song titled "Somewhere Over the Rainbow"; until the string bass solo comes in at 4:20 and then I can hear the bass has just a little more body and impact with the Predator.

 And in other songs like Tsuyoshi Yamamoto "Smooth Jazz Festival" song titled "Sweet Sound" the bass is slightly more solid and present in the deepest registers, and the strings also have a little more micro-detail in the sound of the bow drawn across the strings.

 Switching to some Nora Jones "Not Too Late", the song Wish I could, with the D2 I was quite surprised when her voice came in being so natural and present and smooth. With the Predator on this CD the treble is a little more aggressive and adds that smokey and slightly edgy sound to her voice (but no sibilance and this is a good CD to test for that).

 Finishing it up with some male vocals with Jack Johnson "Sleep through the Static", the song All at Once - with the Predator his voice sounds like I'm in the studio with him, and the bass is deep and strong. The difference in treble heard with Nora Jones is now difficult to hear when switching to the D2, as it can't be easily heard in his voice in but a few of the songs (like in the song "Hope" where the D2 Viper is just a little smoother and less aggressive). In the song "Angel" the Predator again has a little more micro-detail in the guitar strings. Even in the bass the two amps is more alike in most tracks on this CD (but not all), but when I can hear the difference it is slightly in the favor of the Predator (like the intro drums into "What You Thought You Need"). 

 So Wow! It is so close that I don't think I will ever change the D2 opamps opamps if this assessment holds up later with the RS-1, D2000, Edition 9, Klipsch Image and Livewires. They are not absolutely identical, but I can't imagine the D2 getting any closer to the Predator than this - I'd bet that it is 98-99% there as far as duplicating it.

 I'll report back after trying the two through their DAC, and with the other headphones mentioned above. GREAT JOB HiFlight!


----------



## RAQemUP

So HeadphoneAddict, how much would a LTC6241HV and LMH6655 opamp combo cost shipped?

 Bah damn Headfi, so far this week whenever I read a thread, I end up buying something. My Cowon D2 arrived this weekend, my 16 gig SDHC for the D2 earlier this week, my Fiio E3 amp yesterday, Klipsch Image X10s are arriving tomorrow afternoon, and now looking to buy 2 opamps.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *RAQemUP* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So HeadphoneAddict, how much would a LTC6241HV and LMH6655 opamp combo cost shipped?

 Bah damn Headfi, so far this week whenever I read a thread, I end up buying something. My Cowon D2 arrived this weekend, my 16 gig SDHC for the D2 earlier this week, my Fiio E3 amp yesterday, Klipsch Image X10s are arriving tomorrow afternoon, and now looking to buy 2 opamps. _

 

PM HiFlight, but I'd estimate about $30-32 for the two. Might still be nice to have an LM6172 with THS4032, maybe a LMH6622 as well. Depends on what I find with my other headphones... 

 Sorry about your wallet!


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

So far this D2 Viper opamp combo is a winner with the Klipsch Image and RS-1, but the RS-1 wipe the floor with the Image. It is just great with RS-1. I can't stop listening to Pat Methent Day Trip...


----------



## jma790

Hi headphoneaadict, thanks for the review, it's really enjoyable.
 I have one question, can you tell me if the difference in sound quality (specially of the DAC) of the Predator and the 2Move is so big to justify the additional $250?


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jma790* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi headphoneaadict, thanks for the review, it's really enjoyable.
 I have one question, can you tell me if the difference in sound quality (specially of the DAC) of the Predator and the 2Move is so big to justify the additional $250?_

 

Probably not - the biggest reason for the Predator is tiny size, 56 hour re-chargable battery, ability to leave connected to both sources (analog and dac) and change between the two with a flip of a switch, and the 3 gain settings and low gain for IEM. To me those are all worth it, and I do like the sound slightly better on the Predator.


----------



## jma790

How would I like to test a Predator... but no one wants to lend me one 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ... If only I could get good audio equipment here in my country... and if I weren't a student


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jma790* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How would I like to test a Predator... but no one wants to lend me one 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ... If only I could get good audio equipment here in my country... and if I weren't a student 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

If you contact Ray Samuels, and have good feed-back on head-fi, maybe he'll send a demo unit to try out. You never know till you ask and get turned down. But, screw Ray over and it would ruin things for everyone else.


----------



## RAQemUP

So whats your favorite opamp combo so far for the Image X10? The LTC6241HV/LMH6655 combo is tops now?


----------



## lolhahaha

So you haven't tried this one yet?:


----------



## RAQemUP

HeadphoneAddict is only reviewing Amp/DAC combos in this thread. That Decware Zen Head ZH1 is just an amp, no DAC.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *RAQemUP* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So whats your favorite opamp combo so far for the Image X10? The LTC6241HV/LMH6655 combo is tops now?_

 

Yes - so far I like these opamps with the Image X10, Livewires, KSC35, Grado RS-1, HD600, Edition 9 and D2000. I haven't tried other phones with this combo yet.


----------



## evilmerlin

So does this LTC6241HV/LMH6655 combo work better for the q-JAYS than the ISL55002/THS4032 combo?

 Edit: Which LMH6655 does it use? There are quite a number of varients out there. Could you provide the last 2 (or 3) alphabets of the version?


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *evilmerlin * /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So does this LTC6241HV/LMH6655 combo work better for the q-JAYS than the ISL55002/THS4032 combo?

 Edit: Which LMH6655 does it use? There are quite a number of varients out there. Could you provide the last 2 (or 3) alphabets of the version?_

 


 Sorry, I don't have the q-JAYS or Super.fi 5 pro anymore, as I replaced them with the Image. Howver, I think the opamps will work fine with the q-JAYS but possibly not as well as the ISL55002/THS4032. The q-JAYŠ are fairly forward like the Image, but if I recall had more coloration in the low mids made made them more picky about the amp. I can't check right now, but I would guess the D2 with 6241/6655 would tie with Predator for third best amp with q-JAYS, which still sounded pretty good. I believe the LM6172/THS4032 was too much mids for q-JAYS, as was the Headsix, but the other amps in my review were fine with them. I didn't have the Headsix when I had the loaner 2MOVE.

 The opamp has printed on top:
 MSAB 
 LMH66
 55MA


----------



## mastumoto5

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have 82 hours on the Vivid Technology V1 USB DAC amp, so another 208 hours and I'll be ready to start reviewing it. No spoilers yet, sorry._

 

hi i'm waiting your review to choose between the d2 boa and the vivid v1, just tell me i have good reason to wait.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mastumoto5 * /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_hi i'm waiting your review to choose between the d2 boa and the vivid v1, just tell me i have good reason to wait. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I hit 164 hours last night burning in via DAC, and about 18 hours burning in with iPod so far.

 The only spoiler I'll give is that it drives my HD600 better than the Boa - and Infected Mushroom "Dancing with the Kadafi" is a Wow! experience with HD600. It wasn't quite so good with Grado out of the box, but is improving with age. I've not listened much during burn-in...


----------



## evilmerlin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sorry, I don't have the q-JAYS or Super.fi 5 pro anymore, as I replaced them with the Image. Howver, I think the opamps will work fine with the q-JAYS but possibly not as well as the ISL55002/THS4032. The q-JAYŠ are fairly forward like the Image, but if I recall had more coloration in the low mids made made them more picky about the amp. I can't check right now, but I would guess the D2 with 6241/6655 would tie with Predator for third best amp with q-JAYS, which still sounded pretty good. I believe the LM6172/THS4032 was too much mids for q-JAYS, as was the Headsix, but the other amps in my review were fine with them. I didn't have the Headsix when I had the loaner 2MOVE.

 The opamp has printed on top:
 MSAB 
 LMH66
 55MA_

 

Thanks for the info Larry, will give those a try once I get my hands on a Viper and the opamps.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Had a PM asking me how to roll opamps in the D2 Viper.

 This is just such a hard thing to do adequately via typing with no photos available. I've give you this bit of information, but I can't do better than this. I am not sure I can answer more questions, because everything is in here.

 If you have the opamps soldered onto a DIP8 adpater or those that come ready to plug into the sockets, open your D2 viper. If you don't have them ready to install, you've got the wrong guy. 

 To start, turn off the amp and unplug it from everything before you start. I don't know what size tool it takes - I got a cheap one at home depot with a bunch of unlabeled tips, and tried them all till I found one that fits. With the amp laying flat, remove only the two top screws on the front panel and the rear panel, and the top half of the amp case can be lifted off.

 With the front of the open amplifier facing you, you will see one LT1364 opamp plugged into a socket that lies between the volume knob and battery. Of the 8 pins securing the opamp to the socket on the circuit board, the pin on the left front corner is pin #1. You might want to take a photo of it, so if you have to put it back in you know which way it is facing. After you pry the glue off the edges of the opamp adapter (that is holding it in place), you can pop it out. Use your best judgement to get this opamp loose. Break the amp and it isn't my fault.

 The new opamp when viewed from the top will clearly have two rows of 4 pins. If you have one that was soldered onto an adapter, ignore the pins that come right off the chip and only pay attention to the ones near the edges of the adapter. On the adapter, one of the 8 pins will have a square of solder toping it, instead of a circle like the other 7 pins. The one with the Square is pin #1. 

 If your opamp is not a smaller SOIC opamp soldered onto a bigger DIP adapter, but is actually a DIP8 opamp (like some LM6172), orient the chip so the notch on the top of the chip is on your left. Pin #1 will be the one closest to you on the left.

 So, line it up with the empty socket and insert it with pin #1 on the front row, with pin #1 on the left. When you press to seat the opamp into the socket, press on the edges of the adapter not the center where the chip sits, or you may break the solder connections between the opamp and the adapter.

 To do the opamp for the ground channel, you will find it to the left side of the battery closer to the rear of the amp (with the front of the amp still facing you). This opamp socket is rotated 90 degrees counter-clockwise. So, instead of the rows of pins running left/right, they run front/back - so pin #1 is now on the front right (with the volume knob of the amp facing you). This means pin #1 will be closest to the battery. Remove and replace as before.

 You might need to put a small piece of foam or something soft like styrofoam (but not flammable) on top of the opamp to keep it from unseating when the amp is bumped around or dropped. Or a small amount of blue-tack against the edge of the opamp where it meets the socket could hold it down.

 Turn on the amp, plug in headphones and a source (ipod or USB cable), and test it. If it works you can re-install the lid. The amp can pick up RF interference with the lid removed, so if you hear noise like it's picking up the hard drive moving, try putting the lid on first. If that doesn't fix the noise, you may have a bad opamp or one with the wrong specs for the amp design. If it's making painfully loud squealing, or totally silent with music playing, then you did something wrong or you killed the opamp, or it isn't seated tightly, or is in backwards, or it isn't compatable with the amp.

 Later,

 Larry


----------



## RAQemUP

This thread is a great thread to read for opamp rolling with the D2 Viper.

 The proper screw tip for the D2 screws is the torx T6 tip.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *evilmerlin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So does this LTC6241HV/LMH6655 combo work better for the q-JAYS than the ISL55002/THS4032 combo?

 Edit: Which LMH6655 does it use? There are quite a number of varients out there. Could you provide the last 2 (or 3) alphabets of the version?_

 

Alert!

 I slept for 9 hours with the Viper playing quiet music, and it was out of juice when I woke up. Yesterday it ran out in less than 7 hours.

 So, the 6241/4032 opamps give half the play time of the stock Viper (<7 vs 15). Basically I would call this a desktop/office opamp set (or listen to music between classes opamp set). I need to decide what the best "go on vacation without charger" opamps are. Back to the drawing board.

 Larry


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

*Newest Update 09/08/08: Added Vivid Technology V1 - long with pre-burn-in and post burn-in comments.*

 The Vivid Technology V1 USB DAC portable amp is an AD8397 opamp driven amp, with TL2426 railsplitter for ground, which is similar to the Headstage and Penguinamp choice. The DAC Chip is the PCM2704. The battery is 900mAH 3.6V, but the amplifier always runs off a boosted 5.5V supply. The Lithium Ion battery charger is a smart charger that stops charging when the battery is full. The amp always takes power from the battery in all cases (like the Pico), is trickle charged by the USB port, and can be charged 3x faster with the optional wall wart. I ran the V1 for 15-16 hours on battery via analog input and went to bed with it still running, and when I checked it after 22 hours the battery was dead. I get 15 hours from the stock D2 Viper (7-9 hours with various new opamps), over 20 hours with the Pico, over 24 hours with the Boa (never tried longer) and over 48 hours with the Predator (neck paid attention for longer).

 The ABS case is 2.6"(66mm) x 2.6"(66mm) x 1.1"(28mm), so held next to the Predator and eyeballing it, it looks about 1cm deeper and taller, and about 1.5cm wider (still smaller than the Headstage). It fits under the 3G nano well, only sticking out about 4 mm on either side of the Nano when the nano is in a leather case. You can visit vividaudiotech.com - Headphone Amplifiers to read up on the specs and amp, and see pictures.

 Here is the claimed power output of the V1 (using 1KHz tone, no THD specified) vs the Firestone Cute Beyond. 

 600 ohm - 50mW
 300 ohm - 100mW
 200 ohm - 150mW
 100 ohm - 200mW
 32 ohm - 780mW
 16 ohm - 1.5W

 Cute Beyond published power output:

 600 ohm - 60mw (AKG K240M = 106 db)
 300 ohm - 120mw (HD600 = 118 db)
 120 ohm - 300mw (AKG501 = 119 db)
 75 ohm - 480mw (AKG 270S = 119 db)
 32 ohm - 320mw (Grado SR60/80 = 121 db)

 This is an amp that clearly benefits from burn-in, and at 350 hours it will sound much better than it did out of the box. Taken from my notes on 8/23/08, using the MS-1 with the amp right out of the box, I felt the upper mids were just a little strident/prominent. It sounded punchy with good bass, good separation and detail, but soundstage somewhat was somewhat constricted. There was some obvious sibilance with Diana Krall "Girl in the Other Room" and a few other songs. The volume knob was around 11 o'clock for normal listening. Without any burn-in, even my Creative Xmod with 200 hours was smoother and more transparent/natural with bigger soundstage. 

 With less than 15 minutes on the amp and a 2 hour break, I came back and switched to the RS-1. The cymbals shimmer and hang with nice decay, but there is still sibilance on Diana Krall. The upper mids are still prominent but it is more transparent with the RS-1. With bowls bass should be a little stronger than it is, while flats improve the bass and sibilance but shrink the soundstage. Volume with RS-1 is now around 10 o'clock for normal listening, and I will never listen as loud as it gets at 12 o'clock. Trying some test tomes, out of the box the 20Hz tone is in-audible and missing, 25Hz okay, 31.5Hz strong. I had to EQ out 2 db at 2Khz, and 3 db out at 4Khz and 8Khz to fix the prominent upper mids.

 At 40 hours of burn-in using 20 min pink noise alternating with 2 min silence I switched to HD600, which adds about 1 hour to the volume knob and I have it at 11 for normal listening and 1 o'clock for very loud music. The sound was nice and warm but clear, crisp and detailed. The HD600 really sounds better with the V1 than with my earlier tests with RS-1 or MS-1. At 60 hours with HD600 I notice a big jump in bass, almost too much midbass, but at the same time it is a little smoother upper mids too. With that kind of change, I decided to wait until the DAC was burned in at the halfway point thru the 300 hour recommended burn-in before listening again. At 164 hours with the RS-1 again, I was able to reduce the EQ settings in half vs the out of box EQ settings above. I then moved it over to my iRiver to finish burn-in via the analog input as recommended by the manufacturer, who stated the DAC and anolog inputs use different circuits and I should split the 300 hours between them. (note: I have over 2000 hours on Predator, over 1000 on Viper, over 600 hours on Pico Boa and Micro Amp and Lyrix with USB DAC Cable, and 350 on V1 for the review).

 By 9/7/08 the V1 has 350 hours (164 on DAC), and I am ready for listening. Since it is not quite up to the level of the Predator, D2 Viper with rolled opamps or Pico, I returned the D2 Viper to the stock opamps for the comparisons. The day before I had run the test tones again with RS-1 to compare to out of the box results, and 20Hz is now clearly audible on the V1 while 25Hz is only slightly rolled off vs out of the box where it was not as good. The Pico and Predator are audible to 16Hz, and have more energy at 20Hz than V1, with D2 Boa slightly behind those. The V1 bass extension is similar to the Boa and superior to the stock D2 Viper which is noticeably rolled off at 20Hz. After testing the bass extension with the RS-1 vs out of the box, I had to take a break for my daughter's 15th birthday and come back the next day to start listening to music, so I burned it in an extra 24 hours. 

 I started with the HD600 and stock cable and found that the tonal balance and Timbre is nice, with good bass, mids and treble. There is no boosted bass, just flat and extended and almost as strong as the Predator but not quite. Certainly no lack in bass, and not bass light. With Infected Mushroom "Dancing with the Kadafi" the bass is rockin', punchy and hits hard. That was my first WoW! moment with the V1 amp (goosebumps and all when I was at 164 hours), which is why I chose to start with HD600. Switching to string bass, it is not supposed to hit hard and it sounds like it should - crisp and quick and present. So it isn't over-boosting the bass levels but it is bangin' when it is supposed to be.

 Mids are rich and warm, and not very peaky or resonating in the ears or head, although there does seem to be a mild low mids "boxy" coloration that is very similar to that of the D2 Boa, especially with close miked female vocals. This makes some female vocals like Shelby Lynn in "Just a little Lovin" or Diana Krall in "Girl in the Other Room" sound slightly artificial or less transparent vs Predator/Pico/D2 Viper/HR MicroAmp. Similar to the D2 Boa, I have a hard time noticing this coloration with acoustic and wind instruments or electronic program material, as it's mostly only an issue with vocals. And, this is not with all vocals - switching to Herbie Hancock "River:The Joni Letters" with Nora Jones singing the first track, her voice seems more natural with both the V1 and D2 Boa, and male vocals like Jack Johnson "Sleep Through the Sttaic sound fine with them too.

 Treble has a nice sparkle, shimmer and decay to cymbals, and pianos have a sharp quick attack but do not drill into the head. With HD600 the V1 does not accentuate the sibilance present in the Diana Krall recording above, which is a test album I use for that purpose. I also use the "Girl in the Other Room" to test for lower midrange coloration as Diana Krall is very close mike'd and it is easy to push the lower mids over the top as above (which is exactly what I heard).

 The soundstage is similar to the 2MOVE, not too close and not too distant, although it is somewhat more forward than the Predator (making it closer to that of the 2MOVE). It is certainly more forward sounding than the Pico, D2 Viper and D2 Boa or HR Micro Amp, while the other amps have a larger more open soundstage vs the V1. Listening via the USB DAC for the entire review, despite being somewhat forward sounding there is still a good sense of space and ambience - but there is a little less transparency than with the Predator or other amps, like watching through a clean window instead of an open window. It does seem to be a little more micro-detailed than the Headstage Lyrix USB DAC or iBasso D1 USB DAC were. The V1 DAC is also not as smooth sounding as the Pico (or the other amps to some degree), but I wonder how much of that is the Pico and other amps being less forward and not having the slightly more pronounced upper mids (2KHz-8Khz) of the V1. 

 A nice loud but enjoyable volume level setting with HD600 and the Macbook is about 11-1 o'clock, depending on the program material. I find listening to most music at 2 o'clock is too loud for me, and 3 o'clock just starts to clip a little with no change going higher than 3 o'clock. Again, I would likely never want to listen loud enough to clip with HD600. The V1 has no problem driving the HD600, and the same volume at 11 o'clock with the V1 needs 1:30 o'clock in high gain with the D2 Boa. 5 o'clock (max) on the Boa is like 1:30 - 2 o'clock on the V1, and it sounds like the V1 can double the power of the Boa by 3 o'clock (sounds a good 3-4 db louder). On quiet classical music with wide dynamic range, this is a big plus over the Boa and stock D2 Viper.

 This amp really seems to have some nice synergy with the HD600, and for $99 is a screamin' deal for you HD600 owners. It makes the HD600 sound good with all types of music - even if the Predator and Pico are a little better, they may not be $400 better for many people. The D2 Viper with rolled opamps and 2MOVE and Micro Amp are also slightly better with HD600, but still 2-3x the cost. This is a $99 amp that competes well with $170-180 amps driving HD600 (Stock Viper, Boa and Headstage). But switching from HD600 to the RS-1 (APS V3 cable and bowls) while I was listening to Jack Johnson is where those prominent uppers mids (2KHz - 8KHz) become more noticeable. After a few hours with the HD600 and stock cable, switching to the RS-1 with APS V3 cable was almost a shock to me. 

 As mentioned before, with the V1 fresh out of the box and driving the RS-1 I had to EQ out about 3 db at 2, 4 and 8Khz, but with the stock HD600 I needed NO EQ. After 164 hours of burn-in I had found that the amount of EQ needed with RS-1 and bowls had decreased to only removing 1 or 1.5 db at those frequencies, which is when I switched to burning it in without the DAC (so no EQ). Hoping to be able to make due without any EQ, I decided to get my ears acclimated to the RS-1 by listening to only the RS-1 for a while. I also switched to some non-vocal jazz music again - Guinea Pig "Kool Kats". 

 This was much less glaring, and the sax, trombone, trumpet, bass, drums and cymbals sounded much better and I could enjoy it with no EQ at all; although the EQ would bring it more in line with the other amps. Switching to Tsuyoshi Yamamoto "Smooth Jazz Festival" 'Somewhere Over the Rainbow' had the saxophone sounding a little edgier than the Predator, Pico or Boa until I applied the EQ again, although I could enjoy it without EQ. Pianos on this Tsuyoshi Yamamoto were not quite as enjoyable without the EQ as the other music. Moving back to some vocals with Shelby Lynn "Just a Little Lovin" (once my ears were acclimated) I found it sounded better with no EQ. But Jack Johnson still sounded a bit edgy. Most Jazz and Classical as well as electronic and new age sounded fine with the RS-1 and bowls driven by the V1, and for those albums that didn't sound their best, using the mild EQ brings them into balance and then it sounds very good with RS-1. 

 A light bulb went off in my head, and I switched the RS-1 back to flats like I tried whn out of the box, and voila - much better! This also helped somewhat with the lower mids coloration that I heard. I definitely prefer using the Grado flat pads with the RS-1 and V1 amp, which reduced ANY need for EQ of the upper mids. At this point the RS-1 became much more enjoyable with the V1, and it was almost up to the level of the D2 Viper and Boa with the RS-1, but not quite. Jack Johnson was now pleasant with no EQ. Even with the flat pads, many classical recordings such as "Handel's Messiah" still retained a good sense of space and ambience, despite the smaller soundstage with the flats. In doing the volume comparisons using RS-1, I found that a volume setting of 11 o'clock on the V1 with Infected Mushroom corresponded to a 1 o'clock in high gain on the stock D2 Viper. 12 o'clock was quite loud and rockin' with the V1 and electronica!

 Switching to the Ultrasone Edition 9, the V1 was back in its element again, and paired well with these headphones. I enjoyed the V1 with the Edition 9 as much as I enjoyed it with the HD600, although I noticed the Pico has more bass with the Edition 9 than the V1, as did the Predator, D2 Viper and Boa. A little experimentation showed me that I can play the V1 louder with the Edition 9 without being over-whealmed with bass (which is easy for me due to my chronic tinnitus, which wasn't helped any by firing a firearm at a charging bear two weeks ago). However one of the advantages that the Edition 9 have over other my headphones is not having to play them loudly to get a good frequency response and liveliness. With Edition 9 and some music like Infected Mushroom "Dancing with the Kadafi" from the B.P. Empire album, I thought the V1 was better than the Pico, but with live jazz and classical music on the Edition 9 I found the Predator and Pico were the best again, followed by the Micro Amp and the two D2 amps. I don't have the loaner 2MOVE to compare, and didn't have time to roll the D2 Viper opamps again. 

 Typically with the Edition 9 and Pico, Viper or Boa the normal listening level is with the volume knob at 10 o'clock in HI gain, and it is at 9:30 with the V1. The Predator HI gain with Edition 9 puts the volume knob at about 9 o'clock! As a point of reference, medium gain on Predator puts the volume at 10 o'clock and low gain puts it at 12 o'clock.

 I do not have my Denon D2000 while they are being re-terminated as balanced 4-pin (with SE adapter), so I tried my 600 ohm AKG K240M that used to be owned by Stevie Wonder (eBay seller bought them from his ex-wife, and he was selling all kinds of stereo equipment and DAT with brail dots on them, and they smell like his hair gel 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ). Anyway, these are quite difficult to drive. Moderate and good volume levels can be obtained at max volume without clipping the V1 (5 o'clock). The V1 can play much louder with the AKG K240M than the stock D2 Viper, which I maxed out in high gain at 5 0'clock and still found the D2 Viper to be about 5-6 db quieter. The D2 Boa was maybe 1-2 db louder than the Viper with these 600 ohm AKG, but it still couldn't attain the higher levels of the V1 when at max volume. The Predator in high gain at 3 o'clock could beat the stock Viper volume and match the Boa in volume, but it would clip at anything past 3 o'clock with the 240M. Only the Pico could exceed the V1 volume levels with these headphones, by at least another 2-3 db! With the Pico and V1, maybe 10% of my music had a high enough input signal to make me back down the volume knob by half an hour from max volume to avoid clipping. And, transparency with the AKG was quite good, possibly even better than with the HD600 which were previously my favorite with this amp! (although the bass is not as strong as the HD600). All the amps were very transparent with the AKG K240M and these are great headphones, but only the Pico and V1 could really do them any justice without resorting to a desktop amp, with the Pico still a clear lead. Wow again, to be in second place with these headphones was a big surprise! 

 Next were IEM. I switched to Klipsh Image X10 IEM which can be a little harder to drive vs my high sensitivity Custom IEM's. The volume for normal listening was 9:30 on the V1, and by 10 o'clock it was moderately loud volumes and higher than I typically listen at. 11 o'clock was louder than I will ever use, and clipping started at 12 o'clock with extremely loud volume levels. I hear no hiss with music paused until I get past 10:30 o'clock, so it isn't likely that I will ever hear hiss between songs when listening to the Image at loud volumes. With analog input and the music paused I don't hear any hiss until 11:30 o'clock (using iRiver H140). The power switch is built into the volume knob, like the Pico and Ibasso D2 amps, but there is less channel imbalance at low volume settings in the V1 vs those other amps - so I can play it very quietly with the Image X10 without problems, like when going to sleep or for background music. The D2 Boa could not play the Image quite as loud, and was clipping in low gain by 2 o'clock. I thought the V1 had good synergy with the Image X10, and was very enjoyable - tight strong bass, warm mids, crisp sparkly highs (using shallow insertion of the Image into ear canals). The lower mids were a little more pronounced with the Image on vocals than I liked, but were acceptable.

 Last ones to try were my Freq Show custom IEM, which are so sensitive that I actually hear music with the V1 volume all the down and just above the power-on setting! I turned up the volume to 10:30 and heard hiss with the music paused, and backed down to 10 o'clock where the hiss went away. I un-paused the music and was blasted out of my skull by the loud music! I will never listen to the Freq Show at 10 o'clock, with 9 to 9:15 o'clock being a normal listening level and 9:30 to 9:45 is fairly loud. Again, I can play them very quietly without a channel imbalance, but not as quietly as I could the less sensitive Image. Still, it was acceptable for low level "go to sleep music" volumes. 

 The sound with the Freq Show was not bad with some music, very good with others, and a big problem with others - this being the fault of the IEM not the amp. Similar to the problems with using my Freq Show with the Meier Headsix or D2 with LM6172 opamp, vocals like Shelby Lynn "Just a Little Lovin" or Diana Krall "Girl in the Other Room" had the lower mids too pronounced and caused my ears to ring and roar. For those of you whom have read my reviews linked in my public profile (about me section), you know that with my ears the Freq Show are very picky about amps, and I almost returned these IEM for a refund. A few other people have reported the Freq causing ringing and roaring in their ears as well, not just me, although it is a very small minority of people. For example, my Headsix (lo gain) is great with Livewires but I didn't like it with my Freq; while Germania loved her Freq Show with her Headsix, so I do think it is "ear" dependent with these IEM. I picked these IEM for the review because they are popular and are the most fickle ones I own in regards to which amp I choose. With the Jack Johnson "Sleep Through the Static" they sounded good, and with non-vocal jazz and classical music I also have no problem with the resonance and ringing, but some (not all) acoustic guitar and piano music would ring in my ears too. 

 Again, THIS IS A PROBLEM WITH MY FREQ SHOW, not the amp - but the V1 amp doesn't help the problem any. This problem being uncommon to other people made me decide that it will not affect it's ranking below. I usually have to use either my Pico or Predator, or D2 Viper with rolled opamps for these IEM, or I have to play them very quietly if I don't have the right amp available. That being said, at very quiet volume levels like 9:00 - 9:15 o'clock then Shelby Lynn or pianos do sound nice with the Freq. My highly sensitive Livewires custom IEM are out in my car and not tested, but they sound good with every amp I have tried so I have no fear using them with the V1.

*NEW AMP RANKING 09/08/2008 - Adding Vivid Technology V1.*

*Here is the ranking - see comments included if you haven't read the entire review:*

*1. RSA Predator* (good bass and soundstage, more body, organic, full. Seems to do well with all my headphones, and not bad with any).
*2. D2 with rolled opamps* (LTC6241HV/LMH6622 sounds like 98% of the Predator with 7 hour battery life. LM6172/THS4032 - balanced, not too forward, sweet/magical Saxophone, almost mesmerizing like Predator. With my IEM I found it sounded best with the LM6172 and THS4032 swapped. This second opamp configuration was good with all my IEM, and not bad with my full size phones, except the RS-1 seem a bit bright and the Proline 2500 lacked fullness in the mids.)
*3. 2MOVE* (sweet mids and saxophone, midbass hmmm, failed the bad mastering diana krall test, great detail and air, too large and heavy)
*3. PICO* (smooth and transparent without coloration, Great DAC, won the bad mastering Diana Krall test, but nothing special with piano and sax like the others, too neutral as an amp - how is that possible, maybe not because there is something around 2Khz that is not right with RS-1. It really seems to shine with my re-cabled Denon D2000, Klipsch Image, Freq Show customs, but doesn't sound bad with anything but my Proline 2500).
*3. Headroom 2006 Micro Stack Portable* (a twin to the Pico's sound but better with piano, too BIG and out of production, with crossfeed mids are richer/warmer but highs rolled off).
*4. D2 Boa* (Sonic signature slightly warmer than the Pico, and between the D2 Viper with LM6172 in the main amp (warmer) vs THS4032 in the main amp and LM6172 in the ground (cooler). Timbre and tone was good, and mids were slightly forward and rich, and highs had slightly less extension than the D2 Viper, Pico and Predator (in that order). The sense of space with live performances was superior with the D2 Viper, Pico and Predator (in that order), and LESS with the Boa at 300 hours of burn-in. However, the Boa did open up and gain more air and ambience on the level of the other top ranked amps by 575 hours of burn-in. Listening to Diana Krall "Girl in the Other Room" (Temptation and other songs) seemed to indicate more of a low mids hump than the other amps, which also caused problems with Pianos and realism on that CD. The problems reproducing this particular CD remained after 575 hours of burn-in, however with other CD's like Jazz at the Pawnshop, Handel Messiah and Tsuyoshi Yamamoto the D2 Boa demonstrated improved transparency and realism with the extra burn-in. And with other music it seems the bass extension is slightly less than the others in the top ranks, but by 575 hours of burn-in (with my RS-1) the 16Hz audio tones on Binks Audio Test CD were clearly audible, and the volume of the 20Hz tone caught me by surprise, while 25Hz was a little disorienting!
*5. D1 with rolled opamps* (AD797 main/LM6643 buffer/LT6234 DAC - powerful, punchy, energetic, alive - not as bright as AD743/6643/6241. The D2 Boa moved up a little with more burn-in, but it wasn't quite good enough to rise up to a 3rd place tie. So the modded D1 and everything else had to move down a slot. The D1 via USB isn't as good as via optical, which is why it is not tied with the D2 Boa after the Boa improved with extended burn-in. With optical input would beat the Boa easily. 
*6. Vivid Technology V1* (very good synergy with HD600 and AKG K240M 600 ohm, nice and fun with Edition 9 and Klipsch Image X10, acceptable with RS-1 IF switching to flats but bowls are not recommended, unacceptable with my Freq Show but not the amp's fault. DAC with slightly more micro-detal than stock D1 via USB or Headstage Lyrix, slightly less than either D2 Viper/Boa or the other amps. The most forward of all the amps. Can be near 3rd or 4th place with HD600 and 2nd with K240M, but 9th place with Grado RS-1 and bowls.)
*6. D2 stock* - tied (thin in the middle, neutral with good bass - it was sound signature and power but not level of detail that held it back with the stock opamps.) Sounds good with Freq Show and most of my IEM, fairly good with HD600 and Edition 9 but lacks power, not bad with RS-1 but can't properly drive AKG K240M 600 ohm. Sounds better with re-cabled modded ATH-AD900 than the Boa or V1.
*7. Lyrix* (good frequency balance, DAC lacking details and air vs the others, but the amp is great with analog input.)
*8. D1 stock opamps* (put AD823/NE5532/AD8616 back in right before I shipped it back for the 2-3db channel imbalance, too edgy and bright and distant. Very close to 7th as a DAC/Amp because the DAC is so good it makes up for the frequency response issues. Clearly 8th if only using analog input. NOTE - my V1 opamps were from the initial run, and iBasso updated the opamps to V2 in November 07 to make it better than Lyrix.)


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## HeadphoneAddict

That's kinda depressing - no comments about the latest review eh? Does this mean my job is done?


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## evilmerlin

We need some time to digest it Larry..hahahahaha, thats very long post!


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## Skylab

I for one was very impressed


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## jbr

Larry, I was TERRIBLY impressed! You've got to find another hobby. This one is eating up all of your time, and we are grateful!

 What a guy!
 david


----------



## Orcin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's kinda depressing - no comments about the latest review eh? Does this mean my job is done?_

 



 I am in awe of your entire body of work. This latest post is no less spectacular than the rest, and it is a great read. Your impressions are very detailed, and it makes understanding the differences between these amps quite easy. Also, I think your impressions are quite realistic and not overblown.

 But, no you are not done. Get back to work!


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## Citizen86

I was considering that Vivid Tech dac/amp a while ago, but there was a big lack of reviews out so I decided against it.

 But now I have a pretty good idea of it! Seems like a great deal... wonder how it would pair with my KSC75's, haha... I need some better headphones as well.

 Can you let us know how it pairs with your D2000's? I may consider those in the future as my main pair of headphones.


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## kostalex

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's kinda depressing - no comments about the latest review eh? Does this mean my job is done?_

 

In no event! You just opened a new door to head-fi world for some people on budget with your Vivid review. Now I may recommend affordable amp for 3 (at least) of my friends, who can not pay big ca$h for USB/DAC. You also discovered modded Viper for me before, which is surprisingly excellent amp.

 Thank you, man! Please, continue.


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## boodi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's kinda depressing - no comments about the latest review eh? Does this mean my job is done?_

 






 thanks as always 
 we _always _read your portable review


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## boodi

still waiting for a Viper though


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## rhw

Larry, thanks for all the reviews
 very informative and involving
 great job
 kudos
 ***
 **
 *


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## HeadphoneAddict

Thanks gang! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 I am doing more burn-in of the V1 in the hopes that those upper mids and lower mids will become a little more neutral (we're talking like only 1 or 1.5 db of EQ that might be able to be burned-out in a couple of spots). Last night, in trying it with my Germania Frankenstein creation of heavily modified and re-cabled ATH-AD900 I was stunned by the impact and control with Infected Mushroom, and the space and detail with classical music; but I was a little put off by the low mids prominence with Thomas Mark Benoit "Cave Creek" acoustic guitar. 

 So it's still all about amp/phone synergy and while the V1 may have some issues with RS-1, Freq Show or ATH-A900 it is an impressive little amp with HD600, Edition 9 and AKG K240M 600 ohm and Klipsch Image X10. So, look at what headphones and amps you will be combining and "choose wisely my son".

 I will also be trying it with my iMod to see how it sounds without the DAC...


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## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Citizen86* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I was considering that Vivid Tech dac/amp a while ago, but there was a big lack of reviews out so I decided against it.

 But now I have a pretty good idea of it! Seems like a great deal... wonder how it would pair with my KSC75's, haha... I need some better headphones as well.

 Can you let us know how it pairs with your D2000's? I may consider those in the future as my main pair of headphones._

 

I tend to looks for amps that do well with Grados when looking for an amp for my KSC75 or KSC35, although a P>S adapter meant for Ety ER4 might change that up a little. I keep meaning to buy one.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kostalex* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_In no event! You just opened a new door to head-fi world for some people on budget with your Vivid review. Now I may recommend affordable amp for 3 (at least) of my friends, who can not pay big ca$h for USB/DAC. You also discovered modded Viper for me before, which is surprisingly excellent amp.

 Thank you, man! Please, continue._

 

Well, I did pre-order the Viper back in January when I sent my P2 back for the second time with charging woes, so that helped.


----------



## Citizen86

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I tend to looks for amps that do well with Grados when looking for an amp for my KSC75 or KSC35, although a P>S adapter meant for Ety ER4 might change that up a little. I keep meaning to buy one._

 

Yep I agree, so you testing with RS-1's and MS-1's that did not synergize well may be a deterrent for me. I wonder if the amp just mostly does better with high-ohm headphones?


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Citizen86* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yep I agree, so you testing with RS-1's and MS-1's that did not synergize well may be a deterrent for me. I wonder if the amp just mostly does better with high-ohm headphones?_

 

No, because my Edition 9 are either 30 or 40 ohm and sound fine with it, and the Image are not high impedance (but not super low either) and it drives them well.

 I will try the V1 with my KSC75/35 tonight and report back.


----------



## Citizen86

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I will try the V1 with my KSC75/35 tonight and report back._

 

Awesome, thanks!


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Citizen86* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I was considering that Vivid Tech dac/amp a while ago, but there was a big lack of reviews out so I decided against it.

 But now I have a pretty good idea of it! Seems like a great deal... wonder how it would pair with my KSC75's, haha... I need some better headphones as well.

 Can you let us know how it pairs with your D2000's? I may consider those in the future as my main pair of headphones._

 

Well, I tried the Vivid Tech V1 with the KSC35 in a $1.99 headband, and with the KSC35 with the stock ear clips and in the head band. I want to preface this by saying I much prefer the KSC35 in a headband, maybe as much as I like my Alessandro MS-1, and certainly better than iGrado/SR-60/PX100. I feel the KSC75 are usually not as refined sounding as the KSC35, but when using the KSC75 they do sound better (with more bass) when in a headband than in the ear clips.

 Nevertheless, the KSC35/75 both sound fine in all the configurations when played with the V1 amp. I tried it with all the songs I have mentioned in my review, plus about 20 different rock songs. I pulled out the Headstage Lyrix Pro (not the "total" model) to compare to, and 2/3 of the time I preferred the V1. There was some classical and jazz where the Lyrix was a little more transparent, but with rock and vocals the upper mids seemed sucked out on the Lyrix rather than boosted with the V1. My torture test is Diana Krall "Girl in the Other Room" which is not a good mastering, and the V1/Koss combo worked better for me.

 So, the V1 does better with the Koss KSC35/75 than it did with MS-1 (comfys) or RS-1 (bowls).

 PS: I wont get the D2000 back from APureSound for another 2 weeks, while having the 1/4" plug replaced with a 4-pin XLR.


----------



## Citizen86

Great impressions, thanks! I may consider the V1 a little later.


----------



## kostalex

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So, the V1 does better with the Koss KSC35/75 than it did with MS-1 (comfys) or RS-1 (bowls)._

 

Does it also mean that you place KSCs higher than MS-1/RS-1 in terms of general SQ?


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kostalex* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Does it also mean that you place KSCs higher than MS-1/RS-1 in terms of general SQ? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

No. I'm saying that on the songs where I hear the glare or etch with RS-1 and bowls that the KSC are less irritating. In this particular case I'd put the RS-1 with flats on top, KSC35 second, and KSC75 Tied with MS-1. Most of the time I'd put the MS-1 above the KSC75 and on par with the KSC35.


----------



## kostalex

MS-1 on par with KSC-35? Are both cans stock or modded?


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kostalex* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_MS-1 on par with KSC-35? Are both cans stock or modded?_

 

Stock. My older pair of KSC35 sound just a little better than the newer pair, but Blutarsky has heard mine and will agree with me. Ask him.


----------



## Pushifer

I'm in a real mind debate. I can't choose between 2move and Ibasso D2. I will use the dac since the sound of my laptop sucks real hard and sometimes at collage i use computers without a soundcard.

 I really like the D2 battery system, but will i be able to change it when it starts to fail ? Or the rechargeable 9v battery in 2Move will make the amp last for longer ?


----------



## mrarroyo

Pushifer, where are you located. If in the EU go for the 2Move, if in Asia go for the D2 or the newer D3. If in the USA either, 'cause if you need a repair ship it overseas you will.

 What I am trying to say that both of these units are very nice, although I prefer the sound out of the D2. If you plan on rolling op-amps to get different sounds then by all means get the iBasso. If you have an issue w/ size then by all means get the iBasso. From a battery replacement perspective the 2Move is the easier one.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mrarroyo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Pushifer, where are you located. If in the EU go for the 2Move, if in Asia go for the D2 or the newer D3. If in the USA either, 'cause if you need a repair ship it overseas you will.

 What I am trying to say that both of these units are very nice, although I prefer the sound out of the D2. If you plan on rolling op-amps to get different sounds then by all means get the iBasso. If you have an issue w/ size then by all means get the iBasso. From a battery replacement perspective the 2Move is the easier one._

 

The D2 Boa opamps can only be rolled if you can solder SOIC opamp chips. As you may know, the D2 Viper has the socketed opamps but was a limited 100 amp run, so they are not easy to find. 

 Otherwise I agree with everything said above - there are other considerations than just the sound. I would pick the D2 Viper as the most flexible of the two that he asked about, and it can sound better than a 2MOVE with the right opamps. But the 2MOVE sounds better than the stock D2 Viper or D2 Boa. 

 So if the Viper is not available and a larger size doesn't matter, and a $80-100 higher price tag doesn't matter, and the buyer doesn't need a re-chargeable battery, and only sound quality and good power output matter > then the 2MOVE is a better choice. The D2 Boa is smaller, less expensive, more convenient and will sound like 90-95% of the 2MOVE; but with less power for headphones like HD650 or K701 (don't even think about driving K240M 600 ohm). The Boa is still a decent choice for Grados, Ultrasone and Denon, as well as most in ear monitors and earphones.


----------



## Pushifer

I'm from Portugal -> EU so i guess that the 2Move will end up being less expensive for me. i will have to pay more then 20 % for vat and other related stuff.

 i have one pair of HD555 and SR225 on the way. Today i got a cowon d2 player and i was amazed with the sound of it. When i had the HD555 connected to the ipod they sounded so flat. I'm afraid the same will happen to the sr225. 

 Since money is no problem should i get a amp ?


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

The SR-225 without an amp will sound better than the HD555 without an amp. I would first try them with the new D2, and then decide if you need an amp.


----------



## mrarroyo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The D2 Boa opamps can only be rolled if you can solder SOIC opamp chips. As you may know, the D2 Viper has the socketed opamps but was a limited 100 amp run, so they are not easy to find. 

 ...._

 

I meant the D2 Viper, which w/ patience can be found in the for sale forum. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I have one and IMO it is a must have. Why? op-amp rolling capability at a superb price. Just my opinion of course.


----------



## Pushifer

Can we wait on a D3 review ?


----------



## Infoseeker

Are you going to get your Lyrix Total Pro back; because I'm interested in opamp rolling on it. (I have one with an adapter in it for socketing opamps).


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pushifer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Can we wait on a D3 review ?_

 

If mrarroyo (psttt!) is serious about loaning me one at the end the month then maybe. Or, just follow his comments and Jamato8's comments in the HIFlight thread about the D3 and P2 - it seems to be universally praised. I'm getting more and more fatigued with health issues, and I will do one if it is convenient.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Infoseeker* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Are you going to get your Lyrix Total Pro back; because I'm interested in opamp rolling on it. (I have one with an adapter in it for socketing opamps)._

 

Not likely - head-fi user thread bought it, so maybe he'll agree to do some rolling or a review. I had several headstage/penguinamp amps that duplicated function and sound and I had to thin the herd to a single Lyrix Pro with their USB DAC cable. I still have a total of 10 portable amps, and may increase that to 11 if I get a D3 later on, but I simply still have too many.


----------



## donunus

Larry,
 I never caught your impressions of the 2moves dac. Is it comparable to the microdac for much less money? In other words, i am asking whether i should get the microdac to pair with my gilmore lite with dps for my hd600s and whatever other future cans I get or will getting the 2move sound just as good as a glite/microdac combo 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The 2move will be much more convenient since i will be able to use it when I bring my laptop around town. Now, is it gonna be a significant downgrade not worth the added convenience if I listen at home most of the time?


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *donunus* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Larry,
 I never caught your impressions of the 2moves dac. Is it comparable to the microdac for much less money? In other words, i am asking whether i should get the microdac to pair with my gilmore lite with dps for my hd600s and whatever other future cans I get or will getting the 2move sound just as good as a glite/microdac combo 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 The 2move will be much more convenient since i will be able to use it when I bring my laptop around town. Now, is it gonna be a significant downgrade not worth the added convenience if I listen at home most of the time?_

 


 The 2MOVE is a fairly forward and rich sounding amp that is not quite as detailed and spacious as the Pico or Micro DAC, so it wouldn't be my first choice as DAC Pre-amp. But you could probably get away with it on a Gilmore Lite or other neutral and transparent amp. The Pico or D2 Viper/Boa would make more sense as a DAC Pre-amp for a home amp that can do double duty to drive headphones when going portable.


----------



## donunus

I think I should just get the microdac then since i'll also be able to use it with my dvd players toslink or coax out at the same time a computer dac 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I was planning on getting hd25s so those unamped out of the laptop or ipod should be fine. If not, a headroom bithead is only $150 these days and should be fine for my portable usage. I really like the bitheads convenience of not having to use batteries too


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *donunus* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think I should just get the microdac then since i'll also be able to use it with my dvd players toslink or coax out at the same time a computer dac 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I was planning on getting hd25s so those unamped out of the laptop or ipod should be fine. If not, a headroom bithead is only $150 these days and should be fine for my portable usage. I really like the bitheads convenience of not having to use batteries too_

 

The only reason I left the Micro DAC out of my recommendation was your desire to have something to listen to out of your laptop when you are out and about. It would be my 1st choice as well, for the versatility of inputs and "BEST BANG FOR THE BUCK". And I really felt my 2006 Micro Stack sounded as good as my Pico when used with USB input, yet was slightly better via optical (but I used Macbook optical which reportedly isn't as good or as "hitter-free" as optical out of a CD or DVD player, so expect even more improvements used that way).

 I need to ask Headroom what kind of adapter I need to plug Coax into the MicroDAC, because I don't remember getting an adapter and my portable Akai DVD uses Coax digital out.

 I'll tell you what else sounds very good as a budget DAC, but you must use a 24v Sigma 11 PSU or a battery or it will be inferior to the Micro DAC - that is the Super Pro DAC707 for $115. However it comes with a cheap 24v power brick (mine says Kodak on it) and the DAC gets very hot with the stock power unit and doesn't sound nearly as good with the stock power. They actually recommend battery power and since it runs on 12-24v they include a power cable that you can hook to a car battery. If you cannot get an upgraded PSU for it, don't bother and just get the Micro DAC.

 I felt the DAC707 was not quite as good as my old iBasso D1 (which is a little below the Micro DAC) until I bought a 24v Sigma 11 for my Travagans Red and decided to try it on the DAC707. The upgraded power supply improved the signal to noise ratio and dynamics, and gave the DAC a more refined sound and better extension, so that it sounded almost the equal of the Micro DAC. Last night Sherwood came over to my house and we had a Stax party and used the DAC707/Sigma11 optical to Macbook and Pico via USB as our sources, and they were basically near the same level of performance when used with Woo GES and HE60. We thought we could hear the Pico was better, but with our eyes closed neither of us could correctly guess which one we were listening to. diykits


----------



## donunus

hmm, don't want anything inconvenient. I want a no fuss design that should work correctly right out of the box. Not in the mood for any jerry rigged items right now hehehe. The microdac it is! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 You've been steering me to that direction for a while now actually, just wanted to bother you one more time in case you've heard any new good usb dacs lately.


----------



## Carter54

Nice Review! It was very helpful I am looking to pick up my first portable amp and between this review and Skylab's its like one stop shopping thanks!

 Any thing I should know about the Lyrix before picking one up? There are a couple used in the FS thread so I thought I might try one.


----------



## brandnewgame

If I lived in the USA I'd buy the Predator in a heartbeat, but the shipping and customs really put me off. Since I've got a local second hand IBasso D2 on the way I'm more tempted by DECWARE's Zen Head for some reason. Probably because it gets better reviews than the supremely expensive iQube..


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *donunus* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_hmm, don't want anything inconvenient. I want a no fuss design that should work correctly right out of the box. Not in the mood for any jerry rigged items right now hehehe. The microdac it is! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 You've been steering me to that direction for a while now actually, just wanted to bother you one more time in case you've heard any new good usb dacs lately._

 

Well, rumor has it the iBasso D3 with DAC line out is a great choice to feed your desktop amp, and still have a portable amp built-in for traveling around. It is supposed to be very neutral and uncolored and transparent and detailed.

 I would bet there will eventually be a Pico DAC only (without the amp section), but the current Pico works quite well as a DAC/pre-amp to feed a desktop amp and you can still use it portable to drive headphones. Alas, no optical input.

 My last post talked about the Micro DAC in past tense, but I meant that I did my comparison in the past - I still have and enjoy the Micro DAC in my bedside rig.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Carter54* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Nice Review! It was very helpful I am looking to pick up my first portable amp and between this review and Skylab's its like one stop shopping thanks!

 Any thing I should know about the Lyrix before picking one up? There are a couple used in the FS thread so I thought I might try one._

 

The Lyrix Pro Total has a little bigger soundstage from back on the third row in the audience - it has 4-channel technology with socketed AD8397 main/LM6172 in the ground channel, and upgraded caps. 

 The Lyrix Pro (non-total) is a little more forward on the first row, and more similar in sound to the Meier Headsix or 2MOVE; and it doesn't have the 4-channel technology and uses a TI railsplitter in the ground channel and opamps are soldered. 

 There apparently is a 3rd model that uses the 4-channel technology and upgraded caps, but the opamps are no longer socketed like in the Total. It sounds like the total I am told, but I haven't heard that one.

 Any of them should be good, depending on your needs.


----------



## Carter54

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The Lyrix Pro Total has a little bigger soundstage from back on the third row in the audience - it has 4-channel technology with socketed AD8397 main/LM6172 in the ground channel, and upgraded caps. 

 The Lyrix Pro (non-total) is a little more forward on the first row, and more similar in sound to the Meier Headsix or 2MOVE; and it doesn't have the 4-channel technology and uses a TI railsplitter in the ground channel and opamps are soldered. 

 There apparently is a 3rd model that uses the 4-channel technology and upgraded caps, but the opamps are no longer socketed like in the Total. It sounds like the total I am told, but I haven't heard that one.

 Any of them should be good, depending on your needs._

 

thanks I am just looking for a small portable unit to power my Denon D1001 at the Office and I want it to be low cost since its the office and things can walk away.

 The USB dac is a plus and so is the different power options which means I could use it as a portable and bypass my laptops crappy sound card.

 Thanks for the quick reply.


----------



## donunus

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well, rumor has it the iBasso D3 with DAC line out is a great choice to feed your desktop amp, and still have a portable amp built-in for traveling around. It is supposed to be very neutral and uncolored and transparent and detailed._

 

I'll check that out too


----------



## donunus

oooh check this out. Wonder how this compares with the headroom Cambridge - Dac Majic - Digital to Analog Converter-Audio Advisor


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *donunus* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_oooh check this out. Wonder how this compares with the headroom Cambridge - Dac Majic - Digital to Analog Converter-Audio Advisor_

 

Dunno about that one - this thread is for portable USB DAC amps. There are some other threads about the Dac Majic that you can visit. I've been somewhat intrigued myself.


----------



## donunus

this works just like the microdac though. I don't think the new microdacs are portable any longer. They need ac current now (no more battery powered model I think).


----------



## donunus

Anyway, I think I'll buy these blind and stop posting about it in the portable section


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *donunus* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_this works just like the microdac though. I don't think the new microdacs are portable any longer. They need ac current now (no more battery powered model I think)._

 

Okay, well then you have to get the 2006 version so this stays on topic.


----------



## vagarach

Any chance on adding the Hotaudio HotUSB1? http://www.hotaudio.com/

 Completely barebones, bus powered, PCM2705 DAC. Might compare well with the Vividaudio!


----------



## pdupiano

Hi Larry, 
 Any chance of adding the Shek H1 into the mix? Sigtone

 I got a chance to audition it and my initial impression is that it sounds better than the stock Boa D2. 

 Thanks,
 Paul


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

I'm open to trying new portable USB dac amps, but I need a little time to rest first. Then I will contact some manufacturers about a review sample.


----------



## dd051

Hah, are you ready to relax for a bit Larry


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Well, the D3 will be here next week (ships monday) and then I need to do 300+ hours of burn-in (Viper needed 300 although the Boa needed 600). 

 I still want to stress that any of the top 5 DAC/amps in my review would make most people happy. While the sound is a little different between the amps, the top tier amps are so close together in sound quality that my review is more about preferences than performance (Predator, Pico, 2MOVE, iBasso and Headroom).

 The V1 is the pickiest amp out of them all, because it's rank changes the most with a change to another headphone due to different synergies - so in the review I was sure to mention which phones have good synergy with V1 and which ones don't. I still can't get over how much I like the HD600 with it.


----------



## mudbone

Larry, I have a predator, a USB, and a lap top. Tried all three USB ports, predator on USB, but no music. Any suggestions? Thanks Pete.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mudbone* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Larry, I have a predator, a USB, and a lap top. Tried all three USB ports, predator on USB, but no music. Any suggestions? Thanks Pete._

 

You need to find your sound control panel and change the source from internal soundcard to USB DAC.


----------



## PlasticChicken

my d2 viper started to make some unwanted noise recently. I even heard a random radio station play, and it wasnt even plugged in to any source. I also rolled my opamps to LTC6241HV/LMH6622 recently but havent had any problems til now. It makes LOTS of noise when its nor connected to the power adapter. The sound is hard to describe, its kinda like a low radio static with some high pitched thing going on. The noise seems to be loudest when the volume is at its lowest setting. 

 This happens regardless if im using the DAC or not.

 Another strange thing is, there is no noise/less noise when I'm playing music with the top off.

 OH, i hear the radio when i also slightly tap the LMH6622, pretty funny if you ask me.


----------



## bonkon

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PlasticChicken* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I even heard a random radio station play, and it wasnt even plugged in to any source._

 

For real? I don't think your amp is the problem. Maybe you have a ghost wandering in your house that finds the D2 so good he plugged his ethereal radio source.


----------



## dap_pad

Your D2 is acting as an antenna, this happens sometimes with my speakers LOL 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 As long you have proper grounding, it should go away.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

The only time I get interference with my D2 Viper is from my iPhone, while the Boa is a little more resistant to the noise from the iPhone it can still happen.

 NOW, the big news. My D3 arrived, and I tried it out of my iMod with Vcap dock and Denon D2000 using 5 Energizer AAA Alkaline batteries, and it sounds great. I swapped over to my D2 Viper with LM4562 main/LM6172 ground which I have been using that way since I killed my LTC6241HV a month ago, and compared them. With about 10 minutes of ear time, going back and forth, the unburned-in D3 sounds almost IDENTICAL to my D2 Viper with more than 1000 hours on it. Big open wide soundstage and very detailed and smooth. Wow, it sounds nice. None of this D2 Viper has muddy bass till 200 hours, or D2 Boa has less ambience till 600 hours that needs burn-in. 

 I'd almost suspect they burned it in for me knowing it was for a review but they didn't have enough time to do that, plus they told me it needed 300 hours - and said if my Boa really needed 600 hours for me then I should do 600 on the D3 too.

 I'm gonna go ahead and chew through a few sets of AAA batteries and burn it in on my Macbook for a few hundred hours, and then review it when I am sure it is not changing for the last 100 hours. Right now I am very pleased (remember, only 10 minutes of ear time).


----------



## nhat_thanh

Great, Larry! Can't wait to see your D3 review and comparison with other amps 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I just only got about 60 hours on it so far, I'm really satisfied with D3 right now


----------



## inF

Corda 2Move vs. D3


----------



## K3cT

Very nice, HeadphoneAddict. I can't wait for your full impression with the D2000!


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *inF* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Corda 2Move vs. D3 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I would have to borrow Skylab's 2MOVE again for that. Sorry.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *K3cT* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Very nice, HeadphoneAddict. I can't wait for your full impression with the D2000! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

I can say right now at 62 hours of burn-in that the D3 is fantastic with my APS V2 cabled D2000 - those are the headphones I am burning in the amp with, and they are a great match.

 I'm still not going to do comparisons and review till it is done burning in, but I don't imagine this synergy is going to get worse with burn-in.


----------



## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I would have to borrow Skylab's 2MOVE again for that. Sorry._

 

You would be welcome to do this anytime, just PM me.

 Since I had another head-fier "borrow" an amp from me and not return it (!!), I no longer loan out my gear, but in your case Larry I would make an exception no problem.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Thanks, I'll keep that in mind! Likewise, if you need to borrow an iBasso "flavor of the month" for review, let me know.


----------



## inF

So, when do you exchange?


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Dunno - we can't review everything everywhere...


----------



## slwiser

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Dunno - we can't review everything everywhere..._

 

You have spoiled us so yes you must.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

I got over 123 hours on Energizer AAA, still going strong when I left to pickup kids from school but dying and distorted by the time I got home at 124.5 hours I threw those out and switched to new Rayovac rechargables that turns out were too weak and amp wouldn't turn on. So I'm charging them and can continue burn-in when I return home at 5:30 (assuming charging is done).


----------



## plumpcheek

@HeadphoneAddict Could you review P3 also? I currently owned a D2 Boa and already buy a P3 (plan to make P3 as an amp for D2 tho). So what do you think about this combo? Should I sell D2 and go for D3? Thanks in advance .


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *plumpcheek* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_@HeadphoneAddict Could you review P3 also? I currently owned a D2 Boa and already buy a P3 (plan to make P3 as an amp for D2 tho). So what do you think about this combo? Should I sell D2 and go for D3? Thanks in advance ._

 

I try to review stuff I am interested in, and I have no interest in the P3. But there is already a good thread by HiFlight on the P3 and he hasn't found any opamps to install that make it sound better than the D3 yet.

 All I can say about the D3 at this early stage in the game is that out of the box it sounded as good as my D2 with LM4562/LM6172 opamps, and it is very open and transparent and detailed and powerful. I have not done any comparisons since the first day, until burn-in is complete at the recommended 300 hours; but it didn't have any glaring faults that I felt needed to be "burned-out". I have listened to it every day and like it very much. I can't say whether you should sell the D2 Boa, other than to say it is a good amp and if makes you happy then keep it.


----------



## jma790

Hi Headphoneaddict,
 I am considering about selling my 2Move to buy a D3; but I was wondering if the upgrade would be worth in terms of sound? I am really interested in the soundstage. Also, do you know if the D3 would go well with the Triple.fi's and the Yuin OK1's?
 And how does the D3 compares to your rolled D2? Wich one has better soundstage and SQ? wich one would be better for the mentioned headphones?
 Thanks in advance!


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jma790* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi Headphoneaddict,
 I am considering about selling my 2Move to buy a D3; but I was wondering if the upgrade would be worth in terms of sound? I am really interested in the soundstage. Also, do you know if the D3 would go well with the Triple.fi's and the Yuin OK1's?
 And how does the D3 compares to your rolled D2? Wich one has better soundstage and SQ? wich one would be better for the mentioned headphones?
 Thanks in advance!_

 

I am working on my review now - hope to have it posted by Halloween.


----------



## Alai

Muchos dolares?!?!?


----------



## nocturnalsheet

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am working on my review now - hope to have it posted by Halloween._

 

i am eagerly awaiting for your reivew


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

I have written up the part where I listened to my APS re-cabled RS-1 and D2000 with the D3 Python, D2 Boa, Pico and Vivid V1 using those two headphones and a large selection of music. 

 I still have to listen to the HD600, Edition 9, AKG K240M, Livewires and Klipsch Image, and have to compare the D3 to my Predator and D2 Viper once their batteries are charged. 

 I do not need to compare to the Micro Stack or Headstage again, since it is clearly above the level of the Headstage; and whatever my findings are for the Pico also goes for the Micro Stack since they were so close. I also can't compare to the 2MOVE because that was a loaner I got 6 months ago and returned after a few days. And I traded the iBasso D1 this summer for an SRD-7 Pro transformer for my stats, so I can't compare that either.


----------



## tomjtx

Larry, you are slipping. Where is the D3 / Corvette comparo?


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tomjtx* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Larry, you are slipping. Where is the D3 / Corvette comparo?_

 

That's next week...


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

I received the iBasso D3 Python review sample on 10/15 and started the burn-in right away, to reach 300 hours and do my review. I have used some popular headphones and the top 4 phones all have APureSound cable on them, including Grado RS-1, Denon AH-D2000, Sennheiser HD600 (silver mesh) and Ultrasone Edition 9. I also tested with Livewires custom IEM, and Klipsch Image X10 IEM. It sounded fantastic with everything, even right out of the box. Without any burn-in it sounded as good as my 1500+ hour D2 Viper with LM4562 opamp in the main socket and LM6172 in the ground. 

 I used 5xAAA Energizer batteries in the D3 and I got 123 hours out of the batteries before they became too weak to play loud without distortion today. The next set last 113 hours. The third set was Rayovac Hybrid NiMH long lasting re-chargeables which went over 96 hours on a charge (it was still running strong at 96 hours at 2am even though the LED had become dim, and it was dead at 10am when I got up). During burn-in I used my Denon D2000 with a pillow between the ear cups and listened intermittently each day, without a lot of changes during that time. I just finished charging the batteries, and with 332 hours on the D3 I am starting my review (10/29/08). 

 My first listening had been with Denon D2000 and this was the first time to try the Grado RS-1 with bowls, so I started there. I had previously compared the D3 Python out of the box vs my D2 Viper (see above) and felt I could not tell which was which with my eyes closed, so this time I started my comparison vs the D2 Boa (while the Viper and Predator are being charged). I put on some Shelby Lynn "Just a Little Lovin" and felt that the D2 Boa sounded nice. After 3-4 tracks on the Shelby Lynn album, I switched to Guinea Pig "Kool Cats", and Tsuyoshi Yamamoto "Smooth Jazz Festival", Jazz at the Pawnshop, Handel "Messiah", Arvo Part "Tabula Rasa", Sibelius (assorted), Infected Mushroom "B.P. Empire", We the Kings "We the Kings", Metro Station "Metro Station", and Jack Johnson "Sleep Through the Static". After that I just randomly picked music from my library that I wanted to hear.

 Switching between the D2 Boa to the D3 Python produced a noticeable change - the soundstage opened up a bit and became bigger, and the highs brightened up a little. The D3 Python seems a little more clear and sparkly than the D2 Boa. The third thing I noticed was the D3 Python's seems a little more solid and focused than the Boa. This not to say the D2 Boa doesn't have treble presence or good bass, just that the D3 Python is better. The next thing I noticed was the D2 Boa at 800 hours has lost a little more of the lower mids hump that it used to have in female vocals - this brought it up to being less colored than before, and closer to being neutral like the D3. If you recall from previously, it took 600 hours for the Boa's soundstage to open up as much as it did, and it was still changing for a long time like the Predator which took 1000 hours - so it is reasonable to me that the D2 Boa sound has further improved with time. On the other hand, the D2 Viper only took 300 hours to fully burn-in, and the D3 Python seems like it needed even less time. Nevertheless, the D3 is an upgrade over the Boa in the areas I mentioned.

 Next was comparing the D3 to the Pico, still with the RS-1. Now if you have read all of my review from the beginning, you will see that while I gave the Predator a slight edge in personal preference, I have always said the Pico was very good and I enjoy it (9.7/10 vs 10/10). I have also posted in another thread that the Pico's sound had become warmer after I put an additional 300-400 hours on it, after Asr had owned it and broken it in already. Most recently I had decided that I now like the Pico as much as my D2 Viper with rolled opamps, and have been planning to move it up to a second place tie. It's still my favorite to use as a USB DAC Pre-amp to feed a full sized amp. So while comparing the D3 Python to the Pico with the Grado RS-1 tonight I thought the Pico was slightly smoother in the upper mids - but in regards to soundstage and air and ambience and micro-detail I think they are on a very similar level, with only the very slightest edge going to the Pico. The upper mids did not cause trouble with the RS-1 and rock music like I had found with the Vivid V1, so it was still enjoyable with bowls or flats won the RS-1. 

 Switching to the Denon D2000 I felt the Pico's advantage in the smoothness of the upper mids went away. I have previously said I really like the Synergy between the Pico and D2000, and I think the D3 has it there in spades too. With the D2000 I can tell that the two amps do sound a little different - the D3 bass was slightly less in quantity than with the Pico (like maybe only 1 db), but maybe it was a little more taught with the D3 Python. Again, the soundstage remained open and airy with good detail; and with both amps and I could place Shelby Lynn and the various instruments on stage - same with other pieces like Jazz at the Pawnshop where the D3/D2000 combo was very transparent with excellent soundstage and instrument placement. Interestingly I was then surprised with some classical music where I found it a little bit too wide, where sometimes I felt the result left a hole in the middle (Sibelius: Finlandia, En Saga, Karelia Suite, Etc.). This didn't occur with the D3 and RS-1 or D3/HD600, or with the Pico and D2000 where I found a more cohesive soundstage from ear to ear with no hole. With Arvo Part "Tabula Rasa" the hole was much smaller in the center of the soundstage but not entirely gone. With Handel: Messiah the hole went away completely with the D2000, just by changing the program material. Since the issue wasn't apparent with the D3/RS-1 or D3/HD600, it is also possible that it's the fault of the D2000 since I haven't done the markl mods and stuffed the earpads to tilt the cans and drivers more. I would again put the D3 and Pico on about the same level with all my other program material, as it was difficult to find any other material that gave a hole in the soundstage with the D2000. One other test I ran was test tones since the D2000 has such excellent sub-bass, and the D3 has solid bass down to 20Hz with the D2000 (and 16Hz is audible).

 Listening with the HD600 the D3 had good synergy and sounded very similar to the Pico again, and it has plenty of power to drive them to high volumes as well. The power output with these 300 ohm cans is very good, and better than the Predator and D2 Boa in terms of sheer clean volume. The power output with HD600 is very similar to the Pico and Vivid V1. I found nothing to complain about with the D3 and HD600, and would be happy to listen to the combo anytime. Female and male vocals are still very good like with the other headphones, and I liked the D3 with all genres out of the HD600. The bass was powerful but detailed, the mids smooth and the highs sparkly, just the way I like it. The D3/HD600 was just as exciting with Infected Mushroom "Dancing with the Kadafi" as with the Pico and V1 in my earlier reviews, and I could achieve the same volume levels with the D3 at 4 o'clock as the Pico at 3 o'clock, but past that either amp would start clipping. With the HD600 the D2 Boa was well behind in volume and punch, with at least 4-5 db less output. There were NO soundstage defects with the HD600, and the soundstage was centered in front of my forehead and running from in front of my head to inside of my head, and width was good as well. Again, this was reminiscent of the Pico soundstage. However, the Pico does still seem be a little clearer in the ambient cues and very slightly more detailed in complex passages. 

 With the Edition 9 I was really impressed with the D3 - it does a good job controlling the bass and defining it like with the D2000, so it doesn't over power the rest of the sound spectrum. It was clean and alive sounding, and very quick and punchy. Soundstage, tone, transparency and frequency balance are all a good match for the Edition 9. Normal listening levels were at 10 o'clock and it could play very loudly at 12 o'clock, reaching the same volume levels that I would achieve with the HD600 maxed out at 4 o'clock! Clipping would not begin until past 2 o'clock with the Ediiton 9, at volume levels much higher than I could ever use, and I could feel my ears and jaw shaking at max clean volumes - thank God for the ear plugs! The Pico still manages to out-power the D3 with Edition 9, by probably a noticeable 2 db louder, even though they could both play to the same volume with HD600. 

 The last ones to try were some IEM. I felt the D3 was very good with my Livewires, SE530 in Custom Shells, Freq Show and Klipsch Image X10. However, I could easily hear that the D3 is picking up some RF interference from NORAD and Cheyenne Mountain that are in my backyard, along all the local radio station towers are up the mountain too! I could actually hear FM stations being picked up by the D3, which made it very difficult to use with IEM and USB. With my iMod or analog input there was no such RF interference, and it only occurred with a USB cable plugged into the back of the D3, even if not connected to a computer. And it was only heard with headphones plugged into the amp when the amp is turned on, but not heard in the DAC line out. I had a similar problem with my Meier HA-1 Mk2 headphone amp, but only with headphones plugged into the low impedance headphone jack, and sure enough this RF improves in the basement like the HA-1 did when I moved it there. I will be taking my amps to a Colorado Head-fi meet Saturday 11/1 in Denver, and will listen again for any RF interference, but I'm pretty sure the fault is Cheyenne Mountain - because of them we had to change all of our garage door frequencies because NORAD was blocking the remote door openers.

 Fortunately it only occurs between 8 o'clock and 9 o'clock on the volume knob, almost like the D3 uses an active volume control. And it gets better in some parts of the house where the radio towers that are on the mountain behind my house don't seem to reach as well. I hadn't noticed it before because I was only using the volume between 9-12 o'clock to listen to music with full size headphones. None of my other amps pick up radio stations, but the D3 Python and D2 Viper are also very susceptible to chattering from my iPhone if it is anywhere near the amps.

*Finally - Ranking, with a caveat:* I want to first clarify a little about some changes my personal tastes and preferences. One big area that is becoming more important to me over time is not just having those rich warm seductive mids for vocals and saxophone or other acoustic instruments, but also having good transparency with larger soundstage and good ambience and space, ALL AT THE SAME TIME. My home amps have spoiled me and I am becoming more demanding in my expectations as well. 

 Summarizing what I was thinking previously - The 2MOVE that I initially ranked slightly above the Pico was very detailed and warm and rich. But it lacked some space and air or ambience vs many of the other amps, creating a more forward intimate setting that I REALLY dug at the time I reviewed it. Some of this soundstage was due to the amp section itself, as feeding it with a better DAC still felt more close and intimate (just not quite as much). I do not have a 2MOVE anymore to compare to the D3 DAC, but I do have most of the other amps that I previously compared the 2MOVE against. Having listened to all of them again (except 2MOVE), I think that at this point I am happier with the Pico than I would have been if I had owned the 2MOVE. As a matter of fact, I haven't used my Meier Headsix in months, which has a similar sound signature and soundstage as the 2MOVE. I have been using the Predator, Pico and D2 Viper the most out of all of them.

 Now, the Predator via DAC was more spacious than 2MOVE, while the Pico would project an even bigger more spacious and airy soundstage above and beyond all the others. The D2 Viper with the first round of rolled opamps (LM6172/THS4032) was in between the Pico and Predator in rank, but closer to the Predator in soundstage - what I considered a good compromise. The whole reason the Pico fell behind the others despite it's audibly superior DAC was the lack of fullness in the lower mids and the way a hard strike on the piano keys would bite my ears. Both of those problems were not audible when using it as a DAC/pre-amp instead of driving headphones - but when I listen with headphones now, those issues have also improved over the months since my initial review (the same ones as back in March).

 However, the old D2 Viper top-pick opamp combo had a problem with sucking down the battery in 7 hours, and with being too forward with many of my IEM, allowing the Pico to pass it up with IEM. So I made changes and currently the D2 Viper has the LM4562/LM6172 in it, which is more clear and open and spacious (plus battery life climbed from 7 hours to 17). I would say it is now closer to the detail and space and ambience of the Pico, and I would put the D3 in that category as well. This is good, because they are also rich and not thin sounding in the mids. Seriously, the Predator, Pico and D3 are just so close that I might be ready to be put out to pasture and give up doing these reviews - but I still put the Predator just slightly ahead in how it conveys the emotion of the music in it's tone, although I like the soundstage and space of the Pico a little more. 

 So, even if the 2MOVE were here today I suspect that I would rank the Predator first, followed closely by a tie for second with Pico, D2 Viper (LM4562/LM6172), and Micro Stack, and I'd have the 2MOVE as a close 3rd. I suspect that all along I should have placed the 2MOVE there because otherwise I would have bought one by now (my 2MOVE loan was way back in April). That leaves me in a quandary as to where to put the D3 Python because while I like it very much, the RF problem makes it difficult for me to place it higher ranked than those in 1st - 3rd place above. And it can't tie with the Pico because the Pico also now has a very slight advantage of smoother upper mids with the RS-1, and slightly more ambient cues and micro-detail in complex passages. 

 At this point, while sounding closer to my second place picks when I can find a quiet spot in my house, I have to say it is tied with 2MOVE in 3rd. Although I'd rather listen to D3 than 2MOVE at this stage of the game, the RF interference wont let me rank it higher. I recognize that the RF is due to my particular location, and it may not affect anyone else out there like it has for me (will find out tomorrow). Such are the hazards of putting together a subjective review like this, when based on their technical merits either none of them are losers and personal preferences can change, or where personal preferences makes one decide to ignore technical faults. It was like Goldilocks saying this bed is too hard, and this one is too soft, but this one is just right. Who am I to say what you "sleep number" should be. I do think I need to be approaching any reviews in the future with a more objective eye (or should I say, ear), as I feel I am losing some of that here.

 Nevertheless, I am now considering parting with the D2 Viper because the D3 sounds just as good, has 7x more battery life, and it also sounds great as a DAC-only when I feed a full size amp (without needing any batteries). While the D2 Viper can be made to sound similar to a Predator with the right opamps, and closer to the Pico with others, the D3 Python splits the difference well enough that it doesn't matter. Despite the nice DAC in the D3, I'm pretty sure right now that the D3 will spend most of it's time replacing the D2 viper as my "iMod amp". The Predator remains paired with my 3G Nano as the combo is pretty wicked sounding for such a small package. And the Pico will continue to be used the most with my Macbook and either powering headphones or used as a DAC/preamp feeding a desktop amp. If it wasn't for the nasty RF problem in my neighborhood caused by the radio towers right behind my house, I'd maybe use the D3 for the macbook instead because of the improved battery life.

 I'll put this review in the first post later, along with my table of ranking - but for now I'm off to bed!

*UPDATE 11/6/08: The RF interference with USB cable plugged in does go away when I get down the hill and away from NORAD and Cheyenne Mountain. So at this point I prefer the D3 over what I recall the 2MOVE sounded like. And, if I had ONLY the D3 as my only portable I would likely not be looking to get a Micro DAC or Pico or Predator to upgrade later, unless money grew on trees or I didn't have a large credit card to pay off.*


----------



## jamato8

Wow, a lot of work there. Great comparisons. I still think though that unless the eneloop are used with the D3 you haven't heard all of it. My all wheel drive 1990 Mitsubishi Eclipse turbo with its new engine will run on regular but there is no question it performs better on super. The eneloops are super unleaded.


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## nocturnalsheet

thanks for the great review.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wow, a lot of work there. Great comparisons. I still think though that unless the eneloop are used with the D3 you haven't heard all of it. My all wheel drive 1990 Mitsubishi Eclipse turbo with its new engine will run on regular but there is no question it performs better on super. The eneloops are super unleaded._

 


 I used low discharge NiMH Rayovac "hybrid", which are similar to endloop i thought. These retain 80% of so of their charge over a few months.


----------



## andychen

Larry, thanks for the great review!

 I had a D2 viper with 4 additional opamps and enjoyed it very much for 3 to 4 months. However, its size bothers me a lot. It's portable, but not pocketable. I have decent desktop rigs in both my home and office. So I only use portable stuff on the go. Then I read your review, saved money and got a pico. I use IMOD and PK1 to A/B pico and D2 viper with (LM6172/THS4032). I never intended to use them with my full-size cans, so I only used PK1. I do find that D2 is a little more warmer than pico and thus pico is a better match to my PK1. I have a recording in which the voice is a little bit recessed, I used that recording every time for evaluation and found pico brought out the voice more than D2 viper and that's what I like. Also, pico can be used a DAC or pre-amp and D2 viper is not very good for that purpose. 

 I find that while opamp rolling is fun and probably cost efficient, it is not very practical, some times I like to switch phones for different types of music and it's impossible for me to open the the case for opamp rolling whenever I switch phones. Like you, if I get more gears in the future, I will pair them up, one amp is specific to one source and earphones.


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## K3cT

The RF interference thing can be very annoying I presume. Nevertheless, with the D3's sound quality and relatively low price I think I'm ready to take the plunge (and the risk?). 

 Thanks once again for the detailed review!


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## mrarroyo

Larry, great review as usual. I also prefer the D3 over the D2 although the differences (w/ various op-amps) is not as huge as some may think. I have just sent the D2 to a friend as a gift.

 I also think that you should revisit the D3 w/ the eneelops, specially if you do w/ the D3 having 500+ hours of burn in. The situation you have w/ the RF interference is not unique to the D3, and although I respect your decision I disagree in you ranking it as low as you did. When you add the cost to the equation there is not doubt IMO that the D3 should be in 1st place. I will acknowledge that I was not that impressed by the Pico when I listened to it.

 Different ears/gear/expectations, or "not everyone loves chocolate". BTW, the best line in your review was:

  Quote:


 ... 10am when I got up ... 
 

I am so jealous!


----------



## Feather225

Thank you for the updated D3 review...I think I am ready to give it a try!!! Ibasso should def pay you for all that you did to the potential buyers ^ ^


----------



## Jaw007

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mrarroyo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Larry, great review as usual. I also prefer the D3 over the D2 although the differences (w/ various op-amps) is not as huge as some may think. I have just sent the D2 to a friend as a gift.

 I also think that you should revisit the D3 w/ the eneelops, specially if you do w/ the D3 having 500+ hours of burn in. The situation you have w/ the RF interference is not unique to the D3, and although I respect your decision I disagree in you ranking it as low as you did. When you add the cost to the equation there is not doubt IMO that the D3 should be in 1st place. I will acknowledge that I was not that impressed by the Pico when I listened to it.

 Different ears/gear/expectations, or "not everyone loves chocolate". BTW, the best line in your review was:



 I am so jealous! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

X2


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mrarroyo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Larry, great review as usual. I also prefer the D3 over the D2 although the differences (w/ various op-amps) is not as huge as some may think. I have just sent the D2 to a friend as a gift.

 I also think that you should revisit the D3 w/ the eneelops, specially if you do w/ the D3 having 500+ hours of burn in. The situation you have w/ the RF interference is not unique to the D3, and although I respect your decision I disagree in you ranking it as low as you did. When you add the cost to the equation there is not doubt IMO that the D3 should be in 1st place. I will acknowledge that I was not that impressed by the Pico when I listened to it.

 Different ears/gear/expectations, or "not everyone loves chocolate". BTW, the best line in your review was:

  Quote:


 ... 10am when I got up ... 
 

I am so jealous! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Based on sound alone, I felt the D3 would be pretty well tied with Pico and D2 Viper with rolled opamps. I just ever so slightly prefer the Predator more, and the 3G nano with Predator gets used 10x as much as my iMod with Viper. 

 I still had to deal with my conscience about the Pico's slightly better DAC and better RF resistance, and rank the Pico above the D3 just for that. And if it wasn't for the RF interference It would have soundly been ranked above the 2MOVE. I tried to make that point in my summary. Previously my ranking was solely based on SQ alone - but I just didn't feel it was right to not consider those small things. 

 And, I was not that impressed with the Pico when I got it back in March, but the more time I spend with it the more I like it, and it really does seem to have changed it's sound with age (I posted a thread about that a couple of months ago).


----------



## jamato8

The D-303 is a great little portable player. I am glad it has the optical out. Even the onboard headphone out is good but sadly after that Sony let down on the quality of the phone out. 

 Anyway I would like to hear a Pico someday. The Predator is a great portable and fits perfect in a small belt camera holder with my H120 iRiver.


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## energie

Hi Addict, thanks again for the great review.

 I would ask a direct comparison between Ibasso P3 and D3, is there any difference or it is just the DAC?

 thanks


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *energie* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi Addict, thanks again for the great review.

 I would ask a direct comparison between Ibasso P3 and D3, is there any difference or it is just the DAC?

 thanks_

 

Up until yesterday the P3 could not be made to sound better than D3, just similar or different. But now look here: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f105/i...-begin-371427/

 The P3 can use different opamps to tune the sound to your headphones and source. It also uses 6 AAA and should be able to provide more power.


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## jma790

Hi Larry,
 Could you please tell me wich was the combination of opamps that you used to get the Viper to show an even bigger soundstage than the Pico? 
 And Second, could you tell me how do the DAC/Amp sections of the rolled D2 and D3 compare to each other now that the D3 has even more hours on it? Wich one shows better soundstage, space and air?
 Thanks!


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jma790* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi Larry,
 Could you please tell me wich was the combination of opamps that you used to get the Viper to show an even bigger soundstage than the Pico? 
 And Second, could you tell me how do the DAC/Amp sections of the rolled D2 and D3 compare to each other now that the D3 has even more hours on it? Wich one shows better soundstage, space and air?
 Thanks! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

There are several that bring it close to the Pico - can't say it is more. What I am using now is the LM4562 main/LM6172 ground.

 Others that sound good and have a big spacious soundstage are LMH6622 main/THS4032 ground, ISL55002 main/THS4032 ground, THS4032 main/LM6172 ground.

 The D3 is even closer to the Pico and is slightly more spacious than the D2 Viper, although the Viper is not lacking at all in that area and has a bigger soundstage than the Predator, 2MOVE or Boa.


----------



## jma790

Thanks! And as always, a nice entry for the review 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 And if you are parting with your D2, I might be interested on it


----------



## Greeni

Hi HeadphoneAddict

 You described the sound of the HR Micro stack as :

 "The HR Micro Stack via USB reproduced female vocals and saxophones were just ever-so-slightly cooler than I like....Basically, via USB the $598 HR Micro Stack's performance and sound signature were similar enough to the $499 Pico to call it a draw. "

 For a while I owned the HR Total Bithead. For the goods that this little entry level amp deliver, I have a similar observation that it was lacking in warmth and tonality. For this reason, I returned the Bithead and got a 3Move instead. Nothing to complain about for the price, but I just wonder if this is across the board "family sound signature" of HR.

 The HR Ultra Micro amp has just came down to $499. Very tempting. While it does not have an internal DAC, the price now is comparable to the Predator and Pico. While I have little doubt that the Ultra will excel in terms of resolution, detail, space, etc., I just wonder if the slightly cooler sound signature observed with the Micro remains with the Ultras.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Greeni* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi HeadphoneAddict

 You described the sound of the HR Micro stack as :

 "The HR Micro Stack via USB reproduced female vocals and saxophones were just ever-so-slightly cooler than I like....Basically, via USB the $598 HR Micro Stack's performance and sound signature were similar enough to the $499 Pico to call it a draw. "

 For a while I owned the HR Total Bithead. For the goods that this little entry level amp deliver, I have a similar observation that it was lacking in warmth and tonality. For this reason, I returned the Bithead and got a 3Move instead. Nothing to complain about for the price, but I just wonder if this is across the board "family sound signature" of HR.

 The HR Ultra Micro amp has just came down to $499. Very tempting. While it does not have an internal DAC, the price now is comparable to the Predator and Pico. While I have little doubt that the Ultra will excel in terms of resolution, detail, space, etc., I just wonder if the slightly cooler sound signature observed with the Micro remains with the Ultras._

 

I would be curious to know, but with the OPA627 opamps I doubt the Ultra Micro amp sounds the same and expect it would sound very nice. The only reason I included the HR Micro "Stack" (which is the amp and DAC combo) is because it was battery powered and I had not been able to find reviews on it previously. So, I likely wont be buying the $998 Ultra Micro Stack (amp/dac) even though it would be nice to have the DAC as a spare.

 I am not likely to recommend anything that I haven't heard myself. However, having heard the Head-Direct EF1 and Grahm Slee NOVO with Sigma 11 PSU, and both are cheaper than the Ultra Micro Amp, I would be more likely to recommend those desktop amps as best bang for the buck over the Ultra Micro Amp (or over the portables if you don't need portable). 

 I own the EF1 and it beats all my portables for power and versatility (i.e. working well with everything). Meanwhile, at normal volumes the Predator can sound similar the to the EF-1 tube amp, but it shows the stress/strain when the volumes go up with many of these headphones. So, many of these portables in this review can match the sound quality of many desktop amps at more reasonable volumes, but most cannot match the raw power and driver control of the desktop amps (although Pico and V1 are close, with huge power for a portable).


----------



## tspinning

Wow, what a great read- thanks for all the time and work (and fun) you spent while creating this!!

 I am very close to pulling the trigger on the D3 for use with my iPod (office setting with the SR-125's) and home computer w/ my ATH-A900's for music, games, and movies. 

 My question is, I've noticed when at my computer I often end my listening session with the volume at or very close to max with the A900's. Would the D3 provide more headroom in the sense that I can get full sound but not have it pinned at 10? (Or 11 should that be the case!) I've heard from you it's a stellar amp, but am wondering for my specific situation if I'd see noticeable gains- many have said the A900 won't benefit from an amp and as those are quickly becoming my favorite cans I don't want to buy something that won't bring a bigger smile to my face.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

The D3 has no problem driving my A900, Grado MS-1 or RS-1, D2000, Edition 9, Yamaha HP-1 orthos. It can even drive HD600 though not as loudly as the Pico and V1. It struggles a little more with the 600 ohm AKG K240M but is still ranked #3 with those.

 The A900 are easily powered even by my Macbook headphone out and iPhone 3G, but the USB or iPod line out dock's improved sound quality makes the D3 a welcome addition with ipod or laptop.

 ALS0 - THE RF INTERFERENCE WITH D3 WHEN USB CABLE IS ATTACHED DOES GO AWAY WHEN I AM NOT NEAR NORAD AND CHEYENNE MOUNTAIN.


----------



## tspinning

Awesome!!!!!!!!!! Payday tomorrow, I think I might take the plunge~


----------



## Greeni

HeadphoneAddict

 Thanks for the reply. Your detailed review and keen observation are doing a great service to us !!


----------



## 40760

Hi,

 600 ohms is quite a lot to drive actually. I can do with about 2/5 on the volume knob on high gain with my 100 ohm ER4S.


----------



## jma790

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* 
_With the D2 Viper opamps swapped to the THS4032 in the main amp, the Viper has the most air and space to the musical venue, followed by the Pico and then the Predator_

 

 I tought that you were talking about soundstage here...


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jma790* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I tought that you were talking about soundstage here..._

 

I didn't remember that. I'll have to dig up my notes, because I replaced the THS4032 with LM4562 for better battery life a while ago and haven't heard the 4032 in a while. My memory says the THS4032's air and space (ambience cues and hall echos) was increased but if I recall felt like I was closer to the stage than Pico. I tend to think of soundstage as placement and position of instruments and vocals, as well as size of the venue (width depth and height). The pico makes the room bigger, I think.


----------



## Brighten

Larry, how would you rank the Pico dac compared to the D3 (on a 1-10 scale) both as an amp/dac out of your Macbook and as a pre-amp (dac in the D3's case) fed into your desktop amps? And I can't imagine you listening to Metrostation...


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Brighten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Larry, how would you rank the Pico dac compared to the D3 (on a 1-10 scale) both as an amp/dac out of your Macbook and as a pre-amp (dac in the D3's case) fed into your desktop amps? And I can't imagine you listening to Metrostation... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

As far as portables go, let's call the Pico a 9.8 and the D3 a 9.7.

 I also like the Pico as a DAC Pre-amp just a little more than the D3 line out which has less voltage output and slightly less bass with line out than with headphone out.


----------



## Brighten

So the Micro Dac would be like a 9.8-10?


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Brighten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So the Micro Dac would be like a 9.8-10? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I suppose that's how the circular logic would make the Micro Stack get the same score as the Pico, seeing as I said they were a tie. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But the 2006 model portable Micro Stack that I reviewed isn't made anymore, and even Headroom admits the new $600 Microportable with DAC (all in one case) has different DAC chips and doesn't sound quite as good as the 2006 portable Stack (nor 2007 non-portable Micro Stack which is $798 now).

 I hate rating scales, and don't even make me bring a desktop amp into the fight! I mean it!


----------



## Greeni

Larry

 Where did you get the Grahm Slee NOVO with Sigma 11 PSU ? I thought the Sigma 11 PSU has to be separately purchased and installed ?

 I may be hijacking this thread, but do you have any idea how much better the Graham Slee Solo (which is near a "portable") is over the Novo ?


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Greeni* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Larry

 Where did you get the Grahm Slee NOVO with Sigma 11 PSU ? I thought the Sigma 11 PSU has to be separately purchased and installed ?

 I may be hijacking this thread, but do you have any idea how much better the Graham Slee Solo (which is near a "portable") is over the Novo ?_

 

Off topic questions can be asked through PM next time. I already owned the 24v Sigma 11 PSU, which I bought used here on head-fi for my Travagans Red or Super Pro DAC707. It just happened to run the NOVO well too. I know nothing about the Solo.


----------



## Brighten

Haha thanks Larry. This just seems too good to be true with the D3 being such a giant killer and all... but just give it up already and confess to us that your working undercover for the guys at iBasso... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Either that or they knew it was you and they exchanged the guts with a Pico or Predator... 

 Thank you for being so patient with all of us guys and our persistent questioning, you've really spoiled us!


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Nope, not working for iBasso - I've actually been wary about recommending them because of the shipping costs should something become defective, where the buyer has to eat the shipping to send it back to China. 

 But, I guess the money you save on the D3 vs the Pico and Predator can buy you about 10 trips to China, if iBasso pays to send it back to you. I only had to send my P2 back twice (each time within a week of it arriving), because of a faulty design that they corrected. But I never had a problem with the D2 Viper, or D2 Boa or the D3 (I did have to stretch a spring in the D3 battery compartment to make better contact).


----------



## mrarroyo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Greeni* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_... I may be hijacking this thread, but do you have any idea how much better the Graham Slee Solo (which is near a "portable") is over the Novo ?_

 

Having owned both I can say the Solo is the better sounding unit, and it should be at the higher cost. Be advised that Graham has upgraded the unit and in its current version it is know as the Solo SRG. I am dying to get one but no money!


----------



## kiljim

This may be a little off topic, 
 I got the D2 Boa after some research and reading this review, but i'm just wondering if there is a better amp+dac similarly priced (below $200) for desktop usage instead?


----------



## Brighten

You should pm that to Larry


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

I didn't answer because there isn't a desktop DAC/amp for under $200 that sounds as good as most of these portable. 

 The desktop DAC/amp that does sound this good is the Travagans White but it is $290 and 50% over his budget, but it is better than the D2 Boa. I have not directly compared it to all the portables, but it is better than any of the lower cost DAC/amp portables and on at least the same SQ level as the 2MOVE. The $249 Nuforce Icon DAC/amp is a better speaker amp than it is a headphone amp, and the Nuforce headphone amp section is on about the level of the D2 Boa already.


----------



## mrarroyo

For a while Head Direct had the Octavart Amp/Dac on sale for $199 which IMO is a superb sounding unit and it sports an overall punchier sound. I have its predecessor the 01 Amp/Dac. However it has coaxial and optical input but no USB.


----------



## Figlio Perduto

i read your whole review tonight and it's exactly what i've been searching for on HeadFi. thanks HeadphoneAddict. im going to be getting the D2000 pretty soon, with a MacBook as a source. been wondering what to use as an amp, and i will now, pretty confidently be going for the D3 Boa.


----------



## helmerkelps

> D2 with rolled opamps
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## dadozen

I'm almost sure it's a mod made by himself, and not an upgrade made by the manufacturer. Not sure if the opamps came with the stock amp though.


----------



## RAQemUP

The Ibasso D2 Viper has opamp sockets for easy opamp rolling. It was only created in a limited amount. So it came mod-able by default. He just switched out opamps for different ones and therefore its now modded. I love my D2 Viper for the choices though I believe HeadphoneAddict sold his.


----------



## jma790

Yes, I think that he sold his iBasso D2 Viper...


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jma790* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes, I think that he sold his iBasso D2 Viper..._

 

Silly, I sold it to you!


----------



## jma790

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Silly, I sold it to you!_

 







 It was just kidding Larry 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I am loving it, and I still thank you so much for selling it to me


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jma790* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_





 It was just kidding Larry 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I am loving it, and I still thank you so much for selling it to me 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I know you were kidding. You didn't know that I was only kidding about your acting like I didn't know you were kidding.

 I only sold it because you cried real tears that you wanted it so badly. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Besides, the sound was so close to my D3 Python with Rayovac Hybrid NiMH slow discharge batteries that I didn't need it for comparisons in this review any more. And, only 100 of the Viper were made so it's not like people are trying to decide on buying it as a current choice vs all the others.

 I'm thinking about maybe selling the D2 Boa too (someone already has dibs on it so don't ask), but that one sounds sufficiently different that I might still need it to compare other amps to it. Right now I am reviewing the Nuforce Icon Mobile and the D2 Boa is helpful to have as a mid-level USB DAC amp to compare to.


----------



## jma790

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I know you were kidding. You didn't know that I was only kidding about your acting like I didn't know you were kidding._

 

Hah! You don't know that I was kidding by acting like you didn't knew that I was kidding when I acted like you didn't knew that I was only kidding about acting like you didn't knew that I was kidding 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 OMG, my brain...

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I only sold it because you cried real tears that you wanted it so badly. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

 But those were my real tears!! (I sent you a pic and everything) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Don't be so mean with me Larry 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm thinking about maybe selling the D2 Boa too (someone already has dibs on it so don't ask), but that one sounds sufficiently different that I might still need it to compare other amps to it. Right now I am reviewing the Nuforce Icon Mobile and the D2 Boa is helpful to have as a mid-level USB DAC amp to compare to._

 

 Don't worry, I don't want that Boa, I love this Viper 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. Now I see why you love the Predator so much (using the Predator clone opamp combination). It sounds like if it were a really fine amp 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Guess the real one sounds even better.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_But I was really happy when I saw how happy you were with the amp_

 

 Yes! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Thank you so much for selling it to me Larry, you have made me really happy. My PC never sounded that good


----------



## oldschool

Any chance of doing a review of the Practical Devices XM5? It has an updated DAC and all..


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *oldschool* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Any chance of doing a review of the Practical Devices XM5? It has an updated DAC and all.._

 

Maybe, if they were to offer me one to review - otherwise I have no need for it. My latest addition will be the Nuforce Icon Mobile, which I have an interest in because I already own the Nuforce Icon integrated amp to drive my Stax transformer, and the NE-7M iPhone headset. The NE-7M iPhone headset will work as a telephony headset on the Mac or PC when used with the Icon Mobile USB DAC amp, so I can use it with Skyp and iChat to talk and listen. Gammers could also take advantage of that. The amp has almost 120 hours on it towards a 300 hour burn-in, and so far sounds pretty good.


----------



## MaxAmplitude

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *oldschool* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Any chance of doing a review of the Practical Devices XM5? It has an updated DAC and all.._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Maybe, if they were to offer me one to review_

 

No problem... an XM5 will be in your hands this week.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaxAmplitude* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No problem... an XM5 will be in your hands this week._

 

Okay, I'll check your PM soon, and work something out. I didn't see this until it was almost bedtime, as it has been a crazy crazy day today.


----------



## jvlgato

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaxAmplitude* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No problem... an XM5 will be in your hands this week._

 

Wow. Now that's having a rep, my friends! 

 'Make it so ... '


----------



## mrarroyo

Larry, you will have fun. I remeber when I first had the XM3 and then the XM4, very nice sounding units.


----------



## dadozen

Nice, one more DAC/AMP to be reviwed by HA, this thread is getting better and better!

 Also, this will help me a lot, I'm trying to decide a new portable DAC/AMP combo for myself. I have plenty of time to decide before getting the money to buy one though.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Predator is my first choice as of now.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dadozen* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Nice, one more DAC/AMP to be reviwed by HA, this thread is getting better and better!

 Also, this will help me a lot, I'm trying to decide a new portable DAC/AMP combo for myself. I have plenty of time to decide before getting the money to buy one though.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Predator is my first choice as of now._

 

Two more amps actually - Nuforce Icon Mobile which I am burning in now, and XM5 after that.

 So far the Nuforce is a real treat that gets more refined as it burns in - I listen to it only once a day every 24 hours since last Monday, so I don't get used to the sound signature, and I think it might have already passed up the D2 Boa a little bit.


----------



## dadozen

NICEEE!!!!!!!

 I really trust your reviews Larry, and knowing that the Predator is the one which sounds the best to you really makes me want one. FWIR, you like the same sound signatures as I do.


----------



## jma790

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jvlgato* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wow. Now that's having a rep, my friends! 

 'Make it so ... '_

 

Larry's so cool... I want to be like Larry when I grow up


----------



## oldschool

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dadozen* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Also, this will help me a lot, I'm trying to decide a new portable DAC/AMP combo for myself. I have plenty of time to decide before getting the money to buy one though.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I am also on the search, but looking for something in the $200-300 range. The XM5 review will be very appreciated


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

With all these amps, if you have an iPhone I recommend you go buy the Quick Bridge Solutions - EM Shield for iPhone. I can put my phone within 6-9 inches of the amps without needing the quickbridge EM blocking card, except the D2 Boa needs 1-2 feet and the D3 Python needs 3-4 feet. But with the Quick Bridge card in my iPhone case I can stack the iPhone on most of the amps without the dreaded iPhone buzz, while the D3 and iPhone can be within close proximity but not stacked. 

 However, I pretty much still cannot use my D3 in my own home with anything but full size headphones because of the radio towers from NORAD in my back yard causing so much RFI at the bottom rangeof the volume knob that I can hear with IEM. I have to think about wrapping the amp with some extra EM blocking cards if I want NORAD to get out of my D3 when using it at home. 

 Note - the D3 DAC line out is not affected at all by my iPhone or NORAD so I can use the D3 as a DAC for my home amps with no RFI. I still use the Pico as a DAC for my Woo GES and Stax O2 instead of the D3, because the D3 line out is not high enough voltage for the low gain amp to be driven well. But the D3 is a good DAC for my EF1 in my living room rig, and I don't have to worry about charging it every 20-25 hours like with my Pico. So, for anyone without an iPhone in their pocket or Radio Towers in their back yard, the D3 is still a good bang for the buck - to me it sounds a bit better than the D2 Boa and is closer to the Pico and Predator in sound quality. (the D2 Boa still has a little bit of lower mid/upper bass hump that makes the rest of the mids seem a little recessed to me, but otherwise it is a fine DAC/amp and I've had no trouble with it)

 Also, I'll throw in a teaser on the Nuforce Icon. I am still working on burn-in and review, but so far it sounds very nice if you need a less costly amp than $500, and it's resistance to iPhone interference is good to about 5-6 inches away, while going silent with the EM blocking card in the iPhone case. The mids are similar to the Predator or Meier amps and more forward than the iBasso amps or Pico, but the air and ambience doesn't make the venue sound a lot smaller despite being more forward (like Predator and not as forward as 2MOVE). It has about 180 hours of burn-in towards my goal of 300 for my review, and it sounded dull and bland the first 6 hours and much clearer and detailed by 24 hours later where it was enjoyable, and even more open and spacious by 120 hours. While the bass is maybe 2 db less than the Predator and Pico it is still very good bass. So far, with burn-in I am starting to like this amp a little more than the D2 Boa, which is a fine amp on it's own.


----------



## MaxAmplitude

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaxAmplitude* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No problem... an XM5 will be in your hands this week._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Okay, I'll check your PM soon, and work something out. I didn't see this until it was almost bedtime, as it has been a crazy crazy day today._

 

FYI the tracking number says the XM5 was signed for at your office at 10:44 this morning - 14 minutes later than UPS's "guaranteed" 10:30AM delivery. Bah.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaxAmplitude* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_FYI the tracking number says the XM5 was signed for at your office at 10:44 this morning - 14 minutes later than UPS's "guaranteed" 10:30AM delivery. Bah._

 

Well, that really burns my butt because I went to get packages at 10:30 and missed them, so now I have to go back on the icy roads to do it again.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaxAmplitude* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_FYI the tracking number says the XM5 was signed for at your office at 10:44 this morning - 14 minutes later than UPS's "guaranteed" 10:30AM delivery. Bah._

 

Hey, this XM5 sounds like you already burned it in for me, yes? 

 Or, did you secretly upgrade the opamps in it while I wasn't looking?


----------



## Brighten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hey, this XM5 sounds like you already burned it in for me, yes? 

 Or, did you secretly upgrade the opamps in it while I wasn't looking?_

 

Larry, ALL of the amps you get are upgraded secretly...


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Brighten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Larry, ALL of the amps you get are upgraded secretly... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Well, this review might take me just a little longer because I may also need to try it with OPA627 and AD743 opamps (and maybe my NE5534) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 And if I need to give it my usual 300 hours of burn-in then it wont be ready till early monday 12/22, and I go out of the country on 12/23 for 8 days. I could bring it with me so it looks like I have a bomb with it tied to my iMod and portable Vcaps with LOD and mini-mini cable...

 After these two amps (XM5 and Nurforce), I want to review the iBasso D10 with optical (if portable).


----------



## MaxAmplitude

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hey, this XM5 sounds like you already burned it in for me, yes? 

 Or, did you secretly upgrade the opamps in it while I wasn't looking?_

 


 No, no secret upgrades. This is a stock XM5 with BUF634 buffers. I also included an AD8397 DoubleCat, if you want to do some rolling (the Users Manual describes how to roll the two amp chips and two buffers with the DoubleCat and copper busbars).

 As far as burn-in: being a solidstate device, the XM5 should reach its final configuration fairly quick: less than 8 hours or so (several hours of which have already been done at the factory during functional test).


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaxAmplitude* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No, no secret upgrades. This is a stock XM5 with BUF634 buffers. I also included an AD8397 DoubleCat, if you want to do some rolling (the Users Manual describes how to roll the two amp chips and two buffers with the DoubleCat and copper busbars).

 As far as burn-in: being a solidstate device, the XM5 should reach its final configuration fairly quick: less than 8 hours or so (several hours of which have already been done at the factory during functional test)._

 

PS: You know I was joking about upgrades and already burned-in. It just sounded very nice right out of the box with my ATH-ESW10 and Macbook with lossless or even 256K mp3. Only a few amps arrive sounding really good, and many need 100-300 hours on them.

 It has been running since about 8PM last night, and I'd still like to give it a couple hundred hours for any caps or other components to settle. Right now it sounds clean and powerful without coloration, and has only dropped from 8.4v at arrival to 7.7v now after 15 of running at normal/slightly low volumes. With the ability to drop to the low 5v range from full charge to recharge I can see it going almost 40 hours, even with the Buf634 which I like to see in headphone amps like this dual mono amp. Also, I think the DAC input is at least as detailed as the Predator and 2MOVE which are a couple of my top ranked amps, and I think it might actually be the same DAC as the 2MOVE as well. But, I do not think it is as forward as the 2MOVE so far.

 As for burn-in: Over the past year many amps I have reviewed like the D3 and PenguinAmps only needed about 75 hours to settle down, with Nuforce needing at least 120-170. And some amps like Lyrix and Headsix needed over 200 but the D2 Viper needed 300 and I had to add changes to my review because of the changes after 185 when I did my first review. My iBasso D1 needed 400 to smooth out the highs but sounded nice out of the box with my SE530 and HD600, and the D2 needed 600 to more fully open the soundstage after my review at 300 hours. The Predator stands out in a field of it's own and was simply crazy. It needed 800-1000 hours for the caps to burn-in fully and didn't sound good enough to keep to my ears before 350 hours (Jamato8 and others concur about the lengthy burn-in, and RSA recommends 600 which did make a big improvement).

 After burn-in and initial assessment I am considering trying XM5 with my spare pair of OPA627 and/or AD743, but it turns out I don't have any of my 3 pairs of AD797 here any more (one set went with the D1 I sold, another went with the Xin SM III I sold because it didn't have a DAC, and I gave away a set of 797 to mrarroyo who did me a favor or two). QUESTION: can any opamp be used as a buffer, or are the buffer sockets limited to buf634 only? I don't think others would be as good as the buf634. SECOND: do I need to do the copper bridge if I try the AD8397, or can the buf634 stay? I know the AD8397 is a very high output opamp and doesn't really need buffers, but we used LMH6655 in the iBasso D1 with AD8397 to smooth it out.

 I often don't like opening up an amp to roll opamps if the stock sound is good enough to make me happy, and I suspect this will sound good enough that I will feel lazy about rolling...


----------



## dadozen

Man, that *10/10* for the Predator really makes me want one, even though I already own a SR-71A. But I'm guessing that a Pico DAC + SR-71A will be a great combo as well. Will it?


----------



## hockeyb213

if u have a blackbird no need for a predator dude if anything get a separate dac I have heard both and the blackbird is just the amp to have if u don't need the dac and smallness


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dadozen* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Man, that *10/10* for the Predator really makes me want one, even though I already own a SR-71A. But I'm guessing that a Pico DAC + SR-71A will be a great combo as well. Will it?
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Remember I said the 10 is a relative 10 - meaning I didn't want to say a 10 is an imaginary perfect portable USB amp, and then rate the real amps for how far below they fall below the mythical 10 that doesn't exist. And I didn't want to compare the portables to a desktop amp that would be set as a 10 since I don't want to mix apples and oranges.

 I made the 10 the best portable I have actually heard, and compared the others to that standard. The 10 is based on the absolute enjoyment of the product as a whole, when driving a wide variety of headphones off the computer's USB. If used as a DAC preamp to feed a high end desktop amp the Pico DAC is a 10 while the Predator DAC is a 9.1, or so... The Pico's neutrality and Predator's extra character affect the sound of the desktop amp being driven to varying degrees, and the Pico is more suited to driving most of my desktop amps than the Predator is.


----------



## dadozen

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *hockeyb213* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_if u have a blackbird no need for a predator dude if anything get a separate dac I have heard both and the blackbird is just the amp to have if u don't need the dac and smallness_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Remember I said the 10 is a relative 10 - meaning I didn't want to say a 10 is an imaginary perfect portable USB amp, and then rate the real amps for how far below they fall below the mythical 10 that doesn't exist. And I didn't want to compare the portables to a desktop amp that would be set as a 10 since I don't want to mix apples and oranges.

 I made the 10 the best portable I have actually heard, and compared the others to that standard. The 10 is based on the absolute enjoyment of the product as a whole, when driving a wide variety of headphones off the computer's USB. If used as a DAC preamp to feed a high end desktop amp the Pico DAC is a 10 while the Predator DAC is a 9.1, or so... The Pico's neutrality and Predator's extra character affect the sound of the desktop amp being driven to varying degrees, and the Pico is more suited to driving most of my desktop amps than the Predator is._

 

thanks A LOT guys, that's exactly what I needed to hear( or maybe read 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ) to answer my final questions and being sure to go for a Pico DAC. I have talked to Justin and he's not officially making a pre-order list yet, but he'll be writing my name down so I'll be one of the first to get the new devide, if not the very first one. That makes me feel very special
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 HA, I had that in mind, I just didn't think you ranked your amps like that if used as DAC only. I wanted to get a Predator to "facilitate" things, but I guess I can manage to get a little more space to use a Pico DAC + RSA SR-71A.

 I'll be spending a little more money on RCA to RCA and mini to mini cabls, but oh well, my wallet already hates me, so hating a bit more or a bit less won't make much of a difference


----------



## Brighten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dadozen* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_thanks A LOT guys, that's exactly what I needed to hear( or maybe read 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ) to answer my final questions and being sure to go for a Pico DAC. I have talked to Justin and he's not officially making a pre-order list yet, but he'll be writing my name down so I'll be one of the first to get the new devide, if not the very first one. That makes me feel very special
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 HA, I had that in mind, I just didn't think you ranked your amps like that if used as DAC only. I wanted to get a Predator to "facilitate" things, but I guess I can manage to get a little more space to use a Pico DAC + RSA SR-71A.

 I'll be spending a little more money on RCA to RCA and mini to mini cabls, but oh well, my wallet already hates me, so hating a bit more or a bit less won't make much of a difference
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Or, if you didn't want to carry around two portable bricks you could just get the original Pico.

 Sorry if I sound sarcastic, I don't mean to.


----------



## dadozen

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Brighten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Or, if you didn't want to carry around two portable bricks you could just get the original Pico.

 Sorry if I sound sarcastic, I don't mean to._

 

Didn't sound sarcastic to me
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 thing is, Brighten, that my home rig is my Cantate, which I can't carry everywhere I go when I travel and take my laptop( which has my music library ). I have really liked how RSA amps sound, so I wanted to get a DAC from Ray, but was still deciding if getting a Predator was a good idea. 

 Then people came up with the idea of waiting for the Pico DAC-only, so I can use it with my SR-71A for a transportable rig( my portable keeps being the ipod + SR-71A + UE TF 10 Pros ) when I happen to be out of home. I won't be carrying around those two "bricks" with me all the time
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 And, after buying the SR-71A, I don't think I'd enjoy that much how the Pico DAC/AMP sound according to what I've read from HA's review. I want to have RSA colored sound from my "transportable rig".

 So, this seems to be the most reasonable choice for me, as of now.


----------



## kostalex

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_... If used as a DAC preamp to feed a high end desktop amp the Pico DAC is a 10 while the Predator DAC is a 9.1, or so..._

 

How would you rank D3 and 2Move as a DAC preamp?


----------



## nocturnalsheet

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The D3/HD600 was just as exciting with Infected Mushroom "Dancing with the Kadafi" as with the Pico and V1 in my earlier reviews, and I could achieve the same volume levels with the D3 at 4 o'clock as the Pico at 3 o'clock, but past that either amp would start clipping._

 

Hi Larry, i would like to ask if you are listening to the D3 at high gain with the HD600 at 4 o' clock?

 thanks


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kostalex* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How would you rank D3 and 2Move as a DAC preamp?_

 

That's a tough question because I don't still have Skylab's 2MOVE loaner to compare to, but from what I recall the 2MOVE was a little more forward and not as open and spacious for me to want to use it as DAC/preamp with a home amp - I would be doubling up on some of the colorations with the home amp as well (I don't want a warm rich lush pre-amp feeding a warm rich lush home amp, or I might get too much of a good thing). Theoretically, you don't want the source coloring or adding/subtracting to the sound when you can change your headphones for that. If the headphones aren't giving what you need, yes you can change the source or amp to suit it, but I want my DAC/Preamps to pass through as much of the original program material to my amp and headphones as possible. If the space and ambience or size of venue is missing a little from the source, it my be even more so once it passes through the home amp. The 2MOVE could be used to add that presentation to a cold neutral amp, and some people might enjoy it that way in those cases. 

 The D3 DAC line out is a little underwhelming in terms of energy and dynamics with too little output voltage for my needs, and I would like it better as a DAC/Preamp at which point it sounds closer to my Headroom Micro DAC (tried it once that way but did not study it or take notes). I had that same issue with my iBasso D1 working better as a DAC/preamp than with the line out, which is why I replaced it with the Headrom Micro DAC in the first place. Still, D3 would serve as a DAC or DAC/preamp a little better than the Predator and a bit better than the 2MOVE due to it's slightly better micro-detail and ambience retrieval with nice open soundstage and fairly neutral tone. It still falls a little below the Pico for reasons mentioned in my review, and the RFI problem has me considering selling it.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nocturnalsheet* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi Larry, i would like to ask if you are listening to the D3 at high gain with the HD600 at 4 o' clock?

 thanks_

 

No, not all the time. But for the review I did put on some Ety music earplugs and crank the amps in high gain to see what they could do. I forgot about this part of the review, and remembered the D3 didn't drive the AKG K240M 600 ohm as loud but didn't remember the D3 doing the HD600 as loudly.


----------



## kostalex

I just compared D3 vs Pico feeding WooAudio 3 -> HD650.

 Yes, *D3 DAC Line out* does not offer even 80% of Pico SQ, so I may rank it like 7.5.

 Thanks for HA tips, I also tried D3 headphone out as the source for WA3. It performs much better but still yields to Pico. I may rank *D3 DAC preamp* like 8.8 vs 10 for Pico (it seems that my scale is different from HA). 

 Some details on D3 DAC SQ from the headphone out to WA3:

 With Nightwish "Dark chest of wonders" Pico separates instruments better, provides more details on bass notes, more coherent and deeper soundstage. With D3 there are two noticeable L and R blobs.

 With Eva Cassidy "Autumn Leaves" D3 sounds sibillant on either gain (more on Hi) and Pico is smooth with no hint of sibilance while detailed. But main difference is not easy to describe in definite terms. It is how well Pico conveys the emotions of this song. D3 is uninvolving in comparison.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kostalex* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just compared D3 vs Pico feeding WooAudio 3 -> HD650.

 Yes, *D3 DAC Line out* does not offer even 80% of Pico SQ, so I may rank it like 7.5.

 Thanks for HA tips, I also tried D3 headphone out as the source for WA3. It performs much better but still yields to Pico. I may rank *D3 DAC preamp* like 8.8 vs 10 for Pico (it seems that my scale is different from HA). 

 Some details on D3 DAC SQ from the headphone out to WA3:

 With Nightwish "Dark chest of wonders" *Pico separates instruments better, provides more details on bass notes, more coherent and deeper soundstage*. With D3 there are two noticeable L and R blobs.

 With Eva Cassidy "Autumn Leaves" D3 sounds sibillant on either gain (more on Hi) and Pico is smooth with no hint of sibilance while detailed. But main difference is not easy to describe in definite terms. It is how well Pico conveys the emotions of this song. *D3 is uninvolving in comparison.*_

 

That's pretty much what I hear.


----------



## Brighten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dadozen* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Didn't sound sarcastic to me
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 thing is, Brighten, that my home rig is my Cantate, which I can't carry everywhere I go when I travel and take my laptop( which has my music library ). I have really liked how RSA amps sound, so I wanted to get a DAC from Ray, but was still deciding if getting a Predator was a good idea. 

 Then people came up with the idea of waiting for the Pico DAC-only, so I can use it with my SR-71A for a transportable rig( my portable keeps being the ipod + SR-71A + UE TF 10 Pros ) when I happen to be out of home. I won't be carrying around those two "bricks" with me all the time
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 And, after buying the SR-71A, I don't think I'd enjoy that much how the Pico DAC/AMP sound according to what I've read from HA's review. I want to have RSA colored sound from my "transportable rig".

 So, this seems to be the most reasonable choice for me, as of now._

 

Right on, I get your reasoning.


----------



## MaxAmplitude

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_QUESTION: can any opamp be used as a buffer, or are the buffer sockets limited to buf634 only? I don't think others would be as good as the buf634._

 

I'm going to define the following: "Semi-Standard Singlechannel OpAmp Pinout" ("SSSOAP") - which is what the OPA134 has, as well as a zillion other single-channel 8-pin opamp chips (pin2 = "opamp input-", pin3="opamp input+", pin4="negative supply", pin6=output, pin7="positive supply").

 The BUF634 sockets on the XM5 can handle anything with a SSSOAP; any SSSOAP chip you stick in a buffer socket will be configured as a non-inverting follower (with Gain=1x, or 0 dB)
 So yes, you can put other chips in the buffer sockets - although I haven't tried this much, YMMV.



  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_SECOND: do I need to do the copper bridge if I try the AD8397, or can the buf634 stay? I know the AD8397 is a very high output opamp and doesn't really need buffers, but we used LMH6655 in the iBasso D1 with AD8397 to smooth it out.

 I often don't like opening up an amp to roll opamps if the stock sound is good enough to make me happy, and I suspect this will sound good enough that I will feel lazy about rolling..._

 

Yes, you can leave the BUF634s in when using the AD8397. But like you said the AD8397 already contains (very strong) output buffering, so having another set of buffers in series won't buy you much of anything. I've never actually tried this AD8397+BUF634 configuration myself; but if you uncover a great discovery, let me know.


----------



## ZoNtO

I'm intrigued for this XM5 review Larry because it has a lot of features that would be really beneficial to me, just don't see much written about it.

 Thanks for taking so much time to test and post your reviews for us!


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ZoNtO* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm intrigued for this XM5 review Larry because it has a lot of features that would be really beneficial to me, just don't see much written about it.

 Thanks for taking so much time to test and post your reviews for us!_

 

I've given out preliminary thoughts on the Nuforce in other threads, so I'll toss out a teaser here.

 So far I really like the XM5 - the quality of sound it puts out deserves the $245-$325 that it sells for (depending on options like optional BUF634, or AD8397 kit, or Li rechargable vs Alkaline). I assume this dual mono amp has to be a major upgrade from the XM4, not just an evolution.

 And the number of features it has makes my head spin. I like the 1-3-6 hours timer for falling asleep to music, similar to my old Xin super macro III but more precise, the battery voltage display (# of LED flashes) comes in handy, and I've already dimmed the LED. Crossfeed has a more profound effect than Micro Amp and Meier, but it is adjustable from near full stereo all the way to mono - so I need to spend some time with that other than at the factory setting. I haven't needed bass or treble boost, high gain, LED flashlight or 75 ohm P-to-S switch yet. I was disappointed that it wont brush or whiten my teeth yet.

 I left it on 24/7 for burn-in and I got between 30-40 hours on the Li rechargable the first time around - it was still playing at 30 hours (6.5v) when I went to bed and when I woke up 10 hours later the battery was drained. At full charge the battery meter says it is 8.5 volts, so it drops about 1v per 15 hours. They claim 30 hours on rechargable with the extra optional chips, but I think it may be good for up to 35 hours at normal low-medium volume levels. Louder volumes may result in it being drained by 30 hours. This still doubles the battery life vs D2 Viper and 30% more than Pico, but is about the same as D2 Boa - while still half what the Predator does, it also seems to have more output power than Predator.

 The Nuforce and XM5 USB DAC seem to have a good level of detail as well, despite the lack of a high technology DAC circuit like a USB receiver > I2S > Wolfson WM8740, and are are at least as good as the 2MOVE and Predator DAC (i.e. better than Headstage DAC).

 My review will cover this in more detail, plus the sound vs the other amps and synergy with various headphones and IEM. I hope to have my Nuforce review posted by the end of this weekend, and the XM5 the following weekend.


----------



## dwong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've given out preliminary thoughts on the Nuforce in other threads, so I'll toss out a teaser here.

 So far I really like the XM5 - the quality of sound it puts out deserves the $245-$325 that it sells for (depending on options like optional BUF634, or AD8397 kit, or Li rechargable vs Alkaline). I assume this dual mono amp has to be a major upgrade from the XM4, not just an evolution.

 And the number of features it has makes my head spin. I like the 1-3-6 hours timer for falling asleep to music, similar to my old Xin super macro III but more precise, the battery voltage display (# of LED flashes) comes in handy, and I've already dimmed the LED. Crossfeed has a more profound effect than Micro Amp and Meier, but it is adjustable from near full stereo all the way to mono - so I need to spend some time with that other than at the factory setting. I haven't needed bass or treble boost, high gain, LED flashlight or 75 ohm P-to-S switch yet. I was disappointed that it wont brush or whiten my teeth yet.

 I left it on 24/7 for burn-in and I got between 30-40 hours on the Li rechargable the first time around - it was still playing at 30 hours (6.5v) when I went to bed and when I woke up 10 hours later the battery was drained. At full charge the battery meter says it is 8.5 volts, so it drops about 1v per 15 hours. They claim 30 hours on rechargable with the extra optional chips, but I think it may be good for up to 35 hours at normal low-medium volume levels. Louder volumes may result in it being drained by 30 hours. This still doubles the battery life vs D2 Viper and 30% more than Pico, but is about the same as D2 Boa - while still half what the Predator does, it also seems to have more output power than Predator.

 The Nuforce and XM5 USB DAC seem to have a good level of detail as well, despite the lack of a high technology DAC circuit like a USB receiver > I2S > Wolfson WM8740, and are are at least as good as the 2MOVE and Predator DAC (i.e. better than Headstage DAC).

 My review will cover this in more detail, plus the sound vs the other amps and synergy with various headphones and IEM. I hope to have my Nuforce review posted by the end of this weekend, and the XM5 the following weekend._

 

Can't wait for the full review to see how it ranks amongst the pricier portable dac/amps. I'm going to be getting either the iBasso D3 or the Nuforce Mobile to use as a dac/amp combo for my D2000's. Your comments on the SQ progress of the Nuforce have been such a tease


----------



## somestranger26

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dwong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Can't wait for the full review to see how it ranks amongst the pricier portable dac/amps. I'm going to be getting either the iBasso D3 or the Nuforce Mobile to use as a dac/amp combo for my D2000's. Your comments on the SQ progress of the Nuforce have been such a tease 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I can't wait for his review of the Nuforce Icon Mobile so I can decide between that and the iBasso T4 for my Westone 3s.


----------



## Lamenthe

Just curious: Would using the RSA Predator as a DAC/preamp be worthwhile versus using it as a stand alone? 

 Or is that reserved for comparatively better DACs like the Pico?


----------



## kostalex

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Lamenthe* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just curious: Would using the RSA Predator as a DAC/preamp be worthwhile versus using it as a stand alone?_

 

It depends strictly on what are you going to feed from the Predator DAC/preamp.


----------



## nocturnalsheet

cant wait for your review again, larry.

 your review for the D3 was the dealbreaker for me to get it. 

 never regretted my buy. i be interested to find out how the Nuforce and the XM5 will compare to the D3.

 looking forward to reading your review.


----------



## csroc

I've been using the XM5 myself for just a bit now and really like it. I got it with the BUF634 chips and it's a great little device I think. Curious to see what you think of it overall as it seems to be a less well known option most places.


----------



## Currawong

Larry, I haven't gone through all the pages, but have you considered reviewing them all not just using USB but as amps only?

 Thanks though for the epic effort.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Larry, I haven't gone through all the pages, but have you considered reviewing them all not just using USB but as amps only?

 Thanks though for the epic effort._

 

I think I've mentioned before that the *only* two amps that would change in rank if using it only via analog input is (1) the Lyrix, which would move UP in rank to be above the V1 and D2 Boa or stock D2 Viper, and (2) the D1 which would move to the bottom.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Sorry guys, I've had some technical difficulties and my Nuforce review is delayed a little bit. I'm going to need more time on this.


----------



## jma790

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sorry guys, I've had some technical difficulties and my Nuforce review is delayed a little bit. I'm going to need more time on this._

 

Don't worry about that Larry; no one is going to kill you for that 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





... well, maybe me


----------



## bostitch

Noo!!! I've been checking your thread almost every hour to see if the review is up or not. Lol 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Nahh, it's all good, take your time. I am really looking forward to your review.

 I am actually to the point where I want to buy an amp/dac combo to use it with my current phone (iM716, Denon C700, maybe KSC75), and potentially one Denon D2000/5000 when I really feel the urge to get one 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. I will use my laptop as the source or sometime my portable.

 Do you think nuforce icon mobile is good enough for those phones? Otherwise what is your recommendation?


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/3947073-post2.html


----------



## oldschool

Great review, thanks! Can't wait for the XM5 review, when is it coming?


----------



## dmashta

Thanks once again for the in depth review. I don't know how you keep doing it.


----------



## jvlgato

Very nice, as always. Thanks!


----------



## dwong

Wow, great review! Thank you for your efforts, you really went above and beyond on the new Nuforce Mobile review.


----------



## jaykay

Thanks for the great, in depth review! I'm likely going to pick up a black icon mobile soon to pair up with my 3s.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *oldschool* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Great review, thanks! Can't wait for the XM5 review, when is it coming? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

After I recover from the last review!


----------



## slwiser

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jaykay* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks for the great, in depth review! I'm likely going to pick up a black icon mobile soon to pair up with my 3s.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Yes, another great review, thanks.

 I ordered the Nuforce Icon Mobile last week and it came today. It sounds very good using my ESW10JPN and Fuse. It's size is perfect match with my Fuse.


----------



## GreatDane

Very thorough review. Thanks for your time.


----------



## helmerkelps

Larry,

 Thanks for the great review. I got my Icon Mobile amp yesterday and kept it running on the usb from my mac through itunes last night. It is starting to sound great with my Allesandro MS1s especially out of the USB of my computer! I'm waiting to order the LOD dock from Nuforce when it becomes available. This is a really impressive little amp. (My 1st one, but it sounded great out of the box and is only getting better)


----------



## bostitch

Thanks for the review! Excellent work!


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Thanks Guys!

 BTW, Jason at Nuforce tells me that all the new Icon Mobiles coming this Friday (red, black, blue plus new silver stocks) are shipping with the new case already.


----------



## clownzee

new case???? what new case??? omg.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *clownzee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_new case???? what new case??? omg._

 

I mean, "Amp Housing" not a case to put it in.

 Some of the larger diameter 1/8" aftermarket Neutrik headphone plugs hit a thin lip around the headphone jack, and prevent full insertion. In my case these fatter plugs are only on my full size headphones that were re-cabled by APS. The smaller version of the plug from Neutrik (like those on several of my line out docks) fit fine. But the APS cable is thicker than normal headphone cables and needed a wider plug. Nuforce made some changes so wider headphone plugs will be less of an issue in the future. If a person has a problem, Nuforce will give them the newer case/shell for the amp.


----------



## bostitch

What is the battery life on the Nuforce icon mobile?


----------



## tstarn06

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I mean, "Amp Housing" not a case to put it in.

 Some of the larger diameter 1/8" aftermarket Neutrik headphone plugs hit a thin lip around the headphone jack, and prevent full insertion. In my case these fatter plugs are only on my full size headphones that were re-cabled by APS. The smaller version of the plug from Neutrik (like those on several of my line out docks) fit fine. But the APS cable is thicker than normal headphone cables and needed a wider plug. Nuforce made some changes so wider headphone plugs will be less of an issue in the future. If a person has a problem, Nuforce will give them the newer case/shell for the amp._

 

Oops, I didn't see this. I had a problem with my LOD. This was buried in this thread, and I had not seen anyone complain about the problem before. My hope is Jason will contact me ASAP since I really want to keep the amp. Does that black case/cover just pop off?


----------



## jvlgato

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The Nuforce and XM5 USB DAC seem to have a good level of detail as well, despite the lack of a high technology DAC circuit like a USB receiver > I2S > Wolfson WM8740, and are are at least as good as the 2MOVE and Predator DAC (i.e. better than Headstage DAC)._

 

What kind of DAC does Nuforce use?


----------



## jvlgato

'(icon mobile ) not first choice for Grado but would not avoid the amp because one owns Grados,'

 For synergy w/ Grados, how would you compare Nuforce icon mobile vs ibasso D2 boa? 

 It sounded like overall you thought they were equal but different; each had its strengths and weaknesses but ended up tied at #5. But it also sounded like there were pretty specific potential problems w/ each w/ respect to the Grados (sibilance, low midrange bump and suck out, female vocals). Does it still come down to equal but different depending on individual preference when it comes to using w/ Grado?

 Is there a first choice in this price range for Grados?


----------



## RASeymour

Hats off to HeadphoneAddict for a great review.

 In looking at his picks and cruising online, there is a great discrepancy between the prices for these amps. It seems that you get what you pay for.

 Of the list, the Nuforce seems to be the best value for the dollar, other considerations set aside.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bostitch* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What is the battery life on the Nuforce icon mobile?_

 

13 hours, I got anywhere between 10-15 hours depending on the volume used, and it takes about 2-3 hours to charge up.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jvlgato* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What kind of DAC does Nuforce use?_

 

"C-Media USB Headphone Set" is all I know.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Per Nuforce Website:* 
_
 USB DAC:

 USB 2.0 compatible
 Supports 44.1kHz and 48kHz native sampling rates
 Microphone input: 16-bit ADC 4-pin mini stereo compatible headsets_

 

It seems to be on par with the DAC in the Predator, 2MOVE and XM5 and a little better than the USB DAC in the Headstage, or the USB portion of the iBasso D1 (optical was really much better). The DAC's using the Wolfson WM8740 Like Pico and iBasso are a little more detailed and spacious).


----------



## ZoNtO

How many hours burn-in does the XM5 have at this point? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I'm really excited about that review coming up! Might be just what I'm looking for for my Ety er4p...


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tstarn06* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Oops, I didn't see this. I had a problem with my LOD. This was buried in this thread, and I had not seen anyone complain about the problem before. My hope is Jason will contact me ASAP since I really want to keep the amp. Does that black case/cover just pop off?_

 

I think you separate the halves with a screw driver through the gain switch opening. But, I would PM or email Nuforce about it first - they have been very helpful.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jvlgato* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_'(icon mobile ) not first choice for Grado but would not avoid the amp because one owns Grados,'

 For synergy w/ Grados, how would you compare Nuforce icon mobile vs ibasso D2 boa? 

 It sounded like overall you thought they were equal but different; each had its strengths and weaknesses but ended up tied at #5. But it also sounded like there were pretty specific potential problems w/ each w/ respect to the Grados (sibilance, low midrange bump and suck out, female vocals). Does it still come down to equal but different depending on individual preference when it comes to using w/ Grado?

 Is there a first choice in this price range for Grados?_

 

I would say equal but different, and both better than the V1 with Grados. 

 The D2 Boa could be used to add some distance between you and the instruments in jazz and classical, but the soundstage is more diffuse and less precise (like Stax SR-Lambda) while the Nuforce soundstage was more precise and focused (like Stax SR-5NB or SR-X). So with Rock music, the D2's middle-mids and upper-mids seem pulled back a little more in relation to the lower-mids and upper-bass. So, with vocals and rock I prefer the Nuforce, but jazz and classical are still good with the Nuforce because imaging is important with those. 

 It also depends on what Grados you are using. The MS-1 and RS-2 are a little more forward sounding, while the HF-1 and RS-1 have a little bigger soundstage. So, I can use flats on the HF-1 and RS-1 with the D2 Boa to not have a feeling of distant recessed mids, but in the end I decided that with bowls I prefer the Nuforce (esp with rock).

 1st place in the price range with Grados is the Headstage Lyrix or rolled opamp iBasso D1, but the DAC is not quite as detailed.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ZoNtO* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How many hours burn-in does the XM5 have at this point? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'm really excited about that review coming up! Might be just what I'm looking for for my Ety er4p..._

 

About 110 hours, but PD said it only needs about 8 hours. For fairness sake with all the other amps having 200-1000 hours at time of review, I am doing 180-200 hours so if it doesn't beat another amp we wont all wonder how it would have ended if it had as many hours as the others I reviewed.

 On the other hand, it doesn't seem to be changing much with more time, and sounded great out of the box. I expect to be done by the end of the weekend. Although I said the same with the Nuforce I only needed the one extra day than I promised to finish it.


----------



## tstarn06

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think you separate the halves with a screw driver through the gain switch opening. But, I would PM or email Nuforce about it first - they have been very helpful._

 

Jason is going to send me a new amp to replace this one. Also, another Head-Fi'er just modded his by trimming away the excess around the jack. I am just going to wait for the new one.


----------



## bostitch

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_13 hours, I got anywhere between 10-15 hours depending on the volume used, and it takes about 2-3 hours to charge up._

 

Thanks! That's not bad, considering its size.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Yeah, most people wont be plugging in HD600, cranking the volume to 100% and sticking them under a pillow. Most of the time, 15 hours with a nice IEM at normal volumes is enough to fly to Hawaii and back on one charge.


----------



## jaykay

I went ahead and ordered an Icon Mobile. I'll see how it compares with my lyrix after a day of burn in when it comes then I'll let it burn in over the holidays. Thanks again for the great indepth review Larry. Your dedicated reviews are really invaluable for the head-fi community


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jaykay* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I went ahead and ordered an Icon Mobile. I'll see how it compares with my lyrix after a day of burn in when it comes then I'll let it burn in over the holidays. Thanks again for the great indepth review Larry. Your dedicated reviews are really invaluable for the head-fi community 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

The Icon needs about 180-200 hours to compare to the Lyrix, and the main advantage will be the Icon's DAC has more micro-detail and the amp section will sound more forward than the Lyrix. The Lyrix on the other hand will have more power, but doesn't mate as well with headphones with recessed mids like the Denon D2000, Proline 2500, Darth Beyer - where the Nuforce will sound a little more like the Meier Headsix and fill in the mids nicely. And, the Lyrix bass can be a little too much with the Denon D2000 and over power the D2000 slight recessed mids, while the Nuforce is just right with the D2000 (even woodied recabled ones like mine) and the bass and mids are better matched to each other. With the D2000 the Nuforce comes very close to matching the power of the Lyrix, where with HD600 a bigger difference in power is noticed.


----------



## jaykay

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The Icon needs about 180-200 hours to compare to the Lyrix, and the main advantage will be the Icon's DAC has more micro-detail and the amp section will sound more forward than the Lyrix. The Lyrix on the other hand will have more power, but doesn't mate as well with headphones with recessed mids like the Denon D2000, Proline 2500, Darth Beyer - where the Nuforce will sound a little more like the Meier Headsix and fill in the mids nicely. And, the Lyrix bass can be a little too much with the Denon D2000 and over power the D2000 slight recessed mids, while the Nuforce is just right with the D2000 (even woodied recabled ones like mine) and the bass and mids are better matched to each other. With the D2000 the Nuforce comes very close to matching the power of the Lyrix, where with HD600 a bigger difference in power is noticed._

 

That's great information because over the past week or so I've been considering purchasing a pair of d2000 at the end of next semester. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Oh and I'll definitely let the Nuforce burn in for the 200 hour mark. The only thing that I feel is lacking from my lyrix is the dac as you mentioned in your review. Once the Nuforce gets settled in I'll likely enjoy it more than the lyrix due to the more foward sounding dac.


----------



## dwong

After about a month of searching for something to go with my D2000's, I think I'm going to purchase this as both my first DAC and amp. Going to wait on the order until Friday to get the new casing. It seems like this $100 investment will provide everything I have been looking for: cheap, good, USB rechargeable, includes dac, synergy with D2000 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Thanks again Larry!


----------



## jvlgato

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jaykay* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's great information because over the past week or so I've been considering purchasing a pair of d2000 at the end of next semester. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Oh and I'll definitely let the Nuforce burn in for the 200 hour mark. The only thing that I feel is lacking from my lyrix is the dac as you mentioned in your review. Once the Nuforce gets settled in I'll likely enjoy it more than the lyrix due to the more foward sounding dac._

 


 jaykay,

 I'm very interested in your impressions since I am considering buying one of these two, as well as possibly an ibasso Boa. I look forward to hearing what you think!


----------



## jaykay

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jvlgato* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_jaykay,

 I'm very interested in your impressions since I am considering buying one of these two, as well as possibly an ibasso Boa. I look forward to hearing what you think!_

 

Sure thing! It'll take about a week after I receive the amp before I start to listen to it more critically though. I want to give it a chance to open up first. I'll be sure to give you my impressions of them compared to my lyrix.


----------



## chinesekiwi

Epic review to say the least.

 Anyway, why hasn't a big website signed Larry's ass already?
 He really should get paid to do this stuff tbh.


----------



## KiwiChristchurch

Hi I have been a lurker here in headfi, have been following HeadphoneAddict's impressions and review of the Icon Mobile.
 I have not too long ago purchased an HD650 and I have been looking for an amp in my budget ever-since. This leads me to my question, will the Nulforce Icon Moblie properly drive the HD650? I am aware that most if not all portable headphone amps will not drive the HD650 to it's fullest potential, as many people here say, but all I would want is better sound than that of the sound coming straight from my cowon d2.
 Excuse me for my ignorance and thanks in advance for answering a rookie's question.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *KiwiChristchurch* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi I have been a lurker here in headfi, have been following HeadphoneAddict's impressions and review of the Icon Mobile.
 I have not too long ago purchased an HD650 and I have been looking for an amp in my budget ever-since. This leads me to my question, will the Nulforce Icon Moblie properly drive the HD650? I am aware that most if not all portable headphone amps will not drive the HD650 to it's fullest potential, as many people here say, but all I would want is better sound than that of the sound coming straight from my cowon d2.
 Excuse me for my ignorance and thanks in advance for answering a rookie's question._

 

If you read the review you'd see the tonality is good at medium volumes with 300 ohm Sennheiser, but power with them is lacking. The Pico, V1, or D3 would be better suited for HD600/650.


----------



## bostitch

Is there any negative effect to the battery life (if any) when connecting any of these amp/usb dac with built-in rechargeable battery all the time to a computer through usb cable? If so, how difficult or easy is it to change the built-in rechargeable battery?


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bostitch* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is there any negative effect to the battery life (if any) when connecting any of these amp/usb dac with built-in rechargeable battery all the time to a computer through usb cable? If so, how difficult or easy is it to change the built-in rechargeable battery?_

 

I have no idea. Sorry.


----------



## Z4N5H1N

From the review, it looks like the Lyrix is pretty solid if used purely as an analog amp. So long as the DAC is not used, it's quite a nice sounding amp?


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Z4N5H1N* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_From the review, it looks like the Lyrix is pretty solid if used purely as an analog amp. So long as the DAC is not used, it's quite a nice sounding amp?_

 

Yes. With some headphones like Proline 2500 and Denon D2000 or Darth Beyers the mids are still a little bit recessed, which is the fault of the headphones, but with Grado and Sennheiser and Ultrasone the mids are just fine. The DAC is decent, just not the best, it doesn't hurt the sound as much as it doesn't allow the full experience.


----------



## Z4N5H1N

Sounds like it should be a good match for my SR-80s, then, yeah?


----------



## Discover

Larry, great reviews!

 As you just mention headphones suiting specific amps - what do you think would suit a ATH-M50 better? iBasso D3, Corda 2/3Move or Nuforce Icon Mobile?

 What do you think about the Crossfeed of the Corda Move? Anything better than the D3 or so?


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Discover* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Larry, great reviews!

 As you just mention headphones suiting specific amps - what do you think would suit a ATH-M50 better? iBasso D3, Corda 2/3Move or Nuforce Icon Mobile?

 What do you think about the Crossfeed of the Corda Move? Anything better than the D3 or so?_

 

1. Never heard the AYH-M50, so can't help.
 2. The crossfeed is mild/subtle but I usually don't use them often except when I want to change things up a little.
 3. D3 doesn't have crossfeed.


----------



## Brighten

HeadphoneAddict-

 I know this is a tad off topic, but reading back into the threads a little bit and seeing that you have heard the Millet Hybrid Portable Amp, how would you say it's performance ranks with the Pico using your RS-1?


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Brighten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_HeadphoneAddict-

 I know this is a tad off topic, but reading back into the threads a little bit and seeing that you have heard the Millet Hybrid Portable Amp, how would you say it's performance ranks with the Pico using your RS-1?_

 

The TTVJ Millett Portable is not as detailed as the Pico, but the synergy with Grado is magical. See http://www.head-fi.org/forums/4024605-post69.html

 Also http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f5/hea...hybrid-328479/


----------



## davidw89

Hi there. Can i ask how many hours of burn in your iBasso D3 has? I just ordered one, should come in a few weeks or so, would love to start the burn in process, since i had a DAC can i just run i straight from the computer + headphones and leave it running. Also does this run on 5xAAA battery? Are these provided? If not will the Sanyo Enloope be fine?


----------



## slwiser

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The TTVJ Millett Portable is not as detailed as the Pico, but the synergy with Grado is magical. See http://www.head-fi.org/forums/4024605-post69.html

 Also http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f5/hea...hybrid-328479/_

 

A little off topic again but how does this TTVJ sound with your ATH-ESW10JPN?

 This morning and last night I have been comparing the sound of my ESW9 and ESW10JPN and the Mobile makes my ESW9 sound closer to my ESW10JPN than any of my amps. I guess the synergy here is with the ESW9 and Mobile. The ESW10JPN scales much better with better amps such as my Yamamoto HA02.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *davidw89* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi there. Can i ask how many hours of burn in your iBasso D3 has? I just ordered one, should come in a few weeks or so, would love to start the burn in process, since i had a DAC can i just run i straight from the computer + headphones and leave it running. Also does this run on 5xAAA battery? Are these provided? If not will the Sanyo Enloope be fine?_

 

I really wish people would read the review for those answers before asking - I get PM all the time as well, and it's right there in the second paragraph of the D3 section:

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* 
_*I used 5xAAA Energizer batteries* in the D3 and I got 123 hours out of the batteries before they became too weak to play loud without distortion today. The next set last 113 hours. The third set was *Rayovac Hybrid NiMH long lasting re-chargeables which went over 96* hours on a charge (it was still running strong at 96 hours at 2am even though the LED had become dim, and it was dead at 10am when I got up). During burn-in I used my Denon D2000 with a pillow between the ear cups and listened intermittently each day, without a lot of changes during that time. I just finished charging the batteries, and *with 332 hours on the D3 I am starting my review (10/29/08)*._

 

Based on the above, don't why eneloop wouldn't work, since the Rayovac are just like them.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *slwiser* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_A little off topic again but how does this TTVJ sound with your ATH-ESW10JPN?

 This morning and last night I have been comparing the sound of my ESW9 and ESW10JPN and the Mobile makes my ESW9 sound closer to my ESW10JPN than any of my amps. I guess the synergy here is with the ESW9 and Mobile. The ESW10JPN scales much better with better amps such as my Yamamoto HA02._

 

I don't understand the question. You are using "Mobile" capitalized and I don't know what the Mobile is?

 As for the TTVJ Portable Millett Hybrid question, I have not tried them together yet. I'll have to do that later. In my Millett review I noted the TTVJ was very much like a desktop amp.

 EDIT - I figured it out - "Mobile" is the Nuforce Icon. The TTVJ is a forward amp like the Mobile, with good treble, so it might make the ESW9 sound more similar to the ESW10 as well, all I know is that the Mobile sounds good with ESW10. I'll report back later on TTVJ.


----------



## oogabooga

HeadphoneAddict,

 Care to give us any weekend teasers your upcoming, much anticipated XM5 review? I'm looking at opamp upgrades (I've got the stock OPA134s) and I'm really curious how that AD8397 sounds cf. the OPA134s.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *oogabooga* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_HeadphoneAddict,

 Care to give us any weekend teasers your upcoming, much anticipated XM5 review? I'm looking at opamp upgrades (I've got the stock OPA134s) and I'm really curious how that AD8397 sounds cf. the OPA134s.




_

 


 I posted one teaser last week, but with all the crazyness trying to get 3 kids ready to fly on vacation Tuesday before Xmas I will be lucky to get the review with stock opamps before we go.


----------



## slwiser

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't understand the question. You are using "Mobile" capitalized and I don't know what the Mobile is?

 As for the TTVJ Portable Millett Hybrid question, I have not tried them together yet. I'll have to do that later. In my Millett review I noted the TTVJ was very much like a desktop amp.

 EDIT - I figured it out - "Mobile" is the Nuforce Icon. The TTVJ is a forward amp like the Mobile, with good treble, so it might make the ESW9 sound more similar to the ESW10 as well, all I know is that the Mobile sounds good with ESW10. I'll report back later on TTVJ._

 

Yes, you have it that it is the Nuforce Icon Mobile that I was talking about. I compared the the two ESW** headphones last night and this morning and they are much nearer each other than with any other amps that I have tried them with using the Icon Mobile. So, to me, your speculation is correct. I would like the TTVJ and Mobile compared if possible using the ESW10JPN. I have a TTVJ Millet portable coming as a loaner sometime over the next week or so from Todd.


----------



## Discover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_3. D3 doesn't have crossfeed._

 

That's why I asked 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I am interested in the difference, if there is any, between the Move and iBasso D3 due to the (missing) crossfeed.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Discover* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's why I asked 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I am interested in the difference, if there is any, between the Move and iBasso D3 due to the (missing) crossfeed._

 

The D3 is a more open and spacious sounding amp like the Pico, while the 2MOVE is even more forward to my ears than the Predator. 

 So to my ears the 2MOVE doesn't benefit from the crossfeed as much as other amps that present a wider more sizable soundstage (like Micro Amp or XM5). Crossfeed always seems to make the stage narrower to me, although the Meier crossfeed is fairly subtle. So there is the paradox, the amp that needs it the least is the amp that has it. 

 I'm finding the adjustable crossfeed on the XM5 to be more to my liking because it can be adjusted from almost stereo to almost mono. But, I need to check and verify if the XM5 version is a time-delayed channel-mix where the left signal takes longer to bleed over to the right ear, and visa versa. 

 Nevertheless, to me the D3 and other amps are fine without crossfeed, including not having to use it with the XM5 or Micro Amp.


----------



## oogabooga

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm finding the adjustable crossfeed on the XM5 to be more to my liking because it can be adjusted from almost stereo to almost mono. But, I need to check and verify if the XM5 version is a time-delayed channel-mix where the left signal takes longer to bleed over to the right ear, and visa versa. _

 

I asked James at PD if the crossfeed introduces a delay or phase-change in the music that is being "crossfed" into the other ear, or is it a mono/stereo mix?

 His answer:
  Quote:


 There is no phase change or delay in the crossfeed. 
 

I've compared the crossfeed on the XM5 to that via Canz3D (software implementation, which does the time-delay) and found that the Canz3D sounded a bit more like loudspeakers in that it moved the soundstage in front of me. However, I did notice a slight change in the music as well - it just sounded different. I can't really quantify it, except to say that the mids and trebles sounded a touch muddy. Sorry, but I've never heard a Meier or Headroom crossfeed, so I can't comment on those.

 IMHO XM5's implementation doesn't change the character of the sound in any way, which I think is a big plus. I've found that I've left the XM5's crossfeed on over the past few days, and it's made for a more pleasing listening experience (my IEMs spend about 8 hours in my ears each day, and this Xfeed alleviates the harshness of having a techno beat come out of only one ear!)

 Now I'll apologize if I use the wrong terminology, but to sum it up, I think that Canz3D sounds more like loudspeakers in front of me, in that it moves the soundstage forward, while the XM5 xfeed simply collapses/narrows the soundstage a bit, while retaining the "in the head" soundstage typical of headphones.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *slwiser* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes, you have it that it is the Nuforce Icon Mobile that I was talking about. I compared the the two ESW** headphones last night and this morning and they are much nearer each other than with any other amps that I have tried them with using the Icon Mobile. So, to me, your speculation is correct. I would like the TTVJ and Mobile compared if possible using the ESW10JPN. I have a TTVJ Millet portable coming as a loaner sometime over the next week or so from Todd._

 

I had to unpack one of my travel bags to do this (going on vacation), but I have tried ESW10JPN with the TTVJ portable Millett hybrid as you requested, using the Headstage USB DAC cable on my Macbook and switching back and forth between the TTVJ and Nuforce.

 In a sense the TTVJ is similar to the Nuforce in it's forwardness and presentation - but the TTVJ adds to it with a wider soundstage, more powerful bass and presence, and a warmer richer sound overall. Although there is no lack of treble or darkness, the DAC cable/TTVJ combo is also slightly less detailed than the Nuforce, while with the iMod as the source their level of detail is closer. I still prefer the Millett combo a good bit more, but it's a $450 amp + $40 DAC vs a $99 DAC amp combo, so it's more of an apples vs oranges kinda thing. 

 As I've said before, the TTVJ sounds more like a nice desktop tube hybrid amp than a portable. I mostly use TTVJ with my 5.5G iMod and piccolino LOD by stevenkelby (or ALO Vcap dock) if I am traveling with full-size headphones for a couple of days. It is also often used in my bedside rig in place of the Headfive, Travagans Red or Micro Amp. For this upcoming Xmas vacation to Maui I was planning on bringing the Predator and XM5, with Westone 3 and ESW10. Comparing to the TTVJ tonight, the XM5 and Predator are both similar to the refinement, warmth and richness of the TTVJ, but with smaller size, longer battery life and a built-in DAC - so better suited to traveling for several days. 

 With the ESW10, the XM5 is almost a SS version of the TTVJ Millett's sound and power, but I can tell there is a slight difference in tonality. For those that want a more romantic euphonic or lush sound with ESW10 or Grados the TTVJ is excellent, but obviously there are SS amps that can come close, while doing it with more detail and battery life. Incidentally, I am only using the XM5 or TTVJ at 10-11 o'clock on the volume knob (XM5 low gain, Predator is packed up again).


----------



## slwiser

^Thanks for the comparison..somewhat reading between the lines it would sound like the XM5 and Predator are almost equal in performance.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *oogabooga* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I asked James at PD if the crossfeed introduces a delay or phase-change in the music that is being "crossfed" into the other ear, or is it a mono/stereo mix?

 His answer:


 I've compared the crossfeed on the XM5 to that via Canz3D (software implementation, which does the time-delay) and found that the Canz3D sounded a bit more like loudspeakers in that it moved the soundstage in front of me. However, I did notice a slight change in the music as well - it just sounded different. I can't really quantify it, except to say that the mids and trebles sounded a touch muddy. Sorry, but I've never heard a Meier or Headroom crossfeed, so I can't comment on those.

 IMHO XM5's implementation doesn't change the character of the sound in any way, which I think is a big plus. I've found that I've left the XM5's crossfeed on over the past few days, and it's made for a more pleasing listening experience (my IEMs spend about 8 hours in my ears each day, and this Xfeed alleviates the harshness of having a techno beat come out of only one ear!)

 Now I'll apologize if I use the wrong terminology, but to sum it up, I think that Canz3D sounds more like loudspeakers in front of me, in that it moves the soundstage forward, while the XM5 xfeed simply collapses/narrows the soundstage a bit, while retaining the "in the head" soundstage typical of headphones._

 

Yes, I can see you are right. The Meier Headfive's cross-feed here right now is probably the best and most correct one (don't have 2MOVE). The Headroom Micro Amp is close to the Meier but changes the tonality more than Meier so it seems more rolled off in the highs. The XM5 has no change in frequency response but narrows the soundstage for listing to some music like the Beatles, or older rock. I don't have the Lyrix to test it's crossfeed because I loaned it out 3 weeks ago, and the Xin SMIII was sold long ago.

 Like I said, I typically don't use crossfeed anyways.


----------



## oogabooga

Larry (or anyone else for that matter), since you're using a Mac and an XM5 as well, I need to ask you - have you experienced ANY problems with the USB DAC? I've been having this intermittent static problem where my music suddenly converts to very loud static, and the only way to fix the problem is to disconnect/reconnect the XM5. The problem occurs about once/twice a day


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *slwiser* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_^Thanks for the comparison..somewhat reading between the lines it would sound like the XM5 and Predator are almost equal in performance._

 

Boy, you ARE good. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 There are differences in their sound, but the Predator, XM5 and TTVJ portable Millett hybrid sound like they are from the same family; while the XM5 and TTVJ could be brothers and the Predator is the cousin. Likewise, the Pico, D3 and D2 Viper with LM4562/LM6172 sound like they are in the same family. The Nuforce sounds like it is in the Meier Family with Headsix and 2MOVE.

 Also, the Predator is in medium gain at 11:00 o'clock while the XM5 is in low gain at 11 o'clock for similar volumes, and TTVJ has a fixed gain.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *oogabooga* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Larry (or anyone else for that matter), since you're using a Mac and an XM5 as well, I need to ask you - have you experienced ANY problems with the USB DAC? I've been having this intermittent static problem where my music suddenly converts to very loud static, and the only way to fix the problem is to disconnect/reconnect the XM5. The problem occurs about once/twice a day 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Nope, nothing like that at all.


----------



## slwiser

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Boy, you ARE good. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 There are differences in their sound, but the Predator, XM5 and TTVJ portable Millett hybrid sound like they are from the same family; while the XM5 and TTVJ could be brothers and the Predator is the cousin. Likewise, the Pico, D3 and D2 Viper with LM4562/LM6172 sound like they are in the same family. The Nuforce sounds like it is in the Meier Family with Headsix and 2MOVE.

 Also, the Predator is in medium gain at 11:00 o'clock while the XM5 is in low gain at 11 o'clock for similar volumes, and TTVJ has a fixed gain._

 

Now this is an instructive piece of information, thanks.


----------



## kostalex

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The D3 is a more open and spacious sounding amp like the Pico, while the 2MOVE is even more forward to my ears than the Predator._

 

Larry, I bet you know how unreliable the audio memory is. It seems that it lets you down with 2Move. I had compared Pico, D3 and Move recently:
Move was most spacious.
D3 was not even close to Move in terms of SQ (though you rated it higher).
The choice between Pico and Move is a matter of taste and synergy. I choose Move over Pico with ER-4P/S, PK1, HD650. I prefer more neutral Pico with bass heavy cans like D2000, DT990 or DT770.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kostalex* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Larry, I bet you know how unreliable the audio memory is. It seems that it lets you down with 2Move. I had compared Pico, D3 and Move recently:
Move was most spacious.
D3 was not even close to Move in terms of SQ (though you rated it higher).
The choice between Pico and Move is a matter of taste and synergy. I choose Move over Pico with ER-4P/S, PK1, HD650. I prefer more neutral Pico with bass heavy cans like D2000, DT990 or DT770.
_

 

I originally rated the 2MOVE higher than the Pico, but in my D3 review explained why I moved the 2MOVE below the Pico in November - because (1) I was getting used to the Pico's sound and space, and (2) because, and I quote, "Auditory memory fades as I haven't listened to the 2MOVE since April, but my musical tastes are changing and close up and intimate isn't doing it for me as much anymore."

 I just went back and looked at my comments about soundstage in my 2MOVE review from 3/26/08, where I felt the Pico soundstage was biggest, followed by Predator then 2MOVE. Although I did say the 2MOVE was spacious (like you), I felt the soundstage wasn't as big vs the others: _"The 2MOVE was more forward and up front than the Predator or Pico, which didn't help the soundstage with Handel's Messiah when listening via the RS-1. The 2MOVE still has excellent ambience and detail of the large venue, but you are definitely closer to the choir. The Predator's bigger soundstage was itself beaten by the Pico by a small margin, which produced a more 3D Cathedral space. With one small studio recording (Tsuyoshi Yamamoto on FIM XRCD), I can almost hear the drums and cymbals echo off the walls with the 2MOVE, but that coloration does not appear to be there with any of the other amps."_

 Anyway, you are right in that auditory memory doesn't last long, as my notes show the 2MOVE had excellent air and space or ambience, and in my D3 review I mistakenly said the opposite was the case . But I also had written that the Predator had a bigger soundstage, and the Pico soundstage was even bigger - and I have to rely on those notes when my memory fades. So I made an error in my D3 review and said the 2MOVE had less air and space when it didn't, because I didn't go back and read the notes. 

 I also said in the 2MOVE review that it was too close to call the winner based on sound alone. _"Having picked out the areas where one amp excels over the others, or falls behind the others, it makes it even harder to rank the top 4 amps. The Predator, 2MOVE and modified D2 sound the closest to each other's sound signature or flavor. While the Pico and stock D2 sound the closest to each other's sound signature. A similar sound signature is a "reminds me of" NOT a "sounds just like". That puts the amps in 2 camps, yet makes all the rankings fall between a 9.4/10 and a 10/10, and in my opinion too close to call based on sound alone."_ I know synergy is important, and that's why I include more and more headphones in my reviews now. 

 So, when I was reviewing the D3, with the low resistance NiMH similar to eneloops, and 323 hours of burn-in I was finding it very close to the Pico but slightly behind it. If I hadn't changed things around DUE TO PREFERENCES AND FAULTY MEMORY which I admitted was the cause, the rank would have remained as before and 2MOVE and D3 would swap places as below (like it was prior to the 11/1 review).

 1. Predator
 2. D2 Viper rolled opamps
 3. Pico (tie)
 3. HR Micro Stack (tie)
 3. 2MOVE (tie)
 4. D3 Python

 I am going to contact Jan about buying a B-stock 2MOVE for keeping around for my review, and I may end up putting the 2MOVE back where it belongs.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kostalex* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Larry, I bet you know how unreliable the audio memory is. It seems that it lets you down with 2Move. I had compared Pico, D3 and Move recently:
Move was most spacious.
D3 was not even close to Move in terms of SQ (though you rated it higher).
The choice between Pico and Move is a matter of taste and synergy. I choose Move over Pico with ER-4P/S, PK1, HD650. I prefer more neutral Pico with bass heavy cans like D2000, DT990 or DT770.
_

 

I have thought about this a bit. Until I hear the 2MOVE again I am leaving it ranked where it was before in relation to the the Predator or rolled D2 Viper and Pico. As such, the D3 has to be below the 2MOVE since it was below the Pico. I have emailed Jan about buying a 2MOVE of my own.

 Updated in 1st and second post:

*I ERRONIOUSLY MOVED THE 2MOVE DOWN TO 4TH BECAUSE I JUST COULDN'T REMEMBER HOW GOOD IT IS AFTER MANY MONTHS APART FROM IT. Here is the ranking which has BEEN RESTORED TO KEEP THE 2MOVE TIED WITH PICO till I re-review the 2MOVE - see comments included if you haven't read the entire review:*

*1. RSA Predator* (good bass and soundstage, more body, organic, full. Seems to do well with all my headphones, and not bad with any). Gobs of power with RS-1, D2000 and Edition 9 but Could use a little more power with HD600 - very underpowered for AKG K240M 600 ohm.
*2. D2 with rolled opamps* (LTC6241HV/LMH6622 sounds like 98% of the Predator with 7 hour battery life. LM6172/THS4032 - balanced, not too forward, sweet/magical Saxophone, almost mesmerizing like Predator. With my IEM I found it sounded best with the LM6172 and THS4032 swapped. This second opamp configuration was good with all my IEM, and not bad with my full size phones, except the RS-1 seem a bit bright and the Proline 2500 lacked fullness in the mids.) For the past 6 weeks I have been using the LM4562 main/LM6172 ground, and this works very well for full size and IEM - very open and spacious and detailed without losing any warmth or rich tone. And battery life was bumped from 7 hours to 17 hours!
*3. PICO* (smooth and transparent without coloration, Great DAC, won the bad mastering Diana Krall test, but nothing special with piano and sax like the others, too neutral as an amp - how is that possible, maybe not because there is something around 2Khz that is not right with RS-1. It really seems to shine with my re-cabled Denon D2000, Klipsch Image, Freq Show customs, but doesn't sound bad with anything but my Proline 2500). Over the past 2-3 months the Pico has really been growing on me, and it no longer seems to lack warmth with my RS-1 or other headphones. The DAC's space and ambience and soundstage still stand out as slightly superior, as before.
*3. Headroom 2006 Micro Stack Portable* (a twin to the Pico's sound but better with piano, too BIG and out of production, with crossfeed mids are richer/warmer but highs rolled off).
*3. 2MOVE* (sweet mids and saxophone, midbass hmmm, failed the bad mastering diana krall test, great detail and air, too large and heavy) Auditory memory fades as I haven't listened to the 2MOVE since April, but my musical tastes are changing and too close up and intimate isn't doing it for me as much anymore, while the top tier amps balance that line better.
*4. D3 Python* (very sensitive to RF interference from Cheyenne Mountain and NORAD. The sound is very close to the 3rd place amps, and I like it very much, being only slightly less smooth in the upper mids with Grado than Pico, and very slightly less micro-detail in ambient cues and complex passages)
*5. Nuforce Icon Mobile* (More forward than D2 Boa and closer to Vivid V1 and 2MOVE in that regard, has good synergy with Westone 3, Klipsch X10, Nuforce NE-7M, Denon C700, ATH-ESW10, D2000, and Edition 9 - sounded nice with HD600 but a bit under powered with HD600 and not worth trying with 600 ohm AKG K240M. With RS-1 occasionally had a similar upper mids coloration like Vivid V1 and sometimes needed to switch to the flats to enjoy them more, so not first choice for Grado but would not avoid the amp because one owns Grados, good midrange detail but not as full and rich sounding as the top tier amps above except with D2000, Edition 9 and Westone 3 which bring that to the table on their own)
*5. D2 Boa* (Sonic signature slightly warmer than the Pico, and between the D2 Viper with LM6172 in the main amp (warmer) vs THS4032 in the main amp and LM6172 in the ground (cooler). Timbre and tone was good, and lower mids were slightly forward and rich, and highs had slightly less extension than the D2 Viper or Pico and Predator (in that order). The sense of space with live performances was superior with the D2 Viper, Pico and Predator (in that order), and LESS with the Boa at 300 hours of burn-in. However, the Boa did open up and gain more air and ambience on the level of the other top ranked amps by 575 hours of burn-in. Listening to Diana Krall "Girl in the Other Room" (Temptation and other songs) seemed to indicate more of a low mids hump than the other amps, which also caused problems with Pianos and realism on that CD. The problems reproducing this particular CD remained after 575 hours of burn-in, however with other CD's like Jazz at the Pawnshop, Handel Messiah and Tsuyoshi Yamamoto the D2 Boa demonstrated improved transparency and realism with the extra burn-in. And with other music it seems the bass extension is slightly less than the others in the top ranks, but by 575 hours of burn-in (with my RS-1) the 16Hz audio tones on Binks Audio Test CD were clearly audible, and the volume of the 20Hz tone caught me by surprise, while 25Hz was a little disorienting! With over 800 hours the lower mids hump is less noticeable with female and male vocals now, but the middle mids and upper mids now seem to be more withdrawn instead.
*6. D1 with rolled opamps* (AD797 main/LM6643 buffer/LT6234 DAC - powerful, punchy, energetic, alive - not as bright as AD743/6643/6241. The D2 Boa moved up a little with more burn-in, but it wasn't quite good enough to rise up to a 3rd place tie. So the modded D1 and everything else had to move down a slot. The D1 via USB isn't as good as via optical, which is why it is not tied with the D2 Boa after the Boa improved with extended burn-in. With optical input would beat the Boa easily. 
*7. Vivid Technology V1* (very good synergy with HD600 and AKG K240M 600 ohm, nice and fun with Edition 9 and Klipsch Image X10, acceptable with RS-1 IF switching to flats but bowls are not recommended, unacceptable with my Freq Show but not the amp's fault. DAC with slightly more micro-detal than stock D1 via USB or Headstage Lyrix, slightly less than either D2 Viper/Boa or the other amps. The most forward of all the amps. Can be near 3rd place with HD600 and Edition 9 or 2nd with K240M, but 8th place with Grado RS-1 and bowls and last with Freq Show)
*8. D2 stock* - tied (thin in the middle, neutral with good bass - it was sound signature and power but not level of detail that held it back with the stock opamps.) Sounds good with Freq Show and most of my IEM, fairly good with HD600 and Edition 9 but lacks power, not bad with RS-1 but can't properly drive AKG K240M 600 ohm. Sounds better with re-cabled modded ATH-AD900 than the Boa or V1.
*8. Lyrix* (good frequency balance, DAC lacking details and air vs the others, but the amp is great with analog input.)
*9. D1 stock opamps* (put AD823/NE5532/AD8616 back in right before I shipped it back for the 2-3db channel imbalance, too edgy and bright and distant. Very close to 7th as a DAC/Amp because the DAC is so good it makes up for the frequency response issues. Clearly 8th if only using analog input. NOTE - my V1 opamps were from the initial run, and iBasso updated the opamps to V2 in November 07 to make it better than Lyrix.)

 I should note that any of these amps are very pleasing sounding.


----------



## Skylab

Larry, you can borrow my 2Move any time you want. I keep it around as a reference, but I don't use it much - my main portable amp is the iQube. While my experience with "Nick20" stealing my Caliente has meant I almost never loan equipment out, you and MrArroyo are exceptions due to the fact that you do such great reviewing work AND have borrowed and returned equipment to me before


----------



## ZoNtO

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Larry, you can borrow my 2Move any time you want. I keep it around as a reference, but I don't use it much - my main portable amp is the iQube. While my experience with "Nick20" stealing my Caliente has meant I almost never loan equipment out, you and MrArroyo are exceptions due to the fact that you do such great reviewing work AND have borrowed and returned equipment to me before 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I read about that in another thread recently, that sucks man.... I'm sorry about all that. You guys really are awesome for all you contribute to the forums though and especially how much time you take to listen and write reviews and also respond to the endless tide of annoying PMs (mine included.)

 Larry hope all goes well with your family vacation and such this week, I think that your XM5 review is going to be my late-Christmas/early-New-Years present that will go perfect with my diymod coming up.

 Thanks again!


----------



## mrarroyo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Larry, you can borrow my 2Move any time you want. I keep it around as a reference, but I don't use it much - my main portable amp is the iQube. While my experience with "Nick20" stealing my Caliente has meant I almost never loan equipment out, you and MrArroyo are exceptions due to the fact that you do such great reviewing work AND have borrowed and returned equipment to me before 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Thanks for the vote of confidence. BTW, if you want to borrow the original SR71. iBasso P3, iBasso D3, or the MiniBox-E+ just let me know. I do not mention the References (2) because they are out on loan w/ Aaron in NYC.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Larry, you can borrow my 2Move any time you want. I keep it around as a reference, but I don't use it much - my main portable amp is the iQube. While my experience with "Nick20" stealing my Caliente has meant I almost never loan equipment out, you and MrArroyo are exceptions due to the fact that you do such great reviewing work AND have borrowed and returned equipment to me before 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I just sent Jan money for a 2MOVE of my own. Thanks anyway!


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

I also offered to loan Sky the D3 and D2 Boa and Icon and V1...


----------



## jamato8

Wait until you hear the P-51.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wait until you hear the P-51._

 

Most of my interest lately lies with amps that incorporate a DAC.


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Most of my interest lately lies with amps that incorporate a DAC._

 

Wait until you hear the 51 in combination with a dac.


----------



## YtseJamer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wait until you hear the 51 in combination with a dac._

 

x2


----------



## Skylab

Thanks Larry and Miguel. After the Holidays I am going to tackle the SR71A and D3 if you guys are still willing


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Do you also want to review the D2 Boa along with the D3 Python, since it is still a current product even though it is a little below the D3? 

 What about the vividaudiotech.com V1 or Nuforce Icon Mobile?

 I will be leaving town tomorrow till Friday the 2nd, so I either ship now or ship then...


----------



## 64bit

Does any of the portable amplifier reviewed here support the 24bits 96kHz standard, which is supported on Creative Audigy and higher soundcard? I intend to play HDCD on my computer with one of these amplifier/DAC.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *64bit* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Does any of the portable amplifier reviewed here support the 24bits 96kHz standard, which is supported on Creative Audigy and higher soundcard? I intend to play HDCD on my computer with one of these amplifier/DAC._

 

None.


----------



## somestranger26

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *64bit* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Does any of the portable amplifier reviewed here support the 24bits 96kHz standard, which is supported on Creative Audigy and higher soundcard? I intend to play HDCD on my computer with one of these amplifier/DAC._

 

You'll have a tough time finding any portable amps with a dac beyond 48kHz, and they would probably be prohibitively expensive. Unless you have a really fine tuned ear and high end cans I doubt you'll notice the difference anyways.


----------



## oogabooga

I think the Pico has a 24/96 DAC - not sure if it accepts a 24/96 input or it just upsamples 16/48 to 24/96


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

I spent most Sunday using the XM5 with Macbook and Denon D2000 (woodied re-cabled) and loving it. Then I switched to my Freq Show triple driver customs, and the XM5 is the first amp to really make the Freq Show sound very good. I don't know why, but they are a match made in heaven and I've been looking for something to make the Freq Show sound as good as my Livewires for months. Before they were only slightly better than an Image X10 and not as good as a Triple.fi either (which I thought the Image also beat).

 I have to spend more time with RS-1, Edition 9 and HD600 before we leave at noon the 23rd for winter vacation, and I'll have to finish my review there (with my IEM's and ATH-ESW10JPN. Bad timing and all having just finished burn-in on Sunday right before we fly out. Worst case scenario, the review is done not this weekend but the next. So far, I do feel I'll be putting it in the top tier of portable USB DAC amps along with Predator, Pico and 2MOVE.


----------



## melomaniac

hm... I still haven't convinced myself that I need to bring the Pico on my winter vacation. the tomahawk will do just fine on the plane, and I think it'll probably do for another week in between flights. odd, that - since I truly do love the Pico at home.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

On my vacation I'm bringing my Predator and XM5 for their longer battery life, and that the XM5 has a shut-off timer so I can fall asleep listening and not run the battery down.

 Plus, the Pico is so critical to being the DAC for my Stax O2/GES rig that I can't be without it for months while waiting on a replacement if I lose mine.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Hardly getting any listening done here, as my wife is just keeping us too busy. I'm exhausted.


----------



## GreatDane

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hardly getting any listening done here, as my wife is just keeping us too busy. I'm exhausted._

 

Sounds like you're having fun. I'm looking forward to your final review on the XM5 but that will be in due time. 

 Until I get a SE cable for my HD650 my 325i is my only other full size to use with my iPod/XM5 combo. I don't think I've enjoyed my 325i as much as I have the past few days. My XM5 has only about 30~35 hours so far but it's sounding great. The XM5 is very exciting for me. The features makes it a very versatile amp. I've just put down the 325i to give my ER4 time to shine.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

I am back, and working on the XM5 review...


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

PS: I got the B-Stock 3MOVE that I bought, which was a demo returned by one of Jan's customers. It sounds already burned-in, but Jan recommends 100-150 hours for burn-in so i will do that much anyway.

 Later I will compare it to the Predator, Pico, and XM5 while my D3 and D2 Boa and Nuforce are with Skylab. So far it sounds a little more forward than the XM5 but both are very good with my woodied recabled D2000. These two amps also have the exact same DAC.


----------



## ZoNtO

Thanks for the updates and can't wait for your official reviews/comparisons with the XM5 and 3Move!


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ZoNtO* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks for the updates and can't wait for your official reviews/comparisons with the XM5 and 3Move! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

My writeup is well under way, and is longer than it needs to be, as usual. (so far 6.5 pages in MS Word with 1" margins all around).


----------



## NeObliviscaris

hpa do u think a pico wud pair up well with hd600s?


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *FeedMeTrance* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_hpa do u think a pico wud pair up well with hd600s?_

 

Yeah the Pico is fairly good with them for a portable amp 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 With the review I am going to post soon, I did spend some time with HD600 on the Pico, Predator, XM5 and 3MOVE, so keep an eye out for that soon.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Review added to second half of post #2 (post #1 full)

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/3947073-post2.html

 I will try opamp rolling later, but wanted to get this up now since it is so long.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

It is 3 AM and I cannot stop listening to the XM5 with Edition 9. Help!


----------



## uberburger101

No cure for good music.


----------



## mrarroyo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It is 3 AM and I cannot stop listening to the XM5 with Edition 9. Help!_

 

I will help you my friend! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Ship both to me and you will be able to sleep. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Pd: Do not forget to include the original boxes and stuff included by their respective manufacturers.


----------



## GreatDane

Very good job Larry. 

 I noticed that you mention listening with the crossfeed _set by default_. I don't remember how mine was set, I instantly began turning it to full mono to hear that and then moving it to minimum. I prefer to leave it at that minimum setting (full counter clockwise).

 At this setting it is a very subtle but very effective. I used to own a Porta Corda MkIII-USB and I thought the crossfeed was excellent. I can only assume that the current Meier amps use the same circuit.

 I currently have a Corda Cross-1 crossfeed which I use with my main rig for comparison. The XM5 crossfeed is equally effective for me although I haven't done any critical testing between the two.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mrarroyo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I will help you my friend! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Ship both to me and you will be able to sleep. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Pd: Do not forget to include the original boxes and stuff included by their respective manufacturers. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

No worries mate! The solution was to fall asleep with the music...


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GreatDane* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Very good job Larry. 

 I noticed that you mention listening with the crossfeed set by default. I don't remember how mine was set, I instantly began turning it to full mono to hear that and then moving it to minimum. I prefer to leave it at that minimum setting (full counter clockwise).

 At this setting it is a very subtle but very effective. I used to own a Porta Corda MkIII-USB and I thought the crossfeed was excellent. I can only assume that the current Meier amps use the same circuit.

 I currently have a Corda Cross-1 crossfeed which I use with my main rig for comparison. The XM5 crossfeed is equally effective for me although I haven't done any critical testing between the two._

 

Actually I did back off the default setting a bit for the review - as default the flat part of the xfeed knob was at about 2 o'clock and now it is turned down to 12 o'clock.

 Basically the XM5 Xfeed still improved the extreme L-R spread program material to reduce the "pressure" effect on the opposite ear, but the effect was a little different as I described in my review. I still cannot listen to that CD without crossfeed, but with the XM5 and 3MOVE or Micro Amp I can. The XM5 seems to bring the far left/right instruments closer to center stage, but they also feel closer to the listener to me; while the 3MOVE brings the far left/right instruments around closer to the center but not closer to the listener. This sounds just like my Headfive crossfeed as well. My Headroom Micro Amp crossfeed is closer to the Meier crossfeed but unlike the Meier which does not change the tonality or frequency response, the Headroom's sound seems to get warmer and slightly more rolled off.

 I have the Corda Cross kit, but haven't sourced the parts list or case for it yet, and will need to hire someone to assemble it for me.


----------



## mrarroyo

Larry, have you ever had an opportunity to listen to the O1 Amp/Dac? It is not a portable/transportable because it needs to be powered from the mains but it is a very nice sounding unit. At one time it sold for $299 and later it was re-labeled as the Octavart Amp/Dac.

 If interested let me know and I will send it your way.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mrarroyo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Larry, have you ever had an opportunity to listen to the O1 Amp/Dac? It is not a portable/transportable because it needs to be powered from the mains but it is a very nice sounding unit. At one time it sold for $299 and later it was re-labeled as the Octavart Amp/Dac.

 If interested let me know and I will send it your way._

 

I appreciate the offer. I need to take a break right now, and also decide if I will start to include desktop DAC amps or not. Right now I want to wait a while and just breathe before I do the next DAC amp. 

 I'm a little frustrated by my difficulty ranking the top amps, because depending on the headphone and music, any of the amps could switch places between 1st, 2nd and 3rd. If you asked me to get rid of any of the amps in 1st - 3rd, other than the D2 Viper that was redundant I would be unable to pick. The Pico and Micro DAC are my best small portable DACs, the Predator is my smallest and favorite amp but not favorite DAC, but the XM5 and 3MOVE really stand out with synergy with certain headphones or music.


----------



## ekim

Hi Larry - HeadphoneAddict,

 Thank you for the excellent reviews on the portable DAC/Amp's. I have a HD-580, and recently purchased and am enjoying a V1 from Vivid Technology based on your your reviews. 

 In response to your "decide if I will start to include desktop DAC amps or not" in your Jan 4 posting, it would be great if could review desktop DAC Amps and share with us your experience and opinion. 

 Please, include CA DACMagic among your selections, and keep up the good work ... thanks/e


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ekim* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi Larry - HeadphoneAddict,

 Thank you for the excellent reviews on the portable DAC/Amp's. I have a HD-580, and recently purchased and am enjoying a V1 from Vivid Technology based on your your reviews. 

 In response to your "decide if I will start to include desktop DAC amps or not" in your Jan 4 posting, it would be great if could review desktop DAC Amps and share with us your experience and opinion. 

 Please, include CA DACMagic among your selections, and keep up the good work ... thanks/e_

 

I don't believe the DACMagic is a amp, I thought it was a DAC only. Desktop DAC/Amps would be like the Octavert 01, Travagans White (which is not here right now), Travagans Green, Nuforce Icon desktop, Apogee Mini-DAC and Duet, Lavry DA10, Benchmark DAC1, Glow Audio Amp One. I am just not ready to travel that route right now. Some I have now, some I could borrow, and some I have no way to get a hold of them.

 I did post my thoughts of the DACMagic in one of the two big DACMagic threads back in early November with occasional clarifications of what I heard later on in the thread (do a search). In a head to head comparison at the 11/1/087 Colorado head-fi meet, the DACMagic was a little below the Stello DA10 and Apogee mini-DAC in that is was a little softer on the attacks and a little more polite sounding (possibly an attempt to get it to sound more analog). There may be other comments about it that I can't remember. I did not get to compare it to the Pico as a DAC/pre-amp, but I feel the Pico is on the level of the Stello and Apogee as well. The DACMagic is no slouch, but it was just a little below the next step up in DACs. I would rank it higher than all the portable DAC's except for the Pico.


----------



## meemorize

Brilliant review! It's been invaluable getting my thoughts straight trying to find the right amp for me.

 The only one addition I would have liked to see would be a US$ amount at the time of testing to help those that have a certain 'dollar limit' choose theirs from the list.
 Of course this is me being lazy 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 I could of course just look up the prices online..

 Again. Great review(s). Many many thanks.


----------



## Hi-Fi'er

Thank you HeadphoneAddict,

 Because of your post of all the different amps, I was able to decide on the P-51 as one of the top performers and am more than happy with this amp! It's quality and sound is tuff to beat for the price it's in.

 Thank you for having an obsession as it made it easy for me!


----------



## aluren

great to see that the predator is still on top after all the new comer DACs.


----------



## ekim

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I would rank it (DACMagic) higher than all the portable DAC's except for the Pico._

 

Larry,

 While keeping your comments in mind, I placed an order for a DACMagic with a local dealer. Apparently, demands for DACMagic is very high everywhere and hard to get. My unit should be available for pickup within next 1-2 weeks.

 Your expert reviews and comments are very educational, and it is much appreciated ... cheers/e


----------



## oogabooga

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ekim* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I placed an order for a DACMagic with a local dealer._

 

Who'd you get it from in the T.?


----------



## ekim

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *oogabooga* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Who'd you get it from in the T.?_

 

Lockridge Hi-Fi in Markham. Ask for Yan (905.475.6300) and tell him that _Edward Kim_ sent you there. Hope, this helps.


----------



## oogabooga

Awesome, thanks Edward!


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

I have an iBasso D10 on the way for review - will keep you posted.


----------



## sadhanaputra

Wow.. Ibasso D10.. Another temptation.. Great.. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	










 Anyway, this is THE reference thread for those looking for portable (?) USB DAC.. I bought D2 Boa based on the reviews here, and I must say I'm not disappointed 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Thanks, HeadphoneAddict..


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

In this case, I am making an exception for the D10 and reviewing it with optical and USB DAC. 

 The iBasso D1 USB DAC was on the level or slightly above the Headstage USB DAC, but the optical DAC was well above the USB DAC. The D1 amp section could only match the Lyrix when the opamps were upgraded for almost $100.

 To keep them on a level playing field I ignored the optical DAC since more people have USB than Optical on their PC's, and I had reviewed it as an optical DAC in Jamato8 big D1 thread already (and Skylab also reviewed the optical DAC and found it better than the original MOVE when MOVE was by USB and D1 was by optical).


----------



## Anemone

somebody ship him a p51 to review!


----------



## Quaddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *909* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_thank goodness, it only got better for you (*funny we never hear negative burn-in attributes always positive*). anyway, color me a big time skeptic, but more power to you._

 

you heard of burn out?

 @larry, amazing, amazing reviews, such great content and layout, brilliant!


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Quaddy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_you heard of burn out?

 @larry, amazing, amazing reviews, such great content and layout, brilliant!_

 

Thanks!

 D10 arrived today, but I can't start listening and burning in for a couple more hours...


----------



## mrarroyo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks!

 D10 arrived today, but I can't start listening and burning in for a couple more hours..._

 

WUSS! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 get to work and have a 20 page report w/ graphs and pictures done by 10:00pm tonight! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	










 On a serious note I just took a quick listen (72 hour mark) and the D10 has a nice soundstage both in width and depth. I sure look forward to testing it at the 200 hour mark.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

I really like the D10 with my APS V3 cabled RS-1, after only 3 hours of burn-in. Like the D3, it sounds great right out of the box. Burn-in started about 4PM, so not this weekend but the next weekend I should have my review done with over 300 hours on it.

 It wasn't quite as good with the ESW10 yet, as those sound a little flat (but not lifeless) with the D10.


----------



## mrarroyo

Larry, when will you be op-amp rolling! Oh yeah, evil at its best.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Well, add my woodied re-cabled D2000 as a good match for the iBasso D10. I am really enjoying this amp, and it has less than 8 hours of burn-in so far.

 The USB DAC seems as good as the other iBassos, and the optical input is just a little more detailed and spacious like I found with the HR Micro DAC.

 With 292 more hours of burn-in to go and several opamps to try, I suspect THIS is going to be the best DAC/amp iBasso has ever made.


----------



## greenarrow

Hi Larry aka HeadphoneAddict,

 Just got myself a iBasso D2 Viper after reading your very informative article. My choice of getting this D2 is the rolling of opamps. Since I've a pair of lousy audiophile ears (senior citizen group), which opamps should I go for? My kind of music is from the 50's right up to the 70's.

 Also, which headphone should I upgrade from my Sennheiser R130 wireless?


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *greenarrow* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi Larry aka HeadphoneAddict,

 Just got myself a iBasso D2 Viper after reading your very informative article. My choice of getting this D2 is the rolling of opamps. Since I've a pair of lousy audiophile ears (senior citizen group), which opamps should I go for? My kind of music is from the 50's right up to the 70's.

 Also, which headphone should I upgrade from my Sennheiser R130 wireless?_

 

I answered this question a few minutes ago in the D3 review thread where you cross-posted it. I dug up my reply and post it in here for everyone else...

 With LM4562 in the main socket and LM6172 in the ground it sounds similar to the D3 and Pico. Battery life is the best at 17 hours with this. This was good with full size cans and IEM. Very clear and transparent, open and spacious, and balanced.

 With LTC6241HV in the main socket and LMH6655 (or was it the 6622) it sounds similar to the Predator. A little warmer and intimate, but not too forward. Oddly I was getting 7 hours out of the battery with this, which made no sense. Good with IEM and full size cans.

 With LM6172 in the main socket and THS4032 in the ground it sounds between the 2MOVE and Predator. Warm sounding with loads of power with full size cans, great bass with IEM. Battery life was just under 14 hours with this. Swapping those two opamps to THS4032 in the main socket with LM6172 in the ground has a similar sound to the 1st setup I listed but not quite as good with full size phones as it is with IEM. 

 It also sounds good with an LMH6622 in the main or ground, but not both. It's too warm and forward with two LM6172 as well.

 D2 Viper is an excellent amp and DAC, just not with the stock opamps.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

I have 55 hours on the D10 with stock opamps, and it is proving to be a very nice DAC/amp. 250 hours to go so I can start my review...


----------



## Infoseeker

Headphoneaddict see if you can get a demo product of Lyrix's successor; The Arrow.
 and review it! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I don't have any reviews, so I doubt I would have any luck if I tried to push my luck and request a demo sample.


----------



## jma790

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Infoseeker* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Headphoneaddict see if you can get a demo product of Lyrix's successor; The Arrow.
 and review it! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I don't have any reviews, so I doubt I would have any luck if I tried to push my luck and request a demo sample._

 

It's still "in production", so I doubt that Robert will be able to send any demos right now


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

I will ask him about it. I am enjoying the D10 very much, with about 250 hours on it I have to say it is a top tier amp, and probably their best so far. This weekend I will see if I have time to try more opamps and try to get to 300 hours by Monday to start my review.


----------



## sfmatt

From the arrow page:
 "Possibility to Insert DACs without Soldering". Now that is really interesting! After opamp rolling comes DAC rolling...


----------



## xcluded

Hi , just to check with you guys :

 when i connect the predator to my computer via USB , is the device charging via that USB cable as well ? 

 Thanks!


----------



## olblueyez

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *xcluded* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi , just to check with you guys :

 when i connect the predator to my computer via USB , is the device charging via that USB cable as well ? 

 Thanks!_

 

no


----------



## nocturnalsheet

eagerly waiting for larry's review of the D10 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 will be the moment of truth if i should upgrade from my D3 to the D10... 

 my wallet is crying for help


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nocturnalsheet* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_eagerly waiting for larry's review of the D10 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 will be the moment of truth if i should upgrade from my D3 to the D10... 

 my wallet is crying for help 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I can already tell you the upgrade is worth it. 

 I have passed my 300 hour mark set for burn-in Monday Morning; and so far listened with RS-1, D2000 and HD600, but have only compared it to the Predator since reaching the required burn-in hours. Listening to the D10 and Predator Via USB, and going back and forth between them, I was unable to tell any real differences in the sound other than the D10 has more power to drive the HD600. It was the middle of the night and I was tired, so I have several more days of listening and comparing to do between many of the amps and with many of my headphones. 

 As you know, the amplifier ranking can actually be a bit different depending on the headphones being used at the time, so I have to do detailed comparisons of multiple amps using multiple headphones and it is taking longer and longer with the more amps and headphones I have. With the D10 included, I still have 10 of the 13 amps that have been (or will be review) reviewed here! (minus Lyrix, D2 Viper and D1). I just can't listen to 7 or 8 headphones on 10 amps in quick succession so I can remember the previous combination's sound, so I have to make some compromises.

 I can narrow down the D10 comparisons to only vs the top tier amps where the D10 belongs, and I will be comparing it only to the top 4 DAC/amps that don't sound alike but were all the most enjoyable = Predator, Pico, 3MOVE and XM5. I can skip most of the others for a variety of reasons: I know where the D3 stands vs the Pico (almost the same but slightly less) and where the Micro DAC/Amp stands (pretty much the same as Pico). Although I probably will briefly compare the Micro DAC/Amp vs the D10 DAC/Amp with Optical input, but not with every headphone. I wont need to do a side by side with D2 Boa, Vivid V1 or Nuforce which are below the top tier for reasons mentioned in my reviews, although I may need to pull out the V1 with HD600 to see how the D10 rates, because the V1 is just so much fun with the HD600.

 I'll use my RS-1, D2000, HD600, Edition 9 and ESW10 as my full size phones (maybe the AKG K240M 600 ohm just to test power). I'll use my Westone 3, Phonak Audeo, Livewires (and maybe C700/NE-7M) as my IEM for the review. Lastly, I'll try the DAC line out vs Pico with driving my Woo GES/Stax O2 Mk1 rig as well, since that is how I use the Pico 90% of the time (I still like Pico just a little better as a DAC/Pre-amp feeding a full size amp more than as a headphone amp, and think it is very close to the Stello DA100 and Apogee mini-DAC in that setting).

 I am also going to try to TEASE APART ALL THE TIED AMPS IN 3RD PLACE if possible, and make my reasons known. In the most recent ranking I had restored the D2 Viper and 3MOVE back to their original 2nd and 3rd places, after hearing the Meier MOVE again and deciding that I was right the first time around (I had moved them due to fading audio memory). The only change that I made to the 1st - 3rd order was that I was enjoying the Pico and XM5 as much as the 3MOVE and brought them both up to 3RD place with the 3MOVE. While the Pico had a better DAC, the 3MOVE and XM5 with the PCM2702E(JAPAN) DAC have wonderful amplifier sections that make up for that in enjoyment).

 So, this will be taking some time to get it done.


----------



## xcluded

Just a question about burning in of the USB DAC amp 

 when i burn in them via the usb cable , is the DAC section that is burning in or both the DAC and AMP are concurrently burning in?

 thanks


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *xcluded* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just a question about burning in of the USB DAC amp 

 when i burn in them via the usb cable , is the DAC section that is burning in or both the DAC and AMP are concurrently burning in?

 thanks 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

Both, but for many the burn-in time is different. Ray Samuels recommended 200 hours through the Predator DAC but 600 hours for the amp, so after the 1st 200 hours you could switch to any analog source for the remainder of the burn-in.


----------



## swayne

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *xcluded* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just a question about burning in of the USB DAC amp 

 when i burn in them via the usb cable , is the DAC section that is burning in or both the DAC and AMP are concurrently burning in?

 thanks 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Depends on the amp.

 If, for instance, it's a D3 and you're using the line-out then the amp isn't on so is not being burned in.

 Steven.


----------



## greenarrow

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 With LTC6241HV in the main socket and LMH6655 (or was it the 6622) it sounds similar to the Predator. A little warmer and intimate, but not too forward. Oddly I was getting 7 hours out of the battery with this, which made no sense. Good with IEM and full size cans.
_

 

Just rolled by D2 with LTC6241HV for LR and the LMH6655 for ground socket and like what you've stated, the battery life is around 6 - 7 hrs. What other opamps you recommend to have a good warm bass, mid and high? 

 Can I connect the power supply when using the D2 Viper?


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *greenarrow* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just rolled by D2 with LTC6241HV for LR and the LMH6655 for ground socket and like what you've stated, the battery life is around 6 - 7 hrs. What other opamps you recommend to have a good warm bass, mid and high? 

 Can I connect the power supply when using the D2 Viper?_

 

LM6172 main and THS4032 ground - better battery life than what you tried above but still not the best battery (IIRC over 10 and less than 15), great powerful sound and bass, nice and warm with clear detailed mids and highs.

 LM4562 main and LM6172 ground - best battery life of 17 hours, offers a good balanced neutral and crisp spacious sound without losing the warmth (i.e. warmer than THS4032 main and LM6172 ground). This is what I settled on as what would stay in it, until jma790 begged me to sell it to him, and since I had the D3 and D2 Boa I agreed to sell it.


----------



## greenarrow

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_LM6172 main and THS4032 ground - better battery life than what you tried above but still not the best battery (IIRC over 10 and less than 15), great powerful sound and bass, nice and warm with clear detailed mids and highs.

 LM4562 main and LM6172 ground - best battery life of 17 hours, offers a good balanced neutral and crisp spacious sound without losing the warmth (i.e. warmer than THS4032 main and LM6172 ground). This is what I settled on as what would stay in it, until jma790 begged me to sell it to him, and since I had the D3 and D2 Boa I agreed to sell it._

 

Where can I purchase the opamps as mentioned? Can these opamps drive those high end headphones?


----------



## joincoolkidclub

so, Mr. Addict, for the cost conscious buyer, it seems as though the Nuforce is the logical option. Everything else costs 2+ times more. Is this a fair judgment?


----------



## xcluded

sorry , this question may seemed foolish but :

 i'm using predator. when i'm playing the music halfway , everything just stopped. *the power switch remained on but it is no longer red lit*. i off and on twice and got the same reaction. i took out from my pocket and put on the table to try again , this time the music just continue without stopping.

 is it the battery going to be running flat or some other problem?


----------



## jma790

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_LM6172 main and THS4032 ground - better battery life than what you tried above but still not the best battery (IIRC over 10 and less than 15), great powerful sound and bass, nice and warm with clear detailed mids and highs.

 LM4562 main and LM6172 ground - best battery life of 17 hours, offers a good balanced neutral and crisp spacious sound without losing the warmth (i.e. warmer than THS4032 main and LM6172 ground). This is what I settled on as what would stay in it, until jma790 *begged* me to sell it to him, and since I had the D3 and D2 Boa I agreed to sell it._

 

 Hey!!


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *greenarrow* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Where can I purchase the opamps as mentioned? Can these opamps drive those high end headphones?_

 

PM HiFlight and he can help you.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *joincoolkidclub* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_so, Mr. Addict, for the cost conscious buyer, it seems as though the Nuforce is the logical option. Everything else costs 2+ times more. Is this a fair judgment?_

 

No, the budget or mid priced amps like Nuforce, V1 and D2 Boa all have areas where to excel, and areas where they are not as good. You should use the comments in the review with regard to headphones and music types to make your decision.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *xcluded* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_sorry , this question may seemed foolish but :

 i'm using predator. when i'm playing the music halfway , everything just stopped. *the power switch remained on but it is no longer red lit*. i off and on twice and got the same reaction. i took out from my pocket and put on the table to try again , this time the music just continue without stopping.

 is it the battery going to be running flat or some other problem?
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

No idea. I would PM Ray.


----------



## vkvedam

Hey Larry, I am still waiting for your burnt review of the D10 Cobra.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *vkvedam* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hey Larry, I am still waiting for your burnt review of the D10 Cobra._

 

Still working on it.


----------



## Luca T

In your review can you consider even the amping's quality from the Hp-out plesae?!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Edit: maybe it's a stupid request but I have just Hp-out


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Luca T* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_In your review can you consider even the amping's quality from the Hp-out plesae?!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Edit: maybe it's a stupid request but I have just Hp-out_

 

I will listen to the analog input to make sure it doesn't suck (like the Stock D1) or make sure that it isn't substantially different from the DAC input.


----------



## xcluded

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_PM HiFlight and he can help you.



 No, the budget or mid priced amps like Nuforce, V1 and D2 Boa all have areas where to excel, and areas where they are not as good. You should use the comments in the review with regard to headphones and music types to make your decision.



 No idea. I would PM Ray._

 

i knew already. it was because it was really battery flat , not the amp problem.

 how dumb i am.


----------



## greenarrow

Just purchased a AKG K702 can. Can the D2 Viper supports this?


----------



## nocturnalsheet

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *greenarrow* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just purchased a AKG K702 can. Can the D2 Viper supports this?_

 

You get sound, but the K702 will not sing with the D2 Viper.


----------



## swayne

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *greenarrow* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just purchased a AKG K702 can. Can the D2 Viper supports this?_

 

Not well, I would get a mains powered amp. After all, you're not going to walk far with a pair of those on your head are you?

 I had a D3 then bought a Meier Arietta as my K701's were under powered.

 Steven.


----------



## greenarrow

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nocturnalsheet* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You get sound, but the K702 will not sing with the D2 Viper._

 

Which portable amps can sing with the Viper? How about a XM5 or Styleaudio Peridot?


----------



## swayne

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *greenarrow* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Which portable amps can sing with the Viper? How about a XM5 or Styleaudio Peridot?_

 

The D2 Viper _is_ a portable amp.

 Steven.


----------



## vkvedam

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I will listen to the analog input to make sure it doesn't suck (like the Stock D1) or make sure that it isn't substantially different from the DAC input._

 

Cool, that would be wonderful.


----------



## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *vkvedam* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hey Larry, I am still waiting for your burnt review of the D10 Cobra._

 

And I'm sure that post is going to make Larry drop what he was doing and finish it right up for you.


----------



## vkvedam

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_And I'm sure that post is going to make Larry drop what he was doing and finish it right up for you._

 

Seems that even you are interested in this particular review


----------



## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *vkvedam* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Seems that even you are interested in this particular review
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Not really. I'm just a fan of having people who spend a lot of time and effort doing reviews treated with a little courtesy when inquiring about the status of something they have said they would review.


----------



## vkvedam

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Not really. I'm just a fan of having people who spend a lot of time and effort doing reviews treated with a little courtesy when inquiring about the status of something they have said they would review._

 

I didn't mean to say that. I've got lot of patience, I am just a big fan of monster reviews. Even I am a big fan of your reviews as well.


----------



## Skylab

Cool, no worries. It's just been a bit of a sore spot lately 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Cheers.


----------



## vkvedam

Just a little out of topic, what's the website for S2 recabling for HFI-780s?
 Cheers...


----------



## Toe Tag

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*RANKING: I HATE THE RANKING BECAUSE NOW I HAVE TOO MANY 3RD PLACE TIES, ALTHOUGH FOR DIFFERENT REASONS, and I would not wish to part with any of the amps in 3rd or higher because they all have an area where they excel. *_

 

Perhaps you have considered, or would enjoy, a different ranking system, like Currawong used to rank some full size DACs. This would be more flexible as you continue to add DACs over the years. 
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_While it's hard to describe the degree of difference between the two units, if we rate an iPod at 5 and my Northstar at 100, the Nakamichi Dragon DAC gets 120, the Lavry DA-10 and Benchmark DAC 1 come in at 95, the Zero DAC (stock) would be about 60 and the Compass would be an 80._

 

Alternatively you could just give points for different aspects of their performance (bass, treble, flexibility, power efficiency...) and then users could weigh the rankings on their own depending on what's important to them. Its one way to break the tie for 3rd place.


----------



## Jaw007

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *swayne* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Not well, I would get a mains powered amp. After all, you're not going to walk far with a pair of those on your head are you?

 I had a D3 then bought a Meier Arietta as my K701's were under powered.

 Steven._

 

Meier Arietta is a very good choice.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Toe Tag* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Perhaps you have considered, or would enjoy, a different ranking system, like Currawong used to rank some full size DACs. This would be more flexible as you continue to add DACs over the years. 

 Alternatively you could just give points for different aspects of their performance (bass, treble, flexibility, power efficiency...) and then users could weigh the rankings on their own depending on what's important to them. Its one way to break the tie for 3rd place._

 

I would prefer to just have detailed descriptions of the sound and how they do with a variety of headphones, and let the users decide. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I keep thinking I will stop doing this after my last review, and then the next DAC/amp comes along that I cannot resist...


----------



## Luca T

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I would prefer to just have detailed descriptions of the sound and how they do with a variety of headphones, and let the users decide. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I keep thinking I will stop doing this after my last review, and *then the next DAC/amp comes along that I cannot resist*..._

 

Don't worry, don't resist and keep going with reviews!


----------



## vkvedam

Keep going Larry, keep going...
 Thanks for all your hard work.


----------



## Willie2

Skylab and HeadphoneAddict, as a newbie I cannot thank you enough for the time, expertise and effort that go into your reviews. You have helped me get started in this interesting and expensive hobby.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Much of my iBasso D10 review is typed up, but I need to go get some sleep and next time I have to start rolling opamps - especially to try the AD8066 main with AD708 buffers, and AD8656 main with bypassed buffers that HiFlight recommends. I am pretty sure I have all these left over from my D1 opamp rolling experiments. I will also try the AD8397, but I'm pretty sure the OPA2111 went away with the D1.


----------



## xcluded

Hi Mr Addict , wanted to ask you something about D10.

 between D10 and predator , which one has more synergy and power to drive better headphones?


----------



## joincoolkidclub

I noticed no mention of Beyer Dynamics. In considering the Nuforce Icon Portable, does the amp not provide enough drive for dt770's?


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *xcluded* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi Mr Addict , wanted to ask you something about D10.

 between D10 and predator , which one has more synergy and power to drive better headphones?




_

 

Maybe your native language is not english, so let me point you to my post right above yours ^ where I said my D10 review is not done yet and where I said what things I still need to do before it is done. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *joincoolkidclub* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I noticed no mention of Beyer Dynamics. In considering the Nuforce Icon Portable, does the amp not provide enough drive for dt770's?_

 

I do not have any Beyer headphones at this time. I have owned two pair of Darth Beyer V3 and each time I sold them because my re-cabled Denon D2000 sounded better. I don't know how efficient they are for the various models which have various impedances, but I imagine if the impedance is the 32 or 80 ohm they should be fine with the Nuforce.


----------



## Shimmer

Anyone know if it would be ok for me to plug my Logitech PC speakers into my Vivid V1? They are powered separately through an outlet.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Shimmer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Anyone know if it would be ok for me to plug my Logitech PC speakers into my Vivid V1? They are powered separately through an outlet._

 

That will be fine. Just use the V1 to control the volume. Turn the V1 volume down and turn up the active speakers most of the way (or if they are noisy in the background as high as you can without noise). Then with music playing turn the V1 up from zero to whatever volume sounds right. It can put out a lot of current but I don't know how much voltage it can put out since it is charged by 5v source, but it should work fine. It's a headphone out not a line out, which is why I tend to be cautious.


----------



## Shimmer

Thanks! Works great!


----------



## Willie2

I am new and trying to learn as much as I can. Yesterday I ran across an interesting site, theaudiocritic.com. To the extent he is correct, many of the folks on this site are wrong, or there are problems with his methodology and he is wrong. I would like to read some comments about this.


----------



## EFN

GO Larry GO!!!!


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Listening to D10 right now with the AD8066 opamp, and stock AD708 buffers. Very nice, and while slightly different than stock which I love, I could live with this too. Next will be the AD8397 opamp.

 This is what I have on hand, and need to see what HiFlight recommends or knows works

 Dual ch OpampsW/ D10

 LMH6655x2
 AD8397x2
 LM4562x2
 LME49720x2
 ISL55002x2
 LMH6622x1
 NE5532x1
 AD8066x1
 AD8656x1+2
 ADA4841-2x1+1
 AD746x1
 THS4032x1
 AD708x2

 Single Channel Opamps

 AD743x2
 NE5534x2
 OPA627x2


----------



## Luca T

What does "dual channel op-amp" and "single channel op-amp" mean?

 Which is the difference?

 Thanks


----------



## Gorthon

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Luca T* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What does "dual channel op-amp" and "single channel op-amp" mean?

 Which is the difference?

 Thanks
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Dual channel has two amplifiers (can amplify two signals)
 Single channel has one amplifer (can amplify only one singnal)


----------



## Luca T

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Gorthon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Dual channel has two amplifiers (can amplify two signals)
 Single channel has one amplifer (can amplify only one singnal)_

 

What do you mean for "two signal"?

 Which case do we need a double channel in?


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Luca T* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What do you mean for "two signal"?

 Which case do we need a double channel in?_

 

Some amps us a single dual-channel opamp to amplify left and right channel (D10). 

 Some amps use one single-channel opamp for left channel, and another single channel opamp for right (XM5).


----------



## mrarroyo

A dual op-amp can amplify both the left and right channels. Example the AD8620 or the AD8397.

 Single channel op-amps means you need two in order to amplify the left and right channels. Example the AD797 or the AD8610.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Still using the HD600 to listen tonight. I find the AD8397 in the D10 isn't bad either, but with the buffers bypassed it isn't as powerful as the Pico with AD8397 or even the 3MOVE. I switched to the AD8656 with bypassed buffers and it sounds very nice with some live music I had playing. I think that is a big jump up above the AD8397 in sound quality, and power seems similar. 

 I need to try these opamps with the AD708 buffers in place. I have two AD8397 and wonder what it will sound like if I use them as buffers. Same with my two LMH6643 and LMH6655 which I will try as buffers.


----------



## Luca T

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Some amps us a single dual-channel opamp to amplify left and right channel (D10). 

 Some amps use one single-channel opamp for left channel, and another single channel opamp for right (XM5)._

 

Ah channel, understood!

 Before I didn't understand well because other guy said "two signal" so I was figuring out how the amp could get two signal at the same time (what a stupid i'm)
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 So on the D10 that has only one socket for op-amp we can use just the dual channel op-amp! can't we?

 Bypassing the buffer do we have more output power? Which is the bad side? Less quality?


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Luca T* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ah channel, understood!

 Before I didn't understand well because other guy said signal so I was figuring out how the amp could get two signal at the same time (what a stupid i'm)
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 So on the D10 that has only one socket for op-amp we can use just the dual channel op-amp! can't we?_

 

Yes, and in this amp the two buffer sockets are actually for two dual-channel opamps, not a pair of singles (same as the D1). While XM5 uses two single-ch opamps for L/R and two single-ch opamps for buffers, the D10 uses one dual-ch for L/R and two dual-ch for buffers (three total).


----------



## Gberg

update coming tonight? or should I just go to bed


----------



## Luca T

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes, and in this amp the two buffer sockets are actually for two dual-channel opamps, not a pair of singles (same as the D1). While XM5 uses two single-ch opamps for L/R and two single-ch opamps for buffers, the D10 uses one dual-ch for L/R and two dual-ch for buffers (three total)._

 

I didn't understand well the feature of the buffer, and why sometimes you bypass it!?


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## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Gberg* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_update coming tonight? or should I just go to bed _

 

Not if I keep getting asked questions.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Luca T* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I didn't understand well the feature of the buffer, and why sometimes you bypass it!?
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

It lowers the output impedance and improves the amp's output current.


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## Luca T

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Not if I keep getting asked questions.


 It lowers the output impedance and improves the amp's output current._

 

So sorry, I stop with questions!

 Thanks a lot!


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## rvikul

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Not if I keep getting asked questions.
_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Luca T* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So sorry, I stop with questions!

 Thanks a lot!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Wow. Apparently you are forced to answer questions right away somehow?


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## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rvikul* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wow. Apparently you are forced to answer questions right away somehow?_

 

No. See, I let you wait.


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## HeadphoneAddict

*Feb 22, 2009 UPDATE - iBasso D10 REVIEW AND REVISED RANKING*:

 The 1st post in the thread is full - this was added to post #2 under the Nuforce and XM5: UPDATED 2/22 REVIEW 13 USB DAC amp - Predator, Pico, 2/3MOVE, D10 D3 D2 Viper/Boa D1, Lyrix, MicroAmp, Vivid V1, Nuforce, XM5 - Head-Fi: Covering Headphones, Earphones and Portable Audio

 The iBasso D10 is an evolutionary product that takes the best of what they have had to offer over the past year and a half, and all crammed into one little box. My first amp from them was the D1 back at the end of August 2007, which basically took the chipset of the Headroom Micro Stack (separate DAC and Amp) and put it all into one package at a fraction of the size. Yet it was still too big for true portable use. I enjoyed that amp and moved it to my bedside where I could use it as a DAC for my tube amp. And with new opamps it was a real contender, but only via optical (or coax) input and not as good via USB. With stock opamps the original D1 probably could be described as poor via analog input, although significantly improved with a set of AD743 or AD797 in the main amp (on a 2:1 adapter) with AD8397 or LMH6643 as buffers, and AD8656 or LT6234 in the DAC section. Because the Headroom Micro DAC has a much better sounding USB DAC, and better sounding line out, I traded my D1 for some electrostatic equipment and bought a Headroom to replace it. Something I regretted later because of the D1 high quality optical DAC and smaller size.

 After the success of the D1 iBasso introduced the D2 Viper which was a limited run of 100 amps with socketed opamps so that the main opamp and ground channel opamp could be changed to tune the sound. It's main feature was an improved size and superior USB DAC section, using I2S between the USB receiver and DAC, and upgrading the DAC chip from the CS4398 to the Wolfson WM8740 (like the Pico). It shipped with an LT1364 in main amp and NE5532 in ground, and while it outperformed the stock D1 it didn't outperform the "rolled" D1. However, changing the opamps to LM6172 main and THS4032 ground turned it into a giant-killer, and opamp combos to mimic the Predator and the Pico were found as well. Co-developed at the same time as the D2 Viper was the D2 Boa that was meant to be the same amp but smaller, and it eliminated the socketed opamps due to size constraints. I have suspected that if not for the insistence of several head-fi members that the D2 Viper may have never made it to production, with the D2 Boa being the final product instead. While the Viper ran at 12v for only about 15 hours, the Boa runs on 5v for about 35-40 hours and could be charged by the USB Port. The sound was better than the stock D2 Viper, but not up to the level of the D2 Viper after it received new opamps.

 The D3 was developed to fill the spot in sound quality left vacant by the discontinued D2 Viper, including the need for more power than the 5v in the Boa, and the ability to swap batteries by frequent travelers - it runs on 7.5v with 5xAAA replaceable batteries. The D3 sounds much better than the D2 Boa, but still not quite as good as the D2 Viper with the right opamps. A nice new feature was the ability to use it as a DAC with line-out only and no batteries needed, like the 2MOVE and 3MOVE when used as a DAC/amp without batteries. Unfortunately the D3 headphone out was still better than the line-out; but it could be used as a DAC preamp with good results, at the expense of using up the batteries. It's biggest problem to me was the susceptibility to RFI from the iPhone. Still, for 2/5 of the cost of a Pico or Predator it was a good bang for the buck if one wanted a DAC/amp with bigger soundstage and more detailed DAC than the 3MOVE, despite a less powerful and slightly less refined amp section. 

 In the meantime, for reasons unknown to me the D1 was discontinued after the D2 Boa was released, and that left a gap in the product line in my eyes. I was excited to hear that a new upgraded and smaller version of the D1 was being developed, and when it was released I ordered the same day it was up on the website. This is an amp that is only 1/2" longer than the D3 with the same height and width (and 1" longer than the D2), but manages to cram an additional Optical and Coax input along with the USB and analog input of the D3, plus a charging circuit that like the D2 Boa can be charged by the computer's USB port, while still retaining the line-out function of the D3 and it's Wolfson DAC. For all of us with current day macintosh computers, discontinued portable CD players with optical out, or discontinued iRiver H120 and H140 MP3 players with optical out could again have a small portable solution for DAC and amp.

 In this photo you can see the D10 Cobra on the bottom is about 1/2" longer than the D3 Python sitting on it, which is about 1/2" longer than the D2 Boa sitting on it, which is about 2/3" longer than the Pico on the top. I will get some more pictures this weekend and post them.
















 Main Features (per iBasso website):

 - PCM2906, converts USB into a S/PDIF signal
 - CS8416, DA-receiver chip 
 - WM8740, D/A chip
 - OP+BUF structure for amplification
 - 2-Setting Gain Switch for impedance matching (+3/10dB)
 - Dedicated MCU (Micro Controller Unit) to manager inputs, outputs, and functions.
 - Flexible input and output compatibility. It has USB, optical, coaxial, stereo input, line out, and stereo output
 - Works as a combo or a stand-alone AMP, DAC, USB soundcard
 - Built-in rechargeable Li-polymer battery plays up to 30 hours (30 hrs for AMP, or 20hrs for combo)
 - Measures 55*21*104mm, and weights 168g
 - Comes with power adapter, leather pouch, optical cable, USB cable, warranty card, owner¡¯s manual, and opamp rolling kit. (includes AD8656*2, LMH6643*2, Dummy adapter*2)

 As you know, the amplifier ranking can actually be a bit different depending on the headphones being used at the time, so I had to do detailed comparisons of multiple amps using multiple headphones and it takes longer and longer with the more amps and headphones I have. With the D10 included, I still have 10 of the 13 amps that have been reviewed! (minus Lyrix, D2 Viper and D1). I just can't listen to 7 or 8 headphones on 10 amps in quick succession in a way that I can remember the previous combination's sound, so I have to make some compromises.

 So, I narrowed down the D10 comparisons to only vs the top tier amps where the D10 belongs, and I compared it only to the top 4 amps that don't sound alike and were the most enjoyable = Predator, Pico, 3MOVE and XM5. At one point late in the review I got a loaner Apogee Duet to dompare it to as well. I can skip most of the others from previous reviews for a variety of reasons: I know where the D3 stands vs the Pico (almost the same but slightly less) and where the Micro DAC/Amp stands (pretty much the same as Pico). I didn't need to do a side by side with D2 Boa, Vivid V1 or Nuforce which are below the top tier for reasons mentioned previously in my reviews.

 I used my RS-1, D2000, HD600, Edition 9 and ESW10 as my full size phones, and I used my Westone 3 and ES3X plus Phonak Audeo as my IEM for the review. I first want to say that the D10 is a good match for any of these headphones, and there was not one that stood out as not getting along with it, even with the stock opamps that were installed. In addition to listening via USB, I found it was very good with my iMod portable (modded ipod), so unlike the D1 it is good out of the box with analog input while the D1 needed new opamps to sound good with analog inputs. And it was very competent via USB as well, but even better with optical as I discovered later. Anytime I did testing via optical I made sure my Macbook pro was set for 24/96 output, as several of the music files I used were native 24.96 files. Lastly, I also tried the DAC line-out and used it as a DAC/pre-amp via headphone-out vs Pico as a DAC/Pre-amp for my Woo GES/Stax O2 rig as well.

 With no burn-in at all and right out of the box, using the stock opamps, and listening via USB it sounded as good as my 600-700 hour D3 via USB in a side by side comparison (I stopped counting after 600 hours). At 55 hours (with optical) D10 had slightly grainy highs vs Pico, but was very detailed and spacious like the Pico. By about 215 hours it had become more refined sounding and I felt that the D10 fed via optical out of a Macbook ranked up there with the top DAC/amps like the Headamp Pico, RSA Predator, Meier 3MOVE and such. I had passed my 300 hour mark set for burn-in the morning of 2/9/09 and over the course of the review I have over 400 hours on the D10 now. The Majority of my review was done with the stock opamps. During the initial evaluation period, I was happy to discover that the D10 has very good channel balance at low volume knob positions with IEM, and it is dead silent when music is not playing and it is connected as a DAC/amp to the computer. There is no hiss with high sensitivity IEM like the Macbook headphone out, while high end DAC/amp like the Apogee Duet has a very slight hiss with my Westone ES3X customs and Livewires or SE530 customs.

 I started my initial listening with USB via RS-1, D2000 and HD600, and first compared it to the Predator. Listening to the D10 and Predator Via USB, and going back and forth between them, I was unable to tell any significant differences in the sound signature other than the Predator has a little less power to drive the HD600, was less detailed, and the Predator's soundstage was flatter than the D10. This was a very long listening session and by the time I was done it was the middle of the night and I was tired, but in subsequent comparisons I felt the D10 was still up to the level of enjoyment that I get from the Predator. So, it seems the D10 sounds as good as the Predator to me but the D10 USB DAC is more detailed and spacious than the Predator.

 I then compared the iBasso D10 optical input vs Predator USB input the next night, using the Phonak Audeo IEM with grey filters and silicone tips while listening to CD's ripped lossless into ALAC format. This particular IEM setup is a more demanding test in that the Phonak with grey filters and silicone tips can be ruthless in revealing details, and usually need the Complys foam tips to smooth out the treble which can sometimes be bright. I often find the grey filters are a little harsher sounding with the silicone tips (or can border on sibilant), and almost always use the large Complys tips (which I had to buy separately). I wanted to see if any of the amps were more forgiving of a demanding and detailed IEM, and to see how much more detail was available via optical instead of USB. 

 When I used the D10 via optical I could have 3 amps connected to the Macbook Pro at the same time with two via USB, allowing me to quickly switch between the amps. I rotated the Predator, Pico 3MOVE, and XM5 through the two USB ports, and then also listened to the D10 via USB again. With this particular IEM setup the Predator was slightly smoother in the highs than the D10 Optical, 3MOVE USB or XM5 USB. The Pico was also very smooth and refined, and with this particular IEM setup I have to say the Pico DAC/amp combo is tied with Predator for smoothness when the Phonak have the wrong combination of filters and tips. Going back to the usual Complys T130 foam tips I felt all the amps became smoother with improved bass, so that is really an IEM issue and I should not have been using the silicone tips in the 1st place. In this round of testing the D10 optical does seem to have more micro-detail than all but the Pico (with 16/44 music). It seems the D10 DAC ties with the Pico as the most detailed and spacious while being smooth at the same time (except in mismatched IEM tips and filters). This held true with listening with the Westone 3 and ES3X as well.

 I then tried the D10 DAC to feed another portable amp, using line-out and headphone out. I plugged the D10 line-out into the Predator using a nice quality ALO 22g Cryo Silver X mini-mini and the D10 was connected to the Macbook via optical and USB, but I also left the Predator connected via USB. This way I was able to flip the front panel switch to switch between the built-in DAC or the D10 DAC while switching the computer at the same time. The D10 line-out volume level matches closely the Predator's USB DAC line level, so the volume of the amp did not change with changing the source. With 16bit/44khz lossless ripped CDs, the D10 line-out into the Predator sounded better as a source than the Predator using it's built-in USB DAC, which sounded slightly flatter and less lively, regardless of whether the D10 was used with optical or USB. Switching to the D10 headphone-out to drive the Predator woke up the sound a bit, similar to what I heard with the D3 line-out function previously - both the D3 and D10 DAC's line-out seem slightly less alive and vibrant than their headphone out when feeding the sound into another amplifier. This was confirmed when comparing the D10 line-out to several desktop DAC at a recent mini-meet, where I only used line-out instead of the headphone out (there were also issues of different interconnects and digital cables and inserting a pre-amp and listener fatigue and severe lack of time).

 I then put on three different albums with higher quality 24/96 bit rates in lossless (Ryan Adams and the Cardinals, and Portico Quartet, and Arnie Somogyl's Ambulance) and listened again. The D10 optical DAC into the Predator was superior with more micro-detail and ambience and air between instruments, and while the Predator via USB sounded good the soundstage was flatter and smaller than with the D10 optical. This improvement was still there even when feeding the inferior D10 line out instead of headphone out into the Predator. The D10 handles native 24/96 files well, while the older D1 could not decode digital signals greater than 24/48 via optical (Mac audio midi setup was set for 24/96 via optical before launching iTunes). With the computer still set for optical out and using the D10 DAC, swapping the headphones from Predator over to the D10 (and unplugging the mini interconnect) switched the sound to the D10 headphone out, and resulted in very little change in the sound when the headphones were driven by the D10 instead of the Predator. Basically, the D10 via USB matches or exceeds the Predator's performance as a DAC/amp, and via optical it beats it in detail and resolution with 16/44 or 24/96 files. 

 I then did some comparisons with the Pico vs D10. In many songs such as with an Elaine Elias song "You and the Night and the Music", some of the cymbals strikes or other notes die out just a little faster with the Pico and there is more quiet or blackness between the notes than with the D10. It's like with the D10 optical I can hear a little "deeper" into the music and hear more of the quiet stuff going on in the background and between notes, and I don't mean noise floor but rather the decay of the instruments and echos hiding in there. This gives the illusion that the notes start and stop slightly faster with the Pico, making it sound a little snappier. I find that the D10 as a DAC/amp and the Pico (and Duet) have a larger sense of space and ambience than the Predator, 3MOVE or XM5 which don't use the Wolfson WM8740 DAC like these two.

 Similar to my DAC test vs Predator, I also tried feeding the D10 as a DAC line-out (and headphone out) into the Pico, and compared it's DAC to the Pico's built-in DAC (removing the amp section from the equation). The D10 headphone out volume needed to be set at 3 o'clock in high gain to get the output volume to match the Pico USB DAC volume when flipping between them. When using D10 line-out the volume was much softer and while I listened to the Pico in low gain via it's built-in USB, when switching to D10 as the DAC with its line-out feeding Pico I had to switch the Pico to hi-gain to match the volume of the Pico's USB input. The D10 line out is softer and quieter than the internal USB DAC of the Pico, which was not the case with the Predator. I found The D10 optical and the Apogee Duet via firewire were both slightly more detailed with native 24/96 files than the Pico, but the differences were much less with 16/44 music (almost negligible). So, the optical D10 line-out when fed native 24/96 did pull away slightly from the Pico, where the USB makes the Mac down-sample the music to 16/44, and then the Pico has to up-sample it back up to 24/96. But otherwise, with 16/44 files the advantage was minimal if any.

 As for other areas of the sound, the D10 as an amp sounds slightly warmer than the Pico, and after getting used to the sound via D10 as a headphone amp, switching to the Pico can sometimes sound slightly thinner - the same effect I experienced almost a year ago when I was comparing the Pico to the Predator. Sometimes I think the D10 sound falls between the Pico and Predator, but with having the resolution and space of the Pico. I feel the musical performance via the D10 as a complete package sounded a little fuller and "bigger" than the Pico, despite having a little less power than the Pico for the HD600. It could still get loud with HD600, but was optimal with RS-1, D2000, Edition 9, ESW10, and all my IEM. When not pushing the D10 amp to the max, the sound signature seems just a little closer to a desktop amp to me, like the Predator, although neither one has the power of a desktop amp (or even the power of the 3MOVE and Pico). With the RS-1, D2000 and Edition 9 the D10 volume can go extremely high. With HD600 it is about as powerful as the D3 and XM5, and more than the D2 Boa or Predator or Nuforce. But the Pico and V1 are still more powerful, and the 3MOVE is the king of power with the HD600 (in hi-output mode). I am still amazed at the volumes I can get with the 3MOVE and HD600.

 I did another comparison (which I repeated on 2/14 with Sherwood), comparing the D10 and Pico as USB DACs feeding my Woo GES and listening with Stax O2 Mk1 and Mk2. This rig is where the Pico gets used the most. The D10 via optical and feeding the line-out signal into a Woo GES desktop amp was very close to the Pico doing the same, and at the meet Sherwood didn't even notice the very small drop in detail and space when I switched the D10 from optical to USB when he wasn't looking (listened to D10 optical feeding the GES, then USB Pico, and then back to D10 but via USB instead). I found that it is easier to hear the drop in sound quality switching the D10 from optical to USB when one is looking for it. Nevertheless, the D10 USB DAC is at least as good as the D3 USB DAC that was so close to (but slightly below) the Pico previously. At one point the D10 DAC line-out output wasn't high enough for the low-gain GES. So I switched the D10 to headphone out into the GES, like I must do with the Pico, and I noticed an improvement in dynamics and soundstage which I assumed was from the higher gain. Further testing shows this is a slight improvement in sound from headphone out vs line-out when the D10 is used to drive another amp.

 I want to mention that at the same meet last weekend, where Sherwood and I compared the D10 vs Pico as a DAC feeding a full size amp, we also tried comparing D10 to several desktop DACs. That didn't turn out as well. We had 6 DACs connected to an NAD542 via an S/PDIF distribution center via Coax with a mish-mash of digital cables, and a variety of interconnects feeding the DACs outputs into a Presonus central Station, and then fed the output of the Presonus to 3 electrostatic amps with a variety of cables and listened with 5 electrostatic headphones. Now that I look at it, there was no way to get all 5 listeners hearing the same thing, nor could we put the DACs on a level playing field. The test showed the line-out is not as dynamic and spacious (5 out of 5 people agreed) as the 5 desktop DACs. But, I don't recall the D10 ever sounding that flat and "un-dynamic" before. So I had to wonder if we did something wrong because we had clearly earlier in the day shown the D10 to be a match for the Pico as a DAC/Pre-amp. I wonder if part of that DAC shoot-out result was due to the difference between line-out and headphone out, but still, when connected directly to the amp it is feeding, the D10 DAC line-out is pretty good. 

 And, as far as I can tell the D10 via USB is MUCH better than the USB in the older D1 was - the D1 USB feeding another amp was closer to the $40 Headstage DAC cable feeding another amp (although D1 USB sounded better when feeding its internal amp). I also find that the D10 optical input DAC is a little better sounding than the D1 optical was as I remember it, because this D10 DAC is closer to the Micro DAC and Pico than the D1 was. In general, listening to the D10 via optical is like like mixing the best traits of the Predator and the Pico together, and even via USB I enjoyed it as much as the Predator and Pico or Duet. I believe it tops the sound of the D3 Python and the D2 Viper with rolled opamps, and is the best DAC/amp that iBasso has put out so far.

 As I have reported problems with RFI from the iPhone causing a GSM Buzz with other amps, I listened for that issue as well. Fortunately the D10 does not pick up radio stations from the towers behind my house like my D3, and the RFI "buzz" from iPhone is less than with the D3 as well (and more like the RFI with my D2 Boa = mild but livable). The D10 is also less sensitive to RFI with nothing plugged into the USB port on the back of the amp, and the iPhone Buzz responds well to changing the opamp to an AD8656 and using a Quick Bridge Solutions - EM Shield for iPhone EM blocking card. 

 The ability to change or "roll" opamps is a nice feature. The D10 comes stock with an AD4841-2 in the main amp socket, and a pair of AD708 in the buffer sockets (all dual channel opamps, not single). They also include a small case with two AD8656 opamps, two LMH6643 opamps, and two dummy opamps for bypassing the buffers. I also have a large supply of opamps from my time rolling opamps in the D1 and D2 Viper, so I tried a variety of opamps with the D10. There are several that sound good, including an AD8066 with the AD708 buffers, AD8397 with the buffers bypassed (using dummy opamps that are included), and AD8656 with bypassed buffers. The AD8656 and 8066 have nice large/spacious soundstages and refined sound, and the AD8656 still puts out a lot of power without any buffers and can get loud enough with HD600 at max volume knob setting, without any clipping. Using the AD8656 does get a little brighter with any buffer I tried, including 2x AD708, LMH6643 and AD8656. I had a third 8656 left from my D1 kit (it will blow if used in the main amp socket of the D1), but I didn't like it enough with three 8656 to use anything but the one 8656 by itself. I have not had a chance to try any of the other opamps with two 8656 as buffers. Using the buffers did seem to add just a little more volume to the 8656, but then the D10 would clip before the volume knob would hit 5 o'clock. So far my two preferred setups are the stock one, or the AD8656 with bypassed buffers. I only started rolling opamps on 2/21 and the AD8656 is what is in it now, for the final few hours of my review. I left the D10 connected to USB with the switch flipped to charge for 2 weeks, to see how it would do in a desktop rig where it is plugged in and on all the time. Tonight I unplugged the USB and left it running via optical with the AD8656 opamp and bypassed buffers to test battery life. I will report on this later, so that I can post this review now.

 To me there seem to be three tiers of portable headphone amps (examples are ones I have heard):

 1. the "Don't bother with this if you don't have to" group = E3 and Boostaroo (add power but subtracts from the sound, narrow soundstage, or rolled off frequency response, or all of the above).

 2. the "Good bang for the buck but with compromises" group which are not good for everything, but great for some things = includes Travagans Colors, JSeaber Cmoy, Caffeine Pro, Vivid V1, Nuforce mobile, D2 Boa and Stock D1 or stock D2 Viper.

 3. and the "Wow, this is getting closer to a desktop amp" (usually in sound but not power). These have more presence and body to the sound and are more refined, and there are very few phones they don't work well with = includes Pico, Predator, 3MOVE, XM5, D3 Python, D2 Viper with rolled opamps, D1 rolled and D10 stock or rolled, Headsix, TTVJ, Micro Amp. The Lyrix Total is an odd one out because the Amp sounds like a top tier and the DAC is a middle tier. The D10 now joins this group, and I put it at the top of my list for now.

*RANKING: I HAD HATED THE RANKING BECAUSE I PREVIOUSLY HAD TOO MANY 3RD PLACE TIES, ALTHOUGH FOR DIFFERENT REASONS, and said that I would not wish to part with any of the amps that were in 3rd or higher because they all have an area where they excel.* (except D2 Viper which could sound like a Predator or a Pico but was redundant with poor battery life and was sold). *Now I am attempting to split out some of the ties and have more rankings with fewer ties.* With the latest ranking with fewer ties and a new 1st place, anything below 5th is expendable, even if very good sounding. I previously moved the 2MOVE to 4th because I couldn't remember how good it sounded, having not listened to one in months. Then I bought a 3MOVE which sounds like a 2MOVE with an upgraded case, and I fixed my ranking. See additional comments included if you haven't read the entire review:

*1. iBasso D10* Great sound that blends the performance of the Predator and Pico, with a USB DAC that falls between them and an optical DAC that exceeds theirs. Ability to roll opamps and tune the sound, convenient charging via USB port, Decent power for even HD600 and good low volume channel balance for IEM.
*2. RSA Predator* (good bass and soundstage, more body, organic, full. Seems to do well with all my headphones, and not bad with any. Gobs of power with RS-1, D2000 and Edition 9 but Could use a little more power with HD600 - very underpowered for AKG K240M 600 ohm. DAC is not as good as the Pico, but the sound of the amp makes up for it)
*3. D2 Viper with rolled opamps* (with LM6172/THS4032 - balanced, not too forward, sweet/magical Saxophone, almost mesmerizing like Predator. With my IEM I found it sounded better with the LM6172 and THS4032 swapped. This second opamp configuration was good with all my IEM, and not bad with my full size phones, except the RS-1 seem a bit bright and the Proline 2500 lacked fullness in the mids. With LTC6241HV/LMH6622 sounds like 98% of the Predator with only 7 hour battery life. Later I discovered the LM4562 main/LM6172 ground, and this works very well for full size phones and IEM - very open and spacious and detailed, sounding closer to the Pico without losing any warmth or rich tone. And battery life was bumped from 7 hours to 17 hours!)
*4. PICO* (smooth and transparent without coloration, Great DAC, won the bad mastering Diana Krall test, but nothing special with piano and sax like the others, too neutral as an amp - how is that possible, maybe not because there is something around 2Khz that is not right with RS-1. It really seems to shine with my re-cabled Denon D2000, Klipsch Image, Freq Show customs, but doesn't sound bad with anything but my Proline 2500). Over the past few months the Pico has really been growing on me, and it no longer seems to lack warmth with my RS-1 or other headphones (especially since I sold the PL2500). The DAC's space and ambience and soundstage still stand out as slightly superior to other USB DAC, as before, and it seems to do well with most IEM but not all)
*4. Headroom 2006 Micro Stack Portable* (a twin to the Pico's sound but better with piano, too BIG and out of production, with crossfeed mids are richer/warmer but highs rolled off).
*4. 2MOVE/3MOVE* (sweet mids and saxophone, midbass hmmm, failed the bad mastering diana krall test, great detail and air, too large and heavy, sounds as good as Pico but it's a different sound, sometimes too forward. NO iPhone Buzz. Auditory memory fades as I hadn't listened to the 2MOVE since April, so I bought a B-stock 3MOVE and found I do still enjoy it very much. Since I am liking open and spacious sound a little more now, the Pico moved up to tie the 3MOVE rather than move the 3MOVE down. I did add listening to the Westone 3 with this amp and they are fantastic together. 3MOVE is a better match for the D2000 and RS-1 than XM5, while I liked the XM5 more with HD600, Edition 9 and ESW10, even though 3MOVE had more power for HD600)
*5. Practical Devices XM5* (amp section better than D3 and rivals higher ranked amps, but DAC not as good as the D3 - so it evens out. Gets along better with more of my headphones than D3 and with all of my IEM, and I am having no iPhone buzzing with it so far. A chameleon - many times it sounds like my Predator, and other times it sounds more like the 3MOVE, and the amp section really shines with iMod or an external DAC)
*6. D3 Python* (very sensitive to RF interference from Cheyenne Mountain and NORAD. The sound is very close to the 3rd place amps, and I like it very much, being only slightly less smooth in the upper mids with Grado than Pico, and very slightly less micro-detail in ambient cues and complex passages, dropped in rank because of RFI problems)
*7. Nuforce Icon Mobile* (More forward than D2 Boa and closer to Vivid V1 and 2MOVE in that regard, has good synergy with Westone 3, Klipsch X10, Nuforce NE-7M, Denon C700, ATH-ESW10, D2000, and Edition 9 - sounded nice with HD600 but a bit under powered with HD600 and not worth trying with 600 ohm AKG K240M. With RS-1 occasionally had a similar upper mids coloration like Vivid V1 and sometimes needed to switch to the flats to enjoy them more, so not first choice for Grado but would not avoid the amp because one owns Grados, good midrange detail but not as full and rich sounding as the top tier amps above except with D2000, Edition 9 and Westone 3 which bring that to the table on their own)
*7. D2 Boa* (Sonic signature slightly warmer than the Pico, and between the D2 Viper with LM6172 in the main amp (warmer) vs THS4032 in the main amp and LM6172 in the ground (cooler). Timbre and tone was good, and lower mids were slightly forward and rich, and highs had slightly less extension than the D2 Viper or Pico and Predator (in that order). The sense of space with live performances was superior with the D2 Viper, Pico and Predator (in that order), and LESS with the Boa at 300 hours of burn-in. However, the Boa did open up and gain more air and ambience on the level of the other top ranked amps by 575 hours of burn-in. Listening to Diana Krall "Girl in the Other Room" (Temptation and other songs) seemed to indicate more of a low mids hump than the other amps, which also caused problems with Pianos and realism on that CD. The problems reproducing this particular CD remained after 575 hours of burn-in, however with other CD's like Jazz at the Pawnshop, Handel Messiah and Tsuyoshi Yamamoto the D2 Boa demonstrated improved transparency and realism with the extra burn-in. And with other music it seems the bass extension is slightly less than the others in the top ranks, but by 575 hours of burn-in (with my RS-1) the 16Hz audio tones on Binks Audio Test CD were clearly audible, and the volume of the 20Hz tone caught me by surprise, while 25Hz was a little disorienting! With over 800 hours the lower mids hump is less noticeable with female and male vocals now, but the middle mids and upper mids now seem to be more withdrawn instead.
*8. D1 with rolled opamps* (AD797 main/LM6643 buffer/LT6234 DAC - powerful, punchy, energetic, alive - not as bright as AD743/6643/6241. The D2 Boa moved up a little with more burn-in, but it wasn't quite good enough to rise up to a 3rd place tie. So the modded D1 and everything else had to move down a slot. The D1 via USB isn't as good as via optical, which is why it is not tied with the D2 Boa after the Boa improved with extended burn-in. With optical input would beat the Boa easily. 
*9. Vivid Technology V1* (very good synergy with HD600 and AKG K240M 600 ohm, nice and fun with Edition 9 and Klipsch Image X10, acceptable with RS-1 IF switching to flats but bowls are not recommended, unacceptable with my Freq Show but not the amp's fault. DAC with slightly more micro-detal than stock D1 via USB or Headstage Lyrix, slightly less than either D2 Viper/Boa or the other amps. The most forward of all the amps. Can be near 3rd place with HD600 and Edition 9 or 2nd with K240M, but 8th place with Grado RS-1 and bowls and last with Freq Show)
*10. D2 stock* - tied (thin in the middle, neutral with good bass - it was sound signature and power but not level of detail that held it back with the stock opamps.) Sounds good with Freq Show and most of my IEM, fairly good with HD600 and Edition 9 but lacks power, not bad with RS-1 but can't properly drive AKG K240M 600 ohm. Sounds better with re-cabled modded ATH-AD900 than the Boa or V1.
*10. Lyrix* (good frequency balance, DAC lacking details and air vs the others, but the amp is great with analog input.)
*11. D1 stock opamps* (put AD823/NE5532/AD8616 back in right before I shipped it back for the 2-3db channel imbalance, too edgy and bright and distant. Very close to 7th as a DAC/Amp because the DAC is so good it makes up for the frequency response issues. Clearly 8th if only using analog input. NOTE - my V1 opamps were from the initial run, and iBasso updated the opamps to V2 in November 07 to make it better than Lyrix.)

 I should note that any of these amps are very pleasing sounding.

 ADDENDUM - Some people aren't clear about the differences between optical and USB vs other USB DAC amps, or the differences in sound between line-out of the D10 to feed another amp vs D10 headphone-out to feed another amp as a preamp. While the D10 headphone out is more dynamic and lively than the slightly flatter sounding line-out, the line out is still very good when feeding another amp, and beats the Predator's DAC and closely matches the Pico's DAC, but beating it with native 24/96 music. The only time the line-out did not compare favorably was in a comparison to several desktop DAC in a shoot out that I think involved poor scientific method - where they didn't all use the same digital and analog cables between the source, preamp and power amps, and where all the listeners were using different headphones and amps. 

 I believe I reported that I thought the D10 optical DAC sounds about as good as the Headroom, and both optical DAC were a little better than the Pico when they were all driving portable amps. I also thought I said that the line-out was better in comparisons to other portable USB DAC in most cases, just that the headphone out was even better, and the optical on top of either was even better. It gets confusing because I listened to the D10 with (1) it's own DAC and amp with USB and optical, and then listened to the (2) Predator and (3) Pico with their own DAC. And I also listened to Predator and Pico with them being feed by the D10 DAC with (4) optical and (5) USB, using both line-out and headphone out to feed the Predator and Pico. In total that's 12 combinations of DAC and amp, as listed below!

 D10 optical > D10 amp
 D10 USB > D10 amp

 Predator USB > Predator amp
 D10 optical headphone out > Predator amp
 D10 optical line-out > Predator amp
 D10 USB headphone out > Predator amp
 D10 USB line-out > Predator amp

 Pico USB > Pico amp
 D10 optical Headphone out > Pico amp
 D10 optical line-out > Pico amp
 D10 USB headphone out > Pico amp
 D10 USB line-out > Pico amp


----------



## kostalex

Interesting review. So optical D10 is better than Pico USB? Then should you edit Pico description "...The DAC's space and ambience and soundstage still stand out as slightly superior..."?


----------



## kostalex

Does anybody know if Airport Express may output 24/96 audio via optical?


----------



## swayne

Quote:


 it runs on 7.5v with 5xAA replaceable batteries. 
 

Sorry to be picky but I used to be a proofreader.

 The D3 runs on 5xAAA.

 Steven.


----------



## swayne

Oh dear, sorry about this.

 Same paragraph:

  Quote:


 A nice new feature was the ability to use it as a DAC with line-out only and no batteries needed, like the 2MOVE and 3MOVE. 
 

The 2/3Move don't have a line out like the D3.

 Please don't hate me.

 Steven.


----------



## nocturnalsheet

awesome review. thanks larry.

 i shall ponder on whether to get the D10 to replace my D3.

 oh the decisions. =D


----------



## vkvedam

Great review Larry...


----------



## greenarrow

Larry - nice review. Learn something on my 'rolled' D2 Viper.


----------



## Skylab

Larry, amazing stuff as always. Keep up the good work.


----------



## jamato8

Thanks for the hard work Larry. What a fine in depth look at combinations and results.


----------



## Luca T

Great review, wonderfully detailed!

 Thanks for all your work and time!


----------



## kostalex

Sh! Larry is sleeping ... He was working hard.


----------



## Jaw007

Great review


----------



## tako_tsubo

HPA...excellent review of the ibasso D10 and how it stacks up as a DAC vs. the Pico with the Stax gear. Great reference info!


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kostalex* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Interesting review. So optical D10 is better than Pico USB? Then should you edit Pico description "...The DAC's space and ambience and soundstage still stand out as slightly superior..."?_

 

I edited that to say "...slightly superior to other USB DACs...", which it should have said that ever since I reviewed the Micro DAC/Amp last summer, when I thought it's optical was slightly better than Pico or Micro Stack via USB.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *swayne* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sorry to be picky but I used to be a proofreader.

 The D3 runs on 5xAAA.

 Steven._

 

Yeah, another typo and left out the extra "A" due to fatigue - I can't proof read at 3:30AM when I am having insomnia.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kostalex* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Does anybody know if Airport Express may output 24/96 audio via optical?_

 

I have read somewhere it is limited to 16/44 and the Mac will downsample before it sends out the wireless data to the Airport Express.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *swayne* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Oh dear, sorry about this.

 Same paragraph:

 The 2/3Move don't have a line out like the D3.

 Please don't hate me.

 Steven._

 

That was supposed to say something like, "A nice new feature was the ability to use it as a DAC with line-out only and no batteries needed, like the 2MOVE and 3MOVE when used as a DAC/amp without batteries."

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kostalex* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sh! Larry is sleeping ... He was working hard._

 

Yeah, I woke up at 10:11 mtn time and was amazed to read you posted that right at the time I woke up (you must be psycho, er... I mean psychic).

 I fixed the typos, but it wouldn't have happened if I listened to myself and went to bed so I could finish it today. I'm sure there are more mistakes, while I'll try to fix over the day. I simply caved in a little to the pressure to get it done, which I resisted posting prematurely for a week. 

 The part that threw me off from posting my review on time last weekend was the desktop DAC comparison or shootout we did, which the results went against everything I had planned to post about the clarity of the DAC (despite the D10 performing as well as the Pico for Sherwood in the GES rig at the meet). I had to do all my D10 vs Duet, mini-DAC, Micro DAC and vs Pico comparisons over again - just to convince myself that something went wrong at the meet DAC shootout that weekend and I wasn't nuts. There is still a degree of refinement to the Apogee that I can't describe, when used as a USB (or firewire) DAC that the Pico can reach via USB but the D10 or other USB DAC can't.


----------



## Luca T

What do you think about it used as amp from a Hp-out of a DAP source?


----------



## mrarroyo

Nice thorough review, good to see you find it to be the top ranked (so far). After writing so much do yo need a new keyboard?


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Luca T* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What do you think about it used as amp from a Hp-out of a DAP source?_

 

I mentioned early in the review that it was very good out of my iMod, and so the analog input sounded good, unlike the stock iBasso D1. Basically as your source feeding the D10 improves so does the sound. The D10 optical sounds very similar to when I feed it from my iMod through a Vcap dock.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mrarroyo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Nice thorough review, good to see you find it to be the top ranked (so far). After writing so much do yo need a new keyboard? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I had to get one 3 weeks ago...


 On another note, the D10 with AD8656 and bypassed buffers has been running via battery off an optical connection for almost 23 hours and the battery is still going strong. I have to go to lunch, so I might just shut it off and continue the battery test when I get back, instead of letting it run down while I am out.


----------



## wolfen68

To make sure I understand...is your feeling now that the D10 DAC (optical) is superior to your MicroDAC (optical)?

 I don't yet understand your feelings regarding the lineout of the D10, which would be a critical factor if using it as a DAC only to another amp. You seem to imply it is subpar as compared to others....


----------



## jopagi

I did a quick test of the lineout to my home system when I first received the D10. I didn't hear the same magic that I was hearing through headphones. I suspected a cheap mini->RCA cable adapter was the culprit, but it sounds like there may be more to it than that. I didn't try using the adapter through the headphone out jack.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *wolfen68* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_To make sure I understand...is your feeling now that the D10 DAC (optical) is superior to your MicroDAC (optical)?

 I don't yet understand your feelings regarding the lineout of the D10, which would be a critical factor if using it as a DAC only to another amp. You seem to imply it is subpar as compared to others...._

 

No, I believe I reported that I thought the D10 optical DAC sounds about the same as the Headroom, and both optical DAC were a little better than the Pico when they were all driving portable amps. I also thought I said that the line-out was better in comparisons to other portable USB DAC in most cases, just that the headphone out was even better, and the optical on top of either was even better. 


*Clarification:* In response to some questions about D10 line out vs headphone out - the D10 line-out is still quite good and my review and rankings are based on the performance of the line-out when applicable. As a USB DAC I felt that the line-out was better in comparisons to other portable USB DAC in all cases except for the Pico USB DAC being better and closer to the higher performance of the D10 optical; however, I noted that the headphone out was even better than line-out, and the optical on top of either output was even better than USB. 

 It gets confusing because I listened to the D10 with (1) it's own DAC and amp with USB and optical, and then listened to the (2) Predator and (3) Pico with their own DAC. And I also listened to Predator and Pico with them being feed by the D10 DAC with optical and USB, using both line-out and headphone out to feed the Predator and Pico. That's 12 combinations of DAC and amp!

 D10 optical > D10 amp
 D10 USB > D10 amp
 Predator USB > Predator amp
 D10 optical line-out > Predator amp
 D10 optical headphone out > Predator amp
 D10 USB line-out > Predator amp
 D10 USB headphone out > Predator amp
 Pico USB > Pico amp
 D10 optical line-out > Pico amp
 D10 optical Headphone out > Pico amp
 D10 USB line-out > Pico amp
 D10 USB headphone out > Pico amp

 The only time the line-out did not compare favorably was in the comparison to several desktop DAC, in a shoot out that I think involved poor methodology - where they didn't all use the same digital and analog cables between the source, or same preamp and power amp interconnects, and where all the listeners were using different headphones and amps, without being able to volume match the lower output of the D10 and too little time to really begin to appreciate the sound. 


 Take a look again, and in the mean time I'll look and see if that wasn't clear.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jopagi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I did a quick test of the lineout to my home system when I first received the D10. I didn't hear the same magic that I was hearing through headphones. I suspected a cheap mini->RCA cable adapter was the culprit, but it sounds like there may be more to it than that. I didn't try using the adapter through the headphone out jack._

 

Can you try it again using line-out and then headphone out to feed the home amp, and tell what you hear?

 Also, how good is your home system headphone amp?


----------



## RAQemUP

Bah, HeadphoneAddict. You are making my wallet have panic attacks. Alas, I must resist! I just don't need a portable with optical/coax in (not to mention I am getting a Audio-GD Compass) and I have been happy as a pig in mud with my rolled D2 Viper.

 Plus, this last year and a half has been crazy with the amount of great portable amp and amp/dac products that I really just want to see what comes out by the end of the year.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

POST #1 AND #2 ARE FULL - I CANNOT ADD MORE INFO TO THEM. RESPECTFULLY REQUEST TO RETIRE NOW SIR!


----------



## jopagi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Can you try it again using line-out and then headphone out to feed the home amp, and tell what you hear?

 Also, how good is your home system headphone amp?_

 

Here's my setup: Sony DVP-NS900V into D10 optical/BenchMark DAC-1 coax into Extended Foreplay III into PPX3 slam. I tested using HD650, AKG 701, and Shure E500 IEM.

 I used the variable output on the DAC-1 to level the volume (by ear). D10 line out corresponded to roughly 11:30 on the DAC-1 volume dial, max headphone on low gain to 1:30, max headphone on high gain to 2:15.

 Bottom line: FWIW, I could not reliably tell a difference between the DAC-1, the D10 headphone out and the D10 line out into the FP-III/PPX3 setup. Any differences that I thought I might have detected fell below my margin of listening error.

 I was only listening for subtle background/spatial cues, and I only chose music that had no significant deep bass.

 For all three headphones, I preferred listening directly into the D10 (for the music that I chose). I suspect that the blacker background of the D10 gave it the edge. There were a number of details that I picked up first via the D10, and only afterwards was I able to hear them via the PPX3.

 Disclaimers: I don't consider myself experienced at picking apart details like this, and the PPX3, while a decent amp, isn't the most resolving head amp.
 It was still a fun experiment!


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Well, maybe it is psycho-acoustic for me that headphone out sounds a little more lively. I still found the D10 line-out fed into Predator to be better than the Predator's own USB DAC, whether the D10 was USB or optical and regardless of whether I used line-out or headphone out (just noting that optical was another step up). 

 And I felt the D10 optical DAC via line out was slightly above the Pico's DAC when using 24/96 music files and on par with the Pico with 16/44 music, while the D10 USB DAC was slightly below the Pico's USB DAC.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

OFFICIAL BATTERY TIME: D10 ran *28 hours on battery*, with AD8656 opamp in LR and buffers bypassed and input via optical DAC. 

 Volume was normal and between 12-1 o'clock with HD600 for the first 20 hours, and then 11-12 o'clock with ATH-ESW10 for the remaining 8 hours. That exceeds the factory specs by 8 hours, and it ran 140% as long as expected when using the DAC (20 hours with DAC, 30 without).

 If I put the stock opamps back, I will do another battery test with that configuration. I have an LTC6241HV on order, to try with the AD8656 x2 as buffers, but if I recall from the iBasso D1 rolling days the 6241 is similar to the 4841, and the 6241 is the opamp that made the D2 Viper sound similar to the Predator.


----------



## Brighten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_OFFICIAL BATTERY TIME: D10 ran *28 hours on battery*, with AD8656 opamp in LR and buffers bypassed and input via optical DAC. 

 Volume was normal and between 12-1 o'clock with HD600 for the first 20 hours, and then 11-12 o'clock with ATH-ESW10 for the remaining 8 hours. *That exceeds the factory specs by 8 hours*, and it ran 140% as long as expected when using the DAC (20 hours with DAC, 30 without).

 If I put the stock opamps back, I will do another battery test with that configuration. I have an LTC6241HV on order, to try with the AD8656 x2 as buffers, but if I recall from the iBasso D1 rolling days the 6241 is similar to the 4841, and the 6241 is the opamp that made the D2 Viper sound similar to the Predator._

 

Nice! Now only if Apple could do this type of thing...


----------



## wolfen68

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Take a look again, and in the mean time I'll look and see if that wasn't clear._

 

Ok...it appears that you feel the D10 is a solid win (even as lineout) and on par with the MicroDAC. Thanks for clearing my confusion...which may have been my own doing. (Though it's probably your fault for having so much detailed information in there 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





)


----------



## jvlgato

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_POST #1 AND #2 ARE FULL - I CANNOT ADD MORE INFO TO THEM. RESPECTFULLY REQUEST TO RETIRE NOW SIR!_

 

I'm looking forward to seeing post #3! iQube w/ DAC coming out in May!


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jvlgato* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm looking forward to seeing post #3! iQube w/ DAC coming out in May! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I started post #1 and #2 at the same time, so I would own them both. Once I filled up #1 I started on #2, which is now full. I have to start deleting things to add any more to my review.


----------



## slwiser

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I started post #1 and #2 at the same time, so I would own them both. Once I filled up #1 I started on #2, which is now full. I have to start deleting things to add any more to my review._

 

Start a new thread calling it second tier and leave this one as first tier....You could mixed a little in the middle to fill out the differences making you have much more room.

 But if it were me I would leave it alone and say good enough is enough. You have already put so much time into what we have already. Can we really ask more? Of Course we can and we will.....


----------



## Brighten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *slwiser* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Start a new thread calling it second tier and leave this one as first tier....You could mixed a little in the middle to fill out the differences making you have much more room.

 But if it were me I would leave it alone and say good enough is enough. You have already put so much time into what we have already. Can we really ask more? Of Course we can and we will.....
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I second that.


----------



## wuwhere

A lot of work. Thanks!


----------



## Jaw007

Good enough for me!


----------



## EFN

This is awesome Larry, simply awesome. You just gave me the final reason to secure a D10.....you evil you


----------



## wolfen68

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *EFN* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This is awesome Larry, simply awesome. You just gave me the final reason to secure a D10.....you evil you
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





_

 

Was the first reason that you have an imposingly dangerous looking system now?


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

The AD8066 main LR/AD708 buffers is different but I can't say better. And, listening with my Westone ES3X, not only does the AD8397 hiss with AD8656 buffers but so does the AD746 in main LR socket with those buffers. So those combos are out. Switching the LR main opamp back to stock ADA4841-2 and leaving the AD8656 buffers is just the ticket, and no hiss at all - dead silent!

 I think the AD8656 in main LR with buffers bypassed is not as good as ADA4841-2/AD8656 above. It is very good but not magical, and still better than AD8397 in LR with buffers bypassed. For some reason the AD8656 in main without bypassing the buffers sounded a little bright (i.e. with AD708, AD8656 or LMH6643). I have an extra 8656 so I tried using all three and it was fine with HD600 and ESW10 but not what I was looking for. I did not like buffers with AD8397 either.

 But, the stock ADA4841-2 with AD8656 buffers in my D10 right now is silent from hiss with 124dB/mw Westone ES3X, and I believe this sounds better than when used with the stock AD708 buffers. I was having some goosebump moments last night.

 My top three so far are, not necessarily in order of best:

 1) Stock main LR opamp and buffers (AD4841-2/AD708)
 2) Then swap out stock buffers only (AD4841-2/AD8656) - may be my favorite
 3) Or move an 8656 to main LR opamp and bypass buffers (AD8656/bypass) - may still be better than stock


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *wolfen68* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Was the first reason that you have an imposingly dangerous looking system now? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Are you referring to his modded Stax SR-001? I've been feeding that addiction too.


----------



## HD_Dude

Thanks very much for the reviews...that's a lot of work!

 I appreciate it!


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Are you referring to his modded Stax SR-001? I've been feeding that addiction too. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

So how do you like the Silmic? I have found they can be a little warm but they are a nice cap. I have found that the Panosonic FC series does a great job and their high voltage caps are a real bargain.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So how do you like the Silmic? I have found they can be a little warm but they are a nice cap. I have found that the Panosonic FC series does a great job and their high voltage caps are a real bargain._

 

My SR-001 has blackgates and auricaps in it.


----------



## EFN

*jamato8:*
 The SILMIC are still too fresh to evaluate now. But there's hints that they are superior sounding to BGs and Nichicon MUSE, which prompted me to buy loads of SILMIC (60% of my rig will use them). Soon enough I will know if they are really good as I'd hope for 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.

*wolfen68:*
 Yep, I have two "primary" rigs in the making now. My ER-4S/K701 rig need some fat reduction and the D10 offers the slim profile that I have been looking for. The PCM1793 DAC was simply too huge for portable use. Larry review have just convinced me beyond anything else...


----------



## wolfen68

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Are you referring to his modded Stax SR-001? I've been feeding that addiction too. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	















_

 


 I've now decided that Head-fi should be nicknamed "A collection of people most likely to be apprehended at airports".


----------



## jamato8

Yeah, with all those nice wires, boxes and a nice red buttom! Hey buddy, where do YOU think you are goin'?

 I have gone to Europe, China and a few other places with my Monica II in an Altoid tin on my side and they blinked and it really looks like some sort of . . you know . . .


----------



## wuwhere

Put a sticker with this sign and the TSA agent might think that you are carrying a portable nuke weapon.


----------



## dazzer1975

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *wolfen68* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've now decided that Head-fi should be nicknamed "A collection of people most likely to be apprehended at airports"._

 

ROFLMAO


----------



## Luca T

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *EFN* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yep, I have two "primary" rigs in the making now. My ER-4S/K701 rig need some fat reduction and the D10 offers the slim profile that I have been looking for. *The PCM1793 DAC *was simply too huge for portable use. Larry review have just convinced me beyond anything else...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





_

 

Excuse me what is that DAC?


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *wolfen68* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've now decided that Head-fi should be nicknamed "A collection of people most likely to be apprehended at airports"._

 

Have you seen this?

Caution Flyers - Almost bought myself a strip-search - Head-Fi: Covering Headphones, Earphones and Portable Audio


----------



## Brighten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Have you seen this?

Caution Flyers - Almost bought myself a strip-search - Head-Fi: Covering Headphones, Earphones and Portable Audio_

 

Yeah, it was a great read.


----------



## cat6man

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *wolfen68* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've now decided that Head-fi should be nicknamed "A collection of people most likely to be apprehended at airports"._

 

you bet.............it is impossible for me to fly through frankfurt without having my music system swabbed down for a quick mass spec...........i'm 6 for 6 having my music rig tested at that airport


----------



## EFN

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Luca T* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Excuse me what is that DAC?_

 






 THAT big thing in the middle - no it's not a Nuke detonator as alleged by Jamato


----------



## Luca T

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *EFN* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_





 THAT big thing in the middle - no it's not a Nuke detonator as alleged by Jamato
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





_

 

Is it portable? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It's a DIY, How does it sound? Are you satisfied?


----------



## EFN

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Luca T* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is it portable? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It's a DIY, How does it sound? [size=x-large]Are you satisfied[/size]?_

 

You gotta be pulling me legs eh? here at Head-Fi there no such thing as "satisfied"....else this site would have closed years ago
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...dang even Senn HE90 owners can't conclusively decide if they are satisfied
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





*EDIT:*
 Yes those are DIY Kit from HiFiDIY.net. 12V DAC OS 8X. Pretty solid performance but the size is killing me.


----------



## Luca T

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *EFN* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You gotta be pulling me legs eh? here at Head-Fi there no such thing as "satisfied"....else this site would have closed years ago
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...dang even Senn HE90 owners can't conclusively decide if they are satisfied
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





*EDIT:*
 Yes those are DIY Kit from HiFiDIY.net. 12V DAC OS 8X. Pretty solid performance but the size is killing me._

 

Ehm ok sorry, I meant did you enjoy enough for a DIY(of course it's never enough
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)?

 Is it just DAC?

 How is the SQ of a DIY like that compared with an ibasso or a RSA?


----------



## khtse

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *EFN* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_





 THAT big thing in the middle - no it's not a Nuke detonator as alleged by Jamato
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





_

 

Imagine what would happen if you go through the airport security with this thing in your hand.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *khtse* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Imagine what would happen if you go through the airport security with this thing in your hand._

 

Yeah?

 That's what we've been talking about for the past 6 hours...


----------



## verjuno

great review 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 i was a good read


----------



## PatLogan

Hello HeadphoneAddict,

 Thank you for this wonderful review.
 I have a first price naim system at home, and i'm happy and broken...
 But i'd like to experiment listening to headphones.
 I bought a westone um1 to begin and would like now to have a good dac/amp for small price.
 Hesitate between nuforce icon mobile and superpro dac 707 (from what I read and to stay around 100$)
 I hesitate also to go on the diy side and make a bantamdac + cmoy.
 What would you suggest me ?
 The idea is only to have a better idea of what my um1 has in the belly and then take time to see if I want to go toward intras or electros...
 Thank for any advice.
 Pat


----------



## b_jay_k

in my limited browsing on head-fi so far, this is the most amazing review i've seen/read. based on this and the nuforce icon mobile thread i have ordered one (limited budget). i had a funny feeling the D10 was going to be pick of the iBasso crop, but to best all the others on test was a bit of a surprise. if only i could afford to spend a further £100 over the Nuforce. i will see how impressed i am with it after a couple hundred burn in hours.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PatLogan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hello HeadphoneAddict,

 Thank you for this wonderful review.
 I have a first price naim system at home, and i'm happy and broken...
 But i'd like to experiment listening to headphones.
 I bought a westone um1 to begin and would like now to have a good dac/amp for small price.
 Hesitate between nuforce icon mobile and superpro dac 707 (from what I read and to stay around 100$)
 I hesitate also to go on the diy side and make a bantamdac + cmoy.
 What would you suggest me ?
 The idea is only to have a better idea of what my um1 has in the belly and then take time to see if I want to go toward intras or electros...
 Thank for any advice.
 Pat_

 

All the amps in this review have a DAC to use them as an external USB soundcard with built-in amp. The Super Pro DAC707 is a DAC only, so you have to use it as a source to feed a separate amp. Without an amp section it will not drive headphones, it drives or feeds an amp (RCA output jacks to connect to full size amp, or use adapter to feed portable amp). The 707 is also not portable unless you build a 12v battery pack. However, the 707 has a better DAC than the Nuforce (or vivid V1).

 The Nuforce should be a good match for the UM1. Although I haven't heard a UM1 I have read it is not too bright sounding, and the Nuforce could help that. The Vivid V1 should also be a good $99 DAC with amp for the UM1. When using the Nuforce DAC to feed music to the Nuforce, I think it gets along well with a variety of headphones and in ear monitors and earphones, but Skylab thought it was too bright and forward. I disagree when used with the DAC and most headpones, although with the wrong source or headphones he can be right. Sometimes the Vivid V1 dac/amp can sound a little similar to the Nuforce, and has a slight coloration to it that actually hurts it's performance with the Grados while making it a great amp for the HD600. So, neither one is perfect, but both hard to beat for under $100 unless you go with an amp without a DAC to plug into the computer as an external sound card.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *b_jay_k* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_in my limited browsing on head-fi so far, this is the most amazing review i've seen/read. based on this and the nuforce icon mobile thread i have ordered one (limited budget). i had a funny feeling the D10 was going to be pick of the iBasso crop, but to best all the others on test was a bit of a surprise. if only i could afford to spend a further £100 over the Nuforce. i will see how impressed i am with it after a couple hundred burn in hours._

 

At the end of my rankings I mention all the amps are nice sounding. Basically if I was constrained by a budget, I'd be okay with having to use any of them, but some are better than others in the job of bringing a totally transparent performance to my ears. 

 For instance, I think the D10 driving headphones and IEM is very close to the $500 Apogee Duet that I am borrowing - with some phones one is better, and with other the other one is better (with Head-direct RE2 that I am burning in, the Duet sounds better with them, but with Westone ES3X or Westone 3 the D10 is everybit as good or slightly better). I haven't reviewed the Apogee as I consider it a desktop DAC/amp that wont run under it's own battery power like the others, but I put it among the top DAC/amps around. The only reason the Predator and 3MOVE (and often the XM5) rank as high as the amps with superior DAC's is that the quality and sound signature of their amps makes up for it, making you just want to listen more.


----------



## tinseljim

That was epic. I believe you have a real gift for this, both in explaining what you're hearing and making the technical details clear. 

 Thank you.


----------



## b_jay_k

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_At the end of my rankings I mention all the amps are nice sounding. Basically if I was constrained by a budget, I'd be okay with having to use any of them, but some are better than others in the job of bringing a totally transparent performance to my ears._

 

I remember you saying the Icon Mobile performed better through USB. I dont really need it for anything beyond being plugged into my PC but the fact that it is portable is a bonus. I'm hoping the PFE are good/transparent with it.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tinseljim* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That was epic. I believe you have a real gift for this, both in explaining what you're hearing and making the technical details clear._

 

X2
 [/PRAISE]


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *b_jay_k* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I remember you saying the Icon Mobile performed better through USB. I dont really need it for anything beyond being plugged into my PC but the fact that it is portable is a bonus. I'm hoping the PFE are good/transparent with it.



 X2
 [/PRAISE]_

 

The Phonak with grey filters are okay with the Nuforce if you feed it via USB and use the Complys tips, and it will be fairly transparent and detailed while sounding good.


----------



## bakhtiar

I am using PFEs (grey filters and silicone tips) with Nuforce Icon Mobile in USB mode all the time, and to my ears, it sounds clean, transparent and detailed. Enough to drive PFEs to another level, compared to PMPs, DAPs and my Thinkpad's headphones out.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bakhtiar* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am using PFEs (grey filters and silicone tips) with Nuforce Icon Mobile in USB mode all the time, and to my ears, it sounds clean, transparent and detailed. Enough to drive PFEs to another level, compared to PMPs, DAPs and my Thinkpad's headphones out._

 

I went back and tried the PFE and Nuforce with the grey filters and silicone tips, and via USB it still sounds okay without resorting to Complys tips. I just can't mix grey filters and grey silicone with a 4G Nano headphone out or with a 4G Nano line-out into Nuforce.


----------



## PatLogan

Hello,
 Is it possible to by-pass the amps for these products (especially the iBasso D10) to use them as dac only and plug the analog output to another amp ?
 ++


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PatLogan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hello,
 Is it possible to by-pass the amps for these products (especially the iBasso D10) to use them as dac only and plug the analog output to another amp ?
 ++_

 

You can bypass the amp on the D1 (discontinued but available as an OEm by a 3rd party), and also D3 and D10. The Micro Stack I reviewed, being separate but matching DAC/amp, can offer line out by itself too. All those offer a line out that does not send the signal through only the headphone out but also offer a line out. The Pico DAC-only will be line out without any amp, and I hope to test one of those - I expect it to rock as a DAC by removing any coloration of the amp section which is admittedly pretty neutral in my eyes already .

 Of all the the DAC that can only do USB, the Pico tops most most in detail, depth and space, with the Headroom USB matching it and the D10 USB and D3 USB coming very close. The Headroom and D10 via optical then gain the advantage and seem to be as good (or maybe slightly better with some music than) Pico with 16/44.1, but even better with native 24/96 files. 

 Still, the Pico does a respectable job using it as a preamp to feed a bigger amp, as does the D10. The D1 also sounded better via headphone out than line out and I used it as a pre-amp as well where it was then a match to the sound of the Headroom Micro DAC that replaced it. I would have never sold the D1 if I didn't need the SRD-7 Pro I was trading it for or if I didn't have the Micro DAC to fill it's shoes. As an optical DAC the D1 was excellent (but not nearly as good via USB).


----------



## PatLogan

Thank you for your answer.
 I made a synthesis of the specifications/price of these devices here:
usb dacs - Google Docs
 some elements are missing, but I need to read your long post...!
 It seems obvious that nuforce is ideal for small purses and D10 for bigger ones 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 It is funny to see that the diy bantamDAC has the same chip as Corda Move or XM5.
 As the nuforce is not a very good amp, is it worth using it with an iPod ? Maybe the FiiO5 is good enough for small purses...
 Cheers,
 Pat


----------



## Brighten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PatLogan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thank you for your answer.
 I made a synthesis of the specifications/price of these devices here:
usb dacs - Google Docs
 some elements are missing, but I need to read your long post...!
 It seems obvious that nuforce is ideal for small purses and D10 for bigger ones 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 It is funny to see that the diy bantamDAC has the same chip as Corda Move or XM5.
 As the nuforce is not a very good amp, is it worth using it with an iPod ? Maybe the *FiiO5* is good enough for small purses...
 Cheers,
 Pat_

 

I loathe the Fiio...


----------



## Jaw007

The Fiio amps are kids amp.IMOIt's just loud for low impedance cans,no quality sound.


----------



## PatLogan

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Brighten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I loathe the Fiio..._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jaw007* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The Fiio amps are kids amp.IMOIt's just loud for low impedance cans,no quality sound._

 

Well, I just admit I'm surprised to see that such a small and low price product could make better than the ipod stuff. I almost bought one yesterday to see if this is really the miracle some people say... maybe it's only interesting when you just want to have more juice on your output line... but sorry Larry, my post is out of your initial subject. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Cheers
 Pat


----------



## b_jay_k

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bakhtiar* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am using PFEs (grey filters and silicone tips) with Nuforce Icon Mobile in USB mode all the time, and to my ears, it sounds clean, transparent and detailed. Enough to drive PFEs to another level, compared to PMPs, DAPs and my Thinkpad's headphones out._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I went back and tried the PFE and Nuforce with the grey filters and silicone tips, and via USB it still sounds okay without resorting to Complys tips. I just can't mix grey filters and grey silicone with a 4G Nano headphone out or with a 4G Nano line-out into Nuforce._

 

I just recieved my Icon Mobile. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I use the PFE with medium silicones and black filters. Just today i tried the medium complys that Audeo supply and they are insufficient as far as isolation and "perfect fit" for me.
 As for the Icon Mobile, I think it sounds ok out of the box. Some of my reference tracks clearly lack a little low end clarity and body. Too bad I'm leaving the country for a two week holiday. No burn-in while I'm away 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Another thing: listening to the Icon Mobile USB I'm getting a split second silence every few minutes. Could this be my ASIO settings or is it because you're supposed to let it charge before you use it for the first time? (Sorry I know this is a review thread.)

 Edit: OK i figured out it's to do with ASIO.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *b_jay_k* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just recieved my Icon Mobile. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I use the PFE with medium silicones and black filters. Just today i tried the medium complys that Audeo supply and they are insufficient as far as isolation and "perfect fit" for me.
 As for the Icon Mobile, I think it sounds ok out of the box. Some of my reference tracks clearly lack a little low end clarity and body. Too bad I'm leaving the country for a two week holiday. No burn-in while I'm away 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Another thing: listening to the Icon Mobile USB I'm getting a split second silence every few minutes. Could this be my ASIO settings or is it because you're supposed to let it charge before you use it for the first time? (Sorry I know this is a review thread.)

 Edit: OK i figured out it's to do with ASIO._

 

Glad you got the ASIO part fixed.

 Out of the box mine only sounded "just okay". I would plug it into a computer USB now, plug in headphones, run music with your playlist set to repeat, and let it run the whole two weeks that you are away - you will be amazed at the change in sound when you get back and it has 300 hours on it.


----------



## a19als

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jaw007* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The Fiio amps are kids amp.IMOIt's just loud for low impedance cans,no quality sound._

 


 many people wanna try FiiO Amps! they are very success! but you right it is fun toys!


----------



## aroddick

Thanks so much for these reviews -- very helpful for those of us new to quality listening. I have a question regarding the D10. Having just picked up a pair of HD600s, I am trying to figure out a good way to benefit from their sound. I have the icon mobile, but it doesn't seem ideal. I am trying to decide the best way to get good sounds out of my macbook pro for under $400 (and it certainly does not have to be mobile). Do you think it is worth investing in the ibasso, or to look to desktop solutions? Are there any desktops dac/amps in that price range that have good synergy with the 600s?


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

If you are primarily focused on listening to the HD600 a desktop amp makes more sense, and a Travagans White with DAC will do a good job for $290, especially if you install OPA627 opamps on a SOIC 2:1 adapter. Of the portable dac/amps the 3MOVE drives HD600 best, followed by Vivid V1 and Pico. Another option is a Super Pro DAC707 from ALO Audio with a $300 tube amp like Dark Voice 336i or a Little Dot something. Tube hybrids are better with low impedance phones. 

 You can get good sound with HD600 and a less powerful amp, but they really come into their own with a powerful amp.


----------



## aroddick

Thank you sir. Great to have someone around with your fine-tuned ear. I will look into these options.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *aroddick* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thank you sir. Great to have someone around with your fine-tuned ear. I will look into these options._

 

Skylab and I have both done reviews on the Travagans white if you do a search - also all my reviews have links in my public profile "about me"


----------



## Nike T

hey I was wondering if you would recommend getting a DAC/AMP combo (like Move2) over getting a dedicated DAC (like gamma 1) and like a portable amp (like mini^3 or something of the like)? I'm using an ms1, and later I plan to get either an sr225 or an ad700.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Nike T* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_hey I was wondering if you would recommend getting a DAC/AMP combo (like Move2) over getting a dedicated DAC (like gamma 1) and like a portable amp (like mini^3 or something of the like)? I'm using an ms1, and later I plan to get either an sr225 or an ad700._

 

A dedicated DAC/amp should be fine with any of those headphones you mentioned. And, you can still use something like the D10, D3, Pico to drive a full size amp later if you upgrade to harder to drive phones.

 I'm listening to my HD600 with D10 and stock buffers plus LTC6141HV opamp and at full volume there is no clipping and volume is more than enough to cause hearing damage to my ears over time, even if not as powerful as the 3MOVE or Pico with them (maybe 3-4dB louder with 3MOVE is all).

 The Gamma 1 is a great DAC and if I got one I would get it with optical, coax and USB inputs - Beefy is selling one for $300 AUD (about $220 USD) and the line out can function as a limited headphone amp via USB with digital volume control. Wiatrob reported the headphone function to me, and I haven't tried that, but I did hear one as a DAC to a full size stat rig and it was a good as the D10 and Pico DAC sections.


----------



## Bojamijams

Just looked at the revised ranking. a $275 DAC/AMP is at the top? Very nice!


----------



## greenarrow

My 100 hrs plus 'cooked' K702 is performing well with my D2 Viper (rolled using LM6172 and THS4302. Bass sounds solid, mid and high are crisp and my non-audiophile ears are very happy. Just like to see any improvement when my K702 reaches the 600 hrs +.

 Will be trying out the LM4568 and LM6127 for a comparison.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *greenarrow* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My 100 hrs plus 'cooked' K702 is performing well with my D2 Viper (rolled using LM6172 and THS4302. Bass sounds solid, mid and high are crisp and my non-audiophile ears are very happy. Just like to see any improvement when my K702 reaches the 600 hrs +.

 Will be trying out the LM4568 and LM6127 for a comparison._

 

The LM4562/LM6172 combo will sound a little brighter and crisper and "airier" than the LM6172/THS4032, but it will be more solid or "grounded" sounding than swapping the two that you have in it to a THS4032/LM6172.


----------



## sfmatt

Just curious Larry, did you get to try 2xLM4562 in the Viper?


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sfmatt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just curious Larry, did you get to try 2xLM4562 in the Viper?_

 

No I didn't, sorry - I think the LM4562 needs something warmer to go with it, like pairing the LM6172 in ground with it. And, I never got to try the LM4562 in ground with anything because I got a PM asking me to please sell it, and I figured that I have some many amps I might as well make him happy.


----------



## sfmatt

No need to be sorry! You deserve many thanks for all your very insightful (and massive) insights on these portable amps.

 I have 2xLM6172 which I never bothered to try but now with 2xLM4562 on order I'll take the plunge and start rolling next week. Should be fun. And I'll avoid switching to hi gain with 2x LM6172


----------



## greenarrow

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The LM4562/LM6172 combo will sound a little brighter and crisper and "airier" than the LM6172/THS4032, but it will be more solid or "grounded" sounding than swapping the two that you have in it to a THS4032/LM6172._

 

Larry

 Is the combination of THS4032 (grd)/LM6172 (L/R) a sort of Predator clone? Besides these op amps, I have op amps like 6241HV, LM6655MA, LME49720MA, LM6172IN and the original 2 from the Viper. What are the possible combination of the above op amps to create a signature? No harm in having these in either the grd or the L/R sockets?

 noob in this sort of op amps rolling 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'm waiting for the arrival of my Compass in a couple of weeks time. Dying to see how the K702 pairs with this desk amp.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *greenarrow* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Larry

 Is the combination of THS4032 (grd)/LM6172 (L/R) a sort of Predator clone? 

That is kind of between a Predator and a Meier 2/3MOVE. 

 Besides these op amps, I have op amps like 6241HV, LM6655MA, LME49720MA, LM6172IN and the original 2 from the Viper. What are the possible combination of the above op amps to create a signature? No harm in having these in either the grd or the L/R sockets?

The LTC6241HV (L/R) LMH6655MA (ground) is a Predator clone with just a very very slight softness to the attach vs Predator, which some might call a plus because it makes it smoother. I like my scalpels sharp. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The LM6172 is also good in the ground channel and warmer than the THS4032 or LMH6655. I have not tried an LME49720 in the D2 Viper, although I did have some on hand.


 noob in this sort of op amps rolling 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'm waiting for the arrival of my Compass in a couple of weeks time. Dying to see how the K702 pairs with this desk amp._

 

See answers in red.


----------



## greenarrow

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_See answers in red._

 

Thanks for the pointers Larry. 

 Btw, can I connect the Viper to the Compass for a better listening environment?


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *greenarrow* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks for the pointers Larry. 

 Btw, can I connect the Viper to the Compass for a better listening environment?_

 

Sure.


----------



## xcluded

i wonder if it sounds silly by asking this...

 anyone use velcro on the amp ? does the paint on the amp get peel off ?

 thanks


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *xcluded* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i wonder if it sounds silly by asking this...

 anyone use velcro on the amp ? does the paint on the amp get peel off ?

 thanks 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

All my amps have velcro, and there is no paint peeling so far.


----------



## kostalex

I used velcroes with no problem with Meier Move (silver), TTVJ Millett Portable, iBasso D2, Headamp Pico (bronze).


----------



## djlemon

Hey there HeadphoneAddict,

 Firstly, i would like to thank you for the comprehensive reviews done not only in this thread but in Head-Fi itself, really appreciate it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Ok, i have a question, you knew this was coming right? haha

 Anyways, i hope you could point me in a direction between the XM5 and the Nuforce Icon Mobile.

 I understand that it is quite a leap from the Icon to the XM5 in terms of price. I am using a W3+UM56 with either an iPod Touch and 5.5G or with the Cowon D2. I used to own the Hornet but sold it off as i felt the bass was way too boomy for me to handle. 

 A few questions on my mind are:

 1) Would the XM5 and Icon Mobile present a less boomy bass as compared to the Hornet?

 2) If they do, would it be worth forking out the extra cash and waiting for the XM5? I am able to audition the Icon Mobile here and get it straight away but i just can't afford the extra buy. If i could, i would get the Icon to tide me through the wait for the XM5 if it were worth it.

 3) I may at times utilize the DAC function with either the MS Pros or Denon D5k, any comments about that?

 Sorry for the lengthy post..

 I thank you for your opinions in advance!


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *djlemon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hey there HeadphoneAddict,

 Firstly, i would like to thank you for the comprehensive reviews done not only in this thread but in Head-Fi itself, really appreciate it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Ok, i have a question, you knew this was coming right? haha

 Anyways, i hope you could point me in a direction between the XM5 and the Nuforce Icon Mobile.

 I understand that it is quite a leap from the Icon to the XM5 in terms of price. I am using a W3+UM56 with either an iPod Touch and 5.5G or with the Cowon D2. I used to own the Hornet but sold it off as i felt the bass was way too boomy for me to handle. 

 A few questions on my mind are:

 1) Would the XM5 and Icon Mobile present a less boomy bass as compared to the Hornet?

 2) If they do, would it be worth forking out the extra cash and waiting for the XM5? I am able to audition the Icon Mobile here and get it straight away but i just can't afford the extra buy. If i could, i would get the Icon to tide me through the wait for the XM5 if it were worth it.

 3) I may at times utilize the DAC function with either the MS Pros or Denon D5k, any comments about that?

 Sorry for the lengthy post..

 I thank you for your opinions in advance! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

The XM5 is the obvious choice for you here. Save up some more, and get a 1st aid kit for your wallet!


----------



## djlemon

Haha ok man, thanks! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 *SHOUTS a loud sorry to my bank account*!


----------



## elbuzzard

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_At the end of my rankings I mention all the amps are nice sounding. Basically if I was constrained by a budget, I'd be okay with having to use any of them, but some are better than others in the job of bringing a totally transparent performance to my ears. 

 For instance, I think the D10 driving headphones and IEM is very close to the $500 Apogee Duet that I am borrowing - with some phones one is better, and with other the other one is better (with Head-direct RE2 that I am burning in, the Duet sounds better with them, but with Westone ES3X or Westone 3 the D10 is everybit as good or slightly better). I haven't reviewed the Apogee as I consider it a desktop DAC/amp that wont run under it's own battery power like the others, but I put it among the top DAC/amps around. The only reason the Predator and 3MOVE (and often the XM5) rank as high as the amps with superior DAC's is that the quality and sound signature of their amps makes up for it, making you just want to listen more._

 

i was wondering how the duet stacked up against these others.


----------



## Anouk

Hello everyone,
 Well, my ibasso d10 arrived yesterday afternoon. I will be pairing it with the ultrasone pro900 and my laptop or my iriver, which still has to arrive so its just my laptop for the time being. I must say the built quality is better then i expected although the ibasso is a bit longer then I expected it to be as well. I hope it works well with the pro900, i have to put my home amp in high gain for it to produce good volume, but the volume knob is only at a low setting. I will try the ibasso later today, i still have to figure out the buttons, i actually really like the volume/on-off combo, at least i am always certain now that the amp is turned off.
 I really hope that this combo will be my final portable setup, or maybe the `10 with the westone 3 that arrived yesterday as well.
 Greetings, Anouk,


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Anouk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hello everyone,
 Well, my ibasso d10 arrived yesterday afternoon. I will be pairing it with the ultrasone pro900 and my laptop or my iriver, which still has to arrive so its just my laptop for the time being. I must say the built quality is better then i expected although the ibasso is a bit longer then I expected it to be as well. I hope it works well with the pro900, i have to put my home amp in high gain for it to produce good volume, but the volume knob is only at a low setting. I will try the ibasso later today, i still have to figure out the buttons, i actually really like the volume/on-off combo, at least i am always certain now that the amp is turned off.
 I really hope that this combo will be my final portable setup, or maybe the `10 with the westone 3 that arrived yesterday as well.
 Greetings, Anouk,_

 

If you need help picking opamps to tune the sound, if not perfect for your Pro 900 or W3, just let us know here or in the big D10 thread by jamato8 and we'll be happy to help.


----------



## Anouk

Hello, oops this is actually the wrong thread. I intended to post in 'the big' thread, must have been way too early for me. Thats what you get with insomnia! Will see you over in the other thread! 
 Greetings, Anouk,


----------



## JPIndustrie

I must say. I'm listening to the Westone 3's through the D10, through the digital optical out of my Macbook Pro and the sound is so clear. Amazing. I don't know if I could go back to analog headphone out. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The D10 is an amazing product, especially for the price - the slight noise issue just holds it back.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JPIndustrie* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I must say. I'm listening to the Westone 3's through the D10, through the digital optical out of my Macbook Pro and the sound is so clear. Amazing. I don't know if I could go back to analog headphone out. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The D10 is an amazing product, especially for the price - the slight noise issue just holds it back._

 

I tried going back tonight just for grins, and while the headphone out into ALO Amphora is nice, the D10 DAC is clearly superior in every way.


----------



## bakhtiar

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JPIndustrie* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I must say. I'm listening to the Westone 3's through the D10, through the digital optical out of my Macbook Pro and the sound is so clear. Amazing. I don't know if I could go back to analog headphone out. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The D10 is an amazing product, especially for the price - the slight noise issue just holds it back._

 

Now, you are enjoying the D10 at the *fullest* potential. Congratulation.


----------



## thechungster

Ooh, a nice review on the Nuforce icon mobile


----------



## qib

Headphoneaddict- Would you by any chance have a voyager to compare with the ibasso d10? Thanks.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *qib* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Headphoneaddict- Would you by any chance have a voyager to compare with the ibasso d10? Thanks._

 

Nope, sorry.


----------



## bakhtiar

I don't know where to put this post, but since I bought Icon Mobile and iBasso D10 based on this thread, here we go 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





 How do we comparing our earphones or amps?

 There are several ways for it.
 1a) Source -> Earphones.
 1b) Source -> Amp -> Earphones

 Here, with one source, we need the remember the sound from earphones, before we replace it with others. It is bit tedious, and sometime we tend to miss a litte details.

 2) Source -> Amp => Earphones(A) + Earphones(B)
 Here, we can compare directly Earphones A and Earphones B, by inserting the same channel from both phones in our ears. The sound will be in monorual, but, because of the earphone's sound's signature, it may produce differend soundstage 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. There are amps with 2 headphones out, example Nuforce IM. But, the problem is both earphones have different sensitivity, and the volume level will be mismatch.

 3) Different media.
 Laptop -USB->DAC/AMP(A)->Earphones(A)&
 Laptop -SPDIF->DAC/AMP(B)->Earphones(B)
 But, sometime we cannot send the same audio output to different HW at the same time.

 Now, here is my way to test 2 earphones and 2 USB-DAC-AMPs at the SAME time 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 4) Laptop -USB1-> DAC/AMP(A) -> Earphones(A)&
 Laptop -USB2-> DAC/AMP(B) -> Earphones(B)&
 Laptop -> Earphones(C) (optional)

 2 USB-DAC-AMPs are connected to the PC/Laptop and with a sound driver configuration, in my case is ALSA on GNU/Linux OS, sound data can be send to BOTH USB-DAC-AMPs, or to ALL sound output, simultaneously . So I can control the volume level to match both earphones SPL. 


 Diana Krall : From This Moment On album : FLAC. No EQ. Volume level were matched at vocal.

 LEFT : PFE + D10
 RIGHT : NE-7M + IM

 Left : Deeper bass. Detailed vocal texture. Strings and percussions were much clearer and cleaner. 
 Right : Humming bass. Vocal = Almost _invisible_, Louder 'sch'

 The LEFT setup sound so musical 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, but the RIGHT side just humming, and 'invisible'. There were sound on the RIGHT, but difficult distinguish what was it. 

 Now, I swapped earphones and amps.

 LEFT : NE-7M + D10
 RIGHT : PFE + IM

 Left : Vocal = Nice and smooth, More musical intruments can be heard. Treble = clear and clean. 
 Right : Bass=reccessed. Piano almost as good as LEFT. Vocal=Grainy. Trumpets were much clearer. 

 Aha... now the LEFT setup were sounded better.

 Conclusion. AMP do make differences, BIG differences. Especially in micro details and seperations. Actually, it is quite difficult to test this way 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, but, the result is instantaneous and fun too 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





 This picture was taken during my first attempt of the simultaneous earphones and amps comparison.





 Thank you.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bakhtiar* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't know where to put this post, but since I bought Icon Mobile and iBasso D10 based on this thread, here we go 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			






 How do we comparing our earphones or amps?

 There are several ways for it.
 1a) Source -> Earphones.
 1b) Source -> Amp -> Earphones

 Here, with one source, we need the remember the sound from earphones, before we replace it with others. It is bit tedious, and sometime we tend to miss a litte details.

 2) Source -> Amp => Earphones(A) + Earphones(B)
 Here, we can compare directly Earphones A and Earphones B, by inserting the same channel from both phones in our ears. The sound will be in monorual, but, because of the earphone's sound's signature, it may produce differend soundstage 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. There are amps with 2 headphones out, example Nuforce IM. But, the problem is both earphones have different sensitivity, and the volume level will be mismatch.

 3) Different media.
 Laptop -USB->DAC/AMP(A)->Earphones(A)&
 Laptop -SPDIF->DAC/AMP(B)->Earphones(B)
 But, sometime we cannot send the same audio output to different HW at the same time.

 Now, here is my way to test 2 earphones and 2 USB-DAC-AMPs at the SAME time 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 4) Laptop -USB1-> DAC/AMP(A) -> Earphones(A)&
 Laptop -USB2-> DAC/AMP(B) -> Earphones(B)&
 Laptop -> Earphones(C) (optional)

 2 USB-DAC-AMPs are connected to the PC/Laptop and with a sound driver configuration, in my case is ALSA on GNU/Linux OS, sound data can be send to BOTH USB-DAC-AMPs, or to ALL sound output, simultaneously . So I can control the volume level to match both earphones SPL. 


 Diana Krall : From This Moment On album : FLAC. No EQ. Volume level were matched at vocal.

 LEFT : PFE + D10
 RIGHT : NE-7M + IM

 Left : Deeper bass. Detailed vocal texture. Strings and percussions were much clearer and cleaner. 
 Right : Humming bass. Vocal = Almost invisible, Louder 'sch'

 The LEFT setup sound so musical 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, but the RIGHT side just humming, and 'invisible'. There were sound on the RIGHT, but difficult distinguish what was it. 

 Now, I swapped earphones and amps.

 LEFT : NE-7M + D10
 RIGHT : PFE + IM

 Left : Vocal = Nice and smooth, More musical intruments can be heard. Treble = clear and clean. 
 Right : Bass=reccessed. Piano almost as good as LEFT. Vocal=Grainy. Trumpets were much clearer. 

 Aha... now the LEFT setup were sounded better.

 Conclusion. AMP do make differences, BIG differences. Especially in micro details and seperations. Actually, it is quite difficult to test this way 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, but, the result is instantaneous and fun too 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





 This picture was taken during my first attempt of the simultaneous earphones and amps comparison.





 Thank you._

 

Interesting methodology, which I think I have tried at least once before. I think if you listened to left and right with one amp and then listened to the left and right with the other amp, regardless of which IEM or headphone you used that you would still decide that the D10 amp was better than than the Nuforce amp.

 Also, did you notice that your right ear heard both IEM, but it never heard the D10, and your left ear never heard the Nuforce? Ooops. What if your ears hear differently? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (joking)


----------



## clasam

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bakhtiar* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_-snip-


 How do we comparing our earphones or amps?

 There are several ways for it.

 -snip again-

 2) Source -> Amp => Earphones(A) + Earphones(B)
 Here, we can compare directly Earphones A and Earphones B, by inserting the same channel from both phones in our ears. The sound will be in monorual, but, because of the earphone's sound's signature, it may produce differend soundstage 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. There are amps with 2 headphones out, example Nuforce IM. But, the problem is both earphones have different sensitivity, and the volume level will be mismatch._

 

Never woulda thought to do that. Must be a kinda weird sensation, but hey, if you can pull it off, you can pull it off!

 I'm going to go out on a limb and say you are one of the amazing few of the human race who can walk and chew gum at the same time; pat your head and rub your stomach; move one hand clockwise, one hand counterclockwise.

 Well done, sir, well done.


----------



## clasam

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Interesting methodology, which I think I have tried at least once before. I think if you listened to left and right with one amp and then listened to the left and right with the other amp, regardless of which IEM or headphone you used that you would still decide that the D10 amp was better than than the Nuforce amp.

 Also, did you notice that your right ear heard both IEM, but it never heard the D10, and your left ear never heard the Nuforce? Ooops. What if your ears hear differently? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (joking)_

 

Once again, Larry, you out-post me by mere moments. 

 *practices clicking submit reply button*


----------



## bakhtiar

Yes, there will be a small confusion here. What I meant by LEFT and RIGHT is not the L/R audio channels. I put my D10 on my LEFT side, and IM on my RIGHT side. During the audition, *left channel* from D10 was in my *left ear*, and the *lleft channel* from the IM was in my *right ear*. 

 So, the LEFT is what I heard from the LEFT setup in my left ear, and the RIGHT is what I heard from the RIGHT setup in my right ear.

 Example
 D10 => PFE -left channel -> left ear
 IM => NE-7M -left channel -> right ear

 Yes, it do sound awkward, but, but the sensation was different and quite fun way to compare earphones 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 5) Distribution amplifier : single in, multiple out
 Source -> distributor => amp(A) + amp(B) +amp(C) + amp(D) + ...

 This one should be the simplest way to to the amp x earphones comparisons. By the way we only have 2 ears, so 2 amps should be enough 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bakhtiar* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes, there will be a small confusion here. What I meant by LEFT and RIGHT is not the L/R audio channels. I put my D10 on my LEFT side, and IM on my RIGHT side. During the audition, *left channel* from D10 was in my *left ear*, and the *lleft channel* from the IM was in my *right ear*. 

 So, the LEFT is what I heard from the LEFT setup in my left ear, and the RIGHT is what I heard from the RIGHT setup in my right ear.

 Yes, it do sound awkward, but, but the sensation was different and quite fun way to compare earphones 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 5) Distribution amplifier : single in, multiple out
 Source -> distributor => amp(A) + amp(B) +amp(C) + amp(D) + ...

 This one should be the simplest way to to the amp x earphones comparisons. By the way we only have 2 ears, so 2 amps should be enough 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




..._

 

Then what I said, "your right ear heard both IEM, but it never heard the D10, and your left ear never heard the Nuforce." is still correct. Time for me to get some sleep now, before clasam can post.


----------



## bakhtiar

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Then what I said, "your right ear heard both IEM, but it never heard the D10, and your left ear never heard the Nuforce." is still correct. Time for me to get some sleep now, before clasam can post. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 


*CORRECT* !!!
 Yes, my left ear only listened to D10, and right ear to IM.


----------



## thechungster

Just to clarify, since I lost that post about you talking which amp was best in the IE8 thread, you did say the nuforce icon mobile was good with the IE8s right? What made it so good?


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *thechungster* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just to clarify, since I lost that post about you talking which amp was best in the IE8 thread, you did say the nuforce icon mobile was good with the IE8s right? What made it so good?_

 

The Nuforce filled in some of the missing treble and mids, and took away some of the bass bloat on the IE8. The Vivid V1 was slightly better with the IE8, and the D10 with AD8599 opamp was the best with the IE8. Once I got past 440 hours the bass on the IE8 was tolerable with most amps, as long as the amp has good treble presence and extension. The 3MOVE still has a little too much bass with the IE8, but the mids and highs are good enough to overlook that. The ALO RWA Amphora is also now very good with IE8.

 I will have to retry all the amps with IE8 now that I have over 600 hours on them and they haven't changed in over 150 hours of use. They took longer to burn-in than any other headphone except my Ultrasone iCans. My HD600 only took 200 hours, and most Ultrasones only needed about 250, while my SR-325i took about 100 hours.


----------



## thechungster

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The Nuforce filled in some of the missing treble and mids, and took away some of the bass bloat on the IE8. The Vivid V1 was slightly better with the IE8, and the D10 with AD8599 opamp was the best with the IE8. Once I got past 440 hours the bass on the IE8 was tolerable with most amps, as long as the amp has good treble presence and extension. The 3MOVE still has a little too much bass with the IE8, but the mids and highs are good enough to overlook that. The ALO RWA Amphora is also now very good with IE8.

 I will have to retry all the amps with IE8 now that I have over 600 hours on them and they haven't changed in over 150 hours of use. They took longer to burn-in than any other headphone except my Ultrasone iCans. My HD600 only took 200 hours, and most Ultrasones only needed about 250, while my SR-325i took about 100 hours._

 

But the nuforce didn't take any bass impact away from the IE8s? If it did, did turning up the bass dial resolve this?


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *thechungster* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_But the nuforce didn't take any bass impact away from the IE8s? If it did, did turning up the bass dial resolve this?_

 

It took away the bass bloat, which includes some of the impact I guess. But IE8 still had good bass off the Nuforce as do other bass-heavy phones like D2000 and Edition 9.


----------



## qusp

well larry, I have to totally agree wit your new #1 position, and I had the same feeling after only a few days of owning the D10 and that is that the D10 pwned the rest of the DAC/AMP competition. I havent heard as many as you have, but having spent a good amount of time with the pico and done some A/B ing with pico vs predator, ibasso D2, 2move. I new right away that the D10 was superior; and that was with the stock op-amps. now with LMH4032 and AD8656 as buffers or AD8397 with AD8656 buffers (looking forward to HiFlight's new fave combo too of OPA2228 with AD8656 buffers. I feel that it is no contest. plus the ability to feed my Lisa III via lineout means I can drive even some of the more demanding HPs with awesome SQ. the detail retrieval of this little fella is fantastic. just passed 170hrs of burn-in and it continues to open up. loving my new #1. and I tell ya; running the #1 portable DAC with the #1 portable amp is an experience to behold and I think myself lucky that I live in this time where I can have this sort of audio with me wherever I go. the D10 DAC equals or betters the performance of my secondary audio card RME HAMMERFALL 9632 at least for driving headphones anyway. 

 GOLDFRAPP sounds amazing with this guy and I have also been enjoying the high rez flac from Nine Inch nails 'the slip' in 24/96 audio via optical and rockbox. simply stunning. D10 is the only one that is able to handle high rez audio natively. and hopefully more and more music will be released in this format. taking an old dog (iHP120) into the future. one high rez Flac album is 900+mb so i'm gonna need that 120gb drive in it to cope. or for SDHC to become more available


----------



## thechungster

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It took away the bass bloat, which includes some of the impact I guess. But IE8 still had good bass off the Nuforce as do other bass-heavy phones like D2000 and Edition 9._

 

Hmm, I guess I wouldn't mind that.


----------



## qusp

I think it is admirable the amount of time and energy you put into the D10 review larry; really amazing and kudos is due for the effort you put in to help people with neither the time, nor money to experiment with all the myriad of options we have available to us lately. your unerring devotion to helping thie people, both noob and experienced to find what is most suitable for them is amazing

 this review of course was pivotal, as it meant the possible and actual change of your #1 rating. therefor you had to be sure that you covered all options. Also as the D10 has so many options for input and output; and that meant that you were faced with many more variables that had to be assessed in such a thorough manner.

 great job


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *qusp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think it is admirable the amount of time and energy you put into the D10 review larry; really amazing and kudos is due for the effort you put in to help people with neither the time, nor money to experiment with all the myriad of options we have available to us lately. your unerring devotion to helping thie people, both noob and experienced to find what is most suitable for them is amazing

 this review of course was pivotal, as it meant the possible and actual change of your #1 rating. therefor you had to be sure that you covered all options. Also as the D10 has so many options for input and output; and that meant that you were faced with many more variables that had to be assessed in such a thorough manner.

 great job 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Thanks! It _was_ exhausting.


----------



## sfmatt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *qusp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_the D10 DAC equals or betters the performance of my secondary audio card RME HAMMERFALL 9632 at least for driving headphones anyway_

 

I'm curious about how you tested the D10 against the 9632. I have the D2 Viper with rolled opamps and I find that using the Viper as an amp from the headphone output of the 9632 is the best combination. The headphone output of the 9632 is underpowered so it washes out the bass. The D2 as a DAC + amp is better but the D2 DAC is not as resolving as the 9632. It's also slightly harsher in the treble.

 Did you compare D10/SPDIF and/or D10/USB vs 9632+D10 as an amp (with analog in)?


----------



## qusp

tested via optical and coax both from my G5 and actually from the RME itself. both as dac/amp and also with both amps feeding my Lisa III. like this I was able to have .

 so tested
 iriver->ibasso D10 

 very nice output, but lacks the air and slight organic edge of the lisa III amp section. although with burn-in and my latest set of op-amps, im getting a little closer SQ wise, but still lags behind in sheer power and authority.

 iriver->D10->Lisa III (this is my every day portable combo if I have my bag)


 wow, i've never heard portable audio sound this detailed. with W3, its very involving.. I missed my bus stop the other night and ended up 10 minutes up the road before I realized.

 DIYMOD 5.5G-> teflon VCAP dock->D10

 nothing to be sneezed at either and with these op-amps its actually not worse, for the same reason I prefer the D10 HP out, to the HP out on my 9632 for shear musical involvement and musicality. the DIYMOD is technically inferior to the external dac rig, but there are still some types of music I prefer it with; for example it sounds better with my SE530 and rock than the D10 rig does.

 9632->D10 via optical
 G5->(optical)D10 
 G5->(optical) D10->Lisa III
 9632->optical->D10->Lisa III


 RME->HP out
 RME->Lisa III via jena/cryo silver RCA (analogue)
 RME->D10 (analogue)

 I didnt bother via USB as I find it to be inferior. this wasnt an oprganized test; more like extensive listening durig burn-in 

 the DAC spec on the RME is better no question, but its just not as enjoyable and I actually find the soundstage with the D10 fed from the RME then to Lisa superb. the RME has a really great clock and supplies a really nice sounding digital output. so much better than the iriver. I find with rolled op-amps in the D10 that I can achieve more the sound I like; where as i'm stuck with the RME sound sig of the 9632 headamp that is. 

 when using the D10 as dac only to lisa III it loses out to the RME used the same way, but not by a huge margin. the RME is technically superior in almost every way, But I think you got defensive before actually reading what I wrote

 y as a dac, but rthe HP out is a bit disappointing compared to the other 2 options here; and thats no surprize as the RME is designed to be as flat as possible, although I dont find the RME gear to be as dry as some pro audio gear.


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *qusp* 
_the D10 DAC equals or betters the performance of my secondary audio card RME HAMMERFALL 9632 *at least for driving headphones anyway.*_

 

I just find the D10 to be more involving and musical than the RME is. and if I want full-on high-rez audio I have my RME Fireface 400. the D10 dac chip is the same as the D2, but the amp section is miles ahead IMO and it seems some respcted reviewers have agreed and with LMH4032 and AD8656, the SQ is really very good.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

I need to try the LMH4032 and AD8656 in the D10 in the next couple of days.


----------



## n0ah

i'm probably obsessing over this a bit too much but how much better is the optical out over s/pdif if i'd just be using the D10 for my laptop? i ask because mine doesn't come with optical. hope i'm not missing out on too much.

 also what's a nice high end spdif cable i can purchase for the unit or does the d10 come with one already?


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *n0ah* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i'm probably obsessing over this a bit too much but how much better is the optical out over s/pdif if i'd just be using the D10 for my laptop? i ask because mine doesn't come with optical. hope i'm not missing out on too much.

 also what's a nice high end spdif cable i can purchase for the unit or does the d10 come with one already?_

 

Optical and coax ARE S/PDIF, and USB is USB. The D10 comes with a decent optical cable, or you can go to Sys Concept Inc. Fiber Optic Products Attenuators, Patch cords, Laser Diodes, Connectors, MP3, Toslink, Hybrid Adapter and more and have them build you a nice custom optical cable. Any decent 75 ohm coax cable should work off the shelf.

 Regarding your other questions - my answer is in my reviews, but I will restate it here for you: The D10 USB DAC is very close to the D10 optical DAC but very slightly below it, while the gap widens if you are using the D10 optical with native 24/96 studio masters. For normal 16/44.1 ripped CD music the difference is very small and the D10 is very good with USB audio for it's size and price (not quite up to the Apogee mini-DAC, Stello DA100 or PS Audio DL3 desktop USB DACs). 

 The D10 USB DAC is also better than most of the other portable USB DAC in the review, except for the Pico and Headroom Micro DAC with which it is very close but does not exceed. The Pico seems to sound better to me when used as a preamp to drive a full size amp than it does driving headphones, so I really prefer to use it to bridge my Macbook to a full size rig when I use it (so, I've ordered a Pico DAC-only as well). I've read of people trashing the Micro DAC USB for jitter, but with my Macbook the Micro DAC with Micro Amp via USB sounded almost identical to the Pico. The Micro DAC had a very slight edge over the Pico with optical input when both were used for portable listening and not used for feeding better desktop amps. I have not and don't have time to compare the D10/Micro DAC/Pico when feeding USB audio to a full size rig like my Woo GES/Stax O2. 

 Lastly, I would also say the the D10 USB DAC section is slightly more detailed than the USB DAC in the iBasso D2 or D3, but some of that could be due to what I am hearing as the amp section improves when I go up to better models. The D10 USB DAC does have slightly more micro-detail, ambience, air and space (and refinement) when compared vs the 3MOVE, Predator, XM5, Nuforce, V1, Lyrix or D1 - which are still very nice but not on the same level.


----------



## n0ah

so there's no difference between optical and coax? i have an hp laptop in question and do know that "s/pdif" is built into my headphone jack on this unit but when looking up "optical toslink" cords there's no way it fits a standard headphone jack so i'm guessing coax is what my laptop supports.


----------



## b_jay_k

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *n0ah* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_so there's no difference between optical and coax? i have an hp laptop in question and do know that "s/pdif" is built into my headphone jack on this unit but when looking up "optical toslink" cords there's no way it fits a standard headphone jack so i'm guessing coax is what my laptop supports._

 

i think what you are getting at is not what's in discussion here. i have an x-fi soundcard which also supports s/pdif but i would need to buy a digital I/O module to get the coax and optical connections. i would still need to decide which is better of the two but i doubt the sound quality is going to be great with this kind of signal passage (comments anyone?). i'm guessing the scenario is the same for laptop users with built in digital support coming from a mini jack. this is why i bought a usb dac, bypassing the soundcard altogether and, in the process, making it redundant


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *n0ah* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_so there's no difference between optical and coax? i have an hp laptop in question and do know that "s/pdif" is built into my headphone jack on this unit but when looking up "optical toslink" cords there's no way it fits a standard headphone jack so i'm guessing coax is what my laptop supports._

 

You might have a mini-optical inside the headphone jack like the Macbook and iRiver H140 have, and you just need a small plastic "toslink-mini" plug adapter. A mini-optical plug looks like a headphone plug, and toslink is kind-of a square plug with two corners shaved or rounded.

 The only time I've ever seen a mini-coax was (1) on a portable TV that used the mini-coax jack and came with a plug adapter that accepted a two wire TV antenna and the adapter plugged into the TV mini-input, and (2) Headroom Micro DAC has a mini-coax input, and it uses one of those mini-RCA cables like the portable DVD players use for video out (video cables are usually 75 ohm).


----------



## qusp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *b_jay_k* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i think what you are getting at is not what's in discussion here. i have an x-fi soundcard which also supports s/pdif but i would need to buy a digital I/O module to get the coax and optical connections. i would still need to decide which is better of the two but i doubt the sound quality is going to be great with this kind of signal passage (comments anyone?). i'm guessing the scenario is the same for laptop users with built in digital support coming from a mini jack. this is why i bought a usb dac, bypassing the soundcard altogether and, in the process, making it redundant 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

no what he is probably looking at is a mini/toslink combo jack; thats whats on most laptops; there is a few that are coax (mini coax), but they are rare. an X-FI feeding the D10- will be absolutely fine. you ARE bypassing the dac in that case. in that scenario you are simply using the audio card as the output for your computer as transport. sure it may contain slightly more jitter than a high end card or external device, but the D10 has clock recovery I think, so I really dont think its so much of an issue; I did and do find that my RME supplies a better signal than my iriver; but we are talking about a pro-sumer audio card here. optical will always sound better than USB IMO unless its a POC dac you are feeding with it and if you compare using USB on that same dac it will always sound slightly worse and in some casdes significantly worse. USB is more prone to interference and jitter IME


----------



## n0ah

what's the best toslink-mini adapter i can buy? and that's all i'll need since the d10 comes with the optical cord or is there anything else needed to cover bases? do all of you use the stock optical cord or are there reasonably priced ones that are better out there?


----------



## wolfen68

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *n0ah* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_...do all of you use the stock optical cord or are there reasonably priced ones that are better out there?_

 

Same answer you've gotten before...and highly recommended: 

Sys Concept Inc. Fiber Optic Products Attenuators, Patch cords, Laser Diodes, Connectors, MP3, Toslink, Hybrid Adapter and more


----------



## sfmatt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *qusp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ ... I think you got defensive before actually reading what I wrote ..._

 

Sorry if I came across as defensive, it was not my intention.

 Thank you very much that was just the kind of information I was looking for. It's good to know that with SPDIF the D10 SQ can be as good if not better than the 9632 + D10 (as an amp only).
 If my laptop had SPDIF output I would get a D10 to replace my D2 but for USB output it's not worth it. As for the amp sections of the D10 and Viper, once you start rolling opamps they're close enough. But I'll make sure to have SPDIF on my next laptop


----------



## b_jay_k

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *qusp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_no what he is probably looking at is a mini/toslink combo jack; thats whats on most laptops..._

 

oh, ok. i've never owned a laptop


----------



## n0ah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *wolfen68* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Same answer you've gotten before...and highly recommended: 

Sys Concept Inc. Fiber Optic Products Attenuators, Patch cords, Laser Diodes, Connectors, MP3, Toslink, Hybrid Adapter and more_

 

which one though? and which of the two toslink adapters i see?


----------



## wolfen68

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *n0ah* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_which one though? and which of the two toslink adapters i see?_

 

Cables:

 Toslink to Toslink: Sys Concept Inc. Fiber Optic Products Attenuators, Patch cords, Laser Diodes, Connectors, MP3, Toslink, Hybrid Adapter and more: Toslink to Toslink Premium Optical Cable 0.05 to 50 meters

 Mini to Toslink (or Toslink to Mini): Sys Concept Inc. Fiber Optic Products Attenuators, Patch cords, Laser Diodes, Connectors, MP3, Toslink, Hybrid Adapter and more: MiniPlug to Toslink Premium Optical Cable 0.05 to 50 meters

 Adapter:

 Toslink to Mini Adapter: Sys Concept Inc. Fiber Optic Products Attenuators, Patch cords, Laser Diodes, Connectors, MP3, Toslink, Hybrid Adapter and more: Adapter - Toslink to MiniPlug

 You mentioned Toslink to Mini adapter...make sure that's what you need as there is also a Mini to Toslink variant as well. It really comes down to which cable you have and what configuration you want. If you are going to use the stock D10 optical cable with an H1xx, the one I linked is the one you'll need. If you wish to make the connection more "portable", then a different combination of parts may apply.


----------



## qusp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *n0ah* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_which one though? and which of the two toslink adapters i see?_

 

for portable cables you need either a short U shaped one which has a toslink one end and mini the other and if you want to make a low profile version, you need to buy a short U toslink to toslink and buy a right angle toslink to toslink and a RA toslink to mini as the RA only come with a toslink female; no minis available. plus you have to take into consideration what case if any you are going top use on your H1XX and supply spec to them. if you tell them at sysconcept what you want to do, they are very obliging and have dealt with many head-fiers buying cables for this exact purpose. they know what size to make them and what you need. I cant recommend them enough.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *qusp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_for portable cables you need either a short U shaped one which has a toslink one end and mini the other and if you want to make a low profile version, you need to buy a short U toslink to toslink and buy a right angle toslink to toslink and a RA toslink to mini as the RA only come with a toslink female; no minis available. plus you have to take into consideration what case if any you are going top use on your H1XX and supply spec to them. if you tell them at sysconcept what you want to do, they are very obliging and have dealt with many head-fiers buying cables for this exact purpose. they know what size to make them and what you need. I cant recommend them enough._

 

Remind people that the cable is not actually a "u" shape. It comes as a short straight cable, and you gently bend it into the U shape to plug into the amp and iRiver. When not plugged in it remains straight.


----------



## nyjets28

is there a point to getting dac/amp combo for a sansa fuze. if i understand correctly, the dac portion wouldn't do anything for the DAP unless it has a digital out?

 i was thinking about getting the icon mobile, but then i thought of this.


----------



## average_joe

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nyjets28* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_is there a point to getting dac/amp combo for a sansa fuze. if i understand correctly, the dac portion wouldn't do anything for the DAP unless it has a digital out?

 i was thinking about getting the icon mobile, but then i thought of this._

 

A DAC won't benefit a Fuze. Other DAPs found here would be able to benefit, but the amp will need to have the right type of input to match the DAP output. Of course, without a line out dock for the Fuze, and amp will not improve the sound much, if at all. I thought the Icon Mobile actually sounded worse from my Fuze HP out than just the HP out.


----------



## bakhtiar

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nyjets28* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_is there a point to getting dac/amp combo for a sansa fuze. if i understand correctly, the dac portion wouldn't do anything for the DAP unless it has a digital out?

 i was thinking about getting the icon mobile, but then i thought of this._

 

Yes, correct, but, Icon Mobile only supports USB Audio from laptop/pc/... ,and not digital out (optic or coax) from DAP/PCDP/PDVDP. 

 Icon Mobile is a decent amp, but not quite good synergy/match with bright IEMs, such as PFEs. You may find the sound is too forward. Based on tstarn06 opinions, better get the iBasso T4 or miniboxE+ . Also one more thing, for better SQ, use amp with line out/LOD. 

 Thank you.


----------



## n0ah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *wolfen68* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Cables:

 Toslink to Toslink: Sys Concept Inc. Fiber Optic Products Attenuators, Patch cords, Laser Diodes, Connectors, MP3, Toslink, Hybrid Adapter and more: Toslink to Toslink Premium Optical Cable 0.05 to 50 meters

 Mini to Toslink (or Toslink to Mini): Sys Concept Inc. Fiber Optic Products Attenuators, Patch cords, Laser Diodes, Connectors, MP3, Toslink, Hybrid Adapter and more: MiniPlug to Toslink Premium Optical Cable 0.05 to 50 meters

 Adapter:

 Toslink to Mini Adapter: Sys Concept Inc. Fiber Optic Products Attenuators, Patch cords, Laser Diodes, Connectors, MP3, Toslink, Hybrid Adapter and more: Adapter - Toslink to MiniPlug

 You mentioned Toslink to Mini adapter...make sure that's what you need as there is also a Mini to Toslink variant as well. It really comes down to which cable you have and what configuration you want. If you are going to use the stock D10 optical cable with an H1xx, the one I linked is the one you'll need. If you wish to make the connection more "portable", then a different combination of parts may apply._

 

s/pdif is built into the standard 1/8" headphone jack of my laptop, which is all i'll be using the d10 for. does the adapter you linked fit my criteria? i'd also like to get one at an angle since my jack is at the front of my laptop.


----------



## nyjets28

thanks for the suggestion bakhtiar


----------



## superpiper

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Remind people that the cable is not actually a "u" shape. It comes as a short straight cable, and you gently bend it into the U shape to plug into the amp and iRiver. When not plugged in it remains straight._

 


 erm.

 mine stays bent.......

 (ptfe lined solid silver x3 approx 4" long)


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *superpiper* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_erm.

 mine stays bent.......

 (ptfe lined solid silver x3 approx 4" long)_

 

The ones from Sys Concept Inc. don't


----------



## wolfen68

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *n0ah* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_s/pdif is built into the standard 1/8" headphone jack of my laptop, which is all i'll be using the d10 for. does the adapter you linked fit my criteria? i'd also like to get one at an angle since my jack is at the front of my laptop._

 


 It looks like this one would be it:

Sys Concept Inc. Fiber Optic Products Attenuators, Patch cords, Laser Diodes, Connectors, MP3, Toslink, Hybrid Adapter and more: Adapter - Toslink to MiniPlug Angled 90deg.

 This would work with the first linked toslink to toslink cable I provided earlier to get the signal into the D10.


----------



## n0ah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *wolfen68* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It looks like this one would be it:

Sys Concept Inc. Fiber Optic Products Attenuators, Patch cords, Laser Diodes, Connectors, MP3, Toslink, Hybrid Adapter and more: Adapter - Toslink to MiniPlug Angled 90deg.

 This would work with the first linked toslink to toslink cable I provided earlier to get the signal into the D10._

 

if the adapter is a toslink to mini and there's already a toslink to mini cord, couldn't i just get that and forget the adapter? under what circumstances would you need that adapter if this is the case?


----------



## wolfen68

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *n0ah* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_if the adapter is a toslink to mini and there's already a toslink to mini cord, couldn't i just get that and forget the adapter? under what circumstances would you need that adapter if this is the case?_

 

You said you wanted a right angle plug. That is the only way to do that.


----------



## n0ah

so if i sacrifice the right angle idea, just a regular toslink to mini cord will work for my laptop setup with no problems? and if so, i believe headphoneaddict did say the d10 already came with one. is it of the same quality or would i be better off buying one from sys concept anyway?


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

I thought I said it comes with a toslink-toslink cable, not a toslink-mini. I bought a short toslink-mini from sysconcept.ca and I can use that to connect my H140 or Macbook to my D10. I also have a small 90 degree toslink-to-mini adapter from them, to use a standard toslink-toslink cable with my Macbook or iRiver. It really is not that hard to buy one.


----------



## n0ah

it isn't a big deal i just wanted clarification that i wasn't gonna blow 20 bucks on something ibasso already packs in the box. i realize these questions are becoming outright redundant but we have time right

 so you mentioning you have both a toslink->mini and a right angle adapter for your toslink->toslink, any particular reason for both other than the option of right angle? absolutely the same soundwise?


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

I just like a lot of options, so I blew $20 on both.


----------



## PatLogan

Dear Larry,

 I envisage to buy a TViX HD M6500 with an optical output to store flac files.

 I'd like to improve the DAC feature.

 In output, I'd have either my naim nait5i amplifier + PEL Quattro (sorry, french stuff, didn't find anything in english about it...) or
 a corda XXS + earsonics SM2.

 I wonder if the iBasso D10 would be a good choice as I would also be able to use it with my computer as a portable solution.

 BUT, my preference is to get the best desktop solution with optical input.
 I hesitate between several solutions (keces, cambridge dac magic) for about 400$ (I saw you prefer the apogee, but it's a bit to expensive for me).

 I'm interested in finding very neutral and transparent sound but dynamic (I saw you founded the cambridge not dynamic enough...).

 Maybe that if a DAC has very few features, then, for the same price, the sound should be better (like for keces)....

 Well, if you had any idea to help, I would appreciate a lot !

 Thx++

 Pat


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PatLogan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Dear Larry,

 I envisage to buy a TViX HD M6500 with an optical output to store flac files.

 I'd like to improve the DAC feature.

 In output, I'd have either my naim nait5i amplifier + PEL Quattro (sorry, french stuff, didn't find anything in english about it...) or
 a corda XXS + earsonics SM2.

 I wonder if the iBasso D10 would be a good choice as I would also be able to use it with my computer as a portable solution.

 BUT, my preference is to get the best desktop solution with optical input.
 I hesitate between several solutions (keces, cambridge dac magic) for about 400$ (I saw you prefer the apogee, but it's a bit to expensive for me).

 I'm interested in finding very neutral and transparent sound but dynamic (I saw you founded the cambridge not dynamic enough...).

 Maybe that if a DAC has very few features, then, for the same price, the sound should be better (like for keces)....

 Well, if you had any idea to help, I would appreciate a lot !

 Thx++

 Pat_

 

In your budget the D10 should do the job well for you as a nice sounding optical DAC or amp for portable, computer or music server. If you don't need portable the ones you mentioned should be fine within your budget, and the DAC Magic did improve with burn-in and is not bad. The AMB Gamma 1 is also a very nice and small but not expensive DAC with optical, coax and USB; that can still be used off the grid with a laptop and powered by USB port, or with a USB power wallwart if not used with computer (just no internal battery). The $399 Headroom Micro DAC sounds good as well, but they no longer have internal battery either (the 2006 version does).


----------



## thechungster

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If you read the review you'd see the tonality is good at medium volumes with 300 ohm Sennheiser, but power with them is lacking. The Pico, V1, or D3 would be better suited for HD600/650._

 

Just referring to this quote, have you heard the HD650's (Not sure) that you can truly say that they'll have a similar synergy?


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *thechungster* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just referring to this quote, have you heard the HD650's (Not sure) that you can truly say that they'll have a similar synergy?_

 

I have owned HD650 on two occasions (black silk and silver silk version), and each time I sold the HD650 and kept the HD600. And I have owned both versions of the HD600 as well, but I only have the silver silk version right now. My main beef with the HD650 was them not sounding as sparkly and transparent as the the HD600, but I could live with the HD650 more easily than the K701/702 if the HD650 are balanced. 

 I find that the amps that do best with the HD600 also seem to do better with the HD650. If I have to use a portable DAC amp with the HD650 I preferred the slightly brighter presentation of the Vivid V1, combined with an APS V3 cable. The last time I tried this was Feb 2009 when I borrowed a pair for 2 weeks.


----------



## thechungster

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have owned HD650 on two occasions (black silk and silver silk version), and each time I sold the HD650 and kept the HD600. And I have owned both versions of the HD600 as well, but I only have the silver silk version right now. My main beef with the HD650 was them not sounding as sparkly and transparent as the the HD600, but I could live with the HD650 more easily than the K701/702 if the HD650 are balanced. 

 I find that the amps that do best with the HD600 also seem to do better with the HD650. If I have to use a portable DAC amp with the HD650 I preferred the slightly brighter presentation of the Vivid V1, combined with an APS V3 cable. The last time I tried this was Feb 2009 when I borrowed a pair for 2 weeks._

 

Thanks for the info.


----------



## PatLogan

It would be interesting to compare the D10 iBasso DAC to the iMod DAC as they have (if I remember well) the same Wolfson converter. Anyone has an opinion on that matter ?

 Otherwise, today I had the chance to listen 3 Grados (325, RS-1, GS-1000) with a Talisman T-3H and a good source with good cables.
 I founded the GS-1000 absolutely awesome.
 But with the Grado amp, it was just good.
 How do you think it would perform with a D10 or (I have an opportunity for 300 €) with a Headroom maxed out ?

 Cheers


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

The iMod with portable vcap dock, or iMod into ALO Amphora sounds very similar to the D10 DAC. There are small differences that I can't enumerate, and certainly the iMod with a normal blackgate LOD is not quite as good. You really need the vcaps with the iMod to get the most out of it.


----------



## myk7000

I'm curious, do the D10, pico, predator do well with the HD800? I'm not sure if you've listened to them together or not but just wondering.

 Also, I know you do most of your listening through more expensive amps such as the Woo6. Do these portable dac/amps hold their own against the expensive amps? I'm curious because I do most of my listening through a computer and though I don't need anything to be portable, I do want to spend no more than 500 dollars for a dac and amp together.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *myk7000* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm curious, do the D10, pico, predator do well with the HD800? I'm not sure if you've listened to them together or not but just wondering.

 Also, I know you do most of your listening through more expensive amps such as the Woo6. Do these portable dac/amps hold their own against the expensive amps? I'm curious because I do most of my listening through a computer and though I don't need anything to be portable, I do want to spend no more than 500 dollars for a dac and amp together._

 

I have not tried the HD800 with ANY portable amps yet. I haven't even upacked them from CanJam yet. While I burn-in my HD800 I have only tried them with the following desktop amps - Woo WA6, Single Power Square Wave XL, ALO Amphora, Grahm Slee Solo SRG, and HiFiMan EF2 (head-direct brand). That order listed is from best to last in synergy with HD800. 

 I could enjoy the HD800 on any of them, although the EF2 desktop DAC/amp is a notch below the others and has better synergy with HD600 than HD800 (it's a little bright with HD800, but amp and phones have only 100 hours so far with 200 more to go). The EF2 desktop DAC/amp is closer to the portable DAC/amps than the other desktop amps, but it is still a very decent performer and a steal for the $200 or so bucks it will sell for (review to come later). The EF2 sound quality with anything other than HD800 has been on par with a $399 EF1, which is as more powerful and costly desktop amp that doesn't have a DAC. So, I wouldn't write that off yet.

 Some of the portables in my "top tier" typically can come close to desktop sound quality but typically not in power or authority (anything above the D3 in my review could suffice in lieu of a desktop amp for a while). In terms of power the 3MOVE and Amphora (no DAC) are at the top of the battery operated amps, but lately I have been preferring the ones with the best DAC's instead of power (or using the Pico DAC-only with Amphora). For the best DAC sound quality, the D10 and Pico can match the highly regarded Apogee Duet DAC fairly well. These three have the best DACs out the DAC/amps I have reviewed. So, if you got one of those 3 DAC/amps and it doesn't drive a headphone well enough, then they do make a great DAC to feed an upgraded desktop amp later.

 I also need to try my Nuforce Icon Desktop DAC/amp with the HD800 as well, which would be the closest desktop DAC/amp competitor to the EF2. Then there is the Audio-gd desktop DAC/amp that I have not heard yet, which may be in your price range, but I'm not the one to advise on that. 

 Regardless, I expect to be trying out the portable DAC/amps from this review with HD800 before I go on a week vacation with my family at the end of next week.


----------



## myk7000

Thanks hpa for the reply.

 I've been looking to try the RS1 and D2000 with a new dac/amp once i get a new computer in a couple months (my computer right now can't work with dacs for some reason or another). 
 It really came down to the Pico and D10 but yeah definitely this EF2 sounds really interesting as its only $200 and possibly better than the aforementioned dac/amps? (Where do I find links for the ef2?)

 Have you heard any other dac/amps that perform that well at a nearby price point?


----------



## thechungster

HPA
 Getting the HF2? Since if you do get it, I would like to see some opinions on which amps suit it.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *thechungster* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_HPA
 Getting the HF2? Since if you do get it, I would like to see some opinions on which amps suit it._

 

I will try the HF-2 with my portables after the burn-in is done. I am close to being done at 150 hours, but I try to do a minimum of 200 with anything.


----------



## PatLogan

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *thechungster* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_HPA
 Getting the HF2? Since if you do get it, I would like to see some opinions on which amps suit it._

 

+1


----------



## DoYouRight

Yes am I curious as well for the HF-2 and either D10 or Pico? I have HF-1, HF-2 (on the way), ESW10jpn, and Sennheiser HD595, soon either Ultrasone Pro900 or Denon Dxxx. 

 I seem to see that some prefer the pico ALOT. I want to have a great laptop setup. Its just hard to get enough GOOD reviews. 

 Larry please buy an Audio-GD Compass? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Id like your review of it. Not just some random newb who has only had 1 or no other amp/dacs to compare.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DoYouRight* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes am I curious as well for the HF-2 and either D10 or Pico? I have HF-1, HF-2 (on the way), ESW10jpn, and Sennheiser HD595, soon either Ultrasone Pro900 or Denon Dxxx. 

 I seem to see that some prefer the pico ALOT. I want to have a great laptop setup. Its just hard to get enough GOOD reviews. 

 Larry please buy an Audio-GD Compass? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Id like your review of it. Not just some random newb who has only had 1 or no other amp/dacs to compare._

 

I am burning in my HF-2 and have not tried them for any appreciable amount of time on many my portable amps yet. Basically my comments on the RS-1 with these amps in the review would apply to the HF-2 as well.

 You can NOT believe everything you read - here or elsewhere. There are preferences that people have which go beyond just the sound, and more into personal feelings, and I don't pay attention to that.

 I am going to be reviewing the HiFiMan EF2 (head-direct) desktop USB DAC/amp and so far I am really enjoying it with my full size cans and IEMs. I don't have plans for the Audio-GD compass right now, but might at a later date.


----------



## DoYouRight

Thanks Larry sorry bout the mentioning of another evil group P Jude ty for being nice) but I heard about you saying EF2 but can't find informatin anywhere? 

 Does the EF2 have usb? What kind of DAC? Ty

 I want the best sound from my laptop that I can put on a cart or something and move from my desk to my lounge chair Compass is HEAVY so that's why Im worried. But I don't want to sacrifice BASS or SQ for size too much. As well as keep my purchase sub $500. Thanks Larry your the man!

 I wish companies would send you every gear to review since you put the most time into reviews


----------



## DoYouRight

I am trying to decide if the D10 is good for my ESW10jpns if I take my laptop and FLAC Seagate Drive with me places. I would need a good bag 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 and bigger battery. Just curious if the Pico is better since people use it to feed their STAX rigs it has to be amazing right?

 Thats the reason for not necessarily biting on the D10 though I almost did, is why do I keep seeing Picos running Stax amps from laptops and never D10s or something?


----------



## LevA

Hi DoYuoRight,

 I don't have any experience with Pico but I do have the D10 and with ESW10jpns the sound is indeed very nice from the computer. especially if you have digital out from your laptop. 

 good luck deciding as they seem to both get good reviews. At least you know that whichever you get you will be satisfied.

 btw, how's the esw10's with the compass??? 


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DoYouRight* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am trying to decide if the D10 is good for my ESW10jpns if I take my laptop and FLAC Seagate Drive with me places. I would need a good bag 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 and bigger battery. Just curious if the Pico is better since people use it to feed their STAX rigs it has to be amazing right?

 Thats the reason for not necessarily biting on the D10 though I almost did, is why do I keep seeing Picos running Stax amps from laptops and never D10s or something?_


----------



## DoYouRight

Compass + Esw10jpn is great. They dont scale as much as other phones though. Just adds refinement and control. I can't tell alot of difference. But my compass is still burning in on softmode.

 To be perfectly honest. I don't think the ESW10jpn are all that special. Compared to my HD595 or HF-1 they just sound a little more deep because of the wood cups. I dont find the bass or mids to be that much different from my HF-1. Maybe my unit is defective or the sound sig wasnt very diff so unless I downgrade it will be more obvious. I do have a hard time using the HF-1 now but maybe that is more to do with the cord issue? I wish the ESW10jpn would fit over my whole ear though as when I push it against my ear the bass and detail is way better.


----------



## LevA

Thanks for that info. 
 I actually was undecided which to get, the d10 or the compass. I eventually decided that for the esw10jpn the compass might be like an overkill as I suspected it wouldn't scale as much as others like you said. 
 so if you get the D10 you can actually tell us how much difference there is with esw10's 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'm sure compass still is better but like i said the d10 with esw10jpn is very nice...the DAC makes a big difference in clarity. and I like the option of taking it with my computer outside to listen with esw10's. and since ESW10's aren't the most compact portables, you will be carrying a bag either way so the d10 doesnt make it cumbersome as much as say iems+ipod.

 btw, if you have the HPP5 case for the esw10's, the D10 will fit in there niceley. or you can get a small separate camera bag to fit your portable set up. here's a link with photo
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f105/d...5/#post5755042

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DoYouRight* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Compass + Esw10jpn is great. They dont scale as much as other phones though. Just adds refinement and control. I can't tell alot of difference. But my compass is still burning in on softmode_


----------



## DoYouRight

thanks! The guy who sold me mine didn't offer the case at the time and now does for like $20, I just didnt think $75 shipped was ok for a softcase?


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

DoYouRight - The EF2 is a new tube hybrid using a pair of 6J1 tubes, and has analog input and USB DAC input using the same type of DAC as the 3MOVE and XM5 - the Burr Brown Japan PCM2702 which is a pretty decent DAC, with just slightly less micro-detail or space than the D10 and Pico or Headroom or Duet DAC sections.

 It will be $189 and sounds very good after 225 hours of burn-in here. For the high impedance phones like HD600/HD800 there is plenty of power and I would pick it over most or all of the portable DAC/amps here, while with Grados and Denon and other low impedance phones the portable have a chance to keep up or surpass it a little. The EF2 also has enough low volume knob control to not have channel imbalance problems with IEM, nor does it hiss with my custom IEMs. I have not directly compared it with any other amps yet except for the EF1 - but I think it sounds very much like my $399 EF1 with a little less power and maybe slightly less warm sounding with my HD800 (likely the cheap chinese tubes). How they added a nice USB DAC for half the cost of the EF1 I don't know. The amp does not scale up significantly with a better source than the internal DAC, but it can improve some with the Pico DAC-only and should get even better with some nice NOS tubes. The stock tubes may be limiting how well it scales with better sources, so we'll see. I plan to look for some 6J1 at a local tube place soon. I can't start a review until after the 17th when I get back in town, and I'll want to put 50-100 hours on the new tubes too.


----------



## LevA

well my esw10's and the grado SR-60 are my only experience with good headphones...I live on a tropical island and can't get anything decent here to even test out..too bad coz just until last year i was in japan for 6 years where i could have tested them all out...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 oh well, at least I got nice beach to go for a swim everyday and enjoy scuba diving on weekends
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 As to the sound, maybe I'm lucky as i have a quite small mug and ears so it almost covers it and the sound I get is really good.

 I might be heading over to japan for a week or so in October and will check out all these headphones people are talking about...
 btw I think I got my case for ~14 dollars sent from japan (family). If I do go in october If you want I may be able to grab one. I don't think mailing would cost that much..

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DoYouRight* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Compass + Esw10jpn is great. They dont scale as much as other phones though. Just adds refinement and control. I can't tell alot of difference. But my compass is still burning in on softmode.

 To be perfectly honest. I don't think the ESW10jpn are all that special. Compared to my HD595 or HF-1 they just sound a little more deep because of the wood cups. I dont find the bass or mids to be that much different from my HF-1. Maybe my unit is defective or the sound sig wasnt very diff so unless I downgrade it will be more obvious. I do have a hard time using the HF-1 now but maybe that is more to do with the cord issue? I wish the ESW10jpn would fit over my whole ear though as when I push it against my ear the bass and detail is way better._


----------



## DoYouRight

Thanks LevA for the offer, might take you up on it.

 Larry, so does the EF2 have a tube sticking out of the top of the AMP/DAC?


----------



## V-DiV

Quote:
 Originally Posted by HeadphoneAddict 

 For instance, I think the D10 driving headphones and IEM is very close to the $500 Apogee Duet that I am borrowing - with some phones one is better, and with other the other one is better (with Head-direct RE2 that I am burning in, the Duet sounds better with them, but with Westone ES3X or Westone 3 the D10 is everybit as good or slightly better). I haven't reviewed the Apogee as I consider it a desktop DAC/amp that wont run under it's own battery power like the others, but I put it among the top DAC/amps around. 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *elbuzzard* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i was wondering how the duet stacked up against these others._

 


 Me too. For someone who will be carrying portable headphones and DAC/amp to and from work to use where power is not a problem, does the Apogee Duet stand above the Pico and D10 or are they more-or-less peers?


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *V-DiV* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Quote:
 Originally Posted by HeadphoneAddict 

 For instance, I think the D10 driving headphones and IEM is very close to the $500 Apogee Duet that I am borrowing - with some phones one is better, and with other the other one is better (with Head-direct RE2 that I am burning in, the Duet sounds better with them, but with Westone ES3X or Westone 3 the D10 is everybit as good or slightly better). I haven't reviewed the Apogee as I consider it a desktop DAC/amp that wont run under it's own battery power like the others, but I put it among the top DAC/amps around. 




 Me too. For someone who will be carrying portable headphones and DAC/amp to and from work to use where power is not a problem, *does the Apogee Duet stand above the Pico and D10 or are they more-or-less peers?*_

 

Those three are more or less peers among each other, in terms of DAC quality, and headphone out is good with all three but a little different sonic signature. The D10 stock is similar to the Predator with a Pico DAC inside, the Duet is like a mix of the Predator's extra warmth and the spaciousness of the Pico so not quite as forward as the Predator. The Duet has good power and can Drive HD600 loudly, but sounds optimal with Grados. The Pico power level falls between the Duet and Predator, and seems to be similar to the P-51 power. The P-51 may sound closer to the Duet as well, when used with a good DAC.

 To the other guy, the 6J1 tubes do stick up partially out of the clear top of the EF2.


----------



## Skylab

Larry do you have some nice NOS 6AK5's to use in p0lace of the 6J1's?


----------



## V-DiV

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Those three are more or less peers_

 

Thanks very much for sharing all the work you've done on this. I'm on the verge of buying either the Pico, Duet, D10, or Predator to pair with my ATH-ESW10JPN. I'd prefer to buy American so I think that means Pico, Predator, or Duet (is Duet made in the U.S. or overseas?). From what you said in your descriptions the Pico sounds like a better match than the Predator for the ESW10s - more spacious, more extended highs.


----------



## DoYouRight

Larry will you do a thread for Desktop Amp/Dacs? Since the trend especially with the EF2 you like and the Compass is people moving that direction to get even more power to their cans.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Larry do you have some nice NOS 6AK5's to use in place of the 6J1's?_

 

I haven't had time to look for nicer tubes yet - and I don't have any 6AK5 or 6J1 tubes. If you have some to sell please drop me a PM soon.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *V-DiV* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks very much for sharing all the work you've done on this. I'm on the verge of buying either the Pico, Duet, D10, or Predator to pair with my ATH-ESW10JPN. I'd prefer to buy American so I think that means Pico, Predator, or Duet (is Duet made in the U.S. or overseas?). From what you said in your descriptions the Pico sounds like a better match than the Predator for the ESW10s - more spacious, more extended highs._

 

The ESW10JPN are not as picky about what amp I use them with, like the Grados or HD600 for instance. So they tend to sound nice with most amps. Since I got the P-51 and D10 and Pico DAC-only, I only tend to listen to my Amphora, D10 or P-51 with my laptop, using either the D10 DAC or the Pico DAC. For me to properly answer that question I'd like to revisit the ESW10 with those amps again before I answer that fully. 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DoYouRight* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Larry will you do a thread for Desktop Amp/Dacs? Since the trend especially with the EF2 you like and the Compass is people moving that direction to get even more power to their cans._

 

I planned to put the EF2 in it's own thread, and link to it from here. My first and second post in this thread are full, and I don't want to add the full reviews here since I have a few desktop DAC/amp reviews already posted elsewhere. 

 That would include the StyleAudio CARAT-TOPAZ (I should have a link to it in my public profile "about me"). I also have a review on the Travagans Greem desktop DAC/amp in another thread, with a link to it posted in my public profile. I could also dig up my impressions of the Nuforce desktop DAC/amp and put the links here - on the Nuforce I have several posts in someone else's Nuforce thread. I'm not sure if I also have a link already in my public profile "about me" for the Nuforce. I only had the Apogee Duet at my home for 2-3 weeks in February, while I was doing my D10 review, but I don't think I took good enough notes to do a full review. I mainly just confirmed my impressions of it from previous times that I played with it at Blutarsky's house. I did post a Duet vs Mini-DAC impressions in a mini-meet summer 2008 thread, so I could dig up that link and pretend it's a Duet review. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I am not collecting desktop DAC amps, so I don't have a lot to compare to each other. All I have on hand right now is the Nuforce and the EF2, and Blutarsky has the Travagans Green right now to drive his Stax Lambdas via the speaker out. He sold the Duet when I decided it was too similar to what I already have and declined to buy it. The CARAT-TOPAZ was a loaner to review, and I shipped it to the next reviewer. The EF2 is mine as I traded a more expensive EF1 for it, to be the first to review it.

 So, maybe I could start a new thread for the EF2 review, and put copies of my Nuforce, Travagans, TOPAZ and Duet reviews in there to consolidate the 5 amps?


----------



## V-DiV

I ordered a Pico DAC/amp yesterday. Can't wait to take it "on the road" with my ESW10JPNs to get back the sound that I am missing playing music straight out of my MacBook Pro. Thanks again for all of the reviews and advice.


----------



## DoYouRight

That would be sweet 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Can't wait for the EF2 review.


----------



## Mr C

I'm quite amazed that you find the nuforce better than the Ibasso d2.
 Has anyone tried the HD25 70 ohm version on both of these?
 I'd like to know if the nuforce delivers enough bass combined with the hd25. I tried a brand new icon right when they came out and it was lacking bass so badly that I couldnt consider buying one (I listen to hip hop beats and "dark" electro mostly), but since this thread says that it benefits a lot from extensive burn in I'm considering buying one.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Mr C* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm quite amazed that you find the nuforce better than the Ibasso d2.
 Has anyone tried the HD25 70 ohm version on both of these?
 I'd like to know if the nuforce delivers enough bass combined with the hd25. I tried a brand new icon right when they came out and it was lacking bass so badly that I couldnt consider buying one (I listen to hip hop beats and "dark" electro mostly), but since this thread says that it benefits a lot from extensive burn in I'm considering buying one._

 

The Nuforce *definitely needs burn-in* for a good bit of time, and it changes more with burn-in than any other amp except for the Predator. And I said the Nuforce was better in many areas but not all, and I detailed when and why it was or was not better. 

 I do get enough bass with my ESW10JPN which are similar in sound from what I recall (sold my HD25-1 over a year ago). I can hear 16Hz-16KHz and with the Nuforce and the NE-7M I could hear the 16Hz tones. The bass is not boosted but it is not lacking either. I will more often reach for the Nuforce before I reach for the D2 Boa. 

 The main disadvantage of the Nuforce is that the sound is brighter and more forward when used with an iPod instead of with the internal DAC, so I really prefer to use it with a computer more. The second disadvantage is the battery life is a bit less, and the battery drains when it is stored and not being used. The main disadvantage of the D2 Boa is the mids are not as detailed, and the bass is not as controlled.

 I am willing to bet the D2 Boa will work well with the somewhat forward sound of the HD25. And the D2 will sound better out of the box than the Nuforce, just like the D3 Python sounds better out of the box than the D2 Boa. But I still needed at least 200-300 hours of burn-in with the D2 Boa, and the soundstage didn't fully open up until 600 hours.


----------



## R3SET

Just received the Vivid Technologies V1. Despite of it's size, it pumps out great volume. Halfway would be deafening with my HD600, didn't expect that at all. Great SQ improvement for less than €80 (even without burn-in). 
 As far as first impressions go, it does good things for the HD600, and great things for the IE8.

 Thanks a lot for your great advice HeadphoneAddict!


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *R3SET* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just received the Vivid Technologies V1. Despite of it's size, it pumps out great volume. Halfway would be deafening with my HD600, didn't expect that at all. Great SQ improvement for less than €80 (even without burn-in). 
 As far as first impressions go, it does good things for the HD600, and great things for the IE8.

 Thanks a lot for your great advice HeadphoneAddict!_

 

Glad I could help. The 3MOVE is another portable with great power for the HD600, but it is too bass heavy for the IE8. The V1 seems to work better when using both of those phones, as far as synergy and power goes.


----------



## Rainbow Randy

Hello. I ordered the Headroom Micro Amp recently (strictly desktop--no battery option) and should get it in a few days. This will be my first serious amp, and looking at the review and rankings, I'm starting to wonder if I should send it back without opening. Should the desktop-only Micro Amp be significantly better than the portable Micro you reviewed, HPAddict?

 I'll be listening to a HD600 and possibly a HF-2 later. If I ditched the Micro, I'd use an integrated stereo amplifier at home and use a D10 as a transportable rig. Any thoughts? (I see the D10 is not HD600 ideal, but to my ignorant ears it sounds rather good coming out of Cmoy).

 Thanks, HPAddict, your review is very helpful!


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ChiComm4* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hello. I ordered the Headroom Micro Amp recently (strictly desktop--no battery option) and should get it in a few days. This will be my first serious amp, and looking at the review and rankings, I'm starting to wonder if I should send it back without opening. Should the desktop-only Micro Amp be significantly better than the portable Micro you reviewed, HPAddict?

 I'll be listening to a HD600 and possibly a HF-2 later. If I ditched the Micro, I'd use an integrated stereo amplifier at home and use a D10 as a transportable rig. Any thoughts? (I see the D10 is not HD600 ideal, but to my ignorant ears it sounds rather good coming out of Cmoy).

 Thanks, HPAddict, your review is very helpful!_

 

All the amps above the D3 come highly recommended and sound very good, including the Micro Amp. I am STILL using the Micro Amp and DAC in my bedside rig over 15 months after I bought it (while the Meier Headfive that it sits on is not even connected). When I am in bed I typically use it with my IEM and ESW10, but I could use it with any of my phones.

 The Micro Amp has almost 2x the voltage swing for high impedance headphones when it is plugged into the wall, and it does better with HD600 than the modded D10. I did my review on battery power, not plugged in with the 15v power brick. So, for the headphones that you have I would keep the Micro Amp and try it during the 30 day money back guarantee time-period. Burn-it in for a couple hundred hours over the first 2 weeks, but it will already sound good right out of the box by the end of the first hour. 

 You can always add a $99 Vivid V1 for transportable DAC/amp (very nice with HD600), or even a cheaper hotaudio USB DAC later (which some day I do plan to review as well). For home a Super Pro DAC707 has a similar circuit to the Micro DAC but with LT1364 opamps in the output stage, and it would pair well with the Micro Amp for 1/3 the cost of the Micro DAC.


----------



## alfskan

But I have a question.

 I think you use the P-51 Mustang recently. right?

 I can`t decide for longtime between predator and P-51.

 can you compare these? please~

 I don`t have enough money for both. lol


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *alfskan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_But I have a question.

 I think you use the P-51 Mustang recently. right?

 I can`t decide for longtime between predator and P-51.

 can you compare these? please~

 I don`t have enough money for both. lol_

 

The P-51 is a little richer and more vibrant in the mids, but also a little spacious at the same too. It also seems a little more extended in the highs. When I don't need the DAC I grab the P-51, like with my iMod.


----------



## alfskan

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The P-51 is a little richer and more vibrant in the mids, but also a little spacious at the same too. It also seems a little more extended in the highs. When I don't need the DAC I grab the P-51, like with my iMod._

 


 Finally I decided order p-51 !

 thanks for solve my problem haha~


----------



## myk7000

i cant believe how many times i keep coming back to this thread, it's quite amazing. Thanks for all your help Larry. 

 Your advice helped me finally end up with a ibasso d10 which sounds great. Actually though, I might actually sell it eventually to get an ef2 if it indeed sounds as good as the ef1. I'll wait for your review on that 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 By the way have you ever listened to a Gilmore Lite by chance? Do you know how it compares to the ef1?

 Btw everyone, the EF2 is out! Head-Direct.com | YUIN


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *myk7000* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i cant believe how many times i keep coming back to this thread, it's quite amazing. Thanks for all your help Larry. 

 Your advice helped me finally end up with a ibasso d10 which sounds great. Actually though, I might actually sell it eventually to get an ef2 if it indeed sounds as good as the ef1. I'll wait for your review on that 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 By the way have you ever listened to a Gilmore Lite by chance? Do you know how it compares to the ef1?

 Btw everyone, the EF2 is out! Head-Direct.com | YUIN_

 

Glad I could help. More tidbits from my upcoming EF2 review.

 I am burning in some NOS Raytheon 6AK5 tubes in the EF2 (equivalent to the 6J1) and they sound a little better, but I was surprised at how the stock tubes don't suck at all. The EF2 DAC is on par with the 3MOVE DAC, and is also a PCM2702E Japan, but the amp section is a little better than the D10 and closer to the EF1 amp (or Cavalli CTH, or Millett SSH). The only difference I found between the EF1 and EF2 (at CanJam) is that the EF2 couldn't adequately drive an 8 ohm orthodynamic headphone, with it running out of current before the EF1 did. The EF2 sounded so good that I swapped my $399 EF1 for a new EF2 to review.

 I have typically been using the EF2 with either the D10 DAC or Pico DAC-only as the source, for maximum detail and space, but I enjoy the EF2 just as much with the built-in DAC. I am just not sure I would give up and sell my better DACs for using only the built-in DAC.

 I have not heard the Gilmore Lite, but I have heard other similar SS discrete amps like Grahm Slee NOVO and Solo SRG. I would take the EF2 over the $350 NOVO with any headphone (similar to my EF1 findings), but I am not sure about the SRG - but then the SRG is also $700 vs $189. Most of my burn-in of the EF2 has been with my HD800, and the EF2 started out a little bright with HD800 but mellowed out over time, while the SRG had hundreds of hours on it and still sounded bright with the HD800.

 So, that's all for now.


----------



## DoYouRight

Wow and it is only $189! Maybe this will be my test into tubes before going all out! Sweetstuff!


----------



## hesselh

Hi, i am struggling what dac/amp combi to buy for my AKG k271 Mkii. The akg is somewhat "lean" in the bass department. If i look at size i like the nuforce icon mobile, but will it work with my AKG?
 The ibasso looks like the winner, and probably also sounds as one, but my wife will kill me if i spend 275 again on a "gadget" 
 Oh one more thing, i will hook it up to macbook pro and ipod 5.5g (thats why i think i need the dac)

 Please advise,

 Hessel


----------



## manuel74

Hi HeadphoneAddict,
 so have you tried the D10 with HD800 ? 
 Do you find it good ?

 bye
 Manuel


----------



## DoYouRight

those phones are notorious for lean bass, so are all AKG's. There is no REAL way to change that, some very expensive amps can try. But you might want to try a pair of beyer DT880s


----------



## aamefford

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *V-DiV* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I ordered a Pico DAC/amp yesterday. Can't wait to take it "on the road" with my ESW10JPNs to get back the sound that I am missing playing music straight out of my MacBook Pro. Thanks again for all of the reviews and advice._

 

A fine, fine choice! That is my preferred set up as well.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *hesselh* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi, i am struggling what dac/amp combi to buy for my AKG k271 Mkii. The akg is somewhat "lean" in the bass department. If i look at size i like the nuforce icon mobile, but will it work with my AKG?
 The ibasso looks like the winner, and probably also sounds as one, but my wife will kill me if i spend 275 again on a "gadget" 
 Oh one more thing, i will hook it up to macbook pro and ipod 5.5g (thats why i think i need the dac)

 Please advise,

 Hessel_

 

I do NOT think the Nuforce would be the best match for those. The D2 Boa is more likely the better choice for it's warmer sound signature and bass, and wont cost as much as the D10. The iBasso T4 would probably also sound good with the AKG, is smaller and flatter like the Nuforce, but it lacks a DAC. I think the D2 boa sounds a little better than the T4 anyway, but I mention it as an option - even though it is for IEM it can actually do a decent job with some full size phones (better with AKG701, RS-1 and ESW10JPN than Denon D2000 which need more current).


----------



## hesselh

Thanks for the advise, i will take a serious look at the D2 boa and have some serious thoughts about spending €100 more on the D10 otherwise it will keep resonating in my head...  
 I love this forum, and most of all comforting that i am not alone in this headphone madness.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *manuel74* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi HeadphoneAddict,
 so have you tried the D10 with HD800 ? 
 Do you find it good ?

 bye
 Manuel_

 

I find the D10 with AD744 output-bypassed class-A biased opamps and EL8201 buffers to sound fantastic with my HD800. The opamps cost about $65 from Hiflight if you PM him. The sense of space and depth and detail is great, and it sounds very transparent yet musical, even with USB instead of optical. 

 The only issue is volume levels. It will not play nearly as loud as the Amphora, 3MOVE or Vivid V1, which means some people wont be happy. At normal listening levels between medium and loud volumes, the volume knob is at 2:30 to 3:00 o'clock in high gain, with some slight soft clipping starting after that depending on the recording (could be clipping at 4 o'clock, or clean all the way to 5 o'clock). So, how loud it goes definitely depends on the recording. With infected mushroom "Dancing with the Kadafi" it clips after 3 o'clock and is not loud enough to jam to, but with Batman Begins soundtrack 3 o'clock is fairly loud and clean. I can also get it to play more than loud enough with most of my Jazz recordings (Tord Gustavson Trio or Eva Cassidy "Live at Blues Alley" for example).


----------



## LevA

Hi HeadphoneAddict,

 I'm about to order topkit from hi-flight but want to get your idea. which would be a better option for esw10's? original topkit (743/8616) or Class A 743/8616 or the AD744 OBCA with with EL8201 ??
 I mainly want it for clasical and jazz music. so looking for nice soundstage and depth - I don't like too upfront sound, I prefer some distance from the music. At the moment happy with the orginal sound signiture but anything to improve it would be nice. 

 thanks for all your help.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I find the D10 with AD744 output-bypassed class-A biased opamps and EL8201 buffers to sound fantastic with my HD800. The opamps cost about $65 from Hiflight if you PM him. The sense of space and depth and detail is great, and it sounds very transparent yet musical, even with USB instead of optical. 

 The only issue is volume levels. It will not play nearly as loud as the Amphora, 3MOVE or Vivid V1, which means some people wont be happy. At normal listening levels between medium and loud volumes, the volume knob is at 2:30 to 3:00 o'clock in high gain, with some slight soft clipping starting after that depending on the recording (could be clipping at 4 o'clock, or clean all the way to 5 o'clock). So, how loud it goes definitely depends on the recording. With infected mushroom "Dancing with the Kadafi" it clips after 3 o'clock and is not loud enough to jam to, but with Batman Begins soundtrack 3 o'clock is fairly loud and clean. I can also get it to play more than loud enough with most of my Jazz recordings (Tord Gustavson Trio or Eva Cassidy "Live at Blues Alley" for example)._


----------



## manuel74

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The only issue is volume levels. It will not play nearly as loud as the Amphora, 3MOVE or Vivid V1, which means some people wont be happy. At normal listening levels between medium and loud volumes, the volume knob is at 2:30 to 3:00 o'clock in high gain, with some slight soft clipping starting after that depending on the recording (could be clipping at 4 o'clock, or clean all the way to 5 o'clock). So, how loud it goes definitely depends on the recording. With infected mushroom "Dancing with the Kadafi" it clips after 3 o'clock and is not loud enough to jam to, but with Batman Begins soundtrack 3 o'clock is fairly loud and clean. I can also get it to play more than loud enough with most of my Jazz recordings (Tord Gustavson Trio or Eva Cassidy "Live at Blues Alley" for example)._

 

The problem of volume levels probably is due to output power specs of only 100mw at 32 ohm (see this message), considering that HD800 is 300 ohm the output power drop in a considerable manner...
 For V1 I've seen 100 mw at 300 ohm from your review, and for Pico is 200 mw at 300 ohm (see this message).
 Do you think the situation could be better with other opamp in D10 ?

 I cannot find any data about mw output of the Predator, have you tried it with HD800 ? Do you find the volume level to be higher ?

 thanks
 Manuel


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LevA* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi HeadphoneAddict,

 I'm about to order topkit from hi-flight but want to get your idea. which would be a better option for esw10's? original topkit (743/8616) or Class A 743/8616 or the AD744 OBCA with with EL8201 ??
 I mainly want it for clasical and jazz music. so looking for nice soundstage and depth - I don't like too upfront sound, I prefer some distance from the music. At the moment happy with the orginal sound signiture but anything to improve it would be nice. 

 thanks for all your help._

 

The AD744OBCA/EL8201.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *manuel74* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The problem of volume levels probably is due to output power specs of only 100mw at 32 ohm (see this message), considering that HD800 is 300 ohm the output power drop in a considerable manner...
 For V1 I've seen 100 mw at 300 ohm from your review, and for Pico is 200 mw at 300 ohm (see this message).
 Do you think the situation could be better with other opamp in D10 ?

 I cannot find any data about mw output of the Predator, have you tried it with HD800 ? Do you find the volume level to be higher ?

 thanks
 Manuel_

 

RSA claims 250ma output with Predator, but doesn't specify the impedance. You can bump the D10 power with different buffers, but the best sounding setups don't boost the power.


----------



## LevA

HeadphoneAddict,

 thanks for your help..It shall be AD744OBCA/EL8201 then.


----------



## PatLogan

Dear Larry,
 I've just bought the D10, it's on at ist burn-in stage...
 I opened it to roll opamps and I have some questions for you:
 1. I guess we can put the opamps up-side down, can you confirm me this ?
 2. I guess the buffer is the item I encircled with a red row:




 Didn't find any topic that explains how to roll buffer and amps...
 I believe I will buy the AD744OBCA/EL8201 kit and will make some comparison with several amps, this item sounds really interesting. I'll compare it to the DacMagic too (that's for end August).
 Cheers,
 Patrice


----------



## wuwhere

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PatLogan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Dear Larry,
 I've just bought the D10, it's on at ist burn-in stage...
 I opened it to roll opamps and I have some questions for you:
 1. I guess we can put the opamps up-side down, can you confirm me this ?
 2. I guess the buffer is the item I encircled with a red row:




 Didn't find any topic that explains how to roll buffer and amps...
 I believe I will buy the AD744OBCA/EL8201 kit and will make some comparison with several amps, this item sounds really interesting. I'll compare it to the DacMagic too (that's for end August).
 Cheers,
 Patrice_

 

The one you circled in red is the opamp. The two little ICs above that are the buffers.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PatLogan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Dear Larry,
 I've just bought the D10, it's on at ist burn-in stage...
 I opened it to roll opamps and I have some questions for you:
 1. I guess we can put the opamps up-side down, can you confirm me this ?
 2. I guess the buffer is the item I encircled with a red row:




 Didn't find any topic that explains how to roll buffer and amps...
 I believe I will buy the AD744OBCA/EL8201 kit and will make some comparison with several amps, this item sounds really interesting. I'll compare it to the DacMagic too (that's for end August).
 Cheers,
 Patrice_

 

Question 2 was answered already. It uses two dual channel buffers and one dual channel opamp for the main amp. The main amp opamp can be two single channel opamps on an adapter board (like the AD744 or AD743).

 Don't know what you mean by upside down in Q#1. The opamps must be aligned in only one direction. In the photo, pin #1 of the opamp is to the left and farthest corner away from the observer's position.


----------



## PatLogan

Thank you both for your answers.

 So I assume that on the D10, the amp is made of 2 buffers and one opamp and that you can either have one dual channel OR two single channel on an adapter board on one opamp IC... (but they would look the same, for a novice like me I guess...) is there a tutorial anywhere on that matter?

 Then, they provide us with alternate buffers in the box where we have 6 items? I didn't have any doc to explain what it is and what to do with it...

 Concerning Q1, I wanted to know if I have to pay attention on the position of the IC. I mean, as they are perfectly symmetrical, we have 2 solutions to position them (180 rotation). Is there something to know about it? Is there a tutorial anywhere on how to change these items?

 Hope this is not to technical for this thread and my english is understandable...

 Cheers,

 Pat


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PatLogan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thank you both for your answers.

 So I assume that on the D10, the amp is made of 2 buffers and one opamp and that you can either have one dual channel OR two single channel on an adapter board on one opamp IC... (but they would look the same, for a novice like me I guess...) is there a tutorial anywhere on that matter?

 Then, they provide us with alternate buffers in the box where we have 6 items? I didn't have any doc to explain what it is and what to do with it...

 Concerning Q1, I wanted to know if I have to pay attention on the position of the IC. I mean, as they are perfectly symmetrical, we have 2 solutions to position them (180 rotation). Is there something to know about it? Is there a tutorial anywhere on how to change these items?

 Hope this is not to technical for this thread and my english is understandable...

 Cheers,

 Pat_

 

There is a u-shaped indentation, either physical or painted on, at the end where pin one resides. Sometimes the solder pad around where pin 1 enters the opamp board is square, instead of round like the other pins.


----------



## fuseboxx

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_D10 optical > D10 amp
 D10 USB > D10 amp
 Predator USB > Predator amp
 D10 optical line-out > Predator amp
 D10 optical headphone out > Predator amp
 D10 USB line-out > Predator amp
 D10 USB headphone out > Predator amp
 Pico USB > Pico amp
 D10 optical line-out > Pico amp
 D10 optical Headphone out > Pico amp
 D10 USB line-out > Pico amp
 D10 USB headphone out > Pico amp_

 

Just wondering why the coax was pretty much ignored in the review and comparisons


----------



## DoYouRight

maybe there is no coax on his macbook? but coax is the king as it is the best for 24/192


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fuseboxx* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just wondering why the coax was pretty much ignored in the review and comparisons 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Because I don't have a portable audio device with coax, just my Macbook and iRiver H140 and some Sony CD players. I suppose I could have used a large Marantz CD5001 with coax out (which I do use coax with my desktop rig) but that didn't seem worth the time after trying the D10 with a variety of combinations of two inputs and two outputs.

 I acquired an Akai portable DVD player with coax audio out, but (1) I have a paucity of DVD-A discs and (2) I do not have a duplicate of the music on CD to compare to, and (3) the Akai doesn't do audio CD through the coax out.

 We did try the coax hooked up to an S/PDIF distribution center with one source and 5 other DACs - but with the mishmash of digital and analog cables to connect the source to the distribution center, and the DAC's to the pre-amp, and the pre-amp to the 4 amps - the sound wasn't good and was unreliable to compare to other DACs.


----------



## fuseboxx

^ Ok, thanks for that! Just wondering though since a lot of people say Coax > Optical in general.


----------



## PatLogan

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There is a u-shaped indentation, either physical or painted on, at the end where pin one resides. Sometimes the solder pad around where pin 1 enters the opamp board is square, instead of round like the other pins._

 

Thank you Larry, I founded the U shaped mark and the square on the pin#1, you're a gem!
 So, when you receive the D10, it comes with AD711-8532A*2 buffers and a ADA4841-2YRZ opamp.
 In the opamp rolling kit, we have AD8656*2, LMH6643*2, Dummy adapter*2.
 Are these opamps or buffers ?
 What am I supposed to change to test the differences of sound ?
 Thx++
 Pat


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PatLogan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thank you Larry, I founded the U shaped mark and the square on the pin#1, you're a gem!
 So, when you receive the D10, it comes with AD711-8532A*2 buffers and a ADA4841-2YRZ opamp.
 In the opamp rolling kit, we have AD8656*2, LMH6643*2, Dummy adapter*2.
 Are these opamps or buffers ?
 What am I supposed to change to test the differences of sound ?
 Thx++
 Pat_

 

Opamps are used as buffers, and can be used in the main amp socket as well. The dummy buffers cannot. 

 Just listen, swap opamp, and listen again. Focus on particular aspects of the sound, and maybe each time you listen you can write down your thoughts about the bass, mids, treble, detail, transparency, neutrality and soundstage. Then compare notes.


----------



## PatLogan

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Opamps are used as buffers, and can be used in the main amp socket as well. The dummy buffers cannot. 

 Just listen, swap opamp, and listen again. Focus on particular aspects of the sound, and maybe each time you listen you can write down your thoughts about the bass, mids, treble, detail, transparency, neutrality and soundstage. Then compare notes._

 

Thank you Larry 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Do the ICs need some burn-in?
 Cheers


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PatLogan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thank you Larry 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Do the ICs need some burn-in?
 Cheers_

 

Not as far as I can tell.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

I posted my EF2 desktop USB DAC amp in a new thread - since these are all portables:

REVIEW: Head-direct.com HiFiMan EF2 tube Hybrid Amp with USB DAC - Head-Fi: Covering Headphones, Earphones and Portable Audio


----------



## thechungster

Right since my HF2 order has been confirmed, I need to look for a good cheap DAC/amp for them. 
 Do you think that the HF2's need an amp, or are they fine if they are ran of an iPod touch?
 Let's say budget of around £100, which would you say is the "best" for a Grado HF2?


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *thechungster* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Right since my HF2 order has been confirmed, I need to look for a good cheap DAC/amp for them. 
 Do you think that the HF2's need an amp, or are they fine if they are ran of an iPod touch?
 Let's say budget of around £100, which would you say is the "best" for a Grado HF2?_

 

Head-direct.com HiFiMan EF2 tube hybrid with USB DAC. I have a recent review on it, and it works well with most headphones and IEM, including HF-2: REVIEW: Head-direct.com HiFiMan EF2 tube Hybrid Amp with USB DAC - Head-Fi: Covering Headphones, Earphones and Portable Audio


----------



## Baines93

Larry, that is insanely epic! Grown alot since I last looked! Thankyou for spending the time to do it - a credit to the community! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Looks like an Icon Mobile and D1001's are on my list FOR SURE now! The Denons sound well rounded and pretty balanced from what i've read, and the Icon Mobile should thrash my Behringer and Micro Amp combo, mainly as the Behringer isn't a great source for it really! Ideally i'd like to keep the Micro Amp, grab an Alien DAC, and D1001's for a great rig, but I can't afford to right now! So, Micro Amp is out (so long as someone buys it!) and finally I can get some comfy balanced sounding home cans suitable for around the house (closed!) and not have to lug an amp that is too hissy with my only decent cans, my Livewires, a bad source of a DAC, a power supply, AND a 500g step down transformer for the power supply to Dads whenever I chose to go there for a few days! - and I get a break from stuffed ear canals and constantly taking IEM's out all day (when Mum talks!) with the Denon's!

 One day I will replace the Micro Amp, and hopefully be able to get the Micro DAC too, and D5000's! But for now, only way is to sell the Micro Amp, and get better suited gear for the constant moving between homes, and my Livewires...and more gear with a pair of cans for home use too, finally! - Oh I can't wait until finances for a car and insurance is sorted! Big spendddddd time! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Just hope the Icon Mobile won't have problems with shielding with the Nokia N97 I plan to use as a (miniature version of a netbook like) source at home... Might need the Icon with the D1001's when using the N97. From your review it sounds okay though 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






 Is the synergy any good with the Livewires? I hope so, even though they'll only be used with it on occasion, the D2 and N97 will drive the Livewires fine on the go, and when i'm at home, the Denon's will be in use so. Still, good synergy is a bonus in case my soon-to-be-bought Denon's ever have to go (hope not!) and i'm back with just Livewires, or for when i'm ever travelling with the laptop on trains alot (if ever!)...

 Wow ramble-a-thon!

 Anyway, cheers for the hard work and great review Larry... Set me on the Icon Mobile for sure now, especially for the $80 i've seen them on the forum for! Budget rig FTW! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Matt


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Baines93* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Larry, that is insanely epic! Grown alot since I last looked! Thankyou for spending the time to do it - a credit to the community! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Looks like an Icon Mobile and D1001's are on my list FOR SURE now! The Denons sound well rounded and pretty balanced from what i've read, and the Icon Mobile should thrash my Behringer and Micro Amp combo, mainly as the Behringer isn't a great source for it really! Ideally i'd like to keep the Micro Amp, grab an Alien DAC, and D1001's for a great rig, but I can't afford to right now! So, Micro Amp is out (so long as someone buys it!) and finally I can get some comfy balanced sounding home cans suitable for around the house (closed!) and not have to lug an amp that is too hissy with my only decent cans, my Livewires, a bad source of a DAC, a power supply, AND a 500g step down transformer for the power supply to Dads whenever I chose to go there for a few days! - and I get a break from stuffed ear canals and constantly taking IEM's out all day (when Mum talks!) with the Denon's!

 One day I will replace the Micro Amp, and hopefully be able to get the Micro DAC too, and D5000's! But for now, only way is to sell the Micro Amp, and get better suited gear for the constant moving between homes, and my Livewires...and more gear with a pair of cans for home use too, finally! - Oh I can't wait until finances for a car and insurance is sorted! Big spendddddd time! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Just hope the Icon Mobile won't have problems with shielding with the Nokia N97 I plan to use as a (miniature version of a netbook like) source at home... Might need the Icon with the D1001's when using the N97. From your review it sounds okay though 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






 Is the synergy any good with the Livewires? I hope so, even though they'll only be used with it on occasion, the D2 and N97 will drive the Livewires fine on the go, and when i'm at home, the Denon's will be in use so. Still, good synergy is a bonus in case my soon-to-be-bought Denon's ever have to go (hope not!) and i'm back with just Livewires, or for when i'm ever travelling with the laptop on trains alot (if ever!)...

 Wow ramble-a-thon!

 Anyway, cheers for the hard work and great review Larry... Set me on the Icon Mobile for sure now, especially for the $80 i've seen them on the forum for! Budget rig FTW! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Matt_

 

I don't recall what I thought of the Nuforce with Livewires. I also don't use the Livewires much ever since I got my Westone ES3X in February, and my son has taken over the Nuforce amp for a while now.

 Using the USB input the Nuforce sounds better than with analog input - I added a note to my review a few months ago (around the time of CES show) that it seems to get brighter and more forward via analog input than USB input. LW should be fine with USB input, but I am not sure about with analog input.

 I did a review looking at certain IEM + amp combos for synergy, and I would look at that for amp suggestions for amping the Livewires. You can extrapolate conclusions for DAC/amps not in that review, based on my descriptions of the amps compared in this review. Synergy between Portable Amps and IEMs - 9 IEM compared with 9 portable amps = 81 chances to mess up! - Head-Fi: Covering Headphones, Earphones and Portable Audio


----------



## thechungster

Wow not bad at all. Thanks HPA, always a brilliant help. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Just a tiny bit over budget (Due to currency rates) but nevertheless, I will look into this amp. All I need is money after spending it all on the HF2's -_-


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *thechungster* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wow not bad at all. Thanks HPA, always a brilliant help. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Just a tiny bit over budget (Due to currency rates) but nevertheless, I will look into this amp. All I need is money after spending it all on the HF2's -_-_

 

EF2 is the closest thing to meet your DAC/amp/HF2 needs at near the price you specify. The cheaper portable DAC/amps like Vivid V1 and Nuforce Icon Mobile would not be my choice with the HF-2 as they are not their best with Grados. They will get the job done for $100, but when you've heard better it's hard to recommend them for your headphones.

 The Nuforce Icon desktop is also good with HF-2, although not quite as good with HF-2 as the EF2, and it also has a DAC like the EF2, but the EF2 is $189 vs $249 - so that is out. Another option for DAC/amp for HF-2 is the Travagans Green and it is about the same price as the EF2 but also not quite as good for HF-2 as the EF2. 

 The portables that sound best with HF-2 and have DAC's will cost more than EF2 as well, such as the iBasso D3 and above, including D10, 3MOVE, XM5, Predator, etc. The D2 Boa could do a decent job with the HF-2, but at close to the price of the EF2 and it's not as good with HF-2 as the EF2.


----------



## Doodle07

hey, the d2+ was just released by ibasso 3 days ago, and i was wondering if anybody has had a chance to listen to it yet. their site says:

 Changes:
 Volume pot changed from ALPHAS'to ALPS', with new volume knob.
 Main filter caps changed from NCC's to Nichicon's
 Case changed from anodized finish to matt finish
 Line out function added
 Some minor changes on Amp and DAC sections

 (from iBasso )

 i was wondering how it sounded compared to the old d2.


----------



## LilGator

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The portables that sound best with HF-2 and have DAC's will cost more than EF2 as well, such as the iBasso D3 and above, including D10, 3MOVE, XM5, Predator, etc. The D2 Boa could do a decent job with the HF-2, but at close to the price of the EF2 and it's not as good with HF-2 as the EF2._

 

Hi Larry, want to thank you for your informative thread and work- it's much appreciated.

 Since the EF2 was brought up here, I was wondering what you thought about it in comparison to the D2+ Boa for D2000's or the new Shure SRH840's. Portability isn't an issue, and if you have any better suggestions in the same ballpark, that would be awesome!


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LilGator* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi Larry, want to thank you for your informative thread and work- it's much appreciated.

 Since the EF2 was brought up here, I was wondering what you thought about it in comparison to the D2+ Boa for D2000's or the new Shure SRH840's. Portability isn't an issue, and if you have any better suggestions in the same ballpark, that would be awesome! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

D2 Boa is pretty decent with D2000 (haven't tried the new D2+), but the D3 is even better and has the line out feature like the D2+. However, the D3 experiences more RF interference and is a no-no if you have a GSM cell phone. Regardless, if you don't need portable I think I would still prefer the EF2 over those.

 The Shure 840's I heard on a desktop amp, the TTVJ FET-A, and they were nice with little closed can coloration, but I tried them for a very short time. I don't what they will run best off, although as I said before, the EF2 seems to drive everything decently.


----------



## Glareskin

Hello HeadphoneAddict and other respected HeadFi experts,

 I would appreciate it if you can give your opinion about my problem.

 I am currently using a Nuforce Icon Mobile with a Sennheiser PXC 450. Yes I am a business traveller and this is how it started. I used to have an iPod with a mediocre quality Aiwa noise-cancelling headphone for many years. Last year I decided to invest in a more high-end solution for the nc headphone and the Sennheiser was a fact. The sound quality was of course remarkably better but the iPod didn't have enough power to feed the Sennheiser. This is how I found the world of head-fi. As a home high-end freak I didn't even know of the existance of this world. After reading some threads on this forum I decided that the Icon Mobile would be good enough for me (I came from standard remember). The Icon had a far better sound quality than the iPod itself but hardly more power. After reading about this problem I realized I had to use the line out and bought a Qables interlink. This solved the problem for a big part; I do have acceptable power but the Icon is not really 'driving' the Sennheiser.
 Now I am at the point of buyinga more powerfull, better quality amp. I wanted to purchase the RS-71A blackbird as I have read that there is more power in this amp but Ray wrote me that he is out of black houses (a must imo) and it will be uncertain if he will produce again. 
 After reading about the new D-10 I think that maybe this could be my amp. Would the D-10 have enough in house to really empower my Sennheiser?
 Thanks for your answer(s).
 Hans


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Glareskin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hello HeadphoneAddict and other respected HeadFi experts,

 I would appreciate it if you can give your opinion about my problem.

 I am currently using a Nuforce Icon Mobile with a Sennheiser PXC 450. Yes I am a business traveller and this is how it started. I used to have an iPod with a mediocre quality Aiwa noise-cancelling headphone for many years. Last year I decided to invest in a more high-end solution for the nc headphone and the Sennheiser was a fact. The sound quality was of course remarkably better but the iPod didn't have enough power to feed the Sennheiser. This is how I found the world of head-fi. As a home high-end freak I didn't even know of the existance of this world. After reading some threads on this forum I decided that the Icon Mobile would be good enough for me (I came from standard remember). The Icon had a far better sound quality than the iPod itself but hardly more power. After reading about this problem I realized I had to use the line out and bought a Qables interlink. This solved the problem for a big part; I do have acceptable power but the Icon is not really 'driving' the Sennheiser.
 Now I am at the point of buyinga more powerfull, better quality amp. I wanted to purchase the RS-71A blackbird as I have read that there is more power in this amp but Ray wrote me that he is out of black houses (a must imo) and it will be uncertain if he will produce again. 
 After reading about the new D-10 I think that maybe this could be my amp. Would the D-10 have enough in house to really empower my Sennheiser?
 Thanks for your answer(s).
 Hans_

 

Noise Canceling headphones have an amp built-in which it uses to reproduce the music without the offending "engine drone" and such, and some also EQ the sound to improve the faults of the drivers. Your lack of volume may be a sign that the Senn PXC450 just don't have enough power with any source feeding it - be it a headphone out jack or a powerful amp. Other N/C headphones may have more power. My ATH-ANC7 N/C headphones can be run from my iPod headphone out. The D10 should be a good choice, but I don't know if the problem is lack of input power levels or lack of power in the PXC 450.


----------



## Glareskin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Noise Canceling headphones have an amp built-in which it uses to reproduce the music without the offending "engine drone" and such, and some also EQ the sound to improve the faults of the drivers. Your lack of volume may be a sign that the Senn PXC450 just don't have enough power with any source feeding it - be it a headphone out jack or a powerful amp. Other N/C headphones may have more power. My ATH-ANC7 N/C headphones can be run from my iPod headphone out. The D10 should be a good choice, but I don't know if the problem is lack of input power levels or lack of power in the PXC 450._

 

Thanks Larry for your expert opinion. I have good hopes that there is something to get from the input power side as the difference in using the line-out was significant. My Aiwa nc headphone was also well served from the iPod out but obviously the Senn's need more input power. I will order the D10, if it will not help I will at least have the improved sound quality. I will post the result. 

 Thanks,

 Hans


----------



## Glareskin

Ordered yesterday (saturday). Hope I will receive it within the next week.........


----------



## Glareskin

D10 just arrived. Very good job iBasso! Ordered on Saturday evening, no reply until Monday but allready here in The Netherlands! 
 First impression of the delivery. Very complete, includes a rolling kit, a warranty card, a leather look pouch, optical cable, iPod-amp cable, USB charging cable and an adapter to connect the USB charging cable to the mains. Unfortunately this is a non European 115 Volt plug but hey, I am not complaining.
 The D10 looks way better than on the pictures. I had expected it to be bigger. In real it is pretty small, has a good build quality and the silver look volume knob that looked so hughe and ugly on the pictures is really nice to see in the real world. 
 First listening experience: directly better differentiation, more space and room and better clarity than the Icon Mobile. And my original goal: more power than the NuForce? Definitely: I can push the Sennheiser to the limit, both with nc and with bypassed nc allthough I am not 100% sure if I push the Senn or the D10 to the limit.... It doesn't matter as the sound level where it is happening is more than you can listen to without damaging your hearing anyway. The real test for power will be next week when I am flying again. Also good to know that the built-in amp in the Senn is very well trimmed to the power handling capacity of the speakers; both with nc and bypassed distortion comes in at about the same volume. Or does this mean the D10 is at it's end? I can imagine the SR 71A with it's dual 9V batteries has a bit more reserves here but again I think you are going to damage your ears with more.
 In the first listening hour I play with the EQ settings of my iPod and notice that with the standard chip set in the D10 the setting 'acoustic' adds extra stage to the sound. 
 My first overall impression: very impressed. I have high expectations of the sound quality after a couple of hundred of hours. First then I will start some rolling experiments.
 The Cobra has bitten me with his poisonous teeth. I am infected. Highly recomendable.


----------



## Scott_Tarlow

Hey have you compared the power of the Pico Amp to the Power of the Headroom Micro Amp? I was thinking of using my Pico Dac/AMp too feed a Headroom Micro Amp.


----------



## LionPlushie

possible to do a review on govibe magnum? lol


----------



## PatLogan

Dear Larry,
 I received the D10 + hiflight topkit.
 D10 amp is really very very good, the best I've heard, thank you for your advice!
 Concerning the topkit, there is a hiss with my UM1 but no hiss with a good dual driver (earsonics EM2-PRO). So I'll wait I have a better headphone to use it...
 Concerning the DAC, it is really better with optical connection than with usb.
 Do you know why ? is it a specification of the D10 or is it always like this with DACs ?
 Do you know if the D10 can read 24bits flac files if plugged on a SqueezeBox Duet ?
 Thank you,
 Pat


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PatLogan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Dear Larry,
 I received the D10 + hiflight topkit.
 D10 amp is really very very good, the best I've heard, thank you for your advice!
 Concerning the topkit, there is a hiss with my UM1 but no hiss with a good dual driver (earsonics EM2-PRO). So I'll wait I have a better headphone to use it...
 Concerning the DAC, it is really better with optical connection than with usb.
 Do you know why ? is it a specification of the D10 or is it always like this with DACs ?
 Do you know if the D10 can read 24bits flac files if plugged on a SqueezeBox Duet ?
 Thank you,
 Pat_

 

The D10 optical is better because the nicer Wolfson 8741 is doing the conversion instead of the PCM2706 USB receiver chip which converts it to SPDIF before the Wolfon DAC.

 Some DACs do USB as well as optical, such as the Stello DA100, PS Audio DLIII, Apogee Mini-DAC (and Pico DAC sounds very close). All of those are upsampling DAC.

 I don't know about squeezebox. I know D10 will do 24 bit optical with my Macbook Pro.


----------



## AB1993

How does the D2 plus boa work with yuin pk-1????


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *AB1993* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How does the D2 plus boa work with yuin pk-1????_

 

I have heard people say the Yuin sounded a little like Grados, so I suspect it would sound fine, but I haven't heard them yet.


----------



## AB1993

ok let me know if you get a chance to hear them i just ordered my yuin's and d2 plus boa... cant wait to hear them


----------



## qusp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Glareskin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_D10 just arrived. Very good job iBasso! Ordered on Saturday evening, no reply until Monday but allready here in The Netherlands!_

 

yeah their shipping service is insanely quick

  Quote:


 The D10 looks way better than on the pictures. I had expected it to be bigger. In real it is pretty small, has a good build quality and the silver look volume knob that looked so hughe and ugly on the pictures is really nice to see in the real world. 
 

I think they have actually changed the volume knob since the pictures were taken; I know they have on the D2+


  Quote:


 First listening experience: directly better differentiation, more space and room and better clarity than the Icon Mobile. And my original goal: more power than the NuForce? Definitely: I can push the Sennheiser to the limit, both with nc and with bypassed nc allthough I am not 100% sure if I push the Senn or the D10 to the limit...
 It doesn't matter as the sound level where it is happening is more than you can listen to without damaging your hearing anyway. . 
 

could be the D10 if its happening with whichever source, the stock opamps are not the most powerful, PM hiflight for details of upgraded opamps with more power if you need it. more power is always a good thing IMO; you may not be using them at their volume limit, but more power will have more control of the transducers

  Quote:


 The real test for power will be next week when I am flying again. Also good to know that the built-in amp in the Senn is very well trimmed to the power handling capacity of the speakers; both with nc and bypassed distortion comes in at about the same volume. Or does this mean the D10 is at it's end? I can imagine the SR 71A with it's dual 9V batteries has a bit more reserves here but again I think you are going to damage your ears with more. 
 

see above, but since you are limited by the power reserves of the senn amp, perhaps this does not matter. it is actually possible that it is the amp in the senns that is clipping from being overloaded with too much volume from the D10, not the transducers themselves or the D10



  Quote:


 In the first listening hour I play with the EQ settings of my iPod and notice that with the standard chip set in the D10 the setting 'acoustic' adds extra stage to the sound. 
 

the use of EQ on ipod is not recommended; it is additive EQ, so will cause clipping in the bands of signal it boosts

  Quote:


 My first overall impression: very impressed. I have high expectations of the sound quality after a couple of hundred of hours. First then I will start some rolling experiments. 
 

I agree its best you get to know the stock sound well before starting to roll, but of course do what you like. this way you may have a better idea of what changes are made, rather than it being mixed with burn-in and getting used to the sound of the D10.


  Quote:


 The Cobra has bitten me with his poisonous teeth. I am infected. Highly recomendable. 
 

congrats; its really a great little dac/amp, but I think you are limiting its potential with a number of factors
 1. the use of active noise canceling headphones will be degrading the signal, perhaps if you need isolation try some IEMs. 

 2. the use of ipod additive EQ will be degrading the sound

 3. only utilizing the USB input

 @ Patlogan: BTW the hiss is caused by a combination of low impedance and high sensitivity, nothing to do with the quality of the HP's. my JH13; widely considered here to be the best sounding IEms currently on the market are low impedence and fairly high sensitivity, so will hiss with some sources. UM3x are the same. if you cant stand hiss; either buy some less sensitive headphones or buy an impedance/resistance adapter. otherwise you will just be throwing money at a problem and it wont be a solution


----------



## Optiplex

Hi All-

 I've been following this thread and am considering getting the D10. My question is, will the D10's DAC be on par with, say, a desktop DAC such as the Cambridge Audio DACMAgic or the Compass DAC?

 I'll primarily be using the DAC at a desk, so portability (or lack thereof) is not an issue.

 Thanks in advance.


----------



## qusp

havent heard the dac magic, but absolutely the dac is at least on par with the compass IMO; I actually prefer it.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Optiplex* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi All-

 I've been following this thread and am considering getting the D10. My question is, will the D10's DAC be on par with, say, a desktop DAC such as the Cambridge Audio DACMAgic or the Compass DAC?

 I'll primarily be using the DAC at a desk, so portability (or lack thereof) is not an issue.

 Thanks in advance._

 

I believe you will be pleased with it on the level of many $300-400 desktop DACs. (aside from the one experiment where we tried to connect several DAC to one source with an SPDIF distribution center and feed them all into a pre-amp and then feed that out to 4-5 amps with a mishmash of cables and compare DACs)

 At other times I have compared the D10 to the Pico, Duet and Headroom Micro DAC and they are all very close with slight differences, depending on the digital source.


----------



## Optiplex

HeadphoneAddict/ Qusp-

 Thanks for your input, I trust your experience and expertise and will be putting an order in for the D10 shortly. I'm currently using the Nuforce Icon Mobile with my Denon AH-D2000s and Shure SE530s, and am certainly looking forward to the upgraded DAC.

 Thanks again!


----------



## lapacho

i'm running on 3move+hd600, will be d10 good replacement of 3m? (better dac/opamps!?) 

 which portable dac/amp you use with hd600 the most?

 thanks


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *lapacho* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i'm running on 3move+hd600, will be d10 good replacement of 3m? (better dac/opamps!?) 

 which portable dac/amp you use with hd600 the most?

 thanks_

 

I replied in more detail in the other thread you asked this in - for HD600 stick with the 3MOVE.


----------



## qusp

only Lisa III will give you an upgrade with HD600 over 3 move and it has no dac, coiuld use it with the 3move dac though I guess, but wont be as portable


----------



## Glareskin

qusp;5998199 said:
			
		

> yeah their shipping service is insanely quick
> 
> I think they have actually changed the volume knob since the pictures were taken; I know they have on the D2+
> 
> ...


----------



## qusp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Glareskin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Again the clipping appears both with the built-in Sennheiser amp and in bypass mode at the same level. So either both the Sennheiser amp and the iBasso lack power or it occurs due to the speakers. Do you think I could gain some from rolling?

 Also using a noise-cancelling headphone could reduce sound quality but using it in Airplanes almost exclusively I think the lack of airplane noise makes it still the better choice over normal headphones don't you agree? AFAIK the PXC-450 is the best in the market._

 

well I just checked out your headphones specs. with noise canceling switched off, the impedance is 150 ohms; which should be perfectly manageable with the D10, especially with a good choice of opamps with better output power than stock. but once you switch the noise canceling on, the impedance jumps right up to 750ohms!!!! OMG that is 2.5x harder to drive then HD600!! it appears the unit doesnt actually amplify at all, but simply processes the sound. they are apparently set this high to enable them to be used better on airplanes. these headphones are not at all suited to portable use because of this if you plan on using the noise canceling. no matter what opamps yo put in the D10, you will still have issues; hell even my Lisa III would have some issues powering them properly.

 I recommend getting yourself some more suitable headphones; if you really need isolation; get some quality IEMs, I use mine on the plane regularly with very good results, both my westone UM3X and JH13 customs block noise so effectively that I sometimes must bring my shure PTH module with me unless I want to be taking then out all the time to hear people, just pausing the music is not always enough. passive noise canceling with many IEMs is not only very effective (westone are very good in this area) but also does not degrade the sound like active processing does. so no I dont agree they are the best for your purposes at all, unless you want to be stuck with the airplane music and even then I actually doubt they sound 'better' than UM3X. UM3X have noise attenuation of around -26db (havent got the manual here, but its something in that realm) which is enough to block out airplane rumble quite effectively


----------



## qusp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Optiplex* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_HeadphoneAddict/ Qusp-

 Thanks for your input, I trust your experience and expertise and will be putting an order in for the D10 shortly. I'm currently using the Nuforce Icon Mobile with my Denon AH-D2000s and Shure SE530s, and am certainly looking forward to the upgraded DAC.

 Thanks again!_

 

no problem man; glad to help. I think you are gonna really love it; the icon is not even in the same league IMO


----------



## Baines93

I'm not sure if i'm being silly here, but, HPA, with the Icon Mobile, will I be able to bypass it's amp, taking the analog signal from the output of the DAC, and running it straight into powered speakers (like Audioengine A2's)? I think the answer is no, as there is no line-level output with the Icon Mobile is there? 

 I do however doubt that there would be a large difference in quality powering the self-powered speakers straight from the headphone output of the Icon Mobile, instead of with a DAC or DAC/amp with a line-out... what do you think?

 I guess I could buy an Alien DAC or something aswell when it comes to buying my future speaker setup in the new year, and just having both plugged in, switching between them.

 I could just use the Alien -> Icon Mobile amp -> headphones, but from what I have read, the Icon Mobile's DAC is superior to the amp. I want the amp for the ipod though, and right now, the Nuforce fits the budget perfectly 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Or I keep the Icon Mobile I have lined up, for my ipod, laptop, and Denon's (soon to be D2ks I bet!) - and buy an Alien for a true lineout from my laptop, to a T-Amp or something, and some passive nearfield monitors. More expensive, but should yield better results I think.

 Any ideas? (Mainly on the Nuforce & lineout thing...)

 Thanks alot,

 Matt


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Baines93* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm not sure if i'm being silly here, but, HPA, with the Icon Mobile, will I be able to bypass it's amp, taking the analog signal from the output of the DAC, and running it straight into powered speakers (like Audioengine A2's)? I think the answer is no, as there is no line-level output with the Icon Mobile is there? 

 I do however doubt that there would be a large difference in quality powering the self-powered speakers straight from the headphone output of the Icon Mobile, instead of with a DAC or DAC/amp with a line-out... what do you think?

 I guess I could buy an Alien DAC or something aswell when it comes to buying my future speaker setup in the new year, and just having both plugged in, switching between them.

 I could just use the Alien -> Icon Mobile amp -> headphones, but from what I have read, the Icon Mobile's DAC is superior to the amp. I want the amp for the ipod though, and right now, the Nuforce fits the budget perfectly 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Or I keep the Icon Mobile I have lined up, for my ipod, laptop, and Denon's (soon to be D2ks I bet!) - and buy an Alien for a true lineout from my laptop, to a T-Amp or something, and some passive nearfield monitors. More expensive, but should yield better results I think.

 Any ideas? (Mainly on the Nuforce & lineout thing...)

 Thanks alot,

 Matt 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Only a few DAC/amps pass the pure line-out signal un-amped, and that includes but not limited to the iBasso D2+, D3, D4, and D10. The Nuforce Icon desktop has a pre-amp out which is controlled by the volume knob but not driven by the headphone amp section. The CARAT-TOPAZ has an RCA line out, and the Micro DAC has a 1/8" line out like the iBasso DAC/amps, and it sounds very nice.

 Line out is not always better, as the Fubar III line out was not as good as the HP out of the top 5 or 6 headphone out in this review. I think most of these DAC/amps are clean enough to feed any of their HP out into the Audioengine A2 and such. The A2 are very nice but not as resolving as my custom IEM (or livewires), and so there is only a small improvement in treble crispness via the D10 or Pico DAC-only line out. And the Nuforce might actually even help with the A2 bass bloom and mildly recessed treble. In my case I EQ my A2 in iTunes and use a cheap $39 Headstage USB DAC Cable out of my 4-port hub to feed the A2. I wore out a 1/8" mini-mini by frequently switching between IEM and my A2 speakers out of the D10, and then discovered that the old Headstage was not really bad or anything.

 If you were feeding a high end desktop amp then a line out would be nicer or mandatory if you had most of these DAC/amp in the review, but even the Pico and D10 headphone out are both clean enough to drive a $2500 electrostatic amp and the sound doesn't suffer.


----------



## jjsoviet

Hi. I'm new to this and so far I am considering this chain for home and portable use.

 Portable: iPod Touch/Classic > iBasso LOD > iBasso D2+Boa Amp > Headphones
 Home: MSI GX620 > iBasso D2+Boa DAC > Little Dot MKIII Amp > Headphones


 My headphones are the HD 238, K518 DJ, and maybe an Alessandro MS-1. Is this chain good or would you recommend a better solution? Is the Boa and the MKIII good together? Thanks.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jjsoviet* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi. I'm new to this and so far I am considering this chain for home and portable use.

 Portable: iPod Touch/Classic > iBasso LOD > iBasso D2+Boa Amp > Headphones
 Home: MSI GX620 > iBasso D2+Boa DAC > Little Dot MKIII Amp > Headphones


 My headphones are the HD 238, K518 DJ, and maybe an Alessandro MS-1. Is this chain good or would you recommend a better solution? Is the Boa and the MKIII good together? Thanks._

 

All the stuff in your chain looks good except I haven't heard the LD MKIII to comment on that. So, you may have to go to an LD MKIII appreciation thread or review and ask about how well it pairs with the headphones you have (or plan to get).


----------



## jjsoviet

Thanks a lot sir. Good day


----------



## Baines93

Thanks for that HPA.

 I will be going down the Denon and Icon Mobile route, as apparantly the Denon and NFIM synergy is good, and the NFIM fits the budget well at the moment, giving me a nice amp to pair with the iPod for the bedside/around-house rig... Should feed them better than the Behringer for now anyway 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 As for the speakers, still debating passive vs. self powered. I'll start feeding the speakers/reciever with the NF/Behringer RCA out, see what's best... I'll probably end up getting an Alien, or that cable... I'd thought about that. Have you heard an Alien? If so, what do you think feeds amp's etc. best?

 Thanks alot,

 As always, really appreciate your reviews, help, and opinions. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Matt


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Baines93* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks for that HPA.

 I will be going down the Denon and Icon Mobile route, as apparantly the Denon and NFIM synergy is good, and the NFIM fits the budget well at the moment, giving me a nice amp to pair with the iPod for the bedside/around-house rig... Should feed them better than the Behringer for now anyway 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 As for the speakers, still debating passive vs. self powered. I'll start feeding the speakers/reciever with the NF/Behringer RCA out, see what's best... I'll probably end up getting an Alien, or that cable... I'd thought about that. Have you heard an Alien? If so, what do you think feeds amp's etc. best?

 Thanks alot,

 As always, really appreciate your reviews, help, and opinions. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Matt_

 

I have not heard an Alien DAC, but I haven't read anything bad about them. If you get something like the Audioengine A2 powered speakers the Nuforce will do a fine job feeding them. The Nuforce is also good with many IEM except a bass-lite bright one, so good with W3, ES3X, JH13Pro, UE11pro, IE8, Denon C700, X10, etc... (not my favorite with head-direct RE2, etc)


----------



## Baines93

I don't consider the Livewires bass-light, what about you?


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Baines93* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't consider the Livewires bass-light, what about you?_

 

No, the LW have better bass than my SE530 customs, and close to the W3 but without the midbass hump. 

 However, if you think that the LW are too bright or too forward then you might not like them with the Nuforce amp. But I think the Nuforce Icon Mobile is only a little more forward and bright than the 3MOVE, with slightly less bass and soundstage and refinement - I don't recall disliking the Nuforce or 3MOVE with my LW, but I would have to listen again tomorrow and see how I feel about the combination now.

 A while back I did an Amp/IEM synergy review, before I had all the amps and IEM that I have now (and I did add to it for a while): Synergy between Portable Amps and IEMs - 9 IEM compared with 9 portable amps = 81 chances to mess up! - Head-Fi: Covering Headphones, Earphones and Portable Audio

 In it I said the following:
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAdidct* 
_Livewires Amp Ranking (best to last): The Livewires sounded good with any of the amps tested, but some were clearly better than others. They remind me of my APS re-cabled Grado RS-1.

 1. RSA Predator
 2. Headamp Pico
 3. Headstage Lyrix
 4. Penguinamp Caffeine
 5. iBasso D2 (moves up to 2nd if the LM6172 is replaced with an ISL55002)
 6. Meier HeadSix
 7. Headroom Micro Amp (treble became slightly piercing but still acceptable)_

 

Basically the Headsix was a little more forward than I liked, and the Micro Amp was a little more bright with them than I liked. The Nuforce reminds me of a bargain Headsix but without the refinement of the Headsix (but $60 cheaper and includes a DAC and A/D converter for mic). Like I said in that review, the LW sounded good with everything but some amps sound better with them than others.

 In that review I also reported that the Freq sounded good and were in second place, which is better sounding than I have been admitting to lately. So, I had them tested recently and I have one or two bad drivers in them, and am sending them to AlienEars to be repaired. I am not sure at what point that happened, but it has been a while since I have liked how they sounded.


----------



## Baines93

Thanks for that. I did own an 05 Headroom Micro Amp... Didn't like it with the Livewires. Too hissy on low gain, and too hard to control volume on high gain, but less hissy. Anyway, didn't do much for them, and didn't get used much, mainly hiss related. Sold it, and my Cowon, and i'm now going for D1001's, as they seem quite balanced, and my music taste is very open. They are apparently comfy, and fit the bill, sound bang for buck...

 And yeah, NFIM seems an upgrade, good synergy, and again, fits the bill 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Can't wait for it all to come, and buy the NFIM when i've sold the Minibox


----------



## estreeter

Hi HPA,

 I would like to capitalise on the DAC in my Topaz (source will be optical out from my Macbook Pro) and hook it up to a portable amp (preferably) for my bedroom rig, and I seem to recall that yourself or Skylab made a recommendation for a good amp to match the Topaz in another thread. Any advice greatly appreciated - budget is flexible and my musical preferences are in my sig - I like the warmth of the Topaz, but more soundstage and separation would be fantastic. 

 Thanks,

 estreeter


----------



## fishpatrol

Hi HeadphoneAddict,
 I'm considering the Livewire Duals. Reading your Synergy thread and your notes in this thread, would the D10 compare well against the Predator for IEMs? I'm listening to ALAC files on a MacBook, looking for a DAC/amp.
 Cheers


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *estreeter* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi HPA,

 I would like to capitalise on the DAC in my Topaz (source will be optical out from my Macbook Pro) and hook it up to a portable amp (preferably) for my bedroom rig, and I seem to recall that yourself or Skylab made a recommendation for a good amp to match the Topaz in another thread. Any advice greatly appreciated - budget is flexible and my musical preferences are in my sig - I like the warmth of the Topaz, but more soundstage and separation would be fantastic. 

 Thanks,

 estreeter_

 

I believe in my review of the TOPAZ ( http://www.head-fi.org/forums/5674504-post69.html ) that I felt the DAC>line out was very good but that the P-51, D10, Pico and ALO Amphora were all upgrades of varying degrees from the built-in headphone amp. I suggest pairing the TOPAZ with a decent desktop amp like the Amphora or Cavalli CTH that I mentioned in the review, or something equivalent.

 But out of the portables that I tried with the TOPAZ the P-51 would be a good fit (although for HD600 the built-in amp is a better choice). The D10 with the latest HiFlight topkit is another option, but again, not for HD600 as you primary phone.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fishpatrol* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi HeadphoneAddict,
 I'm considering the Livewire Duals. Reading your Synergy thread and your notes in this thread, would the D10 compare well against the Predator for IEMs? I'm listening to ALAC files on a MacBook, looking for a DAC/amp.
 Cheers_

 

I think they would be a good match, since the stock D10 is quite similar to a Predator but with a slightly smoothed out sound.


----------



## estreeter

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_But out of the portables that I tried with the TOPAZ the P-51 would be a good fit (although for HD600 the built-in amp is a better choice). The D10 with the latest HiFlight topkit is another option, but again, not for HD600 as you primary phone._

 

Thanks HPA - I realise that these amps weren't designed to run phones like the HD600/K601 to their potential, and that is why I am increasingly inclined to wait until I have the money for the Amphora. Having initially balked when I saw the asking price, I hadn't realised that it would run completely off the grid for 24 or so hours, making it 'transportable' if not entirely portable. Compared to something like the C2C, its form factor makes a lot of sense. 

 I cross reference your recommendations with Skylab's, then go off and try to find reviews outside Head-Fi. My shortlist was down to the P-51 and the Corda 3Move, but reading your respective opinions (along with others) of the Amphora has swayed me in that direction. I expect that you've both saved Head-Fiers a lot of time and money, although some of us seem to buy every piece of kit that comes along anyway ! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Appreciate your help.

 estreeter


----------



## Skylab

HPA and I definitely agreed that the Topaz's DAC was better than it's amp.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

I ordered an iBasso D4 the other day to add to this review. I will post updates as they become available.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *UPS* 
_LocationDateLocal TimeDescriptionWhat's This?
 SHENZHEN, CN11/07/200912:42 A.M.DEPARTURE SCAN
 SHENZHEN, CN11/06/200911:24 P.M.ORIGIN SCAN
 11/06/20096:20 P.M.PICKUP SCAN
 CN11/06/20098:24 A.M.BILLING INFORMATION RECEIVED_


----------



## estreeter

Great stuff HPA - I assume the Rx is already at your house so you can review them side-by-side ?


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *estreeter* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Great stuff HPA - I assume the Rx is already at your house so you can review them side-by-side ? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Since I use my iPhone without an amp much of the time, most of my interest has been with either very small amps, and amps with a DAC built-in. I liked the Rx at RMAF, but I don't have room in the budget for one right now.


----------



## estreeter

No probs - my request was tongue-in-cheek : I don't know how you can accumulate so much gear and not trip over it constantly !


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

WOW!

 I don't want to hype my new amp, and I try to NOT encourage a new FOTM (D10 has been my favorite for 8 months). But my iBasso D4 arrived today and right out of the box it sounds probably as good as my 1000+ hour iBasso D10 with TLE2141 class-A/EL8201 topkit. I love it already. It's not identical but pretty darn close. I've only tried it with my Grado HF-2 so far, but I don't want to stop listening. I am quite surprised that iBasso keeps upping the ante with each new amp. I am running it off 5v only since I need to charge up a 9v for it.

 I will start the mandatory 300 hours burn-in now for my review, but this is one amp that does not demand burn-in and can be enjoyed right away (unlike the D2 Viper/Boa or Predator). The D3 was better out of the box than the D2 Boa and just got better, the D10 was as good out of the box as the 700 hour D3 and just got better, and so it goes for the D4 as well I believe.


----------



## Armaegis

Somewhere in the distance, I can hear the gleeful cackle of many potential buyers...


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_WOW!

 I don't want to hype my new amp, and I try to NOT encourage a new FOTM (D10 has been my favorite for 8 months). But my iBasso D4 arrived today and right out of the box it sounds probably as good as my 1000+ hour iBasso D10 with TLE2141 class-A/EL8201 topkit. I love it already. It's not identical but pretty darn close. I've only tried it with my Grado HF-2 so far, but I don't want to stop listening. I am quite surprised that iBasso keeps upping the ante with each new amp. I am running it off 5v only since I need to charge up a 9v for it.

 I will start the mandatory 300 hours burn-in now for my review, but this is one amp that does not demand burn-in and can be enjoyed right away (unlike the D2 Viper/Boa or Predator). The D3 was better out of the box than the D2 Boa and just got better, the D10 was as good out of the box as the 700 hour D3 and just got better, and so it goes for the D4 as well I believe._

 

More sneak peak here, with IEM...

 I have tried the iBasso D4 (6 hours) with my RE252 prototype IEM, ES3X, JH13Pro and UE11Pro tonight. The amp has almost no hiss at all, with just a very faint touch in the background with the ES3X, and it is well suited to high sensititvity custom IEM. It is quiet enough to call it silent with IEM since my ES3X are normally hiss-monsters. And the D4 does not make any noise when the music is paused and the volume is turned all the way up to max. The volume knob is also good enough to play my IEM at very low volume levels before reaching any low volume channel imbalance at the bottom of the volume control (although not quite as precise as the Predator or Micro Amp, I am happy with it). 

 The D4 is useable with my UE11Pro without having too much bass or poor bass control, yet the amp is not bass-lite at all with other IEM. On top of that, while I don't feel that the D4 is a forward sounding amp, out of the D4 the UE11Pro mids do not feel recessed like when using the wrong amp with them.

 I promise not to tease you guys any more after this, before my review is done. It will take 2 weeks just to ensure I have 300 hours on the amp, so that I give it a fair comparison with the other amps.


----------



## estreeter

Happy days indeed, HPA - reading a glowing report on an amp (any amp) that sounds great straight out of the box will put a lot of smiles on the faces of those who dont want to wait 300 hours to hear what their new toy is capable of. Looking forward to further impressions. 

 As a newbie to the iBasso site, I initially went looking for it under 'Amps' - this link may help easily confused types like myself .... 

iBasso


----------



## tigon_ridge

The D4 Mamba is only $219. All budget-minded audiophiles, let us rejoice! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I'm planning on getting this for my hd650s, once I get them fixed. Woohoo!


----------



## cravenz

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tigon_ridge* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The D4 Mamba is only $219. All budget-minded audiophiles, let us rejoice! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'm planning on getting this for my hd650s, once I get them fixed. Woohoo!_

 


 I don't think the amp will be able to drive the HD650s for you to realise it's full potential though; correct me if I'm wrong though.


----------



## tigon_ridge

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cravenz* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't think the amp will be able to drive the HD650s for you to realise it's full potential though; *correct me if I'm wrong though*._

 

I think you're right. When I had the Bithead it sucked when I played through it when the hd650s. Seriously. Sucked. Bad. I had a pair of $20 buds and I couldn't really tell you which pair sounded better. >_> However, to be fair to the Headroom folks, I was a newbie to hi-fi headphone audio and I was listening with the LOW-GAIN on!!! HAHA... Wish there were a smiley that shows me banging my head onto a wall.

 However, I think the D4 Mamba is on a whole other level, far above the Bithead, and although it won't bring my hd650s to their full potential, it will probably do them justice.

 EDIT: I have to add something: I used the $20 sony bud with the amp; it didn't sound noticeably better than through the my laptop hp out. Didn't perceive any extra details. SS was still the same. Couldn't perceive any extra clarity. Can't mention anything about extension, because I wasn't paying attention to that aspect. That little thing cost me almost $200... I felt like I wasted my money. I kept it anyway, and hoped that with enough burn-in it would sound better. Don't remember how long the warranty lasted. Anyways, it's broken now. Gotta forget the past and move on.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tigon_ridge* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think you're right. When I had the Bithead it sucked when I played through it when the hd650s. Seriously. Sucked. Bad. I had a pair of $20 buds and I couldn't really tell you which pair sounded better. >_> However, to be fair to the Headroom folks, I was a newbie to hi-fi headphone audio and I was listening with the LOW-GAIN on!!! HAHA... Wish there were a smiley that shows me banging my head onto a wall.

 However, I think the D4 Mamba is on a whole other level, far above the Bithead, and although it won't bring my hd650s to their full potential, it will probably do them justice.

 EDIT: I have to add something: I used the $20 sony bud with the amp; it didn't sound noticeably better than through the my laptop hp out. Didn't perceive any extra details. SS was still the same. Couldn't perceive any extra clarity. Can't mention anything about extension, because I wasn't paying attention to that aspect. That little thing cost me almost $200... I felt like I wasted my money. I kept it anyway, and hoped that with enough burn-in it would sound better. Don't remember how long the warranty lasted. Anyways, it's broken now. Gotta forget the past and move on._

 

I hate to tell you this, but a $20 ear bud will sound like a $20 ear bud whether listening through an iPod or a $200 amp.


----------



## tigon_ridge

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I hate to tell you this, but a $20 ear bud will sound like a $20 ear bud whether listening through an iPod or a $200 amp._

 

Yeah, I suppose... but the weird thing is that those slightly less cheap KSC35 seem to get very high praise from the Amp3 lovers. How can that be explained?


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tigon_ridge* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yeah, I suppose... but the weird thing is that those slightly less cheap KSC35 seem to get very high praise from the Amp3 lovers. How can that be explained?_

 

KSC35 are in a whole different league - with a $1.99 headband they can sound close to a $99 Alessandro MS-1 headphone.


----------



## shigzeo

the amp3 is also a very hissy source and needs low-sensitivity, high ohm phones in order not to hiss. i like the amp3 and i like the kcs35, but i understand why amp3 users are rating them so highly together - one needs the other to sound good. the amp3 also has a warbly treble which, when paired with the ksc35 is a great match simply because the 35 is somewhat muted up top. for the price (assuming you live in usa where koss isn't outrageously expensive), the ksc35 is well worth its money.


----------



## mark2410

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I hate to tell you this, but a $20 ear bud will sound like a $20 ear bud whether listening through an iPod or a $200 amp._

 

not always, ive come across a couple of cheapies that can get dramatically better when amped

 but as a rule crap doesnt get better with an amp


----------



## lu-chen-chan

What dou you think would sound better with Livewires ? 
 1)
 DIYmod ipod video 5 with ibasso t3 ,
 2) or just ibasso D4 via USB?
 3)Or something else ? What is your personal advice?


----------



## estreeter

tigon_ridge, seriously, who spends $200 on an amp for a pair of earbuds costing 1/10th of that ? Until you've heard the Total Bithead with something a little further up the foodchain, I'd probably hold off on bagging HeadRoom. There products are expensive, no question, but you may as well have bought the Fiio with those buds for phones. Is there anyone here who wouldnt have spent the $200 on a pair of Grados/A-Ts or whatever in preference to an amp ?


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *lu-chen-chan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What dou you think would sound better with Livewires ? 
 1)
 DIYmod ipod video 5 with ibasso t3 ,
 2) or just ibasso D4 via USB?
 3)Or something else ? What is your personal advice?_

 

So far my pick is #2


----------



## VicAjax

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *estreeter* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_tigon_ridge, seriously, who spends $200 on an amp for a pair of earbuds costing 1/10th of that ? Until you've heard the Total Bithead with something a little further up the foodchain, I'd probably hold off on bagging HeadRoom. There products are expensive, no question, but you may as well have bought the Fiio with those buds for phones. Is there anyone here who wouldnt have spent the $200 on a pair of Grados/A-Ts or whatever in preference to an amp ?_

 

I think he bought the amp for his HD650.


----------



## bakhtiar

You can get good SQ wtih high quality headphones dac/amp + entry level IEMs, as I experimented few months ago 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f105/u...ml#post5584946

 Thank you.


----------



## tigon_ridge

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *VicAjax* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think he bought the amp for his HD650._

 

Yep.


----------



## estreeter

You were planning to drive high-end headphones with an entry-level portable amp ? I believe that many here spend thousands on the 'right' amp for the HD650 - happy to hear otherwise.


----------



## tigon_ridge

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *estreeter* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You were planning to drive high-end headphones with an entry-level portable amp ? I believe that many here spend thousands on the 'right' amp for the HD650 - happy to hear otherwise._

 

I was very new to the world of headphilism. 

 Today, I know better, but I honestly don't see myself spending thousands on _anything_. I leave this to the hardcore headphiles who has the interest and wallet to go that far. My current purchasing plan looks like this: 1st, the D4 Mamba. 2nd, the JH10x3. Then, finally, the Lune Silver cable. It should all total up to around $1200. I think (or hope) this setup will come quite close to many $2000+ setups. I'll write up some impressions to contribute back to head-fi, and perhaps answer a few questions. Afterwards, I'll leave Head-fi, without ever even glancing back, and then return 5 years later to see what'll be new (and improved).


----------



## bakhtiar

Head-fi is cost less than the audiophile speakers systems, and even cheaper with IEMs. Today you can get custom IEMS at USD250 or less, and the best IEMs cost 'just' above USD1000. Compared to speakers systems and headphones system, the portable gears are much more economical. Becaus of this, it took me around 1 year journey, to the end point of the IEMs and portable audio. Since it is portable, I can 'ENJOY' the same audio SQ anytime and anywhere. It also mean, I can fully utilizing my portable gears, and the money to purchased them are well spent. 

 I have started from speakers system, then headphones and finally the IEMs. As you can see, the size is getting smaller and smaller 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 and cheaper too. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





 Why IEMs ? I like accuracy which also closely related to High Fidelity (HiFi). . IMO, nothing can beat the IEM's accuracy, at similar price level. 


 Thank you.


----------



## cravenz

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *estreeter* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You were planning to drive high-end headphones with an entry-level portable amp ? I believe that many here spend thousands on the 'right' amp for the HD650 - happy to hear otherwise._

 

heh. hope you meant thousands altogether before finding the right amp cos' you really don't need to be spending thousands at one go just to make the 650s decently good.

 on a side note, yeah. i think it's iems and nice speakers at some point for me. when i'm at home, i'd rather just have speakers and not having to have something on my head, tho i do acknowledge that we won't be able to blast the speakers all the time. =)

 i'd like a can and amp setup that doesn't cost crazy amounts well, for me at least. and it's difficult =)


----------



## estreeter

We are getting OT, but I think its quite conceivable for someone to buy 2 or 3 amps before they find the 'right' amp for the HD650 - throw in tube rolling and I dont find it difficult to imagine someone spending thousands getting it right. I dont know what the Benchmark or Grace M902 cost in the US, but both are up around 2K here in Oz - the more exotic tube amps would be well above that. I agree that speaker rigs consume a lot more than that, but its all relative.


----------



## sohels

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tigon_ridge* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm planning on getting this for my hd650s, once I get them fixed._

 

I'm very interested in this combination. Awaiting impressions.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

With the 300 ohm HD600 there is a big difference in power between the 5v and 9v option. Voltage swing is more important with these high impedance phones current, while good current output is what the low impedance phones need. 

 At 5v the D4 plays the HD600 about as loud as a Predator or D10 which is moderately loud level but not really loud like the 3MOVE or V1. But at 9v the D4 really kicks it into gear and the HD600 seem 3-5 dB louder, plus it gives the HD600 stronger bass impact. I'll have more power comparisons in my upcoming review but in 9v mode the D4 drives the HD600 better than my P-51, Predator or D10 - the power is right behind that of the 3MOVE and V1, but it's enough for mobile situations when you can't get to a desktop amp.

 Also, for the peeps asking about Livewires with D4 - it's a great match. Same with ESW10JPN.


----------



## Eagle Eye

Great work Larry! Man I wish I had your talent and ear for sure. Have you had the chance to review the Headstage Arrow? I have one coming in the mail soon and I am wondering how it will compare to the Lyrix that I have been using. Robert also sent me a USB DAC cable to try out. If you are interested in trying out the Arrow (assuming you haven't) just send me a PM and we will try to work it out. Once again thanks for your effort on this site. You are appreciated.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Eagle Eye* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Great work Larry! Man I wish I had your talent and ear for sure. Have you had the chance to review the Headstage Arrow? I have one coming in the mail soon and I am wondering how it will compare to the Lyrix that I have been using. Robert also sent me a USB DAC cable to try out. If you are interested in trying out the Arrow (assuming you haven't) just send me a PM and we will try to work it out. Once again thanks for your effort on this site. You are appreciated._

 

Let me check with Robert, because last we chatted he was going to send a review sample but never did. I would want to review the one with built-in DAC, and I already have his USB DAC cable. The USB DAC cable sounded the same as the built-in Lyrix DAC or the iBasso D1 USB DAC, but the iBasso D1 optical DAC was a noticeable step up in sound over it's USB DAC (or the USB DAC cable).


----------



## Eagle Eye

From talking with Robert I do not think the new Arrow has the built in DAC as tha is why he sent me the cable to try out. He now is selling a USB DAC Stick on his site that amplifies the cable from the computer. He said he wanted to keep the Arrow as portable as possible. Just info, he has it on the headphonia site.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Eagle Eye* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_From talking with Robert I do not think the new Arrow has the built in DAC as tha is why he sent me the cable to try out. He now is selling a USB DAC Stick on his site that amplifies the cable from the computer. He said he wanted to keep the Arrow as portable as possible. Just info, he has it on the headphonia site._

 

Weird - last time I had checked there was an internal socket in the Arrow for a DAC module "sold separately".


----------



## foreverfi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *estreeter* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You were planning to drive high-end headphones with an entry-level portable amp ? I believe that many here spend thousands on the 'right' amp for the HD650 - happy to hear otherwise._

 

In fact HD 650 is a bit hard to boost than HD 600 or HD 800. 

 By the way, Portable amp has something compromised with power because of the battery power issue. Anyway, it is useful device for many phones. 

 Do'n't forget, HD650 is not deisgned for portable purpose.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

I haven't gotten my D4 review put together yet, but I have done most of the listening and opamp rolling, so here is some more info below, to help until I get it written up. I wrote this up a little while ago, posted in the D4 Mamba thread.

 I will break the silence by saying the D4 with the OPA1611 class-A topkit from HiFlight is my current top pick for USB DAC/Amp, based on the sound and features. HOWEVER, I am not happy with the less than 10 hour battery life to get it there. And, with the UE11Pro the $99 uDAC is much better, but it is not portable (the UE11Pro are notorious for being picky about what amp you use).

 There wont be much left to say after this and my previous posts, but I think I should still try to get it into the same format as the other amp reviews.

 ------

 I got the latest D4 topkit from HiFlight with upgraded opamps - it looks to have a pair of OPA1611A class-A biased on a 2:1 adapter, and includes bypassed buffers to use in case you are willing to give up a little refinement and bass to save battery life. It is intended to give the best sound by keeping the stock LMH6655 buffers, and simply replaces the stock AD8066 opamp. I have not tested battery life yet, but I will.

 I was already thrilled with the D4's sound when stock, which is about as good as the D10 when the D10 has it's own topkit installed (TLE2141 class-A on a 2:1 with EL8201 buffers). Now it is better than the D10 and pretty close to being an "RSA P-51 clone", so I am excited about it. 

 Here is the thought process that I recorded as I listened to the topkit, with bypassed buffers and with the stock buffers. I will have more impressions when I add my D4 review to my big USB DAC amp review soon.

*Using ES3X:*

 The D4 with stock opamps (I think AD8066/LMH6655) sounds very similar to the D10 with topkit (TLE2141 class-A/EL8201), which is actually not a whole lot different from the Pico. The Stock D10 is closer to the Predator, but with slightly rolled off or less aggressive highs. The D10 topkit opens up the highs and soundstage a little more, and slightly pulls back the mids and bass from the Predator - and this is where the D4 starts out at. Well balanced and punchy, with excellent transparency, leaning towards neutral with a nudge to the side of warmth.

 We compared the D10 with topkit to the P-51 at RMAF and I felt there were similarities - with the D10 being slightly more recessed in the mids and a little rolled off in the highs vs the P-51 being the biggest difference. There is also slightly less bass in the D10 with topkit when compared to the Predator, but it's still in line with the P-51 bass and the stock D4 was no different. So, I felt the same way when comparing the stock D4 - it was close but not quite as good as the P-51, but easily on the level of the Pico or Predator or 3MOVE which are in the top tier of portable amps, despite having slightly different sound signatures.

 The D4 with the new topkit is a little more energetic and not as laid back as the stock opamps. It sounds more alive like the P-51 or Predator. The middle and upper mids are a little more present and fuller but it doesn't seem to affect the soundstage size even though it makes it slightly more forward and energetic sounding. The D10 with topkit and stock D4 were both slightly rolled off in the highs and slightly more laid back vs P-51 - so the D4 topkit brings it closer to the P-51 highs; however the bass isn't up to the level of the P-51 with the buffers bypassed. The D4 topkit highs have more depth into the music than the stock opamps where it is slightly recessed.

 But while the D4 topkit highs are not rolled off vs the P-51 anymore, they are still not quite as natural or sweet as the P-51 highs with the ES3X. And, with Kathleen Edwards "Back to Me" the highs are still too sibilant due to poor recording combined with a little bit of lower treble tilt to the topkit. 

 Still, it is another step forward in the sound.

*With JH13Pro:*

 This is even better than ES3X with the new topkit, as there is more synergy. I hear a bigger difference between the amps and topkits with JH13Pro than with ES3X. Again, not as laid back in the mids as the stock opamps, or D10 with topkit, or Pico - but in a good way. Compared to the Predator, D4 topkit fills in the JH13Pro mids like the Predator, but the topkit is not as rolled off in the highs and also does not have as much bass as the Predator - with most music that is okay. 

*Modified topkit* (new opamps, but retain the stock buffers) - Putting the LMH6655 buffers back in improves the D4 bass response to be closer to the the P-51 bass (slightly below the Predator bass levels). This was much better sounding, and the overall sound was also a bit warmer and refined sounding than with the bypassed buffers. With Hans Zimmer "Batman Begins - Molossus" has deep throbbing bass and crisp strings, where I was wishing for just a little more bass without the LMH6655. The Pico sounded less clear and defined and more recessed in the mids vs the D4 with OPA1611 class-A/LMH6655, with both using their USB DAC. Wow!

 The 3MOVE with this music and JH13pro actually had slightly more bass than the D4 or others (like Predator), but was slightly more forward and less open. I wanted to say that the modified topkit is not too different from the 3MOVE amp, but with a nicer DAC giving better micro-detail, and slightly better highs than 3MOVE, and with a little more balanced bass presence vs the 3MOVE. Which means it's not really like the 3MOVE, which is very good in it's own way.

*So, in summary* - the D4 with modified topkit (new opamps, stock buffers) is actually closest to the P-51 Mustang when feeding the D4 line-out into the P-51 with an 18G Jumbo Cryo Silver X mini-mini. I can go back and forth between the D4's built-in DAC and Amp and the D4's DAC feeding the P-51 and I am quite happy with both, finding them to sound very similar. I am leaving the D4 set up this way as a "P-51 clone" for the time being. I have to run through a plethora of headphones and IEM again, with the new topkit installed.


----------



## kostalex

Please, please post some brief notes on D4 vs Pico amp/DAC comparison in DAC only mode, driving another amp, using D4 line out as well as HP out.


----------



## kostalex

(shameless manipulation) This would be a nice Christmas gift to all of your loyal readers!


----------



## GandalfLux

hi,

 Can i ask a little question to you.....

 Enter a XM5 and an iBasso D10 what is your choice ???

 It's really hard do decide.... Because in your test isn't the night and the day enter this two AMP/DAC.

 I think this two is good .

 I read the Se 530 si a little bad with the bass and i think is possible the Bass Bost of the XM5 can help me with a little music. but i read the DAC is really not good compare the iBasso.


 So you the great Head-Fi'er can you help a little frenchy 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			






 All apologize for my english ...


 Thanks for your help


----------



## mrarroyo

Larry, how about posting pictures of the D4 w/ the modified TopKit. Thanks.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GandalfLux* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_hi,

 Can i ask a little question to you.....

 Enter a XM5 and an iBasso D10 what is your choice ???

 It's really hard do decide.... Because in your test isn't the night and the day enter this two AMP/DAC.

 I think this two is good .

 I read the Se 530 si a little bad with the bass and i think is possible the Bass Bost of the XM5 can help me with a little music. but i read the DAC is really not good compare the iBasso.


 So you the great Head-Fi'er can you help a little frenchy 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





 All apologize for my english ...


 Thanks for your help 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I really like the XM5 amp section sound, and it is more powerful than the D10 with more options and settings. The DAC is not as detailed or transparent or spacious as the D10 DAC, but it's perfectly acceptable. It uses the same PCM2703E Japan that the 3MOVE uses, and it's very close in quality to the 3MOVE in sound with my AD8065 opamps and BUF634 buffers installed. 

 And, if you got the XM5 it will improve with an upgraded DAC that you could plug into the XM5 if you decided to do that later. For example, you could always add a Nuforce uDAC for $99 to have a DAC as good as the D10 or Pico's DAC, and feed that into the XM5 or even use the uDAC headphone out - saving the XM5 for when you listen with your iPod or non-computer source. In my case, I would prefer an XM5 + uDAC + opamp upgrades over the "Pico with DAC", and the combo is still less money.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mrarroyo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Larry, how about posting pictures of the D4 w/ the modified TopKit. Thanks._

 

I'll try to get to that later, but are you sure nobody has already posted a photo in the other D4 threads?


----------



## GandalfLux

Really thanks ... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I think i buy an Ibasso D10 . but is possible i sell it for take an XM5 LOL

 So now i think is better interessant to have an Optical input and Coax input maybe i never use it but i test with my squeezebox later.

 Really thanks for all.


 Best regards,

 Gandalf


----------



## mrarroyo

Larry, at my age I am not sure of anything anymore!


----------



## plumpcheek

Thanks for your review, I'd like to ask about using D10 with uDac as source via coaxial. Is it a good combo? 
 Thanks in advance and happy new year


----------



## Agent_Moler

Hey Larry,

 A question. So if a person was deciding between buying an RSA predator or P 51 vs a D4 with a top kit, which do you think would be the better choice? I'm in this boat, I own a 2move and a D10 and I'm considering my next amp. I'm very curious about how the predator sounds and from what you've stated before, I can model the sound by OPAMP rolling my D10. Do you think it really approaches the authentic sound of the predator though?


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *plumpcheek* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks for your review, I'd like to ask about using D10 with uDac as source via coaxial. Is it a good combo? 
 Thanks in advance and happy new year 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

The uDAC is very slightly better as a DAC than the D10 via USB, but the D10 via optical/coax can match it. Which leaves us wondering how good is the uDAC USB > S/PDIF converter. The D10 uses the same PCM2706 chip to convert USB > S/PDIF internally, so it should do S/PDIF conversion just as well as the uDAC. 

 Where the uDAC draws it's strength is in it's ESS Sabre 9022 DAC chip that is doing the decoding, and sending it out through the RCA jacks. It might be possible to get a slight improvement by feeding the uDAC RCA into the D10 amp, and ignoring the D10 DAC, but the D10 via USB is still very good. 

 If you don't think the D10 via USB is good enough you don't have much to lose by trying the uDAC feeding the D10, because you could sell which ever you didn't like more. But it might not be cost effective to be feeding a uDAC into the D10 for that last few % improvement in sound.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Agent_Moler* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hey Larry,

 A question. So if a person was deciding between buying an RSA predator or P 51 vs a D4 with a top kit, which do you think would be the better choice? I'm in this boat, I own a 2move and a D10 and I'm considering my next amp. I'm very curious about how the predator sounds and from what you've stated before, I can model the sound by OPAMP rolling my D10. Do you think it really approaches the authentic sound of the predator though?_

 

A lot depends on whether you need more than 8-10 hours of battery life, and whether you need the small size of the P-51 or Predator (or Shadow or Pico Slim). The stock D4's sound signature falls between the Pico and the P-51, and slightly better than the D10 with topkit (different opamps than D4 topkit). Skylab rated the D4 tied in 3rd place with the Pico and 3MOVE, and behind the P-51 which tied in 2nd place with the iQube (haven't heard that one myself). I think the D4 with OPA1611 C-A topkit is very close to the P-51 which I like more than the Predator or Pico, as does Skylab. I think the D4's USB DAC is slightly better than the D10 via USB, and on a similar level to the Pico DAC-only or uDAC, but the D10 USB DAC is not far behind at all. Some people may not hear the differences if they don't have IEM like JH13Pro and ES3X to hear them.

 But the 8-10 hours of battery life bugs me - even though I would not listen that long at one sitting, and I could pop in another battery if it dies on me. I'm the kind of person that would forget to shut off the amp, and go to use it only to discover the battery is dead. For this reason, I mostly use the D4 with my laptop in 5v mode, and it has replaced my D10 in that duty. But, I don't take the D4 out with me to use portable with iPod - I am using the smaller T3 or P-51 for that until I get my Pico Slim.

 So...

 If I wanted a really small amp for portable iPod use, with 50-60 hour battery life, a very high quality USB DAC for computer listening, the best sound, and price no object - then I would either pick the P-51, Shadow or Pico Slim combined with a Pico DAC-only or Nuforce uDAC. That way I could leave the DAC behind with the computer and have a smaller amp for the iPod when portable (or carry the DAC with the laptop if mobile).

 If I was mostly going to use it with a laptop in 5v mode, occasionally use it with an iPod, didn't care about size or battery life, or worried about price - then I would get the D4 with topkit. The sound comes very close to the Pico DAC-only feeding the P-51, but in a larger package and MUCH smaller price.

 If you already have a 2MOVE and D10, that is a good combo to have - you can do a topkit in the D10 to bring it closer to the stock D4 (not far from the P-51 but some high end extension missing in the D10 with topkit). Or you can use the stock opamps to leave it similar to the Predator, or feed the D10 DAC into the 2MOVE for when you want the warmer more forward sound and extra power over the D10. The 2MOVE with a better DAC is a formidable combo. And, while the size isn't tiny with either of these you have better battery life. 

 I definitely like the sound of the D4 with topkit over the D10 with any opamps, but that doesn't all of a sudden make the D10 a bad amp that you must upgrade. You have to weigh the pluses and minuses and decide what features you need most. The D4 can drive an HD600 better because of 9v mode, but the battery life is 3x shorter. The USB DAC in the D10 is almost as good as the one on the D4, but it adds the ability to listen to optical 24/96 via computer or vintage portable CD player/iRiver. The D4 with topkit comes closer to the P-51 benchmark than the D10 with topkit. The D4 can run off 5v USB 24/7 unattended without having to worry about overcharging the battery, while the D10 charge switch should be turned off occasionally. Etc, etc...


----------



## as1klh0

ibasso d10 use PCM2906 to converts USB into a S/PDIF signal


----------



## morning1985

Hi Headphone addict

 I'm currently using a RME digiface for optical out, to a Headroom Micro Dac, I wonder if the line out SQ of D10 is better than MicroDac

 thanks


----------



## qusp

Larry, the uDAC does not use the sabre ESS9018, it uses the MUCH cheaper (but still quite respectable) ESS9022, which has internal I/V (which cannot be bypassed AFAIK; _<could be mistaken on that part, not 100% certain), only 2 channel output and inferior jitter rejection. I have seen this misinformation posted around the forum quite a bit lately. just the ESS9018 part alone costs nearly the same as the entire uDAC does. I know the 9018 part is kinda stuck in the memory around here due to its amazing sound, so thats probably whats going on, but I have seen several people going around thinking they are getting a little B32 for 90 bucks and that simply isnt the case.

 great for a little USB convertor though


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *morning1985* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi Headphone addict

 I'm currently using a RME digiface for optical out, to a Headroom Micro Dac, I wonder if the line out SQ of D10 is better than MicroDac

 thanks_

 

I think it is pretty close, and you have the option of using the headphone out as a preamp or the line out, so you can tune the output to sound the way you like it if you use the headphone out. I did think the older iBasso D1 line out was not quite as good as the Micro DAC - no matter what opamp I used in the D1's DAC circuit the the Micro DAC sounded a bit fuller and more complete. But the D1 headphone out with AD797 or AD743 opamps could compete with the Micro DAC's sound quality. When I got the D10 I was pleased that the line out was also better than I recall the older D1 line out being.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *qusp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Larry, the uDAC does not use the sabre ESS9018, it uses the MUCH cheaper (but still quite respectable) ESS9022, which has internal I/V (which cannot be bypassed AFAIK; _<could be mistaken on that part, not 100% certain), only 2 channel output and inferior jitter rejection. I have seen this misinformation posted around the forum quite a bit lately. just the ESS9018 part alone costs nearly the same as the entire uDAC does. I know the 9018 part is kinda stuck in the memory around here due to its amazing sound, so thats probably whats going on, but I have seen several people going around thinking they are getting a little B32 for 90 bucks and that simply isnt the case.

 great for a little USB convertor though_

 

Sorry, that was a typo - I don't think I have made that mistake before. I was just thinking that the lower number was the lower model since I hadn't typed it out in a few days and couldn't recall.

 I still think the ESS Sabre 9022 competes well with the Wolfson WM8740 DAC (or is that the WM8741, I forget that one too today).


----------



## qusp

no need to apologize man, i've seen it around a bit (not saying you are responsible for it) and I can see how it would be easy to do, but I think its best its corrected where possible as there is so much hype about the sabre chips (deservedly so too IMO). 

 i'm also building an ackodac sabredac, which can use either the 9018 (8 channel), 9012 (2 channel version of exactly the same chip, but with the 8 parallel dacs combined down to 2 inside) or i'm thinking 9016 as well (i've ordered the 2 x 2 channel 9012 as I dont need multichannel output, but dual mono), all of these are above the 9022 in the hierarchy, which is ODD I agree. I would think its a superior dac to the wolfston chip as well; certainly a much more modern design, but you are stuck with the onboard output stage (actually just realized the wm874X does I/V internally too), which in this case being portable isnt much of a limitation as there isnt much extra room or voltage to extend the capabilities. the D10 and pico is the 8740 and the gamma1/2 and opus are 8741 I think; not much difference between the 2; I think at least in the gamma1/2 they are interchangeable


----------



## Agent_Moler

Thanks for the comparison Larry. It sounds like you like the D4 a lot, and from your impressions, it seems to me like the better bet than the p-51 (especially since it doesnt have a usb dac). I'm wondering, have you heard the Lisa 3? How do you feel that the D4 stacks up against the lisa?


----------



## RockinCannoisseur

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_With the 300 ohm HD600 there is a big difference in power between the 5v and 9v option. Voltage swing is more important with these high impedance phones current, while good current output is what the low impedance phones need. 

 At 5v the D4 plays the HD600 about as loud as a Predator or D10 which is moderately loud level but not really loud like the 3MOVE or V1. But at 9v the D4 really kicks it into gear and the HD600 seem 3-5 dB louder, plus it gives the HD600 stronger bass impact. I'll have more power comparisons in my upcoming review but in 9v mode the D4 drives the HD600 better than my P-51, Predator or D10 - the power is right behind that of the 3MOVE and V1, but it's enough for mobile situations when you can't get to a desktop amp.

 Also, for the peeps asking about Livewires with D4 - it's a great match. Same with ESW10JPN._

 

i plan on esting the d4 against my predator, so this was very helpful.

 whats a better dac/ amp than d4 and predator, the only ones i can think next on list would be iqube with dac or the pico, i wanted to stay close to the size of predator, so i am hoping the d4 or iqube is not a whole lot bigger ( like d10 which i would have already bought had it looked smaller, maybe it is i have trouble picturing actual size)


----------



## kunalraiker

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *RockinCannoisseur* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i plan on esting the d4 against my predator, so this was very helpful.

 whats a better dac/ amp than d4 and predator, the only ones i can think next on list would be iqube with dac or the pico, i wanted to stay close to the size of predator, so i am hoping the d4 or iqube is not a whole lot bigger ( like d10 which i would have already bought had it looked smaller, maybe it is i have trouble picturing actual size)_

 

The D4 is about the size of D10,it is big.


----------



## Trapper32

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kunalraiker* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The D4 is about the size of D10,it is big._

 


 Are you sure of that? My D4 is smaller width and length wise than my iPod Classic. It is prolly twice as thick. I haven't seen a D10 in person but I thot it was larger than the D4 which I don't think is big. Of course everything is relative.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Trapper32* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Are you sure of that? My D4 is smaller width and length wise than my iPod Classic. It is prolly twice as thick. I haven't seen a D10 in person but I thot it was larger than the D4 which I don't think is big. Of course everything is relative. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

The D4 is about 1/2" shorter than my D10, otherwise height and width are the same.


----------



## Trapper32

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The D4 is about 1/2" shorter than my D10, otherwise height and width are the same._

 

Thanks 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It looks alot longer in pics ..


----------



## RockinCannoisseur

*So, in summary* - the D4 with modified topkit (new opamps, stock buffers) is actually closest to the P-51 Mustang when feeding the D4 line-out into the P-51 with an 18G Jumbo Cryo Silver X mini-mini. I can go back and forth between the D4's built-in DAC and Amp and the D4's DAC feeding the P-51 and I am quite happy with both, finding them to sound very similar. I am leaving the D4 set up this way as a "P-51 clone" for the time being. I have to run through a plethora of headphones and IEM again, with the new topkit installed.[/QUOTE]

 would the predator fit close to this assessment, also would thd4 stock better the predator? i was going to choose the d4 over the pico,, and does the d4 stock have only ten hours! or is that with the topkit only thanks, i do hope d4 has more than ten hours vs my predator which seems endless, but then again i think you can change batteries on d4 no? so some might actually prefer that,, 9volts right


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *RockinCannoisseur* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*So, in summary* - the D4 with modified topkit (new opamps, stock buffers) is actually closest to the P-51 Mustang when feeding the D4 line-out into the P-51 with an 18G Jumbo Cryo Silver X mini-mini. I can go back and forth between the D4's built-in DAC and Amp and the D4's DAC feeding the P-51 and I am quite happy with both, finding them to sound very similar. I am leaving the D4 set up this way as a "P-51 clone" for the time being. I have to run through a plethora of headphones and IEM again, with the new topkit installed.

 would the predator fit close to this assessment, also would thd4 stock better the predator? i was going to choose the d4 over the pico,, and does the d4 stock have only ten hours! or is that with the topkit only thanks, i do hope d4 has more than ten hours vs my predator which seems endless, but then again i think you can change batteries on d4 no? so some might actually prefer that,, 9volts right_

 

I have always maintained that the P-51 is a little better than the Predator or Pico as an amp - so I would choose the sound of the D4 with topkit over the Predator as well. Right now my previous top picks, the Predator and D10, are not getting much use since I got the D4 to use with my Macbook Pro around the house. I love the fact that I don't have to worry if I forget to turn it off, as I will not overcharge it (D10) or drain the battery (Predator).

 You can swap 9v batteries in the D4, and if you are traveling you don't need a wallwart charger because you can buy batteries at the airport or hotel if needed. The Predator does seem to run forever, but the D4 wont, sorry. I think the D4 is a better option for use with a laptop or PC, but you may want to keep the Predator for use with iPods since it is smaller and runs for 55-60 hours on a single charge. Or, sell the Predator for a smaller cheaper amp without DAC, and get the D4 as well.


----------



## estreeter

Hi Larry,

 Per your request, what is your opinion re. D10-as-DAC vs D4-as-DAC ? No kits etc - just the stock units. I know the D4 is generally regarded as a better amp, but my interest would be in the DAC section. The Topaz has a good DAC, but the insistence on upsampling everything to 192kHz leaves me wondering if its the right choice for metal and harder rock (the majority of my music). 

 Tks,

 estreeter


----------



## estreeter

Dbl post.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *estreeter* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi Larry,

 Per your request, what is your opinion re. D10-as-DAC vs D4-as-DAC ? No kits etc - just the stock units. I know the D4 is generally regarded as a better amp, but my interest would be in the DAC section. The Topaz has a good DAC, but the insistence on upsampling everything to 192kHz leaves me wondering if its the right choice for metal and harder rock (the majority of my music). 

 Tks,

 estreeter_

 

The D4 USB DAC is closer to the Pico USB DAC, and slightly better than the D10 DAC via USB, although the D10 matches the Pico and D4 when I use optical with the same 16/44 files. It may have something to do with the D10 taking S/PDIF from the USB receiver chip while the Pico and D4 take I2S to feed the Wolfson DAC(s). Here I am comparing the Pico DAC only because Blutarsky has my Pico DAC/amp now.

 It's often hard to compare the D4 and D10 as a DAC line-out to Pico DAC, because their output volumes are much lower than the Pico, so I have to change the volume on the receiving amp to match levels. Initially switching from either iBasso DAC to the Pico DAC sounds fuller and more refined, but I think it is mostly due to the increased volume. If I get the right amp where I can switch from high gain with iBasso as source to low gain with Pico, then the volumes will be fairly well matched and the differences become very small. But even when comparing the two iBasso DAC's with their similar output levels, the differences are quite small. One exception is that the D10 sounds very slightly better when it is in low gain than in high gain, being very slightly more spacious and better channel balance by 1-2dB than when in high gain (which is almost never needed). This may be from that previously reported 47K resistor channel mismatch in early D10 models, I don't know but another user had confirmed my findings when he reported it. 

 When I use 24/96 native files with the D10 optical, as before when compared to the Pico the D10 is slightly ahead of the D4. But, the differences in all of these DACs is very small. If you did not have optical, then I would say the D4 DAC comes extremely close to the Pico DAC only, for a much smaller price if you can live with the lower output levels. With Woo GES the Pico was better because it was a low gain amp and it needed the higher output Pico to drive the Stax O2 better. I'm still looking into whether the ALO Amphora drives my 300-600 ohm cans better with the higher output levels of the Pico and uDAC.

 I plan to incorporate this and my opamp rolling post into the main part of my D4 review to add to post #1 or #2 soon. So, 80-90% of my D4 impressions have been posted now, including my #1 rank as a combined DAC/amp. But, I would be quite happy with any of the top 5 or 6 amps here as my only one (i.e. D4, D10, Pico, Predator, 3MOVE, XM5).


----------



## estreeter

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I plan to incorporate this and my opamp rolling post into the main part of my D4 review to add to post #1 or #2 soon. So, 80-90% of my D4 impressions have been posted now, including my #1 rank as a combined DAC/amp. But, I would be quite happy with any of the top 5 or 6 amps here as my only one (i.e. D4, D10, Pico, Predator, 3MOVE, XM5)._

 

Thank you so much for that, Larry. I've focussed on your last sentence and highlighted your choices as I often come back to this thread looking for your 'Top 10':

*D4, D10, Pico, Predator, 3MOVE, XM5*


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *estreeter* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thank you so much for that, Larry. I've focussed on your last sentence and highlighted your choices as I often come back to this thread looking for your 'Top 10':

*D4, D10, Pico, Predator, 3MOVE, XM5*_

 

And the only reason I put Pico ahead of Predator was to keep the three hi-res similar DACs together and the three lower resolution but very similar DACs together. Very often the Predator and 3MOVE will rank ahead of the Pico with some phones or music, because I slightly like the tone of their amps better, but like the ultra high resolution of the Pico's DAC more. There was a time when I was feeding the Pico's headphone out into the Predator or 3MOVE, before the D10 was out.


----------



## estreeter

Larry, I've gone back to page one but the last update seems to be from 2009 - where do you rank the uDAC in this lot ? I know its not a powerhouse like the 3Move, but interested to see where it slots in sonically after your uDAC thread. 

 Tks,

 estreeter


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *estreeter* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Larry, I've gone back to page one but the last update seems to be from 2009 - where do you rank the uDAC in this lot ? I know its not a powerhouse like the 3Move, but interested to see where it slots in sonically after your uDAC thread. 

 Tks,

 estreeter_

 

I put the uDAC in it's own thread, like I did the StyleAudio CARAT-TOPAZ, because I think these fit a different category by being _portable_. The title of this thread is so long with all the various DAC/amp names that I can't fit portable in it. Links to other reviews are in my public profile "about me".

 As for comparison, I did compare the uDAC to the D4 in my other review, and discussed the sound differences further as questions came up in the thread. You could put together my impressions by looking how the D4 compares to D10 (not too long ago in this thread), and then how the D10 compares to 3MOVE at the beginning of this thread. That connects the 3MOVE to uDAC indirectly. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 But, in a nutshell the 3MOVE DAC is not on the same higher level of the uDAC's DAC, but the amp sections are not too far apart, having a strong bass, and being warm and slightly forward. The 3MOVE has just a little more treble sparkle and is a little less laid back than the uDAC, and is a bit more powerful when using a 9v battery. I don't recall what I said about 3MOVE's power output when not using a battery, as it does have a 5v mode. If I tested it I would have put it somewhere in this review thread.

 My most used DAC/amp with Macbook right now is my D4, followed by the uDAC because both cover different kinds of sound signatures for when I want something different. Third most often used is Pico DAC only into ALO Amphora, and I run a 6 foot USB cable under my chair to the table next to the chair where they sit. 

 I haven't been using the D10, Predator, 3MOVE, XM5 or V1 much lately, but not because they don't sound good, but because I have too many to chose from. Before the D4 and uDAC were my most used DAC/amps I was using the D10 and the 3MOVE most often for their opposing sound signatures. And before that it was the Predator and Pico depending on whether I wanted my favorite DAC or my favorite amp. For portable I have been using the P-51 and T3 for their smaller size and good battery life.


----------



## estreeter

Thanks Larry - I cant even comprehend how you keep track of all the kit you have. I lost the T3 for 2 weeks - its just *too* small IMO - only to find it buried in my couch ... 

 I take your point about amps that need a wall-wart not being genuinely 'portable', regardless of form factor - apologies for muddying the waters.


----------



## gameboy115

For sake of other peoples, I have to bump it up to top of page. I used up 10 mins to look up the forum page by page, so I could find this thread which I visited before.
   
  I found it extremely to find a thread which sunk but still very useful like this one. I hate new interface causes all of troubles.
   
  Without a good searching system, and lack of ability to view by order of how many peoples reply the thread, it blows


----------



## Zack916

This has probably already been answered in one way or another (or ten) but for the life of me I couldn't find it.  Which of these do you think pairs the best with Grado RS1s?


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote: 





zack916 said:


> This has probably already been answered in one way or another (or ten) but for the life of me I couldn't find it.  Which of these do you think pairs the best with Grado RS1s?


 

 Going from memory the first ones I heard that I really liked with the RS-1 in my early part of the review were the Predator and 3MOVE with the RS-1.  But later I thought the D10 and XM5 were also good choice (stock or upgraded opamps), and then when I got the opamp rolled D4 it became my favorite with RS-1 just ahead of the opamp rolled D10.  But that didn't make the Predator or 3MOVE or XM5 sound worse with the RS-1 and they are still a good choice if you don't mind slightly less detail from the DAC.  I think the stock D4 was like a cross between the Pico and Predator, and it should be good with them but I can't remember.  The original Pico I thought needed more warmth with the RS-1, or I had to use flat pads only with the RS-1 if using the Pico.


----------



## Zack916

I think based on price and reviews, the opamp rolled D4 it is!  Thanks alot, your gigantic portable review thread was the basis for researching all of this stuff, and it was INCREDIBLY helpful.


----------



## Zack916

And the D4 sounds the best only using the 5v USB rather than the USB and 9v?


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote: 





zack916 said:


> I think based on price and reviews, the opamp rolled D4 it is!  Thanks alot, your gigantic portable review thread was the basis for researching all of this stuff, and it was INCREDIBLY helpful.


 
   
  Cool.
   
  Quote: 





zack916 said:


> And the D4 sounds the best only using the 5v USB rather than the USB and 9v?


 

 Where did you hear that?  
   
  9v will give it more power but doesn't affect the sound signature much.  9v helps most with high impedance cans, but also still helps with current delivery in low impedance cans, especially inefficient ones like the HE-5/HE-5 LE.  So, you could still notice improved power and impact with the RS-1 at 9v, but you'll want to pick up some 500 mah lithium rechargeable 9v if you want to use that a lot.  I found 2 lithium 9v with charger on eBay for $35.  I sold the RS-1 over Xmas, so all my comparisons with those was before that.


----------



## koonhua90

Any chance of the Arrow amp being reviewed? The 2nd generation Arrow amp is coming out in a week or two according to the website.


----------



## Zack916

Oh I didn't hear it anywhere, I just wasn't sure if the 9v battery made a difference with low impedance cans like the RS1s


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote: 





koonhua90 said:


> Any chance of the Arrow amp being reviewed? The 2nd generation Arrow amp is coming out in a week or two according to the website.


 

 If it's a DAC + amp and they want to offer me a sample to review I would consider it.


----------



## brendon

^^ Nope ! The Headfonia Arrow is a pure amp. No DAC.


----------



## Armaegis

The upcoming "DAC Stick" from headphonia is a dac/amp though.


----------



## brendon

^^ Nope. Its a pure DAC and not a DAC + portable amp like the others in this section.


----------



## Armaegis

Whoops, you're right. It's not portable, although it does have an amped headphone out.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote: 





brendon said:


> ^^ Nope. Its a pure DAC and not a DAC + portable amp like the others in this section.


 

 Yeah, when I reviewed things like the DACport, Nuforce HDP, Nuforce uDAC or StyleAudio TOPAZ I did them in their own thread.


----------



## roker

I got a Nuforce Icon Mobile from a friend in a trade and I have to say it's been working out great!
   
  I'm using it for my Dreamcast, Xbox 360, and television watching and it sounds better than I was expecting.  I can hear more detail and a nice tight bassline, things I was missing out on before (though my TVs paltry hp amp).  It performs these "secondary" tasks better than my LDI+ (which still sounds better for music).  I'd highly recommend it for that use, but I thought it was merely "ok" when I used it from my iPod.  My opinion on using it to listen to music is still up in the air, but I will say that if you use it as a DAC/Amp through your computer, it'll fare better.  In fact, I think it performs better with my D2000s than my uDac did.  I think this is mainly because the amp section is better on this (IMO).
   
  I did all this testing with my D2000s, so your results may vary.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote: 





roker said:


> I got a Nuforce Icon Mobile from a friend in a trade and I have to say it's been working out great!
> 
> I'm using it for my Dreamcast, Xbox 360, and television watching and it sounds better than I was expecting.  I can hear more detail and a nice tight bassline, things I was missing out on before (though my TVs paltry hp amp).  It performs these "secondary" tasks better than my LDI+ (which still sounds better for music).  I'd highly recommend it for that use, but I thought it was merely "ok" when I used it from my iPod.  My opinion on using it to listen to music is still up in the air, but I will say that if you use it as a DAC/Amp through your computer, it'll fare better.  In fact, I think it performs better with my D2000s than my uDac did.  I think this is mainly because the amp section is better on this (IMO).
> 
> I did all this testing with my D2000s, so your results may vary.


 

 That's what I've been saying, the Icon Mobile is better via the DAC as source than an iPod.  And I agree it mates well with the D2000 (in a similar fashion that it mates well with IE8).
   
  You may not believe this, but the uDAC uses almost the exact same headphone amp section as the Icon Mobile.  But it sounds a little more forward and brighter in the Icon Mobile, maybe due to the analog input section and DAC section being different.


----------



## roker

Quote: 





headphoneaddict said:


> That's what I've been saying, the Icon Mobile is better via the DAC as source than an iPod.  And I agree it mates well with the D2000 (in a similar fashion that it mates well with IE8).
> 
> You may not believe this, but the uDAC uses almost the exact same headphone amp section as the Icon Mobile.  But it sounds a little more forward and brighter in the Icon Mobile, maybe due to the analog input section and DAC section being different.


 
   
  I just felt there wasn't as much bass with the uDac and it was a bit too bright and forward for my taste.  The Mobile seems to be more bassy without the overpowering highs.  The uDac may fare well for other headphones, but I felt the D2000s are better suited for the Mobile.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote: 





roker said:


> I just felt there wasn't as much bass with the uDac and it was a bit too bright and forward for my taste.  The Mobile seems to be more bassy without the overpowering highs.  The uDac may fare well for other headphones, but I felt the D2000s are better suited for the Mobile.


 

 Interesting.  I did feel the Icon Mobile is a great match for the D2000, but I was thinking with an iPod it's a little brighter (not so much via USB).  I don't have a D2000 anymore for testing with the uDAC.


----------



## estreeter

Interesting times, Larry, with the slew of amps that have been released since Rob and yourself first set out on your individual threads. Interesting to see how well Jan's amps have done over time on both lists, as have several of Ray's amps.


----------



## rasmushorn

Hi HeadphoneAddict - have you heard the iQube V2? If so - where would you place it on your list?
  (Sorry if this has been asked before in this thread!?)


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

No, I haven't heard it sorry.


----------



## Mdraluck23

Subscribed and reading! What do you suggest for an HD600, under or around $200? Portability is a huge plus! I know that's asking a lot.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote: 





mdraluck23 said:


> Subscribed and reading! What do you suggest for an HD600, under or around $200? Portability is a huge plus! I know that's asking a lot.


 

 The Vividaudiotech.com V1 works really well with the HD600 in your price range, if they haven't made any changes since I reviewed it.  The power output into 300 ohm was surprising, and yet it also had great current reserves for low impedance D2000 and Ediiton 9.  The V1 does have some colorations that make it not the best choice for Grados, but it's fine with many other headphones.
   
  A 3MOVE will do a better job and work with a wider variety of headphones, but it's 2.5x more cost new.  Buying used should put a 3MOVE in your price range, and that would be my first choice for HD600 under $200.  
   
  The iBasso D4 has better detail, ambience and space; but the power in 9v mode is still not as high, although more powerful than most 5v amps when used in 9v mode.  Most of it's gains are from the better DAC, while the amp is also very good up to it's power limits.  With my upgraded OPA1611 opamps it's one of my favorite sounding portable amps.  But it just doesn't have ear rattling power levels with HD600 like the other two.
   
  I can't recall exactly how the Pico does with HD600 vs the D1, but my best recollection is they were similar in power levels with HD600, as was the XM5.  The XM5 (AD8065/BUF634) is my favorite with LCD-2, but like the others not with the HD600.


----------



## Mdraluck23

Thanks for the reply! I'm thinking about upping the budget a bit, putting the 3move into my range. Where can I buy it?! Also considering a D10....


----------



## cooperpwc

Quote: 





mdraluck23 said:


> Thanks for the reply! I'm thinking about upping the budget a bit, putting the 3move into my range. Where can I buy it?! Also considering a D10....


 

 The 3Move is discontinued, supplanted by the Stepdance which is quite a diiferent animal (no DAC or crossfeed but some other nifty features and even better SQ). So you can only gei it used. Warch the Amp FS forum on here. The 3Move is a good amp.


----------



## Mdraluck23

Ah, I just read that in my thread I had started. So I'm down to the iBasso D10/6/12? I would like to add some treble or high end sparkle. I've read that the D6 is probably best for that...


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote: 





mdraluck23 said:


> Ah, I just read that in my thread I had started. So I'm down to the iBasso D10/6/12? I would like to add some treble or high end sparkle. I've read that the D6 is probably best for that...


 

 I haven't heard the D6/12.  I do know my D4 has more treble sparkle than my D10 (regardless if either one is stock or upgraded opamps), and with 9v battery the D4 drives the HD600 better than the D10 as well (D10 operates off 5v power, so less voltage swing for high impedance phones).  
   
  However, for HD600 I might actually like the V1 driving the phones more, but I would feed it with a uDAC-2 line-out for the DAC (this combo is still in your budget). When you didn't need a lot of power you could even use the uDAC-2 headphone jack and not bother with the V1 amp, but the V1 colorations do favor the HD600 and are slightly less pronounced when skipping the built-in DAC.
   
  Or, stick with the plan to find a used 3MOVE.  There is the option hinted at above, being the new Meier Stepdance and pairing it with another DAC like the uDAC-2, but it pushes your budget too far ($400 combo).  Stepdance is more powerful than 3MOVE, and a little more spacious sounding, but like cooperpwc says above, no DAC built-in.  And the Stepdance has about 8-10 hour battery life vs 40-80 with the 3MOVE.
   
  And we haven't even talked the $450 or $600 RSA balanced portable amps that would require a new headphone cable plus a uDAC-2, but they have loads of power for the HD600 in balanced mode.


----------



## Mdraluck23

When I get a desktop amp, I'll certainly go balanced....
   
  I'm considering the D6 as my top choice, I've read that it's not much different than the D4, except for the rechargable battery, which is a huge plus for me.
   
  Can the D6 function as a line out?


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote: 





mdraluck23 said:


> When I get a desktop amp, I'll certainly go balanced....
> 
> I'm considering the D6 as my top choice, I've read that it's not much different than the D4, except for the rechargable battery, which is a huge plus for me.
> 
> Can the D6 function as a line out?


 

 Yes, the D6 AUX IN functions as a LINE OUT when using USB as the input, same as with the other iBasso DAC amps made in the last year or two.  The D2 Boa and Viper didn't have line out as I recall.
   
  At some point I'll take a listen to the D6 and XM6 as soon as I can; but I'm trying to watch my money right now.


----------



## Mdraluck23

So I've settled on the D6 then It's pretty future-proof, and it'll do it's job pretty well in the meantime.


----------



## estreeter

Future-proof ? I guess if you consider an amp with line-out capability future-proof, then so be it 
   
  FWIW, I think you are making a good decision in that *you are making a decision*. iBasso seems to be hellbent on releasing a new amp every second month or third month, and here we are fast approaching the end of Q1, 2011  ...... trying to crystal ball their new product is a guaranteed path to indecision, IMO.


----------



## Mdraluck23

Having a good DAC even after I upgrade my amp is pretty future "wise" IMO... I'm just curious a little bit about the Vivid V1. Seems much cheaper. So much for settling on one...


----------



## MalVeauX

Hello all,
   
  This review is fantastically good for someone who is new to amps in general. So much info, that now I can't decide what I should be looking at even, hah. I have had my pair of *Sennheiser HD580's* for about a decade now and love them. I'm only recently starting to go portable with them. I've always had sound cards that powered them at home. Never had an external DAC/AMP. Weird perhaps, but it is what it is. So I have a Droid Incredible that I like being able to stream music from and it supports FLAC output too. It cannot drive my HD580's though, the volume is a whisper. It can only barely get some in-ear buds to decent levels of volume for when you want to just hear high volume music. I'd love to be able to tote my HD580's around with it and listen to my FLACs and even Pandora (upgraded to pandora one for higher quality, even then, it's only 192kbps, but I love the service).
   
  Here's my issue though. I don't know if I can use my Droid Incredible's headphone jack connected to an AMP and then to my HD580's and get good sound. It seems most AMPs are being plugged into a Line-Out of sorts.
   
  That said, could someone recommend what I can do here?
   
  1. Can I plug an AMP into my Droid's headphone out and still get good sound (I have no way to test this as I don't have any amps)?
  2. Assuming the above can be done, which amp would be best for my HD580's? The Viper? V1? Anyone with a pair of HD580's that has experience?
   
  Thanks!
   
  Very best,


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote: 





malveaux said:


> Hello all,
> 
> This review is fantastically good for someone who is new to amps in general. So much info, that now I can't decide what I should be looking at even, hah. I have had my pair of *Sennheiser HD580's* for about a decade now and love them. I'm only recently starting to go portable with them. I've always had sound cards that powered them at home. Never had an external DAC/AMP. Weird perhaps, but it is what it is. So I have a Droid Incredible that I like being able to stream music from and it supports FLAC output too. It cannot drive my HD580's though, the volume is a whisper. It can only barely get some in-ear buds to decent levels of volume for when you want to just hear high volume music. I'd love to be able to tote my HD580's around with it and listen to my FLACs and even Pandora (upgraded to pandora one for higher quality, even then, it's only 192kbps, but I love the service).
> 
> ...


 

 Some headphone jacks will sound better driving the high impedance amplifier input than a headphone, but I don't have enough experience to say how your Droid will sound.  I do not believe it will sound worse, and you'd certainly get more power from an external amp.  
   
  For HD600 (similar to HD580) my favorite portables in this review were the Meier 3MOVE and then the Vivid V1 for their great power with 300 ohm HD600.  The Pico, XM5 and iBasso D4 had just a little less volume levels, but the sound quality is a step up from the V1 if you don't listen loud.  The RSA Protector and SR-71b in balanced mode would be my new 1st choices for HD600, but they don't have DACs.  The Meier Stepdance also has plenty of power for HD600, but no DAC.  Vivid V1 is the best bang for the buck to drive HD600 with authority.


----------



## estreeter

Larry, is it fair to say that you rate the Topkitted D4 alongside the Mustang for sound quality ? I believe you have posted to that effect, but I dont want to quote you out of context.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote: 





estreeter said:


> Larry, is it fair to say that you rate the Topkitted D4 alongside the Mustang for sound quality ? I believe you have posted to that effect, but I dont want to quote you out of context.


 

 The D4 with HiFlight's OPA1611 topkit and stock buffers sounds pretty much exactly like my old RSA P-51 Mustang.  With the D4 I get the same sound plus a nice DAC, and more power, although at the expense of larger size and less battery life.  The D10 with topkit sounds close but it's not quite as open and extended in the highs (I think that has the TLE2142 and EL8201 buffers, but it's been so long I'm not 100% sure).


----------



## estreeter

OK - thanks. I will reinstall the stock buffers tonite. I tend to mix and match, largely for the hell of it.


----------



## MalVeauX

Quote: 





headphoneaddict said:


> Some headphone jacks will sound better driving the high impedance amplifier input than a headphone, but I don't have enough experience to say how your Droid will sound.  I do not believe it will sound worse, and you'd certainly get more power from an external amp.
> 
> For HD600 (similar to HD580) my favorite portables in this review were the Meier 3MOVE and then the Vivid V1 for their great power with 300 ohm HD600.  The Pico, XM5 and iBasso D4 had just a little less volume levels, but the sound quality is a step up from the V1 if you don't listen loud.  The RSA Protector and SR-71b in balanced mode would be my new 1st choices for HD600, but they don't have DACs.  The Meier Stepdance also has plenty of power for HD600, but no DAC.  Vivid V1 is the best bang for the buck to drive HD600 with authority.


 

 Heya,
   
  Thanks so much for that. That's what I was looking for, someone who has the 580's or at least something very close to it (600's). Sounds like the V1 is what I need. Appreciate you taking the time to really review this stuff for those of us who don't have access to so many options!
   
  Very best,


----------



## musedesign

Headphone Addict,
    Thank you for the fantastic reviews!  I had already ordered a D10 when I found your review.  I had been thinking that the D10 was preferable to the D4, because of the optical out, but you seem to prefer the D4 SQ with HiFlight's OPA1611 or the Vivid V1 (seems like a great deal at $99).
   
  My current setup:
  MacBook Pro >Pandora>Optical>D10 (on order)>DT770 32 ohm or HD650
   
  Interested in your recommendations, keep the D10 and upgrade with a topkit? or return for the D4? or order the V1
   
  How does the uDAC-2 compare?
   
  Thank you!
   
  -Mark


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote: 





musedesign said:


> Headphone Addict,
> Thank you for the fantastic reviews!  I had already ordered a D10 when I found your review.  I had been thinking that the D10 was preferable to the D4, because of the optical out, but you seem to prefer the D4 SQ with HiFlight's OPA1611 or the Vivid V1 (seems like a great deal at $99).
> 
> My current setup:
> ...


 
   
  I don't know about the DT770, but for the HD650 you might want more power than the D10 offers.  I've owned the HD650 a couple of times, although I settled on the HD600 for a slightly more balanced approach to the music.  The D10 has just enough to drive the HD600 to moderate volumes, but not enough to blast them loud and feel them.  If you need optical and a great DAC then there aren't a lot of other portable choices (Headroom has a nice portable optical DAC/amp but I haven't heard it), but the Nuforce HDP is a good choice for the Senns if you don't might plugging into the wall power.
   
  The D4 has more power for the HD600/650 when you engage the 9v battery, and it's a little more transparent and open sounding, but that doesn't make the D10 a bad DAC/amp.  It's just the D4 is a little better.  Still, if I had to pick one of the two iBasso amps for my Macbook I'd pick the D4 to drive the HD650 (if it had to be portable, even if stock opamps).
   
  The Vivid V1 is a lot of fun with the HD600, less so with other headphones if they have borderline bothersome treble; and because the DAC is not as detailed and spacious as the iBasso DACs I tend to classify the V1 more as a "fun" sounding DAC/amp than a "reference" one like the iBasso amps.  But you could pair the V1 with a nicer sounding DAC like the SuperPro DAC707 for optical or the uDAC-2 for USB, and have good detail and ambience with a very powerful amp - that is a good option too.  I don't know why the V1 has so much power with HD600 when it's charged by 5v like the D10.  Usually the HD600/650 need higher voltage swing and a 9v or 12v amp does a better job.
   
  The uDAC-2 would be similar to a D10 in power, but without the optical or battery option, and maybe with a little worse low volume channel imbalance.  The uDAC-2 line-out sounds a little better than it's headphone amp, and although the amp is still very enjoyable the RCA outputs are even more impressive.  Listening to it's headphone amp might sound most like a Pico DAC-only feeding an iBasso T3.  It's enough to enjoy my HD600 but not enough to really draw out the most performance from them.  
   
  Few portable amps really do justice to the HD600/650 - among the high-end portable amps that do the best with them are the balanced SR-71b, balanced Protector, Stepdance, and 3MOVE in that order; followed by the Pico, XM5 and D4 which are slightly less powerful even with 9v power like the Meier amps.  I'd say all of those are top tier portable amps in terms of transparency and refinement.  The V1 has a few flaws with other headphones putting them in the second tier, but when paired with the HD600/650 those flaws seem to fade away and not get noticed very much.  Like I said, it's a fun amp to pair with the HD600, and HD650 should be even better with this particular amp since it will fill in the missing highs I missed with the HD650.


----------



## rroseperry

This is a great review. HPA, do you think the D10 is the best (or better) choice for a portable amp with optical out? I'm thinking of using it with my H140.

Thank you!


----------



## estreeter

Larry, did you ever get a chance to hear the P4 or the D6 when they were released earlier this year ? I didnt have any hard-to-drive cans when I got my P4, but it had effortless power into anything you can see in my sig - I rarely got beyond 9am on the dial !


----------



## musedesign

Quote:


headphoneaddict said:


> I don't know about the DT770, but for the HD650 you might want more power than the D10 offers.  I've owned the HD650 a couple of times, although I settled on the HD600 for a slightly more balanced approach to the music.  The D10 has just enough to drive the HD600 to moderate volumes, but not enough to blast them loud and feel them.  If you need optical and a great DAC then there aren't a lot of other portable choices (Headroom has a nice portable optical DAC/amp but I haven't heard it), but the Nuforce HDP is a good choice for the Senns if you don't might plugging into the wall power.
> 
> The D4 has more power for the HD600/650 when you engage the 9v battery, and it's a little more transparent and open sounding, but that doesn't make the D10 a bad DAC/amp.  It's just the D4 is a little better.  Still, if I had to pick one of the two iBasso amps for my Macbook I'd pick the D4 to drive the HD650 (if it had to be portable, even if stock opamps).
> 
> ...


 
  Headphone Addict,
    Thank you !  Thank you!  I just read your reply, it will take me a couple more reads to digest.  
   
  You are the best
   
  -Mark


----------



## musedesign

Quote:


headphoneaddict said:


> I don't know about the DT770, but for the HD650 you might want more power than the D10 offers.  I've owned the HD650 a couple of times, although I settled on the HD600 for a slightly more balanced approach to the music.  The D10 has just enough to drive the HD600 to moderate volumes, but not enough to blast them loud and feel them.  If you need optical and a great DAC then there aren't a lot of other portable choices (Headroom has a nice portable optical DAC/amp but I haven't heard it), but the Nuforce HDP is a good choice for the Senns if you don't might plugging into the wall power.
> 
> The D4 has more power for the HD600/650 when you engage the 9v battery, and it's a little more transparent and open sounding, but that doesn't make the D10 a bad DAC/amp.  It's just the D4 is a little better.  Still, if I had to pick one of the two iBasso amps for my Macbook I'd pick the D4 to drive the HD650 (if it had to be portable, even if stock opamps).
> 
> ...


 

 Headphone Addict, can I call you Larry?
    I have been going through your reply.  In your rankings you rank the the D4 #1, once the "D4 opamps are upgraded".  I am unclear if the D4 opamps are soldered in place or replaceable?  They must be replaceable?  I have been corresponding with HiFlight:
   
  " The D4 Topkit is $45 which includes shipping, paypal fees, storage container and step by step instructions... plus the optional L/R opamp available for the D4 that works very well with the included bypass buffers.  It adds an additional $15 to the price."  Total price $60
   
  Is this the same kit you are referring to above?
   
  Thank you!
   
  -Mark


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote: 





rroseperry said:


> This is a great review. HPA, do you think the D10 is the best (or better) choice for a portable amp with optical out? I'm thinking of using it with my H140.
> 
> Thank you!


 

 The D10 is certainly better than the portable D1 that preceded it.  I haven't heard the newer D12 that replaced the D10, nor have I heard the headroom Micro Amp portable with DAC.  So, for portable optical DAC/amp I can only recommend the D10 until hear the other two.
   
  Quote: 





estreeter said:


> Larry, did you ever get a chance to hear the P4 or the D6 when they were released earlier this year ? I didnt have any hard-to-drive cans when I got my P4, but it had effortless power into anything you can see in my sig - I rarely got beyond 9am on the dial !


 

 No, sorry.
   
  Quote: 





musedesign said:


> Quote:
> 
> Headphone Addict, can I call you Larry?
> I have been going through your reply.  In your rankings you rank the the D4 #1, once the "D4 opamps are upgraded".  I am unclear if the D4 opamps are soldered in place or replaceable?  They must be replaceable?  I have been corresponding with HiFlight:
> ...


 

 I have the OPA1611 topkit, and I use the stock buffers.  The D4 has socketed opamps which allows them to be easily replaced.  This basically makes the D4 a sonic clone of the RSA P-51 amp, and the two amps sound identical to me after the upgrade with the D4 having more power when using 9v battery.


----------



## rroseperry

Thank you. The D10 still looks good to me, especially since I doubt I'll be rolling opmaps.

 Looking at your response to musedesign, do you think the D10 has enough power for DT880- 250s?


----------



## musedesign

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> I have the OPA1611 topkit, and I use the stock buffers.  The D4 has socketed opamps which allows them to be easily replaced.  This basically makes the D4 a sonic clone of the RSA P-51 amp, and the two amps sound identical to me after the upgrade with the D4 having more power when using 9v battery.


 

 Headphone Addict,
    Thank you!  I have ordered the iBasso D4, will also order the Topflight kit.  Will get back to you when the arrive, thank you for the help.
   
  -Mark


----------



## musedesign

Quote:


musedesign said:


> Quote:
> 
> Headphone Addict,
> Thank you!  I have ordered the iBasso D4, will also order the Topflight kit.  Will get back to you when the arrive, thank you for the help.
> ...


 
   
  Headphone Addict,
    Thank you your recommendations!  Got the D4 on Friday, lots of fun!  Was about to order the Topflight kit and remembered about the D6.  Have you heard the D6?  How does it compare to the D4?  By the time I upgrade the battery and opamps of the D4, it will be the same price as the D6.
   
  Thanks!  Mark


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

I have not heard the D6 or D12 yet.


----------



## musedesign

Quote:


headphoneaddict said:


> I have not heard the D6 or D12 yet.


 

 Thanks HeadphoneAddict, I went ahead and placed the order for the D6, 
   
  -Mark


----------



## musedesign

Quote:


musedesign said:


> Quote:
> 
> Thanks HeadphoneAddict, I went ahead and placed the order for the D6,
> 
> -Mark


 
   
  Headphone Addict, thank you for your advice!
    
  Last night received the iBasso D6, after several hours of listening prefer the sound quality D4. 


 iBasso D4 - Potentiometer a little "squeaky", makes a mechanical echo noise on turn on, as if something is vibrating inside the case.  Gain and Battery / USB switch throw to long and feel cheap.  Slightly less tall case than D6.  Larger soundstage, more air, blacker background than D6.  Non rechargeable 9V battery

 iBasso D6 - Silver, still deciding if I like the silver, I ordered in black and silver arrived.  Switches more solid feeling than the D4.  Potentiometer quiet on turn on, Gain and Battery / USB switches quiet.  On first listen, D4 sounds more powerful with more air than D6.  Smaller soundstage than D4, more intimate sounding.  More analytic sounding than D4 and a little "brittle" sounding. 

 Tested with Beyer Dynamic DT770 Edition 250 ohm
   
*Headphone addict can you recommend a 9V or 9.6V rechargeable battery for the D4?*  I will order the Topflight kit for the D4.
   
  Thanks!
  -Mark


----------



## estreeter

musedesign, I think you need to give the D6 more time - initially, I wasnt overly impressed with the P4, but it really grew on me. Seriously considering buying a replacement for my ill-fated original P4.


----------



## musedesign

Quote:


estreeter said:


> musedesign, I think you need to give the D6 more time - initially, I wasnt overly impressed with the P4, but it really grew on me. Seriously considering buying a replacement for my ill-fated original P4.


 


  Hi estreeter, Thanks for the message, I am listening to the D4 at the moment and so happy...but will switch to the D6 and give it a little time.  It just seems that the D4 has a larger soundstage and a more "musical" sound quality.
   
  -Mark


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote: 





musedesign said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> Hi estreeter, Thanks for the message, I am listening to the D4 at the moment and so happy...but will switch to the D6 and give it a little time.  It just seems that the D4 has a larger soundstage and a more "musical" sound quality.
> ...


 

 It's very possible the D6 will open up and become more transparent with more hours, but I'm not sure the tonality or musical quality would change.  I still think the D4 with hiflight's OPA1611 topkit (stock buffers) sounds wonderful.  It was good enough that I could sell my RSA P-51 which sounds very similar (but P-51 had less power).  Even with stock opamps the D4 was pretty good, and I preferred it over my original Pico.
   
  I PM'd you a link to a battery auction.


----------



## musedesign

Quote:


headphoneaddict said:


> It's very possible the D6 will open up and become more transparent with more hours, but I'm not sure the tonality or musical quality would change.  I still think the D4 with hiflight's OPA1611 topkit (stock buffers) sounds wonderful.  It was good enough that I could sell my RSA P-51 which sounds very similar (but P-51 had less power).  Even with stock opamps the D4 was pretty good, and I preferred it over my original Pico.
> 
> I PM'd you a link to a battery auction.


 
   
  Hi  Headphone Addict,
   Thank you!  I have compared the D4 to the D6 and the D10, I still prefer the sound character of the D4.  Over and Over, I switched between the amps, thinking I was missing something, but I prefer the D4 of the three amps.  Surprising that I find that the least expensive amp sounds the best.  I will order the topkit and tell you what I think.  Thank you for the PM.
   
  -Mark


----------



## musedesign

Quote:


headphoneaddict said:


> It's very possible the D6 will open up and become more transparent with more hours, but I'm not sure the tonality or musical quality would change.  I still think the D4 with hiflight's OPA1611 topkit (stock buffers) sounds wonderful.  It was good enough that I could sell my RSA P-51 which sounds very similar (but P-51 had less power).  Even with stock opamps the D4 was pretty good, and I preferred it over my original Pico.
> 
> I PM'd you a link to a battery auction.


 

 Hi Headphone Addict,
    Thank you for your recommendations!  Received the iBasso D4 Topkit and starting to compare the different configurations.  Have you compared the OPA1611 to the optional Topkit OPA1678?  Would be interested in your thoughts.
   
  Thanks!  
  -Mark
   
  Potential configurations:
  OPA1611 with Stock Buffers
  OPA1611 with Bypass Buffers
  OPA1678 with Stock Buffers
  OPA1678 with Bypass Buffers


----------



## estreeter

Quote: 





musedesign said:


> Quote:
> 
> Hi  Headphone Addict,
> Thank you!  I have compared the D4 to the D6 and the D10, I still prefer the sound character of the D4.  Over and Over, I switched between the amps, thinking I was missing something, but I prefer the D4 of the three amps.  Surprising that I find that the least expensive amp sounds the best.  I will order the topkit and tell you what I think.  Thank you for the PM.
> ...


 
   
  I dont find it surprising - we arent talking a difference of several hundred dollars here, and each of us has our own preference when it comes to sound. Still, I agree with HiFlight's choice re the P4 as the best (stock) sound of any of the iBasso amps - I havent heard the D10 or the D6, but I have probably spent as many hours with the D4 as anyone on Head-Fi, and most of those were with it as my ONLY amp. The P4 is just more effortless, has a totally black background and is nicer at very low volumes than either the D4 or my current fave, the uHA-120. I should have gone for the stock pot on the latter, but thats all academic - the P4 is as good as anything I have heard, and I really need to get off my butt and buy another one !


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

I have not tried the OPA1678 in the D4, sorry.  I haven't heard the P4 either.


----------



## musedesign

Headphone Addict,
    Thank you for your help with selecting the iBasso D4 with Topkit, I have been loving it!


----------



## HiFlight

Quote: 





musedesign said:


> Quote:
> 
> Headphone Addict, thank you for your advice!
> 
> ...


 

 When comparing the SQ of the Topkit D4 vs D6, please keep in mind that they do not contain the same opamps, therefore one should not expect them to sound exactly alike.  By changing the opamps, you can tailor the sound of either to your own preferences.  The biggest difference between the two is the extra L/R sockets, rechargeable battery and case design of the D6.  Some folks prefer the 9v replaceable battery supply of the D4.  The only real downside of the D4 is that it takes longer to swap opamps because of the case design.
   
  It really isn't too beneficial to ask the opinion of others regarding their favorite combinations of opamps, as each individual hears differently.  Try all the combinations that you have listed and let your ears be your guide!  Your favorite will likely be different from someone else's. 
   
  The LT1678 Class A has a detailed and airy soundstage with tight bass and excellent imaging.   Probably not the best choice for headphones with an overly bright SQ.
   
  Regarding the P4, if one has no need for a DAC, IMO, the P4 is the best amplifier that iBasso has yet introduced to the marketplace.


----------



## cooperpwc

Quote:: 





hiflight said:


> Regarding the P4, if one has no need for a DAC, IMO, the P4 is the best amplifier that iBasso has yet introduced to the marketplace.


 

 That is very interesting.


----------



## JamesMcProgger

What an awesome and useful thread, thanks Headphoneaddict.
   
  I got me a D3 at the FS forums for a bargain, and I like the way you describe it. cant wait to receive it!


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote: 





jamesmcprogger said:


> What an awesome and useful thread, thanks Headphoneaddict.
> 
> I got me a D3 at the FS forums for a bargain, and I like the way you describe it. cant wait to receive it!


 

 To me, the D3 was the turning point in the iBasso portable sound quality.  The D2 Viper really needed the opamp upgrade to shine and surpass the D2 Boa and upgraded D1.  But the D3 shipped with a sound that told me they had spent more time evaluating their choice of opamps. The main thing I didn't like about it was needing FIVE AAA batteries, although they do last much much longer than a single 9v battery in my D4.


----------



## JamesMcProgger

Quote: 





headphoneaddict said:


> To me, the D3 was the turning point in the iBasso portable sound quality.  The D2 Viper really needed the opamp upgrade to shine and surpass the D2 Boa and upgraded D1.  But the D3 shipped with a sound that told me they had spent more time evaluating their choice of opamps. The main thing I didn't like about it was needing FIVE AAA batteries, although they do last much much longer than a single 9v battery in my D4.


 


  over 100 hours is some sort of record for a portable amp indeed.it totally makes it up for the 5 AAA batteries crime.


----------



## JamesMcProgger

I'm really liking the D3. I use it for my transportable rig and as a DAC only for my home rigr, to feed the Gilmore Lite.
   
  and yes the 100 hours battery is superb. build quality and look are top notch.
   
  one complaint only, I cant seem to place my cellphone anywhere nearby it , the interferences gets really really terrible. to the fact that once I hade my cellphone ontop when a text came trough and that sound almost blew my ears. if the cellphone is not near, its totally OK.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote: 





jamesmcprogger said:


> I'm really liking the D3. I use it for my transportable rig and as a DAC only for my home rigr, to feed the Gilmore Lite.
> 
> and yes the 100 hours battery is superb. build quality and look are top notch.
> 
> one complaint only, I cant seem to place my cellphone anywhere nearby it , the interferences gets really really terrible. to the fact that once I hade my cellphone ontop when a text came trough and that sound almost blew my ears. if the cellphone is not near, its totally OK.


 

 I seem to recall mentioning RFI with iPhone and D3 in my review.  I bought an RF blocking card from http://www.quickbridgesolutions.com and it helps a lot when placed between amp and phone.


----------



## JamesMcProgger

yes you did.
  Luckily I dont use an iphone, I use an ipod or mostly computer, but if Im texting, some interferences get into the way. maybe a couple of those cards would fix it. 
   
  shame, otherwise a great dac amp, although If I can place my, or others, cellphones away from it, its not big deal.


----------



## cat6man

hopefully tangentially related to the topic:

does anyone know if the manufacturers in the top 10 list above are working on a digital iPod connection?
since the iPure is less than $100 retail, the cost of the required chip to add this functionality can't be that high. I am quite happy with an RSA predator and
etymotics (i only use my portable rig on airplanes), but the addition of digital i/o from an ipod to a predator-like amp/dac would seem to be a perfect match.

i see stuff beginning to hit the market, like the iPure and Fostex, so hopefully it won't be long before a digital ipod connection makes it way into the top 10.


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## HeadphoneAddict

Quote: 





cat6man said:


> hopefully tangentially related to the topic:
> 
> does anyone know if the manufacturers in the top 10 list above are working on a digital iPod connection?
> since the iPure is less than $100 retail, the cost of the required chip to add this functionality can't be that high. I am quite happy with an RSA predator and
> ...


 
   
   
  Well, I tried searching for the iPure and can't find it.  There's the $199 HRT iStreamer that Skylab really likes, and the Nuforce iDO which is about $249 and I think sounds very good. The Nuforce offers straight iPod digital > S/PDIF out, and also has a DAC for RCA out and headphone out. The $299 Cambridge Audio iD100 Digital iPod/iPad Dock seems to have a following too.
   
  I don't know of anything cheaper than these. And they all need AC power. The Cypher Labs Algorythm Solo would be tops on my list for portable, it it didn't cost almost $600.
   
  And, I don't know of anything that can add a USB output to the 30-pin dock of the iPhone like the Camera connection kit does for the iPad. With that I can feed a low power draw USB DAC/amp directly from the iPad.  But only the Pico DAC-only with it's up-sampling to reduce jitter, or my DACmini seem to offer a fully transparent output with the Camera Connection kit.
   
  [edit - okay, I found the Pure i-20 http://www.pure.com/us/products/product.asp?Product=VL-61429&Category= but I haven't heard it.  Seems like a deal though.]


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## cat6man

I first saw the IPure at the North New Jersey meet last month. A number of folks were using that with ipods, spdif out to their DACs. Therefore, the incremental cost of ipod digital out cannot
be expensive if the entire IPure is less than $100.

Now I don't know the format of the ipod digital out but it may be possible to run digital directly to the DAC input circuitry, or there may need to be something like a spdif receiver, none
of which should be very expensive incorporated inside a DAC/AMP combo..........since this can be internal, there is probably no need to create a usb option to be backward compatible
with "old" amps like the predator (my current amp)...............just an adapter cable to go from ipod to whatever connector the DAC/AMP designer chooses to implement.

i don't expect it will be long, as the fostex and solo should be just the first (overpriced) salvos.................i'm just getting impatient since i can smell it and taste it but can't see it or hear it yet.


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## Mach3

Very informative reading. Thank you


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## HeadphoneAddict

I know this sounds strange to say this in this thread, but at some point there is a point of diminishing returns with this portable gear.  
   
  Yes, at one time I was looking for the best in portable USB DAC-amps, but once they started using high end DACs like Wolfson and others the differences just got smaller.  Lately I've been very happy with the DAC/amp in the D4 or D10 (with upgraded opamps), or Pico DAC-only paired with my Pico Slim or SR-71b balanced amp.  As soon as I was happy with what I had, then I stopped being interested in expanding this thread with new products.  So, I never went on to investigate more recent models like the D6, D12, or XM6 (at least not yet, but the XM6 interests me).  Plus I'd filled up the 1st and 2nd post to the max limit for a while.
   
  I did just recently sell my D10, but only because I have too much gear to listen to everything these days and a friend was in need of one.  Add to that the fact that USB DAC's have gotten to the point where they work as well as the D10 did via optical from my Macbook.  And when using USB as source with my D4, Pico DAC, DACport and uDAC-2 I don't have to worry about a battery running low or dying.  Of course I could have used the D10 with optical while charging it via USB at the same time, but it was easier to toggle between USB audio and the built-in speakers when I didn't have something plugged into the optical-out jack.  
   
  Finally, when I'm not mobile and just using my Macbook at home I find my DACmini to offer superior performance to the portable rigs, which I now use mostly when I travel but not at home.  For listening to my iPad2 on the back deck (watching the sun set over the mountains) I found the Pico DAC-only had the best performance due to it's jitter reduction through the ASRC, and I pair that with my Pico Slim or SR-71b depending on how easy my phones are to drive.
   
  While the uDAC-2 or DACport are portable for laptops but not for smaller analog sources like iPods/iPhones, once we start looking at digital iPod docks (like those discussed above) most of them are pretty much out of the portable realm and plugged into the wall, even though they get paired with portable music players - one exception being the Cypher Labs Algorythm Solo (CLAS) which is no cheaper than a netbook + USB DAC/amp.  The one time I heard the CLAS I thought it was excellent, and maybe a good choice for those who can't tote around a laptop.
   
  I still own many of the DAC/amps from this review, including D4, 3MOVE, XM5, V1, Micro DAC/amp, and Nuforce Icon, while the Pico DAC/Slim replaced my standard Pico DAC/amp and Pico DAC/SR-71b replaced the Predator.  The SR-71b gets used a lot in balanced mode with my laptop rig at home, and the Slim gets used a little with my iPhone when I'm out and about.  I occasionally use the Icon for Skyping with an iPhone headset, or take the XM5 on long trips for it's sleep timer to use at the bedside with IEM and iPhone, but many of these don't get used much anymore.  Since my son traded me his Stax Lambda Nova Signature for my HD600 I don't use the V1 much anymore.  And while the 3MOVE amp is excellent I just find the DAC isn't resolving enough, and since it doesn't have a built-in battery charger I don't use it much.  The D4 with upgraded opamps is wonderful and sounds exactly like my old RSA P-51, but it really needs to use 9v power to drive my full-size phones well, and the 8-10 hour battery life with no built-in charger just doesn't cut it for me either.
   
  So, there is more than just the sound that guides which one of these is best for a person, and the features will often play just as big of a role in choosing which one to use.


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## ExpatinJapan

Nice update thanks headphone addict.
   
  Portable amps are a slippery slope, most people don`t want to spend a lot of money on their first one, which leads to an eventual upgrade(usually a mid level amp, then later they buy the highest level they can get for the price of the entry/mid level amps).
  Synergy of total parts seems to play a role too in the end.
   
  To portable amp or not too amp? As you well know there are varying camps debating the whys, yes`s and No`s.
   
  I myself have a home system but spend a lot of time commuting, so trying to find the perfect combination of isolation, quality and balance is difficult.(I need a two one combination, something that sounds good whilst on a train, and also balances out while walking or sitting).
   
  But as always the search continues, and as it does I often return to original page of this thread.


----------



## Armaegis

I keep coming back to the XM6 wondering if I really want it... but I've already got a D10 with a ton of opamps... and I know that it's not going to be a huge difference. I just want new toys


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## ExpatinJapan

Quote: 





armaegis said:


> I keep coming back to the XM6 wondering if I really want it... but I've already got a D10 with a ton of opamps... and I know that it's not going to be a huge difference. I just want new toys


 
  Me too, I want new toys also.
  Where is my army of head-fi enablers to say `yes, buy, buy!`?


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## Armaegis

You should totally buy the XM6. In fact, you *deserve* the XM6. Buy it. Buy it now. C'mon, all the cool kids already have one. What are you wating for?


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## ExpatinJapan

@Armaegis-you should buy the XM6, you`ve been good lately. c`mon If you keep it for 3 years, 5 years that doesnt add up to much per week does it? 
   
  I deserve the Fostex hp-p1


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## Armaegis

You should totally buy both of them and write a comparison for us.


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## LeonardS

Wow, what a great thread!  Lots of good info.  I'm looking for a "portable" DAC/AMP to pair up with my MB-Air and this thread has gobs of choices, informed discussion, options, etc.
   
  XM6 (not reviewed here) vs. iBasso D10 vs. RSA Predator (pricey) vs. Leckerton UH4 or UH6 vs. used 2Move....
   
  Leaning towards the XM6.  But the wallet watcher part of me is eyeing the used 2Move, as it ranked well.


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## qusp

hey HA, did you get to rmaf? did you get to try out the wyred4sound portable dac and dac/amp offerings? any info its pretty thin on the ground as yet


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## HeadphoneAddict

Quote: 





qusp said:


> hey HA, did you get to rmaf? did you get to try out the wyred4sound portable dac and dac/amp offerings? any info its pretty thin on the ground as yet


 

 That's this coming weekend.  I've been pretty sick but haven't canceled plans to go yet.


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## qusp

ahh doh ok, do report if you get  chance. i think it could be a nice little unit for the money its likely to cost.


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## HeadphoneAddict

I was not able to visit Wyrd4sound at RMAF, sorry.  I did come home with an Audioengine D1 24/96 DAC/amp which I will review in the near future.


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## Armaegis

I think Practical Devices was there. Did you get a chance to try the XM6?


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## HeadphoneAddict

Quote: 





armaegis said:


> I think Practical Devices was there. Did you get a chance to try the XM6?


 

 No, I must have missed them.


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## Armaegis

That's a shame. The v-moda rep was there and the XM6 was the one that really impressed him, so I was hoping to see if you heard it.


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## HeadphoneAddict

Quote: 





armaegis said:


> That's a shame. The v-moda rep was there and the XM6 was the one that really impressed him, so I was hoping to see if you heard it.


 

 Well, I may have heard it with v-moda's model 80, but didn't notice.  I was distracted.  Basically I've been told the XM6 will sound like the XM5 amp, but with a more detailed DAC.  I've tried the Pico DAC feeding the XM5 and it was one of the few single ended portable amps I own that sounded good with the LCD-2 rev1.  I have the AD8065 opamps, with BUF634.  I preferred that over the AD8397 double cat (I may have that number wrong, it's been so long).


----------



## Infoseeker

Is there any safe way to feed these single-end portable amps with full-size headphones without stressing their outlets?


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## HiFlight

infoseeker said:


> Is there any safe way to feed these single-end portable amps with full-size headphones without stressing their outlets?




Yes, purchase a 1/8" to 1/4" Grado adapter. About $15 and works great.


----------



## cooperpwc

Larry, I would like it if you listened to the TTVJ Slim. Curious as to what you think, particularly with the ES5 but also the LCD-2. (I have a TTVJ Slim on the way which I intend to try with the CLAS and ES5...)


----------



## Infoseeker

Thanks for the suggestion.
  
  Quote: 





hiflight said:


> Yes, purchase a Grado adapter. Works great.


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## HeadphoneAddict

Quote: 





cooperpwc said:


> Larry, I would like it if you listened to the TTVJ Slim. Curious as to what you think, particularly with the ES5 but also the LCD-2. (I have a TTVJ Slim on the way which I intend to try with the CLAS and ES5...)


 

 I tried one in the TTVJ room with my HD800 at the CanJam 2009 and thought it sounded very good, desktop quality.  I imagine they still sound just as good now.  I just have too many portable amps to need another one, so I stopped looking.


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## HeadphoneAddict

Quote: 





hiflight said:


> Yes, purchase a 1/8" to 1/4" Grado adapter. About $15 and works great.


 


  I don't like Grado cable adapters, and use the Sennheiser ones.  I think they offer a little more micro-detail/transparency.  YMMV.
   
  (Well, actually I use one with silver wire that AudioCats made for me the most, but don't find the Sennheiser ones to take away much from the music.)


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## DanBa

Quote: 





headphoneaddict said:


> Finally, when I'm not mobile and just using my Macbook at home I find my DACmini to offer superior performance to the portable rigs, which I now use mostly when I travel but not at home.


 


  A (trans) portable DACmini powered by a battery (Energizer XP18000):
http://www.head-fi.org/t/453116/audeze-lcd-2-orthos/15315#post_7627426
   

   

   
   

   
http://www.head-fi.org/t/523850/centrance-dacmini-dac-amplifier-official-thread/270#post_7486714


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## DanBa

Quote: 





qusp said:


> hey HA, did you get to rmaf? did you get to try out the wyred4sound portable dac and dac/amp offerings? any info its pretty thin on the ground as yet


 
  Quote: 





headphoneaddict said:


> That's this coming weekend.  I've been pretty sick but haven't canceled plans to go yet.


 
   

   
   
  "μSeries (Three versions!)
  The μSeries includes a μDAC, μDAC-­‐HD and a μLINK. 
  All three products are constructed in the same chassis which is a 3.5”x3.5”x1” aluminum case powder coated black.
  Depending on your needs all three may be of interest! In spite of the small size these units perform very well!
   
   μDAC
  • Three digital inputs including 24/96 async USB, 24/192 Coaxial and 24/192 Toslink
  • RCA Analog output
  • Power selectable between USB or 9V DC power supply
  • Signal lock indicator
   
  μDAC-HD
  • 24/192 async USB
  • RCA Analog output
  • Headphone output
  • Power selectable between USB or 9V DC power supply
  • Signal lock indicator
   
  μLINK (USB to S/PDIF converter)
  • 24/192 async USB
  • Coax, Toslink, BNC digital outputs
  • Power selectable between USB or 9V DC power supply
  • Signal lock indicator"


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## HeadphoneAddict

Quote: 





danba said:


> "μSeries (Three versions!)
> The μSeries includes a μDAC, μDAC-­‐HD and a μLINK.
> All three products are constructed in the same chassis which is a 3.5”x3.5”x1” aluminum case powder coated black.
> Depending on your needs all three may be of interest! In spite of the small size these units perform very well!
> ...


 

 Looks interesting, but I missed it.  Sorry.


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## HeadphoneAddict

I've been working on a review of the Audioengine D1 24/96 USB/Optical DAC/Amp that I picked up at RMAF http://www.head-fi.org/t/581474/review-of-the-new-audioengine-d1-24-96-usb-and-optical-dac-amp-in-progress#post_7909608 
   
  I'll add to my posts later when the last bit is done, and also post it in the review section at that time.  I felt bad for taking this long to get any impressions posted, so I wanted to post something while I'm 80-90% done. I have not had a chance to fully compare to my uDAC-2 or assynch uDAC-2 SE yet, but I will. I'll also try the optical DAC via my Macbook Pro. 
   
  I also have a new *Nuforce uDAC-2 SE with Assynchronous USB mode*, which I think sounds a bit more transparent and realistic than the original uDAC-2.  I'll be posting my impressions of that as well when I have time. The new Assynch uDAC-2 and the D1 are both strong competition to any of the DAC/amps I've previously reviewed in this thread, and both their RCA line out audio quality seems to be on par with my Pico Slim DAC-only RCA outputs (and RCA out is a little better than headphone out).


----------



## T.F.O.A

Quote: 





danba said:


> A (trans) portable DACmini powered by a battery (Energizer XP18000):
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/453116/audeze-lcd-2-orthos/15315#post_7627426
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Can somebody tell me what's the case on the last picture? it looks really nice and where to get it? 
  thanks


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## T.F.O.A

Ah, nevermind i found it sorry


----------



## AlexRoma

HeadphoneAddict, would you please add  Audioengine D1 into your page.1 ranking ? If i've missed it by accident, please, link me to the thread/post...


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote: 





alexroma said:


> HeadphoneAddict, would you please add  Audioengine D1 into your page.1 ranking ? If i've missed it by accident, please, link me to the thread/post...


 

 I don't have the 1-10 type of ranking anymore, but would divide the ranks into top tier, second tier and bottom tier (as mentioned elsewhere in this thread).  I also can't do such a finely divided placement because half the DAC/amps in this review are gone now.
   
  I'd probably put the Audioengine D1 in the top tier with the D4 and upgraded D10 (opamp kits), because it's DAC is so clean and transparent and performs beyond the DAC of the 3MOVE or XM5 (whose DACs put those 2 into second tier despite their excellent amps).  The AE D1 amp section is on par with the second tier units, but with less power than 3MOVE or XM5 (esp for 300 ohm headphones like HD600).  
   
  I'm now member of "team source first" and so I now tend to gravitate toward the units with the best DACs, even if some of the others have a better amp section. The disadvantage of the D1 or DACport is that their amp sections cannot be evaluated on their own without the DAC in the signal chain, so they can only be weighed as a whole unit.  I'd say the AE D1 is not as transparent as the D4 as a whole, which basically means the sound is very good although not as spacious and deep.  Even then the D4 is not as spacious and deep as the DACport (which is at the very top of the best).  But the units running on 5v USB only are also a little less powerful than those with a 9v battery.
   
  To get an idea of where the AE D1 stands in my DAC/amp rotation, I use it daily for my headphones my Audioengine speakers with my Macbook Pro.  Being able to connect it to my AE speakers via RCA-out to control the volume, to feed it either USB or optical, and to have the speakers shut off when I listen to headphones is invaluable to me.  I previously used the DACport or the D4 in the position, but they were less convenient to switch between speakers and headphones.  The D4 uses a 1/8" line out and won't act as a pre-amp.  The DACport can be used as a speaker pre-amp but requires unplugging the speakers cable, and my speakers pop when unplugged and still powered up.


----------



## AlexRoma

Quote: 





> To get an idea of where the AE D1 stands in my DAC/amp rotation, I use it daily for my headphones my Audioengine speakers with my Macbook Pro. Being able to connect it to my AE speakers via RCA-out to control the volume, to feed it either USB or optical, and to have the speakers shut off when I listen to headphones is invaluable to me.


 
   
  O, I've got the Idea. So AE D1 is a very good DAC for the money, and one of it's greatest pros is versatility when someone has to use both Speakers and (sensitive) Headphones. 
   
   
  For a pure (hardcore) head-fi-er , though, Ibasso stuff serves better... Ok...


----------



## Armaegis

The bass is pretty solid on the D10 depending on the buffers... but if you're really a basshead, then just get something that has the appropriate bass boost for you.


----------

