# Subwoofer for a 2CH Speaker System?



## akwok

Hey everybody (long time no see, yadda yadda)

 I'm looking to purchase a subwoofer for my speaker system (listed in sig). I'm finding the bass to be a bit lacking with my Guarneris, especially with the genres of music I listen to. I am currently leaning towards either a Velodyne DD-12/15 or a Omega DeepHemp. I'm looking for a subwoofer that's impactful but not bloated; the primary purpose is to listen to music -- not games & movies.

 This is my first foray into subs so I'm not entirely sure what I need, and thus here I am asking for help. As always, cheaper would be better (highly preferable in the < $1000 used range).

 I only have a pair of pre-amp'd RCA outs available to plug into a sub, so hopefully that will be sufficient.

 Thanks,
 Adrian


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## TheBends

also to consider are the various ID (internet direct) companies that receive very good reviews because of their lower overheads. Also important for subs is the size of the room they will be placed in as well as the dimensions, dynamics, etc, etc. that being said, there are 3 companies that i myself have considered in my search for a sub (or 2) for my home theatre set up.

 3 subs come to mind (assuming that we're in a fairly large room)
 1.HSU Research - Dr. Hsu from MIT has been very influential and significant in research and design of subwoofers, you can check out the very good review from audioholics of the hsu vtfmk3 sub here

 2.AV123(Onix)- has just released news of their new MFW15 sub which is expected (given their track record) to be fantastic. it has already been reviewed (i think) by Craigsub(who is an internet celebrity of sorts in testing subwoofers, i believe he's over at audioholics and avsforum) and he was impressed. This is another solid choice, and the real wood veneer on the avs speakers is so pretty.

 3.SVSound- is another company who's name comes up a lot in the "very good subs under 1000" category and they have a wide selection. 

 I would highly recommend reading up on audioholics/avsforum for more info. I tend to prefer the people over at audioholics better seeing as that they don't have forum categories like 'high end (over $10,000)' because i fundamentally disagree with this claim on so many levels. Anyhow, both are very good resources (Avs for the sheer quantity, and audioholics for their own perspective that is driven by the bottom line, what sounds good).

 And, if you're looking in the below $500 range or so, there are also kits from Parts Express (the dayton ones) that have fairly good reviews, and the bic h-100 seems to be very popular in the closer to $200 range. Obviously these won't extend down to below 20hz (as some of these do) but they are good for the money. Once again, you can check out the various opinions over at the above mentioned forums.


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## alleyezon_d

I have a Definitive Technology ProSub80 (on older model) and it is a very fast and musical sub. DD-12 is a monster and could be way too much bass for your needs.


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## swt61

JL Audio: Products


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## infinitesymphony

TheBends's choices are the ones I'd look into as well.


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## akwok

Thanks for the detailed replies.

 I was considering the SVS Cylinders as well, but I think that would be overkill for my needs. I am NOT a basshead at all.

 I am currently swayed by the Velodyne DD-10 as it has some pretty rave reviews, and I really like its equalization function.

 Also, my (dedicated) room is relatively small, so I'm looking for something in a small footprint, I think. The last thing I want really is room-shaking bass.


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## akwok

Actually, now inching more towards an SVS PB12 Plus. Any thoughts? I'm just worried it might be too overkill for my 11x17 room.


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## shaizada

The Omega DeepHemp driver is actually a very fast a musical sub. It easily goes down the 25Hz and is very quick at keeping up with the rest of the drivers. I really think a "musical" sub is what you should have in your system.

 I'm always wary of subwoofers in general due to speed and crossover points in relation to the room response. However, I have to say that the Omega Deephemp is an exception.

 Good luck with your search. 

 ~G


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## Bert

Have a look at this article:

Sound and Vision Magazine - Shootout: Five Mid-Price Subwoofers
 Subwoofers from Hsu Research, Klipsch, Outlaw Audio, SVS, and Velodyne duke it out.
 By Ken C. Pohlmann • May 2007

 And this one: 

*[size=large]Mirage[/size]
[size=x-large][size=small]Omni S12 Subwoofer Home Theater & Sound Equipment Review -- Mirage Omni S12 Subwoofer (2/2005)[/size] 

 [/size]* 
 Please post your choice and feedback after purchase.

 Bert


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## akwok

I'm pretty sure I've settled on a Hsu VTF-3 HO or MK3 now. However, I still need to source one. If anyone knows where I can buy a used one (shipping to US), please PM me -- it'd be greatly appreciated!


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## TheBends

audiogon, ebay?, for sale sections of various forums (avs, audioholics, etc)

 otherwise, buy directly?

 on a side note, you can never worry about having too much bass, because you can back it off, "but if you can't have nothing at all, if there was nothing there all along." 

 man i want a hsu vtf3 with a turbo so bad, but i'll wait for the av123 mkw15 reviews....

 That being said, i think a vtf2 mk3 might even be enough for your needs... its your call. you can't go wrong with hsu either way.


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## akwok

I guess I'll just hound the 'gon until one pops up for sale. I won't be able to use it until April, anyways.

 I'm not too sure about the turbocharger though. From impressions, it seems to extend the bass deeper but at the cost of distortion at other frequencies. However, it sure looks cool!


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## infinitesymphony

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *akwok* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm not too sure about the turbocharger though. From impressions, it seems to extend the bass deeper but at the cost of distortion at other frequencies. However, it sure looks cool!_

 

It's just a port extender that lengthens the frequency path and lowers the resonance frequency, sort of like how Bose puts a series of long passages in their small speakers in order to improve bass response.


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## spacemanspliff

really only audiogon or avsforums, audioholics come to mind.

 Totem makes some damn fast and musical subs btw.


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## tom hankins

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *akwok* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm pretty sure I've settled on a Hsu VTF-3 HO or MK3 now. However, I still need to source one. If anyone knows where I can buy a used one (shipping to US), please PM me -- it'd be greatly appreciated! _

 

There are none there now but I have seen them come up on a fairly regular basis on AudiogoN high end audio auctions, classifieds, hifi chat


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## GreatDane

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *akwok* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am currently swayed by the Velodyne DD-10 as it has some pretty rave reviews, and I really like its equalization function.
_

 

I've been using a Velodyne HGS 10 for a few years which is an older relative of the DD 10. I too needed a small sub and it still impresses me. The quality and quantity of bass is amazing for this tiny sub(under one square foot).


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## Patu

Buy 2x Anthony Gallo TR-1 subwoofers. My friend has two of them in his speaker setup and I have one "only". Main use is music listening and that's the reason why I bought it. It works for movies also but because of its small size can't produce that big pressures (not sure if this is the right term in english). It produces very fast bass with great impact. No problems keeping on track with some faster music and double basses. 

 Don't let its cheap retail price fool you. This subwoofer is a killer for music.

Gallo's TR-1 Powered Subwoofer


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## classicalguy

Re Gallo: cheap retail price for a 10" sub? Looks expensive to me (300 pounds is about $600 US, I believe?) 

 The general focus in subs seems to be spl rather than musicality. I've heard the HSU subs are musical. Also, the AV123 8" is supposed to be a good deal, when it's in stock. For music, 8" should do a good job. I have an 8" Athena sub in my bedroom, and it's pretty good with music. Unfortunately, it bottoms out terribly with very low sound effects. I suspect the 8" HSU would be a lot better.


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## darkninja67

Since you guys are throwing ID brands around I figured I may was well play:

Home (Epik Subwoofers) are getting great reviews at Avs

 as is: Elemental Designs

 There is some wait time involved with the eD subs right now. 

 Personally I like the Hsu VTF3 Mk III as well as the AV123 MFW-15 (in rosewood which would match my speakers)

 Good luck and post impressions when you get what you want.


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## akwok

Wow, lots of subs. The Gallo looks pretty cool too!

 Gotta do some more research. If anybody else has any more suggestions, feel free to send them this way!


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## akwok

A pair of AV123 MFW-15s for $999 looks interesting. Anyone happen to have some AV123 coupons for sale?


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## TheBends

coupons?! you need a time machine for av123, their speakers are always back ordered. i swear they're holding back to create more buzz and anticipation, but it may backfire on them when people get tired of waiting and start buying other speakers.


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## nghiasays

MFW-15 is a really good choice. There is also A7S-450 from elemental design but also on backorder.


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## darkninja67

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *TheBends* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_coupons?! you need a time machine for av123, their speakers are always back ordered. i swear they're holding back to create more buzz and anticipation, but it may backfire on them when people get tired of waiting and start buying other speakers._

 

There is a good reason people wait for Av123 products.


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## TheBends

i don't doubt that there's a good reason. i'm saying that at a certain point, refusing to up their production capabilities to meet demand _could _ backfire. buzz can only hold for so long before people will look into the next big ID company with affordable offerings. 

 that being said, i'll be waiting for the mfw15 reviews because that thing looks gorgeous. i'll also be looking into securing some xls for a setup, 6 months down the road when they're in stock. hehe


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## darkninja67

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *TheBends* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i don't doubt that there's a good reason. i'm saying that at a certain point, refusing to up their production capabilities to meet demand could  backfire. buzz can only hold for so long before people will look into the next big ID company with affordable offerings. 

 that being said, i'll be waiting for the mfw15 reviews because that thing looks gorgeous. i'll also be looking into securing some xls for a setup, 6 months down the road when they're in stock. hehe_

 

I hear the BMF1 is coming out before 2010.


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## wisehybred

The Bowers and Wilkins ASW CM has been a workhorse for me, using anywhere from multi-channel music to two channel setups, very musical and damn powerful. Of course its not available, but thought id throw my two cents in. I am a dealer for Velodyne, Paradigm and B&W. Paradigm makes pretty a good sub, but you have to spend $3500 to really get any type of musicality.


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## Patu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *classicalguy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Re Gallo: cheap retail price for a 10" sub? Looks expensive to me (300 pounds is about $600 US, I believe?) _

 

They're little over 300EUR/piece here in Finland. I'd imagine that they're pretty much the same but in dollars for people in US.


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## akwok

As it stands right now it is going to be Hsu vs. av123. Really, whichever pops up first on Audiogon will be the one I'm picking up, I suppose!


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## swt61

I own two AV123 UFW-10 subs. They are phenomenal especially considering the price. Very musical, and absolutely gorgeous real wood veneer. Keep your eye open for one on A-gon. One would be enough for your situation IMO.

 It's highly doubtful you'll find an MFW-15 on A-gon soon, since it's a new product.


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## akwok

So after going back and forth, it seems that the MFW-15 is a bit too big (and probably not suited) for my room. Back to the drawing board -- Velodyne DD-10, that is.

 Sub shopping is quite fun though, reminds me of when I first got into Head-Fi..


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## TheBends

just out of curiousity, why not the hsu offerings?


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## akwok

I am worried that it might overpower my Guarneris in my 11x17 room!


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## classicalguy

Maybe the better question is whether an 8" or 10" or even 12" sub would sound faster and more musical? There really is very little music below 40hz. I'd rather have the stuff above 40hz done right, than a great and powerful 15hz tone.


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## infinitesymphony

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *classicalguy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Maybe the better question is whether an 8" or 10" or even 12" sub would sound faster and more musical? There really is very little music below 40hz. I'd rather have the stuff above 40hz done right, than a great and powerful 15hz tone._

 

What about organ music, electronica, low rock music, etc.? His Sonus Faber Guarneri Homage mains are -3 dB at 55 Hz, so they should have the majority of the classical orchestra covered (excluding organ), but he says that they aren't enough for certain genres of music.

 It seems that speed is more a function of the room's decay rate, the subwoofer's design, and its internal amplifier's power handling than the size of the woofer or the enclosure. Some of the larger Hsus might sound as tight as a Sunfire True subwoofer... who knows?


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## swt61

Sumiko the US importer for Sonus Faber also imports the REL line of subwoofers. They have a very good reputation, and have many models to choose from. Have you considered them Adrian?


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## classicalguy

Yes, it's surely not ONLY size that counts.  But size is a factor. I wonder how good a huge 15 incher is going to do crossed over at 100or 120 hz? No doubt it will go low, and move a lot of air, but for music that's not the most important thing. Hsu makes a mid-bass unit to go along with his big subs - why if the big subs handle the mid-bass so well? High quality 10" with a strong amp should do music quite well.


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## warpdriver

I'm using the SVS SB12Plus (their small box sealed sub) with great results in conjunction with the Velodyne SMS-1. I have the response dialed in +/-2dB down to 25Hz. It's a sealed sub and it sounds very tight, so I'm very happy with the results.

 I heard the SVS PB12Plus once, and it sounded fairly boomy, probably the room, but I didn't pursue it any further based on that.

 I think if you want a musical sub, you're definitely on the right track with the DD10 or 12, they are immensely musical subs, but still provide plenty of kick down to 25Hz which is 99% of what you need for music unless all you listen to is pipe organs.


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## Tgun5

I've never met a Velodyne that I liked. At the risk of offending someone here please don't buy a Velodyne for music reproduction. 

 Although I don't particularly like Carvers stuff in general, the Sunfire subs are pretty nice and tight at 100 cycles -down. 

 The Paradigm subs are the ticket though. Underated unfortunately. They are built well and none of their models exhibit tubby, uncontroled bass. The best sub I have ever heard (and owned) by far is the Paradigm Seismic 10. The rest of the Paradigms are very good also, but the Seismic is in a class of it's own.

 And yes, I speak from experience as I've owned M&K, Velodyne, Sunfire, multiple models of Paradigm and others.

 Stay with a 10" sub.


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## akwok

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *swt61* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sumiko the US importer for Sonus Faber also imports the REL line of subwoofers. They have a very good reputation, and have many models to choose from. Have you considered them Adrian?_

 

Yea, I've been looking at some RELs on Audiogon (the Britannia B3), but unfortunately the last one sold for a nice price a few days ago.

 I will check out the Paradigm Seismic 10. Good thing too, cause Paradigm is Canadian as well!


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## swt61

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *akwok* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yea, I've been looking at some RELs on Audiogon (the Britannia B3), but unfortunately the last one sold for a nice price a few days ago.

 I will check out the Paradigm Seismic 10. Good thing too, cause Paradigm is Canadian as well!_

 

I own Paradigm Reference Active 20's, and I'm quite impressed with the company as a whole. The only Paradigm sub I've spent any real time with was the servo controlled Reference 15. That was quite a nice sub, but I agree that a 10" sub is probably what you want.

 Here ya go...

AudiogoN ForSale: Paradigm Seismic-10


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## warpdriver

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Tgun5* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The Paradigm subs are the ticket though. Underated unfortunately. They are built well and none of their models exhibit tubby, uncontroled bass. The best sub I have ever heard (and owned) by far is the Paradigm Seismic 10. The rest of the Paradigms are very good also, but the Seismic is in a class of it's own._

 

I went to hear the whole lineup once, and the Seismic were pretty meh to me. They sounded pretty loud for their size, but I thought they were a bit sloppy. Now, the one that did impress me was the Paradigm Servo 15 V2 playing in the same room I heard the Seismic in. That would be worth every cent. Utterly tight and musical. It's also good proof that a large driver can sound "fast"...putting an end to that myth for me. I still regret not jumping on the Servo 15 when the dealer was clearing out them at 40% off 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 You said you didn't like Velodyne but have you heard the DD line of Velodyne? It's in a different league than any of the other Velodyne sub lines. They are supremely musical especially once you fine tune them with the parametric EQ


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## Tgun5

Different strokes I guess. I owned the seismic ten and never experienced sloppy bass. I can't say that any of the Paradigms are that way. 

 I have not heard the DD Velodynes


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## TheBends

i found this thread over at audioholics comparing the dd10 to the dd12

Velodyne DD-10 or DD-12...help me decide! - Audioholics Home Theater Forums


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## warpdriver

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Tgun5* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I can't say that any of the Paradigms are that way. 

 I have not heard the DD Velodynes_

 

I guess it's relative. If you compare one Paradigm to another casually, you might find not find any of them sloppy. But if you compare, say a UltraCube 10, to a Definitive Technology Supercube III, or a SVS SB12Plus as I did, you'll definitely find the Paradigm to be the sloppiest (and weakest) of the bunch. I heard the PW2200, the Ultracube 10/12, the Seismic 12, and the Servo 15 all within a 45 minute window in the dealer's same room, and you could easily tell that the Servo 15 was in a different league. It sounded cleaner and cleaner the more we raised the volume. The PW2200 was ok, but definitely a bit boomy, the Ultracube sounded very distressed (distorted) in the large room we auditioned it in, the Seismic did pretty well but if I was looking in that price range, I would spring for the Servo 15 which blew it away. I have not heard their newest DSP line so I can't say anything about that....hopefully it's better than the previous lines.

 For the OP, I'd suggest you do check out the REL, the DD10 if you can. For the Paradigm, I'm not saying the Seismic is bad or anything but for the same price, I think you could do better. The Martin Logans are pretty good too, I heard the Descent which was pretty good.


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## Tgun5

Sorry I was too vague with a different strokes statement. The real issue is that...........

 There are a lot of variables in a store setting unless you take a lot of time to correct them. If you listened to a wall of woofers through a switcher, forget it. Add the variables of crossover setting, room placement, cables used, equipment used, the room itself, the gain setting, and what other speakers are in the room in close proximity to the mix. Dead speakers and woofers specifically amplify the ones that are being demonstrated as they act as passive drivers. A 10" sub with a 15" sub in close proximity could sound very bloaty with a 15" driver acting as a passive radiator. 

 Go to a store that has a wall of plasmas. You will most likely find the one that has the most profit to be the one they have tweaked. I’m not saying that this is true with woofers, but unless the salesman really wants to do a fair comparison, he will probably not take the time to set each and every woofer to the same settings. Then you would have to play the same music selections on each woofer. I owned a high-end store for 13 years. We had a room that was used only to bring equipment in one at a time to compare. It was a lot of work and you won’t find any stores that will do it today. I was a purist though and wanted my customers to be confident in their decision. Plus, it really wasn’t work when you enjoy it. 

 I can also tell you that when I was in Atlanta, I took my son to Tweeter to hear the Martin Logan Vantages. There was a wall of 4 Logan models among other choices that the salesman demonstrated with the same equipment. I wouldn’t have paid $1 for any of the speakers because they sounded just awful. I was able to compare them against each other though. Trouble is the best speaker in the house wouldn’t have been the Vantage because it was compromised. Too many speakers in the same room. Who knows what speaker wire, and a switcher? Give me a break. I know different though as the Vantage is an incredible speaker. 

 I have heard the PW2200 (owned it), the Seismic 10 (owned it) and the Servo 15 (in store). Using the very best interconnect and equipment, both of 2200 and Seismic were tight and controlled for music.


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## warpdriver

Well, I guess our opinions differ, because I heard what I heard, and the placement was pretty good, we moved the other subs out of the way, and put the sub into the same wall of the room which had a couple of tube traps. Maybe I'm more discerning and pushed them harder (I used some very demanding deep bass tracks, drum solos), because I could very clearly hear differences among the models, they didn't all sound "tight and controlled for music". Some sounded better than the other. Even my friend was very distracted and wasn't listening could tell the Servo was much better. The Ultracubes were the worst, they were fluttering under the load of my test tracks, and the PW2200 had a fatter midbass. The Servo sounded very flat, even below 30Hz where the others started to taper.

 I'm quite aware that the sub/room interaction is a critical factor, but relatively speaking, they were very different sounding subs. I'm sure some of them could have benefitted from better placement (after all, I spent hours fine tuning my own room for my own sub). I've probably had at least a half dozen different subs go through my own room so I know how different they can be even when properly set up.


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## Tgun5

Warpdriver,

 I'm not challenging your ears or your methods, just explaining that in order to accurately compare subs, the testing must be equal

 For music, I believe a sub should be seen and not heard (so to speak). For music, you want a seamless transition to the point that you absolutely don't know a sub is there. Consequently, trying to audition a sub for music use is difficult because you have a speaker you are most likely unfamiliar with and you pump the sub's gain up to try to hear what it's doing. 

 I could control my demo to the point that if I wanted to, any particular sub could be made to sound better on any given day. I knew my room’s hot spots. And especially with tube traps or any other room/frequency controlling devices. Move the sub one foot to the left and you could be in frequency modulating hell.

 And you admit that you probably pushed them harder. That’s alright, but notes at 40 and 50 cycles dropping into the 2 ohm arena suck up far more juice than a subs amp can really produce. 1000 watts is nothing at higher volumes in a large room. That in itself could cause tubby bass.

 Like I said – different strokes. Your way of comparing and mine are different, so the outcome will be as well. That’s what makes this hobby interesting


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## Melchior

If you're willing to do a little diy(and I do mean "little") consider of of Rythmik's DS12 kits. Rythmik Audio | products

 If you can fashion your own cab this is best, I was planning on doing that but chickened out and just bought a Parts Express box, cut the two holes for driver and amp, and screwed them in. I didn't use the supplied screws for the amp, bought a small kit with hex bolts(~2 bucks) for a more professional look+ solid construction. The end result was a sub that gives the illusion of my MMG's extending down to subwoofer frequencies, it blends in that well.


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## akwok

Unfortunately I do not trust myself with DIY!


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## Zuerst

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *akwok* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Actually, now inching more towards an SVS PB12 Plus. Any thoughts? I'm just worried it might be too overkill for my 11x17 room._

 

Overkill? Nah... I'm pretty set on getting the SVS PC13-Ultra and that's just for my 18x13.5 living room... (ok the living room kinda go straight into 6x13.5 kitchen and dining area... that sort of go into a hall way and into a moderately sized room...)

 But the cylinder form-factor is really awesome.

 EDIT: AND I live in an apartment complex...


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## swt61

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Zuerst* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Overkill? Nah... I'm pretty set on getting the SVS PC13-Ultra and that's just for my 18x13.5 living room... (ok the living room kinda go straight into 6x13.5 kitchen and dining area... that sort of go into a hall way and into a moderately sized room...)

 But the cylinder form-factor is really awesome.

 EDIT: AND I live in an apartment complex..._

 

Yeah I'm using two Rocket UFW-10's in my tiny little office/studio. 

 I couldn't help myself though, Fitz was selling the second one too cheap to pass up. Eventually they'll be located in a larger space.


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## classicalguy

Does your office sound like one of those cars driving by that shakes the whole neighborhood?


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## akwok

I bought a Gallo TR-2 for about $400, since I wish to spend my remaining funds on a guitar.

 Thanks for the advice everyone! I will post back when I integrate it into my system in April.


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## tom hankins

Congrats. Good luck setting it up, and I look forward to your impressions.


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