# REVIEW: Grover Ultimate Reference Interconnects



## markl

[size=medium]*Why Aren't These Cables $1000?*[/size] 

 Got your attention? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I know I’m not the first person here on Head-Fi to fall under the spell of these fantastic cables, so that kind of hyperbole may not necessarily sound like an exaggeration to the already-converted. Nevertheless, these cables caught me totally off-guard. For $140, I just wasn't expecting the level of performance they delivered. I am now firmly entrenched on "Team Grover". I have been assimilated! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




*Test Bed* 
 Sony SCD-555ES SACD player with full sacdmods.com modifications 

 Ray Samuels Audio HR-2 headphone amplifier

 Sony MDR-R10 headphones 

*How to Order* 
 Grovers' cables are a shocking $140, only available straight from the manufacturer. No web site, just a secret handshake. Go to www.stevehoffman.tv, then go to the forums, and click on the “Contact Us” button and ask about the Grovers. Agents will be dispatched to your address at the stroke of midnight, you will then be blindfolded, driven to a secret location and given Grover’s contact info. Communication with Grover is by carrier pigeon or special courier who travels in an unmarked van.

*Previous Cables* 
 I've owned approx. 25-30 different sets of interconnects over the last 7-9 years from around 15-18 different manufacturers. These varied in price from $50-$1200. Before the Grovers, my ICs of choice were the Virtual Dynamics Reference ICs with all the special features VD offers. These were $750 ICs. I also tried the VD Nite ICs, which at $1200 still are the most expensive ICs I've ever owned. For the life of me, I couldn't detect much real difference between these and the References, so I kept the References and sold the Nites. 

 The VD References couldn't be more different from the Grovers in design. The VDs are incredibly THICK copper ICs (all but inflexible), with extremely heavy-gauge, single stranded copper, surrounded by VD's ferrous material, with big, imposing locking WBTs. The References also have VD’s “Speed of Light” technology, which is essentially a magnet at either end of the cable that they claim improves performance. 

 Many here on the site have mocked some of VD’s more (let’s say) “aggressive” marketing claims for their cables, but there are an equally large number of converts here who have listened to them and swear by them. I don’t know why they sound so good, whether it's because of or despite any (alleged) pseudo-scientific “innovations”, but they do. That said, really the “science” of cables is still very undeveloped, it’s more of an “art”. 

 In contrast, The Grovers are shockingly thin, supple, flexible with non-descript RCA connections. They are individually “signed” by Grover on the heatshrink. They are a very basic-looking cable with a cute, personalized “home-made” quality to them. They look like the work of a single craftsman (which they are) instead of an impersonal company with an assembly line.

*Digression #1:*
 There is a cable-maker out there who bases all their marketing around the fact that they only use rigorous scientific testing of their cables to produce designs that measure the best. The company is Analysis Plus, you’ve no doubt heard of them. They’re famous for their trade-show demo that shows how their cables measure much better than some of the much more expensive products from their competitors. They developed their own special cable geometry, the “hollow-oval” that they claim is responsible for the demonstrably better performance of their products. 

 One thing about the Grovers is that they are a sonic *microscope*, they make you painfully aware of any upstream anomalies. I decided that since I loved the Grovers so much, I wanted to fiddle with the power cabling in my system to achieve a better balance. So, as an experiment, I went from a sort of “faith-based” cable-maker (Virtual Dynamics), to the ultimate in scientific testing and measurement, Analysis Plus. I ordered a pair of the Analysis Plus Oval 10 power cords for my source and headphone amp. 

 On the plus side, highs were crystal clear and clean as could be. Soundstaging left-to-right was remarkable. They were unbelievably fast. But tonal balance was all wrong. They were bright, forward in the treble and thin. When music got hectic and loud, it all tended to go a little “white” and bleached out.

 Those cables may measure extremely well, but (in my system) they did not sound good at all. Honestly (and I know this kind of philosophy upsets many people here) I don’t especially care all that much how something sounds to a machine, I only care how it sounds to my own ears. Give me a well-voiced cable made by a skilled craftsman over a badly-voiced cable that measures well any day. For me, in audio, there’s only “I like” and “I don’t like”, I don’t care if some component lives up to someone else’s idea of “neutrality”. No two people agree on what “neutral” sounds like anyway.

 Which is not to say the Grovers aren’t “neutral” or don’t measure well. I have no idea about either of those, I have not toured Grover’s facilities, so I have no idea what tools he uses when he’s verifying his designs. For all I know, his equipment may be even more elaborate than Analysis Plus. What I do know for sure is that Grover has a great pair of ears, which he uses to evaluate if any changes he makes to his design has wrought an improvement. And that’s an “art” and not a science! Before owning the Ultimate Reference cables, I had a pair (briefly) of his previous model, the Silver Reference II. The SRIIs are also fantastic cables, but this latest revision of the Ultimate Reference is something else. I chalk that improvement up to Mr. Huffman’s ears.

 I can say the URs are the most “transparent” cables I’ve ever heard, extremely sensitive instruments, they are incredibly adept at showing you how any changes upstream in the signal path can effect the sound you hear. My hunch is that this perceived transparency would be attributable to measuring extremely well, as they don’t seem to let anything impede the signal and they are as clean as could be.

*Digression #2:*
 The Grovers are the first silver cables I’ve ever liked. Of the two dozen different cables I’ve owned, 5 were pure silver and two were silver/copper hybrids. People who praise any given silver cable always seem to do so with the exact same disclaimer—“wow-- these silver cables are great; they don’t even sound like silver cables!” Well, if the only good silver cable is the rare exception that doesn’t sound like a silver cable, why not just stick with good ol’ copper? The stereotype of silver interconnects used to be that they were “bright”, “tipped up”, “edgy” and “forward”. Makers of silver cables are now always quick to tell you that their cables defy that stereotype.

 And sure enough, none of the silver cables I tried exhibited these characteristics. Instead, each of the pure silver cables I auditioned were *thin*-sounding with a sort of gauzy, soft-focus Vaseline-on-the-lens, foggy quality. They did lack bass somewhat but they weren’t necessarily bright. They were tipped up in the high frequencies but remained too soft and silky to be objectionable. Yes, proportionately they had more high-end than bottom, but at least the silver cables produced clean, smooth and polite treble response. I would have actually loved for them to exhibit a little more of the crispness and focus that stereotypical silver cables were "supposed" to deliver.

 After those experiences, I had given up on silver as a conductor. I chalked it up to a sort of scam perpetrated by cable makers who hoped that gullible customers would assume that since silver is more expensive than copper, it must therefore be a better conductor, and thus get them to upgrade. After all, where can you go really with a copper cable after the $500-$700 price point without arousing a lot of suspicion about how much those cables *really* cost to make? Incorporating silver conductors seems like a useful marketing gimmick to enable $1000 + cables. (Not that that’s stopped cable-makers from producing $5K+ copper cables!) I suspect there are lots of electrical/chemical factors involved in making one metal a better conductor than another, but I doubt that scarcity on planet earth is one of them. I still do get a good chuckle out of the recent proliferation of cables with *gold* conductors, though. 

 Anyway, my experience with the Grover Ultimate Reference pure silver cable has really changed my mind about silver interconnects. *(EDIT: Grover has verified that his latest revision of the UR uses both silver *and* copper, unlike previous versions and previous models that were 100% silver).* I now realize that the debate between copper vs. silver is on the same sort of shaky footing as the tubes vs. solid state debate, the CD vs. SACD debate, the speaker cones vs. electrostatic debate—the answer is, *it all depends on IMPLEMENTATION*. A well-executed CD will sound better than a badly-executed hi-rez disc, a well-executed tube circuit will out-perform a badly-executed solid-state device, etc. etc. I don’t know if in the abstract silver is a better conductor than copper, but I do know that the Grovers are the best-sounding cables I’ve ever heard. 

 How much of that is due to its use of pure silver (or despite it), I’ll never know, frankly no longer care. Still, what’s inside a Grover cable? I suspect only Grover knows for sure, and at the moment he ain’t talking. No web site, no brochures, no marketing bullet points, no graphics showing cross-sections of his cables, no outrageous claims. Just one model, no big product line with multiple upgrade points to cause anxiety and sleepless nights ("would I be happier *if only* I had ordered the next model up?"). You get the feeling that as far as Grover is concerned, the Ultimate Reference is IT, there is no upgrade path, just one cable that represents his best effort, period, and there’s something both elegant and comforting about that. 

 And the cost of entry is a mere $140. That makes this cable available essentially to everyone. As I’ll explain later, I think that may be a double-edged sword in some ways.

 The cables I’m reviewing are (as of this writing) the latest and greatest version of his Ultimate Reference (as of 5 weeks ago anyway). Previously I had his excellent Silver Reference II. For me, this new one is in a different class than the SRII which were still completely excellent. 

*Early Impressions*
 I like to take notes as I first get acquainted with any product under review. I find it’s one of the best ways to capture the essence of a new component. These comments represent the attributes of the cables that jumped out at me while my ears were still fresh to the Grover sound, and that I suspect would leap out at you. These are essentially boiled down from many pages of notes taken over a period of weeks. I found I was repeating myself, but just wording things in a different way, which meant that I had essentially nailed their key attributes which I think can be summed up as follows:

 1. These cables are all about “air”. Not airy-fairy, light-weight, ghostly or “floaty” sound, but in the sense of providing SPACE around each instrument to breathe. Each instrument occupies its own unique pocket in the soundstage. Individual tracks within the mix stand out from one another without losing sight of the whole gestalt of the music.

 2. Lots of depth to the soundstage, you can step right in and walk around back there. Very wide soundstage, too.

 3. Very natural tonality, “musical”. Everything sounds very true and accurate.

 4. Immaculately clean presentation. No grain.

 5. Smooooooth. Does not etch or outline sounds artifically. No unnatural hard or jagged edges that result from distortion.

 6. Highs are to die for. Cymbals are never abrasive or jagged. 

 7. EASE. These cables never strain, everything *flows* in a completely unfettered way. They just disappear.

 8. Nimble and quick without being hyper or jumpy. Amazing stability to the image.

 9. Does not sound like you are listening to a recording, but witnessing an actual event. You feel like you could reach out and shake hands with the players.

 10. CLARITY in the extreme, maximum TRANSPARENCY.

 11. Notes fully resolve effortlessly without ringing or overhang. Subtle over and undertones fully rendered.

 12. Stereo panning/phasing effects are delightful, special effects really move around in their own space.

 13. Pulls no punches, if the recording is flawed, you will hear it.

 14. Hearing all kinds of things I’ve never heard before on familiar recordings such as coughing in the studio, breathing of the singer, lip smacks, etc. The Grovers paint a more full and complete picture, which makes everything seem more REAL.

 15. Places you *in the studio* as the session is being recorded. Remarkable “you are there” quality, the sound of the space in which the recording was made is revealed.

 16. Increased the pure resolution of system exponentially. To use an analogy from photography, t's like going from a 35mm negative to a 4x5.

 17. Not a *subtle* or sublime or colored cable, it’s all about being transparent and resolving. It’s an open window on the signal, and that can be unforgiving. Won’t “gloss over” flaws in your system. Does not hold you at a polite distance. Shines a bright light on all the dark corners of every recording.

 18. Are these cables “bright”? Or, is this what happens when you take the “brakes” off the sound that other cables are subtly applying? Stripping away all the veils you didn’t even know were there, eliminating all resistance or bottlenecking in the cable? 

*So, Why Aren’t These Cables $1000?*
 It’s that last comment in my listening notes that I puzzled over for some time, I just couldn’t shake the feeling that they may be somewhat tipped up in the highs. But this could be due to the extreme clarity across the frequency range, and that might be creating the illusion of extra treble, or possibly even showing a bias in my source signal from my CDP. Since I liked everything else about the cables, I decided to see if swapping power cables might resolve the question. 

 Removing the new Analysis Plus Oval 10 power cords from my system and trying various other models from other makers solved the question about the treble, and revealed something else about the Grovers—they are *extremely* sensitive to changes upstream, moreso than any other cable I’ve tried. The problem turned out to be the new Analysis Plus cables I was auditioning; the Grovers just allowed me to hear more clearly what they were doing to my source. The effect was not so good. With proper power cabling installed, my source sounded like its old self again treble-wise.

 This I think is their blessing and their curse. In the wrong system, they’ll just show the “wrongness” of the upstream components in stark relief. The Grovers give your source nowhere to hide. In my case, I was lucky in that by tweaking the power cabling of my source, I was able to achieve a more balanced sound. The Grovers are well worth tweaking your system’s power cabling to accommodate them, or, more accurately, correcting upstream problems that the Grovers reveal instead of simply giving up on them. As I said, they’re a sonic microscope and that can cut both ways.

 They are priced so low, my suspicion is that they might tend to be put in systems that “can’t handle the truth”, so to speak. I can see some budget systems being revealed a little too harshly under the Grover’s eagle-eye gaze. I can see some people incorrectly blaming the cables for the sins of their source, pre-amp, power cabling, or their power conditioning. As I noted previously, when I had the wrong power cabling, the Grovers showed it to me-- clearly. They are sensitive instruments and must be fed accordingly. You get out of them *exactly* what you put in.

 The low price also means they may not always end up being placed in the kind of high-performance systems that can more easily sustain such close scrutiny. They may get overlooked as being mere “budget” cables by people with the sort of systems that don’t need to use cables as tone controls or as filters on their sound to smooth over or cover up upstream flaws. That’s a shame, but it’s their loss.

*Conclusion*
 For me, the Grovers prove that top-level performance when it comes to cables does NOT need to cost several grand to achieve. They just shame all the other cables I’ve ever owned especially when you factor in price. The Ultimate Reference cables are in my top 10 audio purchases ever (which is saying a lot given the hundreds of pieces I’ve owned so far). I feel they’ve taken my system to a whole new level in almost every area, with one notable (or un-notable) exception. 

 In re-reading all my notes about their sound, and pondering it some more, one thing struck me—in all my rantings and ravings, I made no comments about the Grovers’ bass performance one way or the other. Compared to my previous cables, the Virtual Dynamics References, the Grovers lack a smidge of the solidity and warmth the VDs impart. That’s not to say the Grovers have “bad” bass response, it’s extremely tuneful and defined. It’s anything but one-note bass. But the VD cables add an extra foundation and firmness to the bass that the Grovers miss. Is that a coloration of the VDs that the Grovers just don’t have? Or is that a minor shortcoming of the Grovers? I don’t have the answer. In any case, it obviously didn’t bother me particularly because I never wrote a disparaging comment about the bass, although I didn’t rhapsodize about it either. 

 In any case, if your system is lacking in bass, the Grovers probably won’t make up that deficit. If your system is harsh or grainy or edgy, the Grovers won’t round off the edges for you, and make it sound tame and polite. System matching is essential with these, I’m not sure they belong in every audio chain. They may just tell you something about your system you don’t want to hear.

 For everyone else-- way recommended!


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## DarkAngel

Just think of all the money you could have saved if you had Grover UR cables years ago.......time to exit the cable merry-go-round! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 BTW you can contact Grover directly and tell him what you want to buy and he will reply quickly with info:

*groverhuffman@hotmail.com*


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## adhoc

but argh - you've let out our secret! now _everyone_ will want grover ICs! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 fwiw though, is this UR ver1 or ver2?


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## Audio Addict

I just had my UR II upgraded by Groover and the according to him, the latest version uses silver and copper.


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## markl

Quote:


 fwiw though, is this UR ver1 or ver2? 
 

 As far as I know, it's the latest and greatest, I received it near the end of June. At that time, he told me these wre the "new" version. But it could have changed again since then, no idea. I'll ask Grover to verify which version I got.


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## markl

Yes, Grover has confirmed my URs are the new copper/silver hybrids.


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## MonkeyButt

Great review. Well constructed and thought out. It was a fun read and my interest has peaked for buying these interconnects. Though you scared me a little with the warning about system matching since my rig is really mid-fi level. 

 One item that was not mentioned in the review was the degree of sibilance sound. Did you notice any faults in this area? 



 Related Observation: It seems like everyone who writes about these interconnects in different threads that I have come across had a sip of the Grover Cool-aid or something. Everyone writes about Grover like he is our audio savior or something. Don't get me wrong, I think I'm about ready for a taste myself!


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## markl

Hi MonkeyButt, If your source recording is sibilant, you will hear it. It's not gonna round that stuff off. If the source material is clean, you'll get a clean sound.


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## MonkeyButt

Gotcha. In essence, the Grovers tell it like it is. Any faults will be magnified just like the positives are enhanced. Am I reading you right?


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## markl

Exactly. And really, isn't that just about all you could ask of a cable?


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## recstar24

I just wanted to add in my 2 cents about Grover's service. I bought the older version of the UR from markl recently, and I asked Grover if there was a current version. He said that there was, how pleased he was to hear from me and make my acquaintance, and offered to send me a set of his new UR version, just like that! I sent him my address and got it the next week, he didn't ask for money or anything, just to listen to them and compare with his old version. He's awesome to say the least.


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## Gopher

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *recstar24* 
_I just wanted to add in my 2 cents about Grover's service. I bought the older version of the UR from markl recently, and I asked Grover if there was a current version. He said that there was, how pleased he was to hear from me and make my acquaintance, and offered to send me a set of his new UR version, just like that! I sent him my address and got it the next week, he didn't ask for money or anything, just to listen to them and compare with his old version. He's awesome to say the least._

 

Grover is a very friendly, amazing guy and has done something similar for me as well. He's my favorite person to deal with, bar none, in the hi fi biz.


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## adhoc

Grover just got back to me: the old URs are all silver, *BUT *the new URs have a hybrid silver/copper return.

 Upon receiving my enquiry regarding the new URs, Grover offered to _immediately _replace my cables for free! He even threw in free *international shipping*! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Tell me the man isnt a class act!


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## HugoFreire

Any pictures of those ICs?


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## sbulack

To allay anyone's fears that a mid-fi system will not sound good with the UR IC, both my computer audio and offline rigs have never sounded as AMAZING as they sound with the Grover UR IC. If you look at the modest components in my rigs, they are solid performers, but most definitely NOT high-end audio. I HAVE found that the UR brings out layers of subtlety in my recordings that I now hear easily that I either did not hear before the UR or had to listen with substantial effort to hear. At the same time, I have NOT found that the UR narrows the range of recordings that I enjoy. So, for me and my rigs, the UR has significantly increased the depth and subtlety of the sound that I am getting in ways that my ears greatly enjoy, without narrowing the selection of recordings in my collection that I enjoy listening to. The UR has been all upside for me.


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## ServinginEcuador

A typical MarkL review: well written, good reading, and worthwhile. Great job Mark! Makes me want to try a pair for myself. I'm always looking for something cheaper that allows me to sell off my more expensive stuff and pocket the difference. Sounds like these ICs are real winners, and this just reinforces that reputation.


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## MonkeyButt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sbulack* 
_To allay anyone's fears that a mid-fi system will not sound good with the UR IC, both my computer audio and offline rigs have never sounded as AMAZING as they sound with the Grover UR IC. If you look at the modest components in my rigs, they are solid performers, but most definitely NOT high-end audio. I HAVE found that the UR brings out layers of subtlety in my recordings that I now hear easily that I either did not hear before the UR or had to listen with substantial effort to hear. At the same time, I have NOT found that the UR narrows the range of recordings that I enjoy. So, for me and my rigs, the UR has significantly increased the depth and subtlety of the sound that I am getting in ways that my ears greatly enjoy, without narrowing the selection of recordings in my collection that I enjoy listening to. The UR has been all upside for me._

 

Assuming your message was prompted by my comment, thanks for the reassurance that it would not make my rig sound worse. I was beginning to worry that those ICs would bring out the underlying crapola of my system that I was totally unaware. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I have enough weak links that I would care not to expose . . .


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## psychogentoo

I can't wait to order a pair! Thanks for the great review! 

 How long did it take you to receive a pair upon ordering? I want to time it so that I receive them when I get my SCD-555ES back from sacdmods (hopfully I send it out monday for the mods).


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## Wmcmanus

Excellent review, Mark (as always). I'm going to order a pair myself... well, actually two (one balanced, and one single ended).


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## markl

Thanks everyone for the encouraging words. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


 How long did it take you to receive a pair upon ordering? I want to time it so that I receive them when I get my SCD-555ES back from sacdmods (hopfully I send it out monday for the mods). 
 

 Not sure what Grover's lead-time is these days, need to ask him directly. psychogentoo, the Grovers are really going to let you hear everything the 555ES Hot Rod has to offer. You'll really be able to hear what you paid for with those mods. Should be a killer system you'll have there. Cheers.


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## MonkeyButt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markl* 
_Not sure what Grover's lead-time is these days, need to ask him directly._

 

Not explicit but here's part of a message that Grover sent me today . . .

 "Turn around is fairly quick on RCA IC's. Best Regards, Grover"


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## DarkAngel

Just received package with my *Grover UR-2* cables, looks just like UR cables except label with Grovers name is now black with silver lettering..........it will take me a bit longer than normal to report findings since I have Bel Canto Dac being modded by RAM which will complicate things a bit.

 Will get photos up tomorrow.


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## MonkeyButt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DarkAngel* 
_Will get photos up tomorrow._

 


 Fantastic. Just ordered mine today. Can't wait to test these IC out based on the reviews . . . 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I hope my expectations are not too high . . . . . . .


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## KenW

Hmmm, I'm confused. Recently sent my SR into Grover for the UR upgrade and now there's a UR ver 2?? Mine have the black band with the name in silver but no directional arrow.

 Do I have the ver 1 or 2? How do I determine direction? Sheese, haven't had the new cables for any length of time at all and already there's a newer version out. Aaarrgghh!


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## MonkeyButt

KenW,

 I'm not sure about your question but I did ask Grover whether any new versions past the UR-2s were on the horizon before buying and he indicated no. 

 Not much help for you (unless you decide to upgrade again) but it gives the owners of the UR-2s peace of mind . . . . . at least for a little while . . .


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## KenW

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MonkeyButt* 
_KenW,

 I'm not sure about your question but I did ask Grover whether any new versions past the UR-2s were on the horizon before buying and he indicated no. 

 Not much help for you (unless you decide to upgrade again) but it gives the owners of the UR-2s peace of mind . . . . . at least for a little while . . ._

 

Funny in that he never mentioned a newer version when he had my SR cable a few weeks ago. Can't imagine such an upgrade from all silver to a hybrid would or could take place so quickly. Put in an email to him last night but still no word on where I stand. Guess my big concern is not knowing if the cables I have are directional or not. If they are, that would be a nice detail to know along with which way is which.

 Anyway, thanks for the info. Guess the only person who can answer is Grover. I'm betting I've got ver 1 as I doubt he'd make the mistake of leaving off directionality indications. Upgrades are part of the journey I suppose but there's no way I'm going to try and keep pace.


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## DarkAngel

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *KenW* 
_Hmmm, I'm confused. Recently sent my SR into Grover for the UR upgrade and now there's a UR ver 2?? Mine have the black band with the name in silver but no directional arrow.

 Do I have the ver 1 or 2? How do I determine direction? Sheese, haven't had the new cables for any length of time at all and already there's a newer version out. Aaarrgghh!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





_

 

Wait Ken is right.......new UR-2 with black label just received does *not* have direction arrow, I stand corrected.

 Grover UR-1 cable with white label did have direction arrow under Grovers name, but previous Grover cables did not. I suspect arrow is just reminder when removing cable to re-install same direction. On previous Grover SR cables I made tag to mark which way I installed cable so when removing I could keep same direction as broken in.

*Monkey*
 Please correct my quote in your post and remove term "direction arrow" from quote


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## DarkAngel

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DarkAngel* 
_Just received package with my *Grover UR-2* cables, looks just like UR cables except label with Grovers name is now black with silver lettering..........it will take me a bit longer than normal to report findings since I have Bel Canto Dac being modded by RAM which will complicate things a bit.

 Will get photos up tomorrow._

 

Newest version Grover UR-2 Cables









 For Reference old Grover UR-1 Cables


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## DeeJayBump

*DarkAngel* -

 Thanks for the pics.

 I think the pics answer my question about which version I have. My current URs are just as pictured, and the ones they replaced were the ones with the white heatshrink and direction arrows. 

 Hopefully there will be no further revisions for a while so that those of us with the current version can enjoy them, and others can upgrade to the current version if they choose to do so.


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## RnB180

Just a question, with the upgrades, what was revised in the newest version?


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## recstar24

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *RnB180* 
_Just a question, with the upgrades, what was revised in the newest version?_

 

I think he uses a copper for the return, and silver for the conductor, dont quote me on that


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## RnB180

no comment


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## markl

That's what mine look like, too.


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## DeeJayBump

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *RnB180* 
_does he have a website?_

 


 No website that I'm aware of. You have to contact him through email at:

groverhuffman@hotmail.com

 He generally replies back within a day.


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## adhoc

DA,
*
 um, the UR1s i had (shipped 6/6) which Grover asked me to send in looked exactly like your UR2s.* 

 I would recommend you ASK GROVER before coming to any conclusion regarding the status of your URs.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *recstar24* 
_I think he uses a copper for the return, and silver for the conductor, dont quote me on that 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

it's silver for the conductor, and a silver-copper hybrid for the return.


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## DarkAngel

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *adhoc* 
_DA,
*
 um, the UR1s i had (shipped 6/6) which Grover asked me to send in looked exactly like your UR2s.* 

 I would recommend you ASK GROVER before coming to any conclusion regarding the status of your URs._

 

That does make it more confusing if there are black label UR1's 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But at least we know from your post that UR2 version was being sold "sometime" after 6/6/05. Perhaps Grover can post here and give more exact time when UR2 models were first sold/shipped for anyone who wishes to upgrade.

 BTW I don't think Mark was able to compare UR1 vs UR2 to determine that he actually prefers UR2 (he did compare to older SR II) so first order of business for me is to compare both URs and see which I like best.


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## Gopher

DA,

 I recently recieved a trio of the latest version and my bands do not match up with yours. The white/black is NOT an accurate way to decipher between the older and new URs. I've emailed grover asking if there is an accurate way--we'll see what he says.


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## Gopher

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Grover* 
_Fred yes you have the newest cables I just upgraded the cables you sent me,
 did'nt see any reason to change the bands._

 

Talked to Grover today and the bands do not signal versions.


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## Sean H

Thanks to Markl for this nice review.


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## Kieran Comito

Great review Mark. Thanks. Grover is a class act to deal with and his interconnects are stellar. Right now I only have the interconnects connecting my vinyl setup to my amp, but I plan on outfitting my whole systems with his interconnects.


----------



## euclid

how can you ignore this level of enthusiasm?

 i just sent grover an email


----------



## MonkeyButt

Here's a related question regarding placement of Grover's ICs:

 I just ordered one pair of Grover ICs and they will be arriving later this week. I also just purchased a GS-1 headphone amp as well. Where should I place the Grovers? Between the cd player and the amp OR between the amp and the headphone amp?

 Here is my cuurent/future setup: Onix XCD-88 CD Player with Mod level 1 -> Jolida 1501RC (hybrid integrated amp) -> Headamp GS-1 -> 650s with Zu mobius

 The current IC between the cd player and amp is the Twisted Pair II by Element cable (Solid bare copper terminated with the Bullet Plug)

 It seems like the best place is to connect them between the Jolida and the and Jolida so that the Grovers will hit my speakers (Paradigm Studio 60s v3) and headphone amp - but maybe not.

 Thoughts anyone? And lets assume right now that I will not be purchasing any more Grovers in the near future


----------



## DarkAngel

*Mr Monkey*
 Sounds like you are using the tape outputs of Jolida Integrated amp to your headphone amp........I would put best pair of ICs (Grovers 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ) between CDP and integrated to preserve quality of source signal, once signal is degraded can never be improved downstream..........solution get two pair of Grover UR2 if you like them.

 I am still on hold with my UR2 impressions since system still in the middle of upgrade cycle with gear.........will report in near future.


----------



## MonkeyButt

DarkAngel,

 Thanks for your comments. That makes perfect sense. Of course, I knew someone would just suggest that I buy another pair of Grovers to cover all links in the setup.

 To tell you the truth, I'm trying to make a faithful effort to stop the upgrading maddness! Can't all my current parts just get along!


----------



## markl

I agree with DA, should be attached to your source. It's too bad you don't have a direct connection from CD player to headphone amp.


----------



## Gopher

Yeah, I think these guys hit the nail on the head as far as where the grovers should fall. 

 One alternative suggestion I might make is getting a good RCA spliter (should you elect to get a second pair of ICs) and send the CDP directly to both amps. Make sure to get a good one though as I could hear a depreciation with quality with the Radioshack ones I once used.

 FYI I used some early Grover ICs with my 1501RC and they worked well together--come to think of it I even used a Gilmore V.2. back then on a tape loop (but with a crappy outlawl cable going to the headamp).


----------



## MonkeyButt

I thought splitting the signal was just a bad idea to begin with? Is there a ‘good’ splitter out there that does not degrade the signal?


----------



## markl

Seems to me splitting the signal might be even worse than routing the signal through a pre-amp?


----------



## Gopher

I haven't encountered a splitter that doesn't degrade the signal. When I posted about my findings with a Radioshack RCA splitter I was led to believe those results were typical with that splitter and it was asserted that better splitters (I think Vampire was mentioned) don't display those symptoms. *shrug* I never explored it further--just an idea.


----------



## MonkeyButt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Gopher* 
_I haven't encountered a splitter that doesn't degrade the signal. When I posted about my findings with a Radioshack RCA splitter I was led to believe those results were typical with that splitter and it was asserted that better splitters (I think Vampire was mentioned) don't display those symptoms. *shrug* I never explored it further--just an idea._

 

Fair enough. Appreciate your input. Maybe sometime in the future I can buy an external DAC and circumvent the whole issue.

 If I had the money right now to purchase a DAC1 and another pair of Grover ICs, I would be one happy audiocamper


----------



## euclid

i think the gs1 is a preamp as well

 id run the cables from the onix to the gs1, use the gs1 as preamp and then run another set out of the gs1 to power amp, bypassing the integrated function if possible.

 you could always sell the jolida integrated and buy a dedicated 2 chanel or monoblocks. im sure the gs1 is a better preamp.


----------



## BANGPOD

Markl, et al --

 Why has Grover not created an Ultimate Reference power cable?
 I want to completely cable my future system with Grover UR...
 But not having a power cord to pair with the IC is stopping me.

 Does anybody know?

 BANGPOD


----------



## markl

Bangpod, I asked him the *exact* same thing. I would LOVE a Grover power cord! He told me he just doesn't have enough time to devote to designing and testing one, his current product line keeps him busy. We can dare to dream, though...


----------



## MonkeyButt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *euclid* 
_i think the gs1 is a preamp as well

 id run the cables from the onix to the gs1, use the gs1 as preamp and then run another set out of the gs1 to power amp, bypassing the integrated function if possible.

 you could always sell the jolida integrated and buy a dedicated 2 chanel or monoblocks. im sure the gs1 is a better preamp._

 

The Jolida does not have an input to bypass the preamp so that won't work. However, SACD Lover (via pm) offered a similar suggestion that fixed everything and gave me something that I thought would cost me a lot to do (e.g., running optical out to an external DAC to the headamp) without hurting the signal along the way like using a splitter or the tape out does. 

 He simply pointed out to my technically challenged-self "why don't you just run a connection from the loop out on the GS-1 to the Jolida." Or CD Player -> IC -> Headamp GS-1 -> IC -> Jolida 1501RC -> speakers. I thought, duuuuuuuh, yep, that seems logical, why didn't I think of that? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Idiot. But even better, the loop out is passive so the GS-1 does not even have to be on for the connection to work between the GS-1 and the Jolida. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 This simple fix was just staring at me all along. I feel so stupid not realizing that this option was there. Oh well. Now I'm just waiting for my Grovers to get here so I can link the cd player to the GS-1. I thought they would have arrived yesterday but no go. I really hope they come today . . .

 But lets hear it for SACD Lover for fixing my issue without costing me a freakin' dime!


----------



## ken36

Outstanding thread.


----------



## Cableguy

I have enjoyed Grover's UR-1's for several months now and have been extremely pleased with their performance in my systems. However, after reading this thread I decided I had to try the UR-2's so I shot Grover an email last week. Since we live in the same area so he stopped by Sat. to drop off the new IC's. We listened to them on both the SDS-T and the Maestro ZR. The IC's sounded incredible, especially on the SDS-T. They were a little bright on the Maestro, but he said to give them about 10 hrs of break in time and the brightness should settle down. BTW, the IC's he brought were not UR-2's, but were his new UR -3's!! Even he admitted that there was hardly any room left for improvement and after listening to them for several hours this weekend, I would have to agree. But you never know with Grover


----------



## DarkAngel

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Cableguy* 
_I have enjoyed Grover's UR-1's for several months now and have been extremely pleased with their performance in my systems. However, after reading this thread I decided I had to try the UR-2's so I shot Grover an email last week. Since we live in the same area so he stopped by Sat. to drop off the new IC's. We listened to them on both the SDS-T and the Maestro ZR. The IC's sounded incredible, especially on the SDS-T. They were a little bright on the Maestro, but he said to give them about 10 hrs of break in time and the brightness should settle down. BTW, the IC's he brought were not UR-2's, but were his new UR -3's!! Even he admitted that there was hardly any room left for improvement and after listening to them for several hours this weekend, I would have to agree. But you never know with Grover 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

No No Nooooooooooooooo..........I haven't even been able to listen to my new UR2 yet because of equipment upgrades, Grover is on a roll


----------



## MonkeyButt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Cableguy* 
_BTW, the IC's he brought were not UR-2's, but were his new UR -3's!!_

 

Ya know, I just asked him a couple weeks ago whether there was something in development and he answered that change was at a much slower pace or in essense, no, at least thats how I took it. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I wonder what version were sent to me . . . I think an e-mail to Grover is in order . . .


----------



## markl

I might be getting a review sample of the UR-3, but I would like to say that there's absolutely nothing wrong with UR2 as far as I'm concerned, anyway. I'm actually kind of anxious about the new revision, I would hate for it to deviate too far from the magical UR-2. Hard to imagine what could be improved, maybe a little more bass ooooomph, but that's it. We'll see...


----------



## MonkeyButt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MonkeyButt* 
_Ya know, I just asked him a couple weeks ago whether there was something in development and he answered that change was at a much slower pace or in essense, no, at least thats how I took it. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I wonder what version were sent to me . . . I think an e-mail to Grover is in order . . ._

 

Whew. I have the UR3s - thank goodness (to put it PC like).


----------



## palchiu

What!!! UR-3... I miss something...

 BTW, any one try cryo'd Grover IC's ???


----------



## DarkAngel

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *palchiu* 
_What!!! UR-3... I miss something...
 BTW, any one try cryo'd Grover IC's ??? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I have been toying with idea of getting some Grover's cryo treated. Place called Audio Nut will do it for $20 a pair of ICs:
Cryo 

 If I do send off for Cryo will also try to Cryo some Absolute AC cords I have laying around......not sure what the turnaround time is?????


----------



## MonkeyButt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DarkAngel* 
_I have been toying with idea of getting some Grover's cryo treated. Place called Audio Nut will do it for $20 a pair of ICs:
Cryo 

 If I do send off for Cryo will also try to Cryo some Absolute AC cords I have laying around......not sure what the turnaround time is?????_

 

Alright, now you have sparked my interest. What the 'bleep' is cryo and what are its benefits? Has anyone tried this process before?


----------



## WK446

Cryo = cryogenic treatment (deep freezing)

 Cryogenic treatment is supposed to increase the conductivity of metals at a molecular level.

 Some companies offer this treatment already (interconnects, power cables, power outlets, etc...)


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MonkeyButt* 
_Alright, now you have sparked my interest. What the 'bleep' is cryo and what are its benefits? Has anyone tried this process before?_


----------



## DarkAngel

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MonkeyButt* 
_Alright, now you have sparked my interest. What the 'bleep' is cryo and what are its benefits? Has anyone tried this process before?_

 

A carefully controlled treatment using liquid nitrogen or similar to bring objects near absolute zero temperature, then controlled warmimg back to room temperatures. Changes metal properties, used in many special industrial applications of high performance metals in addition to audio cables. Some say gives smoother more detailed sound from metal audio cables.......also search Audiogon and Audio Aslyum forums for discussions.

 Some high end cables are already cryo treated by manufaturer.


----------



## MonkeyButt

Got it. But have you guys actually heard definitive results?


----------



## DarkAngel

Virtual Dymanics cables are all Cryo treated, they actually purchased an expensive cryo unit to treat all cables sold.

 I have VD Nite AC cords which sound great but have no reference since they are all sold cryo treated........not sure what improvements it makes but VD feels it is so necessary they purchased expensive unit to cryo in house. 

 If you are really curious check the other forums for discussions of cryo treatment, here is another cheaper Cryo place mentioned at Audiogon with more background info on process:

Cryo


----------



## MonkeyButt

Maybe a message should be sent to Grover to ask him what he thinks about the process used on his cables. Maybe he has tried it out on a pair and can tell us if its worth it or not . . . . . .


----------



## markl

No no no! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 We just got a UR3, now you people want a UR4? How are we supposed to keep up?


----------



## eyeteeth

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markl* 
_No no no! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 We just got a UR3, now you people want a UR4? How are we supposed to keep up? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

It's time for a renaming? Dump with the inevitably understood limit-has-been-reached 'Ultimate Reference'. This is a word of mouth product, how important is it's name anyway. One persons system may benefit from #2 more than #3, so dump the numbers? Colours? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 "I find topaz (#2) just a little brighter than Marine (#3) but that suits my darkish amp best".


----------



## markl

Yeah, depending on how the UR3 does, we may have to start calling the UR2, the "Penultimate Reference".


----------



## ssportclay

I am for keeping the interconnects hooked to my system while they are still in the liquid nitrogen. Warming them to room temperature is a big mistake.


----------



## DarkAngel

Upgraded gear in place and *Grover UR2* break-in begins today.

*About Cryo cable treatments.....*
 I think I will hold off for now, although cost is very reasonable there is some debate at different forums about whether it is 100% positive effect. Some like it, some say sounds about the same, some say if not done right can actually make sound worse 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 In any event regardless of final sound the cables must be shipped off for period of time, then when returned broken-in once again since the metal itself has been changed which is a hassle I don't enjoy.


----------



## markl

My UR3's arrived today (thanks Grover). I'm burning them in. The thing is, I've also just received some new power cords I'm auditioning (still haven't licked the power cord "problem" yet), so I'm not completely controlling my variables WRT the Grover ICs. Some % of change I report may be due to new power cabling (which couldn't possibly be worse than the last power cord I auditioned, ouch did that one suck). Having gone through 6 sets of new power cords so far since getting the Grovers, I'll probably do a write-up of those travails as soon as I can find the right ones to complement the Grovers. 

 I hate to start the burn-in process all over again, but oh well. I did find there are definite improvements even after 100-150 hours with the UR2. They definitely have a break-in period, though they sound great straight out of the box, nothing much radical changes, they just get even better at what they do.

 Anyway, may have some comments later tonight, depending on how much time I have. Later!


----------



## markl

First impressions of UR3:

 -- Hello BASS! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 -- Even blacker background

 -- "Crisper" sharper sound

 -- More forward, meatier sound, more presence

 -- I had to check the volume on my rig, as it seems to have gone up a couple db. Volume is still where it was. Weird.

 Like I said, I'm auditioning some new power cables today as well. I *suspect* that at least *some* of the extra bass I'm hearing is due to the new cords (but who knows?), because so far I've found power cabling effects bass more than IC cables. I can say, though, that I've never heard so much bass info coming through the Grovers as I am now, how ever it got there-- didn't hear it through all the other power cords I've been auditioning in the last couple months anyway. It's chunkier, firmer, and goes lower now. 

 Sound is also grittier and grainier. I attribute that to the new power cords as the other Grovers I've tried were anything but grainy. The new power cords have an especially long break-in period according to the manufacturer and reports on the net. 

 More impressions to follow.


----------



## DarkAngel

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markl* 
_First impressions of UR3:
 More impressions to follow._

 

What do they look like compared to UR2 & UR1?

 What AC cords have you tried recently?


----------



## markl

DA, they look the same as the UR2's on the outside. If Grover gives me the OK, I'll reveal what was changed in the UR3. If it's proprietary, I don't want to spill the beans.

 I'll be working on a comparative review of all the cables I've tried as soon as I find a set that I really like and can live with. The new set might be those cables, but it's still too soon to know for sure. Sorry to leave you in suspense...


----------



## DarkAngel

OK Grover guys.....

 I am sending back UR2 cables to get new UR3 version, so no UR2 impressions 

 Also sent UR1 cables off to get Cryo processed, will keep you updated.

 Who else has UR3 info to share besides Mark? 
 Isn't it time for Mark to update us on UR3?


----------



## eyeteeth

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DarkAngel* 
_Also sent UR1 cables off to get Cryo processed, will keep you updated._

 

*That's not going to cost much is it?*




 I thought cryogenic treatment has to take place some short time after initial metal processing and we're talking about increasing martensite in steel to increase it's strength for use in physically demanding applications? I don't think it does a thing for copper or silver?

 I realize this is a subjectivist's thread and I'm not trying to intrude on a good cable circle jerk...hey I'm a subjectivist as well (I do hear cable differences-I do not notice cable review differences though, "blacker backgrounds!" poetry contests), but well science shouldn't be completely avoided (like it's some sort of irrational bogeyman. Oh the irony! If I know my rational modern men like I think I do 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




). 

These dudes sell cryo treatment.


----------



## DarkAngel

*ET* 
 The cryo processing actually changes the molecular structure of metal, removes stess/fatigue/fracture areas introduced during forming/fabrication process of the metal part.

 Much info in that article is old science, no part is directly drenched in liquid gas today, since better cryo methods were developed. 
 Place where I sent cables does 3 day process:
 1st day - slowly cool down to final lowest cryo temperature
 2nd day - maintain lowest temperature to allow molecular change to fully occur.
 3rd day - slowly return to room temperature.

 Complete process is computer controlled in newest design cryo processors to acheive maximum benefits from process. Very cheap IMO at $15 for IC pair, the process is permanent so that is why I am starting out slowly with some back-up cables........if you don't like results you're stuck


----------



## eyeteeth

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DarkAngel* 
_$15 for IC pair, the process is permanent so that is why I am starting out slowly with some back-up cables........if you don't like results you're stuck_

 






 $15 isn't much to gamble and you've hedged your bet. 

 I have some Shunyata power cords which are cryo-ed which is fine but being a rascal I asked myself at the time of purchase why other high-end cable makers, some stratospherically priced, haven't bothered.


----------



## michaelhwolff

One might also ask themselves why none of the manufacturer's of amps, preamps, speakers, turntable arms, power conditioners, tote the use of cryogenic treatment in their products.


----------



## Kurt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *michaelhwolff* 
_One might also ask themselves why none of the manufacturer's of amps, preamps, speakers, turntable arms, power conditioners, tote the use of cryogenic treatment in their products._

 

You mean like that?
http://www.dodsonaudio.com/da218info.htm


----------



## michaelhwolff

Yep, now where did that manufacturer come from. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Got any more?


----------



## tom hankins

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *michaelhwolff* 
_Yep, now where did that manufacturer come from. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Got any more?_

 

I dont know if you would count tubes, but one of the upgrades the SE version of the Audio Aero Prima DAC uses are cryoed tubes as one of the upgrades.


----------



## PATB

Received my new "updated" UR (RCA) cables from Grover two weeks ago but only started critically listening to them last night. Initial impression is that the new URs seem to be warmer than the previous version. Still has the details, but the edge is gone. So much so that I put the Zu Mobius back to the HD650 and actually enjoyed the combo (I previously had problems listening to URs and Zu -- too bright for my taste).

 Thanks Grover!

 ---Pat


----------



## DeeJayBump

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PATB* 
_Received my new "updated" UR (RCA) cables from Grover two weeks ago...Initial impression is that the new URs seem to be warmer than the previous version. Still has the details, but the edge is gone. 

 ---Pat_

 

Damn. I have UR2s, and this (a slight brightness/lack of warmth with some discs) has been my only slight complaint with the URs. I guess I will have to get a pair of the newest versions as well.

 I might have my pair of UR2s cryo-ed so that I can compare them with the newest revision of the URs and see for myself if the cryo treatment makes a sonic difference to me.


----------



## DarkAngel

Gentlemen *UR3's* have just arrived........break-in has commenced.

 With all these different cables used in two stereo systems, plus headphone system, and home theater system I decided it was time to try this:

FryKleaner 

 I ordered the assembled board which is fine for ICs and price is very reasonable at $159. Feedback at AA and Audio Circle forums leads me to believe I need this to fully hear the potential of my IC cables and reduce time to break-in.

 Anyone using this or similar "cable cooker" device? How do you like it?


----------



## WK446

DarkAngel:

 I am using the FryKleaner Pro. It is a fine unit. Be sure to use to high output 2.5V setting, DIP switch in your case. I found that 80-100 hours on interconnects works best, save VH Audio Pulsars which have heavy dielectric - they were around 150-200 hours.

 Enjoy.
 Dennis
 P.S. Try to mount that circuit board in a box as soon as you can...

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DarkAngel* 
_Gentlemen *UR3's* have just arrived........break-in has commenced.

 With all these different cables used in two stereo systems, plus headphone system, and home theater system I decided it was time to try this:

FryKleaner 

 I ordered the assembled board which is fine for ICs and price is very reasonable at $159. Feedback at AA and Audio Circle forums leads me to believe I need this to fully hear the potential of my IC cables and reduce time to break-in.

 Anyone using this or similar "cable cooker" device? How do you like it?_


----------



## DarkAngel

WK
 Thanks for info on your FryKleaner findings.........I see from profile we have some common gear: Tyler speakers, Grover cables, Audio Mirror Dac, Stereovox HDXV etc.


----------



## WK446

DarkAngel:

 No worries. Great minds think alike! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			






  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DarkAngel* 
_WK
 Thanks for info on your FryKleaner findings.........I see from profile we have some common gear: Tyler speakers, Grover cables, Audio Mirror Dac, Stereovox HDXV etc._


----------



## DarkAngel

My $159 *FryKleaner* arrived today and is busy cooking a UR3 cable pair.

 In the meantime my other *Grover UR3* pair has broken in a couple days with just music and I have a handle on it.

 Let start by saying the UR2 was not really working too well for my taste, and cannot really say it was improvement vs UR1 in my system. The UR2 has a warmer fuller sound but also softer focus and less finely detailed and by comparison sounded less transparant vs UR1. Some peoples taste prefer this golden softer tone especially if they are trying to tonal shift existing system sound......so keep that in mind.

 The UR3 sounds like an evolution of UR1 with some subtle improvements or refinements, it is noticeably more detailed and faster sounding vs UR2 which I like. The soundstage produced was larger and more holographic a sure sign that subtle details are revealed that were not able to be resolved before. I am very happy with Grover's latest UR3 so far and feel it is equal or slightly better in every respect to UR1 while somehow sounding just a touch more naturally refined, it is very exciting to hear such a detailed realistic soundstage created in front of you that sound so natural........I will continue my experiments with cryo processing and Frykleaner treatment, will update as things develop, life is good, Grover has taken me a step closer to absolute sound 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 FYI - I do not use headphones to evaluate cables as they are severely limited in 3D soundstage reproduction, so keep that in mind......my stereo systems are listed in profile


----------



## grover

Guy's I'm leaving Aug 21 on my annual mountaineering expedition, so I'll be away from my computer until Sep.1. Therefore I'll be unable to respond to e-mail until then. Hopefully I'll be back.


----------



## adhoc

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *grover* 
_Guy's I'm leaving Aug 21 on my annual mountaineering expedition, so I'll be away from my computer until Sep.1. Therefore I'll be unable to respond to e-mail until then. Hopefully I'll be back._

 

all the best grover! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 have fun, *be careful* and thanks for being a real pleasure to correspond and deal with! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




_[and double thanks for shipping my cables out before your expedition.. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




]_


----------



## jp11801

damn just ordered yesterday, well better to wait then not get them

 have fun in your trip


----------



## DarkAngel

Although right now I prefer the UR3 & UR1 to the UR2 as mentioned above, I will put pair of UR2 on the *FryKleaner* and see if I can unlock some additional detail while retaining the warmer tonal balance before I completely give up on them.

 Sounds like *Grover* is off on a spiritual pilgrimage to meditate with the audio gods for inspiration of the ultimate cable.......UR4?????


----------



## DarkAngel

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DarkAngel* 
_Although right now I prefer the UR3 & UR1 to the UR2 as mentioned above, I will put pair of UR2 on the *FryKleaner* and see if I can unlock some additional detail while retaining the warmer tonal balance before I completely give up on them._

 

I will have to re-evaluate my impressions of UR2 after FryKleaner processing, has unlocked some additional detail from cable to make it more competitive with UR1/UR3......will post more soon. Here is pair of UR3 getting 48hr FryKleaner treatment:

FryKleaner


----------



## WK446

DarkAngel:

 If you don't already have some, you should pick up some female RCA-to-RCA adapters. Then you can hook up muliple pairs of interconnects (or coax digital cable) in series for cooking/burning. It makes things alot more efficient.

 Cheers,
 Dennis

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DarkAngel* 
_I will have to re-evaluate my impressions of UR2 after FryKleaner processing, has unlocked some additional detail from cable to make it more competitive with UR1/UR3......will post more soon. Here is pair of UR3 getting 48hr FryKleaner treatment:

FryKleaner_


----------



## DarkAngel

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *WK446* 
_DarkAngel:
 If you don't already have some, you should pick up some female RCA-to-RCA adapters. Then you can hook up muliple pairs of interconnects (or coax digital cable) in series for cooking/burning. It makes things alot more efficient.
 Cheers,
 Dennis_

 

OK sounds good, trip to local Radio Shack should produce adapter needed, then let the assembly line begin! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (I only have a few more pair of ICs but why waste time 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 )


----------



## stressnot

A couple of days ago, my arsenal of Grover cables (coaxial-digital, regular analog IC's, and speaker) arrived here like the Cavalry, to bring my dormant system to life. For better or worse, I'm burning them in the old-fashioned way (by playing them!), but the preliminary results are in: Stunning!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Over the last several months, thanks to a healthy tax refund 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 , I was able to make a number of major upgrades to my system -- all through used equipment purchases. From fellow Head-fi'er ted_b, I bought a Stealth headamp/preamp, and off of Audiogon, a Classe Audio DAC-1, as well as a pair of Paradigm Studio 100 speakers. As wonderful as these acquisitions were, however, up until now, I was unable to take full advantage of their sound-enhancing capabilities.

 Enter Grover. . . 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I've been using Grover cables for over a year now, starting with the beginning of the SR series, and have been a true believer for awhile. With each upgrade, there have been marked improvements, and so, my expectations for the new UR's were quite high. Still, as I write this, after only partial burn-in, what I hear sounds incredibly wonderful, and I'm thrilled with the level of clarity and realism!! At first, things sounded good and all, but at about the 18 hour mark, things really started to gel. These cables are ridiculously good!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	










 As far as the speakers go, I was planning on bi-wiring, using the SR cables for the hi end, and the UR's for the lo one, as Grover suggested. Unfortunately, in the process of trying to get all those wires into the little holes on my amplifier, I tore one of the connections loose on the SR's, and will need to have Grover fix it. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 In the meantime, however, the UR's by themselves sound fantastic, especially in the bass, which is deep and strong, yet tight and defined. I can hardly wait to hear the full bi-wire set-up! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Now, as for headphones, I have only my meager Grado SR325's to offer for analysis, but what a difference so far!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 In fact, thanks to my now, Grover-equipped Stealth, I have, at least for now, replaced my Todd flat-pads with the bowl pads I started with. As a result, I now hear all the hi's, but without the harshness, I would otherwise get. And the bass is deeper and airier, with much more resonance. Amazing! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Another great development is with my digital audio sounds (i.e., CD player & PC), as assisted by my now, Grover-equipped Classe Audio DAC-1. As far as the computer, I like to listen to broadband streaming audio. With the DAC-1, there is a vast improvement over what I got from my E-MU 1212m soundcard, making live music sound amazing! With my CD-player, using it as a transport for the DAC-1, especially with its HDCD capabilities, things are even more refined than with the CD-player alone (which also sounds great!).

 My third source is my modified Yamaha T-85 AM-FM tuner, complete with rooftop antenna. The Stealth had already catapulted the sound upward to audiophile dimensions, but assisted by the Grover UR's (by the way, based on when he actually sent them to me, I assume they're UR-3's, but Grover didn't actually say), the music sounds awesome (I've already run out of audio superlatives!. . . 

 Again, things are still burning in, and these are only preliminary impressions. With all of the cabling involved, it will undoubtedly take a lot more listening before things get just right. It's a grueling job, but someone's got to do it!!


----------



## adhoc

My UR3s have arrived.


----------



## palchiu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *adhoc* 
_My UR3s have arrived. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Pics, please!!!


----------



## DarkAngel

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *palchiu* 
_Pics, please!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

UR3 look exactly like UR2 photo in post #28


*Hey Mark*.........isn't it time for full update on UR3 vs UR2?


----------



## zdogg

Got my UR3's a couple of days ago. Beautiful sounding cable, and well made as well. Thanks you guys for the lowdown!

 There is of course no direction arrow on these later versions; I assume as long as you use the cable in the same orientation each time they should be fine (I let the signal run in the direction of the "Grover" letters).


----------



## markl

Quote:


 Hey Mark.........isn't it time for full update on UR3 vs UR2? 
 

 Hi DA. Still on the hunt for suitable AC cables. I've just ordered yet another set. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Fingers crossed. As soon as I get that nailed, I'll do the follow-up. Cheers.


----------



## markl

Well, another mystery IC has arrived too. First impression very favorable. This may delay the UR3 comments even further...


----------



## DarkAngel

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *zdogg* 
_Got my UR3's a couple of days ago. Beautiful sounding cable, and well made as well. Thanks you guys for the lowdown!

 There is of course no direction arrow on these later versions; I assume as long as you use the cable in the same orientation each time they should be fine (I let the signal run in the direction of the "Grover" letters)._

 

No arrows but you will notice that shrink tube label is closer to one end with the lettering also pointing to that end........I would just use that as signal output end whenever you move ICs, also you could put your own removeable tag/label to clearly establish direction when cables are moved.

 The *FryKleaner* has proven to be extremely effective tweak device and very cost effective, it has become essential item in my cable collection.


----------



## euclid

how do you know what version you are receiving if the ur3 look the same as the ur2?

 i ordered UR2 three weeks ago and havnt received anything yet, i just read that grover is away untill september first, should i expect the ur3 instead? 

 AHHHH i cant wait


----------



## DarkAngel

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markl* 
_Well, another mystery IC has arrived too. First impression very favorable. This may delay the UR3 comments even further... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I bet I know what the "mystery" cable is.......if it is what I suspect, then we have discussed another previous IC model and AC cords by Mr X 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Mr X makes fine products at higher price point so we should start another thread for his cable line when the secret is revealed.


----------



## markl

Oh I will, don't worry about that....


----------



## NotoriousBIG_PJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *euclid* 
_how do you know what version you are receiving if the ur3 look the same as the ur2?

 i ordered UR2 three weeks ago and havnt received anything yet, i just read that grover is away untill september first, should i expect the ur3 instead? 

 AHHHH i cant wait 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Yep, Grover is a perfectionist and will only sell his best design to date.

 Biggie.


----------



## adhoc

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *NotoriousBIG_PJ* 
_Yep, Grover is a perfectionist and will only sell his best design to date.

 Biggie._

 

I second that - when I sent in my UR1s expecting UR2s in return, he actually informed me that he would be delaying shipping so that I would receive UR3s instead. Grover is a class act imo.


----------



## euclid

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *adhoc* 
_I second that - when I sent in my UR1s expecting UR2s in return, he actually informed me that he would be delaying shipping so that I would receive UR3s instead. Grover is a class act imo. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 


 thats probiby why my order has taken so long to ship too. no complaints if the UR3 arrive instead.


----------



## DarkAngel

Any more UR3 or UR2 impressions?

 I have some *Cryo* treated UR1 back and on FryKleaner now cooking away.......be very interesting to hear what fully tweaked out Cryo/FryKleaned Grover UR1 sounds like


----------



## stressnot

After a little over a week with my new Grovers, I'm thrilled beyond my wildest dreams 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I had been intending to biwire my speakers, combining the UR cables with the SR's I already have. Unfortunately, I broke one of the SR connections within minutes of trying to connect it (very small holes, and no room to move!!), and now need to wait for Grover to fix it. In the meantime, though, the UR speaker cables by themselves are a great improvement over the SR's (which are no slouches!). The realism is breath-taking, and the bass, in particular, is spectacular!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It goes down really deep, but is tight, true, and resonant to the bones!

 Also, I haven't heard much talk about Grover's digital cables, but thought I'd try one. The results have been unbelievable!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Both my computer music and my PC player (via my Classe Audio DAC-1 & Stealth, now sound incredible. Up until now, I haven't really gotten to put my Stealth to the test, but with Grover's assistance, it really shines (both through my speakers, and my Grado SR325's -- with the Grados, I've even re-replaced my pads with the bowls!). And for those of you thinking of using the digital out on your computer to connect to an external DAC (rather than a USB connection), streaming audio never sounded better!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 More results, as I continue to hear them 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 . . . .


----------



## adhoc

*they sound good. *some sibilance i experienced with some songs with the UR1 is now *gone*. 

 fwiw, from memory, the UR3 seems marginally more flexible than the UR1.


----------



## Doc Sarvis

I stumbled on this thread, and am in the market for ICs.

 Still no report, DA?


----------



## DarkAngel

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DarkAngel* 
_In the meantime my other *Grover UR3* pair has broken in a couple days with just music and I have a handle on it.

 Let start by saying the UR2 was not really working too well for my taste, and cannot really say it was improvement vs UR1 in my system. The UR2 has a warmer fuller sound but also softer focus and less finely detailed and by comparison sounded less transparant vs UR1. Some peoples taste prefer this golden softer tone especially if they are trying to tonal shift existing system sound......so keep that in mind.

 The UR3 sounds like an evolution of UR1 with some subtle improvements or refinements, it is more detailed and faster sounding vs UR2 which I like. The soundstage produced was larger and more holographic a sure sign that subtle details are revealed that were not able to be resolved before. I am very happy with Grover's latest UR3 so far and feel it is equal or slightly better in every respect to UR1 while somehow sounding just a touch more naturally refined, it is very exciting to hear such a detailed realistic soundstage created in front of you that sound so natural........I will continue my experiments with cryo processing and Frykleaner treatment, will update as things develop, life is good, Grover has taken me a step closer to absolute sound 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Well I returned my UR2 to Grover being fully satisfied that UR3 are better in my systems, if you need a cable that is slightly tonally rich and warm you may like the UR2 better.......but I find the greater detail of UR1 & UR3 work best for me.

 As said before the UR3 sounds like direct evolution of UR1, same family sound and tonality but just slightly more natural sounding while retaining same level of fine detail retrieval. For people who found UR1 just a touch thin or bright the UR3 could be just what you are looking for......although I thought the UR1 was close to neutral sounding myself.

 I mentioned before FryKleaner treatment extends/refines Grover capabilities further and is essential tweak for my ICs, also can report that Grovers IC design responds very well to cryo processing. My UR1 cables that are FryKleaned & Cryo processed have now surpassed the stock UR3 (much to my delight) so you know what is the next step for my UR3s ........ 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




*Doc*
 No reason to hesitate for $140 pair, ask Grover about trail period if you are not sure


----------



## euclid

grover sent me email today formally telling me of his vacation. to my delight he also said the UR3 is shipping instead of the UR2.

 im tempted to order vhaudio pulsar for comparison, does anyone have impressions of these two? i need order another powercord anyway and the opportunity to combine shipping cost always weakens my willpower.


----------



## DarkAngel

*Grover UR4*
 Since Grover has returned from vacation he has developed a newer IC design, the Grover UR4. All I know is that is has more silver content and more variation of wire guages vs past UR designs, here are photos:

UR4 -1 
UR4 - 2 

 Also notice Grover is now ending the confusion of which model IC you own by marking next to his signature (Not sure why it says U4, perhaps not enough room?) I have cooked some for 48hrs on FryKleaner and will give serious listen today on stereo system (not headphones).

 This constant upgrading may seem confusing and a bit frustrating but remember Grover offers very good deal to upgrade old cables to newer models and charges low price for purchase of new cables.......


----------



## Jon L

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DarkAngel* 
_*Grover UR4*
 Since Grover has returned from vacation he has developed a newer IC design, the Grover UR4. All I know is that is has more silver content and more variation of wire guages vs past UR designs, here are photos:

UR4 -1 
UR4 - 2 

 Also notice Grover is now ending the confusion of which model IC you own by marking next to his signature (Not sure why it says U4, perhaps not enough room?) I have cooked some for 48hrs on FryKleaner and will give serious listen today on stereo system (not headphones).

 This constant upgrading may seem confusing and a bit frustrating but remember Grover offers very good deal to upgrade old cables to newer models and charges low price for purchase of new cables....... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

Do you know which RCA plugs he uses and whether he'd be willing to use something else for upcharge? i.e. Eichmann silvers, WBT Nextgen silvers, Xhadow?


----------



## DarkAngel

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jon L* 
_Do you know which RCA plugs he uses and whether he'd be willing to use something else for upcharge? i.e. Eichmann silvers, WBT Nextgen silvers, Xhadow?_

 

The Grover RCA's are deceptively simple looking, not sure where he gets them as I have never seen them on other cables. But I suspect the small size low mass RCA that maitains large contact area is the best sound Grover can find for his price point....also notice he wraps small band of material around RCA which you can see under the shrink wrap.

 I have asked before about other RCAs, but he prefers his model. Keep in mind some of those you mention would be too expensive for ICs at this price point. If you purchase 4 of whatever RCAs you want and send them to Grover he might make a custom pair for you....who knows????? Send him an email:
groverhuffman@hotmail.com

 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++

 I did some listening and the UR4 advances Grovers design by greater % increase than any of the previous UR models for me, just to give some perspective of UR models:

 UR1 - baseline, tremendous pereformance at price point
 UR2 - no real improvement for my systems, warmer sound tone however
 UR3 - 10% small but noticeable improvement over UR1
 UR4 - 25% larger more pronounced overall improvement over UR1

 I am trying to be somewhat conservative here because the UR1 establishes a very high base level performance at this price cable (and quite a bit higher) As people quickly find out it is very hard and often very expensive if you have a product that is say 80% of SOTA to move up small amout to 85% or 90% and that money can often be better spent on other areas of audio system besides cables........fortunately Grover gives great performance for the money.

 My evauation process of cables and other audio gear involves only listening to a few different songs I have heard 100+ times, I know from memory any subtle detail or soundstage neuance.........the fine detail presentation and soundstage characteristics of UR4 are easliy the best Grover has acheived to date, all the enhancements flow naturally with no real weakness. All tonal ranges seem fairly balanced with enhanced detail throughout the total range, bass extends deep and controlled with nice detail, treble is extended and finely textured etc.

 Those of you that have any Grover cables this is good time to upgrade old model because this is Grovers biggest step forward, not sure if ICs (even Grover) really can get significantly better at this price point. There are of course tweaks like FryKleaner & Cryo Processing........ 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I noticed that Chris VenHaus now offers upscale Symmetry ICs at $699 as next step up! The VH Pulsar was probably the most competitive IC to Grover at this price, but the UR4 should give Grover further edge over similar price competitiors.


----------



## markl

I took a sneak peak at my UR4s (about an hour this morning), I don't really have much time to listen in near future, may not get to a full eval for a while, too much going on. They still need burn-in, too. Quick impressions:

 I agree with DA. This is one of the bigger advances I've heard in the Grover line. Here's how I'd rank them:

 SR2 vs. UR1 (had directional arrows). Not a step up in my opinion, I actually preferred the SR2. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 UR1 to UR2. Now we're talking! UR2s are marvelous and are the ones I wrote about at the start of this thread.

 UR2 to UR3. At first I thought I detected a difference, but DBT-boys would be happy to know that after a while I wasn't sure I could reliably do it blind if I had to. *Maybe* a little warmer than UR2, *maybe* a bit more bass. Subtle upgrade or maybe sideways step to my ears.

 UR3 to UR4. First off-the-cuff impression: equivalent to the step up between the SR2 and the UR2, which is a nice worth-while advance for me. This has a different sound to it, need time to fully identify what's going on, but so far I like it, I have a positive impression. Bass is definitely improved, that I can say for certain. 

 More to follow in a week or so, please bear with me.


----------



## adhoc

ugh - another upgrade??! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 sigh, this really sucks for us overseas customers. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 anyway, fwiw, grover has mentioned to me previously that his connectors are 'vintage nickel'. yes, this was told to me all the way back at UR1, but cosmetically the connectors appear to have not changed at all.


----------



## recstar24

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DarkAngel* 
_
 I noticed that Chris VenHaus now offers upscale Symmetry ICs at $699 as next step up! The VH Pulsar was probably the most competitive IC to Grover at this price, but the UR4 should give Grover further edge over competitiors._

 

I actually had the wonderful opportunity of being a beta-tester for Chris' new symmetry connect before it came out. In my humble opinion, it was the closest thing to a "perfect" interconnect I had ever heard and was in a whole other league above the Grovers, but of course so is the price tag


----------



## DarkAngel

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DarkAngel* 
_I did some listening and the UR4 advances Grovers design by greater % increase than any of the previous UR models for me, just to give some perspective of UR models:

 UR1 - baseline, tremendous performance at price point
 UR2 - no real improvement for my systems, warmer sound tone however
 UR3 - 10% small but noticeable improvement over UR1
 UR4 - 25% larger more pronounced overall improvement over UR1
 FryKleaner + Cryo Processing - 15% improvement over any untreated UR model 
 (ie UR4 FryKleaned & Cryo increases to 40% improvement)_

 

In case you are new reader to Grover cable threads and want some idea how these stack up for me against well known more expensive competition 2-3 years ago I owned/sold off all the following ICs which were eventually surpassed by Grover UR:

 AZ Silver Reference
 AZ Matrix
 AP Solo Crystal
 AP Silver Oval
 HomeGrown Silver Lace
 Cardas Golden Cross
 Silver Audio Hyacinth

 Now own only Wolff, Grover, Bogdan IC cables.....


----------



## gpalmer

DA, can you compare them to your memories of the AZ Silver Ref? I'm looking for cables for my mobile system right now.


----------



## Audio Addict

Has anyone else had a chance to listen to the new improved UR4s? I had upgraded my UR3 to UR4s but Grover contacted me last weekend and indicated he had another update and would I want to give them a try. How could I resist!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 I just received them yesterday and let them burn in for all of three hours before having to listen. My initial reaction is this is not just an incremental version upgrade, it is a substantial improvement. The timber of music and the soundstage have become real strengths of this cable. Obviously this is only an initial reaction and your mileage could easily vary.


----------



## DarkAngel

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gpalmer* 
_DA, can you compare them to your memories of the AZ Silver Ref? I'm looking for cables for my mobile system right now._

 

For a couple years the AZ Silver Ref was my "reference", it replaced several other silver cables I had collected at the time including:
 HT ProSilway II
 Silver Audio Hyacinth
 HomeGrown Silver Lace

 I found the AZ had a richer more natural musical sound other silver cables could not acheive while still preserving the speed and fine detail of silver. The AZ SR was very expensive and even at used Audiogon price of $400 was more than I have ever spent on single pair of ICs so could not envision buying multiple pairs to fully cable my two systems.

 During the time Grover was going from SR II --> UR1 cables I previously considered Grover a nice alternative IC to save money in less critical applications. Later when doing some actual head to head comparisons between Grover UR and AZ Silver Ref I found no trade off and actually gave slight edge to Grover overall.......then add much cheaper price and smaller more flexible design and AZ was soon sold. So if you really like AZ SR then I see no reason why Grover UR4 would not also appeal to you, but everyone must make thier own decision on these things.

 I got almost same price as I paid used for AZ SR, and proceeds purchased several pair of Grover ICs


----------



## DeeJayBump

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Audio Addict* 
_Has anyone else had a chance to listen to the new improved UR4s? I had upgraded my UR3 to UR4s but Grover contacted me last weekend and indicated he had another update_

 


*Audio Addict-* 

 Are you saying that you previously had a pair of UR4, and now Grover has revised the UR cables for a FIFTH time? 

 Are your initial sonic impressions based on the UR4 or on a newer (fifth?) revision of these ICs?


----------



## markl

Quote:


 I just received them yesterday and let them burn in for all of three hours before having to listen. My initial reaction is this is not just an incremental version upgrade, it is a substantial improvement. The timber of music and the soundstage have become real strengths of this cable. Obviously this is only an initial reaction and your mileage could easily vary. 
 

 I have to agree. After having had a little more time with the new UR4, I can confirm what I first heard in my initial impressions a couple weeks ago. This is definitely one of the biggest jumps in performance that I've detected in my system with my ears from a Grover upgrade. It's even more natural-sounding, and bass is definitely firmed up, the sound overall has more weight to it. Highs are shimmery and clean as could be. The tone of the cable through the middle is even more pleasing to the ear. Definition, resolution and detail seem improved slightly as well.

 I think with some of Grover's upgrades, the incentive of going to the trouble and expense of sending it back to get it done, especially if it meant going without your music for a period of time, may not have been as strong as this. Then, on top of that, you have to go through the burn-in process again with the new cables, and all that can be an issue, especially if you were plenty satisfied with the Grovers you already had in the first place! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But I would say, that if you have an older UR, IMO, FWIW, it would be worth the disruption to get this particular upgrade. IMO, that's a strong endorsement, because I know that you know how hard and inconvenient all this cable-swapping can be, I think this one is good enough that it would outweigh all the fuss even for the most curmudgeonly. Yes, there is no doubt that Grover will shortly revise them again, that's just the way it works, so maybe in some cases, the best strategy after a while is to just stop reading Grover threads and just enjoy the Grovers you have! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 They're all simply lovely cables, you can't go wrong with any of them, IMO. 

 Cheers!


----------



## euclid

grover contacted me and said he's going to send the newest revision, he originally told me that these were the ur4 but he said he has a newer version of the ur4 now.


----------



## DarkAngel

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markl* 
_But I would say, that if you have an older UR, IMO, FWIW, it would be worth the disruption to get this particular upgrade. IMO, that's a strong endorsement, because I know that you know how hard and inconvenient all this cable-swapping can be, I think this one is good enough that it would outweigh all the fuss even for the most curmudgeonly. Yes, there is no doubt that Grover will shortly revise them again, that's just the way it works, so maybe in some cases, the best strategy after a while is to just stop reading Grover threads and just enjoy the Grovers you have! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 They're all simply lovely cables, you can't go wrong with any of them, IMO. 
 Cheers!_

 

Definitely owners of Grover UR1 & UR2 (or earlier) contact Grover about upgrade deal to UR4, you will not regret.

*AA & Euclid are correct........*
 There is an even newer update of UR4 out now, just got email today from Grover to confirm but no details as to what exactly has changed


----------



## elmoe

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markl* 
_Exactly. And really, isn't that just about all you could ask of a cable? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

No 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I recently got some BMC Pinnacle Gold interconnects which made my music more warm, melodic and full. I absolutly love the way they color the sound


----------



## bobeau

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *euclid* 
_grover contacted me and said he's going to send the newest revision, he originally told me that these were the ur4 but he said he has a newer version of the ur4 now._

 

Me too... and I didn't even buy the IC from him! I'm not sure if he saw the post in the classifieds or contacted the oringal owner and was forwarded my handle, but in any case he made the offer completely unsolicited. Wow.


----------



## Hirsch

OK, I bit. Took a look at my Grovers and still had the SR. Three pairs just went out for upgrade. I'll report back.


----------



## DarkAngel

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Hirsch* 
_OK, I bit. Took a look at my Grovers and still had the SR. Three pairs just went out for upgrade. I'll report back._

 

Just think if you sold one of those VD Revelation IC pairs used how many Grover UR4 cables you could buy 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Hirsch you have some *serious* money invested in audio now, the cable list alone makes my wallet sweat....


----------



## eyeteeth

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *adhoc* 
_ugh - another upgrade??! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 sigh, this really sucks for us overseas customers. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DarkAngel* 
_In case you are new reader to Grover cable threads and want some idea how these stack up for me against well known more expensive competition 2-3 years ago I owned/sold off all the following ICs which were eventually surpassed by Grover UR:

 AZ Silver Reference
 AZ Matrix
 AP Solo Crystal
 AP Silver Oval
 HomeGrown Silver Lace
 Cardas Golden Cross
 Silver Audio Hyacinth

 Now own only Wolff, Grover, Bogdan IC cables....._

 

I'll play a hand of devil's advocate just for some fresh thoughts. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The upgrade thing is looking awful. On one hand these cables are not yet ready for prime time? On the other hand you can't blame a guy for wanting to improve his product. But really get it together. If markl can't tell the difference blind between one upgrade and the other upgrade 2-3, then why waste the customer's time?

 Are there any headfiers who have heard half the cables out there in the $100-$200 range? Internet enthusiasts/amatuers raving about something is really a dime a dozen and essentially meaningless.
 New cable outfits seem to be poping up daily. Having heard a dozen over a four year period doesn't seem like much of a survey. 

 Acoustic Zen www.acousticzen.com 
 Actinote www.actinote.com 
 American Recorder Technologies www.americanrecorder.com 
 Analysis Plus www.analysis-plus.com 
 Apature www.apature.com 
 Argent Audio www.roomlens.com 
 Ascendant Cables www.ascendantcables.com 
 Audience www.audience-av.com 
 Audio Cables R Us www.audiocablesrus.com 
 Audio Magic www.audio-magic.com 
 Audio Metallurgy www.audiometallurgy.com 
 Audio Note www.audionote.co.uk 
 Audioquest www.audioquest.com 
 Aural Symphonics www.auralsymphonics.com 
 Avic Cable www.aviccable.com 
 Axiom Audio www.axiomaudio.com/cables.html 
 bdcable www.bdcable.com 
 Bear Labs www.bearlabs.com 
 Bertram Audio www.audiokabel.dk 
 Better Cables www.bettercables.com 
 Black Mountain Cable www.blackmountaincable.com 
 Blue Jeans Cable www.bluejeanscable.com 
 Blue Marble Audio www.bluemarbleaudio.com 
 The Bolder Cable Company www.boldercables.com 
 ByBee Technologies www.bybeetech.com 
 CablePro www.thecablepro.com 
 Cable Research Lab www.musicalsurroundings.com 
 Cardas Audio www.cardas.com 
 Cat Cables www.catcables.com 
 Cerious Technologies www.cerioustechnologies.com 
 Chimera Labs www.chimeralabs.com 
 The Chord Company www.chord.co.uk 
 Clear Audio www.clearaudio.de 
 Cobalt Cable www.cobaltcable.com 
 Coincident Speaker Technology www.coincidentspeaker.com 
 Crystal Cable www.crystalcable.com 
 Crystal Clear Audio www.crystalclearaudio.com 
 Decorp www.decorp.com 
 DH Labs www.silversonic.com 
 DiMarzio www.dimarzio.com 
 Discovery Cable www.discoverycable.com 
 DNM www.dnm.co.uk 
 Dope Sounds www.dope-sounds.de 
 Dynamic Design no website 
 Ecosse Reference Cable www.ecossecables.co.uk 
 Element Cable www.elementcable.com 
 Empirical Audio www.empiricalaudio.com 
 Ethereal www.etherealhometheater.com 
 Fadel Art www.fadelart.com 
 Furutech www.furutech.com 
 Goertz Alpha Core www.alphacore.com/goertz.htm 
 Golden Sound www.dhcones.com 
 Goldmund www.goldmund.com 
 Granite Audio www.graniteaudio.com 
 Guerilla Audio guerillaaudio.com 
 Gut Wire Audio Cables www.gutwire.com 
 Harmonic Technology www.harmonictech.com 
 Hamonix www.mayaudio.com 
 Herron www.herronaudio.com 
 Hovland www.hovlandcompany.com 
 Innersound www.innersound.net 
 Jena Labs www.jenalabs.com 
 JPS Labs www.jpslabs.com 
 Kas Audio www.kasaudio.com 
 Keeler Cables www.keelercables.com 
 Kharma www.kharma.com 
 Kimber Kable www.kimber.com 
 Kimer Select www.kimber.com 
 Krautwire www.krautwire.cz 
 Kubala-Sosna www.kubala-sosna.com 
 LAT International www.latinternational.com 
 Linn Products www.linn.co.uk 
 Luminous Audio Technology www.luminousaudio.com 
 Magnan www.magnan.com 
 Maple Audio Works www.mapleaudio.com 
 Marigo Audio Lab www.marigoaudio.com 
 Merlin Cables www.merlincables.com 
 Mogami www.mogamicable.com 
 Moon Audio www.moon-audio.com 
 Monster Cable www.monstercable.com 
 Music Interface Technologies (MIT) www.mitcables.com 
 Music Metre www.musicmetre.com 
 Nirvana Audio www.nirvanaaudio.com 
 Nordost www.nordost.com 
 NBS Audio Cables www.nbscables.com 
 Oehlbach www.oehlbach.com 
 Origin Live www.originlive.com 
 Outlaw Audio www.outlawaudio.com 
 Pear Cable www.pearcable.com 
 Phoenix Gold www.phoenixgold.com 
 PHY-HP www.phy-hp.com 
 PNF Audio www.pnfaudio.com 
 Poth Audio www.pothaudio.com 
 Prisma Cable www.artech-electronics.com 
 PS Audio www.psaudio.com 
 Pure Silver Sound www.puresilversound.com 
 Pure Note www.purenote.com 
 Pure Silver Connection www.pscaudio.com 
 Purist Audio Design www.puristaudiodesign.com 
 Q-Audio www.q-audio.com 
 R.E. Designs www.redesignsaudio.com 
 Revelation Audio Labs www.revelationaudiolabs.com 
 River Cable www.rivercable.com 
 RS Audio Cables www.rscables.com 
 Shinpy www.shinpy.com 
 Shunyata Research www.shunyata.com 
 Signal Group www.signalcable.com 
 Siltech Cables www.siltechcables.com 
 Silver Audio www.silveraudio.com 
 Silver Science www.silverscience.com 
 Silversmith Audio www.silversmithaudio.com 
 Slinkylinks www.slinkylinks.net 
 SonoCable www.sonocable.com 
 Soundstring Cable Technologies www.soundstringcable.com 
 Stager marc.stager.com/silver/ 
 Stealth Audio Cables www.stealthaudiocables.com 
 Stereovox www.stereovox.com 
 Straight Wire www.straightwire.de 
 Supra Cables www.tonianlabs.com 
 Synergistic Research www.synergisticresearch.com 
 Tara Labs www.taralabs.com 
 Tek Line Audio Cables www.teklineaudio.com 
 Totem Acoustic www.totemacoustic.com 
 Transparent Cable www.transparentcable.com 
 Tributaries www.tributariescable.com 
 Triphazer www.triphazer.com 
 TweekGeek www.tweekgeek.com 
 Ultralink www.ultralinkcables.com 
 Ultimate Sonics www.ultimate-sonics.com 
 Vampire Wire www.vampirewire.com 
 Van Den Hul www.vandenhul.com 
 VH Audio www.vhaudio.com 
 Virtual Dynamics http://virtualdynamics.ca 
 Vivid Audio http://vividaudio.net 
 Voba Acoustic www.voba-acoustic.com 
 Von Gaylord Audio www.vongaylordaudio.com 
 Wasatch Cable Works www.wasatchcableworks.com 
 Wireworld Cables www.wireworldaudio.com 
 XLO www.xloelectric.com 
 xtreme cables www.xtremecables.com 
 Yamamura www.yamamura.com 
 Zaolla www.zaolla.com 
 Zcable www.zcable.com 

 Are those even half that are out there?!
 I need to win a lottery in order to find out who has the best $100 IC! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I do differ a bit to pro reviewers who may have heard 80 pairs of cable and with multiple amps, sources, speakers, etc. The point being when will there be a pro review? I know that isn't everything either (ever read a bad cable review? No. They all "easily compete with cables costing four to five times as much"). 
RS Audio Cables $119 USD 1.5M _"fall short of Valhalla -- the finest cables I’ve ever used -- by a remarkably small degree, and only then in transparency and resolution."_ Anyone here heard these? I wonder how they compare to the UR (version 8? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 )? 

*I'm not entirely sure what my advice is or if I have any.* I guess take off the blinders? I know if I were to lay out $140 I'd probably up it to $200 and try the Oritek X-1 _"Yes, better than Valhalla, especially when presenting the impact of the leading edge of bass notes. The mids are warm and lucid on one hand and also focused and tactile on the other hand. Voices possess a convincing humanity. The highs, importantly, are clear, very open and extended, but in exactly the proper proportion required by the harmonic overtones to be realistic. The terms harsh or bright do not apply: the treble simply is what is required. In this area especially, X-1 is clearly superior to either Nordost cable. While the X-1 offers a more open and extended treble than Valhalla, there is no hint of any problem such as glare as a result."_
_"In a final comparison, I preferred the X-1s to my $1400 Jena Labs interconnects in most respects. The X-1s had more detail and liveliness, and the quality of their imaging was much higher"_

 Do I believe that? Do you? Will I try them? Probably, I'm a sucker too. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Maybe the differences between $30 and $3000 aren't that great? Yesterday I saw and spontaneously bought a $33 USD pair of Belkin PureAV Silver Series RCA Audio Cables  (an earlier online order fell through). How do they sound? Perfectly fine! Jumping back and forth between them and Grover 3? When the Grovers were on I prefered them, when the Belkin were on I prefered them. The Grovers sounded more refined and linear. The Belkin sounded more dynamic and expressive. The Grovers seemed muted, recessed, coloured or as fans say "smooth". The Belkin coarser, rougher, brighter, louder but only by a very small amount. They were also more open, extended, transparent, (subjectively honest). But like I said I'd put on the Grover and like it more...until I put on the Belkin. They each had merits I liked and weren't too far from each other.

 System dependant/personal preferences are all there.
 Where is the best place for a fella to toss his/her $30-$100-$200?
 Just food for thought. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 And yes I'm burning in the Belkin even though I'm not sure that makes any difference.

*"5. Do I need to “Break-In” my cables?

 No. At this time Pear Cable  is not aware of any changes in the characteristics of its cables as time elapses. While many manufacturers claim that break-in is necessary, Pear Cable believes that this phenomenon has more to do with psychological effects than physical effects."* 
 Egads a cable company that doesn't believe in break-in/burn-in! (They don't like handmade cables either) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Well I'm not ready for $1000 cables anyway!


----------



## markl

eyeteeth,
 I agree that cables are one of the most system-dependent components there are. These things are all a matter of taste, and "fit" within one's own system, just like with any other component discussed/reviewed and picked apart here endlessly on Head-Fi, is a totally dependent factor. What do you mean "Sennheiser veil" I don't hear it! What do you mean "Grate-os", they sound smooth and refined to me!  Quote:


 The upgrade thing is looking awful. On one hand these cables are not yet ready for prime time? On the other hand you can't blame a guy for wanting to improve his product. But really get it together. If markl can't tell the difference blind between one upgrade and the other upgrade 2-3, then why waste the customer's time? 
 

 I don't speak for Grover by any stretch, but I don't think this is his purpose at all. With Grover, what you have is a dedicated music fan with a small underground cable business who is always experimenting with subtle changes in his basic design. He is what he is, and his operation is what it is-- if you can't abide with the constant upgrades and it leaves you with too much fear, uncertainty and doubt-- don't buy! I've never heard a "bad" cable from him, he knows what good sound is, and is always striving to improve his offerings, sometimes these are small incremental upgrades, sometimes larger leaps. 

 He has new revisions or variations on his theme at a very frequent rate, that's for sure. For some, this can be interpreted as someone who can't make up his mind as to what his product should be, or to others as a guy who is never satisfied, but always trying new things, and offering them to the public if he feels they make an improvement over his previous incarnation. Maybe that's frustrating to some people, but then again, maybe that's to be applauded, maybe it's just great innovation and constant improvement, that's all in the eye of the beholder, IMO.

 I can tell you that Grover is a real gentleman, a true enthusiast, and great to work with. If you want a faceless company with one product that never changes, there are many options. And that's fair enough. 
  Quote:


 Are there any headfiers who have heard half the cables out there in the $100-$200 range? Internet enthusiasts/amatuers raving about something is really a dime a dozen and essentially meaningless. 
 

 I agree, it's impossible to take a full and complete survey of the cable market at any price point, but there's nothing anyone can do about that. But are you suggesting that *no one* is qualified to offer his opinion on any cable? With all the headphone amplifier choices now available, there is no one who could offer a "fully-informed" opinion on any headphone amp he/she might choose to review. No one has the time, patience or expense account to try all of the thousands of cables out there. All you have are people with their limited experience of the cable market to report on what they hear in their system, enthusiasts. It's "buyer beware" obviously, I certainly don't purport to present myself as the ULTIMATE cable authority, PERIOD. But as I listed at the start of this thread, I have heard around 30 different aftermarket ICs and the Grovers are very close to the top, with the Wolff cables being my current preference.

 I don't think any reviewer on Head-Fi represents him/herself as the messiah of the gear he reviews, all he/she can offer is his/her experience. It's not like readers of these reviews are naive children or total babes in the wood with no sense of anything. If you want to argue that everyone else on the site but you are total rubes and morons unable to think for themselves or interpret reviews they read here for what they are-- good luck with that! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 They are surely savvy enough to take them for what they are-- subjective impressions provided by other music-lovers for their *consideration* not to be taken as absolute FACT.

 I think there may be a mis-conception among some Head-Fiers that there is some sort of clandestine Head-Fi trust or clan who work secretly behind-the-scenes to elevate certain products to the fore, either innocently or for nefarious reasons. I've been around since day 1 and I've never seen any evidence that would support this conspiracy theory in the slightest. 

 What I so see, are a few hardy, dedicated, music-lovers who post their reviews on their own, un-prompted. Anyone is free to post their thoughts here on any piece of gear they buy, as you have done with the Grover Cables.

 But when one observes many experienced and inexperienced members all singing the praises of one piece of gear, be it a headphone, an amp, a source, or a cable, maybe that counts for something. Or, maybe it's just all placebo to some folks, or herd-mentality, to be dismissed at will. I can't make that decision for anyone.


----------



## eyeteeth

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markl* 
_With Grover, what you have is a dedicated music fan with a small underground cable business who is always experimenting with subtle changes in his basic design. 

 He has new revisions or variations on his theme at a very frequent rate, that's for sure. For some, this can be interpreted as someone who can't make up his mind as to what his product should be, or to others as a guy who is never satisfied, but always trying new things, and offering them to the public if he feels they make an improvement over his previous incarnation. Maybe that's frustrating to some people, but then again, maybe that's to be applauded, maybe it's just great innovation and constant improvement, that's all in the eye of the beholder, IMO.

 I can tell you that Grover is a real gentleman, a true enthusiast, and great to work with. If you want a faceless company with one product that never changes, there are many options. And that's fair enough.

 No one has the time, patience or expense account to try all of the thousands of cables out there. All you have are people with their limited experience of the cable market to report on what they hear in their system, enthusiasts.
_

 

I agree with all the above, although I don't think weekly updates are good for business. 

 I think most of the cable companies are small outfits even the bigger boys. Kimber is run by a guy named Ray I think. I assume he's a gentleman as well.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markl* 
_It's not like readers of these reviews are naive children or total babes in the wood with no sense of anything. If you want to argue that everyone else on the site but you are total rubes and morons unable to think for themselves or interpret reviews they read here for what they are-- good luck with that! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ._

 

No but I think there are quite a few who have a more skeptical eye/ear who might like to question or challenge but who feel intimidated or wonder if they'll be labeled a troll or troublemaker such. I do think a dissenting or tempering view can be a positive thing, even if it does look disruptive on the surface. Even what appears to be an unfair question can have benefits in arriving at a fair assessment. It's about arriving at that fair assessment, although I don't think I've been unfair.


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markl* 
_I think there may be a mis-conception among some Head-Fiers that there is some sort of clandestine Head-Fi trust or clan who work secretly behind-the-scenes to elevate certain products to the fore, either innocently or for nefarious reasons. I've been around since day 1 and I've never seen any evidence that would support this conspiracy theory in the slightest._

 

I don't think that. I chalk it up to the inability, as you've pointed out, to be able to fairly survey the products available.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markl* 
_But when one observes many experienced and inexperienced members all singing the praises of one piece of gear, be it a headphone, an amp, a source, or a cable, maybe that counts for something. Or, maybe it's just all placebo to some folks, or herd-mentality, to be dismissed at will. I can't make that decision for anyone._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markl* 
_What I so see, are a few hardy, dedicated, music-lovers who post their reviews on their own, un-prompted. Anyone is free to post their thoughts here on any piece of gear they buy, as you have done with the Grover Cables._

 

And I contribute as well in this regard with comparisons and questions (RS Audio, Belkin, Oritek). Comparisons, questions and attempts at reality checks, however successful or unsuccessful, are good things I think. We're all searching for our own personal ultimate reference at various given price points.


----------



## pabbi1

OK, I bit, even though I need a new source more than the IC (both won't hurt). But I am curious about how these $125 (.5m in my case) IC will compare to the Moon Blue Dragon.

 That will be an additional reference point with something in the same price range.


----------



## pabbi1

Got the cables today... must TRY not to gush...

 Mark, your elegant description is (deadly) accurate (IMMHO). 

 I'll simply say the UR4 is an upgrade, and, for lack of a better term, spellbinding.

 Two thumbs up.


----------



## jp11801

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pabbi1* 
_Got the cables today... must TRY not to gush...

 Mark, your elegant description is (deadly) accurate (IMMHO). 

 I'll simply say the UR4 is an upgrade, and, for lack of a better term, spellbinding.

 Two thumbs up._

 


 can't wait to get mine, when did you order? Mine went in begining of september and still no cables. Even with the vacation it's been about a month, so I hope I'll be getting them anytime now. I hate to bother Grover as I realize he responds to where are my cables it's time he is not making cables.


----------



## PATB

I haven't heard a better sounding pair at this price. From his backorder, I guess a lot of people agree. Mine took forever too (I think about two months, and that's before they became popular at head-fi).

 So just stay in line and relax and Grover will take care of you.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jp11801* 
_can't wait to get mine, when did you order? Mine went in begining of september and still no cables. Even with the vacation it's been about a month, so I hope I'll be getting them anytime now. I hate to bother Grover as I realize he responds to where are my cables it's time he is not making cables._


----------



## jp11801

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PATB* 
_I haven't heard a better sounding pair at this price. From his backorder, I guess a lot of people agree. Mine took forever too (I think about two months, and that's before they became popular at head-fi).

 So just stay in line and relax and Grover will take care of you._

 

yes no worries I have good cables now I just am excited to hear these. I know he is slammed with orders right now. Thanks JP


----------



## pabbi1

I had to send a friendly status email after a week, then got them about a week later - 2 weeks total.

 One question to all: I have taken the QuickSilver Contact plunge - anyone know if the Grovers are already treated, or if alternately treated, if QuickSilver is still beneficial or detrimental?


----------



## adhoc

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pabbi1* 
_I had to send a friendly status email after a week, then got them about a week later - 2 weeks total.

 One question to all: I have taken the QuickSilver Contact plunge - anyone know if the Grovers are already treated, or if alternately treated, if QuickSilver is still beneficial or detrimental?_

 

afaik, they are not treated with anything.

 i also know for a fact that they are plated with *nickel*, so i would surmise while QuickSilver would certainly improve contact area, the bottleneck would still be the connector plating material.


----------



## DarkAngel

Time to update the Grover cable saga........we discussed the UR4 cable in some detail in previous posts, and my impression was that it is the biggest advance in sound of any of the previous UR designs.

 Grover of course has been tweaking things further in last 1+ months, I have the very latest incarnation which arrived 1 week ago. I ran it through the FryKleaner cable conditioner for 3 days and gave it a couple listens. It looks just like previous UR4 but now label says:

*Grover U.4.* with two period marks

 If I compare to older UR4 design it seems just slightly warmer fuller sounding, but not missing any detail resolution or soundstage size. I think most people will prefer this newest version (including me) and welcome the added richness, but this is just a very subtle distinction. Everything flows very smoothly with great detail resolution, it acheives that difficult feat of sounding relaxed and supple yet dynamic, powerful, and finely detailed.

 Nothing for owners of current UR4 to be concerned with, but I would recommend owners of earlier UR or older SR Grovers to seriously consider upgrading as the bar has been raised noticeably with Grover's latest work.

 Any more recent Grover cable reports? 
 (MarkL is cabled out now I think after his huge power cord report 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 )


----------



## euclid

grover contacted me on thursday and said hes been working his ass off in R&D and a ur5 is on the way. i cant wait to hear it.

 BTW if you reverse the direction of grovers the overall sound and especially the stage is distinctly different. i usally have the grover labels closest to the source but my u4 sound alot better with the labels closest to the amp.


----------



## arnaud

Although I was at first very pleasantly surprised with the punch, sparkle, soundstage and bass authority of the UR1, I have grown tired of some slight sibilance. It sounded very smooth in the first hours but now that it's all burned in, the highs are not grainy sounding, but something is not enjoyable, not sure how to describe it. 

 So today, after a few weeks spent with the UR1, I actually switched back to Outlaw Audio PCAs interconnects. The sound is more mellow, the soundstage is nowhere near the same but overall it sings more. Somehow, the music is just more pleasant.

 Based on update descriptions provided here (esp UR4 and soon to arrive UR5), the upgrade seems tempting, but is this really the kind of cable for my taste? In other words, are the latest updates making the cable more fun to listen to (I am not sure how to describe what I don't like about the UR1, maybe too cold, analytical, too perfect?!).

 cheers,

 Arnaud.


----------



## markl

arnaud, FWIW, I didn't especially like the UR1, I felt it was a step backwards from the old SR2. I think the UR2 and coming forward was where the UR series really came into its own. That said, I can't say at all whether you'd like the UR4 better than another cable, but I'm almost positive you'd like it better than the UR1 (if that helps you any). Cheers.


----------



## jp11801

is two months common for these cables from order to receipt? I have some on order and really understand that he is a small business just trying to figure out what average time is. Although if it's longer it will be the ur5.
 I am excited to hear them and compare to current cables I have.


----------



## DarkAngel

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jp11801* 
_is two months common for these cables from order to receipt? I have some on order and really understand that he is a small business just trying to figure out what average time is. Although if it's longer it will be the ur5.
 I am excited to hear them and compare to current cables I have._

 

Send Grover another follow-up email.........squeaky wheel gets the grease 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 On the plus side the UR cable has been improved since your initial order so you will get better cable when it arrives.


----------



## eyeteeth

A UR-5 should be arriving anyday. I'm hopeful of course (never discount) but not optimistic after the way UR-2-3-4 were knocked out in the first round by the Oritek X-1.


----------



## jp11801

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DarkAngel* 
_Send Grover another follow-up email.........squeaky wheel gets the grease 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 On the plus side the UR cable has been improved since your initial order so you will get better cable when it arrives._

 

 email sent last night so I should hear from him today or tomorrow he seems really good about commication. 

 You are right with any luck I'll have the UR4 version 2 or the UR5.


----------



## Kieran Comito

I have had an order in for over a couple of months as well. He is just really busy right now. With the R&D and the pile of orders he has, it is going to take some time.


----------



## eyeteeth

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *eyeteeth* 
_A UR-5 should be arriving anyday. I'm hopeful of course (never discount) but not optimistic after the way UR-2-3-4 were knocked out in the first round by the Oritek X-1._

 

This was the message from Grover about the UR-4:
*"I unfortunately did not send you my best cables. On the way are cables that will set a new standard(IMO). They are far and beyond the cables you have."*

 I had forgotten that....but now that I think about it I'm puzzled. 
 So are some people getting the "best cables" and others are not? 
 Is this the reason why the UR series have not generally seemed anything too special to me? 
 I've been sent the bad Ultimate Reference versions? 

 I thought I was to be won over to the fan club/band wagon? 
 Not convinced of the Ultimate Reference's OK-ness. 
 Has this all been a test? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Anyone else get one of the less than best URs?

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Kieran Comito* 
_ He is just really busy right now. With the R&D and the_

 

R&D.
 There's a Q-tip or pinata joke in there somewhere.


----------



## euclid

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *eyeteeth* 
_This was the message from Grover about the UR-4:
*"I unfortunately did not send you my best cables. On the way are cables that will set a new standard(IMO). They are far and beyond the cables you have."*

 I had forgotten that....but now that I think about it I'm puzzled. 
 So are some people getting the "best cables" and others are not? 
 Is this the reason why the UR series have not generally seemed anything too special to me? 
 I've been sent the bad Ultimate Reference versions? 

 I thought I was to be won over to the fan club/band wagon? 
 Not convinced of the Ultimate Reference's OK-ness. 
 Has this all been a test? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Anyone else get one of the less than best URs?

 R&D.
 There's a Q-tip or pinata joke in there somewhere. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





_

 

it seems to depend on where you fall in the revision time table... i originally ordered the ur2 and after about two months i recieved the ur4(the best at the time of shipment), then a few weeks later i was notified about the newer u4 and then about a month after that the ur5.

 source synergy is very important with these grovers. ive had a rollercoaster of results between different revisions and different sources. it would be nice to know what setup grover is actually using for r&d.


----------



## eyeteeth

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *euclid* 
_it seems to depend on where you fall in the revision time table... i originally ordered the ur2 and after about two months i recieved the ur4(the best at the time of shipment), then a few weeks later i was notified about the newer u4 and then about a month after that the ur5._

 

I generally got mine within two weeks including the UR4 a few weeks ago. I don't know the why of it.
 Like I said before you can't blame a guy for wanting to improve his product. But some audio products are in production for like ten years without major revision. They were right from the start, ready for prime time.

 The UR series reminds me of art college and how a project was from the original design or conception either right, wrong or somewhere in between. The right were easy to run with, the wrong were easy to discard. It was the in between that were buggers! I labored for ages revising, adjusting, adding, subtracting, rearranging and at some point I'd lose my perspective, lose objective judgment and every effort was just making things worse. No amount of screwing around could change for the better a design that wasn’t right to begin with.
 "You just can’t get there from here" comes to mind.

 Baseball analogy:
 The UR is a fine veteran; it consistently goes to bat and gets a hit, makes it safely to second base (that’s good for $140 IMO). Years of effort (R&D?) have had it arrive at this level of performance. Contrast that to the Oritek, the rookie goes to bat for the first time ever and smacks a home run.
 What does this say about having the right, wrong or somewhere between design from the start? No need for revision or upgrade. No need to "give it 100 hours to burn-in" 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 It just keeps smacking them out of the park every listen. It's design was on the money from the start, no goofing around.


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *euclid* 
_source synergy is very important with these grovers. ive had a rollercoaster of results between different revisions and different sources. it would be nice to know what setup grover is actually using for r&d._

 

I'm changed my mind on this. Cables having to be synergistically matched to sources means they are too colored, too interfering. 
 I think we agree that sources should be as tonally neutral as possible. I now think cables should be as non-interfering as possible. Not be nice, not be smooth but try for transparency. Be revealing and tonally neutral.

 The Oritek has twice the soundstage of the UR and a much greater amount of low level detail _without being brighter_. What does this say? It's about one being much more transparent and getting out of the way more than the other_ by design_.


----------



## markl

Quote:


 The UR is a fine veteran; it consistently goes to bat and gets a hit, makes it safely to second base (that’s good for $140 IMO). Years of effort (R&D?) have had it arrive at this level of performance. Contrast that to the Oritek, the rookie goes to bat for the first time ever and smacks a home run. 
 

 In your (not-so-humble) opinion.


----------



## euclid

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *eyeteeth* 
_I'm changed my mind on this. Cables having to be synergistically matched to sources means they are too colored, too interfering. 
 I think we agree that sources should be as tonally neutral as possible. I now think cables should be as non-interfering as possible. Not be nice, not be smooth but try for transparency. Be revealing and tonally neutral.

 The Oritek has twice the soundstage of the UR and a much greater amount of low level detail without being brighter. What does this say? It's about one being much more transparent and getting out of the way more than the other by design._

 

yes but in my experience the grovers were substantially better and really a completely new sound when i [substantially] upgraded my source. this doesnt meean they are more colored, in fact the opposite, they came to life when their source could step up to the challenge. they always felt really transparent but i thought they sounded anemic, what i ultimately found is i just didnt like how my source sounded. 

 in your case maybe the Oritek are the colored cables and you dont like the sound of the grovers b/c you dont ultimately like your source. im not trying to start with you just playing devils advocate on the topic.


----------



## eyeteeth

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markl* 
_In your (not-so-humble) opinion. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Heh...yeah.
 Let's agree on 'human' opinion. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The opinion doesn't look very humble, 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 at self!
 I've been cautious, I've checked and rechecked. It's not a comfortable position to put your neck on the line. To put yourself in postion to feel embarrassed should someone not have the same experience. It's also not comfortable to say A is better than B knowing an audience, including the creater, is watching. You feel like you're introducing Japanese automobiles into 1970's Detroit! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I take as much comfort as I can from the difference in price between the UR and X-1 and want to emphasize it. For some guys $140 is a stretch and $199 out of reach. I like the UR and I like Grover. Music lovers are fortunate to have the UR around. But tip toeing around the truth would nag me as well. 
 You know me as impatient with subtle upgrades. I was relating to a friend how upon entering higher end gear, cables were the biggest disappointment in not living up to the hype. 1000 cables and 1000 great reviews. Grover, Au24, PS Audio, Nordost, whatever, same old, same old sounds under $500. 

 I didn't think a listener should have to go meet the cable half way in hearing it's subtle differences. To have to meditate in order to detect. To be imaginitive in finding the words to describe. I wondered if I had lousy ears. I was content with that prospect, it would save me money. 
 The differences in sources, amps, etc are totally apparent without effort and I thought cables should be held to the same high standards, however unrealistic that was. And along comes the rookie Oritek with an interconnect that is in the order of a source upgrade! 

 I was equally overjoyed and uncomfortable. I was going to sound like a nut. But I felt I should still speak up. I kept having to verify again and again that it was true as my own opinion sounded like so much BS to me. What if I were to be alone in this experience? I'd look foolish. The only support I had was the reviews which precisely mirrored what I heard. Larry Cox was listening with ATC gear as was I. Could their revealing nature be magnifying the X-1's affect? I don't know. I'll have to live with it (with a smile). 

 My view is now obscured though with the addition (with some arm twisting) of the now unavailable Oritek S-1 speaker cable (web site is out of date. Soon the much more expensive S-2). I'm not hearing an IC as much now. The picture deepened, darkened but increased in detail and holography. But it did not wow me the way the X-1 did. It was not revelatory. It's impact was less. Detail 5-10%? Holography 10-20%?

 One reference for $140 and another for $199.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *euclid* 
_yes but in my experience the grovers were substantially better and really a completely new sound when i [substantially] upgraded my source. this doesnt meean they are more colored, in fact the opposite, they came to life when their source could step up to the challenge. they always felt really transparent but i thought they sounded anemic, what i ultimately found is i just didnt like how my source sounded. 

 in your case maybe the Oritek are the colored cables and you dont like the sound of the grovers b/c you dont ultimately like your source. im not trying to start with you just playing devils advocate on the topic._

 






 Swapping back and forth short term, blind, long term: consistent results} with the X-1, soundstage multiplies in all directions with images having more definition and independence, far more detail. Grover UR, everything shrinks and flattens, grayness increases and details disappear.
 If transparency (letting info pass untouched) and colored (interfering and obscuring of info) are opposites, which IC is which? The UR is revealing the lousiness of the source and the X-1 is independently generating musical information? Maybe 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 The beauty, I've discovered, of a high degree of transparency is that even with poorly mastered CDs it's easier to look past the bad, the good stuff that is there can shine through. Colored tries to hide the bad but loses the good. I guess it's a personal preference in the end. 
 (The X-1 did confirm what I knew to some extent though, that my $200 Graham Slee phonostage was a weakest link. It ruined it! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ).

 Maybe the UR-5 is the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow? That would be perfectly fine with me. I'd be overjoyed! If so, I shall not tippy toe around the truth either.
 I will report it here immediately.


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## euclid

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *eyeteeth* 
_Heh...yeah.
 .






 Swapping back and forth short term, blind, long term: consistent results} with the X-1, soundstage multiplies in all directions with images having more definition and independence, far more detail. Grover UR, everything shrinks and flattens, grayness increases and details disappear.
 If transparency (letting info pass untouched) and colored (interfering and obscuring of info) are opposites, which IC is which? The UR is revealing the lousiness of the source and the X-1 is independently generating musical information? Maybe 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

you might be right in your comparisons and i would like to try the cables you are praising. my first set of grovers ur4 sounded like your impressions, i was not impressed and i preferred the vhaudio pulsars for various reasons.

 after getting a better source the grovers became very good and the pulsars lost ground. i clearly prefer the grovers now and they now exhibit none of the original weaknesses. soundstage in particular is now huge and 3 dimensional.

 i risk sounding overly dramatic about my results and could potentially disappoint peopel who dont hear the same characterisitics or nuances. 
 i just have to stress that a source change made a huge difference and now i am not hunting for any improvements in the sound, nor am i overly concerned with weaknesses b/c i really cant find any glaring at me.


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## eyeteeth

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *euclid* 
_i just have to stress that a source change made a huge difference and now i am not hunting for any improvements in the sound, nor am i overly concerned with weaknesses b/c i really cant find any glaring at me._

 

There are no glaring weaknesses with the UR. It's a good cable. 
 It's just that the UR didn't live up to the hype _for me_ and the X-1 did live up to the hype. 
 One was good, the other extraordinary. 
 So listen and compare. 

 The dude's web site is not good (I hate it) and out of date (ignore the pricing). 

 If you don't like them, return them, you get your money back. 
 They're burned-in before shipping and ship the same day. 
 No waiting, plug 'n play! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Like some of us say "hearing is believing"


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## euclid

my pulsars are going back to vh-audio tomorrow, i listened to them again tonight after not hearing them for a couple weeks and im now 100% sure im not keeping them around, the ur4 and u4 are better for my system.

 when the $170 is refunded to my paypal account i will order the oritek x1 and hopefully we can continue our discussion. by that time ill have the ur5 on hand and burned in too. 

 id like to try the michael wolff cables but i really cant afford to like them, $475 is out of my range for a pair of interconnects. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 edit: are you sure oritek offers a trial period? i dont see it listed anywhere on the website


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## eyeteeth

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *euclid* 
_edit: are you sure oritek offers a trial period? i dont see it listed anywhere on the website_

 

Yeah that web site isn't very good is it. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 His head is more full of music and math, than marketing and money I guess? Gotta keep those customers away! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I'm positive about the return policy. When the speaker cables arrived, I was sending them back as the spades didn't fit and frankly their appearance didn't impress. I asked if I could solder off the spades and still be able to return them if I didn't like them and get my money back. I was told "yes".
 So now I have the drop dead gorgeous blue, gold, silver python thick PS Audio Statement cables sonically surpassed by the half the price, scrawny, plain as could be looking Oritek S-1. They really were going back (I was quite annoyed!), but now after listening, I have no choice but to keep them.

 Ask the guy, he'll even let you audition a pair for free. That's another unstated policy. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 EDIT: You know what euclid, I think I have a sense of when the very gentlemanly and uber civilized markl may begin to silently emit steam and further enquiries should be in my Oritek X-1 review thread.


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## euclid

enough said


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## Jeff Wong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *euclid* 
_my pulsars are going back to vh-audio tomorrow, i listened to them again tonight after not hearing them for a couple weeks and im now 100% sure im not keeping them around, the ur4 and u4 are better for my system._

 

Not to confuse matters, but it seems to me if you haven't listened to your Pulsars in several weeks, you may not have had a signal going through them during that time - the implication being that you might need to burn them in again to compare your cables fairly. The benefits of break in have to do with the dielectric insulation and it charging... leaving cables dormant for lengthy periods of time means starting from scratch.


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## euclid

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jeff Wong* 
_Not to confuse matters, but it seems to me if you haven't listened to your Pulsars in several weeks, you may not have had a signal going through them during that time - the implication being that you might need to burn them in again to compare your cables fairly. The benefits of break in have to do with the dielectric insulation and it charging... leaving cables dormant for lengthy periods of time means starting from scratch._

 

before, i let both the ur4 and pulsars (simlutaniously) continuously burn-in for over 100 hours, when i put them back into my main system the difference in characteristics between the two were still the same. 

 they still sound the same now, alone and relative to each other, theyve both been dormant this last week. what can i say, ive given the pulsars alot of listening in total(at different times) and they just havnt impressed me in comparison to either grover, the first ur4 is still my preference.

 edit: even the dormant ur4 vs. a u4 active for over a week in my main system.


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## Hirsch

3 pairs of UR 5 are now in-house. I've got to figure out exactly where I want them, and do some listening. Impressions forthcoming.


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## DarkAngel

Like to hear comments from *Hirsch* since we own a few common cables, I have given the UR5 a listen and posted a couple comments at Hoffman:

  Quote:


 I have also heard a few versions of the UR4 as they were being developed like Seagoat above. The UR4 was a large step up for me from the older UR1, UR2, UR3 designs. I would not call the UR4 analytical or ruthlessly revealing of average CDs flaws, quite the contrary for me I play all kinds of alt rock Cds with Grovers and they never sounded better or more detailed, layer of noise has been lifted revealing better sound for the masses.

 The recent steps in UR4 continued to further refine and naturally enhance and expand the sound, giving a full bodied highly dynamic presentation, but capable of subtle fine detail retrieval far beyond its price. I just find them very natural and organic sounding, allows music to flow beautifully. 

 The UR5 continues this line of refinement, the improvements are ones of subtle nuances and even more realistic holographic sound stage for me. It has all the detail and dynamic attack as before, but somehow music flows even smoother with more coherent image, again achieving the difficult paradox in audio of sounding smoother more relaxed yet more detailed, really a universal cable at home with audiophile CDs or basic rock. 

 This is the type of sound I really like, makes listening to any music fun....... 
 I will post more at Head-Fi as I get more used to UR5, I ran them on FryKleaner conditioner for 3 days before listening a bit today 
 

So the UR5 is a continued refinement of direction various UR4 cables explored, everything just slightly better with natural very refined detailed rich sound.......I predict ET will not be impressed with UR5 but everyone has different tastes and each system has own colorations. 

 Thinking back to the older Grover SR series, they had a more lively sound with more treble energy giving a leaner more exciting overall sound. The UR5 sounds much different now with more balanced natural tonal spectrum, the music is fuller with more weight and dynamic range, a more relaxed listening experience that can play any kind of music beautifully with great insight to the artist. The Grover line has very sucessfully advanced over last few years to an incredible level of refined musical performance at amazingly low price.


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## jeffreyj900

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DarkAngel* 
_No arrows but you will notice that shrink tube label is closer to one end with the lettering also pointing to that end........I would just use that as signal output end whenever you move ICs, also you could put your own removeable tag/label to clearly establish direction when cables are moved.

 The *FryKleaner* has proven to be extremely effective tweak device and very cost effective, it has become essential item in my cable collection._

 

I am sure this is going to sound silly, BUT.... I have the UR-2's with the arrows. I had no idea it made a difference. I searched through this thread, but couldn't find out which way they go. Should the arrow be pointed toward the source or amp? Does it even make a difference?

 Confused in Atlanta


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## jeffreyj900

Never mind!!! Grover sent me a PM


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## eyeteeth

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DarkAngel* 
_.......I predict ET will not be impressed with UR5 but everyone has different tastes and each system has own colorations._

 

I'm not writing off anything before it's heard. Who knows what marvel could arrive! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 As for colourations, I'm not suffering any on the gear end. You want to really hear Dark Side of the Moon as Doug Sax heard it for the remastering to SACD?
 Then listen through the same drivers and amplification that he used (or Ludwig, etc). 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 We're suffering more colouration through our personalities, the colourations of psychology; anticipation, expectation, predjudice, loyalty, investment of time and money, association, identification and pride, etc.

 I find I get a clearer look by being impudent and disloyal


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## eyeteeth

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *eyeteeth* 
_You want to really hear Dark Side of the Moon as Doug Sax heard it for the remastering to SACD?
 Then listen through the same drivers and amplification that he used (or Ludwig, etc)._

 

Something wasn't sitting right for me on this and being disloyal to my own memory I double checked. I'm incorrect, engineer James Guthrie used ATC for the 5.1 remix. http://www.atc.gb.net/news/2003/pages/pink_floyd.html

 But Sax and Floyd are mixed up in the gear also.
http://www.atc.gb.net/news/2005/dougsax.html

 I don't use the stuff for these reasons, I just find it highly musical with tremendous bang for the buck.


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## greenhorn

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_[size=medium]*Why Aren't These Cables $1000?*[/size] 

 [...] what’s inside a Grover cable? I suspect only Grover knows for sure, and at the moment he ain’t talking. No web site, no brochures, no marketing bullet points, no graphics showing cross-sections of his cables, no outrageous claims. Just one model, *no big product line with multiple upgrade points to cause anxiety and sleepless nights ("would I be happier *if only* I had ordered the next model up?"). You get the feeling that as far as Grover is concerned, the Ultimate Reference is IT, there is no upgrade path, just one cable that represents his best effort, period, and there’s something both elegant and comforting about that. *_

 

Times have changed...


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## sbulack

I don't think Grover has changed his way of offering his product since he started. He offers one product - his latest representing his best effort. He does not offer multiple products at different price points and SQ tradeoffs. It would seem from later posts by Markl in this thread that he was well aware that Grover continuously improves his one offering, and offers current customers the option of getting current with his latest at a reduced price. If I am mistaken and Markl is surprised (or disappointed) by the subsequent UR improvements (as though he thought that Grover would stop improving his cables at the original UR), then I would gladly be corrected. I took Markl's statement that there is no "upgrade path" as meaning that you don't have to upgrade between a lower end Grover product to a higher end offering - not that there is no product improvement over time. But again, if I am misunderstanding Markl's statement, I would gladly receive correction on that.

 It does not appear to me that times (or Grover's product offering strategy) have changed at all. His product just keeps getting better and better and ... Having been the repeated recipient of Grover's generosity (in his product value/pricing, service, and continuous work to offer an ever-better product - at reduced prices for existing customers), I, for one, am glad that Grover's business model (and his quest for quality/value) has NOT changed.


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## jpr703

Personalities are different, tastes are different, systems are different. No matter how you slice it, Grover makes one heck of a cable for the money.


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## eyeteeth

What a bump! I feel a little embarrased seeing my own comments. Oh well, times change, priorities change and for the record I now think Oritek, Grover and the rest of them are plain nonsense. I eventually climbed as high as Nordost Frey in my audiophile placebo self deception but have since sold it and use cheap stuff (Blue Jeans, Mogami, Belkin) at no sonic loss. 
 IMHO Folks are being ripped off with way overpriced cables.


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## J-Pak

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *eyeteeth* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What a bump! I feel a little embarrased seeing my own comments. Oh well, times change, priorities change and for the record I now think Oritek, Grover and the rest of them are plain nonsense. I eventually climbed as high as Nordost Frey in my audiophile placebo self deception but have since sold it and use cheap stuff (Blue Jeans, Mogami, Belkin) at no sonic loss. 
 IMHO Folks are being ripped off with way overpriced cables._

 

Nice move, theres better places to spend money improving sound


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## stressnot

Quote:


 and for the record I now think Oritek, Grover and the rest of them are plain nonsense. I eventually climbed as high as Nordost Frey in my audiophile placebo self deception but have since sold it and use cheap stuff (Blue Jeans, Mogami, Belkin) at no sonic loss. 
 

If the improvements in sound I have heard with Grover's cables are strictly "placebo," I must be on the verge of experiencing auditory hallucinations by now!
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Thank God, they're ego-syntonic.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 . . .






 By the way, if hearing improvements in sound that others claim are not there (ostensibly, due to unrealistically high expectations about what cables can do) is "placebo," is there a term we can use when someone makes themselves intractably oblivious to the sonic refinements that come with higher quality cables (perhaps due to their lowered expectations)?


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## nelamvr6

Grover's cables are one of the best bargains in the audio world.

 If you really think Grover's cables are expensive, you really should check out Kimber, Audience, Nordost, Tara Labs etc. etc.


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## sbulack

I brought my Grover U8 home from my work rig over this long weekend to use in my home rig in place of the Grover S cable I've been using for the past weeks now. The U8 definitely has its own quite enchanting sound, even to ears well-accustomed to the S. From my work rig, I can say that the U8 is a very nice step up from the original UR (no number) that I've been using there for months now. After my ears become well-accustomed to hearing all of my favorite music through the U8 at home, I'm going to switch back to the S to hear the difference in the other direction. The main difference I note is that the U8 is more forgiving of flaws in the source material (either low bitrate or, say, an overly-bright production mix). But that does NOT translate into missing detail. Good impact, subtle detail, great spatial presentation are all there with the U8. As noted above, the U8 has its own enchanting properties for listening. Its sound leans more in the solid, palpable direction than the S, which delivers sound a little more in a diaphanous, ethereal vein. I've transferred my Bogdan Gold/Silver Spirit IC to my M^3 / Senn HD580 - with which it sounds really optimal. The S cable on my PPA / SR225 gives me a nice balance between the solid, palpable sound of the U8 and the diaphanous sound of the BGSS. However, my ear is surely enjoying the more fully palpable sound of the U8 with the PPA / SR225 for awhile. With the U8, the S and the Bodgan GSS, I'm just blessed with an embarassment of sonic riches from which to choose and savor.


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## melville

Has anyone tried the latest interconnects from Grover? Any impressions regarding sound quality and sonic attributes? Still the best bang of buck compared to big companies?
  I didn't mean to bump this thread, but I couldn't find any recent thread, no post from 2008 onwards on most threads.
  Cheers!


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