# How much difference does a portable amp make?



## Merck

I am new to high end audio and I primarily use an Apple iPhone and an old 80gb iPod. I will be purchasing some Etymotic HF3's soon but I have never heard the difference between an amped headphone and just one that is plugged in to the music device. I notice amps and the associated accessories can get quite expensive so I was just wondering what the real advantages of using a portable amp are in regards to IEMs.


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## winkyeye

I can't say much about the sound quality "improvements" that come with amping but looking at the HF3's 105dB/mW sensitivity and 16Ohm impedance, but I don't think it really doesn't need extra juice to sound good.
   
  For 110dB it just needs ~3.2mW (RMS voltage of .23V and a peak current of  20mA), which most portable players are easily capable of. Now I've never been a firm believer of amping IEMs unless you want a certain coloration that a specific amp brings to an IEM (IMO achievable through EQ). However I guess if you put the volume on maximum and use the ipods lineout jack to an amp, you might get slightly better audio quality. But honestly, I think it's too much of a hassle if you're looking for portability. This just my opinion though.


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## Merck

winkyeye said:


> I can't say much about the sound quality "improvements" that come with amping but looking at the HF3's 105dB/mW sensitivity and 16Ohm impedance, but I don't think it really doesn't need extra juice to sound good.
> 
> For 110dB it just needs ~3.2mW (RMS voltage of .23V and a peak current of  20mA), which most portable players are easily capable of. Now I've never been a firm believer of amping IEMs unless you want a certain coloration that a specific amp brings to an IEM (IMO achievable through EQ). However I guess if you put the volume on maximum and use the ipods lineout jack to an amp, you might get slightly better audio quality. But honestly, I think it's too much of a hassle if you're looking for portability. This just my opinion though.


Thanks for the response. I haven't been posting very long here as you can see but I have been lurking quite a bit and there are some extremely helpful people here who give freely of their time and knowledge and I really appreciate that. I can definitely see sticking around this forum since, as my salary increases over time, I plan on purchasing a nice headphone setup for home listening since it is more affordable than a home speaker system of similar quality.


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## Nagasaki_Kid

straight up amping the hf2 might not improve it but you might want into looking at adding an resistance adapter and an amp.
   
  someone in the hf5 appreciation thread recommends 100ohm resistances.


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## winkyeye

I personally don't experience a "drastic improvement" in sound quality when amping iems as some members on here do. The only reason I see for having an amp is if you have something that can't be powered to audible levels straight out of your source (in the case of power hungry cans) or if the amp has a slight coloration that you prefer and feel that EQ does not give you the same quality.
   
  Having a volume attenuator would probably suit your needs given your current setup.


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## LJH01

I have been playing with a JDS Cmoy for the last two weeks.  I am using it with a Iphone 4 and, mostly, my Ety HF5's and a LOD jack and while the HF's are easily driven I am hearing a pretty drastic improvement. Not sure exactly how to explain it but the JDS is suppose to add just a slight hint of warmth to the sounds which I do hear but I really think the biggest difference is in the sound stage....it just sounds so much wider and deeper to me.  With the bass boost on you get a nice notch up in the bass "punch" while never sounding muddy, I am guessing I listen to 85% of my tracks with the BB on.  All in all adding the JDC Cmoy make the sound bigger and better all around and I think it is pretty noticeable.
   
  The down side is that adding a amp, even the size of the Cmoy,  is a PIA for portability.  I have had a Fiio E1 for months and while it may not be a amp in the truest sense of the word it gets the signal from the LOD and it offers the controls on the wire...perfect for truly portable use.  I only seem to use the Cmoy for static listening just because of it size and PIA factor.
   
  For $60 I am totally happy with what it has done for my listening enjoyment.
   
  Cheers,
  Jim


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## Uncle Erik

Read Boomana's Wiki for new users for a realistic take on portable amps.

Personally, I don't see the point of portables.

Highly efficient IEMs and headphones run fine right out of an iPod or similar. No need to buy a portable.

Inefficient full-sized headphones are not driven well by portables - they need an amp powered off the mains to really sing. Again, no need to buy a portable.

I run my IEMs directly off my iPod when I go portable. At home, I run big, heavy and not-so-portable tube amps for the best sound.

Money is not an issue. I see no need for a portable amp.


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## MayaTlab

My limited experience tells me that there is no definite answer to that question. Improvements can be either subtle or quite dramatic depending on the phones in use. As an example I don't think the B&W P5 needs much amping. On the other hand the DT 1350 seemed to improve quite dramatically with added power. 
  As far as IEMs go I think power isn't that important. Most important in that case is how the amp is designed and how well does it cope with the load it sees.
  So I think amping can bring up differences, but it depends on a lot of factors.
  For the OP's HF3 : I had at some point in my life the HF-2 and the ER4-P. I'm not sure amping will bring massive improvements. These two earphones already were quite limited by design in dynamic range, and I feel their transparency is in some way "built in" their sound signature. I could be wrong, but my guess is that it will provide at best a slight boost to sound quality, but nothing that can compete with selling your headphones and buying a higher-end one for the same price.


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## estreeter

Uncle Erik, I normally agree with most of what you have to say, but you are grossly over-generalising re IEMs and portable sources.
   
  Joker would seem to be in total agreement with you that *most* IEMs dont demand an amp, but the reality is that some most definitely do and he points that out in his monster IEM review. That doesnt mean it has to be portable, and there are valid objections to the idea of using multiple components in a noisy portable environment, but for those of us who enjoy *transportable* kit, there is a lot to be said for having something you can plug into that laptop or DAP in the hotel room - I am typing this from a Net cafe in Southern Thailand and very much looking forward to a few DVDs via my uHA-4 later tonite - try doing that with the ZD  
   
  (on the plane, I use IEMs straight from my DAP, and the OP may never need anything more)


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## Merck

Well as it stands now,  I own the Klipsch Image S4i's and have the hf3's on the way here and I just jumped on the RE0 bandwagon to see how well those headphones work for dedicated use with my ipod.  I have some music on the iphone but there just isn't close to enough space (16GB) to accomadate my entire collection.  Would the RE0's be better suited to being amplified just on the ipod or am I simply better off saving the money and not even worrying about it at all.


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## Mad Max

RE0 improves mildly with an amp.  It has sufficient efficiency, so no need to worry.


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## Mad Max

Quote: 





uncle erik said:


> Read Boomana's Wiki for new users for a realistic take on portable amps.
> 
> Personally, I don't see the point of portables.
> 
> ...


 

 You're oversimplifying the matter.  Some portable sources behave kind of funky when trying to power low-impedance earphones (there's the Sony players as one example I've seen around here), or output impedance isn't low enough for optimal dampening factor, which will affect how well the player's amp controls the earphones/headphones.  High efficiency is perfered, but there seems to be such thing as too efficient, and not just because of the resultant hiss.
  Switch to an external, well-made amp and the player's line-out = problems solved.  A really good external amp will make your rig sound better at the same volume as the player's HP amp.  Cleaner, fuller, tighter, clearer sound with bigger soundstage and mildly improved precision.  It's like when you get a really good DAC with a built-in amp that is a bit of an "afterthought" compared to the DAC, then later you switch to the DAC's line-out and connect it to a much better standalone amp.  You will get some improvement in sound.
  I should mention that a portable amp comes only after acquiring the source and 'phones and you really like the both the source and 'phones.


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## Uncle Erik

There should be sufficiently low output impedance from any solid state amp - including portables. The problem is that they're underpowered for the big headphones. Output impedance is primarily a problem for OTL tube amps where some manufacturers claim they drive anything when they don't.

Sure, some IEMs might need additional power, but the majority are fine from a DAP.

As for full-sized headphones, I'd rather run them off an old receiver left out for trash collection.

I do agree that a transportable amp is worth having, as long as it plugs into the mains. I might case the CK2III in a small package so I can travel with it.


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## NA Blur

I can honestly say two things about IEM and amps:
   
  1.) Yes an amp can make a huge difference. I work with a fellow audiophile and he plugged his Ultimate Ears into an Ultra Desktop I had laying around at the time and it just about floored him.
   
  2.) Due to most IEM's having low impedance ( anywhere from 4 Ohms up to 150 Ohms ) you want to make sure whatever amp you use can drive such low impedance drivers. For instance the Music Hall 25.2 amp will not drive low impedance drivers such as Ultamate Ears
   
  Regarding Etymotic HF3's I think they are awesome. I personally cannot get these type of IEM's to fit well in my ear canals so I cannot use them. When I hold them in place though they sound amazing. I bought a friend of mine a pair of Etymotic MC5's and he loves 'em. They certainly seal really well and sound nice to boot.
   
  I would say start with purchasing your favorite IEM, then if the sound is not up to par look around for a Total Bithead. It is not very expensive, it is portable, and is a really fun device. I let my lab mate use mine and he loves it with his Grado SR-80's.


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## Eric_C

Quote: 





na blur said:


> I can honestly say two things about IEM and amps:
> 
> 1.) Yes an amp can make a huge difference. I work with a fellow audiophile and he plugged his Ultimate Ears into an Ultra Desktop I had laying around at the time and it just about floored him.
> 
> 2.) Due to most IEM's having low impedance ( anywhere from 4 Ohms up to 150 Ohms ) you want to make sure whatever amp you use can drive such low impedance drivers. For instance the Music Hall 25.2 amp will not drive low impedance drivers such as Ultamate Ears


 

 But an Ultra Desktop isn't portable, and doesn't even qualify as a transportable. Shouldn't we be recommending portable amps that illustrate the difference amping can make to OP's proposed setup of HF3 + iPod/iPhone?
   
  Also, which IEM has an impedance of 4 Ohms? I thought single-digit impedance was the domain of speakers.


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## Merck

This is an excellent discussion. I have been looking at the total hothead but I think I'll be holding off for awhile since funding needs to be allocated elsewhere. I think a 160 GB iPod is higher up on the list since my current device can't hold all that I have. Also, what's this JMT fellow I have read about who is known to build portable amps?


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## ubercaffeinated

i think portable amps make a huge difference depending on the IEMs used.
   
  case in point: the ER-4S - they're pretty nice when amped properly/have good synergy going etc, yet unamped, it sounds like utter garbage.


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## Dev Avidon

I'm not sure which generation of iPod your 80 gig is, but if it's a 5.5g video or earlier, you may actually want to keep it if you're primarily concerned with the sound quality.  Starting with the iPod classic, Apple switched to Cirrus Logic for their internal converters, and the general consensus is that they don't sound as good as the Wolfson converters in the earlier ones.  Yes, it's a bit of a hassle, and you'll have to swap out music every now and again, but just worth considering.
   
  As far as amping IEMs goes, while I agree that most DAPs should have no trouble giving the average IEM enough power, its the quality of that power that can be an issue.  Many DAP ICs are relatively high noise, and have poor intermodulation characteristics.  My SE-5s, for example, have what I'd consider to be an unacceptable level of hiss straight out of my brother's iPod Classic (having rockboxed and rebuilt my 5.5g video with the AD4705-2 chip, it's usually not an issue at anything approaching a sane listening level).  However, even his $15 FiiO E1 more or less eliminates it.  I certainly wouldn't, personally, spend big money on a portable amp for IEMs, though I think of my SR-71b as being a fantastic purchase (primarily because it will push my K1000s to a point in balanced output, which lets me mix and master on the road).  That said, I know a number of people who simply don't find IEMs comfortable, and prefer full-size closed shell cans even for travel listening, and a portable amp definitely helps in that case.  I also struggled to push my first IEMs, RE-0s, straight out of an iPod, so it may well depend on the model you have.  I think the overall point here is, there's not necessarily a cut and dry answer to whether or not a portable amp is worth it for you.


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## iancraig10

It depends where you take the feed from. If you feed the amp from a line out, what happens is that the signal to noise ratio is far better so an amp (in effect) turns DOWN the volume coming from the  source and therefore reduces the noise as well.
   
  From headphone out, the noise remains constant at any volume (normally), therefore I would then agree with Erik but not from a line out.
   
  Then there is also impedance out which could alter the sound as well as the tonal characteristics of the amp itself being planted on top of the earphone's sound.
   
  The amp will also provide plenty of power just in case the source (as it often is) is low powered and driving ok, but struggling to provide proper current for low impedance or provide sufficient voltage swings for high impedance.
   
  If it's just a case of being able to hear music, then I'd say a portable was not necessary - you'll get sound from a portable to a K701, but if you ensure that you go from line out the improvements you can get are:
   
  Improved signal/noise
  Better dynamics
  Slight tone colour shift
   
  Although it's not as convenient for portable which is perhaps more in line with what Erik is getting at.
   
  Most people are satisfied with iem's direct, but it depends how critical your ears are.
   
  Ian


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## qusp

Quote: 





eric_c said:


> But an Ultra Desktop isn't portable, and doesn't even qualify as a transportable. Shouldn't we be recommending portable amps that illustrate the difference amping can make to OP's proposed setup of HF3 + iPod/iPhone?
> 
> *Also, which IEM has an impedance of 4 Ohms? I thought single-digit impedance was the domain of speakers.*


 
   
  quite a lot of multiple driver in ears will present a complex and varying single digit impedance at some frequencies, impedance specifications are usually given at 1khz, at bass frequencies and with real music signals the story can be quite different. current delivery is what these things need, not voltage gain. this pretty simple fact seems to be forever causing people trouble on this forum and the perennial 'if ts able to go loud its as good as it gets' catch-cry is pretty inaccurate and doesnt look at even half the picture
   
  plus another gem of an outdated over generalization WRT portables and battery power. Uncle erik obviously isnt aware that due to solar, other renewable energy and automotive investment; single 25 x 65mm lithium polymer cells that are available to anyone, can now put out a constant 70amps and burst up to 140A (at a nominal 3v3 thats a constant 231W with bursts of 462W) with an output impedance of less than 10mOhms for a single cell and VERY low noise, at regular solid state voltages this is overkill and capable of melting anything but high gauge wires, not under powered. good luck getting anywhere near that with AC without serious investment, space etc Thats if you can do it at all, its pretty much the perfect power supply.. the wall and transformer isnt even powering (not even connected to it in fact) the AC powered unit the vast majority of the time, the capacitors are doing the heavy lifting, these batteries are basically very high performance capacitors that have the clean DC already in there.
   
  that being said, the etys are about as easy a load as you are going to get for iems, single driver, fairly linear frequency response and impedance curve, pretty efficient. not likely to improve all that much over the pretty respectable iphone HP output with ANY amp. the ER4S were a little more tricky, these not so much.


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## NA Blur

The Total Bithead mentioned above is quite portable. My point is that an amp can make a huge difference with IEM's. As to an IEM with impedance of 4 Ohms that is a bit ludicrous. I was merely making a point that there are plenty of good IEM's out there with low impedance ( around 18 Ohms ) and and some amps cannot drive them. The bass will be completely washed out or nonexistent.
   
  The Bithead is also a nice portable DAC so you can not only have a portable headphone amp, but a decent digital to analog converter that fits nicely in your pocket. This is especially helpful if you are not satisfied with the audio output coming out of a computer you are working with.
   
  I use my Bithead with my iPod all of the time at work and really enjoy the boost it gives my headphones / IEM's.


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## KlausGut

Look into your heart.  Sounds corny, huh? Do you really want a portable amp or do you just want a toy -- something new to learn about and experience? Or are you concerned you won't be squeezing every last tingling shiver from your Etys? Do you really want to lug around another hunk of metal and plastic that has to be recharged?
   
  Hey, I've bought crap just 'cause I can or 'cause I was curious, not because I needed it or even wanted it. We've all done it or will do it.
   
  With all audio, be it home theater, desktop heaphones, or portables, my advice is to spend most of your cash on whatever actually generates the sound waves, and in this case, the IEM. You acheive the most significant differences with drivers (be they large or tiny). Leave the amps to the golden ears or those banking. Don't get take this the wrong way, but, if your aim is the Etymotic HF3 then you don't fall into either category. Just my 2 $.01.


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## Uncle Erik

qusp, obviously you don't know how hot proper class A operation gets.

Even if you had sufficient power, it'd be too hot to hold and well above the 105° C ratings of most components.

Unless you want to carry around a few pounds of heatsink. Suppose you could wear it like a backpack.

Portables are compromised.

Again, you don't need a portable for the vast majority of IEMs. They're a waste.

Again, if you're listening at home, you might as well buy a desktop. They're often cheaper, too.

You're making excuses for an _irrelevant_ piece of hardware. You don't have a financial dog in this fight, do you?


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## qusp

eermmm, this is in reference to what exactly? i dont see the relevance, you mentioned *transportable* kit, said nothing about having to be class A and then said as long as it was AC powered. I simply questioned the need for the AC, because batteries can easily supply enough current and voltage for a *transportable* headphone system (as long as its SS and you arent trying to run 200v tubes), even class A is doable if it doesnt go in your pocket and sinking to get rid of what 5-10W could easily be designed into a case. 
   
  i know very well how hot proper class A gets, being that i'm just winding up (casework stage) a balanced 2 x 60W (woofers) and 2 x 35W (tweeters) (all Class A, about 160-200W total dissipation PC simplified numbers), biamped and digitally crossed speaker rig with a pair of aleph JX (power amps), a pair of power jfet circlotrons (more power amps) and 2 x balanced dacs, one with a CLASS A IV stage that dissipates 50W for a 3Vrms signal. Youde be a bit silly (edit for uncalled for severity) to even try to do discrete Class A portable, especially with how good Class AB sounds these days and given decent opamps mostly operate in class A. Depending on the load it could be done, but i dont know why. a discrete input, or output stage perhaps for a bit of flavor.
   
  the heat is there regardless of where the power comes from, in fact more from AC as you have the TX, PSU and bridge creating heat also
   
   


Spoiler: kinda%20off%20topic%20argument%20with%20Erik%20for%20those%20interested



 
  if properly designed, gear shouldnt get hotter than 65->70 degrees max (with internal die temp a touch higher) and indeed for 2 x 60W + 2 x 35W Class A output i have some pretty serious heatsinks, about 60kg of them, but thats another story. I wouldnt even attempt to run anything but perhaps the jfet input stage on batteries, but for a transportable headphone system, powering any headphone you can think of (apart from electrostats, or maybe some of the planars), modern batteries are perfectly sufficient and have nothing to do with the heat problem. more heat is created in the process of propelling a 1/8th scale jet at a couple hundred km/h than a set of headphones and thats their bread and butter.
   
  nope, no dog in this fight, only stuff other than cables ive designed and built of late is for my own enjoyment. I just dont like seeing your over simplification of the issue all around the forum, based on what i consider to be untruths, saying that portable amps or indeed broadening that to battery powered transportable amps, cannot output enough power now to be worthwhile, is just bollocks, they can output 2-3W+ without too much trouble if you were designing for that sort of output.
   
  2-3w= 2000-3000mw (way overkill, more than needed for 600ohms) so say <7v swing for the higher impedance headphones (good enough for Borbely, good enough for me) can be provided with a +/-9v power supply and a pair of buffers capable of 250ma that can swing within 1v of the rails into 600R (with much less than 50ma of that needed with the 7v swing =350mWPC for any reasonable headphone load, but much more on tap for lower z headphones) and that can be dealt with with nothing more than a large copper ground plane on the pcb. add a small fan and a cpu heatsink and the sky is the limit, although the lme49610 buffer i'm talking about, will actually start to struggle at ~700mW each, so you would have to parallel 2 of them to get the 2-3w, but i'm not building for that much power, my needs are much more modest.
   
  for example with 'the Wire' a diy headphone amp project that uses these buffers, I tested how low i could take the voltage with hd600 before it started to sound lacking and i got down to +/-5v. I run it at +/-12v normally just because i can and the distortion numbers are better. 
   


   
   
  just as a point of interest too, there are a number of people running small aleph minis and F5s on batteries powering efficient speakers with pure class A
   
   
  sorry for the massive post guys, i just came back and added to this one rather than making another one and put it inside the spoiler box for those that would rather skip it.


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## Trysaeder

Quote: 





merck said:


> I notice amps and the associated accessories can get quite expensive so I was just wondering what the real advantages of using a portable amp are in regards to IEMs.


 


  The only definite things with portable amps are the numbers your wallet will be missing and the weight your pocket will be holding.


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## Merck

klausgut said:


> Look into your heart.  Sounds corny, huh? Do you really want a portable amp or do you just want a toy -- something new to learn about and experience? Or are you concerned you won't be squeezing every last tingling shiver from your Etys? Do you really want to lug around another hunk of metal and plastic that has to be recharged?
> 
> Hey, I've bought crap just 'cause I can or 'cause I was curious, not because I needed it or even wanted it. We've all done it or will do it.
> 
> With all audio, be it home theater, desktop heaphones, or portables, my advice is to spend most of your cash on whatever actually generates the sound waves, and in this case, the IEM. You acheive the most significant differences with drivers (be they large or tiny). Leave the amps to the golden ears or those banking. Don't get take this the wrong way, but, if your aim is the Etymotic HF3 then you don't fall into either category. Just my 2 $.01.


I do appreciate your thoughts on this as I have seen that they are quite accurate. I have decided to hold off on an amp for the time being. I realize the more important thing is finding a suitable portable audio device with enough capacity for my music library since the current 80 gig iPod I have is not sufficient. I have been learning a lot in this thread and others about amps and how they relate to headphones of various types. Lots of info, one of the many reasons I love online forums.


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## qusp

yep, I agree, as i said in my first post at the end of it, if its just the ety, forget the amp, get a good source tyhat best suits your needs and i dont mean audiophile type player, but if you want to upgrade from here, upgrade the headphones, great headphones will sound better out of a crappy source and no amp than average headphones out of the best amp


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## Akabeth

Quote: 





uncle erik said:


> Personally, I don't see the point of portables.
> Highly efficient IEMs and headphones run fine right out of an iPod or similar. No need to buy a portable.


 
   
  Exactly.
   
  To OP, I'd much rather have you spend your time and money on acquiring better source material and have that ripped in lossless format for your iPod. 
  Nowadays I just stick an earbud or ksc into whatever source I'm carrying. No amps, no fat wires, no unwanted attention, no hassle.
   
  Update:
   Quote: 





merck said:


> I am new to high end audio ... I have never heard the difference between an amped headphone and just one that is plugged in to the music device.





   
  Completely missed this detail.
_Please make an effort to audition some equipment before you start buying them_.


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## mark2410

btw if thats a 5.5G ipod then youll wont to keep a hold of it.  get a line out dock to it and then try an amp.  then say hello to the treble detail that was supposed to be there.
   
  you know there are gateway drugs, things like the FiiO E5 to give you a taste of what an amp can do.


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## Mad Max

Quote: 





mark2410 said:


> btw if thats a 5.5G ipod then youll wont to keep a hold of it.  get a line out dock to it and then try an amp.  then say hello to the treble detail that was supposed to be there.
> 
> you know there are gateway drugs, things like the _Minibox-ES_ to give you a taste of what an amp can do.


 

 fixed your typo


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## mark2410

at £100 id hope the minibox was slighltly better than just entry level


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## b0wl1ng

Depends on the portable amp, depends on the headphones, a class A portable amp will make for a marked improvement in sound quality for a lot of IEMs and a huge improvement with full sized cans.
  This has been my experience with all IEMs and full sized open and closed headphones that I  have used.


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## koolkat

Isn't Class A and Class B of the same quality? Most amps are built on class B because it's easier.
  I think that's what the project sourcebook says.. Hm.


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## qusp

Quote: 





akabeth said:


> Exactly.
> 
> To OP, I'd much rather have you spend your time and money on acquiring better source material and have that ripped in lossless format for your iPod.
> Nowadays I just stick an earbud or ksc into whatever source I'm carrying. No amps, no fat wires, no unwanted attention, no hassle.
> ...


 
   OP it really doesnt have to be a hassle, or bulky, but until you have cans that will benefit i wouldnt worry


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## qusp

Quote: 





b0wl1ng said:


> Depends on the portable amp, depends on the headphones, a class A portable amp will make for a marked improvement in sound quality for a lot of IEMs and a huge improvement with full sized cans.
> This has been my experience with all IEMs and full sized open and closed headphones that I  have used.


 


  and what class A portable amp would you be talking about? resistor biasing is a pretty crude method if thats what you mean and most high quality modern opamps will actually not like it very much. high quality class AB is running in Class A for any time it matters. Class A is ideal, but I dont believe its a HUGE improvement over well done AB, not at all. class B on the other hand is totally different, not the same at all, so if thats what your text book says koolkat, then someone needs to educate the educators.
  basically it means that the devices are biased in a way that means they are always on/conducting for the whole waveform, so any signal will pass right through. terribly inefficient though, as it means the amp consumes the same amount of power whether its playing silence or full volume.


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## Mad Max

Quote: 





mark2410 said:


> at £100 id hope the minibox _is much_ better than just entry level


 

 fixed your typo  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  It is a superb amplifier, easily competitive with the best.


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## estreeter

I still think a lot of people come here looking for an 'amplifier', when what they REALLY want is an equaliser with inbuilt amplification - Digizoid recognised that and the rest is history.


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## Mad Max

Quote: 





estreeter said:


> I still think a lot of people come here looking for an 'amplifier', when what they REALLY want is a cheap, tube-rollable amplifier with Miku Hatsune on the face plate.


 

 fixed your typo  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  just kidding!


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## koolkat

Hi, hello. I have a question, sorry for thread jacking.
   
  Question: Will connecting an amp to a headphone jack, *without* bypassing the internal amp, make any noticeable differences in the sound quality?


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## NA Blur

Quote: 





koolkat said:


> Hi, hello. I have a question, sorry for thread jacking.
> 
> Question: Will connecting an amp to a headphone jack, *without* bypassing the internal amp, make any noticeable differences in the sound quality?


 

 It is going to take whatever signal you give it and amplify it through its own circuitry.  It pretty much defeats the point if one of the components is not the same quality as the other.  Put a crappy signal into a good amp you still are going to get a pretty crappy signal out.


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## koolkat

Well I like to think that my laptop has a good dac/soundchip, since the sound coming off it is amazing compared to my portable music players (PSP and Motorola Defy),
  but my laptop doesn't have line out. It has a headphone out I believe (black ring). Uncle Erik said something about an optical out but I'm not sure what that means either.. I guess I'll get an amp as an investment for the future.


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## NA Blur

Yeah you can run the mini out on your laptop to an amp.  You will definitely get more extension and faster transients in your music.  As far as the DAC inside your computer if you like it then no need to change it.  I know most external DAC's are much better than most internal DAC's inside Windows based machines, but the DAC inside most MAC's these days are actually pretty nice.  I know on my PC I never use the internal DAC if I can help it.  I usually use it when I am using my surround sound speakers and not headphones.


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## koolkat

I'm running a Windows 7 Acer laptop actually. It has the Dolby Home Theater v3 which changes the sound output a little.
  I guess I'll have to connect the amp to line out for surround speakers (black) since I don't have the line out.


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## Dreaming Of A Better ...

i was curious what difference would an amp make so i've done a little comparison.
   
  re-262:  Burson HA-160D vs Sansa Clip+ , 
   
  i've compared 4 tracks (FLAC) and  the test took me about 20 minutes. i had the same tracks on my pc and clip+, both in flac. (clip+ was rockboxed if it makes any difference)  volume was matched using my ears only.
   
  i have to admit that i was really surprised by the results (as 262's are supposed to be really hard to drive.)
   
  the difference was very small (if there was any at all), the bass was slightly more controlled and the soundstage feels tiny bit  bigger. 
   
  i'd be really disappointed if i spent money for a portable amp and only hear such a tiny improvement, especially at the cost of decreased portability.


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## NA Blur

Like I mentioned earlier the Total Bithead by headroom is really nice because you can power it via USB. No need for batteries at all if you have your PC handy. It will totally bypass your PC's sound card / internal DAC and amplify it at the same time. To me the differences were quite significant. The noise of your various PC components goes completely away when you listen to the bithead. Without it I hear my house ( high pitched sound ) and CPU clock ( constant bleep bloop ).
   
  Perhaps see if a friend has one you can borrow and see if you like it.


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## mikeaj

Quote: 





koolkat said:


> Hi, hello. I have a question, sorry for thread jacking.
> 
> Question: Will connecting an amp to a headphone jack, *without* bypassing the internal amp, make any noticeable differences in the sound quality?


 
   
  Yes it's possible and quite realistic, but probably only noticeable for certain headphones and with certain sources.
   
  If your source has like 8 ohms output impedance or sucks at driving low impedance loads at higher volumes, that's mostly a non-issue if you plug that into an external amplifier, which will have much larger input impedance than headphones and thus will be much easier to drive.  Then the the effective output impedance will be pretty much whatever the external amp has.
  
  For those IEMs that vary from the single digit impedances at some frequencies to say 80 ohms at others, yeah, that will make a big difference to have a close-to-zero output impedance with your external amplifier, as opposed to 8 ohms output impedance or so.
   
   
  Anyway, point still stands that the vast majority of the time you're better off just upgrading the IEMs/headphones though.


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## Zuqi

It depends, difference doesn't always means improvement.
   
  When I tried my Grado HF2 with pico amp, it doesn't sound much different, maybe 10%, but this 10% make a huge improvement on how much I like this cans, although I didn't have any other phones at that time, I still barely use it, but after I got the amp and paired it with HF2, I almost listen to it everyday.
   
  Paired with er4p, the different is quite subtle, around 5%? but its more like different rather than improvement, with pico, er4p sounds a bit refined, sweeter and slightly bigger soundstage, but it doesn't make it sound better to me, I still prefer the sound strait out from an ipod.


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## MrDave

I was looking at making an AC powered PIMETA or something similar to power my RE0s at work instead of using my 160GB iPod 6G. Given the information here, and considering I work in a reasonably noisy environment (lots of test equipment with small fast fans), it's probably safe to say I wouldn't notice a difference worth investing the time in, correct?


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## estreeter

I will concede that my 262s sound better from the E9 than from any of my portable amps - still find it odd that we need that much horsepower to drive a pair of IEMs to anything resembling their potential, but then the internal amp in my iPods is nothing to write home about. As mentioned earlier, its much easier to just buy another pair of phones than start spending money on a succession of amps.


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## Mad Max

Quote: 





estreeter said:


> I will concede that my 262s sound better from the E9 than from any of my portable amps - still find it odd that we need that much horsepower to drive a pair of IEMs to anything resembling their potential, but then the internal amp in my iPods is nothing to write home about. As mentioned earlier, its much easier to just buy another pair of phones than start spending money on a succession of amps.


 

 Everything I own sounds best out of my desktop rig.  It's not that you _need_ all that power, it's just that 262 scales well.  In other words, you got yourself a good IEM there, sir.
  Except TF10.  That one improved more by upgrading my DAC than plugging it into my desktop amplifier.


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## crepuscular457

I currently run my grado sr80's from a homebuilt cmoy and a generic mp3 player. Before building I wasnt sure it was worth the time, effort, and money. Let me just say that adding a portable headphone amp took them to their maximum potential, which was so much more than what i was getting out of them from my computer (which has a very nice sound card feeding to a denon receiver). They now have a soundstage which i didnt think the 80's were capable of, there is more detail, and there is more bass without sacrificing highs and mids. So anyone wondering if a headphone amp will be much of an improvement over no amp...DO IT. $40 - $60 is well worth the upgrade in sound.


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## Foress

do IEMs pair better with a DAC than an amp?


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## HiFlight

foress said:


> do IEMs pair better with a DAC than an amp?




You need both for digital sources, it's not a question of one or the other.


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