# Power Cables... Really?



## Dookky

Seriously though, why would you ever consider replacing your power cord with and aftermarket power cord. I can understand wanting to make one yourself, there's an enjoyment factor there, but buying an incredibly expensive power cord with silver contacts and diamond studded earrings just sounds CRAZY to me. From my understanding, there is no way your power is going to be any "cleaner" by having one of these cables. If you're power is dirty coming from your socket (which is highly likely) then a cable is worthless, invest in a AC/DC converter. Even if your fifty feet away from your socket that can't compare to the hundreds of feet of solid core copper in your walls, not to mention the cables going to your closest transformer. Am I missing something here?


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## feverfive

Let's get ready to rumble..


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## BIG POPPA

WOW......


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## El_Doug

welcome to the world of hi-fi audio:  where any excuse to pay more is embraced


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## JamesL

[size=medium]The short answer.. the last few feet of cable "does something" to the power.
   
  How?
  Well, you see... certain audiophiles have superhuman senses, can defy logic, and have enough money to do so.​[/size]

   ​


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## IPodPJ

Until you try it, how can you possibly know one way whether or not it has an effect?  You don't have to spend massive amounts of money on one either to see if you will hear a difference.  Price and performance do not always go hand in hand.
   
  I have a power regenerator and I can say even with it, different power cords have varying impact on my components.  Some I choose to use stock power cords on, some I choose to use aftermarket.  I've tried over 40 cords.  Some have little to no impact over a stock cord, some have moderate impact, and some have tremendous advantages, depending on the component they are connected to.


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## Omega17TheTrue

The only thing that defy logic is people claiming something won't change the sound even before trying it, changing elements are a part of the fun, a safe and easy way to possibly improve the sound and sometime just a way to spend their money to own something supposely "better".
   
  Why a power cable idea is crazy when it is almost completely accepted by everyone that capacitors (like all elements) color the sound ?
   
  Just unplug your power cable and realise how important this element is.


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## plonter

I can see the importance of a good power cord,because i can also see (and hear) the importance of a good power supply.


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## JamesL

Quote: 





ipodpj said:


> Until you try it, how can you possibly know one way whether or not it has an effect?


 

 Ok sorry, I can't possibly know.

  
  Quote: 





omega17thetrue said:


> The only thing that defy logic is people claiming something won't change the sound even before trying it,


 
   
  huh?  what in the world are you saying?
  using logic means I can say.. "i can come to this conclusion, because this, this, this, this and this is true"
  Its not foolproof, but its how I get by in my daily life.
   
   
  Quote: 





> changing elements are a part of the fun, a safe and easy way to possibly improve the sound and sometime just a way to spend their money to own something supposely "better".
> 
> Why a power cable idea is crazy when it is almost completely accepted by everyone that capacitors (like all elements) color the sound ?
> 
> Just unplug your power cable and realise how important this element is.


 
   
  If you have fun doing it, by all means.  I can't exactly say its my definition of fun though.. and I certainly wouldn't pay for it =/
   
  Most people that actually know what a capacitor does, and how to implement them correctly compares them in crossover networks, DC blocking position, or in some other application directly in the signal path.  Capacitors have measurable data concluding that they do degenerate the original signal.  Also, the capacitor they review are not following 5000 other crappier capacitors right before it.  thirdly, a signal that goes through a capacitor isn't rectified, filtered, regulated, "cleaned up" right after it goes through the capacitor (else you'll just damage your headphones).  fourthly, fifthly, sixthly, seventhly and eightly - you're not listening to the power supply, the psrr of a equipment measures how much of the power supply noise is attenuated, "I'm not even going to get into the cable debate", not accepted by everyone, power cable manufacturers don't actually know what makes a power cable "sound better", and capacitors used in a circuit more often times than not is purposefully intended to change the signal, where cables are typically not designed to change the signal.
  Even comparing power supply capacitors, you can use half the points I posted above.


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## Dookky

The last thing I'll say is this, once I get my little dot amp I'll try out another DIY cable (I like making cables, so no burden there). I'm not writing it off until I try it, it just doesn't make any sense at the moment.
   
  EDIT: LOL thanks for those replies JamesL, me and you... on the same page.


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## Happy Camper

Some can make a difference, the issue is the value to difference. High dollar cords are targeted for those who see $ as a measure of performance or elitism. I was in your shoes until I had the opportunity to try a cord on my gear. You can usually tell immediately if it will help or not. Amps seem to benefit the most.


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## weibby

so lets get this straight first,
  you didn't try it first, even with a simple cheap 14 awg cable into cheap marinco or hubbell plugs and try to dismiss it based upon a gut feeling.


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## Dookky

No, I'm basing it on 4 years of education and logic


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## 9pintube

Quote: 





happy camper said:


> Some can make a difference, the issue is the value to difference. High dollar cords are targeted for those who see $ as a measure of performance or elitism. I was in your shoes until I had the opportunity to try a cord on my gear. You can usually tell immediately if it will help or not. Amps seem to benefit the most.


 

 Happy Camper is "Spot On Again"!!!!  For ME it was (I Built, I changed, and I heard......) and what I heard was cleaner/Blacker.......But you really must try several types of PCables, some help some "color" the sound negatively....JMO after yrs of trials and smiles


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## MacedonianHero

Of all the power cables I've heard and owned, I find the PS Audio cables the best bang for your buck sonically and top notch construction wise.


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## maverickronin

Quote:


weibby said:


> so lets get this straight first,
> you didn't try it first, even with a simple cheap 14 awg cable into cheap marinco or hubbell plugs and try to dismiss it based upon a gut feeling.


 
    
  Quote:


dookky said:


> No, I'm basing it on 4 years of education and logic


 

 Plus everything man has discovered about electricity and physics.  The thing is, when you propose something that contradicts most of what people a lot smarter than you or me have spent centuries of painstaking research to discover, then the burden of proof lies on you.  Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.  Do I have to get Carl Sagan's invisible dargon out of my garage?
   
  I think that's about as far as I can go without mentioning The Topic Which Must Not Be Discussed.


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## bridge8989

I dont get it. Do you guys rewire the cabling in the house and to the power plant too?


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## maverickronin

Quote:


bridge8989 said:


> I dont get it. Do you guys rewire the cabling in the house and to the power plant too?


 

 Yeah, don't forget that power lines aren't even made of copper.  They're aluminum!
   





   
  Shock!  Horror!


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## DaveBSC

Try one and listen, or be content with the $3 piece of crap that comes in the box. Why are these arguments rehashed over and over and over? The "science" says that just about everything should sound the same. Your CD player, your amplifier, certainly your speaker cables and interconnects, none of it should make any difference at all. So buy the dirt cheapest CD player you can find, digital is digital, bits are bits, as long as the signal doesn't drop out, the sound will be identical to a $60K belt driven Burmester. As long as your amplifier isn't clipping or otherwise producing distortion, it will sound identical to a $20K Krell Evolution, so save a lot of money there too. Use home depot bulk wire for everything, and of course, the cheapest powercords with molded plastic connectors available.
   
  Enjoy the "sound" that results.


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## aimlink

Quote: 





davebsc said:


> Try one and listen, or be content with the $3 piece of crap that comes in the box. Why are these arguments rehashed over and over and over? The "science" says that just about everything should sound the same. Your CD player, your amplifier, certainly your speaker cables and interconnects, none of it should make any difference at all. So buy the dirt cheapest CD player you can find, digital is digital, bits are bits, as long as the signal doesn't drop out, the sound will be identical to a $60K belt driven Burmester. As long as your amplifier isn't clipping or otherwise producing distortion, it will sound identical to a $20K Krell Evolution, so save a lot of money there too. Use home depot bulk wire for everything, and of course, the cheapest powercords with molded plastic connectors available.
> 
> Enjoy the "sound" that results.


 

 x2!!!


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## Lenni

WORD!
http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=19653


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## High_Q

Quote:


lenni said:


> WORD!
> http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=19653


 

 That link screams credibility(sarcasm).


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## aimlink

Quote: 





high_q said:


> Quote:
> 
> That link screams credibility(sarcasm).


 

 Gotta fight fire with fire.  Extremism against extremism.  This is the sad part about it.


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## maverickronin

Quote: 





aimlink said:


> Gotta fight fire with fire.  Extremism against extremism.  This is the sad part about it.


 

 And truth with lies, apparently.


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## haloxt

Insightful article, Lenni, thanks for sharing. I understand the author's message but I must say his vindictive writing style is probably the worst way to try to express controversial opinions to a wide audience. Most of his statements require a lot of book reading or personal experience to verify or disprove, so only people who already know what he's talking about or those who trust blindly may agree, while the general public has no inclination to research if what he says is right or wrong and gladly think he's just a crazy canadian. When writing an article read by the general public it's important to explain things one at a time and tackle contradictions one at a time, not make sweeping statements that require a complete disbelief of conventional explanations in order to make sense. The same is true for power cables, but the question remains, is the general public really interested in how power cables work? Or do they just like to make fun of audiophiles and aftermarket cable manufacturers the same way they like to make fun of conspiracy theorists?


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## BIG POPPA

OP just needs to go to a meet and try stuff out. Opinions change sometimes at meets.


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## bridge8989

Quote: 





davebsc said:


> Try one and listen, or be content with the $3 piece of crap that comes in the box. Why are these arguments rehashed over and over and over? The "science" says that just about everything should sound the same. Your CD player, your amplifier, certainly your speaker cables and interconnects, none of it should make any difference at all. So buy the dirt cheapest CD player you can find, digital is digital, bits are bits, as long as the signal doesn't drop out, the sound will be identical to a $60K belt driven Burmester. As long as your amplifier isn't clipping or otherwise producing distortion, it will sound identical to a $20K Krell Evolution, so save a lot of money there too. Use home depot bulk wire for everything, and of course, the cheapest powercords with molded plastic connectors available.
> 
> Enjoy the "sound" that results.


 

 there are plenty of different methods for converting digital to analog/amplification that give different results.  stop bsing and take a digital signal processing course before you make stuff up.  I have yet to take a class about cabling.


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## fhuang

just go wireless


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## Lenni

Yeah, you are absolutely correct about that. not the best link to get the point across. thanks for pointing that out. I just gooled “science lies” and this site came up. I knew it was sort of bordering on extremism, but it was interesting to read their points of view, so I posted it anyway. I’m not anti-science, I just don’t believe everything science says; the same way I don’t believe everything religion says. I rather trust my own instincts... and my bs'ometer.
   
  Thanks for the input
  
  Quote: 





haloxt said:


> Insightful article, Lenni, thanks for sharing. I understand the author's message but I must say his vindictive writing style is probably the worst way to try to express controversial opinions to a wide audience. Most of his statements require a lot of book reading or personal experience to verify or disprove, so only people who already know what he's talking about or those who trust blindly may agree, while the general public has no inclination to research if what he says is right or wrong and gladly think he's just a crazy canadian. When writing an article read by the general public it's important to explain things one at a time and tackle contradictions one at a time, not make sweeping statements that require a complete disbelief of conventional explanations in order to make sense. The same is true for power cables, but the question remains, is the general public really interested in how power cables work? Or do they just like to make fun of audiophiles and aftermarket cable manufacturers the same way they like to make fun of conspiracy theorists?


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## Dookky

Quote: 





bridge8989 said:


> I dont get it. Do you guys rewire the cabling in the house and to the power plant too?


 

 LOL, seriously. I've worked in the ultility industry for a little while now and that stuff out there can be a NIGHTMARE, granted it's far better than most countries.


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## Rdr. Seraphim

Every time I go wireless my equipment just goes blank. No blinky lights, tubes don't light up, nuttin'! Good S/N though. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
  Quote: 





fhuang said:


> just go wireless


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## JamesL

Quote: 





rdr. seraphim said:


> Every time I go wireless my equipment just goes blank. No blinky lights, tubes don't light up, nuttin'! Good S/N though.


 

 your capacitor bank isn't large enough =)
   
  and your s/n ratio would go down, not up..


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## Dookky

Wouldn't it tend towards infinity?


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## Rdr. Seraphim

Asymptotically!


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## maverickronin

Quote: 





rdr. seraphim said:


> Every time I go wireless my equipment just goes blank. No blinky lights, tubes don't light up, nuttin'! Good S/N though.


 

 SNR 0/0
   
  UNDEFINED: DIVIDE BY 0 ERROR


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## Rdr. Seraphim

Now I'm dredging really, really old history from my memory banks, but isn't the limit of a derivative of 0/0 = 1?  E.g. sin(x)/x as x approaches 0? Or is it inderterminate? Ok, now I gotta get out, 'cause I'm really way over my head! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ('Scotty: Capt'n, I can't hold 'er together much longer!)
   
  All I know is that when I go wireless, all I get is nuttin'! 
   
  Y' all carry on...


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## High_Q

I thought S/N applies to the receiver end of the transmission.  Its one of the specs of receiver performance.  It depends on the receiver's components, good or bad. Like noisier preamp would decrease the ratio at the end where the signal is demodulated.


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## elogical

I hate to add to the battle here since I'm undecided on this myself, don't understand enough about it to make a claim to either direction.  I'm curious if anyone has any links to tests or studies that show how this can have a difference though since the logic points so strongly against this. I'm not looking for a fight, I'd genuinely like to read it. I understand the idea of having the correct gauge wire with good connections. I also understand how a power conditioner or UPS can ensure clean power at the right voltage if you have issues with the power from the utility source. What I can't even begin to comprehend is how the "last few feet" of cable make a difference when everything going to the utility company is just aluminum. The logic in piecing together a good setup tells me that it's only as good as the weakest link, and in this case the weakest link is definitely not inside the house whether you use high quality cables or not.
   
   
  Are you guys referring to power cables in general, going to everything? The only one I can maybe see making a difference is a decent cable from a power conditioner to the components, but not if the devices are plugged into a mid-priced surge protector.
   
  As far as not knocking it till I've tried it, that will unfortunately have to wait. The rest of my setup isn't anything near where this is even a consideration.


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## eucariote

[size=medium]

  Quote: 





aimlink said:


> Gotta fight fire with fire.  Extremism against extremism.  This is the sad part about it.





   
 [size=medium]I say just make a good case for your cause, because if it is true you will prevail.  That author is a bitter physicist kicked out from his university, saying that modern medicine has not helped save lives.   I work in a medical school (and so recognize that I am not qualified to step into his field and make sweeping statements about the failures of physics in the last 50 years) and have three words for him: tissue plasminogen activator.  Strokes are the 3rd biggest cause of death in the U.S.- but a drug approved in 1996 that dissolves clots can completely stop the massive death of brain tissue.  And there are many many many more examples.  You would never deny yourself this treatment so I don't think you really mean what you say...
   
  Why not hitch your wagon on sound reason and evidence instead?
   
  ^ More to the point of the thread, to answer the question above, there has been a recent thread that extensively discusses that issue.​[/size]
​[/size]


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## Todd R

Quote: 





dookky said:


> Seriously though, why would you ever consider replacing your power cord with and aftermarket power cord. I can understand wanting to make one yourself, there's an enjoyment factor there, but buying an incredibly expensive power cord with silver contacts and diamond studded earrings just sounds CRAZY to me. From my understanding, there is no way your power is going to be any "cleaner" by having one of these cables. If you're power is dirty coming from your socket (which is highly likely) then a cable is worthless, invest in a AC/DC converter. Even if your fifty feet away from your socket that can't compare to the hundreds of feet of solid core copper in your walls, not to mention the cables going to your closest transformer. Am I missing something here?


 
   
  Remember you're dealing with AC, so that "last 6 feet" is also the "first 6 ft" of cable too (an extension of your transformer leads).
  That means a good quality aftermarket cord is shielded against and can drain off incoming EMI & RF, and it will also prevent radiating it out to other power cords and components in your system!
   
  Want to try something fun?
 Get one of these current/voltage detectors that you use to trace wires in your wall (maybe you already have one). Run it past your stock power cords and it will light up & buzz just like the wires in your wall will.
  Now pass it along a nice aftermarket power cord, it will be silent. (it is on all the cords I own or have tried)
  Noise reduction..... better sound follows 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Story from a long time ago....
  I had a friend over listening to music. I excused myself for a moment to swap power cords on the amp (didn't tell him I was testing anything, or "hey, check out the difference...")
  After I fired things back up & played the same song again he said to me, "you know, I always thought you were full of s..t telling me power cords made a difference, but the soundstage just went from [..here..] to [.......here.......] when you changed cords."
   
  Personally I feel it's easier to hear things like this in a speaker based system, but it also has merit in a headphone system.


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## Head Injury

Quote: 





todd r said:


> Noise reduction..... better sound follows


 

 Source? After all, it's converted to DC by the amp before it drives the headphones.
   
  Your story is still flawed if he saw you changing the cables, whether you told him it was a "test" or not. The very fact that you changed cables for him after making it clear in the past that you believe in a difference hinted that you expected him to hear a difference, too. So placebo or poor audio memory could have easily taken over and convinced him of an improvement.


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## Todd R

Quote: 





head injury said:


> Source? After all, it's converted to DC by the amp before it drives the headphones.
> 
> Your story is still flawed if he saw you changing the cables, whether you told him it was a "test" or not. The very fact that you changed cables for him after making it clear in the past that you believe in a difference hinted that you expected him to hear a difference, too. So placebo or poor audio memory could have easily taken over and convinced him of an improvement.


 
   
  He could have also just as easily said the sound got worse too, now couldn't he? He had no idea what the cables were, only that I changed them.

 Sigh...
  Just try it.


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## High_Q

Quote: 





todd r said:


> Remember you're dealing with AC, so that "last 6 feet" is also the "first 6 ft" of cable too (an extension of your transformer leads).
> That means a good quality aftermarket cord is shielded against and can drain off incoming EMI & RF, and it will also prevent radiating it out to other power cords and components in your system!


 
  You mention EMI & RF noise.  So, you are worried about noise picked up on cable that transmits AC power?  You know it gets regulated later on right?  I would be more concerned about getting the best rectrifying circuit.  And remember boys and girls, engineers actually think about noise when they are designing stuff.  What part of the circuit does noise have most effect?  Notice, I didn't say cable?


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## Rdr. Seraphim

Quote: 





todd r said:


> Remember you're dealing with AC, so that "last 6 feet" is also the "first 6 ft" of cable too (an extension of your transformer leads).
> That means a good quality aftermarket cord is shielded against and can drain off incoming EMI & RF, and it will also prevent radiating it out to other power cords and components in your system!
> 
> Want to try something fun?
> ...


 
   
  Good basic test Todd! 
   
  I use aftermarket Power Cords on all my music equipment, currently from Harmonic Technology (AC-10), but due to a recent upgrade on the source side of things was considering something from Kaplan (maybe the entry H.E.). I've always noticed dramatic changes in my "bigger" rig via my (then) Merlin TSM-MXe's (noticed Bobby's stuff on your site and couldn't help myself 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
   
Dookky, rather than finding out what everyone else's opinion is on the matter (because everyone has one), search out a a local dealer who's willing to do a "try before you buy" program and give it a whirl. Nice thing on the AC power cord side of things is that the effect is immediate, and you really don't need to let things "burn in" like IC's or speaker cables.


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## Todd R

Quote: 





high_q said:


> You mention EMI & RF.  So, you are worried about noise picked up on cable that transmits AC power?  You know it gets regulated later on right?


 

 Worried? Well can be an issue. Regulation can be really elaborate or really simple, depends on the design. I've built several amps so I know you can take it to whatever level you feel is necessary.
   
  I'm not going to get sucked into one of these endless debates with you guys who refuse to even try something because they KNOW it can't work.
  I'm just posting my experiences and hoping someday one of you is curious enough to just give it a try and see for yourself.


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## High_Q

Also, How much power do you think EMI and RF (wireless transmission) has compared power transmitted through a power cable?  There should be a significant difference.  In conclusion, how much effect does EMI and RF have on power cable?  Not enough to effect the AC power which should be rectified to DC to biased the amp.  I think you want to be concerned about EMI and RF for DC power or very low powered signals.


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## maverickronin

Quote:


todd r said:


> Want to try something fun?
> Get one of these current/voltage detectors that you use to trace wires in your wall (maybe you already have one). Run it past your stock power cords and it will light up & buzz just like the wires in your wall will.
> Now pass it along a nice aftermarket power cord, it will be silent. (it is on all the cords I own or have tried)
> Noise reduction..... better sound follows


 
   
  And you're still wrong.  That fancy cable has a braided shield which intercepts all the RFI that the power cord may be emanating and dumps it to earth.  It does not reduce or attenuate the noise.  It just keeps it from escaping the cable.  All that noise is delivered directly into the component's power supply.  Also note that your fancy DAC/amp/SACD player/whatever very probably has a grounded metal chassis.  Therefore the RFI will be absorbed by the chassis and dumped to earth anyway.  Note that the total noise reaching the component is still the same regardless of the type of wire used.
   
  I think, I will out of intellectual honesty, concede one situation where a fancy, shielded power cable may be able to help.  If you've got a tube amp which leaves its tubes in the open air, just waiting to be snapped off and broken, and you are not using mil-spec tubes which have superior noise rejection, then it is at least possible for the unshielded cable to emit enough RFI to affect the tubes.  I don't think this would terribly likely, unless you drape the power cords over the tubes, but it is at least possible.  Of course you only need a $5-10 IEC cable with a braided shield to do that job as well as anything else.


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## aimlink

Quote: 





eucariote said:


> [size=medium]
> I say just make a good case for your cause, because if it is true you will prevail.  That author is a bitter physicist kicked out from his university, saying that modern medicine has not helped save lives.   I work in a medical school (and so recognize that I am not qualified to step into his field and make sweeping statements about the failures of physics in the last 50 years) and have three words for him: tissue plasminogen activator.  Strokes are the 3rd biggest cause of death in the U.S.- but a drug approved in 1996 that dissolves clots can completely stop the massive death of brain tissue.  And there are many many many more examples.  You would never deny yourself this treatment so I don't think you really mean what you say...
> [size=medium]
> Why not hitch your wagon on sound reason and evidence instead?
> ...


 

 I participated in that very thread you cited.  A lot too.  There are reasonable folk there and extremists as well... on both sides.


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## Todd R

Whatever guys....
  Go ahead an ignore a place where more performance can be gained in your system. I'm out


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## Dookky

Quote: 





todd r said:


> Remember you're dealing with AC, so that "last 6 feet" is also the "first 6 ft" of cable too (an extension of your transformer leads).
> That means a good quality aftermarket cord is shielded against and can drain off incoming EMI & RF, and it will also prevent radiating it out to other power cords and components in your system!
> 
> Want to try something fun?
> ...


 
   
  I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean by the "last 6 feet is the first 6 feet" comment.
   
  Also, with the non-contact voltage tester have you tried running along wires that come OUT of the female end of the power cord. So you would have
   
   
  Wall Outlet --> After Market PC--->short wires--->amp
   
  Or something like that? Or have you tried hooking up the PC to an oscilloscope as well as a regular PC to look at the waveforms coming out?


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## dvw

Use solar power. Problem solved. No power grid line, no noise and good for the enviroment.


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## Dookky

Quote: 





dvw said:


> Use solar power. Problem solved. No power grid line, no noise and good for the enviroment.


 

 ...except for the line running to your house, which first comes from an inverter, and before that it passes through a battery charging circuit. So it's technically only as smooth as your inverter.


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## maverickronin

Quote:


dookky said:


> ...except for the line running to your house, which first comes from an inverter, and before that it passes through a battery charging circuit. So it's technically only as smooth as your inverter.


 

 And because of that, you might as well just run everything off of UPSes.  Charge them from the wall like normal and unplug it from the wall when you're playing music to make sure like noise doesn't get through the AC to DC to AC conversion process.
   
  If you do go with the solar it will take you an awful long time to break even.  I don't think the cable-that-costs-as-much-as-a-car brigade would mind paying for it though.  If they want to put their money where their mouth is about being 'environmentally friendly' then they should use a class D amp.  Much more efficient!


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## Lex

Quote: 





dvw said:


> Use solar power. Problem solved. No power grid line, no noise and good for the enviroment.


 

 ^ This.
   
  A friend runs his entire home studio from solar panels and a pair of 12v gel batteries.


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## Head Injury

Quote: 





lex said:


> ^ This.
> 
> A friend runs his entire home studio from solar panels and a pair of 12v gel batteries.


 

 How's the instrument separation sound?


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## bridge8989

Quote: 





todd r said:


> Whatever guys....
> Go ahead an ignore a place where more performance can be gained in your system. I'm out


 

 You're delusional like the guy in your icon. Bye.


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## SP Wild

Quote: 





lenni said:


> WORD!
> http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=19653


 

 Nice link...I believe that all life form on earth evolved from some kinda bacteria......................................
   
  I remember writing an essay on global economics, criticising it on the basis of how simple it was to solve world hunger via logic and humanity and how the promises globalisation make are not being realised by most.  I failed.  Second go around, I praised globalisation and how it will make life on earth better off --- passed with distinction.  I became a motor mechanic after graduating.
  

  
  Quote: 





todd r said:


> Story from a long time ago....  I had a friend over listening to music. I excused myself for a moment to swap power cords on the amp (didn't tell him I was testing anything, or "hey, check out the difference...")
> After I fired things back up & played the same song again he said to me, "you know, I always thought you were full of s..t telling me power cords made a difference, but the soundstage just went from [..here..] to [.......here.......] when you changed cords."
> 
> Personally I feel it's easier to hear things like this in a speaker based system, but it also has merit in a headphone system.


 


 Soundstage, that's how I heard the difference.  As with analogue cables - wider lower mid / mid soundstage equates to a warmer cable.  A wider upper mid / treble soundstage equates to a brighter cable.  I believe cables, as with headphones, deal with "phasing anomalies" and electronic "resonances".  Nothing changes in terms of FR as far as cables are concerned.
  
  Quote: 





dookky said:


> ...except for the line running to your house, which first comes from an inverter, and before that it passes through a battery charging circuit. So it's technically only as smooth as your inverter.


 

 Stay away from fast switching inverters - high frequency hash is injected into the soundscape - very fatiguing to listen to.  Look out for a slow switching, pure sinewave inverter - these are "quieter"  with "blacker backgrounds" and sounded more musical to me.

  
  Quote: 





head injury said:


> How's the instrument separation sound?


 

 Better than ac mains without a doubt.


----------



## fhuang

Congratulation!  anit-cable guys won another round


----------



## BIG POPPA

Quote: 





bridge8989 said:


> You're delusional like the guy in your icon. Bye.


 
  I have organized many meets and proved cables make a difference, especially on my rig that really benefits from Power cables with rhodium connectors and Silver plated copper with my tube amp. Have another meet coming up to share some cables and other gear. What have you done to share your opinion besides using your keyboard? Todd R is a great Head-fier. Can't believe he got dissed like that???


----------



## Head Injury

Quote: 





big poppa said:


> proved cables make a difference


 

 I haven't seen this study. Care to share?


----------



## BIG POPPA

Come to the meets. One of the best ways to try things out.


----------



## maverickronin

Quote: 





big poppa said:


> Come to the meets. One of the best ways to try things out.


 

 If this wasn't the science-free forum...


----------



## Head Injury

No no. I don't mean try it out. I mean the proof you said you had. Which I imagine means solid, empirical scientific proof. If not, choose another word/phrase. "Formed the opinion that" or something.


----------



## BIG POPPA

Man if you really need scientific proof for audio, you will not get very far with your journey?? Somethings really just need a little advice and auditioning to be put in the right direction. My opinions are based on real world applications of spending money, DIYing, auditioning, DIYing some more, spending more money until I get the sound right. If you are looking for scientific proof to spend money you will not enjoy this hobby that much. Make some cables with different types of connectors and go from there. That is the first step. You can do it on the cheap. Ask the retailer what all the different metals in the connectors do and go from there. retailers and manufactures can be really helpful pointing you in the right direction in good cables for your rig.
  Quote: 





head injury said:


> No no. I don't mean try it out. I mean the proof you said you had. Which I imagine means solid, empirical scientific proof. If not, choose another word/phrase. "Formed the opinion that" or something.


----------



## bridge8989

This thread is about power cables, not cables in general.  If I worked retail and some sucker came up to me with $2k to spend on a power cable I would be ready with suggestions too.
  
  Quote: 





big poppa said:


> Man if you really need scientific proof for audio, you will not get very far with your journey?? Somethings really just need a little advice and auditioning to be put in the right direction. My opinions are based on real world applications of spending money, DIYing, auditioning, DIYing some more, spending more money until I get the sound right. If you are looking for scientific proof to spend money you will not enjoy this hobby that much. Make some cables with different types of connectors and go from there. That is the first step. You can do it on the cheap. Ask the retailer what all the different metals in the connectors do and go from there. retailers and manufactures can be really helpful pointing you in the right direction in good cables for your rig.


----------



## BIG POPPA

Be careful The guy who has 2K to spend on cables probably knows more about the cable he is looking for than you do. He is just looking for a good opinion to make sure he is right. I had a audio meeting with those type of guys last week as a guest. I make most of my own cables for my own personal use. Power, IC's, and Senn Cables. I prefer my own power cables at the moment. Power cables are pretty straight forward once you learn the metallurgy and the strenght and weakness's of the gear.
  
  Quote: 





bridge8989 said:


> This thread is about power cables, not cables in general.  If I worked retail and some sucker came up to me with $2k to spend on a power cable I would be ready with suggestions too.


----------



## Happy Camper

Those who scream loudest usually have the least to say.


----------



## haloxt




----------



## Farnsworth

What changes could i expect if i upgraded my power cable. Does it clean up the sound? or does it actually change the sound?


----------



## maverickronin

Quote: 





big poppa said:


> Man if you really need scientific proof for audio, you will not get very far with your journey??


 

 Because of course everyone knows faith has such an impressive track record of success.  All you need to do is take a quick listen to the Holy See's Stereo of Our Saviour to know The Truth.  You normally wouldn't expect such amazing sound from a 2000 year old wooden box, but if you just believe hard enough, you can hear the Choir of the Seraphim.


----------



## El_Doug

Audiophilia is a hobby, not a religious experience.  It is entirely possible to branch out into voodoo products, but it is also just as valid to learn about the science and engineering behind the gear, and work your way from there.  It is not blasphemous, nor does it dilute the validity or the enjoyment we get from headphones. 
   
  I very much enjoy the science behind audio reproduction.  I also buy based on my tastes in sound - otherwise youd see a BHSE, and certainly not HE90's, in my setup.  I do not feel the two must be mutually exclusive.  At the same time, I have tried many IC and a few power cable swaps - none have ever made a difference to me.  But even if they did, I would certainly want to double check my findings with either 1) a dbt (please dont hate me for bringing it up here), or 2) some real demonstrated scientific data from a reputable source (aka someone who doesnt sell, and is not affiliated with salesmen of, audio products). 
   
  There is certainly no pressure for you to heed any such evidence, and your own experience may very well prevail.  But stating that others are having an inferior "journey" is, quite frankly, pretentious and snarky. 
  
  Quote: 





big poppa said:


> Man if you really need scientific proof for audio, you will not get very far with your journey??


----------



## BIG POPPA

In a practical sense using a scientific method would be very cumbersome to try several cables out efficiently. It would hinder trying to audition cables in an audio shop. I get some like to use a scientific method to understand. IMO it is a waste of time in the real world upgrading your rig. Spend money, listen to the power cable, if it sounds great GOOD. Keep the cable. If it sounds bad, return it and try it again. Simple as that.
  
  Quote: 





el_doug said:


> Audiophilia is a hobby, not a religious experience.  It is entirely possible to branch out into voodoo products, but it is also just as valid to learn about the science and engineering behind the gear, and work your way from there.  It is not blasphemous, nor does it dilute the validity or the enjoyment we get from headphones.
> 
> I very much enjoy the science behind audio reproduction.  I also buy based on my tastes in sound - otherwise youd see a BHSE, and certainly not HE90's, in my setup.  I do not feel the two must be mutually exclusive.  At the same time, I have tried many IC and a few power cable swaps - none have ever made a difference to me.  But even if they did, I would certainly want to double check my findings with either 1) a dbt (please dont hate me for bringing it up here), or 2) some real demonstrated scientific data from a reputable source (aka someone who doesnt sell, and is not affiliated with salesmen of, audio products).
> 
> There is certainly no pressure for you to heed any such evidence, and your own experience may very well prevail.  But stating that others are having an inferior "journey" is, quite frankly, pretentious and snarky.


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





farnsworth said:


> What changes could i expect if i upgraded my power cable. Does it clean up the sound? or does it actually change the sound?


 

 IMO, expect objective changes in sounstaging - and at what frequency the staging changes at.  This in turn alters imaging and subjective frequency response.


----------



## haloxt

Quote: 





			
				BIG POPPA said:
			
		

> In a practical sense using a scientific method would be very cumbersome to try several cables out efficiently. It would hinder trying to audition cables in an audio shop. I get some like to use a scientific method to understand. IMO it is a waste of time in the real world upgrading your rig. Spend money, listen to the power cable, if it sounds great GOOD. Keep the cable. If it sounds bad, return it and try it again. Simple as that.


 

 Let us assume that blind cable tests are hard, but possible to pass, YET there is usually a consciously audible difference between cables as common as you hear mentioned on audiophile forums, it would follow that man gets in his own way when it comes to listening "critically" for whatever differences exist between cables while doing blind tests, but he is able to consciously discern a difference under more "ideal" circumstances. If this theory is true, it would actually facilitate one's conscious awareness of cable differences to practice blind tests, just like lab monkeys have to get over the fact that they are test subjects far from their natural environment.


----------



## Dookky

I feel like this could be tested with some common equipment. All one needs is an oscilloscope and a means to capture wave points on a computer (an A/D or simply plug it into your sound card and use audacity, after proper attenuation of course). Unfortunately I don't have enough money to buy an o-scope nor do I have a means to capture the waveform on a computer, YET.
   
  Take both a standard and an after market cord and hook it up to the o-scope, that way we can directly compare the waveforms.
  Next get those waveforms into a computer and we can run a Fourier transform and look at both spectrum.
   
  From what a professor told me, added harmonics in analog signals is what he considered to be the "warmth" people speak of. But, basically each spectrum and waveform should be different. That would be DEFINITIVE proof that a power cord COULD make a difference.
   
  My next concern was how much this would pass through a converter, and unfortunately my power electronics class was only an intro course, so we didn't get into this.
   
  DOES THAT SOUND LIKE A GOOD TEST?
   
  EDIT: Considering it should be a DC output there should be NO HARMONICS. But we all no that no converter is perfect and things like this pass through, not to mention the added noise from the switching elements (if its solid state anyway, I don't know about tube converters)


----------



## haloxt

Good test, I would make sure to choose a good variety of power cables though. Some 50 ft long, some with no cable, some very shielded, some unshielded and with a microwave next to it, etc.


----------



## slim.a

Quote: 





dookky said:


> I feel like this could be tested with some common equipment. All one needs is an oscilloscope and a means to capture wave points on a computer (an A/D or simply plug it into your sound card and use audacity, after proper attenuation of course). Unfortunately I don't have enough money to buy an o-scope nor do I have a means to capture the waveform on a computer, YET.
> 
> Take both a standard and an after market cord and hook it up to the o-scope, that way we can directly compare the waveforms.
> Next get those waveforms into a computer and we can run a Fourier transform and look at both spectrum.
> ...


 

 Nordost is already working on a method to measure the effect of power cords (and vibration control) on the performance of CD players, amps...
   
  They used a musical signal (and not simple sine waves) and compared the ouput of a CD player before and after treatment. You can find the results here: http://www.nordost.com/downloads/New%20Approaches%20To%20Audio%20Measurement.pdf
  Their measurement method is not very simple to replicate as it needs very good measuring equipment. The effects of the power cable that were measured were on the time domain and not the frequency domain (FR, THD, ...). That is why most traditional methods of measurements won't show any difference.

 So far, people have focused too much on the frequency domain (like the very simple RMAA tests) and didn't account for the time domain. Recent research, like the one done by Kunchur (see here: http://www.physics.sc.edu/kunchur/Acoustics-papers.htm), has shown that the time resolution of human ears is far greater than was suspected (or taken for granted by previous research).
 When doing his testing, he couldn't find a CD player that was good enough to generate the necessary test signals for his test. He had to use a high precision analog signal generator to do his test.
   
  That is to say, that with the wrong initial assumptions, it is easy to construct a test where there would be no discernable difference. In my opinion, using "common equipment" to measure the effects of power cables is pointless as it will only lead to inconclusive results at best.


----------



## Dookky

Indeed, now we need someone to do this! Or I suppose I could do it, I like buying equipment after all. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  EDIT: didn't see you're post slim, i'll give it a look see when I get a chance.


----------



## haloxt

Nordost and acuity also claimed to have measured differences in the frequency domain by using a sound with harmonics and testing power cords, vibration, and power filtering, so I still suggest testing how you originally wanted to, just make sure you have a few really screwed up cables.


----------



## slim.a

Quote: 





haloxt said:


> Nordost and acuity also claimed to have measured differences in the frequency domain by using a sound with harmonics and testing power cords, vibration, and power filtering, so I still suggest testing how you originally wanted to, just make sure you have a few really screwed up cables.


 

 But to measure those differences, they used very sophisticated equipment with good time domain performance. It is like jitter for example, Stereophile measures the jitter from the analog output of CD Players/DACs but they use an Audio Precision System 2 to do that. If they used a jittery AD (such as the one included in the emu 0404 usb), their results would be worthless.
  The measuring equipment has to be more precise than the phenomenon it is supposed to measure (I am just applying logic). If one is to make such experiments, I recommend using an AD with a known stable clock (such as DCS or Lavry) even if it seems overkill at first hand.
   
  I think that doing measurements is good but conducting improper measurements is worse than doing no measurements at all in my opinion.


----------



## maverickronin

Quote: 





slim.a said:


> So far, people have focused too much on the frequency domain (like the very simple RMAA tests) and didn't account for the time domain. Recent research, like the one done by Kunchur (see here: http://www.physics.sc.edu/kunchur/Acoustics-papers.htm), has shown that the time resolution of human ears is far greater than was suspected (or taken for granted by previous research).
> When doing his testing, he couldn't find a CD player that was good enough to generate the necessary test signals for his test. He had to use a high precision analog signal generator to do his test.
> 
> That is to say, that with the wrong initial assumptions, it is easy to construct a test where there would be no discernable difference. In my opinion, using "common equipment" to measure the effects of power cables is pointless as it will only lead to inconclusive results at best.


 

 Which doesn't have anything to do with power cords at all.  What it means is that a higher sample rate is more useful than originally thought.  To the power supply, there will be no difference between a chunky monoprice cable and a probably-costs-more-than-my-car Nordost cable.  If the device the monoprice cable is connected to is poorly shielded, then spending a few more buck for a shielded power cable may help.
   
  The point is, there is no suggested mechanism of action that will allow a simple power cable to change the waveform being sent through it, to any significant degree.  There will a tiny amount of heat lost to resistance.  If the cable is very poorly made or very long then inductance or capacitance could affect the mains waveform.  Or maybe its unshielded and you just forgot to turn of your HERF gun.  Even so, it will have much less effect then the tens of yards of romex in your walls, or the miles of powerlines between you and the local powerplant.  The people who design power supplies know the mains waveforms are ugly.  They make power supplies to deal with all but the very worst.  A proper power conditioner can make a difference, but an extra six feet of conductor, no matter how pure, will not.
   
  If Nordost substantiate their claims in front of some independent scientists, they'll be in for a financial windfall, since they will have either demonstrated the paranormal, or a new law of physics.


----------



## vhbaske

I am myself not an unbeliever in cables, but a true HATER of myths, but to be wise, good cables, ones not too expensive, are nice and fun to have. So this is a middle point among believers and unbelievers (after all, they want us to believe so we BUY, no?). I am also a tube hater , but have some tube amplifiers (DIY) in my desk.  I also bought a Phonitor (tube amps, you lose here) and has bought good cables on eBay (where else that cheap?). I am not going to have $5 cables in my Phonitor, eh? Consider this, remember that in the Middle Ages people believed that the Earth was flat? And that Witches were real? The truth is never given to the mob


----------



## haloxt

maverickronin, some audiophiles go so far as to get a dedicated AC line with very thick home wiring. Some go battery power, others use power regenerators, or big power filter. I notice a lot of "if's" in your post, some which admit some stock power cables may be insufficient. Also you assume that people always make psu's to try to deal with dirty power. Not all psu's are made the same, some are just simple ac/dc adapters.
   
  Sorry to keep arguing  but I do wonder if Nordost will benefit from their research. The cost of cable manufacturing will drop drastically when there is more demand, and when there is more demand, there will be more competition against Nordost. This lowering of price will occur for everything else this research may prove, assuming it does prove it. I am guessing they will get very little financial reward if they succeed, if I was them I'd bury it and maintain the mystique surround expensive cables, science be damned  what good did it ever do us.


----------



## slim.a

Quote: 





maverickronin said:


> Which doesn't have anything to do with power cords at all.  What it means is that a higher sample rate is more useful than originally thought.  To the power supply, there will be no difference between a chunky monoprice cable and a probably-costs-more-than-my-car Nordost cable.  If the device the monoprice cable is connected to is poorly shielded, then spending a few more buck for a shielded power cable may help.
> 
> The point is, there is no suggested mechanism of action that will allow a simple power cable to change the waveform being sent through it, to any significant degree.  There will a tiny amount of heat lost to resistance.  If the cable is very poorly made or very long then inductance or capacitance could affect the mains waveform.  Or maybe its unshielded and you just forgot to turn of your HERF gun.  Even so, it will have much less effect then the tens of yards of romex in your walls, or the miles of powerlines between you and the local powerplant.  The people who design power supplies know the mains waveforms are ugly.  They make power supplies to deal with all but the very worst.  A proper power conditioner can make a difference, but an extra six feet of conductor, no matter how pure, will not.
> 
> If Nordost substantiate their claims in front of some independent scientists, they'll be in for a financial windfall, since they will have either demonstrated the paranormal, or a new law of physics.


 

 You don't seem to understand what I was trying to say, so allow me to rephrase:
   
  If you won't to test the effect of a change in power cable, it is stupid to try and find a difference in a simple sine wave. What we listen to is not simple sine waves but a complex musical signal.

 So far, there is no easy way to measure a musical signal properly. If you look at simple measurements like RMAA, a poor sounding soundcard such as the emu 0404 usb might measure better in the frequency domain than the $27,000 Naim CD555 Cd player. The reason is pretty simple it doesn't cost more than $100 to make a DAC with a good frequency domain performance but it take a lot more to make one with a good time domain frequency. In fact, Kunchur wouldn't have needed to use higher sample rate to generate a proper signal from a CD player. A CD player such as the Naim CD that use R2R dac chips with good digital filters can in fact generate decent sine waves at high frequencies (contrary to sigma delta DACs - see here for example).
  
  Saying that "_there will be no difference between a chunky monoprice cable and a probably-costs-more-than-my-car Nordost cable_" is a stupid comment if:
  a/ you didn't measure it
  b/ you didn't even try it

 For lack of understanding and for close mindedness people believed for a long time that the earth was flat. More recently all CDs were supposed to sound the same (Perfect sound forever) until people started complaining and we discovered jitter.
   
  A fraction of audiophiles have been saying for some time that they noticed a difference between power cords (and vibration control devices). Nordost is trying to come up with a way to prove there is a measured difference (the same way we have ways to measure jitter today).
   
  Science is constantly evolving. Some assumptions that were considered being true a hundred years ago have been revised/updated today. If you want to believe there is 0 possibility that a power cord can affect the sound, good for you. Nobody is forcing to buy a Nordost power cord.
 Personally, I have found differences between power cords, so I will keep using the ones that improve the sound in my system. If at some point, measurements prove that what I am hearing is true then I would have spent my money wisely. If there is no proof (ever) that power cords can affect the sound, I still don't care as it allowed me (for whatever reason) to enjoy my system even more. The way, I see things I am aware of the risks of being "fooled" but I consider that the outcome in both cases is a win situation for me.

 Back to the topic of measuring the effect of power cords, if someone wants to do the measurement, better do them right.

 - Let's suppose that I am wrong, then we would have used over speced equipment for the test but we still would have good results.
  - Let's suppose that you are wrong, measuring a simple sine wave to incorrect results.
   
  Even if you don't agree with what I subjectively hear, the proper test conditions I suggested remain right.
   
  Anyway, I have said enough on the subject. If people wish to discuss further whether it is possible or not that power cords affect the sound (other than by subjective listening), it is probably better to move the discussion to the sound science forum.


----------



## Prog Rock Man

Here is a link to a link to the results of a long term power cable test run at Hifi Wigwam. An audiophile power cord, a DIY one and two identical kettle leads were covered with sheathing to disguise them and then sent from one forum member to another. At the end of the test there was no evidence that any could be differentiated accurately. A number of people claimed to hear differences, but some of those were between the identical kettle leads.
   
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=45432
   
  The likes of Nordost try to establish tests where they can find a measurable difference and link that to sound quality. They do that rather than run blind/ABX tests because they know they would be likely to fail such tests, which would be clearly bad for business.
   
  If there really was a difference between cables, we would be able to accurately and reliably hear the difference. But we cannot. It is not just blind tests which prove that. The fact that so many people report not hearing differences under sighted conditions and the disagreement between what the alleged difference is and how of a difference it is, suggests inconsistency. That inconsistency would not be there if Nordost cables really made a difference.


----------



## dvw

Here's an easy way to figure out if you need an expensive power cord or any kind of power tweak. Get someone to turn on/off a fluorescent light (the light bulb replacement type) in the next room. If you can tell the light is on or off by simply listen to the headphone, then you will need some type of a tweak.
   
  The fluorescent light is well known to generate RFI and odd harmonic to the power line. Because of this, the power company actually has to limit the current caused by this nonlinear loading.
   
  If you can detect this real change in the power condition by simply listening to the music, then either you have very sensitive hearing or the PSU will need some tweaking. But seriously, I don't think the fluorescent light or power cable will make any difference. At least no one yet has any issue with fluorescent light.


----------



## Prog Rock Man

Dvw, one thing I do stand by because you really can hear a difference is power conditioning. Without power conditioning I can hear hiss, with and I cannot. The circumstances you describe would suit a power conditioner more so than a power cord.
   
  I use two of the plug in types, both cost about £30.


----------



## haloxt

Quote:  





> If there really was a difference between cables, we would be able to accurately and reliably hear the difference.


 

 'Tis a lesson you should heed, Try, try again. If at first you don't succeed, Try, try again. Just kidding, I'm with slim.a when he says it's best not to do tests if you can't do it right. Not because I'm against pointless research, but because people like to make faulty conclusions. You falsely believe that if there is a difference it must be reliably heard. Wrong. That's like saying if a monkey could shoot a three pointer he should be able to do it consistently, when he only has to do it once, maybe once in a million attempts. Think about it.


----------



## maverickronin

@haloxt
   
  Let me rephrase concisely.  There is no good evidence that a properly constructed $20 power cable will cause an audio device powered through it to sound any different than it will sound when powered through a $20,000 power cable.
   
  I will define properly constructed as shielded enough to reject any household levels of RFI, and designed to prevent inductance and capacitance at the operating current and voltages.  A standard $1 power usually cord meets the second 2 requirements.  I do not regularly shop for power cords but, I assume it will not cost an extra $19,999 to add a braided and grounded shield.
   
  The reason I can dismiss Nordost's claims without personally testing them is the same reason I can dismiss fairies and dragons without an exhaustive search of the entire universe.  All the evidence suggests that such things exist only in people's imaginations.  You are correct that Nordost's claims could turn out to be correct after improved testing methodology is developed.  And I could find a fairy in my backyard tomorrow.  Unless I managed to capture it, and submit it for zoological (anthropological?) study or otherwise collect some firm evidence of its existence, I will not decry the disbelievers, sing the praises of our new fairy overlords, or otherwise expect anyone else to believe anything I have to say on the subject of fairies, nor will I begrudge those who say that others should ignore me and go about their business as if fairies did not exist.   My personal experience is not enough to prove the existence of fairies to anyone else but me, and if I spend the next several years searching for another fairy, and never find one, then I may come the realization that my perception has failed me and that I saw something which was not actually there.
   
  Nordost's claim about it's cables is a rather extraordinary one, and as such it requires extraordinary evidence.  Here's an example.  Let's say I tell you I own a dog.  It's a simple claim.  Many people own dogs, and why would I lie, it's nothing to brag about.  Now I claim I own a parrot.  Less common but still common enough.  You may want a little more evidence though.  Here's a nice high-res picture of my pet parrot.  Her name is Hikaru.  That would be plenty of evidence for most people.  What if I said I owned an elephant?  You'd at least want a good photo of me riding it down a residential street, or something else that's difficult to fake, and obviously not at a zoo.  If you lived nearby you'd want to come to house and see it in person.  Now what if I said I owned a fairy?  Who would believe me?  Pictures?  Obviously photoshoped.  Would you even waste your time to come over and look at it?  It couldn't be true after all.  Why bother?  Would anyone believe me unless I carried it around in a bottle, Legend of Zelda style, and shoved it in their face at the first opportunity?
   
  Nordost's claims are in the same category as fairies.  They are, in general more plausible, but the fact that they're selling you something instantly doubles (at least) the level of scrutiny required.  Regardless of whether a there is way to measure such differences properly, if they can be heard, they can be proven to exist in a properly controlled listening test.  The fact that Nordost does not provide loaner cables to proper researchers, for proper testing, suggests that they know that their cables do that perform as advertised.
   
  The reason my posts contain lots of "ifs" is because I do not claim to know The Truth.  I only claim to know what evidence the scientific method has so far revealed regarding what the truth may be.  I base my opinions on evidence, and as more evidence accumulates, my opinions will change with the evidence.  If Nordost does create a testing methodology to discern measurable and/or audible differences, and if independent researchers following the same methodology can achieve the same results, then I will have been proven wrong.  If that happens I will change my opinion and become a 'believer'.
   
  This is probably as far as I can go without violating the rules of this sub-forum, so I'll have to leave it at that.


----------



## haloxt

What nordost and acuity are doing is science in progress, albeit there is serious conflict of interest LOL. You claim to be a big defender of science, but I wonder, can you see how you are deterring scientific inquiry? If people want to keep proclaiming they speak for science and that the final word has been said about x y z... then fine, don't expect anything from me, or if you get anything out of me it would be out of pity at the poverty of modern man's scientific imagination. And since I follow Dr. Bronner's moral abc's, sigh I guess I'll always be giving my inane advice.
   
  I have my own theories about power cables, but I most certainly have not tested a fraction of them subjectively or objectively. But despite my many strong disagreements with what you've said, it is also my personal belief that power cables don't have to be expensive to be good. In fact, I believe no power cable or home wiring is better  something I'd like to try out but I'd likely fry myself to death trying to hardwire things together.


----------



## AudioCats

why discuss? It is so much easier to just ask your professor.


----------



## dvw

The Nordost test has been discussed here.
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/471315/some-scientific-data-on-isolation-power-and-cables


----------



## 9pintube

maverickronin and others,     No one said you couldn't use your "LAMP CORDS" There are several camps concerning cables and wires!  I think we know about the different sides many members are on, concerning this subject.............PS, nice parrot..


----------



## BIG POPPA

Quote: 





audiocats said:


> why discuss? It is so much easier to just ask your professor.


 
  Listen to this guy. Kevin tunes his gear with different cables. I have auditioned his gear.


----------



## Prog Rock Man

Quote: 





haloxt said:


> 'Tis a lesson you should heed, Try, try again. If at first you don't succeed, Try, try again. Just kidding, I'm with slim.a when he says it's best not to do tests if you can't do it right. Not because I'm against pointless research, but because people like to make faulty conclusions. You falsely believe that if there is a difference it must be reliably heard. Wrong. That's like saying if a monkey could shoot a three pointer he should be able to do it consistently, when he only has to do it once, maybe once in a million attempts. Think about it.


 

 To clarify my original post, I said reliably and consistently, by which I accepted there may be exceptions. Otherwise I would have said in all cases, every time. However, your monkey being able to shoot something once in a million attempts does not make me want to accept he can target shoot. I prefer to accept that your monkey cannot shoot and hit a target, unless by once in a blue moon, miraculous, fluke. 
   
  I reality, I would not go any where near an armed monkey.


----------



## High_Q

Quote: 





slim.a said:


> You don't seem to understand what I was trying to say, so allow me to rephrase:
> 
> If you won't to test the effect of a change in power cable, it is stupid to try and find a difference in a simple sine wave. What we listen to is not simple sine waves but a complex musical signal.
> 
> ...


 
  I am rather annoyed with your response.  Nothing in what you wrote have any lick of reasoning in it.  Its just bla bla bla $$ bla bla bla analogy(forced analogy, bad analogy is bad logic, using analogy to reason is very bad), this cost more, this cost little, don't compare the two. Thats what it comes down to.  And that stinks of very low reasoning skills.  And what you wrote about science is so stretch to overgeneralization, I can safely assume, you have very little experience with science.  You have no right to generalize science, you talk like you know enough science to talk so freely about it.  Unless you have a Phd in a science field, don't tread that territory, it makes you look very foolish.  Just because you have the hearsay knowledge of some equipment, doesn't make you an expert.  Its very foolish to think so.


----------



## Rdr. Seraphim

*High_Q*
   
  Please back off. Read some of Slim.a's other posts and I believe you'll find his approach reasoned and rational, as well as appreciated. No need to take this into the personal realm. If you find slim.a's post irritating, then just take it with a grain of salt, but try to be more even keeled, balanced in your criticism. Your response feels more like a personal attack. 
   
  Quote: 





high_q said:


> I am rather annoyed with your response.  Nothing in what you wrote have any lick of reasoning in it.  Its just bla bla bla $$ bla bla bla analogy(forced analogy, bad analogy is bad logic, using analogy to reason is very bad), this cost more, this cost little, don't compare the two. Thats what it comes down to.  And that stinks of very low reasoning skills.  And what you wrote about science is so stretch to overgeneralization, I can safely assume, you have very little experience with science.  You have no right to generalize science, you talk like you know enough science to talk so freely about it.  Unless you have a Phd in a science field, don't tread that territory, it makes you look very foolish.  Just because you have the hearsay knowledge of some equipment, doesn't make you an expert.  Its very foolish to think so.


----------



## slim.a

Quote: 





high_q said:


> No offense, but nothing in what you wrote have any lick of reasoning in it.  Its just bla bla bla $$ bla bla bla analogy(forced analogy, bad analogy is bad logic, using analogy to reason is very bad), this cost more, this cost little, don't compare the two. Thats what it comes down to.  And that stinks of very low reasoning skills.  And what you wrote about science is so stretch to overgeneralization, I can safely assume, you have very little experience with science.  You have no right to generalize science, you talk like you know enough science to talk so freely about it.  Just because you have the hearsay knowledge of some equipment, doesn't make you an expert.  Its very foolish to think so.


 

 As for me, I can safely assume that regardless of your background you clearly lack reasoning and deductive skills. I do have a solid background in science and math though I specialized in Finance and strategy consulting later on. I had worked a lot with engineers and while they can be good at their jobs, they can be to close minded at times and don't know how to think outside of the box.
   
  What people were suggesting, measuring the effect of different power cords with simple equipment was stupid. It is like if you are trying to compare the speed of a 747 with a jet fighter using a radar that was made for measuring the speed of cars. It is plain stupid and will only lead to false results.
  I use simple analogies because people are often too lazy to read articles that are long and complicated. If you had read Nordost paper or better, those published by Kunchur, you would understand what I am saying.
  A few weeks ago, I acquired an AES paper on the subject of jitter made by Benjamin and Gannonn. Their methodology was good, their math was good but they made a few mistakes. They used cheap Sony headphones and unknown quality headphone amp and DAC to conduct their test about jitter. Now there are people that go all over the place and say you cannot hear jitter under 10ns like it was the absolute truth. Their test system was not representative of most audiophile test systems. I am the first to say that if you are going to use something like the little dot mkIII there is no point in upgrading the DAC, power cords... Everything is relative. If you don't understand that even scientists can make mistakes, I pitty you.
   
  What I use is critical thinking and logic. My personal approach is the following: "_If it measures good and sounds bad, it is bad. If it measures bad and sounds good, you've measured the wrong thing._"
  Instead of spending my time trying to explain why things don't or shouldn't work, I prefer spending my time trying things that work first and then try to find an explanation. 
   
  Another "bad analogy" as you say. A lot of people complained about the poor sound quality of the CDs, especially in the highs, in comparison with LPs. Everyone with your reasoning would have discarded their remarks and say that CD was perfect sound for ever. Later CD makers discovered that jitter played a big role and started addressing that issue. Later on, when we moved from R2R dacs to the cheaper to make sigma delta chips, people started complaining about the poor sound quality of those chips dispite the fact they had better THD and SNR figures than the older 16bits R2R chips. Later on, we learned that sigma delta chips had a lot more out of band noise than R2R chips and were pretty poor at handling high frequencies in the time domain. If you have a doubt look at some sinewave pictures here : http://www.mother-of-tone.com/conversion.htm.
  Of course, this is not the first time it happened in audio. When negative feedback appeared, some audio designers thought for a moment that it was the magic bullet that would cure any circuit from THD. They started coming up with amplifiers with vanishingly low levels of THD but that sounded horrible and wrong to all the audiophiles that listened to them. After much complaint, they discovered that the measurements they were doing (1khz constant signal for example) were not representative of real world usage. When using a live signal and high levels of negative feedback, if the system is not fast enought, the error that the system is trying to correct at the input is already gone. This causes time intermodulation distortion. So what seemed "sane" for engineers at some point was in fact generating a distortion worse than the one it was supposed to cure.
   
  So forgive my supposedely bad reasoning skills and my obvious lack of understanding of science, but I don't put too much faith on what some self proclaimed scientists and engineers, like you, think the truth is. There are countless examples in old or recent history where people in different fields (audio but also medicine, physics, mathematics...) had to revise or correct their model of thinking. I don't pretend to know everything but in case of doubt, I prefer to trust my ears as it increases my personal pleasure, which is what this hobby is about.


----------



## slim.a

Quote: 





rdr. seraphim said:


> *High_Q*
> 
> Please back off. Read some of Slim.a's other posts and I believe you'll find his approach reasoned and rational, as well as appreciated. No need to take this into the personal realm. If you find slim.a's post irritating, then just take it with a grain of salt, but try to be more even keeled, balanced in your criticism. Your response feels more like a personal attack.


 
   
  I just saw that High_Q corrected his answer to make it more of personal attack. Personally, I don't care, if he can't find arguments to attack my reasoning, I guess it is easier to try and discredit me.
   
  What I tried to say so far in this is the following: if we are to do a measurement test, we should do the right one with the right tools, even if it seems overkill.


----------



## SP Wild

Hi Slim A.  Off topic, but how far will the Hi-face go as a transport, would it reduce jitter at the level of a professional CD transport mechanism?  I have been holding off from the HiFace, because I am certain that a new unit with a High quality low ripple PSU, better clocks with improvements in Async USB drivers is just around the corner.
   
  Yeah, and the European financial crisis cost me $15,000.


----------



## slim.a

Quote: 





sp wild said:


> Hi Slim A.  Off topic, but how far will the Hi-face go as a transport, would it reduce jitter at the level of a professional CD transport mechanism?  I have been holding off from the HiFace, because I am certain that a new unit with a High quality low ripple PSU, better clocks with improvements in Async USB drivers is just around the corner.
> 
> Yeah, and the European financial crisis cost me $15,000.


 

 The stock Hiface is better than entry level CD Transports but it probably cannot match high end transports (for many reasons: PS supply to the clock, output stage...). As for me, I am currently using a modified battery powered Hiface which increases its performance by a significant margin... So there is room for improvement over the stock Hiface.
  If you don't intend to mod the Hiface, i would suggest looking for a unit such as this: http://www.halidedesign.com/bridge/
  Since this is out of topic, you can send me a PM if you would like so that we do not derail this thread.


----------



## Rdr. Seraphim

X^n! (and from personal experience, dang it!)
   
  I haven't found a good measuring system that explains why good aftermarket AC power cords make the difference that they do. (Or good cabling in general!) The difference has always been tangible to me--sadly for my wallet, happily for my ears. We just haven't figured out a way to measure what it is that makes the difference.  
   
  Similarly, I haven't seen any measurements to prove or disprove what folks like Bybee and their Bybee Quantum Purifiers actually do. It seems like anyone who has applied Bybee's purifiers to their music systems put their money on the line to keep 'em. Again, no one to the best of my knowledge has measured the difference these make in their systems. The military has put the technology to good use and presumably it's effective, and measurable. Apparently, multi-meters, o'scopes, and AP analyzers that us common folk have at our disposal may not have the resolution (or measuring capabilities) to be able to effectively measure what's happening, not to mention the ability to accurately correlate the results with the apparent improvement in sound quality.  
   
  What does seem to correlate are the effects on SQ including, improved resolution, better bass, expanded soundstage, increased instrumental delineation and three dimensional image outlines. These seem to be some of the most common descriptors of a good quality AC power cord. I'm just sorry that not everyone hears the difference because the improvements really make my toes tap, and my head bob a little better, and I get goose bumps more frequently. I'm happier listening to music with 'em in my system than without. I enjoy the music more with 'em.   
    
   
  Quote: 





slim.a said:


> "_If it measures good and sounds bad, it is bad. If it measures bad and sounds good, you've measured the wrong thing._"


----------



## JamesL

Quote: 





> If you won't to test the effect of a change in power cable, it is stupid to try and find a difference in a simple sine wave. What we listen to is not simple sine waves but a complex musical signal.
> 
> 
> So far, there is no easy way to measure a musical signal properly. If you look at simple measurements like RMAA, a poor sounding soundcard such as the emu 0404 usb might measure better in the frequency domain than the $27,000 Naim CD555 Cd player. The reason is pretty simple it doesn't cost more than $100 to make a DAC with a good frequency domain performance but it take a lot more to make one with a good time domain frequency. In fact, Kunchur wouldn't have needed to use higher sample rate to generate a proper signal from a CD player. A CD player such as the Naim CD that use R2R dac chips with good digital filters can in fact generate decent sine waves at high frequencies (contrary to sigma delta DACs - see here for example).
> ...


 
   
  You made some interesting points... 
  So there is no proper way to measure the performance of a power cable, right?  So do the manufacturers know what they're doing, or are they just putting fancy parts with fancy advertising and a fancy price tag?
  How do we know a $2 monoprice power cable isn't -better- than a more expensive cable?
  How do you know that shielding is better than no shielding, silver better than copper, copper better than brass, rhodium better than nickel, coconuts and tourmaline better than nothing? 
   
  Yes, people believed that the earth was flat, because that was what they perceived and made the most sense.
  Scientists; physicists, astronomers.... aristotle, galileo, copernicus, and dozens other were the one who brought theories and proofs to the table.  Audiophiles aren't bringing any sort of proof as of yet.  - "this is what I hear(perceive) so it must be true, despite what anyone else says"
  Scientists are still trying to explain why we perceive something different than the reality, but are met with deaf ears.  
   
  You also brought up that nordost study.  The opinion that the study seems to be heavily flawed w/o much credibility is besides the point.  You said we should keep an open mind, but how can you put faith in that single study when you turn a blind eye to hundreds of other ones that have been trying to prove the opposite? 
   
  I appreciate what you're trying to do here, I really do..  but you seem to be trying to prove something by completely ignoring other relevant facts.


----------



## BIG POPPA

To me proof that power cables work on my rig is the smile I have listening to music. Anymore than that is a headache.


----------



## haloxt

JamesL, how many attempts in the past have been done to measure differences primarily in the time domain? And can you tell us what's so flawed about what nordost and acuity are doing?


----------



## cifani090

Because who does'nt want a cool looking cable, you know!!!


----------



## slim.a

Quote: 





jamesl said:


> You made some interesting points...
> So there is no proper way to measure the performance of a power cable, right?  So do the manufacturers know what they're doing, or are they just putting fancy parts with fancy advertising and a fancy price tag?
> How do we know a $2 monoprice power cable isn't -better- than a more expensive cable?
> How do you know that shielding is better than no shielding, silver better than copper, copper better than brass, rhodium better than nickel, coconuts and tourmaline better than nothing?
> ...


 

 You have also made some good points: it is very difficult to say which is better: shielded vs. unshielded, copper vs. silver... My guess is that they all work but in different ways.

 You are also right that there is a lot of overpriced stuff. A $1000 is not necessarily better than a $20 one, especially if the mannufacturer of the $1000 doesn't tell much about what is being used in the power cord because it is supposedly a "secret".

 Measuring something the wrong way for a thousand times doesn't make it necesseraly the right measurement. All that is necessary is one good measurement to steer things the right way and this what Nordost and Acuity are trying to do.
   
  Science is evolving. Ignoring a new promising research is ignoring relevant facts.
  
  Quote: 





haloxt said:


> JamesL, how many attempts in the past have been done to measure differences primarily in the time domain? And can you tell us what's so flawed about what nordost and acuity are doing?


 

 I totally agree, this is the first attempt to do such a thing. I am really surprised that people are discarding such a thing just because they don't like the results.
   
  In fact, if people read carefully Nordost and Acuity research, they will find that they are also trying to quantify the real difference between a cheap CD player and a top DAC such as DCS. I think that they are doing a huge service to the audiophile community as we are heading up to a new way to measure differences that are hardly perceptible in the frequency domain with simplistic tools such as RMAA.
   
  This reminds about something I have noticed. When using my laptop as a transport, I have always felt there was a difference between battery power and using the SMPS power supply. I did RMAA measurements (in the frequency domain) and I found zero difference.
 If I had an AP measurement device, I would have probably been able to measure a difference in jitter (time domain). Here (http://www.stereophile.com/digitalprocessors/cambridge_audio_azur_dacmagic_da_converter/index3.html), you can see that the jitter measurements of the DACMagic change from around 150ps to 2000ps depending on how the same laptop is use (battery or plugged to the wall wart).
   
  All the blabla I just said can be summed up to the following: "_If it measures good and sounds bad, it is bad. If it measures bad and sounds good, you've measured the wrong thing._"


----------



## slim.a

Quote: 





rdr. seraphim said:


> X^n! (and from personal experience, dang it!)
> 
> I haven't found a good measuring system that explains why good aftermarket AC power cords make the difference that they do. (Or good cabling in general!) The difference has always been tangible to me--sadly for my wallet, happily for my ears. We just haven't figured out a way to measure what it is that makes the difference.
> 
> ...


 

  
  Quote: 





big poppa said:


> *To me proof that power cables work on my rig is the smile I have listening to music.* Anymore than that is a headache.


 

 I totally agree, whatever the reason might be, I keep using good cables and power cords simply because it helps me enjoy the music much more.


----------



## MoldBuster

What is amusing is that some of those who post things about power cords and interconnects being crazy purchases also are headphone setup owners. Ask most AVERAGE people if they would ever consider buying an expensive set of headphones with a dedicated headphone amp and DAC and they'll look at that same person like THEY were crazy. The level of insanity is always relative. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  For the record, I also thought power cables were looney. Then I tried a Wireworld Electra Reference on my preamp and...um...hmmm...DARN IT! Would I ever dream of spending some of the silly money I've seen on some of the cables out there? Heck no! Do I now think power cords can make an audible change with some gear? Yeah. Is it a BETTER audible change? Jury is out.


----------



## BIG POPPA

Sometimes we are lucky enough to have gear that power cables make a difference.


----------



## JamesL

Quote: 





big poppa said:


> To me proof that power cables work on my rig is the smile I have listening to music. Anymore than that is a headache.


 
  That's fine if that works for you... 
 I can say that my bacon and eggs makes me happy when shaped into a smiley face, but I'm not going to try convince other people that it makes it taste better unless I want to put the effort(and I don't) into supporting that fact.
  
  Quote: 





haloxt said:


> JamesL, how many attempts in the past have been done to measure differences primarily in the time domain? And can you tell us what's so flawed about what nordost and acuity are doing?


 
   
  Since when do I need to experiment and gather data to support everything I don't approve of?  I can say a dish tastes bad without having made it before and I can say a movie was bad without having made one before.. 
   
  The report is more ambiguous and missing more information than some of the weekly lab reports I did for my freshman physics classes.
  If the experiment was done properly, the report certainly doesn't reflect that.  
   
  What is the point of criticizing one sentence that starts and ends with "the opinion that... is besides the point", without recognizing any other part of my post?  If you're arguing for the sake of arguing, I don't want to waste any more of your time..


----------



## slim.a

Quote: 





moldbuster said:


> What is amusing is that some of those who post things about power cords and interconnects being crazy purchases also are headphone setup owners. Ask most AVERAGE people if they would ever consider buying an expensive set of headphones with a dedicated headphone amp and DAC and they'll look at that same person like THEY were crazy. The level of insanity is always relative.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Well said MoldBuster, the level of insanity is relative 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Some of my friends think it is insane to spend more than €100 on headphones, let alone €1000+ on headphone amps (they don't even understand why you would need such a set-up for headphones). But so far, all my non-audiophile friends changed their minds once they listened to my headphone system. While most of them are not going to pursue such a route (they have other hobbies), they understand however that a well set-up headphone system is radically different from what from most headphone and speaker systems. One thing they keep repeating is that it sounds like the real thing or even better than the real thing (as you don't always listen to live music in ideal conditions).
   
  To me the power cords, along with other tweaks, helped me get closer to what I expect from reproduced music at home.


----------



## haloxt

_"Since when do I need to experiment and gather data to support everything I don't approve of?  I can say a dish tastes bad without having made it before and I can say a movie was bad without having made one before.. "_
   
  Did I say you have to? I am just asking how often have tests been done the way being done in the case we're discussing. You say tests have been done in the past, I just asked how many were done testing the time domain. You can say a number, or a percentage, you don't have to experiment or gather data.
   
_"The report is more ambiguous and missing more information than some of the weekly lab reports I did for my freshman physics classes._
_If the experiment was done properly, the report certainly doesn't reflect that. "_
   
  Two words: preliminary report.
   
_"What is the point of criticizing one sentence that starts and ends with "the opinion that... is besides the point", without recognizing any other part of my post?  If you're arguing for the sake of arguing, I don't want to waste any more of your time.. "_
   
  I did raise a question about your claim that we're putting "blind faith in that single study", in the form of asking just how relevant those "hundreds of other ones that have been trying to prove the opposite" are to the nordost experiments. To prove the opposite of what nordost is doing, you have to test the same thing and get the opposite conclusion. You must test the time domain. Can you tell me what percentage of those hundreds of tests have tested the thing nordost is testing? If it is not testing the same thing, it is not trying to prove the opposite. I hope you understand, I don't in any way want you to do any experiments to prove anything.


----------



## BIG POPPA

JamesL I see your point, but you make a simple component like a power cable more cumbersome than it really is. If you are trying to save money and only purchase on proven facts and not what sounds good to you it will not be a fun hobby. Power cables are easy to deal with. I would first define the strengths and weakness's of your gear and find a character in a power cable to compliment your rig. For example: My tube amp can get a little too warm and fuzzy for my taste. I made a power cable with SPC and Rhodium connectors to deal with that. I learned the characteristics of the different metals used to make power cables and made one to suit my needs.


----------



## Head Injury

Quote: 





big poppa said:


> If you are trying to save money and only purchase on proven facts and not what sounds good to you it will not be a fun hobby.


 

 Really? Because I'm having an absolute ball, and I've no interest in power cables. If you can't enjoy music without a fancy power cable, maybe you're focused too much on the gear.
   
  If you enjoy building them that's different. But not everyone wants to build their own fancy cables for their own enjoyment, or for what are marginal (or non-existent) sonic benefits.


----------



## Prog Rock Man

Pre ebay audiophiles had to buy from the named brands who found that they could charge silly prices for their cables. Now with ebay not is it easier to buy the parts to make your own, it is also easier to buy cables made with the audiophile in mind, but not at silly prices.


----------



## BIG POPPA

Yes I build my own cables. I do borrow a cable now and then from a retailer to make sure I'm on the right track. The higher end your gear gets, the more a good power cable will benefit your gear. There are a few companies that prefer a certain type of power cables. Ask Gary Koh of Genesis Advanced Technologies? He makes speakers that cost over 200K. I auditioned a demonstration of one of his DIYed TT power cables. It was at a Pacific Northwest Audio Society meeting I was invited to.


----------



## Head Injury

Quote: 





big poppa said:


> He makes speakers that cost over 200K.


 

 Good for him. I could too, though I don't even know how to start. The price would justify my amateurism, I expect.
   
  Heck, I'll charge 300K. _Now _who builds high-end speakers, huh? You better get a new power cable for these, because anything under 10k is going to sound like mud.


----------



## BIG POPPA

Point being, after a certain point with your gear, a good power cable becomes a necessary piece of equipment.


----------



## haloxt

I am interested in getting http://www.amazon.com/Live-Wire-Prong-Power-Adapter/dp/B001G7FFVU/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=musical-instruments&qid=1276974670&sr=8-4
   

   
  But my ears aren't that sensitive to power cables, or my power cables just aren't that much better than my various stock 14 awg power cables. I asked an aftermarket cable manufacturer if they could make a 2" cable for me with high quality copper connectors, but they said no, because it would break from flexing. I theorize that maybe it is because they know no cable cables sounds better and don't want me to find out. Could someone tell me if this sounds better than high quality power cables?


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





prog rock man said:


> Pre ebay audiophiles had to buy from the named brands who found that they could charge silly prices for their cables. Now with ebay not is it easier to buy the parts to make your own, it is also easier to buy cables made with the audiophile in mind, but not at silly prices.


 

 After reading Big Poppas success with Furutech - I tried DIY Furutech and the results were me taking expensive cables back for a refund.


----------



## Prog Rock Man

Quote: 





sp wild said:


> After reading Big Poppas success with Furutech - I tried DIY Furutech and the results were me taking expensive cables back for a refund.


 
   
  Same here but with ICs. I bought some Rean phonos and Van Damme cable and made my own. If you count the cost of the soldering kit I bought to make them and some cheap phonos and cable to learn to solder on, the three ICs I have made (I have given two away) cost about £25 each. Ebay sellers are selling the same ICs as I made for about £18.


----------



## Head Injury

Quote: 





big poppa said:


> Point being, after a certain point with your gear, a good power cable becomes a necessary piece of equipment.


 

 Point being, what certain point is that and what besides the $$$ determines that point?
   
  Also point being, if only very resolving gear can resolve the differences power cables make, how are they worth the premium charged, or the time to make? Again, you enjoy making them, but not everyone will, and not everyone can afford the alternative.
   
  Besides, I wouldn't call your gear especially resolving if your signature is correct.


----------



## El_Doug

I would call you very UNlucky, if your gear responds so wildly to various power cables - I would imagine this is the result of both very poor power supplies, and poor circuit layouts which are so sensitive to noise
   
  thankfully my gear is good enough that I have never heard a difference with the power cables I have demoed 
  
  Quote: 





big poppa said:


> Sometimes we are lucky enough to have gear that power cables make a difference.


----------



## AudioCats

Quote: 





haloxt said:


> ..
> 
> But my ears aren't that sensitive to power cables, or my power cables just aren't that much better than my various stock 14 awg power cables. I asked an aftermarket cable manufacturer if they could make a 2" cable for me with high quality copper connectors, but they said no, because it would break from flexing. I theorize that maybe it is because they know no cable cables sounds better and don't want me to find out. Could someone tell me if this sounds better than high quality power cables?


 
  If power cords don't make any difference for you, lucky you (seriously), you have clean power in your room.  
   
  A boutique power cord works as a fancy filter, to reduce the high frequency noise (from cell phones signals, computer power supplys, other little switching power supplies in your room, motors) before it reaches your amp. The noise frequencies themselves might be beyond our hearing range, but the beat frequency can be audiable. A large isolation transformer works better than a boutique power cord for filtering, but the isolation transformer will be super heavy, not a tweak for everybody.
   
  A 2" power cord will do no good, there isn't enough lenght for it to work as a filter.


----------



## haloxt

I think I hear a difference, but I wouldn't trust myself to give a good subjective critique of power cables. There's certain things in my audio chain I think may a difference, but I have a hard time telling. Maybe if I had ten foot ones, but... too lazy to experiment .


----------



## BIG POPPA

Quote: 





head injury said:


> Point being, what certain point is that and what besides the $$$ determines that point?
> 
> Also point being, if only very resolving gear can resolve the differences power cables make, how are they worth the premium charged, or the time to make? Again, you enjoy making them, but not everyone will, and not everyone can afford the alternative.
> 
> Besides, I wouldn't call your gear especially resolving if your signature is correct.


 
  My signature is correct but not complete. Not enough room. Yes this hobby takes money like any other hobby. Nature of the beast. Yes some have bigger budgets. It would not be very interesting if everybody spent the same on their rigs.


----------



## Dookky

Thanks for all the comments everyone, this is turning out to be a rather fun discussion (for me at least!). Slim, thanks for you're comments especially. I never thought that quantum processes might have an effect on human aural perception, which is to say that it i find it very intriguing and something I'll begin thought experiments on for the rest of my life! Unfortunately I have very little classical training in quantum physics so there's nothing I can comment on your postings directly.
   
  Once I am able to buy a nice oscilloscope and A/D i still want to try the experiment that I outlined a few pages ago. Although I do agree that doing the experiment right is paramount! And, as some of my professor's have told me "proving something right is relatively easy, but proving something wrong is much harder."
   
  Anyways, just wanted to say thanks for all the comments, and hopefully I'll have something good to share soon.


----------



## JamesL

"Did I say you have to? I am just asking how often have tests been done the way being done in the case we're discussing. You say tests have been done in the past, I just asked how many were done testing the time domain. You can say a number, or a percentage, you don't have to experiment or gather data.

-cut-

I did raise a question about your claim that we're putting "blind faith in that single study", in the form of asking just how relevant those "hundreds of other ones that have been trying to prove the opposite" are to the nordost experiments. To prove the opposite of what nordost is doing, you have to test the same thing and get the opposite conclusion. You must test the time domain. Can you tell me what percentage of those hundreds of tests have tested the thing nordost is testing? If it is not testing the same thing, it is not trying to prove the opposite. I hope you understand, I don't in any way want you to do any experiments to prove anything."

   

   

  My apologies.  I misread your sentence and thought you were asking me how much times '_I'_ have personally done these experiments.. 

   

  I think you misinterpreted my point as well though.. The hundreds of other contradictory reports don't serve to disprove the Nordost study.  The hundreds of studies support the fact that people can't hear a difference between two cables or between two reasonably-made power sources.  Studies showing that people CAN hear differences between two identical equipment when they think the equipment has been changed.  These hundreds of tests don't disprove the nordost test, but the nordost test doesn't disprove those other hundreds of tests either.  

  How can you say we should keep an open mind when you're only looking at one side of the argument?  

   

  And you make it sound like measuring something in the "time domain" is something new and revolutionary...

  excuse me if I'm wrong but what they're doing seems like extremely basic/common stuff.. simple null test... subtraction and addition.. done all the time.  I actually did come across a test very similar to the Nordost one, using recording/studio equipment.. but in that case, the test was used to prove that there was no difference.

   

"Two words: preliminary report."

   

  Do they plan on releasing an actual report, or just feed us enough information to stir something up?

  The preliminary report by itself doesn't inspire too much confidence, but they might sway my mind if they can actually put together a accurate, complete, and well-written report.

   

JamesL I see your point, but you make a simple component like a power cable more cumbersome than it really is. If you are trying to save money and only purchase on proven facts and not what sounds good to you it will not be a fun hobby. Power cables are easy to deal with. I would first define the strengths and weakness's of your gear and find a character in a power cable to compliment your rig. For example: My tube amp can get a little too warm and fuzzy for my taste. I made a power cable with SPC and Rhodium connectors to deal with that. I learned the characteristics of the different metals used to make power cables and made one to suit my needs.

   

  hey big poppa.. No, it doesn't seem like you see the point.  

  I'm not "-saving money by only purchasing on proven facts and not what sounds good to me-"

  I simply don't bother fiddling around and doing ridiculous stuff with my power cord.  

  When you eat a meal, do you enjoy it better by switching out and auditioning the silverware? Sure, I guess you can argue that some silverware and metallurgy imparts a different flavor on your food, but most of the appeal of choosing nice flatware/dinnerware is in the presentation.  

  Ask anyone else ... which one of us is making .. and let me quote you, "a simple component like a power cable more cumbersome than it really is"  I certainly don't think its me.

    
_"The report is more ambiguous and missing more information than some of the weekly lab reports I did for my freshman physics classes._
_If the experiment was done properly, the report certainly doesn't reflect that. "_
   
  Two words: preliminary report.
   
_"What is the point of criticizing one sentence that starts and ends with "the opinion that... is besides the point", without recognizing any other part of my post?  If you're arguing for the sake of arguing, I don't want to waste any more of your time.. "_
   
  I did raise a question about your claim that we're putting "blind faith in that single study", in the form of asking just how relevant those "hundreds of other ones that have been trying to prove the opposite" are to the nordost experiments. To prove the opposite of what nordost is doing, you have to test the same thing and get the opposite conclusion. You must test the time domain. Can you tell me what percentage of those hundreds of tests have tested the thing nordost is testing? If it is not testing the same thing, it is not trying to prove the opposite. I hope you understand, I don't in any way want you to do any experiments to prove anything.

   I did raise a question about your claim that we're putting "blind faith in that single study", in the form of asking just how relevant those "hundreds of other ones that have been trying to prove the opposite" are to the nordost experiments. To prove the opposite of what nordost is doing, you have to test the same thing and get the opposite conclusion. You must test the time domain. Can you tell me what percentage of those hundreds of tests have tested the thing nordost is testing? If it is not testing the same thing, it is not trying to prove the opposite. I hope you understand, I don't in any way want you to do any experiments to prove anything.


----------



## maverickronin

Quote: 





audiocats said:


> If power cords don't make any difference for you, lucky you (seriously), you have clean power in your room.
> 
> A boutique power cord works as a fancy filter, to reduce the high frequency noise (from cell phones signals, computer power supplys, other little switching power supplies in your room, motors) before it reaches your amp. The noise frequencies themselves might be beyond our hearing range, but the beat frequency can be audiable. A large isolation transformer works better than a boutique power cord for filtering, but the isolation transformer will be super heavy, not a tweak for everybody.
> 
> A 2" power cord will do no good, there isn't enough lenght for it to work as a filter.


 

 A cable won't filter anything.  An actual power conditioner will do the job nicely however.  That's something that actually can make a difference.  You'd have to have some really terrible power, insanely resolving gear, or some mix of both for it to make a very large difference though.  They're much more useful for keeping your gear safe from spikes and surges than at making it sound better though.


----------



## haloxt

Quote: 





> How can you say we should keep an open mind when you're only looking at one side of the argument?


 
   
  Quote: 





> I actually did come across a test very similar to the Nordost one, using recording/studio equipment.. but in that case, the test was used to prove that there was no difference.


 
   
   
  I know pro-cablers face an uphill battle. I am not ignoring all the studies done in the past, I just know that if people feel like doing experiments, they should, and someone who knows how crazy audiophile claims get knows that nordost is using pretty creative new ways of testing audio equipment. It is true they may be ultimately just running over the same ground or fudging data, but from what I see they've found creative new ways to tackle problems, which tests that set forth "to prove that there was no difference" aren't likely to ever think of. And the equipment used are finer measuring tools of most prior tests, but it remains to be seen just how rigorous their test is. Let's say the nordost study claims to be a success in the future, of course I'd expect other people to eventually try to verify or disprove their claims. In fact if nordost/acuity aren't transparent about the experiment for others to do it themselves I'd simply ignore their results as there's obvious conflict of interest. The pessimist in me thinks Nordost is just going to cause pro-cablers and anti-cablers to become even more entrenched in their stubborn beliefs, which is the proper climate for selling multi-thousand dollar cables.


----------



## aimlink

Quote: 





haloxt said:


> I know pro-cablers face an uphill battle. I am not ignoring all the studies done in the past, I just know that if people feel like doing experiments, they should, and someone who knows how crazy audiophile claims get knows that nordost is using pretty creative new ways of testing audio equipment. It is true they may be ultimately just running over the same ground or fudging data, but from what I see they've found creative new ways to tackle problems, which tests that set forth "to prove that there was no difference" aren't likely to ever think of. And the equipment used are finer measuring tools of most prior tests, but it remains to be seen just how rigorous their test is. Let's say the nordost study claims to be a success in the future, of course I'd expect other people to eventually try to verify or disprove their claims. In fact if nordost/acuity aren't transparent about the experiment for others to do it themselves I'd simply ignore their results as there's obvious conflict of interest. The pessimist in me thinks Nordost is just going to cause pro-cablers and anti-cablers to become even more entrenched in their stubborn beliefs, which is the proper climate for selling multi-thousand dollar cables.


 

 For other gear, there isn't so much uproar about audible differences where none exist through DBT's, simply because there are measurable differences that many would consider potentially audible.  This isn't so with the cables.  Once measurable differences that could affect sound are discovered, the attitudes will likely change.


----------



## AudioCats

Quote: 





maverickronin said:


> *A cable won't filter anything.*  An actual power conditioner will do the job nicely however.  That's something that actually can make a difference.  You'd have to have some really terrible power, insanely resolving gear, or some mix of both for it to make a very large difference though.  They're much more useful for keeping your gear safe from spikes and surges than at making it sound better though.


 

  
  like I said, why argue, just ask your professor ( not the one that eats hot pocket all day)


----------



## High_Q

Quote: 





audiocats said:


> like I said, why argue, just ask your professor ( not the one that eats hot pocket all day)


 
  I don't need to ask any professor.  I have built filters, L-nets, amplifier circuits etc.  To my knowledge cable does not filter.  Cable does not have the frequency response to filter anything.   Shame on whoever that said cable filters, you really need to look up what a filter truely is or does.  Seriously, I'm just shocked at how some of the believers arrive at their conclusions...  If you do not have an explaination, how much is the conclusion worth??  
   
  @slim.a  
  I am appalled that you stated that engineers do not think outside the box.  Look around you, you think everything around you came from people that think inside the box?  Engineers solve problems.  period.


----------



## Prog Rock Man

Quote: 





aimlink said:


> For other gear, there isn't so much uproar about audible differences where none exist through DBT's, simply because there are measurable differences that many would consider potentially audible.  This isn't so with the cables.  Once measurable differences that could affect sound are discovered, the attitudes will likely change.


 

 I am not so sure about that aimlink. Jitter is held as the reason why digital cables can sound different, but there is still a lot of disagreement about the role, if any of jitter. We need a measurable difference than then correlates to 'better sound quality' and for that to be repeated again and again, particularly under blind testing, to stand any chance of a change in attitude.


----------



## aimlink

Quote: 





prog rock man said:


> I am not so sure about that aimlink. Jitter is held as the reason why digital cables can sound different, but there is still a lot of disagreement about the role, if any of jitter. We need a measurable difference than then correlates to 'better sound quality' and for that to be repeated again and again, particularly under blind testing, to stand any chance of a change in attitude.


 

 DBT's have certainly confirmed my personal experience since starting this head-fi journey, which is that the differences expressed aren't as huge as they're made out to be, between cans, amps, dacs and other gear.  I've always been bewildered at my personal subtle experiences being characterised as night and day by others.  This has to do with differences where there's no dispute over whether or not differences really exist and whether or not they're potentially audible in truth.  It's this experience that has made me not interested in tube amps when considering the drawbacks of owning a tubeamp where I live and also, my losing interest in the next latest and greatest can or other piece of gear that hits the scene with all the hype surrounding it.  At the same time, I have found that subtle differences can contribute a lot to the overall listening experiences over long sessions and especially if it's your genuine hobby to listen for subtle details.
   
  After trying a couple cable upgrades which deepened my already deepening skepticism about cables, you can imagine my shock when just on a whim, I switched from my ALO SXC Cryo cable for my K702's back to the stock cable.  The difference was more than I heard switching from different amps in the past. My skepticism about cables was immediately overturned.  Not only that.  As I switched back and forth a couple times, the clear difference grew to be a lot less obvious.  Since I much preferred the ALO cable, I stuck with it.  Afterall, it's about the sound with extended listening and not switching back and forth. 
   
  I'll always be fascinated by the curious findings of DBT's.  Curious indeed they are. However, there's enough that I've experienced to be quite frankly, skeptic about them and their power of saying that final word.  While I do believe the findings, I do feel there are other factors at work here that we don't fully understand.  One thing I'll not dispute and instead, fully support, is that the differences that we're hearing between any of the gear here, are no doubt being influenced by other subjective experience based on our seeing the gear and having particular expectations.  It's pretty clear that those who design and sell this stuff is aware of this and take advantage of it.
   
  However, the truth doesn't have to be either black or white and I'm personally not yet ready to hang my hat on the evidence of DBT's giving the FINAL answer.  If you have, then that's your prerogative.
   
  ... and BTW; I'm certainly not trying to change your attitude or anyone else's.  You are responsible for your own.  You lay out your own terms for a change and I see it. Happy listening with it.


----------



## Prog Rock Man

I wonder how many on this and other audio forums have changed their views? I have from cable believer to cable sceptic, from lapping up the prospect of spending thousands to upgrade to the ultimate sound, to finding I can get that for much, much less.


----------



## aimlink

Quote: 





prog rock man said:


> I wonder how many on this and other audio forums have changed their views? I have from cable believer to cable sceptic,* from lapping up the prospect of spending thousands to upgrade to the ultimate sound, to finding I can get that for much, much less. *


 
   
  How much less?  Just curious.  Ultimate, you say.


----------



## Prog Rock Man

Presently listening to AKG K44 headphones bought for £11, less. The ultimate sound, well that is for me to decide and I am sure that I am close to it now. There is one caveat, I have not heard any high end headphones, so that may still happen, particularly with AKG K1000s, or Stax, or something!


----------



## Lenni

Quote: 





> I'll always be fascinated by the curious findings of DBT's.  Curious indeed they are. However, there's enough that I've experienced to be quite frankly, skeptic about them and their power of saying that final word.  While I do believe the findings, I do feel there are other factors at work here that we don't fully understand.  One thing I'll not dispute and instead, fully support, is that the differences that we're hearing between any of the gear here, is no doubt being influenced by other subjective experience based on our seeing the gear and having particular expectations.  It's pretty clear that those who design and sell this stuff is aware of this and take advantage of it.


 
   
  Please also consider this: 
  It seems to me that a lot of people miss the broader picture. Audiophiles are not constantly doing abx tests, or swapping cables the way some people may think (at least not in my case). If I’d get a new pair of interconnects, for example, I don’t start listening to a song, then swap the cables, and listen the song again. I just put on the cables and listen to music normally, while I’m doing other things, not even critically. then during the listening I may come across some particular passages (vocals, notes, whatever..) that sound different, or new than I’m used to.  then I swap cables and listen to these passages critically and note the differences. I can listen for an hour and not swap cables at all, or swap cables every 5mins, and so on. I do this for the next few days, then my mind start to fade away of the last cables, and getting accustomed to the new ones, but  by then I’ll have a pretty good idea of the strength and weakness of the cables.
   
  This, of course, is a simply written short example. My point is that these abx/dbt tests that some people like to do by having people trying to guess differences in sound tested on systems they’re unfamiliar with are utterly useless; it would be very difficult, even for the most ear-trained audiophile to tell the differences for sure in those conditions. this is not where it has!  These dbt tests (like the $1M one) don’t mean anything, are only misleading, create more confusion, and just give way to nonsense theories, like the “placebo effect”, which I don’t deny the existence of,  but I don’t think it applies in this case to cable differences, at all.
   
   I’m not trying to win the argument, I’d just like to understand, and see the broader picture.  lol
   Please also consider this: 
  It seems to me that a lot of people miss the broader picture. audiophiles are not constantly doing abx tests, or swapping cables the way some people may think (at least not in my case). if I’d get a new pair of interconnects, for example, I don’t start listening to a song, then swap the cables, and listen the song again. I just put on the cables and listen to music normally, while even doing other things. then during the listening I may come across some particular passages (vocals, notes, whatever..) that sound different, or new than I’m used to.  then I swap cables and listen to these passages critically and note the differences. I can listen for an hour and not swap cables at all, or swap cables every 5mins, and so on. I do this for the next few days, then my mind start to fade away of the last cables, and getting accustomed to the new ones, but  by then I’ll have a pretty good idea of the strength and weakness of the cables.
   
  This, of course, is a rather simple written short example I made (bear with me - _me engrish no big_).
  The point is that these abx/dbt tests that some people like to do by having people trying to guess differences in sound tested on systems they’re unfamiliar with are utterly useless; it would be very difficult, even for the most ear-trained audiophile to tell the differences for sure in those conditions. *this is not where it has!*  These dbt tests (like the $1M one offered) don’t mean anything, are only misleading, create more confusion, and just give way to nonsense theories, like the “placebo effect”, which I don’t deny the existence of,  but I don’t think it applies in this case to cable differences, at all.
   
  I hope you understand...


----------



## Head Injury

Quote: 





lenni said:


> Please also consider this:
> It seems to me that a lot of people miss the broader picture. audiophiles are not constantly doing abx tests, or swapping cables the way some people may think (at least not in my case). if I’d get a new pair of interconnects, for example, I don’t start listening to a song, then swap the cables, and listen the song again. I just put on the cables and listen to music normally, while even doing other things. then during the listening I may come across some particular passages (vocals, notes, whatever..) that sound different, or new than I’m used to.  then I swap cables and listen to these passages critically and note the differences. I can listen for an hour and not swap cables at all, or swap cables every 5mins, and so on. I do this for the next few days, then my mind start to fade away of the last cables, and getting accustomed to the new ones, but  by then I’ll have a pretty good idea of the strength and weakness of the cables.
> 
> This, of course, is a rather simple written short example I made (bear with me - _me engrish no big_).
> ...


 

 So how do you explain the utter failure of tests where different cables (usually three) are covered so as to be blind, sent _to the tester's home_ where the tester may then listen for an extended period on his own gear and with his own songs just as would happen with a purchased cable? The scores for individual testers are not often better than guessing, often completely off, and what differences they describe or preferences they have are usually contradictory. I think there's one or more in Prog's audiophile myths thread.
   
  I can listen to the same song in two different hours and hear completely different things. No cable switching needed. Audio memory is terrible, so if it's not blind then it means nothing to anyone but yourself.


----------



## haloxt

Use 30 ft cables instead of 3 ft cables for objective tests.


----------



## BIG POPPA

Quote: 





haloxt said:


> Use 30 ft cables instead of 3 ft cables for objective tests.


 

 Wouldn't 2 meter cables suffice? That would be a real world application length?


----------



## haloxt

Sometimes when people want to prove something is real, they do what they can to increase the likelihood of it occurring. In this case, since there happens to be so much difficulty testing power cables in past blind tests, it may not be a bad idea to try to see if longer cables will enable differences between power cables to finally be heard in an objective test. This brings new problems of course, such as the fact that 50 foot power cables will have their physical properties different from typically used power cables, and anti-cablers can argue that such cables are much different from typical stock 6 foot power cables vs 3-6 foot aftermarket power cables. Likewise, you could definitely measure something wrong with 30 awg or smaller, 100 foot headphone cable, but the only time people would use 100 foot cables is in the studio. And in the studio, they usually use proper gauge stuff .


----------



## BIG POPPA

On my rig I can tell the differences with cables. I have reference music that can be dissected in passages and look for differences a few seconds at a time. Or by the temperature of the whole album. Some albums will sound better with certain power cables. I listen to a lot of music. I purchase a lot of music. Lately it has been about 2 CD's a week. Today I picked up Shabazz Palace and LCD Soundsystem. Learning to listen to certain things is easy to observe differences, really it is.


----------



## haloxt

Big poppa, what you're doing is defined as subjective testing. Objective testing must try to minimize possibly flawed data. When you put a blindfold on someone, you are preventing the possibility of knowing what is being used by seeing it. Doing this means you cannot possibly make the mistake of thinking you hear a difference because you see a difference. It becomes that much more "objective". If you can see the gear you are listening to while trying to guess whether you hear a difference or not, it remains in the subjective realm. What anti-cablers are interested in is called "objective data", what you described above is called "subjective data". You keep bringing up subjective data, but they are not interested in it.


----------



## BIG POPPA

Some may not like my real world techniques? Some may not like to spend money to find out what works and what doesn't? Some don't get off the computer long enough to find out their questions on their own and rely on the net for all their answers. But at least I do some listening with an audience with the meets I have been organizing the last few years. I can say I do get off my a$$ to try things for myself and not rely too much on other people for my answers when it comes to cables.


----------



## haloxt

It's not about that, it's about subjective experimentation vs objective experimentation. You keep bringing up subjective experimentation when most anti-cablers want objective experimentation.
   
  You must admit that because you see a blue power cable being used, you know that a blue power cable is being used, and that you don't need to hear the blue cable to know that it is being used. Because of this, it is always possible to know a blue cable is being used by looking at the cable and seeing whether it is blue or not. It becomes more objective when you cannot see the blue cable, then it becomes impossible to know a blue cable is being used by sight, and you must rely on other senses to tell if it is the blue cable. This is important because the question is "can you hear if it is the blue cable?". We must try to prevent you from using your other senses to know that it is a blue cable, only use the sense of hearing to tell. That is called objective experimentation, and that is what anti-cablers keep demanding, while you keep offering subjective data that does not only test "can you hear if it is the blue cable?" but also "can you see it". If you can see it is the blue cable, you don't need to hear it is the blue cable to know it is the blue cable, thus it becomes less objective because we are unable to be sure if you know it is blue from sight or hearing. Hence the importance placed on objective testing, you may not think it is important to know for certain you hear the difference, but others do, and you keep arguing as if they have no right to want to be objective.


----------



## Head Injury

Quote: 





big poppa said:


> Some may not like my real world techniques? Some may not like to spend money to find out what works and what doesn't? Some don't get off the computer long enough to find out their questions on their own and rely on the net for all their answers. But at least I do some listening with an audience with the meets I have been organizing the last few years. I can say I do get off my a$$ to try things for myself and not rely too much on other people for my answers when it comes to cables.


 

 Some may want empirical facts? Some may not trust the subjective words of a random internet personality? Some may not trust their own incredibly flawed senses?
   
  Man, what are those people _thinking?_


----------



## BIG POPPA

Listen to cables with a few people and discuss what you hear. You will be amazed that sometimes all will agree and sometimes will be way off. I go to BBQ's just to listen to gear and discuss this stuff. Well I also go to demonstrations and audio society meetings to listen and discuss this stuff, sometimes with manufacturer's. Point being if you only want one way to listen to something you are limiting yourself other ways to discover and learn about power cables.


----------



## haloxt

Hehe yes, but you do see that what you are suggesting is "subjective" right? It is not "objective".


----------



## BIG POPPA

So what? I may be a little more practical? Making my hobby a science project? Nope. It doesn't have to be? Really it doesn't. Especially when it comes to something as simple as power cables. Some make power cables a lot more than they are? There is no mysteries to them. Just a little money to find out if they help your rig or not.


----------



## Head Injury

Quote: 





big poppa said:


> Some make power cables a lot more than they are?


 

 Like equalizers?


----------



## downsize

Curiosity question .... What price is too high to pay, if a person gains higher personal satisfaction by believing he hears improvements ?
   
  I only have two things to say :
   
  I am so very glad I am able to hear the minute differences that others say they can not hear. It makes my listening SO much more enjoyable !
   
  The hobby and lifestyle of enjoying ALL things audio, which leads to such a high level of fun and satisfaction for me, would be so very dull if I were a cynic.


----------



## haloxt

Big poppa, you have to understand, most anti-cablers are not here for sharing subjective experiences with power cables. They're here because they want to ask for objective proof, and you can't get objective proof of hearing a certain cable when all you have to do is look at it to know it is a certain cable. Whenever someone asks for objective proof, you start going on and on about subjective experimentation, which I don't have anything against, but it is NOT objective data, so stop telling people looking for objective data to do subjective tests.


----------



## BIG POPPA

In my experience anti-cablers don't want to spend the money upfront to find out for themselves. They would rather ask a million questions instead of experimenting and disclosing their findings that they are so interested in. Just my 2 cents. I am a doer, some anti-cablers just sit on the sidelines and just discount what ever somebody does.


----------



## Head Injury

Quote: 





big poppa said:


> In my experience anti-cablers don't want to spend the money upfront to find out for themselves. They would rather ask a million questions instead of experimenting and disclosing their findings that they are so interested in. Just my 2 cents. I am a doer, some anti-cablers just sit on the sidelines and just discount what ever somebody does.


 

 Why buy something you don't think is going to work?


----------



## BIG POPPA

Quote: 





head injury said:


> Why buy something you don't think is going to work?


 

 How will you absolutely know until you try it? Really?
  *I have crashed and burned so many times with cables learning what works and what doesn't. I have paid my dues. There is no short cut but maybe a little guidance?


----------



## Head Injury

Quote: 





big poppa said:


> How will you absolutely know until you try it? Really?


 

 That's a fantastic business strategy, thanks. I'll use that next time I sell something on eBay.


----------



## BIG POPPA

It is not business. Just a hobby.


----------



## Head Injury

It's a business for the people selling the cables. It's a product for the people buying them.
   
  You don't go out and buy a vacuum that may or may not clean better than a broom just because housekeeping is your hobby.


----------



## BIG POPPA

With this hobby you have to buy everything. What is the point? Yes you can go to a meet like the Centralia meet where we had a free table and get something cool. I got some cool Telefunken tubes. Anyway, this hobby is what you make it. Some make it harder than others on themselves. Which boat are you on?


----------



## maverickronin

Quote: 





big poppa said:


> In my experience anti-cablers don't want to spend the money upfront to find out for themselves. They would rather ask a million questions instead of experimenting and disclosing their findings that they are so interested in. Just my 2 cents. I am a doer, some anti-cablers just sit on the sidelines and just discount what ever somebody does.


 

 If you were a doer, you'd be organizing actual experiments to prove your hypothesis.  You are instead simply making assertions to justify the time and money you have spent buying and making wires.  There is no evidence to suggest that power cables make any difference.  The fact that you hear a difference under uncontrolled conditions merely indicates that it is time to conduct a properly controlled test to see if your are correct.
   
  I'm also a DIYer.  Not as much for audio as other things, since I'm new to this hobby, but I'm fairly handy.  A few weeks ago I made a mini to mini IC to connect my D2+ and my Bithead.  I used some nice Neutrik connectors and some silver plated copper teflon insulated wire.  I didn't hear a difference between my IC and the stock one.  Fortunately, that's not why I made it.  I wanted something that would be exactly the right length.  I figured it would be as good a chance as any to test a cable though.  Obviously it wasn't a proper test, since I'm only one person, but when the preliminary test supports the null hypothesis, you generally don't need to try a better test unless you're testing for tiny differences.
   
  My main point here is that we are not all 'armchair quarterbacks' as it were.  Some of us have tried these things and not found differences.  In the big picture though, it wouldn't matter even if we were.  Unless these power cables operate on a whole new law of physics, then anyone can work out if they do anything by proper use of logic, math, and maybe an engineering or physics text.  That's why we can knock it before we try it.


----------



## Head Injury

Quote: 





big poppa said:


> With this hobby you have to buy everything. What is the point? Yes you can go to a meet like the Centralia meet where we had a free table and get something cool. I got some cool Telefunken tubes. Anyway, this hobby is what you make it. Some make it harder than others on themselves. Which boat are you on?


 

 I'm riding on the easy boat. No differences in cables = less money spent and fewer worries. Now I get to focus on headphones!
   
  Way to change the subject, by the way.


----------



## BIG POPPA

Hey maverickronin, good to have a DIYer chime in. Head Injury if power cables aren't your focus....Great.... Have fun with the headphones.


----------



## tommarra

This is funny...power cables make zero difference (provided they are sufficient AWG). Most audio works on DC power anyhow..and the overall impedance of the capacitive and resistive networks of the power supply of audio systems is far greater than that of the power cords. 
   
  There is NO difference whatsoever by the power cord. Now if there was a voltage regulator or a device that produces a perfect sine wave from the normal utility grade power to remove all the harmonics etc that could have a difference but that is a power conditioner and not a power cable.
   
  All those selling super expensive cables are just big bluffs! I have tried both the stock cable as well as some expensive $500 Zu Audio cables and there is Zero, Zilch Nada difference in the audio quality. (I should have know being an electrical engineer  )
   
   
  Edit: Corrected the typo : Zu Audio instead of Zo audio as I had previously mistyped.


----------



## BIG POPPA

Never heard of Zo Audio cables? Do you have a website?


----------



## maverickronin

Quote: 





big poppa said:


> Hey maverickronin, good to have a DIYer chime in. Head Injury if power cables aren't your focus....Great.... Have fun with the headphones.


 

 If you build all your ICs and cables out of top quality components because you like nice things, and the end result is exactly what you want, then I respect that.  It's pretty close to what I usually do.  If you really like the look of some fancy and expensive cable, or just like to own nice things, then I'm ok with that.  It's not my philosophy.  I'm more of function over form kinda guy, but people are different, and I'm not going to dislike them for it.
   
  What I hate however are the people selling insanely overprices cables and claiming huge improvements in SQ.  I think it borders very closely on fraud.  That will be true even they do turn out to work, because even if it does, it hasn't been proven _yet_.  That is generally why I'm vocal about this kind of thing.  For every person who says they hear a difference in a cable, I'd bet there are a lot more who are disappointed, but are too embarrassed to complain.  The flame warriors on one side will call them stupid for believing in a scam, while those on the other will call them cloth-eared gits unable to appreciate true quality.
   
  I'm not going to deny that some people get considerable enjoyment out their cables.  What I am saying, is that almost all of them would get more enjoyment from putting that money into better 'phones and amps.  Even if cables do help, I think the fact that there not yet a consensus, shows that any effect they do have is so small as to not be worth worrying about until you have absolutely maxed out the rest of your system.  Probably so maxed out that the cheapest upgrade available is a $6000 power cable.
   
  Sometimes I come across as a little harsh in this kind of thing, but I would rather save some anonymous lurker a few bucks, and alienate a few others on the other side of the debate, than the other way around.  The basic argument is that unless you've got money to burn and really love to tinker and fiddle, then you shouldn't invest in unproven technology.  That goes for everything, not just fancy cables.


----------



## downsize

Quote: 





big poppa said:


> So what? I may be a little more practical? Making my hobby a science project? Nope. It doesn't have to be? Really it doesn't. Especially when it comes to something as simple as power cables. Some make power cables a lot more than they are? There is no mysteries to them. Just a little money to find out if they help your rig or not.


 

 Gil .... I you must know by now ... Believers and non-believers will NEVER be convinced otherwise. Just count yourself among the fortunate ones who can hear the differences.
   
  As an interesting side note related to this topic, I have met a new local Headfi friend who is an absolute GENIOUS of an electrical engineer. I mean he is really brilliant !  He threw together the amplifier in the photos here in about 4 hours one afternoon. It measures within .05 db of flat from 10hz to 50k.
   
  He brought this amp over to my place a couple of weeks ago to compare it to my Blue Circle SBH amp. Both of these are plenty  powerful amps, with quality separate power supplies. He for the life of him could not figure out why my SBH sounds so much more transparent, and has a slightly higher level of musicality. BOTH AMPS WILL MEASURE THE SAME .... so they should sound the same .... .Yeah right.


----------



## Head Injury

Quote: 





downsize said:


> He brought this amp over to my place a couple of weeks ago to compare it to my Blue Circle SBH amp. Both of these are plenty  powerful amps, with quality separate power supplies. *He for the life of him could not figure out why my SBH sounds so much more transparent, and has a slightly higher level of musicality. BOTH AMPS WILL MEASURE THE SAME .... so they should sound the same .... .Yeah right.*


 

 Has he heard of placebo?


----------



## tommarra

@BIG POPPA: http://www.zuaudio.com/cables.html here is the website you wanna click Power and then select MK2 (thats the power cable I owned and sold)


----------



## maverickronin

Quote: 





downsize said:


> He for the life of him could not figure out why my SBH sounds so much more transparent, and has a slightly higher level of musicality. BOTH AMPS WILL MEASURE THE SAME .... so they should sound the same .... .Yeah right.


 

 Well obviously your brain is measuring something different if you can tell them apart so easily.  They only measure the same on that one test.  I don't think anyone claims that one FR test tells you everything you need to know about how an amp sounds.  Neither do other simple tests like THD and noise tell you everything.  Everything you need to know about an amp _can _be measured, but the problem is that no one knows _what _to measure.  Audiophile amps are such a niche market that doing it by ear with the benefit of experience from lots of trial and error is easier than some huge study to find out what measurements are correlated with what perceptions.
   
  Your single FR test is the same as comparing the acceleration of a top fuel dragster to that of a rally car, and concluding the dragster will win a rally race.


----------



## High_Q

^I agree, there are so many variables that you cannot pinpoint just by hearing.  Our senses are limited so we have created measuring tools to detects what cannot be sensed.  Not only are our senses limited, we have perceptions that are very subjective to stimuli.  If you have have a college degree, I'm sure you have taken a psychology course goes indeph about how biased our perceptions can be, let alone fallacy of our memory.  Our eyes for example cannot detect electromagnetic waves outside of the visual sepectrum, and we have measurement tools that can detect waveforms outside that spectrum.


----------



## downsize

Quote: 





maverickronin said:


> Well obviously your brain is measuring something different if you can tell them apart so easily.  They only measure the same on that one test.  I don't think anyone claims that one FR test tells you everything you need to know about how an amp sounds.  Neither do other simple tests like THD and noise tell you everything.  Everything you need to know about an amp _can _be measured, but the problem is that no one knows _what _to measure.  Audiophile amps are such a niche market that doing it by ear with the benefit of experience from lots of trial and error is easier than some huge study to find out what measurements are correlated with what perceptions.
> 
> Your single FR test is the same as comparing the acceleration of a top fuel dragster to that of a rally car, and concluding the dragster will win a rally race.


 
   
  LOL .... There is zero placebo when both of you do not have ANY idea what to expect, and keep your opinions quiet until BOTH parties have listened, then reveal that both of you heard THE SAME exact things ... LOL
   
  This is called .... those amps sound different from each other. If it all sounds the same, then go buy a pawn shop receiver from the 1970s .... it will sound the same to you, and you can probably pick one up for $20.
   
  Placebo =  convincing yourself there are no audible differences.


----------



## Head Injury

Quote: 





downsize said:


> LOL .... There is zero placebo when both of you do not have ANY idea what to expect, and keep your opinions quiet until BOTH parties have listened, then reveal that both of you heard THE SAME exact things ... LOL
> 
> This is called .... those amps sound different from each other. If it all sounds the same, then go buy a pawn shop receiver from the 1970s .... it will sound the same to you, and you can probably pick one up for $20.
> 
> Placebo =  convincing yourself there are no audible differences.


 

 LOL have you heard of placebo?
   
  Your friend seems like a sporting type. I'm sure he wouldn't mind setting up a blind test-which-shall-not-be-named with you. Then you can actually prove that you heard the same thing and we won't have to go by word of mouth!


----------



## maverickronin

Quote: 





downsize said:


> LOL .... There is zero placebo when both of you do not have ANY idea what to expect, and keep your opinions quiet until BOTH parties have listened, then reveal that both of you heard THE SAME exact things ... LOL
> 
> This is called .... those amps sound different from each other. If it all sounds the same, then go buy a pawn shop receiver from the 1970s .... it will sound the same to you, and you can probably pick one up for $20.
> 
> Placebo =  convincing yourself there are no audible differences.


 

 Um...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  I'm going to assume you meant to to quote Head Injury


----------



## aimlink

Quote: 





tommarra said:


> @BIG POPPA: http://www.zuaudio.com/cables.html here is the website you wanna click Power and then select MK2 (thats the power cable I owned and sold)


 

 They say it will make my computer work better.


----------



## haloxt

People who think they should crusade against audiophile cables because of the price of some of them, remember you can DIY some cheap ones or get very thick stock cables. There's a lot of controversy over what geometry, shielding, purity, conductor material etc, sounds best. But one thing I think most cable believers also believe in, is that 24awg is much better than 33 awg for a headphone cable. A 4 conductor, fully shielded 24 awg cable can be had for less than 50 cents per foot. Or if you use lampcord you can get like 18 awg 3 conductor cables for cheap at home depot. Power cables can be cheap to make too, or you might stumble upon 12/3 or 14/3 awg stock power cables, which I'm pretty sure the majority of cable believers will say is better than say 22 awg power cables.
   
  What I'm trying to say is, if you can't convince them to choose stock cables over multithousand dollar cables, you can try to convince them to use cables with the same gauge and shielding coverage as multithousand dollar cables that cost much less. Your crusade against expensive aftermarket cables will be successful if you can do this, and it won't offend as many audiophiles, who know that the biggest flaws with stock cables are gauge and shielding. Stock or DIY cables costing a few dollars will not have the same purity or conductor material as expensive cables, of course.


----------



## SP Wild

I braided 3 8 gauge auto power cables into furutech connectors - They are great, cheap and upgraded.


----------



## maverickronin

Quote: 





haloxt said:


> What I'm trying to say is, if you can't convince them to choose stock cables over multithousand dollar cables, you can try to convince them to use cables with the same gauge and shielding coverage as multithousand dollar cables that cost much less. Your crusade against expensive aftermarket cables will be successful if you can do this, and it won't offend as many audiophiles, who know that the biggest flaws with stock cables are gauge and shielding. Stock or DIY cables costing a few dollars will not have the same purity or conductor material as expensive cables, of course.


 

 That's something I can get behind, if for no other reason than it looks cool.  DIY is always a big plus in my book, too.  Just don't go making unproven claim about it though.


----------



## Prog Rock Man

Quote: 





big poppa said:


> In my experience anti-cablers don't want to spend the money upfront to find out for themselves. They would rather ask a million questions instead of experimenting and disclosing their findings that they are so interested in. Just my 2 cents. I am a doer, some anti-cablers just sit on the sidelines and just discount what ever somebody does.


 

 I am the opposite in that my experience of pro-cablers is that they would rather ask a million questions instead of experimenting and disclosing their findings. I am a doer in that I have spent a long time researching blind/ABX tests on the internet and then put them all together in a thread on this forum. I am a doer who has, by teaching himself to solder and buying parts randomly and cheaply off ebay made ICs which stand up to any others I have heard. So after spending money, time and research I am now an anti-cabler.

  
  Quote: 





big poppa said:


> It is not business. Just a hobby.


 

 It is both, the business caters for the hobby and just like so many other instances the two often overlap as well.


----------



## BIG POPPA

Haloxt, the majority of people who don't get the cable thing is the casual audio enthusiast. They usually have not been into audio that long or have entry level gear. The more you spend on gear, the more you pay attention on what compliments the sound. Your local dealer who sold you the gear will be a great source to check out cables to enhance your listening pleasure. Yes I know some buy all their gear online, look for the best deal, and don't care for the one on one customer service. Yes there is a premium for one on one customer service, it is called full retail. Some will never want to pay full retail. But in return you can get some good advice . Yes I know there are not some so honest out there. It is like that for anything though. I know some will never want to walk into the local audio shop for what ever reason. That is a waste of a good resource IMO.


----------



## Head Injury

Quote: 





big poppa said:


> Haloxt, the majority of people who don't get the cable thing is the casual audio enthusiast. They usually have not been into audio that long or have entry level gear.


 

 Do you have a source, or are you just talking out your outlet?
   
  No amount of "experience" will make a power cable actually sound different if there are no real differences in sound. That makes sense, right? So until someone proves that there are audible differences, why would I waste my time and money getting "experience"? This ain't an MMORPG where suddenly I gain a level and learn a new ability.


----------



## Lenni

What do you know about these tests? Who was involved? What gear? What cables? How long was the test for? What were they testing? Was the difference in sound? Was the difference in cables (cheap v expensive)? What were they trying to prove? How was the test carried out? Were they swapping cable at regular intervals? Every 5mins / hours / days?
  there are a lot of variables that should be taken into consideration before making a final conclusion – Im not sure you are. do you have a link to the tests? I really’d like to do one of these tests.
   
  another brief example I can make from personal experience (and Im not making it up) is about a pair of interconnects I once bought; it was a good deal, and I didn’t bother checking for reviews. I just checked the manufacture’s website description. I liked them. I went for it. then I forgot about it until they arrived, and started using them. after I got my first impressions, there was something I wasn’t too happy them, so I decided to check Google for reviews, and – surprise, surprise – most of the reviews (website reviews, and general impressions from users who used the cables) reflected exactly my impressions.
  how is your friggen placebo effect gonna fit in it, huh?
   
  In some ways cables could be compared to a car’s exhaust. try putting a Fiesta’s exhaust into a BMW. The BMW’s still gonna work, still gonna drive, but how is gonna perform? not to its full capability. of course, cables are only as good as your source, amp, and speakers. putting a BMW exhaust in a Fiesta is not gonna make the Fiesta perform like a BMW. do are really need to spell it out for you? 
   
   
  This is really funny. Hey _"prorockman" _how long have you been making cables? a couple of weeks? you’ve learnt _on the Net_ how to solder a couple of cables, and now you’re Mr. Expert who can make cables as good as any other. Is that right? LMAO.
   
  Im outa here. I wasted enough time as it is. I don’t know why BIG POPPA still bother commenting. I'll live you to your findings. believe whatever you want. last of my problems
   
  I'll see you around, sayonara

  Quote: 





head injury said:


> So how do you explain the utter failure of tests where different cables (usually three) are covered so as to be blind, sent _to the tester's home_ where the tester may then listen for an extended period on his own gear and with his own songs just as would happen with a purchased cable? The scores for individual testers are not often better than guessing, often completely off, and what differences they describe or preferences they have are usually contradictory. I think there's one or more in Prog's audiophile myths thread.
> 
> I can listen to the same song in two different hours and hear completely different things. No cable switching needed. Audio memory is terrible, so if it's not blind then it means nothing to anyone but yourself.


----------



## sp70

If I may give another opinion here, I think this is really simple:
   
  Lenni, you are merely arguing your subjective opinion vs people asking for objective evidence. This does not mean your opinions are wrong, or not valid, it simply means that due to the nature of your "evidence" (subjective) it cannot be used to draw an (objective) conclusion upon.
   
  Head Injury and Prog Rock Man just want some measurable evidence that these cables make a tangible difference that is *not* personal opinion (subjective). It seems to me that thus far you have no been able to provide any so we are right back where we started. Also, labeling an opponent in an attempt to discredit them ("peasant") is not a fair or mature way to hold a debate. sp70.


----------



## Head Injury

Quote: 





lenni said:


> What do you know about these tests? Who was involved? What gear? What cables? How long was the test for? What were they testing? Was the difference in sound? Was the difference in cables (cheap v expensive)? What were they trying to prove? How was the test carried out? Were they swapping cable at regular intervals? Every 5mins / hours / days?
> there are a lot of variables that should be taken into consideration before making a final conclusion – Im not sure you are. do you have a link to the tests? I really’d like to do one of these tests.\
> 
> *Like I said, there's some in Prog Rock Man's thread about testing myths. Maybe not. One was conducted here at Head-fi at one point, which I believe was with interconnects but I'm not interested in looking for the thread. Another was done with mains cables.*
> ...


----------



## Lenni

I'm not that interested in continuing the argument for win sake. I said what I wanted to to say. I made my point. sorry, there’s nothing else I can say.  I don’t need to do anything. I know what I know, you believe whatever you believe . It’s fine by me. get yourself the cheapest possible system, and if you enjoy that, good for you. Imagine all the $$$ you’ve saved!
  I won’t / can’t. period. 
   
  3:30am Im going to sleep


----------



## Uncle Erik

lenni said:


> I'm not that interested in continuing the argument for win sake. I said what I wanted to to say. I made my point. sorry, there’s nothing else I can say.  I don’t need to do anything. I know what I know, you believe whatever you believe . It’s fine by me. get yourself the cheapest possible system, and if you enjoy that, good for you. Imagine all the $$$ you’ve saved!
> 
> 
> I won’t / can’t. period.
> ...




<

 Well, you really can save a lot of money and get top performance with the cheap cables. I've tried both and have never heard a difference with the expensive cables. I followed up with measurements on my test gear, which also failed to reveal a difference.

 Really, the only way you can know for sure if a cable makes a difference is to listen to it without knowing what you're listening to. The human mind introduces all sorts of preconceptions and biases that affect what you hear. Human bias is a given - you cannot trust yourself.

 If you're going to be open-minded about things, why not consider the possibility that what you "hear" is mostly your preconceptions and expectations? Have you ever eaten at a restaurant or seen a movie where people you know, beforehand, told you how wonderful it would be? Those sorts of things affect your experience when you have the experience. The same thing happens with cables. You read a bunch of reviews and people tell you how wonderful something is and that sets up a bunch of expectations.

 Trying to draw a comparison to a car's exhaust system doesn't quite work. You can actually measure the flow of an exhaust and get real numbers off a dynamometer. Putting cables on a DMM or an oscilloscope (and I have) fails to reveal a difference.

 A better analogy would be the many blind taste tests of wine. It's been shown that giving someone an unmarked sample and telling them that it is, for example, a $150 wine leads to higher marks. If you give them the same exact wine and tell them that it is a $15 wine leads to lower marks. This has been demonstrated.

 Since no difference can be revealed with test equipment nor has anyone ever passed a blind cable test, it seems very likely that the differences are the product of expectation. And expectations really do affect how people perceive the world. I do believe that some people are happier with a $500 power cable than with the $1 power cables that I use. The problem is that there isn't a difference when you get down to it. Nothing heard, nothing measured. Ever.

 Scientific measurement aside, what I really find curious about power cords is that people claim the same effect no matter the power supply the cord is being fed into. There is a vast difference between types of power supplies. If there truly was a difference between power cords, they'd behave differently depending on the supply. A tube rectified supply would behave differently than one with solid state rectification. A DC filament supply would behave differently than an AC supply. Yet the "differences" are always the same no matter what they go into. That's just another piece of evidence that - to me - shows that power cords (and all the rest) are nothing more than folklore and big profits for the manufacturers.


----------



## JamesL

Quote: 





haloxt said:


> People who think they should crusade against audiophile cables because of the price of some of them, remember you can DIY some cheap ones or get very thick stock cables. There's a lot of controversy over what geometry, shielding, purity, conductor material etc, sounds best. But one thing I think most cable believers also believe in, is that 24awg is much better than 33 awg for a headphone cable. A 4 conductor, fully shielded 24 awg cable can be had for less than 50 cents per foot. Or if you use lampcord you can get like 18 awg 3 conductor cables for cheap at home depot. Power cables can be cheap to make too, or you might stumble upon 12/3 or 14/3 awg stock power cables, which I'm pretty sure the majority of cable believers will say is better than say 22 awg power cables.
> 
> What I'm trying to say is, if you can't convince them to choose stock cables over multithousand dollar cables, you can try to convince them to use cables with the same gauge and shielding coverage as multithousand dollar cables that cost much less. Your crusade against expensive aftermarket cables will be successful if you can do this, and it won't offend as many audiophiles, who know that the biggest flaws with stock cables are gauge and shielding. Stock or DIY cables costing a few dollars will not have the same purity or conductor material as expensive cables, of course.


 
  I think even some non-cable believers can support that a 33awg _might_ sound worse than a 24awg cable.  R=ρL/A, P = I^2/R.. amplifier is presented with a different load and may behave differently.  Tiny amount of power lost to cable for a decibel loss, and maybe some other stuff as well.
  Personally, I don't think that there enough of a difference for someone to be able to consistently find an audible difference, but I'm certainly open to that possibility.
   
  I find it funny though how the cable-believers become the "audiophiles" and the cable non-believers .. well.. become the non-audiophiles?
   
  You commented on subjective/objective impressions somewhere and I just want to add to that.
  I'm of the non-believer group and yes, I would need credible objective proof to change my mind, but that doesn't mean that I think that objective proof is more important than subjective impressions.  
  Subjective listening is still the best way to decide if one equipment sounds better than another.. without a doubt.
  However, objective testing is the only way to prove there is really some kind of difference.
   
Re:Haloxt "Sometimes when people want to prove something is real, they do what they can to increase the likelihood of it occurring. In this case, since there happens to be so much difficulty testing power cables in past blind tests, it may not be a bad idea to try to see if longer cables will enable differences between power cables to finally be heard in an objective test. "
   
  It would definitely be a start.  Even if you're able to objectively tell a difference using a 100ft cable of reasonable gauge, it'll open me up to the possibility that regular-length cables make a difference.
   
   
Re:downsize"As an interesting side note related to this topic, I have met a new local Headfi friend who is an absolute GENIOUS of an electrical engineer. I mean he is really brilliant !  He threw together the amplifier in the photos here in about 4 hours one afternoon. It measures within .05 db of flat from 10hz to 50k.

   

He brought this amp over to my place a couple of weeks ago to compare it to my Blue Circle SBH amp. Both of these are plenty  powerful amps, with quality separate power supplies. He for the life of him could not figure out why my SBH sounds so much more transparent, and has a slightly higher level of musicality. BOTH AMPS WILL MEASURE THE SAME .... so they should sound the same .... .Yeah right."

   
  From what you've said about him, he seems like a well-educated guy, but if he couldn't figure out why they might not sound the same, I certainly don't think of him as a genius.  
  Saying that it measures .05db flat within the audible range does NOT mean they measure the same.  It means that both amps have the same tolerance in frequency response... it doesn't mean that both frequency responses were the same.  If he measured that the two amps had the same amount of distortion, maybe he doesn't know what type of distortion that the amp presents.  Maybe the two amps reacts differently to different loads.  there are dozens if not hundreds of different ways of qualifying distortion... 
   
  For instance, you can paint your room blue or red of the same saturation&brightness and can say that it has the same amount of "color", but that doesn't mean they're the same right?


----------



## BIG POPPA

Hey Head Injury,
  My source is an Arcam 73T. It has an IEC port too. I do swap cables with it also. I have had it going on 2 years. I have a decent Hi-Fi set up. What is your source again? My gear goes to a lot of Head-fi meets in my area for other Head-fiers to audition. Yes it does take money to get experience sometimes.? That is why it is a hobby. It takes experience to learn how to dissect what you are listening to. Cry and belly ache all you want about "wasting your money and time getting experience". Not everybody see's things that way. If it is too much, there are other hobbies?
  
  Quote: 





head injury said:


> Do you have a source, or are you just talking out your outlet?
> 
> No amount of "experience" will make a power cable actually sound different if there are no real differences in sound. That makes sense, right? So until someone proves that there are audible differences, why would I waste my time and money getting "experience"? This ain't an MMORPG where suddenly I gain a level and learn a new ability.


----------



## maverickronin

Quote: 





jamesl said:


> I think even some non-cable believers can support that a 33awg _might_ sound worse than a 24awg cable.  R=ρL/A, P = I^2/R.. amplifier is presented with a different load and may behave differently.  Tiny amount of power lost to cable for a decibel loss, and maybe some other stuff as well.


 
   
  You don't have to _believe _something that can be objectively demonstrated.  You _know_ it.  It stays true whether you believe it or not.  I, along with most of the people you would call non believers will _accept_ claims that can be demonstrated, tested, and proven.
   
  Relatively simple mathematics will tell you what gauge of wire you need for the impedance of a given load.  We're talking about headphones here though.  Almost all headphones have much higher impedance than loudspeakers, and as such can use much thinner wire.  For example a pair of HD650s with 300 ohm nominal impedance, could be run from 22 meters of 33 gauge wire before the resistance of the wire became audible.  Of course, thicker wire is more durable, so it usually makes sense to use it in stationary applications where size and weight are not at a premium.  If you use fancy OFC or silver, with lower resistance than plain copper, then you can use cables a bit longer or a bit thinner, but that's really all it does.  No one has any evidence to the contrary.
   
  AFIK nobody's saying cables _never _make a difference.  What most of us are saying is that a multi-kilo-buck cable isn't any better than an appropriately selected monoprice cable.  The reason we say that is because no one on the other side has ever produced any objective, empirical evidence to prove that it is.  The burden of proof lies on them, not us, because they are the ones making the positive claim.


----------



## Head Injury

Quote: 





big poppa said:


> Hey Head Injury,
> My source is an Arcam 73T. It has an IEC port too. I do swap cables with it also. I have had it going on 2 years. I have a decent Hi-Fi set up. What is your source again? My gear goes to a lot of Head-fi meets in my area for other Head-fiers to audition. Yes it does take money to get experience sometimes.? That is why it is a hobby. It takes experience to learn how to dissect what you are listening to. Cry and belly ache all you want about "wasting your money and time getting experience". Not everybody see's things that way. If it is too much, there are other hobbies?


 

 Source.
   
  I'm perfectly content with this hobby. After all, I'm here to listen to music, not cables.


----------



## BIG POPPA

Me too, ask my wife? I buy too many cd's? My latest addiction is buying new music all the time.
  Quote: 





head injury said:


> Source.
> 
> I'm perfectly content with this hobby. After all, I'm here to listen to music, not cables.


----------



## Spelaeus

I'm honestly at a loss as to what you're trying to prove, Big Poppa. You claim that high-end cables make an audible difference. Okay, cool. That's interesting. So people who are interested in getting the most out of their music ask you for objective evidence that cables actually make a difference, since the available evidence would indicate the contrary (the plural of anecdote is not evidence). You then repeatedly respond with your own subjective observations. And given the powerful influence that a preconceived bias can have coupled with poor memory for audio, subjective observations are just not enough to go on. Especially when there is so much objective evidence to the contrary. But then, instead of attempting to satisfy reasonable requests for objective verification, you become snarky and begin talking about how good your audio setup is, and how much money you've poured into it while belittling anyone who would dare question making the same choices that you do. You go so far as to imply that those who aren't willing to blindly spend as much money as you aren't even qualified to engage in the audiophile hobby. This is just plain arrogance, and frankly a tremendous turnoff to someone who might be interested about finding out more about the role of cables in an audio setup. This thread has degenerated into a few people discussing the available research on cables while a few "cable believers" respond by trying to prove that they have the biggest and best audio setup on the block.
   
  Let's face facts, as of now there is no measurable difference between a "low-end" cable of adequate make and specifications and a comparable "high-end" cable costing significantly more. Any claims that cables make a real difference need some hard evidence backing them up, not just anecdotal claims. So if you truly believe that power cables are as important as you claim, how about joining the conversation and discussing actual evidence rather than just supplying anecdotal observations and belittling others when those anecdotes aren't sufficient.
  Quote: 





big poppa said:


> Hey Head Injury,
> My source is an Arcam 73T. It has an IEC port too. I do swap cables with it also. I have had it going on 2 years. I have a decent Hi-Fi set up. What is your source again? My gear goes to a lot of Head-fi meets in my area for other Head-fiers to audition. Yes it does take money to get experience sometimes.? That is why it is a hobby. It takes experience to learn how to dissect what you are listening to. Cry and belly ache all you want about "wasting your money and time getting experience". Not everybody see's things that way. If it is too much, there are other hobbies?


----------



## BIG POPPA

Spelaeus, I see your point. Let me know what your observations after your first head-fi meet please? Money sometimes is a big requirement for this hobby. I make most of my own cables. I do know what works with my gear by trial and error. Ask Ken from Revolution Power? Spent a lot of money there finding out what works or doesn't. Also I go to demos and other audio club meetings. My knowledge with cables is by experience and not by heresy. I have buddies that come over and know when I have changed my rig without telling them. I have an ear for sound. So what, so do some a few friends of mine. Listen to my gear 4-6 hours a day, everyday. The next Seattle area meet is 7/17. Everyone is welcome. Call me arrogant, so what. I don't just sit around my computer and dispute everything. I actually get out and audition gear out. Just ask Larry from Resolution Audio for example. My knowledge is not from the internet. Yes I can tell you the difference between the Oyaide Tunami and the Cardas Reference by experience for example. If your gear is capable please audition some good cables. You just might like what you hear?


----------



## tommarra

Quote: 





aimlink said:


> They say it will make my computer work better.


 

 This is the kind of exact baloney that these power cord makers try to sell you..


----------



## Prog Rock Man

Quote: 





lenni said:


> What do you know about these tests? Who was involved? What gear? What cables? ...........
> 
> 
> This is really funny. Hey _"prorockman" _how long have you been making cables? a couple of weeks? you’ve learnt _on the Net_ how to solder a couple of cables, and now you’re Mr. Expert who can make cables as good as any other. Is that right? LMAO.........


 

 Links to tests here http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/486598/testing-audiophile-claims-and-myths
   
  I am not Mr Expert, which is my point. If I can do it, so can anyone else.


----------



## Head Injury

Quote: 





big poppa said:


> Spelaeus, I see your point. Let me know what your observations after your first head-fi meet please? Money sometimes is a big requirement for this hobby. I make most of my own cables. I do know what works with my gear by trial and error. Ask Ken from Revolution Power? Spent a lot of money there finding out what works or doesn't. Also I go to demos and other audio club meetings. My knowledge with cables is by experience and not by heresy. I have buddies that come over and know when I have changed my rig without telling them. I have an ear for sound. So what, so do some a few friends of mine. Listen to my gear 4-6 hours a day, everyday. The next Seattle area meet is 7/17. Everyone is welcome. Call me arrogant, so what. I don't just sit around my computer and dispute everything. I actually get out and audition gear out. Just ask Larry from Resolution Audio for example. My knowledge is not from the internet. Yes I can tell you the difference between the Oyaide Tunami and the Cardas Reference by experience for example. If your gear is capable please audition some good cables. You just might like what you hear?


 

 I'd like to make clear that this post is the exact opposite of seeing his point.


----------



## maverickronin

Quote: 





big poppa said:


> Spelaeus, I see your point. Let me know what your observations after your first head-fi meet please?


 

 I heard a lot of 'phones hooked up to fancy and expensive cables, and the to same models with stock cabling, at canjam.  I couldn't tell a difference between the different cables.  As far as I could tell, the evidence supported my original hypothesis, which was based on logic, but little actual experience.  That would be the ranking of factors affecting SQ is roughly, Source File > Headphones > Amp > DAC > Most Everything Else > Cables.
   
  That's not exactly the best controlled experiment possible, but they are my first hand observations.


----------



## bridge8989

no way, upgrading my power cord helped my computer run crysis!!!!!11
  Quote: 





tommarra said:


> This is the kind of exact baloney that these power cord makers try to sell you..


----------



## sp70




----------



## 9pintube

GO Ahead give me some crap over this post,if you must!!!   We all know there are 2 maybe 3 "CAMPS" on A.C.Cables, I.C.s, Speaker, Digital and even HDMI connecting Wires, RIGHT! So why all the trash talk back and forth between "US"???.. One more time from me,* I like building and using DIY "Knock Offs" of the Hi-Priced cables and wires! * For those of you who don't believe in (hearing a difference) that's fine........Oh! I have been Placeeeeboed by my own cables, We All had a GOOD LAUGH!!!   I guess many of you would crap if you saw my cables wrapped in the "Shun-Mook" cable jackets and up off the floor in my Main Rm,.. That's ok. It pleases me and sounds GREAT!!!!  So we can argue with each other until the "cows come home", on this subject but I wonder what the 1st time readers are thinking about "US" as a group........Who, I believe often enjoy (mostly for a good laugh) each others comments and each of OUR quest to get the best SQ from our systems.................JMO.


----------



## BIG POPPA

That is awesome you build cables for your own use,me too. You don't have to spend a lot of money to make a good cable. It is funny not more people know that. You don't even have to solder a power cable. Who would of thunk it? Yes some posts get me rolling laughing too.


----------



## MichealAngelo

Cables do make a difference, but you dont have to spend alot of money for good ones, the reason cables sound different or better from each other is because of the differences in impedance and capaticance*,  the number of strands , the gauge of strand, the overall gauge and so forth affects this. Ideally the best type of cable would be a flat or foil cable because this would offer the lowest impedance and lowesst capaticance.


----------



## SleepyOne

Quote: 





big poppa said:


> That is awesome you build cables for your own use,me too. You don't have to spend a lot of money to make a good cable. It is funny not more people know that. You don't even have to solder a power cable. Who would of thunk it? Yes some posts get me rolling laughing too.


 

 X2
   
  Just materials cost and your own time. No soldering. Easy and fun too.


----------



## Head Injury

Quote: 





michealangelo said:


> Cables do make a difference, but you dont have to spend alot of money for good ones, the reason cables sound different or better from each other is because of the differences in impedance and capaticance*,  the number of strands , the gauge of strand, the overall gauge and so forth affects this. Ideally the best type of cable would be a flat or foil cable because this would offer the lowest impedance and lowesst capaticance.


 

 Could you back up all of those claims with sources? As in, research that shows impedance makes a difference, capacitance makes a difference, strand count makes a difference, gauge makes a difference, and so forth makes a difference?


----------



## maverickronin

Capacitance can make a difference _if _you have a very long run of cable.  At least 50 feet before it starts to attenuate the highest treble.  At the lengths most people actually use, and the the voltages and frequencies most people transmit over them (ie audio) capacitance makes no difference.  If you want to see an actual application of excess capacitance in a wire causing improper operation get a look at cheap CCFL from someone, tweaked PC or car.  Those light operated from several hundred volts at at least 20Khz AC.  Close your fist over the wire between the light and the transformer watch it get dimmer.  Try to splice in 6 extra feet of wire and see if it light up at all.  So unless you're playing back ultrasound over your 5000 watt hypertweeter for you dog or something, capacitance isn't a issue.
   
  Strands don't matter at all, and before anyone says 'skin effect' let me point out that it does not occur at audio frequencies.


----------



## Uncle Erik

Every believer seems to overlook the fact that there are a wide variety of power supplies in use. If a cable made the same "improvement" on every power supply it would be very odd indeed. It would be like insisting that chocolate sauce poured over any food would be delicious. That the chocolate sauce made things better whether it was on ice cream or a piece of garlic pork. It is equally ridiculous to expect the same cable (assuming, arguendo, there is a difference) to have the same effect on a diode rectifier and a tube rectifier. A little technical knowledge shows that they work on *very* different principles. If people think the effect is the same on each, that is a strong indicator pointing at the "difference" being entirely psychological. As does everything else in the cable debate.


----------



## Draca

A classic.
  
  Quote: 





sp70 said:


>


 

 Nonetheless, I eagerly await the time for the notorious pro-cable army to be recognised for what it actually is; a bunch of scientifically ignorant internet personalities arguing about the infallibility of their senses and the suspension of the laws of physics.
   
  Hopefully 'acablism' will become prevalent on head-fi, but that might require the withdrawal of certain commercial interests...


----------



## Head Injury

Quote: 





uncle erik said:


> Every believer seems to overlook the fact that there are a wide variety of power supplies in use. If a cable made the same "improvement" on every power supply it would be very odd indeed.


 

 Some could even say...

   
  The chocolate sauce thing though, I disagree with. I've tried lots of chocolate sauces with my dinner and they all tasted good. I build my own bottles and don't spend much. You need to come out to a meet and try it, only then will you be able to see reason.


----------



## haloxt

Draca, I also foresee the death of empirical science.


----------



## maverickronin

Quote: 





head injury said:


> Some could even say...


 

 That's what it boils down to.  A least no one here (so far...) is 6moons crazy.  Their name recall the etymology of the word 'lunatic".


----------



## BIG POPPA

Look at these http://www.tartancable.com/stereo-cables/index.htm  Cheap, very cheap.
  They are made by Blue Jeans Cable. I have been to the shop several times. It is a few minutes from my house. Great guys.


----------



## Prog Rock Man

Quote: 





uncle erik said:


> Every believer seems to overlook the fact that there are a wide variety of power supplies in use. If a cable made the same "improvement" on every power supply it would be very odd indeed. It would be like insisting that chocolate sauce poured over any food would be delicious. That the chocolate sauce made things better whether it was on ice cream or a piece of garlic pork. It is equally ridiculous to expect the same cable (assuming, arguendo, there is a difference) to have the same effect on a diode rectifier and a tube rectifier. A little technical knowledge shows that they work on *very* different principles. If people think the effect is the same on each, that is a strong indicator pointing at the "difference" being entirely psychological. As does everything else in the cable debate.


 

 Though playing devil's advocate, that can also explain why cables 'work' with some setups and a difference can be heard and 'do not work' with other setups.


----------



## haloxt

I just made this today, it is 18x3awg stock power cable shortened to 3 inches. It is my answer to patrick's judge cable . After a few minutes of listening, I think I hear more clarity in mids than with my 3 ft 14 awg cable, but still not the kind of coherent high frequency bloom I had with only thick power cables. 
   

   
  Pics of the power cables in my rig http://img5.imageshack.us/g/cimg0546j.jpg/
   
  wall outlet>4.5 feet audio-gd power cable>ac-215>diy small cable>audio-gd power filter (yes I know two power conditioners in a row is bad, but it sounds okay to me ^^)>2x more audio-gd power cables, one to dac another to amp.
   
  I will do more listening tests, if it sounds good, I will try to make it by soldering copper power connectors together and no wires at all.


----------



## beeman458

*Seriously though, why would you ever consider replacing your power cord with and aftermarket power cord.*
   
  I got this one.   Because it's the length I want; ten or twelve feet.  Has excellent build quality, is shielded and has a great looking knit cover.  What's not to like?  Nothing wrong with wanting your gear to look good.


----------



## JamesL

Quote: 





beeman458 said:


> I got this one.   Because it's the length I want; ten or twelve feet.  Has excellent build quality, is shielded and has a great looking knit cover.  What's not to like?  Nothing wrong with wanting your gear to look good.


 
  Absolutely.  No problem at all.  
  I confess, I've even spent money before making the _insides_ of my PC look nice.  
   
  The debate only begins when the "sound of the power cord" gets involved.


----------



## beeman458

I'm purposely staying out of that can of worms as what I can or can't hear, don't matter.  Why?  Because they're my set of ears and it's my bliss.  Besides, every time anybody opens up a can of worms, all they got's looking back at them is a bunch of worms.  This, no matter how hard they try and look.
   
  Heard a $55k (USD) sound system today..........I want one but my room is too small.
   




   
  Now, if I can only open up the sound stage on these headphones and get some more separation while removing some of this veiling, I'll be in tall cotton.


----------



## JamesL

Quote: 





beeman458 said:


> I'm purposely staying out of that can of worms as what I can or can't hear, don't matter.  Why?  Because they're my set of ears and it's my bliss.  Besides, every time anybody opens up a can of worms, all they got's looking back at them is a bunch of worms.  This, no matter how hard they try and look.


 

 You're my new favorite person
   
  edit -
  I spoke too soon.. you quickly made it to the bottom of my list


----------



## beeman458

*The debate only begins when the "sound of the power cord" gets involved.*
   
  Bad news, the sound of the power cord got involved and it sucked.  Now I have a two hundred dollar audiophile grade, ten foot power cord that's only good for providing current to the Christmas tree lights.
   
  (Why no crying emoticon, when you need one.)


----------



## Head Injury

Quote: 





beeman458 said:


> *The debate only begins when the "sound of the power cord" gets involved.*
> 
> Bad news, the sound of the power cord got involved and it sucked.  Now I have a two hundred dollar audiophile grade, ten foot power cord that's only good for providing current to the Christmas tree lights.
> 
> (Why no crying emoticon, when you need one.)


 

 At least you've got one really hi-fi Christmas tree now.


----------



## beeman458

*At least you've got one really hi-fi Christmas tree now.*
   
  Maybe Santa will leave me better presents.
   




   
  What was even worse, it looked cheap and didn't even look good.
   
  "You paid how much for that?!"
   
  Boo, Hoo, Hoo!


----------



## Uncle Erik

beeman458, try your magic power cord with your microwave oven. I hear it makes food tastier.


----------



## JamesL

don't be silly.  microwave cables are hard-wired in.
   
  Just sell it and move on.


----------



## beeman458

*Just sell it and move on.*
   
  Thanks for the suggestion but I can't sell something that I know doesn't work as described.  That would be unethical.  I'm happy to eat the purchase price and I'm happy to continue using the three dollar computer power cable which works better.


----------



## Lenni

correct me if I'm wrong - if one cable sucks  and the other is better (your words), I assume you hear differences between the cables.  according to many scientific hypotheses (gravity?!?) there are really no audible differences between cables;  cables make no diffirence.
  what's the story 
   correct me if I'm wrong - if one cable sucks  and the other is better (your words), I assume you hear differences between the cables.  according to many scientific hypotheses (gravity?!?) there are really no audible differences between cables;  cables make no diffirence.
  what's the story 
  correct me if I'm wrong, if one cable sucks  and the other is better (your words), I assume you hear differences between the cables.  according to your scientific hypotheses there are really no audible differences between cables - they're all the same - cables play no part in sound quality.
   
  what's the story?
  what's the story 

  correct me if I'm wrong - if one cable sucks  and the other is better (your words), I assume you hear differences between the cables.  according to many scientific hypotheses (gravity?!?) there are really no audible differences between cables;  cables make no diffirence.
  what's the story 
   correct me if I'm wrong - if one cable sucks  and the other is better (your words), I assume you hear differences between the cables.  according to many scientific hypotheses (gravity?!?) there are really no audible differences between cables;  cables make no diffirence.
  what's the story 
   correct me if I'm wrong - if one cable sucks  and the other is better (your words), I assume you hear differences between the cables.  according to many scientific hypotheses (gravity?!?) there are really no audible differences between cables;  cables make no diffirence.
  what's the story 
   


  Quote: 





beeman458 said:


> Bad news, the sound of the power cord got involved and it sucked.  Now I have a two hundred dollar audiophile grade, ten foot power cord that's only good for providing current to the Christmas tree lights.


----------



## Head Injury

Quote: 





lenni said:


> correct me if I'm wrong - if one cable sucks  and the other is better (your words), I assume you hear differences between the cables.  according to many scientific hypotheses (gravity?!?) there are really no audible differences between cables;  cables make no diffirence.
> what's the story
> correct me if I'm wrong - if one cable sucks  and the other is better (your words), I assume you hear differences between the cables.  according to many scientific hypotheses (gravity?!?) there are really no audible differences between cables;  cables make no diffirence.
> what's the story
> ...


 

 Placebo.


----------



## Uncle Erik

Quote: 





lenni said:


> correct me if I'm wrong - if one cable sucks  and the other is better (your words), I assume you hear differences between the cables.  according to many scientific hypotheses (gravity?!?) there are really no audible differences between cables;  cables make no diffirence.
> what's the story
> correct me if I'm wrong - if one cable sucks  and the other is better (your words), I assume you hear differences between the cables.  according to many scientific hypotheses (gravity?!?) there are really no audible differences between cables;  cables make no diffirence.
> what's the story
> ...


 
   
  You're making the assumption that an audible "difference" is a result of a physical difference in cables.
   
  If you want to be scientific about this, there are two fundamental questions:
   
  1.  Is there a physical difference in cables that leads to audible differences?
  2.  Is the human listening to cables actually hearing a difference, or is the heard difference a result of placebo, expectation and belief?
   
  Whenever you try to answer number one with testing, no audible difference turns up.
   
  Whenever you try to answer number two, you repeatedly get results that show human bias.
   
  Here's something to think about: even if a difference is eventually demonstrated scientifically, it must be incredibly small.  Almost insignificantly small.  Why?  Because careful testing of cables and humans has missed it so far.  If it was an obvious phenomenon, then people would pass blind tests without much trouble and endless handwringing over minute protocol differences.  Similarly, if the effect was easily found, it would show up as anomalies in tested results.  You'd get slightly off readings and ones that didn't fit with Ohm's law.  There might be a mysterious element, but still, it would affect known parameters.


----------



## beeman458

*according to your scientific hypotheses there are really no audible differences between cables - they're all the same - cables play no part in sound quality.*
   
  My apologies for the confusion.  The disconnect I unintentionally created was, even though I don't debate the issue, I'm still a cable kinda guy.  Why don't I debate the issue?  Because there's no point in doing so.  All one does in debating issues of this kind, is open a can of worms that just sits, looks at you and quietly wiggles around.  This, no matter how emphatic the discussion.


----------



## beeman458

*If it was an obvious phenomenon, then people would pass blind tests without much trouble and endless handwringing over minute protocol differences.*
   
  It's the parameters of the interpretation of the results that guarantees fail.  It's quite convenient that digital terms are used to define an analogue world.  Of course you're going have fail.
   
  See, there's no point in a debate.  When the world's genius get their collective heads out of their taught world bias, then you can have a real conversation.  Until then, you might as well be talking to the Borg,  And as everybody who knows about the Borg, there's no point wasting your time expecting to have a rational conversation.
   
  "You will be assimilated."
   
  What kind of rational conversation can one expect to have when the above is the anti-cable crowd's refrain.  Or is their refrain more along the lines of:
   
  "We're right, you're wrong.  Neenar, neenar, neenar."
   
  Either which way, you won't have a rational conversation.
   
  ???


----------



## beeman458

*Whenever you try to answer number two, you repeatedly get results that show human bias.*
   
  One problem with your above.......  In my case, the three dollar cable beat out the two hundred dollar cable.  Kinda puts a hole in the whole bias thingy as I'm now having to eat a bad purchase which cost me two hundred dollars.
   
  Boo, Hoo, Hoo!


----------



## Head Injury

Quote: 





beeman458 said:


> *Whenever you try to answer number two, you repeatedly get results that show human bias.*
> 
> One problem with your above.......  In my case, the three dollar cable beat out the two hundred dollar cable.  Kinda puts a hole in the whole bias thingy as I'm now having to eat a bad purchase which cost me two hundred dollars.
> 
> Boo, Hoo, Hoo!


 

 Not really. You're still biased since the cables sound the same but you don't think they do. You must not have been happy with your purchase after you made it. Your subconscious is trying to save you money in the future. You've got a pretty responsible one, you should be proud.
   
  It was probably linked in this thread, but here's a list of biases.


----------



## beeman458

*Not really. You're still biased since the cables sound the same but you don't think they do. *
   
  Absolutely amazing how you'd know that.  A suggestion, look the word up so you're on to it's "real" meaning as in this case, you're using the word incorrectly.
   
  FWIW, you won't draw me into a debate as I have no need to defend my position.  Making up rules so as to be sure and create self-serving "false" positives or negatives to push a personal agenda, is disingenuous at best and deceptively unethical at worse.
   
  Wanna buy a two hundred dollar Christmas tree light extension cord?  You see, I won't sell the cord at a discount as I hate making bad deals and I'd rather keep the unused cord for eternity then sell it at a loss and have to admit that I made a bad deal in the process.  Irrespective of my personal business bias', the cord sucks when it comes to it's sonic signature and your comments to the contrary won't change reality.
   
*You've got a pretty responsible one, you should be proud.*
   
  If you knew how willing I was to spend my money, you wouldn't write that.
   
  (Whistling icon goes here.)
   
*"...but here's a list..." *
   
  Now you want to discuss contemporary provincial fallacies of basic human psychology?
   
  ???
   
  No matter how much some folks want it to be a digital world, until the end of time, it will stay an analogue Universe.


----------



## maverickronin

Quote: 





beeman458 said:


> No matter how much some folks want it to be a digital world, until the end of time, it will stay an analogue Universe.


 

 Wrong
   
  Also I don't see what the dichotomy between "true" and "not true" has to do with that.


----------



## beeman458

*"Wrong"*
   
  And where did the content of your link say it was a digital Universe?
   
  ???
   
*Also I don't see what the dichotomy between "true" and "not true" has to do with that.*
   
  I don't recall commenting on Quantum Mechanics but the rational is simple on my part as folks are skewing rules to suit personal bias' and in this case, they're trying to sum up their findings in a digital discourse when they're dealing with the vagaries of an analogue pursuit they disagree with the existence of.
   
  The whole wire debate becomes invalidated when one tries to conveniently characterize results of a test as being nothing but a bunch of false positives based upon a self-serving digital canon when having trouble dealing with an analogue world.  It's called a power struggle.  You see, if someone wants to "think" that cables don't make a sonic difference in the production of sound waves, I'm good as nobody is going tell them they're foolish or call them names for not buying cables.  But don't expect me to accept false premises when in truth, it's about the emotional impact of the music, not what another thinks one should be hearing or doing with their money.  One really does need to explore why there's all this caring what others do with their money.
   
  Do you see how when it's all said and done, there's no debate here?
   
  ???


----------



## maverickronin

Quote: 





beeman458 said:


> "Wrong"
> 
> And where did your link say it was a digital Universe?
> 
> ???


 
   
  Right here
   
  Quote: 





> By assuming that energy can only be absorbed or released in tiny, differential, discrete packets he called "quanta," Planck accounted for the fact that certain objects change colour when heated


 
   
  All matter and energy exists as discrete amounts (ie digital), not infinite gradations (ie analog).  Therefore the universe is basically digital.  It may appear analog to blunt and imperfect senses, but deep down on the quantum level, we can see that it is not.
   
  Even if you, for example, had a turntable which was able to measure infinite variation on a record (which is also impossible anyway) there is a minimum amount of electric charge it can send to the pre amp.  The charge of one electron.  It can't send 1/2 an electron or 1 1/2 electron, it can only send whole electrons.  That's how the universe is digital.


----------



## beeman458

*By assuming that energy can only be absorbed or released in tiny, differential, discrete packets he called "quanta," Planck accounted for the fact that certain objects change colour when heated*
   
  I read that and it's not saying that Planck was stating it's a digital world.  Quanta could be bags of cement on a pallet in a hardware store or a bundle of lumber in a lumber yard.
   
*It can't send 1/2 an electron or 1 1/2 electron, it can only send whole electrons.  That's how the universe is digital.*
   
  Sorry, that's not digital.  The above is why there's no point in debating the issue as you're trying to take an analogue experience and reduce it down to component parts.  That's neither digital nor the real universe as unassembled pieces do not make a car a car until assembled.


----------



## maverickronin

Quote:


beeman458 said:


> You see, if someone wants to "think" that cables don't make a sonic difference in the production of sound waves, I'm good as nobody is going tell them they're foolish or call them names for not buying cables.  But don't expect me to accept false premises when in truth, it's about the emotional impact of the music, not what another thinks one should be hearing or doing with their money.  One really does need to explore why there's all this caring what others do with their money.


 

 I _will_ say they are foolish for spending money on power cables if I'm asked about it, but that's _not_ what I'm here to do.  It's like trying to argue someone out of their religion.  I'm here to inform people who don't know if expensive cables will make a difference so they can make rational decision and save some money.  If expensive power cables give you a warm and fuzzy feeling, then go ahead and buy them.  I'm here to tell people they don't make any detectable difference so they don't make a $200 mistake.
   
  As to why I care if other people waste their money?  Oh, I don't know, *empathy* maybe?


----------



## beeman458

*It's like trying to argue someone out of their religion.*
   
  Now why would anybody want to do that?
   
  ???
   
*As to why I care if other people waste their money?  Oh, I don't know, empathy maybe?*
   
  Well, that's very thoughtful of you.  But one thought, if wasting one's money, makes them happy, and you succeed in stopping them from wasting their money, haven't you now made them unhappy?  Why would you want to make people unhappy?


----------



## maverickronin

Maybe you don't quite understand what digital is.  Lets define it.
   
Quote: 





> Having to do with digits (fingers or toes); performed with a finger.
> Property of representing values as discrete numbers rather than a continuous spectrum.
> digital computer, digital clock
> 
> Of or relating to computers or the Computer Age.


 
   
  Read #2.  This is contrasted with analog which is...
   
Quote: 





> *analog*
> 
> (Device or system) in which the value of a data item (such as time) is represented by a continuously variable physical quantity that can be measured (such as the shadow of a sundial)


 
   
  My point is that to limited resolution of our senses the world appears to be analog, but if you zoom in to the fundamental structure of matter and energy you will find that it only ever exists in discrete quantities which is the definition of digital.


----------



## beeman458

*Maybe you don't quite understand what digital is.  Lets define it.*
   
  Now you're condescending.  Your above is a good example of why one shouldn't debate the issue.


----------



## maverickronin

Quote:


beeman458 said:


> *It's like trying to argue someone out of their religion.*
> 
> Now why would anybody want to do that?
> 
> ???


 
   
  Which is why I said that''s _not _what I'm here to do.  I'm not here to convince _you_.  I'm here so that other people will see this kind of argument and learn what they need to make up their mind.  I'm a proponent of rational thought and evidenced based reasoning, and I can't help myself but to promote it wherever I may be, even on a forum about headphones.


----------



## beeman458

*"...and I can't help myself but to promote it wherever I may be,..."*
   
  As I wrote, issues of control; Borg like behavior.
   
  "You will be assimilated."
   
  It doesn't matter what anybody thinks as long as they're not twisting your arm and actively climbing into your game.
   
*Which is why I said that''s not what I'm here to do.*
   
*I'm a proponent of rational thought and evidenced based reasoning, and I can't help myself but to promote it wherever I may be, even on a forum about headphones.*
   
  You do realize that the two above sentences are in conflict with each other?
   
  What you haven't grasped, the anti-cable group, isn't basing their reasoning on facts but are basing their reasoning on deductions based upon flawed test data, based upon invalid test parameters to evaluate the data they're evaluating.  Convenient yes, debatable on a rational level, no.  So, in the end, there's no point.


----------



## Head Injury

I heard the Borg use only the purest of silver stranded power cables to recharge their cubes.
   
  It's the difference between universal domination and an ***-kicking, I always say.
   
  Remember the cube in the First Contact movie? Yeah, apparently they didn't get the memo and only used silver-_plated_ cables. Look where it got them.


----------



## beeman458

That's because they're in an all fire hurry to conquer everything and they needed the speed of silver in which to do so.


----------



## maverickronin

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *beeman458* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Now you're condescending.  Your above is a good example of why one shouldn't debate the issue.


 

 Sometimes I come across that way.  That's the reason I came up my sig.  I probably could have phrased that post in a nicer fashion, but I'm just banging these things out without much proofreading.
   
  More importantly we need to agree on the definition of something if we are to have a discussion about it.  Basically you seemed to be coming from a "digital = computer, computer = bad for music" sort of perspective.  I'm trying to tell you that the real world is mostly digital, therefore digital is capable of capturing the 'emotion' of real life.  One may argue about the resolution needed to capture all the detail of real life, but not about whether such a system is possible.


----------



## Head Injury

Quote: 





beeman458 said:


> What you haven't grasped, the anti-cable group, isn't basing their reasoning on facts but are basing their reasoning on deductions based upon flawed test data, based upon invalid test parameters to evaluate the data they're evaluating.  Convenient yes, debatable on a rational level, no.  So, in the end, there's no point.


 

 Hey beeman! Mind telling us what test parameters are invalid and how they could be validated?
   
  I feel like I'm in one of those terrible chat rooms where everyone's talking at once and there's always that one guy who comes in late and insists on cybering with everyone. Not sure why.


----------



## beeman458

*I probably could have phrased that post in a nicer fashion, but I'm just banging these things out without much proofreading.*
   
  Fair enough.


----------



## maverickronin

Quote: 





beeman458 said:


> What you haven't grasped, the anti-cable group, isn't basing their reasoning on facts but are basing their reasoning on deductions based upon flawed test data, based upon invalid test parameters to evaluate the data they're evaluating.  Convenient yes, debatable on a rational level, no.  So, in the end, there's no point.


 

 So you're saying The Tests Which Cannot Be Named are flawed and incapable of detecting the differences between cables?


----------



## beeman458

*Hey beeman! Mind telling us what test parameters are invalid and how they could be validated?*
   
  Sure.  In an analogue world, even getting something right only ten percent of the time doesn't make for a negative; fail or guessing.
   
  Since music is an emotional issue, tests need to be conducted at level of "Coming at you live from the brain."  And to what extent, brain centers light up.  No matter how much one wants, they're not going get empirical information at the level of asking one what they heard and basing conclusions on arbitrary pass or fail percentages.


----------



## beeman458

*So you're saying The Tests Which Cannot Be Named are flawed and incapable of detecting the differences between cables?*
   
  There's no need to name any tests as they're all flawed or invalid; sighted, unsighted, double-blind, etc.  How can anybody debate flawed testing?  There's no point.
   
  What I don't understand is why would anybody would find need to step on folks enjoying their cables other than it's some sort of power, insecurity thingy.  One doesn't get it.  Cool.  Another gets it, good for them.  What's any of it matter other than in the final, one group seems to not want another group to enjoy themselves?


----------



## Head Injury

Quote: 





beeman458 said:


> *Hey beeman! Mind telling us what test parameters are invalid and how they could be validated?*
> 
> Sure.  In an analogue world, even getting something right only ten percent of the time doesn't make for a negative; fail or guessing.
> 
> Since music is an emotional issue, tests need to be conducted at level of "Coming at you live from the brain."  And to what extent, brain centers light up.  No matter how much one wants to, they're not going get any valid information at the level of asking one what they heard and basing conclusions on an arbitrary pass or fail percentage.


 

 So you say it's unfair that if a listener can't hear a difference between cables, we conclude that they can't hear a difference between cables?
   
  And you're also saying that if the listener feels no different emotions between cables, that's not enough and we have to measure the brain to make sure there is a difference in emotions?


----------



## beeman458

*So you say it's unfair that if a listener can't hear a difference between cables, we conclude that they can't hear a difference between cables?*
   
  Nope, didn't say that.  If somebody can't hear a difference, that doesn't mean they're not hearing a difference.  It's an analogue world.  All it means is the differences are below their noise threshold but that doesn't mean the differences aren't there.
   
*And you're also saying that if the listener feels no different emotions between cables, that's not enough and we have to measure the brain to make sure there is a difference in emotions?*
   
  No, I'm saying that if you want the truth, you'll have to wire the listener's brain up and see what lights up.  Now you're in unequivocally valid territory.  Anything else is a waste of time because the way things currently are, it's all arbitrary.  Until tests are done in this fashion, there's no debate as it's all biased based subjectivity on the part of the test givers.


----------



## Trogdor

Quote: 





dookky said:


> Seriously though, why would you ever consider replacing your power cord with and aftermarket power cord. I can understand wanting to make one yourself, there's an enjoyment factor there, but buying an incredibly expensive power cord with silver contacts and diamond studded earrings just sounds CRAZY to me. From my understanding, there is no way your power is going to be any "cleaner" by having one of these cables. If you're power is dirty coming from your socket (which is highly likely) then a cable is worthless, invest in a AC/DC converter. Even if your fifty feet away from your socket that can't compare to the hundreds of feet of solid core copper in your walls, not to mention the cables going to your closest transformer. Am I missing something here?


 


 To answer your original question:
   
  No.  Not really.


----------



## maverickronin

Quote:


beeman458 said:


> Sure.  In an analogue world, even getting something right only ten percent of the time doesn't make for a negative; fail or guessing.
> 
> Since music is an emotional issue, tests need to be conducted at level of "Coming at you live from the brain."  And to what extent, brain centers light up.  No matter how much one wants to, they're not going get any valid information at the level of asking one what they heard and basing conclusions on an arbitrary pass or fail percentage.


 

 No, just no...  That's so wrong I'm not even sure where to start first.  It's not quite "not even wrong" but it's close.  Statistics has ways of working out if differences exist, even if one is not correct 100% of the time.  These kinds of tests never indicate anything better than chance guessing.  It's not just pass/fail because even though there is a definite answer and the claim is either true or not true, our limited senses and technology cannot give us a definite answer.  That's why error bars exist.  These tests do not positively prove that cables have _no_ effect.  Positive proof exists only in pure mathematics.  The tests do show to a vanishingly small probability of error that any effect they do have is either 1) none at all, 2) completely inaudible, or 3) So tiny that only the best of golden ears can hear it.
   
  The chances of cables turning out to have an effect the average audio enthusiast can easily discern are likely equal to to me seeing an apple fall _upwards _from a tree in my yard tomorrow and instantly having a flash of inspiration that completely rewrites the laws of gravitation and relativity in a fashion that is consistent with everything science know about them so far, and explains my one anomalous observation.  And I don't even have a apple tree in my yard.  The odds are very likely within that same order of magnitude.


----------



## Head Injury

Quote: 





beeman458 said:


> Nope, didn't say that.  *If somebody can't hear a difference, that doesn't mean they're not hearing a difference.*  It's an analogue world.  All it means is the differences are below their noise threshold but that doesn't mean the differences aren't there.
> 
> *Kindly refer to the above bolded passage for why your post is ridiculous.*
> 
> ...


----------



## maverickronin

Quote: 





beeman458 said:


> There's no need to name any tests as they're all flawed or invalid; sighted, unsighted, double-blind, etc.  How can anybody debate flawed testing?  There's no point.


 

 You haven't provided any evidence that those methodologies are invalid.  They seem to work just fine for everything else, so why not audio cables?


----------



## beeman458

*These kinds of tests never indicate anything better than chance guessing.*
   
  Of course they don't.  Why?  The evaluation parameters are designed to make sure that's all they'll ever be.  Ya can't have a rational debate based upon irrational rules.  Based upon the evaluation parameters set out by the test givers, fail is the only option.  Good for them.  I wish them a happy and fulfilled life.
   
  Okay, enough with this sparring.  It's getting fatiguing on the innocents of my poor little brain.
   

   
  Okay, the power cord was a bust but there's still hope with the pending arrival in a week or so, of the custom ordered headphone cables.


----------



## Head Injury

Quote: 





beeman458 said:


> *These kinds of tests never indicate anything better than chance guessing.*
> 
> Of course they don't.  Why?  The evaluation parameters are designed to make sure that's all they'll ever be.  Ya can't have a rational debate based upon irrational rules.  Based upon the evaluation parameters set out by the test givers, fail is the only option.  Good for them.  I wish them a happy and fulfilled life.


 

 What evaluation parameters are those?
   
  We're not psychic, nor do we have our brains hooked up to yours with 99.9999999% pure copper interconnects. You have to tell us these things.


----------



## maverickronin

Quote: 





beeman458 said:


> Of course they don't.  Why?  The evaluation parameters are designed to make sure that's all they'll ever be.  Ya can't have a rational debate based upon irrational rules.  Based upon the evaluation parameters set out by the test givers, fail is the only option.


 

 You keep saying that, but you won't tell us _why_.
   
  Also I'd like to clarify my earlier posts a bit.  When I said that the universe was basiclly digital I was referring to the discrete nature of matter and energy but I left out the position of an object within space-time.  AFIK the jury is still out on whether the Plank Length is the discrete unit by which position can change, but I'm far from an expert on the subject.  I will anxiously await an actual physicist to come give both beeman and myself the smack down.


----------



## beeman458

*You haven't provided any evidence that those methodologies are invalid.  They seem to work just fine for everything else, so why not audio cables?*
   
  And I don't need to as I'm not here to change the world.  As I wrote, the test givers are taking analogue behavior and summing it up using digital parameters, invalid methodology.
   
  Example: if a ball club wins only fifty percent of their games, does that mean they don't exist as a team?  If at four hundred yards, without a scope, you hit a target one out of a hundred times, does that mean you don't know how to use a rifle?  If one can reliably pick out a cable change one out of ten times, does that mean they're not hearing a change?  Mighty arrogant to say they're not as you haven't a wit of proof they're not hearing a change.  The conclusions drawn are totally specious.  Why?  Because they're drawn upon false premises.
   
  If someone wants to buy into this world of doctored up testing results and skewed evaluation rules, more power to them as it's none of my business what they want to believe.  If anybody wants to believe there's nothing to cables, I'm happy for them.  Too bad they can't be happy for those who do enjoy cables.


----------



## Head Injury

Quote: 





beeman458 said:


> Example: if a ball club wins only fifty percent of their games, does that mean they don't exist as a team?  If at four hundred yards, without a scope, you hit a target one out of a hundred times, does that mean you don't know how to use a rifle?  If one can reliably pick out a cable change one out of ten times, does that mean they're not hearing a change?


 

 Woo, analogy fail.
   
  Ball club: No, because wins has nothing to do with physical existence. Can we argue that a team with a 50% loss rate is not a winning team? Yes.
   
  Rifle: That's exactly our point. Hitting a target 1 out of 100 times says nothing about skill. Especially if the chance of hitting the target accidentally when "guessing" is not known. Luckily for us and not so luckily for your terrible analogies, we do know the chance of guessing a cable correctly. And between two cables, it's exactly 50%.
   
  Cable: No. But the key word here is reliably. I wouldn't, by any stretch of the imagination, call 1 out of 10 "reliable". "Reliable" here would be a ratio which minimizes or even eliminates the chance that the listener was guessing. 5% is (as far as I know) the maximum percentage chance of guessing that would be accepted as a pass. Out of 10 trials, I believe it's something like 8 correct. But I'm not doing any math for it. The thing to take from this failed analogy is that "reliable" only applies to those that pass the test. Everything else is unreliable, too likely to be guessing.
   
  Also, what exactly is analogue behavior? Behavior here is either "Yes, I hear it" or "No, I don't", not analogue at all. We don't care _what_ you hear, as long as you hear it and can reliably prove it in a DBT. In fact, the odds are stacked in your favor! There's only one "analogue" value that results in a "No, I don't", and that's zero audible difference. There's millions that can result in a "Yes"!
   
  @ below: I think you'll find the response to post #263 in my Cable section of this here post #262. Maybe I _am_ psychic.


----------



## beeman458

*What evaluation parameters are those?*
   
*We're not psychic, nor do we have our brains hooked up to yours with 99.9999999% pure copper interconnects. You have to tell us these things.*
   
  I have, many times.  The parameters stating what constitutes a successful test.  Parameters which say you need to get a certain percentage right in order to say you're hearing a difference.  I've stated this point several times.  I've also stated what I would consider a valid test.
   
  The premise set forth regarding what's considered a valid result is totally laughable but folks are welcome to believe anything they want.  If one wants to believe the world's flat, I'm happy for them.  I'm not going try to change them.  In the case of cables, it's a power struggle on the part of the anti-cable crowd.
   
  "We are Borg, you will be assimilated."
   
  If someone doesn't want to buy cables, good for them.  Why?  Cause it don't matter what I enjoy as to what they think.  See, no debate.


----------



## beeman458

*Woo, analogy fail.*
   
  And I'm happy you think this way.  You won't get a debate out of me.
   
*Also, what exactly is analogue behavior? Behavior here is either "Yes, I hear it" or "No, I don't", not analogue at all. We don't care what you hear, as long as you hear it and can reliably prove it in a DBT.*
   
  Yes, digital rules for an analogue experience.  You know, sound waves, light waves, issues surrounding sensitivity, noise floors and sensory thresholds.
   
  ???


----------



## maverickronin

Quote: 





beeman458 said:


> I have, many times.  The parameters stating what constitutes a successful test.  Parameters which say you need to get a certain percentage right in order to say you're hearing a difference.  I've stated this point several times.  I've also stated what I would consider a valid test.


 

 Yes, you've said that such statistics are invalid, but you've never said _why _they are invalid.  You gave some kind of pseudo solipsistic, post-modernist rant about "emotion" but never told us why we can't ask for the same sort of 95% confidence interval that is accepted in every other field of study.


----------



## beeman458

*Yes, you've said that such statistics are invalid, but you've never said why they are invalid.*
   
  Please reread what I've written as yes, I have posted why they're invalid.
   
*You gave some kind of pseudo solipsistic, post-modernist rant about "emotion" but never told us why we can't ask for the same sort of 95% confidence interval that is accepted in every other field of study.*
   
  Wow!  Solipsistic and Post-modern.  Never wrote either but hey, gotta admit, it sure sounded cool.  And yes I have responded to the invalidity of demanding a confidence interval that's accepted in every other field of study.
   
  You'll find I'll present my position on this matter but in the same token, find no reason to defend or debate my position.  If someone doesn't want to buy cables, for any reason, I'm happy for them; no effort to control.


----------



## maverickronin

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *beeman458* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Wow!  Solipsistic and Post-modern.  Never wrote either but hey, gotta admit, it sure sounded cool.  And yes I have responded to the invalidity of demanding a confidence interval that's accepted in every other field of study.


 

 Well you seem to saying that subjective experience is more important than objective measurement and observation, and that's wading in to that territory.
   
  What exactly are you saying then?
   
  Are you saying that a cable that makes a difference so small it can only be heard 10% of the time is worth buying?  Even if you think it is, such a cable does not appear to exist.  With a large sample size you can crunch the numbers to see if such a cable really was different 10% of the time, but they don't even find that.  If a cable was making a difference 10% of the time, that's what the studies would come up with because choosing that cable would still be better than chance.  It would be a small bias towards that cable, but it would still be there.  A 95% confidence interval doesn't mean getting it right 95% percent of the time, it means that the statistics tell us with our sample size, it's 95% percent certain that our results are not the result of chance.
   
  If 100 people each took 10 trials of 2 cables and they mostly chose cable A 10% more often than cable B then there would actually be some decent evidence.  It never happens that way though.  The results are random.  There is no bias, not even a small one.


----------



## Lenni

Quote:


uncle erik said:


> You're making the assumption that an audible "difference" is a result of a physical difference in cables.


 
   
[size=11.0pt]yes. absolutely.[/size]

  Quote: 





> If you want to be scientific about this, there are two fundamental questions:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  I tested cables made of different conductors and they made audible differences to me.
   
  Quote: 





> Whenever you try to answer number two, you repeatedly get results that show human bias.


 
   
  it's possible that in some cases one or all of those biases could play some influence on the final test. but I don't accept that is the same for everybody. certainly not in my case. I'm interested in the sound, NOT the cables. I'm not sure how to explain it. I don't care if the cables retail for $5 or $500, or what special alloy is made of.  of course I marvel at the built quality of some, but that's about it. do I get excited, hopeful  for a new cable? yes. do I have expectations? not really. I have two pairs of interconnects, one has supposedly gold plated wire, and one has silver (or a special alloy mixture of both - I'm not even sure). the gold ones retail for almost twice the silver's. after testing both for few days I settled for the silver's. does it mean anything?
   
  Quote: 





> Here's something to think about: even if a difference is eventually demonstrated scientifically, it must be incredibly small.  Almost insignificantly small.  Why?  Because careful testing of cables and humans has missed it so far.  If it was an obvious phenomenon, then people would pass blind tests without much trouble and endless handwringing over minute protocol differences.  Similarly, if the effect was easily found, it would show up as anomalies in tested results.  You'd get slightly off readings and ones that didn't fit with Ohm's law.  There might be a mysterious element, but still, it would affect known parameters.


 
   
  sorry I'm not scientist, I haven't hung out with my science Ohmies in awhile. But people can't tell differences between amps / CDP's, and even speakers in some of them tests. that tells me that all these BT's are utterly useless; unless you think all amps / CDP's sounds the same too.


----------



## Sovkiller

We have a dedicated forum to discuss freely about the science behind audio, some audiophiles feel the urge of spending money in things even while there is absolutely no science and logic behind the claims, and what is even worst they make up their minds so bad to those ideals, that they ended claiming to hear those things as well...There are some nice article about that topic, BJC has one posted, Straightwire has another, and I recall one made by an speaker company in which on the DBT audiophiles wrote about the differences in cables, and at the end they were all the time listening ta zip wire, and so on...
  My suggestion is that you have hear for yourself and if you noticed a difference, even if it is due to placebo effect, to you, that is all that matters, placebo effect is real and exists, and makes a noticeable number in the investigations results of any kind...Also the human race have embrace some faiths, Voodoo, etc...that have no scientific explanation neither for centuries...so what do we know...
  Same applies to biwiring, direccional interconnects, speaker wires, etc...


----------



## beeman458

*Well you seem to saying that subjective experience is more important than objective measurement and observation, and that's wading in to that territory.*
   
  Nope.  Nowhere in my writings have I stated such.  You're inferring the above due to your personal bias'. You'll find, if you reread my comments, I only write of people's happiness and the intentionally flawed nature, for stated reasons, of the evaluation methodologies and how the test givers intentionally set the test respondents up for fail, before the tests take place.  If one wanted to be pointed, then one could be pointed by telling test takers they're being played for fools and their ego's are getting in the way of their BS detectors.
   
  I'm not here to debate the issue.  If you, or anybody wants to believe there's no difference in cables, I'm happy for you.  If you or others don't want to spend your monies on cables, I'm happy for you.  If you or others want to believe the evaluation methodologies of the test results are based upon sound scientific principal, I'm happy for you.  See, no debate, no Solipsisticism as it's not about me for the flaw continues to persist, with or without my presents in the Universe.  And I can see you don't understand the basis of Post-modernism because I have no ax to grind with Modernism.


----------



## haloxt

Thanks for your insights, beeman458. I don't think I've ever seen a better definition of what science is and what science isn't.


----------



## El_Doug

Beeman, you are the biggest troll I have ever come across - and I used to administrate a 50,000 member video game forum with an average user age of 18! 
   
   
  Ronin has shown amazing patience and respect, despite your baseless and, quite frankly, stupid statements.  All of your posts show a complete lack of understanding of even the most basic of statistics, which is in and of itself fine... but then you go so far as to claim that anyone who follows accepted (and proven) mathematics is just a "borg drone."  What!?  back up your statements, man!  you have been asked several times to substantiate your claims, and all you have done is write "i already did."  NO YOU DIDNT!  all you have done is spew the same "the world is analog, and the tests are digital" phrase over and over.  never have you 1) explained what you mean, or 2) detailed the implications of your statement.  your lack of understanding of 1=success 0=failure is mind-boggling.  are you even qualified to attempt to debase the same math that landed us on the moon?  if so, i'd love to see your cv. 
   
  please link us to ONE SINGLE audio test which was, by design, intended to be automatically failed.  hint: there isn't one. 
   
   
  gimme a break, Mr. "I'm not here to debate."  all you have done is repeatedly bait an argument, in which you constantly utilize strawman tactics, and worse, avoid directly answering any questions fielded in your direction.  if you dont want to debate, and "dont need to defend yourself," then why is every single one of your posts here defensive? 
   
   
   
  I apologize for the outburst, but after reading the last two pages, I have literally felt my blood pressure rise.  i am not joking.


----------



## aimlink

I personally have an interest in cables and I am now becoming concerned about the waning possibility of having a peaceful discussion about my experiences with cables and those who may also be similarly interested.  It concerningly, and way too quickly, becomes overrun by these fierce exchanges.  I'm relatively new to these forums, but has it always been this way?  If so, then I guess I have nothing to worry about.


----------



## aimlink

Quote: 





el_doug said:


> I apologize for the outburst, but after reading the last two pages, I have literally felt my blood pressure rise.  i am not joking.


 

 .


----------



## beeman458

*I'm relatively new to these forums, but has it always been this way?*
   
  Yes it has.  This need by the anti-cable guys to control others has been going on for decades.  Cable guys aren't allowed to have their world as anytime cable guys try to hold a conversation amongst themselves, you can bet there's going be an anti-cable guy trying to control the room with their insults and use the results of their flawed tests as their reason to rain on the room's parade.
   
  Note the venom when I refused to get pulled into a debate and I refuse to defend my position.  If one doesn't want to believe me, I'm happy for them.  If one wants to believe their science is true and accurate, I'm happy for them.  One problem, it's not their money being spent on these cables.  So why should they care what one spends their money on?
   
  It's your money, spend it anyway you want.  It's your hobby.  Enjoy it and ignore those who want to take your fun away.
   
  Currently I'am eagerly awaiting the arrival of some custom headphone cables from Double Helix Cables.  Can you imagine the vitriol that will occur should I come here and write that I love the cables and think it was money well spent?  What the anti-cable guys don't get, it's my money, my life, my enjoyment and it's not theirs to try and destroy.  The funny thing, it ticks them off because I'll neither debate them or let them rain on my parade.


----------



## Head Injury

You joined this month. How would you know if it's always been like this?
   
  I'm just going to say that your reasoning is flawed. I'm not actually going to explain why. I'm sure you won't mind.


----------



## beeman458

*You joined this month. How would you know if it's always been like this?*
   
  I've been using and enjoying the benefits of cables for a couple of decades.  This type of vitriolic debate was going on back in the 90's.  What's happening on this forum is no different than what was happening fifteen or twenty years ago in other venues; anti-cable guys beating up on cable guys; the need to control others.  So, since the story's the same one, there's no point in debating the issue.
   
  An old man went to a lake to fish, a lake that had no fish in it.  The locals would talk about how foolish he was and then a wise man came to town and said: "Leave the old man alone.  Talk about yourselves if you must talk.  It makes him happy, so why should you care?"
   
  The anti-cable guys need to get a grip and back off a few notches.  Sure would be nice to hold a civil conversation with cable guys and not have to worry about any anti-cable guys jumping in, kicking up dust and in essence, telling cable guys that we're all delusional and how they have the proof so we need to follow their dogma.  I'm happy for them, they have the proof, we're delusional.  I got it.  Now, go away, leave us alone.  And if they won't leave us alone, then they're the trouble makers as they're the ones coming here to cause trouble.  Maybe the mods can create an anti-cable free forum where anti-cable guys are banned from discussing the results of "their" tests or saying anything against cables and cable users so cable guys can enjoy their hobby in peace.  You know, like a "(DBT-Free Forum)"
   
*I'm just going to say that your reasoning is flawed.*
   
  It's not, but you're welcome to believe anything you like.


----------



## Prog Rock Man

Quote: 





dookky said:


> *Seriously though, why would you ever consider replacing your power cord with and aftermarket power cord. *I can understand wanting to make one yourself, there's an enjoyment factor there, but buying an incredibly expensive power cord with silver contacts and diamond studded earrings just sounds CRAZY to me. From my understanding, there is no way your power is going to be any "cleaner" by having one of these cables. If you're power is dirty coming from your socket (which is highly likely) then a cable is worthless, invest in a AC/DC converter. Even if your fifty feet away from your socket that can't compare to the hundreds of feet of solid core copper in your walls, not to mention the cables going to your closest transformer. Am I missing something here?


 

 This is a thread designed to spark a debate between pro and anti cable people. So we should be able to read both sides without one telling the other to go away.


----------



## beeman458

Sorry for any confusion as "here" was ment to refer to the "forum," not the thread.
   
  My bad.


----------



## Sovkiller

So that means that becasue that old guy wasted his time fishing on the lake, and went home with empty hands, just with the illustion of being there fishing, and thinking that maybe becasue of his bad luck he didn't catch a thing there (even while all the rest of the world knew that he will be wasting his time) we all have to accept that as the right thing to do, and the logic thing to do, just becasue that makes him happy???
   
  OMG, I think that I have heard enough, to me the logic went out of the window now!!!!


----------



## beeman458

*So that means that becasue that old guy wasted his time fishing on the lake,....*
   
  The old man wasn't wasting his time.
   
*...just becasue that makes him happy???*
   
  What, you got something against an old man being happy?


----------



## Sovkiller

How do you call to go for fishing to a a place that there is no fish, knowing that there is no fish, and ended with empty hands, an enjoyment???
   
  No, I have something against a fool pretending to ignore reality...old or young...it doens't matter...


----------



## beeman458

*How do you call to go for fishing to a a place that there is no fish, knowing that there is no fish, and ended with empty hands, an enjoyment???*
   
  If it makes the old man happy, it don't matter what anybody thinks.
   
*No, I have something against a fool pretending to ignore reality...old or young...it doens't matter...*
   
  I got it.  You don't want the old man to be happy.  Is it the same with those who like cables?  Do you feel a need to take away the fun of those who like to buy expensive cables?
   
  ???


----------



## aimlink

Quote: 





sovkiller said:


> How do you call to go for fishing to a a place that there is no fish, knowing that there is no fish, and ended with empty hands, an enjoyment???
> 
> No, I have something against a fool pretending to ignore reality...old or young...it doens't matter...


 

 But Sovkiller, with this here comparison of yours, you're not making yourself out to be very sensible yourself about it.  So you're not doing your position any credibility.  To the fool, the wise will appear like a fool.  It's all relative.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  ... just some dirt back at you to see what it looks like on the receiving end...


----------



## tmars78

I agree that the analogy of the old man fishing doesn't work. If I go fishing, and the joy comes from the act of fishing, and not actually catching a fish, where is the harm?


----------



## Sovkiller

Well if that is the case and you think so, and you are happy thinking so, so be it...ignoring reality will not make you wiser...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  aimlink, I do not need credibility, nor I need to be sensible about an absurd...what I say is just my opinion based in my experience, good or bad...I'm not asking anybody to believe me, in my first post I encourage others to try and listen, that is the only way of making your mind...period...and trust me that I did it in the past, and arrived to that same conclusions I have know, and I follow now... 
   
  I think that I have heard a little bit in my short life, to know what will make a noticeable difference in a setup, and what will not. Cables are borderline, if any, on the side of the no differences in my book...If you want a better sound, I will encourage you to get a better transducer, a better source, or a better amplifier. Spending what you will on better cables on that (or just simply a better recording, made by Hoffman, a SACD, or a MoFi one) will give you far better results, the cables will not make a difference, if any, as to make you like, what you did not before...and I'm being pretty conservative with this statement...
  Sorry guys but power cables, is such a big absurd to me, (and to many other guys that have heard a few many times what I have, and some others that even make a living making cables professionally for many customers, as the case of BJC's...on this case if you look with objective eyes, making power cords will make another source of income for them, but why bother, if they personally do not believe in them, that is honesty in my book...) so why wasting my time on ignoring that reality...that is one of my big personal beefs in audio...
   
  BTW I do have tried a few, and on top that to me was not sane, to even try what I was convinced that will make no difference, they didn't make any difference to me in reality as to make me change my mind...and not only in theory...So I ended my case...
   
   
  (...ops a typo...)


----------



## tmars78

Quote: 





sovkiller said:


> Well if that is the case and you think so, and you are happy thinking so, so be it...ignoring reality will not make you wiser...


 
   
  Maybe it won't make me(or the old man) wiser, but as long as no one gets hurt, I don't see the problem. I understand wanting people to be informed and make logical choices, not get duped out of hard earned money, but in the end, if it makes them happy, who are we to argue? I wouldn't spend an absorbent amount of money on cables, not only do I not have the gear they say you need for them, I don't believe they make an _audible _difference.


----------



## Trogdor

Here is the bottom line, if you like buying expensive cables and can hear a difference, more power to you.
   
  For the rest of us, until a cable lover can quantify what makes one cable sound better than another AND IDENTIFY the sonic signature reliably through DBT, I think a HeadFi'ers money is better spent elsewhere.
   
  PS All these years and Sovkiller is still fighting the good fight!


----------



## haloxt

These people can't understand you, beeman. Consider ending this debate because if it continues a moderaator will likely delete it all. I think you've already said your piece and defended it properly, let people judge for themselves.


----------



## beeman458

Thanks!


----------



## mustardhamsters

Expensive digital cables are worse.


----------



## aimlink

Quote: 





sovkiller said:


> Well if that is the case and you think so, and you are happy thinking so, so be it...ignoring reality will not make you wiser...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 That quoted block sounds scarily like beeman in sentiment and I agree with it too.  It's just that some have done exactly what you did and came away with different findings.  I've spent a lot on music and other gear and can assure you that, like cables, it's a hit and miss whether or not you'll end up feeling that you just got your money's worth.


----------



## BIG POPPA

In this forum there are more people new to this hobby than not. So yeah a lot of head-fiers do not get the purpose of a good power cable and how to maximize the benefit of it. Yeah a whole lot of people will ask for proof this way and that way. In the real world of retail you buy it or do not. What is so hard about that? Really? It just seems some just want to be experts just by what they find on the internet and not doing the homework, demoing, or by DIYing?


----------



## Head Injury

Quote: 





big poppa said:


> In this forum there are more people new to this hobby than not. So yeah a lot of head-fiers do not get the purpose of a good power cable and how to maximize the benefit of it. Yeah a whole lot of people will ask for proof this way and that way. *In the real world of retail you buy it or do not.* What is so hard about that? Really? It just seems some just want to be experts just by what they find on the internet and not doing the homework, demoing, or by DIYing?


 

 Ugh, don't talk so _digital!_


----------



## aimlink

Quote: 





big poppa said:


> In this forum there are more people new to this hobby than not. So yeah a lot of head-fiers do not get the purpose of a good power cable and how to maximize the benefit of it. Yeah a whole lot of people will ask for proof this way and that way. In the real world of retail you buy it or do not. What is so hard about that? Really? It just seems some just want to be experts just by what they find on the internet and not doing the homework, demoing, or by DIYing?


 
   
  Indeed.  While I can understand the reluctance of those who wish to spend their hard earned money on cables or any gear which is of questionable benefit based on current evidence,  I do not understand the heavy pontificating, condescension and implied name-calling of an anti-cable position without any solid personal experience to go with it.
   
  Current evidence would suggest a questionable benefit with a lot of gear being promoted here.


----------



## Uncle Erik

Big Poppa, the problem with buying to test is that the buyer gets fleeced in the process.  Used cables go around 50% of retail, so there's a huge downside to buying a cable to try it out.


----------



## BIG POPPA

Most reputable audio stores will let you demo cables. I know some internet retailers that have demo cables. You can demo cables at Head-Fi meets like the http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/495219/seattle-area-meet-red-hook-meet . Yeah I did organize another one. Yes I do have a few laying around.  For trying out different power cables I can point in the right direction. For CONUS it is easy to demo cables.


----------



## Sovkiller

Guys for a person to try to be happy, is one perfectly normal and logical thing, and I do encourage you do go so, and try to find what will make you happy in life in general...
   
  But as an old fellow here, and as Trogdor stated, I'm still fighting this battle, simply I do believe is one that needs to be fought, but I do it in part, as I think that is in part an obligation that I have with this community.
  Having said that I will just make a healthy advise for the new fellows, and I do not think that will be objectionable, nor questionable, by any reasonable person, just to ask you to be wise while spending your hard earn money, and try to get whatever you are looking for, but from reputable dealers, and ones that have strong returning policies, and those who stand behind their products, if you can find them...Specially on expensive cables and power cables, just find the dealers that let you return them in case you are not satisfied...
  Now be advised, that many of them fail to state clearly also the "burning in" period, (another absurd in my book) and in the best cases you can find any number, you may be required sometimes thousands of hours to complete it, that is maybe a few months of use, and as logic indicates, after that period the returning period will not be longer valid if there was any to begin with...
   
  In this hobby, as in many others, there is a lot of voodoo, snake oil, mythology, and people making a living out of nothing else than the credibility of a few decent persons, most of the times they use some smart guys that had taken the task of immortalizing them too seriously (God knows what else is indeed behind those intentions!!!)...Just to mention one that I recall, I was asked once by a very reputable audiophile authority (that I will not divulge the identity) to serve as a mediator, between that person and a headphone company that I knew a few fellows in the US distributing crew, with the purpose of getting a very expensive model, and offer in exchange an endorsement during a professional work (just with the final intention to keep it at the end of it) As a side note, I was told by that same person, that is a common practice in the audio industry, that professionals get gear in exchange for endorsements, and that this same way, this person, had gotten a few others, some hi-end Senns included. And all was asked even without the item in question being heard, not knowing if it will be to the preference or not of that person. Of course I refused, inventing a few excuses myself, but I did passed the message along, and the other end decided, at that time, to send a more modest model as a courtesy for the interest, free of any charge...As a curious detail we never heard from that person again...No endorsement, not even a confirmation of having received it or not, and not even a thanks...and of course, no headphone back...
   
  In other words, please guys while you read something, always take that as a grain of salt...your ears will be the best judge for any of your decisions...
   
  Also we have seen dissected cables here, we ran a DBT with three different audio cables, and the test showed that only a few percentage could identify the cables (of course that test had limitations, and of course and we can argue about them all night...) But to me it doesn't matter which cable was supposed to sound like this or that, in some other DBT's we have seen also that even during the initial setup adjustments, people had failed to properly identify the same cable twice...LOL...and in one done, if I'm not mistaken, a few years back, they even wrote about differences after being always hearing the same zip cable in some speakers...We have also the Wireworld CD, that supposedly "recorded" the differences between a few well known brands of cables and their own cables. I leave the result to your imagination, but it never make me change my mind...The CD for some reason is no longer available from the manufacturer, is now long time out of print, but I still have a copy...


----------



## Trogdor

Quote: 





sovkiller said:


> Guys for a person to try to be happy, is one perfectly normal and logical thing, and I do encourage you do go so, and try to find what will make you happy in life in general...
> 
> But as an old fellow here, and as Trogdor stated, I'm still fighting this battle, simply I do believe is one that needs to be fought, but I do it in part, as I think that is in part an obligation that I have with this community, and in part my obligation.
> Having said that I will just make a healthy advise for the new fellows, and I do not think that will be objectionable, nor questionable, by any reasonable person, just to ask you to be wise while spending your hard earn money, and try to get whatever you are looking for, but from reputable dealers, and ones that have strong returning policies, and those who stand behind their products, if you can find them...Specially on expensive cables and power cables, just find the dealers that let you return them in case you are not satisfied...
> ...


 


 Sovkiller, awesome post!  It should be a sticky in the cable forum.
   
  I used to be religious about the subject.  I mean I am in the camp that if you go down to your local Radio Shack, you can find perfectly good cables (it hurts when you say  and Radio Shack in the same sentence, I know).
   
  If folks are absolute sure they can tell the difference between one cable and the next, again, more power to you.
   
  HOWEVER, for any n00b or person getting started I always ask them to PLEASE DBT your equipment.  Heed Sovkiller's words.  Do what EVERY OTHER INDUSTRY does with respect to gauging  performance, test it.  Verify the claims made by the manufacture can be verified by your ears on your system - don't listen to me, don't listen to Sovkiller, don't read this thread as gospel or make metaphysical justifications for your purchase, listen to your ears and be the judge!


----------



## JamesL

Quote: 





beeman458 said:


> *I'm relatively new to these forums, but has it always been this way?*
> 
> Yes it has.  This need by the anti-cable guys to control others has been going on for decades.  Cable guys aren't allowed to have their world as anytime cable guys try to hold a conversation amongst themselves, you can bet there's going be an anti-cable guy trying to control the room with their insults and use the results of their flawed tests as their reason to rain on the room's parade.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Beeman.. take a closer look.
   
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/500815/review-of-k-works-products
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/427613/review-cardas-twinlink-power-cord-on-dna-sonett
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/499138/interconnect-cables
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/499629/what-do-you-guys-think-about-this-ipod-line-out-cable
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/499789/rca-signal-cable-w-m-audio-ac-01
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/62167/zu-mobius-in-the-house
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/469313/review-of-the-oyaide-db-510-an-analog-sounding-digital-cable/30 (long'ish thread, I only skimmed the first few and last few pages)
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/471870/whiplash-twag-vs-crystal-piccolino
   
   
   
  I just listed every, cable-discussion thread I could find in the past 5 pages of this forum.
   
  There is NOT ONE PERSON(nonbeliever) who interrupted any of these threads to try and _convert_ anyone.
Not a single one
   
  There may be a small handful out there who may feel the urge to intrude, but that doesn't represent the majority of us.
   
  We let all of you cable believers spend your money how you want, talk about the different cables as you want, and believe what you want.  Heck, the mods here even went as far as administering a dbt-free rule on these boards.
   
  Only when a newbie or someone comes to these threads asking if cables make a difference do we put in our opinion.
  If someone asks if its worth paying for expensive cables, then we have the right to say no.
  If someone asks how a cable makes a difference, we have the right to say it doesn't.
   
   
   
  We are NOT forcing anybody to conformity.  
  Just making sure that people make an informed decision


----------



## BIG POPPA

At least I do organize meets and give the opportunity to audition cables. Never seen a non-cable believer organize a meet to prove cables do not make a difference?


----------



## Head Injury

You think such a meet would be popular? The only people who would show up are nonbelievers.
   
  Besides, as evident already, no matter how many blind tests are performed adamant believers like you would never accept them as proof. It's easier for us and more effective as a whole to demand evidence supporting differences from you, because you never have anything objective.


----------



## BIG POPPA

Just don't talk about it? DO SOMETHING TO PROVE YOUR POINT.............. DUHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH


----------



## Head Injury

Right back at ya.
   
  There's plenty of blind tests that already prove our (my) point. But of course, like I just said, you don't believe them. I've seen nothing but subjectivity from you.


----------



## tmars78

Quote: 





head injury said:


> Right back at ya.
> 
> There's plenty of blind tests that already prove our (my) point. But of course, like I just said, you don't believe them. I've seen nothing but subjectivity from you.


 

 Yeah, I believe the burden of proof lies with the person who claims to hear a difference, and not vice-versa.


----------



## beeman458

*Beeman.. take a closer look.*
   
  And please, take a closer look at what I wrote, keeping my comment in context to the question asked.
   
*"I'm relatively new to these forums, but has it always been this way?"*
   
  "Yes it has.  This need by the anti-cable guys to control others has been going on for decades."
   
  And it has been going on for decades.  I stated my piece and it's now time to simply read posts and listen to the sweet dulcet jazz tones emanating from the headphones as I contemplate the arrival of the newly ordered custom headphone cables in a week or so.


----------



## BIG POPPA

Where are YOUR blind tests? I've organized a meet next Saturday. Will bring several cables to try out. Usually organize a meet every 3 months or so since 2008. How many meets have you been to again? I am a Doer. How would you describe yourself?


----------



## beeman458

BIG POPPA, good for you for your efforts.
   
  (Need some sort of clapping hands emoticon here)


----------



## Head Injury

Quote: 





big poppa said:


> Where are YOUR blind tests? I've organized a meet next Saturday. Will bring several cables to try out. Usually organize a meet every 3 months or so since 2008. How many meets have you been to again? I am a Doer. How would you describe yourself?


 

 I don't need to do blind tests, not on myself. I don't believe. So you'll just confront my results with things like "lead ears", "cheap equipment", "biased", etc. The people who believe are the ones that need to do the blind tests the most, as they not only are the ones who proclaim that there are audible differences, but they have reason to put forth effort in passing the test.
   
  I never asked about your meets. They're not relevant AT ALL to the discussion. I'm asking for proof, not believer activism.


----------



## Sovkiller

If I'm not mistaken is a lot harder to prove a negative...I do not think is that easy either to establish the evidence of an absence. What I do have seen is the absence of the evidence, as the opposite has never been defined neither, otherwise what is proven is not arguable...Earth is round, try to prove is flat now...
   
  As a side note, what I do have seen here in all these years, is a tendency on the believers in trying to control the headfiers minds, the non believers were even segregated to a different part of the forum, to keep the things the way they want them to be...


----------



## beeman458

*the non beleivers were even segregated to a different part fo the forum, to keep the things the way they want them to be...*
   
  And yet, here you are.
   
  (need a whistling emoticon here)


----------



## Head Injury

Quote: 





beeman458 said:


> *the non beleivers were even segregated to a different part fo the forum, to keep the things the way they want them to be...*
> 
> And yet, here you are.
> 
> (need a whistling emoticon here)


 

 So you support segregation? That's not very open-minded of you.


----------



## beeman458

*So you support segregation? That's not very open-minded of you.*
   
  I just can't catch a break.
   
  (lol)


----------



## Sovkiller

Beeman, I'm never say that I'm not a non believer of cables. I'm a believer in common sense, and cables will never be a priority number one for me, as the differences they may introduce, if any, are small enough to put them in that place...
   
  I'm still, even against my common sense, open minded enough to let anybody prove me wrong, but till the date noobdy had, and it is more, there is million buckaros waiting for a few audiophiles to prove Randy wrong...but hey what do I know?
  Myself, I use BJC's, that are not stock cables, they are very well done, and offer a good quality for the money, if you get me tomorrow silver cables for that same price, and same manufacture quality, hey I will get them in a heartbeat!!! 
   
  I do not believe in power cords...that is for sure...


----------



## maverickronin

Quote: 





jamesl said:


> I just listed every, cable-discussion thread I could find in the past 5 pages of this forum.
> 
> There is NOT ONE PERSON(nonbeliever) who interrupted any of these threads to try and _convert_ anyone.
> Not a single one
> ...


 





   
  We're not here to rain on someones parade if they already enjoy their cables _but_ if someone asks us we are perfectly free express our opinions, present our arguments, and ask the other side to do the same.


----------



## JamesL

Quote: 





beeman458 said:


> *Beeman.. take a closer look.*
> 
> And please, take a closer look at what I wrote, keeping my comment in context to the question asked.
> 
> ...


 

 Yes, I did read your post, and I did respond to what you said, in the context of what you responded to.
   
  The "need by the anti-cable guys to control others" is what you're dellusioned into thinking after having read so many cable-arguments, when in fact there is no converting or controlling of anybody who enjoys 'audiophile cables'.
   
  Yes, the cable 'debate' has gone on for decades, and they start when someone asks if they make a difference, and both parties want to put in their opinion.
   
  But... no one is going into your cable discussions and trying to control, convert, criticize, argue against, harass, or doing whatever you're accusing us of doing.
  Enjoy what you want to enjoy, but don't tell lies about how we're trying to control everybody.


----------



## beeman458

*I do not believe in power cords...that is for sure...*
   
  Well, I sure don't believe in the power cord I purchased.  And common sense says that I can't afford to keep trying.
   
  (need a head shaking no emoticon here)
   
  I only got's so much money to throw at this project and that's it.  So far I'm batting three out of four.  One more pitch coming in the form of headphone cables.
   
  1. ASUS Xonar Essence STX sound card.
   
  2. Sennheiser HD-650 headphones
   
  3. Replaced computer power supply unit
   
  4. Computer power supply unit power cord (fail)


----------



## Sovkiller

Time to play in Shufuni for a while now...


----------



## beeman458

*Enjoy what you want to enjoy, but don't tell lies about how we're trying to control everybody.*
   
  Heck, you're trying to control me right now.  Who are you kidding?
   
  (Need a head shaking up and down emoticon here)
   
  Here, have a beer.


----------



## JamesL

Quote: 





beeman458 said:


> *Enjoy what you want to enjoy, but don't tell lies about how we're trying to control everybody.*
> 
> Heck, you're trying to control me right now.  Who are you kidding?
> 
> (Need a head shaking up and down emoticon here)


 

  
  How am I controlling you(or trying to)?
  You criticized us and said that cable believers try to control everybody and won't let people enjoy cables.
  I said that was wrong.
   
  What if I said cable believers are delusional and try to spread their cable-fanaticism at each chance they get? 
  I'm not saying that, but if I did.. would you just watch and say nothing?


----------



## beeman458

*I said that was wrong.*
   
  No, that's not what you wrote.
   
*What if I said cable believers are delusional and try to spread their cable-fanaticism at each chance they get? *
*I'm not saying that, but if I did.. would you just watch and say nothing?*
   
  I'd pretty much expect that from an anti-cable guy.  FWIW, I'm not a reactionary.
   
  False results based upon false assumptions.  Those kinda folks can say what ever they want and what they have to say, has no meaning.  So there's no point in getting upset at what they have to say.
   
  Me?  Time to shut-down, have a couple of evening cocktails and off to bed as you load sixteen tons, and what do you get?


----------



## maverickronin

Trying to control you?  We're not even trying to convince you.  You really need to stop with the ad hominem attacks.  We're doing no such thing.  What are we doing?
   
  We're making an example out of you to warn the n00bs.
   
  We're promoting rational thought and evidence based reasoning.
   
  We don't care what _you _do, because we are making our point to the audience.  It doesn't matter much whether you are convinced by our arguments, because we are not trying to convince you.
   
  That's what we're doing.


----------



## aimlink

Quote: 





jamesl said:


> How am I controlling you(or trying to)?
> You criticized us and said that cable believers try to control everybody and won't let people enjoy cables.
> I said that was wrong.
> 
> ...


 

 The truth as usual is not so plain and simple.  Posts like Sovkiller's last 3 or so would never create the skirmishes that occur since respect is maintained throughout his posts.  All that is required is the maintenance of respect for each other's opinions and impressions.  However, egos here will simply not allow this.  Implying that cable rollers are deluded and foolish is derogatory and imposing.


----------



## aimlink

Quote: 





sovkiller said:


> I do not believe in power cords...that is for sure...


 
   
  I'm so skeptic about power cords myself that I'm yet to give one a try and doubt that I will too unless I get to try it for free.


----------



## beeman458

*Trying to control you?  We're not even trying to convince you.  You really need to stop with the ad hominem attacks.  We're doing no such thing.  What are we doing?*
   
  Aaaaah, your above is an effort at controlling as you tell me how to comport myself to your satisfaction.
   
  Have a beer.  It's the end of the day where I'm at.


----------



## BIG POPPA

Point being with my opinion, I do provide an opportunity to hear my point of view. With opposing views where are your demonstrations? "Well this thread did this, This thread did that". Where are your views by experience? There are a few out there and there are circumstances where cables do not benefit as they could. But by a hypothesis, it is lame.


----------



## Sovkiller

Well seeing what you have involved, I will suggest to try this, headphone is fine for sure, even while I do not like the HD650, but for sure is far better than the rest of the setup, power supply in computers tend to be noisy, try getting a quiet one, and my humble opinion, try to avoid computer as sources...you will be better served with other solutions...I know that this is a very good soundcard, but unless dedicated computers with dedicated audio power supplies, they are not designed for sure for audio...maybe an external DLNA server with a better DAC will do the trick...I'm very tempted to one of those...

  
  Quote: 





beeman458 said:


> *I do not believe in power cords...that is for sure...*
> 
> Well, I sure don't believe in the power cord I purchased.  And common sense says that I can't afford to keep trying.
> 
> ...


----------



## Head Injury

Quote: 





big poppa said:


> Point being with my opinion, I do provide an opportunity to hear my point of view. With opposing views where are your demonstrations? "Well this thread did this, This thread did that". Where are your views by experience? There are a few out there and there are circumstances where cables do not benefit as they could. But by a hypothesis, it is lame.


 

 I don't want opportunity to "hear" your point of view. I want objective evidence that supports your point of view.
   
  In science, experience takes a back seat to evidence. It doesn't matter if I've done my own DBT studies. I don't need to drown myself to know that a lack of oxygen can kill, as "studies" have been done before and I can read all about them.


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote: 





aimlink said:


> Posts like Sovkiller's last 3 or so would never create the skirmishes that occur since respect is maintained throughout his posts.  All that is required is the maintenance of respect for each other's opinions and impressions.


 

 Trust me on that, I was not always that patient, the old fellows know me very well for my abrupt answers, of course time and maturity chimes in...and even while my answers tended to be not as polite, I'm an easy going fellow...


----------



## Sovkiller

Poppa, take a beer on me, I do not think that you will offer any input that will make this fellows change their mind...why bother?...Why not instead try to put together a long waited and never finished review for me, please!!!!!....LOL...One day we will have a couple of beers and trust me that you will miss me from that day on, not becasue of the personality, just you will not forget the german beers...


----------



## BIG POPPA

This is a hobby not a science project for me. I can say " I will probably have more fun than most of those who make it a science project". Come on be real about it for a moment? Try gear out like "power cables"? If you don't like them return them? " I need to do this test or that test" is really cumbersome to upgrade your rig. And a big pain in the rear. If you are really not comfortable spending the cash with out these tests, this hobby may not what you are looking for? This hobby takes a little homework, any hobby does? All your questions answers just don't fall on your lap. With power cables it is not that hard.


----------



## BIG POPPA

It is all good Sovkiller, it is OK if I get a little flack. Water off a ducks back. Ask Sergio! German beer is good. I know I have made my own beer. Respect the good stuff. I know when I see pictures from the meets I have organized of people smiling or reading that head-fiers had a good time all the B.S. is washed down the drain.


----------



## Sovkiller

Poppa homework is one thing, and what those guys ask for their cables, is another very different...you know that...see this...first is the answer from the VD CEO, what he has to say about some inquiries in markup of their cables...not sure what is the real market price now, second the thread we all know as what is indeed inside those cables, a real shame the pictures were all removed now...if I have to build a monument, will be for that cat..!!!..
http://www.audiojunkies.com/blog/1248/virtual-dynamics-response
   
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/293165/my-cat-tore-up-my-virtual-dynamics-power-3
   
  Send my best reagards to the dumb of Sergio..BTW is he still in the klipsch horns??? i ahve not heard from him in centuries!!!! I miss him and the good old Phill....


----------



## Sovkiller

Power cables??? Well...here is a very good site with very good prices on them, and very good customer service and reputation, other thna that I will pass...here is where I get mines lately...Pro Cables....you can beat those prices for hospital grade shielded power cables...
   
  BTW those guys has other very good offers as well...


----------



## beeman458

Does Head-Fi have a recording forum?  I didn't see a heading for one.  I see the need to get high quality recordings and see doing so as having an easily "verifiable" sonic benefit.


----------



## Prog Rock Man

Quote: 





beeman458 said:


> *Enjoy what you want to enjoy, but don't tell lies about how we're trying to control everybody.*
> 
> Heck, you're trying to control me right now.  Who are you kidding?
> 
> ...


 

 Beeman, JamesL provided links to various cable threads which have not been 'controlled' by anti-cablers as evidence that your claims are not true. That is not controlling you, unless by controlling you mean disagreeing. Anti-cablers, indeed anyone but a moderator cannot control you or anyone else on this forum. Once you are past the initial moderation of new posts, all posters have equal posting rights here. If anything anti-cablers are more controlled as BDT is banned from various parts of the forum. Pro-cable debate and advice is not banned from any part of the forum.
   
  I am sorry Beeman, but not only do I disagree with some of your points, there is evidence to show that those points are just plain wrong.


----------



## aimlink

Quote: 





prog rock man said:


> Beeman, JamesL provided links to various cable threads which have not been 'controlled' by anti-cablers as evidence that your claims are not true. That is not controlling you, unless by controlling you mean disagreeing. Anti-cablers, indeed anyone but a moderator cannot control you or anyone else on this forum. Once you are past the initial moderation of new posts, all posters have equal posting rights here. If anything anti-cablers are more controlled as BDT is banned from various parts of the forum. Pro-cable debate and advice is not banned from any part of the forum.
> 
> I am sorry Beeman, but not only do I disagree with some of your points, there is evidence to show that those points are just plain wrong.


 

 I don't have to wonder why DBT discussions have been banned from so many forums.  Some would want to think it's because the moderators, among others wish to continue the 'ignorance'.  OTOH, I'd wager, it's more an interpersonal behavioural issue that leads to infighting and thread disruptions.
   
  Anyway, it would seem that things are remarkably civil now... but only for a while, I'm sure.


----------



## miloxo

Just wondering. Do videophiles claim that better power cables also provides more contrast in their screens? 
   
  Not saying that a better power cable does not make a difference... but it sound pretty stupid to me. The power goes trough cheap wires in your house, then trough an 'better cable' and then again trough cheap cables inside the device. Or the cable can do magic and makes the power better... orrr
   
  Yeah highly skeptical..


----------



## haloxt

I've read a few people who said they think so. More common are people who think power conditioners help.
   
  beeman, here's the album forum. http://www.head-fi.org/forum/list/9
   
  I highly recommend getting a 3 month or lifetime membership to www.magnatune.com they have over 1000 cd quality independent musician albums for download, and you can listen to each album fully but in low bitrate. Let me know if there's a few albums you'd like me to send you in cd quality, beeman, magnatune lets people share music freely  (says in their FAQ)..


----------



## aimlink

Quote: 





miloxo said:


> Just wondering. Do videophiles claim that better power cables also provides more contrast in their screens?
> 
> Not saying that a better power cable does not make a difference... but it sound pretty stupid to me. The power goes trough cheap wires in your house, then trough an 'better cable' and then again trough cheap cables inside the device. Or the cable can do magic and makes the power better... orrr
> 
> Yeah highly skeptical..


 

  
  It sounds equally 'pretty stupid' to me to assume that degraded power because of transmission over a distance can't be further degraded from wall socket to appliance.  I'm not saying that a power cord will necessarily make a difference.  I'm just saying that it's 'silly/stupid' to not care about further degradation once you think that there's already some degradation in what's presented to you at the socket.
   
  I suspect though that if there's a difference it may well be down to the connectors.  Good connections between the socket and power cord and then from power cord to appliance is vital.  HiFi Audio equipment may well be particularly sensitive to this.
   
  I had bought a cheap 6ft extension for my Ed8's and thought they were fine, but only for a while.  After a while, I discovered that the 1/8" plug to my amp gave a bad connection.  You fiddle with it and it's not that the sound would cut out, but the sound would actually change from a less to a more dynamic sound and back.  This doesn't happen with the stock 15ft extension cable, at least so I think.  I'll not be really happy until I have the Ed8's recabled with a 1/4" Furitech plug.  So a large part of the fuss may well have to do with just the integrity of the connectors involved.


----------



## Currawong

My theory, as yet untested, is that power cables (of at least 1.5m/5 ft) have enough capacitance that they do some RF filtering, hence the supposed improvement in sound quality.  All the OCCC wire stuff is very possibly pointless, but the curious designs of high-end cables probably have some kind of noise filtering effect to the benefit of quite a bit of gear.


----------



## maverickronin

Quote: 





miloxo said:


> Just wondering. Do videophiles claim that better power cables also provides more contrast in their screens?
> 
> Not saying that a better power cable does not make a difference... but it sound pretty stupid to me. The power goes trough cheap wires in your house, then trough an 'better cable' and then again trough cheap cables inside the device. Or the cable can do magic and makes the power better... orrr
> 
> Yeah highly skeptical..


 


 There's not even any analog video any longer so there's not much room for cables to do anything anymore.  There is justification for solidly designed and constructed HDMI cables since those frequencies are high enough to make audio look like DC, in comparison.  Bad connectors, poorly insulated conductors, and conductors which are too thin can start to eat a lot of the signal if a cable is longer than 3-6 feet or so.  Any cheep cable is likely to be good if you just have to run it 3' from your bluray player to your TV, but longer runs usually demand quality cable.  Fortunately monoprice's premium cables are more than up to the task.  I have 25' one I got for like $35 running from my PC to my Vizio.  It's also fortunate that it transmits a digital signal, so you'll know right away whether it works or not.  It will almost always work perfectly, not work at all, or be _very_ obviously broken.  There's no near infinite series of gradations that will leave you wondering if you can get better quality, like there is with audio.
  
  Quote: 





haloxt said:


> I've read a few people who said they think so. More common are people who think power conditioners help.


 

 I can't see how that would help your picture, but it's a good idea anyway since it will protect your gear from surges and spikes.  You don't need to spend a lot on a special A/V model though.  Ebay is full of used medical grade power conditioners for much better prices.


----------



## beeman458

*beeman, here's the album forum.*
   
  Hi Haloxt.  Thanks for the links.  I'll check them both out.  CD's, even at the used CD store, if the store is being used on a regular basis, can quickly become very expensive.


----------



## doctorcilantro

But it is the *first* few feet your component, drawing power, sees.
   
  No excuse for high priced BS, but well made cords of the right gauge aren't a bad idea.


----------



## Head Injury

Quote: 





doctorcilantro said:


> But it is the *first* few feet your component, drawing power, sees.


 

 But does that matter? You're drawing from a degraded source. If it degrades enough to be noticeable over about 5 feet, then the amount of degradation it has gone through on the trip from the generator and through the mains cables is staggering. Using anything but a rechargeable battery would be embarrassing.
   
  I hear this "first few feet" thing all the time, and it never makes much sense to me. I really need someone to explain in depth the reasoning behind it.
   
  It goes through an AC-to-DC conversion anyway. So really the amp itself doesn't see it at all, only the power supply in it.


----------



## beeman458

*I hear this "first few feet" thing all the time, and it never makes much sense to me. I really need someone to explain in depth the reasoning behind it.*
   
  It's a government thing.  It's there to help ya by straighten things out.
   
  Personally, I understand the interconnect cable thing but power cords do mystify me.
   
  My understanding, the power cord's purpose is to help remove noise that's introduced via the wall wiring.  It's also suppose to help prevent extraneous additions of EMI/RFI that's introduced by being around other cords and transformers on a power strip.  The design of the cord is suppose to prevent the power cord from creating EMI via it's personal design.  Lastly, like a capacitor (and no, it doesn't become a capacitor), it is suppose to make it easier for the transformer to meet power demands and remove the power supply cord as an energy bottleneck so energy flows smoothly to the transformer when demands are put upon the transformer during particularly hard attack passages of music; bass or treble.  And in doing so, is suppose to help open up the sound stage, make bass punchier and reduce the harshness of treble notes.
   
  Wait a second...... climbing into my special made, sonically approved, cyberspace fire retardant suit.
   
  Okay, let er rip.


----------



## Head Injury

Then why not buy a good power conditioner instead? That's actually proven to do some of the things power cables are claimed to do. Not necessarily sonically, but electrically.


----------



## beeman458

Then why not buy a good power conditioner instead?
   
  Working with you on your above.  I just recently purchased and had installed into the computer a new high grade power supply unit that has individual power supply links and as you suggested, this did make a small noticeable difference that put a smile on my face.
   
  Actually, when I evaluate changes, I ask myself how does the new sound impact my emotions as the sub-conscience knows more than I do as to what's what.  And if when I listen, my face lights up, or my shoulders don't crunch up when hearing a passage where they did crunch up, I know there's been a sonic change to the good.


----------



## Uncle Erik

Beeman458, there is no causal link between the problems you list and power cables. This is like telling people that it's 90 degrees out because you're wearing a blue shirt. There is no cause and effect, it is entirely a non sequitur. If you have a problem with RFI, you can buy a filter for about $4. $50 or so will buy you an isolation transformer that will take noise off the line. What you have to realize is that RFI and other forms of noise are measurable. You can buy a meter specifically made to measure RFI. Now, the measurable RFI can be defeated by, again, a measurable filter. All of this is accepted practice and has been for decades. I don't think you realize the amount of research that's gone into this. If there were different effects based on metals, etc., that would have been discovered 80 or 90 years ago. There would be extensive research done by the military, research universities and major corporations. There would be patents for industrial use. But none of that exists. Cables are on the same level as bigfoot, faith healers, UFO cranks, and your good old-fashioned snakeoil salesman.


----------



## Rdr. Seraphim

Just curious, so what about Bybee's quantum purifiers. These are used by the military and still classified (in some cases). The technology is being applied in audio in AC and IC's. Anyone measured or heard the effect these provide?


----------



## BIG POPPA

I will have to check the Pro Cables out. As for the last few years I have been making my own The Arcam has Belden 14AWG copper cable with Furutech Gold plated ends, The Woo has Cardas 11AWG copper with Oyaide Rhodium over Silver connectors, The Synergistic Research has PS Audio 10 AWG with some Marinco connectors. I have some Furutech SPC cable and some more Belden stuff laying around. The more cables I make cables, the more they disappear. I take is as a compliment. A few friends and relatives have them. All my cables in my rig are DIY. It doesn't mean I don't have any after market cables. And I do demo cable from a retailer from time to time to keep up with them. I do like the Oyaide Tunami cable for a manufactured cable.
  
  Quote: 





sovkiller said:


> Power cables??? Well...here is a very good site with very good prices on them, and very good customer service and reputation, other thna that I will pass...here is where I get mines lately...Pro Cables....you can beat those prices for hospital grade shielded power cables...
> 
> BTW those guys has other very good offers as well...


----------



## maverickronin

Quote: 





rdr. seraphim said:


> Just curious, so what about Bybee's quantum purifiers. These are used by the military and still classified (in some cases). The technology is being applied in audio in AC and IC's. Anyone measured or heard the effect these provide?


 

 Well this thread has finally gone off the deep end...
   
  I'd like to get into the magic talisman business as well, but my conscience just keeps getting in the way.


----------



## Rdr. Seraphim

Actually, I like the effect my Walker Audio Talisman has on CD's


----------



## maverickronin

Words fail me...
   
  At least DIY your own Halbach Array, not that it will do anything...
   
  Sometimes I find myself filled with faith and hope about the future of the human species, but then something like this comes along and reveals it all to be a naive delusion.


----------



## aimlink

Quote: 





maverickronin said:


> Words fail me...
> 
> At least DIY your own Halbach Array, not that it will do anything...
> 
> Sometimes I find myself filled with faith and hope about the future of the human species, but then something like this comes along and reveals it all to be a naive delusion.


 
   
  But hey, from the sound of it, it seems that you're all the hope that we need.  You go dude!!


----------



## haloxt

Quote:


> Sometimes I find myself filled with faith and hope about the future of the human species, but then something like this comes along and reveals it all to be a naive delusion.


 
   
  Don't put all your eggs in the same basket.


----------



## kboe

Well I just bought and received a Cardas TwinLink Power Cable From Todd R and my system has never sounded so good.  In fact my system is now the best system I have ever heard, hands down, no questions asked.  It is as if huge veil has been lifted, nothing flows through my system but emotion.  I won't say I was skeptical, but I do know interconnects make an impact, so I expected power cables to as well, I just wasn't sure how they would.  But now I know!  Well, now we can count myself as one of the faithful, of the true gospel of power cables.


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote: 





kboe said:


> "...*It is as if huge veil has been lifted, nothing flows through my system but emotion*..."


 


 The problem is that we all have heard those same words time after time, and trust me that is very hard to convince people with anecdotical evidence, I do not want to sound harsh, and sorry do not take me wrong, but those are the same exact words all we have heard along these years, the same that dealers use, the same that reviewers use...I could literally find this same exact phrase in reviews, literature from magazines, dealers pages, etc...
  
   
  Poppa I ordered once Marinco connectors from PartExpress and I still have a cable around done with them, to me those connectors are horrible, pretty flimpsy if you ask me, not sure about the exact model, but they were very poor implemented...to me Marinco is just another myth....Also as a curiosity why placing Rhodium over silver, is not silver a better conductor...it like taking a pure copper and tin it...llAlso becareful with non UL certified cables, any problem, fire, etc...and no insurance will cover you...in the professional world also they are not allowed if they are not UL certified...


----------



## BIG POPPA

Rhodium sounds so much smoother than Silver, Sovkiller. With tubes it smooths out the warmth in my experience.


----------



## Head Injury

Quote: 





kboe said:


> nothing flows through my system but emotion


 

 and electrons.


----------



## kboe

Quote: 





sovkiller said:


> The problem is that we all have heard those same words time after time, and trust me that is very hard to convince people with anecdotical evidence, I do not want to sound harsh, and sorry do not take me wrong, but those are the same exact words all we have heard along these years, the same that dealers use, the same that reviewers use...I could literally find this same exact phrase in reviews, literature from magazines, dealers pages, etc...


 

 Do you think thats maybe because its a true effect felt and heard by many people?  If you gave saltine crackers to 500 people, I bet you 99.9 percent of them would tell you its salty.  Not because the box tells them it is, or because the commercials say "the perfect slaty snack" but because they actually ate it and think it taste salty.  
   
  Its okay that you don't believe me.  Just don't tell me what I can and cant hear, because I don't feel the need to convert you to my side of the fence.  My comments are for people on my side, or people thinking if a power cable is a wise choice for them.  And perhaps for people on your side to make sense of us loonies.  I just don't like to be accused of lying.


----------



## kboe

Quote: 





head injury said:


> and electrons.


 

 That too! Te-hehe!


----------



## aimlink

Quote: 





kboe said:


> That too! Te-hehe!


 
  What's the Cardas power cord connected to on your system?  Your HP amp?


----------



## kboe

My MiniMax CD Player.  The amp runs off batteries.


----------



## Head Injury

Quote: 





kboe said:


> Do you think thats maybe because its a true effect felt and heard by many people?  If you gave saltine crackers to 500 people, I bet you 99.9 percent of them would tell you its salty.  Not because the box tells them it is, or because the commercials say "the perfect slaty snack" but because they actually ate it and think it taste salty.


 

 Give crackers to 500 blindfolded people. They'll still tell you it's salty. The same isn't true for power cables.


----------



## Currawong

Quote: 





head injury said:


> Then why not buy a good power conditioner instead? That's actually proven to do some of the things power cables are claimed to do. Not necessarily sonically, but electrically.


 

 My second one is arriving today.  Indeed, I'd rather something that has known abilities than something which is somewhat dubious, even if I have had interesting results.  It's an interesting topic, if people are willing to stop the "my truth is the only truth" stuff.
   
  Like others, I've annoyingly found that power cables seem to subtly affect the overall tonal balance of various pieces of gear to varying degrees, sometimes in a good way, sometimes bad.  This is annoying, as there is no solid science that says how this works.  I am going to experiment with plugs made from different metals, for my own curiosity.  What would be great is if, instead of just tub-thumping one's science religion in front of the computer, someone actually took the approach that, people believe they are hearing differences, so lets find out what, if anything, changes when power cords or parts of them are changed around.  I think, however, it would require someone with very deep pockets who could build an isolated building to do testing in, so that interference, among other things, could be introduced in measurable ways.


----------



## kboe

Honestly I feel it comes down to two type of people.  
   
  First there are those that seek emotional enjoyment, involvement, or people who literally see music like a drug, something to be taken daily and often.
   
  Then there are those who want to see the specs, shown the graph, or see the peer reviewed article talking about whatever or see the results from the double-blind test.
   
  I belong in the first group.  I didn't get into this hobby to understand what people in a test think, or what the electrical engineer "knows" is possible or not.   I want to listen to music, not frequency sweeps.  I want to feel emotional connectedness, not double-blind test proven results.  And truthfully this type of discussion helps nobody, as it only shows that the two groups exist.  Nothing more, nothing less.


----------



## Head Injury

Quote: 





kboe said:


> Honestly I feel it comes down to two type of people.
> 
> First there are those that seek emotional enjoyment, involvement, or people who literally see music like a drug, something to be taken daily and often.
> 
> ...


 

 But you only feel that emotion when you know you're using a certain cable. When it's really all there to begin with, cable or not. I wouldn't want to be tethered to a certain cable when I know I wouldn't be able to tell the difference between it and any other if they were covered up.
   
  It helps people. Of course it does. If it weren't for the people with their graphs and DBTs, everyone on this forum would be convinced cables do something tangible, and they'd all be wasting there money. We're saving new skeptics the cost of cable, and not affecting their musical enjoyment in the least.
   
  I enjoy music fine without expensive cables. If you feel like you can't, maybe you're as much a cablephile as you are an audiophile, and gain as much enjoyment from purchasing audibly meaningless strands of metal as you get from the music itself. Nothing wrong with that, but it's not the goal I think you're aiming for. Or economically sound.
   
  Don't think for a second that those with the graphs and DBTs can't enjoy their music. They can, they just don't have to spend as much to do so.


----------



## Trogdor

Quote: 





kboe said:


> Honestly I feel it comes down to two type of people.
> 
> First there are those that seek emotional enjoyment, involvement, or people who literally see music like a drug, something to be taken daily and often.
> 
> ...


 




  Quote: 





head injury said:


> But you only feel that emotion when you know you're using a certain cable. When it's really all there to begin with, cable or not. I wouldn't want to be tethered to a certain cable when I know I wouldn't be able to tell the difference between it and any other if they were covered up.
> 
> It helps people. Of course it does. If it weren't for the people with their graphs and DBTs, everyone on this forum would be convinced cables do something tangible, and they'd all be wasting there money. We're saving new skeptics the cost of cable, and not affecting their musical enjoyment in the least.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Head Injury hit it on the head (pun intended).
   
  If I told you you could get the EXACT same sonic performance for hundreds less, would you do it?   I dont know why the cable guys are so adverse against DBTs.  I have not herd one non-metaphysical argument about doing it.  Is it fear?  What is it?  Just DBT your stuff several times and determine for yourself if you really hear a difference.


----------



## kboe

I really don't know why we keep going back and forth.  I hear what I hear.  You hear what you hear.  If your method and understanding gets you to heightened musical experience, than thats the method you should go with.  If I find a different one, then I'll stick with it.  I enjoy the tar out of my music with less expensive gear, with sources that have higher jitter, and with cables that cost less, but I get a richer experiences with better gear, (and sometimes that means more money).
   
   If there were one answer, one headphone, one cable that bested them all and cost $30.00 and could be bought at radio shack, I'd be all over it.  Why wouldn't I want to save money.  I haven't heard that cable yet.  So when a manufacturer produces a better sounding cable, and I can afford it, then why shouldn't I buy it.  With opinions like yours, (the doubter in general) I simply don't understand why your here in the first place.  You would find minds better matched with yours in a science forum, not a music lovers forum.
   
   This realm of "high end" is populated with people willing to spend whatever it takes to get the sound they want.  When you think about it none of this makes sense in any way.  If I could listen to my music through a mp3 player and $5.00 earbuds, why spend more to do the same thing? I love to share my experiences with others, but when I'm told I cant trust my ears, we have nothing more to discuss, nothing to debate about.  When one side is absolute, there is no debate.  So at the urging of my more sane minded roommate who keeps asking why I keep sighing, this will be my last post about this topic.  I have better things to do, like listening to music, you can read the results of the latest double-blind test without me.  
   
  Happy tunes.


----------



## Uncle Erik

kboe, the point that you seem to be missing is that you won't hear the difference if you don't know which cable you're listening to. This has been demonstrated repeatedly in tests. No one can hear a difference if they don't know what they're listening to.

 Applying Occam's Razor, the simplest explanation is that the difference you hear is all in your head.

 That no electrical differences turn up - despite the quality of test gear and methodology - adds further evidence that the differences are all in your head.

 The nail in the coffin for me is the fly-by-night types of businesses that manufacture cables and the breathtaking difference between the actual cost of materials plus overhead and what they sell for. Even if there was a difference, you're still getting scammed considering the prices.


----------



## El_Doug

How dare you suggest that those who demand proof from a snake oil salesman somehow do not have an appreciation for music? 
   
  this post destroyed all of your credibility.  by implying such a dichotomy, you demonstrate that you have absolutely no understanding of the debate at large
  
  Quote: 





kboe said:


> Honestly I feel it comes down to two type of people.
> 
> First there are those that seek emotional enjoyment, involvement, or people who literally see music like a drug, something to be taken daily and often.
> 
> Then there are those who want to see the specs, shown the graph, or see the peer reviewed article talking about whatever or see the results from the double-blind test.


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote: 





kboe said:


> Do you think thats maybe because its a true effect felt and heard by many people?  If you gave saltine crackers to 500 people, I bet you 99.9 percent of them would tell you its salty.  Not because the box tells them it is, or because the commercials say "the perfect slaty snack" but because they actually ate it and think it taste salty.
> 
> Its okay that you don't believe me.  Just don't tell me what I can and cant hear, because I don't feel the need to convert you to my side of the fence.  My comments are for people on my side, or people thinking if a power cable is a wise choice for them.  And perhaps for people on your side to make sense of us loonies.  I just don't like to be accused of lying.


 

  
  No I do not think so, not all of them will hear "that veil that was removed" (I think that even me have used that terms in the past as well...)...but as a side note there is no such a rate as 99 out of 100 who hear these differences, indeed if far from that, and more close to the other way around, 99 out of 100 say they do not...but that is not enough for "a few golden ears"....
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  BTW If anything I could be accused with my post, was to say that you were repetitive, of what others had said, I never implied in any way that you were lying, just that I prefer a more original comment, instead of repeating exactly what others had said time after time, that BTW had not proved a thing over all these years...Again I never call you a liar as simply I do beleive you beleive you hear those differences...But if you implied that from my post, now that makes me think, that maybe something is not very clear here...


----------



## beeman458

*The same isn't true for power cables.*
  
  And the rub to the whole thesis of the anti-cable gang...... Just because some dude can reliably only hear a difference ten percent of the time, don't mean he's not hearing a difference like the anti-cable crowd says.
   
  Might convenient wouldn't you say?
   
  "I'm sorry, you can reliably hear a difference only ten percent of the time, so I'm here to state for the record, you ain't hearing pootie.  Why?  Because I say so, that's why."
   
  And nobody on the anti-cable side of the aisle sees this as self-serving to say what a person is or isn't hearing?
   
  Wow!


----------



## beeman458

*I dont know why the cable guys are so adverse against DBTs.*
   
  Smart people realize that DBT prove absolutely nothing other than the test giver arbitrarily discounts anything they haven't heard themselves.
   
  How can anybody, with a straight face, declare that something can't be heard by another.
   
  "I'm sorry, you didn't hear what you just heard because if you don't hear it often enough to suit my statistical purposes, I'm here to tell you, that you didn't hear what you heard."
   
  Or.......
   
  "I'm sorry, you didn't reliably hear it often enough to count, so I'm going personally declare you didn't hear what you say you heard because I know better."
   
  Even the medical field gets a better pass than fifty percent.
   
  "This drug may work only ten percent of the time but using this drug enhances your survival rate from zero percent to ten percent."
   
  I'd like to see one of these anti-cable testers turn this treatment down because it doesn't serve their seventy or eighty percent rule.  You really do need to look past the BS of these test givers and once you're on to their BS, it's wisdom, not aversion that stops one from being foolish enough to take a meaningless test designed to ensure fail.
   
  There's no debate here.  Why?  The dice are loaded in the favor of the house.  Who wants to play in this casino?


----------



## JamesL

Quote: 





beeman458 said:


> Even the medical field gets a better pass than fifty percent.
> 
> "This drug may work only ten percent of the time but using this drug enhances your survival rate from zero percent to ten percent."


 
   
  You absolutely gotta be kidding me... this is elementary-school logic..
   
  You're chance from randomly guessing STARTS at 50%, whereas in your example, the rate starts at 0%.
   
  A better analogy would be such - 
  "in your situation, the chances of your kid being born with blue eyes is 50%"
  "if you buy this untested drug for a lot of money, then the chances of your kid being born with blue eyes is still 50%"
  "on the bright side, there will be no adverse side-effects"
   
   
   
   
   
   
  Quote: 





> "I'm sorry, you didn't hear what you just heard because if you don't hear it often enough to suit my statistical purposes, I'm here to tell you, that you didn't hear what you heard."


 
   
  "inside one of these 2 boxes, there is a slip of paper.  If you are psychic like you claim you are, then you can tell me which one has the slip of paper."  (psychic guesses correctly 5 out of 10 times)
  "see, I told you i'm psychic.  just because I can't choose correctly all the time, doesn't mean I'm not psychic some of the time"
   
  mind blowing...


----------



## JamesL

Quote:


> Just because some dude can reliably only hear a difference ten percent of the time, don't mean he's not hearing a difference like the anti-cable crowd says.


 
   
  Sometimes, the results come out to 60/40.. sometimes 40/60.  All in all, it averages out to 50%
   
  Also, phrases like "what a day and night difference!!!", doesn't really lend itself to your 10% theory.


----------



## Uncle Erik

If someone can only hear a difference 10% of the time (assuming that isn't lucky guesses), then that means there is hardly any difference between cables. You might as well go with the $2 surplus power cord instead of the $500 one because even expert ears hear a minor difference one time out of ten. And for those of you who have never taken statistics, you really should.


----------



## Currawong

Quote: 





uncle erik said:


> If someone can only hear a difference 10% of the time (assuming that isn't lucky guesses), then that means there is hardly any difference between cables. You might as well go with the $2 surplus power cord instead of the $500 one because even expert ears hear a minor difference one time out of ten. And for those of you who have never taken statistics, you really should.


 

 How do you _know_ this? No, really? In any of these DBTs, was the person's hearing measured? Was their hearing ability in a test environment measured against other environments?  The reason I ask this is, because I know I perform worse in a test environment (as do many other people).  Has any of these tests measured the ability of a person or people to hear a measurable difference in equipment?
   
  Let me say this: Science is NOT making gross generalisations from limited experiments.  You are abusing science just as badly as the press does writing sensationalist nonsense. You can _only_ conclude absolutely from a test what it measures, nothing more.  If scientists made such gross generalisations from experiments as people do here, then we would not be discovering anything new about the universe with live in, as people would have long declared, for example, that subatomic particles and other obscure types of matter do not exist, and anyone saying otherwise would have been lynched, as scientists were lynched by religious leaders in previous centuries.  Your behaviour, just as with many others here, amounts to nothing more than a kind of religious belief, backed up by what evidence you can find, and ignoring any possibility of anything different. And before you say that your beliefs are backed up by evidence, re-read what I just wrote more carefully.
   
  It's sad that it's almost impossible to discuss these things rationally, as people are more interested in ego gratification than learning the truth of anything. The truth is not "I read it there and it fits with what I believe in."


----------



## JamesL

^
   
  I don't understand your post, or how it relates to what you quoted.
   
  edit correction - I do understand the words you are saying, but not in the context of what you replied to.


----------



## Prog Rock Man

Quote: 





currawong said:


> How do you _know_ this? No, really? In any of these DBTs, was the person's hearing measured? Was their hearing ability in a test environment measured against other environments?  The reason I ask this is, because I know I perform worse in a test environment (as do many other people).  Has any of these tests measured the ability of a person or people to hear a measurable difference in equipment?
> 
> Let me say this: Science is NOT making gross generalisations from limited experiments.  You are abusing science just as badly as the press does writing sensationalist nonsense. You can _only_ conclude absolutely from a test what it measures, nothing more.  If scientists made such gross generalisations from experiments as people do here, then we would not be discovering anything new about the universe with live in, as people would have long declared, for example, that subatomic particles and other obscure types of matter do not exist, and anyone saying otherwise would have been lynched, as scientists were lynched by religious leaders in previous centuries.  Your behaviour, just as with many others here, amounts to nothing more than a kind of religious belief, backed up by what evidence you can find, and ignoring any possibility of anything different. And before you say that your beliefs are backed up by evidence, re-read what I just wrote more carefully.
> 
> It's sad that it's almost impossible to discuss these things rationally, as people are more interested in ego gratification than learning the truth of anything. The truth is not "I read it there and it fits with what I believe in."


 

 With regards to your first paragraph, I have not come across a blind test where hearing ability was measured before hand. That would be a step to take which could help to explain why some hear differences and others do not, it is their hearing and those with better hear more and pick out the differences.
   
  Hearing ability in the test environment against other environments. Well, their actual hearing ability would be the same. If they perform worse in the tests environment that would mean they have failed the test.
   
  Blind tests not only measure whether actual differences can be heard or not. Blind tests are there to see if any difference can be heard or not. Claims that because 10% can hear a difference, there is a difference do not add up. If blind tests produced 90% results, then there really is a difference.
   
  Your second paragraph is wholly wrong. Blind testing is a recognised means of finding out if there is a difference between two or more things. It is used in all sorts of testing. When it is applied to audiophile claims of differences, those differences are regularly dis-proved by blind tests. That is not religious belief, it is belief of the science. If you say there are still differences, despite what blind tests say, then there is a reason for that. Actually that reason is well known and it is the placebo effect and psycho-acoustics.
   
  For me blind testing shows that there is no actual difference, but placebo effect and psycho-acoustics explain why some say there is still a difference.


----------



## Prog Rock Man

Quote: 





beeman458 said:


> *The same isn't true for power cables.*
> 
> And the rub to the whole thesis of the anti-cable gang...... *Just because some dude can reliably only hear a difference ten percent of the time*, don't mean he's not hearing a difference like the anti-cable crowd says.
> 
> ...


 

 You have mis-used the word reliably here. Achieving something 10% of the time is not reliable.
   
  That suggests I could sell you some thing that only works 1 in every 10 attempts and you would be happy with that and would go on to recommend my product to your friends as reliable. I promise you they would disagree!
   
  Sorry, but getting something to work only 10% of the time is actually very unreliable.


----------



## aimlink

Quote: 





currawong said:


> How do you _know_ this? No, really? In any of these DBTs, was the person's hearing measured? Was their hearing ability in a test environment measured against other environments?  The reason I ask this is, because I know I perform worse in a test environment (as do many other people).  Has any of these tests measured the ability of a person or people to hear a measurable difference in equipment?
> 
> Let me say this: Science is NOT making gross generalisations from limited experiments.  You are abusing science just as badly as the press does writing sensationalist nonsense. You can _only_ conclude absolutely from a test what it measures, nothing more.  If scientists made such gross generalisations from experiments as people do here, then we would not be discovering anything new about the universe with live in, as people would have long declared, for example, that subatomic particles and other obscure types of matter do not exist, and anyone saying otherwise would have been lynched, as scientists were lynched by religious leaders in previous centuries.  Your behaviour, just as with many others here, amounts to nothing more than a kind of religious belief, backed up by what evidence you can find, and ignoring any possibility of anything different. And before you say that your beliefs are backed up by evidence, re-read what I just wrote more carefully.
> 
> It's sad that it's almost impossible to discuss these things rationally, as people are more interested in ego gratification than learning the truth of anything. The truth is not "I read it there and it fits with what I believe in."


 

 Wonderfully said, and even so, there will be problems found in it as I see ProgRockMan has.


----------



## Currawong

Quote: 





prog rock man said:


> Your second paragraph is wholly wrong.


 

 It's entirely correct. Very simply, an experiment only measures what it has measured.  If, when you write up an experiment, you don't mention any possible variables that have not been considered that may have affected the results, then it's a poor experiment.
   
  Much of the problem is, we're used to reading about science as reported by the press.  When they report science, they only ever report the results of experiments and calculations, rarely to never the parts where the scientists state the limitations of what they've done.  So we're used to science being more black and white, when reported, rather than seeing the careful considerations that go into experiments and calculations. Reports about climate change are a great example of this, with the news generally saying "scientists have said XYZ" when really what they have said is "XYZ, but these are only estimates and could be inaccurate because of PQR".  I can clearly see, from my own experience, that much DBT is poor science, because of the things I mentioned in my previous post: No testing of the listening ability of the subjects; no attempt to determine if the components being tested have any electronically measurable differences; no attempt to determine at what threshold a positive result can be obtained (related to the previous points) and the people performing the tests are usually extremely biased and are performing them intent on getting a negative result.  None of this is good science.  It's actually closer to the kind of deception used by drug companies, anti-global-warming groups (sponsored by large, heavily polluting companies) and other corporations and religions use to try and continue destroying our health or whatever for their own profit.  The difference is, people are doing it blind to their own psychological motivations rather than to deliberately deceive others.
   
  The net result is, there is no point in discussing power cables, because, like religious discussions, they are pointless with people more interested in trumpeting their beliefs over any desire to know the truth, let alone do anything to find the truth.  This is true for most of the world.  We can just count ourselves lucky that it's just a power cable discussion. In some places, where people argue this way about their religion or whatever, it results in people being killed.  Worth thinking about (if grossly off-topic).


----------



## JamesL

Some of what he has to say holds a lot of truth, but I'm still trying to figure out if he misunderstood uncle erick's post, or if he's just posting a random rant.
   
   
   
  I think he was directing the post at uncle erick, but _in my eyes_, the same things he said holds even more true for most people who try to argue that cables do make a difference.
   
  Using any kind of scientific evidence to justify their point of view?... sounds like a cable marketing team... 
   
  People who refuse to believe any other possibility?  Cable-believers believe in cables because they refuse to believe that their senses are fallible.  
   
  Ego gratification?  holds equally true for both sides...
   
   
  is it the kettle that calls the pot black, or is it the pot that calls the kettle black?
  Often times, we find people from two different sides of the argument using the same example to support their side of the argument.


----------



## Prog Rock Man

Currawong, your post above reads like a rant against the press, science and suggests that there is a devious motive behind testing. Is that really the position that you hold?
   
  From my reading of blind tests, they are conducted by - 
   
  audiophiles, on themselves sometimes with not the best procedures (here!) and some with very good (The Boston Audio Society),
   
  audio magazines, with better procedures (What Hifi) and
   
  audio companies, with the best procedures (Belken, Harman International)
   
  I see no intent to deceive and for you to claim such really needs examples. I see no influence of the press in such tests.
   
  I agree that if XYZ is shown, then there could be another explanation of PQR causing inaccuracy. But that also may not be the case. Your only putting forward a theory to discredit test XYZ. To gain credibility show an example, tell us what the PQR might be. The reason why I say you are wrong to claim XYZ could be wrong is that XYZ in different testing situations come to very similar conclusions i.e. blind testing finds audiophiles cannot reliably pick out claimed sound quality differences and there is no PQR present to explain why that is wrong.
   
  I wish you would stop bringing religion into this. I believe in the science and you do not. We disagree with each other. We are participating in a free debate on a forum. Religious beliefs have nothing to do with that.


----------



## aimlink

Quote: 





currawong said:


> It's entirely correct. Very simply, an experiment only measures what it has measured.  If, when you write up an experiment, you don't mention any possible variables that have not been considered that may have affected the results, then it's a poor experiment.
> 
> Much of the problem is, we're used to reading about science as reported by the press.  When they report science, they only ever report the results of experiments and calculations, rarely to never the parts where the scientists state the limitations of what they've done.  So we're used to science being more black and white, when reported, rather than seeing the careful considerations that go into experiments and calculations. Reports about climate change are a great example of this, with the news generally saying "scientists have said XYZ" when really what they have said is "XYZ, but these are only estimates and could be inaccurate because of PQR".  *I can clearly see, from my own experience, that much DBT is poor science,* because of the things I mentioned in my previous post: No testing of the listening ability of the subjects; no attempt to determine if the components being tested have any electronically measurable differences; no attempt to determine at what threshold a positive result can be obtained (related to the previous points) and *the people performing the tests are usually extremely biased and are performing them intent on getting a negative result. * None of this is good science.  It's actually closer to the kind of deception used by drug companies, anti-global-warming groups (sponsored by large, heavily polluting companies) and other corporations and religions use to try and continue destroying our health or whatever for their own profit.  *The difference is, people are doing it blind to their own psychological motivations rather than to deliberately deceive others.*
> 
> The net result is, there is no point in discussing power cables, because, like religious discussions, they are pointless with people more interested in trumpeting their beliefs over any desire to know the truth, let alone do anything to find the truth.  This is true for most of the world.  We can just count ourselves lucky that it's just a power cable discussion. In some places, where people argue this way about their religion or whatever, it results in people being killed.  Worth thinking about (if grossly off-topic).


 
   
  I assume here that you're referring to the DBT's comparing audio components and interconnects?  I have serious reservations about them myself.  However, I wouldn't agree that in all these DBT's, the testers are biased.  While I do have reservations about the test designs at times, I also have a fundamental problem with switching back and forth between two very similar signatures and being able to easily and reliably tell the differences while doing so.  I have a problem with it even when doing sighted testing and it's not only with cables.  I am much better able to tell differences when I spend time with one signature and then switch to the other.  It's that one switch over that tells the most.  Once I start doing multiple switches back and forth, the differences are much less discernible.  As to the value of small differences, from experience again, I can say that small differences often make for significant differences in enjoyment over extended listening periods across different genres and different recording qualities.  So I also have disagreements with  those who say that even if there are differences, they they're insignificant and not worthwhile because they are supposedly so difficult to discern in blind testing.
   
  The curious thing is I'm still yet to hear from an anti-cable enthusiast who does hears differences in cables and have willingly admitted that these perceived differences are imagined.  Strong is the believer who has science backing his own personal experience.  Bewildered at science will be the ones who have a convincing experience as any, and are being told by current scientific evidence that it's all in their mind.  For many who experience this, they patiently wait for science to catch up.  Many have persisted and discovered appropriate methods for demonstrating the truth in their experience.  I'm in waiting since it's my belief that the truth lies somewhere in the middle.  There'll always be a lot of contention in and around things that not all are able to perceive.  Ego's will always abound and those who aren't able to perceive something will always claim that if they can't perceive X, then X doesn't exist.


----------



## aimlink

Quote: 





prog rock man said:


> *I believe in the science and you do not.* We disagree with each other. We are participating in a free debate on a forum. Religious beliefs have nothing to do with that.


 
   
  How on earth did you come to this conclusion from Currawong's posts????


----------



## JamesL

Quote: 





aimlink said:


> The curious thing is I'm still yet to hear from an anti-cable enthusiast who does hears differences in cables and have willingly admitted that these perceived differences are imagined.  Strong is the believer who has science backing his own personal experience.  Bewildered at science will be the ones who have a convincing experience as any, and are being told by current scientific evidence that it's all in their mind.


 

 I can consistently hear a difference between 2 of my diy amps for example, but if I still consistently heard that difference after it was revealed to me that someone switched out the internals from the enclosure, I would be willing to admit that the difference I heard could have been a result of my expectations for what each amp should sound like.  (or influenced by the appearance of the enclosure or the heat it produces).
  I hope that I am not a minority.


----------



## aimlink

Quote: 





jamesl said:


> I can consistently hear a difference between 2 of my diy amps for example, but if I still consistently heard that difference after it was revealed to me that someone switched out the internals from the enclosure, I would be willing to admit that the difference I heard could have been a result of my expectations for what each amp should sound like.  (or influenced by the appearance of the enclosure or the heat it produces).
> I hope that I am not a minority.


 

 I wasn't asking about IF's.  I'm asking, have YOU ever consistently heard a difference, only to be told that a DBT has demonstrated no difference between the two components that you're consistently hearing a difference between?  It's been demonstrated over and over again, that direct experience all too often leads to a different attitude compared to one based on thinking IF's.  This is why experience is so important.


----------



## Prog Rock Man

Quote: 





aimlink said:


> How on earth did you come to this conclusion from Currawong's posts????


 
   
  Because he said this
   
  "No testing of the listening ability of the subjects; no attempt to determine if the components being tested have any electronically measurable differences; no attempt to determine at what threshold a positive result can be obtained (related to the previous points) and the people performing the tests are usually extremely biased and are performing them intent on getting a negative result.  None of this is good science."
   
  To clarify I am talking about the science behind blind testing in relation to audiophile claims to do with power cables in particular and cables in general.
   
  Hifi Wigwam conducted a test where four power cables were disguised with the same sheathing and then set to different forum members who had about a week each to try the cables on their own kit at home. At the end eight of them said they had heard differences between the same cable, as two were identical. None reliably picked out the audiophile cable. That is a well conceived and conducted test with no press influence or deception or religiously held beliefs to somehow falsify the results.
   
  Currawong speaks speculatively and as I quote "None of this is good science". I am speaking of actual testing where there is is very good science.


----------



## Lenni

isn't this a DBT free forum? why are we discussing dbt topics here?
   
  Mods... anyone there? maybe this thread should be moved there. 
   
  there's a whole forum dedicated to the science Ohmies, but you keep posting here.
  ???
   
   ​


----------



## JamesL

Quote: 





aimlink said:


> I wasn't asking about IF's.  I'm asking, have YOU ever consistently heard a difference, only to be told that a DBT has demonstrated no difference between the two components that you're consistently hearing a difference between?  It's been demonstrated over and over again, that direct experience all too often leads to a different attitude compared to one based on thinking IF's.  This is why experience is so important.


 
   
  Before I say anything else, I completely agree with you, though I'd prefer the term 'heavily influence' rather than 'leads to'.
   
   

 Its not _entirely_ a "IF".  There have been DBT tests that suggested no audible difference in the 'sonic signature' of different power amps.  
   
   
  You're completely right.. that alone.. a few studies whose results were posted on the internet about power amps isn't enough to sway my views, but if for example someone asked me to listen to 2 different amps that were the same internally (and I thought them to sound dramatically different), yes I would, without a doubt open myself to explore that possibility.


----------



## aimlink

In medicine, the DBT is held dear, but how it's done is fundamentally different in the majority of trials.
   
  In the DBT's being discussed here, it's the same subject that is asked to detect a difference between two or more cables while they're blinded to which cable is which.
   
  In medical trials, each subject is given only one of the treatments.  So if you're comparing two drugs, you'll have a group of patients given drug X, another given drug Y, and yet another, given placebo.  If you're testing if a particular drug make a difference, then you'll have one group receiving the drug and comparing findings to another group receiving placebo.  In this design, each patient is assessed after their experience with one treatment.  
   
  It's not like with cables where each subject is given both drugs on separate occasions and assessed for differences.  This is avoided or impractical for obvious reasons.... in medical testing of therapeutic modalities.
  When you confine each test subject to one stimulus, you immediately negate the influence of one stimulus on the other.  You can assess the influence of one stimulus fully isolated from the other.  
   
  This is why this methodology is paramount as an essential component to credible medical evidence.  I think it's a very good scientific approach too.
   
  OTOH, with cable DBT's, the same subjects, under test conditions, are being asked to differentiate between two similar stimuli.  Based on this, sweeping conclusions are made?  Am I supposed to roll over and throw out my own personal experience and that of others based on this?   The only real advocates of this are the ones who themselves can't tell a difference even when sited or those who haven't tried it to any meaningful extent.


----------



## aimlink

Quote: 





jamesl said:


> You're completely right.. that alone.. a few studies whose results were posted on the internet about power amps isn't enough to sway my views, but if for example someone asked me to listen to 2 different amps that were the same internally (and I thought them to sound dramatically different), yes I would, without a doubt open myself to explore that possibility.


 

 I pretty much share your POV here.  OTOH, I've already expressed my opinion on DBT's where each subject has to compare the different stimuli one after the other under test conditions.  I've read testimonies here where individuals have successfully differentiated cables when blinded.  That's all I need to hear and more power to them.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  The thing that is interesting is that suddenly if you do the same test over and over again, then it's more valid.  Though, I agree that reproduceability is an important component to credible evidence, I would have to challenge this credibility if the test is being conducted in the same way each time.


----------



## beeman458

*You're chance from randomly guessing STARTS at 50%, whereas in your example, the rate starts at 0%.*
   
  Which the fifty percent is automatically, arbitrarily and speciously discounted to zero because the test giver says so as the test has no variance for reality or varying degrees of sensitivity.  Gee, some people have trouble taking a pee while others watch, yet this is both understandable and acceptable as reality has no place in these sorts of trumped up, here's proof, cable test.  Yes, elementary.  It's elementary, only if you can't see the con.
   
  I can't believe you folks haven't been called on this BS earlier by others it's so patently false on it's face.


----------



## Currawong

Quote: 





jamesl said:


> Some of what he has to say holds a lot of truth, but I'm still trying to figure out if he misunderstood uncle erick's post, or if he's just posting a random rant.


 

 The second paragraph was indeed a rant, directed generally, at people with the attitude that because an experiment occurred, that they could make gross generalisations as a result.  I probably should add that I don't think all experiments are bad, I just see a lot of BS here and on audio forums where people claim to be doing good science, which may or may not be true, but then making gross conclusions about things in general which is _not_ science.
  
  Quote: 





prog rock man said:


> Currawong, your post above reads like a rant against the press, science and suggests that there is a devious motive behind testing. Is that really the position that you hold?


 

 Re-read my post again please.  You're only seeing bits of it.  My rant is against bad science and BS conclusions which people make.   I'm not saying this about all experiments or people, just a certain segment. An intelligent person will be able to see clearly whether someone or something falls under my post or not. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  
  Quote: 





aimlink said:


> I assume here that you're referring to the DBT's comparing audio components and interconnects?  I have serious reservations about them myself.  However, I wouldn't agree that in all these DBT's, the testers are biased.  While I do have reservations about the test designs at times, I also have a fundamental problem with switching back and forth between two very similar signatures and being able to easily and reliably tell the differences while doing so.  I have a problem with it even when doing sighted testing and it's not only with cables.  I am much better able to tell differences when I spend time with one signature and then switch to the other.  It's that one switch over that tells the most.  Once I start doing multiple switches back and forth, the differences are much less discernible.  As to the value of small differences, from experience again, I can say that small differences often make for significant differences in enjoyment over extended listening periods across different genres and different recording qualities.  So I also have disagreements with  those who say that even if there are differences, they they're insignificant and not worthwhile because they are supposedly so difficult to discern in blind testing.
> 
> The curious thing is I'm still yet to hear from an anti-cable enthusiast who does hears differences in cables and have willingly admitted that these perceived differences are imagined.  Strong is the believer who has science backing his own personal experience.  Bewildered at science will be the ones who have a convincing experience as any, and are being told by current scientific evidence that it's all in their mind.  For many who experience this, they patiently wait for science to catch up.  Many have persisted and discovered appropriate methods for demonstrating the truth in their experience.  I'm in waiting since it's my belief that the truth lies somewhere in the middle.  There'll always be a lot of contention in and around things that not all are able to perceive.  Ego's will always abound and those who aren't able to perceive something will always claim that if they can't perceive X, then X doesn't exist.


 

 I have much the same attitude. I decided, some time ago, that since it must be "all in my mind" that nothing should happen if i changed power cables.  I was annoyed that, expecting nothing, I got a difference. I would like to know why. So I want more than just _"DBTs say it's all in your mind"_.  I don't buy that, for a great many reasons, ranging from things I've learned about electricity, physics and electronics as well as about my own abilities and limitations and those of people, physically and psychologically.  I'm pretty sure I could create DBTs that people would both pass and fail, with equipment that was both measurably and not measurably different.  Hopefully my rant and this comment will prompt some people to have an intelligent discussion on this.  Might require a lot of input from people who know a lot about electronics, as well about how to properly conduct experiments, though they are probably avoiding threads like this like the plague. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Quote:


prog rock man said:


> Because he said this
> 
> "No testing of the listening ability of the subjects; no attempt to determine if the components being tested have any electronically measurable differences; no attempt to determine at what threshold a positive result can be obtained (related to the previous points) and the people performing the tests are usually extremely biased and are performing them intent on getting a negative result.  None of this is good science."
> 
> ...


 

 I probably should have added "In all the experiments I have read about, there was..." As for the power cable test, thanks for the example. Got a link to it? What would you conclude from those results?  Yes, I'm going to verbally slaughter you if you get it wrong. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
I hope this thread can turn into something more like the 128k vs. lossless thread, where we're actually learning something and experimenting (though obviously with power cables that might be a bit harder to do) than just screaming beliefs at each other.


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## Head Injury

Quote: 





beeman458 said:


> *You're chance from randomly guessing STARTS at 50%, whereas in your example, the rate starts at 0%.*
> 
> Which the fifty percent is automatically, arbitrarily and speciously discounted to zero because the test giver says so as the test has no variance for reality or varying degrees of sensitivity.  Gee, some people have trouble taking a pee while others watch, yet this is both understandable and acceptable as reality has no place in these sorts of trumped up, here's proof, cable test.  Yes, elementary.  It's elementary, only if you can't see the con.
> 
> I can't believe you folks haven't been called on this BS earlier by others it's so patently false on it's face.


 

 wat
   
  beeman458, do you have a coin nearby? I want you to flip it 10 times.
   
  heads tails tails tails heads heads tails heads tails heads
   
  How many did I get right? Just to let you know, the ones I got right I predicted using my vastly powerful and unlimited psychic powers. The rest I didn't, for whatever reason. I guess I just didn't feel like it.


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## beeman458

*"see, I told you i'm psychic.  just because I can't choose correctly all the time, doesn't mean I'm not psychic some of the time"*
   
*mind blowing...*
   
  What I find mind blowing is that folks actually worry about this sort of stuff.  Somebody wants to say they're psychic, I believe them....... and then walk away.  I don't feel compelled to prove or disprove their claim and find it odd that folks bust their butt like they do to prove that someone's a charlatan .  What I find even more interesting is that folks follow the efforts of those who try to do the discrediting.
   
  "Why, I read their book."
   
  "You did?  What, you couldn't have just taken their word for it and walked away?  You actually had to waste your time and read their book to tell you what you're already convenienced of?"
   
  ???


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## beeman458

*Also, phrases like "what a day and night difference!!!", doesn't really lend itself to your 10% theory.*
   
  We all know that "all" people are lent to exaggeration but you won't read me writing words like "night and day."  Why?  Because the differences that I hear are very minute and I even have to challenge myself as to what the differences are that I'm hearing but collectively, the changes I make, do make a difference.  I try to do my best to stay out of the exaggerative world.
   
  FWIW, it's about the sum of the parts.  What it's not about, is the individual part being discussed.  If you want the discussion to be about a singular part, drop me from the discussion as that's too finite for me and my dependable sensitivities but if you want the discussion to be about the sum of the parts, SQ and it's emotional impact, count me in.
   
  Example; are you OpAmp rolling on a broken in sound card with a couple hundred hours of use, or a brand new, never been used sound card?  How does a broken in amp affect the sonic chain; SQ and emotional impact?  What's the quality of the electricity being supplied to the sound card and what's the level of the sound cards DAC?  What's the level of the individual's hearing sensitivity; 1db, 1/2db, 0.2db or 0.1db?  Has the sensitivity of the individual's hearing been reliably tested?  Mine pretty much sucks at about a reasonably reliable 1/2db.
   
  Sum of the parts.


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## beeman458

*If someone can only hear a difference 10% of the time (assuming that isn't lucky guesses), then that means there is hardly any difference between cables.*
   
  I'll agree with this but in the end, it's about the sum of the parts.  What it's not about is the individual part.


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## beeman458

*How many did I get right? Just to let you know, the ones I got right I predicted using my vastly powerful and unlimited psychic powers. The rest I didn't, for whatever reason. I guess I just didn't feel like it.*
   
  You're amazing.  I bow to your psychic prowess.
   
  I have absolutely no trouble with your above example.  If you can do this consistently, more power to ya.  I'm sure you'll do well in the casinos.  And if you don't go to the casinos for ethical reasons, I'll understand.


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## beeman458

*And for those of you who have never taken statistics, you really should.*
   
  My business professor, told me I wasn't suited for business.  I've been in business for thirty-one years.  I find it interesting that for all the examples of the numbers of professors that wiff the ball, folks still rely on their prattlings to make themselves feel good about themselves: "Why, I have a degree."
   
  When statistics are applied in an invalid way, no amount of education is going change this point.
   
  How's the saying go, "*Lies, damned lies, and statistics*."


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## beeman458

*You have mis-used the word reliably here.*
   
  No I haven't,
   
*Achieving something 10% of the time is not reliable.*
   
  Sure it is as it has a reliability factor of one in ten, but you're welcome to say it's not as it's not about you as it's about my listening pleasure, even if you don't approve of my characterizations.
   
*That suggests I could sell you some thing that only works 1 in every 10 attempts and you would be happy with that and would go on to recommend my product to your friends as reliable. I promise you they would disagree!*
   
  Nobody said the cables only works one out of ten times.  What I wrote was that the individual could, as an example, detect the differences one out of ten times because that was the level of their sensitivity due to their noise floor.  It helps to maintain context of what I write.
   
*Sorry, but getting something to work only 10% of the time is actually very unreliable.*
   
  Not if it reliably continues to work one out of ten times over many hundreds and thousands of times of use.  It's dependability may suck but it's still reliable in that you know you're going eventually be able to get it to work.


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## Head Injury

Quote: 





beeman458 said:


> *And for those of you who have never taken statistics, you really should.*
> 
> My business professor, told me I wasn't suited for business.  I've been in business for thirty-one years.  I find it interesting that for all the examples of the numbers of professors that wiff the ball, folks still rely on their prattlings to make themselves feel good about themselves: "Why, I have a degree."
> 
> ...


 

 How is it applied in an invalid way? You still haven't adequately answered that. 50% guessing is valid, as I hoped you would have understood from my coin demonstration.
   
  Is it maybe because you're so hung up on the "Who's to say that if he guesses right 1 in 10 times, that one time he did hear it?" First, tests should normally run 20 times, and second a whole argument is not based on one man's results. Look around on the forum, like in Prog Rock Man's thread in the Science forum. There have been many tests done, on many different types of equipment, some with many test subjects, and only a lucky few have guessed above chance.
   
  You're also confused as to the use of the word "reliable". Pay particular attention to definition #2, it applies most to statistics. You're free to believe 1 in 10 is reliable, but I fear for your safety.
   
  Also, five posts in a row. Nice.


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## beeman458

*Also, five posts in a row. Nice.*
   
  How do you suggest I deal with the many posts, such as yours, posted to me by several different personalities, maintain separation of response and context?
   
  ???


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## Head Injury

Use the Multiquote button. The one with a pair of quotation marks on it. Click it on every post you want to respond to, and click the single quotation mark button on the last one.


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## beeman458

*How is it applied in an invalid way? You still haven't adequately answered that. 50% guessing is valid,*
   
  Sure I have.  In the case of ABX cable tests, the fifty percent, you're guessing rule is a species rule of convenience that discounts reality in that it doesn't allow for low level hearing sensitivity in that it's doesn't allow for those tests where an individual really can hear a difference but only with a dependency factor lower than fifty percent.
   
  In the case of cable tests, this parameter is being applied as a matter of convenience to prove a bias.
   
*...as I hoped you would have understood from my coin demonstration.*
   
  What makes you think I didn't understand your example?
   
  ???


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## beeman458

*Use the Multiquote button.*
   
  I'll do my best to figure this one out.  Thanks!


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## beeman458

*You're also confused as to the use of the word "reliable". Pay particular attention to definition #2,*
   
_*2* *:* giving the same result on successive trials._
   
  Definition #2, when used in the context that I used the word, supports my comments of a reliability factor of one in ten.
   
  (Fortunately for me, oh darn, I have to go to work.)


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## aimlink

Quote: 





prog rock man said:


> Because he said this
> 
> "No testing of the listening ability of the subjects; no attempt to determine if the components being tested have any electronically measurable differences; no attempt to determine at what threshold a positive result can be obtained (related to the previous points) and the people performing the tests are usually extremely biased and are performing them intent on getting a negative result.  None of this is good science."
> 
> ...


 

 I'd be quite interested in a blind test of that design, but while using cables that the subjects would normally be able to do a sighted A/B differentiation under the same circumstances.  At that point, we'd have strong evidence for placebo effect with those subjects and with those cables.
   
  I will not be commenting further about this since as Lenni rightfully says, we probably shouldn't be discussing DBT's here.
   
  I'd normally take this up with you in the thread "Audiophile Myths and Claims", but after your comments in this post of yours, I decided to stay out for sure.


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## leeperry

considering the length of regular wire between my audio gear, my house counter and the mains power grid...I'm not really a believer in high purity copper power cables yada yada, but shielding is very real...especially in those wifi-warfare days(I can pick up +10 networks where my gear stands
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





).
   
  so whaddayasay about ferrites on AC cables? noone seem to agree on anything of course: http://www.agoraquest.com/viewtopic.php?topic=24349&forum=65&start=0&select_page_number=1 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





> I have found that when it comes to Digital equipment which is highly sensitive to RFI contamination the ferrite filtered power cords offer much better performance, but on non-Digital equipment the LAT powercord worked much better than the power cords with ferrite filtering.


 


> I added a total of 40 more ferrite filters to MMM's various cables, interconnects, power cords, speaker cables. Remember she has 9 speakers and 6 subs so there are alot of cables. The effects have been positive without any detecable loss of dynamics. In fact there seems to be an improvement in that area due to less noise.


 
http://www.venhaus1.com/diymains.html


> I have found that Ferrites constrict the dynamics of the system and they ADD inductance to the hot/neutral


 
   
  some say that ferrite filtering gives a "blacker" background, and others that all it does is destroying the sine waves...but the ferrites I use only add impedance >25Mhz: http://vendor.parker.com/Groups/Seal/Divisions/Chomerics/Chomerics%20Product%20Library.nsf/24eb4985905ece34852569580074557a/9cd8138d75093bd08525699d00460881/$FILE/chosorb.pdf
   
  regular ferrites can destroy a TMDS signal, though(but AC is 50/60Hz): http://www.scapro.se/text/murataemidvi.pdf
   


> A major issue is that the addition of an EMI filter, for example, can cause waveforms to lose their shape, making faithful data transmission impossible. [..]
> DVI transmission rates are in excess of 1.6Gbps, and if ferrite beads are added to signal lines, not only is the extraneous noise component eliminated, but also the frequency components that make up the signals to be transmitted!


   
  TDK sell ferrites specifically aimed at filtering TMDS signals.


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## maverickronin

Show Don't Tell
   
  On my random play this morning...


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## Spelaeus

... There is so much wrong with this post that it's almost difficult to reply to, so I'll try to take things point by point in the italicized text.
  
  Quote: 





beeman458 said:


> Smart people realize that DBT prove absolutely nothing other than the test giver arbitrarily discounts anything they haven't heard themselves.
> 
> _No. Just no. Double-blind testing is double-blind when neither the subject nor the test giver know which item is which during the test_. _It only records the data generated by the subject while attempting to eliminate experimenter bias. That's the whole *point* of DBT._ _For that matter, one would think that "smart people" would actually know what DBT involves..._
> 
> ...


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## Rdr. Seraphim

Did you feel that cool breeze waft in here? It was a few of posts ago I think...


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## El_Doug

All I feel in this thread is a warm breeze that smells of poopoo... 
  
  Quote: 





rdr. seraphim said:


> Did you feel that cool breeze waft in here? It was a few of posts ago I think...


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## boomana

This is a DBT free forum.  This thread is locked until it can be cleaned up.  If you want to have a DBT discussion, please do so in the Sound Science forum.  If you can't follow the rules with posting here, you're basically asking to not be allowed to post at all.  Your choice.


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