# R2R DA M1 Ultracap powered build



## bballas

I want build my r2rdac,without transformers,with ultracapacitor.Only i2s inputs.Maybe need some help.
 Any suggestion?


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## bballas

some components alredy finished,waiting the r2rmodul......


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## bballas

​
 life with transformers not so easy


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## bballas

IPPS-independent perfect power ​supply works perfectly
 I find the name of my Dac: R2R Detonator dac
 analog output stages: 101d tubes........


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## bballas

​Detonator dac ....


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## bballas

Test,sound better than nos7


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## bballas




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## bballas




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## gikigill

Looking good mate, how about a case now? I'm interested in possibly building one.


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## bballas

gikigill said:


> Looking good mate, how about a case now? I'm interested in possibly building one.



With Nfb1 output stages works fine,but no place for power boards.Also need 2 rail uptone audio Lps1 or DIY capacitor supply.not easy.Better choice old Nfb7 or tube output stage.I have one empty m7 chassis,not decided yet witch stages would be better...


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## gikigill

How much would it cost to build?


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## Moochibond

gikigill said:


> How much would it cost to build?


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## bballas

moochibond said:


>



Now not to much,if I want better output stages,......


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## bballas




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## bballas

More neutral,better details,better mid and much real presentation.only soundstage not wider,not deeper,


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## bballas

No more regulators....


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## abartels

bballas said:


> No more regulators....


 
  
 Looks like a very nice project!
  
 Keep up the good work!
  
 Regards,
 Alex


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## bballas

abartels said:


> Looks like a very nice project!
> 
> Keep up the good work!
> 
> ...



Thanks,lot of work...


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## bballas




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## bballas

I never heard this fantastic sound in my life.....


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## bballas

Run 5 stage u cap power


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## bballas

Detonator dac!


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## TurbOSquiD67

What you're doing with the DA-M1 is really awesome. Definitely following! Hopefully learning so I could try someday as well. Though, I do have a lot to learn. 
  
 -T


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## bballas

turbosquid67 said:


> What you're doing with the DA-M1 is really awesome. Definitely following! Hopefully learning so I could try someday as well. Though, I do have a lot to learn.
> 
> -T



Thanks,my hobby.nos7 really good dac but I work so hard...


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## TurbOSquiD67

You work hard, and when you're successful it feels really good!
 Is it too early to compare the NOS7 and your DA-M1 rig? I'm sure they are two different worlds. 
 Possible to create a dac with 8 pcs DA-M1?


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## bballas

turbosquid67 said:


> You work hard, and when you're successful it feels really good!
> Is it too early to compare the NOS7 and your DA-M1 rig? I'm sure they are two different worlds.
> Possible to create a dac with 8 pcs DA-M1?



Yes,too early compare.The latest config sound stage get extra wide,
But very dark.Burn in now,I want see what happen.
Can build with 8 dam1,but already too big.


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## bballas

much better now,very dark background,super details,everything fantastic.


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## bballas

Compared,nos7 have more body,I have better details.nfb1 output stage not so good than nos7.
I don't give up!!!I have some plain...


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## hansenni

http://bbs.audio-gd.com/dispbbs.asp?boardid=7&Id=30415


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## TurbOSquiD67

Both of these builds are SICK! Someday I will be this talented. Just gotta study and learn. 
  
 Fully balanced too?


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## bballas

​The next step,trial balanced........


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## Moochibond

bballas said:


> I never heard this fantastic sound in my life.....


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## TurbOSquiD67

8 pcs? 16 pcs? 64 PCS?!?!?!?!?


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## bballas

What 8,16,64 pcs???


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## bballas

Audio Gd Nfb1 Sabre powered with 3 ultracaps board (1.2v,3.3v,3.3v) Sound get much analog,softer,better microdetails,blacker background.......
 But Dam1 have better midrange,and more real sounding,i can listen long long time.


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## abartels

Today I did built my first Supercap psu, materials ordered at Bballas and followed his instructions.
  
 It replaces a DIYINHK 0.8uV ultra low noise psu which feeds an Allo.com Kali reclocker on my Raspberry Pi.
  
 Normally I use an Ian Canada FIFI II reclocker / isolator / DualXO board, all fed with seperate 0.8uV psu's.
 This sounds better than the Allo.com Kali reclocker, probably because the Kali reclocker doesn't have an isolationboard between FIFO and XO-reclock stage.
 For the moment the Ian's Canada FIFO II set is at Ian's home because I had some troubles with it, that is why I have Allo.com Kali reclocker for the time being.
  
 As said, today I replaced the 0.8uV psu with the supercap powersupply, and, just started listening.
  
 In one word: A M A Z I N G
  
 It exceeds soundquality from Ian's Canada FIFO II kit, fed by 0.8uV ultra low noise psu's!
 I notice improvements at all facets!
  
 Here's my test setup:
  

  

  
 Many thanks to Bballas for pointing me in this direction! For me this will be a gamechanger, now thinking on building a new dac, completely fed by supercap psu's.
  
  
 Cheers to all, and keep up the good work! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Regards,
 Alex


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## Moochibond

abartels said:


> Today I did built my first Supercap psu, materials ordered at Bballas and followed his instructions.
> 
> It replaces a DIYINHK 0.8uV ultra low noise psu which feeds an Allo.com Kali reclocker on my Raspberry Pi.
> 
> ...


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## bballas

Enjoy The music Alex!!!!!
And go back to work!!hahaha...


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## abartels

bballas said:


> Enjoy The music Alex!!!!!
> And go back to work!!hahaha...


 
  
 Hahahahahaha, first things first Balazs 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 which means, listening A LOT 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Yesterday evening listened again, after 2 days of burn-in time I really was very pleased, or, maybe say, shocked about it's sonic performance!
 It definitely performs M U C H better than the Ian FIFO II kit, powered by 2 R-Cores, 2 EMI/RFI filters and 2 HQ LT3042 psu's!!!!!!
  
 I was used to the Ian's FIFO kit-sound, which was overwhelming good, but this takes it to another level, again 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 The easiness of which it plays the deepest basses and the enormous tightness of it, and all of that with such a power reserve, it's almost alien.
 Voices again gives me gooseflesh, all the details never heard before, in a musical matter, soundstage width, depth and highth, precision, it's lifelike.
 I dare ANY analog set to compete with it, any day, any hour.......
  
 I can't imagine how it will sound next saturday when it has completely burned-in, and, how will Ian's FIFO II kit perform when powered by this beauty???
  
 For sure I will solder a few other ones and let them burn-in so they are ready for use when Ian's FIFO II kit again arrives at my doorstep 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
 Cheers  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 P.s. Balazs, you were absolutely right when saying this is the best you've ever heard, in my opinion it is too!!! Thanks again for this great opportunity!!!!
  
  
 Alex


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## bballas




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## bballas

Dac build....


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## bballas

I have a dream
No,this is reality!!!!!!


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## Moochibond

bballas said:


>


 
  
 Work of art!


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## HiGHFLYiN9

How many amps does that DAC draw? KEE-RAY-ZEE!!


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## abartels

highflyin9 said:


> How many amps does that DAC draw? KEE-RAY-ZEE!!


 
  
 30mA only per DA-M1 and maybe a few hundred mA's for outputstage....
 Not sure what you meant with your post...
  
 Supercaps / Ultracaps is about SQ and not about delivering lots of Amps.


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## bballas

some spec: 
Weight:1.5kg
size: Gd Nfb1 Chassis
power con.: 5Watt
input: i2s
dc input:12-24v 10A
outputs:rca,xlr,acss
output Stage:Gd NFB1 
DaM1 modules:4Pcs.
Lt 3042 modules:6Pcs
U cap relay modules:5Pcs
Voltage meter on display
In wire analog and digital:0.6mm silver
Sound class:Ultra Neutral-High End


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## bballas

Burn in lt3042,sounstage get very very wide


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## bballas

Not finished yet


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## bballas




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## bballas

Detonator server


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## abartels (Apr 30, 2017)

Here are some pics of my supercap / ultracap designs, take use of 4-Channel relay boards to cut common ground,
1-Channel relay-delay timer (simpler version, but has also powersaving mode to turn-off display) and can be used
as startup-delay also (1-time switching). DC-DC converter used is a CC/CV (Constant Current / Constant Voltage) type with both LED display for Current and Voltage.

AK4495SEQ DAC, my design, uses 4x 7V for Analog (2 different sets for L/R) and 2x3.3V.

I made a mistake when ordering the delay-relay-timer boards and only ordered 3 pieces instead of 6.
In my design this is no problem at all, each relay-delay-timer board will activate one set of two ucaps psu's (2x4-channel relay boards).

Didn't manage to configure DC-DC converters today, had some other duties to take care of.
It is best to configure DC-DC converters Voltage A N D Current before connecting them to the Supercaps.

I have a 1 Ohm resistor which I will use for this since Current isn't configurable when there's no current flowing, LED display otherwise doesn't show anything.

Second thing to do is to program the timers, in my case I will start with 10 minutes (600 seconds on display of timers). After DC-DC converters and timers are configured, all will be connected and first testphase will start 

Of course I have to measure voltage drop within 10 minutes, and monitor this real good, if voltage drops too low at one of the voltage rails, AK4495SEQ will not perform at its best. Curious if I really can use 10 minutes setting.
If not, I probably will modify all the psu's with twice as much supercaps (in parallel) to double the runtime.
Wish me good luck


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## abartels (Apr 29, 2017)

To explain the difference between Bballas and my design, I use seperate timer and relay boards because the 4-channel relay-delay-timers are too expensive. And this way I have more future-proof options. I take use of 4-channel relay boards to have the ability to cut ground completely between loading circuit (which is smps and has polluted ground) and running circuit. Further I use CC/CV DC-DC converters to limit the flowing current when charging the supercaps. This will increase the lifespan of the supercaps by a huge factor. I opted for a seperate DC-DC converter on each psu, this gives me more options, and ability to exactly adjust voltage and current for each supercaps psu.

Cheers


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## abartels (May 2, 2017)

Before I forget to mention, I have one of those ucaps psu's, Bballas's design, connected to my Allo.com Kali reclocker.
Kali reclocker has LDO's on board, so it is possible to start at a higher voltage level and have some increased running time.

Kali runs 900 seconds, 15 minutes, on one load of 2 supercaps!!!!!!! Voltage drops from 5V to 3.5V
I use a max of 5Volts to load the supercaps, but could go upto 5.4Volts. The reason why I'm NOT doing this
is because of lifespan supercaps. If not loading them to their max, they will live much longer.
But, imagine if I double the supercaps, it can run for half an hour on one load!!!

Last week a friend of mine came over to listen, he's an audio designer and knows my revealing system very well.
When starting listening, after 3 or 4 seconds he said: I don't need more time to listen to conclude this is MUCH better. But, during the evening I noticed his face, his facial expression was one of disbelieve or even maybe some sort of jealous expression. I know him for about all my life, together we had an audio company 25 years ago (dac's) and together we experienced a lot in the audio world. It seemed he didn't have heard this kind of sound before, ever..... even with his newly designed high-end pre and power amps......

And, I must admit, it really is very very good.

So, Balazs, I have to thank you a lot for pointing me into this direction. I never could have dreamed this much of improvement, and, I must say, I really think this kind of powersupply, if you can use it in your design, I am VERY sure it is the absolute best available. There doesn't exist anything that performs better than supercaps / ultracaps.

So, now have to go to a dinner party, and maybe this evening I will start configuring DC-DC converters and timers.
And maybe..........

Cheers guys!

Alex


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## abartels

Today I finally connected the ultracap psu's to my dac. I took a few hours, but the result is great!
It outperforms my whole "Monster psu-build".

There still is a lot improvement to come because of burn-in, but cold out of the box it already is much better than the extensively build psu's based on R-Cores, Lt3042 and EMI/RFI filters, which already sounded heavenly.

We will have to wait another 2 weeks to burn-in before I will write my final findings about this psu's.

I managed to run my dac for 10 minutes on the ultracaps before it switches to a new loaded set of ucaps.
So, only once per 10 minutes it switches!

First listening impressions:

Very detailed and musical, very airy and the lows again are much tighter and powerful.
I can hear it is not at its best now, but that will change the next two weeks


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## bballas

Great job!!!!!
I'm ordered 8pcs r2r dam1 balanced,become tomorrow.So many options here,i want to trial.
example battery-u cap combinations,with-without regulator analog-digital,
different output stages,shorter i2s silver wire,output transformers,...........


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## bballas

Balanced detonator 1.8v version


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## bballas




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## abartels

Nice job!!!

Still waiting for my 8x DA-M1 modules to arrive.......


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## bballas

abartels said:


> Nice job!!!
> 
> Still waiting for my 8x DA-M1 modules to arrive.......



Kingwa testing with your Dibao output transformers.Haha!!


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## bballas (May 18, 2017)

Dibao vs. Lundahl


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## bballas




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## bballas




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## abartels

could be very possible,,, last Saturday status of shipment at DHL website was "Shipment information received"
Today, 6 days later, it says: "Picked up",,,,, delivery will be on Monday.


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## bballas

take it easy.....welcome,   too china!


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## abartels

bballas said:


>



Nice job!


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## rellik (May 19, 2017)

I cant wait for the washer machines to start making the air raid siren from Silent Hill. Sorry off topic.

Could you post some product codes etc. on those HV Series Aerogel caps? They look cool (deep) yet confusing.


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## bballas

https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a230r.1.14.82.zAxNBh&id=523128593915&ns=1&abbucket=20#detail


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## rellik

Nice, shipped from china.


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## abartels

Cooper - Bussmann - Eaton HV series HV1860-2R7-107R

And, here's a very nice and handy ultracapacitor calculator 

http://www.circuits.dk/calculator_capacitor_discharge.htm


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## abartels

And, always be VERY careful to buy capacitors in China. You never know what you buy. Since some Chinese sellers do like it a lot to copy components, and even selling NON EXISTANT components, be careful!

We don't know if these Cooper - Bussmann - Eaton ultracapacitors are genuin, but they perform good.

See these, they look a real bargain, 16V - 83F modules with protection circuit:





https://world.taobao.com/item/534271110685.htm?spm=a312a.7700714.0.0.SEAB7Q#detail

These are so called Samwha Green-Cap EDLC(DB) 2.7V 500F ultracapacitors. The plastic sleeve does look different from original Samwha Green-Cap EDLC(DB).
And, after a little of investigation, there's even a certificate number on those ultracapacitors, MH47765, which leads us to:





Which tells us the series are within the 100F to 400F range.

Taking a further look at the current datasheet, it says: it's a snap-in type with 2 leads,
and the maximum capacity is 400F.





What the above seller on TaoBao is trying to sell is absolutely not clear to me, it's a so called Green-Cap -DB series from Samwha,
with a capacity of 500F and with 5-leads snap-in. This ultracapacitor is NON EXISTENT, at least, it is NOT a Samwha ultracapacitor.

This leads us into some sort of uncertainty, because we don't know what we are buying. It could be some sort of rubbish ultracap with
a capacity of 50F instead of 500F, and with a very high ESR value.

This sort of sellers make it absolutely uninteresting for us to buy components in China. It's a very sad thing they don't understand this.


A few weeks ago I found some very interesting KEMET capacitors, to recap my poweramplifier. Those KEMET's are of VERY high quality,
and I wanted to use them, especially they were affordable.

After some searching on the manufacturers website I found out the Chinese KEMET capacitors, rated 200V 20.000UF, were NON EXISTANT.
That KEMET series was starting at 400V-DC and NOT 200V-DC as showed on the Chinese versions.

Maybe we have to keep in mind:  If something looks to good to be true, it IS to good to be true......

Be aware of this!!!


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## bballas

4x1.8v ,
8x3.3v ultracaps feeding 8 DAm1 modules.Trial this weekend.


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## abartels

That is great news!!!

I am also very curious if 8x 3.3V feeding soundwise is better than 4x 3.3V feeding, combining cold and hot channels of xlr, because they need exact same voltage level to play 100% synchronously.
Maybe first try with 4x 3.3V feeding?

Good luck!!!

Regards,
Alex


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## bballas

8x, because one relay modules 4 rails,2x4=8
that's why 8x .hahaha


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## bballas

Dam1 use common ground(negative)
use switch here,after  full charge turn on the switch,trallala...


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## abartels

Any news on your test setup with 8x DA-M1 modules?


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## bballas

yes,little burned in yesterday,sound get better.Only 20 hours now,i like this sound so much.

nos7
-many recordings terrible
-some recordings really good-magical-so not real !!
-bass section not detailed,unclear,

8xdam1 balanced ,12rail ultracap power,Dibao output transformers
-almost all recordings great!!!
-Lifelike Sound
-all parameter balanced,good to listen


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## abartels

Sounds very promising Balazs 

Hope I can build mine real soon!

Cheers


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## bballas




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## abartels

Looking great!


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## abartels

Btw, did you cut the pins from all the voltage rails between the DA-M1 modules?

If not, it is best to parallel the ultracaps and switch ground with relays too.


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## bballas (Jun 4, 2017)

I cant accept bigger size dac this time.The mobility and SQ same important.I Can use 12v 20ah battery if are you afraid of ground noise.


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## abartels (Jun 5, 2017)

The 8x DA-M1 modules are build with 4x 2-push-pull sets of DA-M1.
The 4 Push-Pull sets have their voltage rails connected together with long pins, so, 1x push-pull set only uses 1x 3.3V-A + 1x 3.3V-D + 1.8V-D
That is 2x 3.3V + 1x 1.8V per push-pull set (of 2 DA-M1 modules).

So, what you need is 8x 3.3V ultracap psu's, and 4x 1.8V ultracap psu's

That way you've got balanced powerrails (meaning: exactly identical Voltage level) for each DA-M1 module in push-pull set

So in total 12 psu's needed, with a total of 48 relays for the psu's.

Talking about relays, I measured mine, and I am NOT pleased with the quality of those relays.
In the beginning I had to replace one relay which had about 80 Ohms contact resistance which ruins your ESR completely.
I replaced it, and measured all other relays. The others all measured below 0.1 Ohm.

After a few weeks of burn-in I measured again, and guess????

One relay has 78 Ohms of contact resistance, and 7 others have contact resistance above 1 Ohm!!!!!

They are rubbish and unusable for this kind of design.

Please, be smart and design your own relay board. It only takes relays and NO other electronics because we do switch them ALL TOGETHER at the same time.
I investigated a lot, and it seems the Fujitsu-Takamisawa relay NA5W-K is a very good one, with bifurcated contacts and a max of 50 mOhm contact resistance.
They can handle a switching current of 2 amps, which in our design is more then needed.

https://world.taobao.com/item/531838781101.htm?spm=a312a.7700714.0.0.hUzxsO#detail


Hope this helps!


Cheers,

Alex


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## abartels

About ground noise, we use DC-DC converters, which in term are switching powersupplies with a switching frequency about 300kHz.

It doesn't matter how you feed the DC-DC converters, if you DON'T cut ground, there will be traveling groundnoise of about 300kHz thru ALL the psu-lines to the dac.

It isn't of any importance if you can hear it in YOUR set, it's evident that there IS a polluted 300kHz signal in your design which flows thru EVERY psu and EVERY DA-M1 module.
Maybe it is VERY noticeable on other sets, like mine. As a test I connected some groundwires from charging ucaps to running ucaps, and the result was a less musical sounding dac.

Just my 2 cents...

Cheers!

Alex


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## rellik (Jun 5, 2017)

One question, Will using a bunch of low voltage caps in series to gain voltage rating eventually fail due to localized potential spikes?

I ask because I am using a similar technique for a B+ supply rail and really don't want to mess it up. Regardless, I don't like HF noise as your previous post mentioned. Sadly I cannot shunt the junctions as the whole freggin thing is now trapped in gel.


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## abartels (Jun 5, 2017)

Maxwell advises if putting more than 3 ultracaps in series, you need balancing circuit.
This is because not all cells are 100% equal, and if charging at max voltage, one could die because of overvoltage.

On TaoBao or Aliexpress are many balancing boards available, or even complete ultracaps modules with 6 ultracaps in series.
They are mounted on active balancing boards.


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## bballas

New back panel created...


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## abartels

See this for some interesting facts about relays:


https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/lks-audio-mh-da003.745032/page-48#post-13532729

https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/lks-audio-mh-da003.745032/page-48#post-13546294

Cheers!

Alex


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## bballas

-transformers sound much worse than rusted relays+ultracaps
-LPS1 vs crappy relay+caps A-B tested,SQ same!
-My detonator dac sound amazing for me

Cheers!
Balazs


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## abartels

Hi Balazs,

Yes i know it still sounds fabulous, but it is better to use high quality relays.

You have detonator dac completely finished? Have some pics? 

Cheers,
Alex


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## bballas

finished,but ...never finished  haha
dac side stable,charge ,caps side stable.Sound also stable.
input side not so stable.gd i2s lvds with tanly usb and lks amanero don't want work.sound just shhrwrekrhr
with gd amanero works fine,but I sent outside this board yesterday.


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## bballas

wck,mck in lvds its not sclk.Somebody can help?


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## bballas




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## bballas

-No matter how grungy, noisy and inconsistent the AC coming out of your wall happens to be, you will never hear anything less than utterly quiet, perfectly detailed sound.
-Absolutely Zero AC hum and noise for a completely “black” background from which the subtlest musical information emerges with perfect clarity.
-No need for expensive power conditioners, “audiophile” power cords or dedicated power lines.
- Super high current supply – as there is no AC to DC conversion inside the component,  no transformers or bridge rectifiers that choke instantaneous current and make noise. You will enjoy greater dynamics with tight, precise bass response along with more open and extended treble.
-Lifespan rated at 1,000,000 cycles (compare that to 2,000 cycles for the best Lithium battery topologies). You will never need to replace the ultracapacitors and will enjoy a lifetime of use.
-Maintenance free.
-Cleanest, high-current DC power supply yet!


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## bballas

12 rail u caps work perfectly.....


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## bballas

Source test
-win10,Ao,Hq player,Li-ion batt,singxer f1 u caps
                       Vs
Consonance X5(Rpi2)Ucaps 5v, i2s out

X5 won.
better microdetails


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## abartels

That is good news, and, even with standard crappy I2S-direct out from RPI, can you imagine how it can sound with isolator + FIFO reclocker ?


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## bballas

I cant .bcose rpi i2s don't want work anymore.i use now xingxer f1 with  u caps.


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## coinmaster (Jul 3, 2017)

God damn it. I may be obligated to build one of these. I like how you converted your NFB-1 chassis into a housing for this DAC.
Coincidentally I destroyed my NFB-1 in an accident while prototyping one of my amplifiers.
Firstly, how does this dac sound in comparison with the NFB-1?
Secondly, is there some kind of schematic or instructional guide for this dac of yours?


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## bballas

"Firstly, how does this dac sound in comparison with the NFB-1?"
My great sounding nos 7 on SALE.Disassembled nfb1 components somewhere in the corner.
sound more lifelike than other dacs.
some schematic...later...


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## coinmaster

Now that I think about it, my insatiable desire for design perfection might allow me to only choose the new ES9038 chip as an acceptable dac option.
You seem to claim that these super cap supplies are the bees knees. Have you tried comparing them to super regs?


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## bballas

super regs mean ultra low noise regulator?
yes,lt 3042+ultracaps sound also good.i dont think better,maybe little bit worse or just different.
who knows with new sabre witch combination better .
one thing is sure,trafos,diodes,ldos sound much worse


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## coinmaster

> super regs mean ultra low noise regulator


No I mean like a super regulator. As in Walt Jungs super regulator.


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## bballas

uptone audio LPS1-best psu this time
other hiper super .....no comment


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## abartels

Balazs meant to say:

The Ultracaps do sound superior to all other psu's, even Class-A (Shunt regs) from AGD, LT3042 based psu's and others.
LPS-1 is somewhat on par, but theoratically should sound worse because of the use of regulators AFTER the ultracaps
which destroys ESR and buffer capacity, and it limits current. The used ultracaps can deliver 63 Amps pulse, and 11 Amps continously!!!!!!
And, don't forget, if powering a dac-chip, you need to power EVERY voltage rail seperately, so, if you wanted to use LPS-1,
you would need a bunch of them, depending on the structure of your dac-chip.


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## coinmaster

A super reg is in a league of its own. It can have an output impedance of less than 100 micro ohms throughout the audio range.


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## bballas

chip,stages,analog,digital,left,right disturbing each other.
super reg,ldo,choke,trafo don't improve this problem.


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## abartels

@coinmaster 

Yes, I know.

Sorry, not to be picky, but:

Not sure if you are "the kind of guy" who is into measurements only, or more the "listen with your ears" guy, I hope the latter, but since you promote 9038 Pro I'm affraid you prefer very low noise and distortion figures above real world characteristics.
Listen to R2R with high(er) THD+N figures, or to top of the bill tube amps with lots of THD, and compare them with DS dacs or top of the bill solid state amps, I'm very confident that you would choose the R2R / Tube gear in a BLIND comparison.

Just my 2 cents...

Back on topic:

An infinite PSRR (mostly) is more important than lowest impedance. influence of all stages is ZERO with ultracaps.

I would say, just build one simple ultracap psu, if reading the thread you can see how it is build, on what kind of design it is based, in a nutshell:

1- Using a simple laptop adapter
2- Using a DC-DC converter (CV/CC type) and set desired voltage and current
3- Make a simple relay design which switches between full and empty ultracaps (be sure to choose the best relays for this design, maybe paladium contacts are the best, thanks to @b0bb his insights)
4- Use a timer to switch to full ultracaps before the discharging ultracaps reach the lower voltage threshold.

Thats all.

Then, just listen to it, and compare it to the best superreg you have. Be sure to let the ultracaps psu "burn-in" twice as long as you should burn-in normal buffer caps (1 set op caps is used half the time, so takes double the time to burn-in)

Have fun


----------



## abartels (Jul 4, 2017)

New find, and only about 200Km from my home..........


http://transient-audio.nl/DAC_TWO.html

The modules, DAC One and DAC Two aren't seperate available, but there's a evaluationboard available which inludes 2x DAC One modules.
I did send them an email today for pricing, very curious what they will cost!






Quote:

*DAC TWO*
The Dac Two is a modern high precision  dac and is fully pin compatible with our DAC One module. Based on our "forward correction technology" the DAC Two is probably the best R2R ladder dac module ever made.
Due to this technology a real 24 bits performance is realized and probably the most easy way to build up a converter system which can meet the best systems today in terms of sound quality.

Architecture
The Dac Two is build up around two fast and very accurate R2R ladder networks. To match these ladder networks to real audio formats,  fast FPGA logic is added and makes the dac compatible with RJ24 and I2S standards.
The Dac Two is physically split up in two sections . The digital section is running on 5 Volt DC  while the analog section is running on max.  symmetrical +/- 12 Volts.
Both positive or negative reference voltages can be used and gives a fully symmetrical voltage swing. The Dac Two can handle real 24  bit formats and brings linearity down to -144dB.







Quote:

*EVA*
The EVA mother board is designed for evaluation of our dac modules. The board is self supporting and can be used for coaxial S/PDIF signals up to 192 kHz sampling rate.
By removing three jumpers the board can  be used in conjunction with one of our DAI interface boards which gives you fully control but also can be used with other digital sources .
Digital formats like RJ16,RJ24 and I2S can be used depends on jumper settings on the board.  On demand special versions can be made. Please ask our development dept. for more information.
As standard the EVA will be delivered including the Dac One modules.


Maybe this is a very good contender for building a very good R2R DAC powered by ultracaps? 

It needs 5VDC and +/-12VDC but consumes only 2.5W in total, so probably a good contender for feeding with Ultracaps.

EDIT:

Metrum Acoustics uses them, see:
http://www.metrum-acoustics.com/Pavane.html

Modules probably are too expensive for our DIY projects 

Cheers


----------



## coinmaster (Jul 4, 2017)

> Not sure if you are "the kind of guy" who is into measurements only, or more the "listen with your ears" guy, I hope the latter, but since you promote 9038 Pro I'm affraid you prefer very low noise and distortion figures above real world characteristics.


I'm a "listen with my ears" guy but in terms of design I can't design blindly, I need to have some kind of design parameters because there is no way to know what method will produce the best sound.

 When I design I go for the lowest distortion possible throughout my design, then I add in distortion after. There are a near infinite ways to add distortion so I think it's better to design with the intention of lowest possible distortion as a first measure, then tweak in distortion afterword.
I always aim for both euphony and realism at the same time but that is hard to achieve when you have untamed distortion throughout the system.


----------



## bballas

Mike Wtb :
"listening to the MSB Select II, after also living with the Trinity dac previously, it seems that using a dac which is able to eliminate any analog output stage (the dac produces sufficient voltage itself) allows for a more direct connection to the music. which is what I'm hearing and more closely approaches the analog character (the Select II more so than the Trinity dac)."


I know what you talk about  Mike. Without output stage+Without transformers+without regulators=more analog character


----------



## bballas




----------



## bballas

Noisy Pc removed.
Allo sparky usbridge/ucap1-short A B usb adapter(silver)- uptone iso regen/ucap2 -short usb A B adapter(silver) - singxer F1 /ucap3 -i2s - Dam1 R2r 8pcs balanced/12 rail ucap powered(Detonator Dac) without
any unnecessary stages,ldos,inputs,outputs,dsp,upsampler,downsampler......
Simple the BEST!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## abartels (Aug 4, 2017)

Good to hear this sounds good, bad to hear Kali doesn't work with DAC in Master-mode,,, this info wasn't available at there site in the beginning,,,,,,,,,,,,

I almost received all the components needed to start my 8x DA-M1 project, just waiting for 16P-DIP sockets for mounting all the Omron relays.

Tomorrow I will start project. It probably will take 1 to 2 weeks to accomplish (I have summer vacation now)

I will use:

8x DA-M1 R2R modules
1x Ian's FIFO 2 reclocker
1x Ian's DualXO 2 board with NDK NZ2520SD clocks (can exchange in the future)
1x Ian's Isolatorboard between FIFO 2 and DualXO 2 board
1x Ian's RPI-Isolator board
1x RPI 2 or 3 (will test which one sounds best) with latest audiophile PicorePlayer version
2x Dibao DB1736 output transformers (improved version of Lundahl LL1527)
2x Valab Rhodium plated Tellurium Copper RCA's
** Will use SE for the moment, my Pre-amp is SE only.


8-UltraCap psu's 3.3V with a total of 64 ultracaps
4-Ultracap psu's 1.8V with a total of 24 ultracaps

1-Ultracap psu 5V for Ian's FIFO II reclocker with a total of 4 ultracaps
1-Ultracap psu 3.3V for Ian's DualXO board with a total of 8 ultracaps
1-Ultracap psu 5V for Ian's RpiIsolator with a total of 4 ultracaps

** I am planning to use a total of 104 UltraCaps, but could be that I need more for a longer runtime. I prefer a runtime of AT LEAST 5 minutes for one UltraCap load **
** Since nobody did ANY measurements and calculations on drawn amperage from DA-M1 modules, I need to test and calculate all myself during the build **
** For future purpose I will share the measurements for all other interested diy-guys **

48x Omron G5V-2-12VDC relays
48x DIP16 precision IC sockets for mounting Omron Relays

1x DC-DC converter CV/CC at 3.3V
1x DC-DC converter CV/CC at 1.8V
1x DC-DC converter CV/CC at 5V
1x DC-DC converter CV/CC at 12V
1x Timer-relay-board
1x 19V-DC-9.6A adapter

And, of course lots of pcb's, wiring and connection materials, wooden panels, copper tape and a full aluminium enclosure.

Project will be based on RPI2/3 with AudioPhile version of PicorePlayer, which connects to LMS 7.9 server.
Final product will be an Ultra-High-End Network streamer which, in the future, will be expanded with several other input formats, such as SPDIF and I2S so it can act as a standalone DAC.

RPI2/3 has an Isolator board (HAT) on top (from Ian Canada) which outputs a galvanic isolated I2S and GND signal to the FIFO 2 reclocker.
FIFO 2 reclocker has an Isolator board connected to it on the output-side, and Isolator board has a DualXO 2 board connected to its output-side.

I2S signals from DualXO 2 board directly will feed the DA-M1 modules. Wiring will be as short as possible to keep jitter at a minimum.

All needed power will be provided by Ultracaps, except for RPI itself, this will be a low noise switching supply. Maybe this one will change into an Ultracap psu in a later stage.

Will keep you guys posted 

Cheers!
Alex


----------



## bballas

"Good to hear this sounds good, bad to hear Kali doesn't work with DAC in Master-mode,,,"
if I pulled out-in the sclk,sound come without noise or crap,but couple of seconds big big distortion in the middle section.


----------



## abartels

Hi guys,

Yesterday I started to disassemble my MonsterDAC. That really did HURT 
Since my AK4495 chip died, I had to make a choice, revive the AK4495 and invest in a new DAC-board, or disassemble the whole dac (=Streamer), and reuse all the components.
Well, I decided to reuse all components. And so it happened.....

This was my initial MonsterDAC (in fact, a MonsterStreamer, based on RPI+Ian Canada FIFO2 kit+ PicorePlayer

 

After reading this thread, contacting Balazs and ordering some stuf, this happened:

  

Sound was AMAZING, never heard anything better!!! Until, my AK4495SEQ-chip died.
First I thought it was my own fault, maybe it got overvoltage, but after good measuring, and thinking on the past I came to the conclusion that I must have bought a defective one.
From the beginning on my AK4495SEQ drew much more current at Left VREF in comparison to the Right VREF. Left channel in fact drew a factor 5 from it's normal current draw
in the whitepapers,,,,,, So, probably that is why the Left channel of the chip died. Very sad 

So, yesterday evening I started to disassemble my beloved MonsterDAC:

      

I got left with a bare enclosure.....

I put in a new wooden board, but I will have to remove this one because all stuff doesn't fit in enclosure. Will put copper on bare chassis without wood.

After disassembling the MonsterDAC I started with assembling RPI+Ian Canada IsolatorPI  AND starting to configure the Ian Canada FIFO II kit, in a manner it will fit ABOVE the RPI with IsolatorPI.


----------



## abartels (Aug 4, 2017)

This morning I started to disassemble all the UltraCap psu's so I could re-use all the components. After accomplishing this, I started to build the first UltraCap PSU for the new


*ΛΓienStreamer*

It needs 4 of these UltraCap PSU's, each one consisting of 2x 3.3V and 1x 1.8V

             

This took me a few hours to build. I decided to use Omron G5V2-12VDC relays. They have two sets of switching contacts (bifurcated) which I will put in parallel.
Initial MAXIMUM contact resistance is 50mOhm (0.050 Ohm). In parallel this will result in 25mOhm which for this application is good enough for me.
I have some used ones and some new ones, they all measure around 20 to 30 mOhms, so this will resulting in 15 to 20 mOhms which is great.

In case of a relay will get defective, which I think will not happen that fast (max switching voltage for supplies is 3.45V at a max amperage of 500mA devided by 2 - because of parallel switching pairs - results in 250mA draw switching current.
These relays can switch 2 Amps at 30VDC, so I wouldn't bother about 250mA at 3.45V..... But, JUST in case one gets defective, I took use of precision DIP16 IC sockets, the guilded ones, so I can put the relays in sockets.
This way I can replace them very easily, JUST IN CASE 

After fetching me a cup of coffee I started to build Nr.2

  

Then I put in all components which are needed to accomplish my *ΛΓienStreamer
*
It will look like this:



 

 As you can see, the enclosure for my *ΛΓienStreamer *barely can fit all the components needed. This design takes use of 120 UltraCaps.
All 3.3V PSU's for DA-M1 modules (8 in total) have 100F buffer, all 1.8V PSU's for DA-M1 modules (4 in total) have 400F buffer.

Two 5V PSU's have 100F buffer each (for FIFO2 and IsolatorPI), one 5V PSU has 50F buffer (DualXO II board) and finally one 3.3V PSU has 50F buffer (for NDK NZ2520SD they draw 6mA only...)

I'll keep you guys posted on any updates about my upcoming

*ΛΓienStreamer*

Cheers 

Alex


----------



## bballas

cool!!!!


----------



## abartels (Aug 5, 2017)

Progress today of *ΛΓienStreamer*



 



Tomorrow is another day 

Cheers,
Alex


----------



## abartels

Todays progress of *ΛΓienStreamer



 
*
Cheers!


----------



## bballas

you need drink something!!!!!


----------



## abartels

bballas said:


> you need drink something!!!!!



Don't worry, I definitely did


----------



## abartels

Todays progress of  *ΛΓienStreamer




 

 
*
Many small steps finally leed to one giant leep for mankind 


Cheers 

Alex


----------



## abartels

Todays progress #2 of  *ΛΓienStreamer*
*


 


 
*
Cheers 

Alex


----------



## abartels (Aug 28, 2017)

Progress of  *ΛΓienStreamer
*
As you can see in the 8th to 12th pictures, Murphy visited me last weekend, just after I almost finished everything. Measurements showed faults in 2nd banks of 5 psu's,,,,,
I didn't notice this before because all banks started charging,but not all second banks..... And, there were 3 soldering joints of the 2500 or so, that weren't 100%.
This meant I had to disassemble the whole streamer............................. I wasn't amused...............

Finally, yesterday evening I finished all (hardware) work, as you can see.

Still need to clean enclosure, as you probably noticed already, hahahaha

For now, Ian Canada's IsolatorPI and FIFO II kit doesn't work in combination with PicorePlayer 3.21 I have to investigate this, and probably I have to go back to version 3.02 or so.
I had troubles before configuring newer PCP versions with I2S / Ian's stuff, hope I can solve all again. If not, I will divert to Allo isolator + Kali, but I really hope I can get Ian's stuff to work since it really is best SQ fifo available!!!


*
                         



 
*
As soon as it's working I'll post a first listening impression!!


Cheers!!!

@Balazs :

Ioan from Allo.com told me those DA-M1 modules are NOT master modules, they act as slave and could be used to connect to Kali!!!

I suppose you connected something the wrong way?
Maybe you configured Isolator HAT as Master instead of Slave??

Cheers!

Alex


----------



## abartels

Hi guys,

ΛΓienStreamer is running for 9 days continuously now without any interruptions. Sound Quality surpassed MonsterDAC 2 days ago, but it still needs burn-in time and improves day by day!!

First impressions from 2 days ago:

Dead-quiet black background, very natural and life like sounding. Just everything MonsterDAC had in it, but just B E T T E R  

Will wait a few days before writing a review!

Cheers,
Alex


----------



## bballas

Great Alex!!!

What I'm thinking now after burn-in and improved usb chain (with total 15 pcs u cap power supply)?
Source materials has bad quality. Some phenomenal.Not much.


----------



## abartels

ΛΓienStreamer is running for 21 days continuously now with only a few short interruptions.

Still, even after 500 hours of burn-in, I can hear improvements now and then. It seems R2R needs a very long burn-in period.


How does  ΛΓienStreamer perform in comparison to my UltraCap powered AK4495SEQ MonsterDAC?



 


Well, since both are Ultracap powered, and both have all voltage rails separately powered, it is a very interesting comparison which leads directly to AK4495 vs DA-M1 R2R 

There's only ONE other difference between the two which we have to keep in mind, and that is the output stage. AK4495 has discrete FET output stage, and DA-M1 R2R has a very High Quality output transformer instead.
I can't compare between the fet stages and the output transformers, so we must keep this in mind.

To start with, I was very fond of my MonsterDAC. From the beginning, the first build, which was based on 10x R-Core, 11x EMI/RFI filters and all seperate LT3042 based psu's, it sounded very open and its tonality was VERY lifelike.
After upgrading to Ultracaps, all just went better, a huge improvement I must say. Since the Ultracap upgrade I couldn't imagine any DAC could sound better at all, have better tonality or other aspects.

Hmm,, upgrading to DA-M1 R2R modules made me wonder, hahahaha

I must say, my heavily modded AK4495SEQ-pcb (with 6800uF caps on VREF, which makes AK44xx have VERY good tonality and tightness in lower frequencies) has exactly the same sound character as DA-M1 modules.
At least, in the way I powered AK4495SEQ and the DA-M1 modules. No differences at all in tonality. I must say, the guys at AKM REALLY did a VERY good job!!!!!

Now, how is  ΛΓienStreamer performing?

Well, to take the short route, everything just is better, more lifelike, the magical word is: R E A L I S M
The performance is, yes, Alienlike, very very open, very visual, realistic in the best sense of the word.

Soundstage projection:
Another thing I immediately noticed was its rock solid sound stage, its pinpoint precision. Voices and instruments aren't "moving on the stage", they are tightly "anchored in concrete".
This is a property, which Delta Sigma dac chips don't inherit. As good as it gets, DS chips tend to "wobble" voices and instruments. The better the implementation the better the precision,
but still, projection is not rock solid. When listening to a very good implemented DS, like my MonsterDAC, this behavior does not get up immediately, until you compare it to a good implemented R2R.
This is were R2R shines too , If something is moving around in the sound stage, it just IS moving around, OR the sound engineer has been tampering around..... 

About dynamics:
A test yesterday concluded that all psu's for DA-M1 can power the 8x DA-M1 for about 4 hours without any problems!!!! It is very obvious there isn't any limit at delivering current or such.
All 1.8V psu's can deliver 11 Amps continuously, and more than 60 Amps pulse. All 3.3V psu's can deliver 22 Amps continuously, and more than 120 Amps pulse.
Voltage levels staying really really stable, without taking use of voltage regulators or such... Maybe it is because of this, not sure, but dynamics are as realistic as tonality as presentation.

I still do switch every ten minutes between the banks because psu's for DualXO II board draws too much current and I don't want relays switching at different times.
If I would create a more powerful psu for DualXO II  I could handle a VERY long runtime, even up to 5 hours if configured more tightly. But for now, a runtime of 10 minutes is OK with me.

SQ recordings:
Sometimes recordings which always sounded bad do sound very good, while others which sounded always good, do still sound very good but not better then that.

There are exceptional good recordings which always sounded very good and now really excel, like "Muddy Waters - Folk Singer" and many others.
Mostly live recordings, and especially unplugged recordings sound best, but studio works like all the Yello cd's, or the Boris Blank cd's, do sound very good too.
Of course there are many others too.

Because of the very realistic sounding albums like the "Muddy Waters" one, the difference between those and "normal" sounding ones can be HUGE.
Sometimes this can lead to disappointments because of our expectations, and sometimes this can lead to surprises too 

Future:
For me it seems to be a sort of an end-station, at least it seems so for now. There aren't any discrete R2R modules available who perform better, at least no DIY ones.
I would love to build an   ΛΓienStreamer based on Transient DAC2 modules, but they aren't available to the DIY market. Only OEM manufacturers can buy those.
That said, there's playing something in my mind to start a small business and manufacture Transient DAC2 based, Ultracap powered   ΛΓienStreamers, but I am
not sure if that will happen ever.....

Conclusion:
In my opinion, discrete R2R based dac's are THE future. Nothing better available until today. Not sure of the Mola Mola dac though, I never heard this one.
About powering low power consuming and low voltage stages: Ultracaps are the best of the best. If needing higher voltage, it is rather complicated to manage,
but below 8.1V (3 cells in series) or 5.4V (2 cells in series) or 2.7V (1 cell) it is very good doable to power a few hundred of milliamps.

A big T H U M B S   U P   for @Balazs who started this thread and who pointed me in the right direction!!!!! Thanks man!!!!!

Cheers!
Alex


----------



## bballas

_*Great Alex!!!!!!*_
*My short burn in periods(2 hours per day ) little sucks(slow).
Example,a  week ago the sound accurate,middle strong,forward, but not so soft,emo,deep, or silky.
Now,just amazing!!!!! I got everything.deep,wide,airy,lifelike,separated,detailed,silky,holographic......
I never thought my gears  So GOOD!!!!!!
Much more recordings became really enjoyable.60-70-80`s hits also!!!!

CHEERS!
*


----------



## bballas




----------



## abartels

lots of ucap supplies needed for usb stuff...


----------



## bballas

no.sparky board one big3amper,iso regen 8v,and singxer f1 5volt


----------



## bballas

i think only you and me read this topic!haha!!!


----------



## abartels

yes, I am afraid we do, hahahahaha

Stupid people


----------



## gstew

abartels said:


> yes, I am afraid we do, hahahahaha
> 
> Stupid people



Definitely not true!

Greg in Missisippi


----------



## abartels

gstew said:


> Definitely not true!
> 
> Greg in Missisippi




Hi Greg,

Yesssss, we're not alone 

Did you build some ultracap based psu's yourself by now? How are your findings?


 ΛΓienStreamer is on a completely other level than all I experienced in the last 40 years or so.

Compare it with top-of-the-bill (100K+) analog sets, and add digital resolution and dynamics.....


If you didn't try it buy now, please do so, you wont regret it! Try to avaoid any kind of regs, just use enough F to keep all stable.



Regards,

Alex in Maastricht - the Netherlands


----------



## motberg

abartels said:


> yes, I am afraid we do, hahahahaha
> 
> Stupid people


NOT TRUE! 
You guys go into hibernation every so often (I guess during break-in periods), then pop back again a couple weeks later with 10 kilos of supercaps wired together and rockin' the house! 

Anyway... congratulations.. especially the DIY power supply application is very interesting.. thanks..


----------



## DASt

Me to here!!  It is great pleasure to look on Alex job. As always, 100% finished devices with best possible ideas. 
Your modded MX-U8 beat Berkeley Alpha USB,  i tried it twice  )).
Hope some day some one help you start you business. 
With you brains and bravery everything is pissible!!! 

With best regards,  Dmitry.


----------



## abartels

motberg said:


> NOT TRUE!
> You guys go into hibernation every so often (I guess during break-in periods), then pop back again a couple weeks later with 10 kilos of supercaps wired together and rockin' the house!
> 
> Anyway... congratulations.. especially the DIY power supply application is very interesting.. thanks..




Hahahaha, sorry Tom, I didn't meant YOU, I know you are following us very closely 


Cheers


----------



## abartels

DASt said:


> Me to here!!  It is great pleasure to look on Alex job. As always, 100% finished devices with best possible ideas.
> Your modded MX-U8 beat Berkeley Alpha USB,  i tried it twice  )).
> Hope some day some one help you start you business.
> With you brains and bravery everything is pissible!!!
> ...




Hey Dmitry,

Long time no see! Very nice to hear from you!!! You are way too kind 

Glad my modded MX-U8 still is in your possession and still sounds very good! It had to travel a lot, first from China to Maastricht - The Netherlands, and then to Moscow - Russia!
And yes, in between there happened a lot with my beloved MX-U8  VERY glad you still have it and appreciate it's sound and build quality!

You never know, maybe I will start my own business, as I did before in 1991. Audio business is not an easy one, though I'm playing with the thought to build UltraCap powered
streamer/dac with Transient DAC Two modules. In that case I need to start a business again. Transient, or "ALL Engineering" or "Metrum acoustics", they only sell to OEM.

About ΛΓienStreamer, it still needs burn-in....... Last weekend had a few demo sessions which weren't as supposed. Saturday afternoon sound went kind of dull. This is
behavior I am aware of during burn-in. Need more time,,,,, But, unbelievable, that this happened after around 600 hours of burn-in. This is the first time I noticed something like this.
Maybe it is because of the silver RCA's I used, Silver tends to need MUCH more burn-in than copper. Not sure though.

The people listening to the ΛΓienStreamer last weekend all came to the same conclusion that in terms of 3D placement, it was UNHEARD of. Just at the top-end it needed opening again...

We will wait for that to happen 


Cheers!


----------



## bunkbail

I just binge-reading this whole thread, it's so enjoyable although I only understand 10% of them. I find that these DIY thingy are so cool. Keep up the great work @bballas @abartels !!


----------



## abartels

bunkbail said:


> I just binge-reading this whole thread, it's so enjoyable although I only understand 10% of them. I find that these DIY thingy are so cool. Keep up the great work @bballas @abartels !!



We will


----------



## bballas

Sound get dull!!! yes,dac dc 0.5v magnetized the output transformers(Alex tell me)  I think this is the best config,without couple cap or any extra stages.
Now I listen other dam1 modules 4 pcs single ended,with solen couple caps,toshiba j fet basic stages improve in out resistances.powered 4 lt 3042,2x5v u cap psu for master power.
sound almost the same ????? small diffrences....or big?
can enjoy!!!important!!!


----------



## bballas




----------



## bballas

big Romaz Dave dac connected directly with speakers,and enjoy it!!!So?everything is possible!!!


----------



## abartels

bballas said:


> big Romaz Dave dac connected directly with speakers,and enjoy it!!!So?everything is possible!!!



What are you trying to tell us? Not understanding this...


----------



## bballas

something dac - speakers,without amp .find this somewhere on C.A or dave forum.
other,
assembled my single ended r2r dac,sound fantastic! old div3 chassis on pic.


----------



## coinmaster

How many thousands of dollars did this build cost you?


----------



## abartels (Oct 10, 2017)

Mine about 2....at least, closer to 3....


----------



## bballas (Oct 10, 2017)

coinmaster said:


> How many thousands of dollars did this build cost you?


some haha.....


----------



## abartels (Oct 10, 2017)

Yeah, Balazs, you are a commercial wonder..... you seem to be some kind of sorcerer to me.....

High quality *NEW* and *UNUSED* 100F 2.7V ultracaps alone do cost $10 each, easily.....







in my case:

120 ultracaps at $9,15 > $1098
64 HQ relays at $4,50> $288
pcb's, screws, standoffs wiring etc: $250
DC/DC converters - timer etc.: $25
Enclosure + plugs/sockets: $120
FIFO II +Isolator + RPI kit: $400
DA-M1 modules: $350
2x 19VDC adapter: $20
Outputtransformers: $100

Adding those it already is more than $2700. *Didn't include shipment and taxes / duties......*
And, a lot of small materials used to assemble all.

And last but not least, about 6 weeks of work in total....


----------



## bballas

uuuppps!


----------



## abartels

I really think if adding EVERY component used, all small parts (like anti vibration grommets etc.), building costs will come close to $3000
And that is materials used ONLY. Keep in mind that if going commercial, you should count assembling costs as well as a few percent profit.........

Also keep in mind that most commercial designs have a factor 5 to 10 between build-cost and end-user price. This makes very clear in what kind
of price range this dac would have to operate.....


Smaller versions with smaller psu's can get cheaper, as do SE versions, or FIFO-less versions with I2S-input only, or USB-input only.


----------



## bunkbail

Have you guys ever heard of LessLoss Echo's End? It uses the $400 Soekris dam1121 single R2R module and retails the whole dac at $5342. Just look at its internals. I mean, what you guys are doing here is far more impressive than this overpriced piece of snake-oil trash.


----------



## abartels

I wasn't aware of the Echo's End, thanks for showing us  The only good thing is the wood he uses, hahahahaha.
Soekris OEM isn't bad at all, but it's nothing special. $5K+ that's a lot of cash...... and indeed WAY overpriced.

Yeah, I am VERY sure our designs do sound a little different 


Cheers 
Alex


----------



## coinmaster

I want to believe this dac is good, the designer in me has a hard time believing that all those super caps can't be simplified with a super-regulator. At the current the dac is running at, that much capacity should be practically pure DC as long as the caps are placed as close as possible whatever it is supplying. But the same thing applies to a super regulator. I don't see the difference other than cost. 
Have you tried using a super regulator instead?


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## abartels

I think I don't overreact when saying that I tried A LOT the last 40 years or so. 


If you can find me a superreg which has an infinite PSRR, and a solution to galvanic isolate that reg's
output from it's input, for example, then I will look into it, promised.........


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## coinmaster (Oct 10, 2017)

40 years-shmorty years, the entire audio electronic industry is lazy and/or stuck in the past.
Technology and understanding has improved yet everyone still uses ancient standards.

I'm not directing that statement at you but the amount years worth of effort means little in a field where most people lack innovation, creativity, understanding, or aren't up to date on the times.

Even over at the diy-audio forums I find myself bored with their creations, it's just the same old stuff.
There's a few people that stick out among the crowd like wavebourne, john broskie, nelson pass, and a few others. Unfortunately they aren't in the official industry, at least not on a scale that they deserve.

I like to think of myself as another that sticks out among the crowd, I've developed amps using out of that put anything I've ever heard on the market to shame at a fraction of the cost.
It's all about being creative and thinking outside the box and actually trying to solve the technical shortcomings of the specific technology you are using to reach a specified goal.

Something most people do not do unfortunately.


You mentioned you desire to start your own company.
I too am looking to start up my own company, maybe we could team up or something 

If people like woo-audio can get away with using ancient designs in shiny cases and still manage to rank in the dough I'm sure we can do it 


In any case super reg does effectively have infinite psrr for any practical use if you do it right.

You're supposed to feed it with a pre-reg, aside from the regulators own psrr the pre-reg makes the entire regulators psrr practically infinite since it's feeding the regulator with pure dc, you could make the ultimate pre-reg with a few of those ultra caps and a cap multiplier, just be careful of the current th
Or if you wanted to go into extreme overkill-land you could use another super reg as a prereg but that's just silly, although I do like my overkill.

Here is an example of the performance at the output of a super reg at 3 amps DC draw and 2 amps of 20khz swing, the impedance should be flat up between 100hz-100khz with a slight increase below 100hz if I recall.
I totally forgot how to run an impedance simulation in LTspice, it's been a while.

keep in mind the higher the current the worse the performance is.
You won't need anywhere near this kind of current draw so the performance will be much better.
I chose this example to show you that even at high currents it performs this well.

The performance can also be improved with faster opamps but then you need to deal with quelling instability.

Green = voltage
Blue = current





The pre-reg in this example has about 4v on ripple on it, I would need quite a bit more parallel capacitance to get raw DC at these currents, but I mean does it really matter? Look at that voltage swing at the output.

The super reg has non existent output impedance in any practical use if you do it right. I'm talkin' low micro ohms.

I don't understand what you mean by galvanic isolation between in the input and output of the reg, just feed it with an appropriate transformer.


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## abartels

Thanks for your interest and explanation Colin. I am aware of the pro's of superregs, I do like the almost none existant output impedance, that's for sure, but that on its own also isn't the holy grail.

Calculations and measurements are very important, but, you do know, as I know, that our ears are very sensitive measurement tools too. Like you described harmonic distortion of tubes,
against IMD or even worse, I really would like you to try these ultracap designs in source devices.

Build it and compare it with your superreg designs. Just listen to the result, and report back. A simple test, a 5V or 3.3V psu, need only 4 ultracaps and some simple electronics, try feeding
an important stage in source device like tcxo's, fifo, dac voltage rails, etc. Listen to it and report back. 

Btw, I myself have 30yo DIY mosfet power and pre amps, nfb, class-A. See link below for the power amp's (smaller) successor....
http://modusaudio.com/spa01.html
The guy behind Modus, Richard, he's a very good friend of mine which designed my power amp and pre amp. With him I started an audio company in the nineties, we had a very good DAC.
Sadly we didn't manage to keep the company up and running......

I am not planning to start a company, I even have some bitter leftovers to process from my last, computer/ICT related company.....
If I am going to start some sort of audio company, it will be very low profile, and probably source-related only.

Do yourself a favor Colin, as an open minded person who is into new designs and thoughts, try those ultracap designs and give them a good audition.


Btw, Richard's words after listening to ΛΓienStreamer

"This is the absolute best 4D sound presentation I have ever heard, that's for sure......."

And that even was with output transformers with magnetized cores


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## bballas

monyo dac inside:


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## coinmaster (Oct 11, 2017)

> Calculations and measurements are very important, but, you do know, as I know, that our ears are very sensitive measurement tools too. Like you described harmonic distortion of tubes,
> against IMD or even worse, I really would like you to try these ultracap designs in source devices.


I agree, the best sounding stuff is usually not the best measured. Unfortunately the amount of ways to build an amp with the design goal of it "sounding good" that isn't based on theory, is infinite.
Which is why I like to set design goals using theory and then tweak in imperfections afterwords. It makes for a more refined design this way anyway.

I would like to try the ultra caps but they are ultra expensive  which is why I was hoping you would try the super-reg so you could tell me how they compare. Believe me when I say I am interested to know if the ultra caps are an improvement.
I still need like $5,000 worth of equipment to officially finish off the R&D of my amplifiers, my desire to avoid proper lab equipment has ended up costing me more then I would have spent otherwise and one-off pcb manufacture is expensive as well.
I can't afford to build your dac at the moment.



> Sadly we didn't manage to keep the company up and running......


Yeah I hear it's difficult for an amplifier company. Thankfully unlike the nineties I have ebay and amazon for initial distribution, websites are easy to make, and I have internet forums and plenty conventions each year to market the product.

I'm keeping my initial expectations low, but I'm hoping the merit of the products will carry itself. I've never heard a big name product that sounds anything close, the entire industry is stuck on old standards. My goal is to hopefully move things forward a little bit.

Other than amplifiers I'm looking into speaker tech as well such as planar/electrostatic hybrid. or more likely ribbon/electrostatic hybrid headphones, which in theory should have merit yet I don't think anyone has done it before.
Also looking into standard ribbon tech because of its obvious advantages although the most likely reason that it is not a commercial headphone tech is due to its fragility.
Also DML tech which may be the easiest to R&D.

But that doesn't even scratch the surface, stuff like conversion to high impedance output stages and other theoretically superior standards that no one seems to be taking advantage of could make things very interesting.
Unfortunately this all costs time and money. Time I have, money I don't


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## abartels

@coinmaster

Yeah, my design of course also is based on theory and took me a lot of hours to accomplish... Lots of brainstorming..... drawing, calculating, measuring etc.
And tweaking afterwords is inevitable 

For testing purposes you can buy used ultracaps in China which won't break the bar. When using a taobao agent, like taobaotrends, you pay less than $2 per piece
for those 100F 2.7V powerstor ultracaps, and that is including shipment.


From experience back in 1991, which was an economic recession too,  I can tell that, without the existence of the internet, I had to write letters to audio companies
to get their interest in our product. I wrote 100 letters to the best Audio firms in The Netherlands, including some importers. From the 100 firms I wrote to, 4 already
went bankrupt before they even received my letter, and 4 others were in severe weather which in the end resulted in 92 "potential customers".
We visited 88 firms of the 92......... which alone was a HUGE result. Everybody was very interested in our product, a DAC. Our direct competitor, soundwise, was
the most expensive Mark Levinson dac which was about HFL30.000 which is about $16.000
Finally we had to seize our company because of the lack of investments. The product was perfect, our commercial inputs were great, but we couldn't get the money to start.
We both end up with debt. That is how it can go.

There are very good designs on the market, and some of them do sound marvelous. Not sure with what kind of source and speakers you listen to your amps and compare
them with others. There's one thing I learned during my Audiophile existence, never say never. The most expensive Accuphase monoblocks 30 years ago didn't sound
as good as my own amp, but to say all the others amps were "old" or "outdated" designs, and mine was best, hmm, that'would be a brute statement.


Ever heard a Audio Research GS150 poweramp? Sounding bad? Not think so...at least, that is what I think. So you say your tube amps sound better? 

@bbalas

Monyo dac, never heard of it, have a link?


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## bballas

you just joking right?my diy monyo dac dont have any link.


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## coinmaster (Oct 11, 2017)

I never claimed my amp sounds "the best", it's arrogant to state that when I have only heard a finite amount of amplifiers.
I only said they are the best that I've heard, although I've heard quite a bit  and considering how much they cost to make compared to the insane cost of some of the commercial stuff I've heard that didn't sound even in the same league as mine, I'm honestly disappointed in the commercial audio industry.
The average person is not even aware or able to imagine what real audio can sound like. Ipod and cellphones are the standard, that is the big shame here I think.

Which is mostly the reason I want to build my own company, or at least sell some amps. It's an easy exploit in an industry that has remained mostly stagnant for decades.

I've seen enough schematics from very high end commercial and non commercial designs to know that the average "high end" product is just...average.

Take the KGSSHV for example, It's supposed to be some top end headphone amplifier and it's essentially a transistor cascade into a push pull output stage if I remember correctly.
I mean seriously dude anyone with a reasonable understanding of analog design could come up with that, how bout being creative.

One of the issues I have with most designs I see is that people don't even try to solve the inherent shortcomings of the design, at least not creatively. It's just a giant copy paste.
NFB is the lazy mans way out. I don't even use it.

I'm not saying old and/or typical designs can't possibly sound really good, but I certainly don't consider them high end and in my experience they just aren't up to par.


I design exclusively with the premise of using unique and out of the box concepts, or at the very least something that hasn't been before much or at all.

I use LTspice as a first measure of conceptual design, I've gone through countless concepts and managed to come out with about a dozen that I deem worthy enough to build.

Although there is a particular input stage I have designed that I am particularly fond of, from an engineering perspective it's basically near perfect, aside from biasing the tubes with a built in algorithmic curve averaging system or something I can't think of a way to improve it, with the goal of clean linear amplification using tubes as the goal anyway.

I've had a few prototype demos up and running and it sounded celestial, unfortunately it's annoyingly complex to build and my sad excuse for power supplies keep crapping out on me and taking out my prototypes with it, or vice versa.
Hence why I'm in dire need of new equipment.
I've also got a few output stage designs that read 0% distortion (technically like 0.0000000005% or something) in LTspice.

The results remain consistent even when using mismatched components and adding any reasonable amount of parasitics into the design so they are legit. In practice I doubt it will be that good due to the "if it's too good to be true" rule of thumb but in my experience spice results are pretty accurate if you apply realistic parameters and results from proven designs show the typical 0.001% and things that they are claimed to be, so simply via trend and comparison the output stages I have are superior, whether or not it will be audible is another story, I haven't built them yet.


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## kevin gilmore (Oct 11, 2017)

quote
Take the KGSSHV for example, It's supposed to be some top end headphone amplifier and it's essentially a transistor cascade into a push pull output stage if I remember correctly.

actually its a folded cascoded current mirror driving a grounded base gain stage with a current sourced emitter follower output stage.

I would like to see what you would come up with that can swing 1.8kv ppss. That and the kgsshv is now 10 years old and has been replaced with something simpler and more effective.
current production solid state parts that do these kind of voltages are hard to find these days.  And tubes that can effortlessly swing these kind of voltages are also hard to come by.

I understand the switching of capacitor banks, but how to make the switching glitchless, and the resulting regulation after that also bumpless seems very hard.

in any case my GRLV power supply is at least 2 orders of magnitude lower in noise than what you have shown.


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## coinmaster (Oct 11, 2017)

> actually its a cascaded current mirror driving a grounded base gain stage with a current sourced emitter follower output stage
> I would like to see what you would come up with that can swing 1.8kv ppss


Yeah sorry it's been a while since I saw the schematic.

 For starters a current source emitter follower is well proven to be a less than optimal way of transferring the audio signal into a load. It's great in theory, when there is no load. There's a variety of ways to improve this using different types of feedback and feedforward techniques.

Using a simple cascode follower as well would allow for high voltages and give better linearity and lower heat at the same time.

I don't have any special issue with the amplification stage since swinging that kind of voltage cleanly can be troublesome and I haven't done too much research into alternative methods of that nature since it isn't my area of interest, at least not until I start building ES amps.
I think I had an interesting potential concept or two stashed away in my archives somewhere, it had something to do with inverted triode operation or something, I forget.

 The KGSSHV was just an example, it was the only schematic I had  recollection of. What is their latest one called? I want to see the schematic.



> in any case my GRLV power supply is at least 2 orders of magnitude lower in noise than what you have shown.


Never heard of it. Is it cheaper to build then jungs? Anything better would be overkill of overkill I think unless it is cheaper  I mean it's not like you can hear nano volt variations as it is.

I think if the super cap power supply actually does sound better it would be due to its imperfections not it's superior performance.


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## kevin gilmore

the current version is the kgsshv-carbon which uses a silicon carbide output jfet with a cascaded current source. better and simpler. you can find the schematic on your own.

The GRLV is definitely NOT cheaper. extra stage at the input that subtracts out diode switching noise and a $10 voltage reference. 30 to 40 nanovolts of peak to peak output noise and voltage stability of better than .01%

I don't design based on parts price.


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## abartels

kevin gilmore said:


> I understand the switching of capacitor banks, but how to make the switching glitchless, and the resulting regulation after that also bumpless seems very hard.



Just using a bypass cap for each voltage rail to damp the glitch, I use some 3300uF ones because I had them laying around. Capacitance of course depends on how much mA circuitry draws.
Most circuitry though have enough buffer caps at input I think to avoid glitch when switching between banks.

There is no so called regulation, it is just a set input voltage (i.o.w. start output voltage) and a timer. Just create enough buffer for a specific runtime.


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## coinmaster (Oct 11, 2017)

> I don't design based on parts price.


Me neither but for the purpose of the experiment I don't see the point in spending extra money when jungs regulator is already redundantly clean and dirt cheap. If super caps do sound better it won't be because of their superior measured performance, it will be something else.
But then again that's up to Abartels because I don't have any money to spend on this right now.


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## abartels

Our ultracap psu's do not measure superior. They have much higher output impedance than your jungs.
Adding ESR of ultracaps, which in our case is around 12mOhm per cell, to the relay contacts,
you end up with  much higher impedance values, varying from around 10mOhm to 50mOhm,
depending on psu design and relay contact performance.

That "something else" what we are talking about is the absence of mains influence. You have to test it, hear it, to believe and understand / comprehend it.

And no, it is not very expensive, at least, not for less power hungry low voltage applications.


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## coinmaster (Oct 11, 2017)

> That "something else" what we are talking about is the absence of mains influence.


Half the point of a regulator is to negate mains influence anyway so that can't be it.

For starters you have a transformer between mains and the prefilter, then the prefilter (or pre-reg) smooths it out, then the regulator largely ignores whats left at the prefilter and actively smooths out the voltage at the output.

To even use a regulator you need to have reasonable voltage headroom before the regulator as well so any ripple left will have minimal impact and regs typically have pretty high psrr anyway.

I mean you could use a 1 to 1 transformer at the start of the chain and get rid of most of the mains noise just by doing that.

I once thought of maybe using LEDs strapped against a solar panel to power an amp to see how it sounded, turns out panels don't work like batteries in that they sag, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. I never ended up trying it although I do have a large stack of cells I could use if I wanted.

Actually thinking about it, it could be interesting to vary the LEDs brightness as a sort of  active regulation.
Probably a pointless exercise in the end since I can't think of any benefits but interesting non the less.

If I were to take a wild guess at why super caps might sound better it might be the combination of voltage sag in phase with the signal in combination with the capacity to supply current at any reasonable frequency or duration of the signal. Something not typically found together in regulated or non regulated supplies.
But then again dacs don't need that much current.

Of course speculation is pointless until it's actually tried.


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## abartels (Oct 11, 2017)

*I really think this discussion is leading us nowhere, so, please lets stop this. If you want to keep spreading around the above statements without at least having tested the ultracap psu's and listened to them, this is going nowhere.
You stated before you don't have the money to test those ultracap psu's, so please, let it be. 

Btw, the so called Class-A psu's from AGD are nothing more and less than superregs too, which Balazs did compare with his ultracap designs months ago.
I think you are aware of the out comings.

Balazs shared his experiences with us, which I still am very grateful for. This ultracap principle is a complete game changer, at least, for me.*


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## coinmaster (Oct 11, 2017)

> We are telling you that the absence of mains DOES have a BIG influence. Why keeping denying this???


Um, that's what I said? One of us is confused.
*



			If you want to keep spreading around the above statements without at least having
tested the ultracap psu's and listened to them, this is going nowhere.
		
Click to expand...

*The "above statements" are technical *fact*, I've already stated a variety of times that better measured performance doesn't necessarily mean better sound and that practical testing is all that matters in the end. Which is why I asked if you would compare the two since it's more efficient then having me replicate your project to confirm.
I'm not sure why are you getting angry?



> You stated before you don't have the money to test those ultracap psu's, so please, let it be and keep using superregs in this kind of applications.


Here is a quote from you below


> "If you can find me a superreg which has an infinite PSRR, and a solution to galvanic isolate that reg's
> output from it's input, for example, then I will look into it, promised........."


Don't be mad if I spent a few posts giving you what you asked for.. I never said you had to do it either, you are being overly sensitive.


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## abartels (Oct 11, 2017)

That was not my intention, sorry, had a rough day, but you keep pointing in your own directions instead of diving into ultracap stuff, which doesn't lead into anything at all.


Like said, galvanic isolation, from mains, that is what all is about in this case, and that absolutely isn't possible with any reg. And that exactly is what you are denying.

Edit:  complete disconnected from mains instead of galvanic isolated. 

Lets keep the discussion clean and ultracap related, ok?


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## coinmaster (Oct 11, 2017)

> Lets keep the discussion clean and ultracap related, ok?


Um, but I am. The discussion of regulators compared to capacitors is entirely relevant because the point of discussion is to reach the truth of the matter that is being discussed, not to perpetuate biases, at least if you want the best results.
I'll take it that you don't want to try the super-reg and that's fine.

I also want to hear your side of why you think galvanic isolation is needed.

Galvanic isolation is only required for safety or because the circuit requires it in order function for some specific purpose, such as connecting floating or high voltage circuits to other circuits.
Like I said before, a proper regulator flushes out any noise from the mains. The only way this is not a fact is if there is some undiscovered scientific "thing" that somehow get's through, which is not entirely impossible but highly unlikely.

Also, in line with your desire for galvanic isolation of the mains, that's exactly what a transformer does.

The transformer you use to convert mains electricity to usable voltage for your DAC is by nature galvanic isolation. Capacitors aren't galvanic isolation.

Plugging in your entire dac including its own transformer to a 1:1 transformer instead of the wall will provide double galvanic isolation and I don't think I've ever heard of an instance where this wasn't enough eliminate mains noise.

Not to mention using a mains rated cap between the windings of the transformer will short out high frequencies from mains ignoring whatever other cap you might have in the filter.

My suggestion to use a solar panel was also another method of eliminating mains from the equation.


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## abartels (Oct 11, 2017)

I know transformer isolates galvanic. Still there's a lot of HF influencing the circuitry.
Maybe I shouldn't mention galvanic isolation at all, complete disconnected from mains, that is what I meant to say. Galvanic isolation in relation to regs, yes, that is important too but not existent. This would mean infinite psrr which I think does the trick. 

My previous DAC was based on a VERY extended psu section (look at my pics). 10 R-Cores, 11 emi/rfi filters, all LT3042 regs with pi filters etc.
I know LT3042 is not compareable with jungs, but still very good on its own with very high psrr and very low noise figures.
Replacing the whole psu section with ultracaps was a H U G E  improvement, and one can not say that I powered my dac the wrong way before,
when used a dedicated R-Core transformer - emi/rfi filter and lt3042 psu with pi filters for EACH voltage rail (6 pieces) of the dac.

It absolutely is NOT in my intention to prove or investigate or whatever, why ultracaps in these kind of designs DO sound superior.
I have some ideas, but it is not in my intention to prove to others why this is the case. If you want prove, investigate it yourself in your LAB.

I tried all kind of power supplies before, all linear, some discrete some not. For source components this, in my opinion, is the best, by far.
Why? I don't have a clue. Does it matter to me? Not really. The only thing that matters is how it sounds, and how to improve its performance.
All other stuff related to this subject isn't of any interest to me. There will be others who can and will explain why ultracaps are the way to go.
I'll bet that you can find enough information on the Uptone page, i can imagine John Swenson is explaining why his LPS-1 does sound so good.
Or, ask Vinnie Rossi about his designs, probably there's enough info on his page too which could explain why ultracaps are very interesting to use in audio products.

The bottomline is, I don't have to explain why, I don't have to investigate, for me it just is, and because it is, it stays and will be improved over time.


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## coinmaster (Oct 11, 2017)

Well to be fair I wouldn't want to listen to a LT3042 either, those types of regulators are known to sound bad. All those filters don't mean much when feeding an IC reg. It's a good idea to stay away from IC regulators in hifi.

On the topic of capacitors in the power supply, I have a bit of something you may with to try.

My original amp I bought before I decided to learn electronic design used a voltage stabilizer (not a regulator, just a zener fed transistor) and it used 300uf electrolytic output capacitors. I replaced them with 275uf film capacitors shown here

http://www.mouser.com/Search/Produc...virtualkey58110000virtualkey581-FFVI6J2756KJE they have 0.9 miliohm impedance. The transformation in sound was gigantic, especially in the bass region. I did a little math trying to figure out why but I couldn't figure it out, the impedance and capacity shouldn't have created such a huge change in sound, especially in the bass give that I reduced capacity. I went as low as 100uf and it still provides the benefits which is interesting.

Even using other film caps provides the same type of benefit. From what I understand super caps are similar to lytic caps so you may want to throw a few big film caps on there and see what it does.

That being said, a super reg sounded as good or better when I swapped it, not that I did any extensive listening comparisons between the two and it may not have been the only factor contributing at the time.

Once I get some power supplies that don't kill themselves every other day I'll be able to do these kinds of tests without it being a huge p.i.t.a.



> Why? I don't have a clue. Does it matter to me? Not really. The only thing that matters is how it sounds, and how to improve its performance.


Oh, well... you can't improve without understanding. From someone who supposedly designed dacs in the 90s I thought you might agree. I guess it's up to you what you want to do.



> There will be others who can and will explain why ultracaps are the way to go.


 I doubt it, it's like the infamous "do caps sound different" or " do cables sound different".
No one knows why they do but they just do, no matter how much you try to reason with it.

I've personally experienced differences in "cable" sound but I wouldn't say the results were conclusive. However I have no doubt that caps do make a difference in sound, it's the entire reason I got into electronic design.

I've already read the explanation on the super cap switcher supply a while ago I don't remember it being anything more than another way to skin a cat.
Id be surprised if someone discovered why super caps would sound better in such a supply since there should be no known scientific basis for it unless I've been missing out on some study on the effects super caps play on linearity in audio supplies in which case please point me in that direction I'd love to be proven wrong.


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## bballas (Oct 11, 2017)

trafo- lt 3042 yes,sound bad !!
trafo- audio gd reg. much better!
ultracap- lt 3042 much better than audio gd!!!!
u.cap-lt3042 Vs.   pure u.cap  - not much diffrence
conclusion:
Stay away from ac mains  in hifi

super regs: big , old , hot and expensive
lt 3042 : small , new , cold , a third of the price


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## coinmaster (Oct 11, 2017)

> conclusion:
> Stay away from ac mains in hifi


Bro, that is not the conclusion you draw from that lol.
Any regulator that is not complete crap in a power supply designed with any competency is going to negate AC mains noise. This is just a scientific fact. If it sounds better it is due to another cause.
If you don't understand this then I doubt the integrity of your comparative tests can be trusted to begin with.
Clearly neither of you have the willingness, understanding, or reasonability required to move this subject further. I'm out.


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## bballas

somebody want to die if hear R2r 7 better than Yggy.  -So funny!!!!!
Alex and me happy with ultracaps. 
does it hurt you?


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## abartels

Hi all,

I got questions per private messages which I think I can better answer here so everybody can read this and profit from it.

Considerations before designing ultracap psu's

1- Doesn't draw the consumer circuit too much current for this kind of psu? 
2- If not, investigate the upper and lower voltage threshold of the circuitry
3- Use this tool to calculate the needed capacity https://tools.eatonelectronics.com/tools/supercapcalculator
4- Build psu's, set voltage of dc-dc converters accordingly and set timer for switch time accordingly
5- Last but definitely not least, don't use more then 3 cells in series without balancing boards or balancing resistors to avoid over voltage

The basics:

Ultracaps and supercaps can deliver a constant current but do drop in voltage immediately after delivering current.
Depending on the capacity of the ultracap and the needed amperage of the consumer it does drop in voltage slower or faster.
Most ultracaps can be used at 2.7V max. Keep this in mind. Lifespan DRASTICALLY decreases when over voltage is applied, and if voltage is too high they will EXPLODE.
If you want the best of the best out of ultracaps within audio designs it is best NOT using regulators behind them, thus let them delivering directly without regulating them.
The drawback of this is that you need a big capacitance so voltage drop keeps within the margins of your consumer.

How to handle voltage drop:

Measure the current flowing thru your circuitry and note it. Investigate it's voltage thresholds (upper and lower). Some circuitry use on board regulators, thus having a very wide voltage threshold.

For example, my first ultracap psu I build was for feeding a Kali reclocker from Allo.com This Kali reclocker has regulators on board and regulates voltage down to 3.3V.
Knowing this we can feed the Kali with much higher voltages, lets say the max of 2 ultracaps in series, 5.4V The lower threshold at which the regulators still work normally would be around 4V
I tested this and Kali stil worked perfectly at 3.6 V. So, when feeding Kali reclocker with ultracap psu, starting at 5.3V (to be sure the ultracaps don't get overloaded) and let voltage drop to
3.6V, this took about 15 minutes. To be on the (very) safe side I set switching time at 10 minutes and did set starting voltage of 5.3V a little lower, at 5,1V to spare the ultracaps and extend their lifespan.

The above story shows and tells us that every ultracap psu is specific made and set for a certain consumer.

Second example:

Directly feeding voltage rails of a dac. This is a little more crucial and more difficult to manage.

The first time I created ultracap psu's for a dac was for the AKM AK4495SEQ. Since I used this dac with LT3042 psu's first, it was easy to measure their current so I could calculate needed ultracaps in relation to runtime.
This dac had 6 voltage rails consisting of 4 Analog 5V rails (which do perform best at 7V), one digital 3.3V rail and a 3.3V analog rail. To create 7V I had to put 3 ultracaps in series, thus every 7V psu consisted of 6 ultracaps.
The 3.3V rails had 2 ultracaps in series, thus 4 ultracaps per psu.
To define the voltage thresholds I consulted the AK4495SEQ whitepapers which lead me to minimum and maximum voltages. I kept all voltages between those thresholds and managed to keep runtime at 15 minutes.
Finally I did set it to 10 minutes so runtime was same as Kali reclocker and I could switch the psu's at the same time.

The second time creating ultracap psu's was with the DA-M1 modules. Since Kingwa provided me with different mA draw ratings, I wasn't sure how the end result would be and I calculated worst case scenario.
Looking at the Xilinx whitepapers, I thought this was the chip used in the DA-M1 modules which consumed the most amperage. I created ultracap psu's of 400F for these, so 4 ultracaps in parallel.
In the end this seems to result in HUGELY overkilled 1.8V psu's. I can run them at least for half an hour without seeing any voltage drop.....
The 3.3V Analog and Digital rails are fed with 100F psu's, 2 parallel sets of 2 ultrcaps in series. The 3.3V rails I start at 3.45V and saw them NEVER drop below 3.4V even after half an hour runtime.



Final word.

Why do ultracap based power supplies perform that well in audio applications? Well, it definitely is related to the absence of mains influences such as HF EMI/RFI. Further, ultracaps can deliver PURE DC,
and last but not least, they do deliver WITHOUT NOISE. Even a battery has noise because of chemical reaction, ultracaps do not have this attribute and do NOT suffering from creating a noise level when charging or discharging.

About keeping output impedance as low as possible: Many ultracaps have very low ESR figures nowadays. It is possible to create psu stages with the lowest possible ESR values, but keep in mind, if using relays or other devices
like mosfets to switch between the capacitor banks, they all inherit some sort of resistance. You have to add that resistance to your ESR values of the ultracaps. Keep this in mind when designing this kind of psu's.
To keep impedance low I did choose for dedicated relays for each voltage line, and also for each ground line. Further, I did take use of bifurcated double throw relays, and paralleled the contact pairs to half the resistance of the contacts.

Please keep in mind that relay contacts have a max current. If designing this kind of psu's, be aware of the destructive force these ultracaps have. For example, the 100F powerstor ultracaps we use have a shorting current of 225A.
No, this isn't a typo, they can deliver 225 AMPS shortly. Their pulse current performance exceeds 60 Amps!!!

That said, can you imagine what happens when i short an output or input cable at one of my four 1.8V ultracap psu's? Those are 400F, 4 cells in parallel. They can deliver a pulse current around 250 Amps and have a shorting current of 900 Amperes!!!!!!!

When tweaking my psu's inside my ΛΓienStreamer I made mistakes, several times. At the beginning I wasn't aware of the BIG danger soldering and screwing around in those while the ultracaps were charged.
Well, this did cost me about 20 relays ($4,50 each.....). While screwing around and shorting some cables, as be it VERY short, those relay contacts some sort of incinerated immediately.... they weren't there anymore, hahahaha
Keep that in mind if soldering and modifying while they are charged!

What I learned of this is: When designing ultracap psu's, and when working with relays, DO take use of DIL sockets to put those relays in (I GLADLY DID, pfew, hahaha). This makes it VERY convenient to replace defective relays.
What I forgot to keep in mind when designing ultracap psu's was: DO PLACE ALL RELAYS AT PLACES WHERE YOU CAN EASILY REPLACE THEM....... My psu's ALSO have relays INSIDE the psu's and not only on top.
Hmm, you get the point, hahahahaha

Having any questions? Please feel free to ask them.

Cheers,
Alex


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## coinmaster (Oct 12, 2017)

Unless the load draws a constant current in which case the supply will perform perfectly anyway, you are not going to get pure DC out of something that doesn't have 0 output impedance. I don't think you know what DC means. A regulator will give purer DC then any amount of caps will unless you have crazy amounts of them in series/parallel to match the impedance and voltage upkeep capabilities of a decent regulator, not to mention the capacitive reactance of the capacitors will be an issue (or a benefit) if you don't parallel enough of them as well.  Also you are not going to be able to hear microvolts worth of noise, the noise argument is silly.
It's not wise to spread unproven opinion as fact, especially when you continue to prove you lack an understanding of basic analog theory.
Okay now I'm out


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## abartels (Oct 12, 2017)

Any news on demagnetizing Dibao's Balazs?


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## abartels (Oct 12, 2017)

Balazs, did you use 10uF filmcaps between dam1's and jfet output stages?


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## AxelCloris

Cleaned up the thread. Please keep posts within the posting guidelines.


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## bballas (Oct 13, 2017)

abartels said:


> Any news on demagnetizing Dibao's Balazs?


I find some demagnetizator(cheap one),just hope, this can help.I don't have any experience about dull sounding output transformers.Can trial tomorrow.
In my se monyo dac, I'm using 6.8uf solen pb series caps,(don't have 10uf)cant measure any dc. After caps,basic Toshiba j fet stages(sound good +0- 6v or up) powered u caps .I LIKE THIS SOUND !!!! (better than gd nfb 1 stage, the highs perfect also)


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## abartels

Looks great Balazs!

Those JCDQ210K buffer pcb with Toshiba 2SK246 / 2SJ103, C2240 / A970 are very inexpensive and do look great!
At my next shipment from China I will order some too for testing purposes.
You could use two of them to power left and right channel separately, or modify pcb to feed left and right channel separately.


I saw that TC-1 demagnetizing device on Taobao too, it is very cheap, around $8. Did you order one yet? Curious if it works!!!!
By the way, can you tell me what is the weight of this device? 1Kg or more? I ask because of shipment costs....

Keep up the good work!

Btw, I expect my ultracaps next week, DHL shipment is on its way to the Netherlands.....


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## abartels

Balazs, if you are going to test this weekend, would you please try how da-m1 sound with output caps only, without jcdq stage behind them?

If I am correct, you wouldn't need jcqd, it only is better for impedance correction, but I think you don't need it. DA-M1 works best with
load higher than 10K, think your pre amp has 47K input impedance, so no need for impedance correction.

Could you please try? Output caps directly?

Thanks!!!

Alex


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## bballas

abartels said:


> Balazs, if you are going to test this weekend, would you please try how da-m1 sound with output caps only, without jcdq stage behind them?
> 
> If I am correct, you wouldn't need jcqd, it only is better for impedance correction, but I think you don't need it. DA-M1 works best with
> load higher than 10K, think your pre amp has 47K input impedance, so no need for impedance correction.
> ...


just short trialed with demagnetized dibao.overall perfect,only the high not so good.today or tomorrow can trial only with caps.


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## motberg

bballas said:


> somebody want to die if hear R2r 7 better than Yggy.  -So funny!!!!!
> Alex and me happy with ultracaps.
> does it hurt you?




You guys may be interested in this video... seems another very well received supercaps product with interesting comments from the designer
Check from 5:45 thru 6:45 ...


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## abartels

Thanks for sharing Tom!

Very nice to see ultracaps entering consumer market finally 
There are already several reviews and user reports on the internet about the JR psu, all VERY positive

The psu looks very good, sadly it is just ONE psu with regulators behind the ucaps. Can you imagine how it sounds directly connected, without regulators? 

We will keep going on with this 

The amazement others are talking about when listening to the ucap powered preamp of JR, that just is what Balazs and I experiencing every time we listen to our ucaps powered DAC's 

I had a defective cell (from the beginning) which resulted in a psu failure. I now am waiting for new ultracaps to arrive before I can go on with the project.


We had some difficulties with the output transformers which got magnetized cores because of DC-output from the DA-M1 modules. I asked Balazs to try demagnetize them,
it worked, but still not 100%. I concluded that DA-M1 can easily drive output directly, capacitor coupled, and the first tests of Balazs where amazing (tested today).

I will test too as soon as my parts from China have arrived. Probably will use Jentzen Superior-Z caps. Just have to try the lowest possible value to get zero DC-offset as a result.
The smaller the cap, the better the performance, and the lower the costs 

Cheers!

Alex


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## bballas

yes,only one cap between r2r modules and preamp.This is my best sounding config (at this time)


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## Jimster480

So looking through this thread, what did you use to process the digital signal into analog?
I didn't find any specific post talking about the actual ladder R2R setup, or did I miss the post?


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## abartels

bballas said:


> yes,only one cap between r2r modules and preamp.This is my best sounding config (at this time)



You use 1x 6.8uF only at HOT output and not at COLD ?


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## abartels (Oct 17, 2017)

Jimster480 said:


> So looking through this thread, what did you use to process the digital signal into analog?
> I didn't find any specific post talking about the actual ladder R2R setup, or did I miss the post?




Hi @Jimster480 ,

This thread is about the DA-M1 modules, powered with ultracaps, but to be honest, talk lately is only about the ultracaps or SQ in common.

We use DA-M1 modules which are the Audio-GD R2R modules that were available for DIY enthusiasts . These are not on sale on the the Audio-GD site anymore,
but you still can see the site and read about them: http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/diy/DA01/DA01EN.htm

Kingwa from Audio-GD designed new modules (DA-7 and DA-8) which aren't available for the diy market,
the DA-M1 modules were the only ones who were available.

If you want to buy them, I can arrange it for you, in that case send me a pm.

Cheers


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## Jimster480

abartels said:


> Hi @Jimster480 ,
> 
> This thread is about the DA-M1 modules, powered with ultracaps, but to be honest, talk lately is only about the ultracaps or SQ in common.
> 
> ...



Oh I see. I will do more research on this! Thanks a bunch


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## bballas

abartels said:


> You use 1x 6.8uF only at HOT output and not at COLD ?


only one cap mean no output transformer,no dc servo ic,no j fets,nothing else,1-1 cap +and - .


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## CJG888

A bit like a traditional TDA1543 application, then...


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## CJG888

Does that mean you can leave the cap out altogether if you have a DC blocking cap on the input of your preamp?


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## bballas

mean dac modules generated 0.5v gone.


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## abartels

CJG888 said:


> Does that mean you can leave the cap out altogether if you have a DC blocking cap on the input of your preamp?



That depends on the value of your DC blocking cap on input preamp.
The DA-M1 modules generate rather high DC-offset about 0.5V


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## bballas

System update....
Source:
Sparky Sbc upsampler 384khz play sd card(not stream!!!)  5v u cap psu - iso regen 7v u cap psu- Singxer f1 5v u cap psu- i2s

Dac1:
Detonator Reference 12 rail balanced u cap dac (No active or passive coupling or other stages ) dc offset removed by M10 preamp

Dac2:
Monyo  : single ended 4 rail u cap dac.(4pcs lt 3042 reg, 2rail Dc in Analog,Digital) with decoupling capacitor

Amp1:
M 10 monorual mod. total 7 transformers-7 iso transformers

Amp2:
(Under the Develop)
Class D 2x 25w single ended ,direct connected to Monyo ,16v 100Farad u cap powered,volumio digital volume control,no relays,runtime 1hours /charge, charging time  5min without music stop.
(tested yesterday first, sound promising!!!!!)


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## bballas




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## bballas

the 20$ class D with ultracaps sound much detailed,blacker background than my modded m10


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## abartels

Wow, that sounds very promising! You use 6x 16V Ucap modules?


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## abartels

I was quite some time absent because my father passed away Tuesday 31 Oct.
Will need some time to recover before I can concentrate on DIY audio again.

In the meantime it is good to see you are designing class-D with ucaps Balazs, keep us posted!

Best regards,
Alex


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## bballas

yes,6x16v modules,bought this alredy a long time.only the class d module missed.really surprised the runtime with one charging,and   the sound compared my monster size amp..overall new details come.
Now this is full ultracap chain ,without wall power , without noise,without unnecessary active or passive components,stages.


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## bballas




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## abartels (Nov 18, 2017)

Interesting. Can you imagine how it would sound with a good sounding class-d chipset instead of the one you used, like ICEpower 300A1


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## bballas

yeah,this chipset sound class d flavuor.Cant listen long time.


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## bballas

Noticeable upgrade,between isolator transformer-power amp transformer.Power wire reduced  1.2m vs. 30cm.Better mid,soundstage accuracy.More real,without masking


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## bballas

New arrivals here:Sotm Tx usb ultra+sps 500.Highly recommended!!


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## bballas

Good isolated Sotm sps500 (2 isolation transformer between audio stacks) compared my Diy U cap Psu  :  
Sonically no differences.


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## abartels

Still no sound here, didn't debug, will do so within 2 weeks, hope I can get 8xR2R to work again...

How about your projects?


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## motberg

abartels said:


> Still no sound here, didn't debug, will do so within 2 weeks, hope I can get 8xR2R to work again...
> 
> How about your projects?


Great to see you back in action!

Looking forward to your progress report...  good luck..


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## alamakazam

I notice there are no balancing circuit for the ultracaps... or did I miss it


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## abartels

motberg said:


> Great to see you back in action!
> 
> Looking forward to your progress report... good luck..



Yeah, I'm glad too  I took some time for myself, from now on I will slowly start all up again 
Have lots of DIY projects and upgrades in mind, tons of materials and ideas are waiting to find there way into my equipment

Cheers!


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## abartels

alamakazam said:


> I notice there are no balancing circuit for the ultracaps... or did I miss it



No, you didn't miss it, you are correct, we don't use balancing circuitry for ultracaps because we never use more than 3 in series (following Maxwell's advice)

@bballas  has some 16V modules which he used for output stages and Class-D amp, those have balancing circuitry built-in.

It also is important NOT to use the U-Caps up to their limits (2.7V). Try to keep it at a max of 2.5V per cell, this will take care of balancing problems
when using 2 or 3 cells in series, and, not using them up-to their limits will increase their lifespan A LOT.

I had some defective U-caps which were put in series of 2 to create 3.3Volts. The defective U-Caps had 0 Ohms resistance, thus a short, putting them in series
resulted in 3.3Volts on ONE U-Cap. Yes, the good U-Cap did die eventually, but not within hours or days, it took much longer.


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## bballas

Nice to see you again Alex!!!
Somebody on C.A. think real expert,find uptone lps1 use ballast resistors reach  lower impendace.
Also Motberg visited me last weekend,and tested lps1,have better air and details than pure u caps.
Also 10 farad in lps1 vs 100, the spec ,not same......


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## abartels

Hi Balazs,

Yeah, I'm back 
Can you send link on CA about lps1-ballast resistor? Is it ballast resistor or balancing resistors?

Good to hear Tom visited you last weekend! Hope you two had a good time 

LPS1 has completely different schematics. I think it has lower output impedance in comparison with your own ucaps psu.
What kind of ucaps psu were you comparing too? One without balancing resistors, a self made psu? How many ucaps were put in series, and on what voltage level did you compare (3.3V - 5V or even higher)?
Or did you compare with ucaps DIRECTLY connected, without relays???

LPS1 has regulation after ucaps. It probably has lower impedance because of bad relays in self made psu's.

Be aware when compare, can't compare apples with pears, I'll explain below:

You know all the troubles I had (and still have) building my R2R dac with ucaps, they all were related to creating shortings in psu's, thus stressing relays, wiring and ucaps.
In my case, in the beginning I wasn't aware of the danger when measuring all electronics with INPUT wires (output of DC-DC converters) still connected to the psu's.
Any shorting on input-side of psu's also means shorting on output side!!!! EVERY shorting results AT LEAST in damaged relay contacts!
Damaged relay contacts can dramatically increase output impedance, thus decrease sound quality!!!!

You ONLY can compare a freshly built, measured and 2 weeks burned-in ucaps psu because in that case you have a 100% ucaps psu.

Related to all these troubles, I am thinking on a full redesign of my ucaps psu's. A redesign in which I can remove ALL relays before tampering in the unit 
This means that I MUST start over, from scratch............

This also means that I am planning to design a PCB instead of using hard-wired test-boards. Good thing is that assembling those PCB's would only take a fraction of the time
in comparison to hard-wiring the test-boards!


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## bballas

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/...v-now-with-parallel-lt3045-regulators/?page=2


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## bballas

Sotm clocked singxer,uptone lps1.2 -4pcs lt 3045 -dam1 digital,
Ac choke-gd r core transformer-lt 1084-lt1963-lt 3045’s-dam1 analog 3.3


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## bballas




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## yildiray

Hi ,

I sent this message to bballas but couldn't get an answer yet.I want to share and ask to you also.

I have 4 Pcs PCM1704 and JLsound I2Sover board and I have been started to make a referance DAC. I planed to pay too money for linear power supplies and transformers then I saw your great works!

I read some disadvantages of supercaps here;

https://www.mojo-audio.com/power-supply-faqs/

Do you agree especially supercaps life?

If you say don't pay money to linear supplies and make supercap, could you share board brands, bom list and wire diagrams/circuits? 

Do you agree to all of these finish will be a high end device? 

Thank you and Best Regards


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## abartels

Superaps / Ultracaps have a VERY long life expectancy, if used correctly. They can easily cycled 1.000.000 times before esr rises to an unacceptable value, depending on your design.
They have an INFINITE shelf life.
One cycle contains 1x fully charging and 1x fully discharge. In hour applications we won't discharge to 0% (maybe to 75%) and we wont charge them to 100% (90% to 92%)
It is very important to "let them rest" between discharging and charging, this way they won't get "hot". Also, take an acceptable margin to maximum charge voltage, charge 2.7V cell to 2.4V-2.5V max will increase their life big time.
Also, if designing, calculate a buffer size that keeps voltage between threshold for about 10 to 15 minutes before switching between the charged and discharged banks.
If you respect these design rules, your Ultracap psu probably exceeds your OWN life expectancy.....
Ultracaps are used in windmills and electric cars, and these are examples of applications were they are beaten-up heavily.....
If you want to know more about Ultracaps, please read all those whitepapers from Maxwell.

About Mojo, it is very obvious they want to sell their linear psu's, absolutely not knowing what they are talking about in relation to Ultracaps.
Mojo talks about Saw Tooth when switching between the banks, B S, maybe they tested with NO buffer cap at it's output, just a very badly designed Ultracap-Psu, not sure what they did, but I really can't take their article very serious,,,,,,

If you should go the ultracap route, I don't know. Maybe try batteries instead, those are easier to handle, Ian Canada has LiFePo4 based psu's which almost perform as well as ultracaps, soundwise.
Designing Ultracap psu takes a lot of time to investigate, mine are prototypes, no pcb's available, no schematics since I don't want to burn my hands. I am thinking on designing new ones for multipurpose, based on switching mosfets.
But, it probably will take at least one year before I have a prototype, or even much much longer, or even worse,,,,,,,

Ever heard of Vinni Rossi? Nagra? Naim? Esoteric? Jeff Rowland? Ask them if Ultracaps have a good use for Ultra High-End audio 

Cheers and good luck!
Alex


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## bunkbail

abartels said:


> Ever heard of Vinni Rossi? Nagra? Naim? Esoteric? Jeff Rowland? Ask them if Ultracaps have a good use for Ultra High-End audio


Rob Watts utilizes Ultracap banks inside his Chord Hugo TT 2 and DAVE designs as well.


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## kazsud

How much of a difference did the Kali Reclocker make?


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## abartels

A huge improvement!!!!!


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## airborne11b

Does anyone know where to get a couple of these Audio-GD R2R dac modules?


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## abartels

i would try directly contact with Audio-GD


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