# Sonarworks Headphone Calibration software



## amigomatt

Hey, this looks interesting.  Has anyone tried it?  It's squarely aimed at music producers and engineers but it makes some intriguing claims...
  
 http://sonarworks.com/headphones/overview/


----------



## Gammon2004

First post!  I'm just now getting into headphones for fun after spending some time obsessing over them for work.  I've been using Sonarworks software as a mixing engineer, and was so surprised and impressed by it that I'm buying another license to use for pleasure listening.  The Sennheiser 598s work incredibly well with this software - better than the 600s, actually, in my opinion.  I'd recommend downloading the demo - you'll also likely need software to rout all output sound through the plugin, and I use Audio Hijack for that, which also has a time-limited free demo.  I'm curious to hear what others think of it, but so far it's working better than I expected it to, and it's easily a better investment for me than the large number of cans I've bought recently in my continued search for the 'perfect sound.'


----------



## amigomatt

gammon2004 said:


> First post!  I'm just now getting into headphones for fun after spending some time obsessing over them for work.  I've been using Sonarworks software as a mixing engineer, and was so surprised and impressed by it that I'm buying another license to use for pleasure listening.  The Sennheiser 598s work incredibly well with this software - better than the 600s, actually, in my opinion.  I'd recommend downloading the demo - you'll also likely need software to rout all output sound through the plugin, and I use Audio Hijack for that, which also has a time-limited free demo.  I'm curious to hear what others think of it, but so far it's working better than I expected it to, and it's easily a better investment for me than the large number of cans I've bought recently in my continued search for the 'perfect sound.'


 
 Well, thank you for your reply, especially from someone with experience of this product.  I too have the 598s!  I may just look into it then...


----------



## SodaBoy

I am trialing this right now, and I am extremely impressed. Currently running this as a VST plugin under Jriver MC19 with HD650 calibration profile; filter is set to linear phase, reference curve to flat.
  
 I no longer have to crank the volume to hear details, everything is less congested on the HD650s. The midbass emphasis is gone, and the treble dips that people interpreted as the "veil" is gone as well. Nothing jumps at you, there is no sibilance, and no additional listening fatigue. It seems to have pushed the "in between my ears" HD650 soundstage further out so that it actually is outside my head now.
  
 My impressions thus far is that this plugin will do far more to improve audio reproduction than essentially upgrading any component in the signal chain (reasonably assuming that your upstream components are not fatally compromised). Better DACs and amps will improve resolution, but cannot improve the linearity of headphones. There's also a limit to the extent that manufacturers can tune their headphones for linearity through analog means. I think digital calibration like this is the future. 
  
 With Jriver MC20, I could apply this calibration system wide with the MC20 WDM driver. Games, Youtube, Spotify, everything will be processed through the WDM driver through which the Sonarworks VST plugin will be applied.
  
 I must add that the "Avoid Clipping" feature is ON by default. What this does is that the output level is decreased in order to leave headroom so that the signal does not clip. This is a good feature that should be left on. However this also means that when you A/B the uncalibrated signal will be louder, and psychoacoustics 101 tells us that louder always sounds better, even when it really isn't. I think this is similar to what Benchmark does, which is to reduce levels before the signal reaches the DAC, leaving extra headroom.
  
 Food for thought.


----------



## Gammon2004

> I must add that the "Avoid Clipping" feature is ON by default. What this does is that the output level is decreased in order to leave headroom so that the signal does not clip. This is a good feature that should be left on. However this also means that when you A/B the uncalibrated signal will be louder, and psychoacoustics 101 tells us that louder always sounds better, even when it really isn't. I think this is similar to what Benchmark does, which is to reduce levels before the signal reaches the DAC, leaving extra headroom.
> Food for thought.


 
  
 Just a quick tip - if you turn the entire plugin off (using the on-off slider at the top right) then yes, you'll hear the uncorrected signal a lot louder.  But as long as you just turn the calibration off (using the power button on the bottom right), the volume levels will stay the same between the corrected and uncorrected audio. 
  
 But in general, I'm glad you're liking it too!  And I completely agree that this seems to make more of a difference than any signal component in the signal chain could, as long as nothing is actually broken.


----------



## SodaBoy

gammon2004 said:


> Just a quick tip - if you turn the entire plugin off (using the on-off slider at the top right) then yes, you'll hear the uncorrected signal a lot louder.  But as long as you just turn the calibration off (using the power button on the bottom right), the volume levels will stay the same between the corrected and uncorrected audio.
> 
> But in general, I'm glad you're liking it too!  And I completely agree that this seems to make more of a difference than any signal component in the signal chain could, as long as nothing is actually broken.


 

 Yes you are right actually, the calibration toggle works perfect. I only tried it briefly yesterday on some quiet not-so-busy tracks for a few seconds and wasn't sure if it was working.
  
 Second day so far, I have switched to minimum phase filter, soundstage not as large as linear phase, but things seem to sound tighter and more natural. I also found that the plugin crashes when Jriver is restarted. Simple fix is to remove and re-add the plugin in Jriver, takes 5 seconds, no reinstall necessary. Will report this to Sonarworks when I have the time, could be a Jriver issue too, but I will go through Sonarworks first.
  
 Bugs aside, I have always been a big believer in DSP. I am extremely satisfied with what I am hearing right now, I think I have just lost all impulse to buy new headphones. I will continue to upgrade the signal chain, but this DSP has everything beat in terms of improvement, in both relative and absolute terms. When I look at the high end headphone ladder, what I see is mostly a struggle to improve FR linearity through analog means. Improvements in distortion have been miniscule by comparison. Using DSP is like exercising Occam's razor, this is the most direct and simple route to a more linear FR. None of this is to say that a flat perceived FR is the goal of the hobby of course, but it is for me personally.
 This is a sure buy for me.


----------



## dmbr

Interesting...so how exactly would one implement this plugin with foobar?

I'm already using one VST effect that I really value and I'm not sure of a way to run two at once.

Edit:
Ah, I see I don't have a pair of headphones they have a profile for. Here's hoping they keep adding models


----------



## Gammon2004

Yup, they've told me they're in the process of expanding the model list and more should be coming out soon.  They also offer a service where you send them your headphones and they'll give you a custom calibration for those cans, which theoretically should be even more accurate than the 'average HD 598 response' model that I'm using.  I think it's around $100, and I'm considering sending them my Mad Dogs to get them measured.


----------



## dmbr

$100 more than the current cost?

That's a bit steep, but tempting. If I didnt have to ship my cans I'd probably pay it though 

Edit:

Anyone know if Foobar can use 2 vst's at once? Pretty important to me that I be able to use my current one in addition to this.

Will probably wait to see if they come out with an ie800 preset. This really does look promising in terms of sq impact!


----------



## SodaBoy

Well the $113 EUR calibration includes the $69 EUR plugin bundled for that price. I think that's a fair price. I also think it's part of their strategy to measure a bunch of headphones and generate an averaged calibration profile to bundle with their main software. Even within the same headphone line there will be variations due to tolerances, and they will want to measure as many, say HD800s, as they can before they introduce an averaged calibration profile for it. The real snag would be proving to the customs that you are not importing say a $1500 USD headphone, because if you can't prove it you are SOL. If you bought the headphones second hand, you probably wouldn't have a receipt for it either.
  
 As for Foobar, just load something like a crossfeed VST and an equalizer VST together. If it works together, then this one will be no different.


----------



## RudeWolf

Hey guys!
  
 Glad you liked what we have achieved!
  
 Initially we launched as a pro only product, but naturally everyone looking for the best headphone sound is welcome to participate! We also do digital room correction which in our and our client's opinion blows the socks off of almost all currently available solutions.
  
 We recently calibrated a pair of HD800, LCD-2 and K1000's - the result was terrific. What sets the ceiling for our calibration is THD, therefore these higher end headphones do pretty well.


----------



## ginetto61

Hi i have a question
 What are the OS and HW requirements for the pc ?
 Could you give some kind of recommendation on what you think are the optimal combinations "headphone - calibration" ?
 Thanks a lot,  gino


----------



## RudeWolf

OS wise you should be fine with Windows XP or newer and OSX 10.7 or newer. As for headphone/calibration combos - M50x is a good closed headphone with very low THD which calibrated very nicely. For open headphones... pick your poison, we can make just about any headphone to sound good, provided it doesn't have too high natural THD.


----------



## ginetto61

rudewolf said:


> OS wise you should be fine with Windows XP or newer and OSX 10.7 or newer.
> As for headphone/calibration combos - M50x is a good closed headphone with very low THD which calibrated very nicely.
> For open headphones... pick your poison, we can make just about any headphone to sound good, provided it doesn't have too high natural THD.


 
  
 Hi thanks a lot for the very helpful reply
 I am thinking very seriously about EQ my headphones, but i am still undecided about which way to take ... HW (with a digital eq unit) or SW.
 I am very ignorant on the issue.
 But i am now convinced that EQ can make wonders.
 Thanks a lot again,  gino


----------



## SodaBoy

rudewolf said:


> Hey guys!
> 
> Glad you liked what we have achieved!
> 
> ...


 

 How do users obtain new profiles?


----------



## RudeWolf

Average profiles made from measuring numerous headphones of the same model are bundled in the install pack of our plug-in. Custom profiles can be had only by sending your headphones in for measuring or buying new pre-measured headphones from us.
  
 Currently we have profiles for these cans - 
  

AKG K141 MKII
AKG K240 Studio
AKG K701
AKG K702
AKG K712
Audio-Technica M20x
Audio-Technica M40x
Audio-Technica M50x
Beyerdynamic DT770 80 Ohm
Beyerdynamic DT880 Pro
Beyerdynamic DT990 Pro
Sennheiser HD280
Sennheiser HD598
Sennheiser HD600
Sennheiser HD650
Shure SRH840
Sony MDR7506
Superlux HD681


----------



## SodaBoy

rudewolf said:


> Average profiles made from measuring numerous headphones of the same model are bundled in the install pack of our plug-in. Custom profiles can be had only by sending your headphones in for measuring or buying new pre-measured headphones from us.
> 
> Currently we have profiles for these cans -
> 
> ...


 

 Sorry, I thought you were introducing new average profiles. You definitely should introduce profiles for the LCD-2 and the HD800 though, perhaps the HE-560 as well.


----------



## RudeWolf

Ain't that easy to get a bunch of these higher end headphones in shop for measuring. Also in the case of LCD-2 an average curve would be hard to do because of all the various revisions floating around. They do calibrate very good actually, I run a pair at home!


----------



## BobSmith8901

Can someone post a quick tutorial on which plug-in(s) from the headphone calibration trial software to install (and how to install them) into say Foobar or JRiver to get the headphone calibration software to come up?
  
 I downloaded the free trial from Sonarworks but am clueless on where to start as to getting the appropriate plug-in into one of these players so I can calibrate my headphones. Thanks!


----------



## SodaBoy

bobsmith8901 said:


> Can someone post a quick tutorial on which plug-in(s) from the headphone calibration trial software to install (and how to install them) into say Foobar or JRiver to get the headphone calibration software to come up?
> 
> I downloaded the free trial from Sonarworks but am clueless on where to start as to getting the appropriate plug-in into one of these players so I can calibrate my headphones. Thanks!


 

 Jriver
 Tools > Options > Audio > DSP & output format > Manage Plug-ins > Add JRiver, VST, or Win-amp Plug-in > Point to file Reference3.dll
  
 Use 32 bit version for Jriver, as it does not support 64 bit plug-ins.


----------



## sfoclt

Thanks for those instructions.  Trying it now.


----------



## BobSmith8901

Thank you for your quick reply! Had a bit of a problem finding the Reference3.dll but in my Win 8.1 it was in Program Files/VSTPlugins. Very cool software and it does seem to make a difference with the 598. Thanks again.


----------



## SodaBoy

This is a great software and personally I'm glad more people are giving it a chance. If you guys have any listening impressions, do come back and share it with the rest of us.


----------



## markanini

I bet this harman curve would be a good fit for the  reference curve section.


----------



## SodaBoy

I am still wondering what reference curve Sonarworks uses, but since it sounds pretty damn good I'm not too curious. Maybe they even use their own target curve, but it takes a lot of rigor to come up with something acceptable. According to Tyll, the Harman people were still working on it as of 2014, and I'm willing to bet they are working on it even now...


----------



## markanini

sodaboy said:


> I am still wondering what reference curve Sonarworks uses, but since it sounds pretty damn good I'm not too curious. Maybe they even use their own target curve, but it takes a lot of rigor to come up with something acceptable. According to Tyll, the Harman people were still working on it as of 2014, and I'm willing to bet they are working on it even now...


 
 Probably a trade secret. The harman curve above goes well with it though, try it out:

  
 By now I've listened to everything from string quartets to orchestras, classic rock to metal and big band jazz to trios, it's better to me than anything provided in the reference curve section.


----------



## SodaBoy

I can't define a whole new reference curve within Sonarworks, I can only adjust the existing curve. To use the Harman curve I would have to create my own calibration curve in eq, which I don't believe I could do accurately even with raw measurements. Whatever they do at Sonarworks, I'm pretty sure they use an algo to generate the calibration curve based on raw data. Their measurement rig must be pretty sophisticated too.
  
 I'm going to send in a headphone to be calibrated soon, probably an HD800. It's got a well designed acoustic baffle that doesn't change the FR much with head placement. With a custom profile they'll tune each channel individually granting nearly perfect channel balance and flatness. Maybe one day this will become popular, and people will spend less time fiddling with expensive doodads. In the meantime there will only be us punters


----------



## markanini

You can use the in-room difference curve by the example I provided in post #26 and it will be perfectly accurate. We assume sonarworks did a good job at providing what's equivalent to the green line. You could also do it in sonarworks(calibrate>custom>bass boost/tilt), but the slope is too wide and you'll either get bloated midbass or reduced sub bass.


----------



## SodaBoy

markanini said:


> You can use the in-room difference curve by the example I provided in post #26 and it will be perfectly accurate. We assume sonarworks did a good job at providing what's equivalent to the green line. You could also do it in sonarworks, but the slope is too wide and you'll either get bloated midbass or reduced sub bass.


 

 I'll try this tomorrow, should be easy with what you provided.


----------



## SodaBoy

Nevermind, couldn't resist, finished it already and listening. Sounds pretty bassy.
  
 Will listen some more tomorrow.
  
 EDIT: Yeah, sounds pretty bassy. Trance and hiphop sounded good. Sounded veiled on some other songs. I prefer the Sonarworks reference curve, but I can't say this sounds wrong. It's like the difference between the HD800 and the LCD-2/3 or something. Diffuse field vs Harman.


----------



## markanini

sodaboy said:


> Nevermind, couldn't resist, finished it already and listening. Sounds pretty bassy.
> 
> Will listen some more tomorrow.
> 
> EDIT: Yeah, sounds pretty bassy. Trance and hiphop sounded good. Sounded veiled on some other songs. I prefer the Sonarworks reference curve, but I can't say this sounds wrong. It's like the difference between the HD800 and the LCD-2/3 or something. Diffuse field vs Harman.


 
  
 It's hardly your grandfathers bassy headphone sound, just non-bloated well extended bass that's still track dependant. Vocals have high intelligibility. I'd grant it's not for those that hunt insane detail a la HD800.
  
 Again who knows what transfer function Sonorworks used for ear compensation. But with the harman in-room curve the tonality very much resembles large speakers in a good room which is exactly what Harman targeted, so it appears to be a good match.


----------



## markanini

I went on youtubes popular music section to see how more modern recordings fare with the Harman room curve and I still favor it.


----------



## SodaBoy

Well I realized today my listening impressions were hardly perfect. I'm using old compressed pads on my HD650s, this would boost the bass by at least 2dB if not more and tilt the whole FR. With new pads your curve should sound less bassy, however I might end up with new phones before the new pads arrive lol.


----------



## RudeWolf

Pad wear is something that tends to change the sound a lot. We usually do our measurements on new pads, so there's a common reference point.
  
 By the way - we just finished our newest review!
  

  
 Read the full review here - http://sonarworks.com/2015/06/studio-headphone-review-sony-mdr-7506/


----------



## Music Alchemist

sodaboy said:


> Jriver
> Tools > Options > Audio > DSP & output format > Manage Plug-ins > Add JRiver, VST, or Win-amp Plug-in > Point to file Reference3.dll
> 
> Use 32 bit version for Jriver, as it does not support 64 bit plug-ins.


 
  
How about foobar2000? (I don't own JRiver.)
  
How do I:
  

get it to work while music is playing?
select the appropriate headphone profile?
mess with the settings?
  
 Edit: See my post below with foobar2000 tutorial.


----------



## interpolate

I am going to play with this tonight....
  
 So supposing I use one instance on the master bus and I toggle it and off as a necessary it should fix some mixing decisions when mixing on headphones. There is an analogy going around that you should never mix with headphones and trust them to be completely correct.
  
 So say, I find a setting in Reference 3 and then bypass it, Add some limiter amplification by the amount of headroom recovered, for example 10dB; how do you know the maximum level/RMS Average correspond to the measurements when the Reference 3 plug-in is bypassed. Will using Reference 3 and 0dB on the mastered track provide you with a neutral mix with very little differences?
  
  
 Previously I demo'd this software however the trial expired.
  
 Hopefully my question makes sense to someone else in the know.


----------



## Music Alchemist

Okay, I got it to work with foobar2000. Here's what you need to do.
  
 Download and install the free trial of Sonarworks Reference 3 Headphone. (Or purchase it.)
  
 Download and install this VST adapter in foobar2000.
  
 Go to Components, VST plugins and add the Sonarworks plugin.
  
 Go to Playback, DSP Manager and activate the Sonarworks plugin. Then click Configure Selected.
  
 If anyone needs more specific info, I can help.
  
 I haven't listened yet, but I'm excited!


----------



## Music Alchemist

Noooo! I sold my amp/DAC and can't get as much volume now...and this plugin decreases the volume. Bummer... I'll need to find songs with louder volume.
  
 But I tested with and without the plugin already. Sounds worlds better!!!
  
 Update: I deselected avoid clipping and can get more volume now.


----------



## markanini

interpolate said:


> I am going to play with this tonight....
> 
> So supposing I use one instance on the master bus and I toggle it and off as a necessary it should fix some mixing decisions when mixing on headphones. There is an analogy going around that you should never mix with headphones and trust them to be completely correct.
> 
> ...


 
 What are you trying to do exactly? I wouldn't recommend mixing with stock settings as it simulates an anechoic chamber which is an unrealistic listening environment. 6dB tilt and 4dB bass boost will get you in the ball park of the Harman reference room.


----------



## Music Alchemist

Just wanted to emphasize how much of an improvement this software makes with my Sony MDR-7506. Without the calibration activated, it sounds so bright, tinny, harsh, and nasty. Once it's activated, it sounds so much more natural it's unbelievable. If you own any of the compatible headphones, trying out this software is essential! I also plan on sending in future headphones to get custom calibrations someday.


----------



## interpolate

I just wanted to know what adjustments if any would be needed.
  
 My input monitor volume is already -18dB, so I needed to know where there reference point stood with this. Thanks for the advice.


----------



## RudeWolf

markanini said:


> What are you trying to do exactly? I wouldn't recommend mixing with stock settings as it simulates an anechoic chamber which is an unrealistic listening environment. 6dB tilt and 4dB bass boost will get you in the ball park of the Harman reference room.


 
  
 The reference "flat" curve stimulates flat speakers in a well treated room, not anechoic chamber. It actually resembles the Harman curve in many ways, so applying it once gain might be "too much of a good thing".
  
  


music alchemist said:


> Just wanted to emphasize how much of an improvement this software makes with my Sony MDR-7506. Without the calibration activated, it sounds so bright, tinny, harsh, and nasty. Once it's activated, it sounds so much more natural it's unbelievable. If you own any of the compatible headphones, trying out this software is essential! I also plan on sending in future headphones to get custom calibrations someday.


 
  
 Thanks for posting the tutorial! There is actually more than one way to get it working on a Windows system. VSTHost for example would allow you to route all system sounds through our plug-in.
  
 Also - glad that you liked it!


----------



## markanini

rudewolf said:


> The reference "flat" curve stimulates flat speakers in a well treated room, not anechoic chamber. It actually resembles the Harman curve in many ways, so applying it once gain might be "too much of a good thing".


 
 I can't square that with the graph and the available settings. When I deselect B&K curve, for example, the curve becomes flat. In that case the B&K curve and all other setting besides flat are too much of a good thing too.
 Besides, the flat setting is not the sound I hear of speakers in a good room, such as this this studio control room in my town:

 That's why I started tweaking and eventually supplied my own curve based on Harmans.


----------



## Music Alchemist

@markanini
  
 Can you tell me which alterations to make to the default setting for the Sony MDR-7506 to follow the Harman curve? I'd like to compare.


----------



## Music Alchemist

rudewolf said:


> There is actually more than one way to get it working on a Windows system. VSTHost for example would allow you to route all system sounds through our plug-in.


 
  
 I was actually about to ask how to apply the calibration to everything, including videos. I'll try that out soon.
  
 It would be especially helpful if you could show how to do what you described, with VSTHost. (It may be intuitive, but just in case it's tricky.)


----------



## RudeWolf

VSTHost is anything but intuitive!
  
 So you need this - http://www.hermannseib.com/english/vsthost.htm
  
 It will make an emulated environment which will be able to use VST plug-ins.
  
 And this - http://vb-audio.pagesperso-orange.fr/Cable/
  
 It's a utility which will make it possible for your system to communicate with VSTHost and treat it like a DAC, while actually it will be a proxy between a DAC and your audio output.
  
 Keep in mind that our plug-in will introduce a minimum of 1.13ms of delay, which makes it clunky to use for video. Tidal on the other hand should be just fine! We currently have a zero latency in the works, so stay tuned!


----------



## Music Alchemist

rudewolf said:


> VSTHost is anything but intuitive!
> 
> So you need this - http://www.hermannseib.com/english/vsthost.htm
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yeeeeaahhhh...no clue how to work with any of this. I need to know how to do it, step by step.
  
 I don't need an external DAC, do I? (I sold all my amps and DACs for now.)


----------



## interpolate

Essentially vst host act as go between host; a bridge if you like. So you would set up the asio driver in foobar2000 and add the sonarworks plug-in to vst host. The returning output should be the callibrated audio. Although this isn't the primary application for this program.


----------



## markanini

music alchemist said:


> Yeeeeaahhhh...no clue how to work with any of this. I need to know how to do it, step by step.
> 
> I don't need an external DAC, do I? (I sold all my amps and DACs for now.)


 
 20 seconds of google brought me to this guide: https://nirklars.wordpress.com/tag/vb-audio/


----------



## Music Alchemist

interpolate said:


> Essentially vst host act as go between host; a bridge if you like. So you would set up the asio driver in foobar2000 and add the sonarworks plug-in to vst host. The returning output should be the callibrated audio. Although this isn't the primary application for this program.


 
  
 I'm talking about how to use it with videos. I already got it to work with foobar2000.
  
 (Guess you didn't read my earlier posts in this thread about that.)
  


markanini said:


> 20 seconds of google brought me to this guide: https://nirklars.wordpress.com/tag/vb-audio/


 
  
 Thanks. Still looks way too complicated, though...


----------



## markanini

music alchemist said:


> Thanks. Still looks way too complicated, though...


 
 Find some free time and brew a pot of coffee. You can do it, I believe in you.


----------



## interpolate

If anything takes more than 3 or 4 steps it probably is.


----------



## dakanao

VSTHost doesn't work? I get a weird error with a lot of text if I try to open VSTHost.


----------



## Music Alchemist

@RudeWolf
  
How do I change the headphone calibration profile to a different headphone? When I try to, it just shows my desktop now. I don't know where the files are. When I first installed the plugin, it had a list of profiles to choose from. I have been looking through my program files folders and cannot find any of the files I need. Where are the files located?
  
 Just found the files. They were in Documents, Sonarworks Projects.


----------



## Music Alchemist

Meh. Don't like the M50x preset at all. Just makes it sound more clinical. Then again, I'm not impressed by the M50x in the first place. Sounds pretty inaccurate with or without the calibration, but more enjoyable to me without. Guess I was hoping for too much when I bought it, despite being spoiled by much more expensive headphones. The Focal Spirit Professional and Yamaha HPH-MT220 easily outperform the M50x, and those aren't even examples of expensive headphones. I was delighted to hear that the FSP will have a preset soon. I've owned two of those, but probably won't buy it a third time. Anyway, the Sony preset remains awesome!


----------



## RudeWolf

Enjoyable sound was never our promise. If you straighten out a U-curved headphone the first impression will be a 'clinical' sound, no way around it. We're okay with that, because it will result in more enjoyable mixes.


----------



## interpolate

@RudeWolf
 It's not often I get to communicate with one of the developers on a public forum, so here it goes.
  
 It's the same question as before although asked in a different way.
  
 I am a Sonar Platinum user and will be using Reference 3 on a Master Bus, so my question is how do I use it with my mix process, Do I mix through the plug-in and bypass it on render? The reason I ask is because of the cut in gain it applies by default or will I turn of the prevent clipping and control any volume transients using a limiter elsewhere on the Master bus.
  
 To keep this relevant I will be using the AKG K702 Average profile.
  
 Nobody seemed to address the question when I asked earlier.
  
 I would ask on Sonar forum although there seems to be a lot of one-up-manship on there at the moment.


----------



## markanini

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *interpolate* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Do I mix through the plug-in and bypass it on render?


 
 Yes.
  


interpolate said:


> The reason I ask is because of the cut in gain it applies by default or will I turn of the prevent clipping and control any volume transients using a limiter elsewhere on the Master bus.


 
 Do limiter (and all other)processing and level monitoring before the plugin and you will have zero chance of unexpected results.


----------



## RudeWolf

What he said.


----------



## Music Alchemist

rudewolf said:


> Enjoyable sound was never our promise. If you straighten out a U-curved headphone the first impression will be a 'clinical' sound, no way around it. We're okay with that, because it will result in more enjoyable mixes.


 
  
 I meant clinical in a bad way, as in synthetic and artificial, not accurate. But it's the headphone's fault more than anything. Sounded mediocre to me either way. I thought the software made the 7506 sound much more accurate, on the other hand. The compensation curve could still use some tweaking, I'd say.


----------



## RudeWolf

The problem is that both the MDR-7506 and M50x are colored headphones. When you correct both of these headphones to a neutral curve the change psychoacoustically is very different. The 7506 has that nasty treble peak which isn't euphonic to say the least. With the M50x you have a U curve which is euphonic, so getting rid of it makes it sound dull. At least until your ears have adjusted.
  
 If you can - try doing comparisons between corrected 7506 and M50x.


----------



## interpolate

OK then  it's track > mix > premaster > audition in Sonarworks and mix until it's more suitable.
  
 Thanks for the answer.


----------



## Music Alchemist

rudewolf said:


> The problem is that both the MDR-7506 and M50x are colored headphones. When you correct both of these headphones to a neutral curve the change psychoacoustically is very different. The 7506 has that nasty treble peak which isn't euphonic to say the least. With the M50x you have a U curve which is euphonic, so getting rid of it makes it sound dull. At least until your ears have adjusted.
> 
> If you can - try doing comparisons between corrected 7506 and M50x.


 
  
 They sound nothing alike, even with the calibration. This is to be expected.
  
 Even with the calibration, the M50x does not sound remotely close to neutral or accurate.
  
 Also, there is much debate over which compensation curve is neutral to human ears with headphones. There's the flat speaker curve, the Harman curve, your proprietary curve, the Golden Ears curve, and probably others.


----------



## markanini

interpolate said:


> OK then  it's track > mix > premaster > audition in Sonarworks and mix until it's more suitable.
> 
> Thanks for the answer.


 
 You can monitor with sonarworks from tracking an onward(set minimum phase for reduced latency) for a fast workflow.
  


music alchemist said:


> They sound nothing alike, even with the calibration. This is to be expected.
> 
> Even with the calibration, the M50x does not sound remotely close to neutral or accurate.
> 
> Also, there is much debate over which compensation curve is neutral to human ears with headphones. There's the flat speaker curve, the Harman curve, your proprietary curve, the Golden Ears curve, and probably others.


 
 Keep in mind 7506 has additional distortion that can make the bass range richer. What setting are you using under 'calibrate'?


----------



## Music Alchemist

markanini said:


> Keep in mind 7506 has additional distortion that can make the bass range richer. What setting are you using under 'calibrate'?


 
  
 The default "flat" preset. I'm mainly interested in high-end headphones, so this is only a backup headphone. Don't care too much about making it sound the best when it's limited in the first place. Just happy I could tame that nasty treble!


----------



## interpolate

Studio headphones like it or not will make some music sound nasty. More refined recordings will sound fantastic because nothing is being masked or compensated for. Do you really think the recording artists, producers and sound engineers spent all that time on something only for it to be changed by an "inferior" device?
  
 My ideal studio headphones would be a AKG K812 or Sennheiser HD800 because the closest I can get not having an expensive studio setup in a portable format would be like Sonic Nirvana (heavenly not the band, although I do like them) to me.


----------



## Music Alchemist

interpolate said:


> Studio headphones like it or not will make some music sound nasty. More refined recordings will sound fantastic because nothing is being masked or compensated for. Do you really think the recording artists, producers and sound engineers spent all that time on something only for it to be changed by an "inferior" device?
> 
> My ideal studio headphones would be a AKG K812 or Sennheiser HD800 because the closest I can get not having an expensive studio setup in a portable format would be like Sonic Nirvana (heavenly not the band, although I do like them) to me.


 
  
 Except those four figure headphones are much higher quality than the affordable studio monitor headphones, some of which have mediocre sound quality no matter how you EQ them. _All_ of the affordable studio monitor headphones add extra nastiness, distortion, and/or imbalanced frequencies that are not in the recording. No amount of studio engineering for a recording can make a bad headphone sound good. The recording and the headphones are separate.
  
 Personally, I want the STAX SR-009 more than anything else. Crazy expensive, especially with one of the best amps, but worth it for many. And its distortion levels are ridiculously low.


----------



## interpolate

Hence which is why it's an ideal rather than a reality....


----------



## Music Alchemist

interpolate said:


> Hence which is why it's an ideal rather than a reality....


 
  
 Exactly. Wish we could have perfect headphones or speakers, but it's just a dream, which we can get closer to, but probably never truly attain.
  
 By the way, I'm going to hear the HE1000, Abyss, HD 800, and probably others in a few hours! With my own music too.


----------



## interpolate

I would not hesitate to buy either of those headphones I mentioned, if the money was more easily attainable. Personally I don't see those a dream alas more a benchmark level of what I am aiming for. Simply because they will don't be getting paired with a FiiO DAP or similar, they will be getting used for monitoring and referencing strictly. As great as my AKG K702 are, I just need something more in the ballpark in terms of headphone to speaker accuracy.


----------



## RudeWolf

You'd be surprised how much TOTL headphones deviate from our reference curve. We have calibrated the LCD-2, HD800, K1000...
  
 And for the record, I think that nasty sound is not something that denotes a good studio headphone. You could keep a pair of grot box speakers for secondary checks, but you absolutely need to know how they colour the sound and WHY they sound nasty. Primary monitors must be neutral and the majority of neutral speakers actually do sound good (and most of studio headphones are anything but neutral).


----------



## Music Alchemist

rudewolf said:


> You'd be surprised how much TOTL headphones deviate from our reference curve. We have calibrated the LCD-2, HD800, K1000...


 
  
 You should include presets in your software for them! So many more people would buy it. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Also: http://cdn.head-fi.org/a/a9/a9650bb7_Sennheiser_HD800_Frequency_Response_HRTF.png
  
 My friend mislabeled the graph. The green line is the flat speaker HRTF and the black line is the Harman HRTF. Look how closely it follows the green line, except for that dip in the mids. Do you have an image of your reference curve that could be superimposed on that graph?


----------



## interpolate

Yes you are definitely correct there. Aren't headphones supposed to be tuned differently from speakers due to their output source and expected target?


----------



## RudeWolf

A great chance for all the mix masters out there - you can win a pair of calibrated Sony MDR-7506'es by entering Beatport's latest remix contest - Magit Cacoon - Freedom Is Timeless :: Beatport Play


----------



## SodaBoy

Any plans to implement HRTF in the future?


----------



## RudeWolf

We have thought about implementing HRTF simulation, however currently I'd rather recommend sticking with another plug-in like TB Isone. Doing a proper HRTF solution is very research intensive and there is a lot of work to be done with our current headphone and room correction software, so I wouldn't hold my breath.


----------



## SodaBoy

rudewolf said:


> We have thought about implementing HRTF simulation, however currently I'd rather recommend sticking with another plug-in like TB Isone. Doing a proper HRTF solution is very research intensive and there is a lot of work to be done with our current headphone and room correction software, so I wouldn't hold my breath.


 
 Thanks for the answer. I did think implementing HRTF was a very ambitious idea, but I felt like asking since none of the solutions I have tried so far have provided a good fit.
  
 I would also like to add that the Sonarworks UI is really well designed, you should complement your UI guy for a job well done. Soundwise, this software has provided more audible improvement than any other investment I have made in audio other than the actual headphones so pass on the complements to the rest of the team too. I will be sending in a pair of HD800s soon for individual calibration...


----------



## riverlethe

So, I downloaded a trial of the new version for my HD800's...  The calibration sounds way too bassy to me.  I get the impression that they're using a very different calibration curve from the diffuse-field that Sennheiser tried to match.  Does anyone know what curve they're using?  Perhaps a future version could allow selection between industry standard diffuse-field, free-field, the Harman curve, and whatever on earth this program is using.


----------



## RudeWolf

Our curve is not too different from what Harman is using. With that said I can imagine why switching from the standard HD800 signature the sound might feel too dark.
  
 You can decrease the bass in the plug-in as well.


----------



## riverlethe

It sounds dark compared to my calibrated stereo system.  Isn't the Harman curve already a "for pleasure" poll?  It seems strange to put another tilt or curve even on top of that, ESPECIALLY for mixing purposes.


----------



## riverlethe

Actually, your measurements for the HD650 show it to be very close to your target curve.  The HD650 is almost never considered a neutral headphone, although I wouldn't argue the desirability of it in mixing or listening - IF the user knows what he's doing.


----------



## RudeWolf

What did you use for calibrating your stereo system?
  
 Sure, the HD650 isn't perfectly neutral, no headphone is. It doesn't have the treble peak the HD800 has, which in my opinion makes it a flawed headphone.


----------



## sfoclt

BTW, the update made the extension unusable, but the email workaround got it running agian.


----------



## riverlethe

rudewolf said:


> What did you use for calibrating your stereo system?
> 
> Sure, the HD650 isn't perfectly neutral, no headphone is. It doesn't have the treble peak the HD800 has, which in my opinion makes it a flawed headphone.


 
  
 I used RoomEQ Wizard with a UMIK-1.  I only used the limited EQ and PEQ on a Pioneer receiver, but I have two subwoofers, so it's fairly flat down to 20Hz.
  
 I agree about the treble peak on the HD800, but the HD650 is equally flawed in the other direction.  Your page advertises, "We'd like to announce the official end of neverending arguments caused by different sound references."  This seems really unlikely, especially when your target curve isn't published or substantiated by research.


----------



## SodaBoy

riverlethe said:


> Actually, your measurements for the HD650 show it to be very close to your target curve.  The HD650 is almost never considered a neutral headphone, although I wouldn't argue the desirability of it in mixing or listening - IF the user knows what he's doing.


 

 And the HD800s are often considered bright and sibilant despite its strengths.
  
 I and many others do not consider diffuse field to be the end all be all. I own both the HD800 and the HD650, and neither headphone are what I'd consider to be perfect or neutral. Wide compatibility with common musical genres is the main criterion by which I discern neutrality of presentation, and the HD800 falls short of where I want it to be in this area. With the Sonarworks target curve, the HD800 became enjoyable with genres that were previously unlistenable such as metal and amplified music in general, and vocals gained proper pitch.
  
 As for the HD650 being closer to the Sonarworks target curve, that's true, but in practice the degree of correction in FR does not always intuitively correlate with perceived change due to auditory masking. The HD650 sounded very different post calibration.


----------



## riverlethe

sodaboy said:


> And the HD800s are often considered bright and sibilant despite its strengths.
> 
> I and many others do not consider diffuse field to be the end all be all. I own both the HD800 and the HD650, and neither headphone are what I'd consider to be perfect or neutral. Wide compatibility with common musical genres is the main criterion by which I discern neutrality of presentation, and the HD800 falls short of where I want it to be in this area. With the Sonarworks target curve, the HD800 became enjoyable with genres that were previously unlistenable such as metal and amplified music in general, and vocals gained proper pitch.
> 
> As for the HD650 being closer to the Sonarworks target curve, that's true, but in practice the degree of correction in FR does not always intuitively correlate with perceived change due to auditory masking. The HD650 sounded very different post calibration.




I think you're getting close to what's bothering me. "Wide compatibility with common musical genres is the main criterion by which I discern neutrality of presentation" is fine for listening enjoyment, but this product is primarily advertised towards studio professionals. Given that most mainstream American recordings sound like absolute garbage, I don't see such a forgiving target curve improving the situation.

Edit: Your preference should be achieved with the tilt or the B&K 1974 optimum Hi-fi Curve. It shouldn't be the default flat setting, as I believe it is now.


----------



## riverlethe

I believe the HD800 sound neutral with the dry/wet knob at about 50%, or the tilt set at -3dB in the bass and +3dB in the treble.  The treble peak on the HD800 is more like 3dB, whereas this curve shows it to be 6-7dB.  If I wanted Beats Studio headphones, I would've bought them!


----------



## SodaBoy

I don't need the B&K 1974 optimum Hi-Fi Curve nor do I need the tilt, and I think I know my own preferences better than you do. As for whether this is "flat" or "neutral", there is no definition. What room response are you aiming for? A live room? A dead room? I have heard many diffuse field headphones such as the Beyers that sounded hot with modern recordings. The Sonarworks curve sounds right compared to my calibrated JBL floorstanders in a typical listening room. I think any mix from this target curve would transfer well to a real world setting.
  
 I've tried a drier setting at 63%, and it sounded good but I still prefer it at 100.


----------



## riverlethe

sodaboy said:


> I don't need the B&K 1974 optimum Hi-Fi Curve nor do I need the tilt, and I think I know my own preferences better than you do. As for whether this is "flat" or "neutral", there is no definition. What room response are you aiming for? A live room? A dead room? I have heard many diffuse field headphones such as the Beyers that sounded hot with modern recordings. The Sonarworks curve sounds right compared to my calibrated JBL floorstanders in a typical listening room. I think any mix from this target curve would transfer well to a real world setting.
> 
> I've tried a drier setting at 63%, and it sounded good but I still prefer it at 100.




I never implied that you didn't know your own preferences, but there is no controversy as to what constitutes a flat frequency response. Input = output. How this translates to headphones with different head shapes, etc., leaves a lot more room for subjectivity.

May I see the graph of your JBL's?


----------



## SodaBoy

I was talking about flat perceived response, I felt this didn't need to be stated since we are talking about headphones here. There is no agreed upon consensus for a perceived flat response which is why we have so many different target curves.
  
 As for the room correction, I don't have the speakers here since I'm abroad which is why I downsized to a headphone rig in the first place. Calibration was done a while ago with TrueRTA and a Behringer ECM8000, run through JRiver convolution, crossed to the sub at 80hz. I A/B'ed it a month ago with the HD650 with avg calibration profile, and it didn't sound "dark" compared to the speakers. The presentation was different, but that was to be expected between headphones and speakers. Anyhow this isn't a speaker discussion, so I'm going to stop there.
  
 Without a published target curve, this really just boils down to purely subjective discussion. If you read the earlier discussions, markanini and I were messing around without knowing the target curve before we took it to PM. I have to say, my impressions don't mesh with yours at all, but this wouldn't be the first time in this thread as impressions are all over the place.


----------



## riverlethe

Agreed, this is purely subjective. Interestingly, my perception matches up almost perfectly with the results from the Harman study:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-wzCp-MdU-O8/UXW0GN3AlsI/AAAAAAAAAdk/Cjf-cUIylGY/s1600/Objective+Measurements.png

HP2 is obviously the HD800. They were the second most-preferred headphone in the study, so I really don't think they deviate from neutrality by 6 - 7dB.


----------



## RudeWolf

Erm... It was my understanding that these were the headphones that participated in Olive's test - 
  
 http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-rZSXkMoTbAE/UXWzRENJuHI/AAAAAAAAAdc/UNM3cMfiohc/s1600/HeadphonesTested.png
  
 Pretty sure that HP1 is Audeze LCD-2 which tonally is the complete polar opposite of HD800.


----------



## riverlethe

Right. It's LCD-2 Rev. 2, which I believe has less of a treble roll-off than most of the other LCD headphones. "Polar opposites" is quite an audiophile exaggeration.


----------



## riverlethe

Wait, what is HP2, then? K701? The graph even has the little notch in the mid-bass.


----------



## riverlethe

Hopefully, they used the same methodology in both measurements:

http://graphs.headphone.com/graphCompare.php?graphType=0&graphID[]=863&graphID[]=3221&scale=30

Edit: K701 even appears "brighter" than the HD800.

http://graphs.headphone.com/graphCompare.php?graphType=0&graphID[]=703&graphID[]=3221&graphID[]=863&scale=30


----------



## Music Alchemist

Since this is the topic of the day...
  
 HD 800

  
 LCD-2

  
 Note that the graphs are mislabeled. The green line is the diffuse-field flat speaker compensation curve while the black line is the Harman curve. You can open the images in a new tab to compare them more directly.


----------



## riverlethe

Can you post a link to the article where you found those? I found another article where Tyll says, "I did modify the curve slightly, however. Above about 5kHz, when I used the Harman curve for compensation, I found the response in that area to be significantly elevated relative to what I hear on the various headphones. I therefore changed the curve a bit by elevating this region about 1dB to 5dB as the response moved from 5kHz to 20kHz.
Read more at http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/first-test-estimated-harman-target-response-curve-various-headphones#b43IUygt0SVIw6vw.99" 

He appears to be making his own arbitrary curve based on sighting listening preference.


----------



## Music Alchemist

riverlethe said:


> Can you post a link to the article where you found those? I found another article where Tyll says, "I did modify the curve slightly, however. Above about 5kHz, when I used the Harman curve for compensation, I found the response in that area to be significantly elevated relative to what I hear on the various headphones. I therefore changed the curve a bit by elevating this region about 1dB to 5dB as the response moved from 5kHz to 20kHz.
> Read more at http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/first-test-estimated-harman-target-response-curve-various-headphones#b43IUygt0SVIw6vw.99"
> 
> He appears to be making his own arbitrary curve based on sighting listening preference.


 
  
 My friend superimposed the compensation curves over the InnerFidelity graphs. The black line (Harman curve) is based on listening preference in the first place, since it is an average of what sound people prefer.


----------



## riverlethe

Yes, I'm listening to St. Vincent on the HD800 right now. Not a hint of sibilance or bass shyness - I'm pretty confident in my position that it's the recording quality and not the frequency response of the HD800 that makes them sound bad. I see this program's target curve perpetuating low quality mastering.


----------



## riverlethe

music alchemist said:


> My friend superimposed the compensation curves over the InnerFidelity graphs. The black line (Harman curve) is based on listening preference in the first place, since it is an average of what sound people prefer.


 

  Any way to get these graphs smoothed to 1/3rd octave?  The treble seismograph isn't very helpful.​


----------



## Music Alchemist

riverlethe said:


> Yes, I'm listening to St. Vincent on the HD800 right now. Not a hint of sibilance or bass shyness - I'm pretty confident in my position that it's the recording quality and not the frequency response of the HD800 that makes them sound bad. I see this program's target curve perpetuating low quality mastering.


 
  
 The HD 800 I heard (for a few hours with my own test tracks covering most genres on a MOON Neo430HA amp/DAC) was the brightest, harshest headphone I have ever heard. Did not sound neutral, accurate, or realistic at all. The mids were somewhat lacking. I also could barely hear the bass, even on bass-heavy recordings, and many other headphones have far too much bass for me. It was obviously of a higher caliber than most more affordable headphones, and sounded pretty good as long as there wasn't high frequency content in the music, but it had serious problems. Perhaps different HD 800s have different frequency responses. I dunno. But I can turn the treble knob up _all the way_ on my speaker amp that I use with my STAX, and it's _still_ not as painfully bright as that HD 800 was.
  
 You need to listen to all genres of music to hear what a headphone really sounds like.
  


riverlethe said:


> Any way to get these graphs smoothed to 1/3rd octave?  The treble seismograph isn't very helpful.​


 
  
 No idea.


----------



## riverlethe

music alchemist said:


> The HD 800 I heard (for a few hours with my own test tracks covering most genres on a MOON Neo430HA amp/DAC) was the brightest, harshest headphone I have ever heard. Did not sound neutral, accurate, or realistic at all. The mids were somewhat lacking. I also could barely hear the bass, even on bass-heavy recordings, and many other headphones have far too much bass for me. It was obviously of a higher caliber than most more affordable headphones, and sounded pretty good as long as there wasn't high frequency content in the music, but it had serious problems. Perhaps different HD 800s have different frequency responses. I dunno. But I can turn the treble knob up _all the way_ on my speaker amp that I use with my STAX, and it's _still_ not as painfully bright as that HD 800 was.
> 
> You need to listen to all genres of music to hear what a headphone really sounds like.


 
  
 Okay, well the measurements you've shown don't support that position.  Can you give an example of one of your test tracks?


----------



## Music Alchemist

riverlethe said:


> Okay, well the measurements you've shown don't support that position.  Can you give an example of one of your test tracks?


 
  
 They do if you use the Harman curve. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 (Some say the Harman curve is what you should use for headphones, while the green line is just for speakers.)
  
 I used more or less all genres, including very good recordings.
  
 Here is an example of a song with cymbals that sounded painfully bright on the HD 800, and deep, strong bass that I could barely hear on the HD 800:
  

  
 Blaming it on the recording is just a cop-out. It's absolutely the headphone's fault.


----------



## riverlethe

The black line doesn't support your position.  It shows the LCD2 to have a treble roll-off.  That's the Harman curve, right?


----------



## riverlethe

That is a painfully bright recording on my Klipsch desktop speakers.


----------



## Music Alchemist

riverlethe said:


> The black line doesn't support your position.  It shows the LCD2 to have a treble roll-off.  That's the Harman curve, right?


 
  
 It does support my position. Look at how much higher the grey HD 800 measurements are than the black line.
  
 And yes, the LCD-2 has significant roll-off, but I haven't been discussing the LCD-2.


----------



## Music Alchemist

riverlethe said:


> That is a painfully bright recording on my Klipsch desktop speakers.


 
  
 Klipsch speakers are known to be bright. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 That was just one example, anyway. The HD 800 (at least the one I heard) makes all high frequencies sound awful and extremely emphasized.


----------



## riverlethe

LMAO


----------



## Mike F

This is not my argument, but I have to say that sounds awful - extremely thin and bright on my computer speakers and still very bright and with poor quality bass on Sony 7520's (which are usually regarded as being somewhat north of neutral in the bass).
  
 It might sound good to what I suspect is the target audience on bass-head hp's though.


----------



## Music Alchemist

There's actually a thread about this:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/646871/new-hd-800-very-different-than-the-old-hd-800
  
 Supposedly, some HD 800s are very bright with weak bass, while others are not so bright and have better bass.
  


mike f said:


> This is not my argument, but I have to say that sounds awful - extremely thin and bright on my computer speakers and still very bright and with poor quality bass on Sony 7520's (which are usually regarded as being somewhat north of neutral in the bass).
> 
> It might sound good to what I suspect is the target audience on bass-head hp's though.


 
  
 You would have to listen on a neutral system to hear what it actually sounds like. (My laptop speakers are trash, for example.) The cymbals sound fine on that track. And the bass is very deep, strong, and epic too.


----------



## Music Alchemist

Anyway, guys, I didn't mean to spark an argument here. EQ can solve many issues with headphones.
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/413900/how-to-equalize-your-headphones-a-tutorial
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/587703/how-to-equalize-your-headphones-a-tutorial-part-2
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/615417/how-to-equalize-your-headphones-advanced-tutorial-in-progress
  
 HD 800 (or any other headphone) owners: it would be interesting if you followed the instructions in those guides and shared the EQ settings, to show how much difference EQ makes.


----------



## riverlethe

I hope I don't get banned for posting measurements here:
  

  
 I had to turn the subwoofer knob almost down to zero to achieve this mild bass emphasis, but the Promedia 2.1's sound surprisingly good.


----------



## riverlethe

music alchemist said:


> Anyway, guys, I didn't mean to spark an argument here. EQ can solve many issues with headphones.
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/413900/how-to-equalize-your-headphones-a-tutorial
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/587703/how-to-equalize-your-headphones-a-tutorial-part-2
> ...


 
  
 I cut 6 - 7kHz by about 3 dB, and maybe boost 25Hz by around 5dB.


----------



## Music Alchemist

riverlethe said:


> I cut 6 - 7kHz by about 3 dB, and maybe boost 25Hz by around 5dB.


 
  
 Oh, you already do that? Then I'm sure it sounds better than the stock HD 800 I heard.
  
 Would you be willing to try out the EQ methods I linked to? It might take some work, but would be very interesting, especially if you shared the new EQ settings.


----------



## riverlethe

music alchemist said:


> Oh, you already do that? Then I'm sure it sounds better than the stock HD 800 I heard.
> 
> Would you be willing to try out the EQ methods I linked to? It might take some work, but would be very interesting, especially if you shared the new EQ settings.



 
I wasn't doing it when I listened to St. Vincent, but I picked up an old Meier amp which may have a slight warm tilt.  I'm pretty happy with it as it is.


Edit: I'm guessing you never heard Etymotic ER4's.


----------



## RudeWolf

riverlethe said:


> I hope I don't get banned for posting measurements here:
> 
> 
> 
> I had to turn the subwoofer knob almost down to zero to achieve this mild bass emphasis, but the Promedia 2.1's sound surprisingly good.


 
  
  
 That's a really good curve! At home I use a pair of Kef LS50ies with a SVS-SB2000 sub and pre-calibration it was all over the place under 200Hz. We do digital room correction as well.
  
 Here's what we measured in a typical bedroom studio environment - 
  

  
 And here's post calibration - 
  

  
  
 This is basically what enabled us to get a "flat" headphone curve. Do this calibration on a full-range system in a well treated room and you'll be able to get AFR precision down to 0.5dB. Then after months of sighted and blind testing we were able to achieve a point where putting on headphones just after listening to these speakers there was very little tonal change. Sure, tactile bass impact disappears, soundstaging changes, but it's super close and our clients say that it helps tremendously for good translating mixes.


----------



## Mike F

rudewolf said:


> That's a really good curve! At home I use a pair of Kef LS50ies with a SVS-SB2000 sub and pre-calibration it was all over the place under 200Hz. We do digital room correction as well.
> 
> Here's what we measured in a typical bedroom studio environment -
> 
> ...


 
  
 Seems like exactly the right way to do things to me.


----------



## Music Alchemist

rudewolf said:


> That's a really good curve! At home I use a pair of Kef LS50ies with a SVS-SB2000 sub and pre-calibration it was all over the place under 200Hz. We do digital room correction as well.
> 
> Here's what we measured in a typical bedroom studio environment -
> 
> ...


 
  
 Whoa. I actually plan on getting these speakers. Can you share what your EQ settings are? Or at least tell how you did it?
  
 ...Or perhaps one of your products you sell does this, so you wouldn't be willing to share for free. hehe


----------



## RudeWolf

I'd be happy to tell you what EQ I used, but it wouldn't do you any good, unless you've secretly been living in my bedroom!
  
 There's not much use to EQ speakers when it's really the room you need to fight. That's why we use 25 or more measurement spots around the listening spot to deduce what kind of correction is needed.


----------



## Music Alchemist

rudewolf said:


> I'd be happy to tell you what EQ I used, but it wouldn't do you any good, unless you've secretly been living in my bedroom!
> 
> There's not much use to EQ speakers when it's really the room you need to fight. That's why we use 25 or more calibration spots around the listening spot to deduce what kind of correction is needed.


 
  
 Yeah, that's true. So the next best thing is illustrating how the process is done, preferably without buying expensive equipment to do so. Bear in mind that many of us know little to nothing about how to do this sort of thing, so the more details, the better.


----------



## RudeWolf

Why, the process is rather simple! However explaining it would be blatant advertising and MOT terms of use doesn't allow that. 
  
 Pretty sure our webpage gives enough details.


----------



## Music Alchemist

rudewolf said:


> Why, the process is rather simple! However explaining it would be blatant advertising and MOT terms of use doesn't allow that.
> 
> Pretty sure our webpage gives enough details.


 
  
 I'll look on your website then, once I need to do this. Thanks!


----------



## markanini

Sonarworks is really easy to use for room correction. I used a cheap Dayton DMM-6 measurement mic and followed the instructions on screen. I'm just missing the ability to define my preferred Harman/JBL house curve:


----------



## RudeWolf

Just dial in some tilt in the plug-in and you should be there!


----------



## riverlethe

Now we're getting somewhere. 
  
 I see you've dropped the midrange on the HD800 by about 3dB, so maybe dropping the treble by 6dB is where it should be.  It still sounds bass-heavy to me.  Can you show a waterfall plot?


----------



## RudeWolf

riverlethe said:


> Now we're getting somewhere.
> 
> I see you've dropped the midrange on the HD800 by about 3dB, so maybe dropping the treble by 6dB is where it should be.  It still sounds bass-heavy to me.  Can you show a waterfall plot?


 
  
 Sorry, all of the HD800 have been shipped out of the lab to their happy owners (believe me, I'd love to let my guys take extra measurements, but people need their cans back to churn out mixes!). We might be able to get a pair in the following weeks, if Sennheiser EU decides to let us know where to legally buy one.


----------



## riverlethe

I meant a waterfall plot of your reference room.
  

  
 This is my "reference" system with two subwoofers, so it's not bass-shy.  Maybe I just got a lucky HD800 sample?


----------



## RudeWolf

Ah! I might try that out when I smuggle some gear from the lab. So far my curve should look pretty similar to yours. I imagine that waterfall plots at bass frequencies won't be pretty due to stuff rattling in my room. These SVS-SB2000 really pack some punch, I was able to get usable output at 10Hz with calibration. Pretty sure the THD at these frequencies is pretty killer.


----------



## markanini

rudewolf said:


> Just dial in some tilt in the plug-in and you should be there!


 
 I can try to approximate it but it's not quite close enough. No big deal as I can add in in externally. But perhaps if you added a parameter for the steepness of the bass boost one could get close? One guy reached a very similar curve by trial and error so I'm not alone in my preference:


----------



## mireque

I have to disagree that my Sonarworks custom calibrated HD800 is bass heavy. Neither the HD800 average profile sounds bass heavy to me.
  
 They're perfectly neutral to my ears - I can compare with my reference KH120 studio monitors + dual KH810 subs in my professionally treated room and even with my trusty Sony MDR-7520. My studio friends are amazed too.
  
 All three sound very similar - neutral. However, calibrated HD800's detail resolution is out of this world. My best studio monitor ever till HD800 calibration was 7520 (I even prefered them over my regular speakers). But after HD800 calibration, I have never heard something like that (and I have tried many many headphones before, even more expensive ones), and I keep using my calibrated HD800 more and more these days.
  
 I dare to say that sending my HD800 to Sonarworks HQ for individual calibration seems like a best investment I have made to my studio in past 7 years.
  

  
 These guys know for sure what they're doing. Anybody willing to give his/her HD800 a new fresh breath, I can't recommend Sonarworks enough!


----------



## Music Alchemist

mireque said:


> I have to disagree that my Sonarworks custom calibrated HD800 is bass heavy. Neither the HD800 average profile sounds bass heavy to me.
> 
> They're perfectly neutral to my ears - I can compare with my reference KH120 studio monitors + dual KH810 subs in my professionally treated room and even with my trusty Sony MDR-7520. My studio friends are amazed too.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Cool. Since you said that after calibration, it sounds perfectly neutral to you, would you be willing to also use these EQ guides and share the EQ settings and differences in sound you hear between stock, Sonarworks EQ, and the EQ derived from the guides? (The guides are designed to get your headphones to as close to neutral as possible, based on frequency sweeps and your own hearing.)
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/413900/how-to-equalize-your-headphones-a-tutorial
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/587703/how-to-equalize-your-headphones-a-tutorial-part-2
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/615417/how-to-equalize-your-headphones-advanced-tutorial-in-progress


----------



## riverlethe

mireque said:


> I have to disagree that my Sonarworks custom calibrated HD800 is bass heavy. Neither the HD800 average profile sounds bass heavy to me.
> 
> They're perfectly neutral to my ears - I can compare with my reference KH120 studio monitors + dual KH810 subs in my professionally treated room and even with my trusty Sony MDR-7520. My studio friends are amazed too.
> 
> ...


 
  
 And can you post a graph of your studio's frequency response and waterfall plots?  Sorry, but I'm no longer interested in "testimonials."


----------



## markanini

music alchemist said:


> Cool. Since you said that after calibration, it sounds perfectly neutral to you, would you be willing to also use these EQ guides and share the EQ settings and differences in sound you hear between stock, Sonarworks EQ, and the EQ derived from the guides? (The guides are designed to get your headphones to as close to neutral as possible, based on frequency sweeps and your own hearing.)
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/413900/how-to-equalize-your-headphones-a-tutorial
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/587703/how-to-equalize-your-headphones-a-tutorial-part-2
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/615417/how-to-equalize-your-headphones-advanced-tutorial-in-progress


 
 Those guides aren't really useful for creating a neutral responce for number of reasons. One being the equal loudness contour. Second, since they focus taming on sudden jumps in responce it wont do much for a warm of bright tilt which is more what you and mireque are discussing.


----------



## Music Alchemist

markanini said:


> Those guides aren't really useful for creating a neutral responce for number of reasons. One being the equal loudness contour. Second, since they focus taming on sudden jumps in responce it wont do much for a warm of bright tilt which is more what you and mireque are discussing.


 
  
 What would you recommend as the best alternative?
  
 Good point about warmer headphones. Boosting frequencies properly can be tricky. But how does this apply to the HD 800? It's not a warm headphone at all.


----------



## mireque

riverlethe said:


> And can you post a graph of your studio's frequency response and waterfall plots?  Sorry, but I'm no longer interested in "testimonials."


 
  
 Sorry, only FR graph. Flat (+/-3dB) from cca 22Hz to 20kHz.
  

  
 Dude, regarding my custom HD800 calibration and comparison above, trust me, I know what I'm talking about.


----------



## riverlethe

mireque said:


> Sorry, only FR graph. Flat (+/-3dB) from cca 22Hz to 20kHz.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Nice. Really, we're arguing about 3dB, which is within the margin for the "average" profile. I'm tempted to send mine in and see what comes back, but I really don't find them far enough away from neutral that I can't easily EQ as stated before.

Edit: I wonder if ear pad seal or "break-in" could account for this.


----------



## riverlethe

Bass decay time could also account for a "boomier" sound, but a professionally treated room _shouldn't_ have more of this than I do.


----------



## Mike F

mireque said:


> I have to disagree that my Sonarworks custom calibrated HD800 is bass heavy. Neither the HD800 average profile sounds bass heavy to me.
> 
> *They're perfectly neutral to my ears - I can compare with my reference KH120 studio monitors + dual KH810 subs in my professionally treated room and even with my trusty Sony MDR-7520*. My studio friends are amazed too.
> 
> ...


 
  
 In light of Tyll's recent measurements of and comments about the Sony 7520's, this makes me doubt your judgement! 
  
 Actually, I love my 7520's and would agree that they compare well to studio monitors, and certainly they translate well by all accounts, although I don't do any mixing myself. I also own HD800's and they're a world apart sonically, so if the calibration is bringing them close to the 7520's in any way I can see why some would say that it's bass heavy.


----------



## mireque

mike f said:


> In light of Tyll's recent measurements of and comments about the Sony 7520's, this makes me doubt your judgement!
> 
> Actually, I love my 7520's and would agree that they compare well to studio monitors, and certainly they translate well by all accounts, although I don't do any mixing myself. I also own HD800's and they're a world apart sonically, so if the calibration is bringing them close to the 7520's in any way I can see why some would say that it's bass heavy.


 
  
 I am 100% sure that Tyll made his judgements in a hurry, because the FR didn't look too "good" (flat?) to him. He should have devoted much more time to them, his pity. Just look at the curve and think again - how do you think we perceive, when summed / translated by our ears / brain, the 7520's midbass boost + high midrange cuts + highs boost?  Things are little bit complicated here.
  
 When I received my calibrated HD800, upon first listen it reminded me my 7520 and my treated room - neutral, very smooth. But 7520 also packs some punch (maybe too much for some people), that's for sure. However, it translates.
  
 So *I WOULDN'T CONCLUDE AND I HAVEN'T SAID THAT CALIBRATING HD800 WOULD BRING THEM CLOSE TO 7520* - just that they now share a similar sound signature - neutral, each to its own. Of course, HD800 wins in overall resolution.
  
 7520 will stay a perfect studio monitor forever and I am not going to retire it. But calibrated HD800 works better for me now


----------



## Mike F

mireque said:


> I am 100% sure that Tyll made his judgements in a hurry, because the FR didn't look too "good" (flat?) to him. He should have devoted much more time to them, his pity. Just look at the curve and think again - how do you think we perceive, when summed / translated by our ears / brain, the 7520's midbass boost + high midrange cuts + highs boost?  Things are little bit complicated here.


 
  
 Oh, I totally agree with you, hence the  !


----------



## Mike F

mireque said:


> So I wouldn't conclude and I haven't said that calibrating HD800 would bring them close to 7520 - *just that they now share a similar sound signature* - neutral, each to its own.


 
  
 That's exactly what I meant.


----------



## Music Alchemist

mireque said:


> 7520 will stay a perfect studio monitor forever and I am not going to retire it. But calibrated HD800 works better for me now


 
  
 Are you referring to the stock frequency response of the 7520? Because it has problems.
  
 http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/SonyMDR7520.pdf
 http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/FocalSpiritProfessional.pdf
 http://cdn.head-fi.org/f/fe/fea59a67_Focal_Spirit_Professional_Frequency_Response_HRTF.png
  
 On that third link, notice how the Focal Spirit Professional doesn't have enough mids and treble to meet either compensation curve. Both headphones have a very large dip too. When you go back and forth comparing the compensation curves to the measurements of both headphones, it's obvious that they need EQ.
  
 (For the record, I owned two Focal Spirit Professionals and like it a lot...but it's just a little too dark.)


----------



## mireque

music alchemist said:


> Are you referring to the stock frequency response of the 7520? Because it has problems.
> 
> http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/SonyMDR7520.pdf
> http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/FocalSpiritProfessional.pdf
> ...


 
 Yes, I was talking about stock 7520. Read my above posts how the stock 7520 is perceived. It's not black and white just by reading at the frequency response graphs. One cannot judge by only looking at the FR and making final decisions from it.
  
 Okay, let's keep this thread about Sonarworks Headphone calibration.


----------



## riverlethe

Headphone calibration is all about frequency response graphs. What else are we calibrating? Without seeing the target curve, and seeing how subjective perceptions are all over the map, it's hard to see how this program will end arguments about sound forever, as advertised.


----------



## riverlethe

Sony hasn't made a good headphone since the MDR-V6. 

Okay, I'll stop now...


----------



## Music Alchemist

riverlethe said:


> Sony hasn't made a good headphone since the MDR-V6.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I'm actually getting one tomorrow! Used to own the MDR-7506. I posted earlier in this thread about how the Sonarworks software dramatically improved the sound, especially in terms of taming the bright and harsh treble. People tell me the MDR-V6 is more accurate and balanced, with better bass too. Guess I'll find out when it arrives.


----------



## riverlethe

music alchemist said:


> I'm actually getting one tomorrow! Used to own the MDR-7506. I posted earlier in this thread about how the Sonarworks software dramatically improved the sound, especially in terms of taming the bright and harsh treble. People tell me the MDR-V6 is more accurate and balanced, with better bass too. Guess I'll find out when it arrives.




The V6's have been in production for thirty years, so they must have something going for them. I don't know why Sony refuses to make an updated model with the same frequency response.


----------



## Mike F

mireque said:


> Yes, I was talking about stock 7520. Read my above posts how the stock 7520 is perceived. It's not black and white just by reading at the frequency response graphs. One cannot judge by only looking at the FR and making final decisions from it.
> 
> Okay, let's keep this thread about Sonarworks Headphone calibration.


 
  
  
 Yes, this thread is about Sonarworks calibration, not about the Sony 7520, but it _is_ fundamentally about FR and what is perceived to be 'correct' or natural. I'm still not sure whether I'm surprised, or in fact, not surprised, that until this graph http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/SonyMDR7520.pdf appeared on the net the 7520 received almost universal praise - just check out the 7520 thread on here (if anyone needs reminding!), not to mention the threads on Gearslutz praising it as a mixing tool due to how well mixes done on it translate to speakers.
  
 BUT, as soon as a 'bad' looking FR graph is published, suddenly people (who might otherwise think it fantastic if they'ed heard it/mixed with it, first) won't go near it with a barge pole. The 7520 is a good example , if one was needed, of the fact that listening should be done with one's ears, not eyes.


----------



## markanini

My theory for the MDR 7520 getting so much praise is that, flaws aside, it manages a good balance between upper mid and bass ranges. Getting that right is crucial and any listener responds immediately to it, to the point that other ranges can be way off while still sounding acceptable.


----------



## Music Alchemist

I'm still wondering what your ideal alternatives for EQ are, since you think the Sonarworks software and EQ guides aren't good enough.
  
 Previous quotes included, for reference:
  


markanini said:


> Those guides aren't really useful for creating a neutral responce for number of reasons. One being the equal loudness contour. Second, since they focus taming on sudden jumps in responce it wont do much for a warm of bright tilt which is more what you and mireque are discussing.


 


music alchemist said:


> What would you recommend as the best alternative?
> 
> Good point about warmer headphones. Boosting frequencies properly can be tricky. But how does this apply to the HD 800? It's not a warm headphone at all.


----------



## markanini

music alchemist said:


> I'm still wondering what your ideal alternatives for EQ are, since you think the Sonarworks software and EQ guides aren't good enough.
> 
> Previous quotes included, for reference:


 
  
 I discussed a preference of mine that Sonarworks doesn't offer at this time and why I think the team should consider it. I don't equate that to saying Sonarworks is "not good enough", Sonarworks is owning the competition in room and speaker correction right now and the headphone correction is unique and very capable.


----------



## Music Alchemist

markanini said:


> I discussed a preference of mine that Sonarworks doesn't offer at this time and why I think the team should consider it. I don't equate that to saying Sonarworks is "not good enough", Sonarworks is owning the competition in room and speaker correction right now and the headphone correction is unique and very capable.


 
  
 I am asking what I should do to make my headphones as accurate as possible, if the Sonarworks curve and the EQ guides I linked to are not accurate enough, in your opinion.


----------



## markanini

music alchemist said:


> I am asking what I should do to make my headphones as accurate as possible, if the Sonarworks curve and the EQ guides I linked to are not accurate enough, in your opinion.


 
 I wasn't sure what you were asking for, it seemed at first like you were asking for an alternative to manual EQ to which I didn't know of any aside from what's been discussed already...Earlier in the thread I suggested 6dB tilt and 4dB bass boost. Or run it flat and use the parametric EQ values I posted to simulate the Harman house curve. Or if you don't mind IEMs get Vsonic GR07BE, they're very close to the target without EQ. I'd love to try Sonarworks correction if they ever make one for them.


----------



## Music Alchemist

markanini said:


> I wasn't sure what you were asking for, it seemed at first like you were asking for an alternative to manual EQ to which I didn't know of any aside from what's been discussed already...Earlier in the thread I suggested 6dB tilt and 4dB bass boost. Or run it flat and use the parametric EQ values I posted to simulate the Harman house curve. Or if you don't mind IEMs get Vsonic GR07BE, they're very close to the target without EQ. I'd love to try Sonarworks correction if they ever make one for them.


 
  
 Now I don't even know what you are talking about. I am talking about equalization for any headphone.


----------



## RudeWolf

music alchemist said:


> I am asking what I should do to make my headphones as accurate as possible.


 
  
 Get the lowest THD headphones you can, make sure the pads are fresh and send them in for individual calibration. Not only will you get +/-0.9dB (worst case scenario) accuracy, but also calibration for channel to channel level differences across all frequency spectrum. Don't like our reference curve? Pile on just about any EQ plug-in or choose one of the emulation curves.


----------



## Music Alchemist

rudewolf said:


> Get the lowest THD headphones you can, make sure the pads are fresh and send them in for individual calibration. Not only will you get +/-0.9dB (worst case scenario) accuracy, but also calibration for channel to channel level differences across all frequency spectrum. Don't like our reference curve? Pile on just about any EQ plug-in or choose one of the emulation curves.


 
  
 That would certainly be an easier way of going about it, at least for me. So when you do an individual calibration, you're just measuring the headphones and inputting the settings in the software, right? And then there would be an additional preset in the software that I would select?
  
 What emulation curves are you referring to?


----------



## markanini

music alchemist said:


> Now I don't even know what you are talking about. I am talking about equalization for any headphone.


 
 I have no clue what you are asking about then.


----------



## Music Alchemist

markanini said:


> I have no clue what you are asking about then.


 
  
 I'll break it down.
  

  


> I wasn't sure what you were asking for, it seemed at first like you were asking for an alternative to manual EQ to which I didn't know of any aside from what's been discussed already...


 
  
 What has been discussed already, exactly?
  
 You seemed to be saying that the Sonarworks curve is not accurate and the EQ guides aren't either, so I was just trying to figure out what I should do to make any given headphone be accurate to your standards.
  


> Earlier in the thread I suggested 6dB tilt and 4dB bass boost. Or run it flat and use the parametric EQ values I posted to simulate the Harman house curve.


 
  
 Tilt and boost from what? The stock FR of a particular headphone? A compensation curve? Please be specific.
  


> Or if you don't mind IEMs get Vsonic GR07BE, they're very close to the target without EQ.


 
  
 Which target?


----------



## markanini

@Music Alchemist We have gone through this already. There's nothing wrong with Sonarworks accuracy. I just have a different preference for the target, specifically i prefer the Harman target. You should take a closer look at Sonarworks interface where you'll find the tilt, bass boost and emulation controls.


----------



## Music Alchemist

markanini said:


> @Music Alchemist We have gone through this already. There's nothing wrong with Sonarworks accuracy. I just have a different preference for the target, specifically i prefer the Harman target. You should take a closer look at Sonarworks interface where you'll find the tilt, bass boost and emulation controls.


 
  
 Oh, so you're saying tilt and boost in the Sonarworks software after the calibration has been activated. I understand now.


----------



## RudeWolf

music alchemist said:


> That would certainly be an easier way of going about it, at least for me. So when you do an individual calibration, you're just measuring the headphones and inputting the settings in the software, right? And then there would be an additional preset in the software that I would select?
> 
> What emulation curves are you referring to?


 
  
  
 We measure, analyze for measurement artifacts, generate a custom calibration profile and do listening tests to confirm the result. In the end you get an additional calibration profile and a tech passport with before/after graphs of AFR and THD.
  
 I was referring to "Simulate" section in the plug-in or the selection of "Predefined" reference curves. Both introduce a deviation from our neutral curve.


----------



## Syliano

Kinda digging this plugin while listening to music with my focal spirit pro, gonna test mixing on them in a bit. Will report back!


----------



## RudeWolf

Great! We found the Focals to be a bit peaky. With calibration the overall sound and response curve gets a lot smoother.


----------



## Music Alchemist

rudewolf said:


> Great! We found the Focals to be a bit peaky. With calibration the overall sound and response curve gets a lot smoother.


 
  
 Peaky?
  

  
 It doesn't even have enough mids and treble to meet either of the two most popular compensation curves. I owned two of them and never thought it was peaky. In fact, it sounded rather dark. The peaks at 10 kHz and above aren't the type of thing you notice as much as, say, at 5 kHz. I would hope that your compensation curve at least increases some of the mids. Too bad I don't have the FSP anymore, but I may end up buying a third one sooner or later.


----------



## Syliano

rudewolf said:


> Great! We found the Focals to be a bit peaky. With calibration the overall sound and response curve gets a lot smoother.


 
 Pretty nice plugin, but do you after you have mixed a song with it keep the plugin activated when listening on speakers or bouncing out a mix or do you turn it off? 
  
 I'm seriously considering buying it, the translation is phenomenal. Mixing and sample choice decisions are so much easier.


----------



## markanini

syliano said:


> Pretty nice plugin, but do you after you have mixed a song with it keep the plugin activated when listening on speakers or bouncing out a mix or do you turn it off?



Turn if off before bounce/mixdown.


----------



## Syliano

markanini said:


> Turn if off before bounce/mixdown.


 
 Thanks, I thought so myself but I wasn't sure haha


----------



## RudeWolf

markanini said:


> Turn if off before bounce/mixdown.


 
  
 Yup! The plug-in doesn't make your mixes better, your decisions improve them!


----------



## Syliano

rudewolf said:


> Yup! The plug-in doesn't make your mixes better, your decisions improve them!


 
 What is the best level to set the output meter at while mixing? It's default setting is -15db which lowers the volume of the output signal a lot, but why exactly when the input signal isn't coming in hot (over 0 db)? 
 I see you can't go higher than -6db when avoid clipping is on?


----------



## riverlethe

It lowers volume to prevent clipping with EQ boosts, which you should always be careful of with EQ.


----------



## Syliano

riverlethe said:


> It lowers volume to prevent clipping with EQ boosts, which you should always be careful of with EQ.


 
 Yeah but whats the benefit when nothing is clipping except a lower volume?


----------



## riverlethe

If the plugin is boosting less than 15dB, you should be able to move the slider up some.


----------



## edwardsean

This is fantastic software.
  
 I've been trying to physically mod my HD800 following the Anax, Tyll route. However, as Stefanarts notes, this may not be the best strategy. I've found it too blunt a method, which dampens frequencies I want as well as those I don't. So, as with Bob Katz, I'm a believer in the surgical precision of EQs to fix the spectral issues of headphones. However, even with a bunch of professional grade EQs, I could not manually dial in the level of sophistication in the curves that Sonarworks achieves. 
  
 Don't know why no one else has brought this approach to market before. Just brilliant!


----------



## RudeWolf

Hey guys!
  
 Thanks for the great feedback!
  
 Ask if you need anything answered!


----------



## peepr

subbing to try this out tonight...I've got HE-400S, can I use a FR graph to help calibrate this myself?
  
 Or can I use my USB mic? or will a non-profiled headphone really only work if you send it in to get analyzed?


----------



## dmbr

Could someone please explain what exactly the "wet/dry" knob does?

Also, should this VST go at the beginning or end of my DSP chain?


----------



## RudeWolf

dmbr said:


> Could someone please explain what exactly the "wet/dry" knob does?
> 
> Also, should this VST go at the beginning or end of my DSP chain?


 
  
 It changes the magnitude in which the correction is applied. And our plug-in should always be the last in any chain - think of it as a speaker crossover.


----------



## Gammon2004

I'm finding this to be a really great tool used together with Audio Hijack so that it is applied to everything coming out of the computer.  Does anyone know how to post a review of the Software on this site?  I can't seem to find a page for it that might allow me to post the review.  It doesn't technically fit in any of the categories available for Head Gear, I suppose, though it generally belongs in Computer Audio.


----------



## dmbr

Since this VST is supposed to be used at the end of the DSP chain, is there any sense in using it with Darin Fong's OOYH? It's a surround sound virtualization for headphones which uses a virtual device to implement itself, not a VST, so the effects must be last in the chain.

Put more simply, will applying a DSP like OOYH (which does affect EQ) on top of Sonarworks undo the refinements?


----------



## edwardsean

dmbr said:


> Since this VST is supposed to be used at the end of the DSP chain, is there any sense in using it with Darin Fong's OOYH? It's a surround sound virtualization for headphones which uses a virtual device to implement itself, not a VST, so the effects must be last in the chain.
> 
> Put more simply, will applying a DSP like OOYH (which does affect EQ) on top of Sonarworks undo the refinements?


 

 I've already posted this on the OOYH thread, but Sonarworks and OOYH is a thing of beauty. You can setup OOYH at the end of the chain through AudioHijack, _but_ in this arrangement OOYH should go _at the end_. It gets pretty complex, but generally gain-based DSP (compression, EQ) should precede time-based (delay and reverb) effects. OOYH can be thought of as the latter.


----------



## dmbr

edwardsean said:


> I've already posted this on the OOYH thread, but Sonarworks and OOYH is a thing of beauty. You can setup OOYH at the end of the chain through AudioHijack, _but_ in this arrangement OOYH should go _at the end_. It gets pretty complex, but generally gain-based DSP (compression, EQ) should precede time-based (delay and reverb) effects. OOYH can be thought of as the latter.


 Thanks! I've been enjoying the combination but wanted to dispel the nagging uncertainty that it's in my head--no pun intended


----------



## Syliano

Fyi:
  
 Something  I noticed is that with Sonarworks reference vst, comparing to the HD650 the Focals soundwise change more. The Focals almost sound like a different headphone with sonarworks compared to the hd650 which only gets some more bass extension tbh.


----------



## dmbr

When using this with Dolby Headphone, should SonarWorks be before or after DH in the chain?

Before, like OOYH I'm assuming...but want to make sure.


----------



## Syliano

dmbr said:


> When using this with Dolby Headphone, should SonarWorks be before or after DH in the chain?


 
 I'd say before, I think you'd get some weird results if you put a frequency changing plugin after an surround sound changing plugin. You want to make surround sound out of the changed sound not change the sound of the surround sound. My 2 cents though, i might be wrong


----------



## Mike F

syliano said:


> Fyi:
> 
> Something  I noticed is that with Sonarworks reference vst, comparing to the HD650 the Focals soundwise change more. The Focals almost sound like a different headphone with sonarworks compared to the hd650 which only gets some more bass extension tbh.


 
  
  
 Ha! What does that tell you!


----------



## edwardsean

syliano said:


> I'd say before, I think you'd get some weird results if you put a frequency changing plugin after an surround sound changing plugin. You want to make surround sound out of the changed sound not change the sound of the surround sound. My 2 cents though, i might be wrong


 

 I agree exactly.
  
 The opposing argument is that, in this instance, you are not correcting the EQ for the source. In other words the source "signal" coming from your audio file/player software is fine. The EQ you're compensating for is at the end of the chain, that is, your headphone/speakers. This is why Sonarworks should generally be at the end of the DSP chain before the headphone/speakers. 
  
 However, the exception is any room/surround emulation effects. These should do the end processing. Whatever, the theoretical principles, Syliano is right. Putting Sonarworks after surround software yields "weird results."


----------



## Syliano

mike f said:


> Ha! What does that tell you!




I'm almost afraid to say it, but the hd650 is flatter than the focals? I prefer them over the focals anyway, I just love the more spacious sound of the 650 I've heard people say the hd650 will make anything sound good, I beg to differ. I've heard some very bad sounding recordings, which I didn't think where that bad, while going to my music library. I kind of prefer the hd650 without the sonarworks plugin for music listening purposes. I can imagine the extra bass extension comes in handy when producing and mixing, but thats about it.


----------



## Mike F

syliano said:


> I'm almost afraid to say it, but the hd650 is flatter than the focals?


 
  
 Or closer to the 'correct' curve that the Sonarworks calibration achieves, at least.
  
 In other words, even though they are not flat they give a (uncorrected) sound which is closer to reality (or Sonarworks version of realty, or what is deemed to be 'correct') than some others which may be flatter.


----------



## Syliano

mike f said:


> Or closer to to 'correct' curve that Sonarworks calibration achieves at least. In other words, even though they are nor flat they give a (uncorrected) sound which is closer to reality than some others which maybe flatter.


 
 Makes sense!


----------



## dmbr

edwardsean said:


> I agree exactly.
> 
> The opposing argument is that, in this instance, you are not correcting the EQ for the source. In other words the source "signal" coming from your audio file/player software is fine. The EQ you're compensating for is at the end of the chain, that is, your headphone/speakers. This is why Sonarworks should generally be at the end of the DSP chain before the headphone/speakers.
> 
> However, the exception is any room/surround emulation effects. These should do the end processing. Whatever, the theoretical principles, Syliano is right. Putting Sonarworks after surround software yields "weird results."


Thanks very much, guys


----------



## RudeWolf

The HD650/600 are one the most neutral cans we've measured. They need some help at the low end and some straightening up top, but other than that... Tonality wise there isn't much that comes close.


----------



## Syliano

rudewolf said:


> The HD650/600 are one the most neutral cans we've measured. They need some help at the low end and some straightening up top, but other than that... Tonality wise there isn't much that comes close.


 
 So my ears were not mistaken , very happy to hear that!


----------



## Mike F

rudewolf said:


> The HD650/600 are one the most neutral cans we've measured. They need some help at the low end and some straightening up top, but other than that... Tonality wise there isn't much that comes close.


 

 It's what many have thought for years. And the HD800's?


----------



## RudeWolf

mike f said:


> It's what many have thought for years. And the HD800's?


 
  
 Sorry to say, but in their stock form they are anything but neutral. Mainly due to the famous treble peak. These headphone have very good calibration potential, but I find them borderline unlistenable stock. Pretty sure that many people spend half their audiophile life looking for coloured gear to calm the treble down. I'd rather slap on one of the dampening ring mods.


----------



## edwardsean

Are there plans to calibrate the Abyss? If not, is it possible to send in a prayer for custom calibration?


----------



## RudeWolf

edwardsean said:


> Are there plans to calibrate the Abyss? If not, is it possible to send in a prayer for custom calibration?


 
  
 Sure, insure yours, ship it to us and we'll do our best to calibrate it. Pretty sure the customs will love it.
  
 Honestly, it's a real pain to generate profiles for super expensive cans. We either have to buy them or wait for enough to come in for individual calibration.


----------



## audiowanderer

Hi,
 I successfully activated the trial version of sonarworks headphone plugins("not purchased" red message) along with vsthost(free software). The problem is that after I load the plugin, through vsthost and reach the settings' interface the add curve button, where you can load new headphone curves, is inactive.
  
 first picture:
 http://sonarworks.com/2015/02/sonarworks-reference-3-headphone-calibration-plug/
  
 Actually, the only active buttons are calibrate, simulate and advanced. Nothing else seems to work and the power button of the plugin(down right, in the picture) is red. Any suggestions?
  
 Thanks in advance.


----------



## Gammon2004

I'm not entirely sure what you're describing, but I know I was confused at first because the plugin was set to 'speaker' instead of 'headphone' - it's the little slider on the top right that toggles between those two modes.  Maybe you're set on speaker mode?


----------



## audiowanderer

Thanks for the response. No there isn't such problem.
  
 I forgot to say that I'm using Windows 10 pro 64 bit. I have tried on both versions(32 and 64 bit) of VSThost and Dark Wave Studio 4.9.8. . Other plugins work perfectly. I 've also emailed them more than one day ago.
  
 Here is a picture of the problem. Only three buttons are active, nothing else, not even the slider on the right. Although sound can be passed through the plugin and input/output bars show activity:
  

  
  
 and the screen after successful trial activation:
  

  
  
 The chain is virtual cable output--> input engine --> reference3.dll(plugin) --> output engine -->(speakers) xonar stx
  
 Remaining time is 20 days.


----------



## RudeWolf

Does this persist when you load an actual calibration profile?


----------



## audiowanderer

Hello Rude Wolf. The fact is I can't load any profile. The add button is greyed out like the rest.


----------



## audiowanderer

I recently tested it as administrator, logged in as administrator, changed permissions... still nothing. Very strange behaviour. Is it even compatible with windows 10?
 Can I uninstall and reinstall it, or will this terminate the trial?
  
*OK SOLVED. I figured it out.* You need to activate it logged in as administrator. Then instead of "not purchased" it reads "20 days".
  
 Thanks for your interest.


----------



## RudeWolf

Cool! How did you like the sound?


----------



## audiowanderer

First, I want to clarify that I'm just an audiophile who likes professional, namely unfatiguing, sound. I was seeking ways to improve my dt990 pro. Make them sound closer to my HD650.
  
 The reference3 plugin sounds more or less unhyped, as you said, apart from the bass which can be bloated on many songs. Otherwise, the end result is very similar to what I achieved manually by using the goldenears.net measurements as a reference. Their methods are pseudoscientific and have been criticised heavily by many, however their measurements correspond very well to what I perceive(and your charts). 
  
 Regarding bass, I don't think there is a flaw in your methodology. The problem is most dynamics can't reproduce loud, undistorted bass and that is mainly the reason why we see a steep roll off. Strong distorted bass subjectively sounds ever louder and unpleasant. IMHO, it would be best If you could restrict your filters in the 100Hz-10.000Khz range. As Dr Sean Olive from Harman noticed, the frequency extremes can be influenced by so many factors that it's not meaningful to try correcting them.
 Say your measurements show a 10db drop at 14Khz. You can't be sure if this deviation corresponds to what everyone will hear and If you apply eq in order to correct it you must then lower the total spl by 10db, stealing power from your amp. All for an uncertain result.
  
 That's all from me. Keep up the good work.


----------



## moshen

Just tried this on my HD800. Using 70% wet and +1 bass boost (100% makes the HD800 sound too dark). Result is amazing, makes me go from wanting to sell the HD800 to loving it.


----------



## Kaffeemann

Hmm, I entered my email for the trial but didn't get a mail. That was a couple days ago. Somebody else with that problem?


----------



## RudeWolf

We've been getting some reports lately. Please send a message to support@sonarworks.com and they will sort your troubles out!


----------



## Paradigm

I seem to be having an issue with activating the software. When I try to configure the dsp in foorbar the sonarworks window opens up but it's essentially frozen and I can't click anything on it.
  

  
 Any ideas what is causing this?
  
  
 UPDATE: Just Installed Jriver, and the plug in is now letting me select the menu to enter code. I have never used Jriver and have no intentions on sticking with it, as I much prefer Foobar with VST 2.4 adapter, by Yegor Petrov. Anyone got this to work with foobar?


----------



## edwardsean

Hi, 
  
 For anyone using Sonarworks with the HD800 I got the go ahead to re-post this alternate profile: THIS. 
  
 The stock HD800 profile was slightly rolled off at both ends of the spectrum. Full bandwidth correction requires quite a lot of power to compensate in the sub-bass frequencies. Sonarworks needed to cover the range of endusers especially engineering pros who don't necessarily have high power audiophile headphone amps. If your amp has drive to spare give this profile a shot. Personally, I really prefer it to the stock profile. 
  
 Also, you may have heard that Sennheiser is getting ready to release the updated HD800s. I would've been excited were it not for the fact that, with Sonarworks, there's nothing more I want from the old HD800.


----------



## dmbr

edwardsean said:


> Hi,
> 
> For anyone using Sonarworks with the HD800 I got the go ahead to re-post this alternate profile: THIS.
> 
> ...


 
 Awesome! Would you mind instructing me as to how to install the profile?


----------



## edwardsean

Hi, 
  
 It's real simple. You just copy the downloaded profile to the folder where all the profiles are stored: "Sonarworks Projects."
  
 On a Mac it should be right in your user folder.  I'm not sure where it is on Windows. 
  
 Once copied there, it will show up under your profile options to load. 
  
 Again, the folks at Sonarworks say that you'll lose about 12.5db of sensitivity to avoid clipping, so you need a good amount of power in your amp. 
  
  
 Best of luck.


----------



## dmbr

edwardsean said:


> Hi,
> 
> It's real simple. You just copy the downloaded profile to the folder where all the profiles are stored: "Sonarworks Projects."
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks, figured it out. Really appreciate the tip  Amp is handling it fine (Xonar Essence One Muses)


----------



## derbigpr

I've been playing around with this a bit on HD600's and it seems like it does exactly what I do manually with a 31 band EQ by making a compensation curve according to the graphs available online, in fact, even the volume is reduced by exactly 6.7db to prevent clipping when flat curve is enabled, just like with my manual compensating curve. Maybe it's a bit more precise with Sonarworks, but tuned to a flat response it sounds pretty much identical to my own manual curve and I guess having 1600 reference points is the same as having 31 in this case, at least from what I can hear. 
  
 The issue with HD600's is that pretty much the only thing that's drastically changed about it is the sub bass, the rest of the sound is already nearly flat, so there's actually very little change in the sound with and without the flat curve enabled, and the headphone drivers physically cannot produce significantly more sub bass that would make them flat, it just doesn't happen, boosting anything under 80hz by more than 4 db just makes it lose control and sound all wobbly and almost muddy. I tried playing with other curves, like the GS1000 Grado curve, and it doesn't sound good at all, neither does the K712 one, they make the HD600's sound nothing like those headphones. I don't know what is up with that, but it sounds totally wrong and absolutely nothing like either of those headphones, in fact, it sounds plain bad with the K712 simulation enabled. But that was not my interest in the first place, I just wanted to hear what it would do to HD600's, and it does improve them slightly overall, making them ever so slightly more neutral, and that bit of sub bass adds a bit of weight to the sound, but again, not enough to make them flat, because the drivers physically cannot produce enough bass to be flat without screwing with the rest of the frequency spectrum, I guess the basically 30 year old driver designs is showing it's age and absolutely cannot extend as deep as the newer stuff. 
  
 I don't currently have any other headphones with me that are supported, but I do have HD650's, DT770 (80 and 250) and DT880's, as well as the M40X and M50X at home, so I'll try playing with them for a while when I get home, maybe the results with them will be more drastic, HD600's are just too flat to begin with and don't really need much work anyway.
  
 I guess my biggest critique of software like this, not this one in particular, but plug ins like this one in general, is that they don't work on the level of an operating system, so I can't use the EQ settings all the time, with everything I do on the computer, and it just works when listening to music in foobar2000 for example.  Again with HD600's that's not a problem, but with some other stuff like DT770 80 for example it could be the saving grace, and would enable me to enjoy them while watching movies, playing games, watching videos on youtube, etc. whereas now they're unusable for those applications due to their recessed mids and thin character in everything that doesn't involve a lot of bass.
  
 In general it's a step in the right direction, in the future DSP's will play a much bigger role than most old-fashioned audiophiles are willing to accept at this point. Especially when it comes to making headphones sound less like headphones. and more like speakers or the real world.


----------



## dmbr

edwardsean said:


> Hi,
> 
> For anyone using Sonarworks with the HD800 I got the go ahead to re-post this alternate profile: THIS.
> 
> ...





edwardsean said:


> Hi,
> 
> For anyone using Sonarworks with the HD800 I got the go ahead to re-post this alternate profile: THIS.
> 
> ...


 Sadly, I found that profile made the highs too harsh and sharp on my setup; sort of like sybilance. Interesting to try though!


----------



## edwardsean

dmbr said:


> Sadly, I found that profile made the highs too harsh and sharp on my setup; sort of like sybilance. Interesting to try though!


 

 Definitely, as with anything, it's taste and system synergy in the end. I'm using other DSP and a Moon Neo 430HA, and the highs are detailed but very smooth.
  
 I'm really happy these days that DSP has evolved to where it is. The driver design on the HD800 is fairly dated at this point, but I'm consistently amazed at how well they scale. For me, this alternate profile also adds in the sub-bass region that the HD800 is capable of reproducing, but doesn't manage natively.


----------



## pieman3141

Hi! I downloaded the trial version a few days ago, and I'm unable to load (or find) any presets. Also, I cannot change any EQ settings, and I'm unable to get any bars or lines apart from the red line. Only the Calibrate and Simulate buttons work, and I'm presented with a very limited selection.

I'm on OS X 10.11, running Vox 2.6 with Apple AU as my plugin manager.


----------



## derbigpr

edwardsean said:


> Definitely, as with anything, it's taste and system synergy in the end. I'm using other DSP and a Moon Neo 430HA, and the highs are detailed but very smooth.
> 
> I'm really happy these days that DSP has evolved to where it is. *The driver design on the HD800 is fairly dated at this point*, but I'm consistently amazed at how well they scale. For me, this alternate profile also adds in the sub-bass region that the HD800 is capable of reproducing, but doesn't manage natively.


 
  
  
 Ridiculous!  It's nowhere near being dated, and won't be for the next 15-20 years. In terms of engineering it's still the most accomplished dynamic driver out there when it comes to headphones, and possibly the best engineered driver when it comes to headphones, full stop, regardless of type. Anyway, nothing else that came out after the HD800's were released comes close to it in the dynamic driver world. The driver is actually limited by the enclosure design, and you could get various types of sound signatures out of it, even in closed, fully sealed headphones, as many people realized when using the HD800's driver in DIY projects. 
  
 Anyway, we've reached a point in driver quality where going further would bring little advantage. The future of high end headphones is in digital sound processing, compensating curves that are tailored to each specific person, and various effects that will compensate the shortcomings of headphones on a neurophysiological level and that will compensate for the imbalances in the human hearing (no person has the exact same "frequency response" in both ears, that leads to huge problems in imaging while using headphones, due to the driver being so close to the ear and the interaction with the outer ear as a result of that proximity). Only by doing that will we achieve sound from headphones that will truly mimic sounds from the real world or even speakers in a good room. It's just unfortunate that all the attempts so far in doing that were inadequate at best, reason being, most of those plug-ins and apps are made by sound engineers, who (no offense) have nowhere near enough understanding of human hearing on a neurophysiological level, and therefore can't achieve good results. When medical experts start infiltrating the audio industry and start working with electrical engineers, only then we will have real advances in this technology. I might do that exact thing, considering I have a mechanical engineering degree already, and in two years I'll have a medical degree, combining these two will lead to amazing results, I already have plenty of ideas and am working on some with very promising results.  The problem is, all the equipment required is expensive, and designing and building my own is out of the question in the next 7 years at least, until I finish my specialization.


----------



## dmbr

edwardsean said:


> Definitely, as with anything, it's taste and system synergy in the end. I'm using other DSP and a Moon Neo 430HA, and the highs are detailed but very smooth.
> 
> I'm really happy these days that DSP has evolved to where it is. The driver design on the HD800 is fairly dated at this point, but I'm consistently amazed at how well they scale. For me, this alternate profile also adds in the sub-bass region that the HD800 is capable of reproducing, but doesn't manage natively.


 How perfect...I added an Uptone USB Regen to my chain and now your profile sounds better.

Point proven  

And now to fiddle with wet/dry!


----------



## Muziqboy

Hey Guys, maybe somebody can help me out here. I am running Win7 32-bit Home edition on a Dell Inspiron 14Z laptop with JRiver MC20 and everytime I tried to install the Reference 3 plug-in, it says Failed to install plug-in. I've tried it so many times and even re-formatted the drive and re-installed Windows 7 to no avail. 
  
 Has anybody ran into this problem before?


----------



## Alec246

I've been testing this plugin with my HD558! I removed the Foam from inside the Headphone, so I think it sounds more like a HD598 now, and that's the Profile I've been using.

I noticed some small changes after calibration, mostly on the Bass side, but it's very subtle. I wonder if the HD598 is that good of a Headphone, that the sound is so good with or without calibration?

I plan on getting an Apogee Groove to use with my HD558, I expect some improve in sound quality, specially since I've been using my interface amp which has wrong impedance for the Sennheiser


----------



## phoenixdogfan

The problem you are having is caused by using the wrong VST plug in.  There is a 64 bit plug in and a 32 bit plug in.  When you install the Sonarwworks software, I would be sure to install both plug ins.  ​
  
 One plug  in is stored in the program files (x86) directory in the VST plugins subdirectory, the other in the program files drectory, VST files subdirectory.  If one file will not install on JRIVER, I guarantee the other one will.


----------



## Muziqboy

I tried both 32 and 64 bit plug-ins but it still fails to install on my laptop. Anyway, I installed it on my Desktop computer and it installed without any problems so I am experimenting with it now. I would have liked it on my laptop so I can take it with me anywhere but I guess I'll just have to try it again later on.

Listening to this with my HD800 and using it's model curve for it, all I can say is WOW! A lot more bass definition and it tamed that 6khz spike. I am liking it a lot.


----------



## Syliano

derbigpr said:


> Ridiculous!  It's nowhere near being dated, and won't be for the next 15-20 years. In terms of engineering it's still the most accomplished dynamic driver out there when it comes to headphones, and possibly the best engineered driver when it comes to headphones, full stop, regardless of type. Anyway, nothing else that came out after the HD800's were released comes close to it in the dynamic driver world. The driver is actually limited by the enclosure design, and you could get various types of sound signatures out of it, even in closed, fully sealed headphones, as many people realized when using the HD800's driver in DIY projects.
> 
> Anyway, we've reached a point in driver quality where going further would bring little advantage. The future of high end headphones is in digital sound processing, compensating curves that are tailored to each specific person, and various effects that will compensate the shortcomings of headphones on a neurophysiological level and that will compensate for the imbalances in the human hearing (no person has the exact same "frequency response" in both ears, that leads to huge problems in imaging while using headphones, due to the driver being so close to the ear and the interaction with the outer ear as a result of that proximity). Only by doing that will we achieve sound from headphones that will truly mimic sounds from the real world or even speakers in a good room. It's just unfortunate that all the attempts so far in doing that were inadequate at best, reason being, most of those plug-ins and apps are made by sound engineers, who (no offense) have nowhere near enough understanding of human hearing on a neurophysiological level, and therefore can't achieve good results. When medical experts start infiltrating the audio industry and start working with electrical engineers, only then we will have real advances in this technology. I might do that exact thing, considering I have a mechanical engineering degree already, and in two years I'll have a medical degree, combining these two will lead to amazing results, I already have plenty of ideas and am working on some with very promising results.  The problem is, all the equipment required is expensive, and designing and building my own is out of the question in the next 7 years at least, until I finish my specialization.


 
 QFT, I wanted to say the same thing but I couldn't be arsed tbh.  But well spoken!


----------



## DDF

Spent a couple hours with the trial on SRH-840s, a few findings.  For reference, main system at home is 2 way + sub, 2 ways custom designed, better than +/-1dB on axis, and sub digs to 25 Hz flat, all set up and in room for nuetrality, with MLLSA
  
 - bit challenging to install on foobar, a good user guide would save 30 mins
 - great UI, _really_ well done and intuitive!
 - B&K house curve target is meant for RTA measured speaker/room systems measured with long time windows.  It doesn't represent what you hear as tonal balance, as the direct sound (not so much the room) with speakers strongly dominate perceived timbre above 500Hz.  Below 500hz it's a pretty accurate reflection of timbre.   So, not surprisingly, it sounds muffled using B&K curve.  I listened using "flat" as the baseline
 - the eq did a really great job removing the excess bite and splash in the upper mid range of the SRH840, especially evident with classical, and removing the 150 Hz mud, but IMO added too much bloat to the lower bass.  The bass and tilt controls do a perfect job to fine tune this to taste.  Smart and very useful design
 - Playing pink noise helps immensely to dial the eq in.  With pink noise, the effect is anything but subtle and it makes an obvious large improvement
 - The wet/dry is a brilliant little feature and allows the amount of EQ to be reduced subtly, a bit at a time.  Its not subtle what 1 or 2 dB change sounds like over a a couple octaves
  
 Overall did it sound better?  Definitely, much, after the fine tuning.  I guess this is to be expected, we all have different hrtf's.
  
 The only really big drawback, and to me its a big one, is the excessive EQ applied above 15 kHz (+15 dB), where you won't really hear it, or there is so little musical information that it barely matters.  It's just not worth it, as you either risk high frequency clipping on peaks, or have to reduce the level 15 dB, requiring an external headphone amp and losing 2.5 bits.  I turned it off, set the eq a bit drier, and used 10 dB level reduction manually and could still (just) get enough level without an external HD amp.    I think much better solution would have been to limit the amount high frequency boost to equal the low frequency boost (or at least within a 4 or 5 dB), and then have the gain reduced by that amount instead of 15 dB.  The flat graph is pretty on paper but just impractical, better to limit the boost above 15 kHz.
  
 Over-all a nice equalizer


----------



## RiddleyWalker

Just tried the demo out last night via Foobar w/ VST wrapper and the HD650 average plugin on my HD650's, and I've gotta say, really impressed with what I've heard so far.  Still tweaking the settings to dial in what works for me, but the sub-bass extension and bass-to-mids transition saw an awesome improvement.  Clarity in the highs and air/soundstage also improved.
  
 The "flat" setting on default settings was way too strong with bass, but once you get the bass/tilt and wet/dry dialed in, I was really surprised to hear how well the HD650's can handle sub-bass rumble without distortion.  
  
 And, since the this headphone already has relatively linear FR, it doesn't sound overly processed or weird when applying correction, assuming you adjust the settings from "flat" to your preferences.  Still sounds like an HD650, but enhanced.
  
 I agree with those in this thread (and elsewhere) that have stated headphone-specific DSP/EQ is the future.  DACs and amps can provide appreciable improvements in sound quality certainly, but if you are looking for a specific sort of correction to your headphones' sound (i.e. HD800 4k peak, HD650 sub-bass, etc), intelligent EQ is really the best way to handle it.  Or at the very least, something to consider before spending $1000's on upstream hardware.
  
 Definitely considering the purchase, keep up the good work Sonarworks!


----------



## hekeli

@RudeWolf
  


> Use the "Set optimum" button to automatically select a custom curve that matches the original overall spectral balance of your speakers.


 
  
 What speakers is this info text talking about? Is it the neutral studio monitor reference from you, or some speaker settings from Sonarworks?
  
 Just curious since the "Flat" preset sounds pretty crap and bloated with HD600 and HD800, while using Custom / Set optimum sounds quite neutral on both to me (that's pretty much what I'm using..). Seems like the optimum curve should be a "Flat" preset.. (or it's just a case of confusing "flat" as "neutral"..)


----------



## RudeWolf

"Set optimum" attempts to replicate your original tonality in general terms. In other words, it keeps the calibration for small dips and peaks, but leaves larger irregularities intact. It's useful for people who have problems coping with the change of tonal balance (Where did my bass/highs go?).


----------



## hekeli

Ahh.. shouldn't it read "spectral balance of your headphones" to reduce confusion, since this is the headphone plugin..


----------



## BlueBits

Using it with DT880 600Ohm using the 250Ohm calibration profile and it really adds a rich flavor to vocals as well as the mids, the DT880s sound a lot better with the software.
  
 I tried the profile for DT990 600Ohm using the 250Ohm profile but the change is less desired due to the relative neutrality that DT990s seem to have after losing their signature oomph bass and sharp treble. 
  
 I bought the 880s just to experience the mids that the 990s lack. With SonarWorks Reference 3 I seem to get more than I bargained for.
  
 Happy times!


----------



## dmbr

I just disabled the VST after using it for a couple months with my HD800's and I'm a little sad...

While the mids and highs are much nicer with Sonarworks enabled, the bass is just far too reduced. I even tried giving it a +6dB bass boost and it still sounds anemic.

Might anyone have a suggestion for a way to keep the lovely highs and mids Sonarworks brings forth while not washing out the richness and strength of the bass?


----------



## markanini

dmbr said:


> I just disabled the VST after using it for a couple months with my HD800's and I'm a little sad...
> 
> While the mids and highs are much nicer with Sonarworks enabled, the bass is just far too reduced. I even tried giving it a +6dB bass boost and it still sounds anemic.
> 
> Might anyone have a suggestion for a way to keep the lovely highs and mids Sonarworks brings forth while not washing out the richness and strength of the bass?


 
 Try 6dB tilt and 4dB bass boost.


----------



## edwardsean

dmbr said:


> I just disabled the VST after using it for a couple months with my HD800's and I'm a little sad...
> 
> While the mids and highs are much nicer with Sonarworks enabled, the bass is just far too reduced. I even tried giving it a +6dB bass boost and it still sounds anemic.
> 
> Might anyone have a suggestion for a way to keep the lovely highs and mids Sonarworks brings forth while not washing out the richness and strength of the bass?


 

 Once you're open to using good equalization you can sculpt pretty much any freq. response you want out of the HD800. They respond beautifully as long as the rest of your chain is up to the task. For the low end, I boost at both 60Hz and 20Hz, but the indispensable starting point for me is sonarworks. 
  
 What might help is if you use the full bandwidth HD800 profile instead of the stock HD800 profile. The stock file deliberately attenuates the bass because full bandwidth correction demands quite a lot a clean power. If your amplification section has a lot of headroom to work with, try out the AB000B file. I don't think it has been widely released but I posted it on this thread with sonarworks' permission a couple pages back. 
  
 Good luck.


----------



## halcyon

Interesting.

Which modern driver design CLOSED, fully circumaural headphone would one start with for hopefully closest to ideal results? I think the Sony v6 successors are lacking in driver capability.

Has anybody done private measurements of Fostex, JVC or recent Beyerdynamic phones (Tesla range).

Also, was the issue of using the plugin for all sound output (regardless of audio playback software) solved? I.e. can one use this on system level for instance with PC game sounds?


----------



## hekeli

halcyon said:


> Also, was the issue of using the plugin for all sound output (regardless of audio playback software) solved? I.e. can one use this on system level for instance with PC game sounds?


 
  
 I doubt you can get good enough latency for gaming, but for generic system level use VB cable + VSThost works well for me and is free.
  
 https://nirklars.wordpress.com/2014/04/26/realtime-digital-audio-processing-using-vst-plugins-in-programs-without-vst-support/


----------



## Mike F

halcyon said:


> Interesting.
> 
> Which modern driver design CLOSED, fully circumaural headphone would one start with for hopefully closest to ideal results? *I think the Sony v6 successors are lacking in driver capability.*
> 
> ...




The 7520 certainly isn't lacking in driver capability. Whether you'd want to buy those for gaming is another matter though.


----------



## halcyon

mike f said:


> The 7520 certainly isn't lacking in driver capability. Whether you'd want to buy those for gaming is another matter though.


 
  
 Beg to differ. Compared to Beyer Tesla (say T70P), Focal spirit (Classic or Pro), Oppo (say PM-3) or Fostex (TH900) drivers and you can clearly see from measurements:
  
 1. There is insufficient power below 100Hz on 7520. Frequency response drops really fast
 2. The amount of harmonic distortion jumps up exponentially below 100Hz for 7520. This doesn't promise good things for equalizing <100Hz up.
  
 This translates over to the square wave measurements at 30hz, which are of course largely due the cup-driver coupling, but no amount of cup design can design over the inadequacies of the drivers (distortion).
  
 If the point of SonarWorks EQ is to change the voicing of the headphone (closer to a normative target curve), then the starting point should be a driver that doesn't already fall apart before it is EQed 10dBs worth. 7520 drivers do NOT pass this test and I have to say my personal listening on 7520s confirm this fact.
  
 BTW, the same pretty much applies to Sony MDR-Z7 drivers based on eyeballing the measurements (I have not heard the can, just looking at driver performance).
  
 So, I'll re-iterate my question:
  
 Has anybody EQd a modern closed, circumaural headphone closer to the Harman target curve (individualized SonarWorks measurement) and had it NOT fall apart, but perform amazingly?


----------



## Mike F

halcyon said:


> Beg to differ. Compared to Beyer Tesla (say T70P), Focal spirit (Classic or Pro), Oppo (say PM-3) or Fostex (TH900) drivers and you can clearly see from measurements:
> 
> 1. There is insufficient power below 100Hz on 7520. Frequency response drops really fast
> 2. The amount of harmonic distortion jumps up exponentially below 100Hz for 7520. This doesn't promise good things for equalizing <100Hz up.
> ...


 

 halcyon, you may be interested in the recent discussion in the 7520 thread; some interesting posts there from malfunkt, myself, and others.
  
 But, very briefly, have you listened to the 7520's with some test tones? You'll find that there's plenty of power below 100Hz despite what (Tyll's) FR graph suggests. 
  
 And measurements are useful but don't tell the whole story. You mentioned the Sony V6. I presume you realise that there really is no debate or doubt, anywhere or from anyone, that the 7520 is a vastly superior sounding headphone. BUT, look here:-
  
  
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/SonyMDRV6.pdf
  
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/SonyMDR7520.pdf
  
  
 On paper there's no question that the V6 should sound better, But having owned both at the same time I can confidently assert (as many others have) that the 7520 is the much better sounding headphone. (For reference I also own HD600 HD 650 HD800 and some ATC100SL studio monitors.)
  
 I'd be very interested to known how the 7520 fairs when Sonarworks do a calibration. Perhaps it won't be good, but I suspect that it will.


----------



## TokenGesture

Finally got my trial version working as Audirvana 2 supports plug ins (OT it also integrates Qobuz). Am using the extended HD800 profile posted here and am impressed.


----------



## phoenixdogfan

I think it helps to have a good phone that can take the equalization and not fall apart.  I sent my LCD X's to Latvia for a custom calibration and they went from excellent to superlative.  I use the vst plug in with JRiver 21, feed the output to Darin Fong's superlative OOYH (most pf the time emulating Magico Q7's),and output thru the usb to a ifi iDSD micro, set to medium amplifier gain, split the signal,sent one leg to the subpac S2m and the other to the LCD X's.   Sounds wonderful with Tidal, Classics Online HD, and multichannel Netflix movies.  The perfect recipe for high end audio and home theatre in a small apartment.


----------



## BlueBits

Using the headphone profiles for DT880 I feel it doesn't work automatically once the Audio Filter in Audirvana is set. I have to go in the setting turn on/off the toggle switch on top right before the green bars start to dance along the beats and the sound output is working.
  
 I tried it with Fidelia and had the same issue.
  
 May be just my version. Anyone else faced a similar issue?


----------



## Syliano

Finally bought me a license for the reference 3, I just realised how much this plugin makes my HD650 sound like my yamaha hs7 monitors. It made the bass just perfect, that in your face bass that doesn't overpower, it's like listening to a very good set of studio monitors tbh. Very happy with this purchase!


----------



## GearMe

phoenixdogfan said:


> I think it helps to have a good phone that can take the equalization and not fall apart.  I sent my LCD X's to Latvia for a custom calibration and they went from excellent to superlative.  I use the vst plug in with JRiver 21, feed the output to Darin Fong's superlative OOYH (most pf the time emulating Magico Q7's),and output thru the usb to a ifi iDSD micro, set to medium amplifier gain, split the signal,sent one leg to the subpac S2m and the other to the LCD X's.   Sounds wonderful with Tidal, Classics Online HD, and multichannel Netflix movies.  The perfect recipe for high end audio and home theatre in a small apartment.



Yeah...works well with my Senns and Beyers -- to the point that I'm seriously re-considering the 800 vs the 800S and saving the $$$ for a Vahalla 2 and some extra tubes.

That said, I'd encourage trying it with some of your 'lesser' cans. I was pleasantly surprised by the KNS8400's and it turned my Superlux 681s from 'Razor Blades' to Real Nice.


----------



## RudeWolf

Hey guys!
  
 We just made vids on how to set up system wide calibration on both of the major platforms!
  

  
Download and install: *Soundflower* – free audio system extension that allows applications to pass audio to other applications

*Pedalboard 2* – plugin chainer

 



 

Download and install: *VB Audio Cable* – connects audio applications together with Virtual Audio Device

*Pedalboard 2* – plugin chainer


----------



## Arnotts

I've been using Sonarworks for my HD800's and EVE SC205 monitors (along with acoustic treatment) for a while now. Absolutely phenomenal for the improvement it provides. I'm actually strongly considering sending my HD800's in for individual calibration to try and ensure they're as neutral as possible!


----------



## GearMe

gearme said:


> Yeah...works well with my Senns and Beyers -- to the point that I'm seriously re-considering the 800 vs the 800S and saving the $$$ for a Vahalla 2 and some extra tubes...




Bought the HD800; saved $700; time for an OTL amp!


----------



## yates7592

gearme said:


> Bought the HD800; saved $700; time for an OTL amp!


 
 Very smart move!


----------



## murphythecat

Ive been playing with hd-650. the difference is very small but noticeable.


----------



## Barra

> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> ...




  
Just got the email on the new LCD2 support. How do we get the file to add to our system? Do we just add it to our folder with the other profiles or does it require another method to get it to work? Is there a "no limits" version?
  
Update: Just read the email again and found instructions. Is a No Limits LCD2 version available?


----------



## GearMe

Got the email as well. It was painless with JRiver.

Pulled up the DSP Studio using Menu/Player/DSP Studio then followed their directions (below) from their email. 


"You can get the new profiles by reactivating the product. It's done by clicking on the SW logo in the plug-in UI and then clicking “Add new licence”. Then put in your existing activation code and our servers will fetch you the new profiles."​
My activation code was sent to me via email when I originally purchased the product.

The images below correspond to their email instructions and have circles to highlight their clicking and data-entry steps.


----------



## Muziqboy

Just re-activated 1 of my Sonarworks plug-in on the Intel NUC computer thru JRiver MC20 and am currently listening to the LCD2.
 It has a lot more hi-freq. info and detail and a lot more air. Totally loving the LCD2's now.


----------



## Mike F

OK I need some help. I've successfully done the installation and all appears to be OK. I have the Sonarworks plugin 3 window up and I have soundflower selected as the audio output on my mac. I'm using some Sony 7520's an have that calibration selected.
  
 I'm just playing some files which are on the desktop at the moment. I have sound, but it's very low volume even if I turn the computer sound output to max. Also, none of the controls on the Sonarworks window make any difference to the sound. I'm obviously missing something very basic, but what?


----------



## Joe Bloggs

mike f said:


> OK I need some help. I've successfully done the installation and all appears to be OK. I have the Sonarworks plugin 3 window up and I have soundflower selected as the audio output on my mac. I'm using some Sony 7520's an have that calibration selected.
> 
> I'm just playing some files which are on the desktop at the moment. I have sound, but it's very low volume even if I turn the computer sound output to max. Also, none of the controls on the Sonarworks window make any difference to the sound. I'm obviously missing something very basic, but what?




There would now be at least three volume controls on your computer--the volume control for going from the music player to system output, the system output (to soundflower)'s own volume, and the volume going from soundflower to the actual sound device (headphone jack on your computer, external DAC or whatever). Are you sure all these are maxed out?

How was the volume like before you installed soundflower?


----------



## murphythecat

Where can I get the No Limits curve for the HD-800?


----------



## Mike F

joe bloggs said:


> There would now be at least three volume controls on your computer--the volume control for going from the music player to system output, the system output (to soundflower)'s own volume, and the volume going from soundflower to the actual sound device (headphone jack on your computer, external DAC or whatever). Are you sure all these are maxed out?
> 
> How was the volume like before you installed soundflower?


 

 I'm on an iMac 27". I'm just playing a file (rough mix of something I'm playing on) which is on the desktop. The sound output is set to Soundflower 2ch. The level can be controlled from that window, or via the volume controls on the keyboard. Where else would I control the volume? The volume control in the SW plugin window has no effect, but I can see the level bars moving, so it'd definitely going through. Nothing else in the SW window makes any difference to the sound either. Like I said, it must be something very basic that I'm missing, but what? There must be some other mac users out there?!


----------



## Mike F

Problem solved. Soundflower hadn't installed properly!
  
 The available level, although it will now go louder than I need or want, is still lower than when not going through the plugin, but I guess this normal?


----------



## RudeWolf

mike f said:


> The available level, although it will now go louder than I need or want, is still lower than when not going through the plugin, but I guess this normal?


 
  
 That is normal. If we want to avoid incurring digital clipping, then the overall level must lowered by the same magnitude as the deepest dip we're compensating. Usually it isn't a problem and most amplifiers should be able to make up for it with analog gain.


----------



## Mike F

rudewolf said:


> That is normal. If we want to avoid incurring digital clipping, then the overall level must lowered by the same magnitude as the deepest dip we're compensating. Usually it isn't a problem and most amplifiers should be able to make up for it with analog gain.


 

 Thanks! I had assumed it was normal (after I had fixed my initial problems).
  
 I have to say that so far I'm mightily impressed! This is a complete game changer for me. I will post some further impressions when I have the time and have done more listening, but one quick question for now; If (when!) I buy this, will I be able to use it on more than one computer? I have one in the house and one in the Studio and I'd like to have it on both.


----------



## RudeWolf

Great to hear it!
  
 If you decide to buy, then you'll get three licences. Use them wherever you please!


----------



## murphythecat

rudewolf said:


> Great to hear it!
> 
> If you decide to buy, then you'll get three licences. Use them wherever you please!


 
 hi
 Im confused as the info on your site seem to limit each to only one license. So If I buy the sonarworks calirbation, I can install the program on 3 computers?


----------



## crowdx38

So I have Sonarworks Headphone Plugin working for my HD600 and AKG M50x but I am wondering does anyone have an AKG ATH-m70x profile or even a link to the response curve for these headphones? I want to compare them to my HD600 using the plugin.
 Thanks in advance
 Patrick


----------



## RudeWolf

Have you reactivated your plug-in? It should re-download all of the profiles, including the new ones.


----------



## crowdx38

EDIT: I just re-activated the plugin and indeed did get the new profiles. Thanks for the help 
  
 Did an average profile for the Audi-Technica M70x get released in the update?


----------



## RudeWolf

Yup! We managed to squeeze it in at last moment. Hence it wasn't mentioned in the e-mail sendout.
  
 How do you like the sound with the M70x?


----------



## crowdx38

I like the isolation the m70x provides, but the high end without the calibration makes them hard to mix with as mixes would end up dull due to the m70x artificial highs. With the Sonarworks plugin they sound pretty good, I notice their sound curve is very similar to the HD600s except the highs and low compensation are a lot more exaggerated on the m70x. What I like with both headphones is the comfort, for long sessions the HD600s are my preference but when I need to isolate something in the mix the m70x are easier to hear noise etc without going too loud. The nice thing now is that the Sonarworks plugin now allows me to switch between both headphones and get a very similar sound


----------



## tumtuter

Hello Rudewolf. Can purchased boxed copy's be used again if upgrading my computer later on. or is it single use only? I tend to prefer boxed over digital.


----------



## RudeWolf

tumtuter said:


> Hello Rudewolf. Can purchased boxed copy's be used again if upgrading my computer later on. or is it single use only? I tend to prefer boxed over digital.


 
  
 Hey!
  
 If you need to transfer the licence, please contact our support team! They'll do it for you.


----------



## canali

mike f said:


> Thanks! I had assumed it was normal (after I had fixed my initial problems).
> 
> I have to say that so far I'm mightily impressed! This is a complete game changer for me. I will post some further impressions when I have the time and have done more listening, but one quick question for now; If (when!) I buy this, will I be able to use it on more than one computer? I have one in the house and one in the Studio and I'd like to have it on both.


 
  
 looking forward to your impressions, mike f, pre and post sonarworks with the 7520s.
  
 ...i also have the senn hd650 and sony 7520 cans.
 (dac is iFi micro idsd tied into mapletree earplus hd tube amp).
  
 i presume one has to buy a specific model licence for each set of cans, right?


----------



## Mike F

canali said:


> looking forward to your impressions, mike f, pre and post sonarworks with the 7520s.
> 
> ...i also have the senn hd650 and sony 7520 cans.
> (dac is iFi micro idsd tied into mapletree earplus hd tube amp).
> ...


 

 As far as I know you don't need to by separate licences for each headphone you have. At least, all of the calibrations worked on the trial, and I would presume that they will all work when you purchase a licence. 
  
 As for impressions, pre and post, it really is hard to describe how much different the sound is. the truth is that the 7520's are very far from flat, so when the calibration is applied the sound changes considerably. I happen to like the sound of the 7520's as they are. I don't normally have a problem with the bass hump, not least because despite of it the bass is so clean and detailed. However, I do miss a sense of air which is accounted for by a dip of -9dB around 4-5kHz. They still sound very detailed because there is a similar sized peak at around 8-9kHz, but with both of these flattened out the sound is very different. And, well, flat is flat! It takes some getting used to, but when yo do, the normal response, whilst still appealing, works better for some sorts of music than for others.


----------



## ThomasHK

I thought this could be interesting to some of you here. I measured 4 very well known headphones using the Sonarworks EQ on Flat. 
  

DT990
HD650
HD800
K701
  
*Measurement:*

B&K HATS
MOTU UltraLike MK3 soundcard
Normalization done: 613Hz set to 0 dB 
  
 Overall, I have to say that I'm actually quite impressed by the software. The achieved sound is neutral and achieves what it sets out to do to a certain degree. In combination with a good crossfeed algorithm I think the results are excellent.
  
 It is clear from the measurements that there is quite a lot of variation in the achieved responses, but this is to be expected. Inter sample variation (especially shifting of HF peaks) and the limits applied to the maximum allowed EQ boost are the most critical factors here I believe.


----------



## RudeWolf

Phew! Turns out we're not scam artists after all!
  
 Good job with the measurements. Are these single point or did you shift the headphones around?
  
 P.S. We're having a deal for FREE shipping and FREE mics on our store until end of April.


----------



## ThomasHK

rudewolf said:


> Phew! Turns out we're not scam artists after all!
> 
> Good job with the measurements. Are these single point or did you shift the headphones around?
> 
> P.S. We're having a deal for FREE shipping and FREE mics on our store until end of April.


 
  
 3 repeats, average of left and right channels. So, an average of 6 measurements essentially.


----------



## tumtuter

With the digital download of 3 instances, could I sell the two other instances of the license and keep one for myself? As I only need one license on my main computer anyway.


----------



## RudeWolf

tumtuter said:


> With the digital download of 3 instances, could I sell the two other instances of the license and keep one for myself? As I only need one license on my main computer anyway.


 
  
 Well, you can try, but it will be super tricky. It's basically one code which can be activated on three different machines. So, if you can make sure that your buyer doesn't activate it twice, then go ahead!
  
 Our support guys will be super freaked out tho.


----------



## tumtuter

Ok no problem. I purchased the software now. But when I try to do the offline activation it says I need to browse my computer and import a Activation request file. Where is this?
  
 When I try to enter the key itself in the plugin it wont let me enter anything.
  
 Edit. Nevermind I figured it out and it's now activated. Time to enjoy some music!


----------



## MattTCG

EQ snob here, just saying. Got this installed this morning...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





. This EQ plugin on my hd800 has made them wonderfully musical and enjoyable. Very impressed. I would go as far as to say that with this EQ, the hd800 is appreciably more enjoyable than the hd800 S without the EQ.


----------



## Mike F

matttcg said:


> EQ snob here, just saying. Got this installed this morning...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I totally agree with you regarding the effect on the HD800, but I haven't tried the HD800S, so good to know. I've long suspected that the HD800S is the way to go if you don't want to use EQ and haven't already got the HD800, but if either of those two things aren't true then using the Sonarworks EQ on with the HD800 is a far better option.


----------



## cute

matttcg said:


> EQ snob here, just saying. Got this installed this morning...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I demoed the Sonarworks plugin to EQ my HD800, I also tried Parametric EQ settings from another HD800 owner.  I liked the Parametric EQ setting better than the Sonarworks plugin, which was too dark for my liking.  I installed the @Sorrodje mod last week, and it is a real winner for me with my setup.  Soundstage width and depth got a little lost with EQ settings, lost the real open sound of the HD800.  Sorrodje's mod is where I will be staying, no 6khz peak, wonderful bass, very enjoyable.  My HE-6 gets much less head time now, as the HD800 now is more all rounder!


----------



## Joe Bloggs

cute said:


> matttcg said:
> 
> 
> > EQ snob here, just saying. Got this installed this morning...:eek: . This EQ plugin on my hd800 has made them wonderfully musical and enjoyable. Very impressed. I would go as far as to say that with this EQ, the hd800 is appreciably more enjoyable than the hd800 S without the EQ.
> ...




Is that a software or hardware mod?


----------



## MattTCG

joe bloggs said:


> Is that a software or hardware mod?


 
  
 I believe he is referring to a hardware/physical mod of the hd800 offered by @Sorrodje


----------



## Sorrodje

Yup . http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/sennheiser-hd-800-s-tweaked-and-delightfuland-french-diy-response-page-2#4c4eCRdcDSpOICZU.97


----------



## cute

sorrodje said:


> Yup . http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/sennheiser-hd-800-s-tweaked-and-delightfuland-french-diy-response-page-2#4c4eCRdcDSpOICZU.97


 
  
 Props to @Sorrodje for taking the time to build and measure the results of his mod.  I like the transformation my HD800 has made with the resonator mod.  Not for the faint of heart, extreme care needed in working close to the diaphrams!  Warranty voided when tampering in this area, you have been warned.


----------



## MattTCG

Are there any plans to add additional headphones to the list or is it finite?


----------



## Joe Bloggs

matttcg said:


> Are there any plans to add additional headphones to the list or is it finite?




I think the answer would be "yes" to both


----------



## Mike F

joe bloggs said:


> I think the answer would be "yes" to both


 

 Hahaha! Quite!


----------



## tolgraven

RudeWolf: do you know if there's any particular reason why you aren't exposing your "simpler" controls (latency slider and bypass) to the host?
My use case: got a chain on my Live master ch racked with macros to instantly switch every plug from zero/min latency to linear phase, toggle oversampling, lookahead etc. Have trialled Sonarworks a couple of times but the lack of ability to automate it in this way is really keeping me from buying it. Well, that and the fact that the adjusted HD650 curve wrecks havoc on my Subpac haha, I need more outputs...

Rather off topic but: I've been thinking about looking into combining your room calibration with my existing KRK Ergo setup - thoughts?


----------



## psywut

Did anyone here get the custom calibration done?
 The service where you have to send Sonarworks your set of headphone and they tailor a profile specifically for them.
  
 If so, could you please do me a favor and switch between the custom profile and the average profile that ships with the software and report back the audible difference? The reason is that sending my headphones to them, the more I look into it, it going to be an absolute nightmare. If the average profiles get me 95% there, then I won't bother and I'll just get the software. However, if it's a night-and-day difference then I'll have to figure something out.
  
 Thanks!
  
 EDIT: I should clarify - I'm just interested in the differences when listening to music, as that's all I'll be doing with e'm. So I'm not concerned with any differences in mixing and whatnot.


----------



## chinook9

music alchemist said:


> Okay, I got it to work with foobar2000. Here's what you need to do.
> 
> Download and install the free trial of Sonarworks Reference 3 Headphone. (Or purchase it.)
> 
> ...


 
  
 I got the plugin working on a MacBook using JRiver but I want to try it on my Windows 10 laptop.
  
 Everything goes fine on the Windows 10 laptop until the activation. 
  
 The only way I could see to activate the plugin was to highlight Sonarworks in the DSP Manager and click on "Configure Selected."  At this point the activation screen shows up but everything locks up completely.


----------



## Joe Bloggs

http://www.yohng.com/software/foobarvst.html

Yohng's VST adapter for foobar2000 is a bit more complicated to use and only lets you host one VST plugin, but I have always found it more reliable in regards to getting VST plugins actually run and not crash.


----------



## chinook9

joe bloggs said:


> http://www.yohng.com/software/foobarvst.html
> 
> 
> 
> Yohng's VST adapter for foobar2000 is a bit more complicated to use and only lets you host one VST plugin, but I have always found it more reliable in regards to getting VST plugins actually run and not crash.



 


Thank you. I will probably try Yohng's VST adapter.

I was having trouble with the Win 10 upgrade on that machine so I wiped it and did a complete new Win 10 install. I've got the plugin working but I can get the up-sampling to 24/192 to work. I can get a 192KHZ test tone but cant get 192Khz out of Foobar.

I just realized that Win 10 probably cannot pass through 24/192 so I'lI probably have to change it to 16/192. I'll try that tomorrow.

Thanks again.

EDIT: Changed Win 10 output to 16/192 and works fine.


----------



## M3NTAL

rudewolf said:


> Have you reactivated your plug-in? It should re-download all of the profiles, including the new ones.


 
  
 Was the Sennheiser Surrounder only an April Fools joke? It is not added in my profile list.   I'm only asking to make sure my list updated correctly. The rest of the supported headphones show up fine.
  
 Cheers!


----------



## DivineCurrent

Just downloaded the trial today, I'm really impressed! My HD650s sound very true to life with the included HD650 curve settings. To think this is just EQ being applied... people really underestimate the capabilities of EQ don't they?
 Also, @RudeWolf I see you have some high end headphones such as the Audeze LCD-2, Beyer T1 and the HD800 on the list of calibrations you have done. 
 Are there any of the headphones that you find sound the most natural out of the others you guys have calibrated? My guess would be the ones that are already close to flat without the curve must sound the most natural.


----------



## RudeWolf

achelgeson said:


> Just downloaded the trial today, I'm really impressed! My HD650s sound very true to life with the included HD650 curve settings. To think this is just EQ being applied... people really underestimate the capabilities of EQ don't they?
> Also, @RudeWolf I see you have some high end headphones such as the Audeze LCD-2, Beyer T1 and the HD800 on the list of calibrations you have done.
> Are there any of the headphones that you find sound the most natural out of the others you guys have calibrated? My guess would be the ones that are already close to flat without the curve must sound the most natural.


 
  
 Great to hear that you liked it!
  
 As for higher end headphones, after you go higher than the HD650, almost every other headphone forces you to sacrifice tonality for some other trait. The HD800 is a very good example - you get a an extremely high resolution driver, yet the treble gets that nasty peak. With LCD-2 you have the super clean planar bass, but give up treble.
  
 The industry wide issue is that no one really agrees about a correct way to measure headphones and thus there can be no standard about their sound. Sean Olive from Harman is the frontrunner in this regard with his reference AFR curve. Ours is a bit different, but overall it's very similar. Even if everyone would agree to adopt Sean's curve, there would still need to be a standardised way how to measure headphones. Until then we're at the mercy of golden eared experts every mfg. has hired and their control groups.


----------



## Mike F

rudewolf said:


> Great to hear that you liked it!
> 
> As for higher end headphones, after you go higher than the HD650, almost every other headphone forces you to sacrifice tonality for some other trait. The HD800 is a very good example - you get a an extremely high resolution driver, yet the treble gets that nasty peak. With LCD-2 you have the super clean planar bass, but give up treble.
> 
> The industry wide issue is that no one really agrees about a correct way to measure headphones and thus there can be no standard about their sound. Sean Olive from Harman is the frontrunner in this regard with his reference AFR curve. Ours is a bit different, but overall it's very similar. Even if everyone would agree to adopt Sean's curve, there would still need to be a standardised way how to measure headphones. Until then we're at the mercy of golden eared experts every mfg. has hired and their control groups.


 

 RudeWolf, it sounds as though you think that, although high end headphones have their individual strengths, they are generally flawed in one area or another. After applying your EQ, would you say that overall they are not better than the HD650, or even that the HD650 is actually overall better?


----------



## MattTCG

mike f said:


> RudeWolf, it sounds as though you think that, although high end headphones have their individual strengths, they are generally flawed in one area or another. After applying your EQ, would you say that overall they are not better than the HD650, or even that the HD650 is actually overall better?


 
  
 Not answering for him but just a IMO, for years I felt that I would say yes. The tonality of the 650 was so good that it often usurped most of the headtime over flagship headphones. But with EQ implemented properly, this is no longer the case, at least for me. Take the hd800. Once the 800 is properly EQ'ed it becomes a daily driver and not just something that I use for very good recordings. 
  
 The hd650 still remains the ultimate headphone for forgiveness but the margin is not greatly reduced. 
  
 Not all headphones respond as well to EQ, even good EQ. But the hd800 constitutes an impressive transformation.


----------



## RudeWolf

With both calibrated the HD800 edges out the HD650. I'd say the LCD-2 with calibration becomes better than HD650. It's mostly due to the fact that both of the more expensive headphones can show their strengths (HD800 - resolution, headstage; LCD-2 - dat bass) and you don't need to deal with any of tonal inaccuracies.


----------



## MattTCG

I think many would be shocked at the sub bass performance from the hd800 with good EQ.


----------



## edwardsean

matttcg said:


> I think many would be shocked at the sub bass performance from the hd800 with good EQ.


 

 Totally agree. Out of the box, the HD800 has a disappointingly weak bass. Early on, I thought it was just a limitation of the driver. Then, I started carefully adding sub bass frequencies, half expecting little response or distortion. Nope. The HD800 responds wonderfully to EQ to compensate for missing low-end. There are still phones out there that can do better, naturally, but with proper adjustment the bass becomes hugely satisfying. 
  
 Also, some presets on Darin Fong's OOYH that capture the response of a subwoofer also fill out the bass on the HD800. 
  
 For me, Sonarworks > OOYH > HD800 yields astonishing results.


----------



## SodaBoy

psywut said:


> Did anyone here get the custom calibration done?
> The service where you have to send Sonarworks your set of headphone and they tailor a profile specifically for them.
> 
> If so, could you please do me a favor and switch between the custom profile and the average profile that ships with the software and report back the audible difference? The reason is that sending my headphones to them, the more I look into it, it going to be an absolute nightmare. If the average profiles get me 95% there, then I won't bother and I'll just get the software. However, if it's a night-and-day difference then I'll have to figure something out.
> ...


 

 I'm using a HD800 custom calibration.
  
 There is a very audible difference between the custom and average profiles. The HD800 average profile is brighter and less tonally accurate than the custom profile. The calibration of the average profile is less aggressive, and less capable. The custom profile is more aggressive and could fully level out the treble peaks from the HD800. The bass sounded the same on both profiles, but the midrange and treble were noticeably different.
  
 However, even the average profile is a big improvement over uncorrected.


----------



## hekeli

sodaboy said:


> There is a very audible difference between the custom and average profiles.


 
  
 Have you compared your custom to the well known public unlimited profile?
  
 https://www.dropbox.com/s/x1wuzp85cxhom7q/AB000B.swhp?dl=0
  
 Bass extension etc difference is easily heard between average and AB000B.
  
 Well now that I have SD mod done, I might consider shipping to for calibration anyway..


----------



## SodaBoy

hekeli said:


> Have you compared your custom to the well known public unlimited profile?
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/x1wuzp85cxhom7q/AB000B.swhp?dl=0
> 
> ...


 
 Even my custom is limited, the public unlimited profile has more bass extension and magnitude compared to both my average and custom profiles. Distortion will increase appreciably if the lower octaves are pushed too far. Conversely, we are much less sensitive to distortion in the lower octaves though.


----------



## DivineCurrent

I highly recommend listening to Dr. Cheskey's Ultimate Headphone Demonstration Disc while running this software. Using the HD650s on the flat reference curve, the realism Cheskey's recordings convey is startling. I bet it will work just as well with other binaural recordings too.


----------



## SanjiWatsuki

I've been trying out SonarWorks for the past month or so and I'm impressed. I've used it with the HD800, DT990, and the M50x.
  
 I heavily suspect that the SonarWorks house curve is very similar to the Harman speaker curve or the Olive-Welti headphone curve. The main differences is that I think SonarWorks emphasizes the sub-bass more and is a bit brighter in the upper mids and lower treble region.


----------



## chinook9

I have purchased the headphone plugin and have it working well on Windows 10 in Foobar.
  
 I'd like to use the plugin on my MacBook also but I don't want to have to buy JRiver.  Does the plugin work with any of the free or relatively inexpensive music players for Mac?


----------



## Yoga

chinook9 said:


> I have purchased the headphone plugin and have it working well on Windows 10 in Foobar.
> 
> I'd like to use the plugin on my MacBook also but I don't want to have to buy JRiver.  Does the plugin work with any of the free or relatively inexpensive music players for Mac?


 

 You can use Audio Hijack to route all system audio through it, which means it works with absolutely everything. Spotify, Youtube - any music player.
  

 There is a free alternative using Soundflower and another piece of software, but this app is *well* worth the little outlay.


----------



## edwardsean

yoga said:


> You can use Audio Hijack to route all system audio through it, which means it works with absolutely everything. Spotify, Youtube - any music player.
> 
> 
> There is a free alternative using Soundflower and another piece of software, but this app is *well* worth the little outlay.


 

 Second that. This is a great way to also chain some high fidelity processing together. I have Tidal (hifi) > Sonarworks > EQ > OutOfYourHead.
  
 It's a killer pathway.


----------



## Yoga

edwardsean said:


> Second that. This is a great way to also chain some high fidelity processing together. I have Tidal (hifi) > Sonarworks > EQ > OutOfYourHead.
> 
> It's a killer pathway.


 

 Any reason you're not running all system audio through that chain?
  
 I used to get the odd click/pop, but that seems to have vanished with the latest update. I've left the module in just in case :¬)
  
 To all - make sure you have *'Avoid Clipping' enabled *(Sonarworks plugin UI).


----------



## edwardsean

yoga said:


> Any reason you're not running all system audio through that chain?
> 
> I used to get the odd click/pop, but that seems to have vanished with the latest update. I've left the module in just in case :¬)
> 
> To all - make sure you have *clipping enabled*.


 


yoga said:


> Any reason you're not running all system audio through that chain?
> 
> I used to get the odd click/pop, but that seems to have vanished with the latest update. I've left the module in just in case :¬)
> 
> To all - make sure you have *clipping enabled*.


 
  
 Hi Yoga, great to see you here. I have this running though the 430HA and the end result is really astounding. I'm just running Tidal, as it's the one thing I need it for. I thought it would be more direct and cleaner pathway. Is it better to run all system audio?


----------



## Yoga

edwardsean said:


> Hi Yoga, great to see you here. I have this running though the 430HA and the end result is really astounding. I'm just running Tidal, as it's the one thing I need it for. I thought it would be more direct and cleaner pathway. Is it better to run all system audio? Also, where do you set "clipping enabled"?


 

 Hey buddy :¬)
  
 That makes sense, I'd do the same if it were for a single app - less to process. I run all system audio as this is my audio production machine; I'm always listening to music (through various apps and services). 
  
 I did wonder if that was ambiguous. *Avoid Clipping* is an option on the Sonarworks plugin itself, on the right hand side, just below the volume slider. Make sure it's *enabled*.


----------



## DivineCurrent

Since the software contains a preset for the B&K curve, I experimented a little with the custom curve option to get close to the Harman Reference Room Target (RR1). Here are the differences in 4 loudspeaker curves:
  

  
 And here is what I did for the custom curve:
  

  
 Compared to the B&K curve, this one has a 4 db bass boost from 100hz downward, and a 1-2 db reduction from 200hz to 4 Khz. Got to say, this makes my HD650s sound like huge tower speakers with a subwoofer.


----------



## chinook9

Thank you Yoga, for the recommendation.  I will try it in the next couple of days.


----------



## Yoga

chinook9 said:


> Thank you Yoga, for the recommendation.  I will try it in the next couple of days.


 

 No worries. Enjoy!


----------



## DivineCurrent

Has anyone tried the Beyer DT880 with the software? I sold mine a while ago, im wondering if it will be worth it to get them again to use them with the software. Even with the calabration, my guess is the DT800 will have a little more treble resolution than the HD650.


----------



## pila405

Where can I get the HD800 profile?


----------



## MattTCG

It comes packaged with the software. I'm using jriver and choose dsp studio and then select hd800 profile.


----------



## phoenixdogfan

Recently purchased the HD 800's which was on sale on Amazon for $1000.  Use the "flat to 20 hz" plug in for them which has a link somewhere in this thread. Send the JRive output directly to OOYH using the Magico Q7, Focal,and Revel plug ins mostly,and sending that output to the phones and a sub pac.  If you ask me this set up punches like George Foreman or Joe Frazier.  Just gobs and gobs of clean deep no hangover or boom bass that in no way obscures the suberb mid range and treble.  It's so sweet to lose those room nodes.


----------



## DivineCurrent

I got my custom calibration done for the HD650 last week. I just want to comment on how much of a difference it makes compared to the average profile. You wouldn't think it would make much difference, but it honestly doesn't sound like I am listening to headphones after the calibration, the sound has suddenly jumped out of the headphones and made them disappear. It quite literally transforms the HD650s into a whole new headphone, that beats anything else I have tried the 3 years I've been in the hobby. I've honestly never heard sound so natural and realistic thanks to the flat frequency curve Sonarworks uses. I am eager to try other headphones now with the custom calibration. So, kudos to the team at Sonarworks, because my experience with the custom calibration service has been nothing but amazing!


----------



## MattTCG

^^Makes an even bigger difference with the hd800.


----------



## DivineCurrent

matttcg said:


> ^^Makes an even bigger difference with the hd800.



Yes i hear that from many on here. Makes me want to get the HD800 just to use it with the calibration!


----------



## thecrow

achelgeson said:


> Yes i hear that from many on here. Makes me want to get the HD800 just to use it with the calibration!



Ahhhh.....think of it as $2000 calibration (or whatever the exact total would be) that comes with a free hd800


----------



## Yoga

Pretty certain I'll be sending my HD-800 in for calibration soon. Will be interesting to hear the difference over the bundled preset.


----------



## MattTCG

yoga said:


> Pretty certain I'll be sending my HD-800 in for calibration soon. Will be interesting to hear the difference over the bundled preset.


 
  
 And I'd be interested to hear your results. Please share this if you decide to do it.


----------



## phoenixdogfan

Also, let us know if you're getting the equalization which rolls off the extreme bass or  the one that keeps it flat to 20hz.


----------



## Yoga

matttcg said:


> And I'd be interested to hear your results. Please share this if you decide to do it.


 
  
 Will do :¬)
  


phoenixdogfan said:


> Also, let us know if you're getting the equalization which rolls off the extreme bass or  the one that keeps it flat to 20hz.


 
  
 I've not decided that yet - when I do I'll get them sent off.


----------



## Lex2

I use Sonarworks Reference 3 and also the redline Monitor day in and day out in Cubase 8 for mixing, along with monitors. Love the flat response on both my AKG-702 and HD-600s, but at the end of the day I cannot wait to get those cans off and hear some real music through very coloured headphones. Like my Grados. These plugins take the life out of any music. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Just saying that not everyone will enjoy "calibrated" cans.


----------



## MattTCG

lex2 said:


> I use Sonarworks Reference 3 and also the redline Monitor day in and day out in Cubase 8 for mixing, along with monitors. Love the flat response on both my AKG-702 and HD-600s, but at the end of the day I cannot wait to get those cans off and hear some real music through very coloured headphones. Like my Grados. These plugins take the life out of any music.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Odd...I guess we all hear things differently. Even using "flat" sonarworks EQ with my hd800, the headphone has a much more musical presentation than stock.


----------



## Yoga

lex2 said:


> I use Sonarworks Reference 3 and also the redline Monitor day in and day out in Cubase 8 for mixing, along with monitors. Love the flat response on both my AKG-702 and HD-600s, but at the end of the day I cannot wait to get those cans off and hear some real music through very coloured headphones. Like my Grados. These plugins take the life out of any music.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 It's the opposite with the HD800; SW R3 gives them a fuller, more natural sound.
  
 Saying that, if you like Grado's, you'd probably prefer the brighter (thinner, compared to the EQ'ed version) stock HD800 sound.


----------



## phoenixdogfan

Everyone certainly is different,  when I use SW with my HD 800's, the sound is so transparent as to seen utterly naked and transparent, like nothing at all whatsoever is veiling or hiding the musicians from me.


----------



## MattTCG

So is the list of headphones offered in the plugin static or will sonarworks ever be adding new headphones to the list?


----------



## hekeli

matttcg said:


> So is the list of headphones offered in the plugin static or will sonarworks ever be adding new headphones to the list?


 
  
 Of course they do (but they only add consistently manufactured/measuring headphones as generic presets... though looking at the recent list that's debatable )
  
 http://sonarworks.com/2016/04/sonarworks-now-on-5-new-headphones/


----------



## fjrabon

nice to see what Matt's secret weapon was with his HD800 at Canlanta, haha.  I've now also gone to the Sonarworks HD800 darkside (or rather neutralside).  Truly a game changer with these cans, as they take the HD800's raw resolution, low distortion and soundstage and then give you a completely natural tonal balance.  I pair it with GoodHertz can opener and Goodhertz mid-side.  Then you throw on a transparent DAC and amp with great dynamicism and it's absolutely the best headphone sound I've ever heard, including stuff I've heard at meets.
  
 also, I am gonna send my lawton mod emu ebony cup THX00 into sonarworks as well.  The lawton mods really cut down on THD and ringing, interested to see if sonarworks gets it to the last little piece
  
 Also, for the guy saying "I can't wait to get some colored headphones on after using it, like Grados."  They do have the GS1000 simulation, that to my ears is dead spot on.


----------



## MattTCG

fjrabon said:


> nice to see what Matt's secret weapon was with his HD800 at Canlanta, haha.  I've now also gone to the Sonarworks HD800 darkside (or rather neutralside).  Truly a game changer with these cans, as they take the HD800's raw resolution, low distortion and soundstage and then give you a completely natural tonal balance.  I pair it with GoodHertz can opener and Goodhertz mid-side.  Then you throw on a transparent DAC and amp with great dynamicism and it's absolutely the best headphone sound I've ever heard, including stuff I've heard at meets.
> 
> also, I am gonna send my lawton mod emu ebony cup THX00 into sonarworks as well.  The lawton mods really cut down on THD and ringing, interested to see if sonarworks gets it to the last little piece
> 
> Also, for the guy saying "I can't wait to get some colored headphones on after using it, like Grados."  They do have the GS1000 simulation, that to my ears is dead spot on.


OK so my secret is out. The HD 800 with this eq is simply stunning. Has to be experienced to be believed.


----------



## fjrabon

matttcg said:


> OK so my secret is out. The HD 800 with this eq is simply stunning. Has to be experienced to be believed.


 

 yeah, meeting up with purk this week to listen to the sonarworks -> GoodHertz -> iDAC6 -> Torpedo III -> HD800 setup.  I feel like a lot of people's hesitation on DSP EQ comes from the crappy implementations.  Companies like Sonarworks and Goodhertz, who cater to pro audio and have fully 64 bit DSP implementations are a completely different beast than most of the EQ systems people used a couple of years ago, which did noticeably degrade the signal.  
  
 I honestly believe at this point that the EQ implementation from these pro audio companies (even putting aside the measurement calibrations, just talking the EQ processing) has reached a point where it's surpassed hardware EQ in cleanliness of sound, in addition to vastly lapping it in features and ease of use.


----------



## thecrow

matttcg said:


> OK so my secret is out. The HD 800 with this eq is simply stunning. Has to be experienced to be believed.


 
  


fjrabon said:


> Companies like Sonarworks and Goodhertz, who cater to pro audio and have fully 64 bit DSP implementations are a completely different beast than most of the EQ systems people used a couple of years ago, which did noticeably degrade the signal.


 
  
 I'm currently tweaking my desktop set up with cables and eq.
  
 i'm going to be looking at goodhertz with what you people have said and am currently in my trial period of sonarworks
 I also have an eq (focusrite scarlett) which i'm getting benefits from
  
 for just playback purposes is sonarworks an eq that essentially has these neutral/pre determined presets that can be tweaked through it's tilting of the reference curve or is it more than that as far as playback eqing is concerned?
  
 what are the benefits of using sonarworks with anther eq?
  
 your further info of this software is much welcomed
  
 cheers
 peter t


----------



## fjrabon

In theory Sonarworks isn't anything you couldn't do with a very powerful parametric EQ with a LOT of knobs.  Theoretically if you had a great ear, a clear sense of neutral and spent hours with sine wave sweeps, you could, by hand create a calibration curve.  In practice, with the complicated peaks and valleys headphones have, this is near impossible to do anything other than a very rough sense.  
  
 Sonarworks has two primary benefits:
  
 1) It's an extremely well implemented EQ.  They don't cut corners in the processing compartment.  It used to be the case that people complained about DSP parametric EQ that it severely degraded the bitperfect digital signal, and there was certainly some truth to that with certain programs.  Sonarworks, however is a extremely high quality processing.  It does take a decently powerful computer to run it seamlessly. But it's more or less transparent in the signal path.  It just works without adding in any digital nasties
  
 2) They take the hard work of painstakingly creating your own EQ profile and quickly get you to neutral with the calibration profiles.  They then give you some very basic controls to adjust the overall tonality.  I use the custom calibration a lot with 4dB of bass and then a treble tilt of 4 dB, giving a very soft, very gradual U curve.  But on some recordings i can quickly click over to the flat setting.  Or I can mimic the GS1000, or I can mimic generalized large room speakers.  It's not unlimited as to what you can do, but there are a lot of options for tailoring your sound.  You don't have the control of a parametric EQ, but you have more than enough control.  And you can always use an EQ after in the chain as well, which allows Sonarworks to do the hard part of getting you to neutral, and then you can make a few tweaks with another pogram, without having to worry about precise corrections of irregular peaks.  However, I think very few people will need more tailoring options than Sonarworks allows for within the program.  The very basic bass and tilt controls work great if you have a neutral starting point, which Sonarworks provides.


----------



## thecrow

fjrabon said:


> Sonarworks has two primary benefits:
> 
> 1) It's an extremely well implemented EQ.  Sonarworks, however is a extremely high quality processing.  It does take a decently powerful computer to run it seamlessly. But it's more or less transparent in the signal path.  It just works without adding in any digital nasties
> 
> 2) They take the hard work of painstakingly creating your own EQ profile and quickly get you to neutral with the calibration profiles.  They then give you some very basic controls to adjust the overall tonality.


 
 thanks heaps for taking the time to forward the great reply
  
 and from what i've seen so far in my trial, i agree


----------



## DivineCurrent

I recently had the chance to listen to the HD800 S, and LCD-X. And I must say, the HD650 with the individual calibration Sonarworks simply sounds better to me than both the 800S and LCD-X by themselves. Now, I'm not trying to be an advertisement for Sonarworks, but it really is that good, that it transforms the HD650 into a headphone that competes with $1000 + headphones. Now, of course the HD800 has vastly wider soudstage and better imaging, and i cant wait to try them with the software eventually.


----------



## edwardsean

fjrabon said:


> I honestly believe at this point that the EQ implementation from these pro audio companies (even putting aside the measurement calibrations, just talking the EQ processing) has reached a point where it's surpassed hardware EQ in cleanliness of sound, in addition to vastly lapping it in features and ease of use.


 
  
 I have to agree. Software EQs have just been unbelievable good in these years in terms of functionality and sound quality. I'm also one that adds another EQ post Sonarworks. Sonarworks takes me to neutral, but then I add a small amount of EQ to suit my own taste and system. 
  
 The thing is when you're looking for pro-quality EQs, there really is an embarrassment of riches out there, and they range from cheap to hundreds of dollars. I already had a pretty decent collection of some great EQs from doing pro audio. I went through the best and old-standbys, DMG, Sonnox, Waves, etc. The thing is many of them are expensive and offer many features that an audiophile would never use. More importantly, even the surgical "mastering" EQs aren't always quite transparent. Many of the best EQ plugs are sought after for the subtle character they impart. 
  
 So, I just wanted to mention Apulsoft Apqualizr as a reasonably priced EQ that does transparency really well. 
  
 Also, just to spin my broken record, OOYH virtual speaker completes a great DSP chain.


----------



## thecrow

fjrabon said:


> yeah, meeting up with purk this week to listen to the sonarworks -> GoodHertz -> iDAC6 -> Torpedo III -> HD800 setup.  I feel like a lot of people's hesitation on DSP EQ comes from the crappy implementations.  Companies like Sonarworks and Goodhertz, who cater to pro audio and have fully 64 bit DSP implementations are a completely different beast than most of the EQ systems people used a couple of years ago, which did noticeably degrade the signal.
> 
> I honestly believe at this point that the EQ implementation from these pro audio companies (even putting aside the measurement calibrations, just talking the EQ processing) has reached a point where it's surpassed hardware EQ in cleanliness of sound, in addition to vastly lapping it in features and ease of use.


 

 which progra from goodhertz is the eq that yiu use? is it the tone control? or another one from the website?
  
 cheers


----------



## fjrabon

thecrow said:


> which progra from goodhertz is the eq that yiu use? is it the tone control? or another one from the website?
> 
> cheers




With goodhertz I don't use their EQ programs. Sonarworks has a powerful enough EQ for me. My DSP chain is: 

Sonarworks (calibration and EQ) -> goodhertz MidSide (controls soundstage width) -> goodhertz CanOpener (crossfeed, makes the soundstage more connected and natural). 

Tone control however would be a good EQ program to put in the chain after sonarworks if you wanted more power in your signature shaping, but didn't want to use parametric EQ. I've used tone control and it sounds very good and is simple and easy to use. But after my trial was up I just didn't feel like I needed it in addition to the controls already in Sonarworks.


----------



## thecrow

fjrabon said:


> With goodhertz I don't use their EQ programs. Sonarworks has a powerful enough EQ for me. My DSP chain is:
> 
> Sonarworks (calibration and EQ) -> goodhertz MidSide (controls soundstage width) -> goodhertz CanOpener (crossfeed, makes the soundstage more connected and natural).
> 
> Tone control however would be a good EQ program to put in the chain after sonarworks if you wanted more power in your signature shaping, but didn't want to use parametric EQ. I've used tone control and it sounds very good and is simple and easy to use. But after my trial was up I just didn't feel like I needed it in addition to the controls already in Sonarworks.


Is canopener for osx (and ios)?

Im assuming from what i saw that with ios it only works with the ios music app and not other apps like tidal


----------



## fjrabon

thecrow said:


> Is canopener for osx (and ios)?
> 
> Im assuming from what i saw that with ios it only works with the ios music app and not other apps like tidal



I use the OS X version. With it it processes all your system audio like any other au plug in.


----------



## thecrow

fjrabon said:


> I use the OS X version. With it it processes all your system audio like any other au plug in.


Thanks again for your info


----------



## remedy1419

trying out sonarworks with the average hd800 profile it comes with and the universal profile from this thread. running an hd800 off an uber bifrost and bottlehead crack w/ speedball.
  
 let me start by saying I don't use EQ's or even understand how they work, but regardless I'll continue. 
  
 99% of the comments in this thread with the hd800 say that it lifts a kind of veil, but to me it seems like when i have the calibration on, the soundstage seems smaller? not sure if it's lowering the volume of sounds that are kind of ambient, but in almost everything i've listened to with it on, it just seems like the soundstage isn't as massive and encompassing as with it on. 
  
 anyone want to chime in and tell me where i'm wrong or what i'm not understanding?


----------



## hekeli

It's supposed to change tonality, "not lift a veil" (who said that?). Some "air" will no doubt be removed as the 6khz region is dropped down and bass increased. Thus a thicker sound. If you don't like it, you can try adjusting the wet knob for less effect.


----------



## edwardsean

remedy1419 said:


> trying out sonarworks with the average hd800 profile it comes with and the universal profile from this thread. running an hd800 off an uber bifrost and bottlehead crack w/ speedball.
> 
> let me start by saying I don't use EQ's or even understand how they work, but regardless I'll continue.
> 
> ...


 

 Yeah, soundstage perception is an interesting thing, and like yourself soundstage is really important to me. That's why I've stuck with the HD800 for so long, even as so many great phones have come along. The HD800 does such a great job of projecting a huge airy stage.
  
 I think what might be happening is that sonarworks has leveled up some of the lower frequency "gaps" which does give that "thicker" sound that Hekeli mentioned. However, leveling down the 6Khz region will not affect soundstage negatively that much. The "air" frequencies are higher up and these get a boost with sonarworks, which is why people might hear a "lifting of a veil."
  
 What I would suggest even more than dialing back the mix is going to the custom setting and adjusting down the bass boost and tilt. You may want to start by just pressing the "optimum" button, and going from there. I think that might be what you're looking for in terms of bringing back the stage to what you enjoyed.


----------



## hekeli

edwardsean said:


> You may want to start by just pressing the "optimum" button, and going from there.


 
  
 Yeah that's a good option too. There's so many buttons, one can try all of them. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 It's funny how I've gone from optimum to pure flat to 25% wet... a constantly evolving search for the most pleasing sound. And sometimes some metal etc is so crappy that actually using the Grado curve sounds excellent lol..


----------



## edwardsean

hekeli said:


> Yeah that's a good option too. There's so many buttons, one can try all of them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Hekeli is right, definitely worth exploring all the functions to tune the sound to your liking. 
  
 Just to clarify the optimum button has to do with adjusting the frequency spectrum post correction. The optimum button will automatically set the controls to most closely resemble the frequency characteristics of the phone before adjustment. 
  
 Put simply, after sonarworks flattens the HD800's curve, it tilts the bass end back down. This might solve Remedy's problem with soundstage by making it less "thick."


----------



## Yoga

Yeah mix to taste.
  
 Having said that, an EQ does not change the empirical soundstage capabilities of the headphone. That's transducer based.
  
 As others have said, fuller mids, higher bass and lowered peak treble will make it seem that way. Although it's actually the same :¬)
  
 Perception, and all that.


----------



## fjrabon

remedy1419 said:


> trying out sonarworks with the average hd800 profile it comes with and the universal profile from this thread. running an hd800 off an uber bifrost and bottlehead crack w/ speedball.
> 
> let me start by saying I don't use EQ's or even understand how they work, but regardless I'll continue.
> 
> ...




My guess here, and it's just a guess, is that since sonarworks roughly triples the current required for your headphones, that the BHML is having trouble supplying all that current. The mainline isn't that good when you start getting to inefficient (inefficient isn't the same thing as high impedance) headphones, and the HD800 becomes pretty inefficient with sonarworks, since the baseline adjustment lowers the line level by about 8.6 dB. Lack of current can cause a degredation in clarity that maybe comes off as a smaller soundstage. This is multiplied by the fact that sonarworks requires you to turn your amp up nearly twice as loud, thus doubling any lack of background blackness the amp has, which again may lessen the perception of soundstage. 

You can tell if this is a problem if you apply the profile and then hit the bypass button, which disables the EQ, but keeps the level adjustment. Since the problem I am talking about comes from the level adjustment, it would stay regardless of whether or not the calibration profile was running. 

But soundstage perception is such a wonky thing it's almost impossible to say what it truly is without me hearing your system with your ears. For example for me crossfeed causes soundstage to increase in size. But for some it causes it to decrease.


----------



## MattTCG

Glad to see that this thread is getting some traction with the community. Great software!!


----------



## fjrabon

One point, everybody who is using this for audiophile purposes should be using linear phase. The other two settings are more for people doing live in studio tracking, who can't deal with a substantial delay. But if you're just listening to music, a playback delay isn't an issue at all. The linear phase setting takes more CPU but is MUCH higher fidelity.


----------



## MattTCG

fjrabon said:


> One point, everybody who is using this for audiophile purposes should be using linear phase. The other two settings are more for people doing live in studio tracking, who can't deal with a substantial delay. But if you're just listening to music, a playback delay isn't an issue at all. The linear phase setting takes more CPU but is MUCH higher fidelity.


 
  
 Thanks for the heads up on linear phase!


----------



## RudeWolf

fjrabon said:


> One point, everybody who is using this for audiophile purposes should be using linear phase. The other two settings are more for people doing live in studio tracking, who can't deal with a substantial delay. But if you're just listening to music, a playback delay isn't an issue at all. The linear phase setting takes more CPU but is MUCH higher fidelity.


 
  
 Depends, really. The gist of the matter is that all forms of EQ have some pros and cons. Phase linear doesn't introduce phase distortion, but it's by design very high latency and introduces pre-ringing. Minimum phase is very low latency (can be zero latency), but introduces phase distortion and usually the calibration is less precise.
  
 With that said - both methods yield tremendous improvements, compared to stock frequency response.


----------



## fjrabon

rudewolf said:


> Depends, really. The gist of the matter is that all forms of EQ have some pros and cons. Phase linear doesn't introduce phase distortion, but it's by design very high latency and introduces pre-ringing. Minimum phase is very low latency (can be zero latency), but introduces phase distortion and usually the calibration is less precise.
> 
> With that said - both methods yield tremendous improvements, compared to stock frequency response.


 

 Yeah, I totally agree, but is there any reason an audiophile user should care about latency (genuinely asking, because maybe I'm overlooking something as to why audiophiles should care about latency, I can't think of anything)?  I get that pro-studio users generally can't have ANY noticeable latency, but is that really a concern for people who are just listening to music and trying to get the highest fidelity possible?  TO me, going from minimum phase to linear phase took the signal from sounding like any normal, but painstakingly done, parametric EQ to being the transparent window that linear sounds like to me.


----------



## DivineCurrent

Can someone elaborate what exactly is linear phase?


----------



## RudeWolf

achelgeson said:


> Can someone elaborate what exactly is linear phase?


 
  
 Linear phase is a property of a filter, where the phase response of the filter is a linear function of frequency. The result is that all frequency components of the input signal are shifted in time (usually delayed) by the same constant amount, which is referred to as the phase delay. And consequently, there is no phase distortion due to the time delay of frequencies relative to one another.
  
  


fjrabon said:


> Yeah, I totally agree, but is there any reason an audiophile user should care about latency (genuinely asking, because maybe I'm overlooking something as to why audiophiles should care about latency, I can't think of anything)?  I get that pro-studio users generally can't have ANY noticeable latency, but is that really a concern for people who are just listening to music and trying to get the highest fidelity possible?  TO me, going from minimum phase to linear phase took the signal from sounding like any normal, but painstakingly done, parametric EQ to being the transparent window that linear sounds like to me.


 
  
 Pre-ringing or pre-echo. If you're listening to material with many isolated transients - say percussive music, I'd recommend sticking to minimum phase. Latency can also make movie watching hard and games unplayable.
  
 And studio guys need low latency only when doing live stuff. Other usecases can be compensated for high latency.


----------



## koven

im a new EQ believer thanks to sonarworks. i never EQ anything i use, mainly due to my own ignorance, but thought id try this free trial and ive been very surprised/happy with how much it refines the sound. i will end up purchasing when the trial is over. wish i had an hd800 to try after reading all the comments here, and i almost bought one recently until the focal elear hype started, think ill go w/ that as my next headphones to the collection.


----------



## MattTCG

I've put off EQ for years because I was never able to get the results that I had hoped for. But Sonarworks has put professional level EQ in the hands of end users for a very reasonable price. The software with the Hd800 remains one of my favorite listening experiences and a hidden gem around these parts. 
  
 One request, please add more headphones to the calibration list!!


----------



## RudeWolf

Well, I'm not sure if we fall under the EQ category. When I read EQ, I imagine many sliders or a squiggly line to snake-charm. It's more of a digital filter/crossover for headphones.


----------



## PATB

I have been demoing the Sonarworks plug-in with Windows Vista/jRiver for my HD800 and HD650. 
  
 My HD650 is 10+ years old, but with new pads.  I bought the HD800 new a year ago (it came direct from Senn -- so has a high SN; don't have it right now).  I drove both headphones with a balanced tube amp, SinglePower SDS-XLR (HD800 with Cardas Clear and HD650 with Zu Mobius).  Source is a TEAC UD-301.  I tried different plug-in settings but ended up preferring the defaults (flat response, 100% dry/wet etc.) for both headphones. 
  
 For the HD650, the plug-in does not make a big difference to my old ears.  I notice increased bass and more sparkling, but grainy, treble.  But as far as overall tonality, the plug-in does not change the HD650 much.  I prefer the HD650 without the plug-in.  YMMV. 
  
 For the HD800, I can't help but wonder if the people selling slightly used HD800 for $700-$800 tried Sonarworks.  It makes a HUGE and VERY WELCOME improvement.  With Sonarworks, the HD800 has very defined/tight bass but with restrained highs.  At first I thought the highs are muted but, after hours of listening, I realized that all the resolution is still there -- I just had to adjust my perception.  The tonality of the HD800 with the plug-in is now much closer to the HD650 without the plug-in, but on steroids. 
  
 Prior to the plug-in, I was using the anax mod with the HD800.  I of course can't directly A/B the anax mod with the plug-in, but the anax mod sounds more like the plug-in with the optimum response.  Except without the bass of the plug-in.  I much prefer the plug-in to the anax mod.
  
 Highly recommended for HD800 users.  For other headphones, there's always the free trial.  Thanks @RudeWolf !


----------



## edwardsean

I also went down the physical mod route but no matter how carefully I adjusted the material it never worked out well. It seemed like whatever I gained in damping unwanted frequencies/resonance, also took away positive spectral characteristics as well. Even at its best, adding material in this DIY way is such a blunt tool for a precise problem. 
  
 Sonarworks is the answer, providing a surgically precise solution.
  
@RudeWolf I totally understand Sonarwork's is best understood as a filter, but I do think that in trying to explain it to the audiophile community EQ is still the best reference point. If DSP is divided up generally between time-based and gain-based effects, it fits in the latter. And then if gain-based effects are divided between EQs and compressor/limiters, it fits best under the former. It is a broad designation, but for that reason it is able to communicate to a broader group. From there you could subdivide again between crossover/filters and EQs with sliders and snaking lines.


----------



## fjrabon

Yeah, to me, the great thing about sonarworks is that it allowed me to stop making compromises to "fix" sound signature responses issues in my gear. Because I now have a neutral starting point, I can focus on building the rest of my system on raw ability. 

I no longer need "amp synergy" to add bass or smooth out treble peaks or anything else. I can just focus on dynamics, resolution, soundstage, lack of distortion/grain/boomyness. Building a chain has gone from needing pieces to fit just right to simply getting great gear. My rig is simpler and has never sounded better. I don't need to pick a tube with mediocre dynamics because I need the treble roll off because the Hd800 has too much treble. 

It really is amazing how much easier it is and how much better things are when you're starting your system from a neutral reference point.


----------



## edwardsean

fjrabon said:


> Yeah, to me, the great thing about sonarworks is that it allowed me to stop making compromises to "fix" sound signature responses issues in my gear. Because I now have a neutral starting point, I can focus on building the rest of my system on raw ability.
> 
> I no longer need "amp synergy" to add bass or smooth out treble peaks or anything else. I can just focus on dynamics, resolution, soundstage, lack of distortion/grain/boomyness. Building a chain has gone from needing pieces to fit just right to simply getting great gear. My rig is simpler and has never sounded better. I don't need to pick a tube with mediocre dynamics because I need the treble roll off because the Hd800 has too much treble.
> 
> It really is amazing how much easier it is and how much better things are when you're starting your system from a neutral reference point.


 

 That's really insightful. Traditional wisdom has always aimed at assembling that great chain of synergistic gear. However, the process is haphazard and imprecise. It would be a different matter if you had pieces being custom built to work together. Instead, what you have is the serendipity and "romance" of headfi: reading, exploring, and mix and match experimenting. 
  
 It is fun, but I've always taken a different approach and chained similar gear together rather than complementary gear. I always look for components that have the mix of sonic characteristics I value and add these to others like them. There is a certain kind of synergy when two pieces fit together by balancing either other out, and there is a different kind when they fit because they're so alike. 
  
 I think this dovetails from what fjrabon posted. Once you have a neutral transducer you can eliminate the need for making up deficiencies and concentrate on performance. Alongside performance you can pursue your personal taste in a more pure and positive process. 
  
 Without exaggeration, new products like sonarworks really make this a golden age for audiophiles.


----------



## DivineCurrent

rudewolf said:


> Linear phase is a property of a filter, where the phase response of the filter is a linear function of frequency. The result is that all frequency components of the input signal are shifted in time (usually delayed) by the same constant amount, which is referred to as the phase delay. And consequently, there is no phase distortion due to the time delay of frequencies relative to one another.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Commenting on the pre-ringing effect of linear phase, I've done a little experimenting with hard snare hits and bass kicks repeated playing with both the minimum phase and and linear phase settings. Not only could I not hear any pre-ringing or echo, but I analyzed the waveform of the sonarworks output, and there wasn't the slightest bit of waveform difference between the two phase settings. Now, I could experiment with other lower pitched drum sounds, but from what I'm seeing, there seems to be hardly any difference made by the phase settings, if any. Now, if you were doing mastering/mixing work, it's a different story I guess, since you are constantly increasing/decreasing frequencies.

EDIT: Sorry, I recorded it the wrong way, and there is a very VERY small difference between the two waveforms. However, the difference is so small, that it is not audible at all. There probably is a little bit of pre-ringing, but I cant hear it even with the volume painfully high.


----------



## Bern2

Thank you Karl at Sonarworks for the videos on the pieces needed for folks like me.  (page 17 of this thread).  Allowed me to keep using iTunes which I'm familiar with.  I didn't work quite as fast as you did in the video....thank God for the ability to pause!
  
 I was using EqualizerAPO with the HD800's, but never got it to the point where I was happy.
  
 Now I'm happy.    Lovely product.
  
 Bern
  
 Using an old HP laptop with windows7/64bit.  iTunes...Teac Ha-501....HD800.


----------



## fjrabon

achelgeson said:


> rudewolf said:
> 
> 
> > Linear phase is a property of a filter, where the phase response of the filter is a linear function of frequency. The result is that all frequency components of the input signal are shifted in time (usually delayed) by the same constant amount, which is referred to as the phase delay. And consequently, there is no phase distortion due to the time delay of frequencies relative to one another.
> ...


 

 if I understand it correctly, it's at the nyquist frequency and thus shouldn't be audible itself, though on some systems it could theoretically cause distortion that is audible.  However, I haven't found this to be an issue.


----------



## thecrow

rudewolf said:


> Hey guys!
> 
> We just made vids on how to set up system wide calibration on both of the major platforms!
> 
> ...





 i just followed these instructions on my mac so as to use ref 3 when using my tidal app but wondering if ref 3 is actually on or off
  
 can i see that somehow?
 how can i bring up the sonarworks interface so i can tweak it?


----------



## Bern2

thecrow said:


> i just followed these instructions on my mac so as to use ref 3 when using my tidal app but wondering if ref 3 is actually on or off
> 
> can i see that somehow?
> how can i bring up the sonarworks interface so i can tweak it?


 
 Open pedalboard2.....reference3_x64 shows up for me on the tool bar...but I'm on a PC.
  
 Hope you figured it out.


----------



## thecrow

bern2 said:


> Open pedalboard2.....reference3_x64 shows up for me on the tool bar...but I'm on a PC.
> 
> Hope you figured it out.




I'll go back tonight and give another crack from the beginning

During the process ahiikd i be choosing (from memory here) ch2 or ch64?

Also I think there was am option of vst or plug in somewhere in this process. 

And did sonarworks come with an uninstaller? As i was thinking to totally uninstall and reinstall. As when i uninstall software i dont like loose ends

Ta


----------



## thecrow

ok - all good as i feel i've figured it all out
  
 thanks
  


bern2 said:


> Open pedalboard2.....reference3_x64 shows up for me on the tool bar...but I'm on a PC.
> 
> Hope you figured it out.


----------



## Bern2

thecrow said:


> ok - all good as i feel i've figured it all out
> 
> thanks


 
 Great....really like it with the HD800's.  Big difference for me.  I could never quite get it with trying to manually EQ it.
  
 There are some latency controls in pedalboard2 if you are having audio buffer issues.


----------



## phoenixdogfan

Some of the best sound I've ever heard in my 45 years of being an audiophile if not the very best.


----------



## SodaBoy

Agreed phoenixdogfan. I remember when I trialed the average profile with my HD650, I was already very impressed by it. I later sent my HD800 from Canada all the way to Latvia for an individualized calibration, it came back and the sound was perfect in every sense to me.
  
 Here is my advice to people out there:
  
 Try the plugin, the average profiles are not as accurate as the individualized profiles, but it will tell you if the reference curve works for you. If you like it, you should consider getting an individualized calibration, with all the attendant suggestions below.
  
 Buy a headphone with low distortion, good power handling, and a reasonable price. I recommend the HE400S: http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/HiFiMANHE400S.pdf
  
 It's inexpensive at $299 USD, has low distortion and strong power handling evidenced by the THD+n chart at 90dB and 100dB. Its FR is linear and relatively absent of steep peaks and valleys. It will take an EQ very well.
  
 Send your choice of headphone to Sonarworks for an individualized calibration, the cost of the service itself is almost nothing as it includes return shipping, I don't think they even make a profit on this. Majority of your costs will be shipping on your end.
  
 When you get your headphones back, you'll receive a profile that is channel matched and calibrated closely to their reference curve, and in my case I also requested and received charts with measured THD and a CSD waterfall plot. That is very useful and I couldn't get this anywhere else.
  
 Option B:
  
 Get the pre-calibrated headphones from Sonarworks directly, this will save you money and time, but in my opinion planars will take an EQ best, and they have no pre-calibrated planars. You could argue that the advantages of planars are marginal, and almost entirely in the reproduction of low bass, but I feel it is worth it especially with a capable and cheap planar like the HE400S. People may ask, if even cheap planars are so good, why did I get a HD800. I chose the HD800 because it matches or exceeds planars in everything except power handling, and is also light and comfortable, however it costed $1300 new, while the HE400S manages to come very close at only a small fraction of the price. I don't think any dynamic exceeds the HE400S in its price range, although the Fidelio X2 does come close. The HD650 is also comparable but costs more and suffers from distortion in the lower frequencies.
  
  
 Now with all this said, I will just ramble on a bit more about my personal experiences with audio. *Warning stream of consciousness ahead*
  
 I have owned and trialed high end headphones, and mid end headphones, this goes for IEMs as well. I feel that a portion of this hobby has become like alchemy; people try and buy endless combinations and never know what they will get, maybe they will transmute gold, I don't know, but at least it is fun for some. I don't mix and match multiple headphones, DACs, amps, and interconnects because in my opinion the results are dubious and it will cost me a lot of money. I only have one main system for each living area, and I am only concerned about the output. I think Sonarworks is perfect for this, you get reproducible results across a wide variety of headphones, you have a free trial and you know what you get in advance. I have been using the individualized profile for more than a year, and I have been completely satisfied by it. The only thing on my mind now is to get the rest of my headphones calibrated.
  
 If only there was a solution like Sonarworks for IEMs and smartphones, I would be over the moon. A good IEM with a single full range dynamic driver, calibrated, would be better than dealing with the wild goose chase that is the IEM market right now. However, the IEM market is fragmented, too many models to measure, the IEM compensation curve would be different, and the professional market is non-existent, leaving only quibbling audiophiles, moreover there are no Android players that can host VST plugins that I know of, nor is Sonarworks a media player. So it's a pipedream.


----------



## RudeWolf

sodaboy said:


> Get the pre-calibrated headphones from Sonarworks directly, this will save you money and time, but in my opinion planars will take an EQ best, and they have no pre-calibrated planars. You could argue that the advantages of planars are marginal, and almost entirely in the reproduction of low bass, but I feel it is worth it especially with a capable and cheap planar like the HE400S.


 
  
 Contact us and we can buy and calibrate just about any headphone for you. Just keep in mind that Audezes will be more expensive in EU, but Hifimans should be pretty same-ish. Oppo also seems to want an extra 100EUR for their PM-3 in EU. Pretty sure, we'd be able to arrange you buying 2nd hand here in HF and typing our lab as the shipment address. In some cases that might be an interesting option.
  
 As for planars - you are right about the power handling, it really helps in calibrating. Most of the time calibration means pumping extra juice in the drivers, so it elevates THD. I don't have any data for confirming this, but planars usually have time domain tradeoffs compared to dynamics. Might be the magnet sandwich mangling up the wavefronts, I don't know for sure. The result is that imaging usually isn't as good.
  
  


sodaboy said:


> If only there was a solution like Sonarworks for IEMs and smartphones, I would be over the moon. A good IEM with a single full range dynamic driver, calibrated, would be better than dealing with the wild goose chase that is the IEM market right now.


 
  
 We have done extensive research in calibrating IEM's. On paper it looks even easier than regular on/over-ear headphones, due to direct coupling with the ear drum one wouldn't need to fiddle with compensation curves.
  
 The reality, however is much more difficult. We have the equipment to do the calibration, but the results are highly inconsistent due to human factor. Different people wear IEM's very differently and tips change the picture a lot as well. There are even folks who prefer a shallow leaky fit, others insert incorrectly and get the infamous high pressure pocket which flexes both the driver and the eardrum. We can't really tell how our calibration will translate to the end user out there.
  
  


sodaboy said:


> If only there was a solution like Sonarworks for IEMs and smartphones, [...] there are no Android players that can host VST plugins that I know of, nor is Sonarworks a media player. So it's a pipedream.


 
  
 What if I told you that we're in late stage beta testing for an Android music player that has baked in headphone calibration?


----------



## MattTCG

> What if I told you that we're in late stage beta testing for an Android music player that has baked in headphone calibration?


 
  
 Well, I for one would be very excited about that. Supporting which headphones?


----------



## RudeWolf

Currently the same ones we have for the plug-in. We'll add more consumer cans in the future.


----------



## SodaBoy

Rudewolf, thanks a lot, this is the best news I have heard in the portable audio realm since ever really. A Sonarworks player along with a nice closed compact circumaural like the PM-3 or M50 would be a very optimal portable setup. I could have used something like that during my long flights.
  
 The holy grail though is IEM calibration, it would bring a much needed standard to the IEM market. The IEM landscape is like a wild west right now, and not in a good way. Manufacturers are not divulging their target curves, many are trying to achieve FR targets with multiple drivers leading to time domain issues, others are in fact simply using this as an excuse to cram more drivers into their IEMs to charge a higher premium, etc etc. They are all approaching a problem from the analog side that should really be better dealt with from the DSP side.
  
 I can definitely feel you on the issues of IEM fit, and how this would effect consistency for the end user. There are some IEMs that are very ambiguous with insertion depth such as the RE400, while there are other IEMs that are shallow fit and much simpler, leaving only issues of seal. It did suddenly hit me though that people who would seek calibration would more likely insert their IEMs in a proper way, as there is a bit of self selection bias going on.
  
 I do hope that Sonarworks continues to work something out for IEMs, and maybe in the future offer an IEM calibration service with a big disclaimer for punters like me. There is also the fact that IEMs would be very cheap to ship, and individual calibrations/pre-calibrated sets could maybe even turn to be very profitable. Since IEMs are often used to share music between friends, this could lead to a lot of word of mouth sales and expand the brand, and, oh wait I'm rambling now.


----------



## edwardsean

sodaboy said:


> Rudewolf, thanks a lot, this is the best news I have heard in the portable audio realm since ever really. A Sonarworks player along with a nice closed compact circumaural like the PM-3 or M50 would be a very optimal portable setup. I could have used something like that during my long flights.
> 
> The holy grail though is IEM calibration, it would bring a much needed standard to the IEM market. The IEM landscape is like a wild west right now, and not in a good way. Manufacturers are not divulging their target curves, many are trying to achieve FR targets with multiple drivers leading to time domain issues, others are in fact simply using this as an excuse to cram more drivers into their IEMs to charge a higher premium, etc etc. They are all approaching a problem from the analog side that should really be better dealt with from the DSP side.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I agree. A mobile version of sonarworks sounds great, but my fullsize headphones are largely wedded to my desktop setup. If I'm going mobile IEMs are the natural choice for me. 
  
 At the same time, the logistical difficulties Rudewolf brought up are a real challenge. The frequency curve will fluctuate wildly with insertion depth and positioning. At the same time, if the correction could be measured against some ideal placement, the consumer could play with positioning after applying sonarworks.
  
 As it is now, once I insert the phones I move it around to get the optimum sound. I would think adding sonarworks would give me a better ideal I could achieve by exploring placement/insertion depth. .


----------



## Wreckgar7

Can anyone please explain how i install this program step by step? Ive downloaded the free trial headphone calibration, entered the activation code, and then what? It just says in the right corner "License not active" ..........


----------



## Wreckgar7

edit: nevermind, fixed it


----------



## rudra

Does anyone have trouble storing presets in Windows 10 & Foobar.


----------



## SodaBoy

rudra said:


> Does anyone have trouble storing presets in Windows 10 & Foobar.


 

 I lost my presets a few months ago, but it was quickly fixed by re-activating the plugin. It should automatically redownload its libraries on its own, but its faster to just reactivate it.


----------



## LindaLiulo

I have! and not bad


----------



## rudra

sodaboy said:


> I lost my presets a few months ago, but it was quickly fixed by re-activating the plugin. It should automatically redownload its libraries on its own, but its faster to just reactivate it.


 
 I used a different VST wrapper for foobar. it see have to fixed the issue.


----------



## lenroot77

Anyone running Sonarworks system wide on their Windows 10 PC. I'm going to try the method listed on the Sonarworks site using VB Audio Cable and Pedal Board.

Just curious if this is what works best? Or maybe someone has found a better way?


----------



## phoenixdogfan

​I  use Sonarworks as a VST plug in on JRiver MC21.  Pretty seamless,  but I just listen,  don't use it in a DAW for mixing or production.


----------



## lenroot77

phoenixdogfan said:


> ​I  use Sonarworks as a VST plug in on JRiver MC21.  Pretty seamless,  but I just listen,  don't use it in a DAW for mixing or production.




This is what I'm currently doing I'd like it to run system wide so that even sound outside of Jriver will run thru sonar works. Netflix, Amazon, ect.


----------



## DivineCurrent

lenroot77 said:


> This is what I'm currently doing I'd like it to run system wide so that even sound outside of Jriver will run thru sonar works. Netflix, Amazon, ect.


 
 I am using VB cable along with PedalBoard 2 just like the video from Sonarworks. No complaints from me, just make sure in order to reduce latency and lag as much as possible, set your DAC and VB cable settings to the highest rate possible, for me that is 96000 hz. I was using 41000 hz for a while, and it was painfully laggy, but the settings are easy to change in Pedalboard, I also set the audio buffer size to 960 (10 ms) and it is working great.


----------



## lenroot77

achelgeson said:


> I am using VB cable along with PedalBoard 2 just like the video from Sonarworks. No complaints from me, just make sure in order to reduce latency and lag as much as possible, set your DAC and VB cable settings to the highest rate possible, for me that is 96000 hz. I was using 41000 hz for a while, and it was painfully laggy, but the settings are easy to change in Pedalboard, I also set the audio buffer size to 960 (10 ms) and it is working great.




Got this to work last night... Very nice set up. I also received a coupon from Sonarworks this morning... Really thinking I may have to purchase this. 

That being said it's also making me want to give the hd800's another whirl.


----------



## lenroot77

Id be very curious to see how Sonarworks would work with the hd700's while I was never very fond of their overall sound. They are super comfy and have a great soundstage. 
Has anyone sent a pair in for calibration? 
I thought I read hd700 thread people where using the hd800 profile and tweaking it? Anyone have any feedback on that?


----------



## lenroot77

lenroot77 said:


> Id be very curious to see how Sonarworks would work with the hd700's while I was never very fond of their overall sound. They are super comfy and have a great soundstage.
> Has anyone sent a pair in for calibration?
> I thought I read hd700 thread people where using the hd800 profile and tweaking it? Anyone have any feedback on that?




Well forget the 700's... Picked up the hd800's again and I'm really loving them with the Sonarworks on flat! 

Just amazing!


----------



## MattTCG

^^ Yup...me too.


----------



## Bern2

Not only love how the 800's sound with sonarworks, but the use of the bass and tilt comes in handy on a lot of my early 80's cd's.  Very well implemented.  
  
 Bern


----------



## MattTCG

@RudeWolf is there any chance that you guys would consider adding a few headphones to the software? Possibly we could take a poll of around five headphones and see which have the most interest. Personally I'd like to see Audioquest Nighthawk and Ether Flow on that list. The Nighthawk seems an easy choice. I'm not sure about the Ether as there doesn't seem to be any planar magnetics on the list. 
  
 If it weren't for your location, I would have mailed in all my headphones for individual calibration already.


----------



## lenroot77

matttcg said:


> @RudeWolf
> is there any chance that you guys would consider adding a few headphones to the software? Possibly we could take a poll of around five headphones and see which have the most interest. Personally I'd like to see Audioquest Nighthawk and Ether Flow on that list. The Nighthawk seems an easy choice. I'm not sure about the Ether as there doesn't seem to be any planar magnetics on the list.
> 
> If it weren't for your location, I would have mailed in all my headphones for individual calibration already.




I wouldn't mind seeing a HIFI-man on the list either.


----------



## MattTCG

lenroot77 said:


> I wouldn't mind seeing a HIFI-man on the list either.


 
  
 Yep, +1. Maybe HEX.


----------



## phoenixdogfan

Audeze LCD 2.2 and LCD X have generic eq curves in latest version.


----------



## RudeWolf

matttcg said:


> @RudeWolf is there any chance that you guys would consider adding a few headphones to the software? Possibly we could take a poll of around five headphones and see which have the most interest. Personally I'd like to see Audioquest Nighthawk and Ether Flow on that list. The Nighthawk seems an easy choice. I'm not sure about the Ether as there doesn't seem to be any planar magnetics on the list.
> 
> If it weren't for your location, I would have mailed in all my headphones for individual calibration already.


 
  
 These higher end cans are pretty hard to get. As for orthos, we have already added LCD-2.2 and LCD-X to the list, both calibrate very well due to terrific power handling. We will also add the Oppo PM-3 soon.


----------



## MattTCG

rudewolf said:


> These higher end cans are pretty hard to get. As for orthos, we have already added LCD-2.2 and LCD-X to the list, both calibrate very well due to terrific power handling. We will also add the Oppo PM-3 soon.


 
  
 Very nice! Is the pm-3 the only new one on the list?


----------



## RudeWolf

Can't really say much more about the final selection of additions, but PM-3 surely won't be the only newcomer.


----------



## MattTCG

^^ That's great!! How about current owners of the software? Will there be an additional purchase required for the new additions?


----------



## DivineCurrent

Has anyone had the chance to try some of the closed back headphones with Sonarworks? If so, how well do the KRK KNS-8400 or Focal Spirit Pro translate with the calibration? I'm also considering the Shure SRH-840.


----------



## RudeWolf

The Sony MDR-7506 is a crowd favourite, the effect is so positive that we usually use it for demonstration. I mean - they don't suddenly transform into open-backs, but getting rid of that treble spike does wonders.


----------



## canonlp

Any chance of getting the HD800S on board as well? Or does the slight increase of the bass distortion hinder it compared to the HD800?


----------



## RudeWolf

So far we have measured only one pair and the calibration went very good. I'd say that it's only a matter of time once we get a average profile out.


----------



## edwardsean

rudewolf said:


> So far we have measured only one pair and the calibration went very good. I'd say that it's only a matter of time once we get a average profile out.


 

 Can I ask, if you put a pair of the HD800S through Sonarworks and a pair of the HD800 through Sonarworks would the result be, more or less, the same? 
  
 I'm sure they will measure somewhat differently at the end, but if you're using Sonarworks does it make sense to have both phones in your opinion?


----------



## hifuguy

I too am looking forward to trying out the 800S Calibration as well!


----------



## MattTCG

@RudeWolf   Any updates on the Android software for headphone calibration? I know that you said that you were close a few weeks ago.


----------



## ansuser

It's slready there in beta phase (and I mean *beta*) . Check out soundigo.


----------



## phoenixdogfan

Wonder if anyone can help me with an issue I have with Sonarworks.
  
 Currently I use JRiver MC21 with Sonarworks as a plug in.  My two EQ's are a custom EQ for my LCD X's and the flat bass off the shelf for my SD modded Senn 800.  I output everything of OOYH using Windows Direct and setting the DSP to output 7.1 into OOYH.
  
 When I do this for two channel sound, Sonarworks acts as an EQ for both channels, however, when I'm playing 5.1 or 7.1 materials via either Netflix or from my Blue Ray rips I notice the Jriver (Sonarworks plug-in to OOYH to my IFI Idsd Micro to LCD X/Senn HD 800 still only outputs a two channel signal.  When I deactivate the Sonarworks plug in,  JRiver now outputs either 5.1 or 7.1 to OOYH.
  
 Is there some way to get JRiver to output a multi channel Sonarworks data stream to OOYH, so it can do EQ'd multichannel?
  
 Any users out there who know how to do this?


----------



## ansuser

phoenixdogfan said:


> Wonder if anyone can help me with an issue I have with Sonarworks.
> 
> Currently I use JRiver MC21 with Sonarworks as a plug in.  My two EQ's are a custom EQ for my LCD X's and the flat bass off the shelf for my SD modded Senn 800.  I output everything of OOYH using Windows Direct and setting the DSP to output 7.1 into OOYH.
> 
> ...




Try to change order of plugins in signal chain. First ooyh then sw.


----------



## joejoejoe

absolutely love this plugin but the saving default profiles and being able to remove profiles needs some work or some documentation on how to clean them up. i've got 3 random Default profiles along with the one profile I've tweaked and set, which I have to manually select and tweak each time I open it because it doesn't save any of my changes. 
  
 this is using the pedalboard and cable connections for systemwide EQ.
  
 maybe I'm missing something. other than that, this has been a game changer. great stuff.


----------



## MattTCG

If you guys could add a few more headphone profiles to the software, your product could really take off. Come on guys, I know you can do it.


----------



## Dimension

Well... I tried the software on my beloved K712's which I've been using since release (I had K702's before since 2011). I am sadly disappointed that I've been listening to such heavily tailored headphones. I have been mixing extensively on them and now that I hear what it REALLY sounds like I have to re-train my ears to get to know them. Everyone warned me that K712's make everything sound so nice... I guess thats what I get.

 Switching between the wet/dry, I hear where they've added and subtracted frequencies. I don't have educated and professional audio engineer ears but I can definitely hear WHY they've subtracted 3kHz and added 6-8kHz. And although I like the neutral sub frequencies, the whole change saddens me. It feels unfair, but I guess I can only start from here on upward now that I can trust that this is what it really sounds like. 

 I've read everything on this thread but no one has the K712's, I can't quite put my finger on it but I can almost hear the plastic frame of the K712's. Like, I hear the chamber as if it's not being filled with it's usual sound and the chamber is not pretty anymore... Can anyone try the K712's and share their experiences?

 One question I do have (noob mixing question)... What about using the wet/dry to get a better perception of what I am EQing? Or should I just stay with the wet?

 Nonetheless I greatly appreciate the software, I just hope I can rely on it since I can't use monitors!


----------



## pieman3141

I had the K712s and used them with Sonarworks for a while. My wet/dry ratio was 33%, and I used a +1 tilt and a +1db bass boost. Sounded very nice to me.


----------



## bavinck

matttcg said:


> If you guys could add a few more headphone profiles to the software, your product could really take off. Come on guys, I know you can do it.


 
 Yes,
 hd700
 he400 (all hifiman)
 So on...


----------



## bavinck

ansuser said:


> Try to change order of plugins in signal chain. First ooyh then sw.


 
 How do you do that? ooyh needs to after the eq in jriver, no?


----------



## bavinck

Where is the setting for "no limit" in the sonarworks plugin for jriver? Those of you using SSBB, are you doing that with a jriver pe or the sonarworks plugin?


----------



## phoenixdogfan

You can't put OOYH before JRiver  or Sonarworks.  It's not a plug in, it's a virtual sound card and needs to be the last link in the processing chain.  Sonarworks is strictly 2 channel, so it can't be used to equalize a 5 or 7 channel stream unfortunately.  Read Darin Fong's explanation in the OOYH thread for further explanation.


----------



## jlshfi

Hi , I just downloaded the demo .. this will not install on my WINDOWS XP machine .. is that normal ? where are the machine specs ??

thanks


----------



## RudeWolf

Sorry, XP is not officially supported. My guys say that it might run, on some configs, but that was a very slim "might". For PC you need at least Vista or rather - Win 7.


----------



## jlshfi

Thanks for the info .. I figured as much .. I am likely buying a new laptop within 2 months anyways .. so I'll be in the Win 7 or Win 10 world soon .. can't wait to try this !!

Cheers, JLS.


----------



## fjrabon

bavinck said:


> Where is the setting for "no limit" in the sonarworks plugin for jriver? Those of you using SSBB, are you doing that with a jriver pe or the sonarworks plugin?


 

 there's no "setting" for "no limit" the no limit profile is a profile you have to install, not a setting to be clicked on and off.  It doesn't, by default come with the program, you can get it if you do a custom profile by sending your headphones in and request that they make your custom profile no limit, or if you can make your own profile by hand.  Took me a while to figure this out as well.


----------



## Allanmarcus

Check out the sale, if you are interested. $60 for the basic plugin


----------



## rigo

Do multiple plug-ins need to be purchased for multiple computers?


----------



## Allanmarcus

Web site says

Contains:

3 instances of Sonarworks Reference 3 AU, AAX Native, RTAS and VST plug-ins (Mac or Win)


----------



## mysticstryk

So I've gone through all the steps to get the plugin to be compatible with Music Bee, but I still can't access it. I'm willing to use different playback software, but that's a whole other discussion. I also have mediamonkey installed as well.  I have the trial and just want to try it out with my HD800 and googling guides have been absolutely no help that I can find.
  
 Edit:  Downloaded the JRiver trial.  Now that was super easy to get it working, but would prefer not to have to use a new player that is rather expensive.
  
 Edit 2: Is there a way to get this to work when streaming Tidal?


----------



## fjrabon

mysticstryk said:


> So I've gone through all the steps to get the plugin to be compatible with Music Bee, but I still can't access it. I'm willing to use different playback software, but that's a whole other discussion. I also have mediamonkey installed as well.  I have the trial and just want to try it out with my HD800 and googling guides have been absolutely no help that I can find.
> 
> Edit:  Downloaded the JRiver trial.  Now that was super easy to get it working, but would prefer not to have to use a new player that is rather expensive.
> 
> Edit 2: Is there a way to get this to work when streaming Tidal?


 

 I use audiohijack.  I vaguely recall it being somewhat expensive when I originally bought it, but to me it was definitely worth it as I use it to manage a lot of stuff.  With AudioHijack you can capture audio from any program and process it through the system.  iTunes, web browser, tidal, etc.  Literally anything that has audio can run through it.  A huge benefit is that I can use it to save different headphone and use case profiles.  
  
 Here you can see I created different profiles for each headphone I have:
  


 This allows me to save custom settings within sonarworks and other DSP programs I use for each headphone, so that custom setup is just a click away
  

  
 Here is what it looks like when you open one of the profiles.  The two sources I have setup are iTunes and safari here.  They then feed into sonarworks, which then feeds into my goodhertz plug-ins, then to my DAC.  But it even has usages outside of that.  You can use it to record audio.  So, let's say you want your sonarworks calibration on the go?  You can record the post sonarworks output by putting a recorder after it in the chain.  THe resulting file will be a processed file, that you can then transfer to your mobile player.  I've never really went through the trouble of doing it (though I have used the audio recorder for other things and it is very high fidelity).

 I've tried most of the programs that will host sonarworks, and I think audiohijack is easily the most full featured and easy to use.


----------



## mysticstryk

fjrabon said:


> I use audiohijack.  I vaguely recall it being somewhat expensive when I originally bought it, but to me it was definitely worth it as I use it to manage a lot of stuff.  With AudioHijack you can capture audio from any program and process it through the system.  iTunes, web browser, tidal, etc.  Literally anything that has audio can run through it.  A huge benefit is that I can use it to save different headphone and use case profiles.
> 
> Here you can see I created different profiles for each headphone I have:
> 
> ...




Thanks! I'll take a look at that program.


----------



## Allanmarcus

For Mac users I wrote up instruction that use Sound Siphon 2 (free). The instructions are for cross feed, but I use the same instructions for SonarWorks. Because it's system level, it captures all sound and processes it. Since Apple provides a 31 band equalizer, you can that too for free.
  
 https://1drv.ms/w/s!AtMV-AQgKZCXgfRLHLI6LcnXoh0zKw
  
 let me know if anyone has questions.


----------



## Yoga

Another vote for Audiohijack here. Incredibly useful and customisable. Well worth the outlay.


----------



## MaudDib

A bunch of new phones got added to the supported list!  Been wanting to try sonarworks for so long and now they finally have the yamaha hph-mt-220s AND the HD-700s i'm about to get.  First impressions are REALLY good.  Everything I've listened to so far sounds much more "right."


----------



## Roll

Received an email:
  
After long weeks of measuring, testing and tweaking we're releasing our biggest supported headphone update yet! 
  
With cans ranging from the noble-but-bright AKG K812 to everyman's Beats now even more people can join the headphone revolution!
  
  
  
 http://us9.campaign-archive1.com/?u=aa7648c555d53d896887bac90&id=fa4039fa04&e=a0645859e8


----------



## lenroot77

Nice to see the Phillips on there too!


----------



## MattTCG

edit, double post


----------



## MattTCG

I have to admit that I'm disappointed with the list. I mean, don't get me wrong....this software is worth the price for the hd800 alone, easily. But there are so many headphones that are such great candidates for SW EQ:
  
 *Ethers (all variations)
  
 *Nighthawk
  
 *Hifiman Edition x
  
 ...to name just a few. Oh well, maybe one day.


----------



## gikigill

The HD800 is a different beast when paired with Sonarworks.


----------



## Yoga

matttcg said:


> I have to admit that I'm disappointed with the list. I mean, don't get me wrong....this software is worth the price for the hd800 alone, easily. But there are so many headphones that are such great candidates for SW EQ:
> 
> *Ethers (all variations)
> 
> ...


 
  
 I may be buying the Utopia or Ether Flows this week. If I go with the Flow I'll send them off to be calibrated and share the calibration file here.
  


gikigill said:


> The HD800 is a different beast when paired with Sonarworks.


 
  
 Incredible isn't it. I can't get my head around anyone with HD800's _not_ using SWR3. Makes no sense whatsoever!


----------



## gikigill

I'm getting the HD800S too to get a good idea as to what is the difference between those two after using Sonarworks.


----------



## RudeWolf

matttcg said:


> I have to admit that I'm disappointed with the list. I mean, don't get me wrong....this software is worth the price for the hd800 alone, easily. But there are so many headphones that are such great candidates for SW EQ:
> 
> *Ethers (all variations)
> 
> ...


 
  
 As a weathered head-fier I'd be disappointed too. But you need to keep in mind that we're a pro audio brand first and foremost. These lists are generated by user requests and most of these guys are using these cans for mixing. Sometime next year we might do extra work on the 'phile side of things.
  
 I'd very much like to do a joint mass measurement project with niche headphone mfg's, but so far most of my team is neck deep into pro stuff.


----------



## MattTCG

rudewolf said:


> As a weathered head-fier I'd be disappointed too. But you need to keep in mind that we're a pro audio brand first and foremost. These lists are generated by user requests and most of these guys are using these cans for mixing. Sometime next year we might do extra work on the 'phile side of things.
> 
> I'd very much like to do a joint mass measurement project with niche headphone mfg's, but so far most of my team is neck deep into pro stuff.


 
  
 I really do appreciate that you guys make an effort to communicate with the community here. And yes, I understand that this is a more of a "side project" for you guys than your primary interest. You really have done something special with the hd800 and I advocate for you every chance that I get. 
  
 I would send in all my headphones for individual calibration if only the shipping weren't so prohibitive. Regardless, thank you for what you've contributed to the audiophile community and I certainly appreciate that you'll be looking to add other headphones in the future. 
  
 Happy holidays to you guys and continued success....


----------



## Yoga

rudewolf said:


> As a weathered head-fier I'd be disappointed too. But you need to keep in mind that we're a pro audio brand first and foremost. These lists are generated by user requests and most of these guys are using these cans for mixing. Sometime next year we might do extra work on the 'phile side of things.
> 
> I'd very much like to do a joint mass measurement project with niche headphone mfg's, but so far most of my team is neck deep into pro stuff.


 

 What's the turn-around for individual headphone calibration if sending from the UK?
  
 Will be either Ether Flows or Focal Utopias.


----------



## MattTCG

yoga said:


> What's the turn-around for individual headphone calibration if sending from the UK?
> 
> Will be either Ether Flows or Focal Utopias.


 
  
 Wow, now there's two headphones that I'd love to hear with SW.


----------



## Yoga

matttcg said:


> Wow, now there's two headphones that I'd love to hear with SW.


 

 A/B comparing them through SWR3 would be incredible. I'll have to make do without unfortunately!


----------



## fjrabon

rudewolf said:


> As a weathered head-fier I'd be disappointed too. But you need to keep in mind that we're a pro audio brand first and foremost. These lists are generated by user requests and most of these guys are using these cans for mixing. Sometime next year we might do extra work on the 'phile side of things.
> 
> I'd very much like to do a joint mass measurement project with niche headphone mfg's, but so far most of my team is neck deep into pro stuff.




When I saw the list, I was first a touch disappointed, and then just thought "yep, that makes sense."

Especially beats, partly because they're popular, but also partly because I've seen a lot of the micro-label hip hop producers actually using them to put tracks together. 

On the plus side, I'm actually glad you guys are a pro-studio company first, because it means you can't get away with the bullschitt that a lot of "audiophile" companies do. Coming from a pro studio world means your software has a level of no nonsense, no compromise quality to it that I really appreciate. I'm not sure it would be the same if you came up in the snake oil world of audiophile land.


----------



## RudeWolf

fjrabon said:


> On the plus side, I'm actually glad you guys are a pro-studio company first, because it means you can't get away with the bullschitt that a lot of "audiophile" companies do. Coming from a pro studio world means your software has a level of no nonsense, no compromise quality to it that I really appreciate. I'm not sure it would be the same if you came up in the snake oil world of audiophile land.


 
  
 I too once thought that snake oil is a 'phile realm exclusive.


----------



## pervysage

I don't get it. How are programs (or I guess they are plug-ins?) like Sonarworks and equalizer programs supposed to be used? Do you need some kind of software to run them? I am pretty new to this whole thing.
  
 So far I downloading a couple programs like Sonarworks Reference 3 and DMG Audio EQuilibrium and they both just installed a bunch of folders on my computer with various .dll and plug in files. I am not seeing any of the GUI's that people have been posting.
  
 I thought it was as simple as downloading the program and running the .exe


----------



## MaudDib

These plugins run in AU, AAX Native, RTAS and VST format.  Which are plugin formats mostly for pro studio plugins.  You need a program or host that supports one of those plugin types.  Here are videos showing how to use the program system wide: http://sonarworks.com/2016/03/system-wide-calibration/


----------



## gikigill

pervysage said:


> I don't get it. How are programs (or I guess they are plug-ins?) like Sonarworks and equalizer programs supposed to be used? Do you need some kind of software to run them? I am pretty new to this whole thing.
> I thought it was as simple as downloading the program and running the .exe


 
  
 Okay, I got it to work with foobar2000. Here's what you need to do.
  
 Download and install the free trial of Sonarworks Reference 3 Headphone. (Or purchase it.)
  
 Download and install this VST adapter in foobar2000.
  
 Go to Components, VST plugins and add the Sonarworks plugin.
  
 Go to Playback, DSP Manager and activate the Sonarworks plugin. Then click Configure Selected.


----------



## Roll

pervysage said:


> I don't get it. How are programs (or I guess they are plug-ins?) like Sonarworks and equalizer programs supposed to be used? Do you need some kind of software to run them? I am pretty new to this whole thing.
> 
> So far I downloading a couple programs like Sonarworks Reference 3 and DMG Audio EQuilibrium and they both just installed a bunch of folders on my computer with various .dll and plug in files. I am not seeing any of the GUI's that people have been posting.
> 
> I thought it was as simple as downloading the program and running the .exe


 
 It was mention earlier...worked for me:
  
  
I follow this to set up, makes life easy
 
https://sonarworks.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/sections/202298185-System-wide-Calibration


----------



## lenroot77

Any impressions on the hd700's with sonar works? Curious how it compares with the hd800's with sonar works.


----------



## MattTCG

lenroot77 said:


> Any impressions on the hd700's with sonar works? Curious how it compares with the hd800's with sonar works.


 
  
 I'm not sure that even the might Sonarworks could tame that ice pick...


----------



## lenroot77

matttcg said:


> I'm not sure that even the might Sonarworks could tame that ice pick...




That's exactly what I wanna know!


----------



## phoenixdogfan

I can say from personal experience that Sonarworks is a beautiful match for my HD 800's with the full range file. I don't know if there exists a file for the HD 700's, however.  That means you would have to send them to Riga, Latvia to get a custom correction file.
  
 If that were done, I know of absolutely no reason why SW can't tame the 'Ice Pick".


----------



## RudeWolf

phoenixdogfan said:


> I can say from personal experience that Sonarworks is a beautiful match for my HD 800's with the full range file. I don't know if there exists a file for the HD 700's, however.  That means you would have to send them to Riga, Latvia to get a custom correction file.
> 
> If that were done, I know of absolutely no reason why SW can't tame the 'Ice Pick".


 
  
 There is a HD700 file now! Just re-activate your plug-in. My experience is that it doesn't really get to HD800 level, soundstage wise mostly. But it does become immensely more listenable.


----------



## MaudDib

Sounds really good!  Been listening to them almost exclusively with sonarworks on.  When I A/B I vastlly prefer sonar being activated.  I've also been messing around with TB Isone, Redline Monitor, and Waves NX.  And I think pairing Sonarworks with Waves NX with room ambience turned off is my favorite. 
  
 It's also really wild how similar Sonarworks makes the HD-700s sound to the yamha HPH-MT-220s.  Since you take away most of the differences as far as tonal balance goes you can focus in more on how the headphones create space and deal with transients etc...  Interesting stuff for sure.


----------



## lenroot77

Is there much of a difference between the hd600 and hd650 when using Sonarworks? Or are they more or less the same with the software?


----------



## fjrabon

lenroot77 said:


> Is there much of a difference between the hd600 and hd650 when using Sonarworks? Or are they more or less the same with the software?




HD650 is just a bit more dynamic and a bit more resolution. But they're 99.9999999% the same


----------



## MattTCG

Just opened up the ATH r70x. Listened for a few minutes...thought it was quite nice. Then cued up the same music with Sonarworks enabled...yuck!! What the crap. How can this be? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  
  
 Then after a double check I realized that I accidentally picked the wrong profile. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Now, it's sounding much better.


----------



## pervysage

Is Sonarworks a good option for manual equalizer use as well? I noticed options for bass boost, tilt, etc. 

Baically wondering about the uses of the Sonarworks plug in for unsupported headphones (i.e. Focal Utopia)


----------



## MattTCG

pervysage said:


> Is Sonarworks a good option for manual equalizer use as well? I noticed options for bass boost, tilt, etc.
> 
> Baically wondering about the uses of the Sonarworks plug in for unsupported headphones (i.e. Focal Utopia)


 
  
 No go for unsupported phones. No magic to be found there. It's brilliant with supported hp's though.


----------



## fjrabon

pervysage said:


> Is Sonarworks a good option for manual equalizer use as well? I noticed options for bass boost, tilt, etc.
> 
> Baically wondering about the uses of the Sonarworks plug in for unsupported headphones (i.e. Focal Utopia)


 

 you can sort of halfway do it by picking the most similar headphone amongst the supported profiles and then really just trial and erroring with tilt, bass boost, different target curves and dry/wet mix.  However, it's kind of a pain and produces mediocre at best results.  At that point you're better served either: 1) sending in your headphone to be measured (they will measure any non-electrostatic headphone and provide you with a 100% custom profile that exactly fits YOUR headphone) or 2) just using a regular EQ program.


----------



## DivineCurrent

So, I've had the HD650 individual calibration for a while, and I have been enjoying it immensely. I get that nice flat bass down to 30 Hz, really makes a difference in bass heavy modern music.  usually use the flat curve, and that is where my question comes in. Listening to frequency sweeps, I notice even with the flat setting, I'm still hearing peaks and dips. Granted they are very small, but I notice in particular a large dip in frequency around 6500-7000 Hz. This happens to me both calibrated and calibrated, and also with my Beyer DT880 in the same frequencies. So, do different ears hear different peaks and dips in the frequencies, even with something like Sonarworks? Because I assume Sonarworks uses measurements from dummy head microphones that may have different ear frequency resonances.


----------



## fjrabon

achelgeson said:


> So, I've had the HD650 individual calibration for a while, and I have been enjoying it immensely. I get that nice flat bass down to 30 Hz, really makes a difference in bass heavy modern music.  usually use the flat curve, and that is where my question comes in. Listening to frequency sweeps, I notice even with the flat setting, I'm still hearing peaks and dips. Granted they are very small, but I notice in particular a large dip in frequency around 6500-7000 Hz. This happens to me both calibrated and calibrated, and also with my Beyer DT880 in the same frequencies. So, do different ears hear different peaks and dips in the frequencies, even with something like Sonarworks? Because I assume Sonarworks uses measurements from dummy head microphones that may have different ear frequency resonances.




The most likely explanation is you have a small amount of hearing loss there. But yes, everybody hears just a little differently. My hearing has a larger than normal peak at 3kHz, for example. And I have some hearing loss at 13kHz.


----------



## RudeWolf

pervysage said:


> Is Sonarworks a good option for manual equalizer use as well? I noticed options for bass boost, tilt, etc.
> 
> Baically wondering about the uses of the Sonarworks plug in for unsupported headphones (i.e. Focal Utopia)


 
  
 Just get a good regular EQ for that (Fabfilter comes to mind). Our software is less of an equaliser in the traditional sense, because the DSP engine is configured by a measurement based calibration curve. You can tweak it afterwards, but it's just a nice extra to have.


----------



## Yoga

Hey man. Out of interest, would you be so kind as to share your Ghz MS and CanOpener settings for he HD800? Would be interested to try this software since I've returned the Phonitor (caused ground loop/hum issues - to be replaced by the Violectric V281).


----------



## fjrabon

yoga said:


> Hey man. Out of interest, would you be so kind as to share your Ghz MS and CanOpener settings for he HD800? Would be interested to try this software since I've returned the Phonitor (caused ground loop/hum issues - to be replaced by the Violectric V281).




http://www.head-fi.org/t/816232/goodhertz-audio-plug-ins-canopener-and-mid-side#post_13097984

Since I wrote that I tweaked my setting just a tad. I now use the 70 degree settting in CanOpener most of the time and I went to 130 in midsize but upped the EQ amount for the middle to 3dB and pulled the sides by 2dB. I'll take some screenshots later today of what I'm currently using settings wise.


----------



## Yoga

fjrabon said:


> http://www.head-fi.org/t/816232/goodhertz-audio-plug-ins-canopener-and-mid-side#post_13097984
> 
> Since I wrote that I tweaked my setting just a tad. I now use the 70 degree settting in CanOpener most of the time and I went to 130 in midsize but upped the EQ amount for the middle to 3dB and pulled the sides by 2dB. I'll take some screenshots later today of what I'm currently using settings wise.


 
  
 Thanks very much (and screenshots will be helpful); I'll grab the plugins :¬)


----------



## johnjen

bavinck said:


> Where is the setting for "no limit" in the sonarworks plugin for jriver? Those of you using SSBB, are you doing that with a jriver pe or the sonarworks plugin?


 
 Sorry for the late response, but I just found this thread…
  
 The "no limit" compensation curve is a variant of the average curve and is available for only a few HP's.
 The HD800 and the HD650 have these "no limits" curve, and now that the HD700 is available I suspect that someone will request a "no limits" curve for it as well.
  
 And earlier in this thread was a link for the ABOOOB file which is the HD800 no limits curve.
  
 Essentially a "no limits" variant does not bandwidth limit the compensation curve such that the compensation is full bandwidth (20 to 20KHz).
 This is really only useful for non pro audio users (us audiophools) who want to explore the VERY bottom end, which is what the SSBB enhances even further.
  
 But all this bass boost (potentially, depending) requires plenty of extra headroom especially from your amp.
 And make sure that the DSP stack doesn't go into clipping, due to all of the added emphasis down low.
 Those clipping indicators inside Ref-3 are really handy for this purpose.
  
 JJ


----------



## slex

rudewolf said:


> There is a HD700 file now! Just re-activate your plug-in. My experience is that it doesn't really get to HD800 level, soundstage wise mostly. But it does become immensely more listenable.



Are you using tube or ss amp? I got a HD700 hanging around and might activate my OTL amp for it


----------



## jlshfi

Hi,  I would like to live-mix on my external stand-alone Yamaha AW4416 daw-box .. while listening to the live mix on my pc with REF 3 inserted somehow ..would anyone know how to achieve this ?
  
 Here's the basic route :
  
 AW4416 stereo Live outputs (rca's) -> rca to usb converter -> my pc's USB port -> ...??? ... -> SW REF 3 - > ... ?? .. listen somehow
  
 I have Foobar2000 running the REF 3 plugin .. it gives me a good idea of what REF 3  can do for recordings I know well.
  
 I would just like to use this is a live mixing tool .. but my daw is not pc based (aw4416) ,, so this is a challenge 
  
 ANY IDEAS ?
  
 thanks.
  
 John.


----------



## pervysage

Is it recommended to use the 'Avoid Clipping' feature? (toggle it on)?


----------



## johnjen

pervysage said:


> Is it recommended to use the 'Avoid Clipping' feature? (toggle it on)?


 
 I wound up not using it because it made to much of an adjustment.
 But for some who prefer the 'set and forget' type of setup it can work well.
  
 The trick when it is turned off is to monitor the clipping indicators in the ref-3 plugin (input and output) and make adjustments to the DSP stack accordingly.
  
 Clipping whether digital or analog will kill any improvements made elsewhere.
  
 JJ


----------



## pervysage

johnjen said:


> I wound up not using it because it made to much of an adjustment.
> But for some who prefer the 'set and forget' type of setup it can work well.
> 
> The trick when it is turned off is to monitor the clipping indicators in the ref-3 plugin (input and output) and make adjustments to the DSP stack accordingly.
> ...


 
  
 Ah, I see. Thanks.
  
 I think I am the more set and forget type of person. I don't always have the ref plugin in front of me so I would rather just set the avoid clipping feature on and adjust volume on my amp accordingly.
  
 Anyways, I have to say, the Sonarworks plugin with the HD800 average file loaded is pretty damn amazing... really transforms the headphone into a different beast. Pressing the on/off button of the calibration shows me the stock HD800 is almost unlistenable in comparison, wow.


----------



## RudeWolf

You need to keep in mind that we can't boost anything digitally. Hence when applying additive correction, the overall levels need to be decreased to get the needed headroom. As in - if some frequency is too quiet, we turn the rest down so it matches. The idea is that you should be able to compensate with extra analog gain.
  
 If you lack the analog gain for compensation, I'd recommend either experimenting to see if your music has content in frequency ranges where additive correction is applied or tweaking the dry/wet knob. Digital clipping sounds nasty, so I'd go with drying the correction blend to the point where you get enough loudness.


----------



## pervysage

I wonder if a headphone like the Focal Utopia will ever be on your guy's radar for a calibration file?


----------



## RudeWolf

Only if folks are willing to send theirs in. Too much of a risk to buy a batch and then try selling them. Sadly, that's the case with most hi-end cans.


----------



## Yoga

rudewolf said:


> Only if folks are willing to send theirs in. Too much of a risk to buy a batch and then try selling them. Sadly, that's the case with most hi-end cans.


 

 If I buy the Utopia I may send them in (from the UK) depending on the turn-around time.


----------



## BIG POPPA

pervysage said:


> Is it recommended to use the 'Avoid Clipping' feature? (toggle it on)?



Um depends, are you pushing the amp really hard? Then maybe. Personally I disregard it. Know my rig pretty well. If you are a noob then yeah. Protect the gear from the user.... lol


----------



## fjrabon

big poppa said:


> Um depends, are you pushing the amp really hard? Then maybe. Personally I disregard it. Know my rig pretty well. If you are a noob then yeah. Protect the gear from the user.... lol


 

 that's not the point of the prevent clipping setting.  Prevent clipping is there to prevent ***digital*** clipping prior to it ever getting to your rig.  The digital signal clipping can't damage your rig because it maxes out at 0.  It has nothing to do with being a noob and knowing your gear.  Also, about the only case you WOULDNT want to use prevent clipping is if you were pushing your amp hard, as prevent clipping will cause your amp to be pushed harder.
  
 Prevent clipping has nothing to do with anything except the compensation curve applied and the levels of your music files at the frequencies that sonarworks compensates.  You might not need to use prevent clipping if the music you are listening to doesn't have much energy in the frequencies Sonarworks is adjusting.  However, if your music does have significant energy where Sonarworks is adding, you need to use prevent clipping or the resulting DSP altered signal will absolutely have digital clipping, which sounds awful.  
  
 This points to one "issue" with sonarworks, it does increase the demand on your amplifier.  If at some point sonarworks is, for example, adding 9dB to 60Hz, then if your music has a lot of 60Hz, you will need to cut 9dB from the entire signal to avoid digital clipping.  to then get your music back up to "original" volume level, your amp will require 8 times more power (every 3dB increase requires twice as much power).  So, let's say you only needed 50mW from your amp before applying sonarworks, if sonarworks has a peak of 9dB adjustment, your amp will now need 400mW.  
  
 The other mild issue of sonraworks is that if your amp and DAC aren't the blackest background, because you have to run the amp at a higher level, it will introduce noise into your system, because your amp and DACs noise will be louder because the source signal is lower and the noise in the system is amplified more, relative to the signal.  
  
 Now, if you have a good system, with adequate headroom, and a low signal to noise ratio, this shouldn't be a problem.  But, yes, sonarworks will punish a poor amp with little headroom and lots of noise.  THere's no reason to not use clipping protection other than your amp and/or DAC isn't good enough to deal with the increased demands of power and signal to noise ratio, and like Rudolfs says, the better solution in that case is to turn down the "wetness" knob, so that Sonarworks isn't applying as aggressive of a compensation curve.  The answer ***isn't*** to risk digital clipping.  You can constantly watch the output levels, yes, and see if they ever go red.  But, the nature of the system is that if the frequencies that are being most compensated ever hit their maximum level in the source file, unless you used the "prevent clipping" recommended setting or ***more*** you will get clipping.  The only thing that would allow you to use less clipping prevention is if your source files don't have that much in the frequencies sonarworks is calibrating.


----------



## BIG POPPA

@fjrabon you just confused a ton of peeps. I get your point. Try not to get that winded. With tubes it is a safety net. Yes I am over simplifying


----------



## phoenixdogfan

That's one of the reason's why I run my IFI IDSD Micro in Turbo mode when running The AB0000 correction curve with my HD800's. BTW, no issues whatsoever with clipping, digital or otherwise.


----------



## fjrabon

big poppa said:


> @fjrabon
> you just confused a ton of peeps. I get your point. Try not to get that winded. With tubes it is a safety net. Yes I am over simplifying




How is it a safety net? Your tubes don't care if there's digital distortion or not. To them, signal is signal. I don't think anybody seems particularly confused. I think saying "only use clipping protection if you're pushing your amp" like you did is confusing since that's exactly backwards.


----------



## phoenixdogfan

For RudeWolf:
  
 I've been looking over my control panel and I've noticed that SW has the ability to enable your EQ'd phones to simulate the sonic profile of other phones.  Only thing is, it's limited to only four phones: Beats Studio, Sennheiser HD 650,  AKG 712, and Grado GS1000's.
  
 SW undoubtedly has the sonic profiles of dozens of headphones and could, in all probability, convincingly simulate the sound of every one of them--especially if the Sonarworks user was in the possession of an extremely capable phone that you've already published the EQ profile of. 
  
 I think it might be very interesting for your audiophile clientele to be able to dial up the sound of the Audeze LCD 2's, for example, on their HD 800's or the Oppo PM 3's on their Beyerdynamic T1's.  I realize this would be a premium feature that not everyone would be interested in, but research by Sean Olive seems to point to the conclusion that if one headphone's FR is precisely matched to another, it will be sonically indistinguishable from the phone it's matched to. I have a pair of ultra premium phones, and I think this feature would add a lot of value to your product, and I know I would pay extra for it.  So have you ever explored the expansion of your list of simulated components?


----------



## MattTCG

Can someone chime in with impressions on Sonarworks with the pm-3?
  
 thanks!


----------



## fjrabon

phoenixdogfan said:


> research by Sean Olive seems to point to the conclusion that if one headphone's FR is precisely matched to another, it will be sonically indistinguishable from the phone it's matched to.


 
  
 I do agree with you that it would be cool if you had more options in the simulate menu, for sure.  
  
 However, one thing sonarworks has pointed out to me is that frequency response isn't everything, or for me personally, even the primary thing.  For example, when I have my HD800 and my SRH840 both 100% wet on sonarworks, they sound very different, although they should at that point have basically the same exact frequency response.  Yes, they sound more similar than without sonarworks. But they are still really quite easily noticeably different.  The differences in transient response, transparency and soundstage are immediately recognizable.  And just so that it isn't open vs. closed, I've heard the HD650 through sonarworks, and again, the HD800's superiority in speed, soundstage and detail are certainly there even after the frequency responses are matched, even if it's less obvious than between the SRH840.  
  
 I like the simulate as a cheap way to get flavors.  And I actually think if you have a HD800 it's cool because it allows you to have those different flavors while still keeping the technical superiority of the HD800.  Want a HD650's smooth sound, but hesitant to give up the HD800's soundstage and transparency?  Hit that simulate button and you got it.  Want that exciting color of the GS1000, but don't want its distortion in the bass?  you can have it.  Want to hear how crappy NS10s sound?  Just push that button dog.  
  
 (side note, it always amazes me that home consumers buy NS10s.  The whole point of NS10s is that they sound roughly like the most average consumer system, particularly an average car stereo, and thus allows producers and engineers to hear how the music will sound as most consumers listen to it)


----------



## castleofargh

phoenixdogfan said:


> For RudeWolf:
> 
> I've been looking over my control panel and I've noticed that SW has the ability to enable your EQ'd phones to simulate the sonic profile of other phones.  Only thing is, it's limited to only four phones: Beats Studio, Sennheiser HD 650,  AKG 712, and Grado GS1000's.
> 
> ...


 
 bold part:  that's really not what they intended to show or research. they tested with different headphones, and in other tests they went for one headphone EQed to different signatures, and people said what they preferred. at no moment did they have to try and tell headphones apart. if I've forgotten a paper where they mention it, and you're right, I'm sorry in advance, but it would surprise me if I had forgotten such an important point was proved.
  
 it might come very very close in several cases but the 2 headphones would already need to have exemplary specs, not get to audible distortion levels after the EQ is applied, and they also must have controlled enough resonant frequencies because else simply applying EQ isn't guaranteed to be able to deal with it.
 I'm fairly confident that EQ can improve about all the headphones ever made, but mimicking other headphones is another matter. the results will really depend on the 2 headphones picked and the frequency range we're trying to replicate.
  


big poppa said:


> @fjrabon you just confused a ton of peeps. I get your point. Try not to get that winded. With tubes it is a safety net. Yes I am over simplifying


 

 he really didn't IMO. tube amps won't hard clip themselves contrary to SS amps, so the clipping will occur but won't sound remotely as bad. it's still clipping and it's still not a good idea. but more important, that's only dealing with clipping of the amp. this has little to do with digital clipping.
 to prevent clipping you can lower the digital gain at a value to make sure nothing will ever reach 0db or above(going crazy low would reduce the dynamic so not an ideal choice). or you can use a limiter, that will do nothing when all is good and digital headroom is big, but will compress the top to avoid or reduce the amount of clipping and attenuate the damage done to the signal. just letting things clip without a care because it doesn't sound too bad on a tube amp is your choice of course, but let's not pretend that it's the better choice.


----------



## RudeWolf

phoenixdogfan said:


> [...] So have you ever explored the expansion of your list of simulated components?


 
  
 Sort of. We could go all out and simulate every headphone we've measured, but so far it's limited to choices interesting for engineers who do mix double checking.
  
  
  


fjrabon said:


> [...] (side note, it always amazes me that home consumers buy NS10s.  The whole point of NS10s is that they sound roughly like the most average consumer system, particularly an average car stereo, and thus allows producers and engineers to hear how the music will sound as most consumers listen to it)


 
  
 Initially the NS-10 was chosen because it's a limited bandwidth sealed speaker. You get a very decent impulse response and the lack of low end means that it won't introduce masking in critical mid-frequencies. It was common practice to tweak the tweeters, because stock they sounded unbearably bright.
  
 Because some knowledgeable engineers used the NS-10's, a myth was created that they're some magic device which right away tells you if your mixes suck. As they say - if it sounds good on the NS-10, then it sounds good anywhere. What's funny - this has been extended to headphones as well, so if they're unbearably bright, then surely they must magically make mixing mistakes more apparent.


----------



## Yoga

rudewolf said:


> ...


 
  
 As much as I adore this plugin (and constantly—deservedly—big it up on this forum), *for the love of all things holy, please add an auto makeup gain when using clipping.*
  
 Incredibly simple to do, and would make using this *effortless* in a production environment. As it stands, it's an absolute workflow pain having to gain match different audio sources and apps in various scenarios.

 System wide is A) unnecessary and B) not possible when using a DAW.
  
 I'm constantly having to compensate the gain manually in Ableton also. Sonarworks is never without a companion gain utility.
  
 A fundamental bit of functionality in this day and age. Adding a simple auto makeup gain would _perfect_ this plugin and completely optimise (remove!) the workflow required to use it.
  
 Peace!


----------



## DivineCurrent

fjrabon said:


> I do agree with you that it would be cool if you had more options in the simulate menu, for sure.
> 
> However, one thing sonarworks has pointed out to me is that frequency response isn't everything, or for me personally, even the primary thing.  For example, when I have my HD800 and my SRH840 both 100% wet on sonarworks, they sound very different, although they should at that point have basically the same exact frequency response.  Yes, they sound more similar than without sonarworks. But they are still really quite easily noticeably different.  The differences in transient response, transparency and soundstage are immediately recognizable.  And just so that it isn't open vs. closed, I've heard the HD650 through sonarworks, and again, the HD800's superiority in speed, soundstage and detail are certainly there even after the frequency responses are matched, even if it's less obvious than between the SRH840.


 
 I have the same experience with my HD650 and DT880 using Sonarworks; they have a very similar frequency response, but the DT880 still has a hazy treble texture.
  
 However, the main reason, I believe, they sound different is because I purchased a pre-calibrated pair of HD650s from Sonarworks, which gives you the most accurate calibration within +/- 1 dB, instead of +/- 3 dB due to production variation. If I had also gotten the individually calibrated pair of DT880s from them, I'm almost positive the frequency response would be so similar, they would be nearly indistinguishable. The main differences like you said, would most likely be soundstage, imaging, and limitations of the drivers themselves (ringing, decay, harmonic distortion). You may not think 3 dB of variation makes a difference, but it really does, especially in the mids and treble. If there is anyone here who has gotten 2 or more individual calibrations done for their headphones, please chime in. Or @RudeWolf if you can confirm if I am correct in assuming this.
  
 I also definitely notice a difference in the low end bass distortion with my HD650s compared to the DT880s, as the DT880 have a little less of it and therefore sound tighter. So, distortion plays a big role too.


----------



## fjrabon

achelgeson said:


> I'm almost positive the frequency response would be so similar, they would be nearly indistinguishable.


 
 I agreed with everything else you wrote, but just not this.  At all.  There are too many other easily audible aspects to a headphone's sound to say "nearly indistinguishable" or even close.  Now, for mixing purposes, the ways in which they would then differ aren't all that important.  Which was the original purpose of SonarWorks anyway, so people could get consistent mixes on different gear.  While two different headphones both individually calibrated would have, functionally, the same frequency response, they wouldn't, for example, have the same impulse response.  Impulse response is something people can very readily hear, even though they often mistakenly attribute it to frequency response.  For whatever reason, people on here like to attribute a quick decay with a sharp response to "being bright."  It's like head-fiers must have everything converted into terms of frequency response, even for things that have nothing to do with frequency response.  Same for how the distortion breaks down within a given amount of THD.  Sonarworks won't do anything directly about the fact that a HD800s has more 2nd harmonic distortion than the HD800, relative to the 3rd and 4th harmonics.  For whatever reason head-fiers always talk about a headphone with more distortion in the 4th harmonic as though it had elevated treble, and more distortion in the 2nd harmonic as if it had more bass.  I get that is how they're often perceived, but understanding the difference is important, because then you understand how SonarWorks won't address most of the differences between the HD800 and HD800s, because it doesn't address differences in how the distortion profiles.  Note here that I'm not even talking about *amount* of distortion (measured as THD) but rather what harmonics that distortion goes into within a given amount of THD.
  
 For one more example, every moderately decent amp ever made has the same ***frequency response*** to within a tenth of a decibel.  Yet, I think we all agree, people can pretty readily discern different amps.  There's much more to it than frequency response, and even with the same frequency response, different headphones are often nowhere close to "nearly indistinguishable"
  
 As far as i know, nobody who has done research has ever claimed that (the research you cited earlier certainly doesn't).
  
 The distortion you're noticing in the HD650 vs the DT880 has more to do with the fact that the HD650 has to have its bass boosted more, and thus there is greater distortion after SonarWorks, it's not because the HD650 has more distorted bass to begin with.  SonarWorks can put fairly significant demands on a headphone if you get aggressive with the wet mix and the headphone isn't a great technical performer.  
  
 (I get that some parts of the above were fairly technically dense, and most people can just ignore it, but unfortunately there is no way around that if we are talking about the ability of one transducer to mimic another SOLELY via EQ).


----------



## RudeWolf

@fjrabon makes a really good point. Tonal correction can't address everything about what makes headphones sound like they do. But it addresses the most audible and currently worst performing aspect of headphones. We have successfully done phase correction for headphones and might implement it further down the road, but the funny thing is the effect wasn't something we'd readily call "a better sound". Hence more research and so on...
  
 Same goes for harmonic distortion; it can introduce psychoacoustic effects like "more bass", "richer mids", "more resolution". I know many of you are aware that there are some rogue calibration profiles floating around for HD800/650/600 with no-limits correction. There's a reason why these are not officially supported and bundled with the plug-in. First of all - they require a heroic amount of analog gain for compensation. Secondly - calibration of such magnitude at low frequencies will introduce large amounts of THD. I'm fairly positive that most of the reports that these curves give more bass are from people who have actually heard 20Hz being supplemented by a lot of 40Hz and 60Hz rumble.
  
 There is also a bright side to tonal correction from THD perspective. Any subtractive correction will reduce THD for the respective region. Resonant FR peaks usually are accompanied by harmonics and by reducing incoming signal, we also reduce the crud.
  
 Hence - we can improve many if not all headphones, but we can't turn everything into an HD800 with HD650 tonal profile.


----------



## 514077

I'd love to try this now that I have Windows 7.  I already blew my non-functional trial on XP.  Having trouble buying the download, can't figure out why.
 How can this be fixed?  And as a Canadian, do I use the world or US site?
 Thanks


----------



## MattTCG

Okay, I've got a weird issue with SW. For the past 2-3 days I'm getting some pops/clicks every few seconds ONLY when using Sonarworks. Using musicbee or any other player the noise is gone. I use SW with jriver and I've never had a single problem. 
  
 Any suggestions?


----------



## LajostheHun

> For one more example, every moderately decent amp ever made has the same ***frequency response*** to within a tenth of a decibel. Yet, I think we all agree, people can pretty readily discern different amps.



Must have missed the empirical data[not anecdotes] on that. Can you provide it?
Having said that amps can "react" differently to different loads, but that's not intentional it's more of a" side effect" and it's audibility is still extremely debatable even subjectively.


----------



## Yoga

matttcg said:


> Okay, I've got a weird issue with SW. For the past 2-3 days I'm getting some pops/clicks every few seconds ONLY when using Sonarworks. Using musicbee or any other player the noise is gone. I use SW with jriver and I've never had a single problem.
> 
> Any suggestions?


 

 1) Are you running any CPU intensive apps?
  
 2) Under Advanced, make sure Filter Phase Type is set to Linear.


----------



## fjrabon

matttcg said:


> Okay, I've got a weird issue with SW. For the past 2-3 days I'm getting some pops/clicks every few seconds ONLY when using Sonarworks. Using musicbee or any other player the noise is gone. I use SW with jriver and I've never had a single problem.
> 
> Any suggestions?




That sounds like hitting a wall with processor? Have you monitored your processor load while it's running? Sonarworks is a pretty intensive processor program. I get that sometimes if I have a lot of stuff going on and I'm running 32/192 files through sonarworks with CanOpener and photoshop and iMessage (love the functionality but it's an absurd resource hog) and excel and etc you get the picture. Then I open up system monitor and see I'm occasionally hitting a wall with the processor.


----------



## MattTCG

Cpu usage when full dsd running plus anti virus scan, plus several programs never gets beyond 50%:


----------



## fjrabon

matttcg said:


> Cpu usage when full dsd running plus anti virus scan, plus several programs never gets beyond 50%:


 

 hmm, yeah, no idea then.  Really photoshop is the big one for me that can sometimes set my system over the edge if I'm running sonarworks at the same time as I'm processing a medium format hi-res dng file.  As powerful of a program as photoshop is, it's a stupidly absurd resource hog.  While they are class leaders, adobe's solution to every problem is "well, throw more processor and memory usage at the problem"  But yeah, if you aren't getting that bogged down, not sure what else might be causing it, as that's the only time I've noticed the issue you are mentioning.


----------



## Yoga

It doesn't take a full CPU load to cause the odd pop and click, it can happen with lighter CPU loading.
  
 I've not used DSD with SWR3 so cannot comment on performance on this machine. 
  
@RudeWolf ?


----------



## phoenixdogfan

Biggest reason why I bought an i7 machine with an HQ suffix on the processor.  Just got tired of Schiit like latency and clicks and pops when using Sonarworks and OOYH.


----------



## castleofargh

if we're not talking about clipping, then the most likely problem will have to do with the buffer size of whatever is hosting the plugin, and of course the choice of filter that will directly impact latency and CPU usage. that is true for any EQ or convolution system where we can pick the type of filter.


----------



## MattTCG

castleofargh said:


> if we're not talking about clipping, then the most likely problem will have to do with the buffer size of whatever is hosting the plugin, and of course the choice of filter that will directly impact latency and CPU usage. that is true for any EQ or convolution system where we can pick the type of filter.


 
  
 I'll increase the buffer and report back with results. Thanks for the suggestion, regardless.


----------



## RudeWolf

Regarding crackles and pops, nothing really has changed in software DSP engine lately, so I'd rather look at the VST hosting solution. Increase buffer size and see what happens.
  
 I know that the existing hosts aren't exactly perfect so we're currently developing a dedicated system-wide calibration app. Initially it will be more pro-oriented, but I'm pushing for a listener friendly solution for you guys. Is there anything you'd really like to see added feature wise?


----------



## MattTCG

@RudeWolf ...the buffer adjustment seems to have done the trick. Many thanks!!


----------



## Dulalala

@RudeWolf Do you possibly have an ETA on when the HD800S calibration might be available?


----------



## RudeWolf

Initially we had a few pairs measured and the consensus was they're not too much different from the HD800. Then we got a pair which was significantly different. We need at least two extra pairs in for measurement, so we can be sure what's what.


----------



## fjrabon

rudewolf said:


> Regarding crackles and pops, nothing really has changed in software DSP engine lately, so I'd rather look at the VST hosting solution. Increase buffer size and see what happens.
> 
> I know that the existing hosts aren't exactly perfect so we're currently developing a dedicated system-wide calibration app. Initially it will be more pro-oriented, but I'm pushing for a listener friendly solution for you guys. Is there anything you'd really like to see added feature wise?




I love audiohijack, so if you guys could create more or less an improved version of that, with your own takes, aesthetics and features, that would be awesome. 

My must haves: 
1) ability to treat different source programs differently in the chain (is route iTunes one place, safari another place and system sounds another place)
2) ability to control the flow of plug ins. I need to be able to precisely say that sonarworks goes first, then mid-side, then CanOpener, etc
3) ability to have multiple "outputs" as I run two different DACs as our simultaneously and sometimes a recorder as a third out. 
4) a full suite of basic plug ins, like meters, channel pans, basic EQ, etc 
5) one thing that would be nice that I don't currently have/can't find is a precise latency creator. Why would I ever want to CREATE latency? Well, I run a subpac in my system sometimes and I don't want any EQ applied to it. So, my options are thus: 1) run to the DAC that feeds subpac straight from the player, run to the DAC feeding HD800 from sonarworks in linear mode, just deal with the differences in latency between the two outputs (not good at all) 2) run to subpac's DAC straight from iTunes, run to HD800's DAC from sonarworks using minimum phase mode. (Less than ideal, I prefer linear phase, but this works better than option 1). 3) run the after sonarwork's linear phase adjustment feed to another minimum phase EQ that essentially undoes Sonarworks EQ to the subpac's DAC and run the linear phase from sonarworks straight to my HD800's DAC. (Less than ideal, but it's what I've gotten best results with). With a "latency creator" plug in that just simply added a specified amount of latency I could run the signal straight from iTunes to that, read out the after sonarworks linear phase latency, type that in to the latency creator program and have everything perfectly synced up between subpac and HD800, while still being able to use linear phase mode and not needing extraneous EQs thrown in anywhere. 

You guys made any head way on a crossfeed program? I know you talked about it at the very beginning of sonarworks but hadn't heard anything since. I adore goodhertz CanOpener, but would certainly be interested in anything you guys might put out as well.


----------



## Yoga

rudewolf said:


> I know that the existing hosts aren't exactly perfect so we're currently developing a dedicated system-wide calibration app. Initially it will be more pro-oriented, but I'm pushing for a listener friendly solution for you guys. Is there anything you'd really like to see added feature wise?


 
  
*Auto makeup gain for the plugin first please.*
  
 Such a fundamental piece of functionality compared to the rest of SWR3. It's a nonsensical omission.
  
 Regarding a system wide application, Audio Hijack have nailed it (and it only costs $49). That's the bar you need to at least equal.
  
 Using Audio Hijack as a base requirement (multiple plugins, meters, flow control), point 1 of fjrabon's requests is especially useful; multiple instantiated routes.


----------



## edwardsean

I also presently use sonarworks with audio hijack, along with OOYH. A system wide solution is really interesting, especially if it could somehow resolve the multichannel issue. Right now when working with a 5.1 or 7.1 track the only way to use sonarworks is to put it at the end of the chain after down mixing, and it doesn't sound good. I'm still not entirely sure why. When engineering music, in general, gain-based effects like EQ do need to go before time-based effects like surround upmixing. So it does makes sense from that perspective.
  
 However, this is my first time using an EQ dedicated to shaping the spectrum of the monitoring transducer/speaker and not the music. Placing this kind of EQ at the end of the chain right before the headphones seems like it ought to work. Yet, the result sounds artificial and not as transparent as it does when putting SW at the start of the chain. 
  
 Can anyone shed some light on this? Am I just hearing it incorrectly? Also, I wonder if a system wide SW solution will be able to handle multichannel or if technical/processing requirements will be prohibitive.


----------



## fjrabon

edwardsean said:


> I also presently use sonarworks with audio hijack, along with OOYH. A system wide solution is really interesting, especially if it could somehow resolve the multichannel issue. Right now when working with a 5.1 or 7.1 track the only way to use sonarworks is to put it at the end of the chain after down mixing, and it doesn't sound good. I'm still not entirely sure why. When engineering music, in general, gain-based effects like EQ do need to go before time-based effects like surround upmixing. So it does makes sense from that perspective.
> 
> However, this is my first time using an EQ dedicated to shaping the spectrum of the monitoring transducer/speaker and not the music. Placing this kind of EQ at the end of the chain right before the headphones seems like it ought to work. Yet, the result sounds artificial and not as transparent as it does when putting SW at the start of the chain.
> 
> Can anyone shed some light on this? Am I just hearing it incorrectly? Also, I wonder if a system wide SW solution will be able to handle multichannel or if technical/processing requirements will be prohibitive.


 

 yeah, I've heard a pretty noticeable increase in quality when I put sonarworks at the beginning of the chain and canopener (which has time domain elements) towards the end.  I got there by pure trial and error, so it is good to know my trial and error, by ear, figuring has theory that backs it up.


----------



## RudeWolf

fjrabon said:


> I love audiohijack, so if you guys could create more or less an improved version of that, with your own takes, aesthetics and features, that would be awesome.
> 
> My must haves:
> 1) ability to treat different source programs differently in the chain (is route iTunes one place, safari another place and system sounds another place)
> ...


 
  
 What we're having in mind is less of an AudioHijack type of affair and more of a simple OS level audio enhancer utility. With the exception that you don't immediately disable it, like you do with most of bundled in laptop/mobo bloatware.
  
 Your case looks like where audio hijack is needed coupled with some plug-ins. I'm sure you could do most of these gymnastics with stock AudioHijack tools. As for crossfeed, we're firm believers that it needs to be tackled in a more complex fashion. Think - Waves NX complex, so we're focussing on perfecting the Reference software suite and leaving HRTF to our colleagues from other companies.
  
  


yoga said:


> *Auto makeup gain for the plugin first please.*
> 
> Such a fundamental piece of functionality compared to the rest of SWR3. It's a nonsensical omission.
> 
> ...


 
  
 By auto makeup gain you mean a compressor, right? You can't really "recover" lost gain without trading something for it and with compression you're losing resolution at peaks. It's a good idea for times when one is short on analog gain.


----------



## Yoga

rudewolf said:


> What we're having in mind is less of an AudioHijack type of affair and more of a simple OS level audio enhancer utility. With the exception that you don't immediately disable it, like you do with most of bundled in laptop/mobo bloatware.
> 
> By auto makeup gain you mean a compressor, right? You can't really "recover" lost gain by trading something for it and with compression you're losing resolution at peaks. It's a good idea for times when one is short on analog gain.


 
  
 Ah, system wide only. That's still very useful as it negates the need for DAW plugins and Audio Hijack in some instances (it would in my standard use case). Look forward to it!
  
 Actually it's much simpler than that. I may have my wires crossed here however - when you lower the volume via Avoid Clipping, I assume it does that *pre EQ*?


----------



## RudeWolf

yoga said:


> Actually it's much simpler than that. I may have my wires crossed here however - when you lower the volume via Avoid Clipping, I assume it does that *pre EQ*?


 
  
 Yup, we're dropping overall levels to make up for additive correction. Because you can't really add anything digitally.


----------



## Yoga

rudewolf said:


> Yup, we're dropping overall levels to make up for additive correction. Because you can't really add anything digitally.


 
  
 All good, ignore previous request :¬)
  
 Any ETA on the system wide app? I'd be happy to beta test.


----------



## cycle53x12

Just got the trial version of Sonarworks and have been comparing it to the non adjusted HD800's. All I can say is I never knew how much hot treble their was with the stock HD800. I know many talk about it, but I guess  I have always leaned toward treble versus Bass, but now I cannot stand the HD800 without the Sonarworks doing its magic. Will be purchasing this since I also have the HD600.
 I wish there was a profile for the Audeze LCD XC since those are noisy time headphones. I would love to hear them with this magic sauce!


----------



## lenroot77

cycle53x12 said:


> Just got the trial version of Sonarworks and have been comparing it to the non adjusted HD800's. All I can say is I never knew how much hot treble their was with the stock HD800. I know many talk about it, but I guess  I have always leaned toward treble versus Bass, but now I cannot stand the HD800 without the Sonarworks doing its magic. Will be purchasing this since I also have the HD600.
> I wish there was a profile for the Audeze LCD XC since those are noisy time headphones. I would love to hear them with this magic sauce!




We have another winner!!!


----------



## fjrabon

cycle53x12 said:


> Just got the trial version of Sonarworks and have been comparing it to the non adjusted HD800's. All I can say is I never knew how much hot treble their was with the stock HD800. I know many talk about it, but I guess  I have always leaned toward treble versus Bass, but now I cannot stand the HD800 without the Sonarworks doing its magic. Will be purchasing this since I also have the HD600.
> I wish there was a profile for the Audeze LCD XC since those are noisy time headphones. I would love to hear them with this magic sauce!


 

 I believe that they said they are working on getting the XC for the next round.


----------



## cycle53x12

That would be awesome if they get Audeze XC in there. I know it is not cheap to gather enough samples to make a meaningful profile. I love the XC but they are missing something next to the 800. Feeling satisfied.


----------



## Weatherlight

XC Yes!


----------



## castleofargh

rudewolf said:


> Initially we had a few pairs measured and the consensus was they're not too much different from the HD800. Then we got a pair which was significantly different. We need at least two extra pairs in for measurement, so we can be sure what's what.


 

 could i be that one pair was modded?  because I would expect Senn to have a relatively good consistency(unlike some hifiman or audeze). and the hd800 ( and S) are supposed to come with extra attention to driver matching and overall target response.


----------



## RudeWolf

castleofargh said:


> could i be that one pair was modded?  because I would expect Senn to have a relatively good consistency(unlike some hifiman or audeze). and the hd800 ( and S) are supposed to come with extra attention to driver matching and overall target response.


 
  
 I can't really say, usually folks explicitly tell us that we're receiving a pair modded headphones so we mark them as such. The first HD800S pair wasn't modded (are there actually any 800S mods?), but it did measure and sound differently.
  
 It's not unusual for a company to implement silent updates. Especially after first responses come rolling in for a new product or means of manufacturing change. What I don't like is keeping consumers in the dark. Everyone knows that there are white/dark driver HD650'ies. If they perform differently, issue a version change. It's usually good press. Unless you do it extremely rapidly, slash prices for the old version and alienate existing clients...
  
 Overall Sennheiser is one of the few companies out there with consistently good products and commendable driver matching.


----------



## MattTCG

rudewolf said:


> I can't really say, usually folks explicitly tell us that we're receiving a pair modded headphones so we mark them as such. The first HD800S pair wasn't modded (are there actually any 800S mods?), but it did measure and sound differently.
> 
> It's not unusual for a company to implement silent updates. Especially after first responses come rolling in for a new product or means of manufacturing change. What I don't like is keeping consumers in the dark. Everyone knows that there are white/dark driver HD650'ies. If they perform differently, issue a version change. It's usually good press. Unless you do it extremely rapidly, slash prices for the old version and alienate existing clients...
> 
> Overall Sennheiser is one of the few companies out there with consistently good products and commendable driver matching.


 
 I would be really surprised if it were product variation from Sennheiser. I been buying their products for the past 10 plus years. Each one has measured and sounds identical. I guess anything is possible though. 
  
 Some people still use rugliner mod with 800 S.


----------



## Zoom25

So far I've tested the HD 800 and KRK KNS 8400. Really good results. The HD 598 is next on my list. Now I wish there was a profile for my Denon AH-D2000.
  
 It's been a toss up between mixed and linear phase. Linear sounds more locked in and cleaner, but the sound can at times sound unnatural due to pre-ringing. The difference in the attack comes very well across on both headphones so far. This can mess with the overall punch that you know is supposed to be there. I think it's perhaps more noticeable on the HD 800 because of its inherent capabilities. I can't be the only one who has noticed this?
  
 Perhaps another mixed combo within Sonarworks to address this if possible? Good stuff still. I'll report back on the HD 598.


----------



## fjrabon

zoom25 said:


> So far I've tested the HD 800 and KRK KNS 8400. Really good results. The HD 598 is next on my list. Now I wish there was a profile for my Denon AH-D2000.
> 
> It's been a toss up between mixed and linear phase. Linear sounds more locked in and cleaner, but the sound can at times sound unnatural due to pre-ringing. The difference in the attack comes very well across on both headphones so far. This can mess with the overall punch that you know is supposed to be there. I think it's perhaps more noticeable on the HD 800 because of its inherent capabilities. I can't be the only one who has noticed this?
> 
> Perhaps another mixed combo within Sonarworks to address this if possible? Good stuff still. I'll report back on the HD 598.


 

 I've found that pre-ringing is more dependent on the amp.  Some amps it messes with, by sort of "pre-sucking" out quickly available current, so that the transient sounds softer.  But with better loaded current, it's less of an issue.


----------



## MWSVette

I hate to sound stupid but,
  
 I downloaded Sonarworks.  Now what.  How do I get the thing to run.  They are kind of light on instructions.  I there an executable file I am missing?


----------



## MattTCG

Which player do you have?


----------



## MWSVette

matttcg said:


> Which player do you have?


 
 Foobar and I use Spotify.


----------



## MattTCG

Copied from this thread....
  
 Okay, I got it to work with foobar2000. Here's what you need to do.
  
 Download and install the free trial of Sonarworks Reference 3 Headphone. (Or purchase it.)
  
 Download and install this VST adapter in foobar2000.
  
 Go to Components, VST plugins and add the Sonarworks plugin.
  
 Go to Playback, DSP Manager and activate the Sonarworks plugin. Then click Configure Selected.


----------



## MWSVette

matttcg said:


> Copied from this thread....
> 
> Okay, I got it to work with foobar2000. Here's what you need to do.
> 
> ...


 
 No luck but thanks for trying...


----------



## Zoom25

fjrabon said:


> I've found that pre-ringing is more dependent on the amp.  Some amps it messes with, by sort of "pre-sucking" out quickly available current, so that the transient sounds softer.  But with better loaded current, it's less of an issue.


 

 Maybe. I have tested and owned pretty crap stuff (Fiio, O2) out there and some serious high-end (Accuphase, EAR, Luxman, Naim, Bryston) stuff. My current headphone amplifier rig is somewhere in the middle. I'll be sure to revisit this if/when I audition more higher-end amplifiers and see if it gets resolved.


----------



## MickeyVee

Testing out Sonarworks trial and have listened for the past couple of days.  While I really like it, still undecided.  Will definitely spend more time with it.  I'm really not one for mods or EQ, have tried many ending up going back to stock with +2.5dB bass boost on the AMP but this is the most intriguing. No problem with a powerful enough amp (see my signature) and SW does exactly what I expect it to do.  
  
 Tried loading SW trial on my laptop also but says its already registered on another machine.  Guess the trial is limited to one licence.  There's a HeadFi meet in Toronto this Saturday and was hoping to demo it.


----------



## fjrabon

zoom25 said:


> Maybe. I have tested and owned pretty crap stuff (Fiio, O2) out there and some serious high-end (Accuphase, EAR, Luxman, Naim, Bryston) stuff. My current headphone amplifier rig is somewhere in the middle. I'll be sure to revisit this if/when I audition more higher-end amplifiers and see if it gets resolved.




It's not necessarily higher end stuff, as some throughly mid grade stuff has lots of current on demand, while some higher end stuff can have temporary drops in current. Also voltage feedback amps (most amps) can have this issue. My HiFiMan EF2C is better in mixed, but the TIII is better on linear. I guess just be open to switching things up dependent on gear. Linear mode is also maybe worse if your system is prone to intermodulation distortion.


----------



## fjrabon

After doing lots of back and forth on the phase settings with the SRH840 and HD800 (the two headphones I currently have with profiles), I tried this with several DACs and amps.  The DAC used seemed to matter very little, but for some settings the amp seemed to interact with the different phase settings differently.  That isn't to say I could hear no difference between the DACs, but simply that the DACs didn't seem to be sensitive to these phase settings changes.  The amps used were: ECP TorpedoIII, HiFiMan EF2C, Schiit Fulla, Grace m9XX, AudioQuest Dragonfly, AudioEngine D1, Schiit Lyr2, DIY Millett SSMH.  

 here are some takeaways:
  
 1) with the HD800, I find minimum phase to MURDER the imaging of upper midrange instruments, this was the case with all amps.  Bass transients on HD800 were crisp with all amps on minimum phase. Tonality with all amps seemed slightly "off" with HD800 and min phase.  Imaging depth was smeared with HD800 and min phase
 2) With HD800, mixed phase restored imaging accuracy to normal hyper accuracy that is characteristic to the headphone.  Some amps still struggled a bit with imaging accuracy, but that seems to be more a characteristic of those amps, as imaging accuracy was the same or better (!) with sonarworks mixed phase setting on all amps, compared to hitting the bypass switch.  m9XX and TorpedoIII were particularly superlative in imaging with HD800 and mixed phase.  Bass transients were just as crisp as with minimum phase, that is to say they were seemingly not impacted by SonarWorks on any of my amps.  Tonality was good, but seemingly just a tiny touch off compared to linear phase.  
 3) With HD800, I found linear phase to have the best imaging accuracy and soundstage on all amps.  This margin was large over minimum phase, but still even noticeable over mixed.  Bass transients were very noticeably smeared on some amps.  This effect was awful on the DIY millett and the dragonfly.  The effect was bad on the Fulla.  The effect was noticeable of the EF2C, though not terribly detracting, I likely wouldn't notice it without specifically listening for it.  The effect was only noticeable under very close listening with the m9XX, AudioEngine D1 and Lyr2.  I specifically put on Chesky test tracks with bass transients.  It wasn't really noticeable under normal listening conditions. The effect was slightly more noticeable when the drum had "shallow" reverb, as things got somewhat smeared together.   With TorpedoIII, I went back and forth on whether I could tell a difference, and which I preferred.  At times it felt that the bass transients were "softened" in a pleasing way with linear applied, at times the bass transients felt less crisp, most of the time I was certain I heard no difference.  
 4) With SRH840, I won't go into as much detail, but I will say that the trends from the HD800 mostly held as well, except there was a much smaller difference between linear and mixed phases, except in bass transients, where mixed was much better.  With SRH840, mixed was the easy victor overall, as it had equal imaging, equal soundstage, equal tonality, better bass definition than linear.  This held with all amps, but was most easily noticeable with the TIII, m9XX and Lyr2.  Oddly, the bass with minimum phase on the SRH840 actually felt very loose, which I still don't really understand, but that's what I heard.
  
 My take-away.  There seems to be very few usage scenarios in an audiophile scenario (where latency in and of itself is irrelevant, since there is no "live" reference event) where I would need to use minimum phase.  The extra processor power draw, worsened tonality and decreased imaging accuracy were big drawbacks to me.  Between mixed and linear, things become much more interesting, and hard to judge, especially with HD800.  With SRH840, I'd say just set it to mixed and don't worry about it.  With HD800, having an amp that has very high loaded current and doesn't use voltage feedback seems to lessen some of the negatives of linear.  The HD800 is able to fully communicate the benefit to soundstage that linear provides.  But on some bass heavy tracks, especially where reverb is applied to the bass transients, mixed may be worth using, especially with some amps.  Dependent on importance of bass transients vs soundstage and type of amp, I could certainly see different people choosing differently between mixed and linear.  I will probably mostly continue to use linear with HD800, because in the system I use it in, the bass transients aren't as much of an issue, and the increase in soundstage and imaging accuracy (even improved in those regards over not having sonarworks at all!!!) were definitely worth the trade-off.  
  
 My biggest surprises, and why I'm glad I spent this time: 
  
 1) SRH840 is definitely much better overall on mixed.  I had been using linear for it exclusively, as I had done most of my critical sonarworks listening with my HD800 big system, and assumed the lessons learned there applied to all headphones and amps evenly.  However, with the SRH840 and the system I use it in most often, mixed phase is clearly superior.  I actually wasn't as big of a fan of sonarworks with the SRH840, but now that has changed very much.  Realizing mixed was better for it has reawakened my love for this workhorse can.  I had dreaded those times I needed more isolation than the HD800 or even THX00 could give, because it meant going to IEMs or the SRH840.  Now I don't mind nearly as much needing to put this can on.
 2) I was very surprised that SonarWorks linear phase actually seemed to improve the imaging accuracy and 3-Dness of the soundstage for the HD800, even vs having sonarworks disabled.  I definitely expected the opposite.  Having heard this, I suspect this may be where the real improvement may lie in getting the HD800 individually calibrated.  Sennheiser's quality control seems to be so outstanding that the average adjustment seems to work great in terms of frequency response, but perhaps there are gains to be made in terms of the last little bit of driver and phase matching between channels to the soundstage?  I'm tempted to send my HD800 in now, but still very happy with the average profile.


----------



## Zoom25

fjrabon said:


> After doing lots of back and forth on the phase settings with the SRH840 and HD800 (the two headphones I currently have with profiles), I tried this with several DACs and amps.  The DAC used seemed to matter very little, but for some settings the amp seemed to interact with the different phase settings differently.  That isn't to say I could hear no difference between the DACs, but simply that the DACs didn't seem to be sensitive to these phase settings changes.  The amps used were: ECP TorpedoIII, HiFiMan EF2C, Schiit Fulla, Grace m9XX, AudioQuest Dragonfly, AudioEngine D1, Schiit Lyr2, DIY Millett SSMH.
> 
> here are some takeaways:
> 
> ...


 

 Looks like _mixed_ results for you as well. 
  
 http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111119363/3752258-8277793319-tumbl.gif


----------



## castleofargh

fjrabon said:


>


 


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!






> After doing lots of back and forth on the phase settings with the SRH840 and HD800 (the two headphones I currently have with profiles), I tried this with several DACs and amps.  The DAC used seemed to matter very little, but for some settings the amp seemed to interact with the different phase settings differently.  That isn't to say I could hear no difference between the DACs, but simply that the DACs didn't seem to be sensitive to these phase settings changes.  The amps used were: ECP TorpedoIII, HiFiMan EF2C, Schiit Fulla, Grace m9XX, AudioQuest Dragonfly, AudioEngine D1, Schiit Lyr2, DIY Millett SSMH.
> 
> here are some takeaways:
> 
> ...


 
  


  
  usually the type of filter has fairly minimal audible impact on EQ (IMO!!!!), but when left and right have different EQ(like say for a custom calibration of a pair of headphone), then you can really murder the imaging as you said. ^_^


----------



## fjrabon

castleofargh said:


> usually the type of filter has fairly minimal audible impact on EQ (IMO!!!!), but when left and right have different EQ(like say for a custom calibration of a pair of headphone), then you can really murder the imaging as you said. ^_^




Yeah, I was surprised by how much minimum phase impacted the imaging. I probably exaggerated the differences a bit, as I think is normal for A/B testing, but the effects were certainly noticeable.


----------



## Zoom25

HD 598 Impressions:
  
 - Definitely an improvement w/ Sonarworks as opposed to stock
 - Didn't bother with minimum phase and only compared linear/mixed
 - Linear had much better imaging as expected
 - Pre-ringing far less noticeable on linear this time (could be the headphone inherently or the EQ correction isn't as drastic as HD 800)
 - Punch adequate in linear phase and you forget about it after some time.
 - Way too many advantageous in linear this time around while the disadvantages came across very slightly.
  
 Overall preference: Linear (FINALLY!!!!)...by a margin.


----------



## Zoom25

*BREAKTHROUGH!? (Audirvana Plus Direct Mode ON -> OFF...OS SIERRA)*
  
 So after testing the HD 598 and getting great results with linear phase, I figured I would try the HD 800 again and see if I can learn to like the HD 800 on the linear phase. I hit play and within the first 20 seconds it was clear that this sounded way different and far better than any of the past experiences with Sonarworks. I was beyond shocked. I immediately stopped Audirvana Plus and check to see if I was still in linear mode. YUP!
  
I thought I was losing my mind how the sound could've changed so much overnight. Well, then I remembered that today I had upgraded my OS from El Capitan to Sierra earlier in the day. As a result when I first went in to try out the HD 598, I got an error message from Audirvana saying that I have to disable the 'Direct Mode.' So I did and figured 'that sucks.' Didn't pay attention when I tried the HD 598 as it was the first time I had tried it at all. Although, the difference between the Direct Mode ON/OFF became very clear when the HD 800 were re-plugged.
  
 Now, I'm getting a very good image and the mids are finally as I would hope them to be. Previously, the mids felt kind of crap in both Mixed and Direct. The mids after OS update feel very similar to my BDP-1 mids. Also, the transient problem and pre-ringing seem to have disappeared. Reaping all the benefits, with very little to no disadvantages. IT'S FINALLY ENJOYABLE ON ALL ACCOUNTS!
  
 I highly, highly recommend Audirvana Plus users to try Direct Mode OFF if they haven't already. For the first time, the thought of individual calibration has actually entered my mind. WOW!


----------



## fjrabon

zoom25 said:


> *BREAKTHROUGH!? (Audirvana Plus Direct Mode ON -> OFF...OS SIERRA)*
> 
> So after testing the HD 598 and getting great results with linear phase, I figured I would try the HD 800 again and see if I can learn to like the HD 800 on the linear phase. I hit play and within the first 20 seconds it was clear that this sounded way different and far better than any of the past experiences with Sonarworks. I was beyond shocked. I immediately stopped Audirvana Plus and check to see if I was still in linear mode. YUP!
> 
> ...




Good to see this. I was starting to doubt my own hearing, since I almost never heard any pre-ringing issues with HD800 and decent gear. I listened specifically to mono drum tracks with reverb and wasn't always sure which was which on most drum isolated tracks. With SRH840, I think the lack of driver control sometimes causes the pre-ringing to cause looseness, as they have a fairly mediocre impulse response. So I don't think I am so much hearing the pre-ringing directly on the SRH840 in linear mode, but I am hearing resultant intermodulation distortion that's caused by the pre-ringing, as the over-long impulse response that is characteristic of the headphone combines with pre-ringing for a not great combo. Mixed cleans this up on that headphone. Still not sure though why the bass is tighter in mixed than minimum phase.


----------



## Zoom25

fjrabon said:


> Good to see this. I was starting to doubt my own hearing, since I almost never heard any pre-ringing issues with HD800 and decent gear. I listened specifically to mono drum tracks with reverb and wasn't always sure which was which on most drum isolated tracks. With SRH840, I think the lack of driver control sometimes causes the pre-ringing to cause looseness, as they have a fairly mediocre impulse response. So I don't think I am so much hearing the pre-ringing directly on the SRH840 in linear mode, but I am hearing resultant intermodulation distortion that's caused by the pre-ringing, as the over-long impulse response that is characteristic of the headphone combines with pre-ringing for a not great combo. Mixed cleans this up on that headphone. Still not sure though why the bass is tighter in mixed than minimum phase.


 

 I guess we were both right all along. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Really happy to have this figured out. I also found that bass and overall sound gets tighter as one goes up from minimum to linear. I'm going to have to revisit Audirvana Plus' manual to see what else might be going on that I hadn't thought about.  So much BASS


----------



## Zoom25

Under the 'Audio Filter' Tab of Audirvana Plus, I clicked 'Advanced Parameters' to see what were the (default?) settings I was using. This is what it says. Sonarworks set to linear.
  

  
  
 I would like to hear from others or Sonarworks if they have any further tips.


----------



## Yoga

Glad you got it sorted! I was wondering why you were having such a bad experience. Enjoy!


----------



## johnjen

When I first started using the Ref-3 plugin I was fussing with the wet/dry ratio mixture along with the tone controls a bunch.
 This allowed me to play with other EQ and adjustments and figure a way to blend them all together.
  
 It took a while to dial it all in and when I was done the tone controls were back to flat and the wet/dry was at 100%.
  
 Now granted I'm on a Mac so the windows background adjustments are missing, but then again they're not needed either.
  
 And there is one additional intriguing aspect I have yet to explore while using Sonarworks.
 That being the custom EQ compensation they offer.
  
 And it seems to me that the one overlooked aspect of this tweak is that their results also match both channels (in terms of dB) thru the entire audible spectrum.
 Matched channel balance is one of the key 'ingredients' that can make for a magical musical experience.
  
 These are a couple of additional refinements that can deliver 'Better' and they are based on those sonic aspects you look for.
  
 JJ


----------



## Yoga

johnjen said:


> And it seems to me that the one overlooked aspect of this tweak is that their results also match both channels (in terms of dB) thru the entire audible spectrum.


 
  
 Is this documented anywhere?


----------



## fjrabon

yoga said:


> Is this documented anywhere?




I've definitely read this somewhere but can't remember where.


----------



## RudeWolf

Stereo calibration is only available, when you use custom calibration. Otherwise both channels get the same treatment.


----------



## MattTCG

^^ Can Sonarworks please open a U.S. center so that I can send in all my headphones for custom calibration? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Seriously though, is there a way to safely and economically ship 2-3 headphones to you guys? The cost of shipping is the only reason that I haven't done so.


----------



## Music Alchemist

@RudeWolf
  
I need help. I just purchased Sonarworks Reference 3 Headphone. I had a trial from a long time ago installed, which was overwritten. Now when I try to load a headphone profile in the software, I can't get anything. I have the old headphone profile files, but can't find the new ones. I'm trying to load the HD 800 profile.
  
I followed all the instructions here:
https://sonarworks.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/206112451-Headphone-calibration-files-are-missing-
  
Both methods did not work. The headphone calibration files did not download. Only the old files are in the Sonarworks Projects folder.
  
 Okay, I got it to work. I had already activated the license key via the main Sonarworks program, but had to do it again within the VST plugin in foobar2000.
  
 Is there a manual? I couldn't find one.
  
 How do I activate the No Limits curve for the HD 800? All I see is the normal one.


----------



## MattTCG

The no-limits curve has been discussed here a few times. In my opinion I wouldn't worry about it too much. It will give you about the exact same results as far as I can tell as the average curve.


----------



## RudeWolf

matttcg said:


> ^^ Can Sonarworks please open a U.S. center so that I can send in all my headphones for custom calibration?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Safely - yes. Safely and economically? Erm... if you're lucky? I'd recommend doing a group send, then you'd be able to get the price down.


----------



## fjrabon

music alchemist said:


> @RudeWolf
> 
> How do I activate the No Limits curve for the HD 800? All I see is the normal one.


 
 The "no-limits" curve is a non-officially sanctioned curve that some people made on their own, as far as I can tell.


----------



## MattTCG

I think that I could get @fjrabon to go in with me. Maybe a someone else I have in mind.


----------



## Music Alchemist

matttcg said:


> The no-limits curve has been discussed here a few times. In my opinion I wouldn't worry about it too much. It will give you about the exact same results as far as I can tell as the average curve.


 


fjrabon said:


> The "no-limits" curve is a non-officially sanctioned curve that some people made on their own, as far as I can tell.


 
  
 I've used the curve from this post, which seems to be about the same as Sonarworks...but I bought Sonarworks anyway just to be sure, and to see what its other features could do for the HD 800.
  
 Trying to get accurate tonal balance and impact (across the spectrum) with the HD 800 is driving me crazy. Sonarworks definitely improves it, but it's still nowhere near good enough for me. Being a life-long musician, I suppose you could say I'm spoiled.
  
 I'm so impressed by the technical capability of the HD 800 that I thought it would be worth it to explore the possibilities with equalization...but it has only yielded a moderate improvement.
  
 Even after spending days equalizing it (tracking down others' settings to use as starting points, doing it manually every which way, and using Sonarworks), I haven't been able to make it sound as neutral, transparent, and natural as my reference, the STAX SR-207. (And that's with no EQ at all for the latter.) I find this odd because the HD 800 doesn't measure _that_ differently from the 207. Obviously other factors are at play here.
  
 What's worse, it just feels dynamically dead, with almost no impact. This is true no matter how much I equalize it or what I drive it with. It's not due to lack of amp power or anything. Comparing mine from the Mojo and another member's HD 800 from the 430HAD and HDVD 800, there were no major differences. (And I do make sure to test with all the different types of music I can.) I suspect this is simply a physical limitation of the headphone in stock form. Apparently it can be heavily tweaked enough (ala what johnjen did to his) to reach Abyss-level impact. I am aware that physical modifications are required to address the high frequency resonance as well.
  
 ...But considering all my frustrating experiences, I'm leaning towards just returning it and trying the Focal Elear or perhaps yet another candidate. I'm willing to give up some technical performance in exchange for more life-like impact. As things are now, I more often reach for my Koss KTXPRO1 instead of the HD 800, since its overall tonal balance is truer to life and it has stronger impact...and that's just crazy, because that headphone only costs $10!


----------



## fjrabon

music alchemist said:


> I've used the curve from this post, which seems to be about the same as Sonarworks...but I bought Sonarworks anyway just to be sure, and to see what its other features could do for the HD 800.
> 
> Trying to get accurate tonal balance and impact (across the spectrum) with the HD 800 is driving me crazy. Sonarworks definitely improves it, but it's still nowhere near good enough for me. Being a life-long musician, I suppose you could say I'm spoiled.
> 
> ...


 

 based on what you've said your issues with the HD800 are, I doubt that you'd like the Elear any more.  You seem to be describing an Abyss or Utopia.  Which, yeah... Sorry.


----------



## Music Alchemist

fjrabon said:


> based on what you've said your issues with the HD800 are, I doubt that you'd like the Elear any more.  You seem to be describing an Abyss or Utopia.  Which, yeah... Sorry.


 
  
 Hmm. I've actually come across quite a few people who feel the Elear is nearly as good as the Utopia, and/or subjectively more enjoyable. And nearly all the info I could find relating to impact and dynamics said that the Elear has _more_ of it than the Utopia. The Elear measures much more closely to the HD 650 as well, which I can say from experience is a lot easier to live with than the HD 800. (Despite the HD 800 being technically more impressive in some ways.)


----------



## fjrabon

music alchemist said:


> Hmm. I've actually come across quite a few people who feel the Elear is nearly as good as the Utopia, and/or subjectively more enjoyable. And nearly all the info I could find relating to impact and dynamics said that the Elear has _more_ of it than the Utopia. The Elear measures much more closely to the HD 650 as well, which I can say from experience is a lot easier to live with than the HD 800. (Despite the HD 800 being technically more impressive in some ways.)


 

 The elear just has a lot of treble roll off and the bass decay is long-ish.  Utopia manages to have impact in the bass while not needing to "pull tricks" to get there like a long decay and 2nd harmonic distortion.  The elear to me didn't seem like a meaningful upgrade over the HD650.  The Utopia seemed likely the best headphone I've ever heard straight out of the box, standing toe to toe with the abyss in many regards, but without needing the Abyss's massive amplifier requirements.


----------



## Music Alchemist

fjrabon said:


> The elear just has a lot of treble roll off and the bass decay is long-ish.  Utopia manages to have impact in the bass while not needing to "pull tricks" to get there like a long decay and 2nd harmonic distortion.  The elear to me didn't seem like a meaningful upgrade over the HD650.  The Utopia seemed likely the best headphone I've ever heard straight out of the box, standing toe to toe with the abyss in many regards, but without needing the Abyss's massive amplifier requirements.


 
  
 Thanks for your impressions. Since this is getting a little off-topic, I'll take this to PM.


----------



## johnjen

yoga said:


> Is this documented anywhere?


 
 Yes but I don't remember where I read it and it was buried inside and pointed at but not emphasized.
 But when I run the no limits curve, both channels are now given their own separate curve.
  
 And by the way I asked Sonarworks to generate these 'exceptions' to their normal way of providing their compensation curves.
  
 I asked them to not limit the averaged curves they generated for the 800 and 650.
 And they then generated them and passed them along to me.
  
 I have since sent them to a few others who wish to further pursue this series of experiments.
 There are a few (mostly here in the Seattle area) who are using this form of EQ along with a few other mutually interactive tweaks and they have attained results very similar to mine.
  
 And some of the systems are fairly inexpensive, like ≈ $1250 for the entire audio system s/w and all, where Sonarworks is a key element in being able to achieve the results obtained.
  
 Sonarworks deserves a big thanks from all of us who explore the extreme bottom end of the 800's and the 650's and now the 700's capabilities for doing this.
 I don't know of any one else who would be so accommodating.
  
 And I too would LOVE to be able to send a 'shipment' of headphones to get measured but the cost is simply prohibitive, no matter which way I came at it (individually or multiple boxes in one bigger box).
 It was also very expensive for the insurance.
  
 It's too bad to, because getting both channels matched could be a major step up in some systems, especially if your system has extended bass capability.
  
 JJ


----------



## Yoga

Interesting, thanks. I'd be interested in hearing these HW/SW chains you speak of.


----------



## Deftone

iv been trying to use the free trial but all i get is this 
  

  
 there is no way to get in to the software even though i have activated it with the trial key.
  
 tried both online and offline activation and multiple restarts.


----------



## johnjen

yoga said:


> Interesting, thanks. I'd be interested in hearing these HW/SW chains you speak of.


 
 I have been fussing with my system for a while now and besides going after the basic setup of the gear and s/w, I have been experimenting with a great deal of 'other' approaches to, as I put it, remove 'Choke Points' from the operation of the system.
  
 But the initial tweaks are found in the CookBook thread, specifically these 2 that deal with EQ and it's consequences.
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/781268/the-diyrs-cookbook/210#post_12300653
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/781268/the-diyrs-cookbook/345#post_12489775
  
 But there are many other tweaks that are discussed throughout that thread as well.
 And they all have made a contribution, (or I wouldn't have posted them) and I consider them as part of the HW/SW chains as well.
 Albeit some of these other tweaks are of a more subtle nature.
 What it being a DIY'rs CookBook thread and all…
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 JJ


----------



## Berdine

Is it only in my setup, or does the Sonarworks plugin take ~5x as much CPU when displaying the UI as when it's hidden?  In more detail, I host Sonarworks in Audirvana (with no other plugins).   When Audirvana is set to allow real-time plugin settings changes, then the plugin UI stays visible during playback.  If I disable the real-time setting changes option, the UI is not available during playback.  I have noticed that the CPU usage is much higher in the first mode.  Perhaps I'm misdiagnosing, but it would be nice to have an option to turn off e.g. the meters etc. to reduce the CPU usage.


----------



## cycle53x12

fjrabon said:


> The elear just has a lot of treble roll off and the bass decay is long-ish.  Utopia manages to have impact in the bass while not needing to "pull tricks" to get there like a long decay and 2nd harmonic distortion.  The elear to me didn't seem like a meaningful upgrade over the HD650.  The Utopia seemed likely the best headphone I've ever heard straight out of the box, standing toe to toe with the abyss in many regards, but without needing the Abyss's massive amplifier requirements.


 

 So how does the HD800 (with Sonarworks) compare to the Utopia in your opinion? I would love to hear these but kinda outside my budget right now (so are the Abyss).
 Thanks


----------



## sanjeewasam

I installed a trial and was testing with my HD800. My set up is Synology 213J NAS-> windows10 (toshiba Z20t- 571M core M, 4 GB RAM, 128SSD) running foobar 2000-> Violectric V850 Dac balanced to-> Violectric V281 balanced mode-> HD800 (with Tyll's Anaxilus Mod)
  
 The sound is good. I recently had the pleasure of having Hifiman HE6 hard wired heavily modded (7 mods in total) with Grills removed. HD800 with SW3 sound little similar HE6 though not there yet. I think I need to set V281 to +6 gain to compensate volume loss (my V850 DAC is at +24db setting with 12-3 clock volume setting). I also have AKG K812 which I am planning to test with SW3
  
 My questions
 a) Despite Sonaworks website has modest hardware requirement when playing DSD 128 (about 250mb per song) Toshiba Z20t is almost full on and does not respond sometimes. Is there anyway to improve performance of SW3?. I also have Gen 1 Surface pro 3 core I5 +4GB 64SSD as a spare and I can give it a go with that too. Toshiba does not have internal fan as I know so less prone to USB jitter.
 b) I cam give it a go with Jriver V21 and would like to use UNPN software such as BubbleUPNS in my phone to control the music rather than meddle with the laptop/tablet connected to DAC. Any suggestions? ( I am missing my Auralic Aries Mini Hifi Digital Music Streamer/Dac With Jay's Audio LPS). Foorbar 2000 as a streamer does not work properly when controlled via BubbleUPNP 
 c) I also listen to google music (eastern music collection limited in TIDAL) and TIDAL. Any easy way to access all in one app within windows 10 environment?
  
 BTW I am planning to give it a go for VB Audio Cable and Pedalboard 2 with SW3 and probably that may help with c) above


----------



## sanjeewasam

rudewolf said:


> Hey guys!
> 
> We just made vids on how to set up system wide calibration on both of the major platforms!
> 
> ...




  
  
 I need some help with this. I followed the instructions but something is not right. I have foorbar 2000 running in windows10 machine and within foorbar SW3 works perfectly. As I have tidal and google music and am interested in getting SW3 working system wide. Installation went OK for VB Audio and Pedalboard 2 and SW3. What I need is configuration info for Pedalboard 2.
  
 I have Vio850 DAC and it require USB driver to work. When I connect my PC to V850 DAC it automatically use the driver, In foorbar I pay Device ASIO: Vio ASIO driver.
  
 When I Select VB Audio Cable as the default "Playback devise" it would not push the output to V850 DAC and start playing music via my laptop built in speaker 
 When I select Vio V850 as the default playback devise and try to configure Pedalbboard
 Audio devise type: Directsound
 Output: VioV850
 Input: VB-Audio....
 SW3 does not seem to work. It shows up but the signal does not pass through it. I get the music via my DAC but with no SW3 working (I need to reduce the volume and I know how HD800 sound normally and via SW3)
  
 I also tried
 Audio devise type: Windows Audio
 Output: VioV850
 Input: VB-Audio....
  
 Same result
  
 Can someone please explain the setting needed to play via external DAC such as Vio850/ Chord Mojo (these dacs require manufacturer's provided driver in windows environment). 
  
  The video quoted above does not address the issue and with that setting music does not flow through external DAC connected via USB


----------



## DivineCurrent

sanjeewasam said:


> I need some help with this. I followed the instructions but something is not right. I have foorbar 2000 running in windows10 machine and within foorbar SW3 works perfectly. As I have tidal and google music and am interested in getting SW3 working system wide. Installation went OK for VB Audio and Pedalboard 2 and SW3. What I need is configuration info for Pedalboard 2.
> 
> I have Vio850 DAC and it require USB driver to work. When I connect my PC to V850 DAC it automatically use the driver, In foorbar I pay Device ASIO: Vio ASIO driver.
> 
> ...


 
 First off, make sure the VB Cable output is set as default device under your input devices. Make sure all the devices are set to the same sample rate  (I use 24 bit, 96000 Hz). Also, perhpas try disabling enhancements for each audio device, there may be something that is preventing it from outputting there. Here is what my settings look like:
  

 And also make sure your lines are connected correctly:


----------



## sanjeewasam

achelgeson said:


> First off, make sure the VB Cable output is set as default device under your input devices. Make sure all the devices are set to the same sample rate  (I use 24 bit, 96000 Hz). Also, perhpas try disabling enhancements for each audio device, there may be something that is preventing it from outputting there. Here is what my settings look like:
> 
> 
> And also make sure your lines are connected correctly:


 
 Can your please clarify
 1. What should I use in the player as output  - say foorbar 2000 or JRiver. I normally use ASIO driver of the DAC. After installation I can see now 3 additional entries under foorbar2000 output a) DS: Cable input (VB-Audio virtual cable) b) WASAPI (event): Cable input (VB-Audio virtual cable) c) WASAPI (push): Cable input (VB-Audio virtual cable)
 2) In Windows system "Playback devices" what should I select a) Cable input (VB-Audio virtual cable) b) DAC driver as a devise c) PC sound built in inboard 
 3) In Windows system "Recording devices"- do I need to select anything special. I can see  an entry for Cable output (VB-Audio virtual cable)
 4) in Pedalboard 2 Audio settings what should be
 a) Audio devise type - windows audio/ directsound or ASIO
 b) Output
 c) Input 
  
 I tested various combinations but cannot get it working also with Chord Mojo or Vio V850. I set everything to 96000 and connected audio inputs to SWR3 and from SWR3 to Audio outputs


----------



## sanjeewasam

sanjeewasam said:


> Can your please clarify
> 1. What should I use in the player as output  - say foorbar 2000 or JRiver. I normally use ASIO driver of the DAC. After installation I can see now 3 additional entries under foorbar2000 output a) DS: Cable input (VB-Audio virtual cable) b) WASAPI (event): Cable input (VB-Audio virtual cable) c) WASAPI (push): Cable input (VB-Audio virtual cable)
> 2) In Windows system "Playback devices" what should I select a) Cable input (VB-Audio virtual cable) b) DAC driver as a devise c) PC sound built in inboard
> 3) In Windows system "Recording devices"- do I need to select anything special. I can see  an entry for Cable output (VB-Audio virtual cable)
> ...


 
  
  Thanks *achelgeson*
  
 Ok I figured out. Updating here for others may benifit
  
 1. in Media player as output  - say foorbar 2000 where I normally use Chord ASIO as output ->now I have to select WASAPI (event): Cable input (VB-Audio virtual cable) and set its resolution 24bit 96Khz in foobar
 2) In Windows system "Playback devices" select Cable input (VB-Audio virtual cable) and via properties make sure it is set to 24bit 96kHz 
 3) In Windows system "Recording devices"- No changes required - leave whatever that was there as is 
 4) in In Windows system "Playback devices" select the your DAC from the listing and click properties and set the resolution to 24bit 96kHz as otherwise in 5) b it will not allow to select your DAC driver as output   
 5) in Pedalboard 2: Options -> Audio settings
   a) Audio devise type - windows audio
   b) Output - Digital output (My dac USB driver)
   c) Input - Cable output (VB-Audio virtual cable)
   d) sample rate 96khz which is the max
  
 I did some checks with above settings as I was not sure what to expect (24bit 96khz set above). Played DSD 256 files via Synolofy NAS-> foorbar in Toshiba Z20t win10-> SW4-> Chord Mojo-> HD800 and those did not play smoothly- not sure if I need to use a more powerful PC (each track 500mb+), I checked DSD 128 (200mb+ per track) and played ok. Also checked 24bit 192khz files and they worked ok
  
 So the question is do we need to limit resolution to 24bit 96kz (well I know you will not hear any difference) but questioning anyway


----------



## sanjeewasam

In TIDAL windows app need to select Streaming-> Sound output as-> Cable input (VB-Audio virtual cable)
 Google music played via web browser -> no changes required for any settings as it would plat via settings already done


----------



## sanjeewasam

Just testing AKG K812 out of my Mojo and SW3. Just great. I know I will be buying this. I just ordered He560 but not sure with HD800 now sounding more like HE6 with SW3 I should even get any more headphones!!!
  
 Great work guys!!!!
  
 I am so pissed off with Elears and just hoping SW3 will provide settings for it soon to to fix its poor mids and highs
  
 Cheers
 Sanjeewa


----------



## MattTCG

Curious if anyone has tried the pm-3 with SW and what the results were.


----------



## RudeWolf

The PM-3's are my main everyday drivers at the office.
  

  
 Check that sweet, sweet channel matching. Overall I'd rate the PM-3's as the best sounding closed backs I've ever heard. Highs are a bit wonky, but other than that hard to fault these 'phones.


----------



## MattTCG

Wow, thanks for that. I'd have to say that I'm impressed and will likely give these a shot.


----------



## cycle53x12

I did the trial period. I thought I would wait when it ran out to buy it, but only lasted like 1 day before I had to buy it, it makes my HD800's sing! Waiting for other headphones to be added to the list of models they have a base line setup for. Pretty sure you will love it!


----------



## RudeWolf

Check this out if you happen to like Faith No More - http://faithnomore.sonarworks.com/full-story-experience/


----------



## Yviena

Just wondering but was the hd800 profile done with the dust cover on or off?


----------



## cycle53x12

yviena said:


> Just wondering but was the hd800 profile done with the dust cover on or off?


 

 Cant imagine SonarWorks would profile the HD800 with any modifications.


----------



## phoenixdogfan

If you want to have that you will probably need to send it to them.


----------



## RudeWolf

The profile was made for unmodded HD800, hence mods will incur a deviation from the reference curve.


----------



## DonPor

Hey!

 I'm new to this forum, but just wanted to let you know something.

 I just got my  *Hifiman He400s* (with Focus Pads) back from individual calibration.

 First impression:
 Damn, why didn't I do this earlier?
  
  

 The Hifimans took a great advantage of the calibration. 
 I really liked them before, but even more now.

 I'm really happy.
 Thanks Sonarworks.


----------



## Cruxiaer

rudewolf said:


> The profile was made for unmodded HD800, hence mods will incur a deviation from the reference curve.


 
 Will you guys be adding a profile for HD800S?


----------



## sanjeewasam

This is my third time in this forum. In both previous occasions I did register for free trial and had a go at it. Still I am undecided and have questions
 a) I use a dedicated streamer and does not want to use tablet or laptop. In this case SW3 does not work in that context.
 b) HD800 and AKG812 with SW3 change a bit and sound much like FOCAL ELEAR  but then is that  what is intended by the manufacturer in making this HP?.
 c) if I have applied any mods does that means I need to send the PH for individual calibration as SW is only having standard profile? what if I decided that mod is not longer required or find a better mod- Say HE6 with grill removal lead to bigger sound stage which cannot be achieved by SW3. Also if I decide to use balanced cable or change the cable or modify ear pads (say swap difference ear pads)
  
 My issue is I like HD800, Focal ELear and K812 and X2 for some characteristics. For instance I love AKG K812 with female vocals paired with Chord Mojo for treble sparkles (Violectric V850/V281 does not allow highs to run wild so I like K812 with Chord Mojo better as that is what I want to hear). Also HD800 for classical Asian Music is great. SW3 kill all that but give me a politically correct outcome which is more like Elear which I have. I know I am may be listening to something not reference or artificial but at the end I am hobbyist and I listen for pleasure so I do not need be correct as long as it is what I like. 
  
 Question is SW3 calibrate HP to be similar to Reference speakers (that is my understanding). However HD800 nor K812 does sound same with calibration. Further what reference system and who decide what is the best reference what is the process involved to say now it is reference type?.
  
 The fact that I cannot make changes to what SW3 is providing as output (only limited modification available) to overide some aspects that I do not want to change is a no go for me.  In that context isn't a simple EQ in foorbar do the trick?
  
 I am also interested in hearing if most of the people using or recommending SW3 is actually sound engineers or Hobbyist?
  
 Apologise in advance if my use of working /questioning cause unpleasantness to any  but I am genuinely questioning


----------



## MattTCG

a) Some people have had success with a system wide application of EQ but I have not. It is intended to work as a plugin with an individual player only. 
  
 b) Yes, I believe that what you are hearing is a better frequency response that in some ways will resemble the Elear depending on the headphone in question. The bass on the hd800 makes a day and night improvement after SW and may sound more in line with the bass response on the Elear. To me, it's even better. 
  
 c) You will typically get a better result if you do NOT apply mods when using SW. The EQ profile was created using the hd800 in it's stock form.


----------



## Yoga

System wide trial is available:
  
 http://us9.campaign-archive2.com/?u=aa7648c555d53d896887bac90&id=abb644e7ca&e=a71a46af4e
  
 $70 for first 5 days, then up to $99. Will try it in a bit.


----------



## MattTCG

yoga said:


> System wide trial is available:
> 
> http://us9.campaign-archive2.com/?u=aa7648c555d53d896887bac90&id=abb644e7ca&e=a71a46af4e
> 
> $70 for first 5 days, then up to $99. Will try it in a bit.


 
  
 Wow, thanks for the heads up! Installing now...


----------



## lenroot77

yoga said:


> System wide trial is available:
> 
> http://us9.campaign-archive2.com/?u=aa7648c555d53d896887bac90&id=abb644e7ca&e=a71a46af4e
> 
> $70 for first 5 days, then up to $99. Will try it in a bit.




Let us know how this works!
Is this different than using pedalboard and the A-B cable?


----------



## sanjeewasam

yoga said:


> System wide trial is available:
> 
> http://us9.campaign-archive2.com/?u=aa7648c555d53d896887bac90&id=abb644e7ca&e=a71a46af4e
> 
> $70 for first 5 days, then up to $99. Will try it in a bit.


 

 Is this only for Mac users? I downloaded it but not for windows


----------



## sanjeewasam

matttcg said:


> a) Some people have had success with a system wide application of EQ but I have not. It is intended to work as a plugin with an individual player only.
> 
> b) Yes, I believe that what you are hearing is a better frequency response that in some ways will resemble the Elear depending on the headphone in question. The bass on the hd800 makes a day and night improvement after SW and may sound more in line with the bass response on the Elear. To me, it's even better.
> 
> c) You will typically get a better result if you do NOT apply mods when using SW. The EQ profile was created using the hd800 in it's stock form.


 

 Thanks for the reply. But I am still not clear
  
 if we have many headphones because we like them for some aspects/songs getting everything to sound reference (or called it politically right for sound engineers) does not make sense. If so why should headphone makers makee headphones with different flavours and people keep many headphones? 
  
 Of course where you do not like the SW3 profile for some songs you could just turn it off and then on when you need it. Just hope one day they add functionality to change the outcome like with a small EQ within SW


----------



## Yoga

I can't get the trail to activate. Emailed support.

 I'm not sure why this is a better solution than Audio Hijack. That only costs $49 and is _packed_ with additional (useful) functionality.


----------



## groovyd

I also tried getting the systemwide to activate with no luck.  They expect you to be a rocket scientist to install and properly license this thing, is a complete mess in my opinion.  apparently there is no way to 'activate' the plugin licenses for headphone or speakers from within the systemwide which makes no sense since it is to replace having to duct tape together the audio chain using tools like Audio Hijack.  Activating the license using AudioHijack still is not recognized by system wide.
  
 Also from their post they are saying with system-wide latency is an issue.  Well if someone is going to pay $100+ for this thing on top of the other plugin license fees they charge there better be no issues.
  
 Do I need to purchase a real license and not some demo 21 day thing?


----------



## RudeWolf

Currently Systemwide is for existing clients only. Hence the e-mail was sent to them. I'd wait a week or two before we release the Win version and then jump on it.


----------



## groovyd

rudewolf said:


> Currently Systemwide is for existing clients only. Hence the e-mail was sent to them. I'd wait a week or two before we release the Win version and then jump on it.


 

 I have a Mac.  If I wait a week I lose the discount.  I just purchased your whole kit including mic and calibration bundle for $360 so this thing better work.  Where do I purchase the system-wide for mac license at the introductory rate?


----------



## edwardsean

Hi. I've been trying out systemwide, and it worked for me without a hitch. The only thing is that I use both Mac and Windows (Bootcamp) on the same laptop. Will I have to purchase two licenses to get it on both platforms?


----------



## groovyd

It will not work without a fully purchased license.  I finally got the mac systemwide working but it does not work with the demo or 21 day license.  They really need to say that somewhere to prevent a ton of confusion.  Also they need a way to activate the plugin license from within system-wide.  I had to activate them from Audio Hijack which is not intuitive at all.  It would also help if they simplified their licensing and just had one license for everything that 'just worked'.


----------



## groovyd

Strike that it activated the plugins but still won't activate system-wide itself...
  
 This is with fully paid plugins license and the 'trial' system-wide license code as given here (http://us9.campaign-archive2.com/?u=aa7648c555d53d896887bac90&id=abb644e7ca&e=4c1473edef).
  

  

  
 'New Update Available' takes you to the plugins download webpage which are already installed and activated and of the same version.


----------



## Yoga

groovyd said:


> Strike that it activated the plugins but still won't activate system-wide itself...
> 
> This is with fully paid plugins license and the 'trial' system-wide license code as given here (http://us9.campaign-archive2.com/?u=aa7648c555d53d896887bac90&id=abb644e7ca&e=4c1473edef).
> 
> ...


 

 This is the exact same issue I have.

 Support mentioned a reboot and manual kext load but the problem still remains.


----------



## groovyd

yeah, their licensing system got some issues.  no one is going to know how to do a manual kext load and they shouldn't have to for these prices.


----------



## groovyd

put in a support tix but no response.  hoping to get this evaluated before the discounted purchase ends. also i don't see the link anywhere on their store to purchase systemwide even though they said it would go for sale yesterday, Monday.


----------



## drwlf

When a new software is being released, there's often delays and hiccups.
 I wouldn't sweat over it.
 The deals also come and go.


----------



## gikigill

rudewolf said:


> Currently Systemwide is for existing clients only. Hence the e-mail was sent to them. I'd wait a week or two before we release the Win version and then jump on it.




Existing client here, no email to me.


----------



## Yoga

gikigill said:


> Existing client here, no email to me.


 

 Same, I had no email. Saw the link elsewhere.


----------



## rudra

couldn't find any info on System wide software on their web page. I also didn't get any email. I use the reference 3 plugin.


----------



## RudeWolf

Currently it's for Mac only, so only Mac clients got the news. Windows version should be ready in a few weeks. Currently we're still licking some minor bugs and will inform everyone once we start selling. Naturally the 5 day deal will only start counting down once the store opens.


----------



## Thenewguy007

So I want to try Sonarworks.
I downloaded it & after what felt like 10 installed it finished, but what now?

How do I use it with foobar, there is no instruction or read me file? The installation installed in several different folders, what am I supposed to pick to use in foobar?


----------



## Thenewguy007

matttcg said:


> Copied from this thread....
> 
> Okay, I got it to work with foobar2000. Here's what you need to do.
> 
> ...




I been following these directions.
I installed the VST adapter from here http://www.yohng.com/software/foobarvst.html & set it to active.

Next I copy the .dill file in program_files/VSTplugins folder to the components folder in foobar & restart foobar.
It doesn't show up in the components menu or DPS Manager menu, noting that say's "reference" or "sonarworks".

When I tried selecting the install option from the components menu in foobar & select the Program_files/VSTplugins folder, the .dill file does not appear & it just shows an empty folder.
I tried both the x64 & x86 folders of VSTplugins & nothing appears there for me to install.


What am I doing wrong?
Speaking of which, how do I uninstall all the programs sonarworks installed? I counted something like 6 different installs.


----------



## 514077

thenewguy007 said:


> So I want to try Sonarworks.
> I downloaded it & after what felt like 10 installed it finished, but what now?
> 
> How do I use it with foobar, there is no instruction or read me file? The installation installed in several different folders, what am I supposed to pick to use in foobar?


 
 Hellll!  I blew my trial trying to get it to work with FB2K with no results.  I'm not buying the program until it works for me.  Will have to get my son to download it for me.


----------



## groovyd

drwlf said:


> When a new software is being released, there's often delays and hiccups.
> I wouldn't sweat over it.
> The deals also come and go.


 

 yeah my issue is i bought the headphone and speaker plugins and such only because i wanted to demo the systemwide as it is something i have been needing for a long time and because the demo wouldn't work using a trial license for the plugins.  so here I am fully paid and can't ultimately demo the application i was initially most interested in.  the discount is only incidental but still i don't even see an order form for it even though they said they would discount it for these 5 days that are almost over.  i wouldn't mind purchasing it even at the discount with the idea being they will eventually get it working but i have gotten no response regarding it from any of the emails or support tix i provided.
  
 another coincidence is with my MC21 I couldn't even use the plugins alone since they left the last release of MC21 with a bug that doesn't let you actually add plugins.  so i guess that 'feature' which was advertised part of MC21 is now a reason i have to upgrade to MC22 after the initial upgrade discount expired.  it does seem since one of the features i had expected to have purchased with MC21 and later found out actually doesn't work there should either be a patch for MC21 given to fix the plugin issue or they should allow late upgrades at the discounted rate.
  
 edited - just read the followup post regarding the bugs they are working on and that it still is not up for sale.  this is certainly good to hear and rests my mind a bit.


----------



## groovyd

Finally we are getting somewhere here... thanks Sonarworks support for a functional systemwide license key.  Now the only remaining issue is there is no way to set a 'flat' calibration profile for when you want to apply the other features such as bass and tilt adjustments without a calibration profile.  Would seem appropriate for them to provide a 'Flat' profile file or allow the same 'No File Selected' option that the regular plugin allows.
  
 The reason I need this is because I do not yet have my speakers calibrated (the kit is still in the mail) and so I have no way to listen to my speakers with a flat calibration without selecting some headphone as a profile which doesn't make sense.
  
 I am also curious exactly what is the difference between 'headphone' and the 'speaker' plugins.  Aren't they doing the exact same thing?  Kinda odd to have 2 license and configurations for them.


----------



## Thenewguy007

When I try dragging & dropping the Reference.dll

I get this message:
_Could not load component "Reference3_x64.dll": Unsupported format or corrupted file_

Do i have to somehow use the trial key code or open some separate Sonarworks program to get the .dll file to be supported?

The only deviation from the other instructions I did was download the VST plugin from http://www.yohng.com/software/foobarvst.html
Instead from https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,84947.0.html as clicking on the link to download it doesn't nothing.


----------



## bosiemoncrieff

Does AudioHijack require sound flower as pedalboard did? I used PB but it made numerous cracks and pops. Also, how do you call up the sonar works plugin in AH3?


----------



## Yoga

bosiemoncrieff said:


> Does AudioHijack require sound flower as pedalboard did? I used PB but it made numerous cracks and pops. Also, how do you call up the sonar works plugin in AH3?


 

 No AH works by itself. A far more elegant and efficient solution than Soundflower + that awful Pedalboard.

 Plugins are listed inthe 'Library'. Right hand side after you create a new scene/route/oath. Just drag and drop.


----------



## bosiemoncrieff

How do I fix this error? I'm contacting their support now.


----------



## phoenixdogfan

You need the X86 version.


----------



## 514077

thenewguy007 said:


> When I try dragging & dropping the Reference.dll
> 
> I get this message:
> _Could not load component "Reference3_x64.dll": Unsupported format or corrupted file_
> ...


 
 If you're refering to the VST pluggin, click install in the foobar pane and go to where the zip file is and hit enter.  No need to unzip the .dll and copy.  As for the rest, I'm lost.
 HTH


----------



## bosiemoncrieff

phoenixdogfan said:


> You need the X86 version.


 

 of what exactly? Sonarworks? I clicked the mac download. on the webpage. the activation code is just a string of digits and hyphens, and is what gave me the error message.


----------



## groovyd

-- copied from LCD-X thread because it should also be useful here --
  
 Everything is working fine for me regarding systemwide and all but it wasn't without considerable troubles to get the licenses activated etc. Ultimately you need to purchase real full licenses for the plugins first since the systemwide demo doesn't support plugin 21 day demo licenses.  once you get a real plugins license key then you need to activate those via something like JRiver or AudioHijack or whatever VST plugin loader by loading the plugin and waiting a minute or so until it actually starts to render from being an empty panel (maybe click around a bit and drag the window a bit until it finally displays) and enter the real license code to activate the plugins.  Then once you got real plugin license activated do a reboot and go back to systemwide and it should show green checkboxes for those license.  Then you need to enter a new different systemwide demo 5 day license which I was given myself via a support email to Sonarworks.  The advertised 5 day license on their website or wherever doesn't work.  Once you got a fixed license then finally it should all just work.
  
 The LCD-X calibration file is in the plugin folder '~/Sonarworks Profiles' under your home folder on a mac.  This folder should have a bunch of .swhp (SonarWorks Headphone Profile) files including the LCD-X.  It should open the correct folder when you go to select a profile in the upper right drop down.  If you don't see the X in the list of profiles it means you do not have the latest plugin updates.  In that case go to their website and download the latest plugins.  There is no 'flat' calibration profile included with the plugin so until you set something you get nothing.


----------



## gregzDk

Tried it with stock HD800, and it had a good effect, though I was not convinced if much better than carefully chosen EQ parameters.


----------



## Netherwind

I try to load the VST plugin into Fidelify and it can't register it.
  
 Guess I'll just have to wait for Systemwide for Windows to try this.


----------



## groovyd

I found a bug...
  
 If you switch profiles via the tray selection on mac (without opening systemwide fully) it will switch back to indicating the previous profile if you click away and then re-click on the tray.  It appears though to not change the profile just shows the wrong one selected. So basically you select a profile and it switches to it but the next time you click on the tray icon it shows the previous profile selected even though it isn't.  
  
 Small bug but it's there and I am sure they will fix it quickly.  I am fully ready for purchase


----------



## 514077

groovyd said:


> -- copied from LCD-X thread because it should also be useful here --
> 
> Everything is working fine for me regarding systemwide and all but it wasn't without considerable troubles to get the licenses activated etc. Ultimately you need to purchase real full licenses for the plugins first since the systemwide demo doesn't support plugin 21 day demo licenses.  once you get a real plugins license key then you need to activate those via something like JRiver or AudioHijack or whatever VST plugin loader by loading the plugin and waiting a minute or so until it actually starts to render from being an empty panel (maybe click around a bit and drag the window a bit until it finally displays) and enter the real license code to activate the plugins.  Then once you got real plugin license activated do a reboot and go back to systemwide and it should show green checkboxes for those license.  Then you need to enter a new different systemwide demo 5 day license which I was given myself via a support email to Sonarworks.  The advertised 5 day license on their website or wherever doesn't work.  Once you got a fixed license then finally it should all just work.
> 
> The LCD-X calibration file is in the plugin folder '~/Sonarworks Profiles' under your home folder on a mac.  This folder should have a bunch of .swhp (SonarWorks Headphone Profile) files including the LCD-X.  It should open the correct folder when you go to select a profile in the upper right drop down.  If you don't see the X in the list of profiles it means you do not have the latest plugin updates.  In that case go to their website and download the latest plugins.  There is no 'flat' calibration profile included with the plugin so until you set something you get nothing.


 
 Thanks, saw it on the X thread.  I think I'll just wait for system wide and see if they simplify the configuration of the whole mess for windows.  If I see positive responses on here, I'll buy.  I love my Xs and always found them able to scale up with improvements, as good as they are.


----------



## Ifalna

Just tried this for my DT-880.
  
 Couldn't get it to work with foobar, but using the effect in Audacity did the trick.
 Put the VST .dll's into the "plugins" folder and let Audacity search for new plugins on startup.
  
  
  
 Have to say that *RudeWolf* was quite correct when he stated that a pleasant listening experience was not their target.
  
 I used the track "A dark Knight" from Hans Zimmers score as a guinea-pig and the results were:
  
 Holy friggin basshead Batman!
  
 It felt as if s/o implanted a subwoofer into my brain and turned the gain to "overkill".
 Fun for around 5 minutes, after that: headache inducing.
  
 It's scary to hear how much bass would be needed for a "flat EQ" frequency response.
  
 Needless to say, that for my ears, details were lost due to them being overwhelmed.
  
 Anyhow, just wanted to share my experience.
  
 Fair day to you all.
  
 PS: One positive: I was pretty impressed with the amount of bass my cans can generate w/o distortion.


----------



## gikigill

Here's a guide from a post on page 3 on this thread:

Okay, I got it to work with foobar2000. Here's what you need to do.



Download and install the free trial of Sonarworks Reference 3 Headphone. (Or purchase it.)



Download and install the VST adapter in foobar2000.



Go to Components, VST plugins and add the Sonarworks plugin.



Go to Playback, DSP Manager and activate the Sonarworks plugin. Then click Configure Selected.


----------



## whatisit

netherwind said:


> I try to load the VST plugin into Fidelify and it can't register it.
> 
> Guess I'll just have to wait for Systemwide for Windows to try this.


 
  
 No need to wait.  (You'll probably be waiting a long time for this... I haven't seen anything for 6 months, and haven't seen any indication of a release on their website).
  
 Sonarworks actually had a webpage that explained how to do this without it's unreleased systemwide solution.  For whatever reason, it seems to have disappeared.  But it's still cached in Google at: https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Uz1JuYtYGsoJ:https://sonarworks.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/207678555--Windows-I-d-like-to-use-the-plugin-on-any-audio-source-and-not-just-in-my-DAW-+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
  
 I'll copy and paste the instructions here, just in case that caching disappears (I hope this isn't against the rules here..?):
  


> Either for mixing purposes or just plain music listening, at some point you probably wished for a system-wide solution to listen to your music through our Reference 3 plug-in. While we’re still working on a system-wide solution ourselves, here’s a quick guide to a solution for Windows that works for free right now! For this you will need to download two applications that serve the purpose of hosting our plug-in and then routing it to your system's sound output.
> 
> *Step 1:*
> Download and install the latest build VB-audio cable from here: http://vb-audio.pagesperso-orange.fr/Cable/
> ...


 
  
  
 Two notes.
  
 First, you can use VSTHost from http://www.hermannseib.com/english/vsthost.htm instead of PedalBoard2.  VSTHost seems to have a bit more functionality, but they are very similar.
  
 Second, in either VSTHost or PedalBoard2, you should select the output as whatever device you previously had as your default output device, not necessarily your soundcard.  If you have a DAC, for example, you will probably want that to be the output device.  (e.g. mine output is JDS Labs Element DAC)
  
  
 You'll need to leave VSTHost or PedalBoard2 window open forever basically, because neither minimizes to the tray.  Furthermore, you'll need to open it manually (or via a script on startup) everytime you reboot the computer.  *EDIT:* Pedalboard2 _does_ have a tray ability.  Under Options->Misc Settings, "Display tray icon (not OSX)"!  Turns outs VSTHost also has an option that minimizes to tray - however, unlike Pedalboard2, it has not option to start the program minimized.
  
 Lastly, just to be perfectly clear - this setup will run the plugin on ANYthing going to your speakers or headphones, not just one particular application (such as foobar2000, Audacity, Fidelify, etc.).  It also applies to music playing through your web browser, for example.


----------



## bosiemoncrieff

Finally got Hijack and Sonarworks working. Pedalboard is a worthless piece of schiit. Pops and sputters all over your sound. Can't overstate how crippled and terrible a solution it is. Stock HD800 is preferable.


----------



## Thenewguy007

gikigill said:


> Here's a guide from a post on page 3 on this thread:
> 
> Okay, I got it to work with foobar2000. Here's what you need to do.
> 
> ...





Foobar doesn't recognize the Sonar plugin. The folder is empty when I select to install it, even though the .dll file is there, if I physically open the folder.
When I try drag & dropping the .dll file it gives me this message "Could not load component "Reference3_x64.dll"


Can someone tell me how I can do a complete uninstall of Sonarworks & all the files it installed? The install process nearly took 15 minutes. I don't want any unneeded files on PC & want to completely delete everything it put on my PC.

Of course there is no documentation of how to get rid of everything from Sonarworks.


----------



## rudra

with out installing the VST wrapper you won't be able to you the plugins in the Foobar.
  
 1) Install VST Wrapper in foobar
  

  
 2) add the VST wrapper in the active dsp

  
 3) add the VstPlugins folder.


----------



## castleofargh

foobar is a 32bit application anyway as was already suggested. he tried to load the 64bit dll.
  


bosiemoncrieff said:


> Finally got Hijack and Sonarworks working. Pedalboard is a worthless piece of schiit. Pops and sputters all over your sound. Can't overstate how crippled and terrible a solution it is. Stock HD800 is preferable.


 
  if the sound is wrong(pops clicks cut...), the buffer setting is almost always wrong. and pedalboard can't really guess the ideal value because you can put a great many vsts in it doing from fast and simple tasks, to very advanced DSPs with filters needing a much bigger buffer. and the same thing can happen to any virtual cable used to link the player to pedalboard.
 plus the possible mess from picking different sample rate resolutions in the signal path.
 in a word, it will work fine for it's limited intended use, when set properly.


----------



## whatisit

bosiemoncrieff said:


> Finally got Hijack and Sonarworks working. Pedalboard is a worthless piece of schiit. Pops and sputters all over your sound. Can't overstate how crippled and terrible a solution it is. Stock HD800 is preferable.


 
  
 Hijack is OSX, correct?  I can't speak to PedalBoard2 on OSX, but I haven't had any issues with it in Windows.  I had absolutely no pops, sputters, or anything qualifying as what you described in Windows 10. Regardless, I was just quoting a page from Sonarworks directly and wasn't suggesting PedalBoard2 was the best solution.  The post was mainly for @Netherwind or other people who were in a Windows environment.  Unfortunately, Hijack isn't a solution for Windows.


----------



## groovyd

Purchased the full systemwide license but 2 days later and I still have not received the license code.  posted to support with no answer still.  what makes this a bad thing is my demo license is expiring today and even though i have fully paid for it i can no longer use it


----------



## whatisit

Can't you just use a different email address to get another trial license?  It lasts for 22 days, which should tide you over until getting it worked out with support.


----------



## groovyd

​
 they got me squared away with the license finally and my calibration kit with mic arrived to calibrate my speakers.  setup was easy and their software is very simple to use but it would not succeed in calibrating my mini maggies on my desk.  they are 3' apart and the listening chair is 3' from them but it's auto-location detection found them to be 4' apart and the chair to be 12' away.  when it came time to do the wandering calibration measurements it got stuck on the first one telling me the mic wasn't in the position it wanted it at on the listening chair.  it also didn't tell me which way i would have to move to make it happy and no matter where i put the mic in the room it was satisfied.  so without it being able to correlate these positions it cannot calibrate. put in more support tickets but this could be a costly issue if it cannot calibrate my speakers.
  
 i am guessing maggies are not throwing out a typical wave they are expecting or the backwave reflections are confusing the calibration.  since these are an integral part of the room sound with maggies i am not sure how to make this work without turning these into box speakers which i clearly don't want.  also a ton of room treatments just to get it to locate my speakers correctly doesn't seem like a good plan since i could spend a fortune on modifying the place with no guarantee the tool ever calibrates it. also guessing the bass panel under the desk is throwing it off, but again that is integral to the sound.  is there a way to calibrate to a system with a separate sub?
  
 here you see the position estimates it provides.  fine tuning their estimates only lets me reduce the distance to 10' which is still way off.


----------



## rudra

may I suggest a mic stand and point the mic towards the ceiling. That is how I have calibrated speakers and subwoofer using REW and Audyssey


----------



## groovyd

rudra said:


> may I suggest a mic stand and point the mic towards the ceiling. That is how I have calibrated speakers and subwoofer using REW and Audyssey


 

 tried that too, no go.  thing is they suggest just holding the mic and walking around with it. they also explicitly recommend putting the mic parallel to the ground and pointed right at the middle. but no the stand and pointing it upwards didn't help.


----------



## rudra

does sonarworks suggest holding the mic in the hand ? Interesting. may be their software works differently. Personally I wouldn't hold the mic in the hand as my body would act as a reflective surface.  even when I have done 32 point calibration with Audyessy it is always been on a stand to reduce reflection. Hopefully customer support will come up with a solution.


----------



## groovyd

rudra said:


> does sonarworks suggest holding the mic in the hand ? Interesting. may be their software works differently. Personally I wouldn't hold the mic in the hand as my body would act as a reflective surface.  even when I have done 32 point calibration with Audyessy it is always been on a stand to reduce reflection. Hopefully customer support will come up with a solution.


 

 They only say to use a stand if you cannot adjust the mic sensitivity while holding the mic. and to carry the mic to the different measurement positions around the room.  Anyway it doesn't make a difference I found to the problem at hand.
  
 I think the elephant in the room is drivers that fire backwards as well as forwards and are planar instead of cone shaped as well as the separate sub.


----------



## DonPor

Maybe the latency is the problem. 

I had the same issue when I tried to calibrate my speakers (DAC was a Grace m902, and mic amp a behringer I think.) The only way I found to reduce the latency by much was to use the behringer for both operations. Not the best way... but still better then no calibration.


----------



## johnjen

I wonder if it's your screen between the 2 speakers that has effectively acoustically coupled them together.
 I would imagine your sense of a 3d soundfield is terrific, but I bet it is confusing the algorythms to no end.
  
 JJ


----------



## Yoga

bosiemoncrieff said:


> Finally got Hijack and Sonarworks working. Pedalboard is a worthless piece of schiit. Pops and sputters all over your sound. Can't overstate how crippled and terrible a solution it is. Stock HD800 is preferable.


 

 I did warn you! :¬) Waste of time.


----------



## edwardsean

Anyone care to comment on Sonarworks with Hijack vs. Sonarworks Systemwide. I was excited to get it up and running, and it sounded good in the brief listen I had. However, things came up in the 5 day period and I didn't make it back to test it properly. I currently use the SW plugin version with Hijack. I love it, but has anyone found a. difference in a usability or sound quality using the new Systemwide version?


----------



## Yoga

That 5 day trial and discount was ridiculously short and messy, not to mention with all the bugs and whatnot. Although interested, I gave up because of it.

 My support ticket went cold and I heard noting back. Not very impressed.


----------



## groovyd

got a response from sonarworks and it was that the Shure usb to xlr adapter is not low enough latency to work, infact they said any usb to xlr adapter probably won't work since they rely on absolute timing and do not account for the sound interface latency in those estimates.  they recommend only a 'sound interface' which really is what i thought the shure was since it does convert xlr to usb same as any other 'sound interface' out there.  guessing it just doesn't have the latency performance needed.  i have ordered the new Zoom thunderbolt audio interface.
  
 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00R2IPLSY/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1
  
 this calibration project is getting quite spendy.  it would have been nice if it was clearer regarding exactly which 'audio interfaces' they do and do not support.  it would have been nice to see a complete list even.


----------



## castleofargh

the mic is clearly stated to be a XLR mic that needs phantom power, and the FAQ mentions to avoid USB mics. that seems pretty clear to me.
 I understand that one could expect a all-in-one calibration solution, but they mainly target professionals who will have at least one ADC lying around.
 there are cheaper solutions for the ADC if you're getting one only to do that one calibration. like something from behringer or focusrite.
  
 ps: this topic is about the headphone calibration 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.


----------



## groovyd

When I purchased it the page purchased from stated USB or XLR mic connection but I see they have changed it since... it isn't really all that clear to be honest, more of a small print footnote.  just to be clear the shure adapter 'is' an audio interface with internal ADC -AND- phantom power as they indicate is needed.  this is a latency issue which could/should be accounted for in the position algorithm estimates.  apparently having usb latency changes the distance to my speakers to make them further away.  how could that be considered professional?  a professional tool would measure round trip latency during the first step in calibration where they have you put the mic under 5 inches from the mid-range driver and subtract that off all further measurements. it could also determine the bus latency internally and query the driver buffer size settings to make adjustments around.


----------



## Netherwind

whatisit said:


> No need to wait.  (You'll probably be waiting a long time for this... I haven't seen anything for 6 months, and haven't seen any indication of a release on their website).
> 
> Sonarworks actually had a webpage that explained how to do this without it's unreleased systemwide solution.  For whatever reason, it seems to have disappeared.  But it's still cached in Google at: https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Uz1JuYtYGsoJ:https://sonarworks.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/207678555--Windows-I-d-like-to-use-the-plugin-on-any-audio-source-and-not-just-in-my-DAW-+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks, finally decided to give it a go and we're all squared away  Got my 650's targeting B&K which makes for an..interesting experience.
  
 I have no idea if I like it or want to pay for it, but it's definitely unique.


----------



## whatisit

Cool, at least you have the option of deciding now!  I tried it months ago and couldn't figure it out either.  Somehow finding myself thinking about it again recently and was actually able to find useful info - which I was happy to pass on.
  
 I'm in a trial period myself and leaning towards getting it, mostly because I can't be bothered to mess around with manually getting the EQ set up   That and because the flat profiles feel like they fatigue my ears less with the flattened EQ.


----------



## Netherwind

Yeah..
  
 I don't know, can always do another trial if I really want to, I'm not sure if it truly sounds better or not.


----------



## groovyd

Finally after getting special adapter cables to use both input and output from Zoom via thunderbolt I got calibration files for the mini maggies and 20.7s separately.  Now the question is how do you merge those files as I always listen to both sets of speakers together.


----------



## mcphable

I'm currently using the average calibration on my DT770's (250 ohm) but am strongly considering returning these and getting a calibrated set of either DT770's or Oppo PM-3's. I've read the pro's/con's of open vs. closed but I my usage requires closed. I also spent some time listening to the DT770's without calibration and I find them unusable; the highs are incredibly fatiguing, but sonarworks makes them affective tool. Price difference is a little over $100 between the two.
  
 Question is - has anyone listened to both with sonarworks average or individual calibrations and can advise whether there are significant gains to be had by going to PM-3's if both are running through individually calibrated versions of sonarworks? Does this partly or mostly level the playing field on those two? Best I can tell, there should be significant improvements in layering, separation, detail, and tonality, but I'm flying blind and could use some feedback before returning my set and spending the extra cash.
  
 Usage - mostly for electronic music production/mixing (with the occasional full-band, Christian music project) and only used when I'm unable to use the home studio, which is at least 50% of the time.
  
 Setup - MacBook Pro and an RME Babyface Pro.


----------



## groovyd

mcphable said:


> I'm currently using the average calibration on my DT770's (250 ohm) but am strongly considering returning these and getting a calibrated set of either DT770's or Oppo PM-3's. I've read the pro's/con's of open vs. closed but I my usage requires closed. I also spent some time listening to the DT770's without calibration and I find them unusable; the highs are incredibly fatiguing, but sonarworks makes them affective tool. Price difference is a little over $100 between the two.
> 
> Question is - has anyone listened to both with sonarworks average or individual calibrations and can advise whether there are significant gains to be had by going to PM-3's if both are running through individually calibrated versions of sonarworks? Does this partly or mostly level the playing field on those two? Best I can tell, there should be significant improvements in layering, separation, detail, and tonality, but I'm flying blind and could use some feedback before returning my set and spending the extra cash.
> 
> ...


 
  
 for me the improvement sonarworks makes on both headphones and speakers is pretty clear.  i would say averages vs a custom calibrated set of headphones will be significant and worth the cost. i'd be happy having a custom calibrated set of LCD-X for only $100 more then what I paid.


----------



## mcphable

groovyd - Thanks for the feedback! Any advice on custom calibration DT700 vs custom calibration PM-3? Any "mostly" guaranteed improvements by spending the extra cash on the PM-3's? I really don't want to spend the extra cash unless the differences are more than "minor" or you "may notice a slight...", etc. If the differences are significant, then I'll gladly go the cash!


----------



## groovyd

mcphable said:


> groovyd - Thanks for the feedback! Any advice on custom calibration DT700 vs custom calibration PM-3? Any "mostly" guaranteed improvements by spending the extra cash on the PM-3's? I really don't want to spend the extra cash unless the differences are more than "minor" or you "may notice a slight...", etc. If the differences are significant, then I'll gladly go the cash!


 
  
 judging by my experience with the software custom calibration will be more significant then many many other things in the hobby people spend much more then $100 on.  personally i would go for it as it also gives you that piece of mind knowing you got the best calibration possible and if you don't like the sound you are starting from a flat line that you can confidently dial in not some hard to quantify characteristic of the headphones.
  
 it is surprising after listening to my headphones and speakers using the calibrations how when I turn it off i'm like 'how could i have ever listened to these without it?'


----------



## phoenixdogfan

I have the custom Sonarworks calibration for my LCD X and I'm sure it makes a much greater difference in the sound quality I enjoy than any putative upgrade of amp or dac ever could at any price.


----------



## groovyd

phoenixdogfan said:


> I have the custom Sonarworks calibration for my LCD X and I'm sure it makes a much greater difference in the sound quality I enjoy than any putative upgrade of amp or dac ever could at any price.


 

 seems entirely possible.  how much was it to send them in for the calibration?  is it not something i can do at home with their calibration microphone? shipping expensive? take a long time?


----------



## phoenixdogfan

No, they have to go to Riga Latvia.  After buying the generic package, I believe the cost of custom calibration is $65-75 plus you pay shipping plus insurance to Latvia.  The return leg SW pays for the shipping and insurance.  Entire process takes around four weeks.


----------



## groovyd

ran another calibration with the tweeter attenuators of the mini maggies removed.  figured since it is already making adjustments best to give it the unmodified speaker.  removes a good sized dip above 3k in the spectrum that it won't have to correct for. calibration goes smoothly for the first 15 of 25 measurements then gets really difficult to pass the last 10 since they are closer to the speakers and it seems the front/back reflections must be causing issues. its location of the mic seems to abruptly fall apart past a certain closeness to the speakers.
  
 really need to figure out a way to merge both calibrations of the minis and 20.7s so it sounds consistent going from desktop to walking around the room. it would also be nice to be able to run it a bunch of times and average out the results since i'm sure there is a good bit of error in the measurements considering the room and speaker situation.


----------



## groovyd

Filter phase preferences... Min Latency, Optimum, or Linear Phase ?  Which is your preference and why?
  
 Here is my current calibration for my Mini Maggies.  Am targeting the 'B&K 1974 optimum hi-fi curve' but add the sizzle back in flattening out the dip below 0 from 2k and up with added eq in JRiver and been using Linear so far and don't mind the 63ms latency at all.  Would be nice to be able to further customize the target curve by dragging the curve or via parametric settings rather then having to rely on a second eq in the chain.  I just find the B&K curve takes a bit too much life out of the highs and flattening it above 2k restores it while also giving a balanced but cozy warmth down below.  Tried the flat target for awhile but its a bit too cold for me.
  

  
 Here is my calibration for the 20.7's though I don't use this since I am mostly at my desk it sounds better to have both speakers just set to the mini calibration...


----------



## groovyd

Sending 3 of my headphones in for calibration... My X, XC and McIntosh MHP1000


----------



## 514077

You know, this is getting frickin' irritating.  I get the email to try systemwide, install it, copy my trial licence key, and they still won't activate without jumping through hoops.  I click on the icon and it doesn't open the program.
 I'm dying to hear the improvement to the LCD-x.  But, frankly, it's beginning to be a big pain.
 I guess I'll take a couple of hours off to get a fresh look at the problem.  But the original free trial months ago, didn't work.  I couldn't open the 'buy' page this morning.
 Get it together, Sonarworks!


----------



## dukefx

It activated just fine for me, but WMP refuses to play FLACs through Sonarworks Virtual Audio Device (every other output works flawlessly for WMP and FLACs). It plays MP3s and all kinds of videos tho. Foobar and MPC have no such issue and they are all set to default device.
  
 Update: Youtube doesn't really work either. At this point it's extremely glitchy.


----------



## MattTCG

I was looking for someone who has tried SW with the hd700. Is it as revolutionary with the hd700 as it is with the hd800?


----------



## admbr

Just turned Sonarworks off after a long stretch of use....

With my foobar setup where SW is the last in the DSP chain, I miss the neutrality. When using OOYH (which I use with JRiver for the superior channel upsampling), a surround sound speaker simulator, it sounds much better without--I am guessing this is because SW is being applied before OOYH "recolors" the sound.

Would anyone be able to venture a guess as to whether the "System-wide" version would allow me to apply SW after OOYH? The program works through a virtual device, and its important that I be able to use WASAPI output rather than DirectSound (SQ really suffers without exclusive output, in my ears).


----------



## admbr

matttcg said:


> I was looking for someone who has tried SW with the hd700. Is it as revolutionary with the hd700 as it is with the hd800?


 The degree of "improvement" should scale inversely with how "neutral" the headphones sound signature is to begin with.

Given that we're talking similar models of the same brand, I'd say you could expect similar results. My bet is the 800's would be more neutral, in which case you'd have slightly better returns with the 700's.


----------



## phoenixdogfan

Wrong on the 800s, it makes a dramatic difference in their listenability, while not affecting their transparency.  It transforms the 800.


----------



## 514077

@Rude Wolf
 I tried to set up an account earlier to get help with getting my 5-day trial to work.  There's a visual capcha preventing this potential customer from establishing an account.  I realize the need to protect your site from bots, but, since it is a site dealing with audio products, it would be great if you could set up a sound capcha for those who need it.
 Thanks.
 Oh, by the way, my emailed code won't activate the trial.


----------



## nvfan

Does Sonarworks actually work in Windows and how would you get this to work with say Foobar, or is this mainly a Mac program?


----------



## dukefx

The VST works fine with Foobar (load it with its VST Wrapper). The new systemwide version is extremely unstable and therefore useless at this point. I've tested it for about a day and gave up. I don't even know how it was implemented but it doesn't seem to be an APO. You can turn the VST into a systemwide plugin using virtual soundcards for routing and a standalone VST host like VSTHost or SaviHost. It's stable.


----------



## groovyd

dukefx said:


> The VST works fine with Foobar (load it with its VST Wrapper). The new systemwide version is extremely unstable and therefore useless at this point. I've tested it for about a day and gave up. I don't even know how it was implemented but it doesn't seem to be an APO. You can turn the VST into a systemwide plugin using virtual soundcards for routing and a standalone VST host like VSTHost or SaviHost. It's stable.


 
  
 As far as I know they have not released a Windows version yet.  The Mac version which I have been running for about a month works great.  It has a couple small issues like having to reset it's output device following system sleep or powering off the output device but they are working on fixing it.  The fact that it handles both headphones and speakers all in one simple tray app is definitely worth using in my opinion it really improves the sound to all calibrated devices I have used it on.  t has impressed me so much I am packaging up all my headphones and shipping them to latvia for calibration next week.  I mean if I can get my T1 for example to sound like my LCD-X my neck will really thank me for that


----------



## dukefx

groovyd said:


> dukefx said:
> 
> 
> > The VST works fine with Foobar (load it with its VST Wrapper). The new systemwide version is extremely unstable and therefore useless at this point. I've tested it for about a day and gave up. I don't even know how it was implemented but it doesn't seem to be an APO. You can turn the VST into a systemwide plugin using virtual soundcards for routing and a standalone VST host like VSTHost or SaviHost. It's stable.
> ...


 
 They have, I got a notification on the 23rd along with a 5 day trial key. I'm not questioning its usefulness as it does a marvelous job compared to a few others I tried (by far my favorite).


----------



## groovyd

dukefx said:


> They have, I got a notification on the 23rd along with a 5 day trial key. I'm not questioning its usefulness as it does a marvelous job compared to a few others I tried (by far my favorite).


 

 so they released it already?  just last week they had said it was giving them troubles so they weren't going to release it yet.  i guess they were right. would be great once it works as i run windows at work.


----------



## 514077

dukefx said:


> groovyd said:
> 
> 
> > dukefx said:
> ...


 
 I got the same email.  If a regular guy can't get it to work, then I'm healicly twisted.


----------



## bosiemoncrieff

matttcg said:


> I was looking for someone who has tried SW with the hd700. Is it as revolutionary with the hd700 as it is with the hd800?


 

 At the risk of self-aggrandizement, I quote myself from the HD800 thread:
  


bosiemoncrieff said:


> The HD800 does indeed have better bass than the HD700. With Sonarworks, its bass is exceptional for most genres.
> 
> I've tried a number of mods to get the best bass out of HD700, and so far my favorites are the "Blendtec®" mod and the "invisible cable" mod. For the first one, take the HD700, and put it in a Blendtec® (you can see this mod applied to an iPad here, and if you don't have a Blendtec®, a Vitamix is an acceptable alternative). Then, puree the HD700 until it is in pieces smaller than 1cm. This bass sounds better than any other configuration I've tried.
> 
> For the more reversible "invisible cable" mod, unplug your cable from your amp and from the HD700. Ask a friend or spouse to hide it somewhere in your home. Then, turn on your amp and listen as usual with an invisible cable.


----------



## groovyd

yeah even the mac version was hard to get going.  the breakthrough was realizing it requires purchased headphone and speaker plugin licenses.  In other words you cannot demo systemwide unless you already own their headphone and speaker plugins, the plugin demo licenses do not work with it.  once you buy the plugin licenses it works fine.  basically you are demoing systemwide, not the plugins.  if you want to demo the plugins alone then you would need a good VST player. but i would argue the value of this is in the systemwide app in that it doesnt require being a audio guru to setup (once you have the licenses). it just runs in the tray across all audio of the computer.


----------



## 514077

groovyd said:


> yeah even the mac version was hard to get going.  the breakthrough was realizing it requires purchased headphone and speaker plugin licenses.  In other words you cannot demo systemwide unless you already own their headphone and speaker plugins, the plugin demo licenses do not work with it.  once you buy the plugin licenses it works fine.  basically you are demoing systemwide, not the plugins.  if you want to demo the plugins alone then you would need a good VST player. but i would argue the value of this is in the systemwide app in that it doesnt require being a audio guru to setup (once you have the licenses). it just runs in the tray across all audio of the computer.


 
 Problem is I couldn't get even the pluggin to work during the 21-day trial.  I'm not spending any money unless I can get to hear if it's worth it or not.  I even got an automatic mail asking where I was or what did I think.  I said, let me have one more trial period and a bit of assistance.  They said,  No...Next?
 I'm beginning to think we don't matter like their professional engineering customers do.  That's RW's meal ticket.  
 So, I give up.  Just another inadiquately constructed piece of expensive software.


----------



## groovyd

Systemwide is clearly an admission by them that they need to expand their market.


----------



## 514077

groovyd said:


> Systemwide is clearly an admission by them that they need to expand their market.


 
 Now that I've had a good night sleep:
 If I understand you correctly, I have to have owned their HP or speaker original software so I can begin to use the SystemWide?  If so, I'll get my son to download the pluggin and see if it does the trick.
 Thanks.


----------



## groovyd

uelong said:


> Now that I've had a good night sleep:
> If I understand you correctly, I have to have owned their HP or speaker original software so I can begin to use the SystemWide?  If so, I'll get my son to download the pluggin and see if it does the trick.
> Thanks.


 

 yes their licensing is quite confusing which is the reason for most people's difficulties in installation of a demo.  Essentially they sell 2 VST plugins, one for speakers and one for headphones.  They are mostly the same internally as a sort of EQ that only reads their calibration files so you can't set the curves really much yourself.  The plugins can be used alone without systemwide but then you need to load them within some more involved app like JRiver MediaCenter (except MC21 had a bug which wouldn't load VSTs) and some others like Audio Hijack (mac) that support VST plugins.  Besides needing to be run from within the supporting media player that is also where you apply the license codes to unlock them to actually work.  In this manner they also don't EQ all computer audio, just the song you are playing.  It is also quite a process to go in and for example switch calibrations for different headphones or speakers while Systemwide has a simple pull down taskbar selection and covers all computer audio.
  
 To demo systemwide you cannot use a demo license of their speaker or headphone plugins, it requires a real license, fully purchased.  They each cost around $100 or so and so if you want to demo systemwide then you need to upfront those costs. Alternatively you could demo those plugins alone in your JRiver or whatever to get an idea how it would sound through systemwide.
  
 Ok, so now you purchased the both speaker and headphones plugins (systemwide requires both to work, not just one or the other).  Systemwide won't validate your license for those plugins so you still need to first go into your JRiver and load them up to unlock them.  Once you do this then come back to systemwide and unlock systemwide itself with the license code for that.  At this point it should just work, about $450+ later assuming you purchased their speaker and headphones calibration bundle which also includes a calibrated mic which you would need to calibrate and use the speaker plugin.
  
 The headphone plugin comes with preset calibration averages for a few common headphones so you don't need the mic for that but you are getting an average of that headphone, not custom to your unit.  The speaker plugin has no presets so you would need that mic to create a file to calibrate your speakers.  The process of calibrating speakers can be quite challenging with it's own set of requirements.  The biggest being a very low latency audio interface that provides phantom power to their calibrated mic.  I tried a couple via USB2 and they had too much latency to calibrate.  I finally succeeded with a Zoom Thunderbolt audio interface which ran another $300 or so on Amazon.  Even with this extreme low latency interface I had to really work at it to get it to successfully calibrate.  The problem is it tries self-locating the mic in the space of your room relative to both speakers using chirps and something like gps triangulation of the sound.  There are 25 measurement positions in the room it requires to calibrate and the tolerance on that self location of those positions is around 1 foot radius.
  
 They may have relaxed some of those licensing requirements or the ability to activate your plugin licenses from within Systemwide by now but this is how it was when I signed up.  For both speaker and headphone calibration including the mic and systemwide and actually calibrating your speakers you are looking at around $800 all in.  If you want your headphones custom calibrated instead of using their averages then it is another $100 each headphone plus shipping to latvia.
  
 Good Luck!


----------



## dukefx

I didn't have any license other than the 5 day trial key I got when I tested the systemwide version. The 21 day key I got for the HP plugin expired long ago. The license worked and it did its job perfectly for a few minutes until it started to glitch out and I had to either wait, set buffer size or completely restart the application to make it do its magic again.


----------



## groovyd

dukefx said:


> I didn't have any license other than the 5 day trial key I got when I tested the systemwide version. The 21 day key I got for the HP plugin expired long ago. The license worked and it did its job perfectly for a few minutes until it started to glitch out and I had to either wait, set buffer size or completely restart the application to make it do its magic again.


 

 Perhaps they changed the requirements or perhaps it is different for windows?  Could have also detected your old license code even though it expired.  There are still a few bugs no doubt their licensing system is the biggest issue I see so far.


----------



## 514077

groovyd said:


> uelong said:
> 
> 
> > Now that I've had a good night sleep:
> ...


 
 I think I'll just try to get the pluggin to work in Foobar.  Can't afford $450.00 right now; and that's Murrican greenbacks.
 Thanks for the descriptive explanation.  Thank god for the Irish whisky under my desk.


----------



## 514077

Uh, I installed the plug-in, added it to my VST in FB.  But, we don't see a place in FB to copy in the trial code, or choose the HP I wish to select.  Where does this all show up?  Just using the plug-in, not the SystemWide.  Any extra help is appreciated.


----------



## phoenixdogfan

Open up the plug in in Foobar, something should pop up asking for the code which you have copied from the email.  Paste in the box, hit enter, and, if you're on the internet, the code will be verified and you be authorized and activated.


----------



## groovyd

yeah, you need to open the plugin to pass the licensing.


----------



## groovyd

Just shipped off 4 pair of headphones for calibration, cost of shipping alone without insurance was $100 an takes 6-10 days from Atlanta, USPS. Headed to Argentina for 2 weeks around my birthday leaving tonight so figured this would help reduce my time without them. 
  
 LCD-X
 LCD-XC
 MHP1000
 T1
  
 Hoping in the end the T1 can sound just as good as the X and then I could save my neck some grief.


----------



## 514077

phoenixdogfan said:


> Open up the plug in in Foobar, something should pop up asking for the code which you have copied from the email.  Paste in the box, hit enter, and, if you're on the internet, the code will be verified and you be authorized and activated.


 
 Thanks.  I got to that stage.  I assume you open the plugin once you've added it to the PB/DSP area.  If that's so, I suffered a FB crash with a white screen of blankness.
 I also have sox resampler in the chain which I stopped using.
 I'm almost there, but something may be missing.  Java JRE seems to be showing up in my task manager.  I use W7.
 Please, any more suggestions?


----------



## 514077

groovyd said:


> Just shipped off 4 pair of headphones for calibration, cost of shipping alone without insurance was $100 an takes 6-10 days from Atlanta, USPS. Headed to Argentina for 2 weeks around my birthday leaving tonight so figured this would help reduce my time without them.
> 
> LCD-X
> LCD-XC
> ...


 
 Let us know about the X.  They can be quite varied from unit to unit, if I understand.


----------



## 514077

Okay, I did an online troubleshoot of FB2K.  Seems the Foo_VST0903 plugin has crash problems.
 You know, I admit defeat.  I've found that the Xs scale well with updated sources, cables etc.  But, it's not worth the sence of futility with this product.  It's as frustrating to me as being shut out of many sites due to capchas.  Seems bots and blind guys are doomed to frustration.
 Good luck Rude baby.  I know your world won't end, but you just lost one customer.


----------



## drwlf

uelong said:


> Okay, I did an online troubleshoot of FB2K.  Seems the Foo_VST0903 plugin has crash problems.
> You know, I admit defeat.  I've found that the Xs scale well with updated sources, cables etc.  But, it's not worth the sence of futility with this product.  It's as frustrating to me as being shut out of many sites due to capchas.  Seems bots and blind guys are doomed to frustration.
> Good luck Rude baby.  I know your world won't end, but you just lost one customer.


 

 The lack of activity of any official responses here on the thread is having the same effect for me as well.


----------



## groovyd

The 4 headphones (LCD-X + XC + MHP1000 + T1) I shipped to them 3 weeks ago still has not arrived to them.  Tracking shows 'missed delivery' 4 times in a row.  A bit nervous if you know what I mean... Now what?


----------



## RudeWolf

That's not right. Have you contacted support?


----------



## groovyd

rudewolf said:


> That's not right. Have you contacted support?


 

 I have... let's hope they straighten this out... tracking shows the package sitting in the post office in Riga most likely awaiting return to me very soon...


----------



## phoenixdogfan

When I sent my LCD X to Riga, it took a while for them to pick it up at the post office.  I would not worry about it, seems like your experience is par for the course.  Expect them to keep your stuff about two weeks before it is picked up for return shipping.


----------



## groovyd

phoenixdogfan said:


> When I sent my LCD X to Riga, it took a while for them to pick it up at the post office.  I would not worry about it, seems like your experience is par for the course.  Expect them to keep your stuff about two weeks before it is picked up for return shipping.


 

 It has been there for longer then 2 weeks after their first delivery attempt...


----------



## MattTCG

groovyd said:


> I have... let's hope they straighten this out... tracking shows the package sitting in the post office in Riga most likely awaiting return to me very soon...


 
  
 This is...well, not good. I was contemplating mailing them two pair for calibration. But this does not make me feel warm and fuzzy about the process.


----------



## groovyd

matttcg said:


> This is...well, not good. I was contemplating mailing them two pair for calibration. But this does not make me feel warm and fuzzy about the process.


 

 This is part of the reason I wasn't comfortable with you throwing in a couple pair in my box... was already worried about postal issues.


----------



## MattTCG

groovyd said:


> This is part of the reason I wasn't comfortable with you throwing in a couple pair in my box... was already worried about postal issues.


 
  
 Good looking out brother...appreciated.


----------



## johnjen

Shipping concerns was what killed my decision to send my 800's in for getting them measured as well.
 Besides the cost, the uncertainty of them getting 'lost' was foremost in my mind.
  
 And when I looked into the issue of insurance, what I learned didn't help much either.
  
 JJ


----------



## groovyd

Was quite expensive to ship them too...


----------



## phoenixdogfan

Depends on how you do it. I went to UPS to see what they would charge with insurance, and I nearly choked on my slurpee when they told me.  Ended up paying about $40 with the USPS.


----------



## RudeWolf

Shipping from outside EU can be a pain. Especially with national snail mail. The problem is that even if they show that notices are being delivered, you can't be sure if we're actually getting them. My advice is - bug the hell out of our support and make sure that we're on high alert once the package lands. Even if we don't have the notice, we'll go to the post office and get your stuff with tracking number.
  
 Believe me - we'd rather have the package out of the door as fast as possible and back to you.


----------



## groovyd

rudewolf said:


> Shipping from outside EU can be a pain. Especially with national snail mail. The problem is that even if they show that notices are being delivered, you can't be sure if we're actually getting them. My advice is - bug the hell out of our support and make sure that we're on high alert once the package lands. Even if we don't have the notice, we'll go to the post office and get your stuff with tracking number.
> 
> Believe me - we'd rather have the package out of the door as fast as possible and back to you.


 

 I paid over $80 shipping and it was supposed to be a 5-10 day delivery which according to them they followed through on.  I gave support the tracking so let's hope they wrestle this thing out of wherever it is laying.  I think Sonarworks would easily be able to double their calibration business if it setup a rep in the USA with a calibration rig.


----------



## MattTCG

groovyd said:


> I paid over $80 shipping and it was supposed to be a 5-10 day delivery which according to them they followed through on.  I gave support the tracking so let's hope they wrestle this thing out of wherever it is laying.  *I think Sonarworks would easily be able to double their calibration business if it setup a rep in the USA with a calibration rig.*


 
 THIS.


----------



## dukefx

It would make just as much sense as setting up a rep at Edinburgh of the Seven Seas. The world doesn't revolve around the USA.


----------



## MattTCG

^^ No one said that it did.


----------



## groovyd

dukefx said:


> It would make just as much sense as setting up a rep at Edinburgh of the Seven Seas. The world doesn't revolve around the USA.


 

 nice headphones in your profile pic


----------



## johnjen

Another option, it seems to me, would be for Sonarworks to set up an account with an international shipper such as DHL or similar, to handle the shipping in both directions.
 Businesses that set up a 'commercial' account with a shipper usually have far more influence on getting the shipments handled properly and at much lower cost as well.
 And, handling insurance claims, when needed, can usually be much quicker as well.
  
 And as I see it, if this service were streamlined more would jump at the chance to get their HP dialed in.
 In fact I can think of at least 6 people here in the Seattle area alone, who would opt for this and some of them would be sending in multiple HP's.
  
 Just a thought or 2.
  
 JJ


----------



## bosiemoncrieff

If I had to choose two cities to have headquarters, it would be Berlin and Chicago. Both are cheaper than other comparable cities (Vienna, London, Paris; New York, San Francisco, Los Angeles) and relatively central to their respective continents. I'm not sure where in Asia would be best, but I think Singapore wouldn't be too bad—not as polluted as the major Chinese cities and not as expensive as Hong Kong or Tokyo.


----------



## groovyd

my wild imagination sees the process of calibration as...
  - remove headphones from box
  - plug in and place on one of those dummy heads
  - push 'go' and wait for 30 seconds
  - put headphones back in same box
  - return ship
  
 is this over-simplifying the process? seems like something anyone could do reliably anywhere in the world with the right dummy head and calibration software.  i would be willing to do it for them for all us customers if they set me up with the rig.


----------



## johnjen

groovyd said:


> my wild imagination sees the process of calibration as...
> - remove headphones from box
> - plug in and place on one of those dummy heads
> - push 'go' and wait for 30 seconds
> ...


 
 Another factor is the training and experience of the operator.
 Which, as a single factor, can make or break the entire process.
  
 You also need a suitably controlled and quiet room to perform the measurements in.
 This alone can be an expensive aspect, especially if you live in or near a major city.
 Aircraft, trains, freeway and truck traffic, etc, can really mess with the results obtained.
  
 Just a thought or 2.
  
 JJ


----------



## dukefx

Yup, one of the reasons I didn't attempt a loudspeaker calibration. I live in the outskirts of my town and there is minimal traffic, but even the vents on my PC may interfere, not to mention I'd need a much better mic.


----------



## RudeWolf

groovyd said:


> my wild imagination sees the process of calibration as...
> - remove headphones from box
> - plug in and place on one of those dummy heads
> - push 'go' and wait for 30 seconds
> ...


 
  
 Currently the individual calibration process takes no less than 3 trained audio engineers spending some time with the headphones in question. For some headphones the calibration is little more than just "flipping" the measurement curve, but around 80% require heavy manual compensation for measurement artefacts in higher frequencies. All headphones are compared by ear to the reference by 3 guys after which the chief science guy gives a final listen and greenlights the compensation curve. Or doesn't.
  
 We're constantly working to simplify the process, but currently this is the only way to get good AND consistent results.
  
  


johnjen said:


> You also need a suitably controlled and quiet room to perform the measurements in.
> This alone can be an expensive aspect, especially if you live in or near a major city.
> Aircraft, trains, freeway and truck traffic, etc, can really mess with the results obtained.


 
  
 It's not as important for relative measurements, but for absolutes - for sure. We were lucky to repurpose an old soviet film studio building into an office space. It's in the city outskirts and purpose built to lessen low frequency noise from nearby sources.


----------



## 514077

rudewolf said:


> groovyd said:
> 
> 
> > my wild imagination sees the process of calibration as...
> ...


 
 What about streamlining the setup and licensing keys that defeated me for one?  Couldn't even try it out for the 21-day trial period.  I'm a music listener, not a software engineer.  Just a potential user who would like to enjoy the benefits of this product.


----------



## groovyd

uelong said:


> What about streamlining the setup and licensing keys that defeated me for one?  Couldn't even try it out for the 21-day trial period.  I'm a music listener, not a software engineer.  Just a potential user who would like to enjoy the benefits of this product.


 

 I think they mentioned working on the license issues specifically... it is a very rough experience no doubt.  Personally I am awaiting a Systemwide bug fix for some output device issues it has that leave me fighting with it at least a couple times a day.


----------



## groovyd

Still no word regarding my shipment to Sonarworks.  It has been nearly 1 month now and tracking still shows the same missed deliveries.


----------



## johnjen

RudeWolf said:


> snip
> It's not as important for relative measurements, but for absolutes - for sure. We were lucky to repurpose an old soviet film studio building into an office space. It's in the city outskirts and purpose built to lessen low frequency noise from nearby sources.


Another aspect is contamination of the signal the mics hear.
Especially in the very low end since bass can travel great distances and penetrate buildings so readily.
Since Sonarworks has access to a 'real' sound studio, which is a MAJOR find I can see where your services have a leg up.
And being in the outskirts etc is going to make it much harder to replicate this degree of 'calibration' elsewhere as well.

And one factor that seems to be missed by most is the ability of your s/w to balance the channel to channel FR for the entire audio bandwidth.
This alone can have a HUGE impact on overall SQ.
Being able to match both channels response, to each other, at the headphones, is entirely new and is the major attraction for me to want to get mine measured to begin with.

JJ


----------



## dobigstuff

MattTCG said:


> I was looking for someone who has tried SW with the hd700. Is it as revolutionary with the hd700 as it is with the hd800?



MattTCG:
I just downloaded Sonarworks Reference 3 Headphone Plug-in.  I do have the HD 700's.  My initial reaction after listening for about a half hour is Wider soundstage, cleaner presentation and I had no problem driving my Little Dot MK III.
I use JRiver DLNA > Marantz NA 7004 Music Server 24/96kHz > Musical Fidelity M1 Dac > Little Dot MK III.

Now I am just using the Flat Line with the HD 700 Average.  I only tried the Custom with 1 dB Bass Boost and 2 dB of Tilt for a short time.  Still need to review.

Prior to this I was using the JRiver with:

Output Format
Vol Leveling
Adaptive Volume
EQ
Parametric EQ
Now I just use Sonarworks.  So far it is great.  I need to listen to a bunch of my stuff for a while.


----------



## MattTCG

^^ That's great info! I appreciate you sharing.


----------



## dobigstuff

No Problem.  Will keep you posted.


----------



## mcphable

groovyd said:


> Still no word regarding my shipment to Sonarworks.  It has been nearly 1 month now and tracking still shows the same missed deliveries.



I returned a set of custom calibrated DT 770's back on March 27th via USPS for about $22 (from Orlando, FL). It was supposed to take 10-14 days and came with a tracking number. The tracking number comes up "Not Trackable." USPS said this happens frequently on their international items once it reaches the destination country. So, I like you, am 5+ weeks into shipping, no sign of a delivery, and still waiting on my refund (which will go toward the Oppo PM-3's I bought the day I returned the DT 770's). Now with these shipping issues, I'm seriously debating whether I'm willing to get these custom calibrated like I planned. That said, I own the studio & headphone software and it is worth every penny (and so is the custom headphone calibration), but shipping is a nightmare!


----------



## groovyd (May 4, 2017)

mcphable said:


> I returned a set of custom calibrated DT 770's back on March 27th via USPS for about $22 (from Orlando, FL). It was supposed to take 10-14 days and came with a tracking number. The tracking number comes up "Not Trackable." USPS said this happens frequently on their international items once it reaches the destination country. So, I like you, am 5+ weeks into shipping, no sign of a delivery, and still waiting on my refund (which will go toward the Oppo PM-3's I bought the day I returned the DT 770's). Now with these shipping issues, I'm seriously debating whether I'm willing to get these custom calibrated like I planned. That said, I own the studio & headphone software and it is worth every penny (and so is the custom headphone calibration), but shipping is a nightmare!



Yeah this is a complete disaster to have 4 high end headphones worth almost $8k just lost in the post with no one to call or who answers the phone... I highly recommend against anyone using this service until they sort out how to handle the process more reliably from end to end.  What bothers me most is the tracking says 'missed delivery' 3 times but according to Sonarworks support the package is still in the airport and hasn't cleared customs.  It blows my mind tracking could indicate various missed deliveries when it hasn't even legally entered the country yet.  How exactly did that happen and what is the value of tracking when they can tag it with anything they want at any stage of shipment. It cost me over $80 shipping and was to take 5-10 days and it has been over a month now.


----------



## drwlf

@mcphable @groovyd 
Sounds really awful, I wonder why there's no official replies here either.
Things like these tend to blow up, and the negative PR needs to be quickly addressed. Why would anybody send the headphones for calibration after such stories.


----------



## phoenixdogfan

groovyd said:


> Yeah this is a complete disaster to have 4 high end headphones worth almost $8k just lost in the post with no one to call or who answers the phone... I highly recommend against anyone using this service until they sort out how to handle the process more reliably from end to end.  What bothers me most is the tracking says 'missed delivery' 3 times but according to Sonarworks support the package is still in the airport and hasn't cleared customs.  It blows my mind tracking could indicate various missed deliveries when it hasn't even legally entered the country yet.  How exactly did that happen and what is the value of tracking when they can tag it with anything they want at any stage of shipment. It cost me over $80 shipping and was to take 5-10 days and it has been over a month now.


The exact same thing happened with me, when I sent my LCD Xs last year.  For some reason the phones get "stuck" at the Riga Post office (customs, maybe) for like 2 weeks and your USPS indicates "missed delivery", but don't sweat it.  Eventually it does clear, and then goes to their shop which takes another 10 days to 2 weeks.  Then  they send it back which takes another week.  THEN YOU GET THEM BACK, and they sound fantastic. 

I don't think they're lost or ripped off.  It just takes time.  I've been there, and this is my experience.  Hope this helps.


----------



## RudeWolf

High value items get stuck in customs. It's a facility near the airport and national post office, probably that's why it shows up as being held in post. It amazes me that some services show missed deliveries even if there can't be any. For cases like these we have a customs agent who does the paperwork and convinces the officials that we're not keeping these headphones for ourselves. Otherwise we would be dodging some serious VAT and our government seems to frown upon small businesses doing that.

Now, here's the kicker - sometimes we don't get notices that there are items meant for us sitting in customs. Which seems to be the case this time. So if you're sending from overseas something valuable, send us a message beforehand. The calibration service we're doing doesn't include logistics to our site, so it's up to the customer to get their cans to us. That however doesn't mean that we're not motivated to help them out.

We're currently looking into options of declaring that headphones sent in for calibration are declared as broken and sent in for repairs.


----------



## groovyd

RudeWolf said:


> High value items get stuck in customs. It's a facility near the airport and national post office, probably that's why it shows up as being held in post. It amazes me that some services show missed deliveries even if there can't be any. For cases like these we have a customs agent who does the paperwork and convinces the officials that we're not keeping these headphones for ourselves. Otherwise we would be dodging some serious VAT and our government seems to frown upon small businesses doing that.
> 
> Now, here's the kicker - sometimes we don't get notices that there are items meant for us sitting in customs. Which seems to be the case this time. So if you're sending from overseas something valuable, send us a message beforehand. The calibration service we're doing doesn't include logistics to our site, so it's up to the customer to get their cans to us. That however doesn't mean that we're not motivated to help them out.
> 
> We're currently looking into options of declaring that headphones sent in for calibration are declared as broken and sent in for repairs.



I have indicated to support and including tracking number weeks ago but it doesn't appear that your special customs agent is doing that paperwork?  My support tickets keep getting closed as 'solved'.  Best chance of this getting resolved is for someone there to go to that airport office and request clearance.


----------



## dobigstuff

MattTCG said:


> ^^ That's great info! I appreciate you sharing.



MattTCG:

So far I have settled on the Custom Calibration with 1 dB Bass and 2 dB of Tilt, Mixed Phase Filter and Dry / Wet at 60.
Happy Listening


----------



## groovyd

dobigstuff said:


> MattTCG:
> 
> So far I have settled on the Custom Calibration with 1 dB Bass and 2 dB of Tilt, Mixed Phase Filter and Dry / Wet at 60.
> Happy Listening



if you don't use linear phase and it is not a 100% wet mix does this introduce additional 'phase shift' since the original samples are playing at the same time as delayed wet samples?  Assuming while using linear phase it shifts the original by the same number of samples during the mix?  Seems this would introduce a sort of frequency based reverb?


----------



## dobigstuff

groovyd said:


> if you don't use linear phase and it is not a 100% wet mix does this introduce additional 'phase shift' since the original samples are playing at the same time as delayed wet samples?  Assuming while using linear phase it shifts the original by the same number of samples during the mix?  Seems this would introduce a sort of frequency based reverb?



groovyd:

I just started using Sonarworks.  I am presently trying the Custom with mixed phase.  I was listening through the iDSD Black and the HD 700's and just started adjusting the Dry / Wet until it sounded best.  I am not getting any distortion or reverb.  The Flat Calibration also sound good.

Thanks


----------



## groovyd

things have gotten really quiet and sparse on here since they updated their interface.  of the dozen threads i am subscribed to none have shown any activity or hardly any.


----------



## drwlf

groovyd said:


> things have gotten really quiet and sparse on here since they updated their interface.  of the dozen threads i am subscribed to none have shown any activity or hardly any.


Yeah, let's hope we bounce back soon.

Any new experiences with the system-wide?


----------



## groovyd

drwlf said:


> Yeah, let's hope we bounce back soon.
> 
> Any new experiences with the system-wide?



Well my 4 headphones I shipped off to them April 1st are still missing so I haven't really gotten to use it.  I don't feel like anyone there is really motivated to actually resolving this issue and getting the package out of the customs office on their side.  Maybe they are, just doesn't seem that way.  If one of their 'agents' went down to the airport office with whatever paperwork is needed I am sure it would be released.


----------



## groovyd (May 12, 2017)

Updated tracking information shows another attempted and missed delivery on May 8th.  Please someone send the 'special' agent' to the airport with this tracking number and secure this package before it is returned to me or lost forever.


----------



## RudeWolf

The headphones will be in our lab on Monday. We finally had the chance to pay an 80EUR fee to get them out of customs.

I'm sad to announce that this means that we're putting a hold on our custom calibration service to overseas clients. This is not acceptable and we clearly won't be able to provide a good service due to customs holdups.

If anyone from overseas wants to get a custom calibrated pair of cans, the easiest way would be buying new an EU store and shipping them directly to us. Or just buying from our store, if we offer a model you need.


----------



## phoenixdogfan

RudeWolf said:


> The headphones will be in our lab on Monday. We finally had the chance to pay an 80EUR fee to get them out of customs.
> 
> I'm sad to announce that this means that we're putting a hold on our custom calibration service to overseas clients. This is not acceptable and we clearly won't be able to provide a good service due to customs holdups.
> 
> If anyone from overseas wants to get a custom calibrated pair of cans, the easiest way would be buying new an EU store and shipping them directly to us. Or just buying from our store, if we offer a model you need.


I guess that means I will Never be able to send you my SD modded HD 800 for custom calibration.. SAD.


----------



## groovyd

certainly glad to hear you located it.  yes it would maybe be a good idea to organize perhaps a rep in the states who can perform calibrations for you.  i'm an engineer and would be happy to setup a calibration office in atlanta for you if possible. i think it would greatly expand your calibration business.  there is a huge market for it here this would open up.  i appreciate you following through on this for me.


----------



## groovyd

according to tracking the package is now in New York ???


----------



## mcphable

groovyd said:


> Yeah this is a complete disaster to have 4 high end headphones worth almost $8k just lost in the post with no one to call or who answers the phone... I highly recommend against anyone using this service until they sort out how to handle the process more reliably from end to end.  What bothers me most is the tracking says 'missed delivery' 3 times but according to Sonarworks support the package is still in the airport and hasn't cleared customs.  It blows my mind tracking could indicate various missed deliveries when it hasn't even legally entered the country yet.  How exactly did that happen and what is the value of tracking when they can tag it with anything they want at any stage of shipment. It cost me over $80 shipping and was to take 5-10 days and it has been over a month now.



Just had an inquiry done at USPS on my package. It was shipped on March 27th and arrived at the local post in Latvia on April 2nd. Final delivery attempt on May 5th was undeliverable and since the package was still unclaimed, it's now on its way back to me. It was only $22 and change to ship but now it's been a month and a half and I have no choice but to throw another $22 at another delivery attempt because I need that refund. Are you kidding me???!!


----------



## johnjen (May 16, 2017)

I gotta say that $22 is a bargain, at least in terms of the cost.
When I was looking into the cost of sending just my 800's with full insurance, the cost was $300+ one way.
I checked DHL, FedEx and UPS.

And true enough there was USPS and other cheaper carriers but they hand off the package to a 'local' postal/delivery service, and that seems to be where the confusion and problems stem from.
All ability to track the package, in near real time, is severed at that point of hand off.

And then there is the whole subject of collecting on insurance when the package is 'lost'.

It didn't paint a pretty picture and certainly not one I wanted to trust.

JJ


----------



## RudeWolf

Did some @groovyd posts just got lost?

Unfortunately this is a major screwup for national mail/customs and I feel bad about @groovyd , because I don't feel like we've done the best we could as a company to help him.

Here's what we could have done better - watched closely all incoming shipments via tracking and detected the customs holdup in a more timely matter. Currently we don't have a system that knows everything that's on our way to us, which is why we're temporarily closing the overseas individual calibration service. Should anyone still be interested in using it, please contact our support.

As for the snail mail - before @groovyd contacted us, we had no info delivered to us regarding the shipment. That's why we couldn't engage with our customs broker faster. Turns out the customs fee we paid was for another shipment, so we missed the window to recover @groovyd 's cans.

If @groovyd is still interested in getting his cans calibrated, we offer to do a FedEX shipping on our expense with free calibration. Should take about a week grand total.


----------



## MattTCG (May 16, 2017)

RudeWolf said:


> Did some @groovyd posts just got lost?
> 
> Unfortunately this is a major screw-up for national mail/customs and I feel bad about @groovyd , because I don't feel like we've done the best we could as a company to help him.
> 
> ...



I'm not sure what happened to @groovyd post either but it looks like it was removed but I won't speculate any further, for now. Let's be honest here. You guys screwed up and badly. How many posts has groovy made here regarding this package to you for getting his headphones? More than a few. Everyone who follows this thread knew it was being shipped and when you didn't collect it, he posted WITH SCREENSHOTS when the package wasn't received when attempted to be delivered...more than once.

And then you complained about having to pay the customs on his package, citing this as the reason why you'd no longer be doing overseas calibration. Now it seems that it wasn't even HIS package that needed customs money. Do you guys even know what you're paying for with customs on these packages. It would seem the answer is obvious.

If it seem that I'm being a little harsh, good. It's deserved truthfully. My advice...when you screw up, and clearly you did, don't dance around and hem and haw about it. Just say we screwed and badly. Then correct the problems that led to your mistakes. Also, don't think that offering to pay shipping and free calibration makes up for your mistake. You SHOULD offer that due to the mistakes that you've made. If I were groovy, given your track record here with him, I'd suggest saying "no thanks." This guy sent you THOUSANDS dollars worth of headphones, remember and appreciate that. At no time did you seem all that concerned about him or his investment in headphones that he sent to you and trusted you with. Imagine for just a minute that it was YOUR package worth thousands of dollars and how you'd feel. Pause for reflection here. 

Lastly, don't disrespect your customers or the community here if you'd like to continue to be in our favor. The tide can shift quickly, just ask Hifiman.


----------



## groovyd

I appreciate the offer for a second shot at calibration and if I ever get my headphones back I will give you guys the chance to make it right.  Mistakes happen, and while I am a bit disappointed in how it was handled ultimately I would like to get these calibrated.  I've waited nearly 2 months now so what's another couple weeks to get the job done and allow Sonarworks to make right on their mistake.  Let's just hope the follow-up service is a better experience then the first.


----------



## RudeWolf

MattTCG said:


> It's deserved truthfully.



Sure. We effed up. I just hope in the end @groovyd ends up being happy. After all he'll have the biggest custom calibrated can collection in the world.

In other news - we just updated the individual calibration comms flow. Tracking now is compulsory and our support will require it to keep tabs on all shipments. Also every customer will have his/her personal support guy who will be the "owner" of the calibration project. All of our "support guys" are experienced audio engineers, so they'll be able to answer any audio related question you might have.


----------



## groovyd

At this point I am just hoping to see them again and that nothing was lost or damaged in the process... am glad though to see a better managed process evolving from this.  I really do think you guys would benefit greatly from a US calibration office.


----------



## mcphable

I reached out to Sonarworks yesterday with my issue and I have to say that they were very apologetic about the shipping issues and are covering the cost of initial shipping plus the cost of the next shipping via FedEx. They made it very clear that they messed up and could've handled it better on their end (since I notified them of the return and provided them with the tracking number back in March). They also advised that they're working on a process to eliminate missed deliveries and returned items like @groovyd and myself just had. And as @RudeWolf mentioned above, they're doing exactly what needs to be done to get a bulletproof process in place for future business. These are characteristics of a company worth doing business with.

As soon as the shipping issues are sured up, I'll definitely be sending in my Oppo PM-3's to get calibrated.


----------



## James-uk

I'm currently using the trial with the HD800S and I am blown away with the improvement. I use the HD800 curve and dilute it slightly using the wet/dry tab to about 85%, my logic here is that the small difference between the 800/800S should mean that this is close enough. I hope a 800S file is released but I won't hold my breath. 
When I get chance I'm going to try it with my oppo pm3s and HD650.
One thing for sure is I will be purchasing a license key, it's made the biggest improvement in sound quality over anything else I've purchased.


----------



## dobigstuff

I am using the Ref 3 Headphone Plugin with JRiver.  I use the HD 700 Average and finally settled on the Custom Curve with no Bass Boost with 2dB of Tilt.  Once the tracking issues get resolved I want to send my HD 700 for Calibration.


----------



## groovyd

Is Sonarworks still in business?  Today I am getting alternate webpages at their url or someone has stolen their domain?


----------



## phoenixdogfan

groovyd said:


> Is Sonarworks still in business?  Today I am getting alternate webpages at their url or someone has stolen their domain?


Just got an email from them announcing 28 new headphone profiles, so yeah.


----------



## 514077

phoenixdogfan said:


> Just got an email from them announcing 28 new headphone profiles, so yeah.


----------



## groovyd

ok i see they are back online but with a different homepage.  must have hit it right when they were switching over.  i downloaded their latest plugins and systemwide but i don't see the added headphone profiles.  What is the right way to 'upgrade' the plugins and systemwide to assure I am actually using the latest stuff? I'm on a Mac.

I never got the email... shouldn't I get one also?


----------



## MattTCG

Please post the new upcoming headphone profiles!! I didn't get the email.


----------



## kundica

MattTCG said:


> Please post the new upcoming headphone profiles!! I didn't get the email.


This is what is says to get them:

To get the new profiles press on the SW logo on the upper left side of the plug-in, then press "Add new product license" and enter your existing key + email address.

Once you do that, the headphone profiles will be downloaded automatically to your "Sonarworks Projects" folder, located under Documents on Windows and in your user folder on Mac.


----------



## groovyd

kundica said:


> This is what is says to get them:
> 
> To get the new profiles press on the SW logo on the upper left side of the plug-in, then press "Add new product license" and enter your existing key + email address.
> 
> Once you do that, the headphone profiles will be downloaded automatically to your "Sonarworks Projects" folder, located under Documents on Windows and in your user folder on Mac.



got em, thanks... they really need to add a simple auto-update feature to systemwide that updates all plugins, calibration files and itself .


----------



## groovyd

here's some interesting competition and with many more calibrated cans...

http://www.toneboosters.com/tb-morphit/#more-2401


----------



## groovyd

Slowly on it's way still...


----------



## groovyd

currently evaluating menuBus (https://www.menubus.audio) as a systemwide replacement with greater flexibility in being able to add any plugins to the chain and store them as presets using any hotkeys... mac only though. so far so good.


----------



## MattTCG (May 24, 2017)

I'm picturing your box full of expensive headphones on an old fishing boat. One that they have to hit the motor with a hammer to get it to crank...lot's of black smoke pouring from the spout. Traveling at top speed across the ocean...7 mph.


----------



## groovyd

MattTCG said:


> I'm picturing your box full of expensive headphones on an old fishing boat. One that they have to hit the motor with a hammer to get it to crack...lot's of black smoke pouring from the spout. Traveling at top speed across the ocean...7 mph.



lol, yeah me too  just hoping i do someday receive them and they are not all destroyed.


----------



## phoenixdogfan

groovyd said:


> lol, yeah me too  just hoping i do someday receive them and they are not all destroyed.


And after all this grief, they're coming back with no measurements, and no custom EQ curves at all.


----------



## coolkwc (May 25, 2017)

Just bought the reference 3 headphone plugin and systemwide, now both on spring sales with -40% off, bundled together got further €-20 reduction. Been waiting for this sales after i missed that last year November.











Awesome piece of software, never ever able to tune to this point by using APO EQ before. My ATH-M50x just sound lovely in mid and treble after profile applied. The harsh treble gone and mid more pronounce.
Really hope they can release the plugin for android system.


----------



## groovyd (May 26, 2017)

lookie what the post man had for me today  package was never even opened and indeed passed customs in Riga on the day it was claimed in tracking only a week after I shipped it. It is clear this was not at all the post office's fault and the simple truth is no one at Sonarworks ever accepted the delivery.  Apparently returning a package marked as undeliverable cost another $20.18 bringing my total cost so far to $102.33 and 2 months without headphones.  

Opened the package and everything was still sealed and in perfect condition thank god!  Give me a few days to enjoy them again before putting them back on the boat 

Please @RudeWolf pm me exact details regarding how to use whatever preferred courier you use so I can get these finally calibrated.


----------



## groovyd

groovyd said:


> currently evaluating menuBus (https://www.menubus.audio) as a systemwide replacement with greater flexibility in being able to add any plugins to the chain and store them as presets using any hotkeys... mac only though. so far so good.



For those of you looking for a budget version of what systemwide offers my evaluation of menuBus so far has been without issue.  It 'just works' and supports configuring any combination of plug-ins in the chain.  If you don't need all the bells and whistles of keyboard shortcuts and the tons of settings the 'complete' version offers there is a 'lite' version (https://www.menubus.audio/products) for only $10 but I think that deal is going away soon.  The thing I like most besides having keyboard shortcuts for each of my headphones and speakers is how robust it is regarding syncing with the DAC even through system sleeps, something Systemwide has trouble with. Anyway, if your a Mac user this is a program you should definitely have in your toolbox, give it a try.


----------



## 514077

I like the idea of shortcut keys.  Now, if they'd come out with a Windows version, I'd jump on it.


----------



## groovyd

True, that is a big advantage of Systemwide...  I own both now so I have all the tools in the toolbox I should ever need but for $10 and the added flexibility of accepting any plug-in across all system audio is a no brainer.


----------



## groovyd

Anyone looking for a high quality linear phase band EQ for free I can also recommend Marvel GEQ plug-in.  I only wish systemwide or the sonarworks plug-ins would allow you to specify a truely custom target curve for EQ instead of just allowing a bass and treble tilts.  Here's to hoping they add that in V4 so I can get rid of the extra EQ and reduce the total latency somewhat.


----------



## groovyd

DHL came and picked up the headphones for another shot at calibration...


----------



## 514077

groovyd said:


> DHL came and picked up the headphones for another shot at calibration...


After what you went through, you're braver than I, Gungadin.


----------



## Jokanok

I am playing around with Sonarworks headphone plugin together  with my DT880pro cans (average profile). I am much impressed by the results. 
However I regret that there is no neutral sounding crossfeed simulation included in Reference 3. 
Did any of you use the Sonarworks plugin simutaneously with the Redline Monitor plugin? 
For example in this way: Stereo Bus->VST Host->Redline Monitor->Sonarworks Reference 3->DAC/AMP->Cans. 
Looking forward to other head-fiers experience with this configuration.


----------



## phoenixdogfan

Jokanok said:


> I am playing around with Sonarworks headphone plugin together  with my DT880pro cans (average profile). I am much impressed by the results.
> However I regret that there is no neutral sounding crossfeed simulation included in Reference 3.
> Did any of you use the Sonarworks plugin simutaneously with the Redline Monitor plugin?
> For example in this way: Stereo Bus->VST Host->Redline Monitor->Sonarworks Reference 3->DAC/AMP->Cans.
> Looking forward to other head-fiers experience with this configuration.


Try OOYH instead.


----------



## groovyd

It would be great if their plugin threw in a few 'standard' effects like crossfeed and true custom eq so it is really a one-stop-shop.


----------



## groovyd

DHL tracking...

http://www.dhl.com/en/express/tracking.html?AWB=9388832176&brand=DHL


----------



## groovyd

phoenixdogfan said:


> Try OOYH instead.



wow... quite pricey and for only one 'speaker' setup. seems more of a reverb effect simulating specific room reflections rather then generic crossfeed.


----------



## phoenixdogfan

groovyd said:


> wow... quite pricey and for only one 'speaker' setup. seems more of a reverb effect simulating specific room reflections rather then generic crossfeed.


The trial version is absolutely free, it has no time limit, lets you listen to any one preset for 30 secs b/f you have to switch to another one.  And it's not just "room reverb", it's the entire speaker setup in the reverberant room as heard at the ear canal of whoever is taking the measurement.  If  you find a good match on any of these measurements, I bet you will agree it blows any crossfeed out of the water.


----------



## Jokanok

phoenixdogfan said:


> Try OOYH instead.


Thanks for your suggestion. I looked into it. I am searching for a good crossfeed with as less as possible impact on frequency range. That is the reason I am more inclined towards Redline Monitor. 
Anyone tried Redline Monitor in conjunctions with Reference 3?


----------



## groovyd (Jun 6, 2017)

phoenixdogfan said:


> The trial version is absolutely free, it has no time limit, lets you listen to any one preset for 30 secs b/f you have to switch to another one.  And it's not just "room reverb", it's the entire speaker setup in the reverberant room as heard at the ear canal of whoever is taking the measurement.  If  you find a good match on any of these measurements, I bet you will agree it blows any crossfeed out of the water.



Doesn't sound like the free version is very useful besides a quick demo.  My point regarding reverb is it isn't really 'crossfeed' effect but a room simulator which colors the sound much more then simple crossfeed does, delivering a fraction of the left and right channels to each other with a very short delay.

As Jokanok implies, and I would agree that someone looking for crossfeed is looking for something a bit lower impact and certainly less pricey.


----------



## groovyd

Tracking is saying 'returned to shipper' and still sitting in Cincinnati??!! Really, how hard does this need to be?


----------



## RudeWolf

Have you phoned DHL on why they decided to turn around the shipment? There's a good chance they didn't like that you filled both "Permanent" and "Repair/Return" in "Type of Export", because they're mutually exclusive.


----------



## groovyd

RudeWolf said:


> Have you phoned DHL on why they decided to turn around the shipment? There's a good chance they didn't like that you filled both "Permanent" and "Repair/Return" in "Type of Export", because they're mutually exclusive.



I didn't fill in the Permanent the dhl guy did when he picked up the box.  They said something about being over $2500 in value requires special paperwork and some EIN codes and some company tax id or something i didn't quite understand any of what she said.  I told the guy when they came to pick it up i had no clue what was needed for it and he checked that box and said it was ok.  I would have expected all of this needed information to have been given directly to dhl before they even came to pickup the box.


----------



## groovyd

Received the box back this time they opened it and repacked it and threw it around a bunch.  the post office was much more careful.  paper stuck to the top has a check box besides 'Missing ITN# or SED Filing' whatever that means and the lady on the phone said something about it needing also a business tax id since it was over $2500 in value.  I don't have any of this information and have no idea what to do.


----------



## Jokanok

Jokanok said:


> Thanks for your suggestion. I looked into it. I am searching for a good crossfeed with as less as possible impact on frequency range. That is the reason I am more inclined towards Redline Monitor.
> Anyone tried Redline Monitor in conjunctions with Reference 3?


Follow-up of my last post. 
I managed to use several crossfeed plugins in conjuction with Sonarworks Reference 3 using VstHost by Hermann Seib (thanks Hermann!!)
I compared Case's Meier Crossfeed (download page: https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,108412.new.html#new) with Redline Monitor, TB Isone, Head-fit and VnoPhone. By far I like Case's Meier Crossfeed the most. FYI my setting is at 25.
I am not into room simulation. I just am looking for a good non obtrusive crossfeed plugin to compensate for "in your head"-effect of headphones.


----------



## groovyd

Ok so I called the census bureau to get the Schedule B number for exporting headphones and here it is...

Schedule B - 8518.30.2000 - Headphones or microphones - Quantity is number of headphones your sending

Then I called the EEI rules and regulations dept and they told me instead of filing for an ITN or EIN or whatever they call it for export that since they will be repaired and returned within a month I can instead put the following exemption code on the airway bill...

No EEI - 30.37Q

This just means it isn't really being exported and so none of the taxing and rules really apply.

So there it is, anyone that needs to send headphones to Latvia for calibration and wants to declare their true value for insurance purposes or incase they get lost or damaged and the value is over $2500 then you need to write these codes on your package airway bill.  The schedule B number tells them they are headphones (same thing the list of contents could have told them) and the EEI exemption tells them they aren't really being exported.


----------



## groovyd

Jokanok said:


> Follow-up of my last post.
> I managed to use several crossfeed plugins in conjuction with Sonarworks Reference 3 using VstHost by Hermann Seib (thanks Hermann!!)
> I compared Case's Meier Crossfeed (download page: https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,108412.new.html#new) with Redline Monitor, TB Isone, Head-fit and VnoPhone. By far I like Case's Meier Crossfeed the most. FYI my setting is at 25.
> I am not into room simulation. I just am looking for a good non obtrusive crossfeed plugin to compensate for "in your head"-effect of headphones.



bummer that is a dll only for windows, foobar?  I use a mac but it sounds perfect...


----------



## groovyd

ok here we go for the 3rd time...

http://www.dhl.com/en/express/tracking.html?AWB=9388832154&brand=DHL


----------



## groovyd

At least this time the package has reached customs in Riga, Latvia... and now it just needs Sonarworks import broker to go get it


----------



## DivineCurrent

groovyd said:


> At least this time the package has reached customs in Riga, Latvia... and now it just needs Sonarworks import broker to go get it



It got to Latvia in 2 days? That's really fast!

Has anyone here tried the new calibration for the DT1990? I may pick up a pair, but if the headphone has too much distortion I don't think it will be worth it.


----------



## groovyd

achelgeson said:


> It got to Latvia in 2 days? That's really fast!
> 
> Has anyone here tried the new calibration for the DT1990? I may pick up a pair, but if the headphone has too much distortion I don't think it will be worth it.



my experience with the calibration averages is that they help overcome the big issues with different models of headphone but without custom calibration they can create other more minor issues.  I think custom calibration is the only way to really get a great result.


----------



## DivineCurrent

groovyd said:


> my experience with the calibration averages is that they help overcome the big issues with different models of headphone but without custom calibration they can create other more minor issues.  I think custom calibration is the only way to really get a great result.



I definitely agree. I have a pre-callibrated pair of HD650s from their store, compared to the average profile the custom just blows it away. I'm also using the Koss PortaPro, and even the $30 thing gets transformed by the average profile. But for mid-fi and summit-fi headphones, it's probably worth the extra effort and money to get a custom profile.


----------



## groovyd (Jun 16, 2017)

And finally 3rd time is a charm the headphones have cleared customs in Riga...

Notification for shipment event group "Customs clearance" for 16 Jun 17.

AWB Number: 9388832154
Pickup Date: 2017-06-12 18:22:00
Estimated Delivery Date: 2017-06-16 23:59:00
Ship From: Ship To:
DECATUR, 30030
US RIGA, 1006
LV
EVENT CATEGORY
*16 Jun 17 10:30 AM - Customs status updated - RIGA,LATVIA*

*Further Details -* Shipment has been given a release by Customs.
*Next Steps -* Unless there is an adhoc exam or a stop by another regulatory authority the shipment will proceed to delivery

... and DELIVERED 

EVENT CATEGORY
*16 Jun 17 1:02 PM - Shipment delivered - RIGA,LATVIA*

*Signed By -* FREIBERGA


----------



## 514077

groovyd said:


> And finally 3rd time is a charm the headphones have cleared customs in Riga...
> 
> Notification for shipment event group "Customs clearance" for 16 Jun 17.
> 
> ...


Oh thank Bog!  Can't wait to get impressions with your Xs.


----------



## groovyd

UELong said:


> Oh thank Bog!  Can't wait to get impressions with your Xs.



yeah i am super excited... hopefully the long wait and the loads of hassles will be worth it in the end... fingers crossed


----------



## canali

Thinking of sending in my Sony Z1R....might also sell my senn 650 for a sonarworks calibrated 650 or 600...when I listen to my 650s after the sonys they (senn) sound so veiled and 'mehish'


----------



## 514077

canali said:


> Thinking of sending in my Sony Z1R....might also sell my senn 650 for a sonarworks calibrated 650 or 600...when I listen to my 650s after the sonys they (senn) sound so veiled and 'mehish'


How do you like the Z1R?  I only ask, here, because I read Tyll's review, and he wasn't thrilled with the sound.  I usually find myself differing from his tastes, somewhat.


----------



## Bern2

canali said:


> Thinking of sending in my Sony Z1R....might also sell my senn 650 for a sonarworks calibrated 650 or 600...when I listen to my 650s after the sonys they (senn) sound so veiled and 'mehish'



I am also thinking of doing this.  (Sending in the Z1R's...might also include the Nighthawks).  

Bern


----------



## canali (Jun 17, 2017)

I


UELong said:


> How do you like the Z1R?  I only ask, here, because I read Tyll's review, and he wasn't thrilled with the sound.  I usually find myself differing from his tastes, somewhat.



hi there
1/i/m still breaking them in.
2/still trying to understand fully how the calibration process works and makes the sound different...and do you have other EQ signatures
you can try too once you get them back...so i apologize if i'm a bit premature in suggesting sending them off.
plus in reading the last few pages of people's frustrations in tracking issues when sending them off to sonarworks etc...not a good thing....however, it's nice to see Sonarworks is trying to implement some tracking program and a faster return/processing time...win win for both sides.

*so a question to Sonarworks*: and i know this is personal
1/what sets of cans, in the ops of your techs, are the best bangs for the buck, regardless of price (when calibrated)
2/and what are the best set of cans calibrated you've tested for under 1k?

am thinking of buying a set of calibrated cans from you....i love balance, but also detail, and fab bass slam (not overblown bass, however that overshadows everything else).
have read from some who feel that the senn hd600s are a ''better'' model for such (less veil) than the 650s...?


----------



## groovyd

canali said:


> Thinking of sending in my Sony Z1R....might also sell my senn 650 for a sonarworks calibrated 650 or 600...when I listen to my 650s after the sonys they (senn) sound so veiled and 'mehish'





Bern2 said:


> I am also thinking of doing this.  (Sending in the Z1R's...might also include the Nighthawks).
> 
> Bern



Anyone sending in cans just to make very well sure you use a carrier they 'work with' like DHL or FedEx and be sure to put the above customs and declaration digits on the invoice, package, and waybill all three.  Ideally Sonarworks will organize the process from end to end.  The post office while being the best deal seems to have trouble actually 'delivering' them to the final address even after they clear customs.  To be honest I think I would just buy the pre-calibrated headphones directly from them instead of sending any in and the 650 is probably an incredible can after custom calibration.


----------



## Bern2

groovyd said:


> Anyone sending in cans just to make very well sure you use a carrier they 'work with' like DHL or FedEx and be sure to put the above customs and declaration digits on the invoice, package, and waybill all three.  Ideally Sonarworks will organize the process from end to end.  The post office while being the best deal seems to have trouble actually 'delivering' them to the final address even after they clear customs.  To be honest I think I would just buy the pre-calibrated headphones directly from them instead of sending any in and the 650 is probably an incredible can after custom calibration.


Thx for the info.  I would definitely use DHL/FedEx.  Absolutely love the results with the HD800 and I'm using the generic cal file.


----------



## leeperry

groovyd said:


> To be honest I think I would just buy the pre-calibrated headphones directly from them instead of sending any in and the 650 is probably an incredible can after custom calibration.



They would calibrate it out of the box, which might be a different story from how it'll sound after a few hundred hours but yeah I guess sending them phones is easier if you're in the EU.


----------



## groovyd

Bern2 said:


> Thx for the info.  I would definitely use DHL/FedEx.  Absolutely love the results with the HD800 and I'm using the generic cal file.



thing is to their credit the post office absolutely did get them there in 5 days and through customs without an issue it was in the actual delivery process where it somehow got stuck.  really not sure exactly how that happened still but I am guessing the given address is not an actual office where people open the door when knocked or can sign for deliveries and somehow they missed all the notifications to go to the post office to actually pick it up. just a guess, the reality could have been something totally different and my situation might have been a very abnormal exception.


----------



## Gowry

Are there any plans of doing a profile for the pre-2016 Audeze LCD-XC?


----------



## RudeWolf

canali said:


> *so a question to Sonarworks*: and i know this is personal
> 1/what sets of cans, in the ops of your techs, are the best bangs for the buck, regardless of price (when calibrated)
> 2/and what are the best set of cans calibrated you've tested for under 1k?



1) Closed - Oppo PM-3, Open - HD650/600
2) Same as the above

To elaborate - HD650/600 are a pleasant anomaly in the current headphone ecosystem as they don't have the nasty upper mid suckout and treble peak 90% of other headphones have. Uncalibrated they walk over the competition no questions asked. When calibrated Audeze LCD-2 will have more bass extension and less THD and HD800 will have a better soundstaging. As you well know - HD800 uncalibrated has an ungodly set of treble problems.



Bern2 said:


> Sending in the Z1R's



Cool! I'd like to see what's all the fuss about!


----------



## canali (Jun 21, 2017)

RudeWolf said:


> 1) Closed - Oppo PM-3, Open - HD650/600
> 2) Same as the above
> 
> To elaborate - HD650/600 are a pleasant anomaly in the current headphone ecosystem as they don't have the nasty upper mid suckout and treble peak 90% of other headphones have. Uncalibrated they walk over the competition no questions asked. When calibrated Audeze LCD-2 will have more bass extension and less THD and HD800 will have a better soundstaging. As you well know - HD800 uncalibrated has an ungodly set of treble problems.
> ...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------

thanks..might send in my sony mdr7520 (my portable cans) as a starter.
or buy some calibrated  sen 650s...but admittedly the detail and insight from the sony z1r is considerably more than with the 650s....at least to my 'less than golden' ears during the brief comparison i had them for.

also, your reply on your choices of bang/buck ratio for open/closed cans is appreciated.

 but a question on the more pricey cans such as the audeze lcd3 (let alone new lcd4) or hifiman 1000 v1 or v2 or mr speakers ether flow etc:
is the reason you don't sell them calibrated on your site is that perhaps you don't feel they hold their weight against the senn 650s per price increase to performance? of is it due to other factors?


----------



## manukmanohar

canali said:


> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> thanks..might send in my sony mdr7520 (my portable cans)
> ..so your reply on your choices of bang/buck ratio for open/closed cans is appreciated.
> ...



I'd also be interested in knowing. However, their decision to not stock costlier models could simply be because of the liquidity concerns and probably the need to partner directly with manufacturers (HiFi Man doesn't honor warranty of their cans, if purchased from unauthorized dealers).

I'd be really interested to know, how a calibrated HD600 compares to a calibrated HD650? Does the standard recommendation, still stand (For example, as per some comparisons, Sennheiser 'Veil' (which itself may be debatable) being more prominent in HD650, HD600 being 'faster', more bass 'impact', but less extended) or are there no significant differences once calibrated. (in which case, HD600 becomes a stunning deal, at that price)


----------



## groovyd

good chance from here on if I ever purchase a new desktop headphone again, open or closed it will be pre-calibrated.  The 650 sounds tempting.  Will be curious to hear how the 4 pair i sent it each respond to the calibration and what their strong points and weaknesses remain after.  In theory they should sound nearly the same right with only soundstage being unaccounted for.


----------



## canali

groovyd said:


> good chance from here on if I ever purchase a new desktop headphone again, open or closed it will be pre-calibrated.  The 650 sounds tempting.  Will be curious to hear how the 4 pair i sent it each respond to the calibration and what their strong points and weaknesses remain after.  In theory they should sound nearly the same right with only soundstage being unaccounted for.



sorry if i missed it, but what cans did you send in?
i'm considering my sony 7520, buying new from them  650 calibrated
maybe send in (if i dont' sell them) sony z1r

i just listen more and more to my near fields (focal alpha 50s) at my desk...or prefer iems
out and about (FLS 8S/mojo ipod)


----------



## groovyd

canali said:


> sorry if i missed it, but what cans did you send in?
> i'm considering my sony 7520, buying new from them  650 calibrated
> maybe send in (if i dont' sell them) sony z1r
> 
> ...



- modded T1s with custom cable
- modded MHP1000s with custom cable and custom pads
- LCD-X (v1) with custom cable and carbon fiber headband
- LCD-XC (v1) with custom cable and carbon fiber headband


----------



## dmbr (Jun 26, 2017)

I don't think SW is working properly for me...either it's malfunctioning, I have the settings misconfigured, or this is simply a poor product.

Basically, when enabled, the VST produces a "delay effect"--not latency, but an echo-like delay effect as one might use as a DSP (very short, maybe 50 to 100ms). It doesn't sound distorted or anything, but it's certainly not just EQing.

I have tried adjusting every setting I see available with no luck.

Using Sennheiser HD-800 with JRiver.

Please help!


----------



## RudeWolf

canali said:


> is the reason you don't sell them calibrated on your site is that perhaps you don't feel they hold their weight against the senn 650s per price increase to performance? of is it due to other factors?



Having expensive cans in stock is well... expensive. We're not big enough to freeze these kinds of assets, until someone buys them. The deal with HD650 is that going higher will undeniably get you improvement in some areas, but you will pay for it in terms of tonality.



dmbr said:


> Please help!



Have you bugged our support about this?


----------



## groovyd

dmbr said:


> I don't think SW is working properly for me...either it's malfunctioning, I have the settings misconfigured, or this is simply a poor product.
> 
> Basically, when enabled, the VST produces a "delay effect"--not latency, but an echo-like delay effect as one might use as a DSP (very short, maybe 50 to 100ms). It doesn't sound distorted or anything, but it's certainly not just EQing.
> 
> ...



sounds like duplicate processing of the effect chain or some sort of dry mix issue.  I am using JRiver and VST plugin with no issue whatsoever.  Mac?  Are you also running systemwide or some other effect host?  screenshot of your DSP effects window and it's settings in JRiver would help.


----------



## Pokemonn (Jul 2, 2017)

@RudeWolf I just tried Sonorworks Systemwide with my HD650(w B&K 1974 curve).with Luxman rig, i am completly stunned! INSANLY SOUND GOOD! deeply satisfied.
so since i am a Stax mania. Would you add some Stax profiles to your software in near future? Please please please...i have heard that some major famouse studio use Stax SR-207 for thier studio monitor.
Thank you very much Rudolf!


----------



## groovyd

Pokemonn said:


> @RudeWolf I just tried Sonorworks Systemwide with my HD650(w B&K 1974 curve). i am completly stunned! INSANLY SOUND GOOD! deeply satisfied.
> so since i am a Stax mania. Would you add some Stax profiles to your software in near future? Please please please...i have heard that some major famouse studio use Stax SR-207 for thier studio monitor.
> Thank you very much Rudolf!


I also enjoy the B&K profile but I find you need to ramp back in the 3db from 2k to the top where it dips below 0
.


----------



## Whitetriton

I've owned a Sonarworks headphone license for a while but just got a pair of Oppo PM-3 headphones the other day.  Listening to music with Sonarworks allowed me to understand lyrics that I previously hadn't been able to.  I really enjoyed that.  Definite thumbs up for the PM-3.


----------



## Bern2

dmbr said:


> I don't think SW is working properly for me...either it's malfunctioning, I have the settings misconfigured, or this is simply a poor product.
> 
> Basically, when enabled, the VST produces a "delay effect"--not latency, but an echo-like delay effect as one might use as a DSP (very short, maybe 50 to 100ms). It doesn't sound distorted or anything, but it's certainly not just EQing.
> 
> ...



Hope you get in figured out.  Sonarworks saved the 800's for me.  Using their set-up from the early pages here (VB Audio and Pedalboard) with iTunes.


----------



## Roll

This is meant for audiophiles, whatever that means. 

This is from Karlis who works over at Sonarworks: True-Fi is basically systemwide for audiophiles, the aim is to test new audience to understand their views of Sonarworks calibration technology.

50 day full access.

https://www.sonarworks.com/truefi#TF-demo


----------



## groovyd

Roll said:


> This is meant for audiophiles, whatever that means.
> 
> This is from Karlis who works over at Sonarworks: True-Fi is basically systemwide for audiophiles, the aim is to test new audience to understand their views of Sonarworks calibration technology.
> 
> ...



I think True-Fi is just where they pre-process the music using their plugin for you and deliver that so you don't need to hassle with the plugin and systemwide or a plugin host? It would be the same as having those songs in your library and using systemwide on them?


----------



## canali

groovyd said:


> I think True-Fi is just where they pre-process the music using their plugin for you and deliver that so you don't need to hassle with the plugin and systemwide or a plugin host? It would be the same as having those songs in your library and using systemwide on them?



i'm confused over exactly what it is, too....


----------



## Roll

I had to remove my Sonarworks plugin and systemwide software to have True-Fi running - but that could be me with Windows 10 beta OS. I also had to check the volume on my Geek out dac/amp thing. It seem when I loaded True-Fi, it lower the Geek Out software volume..

So what is True-Fi?

Simple combine version of REFERENCE 3 PLUGIN and REFERENCE 3 SYSTEMWIDE. 

There is no Dry/Wet control, Mono Monitoring, and Filter modes

It is a great product for the general public. I miss the dry/wet and I do use the mono thing.

Also, I do not have playback artifacts with True-Fi ..and pops and ticks, from the get go. Just need to play with the volume as in my dac

When I initially install the plugin and systemwide, I always have to play around to get it running smoothly. And than when I receive another OS beta update, something might change. Still worth it for the extra functions...


----------



## groovyd (Jul 1, 2017)

no artifacts from systemwide for me... i don't use dry wet or mono and i could do without the filter modes.  does this somehow help me or am I just as well off with what i got?  i had the impression they were basically delivering pre-adjusted tracks for whatever headphones you have.  more like a music store customized to your headphones.  i still think that might be a great idea if not.  purchase songs from them and you get to download them pre-equalized for whatever headphones you have.  this way you could use it in DAPs.

i think a killer feature of their plugins would be to be able to run them in batch mode across a folder of music files and get the converted files out so you can take them on the go. like run it across your entire library and put the results into a folder named for whatever the headphones are.


----------



## Roll

groovyd said:


> no artifacts from systemwide for me... i don't use dry wet or mono and i could do without the filter modes.  does this somehow help me or am I just as well off with what i got?  i had the impression they were basically delivering pre-adjusted tracks for whatever headphones you have.  more like a music store customized to your headphones.  i still think that might be a great idea if not.  purchase songs from them and you get to download them pre-equalized for whatever headphones you have.  this way you could use it in DAPs.
> 
> i think a killer feature of their plugins would be to be able to run them in batch mode across a folder of music files and get the converted files out so you can take them on the go. like run it across your entire library and put the results into a folder named for whatever the headphones are.



Actually it will not help anyone that has the software. I

It is more of a trial that is easier to install at the get-go. Also, at least, my code for True-Fi is for 50 days which gives one more time to play with. I am currently playing with True-Fi with the DT1990. I just notice that it has the plugin for both pads. I can not remember if it did on REFERENCE 3 PLUGIN. The Dry/wet helps me to dial down the setting for my T1, 2nd version. For me, 70%, is enough.

There is also an Android beta app, Soundigo Music APP Beta
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.soundigo&hl=en

Only played with her in the beginning when she just came out. At that time, it did not play the higher bit flac


----------



## groovyd

Roll said:


> Actually it will not help anyone that has the software. I
> 
> It is more of a trial that is easier to install at the get-go. Also, at least, my code for True-Fi is for 50 days which gives one more time to play with. I am currently playing with True-Fi with the DT1990. I just notice that it has the plugin for both pads. I can not remember if it did on REFERENCE 3 PLUGIN. The Dry/wet helps me to dial down the setting for my T1, 2nd version. For me, 70%, is enough.
> 
> ...



were you using the calibration average for T1 or a custom calibration?  Guessing a custom one you wouldn't need to dial it back wet/dry at all


----------



## Roll

Using the average calibration at 70% for the T1, 2nd version. At 100%, I was missing the upper spark.


----------



## groovyd (Jul 3, 2017)

Roll said:


> Using the average calibration at 70% for the T1, 2nd version. At 100%, I was missing the upper spark.



Yeah I do like a little of the T1 sparkle sometimes.  I can see why you would pull it back a bit.  Should be getting my T1 back soon and will see how it sounds with custom calibration.


----------



## dmbr

groovyd said:


> sounds like duplicate processing of the effect chain or some sort of dry mix issue.  I am using JRiver and VST plugin with no issue whatsoever.  Mac?  Are you also running systemwide or some other effect host?  screenshot of your DSP effects window and it's settings in JRiver would help.


Thanks for the reply!

I'm using kind Wiondows 7 64-bit with JRiver's built-in VST host. JRiver's set to upmix my stereo FLAC's to 7.1, resample to 48Hz, then playback to Out of Your Head, a nice piece of surround sound virtualization software that other users have reported using with SW without issue. Here are screens of my settings:



 

 

 

 

I went ahead and tried out TB Morphit, a similar VST to SW (at least in what it aims to do), and it sounds great. Whatever problem SW is having, Morphit certainly doesn't share the issue. Still, I'd like to get SW working as it does seem much more powerful and I imagine could yield even better results.

Much appreciation for any insights.


----------



## johnjen

dmbr said:


> Thanks for the reply!
> 
> I'm using kind Wiondows 7 64-bit with JRiver's built-in VST host. JRiver's set to upmix my stereo FLAC's to 7.1, resample to 48Hz, then playback to Out of Your Head, a nice piece of surround sound virtualization software that other users have reported using with SW without issue. Here are screens of my settings:
> snip
> ...


I noticed that your wet/dry mix is set to not add any EQ.
Could that be the problem?


----------



## groovyd

it looks like you got way too much going on there to isolate the issue.  so you are simulating some 6 channel surround system but playing into headphones?  i see your dry/wet setting is 0% all dry so sonarworks shouldn't be contributing anything to the sound.  If disabling the sonarworks plugin fixes the issue leaving all else the same then i would say it is a bug in how sonarworks handles more then 2 channel audio.  personally i have no experience with such complex multi-channel setups but as an engineer i would say the key to problem solving is to one component at a time isolate the issue.  how about you try just a simple normal stereo signal with non of that other processing and just using sonarworks first.  then advance by adding one new plugin at a time.  

based on what you have provided though i would expect sonarworks to have an immediate answer.


----------



## dmbr

groovyd said:


> it looks like you got way too much going on there to isolate the issue.  so you are simulating some 6 channel surround system but playing into headphones?  i see your dry/wet setting is 0% all dry so sonarworks shouldn't be contributing anything to the sound.  If disabling the sonarworks plugin fixes the issue leaving all else the same then i would say it is a bug in how sonarworks handles more then 2 channel audio.  personally i have no experience with such complex multi-channel setups but as an engineer i would say the key to problem solving is to one component at a time isolate the issue.  how about you try just a simple normal stereo signal with non of that other processing and just using sonarworks first.  then advance by adding one new plugin at a time.
> 
> based on what you have provided though i would expect sonarworks to have an immediate answer.


I put the it to entirely dry for troubleshooting reasons--definitely should've noted that I had, as it's all the more confusing that the delay occurs when there should be no effect. 

I'll try seeing if it occurs with a stereo signal when I'm home. Thanks!


----------



## stuck limo (Jul 8, 2017)

Roll said:


> This is meant for audiophiles, whatever that means.
> 
> This is from Karlis who works over at Sonarworks: True-Fi is basically systemwide for audiophiles, the aim is to test new audience to understand their views of Sonarworks calibration technology.
> 
> ...



So I've been trying this on my m40x...impressions so far:

The flat (profile A) is terrible --- I was listening to Gorillaz and SO MUCH detail was just sucked out. The music sounds pretty dead and lifeless. I guess that's OK, if its primary purpose is to be used for mixing.
The B profile is much nicer, with some weight thrown into the vocals. The vocals are much richer, thicker, and weightier. However, still not as much detail as I'd like, but the detail is MUCH better than on A. Nice bass bump.
C Profile is way too trebly, thin, and ear piercing.

Overall....um, probably not worth the price they're asking. I'll probably just not use it.They also have limited options (no V-Moda, etc.). I will try it on my Koss Portapro and my Sennheiser 600 this weekend and maybe play around with some additional EQ tweaking.


----------



## groovyd

Looks like my last few posts regarding my calibration shipment have been removed.  I would appreciate a pm explaining when posts I make are quietly removed and why.  It is just the respectful thing to do.  

If anyone needs the required forms for importing your headphones after calibration I guess you should message me. Looks like the package has just been released by customs and I should get it tomorrow.


----------



## 514077

groovyd said:


> Looks like my last few posts regarding my calibration shipment have been removed.  I would appreciate a pm explaining when posts I make are quietly removed and why.  It is just the respectful thing to do.
> 
> If anyone needs the required forms for importing your headphones after calibration I guess you should message me. Looks like the package has just been released by customs and I should get it tomorrow.


Looking forward to LCD-X impressions of the calibration.  Sorry about your posts.  Wish I could say more...


----------



## groovyd

And after 3+ months in the mail they have finally arrived home  Just now i'm too scared to actually open the box


----------



## groovyd (Jul 12, 2017)

... and here they finally are all neatly packed with their 'sonarworks calibrated' stickers on the cables... now I just need to somehow find the files somewhere   Thank you very much to the entire team at Sonarworks for sticking through this and making good on it.  It was a rough journey but in the end you respected your word and earned my respect for it.

edited - to get your new files you must go into the headphone plugin (not systemwide but the real plugin in your DAW (JRiver)) and re-enter your license codes.  the calibration files are associated with your license and they will then be downloaded automatically to the same folder as the average calibration files live.  personally i would then create a subfolder something like 'Custom' and drag your custom calibration files into that.


----------



## RudeWolf

Glad to be of service! I can tell you that there was an audible "phew" in the office once we got the news that everything is back safely. I hope you like what we've achieved - you sent us four headphones, but in reality got back eight!

Try them out and report back!


----------



## groovyd (Jul 12, 2017)

They sound great... listening to the X now and it is night and day better.  In appreciation for all you guys have done for me I have placed an order for 2 pre-calibrated headphones off your store the HD650 and the ATH-M50x upon Elijah's good recommendation on those models. Hopefully this shipment will go smoother  Thanks again and to everyone at Sonarworks.  You guys do good work and we all have some things to learn sometimes. Experience is what teaches you.

Now we just gotta get systemwide to accept more then 3 presets and the ability to switch between them with hotkeys


----------



## groovyd

The X was always pretty close to perfect sounding to me but this has lifted it's small weaknesses up and put them squarely in perfect territory imho.  The T1 was always a bit harsh up high though I did enjoy the sparkle sometimes.  This has made them now useful as a daily driver much lighter on the neck then the LCD.  The XC is meant for work and it actually shocked me to see the correction on this one as it doesn't appear to have measured at the same response i was sent by Audeze when I bought them.  They do sound good after correction though and after turning the correction off they were hard to listen to again.  The MHP1000, well that was always a twisted profile boomy and erratic across the spectrum.  This has done about all that can be done to fix that but these are really only used at home to answer skype calls while muting out the speakers off my D100 and for that they are a bit gracious to have calibrated but to be honest without calibration they are severely disturbed headphones and so this has made them useful outside of skype.  It is really one of those things you get cause you like their amps not because they sound great and later you try to figure out how to live with them.  This certainly helps 

Can't wait to hear the recommended cans in the order and will be interesting to see if either of them push today's work horses back into the stable.


----------



## canali (Jul 13, 2017)

groovyd said:


> They sound great... listening to the X now and it is night and day better.  In appreciation for all you guys have done for me I have placed an order for 2 pre-calibrated headphones off your store the HD650 and the ATH-M50x upon Elijah's good recommendation on those models. Hopefully this shipment will go smoother  Thanks again and to everyone at Sonarworks.  You guys do good work and we all have some things to learn sometimes. Experience is what teaches you.
> 
> Now we just gotta get systemwide to accept more then 3 presets and the ability to switch between them with hotkeys



i'm also tempted to do this (buy a pair of calibrated 650s from sonarworks)
...wonder if that sennheiser 'veil' on the 650s would be removed some?

still considering sending in my Sony Z1Rs too...if i don't sell 'em first, that is....


----------



## groovyd

canali said:


> i'm also tempted to do this (buy a pair of calibrated 650s from sonarworks)
> ...wonder if that sennheiser 'veil' on the 650s would be removed some?
> 
> still considering sending in my Sony Z1Rs too...if i don't sell 'em first, that is....



Let's assume the 650 will sound great since that is apparently the headphone they recommend most for calibration.  Makes sense to send the Sony's in too if their sound is the only thing that disappoints you about them.  I think the reason I had so many shipping issues was the value of the package being over $2k caused some red flags and all the extra paperwork to be in order.


----------



## stuck limo

Has anyone tried the new Sonarworks Soundigo software for Android? I used it with my m40x and Senn 600 and really liked it. The "add new headphones request" option doesn't seem to work though (specifically want V-Moda M-100 and XS).


----------



## canali

groovyd said:


> Let's assume the 650 will sound great since that is apparently the headphone they recommend most for calibration.  Makes sense to send the Sony's in too if their sound is the only thing that disappoints you about them.  I think the reason I had so many shipping issues was the value of the package being over $2k caused some red flags and all the extra paperwork to be in order.


 
thanks!
however, imo when you put the senn 650 against my sony z1r that 'sennheiser veil' becomes readily apparent.
so am unsure if any calibration would remove this...might just sell 'em and seek a more resolving set of cans.


----------



## RudeWolf

Here's something we made just for listeners like you - https://www.sonarworks.com/truefi



 
So, it's FREE and there has to be a catch, right? Sure - the problem is that we can objectively infer a reference sound target for pro guys, but not so for listeners. So there are 4 choices and we want to see where you will gravitate to. Have a listen to you favourite tunes and switch around them to see what floats your boat. Then tell us what's your favourite in the poll.


----------



## stuck limo

RudeWolf said:


> Here's something we made just for listeners like you - https://www.sonarworks.com/truefi
> 
> 
> So, it's FREE and there has to be a catch, right? Sure - the problem is that we can objectively infer a reference sound target for pro guys, but not so for listeners. So there are 4 choices and we want to see where you will gravitate to. Have a listen to you favourite tunes and switch around them to see what floats your boat. Then tell us what's your favourite in the poll.



Are you still updating Soundigo? Are you taking requests for headphone profiles? Will there be a paid option at some point?


----------



## groovyd (Jul 19, 2017)

HD650 and M50 both arrived today, perfectly packaged thanks!  Right off the bat I can say the 650 with calibration is a serious reference headphone.  Not sure even the X is this flat (pre or post calibration).  Has a touch more top end sizzle and very well controlled bass, nothing sloppy here at all.  Ultra-light, my neck loves them. Soundstage I think the X gets the edge though and sheer earpad comfort discounting the weight the X also wins but for the weight these are throwing spades all over the place.  They will definitely get some head time when my neck tires of the X. 

HD 650 



LCD-X


----------



## groovyd

not a big fan of the Audio-Technica ATH-M50x comfort or sound-wise.  Build quality isn't all that either.  Definitely sound better after correction though but these are up for sale if anyone in the US wants a calibrated pair PM me.

ATH-M50x


----------



## Roll

stuck limo said:


> Are you still updating Soundigo? Are you taking requests for headphone profiles? Will there be a paid option at some point?



It was mention that -  the Soundigo beta app is coming along quite slowly and that they are implementing Spotify integration with the app, so one can listen to Spotify with the calibration.


----------



## Roll

groovyd said:


> HD650 and M50 both arrived today, perfectly packaged thanks!  Right off the bat I can say the 650 with calibration is a serious reference headphone.  Not sure even the X is this flat (pre or post calibration).  Has a touch more top end sizzle and very well controlled bass, nothing sloppy here at all.  Ultra-light, my neck loves them. Soundstage I think the X gets the edge though and sheer earpad comfort discounting the weight the X also wins but for the weight these are throwing spades all over the place.  They will definitely get some head time when my neck tires of the X.




Have you tried the 'Average Profile' verse your calibrated new HD650? Is there a hugh difference? And also with the T1 settings. Thanks


----------



## groovyd

Roll said:


> Have you tried the 'Average Profile' verse your calibrated new HD650? Is there a hugh difference? And also with the T1 settings. Thanks



Yes there is a significant difference.  Averages get you half way there, custom gets you all the way there.


----------



## GumbyDammit223

Giving the Reference 3 headphone plug-in another try after my first attempt in April not working.  Thanks to Matiss @ Sonarworks spending quite a bit of time with me yesterday and this morning, including a remote desktop session and some flakey behavior, I finally have it running through Foobar2k!  So far, color me impressed!  My HD700's no longer drill through my skull when playing some of my favorite songs by Mylène Farmer!  The weirdness I see when tweaking the plug-in settings is that there is a 30 second lag between setting change and audio change.  In additon, the VU meters are _extremely_ unresponsive to the playing music.  They seem to have something like a half-second response time.  Has anybody experienced similar problems?

It's true that I'm not going to be tweaking this thing all the time.  I want to set and forget it, but I'd still like to know why it's doing what it's doing!


----------



## groovyd

GumbyDammit223 said:


> Giving the Reference 3 headphone plug-in another try after my first attempt in April not working.  Thanks to Matiss @ Sonarworks spending quite a bit of time with me yesterday and this morning, including a remote desktop session and some flakey behavior, I finally have it running through Foobar2k!  So far, color me impressed!  My HD700's no longer drill through my skull when playing some of my favorite songs by Mylène Farmer!  The weirdness I see when tweaking the plug-in settings is that there is a 30 second lag between setting change and audio change.  In additon, the VU meters are _extremely_ unresponsive to the playing music.  They seem to have something like a half-second response time.  Has anybody experienced similar problems?
> 
> It's true that I'm not going to be tweaking this thing all the time.  I want to set and forget it, but I'd still like to know why it's doing what it's doing!



no meter lag or delayed settings changes for me on a mac.


----------



## GumbyDammit223

Turns out my 30 second lag was due to my setting Foobar's output buffer to max which is conveniently 30 seconds!  Minimizing it to 50ms definitely helps my A/B comparisons.  The VU meter sluggishness is still a grumble though.  I'm also noticing gray/red circles over both both sets of meters.  I'm assuming those are latching clipping indicators because I can click on them and turn them back to gray when the levels are not close to max.  Does that sound right?


----------



## johnjen

Yes those gray dots are clipping indicators and 'latch' red when the signal reaches 100% to tell you to reduce the (input or output depending upon which set turns red) level so no clipping can occur.
Digital clipping is 'bad'.

JJ


----------



## GumbyDammit223

Thanks for the confirmation.  I found out that my VU meter sluggishness has to be something in Foobar.  The version of Foobar I'm running at work with the plug-in doesn't exhibit sluggishness.  Now I need to find some way to copy all my work Foobar settings and migrate them home to figure out what's causing the slowdown.


----------



## castleofargh

GumbyDammit223 said:


> Turns out my 30 second lag was due to my setting Foobar's output buffer to max which is conveniently 30 seconds!  Minimizing it to 50ms definitely helps my A/B comparisons.  The VU meter sluggishness is still a grumble though.  I'm also noticing gray/red circles over both both sets of meters.  I'm assuming those are latching clipping indicators because I can click on them and turn them back to gray when the levels are not close to max.  Does that sound right?


you might have replaced a problem by another one. some visual effects require a given quantity of foobar's buffer, not enough buffer will be an issue. there is no magic number for good sound of silliness like that, it just depends on what you're using and finding "the zone" where you don't have issues. 

another thing you can check is the minimum/mix/linear phase filter setting in sonarworks(I don't use it so I can't tell you where it is). latency does change with those settings, not sure that would impact foobar's stuff but more importantly the stress on the CPU isn't the same.

and of course if you really don't know what the problem could be, you can always install another foobar on a different partition and test if it's really a foobar issue.


----------



## GumbyDammit223

It has to be in the foobar configuration because I did install it on my computer at work and the meters work as expected there.  Yesterday I even tried copying all of the work foobar's configuration onto the home version and still sluggish behavior.  My home computer is by the numbers a more robust machine - 8- core I7 vs. 4-core I5 with double the RAM and a better graphics card, so....  I give up.  Of the 2005 (I hope I'm exaggerating) different switches that can be set along the audio path, any one of which can screw things up, I have no clue what it could be and the risk of completely f-ing something up and requiring a system restore is far from zero.  Since I literally know just enough about how this stuff works to be dangerous (and I design lasers for a living), I'm not going to tempt fate any longer and leave it alone.


----------



## groovyd

GumbyDammit223 said:


> It has to be in the foobar configuration because I did install it on my computer at work and the meters work as expected there.  Yesterday I even tried copying all of the work foobar's configuration onto the home version and still sluggish behavior.  My home computer is by the numbers a more robust machine - 8- core I7 vs. 4-core I5 with double the RAM and a better graphics card, so....  I give up.  Of the 2005 (I hope I'm exaggerating) different switches that can be set along the audio path, any one of which can screw things up, I have no clue what it could be and the risk of completely f-ing something up and requiring a system restore is far from zero.  Since I literally know just enough about how this stuff works to be dangerous (and I design lasers for a living), I'm not going to tempt fate any longer and leave it alone.



yeah, the problem with tools such as foobar is there is just too much going on.


----------



## DivineCurrent

groovyd said:


> HD650 and M50 both arrived today, perfectly packaged thanks!  Right off the bat I can say the 650 with calibration is a serious reference headphone.  Not sure even the X is this flat (pre or post calibration).  Has a touch more top end sizzle and very well controlled bass, nothing sloppy here at all.  Ultra-light, my neck loves them. Soundstage I think the X gets the edge though and sheer earpad comfort discounting the weight the X also wins but for the weight these are throwing spades all over the place.  They will definitely get some head time when my neck tires of the X.
> 
> HD 650
> 
> ...



It is very interesting how different your HD650 frequency response looks from mine. There's less treble on mine and less mid bass. There's also this weird 1K hump on mine. 




 

So, out of the headphones you got the individual calibration done for, which one do you like the best?


----------



## groovyd

The X is still my favorite headphones not just for sound which it has in spades but the feel of the earpads being plush and firm against my head and the carbon fiber headband feels really nice too.  They are a little heavy but there is also something about their weight I like.  But with my neck issues (c-spinal fusion) the 650 offers a nearly equal sonic performance but with much less stress.  Just wish the earpads were slightly more cushy but they aren't bad at all.  So X is still tops and 650 comes in second.  I might actually put the XC though 2nd before the 650 too but it doesn't entirely feel flat after calibration like the others do, it has a bit more hip hop in it which is actually toe tapping fun so I am not at all disappointed in that.


----------



## scarfacegt

How does this sonaworks work? Will it improve the sound quality of focal elear???


----------



## GumbyDammit223

Check out their website to learn the details.  They perform a frequency response test (I bet quite similar to what Tyll does) on a specific model headphone - probably over several samples, and then invert that frequency response to remove any anomalous parts of the headphone's sound signature.  For example, the profile for my HD700's cuts out the spike at 6-7 kHz and makes them sound so much better.  They provide response files for several different models and manufacturers, but the Focal Elear is not one of them.  You do have the option of sending your headphones in to them to measure and they will produce a profile specific to your headphones.  You can also do that if you have a headphone that already has a response file, but by sending yours in, you get a profile specific to your gear, not an average from some sample.  It works. There were some kinks getting it to work with Foobar 2k, but I'm happy with the result.


----------



## groovyd

I won't buy any more headphones unless I can get them calibrated... just sayin


----------



## GumbyDammit223

I've played around with Equalizer APO a bit to tweak my HD700's but never could get the sound to my liking while Sonarworks did the job.  A HUGE thanks to Mattis for spending so much time helping me get the demo working!  There was no guarantee I'd purchase the real license, but he helped me anyway.


----------



## Roll

scarfacegt said:


> How does this sonaworks work? Will it improve the sound quality of focal elear???



U can try their Beta version True-Fi, it has the Focal Elear on their list now. I assume it will be on their Sonarworks soon. I also see it on their beta Android app: Soundigo

https://sonarworks.com/truefi

They also added: - We've just launched a new True-Fi beta build, which adds an interesting feature - age related hearing loss compensation!


----------



## groovyd

Just pulled the trigger on a pair of calibrated HD800s


----------



## Bern2

groovyd said:


> Just pulled the trigger on a pair of calibrated HD800s



Sonarworks saved the 800 for me.  Night and day difference.  And I'm only using the generic file.  You are in for a treat!

Bern


----------



## scarfacegt

Roll said:


> U can try their Beta version True-Fi, it has the Focal Elear on their list now. I assume it will be on their Sonarworks soon. I also see it on their beta Android app: Soundigo
> 
> https://sonarworks.com/truefi
> 
> They also added: - We've just launched a new True-Fi beta build, which adds an interesting feature - age related hearing loss compensation!



Tnx for answer.Does it work with tidal?


----------



## Cruxiaer

scarfacegt said:


> Tnx for answer.Does it work with tidal?


I just installed True-Fi beta a couple days ago. The installation is pretty straight forward, download, install and voila! Works out of the box, no more tweaking required. What it does is that it installs an audio driver interface, all audio signal goes through the True-Fi app before it is routed to your chosen output, in my case the Jot DAC. Pretty easy and painless process, no harm giving it a try!


----------



## Roll

scarfacegt said:


> Tnx for answer.Does it work with tidal?



Yes it does with Tidal. 

What it does not 'work' is with the Dolby Atmos on Windows 10..or at least I can not turn it on while running True-Fi.

Since the True-Fi, I do not have to play with the Sonarworks and Systemwide software everytime there is a Windows 10 Insider Program update...

This really is as Cruxiaer said above - Works out of the box. If I have a problem, I just restart my computer..and all is well again. 

My trial will be ending soon...and I'd be back to playing with the Sonarworks, Systemwide, and my external dac..


----------



## groovyd

Received my HD800s and to be honest I prefer the HD650 for being much much flatter.  I had expected the 800s to step up the 650 game but I was wrong.  Construction and comfort is good though and it has huge soundstage but requires considerable compensation.


----------



## GumbyDammit223

groovyd said:


> Received my HD800s and to be honest I prefer the HD650 for being much much flatter.  I had expected the 800s to step up the 650 game but I was wrong.  Construction and comfort is good though and it has huge soundstage but requires considerable compensation.



How do they compare to the 650's when the compensation is enabled?  My 700's definitely sound harsh when I do an A/B comparison.


----------



## Bern2

groovyd said:


> Received my HD800s and to be honest I prefer the HD650 for being much much flatter.  I had expected the 800s to step up the 650 game but I was wrong.  Construction and comfort is good though and it has huge soundstage but requires considerable compensation.



I thought you were getting the 800.  (Wish Senn would've used another letter for the upgrade besides S).  The 800 needed EVEN MORE correcting.  

Bern


----------



## groovyd

Bern2 said:


> I thought you were getting the 800.  (Wish Senn would've used another letter for the upgrade besides S).  The 800 needed EVEN MORE correcting.
> 
> Bern



To be honest I think this calibration is either flawed or there is an issue with the drivers themselves.  They sound unnaturally boomy after correction and retain the harsh highs, nothing at all like my other calibrated cans sound.  All of my other calibrated cans share a very consistent sound as expected but the HD800s just sounds 'off'.  Really not sure what to think other then I might have gotten a bad unit or a poor calibration.  Not really sure how to verify this except for by comparison with my other calibrated cans.  Even my MHP1000 sounds better post-correction which is a very compensated can.


----------



## MattTCG

Try the average curve. Then you will know if it is a bad profile.


----------



## Bern2

MattTCG said:


> Try the average curve. Then you will know if it is a bad profile.


Not sure there's a curve yet for the HD800S.....just the 800.  Maybe it's been added...been a while since I last looked.

Bern


----------



## MattTCG

I thought we were talking about the standard 800.


----------



## groovyd

They offered to double check the calibration for me so no worries and once again thanks goes out to Sonarworks for providing quality customer service.


----------



## Roll

Looks like True-Fi is is now out of beta..
https://storeus.sonarworks.com/products/sonarworks-true-fi

$59 US - Introductory price available until Oct 31, 2017. Afterwards $79.00


True-Fi supports these headphones:
https://www.sonarworks.com/truefi/headphones

verse

Sonarworks supports these headphones:
https://www.sonarworks.com/headphones/supported


----------



## koven

does using true-fi replace the need for the ref 3 plug-in?


----------



## Roll

koven said:


> does using true-fi replace the need for the ref 3 plug-in?



True-Fi has no need re the ref 3 or any other mumble jumble, it is a self contain software....

anyways my beta trial is ending...so back to REFERENCE 3 PLUGIN and REFERENCE 3 SYSTEMWIDE..and if I get frustrated, I'd buy True-Fi before the end of October.


----------



## manukmanohar

What is the advantage of true-fi? System wide app?


----------



## Roll

manukmanohar said:


> What is the advantage of true-fi? System wide app?



Maybe this is of help:

Sonarworks audio calibration software
Music inspires people to be more than themselves. That's why we're on a mission to reveal the truth in sound.

https://www.sonarworks.com/#


----------



## manukmanohar

Roll said:


> Maybe this is of help:
> 
> Sonarworks audio calibration software
> Music inspires people to be more than themselves. That's why we're on a mission to reveal the truth in sound.
> ...



What is the advantage of truefi over reference 3. Does it no longer require buying another system wide plugin to make it work system wide in a pc? 
Apart from ability to put pop, rock eqs over normalised headphone eq (as compared to more granularized controls in reference 3), is there any difference?


----------



## Roll

manukmanohar said:


> What is the advantage of truefi over reference 3. Does it no longer require buying another system wide plugin to make it work system wide in a pc?
> Apart from ability to put pop, rock eqs over normalised headphone eq (as compared to more granularized controls in reference 3), is there any difference?



The main advantage of True Fi is one does not have to use another Systemwide plug-in or play with pedalboard and vb cable within Windows


But Reference 3 (4 should be out sometime) has more fine-tuning such as dry/wet dial..

U should try their trials...I would start out with True Fi, it is easy to set up...


----------



## manukmanohar

Unfortunately the Headphone which I prefer to use now, (HE-560) are not supported.
For the price, a system wide eq that makes the HE-560 closer to neutral is indeed very appealing.

Anyone knows whether these are going to be added anytime soon?


----------



## Indrajit

Hi can anyone tell me if Headphones calibrated through Sonarworks Demo retain the sonic changes when paired with external devices like music players? Or is a calibrated headphone meant to be used only on a pc where the software was installed


----------



## Roll

Indrajit said:


> Hi can anyone tell me if Headphones calibrated through Sonarworks Demo retain the sonic changes when paired with external devices like music players? Or is a calibrated headphone meant to be used only on a pc where the software was installed



Calibrated headphones or not has to go thru their software on computers or their particular software on Android or Apple...


----------



## Indrajit

Roll said:


> Calibrated headphones or not has to go thru their software on computers or their particular software on Android or Apple...


Thank you


----------



## groovyd (Sep 28, 2017)

Digging the new upgraded menuBus for Mac just released. Check it out!

http://www.menubus.audio

Very very clean interface and easy to use with great sound and no glitches, it really does just work and the non-pro version is now entirely FREE (as in beer) with unlimited plugin support.  Pro adds unlimited presets and hotkey shortcuts for all of my calibrated speakers and headphones.

A must have tool for all serious Mac audiophiles... highly recommended.


----------



## sikki-six

Just bought *True-Fi (for Mac)* and have used it with my HD600 and HD800, and yes, it works well. Most obviously, True-Fi relatively dials up the normally rolled-off sub-bass frequencies with these two dynamic & open pairs. Also, excess honk and brightness is brought way down. That strong bass output might be off-putting at least at first. For the treble-heads out there True-Fi's target response might sound dull and (sub) bassy, but I think many could find use for it. Differences between headphones seem to become very much less apparent, though.

Especially the *HD800 *becomes a different beast altogether. Bypassing the software after a pleasing moment of listening brings one to the the facts: HD800 is one bright and colored headphone. But, enabling True-Fi (like a good EQ'ing) shows how capable headphone it really is.  Just as I've learned using simple 10-band EQ's, HD800 has some awesomely tight and clean bass hidden behind that treble. The changes are drastic to say the least, much less so with HD600. But yeah, try and get this kind of tone correction with a new amp or a pair of tubes - it's not happening. I'd bet this would make many treble-weary HD800 owners very pleased. This headphone takes EQ very, very well.

*HD600* doesn't sound the same as 800, even though they obviously have a similar/same (flat) target. Much like the models without EQ, HD600's mids are more upfront, the smooth highs remain and a (EQ) boosted bass extension makes them mostly sound more soft. That HD800 punch in the subs is never going to happen with this driver. I'd guess it's just simple physics. The 600 sound changes far less when True-Fi is applied. It's simply a more neutral headphone without any FR-work done.

After using the HD800 with True-Fi for a long while I set up my own, much used simple & conservative 10-band iTunes EQ and it worked very well too, it maintained that crisp in the highs nicely, it sounded more exciting. It's more tiring in the long run for sure, though. 

My tests continue (LCD-2, FSP...), but I'd readily suggest HD800-users and people who need consistent sound out of the usual suspects for audio work especially to check out the demo version.


----------



## canali

can't wait for when they come out with a portable app, too


----------



## groovyd

Recalibrated HD-800s.  Downloaded the curves today should receive the headphones back tomorrow.  Top is the original calibration profile, bottom is the new profile.  Not a lot of difference except in the bass there is a significant delta that should tone down the correction which will hopefully clean up the bloated bass I was hearing. Not sure if they fully remeasured it as the two are almost impossibly identical above 200hz but if they did the repeatability is indeed impressive on their measurement rig.  Guessing they remeasured but then just tweaked the original profile to compensate for the bloated bass.

Insight into this process RudeWolf?

Original Profile:



 

New Profile:


----------



## groovyd

Received the headphones this morn and on first listen the slight cut to 100hz and high end tweak has fixed for me the glaring issue I was hearing.  Thanks again Sonarworks for making good great!


----------



## Sound Eq (Oct 12, 2017)

i downloaded ref3 plugin to be used with jriver and with my focal elear- mojo---burson v2+ --- good result

also at the same time i got the schiit loki a nice hardware and I can achieve good results--- still dont know which I like more loki or SW

I tried SW system wide and again good results

now I have a question by calibrating are we not removing the character of a headphone completely

I wish SW would add more options like a parametric eq that we an use after we flatten out the response, in case we want to add more bass and treble or more mids. instead of this tilting thing, which does not help alot in fine tuning

truhifi app was not optimal with my elear I do not know why, also the compensation when i set my age 44 yielded in a very annoying sound signature so treble highs, i had to set it to age 15  to not get bothered by that option, of course after that I stopped using that option

i for sure will by one of those I am just thinking which one ( system wide, heaphone plugin ) , and if there will be a new version of SW will buyers who bought the old version be able to update for free or is it like Jriver every time a new version comes out you have to buy it


----------



## Bern2

Sound Eq said:


> i downloaded ref3 plugin to be used with jriver and with my focal elear- mojo---burson v2+ --- good result
> 
> also at the same time i got the schiit loki a nice hardware and I can achieve good results--- still dont know which I like more loki or SW
> 
> ...


How do your Audeze's sound with SW?  Not sure what timeline LCD-2 is supported.

Bern


----------



## Sound Eq (Oct 13, 2017)

Bern2 said:


> How do your Audeze's sound with SW?  Not sure what timeline LCD-2 is supported.
> 
> Bern



lcd2 to me sounds great and i love its sound as is so i did not spend time using sonarworks with lcd2

its the elear i am trying to get it optimized and see whether i like its stock sound or calibrated using sw

also having the loki is making things more difficult which i prefer to use with elear , is it loki and elear or sw with elear

one thing that is starting to concern me, is using either will not make me like the stock sound of elear if my brain gets used to listening with loki or sw. The elear is such a polarizing headphone, sometimes with some songs it can sound amazing as is and with other genres or songs it can be such a can that i can not listen to it at all. But that bad feeling goes away once you listen to a great recorded song on elear and you reach levels with elear that can let you forget its poor performance with other songs. To fix the elear add few db at the 4khz with a wide q in  parametric eq can solve the dip issue. Also I add a few dbs at 84 hz to add more bass


----------



## guliver

Is there a way to play hd music files with foobar and my external DAC Chord Mojo I cannot make it works with Sonaworks? without it I got no issues!


----------



## MattTCG

Did I miss a memo? Sonarworks Reference 4...how long has this been out? Differences between 3 and 4?


----------



## Bern2

MattTCG said:


> Did I miss a memo? Sonarworks Reference 4...how long has this been out? Differences between 3 and 4?


Available for upgrade Oct. 16th.
https://www.sonarworks.com/reference/upgrade-policy

Bern


----------



## manukmanohar

Any plans to add support for HE-560 headphones?


----------



## Roll

Maybe of interest - from the new Reference 4 trial:

Sonarworks Reference 4 Headphone Edition User Manual

https://www.sonarworks.com/reference/tutorials/headphone-edition-manual

What is Sonarworks Reference system?
-Headphone plugin
-Systemwide

Using the Reference DAW plugin
Using Reference Systemwide
Troubleshooting


----------



## Pokemonn

what is th diffrence between refernce 3 and 4?
I own referrence 3 I might upgrade to 4.
Thanks.


----------



## GumbyDammit223

I purchased v3 back on 7/30 and when I tried to upgrade, it told me I have to pay yet the previous page said I should get it for free.  Just emailed support - we'll see what they say...


----------



## labuta

I have tried both Sonarworks Reference 3 and 4. In general, I liked the software. The only thing that is bothering me is their averaged headphones profiles - I am not convinced I can trust them. You can see a comparison below how they have updated DT880 average profile after releasing Reference 4. We can say average profile was very inaccurate in hi-frequencies, but is it accurate now and can we trust it? Will it drastically change again after they release Reference 5?


----------



## Bern2

labuta said:


> I have tried both Sonarworks Reference 3 and 4. In general, I liked the software. The only thing that is bothering me is their averaged headphones profiles - I am not convinced I can trust them. You can see a comparison below how they have updated DT880 average profile after releasing Reference 4. We can say average profile was very inaccurate in hi-frequencies, but is it accurate now and can we trust it? Will it drastically change again after they release Reference 5?


From my understanding they take an average of what they measure.  So it basically boils down to the headphone variance itself.  I just wish they had a US shipping center to send to and receive from.  

I use the HD800 preset and love it.  I could never manually EQ to satisfaction.

Bern


----------



## GumbyDammit223

With my HD700's the highs are tamed very nicely, so that some of the music I have I can actually listen to now.  And my problem with the website was the fact that I couldn't distinguish between "July" and "September" and the fact that they are not equal.
*facepalm*


----------



## labuta

Bern2 said:


> From my understanding they take an average of what they measure.


You are correct. I just wanted to point out that if you are looking for accuracy (not something that just sounds better), you should be aware that "accuracy" changes over time. What was "accurate" one year ago, is not "accurate" today and most likely will not be "accurate" one year after. If there is such a big deviation between the same type of headphones, maybe they should not offer averaged calibration profiles for them at all?

It would be interesting to send them a set of headphones for calibration, then wait for some time and send them again. I would be curious to see how accurately both of those calibration profiles match.


----------



## castleofargh

labuta said:


> You are correct. I just wanted to point out that if you are looking for accuracy (not something that just sounds better), you should be aware that "accuracy" changes over time. What was "accurate" one year ago, is not "accurate" today and most likely will not be "accurate" one year after. If there is such a big deviation between the same type of headphones, maybe they should not offer averaged calibration profiles for them at all?
> 
> It would be interesting to send them a set of headphones for calibration, then wait for some time and send them again. I would be curious to see how accurately both of those calibration profiles match.


you're looking at the wrong cause here. 
-first of all, there is no absolute of accurate headphone signature. part of the signature needs to compensate for your own head and body(parts that are usually interacting with the sound but not when wearing a headphone), so while there absolutely exists a flat frequency response for you, there is no evidence that it will sound neutral to me.  now while this may seem desperate, we're still all humans, we tend to have 2 ears more or less at the same place and very few people have a pyramid instead of a head. the differences will amount to a few dB in some places, but in general the big lines will fit most people. I'm just saying you need to be realistic in your expectations of what a neutral curve really offers. 

-secondly, if you took 5 pairs of that headphone and measured them, you would get several dBs of variations somewhere. so of course as they get more pairs to measure, they average the "average response". even left and right drivers will almost always have some small variations of a few dBs unless the manufacturer makes some efforts to limit that specifically(and some do).

-third, pads with time will inevitably alter the frequency response, this is the one sure and most significant(as in audible) aspect of headphones changing over time. I don't know if they make their average curve based only on new pairs, or if they include the pairs sent by customers, but whatever they do, changes do occur over time (until you replace the pads ^_^). but that's only part of the fun stuff changing a signature a little. how you place the headphone on your head for example. if you have a lot of hair, glasses, a big head creating a stronger clamp, and of course what signature comes out of your very own pair. while all those can amount to very little sometimes, they are variables Sonarwork can't control when they give you an average curve. and at best they can measure your headphone, match the drivers, and remove part of the uncertainty. which is pretty significant given how wrong most headphones can be when it comes to FR. 

the way I see it, when you use the average curve, you trust the brand. if you get an old Audeze headphone(apparently they have improved stability on the new models), from one pair to the next you never knew what would happen. but if you get a hd800, from one pair to the next there will be very little variation because Sennheiser is being more German than a German engineering caricature on those pairs. so using an average for that headphone will be a good deal more reliable when it comes to achieving Sonarwork ideal target response. else there is custom measurement.


----------



## Solrighal

MattTCG said:


> Did I miss a memo? Sonarworks Reference 4...how long has this been out? Differences between 3 and 4?



I missed the memo too Matt. Luckily I've just upgraded to High Sierra and now SW Ref 3 no longer works in Vox. I contacted support and they got back to me tonight suggesting I try SW Ref 4 and see how that goes.

It's working fine and I like the Systemwide aspect too, although I'll have to wait for daylight before I really try it out on my speakers. One odd thing is that the difference between SW Ref 4 on & off is much less obvious than it was with SW Ref 3. Something has changed in the profile. I'll be damned if I'm not hearing more detail now though & the bass seems to slam just that wee bit harder. That could be me though.

The only thing is I think they're going to charge me for this & I don't know if I'm entirely comfortable about that since I was perfectly happy with SW Ref 3.


----------



## MattTCG

I just got SW Ref 4 installed. Early impressions for me are that the effect of the average profile is a tad more subtle. I need more time to listen though to make a true determination.


----------



## castleofargh

Solrighal said:


> I missed the memo too Matt. Luckily I've just upgraded to High Sierra and now SW Ref 3 no longer works in Vox. I contacted support and they got back to me tonight suggesting I try SW Ref 4 and see how that goes.
> 
> It's working fine and I like the Systemwide aspect too, although I'll have to wait for daylight before I really try it out on my speakers. One odd thing is that the difference between SW Ref 4 on & off is much less obvious than it was with SW Ref 3. Something has changed in the profile. I'll be damned if I'm not hearing more detail now though & the bass seems to slam just that wee bit harder. That could be me though.
> 
> The only thing is I think they're going to charge me for this & I don't know if I'm entirely comfortable about that since I was perfectly happy with SW Ref 3.


could it just be the default filter option? they mention no latency option on the 4, sometime moving from FIR to IIR and apparently they also have a mix could have some small impact on positioning impression . 
didn't test so I'm talking out of my butt here about the general idea of changing digital filters in EQ. see this as an idea more than a fact ^_^.


----------



## Solrighal

I don't see anyting about NO latency but there IS a low latency option which is enabled by default. In this respect it's exactly the same as Ref 3. The sound is definitely more, well, more. In fact it does give something of the character of the HD 650 back I think. Ref 3 was a pretty severe EQ imo. Ref 4 seems less 'flat'.


----------



## RudeWolf

Sorry about not announcing Ref4 here, I'm afraid my MOT status prevents me from posting any commercial news.

Anyways in short - Ref 4 plug-in has zero latency mode* and we've added extra profiles and upgraded a number of the old ones. The changes in average profiles shouldn't be too drastic and were mostly introduced due to increased number of measured samples. @groovyd and others are safe - individual calibration still is the most accurate choice and hasn't changed.

*zero latency plug-in means true zero latency if there's no latency introduced by the plug-in wrapper. AFAIK there are no true zero latency wrappers out there. That's why Systemwide still has no zero latency.


----------



## Solrighal (Oct 17, 2017)

This upgrade procedure is a mess. As far as I can tell upgrading from Ref 3 to Ref 4 + Systemwide should be free but when I put in my Ref 3 license key it's asking me for €19. Getting tired of this crap.

Edit - I get it now. I'm actually expected to pay €19 to retain exactly the same features I had before my OS upgrade. An unscrupulous company might use the OS update as an excuse to dig more money out of their loyal customers whereas what they should really be doing is ensuring their existing customers are able to continue using a product they bought in good faith.


----------



## MattTCG

Solrighal said:


> This upgrade procedure is a mess. As far as I can tell upgrading from Ref 3 to Ref 4 + Systemwide should be free but when I put in my Ref 3 license key it's asking me for €19. Getting tired of this crap.
> 
> Edit - I get it now. I'm actually expected to pay €19 to retain exactly the same features I had before my OS upgrade. An unscrupulous company might use the OS update as an excuse to dig more money out of their loyal customers whereas what they should really be doing is ensuring their existing customers are able to continue using a product they bought in good faith.



Wow. I don't normally respond to rants here. But for you I'll make an exception.

1. No one forced you to upgrade in the first place. If you feel that the "features are exactly the same" why would you upgrade?. Stick with what you've got and find some happiness.

2. Do you have any idea how difficult it is to properly code and release any piece of software? And to do it across multiple OS platforms, DAW's and wrappers? Do you REALLY think that any error that you get at this point in the process is an effort to get more money from you? Seriously I'm asking. They are attempting to make a FREE TRIAL available for YOU, FOR FREE AT NO COST. So that you don't have to pay if you don't like it. That is completely on their development nickel as a courtesy to their potential customers.

3. Unscrupulous company?  Rudewolf represents his company well here. He is active in the community, listens and responds. This is the kind of MOT that I look for here. 

4. Now your behavior, honestly it was a hissy fit. And from a member who's been here since 2005. Surely you can make better contributions than this and represent yourself and the community in a more professional way.


----------



## RudeWolf

Actually I don't think it's worth shelling out 19$ for the upgrade, if all you do is listen via wrapped plug-in or just use Systemwide. The Reference 4 series has been and will be primarily oriented towards professionals. For them zero latency means a lot and then the upgrade makes much more sense.

I'd say - wait until Q1 2018 ends when we plan upgrading Systemwide. Or maybe by that time True-Fi turns into something more interesting for serious listeners. After I finish most of the stuff with Ref4 launch, I will dedicate myself into making True-Fi more exciting for the discerning head-fier. As it is, it's very decent, but I have mixed feelings about not contributing more to that project. I am, however, very hopeful that I can understand what you guys would want from it and maybe throw in some surprises as well!


----------



## Roll

What's new?

Reference 4 introduces zero latency to the already impressive feature list Sonarworks users have grown to love and rely on. No extra latency means that Reference 4 plug-in can be used for vocal and instrument tracking. Finally musicians who demand instant response on their input will be able to fully rely on their monitoring.

https://sonarworks.com/blog/reference-4-out-now/

Sonarworks Reference 4 Headphone Edition now feature Systemwide, making it an even better value.

Reference 4 now supports 101 headphones
The updated profiles are marked in *bold*, so if you’ve been using them, please upgrade to Reference 4 or just update your Reference 3 software. 

https://sonarworks.com/blog/reference-4-now-supports-101-headphones/


Had a bit of problem loading Reference 4 on Windows 10 Insider Preview initially. I used Revo Uninstaller Pro to uninstall my 'bought' True Fi and Ref 3. Loaded her up and she is running smoothly. No hiccups so far. With Ref 3, I always had to play with the software and Systemwide - So the last 3 months, I just used True-Fi.


----------



## Solrighal

MattTCG said:


> Wow. I don't normally respond to rants here. But for you I'll make an exception.
> 
> 1. No one forced you to upgrade in the first place. If you feel that the "features are exactly the same" why would you upgrade?. Stick with what you've got and find some happiness.
> 
> ...



OK, hang on. Before this gets out of hand I need to point out that my last post doesn't supply all the details, my bad.

First off, on Sunday night my Ref 3 was working perfectly in Vox. On Monday it wouldn't load. My Mac had updated to High Sierra in the interim and now Sonarworks Ref 3 won't load. Fair enough, says I, I'll see if Sonarworks have a workaround. After a couple of emails with Support it was suggested I try to install the free trial of Sonarworks Ref 4 to see if that worked. It did. But now I'm in the position that if I want to continue using software that worked perfectly well on Sunday I need to hand over another €19. That is my issue.

And yes, if Sonarworks were to say they were working on a solution I wouldn't have aired this issue here.


----------



## MattTCG

Solrighal said:


> OK, hang on. Before this gets out of hand I need to point out that my last post doesn't supply all the details, my bad.
> 
> First off, on Sunday night my Ref 3 was working perfectly in Vox. On Monday it wouldn't load. My Mac had updated to High Sierra in the interim and now Sonarworks Ref 3 won't load. Fair enough, says I, I'll see if Sonarworks have a workaround. After a couple of emails with Support it was suggested I try to install the free trial of Sonarworks Ref 4 to see if that worked. It did. But now I'm in the position that if I want to continue using software that worked perfectly well on Sunday I need to hand over another €19. That is my issue.
> 
> And yes, if Sonarworks were to say they were working on a solution I wouldn't have aired this issue here.



Fair enough. It's just that I have issues with public rants before people make an honest effort to resolve the problem themselves (sometimes it's your setup and not the software) and trying to work out a resolution with the manufacturer. I also had an issue with Ref 4 and SW helped me work it out in less than a day.


----------



## 514077 (Oct 18, 2017)

Roll said:


> Maybe of interest - from the new Reference 4 trial:
> 
> Sonarworks Reference 4 Headphone Edition User Manual
> 
> ...


I can't seem to open the user manual.  What file type is it?  Is it print or just pictures of print?  I only ask because I'd like to read it before trying again to use the software.  Hoping Ref.4 might be a little easier to get up and running.


----------



## Solrighal

MattTCG said:


> Fair enough. It's just that I have issues with public rants before people make an honest effort to resolve the problem themselves (sometimes it's your setup and not the software) and trying to work out a resolution with the manufacturer. I also had an issue with Ref 4 and SW helped me work it out in less than a day.



I agree mate, I'm the same myself. This has been a fiasco all around because I've been without the internet for 23 hours in the middle of all this. Not a happy bunny. For the record, I still don't know what the deal here is. If they're asking €19 and that also gets me Systemwide then I'd consider that a good deal. However if all I'm getting is essentially the same as I had a few days ago then I'm not going to pay up twice.


----------



## Solrighal

UELong said:


> I can't seem to open the user manual.  What file type is it?  Is it print or just pictures of print?  I only ask because I'd like to read it before trying again to use the software.  Hoping Ref.4 might be a little easier to get up and running.



As far as I know it's a PDF but it doesn't have the '.pdf' suffix attached.

https://sonarworks.us9.list-manage....555d53d896887bac90&id=5c52c20466&e=a22d12b877


----------



## MattTCG

The upgrade does include system-wide.


----------



## Solrighal

MattTCG said:


> The upgrade does include system-wide.



Indeed, I've only just found that out. I went ahead and upgraded to Reference 4 and it does indeed include Systemwide.

All's well that ends well.


----------



## Roll

It is worth it to upgrade to Reference 4 just to get Systemwide as a package
If you bought Systemwide and have Reference 3, it is a free upgrade Reference 4 'code'. 
If I read correct, the old codes still work if u ever want to go back..

So far I have no problem after doing a fresh install, when I deleted all the 'old' Reference.. and True-Fi

The only problem I need to solve - not updating my headphone latest profiles

https://sonarworks.com/blog/reference-4-now-supports-101-headphones/


----------



## Solrighal

It's worth it for me to get the Systemwide functionality. Interestingly though, Ref 4 does something different to my HD 650 when compared with Ref 3. Perhaps they've tested more samples and so the target average has changed. Whatever the reason the difference now between using SW and straight-through is no longer night & day.


----------



## groovyd

Solrighal said:


> I missed the memo too Matt. Luckily I've just upgraded to High Sierra and now SW Ref 3 no longer works in Vox. I contacted support and they got back to me tonight suggesting I try SW Ref 4 and see how that goes.
> 
> It's working fine and I like the Systemwide aspect too, although I'll have to wait for daylight before I really try it out on my speakers. One odd thing is that the difference between SW Ref 4 on & off is much less obvious than it was with SW Ref 3. Something has changed in the profile. I'll be damned if I'm not hearing more detail now though & the bass seems to slam just that wee bit harder. That could be me though.
> 
> The only thing is I think they're going to charge me for this & I don't know if I'm entirely comfortable about that since I was perfectly happy with SW Ref 3.



My Ref 3 also quit working after OS upgrade.  It appears the license codes and calibration files are in some way attached to the machine id or some OS id that it is running on.  Deleting the calibrations folder and re-installing the license gave me new files that work again.  So basically you cannot 'migrate' these files across machines and sometimes OS it seems.


----------



## groovyd

Solrighal said:


> This upgrade procedure is a mess. As far as I can tell upgrading from Ref 3 to Ref 4 + Systemwide should be free but when I put in my Ref 3 license key it's asking me for €19. Getting tired of this crap.
> 
> Edit - I get it now. I'm actually expected to pay €19 to retain exactly the same features I had before my OS upgrade. An unscrupulous company might use the OS update as an excuse to dig more money out of their loyal customers whereas what they should really be doing is ensuring their existing customers are able to continue using a product they bought in good faith.



to be honest (and i am a tough nut) i think they did a commendable job simplifying the licensing and install in Ref 4.  One license now covers everything and is all handled at once.  At least for me 'it just worked' and Ref 3 was a good fight.  Unfortunately a few tools I use don't seem to be able to read and use the new plugins not sure if they are AUv4 or something newer format then what some software likes?

My impression on sound is that Ref4 is a little lighter touch on the correction in a good way.  Feels ever so slightly cleaner sounding across the spectrum.  Latency values reported by the filters though are in fact higher now then they were under Ref 3 but it was verified to me by support that in fact Ref 3 was mis-reporting those latency values lower then they actually were and that bug was fixed.  Regarding zero latency that is mostly marketing hype as theoretically a zero latency filter does not exist without being able to predict the future.


----------



## MattTCG

Would anyone still using ref 3 plugin please pm me?


----------



## techboy

Ref 4 doesn’t sound as good as Ref 3 with my HD 650.


----------



## Solrighal

Strange, my experience is the complete opposite. Whereas Ref 3 stripped the body out of the mids in search of neutrality I'd say Ref 4 retains the character of the HD 650 mids far more accurately.


----------



## canali

Dar did a review on Sonarworks Tru-fi just recently.

*The search for headphone truth with Sonarworks’ True-Fi*
by 


John H. Darko


*http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2017/11/the-search-for-headphone-truth-with-sonarworks-true-fi/*


----------



## Solrighal

I didn't like True-Fi at all to be honest. I thought it sounded rather anaemic. Ref 4, on the other hand, is fabulous with my HD 650's.


----------



## castleofargh

is there some secret sauce to each apps? slightly different curve? different filter?  I must admit I thought they were about the same stuff just bundled as a VST for one and as an independent computer wide DSP for the other.  and that the price difference had to do with maybe the speaker calibration stuff.  I remember reading stuff on the Sonarworks website, but it really did nothing to clarify the differences for me. and I wonder if I'm just really dense as I can be sometimes, or if most people are like me and there is a little PR issue with that new product.


----------



## 514077

castleofargh said:


> is there some secret sauce to each apps? slightly different curve? different filter?  I must admit I thought they were about the same stuff just bundled as a VST for one and as an independent computer wide DSP for the other.  and that the price difference had to do with maybe the speaker calibration stuff.  I remember reading stuff on the Sonarworks website, but it really did nothing to clarify the differences for me. and I wonder if I'm just really dense as I can be sometimes, or if most people are like me and there is a little PR issue with that new product.


Frankly, I found their website confusing and unclear.  And I've tried the VST route with this and one other Audeze piece of software, with bad to frustrating results.  Until they can build something that can be simply used in FB2K, I'm not interested.


----------



## Solrighal

castleofargh said:


> is there some secret sauce to each apps? slightly different curve? different filter?  I must admit I thought they were about the same stuff just bundled as a VST for one and as an independent computer wide DSP for the other.  and that the price difference had to do with maybe the speaker calibration stuff.  I remember reading stuff on the Sonarworks website, but it really did nothing to clarify the differences for me. and I wonder if I'm just really dense as I can be sometimes, or if most people are like me and there is a little PR issue with that new product.



I initially used the VST component of Ref 3 in JRiver and then switched to Vox and used the AU plug-in. The sound was pretty much exactly the same. I've now switched to the AU plug-in supplied with Ref 4 and the sound is very different. To my mind it's better but it's interesting that it's different at all. I thought neutral was neutral but apparently that's not necessarily the case.


----------



## Solrighal

UELong said:


> Frankly, I found their website confusing and unclear.  And I've tried the VST route with this and one other Audeze piece of software, with bad to frustrating results.  Until they can build something that can be simply used in FB2K, I'm not interested.



I understand where you're coming from because I also found it confusing. I must say I do really enjoy the system-wide aspect of it. We're currently living in a rented house and so can't make many alterations to the listening room. Consequently the sound in this room is very 'lively', to say the least. The living room is huge, with tiled flooring and two large sets of patio doors. Not ideal for hi-fi. Now I know this isn't exactly scientific & it's definitely not neutral but I use the in-built setting called "French hi-fi speakers" and the sound is beffed up beautifully. The ringing which is normally present in this room is completely removed and the bass sounds like it goes lower. Like I said, not scientific, but it is very pleasant.


----------



## DivineCurrent

I’m curious, has anyone here done the calibration for the Hifiman HE-400i or 560? (Or any of the HE series?) I’m interested in how Sonarworks translates with planar headphones. Alternatively, anyone try the new Beyer headphones, DT 1990 and 1770 with Sonarworks?


----------



## groovyd

At least according to the techs at Sonarworks both Ref 3 and 4 output identical samples for the same input.  Surprised me too as I felt that I could hear a difference apparently it just isn't so.  They indicated they have tests that prove it.


----------



## thecrow (Nov 22, 2017)

ive just installed the ref 4 trial on my mac for headphone use and it comes up with a hum (using a wa2 tube amp)

it's a hum that increases in volume as the volume on the amp is increased

it occurred streaming tidal and itunes library

the same has happened before with either the ref 3 trial i tried a while ago (or perhaps another plug in if it wasn't the sonar work ref

i have not yet uninstalled anything that was loaded with ref 3 if that might be the culprit
a while ago i also installed the out of your head software in case that has anything to do with it
any ideas?

thanks



EDIT: i think all is good now

i did delete soundflower, and ref 3 trial from my mac and it appears all is fine now


----------



## thecrow (Nov 24, 2017)

can anyone help me get ref 4 working with tidal app on OSX? I sure can't


----------



## Solrighal

When you go into your OS X you should see this or similar...







Highlight Sonarworks Systemwide & that's it.


----------



## thecrow

Solrighal said:


> When you go into your OS X you should see this or similar...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I’ll try it again tonight

And settings of tidal output to sonarworks? (Or my usb connection output)


----------



## thecrow (Nov 25, 2017)

Solrighal said:


> When you go into your OS X you should see this or similar...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Unfortunately I can not get ref4 to marry up with tidal or audirvana 2 (to stream tidal there) at all


it does work with audirvana 2 as a plug in however

any ideas anyone on how to use this systemwide feature - as my settings don't seem to be working

(i did try disabling exclusive access on audirvana but that was no help either)


----------



## Solrighal

I don't use Tidal so I can't help you with that I'm afraid but if your System Settings are set to use Sonarworks Systemwide then surely it's irrelevant what Tidal is doing? That's just a guess btw, I don't pay for music playback software.


----------



## thecrow

Solrighal said:


> I don't use Tidal so I can't help you with that I'm afraid but if your System Settings are set to use Sonarworks Systemwide then surely it's irrelevant what Tidal is doing? That's just a guess btw, I don't pay for music playback software.


no problem

i think i'm going to give sonarworks a miss. i've trialed it a few times and it hasn't sold me on it

many thanks anyway


----------



## 514077

thecrow said:


> no problem
> 
> i think i'm going to give sonarworks a miss. i've trialed it a few times and it hasn't sold me on it
> 
> many thanks anyway


I've tried both Sonarworks and the new plug-in for Audeze, both with negative success.  I find the whole experience to be like the preverbial mirage in the desert-desirable but unobtainable.  I HATE being beaten!
These manufacturers seem to use JRiver and other expensive non-accessable players as the gold standard.  FB2K is both free and blind-user accessable.  When these famous companies ignore our market, they're telling a possible 15% of their market to get stuffed.  I say thank Bog for good people like @JaZZ and others who try to make things easier and understandable to people on this forum.


----------



## DivineCurrent

You should try setting up Pedalboard and Soundflower to use the VST plugin systemwide. I still use version 3 Sonarworks, but it still should work with 4. Follow this tutorial here;


----------



## Roll

At least in Windows 10, just load the latest Reference 4 Headphone Edition trial, input the serial number and restart the computer. 
Right click the icon to set up the Systemwide Settings and choose your output device. (Taskbar notification area is where the icon is, in white)

I did not have to do anything else except to change my playback device to my DragonFly so as to play the MQA Tidal (the only thing u need to check is the volume controls on the dac, output system and the Sonarworks Systemwide window..

U do not have to play with foobar2000 settings

There is no need to have Pedalboard, etc to run this software...

TRUE-FI, have not tried the latest, should be the same easy setting up


----------



## 514077

Roll said:


> At least in Windows 10, just load the latest Reference 4 Headphone Edition trial, input the serial number and restart the computer.
> Right click the icon to set up the Systemwide Settings and choose your output device. (Taskbar notification area is where the icon is, in white)
> 
> I did not have to do anything else except to change my playback device to my DragonFly so as to play the MQA Tidal (the only thing u need to check is the volume controls on the dac, output system and the Sonarworks Systemwide window..
> ...


Will that work on W7?  Or does 10 have some drivers one needs?  For visual imparement reasons, I prefer to stay with 7 at this time.


----------



## Roll

UELong said:


> Will that work on W7?  Or does 10 have some drivers one needs?  For visual imparement reasons, I prefer to stay with 7 at this time.



She should work with Windows 7 with a minimum of 2GB ram

Every time one turns on Systemwide (icon turns blue in the Taskbar notification area) make sure u check the volume. 

If not happy, uninstall

https://sonarworks.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/209582665-How-to-uninstall-Sonarworks-software-


----------



## Roll

DivineCurrent said:


> I’m curious, has anyone here done the calibration for the Hifiman HE-400i or 560? (Or any of the HE series?) I’m interested in how Sonarworks translates with planar headphones. Alternatively, anyone try the new Beyer headphones, DT 1990 and 1770 with Sonarworks?



Just the DT 1990 balanced pads - but with the optimum custom settings. I still prefer the T1, 2nd version dial down to 80% Dry/Wet


----------



## thecrow (Nov 27, 2017)

DivineCurrent said:


> You should try setting up Pedalboard and Soundflower to use the VST plugin systemwide. I still use version 3 Sonarworks, but it still should work with 4. Follow this tutorial here;



For crying out loud i eventually see what i was missing.

I’m a boofhead!! 

When turning on ref4 systemwide the systems volume was at zero, where i usually have it set. Rather than when i use the tidal app or audirvana and it itself sets the volume

Matiss from sonarworks was great in replying to my emails. His persistent help got me to keep playing around with settings until i eventually noticed this myself on the conputer staring at me in the system pref settings


----------



## 514077

Roll said:


> She should work with Windows 7 with a minimum of 2GB ram
> 
> Every time one turns on Systemwide (icon turns blue in the Taskbar notification area) make sure u check the volume.
> 
> ...


Thanks; I'll try it this way.


----------



## GumbyDammit223

thecrow said:


> Matiss from sonarworks was great in replying to my emails. His persistent help got me to keep playing around with settings until i eventually noticed this myself on the conputer staring at me in the system pref settings



I have to wholeheartedly agree!  He was extremely patient with me while getting the demo up and working.  There was no guarantee I would purchase the software (which I eventually did) but he spent a lot of time, with MANY emails, before it was working.  I wish all customer support people were as helpful!


----------



## groovyd

While systemwide and Sonarworks is ultimately an amazing set of tools I found Systemwide to be a little buggy and eventually switched to loading my Sonarworks calibrations into menuBus for Mac instead which is an unbelievably impressive app that has all the features of Systemwide for free and then some and is under active development and adding incredible new features every month now.  Plugin presets, keyboard shortcuts, ability to use any plugins you want...  highly recommended!

https://www.menubus.audio

And again, this is not a replacement for Sonarworks but a replacement for Systemwide on Macs only.  You still need Sonarworks for great calibrations.  menuBus also has a facebook group where the developer polls the user base for the next great feature of the month every month.


----------



## davidland

never tried, what a pity


----------



## ItsAllInMyHead

@RudeWolf and Head-fiers familiar with this.

My use case is listener vs. creator.  I've read this thread and other sites from start to finish, and read the manuals and promotional materials on the web site.  I am a headphone only user, but I may have use for speakers (as a listener) in the future, but I'd rank that last on priorities.

I am absolutely brand new to computer digital audio through headphones as a passionate music lover aka "audiophile" (I don't like that term much with all the connotations / baggage that sometimes come with it) and have listened to CDs / Vinyl etc. through a floor standing speaker set up for many many years. I've just recently started to assemble a few headphone rigs for various uses (home, travel / hotel, commuting) 

There seem to be 3 Sonarworks options.  True-Fi, Ref 4 Plug-in and Ref 4 SW.  

My 1st priority is listening through a MacBook Pro (2012 Mid Year Retina) 2.7 GHz Core i7 Processor w/ 16Gb Ram using Audirvana.  Output through USB to various DAC / Amp combos.
Music sources are primarily Tidal Hi-Fi / Master streaming (MQA in some cases) with MQA enabling some 24/192 tracks and a lot of tracks at 24/96.  Secondary - Downloads (FLAC) with files up to 24/192 and a bit of DSD (64 mostly and some 128)

The DAC enabling MQA is a renderer (if that matters).

Headphones - HD800S, Mezze 99 Classics, A&K T8IE MKII in-ear

I found this quote on the site when describing True-Fi - "The True-Fi application works with all audio sources on your computer. It supports sample rates up to 96kHz."

That seems to rule it out for an ideal solution, correct?

Ref 4 comes with both the plug-in and the SW.  A few questions, please.

- Does Ref 4 have any similar limitation for playback sampling rates? If so, what might that be?
- Are there any sonic advantages (or even technical differences) to simply running the AU plugin with Audirvana vs. running through SW as a virtual device?
- Since the plug-in and/or SW are essentially "last" - will using them affect the DAC's ability to be recognized as an MQA renderer and render properly?
- Ref 4 seems somewhat intuitive, but I am not a creator.  If I basically only set the program to defaults and select my calibration curve along with 100% wet, is there anything technically "different" from True-Fi using a specific filter?  If so, which filter matches True-Fi?  I am really not much of a tweaker, but as long as I can reset everything to defaults and not "break" anything - I'll probably fiddle with it a bit.  The simulation curves seem very cool.
- Any recommendations for profiles similar to the Mezze's and the A&Ks?

If I've misstated anything above, please forgive me.   Overall goal - make HD800S sound better (subjective) / less "cold" while maintaining the incredible soundstage.  Any other advice in addition to the questions above is greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance for your help.


----------



## ItsAllInMyHead

I made the leap and got the Ref 4 Headphone package.

So far, I think I have some of this reasonably figured out, but I could still use some help to build my general understanding.  Early impression is that it works as advertised.  Very intuitive even for a person that has no clue what they're doing.  Select a profile and go to town - turn it on and off... Slide the slider up to the red mark to avoid digital clipping... (Set the gain on power amp to +12db for usable volume range to compensate). 

- It seems that the Ref 4 plug-in also only supports sample rates up to 96kHz.
- Still don't know if there are any sonic differences (or technical differences) from a listening POV between the plugin when used with Audirvana and the SW app, but the plug-in is great.  I set it to real time so I can A/B easily.  I also love the way it volume matches? when the calibration is turned off.  I plan to continue using it this way unless I find some reason not to.  If anyone cares to shed some light, I'd appreciate it.  I do admit that I was getting miffed that I heard such a difference with True-fi and when I switched over to the app in Audirvana I heard nothing.  I went so far as to create an absolutely absurd custom profile, and nothing...  I did not tick the box to "Use AudioUnits Effects" in Audirvana - DUH!
- It no longer matters (to me) if there are technical diffs from Ref 4 to True-Fi.  I went with Ref 4, and I'm happy I did simply for the plug-in ability with Audirvana.
- The plug-in does not affect the DACs ability to be recognized as MQA and does not seem to affect its ability to render.  However, Ref 4 does not seem to work in conjunction with / over the top of an MQA file of any sample rate.  When I play a 24/96 or 24/192 file though the DAC with MQA rendering, it plays properly and Audirvana shows the DAC at the proper depth and frequency, but Ref 4 shows 96kHz only, and the meters etc don't work, and the calibration has no effect.  Playing the identical files through a non-MQA rendering DAC, Audirvana unfolds to 96kHz, but the meters / calibration functions properly in Ref 4.

In short - I don't think Ref 4 plays nicely with MQA (and it may be fully intended not to).  It's nice that when it's used as a plug-in that it seems to just get out of the way though as if it weren't there for MQA. The only thing that caught me off guard was the unexpected jump in gain.  When ref 4 is "on" with my settings, there is a 10.7db cut.  When it goes to an MQA file, I think it de-activates, and there is no cut.  If I am interpreting what's happening correctly.... I may not be.

It plays nicely with 99% of my listening needs, and may have saved me from trying to find a "warmer" set of cans.  Only time will tell.

Any help is appreciated, and if what I've put up helps someone else - even better.  Again, if I have some of this incorrect, particularly around how it handles.  MQA, please let me know.

- Cheers


----------



## Solrighal

I have no idea regarding the hi-res aspect (although I'm surprised it makes any difference) but you dodged a bullet with True-Fi. I thought it sounded pretty awful & night & day different to the full Ref 4 product when used with my HD 650.


----------



## castleofargh

ItsAllInMyHead said:


> I made the leap and got the Ref 4 Headphone package.
> 
> So far, I think I have some of this reasonably figured out, but I could still use some help to build my general understanding.  Early impression is that it works as advertised.  Very intuitive even for a person that has no clue what they're doing.  Select a profile and go to town - turn it on and off... Slide the slider up to the red mark to avoid digital clipping... (Set the gain on power amp to +12db for usable volume range to compensate).
> 
> ...


the complete MQA decoding by a MQA compatible DAC shouldn't work if any digital action was done to the file. the DAC can still play the purely wave part of the file like any DAC or player always can. or you could decode stuff partially on the software side with whatever app that might do that before applying some digital changes like an EQ and then send it all to a DAC for non MQA reconstruction of the analog signal. but as far as I understand, the complete MQA decoding at the DAC(for compatible DACs) will be a no go after any digital processing, because MQA stores some code in the least significant bits of the file. so any small change would corrupt part of the code... that's one of the really dumb aspects of MQA IMO.
I can't imagine modern hifi without some room correction for speakers and at the very least some EQ for headphones.


----------



## ItsAllInMyHead

castleofargh said:


> the complete MQA decoding by a MQA compatible DAC shouldn't work if any digital action was done to the file. the DAC can still play the purely wave part of the file like any DAC or player always can. or you could decode stuff partially on the software side with whatever app that might do that before applying some digital changes like an EQ and then send it all to a DAC for non MQA reconstruction of the analog signal. but as far as I understand, the complete MQA decoding at the DAC(for compatible DACs) will be a no go after any digital processing, because MQA stores some code in the least significant bits of the file. so any small change would corrupt part of the code... that's one of the really dumb aspects of MQA IMO.
> I can't imagine modern hifi without some room correction for speakers and at the very least some EQ for headphones.



@castleofargh thank you for the clear and "not dumbed down" answer.  This makes perfect sense.  I add additional love for the ref4 software for simply passing the MQA "signal"? to the DAC w/o affecting it, if that's how ref4 actually handles it.  

If it's a known limitation of the MQA format and/or a "feature" to keep MQA pure back to the purported master, then that's just part of the game.  As I learn more about how MQA works, I'm thankful for it in the respect that it allows me instant access to some really great stuff through Tidal that I otherwise would not experience (I still have not been able to verify if certain non-MQA albums are from the same masters as their MQA counterparts to truly A/B, but oh well).  On the other hand, it sure seems to have some quirks.

I've noticed that while playing back a DSD64 track (through the plugin first) the sample rate shows 176400, but theres no correction / no sliders etc.  Note, it says clearly in Audirvana that using plugins for DSD real time should not be done, but I was experimenting.  So, this seems "normal".  However, I was wondering where it gets the sample rate.  When I play the same song from PCM 24/96 all works as expected.  Note - the tracks are "Impromptu" from the iFi iDAC2 Sampler from Sound Liaison (DSD64 and 24/96 versions).  When I switch to the SW version (untick AU use) set output to ref4 system wide (and remove exclusive access) set system output to DAC.  All sample rates are 96K even when playing a 44.1 track.  Still learning....

-Cheers


----------



## castleofargh

all digital processing done by the computer will be done on PCM formats. so you need to convert the DSD signal to PCM and then apply something like Sonarworks. a true DSD DAC can either get the DSD without any processing done, or play a processed PCM signal instead of DSD. 
but you can't expect DSD to be digitally tuned while still being DSD. 
it's the same issue as MQA, except that MQA being made to look like PCM, instead of not playing when you set the wrong stuff, anything can at least play some part of it under all circumstances. but only untouched MQA can be fully decoded in the MQA DAC(retrieving all the bits and applying the apodizing filter of Meridian).
so for DSD sources, I expect the sample rate you read to be the sample rate of the PCM signal once converted from PCM to allow for EQ. and for MQA I expect that whatever format you get while being able to use Sonarwork, will be lower than what the file can do. like maybe 96 when the file untouched into a DAC could do 192khz? I still don't know exactly if MQA uses always the same option or if they change depending on needs and signal content. the patent shows several options but I don't know which one is used on a given file so that's about the extent of my educated guess. 

there is of course another aspect here, when you set your output devices (real or virtual), you usually have them set at a given resolution. maybe that's what you're seeing in the end and why even a 44.1 track ends up at 96khz? 


to be fair with MQA and DSD for a second before being biased again^_^, they're not the only non PCM formats. it's the same idea with aac or mp3. except that the full conversion to PCM in the computer is expected from the get go for those lossy formats. that is not the case with DSD or MQA. at least not in their ideal use, which leads to compromising. do we care about some timing resolution we're unlikely to hear, or about getting a more balanced signature? I always vote for a signature I prefer, so to me MQA or DSD are only annoying formats and I have no love for them. but everybody can have their own priorities of course. I'm not saying that mine are the "good priorities" ^_^.


----------



## ItsAllInMyHead (Dec 15, 2017)

@castleofargh

Once again, my hat's off for a great explanation.  I have no love for any of the formats at all.... Overall, I'd generally prefer lossless all things remaining equal.  I admit that I get lost in CoDecs vs. containers vs. compression algorithms etc. etc. etc.  I leave that to the experts.  If I have to go with something lossy, I'd prefer it be originated from a great master and put back together again as well as could be expected given bandwidth and/or related file size limitations.  Overall, I'm interested in MQA solely as it relates to being available on Tidal which is my only source (at the moment) for lossless streaming music and having picked up a (relatively) cheap DAC that renders MQA to play along with it.  Their HiFi is already lossless (and I can download the files), the MQA is just a fun toy to try and play with that I can only stream.

If I run into you at a CanJam or whatever/whenever IRL, a beverage of choice on me.  Last question for now.  Given that you're the (or a) moderator on the sound science forum, I did a quick look over there for indications of a book / primer / website ala Digital Music for Dummies....  any suggestions?  The folks here are usually delightful in their handling of noobs, but I'd like to further educate myself without being a bother (and maybe I can pay it forward).

-Cheers


----------



## castleofargh

as long as it was in the context of using Sonarwork I could pretend not to be totally off topic, but now I can't ^_^.  still for the sake of being slightly constructive, I'd suggest starting with https://www.xiph.org/video/ . some people will disagree with a few points in the videos, but to this day I can't think of a clearer and more informative general presentation on digital signal.


----------



## ItsAllInMyHead

castleofargh said:


> as long as it was in the context of using Sonarwork I could pretend not to be totally off topic, but now I can't ^_^.  still for the sake of being slightly constructive, I'd suggest starting with https://www.xiph.org/video/ . some people will disagree with a few points in the videos, but to this day I can't think of a clearer and more informative general presentation on digital signal.



It was definitely within the context (but not necessarily the strict confines) of using Sonarworks.  

Very much appreciated.


----------



## MadMike

Solrighal said:


> I have no idea regarding the hi-res aspect (although I'm surprised it makes any difference) but you dodged a bullet with True-Fi. I thought it sounded pretty awful & night & day different to the full Ref 4 product when used with my HD 650.



Well, I have True-Fi and it makes my Focal Elears sound fantastic! Takes away the upper-mid suck-out and everything sounds terrific. Money well spent. Haven't heard full Ref 4 though.


----------



## Kdubbs82

Anyone try this on the hd600s?


----------



## Bern2

Kdubbs82 said:


> Anyone try this on the hd600s?


I have tried Ref 3 with the 600's.  There's not as much correction needed as the 600's were a lot flatter (as compared to the HD800's which I use Sonarworks exclusively).  It's a free trial period....you have nothing to lose by trying it.

Bern


----------



## Mr H

quick questions. I'm using the sonarworks headphone trial. (I'm reading the manuals and stuff but can't find this)
* the calibration profiles just have 1 per headphone, the average. the paid version has some more profiles?
* the frequence response are set. can I modify them in the paid version? flat response is great but I'd like to modify them a little bit to my preferences
thanks.


----------



## Bern2

Mr H said:


> quick questions. I'm using the sonarworks headphone trial. (I'm reading the manuals and stuff but can't find this)
> * the calibration profiles just have 1 per headphone, the average. the paid version has some more profiles?
> * the frequence response are set. can I modify them in the paid version? flat response is great but I'd like to modify them a little bit to my preferences
> thanks.


I'm assuming you are using Ref 4?  There should be some bass and treble minor adjustments.  Not familiar with the True-Fi software.  You can send your headphones in and have a specific file customized for your headphone.

Bern


----------



## MadMike

Mr H said:


> quick questions. I'm using the sonarworks headphone trial. (I'm reading the manuals and stuff but can't find this)
> * the calibration profiles just have 1 per headphone, the average. the paid version has some more profiles?
> * the frequence response are set. can I modify them in the paid version? flat response is great but I'd like to modify them a little bit to my preferences
> thanks.



With True-Fi you can raise the bass response and the treble response (treble is age-dependent- you cannot change specific frequencies).


----------



## Mr H

I saw that, but they pivot on the middle freqs like more bass-more treble, I wanted to raise the middle a bit lol
and I'm trying both, true-fi and sonarworks


----------



## groovyd (Dec 26, 2017)

You can only 'tilt' the response bass or treble or select one of their other fixed presets, nothing fully customizable though that would indeed be an incredible feature.  To that end I still require following Sonarworks with a quality EQ plugin to shape the exact response I like.  Fortunately for me CanOpener offers the curve I want while at the same time performing excellent headphone crossfeed.  I run the two together from within menuBus Pro (https://www.menubus.audio/) on a Mac and it is a perfect solution.  You could also add in additional plugins to the bus and there are a few free ones included to choose from (like basic apple eq) but I haven't so far needed any more then Sonarworks + CanOpener.

I had hoped they would have included full target curve customizability in Ref 4 but sadly it wasn't such a step-function upgrade over Ref 3.  It is still very much worth purchasing imho one of the best things you can spend money on in pursuit of great sound regardless of your gear.


----------



## Mr H

hmm having to eq after sonarworks seem like it's not what I'm looking for. 
day 2 trying, the best setting I find with the lcd2 is flat but setting dry/wet to 50ish%. more than 70% is too bright for me, less mids than I like. 
from the freq response curve they have on the lcd2 shows mids a little bit prominent and the software takes some of the mids to make it "flat". but what I like about the lcd2 are the mids lol don't take away the mids. 
otherwise the software looks well made and practical. 0 glitches so far. not being able to customize the curve takes points on the usability scale for me


----------



## Roll

Mr H said:


> hmm having to eq after sonarworks seem like it's not what I'm looking for.
> day 2 trying, the best setting I find with the lcd2 is flat but setting dry/wet to 50ish%. more than 70% is too bright for me, less mids than I like.
> from the freq response curve they have on the lcd2 shows mids a little bit prominent and the software takes some of the mids to make it "flat". but what I like about the lcd2 are the mids lol don't take away the mids.
> otherwise the software looks well made and practical. 0 glitches so far. not being able to customize the curve takes points on the usability scale for me



U can mess around with - Predefined B&K 1974 speaker and the dry/wet settings...


----------



## cloudkicker (Dec 29, 2017)

For me the idea of using True-Fi is to flatten the headphones I'm using so I'm not using an EQ, but for those that want to and are using a Mac there is a way to do it. I'm using Ghz CanOpener and Ghz Midside Matrix with Audio Hijack and then set True-Fi as the output device for Audio Hijack. Put in an EQ in the workflow and you can change the sound as needed.


----------



## MattTCG

hoping to see a profile for the hd660 S soon


----------



## techboy

In Ref 4, I am unable to use Ref 3 files. Says Invalid File. Can you please help me?


----------



## groovyd

I keep getting crashes using a MacBook Pro, with Zoom Audio Interface over thunderbolt while trying to get a speaker calibration using Ref 4.  Have reported it to support but wondering if anyone else has had issues with Ref4 measurement app crashing or indicating completely inaccurate speaker distances?  for example speakers are 15' from listening position and it thinks they are 2'.


----------



## Roll (Jan 13, 2018)

Looks like Tru-Fi is coming to Android in 4 or 5 months from now?
And 80 more headphones in the first quarter?

Interview with Sonarworks CES 2018



Sonarworks Storms CES with its revolutionary headphone-enhancing Tru-Fi app
https://www.digitaltrends.com/home-theater/ces-2018-sonarworks-tru-fi-interview/


----------



## groovyd

I hope they release a companion app that somehow slips their custom corrections into the apple music app output automatically... like a systemwide but for iOS where you can choose your custom profile via companion app somehow and it just works across the entire system.


----------



## wompa164

groovyd said:


> While systemwide and Sonarworks is ultimately an amazing set of tools I found Systemwide to be a little buggy and eventually switched to loading my Sonarworks calibrations into menuBus for Mac instead which is an unbelievably impressive app that has all the features of Systemwide for free and then some and is under active development and adding incredible new features every month now.  Plugin presets, keyboard shortcuts, ability to use any plugins you want...  highly recommended!
> 
> https://www.menubus.audio
> 
> And again, this is not a replacement for Sonarworks but a replacement for Systemwide on Macs only.  You still need Sonarworks for great calibrations.  menuBus also has a facebook group where the developer polls the user base for the next great feature of the month every month.



Do you know of any comparable alternative for Windows? I am having stability issues with their driver on Windows and their support team is taking their sweet time in responding. I think their product as a whole is excellent but their systemwide really needs more work.


----------



## groovyd

wompa164 said:


> Do you know of any comparable alternative for Windows? I am having stability issues with their driver on Windows and their support team is taking their sweet time in responding. I think their product as a whole is excellent but their systemwide really needs more work.



I do not... it would be nice but I am not sure Windows Audio layer supports systemwide audio chains natively?  Could be why it is buggy? Might be wrong, perhaps things have changed in Win10. Get a Mac


----------



## yates7592 (Jan 23, 2018)

removed


----------



## scarfacegt

Anyone got the sonaworks true-fi app today? Beta test version.I have signed up many times today,but havent recived mail back with details.Only got an mail with free trial reference 4 version earlier today.,but not the true-fi app.


----------



## yates7592

Whats the difference between Reference and True-Fi?


----------



## Roll

scarfacegt said:


> Anyone got the sonaworks true-fi app today? Beta test version.I have signed up many times today,but havent recived mail back with details.Only got an mail with free trial reference 4 version earlier today.,but not the true-fi app.



 On Android, looks like it is the same as an old app named - ' Soundigo'..so search that.


----------



## Roll

yates7592 said:


> Whats the difference between Reference and True-Fi?



Quote from Rūdolfs Bundulis, CTO at Sonarworks

The technology is the same, and as you correctly concluded - they are made for different marker layers. Also - you can really compare True-Fi to plugin, True-Fi is the consumer equivalent of Systemwide (without the simulations and speaker mode). And as they evolve they will both diverge by receiving features relevant for their target audience.


----------



## mtmercer

@yates7592  - Here are differences I know between Reference 4 systemwide and True-Fi apps.

True-fi only uses a minimum phase filter (no pre-ringing but has phase shift)
Reference 4 allows selection between minimum phase, linear phase, and zero latency.  I'm not sure of the filter method in zero latency.  The linear phase filter has pre-ringing but no phase shift.  pre-ringing is not audible to me personally.  I use linear phase which matches the filter method I have on my DAC.  When I used the default minimum phase fast roll-off filter on my DAC I would get a headache from the phase shifts, so I use linear filtering as much as possible YMMV.

True-fi is designed to be simple and easy to use.
Reference 4 systemwide has more options and thus is a little more complex but still user friendly IMO.

True-fi allow the bass to be tilted up or down and the treble to be tiled up or down after the calibration profile is applied.
Reference 4 allows for more modifications after the calibration profile is applied; such as:
0-100% "wet" (I think this means % of calibration applied)
Tilt - The frequency response can be linearly tilted toward bass or treble, I like this function a lot
Bass boost - Just the bass can be increased or decreased
headphone or speaker simulation - other headphones and speakers can be simulated

Reference 4 includes a plug-in version but I have not used it.  Also note my experience with the True-fi app is from a few months ago.  Sonarworks may have added a few new features since then.  I am currently a happy Reference 4 Systemwide user.


----------



## scarfacegt

Do you have to have the headphones connected straight to the mobile phone,or can you use an dac/amp like audioquest dragonfly with the mobile phone when using true-fi? Or will the dragonfly ruined the signal with its dac/equlizer?


----------



## scarfacegt

Have tried the app connected direct to the phone.On both phone and computer,i feel that the sound opens up and sounds more alive.With the true -fi off,its like a carpet hiding the music.It sounds more closed in and muffled (not good at describing sound  )


----------



## scarfacegt (Jan 27, 2018)

Tried the audioquest dragonfly black with samsung s7.Didnt get any sound when using tru-fi app.But then i deleted the usb audio player.And after i did that,i got sound.It looks like the usb player and dragonfly connect to eachother when the dragonfly is connected to the s7.I have tried the tru-fi app with spotify.Wasnt sure if the external dac/amp,would ruin the true-fi signal,but messaged sonaworks about this,and they said it should work fine.

The sound is really good with true-fi on.It comes more alive and gets more real and detailed.When i turn it off,the music sounds closed in/dark/muffled (not good at describing  )

My only complainment so far,is that when listening to spotify,the music stoppes often,and the app freezes.So it have to be restarted.Its frustraitning.So i will try delete the app and install it again and see if it helps.But this is of course the beta test version,so i guess it will come some updates once in a while and fix the bugs.


----------



## stuck limo

Does anyone know if I can use the Reference 4 to get my monitors flat, WITHOUT a microphone? (no need to measure the room currently)


----------



## jnorris

stuck limo said:


> Does anyone know if I can use the Reference 4 to get my monitors flat, WITHOUT a microphone? (no need to measure the room currently)


The microphone is used to measure the resultant frequency response of your speakers and the room interactions at your listening location.  Unless you know what flat should be and can perfectly identify those frequency ranges that need adjustment, you'll need the microphone to measure the deviations so the software can adjust for them.


----------



## stuck limo

I just purchased Sonarworks Headphone edition and no sound is coming through my PC when I utilize it now. I never had an issue with the free trial. Please let me know what I'm doing wrong or how to fix this. I have attached photos. There is no sound whenever the program is up and running. The program functions and the buttons all work when it's running, but there is no sound at any point. I also emailed Sonarworks about this.


----------



## Roll

stuck limo said:


> I just purchased Sonarworks Headphone edition and no sound is coming through my PC when I utilize it now. I never had an issue with the free trial. Please let me know what I'm doing wrong or how to fix this. I have attached photos. There is no sound whenever the program is up and running. The program functions and the buttons all work when it's running, but there is no sound at any point. I also emailed Sonarworks about this.



Did u check the manual, u have to play with the Playback Devices- Speakers under Sound and have the dac and Sonarworks on..  ...and sometimes restart especially if u are connecting to my Geek Pulse, ha

https://www.sonarworks.com/reference/tutorials/studio-edition-manual


----------



## Roll

And under Properties, make sure Levels are- at least 'high' and use the dac physically for the volume controll


----------



## stuck limo

I also made sure both the DAC and the Sonarworks (both separately) were the audio source. I have also made sure the volume was up. I get no sound.


----------



## Roll

stuck limo said:


> I also made sure both the DAC and the Sonarworks (both separately) were the audio source. I have also made sure the volume was up. I get no sound.



Reload the program, input the Licenses, restart...and check Speaker settings...and can try, right click the speaker -Troubleshoot sound problems.

When I went from a beta version from last year, I had to use Revo Uninstaller (free version is ok) and remove 'all'..and restart, reload the program...that work. 

Hope it works for u...time to sleep


----------



## stuck limo

Roll said:


> Reload the program, input the Licenses, restart...and check Speaker settings...and can try, right click the speaker -Troubleshoot sound problems.
> 
> When I went from a beta version from last year, I had to use Revo Uninstaller (free version is ok) and remove 'all'..and restart, reload the program...that work.
> 
> Hope it works for u...time to sleep



I uninstalled the entire program, reloaded it, and it worked. Very weird.


----------



## Roll

stuck limo said:


> I uninstalled the entire program, reloaded it, and it worked. Very weird.



Their update is not automatic..notice a few more headphones supported on their webpage that was not on my list such as Sony MDR-Z7
https://www.sonarworks.com/reference/headphones

On my list, I have this twice (swhp) - ATH-M70x, but different with the '-' between Audio and Technica

Audio-Technica ATH-M70x Average
Audio Technica ATH-M70x Average

So I added my License again - no changes to the Calibration Profile
Reloaded the trial program, no change to my Calibration Profile
Delete the Calibration Profile under Sonarworks Projects
Reload my License. The headphone/iem list was loaded to the latest as shown on their Sonarworks webpage (True-fi has a few more)

Still double of the ATH-M70x on my Calibration Profile


----------



## 329161 (Feb 18, 2018)

Sorry if this has been asked, but is the android Trufi compatible with USB dac playback?
This app, which is still in beta, is really awesome. It actually makes my Sony 1A listenable and enjoyable. Heck it even makes my Beats Mixr and Studio 2 half decent. Highly recommended!


----------



## swspiers

Hey all.

I'm wrapping up the best weekend of headphone listening I've had in years.  What Reference 4 does with my HE-400i's is astounding, although the Averaged profile is way too bassy, to the point it distorts.  But setting them to simulate the HD-650 is perfect.

Speaking of the 650's, my 6XX is probably even more expressive than the 400i's.  Setting them to simulate the B&K 1974 speaker profile sounds so much like my main speaker rig that it's scary.  I can't rave enough about this software.  I get that not everyone will react like I am, but it hits all my buttons. 

So far my Grado's have not benefited, but I think next week I'll fine-tune with the "Wet" function, hear if they improve at all.  The problem with Grado's is like them to sound like...Grado's.


----------



## wompa164

stuck limo said:


> I just purchased Sonarworks Headphone edition and no sound is coming through my PC when I utilize it now. I never had an issue with the free trial. Please let me know what I'm doing wrong or how to fix this. I have attached photos. There is no sound whenever the program is up and running. The program functions and the buttons all work when it's running, but there is no sound at any point. I also emailed Sonarworks about this.



After a day or two of use, my machine developed the same issue - I think there is an issue with their systemwide driver. Please let us know if you get a response, the company was very unhelpful for me as a prospective buyer and I decided not to give them my money for the time being.


----------



## stuck limo (Feb 22, 2018)

wompa164 said:


> After a day or two of use, my machine developed the same issue - I think there is an issue with their systemwide driver. Please let us know if you get a response, the company was very unhelpful for me as a prospective buyer and I decided not to give them my money for the time being.



I ended up uninstalling literally everything (shredded/deleted files/registry using IObit Uninstaller) and re-installing the program from scratch. It fixed the issue and I have had no issues since. They were actually quick to respond to me (within a day or two) but by then I had already fixed the issue.

On a side note, does anyone know how to bring up the mids in this program? Bass and treble, yes. I have found no way to adjust the mids.


----------



## davehutch

stuck limo said:


> I ended up uninstalling literally everything (shredded/deleted files/registry using IObit Uninstaller) and re-installing the program from scratch. It fixed the issue and I have had no issues since. They were actually quick to respond to me (within a day or two) but by then I had already fixed the issue.
> 
> On a side note, does anyone know how to bring up the mids in this program? Bass and treble, yes. I have found no way to adjust the mids.


Can you not lower the bass and treble so the mids become 'relatively' higher?


----------



## stuck limo (Feb 22, 2018)

davehutch said:


> Can you not lower the bass and treble so the mids become 'relatively' higher?



Yeah, I'll have to experiment. I'm sure it'll work relatively fine. I really like this program for the Senn 800, generally speaking. The program works well for the Senn 600, but it's a very minor change. Do not like it for m40x or V-Moda M-100 at all. Would have to experiment with some more settings probably. Well worth the 99 bucks or whatever it costs.

I'm waiting for True-Fi to get updated so I can use it on my new LG V20.  They need the V-Moda XS and M-80 on there.


----------



## davehutch

I bought the True-Fi app yesterday after receiving the CanJam discount code. Worth the money for my HD6xx. Wider soundstage, extended bass and more realistic cymbals and brushes.


----------



## stuck limo

davehutch said:


> I bought the True-Fi app yesterday after receiving the CanJam discount code. Worth the money for my HD6xx. Wider soundstage, extended bass and more realistic cymbals and brushes.



What phone are you using?


----------



## davehutch

I meant the desktop app for the Mac


----------



## pichu

I don’t have any of my gear with me except a pair of HyperX Cloud II. ( Takstar Pro 80 rebranded ) , and they sound much better with an EQ. Sound is more full, the veil is removed and the bass begins to appear. It makes the music louder without getting rid of the soundstage and depth, while also enhancing the bass and the timbre universally. I dig it and can’t wait to try it with all my stuff when I get home in a couple weeks!


----------



## Bern2

Anyone here in on the beta test for Android version of True-Fi?  I'm looking forward to the release.

Bern


----------



## RudeWolf

I'll let you know once it's ready to roll out. Android is running pretty okay, but still there are a bunch of fixes to implement. We actually got the Spotify integration to work.


----------



## cloudkicker

RudeWolf said:


> I'll let you know once it's ready to roll out. Android is running pretty okay, but still there are a bunch of fixes to implement. We actually got the Spotify integration to work.



Is Spotify the only streaming service to be integrated into the app?


----------



## Roll

Bern2 said:


> Anyone here in on the beta test for Android version of True-Fi?  I'm looking forward to the release.
> 
> Bern



Must had tried since November 2016 under another name Soundigo Music APP Beta. 
A few months back, reloaded the updated program, and she still does not play my loaded Hi Res Audio. Hopefully, they will make True-Fi app to work with Tidal.


----------



## stuck limo

Bern2 said:


> Anyone here in on the beta test for Android version of True-Fi?  I'm looking forward to the release.
> 
> Bern



Yeah, I use it all the time. It sounds fantastic. I actually prefer it for my m40x over Sonarworks Reference 4. Sonarworks makes the vocals a bit hazy or unfocused; True-Fi doesn't seem to do that. I've had it ever since it was called Soundigo.


----------



## stuck limo

Here are my settings on my V20, for anyone interested:


----------



## 329161

Bern2 said:


> Anyone here in on the beta test for Android version of True-Fi?  I'm looking forward to the release.
> 
> Bern


I'm on it. My main gripes, at this stage are - you have to download the headphone profile everytime you close the app, and there's no gapless playback, and no usb dac support. Otherwise I love it. Makes my Beats headphones sound very good....seriously.


----------



## Bern2

dcfac73 said:


> I'm on it. My main gripes, at this stage are - you have to download the headphone profile everytime you close the app, and there's no gapless playback, and no usb dac support. Otherwise I love it. Makes my Beats headphones sound very good....seriously.


You seem to have a couple of the portable headphones I'm aiming to fix...the MDR-1ABT...and the B&W P7 (I have the wireless version)..  what's your quick thoughts on those?  I currently use the Sony NWZ-A17 for both...but the EQ bands don't fall in the range where they need to be fixed.

Bern

PM me if you think I'm ranging too far off topic.


----------



## 329161

Bern2 said:


> You seem to have a couple of the portable headphones I'm aiming to fix...the MDR-1ABT...and the B&W P7 (I have the wireless version)..  what's your quick thoughts on those?  I currently use the Sony NWZ-A17 for both...but the EQ bands don't fall in the range where they need to be fixed.
> 
> Bern
> 
> PM me if you think I'm ranging too far off topic.


The P7 Wireless improves significantly with True-Fi. I haven't tried it with the 1abt (I don't think it's supported yet). The 1a is significantly better with the app. The sound is evened out very well, and clarity increases significantly.


----------



## Bern2

dcfac73 said:


> The P7 Wireless improves significantly with True-Fi. I haven't tried it with the 1abt (I don't think it's supported yet). The 1a is significantly better with the app. The sound is evened out very well, and clarity increases significantly.


Great news...thx for your input.

Bern


----------



## stuck limo (Mar 3, 2018)

.


----------



## swspiers

I just bought the Reference 4 Systemwide for headphones.  After the 21-day trial, it was a no-brainer for me.  Excellent software!


----------



## chungjun (Mar 4, 2018)

If I use Spotify on Windows 10 machine... do I need to 'route' or use a 3rd party software (e.g. Equalify / Audio Router) to ensure all audio are routed through True-Fi?

Or by setting True-Fi as default device in system settings is sufficient and True-Fi will on default take over all sound processing duty?


----------



## RudeWolf

True-Fi will sit on your system as an audio device besides your DAC. Just tell your OS to use it for output and in True-Fi UI select your DAC. Therefore all audio will be processed.


----------



## donunus

Please make an ios app for us that use an iphone/ipad based system that we connect to a dac/amp. Please don't change the curves to compromise for an iphone headphone jack's power output capability though and just use curves that you would normally use for a windows based system since most serious listeners that use this app will most likely be needing an amp anyway due to the lower gain to compensate for clipping.


----------



## donunus

I’m curious as to which variant of the m40x was used for calibration. There are two different pad versions. One is the stiffer pad model and the other with the same pads used as the m50x which is softer. The ones with the harder pads are more v shaped with less mids which could be the reason why I’m getting a weird peak at about 3khz after calibration.


----------



## chungjun

With upcoming CanJam in Singapore... any special offers / promo code for Sonarworks?


----------



## Roll

chungjun said:


> With upcoming CanJam in Singapore... any special offers / promo code for Sonarworks?



U should ask RudeWolf (Member of the Trade: Sonarworks) for a discount for 'all' Head-fi readers.


----------



## chungjun

Roll said:


> U should ask RudeWolf (Member of the Trade: Sonarworks) for a discount for 'all' Head-fi readers.



Hahaa! That would be neat but I should be clearer, I meant, if Sonarworks will be there and hold a promotion for those who attended upcoming CanJam held in Singapore.


----------



## davehutch

chungjun said:


> Hahaa! That would be neat but I should be clearer, I meant, if Sonarworks will be there and hold a promotion for those who attended upcoming CanJam held in Singapore.


They just did a 20% off after CanJam NY so I imagine there will be another one for people on their mailing list. I was using a trial version at the time so received an email from them,


----------



## chungjun

Payers answered. Sonarworks spring sale is ongoing!


----------



## CoffeeCutie (Mar 24, 2018)

--- re-posted to True-fi specific forum --

Just officially bought True-Fi on sale after a few iffy trials I had when the product first came out.  Holy smokes!

Fostex t50rp: Their DSP takes my modded set way farther than I'd ever have imagined.  So spacious, extended, and not subtle at all.    Haven't listened with these in a while, now they have been on my head for the last 3 hours.

beyer 770 pro 32:  Fixes up a lot, the set physically can't go "way low" (in my own tests) but with the DSP the beyer spikes are all paved smooth.

-Jess


----------



## Roll

Their Spring Sale is about to end in 13 hours:

https://storeus.sonarworks.com/

https://store.sonarworks.com/


----------



## wompa164

I would be weary of purchasing until they commit more resources to their development - lots of unfixed bugs and very unresponsive to troubleshooting.

When their systemwide software worked for me it was EXCELLENT, but it still needs more work.


----------



## bobbyblack

Hi,i am testing true-fi software on the windows10 laptop and i don't understand how to set things up on the player and true-fi app.
Usually i use wasapi and asio exclusive modes.
So my questions are:1)need to put direct sound on the foobar and on true-fi choose my dac+exclusive mod ?
Put wasapi on foobar and choose dac without exclusive mod on true-fi?
Or wasapi+exclusive mode on true-fi.
What about asio?
Thanks!


----------



## Roll

Sonarworks adds ultra-human aural-sensory capabilities to their DSP platform.

How Sonarworks delivers a better sound experience? 
Well, we’re very excited to share how we did it through our latest technological achievement.

We thought you may be curious as well, so here’s an exclusive insight into Sonarworks latest ultra-human aural-sensory technology.


----------



## Roll

bobbyblack said:


> Hi,i am testing true-fi software on the windows10 laptop and i don't understand how to set things up on the player and true-fi app.
> Usually i use wasapi and asio exclusive modes.
> So my questions are:1)need to put direct sound on the foobar and on true-fi choose my dac+exclusive mod ?
> Put wasapi on foobar and choose dac without exclusive mod on true-fi?
> ...



I read that Sonarworks is currently - developing ASIO support on Windows.


----------



## LajostheHun

bobbyblack said:


> Hi,i am testing true-fi software on the windows10 laptop and i don't understand how to set things up on the player and true-fi app.
> Usually i use wasapi and asio exclusive modes.
> So my questions are:1)need to put direct sound on the foobar and on true-fi choose my dac+exclusive mod ?
> Put wasapi on foobar and choose dac without exclusive mod on true-fi?
> ...


I use MusicBee but I set it to:  Wasapi and choose sonarworks as the output device, you can choose the actual DAC you wanna use for output inside the True-Fi app set up, and I left the "exclusive mode" unchecked., since I use True-Fi for system wide .


----------



## bobbyblack

LajostheHun said:


> I use MusicBee but I set it to:  Wasapi and choose sonarworks as the output device, you can choose the actual DAC you wanna use for output inside the True-Fi app set up, and I left the "exclusive mode" unchecked., since I use True-Fi for system wide .


Hi,thanks,actually i use both Music Bee for flacs up to 24 /192 and Foobar only for SACD rips.When i check exclusive mode in both i have big problems with the playback on MB and F,when unchecked it is ok.


----------



## T Bone

Although SonarWorks doesn't offer a profile for my Focal Utopia headphones, I downloaded the trial and configured it in JRiver Media Center.
I experimented with the Focal Elar profile and it makes an interesting and useful difference.
I would buy a license for the software if they offered a Utopia profile.  ....until then, I'll sit on my wallet and keep an eye out on the developments.
I have no interest in packing up $4k headphones, insuring them and shipping them to Latvia for 10 days. 

I am going to CanJam SoCal this weekend and will be sure to stop by Sonarworks


----------



## davehutch

Yes, Sonarworks have a request function so if they get enough requests they will create a profile for that model. I've also asked for one for my Visa HP50s.
You can always check beforehand on their website if your model has a profile already.


----------



## EagleWings

T Bone said:


> Although SonarWorks doesn't offer a profile for my Focal Utopia headphones, I downloaded the trial and configured it in JRiver Media Center.



Hey T-Bone, when you say, you configured it in J-River Media Center, you mean you chose the output device as Sonar Works in JMC correct?


----------



## T Bone

EagleWings said:


> Hey T-Bone, when you say, you configured it in J-River Media Center, you mean you chose the output device as Sonar Works in JMC correct?


I was speaking more broadly about the installation and setup.  After installing the software you have to use the "manage plug-ins" feature in Media Center to find the right DLL.  
Then I went into DSP Studio, disabled other plug-ins, activated the SonarWorks plugin and then selected the Focal Elar profile.  

My output device remains unchanged - It's the "HoloAudio ASIO Driver".


----------



## EagleWings

T Bone said:


> I was speaking more broadly about the installation and setup.  After installing the software you have to use the "manage plug-ins" feature in Media Center to find the right DLL.
> Then I went into DSP Studio, disabled other plug-ins, activated the SonarWorks plugin and then selected the Focal Elar profile.
> 
> My output device remains unchanged - It's the "HoloAudio ASIO Driver".



Thanks. That's exactly what I wanted to know. I am glad I asked you that question. I wasn't aware one could use the Sonarworks as the DSP option inside JMC. But then I use Mac. So I am not sure if it is even possible to do it Mac.  Let me check today.


----------



## jnorris

T Bone said:


> Although SonarWorks doesn't offer a profile for my Focal Utopia headphones, I downloaded the trial and configured it in JRiver Media Center.
> I experimented with the Focal Elar profile and it makes an interesting and useful difference.
> I would buy a license for the software if they offered a Utopia profile.  ....until then, I'll sit on my wallet and keep an eye out on the developments.
> I have no interest in packing up $4k headphones, insuring them and shipping them to Latvia for 10 days.
> ...




I'm really surprised to hear that a $4K headphone is improved by $100 software.  At that price the headphones should be damn well perfect!.

I felt conflicted using it with the HE-400i and I only paid $200 for those.


----------



## Solrighal

EagleWings said:


> Thanks. That's exactly what I wanted to know. I am glad I asked you that question. I wasn't aware one could use the Sonarworks as the DSP option inside JMC. But then I use Mac. So I am not sure if it is even possible to do it Mac.  Let me check today.



It works fine in the Mac port of JRiver.


----------



## T Bone

jnorris said:


> I'm really surprised to hear that a $4K headphone is improved by $100 software.  At that price the headphones should be damn well perfect!.


In spirit, I completely agree.  Unfortunately, there's no such thing as a headphone with perfectly flat frequency response.  Right out of the box I knew I wanted a little more out of the bottom end.  Frequency response charts, verified what my ears were telling me.  I wouldn't mind spending the money if I enjoyed the performance improvement.
Gawd only knows the $$$ us head-fi nuts spend on cabling!  ..which probably makes the least audible difference in a system.
So on a "bang-for-the-buck" scale, the SonarWorks package doesn't seem unreasonable to me at all.


----------



## EagleWings

Solrighal said:


> It works fine in the Mac port of JRiver.



Thanks, that's great news. Could you send me a screenshot of where I could do that. I am fairly new to JMC and weren't able to locate the option.


----------



## T Bone

EagleWings said:


> I wasn't aware one could use the Sonarworks as the DSP option inside JMC. But then I use Mac.


I'm not sure if it's the same on a Mac, but here's what it looks like under windows.   After importing the SonarWorks .DLL, the control shows up in DSP studio just like any other component.


----------



## EagleWings

T Bone said:


> I'm not sure if it's the same on a Mac, but here's what it looks like under windows.   After importing the SonarWorks .DLL, the control shows up in DSP studio just like any other component.



Thanks T-Bone. It is the prior step where I am struggling. Meaning, I am not sure how how to import the Sonarworks file into JMC in Mac. Back in January, I tried the trial version of both True-Fi and Ref 4 and I tried to import Sonarworks' compensation curve files into JMC. But I couldn't. So I thought JMC can't do it and went ahead and purchased the True-Fi. Now if it is actually possible to do this in Mac with the Ref 4, I'd like to contact Sonarworks to see if I could surrender the True-Fi license and pay extra and get a Ref 4 license.


----------



## Solrighal

I'm sorry but I stopped using JRMC a year ago because of their continuation with porting. Youre looking for the Sonarworks .VST file though and you load it by clicking 'Manage Plug-ins' button in the screenshot above. Navigate to the folder and Bingo!


----------



## EagleWings

Thanks for your guidance Solrighal. I just tried and found it. But, just as I suspected, only the Ref 4 is supported. I’ll get in touch with SW to surrender my True-Fi and get the license for Ref 4.


----------



## davehutch

T Bone said:


> In spirit, I completely agree.  Unfortunately, there's no such thing as a headphone with perfectly flat frequency response.  Right out of the box I knew I wanted a little more out of the bottom end.  Frequency response charts, verified what my ears were telling me.  I wouldn't mind spending the money if I enjoyed the performance improvement.
> Gawd only knows the $$$ us head-fi nuts spend on cabling!  ..which probably makes the least audible difference in a system.
> So on a "bang-for-the-buck" scale, the SonarWorks package doesn't seem unreasonable to me at all.


So the question I guess we must ask ourselves now is, should we spend £400 on headphones and correct them to ‘studio’ with True-Fi or spend £3,000 to get essentially the same result? Interesting dilemma
Will reviewers now start doing True-Fi vs non True-Fi comparisons I wonder?


----------



## SubMash

davehutch said:


> So the question I guess we must ask ourselves now is, should we spend £400 on headphones and correct them to ‘studio’ with True-Fi or spend £3,000 to get essentially the same result? Interesting dilemma
> Will reviewers now start doing True-Fi vs non True-Fi comparisons I wonder?


Unless true-fi does acoustical linear phase and you have tons of damping available - you won't have things same. Even if we are not talking about harmonics which truefi won't really remove.

But if you need it for a studio - 400£ already gave you good enough results even without EQ. Why would you need 3000£ headphones in studio unless you've used to their sound?


----------



## davehutch

True. I bought True-Fi to use with my Sennheiser HD6xx and it’s absolute heaven so I’ve been very frugal with my purchases, probably partly from being out of work and partly my age. I used to spend plenty on Hi-Fi but I’ve ‘calmed down’ in my old age


----------



## CoffeeCutie

davehutch said:


> So the question I guess we must ask ourselves now is, should we spend £400 on headphones and correct them to ‘studio’ with True-Fi or spend £3,000 to get essentially the same result? Interesting dilemma
> Will reviewers now start doing True-Fi vs non True-Fi comparisons I wonder?



as sonarworks/RudeWolf said at the beginning of the thread, headphone THD is the primary ceiling for “calibrated goodness”.  

I have compared a pair of AEON c through a Magí 3 and modi with tidal and high res files against my headphones that match the true fi criteria- it really does “focus” the sound toward the aeon cleanliness, even the apple EarPods setting xD. 

Truefi does low end better than what is available on AEON.  

I’m all for dsp based solutions, seems like a less costly and more repeatable way to deal with accuracy.   Lots of companies are making low distortion models now....


----------



## jnorris

Comparing my Hifiman HE-400i, Marshall Monitors, Beyerdynamic DT990 Pro, Fostex TR50P vIII, Sony MDR7506, and others, all through the Reference 4, shows very different sonic profiles, even though the software is supposed to flatten them out to a standard.  Frequency response is, by far, only one parameter that makes headphones and speakers sound like they do.


----------



## EagleWings

davehutch said:


> So the question I guess we must ask ourselves now is, should we spend £400 on headphones and correct them to ‘studio’ with True-Fi or spend £3,000 to get essentially the same result? Interesting dilemma
> Will reviewers now start doing True-Fi vs non True-Fi comparisons I wonder?



Headphones have tonality aspecsts, as well as technicality aspects. What True-Fi does is, try to fix the issues in the tonality aspects, by correcting the frequency response. What the expensive headphones like Utopia do better than mid-fi headphones are, technical aspects such as; transient response, resolution, transparency, imaging precision and layering. While these aspects are influenced to a small extent by the tuning, they are more dependent on distortion, driver and design characteristics of the headphones. These are aspects that are inherent to a headphone that True-Fi can’t improve. 

True-Fi can fix tuning/tonality issues of the Elear and make it sound like what Sonarworks considers is the correct FR. But it can’t automatically convert the Elear into a Utopia. I am not justifying the price tag of expensive headphones. Simply pointing out that, the high price you pay for, is towards the improvement in technical performance.


----------



## castleofargh

-there are obviously some headphones with massive resonances or nulls that can hardly be just compensated with convolution without creating a bunch of other issues. 
-then as said, if distortions are high enough, they will make a noticeable difference. not much we can do about that, but logically FR is still a bigger deal as it involves all levels of loudness while distortions are usually -30 -40dB or lower. 
-for generic compensations, there are simply the manufacturing tolerances. a few dB here and there aren't that rare. 
-but there is another parameter to take into account. even if they succeed in EQing 2 headphones the same way, that EQ is based on a microphone on some dummy head. just by using our head instead, we can expect some measure of variations from headphone to headphone. how we will end up placing the headphone for comfort the size of the head and clamping force resulting of it, if one headphone has a small diaphragm and the other has a big one or if one is angled... then the signal bouncing on our ears will create differences, but not necessarily the ones captured by the dummy head. it should be fairly close because, well, we're still humans in shape, but all those reasons can explain why someone may not get 2 headphones to really sound close from one another.


----------



## alphanumerix1

True hi fi for 79 or just get reference 4 for headphones for 99 thoughts?


----------



## jnorris

I opted for Reference 4 because there are more options (wet/dry adjustment, simulations, etc.) that I thought were worth the extra $20.  I don't think headphone profiles for Reference 4 will be as quick to come as they will be for True-Fi, however, the company says the Ref 4 profiles are held to a higher standard.


----------



## Sound Eq

hi everyone is there a profile for campfire cascade as that is really interesting to have


----------



## CoffeeCutie

jnorris said:


> I opted for Reference 4 because there are more options (wet/dry adjustment, simulations, etc.) that I thought were worth the extra $20.  I don't think headphone profiles for Reference 4 will be as quick to come as they will be for True-Fi, however, the company says the Ref 4 profiles are held to a higher standard.



I ended up buying reference 4 too, the wet/dry knob and the multitude of very accurate-feeling simulations into headphones and speaker rigs is totally worth it.   I also have found reference 4 to be more stable by a small margin.  

I mix demos regularly anyway, super stoked to use the extra features- didn't realize how much bigger and mix-centric 4 is  



Sound Eq said:


> hi everyone is there a profile for campfire cascade as that is really interesting to have



Not that I can see/imagine- there are only really full size traditional/studio/mix-centric hifi sets.


----------



## CoffeeCutie

I thought I'd share a view of the many buttons and knobs in reference 4 and it's simple-ness with Tidal.  Quite a bit in there worth fiddling with


----------



## Solrighal

EagleWings said:


> Thanks for your guidance Solrighal. I just tried and found it. But, just as I suspected, only the Ref 4 is supported. I’ll get in touch with SW to surrender my True-Fi and get the license for Ref 4.



I used Ref 3 since it's release & gave True-fi a listen. It did nothing for me. Then I tried Ref 4 and it was so much better. Interestingly, it wasn't the same sound as I got from Ref 3 so something has changed in the algorithm.

Whatever, for me, using HD 650's, Ref 4 is clearly superior.


----------



## Solrighal

CoffeeCutie said:


> I thought I'd share a view of the many buttons and knobs in reference 4 and it's simple-ness with Tidal.  Quite a bit in there worth fiddling with




I also have my speakers set to the French theme. It works wonders beefing up my Dali's in a tiled room. In France too, coincidentally.


----------



## karn1911

Curious experiment: load a flattened curve into Sonarworks and then apply the Harman Headphone Target curve with Equalizer APO.
For any of those that have wanted to hear the Harman Target (which isn't available in Sonarworks.)


----------



## EagleWings (May 1, 2018)

karn1911 said:


> Curious experiment: load a flattened curve into Sonarworks and then apply the Harman Headphone Target curve with Equalizer APO.
> For any of those that have wanted to hear the Harman Target (which isn't available in Sonarworks.)



You would be double compensating if you do that. When you apply the Sonarworks correction to your headphone, it already corrects the tuning of the headphone to Sonarwork's target curve. So adding Harman's curve on top of that, would give you something quite far from a headphone target curve.


----------



## karn1911

EagleWings said:


> You would be double compensating if you do that. When you apply the Sonarworks correction to your headphone, it already corrects the tuning of the headphone to Sonarwork's target curve. So adding Harman's curve on top of that, would give you something quite far from a headphone target curve.



Oh, I see the chart that gets shown is compensated. I stand corrected, I thought it was flattening it as a raw.


----------



## ScareDe2 (May 3, 2018)

My K812 did not sound good after being calibrated by this software. My own equalizations that I do with EqualizerAPO and the Peace extention sound way better. I use the graph provided by innerfidelity on the discord channel discord.gg/yYFY2nC. There, you can go on the measurement board and use the command PDFC:K812:harman for example. Also can compare different headphone on the same graph which is very helpful when trying to emulate another headphone. Command then looks like PDFC:K812,HD600:harman. There are many other command for different purpose. Works better than sonar!







Tutorial for equalizing with APO


----------



## karn1911

ScareDe2 said:


> My K812 did not sound good after being calibrated by this software. My own equalizations that I do with EqualizerAPO and the Peace extention sound way better. I use the graph provided by innerfidelity on the discord channel discord.gg/yYFY2nC. There, you can go on the measurement board and use the command PDFC:K812:harman for example. Also can compare different headphone on the same graph which is very helpful when trying to emulate another headphone. Command then looks like PDFC:K812,HD600:harman. There are many other command for different purpose. Works better than sonar!
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Am I able to download the equalizer settings from these generated graphs somehow?


----------



## ScareDe2

karn1911 said:


> Am I able to download the equalizer settings from these generated graphs somehow?




You must make the equalization on your own like shown in the video. However, I prefer working with the discord graphs. I tried to equalize once with the headroom graph (like in metal571 video) and it was just too troublesome with my K812.


----------



## mtmercer (May 5, 2018)

I really enjoy the Sonarworks Reference 4 profiles for my supported headphones.

I just got a pair of Hifiman HE400i's to use with Sonarworks Reference 4.  The detault HD400i calibration sound has too much bass.  The frequency response shown on the chart shows bass roll off that is much larger than anyone else measuring the HE400i FR.  I understand Sonarworks may measure somewhat differently from someone else, but the relative differences should make sense.  For example, the Sonarwokrs profiles has the HD600 showing much less bass roll off compared to the HE400i where as ever where else I find HD600 compared to HE400i the HD600 has more bass roll off.  Reference attached frequency responses to see what I'm talking about.

Question for Sonarworks reps what may be following this thread -
I have sent Sonarworks support an email stating the same thing above, is there anything else I should do to get Sonarworks to update the HE400i profile?  I know the HD650 and HD600 profiles were updated and improved.


----------



## CoffeeCutie

mtmercer said:


> I really enjoy the Sonarworks Reference 4 profiles for my supported headphones.
> 
> I just got a pair of Hifiman HE400i's to use with Sonarworks Reference 4.  The detault HD400i calibration sound has too much bass.  The frequency response shown on the chart shows bass roll off that is much larger than anyone else measuring the HE400i FR.  I understand Sonarworks may measure somewhat differently from someone else, but the relative differences should make sense.  For example, the Sonarwokrs profiles has the HD600 showing much less bass roll off compared to the HE400i where as ever where else I find HD600 compared to HE400i the HD600 has more bass roll off.  Reference attached frequency responses to see what I'm talking about.
> 
> ...



I experience this too.


----------



## mtmercer

mtmercer said:


> I really enjoy the Sonarworks Reference 4 profiles for my supported headphones.
> 
> I just got a pair of Hifiman HE400i's to use with Sonarworks Reference 4.  The detault HD400i calibration sound has too much bass.  The frequency response shown on the chart shows bass roll off that is much larger than anyone else measuring the HE400i FR.  I understand Sonarworks may measure somewhat differently from someone else, but the relative differences should make sense.  For example, the Sonarwokrs profiles has the HD600 showing much less bass roll off compared to the HE400i where as ever where else I find HD600 compared to HE400i the HD600 has more bass roll off.  Reference attached frequency responses to see what I'm talking about.
> 
> ...



Following up on this, I'm wondering if the amp setup Sonarworks uses to create the HP profiles is not powerful enough to get accurate bass from planar magnetic HPs.  Purely speculation on my part  that that is the cause of the problem.  Hopefully someone with Sonarworks will look into it.


----------



## jnorris

I used to think that the bass boost was excessive, too.  But watching the spectrum analyzer built into Foobar 2000, it appears that the bass I hear is an accurate portrayal of the bass I'm seeing in the analyzer.  That said, I still set the dry/wet to 75%.  I also find the bass to be detailed and tuneful, so I'm not complaining about it's presence.


----------



## mtmercer

jnorris said:


> I used to think that the bass boost was excessive, too.  But watching the spectrum analyzer built into Foobar 2000, it appears that the bass I hear is an accurate portrayal of the bass I'm seeing in the analyzer.  That said, I still set the dry/wet to 75%.  I also find the bass to be detailed and tuneful, so I'm not complaining about it's presence.



Thanks for the personal impression.  I will give the %75 wet a listen.


----------



## MarkF786

One feature that would be great: on the "Simulate" tab, allow users to select any one of the headphone calibration profiles so they can make one pair of headphones sound similar to another.


----------



## orangefridge

Would love to shoot out all the headphones with Sonarworks enabled. Think some of the lower end models might be very close to higher end headphones.


----------



## orangefridge

BTW how do people measure the frequencies with headphones to make a graph? I don't understand how to do it accurately.


----------



## Roll

New update 4.1.0.50 is out- layout changes as shown:

https://www.sonarworks.com/reference

Install on top of my Sonarworks..and restarted Windows 10, worked for me from:
https://www.sonarworks.com/reference/downloads

From the product owner

The sad news:
Simulations have been removed from plugin and systemwide, due to legal issues (some people just don't want the world to simulate anything). 
If you wish to continue using simulations, please do not update your plugin and systemwide to 4.1.


*Sonarworks Establishes Sound Standard “Studio Reference (SR)” for Speakers and Headphones*
Groundbreaking standardization methodology to be followed by release of Sonarworks Reference 4.1

https://sonarworks.com/blog/studio-reference-standard/


----------



## Roll

Reference 4 supports these headphones - more added since last time:

https://www.sonarworks.com/reference/headphones


----------



## Roll

True-Fi supports these headphones

https://www.sonarworks.com/truefi/headphones


----------



## manukmanohar

Finally, my HE-560 HPs have been added. 
Can someone help me understand how i can activate the trial. I went through the manual, it says in the email I should have received activation code. However, not able to find activation code in the welcome mail, I received from sonarworks


----------



## Bern2

manukmanohar said:


> Finally, my HE-560 HPs have been added.
> Can someone help me understand how i can activate the trial. I went through the manual, it says in the email I should have received activation code. However, not able to find activation code in the welcome mail, I received from sonarworks


Email their tech support...they are very helpful.  Just remember the time zone difference!  I am using ref 3 for the Senn HD800.

Bern


----------



## swspiers

Roll said:


> New update 4.1.0.50 is out- layout changes as shown:
> 
> https://www.sonarworks.com/reference
> 
> ...



No-go for me.  I love the simulations, and use them a lot.


----------



## Solrighal

swspiers said:


> No-go for me.  I love the simulations, and use them a lot.



Me too.


----------



## Roll

In case u missed re changes to the update:What's new?

Reference 4.1 is here! Improved accuracy, increased confidence.

https://sonarworks.com/blog/reference-4-release-june/


----------



## rutter

I'm trying to decide whether to buy True-Fi or Reference 4. I'm a headphone user. Finished my True-Fi trial, started a Reference 4 trial. Reference 4 seems pretty unnecessary and not worth spending $20 more on. Am I missing something? On the store page of True-Fi it is stated that sample rates up to 96khz are supported. Does the same apply to Reference 4? I also thought it strange that True-Fi will be continuously getting updated whereas Reference has different editions that eventually you'd have to pay money to upgrade to. The quality of the equalization of both is the same, correct?


----------



## Bern2

rutter said:


> I'm trying to decide whether to buy True-Fi or Reference 4. I'm a headphone user. Finished my True-Fi trial, started a Reference 4 trial. Reference 4 seems pretty unnecessary and not worth spending $20 more on. Am I missing something? On the store page of True-Fi it is stated that sample rates up to 96khz are supported. Does the same apply to Reference 4? I also thought it strange that True-Fi will be continuously getting updated whereas Reference has different editions that eventually you'd have to pay money to upgrade to. The quality of the equalization of both is the same, correct?


I haven't used True-Fi (yet)...but am using ref 3.  I like the "wet/dry" control as to how much correction you'd like to apply.  I'm not sure if True-Fi has that.
Bern


----------



## manukmanohar

Bern2 said:


> I haven't used True-Fi (yet)...but am using ref 3.  I like the "wet/dry" control as to how much correction you'd like to apply.  I'm not sure if True-Fi has that.
> Bern



It doesn't have that . Plus, now there is a sale happening, so reference 4 is cheaper than true fi.


----------



## rutter

True-Fi is at $55 now, so R4 isn't cheaper. I've tried the dry/wet, don't find it useful.


----------



## jnorris

Go for Reference 4.  The Wet/Dry, Linear Phase vs. Zero Latency, and other options are more than worth it.  Ref 4 also provides more information about frequency response adjustments.


----------



## manukmanohar

rutter said:


> True-Fi is at $55 now, so R4 isn't cheaper. I've tried the dry/wet, don't find it useful.



Strange. I was not getting discount on truefi, only reference 4


----------



## Roll

rutter said:


> I'm trying to decide whether to buy True-Fi or Reference 4. I'm a headphone user. Finished my True-Fi trial, started a Reference 4 trial. Reference 4 seems pretty unnecessary and not worth spending $20 more on. Am I missing something? On the store page of True-Fi it is stated that sample rates up to 96khz are supported. Does the same apply to Reference 4? I also thought it strange that True-Fi will be continuously getting updated whereas Reference has different editions that eventually you'd have to pay money to upgrade to. The quality of the equalization of both is the same, correct?



If also using mobile, go for the True Fi
If on the desktop only...the Ref 4 has more 'tuning' function that is worth paying the extra


----------



## rutter

Are we supposed to know for how long the sale will last? Supported sample rates are the same for both, correct?



Roll said:


> If also using mobile, go for the True Fi



Can Reference be used with mobile devices?


----------



## michnix

Is there a way to get Sonarworks and Roon to work together without any glitches/dropouts? 

I am using Roon Server on a dedicated headless Mac mini. I got it to work eventually and I like the improvement but I am experiencing glitches and short dropouts- much like a scratched record- 

Thanks for any help!


----------



## Roll

rutter said:


> Are we supposed to know for how long the sale will last? Supported sample rates are the same for both, correct?
> 
> 
> 
> Can Reference be used with mobile devices?



According to their ad: Summer Sale lasts until the end of June

No mobile for Reference...while True-Fi does have a beta mobile version out


Here's what you get with your True-Fi license:

Unlimited access to our 150+ headphone profiles;
Access to future updates of the software;
1 license = Up to 3 Mac or PC machines simultaneously!
Coming soon: Mobile app for Android and iOS!

http://www.businessinsider.com/sonarworks-true-fi-headphone-software2018-6


----------



## Roll

manukmanohar said:


> Strange. I was not getting discount on truefi, only reference 4



Their ad says (I tried and it work for me on both US and their Worldwide Store):

Add-To-Cart to see the discounted price!


----------



## rutter

Will there be mobile support with Reference 4 eventually?


----------



## Roll

rutter said:


> Will there be mobile support with Reference 4 eventually?



From what I gather, no mobile for Reference 4. The Ref 4 is for a different market than the audio headphone listening group...


----------



## rutter

That's interesting. I really don't see a point to Reference, even if you're a producer. It's also funny to me how with Reference you can tone up and down the treble but having to tilt the lower frequencies in the opposite direction whereas with True-Fi you can tone up the treble by pretending you're older without affecting other frequencies but can't tone it down. Seems like they have some work to do to make more sense out of things. I think I'll have to go with True-Fi. The only thing giving me pause is that it's only a standalone application without plug-ins, right? Can you make the standalone application work fine with the sort of programs you'd use plug-ins?


----------



## dwinnert

I am off this week so was goofing around and picked up a pair of ATH-M50X's on sale at Guitar Center. Always curious how they sounded as they are so polarizing. Seems like people either like them or hate them. Also wanted to try True-Fi and none of my current headphones had profiles, so I was able to kill two birds with one beer.

Anyhow, I like the M50X's.....but I really like them using True-Fi.

But, how hard would it be to just make your own EQ profile? Or is True-Fi doing some other type of magic that an EQ cannot duplicate?


----------



## rutter

dwinnert said:


> But, how hard would it be to just make your own EQ profile? Or is True-Fi doing some other type of magic that an EQ cannot duplicate?



Money questions. I already bought True-Fi but very much wondering about this. I wouldn't be surprised if they aren't doing anything awfully special.


----------



## thecrow

dwinnert said:


> I am off this week so was goofing around and picked up a pair of ATH-M50X's on sale at Guitar Center. Always curious how they sounded as they are so polarizing. Seems like people either like them or hate them. Also wanted to try True-Fi and none of my current headphones had profiles, so I was able to kill two birds with one beer.
> 
> Anyhow, I like the M50X's.....but I really like them using True-Fi.
> 
> But, how hard would it be to just make your own EQ profile? Or is True-Fi doing some other type of magic that an EQ cannot duplicate?


nothing wrong with the athm50x

great value for money - solid build, cable options


----------



## Mr H

oh crap
is the summer sale over?


----------



## Richter Di

My Reference 4 Headphone Edition couldn’t be started anymore. Windows said that the progam could suddenly not be found. So de-installed and re-installed. Now my licence code does not work any longer. What
Anybodyelse with similar problems?


----------



## sup27606 (Jul 15, 2018)

I am not sure what’s happening, but the true-fi software is crashing 70% of the time when used in conjunction with Audirvana. This seems to be happening every time I start a song that doesn’t match the sampling rate of the previous one being played. I don’t think I tweaked any settings in Audirvana except select the resampling algorithm to SoX and setting forced upsampling to 2x. I was really considering buying it since it made some subtle but noteworthy improvements to my Sennheiser 6xx. Has anyone else experienced this or have any suggestions to fix. I will take it up next with the company.

As for the impression, What it did to the 6xx was introduce the sub-bass where it was non-existant before, lower a mid bass hump (less cuppy vocals) and filled in some dips in the treble region. This has the effect of improving the ambient sounds in the recording like the brushing of clothes and smacking of lips of the artists that increase realism and resolution. Also the better extension of the treble means better imaging, texture and sparkle in classical recordings. Interestingly, the treble improvements are accomplished without sacrificing the smoothness of the 6xx at all, in any of the variety of recordings I listened, from the newest to the late 50’s. Please note, all the above improvements are subtle, not night and day, but it just takes you beyond those few extra miles that opens up a new arena of realism. The very subtle differences with a flat frequency response also shows, how natural sounding the 6xx is to begin with, with the right amps of course.

If this works without crashing most of the time, it would be a winner in my view.


----------



## rutter

You're using a Sennheiser 6XX and you're impressed by an improvement in the brushing of clothes and smacking of lips? Are you listening to asmr? That must be one hell of a headphone because the differences I hear with an HD800S and an LCD-X are much less subtle.


----------



## sup27606

rutter said:


> That must be one hell of a headphone



Exactly my opinion!


----------



## apollogreed

Just sent in my HD800 for some individual calibration, shipping turned out to be pretty pricey (here from Canada) but oh well, I'm just hoping not to go through what @groovyd went through last year. If all goes according to plan hopefully I'll have properly calibrated cans by the time my new V281 comes in .   

I did notice @groovyd  sent in his headphones with his custom cables. Were we supposed to do that? Should I have sent in my Impact Balanced cable with my Senns?


----------



## groovyd

apollogreed said:


> Just sent in my HD800 for some individual calibration, shipping turned out to be pretty pricey (here from Canada) but oh well, I'm just hoping not to go through what @groovyd went through last year. If all goes according to plan hopefully I'll have properly calibrated cans by the time my new V281 comes in .
> 
> I did notice @groovyd  sent in his headphones with his custom cables. Were we supposed to do that? Should I have sent in my Impact Balanced cable with my Senns?



I don't think it makes a big difference.  I really just did it for convenience of them having proper connectors for it but I am sure they already do and most likely just use their own cables in their calibration rig.


----------



## jaakkopasanen

I created eq settings for over 700 headphone models and when combined with EqualizerAPO they are sort of budget True-Fi. There is a thread about this here and the project can be found in Github: https://github.com/jaakkopasanen/AutoEq.

Unfortunately I don't have True-Fi nor any headphones supported by it so I cannot compare it to AutoEQ myself. I would appreciate anyone using True-Fi trying out AutoEQ and reporting back with how they compare and if one is better than the other.


----------



## Richter Di

jaakkopasanen said:


> I created eq settings for over 700 headphone models and when combined with EqualizerAPO they are sort of budget True-Fi. There is a thread about this here and the project can be found in Github: https://github.com/jaakkopasanen/AutoEq.
> 
> Unfortunately I don't have True-Fi nor any headphones supported by it so I cannot compare it to AutoEQ myself. I would appreciate anyone using True-Fi trying out AutoEQ and reporting back with how they compare and if one is better than the other.



Great idea.


----------



## Roll

This page lists the release notes from every production version of Sonarworks Reference software.
Current: Reference 4.1.4 
Date of release: 23/07/2018

Sonarworks Reference 4 Release Notes
https://sonarworks.com/blog/reference-4-release-notes/


----------



## rutter

By the way, your HD650 profile is awful. Thankfully that's not the case with other headphones I've tried (although I was unimpressed with the HE400i as well) but you need to look at that profile. It's worse than the unEQed sound of the HD650.


----------



## Roll

This article was originally published in audioXpress, July 2018:

Fresh From the Bench: Sonarworks Reference 4 Studio Edition Loudspeaker and Headphone Correction System

http://www.audioxpress.com/article/...n-loudspeaker-and-headphone-correction-system


----------



## Richter Di

Roll said:


> This article was originally published in audioXpress, July 2018:
> 
> Fresh From the Bench: Sonarworks Reference 4 Studio Edition Loudspeaker and Headphone Correction System
> 
> http://www.audioxpress.com/article/...n-loudspeaker-and-headphone-correction-system



Thanks for sharing. Very interesting read.


----------



## groovyd

Phase and impulse corrections will be the next big statement feature that I am really waiting for before recalibrating my system.


----------



## dakanao

I've downloaded the free trial of True-fi to use with my HD 650, and I think it takes too much smoothness away with my HD 6xx.. Also doesn't have ASIO support.

I'm gonna try out the Ref 4 trial, and see if that program makes them still have that natural smoothness to them, while correcting their FR. And ofcourse to see if ASIO is included in the trial.


----------



## rutter

The Reference 4 profile is the same. They do a really good job with some headphones but the HD650 profile is the opposite to my ears. Surprising.


----------



## groovyd

here is my custom profile maybe it works well for you via multi-band eq?


----------



## Roll

Limited Time Offer by Sonarworks and Pensado's Place



Offer until September 2nd?
Seem to work for REFERENCE 4 HEADPHONE EDITION
code: PENSADOSPLACE


----------



## dakanao

So i've tried to download the trial of the Ref 4, but it says ''this app can't get installed on your pc''. Does anyone know why this is?


----------



## mwr2700

dakanao said:


> So i've tried to download the trial of the Ref 4, but it says ''this app can't get installed on your pc''. Does anyone know why this is?




Give this a reading and see if it helps you out.


----------



## thebkt

dakanao said:


> So i've tried to download the trial of the Ref 4, but it says ''this app can't get installed on your pc''. Does anyone know why this is?


Same issue here.  It's because the file being downloaded is only 59bytes.  It's essentially a broken link right now.  I found a mirror on sourceforge for the full suite, but attempting to register it as a trial just sent me to the activation page 

I'd really like to try the additional controls in Reference 4 over True-fi.  I found the effect on some headphones with True-fi a little much, so having a little more control would be absolutely perfect.


----------



## rutter

What more control do you think Reference 4 will give you? I don't recall a single additional feature you'd find particularly useful.


----------



## Roll

rutter said:


> What more control do you think Reference 4 will give you? I don't recall a single additional feature you'd find particularly useful.



https://www.sonarworks.com/reference/tutorials/studio-edition-manual

*Enable Bass Boost and Tilt *
Pg 33

*Predefined Target Curves*

*Dry / wet control:*
The Dry / Wet control lets you adjust the level of correction applied to the audio signal.Normally this should be set to 100% wet to ensure that the calibration is accurate. If you feelthat the correction is too drastic for your needs, tweak this to your liking, but keep in mind that the calibration will get increasingly less accurate. Note that this is not a typical Dry / Wetmixer - the knob controls the “depth” of the correction. The core signal is always Wet, but thecorrection amount can be dynamically adjusted.35
Pg 36

*Zero Latency*


----------



## thebkt

rutter said:


> I don't recall a single additional feature *you'd* find particularly useful.


That is fine with me.


----------



## rutter (Aug 30, 2018)

Roll said:


> https://www.sonarworks.com/reference/tutorials/studio-edition-manual
> 
> *Enable Bass Boost and Tilt *
> Pg 33
> ...



Erm, I have tried both Reference 4 and True-Fi, not to mention I even looked at that. Have you not used these apps before? I.e. can you do more than fetch a link and list a few things? What did you find of significance in those features?

Might as well comment myself. Bass Boost is present in True-Fi and I think it's the same. The tilting is barbaric and gimmicky- you literally just tilt the whole frequency response around a point. The explanation for dry/wet states what it does- it reduces the effect of the equalization, nothing more. I played with the like two latency related options and found little difference among them. I highly doubt you'll find a solution to a general significant problem there. There are like two target curves if memory serves me right.

What am I missing?


----------



## rutter (Aug 30, 2018)

groovyd said:


> here is my custom profile maybe it works well for you via multi-band eq?



This is something you pay like $150 extra for and send away your headphones for some time. InnerFidelity gives you a frequency response graph to use with manual equalizers. The whole point of Sonarworks is automatic application of a good correction. The average HD 650 correction might be pretty bad and should be double-checked. I don't think this is the first time I encounter a complaint here and I personally found the profile to be very poor.


----------



## Roll

rutter said:


> What am I missing?



U are not missing much. I am just not content. 

I am a fool. I do not use the apps that much. I was 'down' and 'self-absorbed' was why I spend money...and I want others too

dry/wet - I actually used her. Hate the dial adjustment. I condition my mind that I need to get mad at the dial than harm my headphones - use with Sennheiser HD 700 and Shure 1840

barbaric and gimmicky - used mainly for movies...and I am a 'tool' using her with the AKG K1000

latency - useful when I am on my older Lenovo laptop. 

two target curves - u have good memory.


----------



## rutter (Aug 30, 2018)

I'm just being helpful, your humor is off-base and not having an actual retort to criticism is telling. Reference 4 appears to be poor value- everyone is free and encouraged to try it of course but don't have high expectations for utility over True-Fi. I'm genuinely curious what people find worthwhile about it.

Given you're defending the tilt feature, mind posting a screenshot of how you use it so that everyone can see what it is? I don't understand your dry/wet comment. Avoid clipping in True-Fi and the corresponding scale in Reference 4 address distortion, not dry/wet. Dry/wet just reduces the effect of the equalization gradually, which that link warns you about. Or are you trying to be funny in a way that's flying over my head? So you use it not to be mad at the headphones... maybe you should be directing your anger at the limited scope of the feature instead rather than the headphones? It's literally an if this is too much of a change for you let's dial it down. If you dislike a profile this won't change that, funny man. Nothing would, that's an illustration of the issue. If a profile is poor you're given very little to effectively alter it - you're given very little to do much of anything noteworthy exclusive to Reference 4 - aside from paying an extra $150 and sending your headphones off. Ironically True-Fi enables you to boost the high end, but not lower it, whereas Reference 4 forces you to change the entire frequency response range if you'd like to change the high end. And do I or do I not have good memory about the target curves? I tried the other target curve, I forgot what it sounded like. Suffice it to say it didn't justify spending more money.

Funny thing is I've had an extremely positive experience with Sonarworks and have basically promoted this product in addition to purchasing it and leaving a review, but that doesn't mean I just shut my brain off.


----------



## Solrighal

rutter said:


> What more control do you think Reference 4 will give you? I don't recall a single additional feature you'd find particularly useful.



It sounds better, so there's that.


----------



## rutter

The EQ profiles are identical hence they sound exactly the same.


----------



## dakanao (Aug 30, 2018)

I don't think it's worth it to pay €70 at all for True-fi, given how the trial HD 650 profile sounded to me. With that price, I'd rather add some cash and have them internally modded properly.

So I just wanna try out the free trial of Ref 4, just to see for myself how it is. But as a user previously has said, the trial file is only 59 bytes, and so it can't get installed…

I'm wondering why this is, and when it'll get fixed?


----------



## rutter

It has to be a bug. I've used the Reference 4 trial. It's unlucky the HD650 is the headphone you're trying Sonarworks with. No idea how likely a change to that profile or redoing it is but I completely agree with you. I use True-Fi with an LCD-X and there the value is off the charts, which says something about headphones, DACs, amps, and cables.


----------



## thebkt

The headphone version of Reference 4 is currently ~$15 more than True-Fi.  Hence, I'm interested in trialing Reference 4 in order to see if the additional controls would be worth it, to me.


----------



## rutter

Which is exactly what I did, in addition to reading the available information.  One good thing about Sonarworks are the exceptionally painless trials. A big reason why people end up making a purchase.


----------



## thebkt

The Wet/Dry alone might be worth it.  

With True-Fi I loved what it did to the LCD-X, but felt that the change could be a bit too mid forward, so bringing that back a bit might just do the trick.  I also liked the change it made with the Clears, albeit to a far lesser extent and I could happily live with the default Clear tuning.  

On the flip side, I wasn't a fan at all of what it sounded like through other cans I tried.  HE-560, HD6xx, DT 770... eek.  I preferred their individual tunings for what they were.

It's definitely a must have for the LCD-X though.  To my amateur ears, there's no real negative side effects and brings out a whole bunch more detail that the X's drivers are clearly capable of.


----------



## rutter

I thought the HD800S had a helpful profile too. The HE-400i a different story. It's starting to look like Sonarworks has an issue with less expensive headphones, which is curious. Not surprised the Clears would be a wash as their sound is very direct and straightforward and they do indeed seem tonally fine.


----------



## Solrighal

rutter said:


> The EQ profiles are identical hence they sound exactly the same.



That may well be the case today but when I first tried True-Fi (when it first launched) there was a world of difference between it's sound and that of Ref 4. In fact Ref 3 - which I was using up to that point - was also better with my HD 650 than True-Fi. True-Fi was thin, as though they'd turned up the Ref 3 plug-in to 11. I hated it. So much so I was reticent to continue upgrading to Ref 4 but I bit the bullet & never looked back.


----------



## the finisher

I tried True-fi and like it but will get Ref 4 HP instead. Someday upgrade to the full suite for my monitors/room EQ.

This just makes more sense, and Ref 4 will work better than True-fi in every way.


----------



## rutter

Solrighal said:


> That may well be the case today but when I first tried True-Fi (when it first launched) there was a world of difference between it's sound and that of Ref 4. In fact Ref 3 - which I was using up to that point - was also better with my HD 650 than True-Fi. True-Fi was thin, as though they'd turned up the Ref 3 plug-in to 11. I hated it. So much so I was reticent to continue upgrading to Ref 4 but I bit the bullet & never looked back.



That sounds alarming. I didn't read anywhere that the profiles are different and having tried both apps I didn't hear a difference.


----------



## dakanao

So I got the trial of Ref 4. Does anyone know how I can install it with ASIO support on foobar?


----------



## thebkt

the finisher said:


> I tried True-fi and like it but will get Ref 4 HP instead. Someday upgrade to the full suite for my monitors/room EQ.
> 
> This just makes more sense, and Ref 4 will work better than True-fi in every way.


Likewise.  Got the Ref 4 trial working last night and definitely feel that the additional controls are worth it.


----------



## the finisher (Sep 1, 2018)

thebkt said:


> Likewise.  Got the Ref 4 trial working last night and definitely feel that the additional controls are worth it.



Thanks, I did the trial of True-fi I thought it worked well, the cheaper the Cans I used the less effective it was.
LCD X, HD 6xx, and 280 pro's, go fiqure 

Also I am pretty sure Ref 4 has full ASIO driver support now, something you exclusively needed DAW software and plugins for with other solutions. It will also be updated more often, being a pro tool and all. So I'm just going to buy now.

+ 25% off till 9/2  PENSADOSPLACE

Thanks @Roll  for that 

I have to say I found it worked ok with the 6xx, but not without a bunch of tweaking/listening.
More adjustments will be welcome.


----------



## groovyd (Sep 1, 2018)

Ref 4 is valuable not only for its additional flexibility and control but really for opening the door to custom calibrations for both headphones and speakers.  If you are just using headphones and don't care that much about having a personal and true +-0.9db correction but are happy +-3db then True-fi is for you.  I don't think $15 should be the deciding factor in the purchase but the promise of a much better correction and control and to also work with speakers.

I posted my calibration curve hoping you might find it a better correction then the average or anything on Inter-fi which I always found to have inaccurate curves in general.  Maybe it is the head model or measurement equipment they use.


----------



## rutter (Sep 1, 2018)

There is no personal calibration/correction. The only scale is in essence for avoiding distortion, the profiles are automatic and no control or specific detail is provided for them. This is fundamental and it's shocking to read a misrepresentation like that. Both True-Fi and Reference 4 are extremely basic. The meat is in the applied profile. Unless I'm missing something about the plugin. I would've gotten Reference 4 myself precisely because it would've been a few tens of dollars more except after trying it I saw no point whatsoever. This is for headphones only.

Your calibration curve is misleading. You sent in your headphones to be measured and for a personal profile to be created, correct? What are you talking about? As far as I'm aware that has nothing to do with Reference 4.

Or did you order the Reference 4 + HD 650 package? That's paying for the headphone as well, but because it comes from Sonarworks you get the personal headphone-dependent profile. This is not a Reference 4 vs True-Fi matter. Both Reference 4 and True-Fi should be using the same average profiles, and implying that such profiles are less precise (e.g. 0.9 db vs 3 db) sounds terribly uninformed to me. What you get with personal calibration is the same type of profile the product provides except accurate for your individual headphone, perhaps per driver too. Sure there's value there, but also a much higher price involving not having your headphone or buying a particular package. Such personal profiles should work with True-Fi as well.


----------



## dakanao

the finisher said:


> Thanks, I did the trial of True-fi I thought it worked well, the cheaper the Cans I used the less effective it was.
> LCD X, HD 6xx, and 280 pro's, go fiqure
> 
> Also I am pretty sure Ref 4 has full ASIO driver support now, something you exclusively needed DAW software and plugins for with other solutions. It will also be updated more often, being a pro tool and all. So I'm just going to buy now.
> ...


Do you perhaps now how I can get the trial to work with ASIO in foobar2000?


----------



## the finisher

dakanao said:


> Do you perhaps now how I can get the trial to work with ASIO in foobar2000?



Well this is what I read somewhere, now I'm thinking I'll need to dive in deep to make this work.

If/when I do I'll post more.

I think this will help fix many of these problems I have had regarding the issue of getting AISO to work with my c-media based audio card.
It should work to integrate Ref 4 Systemwide into the chain.

https://www.vb-audio.com/Cable/index.htm


----------



## dakanao

the finisher said:


> Well this is what I read somewhere, now I'm thinking I'll need to dive in deep to make this work.
> 
> If/when I do I'll post more.
> 
> ...


I've tried those programs before to try to get ASIO systemwide (without Sonarworks, just the ASIO plugin from my Chord Mojo), but it didn't work at all


----------



## the finisher (Sep 5, 2018)

I'm probably going to need a good DAW program, fortunately for me I will need one anyway so planning on it.
For now I'm stuck with Windows and switching bit rates manually :-/

I'm sure they did work at one time but MS probably borked them with updates.


----------



## dakanao (Sep 5, 2018)

So I just tried out the Ref 4 trial for my HD 6xx. It definitely improves things for me with the Wet/Dryness button set to 40 as compared to True-Fi.

However, I noticed that the HD 600 average and subpac profiles actually have LESS bass and MORE highs than the HD 650 profile. The HD 600 is supposed to be less bassier and brighter than the HD 650, so why is the HD 600 profile less bassy and brighter than the HD 650 one?

But still I have noticed 1 thing that's kinda strange. When I have Sonarworks running in the task bar, but have selected my Chord Mojo as the standard device, I actually get slightly cleaner sound on browser audio than with Sonarworks closed from the task bar...

Is Sonarworks perhaps using improved audio plug-ins as compared to the ones which came with Windows? So even though SonarWorks is just running in the taskbar background and is not doing any correction, the better plug-ins give it a cleaner audio? Or am I imagining things?

I had the same experience like that with True-fi running in the taskbar btw (again not doing any correction to my device, just being active in the taskbar applications)


----------



## the finisher




----------



## groovyd

rutter said:


> There is no personal calibration/correction. The only scale is in essence for avoiding distortion, the profiles are automatic and no control or specific detail is provided for them. This is fundamental and it's shocking to read a misrepresentation like that. Both True-Fi and Reference 4 are extremely basic. The meat is in the applied profile. Unless I'm missing something about the plugin. I would've gotten Reference 4 myself precisely because it would've been a few tens of dollars more except after trying it I saw no point whatsoever. This is for headphones only.
> 
> Your calibration curve is misleading. You sent in your headphones to be measured and for a personal profile to be created, correct? What are you talking about? As far as I'm aware that has nothing to do with Reference 4.
> 
> Or did you order the Reference 4 + HD 650 package? That's paying for the headphone as well, but because it comes from Sonarworks you get the personal headphone-dependent profile. This is not a Reference 4 vs True-Fi matter. Both Reference 4 and True-Fi should be using the same average profiles, and implying that such profiles are less precise (e.g. 0.9 db vs 3 db) sounds terribly uninformed to me. What you get with personal calibration is the same type of profile the product provides except accurate for your individual headphone, perhaps per driver too. Sure there's value there, but also a much higher price involving not having your headphone or buying a particular package. Such personal profiles should work with True-Fi as well.



I didn't post it for you to try plugging into Ref4 or True-Fi so perhaps that's your confusion... the idea was for you to try setting a similar curve with a quality parametric or multi-band EQ and see if it is a better correction then what their average is for the 650s.  That's all it was for a correction curve reference that at least for me does a great job correcting the 650s which to be honest don't really need much correction if any from stock.  They are one of the flattest headphones out there.


----------



## rutter

One, I wasn't the person you posted it for. Two, I understood what you were trying to do exactly.


----------



## groovyd

dakanao said:


> So I just tried out the Ref 4 trial for my HD 6xx. It definitely improves things for me with the Wet/Dryness button set to 40 as compared to True-Fi.
> 
> However, I noticed that the HD 600 average and subpac profiles actually have LESS bass and MORE highs than the HD 650 profile. The HD 600 is supposed to be less bassier and brighter than the HD 650, so why is the HD 600 profile less bassy and brighter than the HD 650 one?
> 
> ...



As far as i'm aware True-Fi is a systemwide correction similar to how Ref4 has a 'systemwide' companion app.  I think they recognized setting up for correction systemwide was a bit difficult to do mostly because their licensing model was bad but also because it involved a few moving parts the user self-manages under Ref4 and that most people just want it all in one app to work without the fuss.  I have never used True-Fi so I could be wrong about that though.

In general I highly recommend Ref4 to anyone interested in good sound across both windows and mac.  It is one of the best investments in audio I have ever made and to have their top of the line tools for that just makes sense for any audiophiles.


----------



## groovyd

rutter said:


> One, I wasn't the person you posted it for. Two, I understood what you were trying to do exactly.



Your post sure doesn't sound that way


----------



## rutter

It does. What you did was wrong for multiple reasons. One, with respect to the purpose and value of Sonarworks, two, with respect to an individual profile versus an average one, three, with respect to EQ per driver whereas unless I'm mistaken EQ is normally applied to a headphone. I.e., not very helpful. The person reported a complaint with a product they purchased, they didn't really need a complete shot in the dark.


----------



## groovyd

rutter said:


> It does. What you did was wrong for multiple reasons. One, with respect to the purpose and value of Sonarworks, two, with respect to an individual profile versus an average one, three, with respect to EQ per driver whereas unless I'm mistaken EQ is normally applied to a headphone. I.e., not very helpful. The person reported a complaint with a product they purchased, they didn't really need a complete shot in the dark.



There was nothing wrong with what I did for any reason.  One, for the purpose and value of sonarworks it was meant to show there does exist a 650 correction that sounds good for at least one user (me) and possibly the o.p. if they wanted to experiment with that curve.  Two, there is no reason why a individual profile might not be better then the average profile for someone else's 650's.  It could be just that their average profile isn't a good fit for their unit.  Three, not really sure what you are even asserting here.

Why try so hard to prove me a waste of time or wrong?  It's like you so badly want to be right or something... at least that's what it seems.


----------



## rutter

That correction costs >$100 on top. Given multiple people are reporting a poor profile for the HD650 maybe the focus should be on Sonarworks checking that profile rather than resorting to another EQ. Money has already been spent. LCD-X users also report a consistently good profile.


----------



## groovyd (Sep 7, 2018)

rutter said:


> That correction costs >$100 on top. Given multiple people are reporting a poor profile for the HD650 maybe the focus should be on Sonarworks checking that profile rather than resorting to another EQ. Money has already been spent. LCD-X users also report a consistently good profile.



Not disagreeing they should do their due diligence on their average profiles but my guess is they already do.  Perhaps I could indicate an issue with this particular model of headphone and how the earpads seal against the measurement rig.  The 650 earpads are quite unique and maybe not properly sealing on the test model.  What would make that unlikely is I sent mine in and got a great correction for it.  It could also be there is a high output variance by those headphones depending on the listener's exact head/ear geometry and I just got lucky.  Maybe there is a lot of variance in those units in general and an average just won't fit any of the 650s particularly well.  That would be a good argument for Ref4 and sending in for custom calibration.


----------



## rutter

Unless I'm mistaken individual profiles are loaded the same in both applications.


----------



## the finisher

I'm really liking Sonarworks Ref4 with the X, can't go back. I like the extra adjustments.
But the upgrade to the monitor/room EQ and DAW plugins is the main point for me. 
Looking to more time with the HD6xx and HD280, just no time now.
Happy just listening to the LCD X for now.
Hard to believe how proper EQ can improve an already great sounding setup.
Ref 4 or True-fi is a must buy for LCD X owners IMO.


----------



## rutter

Yea, the LCD-X profile is a hit. By far the best $55 I've spent. Really makes me wonder why some of the other ones don't pan out. I think the HD800S profile is good too.


----------



## thebkt

If anything it'd be down to the characteristics of various headphones.  In the case of some, like the HD650, it's designed to sound enjoyable, not neutral.  No doubt more R&D goes into that sound than just damping and such.  So no doubt some drivers simply adjust better than others.  It's worth keeping in mind that the Sonarworks EQ is about flattening out the FR for the studio, not to make them sound subjectively better.  I'm super happy with the purchase, but feel no need to use it with my Clears and certainly not with my HE-560, but I'm definitely in the must buy for LCD-X camp.


----------



## rutter (Sep 10, 2018)

At this point I'm not buying excuses about any product. The LCD-X was supposedly designed to sound neutral and an app that literally neutralizes it makes a big difference. Stop. Don't talk about subjective nonsense either. The HD 650 sounded worse to me with Sonarworks.


----------



## Richter Di

I am using Sonarworks Reference 4 on my Laptop and the True-Fi beta app on my Sony NW-ZX2 android player.
Works like a charm. What a wonderful addition.
Tried it out with my Sennheiser HD 800, Hifiman HE-500 and Fostex x Massdrop TH-X00 Massdrop.


----------



## the finisher (Sep 16, 2018)

Yes, I agree, I am a happy customer, I'm still waiting on my new HD 6xx adapters, but with the LCD X this app is worth every penny.

I really like how the limiter works even if the correction EQ is bypassed when switching to speakers with the HP version.


----------



## alphanumerix1

Is there profile for fostex th610?


----------



## the finisher (Sep 20, 2018)

Not much Fostex, only T50RP Mklll, and TH-X00.

Not much Audeze either only LCD 2 and X.


----------



## alphanumerix1

damn..


----------



## rutter (Sep 22, 2018)

Ok, so over in the LCD-X thread multiple are claiming that Reference 4 sounds better to them than True-Fi. One person even claimed that it sounds vastly superior or some such apparent nonsense. I presume that these people indeed tried both applications. My impression, from what I've read, observed, and from listening is that there is no difference in sound quality. Of course this is without applying something exclusive to one app, like dry/wet. Is there any validity to these claims? Possibly some bug or unintended effect? Am I missing something? Does the plug-in make some difference, any compatibility differences?

One person claims that he or she hears distortion with True-Fi and none with Reference 4 when the max lower volume value based on the applied EQ should be identical between the two. No plug-in involved. This is particularly serious as from what people claim damage to hearing and headphones can result.


----------



## Bern2

rutter said:


> Ok, so over in the LCD-X thread multiple are claiming that Reference 4 sounds better to them than True-Fi. One person even claimed that it sounds vastly superior or some such apparent nonsense. I presume that these people indeed tried both applications. My impression, from what I've read, observed, and from listening is that there is no difference in sound quality. Of course this is without applying something exclusive to one app, like dry/wet. Is there any validity to these claims? Possibly some bug or unintended effect? Am I missing something? Does the plug-in make some difference, any compatibility differences?
> 
> One person claims that he or she hears distortion with True-Fi and none with Reference 4 when the max lower volume value based on the applied EQ should be identical between the two. No plug-in involved. This is particularly serious as from what people claim damage to hearing and headphones can result.


Why are all your posts so negative?  When you had an opinion regarding the 650 profile sounding like rubblish...that's ok.  When someone else has an OPINION...it suddenly becomes nonsense.  
People hear and interpret things differently.  That's just the way it is.
Rant over.  
Bern


----------



## groovyd

rutter said:


> Ok, so over in the LCD-X thread multiple are claiming that Reference 4 sounds better to them than True-Fi. One person even claimed that it sounds vastly superior or some such apparent nonsense. I presume that these people indeed tried both applications. My impression, from what I've read, observed, and from listening is that there is no difference in sound quality. Of course this is without applying something exclusive to one app, like dry/wet. Is there any validity to these claims? Possibly some bug or unintended effect? Am I missing something? Does the plug-in make some difference, any compatibility differences?
> 
> One person claims that he or she hears distortion with True-Fi and none with Reference 4 when the max lower volume value based on the applied EQ should be identical between the two. No plug-in involved. This is particularly serious as from what people claim damage to hearing and headphones can result.



My understanding after talking to tech support is they both use identical processing algorithms and average profiles under the hood.


----------



## Richter Di

rutter said:


> Ok, so over in the LCD-X thread multiple are claiming that Reference 4 sounds better to them than True-Fi. One person even claimed that it sounds vastly superior or some such apparent nonsense. I presume that these people indeed tried both applications. My impression, from what I've read, observed, and from listening is that there is no difference in sound quality. Of course this is without applying something exclusive to one app, like dry/wet. Is there any validity to these claims? Possibly some bug or unintended effect? Am I missing something? Does the plug-in make some difference, any compatibility differences?
> 
> One person claims that he or she hears distortion with True-Fi and none with Reference 4 when the max lower volume value based on the applied EQ should be identical between the two. No plug-in involved. This is particularly serious as from what people claim damage to hearing and headphones can result.





groovyd said:


> My understanding after talking to tech support is they both use identical processing algorithms and average profiles under the hood.



I also tried both and for my ears they sound different.


----------



## rutter

They're not supposed to sound different. Clarification would be appreciated. The poster who claims that there is distortion with True-Fi is adamant about it too.


----------



## Roll

Manage your Sonarworks product activation keys and devices. 

Still in work-in progress. Worked on my full Ref 4 and True-Fi

Clipped from Sonarworks:

***Note that currently only *full keys* of Reference 4 and True-Fi are supported. ***

http://accounts.sonarworks.com/#/login?redirect=/devices

" The end goals is so that you can simply log-in to use Sonarworks. No need to search for keys."

But what can you do now? 

Once you create an account and register your activation key there (this will be automatic later):
- you will get an overview of all devices where product is activated;
- deactivate the key from device you are not using anymore or have reinstalled (no more waiting on our Support to do that!).

*** Note that currently only full keys of Reference 4 and True-Fi are supported ***


----------



## groovyd (Sep 23, 2018)

After recognizing Ref 4 is to be a significant upgrade for speaker calibration over Ref 3 I finally decided to bite the bullet and spend the morning going through it all again... It takes a good hour to setup since it involves updating all drivers and unplugging all appliances around the house and waiting for all the airplanes to pass overhead.  And this time I have to admit it did a much better job of identifying the proper distance between speakers and distance to my listening spot only off by a few inches in both cases.  My desktop setup with maggie minis is very near field and because of room reflections it can be difficult to locate the mic in the closer positions to the speakers.  That and having to lock onto many more measurements then Ref 3 took quite some time to get through them all.  But finally it showed my resulting profile which looked more accurate then what Ref 3 was producing.  Unfortunately after hitting 'save' it just kept spinning the save button icon forever.  Looking in the profile folder showing a zero length file with the right name but no data.  Left it spin for a half hour before quitting and rebooting and trying again.  Another hour and the same thing.  Wow, talk about intensely aggravating.  I always fear setting up to take measurements because so far every version of the tools have failed me nearly every time in different ways.  And here I thought they finally fixed it for good.  Stuck on the only lucky pass Ref 3 profile from over a year ago and lost for a few hours of trying with Ref 4 failing ultimately on the arguably easiest part of the process, saving the file.  Completely let down.


----------



## dr cornelius

I’m used to flat sound,  from years of hearing studio monitors in control rooms and edit bays, so I just downloaded Ref 4 and I”m messing around with it (I demoed True-Fi and didn’t like it as much).  I find with cheaper headphones like the MDR 7506 and ATH M50x, the effect from the app can be helpful.   I’m not so sure about how HD 600s sound with it - it does tame some higher frequencies and adds bass, but the soundstage is more in-your-head.  I’m finding that closed in sound with some other cans, too...  I’m wondering if the success of Sonarworks is dependent on the headphone’s ability to handle the amount of EQ added.  I don’t know if the HD 600’s were designed to handle that much bass...  

It doesn’t make a cheap pair of cans sound like more expensive ones, but maybe it will help with mixing decisions, I’ll see as I use it more...


----------



## dbturbo2

Using A+ for Windows streaming Tidal Masters thru Mojo with both Ref 4 and True-Fi thru headphones.  On master quality hi-res files that would typically play at 24/96khz, they are playing at 48khz when using either of the SW programs.

Is there an adjustment somewhere or do the SW programs max out at 48khz?


----------



## alphanumerix1

Is the th610 profile added yet?


----------



## thebkt

alphanumerix1 said:


> Is the th610 profile added yet?


Have a look 

https://www.sonarworks.com/truefi/headphones


----------



## alphanumerix1

thebkt said:


> Have a look
> 
> https://www.sonarworks.com/truefi/headphones



Doesnt look like it.


----------



## the finisher

dbturbo2 said:


> Using A+ for Windows streaming Tidal Masters thru Mojo with both Ref 4 and True-Fi thru headphones.  On master quality hi-res files that would typically play at 24/96khz, they are playing at 48khz when using either of the SW programs.
> 
> Is there an adjustment somewhere or do the SW programs max out at 48khz?


Change windows real audio device to 24/96.
Sonarworks virtual audio device to 24/96 in that order. Working fine. When changing back to 16/44.1 on the real device it will automatically follow.


----------



## dbturbo2

Worked perfectly, much appreciated!


----------



## Shooter41

I have tried both True-Fi and Ref 4 and like them quite a bit with all my phones (Focal Elear and Clear, Aud. LCD-2).  I did, however, have quite a few technical issues with True-Fi in my system. Really annoying dropouts plus crashes whenever sample rates changed.  Their tech support tried to help but ultimately couldn't come up with anything.  Eventually upgraded to Ref 4 and things have been much better.  The UI is also vastly better.  Still get a dropout very rarely, but no more crashes.  Reading this thread has caused me to wonder if the occasional distortion I hear could be because of the software.  Kinda wish I didn't like it so much as I'm also a little annoyed that it's limited to 96kHz or lower sample rate.  My system consists of a mac running Pure Music, a Cambridge Audio 851D dac (via a Schiit Eitr), and a Schiit Mjolnir 2 w/ the ifi tubeset.  I could always remove the Sonarworks software from the loop and all problems would disappear, so it was definitely causing the issue, or at least the combination of it and some other component was.  It's still worth the trouble to me, though.


----------



## the finisher

I can just completely bypass Sonarworks virtual audio device in Windows, I hear no difference other than the limiter.


----------



## Richter Di

the finisher said:


> I can just completely bypass Sonarworks virtual audio device in Windows, I hear no difference other than the limiter.


Did you try the wet and dry button?


----------



## the finisher

Yes, I keep it about 80% with my Xs.


----------



## derekphone

Just learning about Sonarworks. My question is when you factor in headphone mods, amp and dac sound characteristics does that mess things up when using your headphone specific EQ setting? In other words, when the Sonarworks team made the settings for the headphones, are they using very neutral, well powered gear?


----------



## the finisher (Oct 9, 2018)

I'd think so, you can email them and ask them. They're the only ones who can answer your questions on that.


----------



## Shooter41

derekphone said:


> Just learning about Sonarworks. My question is when you factor in headphone mods, amp and dac sound characteristics does that mess things up when using your headphone specific EQ setting? In other words, when the Sonarworks team made the settings for the headphones, are they using very neutral, well powered gear?



I would hazard a guess that the only one of those to be concerned about would be headphone mods.  Since their software is designed to correct anomalies in specific headphone models, any modifications would throw that off.  The other variables you've mentioned would continue to "flavor" the music just as they would without Sonarworks, but wouldn't interfere with the corrections that it's making.  The good news is that with a free trial you can try it and see.  You either like it or you don't, makes no difference if it's "correct" if it doesn't sound good to you.


----------



## thebkt

derekphone said:


> Just learning about Sonarworks. My question is when you factor in headphone mods, amp and dac sound characteristics does that mess things up when using your headphone specific EQ setting? In other words, when the Sonarworks team made the settings for the headphones, are they using very neutral, well powered gear?


 It most certainly will. From what I've read, the sonarworks EQ corrections are based on an average of a number of headphones measured. Given that each headphone will have a slightly different FR compared to any other matching models, then this approach makes sense.  Further, this means that mods will most certainly have an effect.  

Personally I wouldn't be too concerned with the effect your other gear would have, as that'll affect any headphones and eq.


----------



## derekphone

Thanks for the responses. Definitely good points. There will always be variables. 

Has anyone compared modded HD650 against Sonarworks?

I’ve ordered the HD6XX and just trying to explore options. Was going to mod it , but perhaps Sonarworks might work better for me. 

Some of the mods are irreversible.


----------



## thebkt

derekphone said:


> Thanks for the responses. Definitely good points. There will always be variables.
> 
> Has anyone compared modded HD650 against Sonarworks?
> 
> ...


I had the HD6XX and from my brief time using it with Reference 4, I much preferred them stock.  To my ears they were a very pleasant listen right out of the box, certainly not ruler flat, but enjoyable.


----------



## groovyd

derekphone said:


> Thanks for the responses. Definitely good points. There will always be variables.
> 
> Has anyone compared modded HD650 against Sonarworks?
> 
> ...



650 doesn't require a huge correction and it's native profile is quite pleasing on it's own but if your looking for reference flat that you can then profile away from to suit your preferences you cannot beat Sonarworks.  One thing that would be nice is if they published the number of units used in the average profile to give a sense of it's stability.


----------



## the finisher

I use Ref 4 with my 6xx, but it's not the pronounced better experience I get with the X.
But I have tuned it and use it.


----------



## derekphone

groovyd said:


> 650 doesn't require a huge correction and it's native profile is quite pleasing on it's own but if your looking for reference flat that you can then profile away from to suit your preferences you cannot beat Sonarworks.  One thing that would be nice is if they published the number of units used in the average profile to give a sense of it's stability.


How do you think they'd compare to the physical mods people do on the HD650?


----------



## derekphone

the finisher said:


> I use Ref 4 with my 6xx, but it's not the pronounced better experience I get with the X.
> But I have tuned it and use it.



What is the X?


----------



## the finisher

Audeze LCD X


----------



## groovyd

derekphone said:


> How do you think they'd compare to the physical mods people do on the HD650?



if flat is your interest sonarworks will beat any other mods.  it just depends what you are after.


----------



## Shooter41

I realize this is one of the oldest cliche's in the audio book, so forgive me, but to me Sonarwork's main function is to lift whatever veil exists in your setup.  The better your equipment the less veil there is to lift, obviously, but when I A/B it there's ALWAYS at least some that it instantly lifts.  I'm honestly baffled by anyone saying they don't like it.  To each their own, of course, and I can understand someone resisting it on purely "keep it simple" grounds, but man, once I heard it there was no going back for me.  I just hope they're good stewards of their product and continue to improve/refine it over time.


----------



## tajpapa

Shooter41 said:


> once I heard it there was no going back for me.  I just hope they're good stewards of their product and continue to improve/refine it over time.



No going back for me either. Even now I'm only adding headphones collection that's already supported by them. Still waiting for my Sony MDR-Z1R to be supported though, for now I'm just enjoying it with my HD800S


----------



## thebkt

Shooter41 said:


> I realize this is one of the oldest cliche's in the audio book, so forgive me, but to me Sonarwork's main function is to lift whatever veil exists in your setup.  The better your equipment the less veil there is to lift, obviously, but when I A/B it there's ALWAYS at least some that it instantly lifts.  I'm honestly baffled by anyone saying they don't like it.  To each their own, of course, and I can understand someone resisting it on purely "keep it simple" grounds, but man, once I heard it there was no going back for me.  I just hope they're good stewards of their product and continue to improve/refine it over time.


What headphones did you try?


----------



## Shooter41

thebkt said:


> What headphones did you try?



LCD2 (w/fazor), Elear, and Clear.  It honestly may make the biggest difference with the LCDs, but I prefer the Clears and they are on my head most of the time.  Elears will actually be up for sale very soon as they are now superfluous, may hang on to the LCDs for some variety.  I also have some B & O's that are the best sounding $300 phones I've ever heard, but they're not supported and since they're no longer in production it's doubtful they ever will be.  Would LOVE to hear what Sonarworks could do for them.  Not even suggesting they could compete with the LCDs or the Clears, but they do offer a helluva lotta bang for the buck.  My peripherals are an Mac mini running Pure Music -- Gumby(brand new) -- Mjolnir 2 w/ifi tubes.  I use balanced cables everywhere I can.  Have a Curious Cables USB en route, and intend to try Roon later on.


----------



## jnorris

I started a thread that no one responded to about looking for complementary headphone profiles for headphones that were not directly supported by Reference 4.  I mentioned using the Marshall Monitor profile for the Martin Logan Mikros 70's, and I just found that my UE900S phones were greatly improved by using the Marshall Major II profile with a bit of treble lift.


----------



## thebkt

Shooter41 said:


> LCD2 (w/fazor), Elear, and Clear.  It honestly may make the biggest difference with the LCDs, but I prefer the Clears and they are on my head most of the time.  Elears will actually be up for sale very soon as they are now superfluous, may hang on to the LCDs for some variety.  I also have some B & O's that are the best sounding $300 phones I've ever heard, but they're not supported and since they're no longer in production it's doubtful they ever will be.  Would LOVE to hear what Sonarworks could do for them.  Not even suggesting they could compete with the LCDs or the Clears, but they do offer a helluva lotta bang for the buck.  My peripherals are an Mac mini running Pure Music -- Gumby(brand new) -- Mjolnir 2 w/ifi tubes.  I use balanced cables everywhere I can.  Have a Curious Cables USB en route, and intend to try Roon later on.


Nice setup!  I can understand your Elear getting usurped.  That's basically what happened to my HE-560 after I got the Clear, then LCD-X.  In fact, I haven't been listening to my clears very much lately as my big ol' ears just fit so nicely with the X.  

But I digress, I don't imagine I'll ever hear the comparison, but I'm curious as to what the end result of the LCD-2 vs LCD-X would be when both are corrected by Sonarworks.  I'm finding my self more regularly switching off the Ref 4 correction with my X's, if only because after a long, rough day it can be nice to have that edge taken off.  But bright eyed and bushy tailed with a fresh cup of coffee, the correction is on and the volume up.  I'm also finding some particular tracks benefiting a lot more to my personal taste.  I've found some less well recorded metal/rock is often better left veiled.  More spacious, less distorted music, sounds so much nicer with those additional details.


----------



## derekphone

fjrabon said:


> One point, everybody who is using this for audiophile purposes should be using linear phase. The other two settings are more for people doing live in studio tracking, who can't deal with a substantial delay. But if you're just listening to music, a playback delay isn't an issue at all. The linear phase setting takes more CPU but is MUCH higher fidelity.



How do I ensure Linear Phase is selected? Can't find it in Can Opener or Mid Side.


----------



## talmadge

tajpapa said:


> No going back for me either. Even now I'm only adding headphones collection that's already supported by them. Still waiting for my Sony MDR-Z1R to be supported though, for now I'm just enjoying it with my HD800S



I had my Z1R's custom calibrated by sonarworks and really like the result. also like that I can adjust the bass and highs.
How do the Z1R's compare with the 800s?


----------



## derekphone

DivineCurrent said:


> I got my custom calibration done for the HD650 last week. I just want to comment on how much of a difference it makes compared to the average profile. You wouldn't think it would make much difference, but it honestly doesn't sound like I am listening to headphones after the calibration, the sound has suddenly jumped out of the headphones and made them disappear. It quite literally transforms the HD650s into a whole new headphone, that beats anything else I have tried the 3 years I've been in the hobby. I've honestly never heard sound so natural and realistic thanks to the flat frequency curve Sonarworks uses. I am eager to try other headphones now with the custom calibration. So, kudos to the team at Sonarworks, because my experience with the custom calibration service has been nothing but amazing!


How are your enjoying your HD650's after being calibrated by Sonarworks?


----------



## Bern2

talmadge said:


> I had my Z1R's custom calibrated by sonarworks and really like the result. also like that I can adjust the bass and highs.
> How do the Z1R's compare with the 800s?


Could you take a screenshot from the computer showing the correction applied?  I was going to send mine in...but was happy enough using the simple itunes EQ.  The 800 I use Sonarworks.  (was never able to manually EQ to satisfaction).

The Z1R/HD800 combo has worked well for me.  Definitely complimentary.  
Bern


----------



## talmadge




----------



## Bern2

talmadge said:


>


Thx...I really should send mine in and get them measured.  
Bern


----------



## jaxz (Oct 13, 2018)

New truefi user here. Can't go back now. Still five free trial days left but I already paid the fee for the app. My HE560, DT880, HD600 and HD668B, sound amazing! Recomended.


----------



## derekphone (Oct 13, 2018)

talmadge said:


>


Awesome. The fact that you may be adjusting the bass and highs, doesn't that negate the whole flat line which you sent to get customized and perfect? Or am I missing something? Maybe you're wanting slightly less bass frequency that the average line from True-Fi gave you? But if that's so, wouldn't you just bring it down a bit with the setting? 

Would love to understand your thinking because it may help me better understand this approach.


----------



## Bern2

jaxz said:


> New truefi user here. Can't go back now. Still five free trial days left but I already paid the fee for the app. My HE560, DT880, HD600 and HD668B, sound amazing! Recomended.


Which headphone benefited the most in your opinion?  I almost got rid of the HD800 before I tried SW ref 3 as a last resort.  What a massive improvement.

Bern


----------



## jaxz

Bern2 said:


> Which headphone benefited the most in your opinion?  I almost got rid of the HD800 before I tried SW ref 3 as a last resort.  What a massive improvement.
> 
> Bern



Hi Bern! IMO the most benefited are the HE560s, oh man, so lively and natural. Second place was de DT880.


----------



## talmadge (Oct 13, 2018)

derekphone said:


> Awesome. The fact that you may be adjusting the bass and highs, doesn't that negate the whole flat line which you sent to get customized and perfect? Or am I missing something? Maybe you're wanting slightly less bass frequency that the average line from True-Fi gave you? But if that's so, wouldn't you just bring it down a bit with the setting?
> 
> Would love to understand your thinking because it may help me better understand this approach.




What I wanted from sonarworks is to bring down the spikes in the frequency responce to flat or near flat. Then if I want to tilt up the bass or highs to my taste I can do so. Even the midrange as I also use a schiit loki. 
Flat is not necessarily perfect to me but its where I want to start from.


----------



## Shooter41

derekphone said:


> Awesome. The fact that you may be adjusting the bass and highs, doesn't that negate the whole flat line which you sent to get customized and perfect? Or am I missing something? Maybe you're wanting slightly less bass frequency that the average line from True-Fi gave you? But if that's so, wouldn't you just bring it down a bit with the setting?
> 
> Would love to understand your thinking because it may help me better understand this approach.



For me, I find that having to adjust the bass and/or highs to be a pretty rare thing and it's always to compensate for a less-than-stellar recording.  In those cases I'm very grateful to have those controls without having to send the data through yet another device/app, etc.  This is also another way that Reference 4's UI is leaps and bounds better than True-Fi's.  And on that subject, I mentioned this before but Ref 4 has also been a more stable program for me.  True-Fi always felt like a work in progress almost, whereas Ref 4 has a much more polished look and feel.


----------



## Baten

Can anyone help me. How do you chain Sonarworks together with other VSTs? Is it possible?

I have the Sonarworks system-wide set up but want to add other effects. I can do this in foobar2k and JRiver, but I want it systemwide to use with video's, streams, netflix/movies etc. not just in foobar alone...

About sonarworks, i sent in my own modded headphones (customer driver audio technica's). The flat EQ is way too flat. After days messing around, tweaking, playing the dry/wet knob; I found that adding toneboosters Morphit on top of sonarworks in 100% flat mode is just amazing.
I wish Sonarworks still had their "Simulate" function, would have saved me the headache of setting up this vst chain lol. But the effect is so worth it. sonarworks 8/10, sonarworks + morphit = 10/10. End-game for little money, hell yes.


----------



## Richter Di

Baten said:


> Can anyone help me. How do you chain Sonarworks together with other VSTs? Is it possible?
> 
> I have the Sonarworks system-wide set up but want to add other effects. I can do this in foobar2k and JRiver, but I want it systemwide to use with video's, streams, netflix/movies etc. not just in foobar alone...
> 
> ...




Maybe my question goes in a similar direction. I would like to use an external DAC but do not understand how I could use my Sonarworks Reference Headphone edition here.


----------



## dbturbo2

Richter Di said:


> Maybe my question goes in a similar direction. I would like to use an external DAC but do not understand how I could use my Sonarworks Reference Headphone edition here.



I’m not sure what source you are using but if for example you are using Audirvana or Tidal as your source, you would choose SW as the output to either of those sources, and then choose your DAC as the output in SW.


----------



## Richter Di

dbturbo2 said:


> I’m not sure what source you are using but if for example you are using Audirvana or Tidal as your source, you would choose SW as the output to either of those sources, and then choose your DAC as the output in SW.



Sorry, I am using a Windows 10 Laptop. I attached the ifi DAC via USB. I can now select Sonarworks as an output or the ifi DAC. If I choose Sonarworks, tries to play via the internal speakers. If I use the ifi DAC the sound is without Sonarworks EQing.


----------



## dbturbo2

Richter Di said:


> Sorry, I am using a Windows 10 Laptop. I attached the ifi DAC via USB. I can now select Sonarworks as an output or the ifi DAC. If I choose Sonarworks, tries to play via the internal speakers. If I use the ifi DAC the sound is without Sonarworks EQing.[/QUOTE



After you selected SW as the output for the IFI DAC, did you go into the settings in SW and select the IFI DAC as your output device?


----------



## tajpapa

talmadge said:


> I had my Z1R's custom calibrated by sonarworks and really like the result. also like that I can adjust the bass and highs.
> How do the Z1R's compare with the 800s?



Wow I'd really like that and very curious how's the sound of Z1R with Sonarworks??

I still love the Z1R for other than acoustic and vocals. For me HD800S has some edge for vocals and acoustics especially with Sonarworks, it's very smooth and full. But don't get me wrong Z1R is still marvelous for other genre's especially Rock, EDM, etc. It's just that the vocals being put a bit behind. Strangely though I feel Z1R a bit more airy compared than the HD800S even though it's a closed back one  but I understand it's a very polarizing headphones. I myself never heard of Ether Flow Closed or Abyss or HD820. Thus for me Z1R is the best closed HP that I've heard.


----------



## Richter Di

dbturbo2 said:


> After you selected SW as the output for the IFI DAC, did you go into the settings in SW and select the IFI DAC as your output device?



Thanks. Finally found it. Funny enough it is not selectable (or I did not find it) in the main window but only in the little task bar at the Windows task bar. But now it works. Thank you again, because I did already give up.


----------



## dbturbo2

Richter Di said:


> Thanks. Finally found it. Funny enough it is not selectable (or I did not find it) in the main window but only in the little task bar at the Windows task bar. But now it works. Thank you again, because I did already give up.



Not sure why SW chose not to put the settings icon in the main window as well as the task bar, but glad you found it.


----------



## frank1175 (Oct 30, 2018)

Has anybody compared the LCD-X with the average Sonarworks file vs custom calibration? Is it worth the 150€? I am using the LCD-X for mixing and want to get the best out of it   Also, is everyone using sonarworks at 100% wet with LCD-X? Thanks!


----------



## Roll

Reference 4.1.7 adds 32-bit support and headphone models by Audio Technica, Pioneer, Sennheiser and more:

https://sonarworks.com/blog/referen...headphone-profiles-and-increased-daw-support/

Reference 4 supports these headphones - 60 new headphone profiles added during the last release:

https://www.sonarworks.com/reference/headphones


----------



## UprightMan

got it working fine on desktop (with external dac) but not just noise on my Fiio X7ii (bad feedback/noise).  Any idea how to get working on that?  Likely buy if I can get working there!


----------



## groovyd

Ok guys, Audeze just forced my hand on some new LCD-MX4 with the ridiculous sale they got going on right now on Amazon.  So, going to need to have these sent to Riga I guess


----------



## Bern2

groovyd said:


> Ok guys, Audeze just forced my hand on some new LCD-MX4 with the ridiculous sale they got going on right now on Amazon.  So, going to need to have these sent to Riga I guess


50% OFF!  Good job!


----------



## groovyd

Bern2 said:


> 50% OFF!  Good job!



Anything else would have been irresponsible of me


----------



## groovyd

... the weight is really what i'm after and hoping the sound is at least on equals.  hoping there is no crinkly weirdness to the diaphragm or whatever the newer models have and wondering if it makes sense to swap out the pads for vegan on this model before sending them for calibration.


----------



## frank1175

Just had my brandnew pair of LCD-XC’s sent over yesterday! Right now I love my LCD-X’s with the average profile but I will send those over for individual calibration as well. I can’t listen to my headphones without Sonarworks anymore. Even with my m50x’s that I use on the go I love them with the average profile through the mobile True-Fi app. Good work Sonarworks!


----------



## groovyd

yep, it's the biggest bang for buck investment in hifi that anyone could make to their system.


----------



## frank1175

I totally agree! And I use Sonarworks for audio mixing work too, not just for music listening


----------



## thebkt

Agreed.  I just use it for listening, but at the click of a button I have two completely different and enjoyable flavours of LCD-X, fantastic.


----------



## TheSonicTruth

I searched for this in iTunes app store and it doesn't show up. Typical search algorithm - or should I just wait a while.  I definitely want this on my iPhone and  6 Gen Touch.


----------



## audioot

Richter Di said:


> Thanks. Finally found it. Funny enough it is not selectable (or I did not find it) in the main window but only in the little task bar at the Windows task bar. But now it works. Thank you again, because I did already give up.



I have been trying to get sonarworks workable for several weeks on my HTPC with windows 10.
It has worked once but does not get it working anymore.
the audio signal goes via a spdif signal to an external dac.
Then to the headphone amplifier and akg k812.
Does anyone have a solution to this conflict with the signal processing of sonarworks 4 on the HTPC to the dac.
It also seems to me that there are several people with the same attitude and encountered problems here.
Greetings from Holland.


----------



## TheSonicTruth

audioot said:


> I have been trying to get sonarworks workable for several weeks on my HTPC with windows 10.
> It has worked once but does not get it working anymore.
> the audio signal goes via a spdif signal to an external dac.
> Then to the headphone amplifier and akg k812.
> ...



I thought it was simply installing the software/app, plugging your headphone into your desktop or phone, select your headphone model, and off you go, with accurate flat sound?


----------



## the finisher (Dec 28, 2018)

TheSonicTruth said:


> I thought it was simply installing the software/app, plugging your headphone into your desktop or phone, select your headphone model, and off you go, with accurate flat sound?




No they have much work to do with ASIO drivers, I have had many issues with win 10, waiting for some progress here

I use Reference 4 with HPs and speaker calibration and Systemwide needs work.
It will not work to pass correct bit rate. Much screwing around to manually get things working.

Hello Sonarworks


----------



## TheSonicTruth

the finisher said:


> No they have much work to do with ASIO drivers, I have had many issues with win 10, waiting for some progress here
> 
> I use Reference 4 with HPs and speaker calibration and Systemwide needs work.
> It will not work to pass correct bit rate. Much screwing around to manually get things working.
> ...



So if I want to 'flatten' the sound of a given headphone on my desktop or mobile, better to just utilize an EQ app and apply a curve that is the inverse of the curve for that headphone on, IE: Inner Fidelity.


----------



## the finisher (Dec 28, 2018)

TheSonicTruth said:


> So if I want to 'flatten' the sound of a given headphone on my desktop or mobile, better to just utilize an EQ app and apply a curve that is the inverse of the curve for that headphone on, IE: Inner Fidelity.



I like Sonarworks EQ  it's a driver thing thats the problem.
Plugin support is good they need to work on Systemwide.

Also how do propose you do this with a pro monitor speaker system?
How do you take accurate measurements cheaply, and then correct inside of  a DAW?
Same for HP actually, because they are all different. Sonarworks measures your HPs

Remember accuracy counts more here with mixing.

Also frequent MS updates break things.


----------



## audioot

the finisher said:


> No they have much work to do with ASIO drivers, I have had many issues with win 10, waiting for some progress here
> 
> I use Reference 4 with HPs and speaker calibration and Systemwide needs work.
> It will not work to pass correct bit rate. Much screwing around to manually get things working.
> ...



That is very disappointing to hear that sonarworks 4 is not working well with windows 10.
High resolution recordings are therefore also not supported I understand.
Perhaps Waves Nx Headphone EQ Calibration is an alternative to sonarworks if this problem persists.
Is sonaworks actually working to solve these problems with windows 10


----------



## audioot

audioot said:


> That is very disappointing to hear that sonarworks 4 is not working well with windows 10.
> High resolution recordings are therefore also not supported I understand.
> Perhaps Waves Nx Headphone EQ Calibration is an alternative to sonarworks if this problem persists.
> Is sonarworks actually working to solve these problems with windows 10


----------



## TheSonicTruth

the finisher said:


> I like Sonarworks EQ  it's a driver thing thats the problem.
> Plugin support is good they need to work on Systemwide.
> 
> Also how do propose you do this with a pro monitor speaker system?
> ...



Perhaps I don't understand this SonarWorks thing as much as I thought?  I assumed it came pre-loaded with complimentary(canceling) curves and all one had to do was pick their make and  model and voila, flat sound.    Measurement?  How and what would I need for Sonarworks to measure my phones?


----------



## the finisher

audioot said:


> That is very disappointing to hear that sonarworks 4 is not working well with windows 10.
> High resolution recordings are therefore also not supported I understand.
> Perhaps Waves Nx Headphone EQ Calibration is an alternative to sonarworks if this problem persists.
> Is sonaworks actually working to solve these problems with windows 10



Email have been sent so I hope so.


----------



## the finisher

TheSonicTruth said:


> Perhaps I don't understand this SonarWorks thing as much as I thought?  I assumed it came pre-loaded with complimentary(canceling) curves and all one had to do was pick their make and  model and voila, flat sound.    Measurement?  How and what would I need for Sonarworks to measure my phones?



Go to there website.


----------



## Bern2

TheSonicTruth said:


> Perhaps I don't understand this SonarWorks thing as much as I thought?  I assumed it came pre-loaded with complimentary(canceling) curves and all one had to do was pick their make and  model and voila, flat sound.    Measurement?  How and what would I need for Sonarworks to measure my phones?


You have the option to have your phone measured if you wish greater accuracy or in the event your headphone is not on their list yet.


----------



## TheSonicTruth

Bern2 said:


> You have the option to have your phone measured if you wish greater accuracy or in the event your headphone is not on their list yet.




Thank you!


----------



## groovyd

I'm torn between taking appropriate time to burn in my new MX4 and the plush pads before sending off for custom calibration and actually sending them off.  Want to be sure they are well burned in before taking the time and expense of calibration.  Dying to have it all done though.


----------



## Bern2

groovyd said:


> I'm torn between taking appropriate time to burn in my new MX4 and the plush pads before sending off for custom calibration and actually sending them off.  Want to be sure they are well burned in before taking the time and expense of calibration.  Dying to have it all done though.


I'm going to send the Z1R's in eventually....life keeps getting in the way.  Content with the HD800 generic cal for the time being.

Bern


----------



## audioot

the finisher said:


> Email have been sent so I hope so.



Yes, I certainly send an email for an explanation


----------



## ironmine (Dec 30, 2018)

If you have FabFilter Pro-Q3 VST equalizer, try *this preset* as calibration profile for Sennheiser HD6XX.
I used the Match EQ function in FabFilter Pro-Q3 to copy the calibration profile for Senn HD6XX from Sonarworks (dry/wet 80%).
It's got 24 points and matches the eq curve very accurately. I also used Voxengo SPAN spectrum analyzer VST plugin to compare Sonarworks profile vs. FabFilter profile (as the left and the right channel in the overlay mode) and they are perfectly aligned.

PS: And _*this preset*_ is for DMG Audio Equilibrium.


----------



## Roll

TheSonicTruth said:


> Perhaps I don't understand this SonarWorks thing as much as I thought?  I assumed it came pre-loaded with complimentary(canceling) curves and all one had to do was pick their make and  model and voila, flat sound.    Measurement?  How and what would I need for Sonarworks to measure my phones?



Just in case u missed it, the manual, hopefully she helps

https://www.sonarworks.com/reference/tutorials/studio-edition-manual


----------



## TheSonicTruth

Roll said:


> Just in case u missed it, the manual, hopefully she helps
> 
> https://www.sonarworks.com/reference/tutorials/studio-edition-manual



Ok.  That's for speakers.

Guess I was focused more on the one specifically for headphones.


----------



## TheSonicTruth

If they show, does anyone have calibration numbers for Sony MDR-7506(Freq, Q-value, + or - amplitude)?


----------



## ironmine

I also made the calibration presets for *Denon D2000* (they are copied, i.e. EQ-matched, from TB Morphit, dry/wet 70%):
_*FabFilter Pro-Q3*_
_*DMG Audio Equilibrium*_


----------



## talmadge

Is anyone using this on a mac with Audirvana+, J River Media 24 or Plex? I can not get True Fi to work with any these. I get sound through them but the eq does not work.  It works fine for me with Tidal.


----------



## talmadge

Got it figured out with Audirvana + so I'll go with it.


----------



## audioot

fortunately I have sonarworks 4 working on my HTPC with windows 10 via VLC player or other media players
However, it does not work yet when using powerDVD.
probably an audio conflict powerDVD / sonarworks.
Does anyone have an idea or solution for power DVD.

Greetings from Holland


----------



## kumar402 (Jan 10, 2019)

i am facing issue with SOnarworks. The app crashes as soon as there is change in sample rate.
As long as the sample rate is same the app works fine but it crashes as soon as the sample rate changes.
I am using Audirvana + in my MacBook pro and output is to Mojo. Anyone else faced this issue?


----------



## Shooter41

kumar402 said:


> i am facing issue with SOnarworks. The app crashes as soon as there is change in sample rate.
> As long as the sample rate is same the app works fine but it crashes as soon as the sample rate changes.
> I am using Audirvana + in my MacBook pro and output is to Mojo. Anyone else faced this issue?



Yep, I had the same issue. though I use Pure Music.  Sorry to say the only fix for me was to upgrade from True-Fi to Reference 4.  It's just a much more complete and "fully-baked" app.  The UI is also way better.  No issues of any kind since the upgrade.


----------



## groovyd (Jan 11, 2019)

kumar402 said:


> i am facing issue with SOnarworks. The app crashes as soon as there is change in sample rate.
> As long as the sample rate is same the app works fine but it crashes as soon as the sample rate changes.
> I am using Audirvana + in my MacBook pro and output is to Mojo. Anyone else faced this issue?



yep, their systemwide is fairly unstable and not much has been fixed on it since it was first released.  unfortunate since it is the most valuable component of their ecosystem in my opinion.  there was a better 'systemwide' called menuBus Pro and it does still exist however the developer got a job with Rogue Amoeba and they made him discontinue development.  It is still the best 'systemwide' available and if you can manage a copy it's highly recommended.

personally, I was really hoping Sonarworks would buy menuBus from the developer and replace systemwide with a variant of it.  I actually helped write the engine for it in highly optimized c++. it is bit perfect and bulletproof.


----------



## kumar402

Shooter41 said:


> Yep, I had the same issue. though I use Pure Music.  Sorry to say the only fix for me was to upgrade from True-Fi to Reference 4.  It's just a much more complete and "fully-baked" app.  The UI is also way better.  No issues of any kind since the upgrade.


They should highlight that as known issue and make buyer informed. 
It's an irritating bug and as a result I have stopped using it. 
Also it's not a free and inexpensive tool.


----------



## kumar402

kumar402 said:


> They should highlight that as known issue and make buyer informed.
> It's an irritating bug and as a result I have stopped using it.
> Also it's not a free and inexpensive tool.


They should fix that s issue or must let Mac user know about it.


----------



## the finisher (Jan 12, 2019)

Systemwide sucks, I'm on Win 10 pro. 

I have the full Reference 4 suite.


----------



## MikeW (Jan 15, 2019)

Been trying out True-Fi.. it's pretty buggy. Exclusive mode does not work with my Schiit Bifrost Multibit. That means it's using directsound and going though the windows mixer. That's no bueno. It also appears to re sample everything to 44.1, this is obvious on tidal master tracks' that don't switch to 96 khz properly.

Apart from that it does sound nice, and it makes me really want a Loki. Something that always works and does not rely on buggy ass software, works with CD players, works without a PC, requires no updates and has no software to crap out. I get most of my music though Tidal Premium and the fact that it lacks built in tone control is super annoying. Loki don't care though, it just works.


----------



## groovyd

DHL managed to pickup my MX4 for custom calibration... measure twice cut once Sonarworks and god speed


----------



## groovyd (Jan 20, 2019)

And after fighting with Measure for ever since I got it I finally managed to get a clean Ref4 run of calibrations to replace my Ref3 for both my sets of Maggie Minis and 20.7s home speakers.  The entire process was much smoother this time now that I replaced my TAC-2 Thunderbolt 2 audio interface with a UniversalAudio Arrow Thunderbolt 3 interface which appears to have much lower latency and a signal less effected by the thunderbolt bus power noise.  It appears to be a cleaner all around audio interface with less mic noise, more precise sampling, etc.  The issue I was having with Measure never saving my profiles also seems to have been fixed in their latest release v4.1.10  (build 20).

Here is a comparison between the Ref3 (old) calibrations on top and the Ref4 (new) on bottom with the 20.7s on the left and the minis on the right.  Surprising how similar they are to the Ref3 taken with the TAC-2 with the biggest difference being the tighter listening spot differences between left and right speakers and a nearly 3db boost above 1k on both.  In other words it appears Ref3 was possibly under-estimating the highs (or Ref4 is overestimating them).  Incidentally while Ref4 'might' be more accurate I might actually prefer the Ref3 corrections.  The Ref4 listening spot adjustment works much better in Ref4 though and i'm guessing Ref4 did do a better job but my ears are just used to Ref3.  Ref4 highs seem a bit flat at first audition.  Anyone else notice this?

I should also mention these measurements were taken years apart using vastly different audio interfaces and versions of Sonarworks with vastly different measurement processes but the same calibrated mic and so it is impressive to see how 'repeatable' the measured response curves actually are in most places along their entire sweep.  Honestly I was expecting them to not even look at all alike especially considering a lot has changed within the room space since then and even the planar speaker drivers themselves are likely changed from deposit of burnt cooking oil and pollution in the air (ie everything else in the room eventually has a coating of crud on it).

I am guessing most of the reason the mini measurements have changed so significantly vs the 20.7s is I recently put the minis up on genelux stands and are now at level with the mic instead of sitting on my desk 8" below it.

Absolutely can't wait until Ref5 is released including phase/impulse correction.  That is going to be a huge improvement.


----------



## groovyd

DHL tracking shows the MX4 has landed in Riga... awaiting acceptance by Sonarworks


----------



## iFlip92

Anyone know if they are going to add Mr. Speakerz Aeon Flow to the software?


----------



## foreverzer0

For HD800, this is the configuration I've ended up with liking most:


----------



## InAnimaTed

@MikeW True-Fi has actually worked great for me on Mac. Really like what it does for my old ATH-M50x's but can't justify putting money (79 i think) into it over buying a dac+amp and bitstreaming at hi-res (with headphones having a freq response i prefer).


----------



## MikeW (Jan 30, 2019)

Yeah, don't get me wrong im a believer in EQ. But i've yet to find a system wide solution that just works without handicaps, particularly bypassing the windows mixer. Equalizer APO is good but it gets mixed, and the WASAPI mode for true fi did not work with my  DAC, i just got horrible distortion. There's also other issues of software solutions, like random bugs, things like not working with games, or  youtube, or  your favorite streaming app... software EQ's just a pain in the ass. Especially for those  who run both headphones and speakers and need independent EQ settings for both. I use HD650's and JBL LSR305's and both have their own equalization needs, my room has a sizable bass bump that needs to be delt with.. software EQ again is a big let-down. I've recently purchased a RME ADI-2 and hope to resolve all my woe's with a solid hardware based EQ solution. My primary source of music is Tidal, now that is a real pain in the ass to get any kind of EQ working with. It's really ridiculous, the hoops one must jump though. I've been told  you can use Jriver but that's a paid piece of software and I've yet to try it, regardless it's some convoluted setup of routing Tidal to Jriver then applying EQ sourced from a plugin that allows the use of VST software.. what a pain in the ass.

I'll take my EQ before or after windows, were I can truly apply systemwide, source independent EQ. And by the way ,  the windows mixer does seriously handicap quality. I can easily hear it, so much so that im confident I could Double blind it.


----------



## groovyd

MikeW said:


> Yeah, don't get me wrong im a believer in EQ. But i've yet to find a system wide solution that just works without handicaps, particularly bypassing the windows mixer. Equalizer APO is good but it gets mixed, and the WASAPI mode for true fi did not work with my  DAC, i just got horrible distortion. There's also other issues of software solutions, like random bugs, things like not working with games, or  youtube, or  your favorite streaming app... software EQ's just a pain in the ass. Especially for those  who run both headphones and speakers and need independent EQ settings for both. I use HD650's and JBL LSR305's and both have their own equalization needs, my room has a sizable bass bump that needs to be delt with.. software EQ again is a big let-down. I've recently purchased a RME ADI-2 and hope to resolve all my woe's with a solid hardware based EQ solution. My primary source of music is Tidal, now that is a real pain in the ass to get any kind of EQ working with. It's really ridiculous, the hoops one must jump though. I've been told  you can use Jriver but that's a paid piece of software and I've yet to try it, regardless it's some convoluted setup of routing Tidal to Jriver then applying EQ sourced from a plugin that allows the use of VST software.. what a pain in the ass.
> 
> I'll take my EQ before or after windows, were I can truly apply systemwide, source independent EQ. And by the way ,  the windows mixer does seriously handicap quality. I can easily hear it, so much so that im confident I could Double blind it.



menuBus for macOS is the best systemwide there is but there isn't an equivalent for Windows and Sonarworks systemwide really needs some serious work.


----------



## kendetamas

audioot said:


> I have been trying to get sonarworks workable for several weeks on my HTPC with windows 10.
> It has worked once but does not get it working anymore.
> the audio signal goes via a spdif signal to an external dac.
> Then to the headphone amplifier and akg k812.
> ...



Hello!

Can you remark on the sound of the akg k812 with the sonarworks preset? Is the peak around 5 Khz gone?


----------



## Bern2 (Feb 26, 2019)

kendetamas said:


> Hello!
> 
> Can you remark on the sound of the akg k812 with the sonarworks preset? Is the peak around 5 Khz gone?


Here's the generic measurement that Sonarworks compensates for. (AKG812).

edit..For some reason I can't upload the file...sorry.

PM'd.


----------



## Roll

kendetamas said:


> Hello!
> 
> Can you remark on the sound of the akg k812 with the sonarworks preset? Is the peak around 5 Khz gone?



Here is at 80% Dry/Wet.


----------



## TheSonicTruth

Roll said:


> Here is at 80% Dry/Wet.



Are the Frequencies, plus/minus Gains, and Q's listed for that?

Would love for my DT-880s and Sony 7506's!


----------



## Roll

TheSonicTruth said:


> Are the Frequencies, plus/minus Gains, and Q's listed for that?
> 
> Would love for my DT-880s and Sony 7506's!



Free trial - DT880 and 7506 is on the list of headphones

Why Your Headphones Sound Terrible! Sonarworks Reference 4 - NAMM 2018:


----------



## kumar402 (Feb 28, 2019)

finally found some use of Sonarworks True-fi in my set up. It was one of those impulsive purchase during thanksgiving deals.
I am Roon or Audirvana users and my collection has music from of all sample rate and thats where my problem lies. True-Fi crashes with change in sample rate and I ended up investing in Roon to use the DSP for my 800s and 600 and because of its fantastic interface.
Long time Audirvana user will definitely fell in love with Roon's interface.
I subscribed to Qobuz and use Roon to listen to it. However I listen to lot of Bollywood music as well and Qobuz doesn't have great selection of bollywood music and hence I am subscriber of Apple music as well as it has all Bollywood Music.
Thats where True-fi comes to my rescue. When i use Roon i just disable True-Fi and use its own DSP engine with my EQ running. However when i switch to apple music, I enable True-fi as the sample rate will always remain 44.1Khz with apple music and I no longer have the issue of application crash and can still use the sound profile tuned for 800s and 600.
Finally I can justify the money I spent.


----------



## TheSonicTruth (Mar 1, 2019)

Roll said:


> Free trial - DT880 and 7506 is on the list of headphones
> 
> Why Your Headphones Sound Terrible! Sonarworks Reference 4 - NAMM 2018:




What I am asking specifically is, along with those pretty graphs showing before and after calibration, is there a page/screen showing a list of adjustments made, and at which frequencies?

Google 'tv calibration' - folks share their picture settings all the time!  Should be ok to do between owners of the same makes and models of headphones.


----------



## Bern2

TheSonicTruth said:


> What I am asking specifically is, along with those pretty graphs showing before and after calibration, is there a page/screen showing a list of adjustments made, and at which frequencies?
> 
> Google 'tv calibration' - folks share their picture settings all the time!  Should be ok to do between owners of the same makes and models of headphones.


No there isn't.  This isn't folks sharing EQ settings..it's a company offering a product to studios and consumers.  They offer a free trial.  You have nothing to lose but some time.  Only you can decide if it's worth that to you.  I use it for the HD800.  I have come across other EQ settings for Eqyalizer/APO which work fairly well, but I like the adjustments offer'd in Sonarworks for the bass and tilt controls.


----------



## TheSonicTruth (Mar 1, 2019)

Bern2 said:


> No there isn't.  This isn't folks sharing EQ settings..it's a company offering a product to studios and consumers.  They offer a free trial.  You have nothing to lose but some time.  Only you can decide if it's worth that to you.  I use it for the HD800.  I have come across other EQ settings for Eqyalizer/APO which work fairly well, but I like the adjustments offer'd in Sonarworks for the bass and tilt controls.



Awww..  No harm in folks  sharing  settings  now, is there?  It is the Christian thing to do, right?  Helpin' a brother?  The man at 1600 helped a lot of his pals


----------



## Bern2

TheSonicTruth said:


> Awww..  No harm in folks  sharing  settings  now, is there?  It is the Christian thing to do, right?  Helpin' a brother?  The man at 1600 helped a lot of his pals


Give SW a try...you may like it for it's flexibility.

I'll refrain from commenting about Mr. 1600....I'm getting ready for the rapture.


----------



## Roll

TheSonicTruth said:


> What I am asking specifically is, along with those pretty graphs showing before and after calibration, is there a page/screen showing a list of adjustments made, and at which frequencies?
> 
> Google 'tv calibration' - folks share their picture settings all the time!  Should be ok to do between owners of the same makes and models of headphones.



Maybe this could be of help:

https://github.com/jaakkopasanen/AutoEq

List of all equalization profiles
https://github.com/jaakkopasanen/AutoEq/blob/master/results/INDEX.md


----------



## TheSonicTruth

Roll said:


> Maybe this could be of help:
> 
> https://github.com/jaakkopasanen/AutoEq
> 
> ...



Thanks!  


This should be interesting!


----------



## scarfacegt

Anyone else having problem with the true fi app on windows? I cant add new headphone.It says an error acured


----------



## jnorris

I've gotten that error when I tried to access the headphone list while offline. Were you connected to the internet when you tried it?


----------



## scarfacegt

jnorris said:


> I've gotten that error when I tried to access the headphone list while offline. Were you connected to the internet when you tried it?



Yes.But now it finally works again


----------



## Bern2

Is anyone using Sonarworks to correct their Fostex th900 MKII?  This is on my short list for my next headphone.  Would appreciate any thoughts you may have on it.  The TH900 MKII and the Blue edition have both been added.

Bern


----------



## Roll

60 new headphone profiles added during the last release

https://www.sonarworks.com/reference/headphones


----------



## TheSonicTruth

Numbers, numbers!  Freq, Q, gain, etc


----------



## jnorris

I've been a staunch supporter of Sonarworks for over a year now.  I own both Reference 4 Headphone and True-Fi (which I primarily bought for True-Fi for Android - which never came out of beta).  I have even recommended them to people on this forum.  But I have to tell you that I've uninstalled all of it in favor of EqualizerAPO with HeSuVi.  Not only does it come with better support with all my headphones, but it also allows you to tweak the equalization to your personal liking, as well as create your own headphone profiles.  I've created customized profiles for the Shure SE535, the KZ-ES4, my desktop Martin Logan Motion 2's, my bookshelf Celestions, and a bunch more.  The default profile for the Grado SR-325 literally transforms them into something special, and there are literally hundreds of headphones and in-ears that are supported directly - many with multiple profiles.

There is a brisk learning curve, but as you get familiar with the program you'll find it is very flexible and well thought-out.  They've even allowed for the creation of desktop or Start Menu shortcuts which will switch between headphone (or speaker) profiles.

Well done!


----------



## talmadge

Does it work with a Mac?


----------



## jnorris

I don't think so.


----------



## groovyd

Roll said:


> 60 new headphone profiles added during the last release
> 
> https://www.sonarworks.com/reference/headphones



yeah problem is i'm waiting for the HE-1 average


----------



## jnorris

I got tired of waiting for the Shure (or any other) in-ears to be supported by Reference 4.  That's another reason I changed to Equalizer APO.


----------



## thebkt

Tried updating the supported headphone list but no bueno.






Anyone have any idea? Searching their support page atm.


----------



## jnorris

If this is the first time you've tried it, your firewall may be in the way if it's turned on.  I've had trouble with True-Fi's updates, also.


----------



## MattTCG

Interested in impressions of the Aeon Flow with the new profile. Anyone?


----------



## donato (Apr 18, 2019)

MattTCG said:


> Interested in impressions of the Aeon Flow with the new profile. Anyone?



Yes.  Inquiring minds want to know!


----------



## shoaibexpert

I tried the Sonarworks Headphone Edition on my HD800S a few days ago after struggling for literally months to get them to sound right... Oratory, FlipFlop...you name it...tried all EQs around... understood the Harman Target...read papers...delved deep as most aspiring Audiophiles do...and lo and behold, the solution to perfect sound was always right there...

Sonarworks HD800S profile literally made my headphones sound special. Details come across effortlessly, listening fatigue...a thing of the past...all this for a well rather expensive price...but I am compelled to buy it anyway!

Two qualms: 

1) One is price...any ideas if they come on sale and at what time?
2) My other top tier headphone is the HiFiMan Arya and it's profile is not there (though I've asked them to add it ASAP)...Any ideas how frequently they update or add to their list of supported headphones? Would you guys advise to just have it sent for individual calibration or to wait for it to be added?

I am an avid listener of good music and run my Tidal HiFi (like never before with this SW) via my Windows PC to SMSL M500 to THX AAA 789 and have now let go of my plan to upgrade my DAC due to above reasons...


----------



## foreverzer0

shoaibexpert said:


> I tried the Sonarworks Headphone Edition on my HD800S a few days ago after struggling for literally months to get them to sound right... Oratory, FlipFlop...you name it...tried all EQs around... understood the Harman Target...read papers...delved deep as most aspiring Audiophiles do...and lo and behold, the solution to perfect sound was always right there...
> 
> Sonarworks HD800S profile literally made my headphones sound special. Details come across effortlessly, listening fatigue...a thing of the past...all this for a well rather expensive price...but I am compelled to buy it anyway!
> 
> ...



For Reference 4, profiles are released less often. It’s more often for their consumer product (used to be True-fi, but recently launched SoundID) which is similar but allows personalized preference on the sound. The individual calibration would have a higher accuracy than an averaged one, so if you can spare the change it's not a bad idea. Though it’ll be pricey if you add the service, shipping/insurance to Latvia, and new pads (which are recommended for measurements).


----------



## Bern2

shoaibexpert said:


> 1) One is price...any ideas if they come on sale and at what time?.


I think I got it on sale for 79.  I'm using ref 3 for the HD800.  I too tried various EQ's without success.  
I always have meant to send in the Sony Z1R's...but haven't done it yet.  Right now I'm in the middle of a move (God only knows where at this point...I'm at my sisters waiting everything out)...so all my gear is boxed up.  Only kept out the bare essentials for listening.  Sony daps and AQ NightHawk.

Bern


----------



## tgx78

Dang I miss HD800 with sonarworks which I was force to sell for financial reason years ago. 

It sounded so correct for lack of a better word.


----------



## foreverzer0

Reference 4 does go on sale occasionally. It was just on sale recently actually.


----------



## jnorris

I don't think $99 is too much for Reference 4 Headphone, but that said, I moved away from Sonarworks to the freeware EqualizerAPO / HeSuVi combination.  I moved for two reasons: the first is the glacier-like speed with which Sonarworks adds headphone profiles.  It's been years and many of my headphones are unsupported.  The second is, outside of the bass and treble contours available, there is no means of adjusting the profiles manually to better accommodate your phones.  The EqualizerAPO / HeSuVi addresses both those issues by coming with over 700 headphone profiles, and providing nearly unlimited customization both for the provided profiles and for your own scratch-built profiles.  It's much more flexible.  As for SoundID, the thought of paying monthly for something that you set once and forget is ridiculous to me.  Paying monthly for a music service in order to access a huge music library makes sense - SoundID does not.


----------



## foreverzer0 (May 14, 2020)

jnorris said:


> I don't think $99 is too much for Reference 4 Headphone, but that said, I moved away from Sonarworks to the freeware EqualizerAPO / HeSuVi combination.  I moved for two reasons: the first is the glacier-like speed with which Sonarworks adds headphone profiles.  It's been years and many of my headphones are unsupported.  The second is, outside of the bass and treble contours available, there is no means of adjusting the profiles manually to better accommodate your phones.  The EqualizerAPO / HeSuVi addresses both those issues by coming with over 700 headphone profiles, and providing nearly unlimited customization both for the provided profiles and for your own scratch-built profiles.  It's much more flexible.  As for SoundID, the thought of paying monthly for something that you set once and forget is ridiculous to me.  Paying monthly for a music service in order to access a huge music library makes sense - SoundID does not.



It's the route most tech/app-based pricing is going to have recurring revenue vs one time; many web-apps are already this way. Even Roon is similar if you don't purchase their lifetime membership. As for SoundID, if you purchased True-fi before, I believe you also get a lifetime subscription to SoundID.

As for Equalizer APO, that only runs on Windows, unfortunately.


----------



## jnorris

foreverzer0 said:


> It's the route most tech/app-based pricing is going to have recurring revenue vs one time; many web-apps are already this way. Even Roon is similar if you don't purchase their lifetime membership. As for SoundID, if you purchased True-fi before, I believe you also get a lifetime subscription to SoundID.
> 
> As for Equalizer APO, that only runs on Windows, unfortunately.



I purchased both True-Fi and Reference 4 Headphone, but have abandoned both.  I have also stopped using EqualizerAPO as well.  I realized I was using it to make all my headphones sound the same (to whatever extent possible).  I have come to appreciate the sound differences of my many headphones, and the thought put into them by their designers and engineers, rather than trying to shoehorn them into a rather narrow set of parameters.


----------



## foreverzer0

jnorris said:


> I purchased both True-Fi and Reference 4 Headphone, but have abandoned both.  I have also stopped using EqualizerAPO as well.  I realized I was using it to make all my headphones sound the same (to whatever extent possible).  I have come to appreciate the sound differences of my many headphones, and the thought put into them by their designers and engineers, rather than trying to shoehorn them into a rather narrow set of parameters.



lol they're supposed to sound more or less the same when using reference 4, since it's supposed to bring them closer to reference frequency response. This is useful as a tool to have consistency when mixing/mastering. As for listening pleasure, True-fi had some bass/treble controls for flavor but kept the mids reference. SoundID is supposed to augment this by asking users to A/B test to their personal preference like an eye exam, then produced a profile based on the user preference.

In one sense, the reference level sound is kind of what "the artist" or "engineer" intended if both are calibrated to reference.


----------



## shoaibexpert

foreverzer0 said:


> For Reference 4, profiles are released less often. It’s more often for their consumer product (used to be True-fi, but recently launched SoundID) which is similar but allows personalized preference on the sound. The individual calibration would have a higher accuracy than an averaged one, so if you can spare the change it's not a bad idea. Though it’ll be pricey if you add the service, shipping/insurance to Latvia, and new pads (which are recommended for measurements).


Thanks. Sound ID is a subscription based service I believe...no go for me as I hate to pay things for like forever. Do you need to pay anything extra for any Software if you have your headphones calibrated individually or just the $150 for the calibration service? Also, isn't shipping both ways included in the price or do they only include one leg ie from Sonarworks to your home and the customer pays for shipment to Sonarworks?

Also, wonder if it's safe to ship headphones during COVID situation...


----------



## shoaibexpert

jnorris said:


> I purchased both True-Fi and Reference 4 Headphone, but have abandoned both.  I have also stopped using EqualizerAPO as well.  I realized I was using it to make all my headphones sound the same (to whatever extent possible).  I have come to appreciate the sound differences of my many headphones, and the thought put into them by their designers and engineers, rather than trying to shoehorn them into a rather narrow set of parameters.


Hi, I suggest you reinstall Reference 4, listen to it on your headphone profile with calibration on for 5 mins and then turn off the calibration and then report if you can stand your default headphone tuning...


----------



## jnorris

shoaibexpert said:


> Hi, I suggest you reinstall Reference 4, listen to it on your headphone profile with calibration on for 5 mins and then turn off the calibration and then report if you can stand your default headphone tuning...



I've done that...a lot.  Initially it's quite a shock going back to "nature", if you will, but after my ears and brain acclimate I find I enjoy the headphones without the equalization.  The same thing happened to me back in the '70s when I was using an equalizer on my Dynaco A25s - even though the sound was more exciting with the eq in, it was just more natural with it out and I wound up disconnecting it.

This is a very personal decision so I realize that there aren't many people that will agree with me.  I used True-Fi and Reference 4 for a long time, switched to EqualizerAPO after becoming disillusioned with Sonarworks headphone support and used that for a long time - even developing specific profiles for 12 different headphone and speaker models, and then just removed it all and started enjoying my headphones for what they are.


----------



## foreverzer0 (May 15, 2020)

jnorris said:


> I've done that...a lot.  Initially it's quite a shock going back to "nature", if you will, but after my ears and brain acclimate I find I enjoy the headphones without the equalization.  The same thing happened to me back in the '70s when I was using an equalizer on my Dynaco A25s - even though the sound was more exciting with the eq in, it was just more natural with it out and I wound up disconnecting it.
> 
> This is a very personal decision so I realize that there aren't many people that will agree with me.  I used True-Fi and Reference 4 for a long time, switched to EqualizerAPO after becoming disillusioned with Sonarworks headphone support and used that for a long time - even developing specific profiles for 12 different headphone and speaker models, and then just removed it all and started enjoying my headphones for what they are.


I think this also depends on the headphones, how heavy-handed the eq needs to be to push towards reference and how much distortion that may introduce. Some headphones can EQ better than others (usually if it's very low distortion or neutral-ish to begin with, allows a lot more headroom or less EQ). For speakers, since your room/acoustics is the largest impact on the sound, it can vary. Ideally, you'd optimize as much as you can physically in the room space and acoustic treatment, then finally apply dsp/eq for the last bit (to not have to apply too much eq). However, this can help with natural imaging and balance and even professional studios do this to also aim for reference.


----------



## InstantSilence

This sonarworks or audeze reveal + for audeze cans, has anyone tried?


----------



## stuck limo

I am having problems with Sonarworks. It visually functions when I press all the buttons, turn on/off SR, etc, but audibly nothing happens. I can do SR, bass boost, tilt, etc. and the program tells me it's working but it's clearly, audibly not working. 

I have Sonarworks Reference 4 for Headphones running on Windows 10.  Should I reinstall it or what's going on? (running it for my HD 800)


----------



## kumar402

stuck limo said:


> I am having problems with Sonarworks. It visually functions when I press all the buttons, turn on/off SR, etc, but audibly nothing happens. I can do SR, bass boost, tilt, etc. and the program tells me it's working but it's clearly, audibly not working.
> 
> I have Sonarworks Reference 4 for Headphones running on Windows 10.  Should I reinstall it or what's going on? (running it for my HD 800)


In MacBook you have to select Sonarworks as output device in audio settings, may be you don’t have sonarworks set as output device.


----------



## overhaze

I have to say I'm quite disappointed with Sound ID. I keep running the preference test over and over because every time I try the results on my desktop it sounds terrible. Also retesting with different headphones always give different results. Honestly all I want  is the data from the hearing test applied to the Harman Curve . That would be some endgame correction for me.


----------



## groovyd

InstantSilence said:


> This sonarworks or audeze reveal + for audeze cans, has anyone tried?



Sonarworks FTW


----------



## InstantSilence

groovyd said:


> Sonarworks FTW


Absolutely hated it. 
Reveal is far nicer.


----------



## groovyd (Jun 15, 2020)

InstantSilence said:


> Absolutely hated it.
> Reveal is far nicer.



Were you using the average profile correction or custom? Ref 4 or their lower-end products?  My Ref 4 custom correction across all my headphones and speakers is absolutely flawless. Also appreciate that Sonarworks supports all brands of product as equals.


----------



## InstantSilence

groovyd said:


> Were you using the average profile correction or custom? Ref 4 or their lower-end products?  My Ref 4 custom correction across all my headphones and speakers is absolutely flawless. Also appreciate that Sonarworks supports all brands of product as equals.


Ref 4. Just didn't sound good. 
Got audeze reveal + and it's amazing


----------



## groovyd

InstantSilence said:


> Ref 4. Just didn't sound good.
> Got audeze reveal + and it's amazing



guessing audeze average profile might be more accurate to their true averages since they sample every unit before it leaves.  Could also be colored a bit to feature that 'audeze sound'.  With Sonarworks I noticed a very big difference between the average profile and custom but yeah sending your headphones to Latvia to be calibrated isn't a light process.


----------



## TheSonicTruth

Does Sonarworks provide a list of, at least, the top 5-10 biggest adjustments made to the average curve for headphones?   Freq, Q, and Gain(plus or minus)?

I'm seeking figures for the Sony MDR-7506 and the Beyer DT880 250ohm Pro: General correction, not individual, is fine.

The Equalizer app on all my mobiles has a maximum of 7 parametric adjustments, so I can recreate most Sonarworks calibration curves with a high level of confidence.


----------



## gooeyrich

Can anyone tell me how sonarworks compares to this: https://audirvana.com/


----------



## alekc

gooeyrich said:


> Can anyone tell me how sonarworks compares to this: https://audirvana.com/



Those are two very different things. Audirvana is a music player not headphone DSP plugin.


----------



## alekc

InstantSilence said:


> Ref 4. Just didn't sound good.
> Got audeze reveal + and it's amazing



I hope this is not too far off topic but I wonder have you tried Toneboosters Morphit? I would say on some tracks it sounds better than Audeze plugin, at least that is the case with LCD-1. Can't really compare with Sonarworks Ref 4 Headphone Edition since it does not support any of my cans unfortunately.


----------



## sigi

I wonder if it is just me... or the change in the frequency response is fulling me?

I've been doing a lot of ear training lately (soundgym) and the better I get the less I like what Sonarworks is doing...

I just feel that it somehow chokes the sound stage or the sound just goes dead when Sonarworks calibration is engaged... (as in, the sound sounds more alive without Sonarworks) ...

For instance with the Senns HD800 while I get it/ I hear it that the frequency response gets a lot more linear but it reduces the HD800's to "cheaper" pair of headphones.

I tried it with linear phase, with zero latency and in between ...also tried it from 30% to 95% dry/wet - but all the same it just doesn't sound right for me.


----------



## TheSonicTruth (Nov 13, 2020)

sigi said:


> I wonder if it is just me... or the change in the frequency response is fulling me?
> 
> I've been doing a lot of ear training lately (soundgym) and the better I get the less I like
> what Sonarworks is doing...
> ...



Fundamentally, you're just not used to flat audio reproduction.

As a TV calibrator, I get the same response from half of my clients:  "it's too dim", "dull", etc.


----------



## sigi

TheSonicTruth said:


> Fundamentally, you're just not used to flat audio reproduction.
> 
> As a TV calibrator, I get the same response from half of my clients:  "it's too dim", "dull", etc.



I feel the same at 30% or less wet ... and the sound is far from flat there (deviations of 8-10db +- from "zero") -  I think I am used to flattish sound signatures with Audio Technica R70X or HD6xx (these don't deviate from zero with more than 3db, out of the box, without any calibration)


----------



## TheSonicTruth

sigi said:


> I feel the same at 30% or less wet ... and the sound is far from flat there
> (deviations of 8-10db +- from "zero") -  I think I am used to flattish sound
> signatures with Audio Technica R70X or HD6xx (these don't deviate from zero
> with more than 3db, out of the box, without any calibration)



So you're used to 'built flat', not 'corrected' flat(as in, corrected by software)?


----------



## castleofargh

TheSonicTruth said:


> Fundamentally, you're just not used to flat audio reproduction.
> 
> As a TV calibrator, I get the same response from half of my clients:  "it's too dim", "dull", etc.


There certainly is a matter or habit. And with something like the HD800, people can easily confuse the impression of big lateral distance that most people feel, with the idea of right sound. So anytime the instruments on the sides come closer or move somewhere else, many will assume it's a sign that the FR is going in the wrong direction. Which in practice doesn't mean that at all, as most stereo albums weren't made for headphone playback in the first place. 
So you could very well be correct about @sigi . But contrary to calibrating a screen, the reference for flat on a headphone(doesn't really exist IMO) is not the same for everybody. It objectively isn't, as HRTF gets involved and different people simply have different HRTF. Sonarworks, the Harman target, or any other notion of a reference target on headphone, objective or subjective, can only work for so many people. When it does, that's great news for the user. And when it doesn't, oh well, better luck next time. @sigi not finding his compensated HD800 to sound right, does not automatically mean he needs to relearn what neutral is. The same conversation about screens, printers, or speakers and I would conclude the same as you. But headphone playback is different.


----------



## sigi

I'll explain with an example...
There is a game on Soundgym called Reverb Wizard. Three sounds are played and one has a different reverb setting - you have to catch that one. It is easy at the beginning but as you progress though the levels the differences become more and more subtle. You can find the odd on out if you catch subtle differences in the reverb tail or the vocals sound more or less up front than the others...

(BTW if you haven't already - try Soundgym out  ... I am at about level 60 with this perticular game - and I've been at the diamond ear status for quite a while now - I am not telling this to brag about it but just to make it clear that my listening skills are getting regular training)

So the thing with the Sonarworks calibrated HD800 is that with the calibration bypassed it is easier to hear the really subtle differences...  And I am quite sure this has nothing to do with the flatness of the frequency response, as I am experiencing this with the calibration set to 30-40% wet - where the frequency response is far from flat. It is simply that the filters/EQ used for the frequency correction does something to the sound that I can not really put into words or I can not consciously say what that change is, but the sound of the headphones, the sound stage becomes less clear ...


----------



## sigi

sigi said:


> .... ....
> ...../EQ used for the frequency correction does something to the sound that I can not really put into words or I can not consciously say what that change is, but the sound of the headphones, the sound stage becomes less clear ...



I just picked the reverb example as it has more to do with - and this is not a technical term - the sound reproduction of a headphone being more 3D ... and with SW it becomes less 3D...


----------



## TheSonicTruth (Nov 15, 2020)

castleofargh said:


> There certainly is a matter or habit. And with something like the HD800, people can
> easily confuse the impression of big lateral distance that most people feel, with the
> idea of right sound. So anytime the instruments on the sides come closer or move
> somewhere else, many will assume it's a sign that the FR is going in the wrong
> ...



I'm aware of HRTF(head-related transfer function).  Which is why I would rather start off with a headphone that is engineered flat to begin with.  I can personally EQ it to overcome my individual HRTF at home.  Something which cannot be done with V-shaped boom & sizzlers such as Beats or some Skully Candy models.


----------



## castleofargh

sigi said:


> I'll explain with an example...
> There is a game on Soundgym called Reverb Wizard. Three sounds are played and one has a different reverb setting - you have to catch that one. It is easy at the beginning but as you progress though the levels the differences become more and more subtle. You can find the odd on out if you catch subtle differences in the reverb tail or the vocals sound more or less up front than the others...
> 
> (BTW if you haven't already - try Soundgym out  ... I am at about level 60 with this perticular game - and I've been at the diamond ear status for quite a while now - I am not telling this to brag about it but just to make it clear that my listening skills are getting regular training)
> ...


If what you're after is the most revealing sound, then something with an emphasis on the treble is likely to work great most of the time. But that's obviously not the purpose of Sonarworks on headphones. On occasion it could help pick up audio cues better. Like if the initial frequency response of the headphone was a mess, or if it was tuned real warm. but that's more of a lucky side effect than it is the purpose of the the app.
With something like the HD800, I would expect flat-ish for my ears to have a great deal less energy in the upper frequencies compared to the default tuning. And indeed that would probably make me less successful at some audio tests. Different priorities, different choices. 

Also, perhaps try to forget the wet/dry option when testing like you do. A mix down of half way done things isn't necessarily less processing(depending on how they do it, it could actually be more), and it is unlikely to have any sort of merit in term of seeking perceived neutral. That option is more of a preference setting IMO. which is yet another criteria that may or may not align with perceived neutral or increased details.
When it comes to seeking the artist's intent, I believe that perceived neutral is the way. But I also understand that the original intent for almost all stereo albums was speaker playback anyway. So that might not be a headphone user's top priority. Headphone playback is indeed giving more details/clarity than speaker playback(higher fidelity transducers, no room reverb, little to no mixing of the channels). And while it's everything I personally try to get away from, I do understand how many audiophiles(including some of my audio buddies) can find it particularly appealing. For them it's an approach toward fidelity, while speaker playback only turns audio into some soft mush. Again, different folks... Just define what you want and by all means, go for it.  if that particular app doesn't do what you want, to quote my previous post: "oh well, better luck next time "


----------



## networkn

So I heard about Sonarworks and on Black Friday got a deal and purchased it. Didn't get a lot of time to evaluate it, but I think I am doing something wrong. 

There seems to be zero difference in sound between it on and off? I have specified the headphones HD800S, and the output to my BiFrost via USB, then using the big power button, but clicking it does apprently nothing. 

I am obviously missing a step somewhere, would someone kindly point me in the direction?


----------



## gikigill

networkn said:


> So I heard about Sonarworks and on Black Friday got a deal and purchased it. Didn't get a lot of time to evaluate it, but I think I am doing something wrong.
> 
> There seems to be zero difference in sound between it on and off? I have specified the headphones HD800S, and the output to my BiFrost via USB, then using the big power button, but clicking it does apprently nothing.
> 
> I am obviously missing a step somewhere, would someone kindly point me in the direction?



You need to tweak around with the settings and make sure the profile has been activated correctly. The software does allow some major changes to the sound once you get the hang of it.


----------



## kumar402

networkn said:


> So I heard about Sonarworks and on Black Friday got a deal and purchased it. Didn't get a lot of time to evaluate it, but I think I am doing something wrong.
> 
> There seems to be zero difference in sound between it on and off? I have specified the headphones HD800S, and the output to my BiFrost via USB, then using the big power button, but clicking it does apprently nothing.
> 
> I am obviously missing a step somewhere, would someone kindly point me in the direction?


You have to select Sonarworks as your output device in Audio settings of your laptop OS


----------



## JazzArtist123

Wanted to share my thoughts on Sonarworks Reference 4, as I've been using it for several months now. I have to say I'm really impressed with how well it works overall and I'm also impressed with their support staff when it comes to quickly resolving any set-up/install issues you might have. I've found that using the Linear Phase setting on each profile sounds best to me and I don't notice any pre-ringing effects. For me, this software improves the Sennheiser HD 600 and HD 6XX (I use the HD 650 calibration profile for my 6XX as it sounds best to me); it improves the AKG K712 Pro, the Superlux HD 668B; and, most fun of all to me, it improves my Beyerdynamic DT 880 Black Special Edition 600-Ω headphones. They don't have a profile for the DT 880 600-Ω, but using the Beyerdynamic DT 880 Edition 250-Ω profile works fantastic. I never liked the recessed midrange of the DT 880, so for me, this EQ software worked wonders on the DT 880.

When you use this software, any differences between the HD 600 and the HD 6XX/650 vanish, they basically become the same headphone. The software isn’t quite able to improve the AKG K712 Pro to the levels that it can improve the 600/650/6XX/880, and the Superlux HD 668B isn’t improved as much as the AKG K712 Pro gets improved, but there are still improvements with all these headphones.

The one downside I’ve noticed is that occasionally, there will be a random pop or click noise that occurs which I know is not coming from any of my sources/recordings, and it is more likely to happen if I am jumping around in my music selection.  So, there are still some improvements Sonarworks can make to their software to remove those clicks, but most of the time, those clicks are nowhere to be heard. I thoroughly enjoy using it. If you wait for a holiday, the Reference 4 Headphone Edition may go on sale again.

Cheers!


----------



## Ohman

JazzArtist123 said:


> Wanted to share my thoughts on Sonarworks Reference 4, as I've been using it for several months now. I have to say I'm really impressed with how well it works overall and I'm also impressed with their support staff when it comes to quickly resolving any set-up/install issues you might have. I've found that using the Linear Phase setting on each profile sounds best to me and I don't notice any pre-ringing effects. For me, this software improves the Sennheiser HD 600 and HD 6XX (I use the HD 650 calibration profile for my 6XX as it sounds best to me); it improves the AKG K712 Pro, the Superlux HD 668B; and, most fun of all to me, it improves my Beyerdynamic DT 880 Black Special Edition 600-Ω headphones. They don't have a profile for the DT 880 600-Ω, but using the Beyerdynamic DT 880 Edition 250-Ω profile works fantastic. I never liked the recessed midrange of the DT 880, so for me, this EQ software worked wonders on the DT 880.
> 
> When you use this software, any differences between the HD 600 and the HD 6XX/650 vanish, they basically become the same headphone. The software isn’t quite able to improve the AKG K712 Pro to the levels that it can improve the 600/650/6XX/880, and the Superlux HD 668B isn’t improved as much as the AKG K712 Pro gets improved, but there are still improvements with all these headphones.
> 
> ...



One way of getting rid of pops and other artefacts is to increase the buffer's values in audio settings. Obviously more buffer means more latency but the difference is too small to be noticed.


----------



## TheSonicTruth (Jan 17, 2021)

I've gotten reasonably good results with this app on my devices:

https://appadvice.com/app/equalizer/321267949 

Say I'm attempting to correct for the Beyer DT880 pro, attached. 

I'll go into the Audioforge Equalizer App(7 parametric bands), and set for the five most eggregious frequencies, and set Q(bandwidth) for narrower(3.0 or higher).  Then I apply opposite positive or (usually)negative gain to those peaks or dips.  Finally, I gradually widen the Q(lower values, 2, 1.0), until the curve in the app nearly resembles an inverse of  the curve, for example, attached.  Then I save the curve, of course "Correction 01 - BEYER DT880-250" or some such.


----------



## Ohman

JazzArtist123 said:


> Wanted to share my thoughts on Sonarworks Reference 4, for me, this software improves the Sennheiser HD 600 and HD 6XX




In my case Ref 4 worked miracles for two of my phones, the Focal Elear and the more modest Senn Momentum HD1 on-ear. The Elear in particular went from "meh" to "wow!" the very minute I used it with this software .Gone are the recessed mids, wonky dynamics and even the phase shifts that occurred with a few specific songs to the point of causing the phones to clip.. I also have the Clear I had bought to replace the disdained Elear and I swear, the Elear now sounds better than the Clear. For phones that are already fairly neutral (like Clear and Sundara) Ref 4 doesn't have much of an effect since its role is to flatten the curve. In fact it it doesn't have a preset for the Sundara since there is very little to "calibrate" on an already neutral-tuned can. Still, the "calibrated" Elear is now my daily driver and the Clear has been relegated to back-up status with Sundara in-between. Don't get me wrong, the Clear is one heck of a nice-sounding phone, but now the Elear sounds better. I think this is due to the Clear having a slightly forward midrange while the Elear had more room to work with and tweak its solid potential. Whatever it is they've done with it, they hit the bull's eye.


----------



## Roll

The All-New Reference Coming Soon! 
Tune in on March 9th 9AM (PST).

SoundID Reference launch
We've started the countdown to when the product is officially released. The free launch event will be digital, like most events nowadays, and will include a variety of speakers, educators and professionals. Check out the whole program (and sign up to be notified) here:

https://event.sonarworks.com/


----------



## Roll

Time to upgrade from Reference 4 to SoundID

Upgrade for Headphones is $49 / €49, for Speakers & Headphones $119 / €119.

The latest version introduces 2 major updates - Custom Target and Translation Check features along with improved drivers for Windows users offering near 0 latency. Additional tooltips and user interface improvements are now making creator’s workflow more streamlined.


----------



## groovyd (Mar 10, 2021)

Wait are you saying Ref 4 doesn't upgrade to Ref 5 or that we need to pay to continue to get updates?  What is SoundId?  Isn't that the canned correction app for mobile?

Video answered some of the questions but if I don't need custom curves what does this get me on a mac besides a new UI?  Better sound quality?  Lower latency?  Phase correction? Are there changes to the measurement app? Does it include universal/M1 mac plugins? Do all my custom headphone profiles and speaker profiles transfer over?  Will re-measuring my speakers improve anything?


----------



## Roll

I am just a user.
From what I gather, there is no Reference 5. "A new Reference 4 update next week. No major features, but some bugs have been fixed."But all their resources will be with SoundID which is at version 5.0.0.419 and their account system and their website

Not sure about the name SoundId. I do know that I had to remove the True Fi and then the SoundId (the version that was to replace True Fi) off my computer before I had this new SoundID to work. I assume that the beta mobile will have to change her name due to confusion?

One can have Reference 4 and the new SoundId on the computer but - u need turn off the option "Launch at startup" on one of the software

They mention lower latency due to SoundId drivers?
No changes to the measurement app for now. 
They will add more features later on from what was mentioned. Yes re custom transfer. U just need to add the code to the new app

How to upgrade Reference 4 and Reference 3 to SoundID Reference

https://soundid-reference.zendesk.c...erence-4-and-Reference-3-to-SoundID-Reference


----------



## Roll

From Facebook:

Owning your mistakes and correcting for them is the correct thing to do, right? Yesterday we were stoked to launch SoundID Reference with quite a few new features based on our user community requests. Today the feedback from you - our existing user community overwhelmingly says that although you like the new SoundID Reference, the upgrade price is out of reach for many of you and more over, some of you don’t think that it’s a fair price from an existing user's perspective. 

It’s important for us to make sure that you feel the price for something that we build is right and you see that you are able and willing to invest in it. Because at the end of the day we believe in building our products that make your life as music creators easier.

So with this I want to let you know that to make the upgrade path from Reference 3 & 4 to SoundID Reference available to more of you, we are reducing the price of the upgrade from 119 to $89 / €89 for the full edition and from 49 to $39 / €39 for the headphone edition.

That said I know some of you will still say the price is too high and it needs to be lower still. As much as we’d like to sell the upgrade for some super low price plus include a lifetime of support and updates with that, it would be irresponsible from us as a company. In order to build and deliver high-quality features, we need to plan and budget for the effort that we know it takes.

So hopefully you will see this correction from our side as a genuine move from our side to take corrective action on a miscalculation from our side. Rest assured that we’ll continue our best effort to improve and maintain the product up to a high standard.


----------



## groovyd (Mar 12, 2021)

Upgraded and managed to hash through the re-setyup of just about everything I have in my DAP etc.  For me at least it did not carry over any of my custom profiles headphones or speakers.  It uses a different project folder now which was empty.  Had to copy paste all my custom projects over from Ref4 but they do seem to load.  One bug I found already is if you enable listening spot compensation it still says 'disabled' in the plugin interface.  Second bug is when using Mixed Filter plugin Latency values to not update properly.  But of small bugs seem more like a regression from Ref4.  Not sure about actual sound differences pretty hard to tell but most of the default settings were not what I had used previously so...  In my mind this affords me nothing new really except continued support.  Changing the name to SoundID makes no sense instead of just calling it Ref5.  Are they going to change the name in every future version just to make it feel like you are getting something different for the purchase?  Really wish they just kept it in the same naming space.

I would appreciate having Dark Mode in the Plugin UI please.


----------



## ishmaelk

I have a question regarding Sonarworks 4. Maybe someone here will be able to answer it for me. 
I have a bunch of headphones not included in their list, such as the HD630VB or the Nighthawk Carbon. 
If the cans are not on their list of tunings, is there a way to still use it as just parametric eq? 
Thanks.


----------



## jnorris

ishmaelk said:


> I have a question regarding Sonarworks 4. Maybe someone here will be able to answer it for me.
> I have a bunch of headphones not included in their list, such as the HD630VB or the Nighthawk Carbon.
> If the cans are not on their list of tunings, is there a way to still use it as just parametric eq?
> Thanks.



No, there isn't.  You can tilt up or down on the bass and treble but that's about it.  What I did was try and find a headphone setting that closely approximated the sound signature of my headphones and used that.  Ultimately, though, that was the reason that I walked away from Sonarworks and started using EqualizerAPO and HeSuVi which did provide a really extensive parametric equalizer.  Fast forward to today and I don't use any software and rely on a Schiit Loki to touch up the EQ on those headphones that need it.


----------



## ishmaelk

jnorris said:


> No, there isn't.  You can tilt up or down on the bass and treble but that's about it.  What I did was try and find a headphone setting that closely approximated the sound signature of my headphones and used that.  Ultimately, though, that was the reason that I walked away from Sonarworks and started using EqualizerAPO and HeSuVi which did provide a really extensive parametric equalizer.  Fast forward to today and I don't use any software and rely on a Schiit Loki to touch up the EQ on those headphones that need it.


I use mac, which complicates things a lot.
I have a couple of days to decide if I purchase Sonarworks or not, but it just feel silly to get a license to apply eq to only a couple of headphones. For the same price I may get a Loki and be able to use it when I don't play music from my computer. 
Thanks!


----------



## Steven31

Well, downloaded the trial version of Sonarworks SoundID Reference tonight, and all I can say is I think I have found my endgame as regards what can be achieved with computer audio. Definitely going to be buying the full version. Gets a 10 out of 10 rating from me! I like!!


----------



## Shooter41 (Oct 17, 2021)

IMO, Sonarworks is dropping the ball on supporting their software. There are too many current and popular headphone models that still have no profile available. I requested one back when the Clear Mg's were first released, many months ago, and still nothing. I've been using the one for the OG Clears. I'll admit that it actually sounds pretty great, but there are obvious differences between the two models so there is something being left on the table. There is also no profile available for the newer 2021 version of the LCD-X's, which have also been out for a while. The Denon 9200's have become quite popular and are frequently hard to find because of it, yet there are NO Denon profiles available. The software is only good if there is a profile available for your headphones so cranking those profiles out should be job #1. If no one at Sonarworks has set up a program with headphone makers to provide a pair (or just loan a pair) of their current models to them then that is a major failing. It benefits the makers as much as it does Sonarworks and it shouldn't be tough to convince them of that. I'm a Roon user and it looks like I'm about to start using it's built-in PEQ abilities or, possibly, trying an LCD-X and using the built-in EQ settings that Roon/Audeze have partnered up to offer (which is a pretty brilliant idea on both their parts). I was a huge believer in Sonarworks software but at this rate they're losing me quickly and I would definitely be reluctant to spend any more money with them.


----------



## jnorris

I used to be a staunch supporter of Sonarworks and paid for both True-Fi and Reference 4.  My allegiance faltered when I saw that they were less interested in supporting new and different headphones and more interested in selling software/headphone sets and putting out bogus articles that promoted their software.  The final straw was when I found EqualizerAPO and HeViSu.  Here was a product that worked well, was totally free, and had over 700 built-in headphone profiles, and allowed you to build your own profiles that were as precise and detailed as you could make them.  I used that for a while, and when I saw that Sonarworks shifted to the subscription based SoundID, I deleted the Reference 4 stuff completely.  As of now, I don't use EqualizerAPO anymore, having purchased a Schiit Loki, and, full circle, I got a set of Hifiman Sundara, which don't need EQ at all!


----------



## Shooter41

jnorris said:


> .  The final straw was when I found EqualizerAPO and HeViSu.  Here was a product that worked well, was totally free, and had over 700 built-in headphone profiles, and allowed you to build your own profiles that were as precise and detailed as you could make them.



Sounds great, unfortunately not for those of us on a Mac...


----------



## jnorris

Very true, but the Loki does...as does the Sundara.


----------



## Shooter41

jnorris said:


> Very true, but the Loki does...as does the Sundara.


Not interested in either of those


----------



## jnorris

OK, fair enough.


----------



## White Noise

Maybe this should go in a different thread, but I'll go here for now. I've been shopping for headphone correction software for a while. I use a pair of LCD-X for mixing/mastering my music and occasionally doing masters for friends. I noticed that my mixes weren't translating as well as I'd liked as my music style changed over the last year, so I looked into better metering and headphone correction and landed at a handful of finalists

1. Sonarworks - This was the first one that I was aware of. I've seen demos where I don't hear any difference, demos where it makes a huge change but feels like a lateral move in terms of monitoring ability, and demos where it makes a huge positive impact. In my demoing of it, and hearing from others who use it in headphones only (IE not for speaker/room correction where I DO see benefits) they go way too hard with the EQ. I couldn't find anyone who uses the headphone correction at more than 30-50%. I just used the online demo before deciding that it was too drastic a change for me to trust my judgement making new mixes, and it didn't address stereo imaging at all (which is one of the issues I have working in headphones). For those who have mentioned that Sonarworks isn't keeping up with new headphone profiles, I did notice they offered a service where you can send in your headphones and they will measure them and create a calibration for your specific unit. I only remember thinking they were charging a lot for me to ship my headphones to Europe and be without them for 6 weeks and hope that nothing got delayed or damaged in shipping. Not a good deal, but it could be why they're slow to add new units right now. I think there are better players for headphone correction, but for room correction I'd still consider them.

2. Dsoniq Realphones - I think this one launched either late in 2020 or early 2021. It prices around the same as the headphone only version of Sonarworks if you go with the 3 headphone package (which lets you choose 3 headphone profiles to go with the software). This also includes room/monitoring simulation in a few studios. This is another one where the demos definitely sound different but not really better, and it could be a helpful lens to check mixes through, but I wouldn't see myself running everything through this one. Big benefit over Sonarworks from the mixing perspective is that the room/speaker simulation will let you check a mix from a lot of different "angles", so to speak.

3. Slate Digital VSX - I hear very good things about this correction software, however it's only sold with their own headphones (which I suppose is gives them more control). Similar to Dsoniq, you can also have room/speaker simulation.

4. Acustica Audio Sienna - This one is expensive. I think almost $200 when it's not on sale (thankfully I caught a sale for cyber monday). And they make things needlessly complicated by having basic and pro versions included of both a headphone EQ correction and a room simulation (base version has 3 studios plus an anechoic chamber with a few speaker configurations in each with extra rooms/speakers available for about $70 as add-on packs that add 3-4 new rooms each). And to install even the basic system-wide utility you have to install the VST3 versions of all the other stuff first, and you have to manually route your audio through a new audio output called "Sienna System Wide Virtual Device" (and then select your actual audio output  within the options menu of the software). I was able to get it figured out in an hour only because I regularly beta-test music software that doesn't have manuals, etc. This is not a consumer-friendly plug and play system.

BUT, if your headphones are on the list, this is a great sounding room simulation and headphone correction software. I just pulled up a room and speakers I liked, and then turned on correction for my headphones. I only have the base rooms, and I landed quickly on using the Spitfire mastering studio with a pair of 5-figure speakers in the room, and this is working wonders for both my headphones' frequency response and my perception of space within a mix. The software defaults at a reasonable 30% correction curve, which I lowered to about 25%, and I adjusted the output gain down by about 2DB to compensate for loudness changes so I can A/B accurately with the software off and on. I saved that preset and it loads with the software now. The soundstage is massively bigger AND more precise, the low end is more defined, the midrange and top end are both much clearer. I got this for mixing, but I do all my listening with Sienna strapped across my PC's outputs now. I was convinced to give it a try by this SOS article.

https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/acustica-audio-sienna


----------



## waxler

ishmaelk said:


> I have a question regarding Sonarworks 4. Maybe someone here will be able to answer it for me.
> I have a bunch of headphones not included in their list, such as the HD630VB or the Nighthawk Carbon.
> If the cans are not on their list of tunings, is there a way to still use it as just parametric eq?
> Thanks.


Another parametric EQ would probably be better for that use. But if your headphones aren't on the list, you could use some other headphone's profile that has a similar frequency response. Not ideal, but it should improve the sound nonetheless.


----------



## lmf22 (Mar 16, 2022)

I just got the Sonarworks SoundID Reference trial and wanted to use it with JRiver, but I can't figure out how to install the VST plugin.

I ran the file ReferenceVST3Win64.msi that came with the installation. Then went into Jriver DSP Studio, clicked on Manage Plug-ins --> Add JRiver VST or Winamp Plugin. But where do I find the Sonarworks VST? I'm using Windows 10, 64bit.

EDIT: Solved. I found the plug-in in the folder C:\Program Files\Common Files\VST3


----------



## foreverzer0 (Mar 16, 2022)

Can anyone that has sound ID reference try this and see if it’s an improvement across the board as I have?

Use custom eq starting with neutral, add a low shelf at 100hz +0.5db. I also prefer mixed filter, but this might be a separate thing.

I didn’t think an eq setting so subtle could provide such a difference. Subjectively to me sounds like it removes a digital hardness to the sound, almost like changing to a hybrid preamp. Wanted to validate this revelation against others to see if this super subtle eq change is more profound for me than others. I’ve tested this against both speakers and multiple headphones.


----------



## Ham Sandwich

lmf22 said:


> I just got the Sonarworks SoundID Reference trial and wanted to use it with JRiver, but I can't figure out how to install the VST plugin.
> 
> I ran the file ReferenceVST3Win64.msi that came with the installation. Then went into Jriver DSP Studio, clicked on Manage Plug-ins --> Add JRiver VST or Winamp Plugin. But where do I find the Sonarworks VST? I'm using Windows 10, 64bit.
> 
> EDIT: Solved. I found the plug-in in the folder C:\Program Files\Common Files\VST3



JRiver can have some issues hosting some VST3 plugins. I'm not sure if the current Sonarworks plugin will work directly in JRiver.

If the Sonarworks plugin doesn't work you can use DDMF Metaplugin to host the Sonarworks VST3. Then run the DDMF plugin in JRiver. I have to do that with the older version of Sonarworks. It's a roundabout way of hosting the VST3, but it may work.


----------



## lmf22

Ham Sandwich said:


> JRiver can have some issues hosting some VST3 plugins. I'm not sure if the current Sonarworks plugin will work directly in JRiver.
> 
> If the Sonarworks plugin doesn't work you can use DDMF Metaplugin to host the Sonarworks VST3. Then run the DDMF plugin in JRiver. I have to do that with the older version of Sonarworks. It's a roundabout way of hosting the VST3, but it may work.


Thank you for the advice. 

It's working fine so far. I've played a few albums of various sampling rates, and watched a few 1080p TV shows. Not glitches so far. 

Loving this software! I'm using it for music, TV, and movies. I started with the HD800S flat target, and then added a low shelf (105 Hz, +5 dB), high shelf (10,000 Hz, -1 dB), and a sprinkle of warmth (200 Hz, +1 dB, Q 0.3).


----------



## White Noise

foreverzer0 said:


> Can anyone that has sound ID reference try this and see if it’s an improvement across the board as I have?
> 
> Use custom eq starting with neutral, add a low shelf at 100hz +0.5db. I also prefer mixed filter, but this might be a separate thing.
> 
> I didn’t think an eq setting so subtle could provide such a difference. Subjectively to me sounds like it removes a digital hardness to the sound, almost like changing to a hybrid preamp. Wanted to validate this revelation against others to see if this super subtle eq change is more profound for me than others. I’ve tested this against both speakers and multiple headphones.


That's totally possible. In mastering I make moves around that region and about that level (up or down) all the time. My software lets me go to values as low as +/-.1 db and I use that all the time. It all adds up.


----------



## eelpout

I'm kind of new to Sonarworks' SoundID Reference and just discovered the Limits curve option in the graph... I always wondered why the calibrations took a huge dip starting around 40 Hz.  I listen to a lot of organ and orchestral music and always found this heavy-handed bass shelf to be annoying. I find this a bit odd to be their standard practice as if one uses their Safe Headroom option, that should be enough to protect the headphones.

Anyway, as far as I can tell, one can't adjust this on one's own, the Limit Controls don't appear for their supplied headphone calibrations and the profiles files are not end user editable that I can see.

I'm looking for no-limits profiles for the AKG K702 and Massdrop 6xx. Anyone have these? I'll ask Sonarworks myself of course to see if they'll supply them.


----------



## Shooter41

eelpout said:


> I'm kind of new to Sonarworks' SoundID Reference and just discovered the Limits curve option in the graph... I always wondered why the calibrations took a huge dip starting around 40 Hz.  I listen to a lot of organ and orchestral music and always found this heavy-handed bass shelf to be annoying. I find this a bit odd to be their standard practice as if one uses their Safe Headroom option, that should be enough to protect the headphones.
> 
> Anyway, as far as I can tell, one can't adjust this on one's own, the Limit Controls don't appear for their supplied headphone calibrations and the profiles files are not end user editable that I can see.
> 
> I'm looking for no-limits profiles for the AKG K702 and Massdrop 6xx. Anyone have these? I'll ask Sonarworks myself of course to see if they'll supply them.


Seems to me that you might be ready to graduate to actual Eq. Convolution if that's at all possible for you but at least parametric. There are profiles available for almost any headphone out there based on actual measurements, just like Sonarworks products, but they go down to 20Hz (at least all the ones I've seen do). 

If you're a Roon user this is super easy to do, if not and you need something to push you off the fence into Roonland, this might do it. I started with Sonarworks and grew frustrated with their lack of support for new headphones so I started to look elsewhere. Becoming a Roon user was actually unrelated for me, I was sold on the user experience without even taking DSP abilities into account. But there are still ways to do it even without Roon. 

If you do parametric you can tweak it to your heart's content, even make as many profiles as you want for different types of music. Not so much the case with convolution but most people find that a proper convolution filter is so good that tweaking isn't necessary. I certainly did.


----------



## eelpout

Shooter41 said:


> Seems to me that you might be ready to graduate to actual Eq. Convolution if that's at all possible for you but at least parametric. There are profiles available for almost any headphone out there based on actual measurements, just like Sonarworks products, but they go down to 20Hz (at least all the ones I've seen do).
> 
> If you're a Roon user this is super easy to do, if not and you need something to push you off the fence into Roonland, this might do it. I started with Sonarworks and grew frustrated with their lack of support for new headphones so I started to look elsewhere. Becoming a Roon user was actually unrelated for me, I was sold on the user experience without even taking DSP abilities into account. But there are still ways to do it even without Roon.
> 
> If you do parametric you can tweak it to your heart's content, even make as many profiles as you want for different types of music. Not so much the case with convolution but most people find that a proper convolution filter is so good that tweaking isn't necessary. I certainly did.



I already use AutoEQ and Voxengo's Prime plugins to do custom curves (within Tidal on the Mac). And then Equalizer APO when I'm using Windows.  In fact I made a low shelf to counteract the Sonarworks limits issue and that's working OK. I just like to use Sonarworks curves when I'm feeling lazy.  I also use Toneboosters Morphit on occasion too.

Thanks for the reply!


----------



## eelpout

Huh, well Sonarworks replied and said straight up they won't give me a raw "no-limits" headphone curve for their "average" profiles. I have to do a custom calibration for my own headphones and then they'll gladly oblige with a raw curve.  

I guess it's back to Toneboosters Morphit or AutoEQ.


----------

